# Revisionist History...America is not founded upon Christian values



## AllieBaba

Despite the words of the FF to the contrary, despite the fact that almost every state constitution refers to God, despite the fact that our Declaration refers to God, the revisionists want to say that we were not founded upon Christian values.

They apparently think that if we acknowledge that fact, it makes us a theocracy. Of course it doesn't, that's ridiculous. But this is the standard for the brain washed loons.

Anyway, we were founded upon Christian principles, and no, that does not make us a theocracy nor does it mean the FF wanted a theocracy (they most certainly did not). Unfortunately, the left has issues with the language and with truth in general, so I don't think they will every be able to conceptualize this.

Interesting:

"There are several issues on which I refuse to compromise, but when it comes to discussing the details of government budgets or even immigration and the War in Iraq, I am hardly offended when someone disagrees with me. In fact, I often thoroughly enjoy such conversations, provided I am dealing with someone who is intellectually honest. However, the kind of blatant revisionism in question is beyond irritating; indeed, it is representative of intellectual dishonesty at its absolute worst. 

"
Consider, for example, the words of Adams himself. In one of several letters to Thomas Jefferson, as Adams and Jefferson reminisced about Americas fight for independence and the signing of the Declaration of Independence, Adams wrote:
The general Principles, on which the Fathers Atchieved [sic] Independence, were the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite . . . . And what were these general Principles? *I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all those Sects were United: And the general Principles of English and American Liberty, in which all those young Men United, and which had United all Parties in America, in Majorities sufficient to assert and maintain her Independence. Now I will avow, that I then believed, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God; and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System*."
Three Conservatives - America&#8217;s Christian Heritage Debunked?​


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## AllieBaba

"
For some brief clarification: the Treaty of Tripoli became necessary due to the United States&#8217; problems with the Barbary Pirates (Islamic pirates who operated primarily out of portions of Northern Africa). The pirates preyed on ships in the region, in addition to kidnapping Christians for the purposes of trading them as slaves. Initially, the United States chose the path of least resistance, paying tribute to the pirates in exchange for safe passage. Early on, we were very dedicated to using this form of &#8220;diplomacy&#8221; to address the situation, as our navy was still fairly weak. As an indication of just how much we were willing to pay, it is said that, &#8220;by the time Thomas Jefferson became president, the United States had paid sponsoring rogue nations a sum exceeding 20 percent of its annual tax revenue.&#8221;
Because much of the reasoning behind the pirates&#8217; actions revolved around their hatred of Christians, particularly those involved in the Crusades, the United States stood to benefit greatly from successfully convincing the pirates that we were not an officially Christian nation and, moreover, that the Christianity practiced in America differed greatly from that of the European Christians with whom the pirates were particularly antagonistic. Thus, the semicolon in Article 11 becomes very important, as the words render something to the effect of:
As the United States&#8217; government does not officially sanction Christianity, insomuch as we have no specific hatred toward Islam and have never taken any aggressive action toward an Islamic nation, it is agreed that there is no religious pretext for war between the two parties.
In addition to our obvious desire to peacefully resolve the dispute with the Barbary pirates, my premise is further backed up by the fact that even Adams clearly viewed the conflict as a clash of religious ideals. As he wrote to Thomas Jefferson:
The policy of Christendom has made cowards of all their sailors before the standard of Mahomet. It would be heroical and glorious in us to restore courage to ours.
One must also consider the wording of other documents from the Barbary conflicts, including both the truce and treaty with Tunis. The truce includes the following wording:
The glory of the princes of the Christian nation, the selected chief among the community of Jesus, Washington, the present ruler of America-may his days end with blessings-being desirous and wishing to negotiate a treaty of peace in order to lay the foundations of friendship and to strengthen the sincere amity with the frontier post of the Holy War, the victorious garrison of Tunis the well-preserved, just as our friends, the other Christian Governments, have done the same with our victorious garrison, has confided the negotiations of the said treaty to his Consul Barlow, residing in Algiers, and the said Consul again teas confided the negotiations of the treaty to the French merchant, Joseph Famin, residing in Tunis the well-preserved.​In the treaty with Tunis, the following wording is included:
&#8230;and the most distinguished and honored President of the Congress of the United States of America, the most distinguished among those who profess the religion of the Messiah, of whom may the end be happy.​Both the truce and treaty with Tunis were part of the same conflict and both were enacted shortly after the Treaty with Tripoli.
In the end, it seems that article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli is misunderstood, misrepresented, and abused. "

Three Conservatives - America&#8217;s Christian Heritage Debunked?


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## rightwinger

Where does the Constitution mention Christ?


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## AllieBaba

Red herring. Nobody said the Constitution mentioned Christ.

Next.


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## Liberty

I guess the question is: What is wrong with Christian values? Peace, love, turn the other cheek, help your neighbor, etc.


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## ABikerSailor

If we're supposed to be a Christian country, founded on Christian values, why allow freedom of religion?


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## ABikerSailor

Liberty said:


> I guess the question is: What is wrong with Christian values? Peace, love, turn the other cheek, help your neighbor, etc.



Yeah......but many "Christians" today either spin, twist or warp the words of the Bible, and in doing so, warp the values as well.

By the way.........Rush LimpIdiot is a good example of that.  The other day he asked "what would Jesus TAKE".



> In his "Rewrite" segment last night, MSNBC's "Last Word" host Lawrence O'Donnell pounded out a 9-minute-long sermonette against conservative radio host Rush Limbaugh.
> 
> O'Donnell slammed Limbaugh as biblically illiterate, reacting to a monologue from his April 25 program in which Limbaugh complained about liberals co-opting Jesus Christ for political purposes in the federal budget debate, posing questions such as "What Would Jesus Cut" from the budget.
> 
> "What would Jesus take?" Limbaugh countered, answering "nothing." O'Donnell vehemently disagreed, going on to cite Scripture references -- divorcing them from context -- in order to argue Jesus was a fan of "progressive taxation," among other things.
> 
> 
> 
> Read more: MSNBC&#039;s O&#039;Donnell Slams Limbaugh As Biblically Ignorant; Contorts Scripture to Paint Jesus As Socialist | NewsBusters.org



MSNBC&#039;s O&#039;Donnell Slams Limbaugh As Biblically Ignorant; Contorts Scripture to Paint Jesus As Socialist | NewsBusters.org

With people like that speaking for the GOP, it's easy to see how the message gets twisted.


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## Liberty

You can twist whatever you want, those are still the real Christian values though.


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## ABikerSailor

Liberty said:


> You can twist whatever you want, those are still the real Christian values though.



Then why is it that so few actually DO them as they are originally stated?


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## Liberty

ABikerSailor said:


> Liberty said:
> 
> 
> 
> You can twist whatever you want, those are still the real Christian values though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then why is it that so few actually DO them as they are originally stated?
Click to expand...


Because they contradict human nature and it takes effort. Even I don't live by them but I wish I did.


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## ABikerSailor

Liberty said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Liberty said:
> 
> 
> 
> You can twist whatever you want, those are still the real Christian values though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then why is it that so few actually DO them as they are originally stated?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because they contradict human nature and it takes effort. Even I don't live by them but I wish I did.
Click to expand...


Interestingly enough, I generally follow them because they're good ideas.  If you always tell the truth, you don't have to remember the lies.  If you don't commit adultery, you don't end up in trouble.

If you always tell the truth (even when you don't want to), you end up being respected.

Sounds easier to live by them rather than come up with excuses like human nature to compensate for your failures.

I figured it out when I was 31, with the help of some very good mentors.


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## rightwinger

AllieBaba said:


> Red herring. Nobody said the Constitution mentioned Christ.
> 
> Next.



God is not Christ.  To be founded as a Christian nation our documents would say "Lord" or "Christ" or "Jesus" they refer to a generic God which does not invoke Christianity

The values you speak of are Jewish and not Christian


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## AllieBaba

Fuck off you disingenuous tard.

That is completely irrelevant.


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## rightwinger

AllieBaba said:


> Fuck off you disingenuous tard.
> 
> That is completely irrelevant.



You have no concept of what you are talking about. How is using the word "God" in any way Christian?

Your ignorance is appalling.

Are you actually that thick that you think Christians are the only ones with values?

You are really a pathetic excuse for a Christian


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## AllieBaba

Yeah. Anyway. Your opinion of what constitutes Christianity is a completely different topic. But just for the record, let it show that Christians believe that God & Christ are Father and Son, with the Holy Spirit they are God, separate and yet one. Not that it matters. We all know the FF were referring to the Christian God.


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## rightwinger

AllieBaba said:


> Yeah. Anyway. Your opinion of what constitutes Christianity is a completely different topic. But just for the record, let it show that Christians believe that God & Christ are Father and Son, with the Holy Spirit they are God, separate and yet one. Not that it matters. We all know the FF were referring to the Christian God.



Anyone with the slightest understanding of US history knows they are intentionally NOT talking about a Christian God


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## AllieBaba

Uh..ok.


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## ogibillm

what uniquely christian values were we founded upon?


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## AllieBaba

Who said anything about *uniquely*?

The founding fathers founded this country using Christian values.

Is someone going to deny that they said that's what they were doing?

And will someone please explain why we should brand them as liars for doing so?


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## rightwinger

AllieBaba said:


> Who said anything about *uniquely*?
> 
> The founding fathers founded this country using Christian values.
> 
> Is someone going to deny that they said that's what they were doing?
> 
> And will someone please explain why we should brand them as liars for doing so?



Values that EVERY major religion had in common?


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## ogibillm

AllieBaba said:


> Who said anything about *uniquely*?
> 
> The founding fathers founded this country using Christian values.
> 
> Is someone going to deny that they said that's what they were doing?
> 
> And will someone please explain why we should brand them as liars for doing so?



okay... so they founded the country based on some ideals found in Christianity and other philosophies and some that were not to be found in Christianity.

in what way do you find this to be relevant? what would saying that they founded the country on Christian ideals mean to us today when those ideals predate and Christianity and are found throughout western civilization and the world over?


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## AllieBaba

It doesn't matter what YOU think about the origins of the tenets. Your opinion is meaningless with regards to whether or not the country was founded with Christian tenets.

All that matters is what the framers themselves said and believed. And they said and believed that they were founding the country on their understanding of Christianity and a Christian God.

YOu can say "wait a minute, those aren't REALLY Christian tenets because Plato, and Mohommed, and Ringo the Elephant all hold those same beliefs as well" and that might be true...but it doesn't change the fact that THESE particular men founded THIS particular country on principles they pulled from the BIBLE. We know because they said so.


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## ogibillm

AllieBaba said:


> It doesn't matter what YOU think about the origins of the tenets. Your opinion is meaningless with regards to whether or not the country was founded with Christian tenets.
> 
> All that matters is what the framers themselves said and believed. And they said and believed that they were founding the country on their understanding of Christianity and a Christian God.
> 
> YOu can say "wait a minute, those aren't REALLY Christian tenets because Plato, and Mohommed, and Ringo the Elephant all hold those same beliefs as well" and that might be true...but it doesn't change the fact that THESE particular men founded THIS particular country on principles they pulled from the BIBLE. We know because they said so.



i can see that you're passionate about the issue - i'm assuming that's for a reason. 

supposing you're right - what would you have us do with that knowledge? what implications do you believe it has?


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## mudwhistle

rightwinger said:


> Where does the Constitution mention Christ?





> "Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven". The Lord in this phrase is, of course, Christ.



You asked.


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## Flopper

AllieBaba said:


> Despite the words of the FF to the contrary, despite the fact that almost every state constitution refers to God, despite the fact that our Declaration refers to God, the revisionists want to say that we were not founded upon Christian values.



Jews and Muslims believe that God and Christ are separate entities as do a number of religions.  The use of word God does not mean Christ. Only Christians believe Christ is God.   God as used in the federal and state constitutions is referring to a supreme being, the Christian God, Jehovah, or Allah.

If the country was being founded as a Christian nation, don't you think the founders  would mentioned Christ in the Constitution or at least the Declaration of Independence.

When you say Christian values, many of those values are shared by many religions.


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## AllieBaba

Er..ok.

Let's just disregard what the founding fathers said they were doing and go off on some flap about how all values are Christian values, and the fact that they SAID what they were founding it on means nothing.

Good plan.

Relativist morons.


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## rightwinger

mudwhistle said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where does the Constitution mention Christ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven". The Lord in this phrase is, of course, Christ.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You asked.
Click to expand...


LOL........"Year of our Lord" means we were founded as a Christian nation?


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## rightwinger

AllieBaba said:


> Er..ok.
> 
> Let's just disregard what the founding fathers said they were doing and go off on some flap about how all values are Christian values, and the fact that they SAID what they were founding it on means nothing.
> 
> Good plan.
> 
> Relativist morons.



If their intent was to form a Christian Nation, they would have specifically mentioned Christ. They specifically made it clear that there would be no state recognized religion


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## mudwhistle

rightwinger said:


> mudwhistle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where does the Constitution mention Christ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven". The Lord in this phrase is, of course, Christ.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You asked.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> LOL........"Year of our Lord" means we were founded as a Christian nation?
Click to expand...


You asked where does the Constitution mention Christ......nothing more. 

Of course there is an implication they were mindful of Jesus when they wrote it. 

We don't use that phrase much these days, but it was important enough to them to put in in there.


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## AllieBaba

rightwinger said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> 
> Er..ok.
> 
> Let's just disregard what the founding fathers said they were doing and go off on some flap about how all values are Christian values, and the fact that they SAID what they were founding it on means nothing.
> 
> Good plan.
> 
> Relativist morons.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If their intent was to form a Christian Nation, they would have specifically mentioned Christ. They specifically made it clear that there would be no state recognized religion
Click to expand...

Which has zero to do with whether or not the country was founded on Chrsitian principle.

And "if their intent was to..blah blah .. they would have blah...blah..." is completely worthless. You have no idea what they would have. It's just surmising based on your own small mindedness.

"Finally, let us not forget the religious character of our origin. Our fathers were brought hither by their high veneration for the Christian religion. They journeyed by its light, and labored in its hope. They sought to incorporate its principles with the elements of their society, and to diffuse its influence through all their institutions, civil, political, or literary."
Daniel Webster


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## AllieBaba

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."
Patrick Henry


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## ABikerSailor

mudwhistle said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where does the Constitution mention Christ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven". The Lord in this phrase is, of course, Christ.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You asked.
Click to expand...


Really?

Actually, it was a common reference in the day.


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## rightwinger

AllieBaba said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> 
> Er..ok.
> 
> Let's just disregard what the founding fathers said they were doing and go off on some flap about how all values are Christian values, and the fact that they SAID what they were founding it on means nothing.
> 
> Good plan.
> 
> Relativist morons.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If their intent was to form a Christian Nation, they would have specifically mentioned Christ. They specifically made it clear that there would be no state recognized religion
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Which has zero to do with whether or not the country was founded on Chrsitian principle.
> 
> And "if their intent was to..blah blah .. they would have blah...blah..." is completely worthless. You have no idea what they would have. It's just surmising based on your own small mindedness.
> 
> "Finally, let us not forget the religious character of our origin. Our fathers were brought hither by their high veneration for the Christian religion. They journeyed by its light, and labored in its hope. They sought to incorporate its principles with the elements of their society, and to diffuse its influence through all their institutions, civil, political, or literary."
> Daniel Webster
Click to expand...


Daniel Webster was not born when the country was founded. He is voicing a Christian biased opinion, just like you. He is also wrong is assigning a "high veneration of the Christian religion" many of the key founding fathers were deists


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## AllieBaba

So what? It's a valid opinion I felt like posting.


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## AllieBaba

Lincoln wasn't a founding father, either. But he was of the opinion that we are a Christian nation, as well.

But if YOU SAY SO I guess your esteemed opinion trumps the statements of the founding fathers, the supreme court, Lincoln and Webster.

Cuz we all know you are so knowledgeable, and full of integrity!


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## rightwinger

Deism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Deism in the philosophy of religion is the standpoint that reason and observation of the natural world, without the need for organized religion, can determine that a supreme being created the universe. 

In the United States, Enlightenment philosophy (which itself was heavily inspired by deist ideals) played a major role in creating the principle of religious freedom, expressed in Thomas Jefferson's letters, and the principle of religious freedom expressed in the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. American Founding Fathers, or Framers of the Constitution, who were especially noted for being influenced by such philosophy include Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Cornelius Harnett, Gouverneur Morris, and Hugh Williamson. Their political speeches show distinct deistic influence.

Other notable Founding Fathers may have been more directly deist. These include James Madison, possibly Alexander Hamilton, Ethan Allen, and Thomas Paine (who published The Age of Reason, a treatise that helped to popularize deism throughout America and Europe).


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## AllieBaba

I know what deism is. 

It has nothing to do with whether or not the country was founded upon Christian values. Again, we have the words of the founders to go on, and they stated, repeatedly, they were structuring the country using Christian values, with an eye to God, and with the understanding that Americans are primarily Christian.


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## peach174

The very first congress ordered the printing of Bibles to be taught in the schools.
The Bible was taught in our schools from the beginning of the nation, until Madeline Murray O'Hair took it to the courts because she thought it was unconstitutional.
Our founding fathers and 1st continental congress probably rolled in their graves when this ruling came out. They all said that in order for our nation to work the way it was set up that your had to have Christian values in order for it to work.

American Thinker: The Judeo-Christian Values of America


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## rightwinger

peach174 said:


> The very first congress ordered the printing of Bibles to be taught in the schools.*
> The Bible was taught in our schools from the beginning of the nation*, until Madeline Murray O'Hair took it to the courts because she thought it was unconstitutional.
> Our founding fathers and 1st continental congress probably rolled in their graves when this ruling came out. They all said that in order for our nation to work the way it was set up that your had to have Christian values in order for it to work.
> 
> American Thinker: The Judeo-Christian Values of America



Do you agree the Koran should be taught in our schools?
Should Jewish teachers be able to teach that Jesus is not the son of God?
Should atheist teachers be able to teach children that there is no God?


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## peach174

rightwinger said:


> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The very first congress ordered the printing of Bibles to be taught in the schools.*
> The Bible was taught in our schools from the beginning of the nation*, until Madeline Murray O'Hair took it to the courts because she thought it was unconstitutional.
> Our founding fathers and 1st continental congress probably rolled in their graves when this ruling came out. They all said that in order for our nation to work the way it was set up that your had to have Christian values in order for it to work.
> 
> American Thinker: The Judeo-Christian Values of America
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you agree the Koran should be taught in our schools?
> Should Jewish teachers be able to teach that Jesus is not the son of God?
> Should atheist teachers be able to teach children that there is no God?
Click to expand...


You think that we did not have Muslims, Jews and atheists at the founding of our nation?
We did, but they agreed that in order for them to have those religious freedoms , that Christianity was the root of this nation. That there is a connection between God and Liberty.
Our political philosophy of majority rules over the minority is why they did not teach the other religions, but you had to freedom to worship the way you wanted to or not at all.
This was freedom for all. Now because of O'Hair, Christian's no longer have freedom and have been attacked ever since.


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## AllieBaba

rightwinger said:


> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The very first congress ordered the printing of Bibles to be taught in the schools.
> *The Bible was taught in our schools from the beginning of the nation*, until Madeline Murray O'Hair took it to the courts because she thought it was unconstitutional.
> Our founding fathers and 1st continental congress probably rolled in their graves when this ruling came out. They all said that in order for our nation to work the way it was set up that your had to have Christian values in order for it to work.
> 
> American Thinker: The Judeo-Christian Values of America
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you agree the Koran should be taught in our schools?
> Should Jewish teachers be able to teach that Jesus is not the son of God?
> Should atheist teachers be able to teach children that there is no God?
Click to expand...

 
When did we start arguing about whether or not religion should be taught in school?

Off topic.


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## rightwinger

peach174 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The very first congress ordered the printing of Bibles to be taught in the schools.*
> The Bible was taught in our schools from the beginning of the nation*, until Madeline Murray O'Hair took it to the courts because she thought it was unconstitutional.
> Our founding fathers and 1st continental congress probably rolled in their graves when this ruling came out. They all said that in order for our nation to work the way it was set up that your had to have Christian values in order for it to work.
> 
> American Thinker: The Judeo-Christian Values of America
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you agree the Koran should be taught in our schools?
> Should Jewish teachers be able to teach that Jesus is not the son of God?
> Should atheist teachers be able to teach children that there is no God?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You think that we did not have Muslims, Jews and atheists at the founding of our nation?
> We did, *but they agreed that in order for them to have those religious freedoms , that Christianity was the root of this nation*. That there is a connection between God and Liberty.
> Our political philosophy of majority rules over the minority is why they did not teach the other religions, but you had to freedom to worship the way you wanted to or not at all.
> This was freedom for all. Now because of O'Hair, Christian's no longer have freedom and have been attacked ever since.
Click to expand...


Oh ...I understand now

Religion is majority rules in this country. Our founding fathers decided that we would have a vote on which religion would be taught in our schools

That must have been in that history that Madeline Murray O'Hair had covered up


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## Flopper

The Torah and the Old Testament had far more influence on the Constitution and Declaration of Independence than Christ's teaching. 

Jewish Roots of the American Constitution « The State of America


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## rightwinger

Flopper said:


> The Torah and the Old Testament had far more influence on the Constitution and Declaration of Independence than Christ's teaching.
> 
> Jewish Roots of the American Constitution « The State of America



So this proves that America was founded on Jewish values

Thanks for clarifying


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## peach174

Flopper said:


> The Torah and the Old Testament had far more influence on the Constitution and Declaration of Independence than Christ's teaching.
> 
> Jewish Roots of the American Constitution « The State of America



The old testament is the torah


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## peach174

rightwinger said:


> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you agree the Koran should be taught in our schools?
> Should Jewish teachers be able to teach that Jesus is not the son of God?
> Should atheist teachers be able to teach children that there is no God?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You think that we did not have Muslims, Jews and atheists at the founding of our nation?
> We did, *but they agreed that in order for them to have those religious freedoms , that Christianity was the root of this nation*. That there is a connection between God and Liberty.
> Our political philosophy of majority rules over the minority is why they did not teach the other religions, but you had to freedom to worship the way you wanted to or not at all.
> This was freedom for all. Now because of O'Hair, Christian's no longer have freedom and have been attacked ever since.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh ...I understand now
> 
> Religion is majority rules in this country. Our founding fathers decided that we would have a vote on which religion would be taught in our schools
> 
> That must have been in that history that Madeline Murray O'Hair had covered up
Click to expand...


Well I see that what I said went over your head. That is not what I said at all.


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## ABikerSailor

peach174 said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Torah and the Old Testament had far more influence on the Constitution and Declaration of Independence than Christ's teaching.
> 
> Jewish Roots of the American Constitution « The State of America
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The old testament is the torah
Click to expand...


Wrong.........the Torah is the first 5 books of the Bible.  The rest of the OT is a history of the Jewish people.


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## peach174

ABikerSailor said:


> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Torah and the Old Testament had far more influence on the Constitution and Declaration of Independence than Christ's teaching.
> 
> Jewish Roots of the American Constitution « The State of America
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The old testament is the torah
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wrong.........the Torah is the first 5 books of the Bible.  The rest of the OT is a history of the Jewish people.
Click to expand...


The Torah is the first 5 books of Moses and the tanakh is the hebrew bible. Which is what the old testeamnet is.


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## AllieBaba

ABikerSailor said:


> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Torah and the Old Testament had far more influence on the Constitution and Declaration of Independence than Christ's teaching.
> 
> Jewish Roots of the American Constitution « The State of America
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The old testament is the torah
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wrong.........the Torah is the first 5 books of the Bible. The rest of the OT is a history of the Jewish people.
Click to expand...

 
I thought the first 5 books were called the Petrarch?

I think? Something like that?


----------



## AllieBaba

peach174 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You think that we did not have Muslims, Jews and atheists at the founding of our nation?
> We did, *but they agreed that in order for them to have those religious freedoms , that Christianity was the root of this nation*. That there is a connection between God and Liberty.
> Our political philosophy of majority rules over the minority is why they did not teach the other religions, but you had to freedom to worship the way you wanted to or not at all.
> This was freedom for all. Now because of O'Hair, Christian's no longer have freedom and have been attacked ever since.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh ...I understand now
> 
> Religion is majority rules in this country. Our founding fathers decided that we would have a vote on which religion would be taught in our schools
> 
> That must have been in that history that Madeline Murray O'Hair had covered up
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well I see that what I said went over your head. That is not what I said at all.
Click to expand...

 
It didn't go over his head. He's lying about what you said because he can't effectively address the issue and have the outcome be the way he wants it.

This is why he's called Liewinger, or Rightliar.


----------



## ABikerSailor

peach174 said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The old testament is the torah
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong.........the Torah is the first 5 books of the Bible.  The rest of the OT is a history of the Jewish people.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Torah is the first 5 books of Moses and the tanakh is the hebrew bible. Which is what the old testeamnet is.
Click to expand...




> The name Torah (Hebrew: &#1514;&#1468;&#1493;&#1465;&#1512;&#1464;&#1492;, "Instruction"; English pronunciation: /&#712;t&#596;&#720;r&#601;/), also known as the Pentateuch (Greek: &#928;&#949;&#957;&#964;&#940;&#964;&#949;&#965;&#967;&#959;&#962; from &#960;&#949;&#957;&#964;&#945;- penta- [five] and &#964;&#949;&#8166;&#967;&#959;&#962; teuchos [tool, vessel, book]),[1] refers to the Five Books of Moses[2]  the entirety of Judaism's founding legal and ethical religious texts.[3][4] A "Sefer Torah" (&#1505;&#1461;&#1508;&#1462;&#1512; &#1514;&#1468;&#1493;&#1465;&#1512;&#1464;&#1492;, "book of Torah") or Torah scroll is a copy of the Torah written on parchment in a formal, traditional manner by a specially trained scribe under strict requirements.





> The Tanakh (Hebrew: &#1514;&#1463;&#1468;&#1504;&#1463;"&#1498;&#1456;*, pronounced [ta&#712;na&#967;] or [t&#601;&#712;nax]; also Tenakh, Tenak, Tanach) is a name used in Judaism for the canon of the Hebrew Bible. The Tanakh is also known as the Masoretic Text or the Miqra. The name is an acronym formed from the initial Hebrew letters of the Masoretic Text's three traditional subdivisions: The Torah ("Teaching", also known as the Five Books of Moses), Nevi'im ("Prophets") and Ketuvim ("Writings")hence TaNaKh. The name "Miqra" (&#1502;&#1511;&#1512;&#1488, meaning "that which is read", is an alternative Hebrew term for the Tanakh. The books of the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible) were relayed with an accompanying oral tradition passed on by each generation, called the Oral Torah.
> 
> According to the Talmud,[1] much of the contents of the Tanakh were compiled by the "Men of the Great Assembly" by 450 BCE, and have since remained unchanged. Modern scholars believe that the process of canonization of the Tanakh became finalized between 200 BCE and 200 CE, see Development of the Jewish canon for details.



Wikipedia is your friend.



> The Old Testament or Hebrew Scriptures are the collection of books that forms the first of the two-part Christian Biblical canon. The contents of the Old Testament canon vary from church to church, with the Orthodox communion having 51 books: the shared books are those of the shortest canon, that of the major Protestant communions, with 39 books. Christians hold different views of the Old Testament or Old Covenant in contrast to the New Covenant.
> 
> All Old Testament canons are related to the Jewish Bible Canon (Tanakh), but with variations. The most important of these variations is a change to the order of the books: the Hebrew Bible ends with the Book of Chronicles, which describes Israel restored to the Promised Land and the Temple restored in Jerusalem; in the Hebrew Bible God's purpose is thus fulfilled and the divine history is at an end, according to Dispensationalism and Supersessionism (see Jewish Eschatology for Jewish beliefs on the subject). In the Christian Old Testament the Book of Malachi is placed last, so that a prophecy of the coming of the Messiah leads into the birth of the Christ in the Gospel of Matthew.


----------



## AllieBaba

Be careful of wiki tho...always want to back it up with other sources IF the information is the least bit controversial/debatable.

Just saying.


----------



## peach174

So your point is.............? They are the same books rearranged or not, they are the same stories.


----------



## ABikerSailor

peach174 said:


> So your point is.............? They are the same books rearranged or not, they are the same stories.



[quoteAll Old Testament canons are related to the Jewish Bible Canon (Tanakh), but with variations][/quote]

Are you saying that because they're related, they're the same?  Wrong.  Read the post from wiki again.


----------



## peach174

ABikerSailor said:


> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So your point is.............? They are the same books rearranged or not, they are the same stories.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [quoteAll Old Testament canons are related to the Jewish Bible Canon (Tanakh), but with variations]
Click to expand...


Are you saying that because they're related, they're the same?  Wrong.  Read the post from wiki again.[/QUOTE]

How about you read both books and you will see that they are the same books.


----------



## AllieBaba

Regardless, it has nothing to do with whether or not the country was founded upon Christian principle.


----------



## rightwinger

peach174 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You think that we did not have Muslims, Jews and atheists at the founding of our nation?
> We did, *but they agreed that in order for them to have those religious freedoms , that Christianity was the root of this nation*. That there is a connection between God and Liberty.
> Our political philosophy of majority rules over the minority is why they did not teach the other religions, but you had to freedom to worship the way you wanted to or not at all.
> This was freedom for all. Now because of O'Hair, Christian's no longer have freedom and have been attacked ever since.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh ...I understand now
> 
> Religion is majority rules in this country. Our founding fathers decided that we would have a vote on which religion would be taught in our schools
> 
> That must have been in that history that Madeline Murray O'Hair had covered up
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well I see that what I said went over your head. That is not what I said at all.
Click to expand...


I'm afraid what you said was either an outright lie or a simplistic Christian interpretation of how our country was founded. 
Our country is a Republic and the majority does not rule over the minority. The majority selects representatives who make the rules. Our courts protect the rights of the minority.



> You think that we did not have Muslims, Jews and atheists at the founding of our nation?
> We did, but they agreed that in order for them to have those religious freedoms , that Christianity was the root of this nation



Do you actually believe that Muslims, Jews and Atheists traded off their religious freedoms in return for Christians being be the root of our nation? You can only have religious freedoms if you agree Christians are the root of the nation?

That is an embarassment to the principles this country was founded upon


----------



## ROBESPIERRE

Liberty said:


> I guess the question is: What is wrong with Christian values? Peace, love, turn the other cheek, help your neighbor, etc.



The Communists Revolutionaries believed they could change the world by making it a more peacefull and just place. By eliminating government by the powerful elite-wealthy and making everybody "equal" requiring brotherly love and fair sharing among the people. Ofcourse they needed a strong central government to enforce these strict moral rules, just like the Christians need a strong and strict fatherly "God" to watch over them.

America was not founded on "Christian" principals, but upon the ideas of the French Encylopedists who forsaw a new formula for society based upon individual freedoms which included freedom from government enforced religion. One must understand that the American Revolution, (like the French Revolution), was a major turning point in Western Civilization. The Old Feudal Order, which based its legitimcy upon "Good Christian Authority" was crumbling. (the reason Jews, who refused to convert, were always in trouble with authority).

 The Europe which existed between the fall of the Pax Romanus Order (around 475 AD), and the outbreak of the Capitalists revolutions of the 18th century, was a Europe ruled over almost exclusively by the Catholic Church. "The Holy Mother Church" owned all the land and apointed all its masters; its princes, its kings, its Lords, all drew their authority and legitimacy from recognition by the Pope in Rome. Later on you had Protestant Potentates, but the system was the same.

With the invention of Movable Type Printing by Gutenberg in 1500, the world started to change rapidly. The spread of this new technology spurned a new "Information Revolution" by making books cheap and plentyful and pamphlets and papers available and leading to the founding of discussion salons (and later intellectual coffee houses), all over Europe. This movement and evolution, led to the "Age of Enlightenment" and directly to *the fall of the Old Feudal System.*


*This is why our U.S. Constitution garantees seperation of church from state, thank you.*


----------



## ABikerSailor

Another fall of the feudal system has already started with the internet and YouTube.  Matter of fact, this one is taking hold world wide.

How else do you explain all these countries revolting against the dictators and rulers?


----------



## Flopper

peach174 said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Torah and the Old Testament had far more influence on the Constitution and Declaration of Independence than Christ's teaching.
> 
> Jewish Roots of the American Constitution « The State of America
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The old testament is the torah
Click to expand...

Not quite.  The Torah refers to the first 5 books of Moses.


----------



## Flopper

Flopper said:


> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Torah and the Old Testament had far more influence on the Constitution and Declaration of Independence than Christ's teaching.
> 
> Jewish Roots of the American Constitution « The State of America
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The old testament is the torah
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not quite.  The Torah refers to the first 5 books of Moses.
Click to expand...

The Torah is also known as the Pentateuch.


----------



## AllieBaba

Pentateuch.
That's the word I was looking for.


----------



## Old Rocks

AllieBaba said:


> Red herring. Nobody said the Constitution mentioned Christ.
> 
> Next.




The Christian Nation Myth


These beliefs were forcefully articulated by Thomas Paine in Age of Reason, a book that so outraged his contemporaries that he died rejected and despised by the nation that had once revered him as "the father of the American Revolution." To this day, many mistakenly consider him an atheist, even though he was an out spoken defender of the Deistic view of God. Other important founding fathers who espoused Deism were George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Ethan Allen, James Madison, and James Monroe.

Fundamentalist Christians are currently working overtime to convince the American public that the founding fathers intended to establish this country on "biblical principles," but history simply does not support their view. The men mentioned above and others who were instrumental in the founding of our nation were in no sense Bible-believing Christians. Thomas Jefferson, in fact, was fiercely anti-cleric. In a letter to Horatio Spafford in 1814, Jefferson said, "In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. It is easier to acquire wealth and power by this combination than by deserving them, and to effect this, they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer for their purposes" (George Seldes, The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey Citadel Press, 1983, p. 371). In a letter to Mrs. Harrison Smith, he wrote, "It is in our lives, and not from our words, that our religion must be read. By the same test the world must judge me. But this does not satisfy the priesthood. They must have a positive, a declared assent to all their interested absurdities. My opinion is that there would never have been an infidel, if there had never been a priest" (August 6, 1816).

Jefferson was just as suspicious of the traditional belief that the Bible is "the inspired word of God." He rewrote the story of Jesus as told in the New Testament and compiled his own gospel version known as The Jefferson Bible, which eliminated all miracles attributed to Jesus and ended with his burial. The Jeffersonian gospel account contained no resurrection, a twist to the life of Jesus that was considered scandalous to Christians but perfectly sensible to Jefferson's Deistic mind. In a letter to John Adams, he wrote, "To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, God, are immaterial is to say they are nothings, or that there is no God, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise" (August 15, 1820). In saying this, Jefferson was merely expressing the widely held Deistic view of his time, which rejected the mysticism of the Bible and relied on natural law and human reason to explain why the world is as it is. Writing to Adams again, Jefferson said, "And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter" (April 11, 1823). These were hardly the words of a devout Bible-believer.

Jefferson didn't just reject the Christian belief that the Bible was "the inspired word of God"; he rejected the Christian system too. In Notes on the State of Virginia, he said of this religion, "There is not one redeeming feature in our superstition of Christianity. It has made one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites" (quoted by newspaper columnist William Edelen, "Politics and Religious Illiteracy," Truth Seeker, Vol. 121, No. 3, p. 33). Anyone today who would make a statement like this or others we have quoted from Jefferson's writings would be instantly branded an infidel, yet modern Bible fundamentalists are frantically trying to cast Jefferson in the mold of a Bible believing Christian. They do so, of course, because Jefferson was just too important in the formation of our nation to leave him out if Bible fundamentalists hope to sell their "Christian-nation" claim to the public. Hence, they try to rewrite history to make it appear that men like Thomas Jefferson had intended to build our nation on "biblical principles." The irony of this situation is that the Christian leaders of Jefferson's time knew where he stood on "biblical principles," and they fought desperately, but unsuccessfully, to prevent his election to the presidency. Saul K. Padover's biography related the bitterness of the opposition that the clergy mounted against Jefferson in the campaign of 1800


----------



## AllieBaba

How does that support the claim that the US was not founded upon Christian values?

Do you have verification that Jefferson was lying when he said it was? Because he, and everybody else, did say that it was. 

Were they all lying? do you have evidence to show that although they said they were using Christian tenets to structure the country, they actually had some other plan in mind and were purposefully *pulling the wool* over everybody's eyes when each of them SAID THEY WERE FOUNDING THE COUNTRY USING CHRISTIAN VALUES???


----------



## Old Rocks

Well, I suppose that if this nation were actually founded on Christian beliefs, that it has long forgotten them. Were you to compare the hits on sites with sexual content to those professing religion, I think you would find the nation has voted with it's Mouses (mice? LOL).


----------



## AllieBaba

Again, what does that have to do with anything?


----------



## Intense

ROBESPIERRE said:


> Liberty said:
> 
> 
> 
> I guess the question is: What is wrong with Christian values? Peace, love, turn the other cheek, help your neighbor, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Communists Revolutionaries believed they could change the world by making it a more peacefull and just place. By eliminating government by the powerful elite-wealthy and making everybody "equal" requiring brotherly love and fair sharing among the people. Ofcourse they needed a strong central government to enforce these strict moral rules, just like the Christians need a strong and strict fatherly "God" to watch over them.
> 
> America was not founded on "Christian" principals, but upon the ideas of the French Encylopedists who forsaw a new formula for society based upon individual freedoms which included freedom from government enforced religion. One must understand that the American Revolution, (like the French Revolution), was a major turning point in Western Civilization. The Old Feudal Order, which based its legitimcy upon "Good Christian Authority" was crumbling. (the reason Jews, who refused to convert, were always in trouble with authority).
> 
> The Europe which existed between the fall of the Pax Romanus Order (around 475 AD), and the outbreak of the Capitalists revolutions of the 18th century, was a Europe ruled over almost exclusively by the Catholic Church. "The Holy Mother Church" owned all the land and apointed all its masters; its princes, its kings, its Lords, all drew their authority and legitimacy from recognition by the Pope in Rome. Later on you had Protestant Potentates, but the system was the same.
> 
> With the invention of Movable Type Printing by Gutenberg in 1500, the world started to change rapidly. The spread of this new technology spurned a new "Information Revolution" by making books cheap and plentyful and pamphlets and papers available and leading to the founding of discussion salons (and later intellectual coffee houses), all over Europe. This movement and evolution, led to the "Age of Enlightenment" and directly to *the fall of the Old Feudal System.*
> 
> 
> *This is why our U.S. Constitution garantees seperation of church from state, thank you.*
Click to expand...


There is more English reason than French that brought us to where we are. Why make false claims??? Separation of Church and State came from Locke's Interpretation of Scripture. Give it a break.


----------



## peach174

rightwinger said:


> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh ...I understand now
> 
> Religion is majority rules in this country. Our founding fathers decided that we would have a vote on which religion would be taught in our schools
> 
> That must have been in that history that Madeline Murray O'Hair had covered up
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well I see that what I said went over your head. That is not what I said at all.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm afraid what you said was either an outright lie or a simplistic Christian interpretation of how our country was founded.
> Our country is a Republic and the majority does not rule over the minority. The majority selects representatives who make the rules. Our courts protect the rights of the minority.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You think that we did not have Muslims, Jews and atheists at the founding of our nation?
> We did, but they agreed that in order for them to have those religious freedoms , that Christianity was the root of this nation
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Do you actually believe that Muslims, Jews and Atheists traded off their religious freedoms in return for Christians being be the root of our nation? You can only have religious freedoms if you agree Christians are the root of the nation?
> 
> That is an embarassment to the principles this country was founded upon
Click to expand...


YOU ARE NOT GETTING IT
Muslims,Jews and Atheists did not trade off anything for their freedom.
You dropped the part where I said there is a connection between God and Liberty.
Our political and human rights come from a power higher than human government.
This was the very basis of our constitutional government.
You must have Biblical morality or liberty cannot survive without a divine connection.
This is why schools taught the bible and our courts had the ten commandments displayed.
the most important of them was to honor your parents, then,
you shall not commit murder, nor adultery, or steal and to have a good relationship with your neighbor.
It is all about not hurting others.
Its about freedom for all of us as a society by teaching these commandments.


----------



## Flopper

AllieBaba said:


> Yeah. Anyway. Your opinion of what constitutes Christianity is a completely different topic. But just for the record, let it show that Christians believe that God & Christ are Father and Son, with the Holy Spirit they are God, separate and yet one. Not that it matters. We all know the FF were referring to the Christian God.


Reading about our founders, I doubt very seriously that they intended to found a nation based on Christian principals, but if by Christian principals you are speaking of just human rights, I agree.  However, Christianity is not only religion that believes in human rights.

Jefferson was a Deist.

Adams rejected many fundamental doctrines of Christianity, such as the Trinity and divinity of Jesus.

Franklin formulated a presentation of his beliefs and published it in 1728.  It did not mention many of the Puritan ideas as regards belief in salvation, hell, the divinity of Jesus, and indeed most religious dogma. He clarified himself as a Deist in his 1771 autobiography. 

Alexander Hamilton from 1777 to 1792 appeared to be completely indifferent to religion and made jokes about God at the Constitutional Convention.

George Washington throughout his life had little to say about his religious beliefs.


----------



## Intense

Because we hold it for a fundamental and undeniable truth, "that religion or the duty which we owe to our Creator and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence." The Religion then of every man must be left to the conviction and conscience of every man; and it is the right of every man to exercise it as these may dictate. This right is in its nature an unalienable right. It is unalienable, because the opinions of men, depending only on the evidence contemplated by their own minds cannot follow the dictates of other men: It is unalienable also, because what is here a right towards men, is a duty towards the Creator. It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage and such only as he believes to be acceptable to him. This duty is precedent, both in order of time and in degree of obligation, to the claims of Civil Society. Before any man can be considerd as a member of Civil Society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governour of the Universe: And if a member of Civil Society, do it with a saving of his allegiance to the Universal Sovereign. We maintain therefore that in matters of Religion, no man's right is abridged by the institution of Civil Society and that Religion is wholly exempt from its cognizance. True it is, that no other rule exists, by which any question which may divide a Society, can be ultimately determined, but the will of the majority; but it is also true that the majority may trespass on the rights of the minority. 

Because Religion be exempt from the authority of the Society at large, still less can it be subject to that of the Legislative Body. The latter are but the creatures and vicegerents of the former. Their jurisdiction is both derivative and limited: it is limited with regard to the co-ordinate departments, more necessarily is it limited with regard to the constituents. The preservation of a free Government requires not merely, that the metes and bounds which separate each department of power be invariably maintained; but more especially that neither of them be suffered to overleap the great Barrier which defends the rights of the people. The Rulers who are guilty of such an encroachment, exceed the commission from which they derive their authority, and are Tyrants. The People who submit to it are governed by laws made neither by themselves nor by an authority derived from them, and are slaves. 

Because it is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. We hold this prudent jealousy to be the first duty of Citizens, and one of the noblest characteristics of the late Revolution. The free men of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entagled the question in precedents. They saw all the consequences in the principle, and they avoided the consequences by denying the principle. We revere this lesson too much soon to forget it. Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects? that the same authority which can force a citizen to contribute three pence only of his property for the support of any one establishment, may force him to conform to any other establishment in all cases whatsoever? ..........

Religious Freedom Page: Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments, James Madison (1785)


----------



## Intense

Religious Affiliation of the Signers of the
Declaration of Independence
Religious Affiliation # of
signers % of
signers 
Episcopalian/Anglican 32 57.1% 
Congregationalist 13 23.2% 
Presbyterian 12 21.4% 
Quaker 2 3.6% 
Unitarian or Universalist 2 3.6% 
Catholic 1 1.8% 
TOTAL 56 100% 

Name of Signer State Religious Affiliation 
Charles Carroll Maryland Catholic 
Samuel Huntington Connecticut Congregationalist 
Roger Sherman Connecticut Congregationalist 
William Williams Connecticut Congregationalist 
Oliver Wolcott Connecticut Congregationalist 
Lyman Hall Georgia Congregationalist 
Samuel Adams Massachusetts Congregationalist 
John Hancock Massachusetts Congregationalist 
Josiah Bartlett New Hampshire Congregationalist 
William Whipple New Hampshire Congregationalist 
William Ellery Rhode Island Congregationalist 
John Adams Massachusetts Congregationalist; Unitarian 
Robert Treat Paine Massachusetts Congregationalist; Unitarian 
George Walton Georgia Episcopalian 
John Penn North Carolina Episcopalian 
George Ross Pennsylvania Episcopalian 
Thomas Heyward Jr. South Carolina Episcopalian 
Thomas Lynch Jr. South Carolina Episcopalian 
Arthur Middleton South Carolina Episcopalian 
Edward Rutledge South Carolina Episcopalian 
Francis Lightfoot Lee Virginia Episcopalian 
Richard Henry Lee Virginia Episcopalian 
George Read Delaware Episcopalian 
Caesar Rodney Delaware Episcopalian 
Samuel Chase Maryland Episcopalian 
William Paca Maryland Episcopalian 
Thomas Stone Maryland Episcopalian 
Elbridge Gerry Massachusetts Episcopalian 
Francis Hopkinson New Jersey Episcopalian 
Francis Lewis New York Episcopalian 
Lewis Morris New York Episcopalian 
William Hooper North Carolina Episcopalian 
Robert Morris Pennsylvania Episcopalian 
John Morton Pennsylvania Episcopalian 
Stephen Hopkins Rhode Island Episcopalian 
Carter Braxton Virginia Episcopalian 
Benjamin Harrison Virginia Episcopalian 
Thomas Nelson Jr. Virginia Episcopalian 
George Wythe Virginia Episcopalian 
Thomas Jefferson Virginia Episcopalian (Deist) 
Benjamin Franklin Pennsylvania Episcopalian (Deist) 
Button Gwinnett Georgia Episcopalian; Congregationalist 
James Wilson Pennsylvania Episcopalian; Presbyterian 
Joseph Hewes North Carolina Quaker, Episcopalian 
George Clymer Pennsylvania Quaker, Episcopalian 
Thomas McKean Delaware Presbyterian 
Matthew Thornton New Hampshire Presbyterian 
Abraham Clark New Jersey Presbyterian 
John Hart New Jersey Presbyterian 
Richard Stockton New Jersey Presbyterian 
John Witherspoon New Jersey Presbyterian 
William Floyd New York Presbyterian 
Philip Livingston New York Presbyterian 
James Smith Pennsylvania Presbyterian 
George Taylor Pennsylvania Presbyterian 
Benjamin Rush Pennsylvania Presbyterian 

Religion of the Founding Fathers of America


----------



## Flopper

Intense said:


> Religious Affiliation of the Signers of the
> Declaration of Independence
> Religious Affiliation # of
> signers % of
> signers
> Episcopalian/Anglican 32 57.1%
> Congregationalist 13 23.2%
> Presbyterian 12 21.4%
> Quaker 2 3.6%
> Unitarian or Universalist 2 3.6%
> Catholic 1 1.8%
> TOTAL 56 100%
> 
> Name of Signer State Religious Affiliation
> Charles Carroll Maryland Catholic
> Samuel Huntington Connecticut Congregationalist
> Roger Sherman Connecticut Congregationalist
> William Williams Connecticut Congregationalist
> Oliver Wolcott Connecticut Congregationalist
> Lyman Hall Georgia Congregationalist
> Samuel Adams Massachusetts Congregationalist
> John Hancock Massachusetts Congregationalist
> Josiah Bartlett New Hampshire Congregationalist
> William Whipple New Hampshire Congregationalist
> William Ellery Rhode Island Congregationalist
> John Adams Massachusetts Congregationalist; Unitarian
> Robert Treat Paine Massachusetts Congregationalist; Unitarian
> George Walton Georgia Episcopalian
> John Penn North Carolina Episcopalian
> George Ross Pennsylvania Episcopalian
> Thomas Heyward Jr. South Carolina Episcopalian
> Thomas Lynch Jr. South Carolina Episcopalian
> Arthur Middleton South Carolina Episcopalian
> Edward Rutledge South Carolina Episcopalian
> Francis Lightfoot Lee Virginia Episcopalian
> Richard Henry Lee Virginia Episcopalian
> George Read Delaware Episcopalian
> Caesar Rodney Delaware Episcopalian
> Samuel Chase Maryland Episcopalian
> William Paca Maryland Episcopalian
> Thomas Stone Maryland Episcopalian
> Elbridge Gerry Massachusetts Episcopalian
> Francis Hopkinson New Jersey Episcopalian
> Francis Lewis New York Episcopalian
> Lewis Morris New York Episcopalian
> William Hooper North Carolina Episcopalian
> Robert Morris Pennsylvania Episcopalian
> John Morton Pennsylvania Episcopalian
> Stephen Hopkins Rhode Island Episcopalian
> Carter Braxton Virginia Episcopalian
> Benjamin Harrison Virginia Episcopalian
> Thomas Nelson Jr. Virginia Episcopalian
> George Wythe Virginia Episcopalian
> Thomas Jefferson Virginia Episcopalian (Deist)
> Benjamin Franklin Pennsylvania Episcopalian (Deist)
> Button Gwinnett Georgia Episcopalian; Congregationalist
> James Wilson Pennsylvania Episcopalian; Presbyterian
> Joseph Hewes North Carolina Quaker, Episcopalian
> George Clymer Pennsylvania Quaker, Episcopalian
> Thomas McKean Delaware Presbyterian
> Matthew Thornton New Hampshire Presbyterian
> Abraham Clark New Jersey Presbyterian
> John Hart New Jersey Presbyterian
> Richard Stockton New Jersey Presbyterian
> John Witherspoon New Jersey Presbyterian
> William Floyd New York Presbyterian
> Philip Livingston New York Presbyterian
> James Smith Pennsylvania Presbyterian
> George Taylor Pennsylvania Presbyterian
> Benjamin Rush Pennsylvania Presbyterian
> 
> Religion of the Founding Fathers of America


In America in the 1700's, just about every historic figure has been associated with some religion by historians.  Since there were only a thousand or so Jews in America and only a handful of Muslims and other religions, it was pretty much Christianity or nothing.  Christianity was the only game in town, but that does not mean that our founder shared Christian beliefs.  To the contrary, there is much evidence that suggest otherwise.  The last thing the founders wanted was a nation rooted in any religious belief.

There is ample evidence that our founder believed in a supreme being and thus saw nothing wrong with    using the word God in the Declaration of Independence.  The world God does not appear in Constitution.  Christ does not appear in either document.  If our founders intended that we be a Christian nation, don't you think they would mentioned Christ in these documents?


----------



## AllieBaba

Flopper said:


> Intense said:
> 
> 
> 
> Religious Affiliation of the Signers of the
> Declaration of Independence
> Religious Affiliation # of
> signers % of
> signers
> Episcopalian/Anglican 32 57.1%
> Congregationalist 13 23.2%
> Presbyterian 12 21.4%
> Quaker 2 3.6%
> Unitarian or Universalist 2 3.6%
> Catholic 1 1.8%
> TOTAL 56 100%
> 
> Name of Signer State Religious Affiliation
> Charles Carroll Maryland Catholic
> Samuel Huntington Connecticut Congregationalist
> Roger Sherman Connecticut Congregationalist
> William Williams Connecticut Congregationalist
> Oliver Wolcott Connecticut Congregationalist
> Lyman Hall Georgia Congregationalist
> Samuel Adams Massachusetts Congregationalist
> John Hancock Massachusetts Congregationalist
> Josiah Bartlett New Hampshire Congregationalist
> William Whipple New Hampshire Congregationalist
> William Ellery Rhode Island Congregationalist
> John Adams Massachusetts Congregationalist; Unitarian
> Robert Treat Paine Massachusetts Congregationalist; Unitarian
> George Walton Georgia Episcopalian
> John Penn North Carolina Episcopalian
> George Ross Pennsylvania Episcopalian
> Thomas Heyward Jr. South Carolina Episcopalian
> Thomas Lynch Jr. South Carolina Episcopalian
> Arthur Middleton South Carolina Episcopalian
> Edward Rutledge South Carolina Episcopalian
> Francis Lightfoot Lee Virginia Episcopalian
> Richard Henry Lee Virginia Episcopalian
> George Read Delaware Episcopalian
> Caesar Rodney Delaware Episcopalian
> Samuel Chase Maryland Episcopalian
> William Paca Maryland Episcopalian
> Thomas Stone Maryland Episcopalian
> Elbridge Gerry Massachusetts Episcopalian
> Francis Hopkinson New Jersey Episcopalian
> Francis Lewis New York Episcopalian
> Lewis Morris New York Episcopalian
> William Hooper North Carolina Episcopalian
> Robert Morris Pennsylvania Episcopalian
> John Morton Pennsylvania Episcopalian
> Stephen Hopkins Rhode Island Episcopalian
> Carter Braxton Virginia Episcopalian
> Benjamin Harrison Virginia Episcopalian
> Thomas Nelson Jr. Virginia Episcopalian
> George Wythe Virginia Episcopalian
> Thomas Jefferson Virginia Episcopalian (Deist)
> Benjamin Franklin Pennsylvania Episcopalian (Deist)
> Button Gwinnett Georgia Episcopalian; Congregationalist
> James Wilson Pennsylvania Episcopalian; Presbyterian
> Joseph Hewes North Carolina Quaker, Episcopalian
> George Clymer Pennsylvania Quaker, Episcopalian
> Thomas McKean Delaware Presbyterian
> Matthew Thornton New Hampshire Presbyterian
> Abraham Clark New Jersey Presbyterian
> John Hart New Jersey Presbyterian
> Richard Stockton New Jersey Presbyterian
> John Witherspoon New Jersey Presbyterian
> William Floyd New York Presbyterian
> Philip Livingston New York Presbyterian
> James Smith Pennsylvania Presbyterian
> George Taylor Pennsylvania Presbyterian
> Benjamin Rush Pennsylvania Presbyterian
> 
> Religion of the Founding Fathers of America
> 
> 
> 
> In America in the 1700's, just about every historic figure has been associated with some religion by historians. Since there were only a thousand or so Jews in America and only a handful of Muslims and other religions, it was pretty much Christianity or nothing. Christianity was the only game in town, but that does not mean that our founder shared Christian beliefs. To the contrary, there is much evidence that suggest otherwise. The last thing the founders wanted was a nation rooted in any religious belief.
> 
> There is ample evidence that our founder believed in a supreme being and thus saw nothing wrong with using the word God in the Declaration of Independence. The world God does not appear in Constitution. Christ does not appear in either document. If our founders intended that we be a Christian nation, don't you think they would mentioned Christ in these documents?
Click to expand...

 
We don't have to guess. We know, because they told us.

They didn't put it in the constitution because it is fundamental to Christianity that faith be voluntary, not forced. And because they knew the dangers of theocracy. But there is more to the foundation of this country than just the constitution. There was all the work that took place before the constitution, and there's the declaration. 

But they STATED, OVER AND OVER AND OVER, that they were structuring the country on CHRISTIAN principles. 

Do you think they were lying when they said that? Do you think that it's impossible to structure a country using Christian ideals without it being a theocracy?


----------



## rightwinger

peach174 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well I see that what I said went over your head. That is not what I said at all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm afraid what you said was either an outright lie or a simplistic Christian interpretation of how our country was founded.
> Our country is a Republic and the majority does not rule over the minority. The majority selects representatives who make the rules. Our courts protect the rights of the minority.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You think that we did not have Muslims, Jews and atheists at the founding of our nation?
> We did, but they agreed that in order for them to have those religious freedoms , that Christianity was the root of this nation
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Do you actually believe that Muslims, Jews and Atheists traded off their religious freedoms in return for Christians being be the root of our nation? You can only have religious freedoms if you agree Christians are the root of the nation?
> 
> That is an embarassment to the principles this country was founded upon
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> YOU ARE NOT GETTING IT
> Muslims,Jews and Atheists did not trade off anything for their freedom.
> You dropped the part where I said there is a connection between God and Liberty.
> Our political and human rights come from a power higher than human government.
> This was the very basis of our constitutional government.
> You must have Biblical morality or liberty cannot survive without a divine connection.
> This is why schools taught the bible and our courts had the ten commandments displayed.
> the most important of them was to honor your parents, then,
> you shall not commit murder, nor adultery, or steal and to have a good relationship with your neighbor.
> It is all about not hurting others.
> Its about freedom for all of us as a society by teaching these commandments.
Click to expand...


Wow......boy were you indoctrinated

Do you really believe there could be no Liberty without biblical morality?  Do you think those who do not follow the bible cannot be moral?

Ten commandments in schools?  Have you ever read them?  If so, why do you think they should be taught in schools? REALLY read them and tell me why ALL children should be forced to learn them


----------



## Flopper

AllieBaba said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Intense said:
> 
> 
> 
> Religious Affiliation of the Signers of the
> Declaration of Independence
> Religious Affiliation # of
> signers % of
> signers
> Episcopalian/Anglican 32 57.1%
> Congregationalist 13 23.2%
> Presbyterian 12 21.4%
> Quaker 2 3.6%
> Unitarian or Universalist 2 3.6%
> Catholic 1 1.8%
> TOTAL 56 100%
> 
> Name of Signer State Religious Affiliation
> Charles Carroll Maryland Catholic
> Samuel Huntington Connecticut Congregationalist
> Roger Sherman Connecticut Congregationalist
> William Williams Connecticut Congregationalist
> Oliver Wolcott Connecticut Congregationalist
> Lyman Hall Georgia Congregationalist
> Samuel Adams Massachusetts Congregationalist
> John Hancock Massachusetts Congregationalist
> Josiah Bartlett New Hampshire Congregationalist
> William Whipple New Hampshire Congregationalist
> William Ellery Rhode Island Congregationalist
> John Adams Massachusetts Congregationalist; Unitarian
> Robert Treat Paine Massachusetts Congregationalist; Unitarian
> George Walton Georgia Episcopalian
> John Penn North Carolina Episcopalian
> George Ross Pennsylvania Episcopalian
> Thomas Heyward Jr. South Carolina Episcopalian
> Thomas Lynch Jr. South Carolina Episcopalian
> Arthur Middleton South Carolina Episcopalian
> Edward Rutledge South Carolina Episcopalian
> Francis Lightfoot Lee Virginia Episcopalian
> Richard Henry Lee Virginia Episcopalian
> George Read Delaware Episcopalian
> Caesar Rodney Delaware Episcopalian
> Samuel Chase Maryland Episcopalian
> William Paca Maryland Episcopalian
> Thomas Stone Maryland Episcopalian
> Elbridge Gerry Massachusetts Episcopalian
> Francis Hopkinson New Jersey Episcopalian
> Francis Lewis New York Episcopalian
> Lewis Morris New York Episcopalian
> William Hooper North Carolina Episcopalian
> Robert Morris Pennsylvania Episcopalian
> John Morton Pennsylvania Episcopalian
> Stephen Hopkins Rhode Island Episcopalian
> Carter Braxton Virginia Episcopalian
> Benjamin Harrison Virginia Episcopalian
> Thomas Nelson Jr. Virginia Episcopalian
> George Wythe Virginia Episcopalian
> Thomas Jefferson Virginia Episcopalian (Deist)
> Benjamin Franklin Pennsylvania Episcopalian (Deist)
> Button Gwinnett Georgia Episcopalian; Congregationalist
> James Wilson Pennsylvania Episcopalian; Presbyterian
> Joseph Hewes North Carolina Quaker, Episcopalian
> George Clymer Pennsylvania Quaker, Episcopalian
> Thomas McKean Delaware Presbyterian
> Matthew Thornton New Hampshire Presbyterian
> Abraham Clark New Jersey Presbyterian
> John Hart New Jersey Presbyterian
> Richard Stockton New Jersey Presbyterian
> John Witherspoon New Jersey Presbyterian
> William Floyd New York Presbyterian
> Philip Livingston New York Presbyterian
> James Smith Pennsylvania Presbyterian
> George Taylor Pennsylvania Presbyterian
> Benjamin Rush Pennsylvania Presbyterian
> 
> Religion of the Founding Fathers of America
> 
> 
> 
> In America in the 1700's, just about every historic figure has been associated with some religion by historians. Since there were only a thousand or so Jews in America and only a handful of Muslims and other religions, it was pretty much Christianity or nothing. Christianity was the only game in town, but that does not mean that our founder shared Christian beliefs. To the contrary, there is much evidence that suggest otherwise. The last thing the founders wanted was a nation rooted in any religious belief.
> 
> There is ample evidence that our founder believed in a supreme being and thus saw nothing wrong with using the word God in the Declaration of Independence. The world God does not appear in Constitution. Christ does not appear in either document. If our founders intended that we be a Christian nation, don't you think they would mentioned Christ in these documents?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We don't have to guess. We know, because they told us.
> 
> They didn't put it in the constitution because it is fundamental to Christianity that faith be voluntary, not forced. And because they knew the dangers of theocracy. But there is more to the foundation of this country than just the constitution. There was all the work that took place before the constitution, and there's the declaration.
> 
> But they STATED, OVER AND OVER AND OVER, that they were structuring the country on CHRISTIAN principles.
> 
> Do you think they were lying when they said that? Do you think that it's impossible to structure a country using Christian ideals without it being a theocracy?
Click to expand...

When you say Christian ideals what are you taking about?


----------



## uscitizen

He is obvously talking about god ordering his followerrs to slay all who did not flee before them?
Women, children and even animals.


----------



## Intense

AllieBaba said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Intense said:
> 
> 
> 
> Religious Affiliation of the Signers of the
> Declaration of Independence
> Religious Affiliation # of
> signers % of
> signers
> Episcopalian/Anglican 32 57.1%
> Congregationalist 13 23.2%
> Presbyterian 12 21.4%
> Quaker 2 3.6%
> Unitarian or Universalist 2 3.6%
> Catholic 1 1.8%
> TOTAL 56 100%
> 
> Name of Signer State Religious Affiliation
> Charles Carroll Maryland Catholic
> Samuel Huntington Connecticut Congregationalist
> Roger Sherman Connecticut Congregationalist
> William Williams Connecticut Congregationalist
> Oliver Wolcott Connecticut Congregationalist
> Lyman Hall Georgia Congregationalist
> Samuel Adams Massachusetts Congregationalist
> John Hancock Massachusetts Congregationalist
> Josiah Bartlett New Hampshire Congregationalist
> William Whipple New Hampshire Congregationalist
> William Ellery Rhode Island Congregationalist
> John Adams Massachusetts Congregationalist; Unitarian
> Robert Treat Paine Massachusetts Congregationalist; Unitarian
> George Walton Georgia Episcopalian
> John Penn North Carolina Episcopalian
> George Ross Pennsylvania Episcopalian
> Thomas Heyward Jr. South Carolina Episcopalian
> Thomas Lynch Jr. South Carolina Episcopalian
> Arthur Middleton South Carolina Episcopalian
> Edward Rutledge South Carolina Episcopalian
> Francis Lightfoot Lee Virginia Episcopalian
> Richard Henry Lee Virginia Episcopalian
> George Read Delaware Episcopalian
> Caesar Rodney Delaware Episcopalian
> Samuel Chase Maryland Episcopalian
> William Paca Maryland Episcopalian
> Thomas Stone Maryland Episcopalian
> Elbridge Gerry Massachusetts Episcopalian
> Francis Hopkinson New Jersey Episcopalian
> Francis Lewis New York Episcopalian
> Lewis Morris New York Episcopalian
> William Hooper North Carolina Episcopalian
> Robert Morris Pennsylvania Episcopalian
> John Morton Pennsylvania Episcopalian
> Stephen Hopkins Rhode Island Episcopalian
> Carter Braxton Virginia Episcopalian
> Benjamin Harrison Virginia Episcopalian
> Thomas Nelson Jr. Virginia Episcopalian
> George Wythe Virginia Episcopalian
> Thomas Jefferson Virginia Episcopalian (Deist)
> Benjamin Franklin Pennsylvania Episcopalian (Deist)
> Button Gwinnett Georgia Episcopalian; Congregationalist
> James Wilson Pennsylvania Episcopalian; Presbyterian
> Joseph Hewes North Carolina Quaker, Episcopalian
> George Clymer Pennsylvania Quaker, Episcopalian
> Thomas McKean Delaware Presbyterian
> Matthew Thornton New Hampshire Presbyterian
> Abraham Clark New Jersey Presbyterian
> John Hart New Jersey Presbyterian
> Richard Stockton New Jersey Presbyterian
> John Witherspoon New Jersey Presbyterian
> William Floyd New York Presbyterian
> Philip Livingston New York Presbyterian
> James Smith Pennsylvania Presbyterian
> George Taylor Pennsylvania Presbyterian
> Benjamin Rush Pennsylvania Presbyterian
> 
> Religion of the Founding Fathers of America
> 
> 
> 
> In America in the 1700's, just about every historic figure has been associated with some religion by historians. Since there were only a thousand or so Jews in America and only a handful of Muslims and other religions, it was pretty much Christianity or nothing. Christianity was the only game in town, but that does not mean that our founder shared Christian beliefs. To the contrary, there is much evidence that suggest otherwise. The last thing the founders wanted was a nation rooted in any religious belief.
> 
> There is ample evidence that our founder believed in a supreme being and thus saw nothing wrong with using the word God in the Declaration of Independence. The world God does not appear in Constitution. Christ does not appear in either document. If our founders intended that we be a Christian nation, don't you think they would mentioned Christ in these documents?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We don't have to guess. We know, because they told us.
> 
> They didn't put it in the constitution because it is fundamental to Christianity that faith be voluntary, not forced. And because they knew the dangers of theocracy. But there is more to the foundation of this country than just the constitution. There was all the work that took place before the constitution, and there's the declaration.
> 
> But they STATED, OVER AND OVER AND OVER, that they were structuring the country on CHRISTIAN principles.
> 
> Do you think they were lying when they said that? Do you think that it's impossible to structure a country using Christian ideals without it being a theocracy?
Click to expand...


Flopper seems too fare gone to be able to comprehend. Too many years of programing and being lied to.


----------



## AllieBaba

I don't know, but it's alarming. I would have thought that anyone can learn, but I see over and over that there are people who reach a certain level and decide to stay..right...there. They have no desire to learn anything more, to review their own understanding of the world, or even to be truthful or correct

I don't see how people can live like that.


----------



## rightwinger

AllieBaba said:


> I don't know, but it's alarming. I would have thought that anyone can learn, but I see over and over that there are people who reach a certain level and decide to stay..right...there. They have no desire to learn anything more, to review their own understanding of the world, or even to be truthful or correct
> 
> I don't see how people can live like that.



We are trying to teach you the facts, but you are too damn stubborn.  But given time, you will come around


----------



## AllieBaba

Your very name is a lie. I'll get my facts elsewhere.


----------



## rightwinger

AllieBaba said:


> Your very name is a lie. I'll get my facts elsewhere.



You can't fool me.....you are not the real AllieBaba


----------



## AllieBaba

I am AllieBaba...

My name alludes nothing about my political views, however. If it did, it wouldn't portray me as something I'm not.


----------



## ogibillm

AllieBaba said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Intense said:
> 
> 
> 
> Religious Affiliation of the Signers of the
> Declaration of Independence
> Religious Affiliation # of
> signers % of
> signers
> Episcopalian/Anglican 32 57.1%
> Congregationalist 13 23.2%
> Presbyterian 12 21.4%
> Quaker 2 3.6%
> Unitarian or Universalist 2 3.6%
> Catholic 1 1.8%
> TOTAL 56 100%
> 
> Name of Signer State Religious Affiliation
> Charles Carroll Maryland Catholic
> Samuel Huntington Connecticut Congregationalist
> Roger Sherman Connecticut Congregationalist
> William Williams Connecticut Congregationalist
> Oliver Wolcott Connecticut Congregationalist
> Lyman Hall Georgia Congregationalist
> Samuel Adams Massachusetts Congregationalist
> John Hancock Massachusetts Congregationalist
> Josiah Bartlett New Hampshire Congregationalist
> William Whipple New Hampshire Congregationalist
> William Ellery Rhode Island Congregationalist
> John Adams Massachusetts Congregationalist; Unitarian
> Robert Treat Paine Massachusetts Congregationalist; Unitarian
> George Walton Georgia Episcopalian
> John Penn North Carolina Episcopalian
> George Ross Pennsylvania Episcopalian
> Thomas Heyward Jr. South Carolina Episcopalian
> Thomas Lynch Jr. South Carolina Episcopalian
> Arthur Middleton South Carolina Episcopalian
> Edward Rutledge South Carolina Episcopalian
> Francis Lightfoot Lee Virginia Episcopalian
> Richard Henry Lee Virginia Episcopalian
> George Read Delaware Episcopalian
> Caesar Rodney Delaware Episcopalian
> Samuel Chase Maryland Episcopalian
> William Paca Maryland Episcopalian
> Thomas Stone Maryland Episcopalian
> Elbridge Gerry Massachusetts Episcopalian
> Francis Hopkinson New Jersey Episcopalian
> Francis Lewis New York Episcopalian
> Lewis Morris New York Episcopalian
> William Hooper North Carolina Episcopalian
> Robert Morris Pennsylvania Episcopalian
> John Morton Pennsylvania Episcopalian
> Stephen Hopkins Rhode Island Episcopalian
> Carter Braxton Virginia Episcopalian
> Benjamin Harrison Virginia Episcopalian
> Thomas Nelson Jr. Virginia Episcopalian
> George Wythe Virginia Episcopalian
> Thomas Jefferson Virginia Episcopalian (Deist)
> Benjamin Franklin Pennsylvania Episcopalian (Deist)
> Button Gwinnett Georgia Episcopalian; Congregationalist
> James Wilson Pennsylvania Episcopalian; Presbyterian
> Joseph Hewes North Carolina Quaker, Episcopalian
> George Clymer Pennsylvania Quaker, Episcopalian
> Thomas McKean Delaware Presbyterian
> Matthew Thornton New Hampshire Presbyterian
> Abraham Clark New Jersey Presbyterian
> John Hart New Jersey Presbyterian
> Richard Stockton New Jersey Presbyterian
> John Witherspoon New Jersey Presbyterian
> William Floyd New York Presbyterian
> Philip Livingston New York Presbyterian
> James Smith Pennsylvania Presbyterian
> George Taylor Pennsylvania Presbyterian
> Benjamin Rush Pennsylvania Presbyterian
> 
> Religion of the Founding Fathers of America
> 
> 
> 
> In America in the 1700's, just about every historic figure has been associated with some religion by historians. Since there were only a thousand or so Jews in America and only a handful of Muslims and other religions, it was pretty much Christianity or nothing. Christianity was the only game in town, but that does not mean that our founder shared Christian beliefs. To the contrary, there is much evidence that suggest otherwise. The last thing the founders wanted was a nation rooted in any religious belief.
> 
> There is ample evidence that our founder believed in a supreme being and thus saw nothing wrong with using the word God in the Declaration of Independence. The world God does not appear in Constitution. Christ does not appear in either document. If our founders intended that we be a Christian nation, don't you think they would mentioned Christ in these documents?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We don't have to guess. We know, because they told us.
> 
> *They didn't put it in the constitution because it is fundamental to Christianity that faith be voluntary, not forced*. And because they knew the dangers of theocracy. But there is more to the foundation of this country than just the constitution. There was all the work that took place before the constitution, and there's the declaration.
> 
> But they STATED, OVER AND OVER AND OVER, that they were structuring the country on CHRISTIAN principles.
> 
> Do you think they were lying when they said that? Do you think that it's impossible to structure a country using Christian ideals without it being a theocracy?
Click to expand...


that hasn't been a christian value for very long


----------



## AllieBaba

Only since the birth of Christianity.


----------



## ogibillm

AllieBaba said:


> Only since the birth of Christianity.



and here we have a great example of revisionist history.


----------



## AllieBaba

I wouldn't argue the NT with me if I were you.


----------



## ogibillm

AllieBaba said:


> I wouldn't argue the NT with me if I were you.



you can argue the new testament all you want. history says that faith by choice is a relatively new idea


----------



## AllieBaba

You said faith by choice was a new Christian value, you nitwit.

Hoist on your own petard.


----------



## ogibillm

AllieBaba said:


> You said faith by choice was a new Christian value, you nitwit.
> 
> Hoist on your own petard.



i said it's a relatively new christian value. for most of christianity's history faith by choice, or freedom of religion, was not a value of its followers.

and by that logic one can wonder if it is a christian value or a value born of the enlightenment adopted by christianity.


----------



## AllieBaba

By that logic we have determined you're an idiot.

Whatever fads or dogma have evolved since Christ, the basic premise of Christianity is Salvation, and Salvation cannot be coerced. It is THE foundation of Christianity...that salvation comes only by personal invitation.

And to say that's a *new* Christian concept is about the stupidest thing I've heard. And I've heard a lot of really stupid things.


----------



## ogibillm

AllieBaba said:


> By that logic we have determined you're an idiot.
> 
> Whatever fads or dogma have evolved since Christ, the basic premise of Christianity is Salvation, and Salvation cannot be coerced. It is THE foundation of Christianity...that salvation comes only by personal invitation.
> 
> And to say that's a *new* Christian concept is about the stupidest thing I've heard. *And I've heard a lot of really stupid things.*



wear earplugs when you speak and that'll cut down on a lot of that.
And I've heard a lot of really stupid things.

regardless of what you want to pretend christianity has forced itself upon countless people, been spread violently, and oppressed those of other faiths for most a good portion of its history. 

it wasn't until the enlightenment that things really began to change - which begs the question is religious freedom and faith by choice a christian value or an enlightenment value co-opted by christianity?


----------



## AllieBaba

Christianity hasn't *forced itself* anywhere.

But just admit you're an idiot for saying that the concept of individual, personal salvation is a NEW Christian concept and I'll let you continue to wallow in your ignorance on other points.


----------



## ogibillm

AllieBaba said:


> Christianity hasn't *forced itself* anywhere.
> 
> But just admit you're an idiot for saying that the concept of individual, personal salvation is a NEW Christian concept and I'll let you continue to wallow in your ignorance on other points.



wow. you must not be very familiar with history - especially things like the inquisition, the crusades, the conquistadors...

hell, different denominations were taking turns locking each other up in the colonies in the late 18th century.

religious freedom and faith by choice is a historical new christian phenomenon.

in fact, given the time of our founding, one could really say that religious freedom and faith by choice was not a christian value at that time.


----------



## AllieBaba

Someone. Help. This person is so ignorant I don't even know where to start.

And I don't really want to.

Oglim or whatever your name is....THE basic Christian premise, that has been the same since Christ's time, is that SALVATION IS PERSONAL AND MUST BE DONE FREELY. That hasn't changed. It's not a new thing. Other things have come and gone....corrupt rulers, societal fads, different dogma...but the NT has always maintained, and Christ maintained, that salvation must take place only at the behest of the person being saved.

The rest of your blather has nothing to do wtih that. You are the one who is attempting to revise history by saying it's a *NEW* concept. It's not new at all, you blithering fuckwit...it's the oldest and most significant concept that Christianity has to offer. 

So go showcase your supreme ignorance elsewhere...nobody here is impressed by your references to the Inquisition and whatever other silliness you have to offer up.  The truth is, personal Salvation and the concept that it can only be achieved by the person being saved, when they freely ask for it, predates any of those silly references you made.


----------



## ogibillm

AllieBaba said:


> Someone. Help. This person is so ignorant I don't even know where to start.
> 
> And I don't really want to.
> 
> Oglim or whatever your name is....THE basic Christian premise, that has been the same since Christ's time, is that SALVATION IS PERSONAL AND MUST BE DONE FREELY. That hasn't changed. It's not a new thing. Other things have come and gone....corrupt rulers, societal fads, different dogma...but the NT has always maintained, and Christ maintained, that salvation must take place only at the behest of the person being saved.
> 
> The rest of your blather has nothing to do wtih that. You are the one who is attempting to revise history by saying it's a *NEW* concept. It's not new at all, you blithering fuckwit...it's the oldest and most significant concept that Christianity has to offer.
> 
> So go showcase your supreme ignorance elsewhere...nobody here is impressed by your references to the Inquisition and whatever other silliness you have to offer up.  The truth is, personal Salvation and the concept that it can only be achieved by the person being saved, when they freely ask for it, predates any of those silly references you made.



for the oldest and most significant christian value it hasn't been practiced for very long.

so although it may have been a christian tenant, it was not a christian value, at least not until the enlightenment.


----------



## AllieBaba

Christian TENET, not tenant. A tenant lives in a rental.

It has always been a tenet of Christianity. A value? A non-issue.


----------



## ogibillm

AllieBaba said:


> Christian TENET, not tenant. A tenant lives in a rental.
> 
> It has always been a tenet of Christianity. A value? A non-issue.


sorry about my spelling. getting lazy late in the day.

okay - so it's always been a christian tenet.

but you started this thread saying we were founded on christian values...

since freedom of religion and faith by choice wasn't a christian value at the time it sure seems as if you're mistaken in labeling that particular value as christian in nature.


----------



## AllieBaba

Oh, I thought we were talking about your statement that free will is a new Christian tenet, not an old one.

It is an old one.

And all the founding fathers agreed that they must build our country upon that, and other, Christian tenets.


----------



## ogibillm

AllieBaba said:


> Oh, I thought we were talking about your statement that free will is a new Christian tenet, not an old one.
> 
> It is an old one.
> 
> And all the founding fathers agreed that they must build our country upon that, and other, Christian tenets.



gee, that's not what your thread title says. your thread title says they built it on christian values.

and i'd really be interested to see what christian tenets you believe the country to be founded on.


----------



## AllieBaba

Great another retard who thinks that when they obfuscate and broadcast their ignorance, they're *winning*.


----------



## ogibillm

AllieBaba said:


> Great another retard who thinks that when they obfuscate and broadcast their ignorance, they're *winning*.



so which was it founded on - tenets or values?

if as you say the tenets have been the same from the beginning it must be the values that have changed.

even so, i don't believe that freedom of religion is a tenet of christianity. a value perhaps but is that really of christianity or western civilization at this point in history?


----------



## AllieBaba

Who said freedom of religion was a tenet of Christianity?
Tenets and values are pretty much interchangeable.


----------



## AllieBaba

tenet
Definition
ten·et
[ ténn&#601;t ]
http://www.bing.com/caption/image/?bid=yCvB6rfJRFKJKg&bn=EDPG&form=DTPDIOTo hear the pronunciation, install Silverlight


ten·etsPlural

NOUN 

1. 
something accepted as important truth: an established fundamental belief, especially one relating to religion or politics "a basic tenet of Christianity"  
Value:
PLURAL NOUN 

1. 
principles or standards: the accepted principles or standards of a person or a group


----------



## AllieBaba

Hope that helps you in your quest for knowledge and truth.


----------



## Flopper

AllieBaba said:


> I don't know, but it's alarming. I would have thought that anyone can learn, but I see over and over that there are people who reach a certain level and decide to stay..right...there. They have no desire to learn anything more, to review their own understanding of the world, or even to be truthful or correct
> 
> I don't see how people can live like that.


You still have not defined those Christian values and principals that you claim the country was founded on.


----------



## AllieBaba

Gosh, since I haven't listed any, they must not exist.


----------



## Flopper

Unless you can define the Christian principals you claim the nation was founded on, further discussion is pointless.


----------



## AllieBaba

No, it's not. 
All I had to do was prove that America was founded upon Christian values.

I proved that, using the words of the founding fathers.

If you want to take it further and figure out exactly what Christian values the country is founded upon (all of them) then go right ahead.


----------



## AllieBaba

"And the ideals on which they framed the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution &#8212; that man is subject to the laws of nature and of nature&#8217;s God, that God created man equal and endowed him with basic unalienable rights, that human nature is sinful and therefore government power must be carefully restrained by the Constitution &#8212; are ideals that they derived, directly or indirectly, from the Bible. Some of these ideals may be shared by those of other religious traditions. But the Founding Fathers, with few exceptions, did not read the Koran, or the Upanishads, or the Bagavigita. They read the Bible, and they heard the Bible preached on Sunday mornings."



Obama: America Not a Christian Nation


----------



## rightwinger

AllieBaba said:


> "And the ideals on which they framed the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution  that man is subject to the laws of nature and of natures God, that God created man equal and endowed him with basic unalienable rights, that human nature is sinful and therefore government power must be carefully restrained by the Constitution  are ideals that they derived, directly or indirectly, from the Bible. Some of these ideals may be shared by those of other religious traditions. But the Founding Fathers, with few exceptions, did not read the Koran, or the Upanishads, or the Bagavigita. They read the Bible, and they heard the Bible preached on Sunday mornings."
> 
> 
> 
> Obama: America Not a Christian Nation



Nobody question that the founding fathers were Christians..

You have yet to establish any "Christian values" that are not present in other religions or predated Christianity


----------



## peach174

rightwinger said:


> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm afraid what you said was either an outright lie or a simplistic Christian interpretation of how our country was founded.
> Our country is a Republic and the majority does not rule over the minority. The majority selects representatives who make the rules. Our courts protect the rights of the minority.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you actually believe that Muslims, Jews and Atheists traded off their religious freedoms in return for Christians being be the root of our nation? You can only have religious freedoms if you agree Christians are the root of the nation?
> 
> That is an embarassment to the principles this country was founded upon
> 
> 
> 
> 
> YOU ARE NOT GETTING IT
> Muslims,Jews and Atheists did not trade off anything for their freedom.
> You dropped the part where I said there is a connection between God and Liberty.
> Our political and human rights come from a power higher than human government.
> This was the very basis of our constitutional government.
> You must have Biblical morality or liberty cannot survive without a divine connection.
> This is why schools taught the bible and our courts had the ten commandments displayed.
> the most important of them was to honor your parents, then,
> you shall not commit murder, nor adultery, or steal and to have a good relationship with your neighbor.
> It is all about not hurting others.
> Its about freedom for all of us as a society by teaching these commandments.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wow......boy were you indoctrinated
> 
> Do you really believe there could be no Liberty without biblical morality?  Do you think those who do not follow the bible cannot be moral?
> 
> Ten commandments in schools?  Have you ever read them?  If so, why do you think they should be taught in schools? REALLY read them and tell me why ALL children should be forced to learn them
Click to expand...



This is not indoctrination it is factual American history for the foundation of our constitution.

Do you think it is OK to murder someone? 
Do you think it is OK to steal?
Even atheists follow theses basic morals in order to have civility in society.
You have to have morals to have freedom or the alternative is complete government control,in which you have no freedom,you become slaves and robots.
Look at what is happening, people are beating each other up at fast food restaurants because their isn't any salt shakers or syrup, no one cares about about each other anymore, this is what happens without morals. A breakdown in civility. 
The bible was taught in schools from the beginning of this nation up until 1963 and they were taught how to behave in society. They were not forced into anything, they were taught,just like any other subject.
By your point of view we are forced to learn.
We are forced to learn science,math,history?
You are the one who has been indoctrinated to believe in socialism,I don't want the government to tell me what I can and can not do,I believe in freedom from government.


----------



## rightwinger

peach174 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> 
> YOU ARE NOT GETTING IT
> Muslims,Jews and Atheists did not trade off anything for their freedom.
> You dropped the part where I said there is a connection between God and Liberty.
> Our political and human rights come from a power higher than human government.
> This was the very basis of our constitutional government.
> You must have Biblical morality or liberty cannot survive without a divine connection.
> This is why schools taught the bible and our courts had the ten commandments displayed.
> the most important of them was to honor your parents, then,
> you shall not commit murder, nor adultery, or steal and to have a good relationship with your neighbor.
> It is all about not hurting others.
> Its about freedom for all of us as a society by teaching these commandments.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow......boy were you indoctrinated
> 
> Do you really believe there could be no Liberty without biblical morality?  Do you think those who do not follow the bible cannot be moral?
> 
> Ten commandments in schools?  Have you ever read them?  If so, why do you think they should be taught in schools? REALLY read them and tell me why ALL children should be forced to learn them
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> This is not indoctrination it is factual American history for the foundation of our constitution.
> 
> Do you think it is OK to murder someone?
> Do you think it is OK to steal?
> Even atheists follow theses basic morals in order to have civility in society.
> You have to have morals to have freedom or the alternative is complete government control,in which you have no freedom,you become slaves and robots.
> Look at what is happening, people are beating each other up at fast food restaurants because their isn't any salt shakers or syrup, no one cares about about each other anymore, this is what happens without morals. A breakdown in civility.
> The bible was taught in schools from the beginning of this nation up until 1963 and they were taught how to behave in society. They were not forced into anything, they were taught,just like any other subject.
> By your point of view we are forced to learn.
> We are forced to learn science,math,history?
> You are the one who has been indoctrinated to believe in socialism,I don't want the government to tell me what I can and can not do,I believe in freedom from government.
Click to expand...


I suggested you actually read the ten commandments before you suggest they be taught in our schools. Obviously you haven't. Do you really think societies would not know it is wrong to kill and steal if it weren't in the Ten Commandments?

The first four commandments directly relate to the establishment of religion and are not morals. Schools cannot tell children how they should worship. You wouldn't like it if schools taught your children that Jesus was not the son of god or that god did not exist. That is your job...not the schools


----------



## AllieBaba

rightwinger said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> 
> "And the ideals on which they framed the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution  that man is subject to the laws of nature and of natures God, that God created man equal and endowed him with basic unalienable rights, that human nature is sinful and therefore government power must be carefully restrained by the Constitution  are ideals that they derived, directly or indirectly, from the Bible. Some of these ideals may be shared by those of other religious traditions. But the Founding Fathers, with few exceptions, did not read the Koran, or the Upanishads, or the Bagavigita. They read the Bible, and they heard the Bible preached on Sunday mornings."
> 
> 
> 
> Obama: America Not a Christian Nation
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody question that the founding fathers were Christians..
> 
> You have yet to establish any "Christian values" that are not present in other religions or predated Christianity
Click to expand...

 
Actually, liewinger, people have questioned repeatedly that the ff were Christians. 

But I wasn't arguing that. I was asked to name the ideals because there are posters who seem to think that's in question:


"]"*And the ideals on which they framed the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution  that man is subject to the laws of nature and of natures God, that God created man equal and endowed him with basic unalienable rights, that human nature is sinful and therefore government power must be carefully restrained by the Constitution  are ideals that they derived, directly or indirectly, from the Bible*."

For some reason there are a couple of trolls who don't understand what Christian values are, and have tried to disrupt this and other threads by continually asking for them. It was summed up nicely here, so I posted it.


----------



## ogibillm

rightwinger said:


> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow......boy were you indoctrinated
> 
> Do you really believe there could be no Liberty without biblical morality?  Do you think those who do not follow the bible cannot be moral?
> 
> Ten commandments in schools?  Have you ever read them?  If so, why do you think they should be taught in schools? REALLY read them and tell me why ALL children should be forced to learn them
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is not indoctrination it is factual American history for the foundation of our constitution.
> 
> Do you think it is OK to murder someone?
> Do you think it is OK to steal?
> Even atheists follow theses basic morals in order to have civility in society.
> You have to have morals to have freedom or the alternative is complete government control,in which you have no freedom,you become slaves and robots.
> Look at what is happening, people are beating each other up at fast food restaurants because their isn't any salt shakers or syrup, no one cares about about each other anymore, this is what happens without morals. A breakdown in civility.
> The bible was taught in schools from the beginning of this nation up until 1963 and they were taught how to behave in society. They were not forced into anything, they were taught,just like any other subject.
> By your point of view we are forced to learn.
> We are forced to learn science,math,history?
> You are the one who has been indoctrinated to believe in socialism,I don't want the government to tell me what I can and can not do,I believe in freedom from government.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I suggested you actually read the ten commandments before you suggest they be taught in our schools. Obviously you haven't. Do you really think societies would not know it is wrong to kill and steal if it weren't in the Ten Commandments?
> 
> The first four commandments directly relate to the establishment of religion and are not morals. Schools cannot tell children how they should worship. You wouldn't like it if schools taught your children that Jesus was not the son of god or that god did not exist. That is your job...not the schools
Click to expand...


perhaps he needs to read the code of hammurabi


----------



## peach174

rightwinger said:


> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow......boy were you indoctrinated
> 
> Do you really believe there could be no Liberty without biblical morality?  Do you think those who do not follow the bible cannot be moral?
> 
> Ten commandments in schools?  Have you ever read them?  If so, why do you think they should be taught in schools? REALLY read them and tell me why ALL children should be forced to learn them
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is not indoctrination it is factual American history for the foundation of our constitution.
> 
> Do you think it is OK to murder someone?
> Do you think it is OK to steal?
> Even atheists follow theses basic morals in order to have civility in society.
> You have to have morals to have freedom or the alternative is complete government control,in which you have no freedom,you become slaves and robots.
> Look at what is happening, people are beating each other up at fast food restaurants because their isn't any salt shakers or syrup, no one cares about about each other anymore, this is what happens without morals. A breakdown in civility.
> The bible was taught in schools from the beginning of this nation up until 1963 and they were taught how to behave in society. They were not forced into anything, they were taught,just like any other subject.
> By your point of view we are forced to learn.
> We are forced to learn science,math,history?
> You are the one who has been indoctrinated to believe in socialism,I don't want the government to tell me what I can and can not do,I believe in freedom from government.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I suggested you actually read the ten commandments before you suggest they be taught in our schools. Obviously you haven't. Do you really think societies would not know it is wrong to kill and steal if it weren't in the Ten Commandments?
> 
> The first four commandments directly relate to the establishment of religion and are not morals. Schools cannot tell children how they should worship. You wouldn't like it if schools taught your children that Jesus was not the son of god or that god did not exist. That is your job...not the schools
Click to expand...


I know the commandments very well.
Have you seen how our society has become?
We have people beating each other up over stupid things , like no salt or syrup in fast food restaurants, many people who have no respect for authority any more, people in N.Y. just walking by and ignoring  a victim who was shot and dieing.
Our society is breaking down because of a lack of principals and morals.
You must have biblical morality or liberty cannot survive. You don't need to be Regulus, go to church etc. or to even have a belief in God but you have to have morals and principles which is based in biblical morality in order to govern yourself.
The alternative is complete government control over the people of which I do not want.


----------



## rightwinger

peach174 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is not indoctrination it is factual American history for the foundation of our constitution.
> 
> Do you think it is OK to murder someone?
> Do you think it is OK to steal?
> Even atheists follow theses basic morals in order to have civility in society.
> You have to have morals to have freedom or the alternative is complete government control,in which you have no freedom,you become slaves and robots.
> Look at what is happening, people are beating each other up at fast food restaurants because their isn't any salt shakers or syrup, no one cares about about each other anymore, this is what happens without morals. A breakdown in civility.
> The bible was taught in schools from the beginning of this nation up until 1963 and they were taught how to behave in society. They were not forced into anything, they were taught,just like any other subject.
> By your point of view we are forced to learn.
> We are forced to learn science,math,history?
> You are the one who has been indoctrinated to believe in socialism,I don't want the government to tell me what I can and can not do,I believe in freedom from government.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I suggested you actually read the ten commandments before you suggest they be taught in our schools. Obviously you haven't. Do you really think societies would not know it is wrong to kill and steal if it weren't in the Ten Commandments?
> 
> The first four commandments directly relate to the establishment of religion and are not morals. Schools cannot tell children how they should worship. You wouldn't like it if schools taught your children that Jesus was not the son of god or that god did not exist. That is your job...not the schools
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I know the commandments very well.
> Have you seen how our society has become?
> We have people beating each other up over stupid things , like no salt or syrup in fast food restaurants, many people who have no respect for authority any more, people in N.Y. just walking by and ignoring  a victim who was shot and dieing.
> Our society is breaking down because of a lack of principals and morals.
> You must have biblical morality or liberty cannot survive. You don't need to be Regulus, go to church etc. or to even have a belief in God but you have to have morals and principles which is based in biblical morality in order to govern yourself.
> The alternative is complete government control over the people of which I do not want.
Click to expand...


How moral was our society in 1963?

- Blacks were openly beaten and lynched
- Homosexuals were beaten without repercussion
- Women and children were subjected to domestic abuse and it was ignored as a "family issue"
- Schools and businesses were openly segregated

How did the morals of the Bible being taught in school do at preventing these abuses?  As a society, we are more moral now than we were in 1963


----------



## ogibillm

rightwinger said:


> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> I suggested you actually read the ten commandments before you suggest they be taught in our schools. Obviously you haven't. Do you really think societies would not know it is wrong to kill and steal if it weren't in the Ten Commandments?
> 
> The first four commandments directly relate to the establishment of religion and are not morals. Schools cannot tell children how they should worship. You wouldn't like it if schools taught your children that Jesus was not the son of god or that god did not exist. That is your job...not the schools
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know the commandments very well.
> Have you seen how our society has become?
> We have people beating each other up over stupid things , like no salt or syrup in fast food restaurants, many people who have no respect for authority any more, people in N.Y. just walking by and ignoring  a victim who was shot and dieing.
> Our society is breaking down because of a lack of principals and morals.
> You must have biblical morality or liberty cannot survive. You don't need to be Regulus, go to church etc. or to even have a belief in God but you have to have morals and principles which is based in biblical morality in order to govern yourself.
> The alternative is complete government control over the people of which I do not want.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How moral was our society in 1963?
> 
> - Blacks were openly beaten and lynched
> - Homosexuals were beaten without repercussion
> - Women and children were subjected to domestic abuse and it was ignored as a "family issue"
> - Schools and businesses were openly segregated
> 
> How did the morals of the Bible being taught in school do at preventing these abuses?  As a society, we are more moral now than we were in 1963
Click to expand...


morality is a subjective thing - so is one's view of the past.


----------



## peach174

rightwinger said:


> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> I suggested you actually read the ten commandments before you suggest they be taught in our schools. Obviously you haven't. Do you really think societies would not know it is wrong to kill and steal if it weren't in the Ten Commandments?
> 
> The first four commandments directly relate to the establishment of religion and are not morals. Schools cannot tell children how they should worship. You wouldn't like it if schools taught your children that Jesus was not the son of god or that god did not exist. That is your job...not the schools
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know the commandments very well.
> Have you seen how our society has become?
> We have people beating each other up over stupid things , like no salt or syrup in fast food restaurants, many people who have no respect for authority any more, people in N.Y. just walking by and ignoring  a victim who was shot and dieing.
> Our society is breaking down because of a lack of principals and morals.
> You must have biblical morality or liberty cannot survive. You don't need to be Regulus, go to church etc. or to even have a belief in God but you have to have morals and principles which is based in biblical morality in order to govern yourself.
> The alternative is complete government control over the people of which I do not want.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How moral was our society in 1963?
> 
> - Blacks were openly beaten and lynched
> - Homosexuals were beaten without repercussion
> - Women and children were subjected to domestic abuse and it was ignored as a "family issue"
> - Schools and businesses were openly segregated
> 
> How did the morals of the Bible being taught in school do at preventing these abuses?  As a society, we are more moral now than we were in 1963
Click to expand...


The above is bigoted opinion's of mankind and needed to be changed and was changed.
You are confusing opinion's with morals.
Morals were better -
Everyone respected our police except the criminals,
Everyone did not need to lock their doors.
Children could play outside without parents worrying about them.
Business men could shake hands on a business deal's,knowing that by their word the deal would be done and not broken.


----------



## rightwinger

peach174 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know the commandments very well.
> Have you seen how our society has become?
> We have people beating each other up over stupid things , like no salt or syrup in fast food restaurants, many people who have no respect for authority any more, people in N.Y. just walking by and ignoring  a victim who was shot and dieing.
> Our society is breaking down because of a lack of principals and morals.
> You must have biblical morality or liberty cannot survive. You don't need to be Regulus, go to church etc. or to even have a belief in God but you have to have morals and principles which is based in biblical morality in order to govern yourself.
> The alternative is complete government control over the people of which I do not want.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How moral was our society in 1963?
> 
> - Blacks were openly beaten and lynched
> - Homosexuals were beaten without repercussion
> - Women and children were subjected to domestic abuse and it was ignored as a "family issue"
> - Schools and businesses were openly segregated
> 
> How did the morals of the Bible being taught in school do at preventing these abuses?  As a society, we are more moral now than we were in 1963
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The above is bigoted opinion's of mankind and needed to be changed and was changed.
> You are confusing opinion's with morals.
> Morals were better -
> Everyone respected our police except the criminals,
> Everyone did not need to lock their doors.
> Children could play outside without parents worrying about them.
> Business men could shake hands on a business deal's,knowing that by their word the deal would be done and not broken.
Click to expand...


People who beat up and killed blacks and homosexuals went to public schools with the ten commandments and a daily prayer....so did the police and courts that let them act with immunity.

Not a moral society by a long shot. 

I lived in the 60s and I vastly prefer the morality of people today. Not even close


----------



## peach174

rightwinger said:


> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> How moral was our society in 1963?
> 
> - Blacks were openly beaten and lynched
> - Homosexuals were beaten without repercussion
> - Women and children were subjected to domestic abuse and it was ignored as a "family issue"
> - Schools and businesses were openly segregated
> 
> How did the morals of the Bible being taught in school do at preventing these abuses?  As a society, we are more moral now than we were in 1963
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The above is bigoted opinion's of mankind and needed to be changed and was changed.
> You are confusing opinion's with morals.
> Morals were better -
> Everyone respected our police except the criminals,
> Everyone did not need to lock their doors.
> Children could play outside without parents worrying about them.
> Business men could shake hands on a business deals,knowing that by their word the deal would be done and not broken.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> People who beat up and killed blacks and homosexuals went to public schools with the ten commandments and a daily prayer....so did the police and courts that let them act with immunity.
> 
> Not a moral society by a long shot.
> 
> I lived in the 60s and I vastly prefer the morality of people today. Not even close
Click to expand...


You are still citing opinion about blacks and homo's not morals
So you like todays society?
Children killing each other over tennis shoes?
Huge gangs killing each other and innocents
Having to have bars on your windows and surveillance camera's
Everyone cheating on one another
Companies ripping off the American people
Children who can't trick or treat because of razor blades in their candy


----------



## rightwinger

So you like todays society?

Children killing each other over tennis shoes?
Children killing eachother because they are black or gay

Huge gangs killing each other and innocents
Gangs of KKK pulling people out of their beds and lynching them

Having to have bars on your windows and surveillance camera's
Having bricks thrown through your window because you were an upity black

Everyone cheating on one another
Hasn't changed

Companies ripping off the American people
Companies openly dumping toxic chemicals in our rivers and air

Children who can't trick or treat because of razor blades in their candy 
 Children who couldn't trick or treat if they went to the wrong neighborhood


----------



## peach174

Well I see that you do not understand the difference between bigoted,biased opinion and morals.


----------



## JBeukema

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSlGsQnuvRE]YouTube - &#x202a;Ancient Mystery School Symbols of the Illuminati and the New World Order&#x202c;&rlm;[/ame]


----------



## beowolfe

> Despite the words of the FF to the contrary, despite the fact that almost every state constitution refers to God, despite the fact that our Declaration refers to God, the revisionists want to say that we were not founded upon Christian values.



You're confusing God with religion.  They are two very very different things.


----------



## AllieBaba

No, I'm not confusing either. The revisionists are. They think that founding upon Christian principle is the same thing as establishing a theocracy.

It's not. It's a fundamental lack of reading comprehension.


----------

