# Terrorist Murder In Jerusalem Synagogue



## MJB12741 (Nov 18, 2014)

Once again Israel got what Israel deserved for their treatment of Palestinians with peace offerings, a security fence & land concessions so the Palestinians can remain in Israel.  When will Israel ever learn to treat the Palestinians like their own Arab brothers do in surrounding Arab countries?

Prayer massacre Three Americans among four rabbis killed as Palestinian militants storm Jerusalem synagogue - AOL.com


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## Penelope (Nov 18, 2014)

I don't believe in any violence, but we have lots of it here, but it feels worst when it hits home doesn't it. I guess some Jews are still praying and worship who was it Goldstein, who did the massacre on the Pals while they were worshipping.

I see they
The family of the men said Israeli forces raided their homes following the attack and detained 12 family members, including Abu Jamal's wife, mother, and brothers Munther, Jamal, Imade, Murad, and Muawiya.

Good thing that doesn't happen in the states yet of course members of the families are questioned,

Yes Israel has itself to thank to push people to such limits.


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## Kondor3 (Nov 18, 2014)

Time to teach a terrible and frightful lesson as retaliation against those who perpetrated this outrage.

Attack 1 synagogue?

Flatten ten mosques in Rump Palestine.

Kill 4 rabbis?

Kill 40 Hamas leaders in Rump Palestine.

A 10-to-1 kill-ratio, to begin with.

If that isn't enough, increase the ratio.

As often as it takes.

Until the message finally gets through those thick Neanderthal skulls in Rump Palestine.


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## MJB12741 (Nov 18, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> Time to teach a terrible and frightful lesson as retaliation against those who perpetrated this outrage.



The best part will be to see the Palestinians & their terrorist supporters bitch about how many more Palestinians wind up dead than Israeli's when Israel retaliates.  Not too bright those Pali's & their supporters, are they?


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## Coyote (Nov 18, 2014)

MJB12741 said:


> Once again Israel got what Israel deserved for their treatment of Palestinians with peace offerings, a security fence & land concessions so the Palestinians can remain in Israel.  When will Israel ever learn to treat the Palestinians like their own Arab brothers do in surrounding Arab countries?
> 
> Prayer massacre Three Americans among four rabbis killed as Palestinian militants storm Jerusalem synagogue - AOL.com




That's a horrible thing to happen...there's no excuse for killing people like that. I was glad to see Abbas denounce it. 

Why do you feel the need to politicize it like that?


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## Coyote (Nov 18, 2014)

Penelope said:


> I don't believe in any violence, but we have lots of it here, but it feels worst when it hits home doesn't it. I guess some Jews are still praying and worship who was it Goldstein, who did the massacre on the Pals while they were worshipping.
> 
> I see they
> The family of the men said Israeli forces raided their homes following the attack and detained 12 family members, including Abu Jamal's wife, mother, and brothers Munther, Jamal, Imade, Murad, and Muawiya.
> ...



In the end - people are in control of their own actions.  They can choose to attack unarmed innocents or they can attack other targets.  When they do something like this - it doesn't help their cause at all.

And yes, Goldstein is still worshipped and made excuses for in some areas, particularly by settlers - but it's not mainstream.


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## Kondor3 (Nov 18, 2014)

Coyote said:


> ...Why do you feel the need to politicize it like that?


For the very same reason that pro-Palestinian propaganda shills endlessly politicize actions by Israel.

Why do _they_ feel the need to politicize such actions?

Pot...kettle... no mystery there.


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## Coyote (Nov 18, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> Time to teach a terrible and frightful lesson as retaliation against those who perpetrated this outrage.
> 
> Attack 1 synagogue?
> 
> ...




Sure, just kill more innocent people, that's the solution.  Funny though - that's what they've been doing for 50 years now...hasn't worked very well.


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## Kondor3 (Nov 18, 2014)

Coyote said:


> Sure, just kill more innocent people, that's the solution.  Funny though - that's what they've been doing for 50 years now...hasn't worked very well.


Somehow, I don't think that lying down and taking it, without retaliating, is an option.

Don't want to suffer highly disproportionate casualties?

Don't be stupid enough to poke Colossus in the toe with a twig.

Stop poking Colossus and the casualties stop.

This is not rocket science.


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## Beelzebub (Nov 18, 2014)

Coyote said:


> Sure, just kill more innocent people, that's the solution.  Funny though - that's what they've been doing for 50 years now...hasn't worked very well.



Thing is, the Israeli powers are really not very bothered by this.  Not by anyone dying on any side, however innocent.
Like the NRA in the US, their only question is:

"How can use use this to forward our agenda?"

In that respect, if Zionist Central could arrange to have a Synagogue attack every week, they would, as they could make use of every one.


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## Coyote (Nov 18, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Sure, just kill more innocent people, that's the solution.  Funny though - that's what they've been doing for 50 years now...hasn't worked very well.
> ...



Who even said that was an option?

You handle it within the law: arrest those responsible. Put them on trial.  Figure out how to prevent it from happening again.



> Don't want to suffer highly disproportionate casualties?
> 
> Don't be stupid enough to poke Colossus in the toe with a twig.
> 
> ...



Sure.  But that strategy has been failing for over half a century.

Might be time to rethink it.


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## Kondor3 (Nov 18, 2014)

Coyote said:


> ...Sure. But that strategy has been failing for over half a century. Might be time to rethink it.


Under the circumstances, there is no other viable and effective option.

Nothing left to do but to raise the stakes and to begin responding so devastatingly disproportionately as to make The Enemy come to the realization that they will be hurt _vastly_ more than any hurt that they can inflict by initiating such actions - so as to make the people of Rump Palestine come to the realization that they have no choice but to rein-in their own crazies, or continue to suffer such unstoppable and disproportionate losses.

That is how wars are won, and this is, indeed, a war... let us all be clear about that.


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## Beelzebub (Nov 18, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > ...Sure. But that strategy has been failing for over half a century. Might be time to rethink it.
> ...



No.
Its a military occupation, with resistance.
They never work.  Ask the Germans.  Or the Turks.  Or the Americans.  Or the British.

You have a wet dream of committing genocide on Israel's enemies Kondor.  Even that level of Israeli war crime would not work, as you would just create more and more powerful enemies.

You are wrong.  You need to stop thinking in comic-book terms Kondor.


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## Kondor3 (Nov 18, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> Kondor3 said:
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> > Coyote said:
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Sit down, Junior... you've had your ass kicked enough for one morning.

Israel Occupation Police breaking the law with children Page 3 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum


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## Beelzebub (Nov 18, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> Beelzebub said:
> 
> 
> > No. Its a military occupation, with resistance. They never work.  Ask the Germans.  Or the Turks.  Or the Americans.  Or the British. You have a wet dream of committing genocide on Israel's enemies Kondor.  Even that level of Israeli war crime would not work, as you would just create more and more powerful enemies. You are wrong.  You need to stop thinking in comic-book terms Kondor.
> ...



You are off topic again Kondor.


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## Coyote (Nov 18, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > ...Sure. But that strategy has been failing for over half a century. Might be time to rethink it.
> ...



So....you continue a failed strategy hoping that next time the results will be different.

You do know what the definition of insanity is?  Doing the same thing over and over thinking that the result will somehow be different.

If you get too brutal on non-combatants, especially children, the strategy backfires and people become more determined and have nothing left to lose.


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## RoccoR (Nov 18, 2014)

Coyote,  et al,

I thought it was interesting that:

"Hamas, the militant Palestinian group that runs the Gaza Strip."
Gazans celebrate Israel condemns Jerusalem synagogue attack

"Militant group the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) has claimed responsibility for the deadly attack on a Jerusalem synagogue. (International Business Times, November 18, 2014)
"The Front {PFLP} saluted the escalating heroic operations against Israeli soldiers and settlers in occupied Palestine, especially in the West Bank and Jerusalem, noting that this is an expected response to the crimes of the occupation and that resistance is the most effective method to defend our people against the systematic Zionist war on their existence."  (FightBackNews Tuesday November 18, 2014)




Coyote said:


> MJB12741 said:
> 
> 
> > Once again Israel got what Israel deserved for their treatment of Palestinians with peace offerings, a security fence & land concessions so the Palestinians can remain in Israel.  When will Israel ever learn to treat the Palestinians like their own Arab brothers do in surrounding Arab countries?
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

As I said previously (Posting #651: What do normal people think of Palestinians), many revolutionaries, terrorists, guerrillas, and insurgents _(anti-government forces in general)_ attempt to masquerade as freedom fighters.  But it is fairly clear that this is not a freedom fighting action.  This is an act by cowards attacking the unarmed.  Normally one would ask what pride there is in this?  But HAMAS and the Abu Ali Mustafa Brigade have answered this for us.




​Most Respectfully,
R


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## Lipush (Nov 18, 2014)

Coyote said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > I don't believe in any violence, but we have lots of it here, but it feels worst when it hits home doesn't it. I guess some Jews are still praying and worship who was it Goldstein, who did the massacre on the Pals while they were worshipping.
> ...



Thank you for pointing that tiny fact out


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## Kondor3 (Nov 18, 2014)

Coyote said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
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That all depends on how you define 'failed strategy'.

If, by that, you mean that retaliation by the IDF, has failed to stop all violence, then, you are, indeed, correct.

If, by that, we view such retaliation, as a measure to contain the savages and to minimize their sorties and their effectiveness, then, you are, indeed, incorrect.

I take the latter view.



> ...You do know what the definition of insanity is?  Doing the same thing over and over thinking that the result will somehow be different...


Adequately covered by tucking under the umbrella of the latter definition.



> ...If you get too brutal on non-combatants, especially children, the strategy backfires and people become more determined and have nothing left to lose.


Nobody (that I know) is advocating for brutality against children in this context.

However, highly disproportionate retaliation is fast becoming the only practical remedy for the foolhardiness of Hamas and their fellow travelers.

Hamas and related instigating violence is not going to stop until the residents of Rump Palestine come to the realization that they cannot win and that there is less danger to them in reining-in Hamas et al themselves than to continue suffering such disproportionate casualties.

This is a dirty and godless, soul-less business - war always is - so, the harsher the punishment for such terrorist actions, the sooner the war will end.

What was that old line about being cruel, to be kind?

Bullshit, usually, but oftentimes containing a modicum of truth, at the same time.

The residents of Rump Palestine know how to stop this... what is needed now is to complete the job of convincing them that they need to act upon that knowledge.

The near-collapse of Hamas during Gaza War II and their sudden caving-in to a dual control alongside Fatah is proof that the concept works.


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## montelatici (Nov 18, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> Coyote,  et al,
> 
> I thought it was interesting that:
> 
> ...




The attackers are considered heroes today, and the attack brought the whites closer to giving in to ANC demands. Oliver Tambo, of who there are statues all over South Africa and after whom the Johannesburg International Airport is named, stated that it was a legitimate target.   Why do you hold the Palestinians, as an occupied people trying to free themselves from Jew rule, to a different code than the non-whites in South Africa.  Is it some sort of irrational hate for Arabs?

"May 20,1983

*Car bomb in South Africa kills 16
*
At least 16 people have been killed and more than 130 people injured in a car bomb explosion in South Africa's capital city, Pretoria.
He said the explosion was the "biggest and ugliest" terrorist incident since anti-government violence began in South Africa 20 years ago.

He added: "Most of the victims were civilians..."

General Magnus Malan, South African's defence minister, described the explosion as a "cowardly, criminal deed in the Communist war being raged against South Africa".

He said more than 40,000 civilians had died as a result of terrorism in the past five years in Africa and 83,000 armed men had died.

*Oliver Tambo, who is the organisation's acting president while its senior figure, Nelson Mandela, is in prison, said the Nedbank Square building was a legitimate target.*.."


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## Beelzebub (Nov 18, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> ... The near-collapse of Hamas during Gaza War II and their sudden caving-in to a dual control alongside Fatah is proof that the concept works.



You do know that Hamas and Fatah had agreed to unite, just before Israel attacked Gaza last time, don't you?
Some speculate that that was part of the calculation of Israel in staging the attack.  As Israel doesn't want them to unite.


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## Coyote (Nov 18, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> Coyote,  et al,
> 
> I thought it was interesting that:
> 
> ...




When "freedom fighters" target innocents they are no different than terrorists.  Most groups we call freedom fighters are little more than white-washed terrorists who were victorious.  If we approve of their cause, we celebrate them.  We don't approve of their cause, we denigrate them.  Most of the time, it's a dishonest charade that conveniently overlooks spilled blood.

It doesn't take a "will of steel" to murder people in their place of worship.  It just takes hate.


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## Kondor3 (Nov 18, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > ... The near-collapse of Hamas during Gaza War II and their sudden caving-in to a dual control alongside Fatah is proof that the concept works.
> ...


Yep.

Gaza War II accelerated the adoption of that agreement, too.



> ...Some speculate that that was part of the calculation of Israel in staging the attack.  As Israel doesn't want them to unite.


Could be... could be.


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## RoccoR (Nov 18, 2014)

Coyote, _et al,_

In this context I have to agree.



Coyote said:


> When "freedom fighters" target innocents they are no different than terrorists.  Most groups we call freedom fighters are little more than white-washed terrorists who were victorious.  If we approve of their cause, we celebrate them.  We don't approve of their cause, we denigrate them.  Most of the time, it's a dishonest charade that conveniently overlooks spilled blood.
> 
> It doesn't take a "will of steel" to murder people in their place of worship.  It just takes hate.


*(COMMENT)*

But this is why _(practical examine)_ the need for containment and quarantine.  No reasonable people in a position of responsibility and trust would want to be responsible for exposing the general public to these savages.  Hence, the need for separation; not because they are Arabs or Muslim, but because they pose a danger.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Coyote (Nov 18, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> Coyote, _et al,_
> 
> In this context I have to agree.
> 
> ...




I disagree that they as an entire people post a danger and should be collectively punished.

Hamas?  Yes.


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## Kondor3 (Nov 18, 2014)

Coyote said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote, _et al,_
> ...


And when the two cannot be practicably separated in connection with security needs?


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## Beelzebub (Nov 18, 2014)

Some interesting stuff on Synagogue security in Jerusalem:

Israelis visiting synagogues in Western Europe for the first time are often astonished by the level of security: private security guards, community volunteers, uniformed police and advanced surveillance systems are the norm. Moreover, in the few Muslim countries with still-functioning Jewish congregations, like Turkey or Tunisia, synagogues operate in fortified compounds.

_Less than two months ago, during Rosh Hashanah, the level of police presence around synagogues in North London, apparently motivated by the rising number of anti-Semitic attacks in the wake of the Gaza conflict, was unprecedented. This has all become standard in parts of the world where synagogues have been terrorist targets by Palestinians and Islamist groups since the 1970s. These security measures seem to have worked. The two deadly attacks on Jewish targets in 2012 in Toulouse, France, and earlier this year in Brussels, Belgium, were on a school and a museum respectively, both with considerably less security than nearby synagogues.

In Israel, however, the scene of a plethora of attacks and suicide bombings over the decades, synagogues have not been protected to the same extent as, say, shopping malls and schools. With the exception of a tiny handful of large, well-financed houses of worship, the thousands of small and medium-sized and even big neighborhood synagogues remain wide open. While Israelis are used to having an armed security guard inspect them when entering nearly every supermarket, mall and cinema, there is something jarring to them about restricting entrance to a synagogue. At one point during the Second Intifada, the police suggested that members place one of their own at the door during the High Holy Days, as deterrence, but the practice did not last for long.

Incredible as it may sound, Tuesday morning's terror attack on the Kehilat Bnei Torah synagogue in Jerusalem's Har Nof neighborhood, in which four worshippers and one police officer were killed by Palestinian terrorists from Jabel Mukaber in East Jerusalem, was the first of its kind in living memory on a local synagogue. There was of course the 2008 attack on the Merkaz Harav yeshiva, which technically also served as a synagogue, not far from today's murder scene. In that attack, eight students were murdered.

The exact number of synagogues in Israel is unknown. Unlike many well-appointed Jewish houses of worship in the Diaspora, most in Israel are small and locally-funded, with many situated in bomb shelters and ground-floor apartments, or in halls rented out by schools and community centers. While some have been in existence for decades, new synagogues are established every week as communities grow or split over arcane disputes. There are thousands of synagogues in Jerusalem alone.

In the wake of Tuesday's terror attack in Har Nof, Sephardi Chief Rabbi Yitzhak Yosef issued an edictsaying that prayers must be held only in synagogues with a security guard. However, there is no realistic way that these security measures can be implemented, given the vast amount of synagogues.

It took years and protracted arguments between the various authorities and government departments to secure funding for security guards at all of Israel's thousands of schools, and this massive undertaking is still not complete. Securing all of Israel's synagogues is an impossible task and no congregation is about to give up its location because the chief rabbi, who has a miniscule following, if he has one at all, says so.

No one can say for sure why terrorists had not yet targeted a local synagogue until Tuesday morning's attack. The most plausible reason is that they are less convenient targets than public transport or coffee shops, usually being open just twice a day for an hour or so at a time during morning and afternoon-evening prayers. Also, synagogues afford little cover for terrorists as they would be immediately noticed upon entering. Even in disguise, an attacker who does not know how to conduct himself in a synagogue immediately sticks out like a sore thumb.

In Tuesday morning's attack, one of the terrorists was apparently acquainted with the targeted synagogue as he worked at an adjacent grocery shop. He would have known that at 7 A.M., the synagogue would be crowded, allowing him and his accomplice to quickly move between congregants, hacking away at the worshippers.

Attack on worshipers in synagogue sets deadly precedent - Diplomacy and Defense Israel News Haaretz
_
So Synagogues are soft targets, and likely to remain as soft targets for quite some time.
Peace now, with equality and justice would be a very good idea for all those wishing to worship in Jerusalem / Al Quds.


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## Coyote (Nov 18, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
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I don't  believe they can't.  I strongly suspect the claim that they can't is merely an excuse to move them off their lands.

SK and NK managed.  P and I can do so.


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## toastman (Nov 18, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Sure, just kill more innocent people, that's the solution.  Funny though - that's what they've been doing for 50 years now...hasn't worked very well.
> ...



Pure Weezle Scum


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## Kondor3 (Nov 18, 2014)

Coyote said:


> ...I don't  believe they can't...


And, of course, others hold differently, and, in the case of Israel, act accordingly.



> ...I strongly suspect the claim that they can't is merely an excuse to move them off their lands...


There may be some truth in that observation, but, in truth, the Israelis aren't making excuses for evictions and re-taskings of land - they're just doing it, without the excuses.



> ...SK and NK managed.  P and I can do so.


SK and NK are part of the same ethnic/cultural/heritage mix.

P and I are apples and oranges, so... mebbe not, after all.

I'm not saying that merely to be argumentative.

I'm genuinely convinced that this is now the way of things.

I wish it could be otherwise, but such windows of opportunity are years or decades behind us now.


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## Kondor3 (Nov 18, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> ...So Synagogues are soft targets, and likely to remain as soft targets for quite some time...


Then it is, indeed, time to begin taking-out mosques in Rump Palestine, on at least a 10-to-1 ratio. Your (side's) choice.



> ...Peace now, with equality and justice would be a very good idea for all those wishing to worship in Jerusalem / Al Quds.


Impossible now, quite probably. Only one side or the other will remain on that land. And, somehow, I doubt that it will be the current residents of Rump Palestine.


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## Beelzebub (Nov 18, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> Beelzebub said:
> 
> 
> > ...So Synagogues are soft targets, and likely to remain as soft targets for quite some time...
> ...



I think if Israel is planning to sweep Palestinians out it had better have alerted the US to us its arms production beyond what it has ever done before.
And to alert its industry to be closed to exports.  And most imports.

Israel cannot do to Jerusalem what it did to Gaza, and even in Gaza it only fought to a new stand off.

As I say Kondor.  You need to stop thinking in comic-book terms.


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## Kondor3 (Nov 18, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> Kondor3 said:
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> 
> > Beelzebub said:
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Feel free to continue in your arrogant complacency that such things cannot and will not happen.

Such a mindset will make it far easier to do what needs to be done, and to surprise you(r side) with its advent, when the time comes.

For now, let's see what Bibi has in mind, for a response... he's on CNN, live, as I write this.


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## Beelzebub (Nov 18, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> Beelzebub said:
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> > Kondor3 said:
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They may.
But the consequences for Israel would be devastating.  And despite evidence to the contrary, we can expect the strategists in Israel to know there are things that would destroy them, after an apparent advance.


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## Phoenall (Nov 18, 2014)

Penelope said:


> I don't believe in any violence, but we have lots of it here, but it feels worst when it hits home doesn't it. I guess some Jews are still praying and worship who was it Goldstein, who did the massacre on the Pals while they were worshipping.
> 
> I see they
> The family of the men said Israeli forces raided their homes following the attack and detained 12 family members, including Abu Jamal's wife, mother, and brothers Munther, Jamal, Imade, Murad, and Muawiya.
> ...





 Then don't complain when Israel retaliates and bombs a mosque will you................


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## Phoenall (Nov 18, 2014)

Coyote said:


> MJB12741 said:
> 
> 
> > Once again Israel got what Israel deserved for their treatment of Palestinians with peace offerings, a security fence & land concessions so the Palestinians can remain in Israel.  When will Israel ever learn to treat the Palestinians like their own Arab brothers do in surrounding Arab countries?
> ...






 Did he, or did he have his fingers crossed. What odds will you give me that he praises the terrorist murderers when next he speaks to the Palestinians................


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## Phoenall (Nov 18, 2014)

Coyote said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > I don't believe in any violence, but we have lots of it here, but it feels worst when it hits home doesn't it. I guess some Jews are still praying and worship who was it Goldstein, who did the massacre on the Pals while they were worshipping.
> ...






The reprisals will begin and the Palestinians will suffer greatly for these murders, they have it in their control to bring a halt to the killings just arrest all the terrorists and agree to talks.


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## Delta4Embassy (Nov 18, 2014)

Watching the coverage here. Hope the police officer wounded pulls through. Logged in angry, but reading this thread, I find myself asking "do I wanna join this fray? Be like them?" ...No. It happened, getting upset about it wont change anything and only harm myself. I'm saddened, for everyone involved. For the Palestinians who had so little in life to love and cherish that this act seemed like a good idea, for their victims who should have been safe in a synagogue, and for those who responded and had to see the aftermath. CNN has some crime scene photos of blood covered floors. I'm not angry any more. Just sad. This is all just sad.


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## Phoenall (Nov 18, 2014)

Coyote said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Time to teach a terrible and frightful lesson as retaliation against those who perpetrated this outrage.
> ...






 If they had been doing that gaza would have been flattened 45 years ago, and not rebuilt at Israeli expence. Then gaza would have been a wasteland of refugee camps and cemeteries and a staging post for Israeli troops


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## Phoenall (Nov 18, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> Kondor3 said:
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> > Beelzebub said:
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 The consequences for the Palestinians are horrendous as the west is looking to sanctions and action against them. Expect friendly nations to now take Israel's side and demand UN action against the Palestinians. I wonder what Santa is bringing the Palestinians this year ?


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## Kondor3 (Nov 18, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> ...They may. But the consequences for Israel would be devastating. And despite evidence to the contrary, we can expect the strategists in Israel to know there are things that would destroy them, after an apparent advance.


In any event, we will know within a mere several years, or a decade or so - things are coming to a head.


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## Beelzebub (Nov 18, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> Beelzebub said:
> 
> 
> > ...They may. But the consequences for Israel would be devastating. And despite evidence to the contrary, we can expect the strategists in Israel to know there are things that would destroy them, after an apparent advance.
> ...



I'd say we are in for 20 years of bad behaviour, until the US utterly gives up on Israel.  At which point they will probably find that peace is the easiest option.  100 years from now Israel and Palestine will likely be a closely federated state, home for Palestinians and for Jews, but not for newcomers, as overpopulation will have made people see they cannot continually take populations from less crowded places.


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## teddyearp (Nov 18, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> Nothing left to do but to raise the stakes and to begin responding so devastatingly disproportionately as to make The Enemy come to the realization that they will be hurt _vastly_ more than any hurt that they can inflict by initiating such actions - so as to make the people of Rump Palestine come to the realization that they have no choice but to rein-in their own crazies, or continue to suffer such unstoppable and disproportionate losses.



Don't take me wrong as in some ways I do agree with this idea, however by doing so Israel loses the media campaign on all sides as this disproportionality is always used against them by both western and Palestinian media and propagandists.

I mean look at the Palestinian response.  They have children (yes children) posing with happy letters praising this killing on social media.  This attack is heralded as a response to Israel's "invasion" of the al-Aqsa mosque~something which was worked out in Jordan last week.

After typing this, I am crazy.  there is no good answer.


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## Lipush (Nov 18, 2014)

Coyote said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote, _et al,_
> ...



Now there are calls to boycott anything Arab. Dozens of Arab workers were fired today, The Rabbis call to refraint from hiring them or buying at their stores. Mothers told they'll prevent kids from going outside or come in touch with them.

Call it price tag? I call it dark days.

My gardener can come to me with an axe tomorrow, and it won't be at all surprising. Did you know that one of the terrorists worked at a store next to the place? his boss is a Jew. 

Now we look at them in general as enemies. Dark experience.


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## Beelzebub (Nov 18, 2014)

Lipush said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
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As was discovered in Iraq, making thousands of working aged men unemployed with no source of income and angry was not a way to quieten things down.

They are likely to lead the rioting and join resistance movements.
So it is not just illegal collective punishment (again) by Israel.  It is stupid.


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## teddyearp (Nov 18, 2014)

Lipush said:


> Now there are calls to boycott anything Arab.



It was the riots earlier in Nazareth that changed my plans to stay there next year. It is this continued violence that will keep me and my money out of any part of the usual tourist area in the West Bank, i.e. Bethlehem and Jericho and at this rate I will not spend a dime in the Muslim quarter of the old city nor from any Arab seller in the shuk.


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## fanger (Nov 18, 2014)

The *Cave of the Patriarchs massacre* or *Ibrahimi Mosque massacre*, also known as the *Hebron massacre*,[1] was a shooting attack carried out by American-born Israeli Baruch Goldstein, a member of the far-right Israeli Kach movement, who opened fire on unarmed Palestinian Muslims praying inside the Ibrahimi Mosque (or Mosque of Abraham) at the Cave of the Patriarchs in Hebron, West Bank. It took place on February 25, 1994, during the overlapping religious holidays of Purim and Ramadan.[2][3] The attack left 29 male worshippers dead and 125 wounded.[4] The attack only ended after Goldstein was overcome and beaten to death by survivors.
Cave of the Patriarchs massacre - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


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## Beelzebub (Nov 18, 2014)

I think the key point here, is that whether Israel likes it or not, these people, these Palestinians are a large part of Israel's population.  The government and legal system may want to call them non-citizens and limit their rights and make them an underclass, but they are a major part of the population.

And no regime can survive intact if their population rebels.
If Israel is not careful it could start to look very much like Syria does.


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## Beelzebub (Nov 18, 2014)

teddyearp said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Now there are calls to boycott anything Arab.
> ...



Thank you for supporting BDS.


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## Lipush (Nov 18, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



It may be, but they brought us to the situation when we don't trust them or want to be near them.


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## Lipush (Nov 18, 2014)

fanger said:


> The *Cave of the Patriarchs massacre* or *Ibrahimi Mosque massacre*, also known as the *Hebron massacre*,[1] was a shooting attack carried out by American-born Israeli Baruch Goldstein, a member of the far-right Israeli Kach movement, who opened fire on unarmed Palestinian Muslims praying inside the Ibrahimi Mosque (or Mosque of Abraham) at the Cave of the Patriarchs in Hebron, West Bank. It took place on February 25, 1994, during the overlapping religious holidays of Purim and Ramadan.[2][3] The attack left 29 male worshippers dead and 125 wounded.[4] The attack only ended after Goldstein was overcome and beaten to death by survivors.
> Cave of the Patriarchs massacre - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia



Yes. It was a tragedy. Also, the reason you all even know his name was because it was one lunatic and events such as this didn't occure again. And that you know, but you still bring this bullshit here.

Want to know what this event really looks like??

Mercaz HaRav massacre - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


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## Beelzebub (Nov 18, 2014)

Lipush said:


> Beelzebub said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



That is sort of like saying:  Its THEIR fault we are doing something stupid.


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## Lipush (Nov 18, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Beelzebub said:
> ...



Pretty much, I guess.


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## RoccoR (Nov 18, 2014)

Coyote,  _et al,_

I do not agree with "collective punishment" in the arbitrary sense wherein the penalty is imposed on every member of a population, without regard to their individual involvement in the group's actions and conduct.  

The second-largest of the groups within the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO)_(albeit an estranged relationship)_, is the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) _(the largest being Fatah)_.   Some say the PFLP is in the initial stage of becoming embryonic splinter group, as it considers both Fatah and HAMAS as illegitimate governments; absent a popular mandate via elections.  I tend to section-off the general Palestinian population into five segments:

The segment of the Population that supports HAMAS as the legitimate government. 
The segment of the Population that supports Fatah as the legitimate government.
The segment of the Population that supports a quasi-coalition Fatah-HAMAS as the legitimate government.
The segment of the Population that supports PFLP and sees neither Fatah or HAMAS as the legitimate government.
The segment of the Population accepts the government _de jure_.   
I do not see the general Palestinian population to being mature enough to establish and sustain a viable government under a common set of institutional laws _(domestic or international)_.  



Coyote said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote, _et al,_
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

What I see as representative of the general Palestinian population is a people that cannot look in the mirror and define themselves.  They are a people that have not been able in quarter-century to establish a working framework of government.  They are a people with one set of common characteristic: ---

They have all adopted the use of force in settling dispute issues.
They have all adopted the use of force as a means intended to coerce or to intimidate Israel and regional societies.
They have all adopted the use of mass-media language which is either designed or likely to provoke or encourage a threat to the peace, breaches of the peace, or acts of aggression and violence.
They have subsisted totally on the parasitic relationship established to help and render assistance in their non-nation building processes.
They have all adopted the use of force to the pursuit of goals that are generally political, religious, or ideological --- but ineffectual for more than a quarter-century.
They consider the overthrow of the Israel Occupation more important than the establishment of a nation for the people; instead --- following government with social order.
The one thing that the general population has in common, is instead of focusing on building a respectable government, they all generally provide some material support towards organizing, instigating, facilitating, participating in, financing, encouraging or tolerating terrorist, revolutionary, insurgent or guerrilla activities intended to be committed against Israel, other States, or their citizens.  And they openly _(no mixed words - no ambiguities)_ hold this as policy in their goals and objectives.  In this regard, they have been --- for more than three decades, posed a common threat.  And it is this common thread that make them collectively responsible, and subject to the consequences of their actions as a people.  They cannot beg off on this --- if they consider themselves to be "Palestinians."  It is they _(collectively)_ that sanction their leadership and the various groups _(Jihadist, Fedayeen, terrorists, militias and brigades)_ that operate and carry-out such cowardly attacks against unarmed and peaceful members of the population at large. 

This latest attack in the Jerusalem Synagogue is NOT unique; but, one in a long list of hostile events targeting unarmed citizenry dating well back and before the Munich Massacre perpetrated by Palestinians four decades ago.  We would be well to reassess what we mean when we say "collective punishment" when ALL Palestinians have --- in some measure --- aggravated and promoted an environment for such events to occur.  

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Kondor3 (Nov 18, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> That is sort of like saying:  Its THEIR fault we are doing something stupid.


Not really.

The Jews evacuated Gaza.

The Palestinians had land.

They had peace.

They had infrastructure.

They had a large measure of autonomy.

Then they decided that that was not good enough.

Then they decided to phukk with Israel again.

Then they decided to elevate Hamas to a position of political leadership.

Then things went into the crapper.

Permanently, quite probably.

The Palestinians never miss an opportunity, to miss an opportunity.

Their loss.

There is no Arab cavalry coming over the hill to rescue them, this time.

They're on their own, to an extent that they have never been before.

Just when they should have been at their peak, in soliciting the aid of others.

Under-performing Losers.


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## fanger (Nov 18, 2014)

We would be well to reassess what we mean when we say "collective punishment" when ALL Israeli's have --- in some measure --- aggravated and promoted an environment for such events to occur.


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## Lipush (Nov 18, 2014)

Bnei Brak- 3 Arabs were found and arrested, holding knives in preparation of attack.

Were taken by police.


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## Lipush (Nov 18, 2014)

fanger said:


> We would be well to reassess what we mean when we say "collective punishment" when ALL Israeli's have --- in some measure --- aggravated and promoted an environment for such events to occur.



I agree.

We made sure it would be easier for them to attack us, but allowing them access to us.


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## fanger (Nov 18, 2014)

GAZA also had the blockade  The *blockades of the Gaza Strip* refers to a land, air, and sea blockade on the Gaza Strip by Israel from 2007 to present.    Blockade of the Gaza Strip - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


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## fanger (Nov 18, 2014)

Lipush said:


> fanger said:
> 
> 
> > We would be well to reassess what we mean when we say "collective punishment" when ALL Israeli's have --- in some measure --- aggravated and promoted an environment for such events to occur.
> ...


So, leave their land


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## RoccoR (Nov 18, 2014)

fanger,  _et al,_

What is "their land."




fanger said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > fanger said:
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

There are a number of different Palestinian Leaders saying different things.  What is their land?  For instance, HAMAS says:

Palestine from the river to the sea, and from north to south, is a land of the Palestinian people and its homeland and its legitimate right, we may not a waiver an inch or any part thereof, no matter what the reasons and circumstances and pressures. 

Palestine - all of Palestine - is a land of Islamic and Arab affiliation, a blessed sacred land, that has a major portion in the heart of every Arab and Muslim.​
Most Respectfully,
R


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## fanger (Nov 18, 2014)

You could start at Israeli-occupied territories - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


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## RoccoR (Nov 18, 2014)

fanger,  _et al,_

All it takes if for the Palestinians to sit down and comply:

Every State has the duty to refrain from the threat or use of force to violate the existing international boundaries of another State or as a means of solving international disputes, including territorial disputes and problems concerning frontiers of States.  (A/RES/25/2625)

States shall accordingly seek early and just settlement of their international disputes by negotiation, inquiry, mediation, conciliation, arbitration, judicial settlement, resort to regional agencies or arrangements or other peaceful means of their choice. In seeking such a settlement the parties shall agree upon such peaceful means as may be appropriate to the circumstances and nature of the dispute.

The parties to a dispute have the duty, in the event of failure to reach a solution by any one of the above peaceful means, to continue to seek a settlement of the dispute by other peaceful means agreed upon by them.

States parties to an international dispute, as well as other States shall refrain from any action which may aggravate the Situation so as to endanger the maintenance of international peace and security, and shall act in accordance with the purposes and principles of the United Nations.​


fanger said:


> You could start at Israeli-occupied territories - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


*(COMMENT)*

All the Palestinians have to do is reach an agreement.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Coyote (Nov 18, 2014)

Kond
[QUOTE="RoccoR said:


> Coyote,  _et al,_
> 
> I do not agree with "collective punishment" in the arbitrary sense wherein the penalty is imposed on every member of a population, without regard to their individual involvement in the group's actions and conduct.
> 
> ...





RoccoR said:


> fanger,  _et al,_
> 
> All it takes if for the Palestinians to sit down and comply:
> 
> ...



Both sides are required for that.  Israel has been just as recalcitrant in refusing to deal while continuing to erode any possibility of a two-state solution with it's continued settlement activities.  It takes two.


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## fanger (Nov 18, 2014)

All it takes is for the Israel's to sit down and comply:


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## Coyote (Nov 18, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> Every State has the duty to refrain from the threat or use of force to violate the existing international boundaries of another State or as a means of solving international disputes, including territorial disputes and problems concerning frontiers of States.  (A/RES/25/2625)​



What if refraining from force gains nothing and the other, far more powerful state continues take territory?  I agree, the Palestinians have a habit of shooting themselves in the foot, but it's not an entirely one sided affair.  If they go to the UN for help, they are continually blocked by the US and Israel.  Israel sets it's own preconditions to any peace and demands no preconditions from the Palestinians.


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## Coyote (Nov 18, 2014)

I can't help but wonder how much Sharon's policy of total seperation has brought about these recent events.  Many Palestinians have never met a Jew.  Many Jews have never met a Palestinian.  Prior to this, there was a lot more intermingling.  When you never meet each other, it's easier to believe the propoganda (and there is plenty from BOTH sides) and easier to sustain hatred of the other.  When your schools teach you children that the other side is not to be trusted - what do you have to show you different?

Ariel Sharon s Legacy of Separation - The Atlantic



> ...Still, the Israeli leader doubted that he could come to a lasting agreement with the Palestinians. Sharon’s plan *ultimately involved circumventing the Palestinian Authority, not working with it; he became convinced that only a policy of “separation” from the Palestinians could secure Israel.* Separation consisted of two stages. The first step was to build *a massive barrier in the West Bank between the largest Jewish settlements and the bulk of the Palestinian population.* Though this angered many on the Israeli right who opposed “abandoning” Jews in the West Bank, the idea enjoyed popular support. In an October 2003 poll, more than 80 percent of Israelis said they believed constructing fences and walls would significantly reduce or prevent suicide bombers from attacking Israeli cafes and buses.
> 
> Sharon had effectively sold Israelis on his policy of separation—the idea that Israel could insulate itself from the Palestinian problem on its own terms and according to its own security needs, without conceding to all Palestinian demands.
> 
> ...


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## Lipush (Nov 18, 2014)

fanger said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > fanger said:
> ...



I don't recall us sitting in the half land of Arabia.

We sit in Judea. The Land of the Jews. It was after all, named after them.

And I would not leave the land. Not only Arabs stole my inheritence, you're now telling me to leave what they didn't take over?

Pfft. Fairly unlikely.


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## Lipush (Nov 18, 2014)

Coyote said:


> I can't help but wonder how much Sharon's policy of total seperation has brought about these recent events.  Many Palestinians have never met a Jew.  Many Jews have never met a Palestinian.  Prior to this, there was a lot more intermingling.  When you never meet each other, it's easier to believe the propoganda (and there is plenty from BOTH sides) and easier to sustain hatred of the other.  When your schools teach you children that the other side is not to be trusted - what do you have to show you different?
> 
> Ariel Sharon s Legacy of Separation - The Atlantic
> 
> ...




Many Jews don't want to ever come across a Palestinian, since they love their bodies intact.


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## MJB12741 (Nov 18, 2014)

Regretfully the time is long overdo for Israel to contact the leaders of Hamas & make it quite clear that from now on, for each time the Palestinians kill an Israeli, Israel will retalitate by killing 10,000 Palestinians, & do it.  Hopefully that would be enough to change Palestinian thinking to kill Israeli's.  But then, let us not forget it took Jordan 20,000 dead Palestinians to effectively communicate peace from them.


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## MJB12741 (Nov 18, 2014)

Coyote said:


> MJB12741 said:
> 
> 
> > Once again Israel got what Israel deserved for their treatment of Palestinians with peace offerings, a security fence & land concessions so the Palestinians can remain in Israel.  When will Israel ever learn to treat the Palestinians like their own Arab brothers do in surrounding Arab countries?
> ...




Lets deal with documented facts for a change.  Tell us how many dead Palestinians it took for Jordan to communicate a lasting peace from them?


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## MJB12741 (Nov 18, 2014)

Remember when that Israeli nutcase Baruch Goldstein massacred Palestinians at the Cave of thePatriarchs & how Israel officially condemned it.  Surely the Palestinians feel the same way about Hamas killing Jews in a Synagogue in Jersusalem, right Pali supporters?


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## Coyote (Nov 19, 2014)

MJB12741 said:


> Remember when that Israeli nutcase Baruch Goldstein massacred Palestinians at the Cave of thePatriarchs & how Israel officially condemned it.  Surely the Palestinians feel the same way about Hamas killing Jews in a Synagogue in Jersusalem, right Pali supporters?



Israel officially condemned it, but a substantial minority of settlers continue to honor and enshrine him.

Public Opinion Israeli Palestinian Support for Peace Accord Was Dropping Before Massacre 1994 April-May
_Regarding the massacre itself, a poll conducted by Israel's Teleseker polling firm for the International Center for Peace in the Middle East found that immediately after the massacre 79 percent of the Israelis polled condemned it, 11 percent said "it had to be understood against the background of Arab terror against Jews," and 3.6 percent praised Goldstein._​Abbas strongly condemned the synagogue attack.  Who cares what Hamas thinks?  They are a terrorist organization.

Israel is apparently renewing it's home demolations as well: independentmail.com AP News

_Punitive demolition was a tactic frequently employed by Israeli security forces before defense chiefs decided to suspend it in 2005 after concluding it was not an effective deterrent.


Since then it has been used occasionally - three times in east Jerusalem in 2009, and three times over the summer in response to the killing of an Israeli policeman and the murder of three Israeli teenagers._​
Interestingly, home demolition ONLY occurs when the attackers are Palestinian.  The homes of the men who burned Mohammed Abu Khdair alive were left intact.


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## P F Tinmore (Nov 19, 2014)

Coyote said:


> MJB12741 said:
> 
> 
> > Remember when that Israeli nutcase Baruch Goldstein massacred Palestinians at the Cave of thePatriarchs & how Israel officially condemned it.  Surely the Palestinians feel the same way about Hamas killing Jews in a Synagogue in Jersusalem, right Pali supporters?
> ...


Indeed, that process is called apartheid.


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## montelatici (Nov 19, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> fanger,  _et al,_
> 
> All it takes if for the Palestinians to sit down and comply:
> 
> ...



All the land that Israel now controls was occupied by European migrants turned invaders.  This is not a case of two states negotiating anything.

For now Israel should stick to adhering to the Geneva Conventions that relate to occupations.


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## MJB12741 (Nov 19, 2014)

montelatici said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > fanger,  _et al,_
> ...



No.  For now Israel should start treating the Palestinians like Jordan did to establish a lasting peace from them.


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## Delta4Embassy (Nov 19, 2014)

Think the world's stuck in a kind of infinite loop like in computer programming. We get revenge, then they get revenge on us, then we have to get it again, and on n on. Politicians being the ones in charge are stuck. They can't do the right thing and forgo revenge without losing their office so they feed into the loop to remain in power. So here we are. It never stops because we have shitty leaders who'd rather remain in office than do the right things and help break the cycle of endless revenge.

Heard the officer didn't make it. RIP bro'.


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## RoccoR (Nov 19, 2014)

montelatici,  et al,

It is a belligerent occupation.



montelatici said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > fanger,  _et al,_
> ...


*(QUESTION)*

What is the beef?  The occupation is being, as close as possible, conducted pursuant to the Geneva Convention, given the hostile nature of the Palestinians.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Kondor3 (Nov 19, 2014)

montelatici said:


> ...All the land that Israel now controls was occupied by European migrants turned invaders.  This is not a case of two states negotiating anything...


You're right.

Screw the negotiations.

Get your raggedy Arab asses out.


----------



## Hossfly (Nov 19, 2014)

The people who worship at the Jerusalem synagogue are not running away nor will the be intimidated by the senseless attack.



HAR NOF, JERUSALEM — Dov Sorotzkin was awakened Tuesday by gunfire between Palestinian assailants and Israeli police at his synagogue.

On Wednesday, he and his wife returned to their place of worship to celebrate their newborn son’s _brit mila_, or circumcision.

He describes the ceremony as a symbol of the willingness to give oneself to God – just as the four rabbis were doing when they were killed Tuesday morning here in Har Nof, an Orthodox Jewish neighborhood of West Jerusalem.


Jerusalem synagogue attack Day later site is symbol of faith determination video - CSMonitor.com


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## MJB12741 (Nov 19, 2014)

Israel's greatest mistake was to offer peace offerings to the Palestinians, build a security fence & grant them their own land.  No wonder Israel gets rocket missiles for a thank you.


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## Vikrant (Nov 19, 2014)

It is so sad to see inhumane terrorist attacks like these. I cannot believe people are capable of conditioning themselves in committing these horrible acts. I offer my sympathy and condolences to victims and their families and the entire nation of Israel.


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## theliq (Nov 19, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> Time to teach a terrible and frightful lesson as retaliation against those who perpetrated this outrage.
> 
> Attack 1 synagogue?
> 
> ...


Good Morning Kondie,Time for leadership,not inflammatory rhetoric.....As the cycle of violence between Is and Pal escalates,inflammatory rhetoric (which you and others are perpetuating)is the last thing this bonfire needs.

On one hand Net and yaho states that Mahmoud Abbas is responsible for the killings,yet on the other hand Shin Bet Chief (responsible for Israels security)Yoram Cohen says "Abbas was not inciting violence but he was trying to prevent a new Intfada,moreover Cohen's predecessor,Yuval Diskin,also believes Abbas is a force for moderation,he went on to say if Abbas is sidelined by Israel what is the alternative........Hamas.....Net., needs to think long and hard,moreover keep the Likud Currs and others in Israel under control.

The danger now is Extremists.....on both sides.

The Extremist Likud's Moshe Feiglin has been trying to stir up trouble at the al-Aqsa mosque for months and has delighted in marching to the compound in Jerusalem armed with their security men,also the Settlers who burnt a mosque as part of Their twisted "price tag" policy.Netan., has done nothing to bring these elements under any control.

I think these Jewish murders like all these tit-for-tat murders appaulling quite frankly.....but to incite for what ever reason reaps what is sown..as it were.

Kondie the level of hatred on both sides is at its highest point for months and yes even years as the intranigents sic.....have taken the upper hand.

Two years ago a Mob of young Israelis kicked to death a Palestinian boy because they heard him speak Arabic.....earlier this year 3 young Israelis were murdered and in revenge a 13 year old Palestinian was burned alive/murdered.........and so it goes on...in October a Palestinian drove into a bus stop and killed/murdered a three month old girl and a 22 year old woman......last week a Palestinian bus driver was lynched by the Israeli youth mob....now this week another 4 Peaceful Jews have been murdered....these are just a few horrendous attacks from both sides,and I repeat just a few.

Rhetoric is cheap......what is needed is a Statesman or woman from both sides.

There are dire outcomes for both sides if not.............It's time for REAL LEADERSHIP........neither side has control.......and it's extremists on both sides who are driving the agenda..of which only Death and Destruction is the only Result.

Which in my opinion is Madness...steve


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## theliq (Nov 19, 2014)

Vikrant said:


> It is so sad to see inhumane terrorist attacks like these. I cannot believe people are capable of conditioning themselves in committing these horrible acts. I offer my sympathy and condolences to victims and their families and the entire nation of Israel.


Terrorist is a ? of which side of the fence you straddle,Vik


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## theliq (Nov 19, 2014)

MJB12741 said:


> Israel's greatest mistake was to offer peace offerings to the Palestinians, build a security fence & grant them their own land.  No wonder Israel gets rocket missiles for a thank you.


Silly response......it is far,far more complicated than that


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## Kondor3 (Nov 19, 2014)

theliq said:


> ...Good Morning Kondie,Time for leadership,not inflammatory rhetoric...


That's a marvelous sentiment, and, in a sane environment, you would be right.

The Palestinians, however, are not sane.

Consequently, it's time to inflict ten times the harm on the Palestinians as they inflict on the Israelis.

Ten times.

And worse, and worse, and worse, in increments, until it does some good.

I really and truly grieve over this prospect and wish I was wrong and wish that things were different, but what I wish has no bearing whatsoever upon what is now needed, and what must now be done, as Palestinian savagery is forcing the Israelis to harden their hearts to an extent never before experienced in this long-running conflict.

It is time for the Israelis to act decisively.

No more talk.

There is nothing more to say.

There is nothing more to negotiate.

It's all been said and done and tried before, to no avail.

There is nothing left to do but to teach a frightful lesson.

As often and on as escalating a scale as may be required to accomplish the task at hand.

Time to take the gloves off, and Devil take the hindmost.


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## Vikrant (Nov 19, 2014)

theliq said:


> Vikrant said:
> 
> 
> > It is so sad to see inhumane terrorist attacks like these. I cannot believe people are capable of conditioning themselves in committing these horrible acts. I offer my sympathy and condolences to victims and their families and the entire nation of Israel.
> ...



It is sad when people refer to terrorists as freedom fighters when it suits their agenda. But, that is one of the many reasons this world is a messed up place.


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## P F Tinmore (Nov 19, 2014)

Vikrant said:


> theliq said:
> 
> 
> > Vikrant said:
> ...


I don't buy that terrorist name calling propaganda.


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## Vikrant (Nov 19, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Vikrant said:
> 
> 
> > theliq said:
> ...



Entering a place of worship and murdering unarmed civilians in a gruesome manner is all there to see. There is no need for propaganda. I guess that is why they say that truth is the best propaganda.


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## Hossfly (Nov 19, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Vikrant said:
> 
> 
> > theliq said:
> ...


Two animals who go into a place of worship and butcher 5 innocent people are not terrorists Tinmore? Were the animals fighting the 5 for their freedom?  You stink.


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## theliq (Nov 19, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> theliq said:
> 
> 
> > ...Good Morning Kondie,Time for leadership,not inflammatory rhetoric...
> ...


Sorry Kondie,I just cannot agree,It will cost Israel big time if they continue to allow the Extremists to lead their people.....I alerted to you and others that this outcome would arise about 2 years ago............These people want nothing more that the total elimination of the Palestinian race......they are worse than Hamas a lot worse......Israel as much a Palestine need to negotiate.........Palestine will never be defeated and neither will Israel,but with your punitive analysis and adherence there will only be one result A BLOODBATH........steve


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## theliq (Nov 19, 2014)

theliq said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > theliq said:
> ...


----------



## P F Tinmore (Nov 19, 2014)

Hossfly said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Vikrant said:
> ...


Israel calling the Palestinians terrorists is like the coal mine calling the kettle black.


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## RoccoR (Nov 19, 2014)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

It is not "name calling" _(gratuitous verbal abuse --- AKA: abusive or insulting language referring to a person or group)_ as you so defensively put it.  "Name calling" is the very first level in Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement.




​


P F Tinmore said:


> Vikrant said:
> 
> 
> > theliq said:
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

In this context it is a technical and descriptive term that identifies a class of predatory personalities that manifest an amoral and antisocial behavior.  Terrorists, like many Jihadist, Fedayeen, Insurgents and Guerillas  _[in the context under discussion, collectively known as Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP)]_ are incapable of feeling guilt, remorse or empathy for their victims; without considering the consequences of their actions --- and --- exhibit extreme egocentric and narcissistic behavior.  They are generally not able to the calculate the impact for their use of violence _(or the threat of violence)_ against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature.  This is done through intimidation or coercion or instilling fear.  They generally are not self aware of their psychopathic behaviors and unable to accept the responsibility for the political-military consequences that may ensue. 

Most Respectively,
R


----------



## Vikrant (Nov 19, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



I am not Israel. As a matter of fact I do not represent any state. I represent myself. My views are my own. I did not call Palestinians terrorists. I called Palestinian terrorists terrorists.


----------



## Kondor3 (Nov 19, 2014)

theliq said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > theliq said:
> ...


We appear to be reaching the End-Game with zero hope of a negotiated peace in sight. I think we're about to find out whether this is winnable, after all.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Nov 19, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> It is not "name calling" _(gratuitous verbal abuse --- AKA: abusive or insulting language referring to a person or group)_ as you so defensively put it.  "Name calling" is the very first level in Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement.
> 
> ...


There you go again. Basing your conclusions on false premise.

You know that "civilian" is not the definitive term. It should be "protected persons" that Israelis are not.


----------



## toastman (Nov 20, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  et al,
> ...



Israelis in Israel are protected persons. What a ridiculous thing to say.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Nov 20, 2014)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


I am just saying what The Fourth Geneva Convention says.


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## toastman (Nov 20, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



I know exactly what you're talking about. But it refers to occupied places, so it doesn't apply to Israel proper.


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## P F Tinmore (Nov 20, 2014)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...


Can you prove your point?


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## toastman (Nov 20, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Look up the definition of terrorism


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## toastman (Nov 20, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



You're the one who can't prove it. Post it and we'll take a look.


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## P F Tinmore (Nov 20, 2014)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...


I can't prove a negative. Where is Israel proper?


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## toastman (Nov 20, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



You've never actually proved that the quite applies to Israel.

Where is Israel proper?? Take a guess Tinmore


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## theliq (Nov 20, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> theliq said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...


We will see and hope Kondie.............I trust you are wrong..steve


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## theliq (Nov 20, 2014)

..





RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> It is not "name calling" _(gratuitous verbal abuse --- AKA: abusive or insulting language referring to a person or group)_ as you so defensively put it.  "Name calling" is the very first level in Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement.
> 
> ...


You could use this analogy for both sides, or anyone for that matter.........Rocco......The Jews/Israelis have never been squeaky clean since the 1920's and beyond....as you would well know.The world mainly Europe wanted rid of the Jews after WW2 and Europe were happy to give them a part of Palestine.....thinking the Palestinian were a pack of Whooshes but they were not and are not..........and in that regard the Palestinians are like the Jews......since 1250 when the English banished the Jews,virtually every European nation have done the same over the past 900 years..............never hear anyone getting stuck into the Germans,why not,??????it was only a generation ago or less!!!!!No just the Palestinians and Arabs.


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## P F Tinmore (Nov 20, 2014)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...


In Palestine.


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## Phoenall (Nov 20, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...





 Then let their government find them work after the BDS put many thousands out of work by closing down the factories in the west bank. So you talk about collective punishment and fail to see that your movement is the one doing it.


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## Phoenall (Nov 20, 2014)

fanger said:


> The *Cave of the Patriarchs massacre* or *Ibrahimi Mosque massacre*, also known as the *Hebron massacre*,[1] was a shooting attack carried out by American-born Israeli Baruch Goldstein, a member of the far-right Israeli Kach movement, who opened fire on unarmed Palestinian Muslims praying inside the Ibrahimi Mosque (or Mosque of Abraham) at the Cave of the Patriarchs in Hebron, West Bank. It took place on February 25, 1994, during the overlapping religious holidays of Purim and Ramadan.[2][3] The attack left 29 male worshippers dead and 125 wounded.[4] The attack only ended after Goldstein was overcome and beaten to death by survivors.
> Cave of the Patriarchs massacre - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia






 Yes while the balance of his mind was disturbed after witnessing the mass murders of many of his friends


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## Kondor3 (Nov 20, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> Beelzebub said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...


It IS rather sweetly ironic, though, that BDS hits hardest, amongst those Palestinians who need the jobs in the West Bank. The Israeli owners? Hell, they just move out of the West Bank, and, viola, instant lifting of censure - not to mention more jobs for Israelis or Jewish immigrants - who can then go home to new Jewish settlements built upon the land where the business used to stand in the West Bank. Silly, silly boycotting bitches.


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## Kondor3 (Nov 20, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> ...Where is Israel proper?


Wherever Israel says it is.


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## Phoenall (Nov 20, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> I think the key point here, is that whether Israel likes it or not, these people, these Palestinians are a large part of Israel's population.  The government and legal system may want to call them non-citizens and limit their rights and make them an underclass, but they are a major part of the population.
> 
> And no regime can survive intact if their population rebels.
> If Israel is not careful it could start to look very much like Syria does.





 They are not any part of Israel's population, they are Palestinians. They have their own government that is supposed to look after their needs and provide for them. If what you say is correct then there is no occupation and no blockade, and it is all an internal matter that will be dealt with under military law. So decide are they Palestinians with non member status in the UN or are they Israeli with full member status in the UN.


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## Phoenall (Nov 20, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...





 Yes the MANDATE OF PALESTINE as opposed to the NATION OF PALESTINE


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## theliq (Nov 20, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> fanger said:
> 
> 
> > The *Cave of the Patriarchs massacre* or *Ibrahimi Mosque massacre*, also known as the *Hebron massacre*,[1] was a shooting attack carried out by American-born Israeli Baruch Goldstein, a member of the far-right Israeli Kach movement, who opened fire on unarmed Palestinian Muslims praying inside the Ibrahimi Mosque (or Mosque of Abraham) at the Cave of the Patriarchs in Hebron, West Bank. It took place on February 25, 1994, during the overlapping religious holidays of Purim and Ramadan.[2][3] The attack left 29 male worshippers dead and 125 wounded.[4] The attack only ended after Goldstein was overcome and beaten to death by survivors.
> ...


So if you use that analogy all Palestinians should use the same excuse but there is NO EXCUSE for what this Loony did........much like the Assination of Prime Minister Rabin,a similar excuse was made about that Murderer...but we all know they were not Mad.....they were bloody evil.....but you Phony always defend the Indefensible because you think the same.....NO CROCIDILE TEARS PLEASE........PATHETIC WEAK COMMENT,yet again


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## Kondor3 (Nov 20, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> ...You know that "civilian" is not the definitive term. It should be "protected persons" that Israelis are not.


There you go, Tinny.

This is why Israel appears to be preparing to move rapidly towards the End-Game with the Palestinians.

Your side has declared _Open Season_ on Israeli civilians.

It does not _matter_ whether you can spin a legal argument at international law that might make allowance for it.

It is the mere act itself, of formally declaring _Open Season_ on civilians, that is going to bring _great_ harm to all Palestinians still residing in the West Bank and Gaza.

_Great_ harm.

You(r side) is a Pygmy.

Standing next to a Colossus.

A Colossus that has - until now - shown some considerable modicum of restraint - having contained you, and harassed you, but not resorting (yet) to killing you, except in retaliation for your own aggression, and not (yet) to the extent required to remove the threat that you now pose, to his wife and children.

After years of sporadic hostilities, with you on the losing side of the equation, you formally declare that the wife and children of the Colossus are now Fair Game.

Are you(r side) phukking *insane*?

Do you _really_ want the Colossus to harden his heart to the extent necessary to abandon all other measures and to begin killing you in droves, or expelling you en masse?

Really?

Jesus-H-Tap-Dancing-Christ, but you(r side) really *ARE* a *Stupid People*, aren't you?

_Unbelievably_ stupid.

Stupid people not only piss into the wind, but they continue to do it, again and again and again, even after they're soaking wet and stinking.

Stupid peoples do not last.

No wonder Nature has de-selected you !


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## RoccoR (Nov 20, 2014)

P F Tinmore, toastman, et al,

Well, to a degree --- our friend P F Tinmore is correct; as far as he goes.  But like so many people, he does not give a complete answer.



toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


*(OBSERVATION)*

Rule 5 Customary International Humanitarian Law:  Civilians are persons who are not members of the armed forces. The civilian population comprises all persons who are civilians.

The definition of civilians as persons who are not members of the armed forces is set forth in Article 50 of Additional Protocol I, to which no reservations have been made.[1]  It is also contained in numerous military manuals.[2]  It is reflected in reported practice.[3]  This practice includes that of States not, or not at the time, party to Additional Protocol I.[4]​Protocol Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts (Protocol I), 8 June 1977.


Article 50 -- Definition of civilians and civilian population

1. A civilian is any person who does not belong to one of the categories of persons referred to in Article 4 A (1), (2), (3) and (6) [ Link ] of the Third Convention and in Article 43 [ Link ] of this Protocol. In case of doubt whether a person is a civilian, that person shall be considered to be a civilian.
2. The civilian population comprises all persons who are civilians.
3. The presence within the civilian population of individuals who do not come within the definition of civilians does not deprive the population of its civilian character.​
*(COMMENT)*

P F Tinmore is correct in that the term "civilian" is not defined by the main body of the Fourth Geneva Convention (GCIV).  He is incorrect _(very wrong)_ in suggesting that it is not a defined term.  A quick examination of the observations, supra, demonstrate that the term "civilian" is defined by both Protocol I to the GCIV as well as in Customary Humanitarian Law (IHL).

He would also be incorrect in suggesting that the main body of the GCIV does not provide for attacks made against the Occupation Force (Israelis) by the belligerent "protected persons" (Hostile Arab Palestinians).

Convention (IV) relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War. Geneva, 12 August 1949.
Penal legislation. V. Penalties. Death penalty
ARTICLE 68 [ Link ]
Protected persons who commit an offence which is solely intended to harm the Occupying Power, but which does not constitute an attempt on the life or limb of members of the occupying forces or administration, nor a grave collective danger, nor seriously damage the property of the occupying forces or administration or the installations used by them, shall be liable to internment or simple imprisonment, provided the duration of such internment or imprisonment is proportionate to the offence committed. Furthermore, internment or imprisonment shall, for such offences, be the only measure adopted for depriving protected persons of liberty. The courts provided for under Article 66 of the present Convention may at their discretion convert a sentence of imprisonment to one of internment for the same period.
The penal provisions promulgated by the Occupying Power in accordance with Articles 64 and 65 may impose the death penalty on a protected person only in cases where the person is guilty of espionage, of serious acts of sabotage against the military installations of the Occupying Power or of intentional offences which have caused the death of one or more persons, provided that such offences were punishable by death under the law of the occupied territory in force before the occupation began.
The death penalty may not be pronounced against a protected person unless the attention of the court has been particularly called to the fact that since the accused is not a national of the Occupying Power, he is not bound to it by any duty of allegiance.
In any case, the death penalty may not be pronounced against a protected person who was under eighteen years of age at the time of the offence.​
Any hostile action taken on the part of the Palestinians, solely intended to harm the Occupying Power (the Israeli), is punishable.  Make no mistake.  That is in black'n'white.  However, Rule #5 Customary IHL covers all civilians everywhere.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## RoccoR (Nov 20, 2014)

P F Tinmore,  _et al,_

And you would be wrong in suggesting that.



P F Tinmore said:


> I am just saying what The Fourth Geneva Convention says.


(COMMENT)

See Posting #117.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## pbel (Nov 20, 2014)

MJB12741 said:


> Once again Israel got what Israel deserved for their treatment of Palestinians with peace offerings, a security fence & land concessions so the Palestinians can remain in Israel.  When will Israel ever learn to treat the Palestinians like their own Arab brothers do in surrounding Arab countries?
> 
> Prayer massacre Three Americans among four rabbis killed as Palestinian militants storm Jerusalem synagogue - AOL.com


Get real Krusty, the biggest terrorist attack on worshipers was committed by Dr. Baruch Goldstein by murdering 29 Palestinians and wounding 125...

Now its been reported that his grave is a shrine...Israel is the cause of retribution and hate, and despair...


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## toastman (Nov 20, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


 In your dreams

Palestine is inside Israel . Palestine doesn't even have borders. 

Funny how you consider Palestine to be different than what the whole world considers it.


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## toastman (Nov 20, 2014)

pbel said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



YOU idiot. I just said the same thing as you did regarding Palestine. Learn how to read.


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## pbel (Nov 20, 2014)

toastman said:


> pbel said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...


I deleted my post after realizing it...


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## toastman (Nov 20, 2014)

pbel said:


> MJB12741 said:
> 
> 
> > Once again Israel got what Israel deserved for their treatment of Palestinians with peace offerings, a security fence & land concessions so the Palestinians can remain in Israel.  When will Israel ever learn to treat the Palestinians like their own Arab brothers do in surrounding Arab countries?
> ...


No, Palestinian parents and Hamas teaching kids hatred and that killing Israelis is good, is the cause of retribution, hate and despair.


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## MJB12741 (Nov 20, 2014)

This whole ongoing conflict is primarilly Israel's fault for not just treating the Palestinians like their own Arab brothers do.  No one or no nation ever made peace WITH Palestinians.  But king Hussein of Jordan proved you can make peace FROM Palestinians.  When will Israel ever learn?


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## pbel (Nov 20, 2014)

MJB12741 said:


> This whole ongoing conflict is primarilly Israel's fault for not just treating the Palestinians like their own Arab brothers do.  No one or no nation ever made peace WITH Palestinians.  But king Hussein of Jordan proved you can make peace FROM Palestinians.  When will Israel ever learn?


Exactly Krusty! Exhort those ZioNazis to be more li9ke real Nazis to solve their problem!


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## pbel (Nov 20, 2014)

toastman said:


> pbel said:
> 
> 
> > MJB12741 said:
> ...


Its hard not to teach to hate the people who disenfranchised you from your homes and kills you when you resist...Honestly why would the Palestinians not teach hate of their oppressor?


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## Sunni Man (Nov 20, 2014)

toastman said:


> No, Palestinian parents and Hamas teaching kids hatred and that killing Israelis is good, is the cause of retribution, hate and despair.


The parents don't have to teach their children about hate and despair.

All the Palestinian children have to do is step outside of their home and see the death and destruction the Israeli IDF has inflicted on the their own families and neighborhood.    .....


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## Roudy (Nov 20, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> Some interesting stuff on Synagogue security in Jerusalem:
> 
> Israelis visiting synagogues in Western Europe for the first time are often astonished by the level of security: private security guards, community volunteers, uniformed police and advanced surveillance systems are the norm. Moreover, in the few Muslim countries with still-functioning Jewish congregations, like Turkey or Tunisia, synagogues operate in fortified compounds.
> 
> ...



Nah, savages will be savages. They blow up and attack churches, Shiite mosques, and synagogues.  Nothing is sacred to them, and anything goes.


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## MJB12741 (Nov 20, 2014)

pbel said:


> MJB12741 said:
> 
> 
> > This whole ongoing conflict is primarilly Israel's fault for not just treating the Palestinians like their own Arab brothers do.  No one or no nation ever made peace WITH Palestinians.  But king Hussein of Jordan proved you can make peace FROM Palestinians.  When will Israel ever learn?
> ...



HUH?  Why are you now referring to the Arabs as Nazis?


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## MrDVS1 (Nov 20, 2014)

QUOTE]

In the end - people are in control of their own actions.  They can choose to attack unarmed innocents or they can attack other targets.  When they do something like this - it doesn't help their cause at all.

And yes, Goldstein is still worshipped and made excuses for in some areas, particularly by settlers - but it's not mainstream.[/QUOTE]

It's the leadership, oh wait, the mainstream elects the leadership, well then I guess it's all mainstream.


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## MrDVS1 (Nov 20, 2014)

toastman said:


> pbel said:
> 
> 
> > MJB12741 said:
> ...



Your not trying to tell us that Israelis don't teach their children to hate are you? BTW, who taught you to hate.


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## pbel (Nov 20, 2014)

MJB12741 said:


> pbel said:
> 
> 
> > MJB12741 said:
> ...


Exception made for Senility, I defer...


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## aris2chat (Nov 20, 2014)

* Politics Can't Explain the Israeli Synagogue Attack. Only Hatred Can. *
* By Yishai Schwartz @YishaiSchwartz *
They came with meat cleavers and pistols. A little after 7 a.m. on Tuesday, as Jewish worshippers were completing the silent _Amidah _prayer in a Jerusalem synagogue, two men began shooting and hacking at those trapped inside. Four of the worshippers—all rabbis, three of whom were American and one English—are dead. One of the police respondents, a member of Israel’s Arab Druze community, is in critical condition. Images of the immediate aftermath show sacred books, prayers shawls, and the straps of _tefillin _strewn among bodies and blood.

The citizenship and piety of the victims is largely immaterial—this was simply brutal, ideological murder. But the choice of victims does tell us something about where these murders come from, and what they mean politically.

In recent weeks, the usual hum of low-grade Palestinian incitement has been raised to a fever pitch. There have been allegations of murder and paranoid rumors of Israeli plans to dismantle Muslim sanctuaries. Lone-wolf terrorists have rammed their cars into crowds and stabbed young commuters at bus stops. The Israeli security forces, expert in disrupting networks and intercepting infiltrations, have found themselves helpless to stop it. How do you predict an attack by a single local resident armed only with a car and a kitchen knife?

There is irony in the latest attack. The synagogue was in Har Nof, an ultra-Orthodox neighborhood in West Jerusalem. The worshippers lived in internationally recognized Israel and almost certainly never served in the army. They would never approach the Temple Mount, the holy site where recent visits by Jews have supposedly triggered the latest wave of Palestinian violence, because they believe that God’s law forbids it. In other words, these worshippers should be among the least offensive to Palestinians.

This is not to say that, for instance, last week’s murder of 26-year-old Dalia Lemkus was less obscene because it happened near a West Bank settlement. But the senselessness and brutality of the synagogue assault, and the otherworldliness of the victims, lays bare the inadequacy of rational political explanations for terror. No doubt the murderers had their grievances (and some perhaps were reasonable), but the butchery in Har Nof shows that any sense of strategy has been overwhelmed by hate. The murder of non-Zionist Torah scholars is an attack on Jews more than Israel, and explaining it requires an understanding of hatred, not of politics. Perhaps the current celebrations throughout the West Bank and Gaza—replete with songs of praise on mosque loudspeakers and the festival-like delivery of sweets to children—goes at least part of the way to providing that.

Rarely has it been clearer: these men were killed simply because they were Jews living in the land of Israel. That they were rabbis killed at prayer is a potent symbol of the attack's senselessess, but their orthodoxy also serves as evidence of how utterly self-defeating Palestinian terrorism is.

The ultra-Orthodox, after all, are some of the most pragmatic and powerful players in Israeli politics. For the last two decades, the ultra-Orthodox parties have been kingmakers, key to the governments of both right and left due to their flexibility on negotiations with the Palestinians. It was the largest of these parties, Shas, that offered Yitzchak Rabin the crucial coalition support he needed to proceed to the Oslo accords. Together, the two main ultra-Orthodox parties hold 18 seats in Israel’s 120-seat, famously fractious parliament. Any conceivable left-leaning coalition would rely on their votes.

But in recent years, the ultra-Orthodox shifted strongly in the direction of the hawks. This shift, and its reasons, has mirrored the rest of Israeli society, and it has very little to with revisionist or expansionist ideology. The ultra-Orthodox, dismissive of Israel’s secular establishment and content to wait for the messiah, continue to be among those least ideologically committed to Jewish sovereignty over the land. But their confidence in the Palestinians and their leadership, in their willingness or ability to stop incitement and curb terrorism, has diminished dramatically.

To many Israelis today, it no longer matters that Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas’s security forces work well with Israel or that he is clearly preferable to Hamas. (Abbas condemned today’s attack while blaming it on Israeli incitement; Hamas simply welcomed the murders.) But preferable does not mean acceptable. And when Abbas's calls for a “holy war” against Jewish “contamination” of the Temple Mount is answered with butcher knives in a synagogue, the preferable does not seem acceptable at all. So the same pragmatism that convinced ultra-Orthodox leadership to back the peace process will continue to turn their rank-and-file against the Israeli Left. Even Aryeh Deri, the wiliest and most dovish among ultra-Orthodoxy’s political leaders will find himself inexorably pulled rightward.

Zionism has always required a balance between the aspirational and the pragmatic. Israel’s most deft leaders threaded the needle between the desire for the resurrection of ancient Jewish sovereignty and the compromises necessary for peace. For years, the pragmatists, those who could put in perspective the starry-eyed yearning for expansive Jewish sovereignty, were the champions of negotiation. But now it’s those pragmatic negotiators who seem starry-eyed, and to the residents of Har Nof, more walls and checkpoints will seem the safer bet.


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## pbel (Nov 20, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> * Politics Can't Explain the Israeli Synagogue Attack. Only Hatred Can. *
> * By Yishai Schwartz @YishaiSchwartz *
> They came with meat cleavers and pistols. A little after 7 a.m. on Tuesday, as Jewish worshippers were completing the silent _Amidah _prayer in a Jerusalem synagogue, two men began shooting and hacking at those trapped inside. Four of the worshippers—all rabbis, three of whom were American and one English—are dead. One of the police respondents, a member of Israel’s Arab Druze community, is in critical condition. Images of the immediate aftermath show sacred books, prayers shawls, and the straps of _tefillin _strewn among bodies and blood.
> 
> ...





aris2chat said:


> * Politics Can't Explain the Israeli Synagogue Attack. Only Hatred Can. *
> * By Yishai Schwartz @YishaiSchwartz *
> They came with meat cleavers and pistols. A little after 7 a.m. on Tuesday, as Jewish worshippers were completing the silent _Amidah _prayer in a Jerusalem synagogue, two men began shooting and hacking at those trapped inside. Four of the worshippers—all rabbis, three of whom were American and one English—are dead. One of the police respondents, a member of Israel’s Arab Druze community, is in critical condition. Images of the immediate aftermath show sacred books, prayers shawls, and the straps of _tefillin _strewn among bodies and blood.
> 
> ...


*
Baruch Goldstein - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Baruch Kopel Goldstein* (Hebrew: *ברוך קופל גולדשטיין*‎; December 9, 1956 – February 25, 1994) was an American-born Israeli physician and religious extremist. He is known for being the mass murderer[2] who perpetrated the 1994 Cave of the Patriarchs massacre in the city of Hebron, killing 29 Palestinian Muslim worshipers and wounding another 125.[3][4]
The Israeli government condemned the massacre and responded by arresting followers of Meir Kahane, forbidding certain settlers from entering Palestinian towns and demanding that those settlers turn in their army-issued rifles.[5] The Israeli government also took extreme measures against Palestinians following the massacre, banning them from certain streets in Hebron, such as Al-Shuhada Street, where many Palestinians have homes and businesses, and opening them to the exclusive access of Jewish settlers and tourists.[6]
Goldstein's gravesite became a pilgrimage site for Jewish extremists.[7] Upon the tomb, the following words are inscribed: “He gave his life for the people of Israel, its Torah and land.”[6] In 1999, after the passing of Israeli legislation outlawing monuments to terrorists, the Israeli Army dismantled the shrine that had been built to Goldstein at the site of his interment. The tombstone and its epitaph, calling Goldstein a martyr with clean hands and a pure heart, was left untouched.[8]


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## aris2chat (Nov 20, 2014)

*'The Muslims Don't Understand - We Don't Want Al-Aqsa'*
Ramat Gan Chief Rabbi explains Al-Aqsa Mosque is outside the Temple boundaries, but Islam's focus on force prevents coexistence.

By Yishai Karov, Ari Yashar
First Publish: 11/20/2014, 5:30 PM





Al Aqsa Mosque (bottom-left) is outside the Temple Mount according to Jewish tradition
Nati Shohat/Flash 90
Ramat Gan Chief Rabbi and prominent religious-Zionist scholar Rabbi Ya'akov Ariel spoke to _Arutz Sheva_ about the tensions over the Temple Mount, the holiest site in Judaism which has been at the center of attempts by Palestinian Authority and Islamist leaders to incite a religious war.

Despite being Judaism's holiest site Jews are prevented from praying on the Mount and Jewish visits are severely restricted, due to threats of violence from Muslim leaders.

Islamists and PA officials, including Mahmoud Abbas, regularly accuse Jewish visitors to the Mount of attempting to "storm the Al Aqsa Mosque." Al Aqsa mosque - not to be confused with the golden-domed Dome of the Rock shrine - is the largest of several mosques at the site, where the ancient Jewish Temples once stood.

But In fact, Rabbi Ariel pointed out, no religious Jews have ever attempted or asked to pray inside the mosque - and they have absolutely no desire to do so.

Referring to the binding of Yitzhak (Isaac) as related in the Torah - which took place at the site - Rabbi Ariel noted the Jewish patriarch "came down from the altar as a pure sacrifice whose entire goal was to serve G-d."

"To differentiate, it is known that the Muslims adopted the idea of the binding and celebrate the sacrifice holiday (Eid al-Adha) of the 'binding of Ishmael,' and the messages of Ishmael are the complete opposite (of the binding of Yitzhak)," noted the rabbi, referring to the Islamic festival which co-opts the Biblical story but substitutes Yitzhak for his older half-brother and ancestor of the Arab nation Ishmael.

Ishmael "came down from the altar not as one who was (sacrificially) slaughtered, but as a slaughterer. That's the difference. He wanted to submit the whole world under him by force," Rabbi Ariel said of Islam's focus.

It is that fundamental theological difference which prevents many Muslims from understanding that Jewish demands for equal prayer rights on the Temple Mount - which is Judaism's holiest site - are not an attempt to prevent Muslims from praying there as well.

"They say we want Al-Aqsa (Mosque). Who wants Al-Aqsa? It's outside of the Temple Mount. It's very possible that it will remain even when the Temple is rebuilt!" said Rabbi Ariel, noting that the mosque itself stands outside of the sanctified areas of the Temple Mount according to Jewish tradition - though it is part of the wider complex.

"But because of their forcefulness they are convinced we too want to come to Al-Aqsa by force."

The rabbi's appraisal is backed by, among others, the writings of former Chief Rabbi of Israel Rabbi Shlomo Goren zt''l, who also noted that Al-Aqsa was built outside the boundaries of the Temple.


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## pbel (Nov 20, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> *'The Muslims Don't Understand - We Don't Want Al-Aqsa'*
> Ramat Gan Chief Rabbi explains Al-Aqsa Mosque is outside the Temple boundaries, but Islam's focus on force prevents coexistence.
> 
> By Yishai Karov, Ari Yashar
> ...


The demand by Israelis for Legitimacy in Arab E. Jerusalem by the World and UN needs to be in order...Israel according to International Law occupies E. Jerusalem by force...

Even if god came down from the Heavens and told the Israelis to move on, they would defy...It will only be solved with force and the time will come from all political indicators.


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## aris2chat (Nov 20, 2014)

pbel said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > *'The Muslims Don't Understand - We Don't Want Al-Aqsa'*
> ...



First, there has been no official borders defined by negotiation with the palestinians.  Second, won half of Jerusalem in a defensive war after being attacked by foreign arab forces.  Third, Jerusalem was opened up to all faiths after Israel managed to take the western wall, the most holy site for Jews.  
Al-Aqsa is the muslims place of worship on the mount, but the mount itself should belong to all faiths, all those seeking a closer connection to god.
Omar cleaned and created the site for pilgrimage to all, much as Mecca was once a site of pilgrimage open to all faiths.  God (or what ever people perceive as a higher power) should not the be the domain of just one faith but inviting to anyone seek a spiritual connection and inner peace.

Palestinians in their hate and violence have lost all credible right to claim the mount as exclusively theirs, or the city of Jerusalem.  They have defiled al-Aqsa and their professed faith while practicing hate.  They have brought shame to Islam and to other muslims by their actions.


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## pbel (Nov 20, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> pbel said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...


No-one on Planet Earth believes this bullshit for the 67 Pre-Emptive invasion by Israe4. Even PM Begin admitted this motive in his memoirs...


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## montelatici (Nov 20, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> *'The Muslims Don't Understand - We Don't Want Al-Aqsa'*
> Ramat Gan Chief Rabbi explains Al-Aqsa Mosque is outside the Temple boundaries, but Islam's focus on force prevents coexistence.
> 
> By Yishai Karov, Ari Yashar
> ...



"Defensive War"  how Orwellian. LOL 

Fact:  Jews came from Europe settled in Palestine and expelled the local people. That's the only thing one needs to know.


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## Kondor3 (Nov 20, 2014)

montelatici said:


> ...Fact:  Jews came from Europe settled in Palestine and expelled the local people. That's the only thing one needs to know.


If that's the extent of your position, then...

Fact: The Jews of Israel are there to stay, as their own nation, self-governed, and progressive.

Fact: the Palestinians of Old Palestine (and present-day Rump Palestine) and all of their Arab-Muslim nation-states have lost their bid to destroy Israel - repeatedly.

Fact: the Palestinians have lost their bid to re-acquire old lands or even to remain secure on the few surviving and disjointed scraps of land still under their control.

Fact: the Palestinians insist upon continued resistance and violence and hostility against Israel, even though there is no longer any hope whatsoever of winning.

Fact: Israel kicks their ass, every time that they commit violence - and in increasingly disproportionate rates, as the Israelis slowly harden their hearts and give up on talks.

Fact: the Palestinians are almost out of time to cut any kind of deal whatsoever, and face disaster, soon, if they don't recover their sanity and realize their predicament.


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## toastman (Nov 20, 2014)

Sunni Man said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > No, Palestinian parents and Hamas teaching kids hatred and that killing Israelis is good, is the cause of retribution, hate and despair.
> ...



False. Considering they are Muslims, they teach their kids hate and that murdering Israelis is a good deed . Palestinian parents often call their sons heroes after they just killed innocent Israelis. It's all part of the disgusting death cult called Islam  
True cancer in this world


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## toastman (Nov 20, 2014)

montelatici said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > *'The Muslims Don't Understand - We Don't Want Al-Aqsa'*
> ...



Fact: Jews were massacred many time before any Arab was expelled. They were expelled AFTER 5 Arab armies invaded the region and attacked Israel. 
You just love skipping those parts of history, don't you ?


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## toastman (Nov 20, 2014)

MrDVS1 said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > pbel said:
> ...


No, they don't. I have never heard of Israeli parent encouraging their kids to kill innocent Palestinians. 

What makes you think I was taught to hate?


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## Sunni Man (Nov 20, 2014)

toastman said:


> What makes you think I was taught to hate?


Judging by your daily posts that are full of venom and pure hatred.

I would guess you where taught to hate at a very early age.   .......


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## mudwhistle (Nov 20, 2014)

MJB12741 said:


> Once again Israel got what Israel deserved for their treatment of Palestinians with peace offerings, a security fence & land concessions so the Palestinians can remain in Israel.  When will Israel ever learn to treat the Palestinians like their own Arab brothers do in surrounding Arab countries?
> 
> Prayer massacre Three Americans among four rabbis killed as Palestinian militants storm Jerusalem synagogue - AOL.com



Nonsense. Surrounding Arab countries treat the Palestinians like shit.

Israel should expell every Muslim from the country and then bulldoze their homes.


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## toastman (Nov 20, 2014)

Sunni Man said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > What makes you think I was taught to hate?
> ...


Obviously you're talking about yourself Sunni Welfare Troll.

You spend everyday spreading hated about Jews, mocking the Holocaust, Calling Blacks neegros, lying about Israel. 
We could write a book about all the hateful crap you've posted. Are you hateful because you're on welfare?? 
I think it's because you're Muslim and Islam & hate go hand in hand. Muslim on welfare = Bad Combination


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## toastman (Nov 20, 2014)

Sunni Man said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > What makes you think I was taught to hate?
> ...


BTW, what posts are you talking about ?


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## Humanity (Nov 20, 2014)

toastman said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



What is it with you and welfare taunts?

Is it because you have some kind of hang up about picking up your welfare cheque every week?

I think they call that kind of phenomena 'transference' Toasty...

Get over it man!


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## aris2chat (Nov 20, 2014)

toastman said:


> MrDVS1 said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



Children do not know hate.  You can put a mix of toddlers and children in the same room without conflict.  Hate is taught, mostly in the home but also through peer pressure by olders in the neighborhood.  They are taught by how they see others behave and speak.
Hate is not natural.


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## Sunni Man (Nov 20, 2014)

toastman said:


> Obviously you're talking about yourself Sunni Welfare Troll.
> 
> You spend everyday spreading hated about Jews, mocking the Holocaust, Calling Blacks neegros, lying about Israel.
> We could write a book about all the hateful crap you've posted. Are you hateful because you're on welfare??
> I think it's because you're Muslim and Islam & hate go hand in hand. Muslim on welfare = Bad Combination


The difference is Toastman.

I generally make posts about the topic under debate.

Whereas, about 90% of your posts are about personally attacking the poster.


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## Phoenall (Nov 20, 2014)

theliq said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > fanger said:
> ...






 Isnt that the excuse made for the Palestinians when they attack the Jews, that they were forced into it by their deprivation and mental state. Seems that mohameds mental infirmity has been passed down through interbreeding


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## fanger (Nov 20, 2014)

Whats the Jew excuse


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## Coyote (Nov 20, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > MrDVS1 said:
> ...



I totally agree.  It has to be taught.  One of the more frightening things about ISIS, and it's control over the education in the areas it controls, is that it can mold the minds of thousands of young children who won't know any better.


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## aris2chat (Nov 20, 2014)

You've got to be taught
To hate and fear,
You've got to be taught
From year to year,
It's got to be drummed
In your dear little ear
You've got to be carefully taught.
You've got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made,
And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade,
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught before it's too late,
Before you are six or seven or eight,
To hate all the people your relatives hate,
You've got to be carefully taught!

~  Rodgers and Hammerstein


You ve Got to Be Carefully Taught - Rodgers and Hammerstein Lyrics and Chords


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## aris2chat (Nov 20, 2014)

The chain of incidents has gone so far as to have Samarian girls to attack arab drivers.
This not about land or statehood, this has become about mulsims vs non-muslims, even radical/militant muslims vs moderate muslims.
This is a can of worms not easily put back and resealed.
A game changer.


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## Coyote (Nov 20, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> You've got to be taught
> To hate and fear,
> You've got to be taught
> From year to year,
> ...




So my song for you this evening, it's not to make you sad
Nor for adding to the sorrows of our troubled northern land
But lately I've been thinking and it just won't leave my mind
I'll tell you of two friends of mine who were both good friends of mine
Isaac Scott from Banagh, he lived just across the fields
A great man for the music, the dancing and the reels
McDonald came from South Armagh to court young Alice fair
And we often met on the Ryan Road and laughter filled the air

-Chorus-
There were roses, roses
There were roses
And the tears of a people ran together

Now Isaac he was Protestant and Sean was Catholic born
But it never made a difference, for the friendship it was strong
And sometimes in the evening when we heard the sound of drums
We said it won't divide us, we always will be one

For the ground our fathers plowed in, the soil it is the same
And the places where we say our prayers have just got different names
We talked about the friends who'd died and hoped there'd be no more
It was little then we realized the tragedy in store

-Chorus-

It was on a Sunday morning when the awful news came round
Another killing had been done just outside Newry Town
We knew that Isaac danced up there, we knew he liked the band
But when we heard that he was dead we just could not understand

We gathered round the graveside on a cold and rainy day
The minister he closed his eyes and for no revenge he prayed
And all of us who knew him from along the Ryan Road
We bowed our heads and said a prayer for the resting of his soul

-Chorus-

Now fear it filled the countryside there was fear in every home
When late at night a car came prowling round the Ryan Road
A Catholic would be killed tonight to even up the score
Oh Christ it's young McDonald they've taken from the door

Isaac was my friend! he cried, he begged them with his tears
*But centuries of hatred have ears that do not hear
An eye for an eye, it was all that filled their minds
And another eye for another eye till everyone is blind*

-Chorus-

So my song for you this evening, it's not to make you sad
Nor for adding to the sorrows of our troubled northern land
But lately I've been thinking and it just won't leave my mind
I'll tell you of two friends of mine who were both good friends of mine

Now I don't know where the moral is or where this song should end
But I wonder just how many wars are fought between good friends
And those who give the orders are not the ones to die
It's Scott and McDonald and the likes of you and I

There were roses, roses
There were roses
And the tears of a people ran together
There were roses, roses
There were roses....


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## toastman (Nov 20, 2014)

Sunni Man said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Obviously you're talking about yourself Sunni Welfare Troll.
> ...



Nothing I say about you is a personal attack..... It's all 100% true :cool


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## Sunni Man (Nov 20, 2014)

toastman said:


> Nothing I say about you is a personal attack..... It's all 100% true :cool


True or not.......when your posts are directed towards the other poster and not the topic at hand.......it's a personal attack.

Surely, even though you are a juden, are able to see the difference.    .....


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## aris2chat (Nov 20, 2014)

Coyote said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > You've got to be taught
> ...



I know in Lebanon we had students in the upper classes that on weekends might well have been shooting at each other and sat side by side or even share dorm rooms during the school week.
When the school was threatened they were shoulder to shoulder  protecting the school, students and teachers against syrian military forces that wanted the school as a based.
Politically and religiously they were placed in the position of enemy by their communities but they also share so many goals for their school, education and country.
It was one of the many ironies of civil war.
Even at home we entertained those from opposing families and political parties and they behaved as friends but beyond our living room they ordered the death of members of the other.  Too much blood by those who shared food, drink and laughter with each other.

Brother fighting brother, father fighting son in many cases.


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## Coyote (Nov 20, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



This is digressing a bit, but one of horrible things about the conflicts in the Balkans after the break up of the USSR was the re-emergence of ancient ethnic grudges and people who had formerly lived as neighbors were suddenly finding themselves enemies.  Listening to some of the stories was heart breaking.  I can't imagine killing someone I knew like that.  People fleeing their neighbors unable to understand what was happening.  Crazyness.


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## aris2chat (Nov 20, 2014)

*Talking out loud – Islam needs a reboot *
By Ahson Saeed Hasan 






The Muslim holy site of the Dome of the Rock on the Al Aqsa mosque compound in the Old City of Jerusalem. PHOTO: AFP

*At the very outset, let me clarify that I am neither a religious scholar nor do I have disciplined knowledge about theMuslim faith. The views expressed in this article are purely based on the perspective that one has developed over the course of the past many years. This is by no means a critique of a faith that millions of folks all over the world follow.*

To begin with, as paradoxical and contradictory it may sound, amidst all this opulent irreverence, the Muslims claim that there is a ‘back-to-religion’ movement the world over, as a reaction to the incessant indulgence in pleasures of the flesh or maybe as a refuge from the feeling of emptiness it leaves within. The religion is attracting more adherents compared to other faiths. Interestingly, many of the new converts and the ‘not-so-happy Muslims’ are keen to find out for themselves how the ‘old faithful’ are handling their religious commitments. What is attracting them to Islam is its _claim_ that it abhors rituals like the ones elaborated by the Catholic Church or the ceremonials adopted by the Brahmin to elevate himself into a superior caste.

The religion is based on a complete code of life combining the spiritual with the temporal. But what is offering the greatest attraction to the common folk? To the Afro-Americans, in particular is Islam’s stern repudiation and rejection of any distinction of race, colour, caste or social standing.

The _outsider’s_ quest for true Islam should induce the followers of the faith to re-examine themselves and to see if they are repelling and driving away the new converts or helping them consolidate their faith. Some tough questions, therefore, need to be answered and a minute soul-searching is called for.

The first point we have to bear in mind is that _more mosques do not necessarily mean more Islam_ or greater compliance with the Islamic code of life. If that were true, the estimated five-fold increase in the number of mosques across the land since the establishment of a country like Pakistan should have resulted in evidence of more devotion, piety and piousness.

Unfortunately, that has not happened.

If anything, there has been a terrible deterioration in the overall national character, which includes religious intolerance, hatred amongst various sects of Muslims, and a virtual nullification of the good and the virtuous.

It is indeed reprehensible, and Muslims will have to admit, that today they have more of dishonesty and debauchery, and more of normal failings than ever before. The worst of it is the insensitivity toward other religions and disrespect for those who do not ‘qualify’ to be regarded as Muslims. What ISIS demonstrates, therefore, is an absolute brutal decline/downfall in the fortunes of Muslims the world over.

Muslims need to look into the phenomenon more closely without inventing excuses or shifting blame. There are, undoubtedly, economic forces that are grinding the followers of Islam down to desperation and there also is the communication revolution that provides a vision of a more colourful life in the _hereafter_, all have contributed to the quandary, to the situation in which Muslims find themselves today.

Worst of all, Muslim religious divines, instead of rebuilding/reconstructing the overall Islamic character, are busy brainwashing the young for waging _jihad_ on the Jews and the Christians.

This begs the question*: *what has Islam done to save Muslims from this disastrous fate?

The answer is to be found in separating the spiritual from the temporal in flagrant renunciation of one of the basic principles of the Muslim faith – namely that Islam is a complete, ‘indivisible’ code of conduct. Muslims seem to have split between Christ and Caesar.

Furthermore, this state of affairs points to the inadequacy of the sort of religious teaching that induces compliance with its tenets. Learning the Holy Quran by heart or reciting it with fervour is hugely commendable. But the real benefit accrues only from a comprehension of the crux of God’s message. Most _khateebs_ (Muslim religious scholars) in their sermons tend to dwell on the supernatural and the far-fetched, and try to regulate the lives of their followers with stories they think will excite and hold their interest, while others seek to enhance their popularity by arousing sentiments on parochial sectarian/religious issues.

It is difficult to figure out how much of it is prompted by ulterior, materialistic motives.

The first fault can possibly be easily remedied by convincing the _khateebs_ that what the Muslim society needs most today is convincing the followers that observance of _Haqooqul Abad_ (rights of the people) is at least as important as _Haqooq-Allah_ (rights of God), if not more; that is to say, while God might condone missing a prayer or two (out of the five mandatory ones during the course of the day), He will not forgive any wrongs to our fellow human beings, irrespective of their race, creed or religion.

On a larger scale, suicide bombings are not allowed; taking away innocent lives in the name of God is absolutely a no-go area; crashing planes into buildings and playing havoc with other nation’s integrity in order to ‘teach them a lesson’ is perhaps the most intrusive form of recklessness that characterises modern-day Islam.

The _khateebs_ will be doing a greater service to the society and Islam by driving home these points related to everyday life and, in the meantime, refrain from entertaining their listeners/followers with fascinating stories/tales of ‘another world’. More than that, their sermons will carry conviction only if people see them practice what they preach. Ironically, they do sermonise equality and brotherhood during _Hajj_ sermon, yet, the Saudi royal family has an exclusive enclosure in the _Kaaba._ Is it hypocrisy or is there something inherently wrong with Islam?

The religious divines who take upon themselves the onus of determining which sect is right and which is wrong or who is a good Muslim and who is a _kafir_ are being too presumptuous, rather audacious. God has not entrusted them with any such mission. Frequently their own party is in question, and by defying God’s directive against setting judgment over faith of fellow Muslims or those from other faiths, to the extent of killing them, they render themselves liable to be treated as any other murderer – a common criminal who deserves no mercy. In fact, they merit divine wrath of dividing the Muslim world.

One does notice that a lot many Muslim countries indulge in sectarian strife at the state level. We would have been sparred of the wrath of the Taliban had the Saudis been not so keen on spreading Wahabism in the Muslim world. They are a classic example of inciting intra-Muslim dissension and using their oil money to fight their ‘war’ for political, economic and sectarian primacy.

Worse still is the racial bias that, despite the religion’s strict prohibition of any distinction between Muslims (save on the basis of piety), still shows up consistently. The way almost all Arab States lined up with Iraq back in the decade of 1980s in its aggression against Iran profoundly compromised the religion’s claim to be a unifying force that makes no distinction among its followers on the basis of race, colour or culture.

There is also a feeling that the Arabs do not take the same measure of interest in overall Islamic causes the Muslim world collectively does on issues that are a primary concern to the Arabs; the issue of Palestine is the case in hand.

Finally, it is flagrant failures of the so-called practicing members of the Muslim world to comply with the basics of the Islamic moral code that is causing deep distress and disillusionment amongst those who can be regarded as the silent minority. What angers them even more is the pretence of being ‘superior’ Muslims by virtue of the fact that they follow the Islamic practices habitually even though they violate the fundamental tenets of the faith. But for this blatant hypocrisy, a lot more people the world over might have been swarming into the Islamic world.

Despite the change of times, Muslims enjoy unprecedented freedom in the United States to worship and preach their faith. Young Muslims who come here for education worship together as Muslims and not as Shiites or Sunnis, Indians or Pakistanis – bow, pray, plead and implore forgiveness from their Lord, mix-up with each other without prejudice or discrimination. The fact that most of them are educated and enlightened and act the same way enables them to rise above parochial, sectarian and ethnic interests, and work for the betterment of the community as a whole.

As for ‘the politicised Muslims’, things will not improve unless the teachings of the ‘real Islam’ are followed; an Islam without sloganeering against Jews, Hindus, Christians, Shiites or Sunnis; an Islam without moral and spiritual corruption; an Islam without guns and grenades, suicide bombings and the ‘grand plans’ to destroy the West; an Islam which grants due respect to any one and every human being; an Islam which provides rights to all individuals irrespective of their colour, caste, creed, sect or religion; an Islam that leads by example.

Muslims need to stop pointing fingers at other religions and take stock of their own situation. They need to learn from other faiths; respect the ideals for which the followers of those faiths stand for; preach peace instead of prejudice that ends up in abstract hatred that conveys no sense whatsoever.

Muslims need to loosen up! Confining the religion to orthodoxy hasn’t gotten them anywhere. In fact, so far, it appears that it has been a campaign, a mad rush for the dark ages! For some odd reason, Muslim countries seem to follow their ‘Arab (read Wahabi) brethren’ and look for a leadership role from the sheikhs. It is a faulty arrangement. Can there be a separate and distinct leadership that can be created? Can the moderate Muslim countries come forward, take the lead and enlighten the Muslims?

May be one day or may be never.

However, what Islam really needs now is a self-sustaining movement within the enlightened spheres. For starters, taking the route of _ijma_ and _ijtehad_ (religious consultation to keep pace with the changing times) may not be a bad idea. This process of consultation does not necessarily have to be conducted by the bearded and the turbaned but people who wear suits and ties, jeans and khakis, who can probably take the initiative and thereby end up doing a much better job.

Islam needs better leadership. The followers, the sincere ones and not the wretched al Qaeda, ISIS or the Wahabi crowd, have to make hard choices. This is the time to put the house in order. This is the historical opportunity to make amends and seek forgiveness from those who have been hurt, bruised and battered by militant Islam and make a decision, once and for all times to come, that the faith itself is all about universal peace and harmony and free from those draconian hollowness of violence and aggression. Like a computer system that needs some servicing, Islam needs a reflecting reboot.


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## aris2chat (Nov 20, 2014)

Coyote said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



A palestinian colonel that lived in our building was the target of a bomb planted, on orders of Arafat, in his care while visiting his wife in the hospital after delivering their first child, a boy.  It went off when the driver went to pull the car to the front of the hospital.  Too many killed and injured but the colonel and I had only mild injuries, we were among the lucky.
Yes, friends have killed friends.  The security officer and friend to the president elect actually tried to kill him several times, killing his daughter waiting in the car for her father to come down from the office to go home.
Friends in childhood became political enemies and one had the other assassinated in his home along with some members of his family.  Ironically  the surviving children of both had the same godfather and guardian, so they were raised in large part together as family.
I used to be politically opposed to my godfather when he was president, and my father was for years one of his advisers, also to several other of the presidents.  Families too often find themselves as opponents in the game of politics.  People need to take a stand or pick certain alliances for expedience or security, not out of any deep belief in issues.  They justify a wrong for what at the time might be greater stability.  You maneuver to survive or win the game, not out of any real allegiance to a cause, except perhaps their own.  You do what you must even if it is morally wrong.
Same reasoning as muslims attacking a synagogue, or so they try to claim but making the perpetrators into heros in the streets of gaza as they celebrate and pass out sweets and chant death to jews.  There are lines that can be bent and lines that should not be crossed.  The rabbis at prayer inside a synagogue crossed the line.  The palestinians were not defending anything except the hate they were taught.  They did not achieve any advantage except to incite both sides to a boiling point on the verge of erupting.  The result will be nothing except more divide and more death on both sides.
Both people of the book, the same prophets in most cases but bothers killing brothers over a rock that is symbolic of gods love for mankind.

Listen, children, to a story
That was written long ago,
'Bout a kingdom on a mountain
And the valley-folk below.

On the mountain was a treasure
Buried deep beneath the stone,
And the valley-people swore
They'd have it for their very own.

Go ahead and hate your neighbor,
Go ahead and cheat a friend.
Do it in the name of Heaven,
You can justify it in the end.
There won't be any trumpets blowing
Come the judgement day,
On the bloody morning after....
One tin soldier rides away.

So the people of the valley
Sent a message up the hill,
Asking for the buried treasure,
Tons of gold for which they'd kill.

Came an answer from the kingdom,
"With our brothers we will share
All the secrets of our mountain,
All the riches buried there."

Go ahead and hate your neighbor,
Go ahead and cheat a friend.
Do it in the name of Heaven,
You can justify it in the end.
There won't be any trumpets blowing
Come the judgement day,
On the bloody morning after....
One tin soldier rides away.

Now the valley cried with anger,
"Mount your horses! Draw your sword!"
And they killed the mountain-people,
So they won their just reward.

Now they stood beside the treasure,
On the mountain, dark and red.
Turned the stone and looked beneath it...
"Peace on Earth" was all it said.

Go ahead and hate your neighbor,
Go ahead and cheat a friend.
Do it in the name of Heaven,
You can justify it in the end.
There won't be any trumpets blowing
Come the judgement day,
On the bloody morning after....
One tin soldier rides away.

Go ahead and hate your neighbor,
Go ahead and cheat a friend.
Do it in the name of Heaven,
You can justify it in the end.
There won't be any trumpets blowing
Come the judgement day,
On the bloody morning after....
One tin soldier rides away. 

~ Dennis Lambert & Brian Potter


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## pbel (Nov 20, 2014)

Coyote said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


It is Human to resist an invader, hate has nothing to do with it!


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## pbel (Nov 20, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...


A Phalanges' like you has been taught to hate in Lebanon, how did you cope with it?


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## Kondor3 (Nov 20, 2014)

Sunni Man said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Nothing I say about you is a personal attack..... It's all 100% true :cool
> ...



Questions, people?


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## Hossfly (Nov 20, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...


1. What seems to be Sunni Boys major malfunction anyhow?


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## toastman (Nov 20, 2014)

Sunni Man said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Nothing I say about you is a personal attack..... It's all 100% true :cool
> ...



Sunni Welfare Troll, stop whining. You're not a mod. 

BTW, I've asked you this question in the past, but you never gave me an answer:
Why are you such an incredibly hateful and venomous person? I've never come across someone with so much pure hatred in them. Were you always like that, or did it start when you converted to Islam? :Or maybe because you're a poor peasant on welfare??


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## MJB12741 (Nov 20, 2014)

Sunni Man said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Nothing I say about you is a personal attack..... It's all 100% true :cool
> ...




No no, you see, the Juden in Israel are a bunch of Zionist assholes for abusing the Palestinians with peace offerings, a security fence & land concessions so they can remain in Israel instead of helping to free the Palestifnians back to their indigenous homelands.


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## Sunni Man (Nov 20, 2014)

Toastman, as a juden why do you want to derail a thread that's about some of your brethren who were allegedly murdered in a case of workplace violence?      .....


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## toastman (Nov 20, 2014)

Sunni Man said:


> Toastman, as a juden why do you want to derail a thread that's about some of your brethren who were allegedly murdered in a case of workplace violence?      .....



I asked a simple question Sunni Welfare Troll.....

I'm hoping when you get your next welfare check, you will be in a better mood


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## Sunni Man (Nov 20, 2014)

I feel sorry for the two Palestinian men who were assassinated in the synagogue by the rabid juden mob.

They were not allowed a trial to prove their innocence.   .....


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## toastman (Nov 20, 2014)

pbel said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



Hate has EVERYTHING to do with it. There is no one more hateful than Muslim Radicals.

Thank goodness these two 'Palestinians' are now rotting in hell with the rest of the Islamic scum Israel has killed   
It would be a waste of taxpayers money if they were in an Israeli jail.


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## pbel (Nov 20, 2014)

toastman said:


> pbel said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Your words are the poster boy of hate...


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## RoccoR (Nov 20, 2014)

toastman,  _et al,_

There is a problem, more practical then hate.



toastman said:


> Hate has EVERYTHING to do with it. There is no one more hateful than Muslim Radicals.
> 
> Thank goodness these two 'Palestinians' are now rotting in hell with the rest of the Islamic scum Israel has killed
> It would be a waste of taxpayers money if they were in an Israeli jail.


*(COMMENT)*

Because so many Palestinians openly support the various Palestinian terrorist, Jihadist and Fedayeen (etc, etc, etc) that it is extremely had to distinguish between the non-radicalized and the hostile Arab Palestinian.  Security systems and controls could be relaxed if there was some practical way to make a distinction between the Palestinian that merely objects to "occupation" and those that provide material support to the hostile elements that pose a real threat to regional security.

Unfortunately, that is impossible at this time.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## toastman (Nov 20, 2014)

pbel said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > pbel said:
> ...



You are BLIND if you cannot see the hatred portrayed by the Palestinians. Only people with immense hatred cheer, dance and hand out candy when innocent people are murdered.


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## pbel (Nov 20, 2014)

toastman said:


> pbel said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...


Of course they hate the occupation, the only way that MAY change is to at least go back to the 67 armistice lines recognized by the world at large...

You hate Palestinians, so did Baruch Goldstein, why? Because they resist an occupation like the vast majority of humanity? The murdering Goldstein's burial plot is an Israeli shrine, yet you complain of hate?

Get serious.


----------



## toastman (Nov 20, 2014)

pbel said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > pbel said:
> ...



I don't hate Palestinians. Palestinians hate Israelis. 

Who considers his grave a shrine ? A few radical Israelis ?? That's about it. The government condemned the attack and considers him a terrorist.
Whereas the Palestinian government consider their terrorists to be heroes. THAT'S the main difference Pbel. Palestinian government OPENLY encourages Palestinians to kill Israelis, and considers those who do so to be heroes. 

YOU ARE BLIND !


----------



## pbel (Nov 20, 2014)

toastman said:


> pbel said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...


*Thank goodness these two 'Palestinians' are now rotting in hell with the rest of the Islamic scum Israel has killed   
It would be a waste of taxpayers money if they were in an Israeli jail.*
*
All those highlighted words are yours, and they are nothing but unadulterated HATE!*


----------



## toastman (Nov 20, 2014)

pbel said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > pbel said:
> ...



How is it hate to be happy over the death of two people who just massacred innocent Israelis ? 

Wow Pbel. THAT'S your example of hate??? LAME !!


----------



## pbel (Nov 20, 2014)

toastman said:


> pbel said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...


the rest of the Islamic scum Israel has killed   

And what did you mean by this statement?


----------



## toastman (Nov 20, 2014)

pbel said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > pbel said:
> ...



Obviously I'm talking about Islamic terrorists that Israel has killed. Why are you trying to test me. If you want to know weather I hate a certain race, nationality, ethnicity, just ask me!


----------



## pbel (Nov 20, 2014)

toastman said:


> pbel said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...


there is no doubt in my mind that Israelis and Palestinians hate each other, they are at war, but you a Zionist supporter too hate because you are a soldier for your ethnicity and I don't blame you.. But be honest, you hate.


----------



## montelatici (Nov 20, 2014)

toastman said:


> pbel said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



Do you think that non-Jews under Israeli Jew occupation and oppression are terrorists when they oppose the occupation and oppression terrorists?  Were the Irish freedom fighters terrorists?  Were the ANC terrorists? Give me a yes or no answer?


----------



## RoccoR (Nov 20, 2014)

_et al,_

This is a fallacious question.



montelatici said:


> Do you think that non-Jews under Israeli Jew occupation and oppression are terrorists when they oppose the occupation and oppression terrorists?  Were the Irish freedom fighters terrorists?  Were the ANC terrorists? Give me a yes or no answer?


*(COMMENT)*

Don't get sucked into this.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## pbel (Nov 20, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> _et al,_
> 
> This is a fallacious question.
> 
> ...


That's right, Morals and Justice are bothersome!


----------



## Coyote (Nov 20, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



Funny thing...that song is from one of my favorite movies (when I was in highschool) - Billy Jack.

I don't have anything to say except thank you for an insightful and provacative reply that I need to think about


----------



## Coyote (Nov 20, 2014)

pbel said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



Oh yes...it does.  Look at the Irish Troubles.

Hate prevents you from seeing "The Other" as human.

On all sides.


----------



## pbel (Nov 20, 2014)

Coyote said:


> pbel said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Well then, can you tell us of a war where the combatants did not hate each other?


----------



## Coyote (Nov 20, 2014)

toastman said:


> pbel said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



There are plenty of people as hateful or more hateful than "Muslim Radicals".  Have you paid any attention to affairs outside the Middle East?  Like maybe the Congo?  Mexico? (where 43 students were brutally murdered)?


----------



## Coyote (Nov 20, 2014)

pbel said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > pbel said:
> ...



No...but then I don't think I claimed love in combat.


----------



## toastman (Nov 20, 2014)

montelatici said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > pbel said:
> ...



Violent acts that are intended to cause fear, in order to achieve a political, religious or ideological goal, without distinguishing between Combatant and non Combatant is terrorism. What Palestinians that fall under that category are terrorist.
The 'opposing the occupation' excuse is getting really old, and it's just that; an excuse to attack Israelis/Jews. 
k
Do you consider what happened to the Rabbis to be an "opposing of the Occupation". In other words, do you think those Palestinians were right in what they did ?


----------



## aris2chat (Nov 20, 2014)

pbel said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Still trying to put labels on that do more to show your prejudice.  Friends don't make one a member of a group.  Some people I knew growing up became assassins and terrorist, and by association back then I should be labeled today as one?
If someone you grew up with became a drug dealer or gang member, would that make you one?

You have to try and put what in your mind are derogatory labels.  

Should we assume that your name stands for problem with basis learning and education.  Would you like to be labeled and judged like that every time you attempt to speak?

Such silliness.  It is more a reflection on your mindset than on my words.  You can call me a martian but that is not going to make me one except in your little mind.

You are funny


----------



## aris2chat (Nov 20, 2014)

Sunni Man said:


> I feel sorry for the two Palestinian men who were assassinated in the synagogue by the rabid juden mob.
> 
> They were not allowed a trial to prove their innocence.   .....



they came running out of the synagogue covered in blood and firing at the police, killing one policeman.  They were half way across the parking lot before going down.  The police didn't have much choice.
The palestinians did not given themselves up to stand trial.  They could have exited with hands up and let themselves be arrested, but they didn't.  Going down in blood makes them famous heroes in their neighborhood. 
...................and you think they should have let themselves be arrest and stand trial?  Explain it to the next would be terrorist and mass murderer.


----------



## theliq (Nov 20, 2014)

toastman said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...


Toastie....why do Americans always demean other Americans who happen to be on Welfare.........We Australians know we are better people....The true test of any Democracy is how to look after the less fortunate..........We have always been Winners.....you Guys haven't left the starting blocks yet.......Wake Up America.....and Stop HATING EACH OTHER.......The Starting Pistol Fired Years Ago


----------



## theliq (Nov 20, 2014)

toastman said:


> MrDVS1 said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...


Stop being SO STUPID Toastie.........I hear it all the time......This Comment even for you at your most passionate........is ridiculous..steve


----------



## toastman (Nov 20, 2014)

theliq said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > MrDVS1 said:
> ...



You hear WHAT all the time ?


----------



## toastman (Nov 20, 2014)

theliq said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



I'm not American.

But you're right. Sorry for making fun of you for being on Welfare Sunni Troll


----------



## Beelzebub (Nov 20, 2014)

Just who is teaching hate here?


----------



## aris2chat (Nov 20, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> Just who is teaching hate here?



it is a non-lethal spray to disperse rioters and crowds.  Nothing a good shower won't wash off.


----------



## Beelzebub (Nov 20, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> Beelzebub said:
> 
> 
> > Just who is teaching hate here?
> ...



How do you shower the houses and streets?
Where are the crowds?


----------



## toastman (Nov 20, 2014)

This is the kind of hate that Palestinian kids are fed:


----------



## MJB12741 (Nov 20, 2014)

Want peace?  End the occupation by finding a way to send the Palestinians back to their native homelands.


----------



## toastman (Nov 20, 2014)




----------



## aris2chat (Nov 20, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Beelzebub said:
> ...


 
Safer than tear gas and is being used by other countries and police forces now.  Maybe palestinians should not incite crowds to the point where "skunk" even needs to be used.
At least they will remember it for awhile till the smell fades or washes away.


----------



## theliq (Nov 20, 2014)

toastman said:


> theliq said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...


Toastie,Jewish parents in Israel and Australia teaching their children to(as you put it)Hate Palestinians in this case........I have many Jewish friends(and Palestinian)and often the Aussie kid go over to Israel during their summer vacation and go to these schools where doctrination takes place...they come back very different children....often much to their parents disappointment...........so for you to say you have NEVER heard a parent or others indoctrinate children/young adults is just not true.In Ireland it was much the same between Catholics and Prodastants sic.....but they eventually resolved to peace,mainly led by women I may add.

I hope the Pali and Isi communities can work to do the same as you know....but I feel the ingrained bitterness on both sides is a major problem........when you have a people with ingrained(Ignorant to my mind) faith(no matter how insane it is,from my point of view) it is almost impossible to change peoples minds who are entrenched in the the 4th Century and before........the trouble is they can only espouse this type of thing, because they are living a standard of living created by modern thinking members of their respective communities. steve

the same can be said of certain Palestinians too of course.......it,like life is a two-way street.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Nov 21, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> You've got to be taught
> To hate and fear,
> You've got to be taught
> From year to year,
> ...


----------



## P F Tinmore (Nov 21, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> toastman,  _et al,_
> 
> There is a problem, more practical then hate.
> 
> ...


Occupations always have a problem with security. It comes with the territory.


----------



## Phoenall (Nov 21, 2014)

Sunni Man said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > No, Palestinian parents and Hamas teaching kids hatred and that killing Israelis is good, is the cause of retribution, hate and despair.
> ...





 While ignoring the terrorist attacks on Israeli children, or the commands in the Koran to kill the Jews. It seems that Mohamed passed on his mental illness to all his followers when he raped all those girls and impregnated them. Read a good story about your mo and his laws for muslims, that did not apply to him.


----------



## Phoenall (Nov 21, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > toastman,  _et al,_
> ...






Only if you let it, take full control and instigate tough legal measures and the violence will stop. Utilise the current Geneva conventions and start imposing fines on the inhabitants and see what happens. When they are faced with having no money and food they will soon stop acting like psychopaths, and turn on their leaders demanding they do something to feed their families.


----------



## Beelzebub (Nov 21, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> Beelzebub said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



Where are the crowds?


----------



## Roudy (Nov 21, 2014)

Sunni Man said:


> I feel sorry for the two Palestinian men who were assassinated in the synagogue by the rabid juden mob.
> 
> They were not allowed a trial to prove their innocence.   .....



While on the other hand, Sunni keeps going out of his way to expose mentally of a devout Moooooslem.  I for one want Sunni to continue with this, just to show everybody how depraved a true Muslim can be.


----------



## Roudy (Nov 21, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> _et al,_
> 
> This is a fallacious question.
> 
> ...



Yup.  Any barbarism and savagery is justifiable under the false premise of "occupation" and "resistance".   It's always the same series of explanations for these acts, regardless of where in the world you look.


----------



## toastman (Nov 21, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > I feel sorry for the two Palestinian men who were assassinated in the synagogue by the rabid juden mob.
> ...


I said the same thing.. He' a prime example of the hatred that Islam gives to the world


----------



## Roudy (Nov 21, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> Just who is teaching hate here?



I'd say skunk is like perfume compared to the way some of them smell.  Now there's a war crime if there ever was one. 

"They got sprayed by skunk! The horror! The horror!"  Ha ha ha. 

And yet, Palestinians themselves conduct public executions and dragging dead bodies of those who opposed them on a motorcycle to intimate their own population.  How does that compare to "skunk" you stinky Jew hater?


----------



## MJB12741 (Nov 21, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > toastman,  _et al,_
> ...



Yes, the Palestinian occupation of Israel's land must end if there is ever to be a lasting peace.


----------



## Roudy (Nov 21, 2014)

toastman said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



Well at least he's not trying to hide it, like some of the anti Semites here. You have to give him credit for being honest.


----------



## aris2chat (Nov 21, 2014)

pbel said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > pbel said:
> ...



I was referring to '48 when Jerusalem was split in half.  Jerusalem became one city open to all faith after '67.

and with the situation now, do you think an Imam should be attacked because he calls for moderation and denounces the killings of the rabbis?  Should any Imam or cleric that speaks of tolerance and non-violence be attacked?
There are riots in Jordan that have led to violence because the rabble support the killing of the rabbis ho were at prayer.  These were not men protesting or known  for advocating the rebuilding or the temple, or even for access to pray on the mount.  They were just quiet men of god at morning prayer.


----------



## Phoenall (Nov 21, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Beelzebub said:
> ...





Keep looking and listening and you see the rioters, stone throwers and terrorists getting sprayed, would you rather they be sprayed with napalm or  .45 calibre machine gun bullets ?


----------



## aris2chat (Nov 21, 2014)

Two young men on way to morning prayer were stabbed and beaten.


----------



## MJB12741 (Nov 21, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> Two young men on way to morning prayer were stabbed and beaten.[/QUOT
> 
> "Freedom fighters" did it.


----------



## teddyearp (Nov 21, 2014)

Steve, this was almost a good post, but I take pause in these two parts:



theliq said:


> not inflammatory rhetoric. . . . <snip>. ..last week a Palestinian bus driver was lynched by the Israeli youth mob



The first part is I find many of your posts inflammatory, as for the second part I would like to see some sort of proof to your claim as that is news to all of us.


----------



## teddyearp (Nov 21, 2014)

pbel said:


> Now its been reported that his grave is a shrine...Israel is the cause of retribution and hate, and despair...



Get your facts straight there bud.



> Goldstein's gravesite became a pilgrimage site for Jewish extremists.[7] Upon the tomb, the following words are inscribed: “He gave his life for the people of Israel, its Torah and land.”[6] In 1999, after the passing of Israeli legislation outlawing monuments to terrorists, the Israeli Army dismantled the shrine that had been built to Goldstein at the site of his interment. The tombstone and its epitaph, calling Goldstein a martyr with clean hands and a pure heart, was left untouched.[8]



Link:  Baruch Goldstein - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

So as my quote reports, the 'shrine' was removed, but eludes to the tombstone and epitaph being left alone.  However, it seems as though it too was covered:



> After the flagstones around it were pried away under the eye of a military chaplain, the ground was covered with gravel.



Link: Israel Destroys Shrine to Mosque Gunman - New York Times


----------



## teddyearp (Nov 21, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> * Politics Can't Explain the Israeli Synagogue Attack. Only Hatred Can.*
> * By Yishai Schwartz @YishaiSchwartz *


Awesome. I wish I could thank it more than the once I did.  I also wish the old rep system was in place as I think it was more effective.  There is more about what I read in the links, but . . . . . . .


----------



## teddyearp (Nov 21, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> *'The Muslims Don't Understand - We Don't Want Al-Aqsa'*
> Ramat Gan Chief Rabbi explains Al-Aqsa Mosque is outside the Temple boundaries, but Islam's focus on force prevents coexistence.
> 
> By Yishai Karov, Ari Yashar
> ...



So very, very, very, very, very, very, very, Um, true.


----------



## teddyearp (Nov 21, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> Palestinians in their hate and violence have lost all credible right to claim the mount as exclusively theirs, or the city of Jerusalem.  They have defiled al-Aqsa and their professed faith while practicing hate.  They have brought shame to Islam and to other muslims by their actions.



+1!!! Aris, you have just become my new best friend.  Or I guess, what I really mean is that I couldn't agree more.


----------



## teddyearp (Nov 21, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> Fact: Israel kicks their ass, every time that they commit violence - and in increasingly disproportionate rates, as the Israelis slowly harden their hearts and give up on talks.



Quoted for truth.  I do not always agree with the new settlements, nor the destruction of the offender's family's homes as a deterrent, but what else is Israel supposed to do beside go German?


----------



## teddyearp (Nov 21, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> Children do not know hate.  You can put a mix of toddlers and children in the same room without conflict.  Hate is taught, mostly in the home but also through peer pressure by olders in the neighborhood.  They are taught by how they see others behave and speak.
> Hate is not natural.



And to further this position look at this school:

Jerusalem International YMCA

And where is it?  Oh yeah, (west) Jerusalem.


----------



## teddyearp (Nov 21, 2014)

fanger said:


> Whats the Jew excuse



Palestinian attacks and terrorism.

That's all.


----------



## teddyearp (Nov 21, 2014)

Sunni Man said:


> .it's a personal attack. <snip> even though you are a juden,



I find your use of the word "juden" a personal attack on all the world's Jewry. In every post you make.


----------



## theliq (Nov 21, 2014)

teddyearp said:


> Steve, this was almost a good post, but I take pause in these two parts:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


brilliant cartoon Teddy,Just BRILLIANT


----------



## Hossfly (Nov 21, 2014)

theliq said:


> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> > Steve, this was almost a good post, but I take pause in these two parts:
> ...


*???*


----------



## Sunni Man (Nov 22, 2014)

teddyearp said:


> I find your use of the word "juden" a personal attack on all the world's Jewry. In every post you make.


The word "juden" is the regular everyday word used by the German people when referring to a jewish person. It is not derogatory nor a slang word.    .......


----------



## pbel (Nov 22, 2014)

teddyearp said:


> pbel said:
> 
> 
> > Now its been reported that his grave is a shrine...Israel is the cause of retribution and hate, and despair...
> ...


Forcibly removed...plain PR...











p


----------



## docmauser1 (Nov 22, 2014)

pbel said:


> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> > pbel said:
> ...


Well, jews being better than arabs is old news, of course.


----------



## aris2chat (Nov 22, 2014)

Sunni Man said:


> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> > I find your use of the word "juden" a personal attack on all the world's Jewry. In every post you make.
> ...



This is not a german language forum.  The use of the german word on an english forum is both rude and brings up images of pogroms and the nazi holocaust.  
I am sure you are well aware how offensive your use of the term might affect others and do so to show your own prejudice.
You are not trying to engage in a meaningful conversation but trying to incite a negative emotional response
Bad form


----------



## Roudy (Nov 22, 2014)

Sunni Man said:


> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> > I find your use of the word "juden" a personal attack on all the world's Jewry. In every post you make.
> ...



And you as a convert to Islam like what the Germans called the Jews, eh?  

Amin Al Husseini Nazi Father of Jihad Al Qaeda Arafat Saddam Hussein and the Muslim Brotherhood - Tell The Children The Truth - Homepage


----------



## Roudy (Nov 22, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > teddyearp said:
> ...



He is exercising his right to be an ISIS loving Islamic Nazi.  He promised he will send us a copy of his ISIS certificate after he moves to Syria and joins them.


----------



## Sunni Man (Nov 22, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> This is not a german language forum.  The use of the german word on an english forum is both rude and brings up images of pogroms and the nazi holocaust.


I just like the sound of the word juden when spoken.

Besides, how can the word juden bring up the holocaust myth?     ....


----------



## Mindful (Nov 22, 2014)

*PFLP hand out sweets to celebrate the Har Nof synagogue massacre

Language is a powerful part of our identity, as intellectuals from Bill Bryson to Slavoj Zizek to Steven Pinker acknowledge. Europeans are particularly sensitive to the use of racist language. We know how prejudicial and violent language can lead to horrific policy, so we carefully avoid parroting racist tropes.

Were someone to walk into a room and claim that the Jews caused all wars and revolutions and it is a moral duty to kill them, we would wince awkwardly, and treat such a person as a racist. Yet whilst language is important to the identity of any individual person or mass movement, there is more to identity than just language. Actions also matter.

This is worth bearing in mind when considering two Palestinian terror groups – Hamas and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) – which take different approaches to racism.

The Hamas charter claims that there is a secret world Jewish plot for global domination, and the Jews are behind any and every war and revolution the world has ever known. The PFLP, meanwhile, studiously avoids the crude anti-Semitic language of Hamas. The PFLP says it opposes “Zionists” rather than Jews, framing their fight as Marxist-Leninist “resistance” against “oppression”. On its website, PFLP claims its goal is to “establish a democratic national state in Palestine in which both Arabs and Jews will live as citizens with equal rights.”

When four Jewish rabbis – and a passing Druze policeman – were butchered to death whilst praying in their own sacred space, the response by Hamas and the PFLP were disturbingly similar. Hamas called the massacre a “quality development“, whilst the PFLP called it “heroic.” As Hamas distributed sweets in Gaza to celebrate the mass killings, the PFLP did the same.
*
http://hurryupharry.org/2014/11/21/the-pflp-the-synagogue-massacre-and-the-language-of-terrorism/


----------



## aris2chat (Nov 22, 2014)

Sunni Man said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > This is not a german language forum.  The use of the german word on an english forum is both rude and brings up images of pogroms and the nazi holocaust.
> ...



German documents, the graves, the camps, the witnesses, the trials have proven the holocaust was not myth.  Again you show your hate and prejudice by your words.
You cannot expect to be taken seriously with such behavior.  You insist on doing harm rather than finding reason and understanding that would help the conflicts and humanity.
Shame on you.


----------



## MJB12741 (Nov 22, 2014)

Mindful said:


> *PFLP hand out sweets to celebrate the Har Nof synagogue massacre
> 
> Language is a powerful part of our identity, as intellectuals from Bill Bryson to Slavoj Zizek to Steven Pinker acknowledge. Europeans are particularly sensitive to the use of racist language. We know how prejudicial and violent language can lead to horrific policy, so we carefully avoid parroting racist tropes.
> 
> ...



Just goes to prove that Palestinians will be Palestinians.


----------



## Roudy (Nov 22, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



Leave him alone.  He is trying to show the world why being an Islmist is like being mentally ill.


----------



## Sunni Man (Nov 22, 2014)

Yes, there were thousands of jews killed and placed in work camps.

6 million.........nope.

gas chambers.......nope


----------



## aris2chat (Nov 22, 2014)

Roudy said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



Hate is the mental disease.  The misuse of Islam is just a means, a tool, to spread the the virus.


----------



## Roudy (Nov 22, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



Islam is by far the best method of distributing hatred and violence.


----------



## aris2chat (Nov 22, 2014)

Sunni Man said:


> Yes, there were thousands of jews killed and placed in work camps.
> 
> 6 million.........nope.
> 
> gas chambers.......nope



Again you ignore the facts.

Buried Nazi gas chambers discovered by archaeologists in Poland RT News

Auschwitz-Birkenau - Auschwitz and Shoah


----------



## Sunni Man (Nov 22, 2014)

Hey, if people want to believe in the Holohoax fantasy that's their problem.

But I do have a problem with people trying to force other people to accept the myth as a fact.  

Like in some countries where it's against the law not to believe in the holohoax.   .......


----------



## aris2chat (Nov 22, 2014)

Sunni Man said:


> Hey, if people want to believe in the Holohoax fantasy that's their problem.
> 
> But I do have a problem with people trying to force other people to accept the myth as a fact.
> 
> Like in some countries where it's against the law not to believe in the holohoax.   .......



You are the one accepting myths a fact.  The evidence it there but you are play the silly monkey


----------



## MJB12741 (Nov 22, 2014)

Sunni Man said:


> Hey, if people want to believe in the Holohoax fantasy that's their problem.
> 
> But I do have a problem with people trying to force other people to accept the myth as a fact.
> 
> Like in some countries where it's against the law not to believe in the holohoax.   .......




Just curious, were you born an imbecile, or did you have to work on it?


----------



## Sunni Man (Nov 22, 2014)

Why do the zionist juden insist that everyone must believe in the Holocaust fantasy story?

And if you don't believe in their delusion they call you names.

It seems to come from an insecurity deep within the jewish psyche yearning for acceptance.    ......


----------



## toastman (Nov 22, 2014)

MJB12741 said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Hey, if people want to believe in the Holohoax fantasy that's their problem.
> ...



He's just a pathetic little troll who's miserable because he has to live off welfare checks


----------



## Roudy (Nov 22, 2014)

Sunni Man said:


> Yes, there were thousands of jews killed and placed in work camps.
> 
> 6 million.........nope.
> 
> gas chambers.......nope


Sunniman the Moooslem:

Brains.....nope

ISIS supporter....yep


----------



## aris2chat (Nov 22, 2014)

Sunni Man said:


> Why do the zionist juden insist that everyone must believe in the Holocaust fantasy story?
> 
> And if you don't believe in their delusion they call you names.
> 
> It seems to come from an insecurity deep within the jewish psyche yearning for acceptance.    ......



It is not some fantasy.  It is proven fact.
It is only fantasy in your mind.  You refuse to see the evidence.
You have been fed too much conspiracy garbage from your muslim sites.  You need to wake up from the dream world you are living in.
The beginning to understanding and peace comes from accepting established facts, not rejecting them.


----------



## Sunni Man (Nov 22, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> You have been fed too much conspiracy garbage from your muslim sites.  You need to wake up from the dream world you are living in.


Actually, none of my research about the Holohoax has come from muslim sites.     .......


----------



## Mindful (Nov 22, 2014)

Well said, Putin.

Putin Says Synagogue Attack in Jerusalem Goes Beyond All Limits Sputnik International


----------



## docmauser1 (Nov 22, 2014)

Sunni Man said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > You have been fed too much conspiracy garbage from your muslim sites.  You need to wake up from the dream world you are living in.
> ...


_research_?! Funny misnomer, indeed!


----------



## Mindful (Nov 22, 2014)

Sunni Man said:


> It seems to come from an insecurity deep within the jewish psyche yearning for acceptance.    ......



You're not Jewish. What's your excuse?


----------



## Penelope (Nov 22, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Why do the zionist juden insist that everyone must believe in the Holocaust fantasy story?
> ...


WWII is a proven fact, the holocaust is not.


----------



## Penelope (Nov 22, 2014)

Mindful said:


> Well said, Putin.
> 
> Putin Says Synagogue Attack in Jerusalem Goes Beyond All Limits Sputnik International



So, Putin would since he and Bibi are so close.


----------



## Sunni Man (Nov 22, 2014)

Why do the zionist juden become like rabid dogs when someone points out the obvious flaws in the official holohoax narrative?   ......


----------



## docmauser1 (Nov 22, 2014)

Penelope said:


> WWII is a proven fact, the holocaust is not.


But, palistanians had to steal their phony "nabka" from someone. Funny.


----------



## aris2chat (Nov 22, 2014)

Sunni Man said:


> Why do the zionist juden become like rabid dogs when someone points out the obvious flaws in the official holohoax narrative?   ......


 
The only one rabid is you pushing lies.  The only flaws are with your research that turns the horrors of the holocaust into a myth.
You are wrong.  There is not "narrative", there are facts.  Documented facts.
You are deluding yourself as long as you cling to the lies there were not gas chambers, no ovens, no genocide, no holocaust.


----------



## docmauser1 (Nov 22, 2014)

Sunni Man said:


> Why do the zionist juden become like rabid dogs when someone points out the obvious flaws in the official holohoax narrative?


Actually, It's a major trend with islamic supremacists, - first, they smoke something, second, they start seeing (hearing, reading) things.


----------



## Mindful (Nov 22, 2014)

Penelope said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> > Well said, Putin.
> ...



Logic disconnect


----------



## Mindful (Nov 22, 2014)

Sunni Man said:


> Why do the zionist juden become like rabid dogs when someone points out the obvious flaws in the official holohoax narrative?   ......




Why are trolls like you allowed to breathe?


----------



## Sunni Man (Nov 22, 2014)




----------



## Penelope (Nov 22, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Why do the zionist juden become like rabid dogs when someone points out the obvious flaws in the official holohoax narrative?   ......
> ...





Mindful said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > Mindful said:
> ...



Denial is not healthy, we must admit facts and the facts are we have been lied to for years.


----------



## Mindful (Nov 22, 2014)

*Greece refuses to open mosques, and tells arch-nemesis Turkey to shove it*

*Greece Refuses To Open Mosques And Tells Off Antichrist Nation Of Turkey - Walid Shoebat*


----------



## Penelope (Nov 22, 2014)

Mindful said:


> *Greece refuses to open mosques, and tells arch-nemesis Turkey to shove it*
> 
> *Greece Refuses To Open Mosques And Tells Off Antichrist Nation Of Turkey - Walid Shoebat*



An article from an ex radical Muslim who now is a radical Christian, radical anything, which he is , is bad news.


----------



## Sunni Man (Nov 22, 2014)




----------



## aris2chat (Nov 22, 2014)

Sunni Man said:


>



Holocaust Deniers and Public Misinformation

Holocaust Evidence - EISENHOWER S PROOF

The Straight Dope Is there any factual basis for Holocaust denial 

What are the most convincing bits of evidence which prove beyond a shadow of doubt that the Holocaust occurred - Quora


----------



## aris2chat (Nov 22, 2014)

Sunni Man said:


>



well of course you got this from rense (what Khara!)


----------



## toastman (Nov 22, 2014)

Sunni Man said:


> Why do the zionist juden become like rabid dogs when someone points out the obvious flaws in the official holohoax narrative?   ......



What obvious flaws did you point out ?


----------



## toastman (Nov 22, 2014)

Penelope said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...


What about the Holocaust is not proven ?


----------



## Sunni Man (Nov 22, 2014)




----------



## toastman (Nov 22, 2014)

Sunni Troll is on a hardcore trolling binge. Maybe when he gets his next welfare check (he himself admitted he is on welfare),

Just ignore him and eventually he will find another thread to troll


----------



## MJB12741 (Nov 22, 2014)

toastman said:


> Sunni Troll is on a hardcore trolling binge. Maybe when he gets his next welfare check (he himself admitted he is on welfare),
> 
> Just ignore him and eventually he will find another thread to troll



On this point we disagree.  What keeps them coming back is their belief that they are pissing us off with their comments & links.  Far better to bless them for all the laughs they give us & beg them to never leave us.


----------



## Sunni Man (Nov 22, 2014)




----------



## MJB12741 (Nov 22, 2014)

Sunni Man said:


>



OMG!  How do ya like that.  Sunni Man just proved the Holocaust is just a myth. Don't you all wish you had to go through life with such a Muslim brain?


----------



## theliq (Nov 22, 2014)

MJB12741 said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Troll is on a hardcore trolling binge. Maybe when he gets his next welfare check (he himself admitted he is on welfare),
> ...


----------



## Roudy (Nov 22, 2014)

Penelope said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



Rrrrright.   Of course, we must consider the source.


----------



## Roudy (Nov 22, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> >
> ...


Sunni gets attracted to Khara like flies do to shit. 

As soon as he saw the word "dummy" on the book he realized it applied  to him.


----------



## Roudy (Nov 22, 2014)

Sunni Man said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > You have been fed too much conspiracy garbage from your muslim sites.  You need to wake up from the dream world you are living in.
> ...



Show us your research, donkey boy.


----------



## teddyearp (Nov 22, 2014)

theliq said:


> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> > Steve, this was almost a good post, but I take pause in these two parts:
> ...



Back off on the hallucinogenics Steve, I do not see a cartoon in my post. . .


----------



## teddyearp (Nov 22, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Were the ANC terrorists? Give me a yes or no answer?



Oh for heaven's sake!  Here we go again about apartheid . . . .


----------



## Sunni Man (Nov 22, 2014)

Anyone here notice that Roudy never discusses or debates the OP ?

That all of his posts are about personally attacking other posters.    ......


----------



## teddyearp (Nov 22, 2014)

Sunni Man said:


> I feel sorry for the two Palestinian men who were assassinated in the synagogue by the rabid juden mob.
> 
> They were not allowed a trial to prove their innocence.   .....



And you sir are a sick and depraved man.  They were not assassinated, nor were they killed inside the synagogue.

This post of yours just adds to the facts the your are a delusional lair and hater of the Jews. I truly think, again, that your use of the term "juden" is wrong, wrong, wrong. and should be a subject of your continued status here.


----------



## teddyearp (Nov 22, 2014)

pbel said:


> The murdering Goldstein's burial plot is an Israeli shrine,



Nope, it is not.


----------



## teddyearp (Nov 22, 2014)

toastman said:


> This is the kind of hate that Palestinian kids are fed:



But I have just one tiny problem with this video.  Just trying to be fair.

Why is this child holding a M-16/AR-15?  Where would a Palestinian get one?  I thought they usually used the AK-47.  Even the portions of the video where he is shooting with his 'dad' they are using an AK-47.

Just curious.


----------



## teddyearp (Nov 22, 2014)

toastman said:


>



This one on the other hand is quite revealing and I do not have any doubts about it at all.


----------



## teddyearp (Nov 22, 2014)

Sunni Man said:


> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> > I find your use of the word "juden" a personal attack on all the world's Jewry. In every post you make.
> ...



I firmly disagree. I believe it was the 'word' used by the Nazi's when they carted the Jews off to the death camps.

I am not alone when I think it to be a derogatory word:

Link 1 (look at #2):

Urban Dictionary Juden

Link 2: German Glossary of Words to Avoid - Feindbilder - Hate Terms


----------



## teddyearp (Nov 22, 2014)

pbel said:


> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> > pbel said:
> ...



But removed it was.  How about the shrines, posters, etc. for the 'martyrs' on the other side?


----------



## pbel (Nov 22, 2014)

teddyearp said:


> pbel said:
> 
> 
> > teddyearp said:
> ...


Two wrongs never made a right...You ether live by example or become part of the problem...

America used to be a guiding light to the world but her recent hypocrisy has made her a blight! We need to change course, our support for Israeli atrocities have made us hypocrites and terrorist targets!


----------



## teddyearp (Nov 22, 2014)

teddyearp said:


> Steve, this was almost a good post, but I take pause in these two parts:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So steve aka theliq, I am still waiting to see your 'proof' (a link or anything to substantiate your claim) about your post of the bus driver being 'lynched'.


----------



## aris2chat (Nov 22, 2014)

*By Josh Levs and Mick Krever, CNN*

Iran's new president has acknowledged the Holocaust, furthering the stark contrast between himself and his predecessor.

"Any crime that happens in history against humanity, including the crime the Nazis committed towards the Jews as well as non-Jews, was reprehensible and condemnable," President Hassan Rouhani said in an interview with CNN's Christiane Amanpour.

"Whatever criminality they committed against the Jews we condemn. The taking of human life is contemptible. It makes no difference whether that life is a Jewish life, Christian or Muslim."

He followed with an apparent reference to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, saying it's not acceptable to "usurp the land of another group and occupy it." He called for "an even-handed discussion."

Rouhani also emphasized that he is "not a historian."

The Anti-Defamation League responded quickly.

"It is about time an Iranian leader acknowledged the Holocaust as a tragic fact of history," ADL National Director Abraham Foxman said in a written statement.

"But in practically the same breath President Rouhani engaged in the more subtle form of Holocaust revisionism, minimizing it by accusing the Jewish survivors of taking vengeance on the Palestinians in fulfilling their 2,000-year-old dream of returning to their homeland, Israel. This was a gratuitous swipe at the survivors.

"There is no moral equivalency between the slaughter of 6 million Jews and millions of other innocent men, women and children in the Nazi gas chambers and the plight of the Palestinian people living in the West Bank and Gaza. The Iranians, apparently, are willing to come only so far."

Days earlier, in an interview with NBC, Rouhani declined to say whether the Holocaust happened.

The country's previous president, the firebrand Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, infamously denied the Holocaust, calling it a "myth."



Rouhani, widely considered more moderate, has struck a positive tone and reached out to the West to improve relations, particularly with the United States.

"I would like to say to American people: I bring peace and friendship from Iranians to Americans," he said in English, marking the first time he's spoken the language in a TV interview since becoming president. For the rest of the interview Rouhani spoke Farsi.

In many ways, Rouhani is the "it" man of this week's U.N. General Assembly, as Western leaders look to gauge whether his diplomatic overtures will translate into concrete policy changes.

There was widespread speculation that he and U.S. President Barack Obama might meet face-to-face.

"There were some talks about" a possible meeting, Rouhani told Amanpour through a translator. "And preparation for the work was done a bit as well."

But no such meeting happened.

Two senior U.S. administration officials told CNN Tuesday that the encounter was called off because it was considered "too complicated" for Iran back home.

"I believe we didn't have sufficient time to really coordinate the meeting to the full extent that we needed to," Rouhani told CNN.

Still, the two men recently exchanged letters, and Rouhani said the ice is "already beginning to break because the environment is changing and that has come about as a result of the will of the people of Iran to create a new era of relations between the people of Iran and the rest of the world."

There is sufficient time to coordinate a meeting, he said.

Rouhani said he has full permission from Iran's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, to negotiate with the West.

"I think that the president of Iran has the authority whenever the national interest of the country is involved," Rouhani told Amanpour. "The supreme leader of Iran has said that should negotiations be necessary for the national interest of the country, he is in fact not opposed to it."

"Now, if an opportunity was created today, had arisen today," the Iranian president said, "and the prep work for that had been done, most probably the talks would have haven taken place, primarily focused on the nuclear issue or the developments on the Middle East. Therefore the supreme leader, I can tell you, has given permission for my government to freely negotiate on these issues."

Iran s new president Yes the Holocaust happened 8211 Amanpour - CNN.com Blogs


----------



## aris2chat (Nov 22, 2014)

* Muslim Imams Pray at Auschwitz for Holocaust Dead*
Muslim leaders from across the globe knelt in prayer for those killed in the Holocaust, at Auschwitz's notorious Wall of Death on Wednesday, in an emotional visit to the Nazi German death camp in southern Poland.

Muslim Imams Pray at Auschwitz for Holocaust Dead Video wkyc.com


----------



## Coyote (Nov 22, 2014)

*Kids, there is a lot of completely off topic crap on this thread.  So much so that I don't have the boots to wade through and clean.

Letsget back on topic NOW.  Just to remind you, the topic is NOT:
the Holocaust
Holocaust denial
Islam in general

The topic is an attack on a synagogue in Israel by terrorists.  There's a lot of latitude there but not as much as you seem to think.

Further derailments may result in infractions.*


----------



## Roudy (Nov 23, 2014)

So, to get back on topic, I think slaughtering four old men, while they are praying, regardless of their religion, is totally beyond the pale.  It takes a certain mentality to do this type of heinous act.  This cannot be remotely compared to soldiers following orders during a war. These are two men, on their own volition, walking into a place of worship, and hacking four old men to death, just because of their faith.  One has to blame the social environment and culture that creates such monsters.


----------



## Kondor3 (Nov 23, 2014)

Roudy said:


> So, to get back on topic, I think slaughtering four old men, while they are praying, regardless of their religion, is totally beyond the pale.  It takes a certain mentality to do this type of heinous act.  This cannot be remotely compared to soldiers following orders during a war. These are two men, on their own volition, walking into a place of worship, and hacking four old men to death, just because of their faith.  One has to blame the social environment and culture that creates such monsters.


Just so...

And religion is a huge part of their culture...

*Entirely* relevant in any discussion of the ease with which such Suicide Troops are cultivated and recruited and employed.


----------



## Billo_Really (Nov 23, 2014)

MJB12741 said:


> Once again Israel got what Israel deserved for their treatment of Palestinians with peace offerings, a security fence & land concessions so the Palestinians can remain in Israel.  When will Israel ever learn to treat the Palestinians like their own Arab brothers do in surrounding Arab countries?
> 
> Prayer massacre Three Americans among four rabbis killed as Palestinian militants storm Jerusalem synagogue - AOL.com


_*"Israeli forces carried out 30 attacks against al-Aqsa Mosque and other holy sites during the month of February alone..."*_

...but you don't say shit about that, do ya, asshole?


----------



## Kondor3 (Nov 23, 2014)

MJB12741 said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > teddyearp said:
> ...


True...

Islamists and their propaganda shills just can't help themselves...

Sooner or later... and almost invariably sooner... their Hate leaches through their monologues, and they 'out' themselves for what they are...

Haters of The West... haters of Christians and Jews and every other 'infidel' religion... haters of those not willing to slavishly submit to Sharia...

Creatures that are dangerous to children and all other living things.

The reaction of these folks to the slaughter in the synagogue is an excellent case in point.


----------



## aris2chat (Nov 23, 2014)

Billo_Really said:


> MJB12741 said:
> 
> 
> > Once again Israel got what Israel deserved for their treatment of Palestinians with peace offerings, a security fence & land concessions so the Palestinians can remain in Israel.  When will Israel ever learn to treat the Palestinians like their own Arab brothers do in surrounding Arab countries?
> ...



Ramzy Baroud?  IMEMC?  Silent Crow?  What Really Happened?  Not the most objective sources

Sharon visited the mount, and not for the first time.  He never entered the mosque or the dome.
When Israeli forces are called to an incident on the mount or other sites they respond.  They do not initiate.
The mount and buildings should be open to all, except during designated prayer.  Omar would not enter a church or synagogue but rather would pray outside out of respect.  The mount was supposed to be a place of pilgrimage to all, not exclusively the muslims, that is why al-Aqsa was built on the side.
The waqf have authority over the mosques and school, they do not have exclusive ownership or right to the mount itself.  God is not the exclusive domain of muslims, he/she/it is for everyone throughout the globe.


----------



## Phoenall (Nov 23, 2014)

Sunni Man said:


> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> > I find your use of the word "juden" a personal attack on all the world's Jewry. In every post you make.
> ...





WRONG AGAIN ali as the way in which the term is used and the person saying it all count towards how it is perceived by the rest of humanity. Your use of the term is one of RACIST ANTISEMITIC NAZI JEW HATRED and you could be arrested for it. You could try the above as your defence but it wont wash as you are not German and you are not in Germany.


----------



## Phoenall (Nov 23, 2014)

pbel said:


> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> > pbel said:
> ...





 Nope fact that you don't like seeing as it destroys your arguments


----------



## Roudy (Nov 23, 2014)

Billo_Really said:


> MJB12741 said:
> 
> 
> > Once again Israel got what Israel deserved for their treatment of Palestinians with peace offerings, a security fence & land concessions so the Palestinians can remain in Israel.  When will Israel ever learn to treat the Palestinians like their own Arab brothers do in surrounding Arab countries?
> ...


"Global Research"?  Pfffffffffftttt! 

These are exactly the kind of lies and false propaganda that lead to incitement and then two Palestinian animals hacking four old men to death during prayer.


----------



## Roudy (Nov 23, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > MJB12741 said:
> ...



Muslims always want it all and cannot coexist. What else is new.


----------



## teddyearp (Nov 23, 2014)

Billo_Really said:


> _*"Israeli forces carried out 30 attacks against al-Aqsa Mosque and other holy sites during the month of February alone..."*_
> 
> ...but you don't say shit about that, do ya, asshole?



Billo, that article takes tiny threads out of the truth to weave a whole boatload of lies.  I surely hope you know that.


----------



## teddyearp (Nov 23, 2014)

teddyearp said:


> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> > Steve, this was almost a good post, but I take pause in these two parts:
> ...



I still see this claim that the bus driver was 'lynched' as relevant to this thread.  But still all I hear in response to my request is crickets. . . . . . .


----------



## Billo_Really (Nov 23, 2014)

teddyearp said:


> Billo, that article takes tiny threads out of the truth to weave a whole boatload of lies.  I surely hope you know that.


Are you saying there wasn't 30 attacks in the month of February?


----------



## Billo_Really (Nov 23, 2014)

Roudy said:


> "Global Research"?  Pfffffffffftttt!
> 
> These are exactly the kind of lies and false propaganda that lead to incitement and then two Palestinian animals hacking four old men to death during prayer.


Ad hominems are convenient when you have no argument, aren't they?


----------



## Billo_Really (Nov 23, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> Ramzy Baroud?  IMEMC?  Silent Crow?  What Really Happened?  Not the most objective sources


Your personal opinions of a particular website are irrelevant.



aris2chat said:


> Sharon visited the mount, and not for the first time.  He never entered the mosque or the dome.


The article didn't say how many times he visited and just said he entered the "mosque".



aris2chat said:


> When Israeli forces are called to an incident on the mount or other sites they respond.  They do not initiate.


Then why are they preventing Arabs from entering, while letting fanatical settlers to go on in?



aris2chat said:


> The mount and buildings should be open to all, except during designated prayer.  Omar would not enter a church or synagogue but rather would pray outside out of respect.


Who's Omar?



aris2chat said:


> The mount was supposed to be a place of pilgrimage to all, not exclusively the muslims, that is why al-Aqsa was built on the side.
> The waqf have authority over the mosques and school, they do not have exclusive ownership or right to the mount itself.  God is not the exclusive domain of muslims, he/she/it is for everyone throughout the globe.


Do you have any evidence to prove the claims made in my link were false?


----------



## teddyearp (Nov 23, 2014)

Billo_Really said:


> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> > Billo, that article takes tiny threads out of the truth to weave a whole boatload of lies.  I surely hope you know that.
> ...



If you are referring to this (in your article):



> n a statement released on March 7, the Palestinian Ministry of Awqaf and Religious Affairs said Israeli forces carried out 30 attacks against al-Aqsa Mosque and other holy sites during the month of February alone. Most of the attacks targeted al-Aqsa itself. While the recurring violations at al-Aqsa were led by Jewish settlers, according to the statement, they have done so under the watchful eye, protection and support of the Israeli police and army.



Yes I am.  My reasoning is that the Pro-Palestinian media and related sources call any Jew (and sometimes even just a non moslem) who wishes to ascend the Temple Mount (which the al-Aqsa mosque is only a tiny part of) and 'attack' on al-Aqsa.

I hope you will let me explain further and also read and research these truths for yourself.  There is a huge difference between the al-Aqsa mosque and the Temple Mount.  The al-Aqsa mosque was built off to the south side of the Temple Mount, originally out of respect for the Jewish Temple.

Side note: Back in the day, the moslems had no problem with any non moslem going up on the Temple Mount.

But now a days, the Palestinian propaganda machine insists that anyone who wishes to go up on the Temple Mount is invading the al-Aqsa mosque.

I hope you can find it in your heart to take the time to research the Temple Mount further so that you too, will know the truth and stop propagandizing lies.


----------



## aris2chat (Nov 23, 2014)

Billo_Really said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Ramzy Baroud?  IMEMC?  Silent Crow?  What Really Happened?  Not the most objective sources
> ...


 
That is the point, the "article" is not factual.  Sharon was being filmed and never entered the mosque or dome, nor did he pray while on the mount during that visit.  Sharon had visited the mount compound on a number of other occasion over the years.  The visit requested was planned to be, and permitted by Arafat, as a meeting place between Sharon and Arafat to finally shake hands.  Arafat had other ideas and rejected the peace offering by Sharon and the peace deal that would have given up half of jerusalem to the  palestinian state.  He even had bus loads of palestinians brought in to ensure a situation that would trigger the intafada.  Rocks also were brought and placed around the mount area.  It was not a spontaneous response but an orchestrated one, and witnessed by the world.
Israeli forces do more to keep jews from the mount that permit them.  Rabble muslims that cause trouble are often limited as a means to prevent rock or fire attacks on the mount or down below at the Kotel.  They were allowed to return for friday prayers.  More often than not Israeli police do not permit tourism by jews on the mount, especially when emotions are hightened so as not to incite a confrontation.
>>Sharon was only permitted to enter the compound after the Israeli Interior Minister had received assurances from the Palestinian Authority's security chief that no problems would arise if he made the visit.[21] Sharon did not actually go into the Al-Aqsa Mosque, and went during normal tourist hours. Colin Shindler writes "Shlomo Ben-Ami, the Minister of Internal security, was told by Israeli intelligence that there was no concerted risk of violence. This was implicitly confirmed by Jibril Rajoub, the Palestinian head of Preventive Security on the West Bank, who told Ben-Shlomo that Sharon could visit the Haram, but not enter a mosque on security grounds."[22]<<

Omar....Caliph Omar ibn al Khattab

Amazing you know neither recent event or history about the mount.  You would actually believe Sharon just walked into the al-Aqsa mosque with so many people in attendance?


----------



## theliq (Nov 23, 2014)

teddyearp said:


> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> > Steve, this was almost a good post, but I take pause in these two parts:
> ...


www.addictinginfo.org/.../israelis-hang-palestinian-bus-driver-in-his-ow


----------



## theliq (Nov 23, 2014)

theliq said:


> teddyearp said:
> 
> 
> > teddyearp said:
> ...


Plus there are loads more on this subject......surprised you could not find them......but then why XZS&^%$*#@*DSW@


----------



## theliq (Nov 23, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...


Did he or Didn't I don't really know...but what I do know is.........HAD HE.......HE WOULD HAVE BEEN ASSINATED (LIKE PRIME MINISTER RABIN,PREVIOUSLY) BY THE ISRAELI RIGHT WING TROLLS..............THEMSELVES


----------



## theliq (Nov 23, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > So, to get back on topic, I think slaughtering four old men, while they are praying, regardless of their religion, is totally beyond the pale.  It takes a certain mentality to do this type of heinous act.  This cannot be remotely compared to soldiers following orders during a war. These are two men, on their own volition, walking into a place of worship, and hacking four old men to death, just because of their faith.  One has to blame the social environment and culture that creates such monsters.
> ...


And more importantly Israel Itself,Kondie......I don't need to explain to you why,because I don't want to insult your intelligence..steve


----------



## theliq (Nov 23, 2014)

Roudy said:


> So, to get back on topic, I think slaughtering four old men, while they are praying, regardless of their religion, is totally beyond the pale.  It takes a certain mentality to do this type of heinous act.  This cannot be remotely compared to soldiers following orders during a war. These are two men, on their own volition, walking into a place of worship, and hacking four old men to death, just because of their faith.  One has to blame the social environment and culture that creates such monsters.


Unfortunately Roudy......this horror for both sides will only continue....regrettably.....the Right Wing Israelis are completely out of control or should that be in control.steve


----------



## Hossfly (Nov 23, 2014)

theliq said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


That makes no sense. Explain it anyway, Steve. It won't insult anyone.


----------



## theliq (Nov 23, 2014)

Hossfly said:


> theliq said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...


Hi Hoss...........fcuk me,you have a brain of sorts.....if you repress and unfairly occupy a nation...they will react....in this schism,it is just tit-for-tat response from one side to the other.......the total repression of the Palestinians allows one to understand their frustration and seething anger.....as any fair minded person would understand clearly.......and the killings etc of Jewish folk  in Israel...has just the same response,understandably.......I think the "War" is horrendous for both sides...and eventually pointless(well no loss of any loss of life is pointless,sorry to use that term,stupid of me really.) But it helps no one.

I have unlike others on here have always encouraged a negotiated peace settlement for both sides as all of you well know

Israeli immigrants over the last 10 years or so has been loaded in favour of Right Wing Settlers........to most, a vindictive faithful to an archaich religion which most of the world passed by milliemeim sic  ago.....as totally irrelevant to modernism ....there may be so few in world terms(same as ISIS types in Islam) the trouble with these people they do not want Democracy in and form, but a Theocracy...paid for by secular Jews......That Israel has decided to follow this track,has and will create huge problems...within and outside Israel......."A type of Banana Republic" if you know what I mean.........The reason they still have an economy is the financial support of America....and the abnormal power of the Jewish lobby....who in reality control America politically and financially....but this power will diminish eventually or at least be curtailed.........."Crying pity since 1948,just does not wash anymore" ........Israel are completely on the nose worldwide.

America these days are not regarded as highly as they were(mind you in my opinion most are pretty savvie) but you have been led by the nose by your pathetic and shameful politicians....FULL STOP.........but you have or will not accept other political parties,for some unknown reason????????


Anyhow this is not really a Critique of America..........but my assessment of the Horror for both peoples in the Holy Land.......you can all scramble to take me to task.....but all the same I am RIGHT(as usual) I find it very hard to be humble on USMB sometimes but on the other hand have and do find it amazing,and never take it for granted

Viva Palestine,Viva Israel......less the NUTTERS on both sides.......just sayin  steve

ps Hoss I always make sense,have you ever thought it maybe your interpretation.......my good friend.


----------



## Roudy (Nov 23, 2014)

theliq said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > So, to get back on topic, I think slaughtering four old men, while they are praying, regardless of their religion, is totally beyond the pale.  It takes a certain mentality to do this type of heinous act.  This cannot be remotely compared to soldiers following orders during a war. These are two men, on their own volition, walking into a place of worship, and hacking four old men to death, just because of their faith.  One has to blame the social environment and culture that creates such monsters.
> ...


Hah?  What does this act have to do with "right wing Israelis"?  I have yet to hear a blanket unconditional condemnation towards what these two Palestinian terrorist animals did.  There is absolutely no excuse or justification for it.


----------



## Roudy (Nov 23, 2014)

theliq said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > theliq said:
> ...



Wow, what a load of crap that was, and a horrible excuse for walking into a place of worship and hacking four old men to death, while they were praying.  And then the Palestinians broke in mass celebrations and eating sweets.  What a cursed people and sick culture.


----------



## aris2chat (Nov 23, 2014)

Roudy said:


> theliq said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Analysis Abbas forced by Kerry condemns synagogue attack


----------



## Roudy (Nov 23, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > theliq said:
> ...



Yes, I heard about it.  It's pretty sad and pathetic.  Even Obama engaged in this double talk when he expressed his half assed condemnation.


----------



## theliq (Nov 23, 2014)

Roudy said:


> theliq said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...


Silly response Roudy.......I could give you loads of tit for tat Israeli responses and of Jewish/Israeli.....sweet eating...and cheering imparticular the cheering vigilanties whilst hanging the bus driver...anyhow you enjoy all this death and destruction but only for one side...open those myopic eyes...for a change steve


----------



## Roudy (Nov 23, 2014)

theliq said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > theliq said:
> ...



Tit for tat?  Palestinians in general celebrate these barbaric acts, Israelis in general don't.  The two people aren't even on the same planet morally and ethically.  Get that through your empty head.  It's pretty obvious who the good guys are in this Islamic war against humanity and modern civilization, and it ain't the people who celebrate terrorist savages who kill old men while praying.


----------



## theliq (Nov 23, 2014)

Roudy said:


> theliq said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


Neither is pouring petrol down a Palestinian boys throat,dousing him with petrol.....setting him alight and MURDERING..but I suppose you think that's OK

Give me a break.......your support for these 3 Jewish/Mongrel Terrorist Animals...says a lot about your morality...by the way I said the 2 Palestinians attack and savage murders were wrong.............like the 3 Jewish TERRORIST Trolls but tell me which of the two incidents was worse?????????steve as I said Myopic eyes


----------



## theliq (Nov 23, 2014)

nd





Roudy said:


> theliq said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


What total Rot..................ISIS war and murderous killings is against all creeds and religions and Australia unlike Israel has persuded sic this filth

You missed my point completely,never answered the question I asked you..as usual and merely tried to deflect my post.....Roudy I ain't that stupid.....now get with it and answer the question


----------



## Roudy (Nov 23, 2014)

theliq said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > theliq said:
> ...



The difference is Israelis generally don't celebrate those that murder innocents in the most barbaric way, and in fact prosecute, the Palestinians on the other hand celebrate these heinous acts, and incite for more of them to occur.  And when was the last time Palestinians prosecuted terrorists?  How about NEVER.


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## Roudy (Nov 23, 2014)

theliq said:


> nd
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If you're going to drink and post over here, try making some sense.


----------



## Billo_Really (Nov 23, 2014)

teddyearp said:


> If you are referring to this (in your article):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The article said those attacks were by Israeli forces, not "any Jew".



teddyearp said:


> I hope you will let me explain further and also read and research these truths for yourself.


Absolutely!  If you got something to say, then I'll lend an ear to hear it.  No matter how heated the conversation gets, I never close the lines of communication.



teddyearp said:


> There is a huge difference between the al-Aqsa mosque and the Temple Mount.  The al-Aqsa mosque was built off to the south side of the Temple Mount, originally out of respect for the Jewish Temple.
> 
> Side note: Back in the day, the moslems had no problem with any non moslem going up on the Temple Mount.
> 
> But now a days, the Palestinian propaganda machine insists that anyone who wishes to go up on the Temple Mount is invading the al-Aqsa mosque.


Automatically treating everything as "Palestinian propaganda", is a mistake.



teddyearp said:


> I hope you can find it in your heart to take the time to research the Temple Mount further so that you too, will know the truth and stop propagandizing lies.


The only thing I care about is the truth and you haven't proven I am _"propagandizing lies"_.  But if you do prove it, I will acknowledge it and change my position.


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## Billo_Really (Nov 23, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> That is the point, the "article" is not factual.


 You say that, but you haven't proven that.



aris2chat said:


> Sharon was being filmed and never entered the mosque or dome, nor did he pray while on the mount during that visit.  Sharon had visited the mount compound on a number of other occasion over the years.  The visit requested was planned to be, and permitted by Arafat, as a meeting place between Sharon and Arafat to finally shake hands.  Arafat had other ideas and rejected the peace offering by Sharon and the peace deal that would have given up half of jerusalem to the  palestinian state.  He even had bus loads of palestinians brought in to ensure a situation that would trigger the intafada.  Rocks also were brought and placed around the mount area.  It was not a spontaneous response but an orchestrated one, and witnessed by the world.
> Israeli forces do more to keep jews from the mount that permit them.  Rabble muslims that cause trouble are often limited as a means to prevent rock or fire attacks on the mount or down below at the Kotel.  They were allowed to return for friday prayers.  More often than not Israeli police do not permit tourism by jews on the mount, especially when emotions are hightened so as not to incite a confrontation.
> >>Sharon was only permitted to enter the compound after the Israeli Interior Minister had received assurances from the Palestinian Authority's security chief that no problems would arise if he made the visit.[21] Sharon did not actually go into the Al-Aqsa Mosque, and went during normal tourist hours. Colin Shindler writes "Shlomo Ben-Ami, the Minister of Internal security, was told by Israeli intelligence that there was no concerted risk of violence. This was implicitly confirmed by Jibril Rajoub, the Palestinian head of Preventive Security on the West Bank, who told Ben-Shlomo that Sharon could visit the Haram, but not enter a mosque on security grounds."[22]<<


Fuck Sharon!  His visit was not the point of the article.

The point of the article was the difference the media reports violence by Palestinian's and Israeli's. It makes a big deal about one Palestinian attack and basically ignores over 30 Israeli attacks on Palestinian's.



aris2chat said:


> Omar....Caliph Omar ibn al Khattab
> 
> Amazing you know neither recent event or history about the mount.  You would actually believe Sharon just walked into the al-Aqsa mosque with so many people in attendance?


Why should I believe you?


----------



## Hossfly (Nov 23, 2014)

Billo_Really said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > That is the point, the "article" is not factual.
> ...


Aris doesn't lie, heathen.


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## theliq (Nov 23, 2014)

Roudy said:


> theliq said:
> 
> 
> > nd
> ...


ANSWER THE QUESTION...............which is the woeful of the two acts................................stop this ridiculous drinking nonsence and answer the question.......do I somehow intimidate you Roudy ..steve


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## theliq (Nov 23, 2014)

Hossfly said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...


Heathen is uncalled for Hoss.................steve


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## aris2chat (Nov 23, 2014)

Billo_Really said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > That is the point, the "article" is not factual.
> ...



Israel did not "attack" al-Aqsa mosque, it responded to violence.  Muslims set fire to rugs in the mosque after throwing stones and molotov cocktails at tourists.  When Israels respond, how is that an attack on the mosque?  How is protecting and putting down rioters misbehaving an attack on the mosque?  OMG!  they did not take their shoes off to put out the fire burning the rugs set by the muslims rioters.  Which is worse?  trying to burn your own mosque or not taking off shoe to put out a fire?  Who in their right mind takes their shoes off when rugs are burning on the floor?

I swear, I don't think people bother to think half the time before posting the garbage they spout.
Taking need action to threats on the mount is not the same as attacking the mosque.  Put out fires and take custody of those who set them is not attacking the mosque.  Should they are just stood by and watched the mosque burn?  Should they have let the mischief makers kill someone first?

....................and how does any of this justify knifing and chopping at rabbis praying inside a synagogue?  How is this cause to celebrate in the streets and had out candy or threaten to kill any politician in Israel?  Where does it go from here?


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## Roudy (Nov 24, 2014)

theliq said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > theliq said:
> ...



intimidate?  You are boiler plate ignorant Palestinian supporter. Maybe a milder version of Bill. Address the point, why do Palestinians incite such horrific acts, celebrate the perpetrators as heroes, and never prosecute them?


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## Roudy (Nov 24, 2014)

Billo_Really said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > That is the point, the "article" is not factual.
> ...



Why do you think your braying deserves an answer? you falsely accused Israel of attacking the  Al Aqsa, and are trying to defend the indefensible.  There is karma, you know.


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## 50_RiaL (Nov 24, 2014)

Here's PA President Abbas's statement on the Synagogue massacre:

"The president always condemns killings of civilians from any party whatsoever, and condemns the killing of worshipers today in one of the houses of worship in West Jerusalem, and also denounces all violent acts no matter what their source is, and demands an end to the ongoing incursions into the Al-Aqsa Mosque and the provocative acts by Israeli settlers as well as incitement by some Israeli ministers.
 The presidency also confirms that it is time to end the occupation and end the causes of tension and violence, affirming our commitment to a just-based solution on the basis of a two-state solution, in accordance with the resolutions of international legitimacy, and maintain an atmosphere of calm and understandings that have been made with King Abdullah II and Foreign Minister American John Kerry in Amman."

Here's blogger Elder of Ziyon's breakdown of Abbas insincere statement:

*This is not a condemnation. This is an anti-Israel polemic that uses a terror attack as a hook in order to issue a statement slamming Israel an blaming all Arab terror on the victims.
 Abbas doesn't acknowledge that his own people were behind the attack. For all anyone knows from his statement, the men massacred in their prayer shawls might have been killed by people from Japan - or Mea Shearim. 
 Moreover, Abbas' deliberately pointing out that this attack happened in "West Jerusalem" indicates that had the men been in a synagogue in other parts of Jerusalem, everything would have been just fine.
 And as with every single other "condemnation" of terror by Abbas in history, he doesn't say that the slaughter is immoral or against Palestinian Arab morals. He is bothered far more about any backlash that he might get for not condemning it than he is about the murder of four Jewish worshipers.
 The synagogue slaughter didn't even merit a stand-alone sentence.
 After his perfunctory "condemnation" that wasn't even that, Abbas goes on his usual anti-Israel harangue, so that the "condemnation" of the attack is dwarfed by about 10 other statements.  He turns his statement into a naked insult to the Jews who dare consider praying in other parts of Jerusalem.*

*And indeed Abbas didn't condemn the car terrorism or the knife attacks, because the victims either happened to be in his twisted mind either "settlers" or "soldiers." For all we know, Abbas considers ramming cars into crowds of people to be "non-violent resistance." His own official news agency invariably call them "accidents."
 It is obvious that the current spate of attacks is at least partially due to Abbas' incitement, calling for Palestinian Arabs to "defend Al Aqsa by any means." His official TV station has been broadcasting antisemitism.
 And Abbas' own advisors assure their people in Arabic that Abbas really does support all terror attacks. His advisor advisor Mahmoud Al-Habbash said on November 5, "First of all, allow me to say that we kiss every forehead, every hand and even every foot that carries out Ribat (religious conflict/ war over land claimed to be Islamic) at the Al-Aqsa Mosque and in Jerusalem... We are behind them. The leadership is with them... We are with them in every movement, in every action and every deed, and we welcome what they are doing at the blessed Al-Aqsa Mosque."
 Abbas' "condemnation" was released in order to re-assure Western leaders that he is really a "man of peace" while he simultaneously tells his people to keep on killing Jews, and he is behind them 100%. Just try to avoid Jews whose deaths would make him look bad.*


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## fanger (Nov 24, 2014)

Where was the condemnation of the Israeli Attack ?


----------



## Billo_Really (Nov 24, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Why do you think your braying deserves an answer? you falsely accused Israel of attacking the  Al Aqsa, and are trying to defend the indefensible.  There is karma, you know.


I didn't falsely accuse. 

 I provided corroborative evidence to back up my claim.

All you do, is shoot your fuckin' mouth off!


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## Billo_Really (Nov 24, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> Israel did not "attack" al-Aqsa mosque, it responded to violence.  Muslims set fire to rugs in the mosque after throwing stones and molotov cocktails at tourists.  When Israels respond, how is that an attack on the mosque?  How is protecting and putting down rioters misbehaving an attack on the mosque?  OMG!  they did not take their shoes off to put out the fire burning the rugs set by the muslims rioters.  Which is worse?  trying to burn your own mosque or not taking off shoe to put out a fire?  Who in their right mind takes their shoes off when rugs are burning on the floor?
> 
> I swear, I don't think people bother to think half the time before posting the garbage they spout.
> Taking need action to threats on the mount is not the same as attacking the mosque.  Put out fires and take custody of those who set them is not attacking the mosque.  Should they are just stood by and watched the mosque burn?  Should they have let the mischief makers kill someone first?
> ...


You just keep talking and telling stories. I have no reason to believe you without any evidence to back up your claim.  Pony up some proof, or shut the fuck up!


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## Billo_Really (Nov 24, 2014)

Hossfly said:


> Aris doesn't lie, heathen.


You do.


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## teddyearp (Nov 24, 2014)

Bill, I have looked for any evidence to prove or deny your 'globalresearch' article and there is none to be found.  Usually, if something as significant as 30 incidents of Israeli *forces* *attacking* the al-Aqsa *mosque* you will find it on more than one web site.  Therefore I call your article a lie.

As does Aris and most others here.  As for the rest of my reply, perhaps you should just take a look at the map of the Temple Mount to see that there is a lot more there than just the one mosque.


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## Roudy (Nov 24, 2014)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Why do you think your braying deserves an answer? you falsely accused Israel of attacking the  Al Aqsa, and are trying to defend the indefensible.  There is karma, you know.
> ...



All you have is bullshit from anti American, anti Semitic sites.  You haven't proven jackshit.  

It is exactly these lies and incitements that lead to massacres such as the one in the synagogue.


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## Roudy (Nov 24, 2014)

teddyearp said:


> Bill, I have looked for any evidence to prove or deny your 'globalresearch' article and there is none to be found.  Usually, if something as significant as 30 incidents of Israeli *forces* *attacking* the al-Aqsa *mosque* you will find it on more than one web site.  Therefore I call your article a lie.
> 
> As does Aris and most others here.  As for the rest of my reply, perhaps you should just take a look at the map of the Temple Mount to see that there is a lot more there than just the one mosque.



Global research is like the National Enquirer magazine of the Internet.  Perfect for small brained, ignorant morons like Billy The Bully.  Here are some of the other "interesting" articles this site carries.  You gotta laugh:

Hillary Inc. The Military-Industrial Candidate Global Research

Ukraine Secretive Neo-Nazi Military Organization Involved in Euromaidan Sniper Shootings Global Research

Obama Announces Right-wing Immigration Reform in National Address Global Research

CIA Behind Hip-Hop s Drug Fetish Says Former Cocaine Kingpin Rick Ross Global Research

The Pentagon 8217 s 8220 Non-Lethal Military Aid 8221 Will be Used to Kill Civilians in East Ukraine Nazemroaya Chossudovsky Global Research

Towards a New Joint Global Currency Putin Calls Upon Washington 8220 Not to Meddle in Russian Affairs 8221 Global Research


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## MJB12741 (Nov 24, 2014)

Billo_Really said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > That is the point, the "article" is not factual.
> ...



Well golly gee Billy , will ya be so kind as to tell us what caused these Israeli attacks on Palestinians?  'Atta boy!


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## Hossfly (Nov 24, 2014)

theliq said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Billo_Really said:
> ...


Why not? He'll admit it himself.


----------



## Kondor3 (Nov 24, 2014)

Billo_Really said:


> ...The only thing I care about is the truth and you haven't proven I am _"propagandizing lies"_.  But if you do prove it, I will acknowledge it and change my position.


The Accused is not allowed to serve as the Judge or Jury.


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## MJB12741 (Nov 24, 2014)

MJB12741 said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



Hello!  Is Billy home?


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## Billo_Really (Nov 24, 2014)

teddyearp said:


> Bill, I have looked for any evidence to prove or deny your 'globalresearch' article and there is none to be found.  Usually, if something as significant as 30 incidents of Israeli *forces* *attacking* the al-Aqsa *mosque* you will find it on more than one web site.  Therefore I call your article a lie.


Tell that to the 181 Palestinian's that were injured in February from violent attacks by Israeli's



> *February 2014*
> _Three Palestinian civilians (2 in Gaza; 1 in the West Bank) were shot dead by Israeli forces, while 221, of whom 219 were civilians and 53 children, were injured (40 in Gaza and *181 in the West Bank*). In the same period, no Israelis were killed, and 6 were injured, of whom 5 were civilians. *23 incidents settler-related incidents*, 6 involving injuries to a person, and 17 resulting in damage to Palestinian properties were registered_.



Another 10 were hurt in August.



> _*Israeli Police Attacks Worshipers In Al-Aqsa Mosque, Ten Injured*
> Palestinian medical sources in occupied Jerusalem have reported that at least ten Palestinian worshippers were injured, Monday, during clashes that took place after Israeli police officers stormed the yards of the al-Aqsa mosque.
> 
> *Israeli fanatics frequently attempt to invade the mosque, and have frequently assaulted and beat local worshipers*_.



This happens frequently?  Here's a short list of attacks since 2009.



> _*It should also be remembered that assaults on Masaajid and non-Jewish Places of Worship in ‘Israel’ by Zionists are a very common occurence.*
> _
> *2009*
> _9 December 2009 – The Hasan Khadr Mosque at the village of Yasuf near Salfit was burnt, with ‘price tag’ slogan written on the wall._
> ...


*Over 6000 Israeli's stormed the mosque in this year alone.*



> _In recent months, groups of extremist Jewish settlers, often accompanied by Israeli security forces, have repeatedly forced their way into the Al-Aqsa complex. The frequent violations anger Palestinian Muslims and occasionally lead to violent confrontations.
> 
> *A total of 6311 Israelis stormed the Al-Aqsa compound from the beginning of 2014 until June 2*, the Al-Aqsa Foundation for Endowment and Heritage, a Palestinian NGO, said_.



BTW, the point of the GR article was that these attacks always go un-reported or under-reported.  Maybe that's why you weren't finding anything.



teddyearp said:


> As does Aris and most others here.  As for the rest of my reply, perhaps you should just take a look at the map of the Temple Mount to see that there is a lot more there than just the one mosque.


What does the layout of the buildings on the site have to do with the number of attacks?


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## Billo_Really (Nov 24, 2014)

MJB12741 said:


> Well golly gee Billy , will ya be so kind as to tell us what caused these Israeli attacks on Palestinians?  'Atta boy!


It was you.  You caused them.


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## Billo_Really (Nov 24, 2014)

MJB12741 said:


> Hello!  Is Billy home?


Why?  Are you ready to attack?


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## Billo_Really (Nov 24, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Global research is like the National Enquirer magazine of the Internet.  Perfect for small brained, ignorant morons like Billy The Bully.  Here are some of the other "interesting" articles this site carries.  You gotta laugh:
> 
> Hillary Inc. The Military-Industrial Candidate Global Research
> 
> ...


Smear campaigns and discrediting the source, is what people do when they have no valid argument.


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## Billo_Really (Nov 24, 2014)

Roudy said:


> All you have is bullshit from anti American, anti Semitic sites.  You haven't proven jackshit.
> 
> It is exactly these lies and incitements that lead to massacres such as the one in the synagogue.


You ain't no Mother Theresa yourself.


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## Roudy (Nov 24, 2014)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > All you have is bullshit from anti American, anti Semitic sites.  You haven't proven jackshit.
> ...





Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Global research is like the National Enquirer magazine of the Internet.  Perfect for small brained, ignorant morons like Billy The Bully.  Here are some of the other "interesting" articles this site carries.  You gotta laugh:
> ...



Your source, the equivalent of an Internet National Enquirer, made claims of "attacks" on the Al Aqsa mosque, where there was absolutely no evidence for it, not even enough to call it a speculation.  And the rest of it is your braying.


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## Roudy (Nov 24, 2014)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > All you have is bullshit from anti American, anti Semitic sites.  You haven't proven jackshit.
> ...


Awwww did we hurt your feelings by questioning your stupid accusations?  Ha ha ha.


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## Billo_Really (Nov 24, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Your source, the equivalent of an Internet National Enquirer, made claims of "attacks" on the Al Aqsa mosque, where there was absolutely no evidence for it, not even enough to call it a speculation.  And the rest of it is your braying.


If there was no evidence, why did Jordan recall its Ambassador?



> *Jordan Accuses Israel of Attacking, Desecrating Al Aqsa Mosque*
> _
> 
> 
> Jordan accused Israel of attacking and desecrating a revered mosque and withdrew its ambassador, stoking the growing tensions surrounding the city’s most sensitive holy site_.



The only "no evidence" around here, is coming from you.  You've shown absolutely no evidence showing these attacks didn't occur. The only evidence you've provided, is your big, dumbass, racist, hate-mongering mouth.


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## Billo_Really (Nov 24, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Awwww did we hurt your feelings by questioning your stupid accusations?  Ha ha ha.


Do your parents know you're up past your bedtime? 

Don't you have school tomorrow?


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## Roudy (Nov 24, 2014)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Your source, the equivalent of an Internet National Enquirer, made claims of "attacks" on the Al Aqsa mosque, where there was absolutely no evidence for it, not even enough to call it a speculation.  And the rest of it is your braying.
> ...



What's the evidence of the attack, you fuckwad?  What attack took place? False accusations by Arabs are a dime a dozen.


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## Roudy (Nov 24, 2014)

^^^^^^^^ 

Said the moron who acts like a juvenile schoolyard Bully.


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## teddyearp (Nov 25, 2014)

Last try.  OK, so instead of proving the 30 attacks you go off about injuries caused in February no where near the Temple Mount. And just for kicks you sprinkle in some more from August. I am sorry those folks got hurt. The list of attacks since 2009 is totally getting off course here Bill.

Now the real whopper is how could over 6,000 Israelis 'storm' the mosque this year? First off, I call lies on that source.  they quote no credible sources for their article.  Hell, I could setup a webpage and say anything I want to as well. The gate to the top of the Temple Mount is only open to non-moslems from Sunday-Thursday 7:30am to 10am and 12:30 to 1:30.  This is enforced by Israeli police.  that would mean that over 200 Israelis have to line up each and every day that the Mount is open.  Nope, didn't happen.  I've rread enough trip reports from folks who have traveled to Israel this year to know better.

Under-reporting?  With claims such as these articles you link make, would Ma'an news be all over this as well?  AS for the map, it is to try to educate you that everytime they claim the 'mosque' is under attack, it is to show that they really want up on the Mount and could care less about the one little corner at the south end where the mosque stands.

Bill, you are going to believe what you want to, no matter how obviously false and ludicrous it is.  You did post once that you really don't care about the Israelis nor the Palestinians didn't you? Therefore it is pointless to debate with you, again since you believe any article full of false claims that suits your agenda that you want to.


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## MJB12741 (Nov 25, 2014)

Please go easy on Billy.  We don't want to upset him.  We need him here for all the laughs he gives us.


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## MJB12741 (Nov 25, 2014)

MJB12741 said:


> Please go easy on Billy.  We don't want to upset him.  We need him here for all the laughs he gives us.



Bottom line is if you want to live in Israel, don't mess with Israel.  But then Palestinians will be Palestinians so let's at least help them by sending body bags.


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## teddyearp (Nov 25, 2014)

MJB12741 said:


> Please go easy on Billy.  We don't want to upset him.  We need him here for all the laughs he gives us.



I'm afraid that I already did from this thread.  Maybe I should have cussed some more.  Or name called some more.


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## Billo_Really (Nov 25, 2014)

teddyearp said:


> Last try.  OK, so instead of proving the 30 attacks you go off about injuries caused in February no where near the Temple Mount.


If 191 Palestinian's were injured in violent attacks from Israeli's just during the month of February in the West Bank, why is it so hard to think there was 30 attacks at the Temple Mount, during that same month? Why would a violent, racist society, taking out their rage against a minority population of a different culture, restrict themselves to one area, for this violence to occur?  If there is violence in the West Bank, it stands to reason, there would  be violence at the Temple Mount.



teddyearp said:


> And just for kicks you sprinkle in some more from August. I am sorry those folks got hurt. The list of attacks since 2009 is totally getting off course here Bill.


No it's not.  I'm demonstrating a pattern of violence that is systemic in Israeli society towards the Palestinian's. And this violence occurs every where, at any time.



teddyearp said:


> Now the real whopper is how could over 6,000 Israelis 'storm' the mosque this year? First off, I call lies on that source.


You call lies on that source, without any evidence that would lead you to that conclusion. 



teddyearp said:


> they quote no credible sources for their article.


That is your opinion, not a fact.



teddyearp said:


> Hell, I could setup a webpage and say anything I want to as well. The gate to the top of the Temple Mount is only open to non-moslems from Sunday-Thursday 7:30am to 10am and 12:30 to 1:30.  This is enforced by Israeli police.  that would mean that over 200 Israelis have to line up each and every day that the Mount is open.  Nope, didn't happen.  I've rread enough trip reports from folks who have traveled to Israel this year to know better.


You _"...read enough reports from folks who traveled there..."_

Who do you think would know more about what is going on in a particular area?

_a) people who traveled there?
b) people that live there?_​
My money is on the people who live there 24/7.



teddyearp said:


> Under-reporting?  With claims such as these articles you link make, would Ma'an news be all over this as well?


That's nothing but conjecture. 



teddyearp said:


> AS for the map, it is to try to educate you that everytime they claim the 'mosque' is under attack, it is to show that they really want up on the Mount and could care less about the one little corner at the south end where the mosque stands.


An attack, is an attack.  It doesn't matter where it occurs, it's still an attack.



teddyearp said:


> Bill, you are going to believe what you want to, no matter how obviously false and ludicrous it is.


How can it be "obviously false", when you've presented no corroborative evidence to back up your objection?



teddyearp said:


> You did post once that you really don't care about the Israelis nor the Palestinians didn't you?


Yes I did.  And I still feel that way.



teddyearp said:


> Therefore it is pointless to debate with you, again since you believe any article full of false claims that suits your agenda that you want to.


Why would it be pointless?  I have no stake in this.  If you present evidence that proves the article false, I will acknowledge that and change my position. It is because this issue means nothing to me, that I would be the last guy defending his position to the bitter end.


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## Billo_Really (Nov 25, 2014)

MJB12741 said:


> Bottom line is if you want to live in Israel, don't mess with Israel.  But then Palestinians will be Palestinians so let's at least help them by sending body bags.


You watch too much TV.


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## teddyearp (Nov 26, 2014)

The lack of corroborating evidence to be found elsewhere is proof enough for me.  If I see some claims being made at only one web site and cannot find the same information elsewhere I become suspicious.


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## MJB12741 (Nov 26, 2014)

teddyearp said:


> MJB12741 said:
> 
> 
> > Please go easy on Billy.  We don't want to upset him.  We need him here for all the laughs he gives us.
> ...



No no.  That we leave for Billy to do so we can laugh at his misery over not being able to handle the truth.


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## MJB12741 (Nov 27, 2014)

Sure will be fun to see the Palestinian supporters bitch about how many more dead Palestinians than Israelis there will be when Israel takes action against this Palestinian terrorist massacre in a Jerusalem synagogue.


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