# Ford losing customers after discontinuing cars.... But I said that



## Frannie (Nov 14, 2019)

Someday I will be wrong.

You will not live that long however

Ford and Chevy Are Losing Buyers after Discontinuing Compact Cars


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## DGS49 (Nov 14, 2019)

Seems like it was a good business decision.  Those cars were not profitable, and SUV, CUV, and truck sales are doing well.  If they lose some customers to Toyota and Honda, that's regrettable but won't hurt the bottom line much.


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## Wyatt earp (Nov 14, 2019)

F150

Probably the best truck built on a mustang chassis ever


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## Ringel05 (Nov 14, 2019)

Frannie said:


> Someday I will be wrong.
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> You will not live that long however
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> Ford and Chevy Are Losing Buyers after Discontinuing Compact Cars


Other than a Mustang or Cobra I would NEVER own a Ford car, now Ford trucks on the other hand are simply the best and I've driven lots of trucks.  Ford trucks handle like cars, may they never change that suspension.


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## Frannie (Nov 14, 2019)

DGS49 said:


> Seems like it was a good business decision.  Those cars were not profitable, and SUV, CUV, and truck sales are doing well.  If they lose some customers to Toyota and Honda, that's regrettable but won't hurt the bottom line much.


Ford admitting that they are too dumb to compete with nips is certainly not a good business decision


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## Frannie (Nov 14, 2019)

Ringel05 said:


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The 250 superduty is unsafe at any speed, the torque converters do nothing except create bangs that are severe enough to cause spinal issues

Other than that you are right


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## Ringel05 (Nov 14, 2019)

Frannie said:


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Never needed anything bigger than a 150.........


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## Ringel05 (Nov 14, 2019)

Frannie said:


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> > Seems like it was a good business decision.  Those cars were not profitable, and SUV, CUV, and truck sales are doing well.  If they lose some customers to Toyota and Honda, that's regrettable but won't hurt the bottom line much.
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In your mind........  Glad you're such an expert in the automotive market.......


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## Frannie (Nov 14, 2019)

Ringel05 said:


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Wrong again

Ford and Chevy Are Losing Buyers after Discontinuing Compact Cars

Yawning


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## Andylusion (Nov 14, 2019)

Frannie said:


> Someday I will be wrong.
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> You will not live that long however
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> Ford and Chevy Are Losing Buyers after Discontinuing Compact Cars



They were money losers.

Ford Killing “Value Destroying” Sedans Because They Lose Money Every Year

UBS analyst Colin Langan told _Auto News _that Ford loses approximately $800 million a year selling small cars in the United States, which stands in stark contrast to Ford’s estimated $3 billion first-quarter profit on truck and utility sales.​
Having market share, just to lose money, is not smart.   

If you sold cookies, and you ended up losing a dollar for every cookie you sold, selling a million cookies, might make you the top selling cookie in your state, while you file for bankruptcy on a Million dollar loss.

Small cars have been money losers for years now.

Better to have a smaller market share, and be more profitable.


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## Frannie (Nov 14, 2019)

Ringel05 said:


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Has nothing to do with me but all to do with ford who decided for us that we no longer need cars


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## Andylusion (Nov 14, 2019)

Frannie said:


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> > Seems like it was a good business decision.  Those cars were not profitable, and SUV, CUV, and truck sales are doing well.  If they lose some customers to Toyota and Honda, that's regrettable but won't hurt the bottom line much.
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Too dumb?   I don't think it's a matter of intelligence.   You can't magically lower costs, just by being smart.   There is no method of just "willing" the cost of production to be cheaper.


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## Frannie (Nov 14, 2019)

Andylusion said:


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Why should I buy a truck from a company that is too dumb to build a profitable car


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## Frannie (Nov 14, 2019)

Andylusion said:


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Wrong Honda, Toyota and Nissan are doing it.

Ford just admitted that nips are better than the USA

So either they are better or ford is stupid


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## Andylusion (Nov 14, 2019)

Frannie said:


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That's for you to choose.     Why should they sell a car they lose money on?

I don't understand your question.   You are not obligated to buy a Ford.  If Ford isn't providing the product you want, then there are many others to buy from.  That's what Free-market capitalism is all about.  Find someone else that has the product you want.


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## Bob Blaylock (Nov 14, 2019)

I was very disappointed when Ford discontinued the Panther platform (Ford Crown Victoria, Lincoln Town Car, Mercury Marquis/Marauder), without coming out with a suitable successor to take its place.  They pretty much owned the police car and taxi markets with that platform, and a very large part of the stretch limousine market as well.


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## Frannie (Nov 14, 2019)

Andylusion said:


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What you are not grasping is that Ford has just admitted that they are not able to make good business decisions concerning automobiles so they quit......


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## HenryBHough (Nov 14, 2019)

The last good Escapes were built FOR Ford - not BY Ford.  The current Escape lacks the ground clearance of the earlier generation and is easily "high centered" when trying to get through moderately deep snow.

Last time I wanted an Escape replacement I had to defect from anything from Ford OR Government Motors (GM).


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## Andylusion (Nov 14, 2019)

Frannie said:


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Those are non-union. The cost of labor is lower, and thus they are able to make smaller cars and still be profitable.


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## Ringel05 (Nov 14, 2019)

Frannie said:


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You really are self absorbed, aren't you........


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## Ringel05 (Nov 14, 2019)

Frannie said:


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Wow!  What an expert.....


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## Frannie (Nov 14, 2019)

Andylusion said:


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Nope many of those cars are built right here


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## Frannie (Nov 14, 2019)

Ringel05 said:


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Yup car and driver is that


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## Andylusion (Nov 14, 2019)

Frannie said:


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Yeah, and they are non-union.

Toyota is non-union.  Honda is non-union.   The costs of union labor is much higher, than that of non-union.  This is well documented.







It's a little dated, but still fairly accurate to how different the cost of labor is, between Ford and other Domestic unionized automakers, and the Japanese ones.

But again the point is, with larger, higher value you vehicles, the domestics can still be profitable.   But for smaller cheaper cars, the Japanese makers have a huge advantage that they can produce lower value cars, and still make a profit because of the lower labor costs.

No amount of intelligence can change that fact for the domestics.


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## Frannie (Nov 14, 2019)

Andylusion said:


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Hondas and Toyota cars are for the most part built by Americans 

Ford cars are built by no one......

No one is not union either


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## Frannie (Nov 14, 2019)

Andylusion said:


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Can you prove that an american building a honda is paid less than an american building a ford

Need numbers


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## Ringel05 (Nov 14, 2019)

Frannie said:


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Oh my, someone wrote an article you agree with and now they're the only viable expert in the field......


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## Andylusion (Nov 14, 2019)

Frannie said:


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Do you mean other than the New York Times article directly detailing the difference in labor costs?

Foreign automakers pay from $38 to $65 per hour to non-union workers

As it stands, per-hour labor rates including benefits are $58 at General Motors, $57 at Ford, and $48 at Fiat-Chrysler

The Center for Automotive Research released a study of labor rates (including benefits) that put numbers to what the imports pay: Mercedes-Benz pays the most, at an average of $65 per hour, Volkswagen pays the least, at* $38 per hou*r, and BMW is just a hair above that at *$39 per hour*. Among the Detroit competitors, Honda workers earn an average of *$49 per hour*, at Toyota it's $*48 per hour*, Nissan is *$42 per hou*r, and Hyundai-Kia pays *$41 per hour.
*
There you go.

Toyota to Close Only Union Factory In U.S.

There will be little celebrating come Labor Day for the thousands of union workers who’ve been anxiously waiting for the news they did not want to hear: In March, Toyota will close its New United Motor Manufacturing (NUMMI) plant in Fremont, California.

It's the company's only unionized plant in the United States.​My understanding was that Toyota had no more union plants in North America.   In fact, I knew a girl who accidentally said something about unionizing (out of frustration) in a plant in Canada, and was fired the following day.

As far as I understand Toyota is absolutely not Unionized.


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## Frannie (Nov 15, 2019)

Ringel05 said:


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Technically since the article was posted to the internet after I said the same thing here, they agree with me

Ciao


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## mudwhistle (Nov 15, 2019)

Ringel05 said:


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Fords always have a problem with premature wear on front tires because of their front-end.....but other than that I have no problem with them. I owned a 91' Ranger and it was a pretty good truck.


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## CWayne (Nov 15, 2019)

Frannie said:


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You cannot buy cars anywhere now that Ford has decided you cannot buy a car?


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## Frannie (Nov 15, 2019)

Andylusion said:


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Well since ford pays so much perhaps they should hire some Jap engineers who could figure out how Ford can make a profitable car before Ford loses 100 percent of the American car market share.

They can start by putting a muffler on the mustang that is not a thousand dollar option

Lol

See neither you or ford can win as an American by giving away share to Japan and Germany


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## CWayne (Nov 15, 2019)

Frannie said:


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So, you solved your own dilemma.  Don't buy from them.


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## Frannie (Nov 15, 2019)

mudwhistle said:


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Every new ranger seems to have a rattler in the dash


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## Frannie (Nov 15, 2019)

CWayne said:


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Ford is discontinuing all car manufacturing

Now you know

Knowledge is power


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## CWayne (Nov 15, 2019)

Frannie said:


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Other manufacturers make cars.  Now you know.  Knowledge is power.


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## hjmick (Nov 15, 2019)

Ford will be just fine. Anyone believing otherwise is an idiot.


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## Ringel05 (Nov 15, 2019)

Frannie said:


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Sooooo, it's a circle jerk.......  Got it.  

Ya might want to look up Confirmation Bias.........  And then apply it to yourself.


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## Desperado (Nov 15, 2019)

with decisions like a 4 door mustang they deserve to loose money


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## Frannie (Nov 15, 2019)

hjmick said:


> Ford will be just fine. Anyone believing otherwise is an idiot.


Ford can not produce a profitable car and now they think people are all going to buy 50k trucks.

LOL in what world


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## Frannie (Nov 15, 2019)

Ringel05 said:


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Have you ever paid an extra thousand bucks for a muffler on a new car?

Only if you were stupid enough to buy a mustang

See kid if Ford knew what to do they would do it and make a profit, they are clueless and are giving 100 percent market share to the Japs


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## Ringel05 (Nov 15, 2019)

Frannie said:


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What a friggin' moron......


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## Frannie (Nov 15, 2019)

Ringel05 said:


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Now you are catching on

The muffler is 995 dollars extra, Ford can't find enough people to screw over to make a profit...……..


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## Andylusion (Nov 15, 2019)

Frannie said:


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Well again... if the labor costs too much, there is no way to 'engineer' lower costing labor.

I mean you do realize that tossing expensive engineers at a money losing project, does not always equal making it profitable, right?   My uncle was an engineer.  He was pulling down $150K a year.   You throw multiple teams of engineers on a multi-year project, and that is easily millions or billions of dollars.

Why Does It Cost So Much For Automakers To Develop New Models?

The rough estimates, are that it takes an average of four years, to go from concept to production.  Four years, to get a car from a pencil sketch, to a working model.

During that time, the company will spend on average, between $1 Billion at the low end, to $6 Billion at the top end. 

And then you have to recoup that cost, by selling a $20,000 car.





Ford's profit margin is barely 8.7%.  But I wager that the profit margin on smaller cars is less than half that, because that's the average profit margin, which includes all of Ford's much higher priced vehicles.

But 8.7% of $20K, is a profit of $1,740 per car.   How many cars do you need to sell, to make back just a Billion dollars in capital investment?   Ford's top selling passenger car, only sold about 100,000 last year.   It would take years on years just to break even, and that assumes that the profit margin is 8.7%, which for low end cars I promise you it isn't.

We don't have exact numbers because most manufactures keep that information hidden.  You can estimate based on shareholder relations publications, and we can see how much money was spent on R&D, and see profit levels from different divisions.   But it's still an estimate.

*However, while all this is interesting, it misses a key problem.*

The key issue with your logic, is that you are ignoring market reactions.

Let me explain.   You are thinking that if they simply hired enough engineers, they could perhaps engineer a cheaper product.   Like if you hired engineers, and they designed a cheaper engine, that cost half as much, and still performed as well.

And that is in theory possible.

But the problem, is the market will react to that.   The market doesn't just sit there, and let you take over.

Say you open a lemonade stand, and someone opens another stand a block away from you.   You are just barely making a profit, and you look down and see they are selling the same lemonade for a $1 less a cup.   You start investigating.  How are they doing that?    You find out that they were buying straws in bulk, while you were buying little 10-packs that are expensive.

What are you going to do?   You are going to also start buying in bulk, and then lower your price by $1, so you avoid losing customers and going out of business.

*The same is true everywhere*.  Yeah, you might hire some engineers that design a cheaper engine that is just as good.  But the moment you do that, Toyota is going to look over, and investigate this cheaper engine, and then design their own cheaper engine.

Then you are back to the same situation you were in before, where the cost of Union labor, is still higher than the cost of Japanese non-union labor.

Whatever money saving engineering they do at Ford, or GM, or Chrysler, is all going to be looked at, investigated, and designed by the Japanese or other companies.

And in the end, it will be back to a difference in labor costs.

There is only one solution that will allow domestic auto manufacturers to compete with non-union manufacturers.... get rid of the Unions.  You have to lower the cost of labor, and then you can compete on equal grounds.  No amount of engineering is going to fix that.


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## Ringel05 (Nov 15, 2019)

Frannie said:


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I've seen some bad brain wiring before in my life son but you take the cake.


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## Frannie (Nov 15, 2019)

Andylusion said:


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Abandoning a losing project makes economic sense in the short term, however admitting that a company can not compete and as a result handing untold billions more in profits to foreign competitors is only a long range path to bankruptcy.

What you fail to understand is that if wages are the problem Ford is paying those same wages to those building trucks and Nissan, Toyota and Honda will now have more billions to design Trucks...….  Ford has already given up

You want funny, read this

4 cylinder toy motor and dash rattle included
2019 Ford Ranger Lariat in Keyport, NJ | New York City Ford Ranger | Toms Ford Inc

I always wanted a 2.3 liter engine in a pickup

No other option exist

or this for 75 grand

2020 Ford F-150 Limited in Keyport, NJ | New York City Ford F-150 | Toms Ford Inc

Crack not included


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## Frannie (Nov 15, 2019)

Ringel05 said:


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Yea the FBI said that too...…………….Then disappeared tails between their legs

True story


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## Ringel05 (Nov 15, 2019)

Frannie said:


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Is that why you're a USMB Online Insane Asylum inmate?


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## Andylusion (Nov 15, 2019)

Frannie said:


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Everything you said there, I would agree at some level.   I don't think they are 'handing billions in profits to" other companies, only because they were not making billions in profits.

The low end cars were not profitable.  So they are not handing a dollar of profits to anyone, because they were losing money, not gaining it.

If you and me are running competing lemonade stands, and I'm losing money on every cup of lemonade sold.... me selling off my money losing stand to you, isn't giving you profits.... because I had no profits.  That's why I sold it.

However, I would agree with you that Ford and GM and Chrysler leaving the low end market, is only a temporary fix.   In the short term, they stop the money loss, but in the long term, the same problem will simply move up the chain.

The same labor cost issue, that made them noncompetitive in the low end market, will simply move up to the high end market.

Eventually the same cheaper labor that allowed Toyota to defeat Ford in the cheap car market, will also allow them to defeat Ford in the mid-size truck market.   It's just a matter of time.

At some point, all these companies will need to face off with the Unions.  They either need to close all their union plants, and open all non-union plants.... or they need to directly force the Unions into negotiating their contracts, for much lower benefits and wages.

I don't see that happening.    The bottom line is, I don't see the big three being able to shake off the Unions, or getting them to make heavy concessions.

So my long term view on this......  I think that we will someday, and perhaps even soon, see a time where the big three auto makers are no longer dominate in the US market.   I think we will see all three of them end up subsidiaries, or perhaps niche players in the market.

Now I don't know when that will happen, but I think that is the future of the US auto market.   The only chance is if we have a really bad crash, that causes all of them to file for bankruptcy, and that either forces the Unions out, or forces the Unions into heavy concessions.

And I don't see that as likely either.   When GM filed bankruptcy, the Obama Government bent over backwards to help the Unions.   The Unions were rewarded for not making the concessions that GM needed to avoid bankruptcy.   So there is little incentive for Unions to help Ford stay dominate in the market.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Nov 15, 2019)

Frannie said:


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  The F150 is the best selling truck in the country.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Nov 15, 2019)

Frannie said:


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  I paid way more than that to get the dual mufflers on my Tundra when I bought it.


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## rightwinger (Nov 15, 2019)

Frannie said:


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That is not the market they want 
No money in compact sedans


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## Frannie (Nov 15, 2019)

Ringel05 said:


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Have you been a follower your entire life?

Yea you have


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## Frannie (Nov 15, 2019)

rightwinger said:


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Toyota Honda and Nissan are making billions in compact sedans.

Ford needs to hire some Japs to run the company

So Ford made compact sedans because it was not the market they wanted.

OKEEDOKEE

Makes sense yupper


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## Ringel05 (Nov 15, 2019)

Frannie said:


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Wow, like that response wasn't expected........  Or original........


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## Ringel05 (Nov 15, 2019)

HereWeGoAgain said:


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There you go, you've done it now!!!  You confused him with reality!!!


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## Frannie (Nov 15, 2019)

HereWeGoAgain said:


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The mustang comes stock with a racing muffler that will wake the entire neighborhood.  Luckily ford includes a real muffler for another grand...………….

90 percent of people do not want a racing muffler which will wake the entire neighborhood.

This is why Ford is no longer making cars.

I am actually trying to help these morons


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## HereWeGoAgain (Nov 15, 2019)

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  You do know that auto manufacturers aren't allowed to put overly loud exhausts on their vehicles right?


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## hjmick (Nov 15, 2019)

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Based on this thread, I'd say no, he is completely ignorant to that fact.


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## Frannie (Nov 15, 2019)

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You do know that Ford puts the loudest muffler allowable on GT's and charges another thousand bucks for the real quiet one.  I would not mind if this were reversed and the performance user opts for the performance muffler.  This egregious error is why Ford is no longer making cars as you can only fu.ck the customer so much then they fu,ck you back


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## Frannie (Nov 15, 2019)

hjmick said:


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I have test driven one stingray, 5 mustangs and three acuras in the last week.

How bout u


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## HereWeGoAgain (Nov 15, 2019)

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  So what,it's within gov regulations.
And the car is a performance vehicle so the vast majority want a somewhat loud exhaust.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Nov 15, 2019)

Frannie said:


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   And?


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## Frannie (Nov 15, 2019)

HereWeGoAgain said:


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Not me and since Ford is abandoning cars because they have no clue what consumers want, someone might want to rethink their options list...……….


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## Frannie (Nov 15, 2019)

HereWeGoAgain said:


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Ray wins, quiet exhaust included at no extra charge, I can pay more for the noisy one that bumps on 5 more horses

Price, the vette cost less


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## HereWeGoAgain (Nov 15, 2019)

Frannie said:


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  You obviously dont live in the South....


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## HereWeGoAgain (Nov 15, 2019)

Frannie said:


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  If you want quiet you should probably just buy a Prius.


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## Frannie (Nov 15, 2019)

HereWeGoAgain said:


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Face it Ford is charging 1000 dollars for the muffler that should be stock.  This is what Chevy does on the vette, if you want the performance muffler you order it. 

PS Ford is no longer making cars for the South and by the way there is only one America to me, South and North was fixed long ago


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## Frannie (Nov 15, 2019)

HereWeGoAgain said:


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Or a ceramic grey 2019 Vette, stock muffler is fine with me


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## HereWeGoAgain (Nov 15, 2019)

Frannie said:


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    Why would Ford put a quiet muffler on a new vehicle when they knew customers wanted a somewhat loud exhaust note?
     Thats pure ignorance.


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## Ringel05 (Nov 15, 2019)

Frannie said:


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Now you're an expert on what consumers want......


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## Frannie (Nov 15, 2019)

HereWeGoAgain said:


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And your mentality has Ford abandoning car manufacturing


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## Frannie (Nov 15, 2019)

Ringel05 said:


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Ford is being different, and can't sell enough cars to break even.

I know not to buy Ford stock


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## HereWeGoAgain (Nov 15, 2019)

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  They're still going to make the Mustang...which incidentally is the only car I would consider in the Ford line up.


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## Frannie (Nov 15, 2019)

HereWeGoAgain said:


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They are also putting 1.5 liter lawnmower engines with Romanian made turbos on sport utilities.

Why?

Because Americans are dumb enough to buy them.

I could go into any Ford dealer where someone is buying an escape and ask them to explain how a turbo works and get all blank stares.  When these all blow up together there will be another bailout.

Ford Romania - Wikipedia


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## Ringel05 (Nov 15, 2019)

Frannie said:


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Well good for you.......


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## Frannie (Nov 15, 2019)

HereWeGoAgain said:


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I considered it too until the price topped a new 2019 Stingray at which point Ford lost


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## HereWeGoAgain (Nov 15, 2019)

Frannie said:


> HereWeGoAgain said:
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  Well show me the prices.


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## OnePercenter (Nov 15, 2019)

Frannie said:


> Ringel05 said:
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Nah, fat guys can't get into cars.


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## Frannie (Nov 15, 2019)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> Frannie said:
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Standard response.

I could tell you, but I would have to kill you.

However you can shop around on your own as mustangs easily go to over 50 grand not including the Shelbys that have no warrantee by Ford


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## Frannie (Nov 15, 2019)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> Frannie said:
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For the record, dead isn't funny

Here you go

Arctic White 2019 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray Coupe 1LT for Sale in Maryland - 1G1YA2D71K5124439


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## westwall (Nov 15, 2019)

Ringel05 said:


> Frannie said:
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Most trolls are.


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## Frannie (Nov 15, 2019)

westwall said:


> Ringel05 said:
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> > Frannie said:
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Arctic White 2019 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray Coupe 1LT for Sale in Maryland - 1G1YA2D71K5124439

Weep away fool

And enjoy the cars ford cant make


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## Ringel05 (Nov 15, 2019)

westwall said:


> Ringel05 said:
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I would know.........


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## Frannie (Nov 15, 2019)

Ringel05 said:


> westwall said:
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Lol

Arctic White 2019 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray Coupe 1LT for Sale in Maryland - 1G1YA2D71K5124439


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## westwall (Nov 15, 2019)

Frannie said:


> westwall said:
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Weep for what?  I already have my new Vette ordered.  And, I own a real GT40 worth more than everything you own.  I learned a long time ago that there are always people who have more than you.  I learned that it doesn't matter so long as I have the things I want.  I do.  I am buying an Elva Courier MKII as well so I can go vintage racing.  I like racing.  I just haven't done it for a while because my race car was too valuable to race.  The Elva isn't.  I can bend it and I won't care.

You try to impress people because you are insecure, a loser, and a troll.  I don't try to impress people because I don't care what they think of me.  I just do what I do and if they are interested I will tell them what they want to know.  Not to impress but because they want to learn..


You aren't grown up enough yet to know that.


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## Frannie (Nov 15, 2019)

westwall said:


> Frannie said:
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Thanks for being my internet pet troll


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## Ringel05 (Nov 15, 2019)

westwall said:


> Frannie said:
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Since you're buying cars the wife could use a new Prius.......


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## Ringel05 (Nov 15, 2019)

Frannie said:


> westwall said:
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Thanks for the entertainment!!


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## westwall (Nov 15, 2019)

Ringel05 said:


> westwall said:
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Sorry dude, I only buy real cars!


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## Ringel05 (Nov 15, 2019)

westwall said:


> Ringel05 said:
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She'll take a Mustang.......


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## westwall (Nov 15, 2019)

Ringel05 said:


> westwall said:
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Ask frannie....he's an "expert"


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## Ringel05 (Nov 15, 2019)

westwall said:


> Ringel05 said:
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Don'tcha mean ex spurt?


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## Frannie (Nov 15, 2019)

Ringel05 said:


> westwall said:
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Hey dingleberry since you have admitted that you are a troll I am ignoring you.

Enjoy jerking off as usual on your own

CIAO


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## Ringel05 (Nov 15, 2019)

Frannie said:


> Ringel05 said:
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If you need some tampons I'm sure your local store has them.  Tissues also.


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