# Marxism



## Thunderbird

Why do some people still cling to Marxism? Marx's system is outdated nonsense.

Bertrand Russell wrote: Marx professed himself an atheist, but retained a cosmic optimism which only theism could justify. Broadly speaking, all the elements in Marx's philosophy which are derived from Hegel are unscientific, in the sense that there is no reason whatever to suppose them true.

Historian Paul Johnson wrote: The truth is, even the most superficial inquiry into Marx’s use of evidence forces one to treat with scepticism everything he wrote which relies on factual data. He can never be trusted. The whole of the key Chapter Eight of Capital is a deliberate and systematic falsification to prove a thesis which an objective examination of the facts showed was untenable.

Marx's predictions regarding inevitable violent revolution in the advanced countries are plainly false.

John Maynard Keynes called_ Das Kapital_ "an obsolete economic textbook, which I know to be not only scientifically erroneous but without interest or application for the modern world."

Marx was himself intolerant and in love with violence and so is the movement he created.

Marx: We have no compassion and we ask no compassion from you. When our turn comes, we shall not make excuses for the terror.

Marx and his followers wanted to create a dictatorship. They only pretended to care about the people to gain support. Marxists starved the people and stopped them from electing their leaders.

Mikhail Bakunin described a state built according to the Marxian plan: For the proletariat this will, in reality, be nothing but a barracks: a regime, where regimented workingmen and women will sleep, wake, work, and live to the beat of a drum; where the shrewd and educated will be granted government privileges; and where the mercenary-minded, attracted by the immensity of the international speculations of the state bank, will find a vast field for lucrative, underhanded dealings.


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## Thunderbird

Communist atrocities:

Lenin Paints Himself Black With His Own Words

The Black Book of Communism

Opinion | Mao's Great Leap to Famine

Communism is similar to Fascism & Nazism but even worse.


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## Thunderbird

Stalin, together with his ally Hitler, started the bloodiest war in human history in 1939.


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## Thunderbird

Here are some facts about the Holodomor, Stalin's engineered famine which killed millions: Ukrainian 'Holodomor' (man-made famine)  Facts and History


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## Thunderbird

The Italian revolutionary Giuseppe Mazzini called Marx “a destructive spirit whose heart was filled with hatred rather than love of mankind"

Mazzini also said Marx was "extraordinarily sly, shifty and taciturn. Marx is very jealous of his authority as leader of the Party; against his political rivals and opponents he is vindictive and implacable; he does not rest until he has beaten them down; his overriding characteristic is boundless ambition and thirst for power. Despite the communist egalitarianism which he preaches he is the absolute ruler of his party; admittedly he does everything himself but he is also the only one to give orders and he tolerates no opposition".


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## Thunderbird

Marx's partner Friedrich Engels also can't be trusted .

Friedrich Engels and the England of the 1840s | History Today


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## Inmar

You're a complete jerk.


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## Picaro

Marx himself abandoned his theories when Carl Menger and others began publishing their work; he couldn't rebut their data without looking like a fool. Marxism was kept alive by Engels, who as a publisher stood the make the most off of it, both financially and popularity wise, as a 'star' of the milieu. The reason it's still popular is because of its Xian hate and its perfect system of oppression and totalitarianism so admired by sociopaths everywhere, and non-Germans who don't find Nazism a good fit, as it's too ethnic' for broad appeal, and is essentially the same thing in practice.


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## Comrade Johnson

Thunderbird said:


> Why do some people still cling to Marxism? Marx's system is outdated nonsense.



Absolutely. A kind of Fascism.


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## TNHarley

Inmar said:


> You're a complete jerk.


why


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## Comrade Johnson

TNHarley said:


> Inmar said:
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> You're a complete jerk.
> 
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> 
> why
Click to expand...


Because, Inmar is a great patriot of the Soviet Union, where this shit was an official idealogy.  He believes that Stalin saved the world from Nazies, communists are good and everybody who disagrees is a jerk


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## Selivan

я вааще фигею...
таких "топикстартеров" надо в Сибирь отправлять снег чистить, а они тут типа "дискуссии" разводят
------------------
уверен, что ОНО - "древний УКР"


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## regent

How old is Marx?
Republicans have been running against Marx all my life, and I hope Marx dies pretty soon so we can attend to America and America's problems.


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## Thunderbird

Russia without Communism is great!






And there's Russian writers, Russian scientists, Russian music, etc.


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## Tehon

Thunderbird said:


> Marx's system is outdated nonsense.



Nonsense! The very fact that you are cheering on Trump exposes your lie that Marx is outdated. You're just not equipped to understand what is really transpiring in our world.



What is free trade, what is free trade under the present condition of society? It is freedom of capital. When you have overthrown the few national barriers which still restrict the progress of capital, you will merely have given it complete freedom of action. ...

But, in general, the protective system of our day is conservative, while the free trade system is destructive. It breaks up old nationalities and pushes the antagonism of the proletariat and the bourgeoisie to the extreme point. In a word, the free trade system hastens the social revolution. It is in this revolutionary sense alone, gentlemen, that I vote in favor of free trade.

Marx & Engels, On Free Trade (1848)


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## Thunderbird

Tehon said:


> Nonsense! The very fact that you are cheering on Trump exposes your lie that Marx is outdated. You're just not equipped to understand what is really transpiring in our world.


​Marx & Engels believed that capitalism inevitably leads to widespread misery and violent revolution.  Their belief is contrary to logic and evidence, it is just a superstition. Capitalism has in fact raised hundreds of millions of people out of poverty. No advanced capitalist country has ever endured a violent Communist revolution.

Some people think that capitalism should be combined with various government programs.  Notice that Marx & Engels also oppose these reformers. Marx & Engels don't want improvement, which they believe will delay their mythical Communist utopia.

So Marx's legacy is:

1) An irrational hatred of free markets
2) Opposition to reforms which might improve society
3) Devotion to violent revolutions which only bring tyranny



> In a word, the free trade system hastens the social revolution. It is in this revolutionary sense alone, gentlemen, that I vote in favor of free trade.


Regarding open borders, it's Marx & globalist corporations vs. Trump & working folk.


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## Tehon

Thunderbird said:


> So Marx's legacy is:
> 
> 1) An irrational hatred of free markets


This statement is ignorant. Read what Marx intended to say at the Free Trade Congress in 1847. You will see that there was no irrational hatred of free trade but instead a healthy understanding of it and he states unequivocally that he does not favor protectionism.
http://www.slp.org/pdf/marx/free-trade.pdf



Thunderbird said:


> 2) Opposition to reforms which might improve society


He does not believe in stopgaps that do not remedy the problem of exploitation. History has proven him correct. All of FDR's reforms are under attack.



Thunderbird said:


> 3) Devotion to violent revolutions which only bring tyranny


He did not promote violence as a means of revolution. He merely understood that historically, social upheavals are accompanied by it. It is inevitable that the capitalist class will resort to violence in protecting their wealth. History has shown this to be true as well.



Thunderbird said:


> Regarding open borders, it's Marx & globalist corporations vs. Trump & working folk.


So Marx wasn't for the working folk? You discredit yourself.

And you further discredit yourself by maintaining the mistaken belief that Trump is.


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## Thunderbird

Tehon said:


> He does not believe in stopgaps that do not remedy the problem of exploitation. History has proven him correct. All of FDR's reforms are under attack.


But as a Marxist you should oppose these reforms! And government non-military spending is as large as ever.


> He did not promote violence as a means of revolution. He merely understood that historically, social upheavals are accompanied by it. It is inevitable that the capitalist class will resort to violence in protecting their wealth. History has shown this to be true as well.


You admit that according to Marx's crackpot theories violent revolutions are inevitable.


> So Marx wasn't for the working folk? You discredit yourself.


Marxists who have established murderous dictatorships and starved working folk have discredited your movement.


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## Tehon

Thunderbird said:


> But as a Marxist you should oppose these reforms! And government non-military spending is as large as ever.


What makes you think I don't. For instance, I oppose the democrat's efforts to arbitrarily raise the minimum wage.


Thunderbird said:


> You admit that according to Marx's crackpot theories violent revolutions are inevitable.


Admitting that societal upheavals are often accompanied by violence is not the same as devotion to violence as a means of revolution, which is what you suggested.


Thunderbird said:


> Marxists who have established murderous dictatorships and starved working folk have discredited your movement.


Only in the minds of people who have been convinced that there is no alternative to capitalism.


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## HenryBHough

Q.  What do John F. Kennedy and Karl Marx have in common?

A.  Neither would be allowed membership in today's Democrat Party.

Q.  Why?

A.  Their politics are far too much to the _*right*_.


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## Thunderbird

regent said:


> How old is Marx?
> Republicans have been running against Marx all my life, and I hope Marx dies pretty soon so we can attend to America and America's problems.


Marx is still influential within government bureaucracies, the media, and especially academia. Some twisted bureaucrats, celebrities, and academics hope to acquire power via Marxism.

The people of some countries (including powerful China) are still exploited by Communist dictators.


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## ding

Thunderbird said:


> Why do some people still cling to Marxism?


Socialism intentionally denies examination because it is irrational. There is no formal defined dogma of socialism. Instead there is only a vague, rosy notion of something good, noble and just: the advent of these things will bring instant euphoria and a social order beyond reproach. Socialism seeks equality through uniformity and communal ownership Socialism has an extraordinary ability to incite and inflame its adherents and inspire social movements. Socialists dismiss their defeats and ignore their incongruities. They desire big government and use big government to implement their morally relativistic social policies. Socialism is a religion. The religious nature of socialism explains their hostility towards traditional religions which is that of one rival religion over another. Their dogma is based on materialism, primitive instincts, atheism and the deification of man. They see no distinction between good and evil, no morality or any other kind of value, save pleasure. They practice moral relativity, indiscriminate indiscriminateness, multiculturalism, cultural Marxism and normalization of deviance. They worship science but are the first to reject it when it suits their purposes. They can be identified by an external locus of control. Their religious doctrine is abolition of private property, abolition of family, abolition of religion and equality via uniformity and communal ownership. They practice critical theory which is the Cultural Marxist theory to criticize what they do not believe to arrive at what they do believe without ever having to examine what they believe. They confuse critical theory for critical thinking. Critical thinking is the practice of challenging what one does believe to test its validity. Something they never do.


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## JakeStarkey

The great majority of American professionals are post-Marxist.

Thunderbird is beating a dead horse.

However, he may find  if the Alt Right keeps fulminating against inevitable social change, there will be social upheaval, one they will suffer from badly.


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## Thunderbird

JakeStarkey said:


> The great majority of American professionals are post-Marxist.
> 
> Thunderbird is beating a dead horse.


Pseudo-scientific crackpots like Marx and Freud are still influential.

| Marx Most Influential Academic of All Time, Says ScienceCritical-Theory.com

Why does Marx linger?  I think the reason is obvious. Marxism serves the class interests of academics and bureaucrats who want to control and exploit the people.



> However, he may find  if the Alt Right keeps fulminating against inevitable social change, there will be social upheaval, one they will suffer from badly.


Why do you feel that history is moving inevitably in a certain direction?

Are you fulminating against the billionaires? Remember many of them are Democrats.


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## Tehon

Thunderbird said:


> Why does Marx linger? I think the reason is obvious. Marxism serves the class interests of academics and bureaucrats who want to control and exploit the people.


The reason is that people who have actually taken the time to read and understand him can see the truth in his philosophy.

All you have is conspiracy theory as you cling to your ignorance.


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## Thunderbird

Tehon said:


> Thunderbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why does Marx linger? I think the reason is obvious. Marxism serves the class interests of academics and bureaucrats who want to control and exploit the people.
> 
> 
> 
> The reason is that people who have actually taken the time to read and understand him can see the truth in his philosophy.
> 
> All you have is conspiracy theory as you cling to your ignorance.
Click to expand...

You love Marxist dictatorships so much maybe you should send Marx something special for Valentine's Day.


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## JakeStarkey

Thunderbird said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thunderbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why does Marx linger? I think the reason is obvious. Marxism serves the class interests of academics and bureaucrats who want to control and exploit the people.
> 
> 
> 
> The reason is that people who have actually taken the time to read and understand him can see the truth in his philosophy.
> 
> All you have is conspiracy theory as you cling to your ignorance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You love Marxist dictatorships so much maybe you should send Marx something special for Valentine's Day.
Click to expand...

Are you 11?


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## The Sage of Main Street

Thunderbird said:


> Why do some people still cling to Marxism? Marx's system is outdated nonsense.
> 
> Bertrand Russell wrote: Marx professed himself an atheist, but retained a cosmic optimism which only theism could justify. Broadly speaking, all the elements in Marx's philosophy which are derived from Hegel are unscientific, in the sense that there is no reason whatever to suppose them true.
> 
> Historian Paul Johnson wrote: The truth is, even the most superficial inquiry into Marx’s use of evidence forces one to treat with scepticism everything he wrote which relies on factual data. He can never be trusted. The whole of the key Chapter Eight of Capital is a deliberate and systematic falsification to prove a thesis which an objective examination of the facts showed was untenable.
> 
> Marx's predictions regarding inevitable violent revolution in the advanced countries are plainly false.
> 
> John Maynard Keynes called_ Das Kapital_ "an obsolete economic textbook, which I know to be not only scientifically erroneous but without interest or application for the modern world."
> 
> Marx was himself intolerant and in love with violence and so is the movement he created.
> 
> Marx: We have no compassion and we ask no compassion from you. When our turn comes, we shall not make excuses for the terror.
> 
> Marx and his followers wanted to create a dictatorship. They only pretended to care about the people to gain support. Marxists starved the people and stopped them from electing their leaders.
> 
> Mikhail Bakunin described a state built according to the Marxian plan: For the proletariat this will, in reality, be nothing but a barracks: a regime, where regimented workingmen and women will sleep, wake, work, and live to the beat of a drum; where the shrewd and educated will be granted government privileges; and where the mercenary-minded, attracted by the immensity of the international speculations of the state bank, will find a vast field for lucrative, underhanded dealings.


*The Tumor of Hereditary Status*

Marx was the sex slave of a Patty Hearst type duchess, Jenny *Von *Westphalen.


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## The Sage of Main Street

Thunderbird said:


> The Italian revolutionary Giuseppe Mazzini called Marx “a destructive spirit whose heart was filled with hatred rather than love of mankind"
> 
> Mazzini also said Marx was "extraordinarily sly, shifty and taciturn. Marx is very jealous of his authority as leader of the Party; against his political rivals and opponents he is vindictive and implacable; he does not rest until he has beaten them down; his overriding characteristic is boundless ambition and thirst for power. Despite the communist egalitarianism which he preaches he is the absolute ruler of his party; admittedly he does everything himself but he is also the only one to give orders and he tolerates no opposition".


*The Race Must Go to the Fastest, Not the Fatherest*

Richkids like Master Karl all have a "Born to Rule" attitude.  They block our way, so we must run them over.


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## The Sage of Main Street

Thunderbird said:


> Marx's partner Friedrich Engels also can't be trusted .
> 
> Friedrich Engels and the England of the 1840s | History Today


*Anyone Born With a Silver Spoon in His Mouth Will Always Speak With a Forked Tongue*

Engels was another HeirHead.  The Right Wing of tribal spoiled brats wants to de-emphasize their class's creation of Communism, which fits in with exactly the way their doting Daddies told them to run Capitalism.


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## The Sage of Main Street

Thunderbird said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> The great majority of American professionals are post-Marxist.
> 
> Thunderbird is beating a dead horse.
> 
> 
> 
> Pseudo-scientific crackpots like Marx and Freud are still influential.
> 
> | Marx Most Influential Academic of All Time, Says ScienceCritical-Theory.com
> 
> Why does Marx linger?  I think the reason is obvious. Marxism serves the class interests of academics     who want to control and exploit the people.
Click to expand...

*The Cradle of Intellectual Tyranny*

Academia is an extension of prep school.  The only students comfortable there are spoiled-putrid brats living off a big allowance.  Their mental-pedophile professors serve them lustily, adopting the preppies' self-serving fads and trying to give intellectual credibility to such "Born to Rule" fantasies.


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## Tehon

Thunderbird said:


> Tehon said:
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> 
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> Thunderbird said:
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> 
> 
> Why does Marx linger? I think the reason is obvious. Marxism serves the class interests of academics and bureaucrats who want to control and exploit the people.
> 
> 
> 
> The reason is that people who have actually taken the time to read and understand him can see the truth in his philosophy.
> 
> All you have is conspiracy theory as you cling to your ignorance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You love Marxist dictatorships so much maybe you should send Marx something special for Valentine's Day.
Click to expand...

How about you grow up and educate yourself on his philosophy before starting a thread about something which you clearly know nothing.


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## Thunderbird

Tehon said:


> Thunderbird said:
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> Tehon said:
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> Thunderbird said:
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> Why does Marx linger? I think the reason is obvious. Marxism serves the class interests of academics and bureaucrats who want to control and exploit the people.
> 
> 
> 
> The reason is that people who have actually taken the time to read and understand him can see the truth in his philosophy.
> 
> All you have is conspiracy theory as you cling to your ignorance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You love Marxist dictatorships so much maybe you should send Marx something special for Valentine's Day.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How about you grow up and educate yourself on his philosophy before starting a thread about something which you clearly know nothing.
Click to expand...

How about you educate yourself and stop serving as an incompetent apologist for mass murderers.


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## Tehon

Thunderbird said:


> Tehon said:
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> Thunderbird said:
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> Tehon said:
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> Thunderbird said:
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> Why does Marx linger? I think the reason is obvious. Marxism serves the class interests of academics and bureaucrats who want to control and exploit the people.
> 
> 
> 
> The reason is that people who have actually taken the time to read and understand him can see the truth in his philosophy.
> 
> All you have is conspiracy theory as you cling to your ignorance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You love Marxist dictatorships so much maybe you should send Marx something special for Valentine's Day.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How about you grow up and educate yourself on his philosophy before starting a thread about something which you clearly know nothing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How about you educate yourself and stop serving as an incompetent apologist for mass murderers.
Click to expand...

How exactly am I doing that?


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## Thunderbird

JakeStarkey said:


> Thunderbird said:
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> Tehon said:
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> Thunderbird said:
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> Why does Marx linger? I think the reason is obvious. Marxism serves the class interests of academics and bureaucrats who want to control and exploit the people.
> 
> 
> 
> The reason is that people who have actually taken the time to read and understand him can see the truth in his philosophy.
> 
> All you have is conspiracy theory as you cling to your ignorance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You love Marxist dictatorships so much maybe you should send Marx something special for Valentine's Day.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you 11?
Click to expand...

Are you 90?


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## Thunderbird

Tehon said:


> Thunderbird said:
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> Tehon said:
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> Thunderbird said:
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> Why does Marx linger? I think the reason is obvious. Marxism serves the class interests of academics and bureaucrats who want to control and exploit the people.
> 
> 
> 
> The reason is that people who have actually taken the time to read and understand him can see the truth in his philosophy.
> 
> All you have is conspiracy theory as you cling to your ignorance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You love Marxist dictatorships so much maybe you should send Marx something special for Valentine's Day.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How about you grow up and educate yourself on his philosophy before starting a thread about something which you clearly know nothing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How about you educate yourself and stop serving as an incompetent apologist for mass murderers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How exactly am I doing that?
Click to expand...

You are a Marxist, correct?


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## Tehon

Thunderbird said:


> Tehon said:
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> Tehon said:
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> The reason is that people who have actually taken the time to read and understand him can see the truth in his philosophy.
> 
> All you have is conspiracy theory as you cling to your ignorance.
> 
> 
> 
> You love Marxist dictatorships so much maybe you should send Marx something special for Valentine's Day.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How about you grow up and educate yourself on his philosophy before starting a thread about something which you clearly know nothing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How about you educate yourself and stop serving as an incompetent apologist for mass murderers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How exactly am I doing that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are a Marxist, correct?
Click to expand...

That is fair to say. 

Explain how we get from Marx to mass murder.


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## Thunderbird

Tehon said:


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> Thunderbird said:
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> You love Marxist dictatorships so much maybe you should send Marx something special for Valentine's Day.
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> 
> How about you grow up and educate yourself on his philosophy before starting a thread about something which you clearly know nothing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How about you educate yourself and stop serving as an incompetent apologist for mass murderers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How exactly am I doing that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are a Marxist, correct?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is fair to say.
> 
> Explain how we get from Marx to mass murder.
Click to expand...

It's not a great distance.

Read my posts in this thread and tell me where you disagree.

Freedoms are discarded during violent revolutions. The revolutionary leaders are not eager to restore these freedoms.


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## Tehon

Thunderbird said:


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> Thunderbird said:
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> Tehon said:
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> How about you grow up and educate yourself on his philosophy before starting a thread about something which you clearly know nothing.
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> How about you educate yourself and stop serving as an incompetent apologist for mass murderers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How exactly am I doing that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are a Marxist, correct?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is fair to say.
> 
> Explain how we get from Marx to mass murder.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's not a great distance.
> 
> Read my posts in this thread and tell me where you disagree.
> 
> Freedoms are discarded during violent revolutions. The revolutionary leaders are not eager to restore these freedoms.
Click to expand...

All you have done is copy and paste, which tells me you don't know what you are talking about. 

You made the statement, now you explain it.

At the very least go through your own C&P and put it into your own words.


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## Thunderbird

Tehon said:


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> Thunderbird said:
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> How about you educate yourself and stop serving as an incompetent apologist for mass murderers.
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> How exactly am I doing that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are a Marxist, correct?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is fair to say.
> 
> Explain how we get from Marx to mass murder.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's not a great distance.
> 
> Read my posts in this thread and tell me where you disagree.
> 
> Freedoms are discarded during violent revolutions. The revolutionary leaders are not eager to restore these freedoms.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> All you have done is copy and paste,
Click to expand...

That is not true.



> You made the statement, now you explain it.


I have.



> At the very least go through your own C&P and put it into your own words.


You imply that you are a great scholar of Marxism, yet you are afraid to share your wisdom. Why?


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## Tehon

Thunderbird said:


> Tehon said:
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> How exactly am I doing that?
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> You are a Marxist, correct?
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> Click to expand...
> 
> That is fair to say.
> 
> Explain how we get from Marx to mass murder.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's not a great distance.
> 
> Read my posts in this thread and tell me where you disagree.
> 
> Freedoms are discarded during violent revolutions. The revolutionary leaders are not eager to restore these freedoms.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> All you have done is copy and paste,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is not true.
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> You made the statement, now you explain it.
> 
> Click to expand...
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> I have.
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> At the very least go through your own C&P and put it into your own words.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You imply that you are a great scholar of Marxism, yet you are afraid to share your wisdom. Why?
Click to expand...

You made a specific statement connecting Marx to mass murder orchestrated by the state. But in order to justify your statement you have asked me to peruse the various C&P links you have presented and decipher your argument. Why wouldn't you just show me the connection so I can see what is your point? Point to one C&P if that helps you. I'm not a mind reader.

The simple truth is that despite your ignorantly held beliefs, you can't make the connection between state atrocities and the writings of Karl Marx.

And I do appreciate you demonstrating it for anyone who may be paying attention.


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## Tehon

Thunderbird said:


> Marx is still influential within government bureaucracies, the media, and especially academia. Some twisted bureaucrats, celebrities, and academics hope to acquire power via Marxism.


How does Marxism help people acquire power?


----------



## Tehon

Thunderbird said:


> Marx's predictions regarding inevitable violent revolution in the advanced countries are plainly false.


How do you explain the reactionary rise of European Fascism following WWI?


----------



## Thunderbird

Tehon said:


> Thunderbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> Marx's predictions regarding inevitable violent revolution in the advanced countries are plainly false.
> 
> 
> 
> How do you explain the reactionary rise of European Fascism following WWI?
Click to expand...

Fascism & Nazism are very similar to Communism. They are all totalitarian movements that arose in failed states. These movements promised a future utopia and delivered mass murder. Creating a perfect society always seems to involve killing a lot of actual human beings.


----------



## Thunderbird

Tehon said:


> Thunderbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> Marx is still influential within government bureaucracies, the media, and especially academia. Some twisted bureaucrats, celebrities, and academics hope to acquire power via Marxism.
> 
> 
> 
> How does Marxism help people acquire power?
Click to expand...

Isn't it obvious? Marxists create dictatorships supposedly to build a workers' paradise. The paradise never comes but the dictatorship remains. It's a great con game, but it only works in desperate, failed nations.


----------



## Thunderbird

Tehon said:


> The simple truth is that despite your ignorantly held beliefs, you can't make the connection between state atrocities and the writings of Karl Marx.


You make a great show of being an erudite Marxist scholar, but I see no evidence for your claim.


----------



## Tehon

Thunderbird said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thunderbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> Marx's predictions regarding inevitable violent revolution in the advanced countries are plainly false.
> 
> 
> 
> How do you explain the reactionary rise of European Fascism following WWI?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Fascism & Nazism are very similar to Communism. They are all totalitarian movements that arose in failed states. These movements promised a future utopia and delivered mass murder. Creating a perfect society always seems to involve killing a lot of actual human beings.
Click to expand...

In reality, they rose up to squash the rising tide of socialism.


----------



## Tehon

Thunderbird said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> The simple truth is that despite your ignorantly held beliefs, you can't make the connection between state atrocities and the writings of Karl Marx.
> 
> 
> 
> You make a great show of being an erudite Marxist scholar, but I see no evidence for your claim.
Click to expand...

 You having not made any connection is all the evidence I need.


----------



## Tehon

Thunderbird said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thunderbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> Marx is still influential within government bureaucracies, the media, and especially academia. Some twisted bureaucrats, celebrities, and academics hope to acquire power via Marxism.
> 
> 
> 
> How does Marxism help people acquire power?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Isn't it obvious? Marxists create dictatorships supposedly to build a workers' paradise. The paradise never comes but the dictatorship remains. It's a great con game, but it only works in desperate, failed nations.
Click to expand...

That is Karl Marx's fault? 

I think this quote from The German Ideology is instructive. Don't you?

Communism is for us not a state of affairs which is to be established, an ideal to which reality [will] have to adjust itself. We call communism the real movement which abolishes the present state of things. The conditions of this movement result from the premises now in existence.

Karl Marx


----------



## Thunderbird

Tehon said:


> Thunderbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thunderbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> Marx is still influential within government bureaucracies, the media, and especially academia. Some twisted bureaucrats, celebrities, and academics hope to acquire power via Marxism.
> 
> 
> 
> How does Marxism help people acquire power?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Isn't it obvious? Marxists create dictatorships supposedly to build a workers' paradise. The paradise never comes but the dictatorship remains. It's a great con game, but it only works in desperate, failed nations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is Karl Marx's fault?
> 
> I think this quote from The German Ideology is instructive. Don't you?
> 
> Communism is for us not a state of affairs which is to be established, an ideal to which reality [will] have to adjust itself. We call communism the real movement which abolishes the present state of things. The conditions of this movement result from the premises now in existence.
> 
> Karl Marx
Click to expand...

Marx claimed to believe:
(1) that the existence of classes is only bound up with the particular, historical phases in the development of production,
(2) that the class struggle necessarily leads to the dictatorship of the proletariat,
(3) that this dictatorship itself only constitutes the transition to the abolition of all classes and to a classless society.

So we need a dictatorship to create a utopia.  Great con game.


----------



## Inmar

Communism - public property, equality, internationalism, the absence of racial, interethnic segregation
 Nazism - private property, inequality, the superiority of one nation over others, racial segregation
 Capitalism is private property, inequality, the declaration of equality of nations and races. 

 Thus, Nazism is closer to capitalism 

This topstarter has a complete mess in my head, it's not surprising, because in America they can brainwash

 He even believes that in Korea, communism. Laugh... In Korea, the Juche idea, which is nationalism with totalitarian habits


----------



## Thunderbird

Tehon said:


> Thunderbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thunderbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> Marx's predictions regarding inevitable violent revolution in the advanced countries are plainly false.
> 
> 
> 
> How do you explain the reactionary rise of European Fascism following WWI?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Fascism & Nazism are very similar to Communism. They are all totalitarian movements that arose in failed states. These movements promised a future utopia and delivered mass murder. Creating a perfect society always seems to involve killing a lot of actual human beings.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In reality, they rose up to squash the rising tide of socialism.
Click to expand...

Are you really this ignorant? Of course there were strong socialist elements within both Fascism and Nazism.


----------



## Thunderbird

Inmar said:


> Communism - public property, equality, internationalism, the absence of racial, interethnic segregation


What a laugh! Communism = inequality. Marx was himself a racist.

Marx’s racism


----------



## Thunderbird

Inmar said:


> He even believes that in Korea, communism. Laugh... In Korea, the Juche idea, which is nationalism with totalitarian habits


For Marxists no actual Communist nations are *really* Communist.  This is because Marx's future classless society is a mirage.


----------



## Inmar

Thunderbird said:


> Inmar said:
> 
> 
> 
> Communism - public property, equality, internationalism, the absence of racial, interethnic segregation
> 
> 
> 
> What a laugh! Communism = inequality. Marx was himself a racist.
> 
> Marx’s racism
Click to expand...


I say - a complete brainwashing ... 
Why do you give me a link, calculated at your level?

 Since the Revolution, racial, ethnic and national oppression has been prosecuted in the USSR by law
 Marxism you do not know. 
Proletarian internationalism is one of the foundations of the class struggle. That is, the proletariat of all countries, regardless of nationality, unites and fights against the bourgeoisie


----------



## Inmar

Thunderbird said:


> Inmar said:
> 
> 
> 
> He even believes that in Korea, communism. Laugh... In Korea, the Juche idea, which is nationalism with totalitarian habits
> 
> 
> 
> For Marxists no actual Communist nations are *really* Communist.  This is because Marx's future classless society is a mirage.
Click to expand...


Oh my God. It's just laughter ...
 In Korea, not Marxism and not even Stalinism, but Kimcherin. You do not know anything!

In short, it's not interesting to argue with you


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones

Thunderbird said:


> Why do some people still cling to Marxism? Marx's system is outdated nonsense.
> 
> Bertrand Russell wrote: Marx professed himself an atheist, but retained a cosmic optimism which only theism could justify. Broadly speaking, all the elements in Marx's philosophy which are derived from Hegel are unscientific, in the sense that there is no reason whatever to suppose them true.
> 
> Historian Paul Johnson wrote: The truth is, even the most superficial inquiry into Marx’s use of evidence forces one to treat with scepticism everything he wrote which relies on factual data. He can never be trusted. The whole of the key Chapter Eight of Capital is a deliberate and systematic falsification to prove a thesis which an objective examination of the facts showed was untenable.
> 
> Marx's predictions regarding inevitable violent revolution in the advanced countries are plainly false.
> 
> John Maynard Keynes called_ Das Kapital_ "an obsolete economic textbook, which I know to be not only scientifically erroneous but without interest or application for the modern world."
> 
> Marx was himself intolerant and in love with violence and so is the movement he created.
> 
> Marx: We have no compassion and we ask no compassion from you. When our turn comes, we shall not make excuses for the terror.
> 
> Marx and his followers wanted to create a dictatorship. They only pretended to care about the people to gain support. Marxists starved the people and stopped them from electing their leaders.
> 
> Mikhail Bakunin described a state built according to the Marxian plan: For the proletariat this will, in reality, be nothing but a barracks: a regime, where regimented workingmen and women will sleep, wake, work, and live to the beat of a drum; where the shrewd and educated will be granted government privileges; and where the mercenary-minded, attracted by the immensity of the international speculations of the state bank, will find a vast field for lucrative, underhanded dealings.


lol

Preaching to the choir fallacy.

You’re getting your panties in a bunch over a non-issue.


----------



## Tehon

Thunderbird said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thunderbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thunderbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> Marx is still influential within government bureaucracies, the media, and especially academia. Some twisted bureaucrats, celebrities, and academics hope to acquire power via Marxism.
> 
> 
> 
> How does Marxism help people acquire power?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Isn't it obvious? Marxists create dictatorships supposedly to build a workers' paradise. The paradise never comes but the dictatorship remains. It's a great con game, but it only works in desperate, failed nations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is Karl Marx's fault?
> 
> I think this quote from The German Ideology is instructive. Don't you?
> 
> Communism is for us not a state of affairs which is to be established, an ideal to which reality [will] have to adjust itself. We call communism the real movement which abolishes the present state of things. The conditions of this movement result from the premises now in existence.
> 
> Karl Marx
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Marx claimed to believe:
> (1) that the existence of classes is only bound up with the particular, historical phases in the development of production,
> (2) that the class struggle necessarily leads to the dictatorship of the proletariat,
> (3) that this dictatorship itself only constitutes the transition to the abolition of all classes and to a classless society.
> 
> So we need a dictatorship to create a utopia.  Great con game.
Click to expand...

To put it into perspective, we now live in a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. 

Do you understand?


----------



## regent

Has any nation since Marx came on the scene actually practiced Marx's communism?


----------



## Selivan

Inmar will beat you all.
He grew up in the USSR and studied Marxism in practice.
And you are all talkers
--------------------------------------------------
I do not agree with some of his conclusions, but, in general, he is right ..


----------



## Selivan

Inmar said:


> I say - a complete brainwashing ...



Most users of this forum do not know what Marxism is, even if they have on the avatar a bearded face of Marx.
Why?
Because they live in America, so they have a primitive education ...
That's all


----------



## Selivan

regent said:


> Has any nation since Marx came on the scene actually practiced Marx's communism?


There are several formations that follow one another

*1. Basic:*
- Marxism
- Leninism
- Trotskyism
- Stalinism

The development of Marxism ended in the USSR in 1956, when Khrushchev recognized the "authoritarianism of Stalin." Since then, there has been no development of Marxism, therefore, by the beginning of the 1970s the USSR "fell into the pit of ideology" ...
Soviet people have always studied "Marxism-Leninism", but did not think about real sources ...

*2. By-products*
- Maoism - created in China, on the basis of Stalin's ideas. This is not communism or socialism
- KimIrSen - created in North Korea on the basis of Stalin's ideas. This is not


----------



## Selivan

Why do the liberals and Fifth Column hate Stalin?
They begin to squeal: "Stalin killed a lot of people !!!"
-------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------
Paragraph 1

In fact, Stalin had a real Power from 1929-1953
During this time:
- 600 thousand people were shot (under the criminal article banditry and armed struggle against the Soviet Union, sabotage on a large scale)
- The Gulag is 3 million people who were in prison on a criminal article The Enemy of the People or Economic Crimes

All decisions were taken by the Court.
-----------------------------------------
Do you want to compare it with America in the 1930s?

So this is a lie!
================================================== ========
Point 2

Trotsky (Leiba Bronstein) is the "red devil of the Revolution" ...
He became famous, as he arranged for mass executions, tried to pervert people perverted ....
But, Why do the liberals and the "Fifth Column" not notice this?

================================================== ========
The answer is simple:
Stalin killed Trotsky ...
Now a simple question:
What is the nationality of the liberals, the "Fifth Column" and Trotsky?


----------



## Selivan

Thunderbird said:


> Why do some people still cling to Marxism?



Put your muzzle in the shit and never write on such topics ...
- You do not Have Education
- You have no Information.
-------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------
Choose another topic - go argue with the girls ...


----------



## Tehon

Selivan said:


> Inmar will beat you all.
> He grew up in the USSR and studied Marxism in practice.
> And you are all talkers
> --------------------------------------------------
> I do not agree with some of his conclusions, but, in general, he is right ..


You have shown a special affection for Inmar. Is it now socially acceptable to display your outward affection for another man in Russia? Or is this why you visit an American board?


----------



## Selivan

Tehon said:


> You have shown a special affection for Inmar. Is it now socially acceptable to display your outward affection for another man in Russia? Or is this why you visit an American board?



American, you were told that you shaved off your beard and did not talk about Marxism ..
What's not clear?


----------



## Inmar

Selivan said:


> American, you were told that you shaved off your beard and did not talk about Marxism ..
> What's not clear?




He wants his beard shaved Ya. Selivan, I do not need your help. Thanks .. but I'm shaving the idiots myself.


----------



## Selivan

Inmar said:


> Selivan said:
> 
> 
> 
> American, you were told that you shaved off your beard and did not talk about Marxism ..
> What's not clear?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He wants his beard shaved Ya. Selivan, I do not need your help. Thanks .. but I'm shaving the idiots myself.
Click to expand...

okay


----------



## Tehon

Selivan said:


> Inmar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Selivan said:
> 
> 
> 
> American, you were told that you shaved off your beard and did not talk about Marxism ..
> What's not clear?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He wants his beard shaved Ya. Selivan, I do not need your help. Thanks .. but I'm shaving the idiots myself.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> okay
Click to expand...

I guess we can see who the bitch is in this relationship.


----------



## Inmar

Tehon said:


> Selivan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Inmar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Selivan said:
> 
> 
> 
> American, you were told that you shaved off your beard and did not talk about Marxism ..
> What's not clear?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He wants his beard shaved Ya. Selivan, I do not need your help. Thanks .. but I'm shaving the idiots myself.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> okay
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I guess we can see who the bitch is in this relationship.
Click to expand...


I believe that you better go to sleep. Otherwise, you will learn a lot of interesting things about you personally.? Do not disgrace yourself about Marxism, the American troll ..


----------



## Selivan

Inmar said:


> I believe that you better go to sleep. Otherwise, you will learn a lot of interesting things about you personally.? Do not disgrace yourself about Marxism, the American troll ..



On this forum, many American morons who want to argue with the Russians.
This American scarecrow *with the muzzle of Marx* does not fit - too primitive


----------



## Tehon

Selivan said:


> Inmar said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe that you better go to sleep. Otherwise, you will learn a lot of interesting things about you personally.? Do not disgrace yourself about Marxism, the American troll ..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On this forum, many American morons who want to argue with the Russians.
> This American scarecrow *with the muzzle of Marx* does not fit - too primitive
Click to expand...

You were told to shave your beard. Now shut the hell up, no one gives a fuck about a Russian troll.


----------



## Selivan

Tehon said:


> You were told to shave your beard. Now shut the hell up, no one gives a fuck about a Russian troll.


That's the whole "Marxism" from this American unshaven idiot ..


----------



## ding

JakeStarkey said:


> The great majority of American professionals are post-Marxist.
> 
> Thunderbird is beating a dead horse.
> 
> However, he may find  if the Alt Right keeps fulminating against inevitable social change, there will be social upheaval, one they will suffer from badly.


Except they embedded themselves in American Universities back in the 1930's.


----------



## ding

Tehon said:


> Thunderbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thunderbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thunderbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> You love Marxist dictatorships so much maybe you should send Marx something special for Valentine's Day.
> 
> 
> 
> How about you grow up and educate yourself on his philosophy before starting a thread about something which you clearly know nothing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How about you educate yourself and stop serving as an incompetent apologist for mass murderers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How exactly am I doing that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are a Marxist, correct?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is fair to say.
> 
> Explain how we get from Marx to mass murder.
Click to expand...

Easy.  They don't believe there is a God.


----------



## The Sage of Main Street

Thunderbird said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thunderbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thunderbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> Marx is still influential within government bureaucracies, the media, and especially academia. Some twisted bureaucrats, celebrities, and academics hope to acquire power via Marxism.
> 
> 
> 
> How does Marxism help people acquire power?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Isn't it obvious? Marxists create dictatorships supposedly to build a workers' paradise. The paradise never comes but the dictatorship remains. It's a great con game, but it only works in desperate, failed nations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is Karl Marx's fault?
> 
> I think this quote from The German Ideology is instructive. Don't you?
> 
> Communism is for us not a state of affairs which is to be established, an ideal to which reality [will] have to adjust itself. We call communism the real movement which abolishes the present state of things. The conditions of this movement result from the premises now in existence.
> 
> Karl Marx
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Marx claimed to believe:
> (1) that the existence of classes is only bound up with the particular, historical phases in the development of production,
> (2) that the class struggle necessarily leads to the dictatorship of the proletariat,
> (3) that this dictatorship itself only constitutes the transition to the abolition of all classes and to a classless society.
> 
> So we need a dictatorship to create a utopia.  Great con game.
Click to expand...

*Red Is Blueblood*

Abolish birth privileges.  That would have made Marx a factory worker from an early age.  Maybe he would have learned something.


----------



## The Sage of Main Street

Thunderbird said:


> Inmar said:
> 
> 
> 
> Communism - public property, equality, internationalism, the absence of racial, interethnic segregation
> 
> 
> 
> What a laugh! Communism = inequality. Marx was himself a racist.
> 
> Marx’s racism
Click to expand...

*PC Is a Dead Language.  Quod Erat Demonstrandum*

Guilt by association.  Racial inferiority is a logical conclusion held by many respectable thinkers before smothering PC self-righteousness suppressed it.  It is lame and submissive even to say that they were brought up in a society that brainwashed them to judge races on performance.  Healthy and intelligent racism is no different from blaming a chronically losing team for its failures instead of saying that the league and the referees have always kept it down.


----------



## Thunderbird

Inmar said:


> Thunderbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Inmar said:
> 
> 
> 
> Communism - public property, equality, internationalism, the absence of racial, interethnic segregation
> 
> 
> 
> What a laugh! Communism = inequality. Marx was himself a racist.
> 
> Marx’s racism
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I say - a complete brainwashing ...
> Why do you give me a link, calculated at your level?
> 
> Since the Revolution, racial, ethnic and national oppression has been prosecuted in the USSR by law
> Marxism you do not know.
> Proletarian internationalism is one of the foundations of the class struggle. That is, the proletariat of all countries, regardless of nationality, unites and fights against the bourgeoisie
Click to expand...

Amazing ignorance! Didn't you know that the Soviet government persecuted, starved, deported many ethnic groups?

Population transfer in the Soviet Union - Wikipedia


----------



## Thunderbird

Selivan said:


> Point 2
> 
> Trotsky (Leiba Bronstein) is the "red devil of the Revolution" ...
> He became famous, as he arranged for mass executions, tried to pervert people perverted ....
> But, Why do the liberals and the "Fifth Column" not notice this?
> 
> ================================================== ========
> The answer is simple:
> Stalin killed Trotsky ...
> Now a simple question:
> What is the nationality of the liberals, the "Fifth Column" and Trotsky?


You mean they are Jews?


----------



## Lastamender

PC= Cultural Marxism.


----------



## IsaacNewton

Marxism. Conservatives cling to this outdated proven ludicrous form of government like grim death. 

Give it up cons. Why don't you join the rest of us an embrace democracy instead.


----------



## Lastamender

IsaacNewton said:


> Marxism. Conservatives cling to this outdated proven ludicrous form of government like grim death.
> 
> Give it up cons. Why don't you join the rest of us an embrace democracy instead.


Real democracy is no more than mob rule. This the second time I told you. Idiot.


----------



## regent

When Marx created a new type of socialism that supposedly  enabled a population to make the change to communism it upset most socialists but was a bonanza for the Republican party. It gave Republicans their new battle cry: socialism leads to communism.


----------



## Selivan

This thread is for idiots ...
The topicstarter is so primitive ..
See:
I gave him an idea about the Jews ..
This boy was led to a scandal 
=========================================
There's nothing to discuss!
- Topikstarter - learn, learn and learn. as...
"ordered the Great Lenin and Teaches the Communist Party of the Soviet Union!"
*Как завещал Великий Ленин и как учит Коммунистическая Партия Советского Союза!*

Until you learn the sources of Marxism, Leninism, Stalinism ... there is nothing to talk about with you ...
Education in America is very primitive,
BUT...
If you write on such topics, YOU MUST KNOW THE IDEOLOGICAL WEAPON OF THE ENEMY !!
-------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------
For example .. I know the works of Adam Smith and Ricardo, so I know the weapon of my ENEMY CAPITALIST.
And you do not know anything ...
-------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------
Only bluff to the public.
And very boorish and insulting when you write about the comparison of Communism and Nazism .. For such a "comparison" in Russia, you will be torn off by the grandchildren of our Soviet grandfathers who defeated Nazism and liberated Europe!


----------



## Tehon

Selivan said:


> This thread is for idiots ...
> The topicstarter is so primitive ..
> See:
> I gave him an idea about the Jews ..
> This boy was led to a scandal
> =========================================
> There's nothing to discuss!
> - Topikstarter - learn, learn and learn. as...
> "ordered the Great Lenin and Teaches the Communist Party of the Soviet Union!"
> *Как завещал Великий Ленин и как учит Коммунистическая Партия Советского Союза!*
> 
> Until you learn the sources of Marxism, Leninism, Stalinism ... there is nothing to talk about with you ...
> Education in America is very primitive,
> BUT...
> If you write on such topics, YOU MUST KNOW THE IDEOLOGICAL WEAPON OF THE ENEMY !!
> -------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------
> For example .. I know the works of Adam Smith and Ricardo, so I know the weapon of my ENEMY CAPITALIST.
> And you do not know anything ...
> -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------
> Only bluff to the public.
> And very boorish and insulting when you write about the comparison of Communism and Nazism .. For such a "comparison" in Russia, you will be torn off by the grandchildren of our Soviet grandfathers who defeated Nazism and liberated Europe!


The capitalist is not the enemy of the Marxist for he sows the seeds of his own destruction.

The enemy of the Marxist is ignorance and by American standards the OP is rather unremarkable.


----------



## Picaro

Thunderbird said:


> Why do some people still cling to Marxism? Marx's system is outdated nonsense.
> 
> Bertrand Russell wrote: Marx professed himself an atheist, but retained a cosmic optimism which only theism could justify. Broadly speaking, all the elements in Marx's philosophy which are derived from Hegel are unscientific, in the sense that there is no reason whatever to suppose them true.



Russell is of course wrong here: Marx wanted to position himself as the 'Anti-Hegel' among the pseudo-intellectual 'salon' types of Europe . Hegel, an atheist, nonetheless greatly admired Christianity and its influence on culture and history, and considered it the ultimate and advanced evolution of theology. Marx was really just a rather shallow dilettante poser. He merely aped Hegel's dialectic approach; so did many others much better at it.


----------



## Selivan

Tehon said:


> The capitalist is not the enemy of the Marxist for he sows the seeds of his own destruction.
> The enemy of the Marxist is ignorance and by American standards the OP is rather unremarkable.



I have :
- the enemy of capitalism 1 - the productive forces (shovel, stretcher, rake ...)
- the enemy of capitalism 2 - production relations (I am a master - you are a worker)
----------------------------
I live near Moscow.
I need clowns like you ..................
=======================================
I'll give you production forces and fulfill your production relationship ....
Until you read Capital and learn to distinguish from Leninism


----------



## Votto

Thunderbird said:


> Why do some people still cling to Marxism? Marx's system is outdated nonsense.
> 
> Bertrand Russell wrote: Marx professed himself an atheist, but retained a cosmic optimism which only theism could justify. Broadly speaking, all the elements in Marx's philosophy which are derived from Hegel are unscientific, in the sense that there is no reason whatever to suppose them true.
> 
> Historian Paul Johnson wrote: The truth is, even the most superficial inquiry into Marx’s use of evidence forces one to treat with scepticism everything he wrote which relies on factual data. He can never be trusted. The whole of the key Chapter Eight of Capital is a deliberate and systematic falsification to prove a thesis which an objective examination of the facts showed was untenable.
> 
> Marx's predictions regarding inevitable violent revolution in the advanced countries are plainly false.
> 
> John Maynard Keynes called_ Das Kapital_ "an obsolete economic textbook, which I know to be not only scientifically erroneous but without interest or application for the modern world."
> 
> Marx was himself intolerant and in love with violence and so is the movement he created.
> 
> Marx: We have no compassion and we ask no compassion from you. When our turn comes, we shall not make excuses for the terror.
> 
> Marx and his followers wanted to create a dictatorship. They only pretended to care about the people to gain support. Marxists starved the people and stopped them from electing their leaders.
> 
> Mikhail Bakunin described a state built according to the Marxian plan: For the proletariat this will, in reality, be nothing but a barracks: a regime, where regimented workingmen and women will sleep, wake, work, and live to the beat of a drum; where the shrewd and educated will be granted government privileges; and where the mercenary-minded, attracted by the immensity of the international speculations of the state bank, will find a vast field for lucrative, underhanded dealings.



Marxism is the ultimate guide to forming a dictatorship.  For Marxism has two perks for the dictator.

1.  It appeals to the masses because of the demagoguery.  It was once taught coveting was a sin but now it becomes a virtue with Marx.  Just look at what it has done in Venezuela.  They now have 4000% inflation, but they are still in love with the rhetoric.  They will never learn.

2.  In order for it to work, the state needs absolute control over every aspect of society because the government must redistribute everything based on both a monetary value and "social justice".

There is no other form of government that mandates such dictatorial control.


----------



## Selivan

Votto said:


> There is no other form of government that mandates such dictatorial control.



So you dare to talk about Marxism.
*You must write 3 sources of Marxism. *
================================
You do not know any.

Try to write,
THIS IS A CLASSIC OF MARXISM ...

=========================================
*If you do not know the sources, you do not know Marxism ...
That's all...*


----------



## Picaro

Selivan said:


> Votto said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is no other form of government that mandates such dictatorial control.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you dare to talk about Marxism.
> *You must write 3 sources of Marxism. *
> ================================
> You do not know any.
> 
> Try to write,
> THIS IS A CLASSIC OF MARXISM ...
> 
> =========================================
> *If you do not know the sources, you do not know Marxism ...
> That's all...*
Click to expand...


lol it's a lot of made up gibberish; it only takes one source to know that, and not even necessary to read one in its entirety.


----------



## Selivan

I await a response from these clowns about the origins of Marxism


----------



## Thunderbird

regent said:


> When Marx created a new type of socialism that supposedly  enabled a population to make the change to communism it upset most socialists but was a bonanza for the Republican party. It gave Republicans their new battle cry: socialism leads to communism.


Marxism does discredit socialism.


----------



## Thunderbird

Tehon said:


> Selivan said:
> 
> 
> 
> This thread is for idiots ...
> The topicstarter is so primitive ..
> See:
> I gave him an idea about the Jews ..
> This boy was led to a scandal
> =========================================
> There's nothing to discuss!
> - Topikstarter - learn, learn and learn. as...
> "ordered the Great Lenin and Teaches the Communist Party of the Soviet Union!"
> *Как завещал Великий Ленин и как учит Коммунистическая Партия Советского Союза!*
> 
> Until you learn the sources of Marxism, Leninism, Stalinism ... there is nothing to talk about with you ...
> Education in America is very primitive,
> BUT...
> If you write on such topics, YOU MUST KNOW THE IDEOLOGICAL WEAPON OF THE ENEMY !!
> -------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------
> For example .. I know the works of Adam Smith and Ricardo, so I know the weapon of my ENEMY CAPITALIST.
> And you do not know anything ...
> -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------
> Only bluff to the public.
> And very boorish and insulting when you write about the comparison of Communism and Nazism .. For such a "comparison" in Russia, you will be torn off by the grandchildren of our Soviet grandfathers who defeated Nazism and liberated Europe!
> 
> 
> 
> The capitalist is not the enemy of the Marxist for he sows the seeds of his own destruction.
> 
> The enemy of the Marxist is ignorance and by American standards the OP is rather unremarkable.
Click to expand...

More name calling. zzzzzzzzz


----------



## Picaro




----------



## Thunderbird

Picaro said:


> Thunderbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why do some people still cling to Marxism? Marx's system is outdated nonsense.
> 
> Bertrand Russell wrote: Marx professed himself an atheist, but retained a cosmic optimism which only theism could justify. Broadly speaking, all the elements in Marx's philosophy which are derived from Hegel are unscientific, in the sense that there is no reason whatever to suppose them true.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Russell is of course wrong here: Marx wanted to position himself as the 'Anti-Hegel' among the pseudo-intellectual 'salon' types of Europe . Hegel, an atheist, nonetheless greatly admired Christianity and its influence on culture and history, and considered it the ultimate and advanced evolution of theology. Marx was really just a rather shallow dilettante poser. He merely aped Hegel's dialectic approach; so did many others much better at it.
Click to expand...

The foundation for Hegel's cosmic optimism was his theism. What was the foundation for Marx's cosmic optimism?


----------



## Picaro

Thunderbird said:


> Picaro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thunderbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why do some people still cling to Marxism? Marx's system is outdated nonsense.
> 
> Bertrand Russell wrote: Marx professed himself an atheist, but retained a cosmic optimism which only theism could justify. Broadly speaking, all the elements in Marx's philosophy which are derived from Hegel are unscientific, in the sense that there is no reason whatever to suppose them true.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Russell is of course wrong here: Marx wanted to position himself as the 'Anti-Hegel' among the pseudo-intellectual 'salon' types of Europe . Hegel, an atheist, nonetheless greatly admired Christianity and its influence on culture and history, and considered it the ultimate and advanced evolution of theology. Marx was really just a rather shallow dilettante poser. He merely aped Hegel's dialectic approach; so did many others much better at it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The foundation for Hegel's cosmic optimism was his theism. What was the foundation for Marx's cosmic optimism?
Click to expand...


I never saw anything 'optimistic' about Marxism, so I can't answer. His idea of a 'Utopia' was not a positive one. He just made up one he thought would win fans for his silly theory; he never had any genuine end result, certainly not one that would be achieved via his premises. Their states almost immediately stagnate and degenerate into bureaucracies motivated by personal whims of the bureaucrats. This why Engels had to lie and create the fake math in Vol. II of *Das Kapital*, for instance. There was no 'There' there.


----------



## Selivan

Надоели...
Купите Петуха и научите его говорить


----------



## Tehon

Selivan said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> The capitalist is not the enemy of the Marxist for he sows the seeds of his own destruction.
> The enemy of the Marxist is ignorance and by American standards the OP is rather unremarkable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have :
> - the enemy of capitalism 1 - the productive forces (shovel, stretcher, rake ...)
> - the enemy of capitalism 2 - production relations (I am a master - you are a worker)
> ----------------------------
> I live near Moscow.
> I need clowns like you ..................
> =======================================
> I'll give you production forces and fulfill your production relationship ....
> Until you read Capital and learn to distinguish from Leninism
Click to expand...


----------



## Selivan




----------



## Tehon

Tehon said:


> Selivan said:
> 
> 
> 
> This thread is for idiots ...
> The topicstarter is so primitive ..
> See:
> I gave him an idea about the Jews ..
> This boy was led to a scandal
> =========================================
> There's nothing to discuss!
> - Topikstarter - learn, learn and learn. as...
> "ordered the Great Lenin and Teaches the Communist Party of the Soviet Union!"
> *Как завещал Великий Ленин и как учит Коммунистическая Партия Советского Союза!*
> 
> Until you learn the sources of Marxism, Leninism, Stalinism ... there is nothing to talk about with you ...
> Education in America is very primitive,
> BUT...
> If you write on such topics, YOU MUST KNOW THE IDEOLOGICAL WEAPON OF THE ENEMY !!
> -------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------
> For example .. I know the works of Adam Smith and Ricardo, so I know the weapon of my ENEMY CAPITALIST.
> And you do not know anything ...
> -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------
> Only bluff to the public.
> And very boorish and insulting when you write about the comparison of Communism and Nazism .. For such a "comparison" in Russia, you will be torn off by the grandchildren of our Soviet grandfathers who defeated Nazism and liberated Europe!
> 
> 
> 
> The capitalist is not the enemy of the Marxist for he sows the seeds of his own destruction.
> 
> The enemy of the Marxist is ignorance and by American standards the OP is rather unremarkable.
Click to expand...

In that case we do not confront the world in a doctrinaire way with a new principle: Here is the truth, kneel down before it! We develop new principles for the world out of the world’s own principles. We do not say to the world: Cease your struggles, they are foolish; we will give you the true slogan of struggle. We merely show the world what it is really fighting for, and consciousness is something that it _has to _acquire, even if it does not want to.
Letters: Letters from the Deutsch-Französische Jahrbücher by Karl Marx


----------



## Inmar

Tired. Close, there will be nothing more interesting.


----------



## The Sage of Main Street

Lastamender said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Marxism. Conservatives cling to this outdated proven ludicrous form of government like grim death.
> 
> Give it up cons. Why don't you join the rest of us an embrace democracy instead.
> 
> 
> 
> Real democracy is no more than mob rule.
Click to expand...

*Paying Duty to the Snooty*

Birchers prefer snob rule.


----------



## The Sage of Main Street

regent said:


> When Marx created a new type of socialism that supposedly  enabled a population to make the change to communism it upset most socialists but was a bonanza for the Republican party. It gave Republicans their new battle cry: socialism leads to communism.


*Agents Provocateurs*

The united ruling class won't allow us to follow through on that and conclude that Leftists are agents of the Right Wing.  That's why we call Preppy Progressives "Limousine Liberals."


----------



## The Sage of Main Street

Thunderbird said:


> Picaro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thunderbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why do some people still cling to Marxism? Marx's system is outdated nonsense.
> 
> Bertrand Russell wrote: Marx professed himself an atheist, but retained a cosmic optimism which only theism could justify. Broadly speaking, all the elements in Marx's philosophy which are derived from Hegel are unscientific, in the sense that there is no reason whatever to suppose them true.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Russell is of course wrong here: Marx wanted to position himself as the 'Anti-Hegel' among the pseudo-intellectual 'salon' types of Europe . Hegel, an atheist, nonetheless greatly admired Christianity and its influence on culture and history, and considered it the ultimate and advanced evolution of theology. Marx was really just a rather shallow dilettante poser. He merely aped Hegel's dialectic approach; so did many others much better at it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The foundation for Hegel's cosmic optimism was his theism. What was the foundation for Marx's cosmic optimism?
Click to expand...

*Both Sides Will Thrive Until We Make Them a Combined Target*

His snobbish egoism and entitled sense that he was Born to Rule, just like all the other academic activists.


----------



## Tehon

Thunderbird said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Selivan said:
> 
> 
> 
> This thread is for idiots ...
> The topicstarter is so primitive ..
> See:
> I gave him an idea about the Jews ..
> This boy was led to a scandal
> =========================================
> There's nothing to discuss!
> - Topikstarter - learn, learn and learn. as...
> "ordered the Great Lenin and Teaches the Communist Party of the Soviet Union!"
> *Как завещал Великий Ленин и как учит Коммунистическая Партия Советского Союза!*
> 
> Until you learn the sources of Marxism, Leninism, Stalinism ... there is nothing to talk about with you ...
> Education in America is very primitive,
> BUT...
> If you write on such topics, YOU MUST KNOW THE IDEOLOGICAL WEAPON OF THE ENEMY !!
> -------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------
> For example .. I know the works of Adam Smith and Ricardo, so I know the weapon of my ENEMY CAPITALIST.
> And you do not know anything ...
> -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------
> Only bluff to the public.
> And very boorish and insulting when you write about the comparison of Communism and Nazism .. For such a "comparison" in Russia, you will be torn off by the grandchildren of our Soviet grandfathers who defeated Nazism and liberated Europe!
> 
> 
> 
> The capitalist is not the enemy of the Marxist for he sows the seeds of his own destruction.
> 
> The enemy of the Marxist is ignorance and by American standards the OP is rather unremarkable.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> More name calling. zzzzzzzzz
Click to expand...

I would prefer to have an intelligent conversation with someone informed by the source material. By not being informed by the source material you expose yourself. Don't blame me.


----------



## EGR one

Tehon said:


> Thunderbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why does Marx linger? I think the reason is obvious. Marxism serves the class interests of academics and bureaucrats who want to control and exploit the people.
> 
> 
> 
> The reason is that people who have actually taken the time to read and understand him can see the truth in his philosophy.
> 
> All you have is conspiracy theory as you cling to your ignorance.
Click to expand...


All you need to know about Marx's theory is that it is unworkable.  It assumes that human beings will spend the time to educate themselves, work hard, and sacrifice themselves for the benefit of others, without reward for their efforts.  You can't even find that in fairytales.


----------



## EGR one

Tehon said:


> Thunderbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thunderbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thunderbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> You love Marxist dictatorships so much maybe you should send Marx something special for Valentine's Day.
> 
> 
> 
> How about you grow up and educate yourself on his philosophy before starting a thread about something which you clearly know nothing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How about you educate yourself and stop serving as an incompetent apologist for mass murderers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How exactly am I doing that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are a Marxist, correct?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is fair to say.
> 
> Explain how we get from Marx to mass murder.
Click to expand...


Maybe because force is necessary to implement and maintain Marxism


----------



## EGR one

regent said:


> When Marx created a new type of socialism that supposedly  enabled a population to make the change to communism it upset most socialists but was a bonanza for the Republican party. It gave Republicans their new battle cry: socialism leads to communism.



Socialism does not lead to Communism, it leads to the bottom for any nation that dabbles with it.  The only variable is time, and that depends on how deep the nation dabbles.

Human beings are inherently lazy in both the desire to learn and/or labor. Socialism abets those bad traits   Most human beings who have their basic needs met without effort on their part will be content to live that way.


----------



## Tehon

EGR one said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thunderbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why does Marx linger? I think the reason is obvious. Marxism serves the class interests of academics and bureaucrats who want to control and exploit the people.
> 
> 
> 
> The reason is that people who have actually taken the time to read and understand him can see the truth in his philosophy.
> 
> All you have is conspiracy theory as you cling to your ignorance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> All you need to know about Marx's theory is that it is unworkable.  It assumes that human beings will spend the time to educate themselves, work hard, and sacrifice themselves for the benefit of others, without reward for their efforts.  You can't even find that in fairytales.
Click to expand...

But we find it in the capitalist system. Proletarians do exactly that.


----------



## EGR one

Tehon said:


> EGR one said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thunderbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why does Marx linger? I think the reason is obvious. Marxism serves the class interests of academics and bureaucrats who want to control and exploit the people.
> 
> 
> 
> The reason is that people who have actually taken the time to read and understand him can see the truth in his philosophy.
> 
> All you have is conspiracy theory as you cling to your ignorance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> All you need to know about Marx's theory is that it is unworkable.  It assumes that human beings will spend the time to educate themselves, work hard, and sacrifice themselves for the benefit of others, without reward for their efforts.  You can't even find that in fairytales.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> But we find it in the capitalist system. Proletarians do exactly that.
Click to expand...


Capitalism is nothing more than the natural state of human existence.  It is driven by individual self interest.  I learn and I work because it is in my self interest to do so.  I get out of life what I am willing to put into it, not what someone else thinks I should be happy with.


----------



## Tehon

EGR one said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EGR one said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thunderbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why does Marx linger? I think the reason is obvious. Marxism serves the class interests of academics and bureaucrats who want to control and exploit the people.
> 
> 
> 
> The reason is that people who have actually taken the time to read and understand him can see the truth in his philosophy.
> 
> All you have is conspiracy theory as you cling to your ignorance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> All you need to know about Marx's theory is that it is unworkable.  It assumes that human beings will spend the time to educate themselves, work hard, and sacrifice themselves for the benefit of others, without reward for their efforts.  You can't even find that in fairytales.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> But we find it in the capitalist system. Proletarians do exactly that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Capitalism is nothing more than the natural state of human existence.  It is driven by individual self interest.  I learn and I work because it is in my self interest to do so.  I get out of life what I am willing to put into it, not what someone else thinks I should be happy with.
Click to expand...

Why do you think it would not be in your self interest to learn and work in a Marxist system?

Marx believed that you as the worker produces value. He believes you get to keep the full value of your labor.

In the capitalist system, the worker only gets a fraction of the value that he/she produces.


----------



## Tehon

EGR one said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EGR one said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thunderbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why does Marx linger? I think the reason is obvious. Marxism serves the class interests of academics and bureaucrats who want to control and exploit the people.
> 
> 
> 
> The reason is that people who have actually taken the time to read and understand him can see the truth in his philosophy.
> 
> All you have is conspiracy theory as you cling to your ignorance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> All you need to know about Marx's theory is that it is unworkable.  It assumes that human beings will spend the time to educate themselves, work hard, and sacrifice themselves for the benefit of others, without reward for their efforts.  You can't even find that in fairytales.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> But we find it in the capitalist system. Proletarians do exactly that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Capitalism is nothing more than the natural state of human existence.  It is driven by individual self interest.  I learn and I work because it is in my self interest to do so.  I get out of life what I am willing to put into it, not what someone else thinks I should be happy with.
Click to expand...

As long as the oppressed class – in our case, therefore, the proletariat – is not yet ripe for its self-liberation, so long will it, in its majority, recognize the existing order of society as the only possible one and remain politically the tall of the capitalist class, its extreme left wing. 
Origins of the Family- Chapter IX


----------



## EGR one

Tehon said:


> EGR one said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EGR one said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thunderbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why does Marx linger? I think the reason is obvious. Marxism serves the class interests of academics and bureaucrats who want to control and exploit the people.
> 
> 
> 
> The reason is that people who have actually taken the time to read and understand him can see the truth in his philosophy.
> 
> All you have is conspiracy theory as you cling to your ignorance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> All you need to know about Marx's theory is that it is unworkable.  It assumes that human beings will spend the time to educate themselves, work hard, and sacrifice themselves for the benefit of others, without reward for their efforts.  You can't even find that in fairytales.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> But we find it in the capitalist system. Proletarians do exactly that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Capitalism is nothing more than the natural state of human existence.  It is driven by individual self interest.  I learn and I work because it is in my self interest to do so.  I get out of life what I am willing to put into it, not what someone else thinks I should be happy with.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why do you think it would not be in your self interest to learn and work in a Marxist system?
> 
> Marx believed that you as the worker produces value. He believes you get to keep the full value of your labor.
> 
> In the capitalist system, the worker only gets a fraction of the value that he/she produces.
Click to expand...


Marx believed that all laborers should be paid the same regardless of their knowledge or skills.  No one gets to keep the full value of their labor.  Government always takes a cut.

If a worker works for himself, he gets the value of his labor, minus the government's share.  If he works for someone else, he gets what he agrees to take in exchange for his labor, minus the government's cut.


----------



## Tehon

EGR one said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EGR one said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EGR one said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> The reason is that people who have actually taken the time to read and understand him can see the truth in his philosophy.
> 
> All you have is conspiracy theory as you cling to your ignorance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All you need to know about Marx's theory is that it is unworkable.  It assumes that human beings will spend the time to educate themselves, work hard, and sacrifice themselves for the benefit of others, without reward for their efforts.  You can't even find that in fairytales.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> But we find it in the capitalist system. Proletarians do exactly that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Capitalism is nothing more than the natural state of human existence.  It is driven by individual self interest.  I learn and I work because it is in my self interest to do so.  I get out of life what I am willing to put into it, not what someone else thinks I should be happy with.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why do you think it would not be in your self interest to learn and work in a Marxist system?
> 
> Marx believed that you as the worker produces value. He believes you get to keep the full value of your labor.
> 
> In the capitalist system, the worker only gets a fraction of the value that he/she produces.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Marx believed that all laborers should be paid the same regardless of their knowledge or skills.  No one gets to keep the full value of their labor.  Government always takes a cut.
> 
> If a worker works for himself, he gets the value of his labor, minus the government's share.  If he works for someone else, he gets what he agrees to take in exchange for his labor, minus the government's cut.
Click to expand...

Do you pay taxes in America? Lol


----------



## EGR one

Tehon said:


> EGR one said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EGR one said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thunderbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why does Marx linger? I think the reason is obvious. Marxism serves the class interests of academics and bureaucrats who want to control and exploit the people.
> 
> 
> 
> The reason is that people who have actually taken the time to read and understand him can see the truth in his philosophy.
> 
> All you have is conspiracy theory as you cling to your ignorance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> All you need to know about Marx's theory is that it is unworkable.  It assumes that human beings will spend the time to educate themselves, work hard, and sacrifice themselves for the benefit of others, without reward for their efforts.  You can't even find that in fairytales.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> But we find it in the capitalist system. Proletarians do exactly that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Capitalism is nothing more than the natural state of human existence.  It is driven by individual self interest.  I learn and I work because it is in my self interest to do so.  I get out of life what I am willing to put into it, not what someone else thinks I should be happy with.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> As long as the oppressed class – in our case, therefore, the proletariat – is not yet ripe for its self-liberation, so long will it, in its majority, recognize the existing order of society as the only possible one and remain politically the tall of the capitalist class, its extreme left wing.
> Origins of the Family- Chapter IX
Click to expand...


Common sense recognizes that capitalism is the only system of economics that rewards those who educate themselves and work hard.  The capitalist class is anyone with a dollar in his pocket, and will spend that dollar in furtherance of his perceived self interest.


----------



## EGR one

Tehon said:


> EGR one said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EGR one said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EGR one said:
> 
> 
> 
> All you need to know about Marx's theory is that it is unworkable.  It assumes that human beings will spend the time to educate themselves, work hard, and sacrifice themselves for the benefit of others, without reward for their efforts.  You can't even find that in fairytales.
> 
> 
> 
> But we find it in the capitalist system. Proletarians do exactly that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Capitalism is nothing more than the natural state of human existence.  It is driven by individual self interest.  I learn and I work because it is in my self interest to do so.  I get out of life what I am willing to put into it, not what someone else thinks I should be happy with.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why do you think it would not be in your self interest to learn and work in a Marxist system?
> 
> Marx believed that you as the worker produces value. He believes you get to keep the full value of your labor.
> 
> In the capitalist system, the worker only gets a fraction of the value that he/she produces.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Marx believed that all laborers should be paid the same regardless of their knowledge or skills.  No one gets to keep the full value of their labor.  Government always takes a cut.
> 
> If a worker works for himself, he gets the value of his labor, minus the government's share.  If he works for someone else, he gets what he agrees to take in exchange for his labor, minus the government's cut.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Do you pay taxes in America? Lol
Click to expand...


Of course, that is the government's cut of my income.  If government exists, it will always get it's cut.


----------



## Tehon

EGR one said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EGR one said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EGR one said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> The reason is that people who have actually taken the time to read and understand him can see the truth in his philosophy.
> 
> All you have is conspiracy theory as you cling to your ignorance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All you need to know about Marx's theory is that it is unworkable.  It assumes that human beings will spend the time to educate themselves, work hard, and sacrifice themselves for the benefit of others, without reward for their efforts.  You can't even find that in fairytales.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> But we find it in the capitalist system. Proletarians do exactly that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Capitalism is nothing more than the natural state of human existence.  It is driven by individual self interest.  I learn and I work because it is in my self interest to do so.  I get out of life what I am willing to put into it, not what someone else thinks I should be happy with.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> As long as the oppressed class – in our case, therefore, the proletariat – is not yet ripe for its self-liberation, so long will it, in its majority, recognize the existing order of society as the only possible one and remain politically the tall of the capitalist class, its extreme left wing.
> Origins of the Family- Chapter IX
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Common sense recognizes that capitalism is the only system of economics that rewards those who educate themselves and work hard.  The capitalist class is anyone with a dollar in his pocket, and will spend that dollar in furtherance of his perceived self interest.
Click to expand...

The beggar on the street who receives a dollar from a compassionate person is a capitalist? Lol

And you talk of common sense.


----------



## EGR one

Tehon said:


> EGR one said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> EGR one said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EGR one said:
> 
> 
> 
> All you need to know about Marx's theory is that it is unworkable.  It assumes that human beings will spend the time to educate themselves, work hard, and sacrifice themselves for the benefit of others, without reward for their efforts.  You can't even find that in fairytales.
> 
> 
> 
> But we find it in the capitalist system. Proletarians do exactly that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Capitalism is nothing more than the natural state of human existence.  It is driven by individual self interest.  I learn and I work because it is in my self interest to do so.  I get out of life what I am willing to put into it, not what someone else thinks I should be happy with.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> As long as the oppressed class – in our case, therefore, the proletariat – is not yet ripe for its self-liberation, so long will it, in its majority, recognize the existing order of society as the only possible one and remain politically the tall of the capitalist class, its extreme left wing.
> Origins of the Family- Chapter IX
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Common sense recognizes that capitalism is the only system of economics that rewards those who educate themselves and work hard.  The capitalist class is anyone with a dollar in his pocket, and will spend that dollar in furtherance of his perceived self interest.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The beggar on the street who receives a dollar from a compassionate person is a capitalist? Lol
> 
> And you talk of common sense.
Click to expand...


He is a capitalist once he has that dollar.


----------



## Tehon

EGR one said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EGR one said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EGR one said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> But we find it in the capitalist system. Proletarians do exactly that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Capitalism is nothing more than the natural state of human existence.  It is driven by individual self interest.  I learn and I work because it is in my self interest to do so.  I get out of life what I am willing to put into it, not what someone else thinks I should be happy with.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> As long as the oppressed class – in our case, therefore, the proletariat – is not yet ripe for its self-liberation, so long will it, in its majority, recognize the existing order of society as the only possible one and remain politically the tall of the capitalist class, its extreme left wing.
> Origins of the Family- Chapter IX
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Common sense recognizes that capitalism is the only system of economics that rewards those who educate themselves and work hard.  The capitalist class is anyone with a dollar in his pocket, and will spend that dollar in furtherance of his perceived self interest.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The beggar on the street who receives a dollar from a compassionate person is a capitalist? Lol
> 
> And you talk of common sense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> He is a capitalist once he has that dollar.
Click to expand...

You think a dollar used to purchase a commodity which will be consumed immediately is capital?


----------



## Tehon

EGR one said:


> If he works for someone else, he gets what he agrees to take in exchange for his labor, minus the government's cut.


Which is less than the full value for which he produces. Hence the reason I say that in a Marxist system he receives the full value for what he produces......minus taxes of course. Which in a Marxist system would be negligible. The size of our government is a consequence of our productive system.


----------



## Dogmaphobe

I clung to Marxism between February of 1965 and May of 1967.


Then puberty hit.


----------



## Tehon

Dogmaphobe said:


> I clung to Marxism between February of 1965 and May of 1967.
> 
> 
> Then puberty hit.


Judging by that response one would think you are still in its grips.


----------



## Tehon

Tehon said:


> EGR one said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EGR one said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EGR one said:
> 
> 
> 
> Capitalism is nothing more than the natural state of human existence.  It is driven by individual self interest.  I learn and I work because it is in my self interest to do so.  I get out of life what I am willing to put into it, not what someone else thinks I should be happy with.
> 
> 
> 
> As long as the oppressed class – in our case, therefore, the proletariat – is not yet ripe for its self-liberation, so long will it, in its majority, recognize the existing order of society as the only possible one and remain politically the tall of the capitalist class, its extreme left wing.
> Origins of the Family- Chapter IX
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Common sense recognizes that capitalism is the only system of economics that rewards those who educate themselves and work hard.  The capitalist class is anyone with a dollar in his pocket, and will spend that dollar in furtherance of his perceived self interest.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The beggar on the street who receives a dollar from a compassionate person is a capitalist? Lol
> 
> And you talk of common sense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> He is a capitalist once he has that dollar.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You think a dollar used to purchase a commodity which will be consumed immediately is capital?
Click to expand...

People who lack an understanding of the system in which they partake in every day have no business discussing one completely foreign to them.


----------



## Thunderbird

Tehon said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EGR one said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EGR one said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> As long as the oppressed class – in our case, therefore, the proletariat – is not yet ripe for its self-liberation, so long will it, in its majority, recognize the existing order of society as the only possible one and remain politically the tall of the capitalist class, its extreme left wing.
> Origins of the Family- Chapter IX
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Common sense recognizes that capitalism is the only system of economics that rewards those who educate themselves and work hard.  The capitalist class is anyone with a dollar in his pocket, and will spend that dollar in furtherance of his perceived self interest.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The beggar on the street who receives a dollar from a compassionate person is a capitalist? Lol
> 
> And you talk of common sense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> He is a capitalist once he has that dollar.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You think a dollar used to purchase a commodity which will be consumed immediately is capital?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> People who lack an understanding of the system in which they partake in every day have no business discussing one completely foreign to them.
Click to expand...

For a fumbling ignorant apologist for mass murder you certainly have a high self-regard.

As a Marxist, how do you feel about free speech?


----------



## Tehon

Thunderbird said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EGR one said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EGR one said:
> 
> 
> 
> Common sense recognizes that capitalism is the only system of economics that rewards those who educate themselves and work hard.  The capitalist class is anyone with a dollar in his pocket, and will spend that dollar in furtherance of his perceived self interest.
> 
> 
> 
> The beggar on the street who receives a dollar from a compassionate person is a capitalist? Lol
> 
> And you talk of common sense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> He is a capitalist once he has that dollar.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You think a dollar used to purchase a commodity which will be consumed immediately is capital?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> People who lack an understanding of the system in which they partake in every day have no business discussing one completely foreign to them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> For a fumbling ignorant apologist for mass murder you certainly have a high self-regard.
> 
> As a Marxist, how do you feel about free speech?
Click to expand...

We all have a right to speak freely.

And BTW, Marx murdered no one.


----------



## Thunderbird

Tehon said:


> Thunderbird said:
> 
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> Tehon said:
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> Tehon said:
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> EGR one said:
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> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> The beggar on the street who receives a dollar from a compassionate person is a capitalist? Lol
> 
> And you talk of common sense.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He is a capitalist once he has that dollar.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You think a dollar used to purchase a commodity which will be consumed immediately is capital?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> People who lack an understanding of the system in which they partake in every day have no business discussing one completely foreign to them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> For a fumbling ignorant apologist for mass murder you certainly have a high self-regard.
> 
> As a Marxist, how do you feel about free speech?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We all have a right to speak freely.
Click to expand...

How about during the dictatorship of the proletariat, will free speech reign? Do dictatorships permit speech contrary to the wishes of the dictators?



> And BTW, Marx murdered no one.


But his devoted followers certainly did.


----------



## Tehon

Thunderbird said:


> How about during the dictatorship of the proletariat, will free speech reign? Do dictatorships permit speech contrary to the wishes of the dictators?


You don't fully understand the concept of the dictatorship of the proletariat. I asked you earlier and you ignored me.

We currently live in a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. Do you understand this concept? I ask because it is something you should be able to relate to which will help you understand its counterpart.

Edit:
The direct answer to your question is yes, you will retain your right to speak freely.



Thunderbird said:


> But his devoted followers certainly did


His professed followers. This is an important distinction. I ask you to make the connection using source material. If you can't then stop your lying.


----------



## Thunderbird

Tehon said:


> Thunderbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> How about during the dictatorship of the proletariat, will free speech reign? Do dictatorships permit speech contrary to the wishes of the dictators?
> 
> 
> 
> You don't fully understand the concept of the dictatorship of the proletariat. I asked you earlier and you ignored me.
> 
> We currently live in a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. Do you understand this concept? I ask because it is something you should be able to relate to which will help you understand its counterpart.
> 
> Edit:
> The direct answer to your question is yes, you will retain your right to speak freely.
Click to expand...

Do dictatorships permit speech contrary to the wishes of the dictators?



> His professed followers.


Where did they stray from the teaching of their Master?

Can you defend any actual Marxist regime?

What do you think of Lenin?


----------



## Tehon

Thunderbird said:


> Do dictatorships permit speech contrary to the wishes of the dictators?


Am I permitted to speak freely contrary to the wishes of the bourgeois dictatorship?


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## Thunderbird

Tehon said:


> Thunderbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do dictatorships permit speech contrary to the wishes of the dictators?
> 
> 
> 
> Am I permitted to speak freely contrary to the wishes of the bourgeois dictatorship?
Click to expand...

You are doing so right now!

Why are you terrified of my question: Do dictatorships permit speech contrary to the wishes of the dictators?


----------



## Tehon

Thunderbird said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thunderbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do dictatorships permit speech contrary to the wishes of the dictators?
> 
> 
> 
> Am I permitted to speak freely contrary to the wishes of the bourgeois dictatorship?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are doing so right now!
> 
> Why are you terrified of my question: Do dictatorships permit speech contrary to the wishes of the dictators?
Click to expand...

I am trying to explain to you the concept of dictatorship of the proletariat. 

You are only thinking in literal terms. You're dull. If you want to understand you are going to have to do some thinking for yourself.

Here is the concept explained. You should really start from the beginning but this should give you a sense of the concept.

The ideas of the ruling class are in every epoch the ruling ideas, i.e. the class which is the ruling material force of society, is at the same time its ruling intellectual force. The class which has the means of material production at its disposal, has control at the same time over the means of mental production, so that thereby, generally speaking, the ideas of those who lack the means of mental production are subject to it. The ruling ideas are nothing more than the ideal expression of the dominant material relationships, the dominant material relationships grasped as ideas; hence of the relationships which make the one class the ruling one, therefore, the ideas of its dominance. The individuals composing the ruling class possess among other things consciousness, and therefore think. Insofar, therefore, as they rule as a class and determine the extent and compass of an epoch, it is self-evident that they do this in its whole range, hence among other things rule also as thinkers, as producers of ideas, and regulate the production and distribution of the ideas of their age: thus their ideas are the ruling ideas of the epoch.

The German Ideology. Karl Marx 1845


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## Tehon

Thunderbird said:


> Why are you terrified of my question: Do dictatorships permit speech contrary to the wishes of the dictators?


I've answered your question already dullard. I am speaking contrary to the dictatorship's wishes right now.


----------



## Selivan

I have a very complicated tool ...
It's called a ЛОМ





I'll give it to the stupid chatterbox of this branch, to deal with the matter


----------



## The Sage of Main Street

EGR one said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thunderbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why does Marx linger? I think the reason is obvious. Marxism serves the class interests of academics and bureaucrats who want to control and exploit the people.
> 
> 
> 
> The reason is that people who have actually taken the time to read and understand him can see the truth in his philosophy.
> 
> All you have is conspiracy theory as you cling to your ignorance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> All you need to know about Marx's theory is that it is unworkable.  It assumes that human beings will spend the time to educate themselves, work hard, and sacrifice themselves for the benefit of others, without reward for their efforts.  You can't even find that in fairytales.
Click to expand...

*Making Main Street a Dead-End Street*

College means sacrificing your youth to make parasitic employers richer.  Getting a job because you can go four or more years without a job only makes sense to immature wimps who see the rich as father figures.


----------



## The Sage of Main Street

EGR one said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EGR one said:
> 
> 
> 
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> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EGR one said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> But we find it in the capitalist system. Proletarians do exactly that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Capitalism is nothing more than the natural state of human existence.  It is driven by individual self interest.  I learn and I work because it is in my self interest to do so.  I get out of life what I am willing to put into it, not what someone else thinks I should be happy with.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why do you think it would not be in your self interest to learn and work in a Marxist system?
> 
> Marx believed that you as the worker produces value. He believes you get to keep the full value of your labor.
> 
> In the capitalist system, the worker only gets a fraction of the value that he/she produces.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Marx believed that all laborers should be paid the same regardless of their knowledge or skills.  No one gets to keep the full value of their labor.  Government always takes a cut.
> 
> If a worker works for himself, he gets the value of his labor, minus the government's share.  If he works for someone else, he gets what he agrees to take in exchange for his labor, minus the government's cut.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Do you pay taxes in America? Lol
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Of course, that is the government's cut of my income.  If government exists, it will always get it's cut.
Click to expand...

You preach that we should go through the unfunded mandate of college education, yet you don't know the difference between _its _and _it's_.  A learning disability in English is not specific; it is carried over to job-related subjects, too.  Bootlicking no-talent brownnoses who submit to working without pay doing college work steal their jobs.


----------



## impuretrash

I tried reading the Communist Manifesto once, because I was curious. But it was dreadfully boring so I gave up.


----------



## Tehon

Selivan said:


> I have a very complicated tool ...
> It's called a ЛОМ
> 
> View attachment 177880
> 
> I'll give it to the stupid chatterbox of this branch, to deal with the matter


There is the Russian pseudo-communist we've all come to know.


----------



## Tehon

impuretrash said:


> I tried reading the Communist Manifesto once, because I was curious. But it was dreadfully boring so I gave up.


It was written for people who already have a foundation in the workings of the philosophy.


----------



## impuretrash

Tehon said:


> impuretrash said:
> 
> 
> 
> I tried reading the Communist Manifesto once, because I was curious. But it was dreadfully boring so I gave up.
> 
> 
> 
> It was written for people who already have a foundation in the workings of the philosophy.
Click to expand...


Under marxism, what would happen to the house I own, that I bought and paid for with my own labor? Would I not be allowed to pass it on to my children?


----------



## Tehon

impuretrash said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> impuretrash said:
> 
> 
> 
> I tried reading the Communist Manifesto once, because I was curious. But it was dreadfully boring so I gave up.
> 
> 
> 
> It was written for people who already have a foundation in the workings of the philosophy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Under marxism, what would happen to the house I own, that I bought and paid for with my own labor? Would I not be allowed to pass it on to my children?
Click to expand...

The International Workingmen's Association, The right of inheritance


----------



## impuretrash

Tehon said:


> impuretrash said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> impuretrash said:
> 
> 
> 
> I tried reading the Communist Manifesto once, because I was curious. But it was dreadfully boring so I gave up.
> 
> 
> 
> It was written for people who already have a foundation in the workings of the philosophy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Under marxism, what would happen to the house I own, that I bought and paid for with my own labor? Would I not be allowed to pass it on to my children?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The International Workingmen's Association, The right of inheritance
Click to expand...


Sounds like a terrible idea to me, and it's no wonder Marx warns against abolishing the right of inheritance too early in the revolution, first you'd have to convince people to abandon loyalty to family.


----------



## Thunderbird

Tehon said:


> Thunderbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thunderbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do dictatorships permit speech contrary to the wishes of the dictators?
> 
> 
> 
> Am I permitted to speak freely contrary to the wishes of the bourgeois dictatorship?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are doing so right now!
> 
> Why are you terrified of my question: Do dictatorships permit speech contrary to the wishes of the dictators?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I am trying to explain to you the concept of dictatorship of the proletariat.
Click to expand...

Actually you are just running away from a simple question. Can you answer with a yes or no?



> The ideas of the ruling class are in every epoch the ruling ideas, i.e. the class which is the ruling material force of society, is at the same time its ruling intellectual force. The class which has the means of material production at its disposal, has control at the same time over the means of mental production, so that thereby... zzzzzzzz


Marxist dogma is tiresome and absurd. Of course people can produce ideas, books, and art at odds with the ruling class. Such works may become popular.


----------



## EGR one

Tehon said:


> EGR one said:
> 
> 
> 
> If he works for someone else, he gets what he agrees to take in exchange for his labor, minus the government's cut.
> 
> 
> 
> Which is less than the full value for which he produces. Hence the reason I say that in a Marxist system he receives the full value for what he produces......minus taxes of course. Which in a Marxist system would be negligible. The size of our government is a consequence of our productive system.
Click to expand...


Of course, it is less than the full value of what he produces.  Why hire someone if his/her labor is not beneficial to you?  Production requires capital, and the people who provide that capital are also entitled to a share of the production.  Why provide capital if you get nothing in return for the risk to your capital?


----------



## EGR one

Tehon said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EGR one said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EGR one said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> As long as the oppressed class – in our case, therefore, the proletariat – is not yet ripe for its self-liberation, so long will it, in its majority, recognize the existing order of society as the only possible one and remain politically the tall of the capitalist class, its extreme left wing.
> Origins of the Family- Chapter IX
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Common sense recognizes that capitalism is the only system of economics that rewards those who educate themselves and work hard.  The capitalist class is anyone with a dollar in his pocket, and will spend that dollar in furtherance of his perceived self interest.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The beggar on the street who receives a dollar from a compassionate person is a capitalist? Lol
> 
> And you talk of common sense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> He is a capitalist once he has that dollar.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You think a dollar used to purchase a commodity which will be consumed immediately is capital?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> People who lack an understanding of the system in which they partake in every day have no business discussing one completely foreign to them.
Click to expand...


I think you have just admitted defeat.


----------



## EGR one

Tehon said:


> Thunderbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thunderbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do dictatorships permit speech contrary to the wishes of the dictators?
> 
> 
> 
> Am I permitted to speak freely contrary to the wishes of the bourgeois dictatorship?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are doing so right now!
> 
> Why are you terrified of my question: Do dictatorships permit speech contrary to the wishes of the dictators?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I am trying to explain to you the concept of dictatorship of the proletariat.
> 
> You are only thinking in literal terms. You're dull. If you want to understand you are going to have to do some thinking for yourself.
> 
> Here is the concept explained. You should really start from the beginning but this should give you a sense of the concept.
> 
> The ideas of the ruling class are in every epoch the ruling ideas, i.e. the class which is the ruling material force of society, is at the same time its ruling intellectual force. The class which has the means of material production at its disposal, has control at the same time over the means of mental production, so that thereby, generally speaking, the ideas of those who lack the means of mental production are subject to it. The ruling ideas are nothing more than the ideal expression of the dominant material relationships, the dominant material relationships grasped as ideas; hence of the relationships which make the one class the ruling one, therefore, the ideas of its dominance. The individuals composing the ruling class possess among other things consciousness, and therefore think. Insofar, therefore, as they rule as a class and determine the extent and compass of an epoch, it is self-evident that they do this in its whole range, hence among other things rule also as thinkers, as producers of ideas, and regulate the production and distribution of the ideas of their age: thus their ideas are the ruling ideas of the epoch.
> 
> The German Ideology. Karl Marx 1845
Click to expand...


Apparently, you are of the opinion that the average person is too damn dumb to think anything but what the ruling class tells them to think.  I need to inform you that left wing loons are still only about 20% of our population, and the majority of the remainder are perfectly capable of thinking for ourselves.

As a free person, I have choices about how I utilize my knowledge, skills, and experience to benefit me and mine.  I can choose to become an independent enterprise.  That requires me to provide my own capital, my own management, and my own labor.  That also means that I get to keep the full value of my labor, less government's cut.  I can also choose to join with others and combine our capital, management, and labor.  That also means that the group must determine what each members capital and labor is worth to the enterprise.  Of course, members with knowledge and skills are worth more to the enterprise than those without knowledge and skills.  The value of labor is not a set value.

The choice most workers make is to seek employment with an enterprise that already exists, and where capital and management are already provided.  That means their choice is limited as to what value the enterprise sets on their labor.  They can accept or reject the deal.

Labor is rarely independent of capital, and cannot be considered without the consideration of capital.


----------



## undertherqadar

Ten to one, the poorly educated rubes never read anything by Marx or Engels, just boogie men that faux "news" told them about. Marx Engels Soros,  Alinsky  etc, just trigger words.


----------



## Tehon

EGR one said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EGR one said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EGR one said:
> 
> 
> 
> Common sense recognizes that capitalism is the only system of economics that rewards those who educate themselves and work hard.  The capitalist class is anyone with a dollar in his pocket, and will spend that dollar in furtherance of his perceived self interest.
> 
> 
> 
> The beggar on the street who receives a dollar from a compassionate person is a capitalist? Lol
> 
> And you talk of common sense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> He is a capitalist once he has that dollar.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You think a dollar used to purchase a commodity which will be consumed immediately is capital?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> People who lack an understanding of the system in which they partake in every day have no business discussing one completely foreign to them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think you have just admitted defeat.
Click to expand...

I consider it a win when I can further my understanding of something. In that respect, yea, I admitted defeat when it became apparent that you hadn't the basic knowledge of what capital is. Be proud.


----------



## Tehon

Thunderbird said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thunderbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thunderbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do dictatorships permit speech contrary to the wishes of the dictators?
> 
> 
> 
> Am I permitted to speak freely contrary to the wishes of the bourgeois dictatorship?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are doing so right now!
> 
> Why are you terrified of my question: Do dictatorships permit speech contrary to the wishes of the dictators?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I am trying to explain to you the concept of dictatorship of the proletariat.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Actually you are just running away from a simple question. Can you answer with a yes or no?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The ideas of the ruling class are in every epoch the ruling ideas, i.e. the class which is the ruling material force of society, is at the same time its ruling intellectual force. The class which has the means of material production at its disposal, has control at the same time over the means of mental production, so that thereby... zzzzzzzz
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Marxist dogma is tiresome and absurd. Of course people can produce ideas, books, and art at odds with the ruling class. Such works may become popular.
Click to expand...

So why start a thread about something you have no knowledge of and no interest in? What's the point?


----------



## Tehon

EGR one said:


> Apparently, you are of the opinion that the average person is too damn dumb to think anything but what the ruling class tells them to think. I need to inform you that left wing loons are still only about 20% of our population, and the majority of the remainder are perfectly capable of thinking for ourselves.


Riiiiiight, you're a free thinker. 


EGR one said:


> As a free person, I have choices about how I utilize my knowledge, skills, and experience to benefit me and mine. I can choose to become an independent enterprise. That requires me to provide my own capital, my own management, and my own labor. That also means that I get to keep the full value of my labor, less government's cut. I can also choose to join with others and combine our capital, management, and labor. That also means that the group must determine what each members capital and labor is worth to the enterprise. Of course, members with knowledge and skills are worth more to the enterprise than those without knowledge and skills. The value of labor is not a set value.


Your choices are based on the system, customs and laws you were born into. That were instituted by the ruling class of all the generations that preceded you.


----------



## Tehon

undertherqadar said:


> Ten to one, the poorly educated rubes never read anything by Marx or Engels, just boogie men that faux "news" told them about. Marx Engels Soros,  Alinsky  etc, just trigger words.


I believe it wasn't until just recently that the right even admitted that we have a class structure in our society. And they probably don't even realize they admitted it. Lol


----------



## ding

Tehon said:


> undertherqadar said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ten to one, the poorly educated rubes never read anything by Marx or Engels, just boogie men that faux "news" told them about. Marx Engels Soros,  Alinsky  etc, just trigger words.
> 
> 
> 
> I believe it wasn't until just recently that the right even admitted that we have a class structure in our society. And they probably don't even realize they admitted it. Lol
Click to expand...

^ dunning effect


----------



## ding

Tehon said:


> EGR one said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EGR one said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> The beggar on the street who receives a dollar from a compassionate person is a capitalist? Lol
> 
> And you talk of common sense.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He is a capitalist once he has that dollar.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You think a dollar used to purchase a commodity which will be consumed immediately is capital?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> People who lack an understanding of the system in which they partake in every day have no business discussing one completely foreign to them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think you have just admitted defeat.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I consider it a win when I can further my understanding of something. In that respect, yea, I admitted defeat when it became apparent that you hadn't the basic knowledge of what capital is. Be proud.
Click to expand...

I don't believe he is the droid you are looking for, brother.


----------



## ding

undertherqadar said:


> Ten to one, the poorly educated rubes never read anything by Marx or Engels, just boogie men that faux "news" told them about. Marx Engels Soros,  Alinsky  etc, just trigger words.


This poorly educated rube has read Marx. 

Human Requirements and Division of Labour, Marx, 1844


----------



## ding

EGR one said:


> regent said:
> 
> 
> 
> When Marx created a new type of socialism that supposedly  enabled a population to make the change to communism it upset most socialists but was a bonanza for the Republican party. It gave Republicans their new battle cry: socialism leads to communism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Socialism does not lead to Communism, it leads to the bottom for any nation that dabbles with it.  The only variable is time, and that depends on how deep the nation dabbles.
> 
> Human beings are inherently lazy in both the desire to learn and/or labor. Socialism abets those bad traits   Most human beings who have their basic needs met without effort on their part will be content to live that way.
Click to expand...

I disagree that socialism does not lead to communism, but I agree with the rest of what you wrote.  

"...socialism of any type and shade leads to a total destruction of the human spirit and to a leveling of mankind into death..."

Alexander I. Solzhenitsyn -- A World Split Apart — Commencement Address Delivered At Harvard University, June 8, 1978

Even FDR knew this.

"...The lessons of history, confirmed by the evidence immediately before me, show conclusively that continued dependence upon relief induces a spiritual and moral disintegration fundamentally destructive to the national fibre. To dole out relief in this way is to administer a narcotic, a subtle destroyer of the human spirit..."

Franklin D. Roosevelt: Annual Message to Congress

"...As humanism in its development was becoming more and more materialistic, it also increasingly allowed concepts to be used first by socialism and then by communism, so that Karl Marx was able to say, in 1844, that "communism is naturalized humanism."

This statement has proved to be not entirely unreasonable. One does not see the same stones in the foundations of an eroded humanism and of any type of socialism: boundless materialism; freedom from religion and religious responsibility (which under Communist regimes attains the stage of antireligious dictatorship); concentration on social structures with an allegedly scientific approach. (This last is typical of both the Age of Enlightenment and of Marxism.) It is no accident that all of communism's rhetorical vows revolve around Man (with a capital M) and his earthly happiness. At first glance it seems an ugly parallel: common traits in the thinking and way of life of today's West and today's East? But such is the logic of materialistic development.

The interrelationship is such, moreover, that the current of materialism which is farthest to the left, and is hence the most consistent, always proves to be stronger, more attractive, and victorious. Humanism which has lost its Christian heritage cannot prevail in this competition. Thus during the past centuries and especially in recent decades, as the process became more acute, the alignment of forces was as follows: Liberalism was inevitably pushed aside by radicalism, radicalism had to surrender to socialism, and socialism could not stand up to communism..."

Alexander I. Solzhenitsyn -- A World Split Apart — Commencement Address Delivered At Harvard University, June 8, 1978

^ worth the fifteen minute read


----------



## ding

Selivan said:


> I have a very complicated tool ...
> It's called a ЛОМ
> 
> View attachment 177880
> 
> I'll give it to the stupid chatterbox of this branch, to deal with the matter


I have a very complicated tool that I got from a couple of Russians.  Here it is.

Socialism intentionally denies examination because it is irrational. There is no formal defined dogma of socialism. Instead there is only a vague, rosy notion of something good, noble and just: the advent of these things will bring instant euphoria and a social order beyond reproach. Socialism seeks equality through uniformity and communal ownership. Socialism has an extraordinary ability to incite and inflame its adherents and inspire social movements. Socialists dismiss their defeats and ignore their incongruities. They desire big government and use big government to implement their morally relativistic social policies. Socialism is a religion. The religious nature of socialism explains their hostility towards traditional religions which is that of one rival religion over another. Their dogma is based on materialism, primitive instincts, atheism and the deification of man. They see no distinction between good and evil, no morality or any other kind of value, save pleasure. They practice moral relativity, indiscriminate indiscriminateness, multiculturalism, cultural Marxism and normalization of deviance. They worship science but are the first to reject it when it suits their purposes. They can be identified by an external locus of control. Their religious doctrine is abolition of private property, abolition of family, abolition of religion and equality via uniformity and communal ownership. They practice critical theory which is the Cultural Marxist theory to criticize what they do not believe to arrive at what they do believe without ever having to examine what they believe. They confuse critical theory for critical thinking. Critical thinking is the practice of challenging what one does believe to test its validity. Something they never do.


----------



## Tehon

ding said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> undertherqadar said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ten to one, the poorly educated rubes never read anything by Marx or Engels, just boogie men that faux "news" told them about. Marx Engels Soros,  Alinsky  etc, just trigger words.
> 
> 
> 
> I believe it wasn't until just recently that the right even admitted that we have a class structure in our society. And they probably don't even realize they admitted it. Lol
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ^ dunning effect
Click to expand...

Are you a psychologist? Or just pretend to be one on the interwebs?

Trump vs. the global elite


----------



## ding

Tehon said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> undertherqadar said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ten to one, the poorly educated rubes never read anything by Marx or Engels, just boogie men that faux "news" told them about. Marx Engels Soros,  Alinsky  etc, just trigger words.
> 
> 
> 
> I believe it wasn't until just recently that the right even admitted that we have a class structure in our society. And they probably don't even realize they admitted it. Lol
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ^ dunning effect
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you a psychologist? Or just pretend to be one on the interwebs?
> 
> Trump vs. the global elite
Click to expand...

No, if I were a psychologist I would have explained to you that your brain cannot live in conflict so you need to rationalize things to confirm your bias. 

The reality is that what you just did was a textbook example of the dunning effect.  Which is why you are not arguing that it wasn't.


----------



## EGR one

Tehon said:


> EGR one said:
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently, you are of the opinion that the average person is too damn dumb to think anything but what the ruling class tells them to think. I need to inform you that left wing loons are still only about 20% of our population, and the majority of the remainder are perfectly capable of thinking for ourselves.
> 
> 
> 
> Riiiiiight, you're a free thinker.
> 
> 
> EGR one said:
> 
> 
> 
> As a free person, I have choices about how I utilize my knowledge, skills, and experience to benefit me and mine. I can choose to become an independent enterprise. That requires me to provide my own capital, my own management, and my own labor. That also means that I get to keep the full value of my labor, less government's cut. I can also choose to join with others and combine our capital, management, and labor. That also means that the group must determine what each members capital and labor is worth to the enterprise. Of course, members with knowledge and skills are worth more to the enterprise than those without knowledge and skills. The value of labor is not a set value.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Your choices are based on the system, customs and laws you were born into. That were instituted by the ruling class of all the generations that preceded you.
Click to expand...


Pure nonsense!  What system, custom or law would prevent me from making the choice to start my own business, or joining with others to start a business?  Obviously, there is no system, custom, or law that would prevent me from working for a business or another individual.


----------



## Tehon

ding said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ding said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> undertherqadar said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ten to one, the poorly educated rubes never read anything by Marx or Engels, just boogie men that faux "news" told them about. Marx Engels Soros,  Alinsky  etc, just trigger words.
> 
> 
> 
> I believe it wasn't until just recently that the right even admitted that we have a class structure in our society. And they probably don't even realize they admitted it. Lol
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ^ dunning effect
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you a psychologist? Or just pretend to be one on the interwebs?
> 
> Trump vs. the global elite
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, if I were a psychologist I would have explained to you that your brain cannot live in conflict so you need to rationalize things to confirm your bias.
> 
> The reality is that what you just did was a textbook example of the dunning effect.  Which is why you are not arguing that it wasn't.
Click to expand...

Who doesn't do it?

I don't believe you are applying the dunning effect properly Dr.


----------



## Tehon

EGR one said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EGR one said:
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently, you are of the opinion that the average person is too damn dumb to think anything but what the ruling class tells them to think. I need to inform you that left wing loons are still only about 20% of our population, and the majority of the remainder are perfectly capable of thinking for ourselves.
> 
> 
> 
> Riiiiiight, you're a free thinker.
> 
> 
> EGR one said:
> 
> 
> 
> As a free person, I have choices about how I utilize my knowledge, skills, and experience to benefit me and mine. I can choose to become an independent enterprise. That requires me to provide my own capital, my own management, and my own labor. That also means that I get to keep the full value of my labor, less government's cut. I can also choose to join with others and combine our capital, management, and labor. That also means that the group must determine what each members capital and labor is worth to the enterprise. Of course, members with knowledge and skills are worth more to the enterprise than those without knowledge and skills. The value of labor is not a set value.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Your choices are based on the system, customs and laws you were born into. That were instituted by the ruling class of all the generations that preceded you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Pure nonsense!  What system, custom or law would prevent me from making the choice to start my own business, or joining with others to start a business?  Obviously, there is no system, custom, or law that would prevent me from working for a business or another individual.
Click to expand...

There is a legal framework for starting your business. That legal framework was developed by the ruling class over the course of generations.


----------



## ding

Tehon said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ding said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> undertherqadar said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ten to one, the poorly educated rubes never read anything by Marx or Engels, just boogie men that faux "news" told them about. Marx Engels Soros,  Alinsky  etc, just trigger words.
> 
> 
> 
> I believe it wasn't until just recently that the right even admitted that we have a class structure in our society. And they probably don't even realize they admitted it. Lol
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ^ dunning effect
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you a psychologist? Or just pretend to be one on the interwebs?
> 
> Trump vs. the global elite
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, if I were a psychologist I would have explained to you that your brain cannot live in conflict so you need to rationalize things to confirm your bias.
> 
> The reality is that what you just did was a textbook example of the dunning effect.  Which is why you are not arguing that it wasn't.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Who doesn't do it?
> 
> I don't believe you are applying the dunning effect properly Dr.
Click to expand...

How am I misapplying it? 

And no, not everyone assumes they are superior to others and that others are inferior to them.  That's the dunning effect in a nutshell.  Its application extends to beyond intelligence.  

Intelligent people see themselves as nothing special and don't see others as less than special.


----------



## Tehon

ding said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ding said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ding said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe it wasn't until just recently that the right even admitted that we have a class structure in our society. And they probably don't even realize they admitted it. Lol
> 
> 
> 
> ^ dunning effect
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you a psychologist? Or just pretend to be one on the interwebs?
> 
> Trump vs. the global elite
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, if I were a psychologist I would have explained to you that your brain cannot live in conflict so you need to rationalize things to confirm your bias.
> 
> The reality is that what you just did was a textbook example of the dunning effect.  Which is why you are not arguing that it wasn't.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Who doesn't do it?
> 
> I don't believe you are applying the dunning effect properly Dr.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How am I misapplying it?
> 
> And no, not everyone assumes they are superior to others and that others are inferior to them.  That's the dunning effect in a nutshell.  Its application extends to beyond intelligence.
> 
> Intelligent people see themselves as nothing special and don't see others as less than special.
Click to expand...

I stated an opinion. Is every person that states their opinion subject to the dunning effect?

You're not a psychologist, is your opinion of me subject to the dunning effect?


----------



## ding

Tehon said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ding said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ding said:
> 
> 
> 
> ^ dunning effect
> 
> 
> 
> Are you a psychologist? Or just pretend to be one on the interwebs?
> 
> Trump vs. the global elite
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, if I were a psychologist I would have explained to you that your brain cannot live in conflict so you need to rationalize things to confirm your bias.
> 
> The reality is that what you just did was a textbook example of the dunning effect.  Which is why you are not arguing that it wasn't.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Who doesn't do it?
> 
> I don't believe you are applying the dunning effect properly Dr.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How am I misapplying it?
> 
> And no, not everyone assumes they are superior to others and that others are inferior to them.  That's the dunning effect in a nutshell.  Its application extends to beyond intelligence.
> 
> Intelligent people see themselves as nothing special and don't see others as less than special.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I stated an opinion. Is every person that states their opinion subject to the dunning effect?
> 
> You're not a psychologist, is your opinion of me subject to the dunning effect?
Click to expand...

Your statement that:



> I believe it wasn't until just recently that the right even admitted that we have a class structure in our society. And they probably don't even realize they admitted it.



Implies that you believe that you are more intelligent than an entire class of people.  You overestimate your intelligence and you underestimate the intelligence of others.  That's the dunning effect.


----------



## Tehon

ding said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ding said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ding said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you a psychologist? Or just pretend to be one on the interwebs?
> 
> Trump vs. the global elite
> 
> 
> 
> No, if I were a psychologist I would have explained to you that your brain cannot live in conflict so you need to rationalize things to confirm your bias.
> 
> The reality is that what you just did was a textbook example of the dunning effect.  Which is why you are not arguing that it wasn't.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Who doesn't do it?
> 
> I don't believe you are applying the dunning effect properly Dr.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How am I misapplying it?
> 
> And no, not everyone assumes they are superior to others and that others are inferior to them.  That's the dunning effect in a nutshell.  Its application extends to beyond intelligence.
> 
> Intelligent people see themselves as nothing special and don't see others as less than special.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I stated an opinion. Is every person that states their opinion subject to the dunning effect?
> 
> You're not a psychologist, is your opinion of me subject to the dunning effect?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Your statement that:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe it wasn't until just recently that the right even admitted that we have a class structure in our society. And they probably don't even realize they admitted it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Implies that you believe that you are more intelligent than an entire class of people.  You overestimate your intelligence and you underestimate the intelligence of others.  That's the dunning effect.
Click to expand...

The dunning-Kruger effect is a cognitive bias where people who are incompetent at something are unable to recognize their incompetence and believe instead that they are competent.

Like when people play doctor on the internet.


----------



## ding

Tehon said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ding said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ding said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, if I were a psychologist I would have explained to you that your brain cannot live in conflict so you need to rationalize things to confirm your bias.
> 
> The reality is that what you just did was a textbook example of the dunning effect.  Which is why you are not arguing that it wasn't.
> 
> 
> 
> Who doesn't do it?
> 
> I don't believe you are applying the dunning effect properly Dr.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How am I misapplying it?
> 
> And no, not everyone assumes they are superior to others and that others are inferior to them.  That's the dunning effect in a nutshell.  Its application extends to beyond intelligence.
> 
> Intelligent people see themselves as nothing special and don't see others as less than special.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I stated an opinion. Is every person that states their opinion subject to the dunning effect?
> 
> You're not a psychologist, is your opinion of me subject to the dunning effect?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Your statement that:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe it wasn't until just recently that the right even admitted that we have a class structure in our society. And they probably don't even realize they admitted it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Implies that you believe that you are more intelligent than an entire class of people.  You overestimate your intelligence and you underestimate the intelligence of others.  That's the dunning effect.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The dunning-Kruger effect is a cognitive bias where people who are incompetent at something are unable to recognize their incompetence and believe instead that they are competent.
> 
> Like when people play doctor on the internet.
Click to expand...

Are you cherry picking again. Keep reading about it.


----------



## Tehon

ding said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ding said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ding said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who doesn't do it?
> 
> I don't believe you are applying the dunning effect properly Dr.
> 
> 
> 
> How am I misapplying it?
> 
> And no, not everyone assumes they are superior to others and that others are inferior to them.  That's the dunning effect in a nutshell.  Its application extends to beyond intelligence.
> 
> Intelligent people see themselves as nothing special and don't see others as less than special.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I stated an opinion. Is every person that states their opinion subject to the dunning effect?
> 
> You're not a psychologist, is your opinion of me subject to the dunning effect?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Your statement that:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe it wasn't until just recently that the right even admitted that we have a class structure in our society. And they probably don't even realize they admitted it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Implies that you believe that you are more intelligent than an entire class of people.  You overestimate your intelligence and you underestimate the intelligence of others.  That's the dunning effect.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The dunning-Kruger effect is a cognitive bias where people who are incompetent at something are unable to recognize their incompetence and believe instead that they are competent.
> 
> Like when people play doctor on the internet.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you cherry picking again. Keep reading about it.
Click to expand...

There is nothing more to tell.


----------



## The Sage of Main Street

impuretrash said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> impuretrash said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> impuretrash said:
> 
> 
> 
> I tried reading the Communist Manifesto once, because I was curious. But it was dreadfully boring so I gave up.
> 
> 
> 
> It was written for people who already have a foundation in the workings of the philosophy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Under marxism, what would happen to the house I own, that I bought and paid for with my own labor? Would I not be allowed to pass it on to my children?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The International Workingmen's Association, The right of inheritance
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sounds like a terrible idea to me, and it's no wonder Marx warns against abolishing the right of inheritance too early in the revolution, first you'd have to convince people to abandon loyalty to family.
Click to expand...

*A Higher Loyalty *

Inheritance is anti-social.  The playing field belongs to the most naturally talented, not to incompetents set up with a head start because of Daddy's Money.


----------



## Moonglow

ding said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ding said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ding said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe it wasn't until just recently that the right even admitted that we have a class structure in our society. And they probably don't even realize they admitted it. Lol
> 
> 
> 
> ^ dunning effect
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you a psychologist? Or just pretend to be one on the interwebs?
> 
> Trump vs. the global elite
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, if I were a psychologist I would have explained to you that your brain cannot live in conflict so you need to rationalize things to confirm your bias.
> 
> The reality is that what you just did was a textbook example of the dunning effect.  Which is why you are not arguing that it wasn't.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Who doesn't do it?
> 
> I don't believe you are applying the dunning effect properly Dr.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How am I misapplying it?
> 
> And no, not everyone assumes they are superior to others and that others are inferior to them.  That's the dunning effect in a nutshell.  Its application extends to beyond intelligence.
> 
> Intelligent people see themselves as nothing special and don't see others as less than special.
Click to expand...

You just called Trump an ass...


----------



## Moonglow

The Sage of Main Street said:


> impuretrash said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> impuretrash said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> impuretrash said:
> 
> 
> 
> I tried reading the Communist Manifesto once, because I was curious. But it was dreadfully boring so I gave up.
> 
> 
> 
> It was written for people who already have a foundation in the workings of the philosophy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Under marxism, what would happen to the house I own, that I bought and paid for with my own labor? Would I not be allowed to pass it on to my children?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The International Workingmen's Association, The right of inheritance
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sounds like a terrible idea to me, and it's no wonder Marx warns against abolishing the right of inheritance too early in the revolution, first you'd have to convince people to abandon loyalty to family.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *A Higher Loyalty *
> 
> Inheritance is anti-social.  The playing field belongs to the most naturally talented, not to incompetents set up with a head start because of Daddy's Money.
Click to expand...

Enlightened despots can rule in capitalist societies just as easily as a socialistic one...


----------



## The Sage of Main Street

EGR one said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EGR one said:
> 
> 
> 
> If he works for someone else, he gets what he agrees to take in exchange for his labor, minus the government's cut.
> 
> 
> 
> Which is less than the full value for which he produces. Hence the reason I say that in a Marxist system he receives the full value for what he produces......minus taxes of course. Which in a Marxist system would be negligible. The size of our government is a consequence of our productive system.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Of course, it is less than the full value of what he produces.  Why hire someone if his/her labor is not beneficial to you?  Production requires capital, and the people who provide that capital are also entitled to a share of the production.  Why provide capital if you get nothing in return for the risk to your capital?
Click to expand...

*One-Sided Arguments Are Dishonest by Nature*

Why work for someone if the amount of his cut of what you produce is not beneficial to you? Why fund what he leaves for inheritance if that is not beneficial to your own kid's chances of getting ahead?

  Of course, you don't quantify the take, in order to pretend that the employees don't want a fair share; they want it all.  Bootlickers of The Plutes Who Wear the Boots preach in this deceptive method, which is the real reason they (not their imaginary opponents) imposed dumbed-down education.  Only those with shallow and stunted minds can be persuaded by such simple-minded sales pitches.


----------



## ding

Tehon said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ding said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ding said:
> 
> 
> 
> How am I misapplying it?
> 
> And no, not everyone assumes they are superior to others and that others are inferior to them.  That's the dunning effect in a nutshell.  Its application extends to beyond intelligence.
> 
> Intelligent people see themselves as nothing special and don't see others as less than special.
> 
> 
> 
> I stated an opinion. Is every person that states their opinion subject to the dunning effect?
> 
> You're not a psychologist, is your opinion of me subject to the dunning effect?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Your statement that:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe it wasn't until just recently that the right even admitted that we have a class structure in our society. And they probably don't even realize they admitted it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Implies that you believe that you are more intelligent than an entire class of people.  You overestimate your intelligence and you underestimate the intelligence of others.  That's the dunning effect.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The dunning-Kruger effect is a cognitive bias where people who are incompetent at something are unable to recognize their incompetence and believe instead that they are competent.
> 
> Like when people play doctor on the internet.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you cherry picking again. Keep reading about it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There is nothing more to tell.
Click to expand...

People who are intelligent tend to see themselves as less intelligent than they are and others as more intelligent than they are.  People who are not intelligent tend to see themselves as more intelligent than they are and others as less intelligent than they are.   That's the dunning effect and that is exactly what you did to an entire class of people.


----------



## Tehon

ding said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ding said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ding said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> I stated an opinion. Is every person that states their opinion subject to the dunning effect?
> 
> You're not a psychologist, is your opinion of me subject to the dunning effect?
> 
> 
> 
> Your statement that:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe it wasn't until just recently that the right even admitted that we have a class structure in our society. And they probably don't even realize they admitted it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Implies that you believe that you are more intelligent than an entire class of people.  You overestimate your intelligence and you underestimate the intelligence of others.  That's the dunning effect.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The dunning-Kruger effect is a cognitive bias where people who are incompetent at something are unable to recognize their incompetence and believe instead that they are competent.
> 
> Like when people play doctor on the internet.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you cherry picking again. Keep reading about it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There is nothing more to tell.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> People who are intelligent tend to see themselves as less intelligent than they are and others as more intelligent than they are.  People who are not intelligent tend to see themselves as more intelligent than they are and others as less intelligent than they are.   That's the dunning effect and that is exactly what you did to an entire class of people.
Click to expand...

You're wrong. The study doesn't examine the individuals perception of others. You are making it up. I already correctly summarized the findings.


Tehon said:


> The dunning-Kruger effect is a cognitive bias where people who are incompetent at something are unable to recognize their incompetence and believe instead that they are competent.


The only thing you we can add to that is that the inverse applies. People with a higher degree of competence are more likely to recognize their own shortcomings.

Here is a link to the study.

https://www.avaresearch.com/files/UnskilledAndUnawareOfIt.pdf


> People tend to hold overly favorable views of their abilities in many social and intellectual domains. The authors suggest that this overestimation occurs, in part, because people who are unskilled in these domains suffer a dual burden: Not only do these people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices, but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it. Across 4 studies, the authors found that participants scoring in the bottom quartile on tests of humor, grammar, and logic grossly overestimated their test performance and ability. Although their test scores put them in the 12th percentile, they estimated themselves to be in the 62nd. Several analyses linked this miscalibration to deficits in metacognitive skill, or the capacity to distinguish accuracy from error. Paradoxically, improving the skills of participants, and thus increasing their metacognitive competence, helped them recognize the limitations of their abilities.


----------



## Inmar

Stop writing quotes from Solzhenitsyn. This is not even funny. If you are so interested in Soviet collaborators and emigrants, it is better to "Veles book" .. this is a bestseller! For idiots. 

But, seriously, we must study and quote the works of Lenin. 
 for example Marx believed that the socialist revolution can occur only in the most developed capitalist countries 
Lenin believed that the socialist revolution could occur only in the weakest link in the capitalist countries
. Lenin was right. He made the Revolution and gave preconditions for building Socialism.
 Stalin implemented Lenin's ideas and built the World Power. 
 Marx hated the Russians, all his works were sponsored by Engels. Marx did not solve a single question, he was only able to make children and eat


----------



## Tehon

Inmar said:


> Stop writing quotes from Solzhenitsyn. This is not even funny. If you are so interested in Soviet collaborators and emigrants, it is better to "Veles book" .. this is a bestseller! For idiots.
> 
> But, seriously, we must study and quote the works of Lenin.
> for example Marx believed that the socialist revolution can occur only in the most developed capitalist countries
> Lenin believed that the socialist revolution could occur only in the weakest link in the capitalist countries
> . Lenin was right. He made the Revolution and gave preconditions for building Socialism.
> Stalin implemented Lenin's ideas and built the World Power.
> Marx hated the Russians, all his works were sponsored by Engels. Marx did not solve a single question, he was only able to make children and eat


Lenin was wrong. History has proven it.


----------



## ding

Inmar said:


> Stop writing quotes from Solzhenitsyn. This is not even funny. If you are so interested in Soviet collaborators and emigrants, it is better to "Veles book" .. this is a bestseller! For idiots.
> 
> But, seriously, we must study and quote the works of Lenin.
> for example Marx believed that the socialist revolution can occur only in the most developed capitalist countries
> Lenin believed that the socialist revolution could occur only in the weakest link in the capitalist countries
> . Lenin was right. He made the Revolution and gave preconditions for building Socialism.
> Stalin implemented Lenin's ideas and built the World Power.
> Marx hated the Russians, all his works were sponsored by Engels. Marx did not solve a single question, he was only able to make children and eat


----------



## ding

Tehon said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ding said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ding said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your statement that:
> 
> Implies that you believe that you are more intelligent than an entire class of people.  You overestimate your intelligence and you underestimate the intelligence of others.  That's the dunning effect.
> 
> 
> 
> The dunning-Kruger effect is a cognitive bias where people who are incompetent at something are unable to recognize their incompetence and believe instead that they are competent.
> 
> Like when people play doctor on the internet.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you cherry picking again. Keep reading about it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There is nothing more to tell.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> People who are intelligent tend to see themselves as less intelligent than they are and others as more intelligent than they are.  People who are not intelligent tend to see themselves as more intelligent than they are and others as less intelligent than they are.   That's the dunning effect and that is exactly what you did to an entire class of people.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You're wrong. The study doesn't examine the individuals perception of others. You are making it up. I already correctly summarized the findings.
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> The dunning-Kruger effect is a cognitive bias where people who are incompetent at something are unable to recognize their incompetence and believe instead that they are competent.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The only thing you we can add to that is that the inverse applies. People with a higher degree of competence are more likely to recognize their own shortcomings.
> 
> Here is a link to the study.
> 
> https://www.avaresearch.com/files/UnskilledAndUnawareOfIt.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> People tend to hold overly favorable views of their abilities in many social and intellectual domains. The authors suggest that this overestimation occurs, in part, because people who are unskilled in these domains suffer a dual burden: Not only do these people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices, but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it. Across 4 studies, the authors found that participants scoring in the bottom quartile on tests of humor, grammar, and logic grossly overestimated their test performance and ability. Although their test scores put them in the 12th percentile, they estimated themselves to be in the 62nd. Several analyses linked this miscalibration to deficits in metacognitive skill, or the capacity to distinguish accuracy from error. Paradoxically, improving the skills of participants, and thus increasing their metacognitive competence, helped them recognize the limitations of their abilities.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

You are the freaking poster child for the dunning effect.

In the field of psychology, the *Dunning–Kruger effect* is a cognitive bias wherein people of low ability suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly assessing their cognitive ability as greater than it is. The cognitive bias of illusory superiority derives from the metacognitive inability of low-ability persons to recognize their own ineptitude; without the self-awarenessof metacognition, low-ability people cannot objectively evaluate their actual competence or incompetence.[1]

Conversely, highly competent individuals may erroneously assume that tasks easy for them to perform are also easy for other people to perform, or that other people will have a similar understanding of subjects that they themselves are well-versed in.[2]

As described by social psychologists David Dunning and Justin Kruger, the cognitive bias of illusory superiority results from an internal illusion in people of low ability and from an external misperception in people of high ability; that is, "the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others."[1]

Dunning–Kruger effect - Wikipedia


----------



## irosie91

I used to LIKE  the science of psychology ------and was DELIGHTED TO READ stuff -----like ERIKSON and
FROMM    etc etc-----------I am so glad that  I MISSED DUNNING AND KRUGER ---gobbly gook 101


----------



## Tehon

ding said:


> You are the freaking poster child for the dunning effect.


Lol, I see it now. I'm an idiot! Pretty funny actually. 

Thank you. I am smarter today than I was yesterday. Winning.


----------



## Tehon

irosie91 said:


> I used to LIKE  the science of psychology ------and was DELIGHTED TO READ stuff -----like ERIKSON and
> FROMM    etc etc-----------I am so glad that  I MISSED DUNNING AND KRUGER ---gobbly gook 101


It is actually quite interesting. By Ding not addressing the validity of my post directly and instead calling into question my ability to recognize competence in others he opened himself to the same criticism he leveled at me.


----------



## ding

Tehon said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I used to LIKE  the science of psychology ------and was DELIGHTED TO READ stuff -----like ERIKSON and
> FROMM    etc etc-----------I am so glad that  I MISSED DUNNING AND KRUGER ---gobbly gook 101
> 
> 
> 
> It is actually quite interesting. By Ding not addressing the validity of my post directly and instead calling into question my ability to recognize competence in others he opened himself to the same criticism he leveled at me.
Click to expand...

Wrong.


----------



## Tehon

ding said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I used to LIKE  the science of psychology ------and was DELIGHTED TO READ stuff -----like ERIKSON and
> FROMM    etc etc-----------I am so glad that  I MISSED DUNNING AND KRUGER ---gobbly gook 101
> 
> 
> 
> It is actually quite interesting. By Ding not addressing the validity of my post directly and instead calling into question my ability to recognize competence in others he opened himself to the same criticism he leveled at me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wrong.
Click to expand...




ding said:


> You overestimate your intelligence and you underestimate the intelligence of others.


You didn't address the validity of what I said. Instead you made a judgement about my competency to make such an evaluation. 

Summary. In sum, Phase 2 of Study 3 revealed several effectsof interests. First, consistent with Prediction 2, participants in thebottom quartile demonstrated deficient metacognitive skills. *Com-pared with top-quartile performers, incompetent individuals wereless able to recognize competence in others. *


----------



## irosie91

Tehon said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I used to LIKE  the science of psychology ------and was DELIGHTED TO READ stuff -----like ERIKSON and
> FROMM    etc etc-----------I am so glad that  I MISSED DUNNING AND KRUGER ---gobbly gook 101
> 
> 
> 
> It is actually quite interesting. By Ding not addressing the validity of my post directly and instead calling into question my ability to recognize competence in others he opened himself to the same criticism he leveled at me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wrong.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ding said:
> 
> 
> 
> You overestimate your intelligence and you underestimate the intelligence of others.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You didn't address the validity of what I said. Instead you made a judgement about my competency to make such an evaluation.
> 
> Summary. In sum, Phase 2 of Study 3 revealed several effectsof interests. First, consistent with Prediction 2, participants in thebottom quartile demonstrated deficient metacognitive skills. *Com-pared with top-quartile performers, incompetent individuals wereless able to recognize competence in others. *
Click to expand...


LOL-----an attempt to quantitate highly subjective material


----------



## Tehon

irosie91 said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ding said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I used to LIKE  the science of psychology ------and was DELIGHTED TO READ stuff -----like ERIKSON and
> FROMM    etc etc-----------I am so glad that  I MISSED DUNNING AND KRUGER ---gobbly gook 101
> 
> 
> 
> It is actually quite interesting. By Ding not addressing the validity of my post directly and instead calling into question my ability to recognize competence in others he opened himself to the same criticism he leveled at me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wrong.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ding said:
> 
> 
> 
> You overestimate your intelligence and you underestimate the intelligence of others.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You didn't address the validity of what I said. Instead you made a judgement about my competency to make such an evaluation.
> 
> Summary. In sum, Phase 2 of Study 3 revealed several effectsof interests. First, consistent with Prediction 2, participants in thebottom quartile demonstrated deficient metacognitive skills. *Com-pared with top-quartile performers, incompetent individuals wereless able to recognize competence in others. *
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> LOL-----an attempt to quantitate highly subjective material
Click to expand...

I think I said the same thing back at post #162.


----------



## irosie91

Tehon said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ding said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I used to LIKE  the science of psychology ------and was DELIGHTED TO READ stuff -----like ERIKSON and
> FROMM    etc etc-----------I am so glad that  I MISSED DUNNING AND KRUGER ---gobbly gook 101
> 
> 
> 
> It is actually quite interesting. By Ding not addressing the validity of my post directly and instead calling into question my ability to recognize competence in others he opened himself to the same criticism he leveled at me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wrong.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ding said:
> 
> 
> 
> You overestimate your intelligence and you underestimate the intelligence of others.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You didn't address the validity of what I said. Instead you made a judgement about my competency to make such an evaluation.
> 
> Summary. In sum, Phase 2 of Study 3 revealed several effectsof interests. First, consistent with Prediction 2, participants in thebottom quartile demonstrated deficient metacognitive skills. *Com-pared with top-quartile performers, incompetent individuals wereless able to recognize competence in others. *
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> LOL-----an attempt to quantitate highly subjective material
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think I said the same thing back at post #162.
Click to expand...


BRILLIANT MINDS CONCUR


----------



## ding

Tehon said:


> ding said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I used to LIKE  the science of psychology ------and was DELIGHTED TO READ stuff -----like ERIKSON and
> FROMM    etc etc-----------I am so glad that  I MISSED DUNNING AND KRUGER ---gobbly gook 101
> 
> 
> 
> It is actually quite interesting. By Ding not addressing the validity of my post directly and instead calling into question my ability to recognize competence in others he opened himself to the same criticism he leveled at me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wrong.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ding said:
> 
> 
> 
> You overestimate your intelligence and you underestimate the intelligence of others.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You didn't address the validity of what I said. Instead you made a judgement about my competency to make such an evaluation.
> 
> Summary. In sum, Phase 2 of Study 3 revealed several effectsof interests. First, consistent with Prediction 2, participants in thebottom quartile demonstrated deficient metacognitive skills. *Com-pared with top-quartile performers, incompetent individuals wereless able to recognize competence in others. *
Click to expand...

There is nothing to assess, you did it to an entire class of people.  Do you understand anything about distributions?


----------



## ding

Inmar said:


> Stop writing quotes from Solzhenitsyn. This is not even funny. If you are so interested in Soviet collaborators and emigrants, it is better to "Veles book" .. this is a bestseller! For idiots.
> 
> But, seriously, we must study and quote the works of Lenin.
> for example Marx believed that the socialist revolution can occur only in the most developed capitalist countries
> Lenin believed that the socialist revolution could occur only in the weakest link in the capitalist countries
> . Lenin was right. He made the Revolution and gave preconditions for building Socialism.
> Stalin implemented Lenin's ideas and built the World Power.
> Marx hated the Russians, all his works were sponsored by Engels. Marx did not solve a single question, he was only able to make children and eat


*Alexander Solzhenitsyn*
 “More than half a century ago, while I was still a child, I recall hearing a number of older people offer the following explanation for the great disasters that had befallen Russia: ‘Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened.’”

“Since then I have spent well-nigh fifty years working on the history of our Revolution; in the process I have read hundreds of books, collected hundreds of personal testimonies,

and have already contributed eight volumes of my own toward the effort of clearing away the rubble left by that upheaval...But if I were asked today to formulate as concisely as possible the main cause of the ruinous Revolution that swallowed up some sixty million of our people, I could not put it more accurately than to repeat: "Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened.’”

“Templeton Lecture, May 10, 1983,” in The Solzhenitsyn Reader: New and Essential Writings, 1947-2005, eds. Edward E. Ericson, Jr. and Daniel J. Mahoney (Wilmington, DE: Intercollegiate Studies Institute, 2006), 577


----------



## ding

Inmar said:


> Stop writing quotes from Solzhenitsyn. This is not even funny. If you are so interested in Soviet collaborators and emigrants, it is better to "Veles book" .. this is a bestseller! For idiots.
> 
> But, seriously, we must study and quote the works of Lenin.
> for example Marx believed that the socialist revolution can occur only in the most developed capitalist countries
> Lenin believed that the socialist revolution could occur only in the weakest link in the capitalist countries
> . Lenin was right. He made the Revolution and gave preconditions for building Socialism.
> Stalin implemented Lenin's ideas and built the World Power.
> Marx hated the Russians, all his works were sponsored by Engels. Marx did not solve a single question, he was only able to make children and eat


The propaganda of atheism is necessary for our programs.  Vladimir Lenin


There.  Is that better?


----------



## Tehon

ding said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ding said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I used to LIKE  the science of psychology ------and was DELIGHTED TO READ stuff -----like ERIKSON and
> FROMM    etc etc-----------I am so glad that  I MISSED DUNNING AND KRUGER ---gobbly gook 101
> 
> 
> 
> It is actually quite interesting. By Ding not addressing the validity of my post directly and instead calling into question my ability to recognize competence in others he opened himself to the same criticism he leveled at me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wrong.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ding said:
> 
> 
> 
> You overestimate your intelligence and you underestimate the intelligence of others.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You didn't address the validity of what I said. Instead you made a judgement about my competency to make such an evaluation.
> 
> Summary. In sum, Phase 2 of Study 3 revealed several effectsof interests. First, consistent with Prediction 2, participants in thebottom quartile demonstrated deficient metacognitive skills. *Com-pared with top-quartile performers, incompetent individuals wereless able to recognize competence in others. *
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There is nothing to assess, you did it to an entire class of people.  Do you understand anything about distributions?
Click to expand...

Sam Harris
"The meme has become so widespread that now I've begun to notice that mentioning the Dunning-Kruger Effect is often a symptom that one is suffering from it"


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## TheGreenHornet

*The marriage of Marxism and feminism has been like the marriage of husband and wife depicted in English common law: Marxism and feminism are one, and that one is Marxism. - Heidi Hartmann*


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## regent

Thunderbird said:


> Communist atrocities:
> 
> Lenin Paints Himself Black With His Own Words
> 
> The Black Book of Communism
> 
> Opinion | Mao's Great Leap to Famine
> 
> Communism is similar to Fascism & Nazism but even worse.


It was Marx's gift to conservatism. Republicans used communism and socialism to run against every program the Democrats suggested. Social Security, welfare; every program that was suggested to help the American people was labeled communism. Now with the fear of communism getting old and tired they have begun the search for another scare word. Is fascism the new communism? I don't think fascism has the oomph of communism.


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## JakeStarkey

Alt Right fascism is every bit as scary as old communism.


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## Lastamender

regent said:


> Thunderbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> Communist atrocities:
> 
> Lenin Paints Himself Black With His Own Words
> 
> The Black Book of Communism
> 
> Opinion | Mao's Great Leap to Famine
> 
> Communism is similar to Fascism & Nazism but even worse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was Marx's gift to conservatism. Republicans used communism and socialism to run against every program the Democrats suggested. Social Security, welfare; every program that was suggested to help the American people was labeled communism. Now with the fear of communism getting old and tired they have begun the search for another scare word. Is fascism the new communism? I don't think fascism has the oomph of communism.
Click to expand...




> Now with the fear of communism getting old and tired they have begun the search for another scare word. Is fascism the new communism?



The fascism is on the Left, communist or not, what the Left advocates will turn this country into a dictatorship.


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## regent

Lastamender said:


> regent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thunderbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> Communist atrocities:
> 
> Lenin Paints Himself Black With His Own Words
> 
> The Black Book of Communism
> 
> Opinion | Mao's Great Leap to Famine
> 
> Communism is similar to Fascism & Nazism but even worse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was Marx's gift to conservatism. Republicans used communism and socialism to run against every program the Democrats suggested. Social Security, welfare; every program that was suggested to help the American people was labeled communism. Now with the fear of communism getting old and tired they have begun the search for another scare word. Is fascism the new communism? I don't think fascism has the oomph of communism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now with the fear of communism getting old and tired they have begun the search for another scare word. Is fascism the new communism?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The fascism is on the Left, communist or not, what the Left advocates will turn this country into a dictatorship.
Click to expand...


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## regent

regent said:


> Lastamender said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> regent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thunderbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> Communist atrocities:
> 
> Lenin Paints Himself Black With His Own Words
> 
> The Black Book of Communism
> 
> Opinion | Mao's Great Leap to Famine
> 
> Communism is similar to Fascism & Nazism but even worse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was Marx's gift to conservatism. Republicans used communism and socialism to run against every program the Democrats suggested. Social Security, welfare; every program that was suggested to help the American people was labeled communism. Now with the fear of communism getting old and tired they have begun the search for another scare word. Is fascism the new communism? I don't think fascism has the oomph of communism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now with the fear of communism getting old and tired they have begun the search for another scare word. Is fascism the new communism?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The fascism is on the Left, communist or not, what the Left advocates will turn this country into a dictatorship.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Did you read that in some book on political ideologies or read it on these boards. Curious as to where you got the idea fascism is on the left.


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## regent

regent said:


> regent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lastamender said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> regent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thunderbird said:
> 
> 
> 
> Communist atrocities:
> 
> Lenin Paints Himself Black With His Own Words
> 
> The Black Book of Communism
> 
> Opinion | Mao's Great Leap to Famine
> 
> Communism is similar to Fascism & Nazism but even worse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was Marx's gift to conservatism. Republicans used communism and socialism to run against every program the Democrats suggested. Social Security, welfare; every program that was suggested to help the American people was labeled communism. Now with the fear of communism getting old and tired they have begun the search for another scare word. Is fascism the new communism? I don't think fascism has the oomph of communism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now with the fear of communism getting old and tired they have begun the search for another scare word. Is fascism the new communism?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The fascism is on the Left, communist or not, what the Left advocates will turn this country into a dictatorship.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Did you read that in some book on political ideologies or read it on these boards. Curious as to where you got the idea fascism is on the left.
Click to expand...


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## Thunderbird

Fascists are on the left.  Fascist dictators favored big government programs which purported to help the people. Look at the origins of fascism and you'll find leftists like Sorel and Mussolini. Consider the name of the Nazi Party: the NSDAP The National *Socialist* German *Workers'* Party. Communism & Fascism have much in common.


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## JakeStarkey

Fascism is on the right.  Propaganda art is just . . . failed propaganda.


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## Thunderbird

Communism & Fascism have so much in common: Communism and Fascism: The Reason They Are So Similar


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## JakeStarkey

All Progressive philosophies, Democratic and Fascism and Communism, etc., have some similarities, yes.

Anyone who, though, who does that political progressive philosophies in flavors left, center, and right are malignantly motivate, feeble minded, or woefully educated, or perhaps all three.


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## Thunderbird

JakeStarkey said:


> All Progressive philosophies, Democratic and Fascism and Communism, etc., have some similarities, yes.


Elite progressives, Fascists, and Communists share many similarities!

1) Many progressives & socialists & Communists have promoted eugenics: G.B. Shaw, H.G. Wells, Margaret Sanger, W.E.B. Dubois, and Trotsky for example.

Margaret Sanger published the work of Lothrop Stoddard in her magazine. Later Stoddard praised the Nazi eugenics program for “weeding out the worst strains in the Germanic stock in a scientific and truly humanitarian way."

And check this out: Ruth Bader Ginsburg and a Question of Eugenics | National Review

2) Influential thinkers like G.B. Shaw and Ezra Pound praised *both Communist and Fascist* leaders.

3) Guess which was the first western country to recognize the Soviet Union. Answer: Fascist Italy in 1924.

4) Nazis and Communists were allies when they started WW II together.

5) Let's not forget those freedom-hating Antifa punks.


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## JakeStarkey

The RIGHT hates blacks, minorities, Jews, democracy, capitalism, and loves racism, nativism, uber nationalism, denying women's rights, etc.

See, Tbird, I can opine even better than you.


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## Thunderbird

JakeStarkey said:


> The RIGHT hates blacks, minorities, Jews, democracy, capitalism, and loves racism, nativism, uber nationalism, denying women's rights, etc.
> 
> See, Tbird, I can opine even better than you.


Many on the LEFT hate minorities and women and democracy.

Stalin engineered a famine in the Ukraine which killed millions!

The abortion industry, which is so beloved by leftists, has committed the largest mass murder of women in history!

Just one more example: The rebels Hillary supported in Libya  lynched, ethnically cleansed, tortured, and enslaved tens of thousands of black Africans!

Libyan rebel ethnic cleansing and lynching of black people

Africans are being sold at Libyan slave markets. Thanks, Hillary Clinton.

Even critics understate how catastrophically bad the Hillary Clinto...


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## JakeStarkey

None of that overseas excuses our Alt Right hating everybody and wanting to end American democracy.

The Alt Right in America are right wing neo-fascists.


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## Thunderbird

JakeStarkey said:


> None of that overseas excuses our Alt Right hating everybody and wanting to end American democracy.
> 
> The Alt Right in America are right wing neo-fascists.


Should we excuse the haters on the Left who oppose democracy and freedom?

And did you know that many of the alt-right embrace abortion?

Nobody has more in common with white supremacists than the abortion industry

Why do you feel the alt-right is so powerful? The big corporations and government bureaucracies are usually devoted to politically correctness. Isn't the intolerance on the Left far more dangerous?

Watch Ted Cruz Savage Mark Zuckerberg On Facebook's Liberal Bias

Dr. Robert Epstein: 'No Paper Trail' for Google Search Manipulation | Breitbart

Do you have any concerns with left-wing activists: Women's March Leader with Ties to Farrakhan Is Now Too Extreme for Planned Parenthood


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## Thunderbird

More on the connections between Hitler & Mussolini & and the Left: Article 1: Hitler and Mussolini: History’s Dirty Little Secret - L. K. Samuels

It's the big secret of history.  The establishment tries desperately to cover up the facts.


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## regent

Selivan said:


> regent said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has any nation since Marx came on the scene actually practiced Marx's communism?
> 
> 
> 
> There are several formations that follow one another
> 
> *1. Basic:*
> - Marxism
> - Leninism
> - Trotskyism
> - Stalinism
> 
> The development of Marxism ended in the USSR in 1956, when Khrushchev recognized the "authoritarianism of Stalin." Since then, there has been no development of Marxism, therefore, by the beginning of the 1970s the USSR "fell into the pit of ideology" ...
> Soviet people have always studied "Marxism-Leninism", but did not think about real sources ...
> 
> *2. By-products*
> - Maoism - created in China, on the basis of Stalin's ideas. This is not communism or socialism
> - KimIrSen - created in North Korea on the basis of Stalin's ideas. This is not
Click to expand...

Russia dropped Marx as a viable option soon after their revolution.


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## Thunderbird

Is it a huge coincidence that governments inspired by Marx have all ended up as tyrannies?

Link: Why Marx Was Wrong, by Carl Bildt

Excerpt: By contrast, every regime that has rejected capitalism in the name of Marxism has failed – and not by coincidence or as a result of some unfortunate doctrinal misunderstanding on the part of Marx’s followers. By abolishing private ownership and establishing state control of the economy, one not only deprives society of the entrepreneurship needed to propel it forward; one also abolishes freedom itself.

Because Marxism treats all contradictions in society as the products of a class struggle that will disappear when private property does, dissent after the establishment of communism is impossible. By definition, any challenge to the new order must be an illegitimate remnant of the oppressive order that came before.

Thus, Marxist regimes have in fact been logical extensions of his doctrines.


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## Picaro

regent said:


> Selivan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> regent said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has any nation since Marx came on the scene actually practiced Marx's communism?
> 
> 
> 
> There are several formations that follow one another
> 
> *1. Basic:*
> - Marxism
> - Leninism
> - Trotskyism
> - Stalinism
> 
> The development of Marxism ended in the USSR in 1956, when Khrushchev recognized the "authoritarianism of Stalin." Since then, there has been no development of Marxism, therefore, by the beginning of the 1970s the USSR "fell into the pit of ideology" ...
> Soviet people have always studied "Marxism-Leninism", but did not think about real sources ...
> 
> *2. By-products*
> - Maoism - created in China, on the basis of Stalin's ideas. This is not communism or socialism
> - KimIrSen - created in North Korea on the basis of Stalin's ideas. This is not
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Russia dropped Marx as a viable option soon after their revolution.
Click to expand...


Marx dropped Marxism right after Karl Menger and a couple of others published their economic studies and proofs. It's only kept alive by pseudo-intellectual fashion victims and people who can't do math. Vols. II and III of *Das Kapital*  were written by Engels and some ghost writers, not Marx, and are mostly rubbish. Few 'radicals' ever actually read that book, though, so they don't worry much about that stuff. They stick with the 6th grade level pamphlets and cheesy editorials he wrote.

You can say the same sort of thing re the right wing ideologues as well; most of them have never actually read their heroes either, and of course many of them who spam the innernetz with inanities and snivels re 'taxes' have obviously never filled out a tax return. Many of them are now busy trying to sell us the rubbish that 'companies are moving back cuz tax cuts!!!' instead of the facts, which are they see the future in Red China and the sweatshop dictatorships and it isn't pretty for them there. They're facing mass confiscation of their stuff, and higher costs in corruption payouts, and paying a little bit of tax in the U.S. looks a lot better at the moment compared t the rest of the world's future outlooks, which is mostly war and depressions.


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