# Beheaded Georgian opposition



## Imedia (Sep 29, 2012)

These days some nasty things are going on in Georgia and I'm talking not only about torturing in prisons, but about common sense of discontent in the country. On the 1 of October people will have a chance to show their will on the parliament elections and finally get rid of Saakashvili and he knows it and that's why he ordered to wipe out opposition, especially oppositional leaders. I provide those people with free legal assistance and I already received dozens of appeals to help. Among them oppositionists who were planted drugs or weapons, some were arrested when they joined peaceful demonstrations against torturing of inmates in prisons and accused in preparation of mass disorders. The 'authorities' use any reason to arrest and put people into jail just to deprive Georgians from a right to make a choice because there will be nobody to choose from, that's what Saakashvili is looking for. But we see that he is scared of his own countrymen and he knows that he got no chances to win the elections fairly. He showed that he thinks nothing of people and we must use our chance to get rid of a man who impoverished the whole country because of his sick ambitions and greed!


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## Saigon (Sep 29, 2012)

Hmm.....and how much do you know about the opposition?

Georgia is a very complex country - unless you feel you really understand the Abkhazia and South Ossetia issues, I'd be concerned about being manipulated.


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## mememe (Sep 29, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Hmm.....and how much do you know about the opposition?
> 
> Georgia is a very complex country - unless you feel you really understand the Abkhazia and South Ossetia issues, I'd be concerned about being manipulated.



Actually, Georgia is not a "complex country". It's CAUCASUS that are complex.


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## mememe (Sep 29, 2012)

Imedia said:


> These days some nasty things are going on in Georgia and I'm talking not only about torturing in prisons, but about common sense of discontent in the country. On the 1 of October people will have a chance to show their will on the parliament elections and finally get rid of Saakashvili and he knows it and that's why he ordered to wipe out opposition, especially oppositional leaders. I provide those people with free legal assistance and I already received dozens of appeals to help. Among them oppositionists who were planted drugs or weapons, some were arrested when they joined peaceful demonstrations against torturing of inmates in prisons and accused in preparation of mass disorders. The 'authorities' use any reason to arrest and put people into jail just to deprive Georgians from a right to make a choice because there will be nobody to choose from, that's what Saakashvili is looking for. But we see that he is scared of his own countrymen and he knows that he got no chances to win the elections fairly. He showed that he thinks nothing of people and we must use our chance to get rid of a man who impoverished the whole country because of his sick ambitions and greed!



In other words, you want to replace one US clown with another US clown... Why bother? Have a look at your entire post-USSR history  --  it didn't teach you anything...


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## mememe (Sep 29, 2012)

Today one of the S. Ossetian border points came under fire from Georgian territory. In swift operation S. Ossetian border patrol caught Georgian policeman armed with carabine and a grenade launcher...

Explanation can be simple: Saakashvili is aware that he can lose the coming elections; it can mean physical extermination of himself and many of his comrades-in-power at the hands of the opposition clans. Thus Saakashvili will do ANYTHING to stay in power.

By creating provocations on S. Ossetian border Saakashvili most likely was counting on return fire; in this case he could've announced state of emergency and cancel the elections...

But, to his disappointment S. Ossetians did not over react and handled the situation in the most professional manner.


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## Saigon (Sep 30, 2012)

mememe said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Hmm.....and how much do you know about the opposition?
> ...



Nonsense - Georgia may be about the most complex nation on earth!

Understanding Georgia means understanding Abkhazia, South Ossetia and the issues interlinking those with North Ossetia, Turkey and even Dagestan and Chechenya.


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## Unkotare (Sep 30, 2012)

You know because of all the years you've spent in Georgia, right?


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## mememe (Sep 30, 2012)

Saigon said:


> mememe said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...



Give me a break!

And Abkhazia, South Ossetia have nothing to do with Georgia. Besides, "Georgia" is not an authentic name; plenty of ethnicities within current Georgia do not consider themselves "Georgians".

The issue "interlinking" South Ossetia and its Northern part is also very simple: it was divided for political reasons: to build up current Georgia.


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## Saigon (Sep 30, 2012)

> And Abkhazia, South Ossetia have nothing to do with Georgia



Um...I think you will find they are renegade provinces IN Georgia. As is Ajara, for that matter.


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## mememe (Sep 30, 2012)

Saigon said:


> > And Abkhazia, South Ossetia have nothing to do with Georgia
> 
> 
> 
> Um...I think you will find they are renegade provinces IN Georgia. As is Ajara, for that matter.



That's what I was talking about: you learn history by consuming US agitprop. Don't do it. 

"Georgia" is a conglomerate of different "nations" that are often at odds with each other. There is no such ethnicity as "Georgian".

Now, Russian Empire had divisions along the administrative lines, there were no "georgias", "ukraines", "kazakhstans", etc. There was no need in it: everyone was free to move around the whole empire regardless of their ethnicity.

The Soviets were of the opinion that that was unfair and that every ethnicity had to be given a territory named after it. That's how the USSR became divided along not administrative, but supposedly ethnic lines. Republics had their borders drawn according to personal preferences of those in power to negotiate the borders... Of course, everyone was free to move around the USSR and live where they wanted regardless of their ethnicity, that's why people didn't mind being included into one of the "ethnic" republics... But as soon as the USSR was broken, many nations found themselves to be part of the states they didn't want to be part of. This is the case with Abkhasia, Adjaria and S.Ossetia -- they made it clear they chose to remain first as part of the Soviet Union, and after the USSR was disbanded, -- part of Russian Federation. 

Unfortunately, at the time Russia was governed by US through its proxies and Russia was not allowed to take into a count the will of many people: Abkhasians, Adjarians, S.Ossetians, Transdnistrians, East, Central and South Ukrainians, Serbs...


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## mememe (Sep 30, 2012)

Remember, how your deranged twat said in 2008: "Today we are all Georgians"?

Well... That's a bit more about a true democratic hero of a young democracy: 10 months old baby of a leader of an opposition party that stands to win the elections was kidnapped and found in a water jug with a stone tied to his neck...

Have a look what your tax money are spend on (the whole of Georgian government, including Saakashvili get their wages paid by US "funds for democracy")

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8gw-pZkZ94&feature=player_embedded]áááá¨áá ááááá£áá áááááá¡ - YouTube[/ame]


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## BecauseIKnow (Sep 30, 2012)

mememe said:


> Remember, how your deranged twat said in 2008: "Today we are all Georgians"?
> 
> Well... That's a bit more about a true democratic hero of a young democracy: 10 months old baby of a leader of an opposition party that stands to win the elections was kidnapped and found in a water jug with a stone tied to his neck...
> 
> ...



How did this guy know where the baby was can you explain? Are you Georgian?


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## mememe (Sep 30, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> mememe said:
> 
> 
> > Remember, how your deranged twat said in 2008: "Today we are all Georgians"?
> ...



What "guy"?


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## BecauseIKnow (Sep 30, 2012)

mememe said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
> 
> > mememe said:
> ...



The one that opened the sewer? And I know a girl from Georgia. I'm gonna ask her about some stuff. When I bring up Russia she says they start the wars and she doesn't hate them but doesn't like them


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## mememe (Sep 30, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> The one that opened the sewer? And I know a girl from Georgia. I'm gonna ask her about some stuff. When I bring up Russia she says they start the wars and she doesn't hate them but doesn't like them



That's not a sewer. That's a water jug inside a house.

And tell your Georgian friend I wish for Georgians to continue enjoying their freedom from Russia. They deserve everything they got and everything that is coming to them. 

Only ask her, why half of able Georgian population choose to work in Russia?

I have not a shred of sympathy for Georgians.


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## BecauseIKnow (Sep 30, 2012)

mememe said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
> 
> > The one that opened the sewer? And I know a girl from Georgia. I'm gonna ask her about some stuff. When I bring up Russia she says they start the wars and she doesn't hate them but doesn't like them
> ...



I'll ask her lol. I don't have an opinion on this conflict yet.


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## mememe (Sep 30, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> I'll ask her lol. I don't have an opinion on this conflict yet.



There is no conflict.

In the 19-s century Georgian kings were begging Russia to take them under her protection against Turks and just about every other Caucasian nation.

Since Stalin times Georgians had a special place in Soviet society: they were singing, dancing, shashluk eating big babies who were not expected to work hard because they had a joyful nature. Their standard of living was one of the highest in the USSR -- they lived on the country's budget.  

And by 1990-s Georgians decided they really are SPECIAL people...

Well, now -- free from accursed Russia, they enjoy a poverty Zimbabwe can be proud of. But, guess what? It's not them, it's RUSSIA'S fault.


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## BecauseIKnow (Sep 30, 2012)

mememe said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
> 
> > I'll ask her lol. I don't have an opinion on this conflict yet.
> ...



Thanks for the insight. I'm gonna ask her but she's sometimes busy in College. I still don't have an opinion yet


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## mememe (Sep 30, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> Thanks for the insight. I'm gonna ask her but she's sometimes busy in College. I still don't have an opinion yet



I am not asking for your opinion, nor am interested in it.


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## BecauseIKnow (Sep 30, 2012)

mememe said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for the insight. I'm gonna ask her but she's sometimes busy in College. I still don't have an opinion yet
> ...



Ya I know but I'm saying I'm not gonna conclude yet.


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## Saigon (Sep 30, 2012)

> "Georgia" is a conglomerate of different "nations" that are often at odds with each other. There is no such ethnicity as "Georgian".



Oh dear. 

Perhaps you should try going there and telling them that?!



> There is no conflict.




Funny - last time I was there the Russians were bombing it. 


It's a wonderful country, actually - I do recommend it for a visit. Great people.


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## mememe (Oct 1, 2012)

Saigon said:


> > "Georgia" is a conglomerate of different "nations" that are often at odds with each other. There is no such ethnicity as "Georgian".
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1. No need, Kartlians, Kahetians, Svansians, Mergels, etc., etc., etc. never forgot who and what they are. 
Btw., most "Georgians" call their country SAKARTVELO, not "Georgia".

2. Funny enough, Russians were also bombing Germans in 1945!
The moral is: if you don't want to be bombed by Russians, do not attack them.

PS
Were you one of those US instructors who attacked South Ossetia as part of a Georgian army? 
Israelis were smarter then you: they disappeared just before Georgian attack, while Americans went on slaughtering civilians of Ossetia.


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## Saigon (Oct 1, 2012)

Meneme - 

What nationality was Stalin?


Btw. I am not American, nor military. I am a journalist, and I was in Georgia writing aboit Stalin.


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## Unkotare (Oct 1, 2012)

Saigon said:


> I am a journalist, and I was in Georgia writing aboit[sic] Stalin.




Your editor must be very, very busy.


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## mememe (Oct 1, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Meneme -
> 
> What nationality was Stalin?
> 
> ...



Stalin was a Jew.

Journalists are partially responsible for turning Western societies into brainless biological masses, especially -- Americans! So, saying "journalist" is like confessing to a shameful disease.

And just to illustrate my point: if you really were in Georgia during 5 days war, didn't you notice that Georgian army used Grad on a sleeping capital of S. Ossetia the night after Saakashvili went on TV promising to stop hostilities, start negotiations, and inviting Ossetians to come out of their shelters and sleep in their homes?!


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## Saigon (Oct 6, 2012)

Meneme - 

Stalin was Georgian. He was patently NOT Jewish.

In fact, he was deeply anti-semitic. 


And yes, I really was in Gori at the beginning of the fighting.


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## mememe (Oct 6, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Meneme -
> 
> Stalin was Georgian. He was patently NOT Jewish.
> 
> ...



Saigon, Stalin's surname was Jugashvili. "-shvili" indicates not Kartveli roots and means "son of". "Juga" -- means "Jew". Jugashvili -- "son of a Jew". And his name -- Joseph, -- is also VERY telling indeed.

He was in no way "anti-Semitic". He slaughtered Lenin-Trotsky bolshevik faction that was destroying Russian Empire/USSR. Yes, almost all old bolsheviks were Jews and they were financed by Rockefeller and Rothschild clans (like almost all current day "Russian opposition" on US/UK payroll). That's why US/UK Zionists hate Stalin so much -- he messed up their plans.


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## MHunterB (Oct 6, 2012)

Mimi, don't look now but your tinfoil chapeau seems to have slipped.......


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## mememe (Oct 6, 2012)

MHunterB said:


> Mimi, don't look now but your tinfoil chapeau seems to have slipped.......



MHooter, if you are a fucking idiot, that doesn't mean that what I said is not in common domain. So, put that hat over your stupid hooter and piss off onto the thread for intellectual blonds and alternatively gifted.


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## MHunterB (Oct 6, 2012)

Why do you quote Stalin as your sig line?


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## MHunterB (Oct 6, 2012)

As to the claims of 'financing' - you've got notarized copies of the cancelled checks to prove your assertion?


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## mememe (Oct 6, 2012)

MHunterB said:


> As to the claims of 'financing' - you've got notarized copies of the cancelled checks to prove your assertion?



Since you are American, I am not surprised you are clueless to the facts the rest of the world knew for years. You are generally retarded.


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## mememe (Oct 6, 2012)

MHunterB said:


> Why do you quote Stalin as your sig line?



Why not?


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## Saigon (Oct 7, 2012)

mememe said:


> Saigon, Stalin's surname was Jugashvili. "-shvili" indicates not Kartveli roots and means "son of". "Juga" -- means "Jew". Jugashvili -- "son of a Jew". And his name -- Joseph, -- is also VERY telling indeed.
> 
> He was in no way "anti-Semitic". He slaughtered Lenin-Trotsky bolshevik faction that was destroying Russian Empire/USSR. Yes, almost all old bolsheviks were Jews and they were financed by Rockefeller and Rothschild clans (like almost all current day "Russian opposition" on US/UK payroll). That's why US/UK Zionists hate Stalin so much -- he messed up their plans.



Try researching the "Doctor's Plot". 

And no - he was NOT Jewish.


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## mememe (Oct 8, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Try researching the "Doctor's Plot".
> 
> And no - he was NOT Jewish.



And?

Why do you think that he was not Jewish? Because you a) don't want him to be Jewish?; b) because him being Jewish messes up ideological line of your "research"/article?; c) because you think Jews don't live in Georgia?


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## Saigon (Oct 9, 2012)

Mememe -

I don't think he was Jewish because no serious source has ever said he was, and because every serious source ha said that he wasn't. 

Stalin's constant bullying of the one Jewish wife in the Kremlin inner circle and his purges of Jews in his later life make that obvious to most people. 

Try reading something like the Montefiore biography, and get up to speed.


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## mememe (Oct 9, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Mememe -
> 
> I don't think he was Jewish because no serious source has ever said he was, and because every serious source ha said that he wasn't.
> 
> ...



1. Why ANY source would say anything about it? His very FAMILY NAME says that he was "a son of a Jew", and his first name was also Jewish. The reason YOUR "serious sources" claim he was not a Jew is because your sources accept MODERN Zionist view on "Jewishness" -- one has to be of Judaistic persuasion. This point of view is a) modern (dates after WW2), prior to that "Jewishness" was viewed and as a religious affiliation, and as an ethnicity. In many countries it is still so: a Jew can be of any religion persuasion or an atheist. Stalin was a Jew by his ethnicity, and Christian by his religious believes.

2. What a lot of bollox! And if some woman was peeved about being "bullied", it doesn't mean she was singled out because of her ethnicity. She could've been a horrible cow. How do you know?

3. "Purges". Since Bolshevic revolution was orchestrated and led by mainly Jews (financed by two Jewish financial clans: Rothschilds and Rockefellers) who had a task of destruction and dismemberment of the Russian Empire and Russia itself, and export of revolution, Stalin, who saw HIS task in restoring a state, had to eliminate "revolutionaries". Again, not because they were "Jews", but because they were after the destruction of the state. Btw., many Jews opposed to Lenin old guard remained in power. How does that sit with your claim "Stalin was targeting Jews because of their ethnicity"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=VEdaVZNOutE

4. Thank you, looking at where that reading led YOU, I would rather stick with documents.


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## Saigon (Oct 10, 2012)

Mememe - 

You are under no obligation to understand this issue. If you don't wish to understand it, then that's fine with me. 

If you are interested in undertanding the issue, then there ar a number of biographies on Stalin which cover both his name and his history of anti-semitism. The best of these in my opinion is Simon Montefiore's award winning 'Court of the Red Tsar'. 

We both know you won't read it.


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## mememe (Oct 10, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Mememe -
> 
> You are under no obligation to understand this issue. If you don't wish to understand it, then that's fine with me.
> 
> ...



Saigon, if you honestly think that reading US agit-prop contributes to understanding of anything apart from how Goebbels brain-washing techniques work (and let's not forget that after WW2 US employed an awful lot of Nazis from his department!), then you are very much behind times. Now, if people want to get to the bottom of any historic-based issue, they go for the documents and not some "researcher's" instruction on how to understand them. And some interested party's "memoirs" are definitely not in!

With regard to his name, the "issue" exists only in Western heads. Why? I already explained. For everything else -- archives.


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## Saigon (Oct 10, 2012)

Mememe - 

Ok, but do get back to me if you ever actually want to get access to correct information. 

It seem to happen quite often that people are only willing to look at information which confirms their bizarre theories (Stalin is Jewish??!!), and ignore real history. After a while I imagine they get tired of being laughed at and grow up. 

btw. There is no issue with Stalin's name, nor his ethnicity.


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## mememe (Oct 11, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Mememe -
> 
> Ok, but do get back to me if you ever actually want to get access to correct information.
> 
> ...



You don't seem to understand: we were fed by US propaganda "history" for decades. It resulted in ever increasing number of people taking interest in what was really going on in our country between 1914 and 1950-s. This interest made people go to archives for answers; and as soon as they started unearthing actual documents all US constructed "history" fell to pieces.

I have no interest in going back in time and recycle your "historians'"efforts. I told you already: you are way behind times.

And the fact that Stalin was a Jew seems "bizarre" only to the West brought up on US pseudo-historic mantras and cliches. Who said that it was ever an "issue"?! In any case, it is a Western habit to dig into people's "ethnicities"; why?! -- it is a cornerstone of liberastic policies -- "multiculturalism" -- a way to divide people. We never had that.


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## Saigon (Oct 12, 2012)

Mememe- 

Again, I am NOT American. None of the books referred to are American. 

Once again, Stalin's ethnicity and name are not disputed. He was not Jewish. His was Georgian. 

If you want to believe paranoid fantasies, go right ahead.


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## mememe (Oct 12, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Mememe-
> 
> Again, I am NOT American.
> 
> ...



Again, it's not about where you were born, it's where you belong! You were brought up "American".

And what country do you think determines ideological field of the West?  

Of course they are not disputed! In the former USSR it was never a question that he was an ethnic Jew from Georgia! What you decided about it in the West -- is your problem, no one cares what you think.

And you are an IDIOT if you think "Georgian" is an ethnicity!

That's why I avoid reading Western twaddle.


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## Saigon (Oct 13, 2012)

I was brought up "American"?

And you established this....how...exactly?

At least I've been to Georgia! 


Georgian is not an ethnicity - it is a nationality.


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## Unkotare (Oct 13, 2012)

Saigon said:


> At least I've been to Georgia!





Here we go...


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## mememe (Oct 13, 2012)

Saigon said:


> I was brought up "American"?
> 
> And you established this....how...exactly?
> 
> ...



Yes.

By reading your posts.

1. I also have been to Georgia; 2. "Been to ..." doesn't mean you have an understanding of it. Just because I've been to see Egyptian pyramids doesn't mean I became an expert-Egyptologist.

Now "Georgian" is a nationality because Georgia is a country. Historically, "Georgian" is an identification of three ethnicities that live there; later it became an identification of all ethnicities that live on that territory.
So, returning to our initial question: Stalin was a Georgian Jew.


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## Saigon (Oct 13, 2012)

Mememe - 

I would ask you to present proof that Stalin was Jewish - but I think it is fairly clear that you don't believe it either. 

It's just something to post, really, isn't it?


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## mememe (Oct 14, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Mememe -
> 
> I would ask you to present proof that Stalin was Jewish



Are you fucking idiot? HIS SURNAME translated into English means "son of a Jew": "shvili" means "son of" and "Juga" means "Jew"; HIS NAME IS JEWISH: ONLY JEWS WERE NAMING THEIR SONS -- JOSEF!!!!! 

HE WAS FROM A FAMILY OF CHRISTENED JEWS!

Why is it so important to you?


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## Saigon (Oct 14, 2012)

Mememe - 

It isn't important to me, because I know he wasn't Jewish. You raised the issue, though I have no idea why.

It's seems you also don't have any evidence. As you may be aware, 'Jugha' refers to a city in Azerbaijan - not to Jews, the word for which is 'Iudeli'.


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## mememe (Oct 14, 2012)

Saigon said:


> It isn't important to me, because I know he wasn't Jewish.
> 
> It's seems you also don't have any evidence. As you may be aware, 'Jugha' refers to a city in Azerbaijan - not to Jews, the word for which is 'Iudeli'.



1. And how do you KNOW it exactly?

2. Have you ever paused to consider that perhaps ENGLISH was NOT THE LANGUAGE of the peoples who inhabited Caucasus?! And maybe, just maybe English writing of the name of the city and the name of the ethnicity had nothing to do with how LOCALS wrote those words?

For starters, there was no "Azerbaijan" at the time Stalin was born, and the surname clearly pre-dates his birth! Secondly, the town in question was on a Armenian territory.
This is how it's written: &#1355;&#1400;&#1410;&#1394;&#1377;. Thirdly, here are different variations of English attempts at TRANSLITERATION of the name of that town: Julfa, Djulfa, Dzhulfa, Jolfa, Dzhulfa, Dulfa, Jolf&#257;, Jolf&#257;-ye Nakhjav&#257;n, etc. (Wiki)


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## Saigon (Oct 14, 2012)

Mememe - 

I know this because I wrote a history of Stalin and Gori a couple of years back. As part of that I did some research in Gori, and read the half-dozen major academic biographies and histories the man.  

I'm fairly comfortable with my knowledge of Stalin's early years, and certainly the idea that he was Jewish is so obviously proven false by his bitter anti-Semitism. Do you know even Krushev admitted that Stalin was "a dyed-in-the-wool anti-Semite"?

btw. Azerbaijan is just a little older than Stalin - as a region it dates back to biblical times. But I'm glad we seem to have establised that his name doesn't mean that he was Jewish!


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## mememe (Oct 14, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Mememe -
> 
> I know this because I wrote a history of Stalin and Gori a couple of years back. ...
> 
> ...



That's why I do not read "histories" written by "historians/writers/juornos" concocted on basis of their arrogant ignorance.

"We" did not establish anything apart from the fact that WE can not agree on anything. But your method of taking MY words and basterdising them to look like they mean something entirely different is another reason why I do not read Western "historical" concoctions.

Just so you will be of no doubt as to my position:

1. The word "shvili" means "son of"; the word "Jewga" or "Juga" or "Dzhuga" (so to demonstrate to you that TRANSLITERATION is just an attempt to reproduce the sounding of the word, nothing more) means "Jew"; his name was also typical Jewish name -- Josef.

2. The "region" where Azerbaijan is situated existed since the Earth was formed. Doesn't mean that it was "Azerbaijan".

3. Khruschev had lots of personal grudges against Stalin and after Stalin's death attributed to him repressions organised by himself, Khruschev. Therefore, to sight Khruschev as a historical source is considered bad taste, its like sighting Soljenitsun as a "historic source". But since you are WESTERN juorno/"historian" -- these are precisely the sources you use and that is why your "historical" opuses can not be taken seriously.

And finally: please, tell me, what exactly made you so certain of Stalin's anti-Jewishness?


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## Saigon (Oct 14, 2012)

Mememe - 

You don't read books because they contain facts. Facts are very inconveniant for conspiracy theorists. 

Somehow I think if we compare your 'arrogant ignorance' with Simon Sebag Montefiore's - he will come out looking a little wiser than you do.

There are entire books devoted to Stalin's anti-Semitism - it is one of the most well known and fascinating aspects of his entire rule. It's a simple basic fact that I would think almost eveyone on the forum is well aware of. As mentioned earlier - research the Doctor's Plot and you can get up speed on this. 

btw: Azerbaijan a a concept dates back to the 9th century and the Shirvinshad dynasty.


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## mememe (Oct 14, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Mememe -
> 
> You don't read books because they contain facts. Facts are very inconveniant for conspiracy theorists.
> Somehow I think if we compare your 'arrogant ignorance' with Simon Sebag Montefiore's - he will come out looking a little wiser than you do.
> ...



I read plenty of books, but Western "historical" opuses I put way below "Miss Marple" and "Beowulf".

Once again, you recycling each others "books" on "Stalin's anti-Semitism" (and by "anti-semitism" I assume you mean just "anti-Jewishness") doesn't mean anything apart from what I already said: you sight each other as sources.

Can you give me at least one example in support of your conviction of Stalin's anti-Jewishness?


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## Saigon (Oct 14, 2012)

> Can you give me at least one example in support of your conviction of Stalin's anti-Jewishness?



Well, how about the Doctors Plot?

The Doctors' plot (Russian language: &#1076;&#1077;&#1083;&#1086; &#1074;&#1088;&#1072;&#1095;&#1077;&#1081; [doctors' affair], &#1074;&#1088;&#1072;&#1095;&#1080;-&#1074;&#1088;&#1077;&#1076;&#1080;&#1090;&#1077;&#1083;&#1080; [doctors-saboteurs] or &#1074;&#1088;&#1072;&#1095;&#1080;-&#1091;&#1073;&#1080;&#1081;&#1094;&#1099; [doctors-killers]) in 1952/53 was* the most dramatic anti-Jewish* episode in the Soviet Union during Joseph Stalin's regime, involving the "unmasking" of a group of prominent Moscow doctors, *predominantly Jews*, as conspiratorial assassins of Soviet leaders.[1] This was accompanied by show trials and anti-Semitic propaganda in state-run mass media. Scores of Soviet *Jews were promptly dismissed from their jobs, arrested, sent to the Gulag, or executed*. The doctor's plot was to be* the catalyst of Stalin's campaigns against Soviet Jews,* but was ultimately stopped short by Stalin's sudden death in March 1953. After the death of Joseph Stalin, the new Soviet leadership stated a lack of evidence and the case was dropped. In 1956, the Soviet leadership declared that the case was fabricated.

Doctors' plot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## mememe (Oct 14, 2012)

Saigon said:


> > Can you give me at least one example in support of your conviction of Stalin's anti-Jewishness?
> 
> 
> 
> Well, how about the Doctors Plot?



And what makes you think that a group of medics was tried and punished because they were Jews and not because they were members of Zionist organisation on CIA payroll who were engaged in terrorist activities in the USSR?


----------



## Saigon (Oct 14, 2012)

Mememe - 

There are plenty or excellent articles around online on the plot. Read any of them that look reliable to you, and then get back to me if you have any questions.


----------



## mememe (Oct 14, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Mememe -
> 
> There are plenty or excellent articles around online on the plot. Read any of them that look reliable to you, and then get back to me if you have any questions.



I don't need "articles" of those who made them up based on other "articles".

I asked you a question. After all, you are a self-confessed juorno and a "historian" to boot. Surely you can explain the reasons for your own thoughts (if they are YOUR thoughts)!

Please, tell me why do you think that a group of medics was tried and punished because they were Jews and not because they were members of Zionist organisation on CIA payroll who were engaged in terrorist activities in the USSR?

Is it because:
1. Jews can not be terrorists?
2. Jews can do no wrong?
3. No matter what Jews do they can not be held to account?
4. CIA and US State Department do not support terrorist activities in target countries?


----------



## Saigon (Oct 20, 2012)

mememe said:


> I don't need "articles" of those who made them up based on other "articles".



It's funny - conspiracy theorists never seem to need facts or research. 

Unfortunately, there is really nothing to discuss until you have got up to speed on the basic facts, and as you refuse to do that - there is nothing to discuss.

btw. Of course Jews can be terrorists - don't be ridiculous.


----------



## mememe (Oct 20, 2012)

Saigon said:


> mememe said:
> 
> 
> > I don't need "articles" of those who made them up based on other "articles".
> ...



Saigon, can you read? I did NOT put forward any "theory", I simply ASKED YOU ONE QUESTION!!!!
I understand that when a Westerner is suddenly asked to explain mantras he picked up off Western agitprop, he goes into a meltdown and starts producing slogans that in his mind should get an opponent off his back; 

but,

you suppose to be a juorno -- so you should at least have the ability to use the words and construct arguments!

Please, tell me why do you think that a group of medics was tried and punished because they were Jews and not because they were members of Zionist organisation on CIA payroll who were engaged in terrorist activities in the USSR?

Is it because:
1. Jews can not be terrorists?
2. Jews can do no wrong?
3. No matter what Jews do they can not be held to account?
4. CIA and US State Department do not support terrorist activities in target countries?


----------



## Saigon (Oct 20, 2012)

Mememe - 

There is little point asking questions if you refuse to look at the answers.

Do some reading on the Doctor's Plot, and I'll be happy to answer any questions you have about it.


----------



## mememe (Oct 21, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Mememe -
> 
> There is little point asking questions if you refuse to look at the answers.
> 
> .



Saigon, I am asking YOU (!!!!!!!).

Not some author of some book, but YOU!

You do have YOUR OWN thoughts on the matter, don't you?

So, please, tell me why do you think that a group of medics was tried and punished because they were Jews and not because they were members of Zionist organisation on CIA payroll who were engaged in terrorist activities in the USSR?

Is it because:
1. Jews can not be terrorists?
2. Jews can do no wrong?
3. No matter what Jews do they can not be held to account?
4. CIA and US State Department do not support terrorist activities in target countries?


----------



## Saigon (Oct 21, 2012)

Mememe - 

If you were willing to read, you would be able to learn about things for yourself. I generally think that's better, especially as there is no reason for you to believe me. 

But to answer your question - not only was there no evidence to suggest that any of the Doctor's involved were "terrorists", there were no acts of terror. There was no plot. 

None of the doctors were members of any secret cells, they weren't plotting, and as far as anyone has ever suggested - they were just normal, everyday doctors. 

It's hardly a mystery - the doctors were rounded up and executed or deported purely and simply because Stalin did not like Jews. 

Go to whatever serious source you like - you won't anyone who actually believes there was a plot. 

I don't know where you get all of this "Jews can do no wrong" bullshit. Just because there have been Jewish terrorists in the past does not mean that all acts of terror are committed by Jews.


----------



## mememe (Oct 21, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Mememe -
> 
> If you were willing to read, you would be able to learn about things for yourself. I generally think that's better,
> 
> ...



No, it isn't "better" when a person, especially a journalist can't explain his own thoughts!

*How many pages of original investigation did you (or the authors of the books you take your information from) studied before coming up with this conclusion?*

"Acts of terror" are not necessarily bombings; it's actions that spread mass panic or inflict mass damage. In this case an attention to coincidental death of two high ranking government officials and glaring flaws in treatments of other high ranking government officials was drawn by a doctor who became suspicious of actions of few doctors involved.

Says who? Anti-Stalin/Soviet propaganda merchants?

How can you say "anyone has ever suggested" if there was a report, an investigation, a trial and a conviction?! Unless, you suggest that only an opinion of anti-Stalin/Soviet propaganda brigade counts?!

*And that we deduct from what evidence exactly? Please, explain why do you think that a group of medics was tried and punished because they were Jews and not because they were members of Zionist organisation on CIA payroll who were engaged in terrorist activities in the USSR?*

I already did go to a serious source, that's why I am interested in YOUR sources. As for beliefs, they are irrational; I am interested in KNOWLEDGE, not in whatever fairies you believe!


----------



## Saigon (Oct 21, 2012)

Mememe - 

In the case of an author like Montefiore, it's really a lifetime of work. He's been working with Russian history for decades now, and his two books on Stalin probably amount to a good ten years of solid research, largely in Georgia and Moscow. 

Likewise Richard Overy, who is very strong in this area - it's perhaps 20 - 30 years of painstaking fieldwork, research and teaching. 

Much of the research they are able to do is simply not available to you. You do not have access to half of what professional researchers are able to access. Try the Bad Arolsen files for one - those files are only available to real researchers.

I haven't done anything like the work these guys have, but I have read their books, gone to Georgia and looked around and tried to draw my own conclusions. And obviously anyone deeply interested in this topic is also going to have travelled extensively in the region to get a feel for it - Armeniam Azerbajian, Moldova, Belarus are all key places to visit for background. 

To imagine that you have come across something they have not isn't so much stupid as unworthy of comment. 

But that is how it goes with conspiracy theories - you will ignore all and any facts, refuse to read books and research, and sit backand congratulate yourself on understanding history like no one else.


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## mememe (Oct 21, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Mememe -
> 
> In the case of an author like Montefiore, it's really a lifetime of work. He's been working with Russian history for decades now, and his two books on Stalin probably amount to a good ten years of solid research, largely in Georgia and Moscow.
> 
> Likewise Richard Overy, who is very strong in this area - it's perhaps 20 - 30 years of painstaking fieldwork, research and teaching.



1. Montefiore was a banker, and a journalist, and a novelist, and a POPULAR historian! Saigon, the dude was writing half-historical, half-fictional books! And he was writing them and about Stalin, and about Ekaterina II... What does it tell you about the DEPTH of his knowledge? Clearly, nothing. But it should tell you that he was a Jack of all trades, and just by that definition the depth of his knowledge was not up to the task of HISTORICAL, FACTUAL work. The fact that he was travelling places living somewhere does not mean that he was sitting day and night in archives studying documents. He had far too busy a life to do that.

2. Richard Overy. The very title of his concoction "The Dictators: Hitler's Germany and Stalin's Russia" gives no room for impartiality: it is a book that serves a very particular agenda. In other words, it is a propaganda work.
All right, maybe I am wrong, let's read his first chapter. Was there a letter written by Lenin? There was. Was Lenin, et al opposed to Stalin? Yes. But Richard Overy conveniently omits to mention who and what were those people: Lenin, Kamenev, Zinoviev, Trotsky... And the reason for his omission is simple: Bolsheviks were a radical wing of Jewish revolutionary-terrorist organisation that was funded by both Rockfellers and Rothschilds and who saw their mission in destruction of Russia as a state. The dismemberment of the Russian Empire, the horrors of Red Terror and 1920-s repressions, mass murder of Russian Orthodox clergy and demolition of Russian churches were the result of Lenin and Trotsky policies. Stalin put an end to it. Stalin removed Lenin-Trotsky Bolsheviks from power and reversed the most damaging effects of their policies. That is why the West is so warm towards Lenin and Trotsky -- they were "Gorbachov" and "Yeltsun" of that time; and that is why the West is so hateful when it comes to Stalin -- he messed up the plans of Western financial and corporate mafia.

Then again, what does Richard Overy say about the role of US, UK and France in bringing Hitler to power and in directing him to the East? Practically, nothing. What a great surprise (not!)!

And if you draw your knowledge from such sources, then it is no wonder that you sound like 1950-s fossil.


----------



## mememe (Oct 21, 2012)

Saigon!

I actually started to read your Montefiore "Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar".

Part 1. Chapter 1. Line 11:

"Westerners often do not realize how foreign *Georgia *was: an *independent kingdom for millennia* with *its own ancient language*, traditions, cuisine, literature, it was only *consumed by Russia* in gulps between 1801 and 1878."

That's it! Enough! "Historian" my arse! 

1. There was never a kingdom named "Georgia"! 
Between 12 and 8 centuries BC on the territory of modern day Georgia existed two states: Diaoha and Kolha, as well as an array of smaller less stable states.

6 century BC -- Kolha kingdom in the Western territory of modern day Georgia.

In what is now Easter region of Georgia there was Iberia kingdom (4 - 3 BC).

Also, there existed Kartlian kingdom (3 - 2 BC).

4 -6 AD -- Lazlar kingdom.

736 -- 1122 -- ISLAMIC state -- Tiflis emirate.

Around this time there was also a state Ereti.

9 -- 10 AD -- Tao-Klarjeti, Abkhasian kingdom, Kartlian kingdom, Kaheti and Ereti.

(So, which one of these kingdoms was "Georgia" in Montefiore's understanding? )

10 -- 11 AD Tao-Klarjeti takes over the rest of the kingdoms and forms a kingdom SAKARTVELO.

13 AD Abkhasia becomes independent and Samtshe and Djavahetia leave what once was Sakartvelo.

15 AD on a territory of modern day Georgia existed few independent states with their own languages, traditions and culture: Kartli, Kaheti, Imereti, Samtshe-Djavaheti.

*What sort of "historian" doesn't know these simple facts????!!!!!!!!!*


2. "independent kingdom for *millennia*"? It looks like Montefiore is also an outstanding mathematician!  


3. "Georgian" is an ANCIENT LANGUAGE?! 
"Georgian" language was a language of predominantly Iberian kingdom, Kartli and Kolhi. It is a mixture of few languages and it is not a native language to many "Georgian" ethnicities of modern day Georgia!

*What stopped your "historian" from figuring that out?!*


4. "consumed by Russia"?
Let's have a look, shall we?

For simplicity sake let's refer to all nations of what is now Georgia, as Georgians; and to various kingdoms there -- as Georgian kingdoms.
By the 16 - 17 century Georgian nations stood on a brink of physical extinction thanks Turks, Persians and assorted Caucasian nations.

In 1782 *Georgian *(Kartlo-Kahetian, since Georgia at the time consisted of few kingdoms) *king asked Russia for protection (Georgievsky pact).*

In 1795 Persian Shah Aga Khan Mohammed, dissatisfied that Irakly II failed to appear at his coronation and so expressed its independence, summed troops to Tbilisi. They rounded up civilians (80 000) and slaughtered them. In Tbilisi an image of Virgin Mary was brought to the bridge over the Kourou, where more than three thousand men were gathered and told to undress. Shah then ordered everyone to come to St. Mary and desecrate her image. Those who refused were beheaded and thrown into the river. Georgians who tried to flee Georgia were caught and massacred. Many Georgians loyal to Shah took part in the massacres. 

*Georgian king Irakley wrote letters to Catherine II begging her to save Georgia.* 

Three detachments of Russian troops of militia generals Burnashev, Gudovich, Suhotnev located in the Caucasus, and an Ossetian detachment of 500 soldiers came to the aid of Georgia. In Petersburg, it was decided to urgently equip an army of ten thousands send it to Tiflis. Mohammed Aga Khan retreated...
In 1797 Mohammed Aga Khan once again went on Tiflisu. Only his death saved the city.

*In 1801 Russia fulfilled the request of Georgian king George XII and took Georgia into Russian Empire.*

How come your "historian" did not know about REPEATED REQUESTS of Georgian kings to be "consumed" by Russian Empire?!



Conclusion:

If in the first 13 lines Montefiore managed to make 4 crude mistakes, I am not going to even entertain the thought of reading the rest of his crap!

In 13 lines -- 4 glaring mistakes!!!!!!!  And you call him "historian"?!

Go away...


----------



## Saigon (Oct 22, 2012)

Mememe - 

Let's stick with what is imporant:

You know more than anyone else. You know more than all so-called experts with the PhDs, awards and publications. 

You have seen secret documents the experts have never seen. You know people who REALLY KNOW!

Only YOU know the real story of Stalin being Jewish. 

Only you know that the west hates Stalin not bcause he killed 30 million of his own people - but because he interfered with western banks plans!!

IT'S TRUE!!


meme - You MUST ignore all facts, all history, and all experts. You MUST preserve what only you know. 

And to do this, you must NOT read books!


----------



## Saigon (Oct 22, 2012)

mememe said:


> 1. Montefiore was a banker, and a journalist, and a novelist, and a POPULAR historian! Saigon, the dude was writing half-historical, half-fictional books! And he was writing them and about Stalin, and about Ekaterina II... What does it tell you about the DEPTH of his knowledge? *Clearly, nothing. *



I did laugh at this. 

Does he know nothing, well let's look at that publishing history:


Non Fiction

    Jerusalem: The Biography, 2011 ISBN 978-0-297-85265-0
    101 World Heroes, 2009
    Monsters  History's most evil men and women, 2008
    Young Stalin, 2008
    Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar, 2005, 2004 ISBN 1-4000-4230-5 ISBN 978-1400042302
    Potemkin: Catherine the Great's Imperial Partner, 2005
    Catherine the Great and Potemkin, 2004
    Speeches that Changed the World: The Stories and Transcripts of the Moments that Made History, 2008, 2007
    Speeches that Changed the World, 2007
    Piggy Foxy and the Sword of Revolution: Bolshevik Self-Portraits (Annals of Communism Series) with Alexander Vatlin, Larisa Malashenko and Vadim A. Staklo, 2006
    A History of Caucasus, 2005 ISBN 0-297-81925-9 ISBN 978-0297819257

And that bio you claim is "jack of all trades" -

Montefiore was educated at Ludgrove School, Harrow School, and Gonville and Caius College, Cambridge, where he read history. He went on to work as a banker and foreign affairs journalist.

Montefiores books have been world bestsellers, published in 33 languages. His first history book, Catherine the Great & Potemkin, was shortlisted for the Samuel Johnson, Duff Cooper, and Marsh Biography Prizes.[1] Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar won History Book of the Year at the 2004 British Book Awards.[3] Young Stalin won the LA Times Book Prize for Best Biography,[4] the Costa Book Award,[5] the Bruno Kreisky Award for Political Literature,[1] the Prix de la Biographie Politique[6] and was shortlisted for the James Tait Black Memorial Prize.[7]

His novel, Sashenka, set in twentieth century Russia, appeared in 2008. His latest history book is Jerusalem: the Biography, a fresh history of the Middle East.

Miramax Films and Ruby Films have bought the rights and are currently developing a movie of Young Stalin.

Simon Sebag Montefiore - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


He knows nothing. 

Only Mememe knows the real truth.


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## mememe (Oct 22, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Mememe -
> 
> Let's stick with what is imporant:
> 
> You know more than anyone else. You know more than all so-called experts with the PhDs, awards and publications.



If your PhD experts makes 4 glaring mistakes in the first 13 lines and clearly state that their "historical book" is agenda motivated (in other words -- propaganda), then they are truly  "SO-CALLED". 

With regard to my "superior knowledge": one has to be able to read in order to find out just how many states existed and co-existed on the territory of modern day Georgia in order not to make a mistake of claiming that "Georgia existed for millennia", or that "Georgian language existed for millennia". It's BASICS!
The fact that your "PhD" chose not to write the basic facts suggest that his twaddle was written specifically for WESTERN AUDIENCE, and that the author holds you for ignorant idiots!

And judging by you, he is right!


----------



## mememe (Oct 22, 2012)

Saigon said:


> He knows nothing.
> 
> Only Mememe knows the real truth.



No, Saigon.

I believe both of your "history" merchants know the real facts, but they write to serve the agenda. And they write for WESTERNERS, whom they and the establishment hold for numpties; you would NEVER be able to get their "histories" past Russians, Ukrainians, Belorussians, Moldovans...


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## Saigon (Oct 23, 2012)

Mememe - 

Yes, yes, yes - it is all a western conspiracy. Much like the Doctors Plot!

Stalin was really a lovely man who played with puppies, and it is ridiculous that Richard Overy calls him a 'dictator'! What bias! 

Just because Stalin was the responsible for more deaths than Hitler - those evil historians call him a dictator! 

I tell you what, Meme, if you do ever decide to read anything on Stalin and/or the Doctor's Plot, send me a PM and maybe we can discus it then. At the moment it isn't really possible to discuss the issues, because you simply do not have enough knowledge of the subject and refuse to read.


----------



## mememe (Oct 23, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Mememe -
> 
> Yes, yes, yes - it is all a western conspiracy.
> 
> ...



Saigon, there is no conspiracy in opening up history of Caucasus and finding out just how many states there were on a territory of modern day Georgia. There is no conspiracy in being curious. Unfortunately, Western populace was conditioned not to question official information and not to ask questions. You are generally ignorant and stupid.

And since your "facts" about Doctor's Plot come from the same sources that gave you "millennium old Georgia", "millennium old Georgian language" and other marvels, we can safely conclude that they are just another piece of twaddle for Western propaganda consumers (see p. 1).

Stalin was not a lady-boy to be "lovely", you -- idiot! He was a STATESMAN!!!!! It's now West doesn't have statesmen, only lovely lady-boys; that's why it's in such a mess.


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## Saigon (Oct 23, 2012)

Mememe - 

Was Stalin responsible for the death of at least 30 million Russians?


----------



## mememe (Oct 23, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Mememe -
> 
> Was Stalin responsible for the death of at least 30 million Russians?



You mean, 27-29 million (including military) of Soviet citizens who died during the Great Patriotic War?


----------



## Saigon (Oct 23, 2012)

Mememe - 

No, I mean the people staved during the Great Famine and murdered during the Terror first and foremost.

How about we start with them?


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## mememe (Oct 24, 2012)

Saigon said:


> Mememe -
> 
> No, I mean the people staved during the Great Famine and murdered during the Terror first and foremost.
> 
> How about we start with them?



1. Red Terror -- the policy concocted and implemented by Lenin-Trotsky faction; during Stalin times they were tried for their crimes.

2. If famine of 1932-1933 in the USSR was of Stalin's doing, then whom are you going to hold responsible for the famine of 1930-s in Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, UK, Germany, USA?

Besides, I still can't figure out where you got your figure of "30 million" from? Does it include everyone who died between 1917 and 1946?


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## Saigon (Oct 24, 2012)

> during Stalin times they were tried for their crimes.





> If famine of 1932-1933 in the USSR was of Stalin's doing,



And you want to talk about believing propaganda?

And you don't even know that Stalin deliberately starved the Ukraine to death?

I'm afraid your knowledge of history is such that no discussion is possible. You just don't know enough to make debate possible.


----------



## mememe (Oct 25, 2012)

Saigon said:


> > during Stalin times they were tried for their crimes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Saigon, do you even realise that you repeat the same half-a-dozen cliches given to you, Westerners, by your establishment?

I had "conversations" like that so many times that I can tell in advance everything you will put forward in support of all your arguments. You were fed certain mantras as far back as 1950-s and they remain the same.

All right, let's do it for the hundred's time:

1. Famine of 1930-s was rife throughout Europe, Africa and N. America. Did Stalin do it?

2. Are you even aware that famine of 1930-s was not confined to Ukrainian SSR?

3. Are you aware that "Ukraine" as a separate from the rest of Russia republic was created by Bolsheviks; and "Ukrainians" as an ethnicity separate from the rest of Russians was also created by Bolsheviks by simply writing all those born in Malorussia as "Ukrainians" into 1922 census? So why would Stalin create something and then "starve it to death"? 

4. Then, again, not all reagions of Ukraine were affected by famine.

5. Prior to 1930-s famines were a regular thing. Did Stalin do it?


4. I hope you do know that before WW2 ended the US accepted scores of German Nazis, including those from Nazi propaganda department? They were helping Americans organise their propaganda work of the Cold War period.

Well, "Hearst's relationship with the Nazis in 1934 is of critical importance in understanding a major element of American anti-Communist propaganda. In 1934 Hearst published a number of stories about the 1932-1933 famine in Ukraine. Nazi Germany had been waging a major anti-Communist propaganda campaign as part of its agenda, fascism being the "sworn enemy" or communism.

As part of this larger propaganda campaign the German Ministry of Propaganda created a story about a Soviet program of genocide in Ukraine. This was all part of the larger German plans to not only put down Communist support in Germany, but justify later invasions to the east under the banner of "liberation."

The Germans manufactured stories about the famine in Ukraine and used false photographs to depict the famine conditions as worse than they really were, including pictures from a 1920-22 famine in Russia during the Russian Civil War and pictures of famine conditions during World War I of regions that were not even Russian.

The Germans wanted to expand this propaganda campaign against the USSR to potential rival states which it hoped to build support in, such as the United States and Britain. This is where Hearst came in.

Hearst's role for the Nazis was to try and build Nazi sympathy in America, which was to be achieved by both portraying Nazi Germany in a good light, as well as portraying Germany's primary target, the Soviet Union, and Communism in general, in an exaggeratedly negative light.

Hearst picked up the Ukraine famine story in 1934, about a year after the famine actually took place. In a press like the Hearst Press everything relied on "breaking news." Had Hearst had a real interest in covering the Ukraine famine it would have been covered in 1932 and 1933 when it was taking place, however it was not covered in Hearst presses until 1934, after he picked up the story for the Nazis.

Hearst's Ukraine famine stories have proven to have had a huge impact among Americans, and even today the majority of Americans believe that there actually was a "Ukraine Holocaust." Common figures are that 6 million people died in Ukraine under Stalin's rule in what was an intentional starving to death of these millions of people. This 6 million figure is in fact a pure fabrication of Nazi propaganda. The idea that Ukrainians were intentionally starved to death is likewise a product of Nazi propaganda, picked up by Hearst and spread to the United States, where it was accepted at truth, and for the most part still is today. 

For more on the Ukrainian famine and the role of the Hearst Press in creating the myth of a Ukrainian genocide see: "Fraud, Famine and Fascism: The Ukrainian Genocide Myth from Hitler to Harvard".

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...h7Rc4i9R6kfYa-zlw&sig2=t_SIXtLh-Lh71zjkWeHtkQ


----------



## 52ndStreet (Oct 25, 2012)

mememe said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > > during Stalin times they were tried for their crimes.
> ...



Yes , America acceptance of German Nazi was due to the need to replicate German V2
rocket technology, and other German advances in science and technology. Verner Von Braun helped to build the America NASA rocket technology.

The German propoganda aspect was used very effectively also by the U.S. millitary.
Communism was gaining to much influence in the world. It still is today. It must be 
stopped.World democracy is at risk.Capitalism is at risk.


----------



## mememe (Oct 25, 2012)

52ndStreet said:


> Yes , America acceptance of German Nazi was due to the need to replicate German V2
> rocket technology, and other German advances in science and technology. Verner Von Braun helped to build the America NASA rocket technology.
> 
> The German propoganda aspect was used very effectively also by the U.S. millitary.
> ...



Dr Goebbelse had nothing to do with "rocket technology".

And you missed the point, which is unforgivable for a journalist: your knowledge about famine in the USSR in 1930-s comes from Dr Goebbelse department.

Can you, please, answer my questions?

1. Famine of 1930-s was rife throughout Europe, Africa and N. America. Did Stalin do it?

2. Are you even aware that famine of 1930-s in the USSR was not confined to Ukrainian SSR?

3. Are you aware that "Ukraine" as a separate from the rest of Russia republic was created by Bolsheviks; and "Ukrainians" as an ethnicity separate from the rest of Russians was also created by Bolsheviks by simply writing all those born in Malorussia as "Ukrainians" into 1922 census? So why would Stalin create something and then "starve it to death"? 

...........

5. Prior to 1930-s famines were a regular thing. Did Stalin do it?


----------



## 52ndStreet (Oct 25, 2012)

mememe said:


> 52ndStreet said:
> 
> 
> > Yes , America acceptance of German Nazi was due to the need to replicate German V2
> ...



Stalin murdered as many people as Hitler, or maybe more. He knew Hitler wanted to exterminate as many communist Russinas as possible. These were Russians of various ethnick groups who he did not like , or who Stalin saw as a threat to him maintaining his 
power.This man Stalin did not even like his own mother. Stalin and Lennin were both
mass murderers. This is historical fact. 

Yes , Stalin could have fed those starving people , but did nothing to save them.
He was part of the famine conspiracy in Russia during the 1930's.!!
Communism is an evil system with no morals , or rights or wrongs, anything goes with Communis.!
Its a Satanic political system!!


----------



## mememe (Oct 25, 2012)

52ndStreet said:


> .
> Communism was gaining to much influence in the world. It still is today. It must be
> stopped.World democracy is at risk.Capitalism is at risk.



Again, you are spouting cliches without thinking!

1. What is "democracy" in its most basic definition? Its what the MAJORITY of the population want for themselves!

2. By your admission, communist ideas were very popular in the aftermath of the victory over Nazism and Fascism. It means, the majority of the population of many countries were supporting their communist and socialist parties.

3. But in your opinion, the will of the majority had to be crushed in the name of ....... DEMOCRACY??????? ...........!!!!!!!!!!!

Or maybe the will of the majority of the population of many countries of US/UK sphere of influence had to be crushed in the name of preserving the interests of corporations and financial clans?!


----------



## 52ndStreet (Oct 25, 2012)

mememe said:


> 52ndStreet said:
> 
> 
> > .
> ...



The Communist were becoming a threat to the existence of American Democracy and Capitalism. The Communist must be placed in Check.


----------



## mememe (Oct 25, 2012)

52ndStreet said:


> Stalin murdered as many people as Hitler, or maybe more.
> 
> Yes , Stalin could have fed those starving people , but did nothing to save them.
> !



Again, I hear mantras.

This is not true. Central Soviet government was helping affected by famine regions.

As for who could've "fed those starving people", what about Poland, Romania, Slovakia, US, etc., etc., etc. Why were they not "feeding those starving people" on their respective territories? Did Stalin stop them?

In Poland, for example, state was using military to execute starving peasants if they dared to rebel! 
Why are you not demonstrating your indignation about that fact?!


And PLEASE, answer my questions:

1. Famine of 1930-s was rife throughout Europe, Africa and N. America. Did Stalin do it?

2. Are you even aware that famine of 1930-s in the USSR was not confined to Ukrainian SSR?

3. Are you aware that "Ukraine" as a separate from the rest of Russia republic was created by Bolsheviks; and "Ukrainians" as an ethnicity separate from the rest of Russians was also created by Bolsheviks by simply writing all those born in Malorussia as "Ukrainians" into 1922 census? So why would Stalin create something and then "starve it to death"? 

...........

5. Prior to 1930-s famines were a regular thing. Did Stalin do it?


----------



## mememe (Oct 25, 2012)

52ndStreet said:


> The Communist were becoming a threat to the existence of American Democracy and Capitalism. The Communist must be placed in Check.



Do you hear yourself?

Democracy -- is first and foremost what the majority of the POPULATION want for themselves!
If that majority supported communist/socialist ideas, then that was "democracy"!

Not the will of American corporations and financial clans, but the will of majority of the population!


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## 52ndStreet (Oct 25, 2012)

mememe said:


> 52ndStreet said:
> 
> 
> > Stalin murdered as many people as Hitler, or maybe more.
> ...



The Communist system is evil, it approves of the mass murder of people for it to be 
installed as a political system. Lennin , and Stalin both murdered  many innocent people 
as they gained power in Czarist Russia. The Communist has no morals, no religeon,
they have no beleif in God. Therefore they fell they can do anything they want to do, because there will be not a God to punish them. I will never accept a Communist or
a Communist system of government.!!


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## mememe (Oct 25, 2012)

52ndStreet said:


> The Communist system is evil,
> 
> 1. it approves of the mass murder of people for it to be installed as a political system.
> 
> ...



Yet another mantra...

1. May I see the source of that statement? 
Also, remind me what countries supported the rise of Hitler to power? What country supported Hitler until 1944? What countries engaged in mass slaughter in Vietnam, Granada, scores of African countries, Yugoslavia, Serbia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria?

2. a) name a single country where a revolution or a civil war were bloodless.
b) US and UK financed Lenin and Trotsky.
c) how do you define "innocent victims" during revolutions and civil wars? For example, how many innocent people were killed in a course of US wars for independence and a civil war?

3. By what morals US supported Hitler until 1944? By what morals US, UK, France murder people en-mass in Serbia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria? 
By what religion US, UK, France, Germany, Sweden, etc. insist on Christian churches accepting pederasts as priests and conduct church weddings of pederasts? By what religion US, UK, France, Germany, Sweden, etc. destroy the institution of family? By what religion US, UK, France, Germany, Sweden, etc. conduct mass murder of people in other countries?

And now, answer my other questions:

1. Famine of 1930-s was rife throughout Europe, Africa and N. America. Did Stalin do it?

2. Are you even aware that famine of 1930-s in the USSR was not confined to Ukrainian SSR?

3. Are you aware that "Ukraine" as a separate from the rest of Russia republic was created by Bolsheviks; and "Ukrainians" as an ethnicity separate from the rest of Russians was also created by Bolsheviks by simply writing all those born in Malorussia as "Ukrainians" into 1922 census? So why would Stalin create something and then "starve it to death"? 

...........

5. Prior to 1930-s famines were a regular thing. Did Stalin do it?


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## 52ndStreet (Oct 25, 2012)

mememe said:


> 52ndStreet said:
> 
> 
> > The Communist system is evil,
> ...



Yes , they are American Capitalist mass murderers also. But the communist seem to have ,
and continue to this day to slaughter more people on an ongoing basis.
Communism preaches no morals ideology.


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## mememe (Oct 25, 2012)

52ndStreet said:


> Yes , they are American Capitalist mass murderers also.
> 
> But the communist seem to have, and continue to this day to slaughter more people on an ongoing basis.
> .



You did not serve me with the source for your statement "mass murder of people ... installed as a political system" of socialist countries. I conclude that you have nothing to support that statement.

Not "also". But PRIMARILY capitalist countries engage in mass slaughter and looting of other nations. It's in keeping with the very essence of capitalist system.

says who? Western establishment + media? Remind me, what countries destroyed Yugoalavia, Serbia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and are now engaged in Syria?


Can you also answer my previous questions:
2. a) name a single country where a revolution or a civil war were bloodless.
b) US and UK financed Lenin and Trotsky.
c) how do you define "innocent victims" during revolutions and civil wars? For example, how many innocent people were killed in a course of US wars for independence and a civil war?

3. By what morals US supported Hitler until 1944? By what morals US, UK, France murder people en-mass in Serbia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria? 
By what religion US, UK, France, Germany, Sweden, etc. insist on Christian churches accepting pederasts as priests and conduct church weddings of pederasts? By what religion US, UK, France, Germany, Sweden, etc. destroy the institution of family? By what religion US, UK, France, Germany, Sweden, etc. conduct mass murder of people in other countries?



1. Famine of 1930-s was rife throughout Europe, Africa and N. America. Did Stalin do it?

2. Are you even aware that famine of 1930-s in the USSR was not confined to Ukrainian SSR?

3. Are you aware that "Ukraine" as a separate from the rest of Russia republic was created by Bolsheviks; and "Ukrainians" as an ethnicity separate from the rest of Russians was also created by Bolsheviks by simply writing all those born in Malorussia as "Ukrainians" into 1922 census? So why would Stalin create something and then "starve it to death"? 

...........

5. Prior to 1930-s famines were a regular thing. Did Stalin do it?


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## 52ndStreet (Oct 25, 2012)

mememe said:


> 52ndStreet said:
> 
> 
> > Yes , they are American Capitalist mass murderers also.
> ...



The Communist systems creator Carl Marx preaches this in his book, and the Russian Philosopher Niestche preaches this in his works.


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## mememe (Oct 25, 2012)

52ndStreet said:


> The Communist systems creator Carl Marx preaches this in his book, and the Russian Philosopher Niestche preaches this in his works.



1. He wrote more then one book. So, can I have the title and at least an indication to a relevant page or a chapter?

2. Did Niestche know he was a RUSSIAN philosopher? 

3. Are you aware that current Western liberal establishments follow Trotsky agenda, and Trotsky was Marxist?


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## 52ndStreet (Oct 26, 2012)

mememe said:


> 52ndStreet said:
> 
> 
> > The Communist systems creator Carl Marx preaches this in his book, and the Russian Philosopher Niestche preaches this in his works.
> ...



Niestche, and Marx , supported a philosophy of anything goes, and that you are your own God. I read this with my own eyes.


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## mememe (Oct 26, 2012)

52ndStreet said:


> Niestche, and Marx , supported a philosophy of anything goes, and that you are your own God. I read this with my own eyes.



Did you manage to figure out whose philosopher was Niestche? 

There is no philosophy of "anything goes", unless American life choice can be classed as "philosophy". 
Have you even read anything of Marx or Niestche? If "yes", what was it?


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## 52ndStreet (Oct 26, 2012)

mememe said:


> 52ndStreet said:
> 
> 
> > Niestche, and Marx , supported a philosophy of anything goes, and that you are your own God. I read this with my own eyes.
> ...



Carl Marx "The Communist Manifesto" , and Freidrich Nietzsche "Beyound Good and Evil"
These are the authors, and I have given you the title of the two books.
They preach anything goes.


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## Unkotare (Oct 26, 2012)

Watching the two of you try to discuss philosophy is pretty hilarious.


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## mememe (Oct 26, 2012)

52ndStreet said:


> Carl Marx "The Communist Manifesto" , and Freidrich Nietzsche "Beyound Good and Evil"
> These are the authors, and I have given you the title of the two books.
> They preach anything goes.



After your "They preach anything goes" you want anyone to believe that you read their works past the titles???!!!

Go away...


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## mememe (Oct 26, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> Watching the two of you try to discuss philosophy is pretty hilarious.



We are discussing philosophy? Where? 

Go, find the definition of "philosophy" in a dictionary.


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## Unkotare (Oct 27, 2012)

Keep dancing, clowns.


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## 52ndStreet (Oct 27, 2012)

mememe said:


> 52ndStreet said:
> 
> 
> > Carl Marx "The Communist Manifesto" , and Freidrich Nietzsche "Beyound Good and Evil"
> ...



Your statement is irrelevent, the fact still remains  that the  authors  do  preach a philosophy of anything goes.


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## mememe (Oct 31, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> Keep dancing, clowns.



The only world-class clowns dancing are Americans. And you know what makes you so hilarious? Your impenetrable stupidity coupled with your genuine conviction of your greatness.


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## mememe (Oct 31, 2012)

52ndStreet said:


> mememe said:
> 
> 
> > 52ndStreet said:
> ...



Statement?!

I did not STATE anything! I simply caught you on a lie, that's all...


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## 52ndStreet (Nov 8, 2012)

mememe said:


> 52ndStreet said:
> 
> 
> > mememe said:
> ...



Communist system, and people are all brainwashed by their government.
The citizens are all prisoners of the state. Can not travel, Communist government 
controls all aspects of their lives. One big prison is what Russia , and Cuba are.!
The peopls living in Russia and Cuba are all prisoners.!!


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## Unkotare (Nov 9, 2012)

mememe said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Keep dancing, clowns.
> ...




Where did you say you were from, idiot?


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## Unkotare (Nov 9, 2012)

52ndStreet said:


> mememe said:
> 
> 
> > 52ndStreet said:
> ...



And your racism is one big prison that you choose to live in all your life. Pretty sad. Of course, racism is ridiculously extreme in Russia as well as in your little mind.


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