# Soy is making kids 'gay'



## ScreamingEagle (Dec 13, 2006)

Not to mention a bunch of other health problems.

World Net Daily
December 12, 2006

There's a slow poison out there that's severely damaging our children and threatening to tear apart our culture. The ironic part is, it's a "health food," one of our most popular. 

Now, I'm a health-food guy, a fanatic who seldom allows anything into his kitchen unless it's organic. I state my bias here just so you'll know I'm not anti-health food. 

The dangerous food I'm speaking of is soy. Soybean products are feminizing, and they're all over the place. You can hardly escape them anymore. 

I have nothing against an occasional soy snack. Soy is nutritious and contains lots of good things. Unfortunately, when you eat or drink a lot of soy stuff, you're also getting substantial quantities of estrogens. 

Estrogens are female hormones. If you're a woman, you're flooding your system with a substance it can't handle in surplus. If you're a man, you're suppressing your masculinity and stimulating your "female side," physically and mentally. 

In fetal development, the default is being female. All humans (even in old age) tend toward femininity. The main thing that keeps men from diverging into the female pattern is testosterone, and testosterone is suppressed by an excess of estrogen. 

If you're a grownup, you're already developed, and you're able to fight off some of the damaging effects of soy. Babies aren't so fortunate. Research is now showing that *when you feed your baby soy formula, you're giving him or her the equivalent of five birth control pills a day*. A baby's endocrine system just can't cope with that kind of massive assault, so some damage is inevitable. At the extreme, the damage can be fatal. 

*Soy is feminizing, and commonly leads to a decrease in the size of the penis, sexual confusion and homosexuality. *That's why most of the medical (not socio-spiritual) blame for today's rise in homosexuality must fall upon the rise in soy formula and other soy products. (Most babies are bottle-fed during some part of their infancy, and one-fourth of them are getting soy milk!) Homosexuals often argue that their homosexuality is inborn because "I can't remember a time when I wasn't homosexual." No, homosexuality is always deviant. But now many of them can truthfully say that they can't remember a time when excess estrogen wasn't influencing them. 

Doctors used to hope soy would reduce hot flashes, prevent cancer and heart disease, and save millions in the Third World from starvation. That was before they knew much about long-term soy use. Now we know it's a classic example of a cure that's worse than the disease. For example, if your baby gets colic from cow's milk, do you switch him to soy milk? Don't even think about it. His phytoestrogen level will jump to 20 times normal. If he is a she, brace yourself for watching her reach menarche as young as seven, robbing her of years of childhood. If he is a boy, it's far worse: He may not reach puberty till much later than normal. 

*Research in 2000 showed that a soy-based diet at any age can lead to a weak thyroid, which commonly produces heart problems and excess fat. *Could this explain the dramatic increase in obesity today? 

Recent research on rats shows testicular atrophy, *infertility *and uterus hypertrophy (enlargement). This helps explain the infertility epidemic and the sudden growth in fertility clinics. But alas, by the time a soy-damaged infant has grown to adulthood and wants to marry, it's too late to get fixed by a fertility clinic. 

Worse, there's now scientific evidence that estrogen ingredients in soy products may be boosting the rapidly rising incidence of *leukemia in children*. In the latest year we have numbers for, new cases in the U.S. jumped 27 percent. In one year! 

*There's also a serious connection between soy and cancer in adults &#8211; especially breast cancer. *That's why the governments of Israel, the UK, France and New Zealand are already cracking down hard on soy. 

In sad contrast, 60 percent of the refined foods in U.S. supermarkets now contain soy. Worse, soy use may double in the next few years because (last I heard) the out-of-touch medicrats in the FDA hierarchy are considering allowing manufacturers of cereal, energy bars, fake milk, fake yogurt, etc., to claim that "soy prevents cancer." It doesn't. 

P.S.: Soy sauce is fine. Unlike soy milk, it's perfectly safe because it's fermented, which changes its molecular structure. Miso, natto and tempeh are also OK, but avoid tofu. 

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53327


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## Nienna (Dec 13, 2006)

Excess of anything is always bad for you. The best diet is a variety of "normal" foods, and not overeating.


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## Annie (Dec 13, 2006)

Nienna said:


> Excess of anything is always bad for you. The best diet is a variety of "normal" foods, and not overeating.



Yeah, I've been working towards more 'organic' foods, when prices will allow.


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## MissileMan (Dec 13, 2006)

ScreamingEagle said:


> Not to mention a bunch of other health problems.
> 
> World Net Daily
> December 12, 2006
> ...



http://www.drgreene.com/21_536.html


> Is Soy Formula Safe?
> Parents frequently ask me about the safety of soy formula for infants. Babies who drink soy formula receive significant amounts of estrogen-like compounds (phytoestrogens) in the form of soy isoflavones. This happens at a developmental time when permanent effects are theoretically possible. Some have speculated that soy formula might be responsible for early puberty in girls or infertility in boys. The August 15, 2001 issue of The Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) contains the results of a study of 811 adults, some of who drank soy formula as children and others who drank milk-based formulas. No statistically significant differences were observed between the groups in either women or men. They followed more than 30 different measures of general health or reproductive health. Breast milk is clearly the ideal food for babies, but this study is quite reassuring that soy formulas are a safe alternative. This is good news for babies who do not tolerate cow's milk formulas well.



One of these 2 are wrong


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## Kagom (Dec 13, 2006)

MissileMan said:


> http://www.drgreene.com/21_536.html
> 
> 
> One of these 2 are wrong


I believe the WND article is wrong.


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## jillian (Dec 13, 2006)

Hmmmmmmm.... I'm thinking you have to have an awful lot of soy for its estrogenic properties to be a problem. 

I'm figuring it's like anything else.... enough's enough and too much stinks.


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## MissileMan (Dec 13, 2006)

jillian said:


> Hmmmmmmm.... I'm thinking you have to have an awful lot of soy for its estrogenic properties to be a problem.
> 
> I'm figuring it's like anything else.... enough's enough and too much stinks.



An interesting switch from gay is a choice to gay is caused by soy-poisoning though...


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## glockmail (Dec 13, 2006)

Kagom said:


> I believe the WND article is wrong.


 At least you be consistent, friend. Because I was about to say: "but I thought you were born that way?"

BTW how was my martini last week?


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## glockmail (Dec 13, 2006)

jillian said:


> Hmmmmmmm.... I'm thinking you have to have an awful lot of soy for its estrogenic properties to be a problem.
> 
> I'm figuring it's like anything else.... enough's enough and too much stinks.


Aristotles Golden Mean?


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## Kagom (Dec 13, 2006)

glockmail said:


> At least you be consistent, friend. Because I was about to say: "but I thought you were born that way?"
> 
> BTW how was my martini last week?


Oh hell, I'd have downed a couple of those martinis if I had the ingredients.  This weekend was fun, but very rough.  Monday too.


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## ScreamingEagle (Dec 13, 2006)

Kagom said:


> I believe the WND article is wrong.



Why is that Kagom? 

For some reason, unlike trans fats, I doubt this product will ever be banned by liberals.


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## Yurt (Dec 13, 2006)

I grew up on soy, guarantee not gay.  

uh, no smilie to end this


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## Kagom (Dec 13, 2006)

ScreamingEagle said:


> Why is that Kagom?
> 
> For some reason, unlike trans fats, I doubt this product will ever be banned by liberals.


Lemme put it this way: I know people who consume a ton of soy and aren't gay.  I know people who don't consume ANY soy (such as myself) and are gay.   Then there are those who are lactose intolerant and have to have a lot of soy products to get waht most of us can get and aren't gay.

It's full of shit and holes.


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## ScreamingEagle (Dec 13, 2006)

Kagom said:


> Lemme put it this way: I know people who consume a ton of soy and aren't gay.  I know people who don't consume ANY soy (such as myself) and are gay.   Then there are those who are lactose intolerant and have to have a lot of soy products to get waht most of us can get and aren't gay.
> 
> It's full of shit and holes.



Hey, I know a ton of people who eat trans fats and they aren't dying either.

It didn't claim that everybody who ate it would turn (where's that gay smilie?)  But if it was banned it might reduce the number of boyfriends available to you.


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## Kagom (Dec 13, 2006)

ScreamingEagle said:


> Hey, I know a ton of people who eat trans fats and they aren't dying either.
> 
> It didn't claim that everybody who ate it would turn (where's that gay smilie?)  But if it was banned it might reduce the number of boyfriends available to you.


I highly doubt that.  Most guys I"ve dated don't eat soy and those who do are vegetarians or vegans.  I have to date other meat eaters, I'd go insane with salads and vegetarian "treats" every day or cheese pizza every time (I'm a major pepperoni and bacon fan).


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## 90K (Dec 14, 2006)

Kagom said:


> I highly doubt that.  Most guys I"ve dated don't eat soy and those who do are vegetarians or vegans.  I have to date other meat eaters, I'd go insane with salads and vegetarian "treats" every day or cheese pizza every time (I'm a major pepperoni and bacon fan).



TMI.... it is just some hoax like many of these so called studies and research done.  Hell it's awonder we all ain't totally messed up


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## KarlMarx (Dec 14, 2006)

Kagom said:


> I highly doubt that.  Most guys I"ve dated don't eat soy and those who do are vegetarians or vegans.  I have to date other meat eaters, I'd go insane with salads and vegetarian "treats" every day or cheese pizza every time (I'm a major pepperoni and bacon fan).



I love bacon, cheese, pepperoni, prosciutto, percorino romano cheese... I grew up in an Italian household and those were all available in abundance. However, take my advice, wean yourself away from eating that stuff on a regular basis... it's not good for your cholesterol... at 19, I'm sure you don't care, but you will care in about 10 years or so.... plus it all makes you overweight... and it's easier to put on the pounds than lose them...


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## jillian (Dec 14, 2006)

MissileMan said:


> An interesting switch from gay is a choice to gay is caused by soy-poisoning though...



I wasn't thinking in terms of gay.. lol.. I was thinking more in terms of hormones. ;o)


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## glockmail (Dec 14, 2006)

Kagom said:


> Oh hell, I'd have downed a couple of those martinis if I had the ingredients.  This weekend was fun, but very rough.  Monday too.


  Sorry. I didn't know you were only 14 when I gave you the recipie.


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## glockmail (Dec 14, 2006)

jillian said:


> I wasn't thinking in terms of gay.. lol.. I was thinking more in terms of hormones. ;o)


So is it a lack of teresterone or too much that causes guys to turn gay?


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## 90K (Dec 14, 2006)

glockmail said:


> So is it a lack of teresterone or too much that causes guys to turn gay?



How about a over bearing mother for starters.


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## Nienna (Dec 14, 2006)

90K said:


> How about a over bearing mother for starters.



And absent or abusive fathers.


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## 90K (Dec 14, 2006)

Nienna said:


> And absent or abusive fathers.



So I'd say food isn't the reason but lack off or too much human contact with reguards to family or exteneded family would be more of the root cause on an opinion basis.


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## glockmail (Dec 14, 2006)

90K said:


> So I'd say food isn't the reason but lack off or too much human contact with reguards to family or exteneded family would be more of the root cause on an opinion basis.


 But that doesn't jive with the gay agenda: it's "natural".


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## 90K (Dec 14, 2006)

glockmail said:


> But that doesn't jive with the gay agenda: it's "natural".



That is what I've heard, but you see I ain't gay I did have an option and I chose females,  I was molested as a child so I don't agree with agendas.  The people this effects have feelings and are living souls who can be great friends and companions as long as those agendas don't tread on me.  You could say I get a wee touchy on agendas. That may have been TMI:embarassed:


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## glockmail (Dec 14, 2006)

90K said:


> That is what I've heard, but you see I ain't gay I did have an option and I chose females,  ....



To me it's obvious why boys turn gay:

- they can't find girls who are as horny as they are;
- society tells them that it's normal, natural;
- they are defiant towards their parents and traditional values.


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## 90K (Dec 14, 2006)

glockmail said:


> To me it's obvious why boys turn gay:
> 
> - they can't find girls who are as horny as they are;
> - society tells them that it's normal, natural;
> - they are defiant towards their parents and traditional values.



Yeah but one other link her is gay women, I believe the mind is altered because of an event(s) that took place. Yes possibly it is society saying it is ok to be or act gay, I mean look at the media and all the hype lately. I really don't see it.  I know a few gay men that are very nice and very funny, but we understand our boundaries. What gets me are those butch women. I don't like them much, no use for them at all. And there agenda is straight up hate.


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## lilcountriegal (Dec 14, 2006)

MissileMan said:


> http://www.drgreene.com/21_536.html
> 
> 
> One of these 2 are wrong



I hadnt heard of this debate regarding soy... I'll get back to you on which article is wrong.  I plan to ask my Pediatrician next week.  My 9 month old daughter has been on Soy Formula since she was about 1 month old because she cant tolerate the Milk based Similac.  Even the suggestion that it "may" cause problems later in life raises a pretty large red flag for me.


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## Joz (Dec 14, 2006)

I have been a vegetarian for 25 years.  Not a vegan, but a lacto-ovo meaning I do eat dairy products.  I raised both of my sons that way as well.  I breast fed them both but they did eat meat-substitute products.
Both are quite manly, over 6' tall, had ample packages and neither are gay.


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## no1tovote4 (Dec 14, 2006)

lilcountriegal said:


> I hadnt heard of this debate regarding soy... I'll get back to you on which article is wrong.  I plan to ask my Pediatrician next week.  My 9 month old daughter has been on Soy Formula since she was about 1 month old because she cant tolerate the Milk based Similac.  Even the suggestion that it "may" cause problems later in life raises a pretty large red flag for me.



Whazzup, country gal!  Long time no speak!  Anyway, I'd love to see the peer review on this particular study...


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## dmp (Dec 14, 2006)

lilcountriegal said:


> I hadnt heard of this debate regarding soy... I'll get back to you on which article is wrong.  I plan to ask my Pediatrician next week.  My 9 month old daughter has been on Soy Formula since she was about 1 month old because she cant tolerate the Milk based Similac.  Even the suggestion that it "may" cause problems later in life raises a pretty large red flag for me.





HOLY LORD it's a GHOST!!!


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## lilcountriegal (Dec 14, 2006)

Boo :shade: 

I've been a chronic lurker... just fell into suburbia and havent had the time to post lately.  

On a lighter note regarding the soy story.. One thing I DO know for sure is that it does make for reeeeally stinky craps.


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## dmp (Dec 14, 2006)

dang it - Mary bet me $20 that I would NOT see 'stinky craps' online today...I didn't take her up on the offer


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## glockmail (Dec 14, 2006)

90K said:


> Yeah but one other link her is gay women, I believe the mind is altered because of an event(s) that took place. Yes possibly it is society saying it is ok to be or act gay, I mean look at the media and all the hype lately. I really don't see it.  I know a few gay men that are very nice and very funny, but we understand our boundaries. What gets me are those butch women. I don't like them much, no use for them at all. And there agenda is straight up hate.



To me it's obvious why girls turn butch:

- they can't find boys who like them;
- society tells them that it's normal, natural;
- they are defiant towards their parents and traditional values.


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## Kagom (Dec 14, 2006)

KarlMarx said:


> I love bacon, cheese, pepperoni, prosciutto, percorino romano cheese... I grew up in an Italian household and those were all available in abundance. However, take my advice, wean yourself away from eating that stuff on a regular basis... it's not good for your cholesterol... at 19, I'm sure you don't care, but you will care in about 10 years or so.... plus it all makes you overweight... and it's easier to put on the pounds than lose them...


I've gone through the overweight thing.  I don't miss it.  I definitely don't eat this stuff everyday or even once a week.


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## dmp (Dec 14, 2006)

glockmail said:


> To me it's obvious why girls turn butch:
> 
> - they can't find boys who like them;
> - society tells them that it's normal, natural;
> - they are defiant towards their parents and traditional values.



...their fathers failed them...


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## 90K (Dec 14, 2006)

glockmail said:


> To me it's obvious why girls turn butch:
> 
> - they can't find boys who like them;
> - society tells them that it's normal, natural;
> - they are defiant towards their parents and traditional values.



it's actually the soy that did it!


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## dmp (Dec 14, 2006)

The fallacy to this thread/argument/soy thing is this:

Nobody is MADE Gay.  People CHOOSE homosexuality like people choose lots of destructive behaviours.  (shrug).


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## 90K (Dec 14, 2006)

dmp said:


> The fallacy to this thread/argument/soy thing is this:
> 
> Nobody is MADE Gay.  People CHOOSE homosexuality like people choose lots of destructive behaviours.  (shrug).



Yeah my point exactly.


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## jillian (Dec 14, 2006)

dmp said:


> The fallacy to this thread/argument/soy thing is this:
> 
> Nobody is MADE Gay.  People CHOOSE homosexuality like people choose lots of destructive behaviours.  (shrug).



Right... because you say so and for whatever reason you need to believe that.


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## Joz (Dec 14, 2006)

ScreamingEagle said:


> *Soy is feminizing, *


*If this were truly the case, then there wouldn't be a vegetarian lesbian on the planet.*


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## glockmail (Dec 14, 2006)

jillian said:


> Right... because you say so and for whatever reason you need to believe that.


 I'm still waiting for y'all liberals to produce the gay gene.


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## 90K (Dec 14, 2006)

glockmail said:


> I'm still waiting for y'all liberals to produce the gay gene.



give it long enough they can clone it!


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## glockmail (Dec 14, 2006)

Joz said:


> I have been a vegetarian for 25 years.  Not a vegan, but a lacto-ovo meaning I do eat dairy products.  I raised both of my sons that way as well.  I breast fed them both but they did eat meat-substitute products.
> Both are quite manly, over 6' tall, had ample packages and neither are gay.




LOL, I thought you were a guy. Must have sore man-boobs!


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## dmp (Dec 14, 2006)

Sorry - tried to resist, but I have to make my token:

The child would be better-served to have never been born, than to be born into a homosexual-couple's responsibility.   Poor, POOR kid.


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## Kagom (Dec 14, 2006)

dmp said:


> Sorry - tried to resist, but I have to make my token:
> 
> The child would be better-served to have never been born, than to be born into a homosexual-couple's responsibility.   Poor, POOR kid.


Abortion-on-the-go for gay couples~


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## Gunny (Dec 14, 2006)

Kagom said:


> Abortion-on-the-go for gay couples~



Wouldn't apply.  Gays cannot reproduce naturally, IF they stick to their aberrant lifestyle choice.

It's a crying shame gays can adopt children.


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## glockmail (Dec 14, 2006)

GunnyL said:


> Wouldn't apply.  Gays cannot reproduce naturally, IF they stick to their aberrant lifestyle choice.
> 
> It's a crying shame gays can adopt children.


 That's becasue gays sucessfully infiltrated the APA and took gay off the list of disorders. Yet they put half of our kids on Ridlin!


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## MissileMan (Dec 14, 2006)

glockmail said:


> That's becasue gays sucessfully infiltrated the APA and took gay off the list of disorders. Yet they put half of our kids on Ridlin!



Which is it...a choice or a mental disorder?


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## Kagom (Dec 14, 2006)

Gunny: I'm talking about those damn, heathenistic Lesbians who are artificially inseminated.

glock: Yeah, because those friggin' queers just had to have it their way, like at BK!


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## glockmail (Dec 14, 2006)

MissileMan said:


> Which is it...a choice or a mental disorder?


 both


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## Gunny (Dec 14, 2006)

MissileMan said:


> Which is it...a choice or a mental disorder?



You REALLY want to do this _again_?  Since it cannot be proven to be either a choice nor genetic, this argument always ends in a stalemate ... my opinion vs. yours.

You must be bored.


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## Joz (Dec 14, 2006)

glockmail said:


> LOL, I thought you were a guy. Must have sore man-boobs!


I see I should have never posted the picture of that gun!  But don't you think that's a bit sexist?   

I'm sorry to disappoint you but I am a 5'4, greeneyed, redheaded woman.


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## Kagom (Dec 14, 2006)

Joz said:


> I see I should have never posted the picture of that gun!  But don't you think that's a bit sexist?
> 
> I'm sorry to disappoint you but I am a 5'4, greeneyed, redheaded woman.


Completely off-topic: Red hair is sexy.


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## MissileMan (Dec 14, 2006)

GunnyL said:


> You REALLY want to do this _again_?  Since it cannot be proven to be either a choice nor genetic, this argument always ends in a stalemate ... my opinion vs. yours.
> 
> You must be bored.



There was a complaint that the APA removed homosexuality from it's list of mental disorders.  This implies a belief that homosexuality IS a mental disorder.  I think it's really dishonest to try to argue both mental disorder AND choice...people don't choose to have a mental disorder.

And while some are going to argue that the choice being made is living with the disorder, that argument is dishonest too.  We don't make "choice" arguments for other disorders.

What it really boils down to is those vehemently opposed to homosexuality are upset that they lost "sick" off their list of reasons the rest of us should agree with them.


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## Gunny (Dec 14, 2006)

MissileMan said:


> There was a complaint that the APA removed homosexuality from it's list of mental disorders.  This implies a belief that homosexuality IS a mental disorder.  I think it's really dishonest to try to argue both mental disorder AND choice...people don't choose to have a mental disorder.
> 
> And while some are going to argue that the choice being made is living with the disorder, that argument is dishonest too.  We don't make "choice" arguments for other disorders.
> 
> What it really boils down to is those vehemently opposed to homosexuality are upset that they lost "sick" off their list of reasons the rest of us should agree with them.



Actually, I disagree with your assessment.  Homosexuality can be both a choice AND mental disorder.  Mental disorders are not confined to genetics.

There IS something wrong (a disorder) with people who are sexually attracted to persons of the same gender.  It defies nature.  If the choice itself is the disorder/the disorder leads to the choice, then the argument is valid.

Most psychological disorders, as a matter of fact, in the end require a choice.  It is the action that = the choice, regardless the motivation.


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## glockmail (Dec 15, 2006)

Joz said:


> I see I should have never posted the picture of that gun!  But don't you think that's a bit sexist?
> 
> I'm sorry to disappoint you but I am a 5'4, greeneyed, redheaded woman.



Actually I wasn't thinking of the gun, I just visualize a marraige ceremony performed by a man. Probably my Catholic point of view more than sexist (although I am staunchly both!).

And I am certaintly not disappointed by my current visual of a 5'4, greeneyed, redhead! :kiss2:


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## glockmail (Dec 15, 2006)

Kagom said:


> Completely off-topic: Red hair is sexy.


 Well, we agree on that anyway (as a red myself).


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## glockmail (Dec 15, 2006)

MissileMan said:


> There was a complaint that the APA removed homosexuality from it's list of mental disorders.  This implies a belief that homosexuality IS a mental disorder.  I think it's really dishonest to try to argue both mental disorder AND choice...people don't choose to have a mental disorder.
> .....



People choose to drink and become alcoholics, and the APA classifies that as a mental disorder, doesn't it?


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## MissileMan (Dec 15, 2006)

glockmail said:


> People choose to drink and become alcoholics, and the APA classifies that as a mental disorder, doesn't it?



They choose to drink...though becoming an alcoholic may be a result for some from drinking, that doesn't mean they chose to become an alcoholic.


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## glockmail (Dec 15, 2006)

MissileMan said:


> They choose to drink...though becoming an alcoholic may be a result for some from drinking, that doesn't mean they chose to become an alcoholic.



They choose to poke it up another man's ass...though becoming a homosexual may be a result for some from buggering, that doesn't mean they chose to become a homosexual.


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## dmp (Dec 15, 2006)

dmp said:


> Sorry - tried to resist, but I have to make my token:
> 
> The child would be better-served to have never been born, than to be born into a homosexual-couple's responsibility.   Poor, POOR kid.



BTW - I put this in the wrong thread.


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## Joz (Dec 15, 2006)

glockmail said:


> Actually I wasn't thinking of the gun, I just visualize a marraige ceremony performed by a man. Probably my Catholic point of view more than sexist (although I am staunchly both!).


See?  You didn't say priest, you said man.  _Priest_ would have been the Catholic upbringing, man is the sexiest.  There are many that request a male officiant.  It's like choosing a male doctor over a female one.  Geez, just how good of a doctor could a woman be???



> And I am certaintly not disappointed by my current visual of a 5'4, greeneyed, redhead! :kiss2:


Ah yes, imagination can be wonderful.  Again I'm sorry to disappoint you.  I've never been a beauty by any stretch of the imagination, but here I am performing a ceremony this past Halloween at the WEBN Haunted House.
What I'm getting at is, that even tho' that may be true, soy has not dwarfed me nor have I been lesbianized.


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## MissileMan (Dec 15, 2006)

GunnyL said:


> Actually, I disagree with your assessment.  Homosexuality can be both a choice AND mental disorder.  Mental disorders are not confined to genetics.
> 
> There IS something wrong (a disorder) with people who are sexually attracted to persons of the same gender.  It defies nature.  If the choice itself is the disorder/the disorder leads to the choice, then the argument is valid.
> 
> Most psychological disorders, as a matter of fact, in the end require a choice.  It is the action that = the choice, regardless the motivation.



I think it's fair to argue that a mental disorder can lead to a choice, but it is totally illogical to argue that a mental disorder IS a choice.


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## KarlMarx (Dec 17, 2006)

I eat soy stuff all the time... if you eat Chinese food on a regular basis you've eaten soy on a regular basis... I don't see myself batting for the other side anytime in the near or distant future.

That's another thing.... if soy makes you gay, then all of Eastern Asia should have a over powering urge to take up interior decorating or hairdressing...

P.S. My grocery store has a lot of soy products, like tofurkey, a soy cheese... frankly, I can't get too excited about some of them. Tofu, on the other hand, is a good alternative to meat if you're on a budget. Soy protein is supposed to be a very good substitute for animal protein and it's cheap. I like chopping up tofu and putting it in chicken soup, or putting it in salads.


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## glockmail (Dec 17, 2006)

Joz said:


> .....
> 
> Ah yes, imagination can be wonderful.  Again I'm sorry to disappoint you.  I've never been a beauty by any stretch of the imagination, but here I am performing a ceremony this past Halloween at the WEBN Haunted House......



I think you're a fine specimen!  Can't have too much black eyeshade!


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## Gunny (Dec 17, 2006)

MissileMan said:


> I think it's fair to argue that a mental disorder can lead to a choice, but it is totally illogical to argue that a mental disorder IS a choice.



I've never really cared nor thought about whether or not homosexuality is a mental disorder.  Upon further review .... it clearly is, and should be defined as such.

I do not see that as conflicting with choice.  Two different pieces to the same puzzle.


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## Kagom (Dec 17, 2006)

GunnyL said:


> I've never really cared nor thought about whether or not homosexuality is a mental disorder.  Upon further review .... it clearly is, and should be defined as such.
> 
> I do not see that as conflicting with choice.  Two different pieces to the same puzzle.


When you have dependable psychologists and psychiatrists who have done enough research back what you say, it might be considered.


----------



## MissileMan (Dec 17, 2006)

GunnyL said:


> I've never really cared nor thought about whether or not homosexuality is a mental disorder.  Upon further review .... it clearly is, and should be defined as such.
> 
> I do not see that as conflicting with choice.  Two different pieces to the same puzzle.



Name any other illness or disorder that anyone with any sense would argue is a choice.


----------



## Gunny (Dec 17, 2006)

Kagom said:


> When you have dependable psychologists and psychiatrists who have done enough research back what you say, it might be considered.



I don't need the three ring circus to overstate the obvious.


----------



## glockmail (Dec 17, 2006)

MissileMan said:


> Name any other illness or disorder that anyone with any sense would argue is a choice.


 Alcoholism.


----------



## Gunny (Dec 17, 2006)

MissileMan said:


> Name any other illness or disorder that anyone with any sense would argue is a choice.



Did you bother to read what I posted?  I'm not arguing that a disorder is a choice.  

If you have a mental disorder, you have nothing BUT a choice:  to carry out the impulse to act in a manner befitting the mental disorder; or, not exhibiting the behavior associated with the disorder.

Choosing the former is pretty self-explanatory ... the disorder led to the choice to exhibit the behavior.

Choosing the latter is equally self-explanatory ... the disorder let to the choice to NOT exhibit the behavior.

Either way, one is contingent on the other.


----------



## Kagom (Dec 17, 2006)

GunnyL said:


> I don't need the three ring circus to overstate the obvious.


Bullshit like you've stated needs evidence and research.


----------



## Gunny (Dec 17, 2006)

Kagom said:


> Bullshit like you've stated needs evidence and research.



Nah .... it's as obvious as daylight.  No more evidence required than that.

Now DO run along and let the adults talk.


----------



## Joz (Dec 17, 2006)

glockmail said:


> I think you're a fine specimen!  Can't have too much black eyeshade!



 

What happened to the kissy lips???


----------



## Kagom (Dec 17, 2006)

GunnyL said:


> Nah .... it's as obvious as daylight.  No more evidence required than that.
> 
> Now DO run along and let the adults talk.


What are you talking about?  It's not obvious as you think or claim.  Empirical evidence and research is needed.


----------



## Gunny (Dec 17, 2006)

Kagom said:


> What are you talking about?  It's not obvious as you think or claim.  Empirical evidence and research is needed.



You think?  Obviously you aren't doing so well at it right now.

Obvious:  Homosexuality is aberrant behavior.  Aberrant behavior cause by what?  The brain putting the body into action to carry out the behavior.  Mental pertains to the brain and disorder the aberrant behavior.  

It couldn't get much simpler.


----------



## MissileMan (Dec 17, 2006)

glockmail said:


> Alcoholism.



You're wrong.  People don't choose to be an alcoholic.


----------



## MissileMan (Dec 17, 2006)

GunnyL said:


> Did you bother to read what I posted?  I'm not arguing that a disorder is a choice.
> 
> If you have a mental disorder, you have nothing BUT a choice:  to carry out the impulse to act in a manner befitting the mental disorder; or, not exhibiting the behavior associated with the disorder.
> 
> ...



So, homosexuality is not a choice?


----------



## Kagom (Dec 17, 2006)

GunnyL said:


> You think?  Obviously you aren't doing so well at it right now.
> 
> Obvious:  Homosexuality is an aberrant behavior.  Aberrant behavior caused by what?  The brain putting the body into action to carry out the behavior.  Mental pertains to the brain and disorder the aberrant behavior.
> 
> It couldn't get much simpler.


But that's YOUR interpretations of homosexuality.  That doesn't make it any more right than mine.


----------



## glockmail (Dec 18, 2006)

Joz said:


> What happened to the kissy lips???


 Couldn't find 'em in our new smilies library, sweet cheeks. How 'bout this:


----------



## glockmail (Dec 18, 2006)

MissileMan said:


> You're wrong.  People don't choose to be an alcoholic.


 Of course they do. All they have to do is take the bottle out of their mouths. No different than drugs, smokes, or obesity. But I wouldn't expect you to understand anything about personal responsibility.


----------



## glockmail (Dec 18, 2006)

Kagom said:


> But that's YOUR interpretations of homosexuality.  That doesn't make it any more right than mine.


 His is the interpretation of the majority, and we have the Bible to back us up: 5000 years of written history. 

Your a good kid, Kagom, but you are so wrong on this issue. I pray for you and those like you. Love the sinner, hate the sin.


----------



## dilloduck (Dec 18, 2006)

glockmail said:


> Of course they do. All they have to do is take the bottle out of their mouths. No different than drugs, smokes, or obesity. But I wouldn't expect you to understand anything about personal responsibility.



Taking the bottle out of thier mouth does not change the fact that they are alcoholics.


----------



## glockmail (Dec 18, 2006)

dilloduck said:


> Taking the bottle out of thier mouth does not change the fact that they are alcoholics.


 True, but it would keep them from getting to be one. No one is born to be an alcoholic, a drug addict, or a smoker, and no one is born gay.


----------



## dilloduck (Dec 18, 2006)

glockmail said:


> True, but it would keep them from getting to be one. No one is born to be an alcoholic, a drug addict, a smoker, or fat, and no one is born gay.



I'm pretty amazed at your determination to deny genetic predisposition.


----------



## glockmail (Dec 18, 2006)

dilloduck said:


> I'm pretty amazed at your determination to deny genetic predisposition.


 I should be cute and point to my signature line here, but you deserve more respect than that.

I'm not saying that one cannot be predisposed to these things, just that the afflicted has a choice not to follow that path. For instance, my mom is fat and my dad's an alky. I'm thin and drink moderately. I have to make conscious decisions about food and drink daily.


----------



## dilloduck (Dec 18, 2006)

glockmail said:


> I should be cute and point to my signature line here, but you deserve more respect than that.
> 
> I'm not saying that one cannot be predisposed to these things, just that the afflicted has a choice not to follow that path. For instance, my mom is fat and my dad's an alky. I'm thin and drink moderately. I have to make conscious decisions about food and drink daily.



Predispostion isn't a guarantee the one will be afflicted with the condition but it can certainly be proven that there is an influence. Ulitmately the debate over the nature-nurture factors in homosexuality is moot.

The question should be that IF homosexuality is a physical predisposition, should homosexual behavior be condoned as an inevitable result of 'mother nature' or behavor that should be treated if possible or condemed if not.


----------



## glockmail (Dec 18, 2006)

dilloduck said:


> Predispostion isn't a guarantee the one will be afflicted with the condition but it can certainly be proven that there is an influence. Ulitmately the debate over the nature-nurture factors in homosexuality is moot.
> 
> The question should be that IF homosexuality is a physical predisposition, should homosexual behavior be condoned as an inevitable result of 'mother nature' or behavor that should be treated if possible or condemed if not.


  I think you know my answer to that. The condition is detrimental to the patient and society so it should be treated aggressively.


----------



## dilloduck (Dec 18, 2006)

glockmail said:


> I think you know my answer to that. The condition is detrimental to the patient and society so it should be treated aggressively.



Just trying to frame the discussion a bit to where it might be a little more productive than argumentative.


----------



## Joz (Dec 18, 2006)

glockmail said:


> Couldn't find 'em in our new smilies library, sweet cheeks. How 'bout this:


That's fine.  
But I was lookin' to give YOU the KISS!


----------



## glockmail (Dec 18, 2006)

Joz said:


> That's fine.
> But I was lookin' to give YOU the KISS!








 Yowser!


----------



## 90K (Dec 18, 2006)

glockmail said:


> Yowser!



Player!


----------



## Kagom (Dec 18, 2006)

glockmail said:


> His is the interpretation of the majority, and we have the Bible to back us up: 5000 years of written history.
> 
> Your a good kid, Kagom, but you are so wrong on this issue. I pray for you and those like you. Love the sinner, hate the sin.


The majority doesn't claim it's a mental disorder.  And the Bible is fallible.


----------



## glockmail (Dec 18, 2006)

Kagom said:


> [1]The majority doesn't claim it's a mental disorder.  [2]And the Bible is fallible.



1. The majority claims it is a sin, unnatural, and a bad choice.

2. Then you should be able to prove that: http://www.usmessageboard.com/forums/showpost.php?p=514467&postcount=361


----------



## jillian (Dec 18, 2006)

glockmail said:


> 1. The majority claims it is a sin, unnatural, and a bad choice.
> 
> 2. Then you should be able to prove that: http://www.usmessageboard.com/forums/showpost.php?p=514467&postcount=361



The majority claims it's sin?

Link please.


----------



## glockmail (Dec 18, 2006)

jillian said:


> The majority claims it's sin?
> 
> Link please.


 Link this, sis. The vast majority of Americans have religious convictions, which means that they know that crap is a sin. Dig?


----------



## MissileMan (Dec 18, 2006)

glockmail said:


> Of course they do. All they have to do is take the bottle out of their mouths. No different than drugs, smokes, or obesity. But I wouldn't expect you to understand anything about personal responsibility.



If they can just not drink, then they aren't alcoholics.  But I wouldn't expect you to understand anything.


----------



## MissileMan (Dec 18, 2006)

glockmail said:


> Of course they do. All they have to do is take the bottle out of their mouths. No different than drugs, smokes, or obesity. But I wouldn't expect you to understand anything about personal responsibility.



Perhaps you can explain your last comment, particularly in light of my arguing that a criminal is responsible for his actions and you wanting to place part of the blame on the victim.


----------



## glockmail (Dec 18, 2006)

MissileMan said:


> Perhaps you can explain your last comment, particularly in light of my arguing that a criminal is responsible for his actions and you wanting to place part of the blame on the victim.


 So the scotch is to blame for the alky?


----------



## MissileMan (Dec 18, 2006)

glockmail said:


> So the scotch is to blame for the alky?



*Points to your signature line*


----------



## Gunny (Dec 19, 2006)

MissileMan said:


> So, homosexuality is not a choice?



It's a choice.  I didn't say otherwise.


----------



## Gunny (Dec 19, 2006)

Kagom said:


> But that's YOUR interpretations of homosexuality.  That doesn't make it any more right than mine.



That is th eopinion of the vast majority who do not purposefully blind themselves to the difference between normal and abnormal behavior.  We've been all over this, and I'v eshot you down in every instance from every angle.  

So yeah, it DOES make me right and you wrong.


----------



## glockmail (Dec 20, 2006)

MissileMan said:


> *Points to your signature line*


 Just trying to follow your train of logic.


----------



## Kagom (Dec 20, 2006)

GunnyL said:


> That is th eopinion of the vast majority who do not purposefully blind themselves to the difference between normal and abnormal behavior.  We've been all over this, and I'v eshot you down in every instance from every angle.
> 
> So yeah, it DOES make me right and you wrong.


You've not shot me down at all over this issue, unless you care to give me links to remind me.  So far I only recall you shooting me down over Iran and a few other issues regarding the Middle East.


----------



## glockmail (Dec 20, 2006)

Like shootin' fish in a barrel....


----------



## MissileMan (Dec 20, 2006)

GunnyL said:


> It's a choice.  I didn't say otherwise.



So, it's no longer a mental disorder?


----------



## glockmail (Dec 20, 2006)

MissileMan said:


> So, it's no longer a mental disorder?


 Post 59.


----------



## MissileMan (Dec 20, 2006)

glockmail said:


> Post 59.



Post 60


----------



## glockmail (Dec 20, 2006)

MissileMan said:


> Post 60


It didn't makes sense then either. Try again.


----------



## MissileMan (Dec 20, 2006)

glockmail said:


> It didn't makes sense then either. Try again.



The consequences of a choice aren't a choice.  For example, if a person CHOOSES to become a nurse and contracts AIDS as a result of treating an infected person, the nurse did not CHOOSE to get AIDS.


----------



## glockmail (Dec 20, 2006)

MissileMan said:


> The consequences of a choice aren't a choice.  For example, if a person CHOOSES to become a nurse and contracts AIDS as a result of treating an infected person, the nurse did not CHOOSE to get AIDS.


 That's not a valid comparison to homosexuality or alcoholism. The gay can always choose to go straight and the drunk can always choose to go sober: they can cure themselves by being personally responsible.


----------



## MissileMan (Dec 20, 2006)

glockmail said:


> That's not a valid comparison to homosexuality or alcoholism. The gay can always choose to go straight and the drunk can always choose to go sober: they can cure themselves by being personally responsible.



That is only true if homosexuality and alcoholism are mental disorders that a person chooses to have, and since they are not, your post is false.  Next thing ya know, you'll be arguing that a mentally retarded person is choosing to be stupid.  After all, all they have to do is choose to be smart, right?


----------



## Gunny (Dec 20, 2006)

Kagom said:


> You've not shot me down at all over this issue, unless you care to give me links to remind me.  So far I only recall you shooting me down over Iran and a few other issues regarding the Middle East.



I have a much better plan .... you can go search the threads yourself.  It isn't as if I have some special access to them you don't.  

I hardly expected you to agree that you got shot down, but in a smoking spiral you have gone each and every time.  You're wrong, simple as that.  But for you to agree with me, you'd have to quit being gay.  So you'll agree with you, and your lame, baseless arguments.


----------



## Gunny (Dec 20, 2006)

MissileMan said:


> So, it's no longer a mental disorder?



You aren't going to win any points trying to play little games.  I explained the answer to your question, in detail.

You can call it whatever you want.  Social disorder, mental disorder, being dropped on your head as a baby disorder -- means nothing to me.  It's aberrant behavior that requires a conscious effort to engage in.   That's a choice.  If a mental disorder leads to it, fine.  If watching too many Liberace reruns leads to it, fine.  

My argument is, and always has been that homosexuality is abnormal behavior, and I could give a rat's ass WHAT the cause is.


----------



## Gunny (Dec 20, 2006)

MissileMan said:


> That is only true if homosexuality and alcoholism are mental disorders that a person chooses to have, and since they are not, your post is false.  Next thing ya know, you'll be arguing that a mentally retarded person is choosing to be stupid.  After all, all they have to do is choose to be smart, right?



Resorting to fallacious arguments now?  Your use of the term "mental disorder" is nothing but.

Nothing says the disorder exists until the behavior is exhibited.  The behavior is then diagnosed as a disorder.  Both are in fact bahvioral disorders.  Since behavior, whether conscious or unconscious begins in the brain ...."mental disorder."

Stop trying to use "mental disorder" in the place of "genetic."


----------



## MissileMan (Dec 20, 2006)

GunnyL said:


> You aren't going to win any points trying to play little games.  I explained the answer to your question, in detail.
> 
> You can call it whatever you want.  Social disorder, mental disorder, being dropped on your head as a baby disorder -- means nothing to me.  It's aberrant behavior that requires a conscious effort to engage in.   That's a choice.  If a mental disorder leads to it, fine.  If watching too many Liberace reruns leads to it, fine.
> 
> My argument is, and always has been that homosexuality is abnormal behavior, and I could give a rat's ass WHAT the cause is.



Not playing games, just found it amusing that you were convinced that homosexuality is a mental disorder until it deprived you of your "choice" argument.


----------



## Gunny (Dec 20, 2006)

MissileMan said:


> Not playing games, just found it amusing that you were convinced that homosexuality is a mental disorder until it deprived you of your "choice" argument.



Guess you were amusing yourself by something that isn't there then.  Delusion IS a "mental disorder."

I've repeatedly shown where it can be both, and you have repeatedly ignored it and stuck to the same fallacious argument.


----------



## MissileMan (Dec 20, 2006)

GunnyL said:


> Resorting to fallacious arguments now?  Your use of the term "mental disorder" is nothing but.
> 
> Nothing says the disorder exists until the behavior is exhibited.  The behavior is then diagnosed as a disorder.  Both are in fact bahvioral disorders.  Since behavior, whether conscious or unconscious begins in the brain ...."mental disorder."
> 
> Stop trying to use "mental disorder" in the place of "genetic."



And you're confusing disorder with symptom.  A mental disorder LEADS to abnormal behavior/thought.  The abnormal behavior/thought are symptoms of the disorder, not the disorder itself.


----------



## MissileMan (Dec 20, 2006)

GunnyL said:


> Guess you were amusing yourself by something that isn't there then.  Delusion IS a "mental disorder."
> 
> I've repeatedly shown where it can be both, and you have repeatedly ignored it and stuck to the same fallacious argument.



You denied that you were calling a disorder a choice, now you've repeatedly shown it can be?


----------



## Yurt (Dec 20, 2006)

Soy what!

Drank soy most of my life, milk a few times, now mostly soy, no plugged nose problems.

Eat ice cream, no worries, but milk, seems to always get me.  Soy, I use soy milk.


----------



## glockmail (Dec 21, 2006)

MissileMan said:


> That is only true if homosexuality and alcoholism are mental disorders that a person chooses to have, and since they are not, your post is false.  Next thing ya know, you'll be arguing that a mentally retarded person is choosing to be stupid.  After all, all they have to do is choose to be smart, right?


 The retard has no choice but to be stupid. The homo and the alky can choose to be straight and sober.


----------



## 90K (Dec 21, 2006)

glockmail said:


> The retard has no choice but to be stupid. The homo and the alky can choose to be straight and sober.



is there a 12 step program for homosexuals? I wonder how much denial would be in those meetings?
Step one:
We admitted that we were powerless over or dependencies and that our life had become unmanageable


----------



## glockmail (Dec 21, 2006)

90K said:


> is there a 12 step program for homosexuals? I wonder how much denial would be in those meetings?
> Step one:
> We admitted that we were powerless over or dependencies and that our life had become unmanageable



Or: we admit that were just a bunch of real horney guys with small dicks that can't find women as perverted as we are.


----------



## 90K (Dec 21, 2006)

glockmail said:


> Or: we admit that were just a bunch of real horney guys with small dicks that can't find women as perverted as we are.


----------



## MissileMan (Dec 21, 2006)

glockmail said:


> The retard has no choice but to be stupid. The homo and the alky can choose to be straight and sober.



You have yet to show that homosexuality and alcoholism are disorders that a person chooses to have.  For one thing, even after getting sober and not drinking an alcoholic is still an alcoholic.


----------



## 90K (Dec 21, 2006)

MissileMan said:


> For one thing, even after getting sober and not drinking an alcoholic is still an alcoholic.


That is unless that never unplug the jug then they are in recovery or recovered.  
1 Nov 1989.


----------



## Kagom (Dec 22, 2006)

GunnyL said:


> I have a much better plan .... you can go search the threads yourself.  It isn't as if I have some special access to them you don't.
> 
> I hardly expected you to agree that you got shot down, but in a smoking spiral you have gone each and every time.  You're wrong, simple as that.  But for you to agree with me, you'd have to quit being gay.  So you'll agree with you, and your lame, baseless arguments.


You can make the claims you want.  You have not shot me down.


----------



## Kagom (Dec 22, 2006)

glockmail said:


> Or: we admit that were just a bunch of real horney guys with small dicks that can't find women as perverted as we are.


Now I'm the one tempted to say something.  But I'll be good :x


----------



## Gunny (Dec 23, 2006)

Kagom said:


> You can make the claims you want.  You have not shot me down.



Oh, good comeback.  However can I handle such rebuff?

Was your statement true, I suspect a half dozen links to the threads would be posted in response.  Instead, I get the _el lame-o_ answer of the year.


----------



## Gunny (Dec 23, 2006)

MissileMan said:


> You denied that you were calling a disorder a choice, now you've repeatedly shown it can be?



I haven't repeatedly called a disorder a choice.  I've repeatedly explained exactly what I DO think; which, you have repeatedly ignored, sticking to parrotting this same accusation.

Let's get past your little game of semantics and cut to the chase.  I don't care if it's a choice.  I don't care if they prove conclusively that homosexuality is genetic in the next 10 minutes.

It's abnormal behavior, and should not be treated as anything other than what it is, and all of these little games of semantics that attempt to deflect from just that are just so much BS.


----------



## MissileMan (Dec 23, 2006)

GunnyL said:


> *It's abnormal behavior*, and should not be treated as anything other than what it is, and all of these little games of semantics that attempt to deflect from just that are just so much BS.



I've never claimed otherwise.  And for the record, pointing out obvious contradictions isn't playing "semantics" and you know it.  The BS is trying to conceal your contradictions with a mesh of feigned indignation.


----------



## Gunny (Dec 24, 2006)

MissileMan said:


> I've never claimed otherwise.  And for the record, pointing out obvious contradictions isn't playing "semantics" and you know it.  The BS is trying to conceal your contradictions with a mesh of feigned indignation.



There is no obvious contradiction, other than the one you have contrived and insist on perpetuating.  Just another failed attempt at getting in the back door what you can't get through the front.

There's no indignation, feigned or otherwise.  Perhaps disappointment since I have come to expect better arguments from you than the one you are trying to make now.


----------



## MissileMan (Dec 24, 2006)

GunnyL said:


> There is no obvious contradiction, other than the one you have contrived and insist on perpetuating.  Just another failed attempt at getting in the back door what you can't get through the front.
> 
> There's no indignation, feigned or otherwise.  Perhaps disappointment since I have come to expect better arguments from you than the one you are trying to make now.



More meaningless drivel to hide your inability to reconcile your choice/disorder contradictions.  Give it up already!


----------



## Gunny (Dec 24, 2006)

MissileMan said:


> More meaningless drivel to hide your inability to reconcile your choice/disorder contradictions.  Give it up already!



Okay.  That was my attempt to be reasonable.

Frankly, I see no reason to give up a stance against a fallacious argument.  There's no contradiction, as I have REPEATEDLY pointed out, and otherwise explained at a level that even a two-years-old can comprehend.

Your stance is intellectually dishonest, and is nothing more than a poor man's attempt to deflect from the the topic of homosexuality by using labels to suit yourself, and that have no impact on the reality of the topic.


----------



## MissileMan (Dec 24, 2006)

GunnyL said:


> Okay.  That was my attempt to be reasonable.
> 
> Frankly, I see no reason to give up a stance against a fallacious argument.  There's no contradiction, as I have REPEATEDLY pointed out, and otherwise explained at a level that even a two-years-old can comprehend.
> 
> Your stance is intellectually dishonest, and is nothing more than a poor man's attempt to deflect from the the topic of homosexuality by using labels to suit yourself, and that have no impact on the reality of the topic.



Bullshit!  You were perfectly willing to acknowledge that homosexuality is a mental disorder until pressed to then also admit, that if it's a mental disorder, then it can't also be a choice.  You've done your best job of ducking and dodging that admission, to include even saying that you don't care if it's genetic, a mental disorder, or a choice.  If you don't care, then quit trying to argue that it's a choice, especially in light of your expressed opinion that it's a mental disorder.

BTW, your continued accusations of intellectual dishonesty could carry even an ounce of weight if you could demonstrate exactly how my arguments are anything other than logical and derived from common sense.


----------



## Gunny (Dec 24, 2006)

MissileMan said:


> Bullshit!  You were perfectly willing to acknowledge that homosexuality is a mental disorder until pressed to then also admit, that if it's a mental disorder, then it can't also be a choice.  You've done your best job of ducking and dodging that admission, to include even saying that you don't care if it's genetic, a mental disorder, or a choice.  If you don't care, then quit trying to argue that it's a choice, especially in light of your expressed opinion that it's a mental disorder.
> 
> BTW, your continued accusations of intellectual dishonesty could carry even an ounce of weight if you could demonstrate exactly how my arguments are anything other than logical and derived from common sense.



There's no bullshit.  First, until participating in this thread, I had no idea homosexuality was classified as a mental disorder.  You keep attemtping to present a mental disorder and choice as mutually exclusive, when in fact, they are both symptoms  of the larger problem.

One could argue that any behavior not accepted as normal was the result of a mental disorder, since disorder translates into abnormality.  Without the disorder, there is no aberrant choice.  Without the aberrant choice, there is no evidence to prove the disorder.

About as simple as it gets.


----------



## MissileMan (Dec 24, 2006)

GunnyL said:


> There's no bullshit.  First, until participating in this thread, I had no idea homosexuality was classified as a mental disorder.  You keep attemtping to present a mental disorder and choice as mutually exclusive, when in fact, *they are both symptoms  of the larger problem*.
> 
> One could argue that any behavior not accepted as normal was the result of a mental disorder, since disorder translates into abnormality.  Without the disorder, there is no aberrant choice.  Without the aberrant choice, there is no evidence to prove the disorder.
> 
> About as simple as it gets.



It used to be classified as a mental disorder but is no longer considered one by the APA.  I'm saying a disorder can lead to a choice, but a disorder isn't a choice.  In that regard, yes I am arguing they are exclusive.  An abstinant homosexual is STILL a homosexual.  An abstinant alcoholic is STILL an alcoholic.  The disorder isn't a symptom, it's a cause.  The behavior that the disorder leads to is the symptom.


----------



## Gunny (Dec 25, 2006)

MissileMan said:


> It used to be classified as a mental disorder but is no longer considered one by the APA.  I'm saying a disorder can lead to a choice, but a disorder isn't a choice.  In that regard, yes I am arguing they are exclusive.  An abstinant homosexual is STILL a homosexual.  An abstinant alcoholic is STILL an alcoholic.  The disorder isn't a symptom, it's a cause.  The behavior that the disorder leads to is the symptom.



But how can anyone be sure an abstinent homosexual or alcoholic actually is what he claims if he/she never exhibits the behavior which the evidence that proves such a disorder?

Theoretically, I will agree that they can be mutually exclusive, but not practically.  And I will use YOU as an example.

You say you don't beleive in God, and the biggest reason I've ever seen given by you is that there is no evidence that proves God exists.  Yet, you will accept that a person who claims to have a disorder indeed has it, with no evidence to support the claim.

I am not saying behavior leads to homosexuality ... I am saying behavior is the evidence that proves the disorder indeed exists.

So, practically, for the purposes of scientific evidence, I consider the disorder and the evidence that proves the disorder mutually inclusive.


----------



## MissileMan (Dec 25, 2006)

GunnyL said:


> But how can anyone be sure an abstinent homosexual or alcoholic actually is what he claims if he/she never exhibits the behavior which the evidence that proves such a disorder?
> 
> Theoretically, I will agree that they can be mutually exclusive, but not practically.  And I will use YOU as an example.
> 
> ...



I'm not sure what you're arguing here.  If someone claims that they are sexually attracted to the same sex and not the opposite sex, I don't have to see them carry through with their attraction to believe they're a homosexual.  The same would go for attendees of an AA meeting...if they admit they're alcoholics, what would be the purpose for doubting them?


----------



## Gunny (Dec 25, 2006)

MissileMan said:


> I'm not sure what you're arguing here.  If someone claims that they are sexually attracted to the same sex and not the opposite sex, I don't have to see them carry through with their attraction to believe they're a homosexual.  The same would go for attendees of an AA meeting...if they admit they're alcoholics, what would be the purpose for doubting them?



No argument.  Just find it curious you will accept faith as fact from a homosexual or alcoholic, but demand evidence to prove the existence of God.


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## MissileMan (Dec 25, 2006)

GunnyL said:


> No argument.  Just find it curious you will accept faith as fact from a homosexual or alcoholic, but demand evidence to prove the existence of God.



If and when God introduces himself to me, I'll take his word for it too.


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## Gunny (Dec 25, 2006)

MissileMan said:


> If and when God introduces himself to me, I'll take his word for it too.




I see.


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## LOki (Dec 26, 2006)

MissileMan said:


> If and when God introduces himself to me, I'll take his word for it too.


Hi.


(Way too easy!  )


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## Gunny (Dec 26, 2006)

LOki said:


> Hi.
> 
> 
> (Way too easy!  )



The trickster god of Norse mythology.  Based on your mythological reputation  , I will have to take your assertion with a grain of salt.


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## glockmail (Jan 11, 2007)

Looks like te Taliban have been eating too much soy.  [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBMbBMaPrRc&mode=related&search=[/ame]


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## supermarine (Feb 28, 2007)

dmp said:


> Sorry - tried to resist, but I have to make my token:
> 
> The child would be better-served to have never been born, than to be born into a homosexual-couple's responsibility.   Poor, POOR kid.



That is a very ignorant statement. It's also contradictory to statements of being against abortion. I would rather have a kid grow up with homosexual parents than grow up in a ragged foster home with their lives being flushed down the drain.

And what makes your view so right? The bible? Jesus Christ? It is also Jesus Christ who said to TURN THE OTHER CHEEK. But  war hawks like you seem to shove that quote out of the way.


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## gabosaurus (Feb 28, 2007)

Homosexuality is genetic. End of story.


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## Kagom (Feb 28, 2007)

gabosaurus said:


> Homosexuality is genetic. End of story.



While I share that belief, prove it.


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## gabosaurus (Feb 28, 2007)

Read the scientific journals. They are closing in on isolating and classifying the genes.
Which is much better proof than a bunch of whacko fundies quoting a bunch of other whacko fundies as proof.


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## Kagom (Feb 28, 2007)

gabosaurus said:


> Read the scientific journals. They are closing in on isolating and classifying the genes.
> Which is much better proof than a bunch of whacko fundies quoting a bunch of other whacko fundies as proof.


Provide links.  Which scientific studies you talking about?  Etc.


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