# Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground



## rylah (Jan 28, 2020)

Much speculation and claims in the air by various news sites.
I don't want to do that, let's discuss it when we see what it actually says.

PM Netanyahu and opposition leader Gantz, went to Washington to meet Pres.Trump.
The PA leadership refused the invitation

On the ground:

Hamas *ordered* all business closed by 13:00 to generate to generate wider demonstrations.
Following *assessment* meetings between Defense minister Bennet and Gen. Cochavi,
IDF increased presence in several points including Jordan valley and Judea
in preparation for any possible escalations.

*Today 19:00 Israel time will be presented the Trump Deal.
That's in about 4 hours now.*


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## ILOVEISRAEL (Jan 28, 2020)

rylah said:


> Much speculation and claims in the air by various news sites.
> I don't want to do that, let's discuss it when we see what it actually says.
> 
> PM Netanyahu and opposition leader Gantz, went to Washington to meet Pres.Trump.
> ...



Abbas even refused his phone call


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## Sunni Man (Jan 28, 2020)

Palestinians know from previous experience, that making a deal with Israel'i jews is the same as making a deal with the devil.  ..


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## rylah (Jan 28, 2020)

Sunni Man said:


> Palestinians know from previous experience, that making a deal with Israel'i jews is the same as making a deal with the devil.  ..



There wasn't as much Muslims living in this land as today under Jewish rule, ever in history.
Never under Arab-Muslim rule was the land as prosperous for all involved as it is today.


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## Lipush (Jan 28, 2020)

Waiting.


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## rylah (Jan 28, 2020)

*LIVE: Statement by US President Donald Trump and presentation of the "Deal of the Century"*

**

*
*


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## Biff_Poindexter (Jan 28, 2020)

Trump proposes Palestinian state with capital in East Jerusalem

  Obviously when Obama or those evil Jew hating libs proposed statehood for Palestine -- it was one of the most evil concepts known to man and should be opposed at all costs.....but.....

*"U.S. President Donald Trump on Tuesday proposed creation of a Palestinian state with a capital in East Jerusalem, dependent on Palestinians taking steps to become self-governing, in an attempt to achieve a peace breakthrough in their decades of conflict with Israel."*

Maybe Trump can get this done since he and Bibi are so close -- maybe Bibi will totally ignore his previous stances on statehood for Palestine if Trump tells him to..

*The U.S. plan represented the most dramatic and detailed attempt to break the historic deadlock between Israel and the Palestinians in several years, the result of a three-year effort by Trump senior advisers Jared Kushner and Avi Berkowitz and former adviser Jason Greenblatt. Trump has endorsed a proposed map outlining the two states, the officials said. The Palestinian state would be double the size of land that Palestinians currently control and would be connected by roads, bridges and tunnels, the official said. *-- wow!! Palestine will be twice the size it currently is?? Who does Trump think he is? Some radical muslim cleric??

Hopefully they don't set unrealistic hurdles and demands for Palestinians to reach in order for the deal to be done and hopefully the hardliners in Israel don't believe they are able to fully dictate all terms of the agreement -- if so, then this deal proposal will be about as productive as that North Korea non-deal...I hope it all works out, but I don't know if Trump's evangelical base will be too happy about it -- the whole Armageddon thing is sort of contingent on peace in the Middle East not happening...I mean, those end of the world scenarios are kinda like their jam


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## Billy_Kinetta (Jan 28, 2020)

Netanyahu seems happier than he has in years. 

See what the other side does.


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## RoshawnMarkwees (Jan 28, 2020)

With a big barbed wire fence around it and guard observation towers.


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## Lipush (Jan 28, 2020)

Billy_Kinetta said:


> Netanyahu seems happier than he has in years.
> 
> See what the other side does.



Aha.


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## Biff_Poindexter (Jan 28, 2020)

RoshawnMarkwees said:


> With a big barbed wire fence around it and guard observation towers.


Another fence/wall that we will be paying for too....

Since part of this deal is us sending over 50 billion to Palestine....sending 50 billion to terrorists?? why?? for some peace deal....how unamerican!!!

Remember when Trumpers were so triggered by Obama sending not even 1% of that amount to Iran for AN ACTUAL PEACE DEAL THAT WAS WORKING??

Now...I hope folks can put their partisan hackery to the side and get a 2-state solution done....hope people would have done this sooner -- back when it was a dem trying to get a 2-state solution done instead of demonizing it...

and you will find more dems on board with Trump getting a real 2-state solution done as long as it is not a repeat of the North Korea debacle...


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## Ame®icano (Jan 28, 2020)

Biff_Poindexter said:


> Trump proposes Palestinian state with capital in East Jerusalem
> 
> Obviously when Obama or those evil Jew hating libs proposed statehood for Palestine -- it was one of the most evil concepts known to man and should be opposed at all costs.....but.....
> 
> ...



There were peace talks between Palestinians and Israel during Barry's administration.

Only thing, the deal he was pushing wasn't supported by neither side, especially by Israel, because of settlements and Jerusalem, and probably because Barry worked against Bibi's reelection.


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## Shusha (Jan 28, 2020)

Well this seems reasonable.  I wonder what Abbas will say.


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## Augustine_ (Jan 28, 2020)

rylah said:


> Much speculation and claims in the air by various news sites.
> I don't want to do that, let's discuss it when we see what it actually says.
> 
> PM Netanyahu and opposition leader Gantz, went to Washington to meet Pres.Trump.
> ...


Details about the deal are completely irrelevant as it will never be agreed to.  It's like Dungeons and Dragons.  A make-believe scenario that Jared and a crew of other people who don't want peace came up with to please daddy Trump and his criminal friend Bibi.


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## Shusha (Jan 28, 2020)

Here is the Peace to Prosperity Plan if any one cares to read all 181 pages.


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## toomuchtime_ (Jan 28, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Well this seems reasonable.  I wonder what Abbas will say.


lol  He'll say, no.  Have you looked at the conditions for US recognition of a Palestinian state?  Essentially they are that the Palestinians have to stop being Palestinians and become civilized, responsible people.


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## toomuchtime_ (Jan 28, 2020)

Augustine_ said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Much speculation and claims in the air by various news sites.
> ...


Hardly irrelevant.  It gives Israel a US green light to annex all of the Jordan valley, all of its settlements and recognizes all of Jerusalem as part of sovereign Israel.  It is likely the US and Israel will sign a new treaty including all the annexations and recognitions so that it will be impossible for a future president to rescind them.  The Knesset will likely vote on the annexations next week.


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## Shusha (Jan 28, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Well this seems reasonable.  I wonder what Abbas will say.
> ...



Yep.  All the usual excuses for Palestinian rejection are there.  

"Wait, you mean we have to give up our rockets?!  No way, no can do."
"We have to stop paying terrorists to murder Jews?!  Nuh huh."
"You want us to develop tourism?!  That's outrageous!"


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## justoffal (Jan 28, 2020)

Biff_Poindexter said:


> Trump proposes Palestinian state with capital in East Jerusalem
> 
> Obviously when Obama or those evil Jew hating libs proposed statehood for Palestine -- it was one of the most evil concepts known to man and should be opposed at all costs.....but.....
> 
> ...



your knowledge of Middle Eastern issues is limited to a few paragraphs of tongue and cheek jargon.  Nobody wants a Palestinian State more than the Israelis do what they don't want is Hamas living next door to them raining missiles down on them every time they go to sleep.

Why don't you try staying in an Israeli hotel...
When and Iraqi missile knocks on the door and spoils your day maybe your political views will subside a bit and give away two more pragmatic ones.

Jo


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## Tommy Tainant (Jan 28, 2020)

The deal of the century has certainly brought people together. Fatah and Hamas were in meetings whilst trump was lauding his impeachment deflection .


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## EvilCat Breath (Jan 28, 2020)

Nothing is going to happen. The palestinians will never agree to anything that permits the existence of a Jewish state.


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## Shusha (Jan 28, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


> It gives Israel a US green light to annex all of the Jordan valley, all of its settlements and recognizes all of Jerusalem as part of sovereign Israel.  It is likely the US and Israel will sign a new treaty including all the annexations and recognitions so that it will be impossible for a future president to rescind them.  The Knesset will likely vote on the annexations next week.



Yep.  I'm still reading (nearly half way!) but...  The Plan is mainly carrots for the Palestinians.  However, it seems to me that the assumptions about what Israel needs in an agreement are not especially negotiable and will be implemented with or without Palestinian approval.  So for the Palestinians its really a matter if they want to scoop up the carrots.


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## Shusha (Jan 28, 2020)

The Plan also gives some significant carrots to Jordan and Egypt.  Which is smart, imo.


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## Hollie (Jan 28, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Well this seems reasonable.  I wonder what Abbas will say.
> ...


How dare you!

Hamas is the second richest terrorist organization in the world. 

Mahmoud has a $50million dollar presidential jet. They're going to give that up?


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## Aletheia4u (Jan 28, 2020)




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## Billy_Kinetta (Jan 28, 2020)

Tipsycatlover said:


> Nothing is going to happen. The palestinians will never agree to anything that permits the existence of a Jewish state.



Trump indicated that this is their last chance.  I suspect he has a contingency plan.


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## Aletheia4u (Jan 28, 2020)

It was the leaders of the Palestinians people, not the Palestinians people, that has been causing problems for ages. Like how the Globalist are trying their best to create racial tension over here.


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## EvilCat Breath (Jan 28, 2020)

Destruction of the Jewish state is in the Palestinian constitution.


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## ILOVEISRAEL (Jan 28, 2020)

Sunni Man said:


> Palestinians know from previous experience, that making a deal with Israel'i jews is the same as making a deal with the devil.  ..




Is that why Egypt and Jordan were able to broker a Peace Treaty with Israel? The above is a typical ignorant Muslim response.


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## Biff_Poindexter (Jan 28, 2020)

justoffal said:


> Biff_Poindexter said:
> 
> 
> > Trump proposes Palestinian state with capital in East Jerusalem
> ...


Why would an Iraqi missile be knocking at Israel's door??

Didn't Trump beat Iraq or something already

I know more about Israel than you think --- I know even more about the utter hypocrisy of dic suckers like you


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## Sunni Man (Jan 28, 2020)

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> Is that why Egypt and Jordan were able to broker a Peace Treaty with Israel?


The U.S. bribed the dictators of both Egypt and Jordan with tens of millions of dollars in financial aid and weapons to play nice with Israel. 

The people of both countries hate Israel with a passion.  ...


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## ILOVEISRAEL (Jan 28, 2020)

Trump's Middle East peace plan calls for two states, with Palestinian capital in east Jerusalem

   They got their Capital in E. Jerusalem.   What else do they want?    I KNOW ! 



PA officials: Jews have ‘no right to pray’ at Western Wall

Muslims chant about killing Jews outside Jerusalem’s Temple Mount


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## ILOVEISRAEL (Jan 28, 2020)

Sunni Man said:


> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> > Is that why Egypt and Jordan were able to broker a Peace Treaty with Israel?
> ...




   So you admit the Arabs initiated the 67 War and  had to be BRIBED to leave Israel alone

   THANK YOU


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## toomuchtime_ (Jan 28, 2020)

Sunni Man said:


> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> > Is that why Egypt and Jordan were able to broker a Peace Treaty with Israel?
> ...





ILOVEISRAEL said:


> Trump's Middle East peace plan calls for two states, with Palestinian capital in east Jerusalem
> 
> They got their Capital in E. Jerusalem.   What else do they want?    I KNOW !
> 
> ...


The capital would be outside the barrier, technically in east Jerusalem but not in practical terms.


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## ILOVEISRAEL (Jan 28, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > ILOVEISRAEL said:
> ...




On the one hand, Trump said Jerusalem will remain Israel’s “undivided capital,” stressing the word “undivided.” But he also said the capital of the Palestinian state would be “in eastern Jerusalem” which appears to indicate the city will be divided between the two states after all.

 Get The Times of Israel's Daily Edition by email and never miss our top stories   Free Sign Up 

The actual plan tries to reconcile those two statements. It says the Jerusalem section of the security barrier Israel constructed during the Second Intifada to stop rampant Palestinian terror attacks will become the border between the two states.

That means the Palestinian capital will be only in the few East Jerusalem neighborhoods that are within the city’s municipal boundaries but outside the security barrier. 

  Maybe if by some miracle the Palestinians became civilized ( doubt it) those barriers can be taken down


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## Shusha (Jan 28, 2020)

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> What else do they want?




Oh, they'll find some excuse.

They've been offered, AGAIN:

a recognized state
contiguous
a recognized capital of Al Quds in (more or less) E. Jerusalem
direct access to Jordan
rapid transit direct access between WB and Gaza
more territory in Gaza
dedicated temporary ports in Israel and Jordan, while theirs in Gaza is built
temporary airport access in Jordan, while theirs is built
direct access to the Muslim holy shrines
continued status quo of the Temple Mount
ALL the economic and development goodies

So the question is, why wouldn't they take it?


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## TDontTouchMyCigars (Jan 28, 2020)

Well The best thing is that the Balestinians won't agree so we will be able to annex and wont have to establish a muslim state 20 Km of Tel Aviv


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## TDontTouchMyCigars (Jan 28, 2020)

And by the way, Jordan can't break the peace treaty and wont do so.

Ask me why


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## ILOVEISRAEL (Jan 28, 2020)

Shusha said:


> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> > What else do they want?
> ...



Because they won’t have control over JEWISH HOLY SITES! That’s why


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## Hollie (Jan 28, 2020)

Shusha said:


> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> > What else do they want?
> ...



Does anybody see an ability (or willingness) on the part of the Pals to build a workable society?


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## ILOVEISRAEL (Jan 28, 2020)

Hollie said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > ILOVEISRAEL said:
> ...



No.


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## TDontTouchMyCigars (Jan 28, 2020)

Hollie said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > ILOVEISRAEL said:
> ...




The Palestinian leaders are getting so rich while taking advantage on the conflict and abusing their own people.

Arafat, for example, had between 4-11 Billion dollars. 
Write on google: The house of Abu Mazen [ Mahmood Abas ]


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## Skull (Jan 28, 2020)

More details from the White House:

Peace to Prosperity | The White House


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## toomuchtime_ (Jan 28, 2020)

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...


In the plan, Trump specifies exactly what districts will constitute the Arab capital and they all are outside of the barrier.


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## ILOVEISRAEL (Jan 28, 2020)

Jeruthe “Palestinian state.”

The status of Jerusalem can not be unilaterally changed and must be in keeping with UN resolutions and international understandings, he said.

Many of the speakers spoke against US President Donald Trump’s peace plan, the first economic portion of which was discussed Tuesday and Wednesday in Bahrain at a workshop led by Trump’s envoy and son-in-law Jared Kushner.

The PA dismissed the Bahrain workshop and many Palestinians chose not to attend.


Among the most vocal was Majdalani, who referenced the 1947 Resolution 181, which set up Jerusalem as an international entity, even though he similarly spoke of east Jerusalem as the “Palestinian capital.”salem isn’t Israel’s capital, Palestinian official says after Bahrain


   According to " UN Resolutions" he speaks about the Jewish people should have had access to E. Jerusalem but were denied

  According to " UN Resolutions"  Abbas does NOT have the legal authority to declare E. Jerusalem the Capital of " Palestine" and deny the Jewish people their religious rights .


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 28, 2020)

*US Middle East peace plan: Dead on arrival? | DW News*

**


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## toomuchtime_ (Jan 28, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> *US Middle East peace plan: Dead on arrival? | DW News*
> 
> **


lol  Hardly dead on arrival.  It gives Israel a US green light to annex all of the Jordan Valley, all its settlements in Judea and Samaria and it provides US recognition of all of Jerusalem as Israel's capital.  Saying  no will just keep the Palestinians from getting any benefits from the plan without stopping Israel.


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 28, 2020)




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## ILOVEISRAEL (Jan 28, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> *US Middle East peace plan: Dead on arrival? | DW News*
> 
> **



Tell us why it’s “ Dead on Arrival” Are you unhappy because the Palestinians can’t ban the Jewish people from their religious sites?


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## Shusha (Jan 28, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


>



"Palestinians don't need charity, they need liberation."  

So, basically Ali Abunimah's take on it is that anything which provides Israel with security should be an auto-no.  Am I the only one who finds that just a little bit ... well, disturbing?


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## toomuchtime_ (Jan 28, 2020)

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> >
> ...


It's very Palestinian.


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## Shusha (Jan 28, 2020)

Coyote 

Thoughts?  This deal *should* meet your objectives for solving the conflict, no?


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 28, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


What he is saying that if Israel got out of the way the Palestinians would prosper more than they will under this plan.


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## toomuchtime_ (Jan 28, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


Which is just an argument for continuing the conflict since Israel will not be getting out of the way.  The real options for the Palestinians are the plan or nothing.


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## Litwin (Jan 29, 2020)

*Kushner: Trump's plan last chance for a Palestinian state. do you agree with Kushner? *


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## Litwin (Jan 29, 2020)




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## Mac-7 (Jan 29, 2020)

Litwin said:


> *Kushner: Trump's plan last chance for a Palestinian state. do you agree with Kushner? *


The trump peace plan will fail just as all the others have because muslims are bent on Armageddon and will settle for nothing less


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## JWBooth (Jan 29, 2020)

Bantustans in an oppressive apartheid state.


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## toomuchtime_ (Jan 29, 2020)

Litwin said:


> *Kushner: Trump's plan last chance for a Palestinian state. do you agree with Kushner? *


Technically, yes, it is the last chance for at least the foreseeable future, but in practical terms, it is already too late since the Palestinian leadership is fragmented and that will make it impossible for  them to meet Trump's requirements for US recognition of a Palestinian state.  That ship sailed with the second intifada and will never return.


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 29, 2020)

JWBooth said:


> Bantustans in an oppressive apartheid state.


Indeed, the plan is to put the Palestinians in walled off bantustans/prisons/ghettos cut off from the resources they need to survive.


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## BULLDOG (Jan 29, 2020)

Only 4 years? You don't really think anybody will go for that, do you?


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## Litwin (Jan 29, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Litwin said:
> 
> 
> > *Kushner: Trump's plan last chance for a Palestinian state. do you agree with Kushner? *
> ...


"That ship sailed with the second intifada and will never return" ok, and what will happened with Palestinians ? they will not vanishing  in the Jupiter , as wee all know *Israel can not integrate* them all in Jewish state


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## CrusaderFrank (Jan 29, 2020)

Hey can Trump insert himself into Palestinian politics like Barack "Born in Kenya" Obama inserted himself into Israeli politics? Might help to have new, pro-peace Leadership there for a change


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## toomuchtime_ (Jan 29, 2020)

Litwin said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Litwin said:
> ...


The status quo will remain because there is no viable alternative to it.


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## Litwin (Jan 29, 2020)

JWBooth said:


> Bantustans in an oppressive apartheid state.


"Bantustans in an oppressive apartheid state" you are right, as meanwhile SA has always been magnet for million non SA bantu   , 90% of GDP of sub- Saharan  Africa , *submarines  *and nukes . much like Israel today ...  i dont say what is right or what is wrong,  i am just  saying that  Israel - Palestinian picture is not so simple, not  black and white


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## Tijn Von Ingersleben (Jan 29, 2020)

Litwin...I always knew you were a Jew.


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## Mac1958 (Jan 29, 2020)

Ian Bremmer is, most decidedly, NOT a Trumpster.  He's a well-known and respected political scientist and geopolitical consultant.  He's also an Editor-at-Large for Time magazine.

Anyway, I was a little surprised to see him relatively positive about this plan, and that's a pretty freaking good sign.  *Maybe we should just hope for the best: *

How Trump's Peace Plan Will Change the Middle East

_"This proposal will not lead to peace in the coming weeks or months or maybe ever—and it may lead to an immediate outbreak of violence in the Palestinian territories. But, I think by recognizing the harsh realities on the ground and leveraging the unique position of the U.S. in the Middle East, it might open a process that will reduce tension in the region. Based on my early assessment of the plan, it is an effort worth taking."_
.


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## shockedcanadian (Jan 29, 2020)

I just don't see any other president getting it done anytime soon if it can't be done now.  Both Israel and Palestine are feeling different pressures, and as such, it's the right time to "just do it".

Israel sees the growing movement of the alt-left and socialism in the West and they know with it comes interference by China and global socialists who find religion and the existent of it anywhere to be a threat.  Palestine feel hopeless with most Arab nations viewing them as a burden or a minor issue for them either than to use them as a reason to justify their own hatred.

One never says never, but I imagine that peace would be a good choice in 2020.  How many generations of citizens want to deal with this?  As the world gets smaller, moves faster, provides opportunities for many that didn't exist in the past, the younger generation has no appetite for constant war and anger.

The older a generation in the past becomes, the less influence they have.  Youth today care little about grievances of old, to them, it's time to fix the problem and move on.  Find a reasonable solution of peace and make the world a better place.


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## Mac1958 (Jan 29, 2020)

shockedcanadian said:


> I just don't see any other president getting it done anytime soon if it can't be done now.  Both Israel and Palestine are feeling different pressures, and as such, it's the right time to "just do it".
> 
> Israel sees the growing movement of the alt-left and socialism in the West and they know with it comes interference by China and global socialists who find religion and the existent of it anywhere to be a threat.  Palestine feel hopeless with most Arab nations viewing them as a burden or a minor issue for them either than to use them as a reason to justify their own hatred.
> 
> ...


A (just barely strong enough) deal could FINALLY be the pressure valve the area needs.  No one thing will fix the whole mess, but so much of what happens there in terms of war and terrorism and other horrors is due to the fact that there has been NO excuse NOT to engage in that stuff.

A good (enough) deal could AT LEAST start some momentum.
.


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## Biff_Poindexter (Jan 29, 2020)

I strongly support Trump in getting a 2 state solution done and he should win the Nobel prize if he can make it happen.....

Plus, it will totally trigger the libs...which is the most important thing of all...


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## theHawk (Jan 29, 2020)

A great move by the President.  When the Palestinians reject the plan, it will demonstrate to the world they have no intention of ever living peacefully with Jews.


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## georgephillip (Jan 29, 2020)

Biff_Poindexter said:


> Maybe Trump can get this done since he and Bibi are so close -- maybe Bibi will totally ignore his previous stances on statehood for Palestine if Trump tells him to..


Was it a mistake for an impeached POTUS and an indicted Israeli Prime Minister to construct this "plan" without including indigenous Palestinians in the negotiations?




Trump Peace Plan Embraced In Israel, Rejected By Palestinians


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## M14 Shooter (Jan 29, 2020)

Biff_Poindexter said:


> Trump proposes Palestinian state with capital in East Jerusalem


All you need now is for the Israelis to agree.


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## Claudette (Jan 29, 2020)

Mac-7 said:


> Litwin said:
> 
> 
> > *Kushner: Trump's plan last chance for a Palestinian state. do you agree with Kushner? *
> ...



Yup and I cannot tell you how much of a shit I do not give. I hope they all kill themselves.


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## Biff_Poindexter (Jan 29, 2020)

georgephillip said:


> Biff_Poindexter said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe Trump can get this done since he and Bibi are so close -- maybe Bibi will totally ignore his previous stances on statehood for Palestine if Trump tells him to..
> ...


I refuse to believe that Israel and the US would leave Palestinians out of talks to make them an independent state....that can't be true...


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## Billy_Kinetta (Jan 29, 2020)

Biff_Poindexter said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > Biff_Poindexter said:
> ...



It's called in the usual vernacular "Take it or leave it."

The "Palestinians" have nothing with which to deal.


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## DigitalDrifter (Jan 29, 2020)

The Palestinians have been offered a two-state solution before, and they've always turned it down.


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## Votto (Jan 29, 2020)

Biff_Poindexter said:


> Trump proposes Palestinian state with capital in East Jerusalem
> 
> Obviously when Obama or those evil Jew hating libs proposed statehood for Palestine -- it was one of the most evil concepts known to man and should be opposed at all costs.....but.....
> 
> ...



There must be some agreement those hardened terrorists who are dedicated to the destruction of the Zionist state can reach with Bibi.

How about the Zionists be cast into the sea?  Na, they would vote that down as well.  They would probably insist on torturing them first.


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## Biff_Poindexter (Jan 29, 2020)

Votto said:


> Biff_Poindexter said:
> 
> 
> > Trump proposes Palestinian state with capital in East Jerusalem
> ...


Well then the US and Israel should just wipe the Palestinians off the map ….for freedom...

I wonder where those dirty muzzies were living before the 1940's --- definitely not where they are living now...the scum!


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## Coyote (Jan 29, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote
> 
> Thoughts?  This deal *should* meet your objectives for solving the conflict, no?


I am conflicted.  The devil is in the details and this was put together by Israel and the US  excluding the palestinians.  Israel seems to get  everything they want.  What exactly are the pals  getting in terms of what they want?  I was listening to an informative set of interviews on this morning on BBC world.  I am on my phone and can't  download it at the moment, but will later.

One point made was Israel can annex Arab villages to Palestine.  What exactly does that mean? Arab Israeli's by far prefer their Israeli citizenship. They chose, they are well integrated.  Does this mean forcing people to lose their citizenship?  Shouldn't the people affected have some say?


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## Coyote (Jan 29, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote
> 
> Thoughts?  This deal *should* meet your objectives for solving the conflict, no?


I see positives but have not read it yet.


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 29, 2020)

*Trump's fake 'peace plan' is permanent apartheid for Palestine*

**


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jan 29, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> *Trump's fake 'peace plan' is permanent apartheid for Palestine*
> 
> **



The deals will just keep getting worse and worse for the Palestinian Arabs as the years go on.  So they should grab this one very quickly.


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 29, 2020)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > *Trump's fake 'peace plan' is permanent apartheid for Palestine*
> ...


*Get your apartheid now. Limited time offer.*
**


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## Hollie (Jan 29, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> *Get your apartheid now. Limited time offer.*
> **



The usual pointless spam.


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 29, 2020)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > *Get your apartheid now. Limited time offer.*
> ...


Fight pointless with pointless.


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## Shusha (Jan 29, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote
> ...



There are some very, very good details for the Palestinians in this Vision.  They get everything they want except the ability to destroy Israel, IMO.

I've read the entire document.  I'm not sure what you mean by "Israel can annex Arab villages to Palestine".  The Vision states that 97% of Israelis will be in Israeli territory.  And 97% of Arab Palestinians will be in Palestinian territory.

The remaining Arab Palestinians will be in enclaves surrounded by Israeli territory, but will be able to choose to remain in place or to move if they so wish.  They will be citizens of Palestine and fully subject to Palestinian sovereignty, including zoning, planning, and infrastructure within their enclaves.  They will have direct access to the State of Palestine.

The remaining Israelis will be in enclaves surrounded by Palestine territory, but will be able to choose to remain in place or move if they so wish.  They will be citizens of Israel and fully subject to Israeli sovereignty, including zoning, planning and infrastructure within their enclaves.  They will have direct access to the State of Israel.

There is specific language that neither group will be discriminated against. 

The Vision is very clear, in all areas, that the individuals will have choice.  Good details.


(Page 12 for those wanting to look it up.)


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jan 29, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



My point wasn't pointless.  The Palestinians are looking for a utopian deal that just doesn't exist.  In the language of Arabic, there is no word corresponding to the English "compromise" or the Hebrew "peshara."  The world is moving along without them.  Several Gulf Arab states are already normalizing relations with Israel.  Israel has become a high-tech start-up nation.  The Palestinians still herd sheep and donkeys.  If they can't get their act together soon, they will eventually lose everything.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jan 29, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



What about the holy sites (like the Western Wall and the Tombs of Abraham, Rachel and Joseph)?


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jan 29, 2020)

Biff_Poindexter said:


> RoshawnMarkwees said:
> 
> 
> > With a big barbed wire fence around it and guard observation towers.
> ...



Most, if not all, of that proposed 50 billion dollars will be coming from the oil rich Arab Gulf states.


----------



## Hollie (Jan 29, 2020)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Biff_Poindexter said:
> 
> 
> > RoshawnMarkwees said:
> ...



While that may be the plan, I have real doubts that Gulf Arabs will dig deep for the Pals. They havent done so historically and with Hamas aligning so closely with Iran, there seems to be real resentment by the Gulf states toward the Pal leadership.


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 29, 2020)

So.......the Arab States like the Peace plan...the Peace plan gives the Palestinians just about everything they want.....

And they say no.

For those to silly to understand...do you finally see that the Palestinians are the problem, not Israel?

HISTORIC: Arab States Welcome Trump’s Israeli-Palestinian Peace Plan


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (Jan 29, 2020)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > *Get your apartheid now. Limited time offer.*
> ...



That’s all he has. Let the Palestinians act like human beings and in time those barriers will come down 
   However he has actually admitted that the long term goal is the Destruction of Israel yet he spouts “ International Law”


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (Jan 29, 2020)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



If the Palestinians had their way the Israelis would have no rights to any of them.  To that I say”. NEVER AGAIN “


----------



## Shusha (Jan 29, 2020)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> What about the holy sites (like the Western Wall and the Tombs of Abraham, Rachel and Joseph)?



All of the Old City and the Tomb of the Patriarchs remain under Israeli sovereignty. (Not sure about other sites).

The Jordan/Israel status quo for the Temple Mount remains in place.

Freedom of access and prayer (!) to be guaranteed at all holy sites for all peoples, with consideration to special holidays and celebrations for each faith.  

Specific language stating that all people be permitted to pray on the Temple Mount/Haram al-Sharif.

A "world-class" Muslim Tourist Zone outside Jerusalem with fast-track, easy access to the Muslim shrines and the Old City.

A joint tourism development agency.  


(pages 14 and 16, mostly)


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (Jan 29, 2020)

Shusha said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > What about the holy sites (like the Western Wall and the Tombs of Abraham, Rachel and Joseph)?
> ...






  Unlike their Savage Neighbors

Muslims chant about killing Jews outside Jerusalem’s Temple Mount


----------



## Litwin (Jan 29, 2020)

theHawk said:


> A great move by the President.  When the Palestinians reject the plan, it will demonstrate to the world they have no intention of ever living peacefully with Jews.


"When the Palestinians reject the plan, *it will demonstrate to the world they have no intention of ever living peacefully with Jews"

we have it already : *

*World leaders react to Trump's Middle East plan*

*Pakistan*
Pakistan's foreign ministry said the country consistently backs a two-state solution, as enshrined in the relevant Security Council and General Assembly Resolutions.

"Pakistan continues to support a just and lasting solution of the Palestinian issue, through dialogue and negotiations, that leads to the realization of the legitimate rights of the Palestinians, including the right of self-determination," it said in a statement.

"We renew our call for the establishment of a viable, independent and contiguous State of Palestine, on the basis of internationally-agreed parameters, the pre-1967 borders, and with Al-Quds Al-Sharif [Jerusalem] as its capital."

*Turkey*
Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan said the proposal "will not serve peace and resolution" in the region, calling it "a plan to ignore the rights of the Palestinians and legitimise Israel's occupation".

"Jerusalem is sacred to Muslims. The plan to give Jerusalem to Israel can never be accepted," he told reporters on Wednesday, while returning from a plane trip to Senegal.

Earlier, Turkey's foreign ministry described it as an "annexation plan that aims to kill the two-state solution and seize Palestinian lands", calling it "stillborn".

The Palestinian people and their lands "cannot be bought," the ministry said in a statement.

*Qatar*
Qatar said it welcomed efforts to broker peace but warned that was unattainable without concessions to the Palestinians.

A statement carried by state-run Qatar News Agency said the country "welcomes all efforts aiming towards a longstanding and just peace in the occupied Palestinian territories". It said Qatar "appreciates the endeavours of President Trump and the current US administration to find solutions for the Palestinian-Israeli conflict", but added that "all solutions should be consistent with international law and the relevant UN resolutions".

"All Arab states, through the Arab League, have adopted in 2002 the Arab Peace Initiative, which articulated a set of principles conducive to a just peace," the statement said.

"The State of Qatar notes in this context that peace cannot be sustainable if Palestinians' rights in their sovereign state within the 1967 borders, including East Jerusalem, and the right of return are not preserved."

*UAE*
Yousef al-Otaiba, the United Arab Emirates' ambassador to Washington, said the plan "offers an important starting point for a return to negotiations within a US-led international framework".

"The only way to guarantee a lasting solution is to reach an agreement between all concerned parties," al-Otaiba said in a statement on Tuesday. 

"The UAE believes that Palestinians and Israelis can achieve lasting peace and genuine coexistence with the support of the international community."

*Jordan*
Jordan warned against "annexation of Palestinian lands" with the kingdom's foreign minister warning against the "dangerous consequences of unilateral Israeli measures that aim to impose new realities on the ground".

Ayman Safadi called for direct negotiations that solve all final status issues in a comprehensive solution under established terms of reference, the Arab peace initiative and international law.

Establishment of a Palestinian state with East Jerusalem as its capital, based on a two-state solution, is the only path to comprehensive and lasting peace, Safadi said in a statement.

"Jordan supports every genuine effort aimed at achieving just and comprehensive peace that people will accept," he said.

Dozens of protesters gathered outside the US embassy in Amman to protest Trump's plan, shouting slogans including "No to normalisation" and "We will not recognise Israel".

*United Nations*
United Nations Secretary-General Antonio Guterres, according to his spokesperson Stephane Dujarric, said the UN supports two states living in peace and security within recognised borders, based on the pre-1967 borders. 

"The United Nations remains committed to supporting Palestinians and Israelis to resolve the conflict on the basis of United Nations resolutions, international law and bilateral agreements and realizing the vision of two States - Israel and Palestine - living side by side in peace and security within recognized borders, on the basis of the pre-1967 lines."


----------



## Tommy Tainant (Jan 29, 2020)

Trump is the problem.The next pres will have to come in and clear up this mess.


----------



## Dont Taz Me Bro (Jan 29, 2020)

Tommy Tainant said:


> Trump is the problem.



In what way?


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jan 29, 2020)

Litwin said:


> *United Nations*
> United Nations Secretary-General Antonio Guterres, according to his spokesperson Stephane Dujarric, said the UN supports two states living in peace and security within recognised borders, based on the pre-1967 borders.
> 
> "The United Nations remains committed to supporting Palestinians and Israelis to resolve the conflict on the basis of United Nations resolutions, international law and bilateral agreements and realizing the vision of two States - Israel and Palestine - living side by side in peace and security within recognized borders, on the basis of the pre-1967 lines."


As the parties in question resolved the controversy under international law in 1994, the UN has no relevance here.


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (Jan 29, 2020)

M14 Shooter said:


> Litwin said:
> 
> 
> > *United Nations*
> ...




" International Law" became irrelevant in 1967 after the U.N. DELIBERATELY left knowing the War was forthcoming


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (Jan 29, 2020)

RoshawnMarkwees said:


> With a big barbed wire fence around it and guard observation towers.




  Maybe there are reasons for it 

The victory march will continue until the Palestinian flag flies in Jerusalem and in all of Palestine. Yasser Arafat Quotes - InspyreApp | Inspyre


----------



## Tommy Tainant (Jan 29, 2020)

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> > Trump is the problem.
> ...


He concocts the deal of the century with just one side and presents it to the world with, again one side while his audience claps like seals. 

It has been done to deflect from his impeachment and has done nothing raise tensions in the area.
Its reunited Fatah and Hamas and I really cant see it as any sort of solution . 

Do you think it resolves the problem ?


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (Jan 29, 2020)

Abbas admits he rejected 2008 peace offer from Olmert


 Olmert gave them ALMOST everything they wanted and they still rejected it 

 Does anyone RE
Olmert said he had offered a near-total withdrawal from the West Bank — proposing that Israel retain 6.3 percent of the territory in order to keep control of major Jewish settlements. He said he offered to compensate the Palestinians with Israeli land equivalent to 5.8 percent of the West Bank, along with a link to the Gaza Strip — another territory meant to be part of Palestine.

He also said he offered to withdraw from Arab neighborhoods of east Jerusalem and place the Old City — home to Jerusalem’s most sensitive holy sites — under international control. He described the offer to give up Israeli control of the Old City as the hardest day of his life.

Abbas said he supported the idea of territorial swaps, but that Olmert pressed him into agreeing to the plan without allowing him to study the proposed map.

“He showed me a map. He didn’t give me a map,” Abbas said. “He told me, ‘This is the map’ and took it away. I respected his point of view, but how can I sign on something that I didn’t receive?”

Olmert confirmed that he pressed Abbas to initial the offer that day.

Abbas said he also felt Olmert’s offer to accept a symbolic number of Palestinian refugees into Israel did not resolve the issue — because descendants of Palestinian refugees now number in the millions, many scattered across the region.

  Does anyone REALLY believe he didn't have the " time" to study a Map?


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jan 29, 2020)

Tommy Tainant said:


> Do you think it resolves the problem ?


As it leaves the Islamofascist hatred for Jews in place - no.


----------



## Shusha (Jan 29, 2020)

Tommy Tainant said:


> Trump is the problem.The next pres will have to come in and clear up this mess.



How is this Peace Framework a "mess"?!

Its a valid, comprehensive, extremely detailed plan.  It addresses the security needs of Israel, and provides for a contiguous, sovereign, recognized State of Palestine with East Jerusalem as its capital, full trade access to Jordan, Egypt and the Mediterranean, continued status quo of the Temple Mount and not one, but TWO luxury resorts.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jan 29, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> > Trump is the problem.The next pres will have to come in and clear up this mess.
> ...


But...   It's not "from the river to the sea" - and so, the islamofascists aren't interested,


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jan 29, 2020)

Tommy Tainant said:


> Trump is the problem.The next pres will have to come in and clear up this mess.



Obama didn't fix everything during his 8 years?


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jan 29, 2020)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> > Trump is the problem.The next pres will have to come in and clear up this mess.
> ...


No - He blamed Bush for all His failures.


----------



## Litwin (Jan 29, 2020)

Tommy Tainant said:


> Trump is the problem.The next pres will have to come in and clear up this mess.


do you know that czar vovka *Putler gave  this "deal" to trump*? do you need the evidence ?


----------



## Litwin (Jan 29, 2020)

Sunni Man said:


> Palestinians know from previous experience, that making a deal with Israel'i jews is the same as making a deal with the devil.  ..


well, can an arab state build a modern state ? mention one , maybe Israel occupation is  not that bad much like the Afrikaner dominance was in SU


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Jan 29, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote
> ...


As usual, you have misrepresented the facts.  The Palestinians weren't excluded from participation in drawing up the plan, they simply refused to participate.  The annexation map was drawn up so that no Arab villages would be annexed.  While the Palestinians refused to participate in drawing up the plan, in an effort to be fair, the US worked closely with Arab states including Saudi Arabia and Egypt, both strong supporters of the Palestinian national aspirations, to fairly represent Palestinian interests, and both countries strongly support the plan.

Israel did not get everything it wanted.  If the Palestinians agree to participate in the plan, Israel will have to recognize a sovereign Palestinian state in approximately 70% of Judea and Samaria in addition to Gaza, and Israel will have to allow the Palestinians to operate their own shipping companies out of Haifa and Ashdod, allowing the Palestinians direct access to North Africa and Europe without going through Israeli customs.  Both of these items are very unpopular in Israel.  In addition, Israel will have to agree to a four year freeze on construction in area that go to the Palestinians if they agree to the plan.  

What the Palestinians get is US and Israeli recognition of a sovereign state of Palestine in 70% of Judea and Samaria in addition to Gaza - ,making their new state eligible for membership in the UN -their own shipping companies in Haifa and Ashdod that will not have to go through Israeli customs, and sufficient investment in the Palestinian economy - at least $25,000.000,000 - to double or triple their GDP and wages and salaries.  

The question is not how this compares with what the Palestinians want, but how this compares to other options the Palestinians can realistically aspire to, and the answer is the only other option is the status quo, all this plan will cost the Palestinians is the inestimable joy they receive from murdering Jews.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jan 29, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



Thought it was 50 billion dollars.


----------



## Indeependent (Jan 29, 2020)

Sunni Man said:


> Palestinians know from previous experience, that making a deal with Israel'i jews is the same as making a deal with the devil.  ..


Since many Jews live in the US and Israel I hope you do due diligence and make sure you don’t deal with them.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Jan 29, 2020)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Twenty five billion directly into the Palestinian economy and twenty five billion into the economies of the states bordering the new Palestinian state to bolster the regional economy.


----------



## Sunni Man (Jan 29, 2020)

Indeependent said:


> Since many Jews live in the US and Israel I hope you do due diligence and make sure you don’t deal with them.


If you noticed, I was talking about Israeli jews.

I generally don't have a problem with American jews, unless they are hard core zionists.  ....


----------



## Indeependent (Jan 29, 2020)

Sunni Man said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Since many Jews live in the US and Israel I hope you do due diligence and make sure you don’t deal with them.
> ...


I hate to break it to you but many Israeli Jews spend half the year in the US and the majority of Jews are Zionists even though they won’t admit it in public.

As far as most Muslim nations are concerned you don’t have much to brag about.


----------



## Sunni Man (Jan 29, 2020)

Indeependent said:


> I hate to break it to you but many Israeli Jews spend half the year in the US and the majority of Jews are Zionists even though they won’t admit it in public.


Many American jews have dual Israeli citizenship, meaning dual loyalty with a foreign country. Which is another reason jews can't be trusted. Because they would gladly choose Israel over America if forced to make a choice.  ..


----------



## Indeependent (Jan 29, 2020)

Sunni Man said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > I hate to break it to you but many Israeli Jews spend half the year in the US and the majority of Jews are Zionists even though they won’t admit it in public.
> ...


Which Muslims nations have you visited?


----------



## Sunni Man (Jan 29, 2020)

Indeependent said:


> Which Muslims nations have you visited?


There are like 57 muslim majority countries that range from dirt poor countries with illiterate citizens, to wealthy modern countries with ultra modern cities, and everything in between.

I haven't visited them all, but enough to know what I'm talking about.  ..


----------



## MJB12741 (Jan 29, 2020)

Sunni Man said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Since many Jews live in the US and Israel I hope you do due diligence and make sure you don’t deal with them.
> ...



Thank you Suni.  We really give a shit what you think of American Jews.


----------



## Indeependent (Jan 29, 2020)

Sunni Man said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Which Muslims nations have you visited?
> ...


You description is correct.
Unlike Islam, Jews don’t have a dictate to conquer the world.


----------



## Hollie (Jan 29, 2020)

Sunni Man said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Which Muslims nations have you visited?
> ...


That’s actually funny. The goofy convert safely ensconced in the Great Satan.  .. 

True story.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jan 29, 2020)

Sunni Man said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > I hate to break it to you but many Israeli Jews spend half the year in the US and the majority of Jews are Zionists even though they won’t admit it in public.
> ...



Since Israel and America are great allies, they will never have to make a choice.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 29, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Here is the Peace to Prosperity Plan if any one cares to read all 181 pages.



Reading it ....


----------



## Shusha (Jan 29, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Here is the Peace to Prosperity Plan if any one cares to read all 181 pages.
> ...



Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.


----------



## Crepitus (Jan 29, 2020)

Complete non-starter.  

Nothing but an attempt to distract folks from both crooked politician's troubles.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 29, 2020)

*Does Trump's 'deal of the century' make Middle East peace impossible? | The Bottom Line*

**


----------



## Indeependent (Jan 29, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> *Does Trump's 'deal of the century' make Middle East peace impossible? | The Bottom Line*
> 
> **


So Iran and Iraq are at peace?
Lebanon is okdokee being invaded by Syria?
You’re at peace being insane?


----------



## Coyote (Jan 29, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



It's a long read - I'm only on page 28 lol - but it intrigues me, I see some potential.

I'm taking a break from reading it now though.  I need some junk food for my mind


----------



## Coyote (Jan 29, 2020)

Crepitus said:


> Complete non-starter.
> 
> Nothing but an attempt to distract folks from both crooked politician's troubles.



I don't think so - it's worth a read I think.  I do have a concern *that it was released prematurely *to distract from  the two crooked politicians troubles.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 29, 2020)

Tommy Tainant said:


> Dont Taz Me Bro said:
> 
> 
> > Tommy Tainant said:
> ...



Both are valid concerns.  Honestly I think there MIGHT be merit in it, but the process in which it was produced is flawed in excluding by design, any Palestinian participation.


----------



## Crepitus (Jan 29, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Crepitus said:
> 
> 
> > Complete non-starter.
> ...


It's going nowhere.  It leaves the Palestinians completely at the mercy of Israel.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 29, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...




Regarding this:  _As usual, you have misrepresented the facts.  The Palestinians weren't excluded from participation in drawing up the plan, they simply refused to participate.
_
Did Jared Kushner have any talks with the Palestinians?  Did he attempt any talks while formulating this? I don't think he did. He hashed it out first with Israel...no Palestinian invite. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't remember reading anything about Palestinians being invited 0 only Jared trotting off to Israel.

And add Trump's actions towards them regarding Jerusalem, their consulate, and international aid - of course they weren't going to be part of it later.

Kushner  basically  trashed the Palestinian people with the type of statement that harkens back to the Paternalistic attitudes of the colonial empires:

"_Do they want to have a state? Do they want to have a better life? If they do, we have created a framework for them to have it, and we’re going to treat them in a very respectful manner. If they don’t, then they’re going to screw up another opportunity like they’ve screwed up every other opportunity that they’ve ever had in their existence._"

There is at best, a certain naiveté and arrogance in some of it.  The development ideas are straight out of an American frame of reference and there is a certain pie-in-the-sky aspect to it (where in the heck is all the money going to come from?).  There is a heavy reliance on state of the art this and high speed that and a hell of a lot of infrastructure.  It reminds me of a real-estate developer's model for a proposed community sales pitch.  Most often, development works best in conjunction with the communities it is supposed to serve and a bottom up not top down approach.  Has anyone asked the Palestinian people (not leadership) what they envision?

I've only read the first 30 pages, and this is what I've noticed so far.

That said - I do think there are some possibilities, but it may have been rendered toxic by the method in which it was created.

And still - where will all this money come from?  A lot of promises....


----------



## Coyote (Jan 29, 2020)

Crepitus said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Crepitus said:
> ...



That is one concern.


----------



## Crepitus (Jan 29, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Crepitus said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


As far as the Palestinians are concerned that's it, it's over.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 29, 2020)

*Mehdi Hasan: Trump’s Middle East Plan Is a Policy of Apartheid & Settler Colonialism*

**
*“Yet Another Declaration of War on Palestinians”: Rashid Khalidi on Trump’s Middle East “Peace” Plan

*


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jan 29, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> *Mehdi Hasan: Trump’s Middle East Plan Is a Policy of Apartheid & Settler Colonialism*
> 
> **
> *“Yet Another Declaration of War on Palestinians”: Rashid Khalidi on Trump’s Middle East “Peace” Plan*
> ...




*Trump’s Middle East Plan Is a Policy of Apartheid & Settler Colonialism*

Outrageous!!

Only Muzzies get to use those policies.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 29, 2020)

Crepitus said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Crepitus said:
> ...



Frankly I think Israel was long planning an annexation, this formalizes it in  the shape of a "US sanctioned" plan and throws a rope to two troubled political leaders.

I've not finished reading it though - and there is some merit in some of the suggestions.

I can't agree with any plan that involves forced population expulsions, and I understand Israel's need for security and concerns about Hamas.   Any plan must address that.

The map though, is not detailed and doesn't really show the many many settlements (some quite small) that will be "Israeli" territory surrounded by "Palestinian" territory - the measles map.  This is exactly why the settlements are such a core problem for the Palestinians.  The lack of contiguousness is a huge issue that I'm not sure is really understood in the plan - BUT - there might be more detail further in besides a heavy dependence on "state of the art infrastructure" and "high speed rail."


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Jan 29, 2020)

Coyote said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Once again, you show that if you didn't lie you wouldn't have anything to post at all.  Kushner, Greenblatt and Friedman all asked the Palestinians to participate in drawing up the plan, but after the US recognized  western Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, Abbas refused to deal with the US on any level.  Last summer Kushner repeatedly asked Abbas to reconsider participation in the plan, but he proudly and publicly refused.  If the people want to reach out beyond their government there is nothing stopping them except the likelihood of being punished by their government.  

However the plan is merely the basis for negotiations and it is still possible for the PA to participate, but if they refuse, it will not prevent Israel from annexing that Jordan Valley and the existing settlements in Judea and Samaria.  

lol  what's amusing about your post is that it is just like Abbas' response to the plan: you don't yet know what is in it but you are sure you are opposed to it.


----------



## Crepitus (Jan 29, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Crepitus said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


It's dead on arrival.  This really isn't anything but netanyahu's wish list.

Some things have a bit of "merit" as you've said, but I out that in the category of blind chance.  Even a broken closk is right twice a day.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Jan 29, 2020)

Crepitus said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Crepitus said:
> ...


lol  What does it mean that it is dead on arrival?  Israel will proceed with the annexation of the Jordan Valley and its settlements no matter what the PA does - the cabinet will meet on Tuesday to vote on it and the Knesset will fast track the annexations.  The Palestinians can only hurt themselves by continuing to boycott the plan.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Jan 29, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Crepitus said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Again, you just can't keep from lying in every post, can you?  The plan does not involve any forced population transfers and the the map has been constructed so that the area Israel will annex will be contiguous and the area the Palestinians will get will also be contiguous.  Despite the fact that Israeli settlements combined only cover about 1% of the land of Judea and Samaria and the settlement blocs cover only about 8% Israel will receive about 30% of the land so that there will be no isolated settlements.  No Israelis or Palestinians will have to be uprooted from their homes or live surrounded by the others' land.  The plan was drawn up in consultations with Egypt, Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states in order to make sure the interests of the Palestinians were protected despite the refusal of the PA to participate in drawing up the plan to protect the interests of its people.


----------



## MisterBeale (Jan 29, 2020)

Mac-7 said:


> Litwin said:
> 
> 
> > *Kushner: Trump's plan last chance for a Palestinian state. do you agree with Kushner? *
> ...


The orthodox Jews, and evangelical Christians are bent on Armageddon as well, you can't pin this all on the radical Muslims.

Those nutty Jews and Christians are hell bent on rebuilding that temple, don't tell me they aren't.

For the Jews, they need it rebuilt for the first appearance of their messiah, for the evangelicals, they need it for the second coming.


I've seen much in this thread made about. . . "this is Trump and Bibi trying to distract from their political troubles. . . "

. . . and yet, I fear folks don't really understand what is truly going on.

. .  I am afraid, this is Trump's nod to Bibi.

Is this -- the last ditch effort to avoid war with Iran in the spring?  If it is, it is one hell of a lousy one, Israel isn't really giving the Arabs much considering all they have taken.

I saw only one post in this entire thread mention how Pali groups have moved closer to Iran.

The leverage here is all Iran's.  Both the U.S. AND Israel, if they were rational, and sober, should be giving up a hell of A LOT MORE to ensure peace.  Otherwise?  I could see the world going up in flames.

I just read an interesting article that explains this Don Quixote like Impeachment.  What if, on the off chance, it succeeds?  What then?

If Trump is forced out, what this sham is probably all about, and why Trump made that preemptive move over, is maybe he is vehemently OPPOSED to America getting involved, or Israel launching a WWIII type conflagration in the Middle East.    Was it his attempt to appease Bibi's blood-lust?

. . .but. .. if they decide to do it anyway?  He will have to go.  THAT is what this could be all about, and why the urgency before just waiting for an election.

. . . and it will have to be before Spring and any war campaign can be launched, as the window of opportunity is closing.

With that in mind. . . this peace plan was some weak ass sauce if it were intended to avoid a conflagration in the middle east. . . Just sayin'  

Any amount of luck. . . all this will be wrong and avoided.

*Impeachment: What Lies Beneath? *
The Polemicist: Impeachment: What Lies Beneath?

 ". . . There is one thing that I can think of that drives such frantic urgency: War. That would also explain why Trump’s “national security” problem—embedded in the focus on Ukraine arms shipments, Russian aggression, etc.—is the real issue, the whistle to Republican war dogs. But if so, the Ukro-Russian motif is itself a screen for another “national security”/war issue that cannot be stated explicitly. There's no urgency about aggression towards Russia. There is for Iran.

 So here's my entirely speculative tea-leaf reading: _If_ there's a hidden agenda behind the urgency to remove Trump, one that might actually garner the votes of Republican Senators, it is to replace him with a president who will be a more reliable and effective leader for a military attack on Iran that Israel wants to initiate before next November. Spring is the cruelest season for launching wars.

 Crazy? Maybe, but reliable reports say that the leadership in both Israel and Iran have come to the conclusion that their two countries have reached a crossroad Israel calculates that Iran has already gained too much power in the region, that it has established a network of battle-hardened allies and a widening emplacement of increasingly accurate missiles that could right now seriously damage the Jewish state in any conflict. Indeed, the Pentagon reports that Iran is producing “increasingly capable ballistic and cruise missiles” with “better accuracy, lethality and range.” And “Axis of Resistance” sources tell Elijah J. Magnier that these missiles “have been delivered to Iraq, Syria and Lebanon.”

 The Houthi strike on Saudi Arabian oil fields in September confirmed this and stunned Israeli and US observers, as it demonstrated that Iran and its allies have missiles and attack drones that can avoid American anti-aircraft defenses and, most worrying, strike with pinpoint accuracy. Like this:






_US Government / AFP_

Four bull’s-eyes. From over 1000km away. 
 

 This is the picture of Israeli fear. These are not your daddy’s throwaway rockets that get fired blind and land in the middle of wherever. They are harbingers of increased military capability and confidence. They can find the Israeli Defense Ministry, a big building in the middle of Tel Aviv.

 Iran knows that Israel knows all this and cannot allow it to go any further. That’s why Israel is attacking Iranian Revolutionary Guard (IRGC) forces in Syria, Hezbollah warehouses in Lebanon, and Iranian-allied forces in Iraq. But, as Iran knows very well, that’s not enough, and Israel is determined, sooner rather than later, to strike large and at the root—Iran itself. All the more so because Iran is not backing down but beefing up, and proclaiming itself ready to fight rather than get pushed back. Magnier quotes an “Axis of Resistance” decision-maker: “There is no alternative to war. One day it will be war on a large scale.”

 It’s not that Iran does not know the damage Israel can do; it’s that they also know (and know that Israel knows) how little damage Israel can take. As the Deputy Commander of Operations of the IRGC, Abbas Nilforoushan, says, quoted by defense analyst Yossef Bodansky: “Iran has encircled Israel from all four sides…if only one missile hits the occupied lands, Israeli airports will be filled with people trying to run away from the country.” 

 Israel, even less than the US, cannot take casualties. A couple of bull’s eyes, a lot of Israelis go back to Brooklyn. The 82 million people in Iran have no place else to go.

 So, Netanyahu and the Israeli military leadership are at the point where they think it’s necessary to take Iran down _now_, before the strategic situation deteriorates for them even further. As they correctly fear, doing nothing carries at least as great a risk for them in the not-so-distant future as taking the risk of a direct attack on Iran does now. 

 Thus, Israeli journalist Ben Caspit tells former British diplomat Alastair Cooke that Israeli ministers “clearly state that a widespread war is likely to erupt in the next six months between Iran and its adversaries in the region, including Israel.” As Magnier specifies: “Considering the date in the next six months, this means the end of the spring and the beginning of the summer.” They don’t want to wait until the second Tuesday in November, let alone January 20, 2021. Everybody’s got a timetable.

 Let’s try to remember: It was in September, Bodansky notes, that Netanyahu, speaking to the IDF General Staff, warned that Israel had “hitherto” avoided “a comprehensive confrontation,” but “This might change soon… raising the specter of an all-out war as a distinct possibility.” It was in September, he also notes, that IRGC commanders concluded: “all chances for a diplomatic breakthrough collapsed.” It was in September, three months after Trump called off a strike against Iran at the last minute, that those extremely accurate Houthi drones and/or missiles struck key Saudi oil facilities. And it was ten days later in September that five “badass” freshman congresswomen—plus two men, all CIA or military officers—“changed…the course of history” and “the dynamic for House Democrats” with an op-ed in the _Washington Post_ that called for impeaching Trump, instantly converting a previously recalcitrant Nancy Pelosi to the cause.

 There followed Trump’s decision to withdraw from Syria—modified under pressure, but still “leaving the Kurds high and dry” and serving as another “warning sign to Israel.” And there came considerable teeth-gnashing about how Netanyahu’s “signature Iran policy … was rocked by the president's reluctance to flex US military muscle,” and left Israel “facing the reality of an unpredictable and transactional president who has deep reservations about using US military might, is afraid of getting involved in another Middle East conflict.”

 Now all of this—the coincidences of the September turning points and the Spring 2020 timetables for both “Netanyahu’s signature war” and Pelosi’s “constitutional duty” of impeachment—may be, most probably are, just that: coincidences. All the signs and proclamations about an impending war with Iran in the next six months may be, as they have been before, bluster and bluff. They probably are. There's probably no connection whatsoever between what's going on in the Israeli Defense Ministry and what's going on in the hallowed Halls of Congress. 

 But the strategic military balance in the Middle East _is_ changing rapidly, the US _is_ a less reliable partner, and Iran and Israel have reached the _zugzwang_ point where some big move is necessary and every possible one is dangerous. Everyone understands that any war with Iran will be widespread and immensely destructive. 

 That is exactly why Serious People in Israel and the United States would really, really want to have someone other than Donald Trump as President if there is going to be a war with Iran: It’s more than a fear that Trump won’t go along with it. (After all, he despises Iran, and can usually be made to do what the neocons want.) It’s that Israel won’t, in this instance, be looking to strike some weapons depots. It will be trying to eliminate the perceived strategic threat Iran poses and any possibility of retaliation—quickly, thoroughly, and for decades at least. That means destroying as much of the country as quickly as possible. Given Iran’s size (680,000 sq. mi.), strength, and tenacity, that means Israel will use overwhelming and ruthless force—including, I think, nuclear weapons. And Iran and its allied forces will strike back against all countries and all forces it considers complicit in the attack, everywhere they can reach. In that situation, Israel will need not only US military support, but, perhaps more importantly, the backing of an American president who projects the kind of leadership that can solicit the support, or at least the forbearance, of countries in the region, European countries, and the “international community.” That is not Donald Trump.. . .  ."

*Iran, Trump, and the neoliberal/neoconservative compact*
https://off-guardian.org/2020/01/19...kaCcwXuYxFA-i5F7gVy_uKesyppR30M1PJ6GZaThLLFes

We need to start paying more attention to the politics in other nations and major corporate sectors as well, when these events are going on. It will help bring more clarity to any analysis.

Trump Steps Back From the Edge. Neocons Rage Accordingly

Swiss Back Channel Helped Defuse U.S.-Iran Crisis

Putin Proposes Changes to Constitution, Medvedev Resigns: What's Going On?


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## Crepitus (Jan 29, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Crepitus said:
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"Peace.plan" without consulting with one of the parties?

It's  a crappy propaganda stunt, and Israel was gonna anex the land anyway.

Get ready for another uprising.


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## MisterBeale (Jan 29, 2020)

Crepitus said:


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. . . or an area wide conflagration.


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## Crepitus (Jan 29, 2020)

MisterBeale said:


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Need a 'sad but agree" button.


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## toomuchtime_ (Jan 29, 2020)

Crepitus said:


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The PA was repeatedly invited to participate in drawing up the plan but refused to even consider the idea.  However despite the PA's refusal to represent the interests of the people it governed the plan was drawn up in consultation with Egypt, Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states to ensure all the interests of the Palestinian people were properly addressed.  Even now it is not too late for the PA to represent the interests of the people it governs since everything in the plan is subject to negotiations between Israel and the PA.  

No other plan has ever been the product of so much research and analysis as this one, so calling it a crappy propaganda stunt is just an expression of ignorance and bigotry on your part.

What do you mean by another uprising?  The last one never ended.  There are fewer terrorist attacks now only because the security barrier nd the stepped up activities of the IDF, Border Police and Shin Bet make it nearly impossible for the terrorists to carry out successful attacks, nevertheless, daily Israelis security forces foil attempts to murder Jews by Palestinian terrorists being paid by the PA.  .


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## toomuchtime_ (Jan 29, 2020)

MisterBeale said:


> Crepitus said:
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You are going to be so disappointed.


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## MisterBeale (Jan 29, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


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If at the end of the year, Trump has not been impeached, and he is re-elected, and there is no war in the ME?  I will be pleasantly surprised.

TY.


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## Yarddog (Jan 30, 2020)

Sunni Man said:


> Palestinians know from previous experience, that making a deal with Israel'i jews is the same as making a deal with the devil.  ..




Apparently the deal would give Palestinians twice as much land as they already have + foreign investment and improved quality of life. If both could live peacefully side by side, they could always renegotiate one day. Walls would come down over time. But first they have to stop trying to push the Israelis into the sea. Give up Jerusalem,... they already have mecca, the most holy site for muslims and other places as well. All the Jews have is Jerusalem.


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## Mac-7 (Jan 30, 2020)

MisterBeale said:


> Mac-7 said:
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At least you are a thinking lib who understands there is more going on than what the idiots in the liberal news media are focusing on

yes orthodox Jews and evangelical Christians take their faith and religious teachings seriously

and they are on a collision course with the radical and completely insane muslim believers in Mohammed’s allah

thats why I knew trumps peace plan will fail before he even announced it

but you are wrong about Christians hoping for Armageddon

we know how terrible the last days of the Church Age will be


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## Coyote (Jan 30, 2020)

MisterBeale said:


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He is already impeached.


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## Coyote (Jan 30, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


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All the plans involved a great deal of research.


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## Coyote (Jan 30, 2020)

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Agree.  Annexation, IMO, was always in their plans, based on their strategy of shifting the demographics to make it more favorable, this just officially opens the door for them.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jan 30, 2020)

Crepitus said:


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*"Peace.plan" without consulting with one of the parties?*

Can't work any worse than the previous ones that they rejected.

*and Israel was gonna anex the land anyway.*

Pallies better hurry up, pretty soon their "state" will be smaller than Lichtenstein.


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## Olde Europe (Jan 30, 2020)

*Trump Deal*

Honi soit qui mal y pense.

What we get to behold is yet another enactment of that old story, two wolves negotiate how to prepare dinner while the sheep looks on.  As usual, it comes with honest-to-god assurances that, contrary to all pertinent experience and common sense, it will not hurt.  Rather, it is all going to be the fulfillment of the fondest dreams and the highest aspirations.  The sheep's dreams and aspirations, that is.

No one this side of willful insanity can believe this will be so much as considered by the Palestinians, much less that it is going to be accepted.  No one this side of willful insanity would consider this acceptable having walked a few inches in Palestinians' shoes.  The inevitable conclusion is, and must be, this is by design.  The fabulous "Peace Plan" will fail, or so the narrative will be, because of the Palestinian indolence and recalcitrance.

All the while, reportedly, Netanyahu, back in Israel, will get very busy extending Israeli law to the Jordan valley and all other regions on the Westbank he has his sights on.  Gantz has already signaled support - how could he not?  Did anyone miss the word "annexation"?  Because that's what this is, and that crime under international law will inexorably be linked to the U.S., indefinitely.

This so-called "peace deal" is a set-up, a propaganda ploy, long on shiny objects and business blab, so as to facilitate the creation of Bantustans, including declaring that open-air prison's "security" infrastructure "investment" in Palestine's future.  To add insult to injury, the Palestinians are being accustomed to calling this collection of Bantustans a "state", when, in fact, its "government" will have the power usually associated with a town's mayor, subject to be overruled by a self-serving higher authority.  The immediate target is the PA, which will lose whatever standing it has so far retained with the Palestinians.  In case that "Authority" falls apart, all bets are off.

One has to hand it to the creators of this "peace plan": They are putting Orwell to shame, and the arrogance and brazenness are nothing to sneeze at.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jan 30, 2020)

Olde Europe said:


> *Trump Deal*
> 
> Honi soit qui mal y pense.
> 
> ...



The Palestinians have always refused every offer to them, and they refused to participate in the preparation for this plan as well.  However, Jared has invited them to come to the table now, and make any suggestions or modifications to the plan that they like.  That's why a settlement freeze for the next 4 years has been announced.  Plus, 50 billion dollars in investments and infrastructure repairs is nothing to sneeze at.  To repeat, let them just come to the table.


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## rylah (Jan 30, 2020)

Coyote said:


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There're about 5,000 Israelis living in the Jordan Valley regional council,
so you're confusing something.

Demographics have nothing to do with it, rather geography,
the Jordan Valley has always been the default minimal defensive perimeter for Israel.


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## toomuchtime_ (Jan 30, 2020)

MisterBeale said:


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Then you must not be keeping up with events.  There was never a possibility that Trump would be removed from office meaning the entire impeachment show was never anything but a political stunt.  Virtually all the analysts expect Trump to be reelected.  Saudi Arabia, Egypt and the Gulf states all helped the US develop the plan and now support it, so it will not result in a war involving Israel.


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## M14 Shooter (Jan 30, 2020)

Indeependent said:


> Sunni Man said:
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Ann Arbor, MI
Dearborn, MI


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## Coyote (Jan 30, 2020)

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No.  It doesn't mean it was a political stunt.


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## toomuchtime_ (Jan 30, 2020)

Coyote said:


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That's simply not true but then only rarely do you post anything that is true.  Oslo was simply an attempt to appease the rabidly anti semitic Arab nations without any research into how it would impact either the Israelis or the Palestinians.  It never took into consideration how the weak and corrupt political leadership of the Palestinians was and the rabid anti semitism of the people would make it impossible for them to maintain peace with Israel.  Arafat understood this and begged Clinton and Barak not to push him to a final agreement, but both Clinton and Barak were so eager to add an Israeli-Palestinian peace treaty to their legacies that they pushed him anyway and Arafat responded with the second intifada.

Clearly no research went into the Obama administration's bumbling attempts to force the Israelis and Palestinians to negotiate by means of bribes and bullying.  

The current US peace plan is the result of intense research into what caused previous attempts to fail, and the team proposed solutions to all of these  problems.  Partly because the PA refused to talk to them and because the team recognized this was a regional issue, they took their proposed solutions to the Arab states that had historically been the main supporters of the Palestinians, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states and the current plan is the result of these consultations with the Arabs states and Israel.  All the Arab states consulted now support the plan.  This is the most thoroughly researched, detailed and comprehensive peace plan ever proposed.


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## Mindful (Jan 30, 2020)




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## toomuchtime_ (Jan 30, 2020)

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It's no secret that most Israelis want to annex the settlements, but there is a dispute among them about how much to annex.  The most common proposals run from just annexing the major settlements to annexing all of area C, about 60% of Judea and Samaria, which in the absence of a final agreement with the Palestinians is the most logical thing to do.  The US peace plan only allows Israel to annex about 50% of area C and freezes construction outside of the current settlements for four years, and it awards the other half of area C to the new Palestinian state if the PA agrees to the plan.


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## toomuchtime_ (Jan 30, 2020)

Coyote said:


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lol  Since impeachment is meant to be a process for removing a president from office and there was never a chance Trump would be removed from office, it can be nothing but a political stunt.


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## Mindful (Jan 30, 2020)

*Rationalist Judaism: The Know-It-Alls About Israel*
The Know-It-Alls About Israel





Among people I know (at least insofar as being Facebook friends), I've broadly seen two types of responses to Trump's "Deal of the Century" Peace Plan.

One group of people summarily rejects the idea of giving the Palestinians anything at all. Since they are "the enemy" and this is our land, we should not give them anything.

But none of these people propose what we should do instead. What's the long-term plan? Continue to rule over the Palestinians forever, without giving them the vote?

Another group of people summarily rejects the plan due to it not giving the Palestinians a fully independent state.

But none of these people propose what should and could realistically be done instead. How on earth can the Palestinians be given a fully independent state which will, in all likelihood, be used as a base for rocket attacks (and more) on Israel - with Israel politically restricted from responding due to the rockets being fired from civilian areas?

I'm not saying that I'm a fan of the Trump plan. My point is to demonstrate the weaknesses in the position of those who are so certain that it is utterly wrong, without acknowledging that their own position also has serious drawbacks. It's an essentially intractable problem with no good solution.


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 30, 2020)

Coyote said:


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Coyote said:


> Regarding this: _As usual, you have misrepresented the facts. The Palestinians weren't excluded from participation in drawing up the plan, they simply refused to participate._


That's crazy.

Jerusalem is off the table. Refugees are off the table Settlements are off the table. The Jordan Valley is off the table. Controlling your own borders is off the table.

So why don't you want to negotiate?


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## toomuchtime_ (Jan 30, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
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Indeed, why not negotiate for what is still available.  The Palestinians can still negotiate to secure what is is available, US and Israeli recognition of a contiguous sovereign Palestinian state in 70% of Judea and Samaria and massive investment in the Palestinian infrastructure and economy that will double or triple incomes or they can refuse to negotiate and get nothing.  Of course the Palestinians will refuse to accept anything less than everything they want because that's what they have always done.


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## Hollie (Jan 30, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
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Indeed, grab your koran, some balloons and gasoline and join the
gee-had.


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## Indeependent (Jan 30, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


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Negotiate with violent losers?


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## Hollie (Jan 30, 2020)

Mindful said:


> *Rationalist Judaism: The Know-It-Alls About Israel*
> The Know-It-Alls About Israel
> 
> 
> ...



Ultimately, how does anyone give a state to people who have shown no ability to form a functioning society? Both Gaza and the West Bank are largely feudal dictatorships not unlike so many others across the islamic Middle East. The two competing mini-caliphates are at each other's throats and unwilling to abandon the UNRWA welfare entitlement.


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## Mindful (Jan 30, 2020)

Indeependent said:


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> 
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Some points from  the article I posted upthread  resonated with me. How do we know rocket attacks on Israel  made from a future Palestinian state won't happen?

Gazan style.


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## toomuchtime_ (Jan 30, 2020)

Mindful said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
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The plan requires the Palestinians, including Hamas and Islamic Jihad to completely disarm, end all payments to terrorists and end all demonization of Israel and Jews within 4 years or they don't get a state.  In four years?  Maybe in four generations.


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## Mindful (Jan 30, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


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I can see that happening.


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## Hollie (Jan 30, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Mindful said:
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The Pals and PIJ will proceed with those societal changes on the honor system. That's worked out so well for the Ummah's girls.


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## toomuchtime_ (Jan 30, 2020)

Hollie said:


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Under the  plan the Palestinians have four years to demonstrate they have made these changes or no state and no money.


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 30, 2020)

This was painful to watch. These people are so misinformed.

*Trump's "deal of the century": Mideast plan imposes conditions on Palestinians*

**


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 30, 2020)

*Quick Thoughts On Trump's Palestine-Israel Peace Deal*

**


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## toomuchtime_ (Jan 30, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> *Quick Thoughts On Trump's Palestine-Israel Peace Deal*
> 
> **


So she admits she knows nothing about the deal but still has strong opinions about it.


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 30, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
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> > *Quick Thoughts On Trump's Palestine-Israel Peace Deal*
> ...


Except for some details, the plan has been out there for a long time.


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## toomuchtime_ (Jan 30, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


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Only since Tuesday.


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 30, 2020)

*Palestinian president to take Trump's Middle East plan to UN*

**


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## toomuchtime_ (Jan 30, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> *Palestinian president to take Trump's Middle East plan to UN*
> 
> **


(Yawn)


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## Hollie (Jan 30, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> *Palestinian president to take Trump's Middle East plan to UN*



The islamic terrorist goes to the UN. 

Sounds like a Pallywood movie.


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## Shusha (Jan 30, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Agree.  Annexation, IMO, was always in their plans, based on their strategy of shifting the demographics to make it more favorable, this just officially opens the door for them.



I disagree annexation was "always" in Israel's plans.  Annexation became part of the necessary conversation about 10-12 years ago as a result of the Arab Palestinian response to Israeli disengagement in Gaza.  Even then, there was a settlement freeze.  Its only been in the past 5-10 years that annexation has come to the forefront of the conversation.  And it is largely a result of continued violence from Gaza and the assumption that the WB would react in a similar fashion.  That is the CAUSE of the annexation of the Jordan Valley.  Its a security need. That is the CAUSE of the annexation of large settlement blocs.  Its a security need. That need for security is a direct result of Arab Palestinian actions and they are responsible for it.


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## Shusha (Jan 30, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> [
> 
> Jerusalem is off the table. Refugees are off the table Settlements are off the table. The Jordan Valley is off the table. Controlling your own borders is off the table.
> 
> So why don't you want to negotiate?



None of these items are necessarily "off the table".  If Arab Palestinians want some of those things, they need to come the table with some reasonable counter-offers.

We would like more territory in Jerusalem.
We would like to retain the Jordan Valley.
We would like to settle 200,000 refugees from Lebanon in Israel as Israeli citizens.
We would like to retain this settlement bloc.
We would like to have joint security control over our border with Jordan in five years, with sole control in ten.

These are all options.  Come to the table.  Its the principle.  Its the willingness to enter the conversation.  

Arab Palestine is absolutely not going to get everything they want.  Not remotely.  But if they show even a minimal understanding of WHY Israel wants what Israel wants, they might get something.


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## Shusha (Jan 30, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Except for some details, the plan has been out there for a long time.



Agreed.  Its essentially the same plan that has been offered and refused many times over the past four decades.  But each time the plan gets just a little bit worse for the Arab Palestinians.  

And several things have changed, especially the Iran threat and normalization with Arab countries.  I don't think an offer like this is going to be made again.  Israel is getting impatient with the constant refusals and low-intensity violence.  Israel is going to start making unilateral moves in the absence of a peace partner and with the approval of several Arab nations.  Palestinians have this one last opportunity to minimize that and get goodies.


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## Indeependent (Jan 30, 2020)

Shusha said:


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When Egypt gives some land to Hamas and Syria leaves Lebanon, I’ll be happy to discuss giving land to people who lost a war.


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## Shusha (Jan 30, 2020)

Indeependent said:


> Shusha said:
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For me, its not so much that they lost a war (actually a LOT of wars); its that they are incapable of giving up war and building something ... anything ... else.


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## Olde Europe (Jan 30, 2020)

There is really nothing else to say, and the last time I found myself to be as saddened over being in complete agreement with an author's take I cannot recall:

*Trump’s Peace Plan Is a Trojan Horse That Aims to Make Israeli Occupation Permanent*

With its glossy cover, talk of a two-state solution, and the promise of billions of dollars in investment, Trump’s peace plan is little more than a piece of political malware masquerading as a credible diplomatic initiative. The goal is not to bring about peace but to normalize the status quo, including Israel’s military rule over millions of Palestinians, and render it permanent.

Despite its talk of “compromises” on “both sides,” the plan satisfies a long list of right-wing Israeli demands on virtually all core issues in the conflict—from an undivided Jerusalem to annexing occupied territory to liquidating the rights of Palestinian refugees. Although the plan purports to be “realistic” and “fact-based,” it is mired in historical and political revisionism. [...]

The centerpiece of the plan is the creation of a so-called Palestinian state in roughly 70 percent of the West Bank but one that is shorn of any meaningful sovereignty. The roughly 120 or so Israeli settlements, along with the 650,000 Israeli settlers now living throughout the Israeli-occupied West Bank, would remain under permanent Israeli control, as would the entirety of the Jordan Valley—thus completely encircling the putative Palestinian state with annexed Israeli land. The Trump vision is in effect a recipe for indefinite Israeli occupation—a sort of Palestinian Bantustan surrounded by Israel and entirely at its mercy.

Palestine’s borders, airspace, territorial waters, and electromagnetic sphere would remain under Israel’s control, while its government would be stripped of the ability to enter into treaties. Territorial contiguity would be reserved for Israel and its settlements, while Palestinians would get only “transportation contiguity” through a “state-of-the-art” network of bridges, roads, and tunnels.

What’s more, the emergence of this encircled and disjointed Palestinian entity would itself be subject to numerous conditions, including an array of legal, political, fiscal, and security reforms, such as the disarming and pacification of Hamas in Gaza—with the ultimate decision on whether the conditions had been met left to Israel. *One of the more disturbing elements of the Trump plan includes a proposal to swap areas of Israel proper that are currently heavily populated by Palestinian citizens of Israel to the so-called Palestinian state—an idea championed by racial purists on Israel’s far-right, who seek to reduce the number of non-Jews living in Israel.*

Jerusalem, perhaps the most sensitive and contentious of all permanent status issues, would remain undivided and under permanent Israeli sovereignty. Palestinians would be allowed to set up a capital near (but notably not in) the city of Jerusalem, which “could be named Al-Quds or another name as determined by the State of Palestine.”

The plan also takes the issue of Palestinian refugees, including those who fled or were driven from their homes during Israel’s creation in 1948 and their descendants, off the table. While previous peace negotiations—including the Clinton Parameters of 2000 and the Annapolis negotiations of 2007-2008—provided for at least a symbolic return of some refugees, the Trump plan states rather explicitly that there would be “no right of return by, or absorption of, any Palestinian refugee into the State of Israel.” Instead, Palestinian refugees would choose integration in their current host countries, resettlement in third countries, or absorption in the newly created Palestinian entity.

*The chances that Palestinians would agree to negotiate on the basis of the Trump vision are nil.* Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas angrily dismissed the plan as a “conspiracy” that would eventually be relegated to the “the dustbin of history” while threatening to take the matter to the International Court of Justice.

*The plan may well have been designed to elicit a Palestinian “no,” which could then be used as pretext for Israeli annexation.* Indeed, within hours of the plan’s unveiling, Netanyahu announced that the process of extending Israeli sovereignty to areas not allocated to the Palestinian entity would be taken up by the Knesset, Israel’s parliament, within a matter of days. *Trump’s ambassador to Israel, David Friedman, was quick to offer unqualified support for any such annexation.*​
This is a catastrophe, and the initiation, the emboldening of a heinous crime, perpetrated under a threadbare veil of fake benevolence.  In reality, it is a "good job" done on the Palestinians, and, if initial reporting proves accurate, they are going to get it hard and fast.


----------



## Sunni Man (Jan 30, 2020)

Olde Europe said:


> There is really nothing else to say, and the last time I found myself to be as saddened over being in complete agreement with an author's take I cannot recall:
> 
> *Trump’s Peace Plan Is a Trojan Horse That Aims to Make Israeli Occupation Permanent*
> 
> ...


A bogus so called "Peace Plan" where the Palestinian's weren't given a seat at the negotiation table and all the terms are dictated to them by the U.S. and Israel.  ...


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (Jan 30, 2020)

Olde Europe said:


> There is really nothing else to say, and the last time I found myself to be as saddened over being in complete agreement with an author's take I cannot recall:
> 
> *Trump’s Peace Plan Is a Trojan Horse That Aims to Make Israeli Occupation Permanent*
> 
> ...



Did the Palestinians ever really want peace?  Tell us please why they rejected Olmert's offer 

Erekat: Olmert offered Abbas more than the entire West Bank


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (Jan 30, 2020)

The victory march will continue until the Palestinian flag flies in Jerusalem and in all of Palestine. Yasser Arafat Quotes - InspyreApp | Inspyre

PA officials: Jews have ‘no right to pray’ at Western Wall


   Lets see you rationalize it


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jan 30, 2020)

*Trump’s Peace Plan Is a Trojan Horse That Aims to Make Israeli Occupation Permanent*

As opposed to what? Going back to their pre-1967, indefensible borders? LOL!

* The roughly 120 or so Israeli settlements, along with the 650,000 Israeli settlers now living throughout the Israeli-occupied West Bank, would remain under permanent Israeli control, as would the entirety of the Jordan Valley—thus completely encircling the putative Palestinian state with annexed Israeli land. *

Yup.

*The Trump vision is in effect a recipe for indefinite Israeli occupation—a sort of Palestinian Bantustan surrounded by Israel and entirely at its mercy.*

Or they could have Bantustan with no state......like now.

*Palestine’s borders, airspace, territorial waters, and electromagnetic sphere would remain under Israel’s control, while its government would be stripped of the ability to enter into treaties.*

Losers can't be choosers.

*What’s more, the emergence of this encircled and disjointed Palestinian entity would itself be subject to numerous conditions, including an array of legal, political, fiscal, and security reforms, such as the disarming and pacification of Hamas in Gaza—*

Terrorism has consequences.

*The plan also takes the issue of Palestinian refugees, including those who fled or were driven from their homes during Israel’s creation in 1948 and their descendants, off the table. *

They won't move into Palestine?

*This is a catastrophe, and the initiation, the emboldening of a heinous crime,*

Yeah, that's the Palestinians, never missing an opportunity to miss an opportunity.


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (Jan 30, 2020)

Sunni Man said:


> Olde Europe said:
> 
> 
> > There is really nothing else to say, and the last time I found myself to be as saddened over being in complete agreement with an author's take I cannot recall:
> ...



   Palestinians weren't given a seat at the table?  Know when a Muslim lies? When he opens his mouth.    Abbas was invited; he wouldn't even take Trump's phone call


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jan 30, 2020)

Sunni Man said:


> Olde Europe said:
> 
> 
> > There is really nothing else to say, and the last time I found myself to be as saddened over being in complete agreement with an author's take I cannot recall:
> ...



*A bogus so called "Peace Plan" where the Palestinian's weren't given a seat at the negotiation table*

They've whined and rejected peace for 70+ years, why would they get a seat?


----------



## Sunni Man (Jan 30, 2020)

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> Abbas was invited; he wouldn't even take Trump's phone call


Abbas was invited to sign on to the so called Peace Plan "after" the U.S. and Israel had worked out the terms without any input from the Palestinians.   ...


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jan 30, 2020)

Sunni Man said:


> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> > Abbas was invited; he wouldn't even take Trump's phone call
> ...



Yup. Take it or leave it. Meanwhile, more settlements, less land for any future Pallie state.
Tick...tick...tick...


----------



## Olde Europe (Jan 30, 2020)

Sunni Man said:


> Abbas was invited to sign on to the so called Peace Plan "after" the U.S. and Israel had worked out the terms without any input from the Palestinians.   ...



To be a bit more precise, Abu Mazen terminated all contacts with the Trump administration subsequent to Trump recognizing Jerusalem as Israel's capital, thus prejudicing a major contentious issue among many making up the festering I/P-Conflict, rendering a negotiated solution to the conflict virtually impossible.

In short, it is patently preposterous to drive a nail into your opposite side's eye, and then "invite" him to "negotiate" what is preposterously dubbed a "peace deal".


----------



## Sunni Man (Jan 30, 2020)

The U.S. government claims to be a neutral 3rd party mediator in the Palestinian / Israeli conflict.

But in reality is 100% on Israel's side during any negotiations.  ..


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jan 30, 2020)

Sunni Man said:


> The U.S. government claims to be a neutral 3rd party mediator in the Palestinian / Israeli conflict.
> 
> But in reality is 100% on Israel's side during any negotiations.  ..



*But in reality is 100% on Israel's side during any negotiations. .*

Can you blame us? The Palestinians are awful.


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (Jan 30, 2020)

Sunni Man said:


> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> > Abbas was invited; he wouldn't even take Trump's phone call
> ...



Another Muslim lie. Abbas could have made his objections known prior to this day,      

 Please tell us why Abbas rejected Olmert Peace Plan and why just recently the PLO made a formal statement that Jews would not be permitted at the Western Wall


----------



## Coyote (Jan 30, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...



No.  It's also means of letting the people know the President has crossed a line.  And it isn't done lightly.  Despite what you seem to believe he is not an emperor, he can not just do what ever he wants.  He is accountable and it's a means of holding him accountable even if he isn't removed from office.

There are two processes:
Impeachment 
Removal from Office

Three presidents in US history have been impeached.  None removed.

It was formulated to be very difficult to remove a president and for good reason.  I agree with the fact it is difficult - it keeps it from being abused.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Jan 30, 2020)

Coyote said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


You are agreeing with me that it was just a political stunt.  Since impeachment is intended as the first step in removing a president and everyone knew from the start Trump would not be removed from office, the only purpose in impeaching him was to campaign against him as you just acknowledged, making it no more than a political stunt and an egregious abuse of power by the House Democrats.  You are agreeing with me in substance but you are saying it is ok for House Democrats to abuse their powers and misuse the impeachment process for political purposes.


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (Jan 30, 2020)

Sunni Man said:


> The juden are a very emotional people, and have trouble engaging in an adult debate without resorting to slinging invectives at their opponent.  ...



  The question “ Why didn’t Abbas accept Olmert’s offer” is not engaging in conversation?
  The Raghead doesn’t have an answer so he slings mud


----------



## Sunni Man (Jan 30, 2020)

Unlike you, I haven't been rude or called anyone names during this entire thread. ..


----------



## Coyote (Jan 30, 2020)

Shusha

I read through the first part (not the appendixes yet, and the economic development sales pitch).

There are parts I think are good:

Addressing the handling of crossings.

Demilitarization (for those that argue against it, I would put it in the context of how we handled Japan after WW2 - a combination of economic development aid and demilitarization so they wouldn't be a threat again).

The continued management of the Holy Sites.  I agree, Israel has done a good job there.  I would change one thing for sure though, not:  "Muslims who come in peace are welcome to pray here" but rather "ALL who come in peace are welcome to pray here".

Specifically addressing concerns that we don't need another failed state in the area, and what to do to prevent that.

Some parts are iffy:

The refugee situation and the fact that the new nation of Palestine (unlike Israel with it's Jewish refugees) can not freely choose to allow them to return - it is subject to Israel's oversight. I don't think that should be the case.  It is the right of a nation to choose who to allow citizenship to and who not to.

Tying to tie Gaza to the West Bank.  Culturally and politically they are different.  Tying them together hinders the West Bank in developing the institutions needed for success and means their outcome is dependent on Gaza's behavior.  Seems they are to be treated as two different regions with different plans.


Some parts are not, imo, workable or would be extremely challenging:

The borders.  Palestine is left with a "state" entirely dependent on Israel's good will.  Discontinous Palestinian territory peppered Israeli enclaves creating even more discontunuity.  What bothers me is that the solution is, repeatedly, state of the art crossings, bridges, etc etc.  All in all a LOT of building in order to accommodate the incredible discontinuity.  That means a lot of investment and maintenance while farmers, who can't even access parts of their land anymore, require hours to get around the security blocks just to reach the other end of their farm.  Who is going to pay for it all and pay to maintain it? (Maybe I missed that or it's in the appendices).

Viability. What makes for a viable state?  I read something a while back on this but I can't find it.  It was an article that listed characteristics that helped make a state viable or successful - it included access to ports, either rivers or ocean.  Looking a the map for the Palestinian state (WB only) it has NO direct access to the Jordan River, the Dead Sea, or the Mediterranean.  Promises of port access, special roads, and resorts and just that - promises and they can be as easily taken away as they are given.  When I looked up rivers in Israel (Google Maps) they seems to be almost nothing in the Palestinian area (assuming I am reading it right).   Lack of control over water resources makes a state extremely vulnerable.

Acknowledging the Palestinian's culture.  I think what bothers me a lot is that this almost reads like the total imposition of another (American) culture and values over the Palestinians.  It has a glitzy, salesman quality to it that seems to totally ignore the possibility that the Palestinians have their own culture, which may not be the same as ours.  Any plan that will work has to recognize this and work within the existing culture to affect reforms over time in those areas where reforms are really needed (corruption, human rights).  Imposing it, in the form of a "peace plan" is doomed to failure imo.

There is a heavy heavy dependence on yet-to-be-specified massive amounts of money.

And lastly, but most important - complete lack of any input from the Palestinians and more, a seeming lack of interest for input from the Palestinians.  And I think that is important.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 30, 2020)

*Children - get on topic please, stop squabbling or take it to the FZ.*


----------



## Shusha (Jan 30, 2020)

Olde Europe said:


> ...while its government would be stripped of the ability to enter into treaties.​




Has anyone got a page number on this one?
​


----------



## Shusha (Jan 30, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Some parts are iffy:
> 
> The refugee situation and the fact that the new nation of Palestine (unlike Israel with it's Jewish refugees) can not freely choose to allow them to return - it is subject to Israel's oversight. I don't think that should be the case.  It is the right of a nation to choose who to allow citizenship to and who not to.



I agree with you that this is a tricky issue.  On the one hand, its a valid point that Israel's security should be front and center on the issue.  It serves no one to flood a newborn Palestine with hostile ISIS members.  On the other hand, yes, sovereign States must have the right to determine their own immigration criteria.  Still, its a JOINT committee, so there is that. If I was negotiating this, I would put a time limit on it.  I don't know, maybe a generation?  25 years?



> Tying to tie Gaza to the West Bank.  Culturally and politically they are different.  Tying them together hinders the West Bank in developing the institutions needed for success and means their outcome is dependent on Gaza's behavior.  Seems they are to be treated as two different regions with different plans.



Yep.  I'd be down for this.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 30, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Some parts are iffy:
> ...



That might work, a sunset clause?


----------



## Shusha (Jan 30, 2020)

Coyote said:


> The borders.  Palestine is left with a "state" entirely dependent on Israel's good will.  Discontinous Palestinian territory peppered Israeli enclaves creating even more discontunuity.  What bothers me is that the solution is, repeatedly, state of the art crossings, bridges, etc etc.  All in all a LOT of building in order to accommodate the incredible discontinuity.  That means a lot of investment and maintenance while farmers, who can't even access parts of their land anymore, require hours to get around the security blocks just to reach the other end of their farm.  Who is going to pay for it all and pay to maintain it? (Maybe I missed that or it's in the appendices).



I think this is a creative and viable solution to a very prickly problem.  It offers freedom of movement to both Israelis and Palestinians, entirely within their own state, without having to cross into the other state.  

But bring me your offers, then.  What would you suggest as an alternative?  Forced expulsion of populations?  Forcing Palestine to accept hundreds of thousands of Israelis (who would become Palestinians)?  How would you protect the Jewish population of Palestine in that case?  



> Viability. What makes for a viable state?  I read something a while back on this but I can't find it.  It was an article that listed characteristics that helped make a state viable or successful - it included access to ports, either rivers or ocean.  Looking a the map for the Palestinian state (WB only) it has NO direct access to the Jordan River, the Dead Sea, or the Mediterranean.  Promises of port access, special roads, and resorts and just that - promises and they can be as easily taken away as they are given.  When I looked up rivers in Israel (Google Maps) they seems to be almost nothing in the Palestinian area (assuming I am reading it right).   Lack of control over water resources makes a state extremely vulnerable.



Well, the plan covers a joined Palestine, so they would have access to a port.  If we were going to change that, we could always give WB a tunnel or road to a port.  Why not?

Lack of water resources make lots of states vulnerable.  No different than dozens of other states.  Palestine will have to deal with it the way those others deal with it.  Good trade relations, technology, etc.  



> Acknowledging the Palestinian's culture.  I think what bothers me a lot is that this almost reads like the total imposition of another (American) culture and values over the Palestinians.  It has a glitzy, salesman quality to it that seems to totally ignore the possibility that the Palestinians have their own culture, which may not be the same as ours.


This would have to be addressed in some sort of counter-offer.  What would you suggest?



> Any plan that will work has to recognize this and work within the existing culture to affect reforms over time in those areas where reforms are really needed (corruption, human rights).  Imposing it, in the form of a "peace plan" is doomed to failure imo.


That is on the Palestinians to achieve.  They can only be given so much of a leg-up.



> There is a heavy heavy dependence on yet-to-be-specified massive amounts of money.


Palestinians are the receipients of the largest amounts financial aid ever in history.  Let's put the money towards progress and peace.  



> And lastly, but most important - complete lack of any input from the Palestinians and more, a seeming lack of interest for input from the Palestinians.  And I think that is important.


The opportunity for input is happening right now.  Let's see if they take it up.  (I am not hopeful).




> promises and they can be as easily taken away as they are given


Yeah.  Israel learned that with Gaza.  

What we are discussing here is a Peace Agreement.  Peace Agreements signed by the Parties concerned are the CORNERSTONE of modern relations between States.  You are attempting to say here that Israel can't really be trusted. The implication that Israel will unilaterally and arbitrarily break Treaties made in good faith with a real partner for peace is a vile accusation playing off the "unique evil" trope.


----------



## Shusha (Jan 30, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...




Seems reasonable.  I mean, if Arab Palestine is going to take up an offer of peace, it serves them ill nearly as much as Israel to have ISIS or other extremist groups using their country for a base.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 30, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Agree.  Annexation, IMO, was always in their plans, based on their strategy of shifting the demographics to make it more favorable, this just officially opens the door for them.
> ...





Shusha said:


> I disagree annexation was "always" in Israel's plans. Annexation became part of the necessary conversation about 10-12 years ago as a result of the Arab Palestinian response to Israeli disengagement in Gaza.


Israel has been annexing land to build settlements since 1948.


----------



## rylah (Jan 30, 2020)

Ok, I've the reading Vision.
Principally I reject any national determination in any land allotted for Jewish sovereignty, and especially Judea, other than that of Israel.

For the vote, because intuitively something still holds me from apparently voting "no", I'll make a conditional compromise, and test it according to proportion between the dangers and the gains from agreeing to taking part in the plan ( as if accepted without changes due to negotiations) as it is.
I need some time to weigh it out.

Now skipping analysis, and I've tried playing different scenarios - without being naive about both parties, and the most objective thing I can say, is for both of them, the smartest thing is to cease the opportunity and improvise later.

Even if none take the end goals seriously, there's so much to grab to bring immediate improvement,
while in the stage of negotiations which takes years, especially for the Arabs, big packages of candies on each stage of development.

There's a big political obstacle here, way bigger than the one in Israel, that is too evident on the Arab side. Namely, Abbas is unlikely to end his career in agreement to such a deal, and he certainly doesn't want to get murdered for which there will be much legitimacy on the street. All the while the US denied Hamas and others except the PA while forwarding definite conditions under which it can be beneficiary or part to the plan.

So I said 'skipping analysis', I'm just saying all these suggest the US has additional political bets in the PA for the nearest future, probably in coordination with Arab League states.

(To conclude )

- on the top of it Oslo was recognition of PLO which was Israel's self-defeat,
the Trump Deal is about 'end of all claims'... What is left is to weigh out what between those two.
That again, if I can abandon all ideology, and go strictly cold pragmatism.

*How can someone sign an end to Israel's claim in Judea, I frankly cannot comprehend!*

Who would want this on his name, as the peak of political career?!

But again, I need to review this from a strategic perspective, so still give it the benefit of the doubt.
So I probably best enjoy Shabat, and have a better perspective on this with a fresh mind next week.






In the meantime, there were several things positive and negative, that caught my attention, that I think worth a discussion on its own (as many of the programs), so if anyone wants to discuss specifically...:

1. Prayer on the Temple Mount
2. Enclaves
3. Triangle territory exchange
4. Gaza-WB oil/gas rig
5. Investment in neighbors
6. 2 new cities in Negev
7. Demilitarized no Hamas and "Jihad on Jihad"
8. Dead Sea resort
9 .Tourism 3 countries.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 30, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > The borders.  Palestine is left with a "state" entirely dependent on Israel's good will.  Discontinous Palestinian territory peppered Israeli enclaves creating even more discontunuity.  What bothers me is that the solution is, repeatedly, state of the art crossings, bridges, etc etc.  All in all a LOT of building in order to accommodate the incredible discontinuity.  That means a lot of investment and maintenance while farmers, who can't even access parts of their land anymore, require hours to get around the security blocks just to reach the other end of their farm.  Who is going to pay for it all and pay to maintain it? (Maybe I missed that or it's in the appendices).
> ...



I'm really not sure,  but it would not be forced expulsions.  At one point though you had suggested that Jewish enclaves in Palestininan areas would remain in Palestine and Arab enclaves in Israeli areas would remain in Israel, they could choose to retain their citizenship or take a new citizenship but would not be forced to move. Is that off the table?



> > Viability. What makes for a viable state?  I read something a while back on this but I can't find it.  It was an article that listed characteristics that helped make a state viable or successful - it included access to ports, either rivers or ocean.  Looking a the map for the Palestinian state (WB only) it has NO direct access to the Jordan River, the Dead Sea, or the Mediterranean.  Promises of port access, special roads, and resorts and just that - promises and they can be as easily taken away as they are given.  When I looked up rivers in Israel (Google Maps) they seems to be almost nothing in the Palestinian area (assuming I am reading it right).   Lack of control over water resources makes a state extremely vulnerable.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Actually yes different from other states in that it is completely surrounded by another state who can control access to other nations, water resources, ports.  I'm just curious not give them direct access at some point of the Jordan river or the Dead Sea?  Why not allow them a  bit of border with Jordan?



> > Acknowledging the Palestinian's culture.  I think what bothers me a lot is that this almost reads like the total imposition of another (American) culture and values over the Palestinians.  It has a glitzy, salesman quality to it that seems to totally ignore the possibility that the Palestinians have their own culture, which may not be the same as ours.
> 
> 
> This would have to be addressed in some sort of counter-offer.  What would you suggest?



I don't think it would be addressed in a counter offer because the ENTIRE plan almost is based on placing a whole new culture over the Palestinian one.  For example, a requirement for western style financial institutions yet - suppose what they, as a culture prefer, is Sharia compliant financial systems?  When I'm reading this plan, I'm seeing a very Americanized idea of what Palestine should be.  Some good, some comes off with a "we know what's best for you" almost colonialist attitude.  I would feel more comfortable if there was Palestinian input - doesn't have to be leadership, but Palestinians who would be effected and who would have to make it work.  



> > Any plan that will work has to recognize this and work within the existing culture to affect reforms over time in those areas where reforms are really needed (corruption, human rights).  Imposing it, in the form of a "peace plan" is doomed to failure imo.
> 
> 
> That is on the Palestinians to achieve.  They can only be given so much of a leg-up.



It's not about a leg up.



> > There is a heavy heavy dependence on yet-to-be-specified massive amounts of money.
> 
> 
> Palestinians are the receipients of the largest amounts financial aid ever in history.  Let's put the money towards progress and peace.
> ...



No.  The opportunity for input is not happening.  It's presented to them as fully baked.  That's it.  

Imagine if Trump unilaterally declared Jerusalem to be the capital of Palestine.

And unilaterally cancelled all aid to Israel.

And closed Israel's embassy in the US.

Then Kushner got together with Abbas, and other Arab states and formulated a Peace Plan and Economic Development plan for Israel and Palestine.

Then presented it to Israel as a "take it or leave it" (and imply that the Jews are morons who don't know what's good for them).

That would go over well wouldn't it?  That would really get them to the negotiating table right?



> > promises and they can be as easily taken away as they are given
> 
> 
> Yeah.  Israel learned that with Gaza.
> ...



No.  There is no "unique evil" trope so quit throwing that out!  It's a reality.  It happens.  My own country walked out of two major international agreements - just. like that.  ANY country has to take into account it's own security and the security and well being of its citizens. Why would Palestine be any different?  The more points of dependence there are on other countries for basic needs, economy, and resources the more vulnerable they are if that country chose to leave the agreement or act putatively.

Why do you expect Palestine to be different than other countries in what they need?


----------



## rylah (Jan 30, 2020)

Sunni Man said:


> Olde Europe said:
> 
> 
> > There is really nothing else to say, and the last time I found myself to be as saddened over being in complete agreement with an author's take I cannot recall:
> ...





Sunni Man said:


> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> > Abbas was invited; he wouldn't even take Trump's phone call
> ...



This is simply not true.
Neither have you actually read it.


----------



## rylah (Jan 30, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Nothing that international law didn't vest with the sovereignty of the Jewish nation.
Remind you we discuss 2020, stay on topic.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jan 30, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Annexing the shit out of it.
Hurry up, Palestine is only gonna get smaller...…..


----------



## rylah (Jan 30, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



These are not real problems.
Neither the terms you use contradict those of the various programs in the plan, which are specifically modeled after successful Arab League countries.

Also...I know, I know...but Switzerland comes to mind...


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (Jan 30, 2020)

rylah said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Olde Europe said:
> ...




   Sorry, but he even refused Trump's phone call .  Forgetting Jerusalem for a minute, knowing that Trump wouldn't demand " Right of Return" would be enough for him to reject any calls 

Palestine’s Abbas refuses to take calls from US’ Trump


----------



## rylah (Jan 30, 2020)

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



Yes, but not what Sunni said.
That's just one of those ridiculous lies.


----------



## Shusha (Jan 30, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



I will probably have a longer answer in a bit, but short answer:

I agree with rylah. These are not real problems.


----------



## Shusha (Jan 30, 2020)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



Yes and remember that Israel is NOT annexing any territory. Israel’s claim (and it’s correct) is that she has legal title to that territory. It is not an annexation. It’s applying sovereignty.


----------



## Shusha (Jan 30, 2020)

flacaltenn brings up an extremely relevant point (on the other thread). 

In the absence of a fully functioning government in Palestine, and given Abbas’ age, can we credibly our faith in government continuity and adherence to any potential Peace Treaty?  Assuming an unlikely acceptance.


----------



## flacaltenn (Jan 30, 2020)

Shusha said:


> flacaltenn brings up an extremely relevant point (on the other thread).
> 
> In the absence of a fully functioning government in Palestine, and given Abbas’ age, can we credibly our faith in government continuity and adherence to any potential Peace Treaty?  Assuming an unlikely acceptance.



Of course you can't.. NO PLAN can proceed without a delegation of representatives that come from a STABLE process of selection.. It's all irrelevant if that can't happen...  

We made too big a deal about "National Elections".. Pushed the Palis into a Civil War by doing so.. Even when ISRAEL was telling the US it was not TIME for elections, our political calendar said it was.. And it destroyed the PA by exposing the weaknesses in SUPPORT for a "powerful central govt"... 

At THIS TIME -- the best way to GET stable and PRESCRIBED Pali leadership might be to just accept the top officials from each of the 5 or 6 biggest Pali cities and ACCEPT THEM as representative..  The local scale politics is more representative of the whole of Pali opinion anyways...


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## flacaltenn (Jan 30, 2020)

But Hamas in Gaza is just gonna have to make it's own deal.. Fatah and the PA want nothing to do with them..


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## flacaltenn (Jan 31, 2020)

Tommy Tainant said:


> The deal of the century has certainly brought people together. Fatah and Hamas were in meetings whilst trump was lauding his impeachment deflection .



Maybe they're just talking about taking the band out on tour again..  You know, stop fighting and assassinating each other and take the peace gigue seriously..


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## Mindful (Jan 31, 2020)

Trump’s Mideast plan,” Yeni Şafak, January 29, 2020:

Turkish demonstrators poured onto streets across the country on Tuesday to protest U.S. President Donald Trump’s long-awaited Middle East peace plan, which imposes strict conditions for Palestinians but grants broad control to the Israeli government.

Dozens of protesters and members of non-governmental organizations gathered in front of the U.S. Consulate in Istanbul, holding placards and shouting slogans decrying the proposal that designates Jerusalem as “Israel’s undivided capital.”

Many protesters at the rally held placards bearing slogans reading, “Jerusalem belongs to Islam.”


----------



## Mindful (Jan 31, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



I thought about what you said; and if all what you say comes to pass, there is still the issue of the Hezbollah enclave in Southern Lebanon, and the tunnels they use to attack Israel. Will that ever stop?


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (Jan 31, 2020)

Sunni Man said:


> Unlike you, I haven't been rude or called anyone names during this entire thread. ..



Deflection. Just answer the question. You can’t or won’t


----------



## Coyote (Jan 31, 2020)

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



Switzerland is not entirely surrounded by one country, it is bordered by France, Italy and Germany, giving it multiple opportunities if one should sour.  It also contains many rivers.  Water has become a contentious resource in many parts of the world.


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## Coyote (Jan 31, 2020)

flacaltenn said:


> But Hamas in Gaza is just gonna have to make it's own deal.. Fatah and the PA want nothing to do with them..


That is why, in any deal, I think Gaza and WB should be dealt with separately.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 31, 2020)

flacaltenn said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn brings up an extremely relevant point (on the other thread).
> ...



That and the lack of inclusion from any Palestinians is a big weakness imo.


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## Sunni Man (Jan 31, 2020)

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> Deflection. Just answer the question. You can’t or won’t


What was the question?  ...


----------



## Olde Europe (Jan 31, 2020)

Coyote said:


> That is why, in any deal, I think Gaza and WB should be dealt with separately.



What language: "dealt with".  Shouldn't Palestinians have some input on that?


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## Natural Citizen (Jan 31, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Regarding this:  _As usual, you have misrepresented the facts.  The Palestinians weren't excluded from participation in drawing up the plan, they simply refused to participate.
> _
> Did Jared Kushner have any talks with the Palestinians?  Did he attempt any talks while formulating this? I don't think he did. He hashed it out first with Israel...no Palestinian invite. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't remember reading anything about Palestinians being invited 0 only Jared trotting off to Israel.
> 
> ...



Agreed, but there's more to it, which hasn't been touched on. One of the reasons actual reporting links should be included in the op versus what the op wants or doesn't want. Most independent reporting over there is in disagreement with it. Three mods in this thread, btw. You're basically handing foreign agents a free platform to set the terms of controversy in their own interests to dictate the questions as well as rules for discussion.

Anyway...relevant reporting from a deeper perspective...


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## M14 Shooter (Jan 31, 2020)

Olde Europe said:


> *Trump’s Peace Plan Is a Trojan Horse That Aims to Make Israeli Occupation Permanent*​



False premise.
Jordan ceded the West Bank to Israel in 1994 - Israel cannot "occupy" its own land.


​


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jan 31, 2020)

M14 Shooter said:


> Olde Europe said:
> 
> 
> > *Trump’s Peace Plan Is a Trojan Horse That Aims to Make Israeli Occupation Permanent*​
> ...



Actually, Jordan gave up all ties to the West Bank in 1988, but not to anybody.  In the 1994 peace treaty between Israel and Jordan, Israel ceded a tiny stretch of land (a small island, I think) to Jordan.


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## M14 Shooter (Jan 31, 2020)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> M14 Shooter said:
> 
> 
> > Olde Europe said:
> ...


The 1994 treaty placed the Israel/Jordan border at the river Jordan (and points south), thus ceding all of the territory west of the river to Israel.


----------



## MJB12741 (Jan 31, 2020)

M14 Shooter said:


> Olde Europe said:
> 
> 
> > *Trump’s Peace Plan Is a Trojan Horse That Aims to Make Israeli Occupation Permanent*​
> ...



And a wise move that was by Jordan to dump their Palestinians on Israel to deal with.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jan 31, 2020)

Natural Citizen said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Regarding this:  _As usual, you have misrepresented the facts.  The Palestinians weren't excluded from participation in drawing up the plan, they simply refused to participate.
> ...



OMG, you actually read Electronic Intifada, much less take it seriously?


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jan 31, 2020)

MJB12741 said:


> M14 Shooter said:
> 
> 
> > Olde Europe said:
> ...



Well, Jordan IS Palestinian ethnically.


----------



## Shusha (Jan 31, 2020)

M14 Shooter said:


> Olde Europe said:
> 
> 
> > *Trump’s Peace Plan Is a Trojan Horse That Aims to Make Israeli Occupation Permanent*​
> ...



False premise. Jordan didn’t cede territory to Israel. It wasn’t Jordan’s to cede. Jordan tried to take territory by force (which we all know is a no-no). It didn’t work. Jordan eventually abandoned the territory and it was restored to its legal sovereign— Israel.


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## M14 Shooter (Jan 31, 2020)

MJB12741 said:


> M14 Shooter said:
> 
> 
> > Olde Europe said:
> ...


They --were-- Jordanians.   Jordan stripped them of their citizenship and abandoned them.
Yet, they hate Israel,
Huh.


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## Coyote (Jan 31, 2020)

Olde Europe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > That is why, in any deal, I think Gaza and WB should be dealt with separately.
> ...


Yes they should. But Gaza and WB should be negotiated separately imo.


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## M14 Shooter (Jan 31, 2020)

Shusha said:


> M14 Shooter said:
> 
> 
> > Olde Europe said:
> ...


Indeed it was - Jordan annexed the WB in 1950 - granted the people there citizenship and voting rights and representation and everything.
It then ceded the land to Israel.


----------



## Shusha (Jan 31, 2020)

M14 Shooter said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > M14 Shooter said:
> ...



I disagree.  Jordan's sovereignty over the territory was not legal and was not recognized.  Nor was the language used in the disengagement and the Peace Treaty one of "Jordan cedes this territory to the State of Israel".  The term "cede" has a very specific meaning, IMO.  And it was quite clear that Jordan abandoned claims to the territory with the intent to make the territory available for Arab Palestinian self-determination (see the 31 July 1988 address to the nation King Hussein).

This is not to say that Israel is not legal sovereign over that territory.  She is.  

Anyway, legal language quibbles.  Back to the subject of the thread.


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## M14 Shooter (Jan 31, 2020)

Shusha said:


> M14 Shooter said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


You opinion on the matter does not alter the facts.


> Nor was the language used in the disengagement and the Peace Treaty one of "Jordan cedes this territory to the State of Israel".


The movement of the Israeli/Jordanian border form the west edge of the West Bank territory to the Jordan river cannot be taken as anything other than a cession of Jordanian territory to Israel - when borders move land is, necessarily, ceded.


----------



## Shusha (Jan 31, 2020)

M14 Shooter said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > M14 Shooter said:
> ...



There was never any other border between Israel and Jordan than the Jordan River.  Jordan tried to take territory outside its international borders by force.  It failed to do so.  And eventually retreated, abandoning the territory to its rightful sovereign.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jan 31, 2020)

Shusha said:


> M14 Shooter said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


From 1950 to 1967, in every respect, the WB was part of Jordan, and the border between Jordan and Israel was the western edge of the WB territory.


----------



## Shusha (Jan 31, 2020)

Coyote said:


> I'm really not sure,  but it would not be forced expulsions.  At one point though you had suggested that Jewish enclaves in Palestininan areas would remain in Palestine and Arab enclaves in Israeli areas would remain in Israel, they could choose to retain their citizenship or take a new citizenship but would not be forced to move. Is that off the table?
> 
> Actually yes different from other states in that it is completely surrounded by another state who can control access to other nations, water resources, ports.  I'm just curious not give them direct access at some point of the Jordan river or the Dead Sea?  Why not allow them a  bit of border with Jordan?
> 
> ...



Other than the first two paragraphs, which are simply practical problems needing practical and easily negotiated solutions, any number of which would do, the rest of this is just arguing for the sake of arguing.

These are not real problems.

These are simply excuses not to come to the table to negotiate.  It would be appalling for Palestine not to work towards its future as a sovereign State because the Framework wasn't Arab-flavoured enough or the invitation to the party came on gold paper instead of silver. 

The Palestinians need to start looking at practical solutions to the conflict and not play this game.  There is nothing substantially wrong with this Vision.  Its good for everyone. 




(And there are sovereign States completely surrounded by other States.)


----------



## Shusha (Jan 31, 2020)

M14 Shooter said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > M14 Shooter said:
> ...



I'm not quibbling that.  Jordan did very effectively occupy Israeli territory from 1948 to 1967.  Sovereignty did not legally change hands.  You can't cede someone their own sovereign territory.


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## Indeependent (Jan 31, 2020)

Why would any West Bank Jordanian want Arab leadership when they receive gainful employment from Israel?


----------



## Olde Europe (Jan 31, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Olde Europe said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



I find this to be an error in judgment.  The reason for that is simple, and the recent history with Palestinian history governments demonstrates it conclusively: Palestinians are overwhelmingly for a united Palestine.  Conversely, separate agreements would be lacking in legitimacy.  Moreover, insisting on negotiating the two parts separately would doom every effort at negotiation before it even starts.  No Palestinian could be seen sitting down for that without losing any standing with the overwhelming majority of Palestinians.  In effect, it is the old divide et impera strategy pursued by Israel since at least Hamas won the Gaza elections, which is particularly galling, or ironic, as the case may be, since Hamas was founded with Israeli help to undermine Fatah.

That's my argument.  What's yours?


----------



## flacaltenn (Jan 31, 2020)

Coyote said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...




I really don't MIND all the innovative economic visions and bribes in the deal.. I think along the same lines of just not "DIVIDING A MAP", but DEVELOPING that map optimumly for all.. Which means (in my case) free and unfettered trade for all and prosperity.. You blow any peace plan when you start with dividing up land and map.
*
Land is just land..  Why not have the Egyptians and Jordanians kick in some nice chunks of land ADJACENT to the WBand/Gaza???  VOILA -- MORE LAND..*.  And then CONNECT it all?  Brilliant huh? Not something just ISRAEL is expected to solve by their lonesomes..


The West Bank has 2.5 million people 80% of them in large cities.. They are NOT all farmers or grazers.. And they NEED development of CONNECTIVITY more than they need Americas 5G Cell service or other sparkly trinkets..  So the map to me is secondary to providing a higher standard of living and peace and autonomy for the VAST MAJORITY of folks in the disputed area..

Too much focus and over-design of "features" in the Trump plan.. And not enough on PROMOTING a comfortable, workable system of govt that GIVES them representation to negotiate --- AND the connectivity that will make the entire NEIGHBORHOOD of countries capable of caring for their population...


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Jan 31, 2020)

Mindful said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Mindful said:
> ...


I doubt very much the Palestinians will meet the requirements of the Plan, but even if they did, it would have nothing to do with Hezbollah.  Hezbollah is entirely an Iranian asset and will continue to do whatever seems to be in Iran's interests.


----------



## Hollie (Jan 31, 2020)

flacaltenn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



I see where you’re going with the above but I have a few unsolicited opinions. 

I don’t see the incentive for the Egyptians and Jordanians to cede territory to the Pals. Both Egypt and Jordan have / had have border conflicts and an attempted coup instigated by the Pals. I don’t see why either of those nations would feel they have a compelling self-interest to annex territory to a hostile entity. Egypt, in particular, might see their interests compromised by ceding territory that would put Shia Iran and it’s interests even closer.


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## flacaltenn (Jan 31, 2020)

Hollie said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Simple Hollie.. Because they're wasting national resources and getting bad press for the camps and detainment and refugee services to over 300,000 Palestinians in Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon... 

If you create a Palestine zone of commerce that INCLUDES those 3 countries, they could close their camps, reuse that land and swap it for border land near the WB, Gaza...  Palis could be reconnected thru multi-national cooperation in their freedom to travel and work back and forth..  BETTER environment for the Palis in those 3 Arab countries.. And their host countries don't have a "refugee expat" problem anymore.. They would BE Palestinians in some Federation of Palestine....


----------



## Coyote (Jan 31, 2020)

I remember ages ago, a course I took that discussed the evolution of nations...from tribes to city states to nation states.  Maybe it is time to revisit the idea of city states.


----------



## Coyote (Jan 31, 2020)

flacaltenn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



This part, can you expand on it?  
My feeling on the Trump plan(and yes it is feelings) is there is a lot of a sales pitch reminiscent of a land developer.  I do like the economic development emphasis but there is too much dependence on vague promises of lots of money.


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## Coyote (Jan 31, 2020)

Olde Europe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Olde Europe said:
> ...



I wonder...how united are they really?  For one, they ruled by different political regimes, for another, they often seem to poll very differently.

Do you have any actual data to support what you say?  I am curious.


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## Olde Europe (Jan 31, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Olde Europe said:
> 
> 
> > I find this to be an error in judgment.  The reason for that is simple, and the recent history with Palestinian history governments demonstrates it conclusively: Palestinians are overwhelmingly for a united Palestine.  Conversely, separate agreements would be lacking in legitimacy.  Moreover, insisting on negotiating the two parts separately would doom every effort at negotiation before it even starts.  No Palestinian could be seen sitting down for that without losing any standing with the overwhelming majority of Palestinians.  In effect, it is the old divide et impera strategy pursued by Israel since at least Hamas won the Gaza elections, which is particularly galling, or ironic, as the case may be, since Hamas was founded with Israeli help to undermine Fatah.
> ...



First, let me correct myself. The start of the paragraph above should have read, "I find this to be an error in judgment.  The reason for that is simple, and the recent history with Palestinian unity governments demonstrates it conclusively."  I've been sloppy.

There has been reporting on that over the last two decades to the effect of what I am proposing.  They are ruled by different "regimes" because Fatah managed to suppress the Hamas vote in the West Bank.  Had there been some more recent, fair voting, my reading suggests Hamas would probably rule, or would have at some time or other ruled, the West Bank.  Ultimately, you can see where Palestinians stand derived from the fact that Hamas and Fatah endlessly tried to work out a unity government, even though they probably preferred to eat the respective other faction for breakfast, alive, if at all possible.  What would be the incentive for them to form such a government, when one regarded the other as religious nutcases, or corrupt, self-serving thieves and crooks, respectively?  Easy enough to see, they'd both lose support unless they go along with the population's preferences.  Strong preferences, that is.  They may very well poll very differently, as do, say New Yorkers and Texans.  Try to divide the two, and what do you think you'll find?

Google something like "Palestine unity government", and you find plenty, for instance:

Though it is not yet clear how — or even if — it will be implemented, the agreement is a major breakthrough for the Palestinians, whose four-year split has paralyzed domestic politics, hindered peace efforts, and demoralized ordinary Palestinians. Notwithstanding the humiliation inflicted by Israel’s occupation, the self-inflicted nature of the Palestinian division was a source of intense collective shame. At a time when the United States is calling on Arab governments to be more responsive to the demands of their people, U.S. opposition to national unity, which has been a central demand of the Palestinian people for many years, would send all of the wrong messages to the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab world.​
Anyway, let's take a step back: There will be no solution unless both Israelis and Palestinians, by their overwhelming majority find the settlement fair, and agree.  There will be no solution if the process of resolving issues starts out wrong, for any reason whatsoever, and, in particular, if Palestinians in one part or the other feel rejected, either in their identity or due to their political preferences.  There will be no solution if a precondition for it is to divide Palestinians against themselves.  Which is exactly what the Trump Plan is doing, BTW.


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## flacaltenn (Jan 31, 2020)

Olde Europe said:


> Palestinians are overwhelmingly for a united Palestine. Conversely, separate agreements would be lacking in legitimacy. Moreover, insisting on negotiating the two parts separately would doom every effort at negotiation before it even starts.



Can't believe HOW damn wrong you are on this..  I can't fix that. And I'm not gonna pile links up you to PROVE that the PA and Hamas in Gaza has been in a state of Cold War SINCE the HOT CIVIL WAR they fought over Gaza.  That's what?? 15 years now?  MULTIPLE attempts to talk.. All broken agreements. The ASSASSINATIONS on both sides... And more importantly, the de factor EMBARGO on Gaza that the PA (who controls the bulk of Intl aid) has IMPOSED on Gaza... 

Go educate yourself and come back... 

Here's a clue... 

Hamas executes suspected Fatah traitors in Gaza


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## Olde Europe (Jan 31, 2020)

flacaltenn said:


> Olde Europe said:
> 
> 
> > Palestinians are overwhelmingly for a united Palestine. Conversely, separate agreements would be lacking in legitimacy. Moreover, insisting on negotiating the two parts separately would doom every effort at negotiation before it even starts.
> ...



Read my texts as often as necessary for you to understand them.


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## flacaltenn (Jan 31, 2020)

Coyote said:


> I remember ages ago, a course I took that discussed the evolution of nations...from tribes to city states to nation states.  Maybe it is time to revisit the idea of city states.



Right, THe city states of LA, San Fran and San Diego could float in a sea of red around them and do ANYTHING they damn well want to do with no constitution, opposition parties, or law precedents to stop them...


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## flacaltenn (Jan 31, 2020)

Olde Europe said:


> political preferences. There will be no solution if a precondition for it is to divide Palestinians against themselves.



They've done a damn good job of dividing themselves by their lonesome selves..  I'm more interesting in a form of govt for Palestine that doesn't DEMAND the people have a strong central NATIONAL govt at all... THAT is the centuries old Arab preferencce for governance in that region.. And by us DEMANDING that they be as miserable as WE ARE in the USA with our HUGELY POWERFUL central govt being corrupt and fractured, we're FORCING them to produce representation that somehow is gonna quickly "kiss and make-up" and form a UNITY anything... 

And I have convinced myself that there are BETTER systems for a design model of Palestine... 

Support for Abbas is low... Support for the PA is lower..  Time to find a better accommodation...


----------



## Mindful (Feb 1, 2020)

U.S. President Donald Trump’s Middle East “deal of the century” offers the Palestinians a state. They have rejected it and threatened instead to ramp up violence against Israel.

No one can be surprised. They have rejected every offer of a state previously made to them in 1937, 1947, 2000, 2008 and 2014.

So is this latest deal anything more than Groundhog Day for the Middle East all over again? Yes, because this isn’t a deal. It’s an ultimatum.

Israel intends to enact its part in the plan unilaterally by declaring sovereignty over the Israeli settlement blocs and the Jordan Valley. The big change is that, despite the subsequent crossed wires over timing, the United States will accept this.

That’s because this isn’t a “peace process” in which both sides must progress in tandem with each other — a process that gave the Palestinians an effective veto even while they continued to wage their war of extermination against Israel.

For the first time, here’s an American plan that puts the security of Israel first and foremost. It’s therefore the first time that the United States has unequivocally supported Israel’s future existence.

The Palestinians' bluff has been called. Over to you, world | MelaniePhillips.com


----------



## rylah (Feb 1, 2020)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



I didn't say it was the same.
Bot no port and real army and look.

Neither in this case it is surrounded entirely by one country, look at the map, it's obvious,
read what it says.

Look most countries lack contentious resources, others degrade in spite vast natural wealth. That's exactly the challenges functional governments are supposed to address responsibly, which is not a function of the rejectionist state of mind.


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## flacaltenn (Feb 1, 2020)

Mindful said:


> U.S. President Donald Trump’s Middle East “deal of the century” offers the Palestinians a state. They have rejected it and threatened instead to ramp up violence against Israel.
> 
> No one can be surprised. They have rejected every offer of a state previously made to them in 1937, 1947, 2000, 2008 and 2014.
> 
> ...



It's not really a "bluff".. THey are not united enough to respond.. And we keep pushing them towards "national" elections and a top heavy national political system.. Funny thing is that Arabs may value their freedom from "nation states" a lot more than we do...

They have THOUSANDS of years of existence without organizing any strong nation states (since the Egyptian dynasties or other example farther back)  as their inheritance..

They've been occupied and trampled over for all of the last 2000 years by Empires or Crusades from religious wars..

They only instituted nation states as a means to kick out foreign empires and interference.

And they KNOW the sordid history of "strong man" nation states in the region discriminating against and even torturing the "tribes not in power"...

We're asking them to put their representation on the field.. They feel the field is theirs and don't see a NEED to elect "national leadership"..  THEREFORE, if the world is gonna FIND their representation amongst them, my view is -- *we best VIEW their CHOICE of govt as more of an "Emirates" model and talk to the leaders of the cities where 80% of the Palis live... *

NOT Hamas or Fatah.. Maybe to some extent listen to the PA that hasn't held a national election for over a decade, and quit fooling ourselves that the "table is set" for talks.. Any PRESSURE to do that will produce another "Jew free Gaza" debacle and perhaps another war amongst them...

Can't even START a meaningful "peace process" until there's legitimate and STABLE representation from the Pali side..


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## flacaltenn (Feb 1, 2020)

Mindful said:


> No one can be surprised. They have rejected every offer of a state previously made to them in 1937, 1947, 2000, 2008 and 2014.



Many of those "rejections" came from Yasser Araffat and other self-appointed officials who had no skin in game.. Didn't have to RUN or administer anything in Palestine.. Again,

The representation must be there EVEN IF it's not thru "national elections" but STILL an accurate sample of the folks that NOW RUN "palestine in occupation"..

And

You CANNOT START with a map on the table and some lines drawn on it.. *The greater vision of freedom and prosperity* does NOT COME from the land holdings themselves.. 

And on that LAST point -- the Trump proposal has that greater vision part right.. They probably should have CANNED the maps and spent more time SUGGESTING political leadership models that are more suited to the history, culture and comfort of the people of Palestine... Models that would PRODUCE the leaders that represent the greater interests of the Pali people..


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## Coyote (Feb 1, 2020)

flacaltenn said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> > U.S. President Donald Trump’s Middle East “deal of the century” offers the Palestinians a state. They have rejected it and threatened instead to ramp up violence against Israel.
> ...




So maybe they elect regional representatives (mayors of major cities, tribal representatives of rural areas) from whom a single representative is chosen for a set period to act in their interest.  Kind of like the Swiss system?


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## ForeverYoung436 (Feb 1, 2020)

Mindful said:


> U.S. President Donald Trump’s Middle East “deal of the century” offers the Palestinians a state. They have rejected it and threatened instead to ramp up violence against Israel.
> 
> No one can be surprised. They have rejected every offer of a state previously made to them in 1937, 1947, 2000, 2008 and 2014.
> 
> ...



Tinmore has to read this article!


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## Mindful (Feb 1, 2020)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> > U.S. President Donald Trump’s Middle East “deal of the century” offers the Palestinians a state. They have rejected it and threatened instead to ramp up violence against Israel.
> ...



Won't change things. He'll give it a funny.


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## Olde Europe (Feb 1, 2020)

*Trump’s ‘deal of the century’ is so absurd and banal, it’s impossible to take it seriously*

When the two old political fraudsters emerged at the White House this week with the most deranged, farcical tragi-comedy in Middle East history, it was difficult to know whether to laugh or cry.

The 80-page “peace” plan from the White House contained 56 references to “Vision” in its first 60 pages – and yes, with a capital V on each occasion to suggest, I guess, that this “deal of the century” was a supernatural revelation. It was not, though it might have been written by a super-Israeli.

It said goodbye to Palestinian refugees – the famous/infamous “right of return” and all who now rot in the camps of the Middle East; farewell to the old city of Jerusalem as a Palestinian capital; adieu to UNRWA, the UN relief agency. But it welcomed a permanent Israeli occupation of the West Bank and the total annexation of almost every Jewish colony built there against all international law.

It’s a given, of course – and has been for days – that this nonsense might just cast some magic dust over the travails of the leaders of America and Israel. As the two rogues, Donald Trump under impeachment and Benjamin Netanyahu charged with corruption, grinned to the applause of their supporters in Washington, it became clear at once that this mendacious document – containing absurdity, burlesque and dreary banality in about equal measure – destroyed forever any hope of an independent Palestinian state of any kind. That’s not what it said, but you only had to glance at the verbiage – where Israel’s occupation, the longest in modern history, was described as a “security footprint” and where the Oslo accord was trashed as an agreement which produced “waves of terror and violence”.

Truly, all must read these 80 pages. And every reader should go through them twice, in case, first time round, they missed some extra egregious indignity inflicted upon the Palestinians. [...]

But when should we journalists take all the stops out, I asked myself when I’d finished reading the 56 “Visions” – there are others, by the way, in lower case, and several “missions” – and the list of prohibitions imposed upon the Palestinians? These included, we should note, the instruction that “the State of Palestine may not join any international organisation if such membership would contradict commitments of the State of Palestine to demilitarisation and cessation of political and *judicial warfare* against the State of Israel”. So goodbye as well to the protection of the International Criminal Court.​
Yep, the most heinous kind of warfare of all, "judicial warfare", shall finally, at long last, be prohibited.  Because, never was anything good accomplished by going after (war) criminals.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Feb 1, 2020)

Olde Europe said:


> *Trump’s ‘deal of the century’ is so absurd and banal, it’s impossible to take it seriously*
> 
> When the two old political fraudsters emerged at the White House this week with the most deranged, farcical tragi-comedy in Middle East history, it was difficult to know whether to laugh or cry.
> 
> ...



What do you mean "nonsense"?  Isn't it about time to say farewell to "right of return", the Old City of Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine, and UNRWA?  It's long past time, in fact.


----------



## Mindful (Feb 1, 2020)

Olde Europe said:


> *Trump’s ‘deal of the century’ is so absurd and banal, it’s impossible to take it seriously*
> 
> When the two old political fraudsters emerged at the White House this week with the most deranged, farcical tragi-comedy in Middle East history, it was difficult to know whether to laugh or cry.
> 
> ...




Robert Fisk? Who else?  




They had every reason to be angry... If I had been them, I would have attacked me





Take it seriously? Speak for yourself.


----------



## Mindful (Feb 1, 2020)

One reason is that verbal Jew-baiting takes the form of anti-Zionism or Israel-bashing. And many don’t recognize anti-Zionism as a form of Jew-hatred. They think antisemitism is a prejudice against Jews as people, whereas anti-Zionism and Israel-bashing are legitimate attacks on a political project.

Antisemitism, however, is not a prejudice like any other. It has unique characteristics applied to no other group, people or cause. It’s an obsessional and unhinged narrative based entirely on lies; it accuses Jews of crimes of which they are not only innocent but the victims; it holds them to standards expected of no one else; it depicts them as a global conspiracy of unique malice and power.

Anti-Zionism has exactly the same unique characteristics directed against the collective Jew in Israel. It is furthermore an attack on Judaism itself, because the land of Israel is an inseparable element.

Of course, Jews remain Jews even if Israel is irrelevant to their lives. But just as the Sabbath is a keystone of Jewish religious belief even though many Jews don’t observe it, the land of Israel is another such keystone.

Judaism is indivisibly composed of the people, the religion and the land. To attack the right of the people to the land is to attack Judaism itself.

The onslaught on Zionism and Israel has therefore legitimized and encouraged unambiguous antisemitism, with behavior of a malice and virulence directed at no other community.

The triple lock of western Jew-hatred | MelaniePhillips.com


----------



## Shusha (Feb 1, 2020)

Olde Europe said:


> It said goodbye to Palestinian refugees – the famous/infamous “right of return” and all who now rot in the camps of the Middle East;
> 
> farewell to the old city of Jerusalem as a Palestinian capital;
> 
> ...



One of the hallmarks of discourse in the past few days is the temper tantrums of Team Palestine screaming "the sky is falling".  While there is much drama over the impending doom of the Arab Palestinians should this framework be adopted, few have bothered to engage with plan as it is written and the potential there to end the conflict and move on with prosperity. 

So let's look at the points brought up in the above post. 

1.  We will say goodbye to the Palestinian refugees rotting in the camps in the ME.  To this I say -- Hallelujah and about bloody time.  These are human beings and they deserve every dignity and opportunity to thrive without being held hostage to some ridiculous notion that generations of people should physically suffer for some lofty ideal of "return" or that somehow this is an acceptable trade-off, let alone a good one. 

Instead, the people affected will, themselves, have the option to choose repatriation to Palestine, to settle in their existing location as FULL citizens with all the rights this entails, or to accept relocation in a voluntary third country.  These are the options already afforded to all the refugees in the world (and not their perpetual descendants).  And this should be normalized for the Arab Palestinians. 

2.  We will bid adieu to UNWRA.  Good riddance.  The sooner the better.  UNWRA is a bloated, self-serving, biased institution whose mandate has long since become fossilized for purposes other than taking care of actual people.  Those living in Gaza and Palestine should be taken care of by their own governments and are by no account actually refugees.  If Gaza and Palestine are incapable or unwilling to provide for their own peoples, they need to straight up just admit that so another government can be formed and step in.  Those living in Jordan should immediately be granted full and inviolable rights to Jordanian citizenship.  Those living in Lebanon who choose to stay should immediately be granted full and inviolable Lebanese citizenship.  The true refugees remaining (a very small number) should be turned over to UNHCR care under all normal conditions.

3.  Palestinians can say farewell to the Old City of Jerusalem as their capital.  Yes, they can.  And yes, they should.  And for very good reason, actually outlined in the framework.  Israel has proven itself absolutely capable of providing freedom of worship and respect for ALL faiths within the Old City.  Israel has provided safety and security for everyone in the Old City.  It is a beautiful and free city for all peoples and all faiths.  It is the living proof that the Jewish people are fully capable of achieving an international character for the city and hosting a gathering of nations.  The Arab Palestinian Muslims, to the contrary, have demonstrated time and time again that they are utterly incapable of permitting freedom of religion and freedom of worship. 

4.  It welcomes recognition of Jewish sovereignty over traditional indigenous Jewish lands.  And put the on-going security of Israel as the homeland of the Jewish people as a priority.  Fully in compliance with international law.  As it should. 

5.  It in absolutely no way prevents an Arab Palestinian State for eternity.  Instead, it provides a viable, step-by-step plan for Palestine to achieve self-determination with a viable economic plan.  This is just straight-up "the sky is falling" drama.  For every State which has limitations or restrictions of a type mentioned in the framework -- there are half a dozen other countries with those same challenges.  Just excuses for allowing Arab Palestine to wallow in victimization rather than stepping onto the mat.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 1, 2020)

Cracking jokes, some Arab Israelis find Trump’s ‘transfer’ plan funny

While leaders of the Arab Israelis are continuing to condemn US President Donald Trump’s plan to transfer some of their communities to a future Palestinian state, some Arab citizens find the proposal so funny that they are cracking jokes and sharing satirical posts and comments on social media.

Trump’s Mideast plan “contemplates the possibility” of redrawing Israeli borders to exclude the so-called Triangle area, home to some 250,000 Arab Israelis living in Kafr Qara, Arara, Baqa al-Gharbiyyeh, Umm al-Fahm, Kalansaweh, Taibeh, Kafr Qassem, Tira, Kafr Bara and Jaljulia.

Arab Israeli social media users have posted photos of signs “welcoming” residents to the “Baka al-Gharbiyyeh Crossing” and “Umm al-Fahm Crossing.”

The signs are similar to those placed by the IDF at entrances to Palestinian cities in the West Bank. The purpose of the photoshopped posts is to show what the entrances to Arab Israeli towns would look like, if and when they become part of a Palestinian state.

Reflecting the fear that Arabs may be stripped of their Israeli citizenship in accordance with the peace plan, other social media users posted photos of Trump announcing that his vision does not include certain Arab Israeli families. The posts aim to “assure” anxious families that they would be permitted to remain in their homes and retain their Israeli citizenship, notwithstanding the plan.


----------



## flacaltenn (Feb 1, 2020)

Coyote said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Mindful said:
> ...



Almost.. Sit ALL of those EXISTING leaders down at the table with respect..  Let them go decide amongst themselves what requests or changes they need.. Eventually, they might want to have real diplomatic delegates for representation as a part of a REAL "Federation of Palestine". .. It just cuts out a bunch of bureaucracy where none is needed... Those folks REPRESENT 80% or MORE of the populace.. Let them into the negotiations...


----------



## Shusha (Feb 1, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Cracking jokes, some Arab Israelis find Trump’s ‘transfer’ plan funny
> 
> While leaders of the Arab Israelis are continuing to condemn US President Donald Trump’s plan to transfer some of their communities to a future Palestinian state, some Arab citizens find the proposal so funny that they are cracking jokes and sharing satirical posts and comments on social media.
> 
> ...



Referendum.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 1, 2020)

flacaltenn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



My feelings exactly.  You can't really have a realistic plan without them.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 1, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Cracking jokes, some Arab Israelis find Trump’s ‘transfer’ plan funny
> ...


?


----------



## flacaltenn (Feb 1, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Cracking jokes, some Arab Israelis find Trump’s ‘transfer’ plan funny
> 
> While leaders of the Arab Israelis are continuing to condemn US President Donald Trump’s plan to transfer some of their communities to a future Palestinian state, some Arab citizens find the proposal so funny that they are cracking jokes and sharing satirical posts and comments on social media.
> 
> ...




This is why every past plan has failed.. You don't START with a map.. You lay out a design and vision of peace, commerce, freedom for ALL of the parties first... 

I doubt there's a sinister plan to jettison Israel's Arabs.. Seriously doubt it.. But glad they are chuckling about it.. Seems Team Trump didn't have enough Palestinian input for this proposal to fly.. OR --- ignored it. OR the Palestinians are still hung up on things they COULD HAVE HAD 25 years ago but can't today..


----------



## Coyote (Feb 1, 2020)

flacaltenn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Cracking jokes, some Arab Israelis find Trump’s ‘transfer’ plan funny
> ...



I don't think they had any...that's the feeling I get in reading it.


----------



## Shusha (Feb 1, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...




Well, you know.  That's what *normal* countries do in circumstances like this where a brand new self-determination is brought into being.  Hold a referendum and people vote to be part of Israel or part of Palestine.  Shrug.  Seems reasonable.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 1, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


As long as no one loses their choice of citizenship.


----------



## flacaltenn (Feb 1, 2020)

Coyote said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



They probably conferred with a couple Arab League countries... It's a good plan for changing up how peace is negotiated here.. They did a swell job of "real estate" and business development (probably OVER did that part)... But what they're lacking is a distribution list to MAKE peace with other than Abbas and Hamas.. 

I've always thought Hannah Ashrawi was the best PA spokesperson..  Still very informative and not as political..


----------



## Shusha (Feb 1, 2020)

Coyote said:


> As long as no one loses their choice of citizenship.



People (on both sides) ultimately will have the choice of staying in place or retaining citizenship, in all likelihood.  Its not going to be perfect for everyone.

And dual citizenship is always an option.


----------



## Shusha (Feb 1, 2020)

flacaltenn said:


> They probably conferred with a couple Arab League countries... It's a good plan for changing up how peace is negotiated here.. They did a swell job of "real estate" and business development (probably OVER did that part)... But what they're lacking is a distribution list to MAKE peace with other than Abbas and Hamas..
> 
> I've always thought Hannah Ashrawi was the best PA spokesperson..  Still very informative and not as political..




I was going to agree with this.  And then the last sentence.  Ugh.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 1, 2020)

Olde Europe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Olde Europe said:
> ...





Olde Europe said:


> In effect, it is the old divide et impera strategy pursued by Israel since at least *Hamas won the Gaza elections,*


This is a common piece of misinformation. Hamas was not elected only in Gaza. Hamas was elected nation wide. Hamas was the majority party in the PA. Hamas was the elected government in office in all of Palestine.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 1, 2020)

*The Trump/Netanyahu Peace Deal Is Geopolitical Gangsterism*

**


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (Feb 1, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> *The Trump/Netanyahu Peace Deal Is Geopolitical Gangsterism*
> 
> **



The Palestinians don’t like Trump’s plan?  What if his plan was different? Would they act any better if all of their demands weren’t met?


----------



## Shusha (Feb 1, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> *The Trump/Netanyahu Peace Deal Is Geopolitical Gangsterism*
> 
> **



Oh seriously?  We should reject the Trump plan because it doesn't align with her "personal sensibilities"?  3.38.  Come on.


----------



## Shusha (Feb 1, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> *The Trump/Netanyahu Peace Deal Is Geopolitical Gangsterism*
> 
> **



"It appeared to be some kind of unidentified chemical nerve agent that was causing people to -- I mean that's a war crime in and of itself -- its causing people to lose consciousness, its deadly if you are exposed to it for too long..."

These are lies.  Blatant untruths.  Its the well-poisoning trope.  

My question is, if your cause is so obviously just and right -- why do you have to devolve all the way down to the well-poisoning canard?


----------



## Shusha (Feb 1, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> *The Trump/Netanyahu Peace Deal Is Geopolitical Gangsterism*
> 
> **




OMG.  Seriously?!  It just gets worse and worse.  Palestinians are not allowed to get medical care?  Come on.  This is ridiculous.  You should be embarrassed to post this crap.


----------



## Shusha (Feb 1, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> *The Trump/Netanyahu Peace Deal Is Geopolitical Gangsterism*
> 
> **




Also, aside from the fact that every single sentence in that video is just wrong....they said absolutely nothing about the Trump Plan.  Which confirms my understanding that there is a knee jerk reaction with no basis in reality or what the plan actually says.  Just more "Israel is evil" because ....  well ... it just is.  So there.


----------



## Mindful (Feb 2, 2020)

Shusha said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > They probably conferred with a couple Arab League countries... It's a good plan for changing up how peace is negotiated here.. They did a swell job of "real estate" and business development (probably OVER did that part)... But what they're lacking is a distribution list to MAKE peace with other than Abbas and Hamas..
> ...




I can't bear that woman.


The Izraeleez!  The Izraeleez!


----------



## ChrisL (Feb 2, 2020)

The leftists here in America will have a conniption fit if there is a peace plan that works during the Trump administration.  LOL!  Yes, they hate Trump that much.


----------



## Shusha (Feb 2, 2020)

Abbas admitted that he refused to read the Plan so that he could argue that he was not consulted.

He refused consultation for the express purpose of claiming he was not consulted.

It’s the Palestinian mentality.


----------



## Mindful (Feb 2, 2020)

*Portuguese Magazine Must Fire Antisemitic Cartoonist*








Vasco Gargalo, a cartoonist employed by Sabado Magazine in Portugal has published a cartoon entitled "The Crematorium" that uses includes Auschwitz imagery and Holocaust reversal to push a false accusation that Israel is perpetrating an institutional genocide against Palestinian Arabs.


----------



## rylah (Feb 2, 2020)

Mindful said:


> U.S. President Donald Trump’s Middle East “deal of the century” offers the Palestinians a state. They have rejected it and threatened instead to ramp up violence against Israel.
> 
> No one can be surprised. They have rejected every offer of a state previously made to them in 1937, 1947, 2000, 2008 and 2014.
> 
> ...



Thanks for that perspective.
Sincere realism is rare in the midst of all the noise.


----------



## Mindful (Feb 2, 2020)

Thank you, Rylah. 

I'm a fan of Melanie Phillips.


----------



## rylah (Feb 2, 2020)

Coyote said:


> I remember ages ago, a course I took that discussed the evolution of nations...from tribes to city states to nation states.  Maybe it is time to revisit the idea of city states.



Maybe, but Israel seems an exception to what you describe.
The tribes of Israel jumped straight to nation state, fighting the smaller city state kingdoms.
I just find it peculiar, as much as ironic, me pushing this idea to the forefront, only to reject it later.

But the left on their own start acknowledging the inevitability of application of Israeli sovereignty,
don't you see how the conversation has shifted?


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Feb 2, 2020)

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > I remember ages ago, a course I took that discussed the evolution of nations...from tribes to city states to nation states.  Maybe it is time to revisit the idea of city states.
> ...



Yes, but there was a time when the Kingdom of Israel and the Kingdom of Judah fought each other.  We weren't always united.


----------



## eagle1462010 (Feb 2, 2020)

All this will do is give new places for them to launch mortar and rocket attacks against Israel.................They do not want anything other than Israel's destruction...................

Pipe Dreams.


----------



## rylah (Feb 2, 2020)

Mindful said:


> Thank you, Rylah.
> 
> I'm a fan of Melanie Phillips.



I like her, it was strange when she with Einat Wilf chose to follow the PC censorship,
 and not be as straightforward with the al-Jazeera host.

I like them both, because they're straightforward.


----------



## Mindful (Feb 2, 2020)

eagle1462010 said:


> All this will do is give new places for them to launch mortar and rocket attacks against Israel.................They do not want anything other than Israel's destruction...................
> 
> Pipe Dreams.



Someone up thread said that there would have to be assurances from the PA, this would cease.

Won't stop Hezbollah in the south of Lebanon though.


----------



## Mindful (Feb 2, 2020)

rylah said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you, Rylah.
> ...



She has a very dignified and pragmatic approach during interviews. Despite being hounded by the anti Israel mob during one live BBC show.


----------



## rylah (Feb 2, 2020)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Yes, it was split of a nation state into two kingdoms in which central cities were subject to a capital, not a union of separate city states but a centralized nation state.


----------



## rylah (Feb 2, 2020)

Mindful said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Mindful said:
> ...



The ironic part is, people who speak like her were considered leftists 50 years ago,
now I'm sure they brand her an extremist of the right. 

Since You know, Arabs are now the new PC trend for everything left and liberal.
Just look who heads UN human rights commissions...


----------



## Mindful (Feb 2, 2020)

rylah said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...



For me, the UN is irrelevant.


----------



## Olde Europe (Feb 2, 2020)

Coyote said:


> I wonder...how united are they really?  For one, they ruled by different political regimes, for another, they often seem to poll very differently.
> 
> Do you have any actual data to support what you say?  I am curious.



See:

An exit poll conducted by Near East Consulting on 15 February 2006 on voters participating in the 2006 PA elections revealed the following responses to major concerns:  [...]

    Support for a Peace Agreement with Israel: 79.5% in support; 15.5% in opposition
    Should Hamas change its policies regarding Israel: Yes – 75.2%; No – 24.8%
    Under Hamas corruption will decrease: Yes – 78.1%; No – 21.9%
    Under Hamas internal security will improve: Yes – 67.8%; No – 32.2%
    Hamas government priorities: 1) Combatting corruption; 2) Ending security chaos; 3) Solving poverty/unemployment
    Support for Hamas' impact on the national interest: Positive – 66.7&; Negative - 28.5%
*Support for a national unity government?: Yes – 81.4%; no – 18.6%*​


----------



## rylah (Feb 2, 2020)

Mindful said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Mindful said:
> ...



How did Ben-Gurion said, 
_"it doesn't matter what the nations say, matters what Israel does".


_


----------



## rylah (Feb 2, 2020)

Olde Europe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder...how united are they really?  For one, they ruled by different political regimes, for another, they often seem to poll very differently.
> ...



Isn't that before they got to actually live under Hamas rule?
If you have any serious polls up to date please bring them forth.

Last time PA allowed elections, Arabs overwhelmingly voted for tribal representatives,
over political parties.


----------



## Mindful (Feb 2, 2020)

rylah said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...



I visited his house once. Books everywhere.


----------



## eagle1462010 (Feb 2, 2020)

Mindful said:


> eagle1462010 said:
> 
> 
> > All this will do is give new places for them to launch mortar and rocket attacks against Israel.................They do not want anything other than Israel's destruction...................
> ...


Who believes them given their history...............You can't trust them.


----------



## rylah (Feb 2, 2020)

Mindful said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Mindful said:
> ...



Walla, didn't know about that, in Tel-Aviv or Negev?

And sure, it was a new spring of intellectual idealism, and they were all Heider students...
Maran HaRav Kook aside from being a genius Torah scholar, was well versed in the contemporary intellectual language and disciplines, the Lubavitche Rebbe got an Elec. engineering degree going to the university in Tfilin and studying Talmud while listening to lectures.

 They were all heavyweights.

Conversations between the Hazon Ish and Ben-Gurion are historically very interesting in that context.
Socialist founder of the state taking advice and arguing with the Hacham of the Bnei Brak ghetto about government policy...couldn't do that without a healthy amount of humor on their side.


----------



## Mindful (Feb 2, 2020)

rylah said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...



Tel Aviv.


----------



## Mindful (Feb 2, 2020)

*Mahmoud Abbas Cuts Ties with US and Israel, World in Shock*
By
Daniel Krygier
 - 
February 2, 2020
111




In a fit of rage over President Trump’s “Deal of the Century” peace plan, PLO chief Mahmoud Abbas cut ties with America and Israel. The plan calls for the establishment of a new Arab state living in peace with the Jewish state. In addition, Trump’s plan offers 50 billion dollars in investments in the new PLO state if it renounces terrorism against Israel.


Mr. Abbas’s spokesperson Mohamed al-Megalomania spoke to Israellycool: “Living in peace with the Jews? This is not part of our culture! Mr. Abbas’s powerful decision will teach the Zionists and the Cowboys a lesson. From now on, Abbas refuses to be protected by Zionist security, fed with Zionist food, and cured by Zionist doctors at Zionist Apartheid hospitals. Mr. Abbas will also refuse to get free Zionist electricity and American money. In addition, our popular Days of Rage will no longer be tuition-free.”

People worldwide were in shock over Mr. Abbas’s decision to end all relations with the hands that feed him. After all, Pallywood is the world’s leading non-existing kleptocratic banana terrorist republic.

The Chinese government abruptly stopped focusing on pesky details like fighting the Coronavirus and declared three days of mourning over Abbas’s diplomatic shock tactics.

For the first time since the creation of the universe, the sun respectfully rotated around planet Pallywood.

The New Yallah Stock Exchange (NYSE) collapsed fifteen terrorist points, pushing the world to the dangerous brink of another great anti-terrorist depression.

The UN’s Human Bribes Council passed a resolution condemning the “heartless and racist” Trump plan, which denies PLO the fundamental human right to push the annoying Jews into the Mediterranean Ocean.

Global environmentalist superstar Greta Thunberg was outraged:

“This is all wrong. I should be back in school learning Marxism. Instead, I have to fight American-Zionist attacks on PLO’s peaceful Jihad ecosystem. How dare you Mr. Trump!”

Monty Python’s Ministry of Funny Walks protested against Trump’s peace plan by merging with the Arab League of Funny Talks.

The self-appointed leading human rights power, the European Union blasted Trump’s peace plan as “one-sided” and labeled President Trump an “illegal Zionist product from the New York settlement.”

The European Union’s keffiyeh-clad Middle East envoy Manneken Pissed told Israellycool:

“The Deal of the Century is a declaration of war against all Israel critical human bribes activists who want the Jews to rest in peace. Today as all of the year’s 365 days, we are all Pallynudniks.”

Mahmoud Abbas Cuts Ties with US and Israel, World in Shock


----------



## Mindful (Feb 2, 2020)

eagle1462010 said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> > eagle1462010 said:
> ...



If Iran controls them, I suppose they can do what they want.


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (Feb 2, 2020)

Mindful said:


> *Mahmoud Abbas Cuts Ties with US and Israel, World in Shock*
> By
> Daniel Krygier
> -
> ...



Not surprised. I wonder if he would have done the same if Trump did not declare all of Jerusalem Israel Proper, if he demanded equal land exchanges to allow Israel’s right to the Jewish Quarter which includes Holy Sites? 
   Netanyahu would have agreed


----------



## rylah (Feb 2, 2020)

Mindful said:


> *Mahmoud Abbas Cuts Ties with US and Israel, World in Shock*
> By
> Daniel Krygier
> -
> ...




"World is shocked!" they say...  
Galactic Federation's flashmob of the century.


----------



## rylah (Feb 2, 2020)

*Yesha Council: Yes to sovereignty, no to Palestinian state*

The Yesha Council held a special executive meeting on Saturday night and discussed the details of US President Donald Trump’s “Deal of the Century”.

The heads of the councils were updated on details of the plan and on the situation by the heads of the councils who visited Washington this week.

"The Yesha Council continues to support the application of sovereignty in Judea, Samaria and the Jordan Valley and strongly opposes a Palestinian state," said a statement released following the meeting.

At the end of the meeting, it was decided to continue the discussions in the coming days, and to monitor the developments.






Source: *Israel National News*


----------



## rylah (Feb 2, 2020)

Mindful said:


> *Mahmoud Abbas Cuts Ties with US and Israel, World in Shock*
> By
> Daniel Krygier
> -
> ...



Not only, they went on to banning meat import from Israel (largely an Arab monopoly), to which the Israeli Defense minister responded with an overall ban of their produce.

Next week they will whine meat prices went up, instead of building a port with Jordan to trade their own...

They're utterly stupid, those Syrian goats cost a fortune anywhere in the world, another monopoly their stock owners could grab just like that. They surely won't transfer them through Ben-Gurion in a jacket.


----------



## rylah (Feb 2, 2020)

What a show,
the Arab Joint List (Knesset party) and the PA are now exchanging high polemics which all come down to variations of "we don't want any of you here".

Trump certainly triggered those clowns to come to clear water.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 2, 2020)

Olde Europe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder...how united are they really?  For one, they ruled by different political regimes, for another, they often seem to poll very differently.
> ...



How much has changed in 14 years?


----------



## Coyote (Feb 2, 2020)

Mindful said:


> *Mahmoud Abbas Cuts Ties with US and Israel, World in Shock*
> By
> Daniel Krygier
> -
> ...




The "Deal of the Century" completely excluded any Palestinian input.  No one should be surprised at the reactions.

Imagine if the "Deal of the Century" were made with the US and Palestinians only.  I doubt Israel would jump on board.


----------



## Olde Europe (Feb 2, 2020)

Coyote said:


> The "Deal of the Century" completely excluded any Palestinian input.  No one should be surprised at the reactions.



"Mr. Abbas’s spokesperson *Mohamed al-Megalomania* spoke to Israellycool ..."

You do realize our hasbara peddlers have been "discussing" venomous satire as if it were legit news, don't you?


----------



## Mindful (Feb 2, 2020)

Olde Europe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > The "Deal of the Century" completely excluded any Palestinian input.  No one should be surprised at the reactions.
> ...



Stirring it up again, Olde? 

With the use of language native speakers would not use.

You've been demonising Israel for years now.


----------



## rylah (Feb 2, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> > *Mahmoud Abbas Cuts Ties with US and Israel, World in Shock*
> ...



How more will you repeat this silly talking point in face of facts?
The PA refused giving any input, Abbas went into long detail how at the Arab League about how he refused to review anything, the invitation to talks, the calls.

Demand anything take responsibility for nothing.
Silly games.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 2, 2020)

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Mindful said:
> ...



Not at all.

Against decades of insistence that any resolution MUST be a negotiated one between the Palestinians and Israel:

Trump gave Jerusalem in entirety to Israel, severing any Palestinian claims to any part of it.

Trump closed the Palestinian "consulate".

Trump ended all aid, of any kind, to the Palestinians.

Then you wonder why they wouldn't come to the negotiating table?  Seriously?

Again, if the situation were reversed...


----------



## Olde Europe (Feb 2, 2020)

Coyote said:


> How much has changed in 14 years?



In my view, not much.

"October 2018: 60.3% of respondents supported Egypt if it exerts pressure on Fateh and Hamas to end the Palestinian division."

So, six out of ten view Palestinian unity to be of such import, they'd even welcome outside interference (by Egypt) to bring it about.  Sure there are more supporting unity while also distrustful or dismissive of outside interference.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Feb 2, 2020)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



*Trump gave Jerusalem in entirety to Israel, severing any Palestinian claims to any part of it.*

Recognizing reality is never a bad thing.

*Trump ended all aid, of any kind, to the Palestinians.*

Their own country and $50 billion....why do they need more aid? To buy rockets and dig tunnels?


----------



## rylah (Feb 2, 2020)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



One simply incorrect.
Two-three correct, and that is in response to PA financial incitement to murder of Americans.
And I don't wonder, no one does, that who they are.

Guess what, was the Israeli Pres. or PM called to review the plan of Abbas in its development, or any of the Arab initiatives for that matter, ever?


----------



## Coyote (Feb 2, 2020)

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...



One is correct: the status of Jerusalem is to be determined in negotiations per the Oslo Accords.

Two:  US suspending aid and why - nothing about the reason being in response to PA financial incitement to murder Americans.  This is, by the way a conservative rightwing source.  09/2018

Why Trump Was Right to End Funding for the UN Palestinian Aid Organization

Three: the decision to close the Palestinian mission in Washington DC 09/2018.

Trump Administration To Close Palestine Liberation Organization Office In D.C.
_The Trump administration says it is closing the office of the Palestine Liberation Organization in Washington, D.C., effectively shuttering the Palestinian diplomatic mission to the U.S.

"We have permitted the PLO office to conduct operations that support the objective of achieving a lasting, comprehensive peace between Israelis and the Palestinians," State Department spokesperson Heather Nauert said in a statement Monday.

"However, the PLO has not taken steps to advance the start of direct and meaningful negotiations with Israel," she added.

Husam Zomlot, the head of the Palestinian delegation to the U.S., said that they are "not surprised."

"Such a reckless act confirms that the administration is blindly executing Israel's 'wish list,' which starts with shutting down Palestinian diplomatic representation in the US," he said in a statement.

Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat described the decision as "yet another affirmation of the Trump Administration's policy to collectively punish the Palestinian people." He vowed to "protect the rights of our citizens living in the United States to access their consular services."_​
So three unilateral moves by the Trump Administration favoring Israel and shutting out the Palestinians.


Lastly, the timeline: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2020/01/28/timeline-trumps-policies-toward-palestinians/

_*January 2018: *In tweets, Trump threatened to cut U.S. aid to the Palestinians. The announcement came after Abbas rejected Washington’s recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital and pledged 
to reject any Trump-sponsored peace plan.

*August 2018:* Washington announced another cut in aid to Palestinians, this time $200 million in funding to programs in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

The State Department said the cutbacks were meant “to ensure these funds are spent in accordance with U.S. national interests and provide value to the U.S. taxpayer.” 

“This administration is dismantling decades of U.S. vision and engagement in Palestinian territories,” Husam Zomlot, then a Palestinian envoy in Washington, said in a statement. “After Jerusalem and UNRWA, this is another confirmation of abandoning the two-state solution and fully embracing [Israeli prime minister Benjamin] Netanyahu’s anti-peace agenda.” 

Later that month, the Trump administration decided to cut off the remaining aid to UNRWA._​

Me:  US Aid being cut was not tied to excitement by PA of violence on Americans - per Trump himself in his usual policy-by-tweet methodology, it was a retaliation of Abbas being unwilling to work with the Trump Administration after the unilateral action on Jerusalem. 

We can agree or disagree (I'm sure it's disagree) on whether or not this was appropriate, but I would suggest we think about this more broadly (and again - how would you feel if the positions were reversed ) - with the series of actions by the Trump administration from the beginning: meeting with Israel, but not the Palestinians; Jerusalem; Cutting ALL aid, even humanitarian; closing their office in Washington.

WHY would the Palestinians enter into negotiations with the US after these actions?  WHY would they trust them?

The plan itself, imo, has good points and troublesome points, not the least of which is a heavy dependence on unspecified massive amounts of outside funding.  But it has NO Palestinian input what so ever nor was there any effort, that I can find, to include them even in an unofficial way.  What you have is a "mandate" from powers - Israel and the US, that is is what it will be.

What people would go along with that in this day and age?


----------



## Coyote (Feb 2, 2020)

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...



None of those carry the weight of US led negotiations and plans.  The US was, formerly, regarded as somewhat of a fair mediator who included both.  In general, Israel's gotten the better part of any deal (and I'm not arguing for/against that) - but both sides were involved.


----------



## Shusha (Feb 2, 2020)

Coyote said:


> The "Deal of the Century" completely excluded any Palestinian input.  No one should be surprised at the reactions.
> 
> Imagine if the "Deal of the Century" were made with the US and Palestinians only.  I doubt Israel would jump on board.



Even if that were true (and it is not since Abbas told everyone he rejected participation expressly so that he could whine and sulk that he didn't participate), the Palestinians should still come to the table and begin negotiating.  It would be a great idea for the US and the Palestinians to sit down and hammer out their own proposal for a framework toward peace and prosperity.  They should do it, starting tomorrow.  

And SOMEONE out there on Team Palestine should start whittling away at this proposal and determine what can be lived with and what needs changing, instead of continuing to whine and complain that the "sky is falling" and the US and Israel are evil for the very idea of putting together such a considered and comprehensive proposal.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Feb 2, 2020)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...



The part about Jerusalem is not true.  Three neighborhoods in East Jerusalem were given to the Palestinians.  If they want to use that to be their capital, is entirely up to them.  If they choose to do that, President Trump said he would put the American embassy to the State of Palestine there.  Plus, the status quo on the Temple Mount would be maintained (namely the Muslim Wakf being in charge, and Jews not being allowed to pray there).


----------



## Shusha (Feb 2, 2020)

Coyote said:


> WHY would the Palestinians enter into negotiations with the US after these actions?  WHY would they trust them?



You might consider this in reverse.  Why would the US agree to consult with the Palestinian government when that government has repeatedly refused to participate even in early conversations?


----------



## Shusha (Feb 2, 2020)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Plus, the status quo on the Temple Mount would be maintained (namely the Muslim Wakf being in charge, and Jews not being allowed to pray there).



The Plan actually calls for complete freedom of worship and prayer for people of all faiths on the Temple Mount.  Explicitly.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Feb 2, 2020)

Shusha said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Plus, the status quo on the Temple Mount would be maintained (namely the Muslim Wakf being in charge, and Jews not being allowed to pray there).
> ...



Oh sorry.  I read somewhere that the status quo would be maintained over there.


----------



## Shusha (Feb 2, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Not at all.
> 
> Against decades of insistence that any resolution MUST be a negotiated one between the Palestinians and Israel:
> 
> ...




Can we just be clear here that Trump doesn't have the power to "give" anything to anyone.  Jerusalem is ALREADY under Israeli sovereignty.  The US recognizes Israeli sovereignty there.  

Final status can still be negotiated, but it is unlikely in the extreme that Israel is going to give up any substantial part of Jerusalem, certainly not the Temple and the Old City.  The reasons for this are very clear in the Framework:  Israel has demonstrated its willingness and ability to maintain peace and security, with freedom of worship and respect for the Muslim Holy Shrines.  

But if Palestine has a counter-offer for Jerusalem it should spit one up.  What would such a counter-offer look like?


----------



## Shusha (Feb 2, 2020)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...



Oh that was in there too.  That the status quo would be maintained, with Jordan and the Waqf carrying out their continued involvement.  But the freedom of prayer was explicitly mentioned.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 2, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > The "Deal of the Century" completely excluded any Palestinian input.  No one should be surprised at the reactions.
> ...


Hard disagree.

Trump implemented a series of measures that made impossible for Abbas to go to the negotiating table:  Jerusalem, cutting all aid, shutting down their office and booting them.  After those actions there is no way the Palestinia s OR ANYONE ELSE would trust or work with the US or Israel.

You call it whining.  If Trump had done this Israel, I seriously doubt Israel would be at the table.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 2, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > The "Deal of the Century" completely excluded any Palestinian input.  No one should be surprised at the reactions.
> ...



Already done.  In fact it was one of my first posts.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 2, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > WHY would the Palestinians enter into negotiations with the US after these actions?  WHY would they trust them?
> ...


They have in the past.  With the current administration, what has been the timeline of events?  When did the Palestinians refuse?  What steps were taken to bring both sides in?  This is known as diplomacy.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 2, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > The "Deal of the Century" completely excluded any Palestinian input.  No one should be surprised at the reactions.
> ...


By the way no one is throwing around the term "evil".  Except you.

It is perfectly legitimate to ask how you can have a plan, put together by Israel and the US and zero Palistinian input and expect it to fly.

Like I said before, if Trump had unilaterally supported the Palestinian claim to Jerusalem, cut off all aid to Israel, closed their embassy and  announced they were working with the Palestinians on a peace plan, would you like to participate...the enthusiasm would be lacking.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 2, 2020)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


What did the Oslo Accords say?


----------



## Coyote (Feb 2, 2020)

So.  Problems with this plan.

Lack of input from the Palestinian community.

Lack of buy in.

Presumption of successful united leadership in one future state.

It seems to me that this plan was released (or sprung) prematurely due to the political troubles Trump and Netanyahu face.

It would have been better to spend some time selling it to the palestinian people (not the political leadership), getting input from local leadership, the equivalent of town halls, before presenting it.


----------



## Shusha (Feb 2, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



It is NOT impossible for Abbas to go to the negotiating table.  And claiming that it is impossible is just an excuse to avoid negotiating.  And the only people being harmed by this refusal to negotiate are the Arab Palestinians.


----------



## Shusha (Feb 2, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



I'm waiting for your counter-offer.


----------



## Shusha (Feb 2, 2020)

Coyote said:


> [
> It is perfectly legitimate to ask how you can have a plan, put together by Israel and the US and zero Palistinian input and expect it to fly.



No one is expecting it to fly.  We are simply expecting discussion.  Why won't Abbas and the Palestinians discuss it?


----------



## Coyote (Feb 2, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



No.  It isn't.  He has to be able justify his actions to his people and he has been put in an untenable position.  Diplomacy isn't a business deal mandated by a CEO.  There has to be a way for both sides to have some sort of win to take home.  The process thus far hasn't allowed that.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 2, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


I made one suggestion. Go out, present it and sell it to the Palestinian people and local leadership  and see what they have to say.  What you or I think is irrelevant.  We dont live with it.


----------



## Shusha (Feb 2, 2020)

Coyote said:


> So.  Problems with this plan.
> 
> Lack of input from the Palestinian community.
> 
> ...



1. and 2. are not really problems with the plan.  They are rejections of any plan.  If the Arab Palestinians can't "buy in" to peace and an end of conflict agreement, then one will have to be imposed on them unilaterally.  

3. is an admission that Arab Palestine is not currently capable of joining the family of nations and becoming a State.  Its an admission of a failure to govern.


None of these things is a failure of the PLAN.  They are indications of much bigger and deeper problems.  How would you suggest solving these problems?


----------



## Coyote (Feb 2, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > [
> ...


Because they have been diplomatically insulted insulted and stiffed.  What is more, what reason would they have to believe the US is acting in good faith?


----------



## Coyote (Feb 2, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > So.  Problems with this plan.
> ...



I totally disagree that totally excluding one side from a plan "is not a problem". 

I can't imagine anyone in a conflict feeling that their exclusion from a deal while the opponent was integral to it...is "not a problem".

What I suggest is go to the people and their local leadership and get some information.  What do these different communities want?  What can they live with? What can they not live with?  What do they think of the various aspects of the plan?  Can Gaza be negotiated separately then WB?

Take that info and see what is workable with Israel.

And maybe a lot of it is but you won't get support without going to the people who'd lives will be affected.

THEN you have a workable beginning imo.


----------



## Shusha (Feb 2, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



This plan offers PLENTY of win for the Arab Palestinians:

$50 billion in investment into infrastructure and the economy
a STATE
contiguity
status quo at Harim al-Sharif
a capital in parts of Jerusalem
ports, airports, trade routes
external defense (hello, Iran)
100% of Arab Palestinians living under their own self-government
choice for "refugees" and an end to their refugee status and the discrimination
Win and win and win.  

If you are saying that this list of wins is an "untenable position" then you have announced that there is no possible way for there to be an end of conflict agreement.  

If that is true, then Israel should do whatever she needs to do to secure her future and the future well-being of her people.  If its still the three no's, and if it will always be the three no's, then Israel has no choice but to act unilaterally.  And she should.


----------



## Shusha (Feb 2, 2020)

Coyote said:


> I totally disagree that totally excluding one side from a plan "is not a problem".



But they are not being excluded.  They are explicitly rejecting inclusion.


----------



## Shusha (Feb 2, 2020)

Coyote said:


> What I suggest is go to the people and their local leadership and get some information.  What do these different communities want?  What can they live with? What can they not live with?  What do they think of the various aspects of the plan?



Now THAT is a very sly proposal.  Israel bypasses the governments of Palestine and treats directly with small local leaderships to create a number of different treaties and agreements with local governments.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 2, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > I totally disagree that totally excluding one side from a plan "is not a problem".
> ...


They rejected inclusion because of specific actions by the Trump administration that indicated the US was not fair negotiating intermediary.

Do think Israel would have included themselves had they been treated that way?  I doubt it.  I dont see why the Palestinians would be any different.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 2, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > What I suggest is go to the people and their local leadership and get some information.  What do these different communities want?  What can they live with? What can they not live with?  What do they think of the various aspects of the plan?
> ...


I wasn't thinking of Israel.  I was thinking the US should and I wasnt suggesting treaties either.  Where on earth did you come up with that?  Reread my posts.


----------



## Shusha (Feb 2, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



You are suggesting that the US as a "fair negotiator" bypass the recognized government of Palestine as a means of creating a Framework for an end of conflict agreement?  What?!  

Just who are you proposing Israel sign this Peace Treaty with then?


----------



## Shusha (Feb 2, 2020)

Coyote said:


> They rejected inclusion because of specific actions by the Trump administration that indicated the US was not fair negotiating intermediary.
> 
> Do think Israel would have included themselves had they been treated that way?  I doubt it.  I dont see why the Palestinians would be any different.



Oh come on.  The PLAN itself suggests the US is a fair negotiating partner, giving maximum wins to both sides.  To reject the plan without even looking at it, is ridiculous.  Jeez, even the Arab League actually read the plan.


----------



## Shusha (Feb 2, 2020)

Instead of complaining that their feelings are hurt because they are not relevant, the government(s) of Palestine should be working their asses off to BE relevant.


----------



## Olde Europe (Feb 2, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Go out, present it and sell it to the Palestinian people and local leadership  and see what they have to say.



How is that supposed to work?

"77.2% of [Palestinian] respondents believed that the "deal of the century" that the US president intends to launch aims at ransacking the Palestinian issue."

No, this doesn't tell you how bad the "plan" is, just how bad the plan was expected to be, in October 2018.  And that was an indication of Palestinian trust in U.S. fairness, or rather the lack thereof.  Now that the plan exceeds the most pessimistic expectations I have seen, trying to sell it to ordinary Palestinians is perfectly pointless, and will be seen as an attempt at driving a wedge between Palestinians and their leadership, who have angrily rejected it.

There are no "good aspects" of that plan.  None.  All the high-pitch, fast-track, state-of-the-art goodies are mere bait, exactly the attempt at selling that "plan" to Palestinians.  None of these goodies is going to materialize, and that's why, even while that was perfectly under the planners' control, they didn't bother to present firm commitments to funding the "goodies".  Everybody knew, the plan would be rejected by both Palestinians and their leadership, no one would ever be able to extract the humiliating conditions imposed on Palestinians in general, and on Hamas in particular.  No one could be seen, ever, to jettison East Jerusalem and to set the refugees adrift, and with that the "plan" is merely an ultimatum no one would meet, and an excuse to move ahead with annexation at Israel's will - with Palestinian rejectionism as the threadbare "justification".  That was the real plan from the get-go.

The worst aspect of that "plan" was the U.S. carelessly throwing away the last remainder of its standing as an honest broker.  That's gone now, and I, for one, can't begin to explain how that might be regained.  And with that the last hope for a peaceful resolution is also gone.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Feb 2, 2020)

Olde Europe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Go out, present it and sell it to the Palestinian people and local leadership  and see what they have to say.
> ...



This is the best plan there ever was.  Like Jared said in an interview on CNN, it sets up "benchmarks" for the Palestinians to achieve to earn their independence.  They are expected to give up terror and Hamas.  They are expected to root out corruption in their leadership.  They are expected to assimilate the refugees in their new state, while Lebanon, Jordan and Syria are expected to give citizenship to the rest.  In short, if they can prove that they can act like a normal nation, they will then prove they can join the family of nations.


----------



## José (Feb 2, 2020)

1 They are expected to give up terror and Hamas. 

2 They are expected to root out corruption in their leadership. 

3 They are expected to assimilate the refugees in their new state, while Lebanon, Jordan and Syria are expected to give citizenship to the rest.

You forgot the most important item:

*4 They are expected to spread their asscheeks wide open and close their eyes.*


----------



## Hollie (Feb 2, 2020)

José said:


> 1 They are expected to give up terror and Hamas.
> 
> 2 They are expected to root out corruption in their leadership.
> 
> ...



Islamic terrorists expected up to give up Islamic terrorism?

That’s just, you know, _racist_™️ or something.


----------



## José (Feb 2, 2020)

> Originally posted by *Hollie*
> Islamic terrorists expected up to give up Islamic terrorism?
> 
> That’s just, you know, _racist_™️ or something.



Well, to be fair, the history of "negotiations" between every settler colonialist state that has ever existed in human history and the natives they subjugated (America and Indians, Afrikaners and black south africans, France and Algeria's natives etc, etc...) can be summed up by the 4th item FY forgot to mention:

*The natives were expected to spread their asscheeks and hope it wouldn't be too fat.*

So no one can say I'm unfairly singling out Israel.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Feb 2, 2020)

José said:


> > Originally posted by *Hollie*
> > Islamic terrorists expected up to give up Islamic terrorism?
> >
> > That’s just, you know, _racist_™️ or something.
> ...



*between every settler colonialist state that has ever existed in human history and the natives they subjugated (America and Indians, Afrikaners and black south africans, France and Algeria's natives etc, etc...)*

Muslims, and everyone they invaded.


----------



## Mindful (Feb 3, 2020)

Hollywood legend and longtime pro-Israel activist Jon Voight voiced support on Sunday for Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu in the country’s general elections next month. He also cautiously endorsed the newly unveiled United States plan for peace between Israel and the Palestinians.

In exclusive comments to _The Algemeiner_, Voight called it the first such proposed deal “with feet on the ground.”

He added, “It’s the first one that’s taken a responsible approach. Much truth has been spoken in it and we have to accept the truth before we can make amends, and much harm has been done to Israel over the years. Many lies have been put in place and attacks have taken their toll. Much blood has been spilled.”


Hollywood Icon Jon Voight Voices Support for Netanyahu in Upcoming Election, Endorses New Middle East Peace Plan


----------



## José (Feb 3, 2020)

> Originally posted by FY
> 1 They are expected to give up terror and Hamas.
> 
> 2 They are expected to root out corruption in their leadership.
> ...


______________________________________________________________________________________________________

What do you call a political entity designed by foreign powers, with no historical and popular legitimacy, without a military, crammed with refugees dreaming of going home, crisscrossed by ethnically segregated roads, with adjacent settlements, checkpoints and military bases between the "cantons", bridges and tunnels "uniting" its disconnected pieces?

American and Israeli political leaders have lost any final vestiges of shame if they ever had any...

They don't even sugarcoat the arab bantustans they devise any more.


----------



## Mindful (Feb 3, 2020)

Looking back to 2011. What if.......?


*What if the Arabs had recognized Israel in 1948?*

ABDULATEEF AL-MULHIM
March 11, 201121:41

Now, the Palestinians are on their own, each Arab country is busy with its own crisis and has put the Palestinian-Israeli conflict on hold.


What if the Arabs had recognized Israel in 1948?


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Feb 3, 2020)

José said:


> 1 They are expected to give up terror and Hamas.
> 
> 2 They are expected to root out corruption in their leadership.
> 
> ...



I know, isn't it terrible if you are expected to root out corruption in your own leadership?  "Who are you to tell me this?  If I want to have leaders who live in mansions and fly in private jets and never allow us to have an election, that's my own beezwax."

It's equally as horrible to assimilate refugees.  Don't you think my father would still like to live in the DP camp he was in after WW2?  Don't you think my mom would still want to be in that tent that she lived in when she first came to Israel?  What could they be thinking?


----------



## Mindful (Feb 3, 2020)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> José said:
> 
> 
> > 1 They are expected to give up terror and Hamas.
> ...



There were 6 million DP in Europe following WW2.


I wonder what happened to them.


----------



## RoccoR (Feb 3, 2020)

RE:  Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground 
⁜→  et al, 

As I said in Posting #15686 (Jan 24, 2020), future criminal life-style is often predictable by reviewing the history of past criminal behaviors.  That applies equally to the future response of any Peace Plan that might be presented to the criminal; positions held by the Arab Palestinians.

Since the invitation to assist the UN Palestine Commission in the implementation of a peaceful solution to the "Question of Palestine," the Arab Palestinians adopted a political posture of belligerence, hostility and violence.

"The Arabs of Palestine consider that any attempt by the Jews or any power group of powers to establish a Jewish state in Arab territory is an act of aggression which will be resisted in self-defense."

"It is very unwise and fruitless to ask any commission to proceed to Palestine because not a single Arab will cooperate with the said Commission."

The "Arabs of Palestine cannot recognize the Balfour Declaration, the Mandate of Palestine or any situation arising or derived therefrom." ​*(COMMENT)*

There is NO reason in the world to suggest that the majority of the Arab League or the Arab Palestinians would adopt a peaceful posture or any non-violence solution to the conflict.  They are people who have repeatedly provided support for acts of terrorism and anti-Semitism. 

I cannot _(for the life of me)_ understand why any peaceful nation would provide any further support to the Arab Palestinian Regime.

_

_
Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Hollie (Feb 3, 2020)

José said:


> > Originally posted by *Hollie*
> > Islamic terrorists expected up to give up Islamic terrorism?
> >
> > That’s just, you know, _racist_™️ or something.
> ...



You seem not to have noticed that some societies (oddly, non-islamist societies), have managed to overcome religious, tribal alliances and joined the modern world. I would cite Hong Kong, Vietnam, South Korea and Israel to name a few. It is possible to overcome adversity and some societies _can_ take control of their future, Some, not all.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 3, 2020)

Forget two states, Trump’s plan prescribes apartheid


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Feb 3, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Forget two states, Trump’s plan prescribes apartheid



In some ways she's right, but the Palestinians have done this to themselves by rejecting 98% of the West Bank and a shared Old City of Jerusalem in the past.  So the deals will keep getting worse and worse for them.  Whoever doesn't learn from the past is condemned to repeat those mistakes.  Or make even worse mistakes.


----------



## Hollie (Feb 3, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Forget two states, Trump’s plan prescribes apartheid



Another silly, false analogy to "apartheid".


----------



## flacaltenn (Feb 3, 2020)

Mindful said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



Lots of people in leadership HERE that I can't stand..  (RUSSIA RUSSIA RUSSIA.. emoluments  )..   But there ARE issues about living in limbo for over 50 years now... It's not ALL the Izzies fault of course.. But, it needs to be fixed.  And nothing gets fixed without bonifide representation.. I personally think she's a better spokesperson and not so repetitive and shrill...


----------



## Shusha (Feb 3, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Forget two states, Trump’s plan prescribes apartheid



This article is heavy on rhetoric and light on substance.  ("Wild-eyed Zionist fanatics" pah-leeze, can we order up some credible journalism, here?)

About the only sentence which even TRIES to discuss the plan is this one:

_The envisaged Palestinian entity ... lacks any trappings of statehood: Sovereignty, contiguous territories, a capital, control of borders, armed forces, etc._

What counter-offers could Palestine make to solve these vague complaints?  What else is needed to meet the criteria of sovereignty?  How can the territories be made contiguous?  What is needed in order for a city to be a capital?  What is meant by "control of borders"?  What sort of armed forces?  Also items she forgot to mention, but should have: control over airspace, control over territorial waters.

Before you go all, "But Palestine MUST have a military or else!" on me, a couple things.  There are 21 countries in the world with no armed forces, either by choice or by restriction from another State.  So no, she doesn't have to have a military.  Also, remember this is a PEACE Accord.  The base assumption is that the two States agree not to attack each other and that peace is in the BEST INTERESTS of BOTH Parties.  Going all Gaza after signing a peace agreement is going to be BAD for the Palestinians.  And it will be the responsibility of Palestine to DEMONSTRATE its peaceful nature by agreeing to be monitored by Israel and actively working to prevent the importation of weapons, terrorism, "freedom fighting" and playing the happy little martyrs game.


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## Shusha (Feb 3, 2020)

For example, discuss contiguity and enclaves.  I see three options.

1.  A plan in which the borders between the two States follow the people resulting in a Swiss cheesy border on both sides with some creative transportation work-arounds so that people don't have to cross international borders to get to work.  

2.  A plan with contiguous borders in which Jews and Arabs are forcibly displaced from their residences so that everyone ends up in the "right" State.

3.  A plan with contiguous borders in which Jews and Arabs are left in place and become incorporated into their State of residence.  

Team Palestine seems to be in favour of door #2, as icky as it is.


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## Shusha (Feb 3, 2020)

For example, discuss control of borders, territorial waters, airspace. 

I agree these things are NECESSARY for sovereignty and thus, Palestine should have them.  (Note its perfectly fine for one State to be completely enclosed by another State.  There are several of them in the world.)

How can we give Palestine this control while STILL ensuring Israel's security?  (And also protecting the lives of Palestinians by ensuring Israel never has to defend itself.) 

I would propose a reversal of the fundamental premise of the clauses in the Trump Framework.  The current Framework prioritizes Israel's security, creates a normalization of Israeli security control and conditions removal of security on "good behaviour" by the Palestinians.  I suggest we reverse this and make Palestine's sovereignty the default and expect its normalization at some point in the future.  Its a subtle shift in attitude, and won't make much difference in practical terms for the near future, but its a necessary step for full Palestinian sovereignty.  

That said, any peace deal will HAVE to confront Israeli need for security.


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## José (Feb 3, 2020)

> *FOREVERYOUNG436*
> It's equally as horrible to assimilate refugees. Don't you think my father would still like to live in the DP camp he was in after WW2? Don't you think my mom would still want to be in that tent that she lived in when she first came to Israel? What could they be thinking?





> *FOREVERYOUNG436*
> In some ways she's right, but the Palestinians have done this to themselves by rejecting 98% of the West Bank and a shared Old City of Jerusalem in the past. So the deals will keep getting worse and worse for them. Whoever doesn't learn from the past is condemned to repeat those mistakes. Or make even worse mistakes.



"The Arabs of Palestine consider that *any attempt by the Jews or any power group of powers* to establish a Jewish state in Arab territory is an act of aggression which will be resisted in self-defense."

The "Arabs of Palestine *cannot recognize the Balfour Declaration*, the Mandate of Palestine or any situation arising or derived therefrom."




Rocco used different words to say exactly what I said in the red, bolded part:



> What do you call a political entity designed by foreign powers, *with no historical and popular legitimacy*, without a military, crammed with refugees dreaming of going home, crisscrossed by ethnically segregated roads, with adjacent settlements, checkpoints and military bases between the "cantons", bridges and tunnels "uniting" its disconnected pieces?



The palestinian leaders Rocco cited were rejecting the UN partition plan in 1948 because it was a farce, a fake palestinian homeland devised by the international community *with no historical and popular legitimacy*.

The very same reason palestinians leaders and society rejected the "deal of the century" in 2020... because it is a pseudo palestinian homeland imposed on them, not the ancient historic land they call home.

*Peel Commision Partition Plan* = 70% of Palestine = fake Palestine = rejected

*UN Partition Plan* = 45% of Palestine = fake Palestine = rejected

*Rabin - Arafat* = 22% of Palestine = fake Palestine = rejected

*Barak - Arafat* = 22% of Palestine = fake Palestine = rejected

Rocco's quotation is exactly the reason the "deal of the century" and all the other partition plans were rejected in the past and will continue to be rejected in the future (if proposed)...

It's a fake Palestine envisioned by Trump and Netanyahu... Peel, UN, Rabin and Barak's plans were ethnic corrals... Trump's plan goes one step further... it concieves a series of *fully fledged ethnic enclaves* surrounded by the jewish ethnocracy from all sides, not the real homeland that extends from the river to sea... the only one that has "*historical and popular legitimacy*" in the eyes of the palestinian population.


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## José (Feb 3, 2020)

The problem with message boards is that the group mentality people display is so strong they don't agree or disagree with what people say they agree or disagree according to whom is talking to them.

When a zionist like Rocco and an anti-zionist like myself say exactly the same thing people agree with the former and disagree with the latter... go figure...  

In any case, let's hope people will agree with what I said now that it was confirmed by Rocco, the zionist.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Feb 3, 2020)

José said:


> > *FOREVERYOUNG436*
> > It's equally as horrible to assimilate refugees. Don't you think my father would still like to live in the DP camp he was in after WW2? Don't you think my mom would still want to be in that tent that she lived in when she first came to Israel? What could they be thinking?
> 
> 
> ...



*because it is a pseudo palestinian homeland imposed on them, not the ancient historic land they call home.*

Where/when was this historic homeland?


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## ForeverYoung436 (Feb 3, 2020)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> José said:
> 
> 
> > > *FOREVERYOUNG436*
> ...



It never existed.  On the other hand, Eretz Yisrael is the ancient and historic homeland of the Jews.


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## Coyote (Feb 3, 2020)

Oh here we go again denying homelands.  How predictable.  We just can't seem to move beyond accepting the fact that this area is the homeland to two different sets of people and therein lies the problem.


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## Coyote (Feb 3, 2020)

Shusha said:


> For example, discuss contiguity and enclaves.  I see three options.
> 
> 1.  A plan in which the borders between the two States follow the people resulting in a Swiss cheesy border on both sides with some creative transportation work-arounds so that people don't have to cross international borders to get to work.
> 
> ...



#3 would be ideal but unlikely I'm guessing.

#2 would be criminal and as a member of Team Palestine I'm totally opposed to any involuntary displacements.

#1 probably the best work around and any solution will most likely incorporate some version of this.


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## Shusha (Feb 3, 2020)

José said:


> The problem with message boards is that the group mentality people display is so strong they don't agree or disagree with what people say they agree or disagree according to whom is talking to them.
> 
> When a zionist like Rocco and an anti-zionist like myself say exactly the same thing people agree with the former and disagree with the latter... go figure...
> 
> In any case, let's hope people will agree with what I said now that it was confirmed by Rocco, the zionist.



Um. We ALL agree that Arabs will apparently never agree to a Jewish State. 

But RoccoR doesn’t use antisemitic tropes to justify Arab refusal to do so. 

Shrug. If you force Israel into a zero sum game, Arabs are going to get the zero.


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## Coyote (Feb 3, 2020)

Shusha said:


> For example, discuss control of borders, territorial waters, airspace.
> 
> I agree these things are NECESSARY for sovereignty and thus, Palestine should have them.  (Note its perfectly fine for one State to be completely enclosed by another State.  There are several of them in the world.)
> 
> ...



That is interesting and intrigues me, but I'm having a hard time visualizing it.  Can you expand on this one thing?



> That said, any peace deal will HAVE to confront Israeli need for security.



I agree on that point.


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## Coyote (Feb 3, 2020)

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Forget two states, Trump’s plan prescribes apartheid
> ...




I agree with you on this - Palestine does not have to have a military and it's important to keep in mind that this agreement is coming off of a defensive war which Israel won.  It seems reminds me of the agreements we made with Japan after WW2.  No military.  I think that is good point to keep.


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## Coyote (Feb 3, 2020)

Hollie said:


> José said:
> 
> 
> > > Originally posted by *Hollie*
> ...



And oddly, there Muslim majority societies such as Senegal that can join that list.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 3, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
> ⁜→  et al,
> 
> As I said in Posting #15686 (Jan 24, 2020), future criminal life-style is often predictable by reviewing the history of past criminal behaviors.  That applies equally to the future response of any Peace Plan that might be presented to the criminal; positions held by the Arab Palestinians.
> ...



Yet, I've heard that some of these Arab states are working with Israel  to resolve the conflict without violence.  So why wouldn't there be a reason they might want to end this conflict given the more urgent and destabilizing issues emerging in the area?


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## Shusha (Feb 3, 2020)

Coyote said:


> #3 would be ideal but unlikely I'm guessing.
> 
> #2 would be criminal and as a member of Team Palestine I'm totally opposed to any involuntary displacements.
> 
> #1 probably the best work around and any solution will most likely incorporate some version of this.



Exactly.  We agree.  #3 is optimal, but "off the table" as far as Palestine is concerned.  We might morally disagree with that position, and for good reasons, but ... shrug, what can you do?

We agree.  #2 is criminal and a violation of human rights (not to mention TOTALLY hypocritical of the Arab Palestinians as in "you must not remove us, but we have the right to remove you" sort of way.)  Also off the table.  

Therefore, Swiss Cheesy is the only viable, realistic solution to the problem.  I'll suggest, then, that complaints against the Plan because "contiguity" fall into the "not real problems" category.  Though there is still room to argue "we need a little more territory" from the Palestinians.


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## Hollie (Feb 3, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Hamas obviously has a military wing so I’m not sure why you would claim Palestine has no military.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Feb 3, 2020)

Hollie said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



They are talking about Trump's peace plan, under which Palestine would have no military.


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## Coyote (Feb 3, 2020)

Hollie said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



I didn't claim that.  Perhaps you should reread my post.


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## Hollie (Feb 3, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > José said:
> ...



Let’s hope they can keep their islam under control.


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## Coyote (Feb 3, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > #3 would be ideal but unlikely I'm guessing.
> ...



It's not a "not real" problem because no matter what the logistics of it ARE problematic.  So to shuffle it off as a "not real" problem is in my opinion unreal.

Just for reference can you think of any other country that has had to deal with something like this in terms of borders?


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## Hollie (Feb 3, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


I did mis-read your comment. My apologies.


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## Shusha (Feb 3, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > For example, discuss control of borders, territorial waters, airspace.
> ...




If I understand you correctly about what you want clarification on...

The wording of the Plan as it stand now is:  

1.  The State of Palestine shall be fully demilitarized and remain so.  
2.  The State of Palestine will have security forces capable of managing internal security and preventing terrorist attacks within the State of Palestine and against the State of Israel, the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan and the Arab Republic of Egypt ... These specific capabilities may not violate the principle that the State of Palestine shall remain fully demilitarized, derogate the State of Israel's over-riding security responsibility and will be agreed upon by the State of Israel and the State of Palestine.
3.  This security protocol is intended to continue unless and until there is a different agreement by both the State of Israel and the State of Palestine.  

I would argue that, in principle, this needs to be reframed.  

It is recognized that the State of Palestine, having attained full and recognized sovereignty and agreeing to live in peace with her neighbors and abide by the principles as laid out in the Charter of the United Nations, shall embrace the responsibility of retaining military forces for the explicit purpose of protecting her citizens and territorial integrity from aggression. This principle will be temporarily mitigated by voluntary compliance of supervision by the State of Israel.

1.  The State of Palestine shall be fully demilitarized for a period of not less than 50 years.  
2.  The State of Palestine and the State of Israel will have a mutual defense pact in all cases of external aggression.
3.  The State of Palestine will have security forces capable of managing internal security and preventing terrorist attacks within the State of Palestine and against the State of Israel, the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan and the Arab Republic of Egypt. These security forces will work closely with supervising forces from the State of Israel, especially with respect to border security.
4.  Should the State of Palestine, or its security forces, violate the principles of peaceful co-existence with her neighbors, the State of Israel shall have the immediate and unilateral responsibility for the over-riding security for both the State of Palestine and the State of Israel.  
5.  Following the period of demilitarization an international Committee consisting of the State of Israel, the United States, the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, the Arab Republic of Egypt and five member States agreed upon by the four permanent Committee members will agree to either release the State of Palestine from this requirement, or to renew it for a period of time at their discretion. 

(The above its perfect, but I had 15 minutes to work on it instead of 3 years).  

The principle is just a shift in attitude.  The State of Palestine has a right to a military force and to defend itself.  That right has been temporarily restricted but will be restored with co-operation and continued peace in the best interests of both nations.  

I also feel like there should be a really big stick here, but can't for the life of me figure out what it should be.


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## rylah (Feb 3, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Oh here we go again denying homelands.  How predictable.  We just can't seem to move beyond accepting the fact that this area is the homeland to two different sets of people and therein lies the problem.



Arabs couldn't accept Israel's revival,
demanding domination over the entire middle east.

The problem lies in the fact they can't understand land belongs to a people, not otherwise.
And this land belongs to only one people, and in fact one of the longest records in history of a connection between a people and its land.

What do Arabs have, forging a name the meaning of which they don't even know?


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## Shusha (Feb 3, 2020)

Coyote said:


> So why wouldn't there be a reason they might want to end this conflict given the more urgent and destabilizing issues emerging in the area?



Yep.  The Arab world is choosing up sides whether they are going to be part of the "destabilizing" or the "stabilizing".  They present a nice united front for the most part, but when Iran comes knocking ... 

The sad part is that Abbas seems to be choosing the wrong side, and ultimately what I believe to be the losing side.  And its going to hurt.


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## P F Tinmore (Feb 3, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
> ⁜→  et al,
> 
> As I said in Posting #15686 (Jan 24, 2020), future criminal life-style is often predictable by reviewing the history of past criminal behaviors.  That applies equally to the future response of any Peace Plan that might be presented to the criminal; positions held by the Arab Palestinians.
> ...


Your usual hit piece.

What would the US say if someone wanted to hack off everything west of the Mississippi and give it to foreign settlers?


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## rylah (Feb 3, 2020)

Shusha said:


> For example, discuss control of borders, territorial waters, airspace.
> 
> I agree these things are NECESSARY for sovereignty and thus, Palestine should have them.  (Note its perfectly fine for one State to be completely enclosed by another State.  There are several of them in the world.)
> 
> ...



Maybe I'm missing something in the suggestion,
do You mean AFTER demilitarization?


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## toastman (Feb 3, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE:  Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
> ...



How is that in any way related to Israel or the Palestinians?


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## Coyote (Feb 3, 2020)

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Oh here we go again denying homelands.  How predictable.  We just can't seem to move beyond accepting the fact that this area is the homeland to two different sets of people and therein lies the problem.
> ...



And that view is exactly the problem.


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## Coyote (Feb 3, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...




Interesting what a shift reframing it does.  It recognizes the essential rights.  

I'm curious how the agreements made with Japan were worded after WW2, I never looked other than very generally.  I wonder if there is anything applicable there?


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## P F Tinmore (Feb 3, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...





Coyote said:


> Palestine does not have to have a military and it's important to keep in mind that this agreement is coming off of a defensive war which Israel won.


Which war was that?

What war did the Palestinians lose?


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## Coyote (Feb 3, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > So why wouldn't there be a reason they might want to end this conflict given the more urgent and destabilizing issues emerging in the area?
> ...




Abbas' leadership is not very strong and he is not very popular.

I think parts of the Arab world is maturing in the area of world wide geo-politics and economies.  I think they realize making peace with Israel is in everyone's best interest.  IMO only.  But seeing the refugees from the conflicts in Iraq and Syria, the growth of much more sophisticated terrorist ideologies that are destabilizing to themselves.  I don't know...


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## flacaltenn (Feb 3, 2020)

Shusha said:


> For example, discuss control of borders, territorial waters, airspace.
> 
> I agree these things are NECESSARY for sovereignty and thus, Palestine should have them.  (Note its perfectly fine for one State to be completely enclosed by another State.  There are several of them in the world.)
> 
> ...



The whole "swiss cheezy" thing becomes a lot more palatable if governance of the Palestinians is largely on a LOCAL level.. Meaning there is no "top heavy" concentration of power at the federal level.. This is the "govt interface" that is MOST stable and offers the maximum CHOICE for Arabs that know all too well how "nation states" in the Mid East all become shotgun toting totalitarian dictatorships in short order..

It's STILL a 2 state solution if you don't press them for ceding their choices and freedom to a bulky fractured centralized govt that all the Intl 3rd party 'peace makers" expect. The "Federation of Palestine" under an Emirate plan would be composed of selected leadership from the City States or Emirates.  And ONLY have the powers required to front an internationally recognized team for diplomacy, deal with immigration and customs and borders, trade disputes, issue currency and passports, deliver the mail, etc..

But what the current plan LACKS (among other details) is the CONNECTIVITY of these Emirates and the neighboring Arab states for trade. This is another feature of the "idea catalogue" I'm pushing right now to folks to DC..

The military protection aspect for Palestine in the short term would better be solved by having Palis negotiate with Egypt and Jordan and yes ISRAEL for mutual defense.. They would be lunch meat for decades expecting to hold off Iran or Caliphate determined radicals with their own armed forces. And it's not wildly unreasonable for Jordan and Egypt to agree given the progress made from "mutual defense" talks with Israel in the past years..

ALSO -- land is fungible.. And it's reasonable to ask Jordan and Egypt to kick in some to the "Federation of Palestine"..  Have them give THEIR Pali refugees a choice between the limbo "non citizen status" they have there now or relocate to areas ADJACENT to the borders of the new "federation" and connected for transit and trade...


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## Coyote (Feb 3, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



They in conjunction with the Arab states lost the war against the state of Israel.  The plain fact is - Israel is not going away.  And for the Palestinians rights and ability to live prosperously and peacefully, that needs to be recognized so something can actually happen to allow the Palestinians to come into their own and define themselves by something other than conflict.

At some point, if you care about the Palestinians AS a people, with rights and a homeland, you need to recognize this and recognize that this is a shared homeland.

So Israel isn't going away.  It won't dissolve nor should it.  How can the international community help the Palestinians realize a future?


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## Indeependent (Feb 3, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


It is possible that Syria invading and taking over Lebanon encouraged Iraq to invade Syria.
In either case, no one seems to care.
Why doesn’t anyone care?
Because no other nation wants to upset them and be invaded.
It’s a cause/effect that had been apparent for over 70 years.


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## P F Tinmore (Feb 3, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


So, what would be different than what we have now?


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## rylah (Feb 3, 2020)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Exactly how?
That's exactly the remedy.

Arabs want domination over the entire middle east, Israel says 'nah, this 1% is mine and has my name written on it, I will never inherit with You, and You will never eat me up, ever."


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## Coyote (Feb 3, 2020)

flacaltenn said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > For example, discuss control of borders, territorial waters, airspace.
> ...



Agree with you here...and the idea of a single bulky centralized state is from our modern idea of what a nation state should look like.  And maybe it's time to ignore that.

But the second part - not sure about.  What powers would be excluded from this?



> But what the current plan LACKS (among other details) *is the CONNECTIVITY of these Emirates and the neighboring Arab states for trade. *This is another feature of the "idea catalogue" I'm pushing right now to folks to DC..



I think that is what was also bothering me, but I couldn't clearly identify it, and was thinking more in that they don't have direct access to major rivers, their own ports or other borders....trade is awfully dependent on going through Israel.



> The military protection aspect for Palestine in the short term would better be solved by having Palis negotiate with Egypt and Jordan and yes ISRAEL for mutual defense.. They would be lunch meat for decades expecting to hold off Iran or Caliphate determined radicals with their own armed forces. And it's not wildly unreasonable for Jordan and Egypt to agree given the progress made from "mutual defense" talks with Israel in the past years..



Mutual regional defense pacts?  I think Israel would always have to be involved though.



> ALSO -- land is fungible.. And it's reasonable to ask Jordan and Egypt to kick in some to the "Federation of Palestine"..  Have them give THEIR Pali refugees a choice between the limbo "non citizen status" they have there now or relocate to areas ADJACENT to the borders of the new "federation" and connected for transit and trade...



Agree!


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## Coyote (Feb 3, 2020)

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...




When a land that belongs to multiple peoples who view the land as belonging to only one of them - it creates problems for the other peoples who feel it is their land as well.


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## Indeependent (Feb 3, 2020)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


That is correct and most of the Eastern Hemisphere shares this issue.
It almost always comes down to might makes right.


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## P F Tinmore (Feb 3, 2020)

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...





Coyote said:


> They in conjunction with the Arab states lost the war against the state of Israel.


Palestine never had an army. They never attacked Israel.

They were not part of the1948 war.


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## Coyote (Feb 3, 2020)

Indeependent said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...



Yup, that is the reality regardless of all the flowery ethics and moral arguments (which I tend to agree with) - it is the way things are


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## Coyote (Feb 3, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



You don't need a standing army to wage war or attack.  Witness ISIS and Al Queda (not that I am comparing their actions to the Palestinian) - but the point is attack and defense isn't dependent on the traditional army.


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## Indeependent (Feb 3, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


The UN relies so much on the US that the US gets to dictate policy.
The rest of the Arab world has more that it’s own share of unrest and doesn’t want to get involved.
It’s amazing how many Uber and Lyft drivers escaped from Egypt.


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## P F Tinmore (Feb 3, 2020)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Does the land belong to the native population or to foreign settlers?


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## Coyote (Feb 3, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...



Tricky question.  Who is defined as "native" and at what point did they or do they become "native"?

I think the land belongs to many people - and certainly the Jewish people and the Palestinian people qualify in that regard.  

Is there really a point in rehashing this?


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## Shusha (Feb 3, 2020)

Coyote said:


> It's not a "not real" problem because no matter what the logistics of it ARE problematic.  So to shuffle it off as a "not real" problem is in my opinion unreal.
> 
> Just for reference can you think of any other country that has had to deal with something like this in terms of borders?



Okay, so I've been using "not a real problem" quite a bit.  (Though I think rylah actually said it first).  Perhaps I should explain what I mean by that.  

"Not a real problem" is code for things that one side or the other uses to shut down negotiations, rather than being either a practical problem which needs to be solved, or being a position which is strongly held by either of the Parties for reasons of national importance.  

Contiguity is one such "not a real problem".  As long as people can freely travel in their own States and not have to cross international borders to get to work, then its not a real problem.  (And its actually an improvement over today's situation).  It just needs a work around.  The reason it is presented as a "real problem" when it is not is to continue to give credence to the demonizing notion of "apartheid".  Its a way of keeping up the complaints when there is a perfectly reasonable solution to the problem.  

Sovereignty over the Jordan Valley is a real problem.  From the Israeli side, its a real security problem.  3 minute response times to incoming rockets, for example.  Long border with no control over weapons smuggling.  From the Palestinian side, it limits trade and agriculture.  Real problem.  

Make sense?


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## Olde Europe (Feb 3, 2020)

Coyote said:


> #2 would be criminal and as a member of Team Palestine I'm totally opposed to any involuntary displacements.



Israel, withdrawing their criminally occupying settlers from the occupied West Bank (except in cases of mutually agreed land swaps), would not only be not criminal, it would be enforcing the law.  Moreover, without that, there will be no peaceful, lasting agreement.


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## Coyote (Feb 3, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > It's not a "not real" problem because no matter what the logistics of it ARE problematic.  So to shuffle it off as a "not real" problem is in my opinion unreal.
> ...




Yup, I see what you mean - thanks for elaborating


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## ForeverYoung436 (Feb 3, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Correct, because they were never a country.


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## Coyote (Feb 3, 2020)

Olde Europe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > #2 would be criminal and as a member of Team Palestine I'm totally opposed to any involuntary displacements.
> ...




That is where it get's difficult.  And here is why, imo:

Some of those communities (settlements) were built in areas that had had traditionally Jewish populations driven out through conflict.

Some of those communities are now multigenerational.

Some of those communities are legally bought land.

Some of those communities are mere "outposts" with a handful of people and tents (not necessarily legal in Israel's courts).

Some of those communities are on questionably or even illegally obtained land.

Given that - at what point do you justify expelling civilians?  How do you decide?  If you expel them...does Israel have the right to expel Arabs?

My opinion is in the case of 1,2 and 3 involuntary expulsion would be criminal.

In the case of 4 and 5 courts should decide.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 3, 2020)

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


The Palestinians were virtually all unarmed civilians attacked by Israel's military that included WWII military equipment.


----------



## rylah (Feb 3, 2020)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



More like Arabs want domination over the entire middle east, 
Israel says 'nah, this 1% is mine and has my name written on it, 
I will never inherit with You, and You will never eat me up, ever."

Now back to the theme of the thread,
do you start realizing how a century of zero sum game is now turning on the Arabs?


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## P F Tinmore (Feb 3, 2020)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Unsubstantiated Israeli talking point.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 3, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



It isn't that simple.  In the 1948 conflict, they too formed militias and were involved in attacks and fighting.  Calling them all "unarmed civilians" is dishonest. 

And it doesn't alter the point - war does not need traditional armies.  Look at ISIS.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Feb 3, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...



Most "Palestinians" came from Arab countries as recent settlers after the Zionists created more employment opportunities.  They are not "native" to the land or descended from the now-defunct Canaanites.  On the other hand, Israelis speak the same language that was spoken 2,000 years ago, as well as use the same currency (proven by archaeology), and celebrate the same national holidays.  Most Arabacized names of the cities and towns in Israel and Judea (or the West Bank) come from the Hebrew.  So Jews aren't "foreign" to Israel.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 3, 2020)

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...



On the first - I disagree in what you said that it only belongs to one people. 

On the second - yes, I agree, and in line with that they need to stop holding the refugees hostage and allow them to integrate into their states or, to Palestine should that be achieved.  You can't continue keeping people in limbo like that to serve political purposes.


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## toastman (Feb 3, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



Every war they waged in Israel...


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## Indeependent (Feb 3, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


The Palis were never attacked; perhaps that’s why there are 6 million of them at the moment.


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## Coyote (Feb 3, 2020)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...




Actually, thought there was SOME Arab immigration for jobs there is nothing to show that "most" came for that purpose.  Neither group is foreign.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Feb 3, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Well, I was just responding to your statement that Palestine never had an army.  Most countries have armies.  Even Vatican City has the Swiss guards.


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## rylah (Feb 3, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



A new edition of the '1000 and One Nights of Arabia'?
Somehow your anecdotes didn't prevent Arabs from massacring Jews.


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## toastman (Feb 3, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...





P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



What time period are you talking about ?


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## Olde Europe (Feb 3, 2020)

Coyote said:


> That is where it get's difficult.  And here is why, imo:
> 
> Some of those communities (settlements) were built in areas that had had traditionally Jewish populations driven out through conflict.
> 
> ...



No, that's not "difficult", it's mere whataboutery of no value other than for the purpose of hasbara.  Injecting one's own population into occupied territory is illegal.  It is no less illegal just because it's long standing.  No occupier can "legally" buy occupied land.  Israel is at fault here, and has to correct it (or otherwise hope to get an agreement on land swaps).  That has been confirmed again, and again, and again.


----------



## rylah (Feb 3, 2020)

Coyote said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Except the one who has actually written INVADER on the forehead,
and marches under the flag of 4 various Caliphates that invaded several continents.

Who would that be?


----------



## Shusha (Feb 3, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> What would the US say if someone wanted to hack off everything west of the Mississippi and give it to foreign settlers?



On the other hand, what would the US have a right to say about "hacking off" pieces of the US for First Nations sovereignty and self-determination.  No one is buying your crap about "foreign settlers".


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## Shusha (Feb 3, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Abbas' leadership is not very strong and he is not very popular.
> 
> I think parts of the Arab world is maturing in the area of world wide geo-politics and economies.  I think they realize making peace with Israel is in everyone's best interest.  IMO only.  But seeing the refugees from the conflicts in Iraq and Syria, the growth of much more sophisticated terrorist ideologies that are destabilizing to themselves.  I don't know...



Exactly.  But Abbas is likely to be replaced by someone MORE extremist, rather than less.  Which leaves us, what?  Iran, Hezbollah, Hamas, West Bank on the one side and Israel, Saudia Arabia, UAE, Bahrain, Oman on the other and a WHOLE LOT of wishy washy. I'd hope Egypt and Jordan are smart enough well, not to be stupid.


----------



## rylah (Feb 3, 2020)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



The problem is,
in the failure to understand the connection between the 1st and the 2nd statements.
That's is a reverse cause and result.

.
They wanted to submit the entire region to Islam, now submit to the only non-Muslim one.
They insisted there could be no partition, eventually it is all  Israel.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Feb 3, 2020)

Olde Europe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > That is where it get's difficult.  And here is why, imo:
> ...



* Injecting one's own population into occupied territory is illegal. It is no less illegal just because it's long standing.*

I agree. Can we get all the Muslims to fit back into Saudi Arabia?


----------



## Shusha (Feb 3, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> So, what would be different than what we have now?



With respect specifically to military concerns?  Nothing.  Absolutely nothing.  Because there is no way in hell Israel is going to allow Arab Palestine to be be Gaza-ified in any peace deal.  Tried that once.  Israel learns from her mistakes.  

BUT, it will allow Palestine to develop peaceful institutions with full sovereignty other than the military restrictions, and eventually, an end to Israel's military supervision.  

My thought is that if Palestine insists on having military capabilities, its clear she is not ready for Statehood.


----------



## flacaltenn (Feb 3, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Agree with you here...and the idea of a single bulky centralized state is from our modern idea of what a nation state should look like. And maybe it's time to ignore that.
> 
> But the second part - not sure about. What powers would be excluded from this?



For Arabs in the Middle East, the "nation state" was an option of last resort to KICK OUT lingering Imperialism.. It's NOT and never will be their preferred pol. model.. And the frictions that the Pali on the street have with the PA is that it's not a "friendly interface" to government when you're concerned about taxation, or licensing or zoning laws.. ALL of that should be on as local a level as possible and MAYBE NOT be "uniform" throughout the Pali centers of living.. It's that UNIFORMITY that a central govt tries to asserts that rubs them the wrong way.. 

Me TOO for that matter..  THat's why our Constitution clearly spelled out the ONLY MATTERS that would fall to the Federal govt with all other decisions delegated to the states and towns respectively.. It's the same kind of starting point as we had... 

Not for me to decide how much "freedom and autonomy" they cede to their "national govt" or federation.. But the ones I listed make SENSE to handle at that level.. 



Coyote said:


> I think that is what was also bothering me, but I couldn't clearly identify it, and was thinking more in that they don't have direct access to major rivers, their own ports or other borders....trade is awfully dependent on going through Israel.



Yep..  80 pages, a bunch of map analytics, and not much in the way of CONNECTING the Palis to their fractured selves or the world.. Which is why I'm pitching a highway in my paper that CONNECTS all the pali city centers AND the neighboring Arab states (thru proper ports of entry)... 




 

Highway is mostly built over EXISTING roads along the Jordan River with PARTS of it on the Jordan side. Also has a feeder to Egypt going thru EXISTING ports of entry for custom...  NO connection to Gaza or Lebanon YET -- but depending on people coming to their senses and SMELLING the prosperity, maybe soon in the future... 

This is WELL WITHIN the large scope of "economic development" that Trump plan was promising.. But it was NOT part of "the deal".... Total miles of constructed (not future) road is under about 200 miles long..


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 3, 2020)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...





ForeverYoung436 said:


> Most "Palestinians" came from Arab countries as recent settlers after the Zionists created more employment opportunities.


Israeli bullshit, of course. The Zionists kept economic improvements to themselves.


----------



## toastman (Feb 3, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Actually, he is absolutely correct. You simply cannot handle the truth, as usual. Your take on Israel - "Palestine" history in extremely distorted Tinmore.


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## Shusha (Feb 3, 2020)

Olde Europe said:


> No, that's not "difficult", it's mere whataboutery of no value other than for the purpose of hasbara.  Injecting one's own population into occupied territory is illegal.  It is no less illegal just because it's long standing.  No occupier can "legally" buy occupied land.  Israel is at fault here, and has to correct it (or otherwise hope to get an agreement on land swaps).  That has been confirmed again, and again, and again.



If we are ever going to resolve this conflict, we are going to need to dispel these errors.

There is no occupation.

It is not illegal for people to migrate into their own sovereign territory or into disputed territory or even into other's sovereign territory.  (See Western Sahara, Cyprus, Timore-Leste, Azerbaijan)

No population in these circumstances has EVER been required to be forcibly displaced.

Private ownership is not sovereignty.  (People who buy land can not be forced from their residence.)


----------



## toastman (Feb 3, 2020)

BTW Tinmore, aren't you tired of losing literally EVERY single arguments/debate? 

I mean, I don't think you've been correct one single time when posting about the Israel-Palestine conflict.....


----------



## flacaltenn (Feb 3, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > It's not a "not real" problem because no matter what the logistics of it ARE problematic.  So to shuffle it off as a "not real" problem is in my opinion unreal.
> ...



If Jordan has "skin in the game" to make this work, there'll be no end in cooperating to secure that border. Same with Egypt. Israel needs IDF outposts and routes to the borders.. THey will NO LONGER NEED to do policing with the military and some of those "settlement areas" that are IDF policing outposts, might eventually close..


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## Coyote (Feb 3, 2020)

Indeependent said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



yes.  They were.  The conflicts surrounding the end of the mandate included Jewish militias attacking Palestinians just as included Palestinians.  But it is a pointless argument that accomplishes nothing today


Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Abbas' leadership is not very strong and he is not very popular.
> ...



All good questions...


----------



## rylah (Feb 3, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Yep like drying the swamps and ending Malaria in the land,
new sanitary system in Jerusalem....

Nothing that caused Arabs to multiply 3 fold in record times not seen anywhere in the region.


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## flacaltenn (Feb 3, 2020)

Olde Europe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > #2 would be criminal and as a member of Team Palestine I'm totally opposed to any involuntary displacements.
> ...



So you're STILL ignoring the fact that Israel TRIED that approach with the PA when they TOTALLY VACATED GAZA are ya???? 

That plan can go to the shredder... It's Einstein's definition of insanity... Learn from history...


----------



## Shusha (Feb 3, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...




Okay, so let's look at what the real problems are, then?

1.  Jordan Valley
2.  Old City Jerusalem (Temple Mount)
3.  Security for Israel
4.  Trade access for Palestine to international markets
5.  Ending the refugee issue (both real and imagined refugees)

Did I miss anything?


----------



## Coyote (Feb 3, 2020)

flacaltenn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Agree with you here...and the idea of a single bulky centralized state is from our modern idea of what a nation state should look like. And maybe it's time to ignore that.
> ...




A concept like that would go far to address concerns!  I like that!


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## Coyote (Feb 3, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



Not that I can think of - I think you hit on them.


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## flacaltenn (Feb 3, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Aint BullShit TInmore..  Or like a local talk show host says "Bovine Scatology".... 

One of the largest sources of income for middle class Palis in the West Bank are jobs and trade with Israel..

The jobs part is more than fair and mutually beneficial... But the trade part is quite unfair under military occupation and policing right now... 

Who you think has the MONEY to build new fancy cities and settlements in the Pali WB?  It aint coming from spice carts or falafel stands...


----------



## Shusha (Feb 3, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Cool.  Do you think they are problems that can be solved?  I do.  Here's my thoughts.

5.  The refugee issue is a non-starter.  Its an international problem with international solutions.  (Just like all other refugee crises).  The problem to be solved is not the "return".  The problem to be solved is to make sure that every individual who is currently not living in acceptable circumstances is provided with safety, security and dignity.  The choice should be on the remaining refugees (I believe about 250,000 in Lebanon and 150,000 in Jordan currently without citizenship status or acceptable living conditions), to be repatriated to a State of Palestine (their homeland), to be fully incorporated with all rights into their country of birth or to be resettled in a third country.  

Agreed?


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## Olde Europe (Feb 3, 2020)

flacaltenn said:


> Olde Europe said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Say, Flac, how is it that a few harmless rockets (by Israel's standards) flying from Gaza justify crimes in the West Bank?

Moreover, have you ever asked yourself why Israel, despite overwhelming military and intelligence superiority, and several large-scale, mass murderous military incursions, couldn't get a ragtag militia in a tiny speck of land under control?  If you did, what was your answer?


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## Shusha (Feb 3, 2020)

2. The Old City of Jerusalem and the holy places.

While I feel slightly bad saying so, I think this is also a non-starter.  Israel just can't let the Old City and the holy places go.  The Trump Plan is absolutely correct in stating that the Old City and the holy and archaeological places are doing very well under the stewardship of Israel.  I can't say that we can expect that of the Palestinians.  

That said, some sort of fast-track for Muslims to visit the Muslim shrines would be the right thing to do.  

I think the Trump Plan got this one right.  But I know this is going to be a hard place for the Arabs to give up.


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## flacaltenn (Feb 3, 2020)

Olde Europe said:


> Say, Flac, how is it that a few harmless rockets (by Israel's standards) flying from Gaza justify crimes in the West Bank?



It doesn't.. Where'd you get the Israelis blaming the wrong rocket launchers?  The PA hates the Gaza govt.. They are in a formal cold war with occasional assassinations.

What I'm telling you is there is NOT ENOUGH STABILITY in Pali diplomatic/political representation to PREVENT another Pali Civil War and ending up with folks in charge of the WB that we're NEVER SIGNED UP for peace...

Every Israeli dragged long time Jewish residents screaming and kicking out of Gaza.. THat WAS a good faith exercise and it failed for reasons that STILL exist.. So when you DEMAND a repetition, it's just never gonna happen that way again..


----------



## Coyote (Feb 3, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



Actually I am going to add one more real problem I just thought of (so if you agree, add it to your list) - Gaza.

And yes, I agree on the refugee issue - it is an international problem, and it's time to step up to the plate and do what's right and handle it like any other refugee situation.  Your idea also mean that Palestine won't be flooded beyond what it can handle.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 3, 2020)

Olde Europe said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Olde Europe said:
> ...



I'm going to add something here...it's not really a "few harmless rockets" - it's the fact that any state has obligation to protect it's citizens, and those rockets do go into civilian areas and have caused damage and injury.

Would the US accept that if Mexico started flinging rockets over our border?  Not likely.  No state would.


----------



## flacaltenn (Feb 3, 2020)

Olde Europe said:


> Moreover, have you ever asked yourself why Israel, despite overwhelming military and intelligence superiority, and several large-scale, mass murderous military incursions, couldn't get a ragtag militia in a tiny speck of land under control? If you did, what was your answer?



They HAD a fairly good start at their OWN policing, but the Pali Civil war destroyed that progress as well... I wouldn't picture daily life in the WB as "out of control".. Israel has no plans to INTERN them in a walled encampment with no quality of life as Pali refugees in Syria and Lebanon now live.. Life is OK. It's just not on THEIR TERMS as it ought to be.. 

And reasonable people (even in Israel or like me) are TRYING to normalize their lives and get them out of limbo.

DEMANDING chit from EITHER side is not gonna chit done..


----------



## Coyote (Feb 3, 2020)

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...



You and I will never agree on this, so there is no point in going with it, wouldn't you agree?


----------



## Coyote (Feb 3, 2020)

flacaltenn said:


> Olde Europe said:
> 
> 
> > Moreover, have you ever asked yourself why Israel, despite overwhelming military and intelligence superiority, and several large-scale, mass murderous military incursions, couldn't get a ragtag militia in a tiny speck of land under control? If you did, what was your answer?
> ...




And also why I think Gaza should negotiated with as a separate entity.


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## Indeependent (Feb 3, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


You got a Link for those attacks?


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## Shusha (Feb 3, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Actually I am going to add one more real problem I just thought of (so if you agree, add it to your list) - Gaza.



Oh yeah.  That's a WHOLE 'nother.


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## Coyote (Feb 3, 2020)

Indeependent said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



I'm sure they've been discussed in one of the historical threads involving the Mandate era, that are pinned to the top of forum.  Otherwise I'm not going to derail this into a discussion that belongs in one of those threads.


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## Olde Europe (Feb 3, 2020)

Coyote said:


> I'm going to add something here...it's not really a "few harmless rockets" - it's the fact that *any state has obligation to protect it's citizens*, and those rockets do go into civilian areas and have caused damage and injury.



So, a de-militarized Palestine is a no-go, then, right?

BTW, I am investing considerable time expressing myself as precisely as I can.  I said harmless rockets "by Israel's standards" for a purpose.


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## Indeependent (Feb 3, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Translation...
There are Links on *Arab* sites.
Making any statements regarding undue aggression on either side is detailing the Thread and should be backed up with proof.

Perhaps we should establish a rule as to a past date that can be referenced and no earlier date in time.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 3, 2020)

Olde Europe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > I'm going to add something here...it's not really a "few harmless rockets" - it's the fact that *any state has obligation to protect it's citizens*, and those rockets do go into civilian areas and have caused damage and injury.
> ...


Is there any Arab nation that is demilitarized?


----------



## Coyote (Feb 3, 2020)

Olde Europe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > I'm going to add something here...it's not really a "few harmless rockets" - it's the fact that *any state has obligation to protect it's citizens*, and those rockets do go into civilian areas and have caused damage and injury.
> ...



Well...I view it like this:  as part of the Marshall plan we required the demilitarization of Japan.  In fact much of the Marshal plan was also an economic development plan as well.  The Palestinians have not been able to to stop aggressive attacks on Israel's civilian populace.  While I don't consider Israel a total angel in this, much of their military actions against the Palestinians have been in response to these attacks which no other state would be expected to tolerate.  I don't think it would be fair to expect Israel to accept a militerized state as part of the deal, particularly one within it's own borders, until that state has shown itself capable of showing it can stop these attacks and then some, given the long history of conflict.  I don't think any other nation would be expected to tolerate that.

The more I think of it...the more I think we should view the peace plan, somewhat, along the lines of the martial plan.


----------



## Olde Europe (Feb 3, 2020)

flacaltenn said:


> Olde Europe said:
> 
> 
> > Moreover, have you ever asked yourself why Israel, despite overwhelming military and intelligence superiority, and several large-scale, mass murderous military incursions, couldn't get a ragtag militia in a tiny speck of land under control? If you did, what was your answer?
> ...



So, that's a long-winded, meandering way of saying you have just as much of an answer to that question as I have, and it has been stumping me for quite some time.

Given they have the wherewithal to accomplish pretty much everything, including all of Gaza under tight surveillance 24/7, including the ability to go in and out without suffering much by way of casualties, my suggestion would be, they aren't really trying.  Assuming it's true (which would be quite a stretch), do you have an answer as to why that would be?


----------



## Coyote (Feb 3, 2020)

Shusha said:


> 2. The Old City of Jerusalem and the holy places.
> 
> While I feel slightly bad saying so, I think this is also a non-starter.  Israel just can't let the Old City and the holy places go.  The Trump Plan is absolutely correct in stating that the Old City and the holy and archaeological places are doing very well under the stewardship of Israel.  I can't say that we can expect that of the Palestinians.
> 
> ...




I would agree that as long as the status quo for Muslims and access to the Temple Mount is retained (but I would agree to allowing Jewish prayer ) then I think it should remain in Israeli control.  They have shown a respect for the archeology, religious significance for multiple faiths for decades now, and that is important.  They have done nothing to make me think that would change so I think it's time for trust.

Is it difficult for Muslims to visit muslim shrines in that area?


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 3, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > 2. The Old City of Jerusalem and the holy places.
> ...


The Muslims have destroyed most of the artifacts on the Temple mount.
The play soccer up there.
That’s not showing respect.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 3, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > 2. The Old City of Jerusalem and the holy places.
> ...


Muslims have complete religious freedom in Israel.


----------



## AzogtheDefiler (Feb 3, 2020)

Sunni Man said:


> Palestinians know from previous experience, that making a deal with Israel'i jews is the same as making a deal with the devil.  ..


You lie. The Palestinians never made any deal with me.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 3, 2020)

Sunni Man said:


> Palestinians know from previous experience, that making a deal with Israel'i jews is the same as making a deal with the devil.  ..


So have you asked the Syrians to give back Lebanon yet?


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## flacaltenn (Feb 3, 2020)

Olde Europe said:


> So, that's a long-winded, meandering way of saying you have just as much of an answer to that question as I have, and it has been stumping me for quite some time.



I actually have a plan.. From a couple decades of following the disappointment and violence attempts at peace.. It's been in writing for about a year.. And I'm shopping it around a bit... 

It's not so much of "comprehensive" plan as it is a better way to LOOK at the long standing cultural, political, economic reasons why there's NO peace plan after 53 years..  New IDEAS that break the impasse of just drawing lines on a map... A better expectation for how Palis might WANT to select their leadership...  A better plan that INCLUDES the connectivity for free travel and trade..  A way to involve Jordan and Egypt in the process and have them "provide land swaps" to toss into the mix in exchange for faster, better TRADE in the entire region.

Basically, I want to make the Israelis and Palis so DAMN content and prosperous that they start living for the FUTURE... Cause prosperous and HAPPY people don't shoot each other with rockets or start Civil wars and Intifadas....


----------



## Olde Europe (Feb 3, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Well...I view it like this:  as part of the Marshall plan we required the demilitarization of Japan.  In fact much of the Marshal plan was also an economic development plan as well.  The Palestinians have not been able to to stop aggressive attacks on Israel's civilian populace.  While I don't consider Israel a total angel in this, much of their military actions against the Palestinians have been in response to these attacks which no other state would be expected to tolerate.  I don't think it would be fair to expect Israel to accept a militerized state as part of the deal, particularly one within it's own borders, until that state has shown itself capable of showing it can stop these attacks and then some, given the long history of conflict.  I don't think any other nation would be expected to tolerate that.
> 
> The more I think of it...the more I think we should view the peace plan, somewhat, along the lines of the martial plan.



With all due respect, Coyote, the Israeli population is suffering the attacks Israel is causing by acts of war, including the Gaza blockade.  Then turning around and arguing for more indignities visited upon Palestinians doesn't look very compelling where I sit.  A Marshall Plan would be fine, but it is no replacement for a population determined to achieve self-determination, and that's why this atrocity of a Trump plan will fail.

Israel, it should be clearly stated, also isn't interested in solving this, except in case annexation of the West Bank and the Golan Heights while getting out as many Arabs as they can, counts as a "solution".  As long as there is a conflict brewing, with occasional eruptions of violence, Israel can claim they are merely defending themselves, and squeeze the Palestinians some more.  In case there is a solution, the Israeli land grab is to stop.  Isn't that obvious?


----------



## Coyote (Feb 3, 2020)

Olde Europe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Well...I view it like this:  as part of the Marshall plan we required the demilitarization of Japan.  In fact much of the Marshal plan was also an economic development plan as well.  The Palestinians have not been able to to stop aggressive attacks on Israel's civilian populace.  While I don't consider Israel a total angel in this, much of their military actions against the Palestinians have been in response to these attacks which no other state would be expected to tolerate.  I don't think it would be fair to expect Israel to accept a militerized state as part of the deal, particularly one within it's own borders, until that state has shown itself capable of showing it can stop these attacks and then some, given the long history of conflict.  I don't think any other nation would be expected to tolerate that.
> ...



I'm curious - what would you propose?  Because in my view - it's not a one sided problem.

Israel has suffered attacks even when it's adhered to peace plan strategies of the past.  Prior to the blockade.

What is a win win solution for both sides?


----------



## AzogtheDefiler (Feb 3, 2020)

Olde Europe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Well...I view it like this:  as part of the Marshall plan we required the demilitarization of Japan.  In fact much of the Marshal plan was also an economic development plan as well.  The Palestinians have not been able to to stop aggressive attacks on Israel's civilian populace.  While I don't consider Israel a total angel in this, much of their military actions against the Palestinians have been in response to these attacks which no other state would be expected to tolerate.  I don't think it would be fair to expect Israel to accept a militerized state as part of the deal, particularly one within it's own borders, until that state has shown itself capable of showing it can stop these attacks and then some, given the long history of conflict.  I don't think any other nation would be expected to tolerate that.
> ...


Israel is causing? You have got to be kidding me. Palestinians are controlled by vile terrorists. They are victims just like the North Korean people.


----------



## Olde Europe (Feb 3, 2020)

flacaltenn said:


> A way to involve Jordan and Egypt in the process and have them "provide land swaps" to toss into the mix in exchange for faster, better TRADE in the entire region.



Yeah, I've seen you propose your plan.  Since these "swaps" probably are either uninhabitable desert, or inhabited, how many Egyptians and Jordanians are you willing to displace to make room for Palestinians?


----------



## Coyote (Feb 3, 2020)

Olde Europe said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > A way to involve Jordan and Egypt in the process and have them "provide land swaps" to toss into the mix in exchange for faster, better TRADE in the entire region.
> ...



That certainly is an issue.


----------



## Olde Europe (Feb 3, 2020)

Coyote said:


> I'm curious - what would you propose?  Because in my view - it's not a one sided problem.
> 
> Israel has suffered attacks even when it's adhered to peace plan strategies of the past.  Prior to the blockade.
> 
> What is a win win solution for both sides?



I am not proposing anything other than Israel follow international law.  That's my one issue in all this brouhaha.  And no, a continuing occupation, increasing settlement activity, the abuse and oppression of the West Bank and the blockade of Gaza is not what I would expect from a civilized state.  Palestinians and Israelis, by their overwhelming majorities, have a common interest, living in peace together, or at least side-by-side.  The criminal, mass-murderous land-grabbers in Israel, and the terrorist factions in Palestine are the problem.  You are absolutely, perfectly right in proposing to look for consent with Palestinians.  That requires, however, consistently to show respect for them, for their aspirations, and for the law, on the other side, including their desire to determine their own fate as one people.  In case that emerges, support for terrorists will dry up.


----------



## flacaltenn (Feb 3, 2020)

Olde Europe said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > A way to involve Jordan and Egypt in the process and have them "provide land swaps" to toss into the mix in exchange for faster, better TRADE in the entire region.
> ...



well if they are "unhabitable desert" there won't be many human beings or camels to displace.. LOL.... 

Actually Haifa and Tel Aviv were "uninhabitable" sand dunes when they were started 100 years ago by the Israelis. Have you seen the pics???  Whole new cities appeared in the span of 25 years or so... 

And the Jordanians and Egyptians have a MOTIVATION for ending their "occupation" of their Pali refugees now living in far WORSE conditions than in the West Bank.. So if you refer that "Highway map" I posted, it passes thru and into Egypt and Jordan and NEW settlement areas THERE could prosper just like towns BOOMED in the middle of freakin nowhere when Eisenhower thunk up the Interstate highway system here... 

Chunks of land along that route on THEIR side of border would RE-CONNECT even more Palestinians than just the ones in the occupied WB.. And with the transportation, warehousing, re-distribution opportunities, I'm SURE MANY Palis stuck OUTSIDE of Israel would opt to be "founding fathers" of NEW Pali Emirates or City States... 

Leaving their old make-shift camps to Egypt and Jordan to re-purpose that land as they wish...


----------



## toastman (Feb 3, 2020)

Olde Europe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Well...I view it like this:  as part of the Marshall plan we required the demilitarization of Japan.  In fact much of the Marshal plan was also an economic development plan as well.  The Palestinians have not been able to to stop aggressive attacks on Israel's civilian populace.  While I don't consider Israel a total angel in this, much of their military actions against the Palestinians have been in response to these attacks which no other state would be expected to tolerate.  I don't think it would be fair to expect Israel to accept a militerized state as part of the deal, particularly one within it's own borders, until that state has shown itself capable of showing it can stop these attacks and then some, given the long history of conflict.  I don't think any other nation would be expected to tolerate that.
> ...



Israel has NO reason to attack Palestinians other than to defend Israel from further attacks or to retaliate.


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## Shusha (Feb 3, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Is it difficult for Muslims to visit muslim shrines in that area?



To be fair, I've never tried to visit the Muslim shrines as a Muslim.  So...I'm not sure I'm qualified to answer that.  Grin.

When I was in Israel two years ago, if I wanted to go to the Kotel, I walked through the Old City (easily accessible by taxi if you aren't lucky enough to be staying there) and down the stairs and through a simple security screen (bag on conveyor belt, walk through scanner) and I was there with free access to the Wall for as long as I wanted to be there.  Free to touch the Wall, free to pray, free to watch people with glittering "JC loves you"! T-shirts take selfies.  The Kotel is available 24 hours a day.  I went down at noon, or at 9:00 at night or at 4:00 in the morning and it was the same.  There was never a sense of being out of place, let alone unwelcome.  And that seemed to be the experience of everyone.  There were people there from all over the world, it was obvious.  And people who lived in the Old City who came daily or weekly, also obvious.  And everyone in between.

You can walk from the Jewish Quarter of the Old City to the Christian Quarter to the Muslim Quarter, and its pretty much the same in terms of welcome and its perfectly safe and no one will accost you other than aggressively wanting your tourist $$. And, as a woman alone, some of the shopkeepers are a little say, over enthusiastic, but the majority are lovely, lovely, warm people who will bring you strong coffee and ask about life in Canada.  (Though I will say that at some places in the Muslim Quarter I did wish I had brought a head scarf.)

I didn't visit the Temple Mount on my last trip.  I will say it seems to be a chore to do so.  Have to be in line early in the morning on certain days.  And limited numbers are allowed up (if you are not Muslim).  I would like to attempt it on my next trip (which is in two weeks YAY!) but like my last work trip there, its work, not sure I will have the chance. 

Anyway, not really what you asked, but I thought it was important to (long-windedly) share my experience.  

I *think* that its really, really easy for Muslims to access the Temple Mount.  Basically, the same experience as I just explained above with visiting the Kotel.  You go through a gate and maybe a simple security check and then you are there.  

The difference is that the Kotel experience is the same for everyone.  The Temple Mount experience has different rules for Muslims and non-Muslims.  

If I have this wrong or misunderstand this, please anyone let me know.


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## Shusha (Feb 3, 2020)

Olde Europe said:


> Given they have the wherewithal to accomplish pretty much everything, including all of Gaza under tight surveillance 24/7, including the ability to go in and out without suffering much by way of casualties, ...



Wait, what gives you the impression that Israel is NOT doing this?!


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## Coyote (Feb 3, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Is it difficult for Muslims to visit muslim shrines in that area?
> ...




That is fascinating - thank you for your direct perspective on it


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## Olde Europe (Feb 4, 2020)

flacaltenn said:


> Actually Haifa and Tel Aviv were "uninhabitable" sand dunes when they were started 100 years ago by the Israelis.



Haifa (ca. 3000 years old), in 1898, a few years before it was "started" by the "Israelis":







And no, I am not seriously debating outsiders, no matter who they happen to be, redrawing maps in the Middle East.  Again.  That is supposed to be a matter left to the peoples there, with, at best, the international community looking on to guarantee a modicum of fairness and to urge everybody to follow the law.

That piece-of-shit Trump plan, ludicrous and atrocious in about equal measure, is the exact opposite thereof.  Small wonder that, as far as I have seen, hardly anyone outside a small circle of hasbara peddlers and U.S. sycophants endorsed it.

Ah, perhaps I should explain myself: Anyone who would deny, or so much as to cast doubt on, the fact of the occupation of the West Bank is a hasbara peddler.  Anyone who would deny, or so much as to cast doubt on, the illegality of the Israeli settlements on the occupied West Bank is a hasbara peddler.  Anyone who would so much as imply the equation of Palestinians to terrorists is a hasbara peddler.  The hasbara peddlers' mendacity and misrepresentations have as much grounding in fact or law as the climate change denialingdongs' delusions have in natural laws.  That is, none.  Neither group is worth the time and effort to debate.  Life is way too short for such.


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## P F Tinmore (Feb 4, 2020)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Forget two states, Trump’s plan prescribes apartheid
> ...


The Palestinians have always rejected the "opportunity" to surrender.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Feb 4, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Oh, how macho!  Surrender isn't the same thing as compromise.  Interestingly, there's a word for Compromise in Hebrew--"peshara"--but none in Arabic.

And even if you look at it as a "surrender", which is inaccurate, then check out Japan.  They surrendered, and yet they are still a very prosperous nation today.  Let's see how far the so-called Palestinians get with their stubborness!  They might wind up at the bottom of the Read Sea, like the Pharaoh and Egyptians of old.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 4, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > For example, discuss control of borders, territorial waters, airspace.
> ...


Indeed, Israel must secure its settler, colonial Project.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Feb 4, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



You mean secure their ancestral, biblical and historic homeland.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 4, 2020)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...





ForeverYoung436 said:


> And even if you look at it as a "surrender", which is inaccurate, then check out Japan.


Japan was not subject to settler colonialism. There is no comparison.


----------



## Hollie (Feb 4, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Indeed, no Arab-Moslem invaders.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 4, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...





Shusha said:


> This principle will be temporarily mitigated by voluntary compliance of supervision by the State of Israel.


The supervision of Israel is *the* conflict.

Until that ends there will be no peace.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Feb 4, 2020)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...



Actually, the word "Palestinians" comes from the Hebrew word "Pelishtim" which means..."invaders!"

Not that the so-called Palestinians can even pronounce their own name.  There's no P sound in Arabic.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 4, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Yet it didn't end when they withdrew from Gaza.  Not even reduced.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 4, 2020)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...




Not this again.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 4, 2020)

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...





Coyote said:


> They in conjunction with the Arab states lost the war against the state of Israel.


Common Israeli talking point.

Zionist militias attacked and expelled Palestinians before the start of the 1948 war.

The Arab armies did not attack Israel. They fought Israeli troops in Palestine.

A UN Security Council resolution ended the fighting in the 1948 war. Nobody won or lost that war.

However, the attacks and expulsions of the Palestinians continue to today.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 4, 2020)

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


Gaza is only a small part of the problem. Israel still occupies Gaza.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 4, 2020)

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


When one of those people are excluded from their land by military force, that is the problem.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 4, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



This probably is better discussed in one of the historic threads - we will end up derailing this one (yes guilty).

The conflicts that started all those are coming up on 80 years ago, or more depending on the exact beginning.

Regardless of how we feel about the events, and who's narrative is the right one - that omelette will not be unscrambled.  So we have the situation as it is now, and going back to history and rehashing the rights and wrongs of what was essentially the ending of colonial and foreign control of the Mid East, and the multiple fights for self determination among the peoples there that resulted in what we have now, won't change it.

In my view - what can be done to end the conflict in such a way that both people's essential rights, as a people, in that land, are recognized and upheld?

It seems to me there are some basic fundamental principles we could agree on.


Any solution must recognize the rights of *both peoples* in this conflict to exist and inhabit their ancestral lands in peace.
No solution can allow for the murder of civilians, in fact *any solution must seek to prevent that from happening and must address the security of civilian populations.*
N*o solution can allow for the forced involuntary expulsions of people* or involuntary loss of citizenship to their state.

Would you agree on those as fundamental underlying principles as a baseline for any sort of proposal?


----------



## Coyote (Feb 4, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



At this point, they largely control Gaza, I would agree.  But at the time - they withdrew from Gaza, they did present an opportunity for Gaza to gain independence.  Not perfect - but a significant step.  What did Gaza do?


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## P F Tinmore (Feb 4, 2020)

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Sure, that is BDS in a nutshell.


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## Coyote (Feb 4, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



That sounds like you only support those principles for ONE set of players.


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## Shusha (Feb 4, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Okay.  Let's go with that.  

Above, I've outlined a framework for how that supervision ends.  What are your thoughts on this as a framework for ending the conflict?


----------



## Olde Europe (Feb 4, 2020)

Coyote said:


> No solution can allow for the forced involuntary expulsions of people or involuntary loss of citizenship to their state.



There should be no expulsion or involuntary loss of citizenship.

Israel, bringing back illegal West Bank settlers on her own territory, is not an "expulsion".  That would be Israel, at long last, enforcing the law she has violated for decades.


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## P F Tinmore (Feb 4, 2020)

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Not so. Nothing in BDS would violate the legitimate rights of any Israelis.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Feb 4, 2020)

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



Are you really asking Tnmore for a solution?  He's not interested in that, only in going over what happened 70 years ago.  If really pressed, he might provide the destruction of Israel as a solution, but he won't say that outright...he'll only hint at it.


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## Shusha (Feb 4, 2020)

Olde Europe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > No solution can allow for the forced involuntary expulsions of people or involuntary loss of citizenship to their state.
> ...



No.  Its expulsion of Israelis from sovereign Israeli territory.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 4, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



But it only address' one side's concerns.

What about applying this to the Israeli civilians?


----------



## Shusha (Feb 4, 2020)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Are you really asking Tnmore for a solution?  He's not interested in that, only in going over what happened 70 years ago.  If really pressed, he might provide the destruction of Israel as a solution, but he won't say that outright...he'll only hint at it.



Well, I imagine he will say that Arabs have the right to keep "resisting".


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## P F Tinmore (Feb 4, 2020)

Shusha said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > What would the US say if someone wanted to hack off everything west of the Mississippi and give it to foreign settlers?
> ...


Nice dodge. Conquest was not illegal back then.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 4, 2020)

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...





Coyote said:


> What about applying this to the Israeli civilians?


What rights of theirs are being violated?


----------



## Coyote (Feb 4, 2020)

Olde Europe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > No solution can allow for the forced involuntary expulsions of people or involuntary loss of citizenship to their state.
> ...



I don't care for the settlements, some of which were built on land that was very questionably taken, but some of these settlements were built in the 70's - with populations of 6000-8000 people and several generations of life.  You would be uprooting entire established communities of civilians for things the government did 50 years ago.

I see this as a *human rights issue, *in much the same way I would view proposals to expel Arab populations from Israel.  I totally oppose the forced expulsions of civilians whether Palestinian or Jewish.  It would seem to be a form of collective punishment.  I do think, that where land was wrongly taken, there should be some sort of compensation via courts, and the continuing acquisition of land should be strictly monitored.  But I can't support expelling innocent people.

You are talking about expelling some 400,000 or more people.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 4, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Security from violent attacks.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 4, 2020)

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Attacks are unprovoked violence. Palestinians defense is not unprovoked.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Feb 4, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Sounds like these Palestinians are dangerous.
Maybe Israel should move them into Syria?


----------



## Coyote (Feb 4, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



What kind of "defense" is lobbing rockets into civilian areas?


----------



## Coyote (Feb 4, 2020)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Another loon opting for forced expulsions.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Feb 4, 2020)

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



An unsuccessful one...…….


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Feb 4, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Tinny says they're justified in attacking Israeli civilians.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 4, 2020)

The US took territory from Mexico in the Mexican American War...does Mexico have the right to lob rockets into our civilian towns?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 4, 2020)

flacaltenn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...





flacaltenn said:


> One of the largest sources of income for middle class Palis in the West Bank are jobs and trade with Israel..


And Israel throttles those any time it wants.

The Palestinians want to be free from that.


----------



## Mindful (Feb 4, 2020)

*Israeli’s Case for the U.S. Peace Plan*

FEB. 4 2020
As an active member of Israel’s moderate left, *Einat Wilf* would have preferred the new U.S. peace proposal to make additional concessions to the Palestinians on various issues. She argues, however, that quibbles over details make little difference. Palestinian leaders will not make peace under any circumstances:

Much of the genuine criticism of Donald Trump’s “Peace to Prosperity” plan for the Middle East emerges from the assumption that there is another plan to be found; a better, more just, and fairer one, to which the Palestinians would say yes, and which would then truly bring about peace. I wish it were so, but sadly there is no evidence for such an assumption.

[D]ecades of determined words and actions have made it very clear that the Palestinian leadership will say yes only to plans that bring about the end of Israel as the sovereign state of the Jewish people. [In their view], if the price of an Arab state of Palestine is that the Jewish people will be allowed to retain a sovereign state and self-rule in another part of the land, whichever part that is, then that is too high a price to pay.

This is a painful realization which for many left-wing Israelis, like myself, was purchased in decades of dashed hopes watching Palestinian leaders walk away from opportunity after opportunity, and in the blood of families blown to bits by suicide bombers days after Palestinians could have had a state. Yet it is the reason the Trump plan has been embraced by the vast majority of Israel’s Jews, left and right.

The plan of the current administration will bring neither peace nor prosperity for the Palestinians, as they will continue consistently and predictably to say no—but it could just bring greater peace between Israel and the Arab world, who hopefully will come one day to recognize Israel and the sovereign Jews as a legitimate presence in the region.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 4, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Olde Europe said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


The US is not occupying Mexico. Apples and oranges.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 4, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



And that is actually one thing flacaltenn tries to address...so...what are your thoughts on how he addresses that instead of complaining Israel throttles it?  I like the trade ideas, and I really like opening up direct trade between Palestine and other Arab states.  That part is a win win for development of an independent Palestinian economy.


----------



## Mindful (Feb 4, 2020)

*A Left Wing Israeli’s Case for the U.S. Peace Plan.*

FEB. 4 2020
As an active member of Israel’s moderate left, *Einat Wilf* would have preferred the new U.S. peace proposal to make additional concessions to the Palestinians on various issues. She argues, however, that quibbles over details make little difference. Palestinian leaders will not make peace under any circumstances:

Much of the genuine criticism of Donald Trump’s “Peace to Prosperity” plan for the Middle East emerges from the assumption that there is another plan to be found; a better, more just, and fairer one, to which the Palestinians would say yes, and which would then truly bring about peace. I wish it were so, but sadly there is no evidence for such an assumption.

[D]ecades of determined words and actions have made it very clear that the Palestinian leadership will say yes only to plans that bring about the end of Israel as the sovereign state of the Jewish people. [In their view], if the price of an Arab state of Palestine is that the Jewish people will be allowed to retain a sovereign state and self-rule in another part of the land, whichever part that is, then that is too high a price to pay.

This is a painful realization which for many left-wing Israelis, like myself, was purchased in decades of dashed hopes watching Palestinian leaders walk away from opportunity after opportunity, and in the blood of families blown to bits by suicide bombers days after Palestinians could have had a state. Yet it is the reason the Trump plan has been embraced by the vast majority of Israel’s Jews, left and right.

The plan of the current administration will bring neither peace nor prosperity for the Palestinians, as they will continue consistently and predictably to say no—but it could just bring greater peace between Israel and the Arab world, who hopefully will come one day to recognize Israel and the sovereign Jews as a legitimate presence in the region.

A Left-Wing Israeli’s Case for the U.S. Peace Plan


----------



## Coyote (Feb 4, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Olde Europe said:
> ...




The principle is the same.

NO state can tolerate attacks on its civilians, NO state should be expected to.  Why would you expect Israel to tolerate it?  Part of a function of a state is to protect it's citizens.  There shouldn't be a double standard here.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 4, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > 2. The Old City of Jerusalem and the holy places.
> ...


Muslims and Christians have a lot of difficulty visiting their holy sites in Jerusalem.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 4, 2020)

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


It is Israel's war. It can stop it any time it wants.


----------



## Mindful (Feb 4, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...




By ceasing to exist?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 4, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Olde Europe said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Settler colonialism is one sided.


----------



## Shusha (Feb 4, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Muslims and Christians have a lot of difficulty visiting their holy sites in Jerusalem.



Not true.

Christians have the same restrictions as Jews.  Muslims have free access.  Except where there are security concerns.  But hey, if you want the right to "resist" (and by that we know you mean commit violence against LEOs and civilians) then you have to accept the security restrictions.  You can't have it both ways.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 4, 2020)

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


They didn't withdraw from Gaza.


----------



## Shusha (Feb 4, 2020)

Coyote said:


> The principle is the same.
> 
> NO state can tolerate attacks on its civilians, NO state should be expected to.  Why would you expect Israel to tolerate it?  Part of a function of a state is to protect it's citizens.  There shouldn't be a double standard here.



The irony is in P F Tinmore 's insistence that there be an end-of-conflict agreement in which Arab Palestinians continue to have the right to "resist".


----------



## Coyote (Feb 4, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



If so - how can it be resolved?  Shusha mentioned expedited access in one of her posts.  That would help wouldn't it?


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## P F Tinmore (Feb 4, 2020)

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Israel attacks civilian areas all the time.

Why the double standard?


----------



## Coyote (Feb 4, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Not completely, but they did give Gaza and window of opportunity didn't they?


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## Olde Europe (Feb 4, 2020)

Coyote said:


> I don't care for the settlements, some of which were built on land that was very questionably taken, but some of these settlements were built in the 70's - with populations of 6000-8000 people and several generations of life.  You would be uprooting entire established communities of civilians for things the government did 50 years ago.
> 
> I see this as a *human rights issue, *in much the same way I would view proposals to expel Arab populations from Israel.  I totally oppose the forced expulsions of civilians whether Palestinian or Jewish.  It would seem to be a form of collective punishment.  I do think, that where land was wrongly taken, there should be some sort of compensation via courts, and the continuing acquisition of land should be strictly monitored.  But I can't support expelling innocent people.
> 
> You are talking about expelling some 400,000 or more people.



I would be ending an ongoing crime by settlers, facilitated and subsidized by Israel, while she also tacitly declared open season on Palestinians.  Without an end to that crime, there will be no peace, and no peaceful solution to the conflict.  "Human rights" stand in no way athwart ending that crime.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 4, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



What double standard?

I oppose targeting civilians.  

I agree that in some of Israel's actions (Operation Cast Lead) - there were a lot of wrong things done.  But most of the times, Israel's actions are targeting areas that are launching rockets into Israel.  So it comes down to this:

Does a state have the right to defend it's civilians?

What is Hamas doing to defend it's civilians?  (since most of this is coming from Gaza).

You can't argue that some states can and some states can not.  It's an essential function of a state.

It is either ok to *target* civilians or it's not.  And that has to apply to all.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 4, 2020)

Olde Europe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > I don't care for the settlements, some of which were built on land that was very questionably taken, but some of these settlements were built in the 70's - with populations of 6000-8000 people and several generations of life.  You would be uprooting entire established communities of civilians for things the government did 50 years ago.
> ...



You would be punishing civilian settlers for the acts of their government and expelling 400,000 established people.  How viable is that?

What "open season" on Palestinians?


----------



## Coyote (Feb 4, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Olde Europe said:
> ...



Not in this case because you keep leaving out a key FACT.

Both the Palestinians and Jews are NATIVE to this land.  Jews have maintained a continuous presence there since their inception.  When the mandate dissolved, it wasn't just the Arabs calling for self determination, it was the Jewish people also.  What a mess huh?

This doesn't match colonialism (apples and oranges) - because Europeans were never native to the countries they "settled".  If you want to argument that the Jews who immigrated to the region shouldn't have done so, that doesn't mitigate at all the right of the Jewish people there to have their self determination and a state.

The issue is two peoples, one land, how to coexist peacefully.  Agree? Disagree?


----------



## Coyote (Feb 4, 2020)

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



P F Tinmore 

Let's come back to this - at least it's looking at something that could be win win for both people.

Trade.  Creating opportunities for free trade for the Palestinians. Independent economic growth is one of the the things that would greatly benefit their drive for self determination.  There are a lot of entrepenueral Palestinians trying to make a go at innovate tech in the current unstable environment where unemployment is so high.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 4, 2020)

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


UN Resolution 1514

United Nations Official Document


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 4, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > The principle is the same.
> ...


Resist what if the conflict ends?


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Feb 4, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



You didn't answer her question.  Deflection.  What kind of "defense" is lobbing rockets into civilian areas?

And don't say it's harmless.  I was just in Israel this past November, while you have never visited your beloved Palestine in your entire life.  I saw my relatives go into bomb shelters.  I saw the disruption of their lives, with work and school being cancelled.  I saw their dog having anxiety attacks.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 4, 2020)

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...


Before Israel, the Palestinians traded with Arab countries and Europe. There was no need for aid or violence.

What was wrong with that?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 4, 2020)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


The Palestinians experience acts of war constantly.

Are they not allowed to respond?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Feb 4, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



All civilians living in Israel are legal targets for the Palestinians, right?


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 4, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Olde Europe said:
> ...


Yes it is.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 4, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


No they don’t.


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## Indeependent (Feb 4, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Resolutions are non-Binding opinions.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 4, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


No they don’t.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 4, 2020)

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Part of the so called withdrawal was initiating a system of closure. Without travel, trade, and tourism what opportunities can you have?


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 4, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


The blockades came after Gaza lobbed rockets into S’derot.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 4, 2020)

Indeependent said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Resolutions reference international law.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 4, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Opinions usually reference stuff.
Now Link to any site that states Resolutions are binding.


----------



## Hollie (Feb 4, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Indeed, the Palestinians commit acts of war constantly. Hamas and Fatah have entire infrastructures dedicated to promoting acts of war. 

Indeed, why are you surprised when Israel responds?


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 4, 2020)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...


It’s obvious Tinmore gets his facts from Arab sites.
He can at least be honest and provide those Links.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 4, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Because almost a century has passed.  Things changed.

We aren't going to unscramble that omelette so why do you keep trying?

*It seems to me that reopening all that trade would be a win for all, don't you agree?*


----------



## Coyote (Feb 4, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Agree.  So why the hell did they continue lobbing rockets into civilian areas?  Come on - these are civilians.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 4, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



It's really really difficult to disentangle what started when and where and by who in a conflict that is essentially over 80 years old.  In fact..not sure it's worth it.

It does seem to me that most of Israel's military responses seem to be aimed at Gaza sites that rockets are fired from.  That's one thing.

Then, there are a whole lot of other factors including the way stone throwers are treated, whether or not protestors were shot in just cause or not, which would have to be looked at on a case by case basis.

You can't broad brush it all.

But we still get back to an essential function of a state: the right to protect its civilian population from threats.

What the Palestinian civilian population goes through is devastating.  What the Israeli civilian population goes through is devastating.  

I hope we can acknowledge that - rather than claiming it's just a few rockets here and there.

So what can we do to rectify it?  And, maybe, more to the point - in what way is HAMAS acting to PROTECT it's civilian population?  In what way is HAMAS acting to put it's civilian population in danger?


----------



## Coyote (Feb 4, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...




What to you, would be the end of the conflict?  Do you envision an end where Israel continues to exist as a nation, and where there is also a Palestinian nation, side by side, living peacefully?

That would be a starting point.


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (Feb 4, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...





The victory march will continue until the Palestinian flag flies in Jerusalem and in all of Palestine. Yasser Arafat Quotes - InspyreApp | Inspyre

  In Tinmore's mind anything short of this would be Palestinians " surrendering"   
       When asked why the Israelis would ever consider being deprived of their Holy Sites there is no response   Why does he have such a hard time accepting this ?


----------



## Olde Europe (Feb 4, 2020)

Coyote said:


> You would be punishing civilian settlers for the acts of their government and expelling 400,000 established people.  How viable is that?
> 
> What "open season" on Palestinians?



I would not be punishing settlers, I would stop their ongoing crime.

Some settlers are thought to lash out at Palestinians because they are "easy victims."[210] *The United Nations accused Israel of failing to intervene and arrest settlers suspected of violence.*[211] In 2008, Haaretz wrote that *"Israeli society has become accustomed to seeing lawbreaking settlers receive special treatment and no other group could similarly attack Israeli law enforcement agencies without being severely punished."*[212]

In September 2011, settlers vandalized a mosque and an army base. They slashed tires and cut cables of 12 army vehicles and sprayed graffiti.[213] In November 2011, the United Nations Office for Coordination of Human Affairs (OCHA) in the Palestinian territories published a report on settler violence that showed a significant rise compared to 2009 and 2010. The report covered physical violence and property damage such as uprooted olive trees, damaged tractors and slaughtered sheep. *The report states that 90% of complaints filed by Palestinians have been closed without charge.*[214]

*According to EU reports, Israel has created an "atmosphere of impunity" for Jewish attackers, which is seen as tantamount to tacit approval by the state.* In the West Bank, Jews and Palestinians live under two different legal regimes and *it is difficult for Palestinians to lodge complaints, which must be filed in Hebrew in Israeli settlements.*[215]​


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 4, 2020)

Olde Europe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > You would be punishing civilian settlers for the acts of their government and expelling 400,000 established people.  How viable is that?
> ...


Anything more recent?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Feb 4, 2020)

Olde Europe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > You would be punishing civilian settlers for the acts of their government and expelling 400,000 established people.  How viable is that?
> ...



*In September 2011, settlers vandalized a mosque and an army base. They slashed tires and cut cables of 12 army vehicles and sprayed graffiti.*

That's awful!!!

How many unguided rockets did they launch at Palestinian civilians? 
How many suicide vests did they detonate? 
How many Muslim restaurants did they bomb?


----------



## flacaltenn (Feb 4, 2020)

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...



Most of us want the Palestinians out of limbo and occupation. But most of us realize that the "pastoral pleasure" of open land and open borders in that region can not be restored.. The population TODAY on either side is astronomically LARGER than it was in the 1948... 

The real key to peace is security and prosperity. Any design of a peace plan has to begin there.. Not trying to "restore Palestine" to conditions that existed 100 years ago or more.. Something along the lines of "reparations" would be intl efforts to assist in building that future if the Palis find the leadership to negotiate it..


----------



## Coyote (Feb 4, 2020)

flacaltenn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Agree, and that is why we can't keep going back to 80 years ago - it isn't going to accomplish anything.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 4, 2020)

Olde Europe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > You would be punishing civilian settlers for the acts of their government and expelling 400,000 established people.  How viable is that?
> ...



I would agree that there is extremist violence coming from the settlers and it has led to horrific murders as well.  They've even thrown stones at the IDF, and I think once at a US diplomatic contingent visiting the area.  And I agree, enforcement and policing is still very lopsided against the Palestinians (for example it's crazy that children need soldiers with them just to safely get to school). 

In defense - the IDF has finally started taking them very seriously, particularly after the teenaged boy was kidnapped and burned alive.  They are viewing these extremists as terrorists and have been taking stronger measures (finally).  

And, one of my complaints has always been that the Palestinians are under military law while Israelis in that area, get the benefit of civilian law (which grants many more rights and protections to minors).  That is another reason IMO - that the status quo can't be maintained as it is.

So something needs to be done.  Like some of the ideas in this plan.


----------



## Shusha (Feb 5, 2020)

Interesting article in the Globe and Mail yesterday (?) suggested that the Palestinians have been pretty clear about what they don’t want.

Time for them to put together a peace plan of their. Let’s find out what the DO want.


----------



## deanrd (Feb 5, 2020)

The plan actually belongs to Jared Kushner. He read 25 books.

Jared Kushner says he's read 25 books about the Israel-Palestine conflict


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Feb 5, 2020)

deanrd said:


> The plan actually belongs to Jared Kushner. He read 25 books.
> 
> Jared Kushner says he's read 25 books about the Israel-Palestine conflict



He hasn't done any worse than past negotiaters.


----------



## Mindful (Feb 5, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Interesting article in the Globe and Mail yesterday (?) suggested that the Palestinians have been pretty clear about what they don’t want.
> 
> Time for them to put together a peace plan of their. Let’s find out what the DO want.



We need to find out what they DO want?

It's rather obvious.


----------



## Olde Europe (Feb 5, 2020)

Coyote said:


> I would agree that there is extremist violence coming from the settlers and it has led to horrific murders as well.  They've even thrown stones at the IDF, and I think once at a US diplomatic contingent visiting the area.  And I agree, enforcement and policing is still very lopsided against the Palestinians (for example it's crazy that children need soldiers with them just to safely get to school).
> 
> In defense - the IDF has finally started taking them very seriously, particularly after the teenaged boy was kidnapped and burned alive.  They are viewing these extremists as terrorists and have been taking stronger measures (finally).
> 
> ...



Nothing changed.  Of course, they are taking it "very seriously", which is why they opted to make filming the IDF's criminality and support of settler criminality a crime, punishable by up to ten years in prison.

The plan would visit further indignities on Palestinians.  It would not - not - improve anything for Palestinians.  It is hard, I know, but the plan is a "good job" done on Palestinians under the threadbare veil of lofty promises that will never materialize.  I find, it's time for that reality to sink in.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 5, 2020)

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...





Coyote said:


> It's really really difficult to disentangle what started when and where and by who in a conflict that is essentially over 80 years old. In fact..not sure it's worth it.


The truth is always important. You can't just blow off the past like it is meaningless. Present conflicts cannot be addressed outside of history.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Feb 5, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



But you ONLY talk about the past, and not about finding solutions.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Feb 5, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Are any Israelis protected persons under the Geneva Conventions?


----------



## Coyote (Feb 5, 2020)

Olde Europe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > I would agree that there is extremist violence coming from the settlers and it has led to horrific murders as well.  They've even thrown stones at the IDF, and I think once at a US diplomatic contingent visiting the area.  And I agree, enforcement and policing is still very lopsided against the Palestinians (for example it's crazy that children need soldiers with them just to safely get to school).
> ...


Well that is interesting...I had not of that bill before, it sounds extreme and frankly wrong. I will need to look it up.


----------



## rylah (Feb 5, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Indeed truth is important,
yet in all that you call "history", always suspiciously starts with the Balfour declaration in 1917,
and not even with the 1st official Zionist immigration 3 decades prior to that.

They call it "resistance", a fancy word for savage massacring Jews, as if they were forced into a reaction by Zionism and the Balfour declaration, but no one dares respond coherently about the Arab pogroms spreading throughout the Caliphate just prior to that.

If truth is always important, there wasn't the need to avoid so much of the story.

Q. What are they hiding about that "resistance"?


----------



## rylah (Feb 5, 2020)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Why is there no point?

l could accept a disagreement based on facts,
not a mere declaration of unwillingness to address them.


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (Feb 5, 2020)

Olde Europe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > I would agree that there is extremist violence coming from the settlers and it has led to horrific murders as well.  They've even thrown stones at the IDF, and I think once at a US diplomatic contingent visiting the area.  And I agree, enforcement and policing is still very lopsided against the Palestinians (for example it's crazy that children need soldiers with them just to safely get to school).
> ...




Tell us please; What was wrong with Olmert's plan?


----------



## Shusha (Feb 5, 2020)

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> Olde Europe said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...




You mean, besides, Jews?


----------



## Shusha (Feb 5, 2020)

Coyote said:


> And, one of my complaints has always been that the Palestinians are under military law while Israelis in that area, get the benefit of civilian law (which grants many more rights and protections to minors).  That is another reason IMO - that the status quo can't be maintained as it is.



What everyone gets wrong about the "status quo" is that it is Israel's responsibility to change it. The status quo, including the two sets of law (which is a REQUIREMENT of "occupation"), exists because of the absence of normal relations between States. 

There is a void.  There are only four possible options for filling that void.

1.  A State applies sovereignty over that territory. 
2.  The territory is abandoned by every State in the region.
3.  A State applies temporary military control over the territory (occupies it).
4.  A new State comes into being.

Israel can certainly choose any one of the first three.  (As can/did other States like Jordan).  

The international community tends to go into conniptions when Israel even suggests #1.  And no other State even seems to want to consider it.  Terrorist groups and their funding partners get the green light for killing civilians in the case of #2.  Or the status quo for #3.

But the one thing Israel can not do is force Palestine to become a new state.  Only the Palestinians can do that.  So how long do we wait?  And while we are waiting, what else IS there but the status quo?


----------



## Shusha (Feb 5, 2020)

Mindful said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Interesting article in the Globe and Mail yesterday (?) suggested that the Palestinians have been pretty clear about what they don’t want.
> ...



Oh, I agree that its obvious.  But you know, sometimes, these things need to be spelled out to some people.  

I would be very, very curious to see what Palestinians would offer as a comprehensive peace plan.  I assume they would ask for:

contiguity in all territories up to the 1949 Armistice Lines
contiguity to Gaza, of some kind
complete sovereignty and control over parts of Jerusalem, including the Old City and the Jewish holy and historical places there
complete sovereignty and control over Hebron, including the Jewish holy and historical places there
control over airspace, territorial waters
full military capability (probably funded by someone)
forced removal of all Israeli citizens
settlement of all refugees in Israel "proper"
$50 billion

So someone tell me why this would be a "good deal" for Israel.  If you are someone who complains that the Trump Plan is a "bad" deal for Palestine, especially tell me why Israel would take the above, which is in all ways a "bad" deal for Israel.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Feb 5, 2020)

Shusha said:


> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> > Olde Europe said:
> ...


Indeed, there are no pro Palestinians, just those who are pro Israel and those who are anti Israel.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 5, 2020)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


That is not true.


----------



## toastman (Feb 5, 2020)

Tinmore never has a rebuttàl, just propaganda videos .
Tell us Tinmore , instead of posting videos , what is not true about forever young’s post?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 5, 2020)

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...





Coyote said:


> It does seem to me that most of Israel's military responses seem to be aimed at Gaza sites that rockets are fired from. That's one thing.


There is more to Gaza than Israeli talking points.


There are many problems with Israel. Just nibbling around the edges of one of them leaves many unresolved.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 6, 2020)

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Who's civilian area?
-------------------------
Israeli military spokesmen, justifying their army’s assault on the Gaza Strip, said the war was about Sderot. In a way, they were right. It is about Sderot. In 1948, where Sderot houses Israeli Jews today, there was a village called Najd – Arabic for a high plateau. It was home to about seven hundred people, most of them small farmers. Two days before the declaration of the State of Israel – that is, on May 13th – Haganah forces expelled the inhabitants.

There remained the problem of the refugees. United Nations resolutions specified that all of the 750,000 Palestinian Arabs driven from their homes in 1947 and 1948 be permitted to return. However, Israel had not expelled them in order to allow them back.

Although Moshe Sharett, who later became prime minister, had decreed there be no more talk about Gaza in 1949, there has been nothing but talk and bloodshed around the Strip ever since. Israel conquered it in 1956. But there was no longer a question of annexing the Strip. Israel merely kept it under military occupation, thus denying its refugees any chance of returning to their homes on the other side of the Gaza line. By now, anyway, their villages had been demolished or filled with Israeli settlers.

“The Ordeals of Gaza”


----------



## Hollie (Feb 6, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Indeed, false premise.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 6, 2020)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


No.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 6, 2020)

toastman said:


> Tinmore never has a rebuttàl, just propaganda videos .
> Tell us Tinmore , instead of posting videos , what is not true about forever young’s post?


But you ONLY talk about the past, and not about finding solutions.​
I always post solutions. It is just that some don't want to hear them.


----------



## Mindful (Feb 6, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Tinmore never has a rebuttàl, just propaganda videos .
> ...



Speak up, dear.


----------



## Sunni Man (Feb 6, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


> *Indeed, there are no pro Palestinians, just those who are pro Israel and those who are anti Israel.*


Incorrect Poindexter

I am pro Palestinian and anti Israel.  ...


----------



## Hollie (Feb 6, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Tinmore never has a rebuttàl, just propaganda videos .
> ...



Indeed?
Press TV produced YouTube videos are solutions?


----------



## Mindful (Feb 6, 2020)

Sunni Man said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > *Indeed, there are no pro Palestinians, just those who are pro Israel and those who are anti Israel.*
> ...



You've made that more than clear.


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (Feb 6, 2020)

Sunni Man said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > *Indeed, there are no pro Palestinians, just those who are pro Israel and those who are anti Israel.*
> ...



Who cares?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Feb 6, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



And there you have it.

Thanks for finally admitting it, you support any act of terrorism as long as it targets Israelis.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Feb 6, 2020)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Toddsterpatriot said:
> ...



And this includes ppl in Tel-Aviv!  And 3 year old children!


----------



## jillian (Feb 6, 2020)

rylah said:


> Much speculation and claims in the air by various news sites.
> I don't want to do that, let's discuss it when we see what it actually says.
> 
> PM Netanyahu and opposition leader Gantz, went to Washington to meet Pres.Trump.
> ...


What deal? There can’t be a deal when pals have never wanted one and still don’t


----------



## jillian (Feb 6, 2020)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Toddsterpatriot said:
> ...



he’s admitted that for years. That’s what Jew -hating, terrorost supporting scum do


----------



## rylah (Feb 6, 2020)

jillian said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Much speculation and claims in the air by various news sites.
> ...



The people, many of them actually want Israeli rule.
Kulu min Allah...


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Feb 6, 2020)

Sunni Man said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > *Indeed, there are no pro Palestinians, just those who are pro Israel and those who are anti Israel.*
> ...


No, you're not.  Pro Palestinian is just an excuse you have for being anti Israeli.  Every offer the Palestinians have  turned down, right back to the Peel Commission in 1937, has made life more difficult for for the people, so when you support the rejection of all of these plans, from the Peel Commission in 1937 right down to Trump's plan, you are advocating against the interests of the Palestinian people.


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (Feb 6, 2020)

Molotov Cocktails, Shootings and Car Ramming Terror in Response to Trump Peace Plan

    More Violence from the Uncivilized.  What if Trump's plan was different but the Palestinian's didn't get everything they wanted?
    We will never know but the reaction would have probably been the same


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 6, 2020)

jillian said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Much speculation and claims in the air by various news sites.
> ...


A deal is what you get from a used car dealer.


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (Feb 7, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...



Another stupid comment. A “ deal” is also defined as an agreement entered into by two or more mutual parties for their own benefit
   Please tell us why and how Israel “ benefits” by  capitulating to the Palestinians with all their demands


----------



## toastman (Feb 7, 2020)

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...


Don’t hold your breath for Tinmore to answer you..


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (Feb 7, 2020)

toastman said:


> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



I know.... He can’t. When challenged as to their Official Policy that Jews will not be permitted at the Western Wall there is no response
 Obviously there are other Religious Jewish Sacred Sites in E. Jerusalem 
 Probably can’t stand it because the Jewish State will exist despite him and others


----------



## José (Feb 7, 2020)

> Originally posted by *ILOVEISRAEL*
> Another stupid comment. A “ deal” is also defined as an agreement entered into by two or more mutual parties for their own benefit
> Please tell us why and how Israel “ benefits” by capitulating to the Palestinians with all their demands.



If selling your own homeland is just a "deal", tell the super patriotic american clowns of the US Message Board to sell the southwest back to Mexico.


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (Feb 7, 2020)

José said:


> > Originally posted by *ILOVEISRAEL*
> > Another stupid comment. A “ deal” is also defined as an agreement entered into by two or more mutual parties for their own benefit
> > Please tell us why and how Israel “ benefits” by capitulating to the Palestinians with all their demands.
> 
> ...



Deflection; Doesn’t answer my question


----------



## José (Feb 7, 2020)

> ILOVEISRAEL
> Deflection; Doesn’t answer my question



Why deflection?

When you demand something from someone you have to give the example first.

If the SPACs want Palestinians to renounce to their rights to their homeland they have to show them the way, show them how it's done by selling the southwest back to Mexico.

If they don't, it's just another case of "do as I say not as I do".


----------



## Hollie (Feb 8, 2020)

José said:


> > ILOVEISRAEL
> > Deflection; Doesn’t answer my question
> 
> 
> ...


A rather pointless attempt at a comparison that makes no sense.


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (Feb 8, 2020)

José said:


> > ILOVEISRAEL
> > Deflection; Doesn’t answer my question
> 
> 
> ...





José said:


> > ILOVEISRAEL
> > Deflection; Doesn’t answer my question
> 
> 
> ...




The victory march will continue until the Palestinian flag flies in Jerusalem and in all of Palestine. Yasser Arafat Quotes - InspyreApp | Inspyre

   Does this answer your question?  Please tell us why the official statement of the PLO is that if they ever got control of E. Jerusalem Jews will NOT be permitted at the Western Wall

 What is not spoken about there are other Jewish Holy Sites in E. Jerusalem which would obviously be forbidden as well


----------



## RoccoR (Feb 8, 2020)

RE:  Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→  √José, ILOVEISRAEL, et al,

Is some group asking the Arab Palestinians to give-up something?  Is that the question?

Is the issue really a Question of Palestine relative where one group claims a place of origin as preserved by the same cultural group for several generations?



José said:


> > ILOVEISRAEL
> > Deflection; Doesn’t answer my question
> 
> 
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

I do not believe that the Arab Palestinians are asked, or were being asked, to renounce or forfeit any "rights."  That is purely an embedded cultural mantra to support their extended tantrum.

The political predicament, relative to territorial control, was based on the threats they have made over time and the demonstrated monstrous methods _(over the last half century, never mind the likes of Izz ad-Din al-Qassam, a hostile militant opponent of the Jewish People)_ they will resort to in order to achieve their goal.

And I'm not at all sure how you are applying the accusation: "do as I say - not as I do" → The moral values and obligations change over time and between cultures.

_

_
Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 8, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
> ⁜→  √José, ILOVEISRAEL, et al,
> 
> Is some group asking the Arab Palestinians to give-up something?  Is that the question?
> ...


Your usual hit piece.

The Palestinians live in a prison with their land and resources pulled out from under their feet regularly. Then when they object, the lying sacks of shit call them terrorists.


----------



## Hollie (Feb 8, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE:  Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
> ...



Aside from forever being the victim you choose to be, why can’t you accept responsibility for the conditions you create?

What land and resources are pulled out from under your feet? These are among your usual complaints but you’re never able to provide specifics.


----------



## Dogmaphobe (Feb 8, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> JWBooth said:
> 
> 
> > Bantustans in an oppressive apartheid state.
> ...


Sounds to me like you are describing your trailor park.


All you are doing is parroting the dogma Pallywood created to infect the minds of those with low IGs.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Feb 8, 2020)

José said:


> > ILOVEISRAEL
> > Deflection; Doesn’t answer my question
> 
> 
> ...


The plan doesn't ask the Palestinians to give up any of their rights, real or imagined, but only to decide if they want to continue the status quo or to negotiate for a state on the basis of the plan because these are the only options.


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (Feb 8, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE:  Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
> ...






The Gaza Blockade: An Explainer

We are mot the lying Sacks of shit


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 8, 2020)

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


So you post a bullshit Israeli propaganda site.


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (Feb 8, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Unlike you who posts bullshit Palestinian propaganda sites? What about my post wasn’t true?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 8, 2020)

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > ILOVEISRAEL said:
> ...



The Fatah-led Palestinian Authority managed Gaza’s affairs until 2007, when Hamas violently seized control of the Strip, killing and expelling Fatah personnel.​There was no Fatah led Palestinian Authority in 2007. Fatah lost the elections. Hamas was the majority party in the Palestinian Authority since January of 2006.

You need to find a better source.


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (Feb 8, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Doesn’t change the


P F Tinmore said:


> ILOVEISRAEL said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



The post did state that Hamas took over. Read again
 Right after Israel left in 2005 Rocket attacks increased 
Deny it all you want


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 8, 2020)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


Where is that stupid post button?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 8, 2020)

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > ILOVEISRAEL said:
> ...


You need to read my copy/paste quote I posted.


----------



## José (Feb 8, 2020)

*Is some group asking the Arab Palestinians to give-up something? Is that the question?

I do not believe that the Arab Palestinians are asked, or were being asked, to renounce or forfeit any "rights." That is purely an embedded cultural mantra to support their extended tantrum.*






The plan doesn't ask the Palestinians to give up any of their rights, real or imagined, but only to decide if they want to continue the status quo or to negotiate for a state on the basis of the plan because these are the only options.

*TOOMUCHTIME*​
This reply may surprise you but I agree with you two 100%.

To my knowledge no ethnocratic state has ever seriously "asked" the native population to give up their land in advance for two basic reasons:

*First reason*:

They never needed to ask for anything in the first place.

The imbalance of forces between the supremacist settler state and the native population they subjugate is always so huge that the land becomes their de facto possession through brute force alone.

The only purpose of the peace accords, deals and plans the ethnocratic state presents to the natives after the military conquest of their lands is merely "ask" them to recognize and accept the "*reality on the ground*" as toomuchtime so correctly put it ("*negotiate based on the plan because these are the only options.*")

No matter how strongly the ethnocracy tries to deny this fact:

The native's acceptance (post facto) of the ethnocracy's creation and its territorial expansion *DOES* give the landgrab perpetrated by the supremacist state an "*extra layer of legitimacy*".

That's why the american government celebrated every treaty made with Indians creating a new reservation despite being a military behemoth fighting a bunch of unarmed nomads.

That's why South Africa saluted the establishment of the Bantu Republics founded by black south african "leaders" handpicked by the apartheid state in spite of being perfectly able to dominate the black population without the need of political fictions like Transkei, Kwazulu, etc...

And that's why Israel saluted the Oslo Accords, the Trump Plan despite their total insignificance in terms of military control of Palestine.

Regardless of being utterly irrelevant from a practical standpoint, nothing can replace the "moral legitimacy" conferred by the native's "acceptance" of the ethnocratic expansionism.

*Second basic reason supremacist states don't ask natives anything prior to the conquest of their lands*:

The proposition is insane in and of itself.

Asking the native population to vacate North America, their sacred rivers, prairies, mountains, their hunting grounds, their ancestors' burial grounds and move to crowded, barren, sordid reservations was so absurd that the english colonists and american presidents already knew what the answer would be.

Asking the bantu population to give up their african homeland for puppet, fake states would be equally absurd.

Same goes for Israel...

There would be no Israel today hadn't Ben-Gurion ignored the palestinians' rejection of the UN partition plan and there would be no Judea and Samaria today if Eshkol hadn't ignored the native's rejection of Israel's territorial expansion.

If all the colonists in the world decided to wait for the natives' acceptance of the ethnocracy's creation and territorial expansion and  their own inevitable dispossession there wouldn't have existed a single racial dictatorship in human history.


----------



## Shusha (Feb 8, 2020)

José said:


> Asking the native population to vacate North America, their sacred rivers, prairies, mountains, their hunting grounds, their ancestors' burial grounds and move to crowded, barren, sordid reservations was so absurd that the english colonists and american presidents already knew what the answer would be.
> 
> Asking the bantu population to give up their african homeland for puppet, fake states would be equally absurd.



And yet you have no problem demanding the indigenous Jewish peoples of the place vacate their sacred places, their ancestors' burial grounds, their monuments, and their historical lands to move to ... Europe?

You highlight your own bigotry.


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (Feb 8, 2020)

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > ILOVEISRAEL said:
> ...



YAWN....  A funny face, but no rebuttal


----------



## rylah (Feb 8, 2020)

José said:


> *Is some group asking the Arab Palestinians to give-up something? Is that the question?
> 
> I do not believe that the Arab Palestinians are asked, or were being asked, to renounce or forfeit any "rights." That is purely an embedded cultural mantra to support their extended tantrum.*
> 
> ...


'Native' -  as in average US citizen is "native" to Milwaukee,
or "native" - as in those who cannot even pronounce the name of the land?


----------



## José (Feb 8, 2020)

> Originally posted by *Shusha*
> And yet you have no problem demanding the indigenous Jewish peoples of the place vacate their sacred places, their ancestors' burial grounds, their monuments, and their historical lands to move to ... Europe?
> 
> You highlight your own bigotry.​


​


> Originally posted by *rylah*
> 'Native' - as in average US citizen is "native" to Milwaukee,
> or "native" - as in those who cannot even pronounce the name of the land?​


​*I even took a DNA test to prove it. *
*Although I am "100% European" according to them*

*



*
​Some indigenous Jewish people you have there...


----------



## RoccoR (Feb 8, 2020)

RE:  Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→  P F Tinmore, ILOVEISRAEL, et al,

The Israelis abandon _(by means of a unilateral withdrawal)_ the Gaza Strip in August 2005.  At that time, there was NO Security Barrier _[*Concrete* (Composite Material*) T-Walls*]_.   There were no concertina, barbed wire and razor ribbon.   Even in June of 2010, the Security Cabinet allowed virtually all dual-use items to enter the Gaza strip.  But in the time between 2001 and 2014, and estimated 20,000 rocket attacks occurred.  The main source of rocket attacks were:

◈  Islamic Resistance (Hamas)
◈  Palestinian Islamic Jihad, (PIJ)
◈  Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP)
◈  Popular Resistance Committees (PRC)
◈  Fatah,
◈  Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine. (DFLP)​


P F Tinmore said:


> Your usual hit piece.
> The Palestinians live in a prison with their land and resources pulled out from under their feet regularly. Then when they object, the lying sacks of shit call them terrorists.





ILOVEISRAEL said:


> The Gaza Blockade: An Explainer
> We are mot the lying Sacks of shit


*(COMMENT)*

The barrier was, among other things, a countermeasure to help prevent Arab Palestinian would-be suicide bombers from entering Israel and attacking Israeli civilians; the unlawful and intentional use of explosives and other lethal devices in, into, or against various defined public places with intent to kill or cause serious bodily injury, or with intent to cause extensive destruction of the public place.

Had the Arab Palestinians adopted a political and diplomatic posture consistent with the Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States, the probability that the conflict we see today would not exist, and the State of Palestine might have been established and standing largely on its own.


_

_
Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## RoccoR (Feb 8, 2020)

RE:  Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→  P F Tinmore,, et al,

Sometimes you really make me chuckle.



P F Tinmore said:


> There was no Fatah led Palestinian Authority in 2007. Fatah lost the elections. Hamas was the majority party in the Palestinian Authority since January of 2006.
> 
> You need to find a better source.


*(COMMENT)*

I thought the Palestinian Authority was established by the Oslo Accords in the mid 1990s.  Am I wrong?

_

_
Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Feb 8, 2020)

José said:


> > Originally posted by *Shusha*
> > And yet you have no problem demanding the indigenous Jewish peoples of the place vacate their sacred places, their ancestors' burial grounds, their monuments, and their historical lands to move to ... Europe?
> >
> >
> ...



So you're going by one cheap, home DNA test taken by one Jew, out of 14 million ppl.  I didn't even take the standard Ancestry DNA test, because I didn't want to spend alot of money.


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (Feb 8, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
> ⁜→  P F Tinmore, ILOVEISRAEL, et al,
> 
> The Israelis abandon _(by means of a unilateral withdrawal)_ the Gaza Strip in August 2005.  At that time, there was NO Security Barrier _[*Concrete* (Composite Material*) T-Walls*]_.   There were no concertina, barbed wire and razor ribbon.   Even in June of 2010, the Security Cabinet allowed virtually all dual-use items to enter the Gaza strip.  But in the time between 2001 and 2014, and estimated 20,000 rocket attacks occurred.  The main source of rocket attacks were:
> ...



Don’t expect Tinmore to answer. Instead; you’ll receive a funny face
That’s what he does when he can’t Answer


----------



## rylah (Feb 8, 2020)

José said:


> > Originally posted by *Shusha*
> > And yet you have no problem demanding the indigenous Jewish peoples of the place vacate their sacred places, their ancestors' burial grounds, their monuments, and their historical lands to move to ... Europe?
> >
> > You highlight your own bigotry.​
> ...




Typical blood purity BS.
There's no such thing as "100% European", at least not in science.
And it has nothing to do with my question.


Do you actually know what 'indigenous' mean?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 8, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
> ⁜→  P F Tinmore,, et al,
> 
> Sometimes you really make me chuckle.
> ...


Nice duck.


----------



## rylah (Feb 8, 2020)

ILOVEISRAEL said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE:  Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
> ...



The guy can't follow his own mambo jumbo,
let alone own to his mistakes with integrity.

Don't expect racist filth to be rational or sincere,
compulsive lying is a mental illness, usually comes on top of serious antisocial behavior.
Blind support for one's nation's sworn enemies is definitely one.

What can You expect from a traitor?


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Feb 8, 2020)

José said:


> > Originally posted by *Shusha*
> > And yet you have no problem demanding the indigenous Jewish peoples of the place vacate their sacred places, their ancestors' burial grounds, their monuments, and their historical lands to move to ... Europe?
> >
> > You highlight your own bigotry.​
> ...



Shusha, you're talking to a guy who once said that ONLY Jerusalem has meaning for the Jews in the entirety of Eretz Yisrael.  He doesn't know ANYTHING about its history, if he can make such a statement.  He really should take a tour of Israel and learn a thing or two.  He will at least learn about the 3 other holy cities there--Tiberias, Sefad and Hebron.  Let him climb Masada which will never fall again, or go to the waterfalls or caves of Ein Gedi where David hid from King Saul, or visit Beersheba and the Negev in the South.


----------



## Shusha (Feb 8, 2020)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Shusha, you're talking to a guy who once said that ONLY Jerusalem has meaning for the Jews in the entirety of Eretz Yisrael.  He doesn't know ANYTHING about its history, if he can make such a statement.  He really should take a tour of Israel and learn a thing or two.  He will at least learn about the 3 other holy cities there--Tiberias, Sefad and Hebron.  Let him climb Masada which will never fall again, or go to the waterfalls or caves of Ein Gedi where David hid from King Saul, or visit Beersheba and the Negev in the South.



I actually don't know how anybody can be THAT transparently bigoted to bring up sacred places and ancestor's burial grounds and think that those are somewhere in Europe for the Jewish people.


----------



## toastman (Feb 8, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE:  Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
> ...


As usual, you have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING . No proper response, no proper rebuttal. You simply cannot handle that Rocco continuously proved you wrong, over and over and over. Please explain how Rocco ‘ducked’ you.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Feb 9, 2020)

Shusha said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha, you're talking to a guy who once said that ONLY Jerusalem has meaning for the Jews in the entirety of Eretz Yisrael.  He doesn't know ANYTHING about its history, if he can make such a statement.  He really should take a tour of Israel and learn a thing or two.  He will at least learn about the 3 other holy cities there--Tiberias, Sefad and Hebron.  Let him climb Masada which will never fall again, or go to the waterfalls or caves of Ein Gedi where David hid from King Saul, or visit Beersheba and the Negev in the South.
> ...



Bigoted AND ignorant.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Feb 9, 2020)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> José said:
> 
> 
> > > Originally posted by *Shusha*
> ...



Not to mention the fact, even if you go by that cheap test, that you deliberately cut out the part about the markers showing my ancestors came from the Middle East.  They even supplied a map of the migration.

Most Israelis today are Mizrahi anyway, which means they are Middle Eastern natives.  And the so-called Palestinians aren't even native to that particular land, although they may be native to the region, like Mizrahi Jews are.  After the Zionists drained the swamps and created new employment opportunities, there was a large influx of Arabs immigrating from other countries, as Churchill attested to.  A document from the 1920's said that Palestine was constantly being replenished by nomads from Arabia.

Are you seriously going by the myth that the Palestinians are descended from the Canaanites?  If so, why does Shirley Temper have blonde hair?


----------



## Shusha (Feb 9, 2020)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Are you seriously going by the myth that the Palestinians are descended from the Canaanites?  If so, why does Shirley Temper have blonde hair?



Doesn't Shirley Temper's DNA test show that her family is Turkish in origin?  I mean, if we are going by blood purity and all.


----------



## José (Feb 10, 2020)

> Originally posted by *rylah*
> There's no such thing as "100% European", at least not in science.



Direct your complaints to the genetic lab that analyzed ForeverYoung's ancestry.

They were the ones who told him he's 100% european not me.



> Originally posted by *Shusha*
> I actually don't know how anybody can be THAT transparently bigoted to bring up *sacred places* and *ancestor's burial grounds* and think that those are somewhere in Europe for the Jewish people.



If the geographic location of sacred places make the followers of a given religion natives of the land, I have extremely bad news for Israel:

*The world has 1 billion christian Palestinians just waiting for the Knesset to approve a second "law of return" for them.*

As for ancestors' burial grounds, again, direct your complaints to the genetic lab that analyzed ForeverYoung's saliva sample... they were the ones who told him his ancestors' burial grounds are located in Europe not me.


----------



## José (Feb 10, 2020)

> Originally posted by *ForeverYoung436*
> So you're going by one cheap, home DNA test taken by one Jew, out of 14 million ppl. I didn't even take the standard Ancestry DNA test, because I didn't want to spend alot of money.



You seem to be angry at me, resentful, ForeverYoung?

The only thing I said is that you're not a descendant of any ancient semitic people, but....

1 - I have a world of respect for your religious faith and the sense of peoplehood that's embedded in it.

2 - I have an awful lot of sadness, compassion and empathy for your tragic family history.

3 - And above all, even though I never met you irl, I have a great deal of affection for you.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Feb 11, 2020)

José said:


> > Originally posted by *ForeverYoung436*
> > So you're going by one cheap, home DNA test taken by one Jew, out of 14 million ppl. I didn't even take the standard Ancestry DNA test, because I didn't want to spend alot of money.
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks.  My family history happened before I was born, so it's not like I have PTSD or something like that, though of course it has influenced who I am.  As for you having affection for me personally, that kind of creeps me out.

If you feel anger in my posts, it's because I get tired of all your "blood purity" litmus tests of who can live in Eretz Yisrael.  Most of the Jews who live in Israel today are Mizrahi (Middle Eastern) Jews anyway.


----------



## xyz (Feb 11, 2020)

I don't understand how anybody could support someone whose supporters are like this:

And then straight from the horse's mouth:


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 12, 2020)




----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (Feb 12, 2020)

xyz said:


> I don't understand how anybody could support someone whose supporters are like this:
> 
> And then straight from the horse's mouth:



Didn’t know that “ The Squad” and Nancy Pelosi were Jewish.  This is the “ Christian “ hate that has existed for over 2000 years.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 15, 2020)




----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (Feb 15, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


>



One of the protesters held up a flag in which the entire area was just one color. Doesn’t sound like the the “ Two State Solution” to me.  Keep posting.


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (Feb 15, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


>



“ The plan allows a fraction of the land seized in 1967?” Olmert offered them almost all of it back. There will be no response;;there never is


----------



## RoccoR (Feb 15, 2020)

RE:  Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→  ILOVEISRAEL, et al,

I did not know that any of "The Squad" were jewish; not that it makes any difference. 

I think that the Honorable Nacy Pelosi, Speaker of the House, is an American.  That the idea that she has been infected by Jewish influence-peddling is just absurd.



ILOVEISRAEL said:


> Didn’t know that “ The Squad” and Nancy Pelosi were Jewish.  This is the “ Christian “ hate that has existed for over 2000 years.


*(PASSING THOUGHT)*

I think that this nick-name "The Squad" is just an indicator of just how old and slow to adopt change the older leadership is, on "The Hill," in their thinking.  Certainly, these four Members of Congress have little in common, except the generalized motions common to all politicians, and the fact they are _(relatively newly elected)_ women.


_

_
Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (Feb 15, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
> ⁜→  ILOVEISRAEL, et al,
> 
> I did not know that any of "The Squad" were jewish; not that it makes any difference.
> ...





RoccoR said:


> RE:  Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
> ⁜→  ILOVEISRAEL, et al,
> 
> I did not know that any of "The Squad" were jewish; not that it makes any difference.
> ...


----------



## rylah (Feb 20, 2020)

*The Arabs prefer Israeli sovereignty over a Palestinian state*
*We have a choice: Sovereignty or a Palestinian State. Why does Israel need sovereignty in its Biblical Heartland?*

*




*

Tamar Yonah speaks with Nadia Matar, co-chairwoman of Women in Green and The Sovereignty Movement.

Why should Israel choose sovereignty? Because of the security needs and dangers Israel faces by maintaining the status quo.

How would sovereignty benefit not just Israelis, but all people, and what about a Palestinian state? Guess what many Arabs would prefer.

*Sovereignty or a Palestinian State? - The Tamar Yonah Show*


----------



## xyz (Feb 24, 2020)

rylah said:


> *The Arabs prefer Israeli sovereignty over a Palestinian state*
> *We have a choice: Sovereignty or a Palestinian State. Why does Israel need sovereignty in its Biblical Heartland?*
> 
> *
> ...


The Palestinians were never offered a real independent state with its own military and border guards.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 24, 2020)

'This is not a peace plan, it is theft': Democrats denounce Trump's Israel-Palestine plan


----------



## RoccoR (Feb 24, 2020)

RE:  Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground 
⁜→  xyz, et al,

This is probably true. 



xyz said:


> The Palestinians were never offered a real independent state with its own military and border guards.


*(QUESTION)*

Is it necessary for some benefactor to do that?  Why did not the Arab League do that? I thought that everyone, including the Arab League, saw that putting arms in those hands would be a serious mistake.

I thought that the Palestinian Holy War Army _(under the leadership of Abd al-Qadir al-Husayni and __Hasan Salama)_ were forcibly disarmed by the neighboring Arab Countries...  Maybe I'm wrong...  

And I thought that the neighboring Arab Countries learned a valuable lesson when the Palestine Liberation Army (PLA) _(armed with Tanks, APCs, Rockets, and mortars in addition to fairly modern automatic weapons of the day)_ attempted to overthrow the Hashemite Kingdom_ (a time that would come to be known as Black September)_. 

Of course, maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that the Office of the United States Security Coordinator for Israel had supplied weapons to the Palestinians.  And I was under the impression that the Iranians _(Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps • Qud Force)_ was in the mix.

And there is a biggie>>>  that while the West Bank was Sunni, and I thought Iranians were Shia.  Of course, the Sunni Palestinians and neighbors _(like Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia)_ appreciate the Arab Palestinians in the Gaza Strip getting cozy with the Iranians...  I'm probably wrong there too.

Lessons Learned_*!*_  Maybe not...



Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## rylah (Feb 25, 2020)

xyz said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > *The Arabs prefer Israeli sovereignty over a Palestinian state*
> ...



Don't they have an independent state in Jordan, its own military and border guards?
Let's not pretend that under international law Arabs were even entitled to all of that, ever.

And insisting on the opposite, is exactly what caused the stakes against them.
No Arab country actually wants anymore of those Jihadists to have military,
let alone to have their borders guarded by them, why should Israel?


----------



## Coyote (Feb 26, 2020)

I think Netanyahu views the Trump deal as nothing more than excuse for continuing what he wanted to do all along.  I don't think a 2 state was ever part of his agenda.



Netanyahu announces new settlements days before Israeli election


Benjamin Netanyahu has announced he will move ahead with a highly controversial plan to build settlements east of Jerusalem, in an apparent offering to hardline nationalist voters less than a week before a general election.

Israel’s prime minister said he would reopen the long-dormant project to build 3,500 homes for Jewish settlers in one of the most sensitive areas of the occupied West Bank.

Palestinians and their global backers argue the plan *would virtually cut the West Bank into two enclaves and completely encircle Palestinian neighbourhoods in the holy city. It has long been seen as an impassable barrier to any viable future Palestinian state. Upwards of 2,000 Bedouin people living in E1 could also be displaced.*


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Feb 26, 2020)

Coyote said:


> I think Netanyahu views the Trump deal as nothing more than excuse for continuing what he wanted to do all along.  I don't think a 2 state was ever part of his agenda.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The Palestinian capital is Mecca.


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 26, 2020)

José said:


> > ILOVEISRAEL
> > Deflection; Doesn’t answer my question
> 
> 
> ...


Losing a war is a bitch.


----------



## José (Feb 26, 2020)

Losing a war is a bitch.




These poor devils lost a war.




Black South Africans and Palestinians (so far) only lost battles.


----------



## Picaro (Feb 26, 2020)

Indeependent said:


> José said:
> 
> 
> > > ILOVEISRAEL
> ...



Losing four of them is even worse, especially when your Arab 'brothers' armies disintegrate and start looting and robbing their own Muslim 'brothers' on the way, before they even get to fire at those uppity Israelis..


----------



## Picaro (Feb 26, 2020)

José said:


> These poor devils lost a war.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I always laugh at that one, since the Sioux were themselves major mass murderers of the surrounding tribes as they built their own big empire on the Plains. They have zero moral status to be whining about anything.


----------



## rylah (Feb 26, 2020)

José said:


> Losing a war is a bitch.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



False equivalence.

The Arabs who cannot even pronounce that name of the land they claim, 
are actually the antagonists of Native Americans.

In matter of fact, Arabs came from the same countries where they expelled the Jews.
Further attempt to make it about skin color, is just a shallow racist projection.


----------



## rylah (Feb 26, 2020)

Coyote said:


> I think Netanyahu views the Trump deal as nothing more than excuse for continuing what he wanted to do all along.  I don't think a 2 state was ever part of his agenda.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The analysis from The Guardian is more on the sensationalist than on the factual side.

Ma'ale Adumim is an integral part of Jerusalem,
as far as I see, it was never assumed to be included in the autonomy.
The 3,500 homes, are actually apartment units, can be 3,500 private houses, or 65 level towers,
in any variation. Basically all aligned with the TAMA100 trajectory, infrastructure development plan,
to make Jerusalem the largest city in the country.

Abu Dis, as designated in Trump Plan for the Arab capital is outside E1.
The PA comments are overall comical, just last week they declared issuing building permits in C.
Bedouins might be required to move, though we haven't seen the planning, but it won't be displacement, that's a blood libel. More likely a financial package with infrastructure in nearby location.

And let me explain one simple thing, they claim new neighborhoods will encircle the neighborhoods under PA control, but they're already encircled, have been this ever since they had it, neither geographically creates any enclaves. It's evident for anyone who drives around in a car - everything closely encircles everything, especially in the area of Jerusalem. Probably half of what looks as separate villages on the map are in short walking range, and when in such proximity basically indistinguishable.

(To conclude)
Basically add the 3,500 apartments or not, the Arab neighborhoods in Jerusalem anyway encircled by Jewish once and vice versa. To claim that this prevents their statehood, adds to a whole bunch of their other ridiculous excuses for their dysfunction.

And on the side note, the "what Netanyahu wanted all along",
well frankly, I'm an Israeli and have no idea what he actually wants,
and to even assume a leader of his caliber would reveal his strategy, is naive at best.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 26, 2020)

rylah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > I think Netanyahu views the Trump deal as nothing more than excuse for continuing what he wanted to do all along.  I don't think a 2 state was ever part of his agenda.
> ...



A leader of his caliber?

He's a politician - like any other, with an eye towards re-election, and a base to pander to.

He's never done anything to indicate a support for a two state solution - never.

So what do you think his aims are?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Feb 26, 2020)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...





Coyote said:


> So what do you think his aims are?


Israel's primary goal from the beginning is all of Palestine without the Palestinians. This goal has never changed.


----------



## Picaro (Feb 26, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...



lol so you're saying the Ottoman Turks are Jews, now, and part of some grand conspiracy? No 'Palestinians' existed until some terrorist gangsters invented them out of nothing in the 1950's.


----------



## RoccoR (Feb 27, 2020)

RE:  Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→  Coyote, rylah, et al,

Leadership:  That is a tough quality about people.  It is hard to explain.  But at the end of the day, it is not what a person exhibits that defines a leader (or not) but that of people that follow him/her.  One thing that all leaders have in common; a significant group that follows them.  No matters what book you read about "how to be a Leader," it all boils down to whether or not there is a following.

There is a world of difference between President (D) Franklin D Roosevelt • and that of • Chancellor Adolf Hitler (NSDAP).  Yet both of them had a large following and power behind them.  History portrays them very differently; one as being the embodiment of "good" the other an expression of absolute "evil."  But there is no question in history that they each brought their nation under their control and influence.



rylah said:


> And on the side note, the "what Netanyahu wanted all along",
> *well frankly, I'm an Israeli and have no idea what he actually wants,
> and to even assume a leader of his caliber would reveal his strategy, is naive at best.*





Coyote said:


> A leader of his caliber?
> He's a politician - like any other, with an eye towards re-election, and a base to pander to.
> He's never done anything to indicate a support for a two state solution - never.
> So what do you think his aims are?


*(COMMENT)*

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu (Likud) has been in power for more than a decade over what is today the most successful and developing nation in the entire Middle East and North Africa (MENA).  The PM's effective organizational performance and political results have taken a multi-cultural nation _(ethnically, nationally, and whose religious identity is unambiguous)_ to new heights.  He has kept Israel out of major confrontations with the Arab World, and yet maintained a position of strength in one of the more contentious areas of the world.  And the people of Israel know this.  You simply cannot be in such a position, for such a time, with such outcomes → and not be a leader; whether you agree _(on any stance or political agenda)_ with him or not.

As to the two-state solution: When I was a paperboy _(more than a half-century ago)_, on this one particular route I had this mean, ferocious-looking, and growling dog that would follow me, stocking me → as if at any moment - if I was to drop my awareness of him - he would pounce.  Even today, when I think about him, I cannot recall a dog with bigger teeth than his.  But I would rollup a paper and periodically turn towards him and slap my leg and yell at him to get him to back off.  He never did attack me, but for two years(+) we have this adversarial relationship → with me frightened at every confrontation.  Then, one day, the dog was gone.  I don't know where and never knew why, but he was gone.  The two-state solution is like that mad dog of my youth.  The two-state solution is always there, frighteningly close, yet in reality, → a threat never realized.  Maybe because the Israelis growl at it - or maybe because it is just not a good idea for now.  We just don't know.  The current US proposal is just one more trip around the block with the dog trailing behind.

The only difference is that I can't imagine anyone that could have possibly been more scared of something, as I was of the damn dog; least of all, the Israelis afraid of something.




Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Coyote (Feb 27, 2020)

So really...the only plausable outcome is some form of a single state?


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Feb 27, 2020)

Coyote said:


> So really...the only plausable outcome is some form of a single state?


No, the only plausible outcome is the status quo but with Israeli sovereignty over half of area C.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 27, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > So really...the only plausable outcome is some form of a single state?
> ...


The status quo is not sustainable le long term.  And Israeli soveriegnty means or should mean,  offer of citizenship for all in the area, which imo would be a good thing.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Feb 27, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > So really...the only plausable outcome is some form of a single state?
> ...



The status quo cannot be maintained forever, nor was it meant to last that way.  It's too bad that you don't seem to have the vision or imagination to strive for something better.  For both peoples.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Feb 27, 2020)

Coyote said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Clearly the status quo has been sustainable for a long time already, over 50 years, and since there is no other viable alternative to it, by default it will be sustainable for a long time in the future.  

The areas that Israel will annex contain very few Palestinians, and those that do live there will become residents with nearly all the rights and protections of Israeli citizens and will have the opportunity to apply for Israeli citizenship, as is the case in Jerusalem.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Feb 27, 2020)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


That was heartwarming, but the fact is there is no clear path to any alternative so the status quo, which has been sustainable for over fifty years now, will remain sustainable for the foreseeable future.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 27, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...


They should be granted citizenship if they want it.  Otherwise Israel can not call itself a Democracy and you will have a nation with two distinct and not equal populations.  That certainly give fodder to those who call it apartheid, and will just continue the violence and unrest.  People dont like inequality of rights.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Feb 27, 2020)

Coyote said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


To an anti semite like yourself, that might make sense, but every country has residents who are not eligible for citizenship, so were your vision not so narrowly focused on Israel, you would have to conclude there are no democracies in the world.


----------



## Shusha (Feb 27, 2020)

Coyote said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



This is justification for the use of violence.  It suggests that the path to equality and citizenship is through violence.  Its morally unacceptable and its backwards.  

The Palestinian people should be offered the CHOICE of citizenship, rather than having citizenship forced upon them.  That is entirely fair and reasonable.  There is absolutely nothing unfair or unequal in giving people that choice.  My mother (a US citizen) lived for 50 years in Canada as a permanent resident.  Why?  Because she chose not to apply for Canadian citizenship.  No one is accusing Canada of being an apartheid nation because of the option of permanent residency.


----------



## Shusha (Feb 27, 2020)

The relationship between Israel and the Palestinians is a stalemate.  The status quo will continue until something moves or changes, thus ending the stalemate.  So far, nothing of consequence has changed the position of either side.  

The question then, is what COULD change which would be large enough to end the stalemate?


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL (Feb 27, 2020)

Shusha said:


> The relationship between Israel and the Palestinians is a stalemate.  The status quo will continue until something moves or changes, thus ending the stalemate.  So far, nothing of consequence has changed the position of either side.
> 
> The question then, is what COULD change which would be large enough to end the stalemate?




The victory march will continue until the Palestinian flag flies in Jerusalem and in all of Palestine. Yasser Arafat Quotes - InspyreApp | Inspyre

Nothing  .  The above says it all


----------



## rylah (Feb 27, 2020)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Yes, a leader of his caliber.

Of course a politician, only not like any other, rather most successful PM in modern Israel.
Has his significant place in Jewish history specifically, and as one of the most virtuous and influential leaders in modern history.

There're politicians, and there're outstanding leaders who set the course of history.
And I've never voted for him, or agree with many of his decisions, it's just giving a person his due.

Israel, though this may be taken for granted, turned into world's "Start Up Nation" with Netanyahu,
and it wouldn't be a far stretch to say, with kindness from G-d, the geo-political and economical edge associated with the country today, was for the most part, largely gained during his leadership.

As for the "2 state solution", it seems you just lack basic knowledge.
Netanyahu voted for Gaza disengagement, transferred Hebron to control of PA, and all along the years committed to this idea (including the monumental Bar-Ilan lecture), in spite of wide disagreement from his camp,including just recently. That he even promotes the Trump plan so eagerly, which mostly is a practical vision for that state, further confirms favoring the trajectory of separation as viable option.

As for his aims, I still don't assume to know.
To grasp at the obvious in short sight, doesn't contribute to understanding the motivation behind the actions in a complex situation.


----------



## rylah (Feb 27, 2020)

Shusha said:


> The relationship between Israel and the Palestinians is a stalemate.  The status quo will continue until something moves or changes, thus ending the stalemate.  So far, nothing of consequence has changed the position of either side.
> 
> The question then, is what COULD change which would be large enough to end the stalemate?



If the stalemate is the assumption that Israel practically can't apply sovereignty to all of the land and remain democratic, then I don't buy it. What simply needs to be done is what the International law prescribes - separation of militants from civilian population.

However to go along with the conversation - much can happen:

- Left can be elected and form coalition with Arabs
- Immigration mass influx from South American countries
- Natural demographic shift, crowding of Israel's central area

Or the Trump plan, and for that Arabs need a leader who can do "Jihad on Jihad".


----------



## rylah (Feb 27, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
> ⁜→  Coyote, rylah, et al,
> 
> Leadership:  That is a tough quality about people.  It is hard to explain.  But at the end of the day, it is not what a person exhibits that defines a leader (or not) but that of people that follow him/her.  One thing that all leaders have in common; a significant group that follows them.  No matters what book you read about "how to be a Leader," it all boils down to whether or not there is a following.
> ...



It's strange how times circulate,
once leaders like like Ben-Gurion and Golda Meir opposed any notion about distinct Palestinian people, and they were revered leftist-socialists.

Today a center-right wing leader disengages from Gaza, further accepts autonomy in Judea Samaria as acceptable starting point and basis for negotiations, for granted, but THAT today is judged not enough and too biased in favor of Israel, by the left.

As with the dog, once You grow up strong and evolve, drive a car instead of a bike,
 the chase loses its potential meaning.as perceived initially.


----------



## RoccoR (Feb 27, 2020)

RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→ Coyote,  et al,

BLUF:  The issue of granting citizenship _(the domestic decision)_ is NOT directly related to the form of government.  The 1954 Convention relating to the Status of Stateless Persons is the covenant that covers stateless persons.  Israel is unlikely to deprive a person of acquiring nationality if such deprivation would render him stateless; except where compelling reasons of national security [_Article 13, __International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (CCPR)_].

I don't think that granting citizenship on the basis of Prescription _(continued occupation over a long period of time),_ using the authority of the extended governance over new territory, is going to be a problem.  But that is a domestic issue.  The most probable path to success is that the Question of Palestine should be settled, in some manner, by those that will live with the decisions.



Coyote said:


> They should be granted citizenship if they want it.  Otherwise Israel can not call itself a Democracy and you will have a nation with two distinct and not equal populations.  That certainly give fodder to those who call it apartheid, and will just continue the violence and unrest.  People dont like inequality of rights.


*(COMMENT)*

The decision has nothing to do with Israel being a democracy (or not).  The generalized democratic position on the matter says that:


			
				Chapter I • Article 2(7) • UN Charter said:
			
		

> Nothing contained in the present Charter shall authorize the United Nations to intervene in matters which are essentially within the domestic jurisdiction of any state or shall require the Members to submit such matters to settlement under the present Charter; but this principle shall not prejudice the application of enforcement measures under Chapter Vll.





			
				Chapter VII • Article 51 • UN Charter said:
			
		

> Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defense if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security. Measures taken by Members in the exercise of this right of self-defense shall be immediately reported to the Security Council and shall not in any way affect the authority and responsibility of the Security Council under the present Charter to take at any time such action as it deems necessary in order to maintain or restore international peace and security.




And there is nothing to say that a "democracy" is the best form of government possible for the people of the Middle East and North Africa (MENA).  Israel is currently considered a "parliamentary democracy;" the only democracy of any type in the MENA Region, making it unique among its neighbors.   Walking across the south shore of the Mediterranean Sea:

•  Western Sahara:  "Legal status" of territory and issue of sovereignty unresolved.
•  Morocco:  parliamentary constitutional monarchy
•  Algeria:  presidential republic
•  Tunisia:  parliamentary republic
•  Libya:  in transition _(or Provisional Government)_ from a dictatorship to chaos to the unknown
•  Egypt:  presidential republic
•  Saudi Arabia:  absolute monarchy
•  Jordan:  parliamentary constitutional monarchy
•  Syria:  presidential republic; highly authoritarian regime
•  Lebanon:  parliamentary republic​
Near-regionally — Iraq, Syria, Libya, and Yemen are troubled nations, all with armed conflicts of one intensity or another.  And none of the Arab nations of the Persian Gulf or the Arabian Sea are anywhere close to a democracy.

•  Kuwait:  constitutional monarchy
•  Bahrain:  constitutional monarchy
•  Qatar:  absolute monarchy
•  UAE:  federation of monarchies
•  Oman:  absolute monarchy
•  Yemen:  in transition​
Even, by comparison, the United States is NOT a democracy_ (although many believe it so)_, but rather a "constitutional federal republic."



Most Respectfully,
R​


----------



## RoccoR (Feb 27, 2020)

RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→ Coyote, rylah, et al,



Coyote said:


> So really...the only plausable outcome is some form of a single state?


*(CONSIDER)*

*(5) Prescription:* It means continued occupation over a long period of time by one state of territory actually and originally belonging to another state. Requirements of prescription 

(i) the possession must be peaceful 
(ii) the possession must be public
(iii) the possession must be for a long period of time.​ 
Prescription is the acquisition of territory which belonged to another state, where as occupation is acquisition of _terra nullius_. However, international law does not prescribe any fixed period for prescription.

The acquisition of territory by force was historically recognized as a lawful method for acquiring sovereignty, but has been illegal in international law since the U.N charter came into force.




Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Coyote (Feb 27, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
> ⁜→ Coyote,  et al,
> 
> BLUF:  The issue of granting citizenship _(the domestic decision)_ is NOT directly related to the form of government.  The 1954 Convention relating to the Status of Stateless Persons is the covenant that covers stateless persons.  Israel is unlikely to deprive a person of acquiring nationality if such deprivation would render him stateless; except where compelling reasons of national security [_Article 13, __International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (CCPR)_].
> ...



Yet how can Israel even be a parliamentary democracy of a significant group of people have no rights or representation?  I don't see how that is laudable.


----------



## Shusha (Feb 27, 2020)

Coyote said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
> ...



What significant group of people have no rights or representation?


----------



## Coyote (Feb 27, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



Currently none.  This is just speculation coming from a discussion from post 692.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Feb 27, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


That's not true.  The land Israel is going to annex has very few Palestinians in it so it's not speculation from post 692, but just an expression of your enduring anti semitism.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 27, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



That's your knee-jerk response isn't it?  Screetch anti-semitism?

300,000 Palestinians in Area C.  Very few indeed.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Feb 27, 2020)

Coyote said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


You told a stupid lie and got called for it.  Israel will be annexing approximately half of area C and there are very few Palestinians in that half.  The fact that you work so hard to try to justify your irrational hatred of Israel is proof of your anti semitism.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 27, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...



Oh brother.  Come up with some fresh material please.

I didn't see where it was specified what portion of Area C - only Area C.

I'm sure, though, given you are such a stellar and unbigoted person, you will agree that those Palestinians in the annexed area should be given citizenship and voting rights, if they wish it.  Correct?


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Feb 27, 2020)

Coyote said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Well, the area to be annexed is specified in the Trump plan so if you don't know which area it is then you don't know don't know what is in the Trump plan, which is what this discussion is about.  Holding strong opinions, as you do, that are not based on facts, as yours aren't, is a definition of bigotry: hence with every post you identify yourself as an anti semite.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 27, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...



Again, you and your constant claims of anti-semitism are tiresome, like the person continuously pulling the race card at every perceived slight.

Since the Trump plan hasn't been agreed to by anyone or acted on as a plan - how do you know exactly what is being annexed?  I'll take your word for it.

I noticed you neatly avoid my question.

So I'll repeat it:  _I'm sure, though, given you are such a stellar and unbigoted person, you will agree that those Palestinians in the annexed area should be given citizenship and voting rights, if they wish it.  Correct?_


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Feb 27, 2020)

Coyote said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


The fact that you don't know what Israel is going to annex is another confession of ignorance on your part since the government has been very clear it is going to annex those parts of area C specified in the Trump plan.  Again, you identify yourself as a bigot by holding strong opinions that are not based on facts.

Since you are also ignorant of the fact I had previously answered your question, I will repeat my answer.  The very few Palestinians who may be living on the land to be annexed, who are as per Oslo citizens of the PA, will be given resident status and the opportunity to apply for Israeli citizenship just as the Arabs in Jerusalem were.  Only a rabid anti semite like yourself would think it was a good idea to grant Israelis citizenship to an unrepentant supporter of terrorism against Jews.


----------



## Natural Citizen (Feb 27, 2020)

It's not a Trump plan. It's a Jared Kushner plan. He's a Jewish real estate developer/investor who just happens to be Trump's advisor. He's Israel's guy on the inside. But I'm sure everyone already knew that.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Feb 27, 2020)

Natural Citizen said:


> It's not a Trump plan. It's a Jared Kushner plan. He's a Jewish real estate developer who just happens to be Trump's advisor. But I'm sure everyone already knew that.


Of course it's Trump's plan.  Trump sent Kushner, Greenblatt and Friedman to develop the plan and they he approved it.  They spent two years researching the situation and consulting with both Israel and the Arab states and trying to consult with the PA, which refused, and it is the most widely and deeply researched and detailed plan ever presented.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 27, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...



Ah.  So they will be granted "residency" status...which, presumably can be revoked at any time for any reason...and they can be given the opportunity to "apply" for citizenship...which is extremely difficult for them to get.  They will be unable to vote either.  So they have no say in being annexed and...no guarantee of citizenship once their land is taken over.  Nice!  And you are the one that isn't supposed to be a bigot!  Well done 

Netanyahu proposed annexing a portion of Area C in September...presumably it's what he is talking about now.  According to this article there 65,000 Palestinians (and 11,000 settlers) as of 2016.  That's not "very few".  So why did you lie?


----------



## Indeependent (Feb 27, 2020)

Coyote said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


They will be welcomed by Jordan...not.
More than half of the nations in the UN that pan Israel have business dealings with Israel.
So feel free to cry.


----------



## Picaro (Feb 28, 2020)

Indeependent said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...



There will be no deal; the Arab squatters and their gangster 'leaders' always sabotage talks after a while, or break the agreements almost immediately. As for 'representation' they will sabotage that, too; I'm old to remember when being an Arab Mayor who didn't toe Arafat's line was an automatic death sentence, so forget that silly idea as well. One or more were assassinated almost every week in the late 1950's and throughout the 1960/s.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Feb 28, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Natural Citizen said:
> 
> 
> > It's not a Trump plan. It's a Jared Kushner plan. He's a Jewish real estate developer who just happens to be Trump's advisor. But I'm sure everyone already knew that.
> ...



If you approve of the Trump plan, then you are for a Palestinian state in some form, with some extra land being given to them in the South of Israel, that has always been part of Israel proper.  Then why did you say previously that you are for the present status quo?  It seems that you do have a vision for the future after all.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Feb 28, 2020)

Natural Citizen said:


> It's not a Trump plan. It's a Jared Kushner plan. He's a Jewish real estate developer/investor who just happens to be Trump's advisor. He's Israel's guy on the inside. But I'm sure everyone already knew that.



Jared is also Trump's son-in-law.  Yes, Trump appointed him to craft the plan, since Trump has a few other responsibilities to deal with.  But if Trump rubber-stamped the plan and presented it as American policy, then it can rightfully be called Trump's plan.


----------



## RoccoR (Feb 28, 2020)

RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→ Coyote,  et al,

The Arab Palestinians are not now, citizens of Israel.  The Arab Palestinians are citizens of the quasi territory in dispute_ (sometimes inaccurately referred to as the Occupied Palestinian Territories)_.



Coyote said:


> Yet how can Israel even be a parliamentary democracy of a significant group of people have no rights or representation?  I don't see how that is laudable.


*(COMMENT) (The Short Answer)*

There are two completely different venues.

◈  One Israeli...

◈  One NOT Israeli_*!*_​
The description of a "Parliamentary Democracy" applies to the entire sovereign territory of Israel and the citizenry within.  It does not describe the territory that is NOT claimed as Israeli Sovereign Territory (the One NOT Israeli_*!*_).

The Israeli "Basic Law" guarantees equal rights for *all* Israeli citizens; including Arab-Israelis.  Israeli Rights do not apply to non-citizens (Arab Palestinians living outside Israeli, not Israeli citizen).

This distinction is the same as the distinction the United States makes.  The people of Mexico and Canada _(living outside the US)_ do not have the same rights as Americans_ (living inside the US)_.

*(SIDEBAR ISSUES) (Associated Relevance:  STOP if you are satisfied with the short answer.)*

The Convention Relating to the Status of Stateless Persons is NOT applicable to persons who are at present receiving from organs or agencies of the United Nations other than the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees protection or assistance so long as they are receiving such protection or assistance.  That would include those receiving assistance from the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA).

Nor does the International Law (the Convention Relating to the Status of Stateless Persons) apply to those who have:

◈   Committed a crime against peace, a war crime, or a crime against humanity, as defined in the international instruments drawn up to make provisions in respect of such crimes;

◈   Committed a serious non-political crime outside the country of their residence prior to their admission to that country;

◈  Committed intentional offenses involving the use of explosives and other lethal devices in, into, or against various defined public places with intent to kill or cause serious bodily injury, or with intent to cause extensive destruction of the public place.​*(• ∑ SUMMATION •)*

Not only does the application of International Law prevent Israel from being described as a "parliamentary democracy," various International Laws, taken separately or in concert, endorse and encourage the application of restrictions.




Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Feb 28, 2020)

Coyote said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Again you display your ignorance and dishonesty.  Israeli and US officials are presently mapping out the section of area C to be annexed according to Trump's plan.  There are very few Palestinians in the area.  The few Palestinians in that area will be given residency status and if they apply for Israeli citizenship and have no significant criminal record or ties to terrorism and can credibly pledge allegiance to the state of Israel they will receive Israeli citizenship.  This is the same process that occurs in the US or Europeans countries when residents apply for citizenship.  Your proposal that supporters of terrorism against Jews should become Israeli citizens is bizarre and symptomatic of your anti semitism.  You continue to assume things that aren't true to give you a platform to spout your anti semitism.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Feb 28, 2020)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Natural Citizen said:
> ...


As President Trump has said, his plan is intended as a basis for negotiations and he will support anything both sides agree on.  The Plan specifies that certain reforms must take place within the Palestinian society and culture for the US to recognize a Palestinian state.  These include complete disarming, an end to the martyrs fund, and end to incitement against Jews or Israel in any form, and recognize Israel as a Jewish state and more.  If the Palestinians were able to meet these conditions they would have already had a much larger state back in 2000.  The probability the Palestinians will meet these conditions in the foreseeable future are slim to none, so the status quo will continue to be the only viable solution.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 28, 2020)

;:,*



toomuchtime_ said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...



Again, you bring in NEW information, not currently in the thread ( and unlinked/unsupported) and then lambaste others for dishonesty and antisemitism.  That isn't discussion, it is just a pathetic rant.  I linked to my claims, what Netanyahu said he would annex in the fall, and potential populations affected.  And this all you come up with.

My view is this.  If a country unilaterally annexes a territory, then the people come with it. That is if you consider yourself a civilized state.

If they have been convicted of serious terrorism (ie not rock throwing) then maybe dont extend citizenship.  But citizenship should offered with annexation, not required to be applied for,  when, as linked, it is extremely hard for Palestinians to get, and lack of citizenship imposes signicant restrictions on them.  They did not choose this.  It is being forced on them.

And this is where Idisagree with RoccoR ...if a state considers itself a representative democracy, yet co gains a size key portion of native peoples to whom it refuses to extend citizenship, then it seems to me to be a false claim.

Now go back to telling about dishonesty, lying and antisemitism. That is your predictable fallback position to any argument I notice.


----------



## Shusha (Feb 28, 2020)

Coyote said:


> If they have been convicted of serious terrorism (ie not rock throwing) then maybe dont extend citizenship.  But citizenship should offered with annexation, not required to be applied for,  when, as linked, it is extremely hard for Palestinians to get, and lack of citizenship imposes signicant restrictions on them.  They did not choose this.  It is being forced on them.
> 
> And this is where Idisagree with RoccoR ...if a state considers itself a representative democracy, yet co gains a size key portion of native peoples to whom it refuses to extend citizenship, then it seems to me to be a false claim.



Israel should not be forced to grant citizenship to people hostile to Israel.  And people should not have citizenship forced upon them.  For both these reasons, residency status with an option to apply for Israeli citizenship, and the option for Israel to deny such citizenship is the fairest and best answer.  

Also your article about citizenship being "extremely hard to get" is out of date.  Currently, applications for citizenship for Jerusalem Arab residents are processed in under one year with a success rate of just over 50%.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Feb 28, 2020)

Coyote said:


> ;:,*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The thread is about the Trump plan, and everything I have posted is based on what is in the Plan, while you seek to avoid the Plan by seeking out


Coyote said:


> ;:,*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The thread is about the Trump plan and everything I have posted is based on the Plan, while you cite other sources than the Plan ti justify your extreme hatred of Israel.  The areas specified in the Trump plan contain very few Palestinians; that was  one of the consideration when the Plan was drawn up.  As for citizenship, to become a citizen of Israel or the US or any other country, you have to be able to credibly pledge allegiance to that country, and since polls have shown that at least half of the Palestinians support terrorism against Israel and Jews, a significant number of Palestinians cannot credibly pledge allegiance to Israel at this time and therefore cannot become citizens at this time.  The application process is the way of sorting out which Palestinians can or cannot credibly pledge allegiance to Israel at this time. If you were not such a rabid anti semite you would see how insane it is to demand that Israel grant citizenship to people who support killing random Jews and Israelis.


----------



## RoccoR (Feb 28, 2020)

RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→ Coyote, et al,

I understand.  → I think that you are opposing, not what the Civil and Political Rights Israelis hold, in comparative advantage → but, that you are opposed to the agreement in the Oslo II Accords, made by the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people in any Palestinian territory that is liberated; the Palestine Liberation Organization, (PLO),   Israel holds Area "C" in civil and security stasis.

*(FOOD FOR THOUGHT)*  We have to ask, what Areas are considered liberated by the PLO?  And Mahmoud Abbas is Chairman of the PLO (2004), and Palestinian President (2005).  



Coyote said:


> And this is where I disagree with RoccoR ...if a state considers itself a representative democracy, yet co gains a size key portion of native peoples to whom it refuses to extend citizenship, then it seems to me to be a false claim.
> 
> Now go back to telling about dishonesty, lying and antisemitism. That is your predictable fallback position to any argument I notice.


*(COMMENT)*

The agreement between the Arab Palestinians and Israel, is fairly tattered (I agree); but it is made very clear by *S/RES/465 *(1980) → that the Fourth Geneva Convention (GCIV) is applicable to the Arab territories occupied by Israel since 1967, including Jerusalem. [See _*S/RES/*__*237*_ (1967) _Considering _that all the obligations of the Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War of 12 August 1949 should be complied with by the parties involved in the conflict,]




Most Respectfully,
R


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## RoccoR (Feb 28, 2020)

RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→ Coyote, toomuchtime, et al,

You cannot negotiate away the provision for the protection of national security and crime prevention.



toomuchtime_ said:


> see how insane it is to demand that Israel grant citizenship to people who support killing random Jews and Israelis.


*(COMMENT) *

I have to agree that it would be a very difficult risk assessment for the Israelis to grant citizenship to the Arab Palestinians without a very detailed vetting → for the very reasons I cited in *Posting #721* _supra_.




Most Respectfully,
R


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## Coyote (Feb 28, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
> ⁜→ Coyote, toomuchtime, et al,
> 
> You cannot negotiate away the provision for the protection of national security and crime prevention.
> ...


Then they should not annex.


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## Coyote (Feb 28, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > If they have been convicted of serious terrorism (ie not rock throwing) then maybe dont extend citizenship.  But citizenship should offered with annexation, not required to be applied for,  when, as linked, it is extremely hard for Palestinians to get, and lack of citizenship imposes signicant restrictions on them.  They did not choose this.  It is being forced on them.
> ...



50% isn’t very high.


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## Coyote (Feb 28, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > ;:,*
> ...


Blah blah blah rabid antisemites blah blah blah.


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## toomuchtime_ (Feb 28, 2020)

Coyote said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


I agree, that one work, anti semitism nicely sums up everything you have to say about Israel.


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## toomuchtime_ (Feb 28, 2020)

Coyote said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
> ...


lol  Israel should not annex because the Arabs cannot give up their dreams of killing Jews?


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## Shusha (Feb 28, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



50% isn’t “extremely hard to get”.


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## Shusha (Feb 28, 2020)

Coyote 

Would you agree that the Arab Israelis currently protesting against being forced to become Palestinian citizens should be forced to become Palestinian citizens?


----------



## RoccoR (Feb 28, 2020)

RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→ Coyote, et al,

This is sort of like a contract.  IF one party to the contract does cooperate and that causes the contract to fail, THEN some other remedy must be made available.



Coyote said:


> Then they should not annex.


*(COMMENT) *

 The OSLO Accords had a plan to resolve issues.  The very problems you are concerned about are discussed in the Permanent Status of Negotiations.

◈  Permanent status negotiations will commence as soon as possible, but not later than the beginning of the third year of the interim period, between the Government of Israel and the Palestinian people representatives.

◈  It is understood that these negotiations shall cover remaining issues, including: Jerusalem, refugees, settlements, security arrangements, borders, relations and cooperation with other neighbors, and other issues of common interest. 

1. Disputes arising out of the application or interpretation of this Declaration of Principles. or any subsequent agreements pertaining to the interim period, shall be resolved by negotiations through the Joint Liaison Committee to be established pursuant to Article X above. 

2. Disputes which cannot be settled by negotiations may be resolved by a mechanism of conciliation to be agreed upon by the parties. 

3. The parties may agree to submit to arbitration disputes relating to the interim period, which cannot be settled through conciliation. To this end, upon the agreement of both parties, the parties will establish an Arbitration Committee.​
When the Arab Palestinian people invoke the "Khartoum Resolutions of 1967 _(after the Six-Day War)_" → _(no peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations)_ they are intentionally trying to make the process fail.  And that is one of the main reasons for the prolonged.  Every single one of the past Peace Plans presented over the last half-century requires the parties to come together in a negotiation.   That is part and parcel outlined in the "Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States:"

◈  International disputes by peaceful means in accordance with the Charter.

◈  Both parties have the duty to refrain from propaganda for wars of aggression.

◈  Both parties must refrain from the threat or use of force to violate the existing international boundaries of another State or as a means of solving international disputes, including territorial disputes and problems concerning frontiers of States.

◈  Both parties must refrain from the threat or use of force to violate international lines of demarcation, such as armistice lines, established by or pursuant to an international agreement to which it is a party or which it is otherwise bound to respect.​
Cooperation is a two-way street; some give and some take.    There is an offer made for peace.  The two parties enter into negotiation for the Consideration  _(something of political and security value)_ exchanged between the parties.  Once a negotiation outlines the terms, then an agreement is drawn and the plan is accepted.

The details of the latest _(in a long line of offers)_ peace plan — — absent of dialogue and negotiation in a more formal setting is disregarded,  It becomes clear that the PLO and the Palestinian Authority (PA) will reject the offer and consign it to the round file. 




Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Shusha (Feb 28, 2020)

Coyote said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
> ...



The difference being annexing territory with a Jewish population in need of protection and annexing a hostile population.


----------



## RoccoR (Feb 29, 2020)

RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→ Coyote, et al,

I made a careless mistake which *Toddsterpatriot *caught*.*



RoccoR said:


> This is sort of like a contract.  IF one party to the contract does cooperate and that causes the contract to fail, THEN some other remedy must be made available.



*(CORRECTION) *

This is sort of like a contract.  IF one party to the contract does *NOT* cooperate and that causes the contract to fail, THEN some other remedy must be made available.

Many thanks to our friend "Toddster[atriot."




Most Respectfully,
R


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## Coyote (Feb 29, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote
> 
> Would you agree that the Arab Israelis currently protesting against being forced to become Palestinian citizens should be forced to become Palestinian citizens?


No.

and that is why I said citizenship should be *offered*, not forced.  In fact I said that several times.


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## Coyote (Feb 29, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


A Jewish population that chose, was not forced, to move into an area with a pre-existing and hostile population.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 29, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


I disagree on that.  It’s a 50/50 chance. Not very good for something that is pretty vital to basic rights and protections.


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## Coyote (Feb 29, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


Israel is annexing an area that contained a pre-existing population.  It then moved it’s own people into the region and seems shocked at the hostility.

Personally, I think it is time for hostilities to cease, mutual recognition to commence, and both sides to move towards some sort of political solution.  I actually think annexing could be a good idea if done right, and done right would include:

Citizenship offered to those who want it and haven’t committed heinous crimes of terrorism (and there needs to be an open and transparent process).   The reason I say this, is many Palestinians, specially children, are coerced into plea deals where they plead guilty in order to get home sooner.  Perhaps there needs to be some sort of reconciliation program.

Investment in the Palestinian areas annexed (infrastructure etc.) to bring them in line with their a Jewish counterparts.

Without the first, you are unlikely to have the second...states don’t invest in non-citizens.

Permanent residency does not confer a complete set of rights, for example representation, the ability to travel freely for any length of time etc etc.  For those who prefer that, fine.  But for those that don’t,  50/50 chance at citizenship is not acceptable imo.

The other thing to consider is that citizenship makes that person invested in the state itself.  They have skin in the game and belonging because they CHOSE it.  That strengthens a state more than having a big population of “renters”.

Among the things I actually agree with in the plan are investment and some annexation.  The status quo, where a portion of the population is held under the military justice system while the rest enjoy the full set of rights and protections (especially for minors) under civil law, is unsustainable and this plan does provide some good ideas.

Note:  I am predicting your response will include some form of antisemites and Israel-hating combination of verbiage, so please try to put that in the first line so we move past it quickly.


----------



## Shusha (Feb 29, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote
> ...



It seems to me that providing residency status and the invitation to apply for citizenship is an offer.  There is no point in processing the information of people who don't want it and therefore don't apply.


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## Shusha (Feb 29, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



No, its not "vital" to "basic rights and protections".  As I said before, my mother lived in Canada as a permanent resident for 50 years and was just fine, thank you.  The idea that it is somehow not fine when its done in Israel is suspicious, frankly.

But if you want to discuss WHY these people are being rejected for citizenship, you would have to stop blaming Israel and start putting the responsibility on Arabs.  Are you willing to do that?


----------



## Shusha (Feb 29, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Israel is annexing an area that contained a pre-existing population.  It then moved it’s own people into the region and seems shocked at the hostility.



Do you realize this is Tinmore's argument for why Israel should not exist and for why all the "foreigners" (and he means Jewish foreigners so - Jews) should go back home?  You are justifying hostility by saying, well, if Jews just didn't live in their own homeland, then the Arabs wouldn't be hostile to Jews.  

The presence of Jews in their own homeland is not a violation or a cause for violence.


----------



## Shusha (Feb 29, 2020)

Coyote said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Trump's plan places nearly 100% of Jewish Israelis and 100% of Arab Palestinians under their own respective governments.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Feb 29, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Sounds like you're saying Jews who moved into Judea and Samaria deserve to die.


----------



## RoccoR (Feb 29, 2020)

RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→ Coyote,  et al,

BLUF:  I don't believe there is a common yardstick amount all these issues.



Coyote said:


> Israel is annexing an area that contained a pre-existing population.  It then moved it’s own people into the region and seems shocked at the hostility.


*(COMMENT) *

First, I do not believe that the decision to annex anything new has been made yet.

There is a lot of ground between the time assumption of effective control in the West Bank, Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip in 1967, and the abandonment of Jordanian claim of Sovereignty in 1988 and the Israeli assumption of effective control in the absence of any other government, the Israeli-Egyptian Peace Treaty, the Oslo Accords, the Israeli unilateral from the Gaza Strip, etc, etc, etc...



Coyote said:


> Personally, I think it is time for hostilities to cease, mutual recognition to commence, and both sides to move towards some sort of political solution.  I actually think annexing could be a good idea if done right, and done right would include:


*(COMMENT) *

The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security.

The Government of Israel has decided to recognize the PLO as the representative of the Palestinian people and commence negotiations with the PLO within the Middle East peace process.



Coyote said:


> Citizenship offered to those who want it and haven’t committed heinous crimes of terrorism (and there needs to be an open and transparent process).   The reason I say this, is many Palestinians, specially children, are coerced into plea deals where they plead guilty in order to get home sooner.  Perhaps there needs to be some sort of reconciliation program.


*(COMMENT) *

The decision to exempt "children" (those not yet beyond emancipation) is optional to the Israeli authorities.  Those not beyond emancipation must usually be accompanied by an adult family member.  And this is where is gets politically tricky_ (damned if you do and damned if you don't scenario)_.



Coyote said:


> Investment in the Palestinian areas annexed (infrastructure etc.) to bring them in line with their a Jewish counterparts.
> .


*(COMMENT) *

You mean if annexed, the Israelis would need to bring the infrastructure up to the national standard.  That would be YES in any event.  It has nothing to do with a Jewish Counterpart.  It would be handled the same as other culturally managed areas in Israel.



Coyote said:


> Without the first, you are unlikely to have the second...states don’t invest in non-citizens.
> .


*(COMMENT) *

This has to do with many other things besides "non-citizen" services.



Coyote said:


> Permanent residency does not confer a complete set of rights, for example representation, the ability to travel freely for any length of time etc etc.  For those who prefer that, fine.  But for those that don’t,  50/50 chance at citizenship is not acceptable imo.
> .


*(COMMENT) *

There is no "universal" criteria.  But in terms of disqualifying factors, most of the advanced have similar conditions.



Coyote said:


> The other thing to consider is that citizenship makes that person invested in the state itself.  They have skin in the game and belonging because they CHOSE it.  That strengthens a state more than having a big population of “renters”.
> .


*(COMMENT) *

While that is often true, within the Arab Palestinian culture, that is not the case.  I would like to bring your attention to the Black September.



Coyote said:


> Among the things I actually agree with in the plan are investment and some annexation.  The status quo, where a portion of the population is held under the military justice system while the rest enjoy the full set of rights and protections (especially for minors) under civil law, is unsustainable and this plan does provide some good ideas.
> .


*(COMMENT) *

The variations are due, principally, to the agreed-upon differences responding to the GCIV and the identified difference between Areas A, B. C...  Even within a single venue, there can be differences between the community of one ethnic background and another.  But the differences are, by and large, driven by the minority group forming the community.




Most Respectfully,
R


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## toomuchtime_ (Feb 29, 2020)

Coyote said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Even the UN has recognized how ridiculous you plan to confer citizenship on any Palestinian who wants it is.  In UNGA resolution 194, which anti semites like you often falsely claim established an absolute right of return for the refugees, specified that only those who were willing to live in peace with Jews had that right.  Israel will apply that same principle in determining which of the Palestinians who might live on the land to be annexed will be granted citizenship: hence the requirement to apply for citizenship.  Those Palestinians who want to become Israeli citizens and who can show they are willing to live in peace with Jews and who will pledge allegiance to Israel will become citizens.  

Contrary to you bigoted lies about residency, while residents can't vote in national election, they can vote in local elections if they are living within the boundaries of an Israeli municipality.  They have immediate access to all of Israel's very considerable social welfare services, including Israel's national health service which is far superior to what they currently have.  They have the protection of Israel's labor laws which means Employers in Israel, including the newly annexed lands must pay them and provide the same benefits that Israeli citizens enjoy.  This means they can seek employment anywhere in Israel without special permission.  

While technically a resident can have his or her residency canceled, after annexation, the IDF will no longer have the authority to govern their lives and only the civilian government would be able to do it and the resident would have access to the whole Israeli court system to fight such a move, so it is highly unlikely to happen.

While to your hate warped mind, not conferring citizenship on the Palestinians in the annexed lands calls into question the legitimacy of Israel, the Arab residents in Jerusalem seem to be largely indifferent to citizenship or voting.  Very few apply for citizenship, probably because their friends and families would see it as treasonous, and very few bother to vote in municipal elections despite the fact that their numbers are sufficient to determine the outcome.


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## Coyote (Feb 29, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...


I think they way in which it is done confers intention: inclusion vs exclusion.  If you invite them to apply, the process should easy, expedited and better better than 50/50.  They not immigrants and are not migrating into a new country.


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## toomuchtime_ (Feb 29, 2020)

Coyote said:


> Shusha said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


The process is easy for those who are willing to live in peace with the Jews, and it is appropriately impossible for those who are not.


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## Coyote (Feb 29, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...



Well, your reply was certainly predictable.



> Even the UN has recognized how ridiculous you plan to confer citizenship on any Palestinian who wants it is.



Did you READ what I wrote, or are you so full of hate it in went in one ear and out the other?  From this statement alone, it is obvious you did not or did not comprehend it.

And, without bothering with the rest of the paragraph, Since you have a,ready lied, I will point out I have long and consistently opposed any sort of multigenerational “right of return”.



> Contrary to you bigoted lies about residency, while residents can't vote in national election, they can vote in local elections if they are living within the boundaries of an Israeli municipality.  They have immediate access to all of Israel's very considerable social welfare services, including Israel's national health service which is far superior to what they currently have.  They have the protection of Israel's labor laws which means Employers in Israel, including the newly annexed lands must pay them and provide the same benefits that Israeli citizens enjoy.  This means they can seek employment anywhere in Israel without special permission.



Voting in municipal elections is not the same as voting for the Knesset (are implying it is)?  The Knesset makes the laws that they have to live by and that they have no say in.

There are other differences.

Unlike citizens, their status can be revoked at any time for any reason.  Since 1967, Israel has revoked the permits of over 14,000 Palestinians, often with little warning.  While ties to terror groups is one reason,  many were done because they either moved for a time to the West Bank (for example, to be with family, or because the married a WB resident, and were denied or the process was overly long, the ability to bring the person back) or because they went abroad to study.  All things a citizen doesn’t worry about.

They can not vote in national elections, they don’t have passports, they remain stateless and exist in a legal “no man’s land”.

Which would you rather have?



> While technically a resident can have his or her residency canceled, after annexation, the IDF will no longer have the authority to govern their lives and only the civilian government would be able to do it and the resident would have access to the whole Israeli court system to fight such a move, so it is highly unlikely to happen.[



If permanent residency status is so great, then why are so many East Jerusalem Arabs applying for it, and why is Israel shortening the process to one year (a reasonable fix imo): Israel to dramatically shorten East Jerusalemites’ path to citizenship – report



> While to your hate warped mind, not conferring citizenship on the Palestinians in the annexed lands calls into question the legitimacy of Israel, the Arab residents in Jerusalem seem to be largely indifferent to citizenship or voting.  Very few apply for citizenship, probably because their friends and families would see it as treasonous, and very few bother to vote in municipal elections despite the fact that their numbers are sufficient to determine the outcome.



The only hate-filled, bigoted, warped mind I see is yours.


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## toomuchtime_ (Feb 29, 2020)

Coyote said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


[/QUOTE]
You are confused.  I said you had a warped mind and told bigoted lies.  Try not to misquote me in the future.


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## Coyote (Feb 29, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Shusha said:
> ...



Sounds like you are lying.  Again.


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## toomuchtime_ (Feb 29, 2020)

Coyote said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


We both know I'm not lying.


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## Coyote (Feb 29, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...



I am not the least bit confused, nor do I hate anyone.  I am applying your own words to you, in a very accurate manner.  I am sorry it makes you uncomfortable.  However, anytime your wish to engage in a real discussion, I will be happy to do so without your crappola


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## toomuchtime_ (Feb 29, 2020)

Coyote said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


I have been discussing the issues and I have countered each of your arguments but instead of responding with substantial arguments, you choose to play the victim.


----------



## Coyote (Feb 29, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Israel is annexing an area that contained a pre-existing population.  It then moved it’s own people into the region and seems shocked at the hostility.
> ...




Except I am not making that argument. The argument that Israel SHOULD annex those areas because the Jews there need to be protected from Arab hostility (and, by implication, assigns a less-than value to the rights of the Arabs there) ignores the fact that they were already there when the Jews started creating settlements in that area.  When you CHOOSE to ignore that - you are ignoring half the equation.

I am not justifying the hostility.  Frankly, that is like my saying you are justifying expelling the Arabs because it's the Jewish "homeland".  Is that accurate?


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## Coyote (Feb 29, 2020)

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You are confused.  I said you had a warped mind and told bigoted lies.  *Try not to misquote me in the future.*[/QUOTE]

Please attempt the same on your part

Thanks


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## toomuchtime_ (Feb 29, 2020)

Coyote said:


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Please attempt the same on your part

Thanks [/QUOTE]
There you go again, playing the victim instead of addressing the issues at hand.


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## Coyote (Feb 29, 2020)

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Frankly, I find the fact that you view those two situations as the same rather suspicious.  

I have a friend who is a permanent (green card) resident in the US, has been for years, probably actually 50.  She is, however, a citizen of Germany and could back any time.  One of the retired faculty members I work with is a British expat (we have lots of them) - he has a permanent residency, but he also maintains his citizenship with the UK.  In none of those cases are they from a population unwillingly annexed by another nation who do not have a place to go back to in that same sense - "going back" would be leaving their place of origin and going to another land.

Seems to me people should be given a choice of citizenship - Israeli, or, maintaining Palestinian citizenship with permanent residency.  But they ought to have that choice because even Palestinian citizenship is limited (there is no nation) and permanent residency can be revoked at any time, or as I pointed out - if they go abroad to study for any length of time, they can lose it.  Unlike your mother or my friends - these people are NOT immigrants.  They are not immigrating to a new country.  They preceded the arrival of the Jewish settlers yet they should have less choice and rights?  No matter how you cut and dice it - permanent residency is NOT the same as citizenship. Unlike citizenship - it can be revoked for any reason at any time. It can cause problems with traveling (example - in the US, under this administrations' various travel bans)

The idea that is is ONLY not fine when it's done in Israel is dishonest frankly and ignores the underlying issues.



> But if you want to discuss* WHY these people are being rejected for citizenship,* you would have to stop blaming Israel and start putting the responsibility on Arabs.  Are you willing to do that?



I kind of did approach that and pointed out it needs to be an open and transparent process - one that takes into account the inequalities of the justice system that encourages many to plea bargain rather than be exonerated through the courts.  Are they rejected for minor offenses or major ones?  What do we know?


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## Coyote (Feb 29, 2020)

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That's so blatantly dishonest I don't see a point in further communication with you.  I wasted a good bit of time putting to gather a response on the issues, and countering your arguments only to get crappola (and very obvious not reading) back from you.  And, given it's a pattern, I don't see it changing.


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## Coyote (Feb 29, 2020)

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There you go again, playing the victim instead of addressing the issues at hand.[/QUOTE]



From the person whining about being "misquoted"?  Grow up.  You addressed nothing I posted, above.

For example:

_Unlike citizens, their status can be revoked at any time for any reason.  Since 1967, Israel has revoked the permits of over 14,000 Palestinians, often with little warning.  While ties to terror groups is one reason,  many were done because they either moved for a time to the West Bank (for example, to be with family, or because the married a WB resident, and were denied or the process was overly long, the ability to bring the person back) or because they went abroad to study.  All things a citizen doesn’t worry about._


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## toomuchtime_ (Feb 29, 2020)

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No, you have not countered my arguments, you have whined about being a victim instead, just as you are doing now.


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## toomuchtime_ (Feb 29, 2020)

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From the person whining about being "misquoted"?  Grow up.  You addressed nothing I posted, above.

For example:

_Unlike citizens, their status can be revoked at any time for any reason.  Since 1967, Israel has revoked the permits of over 14,000 Palestinians, often with little warning.  While ties to terror groups is one reason,  many were done because they either moved for a time to the West Bank (for example, to be with family, or because the married a WB resident, and were denied or the process was overly long, the ability to bring the person back) or because they went abroad to study.  All things a citizen doesn’t worry about._
[/QUOTE]
Every country has rules for green card holders and if they are violated, the person breaks those rules, they are in danger of losing their status, and Israel is no different from other countries in that respect.  What is different about Israel is, as you have noted, that it lives amidst a hostile population, so it must be vigilant about behaviors that might  present security risks.  The decision to revoke residency is not arbitrary, there are strict ruIes of procedure and the opportunity to appeal the decision if it was an error.  It is ridiculous to suggest Israel should be less vigilant about its security because it is inconvenient for some Palestinian residents.  Those who are willing to live in peace with the Jews can become citizens, and those who are not willing to live in peace with Jews do not even deserve residency.  

From the same Haaretz article you quoted,

"Obtaining citizenship demands various procedures like swearing allegiance to the Jewish state and showing some knowledge of Hebrew, but rights groups say the main problem is the social taboo surrounding such a move: Palestinians feel that the process implies recognizing Israel’s sovereignty over East Jerusalem, which they claim as capital of their future state.

That is why most East Jerusalemites continue to live in the city as permanent residents, the same status afforded to non-Jewish foreigners who move to Israel (Jewish immigrants can easily obtain citizenship thanks to the Law of Return)."

Who are East Jerusalem’s ‘permanent residents’?

Since the Palestinian residents of Israel do not show the same interest in Israeli citizenship as you do, you obviously are not speaking for them but only for anti Israelis who pose as pro Palestinian in order to attack Israel.


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## Coyote (Feb 29, 2020)

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[/QUOTE]

And how do you know this?

Their permanent citizenship status can be revoked if they leave the country for more than 7 years.  One major difference from being a citizen.  They can't leave, be an expat, and come back.

Also - you ignored the that in the article I linked to (dated within the past year) - many more Palestinians ARE seeking citizenship and Israel is making a concerted effort to shorten the process. That says to me there is a demand, at least in Jerusalem,  and Israel is attempting to make it quicker.  How do you know that the Palestinians in the annexed area do not want the same thing?  And since we have no idea what Netanyahu plans on annexing, and you've presented nothing to indicate what it is yet - I think it's fair to assume he is standing by his September promise.


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## Shusha (Feb 29, 2020)

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I'm not sure you understand what I am arguing for and how it differs from what you are arguing for.

I'm suggesting that the Arab Palestinians who reside in areas annexed by Israel (which are likely to be small numbers) be granted permanent residency status and invited to apply for Israeli citizenship.  Those who choose not to apply will retain their Palestinian citizenship and be permanent residents of Israel.  Those who choose to apply and meet the criteria will be granted full Israeli citizenship.  

Every bit of this revolves around CHOICE made by the people who are affected by the annexation.  How is this in any way a bad thing?  They get to choose. 

The only ones who don't get to choose in this scenario are those who apply, but can't obtain citizenship due to involvement with terrorist groups or other activities harmful to Israel.  And I think we would both agree that Israel should not be forced to take these people as citizens, yes?


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## rylah (Feb 29, 2020)

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There're 2 false assumptions in this comment:


"They're not immigrants, no country to go back to"
"Arabs preceded Jewish settlers in Judea"
Actually Arabs came from the same countries where they expelled the Jews,
and the only for Arab settlement to precede Jewish settlement, is there area had to be cleansed of Jews, which is exactly what the Arabs managed to do, for a short period, until Jewish re-settlement of Judea.

Vast majority of Arab settlements is on ruins of Jewish towns,
anyway they didn't build much, one city only - Ramla as Caliphates district center,
instead of a capital in Jerusalem...


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## toomuchtime_ (Feb 29, 2020)

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And how do you know this?

Their permanent citizenship status can be revoked if they leave the country for more than 7 years.  One major difference from being a citizen.  They can't leave, be an expat, and come back.

Also - you ignored the that in the article I linked to (dated within the past year) - many more Palestinians ARE seeking citizenship and Israel is making a concerted effort to shorten the process. That says to me there is a demand, at least in Jerusalem,  and Israel is attempting to make it quicker.  How do you know that the Palestinians in the annexed area do not want the same thing?  And since we have no idea what Netanyahu plans on annexing, and you've presented nothing to indicate what it is yet - I think it's fair to assume he is standing by his September promise.[/QUOTE]
First, we know exactly what areas Israel plans on annexing because they are exactly the areas specified in President Trump's plan.  US officials are in Israel now working out exactly how the process will go forward.  Israel is eager for US recognition of sovereignty over the new lands, so it will not diverge from what the US has approved at this time.  

The "surge" in applications the article reports is still just a few thousand out of 350,000, less than 1%, so interest in Israeli citizenship continues to be very low among Arab residents.  This uptick in applications is a good thing.  It shows that Arab residents in Jerusalem finally are beginning to understand that the status of the city is not going to change.  And Israel is working to expedite these applications, another good sign.  Since turnout of Arab residents of Jerusalem is very low in municipal elections, they obviously do not care much about voting in national elections, and since the "surge" in applications remains so low, they obviously are not troubled by the fact that if they leave Israel for too long, they could lose their residency permit.  While you are clearly passionate about citizenship, the Arab residents in Jerusalem are clearly not, so if you are not speaking out for them, why are you speaking out about this?


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## Coyote (Feb 29, 2020)

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This is where I disagree, and I doubt we will come to agreement here.  Thousands of years pass.  People move around.  Many of the Arabs that call themselves Palestinians descended from the original inhabitants of the area, combined with an influx of migrants from other areas.  Those people preceded the new Jewish re-settlement of that area after the founding of Israel as a state.  So yes, the Jewish people are "reclaiming" ancient territory from thousands of years ago.  And yes, in some of those cases they are re-establishing towns they were driven out of during the relatively recent conflicts.  But they also moved into areas that have long been part of the Palestinian home.  The Palestinians are not immigrants.  That isn't a false assumption. And - in some of those areas, they did precede Jewish settlers.

Perhaps we can agree that it is 1) a mess in terms of rights and homeland and 2) the Palestinians themselves must find a way to live with the existence of Israel peacefully.


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## rylah (Feb 29, 2020)

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Allegiance - is exactly what many are missing in these discussions.

Israel is demanded to grant citizenship,
and we see little mention of any obligations.

Pledge of allegiance, and criminal record are two components,
I would add Civil service :

Ambulance, or various social work, this is very important both personal and national experience. If I'm not wrong basic requirement is 2.5 years.
IDF / Border Police service - optional, a choice on both ends. This requires further profiling, while basic requirement is whole 3 years (or more if both parties choose so). I'm sure hundreds, if not thousands, are already involved and will be conscripted by default.
Residency should be the starting point, 4-5 years framework on a road to citizenship.
With voting in the regional committee, and social services of the state.

Pretty much the Zehut platform, watch from minute 2:00...


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## Coyote (Feb 29, 2020)

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[/QUOTE]

I'm going to ask again - how do you know this?  Israel hasn't exactly accepted the plan either.  From my point of view - they are using it as a means of validating annexation.  Beyond that - what are they doing?

So how do you know they are only annexing according to what is laid out in that plan?  All I've seen so far is what Netanyahu stated in the fall.   If you have a source, I'd be interested in reading it.

On the applications - I agree with your assessment (per the bolded).  

I don't think you can claim that they don't care about the ability to be able to leave and lose their residency permits because they simply don't leave.  There have been numerous court cases over this and how it has caused problems, particularly if they have family also in the West Bank.

I also am not sure that you are correct on those that want to request citizenship being so low (just a few thousand).

This is from 2017: East Jerusalem: Palestinians still want to become Israeli citizens

_Since Trump’s declaration on Dec. 7, a long line of Palestinians seeking citizenship curls out daily from the Israeli Interior Ministry’s office in East Jerusalem, which is predominantly Arab and claimed by Palestinian leaders as the future capital of their own independent state.

The line stems from a social media news prank that claimed Israel was “imposing” citizenship on all of the city's Arab residents, who make up about 37% of Jerusalem's population.

The prank exploited real-life aspirations of Palestinians, most of whom still have not been granted citizenship and yearn for a better life here.

Ten years ago, it was taboo for Palestinians in Jerusalem to request Israeli citizenship, but now it is the norm, with thousands of new requests each year, accordiing to Israeli Interior Ministry figures. The wait time is about three years.

Increasing numbers of East Jerusalem Palestinians are choosing to live in Jewish neighborhoods. Separately, greater numbers of  local Palestinians are choosing to send their children to Arabic-language schools using Israeli curricula.

Between the 2016 and the 2017 school years, there was a 14% increase in Arab students studying for Israeli high school enrollment exams, according to municipal statistics*.* Parents want their children to be able to access Israeli universities._​
Actually reading this makes me rethink some things in regards to what I said about Israel not want to grant citizenship or being arbitrary.  Perhaps this is changing as Palestinians, living within Israel, are changing.

RoccoR  I would be curious on your thoughts here, because I got the impression that you did not think citizenship would make a difference in how invested one was in a state (civil society) - if so many are wanting it - doesn't that imply a desire to do so?

If this is in response to the de-facto determination that Jerusalem is no longer on the table, then I think annexation might have the same affect in the WB.  yes? no?


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## Coyote (Feb 29, 2020)

rylah said:


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Not sure I agree.  For example, are the same requirements made of Jews seeking citizenship?  That many years?  And, also - these are people already living there....not migrating in seeking a new beginning.

I 100% agree on the idea of "responsibilities" - for example military service or the non-military equivalent (your first point) - should be part of being a citizen.  To be honest - that should be for any country.

Criminal record I have an issue with (and for that, I wonder if taking something from Mandella's "truth and reconciliation" idea would be good).  Because many Palestinians were under military justice, they did not and do not have the same rights as those under the civil system.  Minors in particular, are urged to plea bargain in order to get home sooner.  They do not have the same degree of representation.  IMO, I think only heinous offenses should be considered - those guilty of terrorism, targeted at civilians, with the intention of killing them.

I will now watch the video


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## Coyote (Feb 29, 2020)

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I listened to the entire thing .... and am finding it intriguing but also, disturbing.

The first part...the "Israelization" of the state vs the "Judiazation"....either a state for all it's citizens vs. a state for Jewish people.  Shouldn't any state - especially one which began with a diverse population - be a state for "all it's citizens"?  Surely it can do so but still maintain an intrinsic Jewish identity?

It would seem that the main goal is to encourage immigration out first, permanent residency second, and a path to citizenship last and most difficult through a lengthy process.  I don't agree with that.  At the least it should mirror that of Jews in time span.


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## Coyote (Feb 29, 2020)

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I guess I did misunderstand, looking more at words than ideas.  Yes, I agree with what you are saying here - choice is vital, and the fact that Israel is attempting (in Jerusalem at least) to speed up the process is very positive.


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## rylah (Feb 29, 2020)

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This is basically the requirement for the newly wed non-Jewish partners with a different citizenship.
Jews have an almost default citizenship process, if a Jew comes alone straight from an enemy state,
without the ability to investigate any of the family or the official records, from what I've seen lately,
are refused entry at the border. Those who do fight for it.

And those are exceptional cases, not many of them, which is not like in our case,
but as far as I understand, the suggestion is along the lines of affirmative action, i.e. some form of erasure of the criminal record, starting on a clean page. 

This is responsibility of the President, on each case, 
and could be considered along the steps to acquiring citizenship.

In some other case, the Righteous of the nations, should accept special treatment as well.


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## rylah (Feb 29, 2020)

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Maybe Hamas supporters gave up applying for Israeli citizenship.


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## rylah (Feb 29, 2020)

Coyote said:


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"Israelization"..."Judaization"...this is all gibberish.
The Jewish state is already a state of all its citizens.
Coincidentally it's those who currently claim it's not, who want the exact Jewish character of the nation that allows that what they call for. In reality, outside these meaningless soundbytes.

One thing is right, it's not immigration, so to suggest this addressed the same manner as Jewish immigration is irrelevant.

This is not a shop of privileges, but a process of a hostile population being separated from militants, given an option of residency and further citizenship.

Let's not talk in terms of warming up popcorn in a micro.


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## Coyote (Feb 29, 2020)

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I will put this up front, Rylah - sometimes I think we disagree (violently) because like two ships passing in the night, we don't understand each other.

Can you tell me what you mean by this?''
_Coincidentally it's those who currently claim it's not, who want the exact Jewish character of the nation that allows that what they call for. In reality, outside these meaningless soundbytes.
One thing is right, it's not immigration, so to suggest this addressed the same manner as Jewish immigration is irrelevant._


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## Coyote (Feb 29, 2020)

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They would not, in the first place, would they?


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 1, 2020)

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Indeed, Israel wants to complete its settler colonial project.


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## RoccoR (Mar 1, 2020)

RE:  Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground  
⁜→   Coyote,

Wanting a given status _(citizenship in this case)_ has behind it → some level of expectation.  *IF* it did not, *THEN* what motivated the want.  And there is the paradox.    The greater the multitude of new citizens, the greater the demand for the expectation_ (wants and needs)_ → the greater the pull on resources and the thinner the distribution of resources across the population of new citizens.  The resources needed are essentially → government expenditures made to the recipients (the new citizens) received in which no new increase in government revenue _(income to treasury)_ being paid for the subsidy the influx of new dependent _(unemployed and those underemployed)_ citizens for what is necessary to provide the same level of services received by any other citizen.



Coyote said:


> RoccoR  I would be curious on your thoughts here, because I got the impression that you did not think citizenship would make a difference in how invested one was in a state (civil society) - if so many are wanting it - doesn't that imply a desire to do so?


*(COMMENT)*

This type of decision is going to require years of planning in advance to accommodate the transition.  Just the water/sewer requirements are going to need to be addressed, medical care, new fire protection requirements, and a new law enforcement base to deal with the insurgency that will arise.  Just to make Vaccination programs and School Breakfast programs available to the new children is not inexpensive, let along with the wellness programs - and the new requirement to increase ready reserve anti-toxins/antidotes.  There are just enormous numbers of little hidden costs that will create a new level of tax burden on the existing Israeli Population.  Such a move is going to deplete_ (almost immediately)_ and discretionary and contingency funds at the current level.

What am I talking about?  Both the current citizenry are going to feel the pinch - and the new citizens are not going to find the milk and honey they expect.  Israelis will have a rise in the outbursts and clashes with no insignificant number of former _(and some not so former)_ Hostile Arab Palestinians.  How are you going to turn around children like Ahed Tamimi?  _(Boy, would you like to be the fly on the wall for those anger management classes.)_

And I don't think that I'm the only one that when to civil and city planning /human ecology classes.





Most Respectfully,
R


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## rylah (Mar 1, 2020)

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This time it's because of me,
 I've somehow deleted a part in the 1st sentence.

The 'state of all its citizens' is a meaningless soundbyte,
used by those who want to cancel the Jewish character of Israel,
that provides the equality and quality of life to all the non Jewish citizens.

I don't understand one thing as well, first you say its not an immigration matter,
then in the same breath say immigration policy should be framework.
Only makes sense if the argument is to change it, see above.


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## rylah (Mar 1, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


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Silly soundbytes supposed to convince me
to support the  Jihadi colonial project?


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## rylah (Mar 1, 2020)

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Majority of terrorists in the 2015 wave of stabbing attacks,
had either Israeli citizenship or residency status,
and lived in towns ruled by PA.


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## Coyote (Mar 1, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
> ⁜→   Coyote,
> 
> Wanting a given status _(citizenship in this case)_ has behind it → some level of expectation.  *IF* it did not, *THEN* what motivated the want.  And there is the paradox.    The greater the multitude of new citizens, the greater the demand for the expectation_ (wants and needs)_ → the greater the pull on resources and the thinner the distribution of resources across the population of new citizens.  The resources needed are essentially → government expenditures made to the recipients (the new citizens) received in which no new increase in government revenue _(income to treasury)_ being paid for the subsidy the influx of new dependent _(unemployed and those underemployed)_ citizens for what is necessary to provide the same level of services received by any other citizen.
> ...



Ok...but the alternative is WHAT if Israel annexes, which it is seemingly going to do now that it has a green light.

Would the alternative be to keep them as non-citizens, WITHOUT the investment that citizens receive for their communities? That would seem to perpetrate resentment and anger.

You can't turn around everyone.  For example, Miss Tamimi (don't see an answer for that one!) - but you also have Jewish extremists, like the Kahanists, who aren't going to support the idea that the annexed Palestinians would have national citizenry rights.


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## Coyote (Mar 1, 2020)

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I guess I don't see how that would cancel the Jewish character of Israel.  Israel has been established as a Jewish state, culturally, for a long time.  Likewise, as a state that is the homeland of the Jewish people, who retain a special right of "return".  Those have been enshrined for a long time without needing to be specified.  That isn't going to change by recognizing that Israel is also nation of multiple peoples - not of immigrants per se, but multiple people's who were there from it's inception and who chose to accept citizenship.



> I don't understand one thing as well, first you say its not an immigration matter,
> then in the same breath say immigration policy should be framework.
> Only makes sense if the argument is to change it, see above.




Not sure....


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## rylah (Mar 1, 2020)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
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What do you mean by "doesn't need to be specified",
I though we were discussing exactly the specific details of a process to acquire citizenship.

Following obligations they can accept citizenship in the Jewish nation state,
multiple peoples can object, and seek multiple national aspirations somewhere else. 

Jews were loyal to any Arab rule in the middle east,
in spite having no option for citizenship, and predating their arrival...just sayin'.


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## RoccoR (Mar 1, 2020)

RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→ Coyote, rylah, et al

BLUF:  While eventually, no one brings the major question to the forefront • lurking in the background is the issue of "self-determination."  But → here again, this is going to be a domestic Israeli debate and not one for the US to become involved in.



			
				Coyote said:
			
		

> You can't turn around everyone. For example, Miss Tamimi (don't see an answer for that one!) - but you also have Jewish extremists, like the Kahanists, who aren't going to support the idea that the annexed Palestinians would have national citizenry rights.





rylah said:


> Jews were loyal to any Arab rule in the middle east, in spite of having no option for citizenship, and predating their arrival...just sayin'.


*(COMMENT)*

The concept of "self-determination" never really goes away.  While the population of the West Bank (2.7 Million people) is not going to change the influence of the Jewish people (overall), it is enough to throw the government into chaos (coalition government change). But it would also have an impact on the magnitude of the exploitation of Arab Palestinians from the annexed territories.  No one knows just how that will alter the balance of influence, power and impact employment exploitation.  

I don't think that all 2.7M West Bankers will get citizenship immediately  As we look at Jerusalem as an example, we see that a significant number of Arab residents of East Jerusalem rejected offers of Israeli citizenship and boycott municipal elections or any other Israeli election process.  

So, I will be surprised if the Arab Palestinians that qualify to vote, opt to vote and instead choose to remain outside the Israeli democratic process.  I simply don't know how all this interacts without some measure of chaos emerging.




Most Respectfully,
R


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## toastman (Mar 1, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


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That’s exactly what the Arab Muslims want to do , but it will never happen because Israel is in their way . Deal with it


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## Coyote (Mar 1, 2020)

rylah said:


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I was jumping tracks a bit. I  meant Israel's Jewish character and status as the homeland for the Jewish people.



> Following obligations they can accept citizenship in the Jewish nation state,
> multiple peoples can object, and seek multiple national aspirations somewhere else.



They shouldn't have to go elsewhere - this is their homeland - they should have the same path to citizenship as Jews do.



> Jews were loyal to any Arab rule in the middle east,
> in spite having no option for citizenship, and predating their arrival...just sayin'.



And was or is that a good thing?


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## toomuchtime_ (Mar 1, 2020)

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I'm going to ask again - how do you know this?  Israel hasn't exactly accepted the plan either.  From my point of view - they are using it as a means of validating annexation.  Beyond that - what are they doing?

So how do you know they are only annexing according to what is laid out in that plan?  All I've seen so far is what Netanyahu stated in the fall.   If you have a source, I'd be interested in reading it.

On the applications - I agree with your assessment (per the bolded). 

I don't think you can claim that they don't care about the ability to be able to leave and lose their residency permits because they simply don't leave.  There have been numerous court cases over this and how it has caused problems, particularly if they have family also in the West Bank.

I also am not sure that you are correct on those that want to request citizenship being so low (just a few thousand).

This is from 2017: East Jerusalem: Palestinians still want to become Israeli citizens

_Since Trump’s declaration on Dec. 7, a long line of Palestinians seeking citizenship curls out daily from the Israeli Interior Ministry’s office in East Jerusalem, which is predominantly Arab and claimed by Palestinian leaders as the future capital of their own independent state.

The line stems from a social media news prank that claimed Israel was “imposing” citizenship on all of the city's Arab residents, who make up about 37% of Jerusalem's population.

The prank exploited real-life aspirations of Palestinians, most of whom still have not been granted citizenship and yearn for a better life here.

Ten years ago, it was taboo for Palestinians in Jerusalem to request Israeli citizenship, but now it is the norm, with thousands of new requests each year, accordiing to Israeli Interior Ministry figures. The wait time is about three years.

Increasing numbers of East Jerusalem Palestinians are choosing to live in Jewish neighborhoods. Separately, greater numbers of  local Palestinians are choosing to send their children to Arabic-language schools using Israeli curricula.

Between the 2016 and the 2017 school years, there was a 14% increase in Arab students studying for Israeli high school enrollment exams, according to municipal statistics*.* Parents want their children to be able to access Israeli universities._​
Actually reading this makes me rethink some things in regards to what I said about Israel not want to grant citizenship or being arbitrary.  Perhaps this is changing as Palestinians, living within Israel, are changing.

RoccoR  I would be curious on your thoughts here, because I got the impression that you did not think citizenship would make a difference in how invested one was in a state (civil society) - if so many are wanting it - doesn't that imply a desire to do so?

If this is in response to the de-facto determination that Jerusalem is no longer on the table, then I think annexation might have the same affect in the WB.  yes? no?[/QUOTE]
If you have been following Israeli news, then you know that Netanyahu is planning on annexing only the lands specified in Trump's plan.  He has fully embraced it, he has praised it and the annexation is now being planned with Trump's representatives.  Since the plan reserves the rest of Judea and Samaria for a Palestinian state if the Palestinians meet the conditions laid out in the plan to annex more than the plan specifies, would amount to rejecting the plan and that would mean the US would not recognize Israeli sovereignty over the land annexed.  There simply is no rational basis for suspecting Netanyahu will annex more land than the plan specifies at this time.  Nothing Netanyahu may have said before the plan was revealed is relevant.

The TOI link you provided contained a link to another article that defined the surge.  It went from a few hundred applying for citizenship to a little less than two thousand.  A surge compared to the number that were applying before but not compared to the population of Palestinians in Jerusalem.  You mentioned a friend who is a British citizen but has been living in the US for many years with a green card.  She cannot vote in elections in the US and if she were to leave for an extended period of time, she would lose her green card, yet these inconveniences don't seem to bother her.  I suspect you see this issue as a backdoor to a one state agreement but all the polls of Palestinians show the overwhelming majority of them don't want one state so it shouldn't be a surprise to you that they have so little interest in Israeli citizenship.


----------



## Shusha (Mar 1, 2020)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Following obligations they can accept citizenship in the Jewish nation state,
> ...



Working from a practical perspective, ultimately, individuals who end up on the "wrong" side of a border are going to have to choose between staying where they are and living in a nation built for the needs of a different culture or moving and living in a nation built around their own culture.

I don't think it is at all unreasonable for individuals to make this choice.


----------



## Coyote (Mar 1, 2020)

Shusha said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...




Kind of depends what  that nation, who is annexing their homes, decides.  They have no say in the matter.


----------



## Coyote (Mar 1, 2020)

> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...





> If you have been following Israeli news, then you know that Netanyahu is planning on annexing only the lands specified in Trump's plan.  He has fully embraced it, he has praised it and the annexation is now being planned with Trump's representatives.  Since the plan reserves the rest of Judea and Samaria for a Palestinian state if the Palestinians meet the conditions laid out in the plan to annex more than the plan specifies, would amount to rejecting the plan and that would mean the US would not recognize Israeli sovereignty over the land annexed.



I have not seen in the general news - do you have a link?




> There simply is no rational basis for suspecting Netanyahu will annex more land than the plan specifies at this time.  Nothing Netanyahu may have said before the plan was revealed is relevant.
> 
> The TOI link you provided contained a link to another article that defined the surge.  It went from a few hundred applying for citizenship to a little less than two thousand.  A surge compared to the number that were applying before but not compared to the population of Palestinians in Jerusalem.  You mentioned a friend who is a British citizen but has been living in the US for many years with a green card.  She cannot vote in elections in the US and if she were to leave for an extended period of time, she would lose her green card, yet these inconveniences don't seem to bother her.  I suspect you see this issue as a backdoor to a one state agreement but all the polls of Palestinians show the overwhelming majority of them don't want one state so it shouldn't be a surprise to you that they have so little interest in Israeli citizenship.



There is a difference that I don't think you understand.  The people I mentioned who have green cards - moved to the US and chose retain their original citizenship.  The US did not take them over.  The Palestinians being annexed are home.  That is their homeland.  Under PA rule - they (theoretically) had rights to vote for their representatives as citizens (realistically there hasn't been an election in years and it's overwhelmingly corrupt, no need to beat that dead horse).  They are being annexed, by a foreign state, with no say in the matter.  IMO, that means they should have a right to choose to become citizens of that new state, and have all the rights and responsibilities that entails (barring major crimes).  If they choose. 

On the one state agreement...vs two.  What do the Palestinians want?  A two-state solution, unless you go with the ideas flacaltenn proposed, which I like better than the Trump plan - or, you go with some version of what's proposed in the Trump plan, is no longer very tenable.  From what I've read - support for a two state solution has been dropping  both on the Palestinian side and on the Israeli side.  What have you read?


----------



## flacaltenn (Mar 1, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...



That's great input.. Wasn't aware of the increased "assimilation" desires of the Palis, but there's a small fraction will to go those lengths to KEEP the relatively high level of prosperity that they currently have..

There's an increasing "odor" that all the parties have given up.. And my take is that the Palestinians are NOT thrilled by all the "nation state actors" SUGGESTING what they need to do.. ALL of these failed plans EXPECT at the get-go that the Palis will adopt some form of "nation state" govt and look and ACT like all the other "nation states" on the planet.. THIS is untenable to the majority of them who have REJECTED both the "Arafat model" and the "PA model"...

They DO NOT want to be FORCED to form coalitions between Fatah and Hamas and pretend it's any kind of "unity government".. The boundaries of their tribal, familiar, and locality allegiances just get too strained.. They see only GRAFT AND CORRUPTION resulting from a such a construct..

What I THINK they want is to live their lives with the freedom to TRAVEL and TRADE and have enough leadership at the local levels to provide that security and infrastructure.. Doubt they are even INSISTENT on "right of return" if it applies GENERALLY to ANYONE that claims "Palestinian citzenship" not CURRENTLY in Palestine.

If the annexation is a MUTUAL effort to establish LIVABLE and relatively free lives and PROVIDES that freedom to trade and travel and relative AUTONOMY on the local scale --- I think that's where this HAS to head towards...


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Mar 1, 2020)

Coyote said:


> > toomuchtime_ said:
> >
> >
> > > Coyote said:
> ...


The Palestinians are not being annexed, the land is being annexed.  This is a good thing for the Palestinians living there.  They have been living under Israeli civil and security governance since 1967, and now they will still be living under Israeli civil and security governance, but now they live under the Civil Administration, which is part of the IDF and after annexation, they will be living under the civil government the same as the rest of Israel.  Their situation will be unchanged other than having access to all of Israel's considerable social services and being able to travel, work and live anywhere in Israel, things they have no access to now.  They will remain citizens of the PA and will be able to vote in PA elections if they ever have them.  

My point about your friend from the UK, is that she does not find not being able to vote in US elections or lose her green card if she leaves the  US for too long sufficiently inconvenient to apply for US citizenship just as the vast majority of Palestinian residents in Israel do not find these things sufficiently inconvenient to apply for Israeli citizenship.  You obviously have an agenda that is different from that of the Palestinian residents in Israel.

Netanyahu has been talking about the Trump plan and annexation frequently.  If you do a Google search you will find lots of quotes on the subject.  Here's one:

President Donald Trump’s “Deal of the Century”, said Netanyahu, “is the opportunity of a century for Israel. It enables Israel to secure our vital security and our vital national interests by recognizing Israel’s sovereignty over the Jordan Valley and over the Jewish communities that flourish in the heart of our ancestral homeland. It leaves open a path to a political settlement with the Palestinians, and it will help enable Israel to normalize our relations with our other Arab neighbors in the years ahead.”

“Last week, a joint US-Israel mapping committee began its work. It’s working as fast as possible to finish the job. I believe that work should be finished in the next couple of months. Israel would then apply its laws to all those territories that are designated by the Trump plan as being a part of Israel, and the United States will recognize those territories as part of Israel. This will be a truly historic day.”

“The map of Israel will change, the future of Israel will change, and it will change for the better,” said Netanyahu.

Netanyahu: Deal of the Century is the opportunity of a century for Israel - Jewish World


----------



## rylah (Mar 2, 2020)

Coyote said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...





> They shouldn't have to go elsewhere - this is their homeland - they should have the same path to citizenship as Jews do.



The issue here is not that they're not Jews,
 that is not what's going to solve it either, if I understand what you try to address here in practical terms.

But that they're subjects of an enemy state.
Even a Jew with American citizenship, say lived as resident under PA rule and participated in their hostilities, and/or public declaration of commitment to Israel's destruction or it enemies - would be as well considered potential danger to national security.

What we need here is a comprehensive framework, and time for people to decide if they want to apply for citizenship and join the Israeli Arab minority, or stay as residents and significantly increase their social security and quality of life, as well the.political power through regional elections that take place regularly,compared to citizenship under PA.

Except for destroying Israel, all the options are available, including applying for citizenship in any of the available countries with Arab majority where they expelled all they Jews.




> Jews were loyal to any Arab rule in the middle east,
> in spite having no option for citizenship, and predating their arrival...just sayin'.
> 
> And was or is that a good thing?



If they wanted to stay, that was the right thing to do,
In spite owning property there, Israelis don't demand those become their countries - and that's exactly the reason why some of them are reversing immigration policy for Jews they've expelled.

Morocco and Spain could only introduce those legal paths to citizenship knowing Jews didn't and are not conquering or claiming their countries, or sabotage their national sovereignty.

I have been saying this all along - if Arabs joined Israel and recognized its sovereignty, instead of fighting by default, we could all have mansions with enough land for each to graze our stock.


----------



## xyz (Mar 2, 2020)

rylah said:


> xyz said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


Hamas kind of sucks, but the question is, is radicalization a reaction to Israel's policy?


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Mar 2, 2020)

xyz said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > xyz said:
> ...


What policy are you referring to?  Israel's existence?


----------



## rylah (Mar 8, 2020)

*Brazilian President Bolsonaro 'lauds' US peace plan*
*Trump hosts Bolsonaro at Mar-a-Lago resort in Florida, where the 2 discuss a range of issues.*







President Donald Trump on Saturday hosted Brazilian President Jair Bolsonaro for dinner at his Mar-a-Lago resort in Florida, where they spoke about topics including Venezuela, a future trade deal, the Middle East and collaboration in military research.

A joint statement released by the two leaders after the meeting said they had "reaffirmed the strategic alliance between the United States and Brazil, deepening the partnership between their two countries. The two leaders focused on increasing economic prosperity, strengthening democracy, and promoting peace and security."

"President Trump and President Bolsonaro reiterated their countries’ support for democracy in the region, including Interim President of Venezuela Juan Guaidó and the democratically elected Venezuelan National Assembly as they work to restore constitutional order in Venezuela. The two leaders also discussed supporting Bolivia’s efforts to conduct free and fair elections.

"President Trump and President Bolsonaro reiterated their commitment to peace and prosperity in the Middle East, and President Bolsonaro lauded the United States’ vision for the peaceful coexistence of the State of Israel and a Palestinian state.

"As leaders of the two largest economies in the hemisphere, President Trump and President Bolsonaro noted the potential benefits to American and Brazilian workers and businesses of growing the bilateral economic relationship. To this end, they instructed their trade officials to deepen discussions for a bilateral trade package this year, with a view towards intensifying the economic partnership between their two countries.

"The two leaders also discussed expediting Brazil’s participation in the Trusted Trader program, to streamline commerce between both countries by ensuring the security and safety of imported goods, with a goal of program entry in 2021.

"President Trump reiterated the United States’ support for Brazil beginning the accession process to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) and urges its OECD partners to work with the United States towards this goal, which will help grow the Brazilian economy and its competitiveness.

"The two leaders noted that their teams are finalizing other areas of bilateral cooperation, including collaboration in military research and development and signing an América Cresce Memorandum of Understanding to stimulate economic development in the hemisphere. They also lauded other areas of ongoing cooperation such as aerospace, science and technology, health, and innovation.

"Both presidents also discussed the Trillion Trees Initiative, an effort seeking to re-grow, save from loss, and better protect one trillion trees around the world by 2050, through collective action by all sectors of society. The two leaders also welcomed the signing of the United States-Brazil Working Plan for Science and Technology 2020-2023 as a key instrument for joint research and promotion of new technologies."

*Arutz Shev'a*


----------



## rylah (Mar 8, 2020)

*"Sovereignty within months if PA doesn't return to negotiations"*
*Senior US diplomats: We will approve sovereignty within months if Palestinian Arabs don't return to negotiating table.*







The Trump administration is planning to signal its approval for Israel to declare sovereignty in Judea, Samaria and the Jordan Valley within months, despite the political situation in the country if the Palestinians Arabs do not return to the negotiating table.

_Channel 13 News_ political correspondent Barak Ravid reported that the White House is moving forward with the implementation of President Trump's peace plan. The main issue at stake at this stage is the work of the Israeli-American Joint Committee, which is precisely marking the territories in Judea and Samaria that the United States will recognize as part of Israel under the Trump plan, and which Israel will be able to annex if it wishes to do so.

President Trump's senior adviser Jared Kushner said in a closed briefing to Democratic and Republican senators yesterday that the mapping [of areas to be included in Israeli jurisdiction] is expected to continue for several more months.

According to Ravid's report, Kushner emphasized that if the Palestinian Arabs decide to return to negotiations during this time period, they may have an opportunity to improve on the proposal but if they fail to do so, the sovereignty process will continue and "they will have only themselves to blame."

*"Sovereignty within months if PA doesn't return to negotiations" - Israel National News*


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Mar 9, 2020)

rylah said:


> *"Sovereignty within months if PA doesn't return to negotiations"*
> *Senior US diplomats: We will approve sovereignty within months if Palestinian Arabs don't return to negotiating table.*
> 
> 
> ...



The train has left the station, and the Palestinian Arabs haven't even bought a ticket or entered the platform yet.


----------



## RoccoR (Mar 10, 2020)

RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→ ForeverYoung436, et al

This is just more evidence that the Arab Palestinians, as a "potential" for self-determination, culturally and politically suicidal.  Which, come to think of it, should not be all that surprising.

_"The Arabs of Palestine made a solemn declaration before the United Nations, before God and history, that they will never submit or yield to any power going to Palestine to enforce partition."_
................................................................................................_Isa Nakhleh_
...................................................................................................................Representative of the Arab Higher Committee
...................................................................................................................Statement of 6 February 1948 Communicated to the Secretary-General​


ForeverYoung436 said:


> The train has left the station, and the Palestinian Arabs haven't even bought a ticket or entered the platform yet.


*(COMMENT)*

Yes...  There is little doubt that the Arab Palestinians lacked the capacity and ability to develop a leadership that was actually capable of putting together a provisional government that was functional.  

The historical records show that the Arab Palestinians dwindled away their legacy.  That they did not intend to pursue a diplomatic track leading to political independence.  That over time, their inability to compromise and demand "all or nothing," may _(in the end)_ get them "nothing."



Most Respectfully,
R


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 10, 2020)

flacaltenn said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...





flacaltenn said:


> Wasn't aware of the increased "assimilation" desires of the Palis, but there's a small fraction will to go those lengths to KEEP the relatively high level of prosperity that they currently have..


It is a decision forced upon them in order to continue living in their homeland. Should they seek citizenship in the occupation or risk being ethnically cleansed as many Jerusalemites have.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Mar 10, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...





toomuchtime_ said:


> The Palestinians are not being annexed, the land is being annexed. This is a good thing for the Palestinians living there.


It is illegal to annex occupied territory.

No matter how important Trump thinks he is, he is not the arbiter of international law.


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## Hollie (Mar 10, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



As a self-professed arbiter of international law it's odd you use cut and paste slogans without knowing what international law actually defines.

That would suggest you are not the arbiter of international law, no matter how many times you cut and paste slogans.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Mar 10, 2020)

Hollie said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...


Its true, look it up.

Of course you won't. Zionists prefer to be stupid.


----------



## RoccoR (Mar 10, 2020)

RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→ P F Tinmore, 

I'm never really sure when you think you know something, as distinguished from, actually knowing something.



P F Tinmore said:


> It is illegal to annex occupied territory.
> No matter how important Trump thinks he is, he is not the arbiter of international law.


*(QUESTION)*

What actual "law" (in force) are you citing when you say this?




Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Hollie (Mar 10, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



I looked it up. Apparently you didn’t. 

You claim to cite international law yet you can’t cite such international law. 

Rather than getting angry and emotive, cite the relevant law.

Link?


----------



## Hollie (Mar 10, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...



Claiming to be helpless is an excuse that’s getting old.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Mar 10, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
> ⁜→ P F Tinmore,
> 
> I'm never really sure when you think you know something, as distinguished from, actually knowing something.
> ...


Of all people, Rocco, you should know this.

These rules underline the basic concern of the law of occupation, which is to maintain the status quo ante (i.e. as it was before) in the occupied territory as far as is practically possible. This makes sense. *The annexation of conquered territory is prohibited by international law.* This necessarily means that if one State achieves power over parts of another State’s territory by force or threat of force, the situation must be considered temporary by international law. 

https://www.icrc.org/en/doc/assets/files/other/law9_final.pdf​


----------



## P F Tinmore (Mar 10, 2020)

rylah said:


> *Brazilian President Bolsonaro 'lauds' US peace plan*
> *Trump hosts Bolsonaro at Mar-a-Lago resort in Florida, where the 2 discuss a range of issues.*
> 
> 
> ...


Birds of a feather...


----------



## P F Tinmore (Mar 10, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> Yes... There is little doubt that the Arab Palestinians lacked the capacity and ability to develop a leadership that was actually capable of putting together a provisional government that was functional.


You are forgetting about the US coup in Palestine that installed Fatah (The losers of the elections.) in the West Bank.


----------



## RoccoR (Mar 10, 2020)

RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→ P F Tinmore,

Oh yes!  I know this.  And you did not answer the question...



P F Tinmore said:


> Of all people, Rocco, you should know this.
> 
> These rules underline the basic concern of the law of occupation, which is to maintain the status quo ante (i.e. as it was before) in the occupied territory as far as is practically possible. This makes sense. *The annexation of conquered territory is prohibited by international law.* This necessarily means that if one State achieves power over parts of another State’s territory by force or threat of force, the situation must be considered temporary by international law.
> 
> https://www.icrc.org/en/doc/assets/files/other/law9_final.pdf​


*(ASKING THE QUESTION   A G A I N)*

What actual "law" _(in force)_ are you citing when you say this?

*(COMMENT)*

You cited a "national level"_ (not an international)_ lesson plan.  And you will notice that the paragraph you cited on Slide 9-9 does NOT have an international law citation like the interpretations above and below.  Why?  Because that is an "interpretation" and NOT "LAW."



 ​In my day, this was often referred to as "Hip Pocket Training" by Sergeants.




Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## RoccoR (Mar 10, 2020)

RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→ P F Tinmore,

Was there a "coup?"



P F Tinmore said:


> You are forgetting about the US coup in Palestine that installed Fatah (The losers of the elections.) in the West Bank.


*(COMMENT)*

Damn, I missed that...




Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Hollie (Mar 10, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
> ...


The Red Cross cut and paste is one you have used many time before in a failed attempt to support a specious clsim.

The Red Cross is not a law making body. The bolded text identifies *States*.

Still.....

Link?


----------



## Hollie (Mar 10, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Yes... There is little doubt that the Arab Palestinians lacked the capacity and ability to develop a leadership that was actually capable of putting together a provisional government that was functional.
> ...


In your islamic part of the world, terms, definitions and a reality based worldview account for very little.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Mar 10, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



*It is illegal to annex occupied territory.*

Who owns the territory before it is annexed?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Mar 10, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
> ⁜→ P F Tinmore,
> 
> Was there a "coup?"
> ...





RoccoR said:


> Damn, I missed that...


Indeed you did. Israeli propaganda (your favorite source of information.) says that a Hamas coup took over Gaza.

Of course that is just bullshit.


----------



## Hollie (Mar 10, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
> ...


So.... we're left with your usual conspiracies of a coup (that never happened) and your inability to cite international laws (which don't exist), as an argument.

Indeed.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Mar 19, 2020)




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## rylah (Mar 20, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


>




"50$ billion only after Pal  state established"
and "illegal under international law"


This is as much detached from facts as your understanding of the current situation in the middle east.
How about instead of parroting none sense like that,

*read *the thing once?


(P.S. Seriously, how do they even allow people like you as "teachers" into the US educ. system?)


----------



## member (Mar 25, 2020)

rylah said:


> Much speculation and claims in the air by various news sites.
> I don't want to do that, let's discuss it when we see what it actually says.
> 
> PM Netanyahu and opposition leader Gantz, went to Washington to meet Pres.Trump.
> ...




*1/28/20



“Hamas ordered *

 *all businesses closed by 13:00 (hours)
[to demonstrate wider demonstrations]. . . “*







​
*3/25/20*:


Do you know? did they ‘order’ more closings not because they want to demonstrate more “widely - but because of the – _You know_ - 

 the Chinese virus that’s wrecking havoc all over the world…..








*Back! Stay back!*


----------



## P F Tinmore (Apr 23, 2020)

*Mehdi Hasan: Trump’s Middle East Plan Is a Policy of Apartheid & Settler Colonialism

*


----------



## Hollie (Apr 23, 2020)




----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Apr 23, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> *Mehdi Hasan: Trump’s Middle East Plan Is a Policy of Apartheid & Settler Colonialism
> 
> *



*Mehdi Hasan: Trump’s Middle East Plan Is a Policy of Apartheid & Settler Colonialism*

That's outrageous!!!

Only Arabs are allowed to practice Apartheid & Settler Colonialism.


----------



## rylah (May 10, 2020)

Good read:

*Warning: Ambassador Friedman’s Vision for Contiguous Palestinian State Will Become Joe Biden’s Policy*









						Warning: Ambassador Friedman’s Vision for Contiguous Palestinian State Will Become Joe Biden’s Policy
					

Last week, Israel Hayom published a teaser of its weekend interview with US Ambassador David Friedman, on the second anniversary of President Trump's decision to move the US embassy from Tel Aviv to J




					www.jewishpress.com


----------



## rylah (May 20, 2020)




----------



## P F Tinmore (May 28, 2020)




----------



## Toddsterpatriot (May 28, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


>



That's what happens when you don't make peace.


----------



## Hollie (May 29, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


>


Failed policies of Arab-Moslem settler colonists stealing Israeli land implies there are negative consequences for the Arabs-Moslems.


----------



## rylah (Jun 8, 2020)

*Report: Saudi Arabia and Israel Conduct US-Mediated Negotiations - Incorporating Saudi Representatives into Islamic Waqf Council on Temple Mount*

Alongside the 'Century Deal' drafted by US President Donald Trump, and the plan to apply Israeli law in the Jordan Valley including major communities in Judea and Samaria, US-mediated contacts between Israel and Saudi Arabia have been underway since December last year to integrate Saudi representatives into the Islamic Waqf Council on the Temple Mount, as reported by "Israel today".

Senior Saudi diplomats quoted in the paper confirmed to the publication that "these are sensitive and covert contacts that have been conducted in ambiguity and low intensity by a limited team of senior diplomats and security officials from Israel, the US and Saudi Arabia as part of the contacts to advance the Century Deal".

According to the diplomat, a few months ago, the Jordanians - who have a special and exclusive status in managing the Islamic Waqf on the Temple Mount - strongly opposed any change in the Islamic Waqf Council's composition on the Temple Mount, but the change in Amman's stance came as a result of intense Turkish involvement in East Jerusalem in general and on the Temple Mount. .

Israel National News


----------



## rylah (Jun 9, 2020)

*Netanyahu: The Palestinians have to concede, not Israel*

*On the magnitude of achieving US recognition of Israeli sovereignty in Judea and Samaria, Prime Minister Neyanyahu says, "Only if the Palestinians consent to complete Israeli security control everywhere, they can have their own entity that Trump defines as a state."*

Full interview:* https://www.israelhayom.com/2020/05/28/netanyahu-the-palestinians-have-to-concede-not-israel/*


----------



## rylah (Jun 10, 2020)

*PA submits counter-proposal to 'Deal of the Century'*

_*PA Prime Minister says he submitted peace plan to the Quartet calling for demilitarized Arab state in almost all of Judea and Samaria.*_

The Palestinian Authority has submitted a counter-proposal in response to the Trump Administration's peace plan, _AFP_ reported.

"We submitted a counter-proposal to the Quartet a few days ago," PA Prime Minister Mohammed Shtayyeh said.

The Quartet is made up of the US, the UN, the EU. and Russia.

Shtayyeh said the proposal calls for the creation of a "sovereign Palestinian state, independent and demilitarized" with "minor modifications of borders where necessary."

US President Donald Trump presented his peace plan, dubbed the 'Deal of the Century,' in January. The plan allows Israel to maintain control over all Jewish communities in Judea and Samaria and the Jordan Valley. Under the plan, a Palestinian Arab State would be created in the rest of Judea and Samaria and Gaza, with a significant amount of land from southern Israel joined to Gaza to compensate for the land Israel would retain in Judea and Samaria. The PA would also receive $50 billion in economic assistance.














						Report: PA submits counter-proposal to 'Deal of the Century'
					

PA Prime Minister says he submitted peace plan to the Quartet calling for demilitarized Arab state in almost all of Judea and Samaria.




					www.israelnationalnews.com


----------



## ESay (Jun 10, 2020)

rylah said:


> *PA submits counter-proposal to 'Deal of the Century'*
> 
> _*PA Prime Minister says he submitted peace plan to the Quartet calling for demilitarized Arab state in almost all of Judea and Samaria.*_
> 
> ...


It looks somewhat like a trap. It seems that the word 'demilitarized' will be the main point which they will try to be seemed as a main concession. What does it mean? Absence of regular army and nothing more? In this case it means nothing. If it means being under Israel security parcel, then it may be a valid point. 

Especially hilarious seems the demand about territorial exchanges and the desire to get the money. In this case, the money for what?


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## rylah (Jun 10, 2020)

ESay said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > *PA submits counter-proposal to 'Deal of the Century'*
> ...



A trap, more like an open proposition to capitulation,
and they're not in the position to propose that, if anything.

When they say 'demilitarized' its effectively saying  Israel's defense position in the center of the country is a 14km strip of beach, with nothing but Jordan and another new Sharia hole to the east. They have no military to begin with, so how is this a concession?

A half million Jews live in Judea, they don't mention them...

They want all for nothing, can offer nothing except chaos,
and everyone understands what happens soon after Abbas.


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 14, 2020)

*'Steal Of The Century': Trump's Palestine-Israel Catastrophe 

*


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## rylah (Jun 14, 2020)

*What do Palestinian Arabs really think of Israeli sovereignty?*

_*Arab affairs commentator Zvi Yehezkeli speaks with PA Arabs about sovereignty - and finds they prefer Netanyahu to Abbas.*_


Zvi Yehezkeli, the Arab affairs commentator for _Channel 13,_ was interested to hear what Judea and Samaria Arabs think about the intention to apply sovereignty over parts of Judea and Samaria.

Sometimes, because of fear of the PA, those with whom Yehezkeli speaks tell the camera something different than what they actually think. This time, therefore, he decided to document the conversations with hidden camera glasses.

Speaking with the PA Arab population regarding their feelings about Israeli sovereignty, Yehezkeli finds that people would prefer Israeli rule to PA rule.

"Everyone is for [sovereignty]," says one interviewee, adding that all his friends think like him, too.

Yehezkeli asks another who would win, between "Bibi [Netanyahu]" and "Abu Mazen [Abbas]," if elections were held today in PA-controlled areas.

"Bibi," was the blunt response.

Another says he "wants the entire village to be happy, because today they're under the PA, but they want Netanyahu - nobody else. They want an Israeli ID." He adds that "One hundred, two hundred percent" feel this way.

"We're ready to live under the military boots of the army rather than under the head of Abu Mazen," another says.

"What has the PA done for us?" another asks. "I don't want a state. I want money. Money is preferable to a state. The entire Palestinian people wants this. What does it want? It doesn't want the PA. The PA robbed us and destroyed us."

A PA policeman notes, "In Israel there's law and order. Life is good. In the PA [...] they steal from us and give us only a little. All the money goes to Abu Mazen, to the PA, to those leaders. The people eat s**t. I prefer Israeli sovereignty, a hundred percent - not just me. I have 60 workers, and we're all together. We all have _protexia. _If you don't have protexia, you have nothing."

"Abu Mazen called to go and demonstrate over the Deal of the Century, nobody listened to him. 'Why don't you and your children go demonstrate?'"

Yehezkeli concludes that there is a "huge gap between the PA and the people which, after 25 years, understands that Palestinian sovereignty really did not make their lives better."

"The question is what we will hear in another month - the voices of PA leaders, or the voice of the people that thinks entirely differently?"















						What do Palestinian Arabs really think of Israeli sovereignty?
					

Arab affairs commentator Zvi Yehezkeli speaks with PA Arabs about sovereignty - and finds they prefer Netanyahu to Abbas.




					www.israelnationalnews.com


----------



## rylah (Jun 16, 2020)

*Report: Trump peace plan could leave Jewish heritage sites under Palestinian control*

_*New report claims Trump Middle East peace plan would place heritage sites across Judea and Samaria in a Palestinian state.*_


Hundreds of heritage and archaeological sites in Judea and Samaria could be removed from Israeli control and transferred to the Palestinian Authority’s jurisdiction, according to the map released in conjunction with US President Trump’s “Deal of the Century,” Israeli daily _Yediot Ahronot_ revealed Tuesday morning.

The full list of endangered sites, which was presented to Knesset Speaker Yariv Levin (Likud) and other influential officials, will be discussed today in the context of the Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee hearing scheduled to begin at noon. The hearing, initiated by MKs Shlomo Karai, Matan Kahane and Moshe Arbel, will examine the steps taken by the Israeli government to combat the Palestinian takeover of Area C (the portion of Judea and Samaria placed under full Israeli jurisdiction under the Oslo Accords).

There are some 6,000 sites of historical and archaeological importance in Judea and Samaria that are recognized by the scientific community, but only 2,300 or so have been officially declared protected archaeological sites.

Following the roll-out of the “Peace to Prosperity” plan, “Preserving the Eternal,” a project dedicated to the preservation of the archaeological treasures scattered throughout Judea and Samaria, conducted an emergency survey for the Shiloh Policy Forum, of 365 major antiquities sites that bear particularly important physical testimony to Israel’s national heritage.

Of the 365 sites surveyed for this project, 258 are located in what is currently Area C.

According to the conceptual maps released with the Trump Plan, some 30% of these sites will be part of the future Palestinian state: 135 heritage sites currently under Israeli control will be reassigned to Palestinian jurisdiction. Notable among these are the Hasmonean Fortress at Horkania in the northern Judean Desert, the Hasmonean Fortress at Kypros in the Jordan Valley, the Hasmonean palaces near Jericho, the biblical city of Shomron (Samaria-Sebastia), the altar of Joshua on Mount Ebal, Tel Beitar, Tel Maon, Tel Hebron, among others.

Currently, the overwhelming majority of antiquities sites in Judea and Samaria suffer from constant vandalism and looting, with a sorely understaffed and underfunded department of the Civilian Administration responsible for law enforcement and prevention measures. To make matters worse, the Palestinian Authority has recently stepped up its activities in this area, dedicating tremendous effort and resources to re-writing and re-defining the history of these sites, turning them into "Palestinian heritage sites" and erasing or obscuring Jewish history, while curtailing access to the sites for Israeli tourists, archaeologists and other visitors.

These efforts are in full swing in such illustrative cases as Sebastia, the capital city of the biblical Jewish Kingdom of Samaria, and in the Hasmonean fortress of Tel Aromah near Peduel.

There is good reason for concern that these trends will be exacerbated, causing further erasure of history and the physical record of the Jewish connection to the Land of Israel in the archeology sites that Israel is slated to abandon.

"Unfortunately, in the last 20 years, the State of Israel has not maintained its heritage sites," says Etan Melet, Field Coordinator for the Preserving the Eternal Project. "Priceless archaeological sites have been neglected by the government and have been relegated to a very disrespectful place in the list of national priorities. 4,000 years of history should be given far more respect. We demand that decision makers give their full attention to our national heritage sites and take whatever steps are necessary to maintain them, even if it requires resources or adjusting the here and there. "

Meir Deutsch, Director General of the Regavim Movement, adds: "The Oslo Accords’ stipulations on preservation of and access to these world heritage treasures have failed completely. The coordination mechanism never got off the ground, and antiquities sites have been subjected to incessant looting that has damaged them to the point that in many cases there is nothing left for archaeologists to examine or document, not to mention preserve. Many more sites are on the verge of being lost forever to the scientific community, and other major sites have been targeted by the PA's for takeover and “repurposing” as "Palestinian heritage sites."





Copyright: *Tel Hebron* -  Preserving the Eternal 









						Report: Trump peace plan could leave Jewish heritage sites under Palestinian control
					

New report claims Trump Middle East peace plan would place heritage sites across Judea and Samaria in a Palestinian state.




					www.israelnationalnews.com


----------



## rylah (Jun 16, 2020)

*Samaria leader: Sovereignty maps look like disengagement 2*

_*Samaria Regional Council chairman Yossi Dagan warns current sovereignty maps would endanger residents, lead to missiles on Tel Aviv*_


Samaria Regional Council chairman Yossi Dagan criticized Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu over the sovereignty maps Tuesday evening.

"The truth must be stated. If Netanyahu draws a lap and leaves out Elon Moreh - he is actually giving up Elon Moreh. When it comes to the 19 isolated settlements - it looks like a second Disengagement," Dagan said,

Dagan referred to communities such as Itamar, Elon Moreh, Yitzhar, Har Bracha, Mevo Dotan, and Harmish, which he said are isolated enclaves under the sovereignty maps. According to information obtained by the heads of the municipal councils, 19 communities will be isolated in the area of the Palestinian Authority after sovereignty has been applied and the de facto boundary will be in the middle of the communities in some cases.

According to Dagan, the creation of the enclaves will endanger residents' lives and reduce the State of Israel's ability to defend itself, since many of the communities sit on the highlands and mountains overlooking the coastal plain where the majority of Israel's population lives.

"It's not just that it's a second Disengagement," Dagan said. "It will also bring the results of the second Disengagement. Missiles on Tel Aviv, instead of the south, combined with the inability to defend the borders. This kind of plan is irresponsible, and I expect the prime minister to reject it utterly and not to allow any harm to the State's most vital interests."

The Samaria Regional Council has campaigned against the details of the plan to apply sovereignty in 30% of Judea and Samaria in recent weeks, claiming that the plan would leave communities isolated and vulnerable and lead to the creation of a terrorist state in the heart of Israel.

Dagan stated that "sovereignty can be applied even without the support of the American government.* Trump might condemn it, but he won't act to harm the State of Israel because he is a friend of Israel and friends should realize that there can sometimes be disagreements,* especially when he is six months ahead of elections and his base is the Evangelicals who love Israel. The truth must be told: If Netanyahu draws a lap and leaves out Elon Moreh - he is actually giving up Elon Moreh. When it comes to the 19 isolated settlements - it looks like a Disengagement 2."














						Samaria leader: Sovereignty maps look like disengagement 2
					

Samaria Regional Council chairman Yossi Dagan warns current sovereignty maps would endanger residents, lead to missiles on Tel Aviv




					www.israelnationalnews.com


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## rylah (Jul 1, 2020)

*Sovereignty Day is here - but talks between Israel and the US continue on sovereignty plan*

_*What will Israel's sovereignty plan look like - and when will it be implemented? Questions abound as deadline for sovereignty plan passes.*_


Wednesday marks the first day Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu can introduce his sovereignty plan, according to the coalition deal with the Blue and White party, yet questions remain when Netanyahu will release the plan – and how much of Judea and Samaria the plan will cover.

Netanyahu and his associates have kept details of the sovereignty plan – which would apply Israeli law over parts of Judea and Samaria under the framework of the Trump administration’s Middle East peace plan – tightly under wraps, as talks with the US continue.

On Wednesday, Foreign Minister Gabi Ashkenazi (Blue and White) told _Galei Tzahal _he believes it is "unlikely something would happen today."

Ashkenazi added, however, that he doesn't "know if there will be a statement today on the application of sovereignty. That is a question you have to ask Prime Minister Netanyahu."

Likud Minister Ze’ev Elkin Wednesday morning said ‘intensive’ deliberations with US on details of sovereignty plan. Elkain emphasized that US support is critical for the plan, noting that the coalition agreement which permits sovereignty plan to be pursued from July 1st onwards conditions permission for the plan on US approval.

Unconfirmed reports citing senior Israeli, American, and Palestinian Authority officials have suggested a number of widely varying scenarios, ranging from the possibility that Israel will only apply sovereignty to several large settlement blocs, dropping plans to include the Jordan Valley – to a report by _Channel 11_ Tuesday night which suggests Israel is negotiating with the US to include more fledging Israeli settlements in the map, in exchange for waving sovereignty over other areas.

According to the maps released in the _Channel 11_ report, which purport to show the US and Israeli sovereignty plans, both versions of the sovereignty plan would see Israel applying its law to roughly 30% of Judea and Samaria.

Under the Israeli plan, however, Israel would ‘trade’ some areas allotted to it under the US version of the plan, in exchange for more territory in sensitive areas between large Palestinian Authority population centers and Israeli towns earmarked to become isolated enclaves.

The Israeli plan would expand the areas surrounding the enclaves which would be placed under Israeli sovereignty, and would apply sovereignty to about 20 of the 25 fledgling towns and outposts which were excluded from the original American plan.

In exchange, Israel would not extend sovereignty over an equivalent area in the Judean Desert.

Other reports claim the US team is pushing to reduce the amount of territory to be included under the plan. President Trump’s son-in-law and senior adviser, Jared Kushner, is reportedly opposed to Israel maximizing the territory to be placed under Israeli law.

According to a report by _Channel 12_ Tuesday night, US officials are pressuring Israel to make concessions to the Palestinian Authority in exchange for US recognition. Specifically, the US is pushing Israel to transfer land from Area C, which is under full Israeli control, to Area B, which is under Israeli security control, but PA civil control.

Netanyahu met on Tuesday with US Ambassador David Friedman and special Middle East envoy Avi Berkowitz. Following the meeting, *the Prime Minister said*, "I spoke with American Envoy Avi Berkowitz and Ambassador David Friedman on the issue of sovereignty. This is a matter which we are working on and which we will continue to work on in the coming days.”













						Sovereignty Day is here - but talks between Israel and the US continue on sovereignty plan
					

What will Israel's sovereignty plan look like - and when will it be implemented? Questions abound as deadline for sovereignty plan passes.




					www.israelnationalnews.com


----------



## rylah (Jul 1, 2020)

*Report: US pushing Israel to make gesture to PA*

_*US administration reportedly pressing Israel to make a significant gesture towards the Palestinian Authority in exchange for sovereignty.*_

The US administration is pressing Israel to make a significant gesture towards the Palestinian Authority in exchange for Israel applying sovereignty over Judea and Samaria, _Channel 12 News_ reported on Tuesday.

According to the report, US officials have proposed that Israel give land in exchange for land, in a manner that would allow Palestinian Arabs to build without restrictions or change the status of Area C (where Israel maintains security and civilian control) to that of Area B.

A government official said on Tuesday that "if the right knew what the Americans wanted in exchange for annexation, they would be less enthusiastic."

While sovereignty over Judea and Samaria can officially be applied on Wednesday as stipulated in the coalition agreement between Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu and Defense Minister Benny Gantz, it is unclear if the move will indeed take place on Wednesday.

Netanyahu met on Tuesday with US Ambassador David Friedman and special Middle East envoy Avi Berkowitz. Following the meeting, the Prime Minister said, "I spoke with American Envoy Avi Berkowitz and Ambassador David Friedman on the issue of sovereignty. This is a matter which we are working on and which we will continue to work on in the coming days.”

On Monday, Netanyahu hinted to members of the Likud that the application of sovereignty over Judea and Samaria would not be implemented on July 1, explaining that it would be a complex move which requires many political and security considerations.









						Report: US pushing Israel to make gesture to PA
					

US administration reportedly pressing Israel to make a significant gesture towards the Palestinian Authority in exchange for sovereignty.




					www.israelnationalnews.com


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## rylah (Jul 1, 2020)

*MK Avi Dichter: Time to apply sovereignty - even without green light from US*

*Likud MK and former security chief Avi Dichter urges Netanyahu to move forward with sovereignty plan - even if deal not yet reached with US.*

Likud MK and former chief of the Shin Bet internal security agency Avi Dichter urged Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu to move forward with plans to apply sovereignty over parts of Judea and Samaria – even if an agreement has not yet been reached with the Trump administration over the precise boundaries of the sovereignty plan.

Speaking with _Reshet Bet_ radio on Wednesday, MK Dichter said the time had come to extend Israeli law over Israeli communities in Judea and Samaria.

“There is absolutely no reason why half a million Israelis who are living there should be treated any differently, as if things are still up in the air [regarding their status], just because the land they’re living on still is not under Israeli sovereignty.”

When asked whether Israel should wait until receiving a green light from the White House before moving forward with the sovereignty plan, Dichter said Israel should move forward immediately.

“If the State of Israel had needed to wait, it would not have been established. There have been other things in the past Israel did without waiting. The time has come for [sovereignty] in Judea and Samaria.”

Today marks the first day, under the Israeli government’s coalition agreement, that Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu can pursue his yet-to-be released sovereignty plan.

Details of the timing and dimensions of the plan remain closely guarded, fueling speculation regarding when and over what areas Israel will apply sovereignty over.













						MK Avi Dichter: Time to apply sovereignty - even without green light from US
					

Likud MK and former security chief Avi Dichter urges Netanyahu to move forward with sovereignty plan - even if deal not yet reached with US.




					www.israelnationalnews.com


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## ESay (Jul 1, 2020)

Making any significant concessions to the Arabs isn't a good idea. In any case, the Israel sovereignity won't be recognized by a significant number of countries, it will be strongly condemned by Muslim countries, and maybe some radical groups will declare jihad. So, why to get all this for say 20 acres, if you can get the same for 100 acres? 

Something tells me that the US are inching toward recognition of Arab Palestinian state.


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## toomuchtime_ (Jul 1, 2020)

ESay said:


> Making any significant concessions to the Arabs isn't a good idea. In any case, the Israel sovereignity won't be recognized by a significant number of countries, it will be strongly condemned by Muslim countries, and maybe some radical groups will declare jihad. So, why to get all this for say 20 acres, if you can get the same for 100 acres?
> 
> Something tells me that the US are inching toward recognition of Arab Palestinian state.


lol  Whatever it is that's telling you that is lying.  There is virtually no support for a Palestinian state among Trump supporters and even the Democrats are divided on the issue.


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## ESay (Jul 1, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


> ESay said:
> 
> 
> > Making any significant concessions to the Arabs isn't a good idea. In any case, the Israel sovereignity won't be recognized by a significant number of countries, it will be strongly condemned by Muslim countries, and maybe some radical groups will declare jihad. So, why to get all this for say 20 acres, if you can get the same for 100 acres?
> ...


Maybe. In this case the US should support the Israeli sovereignity over as wide territory as possible. And as soon as possible. 

Also, in this case I don't see any reason of Trump's peace deal. In order to get the deal working, the US should get an agreement from PA. I don't see any reason why the PA should endorse this agreement without their independence.


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## toomuchtime_ (Jul 1, 2020)

ESay said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > ESay said:
> ...


The PA is irrelevant.  It has consistently refused to negotiate with Israel of any two state deal since 2000, and at this point is not competent to promise peace in exchange for any deal, nonetheless, Trump's plan explicitly says it will not support annexation if the PA were to come to the table and negotiate in good faith, and the PA has refused.  

The land defined by the Trump plan comprises about 50% of area C, which is about 30% of Judea and Samaria, which some call the West Bank.  It is only sparsely populated by Arabs and has significant strategic value to Israel.  The US and Israel are negotiating now over minor adjustments Israel wants to make to the border specified in the Trump plan.  There is already broad US-Israel agreement on annexation and once these details are worked out there will be announcements by both Trump and Netanyahu.


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## rylah (Jul 1, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


> ESay said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...



Whatever moves to the positive is good.
However agreement to a Pali state, makes many prefer to refuse the plan.

We can apply sovereignty without any plan or agreement.

Just sayin',
no one is gonna give up on a single hill, 
even if Trump or Netanyahu agree on otherwise.


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## rylah (Jul 1, 2020)

*New Neighborhood in Har Bracha "Instead of Sovereignty We Got a Holding Off"*

*Samaria Council : Netanyahu was supposed to declare sovereignty from here. MK Shaked: If the prime minister wants, he can apply sovereignty without freezing construction.*

Former Justice Minister Ayelet Shaked (Yeminah) and Knesset Member Haim Katz (Likud) took part in Wednesday's ceremony to lay a cornerstone for a new neighborhood in Har Bracha in Samaria.

Shaked called on Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to apply sovereignty without freezing construction in localities and without recognizing a Palestinian state. "We know he can," she said.






"In spite of the attempts by Blue and White and the Palestinians to sabotage the course, I sincerely hope the move is successful," Shaked added. "Today we are on July 1st, it will remember today the opening of great freedom and not today the application of sovereignty unfortunately. There is another month to make this move. "

Knesset Member Haim Katz (Likud) said at the ceremony, "We are here laying a cornerstone to make Mount Greeting a city and mother in Israel with tens of thousands of residents. Ayelet said about sovereignty, whether they want it or not, by the end of it we will build and settle the Land of Israel on all its parts and for that we came here today. ''

Samaria Council President Yossi Dagan said at the ceremony that the new neighborhood will be named after Rabbi Itamar Ben Gal, who was murdered in a stabbing attack in Samaria. " On July 1, from here, quickly proclaim sovereignty over all settlement, Bible sites, and expanses in Judea and Samaria.

'' In practice, instead of gaining sovereignty, we get a smattering of time. When Menachem Begin decided that he was applying sovereignty over the Golan, he applied it one day. He wasn't waiting for maps from Washington. "

"We are here to make a clear statement, we are residents of Samaria, residents of Judea and Benjamin, and our people with Israel, Likud voters, and the entire national camp. For the past year in three election campaigns and to apply full sovereignty.








			https://www.inn.co.il/News/News.aspx/442085


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## toomuchtime_ (Jul 1, 2020)

rylah said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > ESay said:
> ...


I fail to understand why so many Israelis continue to worry about Trump's plan leading to a Palestinian state.  The conditions for US recognition of a Palestinian state laid out in Trump's plan would be impossible for  the Palestinians to meet, so US recognition of a Palestinian state is impossible under the plan.  

As I understand Trump's plan, it doesn't require Israel to give up any land or settlements, but it does exclude some outlying settlements from this annexation and bind Israel not to annex anymore land for two years in order to allow the PA to decide to come to the table, but if they don't, then there are no restrictions on further annexations after two years.  I believe the present negotiations are about Israel's desire to exclude some of the land in the dessert that Trump included in his plan in order to include more land around some of the settlements without increasing the total amount of land annexed.

After eight years of Obama, I can see why some Israelis would be suspicious of the US, but I also think some Israeli leaders have not done their homework in learning about what is in the plan.


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## Indeependent (Jul 1, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...


Why not ask Jordan why they pay Israel to keep the West Bank Arab out of Jordan?
Why not ask Egypt why they pay Israel to keep the Gazans out of Egypt?
Do you see a pattern here?


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## rylah (Jul 1, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...



People are traumatized by mere suggestion.

If the US supports Israel's application of sovereignty - bless You!
If that support is conditioned by a binding resolution to abandon any claims - forget it.

Our people, will never abandon a single grain anymore,
whatever anyone signs and in whatever forum.

Period.


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## toomuchtime_ (Jul 1, 2020)

rylah said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


Of course there is no rational basis for believing Israel will have to give anything up, to gain US recognition of the annexation.  On the other hand, much of the support in Israel for annexation is based on  the belief that the US will recognize the annexed land as part of Israel and if the US were not prepared to do that there would probably not be enough support among Israelis to allow annexation to go forward.  US recognition of the annexation is critical to the process going forward, and crazy talk about UN resolutions or giving up land claims does nothing to protect Israel's interests.


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## rylah (Jul 1, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...



Luckily I'm not a politician,
I'm ready to eat rice and give half of my home to Jewish refugees. - if that's what it takes for Israel to do the right thing. If our grandparents could live on coupon rations with tents,
we can overcome that too - I'll sign my own boycott than  give up a grain of soil belonging to the entirety of the Jewish people, in each generation and place, back then and now.

Not to mention,
whoever tried never ended well.


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## toomuchtime_ (Jul 1, 2020)

rylah said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


But of course all of this is irrelevant since the US has not asked Israel to give up anything in order yo gain US recognition of the annexed land.


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## rylah (Jul 1, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...



When I see that, I'll sing Nagilah Haleluyah,
in the meantime...I don't like the talks so much.

I hear a lot of convincing that there's no agreement to a Pali state,
instead of applying sovereignty in Judea.

Why convince me?
You know why folks get _"rotten Arafat...beh meh...I'm going to build the next hill"?_
...and if they want they can stick the Israeli flag with me...
...or better even bring one yourself...kinda attitude.


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## toomuchtime_ (Jul 1, 2020)

rylah said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


Obviously, I can't convince you, but I am surprised that someone so interested in annexation has not bothered to read the document that is the basis for it.


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## ESay (Jul 2, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


> ESay said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...


It isn't the first time I have heard about non-relevance of the PA. Then what is a reason of this so called peace plan at all? An agreement means taking part of at least two sides, doesn't it? If the PA is irrelevant, then agree with Israel to annex as much as they wish and can and recognize the situation on the ground. 

Btw, I have read a version that the US administration wants to put the situation on hold until the November's election.


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## toomuchtime_ (Jul 2, 2020)

ESay said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > ESay said:
> ...


The plan calls for negotiations between Israel and the PA with the starting point the proposed annexation of half of area C, but the PA has refused to even discuss negotiations, annexation of half of area C will proceed without negotiations.  In order to gain US recognition of the annexed land, Israel has to agree not to annex any more land for two years to give the PA a second chance to enter negotiations.  Area C has been under Israeli control since 1967 and there is no way Israel is ever going to give up any of it, so the effect of the Plan is to change the de facto sovereignty Israel has been exercising over half of area C since 1967 into de jure sovereignty.  Not really as big a deal as when you call it annexation. 

President Trump recognized that since there was no political entity among the Palestinians that could credibly offer peace to Israel,a negotiated two state solution was never going to happen, and that meant the status quo would go on for the foreseeable future, so he devised a plan to try to bring about changes that would benefit both sides that was based on facts on the ground rather than unattainable dreams.  

The PA loses nothing by the annexation since this was land the PA was never going to get anyway, but if they had chosen to negotiate on the basis of Trump's plan, annexation would have been put on hold during negotiations and be subject to any agreement the two sides made, but since the PA has refused any participation at all, it is irrelevant to the process.  

The Israelis themselves are divided over how much land to annex, and while the majority support annexing the land specified in the Trump plan, a sizable minority is opposed to annexing any, so how much land the Israelis want to annex depends on which Israelis you ask.  

Trump supporters are very enthusiastic Israel supporters and are very enthusiastic about annexation, so Trump will benefit politically by having the annexation take place before the election.


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## rylah (Jul 2, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


> crazy talk about UN resolutions or giving up land claims does nothing to protect Israel's interests.



And yet that UN Security Resolution is suggested in the plan.

They had an autonomy,
now we're talking about entering negotiations about a state.

How many times was the Pali state mentioned?

You see the mere talks about even an option of a state,
is encouraging further terror, and endangering the people of Israel.

And why should we freeze any construction if we're not going to establish one?
They won't, at best, if they had brains, they'll drag time to get money  but keep exactly that.

I should freeze, while they keep building,
so that we can negotiate what they never had?

With the starting point at Shchem, Hebron, Bethlehem under Arab control??


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## ESay (Jul 2, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


> ESay said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...


Thanks for such a wide answer. I understand your point. But try to understand mine. 

It is clear that the PA won't accept anything too short from the boundaries as of 1967 with the capital in East Jerusalem. They will demand their own state. Thinking that the PA will retreat from any of these claims contradicts the basic logic, because this will basically mean the end of the PA. 

But here the red lines for Israel arise, because they won't accept the independent Palestinian state in any form, to say nothing about the boundaries and capital.

So, to sum this up, the peace plan was going to fail from the very beginning. And I cant believe that the authors didnt understand this. 

No, not annexation can undermine the Trumps approval rating, but possible violence which can get started after Israel takes the steps.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Jul 2, 2020)

rylah said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > crazy talk about UN resolutions or giving up land claims does nothing to protect Israel's interests.
> ...


The conditions laid out for a possible Palestinian state are impossible to meet, so there is no possibility of a Palestinians state.



The Palestinians shall have implemented a governing system with a constitution or another system for establishing the rule of law that provides for freedom of press, free and fair elections, respect for human rights for its citizens, protections for religious freedom and for religious minorities to observe their faith, uniform and fair enforcement of law and contractual rights, due process under law, and an independent judiciary with appropriate legal consequences and punishment established for violations of the law.
The Palestinians shall have established transparent, independent, and credit-worthy financial institutions capable of engaging in international market transactions in the same manner as financial institutions of western democracies with appropriate governance to prevent corruption and ensure the proper use of such funds, and a legal system to protect investments and to address market-based commercial expectations. The State of Palestine should meet the independent objective criteria to join the International Monetary Fund.
The Palestinians shall have ended all programs, including school curricula and textbooks, that serve to incite or promote hatred or antagonism towards its neighbors, or which compensate or incentivize criminal or violent activity.
The Palestinians shall have achieved civilian and law enforcement control over all of its territory and demilitarized its population.
The Palestinians shall have complied with all the other terms and conditions of this Vision.









						Trump peace plan - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




No matter how pessimistic you may be no one can imagine the Palestinians meeting all these conditions.


The SC resolution would provide international recognition of Israel's sovereignty over the newly annexed land.  This would be important since it would make it very difficult for some European countries to take punitive actions against Israel for teh annexation or even to criticize it, but the resolution would probably fail for exactly those reasons.

Everything encourages more threats and terrorism from the Palestinians.

The building freeze was a bad idea and the US has already dropped it.  

Land not included in this annexation is not given to the Palestinians by the plan.  Many issues will remain to be dealt with in the future.  The only concession Israel has to make to secure US recognition of its sovereignty over the newly annexed land, is to not annex more land for four years, not two years as I had previously stated.  It is not everything you had hoped for, but taking a hard look at Israeli politics, it is a lot more than would have been possible without Trump's support.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Jul 2, 2020)

ESay said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > ESay said:
> ...


The basic problem with a Palestinian state is that there is no political entity among the Palestinians that can credibly offer peace to Israel so it would be insanity for Israel to agree to a Palestinian state regardless of the boundaries.  Until the Palestinians have a government that can credibly offer peace to Israel, a negotiated two state solution is not possible, and any honest look at the state of government and politics among the Palestinians will show you that such a government will not be possible for the foreseeable future.  

A peace plan has to be negotiated by parties that can credibly offer peace, so these are the conditions the Trump Plan laid down for US recognition of a Palestinians state:



The Palestinians shall have implemented a governing system with a constitution or another system for establishing the rule of law that provides for freedom of press, free and fair elections, respect for human rights for its citizens, protections for religious freedom and for religious minorities to observe their faith, uniform and fair enforcement of law and contractual rights, due process under law, and an independent judiciary with appropriate legal consequences and punishment established for violations of the law.
The Palestinians shall have established transparent, independent, and credit-worthy financial institutions capable of engaging in international market transactions in the same manner as financial institutions of western democracies with appropriate governance to prevent corruption and ensure the proper use of such funds, and a legal system to protect investments and to address market-based commercial expectations. The State of Palestine should meet the independent objective criteria to join the International Monetary Fund.
The Palestinians shall have ended all programs, including school curricula and textbooks, that serve to incite or promote hatred or antagonism towards its neighbors, or which compensate or incentivize criminal or violent activity.
The Palestinians shall have achieved civilian and law enforcement control over all of its territory and demilitarized its population.
The Palestinians shall have complied with all the other terms and conditions of this Vision.









						Trump peace plan - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




There are realistic conditions for a government that can credibly offer peace to Israel, but clearly, they are not achievable by the PA, so the prospect of an independent Palestinian state is effectively dead regardless of what the EU or UN or leftists in the US or Israel say.  

The Palestinian leaderships never ended the second intifada.  The fence along the green line and actions of Israeli security forces throughout Judea and Samaria simply made it too difficult to carry out large scale terrorist attacks, so that now Israel has effectively secured peace with the Palestinians through it own actions.  That means the question of whether or not the Trump plan will establish peace is moot since peace has already been established on the ground.

Trump supporters are eager to see annexation go forward and if there is an uptick of terrorist attacks from the Palestinians, they will see it as proof that the Palestinians can't be trusted to have an independent state.


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## rylah (Jul 3, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


> ESay said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...



Look that would help our conversation if you realize 2 things:

1. Application of sovereignty in Judea wasn't a suggestion born in the US or Trump admin.,
it was already a central topic of the previous election campaigns.

2. I've read 'the vision', but there's also experience.
Conditions and liabilities usually evaporate the day after agreements,
and what is left are the obligations to pressure Israel, and new facts on the ground for Arabs.

That's why the closer we get to actually applying sovereignty,
the more we start hearing about hesitation and US requests for 'gestures'.

In no way do I suggest taking Trump's voters' support for granted, I'm sincerely grateful,
but they also have to understand, and I'm sure hearing Evangelical Christians clearly say,
that application of Israeli sovereignty is natural development based on an existing right,
outside any framework of US admin. decision or say - to support and back up is one,
to suggest introduce restrictions on top of it is another.

Application of Israeli sovereignty is function of Israel's independent sovereign decision,
and Trump's plan is a framework of a negotiation, for which some expect a construction freeze.

I understand the touchy subject of elections, but try to understand that PM Netanyahu was not elected with the promise to enter negotiations and feed false dreams to the enemy,
rather to move on with the application of sovereignty.

We didn't vote on the condition of US support,
and neither for building freeze.

Arabs refused, we should move on, forever,
maybe we can play the role to support Trump until elections,
but that's about it, and important that Judeans state that truth clearly.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 3, 2020)

Trump's Steal of the Century.

They will never get that pig to fly.


----------



## MartyNYC (Jul 3, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


> ESay said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...



There really is no palestinian people. When Egypt seized Gaza in the ‘48 War and Jordan seized what was internationally known as Judea and Samaria, ancient Jewish names, neither country created a palestinian state. Nor, were there calls for a state from any palestinians. No such people existed. Jordan even renamed Judea and Samaria only as west bank, of the Jordan River, not as Palestine. Palestine and palestinian are made-up European names originally associated with Jews. Arabs began using those names in the 1960s. They‘re bogus.


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## toomuchtime_ (Jul 3, 2020)

rylah said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > ESay said:
> ...


First, while sovereignty has been a passionate topic of discussion for a long time, especially around election time, nothing has been annexed since 1980 and annexation of any part of Judea or Samaria would not be imminent if not for Trump.  

Second, when you talk about Israelis, you say "we" but there is even now a significant minority of Israelis who opposed annexation of any part of Judea and Samaria,  and without the expectation of US recognition of the annexation, that minority would probably swell to a majority.  While sovereignty over all of Judea and Samaria may be a done deal in the minds of the people you talk to, clearly it is not for most Israelis.  I understand that you believe sovereignty over all of Judea and Samaria is only being held up because of objections from Washington, but that is not true, most Israelis do not support it.

The objections you raise to the "deal" are frivolous.  

The mere mention of a Palestinian state in the plan will endanger Israel.

Nonsense, a Palestinian state, the two state solution, is mentioned favorable thousands of times a day all over the world, including by some Jews in Israel, and when it is mentioned in the plan, it is mentioned only in terms of the PA meeting a set of conditions it cannot possibly meet in the foreseeable future.  So it redefines a Palestinian state in terms that are beneficial to Israel.  

Everything can change, but if the US were to some day stop supporting this deal as written, then Israel would be under no obligation to stand by it, either.  When things change, you adapt to the changes, but cowering in fear of change is nearly always counter productive.  

There are no gestures.  These are just unsubstantiated rumors spread by people who oppose annexation for their  own reasons.

You say you have read the plan, but take a step back from it and see the broader strokes.  It erases the Green Line and it changes the discussion of a Palestinian state from whether the Palestinians have a right to one to what would be their responsibilities before be able to claim that right.  There simply is no downside for Israel in the Plan.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Jul 3, 2020)

MartyNYC said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > ESay said:
> ...


During the Mandate, everyone who lived in the Mandate area west of the river was called a Palestinian since the area was called Palestine.  But when the state of Israel was established, those who lived inside of Israel were called Israelis and those who lived outside of Israel were still called Palestinians.  

Somehow the geographical designation of Palestinian morphed into the quasi nationalist, ethnic term, Palestinian.  So now Arabs who have not lived in the area for generations called themselves Palestinians and Saudis and Egyptians who moved there more recently are also called Palestinians.  The UN trying to show the world they did not support colonialism, enshrine this later use of the term in a number of resolutions, failing to see how absurd it was for a globalist organization to embrace a made up nationalist movement.  

Because it embarrasses me as an American to talk about how presidents Clinton, Bush and Obama contributed to this farce, I will stop here.


----------



## MartyNYC (Jul 3, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


> MartyNYC said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...



Arabs and Muslims in the British Mandate generally rejected the names palestine and its derivative palestinian as Western inventions devised by the British in collusion with Jews. They historically viewed the country in its entirety as Syria or Sham in Arabic. The Jews pressed the British to cut off the southern part of Syria in order to implement the Balfour Declaration and reestablish a Jewish home.


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## Shusha (Jul 3, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


> ... it changes the discussion of a Palestinian state from whether the Palestinians have a right to one to what would be their responsibilities before be able to claim that right.



Yeah.  This is the conversation that we should be having.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 3, 2020)




----------



## MartyNYC (Jul 3, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


>



Palestine = Israel


----------



## Shusha (Jul 3, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


>




Wow.  She is losing her touch.  Reduced to aimless wandering in the wilderness of non-coherent argument.


----------



## MartyNYC (Jul 4, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


>



Palestine was a pagan Roman name for ancient Israel. It’s Latin in origin, not Arabic. Are you a pagan Roman?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jul 4, 2020)




----------



## rylah (Jul 5, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


>



Well they gotta protest about something,
at least let it be about something worthwhile.

And I'm optimistic we'll provide more good news
for the folks to have their opportunity to get that craze out.


----------



## MartyNYC (Jul 5, 2020)

Saudi commentator says they have warming relations with Israel and sentiment is against “palestinians”: “They have contributed nothing.”


Saudi Writer Abdulhameed Al-Ghobain: Saudis Care About National Interests, Not About The Palestinian Cause; Our Relations With Israel Are Warm, Have Gone Beyond Normalization


----------



## rylah (Jul 6, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


> First, while sovereignty has been a passionate topic of discussion for a long time, especially around election time, nothing has been annexed since 1980 and annexation of any part of Judea or Samaria would not be imminent if not for Trump.



First, the Trump admin. formulated the socio-economic projects,
and included it as leverage in a wider geopolitical approach.

But essentially it's Naftali Bennet's plan,
and the geopolitical aspect of the plan regarding the Israeli-Arab alliance,
is the hard work establishing new relations allover all continents of PM Netanyahu .



toomuchtime_ said:


> Second, when you talk about Israelis, you say "we" but there is even now a significant minority of Israelis who opposed annexation of any part of Judea and Samaria,  and without the expectation of US recognition of the annexation, that minority would probably swell to a majority.  While sovereignty over all of Judea and Samaria may be a done deal in the minds of the people you talk to, clearly it is not for most Israelis.  I understand that you believe sovereignty over all of Judea and Samaria is only being held up because of objections from Washington, but that is not true, most Israelis do not support it.



Second, there's no such significant minority aside from the Arab Joint List,
I'm quiet sure You won't surprise me with any of the new polls
that I haven't seen getting published now.

In matter of fact, it is a wide consensus on all political spectrum of the Israeli left and right,
that cities like Ma'ale Edumim, 'Ariel, Upper Modi'in, Beitar etc. which have become significant economic centers to be included in any plan, which is what we see being the focus of the currently discussed outline.

As well as Jordan valley, it is a no-discussion position, national position, that regardless of any formal status of bilateral or international agreement, it remains under Israeli control exclusively, as the minimal defensive geographical boundary in the country, this is ours.

Listen, it's like with the British Empire, they chose to side with the Zionist movement,
but only after we have already started building outside Jerusalem walls, built several new significant towns, infrastructure and networks of local coordination for investments, as well
as allocating great efforts, energy and time in the political promotion.

And here too, the base of the plan is in the Israeli political discourse, those who shifted it during and after the Oslo disaster were the Judeans themselves, they, Sovereignty Movement's Women in Green, Yesha Council, the young Party of Yeminah, Betzalel Smotrich, Tzipi Hotovely etc. these are the people representing the young generation which established the facts on the ground, the facts in the Israeli political discourse, and went to Washington never being afraid to both oppose our PM's and Your Presidents.

But beyond mere political level, there's also natural development in the environment. The Gush Dan area of Tel-Aviv, the central economic metropolitan area in Israel, joining several large cities together is located right to the west of Judea, a 10-20 minute ride to to the east, and already being overpopulated in comparison to the rest of the country. In Judea, which large portion of residents comprise of immigrants from America, the cost of living is times more affordable, for the price of an old 3 room apartment in Tel-Aviv, Herzliyah or Rishon L'Zion, one can get a modern small private house with a garden, with open nature, in one of the most fast growing and developing areas in the country, with a mostly young community and a family focused environment to grow Your kids.

The Israeli CBS shows that in a single generation every 3rd Israeli is an orthodox Jews. And B"H that the Israeli birth-rates have already evened and a bit surpassed the birth-rates of several major Arab nations, a trend that has been constant in the larger Arab world, especially with the countries focused on modernization.

It's really not what they show in the news, to say the least.
And the middle east is not anymore what people are used to think.

But I get it,
when taking leadership, great leaders tend to take credit for the work of other's,
and totally ok, if translates better to the base of support - as long as work is actually done.




toomuchtime_ said:


> The objections you raise to the "deal" are frivolous.
> 
> The mere mention of a Palestinian state in the plan will endanger Israel.
> 
> Nonsense, a Palestinian state, the two state solution, is mentioned favorable thousands of times a day all over the world, including by some Jews in Israel, and when it is mentioned in the plan, it is mentioned only in terms of the PA meeting a set of conditions it cannot possibly meet in the foreseeable future.  So it redefines a Palestinian state in terms that are beneficial to Israel.



Yes, definitely - the mention of Pali state translates directly into justification for further violence.

Ahi, excuse me,
but frivolous is the manner in which You tend to disregard any my objections.
But it's going to be me to live with the consequence, and also having past experience.

And excuse me for making such a frivolous comparison, but You know, that African Americans are using the N-word doesn't justify regulating it into an agreement or law, neither justice.

Now, the N-word is merely a word, if empowered in public discourse will indirectly lead to fatal consequences, while the Pali states o.t.o.h. are actual power bases of suicide dealers.

Kinda like if You folks wait another year and a half until CHAZ arms up,
and the US admin signs with them a formal agreement.

Would that lead to less violence, or encourage it?



toomuchtime_ said:


> Everything can change, but if the US were to some day stop supporting this deal as written, then Israel would be under no obligation to stand by it, either.  When things change, you adapt to the changes, but cowering in fear of change is nearly always counter productive.



The US is not side to the agreement, but according to the plan will take part in signing the agreement into international law, which will as far as I understand bound it constitutionally as it did with the Mandate terms.

It will have the status of international law in force of the Israeli sovereign decision to follow on the recognition of PLO, but regardless of US formal position.

And in case followed in such trajectory - a needless mistake.



toomuchtime_ said:


> There are no gestures.  These are just unsubstantiated rumors spread by people who oppose annexation for their  own reasons.
> 
> You say you have read the plan, but take a step back from it and see the broader strokes.  It erases the Green Line and it changes the discussion of a Palestinian state from whether the Palestinians have a right to one to what would be their responsibilities before be able to claim that right.  There simply is no downside for Israel in the Plan.


You know how exactly?
Why does construction have to freeze?
To wait for them to enter negotiations?

There's nothing their representatives have to offer or negotiate.
Nada.

Our focus is with the local population and gradual replacement of the PA autonomy rule with complete Israeli sovereignty, with the path to citizenship once the demographics naturally enforce the development and change the country outline with its economic centers.

Westerners and Arabs are used to think Israelis are in constant hurry,
but facts show the opposite, the time is on our side.

_*'Shwayah shwayah*_' as our Arab cousins say.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Jul 6, 2020)

rylah said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > First, while sovereignty has been a passionate topic of discussion for a long time, especially around election time, nothing has been annexed since 1980 and annexation of any part of Judea or Samaria would not be imminent if not for Trump.
> ...


Bennett has talked about several plans, but hasn't been able to make anything happen.  Trump is making annexation happen.  

*More Israelis oppose West Bank annexation than support it — survey*









						More Israelis oppose West Bank annexation than support it — survey
					

Poll by dovish Geneva Initiative contradicts findings from another recent study, which saw a plurality of Israelis back the move




					www.timesofisrael.com
				




A Palestinian state is mentioned favorably thousands fo times a day all over the world including in Israel, and it is mentioned without obligating the Palestinians to do anything in order to get it.  The Trump plan only mentions a possible Palestinian state in terms of the extensive reforms the Palestinians would have to make to deserve a state.  I know you are able to understand the difference but you are committed to applying Israeli sovereignty over all of Judea and Samaria, but there is very little support for that among the greater public.  Even Bennett only proposed annexing area C.  

The Plan will not become international law, just as Oslo never became international law.  The US will seek to have the UN Security Council pass a resolution supporting it, but it will almost certainly fail since both the Europeans and Arabs will oppose it.  

"Settlement Minister says government won't back Palestinian statehood. 'We won't freeze construction or create isolated enclaves.' "









						'Israel working to reach a deal with US on sovereignty plan'
					

Settlement Minister says government won't back Palestinian statehood. 'We won't freeze construction or create isolated enclaves.'




					www.israelnationalnews.com
				




Rylah, there are no monsters under the bed.


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## rylah (Jul 6, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...



Will it be President Trump to police the towns, or build a house there?
Did Pres. Trump initiate it and create the base of support, or PM Netanyahu?

It's not "my dad your dad" kindergarten talk, neither a chicken and egg dilemma,
more a question of simple common sense - recognizing the constant and the interval.

PM Netanyahu governed during how many US presidents?
Wanna remind us what he inherited from Clinton?

We as a nation have our own job to do, if it aligns with the current American politics, how blessed, and sell it however You find fit as long as obstructions are not introduced.

If not...well You know us Israelis.
We rely on ourselves, and the Judeans on the ground,
who now sit both in the coalition and the opposition said the same,
and in the typical Israeli manner - 'to the face' when in WH with PM Netanyahu.

Accept it or not, but they didn't lie - lines are irrelevant.
Kids gonna keep building the Judean hills, and turn them into vibrant towns.


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## toomuchtime_ (Jul 6, 2020)

rylah said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


Netanyahu has been a brilliant leader but the fact remains that for forty years nothing was annexed and now shortly after President Trump supports annexation, half of area C is about to be annexed.  There is no rational basis for denying that annexation is only taking place now because President Trump supports it.


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## rylah (Jul 23, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...


The fact remains state of Israel NEVER annexed anything.

Liberated? Yes
Unified? Yes
Applied sovereignty? Yes

Read the actual bills of Eshkol, Begin and Shamir, the specific law that was used, was and order that passed with the creation of the state, that calls on the government, to apply _"the law, jurisdiction and state administration in all the territory of Eretz-Yisrael that the government established in order". _There's not a single law in Israel that talks about 'annexation', and it's not in our national interests to sign into any agreements formulated in these terms.


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## rylah (Jul 23, 2020)

*Janson Greenblat to IDF Radio: "Applying sovereignty must come with a commitment to allocate territory to a Palestinian state."*



			https://glz.co.il/גלצ/תוכניות/בוקר-טוב-ישראל/בוקר-טוב-ישראל23-07-2020-0601/גייסון-גרינבלט-ריבונות-צריכה-לבוא-עם-התחייבות-לשטח-למדינה-פלסטינית
		


(Comment)

So basically all the hot air about "they have to negotiate"
and supporting Israeli sovereignty,
was just that - hot air.

The Judean youth, the Sovereignty Movement,
Yesha Council and David Alhiyani - were correct.

Don't wanna support it then don't,
PM Begin z"l applied sovereignty in the Golan,
and PM Eshkol z"l unified Jerusalem *despite American disagreement.*

Why do we need these conditions?


----------



## rylah (Jul 23, 2020)

*Getting on the anti-sovereignty bandwagon*

_*Along with the EU, Britain betrays the Jewish People again by opposing sovereignty. Then the US makes applying it suicidal.*_

Britain – the architect of the San Remo Resolution and Treaty of Sevres in 1920 that led to the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine in 1922 – has once again shamefully betrayed the Jewish People by warning Israel not to extend its sovereignty into Judea and Samaria.

Britain’s Prime Minister Boris Johnson has told Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that any such action would be in violation of international law - which Netanyahu disputes – despite the Mandate vesting in the Jewish People the right to “close settlement” in Judea and Samaria for the purposes of reconstituting the biblical Jewish National Home in what had been the heartland of the Jewish People 3000 years ago.

Britain had betrayed the Jewish People in 1950 after all the Jews living in Judea and Samaria had been ethnically cleansed by the invading Arab army of Transjordan in 1948. Britain – supported only by Pakistan and Iraq - recognised Transjordan’s illegal annexation of Judea and Samaria, the renaming of the newly merged entity as “Jordan” whilst “Judea and Samaria” was renamed “West Bank”.

Johnson told Netanyahu:

"I am immensely proud of the UK’s contribution to the birth of Israel with the 1917 Balfour Declaration. But it will remain unfinished business until there is a solution which provides justice and lasting peace for both Israelis and Palestinians.

"The only way it can be achieved is for both sides to return to the negotiating table. That must be our goal. Annexation would only take us further away from it."

Peace for both “Israelis” and “Palestinians”? Neither existed until 1948 and 1964.. There were only “Arabs” and “Jews” in 1917. The Arab residents of Palestine then comprised part of “the existing non-Jewish communities”.

Johnson seems apparently unaware that the “Palestinians”:

were defined for the first time in recorded history by article 6 of the 1964 PLO Charter
did not claim “regional sovereignty in the West Bank in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan” or “on the Gaza Strip” under article 24
were Jordanian citizens between 1954 and 1988.
Johnson’s warning to Israel is the complete antithesis of what he wrote on 29 October 2017 as Foreign Minister – ahead of the Balfour Declaration centenary on 2 November:

“I have no doubt that the only viable solution to the conflict resembles the one first set down on paper by another Briton, Lord Peel, in the report of the Royal Commission on Palestine in 1937, and that is the vision of two states for two peoples.”

The Royal Commission was authorized by Royal Warrant dated 7 August 1936 which did not mention the “Palestinians” - only naming two parties – the “Arabs” and the “Jews” – not three - as disputants.







Read full article: 









						Getting on the anti-sovereignty bandwagon
					

Along with the EU, Britain betrays the Jewish People again by opposing sovereignty. Then the US makes applying it suicidal. Op-ed.




					www.israelnationalnews.com


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## toomuchtime_ (Jul 23, 2020)

rylah said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > rylah said:
> ...


I understand the difference, but the result is the same.  Annexation suggests the land was not part of Israel to begin with but applying sovereignty suggests Israel had always had a legitimate claim to the land.  Perhaps an important point in the propaganda wars but the result is the same and no one's opinion of the legitimacy of the process will change because of the wording.


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## rylah (Jul 23, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...



No agreement using this formulation should ever be signed,
it's a matter of correct legal definition, or as usually called "small letters".

We don't need that, it's against our interests.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 3, 2020)




----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 3, 2020)

Part 2


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## ESay (Aug 13, 2020)

Didn't want to open a new thread about this, so decided to post here this information. 

Israel and UAE agreed on full normalization of relations. This was said in a trilateral statement of Israel, UAE and the US leaders. The delegations of two countries are supposed to meet soon for signing agreements regarding various fields, including security and direct flights.

According to the statement, Israel should postpone the plans of applying sovereignty to some West Bank territories, and will focus on developing ties with other Arab and Muslim countries. 

The link (on Russian)








						Израиль и ОАЭ договорились о полной нормализации отношений
					

Подробнее на сайте




					www.kommersant.ru
				




Well, cooperation of Israel and UAE is a long awaited thing for both countries, I think. And it can pave a way to normalization with some other Arab countries and formation of a security alliance with Israel and the Gulf monarchies to counter Iran. It seems that Israel will take a step back to go forward afterwards.


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## rylah (Aug 13, 2020)

ESay said:


> Didn't want to open a new thread about this, so decided to post here this information.
> 
> Israel and UAE agreed on full normalization of relations. This was said in a trilateral statement of Israel, UAE and the US leaders. The delegations of two countries are supposed to meet soon for signing agreements regarding various fields, including security and direct flights.
> 
> ...



Baruch HaShem!
Great news!

People have been saying this all the time, the deal of Trump's admin was really about relations in the Gulf.

There's  also the "Growing Arab support for Israel" thread, where I've shared insights on less reported developments in these relations during the last 2 years. They've opened a HUGE shul in Dubai, the only one in the Gulf, and Israelis have been reporting on the opening of the skies for Israeli airlines, and how they were accommodated as tourists in Saudi Arabia... reports about special Kosher arrangements, our newest music getting popular there etc.

This is in Sa'udia last year:

This is UAE a month or two ago:

But a peace agreement definitely deserves a thread of its own.


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## ESay (Aug 14, 2020)

rylah said:


> But a peace agreement definitely deserves a thread of its own


Yes, but that is only a first step. Decades have been need to take it. Though, I think that the pace will be much quicker in the coming years. Anyway, the UAE is only one chain. The ultimate goal is an alliance between Israel and the Gulf monarchies and as a result of it resolving the Palestinian issue.

Not surprisingly, Turkey condemned this agreement. 








						Турция назвала лицемерием решение ОАЭ пойти на соглашение с Израилем
					

Подробнее на сайте




					www.kommersant.ru
				




Turkey will be a natural rival of the possible alliance. Along with Iran. It is time for the Kurds to get some international support for their self-identification


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## Mindful (Aug 14, 2020)

*Leftists Denounce Peace Deal Between Israel and the UAE*
By
David Lange
 - 
August 13, 2020
250
I am sure you’ve already heard the news: Israel and the United Arab Emirates reached a historic agreement today to set up full diplomatic relations between the two countries.
You’d think those on the Left would welcome a peace treaty, right?

Just kidding – I am sure you all know better than that.
They hate it.
Here are some of the reactions:
Rashida Tlaib.




Rashida Tlaib

@RashidaTlaib
We won’t be fooled by another Trump/Netanyahu deal. We won't celebrate Netanyahu for not stealing land he already controls in exchange for a sweetheart business deal. The heart of the issue has never been planned, formal annexation, but ongoing, devastating apartheid.


Read more:


History Series


----------



## rylah (Aug 14, 2020)

ESay said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > But a peace agreement definitely deserves a thread of its own
> ...



Yes Turkey, Iran two big players in the ME,
and not so fond of each other to say lightly.

I've been saying this for years Arab-Israeli relations are not subject to Pali status,
it's the other way around, Arabs will solve it, because politically Palis are suicidal,
and the problems they fuel, the civil wars, the joining Iran against the entire
Sunni world - they're way too much mess for none contribution.

Those folks go on Egyptian TV demanding "a million martyr march to Jerusalem",
while having Iranian and Qatari flags on the billboards.
And even Qatar is giving signs of "had enough".

The deal was a ladder to climb off that tree,
and Palis still believing in the value of their narcissism - missed the main show.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 14, 2020)

Mindful said:


> *Leftists Denounce Peace Deal Between Israel and the UAE*
> By
> David Lange
> -
> ...


BTW, Rashida Tlaib won her reelection with 66% of the vote.

Of course those crazy Zionists and rightwingnuts don't like her.


----------



## rylah (Aug 14, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> > *Leftists Denounce Peace Deal Between Israel and the UAE*
> ...


What does this have to do with the thread?
There's an actual topic, it's not Tlaib's election campaign.

Neither about your hasty generalizations of
Right-wing Zionists and Left-wing Zionists.


If you don't have anything on topic - get lost.


----------



## Mindful (Aug 14, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> Of course those crazy Zionists and rightwingnuts don't like her.



Inflammatory  and beside the point.

You’re getting yourself noticed.


----------



## RoccoR (Aug 14, 2020)

RE: Israel's Lies 
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

*BLUF*: Like or dislike is irrelevant. The solution is a matter of sound and valid logic based on evidence. Like some mathematical equations, there is more than one correct answer.



P F Tinmore said:


> Of course those crazy Zionists and rightwingnuts don't like her.





Mindful said:


> Inflammatory  and beside the point.
> You’re getting yourself noticed.


*(COMMENT)*

When you add the component of emotion, greed or politics → the condition of sufficient reason _(Principle of Sufficient Reason) _is damaged or destroyed.  



Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 14, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> BTW, Rashida Tlaib won her reelection with 66% of the vote.



Maybe she should move to Palestine and run for office?


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Aug 14, 2020)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > BTW, Rashida Tlaib won her reelection with 66% of the vote.
> ...


In what century will the Palestinians hold their next election.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 14, 2020)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Any day now. A week after they defeat the Jews.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 14, 2020)

rylah said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Mindful said:
> ...


Mindful brought up Rashida Tlaib. I was merely responding to her post.


----------



## ESay (Aug 14, 2020)

rylah said:


> Those folks go on Egyptian TV demanding "a million martyr march to Jerusalem",
> while having Iranian and Qatari flags on the billboards.
> And even Qatar is giving signs of "had


I dont particularly get Qatar's stance about some Middle East issues. Especially their relations with Iran which led to harsh measures from Saudi Arabia.

Yes, I understand that the wealth of Qatari ruling family raised their ambitions and they want political influence. But they should understand that overall Qatar doesn't have financial and military might to be a major player in the region. Maybe they were disappointed by SA, but in their possible alliance with Iran or Turkey they will play only a second role.

I think that Qatar returning to cooperation with the Gulf monarchies will be a breaking point.


----------



## Mindful (Aug 14, 2020)




----------



## Mindful (Aug 15, 2020)

After news came out about the Israel-UAE peace deal, my immediate thought was “I have to speak to my UAE-based friend Thani to get his take.”

So I did.





__





						WATCH: A Jew and a Muslim Discuss the Israel-UAE Peace Deal
					

After news came out about the Israel-UAE peace deal, my immediate thought was "I have to speak to my UAE-based friend Thani to get his take." So I did.




					www.israellycool.com


----------



## Mindful (Aug 16, 2020)

Lebanese President Michel Aoun dropped a bombshell statement on Saturday night, telling French TV his country may be ready for peace with Israel.

Asked in an exclusive interview with France’s BFM television whether Lebanon was ready to make peace with Israel, he responded: “That depends. We have problems with Israel and we have to resolve them first.”

It was a shocking statement by a president whose rise has benefited from a more than decade-old alliance with Hezbollah, arguably the most powerful military force in the country.

Asked what he thought of the United Arab Emirates’ treaty concluded with Israel last Thursday, Aoun responded that the UAE “is an independent country.”

That suggested Aoun would not be held back from negotiations by any pan-Arab considerations.









						Lebanese President Michel Aoun Concedes Lebanon Open to Peace With Israel
					

Lebanese President Michel Aoun dropped a bombshell statement on Saturday night, telling French TV his country may be ready for peace with Israel.




					www.israellycool.com


----------



## rylah (Aug 16, 2020)

Mindful said:


> After news came out about the Israel-UAE peace deal, my immediate thought was “I have to speak to my UAE-based friend Thani to get his take.”
> 
> So I did.
> 
> ...



GREAT CONVERSATION!

Thank You...so inspiring, I'm actually thinking about opening a channel like that, as they've suggested,
to engage on a personal level with citizens of Arab countries.

Got this mental picture...can't wait to see these guys somewhere on the streets
and just meet  with a BIG smile...not pushing for more, no less.

Can't wait to embrace them, and show our Israeli warmth,
Just You know, smile, look in the eyes, shake hands, casually in the street, for no reason,
just plainly on a personal level, mere 25 seconds, that can resonate deeper and seal the relationship
more than 100 years of diplomacy. Might sound kitch in the West, but that's what the ME actually is...

these things are no less real than all the official entourage
we're personally much more simple than usually told - that's the language, people take such things close to heart, matters a lot despite typical western cynicism.

This is just one example...both folks connected as FATHERS...think about it.


----------



## Mindful (Aug 17, 2020)

Given Joe Biden’s role in the Obama administration’s decision to sign a nuclear deal with Iran, it should not be surprising that he would advocate reversing President Donald Trump’s decision to repudiate the agreement. Doing so, however, would compound the mistake Obama made — and worse, reward Iran’s misbehavior.
Let’s review some of the reasons the original agreement was a failure:

Iranian hostility toward the United States never abated.
Iran prevented “anywhere, anytime” inspections, making verification impossible.
Iran failed to disclose information about its prior nuclear activities.
Iran continued to pursue a bomb.
Biden has said he will negotiate a better deal, but that is what critics urged from the outset and were told could not be done. Instead, Obama signed a terrible deal because of his poor negotiating skills, naivete, weak bargaining position created by his unwillingness to use military force, and desperation to have a foreign policy accomplishment for his legacy.
Iranians have been out-bargaining people for centuries, so Obama had no chance of coming out ahead. Iran was willing to accept the short term pain of allowing inspections at non-military facilities (that is, the ones where they were most likely to engage in nuclear R&D) and limitations on enrichment (while being allowed to keep centrifuges now used to increase uranium purity) in exchange for the end of sanctions and a $150 billion payoff. Meanwhile, they could continue their covert nuclear operations and continue to threaten their neighbors, sponsor terror, and develop ballistic missiles. Obama’s naive belief that Iran would cease hostility toward the United States was as fantastical as his idea that Palestinians would agree to peace if he put the screws to Israel.









						Comparing Biden and Trump on Iran
					

Iranian Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei wears a protective face mask, during a virtual meeting with lawmakers, in Tehran, Iran, July …




					www.algemeiner.com


----------



## rylah (Aug 17, 2020)

Mindful said:


> Given Joe Biden’s role in the Obama administration’s decision to sign a nuclear deal with Iran, it should not be surprising that he would advocate reversing President Donald Trump’s decision to repudiate the agreement. Doing so, however, would compound the mistake Obama made — and worse, reward Iran’s misbehavior.
> Let’s review some of the reasons the original agreement was a failure:
> 
> Iranian hostility toward the United States never abated.
> ...



I'm more interested in Biden's view on Turkey,
another side of the deal kept out of discourse.

It would be *a* *much greater 'Deal of the Century' *if Kurds were included.
Again not naive with the expectation, but I think there's an opportunity we're missing.

If position towards Israel can shift, towards Kurds should as well.
I hope at least this apparent silence serves constructive means long term.


----------



## Mindful (Aug 17, 2020)

rylah said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> > Given Joe Biden’s role in the Obama administration’s decision to sign a nuclear deal with Iran, it should not be surprising that he would advocate reversing President Donald Trump’s decision to repudiate the agreement. Doing so, however, would compound the mistake Obama made — and worse, reward Iran’s misbehavior.
> ...



I dread the thought of Biden reversing the Iran issue.


----------



## rylah (Aug 17, 2020)

Mindful said:


> rylah said:
> 
> 
> > Mindful said:
> ...



Seems at this point everything is on the table.
Regardless election results. 

We should look beyond the next 4 years, a clearer trajectory.


----------



## rylah (Aug 17, 2020)

*Israel Hayom editor: We got peace and settlements*

*Boaz Bismuth, editor of Israel Hayom newspaper: The US administration said sovereignty is suspended, not cancelled.*

Boaz Bismuth, editor of the _Israel Hayom_ newspaper, spoke to _Arutz Sheva_ following the Abraham Accords between Israel and the United Arab Emirates.

Asked about those who argue that the agreement was not necessary since the UAE and Israel were not enemies to begin with, he replied, “Those who say that don’t really understand the region, the Middle East and the psychology of the Arab world. The psychological effect of this agreement is immense, and why? Because you do it openly and that is so important. Now, at last, you can be friends with a Jew in the Middle East.”

Bismuth also commented on the issue of sovereignty over Judea and Samaria, which Israel reportedly cancelled in exchange for the agreement with the UAE. Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu has stressed that sovereignty is still on the table.

“Suspend and cancel are two different words,” said Bismuth. “Suspend is for a limited amount of time. For me, you cannot cancel something which I would say is a process. It’s a historical process and I’m talking about applying Israeli law over Judea and Samaria and the Jordan Valley. This is something that will happen if not today, tomorrow, and if not tomorrow, then the day after tomorrow.”

“I would say that the biggest problem we had in applying the law is the fact that there was no consensus in the Israeli government. When you make a government with Blue and White and when your Minister of Defense and Minister of Foreign Affairs do not agree with that, it was very difficult for Prime Minister Netanyahu to apply Israeli law. But what did he give us instead? He gave us a peace treaty with the Emirates and probably with other countries soon, and second, we heard from Washington the word ‘suspend’. We did not hear the word ‘cancel’. So I would say let’s wait a little bit. I’m very optimistic.”

Asked what would happen if US President Donald Trump does not win the November election, Bismuth replied, “I wouldn’t dare say that Mr. Biden is anti-Israeli. I don’t think he is. [But] I would say we have a problem, especially with the Democratic party, with the places they are going, with some of the representatives they have today. The only thing I regret right now is that I don’t have an American passport, because if I had an American passport, this would be the easiest election ever.”

Bismuth acknowledged that “there is a danger that we will not have Trump winning in a landslide” but concluded, “Let’s be optimistic always. As Jews, we pray for peace. What did we get on Thursday? We got peace and settlements.”










						Israel Hayom editor: We got peace and settlements
					

Boaz Bismuth, editor of Israel Hayom newspaper: The US administration said sovereignty is suspended, not cancelled.




					www.israelnationalnews.com
				




(Comment)

'The Abraham Accords'...
I very much like how symbolically significant it sounds, biblical.


----------



## Mindful (Aug 19, 2020)

"It is stupid to burn my country's flag and want me to salute you." — Dr. Waseem Yousef, Emirati academic, on Twitter.
"When I see the flag of my country being burned by some Palestinians because of the peace treaty with Israel – I apologize to every Israeli man if I offended him in the past." — Dr. Waseem Yousef.
"Imagine that in just 17 years, Saudi Arabia paid [the Palestinians] $6 billion and the UAE $2.5 billion. This means that in 40 years, we are talking about no less than $20 billion. I expect that had we spent this money on Israel, its people would have converted to Islam." — From a UAE-affiliated account on Twitter.
The Palestinian leaders' strong condemnation of the UAE and other Arab states that support normalization with Israel has also driven many Arabs to raise the issue of financial corruption of the Palestinian leadership. Some Gulf citizens pointed out that the personal fortunes of Hamas leaders Ismail Haniyeh and Khaled Mashaal are worth at least $9 billion, while others claimed that Mahmoud Abbas's personal wealth is estimated at $200 million.






Scenes of Palestinians burning and trampling flags of the United Arab Emirates (UAE) and pictures of its de facto ruler, Crown Prince Mohammed Bin Zayed, have sparked a wave of protests in a number of Arab countries. Pictured: Palestinians in Ramallah burn pictures of Bin Zayed and Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, on August 15, 2020. (Photo by Abbas Momani/AFP via Getty Images)









						Arabs Are Fed Up With the 'Ungrateful' Palestinians
					

"It is stupid to burn my country's flag and want me to salute you." — Dr. Waseem Yousef, Emirati academic, on Twitter. "When I see the flag of my country being burned by some Palestinians because of the peace treaty with Israel – I apologize to every




					www.gatestoneinstitute.org


----------



## RoccoR (Aug 19, 2020)

RE:  Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground       
※→  Mindful, et al,

BLUF:  Now this is about Arab attitudes towards the Palestinians → Quite Interesting.




Mindful said:


> "It is stupid to burn my country's flag and want me to salute you." — Dr. Waseem Yousef, Emirati academic, on Twitter.
> "When I see the flag of my country being burned by some Palestinians because of the peace treaty with Israel – I apologize to every Israeli man if I offended him in the past." — Dr. Waseem Yousef.
> "Imagine that in just 17 years, Saudi Arabia paid [the Palestinians] $6 billion and the UAE $2.5 billion. This means that in 40 years, we are talking about no less than $20 billion. I expect that had we spent this money on Israel, its people would have converted to Islam." — From a UAE-affiliated account on Twitter.
> The Palestinian leaders' strong condemnation of the UAE and other Arab states that support normalization with Israel has also driven many Arabs to raise the issue of financial corruption of the Palestinian leadership. Some Gulf citizens pointed out that the personal fortunes of Hamas leaders Ismail Haniyeh and Khaled Mashaal are worth at least $9 billion, while others claimed that Mahmoud Abbas's personal wealth is estimated at $200 million



*(QUESTION)*

I wonder just how wide-spread this sentiment is in the Arab-world?




Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Mindful (Aug 23, 2020)

*Israel Fans*
22 hrs · 
Can you believe this?
The Palestinian Grand Mufti forbids Muslims who come via UAE to pray at Al-Aqsa Mosque only because of the peace agreement.
The Palestinian leadership would rather block Muslims from visiting a holy site just because their hate for Israel is greater than their love for peace. Shameful!




Hananya NaftaliLike Page
20 August at 17:23 · 
Can you believe this?
The Palestinian Grand Mufti forbids Muslims who come via UAE to pray at Al-Aqsa Mosque only because of the peace agreement.


----------



## rylah (Sep 1, 2020)

*UAE top official: "The normalization will continue even if Israel extends sovereignty in Judea Samaria*

_*Foreign Minister Chief of the Emirate surprised when clarifying that the agreement between the the states will remain intact also in case of "annexing territories in Judea and Samaria". MK Miki Zohar: "Have to apply sovereignty now"*_

A surprising message from Abu Dhabi: the chief of the Arab Emirate's foreign ministry, Jamal Musharh, addressed today (Tuesday) the normalization between the kingdom from the Persian gulf an Israel, and clarified that "normalization will continue even if Israel will extend its sovereignty in territories of Judea and Samaria.". With that he mentioned that "one of the pre-conditions for application of sovereignty was cease of annexation". The foreign ministry chief of the Emirates also added that he "received guarantees from leaders in Israel and USA", according to which the move wont go forth. Musharh claimed that normalization with Israel will benefit with the entire region, including Palestinians. "There's a place for innovation and education and future for the young  that they won't grow up in area of conflict", said and added: "too many conflicts in the region and time has come to impatiently look for a path that will stand and hope for future." In addition also confirmed the words of Prime Minister, Binyamin Netanyahu that sales of the F-35 jets is not to do with the connections with Israel, "It was in no way the motive, for the purchase of the F-35 is a legitimate and long-time request that we have. We see them as legitimate".

In response to the speech of Iran's leader, 'Ali Khaminaim, that normalization with Israel is "treason" and "the UAE will be forever humiliated", said Musharh that "the path to peace and prosperity is not in hate speech". As for the discussions about the normalization between the states, added that the rhythm of things moves in a "healthy" manner, but it difficult to conclude at this stage when the embassies will open or when the signing ceremony will take place in the US.














						בכיר באמירויות: "הנורמליזציה תימשך גם אם ישראל תרחיב את ריבונותה ביו"ש" | מעריב
					

מנכ"ל משרד החוץ של הנסיכות מהמפרץ הפתיע כאשר הבהיר כי ההסכם בין המדינות יישאר בתוקף גם במקרה של סיפוח שטחים ביהודה ושומרון. ח"כ זוהר: "צריך להחיל ריבונות עכשיו"



					www.maariv.co.il
				




(Comment)

_*"One of the pre-conditions for application of sovereignty was cease of annexation"*_

Wow, I'm really surprised how much they get it, to the point.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 1, 2020)




----------



## rylah (Sep 6, 2020)

Pay attention what happens once al-Ajrami realizes there's no more 'land-for-peace',
and that 'one state' is no longer a threat...


----------



## rylah (Sep 12, 2020)

That's an interesting one...









						PA Threatening to Leave the Arab League as UAE, Israel, Groom Mohammed Dahlan to Replace Abbas
					

And that may be the true benefit of the Abraham Accord, and why President Donald Trump who pushed for it may deserve the Nobel Peace prize for real.




					www.jewishpress.com


----------



## P F Tinmore (Sep 15, 2020)

*Israel? Palestine? Trump's Mideast peace plan explained | DW News*


----------



## rylah (Sep 15, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> *Israel? Palestine? Trump's Mideast peace plan explained | DW News*



Let me guess, "Orange man bad, Israel bad..."

German TV and Jihadi Hmar agree,  
why am I not surprised?


----------



## rylah (Sep 15, 2020)

*The Abraham Accords*

On the occasion of the signing of the historic agreement with the United Arab Emirates and Bahrain, the Mayor of Netanya, Miriam Feierberg-Icher, instructed to place flags of the State of Israel, the United States, the United Arab Emirates and Bahrain on the bridges throughout the city.


----------



## rylah (Sep 15, 2020)




----------



## rylah (Sep 16, 2020)




----------



## rylah (Sep 16, 2020)

*The signed Abraham Accords declaration*

The official signed declaration published by the White House:


----------



## rylah (Sep 16, 2020)

*Abraham Accords Peace Agreement: Treaty of Peace, Diplomatic Relations and Full Normalization Between the United Arab Emirates and the State of Israel*

The Government of the United Arab Emirates and the Government of the State of Israel (hereinafter, the “Parties”)

_Aspiring_ to realize the vision of a Middle East region that is stable, peaceful and prosperous, for the benefit of all States and peoples in the region;

_Desiring _to establish peace, diplomatic and friendly relations, co-operation and full normalization of ties between them and their peoples, in accordance with this Treaty, and to chart together a new path to unlock the vast potential of their countries and of the region;

_Reaffirming_ the “Joint Statement of the United States, the State of Israel, and the United Arab Emirates” (the “Abraham Accords”), dated 13 August 2020;

_Believing_ that the further development of friendly relations meets the interests of lasting peace in the Middle East and that challenges can only be effectively addressed by cooperation and not by conflict;

_Determined _to ensure lasting peace, stability, security and prosperity for both their States and to develop and enhance their dynamic and innovative economies;

_Reaffirming _their shared commitment to normalize relations and promote stability through diplomatic engagement, increased economic cooperation and other close coordination;

_Reaffirming _also their shared belief that the establishment of peace and full normalization between them can help transform the Middle East by spurring economic growth, enhancing technological innovation and forging closer people-to-people relations;

_Recognizing _that the Arab and Jewish peoples are descendants of a common ancestor, Abraham, and _inspired_, in that spirit, to foster in the Middle East a reality in which Muslims, Jews, Christians and peoples of all faiths, denominations, beliefs and nationalities live in, and are committed to, a spirit of coexistence, mutual understanding and mutual respect;

_Recalling _the reception held on January 28, 2020, at which President Trump presented his Vision for Peace, and _committing_ to continuing their efforts to achieve a just, comprehensive, realistic and enduring solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict;

Recalling the Treaties of Peace between the State of Israel and the Arab Republic of Egypt and between the State of Israel and the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, and committed to working together to realize a negotiated solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that meets the legitimate needs and aspirations of both peoples, and to advance comprehensive Middle East peace, stability and prosperity;

_Emphasizing _the belief that the normalization of Israeli and Emirati relations is in the interest of both peoples and contributes to the cause of peace in the Middle East and the world;

_Expressing _deep appreciation to the United States for its profound contribution to this historic achievement;

Have agreed as follows:

*Establishment of Peace, Diplomatic Relations and Normalization: *Peace, diplomatic relations and full normalization of bilateral ties are hereby established between the United Arab Emirates and the State of Israel.
*General Principles: *The Parties shall be guided in their relations by the provisions of the Charter of the United Nations and the principles of international law governing relations among States. In particular, they shall recognize and respect each other’s sovereignty and right to live in peace and security, develop friendly relations of cooperation between them and their peoples, and settle all disputes between them by peaceful means.
*Establishment of Embassies: *The Parties shall exchange resident ambassadors as soon as practicable after the signing of this Treaty, and shall conduct diplomatic and consular relations in accordance with the applicable rules of international law.
*Peace and Stability: *The Parties shall attach profound importance to mutual understanding, cooperation and coordination between them in the spheres of peace and stability, as a fundamental pillar of their relations and as a means for enhancing those spheres in the Middle East as a whole. They undertake to take the necessary steps to prevent any terrorist or hostile activities against each other on or from their respective territories, as well as deny any support for such activities abroad or allowing such support on or from their respective territories. Recognizing the new era of peace and friendly relations between them, as well as the centrality of stability to the well-being of their respective peoples and of the region, the Parties undertake to consider and discuss these matters regularly, and to conclude detailed agreements and arrangements on coordination and cooperation.
*Cooperation and Agreements in Other Spheres: *As an integral part of their commitment to peace, prosperity, diplomatic and friendly relations, cooperation and full normalization, the Parties shall work to advance the cause of peace, stability and prosperity throughout the Middle East, and to unlock the great potential of their countries and of the region. For such purposes, the Parties shall conclude bilateral agreements in the following spheres at the earliest practicable date, as well as in other spheres of mutual interest as may be agreed:- Finance and Investment- Civil Aviation- Visas and Consular Services- Innovation, Trade and Economic Relations– Healthcare– Science, Technology and Peaceful Uses of Outer-Space– Tourism, Culture and Sport
– Energy
– Environment
– Education
– Maritime Arrangements
– Telecommunications and Post
– Agriculture and Food Security
– Water
– Legal Cooperation
Any such agreements concluded before the entry into force of this Treaty shall enter into effect with the entry into force of this Treaty unless otherwise stipulated therein. Agreed principles for cooperation in specific spheres are annexed to this Treaty and form an integral part thereof.
*Mutual Understanding and Co-existence: *The Parties undertake to foster mutual understanding, respect, co-existence and a culture of peace between their societies in the spirit of their common ancestor, Abraham, and the new era of peace and friendly relations ushered in by this Treaty, including by cultivating people-to-people programs, interfaith dialogue and cultural, academic, youth, scientific, and other exchanges between their peoples. They shall conclude and implement the necessary visa and consular services agreements and arrangements so as to facilitate efficient and secure travel for their respective nationals to the territory of each other. The Parties shall work together to counter extremism, which promotes hatred and division, and terrorism and its justifications, including by preventing radicalization and recruitment and by combating incitement and discrimination. They shall work towards establishing a High-Level Joint Forum for Peace and Co-Existence dedicated to advancing these goals.
*Strategic Agenda for the Middle East: *Further to the Abraham Accords, the Parties stand ready to join with the United States to develop and launch a “Strategic Agenda for the Middle East” in order to expand regional diplomatic, trade, stability and other cooperation. They are committed to work together, and with the United States and others, as appropriate, in order to advance the cause of peace, stability and prosperity in the relations between them and for the Middle East as a whole, including by seeking to advance regional security and stability; pursue regional economic opportunities; promote a culture of peace across the region; and consider joint aid and development programs.
*Other Rights and Obligations: *This Treaty does not affect and shall not be interpreted as affecting, in any way, the rights and obligations of the Parties under the Charter of the United Nations. The Parties shall take all necessary measures for the application in their bilateral relations of the provisions of the multilateral conventions of which they are both parties, including the submission of appropriate notification to the depositaries of such conventions.
*Respect for Obligations:* The Parties undertake to fulfill in good faith their obligations under this Treaty, without regard to action or inaction of any other party and independently of any instrument inconsistent with this Treaty. For the purposes of this paragraph each Party represents to the other that in its opinion and interpretation there is no inconsistency between their existing treaty obligations and this Treaty. The Parties undertake not to enter into any obligation in conflict with this Treaty. Subject to Article 103 of the Charter of the United Nations, in the event of a conflict between the obligations of the Parties under the present Treaty and any of their other obligations, the obligations under this Treaty shall be binding and implemented. The Parties further undertake to adopt any legislation or other internal legal procedure necessary in order to implement this Treaty, and to repeal any national legislation or official publications inconsistent with this Treaty.
*Ratification and Entry into Force: *This Treaty shall be ratified by both Parties as soon as practicable in conformity with their respective national procedures and will enter into force following the exchange of instruments of ratification.
*Settlement of Disputes: *Disputes arising out of the application or interpretation of this Treaty shall be resolved by negotiation. Any such dispute which cannot be settled by negotiation may be referred to conciliation or arbitration subject to the agreement of the Parties.
*Registration: *This Treaty shall be transmitted to the Secretary-General of the United Nations for registration in accordance with the provisions of Article 102 of the Charter of the United Nations.
Done at Washington, DC, this day Elul 26th, 5780, Muharram 27th, 1442, which corresponds to 15 September 2020, in the Hebrew, Arabic and English languages, all texts being equally authentic. In case of divergence of interpretation, the English text shall prevail.

_For the State of Israel: H.E. Benjamin, Netanyahu, Prime Minister

For the United Arab Emirates: H.H. Abdullah bin Zayed Al Nahyan, Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Cooperation

Witnessed by: H.E. Donald J. Trump, President of the United States of America_


*ANNEX*

Pursuant to Article 5 of the Treaty of Peace, Diplomatic Relations and Full Normalization between the United Arab Emirates and the State of Israel, the Parties shall conclude bilateral agreements in spheres of mutual interest, in furtherance of which they have agreed to the following provisions. Such provisions are annexed to the Treaty and form an integral part thereof.* 

Finance and Investment *

Further to the Agreed Protocol signed between the Parties on September 1, 2020, in Abu Dhabi, the Parties shall cooperate to expeditiously deepen and broaden bilateral investment relations, and give high priority to concluding agreements in the sphere of finance and investment, recognizing the key role of these agreements in the economic development of the Parties and the Middle East as a whole. The Parties reaffirm their commitment to protecting investors, consumers, market integrity and financial stability, as well as maintaining all applicable regulatory standards. Recognizing also their shared goal to advance regional economic development and the flow of goods and services, the Parties shall endeavor to promote collaborations on strategic regional infrastructure projects and shall explore the establishment of a multilateral working group for the “Tracks for Regional Peace” project.

*Civil Aviation *

The Parties acknowledge the importance of ensuring regular direct flights between Israel and the United Arab Emirates, for passengers and cargo, as an essential means for developing and promoting their relations. They recognize as applicable to each other the rights, privileges and obligations provided for by the multilateral aviation agreements to which they are both a party, their annexes and any amendments thereof applicable to both Parties, particularly the 1944 Convention on International Civil Aviation, opened for signature at Chicago on the seventh day of December 1944, and the 1944 International Air Services Transit Agreement. Accordingly, the Parties shall as soon as practicable conclude all the necessary agreements and arrangements governing civil aviation, and consequently work towards establishing an international air corridor between their two States in accordance with international law. They shall also reach and implement the necessary agreements and arrangements with respect to visas and consular services to facilitate travel for the citizens of both States.

*Tourism*

The Parties affirm their mutual desire to promote tourism cooperation between them as a key component of economic development and of developing closer people-to-people and cultural ties. To this end, the Parties shall facilitate the exchange of information through advertisement spots, published and audiovisual promotional materials, and participation in tourist fairs. They shall also work together to promote joint tourism projects and packages between tourist operators so as to enhance tourism from third States. They shall work towards carrying out reciprocal study tours in order to increase knowledge in the development, management and marketing of heritage, cultural and rural tourism with a view to diversifying and deepening touristic links between them; and endeavor to utilize national marketing budgets to promote mutual tourism between the States.

*Innovation, Trade and Economic Relations*

The Parties shall enhance and expand their cooperation in innovation, trade and economic relations, so that the dividends of peace are felt across their societies. Recognizing that the principle of the free and unimpeded flow of goods and services should guide their relations, as well as the potential for diversification of bilateral trade opportunities, the Parties shall cooperate in order to enable favorable conditions for trade, and the reduction of trade barriers.* 

Science, Technology and Peaceful Uses of Outer-Space*

The Parties acknowledge the important role of science, technology and innovation in the growth of multiple key sectors and shall strengthen joint action and mutual cooperation in scientific and technological advancement. This shall include furthering scientific cooperation and exchange, including between scientists, research and academic institutions, pursuing the establishment of joint research and development centers, and exploring the possibility of joint funding of research and scientific projects in select fields of mutual interest.

The Parties further express their common interest in establishing and developing mutually beneficial cooperation in the field of exploration and use of outer space for peaceful purposes, in a manner consistent with each Party’s respective applicable national laws and international obligations. Such cooperation may include implementation of joint programs, projects and activities in the fields of science, space exploration, space related technologies and education, exchange of experts, information and best practices, and the promotion of cooperation between their respective space industries.

*Environment*

The Parties acknowledge the importance of protecting, preserving and improving the environment, and shall promote environmental innovation for the sustainable development of the region and beyond. The Parties shall endeavor to cooperate to develop environmental protection strategies on priority issues, including on biodiversity conservation, marine environment protection and climate change mitigation and adaptation, and on the possible establishment of a center for developing pioneering solutions to climate challenges in arid and semi-arid environments.

*Telecommunications and Post*

The Parties recognize the necessity of mutually beneficial cooperation for the continued development of telecommunications, information technologies and postal services. They take note of the establishment between them of direct communications services, including telephone lines, and agree to promote, in accordance with relevant international conventions and regulations, direct postal exchange, submarine cables and e-commerce solutions, as well as utilize available satellite systems, fiber optical communication, and broadcasting services. The Parties will strive to develop frameworks for innovation in ICT, including advanced fixed and wireless communications, collaboration on 5G networks, smart cities, and use of ICT solutions to foster innovation and the creation of best services.

*Healthcare*

The Parties welcome progress made in cooperation between them regarding the treatment of, and the development of a vaccine for, the Covid-19 virus, as a sign of the tremendous potential for cooperation between them in the healthcare sphere. Recognizing the importance of building ties in the fields of health and medicine, the Parties shall cooperate_, inter alia_, on: medical education, training and simulations, digital health and artificial intelligence innovation in the health sector, and emergency management and preparedness.

*Agriculture and Food Security*

The Parties recognize the great importance of sustainable agricultural development, recognizing its vital role in addressing food security concerns, as well as in the preservation of the environment. They shall cooperate to harness and maximize existing technologies, actively facilitate new collaborations, and share and develop knowledge, technologies and innovative approaches in the field of arid agriculture, irrigation technologies, mariculture techniques in shallow sea water, sustainable nutritious fish feed production, and seed enhancement in hot and humid climates.

*Water*

The Parties recognize the critical importance of sustainable water use and shall cooperate for their mutual benefit to address issues of water supply, water treatment and management, water security, efficiency, wastewater management and re-use, as well as water conservation and desalination.

*Energy*

The Parties take note of the strategic importance of the energy sector and in particular of their need to promote renewable energy, cooperation in the natural gas field, regional grids, alternative energy and energy security. They shall advance and develop mutual cooperation in energy projects, share best practices and discuss policies in energy forums that will help to promote and unlock the energy potential of the region, coordinating where appropriate with the International Renewable Energy Agency (IRENA), headquartered in Abu Dhabi.

*Maritime Arrangements*

Each Party shall recognize the right of vessels of the other Party to innocent passage through its territorial waters in accordance with international law. Each Party will grant normal access to its ports for vessels and cargoes of the other Party, as well as vessels and cargoes destined for or coming from the other Party. Such access shall be granted on the same terms as generally applicable to vessels and cargoes of other nations. The Parties shall conclude agreements and arrangements in maritime affairs, as may be required.

*Legal Cooperation*

Recognizing the importance of a supporting legal framework for the movement of people and goods and for fostering a continuous business friendly environment between them, the Parties shall make best efforts to grant each other the widest measure of legal cooperation, including, inter alia, in respect of mutual legal assistance in civil and commercial matters, in accordance with their national laws and shall endeavor to conclude specific agreements and arrangements in this sphere.










						Full Text of the Abraham Accords
					

The Abraham Accords Peace Agreement: Treaty of Peace, Diplomatic Relations and Full Normalization Between the United Arab Emirates and the State of Israel




					www.jewishpress.com


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## P F Tinmore (Oct 1, 2020)

*Salma Karmi-Ayyoub on 'Deal or Disaster of the Century' at Palestine Expo 2019*


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## Hollie (Oct 1, 2020)




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## Mindful (Oct 12, 2020)




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## P F Tinmore (Oct 16, 2020)

*Trump, Palestine, and the False Premise of "Economic Peace"*


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## rylah (Oct 17, 2020)

P F Tinmore said:


> *Trump, Palestine, and the False Premise of "Economic Peace"*



This presentation is clearly aimed at those who haven't read the thing.

And the response here very similar, from what I've seen among the Anglo-Palestinians lately,
even way too similar as in they were literally reading from the same list of talking points.

Beyond the shallow "brouchure" references aimed at those who haven't read a sentence and even more stupid lies about "no mention of Palestinian state" repeated nonsensically?
Did I mention for those who haven't read the thing...

These oligarch creambreads don't even have the guts or the intellect to address a single matter mentioned in the actual document presented...like ages ago.

What is this attention deficit?


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## rylah (Nov 2, 2020)

*Egypt's President welcomes Israel-Sudan normalization*

*Egyptian President Abdel Fattah Al-Sisi: I value all efforts aimed at establishing regional peace and stability.*

Egyptian President Abdel Fattah Al-Sisi on Friday welcomed the deal normalizing ties between Israel and Sudan.

“I welcome the joint efforts of the United States, Sudan and Israel to normalize relations between Sudan and Israel and I value all efforts aimed at establishing regional peace and stability,” Sisi said in a tweet.

Egypt became the first Arab country to sign a peace treaty with Israel in 1979 and was followed by Jordan, who did not sign a deal with Israel until 1994. Sudan on Friday became the third Arab country in the past two months to normalize ties with Israel, following the UAE and Bahrain.

US President Donald Trump announced the deal earlier on Friday during a call with Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu, Sovereign Council president General Abdel Fattah al-Burhan and civilian leader and Sudanese Prime Minister Abdalla Hamdok.

“The state of Israel and the Republic of Sudan have agreed to make peace. It’s peace in the Middle East without bloodshed,” he stated.













						Egypt's President welcomes Israel-Sudan normalization
					

Egyptian President Abdel Fattah Al-Sisi: I value all efforts aimed at establishing regional peace and stability.




					www.israelnationalnews.com


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## rylah (Nov 2, 2020)

*Sudanese Politician: We Have No Enmity towards Israel; We Need to Abandon the Islamist Ideologies*

He said that the priority is the interests of the Sudanese people, and he argued that it is the Islamist and pan-Arab leadership of the past that entangled Sudan in problems with Israel. He also said: “With all due respect to [the] Palestinian people, they are still better off than the people in rural Sudan.”


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## RoccoR (Nov 2, 2020)

RE:  Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the groundTrump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→ rylah, etal,

I think these types of new approaches to the ideology is rather AMASING>...



rylah said:


> *Sudanese Politician: We Have No Enmity towards Israel; We Need to Abandon the Islamist Ideologies*
> 
> He said that the priority is the interests of the Sudanese people, and he argued that it is the Islamist and pan-Arab leadership of the past that entangled Sudan in problems with Israel. He also said: “With all due respect to [the] Palestinian people, they are still better off than the people in rural Sudan.”


*(COMMENT)*

Yes, to the extent that he goes, there is a footprint of the "Islamist" pushing anti-Israeli sentiment.  But that is only one of several major excelerants in the generalized Arab-Israeli Conflicts of the past.




Most Respectfully,
R


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## rylah (Nov 2, 2020)

RoccoR said:


> RE:  Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the groundTrump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
> ⁜→ rylah, etal,
> 
> I think these types of new approaches to the ideology is rather AMASING>...
> ...


*Sudanese Researcher: Our Normalization with Israel Will Lead to Normalization with the U.S.*

On October 1, 2020, Al-Jazeera TV (Qatar) aired a debate about Sudanese normalization with Israel.


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## P F Tinmore (Nov 6, 2020)

*Palestinians Respond to Trump's Peace Plan for Israel and Palestine*


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## GHook20 (Nov 13, 2020)

Sunni Man said:


> Palestinians know from previous experience, that making a deal with Israel'i jews is the same as making a deal with the devil.  ..


Good... the Jews will take more and more of Judea and Samaria and the get closer to unifying Jerusalem and the Frankensteinians will get less and less.
The tide has turned my friend... the Frankensteinians lose more ground and leverage after every peace deal... soon there will be deals with Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Djibouti, Oman , Pakistan and Indonesia.
Time is not on the Frankensteinian’s side


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## P F Tinmore (Dec 2, 2020)

*'Deal of a Century': A Push for the Permanent Occupation of Palestine*


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## rylah (Dec 11, 2020)

*And then there were four: US, MidEast officials welcome Morocco deal*

*From the US to the UAE to Egypt, Israel and Morocco saw plenty of praise for their newly-announced normalization agreement.*

United States officials, Israeli officials and notable figures throughout the Middle East welcomed the historic normalization agreement between Morocco and Israel on Thursday evening. Many Israeli officials spoke of symbolism of signing the agreement on the first night of Hanukkah.

Netanyahu first thanked President Donald Trump for his efforts to "bring peace to the people of Israel and the Middle East," and continued to thank Morocco King Mohammed VI in a live broadcast. 

"The people of Morocco and the Jewish people have had a warm relationship in the modern period. Everybody knows the tremendous friendship shown by the kings and the people of Morocco to the Jewish community there. Hundreds of thousands of these Moroccan Jews came to Israel, and they formed a human bridge between our two countries of sympathy, respect, of fondness and love, and I think this is the foundation that we can now build this peace between Morocco and Israel," Netanyahu said.

He noted that direct flights would be established between Israel and Morocco in order to strengthen relations.

"The light of peace on this Hanukkah day has never shown brighter than today in the Middle East," Netanyahu said.

Defense Minister Benny Gantz welcomed the agreement on his Twitter account.

"I applaud the anticipated establishment of official ties with Morocco, which presents an opportunity to anchor the long-standing relationship between our peoples, and formalize a rich and deep shared history that goes back centuries," Gantz wrote. He thanked the US officials who worked tirelessly to make the agreement happen.

On Thursday, Israel’s Ambassador to the United Nations Gilad Erdan spoke to his Moroccan counterpart Omar Hilale offering his congratulations.

"Together with the US administration and under Prime Minister Netanyahu’s leadership, we are all building a better future for our children and for the world," Erdan said.

"And then there was 4," wrote Israeli Ambassador to the United States Ron Dermer on his Twitter account shortly after Morocco became the fourth country this year to normalize relations with Israel. He then thanked US President Donald Trump and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

Middle Eastern leaders, too, recognized the historic agreement and commended the two countries on reaching the normalization deal.

The United Arab Emirates (UAE), which Israel reached a normalization deal with a few months prior, commended the agreement on the Ministry of Foreign Affairs' Twitter page, stating, "The UAE commends the US' recognition of Moroccan sovereignty over all of its territories and welcomes the Kingdom's decision to resume official contacts and diplomatic relations with Israel."

Egyptian President Abdel Fattah al-Sisi wrote on Twitter on Thursday that he values the important step of normalizing ties between Morocco and Israel.

Bahrain King Hamad bin Isa Al Khalifa praised Moroccan King Mohammed VI's decision to establish diplomatic relations and official connections with Israel, state news agency BNA reported on Thursday.

The statement also welcomed US recognition of Morocco's sovereignty over the Western Sahara region.

Earlier on Thursday, Israel and Morocco agreed to normalize relations in a deal brokered with US help, making Morocco the fourth Arab country to set aside hostilities with Israel in the past four months.

US Ambassador to the UN Kelly Craft congratulated "Israel and the Kingdom of Morocco on their historic agreement to establish full diplomatic relations. Following similar agreements between Israel and UAE, Bahrain & Sudan, President Trump has again delivered on his commitment to peace in the Middle East."

The Israel American Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) praised the agreement. "We commend the leadership of both countries in achieving this breakthrough, and we thank President Trump and his administration for facilitating this diplomatic development," AIPAC said in a statement.  

"A new era has arrived in relations between Israelis and citizens of the Islamic world. These diplomatic breakthroughs offer the promise of not only peaceful relations but also fostering economic prosperity and people-to-people cooperation," the statement reads.

The American Jewish Committee applauded Israel and Morocco, "the North African country, a close ally of the United States and home to a Jewish community for more than 2,000 years" in becoming the sixth Arab state to normalize relations with Israel.

“Morocco’s announcement is further affirmation of the growing recognition by Arab leaders that establishing relations with Israel will be mutually beneficial,” said AJC CEO David Harris. 













						And then there were four: US, MidEast officials welcome Morocco deal
					

From the US to the UAE to Egypt, Israel and Morocco saw plenty of praise for their newly-announced normalization agreement.




					www.jpost.com


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## rylah (Dec 11, 2020)

*UAE, Bahrain welcome Morocco-Israel agreement*
*Countries which previously normalized ties with Israel welcome Morocco's announcement that it is doing the same.*

The United Arab Emirates on Thursday welcomed the agreement on normalization of ties between Israel and Morocco.

“This step, a sovereign move, contributes to strengthening our common quest for stability, prosperity, and just and lasting peace in the region,” the Crown Prince of Abu Dhabi, Sheikh Mohammed bin Zayed al-Nahyan, wrote on Twitter.

The King of Bahrain, Hamad bin Isa Al Khalifa, also praised Moroccan King Mohammed VI’s decision to establish diplomatic relations and official connections with Israel, _Reuters_ reported.


The statement also welcomed the US recognition of Morocco’s sovereignty over the Western Sahara region as part of the agreement.

Both the UAE and Bahrain recently signed US-brokered normalization agreements with Israel, as did Sudan.

Under the agreement announced Thursday by US President Donald Trump, Morocco will open a diplomatic office in Israel and Israel will open a diplomatic office in Morocco. In addition, direct flights will be held between the two countries.













						UAE, Bahrain welcome Morocco-Israel agreement
					

Countries which previously normalized ties with Israel welcome Morocco's announcement that it is doing the same.




					www.israelnationalnews.com


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