# The way to keep burkini's off the beaches



## StLucieBengal




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## cnm

I'm stunned to discover anyone believes people don't have a right to wear whatever garments they wish on a beach.


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## Two Thumbs

cnm said:


> I'm stunned to discover anyone believes people don't have a right to wear whatever garments they wish on a beach.


you pretty much do in America

but in France where the islamic violence is on the upswing, I think it's more about getting them to leave the country


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## StLucieBengal

cnm said:


> I'm stunned to discover anyone believes people don't have a right to wear whatever garments they wish on a beach.



Who in their right mind thinks that showing just their eyeballs or just their face is a good thing on a beach when it's 95 degrees?    

And before you talk about how liberating it is for women to wear what they wish....   There is zero way that a wearing a Burkini is liberating for any woman.....  It would be a strange woman who thinks wearing a Burkini is a great option.


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## gtopa1

Banning the burkini is frankly a bit silly. 

Burkini ban ruled illegal in France - prompting right-wing backlash and vow from towns to ignore it

...and illegal. 

Greg


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## gtopa1

I find it odd that there are those who say a woman who wears sluttish clothing contributes to her own rape but that something as sexless as a burkini is deemed improper? Sorry; I don't see any reason to ban the burkini. In fact in a land with the highest melanoma rate in the world I would find them downright sensible!!

Greg


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## frigidweirdo

StLucieBengal said:


> cnm said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm stunned to discover anyone believes people don't have a right to wear whatever garments they wish on a beach.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who in their right mind thinks that showing just their eyeballs or just their face is a good thing on a beach when it's 95 degrees?
> 
> And before you talk about how liberating it is for women to wear what they wish....   There is zero way that a wearing a Burkini is liberating for any woman.....  It would be a strange woman who thinks wearing a Burkini is a great option.
Click to expand...


It's not a good thing to go onto the beach in that weather with just a bikini either, you can get skin cancer. 

Lots of things are stupid. Go to Malaysia and they're dipping in the sea in their clothes. 

Just because you're used to something, doesn't mean others are. In Victorian England people wouldn't have gone in a skimpy bikini. They'd have been mostly covered up.











Or covered up and their nipples showing off....


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## StLucieBengal

gtopa1 said:


> I find it odd that there are those who say a woman who wears sluttish clothing contributes to her own rape but that something as sexless as a burkini is deemed improper? Sorry; I don't see any reason to ban the burkini. In fact in a land with the highest melanoma rate in the world I would find them downright sensible!!
> 
> Greg




It's improper because it's a tool of oppression that represents a lifelong of brainwashing.


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## StLucieBengal

frigidweirdo said:


> StLucieBengal said:
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> cnm said:
> 
> 
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> I'm stunned to discover anyone believes people don't have a right to wear whatever garments they wish on a beach.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who in their right mind thinks that showing just their eyeballs or just their face is a good thing on a beach when it's 95 degrees?
> 
> And before you talk about how liberating it is for women to wear what they wish....   There is zero way that a wearing a Burkini is liberating for any woman.....  It would be a strange woman who thinks wearing a Burkini is a great option.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's not a good thing to go onto the beach in that weather with just a bikini either, you can get skin cancer.
> 
> Lots of things are stupid. Go to Malaysia and they're dipping in the sea in their clothes.
> 
> Just because you're used to something, doesn't mean others are. In Victorian England people wouldn't have gone in a skimpy bikini. They'd have been mostly covered up.
> 
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> Or covered up and their nipples showing off....
Click to expand...


If Muslims want to wear the bathing suit in that bottom photo then that's fine.


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## Dogmaphobe

cnm said:


> I'm stunned to discover anyone believes people don't have a right to wear whatever garments they wish on a beach.



I am stunned to discover that there are westerners so idiotic and naive as to think this represents an actual choice for the chattel involved.


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## Tilly

gtopa1 said:


> I find it odd that there are those who say a woman who wears sluttish clothing contributes to her own rape but that something as sexless as a burkini is deemed improper? Sorry; I don't see any reason to ban the burkini. In fact in a land with the highest melanoma rate in the world I would find them downright sensible!!
> 
> Greg


In terms of health issues, France doesn't have the rate of melanoma Australia does, nowhere in Europe does. However, vit D deficiency, which eventually results in all sorts of health problems, including osteoporosis and heart disease, is an issue for people who swathe themselves from head to toe even in the summer months. You have to expose quite a bit of skin to make vit D.


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## Mindful

Tilly said:


> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I find it odd that there are those who say a woman who wears sluttish clothing contributes to her own rape but that something as sexless as a burkini is deemed improper? Sorry; I don't see any reason to ban the burkini. In fact in a land with the highest melanoma rate in the world I would find them downright sensible!!
> 
> Greg
> 
> 
> 
> In terms of health issues, France doesn't have the rate of melanoma Australia does, nowhere in Europe does. However, vit D deficiency, which eventually results in all sorts of health problems, including osteoporosis and heart disease, is an issue for people who swathe themselves from head to toe even in the summer months. You have to expose quite a bit of skin to make vit D.
Click to expand...


Nigella wore one in Australia.


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## Mindful

What are Muslims doing on beaches filled with various stages of nudity, in the first place?


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## Tilly

frigidweirdo said:


> StLucieBengal said:
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> cnm said:
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> 
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> I'm stunned to discover anyone believes people don't have a right to wear whatever garments they wish on a beach.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who in their right mind thinks that showing just their eyeballs or just their face is a good thing on a beach when it's 95 degrees?
> 
> And before you talk about how liberating it is for women to wear what they wish....   There is zero way that a wearing a Burkini is liberating for any woman.....  It would be a strange woman who thinks wearing a Burkini is a great option.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's not a good thing to go onto the beach in that weather with just a bikini either, you can get skin cancer.
> 
> Lots of things are stupid. Go to Malaysia and they're dipping in the sea in their clothes.
> 
> Just because you're used to something, doesn't mean others are. In Victorian England people wouldn't have gone in a skimpy bikini. They'd have been mostly covered up.
> 
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> Or covered up and their nipples showing off....
Click to expand...

The French aren't living in Victorian England, nor are they living in Malaysia. Getting NO SUN is also unhealthy.


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## Tilly

StLucieBengal said:


>


Awwww cute piggies.


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## Anathema

cnm said:


> I'm stunned to discover anyone believes people don't have a right to wear whatever garments they wish on a beach.



Some of us don't believe there should be a right to wear whatever you want ANYWHERE.


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## C_Clayton_Jones

StLucieBengal said:


>


Further evidence of the bigotry and hate common to most on the right.


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## C_Clayton_Jones

StLucieBengal said:


> cnm said:
> 
> 
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> I'm stunned to discover anyone believes people don't have a right to wear whatever garments they wish on a beach.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who in their right mind thinks that showing just their eyeballs or just their face is a good thing on a beach when it's 95 degrees?
> 
> And before you talk about how liberating it is for women to wear what they wish....   There is zero way that a wearing a Burkini is liberating for any woman.....  It would be a strange woman who thinks wearing a Burkini is a great option.
Click to expand...

Who in their right mind would have such unwarranted hatred for Muslims.


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## C_Clayton_Jones

StLucieBengal said:


> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I find it odd that there are those who say a woman who wears sluttish clothing contributes to her own rape but that something as sexless as a burkini is deemed improper? Sorry; I don't see any reason to ban the burkini. In fact in a land with the highest melanoma rate in the world I would find them downright sensible!!
> 
> Greg
> 
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> It's improper because it's a tool of oppression that represents a lifelong of brainwashing.
Click to expand...

You and other conservatives are in no position to determine what is nor is not ‘improper.’

But you’ll do in anyway, the consequence of your arrogance, ignorance, fear, bigotry, and hate.


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## Mindful

Anathema said:


> cnm said:
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> I'm stunned to discover anyone believes people don't have a right to wear whatever garments they wish on a beach.
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> Some of us don't believe there should be a right to wear whatever you want ANYWHERE.
Click to expand...


Okay, we'll wear nothing. How does that sound?


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## StLucieBengal

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> StLucieBengal said:
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> Further evidence of the bigotry and hate common to most on the right.
Click to expand...


Relax Francis.   It's a photo of women in bikini's at the beach.


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## StLucieBengal

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> StLucieBengal said:
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> cnm said:
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> I'm stunned to discover anyone believes people don't have a right to wear whatever garments they wish on a beach.
> 
> 
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> Who in their right mind thinks that showing just their eyeballs or just their face is a good thing on a beach when it's 95 degrees?
> 
> And before you talk about how liberating it is for women to wear what they wish....   There is zero way that a wearing a Burkini is liberating for any woman.....  It would be a strange woman who thinks wearing a Burkini is a great option.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Who in their right mind would have such unwarranted hatred for Muslims.
Click to expand...



I don't hate Muslims.  I am however not afraid or unwilling to call out evil by name when I see it happen.   

The Muslims will be fine once they reform the violence and oppression out of their teachings.    Like every other major religion has done throughout history.


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## Anathema

Mindful said:


> Okay, we'll wear nothing. How does that sound?



So long as you're prepared for the Public Indecency charges, go for it.


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## Mindful

I should imagine these two in Scotland don't have much choice:


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## StLucieBengal

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> StLucieBengal said:
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> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I find it odd that there are those who say a woman who wears sluttish clothing contributes to her own rape but that something as sexless as a burkini is deemed improper? Sorry; I don't see any reason to ban the burkini. In fact in a land with the highest melanoma rate in the world I would find them downright sensible!!
> 
> Greg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's improper because it's a tool of oppression that represents a lifelong of brainwashing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You and other conservatives are in no position to determine what is nor is not ‘improper.’
> 
> But you’ll do in anyway, the consequence of your arrogance, ignorance, fear, bigotry, and hate.
Click to expand...



Improper = oppression of women

If you disagree than please let me know.


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## Mindful

Anathema said:


> Mindful said:
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> Okay, we'll wear nothing. How does that sound?
> 
> 
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> So long as you're prepared for the Public Indecency charges, go for it.
Click to expand...


What's indecent about God given bodies?


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## ESay

Mindful said:


> What are Muslims doing on beaches filled with various stages of nudity, in the first place?



Maybe those things which are done by the others. Swimming is usually the primary goal.

You can establish beaches for Muslims only. You already know about the pros and cons of such a move, I suppose.


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## Mindful

ESay said:


> Mindful said:
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> What are Muslims doing on beaches filled with various stages of nudity, in the first place?
> 
> 
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> Maybe those things which are done by the others. Swimming is usually the primary goal.
> 
> You can establish beaches for Muslims only. You already know about the pros and cons of such a move, I suppose.
Click to expand...


Wouldn't it resolve the issue?

I don't know how they can bear to see all that naked flesh.


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## Anathema

Mindful said:


> What's indecent about God given bodies?



Pretty much everything on the torso below the neck to the crotch, when exposed in public.


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## HereWeGoAgain

StLucieBengal said:


>



     I swam with those guys!!!


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## Mindful

Anathema said:


> Mindful said:
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> What's indecent about God given bodies?
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> Pretty much everything on the torso below the neck to the crotch, when exposed in public.
Click to expand...


No need to look.


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## Anathema

Mindful said:


> No need to look.



As someone whose Number One priority when out in public is my and my wife's personal safety, I have to look at everyone and everything around us.


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## Mindful

Anathema said:


> Mindful said:
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> No need to look.
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> As someone whose Number One priority when out in public is my and my wife's personal safety, I have to look at everyone and everything around us.
Click to expand...


Yeah right. lol


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## Anathema

Mindful said:


> [yeah right. lol.



Not interested. That's why I would never go to a nude beach or resort. Sex is unimportant to me.


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## ESay

Mindful said:


> ESay said:
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> Mindful said:
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> What are Muslims doing on beaches filled with various stages of nudity, in the first place?
> 
> 
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> Maybe those things which are done by the others. Swimming is usually the primary goal.
> 
> You can establish beaches for Muslims only. You already know about the pros and cons of such a move, I suppose.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wouldn't it resolve the issue?
> 
> I don't know how they can bear to see all that naked flesh.
Click to expand...


It depends on what you consider as the ‘issue’. Establishing Muslim-only beaches has two significant flaws – you create no-go zones for non-Muslims and halt a possible assimilation of Muslims into the society.


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## Mindful

Anathema said:


> Mindful said:
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> [yeah right. lol.
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> Not interested. That's why I would never go to a nude beach or resort. Sex is unimportant to me.
Click to expand...


What has nude to do with sex?


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## Mindful

ESay said:


> Mindful said:
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> ESay said:
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> Mindful said:
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> What are Muslims doing on beaches filled with various stages of nudity, in the first place?
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> Maybe those things which are done by the others. Swimming is usually the primary goal.
> 
> You can establish beaches for Muslims only. You already know about the pros and cons of such a move, I suppose.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wouldn't it resolve the issue?
> 
> I don't know how they can bear to see all that naked flesh.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It depends on what you consider as the ‘issue’. Establishing Muslim-only beaches has two significant flaws – you create no-go zones for non-Muslims and halt a possible assimilation of Muslims into the society.
Click to expand...


Only for beach activities.

Brighton, UK has a nudist beach. And the nudists, when they wear clothes, are assimilated into society.


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## mdk

People are literally becoming the fashion police. Too funny.


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## ESay

Mindful said:


> ESay said:
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> Mindful said:
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> ESay said:
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> Mindful said:
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> What are Muslims doing on beaches filled with various stages of nudity, in the first place?
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> 
> 
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> Maybe those things which are done by the others. Swimming is usually the primary goal.
> 
> You can establish beaches for Muslims only. You already know about the pros and cons of such a move, I suppose.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wouldn't it resolve the issue?
> 
> I don't know how they can bear to see all that naked flesh.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It depends on what you consider as the ‘issue’. Establishing Muslim-only beaches has two significant flaws – you create no-go zones for non-Muslims and halt a possible assimilation of Muslims into the society.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Only for beach activities.
> 
> Brighton, UK has a nudist beach. And the nudists, when they wear clothes, are assimilated into society.
Click to expand...


You compare weight with length. The nudists primarily share the Western mentality and have no problems integrating into the Western society because they are the Western society. Muslims are quite different story.


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## Anathema

Mindful said:


> What has nude to do with sex?



Sex is the only reason to be nude in the presence of another person.


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## Mindful

Anathema said:


> Mindful said:
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> What has nude to do with sex?
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> Sex is the only reason to be nude in the presence of another person.
Click to expand...


I don't think the Brighton town authorities would tolerate mass copulation on their beaches,

OTOH, who would want to, given some of the 'sights' ?


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## Mindful

ESay said:


> Mindful said:
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> ESay said:
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> Mindful said:
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> What are Muslims doing on beaches filled with various stages of nudity, in the first place?
> 
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> Maybe those things which are done by the others. Swimming is usually the primary goal.
> 
> You can establish beaches for Muslims only. You already know about the pros and cons of such a move, I suppose.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wouldn't it resolve the issue?
> 
> I don't know how they can bear to see all that naked flesh.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It depends on what you consider as the ‘issue’. Establishing Muslim-only beaches has two significant flaws – you create no-go zones for non-Muslims and halt a possible assimilation of Muslims into the society.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Only for beach activities.
> 
> Brighton, UK has a nudist beach. And the nudists, when they wear clothes, are assimilated into society.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You compare weight with length. The nudists primarily share the Western mentality and have no problems integrating into the Western society because they are the Western society. Muslims are quite different story.
Click to expand...


I know. I've been experiencing some of that just lately.


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## Anathema

Mindful said:


> I don't think the Brighton town authorities would tolerate mass copulation on their beaches,



I would hope not. Just as they should not tolerate nudity or improper dress.


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## ESay

Mindful said:


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> Mindful said:
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> ESay said:
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> Maybe those things which are done by the others. Swimming is usually the primary goal.
> 
> You can establish beaches for Muslims only. You already know about the pros and cons of such a move, I suppose.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wouldn't it resolve the issue?
> 
> I don't know how they can bear to see all that naked flesh.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It depends on what you consider as the ‘issue’. Establishing Muslim-only beaches has two significant flaws – you create no-go zones for non-Muslims and halt a possible assimilation of Muslims into the society.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Only for beach activities.
> 
> Brighton, UK has a nudist beach. And the nudists, when they wear clothes, are assimilated into society.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You compare weight with length. The nudists primarily share the Western mentality and have no problems integrating into the Western society because they are the Western society. Muslims are quite different story.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I know. I've been experiencing some of that just lately.
Click to expand...


What have you been experiencing?


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## Mindful

Anathema said:


> Mindful said:
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> I don't think the Brighton town authorities would tolerate mass copulation on their beaches,
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> I would hope not. Just as they should not tolerate nudity or improper dress.
Click to expand...


People ride the double decker buses up and down the Brighton sea front, just so they can gawp over the wall at the nudist beach.


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## Mindful

ESay said:


> Mindful said:
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> Mindful said:
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> ESay said:
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> Mindful said:
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> Wouldn't it resolve the issue?
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> I don't know how they can bear to see all that naked flesh.
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> 
> 
> It depends on what you consider as the ‘issue’. Establishing Muslim-only beaches has two significant flaws – you create no-go zones for non-Muslims and halt a possible assimilation of Muslims into the society.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Only for beach activities.
> 
> Brighton, UK has a nudist beach. And the nudists, when they wear clothes, are assimilated into society.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You compare weight with length. The nudists primarily share the Western mentality and have no problems integrating into the Western society because they are the Western society. Muslims are quite different story.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I know. I've been experiencing some of that just lately.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What have you been experiencing?
Click to expand...


A sort of control freakery and sense of entitlement.


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## Anathema

Mindful said:


> People ride the double decker buses up and down the Brighton sea front, just so they can gawp over the wall at the nudist beach.



Another reason to close those beaches.


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## StLucieBengal

ESay said:


> Mindful said:
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> What are Muslims doing on beaches filled with various stages of nudity, in the first place?
> 
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> Maybe those things which are done by the others. Swimming is usually the primary goal.
> 
> You can establish beaches for Muslims only. You already know about the pros and cons of such a move, I suppose.
Click to expand...


They already have Muslim only beaches.    They are any beaches im Islamic countries.


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## norwegen

Mindful said:


> Anathema said:
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> cnm said:
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> I'm stunned to discover anyone believes people don't have a right to wear whatever garments they wish on a beach.
> 
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> Some of us don't believe there should be a right to wear whatever you want ANYWHERE.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Okay, we'll wear nothing. How does that sound?
Click to expand...

What beach will you be visiting, might I ask?


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## Mindful

Anathema said:


> Mindful said:
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> People ride the double decker buses up and down the Brighton sea front, just so they can gawp over the wall at the nudist beach.
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> Another reason to close those beaches.
Click to expand...


As sex involves fantasy and imagination, I posit that the burka stimulates these conditions even more. I read a book about it once. (I'm surprised the author didn't get a Fatwa)

He described how his lukewarm relationship with his girlfriend received an explosive boost after her conversion to Islam, and she chose to cloak herself in shimmering flowing black. There's a hilarious scene in which he follows her all over Hampstead Heath, turned on beyond belief by the rear view of the undulating burka.


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## Mindful

norwegen said:


> Mindful said:
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> Anathema said:
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> cnm said:
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> I'm stunned to discover anyone believes people don't have a right to wear whatever garments they wish on a beach.
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> Some of us don't believe there should be a right to wear whatever you want ANYWHERE.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Okay, we'll wear nothing. How does that sound?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What beach will you be visiting, might I ask?
Click to expand...


Next one will be Tenerife.


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## ESay

StLucieBengal said:


> ESay said:
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> Mindful said:
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> What are Muslims doing on beaches filled with various stages of nudity, in the first place?
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> Maybe those things which are done by the others. Swimming is usually the primary goal.
> 
> You can establish beaches for Muslims only. You already know about the pros and cons of such a move, I suppose.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They already have Muslim only beaches.    They are any beaches im Islamic countries.
Click to expand...


It is great, but the only problem with this is the fact that Muslims live not only in Islamic countries.


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## Anathema

norwegen said:


> What beach will you be visiting, might I ask?



None. I find detailed the beach to generally be full of morons and immoral idiots.


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## Old Yeller

cnm said:


> I'm stunned to discover anyone believes people don't have a right to wear whatever garments they wish on a beach.



They might pull out AK47 or rocket launcher. Cant take that risk.  Go to a muslim country where blowing up humans is normal day-day stuff.  Yawn.  Thats all.....


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## Old Yeller

I saw a new peek-a-boo burkini in the "bookstore" for the quick hitter.  They ain't only going to the beach for wet feet.


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## gtopa1

StLucieBengal said:


> C_Clayton_Jones said:
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> gtopa1 said:
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> 
> 
> I find it odd that there are those who say a woman who wears sluttish clothing contributes to her own rape but that something as sexless as a burkini is deemed improper? Sorry; I don't see any reason to ban the burkini. In fact in a land with the highest melanoma rate in the world I would find them downright sensible!!
> 
> Greg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's improper because it's a tool of oppression that represents a lifelong of brainwashing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You and other conservatives are in no position to determine what is nor is not ‘improper.’
> 
> But you’ll do in anyway, the consequence of your arrogance, ignorance, fear, bigotry, and hate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Improper = oppression of women
> 
> If you disagree than please let me know.
Click to expand...


It's a swimsuit. 

Greg


----------



## gtopa1

Mindful said:


> What are Muslims doing on beaches filled with various stages of nudity, in the first place?



Same as adolescent blokes have always done I suppose. Oh; the sheilas? Getting in for a swim I suppose. Playing in the sand with or without the kids. 

Greg


----------



## gtopa1

StLucieBengal said:


> C_Clayton_Jones said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Further evidence of the bigotry and hate common to most on the right.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Relax Francis.   It's a photo of women in bikini's at the beach.
Click to expand...

....and their liberal hubbies or boyfriends. 

Greg


----------



## gtopa1

ESay said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> What are Muslims doing on beaches filled with various stages of nudity, in the first place?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe those things which are done by the others. Swimming is usually the primary goal.
> 
> You can establish beaches for Muslims only. You already know about the pros and cons of such a move, I suppose.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wouldn't it resolve the issue?
> 
> I don't know how they can bear to see all that naked flesh.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It depends on what you consider as the ‘issue’. Establishing Muslim-only beaches has two significant flaws – you create no-go zones for non-Muslims and halt a possible assimilation of Muslims into the society.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Only for beach activities.
> 
> Brighton, UK has a nudist beach. And the nudists, when they wear clothes, are assimilated into society.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You compare weight with length. The nudists primarily share the Western mentality and have no problems integrating into the Western society because they are the Western society. Muslims are quite different story.
Click to expand...


I don't agree with pubic displays of nudity!!!

Greg


----------



## gtopa1

Anathema said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> What has nude to do with sex?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sex is the only reason to be nude in the presence of another person.
Click to expand...


Well; I do wonder about those showers after footy games but didn't see any "sex" there. Might be other reasons I suppose.

Greg


----------



## gtopa1

Mindful said:


> Anathema said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> People ride the double decker buses up and down the Brighton sea front, just so they can gawp over the wall at the nudist beach.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another reason to close those beaches.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As sex involves fantasy and imagination, I posit that the burka stimulates these conditions even more. I read a book about it once. (I'm surprised the author didn't get a Fatwa)
> 
> He described how his lukewarm relationship with his girlfriend received an explosive boost after her conversion to Islam, and she chose to cloak herself in shimmering flowing black. There's a hilarious scene in which he follows her all over Hampstead Heath, turned on beyond belief by the rear view of the undulating burka.
Click to expand...


TOO MUCH INFORMATION!! lol

Greg


----------



## StLucieBengal

ESay said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> What are Muslims doing on beaches filled with various stages of nudity, in the first place?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe those things which are done by the others. Swimming is usually the primary goal.
> 
> You can establish beaches for Muslims only. You already know about the pros and cons of such a move, I suppose.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They already have Muslim only beaches.    They are any beaches im Islamic countries.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It is great, but the only problem with this is the fact that Muslims live not only in Islamic countries.
Click to expand...


there is a standard of how you dress at the beach.    The standard is not cover up everything except your eye balls .


----------



## gtopa1

Anathema said:


> norwegen said:
> 
> 
> 
> What beach will you be visiting, might I ask?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> None. I find detailed the beach to generally be full of morons and immoral idiots.
Click to expand...


Not so. I grew up near a tourist beach in Oz and never saw anyone copulating on the beach. They would have been arrested!!! Everyone I knew went for the water, the waves and associated beach sports. The bird watching was done at the pubs up the road. And yes; I am sure there were some indecent among the throng. But many more families and kids.

Greg


----------



## Anathema

gtopa1 said:


> Not so. I grew up near a tourist beach in Oz and never saw anyone copulating on the beach. They would have been arrested!!! Everyone I knew went for the water, the waves and associated beach sports. The bird watching was done at the pubs up the road. And yes; I am sure there were some indecent among the throng. But many more families and kids.



The public beaches I've seen here in New England are generally covered with drunk morons, screaming kids, and morons trying to act tough. I can go to the local park if I want that. It's not my idea of a good time.


----------



## gtopa1

Anathema said:


> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not so. I grew up near a tourist beach in Oz and never saw anyone copulating on the beach. They would have been arrested!!! Everyone I knew went for the water, the waves and associated beach sports. The bird watching was done at the pubs up the road. And yes; I am sure there were some indecent among the throng. But many more families and kids.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The public beaches I've seen here in New England are generally covered with drunk morons, screaming kids, and morons trying to act tough. I can go to the local park if I want that. It's not my idea of a good time.
Click to expand...


If the water is not the attraction then why go in the first place? The beaches here are beautiful and I swim...swam...a lot when I was younger. Took the family when they were littler as well; very fond memories indeed. But hey; I may not know that the beaches in New England may be polluted, cold and stony/muddy.






Come on over; plenty to do. I have a spare bike for riding along the bikeways next to the beach.

http://www.goldcoast.qld.gov.au/thegoldcoast/gold-coast-beaches-154.html

Gold Coast Places to See - Precincts - Beaches - Hinterland -  Queensland, Australia


----------



## yiostheoy

We need more piggies everywhere!

They can save us from Islam!


----------



## ESay

StLucieBengal said:


> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> What are Muslims doing on beaches filled with various stages of nudity, in the first place?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe those things which are done by the others. Swimming is usually the primary goal.
> 
> You can establish beaches for Muslims only. You already know about the pros and cons of such a move, I suppose.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They already have Muslim only beaches.    They are any beaches im Islamic countries.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It is great, but the only problem with this is the fact that Muslims live not only in Islamic countries.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> there is a standard of how you dress at the beach.    The standard is not cover up everything except your eye balls .
Click to expand...


Standard? Who established this standard?


----------



## gtopa1

Hmmm

Top-ranked Beaches in New England | Discover New England

OK. ...er...nice.

Greg


----------



## Mindful

yiostheoy said:


> We need more piggies everywhere!
> 
> They can save us from Islam!



Especially the ones with spots.


----------



## yiostheoy

Mindful said:


> yiostheoy said:
> 
> 
> 
> We need more piggies everywhere!
> 
> They can save us from Islam!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Especially the ones with spots.
Click to expand...

I am having bacon and eggs for breakfast.

Bacon is one of my favorite meats.

I am so glad that St. Paul reinvented Christianity and took out all the Jewish rules which have also morphed into Muslim rules as well regarding pigs, pork, ham and bacon.


----------



## Mindful

gtopa1 said:


> Hmmm
> 
> Top-ranked Beaches in New England | Discover New England
> 
> OK. ...er...nice.
> 
> Greg



I wonder how the Muslims would get on in Rio.

Binoculars are almost mandatory on those beaches.


----------



## Mindful

yiostheoy said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yiostheoy said:
> 
> 
> 
> We need more piggies everywhere!
> 
> They can save us from Islam!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Especially the ones with spots.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I am having bacon and eggs for breakfast.
> 
> Bacon is one of my favorite meats.
> 
> I am so glad that St. Paul reinvented Christianity and took out all the Jewish rules which have also morphed into Muslim rules as well regarding pigs, pork, ham and bacon.
Click to expand...


The rules are meant to remind you you can't have everything.


----------



## Anathema

gtopa1 said:


> If the water is not the attraction then why go in the first place? The beaches here are beautiful and I swim...swam...a lot when I was younger. Took the family when they were littler as well; very fond memories indeed. But hey; I may not know that the beaches in New England may be polluted, cold and stony/muddy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Come on over; plenty to do. I have a spare bike for riding along the bikeways next to the beach.
> 
> http://www.goldcoast.qld.gov.au/thegoldcoast/gold-coast-beaches-154.html
> 
> Gold Coast Places to See - Precincts - Beaches - Hinterland -  Queensland, Australia



Here in New England the beaches are generally a bit of a temperature relief in the summer. 

Thanks for the invite, but I'm mostly a homebody.


----------



## Mindful

Anathema said:


> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> If the water is not the attraction then why go in the first place? The beaches here are beautiful and I swim...swam...a lot when I was younger. Took the family when they were littler as well; very fond memories indeed. But hey; I may not know that the beaches in New England may be polluted, cold and stony/muddy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Come on over; plenty to do. I have a spare bike for riding along the bikeways next to the beach.
> 
> http://www.goldcoast.qld.gov.au/thegoldcoast/gold-coast-beaches-154.html
> 
> Gold Coast Places to See - Precincts - Beaches - Hinterland -  Queensland, Australia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here in New England the beaches are generally a bit of a temperature relief in the summer.
> 
> Thanks for the invite, but I'm mostly a homebody.
Click to expand...


I visited one of those beaches, forget where it was. It was very nice.


----------



## Jarlaxle

Tilly said:


> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I find it odd that there are those who say a woman who wears sluttish clothing contributes to her own rape but that something as sexless as a burkini is deemed improper? Sorry; I don't see any reason to ban the burkini. In fact in a land with the highest melanoma rate in the world I would find them downright sensible!!
> 
> Greg
> 
> 
> 
> In terms of health issues, France doesn't have the rate of melanoma Australia does, nowhere in Europe does. However, vit D deficiency, which eventually results in all sorts of health problems, including osteoporosis and heart disease, is an issue for people who swathe themselves from head to toe even in the summer months. You have to expose quite a bit of skin to make vit D.
Click to expand...

My mother can't.  After a bout with Lyme Disease, she is extremely sensitive to sunlight.  Even an hour will result in sun poisoning.


----------



## gtopa1

Anathema said:


> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> If the water is not the attraction then why go in the first place? The beaches here are beautiful and I swim...swam...a lot when I was younger. Took the family when they were littler as well; very fond memories indeed. But hey; I may not know that the beaches in New England may be polluted, cold and stony/muddy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Come on over; plenty to do. I have a spare bike for riding along the bikeways next to the beach.
> 
> http://www.goldcoast.qld.gov.au/thegoldcoast/gold-coast-beaches-154.html
> 
> Gold Coast Places to See - Precincts - Beaches - Hinterland -  Queensland, Australia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here in New England the beaches are generally a bit of a temperature relief in the summer.
> 
> Thanks for the invite, but I'm mostly a homebody.
Click to expand...


No worries, mate. 

I am an eyeturner when I go to the beach.






Legal at the beach in France.

Greg


----------



## frigidweirdo

StLucieBengal said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnm said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm stunned to discover anyone believes people don't have a right to wear whatever garments they wish on a beach.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who in their right mind thinks that showing just their eyeballs or just their face is a good thing on a beach when it's 95 degrees?
> 
> And before you talk about how liberating it is for women to wear what they wish....   There is zero way that a wearing a Burkini is liberating for any woman.....  It would be a strange woman who thinks wearing a Burkini is a great option.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's not a good thing to go onto the beach in that weather with just a bikini either, you can get skin cancer.
> 
> Lots of things are stupid. Go to Malaysia and they're dipping in the sea in their clothes.
> 
> Just because you're used to something, doesn't mean others are. In Victorian England people wouldn't have gone in a skimpy bikini. They'd have been mostly covered up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or covered up and their nipples showing off....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If Muslims want to wear the bathing suit in that bottom photo then that's fine.
Click to expand...


Surely it's fine if Muslims where what they want. Isn't that freedom?


----------



## StLucieBengal

frigidweirdo said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnm said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm stunned to discover anyone believes people don't have a right to wear whatever garments they wish on a beach.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who in their right mind thinks that showing just their eyeballs or just their face is a good thing on a beach when it's 95 degrees?
> 
> And before you talk about how liberating it is for women to wear what they wish....   There is zero way that a wearing a Burkini is liberating for any woman.....  It would be a strange woman who thinks wearing a Burkini is a great option.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's not a good thing to go onto the beach in that weather with just a bikini either, you can get skin cancer.
> 
> Lots of things are stupid. Go to Malaysia and they're dipping in the sea in their clothes.
> 
> Just because you're used to something, doesn't mean others are. In Victorian England people wouldn't have gone in a skimpy bikini. They'd have been mostly covered up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or covered up and their nipples showing off....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If Muslims want to wear the bathing suit in that bottom photo then that's fine.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Surely it's fine if Muslims where what they want. Isn't that freedom?
Click to expand...


So we are ok if all husbands tell their wives what they can and can not wear?    

This is an issue where religion and social acceptance comes cross.    

You didn't seem to care about religious freedom when it came to the wedding baker and the gay cake.      

According to that its been set that we favour societal norms over religious freedom.     So are we going back to religious freedom now?    Or are we telling the religious people to get over it and evolve?   Just like we did the bakers.......


----------



## frigidweirdo

StLucieBengal said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnm said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm stunned to discover anyone believes people don't have a right to wear whatever garments they wish on a beach.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who in their right mind thinks that showing just their eyeballs or just their face is a good thing on a beach when it's 95 degrees?
> 
> And before you talk about how liberating it is for women to wear what they wish....   There is zero way that a wearing a Burkini is liberating for any woman.....  It would be a strange woman who thinks wearing a Burkini is a great option.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's not a good thing to go onto the beach in that weather with just a bikini either, you can get skin cancer.
> 
> Lots of things are stupid. Go to Malaysia and they're dipping in the sea in their clothes.
> 
> Just because you're used to something, doesn't mean others are. In Victorian England people wouldn't have gone in a skimpy bikini. They'd have been mostly covered up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or covered up and their nipples showing off....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If Muslims want to wear the bathing suit in that bottom photo then that's fine.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Surely it's fine if Muslims where what they want. Isn't that freedom?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So we are ok if all husbands tell their wives what they can and can not wear?
> 
> This is an issue where religion and social acceptance comes cross.
> 
> You didn't seem to care about religious freedom when it came to the wedding baker and the gay cake.
> 
> According to that its been set that we favour societal norms over religious freedom.     So are we going back to religious freedom now?    Or are we telling the religious people to get over it and evolve?   Just like we did the bakers.......
Click to expand...


Yes, I'm okay with husbands telling their wives what to wear. It happens all the time. An ex of mine, her uncle was color blind almost totally, couldn't tell the difference between almost any color, saw perhaps two colors. His wife told him what to wear.

In an ideal world relationships would be based on equality, love, trust, all of that stuff, but so many aren't. In Islam, in Christianity, in nothing, there are people who will dominate others.

I don't like Islam, I don't like any religion, and the fact that men use it as a way of keeping women down makes me angry. However sometimes you have to accept what you don't like.

If I can do everything I want, it's anarchy, which means murder is okay, which means I can be murdered. I don't like this. So.... I prefer a limited amount of freedom where murder is wrong and I don't get murdered so I can enjoy my limited freedom. 

This is life. 

If we want freedom we have to accept that some people won't have that freedom, because they've "chosen" to not to have it. The woman has had many chances to get away, but she didn't, for whatever reasons.


----------



## StLucieBengal

frigidweirdo said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who in their right mind thinks that showing just their eyeballs or just their face is a good thing on a beach when it's 95 degrees?
> 
> And before you talk about how liberating it is for women to wear what they wish....   There is zero way that a wearing a Burkini is liberating for any woman.....  It would be a strange woman who thinks wearing a Burkini is a great option.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's not a good thing to go onto the beach in that weather with just a bikini either, you can get skin cancer.
> 
> Lots of things are stupid. Go to Malaysia and they're dipping in the sea in their clothes.
> 
> Just because you're used to something, doesn't mean others are. In Victorian England people wouldn't have gone in a skimpy bikini. They'd have been mostly covered up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or covered up and their nipples showing off....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If Muslims want to wear the bathing suit in that bottom photo then that's fine.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Surely it's fine if Muslims where what they want. Isn't that freedom?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So we are ok if all husbands tell their wives what they can and can not wear?
> 
> This is an issue where religion and social acceptance comes cross.
> 
> You didn't seem to care about religious freedom when it came to the wedding baker and the gay cake.
> 
> According to that its been set that we favour societal norms over religious freedom.     So are we going back to religious freedom now?    Or are we telling the religious people to get over it and evolve?   Just like we did the bakers.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, I'm okay with husbands telling their wives what to wear. It happens all the time. An ex of mine, her uncle was color blind almost totally, couldn't tell the difference between almost any color, saw perhaps two colors. His wife told him what to wear.
> 
> In an ideal world relationships would be based on equality, love, trust, all of that stuff, but so many aren't. In Islam, in Christianity, in nothing, there are people who will dominate others.
> 
> I don't like Islam, I don't like any religion, and the fact that men use it as a way of keeping women down makes me angry. However sometimes you have to accept what you don't like.
> 
> If I can do everything I want, it's anarchy, which means murder is okay, which means I can be murdered. I don't like this. So.... I prefer a limited amount of freedom where murder is wrong and I don't get murdered so I can enjoy my limited freedom.
> 
> This is life.
> 
> If we want freedom we have to accept that some people won't have that freedom, because they've "chosen" to not to have it. The woman has had many chances to get away, but she didn't, for whatever reasons.
Click to expand...



Well that's the difference between you and I.   I don't stand for anyone who bullies a woman.  Our women are our queens and if we don't stand up for them then who will?   

As men it's our job.


----------



## frigidweirdo

StLucieBengal said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's not a good thing to go onto the beach in that weather with just a bikini either, you can get skin cancer.
> 
> Lots of things are stupid. Go to Malaysia and they're dipping in the sea in their clothes.
> 
> Just because you're used to something, doesn't mean others are. In Victorian England people wouldn't have gone in a skimpy bikini. They'd have been mostly covered up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or covered up and their nipples showing off....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If Muslims want to wear the bathing suit in that bottom photo then that's fine.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Surely it's fine if Muslims where what they want. Isn't that freedom?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So we are ok if all husbands tell their wives what they can and can not wear?
> 
> This is an issue where religion and social acceptance comes cross.
> 
> You didn't seem to care about religious freedom when it came to the wedding baker and the gay cake.
> 
> According to that its been set that we favour societal norms over religious freedom.     So are we going back to religious freedom now?    Or are we telling the religious people to get over it and evolve?   Just like we did the bakers.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, I'm okay with husbands telling their wives what to wear. It happens all the time. An ex of mine, her uncle was color blind almost totally, couldn't tell the difference between almost any color, saw perhaps two colors. His wife told him what to wear.
> 
> In an ideal world relationships would be based on equality, love, trust, all of that stuff, but so many aren't. In Islam, in Christianity, in nothing, there are people who will dominate others.
> 
> I don't like Islam, I don't like any religion, and the fact that men use it as a way of keeping women down makes me angry. However sometimes you have to accept what you don't like.
> 
> If I can do everything I want, it's anarchy, which means murder is okay, which means I can be murdered. I don't like this. So.... I prefer a limited amount of freedom where murder is wrong and I don't get murdered so I can enjoy my limited freedom.
> 
> This is life.
> 
> If we want freedom we have to accept that some people won't have that freedom, because they've "chosen" to not to have it. The woman has had many chances to get away, but she didn't, for whatever reasons.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Well that's the difference between you and I.   I don't stand for anyone who bullies a woman.  Our women are our queens and if we don't stand up for them then who will?
> 
> As men it's our job.
Click to expand...


I don't stand for people who bully women either. However what can I do? Bullying is a fine line. If you ban bullying then people are going to be more repressed than if they were bullied. 

I once worked in a restaurant/bar (the restaurant was illegal as I found out when the inspectors turned up in town and the restaurant disappeared for a while) and a big group of people came in. The wife of one went and ordered food. One of the orders was wrong, probably not the woman's fault. But her husband started verbally laying into her. I basically told him to stop it, his response was that this whole thing should stay in the family and they never came back again. 

Did I tolerate? No I didn't.

Then again I went into a restaurant recently and a boy started hitting his grandmother quite hard. His mother did nothing about it, the father did nothing about it. What could I do? Nothing.


----------



## skye

Can you imagine go swimming like that?

where is the joy? I mean why bother for Heaven's sake?

do they take showers at home like that too?  

Mercy Lord!


----------



## frigidweirdo

skye said:


> Can you imagine go swimming like that?
> 
> where is the joy? I mean why bother for Heaven's sake?
> 
> do they take showers at home like that too?
> 
> Mercy Lord!



I always thought the purpose of religion was to make you miserable... surely this is perfect.


----------



## skye

LOL !!   ^^^   there is a salt grain of truth there!


----------



## Alex.

Bring the burkini back






It serves good purpose sometimes.


----------



## StLucieBengal

skye said:


> Can you imagine go swimming like that?
> 
> where is the joy? I mean why bother for Heaven's sake?
> 
> do they take showers at home like that too?
> 
> Mercy Lord!



Jeebus.    There is absolutely nothing right with that picture.


----------



## StLucieBengal

There was a great cartoon I saw on Twitter.   It was in French.    Was hilarious.  I will try and find this mofo.


----------



## cnm

StLucieBengal said:


> Who in their right mind thinks that showing just their eyeballs or just their face is a good thing on a beach when it's 95 degrees?


Who ever wishes to do so. Who the fuck are you to tell them different?


----------



## idb

It's a fine line

_Cover up those cheeks on South Carolina beaches or face criminal charges. Tiara Monique Garness, 22, learned this lesson while vacationing at Myrtle Beach over the Memorial Day weekend. The High Point, N.C. resident was arrested and charged with indecent exposure for wearing a thong bikini that exposed her buttocks.


Authorities allege Garness was warned that she would be detained if she didn’t don a cover-up, but she ignored police. She was arrested at 5 a.m. Friday and is being held on a $469 cash bond.


Several other trippers met the same fate. Latosha Faye Collins, 27; Tenisha Blair, 34; and Latoya Michen, 31 were all arrested for the same offense between 7:20 p.m. Friday and 2:30 a.m. Saturday._

South Carolina Police Arrest Four Women for Wearing Thong Bikinis at Myrtle Beach


----------



## cnm

StLucieBengal said:


> And before you talk about how liberating it is for women to wear what they wish.... There is zero way that a wearing a Burkini is liberating for any woman..... It would be a strange woman who thinks wearing a Burkini is a great option.


Again, who the fuck are you to determine other people's opinions?


----------



## Dont Taz Me Bro

I don't get what the big deal is


----------



## skye

StLucieBengal said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can you imagine go swimming like that?
> 
> where is the joy? I mean why bother for Heaven's sake?
> 
> do they take showers at home like that too?
> 
> Mercy Lord!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jeebus.    There is absolutely nothing right with that picture.
Click to expand...



That's right.

It's called visual pollution...to say nothing of visual provocation.


----------



## StLucieBengal

frigidweirdo said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> If Muslims want to wear the bathing suit in that bottom photo then that's fine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Surely it's fine if Muslims where what they want. Isn't that freedom?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So we are ok if all husbands tell their wives what they can and can not wear?
> 
> This is an issue where religion and social acceptance comes cross.
> 
> You didn't seem to care about religious freedom when it came to the wedding baker and the gay cake.
> 
> According to that its been set that we favour societal norms over religious freedom.     So are we going back to religious freedom now?    Or are we telling the religious people to get over it and evolve?   Just like we did the bakers.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, I'm okay with husbands telling their wives what to wear. It happens all the time. An ex of mine, her uncle was color blind almost totally, couldn't tell the difference between almost any color, saw perhaps two colors. His wife told him what to wear.
> 
> In an ideal world relationships would be based on equality, love, trust, all of that stuff, but so many aren't. In Islam, in Christianity, in nothing, there are people who will dominate others.
> 
> I don't like Islam, I don't like any religion, and the fact that men use it as a way of keeping women down makes me angry. However sometimes you have to accept what you don't like.
> 
> If I can do everything I want, it's anarchy, which means murder is okay, which means I can be murdered. I don't like this. So.... I prefer a limited amount of freedom where murder is wrong and I don't get murdered so I can enjoy my limited freedom.
> 
> This is life.
> 
> If we want freedom we have to accept that some people won't have that freedom, because they've "chosen" to not to have it. The woman has had many chances to get away, but she didn't, for whatever reasons.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Well that's the difference between you and I.   I don't stand for anyone who bullies a woman.  Our women are our queens and if we don't stand up for them then who will?
> 
> As men it's our job.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *I don't stand for people who bully women either. However what can I do?* Bullying is a fine line. If you ban bullying then people are going to be more repressed than if they were bullied.
> 
> I once worked in a restaurant/bar (the restaurant was illegal as I found out when the inspectors turned up in town and the restaurant disappeared for a while) and a big group of people came in. The wife of one went and ordered food. One of the orders was wrong, probably not the woman's fault. But her husband started verbally laying into her. I basically told him to stop it, his response was that this whole thing should stay in the family and they never came back again.
> 
> Did I tolerate? No I didn't.
> 
> Then again I went into a restaurant recently and a boy started hitting his grandmother quite hard. His mother did nothing about it, the father did nothing about it. What could I do? Nothing.
Click to expand...


It's a shame there is so much quoted here that your ridiculous statement gets missed.   

You don't stand for people who bully women .....    But you ask what can you do.....   

Here is what a man does....  He stands up and calls out this behavior and takes the criticism because it's the right thing to stand up against.    

Cowards make excuses While Men just  stand up.  

Part of being a man is having the character and courage to stand up for women everywhere.


----------



## StLucieBengal

skye said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can you imagine go swimming like that?
> 
> where is the joy? I mean why bother for Heaven's sake?
> 
> do they take showers at home like that too?
> 
> Mercy Lord!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jeebus.    There is absolutely nothing right with that picture.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> That's right.
> 
> It's called visual pollution...to say nothing of visual provocation.
Click to expand...



The female body is too beautiful to be shrouded in oppression.


----------



## cnm

Anathema said:


> As someone whose Number One priority when out in public is my and my wife's personal safety, I have to look at everyone and everything around us.


Wow. You must live in a barbarous society.


----------



## cnm

num_nut said:


> Yawn. Thats all.....


Never a truer word written.


----------



## cnm

StLucieBengal said:


> there is a standard of how you dress at the beach. The standard is not cover up everything except your eye balls .


Conform or else in the land of the free.


----------



## StLucieBengal

cnm said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> And before you talk about how liberating it is for women to wear what they wish.... There is zero way that a wearing a Burkini is liberating for any woman..... It would be a strange woman who thinks wearing a Burkini is a great option.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, who the fuck are you to determine other people's opinions?
Click to expand...


Apparently I am part of the courageous group on here that is willing to stand up for women.


----------



## cnm

StLucieBengal said:


> Well that's the difference between you and I. I don't stand for anyone who bullies a woman. Our women are our queens and if we don't stand up for them then who will?


Hillarity?

The Dixie Chicks?


----------



## cnm

StLucieBengal said:


> The female body is too beautiful to be shrouded in oppression.


Ffs.


----------



## skye

Don't they have beaches in the Arabian Peninsula? or thereabouts ...in Islamic territories?

do they have to go and pollute the Western world with their Sharia Law??

enough is enough me thinks!


----------



## frigidweirdo

StLucieBengal said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Surely it's fine if Muslims where what they want. Isn't that freedom?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So we are ok if all husbands tell their wives what they can and can not wear?
> 
> This is an issue where religion and social acceptance comes cross.
> 
> You didn't seem to care about religious freedom when it came to the wedding baker and the gay cake.
> 
> According to that its been set that we favour societal norms over religious freedom.     So are we going back to religious freedom now?    Or are we telling the religious people to get over it and evolve?   Just like we did the bakers.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, I'm okay with husbands telling their wives what to wear. It happens all the time. An ex of mine, her uncle was color blind almost totally, couldn't tell the difference between almost any color, saw perhaps two colors. His wife told him what to wear.
> 
> In an ideal world relationships would be based on equality, love, trust, all of that stuff, but so many aren't. In Islam, in Christianity, in nothing, there are people who will dominate others.
> 
> I don't like Islam, I don't like any religion, and the fact that men use it as a way of keeping women down makes me angry. However sometimes you have to accept what you don't like.
> 
> If I can do everything I want, it's anarchy, which means murder is okay, which means I can be murdered. I don't like this. So.... I prefer a limited amount of freedom where murder is wrong and I don't get murdered so I can enjoy my limited freedom.
> 
> This is life.
> 
> If we want freedom we have to accept that some people won't have that freedom, because they've "chosen" to not to have it. The woman has had many chances to get away, but she didn't, for whatever reasons.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Well that's the difference between you and I.   I don't stand for anyone who bullies a woman.  Our women are our queens and if we don't stand up for them then who will?
> 
> As men it's our job.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *I don't stand for people who bully women either. However what can I do?* Bullying is a fine line. If you ban bullying then people are going to be more repressed than if they were bullied.
> 
> I once worked in a restaurant/bar (the restaurant was illegal as I found out when the inspectors turned up in town and the restaurant disappeared for a while) and a big group of people came in. The wife of one went and ordered food. One of the orders was wrong, probably not the woman's fault. But her husband started verbally laying into her. I basically told him to stop it, his response was that this whole thing should stay in the family and they never came back again.
> 
> Did I tolerate? No I didn't.
> 
> Then again I went into a restaurant recently and a boy started hitting his grandmother quite hard. His mother did nothing about it, the father did nothing about it. What could I do? Nothing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's a shame there is so much quoted here that your ridiculous statement gets missed.
> 
> You don't stand for people who bully women .....    But you ask what can you do.....
> 
> Here is what a man does....  He stands up and calls out this behavior and takes the criticism because it's the right thing to stand up against.
> 
> Cowards make excuses While Men just  stand up.
> 
> Part of being a man is having the character and courage to stand up for women everywhere.
Click to expand...


Then you come across another man who is bigger than you, more aggressive than you, has a gun, is mental, whatever. Then what? 

However I was asking the "what can you do?" more in reference to making laws to stop such action.


----------



## idb

They should be forced to wear bikinis!

_Crystal Huyben, 27, a born-again Christian from Ontario, likes to cover everything from her knees to her collarbone when she gets in the water. 

“Modesty has always been important to me, believing that our sexuality is an amazing gift from God,” she said. “[It’s] something to be protected, not put on display for all eyes to see.” 

Huyben, who sewed her first modest swimsuit when she was a teenager, now runs a company, Simply Modest, selling the garments. Her website Simply Modest is one of about a dozen, all launched over the past decade, marketing suits that protect their wearers from sun, chlorine and lustful stares. 

Now, Huyben and other modest swimwear entrepreneurs are finding that their suits are catching on with a secular audience. Tulin Reid, 38, a former plus size model, is a fan of HydroChic, a line of modest- and activewear founded six years ago by two modern Orthodox Jewish women, Sara Wolf and Daniella Teutsch, in New York’s Westchester county.
'Modest' Swimwear No Longer Just For The Pious, As Niche Entrepreneurs Dive In_


----------



## idb

skye said:


> Don't they have beaches in the Arabian Peninsula? or thereabouts ...in Islamic territories?
> 
> do they have to go and pollute the Western world with their Sharia Law??
> 
> enough is enough me thinks!


If someone wants to go the beach fully clothed...should they be required to get a permit?


----------



## skye

idb said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't they have beaches in the Arabian Peninsula? or thereabouts ...in Islamic territories?
> 
> do they have to go and pollute the Western world with their Sharia Law??
> 
> enough is enough me thinks!
> 
> 
> 
> If someone wants to go the beach fully clothed...should they be required to get a permit?
Click to expand...


No....if the person is not a Sharia Law Islamist.

Fuck Islamic terrorists.


----------



## StLucieBengal

cnm said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> there is a standard of how you dress at the beach. The standard is not cover up everything except your eye balls .
> 
> 
> 
> Conform or else in the land of the free.
Click to expand...




frigidweirdo said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> So we are ok if all husbands tell their wives what they can and can not wear?
> 
> This is an issue where religion and social acceptance comes cross.
> 
> You didn't seem to care about religious freedom when it came to the wedding baker and the gay cake.
> 
> According to that its been set that we favour societal norms over religious freedom.     So are we going back to religious freedom now?    Or are we telling the religious people to get over it and evolve?   Just like we did the bakers.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I'm okay with husbands telling their wives what to wear. It happens all the time. An ex of mine, her uncle was color blind almost totally, couldn't tell the difference between almost any color, saw perhaps two colors. His wife told him what to wear.
> 
> In an ideal world relationships would be based on equality, love, trust, all of that stuff, but so many aren't. In Islam, in Christianity, in nothing, there are people who will dominate others.
> 
> I don't like Islam, I don't like any religion, and the fact that men use it as a way of keeping women down makes me angry. However sometimes you have to accept what you don't like.
> 
> If I can do everything I want, it's anarchy, which means murder is okay, which means I can be murdered. I don't like this. So.... I prefer a limited amount of freedom where murder is wrong and I don't get murdered so I can enjoy my limited freedom.
> 
> This is life.
> 
> If we want freedom we have to accept that some people won't have that freedom, because they've "chosen" to not to have it. The woman has had many chances to get away, but she didn't, for whatever reasons.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Well that's the difference between you and I.   I don't stand for anyone who bullies a woman.  Our women are our queens and if we don't stand up for them then who will?
> 
> As men it's our job.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *I don't stand for people who bully women either. However what can I do?* Bullying is a fine line. If you ban bullying then people are going to be more repressed than if they were bullied.
> 
> I once worked in a restaurant/bar (the restaurant was illegal as I found out when the inspectors turned up in town and the restaurant disappeared for a while) and a big group of people came in. The wife of one went and ordered food. One of the orders was wrong, probably not the woman's fault. But her husband started verbally laying into her. I basically told him to stop it, his response was that this whole thing should stay in the family and they never came back again.
> 
> Did I tolerate? No I didn't.
> 
> Then again I went into a restaurant recently and a boy started hitting his grandmother quite hard. His mother did nothing about it, the father did nothing about it. What could I do? Nothing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's a shame there is so much quoted here that your ridiculous statement gets missed.
> 
> You don't stand for people who bully women .....    But you ask what can you do.....
> 
> Here is what a man does....  He stands up and calls out this behavior and takes the criticism because it's the right thing to stand up against.
> 
> Cowards make excuses While Men just  stand up.
> 
> Part of being a man is having the character and courage to stand up for women everywhere.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then you come across another man who is bigger than you, more aggressive than you, has a gun, is mental, whatever. Then what?
> 
> However I was asking the "what can you do?" more in reference to making laws to stop such action.
Click to expand...


I guess That's the difference between you and I ....    I stand up for what's right all the time.     

That's ok.   You can't help the type of man that you have become.  Maybe your wife or husband will have enough balls for you.


----------



## idb

skye said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't they have beaches in the Arabian Peninsula? or thereabouts ...in Islamic territories?
> 
> do they have to go and pollute the Western world with their Sharia Law??
> 
> enough is enough me thinks!
> 
> 
> 
> If someone wants to go the beach fully clothed...should they be required to get a permit?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No....if the person is not a Sharia Law Islamist.
> 
> Fuck Islamic terrorists.
Click to expand...

How can you tell?
Do you need a permit to say that you don't require a permit?


----------



## StLucieBengal

idb said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't they have beaches in the Arabian Peninsula? or thereabouts ...in Islamic territories?
> 
> do they have to go and pollute the Western world with their Sharia Law??
> 
> enough is enough me thinks!
> 
> 
> 
> If someone wants to go the beach fully clothed...should they be required to get a permit?
Click to expand...


Public beaches have standards.     It's a hygienic risk to be fully clothed.


----------



## skye

idb said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't they have beaches in the Arabian Peninsula? or thereabouts ...in Islamic territories?
> 
> do they have to go and pollute the Western world with their Sharia Law??
> 
> enough is enough me thinks!
> 
> 
> 
> If someone wants to go the beach fully clothed...should they be required to get a permit?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No....if the person is not a Sharia Law Islamist.
> 
> Fuck Islamic terrorists.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How can you tell?
> Do you need a permit to say that you don't require a permit?
Click to expand...



yep


----------



## idb

StLucieBengal said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't they have beaches in the Arabian Peninsula? or thereabouts ...in Islamic territories?
> 
> do they have to go and pollute the Western world with their Sharia Law??
> 
> enough is enough me thinks!
> 
> 
> 
> If someone wants to go the beach fully clothed...should they be required to get a permit?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Public beaches have standards.     It's a hygienic risk to be fully clothed.
Click to expand...

?


----------



## skye

...and why these sharia law people are going to the beach anyway?

it's not in the Koran.

STOP POLLUTING FRENCH BEACHES YOU SCUM!


----------



## Alex.




----------



## idb

skye said:


> ...and why these sharia law people are going to the beach anyway?
> 
> it's not in the Koran.
> 
> STOP POLLUTING FRENCH BEACHES YOU SCUM!


How do you know they support Sharia Law?


----------



## skye

Alex. said:


>




Fucking clowns!   ^^^^


----------



## Alex.

skye said:


> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fucking clowns!   ^^^^
Click to expand...

Ya think?


----------



## frigidweirdo

StLucieBengal said:


> cnm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> there is a standard of how you dress at the beach. The standard is not cover up everything except your eye balls .
> 
> 
> 
> Conform or else in the land of the free.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I'm okay with husbands telling their wives what to wear. It happens all the time. An ex of mine, her uncle was color blind almost totally, couldn't tell the difference between almost any color, saw perhaps two colors. His wife told him what to wear.
> 
> In an ideal world relationships would be based on equality, love, trust, all of that stuff, but so many aren't. In Islam, in Christianity, in nothing, there are people who will dominate others.
> 
> I don't like Islam, I don't like any religion, and the fact that men use it as a way of keeping women down makes me angry. However sometimes you have to accept what you don't like.
> 
> If I can do everything I want, it's anarchy, which means murder is okay, which means I can be murdered. I don't like this. So.... I prefer a limited amount of freedom where murder is wrong and I don't get murdered so I can enjoy my limited freedom.
> 
> This is life.
> 
> If we want freedom we have to accept that some people won't have that freedom, because they've "chosen" to not to have it. The woman has had many chances to get away, but she didn't, for whatever reasons.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Well that's the difference between you and I.   I don't stand for anyone who bullies a woman.  Our women are our queens and if we don't stand up for them then who will?
> 
> As men it's our job.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *I don't stand for people who bully women either. However what can I do?* Bullying is a fine line. If you ban bullying then people are going to be more repressed than if they were bullied.
> 
> I once worked in a restaurant/bar (the restaurant was illegal as I found out when the inspectors turned up in town and the restaurant disappeared for a while) and a big group of people came in. The wife of one went and ordered food. One of the orders was wrong, probably not the woman's fault. But her husband started verbally laying into her. I basically told him to stop it, his response was that this whole thing should stay in the family and they never came back again.
> 
> Did I tolerate? No I didn't.
> 
> Then again I went into a restaurant recently and a boy started hitting his grandmother quite hard. His mother did nothing about it, the father did nothing about it. What could I do? Nothing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's a shame there is so much quoted here that your ridiculous statement gets missed.
> 
> You don't stand for people who bully women .....    But you ask what can you do.....
> 
> Here is what a man does....  He stands up and calls out this behavior and takes the criticism because it's the right thing to stand up against.
> 
> Cowards make excuses While Men just  stand up.
> 
> Part of being a man is having the character and courage to stand up for women everywhere.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then you come across another man who is bigger than you, more aggressive than you, has a gun, is mental, whatever. Then what?
> 
> However I was asking the "what can you do?" more in reference to making laws to stop such action.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I guess That's the difference between you and I ....    I stand up for what's right all the time.
> 
> That's ok.   You can't help the type of man that you have become.  Maybe your wife or husband will have enough balls for you.
Click to expand...


No, the difference between you and me is that I can come onto a forum like this and be sensible and not make stuff up about other people.


----------



## StLucieBengal

frigidweirdo said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cnm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> there is a standard of how you dress at the beach. The standard is not cover up everything except your eye balls .
> 
> 
> 
> Conform or else in the land of the free.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well that's the difference between you and I.   I don't stand for anyone who bullies a woman.  Our women are our queens and if we don't stand up for them then who will?
> 
> As men it's our job.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *I don't stand for people who bully women either. However what can I do?* Bullying is a fine line. If you ban bullying then people are going to be more repressed than if they were bullied.
> 
> I once worked in a restaurant/bar (the restaurant was illegal as I found out when the inspectors turned up in town and the restaurant disappeared for a while) and a big group of people came in. The wife of one went and ordered food. One of the orders was wrong, probably not the woman's fault. But her husband started verbally laying into her. I basically told him to stop it, his response was that this whole thing should stay in the family and they never came back again.
> 
> Did I tolerate? No I didn't.
> 
> Then again I went into a restaurant recently and a boy started hitting his grandmother quite hard. His mother did nothing about it, the father did nothing about it. What could I do? Nothing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's a shame there is so much quoted here that your ridiculous statement gets missed.
> 
> You don't stand for people who bully women .....    But you ask what can you do.....
> 
> Here is what a man does....  He stands up and calls out this behavior and takes the criticism because it's the right thing to stand up against.
> 
> Cowards make excuses While Men just  stand up.
> 
> Part of being a man is having the character and courage to stand up for women everywhere.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then you come across another man who is bigger than you, more aggressive than you, has a gun, is mental, whatever. Then what?
> 
> However I was asking the "what can you do?" more in reference to making laws to stop such action.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I guess That's the difference between you and I ....    I stand up for what's right all the time.
> 
> That's ok.   You can't help the type of man that you have become.  Maybe your wife or husband will have enough balls for you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, the difference between you and me is that I can come onto a forum like this and be sensible and not make stuff up about other people.
Click to expand...


Hey don't blame me.   I just call them as I see them.    It's not my fault you made excuses why you don't stand up for women.    

Some men are men of action and some are not.....  Fortunately there are women who want a meager man.   Or men in case you are into dudes.


----------



## cnm

idb said:


> ?


He has a right to be a rightard lunatic.


----------



## cnm

StLucieBengal said:


> Some men are men of action and some are not.....


Fair enough, Lucie.


----------



## StLucieBengal

Katie Hopkins: Why I Back The Ban On Burkinis

*Katie Hopkins: Why I Back The Ban On Burkinis*


Saturday 27th August 2016

*Whatever your stance on the burkini ban, Katie Hopkins' strident take on it will spark a reaction in you. *

Speaking after France's highest court suspended the ban on the full-body swimsuits worn by Muslim women at the beach, Katie was insistent it was a good idea.

Her reason why? The morning after the horrific attack on Nice.

"Try thinking about that picture of that little teddy bear on the ground next to a body covered over with a sheet.

"Try thinking about the guy behind that wheel, swerving left and right in a monster truck to run people over.

"And then think why this ban might be in place.

"Just a temporary ban against a uniform that identifies with a religion associated with extremist acts. I support the ban."

The LBC presenter continued: "If you don't like it, don't go to the beach!

"What joy is there being on a beach with only your eyeballs being on display?"

The issue has been championed by some feminists who say it's emancipating for women to be able to cover themselves up.

Katie took aim at them too: "You cannot tell me that wearing a burkini is liberating for women.

"Boy oh boy, it's going to be a strange woman that thinks a burkini is a good option!"



*Comments*


----------



## gtopa1

StLucieBengal said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's not a good thing to go onto the beach in that weather with just a bikini either, you can get skin cancer.
> 
> Lots of things are stupid. Go to Malaysia and they're dipping in the sea in their clothes.
> 
> Just because you're used to something, doesn't mean others are. In Victorian England people wouldn't have gone in a skimpy bikini. They'd have been mostly covered up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or covered up and their nipples showing off....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If Muslims want to wear the bathing suit in that bottom photo then that's fine.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Surely it's fine if Muslims where what they want. Isn't that freedom?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So we are ok if all husbands tell their wives what they can and can not wear?
> 
> This is an issue where religion and social acceptance comes cross.
> 
> You didn't seem to care about religious freedom when it came to the wedding baker and the gay cake.
> 
> According to that its been set that we favour societal norms over religious freedom.     So are we going back to religious freedom now?    Or are we telling the religious people to get over it and evolve?   Just like we did the bakers.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, I'm okay with husbands telling their wives what to wear. It happens all the time. An ex of mine, her uncle was color blind almost totally, couldn't tell the difference between almost any color, saw perhaps two colors. His wife told him what to wear.
> 
> In an ideal world relationships would be based on equality, love, trust, all of that stuff, but so many aren't. In Islam, in Christianity, in nothing, there are people who will dominate others.
> 
> I don't like Islam, I don't like any religion, and the fact that men use it as a way of keeping women down makes me angry. However sometimes you have to accept what you don't like.
> 
> If I can do everything I want, it's anarchy, which means murder is okay, which means I can be murdered. I don't like this. So.... I prefer a limited amount of freedom where murder is wrong and I don't get murdered so I can enjoy my limited freedom.
> 
> This is life.
> 
> If we want freedom we have to accept that some people won't have that freedom, because they've "chosen" to not to have it. The woman has had many chances to get away, but she didn't, for whatever reasons.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Well that's the difference between you and I.   I don't stand for anyone who bullies a woman.  Our women are our queens and if we don't stand up for them then who will?
> 
> As men it's our job.
Click to expand...


Mate I've got SIX daughters...blended family. As a minority I know my place.

Greg


----------



## gtopa1

StLucieBengal said:


> Katie Hopkins: Why I Back The Ban On Burkinis
> 
> *Katie Hopkins: Why I Back The Ban On Burkinis*
> 
> 
> Saturday 27th August 2016
> 
> *Whatever your stance on the burkini ban, Katie Hopkins' strident take on it will spark a reaction in you. *
> 
> Speaking after France's highest court suspended the ban on the full-body swimsuits worn by Muslim women at the beach, Katie was insistent it was a good idea.
> 
> Her reason why? The morning after the horrific attack on Nice.
> 
> "Try thinking about that picture of that little teddy bear on the ground next to a body covered over with a sheet.
> 
> "Try thinking about the guy behind that wheel, swerving left and right in a monster truck to run people over.
> 
> "And then think why this ban might be in place.
> 
> "Just a temporary ban against a uniform that identifies with a religion associated with extremist acts. I support the ban."
> 
> The LBC presenter continued: "If you don't like it, don't go to the beach!
> 
> "What joy is there being on a beach with only your eyeballs being on display?"
> 
> The issue has been championed by some feminists who say it's emancipating for women to be able to cover themselves up.
> 
> Katie took aim at them too: "You cannot tell me that wearing a burkini is liberating for women.
> 
> "Boy oh boy, it's going to be a strange woman that thinks a burkini is a good option!"
> 
> 
> 
> *Comments*



No: I will NOT think of that in relation to a swimsuit. It's emotive tosh. 

Greg


----------



## gtopa1

skye said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't they have beaches in the Arabian Peninsula? or thereabouts ...in Islamic territories?
> 
> do they have to go and pollute the Western world with their Sharia Law??
> 
> enough is enough me thinks!
> 
> 
> 
> If someone wants to go the beach fully clothed...should they be required to get a permit?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No....if the person is not a Sharia Law Islamist.
> 
> Fuck Islamic terrorists.
Click to expand...


Islamic terrorists wear burkinis?? Mixing it up a bit methinks.

Greg


----------



## gtopa1

skye said:


> ...and why these sharia law people are going to the beach anyway?
> 
> it's not in the Koran.
> 
> STOP POLLUTING FRENCH BEACHES YOU SCUM!



That comment is offensive!!! 

Greg


----------



## idb

cnm said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> ?
> 
> 
> 
> He has a right to be a rightard lunatic.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't want to deny him his rights...unless he acts that way on a beach.


----------



## Anathema

cnm said:


> Wow. You must live in a barbarous society.



All society is barbarous these days. Bereft of moral and values as well. I don't trust anyone.


----------



## Dogmaphobe

1860's plantation owner - -"Just look at all thems happy little house slaves all content with their lot. Some of 'em even think of themselves as part of our family.  Now, why would we want to take away this system that gives them so much security, huh?"

2016 hip and modern "progressive" -- "Just look at all thems happy little Muslim women all covered from head to toe so they don't get beat up or raped. Some of 'em even claim this is their choice. Now, why would we want to go and do something so awful as to take away this system that gives them so much security, huh?


 The more things change, the more they stay the same.


----------



## Tilly

Interesting. Feel sorry for the police.

France
*French mayors refuse to lift burkini ban despite court ruling*

A *majority of mayors who have banned burkinis in about 30 French coastal resorts are refusing to lift the restrictions despite the country’s highest administrative court ruling that the bans are illegal, leaving the state facing a dilemma about how to react.*

More than 20 mayors have defiantly kept in place decrees under which municipal police can stop and fine any women in full-body swimsuits at the beach despite the ruling from the state council that the burkini bans are a “serious and manifestly illegal violation of fundamental freedoms”....

*Only two mayors lifted their bans in the wake of the Villeneuve-Loubet ruling: *the Socialist mayor of Oye-Plages near Calais and the centrist mayor of Eze in the Alpes-Maritimes. Mayors from the rightwing Les Républicains party and from the far-right Front National are keeping their bans in place, insisting that the Villeneuve-Loubet case does not apply to them...

The Socialist prime minister, Manuel Valls, who had caused divisions in his party by supporting the mayors’ bans, insisted that the political debate on burkinis must continue. In a written statement on Facebook, he said *the burkini was “the affirmation of political Islam in the public space”....*
*
The short-term burkini bans, which began to be issued by mayors at the end of July, have sparked a heated political row about the French principle of laïcité – secularism built on the strict separation of church and state – amid accusations by rights groups that politicians are twisting and distorting the principle for political gain, and using it to deliberately target Muslims following a series of terrorist attacks...

French mayors refuse to lift burkini ban despite court ruling*


----------



## StLucieBengal

Good for those mayors.    They have to stand up for the protection of their cities

They are only temporary bans anyway.  

The courts shouldn't even have been involved.


----------



## Coyote

Some people seem to think that removing woman's choice on what to wear swimming is freeing her from "oppression".

Allowing her choice = oppression
Forcing her to wear a revealing swim suit = freedom

If a woman chooses to be a homemaker, is she oppressed?
If she is banned from being a homemaker and forced to work...is she free?


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## Coyote

StLucieBengal said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't they have beaches in the Arabian Peninsula? or thereabouts ...in Islamic territories?
> 
> do they have to go and pollute the Western world with their Sharia Law??
> 
> enough is enough me thinks!
> 
> 
> 
> If someone wants to go the beach fully clothed...should they be required to get a permit?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Public beaches have standards.     It's a hygienic risk to be fully clothed.
Click to expand...


Not exactly, this is swimwear...and, frankly I've gone swimming in shorts and a tank top.  And less.  Lots less.  Beaches are outdoors, I doubt there are hygiene standards - the water is full of stuff anyway.  You might be thinking of swimming pools.


----------



## StLucieBengal

Coyote said:


> Some people seem to think that removing woman's choice on what to wear swimming is freeing her from "oppression".
> 
> Allowing her choice = oppression
> Forcing her to wear a revealing swim suit = freedom
> 
> If a woman chooses to be a homemaker, is she oppressed?
> If she is banned from being a homemaker and forced to work...is she free?



When a battered woman chooses to stay with her abuser is she oppressed?   

You are comparing apples to oranges


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## idb

StLucieBengal said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some people seem to think that removing woman's choice on what to wear swimming is freeing her from "oppression".
> 
> Allowing her choice = oppression
> Forcing her to wear a revealing swim suit = freedom
> 
> If a woman chooses to be a homemaker, is she oppressed?
> If she is banned from being a homemaker and forced to work...is she free?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When a battered woman chooses to stay with her abuser is she oppressed?
> 
> You are comparing apples to oranges
Click to expand...

Why, in your world, can't a woman choose to cover up at the beach?


----------



## StLucieBengal

Muslim women are best compared to another group of women who are oppressed and forced into a lifestyle by years of mental and physical beat downs.    

They are most closely compared with battered women.    Last I checked we do not just co-sign A battered woman's choice to go back to her abuser.      Why are we co-signing the Muslim woman's abuse?


----------



## StLucieBengal

idb said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some people seem to think that removing woman's choice on what to wear swimming is freeing her from "oppression".
> 
> Allowing her choice = oppression
> Forcing her to wear a revealing swim suit = freedom
> 
> If a woman chooses to be a homemaker, is she oppressed?
> If she is banned from being a homemaker and forced to work...is she free?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When a battered woman chooses to stay with her abuser is she oppressed?
> 
> You are comparing apples to oranges
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why, in your world, can't a woman choose to cover up at the beach?
Click to expand...


Is it a choice when you are compelled at the threat of mental or physical violence?


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## StLucieBengal

Coyote said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't they have beaches in the Arabian Peninsula? or thereabouts ...in Islamic territories?
> 
> do they have to go and pollute the Western world with their Sharia Law??
> 
> enough is enough me thinks!
> 
> 
> 
> If someone wants to go the beach fully clothed...should they be required to get a permit?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Public beaches have standards.     It's a hygienic risk to be fully clothed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not exactly, this is swimwear...and, frankly I've gone swimming in shorts and a tank top.  And less.  Lots less.  Beaches are outdoors, I doubt there are hygiene standards - the water is full of stuff anyway.  You might be thinking of swimming pools.
Click to expand...


Our beaches right here have standards of dress.


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## idb

StLucieBengal said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some people seem to think that removing woman's choice on what to wear swimming is freeing her from "oppression".
> 
> Allowing her choice = oppression
> Forcing her to wear a revealing swim suit = freedom
> 
> If a woman chooses to be a homemaker, is she oppressed?
> If she is banned from being a homemaker and forced to work...is she free?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When a battered woman chooses to stay with her abuser is she oppressed?
> 
> You are comparing apples to oranges
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why, in your world, can't a woman choose to cover up at the beach?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Is it a choice when you are compelled at the threat of mental or physical violence?
Click to expand...

Of course not.
How do you know that a woman, lying on the beach, who is covered up has been forced to wear that clothing?


----------



## idb

StLucieBengal said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't they have beaches in the Arabian Peninsula? or thereabouts ...in Islamic territories?
> 
> do they have to go and pollute the Western world with their Sharia Law??
> 
> enough is enough me thinks!
> 
> 
> 
> If someone wants to go the beach fully clothed...should they be required to get a permit?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Public beaches have standards.     It's a hygienic risk to be fully clothed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not exactly, this is swimwear...and, frankly I've gone swimming in shorts and a tank top.  And less.  Lots less.  Beaches are outdoors, I doubt there are hygiene standards - the water is full of stuff anyway.  You might be thinking of swimming pools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Our beaches right here have standards of dress.
Click to expand...

Do women have to wear revealing swimming costumes on your beaches...or are they allowed to wear covering clothing?


----------



## StLucieBengal

idb said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some people seem to think that removing woman's choice on what to wear swimming is freeing her from "oppression".
> 
> Allowing her choice = oppression
> Forcing her to wear a revealing swim suit = freedom
> 
> If a woman chooses to be a homemaker, is she oppressed?
> If she is banned from being a homemaker and forced to work...is she free?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When a battered woman chooses to stay with her abuser is she oppressed?
> 
> You are comparing apples to oranges
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why, in your world, can't a woman choose to cover up at the beach?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Is it a choice when you are compelled at the threat of mental or physical violence?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Of course not.
> How do you know that a woman, lying on the beach, who is covered up has been forced to wear that clothing?
Click to expand...


Because no woman goes to the beach to expose only her eyeballs in 95 degree heat.


----------



## StLucieBengal

idb said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't they have beaches in the Arabian Peninsula? or thereabouts ...in Islamic territories?
> 
> do they have to go and pollute the Western world with their Sharia Law??
> 
> enough is enough me thinks!
> 
> 
> 
> If someone wants to go the beach fully clothed...should they be required to get a permit?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Public beaches have standards.     It's a hygienic risk to be fully clothed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not exactly, this is swimwear...and, frankly I've gone swimming in shorts and a tank top.  And less.  Lots less.  Beaches are outdoors, I doubt there are hygiene standards - the water is full of stuff anyway.  You might be thinking of swimming pools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Our beaches right here have standards of dress.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Do women have to wear revealing swimming costumes on your beaches...or are they allowed to wear covering clothing?
Click to expand...


Why is it always either a string bikini or a burqa?      

There are a wide variety of acceptable swimwear.   

Case in point....  My wife wears a scarf in church but seems to be able to manage at the beach by just not wearing it there.


----------



## idb

StLucieBengal said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some people seem to think that removing woman's choice on what to wear swimming is freeing her from "oppression".
> 
> Allowing her choice = oppression
> Forcing her to wear a revealing swim suit = freedom
> 
> If a woman chooses to be a homemaker, is she oppressed?
> If she is banned from being a homemaker and forced to work...is she free?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When a battered woman chooses to stay with her abuser is she oppressed?
> 
> You are comparing apples to oranges
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why, in your world, can't a woman choose to cover up at the beach?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Is it a choice when you are compelled at the threat of mental or physical violence?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Of course not.
> How do you know that a woman, lying on the beach, who is covered up has been forced to wear that clothing?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because no woman goes to the beach to expose only her eyeballs in 95 degree heat.
Click to expand...

Ok...you decide for her.
Fair enough...there's no way a woman could have enough free will to make that decision for herself.


----------



## StLucieBengal

idb said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> When a battered woman chooses to stay with her abuser is she oppressed?
> 
> You are comparing apples to oranges
> 
> 
> 
> Why, in your world, can't a woman choose to cover up at the beach?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Is it a choice when you are compelled at the threat of mental or physical violence?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Of course not.
> How do you know that a woman, lying on the beach, who is covered up has been forced to wear that clothing?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because no woman goes to the beach to expose only her eyeballs in 95 degree heat.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ok...you decide for her.
> Fair enough...there's no way a woman could have enough free will to make that decision for herself.
Click to expand...



So you have no problems when the victims of DV return home to their abusers?     

You don't consider the years of mental punishment they have experienced that is clouding their judgement?


----------



## skye

gtopa1 said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...and why these sharia law people are going to the beach anyway?
> 
> it's not in the Koran.
> 
> STOP POLLUTING FRENCH BEACHES YOU SCUM!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That comment is offensive!!!
> 
> Greg
Click to expand...



More offensive is that these unwanted hordes come over to the West and try to change our culture when they know we hate it and we know that if we go over there and wear a bikini they might throw us in jail and deport us!

What is also offensive and stupid is, how many naive Westerners are so quick to call everything which makes sense, offensive!


----------



## StLucieBengal

Below is listed signs and abuser tricks related to domestic violence.    How many of these relate to normal Islam....  

We can easily trace every single one of these to the way Islam wants their women treated.    

I got these from this site.   Abuser tricks and warning signs of domestic abuse. - New Hope for Women

Jealousy
At the start of the relationship, an abuser will equate jealously with love. The abuser will question the victim about who the victim talks to, accuse the victim of flirting, or become jealous of time spent with others. The abuser may call the victim frequently during the day, drop by unexpectedly, refuse to let the victim work, check the car mileage, or ask friends to watch the victim.

Controlling behavior
In the beginning an abuser will attribute controlling behavior to concern for the victim (for example, the victim's safety or decision-making skills). As this behavior progresses the situation will worsen, and the abuser may assume all control of finances or prevent the victim from coming and going freely.

Quick involvement
A victim often has known or dated the abuser for a brief period of time before getting engaged or living together. The abuser will pressure the victim to commit to the relationship. A victim may be made to feel guilty for wanting to slow the pace or end the relationship.

Unrealistic expectations
An abuser expects the victim to meet all of the abuser's needs, to take care of everything emotionally and domestically.

Isolation
An abuser will attempt to isolate the victim by severing the victim's ties to outside support and resources. The batterer will accuse the victim's friends and family of being "trouble makers." The abuser may block the victim's access to use of a vehicle, work, or telephone service in the home.

Blames others for problems
An abuser will blame others for all problems or for the abuser's own shortcomings. Someone is always out to get the abuser or is an obstacle to the abuser's achievements. The victim or potential victim will be blamed for almost anything.

Blames others for feelings
An abuser will use feelings to manipulate the victim. Common phrases to look for: "You're hurting me by not doing what I want." "You control how I feel."

Hypersensitivity
An abusive person is easily insulted, perceiving the slightest setbacks as personal attacks.

Cruelty to animals or children
This is a person who punishes animals brutally or is insensitive to their pain. The abuser may expect children to perform beyond their capability (for example whipping a two-year-old for wetting a diaper or teasing children or siblings until they cry).

"Playful" use of force in sex
This behavior includes restraining partners against their will during sex, acting out fantasies in which the partner is helpless, initiating sex when the partner is asleep, or demanding sex when the partner is ill or tired. The abuser may show little concern for his partner's wishes and will use sulking and anger to manipulate compliance.

Verbal abuse
This behavior involves saying things that are intended to be cruel and hurtful, cursing or degrading the victim, or putting down the victim's accomplishments.

Rigid sex roles
The victim, almost always a woman, will be expected to serve. For instance, a male abuser will see women as inferior to men, responsible for menial tasks, stupid, and unable to be a whole person without a relationship.

Dual personality "Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde"
Explosive behavior and moodiness, which can shift quickly to congeniality, are typical of people who beat their partners.

Past battering
An abuser will beat any partner if the individual is involved with the abuser long enough for the cycle of abuse to begin. Circumstances do not make a person an abusive personality.

Threats of violence
This consists of any threat of physical force meant to control the partner. Most people do not threaten their mates but an abuser will excuse this behavior by claiming "everyone talks like that."

Breaking or striking objects
This behavior is used as punishment (breaking sentimental possessions) or to terrorize the victim into submission.

Any force during an argument
This may involve an abuser holding down his the victim, physically restraining the victim from leaving, or pushing or shoving. Holding someoneback in order to make demands, such as "You will listen to me!" is also a show of force.


----------



## idb

StLucieBengal said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why, in your world, can't a woman choose to cover up at the beach?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is it a choice when you are compelled at the threat of mental or physical violence?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Of course not.
> How do you know that a woman, lying on the beach, who is covered up has been forced to wear that clothing?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because no woman goes to the beach to expose only her eyeballs in 95 degree heat.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ok...you decide for her.
> Fair enough...there's no way a woman could have enough free will to make that decision for herself.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> So you have no problems when the victims of DV return home to their abusers?
> 
> You don't consider the years of mental punishment they have experienced that is clouding their judgement?
Click to expand...

Wow!
All I'm advocating is for a woman to be allowed to make her own choice as to what she wears to the beach!


----------



## StLucieBengal

idb said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is it a choice when you are compelled at the threat of mental or physical violence?
> 
> 
> 
> Of course not.
> How do you know that a woman, lying on the beach, who is covered up has been forced to wear that clothing?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because no woman goes to the beach to expose only her eyeballs in 95 degree heat.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ok...you decide for her.
> Fair enough...there's no way a woman could have enough free will to make that decision for herself.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> So you have no problems when the victims of DV return home to their abusers?
> 
> You don't consider the years of mental punishment they have experienced that is clouding their judgement?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wow!
> All I'm advocating is for a woman to be allowed to make her own choice as to what she wears to the beach!
Click to expand...


There is no real choice when they have been brain washed for years.     Exactly like a victim of Domestic Violence


----------



## Tilly

Many women are forced to dress this way. The U.K., elsewhere in Europe, and ? US have had honour killing based on girls and young women dressing in a 'Western' way. Many girls are forced into the niqab / burqa etc from the age of 10 - 12. What choice do these women and girls have? We should not be aiding and abetting such outrageous misogyny and abuse.


----------



## idb

Tilly said:


> Many women are forced to dress this way. The U.K., elsewhere in Europe, and ? US have had honour killing based on girls and young women dressing in a 'Western' way. Many girls are forced into the burqa from the age of 10 - 12. What choice do these women and girls have? We should not be aiding and abetting such outrageous misogyny and abuse.


Exactly.


----------



## Coyote

StLucieBengal said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why, in your world, can't a woman choose to cover up at the beach?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is it a choice when you are compelled at the threat of mental or physical violence?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Of course not.
> How do you know that a woman, lying on the beach, who is covered up has been forced to wear that clothing?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because no woman goes to the beach to expose only her eyeballs in 95 degree heat.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ok...you decide for her.
> Fair enough...there's no way a woman could have enough free will to make that decision for herself.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> So you have no problems when the victims of DV return home to their abusers?
> 
> You don't consider the years of mental punishment they have experienced that is clouding their judgement?
Click to expand...


Why the assumption that all Muslim women are abused?  That's ridiculous.  Just for a bit of perspective....

Modest Swimwear - Custom sized, made to order swimsuits by CoverUpForChrist
Modest swimwear for ladies & girls | Aqua Modesta
Modest Swimwear for Girls, Teens & Women by Sea Secret

Are you going to ban all of these people from enjoying the beach?  Are they all abused?

Does anyone see how utterly ridiculous this is?  A supposedly free society is suddenly mandating what a woman can wear!  How is that for oppression?


----------



## Coyote

StLucieBengal said:


> Below is listed signs and abuser tricks related to domestic violence.    How many of these relate to normal Islam....
> 
> We can easily trace every single one of these to the way Islam wants their women treated.
> 
> I got these from this site.   Abuser tricks and warning signs of domestic abuse. - New Hope for Women
> 
> Jealousy
> At the start of the relationship, an abuser will equate jealously with love. The abuser will question the victim about who the victim talks to, accuse the victim of flirting, or become jealous of time spent with others. The abuser may call the victim frequently during the day, drop by unexpectedly, refuse to let the victim work, check the car mileage, or ask friends to watch the victim.
> 
> Controlling behavior
> In the beginning an abuser will attribute controlling behavior to concern for the victim (for example, the victim's safety or decision-making skills). As this behavior progresses the situation will worsen, and the abuser may assume all control of finances or prevent the victim from coming and going freely.
> 
> Quick involvement
> A victim often has known or dated the abuser for a brief period of time before getting engaged or living together. The abuser will pressure the victim to commit to the relationship. A victim may be made to feel guilty for wanting to slow the pace or end the relationship.
> 
> Unrealistic expectations
> An abuser expects the victim to meet all of the abuser's needs, to take care of everything emotionally and domestically.
> 
> Isolation
> An abuser will attempt to isolate the victim by severing the victim's ties to outside support and resources. The batterer will accuse the victim's friends and family of being "trouble makers." The abuser may block the victim's access to use of a vehicle, work, or telephone service in the home.
> 
> Blames others for problems
> An abuser will blame others for all problems or for the abuser's own shortcomings. Someone is always out to get the abuser or is an obstacle to the abuser's achievements. The victim or potential victim will be blamed for almost anything.
> 
> Blames others for feelings
> An abuser will use feelings to manipulate the victim. Common phrases to look for: "You're hurting me by not doing what I want." "You control how I feel."
> 
> Hypersensitivity
> An abusive person is easily insulted, perceiving the slightest setbacks as personal attacks.
> 
> Cruelty to animals or children
> This is a person who punishes animals brutally or is insensitive to their pain. The abuser may expect children to perform beyond their capability (for example whipping a two-year-old for wetting a diaper or teasing children or siblings until they cry).
> 
> "Playful" use of force in sex
> This behavior includes restraining partners against their will during sex, acting out fantasies in which the partner is helpless, initiating sex when the partner is asleep, or demanding sex when the partner is ill or tired. The abuser may show little concern for his partner's wishes and will use sulking and anger to manipulate compliance.
> 
> Verbal abuse
> This behavior involves saying things that are intended to be cruel and hurtful, cursing or degrading the victim, or putting down the victim's accomplishments.
> 
> Rigid sex roles
> The victim, almost always a woman, will be expected to serve. For instance, a male abuser will see women as inferior to men, responsible for menial tasks, stupid, and unable to be a whole person without a relationship.
> 
> Dual personality "Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde"
> Explosive behavior and moodiness, which can shift quickly to congeniality, are typical of people who beat their partners.
> 
> Past battering
> An abuser will beat any partner if the individual is involved with the abuser long enough for the cycle of abuse to begin. Circumstances do not make a person an abusive personality.
> 
> Threats of violence
> This consists of any threat of physical force meant to control the partner. Most people do not threaten their mates but an abuser will excuse this behavior by claiming "everyone talks like that."
> 
> Breaking or striking objects
> This behavior is used as punishment (breaking sentimental possessions) or to terrorize the victim into submission.
> 
> Any force during an argument
> This may involve an abuser holding down his the victim, physically restraining the victim from leaving, or pushing or shoving. Holding someoneback in order to make demands, such as "You will listen to me!" is also a show of force.




None of the above occur in "normal Islam" relationships.  There is a huge erroneous assumption being made based on the thought that all marriages involving "traditional" women's roles constitute abuse.

If a woman chooses to be a homemaker - is she abused?


----------



## Coyote

skye said:


> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...and why these sharia law people are going to the beach anyway?
> 
> it's not in the Koran.
> 
> STOP POLLUTING FRENCH BEACHES YOU SCUM!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That comment is offensive!!!
> 
> Greg
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> More offensive is that these unwanted hordes come over to the West and try to change our culture when they know we hate it and we know that if we go over there and wear a bikini they might throw us in jail and deport us!
> 
> What is also offensive and stupid is, how many naive Westerners are so quick to call everything which makes sense, offensive!
Click to expand...


Oh for god's sakes, they're just people Skye.  So WHAT if a woman wants to dress more modestly at the beach?  Who CARES if they throw you into jail in Saudi Arabia for wearing a bikini.  This isn't Saudi Arabia and maybe THAT is why those women are here and not THERE, trying to enjoy the beach.  Ever thought of that?


----------



## Coyote

skye said:


> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...and why these sharia law people are going to the beach anyway?
> 
> it's not in the Koran.
> 
> STOP POLLUTING FRENCH BEACHES YOU SCUM!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That comment is offensive!!!
> 
> Greg
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> More offensive is that these unwanted hordes come over to the West and try to change our culture when they know we hate it and we know that if we go over there and wear a bikini they might throw us in jail and deport us!
> 
> What is also offensive and stupid is, how many naive Westerners are so quick to call everything which makes sense, offensive!
Click to expand...


Oh for god's sakes, they're just people Skye.  So WHAT if a woman wants to dress more modestly at the beach?  Who CARES if they throw you into jail in Saudi Arabia for wearing a bikini.  This isn't Saudi Arabia and maybe THAT is why those women are here and not THERE, trying to enjoy the beach.  Ever thought of that?


----------



## StLucieBengal

Coyote said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is it a choice when you are compelled at the threat of mental or physical violence?
> 
> 
> 
> Of course not.
> How do you know that a woman, lying on the beach, who is covered up has been forced to wear that clothing?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because no woman goes to the beach to expose only her eyeballs in 95 degree heat.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ok...you decide for her.
> Fair enough...there's no way a woman could have enough free will to make that decision for herself.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> So you have no problems when the victims of DV return home to their abusers?
> 
> You don't consider the years of mental punishment they have experienced that is clouding their judgement?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why the assumption that all Muslim women are abused?  That's ridiculous.  Just for a bit of perspective....
> 
> Modest Swimwear - Custom sized, made to order swimsuits by CoverUpForChrist
> Modest swimwear for ladies & girls | Aqua Modesta
> Modest Swimwear for Girls, Teens & Women by Sea Secret
> 
> Are you going to ban all of these people from enjoying the beach?  Are they all abused?
> 
> Does anyone see how utterly ridiculous this is?  A supposedly free society is suddenly mandating what a woman can wear!  How is that for oppression?
Click to expand...



None of those you posted cover up their heads or below their knees.   

Which is a perfect example that there is conservative alternatives already on the market for the Muslims


----------



## StLucieBengal

Coyote said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> Below is listed signs and abuser tricks related to domestic violence.    How many of these relate to normal Islam....
> 
> We can easily trace every single one of these to the way Islam wants their women treated.
> 
> I got these from this site.   Abuser tricks and warning signs of domestic abuse. - New Hope for Women
> 
> Jealousy
> At the start of the relationship, an abuser will equate jealously with love. The abuser will question the victim about who the victim talks to, accuse the victim of flirting, or become jealous of time spent with others. The abuser may call the victim frequently during the day, drop by unexpectedly, refuse to let the victim work, check the car mileage, or ask friends to watch the victim.
> 
> Controlling behavior
> In the beginning an abuser will attribute controlling behavior to concern for the victim (for example, the victim's safety or decision-making skills). As this behavior progresses the situation will worsen, and the abuser may assume all control of finances or prevent the victim from coming and going freely.
> 
> Quick involvement
> A victim often has known or dated the abuser for a brief period of time before getting engaged or living together. The abuser will pressure the victim to commit to the relationship. A victim may be made to feel guilty for wanting to slow the pace or end the relationship.
> 
> Unrealistic expectations
> An abuser expects the victim to meet all of the abuser's needs, to take care of everything emotionally and domestically.
> 
> Isolation
> An abuser will attempt to isolate the victim by severing the victim's ties to outside support and resources. The batterer will accuse the victim's friends and family of being "trouble makers." The abuser may block the victim's access to use of a vehicle, work, or telephone service in the home.
> 
> Blames others for problems
> An abuser will blame others for all problems or for the abuser's own shortcomings. Someone is always out to get the abuser or is an obstacle to the abuser's achievements. The victim or potential victim will be blamed for almost anything.
> 
> Blames others for feelings
> An abuser will use feelings to manipulate the victim. Common phrases to look for: "You're hurting me by not doing what I want." "You control how I feel."
> 
> Hypersensitivity
> An abusive person is easily insulted, perceiving the slightest setbacks as personal attacks.
> 
> Cruelty to animals or children
> This is a person who punishes animals brutally or is insensitive to their pain. The abuser may expect children to perform beyond their capability (for example whipping a two-year-old for wetting a diaper or teasing children or siblings until they cry).
> 
> "Playful" use of force in sex
> This behavior includes restraining partners against their will during sex, acting out fantasies in which the partner is helpless, initiating sex when the partner is asleep, or demanding sex when the partner is ill or tired. The abuser may show little concern for his partner's wishes and will use sulking and anger to manipulate compliance.
> 
> Verbal abuse
> This behavior involves saying things that are intended to be cruel and hurtful, cursing or degrading the victim, or putting down the victim's accomplishments.
> 
> Rigid sex roles
> The victim, almost always a woman, will be expected to serve. For instance, a male abuser will see women as inferior to men, responsible for menial tasks, stupid, and unable to be a whole person without a relationship.
> 
> Dual personality "Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde"
> Explosive behavior and moodiness, which can shift quickly to congeniality, are typical of people who beat their partners.
> 
> Past battering
> An abuser will beat any partner if the individual is involved with the abuser long enough for the cycle of abuse to begin. Circumstances do not make a person an abusive personality.
> 
> Threats of violence
> This consists of any threat of physical force meant to control the partner. Most people do not threaten their mates but an abuser will excuse this behavior by claiming "everyone talks like that."
> 
> Breaking or striking objects
> This behavior is used as punishment (breaking sentimental possessions) or to terrorize the victim into submission.
> 
> Any force during an argument
> This may involve an abuser holding down his the victim, physically restraining the victim from leaving, or pushing or shoving. Holding someoneback in order to make demands, such as "You will listen to me!" is also a show of force.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> None of the above occur in "normal Islam" relationships.  There is a huge erroneous assumption being made based on the thought that all marriages involving "traditional" women's roles constitute abuse.
> 
> If a woman chooses to be a homemaker - is she abused?
Click to expand...



Don't confuse a westernized Muslim for one of the crazies.  Majority of the westernized ones don't force this nonsense on their women.   

Europe has a crazy Muslim problem.


----------



## idb

StLucieBengal said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> Below is listed signs and abuser tricks related to domestic violence.    How many of these relate to normal Islam....
> 
> We can easily trace every single one of these to the way Islam wants their women treated.
> 
> I got these from this site.   Abuser tricks and warning signs of domestic abuse. - New Hope for Women
> 
> Jealousy
> At the start of the relationship, an abuser will equate jealously with love. The abuser will question the victim about who the victim talks to, accuse the victim of flirting, or become jealous of time spent with others. The abuser may call the victim frequently during the day, drop by unexpectedly, refuse to let the victim work, check the car mileage, or ask friends to watch the victim.
> 
> Controlling behavior
> In the beginning an abuser will attribute controlling behavior to concern for the victim (for example, the victim's safety or decision-making skills). As this behavior progresses the situation will worsen, and the abuser may assume all control of finances or prevent the victim from coming and going freely.
> 
> Quick involvement
> A victim often has known or dated the abuser for a brief period of time before getting engaged or living together. The abuser will pressure the victim to commit to the relationship. A victim may be made to feel guilty for wanting to slow the pace or end the relationship.
> 
> Unrealistic expectations
> An abuser expects the victim to meet all of the abuser's needs, to take care of everything emotionally and domestically.
> 
> Isolation
> An abuser will attempt to isolate the victim by severing the victim's ties to outside support and resources. The batterer will accuse the victim's friends and family of being "trouble makers." The abuser may block the victim's access to use of a vehicle, work, or telephone service in the home.
> 
> Blames others for problems
> An abuser will blame others for all problems or for the abuser's own shortcomings. Someone is always out to get the abuser or is an obstacle to the abuser's achievements. The victim or potential victim will be blamed for almost anything.
> 
> Blames others for feelings
> An abuser will use feelings to manipulate the victim. Common phrases to look for: "You're hurting me by not doing what I want." "You control how I feel."
> 
> Hypersensitivity
> An abusive person is easily insulted, perceiving the slightest setbacks as personal attacks.
> 
> Cruelty to animals or children
> This is a person who punishes animals brutally or is insensitive to their pain. The abuser may expect children to perform beyond their capability (for example whipping a two-year-old for wetting a diaper or teasing children or siblings until they cry).
> 
> "Playful" use of force in sex
> This behavior includes restraining partners against their will during sex, acting out fantasies in which the partner is helpless, initiating sex when the partner is asleep, or demanding sex when the partner is ill or tired. The abuser may show little concern for his partner's wishes and will use sulking and anger to manipulate compliance.
> 
> Verbal abuse
> This behavior involves saying things that are intended to be cruel and hurtful, cursing or degrading the victim, or putting down the victim's accomplishments.
> 
> Rigid sex roles
> The victim, almost always a woman, will be expected to serve. For instance, a male abuser will see women as inferior to men, responsible for menial tasks, stupid, and unable to be a whole person without a relationship.
> 
> Dual personality "Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde"
> Explosive behavior and moodiness, which can shift quickly to congeniality, are typical of people who beat their partners.
> 
> Past battering
> An abuser will beat any partner if the individual is involved with the abuser long enough for the cycle of abuse to begin. Circumstances do not make a person an abusive personality.
> 
> Threats of violence
> This consists of any threat of physical force meant to control the partner. Most people do not threaten their mates but an abuser will excuse this behavior by claiming "everyone talks like that."
> 
> Breaking or striking objects
> This behavior is used as punishment (breaking sentimental possessions) or to terrorize the victim into submission.
> 
> Any force during an argument
> This may involve an abuser holding down his the victim, physically restraining the victim from leaving, or pushing or shoving. Holding someoneback in order to make demands, such as "You will listen to me!" is also a show of force.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> None of the above occur in "normal Islam" relationships.  There is a huge erroneous assumption being made based on the thought that all marriages involving "traditional" women's roles constitute abuse.
> 
> If a woman chooses to be a homemaker - is she abused?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Don't confuse a westernized Muslim for one of the crazies.  Majority of the westernized ones don't force this nonsense on their women.
> 
> Europe has a crazy Muslim problem.
Click to expand...

How do you identify the 'crazies' and chase them off the beach?


----------



## StLucieBengal

Coyote said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...and why these sharia law people are going to the beach anyway?
> 
> it's not in the Koran.
> 
> STOP POLLUTING FRENCH BEACHES YOU SCUM!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That comment is offensive!!!
> 
> Greg
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> More offensive is that these unwanted hordes come over to the West and try to change our culture when they know we hate it and we know that if we go over there and wear a bikini they might throw us in jail and deport us!
> 
> What is also offensive and stupid is, how many naive Westerners are so quick to call everything which makes sense, offensive!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh for god's sakes, they're just people Skye.  So WHAT if a woman wants to dress more modestly at the beach?  Who CARES if they throw you into jail in Saudi Arabia for wearing a bikini.  This isn't Saudi Arabia and maybe THAT is why those women are here and not THERE, trying to enjoy the beach.  Ever thought of that?
Click to expand...



They are bringing the Saudi Arabia lifestyle to the west.  That's the problem .   It wouldn't be a problem if they renounced their crazy behavior and went normal


----------



## idb

StLucieBengal said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> Of course not.
> How do you know that a woman, lying on the beach, who is covered up has been forced to wear that clothing?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because no woman goes to the beach to expose only her eyeballs in 95 degree heat.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ok...you decide for her.
> Fair enough...there's no way a woman could have enough free will to make that decision for herself.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> So you have no problems when the victims of DV return home to their abusers?
> 
> You don't consider the years of mental punishment they have experienced that is clouding their judgement?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why the assumption that all Muslim women are abused?  That's ridiculous.  Just for a bit of perspective....
> 
> Modest Swimwear - Custom sized, made to order swimsuits by CoverUpForChrist
> Modest swimwear for ladies & girls | Aqua Modesta
> Modest Swimwear for Girls, Teens & Women by Sea Secret
> 
> Are you going to ban all of these people from enjoying the beach?  Are they all abused?
> 
> Does anyone see how utterly ridiculous this is?  A supposedly free society is suddenly mandating what a woman can wear!  How is that for oppression?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> None of those you posted cover up their heads or below their knees.
> 
> Which is a perfect example that there is conservative alternatives already on the market for the Muslims
Click to expand...

Is that the criteria you'd use to kick women off the beach?
They mustn't cover their heads or lower legs?
Just trying to get a handle on the rules here.

Does it apply to men as well?


----------



## StLucieBengal

idb said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> Below is listed signs and abuser tricks related to domestic violence.    How many of these relate to normal Islam....
> 
> We can easily trace every single one of these to the way Islam wants their women treated.
> 
> I got these from this site.   Abuser tricks and warning signs of domestic abuse. - New Hope for Women
> 
> Jealousy
> At the start of the relationship, an abuser will equate jealously with love. The abuser will question the victim about who the victim talks to, accuse the victim of flirting, or become jealous of time spent with others. The abuser may call the victim frequently during the day, drop by unexpectedly, refuse to let the victim work, check the car mileage, or ask friends to watch the victim.
> 
> Controlling behavior
> In the beginning an abuser will attribute controlling behavior to concern for the victim (for example, the victim's safety or decision-making skills). As this behavior progresses the situation will worsen, and the abuser may assume all control of finances or prevent the victim from coming and going freely.
> 
> Quick involvement
> A victim often has known or dated the abuser for a brief period of time before getting engaged or living together. The abuser will pressure the victim to commit to the relationship. A victim may be made to feel guilty for wanting to slow the pace or end the relationship.
> 
> Unrealistic expectations
> An abuser expects the victim to meet all of the abuser's needs, to take care of everything emotionally and domestically.
> 
> Isolation
> An abuser will attempt to isolate the victim by severing the victim's ties to outside support and resources. The batterer will accuse the victim's friends and family of being "trouble makers." The abuser may block the victim's access to use of a vehicle, work, or telephone service in the home.
> 
> Blames others for problems
> An abuser will blame others for all problems or for the abuser's own shortcomings. Someone is always out to get the abuser or is an obstacle to the abuser's achievements. The victim or potential victim will be blamed for almost anything.
> 
> Blames others for feelings
> An abuser will use feelings to manipulate the victim. Common phrases to look for: "You're hurting me by not doing what I want." "You control how I feel."
> 
> Hypersensitivity
> An abusive person is easily insulted, perceiving the slightest setbacks as personal attacks.
> 
> Cruelty to animals or children
> This is a person who punishes animals brutally or is insensitive to their pain. The abuser may expect children to perform beyond their capability (for example whipping a two-year-old for wetting a diaper or teasing children or siblings until they cry).
> 
> "Playful" use of force in sex
> This behavior includes restraining partners against their will during sex, acting out fantasies in which the partner is helpless, initiating sex when the partner is asleep, or demanding sex when the partner is ill or tired. The abuser may show little concern for his partner's wishes and will use sulking and anger to manipulate compliance.
> 
> Verbal abuse
> This behavior involves saying things that are intended to be cruel and hurtful, cursing or degrading the victim, or putting down the victim's accomplishments.
> 
> Rigid sex roles
> The victim, almost always a woman, will be expected to serve. For instance, a male abuser will see women as inferior to men, responsible for menial tasks, stupid, and unable to be a whole person without a relationship.
> 
> Dual personality "Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde"
> Explosive behavior and moodiness, which can shift quickly to congeniality, are typical of people who beat their partners.
> 
> Past battering
> An abuser will beat any partner if the individual is involved with the abuser long enough for the cycle of abuse to begin. Circumstances do not make a person an abusive personality.
> 
> Threats of violence
> This consists of any threat of physical force meant to control the partner. Most people do not threaten their mates but an abuser will excuse this behavior by claiming "everyone talks like that."
> 
> Breaking or striking objects
> This behavior is used as punishment (breaking sentimental possessions) or to terrorize the victim into submission.
> 
> Any force during an argument
> This may involve an abuser holding down his the victim, physically restraining the victim from leaving, or pushing or shoving. Holding someoneback in order to make demands, such as "You will listen to me!" is also a show of force.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> None of the above occur in "normal Islam" relationships.  There is a huge erroneous assumption being made based on the thought that all marriages involving "traditional" women's roles constitute abuse.
> 
> If a woman chooses to be a homemaker - is she abused?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Don't confuse a westernized Muslim for one of the crazies.  Majority of the westernized ones don't force this nonsense on their women.
> 
> Europe has a crazy Muslim problem.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How do you identify the 'crazies' and chase them off the beach?
Click to expand...


The ones oppressing their women


----------



## idb

StLucieBengal said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> Below is listed signs and abuser tricks related to domestic violence.    How many of these relate to normal Islam....
> 
> We can easily trace every single one of these to the way Islam wants their women treated.
> 
> I got these from this site.   Abuser tricks and warning signs of domestic abuse. - New Hope for Women
> 
> Jealousy
> At the start of the relationship, an abuser will equate jealously with love. The abuser will question the victim about who the victim talks to, accuse the victim of flirting, or become jealous of time spent with others. The abuser may call the victim frequently during the day, drop by unexpectedly, refuse to let the victim work, check the car mileage, or ask friends to watch the victim.
> 
> Controlling behavior
> In the beginning an abuser will attribute controlling behavior to concern for the victim (for example, the victim's safety or decision-making skills). As this behavior progresses the situation will worsen, and the abuser may assume all control of finances or prevent the victim from coming and going freely.
> 
> Quick involvement
> A victim often has known or dated the abuser for a brief period of time before getting engaged or living together. The abuser will pressure the victim to commit to the relationship. A victim may be made to feel guilty for wanting to slow the pace or end the relationship.
> 
> Unrealistic expectations
> An abuser expects the victim to meet all of the abuser's needs, to take care of everything emotionally and domestically.
> 
> Isolation
> An abuser will attempt to isolate the victim by severing the victim's ties to outside support and resources. The batterer will accuse the victim's friends and family of being "trouble makers." The abuser may block the victim's access to use of a vehicle, work, or telephone service in the home.
> 
> Blames others for problems
> An abuser will blame others for all problems or for the abuser's own shortcomings. Someone is always out to get the abuser or is an obstacle to the abuser's achievements. The victim or potential victim will be blamed for almost anything.
> 
> Blames others for feelings
> An abuser will use feelings to manipulate the victim. Common phrases to look for: "You're hurting me by not doing what I want." "You control how I feel."
> 
> Hypersensitivity
> An abusive person is easily insulted, perceiving the slightest setbacks as personal attacks.
> 
> Cruelty to animals or children
> This is a person who punishes animals brutally or is insensitive to their pain. The abuser may expect children to perform beyond their capability (for example whipping a two-year-old for wetting a diaper or teasing children or siblings until they cry).
> 
> "Playful" use of force in sex
> This behavior includes restraining partners against their will during sex, acting out fantasies in which the partner is helpless, initiating sex when the partner is asleep, or demanding sex when the partner is ill or tired. The abuser may show little concern for his partner's wishes and will use sulking and anger to manipulate compliance.
> 
> Verbal abuse
> This behavior involves saying things that are intended to be cruel and hurtful, cursing or degrading the victim, or putting down the victim's accomplishments.
> 
> Rigid sex roles
> The victim, almost always a woman, will be expected to serve. For instance, a male abuser will see women as inferior to men, responsible for menial tasks, stupid, and unable to be a whole person without a relationship.
> 
> Dual personality "Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde"
> Explosive behavior and moodiness, which can shift quickly to congeniality, are typical of people who beat their partners.
> 
> Past battering
> An abuser will beat any partner if the individual is involved with the abuser long enough for the cycle of abuse to begin. Circumstances do not make a person an abusive personality.
> 
> Threats of violence
> This consists of any threat of physical force meant to control the partner. Most people do not threaten their mates but an abuser will excuse this behavior by claiming "everyone talks like that."
> 
> Breaking or striking objects
> This behavior is used as punishment (breaking sentimental possessions) or to terrorize the victim into submission.
> 
> Any force during an argument
> This may involve an abuser holding down his the victim, physically restraining the victim from leaving, or pushing or shoving. Holding someoneback in order to make demands, such as "You will listen to me!" is also a show of force.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> None of the above occur in "normal Islam" relationships.  There is a huge erroneous assumption being made based on the thought that all marriages involving "traditional" women's roles constitute abuse.
> 
> If a woman chooses to be a homemaker - is she abused?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Don't confuse a westernized Muslim for one of the crazies.  Majority of the westernized ones don't force this nonsense on their women.
> 
> Europe has a crazy Muslim problem.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How do you identify the 'crazies' and chase them off the beach?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The ones oppressing their women
Click to expand...

Was the woman in the photos being made to remove her clothing in France oppressed?


----------



## Coyote

StLucieBengal said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...and why these sharia law people are going to the beach anyway?
> 
> it's not in the Koran.
> 
> STOP POLLUTING FRENCH BEACHES YOU SCUM!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That comment is offensive!!!
> 
> Greg
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> More offensive is that these unwanted hordes come over to the West and try to change our culture when they know we hate it and we know that if we go over there and wear a bikini they might throw us in jail and deport us!
> 
> What is also offensive and stupid is, how many naive Westerners are so quick to call everything which makes sense, offensive!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh for god's sakes, they're just people Skye.  So WHAT if a woman wants to dress more modestly at the beach?  Who CARES if they throw you into jail in Saudi Arabia for wearing a bikini.  This isn't Saudi Arabia and maybe THAT is why those women are here and not THERE, trying to enjoy the beach.  Ever thought of that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> They are bringing the Saudi Arabia lifestyle to the west.  That's the problem .   It wouldn't be a problem if they renounced their crazy behavior and went normal
Click to expand...


1.  Are they forcing others to dress that way?

2.  Isn't forcing women to wear certain clothing "crazy behavior" yet you are calling it "normal"?


----------



## StLucieBengal

idb said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> Because no woman goes to the beach to expose only her eyeballs in 95 degree heat.
> 
> 
> 
> Ok...you decide for her.
> Fair enough...there's no way a woman could have enough free will to make that decision for herself.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> So you have no problems when the victims of DV return home to their abusers?
> 
> You don't consider the years of mental punishment they have experienced that is clouding their judgement?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why the assumption that all Muslim women are abused?  That's ridiculous.  Just for a bit of perspective....
> 
> Modest Swimwear - Custom sized, made to order swimsuits by CoverUpForChrist
> Modest swimwear for ladies & girls | Aqua Modesta
> Modest Swimwear for Girls, Teens & Women by Sea Secret
> 
> Are you going to ban all of these people from enjoying the beach?  Are they all abused?
> 
> Does anyone see how utterly ridiculous this is?  A supposedly free society is suddenly mandating what a woman can wear!  How is that for oppression?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> None of those you posted cover up their heads or below their knees.
> 
> Which is a perfect example that there is conservative alternatives already on the market for the Muslims
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Is that the criteria you'd use to kick women off the beach?
> They mustn't cover their heads or lower legs?
> Just trying to get a handle on the rules here.
> 
> Does it apply to men as well?
Click to expand...


Its interesting that you are so hell bent on making sure these women can be forced to be covered head to toe. 

I would rather we dial it back to normal western standards and if they decide to go modest then there are plenty of options.


----------



## idb

StLucieBengal said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok...you decide for her.
> Fair enough...there's no way a woman could have enough free will to make that decision for herself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you have no problems when the victims of DV return home to their abusers?
> 
> You don't consider the years of mental punishment they have experienced that is clouding their judgement?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why the assumption that all Muslim women are abused?  That's ridiculous.  Just for a bit of perspective....
> 
> Modest Swimwear - Custom sized, made to order swimsuits by CoverUpForChrist
> Modest swimwear for ladies & girls | Aqua Modesta
> Modest Swimwear for Girls, Teens & Women by Sea Secret
> 
> Are you going to ban all of these people from enjoying the beach?  Are they all abused?
> 
> Does anyone see how utterly ridiculous this is?  A supposedly free society is suddenly mandating what a woman can wear!  How is that for oppression?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> None of those you posted cover up their heads or below their knees.
> 
> Which is a perfect example that there is conservative alternatives already on the market for the Muslims
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Is that the criteria you'd use to kick women off the beach?
> They mustn't cover their heads or lower legs?
> Just trying to get a handle on the rules here.
> 
> Does it apply to men as well?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Its interesting that you are so hell bent on making sure these women can be forced to be covered head to toe.
> 
> I would rather we dial it back to normal western standards and if they decide to go modest then there are plenty of options.
Click to expand...

No, I disagree with you telling them that the must dress a certain way.
They should be able to dress any way they like...why do you want to oppress them?


----------



## skye

Coyote said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...and why these sharia law people are going to the beach anyway?
> 
> it's not in the Koran.
> 
> STOP POLLUTING FRENCH BEACHES YOU SCUM!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That comment is offensive!!!
> 
> Greg
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> More offensive is that these unwanted hordes come over to the West and try to change our culture when they know we hate it and we know that if we go over there and wear a bikini they might throw us in jail and deport us!
> 
> What is also offensive and stupid is, how many naive Westerners are so quick to call everything which makes sense, offensive!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh for god's sakes, they're just people Skye.  So WHAT if a woman wants to dress more modestly at the beach?  Who CARES if they throw you into jail in Saudi Arabia for wearing a bikini.  This isn't Saudi Arabia and maybe THAT is why those women are here and not THERE, trying to enjoy the beach.  Ever thought of that?
Click to expand...



You miss the point.

The reason these women dress "modestly" as you call it, is because their religion ordains it.

Whether you like it or not, we are at war with fundamental Islam, and we don't want to be constantly reminded of these facts by their powerful symbols of their brutal 7th century religion.


----------



## Coyote

StLucieBengal said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> Of course not.
> How do you know that a woman, lying on the beach, who is covered up has been forced to wear that clothing?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because no woman goes to the beach to expose only her eyeballs in 95 degree heat.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ok...you decide for her.
> Fair enough...there's no way a woman could have enough free will to make that decision for herself.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> So you have no problems when the victims of DV return home to their abusers?
> 
> You don't consider the years of mental punishment they have experienced that is clouding their judgement?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why the assumption that all Muslim women are abused?  That's ridiculous.  Just for a bit of perspective....
> 
> Modest Swimwear - Custom sized, made to order swimsuits by CoverUpForChrist
> Modest swimwear for ladies & girls | Aqua Modesta
> Modest Swimwear for Girls, Teens & Women by Sea Secret
> 
> Are you going to ban all of these people from enjoying the beach?  Are they all abused?
> 
> Does anyone see how utterly ridiculous this is?  A supposedly free society is suddenly mandating what a woman can wear!  How is that for oppression?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> None of those you posted cover up their heads or below their knees.
> 
> Which is a perfect example that there is conservative alternatives already on the market for the Muslims
Click to expand...


Ok, you are now adjusting the goalposts.

Covering to the knees is "ok", covering below the knees is not.

So, the poor Jewish girl on the right will get kicked off the beach...





We seem to have this rather arbritrary standard in which to only isolate Muslim women from comfortably swimming, but it looks like that standard will sadly affect other religious groups unless you move the goal posts some more.

Instead of the Saudi Arabian "Modesty Police" we'll have the western style "Imodesty Police".  Wouldn't it simply be easier to allow women free choice....that's all we've ever wanted


----------



## Coyote

skye said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...and why these sharia law people are going to the beach anyway?
> 
> it's not in the Koran.
> 
> STOP POLLUTING FRENCH BEACHES YOU SCUM!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That comment is offensive!!!
> 
> Greg
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> More offensive is that these unwanted hordes come over to the West and try to change our culture when they know we hate it and we know that if we go over there and wear a bikini they might throw us in jail and deport us!
> 
> What is also offensive and stupid is, how many naive Westerners are so quick to call everything which makes sense, offensive!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh for god's sakes, they're just people Skye.  So WHAT if a woman wants to dress more modestly at the beach?  Who CARES if they throw you into jail in Saudi Arabia for wearing a bikini.  This isn't Saudi Arabia and maybe THAT is why those women are here and not THERE, trying to enjoy the beach.  Ever thought of that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You miss the point.
> 
> The reason these women dress "modestly" as you call it, is because their religion ordains it.
> 
> Whether you like it or not, we are at war with fundamental Islam, and we don't want to be constantly reminded of these facts by their powerful symbols of their brutal 7th century religion.
Click to expand...


Religions "ordain" many things.  Is the fact that Orthodox Jewish women keep their bodies and hair covered a "powerful symbol of their brutal 7th century religion" (though, it's much older than that)...or...is it free choice?

I'm sorry you do not like seeing women exercising their freedom of choice in a supposedly free western country.


----------



## Coyote

StLucieBengal said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...and why these sharia law people are going to the beach anyway?
> 
> it's not in the Koran.
> 
> STOP POLLUTING FRENCH BEACHES YOU SCUM!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That comment is offensive!!!
> 
> Greg
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> More offensive is that these unwanted hordes come over to the West and try to change our culture when they know we hate it and we know that if we go over there and wear a bikini they might throw us in jail and deport us!
> 
> What is also offensive and stupid is, how many naive Westerners are so quick to call everything which makes sense, offensive!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh for god's sakes, they're just people Skye.  So WHAT if a woman wants to dress more modestly at the beach?  Who CARES if they throw you into jail in Saudi Arabia for wearing a bikini.  This isn't Saudi Arabia and maybe THAT is why those women are here and not THERE, trying to enjoy the beach.  Ever thought of that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> They are bringing the Saudi Arabia lifestyle to the west.  That's the problem .   It wouldn't be a problem if they renounced their crazy behavior and went normal
Click to expand...


Just have to add.  Normal IS NOT thongs and speedos when your belly dunlops the speedo and the thong disappears into...enough said.

That's crazy behavior...no?


----------



## skye

Coyote said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...and why these sharia law people are going to the beach anyway?
> 
> it's not in the Koran.
> 
> STOP POLLUTING FRENCH BEACHES YOU SCUM!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That comment is offensive!!!
> 
> Greg
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> More offensive is that these unwanted hordes come over to the West and try to change our culture when they know we hate it and we know that if we go over there and wear a bikini they might throw us in jail and deport us!
> 
> What is also offensive and stupid is, how many naive Westerners are so quick to call everything which makes sense, offensive!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh for god's sakes, they're just people Skye.  So WHAT if a woman wants to dress more modestly at the beach?  Who CARES if they throw you into jail in Saudi Arabia for wearing a bikini.  This isn't Saudi Arabia and maybe THAT is why those women are here and not THERE, trying to enjoy the beach.  Ever thought of that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You miss the point.
> 
> The reason these women dress "modestly" as you call it, is because their religion ordains it.
> 
> Whether you like it or not, we are at war with fundamental Islam, and we don't want to be constantly reminded of these facts by their powerful symbols of their brutal 7th century religion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Religions "ordain" many things.  Is the fact that Orthodox Jewish women keep their bodies and hair covered a "powerful symbol of their brutal 7th century religion" (though, it's much older than that)...or...is it free choice?
> 
> I'm sorry you do not like seeing women exercising their freedom of choice in a supposedly free western country.
Click to expand...




How can you possibly compare Judaism to Islam?

Since when are we at war with Judaism?

As mentioned fundamental  Islam is the  religion   that ordains jihad against the non believers by any means which at the moment means terrorism.

 So why should we   and the French  people not be upset when these Islamic symbols  are constantly being forced upon us.

It's got nothing to do at all with women's freedom of choice. It all about NOT SUBMITTING TO ISLAM.

It's quite surprising that feminists don't acknowledge how brutally women are treated in Islam.

 We are not discussing feminist rights but about trying to stop the spread of this alien culture whose purpose is to take over the host country like a virus.


----------



## Alex.

skye said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> That comment is offensive!!!
> 
> Greg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More offensive is that these unwanted hordes come over to the West and try to change our culture when they know we hate it and we know that if we go over there and wear a bikini they might throw us in jail and deport us!
> 
> What is also offensive and stupid is, how many naive Westerners are so quick to call everything which makes sense, offensive!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh for god's sakes, they're just people Skye.  So WHAT if a woman wants to dress more modestly at the beach?  Who CARES if they throw you into jail in Saudi Arabia for wearing a bikini.  This isn't Saudi Arabia and maybe THAT is why those women are here and not THERE, trying to enjoy the beach.  Ever thought of that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You miss the point.
> 
> The reason these women dress "modestly" as you call it, is because their religion ordains it.
> 
> Whether you like it or not, we are at war with fundamental Islam, and we don't want to be constantly reminded of these facts by their powerful symbols of their brutal 7th century religion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Religions "ordain" many things.  Is the fact that Orthodox Jewish women keep their bodies and hair covered a "powerful symbol of their brutal 7th century religion" (though, it's much older than that)...or...is it free choice?
> 
> I'm sorry you do not like seeing women exercising their freedom of choice in a supposedly free western country.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How can you possibly compare Judaism to Islam?
> 
> Since when are we at war with Judaism?
> 
> As mentioned fundamental  Islam is the  religion   that ordains jihad against the non believers by any means which at the moment means terrorism.
> 
> So why should we   and the French  people not be upset when these Islamic symbols  are constantly being forced upon us.
> 
> It's got nothing to do at all with women's freedom of choice. It all about NOT SUBMITTING TO ISLAM.
> 
> It's quite surprising that feminists don't acknowledge how brutally women are treated in Islam.
> 
> We are not discussing feminist rights but about trying to stop the spread of this alien culture whose purpose is to take over the host country like a virus.
Click to expand...


This:_*" trying to stop the spread of this alien culture whose purpose is to take over the host country like a virus."
*_
It is refreshing to see that you did not get fooled by those who bleed PC into everything they think of.


----------



## Coyote

skye said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> That comment is offensive!!!
> 
> Greg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More offensive is that these unwanted hordes come over to the West and try to change our culture when they know we hate it and we know that if we go over there and wear a bikini they might throw us in jail and deport us!
> 
> What is also offensive and stupid is, how many naive Westerners are so quick to call everything which makes sense, offensive!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh for god's sakes, they're just people Skye.  So WHAT if a woman wants to dress more modestly at the beach?  Who CARES if they throw you into jail in Saudi Arabia for wearing a bikini.  This isn't Saudi Arabia and maybe THAT is why those women are here and not THERE, trying to enjoy the beach.  Ever thought of that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You miss the point.
> 
> The reason these women dress "modestly" as you call it, is because their religion ordains it.
> 
> Whether you like it or not, we are at war with fundamental Islam, and we don't want to be constantly reminded of these facts by their powerful symbols of their brutal 7th century religion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Religions "ordain" many things.  Is the fact that Orthodox Jewish women keep their bodies and hair covered a "powerful symbol of their brutal 7th century religion" (though, it's much older than that)...or...is it free choice?
> 
> I'm sorry you do not like seeing women exercising their freedom of choice in a supposedly free western country.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How can you possibly compare Judaism to Islam?
Click to expand...


Easy.  They're both religions.  Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow.  In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles.  Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.



> Since when are we at war with Judaism?



Since when are we at war with Islam?  Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.



> As mentioned fundamental  Islam is the  religion   that ordains jihad against the non believers by any means which at the moment means terrorism.



Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.



> So why should we   and the French  people not be upset when these Islamic symbols  are constantly being forced upon us.



Who forced you to wear a burkini?



> It's got nothing to do at all with women's freedom of choice. It all about NOT SUBMITTING TO ISLAM.



So...let's get this straight.  You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?



> It's quite surprising that feminists don't acknowledge how brutally women are treated in Islam.



Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.



> We are not discussing feminist rights but about trying to stop the spread of this alien culture whose purpose is to take over the host country like a virus.



So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?

Geez.  So much for freedom.


----------



## Coyote

It's interesting to note another scent entering the fray....the "in your face" argument.  It's the same argument you hear about gays.  In other words, it's bad enough we have muslim citizens but we don't want to KNOW they are Muslims...because if we know it, it's in our face.


----------



## Alex.

Coyote said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> More offensive is that these unwanted hordes come over to the West and try to change our culture when they know we hate it and we know that if we go over there and wear a bikini they might throw us in jail and deport us!
> 
> What is also offensive and stupid is, how many naive Westerners are so quick to call everything which makes sense, offensive!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh for god's sakes, they're just people Skye.  So WHAT if a woman wants to dress more modestly at the beach?  Who CARES if they throw you into jail in Saudi Arabia for wearing a bikini.  This isn't Saudi Arabia and maybe THAT is why those women are here and not THERE, trying to enjoy the beach.  Ever thought of that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You miss the point.
> 
> The reason these women dress "modestly" as you call it, is because their religion ordains it.
> 
> Whether you like it or not, we are at war with fundamental Islam, and we don't want to be constantly reminded of these facts by their powerful symbols of their brutal 7th century religion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Religions "ordain" many things.  Is the fact that Orthodox Jewish women keep their bodies and hair covered a "powerful symbol of their brutal 7th century religion" (though, it's much older than that)...or...is it free choice?
> 
> I'm sorry you do not like seeing women exercising their freedom of choice in a supposedly free western country.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How can you possibly compare Judaism to Islam?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Easy.  They're both religions.  Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow.  In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles.  Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Judaism?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Islam?  Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As mentioned fundamental  Islam is the  religion   that ordains jihad against the non believers by any means which at the moment means terrorism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So why should we   and the French  people not be upset when these Islamic symbols  are constantly being forced upon us.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who forced you to wear a burkini?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's got nothing to do at all with women's freedom of choice. It all about NOT SUBMITTING TO ISLAM.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...let's get this straight.  You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's quite surprising that feminists don't acknowledge how brutally women are treated in Islam.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are not discussing feminist rights but about trying to stop the spread of this alien culture whose purpose is to take over the host country like a virus.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?
> 
> Geez.  So much for freedom.
Click to expand...

There is only one religion who is trying to annihilate everyone who does not believe in their God or attempts to force their religious laws down the throats of the society they choose to enter.

That is the difference.


----------



## Coyote

Alex. said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh for god's sakes, they're just people Skye.  So WHAT if a woman wants to dress more modestly at the beach?  Who CARES if they throw you into jail in Saudi Arabia for wearing a bikini.  This isn't Saudi Arabia and maybe THAT is why those women are here and not THERE, trying to enjoy the beach.  Ever thought of that?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You miss the point.
> 
> The reason these women dress "modestly" as you call it, is because their religion ordains it.
> 
> Whether you like it or not, we are at war with fundamental Islam, and we don't want to be constantly reminded of these facts by their powerful symbols of their brutal 7th century religion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Religions "ordain" many things.  Is the fact that Orthodox Jewish women keep their bodies and hair covered a "powerful symbol of their brutal 7th century religion" (though, it's much older than that)...or...is it free choice?
> 
> I'm sorry you do not like seeing women exercising their freedom of choice in a supposedly free western country.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How can you possibly compare Judaism to Islam?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Easy.  They're both religions.  Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow.  In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles.  Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Judaism?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Islam?  Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As mentioned fundamental  Islam is the  religion   that ordains jihad against the non believers by any means which at the moment means terrorism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So why should we   and the French  people not be upset when these Islamic symbols  are constantly being forced upon us.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who forced you to wear a burkini?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's got nothing to do at all with women's freedom of choice. It all about NOT SUBMITTING TO ISLAM.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...let's get this straight.  You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's quite surprising that feminists don't acknowledge how brutally women are treated in Islam.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are not discussing feminist rights but about trying to stop the spread of this alien culture whose purpose is to take over the host country like a virus.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?
> 
> Geez.  So much for freedom.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There is only one religion who is trying to annihilate everyone who does not believe in their God or attempts to force their religious laws down the throats of the society they choose to enter.
> 
> That is the difference.
Click to expand...


Unfortunately that is not accurate.  But keep trying.

And while you're at it, enlighten us as to why it's somehow progressive to remove free choice from women.


----------



## Alex.

Coyote said:


> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> You miss the point.
> 
> The reason these women dress "modestly" as you call it, is because their religion ordains it.
> 
> Whether you like it or not, we are at war with fundamental Islam, and we don't want to be constantly reminded of these facts by their powerful symbols of their brutal 7th century religion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Religions "ordain" many things.  Is the fact that Orthodox Jewish women keep their bodies and hair covered a "powerful symbol of their brutal 7th century religion" (though, it's much older than that)...or...is it free choice?
> 
> I'm sorry you do not like seeing women exercising their freedom of choice in a supposedly free western country.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How can you possibly compare Judaism to Islam?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Easy.  They're both religions.  Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow.  In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles.  Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Judaism?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Islam?  Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As mentioned fundamental  Islam is the  religion   that ordains jihad against the non believers by any means which at the moment means terrorism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So why should we   and the French  people not be upset when these Islamic symbols  are constantly being forced upon us.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who forced you to wear a burkini?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's got nothing to do at all with women's freedom of choice. It all about NOT SUBMITTING TO ISLAM.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...let's get this straight.  You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's quite surprising that feminists don't acknowledge how brutally women are treated in Islam.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are not discussing feminist rights but about trying to stop the spread of this alien culture whose purpose is to take over the host country like a virus.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?
> 
> Geez.  So much for freedom.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There is only one religion who is trying to annihilate everyone who does not believe in their God or attempts to force their religious laws down the throats of the society they choose to enter.
> 
> That is the difference.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Unfortunately that is not accurate.  But keep trying.
> 
> And while you're at it, enlighten us as to why it's somehow progressive to remove free choice from women.
Click to expand...

Right....more like a nightmare.


----------



## Coyote

Alex. said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Religions "ordain" many things.  Is the fact that Orthodox Jewish women keep their bodies and hair covered a "powerful symbol of their brutal 7th century religion" (though, it's much older than that)...or...is it free choice?
> 
> I'm sorry you do not like seeing women exercising their freedom of choice in a supposedly free western country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How can you possibly compare Judaism to Islam?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Easy.  They're both religions.  Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow.  In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles.  Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Judaism?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Islam?  Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As mentioned fundamental  Islam is the  religion   that ordains jihad against the non believers by any means which at the moment means terrorism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So why should we   and the French  people not be upset when these Islamic symbols  are constantly being forced upon us.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who forced you to wear a burkini?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's got nothing to do at all with women's freedom of choice. It all about NOT SUBMITTING TO ISLAM.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...let's get this straight.  You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's quite surprising that feminists don't acknowledge how brutally women are treated in Islam.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are not discussing feminist rights but about trying to stop the spread of this alien culture whose purpose is to take over the host country like a virus.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?
> 
> Geez.  So much for freedom.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There is only one religion who is trying to annihilate everyone who does not believe in their God or attempts to force their religious laws down the throats of the society they choose to enter.
> 
> That is the difference.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Unfortunately that is not accurate.  But keep trying.
> 
> And while you're at it, enlighten us as to why it's somehow progressive to remove free choice from women.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Right....more like a nightmare.
Click to expand...



Oh yes, bring on the 9/11 imagery (as if it's the fault of all the world's Muslims and not a bunch of terrorists) - your use of it in this way cheapens the tragedy.

In the meantime, enlighten us as to why it's somehow progressive to remove free choice from women.


----------



## Alex.

Coyote said:


> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> How can you possibly compare Judaism to Islam?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Easy.  They're both religions.  Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow.  In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles.  Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Judaism?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Islam?  Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As mentioned fundamental  Islam is the  religion   that ordains jihad against the non believers by any means which at the moment means terrorism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So why should we   and the French  people not be upset when these Islamic symbols  are constantly being forced upon us.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who forced you to wear a burkini?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's got nothing to do at all with women's freedom of choice. It all about NOT SUBMITTING TO ISLAM.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...let's get this straight.  You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's quite surprising that feminists don't acknowledge how brutally women are treated in Islam.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are not discussing feminist rights but about trying to stop the spread of this alien culture whose purpose is to take over the host country like a virus.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?
> 
> Geez.  So much for freedom.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There is only one religion who is trying to annihilate everyone who does not believe in their God or attempts to force their religious laws down the throats of the society they choose to enter.
> 
> That is the difference.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Unfortunately that is not accurate.  But keep trying.
> 
> And while you're at it, enlighten us as to why it's somehow progressive to remove free choice from women.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Right....more like a nightmare.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Oh yes, bring on the 9/11 imagery (as if it's the fault of all the world's Muslims and not a bunch of terrorists) - your use of it in this way cheapens the tragedy.
> 
> In the meantime, enlighten us as to why it's somehow progressive to remove free choice from women.
Click to expand...

Your inability to grasp the actual threat and harm it has caused world wide cheapens both the religion your protect the the unfortunate victims who lost their lives.


----------



## Coyote

Alex. said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Easy.  They're both religions.  Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow.  In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles.  Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.
> 
> Since when are we at war with Islam?  Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.
> 
> Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.
> 
> Who forced you to wear a burkini?
> 
> So...let's get this straight.  You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?
> 
> Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.
> 
> So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?
> 
> Geez.  So much for freedom.
> 
> 
> 
> There is only one religion who is trying to annihilate everyone who does not believe in their God or attempts to force their religious laws down the throats of the society they choose to enter.
> 
> That is the difference.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Unfortunately that is not accurate.  But keep trying.
> 
> And while you're at it, enlighten us as to why it's somehow progressive to remove free choice from women.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Right....more like a nightmare.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Oh yes, bring on the 9/11 imagery (as if it's the fault of all the world's Muslims and not a bunch of terrorists) - your use of it in this way cheapens the tragedy.
> 
> In the meantime, enlighten us as to why it's somehow progressive to remove free choice from women.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Your inability to grasp the actual threat and harm it has caused world wide cheapens both the religion your protect the the unfortunate victims who lost their lives.
Click to expand...


 Threat and harm Islam has caused or the actions of extremists?  Seriously dude - don't use 9/11 imagery as a cheap means to score hate points.

So allowing women free choice in what they want to wear to the beach causes threat and harm worldwide?

A nuclear burkini?


----------



## Alex.

Coyote said:


> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is only one religion who is trying to annihilate everyone who does not believe in their God or attempts to force their religious laws down the throats of the society they choose to enter.
> 
> That is the difference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately that is not accurate.  But keep trying.
> 
> And while you're at it, enlighten us as to why it's somehow progressive to remove free choice from women.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Right....more like a nightmare.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Oh yes, bring on the 9/11 imagery (as if it's the fault of all the world's Muslims and not a bunch of terrorists) - your use of it in this way cheapens the tragedy.
> 
> In the meantime, enlighten us as to why it's somehow progressive to remove free choice from women.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Your inability to grasp the actual threat and harm it has caused world wide cheapens both the religion your protect the the unfortunate victims who lost their lives.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Threat and harm Islam has caused or the actions of extremists?  Seriously dude - don't use 9/11 imagery as a cheap means to score hate points.
> 
> So allowing women free choice in what they want to wear to the beach causes threat and harm worldwide?
> 
> A nuclear burkini?
Click to expand...

I cannot make you understand what is in front of your eyes, what has been demonstrated through history and what is occurring in the world today.


----------



## StLucieBengal

idb said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> Below is listed signs and abuser tricks related to domestic violence.    How many of these relate to normal Islam....
> 
> We can easily trace every single one of these to the way Islam wants their women treated.
> 
> I got these from this site.   Abuser tricks and warning signs of domestic abuse. - New Hope for Women
> 
> Jealousy
> At the start of the relationship, an abuser will equate jealously with love. The abuser will question the victim about who the victim talks to, accuse the victim of flirting, or become jealous of time spent with others. The abuser may call the victim frequently during the day, drop by unexpectedly, refuse to let the victim work, check the car mileage, or ask friends to watch the victim.
> 
> Controlling behavior
> In the beginning an abuser will attribute controlling behavior to concern for the victim (for example, the victim's safety or decision-making skills). As this behavior progresses the situation will worsen, and the abuser may assume all control of finances or prevent the victim from coming and going freely.
> 
> Quick involvement
> A victim often has known or dated the abuser for a brief period of time before getting engaged or living together. The abuser will pressure the victim to commit to the relationship. A victim may be made to feel guilty for wanting to slow the pace or end the relationship.
> 
> Unrealistic expectations
> An abuser expects the victim to meet all of the abuser's needs, to take care of everything emotionally and domestically.
> 
> Isolation
> An abuser will attempt to isolate the victim by severing the victim's ties to outside support and resources. The batterer will accuse the victim's friends and family of being "trouble makers." The abuser may block the victim's access to use of a vehicle, work, or telephone service in the home.
> 
> Blames others for problems
> An abuser will blame others for all problems or for the abuser's own shortcomings. Someone is always out to get the abuser or is an obstacle to the abuser's achievements. The victim or potential victim will be blamed for almost anything.
> 
> Blames others for feelings
> An abuser will use feelings to manipulate the victim. Common phrases to look for: "You're hurting me by not doing what I want." "You control how I feel."
> 
> Hypersensitivity
> An abusive person is easily insulted, perceiving the slightest setbacks as personal attacks.
> 
> Cruelty to animals or children
> This is a person who punishes animals brutally or is insensitive to their pain. The abuser may expect children to perform beyond their capability (for example whipping a two-year-old for wetting a diaper or teasing children or siblings until they cry).
> 
> "Playful" use of force in sex
> This behavior includes restraining partners against their will during sex, acting out fantasies in which the partner is helpless, initiating sex when the partner is asleep, or demanding sex when the partner is ill or tired. The abuser may show little concern for his partner's wishes and will use sulking and anger to manipulate compliance.
> 
> Verbal abuse
> This behavior involves saying things that are intended to be cruel and hurtful, cursing or degrading the victim, or putting down the victim's accomplishments.
> 
> Rigid sex roles
> The victim, almost always a woman, will be expected to serve. For instance, a male abuser will see women as inferior to men, responsible for menial tasks, stupid, and unable to be a whole person without a relationship.
> 
> Dual personality "Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde"
> Explosive behavior and moodiness, which can shift quickly to congeniality, are typical of people who beat their partners.
> 
> Past battering
> An abuser will beat any partner if the individual is involved with the abuser long enough for the cycle of abuse to begin. Circumstances do not make a person an abusive personality.
> 
> Threats of violence
> This consists of any threat of physical force meant to control the partner. Most people do not threaten their mates but an abuser will excuse this behavior by claiming "everyone talks like that."
> 
> Breaking or striking objects
> This behavior is used as punishment (breaking sentimental possessions) or to terrorize the victim into submission.
> 
> Any force during an argument
> This may involve an abuser holding down his the victim, physically restraining the victim from leaving, or pushing or shoving. Holding someoneback in order to make demands, such as "You will listen to me!" is also a show of force.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> None of the above occur in "normal Islam" relationships.  There is a huge erroneous assumption being made based on the thought that all marriages involving "traditional" women's roles constitute abuse.
> 
> If a woman chooses to be a homemaker - is she abused?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Don't confuse a westernized Muslim for one of the crazies.  Majority of the westernized ones don't force this nonsense on their women.
> 
> Europe has a crazy Muslim problem.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How do you identify the 'crazies' and chase them off the beach?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The ones oppressing their women
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Was the woman in the photos being made to remove her clothing in France oppressed?
Click to expand...


Post the photo.

Btw it's hilarious to see you try the petty Alinsky tactics.   It just shows that you really have nothing to offer.   Coyote at least can discuss this topic and not waste our time with Alinsky tactic after tactic


----------



## StLucieBengal

idb said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> idb said:
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> 
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> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> So you have no problems when the victims of DV return home to their abusers?
> 
> You don't consider the years of mental punishment they have experienced that is clouding their judgement?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why the assumption that all Muslim women are abused?  That's ridiculous.  Just for a bit of perspective....
> 
> Modest Swimwear - Custom sized, made to order swimsuits by CoverUpForChrist
> Modest swimwear for ladies & girls | Aqua Modesta
> Modest Swimwear for Girls, Teens & Women by Sea Secret
> 
> Are you going to ban all of these people from enjoying the beach?  Are they all abused?
> 
> Does anyone see how utterly ridiculous this is?  A supposedly free society is suddenly mandating what a woman can wear!  How is that for oppression?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> None of those you posted cover up their heads or below their knees.
> 
> Which is a perfect example that there is conservative alternatives already on the market for the Muslims
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Is that the criteria you'd use to kick women off the beach?
> They mustn't cover their heads or lower legs?
> Just trying to get a handle on the rules here.
> 
> Does it apply to men as well?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Its interesting that you are so hell bent on making sure these women can be forced to be covered head to toe.
> 
> I would rather we dial it back to normal western standards and if they decide to go modest then there are plenty of options.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, I disagree with you telling them that the must dress a certain way.
> They should be able to dress any way they like...why do you want to oppress them?
Click to expand...


Oh so we should respect others religious choices now?   

Where were you in the gay wedding cake thread?


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## idb

StLucieBengal said:


> idb said:
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> StLucieBengal said:
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> idb said:
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> 
> StLucieBengal said:
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> None of the above occur in "normal Islam" relationships.  There is a huge erroneous assumption being made based on the thought that all marriages involving "traditional" women's roles constitute abuse.
> 
> If a woman chooses to be a homemaker - is she abused?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't confuse a westernized Muslim for one of the crazies.  Majority of the westernized ones don't force this nonsense on their women.
> 
> Europe has a crazy Muslim problem.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How do you identify the 'crazies' and chase them off the beach?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The ones oppressing their women
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Was the woman in the photos being made to remove her clothing in France oppressed?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Post the photo.
> 
> Btw it's hilarious to see you try the petty Alinsky tactics.   It just shows that you really have nothing to offer.   Coyote at least can discuss this topic and not waste our time with Alinsky tactic after tactic
Click to expand...

French police make woman remove clothing on Nice beach following burkini ban

'Alinsky tactics'?


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## idb

StLucieBengal said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
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> StLucieBengal said:
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> idb said:
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> 
> 
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> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why the assumption that all Muslim women are abused?  That's ridiculous.  Just for a bit of perspective....
> 
> Modest Swimwear - Custom sized, made to order swimsuits by CoverUpForChrist
> Modest swimwear for ladies & girls | Aqua Modesta
> Modest Swimwear for Girls, Teens & Women by Sea Secret
> 
> Are you going to ban all of these people from enjoying the beach?  Are they all abused?
> 
> Does anyone see how utterly ridiculous this is?  A supposedly free society is suddenly mandating what a woman can wear!  How is that for oppression?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> None of those you posted cover up their heads or below their knees.
> 
> Which is a perfect example that there is conservative alternatives already on the market for the Muslims
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Is that the criteria you'd use to kick women off the beach?
> They mustn't cover their heads or lower legs?
> Just trying to get a handle on the rules here.
> 
> Does it apply to men as well?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Its interesting that you are so hell bent on making sure these women can be forced to be covered head to toe.
> 
> I would rather we dial it back to normal western standards and if they decide to go modest then there are plenty of options.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, I disagree with you telling them that the must dress a certain way.
> They should be able to dress any way they like...why do you want to oppress them?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh so we should respect others religious choices now?
> 
> Where were you in the gay wedding cake thread?
Click to expand...

It has nothing to do with religious choices...it's freedom of choice choices.
Why's that so hard to understand?


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## StLucieBengal

Coyote said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
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> 
> 
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> StLucieBengal said:
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> idb said:
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> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
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> 
> 
> Because no woman goes to the beach to expose only her eyeballs in 95 degree heat.
> 
> 
> 
> Ok...you decide for her.
> Fair enough...there's no way a woman could have enough free will to make that decision for herself.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> So you have no problems when the victims of DV return home to their abusers?
> 
> You don't consider the years of mental punishment they have experienced that is clouding their judgement?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why the assumption that all Muslim women are abused?  That's ridiculous.  Just for a bit of perspective....
> 
> Modest Swimwear - Custom sized, made to order swimsuits by CoverUpForChrist
> Modest swimwear for ladies & girls | Aqua Modesta
> Modest Swimwear for Girls, Teens & Women by Sea Secret
> 
> Are you going to ban all of these people from enjoying the beach?  Are they all abused?
> 
> Does anyone see how utterly ridiculous this is?  A supposedly free society is suddenly mandating what a woman can wear!  How is that for oppression?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> None of those you posted cover up their heads or below their knees.
> 
> Which is a perfect example that there is conservative alternatives already on the market for the Muslims
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ok, you are now adjusting the goalposts.
> 
> Covering to the knees is "ok", covering below the knees is not.
> 
> So, the poor Jewish girl on the right will get kicked off the beach...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We seem to have this rather arbritrary standard in which to only isolate Muslim women from comfortably swimming, but it looks like that standard will sadly affect other religious groups unless you move the goal posts some more.
> 
> Instead of the Saudi Arabian "Modesty Police" we'll have the western style "Imodesty Police".  Wouldn't it simply be easier to allow women free choice....that's all we've ever wanted
Click to expand...



You mean they girl in the swimwear designed to wear when you surf?    

If the Muslims wanna dress that way then so be it.    I just don't want to see this other nonsense.   

If you want to live In the west then Take your 7th century bs elsewhere .  Leave it at home or don't come.


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## StLucieBengal

Coyote said:


> StLucieBengal said:
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> Coyote said:
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> skye said:
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> gtopa1 said:
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> skye said:
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> 
> 
> ...and why these sharia law people are going to the beach anyway?
> 
> it's not in the Koran.
> 
> STOP POLLUTING FRENCH BEACHES YOU SCUM!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That comment is offensive!!!
> 
> Greg
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> More offensive is that these unwanted hordes come over to the West and try to change our culture when they know we hate it and we know that if we go over there and wear a bikini they might throw us in jail and deport us!
> 
> What is also offensive and stupid is, how many naive Westerners are so quick to call everything which makes sense, offensive!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh for god's sakes, they're just people Skye.  So WHAT if a woman wants to dress more modestly at the beach?  Who CARES if they throw you into jail in Saudi Arabia for wearing a bikini.  This isn't Saudi Arabia and maybe THAT is why those women are here and not THERE, trying to enjoy the beach.  Ever thought of that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> They are bringing the Saudi Arabia lifestyle to the west.  That's the problem .   It wouldn't be a problem if they renounced their crazy behavior and went normal
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Just have to add.  Normal IS NOT thongs and speedos when your belly dunlops the speedo and the thong disappears into...enough said.
> 
> That's crazy behavior...no?
Click to expand...


Never said normal was thongs.    

But I can see every woman's head and face.  

Like I said if they want to wear what that surfboard girl you posted before was wearing then that's fine.      It's modest and we can still see who it is....


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## ChrisL

Honestly, I don't really give a crap what other people wear at the beach as long as I can wear what I want and they don't interfere with me.


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## StLucieBengal

Coyote said:


> skye said:
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> Coyote said:
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> skye said:
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> Coyote said:
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> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> More offensive is that these unwanted hordes come over to the West and try to change our culture when they know we hate it and we know that if we go over there and wear a bikini they might throw us in jail and deport us!
> 
> What is also offensive and stupid is, how many naive Westerners are so quick to call everything which makes sense, offensive!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh for god's sakes, they're just people Skye.  So WHAT if a woman wants to dress more modestly at the beach?  Who CARES if they throw you into jail in Saudi Arabia for wearing a bikini.  This isn't Saudi Arabia and maybe THAT is why those women are here and not THERE, trying to enjoy the beach.  Ever thought of that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You miss the point.
> 
> The reason these women dress "modestly" as you call it, is because their religion ordains it.
> 
> Whether you like it or not, we are at war with fundamental Islam, and we don't want to be constantly reminded of these facts by their powerful symbols of their brutal 7th century religion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Religions "ordain" many things.  Is the fact that Orthodox Jewish women keep their bodies and hair covered a "powerful symbol of their brutal 7th century religion" (though, it's much older than that)...or...is it free choice?
> 
> I'm sorry you do not like seeing women exercising their freedom of choice in a supposedly free western country.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How can you possibly compare Judaism to Islam?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Easy.  They're both religions.  Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow.  In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles.  Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Judaism?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Islam?  Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As mentioned fundamental  Islam is the  religion   that ordains jihad against the non believers by any means which at the moment means terrorism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So why should we   and the French  people not be upset when these Islamic symbols  are constantly being forced upon us.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who forced you to wear a burkini?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's got nothing to do at all with women's freedom of choice. It all about NOT SUBMITTING TO ISLAM.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...let's get this straight.  You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's quite surprising that feminists don't acknowledge how brutally women are treated in Islam.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are not discussing feminist rights but about trying to stop the spread of this alien culture whose purpose is to take over the host country like a virus.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?
> 
> Geez.  So much for freedom.
Click to expand...



We are at war with Islam.   Islamic terrorists come from 1 place.   Islam.   Regular Islamic mosques are where the radicals are grown and cultivated.  Through a religion of hate.    There was an excellent Muslim caller who called into the Katie Hopkins show and explained this perfectly.    I will try and find the link.     He called out his religion and said it was the problem.   

Why should any woman be forced to wear that burqa?    It's so sad that any western woman would stand by and let that happen.   There is dressing modestly.... And then there is the burqa.   Compared to the burqa the Amish women are dressing in high heels and boobie tassels. 


Isn't it our job as westerners to help women break free of the chains of oppression?   Like I said do we help the DV victims or pat their abuser on the back and tell him he is doing a great job.


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## StLucieBengal

idb said:


> StLucieBengal said:
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> 
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> idb said:
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> StLucieBengal said:
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> idb said:
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> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't confuse a westernized Muslim for one of the crazies.  Majority of the westernized ones don't force this nonsense on their women.
> 
> Europe has a crazy Muslim problem.
> 
> 
> 
> How do you identify the 'crazies' and chase them off the beach?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The ones oppressing their women
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Was the woman in the photos being made to remove her clothing in France oppressed?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Post the photo.
> 
> Btw it's hilarious to see you try the petty Alinsky tactics.   It just shows that you really have nothing to offer.   Coyote at least can discuss this topic and not waste our time with Alinsky tactic after tactic
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> French police make woman remove clothing on Nice beach following burkini ban
> 
> 'Alinsky tactics'?
Click to expand...


There is zero reason for that lady to be on the beach.   What is she there for?    To sweat?    Nothing like a fat sweaty Muslim woman.     


If you don't know what Alinsky tactics are then you really are in the deep water.    Go look at his 12 rules for radicals and you will see you have been using at least 3 of those in your posting on this subject alone.    Try getting some original thought instead of canned nonsense from a radical.


----------



## StLucieBengal

ChrisL said:


> Honestly, I don't really give a crap what other people wear at the beach as long as I can wear what I want and they don't interfere with me.



Yes but once you ok that it's only a matter of time until they expand their weirdness.


----------



## ChrisL

StLucieBengal said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly, I don't really give a crap what other people wear at the beach as long as I can wear what I want and they don't interfere with me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes but once you ok that it's only a matter of time until they expand their weirdness.
Click to expand...


Burkinis are the LEAST of our problems, I think.


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## StLucieBengal

idb said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> idb said:
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> StLucieBengal said:
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> 
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> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> None of those you posted cover up their heads or below their knees.
> 
> Which is a perfect example that there is conservative alternatives already on the market for the Muslims
> 
> 
> 
> Is that the criteria you'd use to kick women off the beach?
> They mustn't cover their heads or lower legs?
> Just trying to get a handle on the rules here.
> 
> Does it apply to men as well?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Its interesting that you are so hell bent on making sure these women can be forced to be covered head to toe.
> 
> I would rather we dial it back to normal western standards and if they decide to go modest then there are plenty of options.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, I disagree with you telling them that the must dress a certain way.
> They should be able to dress any way they like...why do you want to oppress them?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh so we should respect others religious choices now?
> 
> Where were you in the gay wedding cake thread?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It has nothing to do with religious choices...it's freedom of choice choices.
> Why's that so hard to understand?
Click to expand...


So the burqa isn't a religious garmet?   They just enjoy dressing up as black ghosts all the time?   

Gotcha lol


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## StLucieBengal

ChrisL said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly, I don't really give a crap what other people wear at the beach as long as I can wear what I want and they don't interfere with me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes but once you ok that it's only a matter of time until they expand their weirdness.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Burkinis are the LEAST of our problems, I think.
Click to expand...


They aren't a major thing but We volunteer a lot time helping victims of domestic violence.   So I know when someone is being dominated and how hard it is to break the mental chains and spell people can be under.     

I see a lot of parallels between women of Islam and DV victims.


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## ChrisL

StLucieBengal said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
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> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly, I don't really give a crap what other people wear at the beach as long as I can wear what I want and they don't interfere with me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes but once you ok that it's only a matter of time until they expand their weirdness.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Burkinis are the LEAST of our problems, I think.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They aren't a major thing but We volunteer a lot time helping victims of domestic violence.   So I know when someone is being dominated and how hard it is to break the mental chains and spell people can be under.
> 
> I see a lot of parallels between women of Islam and DV victims.
Click to expand...


Yes, well some women may just be modest about their bodies.  My friend had big boobs and hated how men stared at them.  She wore a T-shirt and shorts whenever she went to the beach.


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## StLucieBengal

ChrisL said:


> StLucieBengal said:
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> ChrisL said:
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> StLucieBengal said:
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> ChrisL said:
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> 
> 
> Honestly, I don't really give a crap what other people wear at the beach as long as I can wear what I want and they don't interfere with me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes but once you ok that it's only a matter of time until they expand their weirdness.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Burkinis are the LEAST of our problems, I think.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They aren't a major thing but We volunteer a lot time helping victims of domestic violence.   So I know when someone is being dominated and how hard it is to break the mental chains and spell people can be under.
> 
> I see a lot of parallels between women of Islam and DV victims.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, well some women may just be modest about their bodies.  My friend had big boobs and hated how men stared at them.  She wore a T-shirt and shorts whenever she went to the beach.
Click to expand...


Being modest isn't a problem at all.    

The photos coyote posted trying to be pro burka.    They are just modest where we can still see face, neck, head.    And most of time we can see below the knees.    Other than the surfboard girl.     

If Muslims are that worried then why don't just wear a full wetsuit?


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## ChrisL

StLucieBengal said:


> ChrisL said:
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> StLucieBengal said:
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> ChrisL said:
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> StLucieBengal said:
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> ChrisL said:
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> 
> 
> Honestly, I don't really give a crap what other people wear at the beach as long as I can wear what I want and they don't interfere with me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes but once you ok that it's only a matter of time until they expand their weirdness.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Burkinis are the LEAST of our problems, I think.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They aren't a major thing but We volunteer a lot time helping victims of domestic violence.   So I know when someone is being dominated and how hard it is to break the mental chains and spell people can be under.
> 
> I see a lot of parallels between women of Islam and DV victims.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, well some women may just be modest about their bodies.  My friend had big boobs and hated how men stared at them.  She wore a T-shirt and shorts whenever she went to the beach.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Being modest isn't a problem at all.
> 
> The photos coyote posted trying to be pro burka.    They are just modest where we can still see face, neck, head.    And most of time we can see below the knees.    Other than the surfboard girl.
> 
> If Muslims are that worried then why don't just wear a full wetsuit?
Click to expand...


Who cares?    If they try to make me wear one, then we can talk.


----------



## StLucieBengal

ChrisL said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes but once you ok that it's only a matter of time until they expand their weirdness.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Burkinis are the LEAST of our problems, I think.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They aren't a major thing but We volunteer a lot time helping victims of domestic violence.   So I know when someone is being dominated and how hard it is to break the mental chains and spell people can be under.
> 
> I see a lot of parallels between women of Islam and DV victims.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, well some women may just be modest about their bodies.  My friend had big boobs and hated how men stared at them.  She wore a T-shirt and shorts whenever she went to the beach.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Being modest isn't a problem at all.
> 
> The photos coyote posted trying to be pro burka.    They are just modest where we can still see face, neck, head.    And most of time we can see below the knees.    Other than the surfboard girl.
> 
> If Muslims are that worried then why don't just wear a full wetsuit?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who cares?    If they try to make me wear one, then we can talk.
Click to expand...



They have a long history of being vocal towards non Muslim women once they feel like their nonsense is accepted.


----------



## ChrisL

StLucieBengal said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Burkinis are the LEAST of our problems, I think.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They aren't a major thing but We volunteer a lot time helping victims of domestic violence.   So I know when someone is being dominated and how hard it is to break the mental chains and spell people can be under.
> 
> I see a lot of parallels between women of Islam and DV victims.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, well some women may just be modest about their bodies.  My friend had big boobs and hated how men stared at them.  She wore a T-shirt and shorts whenever she went to the beach.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Being modest isn't a problem at all.
> 
> The photos coyote posted trying to be pro burka.    They are just modest where we can still see face, neck, head.    And most of time we can see below the knees.    Other than the surfboard girl.
> 
> If Muslims are that worried then why don't just wear a full wetsuit?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who cares?    If they try to make me wear one, then we can talk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They have a long history of being vocal towards non Muslim women once they feel like their nonsense is accepted.
Click to expand...


Well, that hasn't happened here that I'm aware of.  Not something I'm going to worry about when there are more important things to think about right now.


----------



## Tilly

StLucieBengal said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Burkinis are the LEAST of our problems, I think.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They aren't a major thing but We volunteer a lot time helping victims of domestic violence.   So I know when someone is being dominated and how hard it is to break the mental chains and spell people can be under.
> 
> I see a lot of parallels between women of Islam and DV victims.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, well some women may just be modest about their bodies.  My friend had big boobs and hated how men stared at them.  She wore a T-shirt and shorts whenever she went to the beach.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Being modest isn't a problem at all.
> 
> The photos coyote posted trying to be pro burka.    They are just modest where we can still see face, neck, head.    And most of time we can see below the knees.    Other than the surfboard girl.
> 
> If Muslims are that worried then why don't just wear a full wetsuit?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who cares?    If they try to make me wear one, then we can talk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> They have a long history of being vocal towards non Muslim women once they feel like their nonsense is accepted.
Click to expand...

It wasn't that long ago that a Muslim man stabbed a mother and her children at a French holiday resort because they weren't dressed "modestly' enough for his liking - they were wearing T shirts and shorts and the youngest girl was only 8 yrs old. They were all hospitalised.
Also, women were verbally attacked and threatened by Muslim men and women somewhere else in France for wearing bikinis.  
Not to mention the Corsican beach where Muslim men decided the beach where they were with their wives was off limits to non Muslims - a riot broke out. 
The burkini is just another tool in their arsenal and part of the uniform of Islamism -  the men are by and large pushing it and the women are happy to oblige. There are plenty of modest types of clothing one can wear to the beach without advertising your religion - something France is very tetchy about.


----------



## ChrisL

I would say that the French need to take control of their shit.


----------



## idb

StLucieBengal said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
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> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> How do you identify the 'crazies' and chase them off the beach?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The ones oppressing their women
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Was the woman in the photos being made to remove her clothing in France oppressed?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Post the photo.
> 
> Btw it's hilarious to see you try the petty Alinsky tactics.   It just shows that you really have nothing to offer.   Coyote at least can discuss this topic and not waste our time with Alinsky tactic after tactic
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> French police make woman remove clothing on Nice beach following burkini ban
> 
> 'Alinsky tactics'?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There is zero reason for that lady to be on the beach.   What is she there for?    To sweat?    Nothing like a fat sweaty Muslim woman.
> 
> 
> If you don't know what Alinsky tactics are then you really are in the deep water.    Go look at his 12 rules for radicals and you will see you have been using at least 3 of those in your posting on this subject alone.    Try getting some original thought instead of canned nonsense from a radical.
Click to expand...


_There is zero reason for that lady to be on the beach.  What is she there for?    To sweat?
_
I don't know and it's none of my business...neither is it yours.


----------



## idb

StLucieBengal said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is that the criteria you'd use to kick women off the beach?
> They mustn't cover their heads or lower legs?
> Just trying to get a handle on the rules here.
> 
> Does it apply to men as well?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Its interesting that you are so hell bent on making sure these women can be forced to be covered head to toe.
> 
> I would rather we dial it back to normal western standards and if they decide to go modest then there are plenty of options.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, I disagree with you telling them that the must dress a certain way.
> They should be able to dress any way they like...why do you want to oppress them?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh so we should respect others religious choices now?
> 
> Where were you in the gay wedding cake thread?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It has nothing to do with religious choices...it's freedom of choice choices.
> Why's that so hard to understand?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So the burqa isn't a religious garmet?   They just enjoy dressing up as black ghosts all the time?
> 
> Gotcha lol
Click to expand...

I never said that.
Sheesh...you really can't follow an argument can you?
It may be religious dress but it's her choice to wear it.
It would also be her choice to wear a crucifix around her neck or a yarmulke...they're both religious items.


----------



## StLucieBengal

idb said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its interesting that you are so hell bent on making sure these women can be forced to be covered head to toe.
> 
> I would rather we dial it back to normal western standards and if they decide to go modest then there are plenty of options.
> 
> 
> 
> No, I disagree with you telling them that the must dress a certain way.
> They should be able to dress any way they like...why do you want to oppress them?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh so we should respect others religious choices now?
> 
> Where were you in the gay wedding cake thread?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It has nothing to do with religious choices...it's freedom of choice choices.
> Why's that so hard to understand?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So the burqa isn't a religious garmet?   They just enjoy dressing up as black ghosts all the time?
> 
> Gotcha lol
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I never said that.
> Sheesh...you really can't follow an argument can you?
> It may be religious dress but it's her choice to wear it.
> It would also be her choice to wear a crucifix around her neck or a yarmulke...they're both religious items.
Click to expand...


Yes but a cross isn't covering their entire body.   

I realize this is probably something neat for you because it feels exotic and different so you assume it must be good.    What's odd is that you are not taking into account what wearing these items mean.    And the history behind them.    

Sometimes the positives are outweighed by the negatives.    And no matter what positives some thing brings you would never accept the negatives.


----------



## gtopa1

skye said:


> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...and why these sharia law people are going to the beach anyway?
> 
> it's not in the Koran.
> 
> STOP POLLUTING FRENCH BEACHES YOU SCUM!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That comment is offensive!!!
> 
> Greg
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> More offensive is that these unwanted hordes come over to the West and try to change our culture when they know we hate it and we know that if we go over there and wear a bikini they might throw us in jail and deport us!
> 
> What is also offensive and stupid is, how many naive Westerners are so quick to call everything which makes sense, offensive!
Click to expand...


Er: I asked why it was offensive to wear a burkini? I couldn't give a damn about what anyone wears quite frankly.

Greg


----------



## gtopa1

StLucieBengal said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> Below is listed signs and abuser tricks related to domestic violence.    How many of these relate to normal Islam....
> 
> We can easily trace every single one of these to the way Islam wants their women treated.
> 
> I got these from this site.   Abuser tricks and warning signs of domestic abuse. - New Hope for Women
> 
> Jealousy
> At the start of the relationship, an abuser will equate jealously with love. The abuser will question the victim about who the victim talks to, accuse the victim of flirting, or become jealous of time spent with others. The abuser may call the victim frequently during the day, drop by unexpectedly, refuse to let the victim work, check the car mileage, or ask friends to watch the victim.
> 
> Controlling behavior
> In the beginning an abuser will attribute controlling behavior to concern for the victim (for example, the victim's safety or decision-making skills). As this behavior progresses the situation will worsen, and the abuser may assume all control of finances or prevent the victim from coming and going freely.
> 
> Quick involvement
> A victim often has known or dated the abuser for a brief period of time before getting engaged or living together. The abuser will pressure the victim to commit to the relationship. A victim may be made to feel guilty for wanting to slow the pace or end the relationship.
> 
> Unrealistic expectations
> An abuser expects the victim to meet all of the abuser's needs, to take care of everything emotionally and domestically.
> 
> Isolation
> An abuser will attempt to isolate the victim by severing the victim's ties to outside support and resources. The batterer will accuse the victim's friends and family of being "trouble makers." The abuser may block the victim's access to use of a vehicle, work, or telephone service in the home.
> 
> Blames others for problems
> An abuser will blame others for all problems or for the abuser's own shortcomings. Someone is always out to get the abuser or is an obstacle to the abuser's achievements. The victim or potential victim will be blamed for almost anything.
> 
> Blames others for feelings
> An abuser will use feelings to manipulate the victim. Common phrases to look for: "You're hurting me by not doing what I want." "You control how I feel."
> 
> Hypersensitivity
> An abusive person is easily insulted, perceiving the slightest setbacks as personal attacks.
> 
> Cruelty to animals or children
> This is a person who punishes animals brutally or is insensitive to their pain. The abuser may expect children to perform beyond their capability (for example whipping a two-year-old for wetting a diaper or teasing children or siblings until they cry).
> 
> "Playful" use of force in sex
> This behavior includes restraining partners against their will during sex, acting out fantasies in which the partner is helpless, initiating sex when the partner is asleep, or demanding sex when the partner is ill or tired. The abuser may show little concern for his partner's wishes and will use sulking and anger to manipulate compliance.
> 
> Verbal abuse
> This behavior involves saying things that are intended to be cruel and hurtful, cursing or degrading the victim, or putting down the victim's accomplishments.
> 
> Rigid sex roles
> The victim, almost always a woman, will be expected to serve. For instance, a male abuser will see women as inferior to men, responsible for menial tasks, stupid, and unable to be a whole person without a relationship.
> 
> Dual personality "Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde"
> Explosive behavior and moodiness, which can shift quickly to congeniality, are typical of people who beat their partners.
> 
> Past battering
> An abuser will beat any partner if the individual is involved with the abuser long enough for the cycle of abuse to begin. Circumstances do not make a person an abusive personality.
> 
> Threats of violence
> This consists of any threat of physical force meant to control the partner. Most people do not threaten their mates but an abuser will excuse this behavior by claiming "everyone talks like that."
> 
> Breaking or striking objects
> This behavior is used as punishment (breaking sentimental possessions) or to terrorize the victim into submission.
> 
> Any force during an argument
> This may involve an abuser holding down his the victim, physically restraining the victim from leaving, or pushing or shoving. Holding someoneback in order to make demands, such as "You will listen to me!" is also a show of force.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> None of the above occur in "normal Islam" relationships.  There is a huge erroneous assumption being made based on the thought that all marriages involving "traditional" women's roles constitute abuse.
> 
> If a woman chooses to be a homemaker - is she abused?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Don't confuse a westernized Muslim for one of the crazies.  Majority of the westernized ones don't force this nonsense on their women.
> 
> Europe has a crazy Muslim problem.
Click to expand...


Not banned on the track that I know of.







Greg


----------



## Esmeralda

Tilly said:


> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I find it odd that there are those who say a woman who wears sluttish clothing contributes to her own rape but that something as sexless as a burkini is deemed improper? Sorry; I don't see any reason to ban the burkini. In fact in a land with the highest melanoma rate in the world I would find them downright sensible!!
> 
> Greg
> 
> 
> 
> In terms of health issues, France doesn't have the rate of melanoma Australia does, nowhere in Europe does. However, vit D deficiency, which eventually results in all sorts of health problems, including osteoporosis and heart disease, is an issue for people who swathe themselves from head to toe even in the summer months. You have to expose quite a bit of skin to make vit D.
Click to expand...

It is true: vitamin D deficiency is a serious issue for Muslim women who 'cover.'  Over exposure to the sun is a serious issue for women in the West who spend a lot of time in the sun exposing a lot of skin.  Western women can wear sunscreen.  Islamic women have to get medical treatment for their lack of vitamin D.


----------



## gtopa1

idb said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> So you have no problems when the victims of DV return home to their abusers?
> 
> You don't consider the years of mental punishment they have experienced that is clouding their judgement?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why the assumption that all Muslim women are abused?  That's ridiculous.  Just for a bit of perspective....
> 
> Modest Swimwear - Custom sized, made to order swimsuits by CoverUpForChrist
> Modest swimwear for ladies & girls | Aqua Modesta
> Modest Swimwear for Girls, Teens & Women by Sea Secret
> 
> Are you going to ban all of these people from enjoying the beach?  Are they all abused?
> 
> Does anyone see how utterly ridiculous this is?  A supposedly free society is suddenly mandating what a woman can wear!  How is that for oppression?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> None of those you posted cover up their heads or below their knees.
> 
> Which is a perfect example that there is conservative alternatives already on the market for the Muslims
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Is that the criteria you'd use to kick women off the beach?
> They mustn't cover their heads or lower legs?
> Just trying to get a handle on the rules here.
> 
> Does it apply to men as well?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Its interesting that you are so hell bent on making sure these women can be forced to be covered head to toe.
> 
> I would rather we dial it back to normal western standards and if they decide to go modest then there are plenty of options.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, I disagree with you telling them that the must dress a certain way.
> They should be able to dress any way they like...why do you want to oppress them?
Click to expand...


I think that they're trying to liberate them and I accept that. But many of these people are in transition. I suggest that we just be patient. Burkinis are only a recent invention. 

Greg


----------



## idb

StLucieBengal said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, I disagree with you telling them that the must dress a certain way.
> They should be able to dress any way they like...why do you want to oppress them?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh so we should respect others religious choices now?
> 
> Where were you in the gay wedding cake thread?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It has nothing to do with religious choices...it's freedom of choice choices.
> Why's that so hard to understand?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So the burqa isn't a religious garmet?   They just enjoy dressing up as black ghosts all the time?
> 
> Gotcha lol
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I never said that.
> Sheesh...you really can't follow an argument can you?
> It may be religious dress but it's her choice to wear it.
> It would also be her choice to wear a crucifix around her neck or a yarmulke...they're both religious items.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes but a cross isn't covering their entire body.
> 
> I realize this is probably something neat for you because it feels exotic and different so you assume it must be good.    What's odd is that you are not taking into account what wearing these items mean.    And the history behind them.
> 
> Sometimes the positives are outweighed by the negatives.    And no matter what positives some thing brings you would never accept the negatives.
Click to expand...

"Yes but..."


----------



## StLucieBengal

idb said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh so we should respect others religious choices now?
> 
> Where were you in the gay wedding cake thread?
> 
> 
> 
> It has nothing to do with religious choices...it's freedom of choice choices.
> Why's that so hard to understand?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So the burqa isn't a religious garmet?   They just enjoy dressing up as black ghosts all the time?
> 
> Gotcha lol
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I never said that.
> Sheesh...you really can't follow an argument can you?
> It may be religious dress but it's her choice to wear it.
> It would also be her choice to wear a crucifix around her neck or a yarmulke...they're both religious items.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes but a cross isn't covering their entire body.
> 
> I realize this is probably something neat for you because it feels exotic and different so you assume it must be good.    What's odd is that you are not taking into account what wearing these items mean.    And the history behind them.
> 
> Sometimes the positives are outweighed by the negatives.    And no matter what positives some thing brings you would never accept the negatives.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> "Yes but..."
Click to expand...


There will always be a but when you make ridiculous comparisons.     

Try comparing apples to apples just once in this thread.


----------



## gtopa1

idb said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> So you have no problems when the victims of DV return home to their abusers?
> 
> You don't consider the years of mental punishment they have experienced that is clouding their judgement?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why the assumption that all Muslim women are abused?  That's ridiculous.  Just for a bit of perspective....
> 
> Modest Swimwear - Custom sized, made to order swimsuits by CoverUpForChrist
> Modest swimwear for ladies & girls | Aqua Modesta
> Modest Swimwear for Girls, Teens & Women by Sea Secret
> 
> Are you going to ban all of these people from enjoying the beach?  Are they all abused?
> 
> Does anyone see how utterly ridiculous this is?  A supposedly free society is suddenly mandating what a woman can wear!  How is that for oppression?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> None of those you posted cover up their heads or below their knees.
> 
> Which is a perfect example that there is conservative alternatives already on the market for the Muslims
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Is that the criteria you'd use to kick women off the beach?
> They mustn't cover their heads or lower legs?
> Just trying to get a handle on the rules here.
> 
> Does it apply to men as well?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Its interesting that you are so hell bent on making sure these women can be forced to be covered head to toe.
> 
> I would rather we dial it back to normal western standards and if they decide to go modest then there are plenty of options.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, I disagree with you telling them that the must dress a certain way.
> They should be able to dress any way they like...why do you want to oppress them?
Click to expand...


I think that they're trying to liberate them and I accept that. But many of these people are in transition. I suggest that we just be patient. Burkinis are only a recent invention. 

Greg


----------



## gtopa1

Alex. said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Religions "ordain" many things.  Is the fact that Orthodox Jewish women keep their bodies and hair covered a "powerful symbol of their brutal 7th century religion" (though, it's much older than that)...or...is it free choice?
> 
> I'm sorry you do not like seeing women exercising their freedom of choice in a supposedly free western country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How can you possibly compare Judaism to Islam?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Easy.  They're both religions.  Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow.  In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles.  Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Judaism?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Islam?  Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As mentioned fundamental  Islam is the  religion   that ordains jihad against the non believers by any means which at the moment means terrorism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So why should we   and the French  people not be upset when these Islamic symbols  are constantly being forced upon us.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who forced you to wear a burkini?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's got nothing to do at all with women's freedom of choice. It all about NOT SUBMITTING TO ISLAM.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...let's get this straight.  You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's quite surprising that feminists don't acknowledge how brutally women are treated in Islam.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are not discussing feminist rights but about trying to stop the spread of this alien culture whose purpose is to take over the host country like a virus.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?
> 
> Geez.  So much for freedom.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There is only one religion who is trying to annihilate everyone who does not believe in their God or attempts to force their religious laws down the throats of the society they choose to enter.
> 
> That is the difference.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Unfortunately that is not accurate.  But keep trying.
> 
> And while you're at it, enlighten us as to why it's somehow progressive to remove free choice from women.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Right....more like a nightmare.
Click to expand...


Burkinis caused 9/11??

Greg


----------



## gtopa1

StLucieBengal said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> How do you identify the 'crazies' and chase them off the beach?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The ones oppressing their women
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Was the woman in the photos being made to remove her clothing in France oppressed?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Post the photo.
> 
> Btw it's hilarious to see you try the petty Alinsky tactics.   It just shows that you really have nothing to offer.   Coyote at least can discuss this topic and not waste our time with Alinsky tactic after tactic
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> French police make woman remove clothing on Nice beach following burkini ban
> 
> 'Alinsky tactics'?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There is zero reason for that lady to be on the beach.   What is she there for?    To sweat?    Nothing like a fat sweaty Muslim woman.
> 
> 
> .
Click to expand...


Fat English women at the beach??






Greg


----------



## gtopa1

ChrisL said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes but once you ok that it's only a matter of time until they expand their weirdness.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Burkinis are the LEAST of our problems, I think.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They aren't a major thing but We volunteer a lot time helping victims of domestic violence.   So I know when someone is being dominated and how hard it is to break the mental chains and spell people can be under.
> 
> I see a lot of parallels between women of Islam and DV victims.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, well some women may just be modest about their bodies.  My friend had big boobs and hated how men stared at them.  She wore a T-shirt and shorts whenever she went to the beach.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Being modest isn't a problem at all.
> 
> The photos coyote posted trying to be pro burka.    They are just modest where we can still see face, neck, head.    And most of time we can see below the knees.    Other than the surfboard girl.
> 
> If Muslims are that worried then why don't just wear a full wetsuit?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who cares?    If they try to make me wear one, then we can talk.
Click to expand...


I don't want to wear no steeenking burkini!!!!

Greg


----------



## gtopa1

Esmeralda said:


> Tilly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I find it odd that there are those who say a woman who wears sluttish clothing contributes to her own rape but that something as sexless as a burkini is deemed improper? Sorry; I don't see any reason to ban the burkini. In fact in a land with the highest melanoma rate in the world I would find them downright sensible!!
> 
> Greg
> 
> 
> 
> In terms of health issues, France doesn't have the rate of melanoma Australia does, nowhere in Europe does. However, vit D deficiency, which eventually results in all sorts of health problems, including osteoporosis and heart disease, is an issue for people who swathe themselves from head to toe even in the summer months. You have to expose quite a bit of skin to make vit D.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It is true: vitamin D deficiency is a serious issue for Muslim women who 'cover.'  Over exposure to the sun is a serious issue for women in the West who spend a lot of time in the sun exposing a lot of skin.  Western women can wear sunscreen.  Islamic women have to get medical treatment for their lack of vitamin D.
Click to expand...

Why not just take Vitamin D tabs like I do; I hate too much sun.

Greg


----------



## Mindful

How about a Boxini?

For the Islamic thinking beach babe.


----------



## gtopa1

Mindful said:


> How about a Boxini?
> 
> For the Islamic thinking beach babe.



Has to be a Ford EU invention!!!

Ya know who I mean!!!

Greg


----------



## gtopa1

Artistic even......

Greg


----------



## gtopa1

Meanwhile, the bikini was not unknown among the ancients....Sicily circa 200AD.

Greg


----------



## Esmeralda

gtopa1 said:


> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tilly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I find it odd that there are those who say a woman who wears sluttish clothing contributes to her own rape but that something as sexless as a burkini is deemed improper? Sorry; I don't see any reason to ban the burkini. In fact in a land with the highest melanoma rate in the world I would find them downright sensible!!
> 
> Greg
> 
> 
> 
> In terms of health issues, France doesn't have the rate of melanoma Australia does, nowhere in Europe does. However, vit D deficiency, which eventually results in all sorts of health problems, including osteoporosis and heart disease, is an issue for people who swathe themselves from head to toe even in the summer months. You have to expose quite a bit of skin to make vit D.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It is true: vitamin D deficiency is a serious issue for Muslim women who 'cover.'  Over exposure to the sun is a serious issue for women in the West who spend a lot of time in the sun exposing a lot of skin.  Western women can wear sunscreen.  Islamic women have to get medical treatment for their lack of vitamin D.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why not just take Vitamin D tabs like I do; I hate too much sun.
> 
> Greg
Click to expand...

I don't know.  I think if you almost totally lack sun exposure, just taking vitamins may not be enough.  Women who are very strict about covering totally cover when they are outside, always.  So they really don't get any sun, and they have health problems because of it.

"There is concern among the medical community about some of the health effects of the extreme styles of Islamic dress, with the main issues arising from Vitamin D deficiency due to lack skin exposed to UV light. It has been established by credible scientific evidence that almost all women who observe the full hijab are chronically deficient in Vitamin D.[2] Vitamin D is a vital nutrient and deficiency of this kind can lead to various diseases."

"Due to this reason, serious vitamin D deficiency is wide-spread in many Muslim majority countries. A study performed by doctors at King Fahd University Hospital in Saudi Arabia, showed that out of all 52 women tested, _all_ had seriously deficient levels of Vitamin D and were at risk of many serious health problems, despite living in one of the sunniest places on the planet.[10] Furthermore, in a study undertaken in Jordan, 83.3% of women wearing the most covering style of Islamic dresses were found to be deficient in summer time. This is rather striking when compared to the fact only 18.2% of Jordanian men studied were found to be deficient.[11] Jordan, like Saudi Arabia, holds the distinction of being one of the sunniest places on the planet, so the effect of wearing the burqa on Vitamin D levels and health is profound."

Health Effects of Islamic Dress - WikiIslam


----------



## gtopa1

Esmeralda said:


> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tilly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I find it odd that there are those who say a woman who wears sluttish clothing contributes to her own rape but that something as sexless as a burkini is deemed improper? Sorry; I don't see any reason to ban the burkini. In fact in a land with the highest melanoma rate in the world I would find them downright sensible!!
> 
> Greg
> 
> 
> 
> In terms of health issues, France doesn't have the rate of melanoma Australia does, nowhere in Europe does. However, vit D deficiency, which eventually results in all sorts of health problems, including osteoporosis and heart disease, is an issue for people who swathe themselves from head to toe even in the summer months. You have to expose quite a bit of skin to make vit D.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It is true: vitamin D deficiency is a serious issue for Muslim women who 'cover.'  Over exposure to the sun is a serious issue for women in the West who spend a lot of time in the sun exposing a lot of skin.  Western women can wear sunscreen.  Islamic women have to get medical treatment for their lack of vitamin D.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why not just take Vitamin D tabs like I do; I hate too much sun.
> 
> Greg
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't know.  I think if you almost totally lack sun exposure, just taking vitamins may not be enough.  Women who are very strict about covering totally cover when they are outside, always.  So they really don't get any sun, and they have health problems because of it.
> 
> "There is concern among the medical community about some of the health effects of the extreme styles of Islamic dress, with the main issues arising from Vitamin D deficiency due to lack skin exposed to UV light. It has been established by credible scientific evidence that almost all women who observe the full hijab are chronically deficient in Vitamin D.[2] Vitamin D is a vital nutrient and deficiency of this kind can lead to various diseases."
> 
> "Due to this reason, serious vitamin D deficiency is wide-spread in many Muslim majority countries. A study performed by doctors at King Fahd University Hospital in Saudi Arabia, showed that out of all 52 women tested, _all_ had seriously deficient levels of Vitamin D and were at risk of many serious health problems, despite living in one of the sunniest places on the planet.[10] Furthermore, in a study undertaken in Jordan, 83.3% of women wearing the most covering style of Islamic dresses were found to be deficient in summer time. This is rather striking when compared to the fact only 18.2% of Jordanian men studied were found to be deficient.[11] Jordan, like Saudi Arabia, holds the distinction of being one of the sunniest places on the planet, so the effect of wearing the burqa on Vitamin D levels and health is profound."
> 
> Health Effects of Islamic Dress - WikiIslam
Click to expand...


Thank you for that. I was VitD deficient myself but after a course of tabs I am good as gold. I don't know that the Lancet gives much cred to artificial VitD. I will look into it. 

Greg


----------



## gtopa1

> The prevalence of vitamin D deficiencies was 55.0% for covered and 20.0% for uncovered students. The vitamin D status was found to be statistically significant and had a negative correlation with the duration of Islamic dressing (P < .05, r = -0.334). We concluded that the vitamin D levels of young women are associated with clothing style, and the age at which a female begins wearing Muslim style clothing is related.



Clothing preference affects vitamin D status of young women.  - PubMed - NCBI

Quite an interesting finding.

Greg

(PS: I am no great fan of WikiIslam).


----------



## Esmeralda

gtopa1 said:


> The prevalence of vitamin D deficiencies was 55.0% for covered and 20.0% for uncovered students. The vitamin D status was found to be statistically significant and had a negative correlation with the duration of Islamic dressing (P < .05, r = -0.334). We concluded that the vitamin D levels of young women are associated with clothing style, and the age at which a female begins wearing Muslim style clothing is related.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Clothing preference affects vitamin D status of young women.  - PubMed - NCBI
> 
> Quite an interesting finding.
> 
> Greg
> 
> _*(PS: I am no great fan of WikiIslam*_).
Click to expand...


I've never seen it (wiki Islam) before, just Googled the information I wanted. I've read about this problem before, in independent articles, not from wikiislam.  I have lived in Islamic countries and know about the problem first hand. Have talked about this issue to Muslim women who don't cover; one of my best friends when I lived in Turkey is a Muslim.  She talked about this problem and how it is a prevalent problem for Muslim women.

Depending on how religious and conservative your family is, covering is a personal choice.  But, I think that the suggestion that it is somehow oppressive is correct. Women who come from families that are more modern minded and less fundamentalist about religion tend not to cover.


----------



## Alex.

gtopa1 said:


> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> How can you possibly compare Judaism to Islam?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Easy.  They're both religions.  Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow.  In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles.  Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Judaism?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Islam?  Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As mentioned fundamental  Islam is the  religion   that ordains jihad against the non believers by any means which at the moment means terrorism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So why should we   and the French  people not be upset when these Islamic symbols  are constantly being forced upon us.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who forced you to wear a burkini?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's got nothing to do at all with women's freedom of choice. It all about NOT SUBMITTING TO ISLAM.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...let's get this straight.  You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's quite surprising that feminists don't acknowledge how brutally women are treated in Islam.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are not discussing feminist rights but about trying to stop the spread of this alien culture whose purpose is to take over the host country like a virus.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?
> 
> Geez.  So much for freedom.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There is only one religion who is trying to annihilate everyone who does not believe in their God or attempts to force their religious laws down the throats of the society they choose to enter.
> 
> That is the difference.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Unfortunately that is not accurate.  But keep trying.
> 
> And while you're at it, enlighten us as to why it's somehow progressive to remove free choice from women.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Right....more like a nightmare.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Burkinis caused 9/11??
> 
> Greg
Click to expand...


----------



## gtopa1

Esmeralda said:


> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The prevalence of vitamin D deficiencies was 55.0% for covered and 20.0% for uncovered students. The vitamin D status was found to be statistically significant and had a negative correlation with the duration of Islamic dressing (P < .05, r = -0.334). We concluded that the vitamin D levels of young women are associated with clothing style, and the age at which a female begins wearing Muslim style clothing is related.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Clothing preference affects vitamin D status of young women.  - PubMed - NCBI
> 
> Quite an interesting finding.
> 
> Greg
> 
> _*(PS: I am no great fan of WikiIslam*_).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I've never seen it (wiki Islam) before, just Googled the information I wanted. I've read about this problem before, in independent articles, not from wikiislam.  I have lived in Islamic countries and know about the problem first hand. Have talked about this issue to Muslim women who don't cover; one of my best friends when I lived in Turkey is a Muslim.  She talked about this problem and how it is a prevalent problem for Muslim women.
> 
> Depending on how religious and conservative your family is, covering is a personal choice.  But, I think that the suggestion that it is somehow oppressive is correct. Women who come from families that are more modern minded and less fundamentalist about religion tend not to cover.
Click to expand...


I get sunburn very easily so covering is not a problem for me. I've also had several hundred of those sunspot thingies burned off as well as several "near things" in the melanoma maybe stakes. But you are a welcome bit of balance on the question. I have ZERO problem with what is worn and I do get that it is a religious thingy but the banning seems to me to be just dumb. I am far more concerned with other apparel; the type that goes kaboom!!
I do wonder if the burkini is all that oppressive? Seems to me to be a transition garment to "something more comfortable". 






Olympic standard





Burkini

Hopefully, whatever the VitD prob, it can be easily treated. Mine is.

Greg


----------



## Esmeralda

gtopa1 said:


> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The prevalence of vitamin D deficiencies was 55.0% for covered and 20.0% for uncovered students. The vitamin D status was found to be statistically significant and had a negative correlation with the duration of Islamic dressing (P < .05, r = -0.334). We concluded that the vitamin D levels of young women are associated with clothing style, and the age at which a female begins wearing Muslim style clothing is related.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Clothing preference affects vitamin D status of young women.  - PubMed - NCBI
> 
> Quite an interesting finding.
> 
> Greg
> 
> _*(PS: I am no great fan of WikiIslam*_).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I've never seen it (wiki Islam) before, just Googled the information I wanted. I've read about this problem before, in independent articles, not from wikiislam.  I have lived in Islamic countries and know about the problem first hand. Have talked about this issue to Muslim women who don't cover; one of my best friends when I lived in Turkey is a Muslim.  She talked about this problem and how it is a prevalent problem for Muslim women.
> 
> Depending on how religious and conservative your family is, covering is a personal choice.  But, I think that the suggestion that it is somehow oppressive is correct. Women who come from families that are more modern minded and less fundamentalist about religion tend not to cover.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I get sunburn very easily so covering is not a problem for me. I've also had several hundred of those sunspot thingies burned off as well as several "near things" in the melanoma maybe stakes. But you are a welcome bit of balance on the question. I have ZERO problem with what is worn and I do get that it is a religious thingy but the banning seems to me to be just dumb. I am far more concerned with other apparel; the type that goes kaboom!!
> I do wonder if the burkini is all that oppressive? Seems to me to be a transition garment to "something more comfortable".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Olympic standard
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Burkini
> 
> Hopefully, whatever the VitD prob, it can be easily treated. Mine is.
> 
> Greg
Click to expand...


The problem is not the burkini as such but what it represents.  France has had Muslim people as part of the population for a long time. France is a former imperialist country.  They have been in Morocco, Algiers, etc.  There was never a problem with Muslims being a part of the culture, not in the past. In about 2,000 I stayed in Paris in the Arabic neighborhood simply because I booked my hotel online through Expedia and it was an inexpensive hotel.  I had no problem being in that area or any discomfort.  This was before I had lived in Turkey or other Islamic countries.  But things have changed a lot in recent years.


Nowadays the Muslim population of France is 15%, as large as the black population in America, which is our largest minority.  Most of these Muslims are poor and come to France for economic reasons.  Like other poor people around the world who immigrate, they are not well educated and are usually fundamentalist or conservative as far as religion.  They don't embrace the French culture.  They don't adapt to it but, rather, expect the French to adapt to them.


There have been too many instances of so called Islamic terrorism in France.  I know that is not endorsed by most Muslims, but the French are getting fed up.  They expect immigrants to adapt to them, not the other way around.  Because of the terrorism, they are developing a negative attitude to all Muslims; though it may not be fair, that’s the way it is.


French culture is very sophisticated culturally and very open sexually.  It is very unlike conservative Islam. The Burkini represents a rejection of French culture, a rejection of the culture that the Muslims seek to live in.  It is what the Burkini represents, not what it is specifically. 


I have spent a lot of time in Southern France, including much time on the Mediterranean. I understand the problem.  I sympathize with the French.


----------



## Tilly

gtopa1 said:


> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tilly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I find it odd that there are those who say a woman who wears sluttish clothing contributes to her own rape but that something as sexless as a burkini is deemed improper? Sorry; I don't see any reason to ban the burkini. In fact in a land with the highest melanoma rate in the world I would find them downright sensible!!
> 
> Greg
> 
> 
> 
> In terms of health issues, France doesn't have the rate of melanoma Australia does, nowhere in Europe does. However, vit D deficiency, which eventually results in all sorts of health problems, including osteoporosis and heart disease, is an issue for people who swathe themselves from head to toe even in the summer months. You have to expose quite a bit of skin to make vit D.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It is true: vitamin D deficiency is a serious issue for Muslim women who 'cover.'  Over exposure to the sun is a serious issue for women in the West who spend a lot of time in the sun exposing a lot of skin.  Western women can wear sunscreen.  Islamic women have to get medical treatment for their lack of vitamin D.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why not just take Vitamin D tabs like I do; I hate too much sun.
> 
> Greg
Click to expand...

If you have a proper deficiency large doses are required and it can take a long time to reverse the deficiency. It's not as simple as popping a 400iu pill from Hollande & Barrett's . People taking larger doses have to be monitored because there is a point at which the high dose becomes almost as dangerous as too little, and other health problems arise such as depositing calcium in arteries, so once again, you are at increased risk of heart disease and stroke, for example.
So, this backward faux modesty bs becomes a medical issue, and for many, ie those who were forced to dress like bin bags since they were children, some of the damage is irreversible.
I have read rulings from some imams who basically say fear the wrath of Allah, stop making excuses for not dressing how Allah decrees, pop a pill, and sit by a window. You cannot make vitamin D from sunlight that passes through glass.  Newer research (I will try to find it) indicates that simply exposing hands, feet and face, is not enough to make sufficient vit D, and certainly would do very little to correct even sub clinical deficiencies.


----------



## Esmeralda

Tilly said:


> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tilly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I find it odd that there are those who say a woman who wears sluttish clothing contributes to her own rape but that something as sexless as a burkini is deemed improper? Sorry; I don't see any reason to ban the burkini. In fact in a land with the highest melanoma rate in the world I would find them downright sensible!!
> 
> Greg
> 
> 
> 
> In terms of health issues, France doesn't have the rate of melanoma Australia does, nowhere in Europe does. However, vit D deficiency, which eventually results in all sorts of health problems, including osteoporosis and heart disease, is an issue for people who swathe themselves from head to toe even in the summer months. You have to expose quite a bit of skin to make vit D.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It is true: vitamin D deficiency is a serious issue for Muslim women who 'cover.'  Over exposure to the sun is a serious issue for women in the West who spend a lot of time in the sun exposing a lot of skin.  Western women can wear sunscreen.  Islamic women have to get medical treatment for their lack of vitamin D.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why not just take Vitamin D tabs like I do; I hate too much sun.
> 
> Greg
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If you have a proper deficiency large doses are required and it can take a long time to reverse the deficiency. It's not as simple as popping a 1000iu pill from Hollande & Barrett's . People taking larger doses have to be monitored because there is a point at which the high dose becomes almost as dangerous as too little, and other health problems arise such as depositing calcium in arteries, so once again, you are at increased risk of heart disease and stroke, for example.
> So, this backward faux modesty bs becomes a medical issue, and for many, ie those who were forced to dress like bin bags since they were children, some of the damage is irreversible.
> I have read rulings from some imams who basically say fear the wrath of Allah, stop making excuses for not dressing how Allah decrees, pop a pill, and sit by a window. You cannot make vitamin D from sunlight that passes through glass.  Newer research (I will try to find it) indicates that simply exposing hands, feet and face, is not enough to make sufficient vit D, and certainly would do very little to correct even sub clinical deficiencies.
Click to expand...

I have also read that only exposing hands, feet and face is not enough to have a[ healthy dose of vitamin D.  The issue of covering is a health issue.


----------



## Tilly

I think there is a similar problem in the US, plus, children born to women with vit D deficiency are at increased risk, of course.


*Rickets soar as children stay indoors: Number diagnosed with disease quadruples in last ten years*

*New figures from the NHS show there were 833 hospital admissions*
*Ten years earlier the figure was just 190*
*The disease, which causes brittle bones and deformities, was common in 19th century Britain *
By DAILY MAIL REPORTER

PUBLISHED: 02:02, 22 January 2014 | UPDATED: 02:03, 22 January 2014
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ed-disease-quadruples-ten-years.html#comments





+2
New figures from the NHS show there were 833 hospital admissions for children suffering from rickets

The number of children suffering from rickets – once associated with Victorian poverty – is on the rise, with a fourfold increase in sufferers in the last ten years.

New figures from the NHS show there were 833 hospital admissions for children suffering from the condition which is caused by a lack of Vitamin D in the financial year 2012-13. 

Ten years earlier the figure was just 190.

Some experts fear that parents obsessing about protecting their children from sunlight, which boosts the body’s level of the key vitamin, has led to the rise...

Rickets soar as children stay indoors


----------



## Tilly

Esmeralda said:


> Tilly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tilly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I find it odd that there are those who say a woman who wears sluttish clothing contributes to her own rape but that something as sexless as a burkini is deemed improper? Sorry; I don't see any reason to ban the burkini. In fact in a land with the highest melanoma rate in the world I would find them downright sensible!!
> 
> Greg
> 
> 
> 
> In terms of health issues, France doesn't have the rate of melanoma Australia does, nowhere in Europe does. However, vit D deficiency, which eventually results in all sorts of health problems, including osteoporosis and heart disease, is an issue for people who swathe themselves from head to toe even in the summer months. You have to expose quite a bit of skin to make vit D.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It is true: vitamin D deficiency is a serious issue for Muslim women who 'cover.'  Over exposure to the sun is a serious issue for women in the West who spend a lot of time in the sun exposing a lot of skin.  Western women can wear sunscreen.  Islamic women have to get medical treatment for their lack of vitamin D.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why not just take Vitamin D tabs like I do; I hate too much sun.
> 
> Greg
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If you have a proper deficiency large doses are required and it can take a long time to reverse the deficiency. It's not as simple as popping a 1000iu pill from Hollande & Barrett's . People taking larger doses have to be monitored because there is a point at which the high dose becomes almost as dangerous as too little, and other health problems arise such as depositing calcium in arteries, so once again, you are at increased risk of heart disease and stroke, for example.
> So, this backward faux modesty bs becomes a medical issue, and for many, ie those who were forced to dress like bin bags since they were children, some of the damage is irreversible.
> I have read rulings from some imams who basically say fear the wrath of Allah, stop making excuses for not dressing how Allah decrees, pop a pill, and sit by a window. You cannot make vitamin D from sunlight that passes through glass.  Newer research (I will try to find it) indicates that simply exposing hands, feet and face, is not enough to make sufficient vit D, and certainly would do very little to correct even sub clinical deficiencies.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have also read that only exposing hands, feet and face is not enough to have a[ healthy dose of vitamin D.  The issue of covering is a health issue.
Click to expand...

Also, the darker your skin, the less vit D you make, and the more sun exposure you need. In addition to vit D manufacture, the sun also helps your body produce cholesterol sulphate and D sulphate, important to cardiovascular health. The body can't produce D sulphate from D3, we need sun exposure for that to occur.  Another issue is that D3 is fat soluble, whereas the sulphate form is water soluble, so they can work in different ways. Many Dr's also prescribe D2 - ergocalciferol, which does not have all the same health benefits, and is poorly absorbed and stored by the body, but it's cheaper.


----------



## Coyote

gtopa1 said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> The ones oppressing their women
> 
> 
> 
> Was the woman in the photos being made to remove her clothing in France oppressed?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Post the photo.
> 
> Btw it's hilarious to see you try the petty Alinsky tactics.   It just shows that you really have nothing to offer.   Coyote at least can discuss this topic and not waste our time with Alinsky tactic after tactic
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> French police make woman remove clothing on Nice beach following burkini ban
> 
> 'Alinsky tactics'?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There is zero reason for that lady to be on the beach.   What is she there for?    To sweat?    Nothing like a fat sweaty Muslim woman.
> 
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Fat English women at the beach??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Greg
Click to expand...



Even a burkini won't erase that.....


----------



## Coyote

Alex. said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately that is not accurate.  But keep trying.
> 
> And while you're at it, enlighten us as to why it's somehow progressive to remove free choice from women.
> 
> 
> 
> Right....more like a nightmare.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Oh yes, bring on the 9/11 imagery (as if it's the fault of all the world's Muslims and not a bunch of terrorists) - your use of it in this way cheapens the tragedy.
> 
> In the meantime, enlighten us as to why it's somehow progressive to remove free choice from women.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Your inability to grasp the actual threat and harm it has caused world wide cheapens both the religion your protect the the unfortunate victims who lost their lives.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Threat and harm Islam has caused or the actions of extremists?  Seriously dude - don't use 9/11 imagery as a cheap means to score hate points.
> 
> So allowing women free choice in what they want to wear to the beach causes threat and harm worldwide?
> 
> A nuclear burkini?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I cannot make you understand what is in front of your eyes, what has been demonstrated through history and what is occurring in the world today.
Click to expand...



Enough deflecting and attempting to change the topic - what does 9/11 have to do with women being banned from wearing burkini's?  Ans:  nothing.

You're trying to avoid addressing the core of the issue:  removing free choice from women.


----------



## Coyote

idb said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't confuse a westernized Muslim for one of the crazies.  Majority of the westernized ones don't force this nonsense on their women.
> 
> Europe has a crazy Muslim problem.
> 
> 
> 
> How do you identify the 'crazies' and chase them off the beach?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The ones oppressing their women
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Was the woman in the photos being made to remove her clothing in France oppressed?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Post the photo.
> 
> Btw it's hilarious to see you try the petty Alinsky tactics.   It just shows that you really have nothing to offer.   Coyote at least can discuss this topic and not waste our time with Alinsky tactic after tactic
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> French police make woman remove clothing on Nice beach following burkini ban
> 
> 'Alinsky tactics'?
Click to expand...



That's so wrong.  That is abusive and humiliating to the woman.  I hope she sues them.


----------



## Coyote

StLucieBengal said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok...you decide for her.
> Fair enough...there's no way a woman could have enough free will to make that decision for herself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you have no problems when the victims of DV return home to their abusers?
> 
> You don't consider the years of mental punishment they have experienced that is clouding their judgement?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why the assumption that all Muslim women are abused?  That's ridiculous.  Just for a bit of perspective....
> 
> Modest Swimwear - Custom sized, made to order swimsuits by CoverUpForChrist
> Modest swimwear for ladies & girls | Aqua Modesta
> Modest Swimwear for Girls, Teens & Women by Sea Secret
> 
> Are you going to ban all of these people from enjoying the beach?  Are they all abused?
> 
> Does anyone see how utterly ridiculous this is?  A supposedly free society is suddenly mandating what a woman can wear!  How is that for oppression?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> None of those you posted cover up their heads or below their knees.
> 
> Which is a perfect example that there is conservative alternatives already on the market for the Muslims
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ok, you are now adjusting the goalposts.
> 
> Covering to the knees is "ok", covering below the knees is not.
> 
> So, the poor Jewish girl on the right will get kicked off the beach...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We seem to have this rather arbritrary standard in which to only isolate Muslim women from comfortably swimming, but it looks like that standard will sadly affect other religious groups unless you move the goal posts some more.
> 
> Instead of the Saudi Arabian "Modesty Police" we'll have the western style "Imodesty Police".  Wouldn't it simply be easier to allow women free choice....that's all we've ever wanted
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You mean they girl in the swimwear designed to wear when you surf?
> 
> If the Muslims wanna dress that way then so be it.    I just don't want to see this other nonsense.
> 
> If you want to live In the west then Take your 7th century bs elsewhere .  Leave it at home or don't come.
Click to expand...


So you you think this burkini ban is wrong then?


----------



## Coyote

StLucieBengal said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> That comment is offensive!!!
> 
> Greg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More offensive is that these unwanted hordes come over to the West and try to change our culture when they know we hate it and we know that if we go over there and wear a bikini they might throw us in jail and deport us!
> 
> What is also offensive and stupid is, how many naive Westerners are so quick to call everything which makes sense, offensive!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh for god's sakes, they're just people Skye.  So WHAT if a woman wants to dress more modestly at the beach?  Who CARES if they throw you into jail in Saudi Arabia for wearing a bikini.  This isn't Saudi Arabia and maybe THAT is why those women are here and not THERE, trying to enjoy the beach.  Ever thought of that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> They are bringing the Saudi Arabia lifestyle to the west.  That's the problem .   It wouldn't be a problem if they renounced their crazy behavior and went normal
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Just have to add.  Normal IS NOT thongs and speedos when your belly dunlops the speedo and the thong disappears into...enough said.
> 
> That's crazy behavior...no?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Never said normal was thongs.
> 
> But I can see every woman's head and face.
> 
> Like I said if they want to wear what that surfboard girl you posted before was wearing then that's fine.      It's modest and we can still see who it is....
Click to expand...


Normal is arbritrary and completely dependent on an individual culture's definition of "normal" and "modesty".  

Normal standards usually regulate what is minimally acceptable - what needs to be covered.  It's never been about "too much" with one acception:  clothing issues that adversely affect public safety or one's ability to do certain jobs.  Things involving public safety would be covering the face, masks, hoods etc.  Things involving jobs could be clothing that affects the antiseptic quality of an operating room or could get caught in moving machinary.

None of this applies to what a person chooses to wear  on the beach.  In all of the burkini examples you can see her face.  There is no need to see any more in order to recognize a person.  This law is not about "freeing women" - it's about demeaning and humiliating Muslim women.


----------



## Coyote

gtopa1 said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why the assumption that all Muslim women are abused?  That's ridiculous.  Just for a bit of perspective....
> 
> Modest Swimwear - Custom sized, made to order swimsuits by CoverUpForChrist
> Modest swimwear for ladies & girls | Aqua Modesta
> Modest Swimwear for Girls, Teens & Women by Sea Secret
> 
> Are you going to ban all of these people from enjoying the beach?  Are they all abused?
> 
> Does anyone see how utterly ridiculous this is?  A supposedly free society is suddenly mandating what a woman can wear!  How is that for oppression?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> None of those you posted cover up their heads or below their knees.
> 
> Which is a perfect example that there is conservative alternatives already on the market for the Muslims
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Is that the criteria you'd use to kick women off the beach?
> They mustn't cover their heads or lower legs?
> Just trying to get a handle on the rules here.
> 
> Does it apply to men as well?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Its interesting that you are so hell bent on making sure these women can be forced to be covered head to toe.
> 
> I would rather we dial it back to normal western standards and if they decide to go modest then there are plenty of options.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, I disagree with you telling them that the must dress a certain way.
> They should be able to dress any way they like...why do you want to oppress them?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think that they're trying to liberate them and I accept that. But many of these people are in transition. I suggest that we just be patient. Burkinis are only a recent invention.
> 
> Greg
Click to expand...



Burkini's also allow women who might not otherwise get out to enjoy the beach, out and enjoying the beach.  And what people don't realize, it's not just Muslim women who face this problem and it's not just Muslim women who are impacted by these sorts of decisions.

The challenges of exercising for some Muslim and Orthodox Jewish women


----------



## saveliberty

Because reading the thread seems to be a waste of time and effort, I will simply say that WAS the standard for beach attire back before my time.  Are you going to throw people in street clothes off the beach?


----------



## StLucieBengal

Coyote said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> So you have no problems when the victims of DV return home to their abusers?
> 
> You don't consider the years of mental punishment they have experienced that is clouding their judgement?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why the assumption that all Muslim women are abused?  That's ridiculous.  Just for a bit of perspective....
> 
> Modest Swimwear - Custom sized, made to order swimsuits by CoverUpForChrist
> Modest swimwear for ladies & girls | Aqua Modesta
> Modest Swimwear for Girls, Teens & Women by Sea Secret
> 
> Are you going to ban all of these people from enjoying the beach?  Are they all abused?
> 
> Does anyone see how utterly ridiculous this is?  A supposedly free society is suddenly mandating what a woman can wear!  How is that for oppression?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> None of those you posted cover up their heads or below their knees.
> 
> Which is a perfect example that there is conservative alternatives already on the market for the Muslims
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ok, you are now adjusting the goalposts.
> 
> Covering to the knees is "ok", covering below the knees is not.
> 
> So, the poor Jewish girl on the right will get kicked off the beach...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We seem to have this rather arbritrary standard in which to only isolate Muslim women from comfortably swimming, but it looks like that standard will sadly affect other religious groups unless you move the goal posts some more.
> 
> Instead of the Saudi Arabian "Modesty Police" we'll have the western style "Imodesty Police".  Wouldn't it simply be easier to allow women free choice....that's all we've ever wanted
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You mean they girl in the swimwear designed to wear when you surf?
> 
> If the Muslims wanna dress that way then so be it.    I just don't want to see this other nonsense.
> 
> If you want to live In the west then Take your 7th century bs elsewhere .  Leave it at home or don't come.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So you you think this burkini ban is wrong then?
Click to expand...


No.   The Burkini ban is only temporary and was on direct result from the Muslims waging war on France.    Maybe these supposed good Muslims can denounce the oppressive and violent nature of their religion.    

Or maybe just go to the beach like a normal person and show everyone that Muslims can be just like anyone else.   At the beach not dressed as a black ghost


----------



## Mindful

StLucieBengal said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why the assumption that all Muslim women are abused?  That's ridiculous.  Just for a bit of perspective....
> 
> Modest Swimwear - Custom sized, made to order swimsuits by CoverUpForChrist
> Modest swimwear for ladies & girls | Aqua Modesta
> Modest Swimwear for Girls, Teens & Women by Sea Secret
> 
> Are you going to ban all of these people from enjoying the beach?  Are they all abused?
> 
> Does anyone see how utterly ridiculous this is?  A supposedly free society is suddenly mandating what a woman can wear!  How is that for oppression?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> None of those you posted cover up their heads or below their knees.
> 
> Which is a perfect example that there is conservative alternatives already on the market for the Muslims
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ok, you are now adjusting the goalposts.
> 
> Covering to the knees is "ok", covering below the knees is not.
> 
> So, the poor Jewish girl on the right will get kicked off the beach...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We seem to have this rather arbritrary standard in which to only isolate Muslim women from comfortably swimming, but it looks like that standard will sadly affect other religious groups unless you move the goal posts some more.
> 
> Instead of the Saudi Arabian "Modesty Police" we'll have the western style "Imodesty Police".  Wouldn't it simply be easier to allow women free choice....that's all we've ever wanted
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You mean they girl in the swimwear designed to wear when you surf?
> 
> If the Muslims wanna dress that way then so be it.    I just don't want to see this other nonsense.
> 
> If you want to live In the west then Take your 7th century bs elsewhere .  Leave it at home or don't come.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So you you think this burkini ban is wrong then?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No.   The Burkini ban is only temporary and was on direct result from the Muslims waging war on France.    Maybe these supposed good Muslims can denounce the oppressive and violent nature of their religion.
> 
> Or maybe just go to the beach like a normal person and show everyone that Muslims can be just like anyone else.   At the beach not dressed as a black ghost
Click to expand...


Or they could segregate beaches, as in Tel Aviv.


----------



## StLucieBengal

Coyote said:


> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> None of those you posted cover up their heads or below their knees.
> 
> Which is a perfect example that there is conservative alternatives already on the market for the Muslims
> 
> 
> 
> Is that the criteria you'd use to kick women off the beach?
> They mustn't cover their heads or lower legs?
> Just trying to get a handle on the rules here.
> 
> Does it apply to men as well?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Its interesting that you are so hell bent on making sure these women can be forced to be covered head to toe.
> 
> I would rather we dial it back to normal western standards and if they decide to go modest then there are plenty of options.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, I disagree with you telling them that the must dress a certain way.
> They should be able to dress any way they like...why do you want to oppress them?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think that they're trying to liberate them and I accept that. But many of these people are in transition. I suggest that we just be patient. Burkinis are only a recent invention.
> 
> Greg
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Burkini's also allow women who might not otherwise get out to enjoy the beach, out and enjoying the beach.  And what people don't realize, it's not just Muslim women who face this problem and it's not just Muslim women who are impacted by these sorts of decisions.
> 
> The challenges of exercising for some Muslim and Orthodox Jewish women
Click to expand...



Showing up to the beach in a burqa is a joke.    

Muslims don't need to go burqa.    They can wear a wetsuit or an fat persons moo moo with an old lady hat 

There is no need for the burqa or Burkini.   It's just absurd and unnecessary.   

I love how concerned you are for them to enjoy the beach ....  You said it allows them to go out .   

Why on earth are they not allowed to go out?   Especially if they have free choice....    Or don't they...


----------



## StLucieBengal

Mindful said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> None of those you posted cover up their heads or below their knees.
> 
> Which is a perfect example that there is conservative alternatives already on the market for the Muslims
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, you are now adjusting the goalposts.
> 
> Covering to the knees is "ok", covering below the knees is not.
> 
> So, the poor Jewish girl on the right will get kicked off the beach...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We seem to have this rather arbritrary standard in which to only isolate Muslim women from comfortably swimming, but it looks like that standard will sadly affect other religious groups unless you move the goal posts some more.
> 
> Instead of the Saudi Arabian "Modesty Police" we'll have the western style "Imodesty Police".  Wouldn't it simply be easier to allow women free choice....that's all we've ever wanted
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You mean they girl in the swimwear designed to wear when you surf?
> 
> If the Muslims wanna dress that way then so be it.    I just don't want to see this other nonsense.
> 
> If you want to live In the west then Take your 7th century bs elsewhere .  Leave it at home or don't come.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So you you think this burkini ban is wrong then?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No.   The Burkini ban is only temporary and was on direct result from the Muslims waging war on France.    Maybe these supposed good Muslims can denounce the oppressive and violent nature of their religion.
> 
> Or maybe just go to the beach like a normal person and show everyone that Muslims can be just like anyone else.   At the beach not dressed as a black ghost
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Or they could segregate beaches, as in Tel Aviv.
Click to expand...



Why waste prime beach property on a small group of extremists who oppress woman? 

Should we give private beaches for all small groups of extremists?   I bet the child predators would like to enjoy the beach with children.    Maybe they can share one with the Muslims since they enjoy the same fare.


----------



## StLucieBengal

Coyote said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> How do you identify the 'crazies' and chase them off the beach?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The ones oppressing their women
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Was the woman in the photos being made to remove her clothing in France oppressed?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Post the photo.
> 
> Btw it's hilarious to see you try the petty Alinsky tactics.   It just shows that you really have nothing to offer.   Coyote at least can discuss this topic and not waste our time with Alinsky tactic after tactic
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> French police make woman remove clothing on Nice beach following burkini ban
> 
> 'Alinsky tactics'?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> That's so wrong.  That is abusive and humiliating to the woman.  I hope she sues them.
Click to expand...


What's humiliating to women is that other women are actually promoting for Muslim women to be oppressed further.


----------



## StLucieBengal

Coyote said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> More offensive is that these unwanted hordes come over to the West and try to change our culture when they know we hate it and we know that if we go over there and wear a bikini they might throw us in jail and deport us!
> 
> What is also offensive and stupid is, how many naive Westerners are so quick to call everything which makes sense, offensive!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh for god's sakes, they're just people Skye.  So WHAT if a woman wants to dress more modestly at the beach?  Who CARES if they throw you into jail in Saudi Arabia for wearing a bikini.  This isn't Saudi Arabia and maybe THAT is why those women are here and not THERE, trying to enjoy the beach.  Ever thought of that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> They are bringing the Saudi Arabia lifestyle to the west.  That's the problem .   It wouldn't be a problem if they renounced their crazy behavior and went normal
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Just have to add.  Normal IS NOT thongs and speedos when your belly dunlops the speedo and the thong disappears into...enough said.
> 
> That's crazy behavior...no?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Never said normal was thongs.
> 
> But I can see every woman's head and face.
> 
> Like I said if they want to wear what that surfboard girl you posted before was wearing then that's fine.      It's modest and we can still see who it is....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Normal is arbritrary and completely dependent on an individual culture's definition of "normal" and "modesty".
> 
> Normal standards usually regulate what is minimally acceptable - what needs to be covered.  It's never been about "too much" with one acception:  clothing issues that adversely affect public safety or one's ability to do certain jobs.  Things involving public safety would be covering the face, masks, hoods etc.  Things involving jobs could be clothing that affects the antiseptic quality of an operating room or could get caught in moving machinary.
> 
> None of this applies to what a person chooses to wear  on the beach.  In all of the burkini examples you can see her face.  There is no need to see any more in order to recognize a person.  This law is not about "freeing women" - it's about demeaning and humiliating Muslim women.
Click to expand...



Normal is what we see at the beach in the west.    That's western normal.    When I say normal I am taking about this and you know that...    

Playing word games is just a waste of time and should be beneath any adult trying to discuss this reasonably.


----------



## Coyote

Mindful said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> None of those you posted cover up their heads or below their knees.
> 
> Which is a perfect example that there is conservative alternatives already on the market for the Muslims
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, you are now adjusting the goalposts.
> 
> Covering to the knees is "ok", covering below the knees is not.
> 
> So, the poor Jewish girl on the right will get kicked off the beach...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We seem to have this rather arbritrary standard in which to only isolate Muslim women from comfortably swimming, but it looks like that standard will sadly affect other religious groups unless you move the goal posts some more.
> 
> Instead of the Saudi Arabian "Modesty Police" we'll have the western style "Imodesty Police".  Wouldn't it simply be easier to allow women free choice....that's all we've ever wanted
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You mean they girl in the swimwear designed to wear when you surf?
> 
> If the Muslims wanna dress that way then so be it.    I just don't want to see this other nonsense.
> 
> If you want to live In the west then Take your 7th century bs elsewhere .  Leave it at home or don't come.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So you you think this burkini ban is wrong then?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No.   The Burkini ban is only temporary and was on direct result from the Muslims waging war on France.    Maybe these supposed good Muslims can denounce the oppressive and violent nature of their religion.
> 
> Or maybe just go to the beach like a normal person and show everyone that Muslims can be just like anyone else.   At the beach not dressed as a black ghost
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Or they could segregate beaches, as in Tel Aviv.
Click to expand...


So Jews and Muslims, who wish to cover more parts of their body will have to go special beaches?

This gets weirder and weirder.   Such a free country....for women....


----------



## Coyote

StLucieBengal said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why the assumption that all Muslim women are abused?  That's ridiculous.  Just for a bit of perspective....
> 
> Modest Swimwear - Custom sized, made to order swimsuits by CoverUpForChrist
> Modest swimwear for ladies & girls | Aqua Modesta
> Modest Swimwear for Girls, Teens & Women by Sea Secret
> 
> Are you going to ban all of these people from enjoying the beach?  Are they all abused?
> 
> Does anyone see how utterly ridiculous this is?  A supposedly free society is suddenly mandating what a woman can wear!  How is that for oppression?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> None of those you posted cover up their heads or below their knees.
> 
> Which is a perfect example that there is conservative alternatives already on the market for the Muslims
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ok, you are now adjusting the goalposts.
> 
> Covering to the knees is "ok", covering below the knees is not.
> 
> So, the poor Jewish girl on the right will get kicked off the beach...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We seem to have this rather arbritrary standard in which to only isolate Muslim women from comfortably swimming, but it looks like that standard will sadly affect other religious groups unless you move the goal posts some more.
> 
> Instead of the Saudi Arabian "Modesty Police" we'll have the western style "Imodesty Police".  Wouldn't it simply be easier to allow women free choice....that's all we've ever wanted
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You mean they girl in the swimwear designed to wear when you surf?
> 
> If the Muslims wanna dress that way then so be it.    I just don't want to see this other nonsense.
> 
> If you want to live In the west then Take your 7th century bs elsewhere .  Leave it at home or don't come.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So you you think this burkini ban is wrong then?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No.   The Burkini ban is only temporary and was on direct result from the Muslims waging war on France.    Maybe these supposed good Muslims can denounce the oppressive and violent nature of their religion.
> 
> Or maybe just go to the beach like a normal person and show everyone that Muslims can be just like anyone else.   At the beach not dressed as a black ghost
Click to expand...


The burkini ban is a direct result of xenophobic hatred and effects only innocent people trying to enjoy the beach.  It removes freedom of choice from women in the guise of bringing freedom of choice.


----------



## Coyote

StLucieBengal said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh for god's sakes, they're just people Skye.  So WHAT if a woman wants to dress more modestly at the beach?  Who CARES if they throw you into jail in Saudi Arabia for wearing a bikini.  This isn't Saudi Arabia and maybe THAT is why those women are here and not THERE, trying to enjoy the beach.  Ever thought of that?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They are bringing the Saudi Arabia lifestyle to the west.  That's the problem .   It wouldn't be a problem if they renounced their crazy behavior and went normal
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Just have to add.  Normal IS NOT thongs and speedos when your belly dunlops the speedo and the thong disappears into...enough said.
> 
> That's crazy behavior...no?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Never said normal was thongs.
> 
> But I can see every woman's head and face.
> 
> Like I said if they want to wear what that surfboard girl you posted before was wearing then that's fine.      It's modest and we can still see who it is....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Normal is arbritrary and completely dependent on an individual culture's definition of "normal" and "modesty".
> 
> Normal standards usually regulate what is minimally acceptable - what needs to be covered.  It's never been about "too much" with one acception:  clothing issues that adversely affect public safety or one's ability to do certain jobs.  Things involving public safety would be covering the face, masks, hoods etc.  Things involving jobs could be clothing that affects the antiseptic quality of an operating room or could get caught in moving machinary.
> 
> None of this applies to what a person chooses to wear  on the beach.  In all of the burkini examples you can see her face.  There is no need to see any more in order to recognize a person.  This law is not about "freeing women" - it's about demeaning and humiliating Muslim women.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Normal is what we see at the beach in the west.    That's western normal.    When I say normal I am taking about this and you know that...
> 
> Playing word games is just a waste of time and should be beneath any adult trying to discuss this reasonably.
Click to expand...



That's "your" normal.

But "normal" has NEVER imposed a dress code upon it's western citizens beyond minimal coverage.  This is a new and bizarre "norm" you've suddenly decided to embrace.

People won't be able to wear wetsuits anymore.


----------



## Coyote

StLucieBengal said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, you are now adjusting the goalposts.
> 
> Covering to the knees is "ok", covering below the knees is not.
> 
> So, the poor Jewish girl on the right will get kicked off the beach...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We seem to have this rather arbritrary standard in which to only isolate Muslim women from comfortably swimming, but it looks like that standard will sadly affect other religious groups unless you move the goal posts some more.
> 
> Instead of the Saudi Arabian "Modesty Police" we'll have the western style "Imodesty Police".  Wouldn't it simply be easier to allow women free choice....that's all we've ever wanted
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You mean they girl in the swimwear designed to wear when you surf?
> 
> If the Muslims wanna dress that way then so be it.    I just don't want to see this other nonsense.
> 
> If you want to live In the west then Take your 7th century bs elsewhere .  Leave it at home or don't come.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So you you think this burkini ban is wrong then?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No.   The Burkini ban is only temporary and was on direct result from the Muslims waging war on France.    Maybe these supposed good Muslims can denounce the oppressive and violent nature of their religion.
> 
> Or maybe just go to the beach like a normal person and show everyone that Muslims can be just like anyone else.   At the beach not dressed as a black ghost
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Or they could segregate beaches, as in Tel Aviv.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Why waste prime beach property on a small group of extremists who oppress woman?
> 
> Should we give private beaches for all small groups of extremists?   I bet the child predators would like to enjoy the beach with children.    Maybe they can share one with the Muslims since they enjoy the same fare.
Click to expand...



Which of those women are being oppressed?  Have you talked to any?

You're last comment is pretty disgusting and unnecessary.


----------



## Coyote

StLucieBengal said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is that the criteria you'd use to kick women off the beach?
> They mustn't cover their heads or lower legs?
> Just trying to get a handle on the rules here.
> 
> Does it apply to men as well?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Its interesting that you are so hell bent on making sure these women can be forced to be covered head to toe.
> 
> I would rather we dial it back to normal western standards and if they decide to go modest then there are plenty of options.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, I disagree with you telling them that the must dress a certain way.
> They should be able to dress any way they like...why do you want to oppress them?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think that they're trying to liberate them and I accept that. But many of these people are in transition. I suggest that we just be patient. Burkinis are only a recent invention.
> 
> Greg
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Burkini's also allow women who might not otherwise get out to enjoy the beach, out and enjoying the beach.  And what people don't realize, it's not just Muslim women who face this problem and it's not just Muslim women who are impacted by these sorts of decisions.
> 
> The challenges of exercising for some Muslim and Orthodox Jewish women
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Showing up to the beach in a burqa is a joke.
> 
> Muslims don't need to go burqa.    They can wear a wetsuit or an fat persons moo moo with an old lady hat
> 
> There is no need for the burqa or Burkini.   It's just absurd and unnecessary.
> 
> I love how concerned you are for them to enjoy the beach ....  You said it allows them to go out .
> 
> Why on earth are they not allowed to go out?   Especially if they have free choice....    Or don't they...
Click to expand...



Who is talking about burqa's?  Ans:  no one.  Let's put that strawman to rest.  A burqa completely covers the face, it's a different issue.

You omitted the important part - go out and *enjoy the beach*, while still maintaining their religious views on modesty.   They can swim, wearing a garment that looks almost identical to a wetsuit, even with a hood.  For some reason, you think they should NOT be allowed to do this.  Not Muslims, and presumably not Jews unless you are going to shift the goalposts strategically.

Free choice?  Who's barring whom from freely choosing what they wish to wear within minimal standards of coverage? (no naughty bits).


----------



## StLucieBengal

What American women used to stand for in regards to clothing....  






Now what American women defend....


----------



## Coyote

StLucieBengal said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> The ones oppressing their women
> 
> 
> 
> Was the woman in the photos being made to remove her clothing in France oppressed?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Post the photo.
> 
> Btw it's hilarious to see you try the petty Alinsky tactics.   It just shows that you really have nothing to offer.   Coyote at least can discuss this topic and not waste our time with Alinsky tactic after tactic
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> French police make woman remove clothing on Nice beach following burkini ban
> 
> 'Alinsky tactics'?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> That's so wrong.  That is abusive and humiliating to the woman.  I hope she sues them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What's humiliating to women is that other women are actually promoting for Muslim women to be oppressed further.
Click to expand...


A woman, exercising her free choice, in a free country, to wear what she see's as suitable attire for the beach that meets standards of public decency is set upon by policemen who FORCE her to remove her clothing.  Where is the oppression?


----------



## Coyote

StLucieBengal said:


> What American women used to stand for in regards to clothing....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now what American women defend....




Is a woman who chooses to be a housewife oppressed then?  How about a woman who chooses to wear a long skirt?


----------



## StLucieBengal

Coyote said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its interesting that you are so hell bent on making sure these women can be forced to be covered head to toe.
> 
> I would rather we dial it back to normal western standards and if they decide to go modest then there are plenty of options.
> 
> 
> 
> No, I disagree with you telling them that the must dress a certain way.
> They should be able to dress any way they like...why do you want to oppress them?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think that they're trying to liberate them and I accept that. But many of these people are in transition. I suggest that we just be patient. Burkinis are only a recent invention.
> 
> Greg
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Burkini's also allow women who might not otherwise get out to enjoy the beach, out and enjoying the beach.  And what people don't realize, it's not just Muslim women who face this problem and it's not just Muslim women who are impacted by these sorts of decisions.
> 
> The challenges of exercising for some Muslim and Orthodox Jewish women
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Showing up to the beach in a burqa is a joke.
> 
> Muslims don't need to go burqa.    They can wear a wetsuit or an fat persons moo moo with an old lady hat
> 
> There is no need for the burqa or Burkini.   It's just absurd and unnecessary.
> 
> I love how concerned you are for them to enjoy the beach ....  You said it allows them to go out .
> 
> Why on earth are they not allowed to go out?   Especially if they have free choice....    Or don't they...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Who is talking about burqa's?  Ans:  no one.  Let's put that strawman to rest.  A burqa completely covers the face, it's a different issue.
> 
> You omitted the important part - go out and *enjoy the beach*, while still maintaining their religious views on modesty.   They can swim, wearing a garment that looks almost identical to a wetsuit, even with a hood.  For some reason, you think they should NOT be allowed to do this.  Not Muslims, and presumably not Jews unless you are going to shift the goalposts strategically.
> 
> Free choice?  Who's barring whom from freely choosing what they wish to wear within minimal standards of coverage? (no naughty bits).
Click to expand...



You posted several modesty swimwear options.   The Muslims can use those.   Or wear a wetsuit 

thet can't however they need to push for the burka.    

They are a joke.   And simply don't belong in the western world.    They aren't ready for the west yet.


----------



## Mindful

Coyote said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, you are now adjusting the goalposts.
> 
> Covering to the knees is "ok", covering below the knees is not.
> 
> So, the poor Jewish girl on the right will get kicked off the beach...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We seem to have this rather arbritrary standard in which to only isolate Muslim women from comfortably swimming, but it looks like that standard will sadly affect other religious groups unless you move the goal posts some more.
> 
> Instead of the Saudi Arabian "Modesty Police" we'll have the western style "Imodesty Police".  Wouldn't it simply be easier to allow women free choice....that's all we've ever wanted
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You mean they girl in the swimwear designed to wear when you surf?
> 
> If the Muslims wanna dress that way then so be it.    I just don't want to see this other nonsense.
> 
> If you want to live In the west then Take your 7th century bs elsewhere .  Leave it at home or don't come.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So you you think this burkini ban is wrong then?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No.   The Burkini ban is only temporary and was on direct result from the Muslims waging war on France.    Maybe these supposed good Muslims can denounce the oppressive and violent nature of their religion.
> 
> Or maybe just go to the beach like a normal person and show everyone that Muslims can be just like anyone else.   At the beach not dressed as a black ghost
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Or they could segregate beaches, as in Tel Aviv.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So Jews and Muslims, who wish to cover more parts of their body will have to go special beaches?
> 
> This gets weirder and weirder.   Such a free country....for women....
Click to expand...


How has this topic got on to Jews?


----------



## StLucieBengal

Coyote said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> What American women used to stand for in regards to clothing....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now what American women defend....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is a woman who chooses to be a housewife oppressed then?  How about a woman who chooses to wear a long skirt?
Click to expand...



Is the housewife forced to not speak to any other men?  Are they forced to dress up like a black ghost?   

Can we see their face?   

Funny how all these long skirt religious types have succeeded here for years simply by not hiding their faces or living in fear of not speaking to others.    

Something has to give on the Muslims part.   It's reasonable they let go of some of this nonsense to assimilate and fit into western society.   If they are just going to segregate themselves and not mix into society then there is no point in them coming here.


----------



## StLucieBengal

Mindful said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> You mean they girl in the swimwear designed to wear when you surf?
> 
> If the Muslims wanna dress that way then so be it.    I just don't want to see this other nonsense.
> 
> If you want to live In the west then Take your 7th century bs elsewhere .  Leave it at home or don't come.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you you think this burkini ban is wrong then?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No.   The Burkini ban is only temporary and was on direct result from the Muslims waging war on France.    Maybe these supposed good Muslims can denounce the oppressive and violent nature of their religion.
> 
> Or maybe just go to the beach like a normal person and show everyone that Muslims can be just like anyone else.   At the beach not dressed as a black ghost
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Or they could segregate beaches, as in Tel Aviv.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So Jews and Muslims, who wish to cover more parts of their body will have to go special beaches?
> 
> This gets weirder and weirder.   Such a free country....for women....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How has this topic got on to Jews?
Click to expand...


Because coyote is looking for any group who wears modest clothing and came up with them to generate sympathy for the Muslims position.


----------



## Coyote

It is so strange that the people who claim to MOST advocate for women's freedoms are the one's LEAST advocating it in this thread.

Women's rights and liberation are about freedom to choose.  You want to remove that freedom choice from certain categories of women.

Based on what?  A fallacy - an assumption that all women who wish to dress modestly (as they see it) - are doing so because they are oppressed.  Actually, let me rephrase that, not "all women who wish to dress modestly" but only Muslim women, since you manage to ignore or shift goal posts to accommodate others.

There is no rational argument for taking that choice away from them.  Not minimal standards of decency, not oppression (since I've doubt anyone has talked with these women) and not safety.  You have to argue that a wetsuit is ok, but a more feminine burkini is not - you have to argue that if it doesn't completely cover the lower legs it's ok but if it does it isn't.  You have to argue that a moo-moo is ok, but a burkini is not (I doubt you can swim in a moo moo anyway).  The contortions you go through to justify this ban approaches ridiculous.

*So who is actually doing the oppressing here?*

How dare you remove my choices of how to dress from me if I want to wear something that covers my body completely for ANY reason?  Who's business is it anyway?


----------



## StLucieBengal

After all these years of feminists and protests to not be forced to wear particular clothes ......  Leftists are ready to roll that all back and let the someone else tell women what they have to wear.    

Glad to see the last 50 years was a waste since now leftists are willing to let women's right go back to the 7th century.   

Skin colour > all other things in the mind of a leftist.


----------



## Coyote

StLucieBengal said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> What American women used to stand for in regards to clothing....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now what American women defend....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is a woman who chooses to be a housewife oppressed then?  How about a woman who chooses to wear a long skirt?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Is the housewife forced to not speak to any other men?  Are they forced to dress up like a black ghost?
Click to expand...


Is a Muslim woman forced not to speak to any other men?


Can we see their face?   

Do you think this finalist in the Great British Bakeoff doesn't speak to other men?  Is she dressed like a black ghost? Can you see her face? Shock! Horror! Nadiya, a Muslim woman, might win the Great British Bake Off




> Funny how all these long skirt religious types have succeeded here for years simply by not hiding their faces or living in fear of not speaking to others.



Funny how the woman in the article doesn't look afraid at all.



> Something has to give on the Muslims part.   It's reasonable they let go of some of this nonsense to assimilate and fit into western society.   If they are just going to segregate themselves and not mix into society then there is no point in them coming here.



The only thing that "has to give" when they immigrant to other countries is that they learn the culture of the country, they abide by the countries laws and they be good citizens.  There is NO requirement that they must give up their religion - at least not in free western countries where religious freedom for ALL is valued.


----------



## Coyote

StLucieBengal said:


> After all these years of feminists and protests to not be forced to wear particular clothes ......  Leftists are ready to roll that all back and let the someone else tell women what they have to wear.
> 
> *Glad to see the last 50 years was a waste since now leftists are willing to let women's right go back to the 7th century.   *
> 
> Skin colour > all other things in the mind of a leftist.



Allowing women *to choose what they wish to wear* is going back to the 7th century in women's rights? 

Come on...


----------



## Coyote

StLucieBengal said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> So you you think this burkini ban is wrong then?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No.   The Burkini ban is only temporary and was on direct result from the Muslims waging war on France.    Maybe these supposed good Muslims can denounce the oppressive and violent nature of their religion.
> 
> Or maybe just go to the beach like a normal person and show everyone that Muslims can be just like anyone else.   At the beach not dressed as a black ghost
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Or they could segregate beaches, as in Tel Aviv.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So Jews and Muslims, who wish to cover more parts of their body will have to go special beaches?
> 
> This gets weirder and weirder.   Such a free country....for women....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How has this topic got on to Jews?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because coyote is looking for any group who wears modest clothing and came up with them to generate sympathy for the Muslims position.
Click to expand...


Because Muslims aren't the only demographic who follows conservative traditions of modesty for women.  When you make these laws, you are discrimminating against not just Muslim women, but Orthodox Jewish women.  I realize that is an uncomfortable thought for some - after all, how dare we talk about other groups who want the same rights to wear the clothing of their choice


----------



## Coyote

I'm old enough to remember when we were NOT allowed to wear pants to school.  And then...they allowed "pantsuits" - but not trousers or jeans (and talk about fugly).  I'll be damned if I'm going to allow anyone to tell me what I can or can't wear.


----------



## Mindful

Coyote said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> No.   The Burkini ban is only temporary and was on direct result from the Muslims waging war on France.    Maybe these supposed good Muslims can denounce the oppressive and violent nature of their religion.
> 
> Or maybe just go to the beach like a normal person and show everyone that Muslims can be just like anyone else.   At the beach not dressed as a black ghost
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or they could segregate beaches, as in Tel Aviv.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So Jews and Muslims, who wish to cover more parts of their body will have to go special beaches?
> 
> This gets weirder and weirder.   Such a free country....for women....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How has this topic got on to Jews?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because coyote is looking for any group who wears modest clothing and came up with them to generate sympathy for the Muslims position.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because Muslims aren't the only demographic who follows conservative traditions of modesty for women.  When you make these laws, you are discrimminating against not just Muslim women, but Orthodox Jewish women.  I realize that is an uncomfortable thought for some - after all, how dare we talk about other groups who want the same rights to wear the clothing of their choice
Click to expand...


The issue in this case related only to the South of France beaches, the recent atrocity in Nice, and the law on Burkas in that country.

All these other tangents and wandering off into rhetorical  labyrinths belong in a separate discussion.


----------



## skye

Mindful said:


> How about a Boxini?
> 
> For the Islamic thinking beach babe.




That's the way ^^^^

What burkini or zucchini or pipini.......or cacani  even....

This is the way to go   for  the Sharia Law inclined women  out there!


----------



## gtopa1

Tilly said:


> I think there is a similar problem in the US, plus, children born to women with vit D deficiency are at increased risk, of course.
> 
> 
> *Rickets soar as children stay indoors: Number diagnosed with disease quadruples in last ten years*
> 
> *New figures from the NHS show there were 833 hospital admissions*
> *Ten years earlier the figure was just 190*
> *The disease, which causes brittle bones and deformities, was common in 19th century Britain *
> By DAILY MAIL REPORTER
> 
> PUBLISHED: 02:02, 22 January 2014 | UPDATED: 02:03, 22 January 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +2
> New figures from the NHS show there were 833 hospital admissions for children suffering from rickets
> 
> The number of children suffering from rickets – once associated with Victorian poverty – is on the rise, with a fourfold increase in sufferers in the last ten years.
> 
> New figures from the NHS show there were 833 hospital admissions for children suffering from the condition which is caused by a lack of Vitamin D in the financial year 2012-13.
> 
> Ten years earlier the figure was just 190.
> 
> Some experts fear that parents obsessing about protecting their children from sunlight, which boosts the body’s level of the key vitamin, has led to the rise...
> 
> Rickets soar as children stay indoors




Some interesting data here.

Office of Dietary Supplements - Vitamin D

Eat more VitD.

Greg


----------



## Mindful

Nadiya  did win the Bakeoff.

So what?


----------



## Mindful

gtopa1 said:


> Tilly said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think there is a similar problem in the US, plus, children born to women with vit D deficiency are at increased risk, of course.
> 
> 
> *Rickets soar as children stay indoors: Number diagnosed with disease quadruples in last ten years*
> 
> *New figures from the NHS show there were 833 hospital admissions*
> *Ten years earlier the figure was just 190*
> *The disease, which causes brittle bones and deformities, was common in 19th century Britain *
> By DAILY MAIL REPORTER
> 
> PUBLISHED: 02:02, 22 January 2014 | UPDATED: 02:03, 22 January 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +2
> New figures from the NHS show there were 833 hospital admissions for children suffering from rickets
> 
> The number of children suffering from rickets – once associated with Victorian poverty – is on the rise, with a fourfold increase in sufferers in the last ten years.
> 
> New figures from the NHS show there were 833 hospital admissions for children suffering from the condition which is caused by a lack of Vitamin D in the financial year 2012-13.
> 
> Ten years earlier the figure was just 190.
> 
> Some experts fear that parents obsessing about protecting their children from sunlight, which boosts the body’s level of the key vitamin, has led to the rise...
> 
> Rickets soar as children stay indoors
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some interesting data here.
> 
> Office of Dietary Supplements - Vitamin D
> 
> Eat more VitD.
> 
> Greg
Click to expand...


I heard that despite sun exposure, you can still be deficient in it.

Something to do with the body not being able to absorb sunlight efficiently.


----------



## skye

Coyote said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> More offensive is that these unwanted hordes come over to the West and try to change our culture when they know we hate it and we know that if we go over there and wear a bikini they might throw us in jail and deport us!
> 
> What is also offensive and stupid is, how many naive Westerners are so quick to call everything which makes sense, offensive!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh for god's sakes, they're just people Skye.  So WHAT if a woman wants to dress more modestly at the beach?  Who CARES if they throw you into jail in Saudi Arabia for wearing a bikini.  This isn't Saudi Arabia and maybe THAT is why those women are here and not THERE, trying to enjoy the beach.  Ever thought of that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You miss the point.
> 
> The reason these women dress "modestly" as you call it, is because their religion ordains it.
> 
> Whether you like it or not, we are at war with fundamental Islam, and we don't want to be constantly reminded of these facts by their powerful symbols of their brutal 7th century religion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Religions "ordain" many things.  Is the fact that Orthodox Jewish women keep their bodies and hair covered a "powerful symbol of their brutal 7th century religion" (though, it's much older than that)...or...is it free choice?
> 
> I'm sorry you do not like seeing women exercising their freedom of choice in a supposedly free western country.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How can you possibly compare Judaism to Islam?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Easy.  They're both religions.  Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow.  In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles.  Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Judaism?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Islam?  Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As mentioned fundamental  Islam is the  religion   that ordains jihad against the non believers by any means which at the moment means terrorism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So why should we   and the French  people not be upset when these Islamic symbols  are constantly being forced upon us.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who forced you to wear a burkini?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's got nothing to do at all with women's freedom of choice. It all about NOT SUBMITTING TO ISLAM.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...let's get this straight.  You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's quite surprising that feminists don't acknowledge how brutally women are treated in Islam.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are not discussing feminist rights but about trying to stop the spread of this alien culture whose purpose is to take over the host country like a virus.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?
> 
> Geez.  So much for freedom.
Click to expand...



Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.

We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.

The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.

Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.

There is no point in carrying on and talking any  more   about feminist and women's  rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.

This is a different topic entirely.


----------



## StLucieBengal

Mindful said:


> How about a Boxini?
> 
> For the Islamic thinking beach babe.



Infidel .... Shows too much skin for the prophet.   

This much exposed skin could incite a Muslim to rape.


----------



## Tilly

gtopa1 said:


> Tilly said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think there is a similar problem in the US, plus, children born to women with vit D deficiency are at increased risk, of course.
> 
> 
> *Rickets soar as children stay indoors: Number diagnosed with disease quadruples in last ten years*
> 
> *New figures from the NHS show there were 833 hospital admissions*
> *Ten years earlier the figure was just 190*
> *The disease, which causes brittle bones and deformities, was common in 19th century Britain *
> By DAILY MAIL REPORTER
> 
> PUBLISHED: 02:02, 22 January 2014 | UPDATED: 02:03, 22 January 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +2
> New figures from the NHS show there were 833 hospital admissions for children suffering from rickets
> 
> The number of children suffering from rickets – once associated with Victorian poverty – is on the rise, with a fourfold increase in sufferers in the last ten years.
> 
> New figures from the NHS show there were 833 hospital admissions for children suffering from the condition which is caused by a lack of Vitamin D in the financial year 2012-13.
> 
> Ten years earlier the figure was just 190.
> 
> Some experts fear that parents obsessing about protecting their children from sunlight, which boosts the body’s level of the key vitamin, has led to the rise...
> 
> Rickets soar as children stay indoors
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some interesting data here.
> 
> Office of Dietary Supplements - Vitamin D
> 
> Eat more VitD.
> 
> Greg
Click to expand...

You cannot get enough vit D from food if you have a deficiency.


----------



## StLucieBengal

Coyote said:


> I'm old enough to remember when we were NOT allowed to wear pants to school.  And then...they allowed "pantsuits" - but not trousers or jeans (and talk about fugly).  I'll be damned if I'm going to allow anyone to tell me what I can or can't wear.



Well if you wish to talk fashion we can go there in another thread.    Personally when women stopped dressing as women is where we lost the plot.    

Too bad we don't see women wearing a dress much anymore.   Now it's all super casual to the point that we see pajama pants at the supermarket.  

Women are beautiful specimens and it's a shame they waste that beauty by dressing like a man or a hobo.


----------



## Zander

Don't ban the burkhini, ban the people that wear them.


----------



## Tilly

skye said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh for god's sakes, they're just people Skye.  So WHAT if a woman wants to dress more modestly at the beach?  Who CARES if they throw you into jail in Saudi Arabia for wearing a bikini.  This isn't Saudi Arabia and maybe THAT is why those women are here and not THERE, trying to enjoy the beach.  Ever thought of that?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You miss the point.
> 
> The reason these women dress "modestly" as you call it, is because their religion ordains it.
> 
> Whether you like it or not, we are at war with fundamental Islam, and we don't want to be constantly reminded of these facts by their powerful symbols of their brutal 7th century religion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Religions "ordain" many things.  Is the fact that Orthodox Jewish women keep their bodies and hair covered a "powerful symbol of their brutal 7th century religion" (though, it's much older than that)...or...is it free choice?
> 
> I'm sorry you do not like seeing women exercising their freedom of choice in a supposedly free western country.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How can you possibly compare Judaism to Islam?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Easy.  They're both religions.  Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow.  In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles.  Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Judaism?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Islam?  Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As mentioned fundamental  Islam is the  religion   that ordains jihad against the non believers by any means which at the moment means terrorism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So why should we   and the French  people not be upset when these Islamic symbols  are constantly being forced upon us.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who forced you to wear a burkini?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's got nothing to do at all with women's freedom of choice. It all about NOT SUBMITTING TO ISLAM.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...let's get this straight.  You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's quite surprising that feminists don't acknowledge how brutally women are treated in Islam.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are not discussing feminist rights but about trying to stop the spread of this alien culture whose purpose is to take over the host country like a virus.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?
> 
> Geez.  So much for freedom.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.
> 
> We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.
> 
> The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.
> 
> Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.
> 
> There is no point in carrying on and talking any  more   about feminist and women's  rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.
> 
> This is a different topic entirely.
Click to expand...

She is missing the point on purpose, as usual. A recent poll in France showed only 6% support women wearing the burkini. It's not difficult to understand why it's an issue in SECULAR France, as you say.


----------



## StLucieBengal

Tilly said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> You miss the point.
> 
> The reason these women dress "modestly" as you call it, is because their religion ordains it.
> 
> Whether you like it or not, we are at war with fundamental Islam, and we don't want to be constantly reminded of these facts by their powerful symbols of their brutal 7th century religion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Religions "ordain" many things.  Is the fact that Orthodox Jewish women keep their bodies and hair covered a "powerful symbol of their brutal 7th century religion" (though, it's much older than that)...or...is it free choice?
> 
> I'm sorry you do not like seeing women exercising their freedom of choice in a supposedly free western country.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How can you possibly compare Judaism to Islam?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Easy.  They're both religions.  Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow.  In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles.  Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Judaism?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Islam?  Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As mentioned fundamental  Islam is the  religion   that ordains jihad against the non believers by any means which at the moment means terrorism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So why should we   and the French  people not be upset when these Islamic symbols  are constantly being forced upon us.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who forced you to wear a burkini?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's got nothing to do at all with women's freedom of choice. It all about NOT SUBMITTING TO ISLAM.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...let's get this straight.  You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's quite surprising that feminists don't acknowledge how brutally women are treated in Islam.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are not discussing feminist rights but about trying to stop the spread of this alien culture whose purpose is to take over the host country like a virus.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?
> 
> Geez.  So much for freedom.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.
> 
> We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.
> 
> The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.
> 
> Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.
> 
> There is no point in carrying on and talking any  more   about feminist and women's  rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.
> 
> This is a different topic entirely.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> She is missing the point on purpose, as usual. A recent poll in France showed only 6% support women wearing the burkini. It's not difficult to understand why it's an issue in SECULAR France, as you say.
Click to expand...


Based on recent history France Should be the toughest country on Islam.   

Reasonable they banned the Burkini.   They should also ban the burqa and enforce the law that doesn't allow praying in the streets.


----------



## Tilly

StLucieBengal said:


> Tilly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Religions "ordain" many things.  Is the fact that Orthodox Jewish women keep their bodies and hair covered a "powerful symbol of their brutal 7th century religion" (though, it's much older than that)...or...is it free choice?
> 
> I'm sorry you do not like seeing women exercising their freedom of choice in a supposedly free western country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How can you possibly compare Judaism to Islam?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Easy.  They're both religions.  Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow.  In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles.  Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Judaism?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Islam?  Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As mentioned fundamental  Islam is the  religion   that ordains jihad against the non believers by any means which at the moment means terrorism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So why should we   and the French  people not be upset when these Islamic symbols  are constantly being forced upon us.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who forced you to wear a burkini?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's got nothing to do at all with women's freedom of choice. It all about NOT SUBMITTING TO ISLAM.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...let's get this straight.  You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's quite surprising that feminists don't acknowledge how brutally women are treated in Islam.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are not discussing feminist rights but about trying to stop the spread of this alien culture whose purpose is to take over the host country like a virus.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?
> 
> Geez.  So much for freedom.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.
> 
> We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.
> 
> The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.
> 
> Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.
> 
> There is no point in carrying on and talking any  more   about feminist and women's  rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.
> 
> This is a different topic entirely.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> She is missing the point on purpose, as usual. A recent poll in France showed only 6% support women wearing the burkini. It's not difficult to understand why it's an issue in SECULAR France, as you say.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Based on recent history France Should be the toughest country on Islam.
> 
> Reasonable they banned the Burkini.   They should also ban the burqa and enforce the law that doesn't allow praying in the streets.
Click to expand...

They have banned all face coverings in public places, in 2009 I think.
Both Sarkozy and the Front National have now promised that the burkini will be banned nationally, even if they have to alter the constitution to do so. Since the Left being re-elected is looking more unlikely every day, unless something totally unpredictable happens, there will be a right wing gvmnt in France next year, and the burkini will go the way of the burka and niqab in France. Vive La France


----------



## Tilly

Mindful said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> You mean they girl in the swimwear designed to wear when you surf?
> 
> If the Muslims wanna dress that way then so be it.    I just don't want to see this other nonsense.
> 
> If you want to live In the west then Take your 7th century bs elsewhere .  Leave it at home or don't come.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you you think this burkini ban is wrong then?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No.   The Burkini ban is only temporary and was on direct result from the Muslims waging war on France.    Maybe these supposed good Muslims can denounce the oppressive and violent nature of their religion.
> 
> Or maybe just go to the beach like a normal person and show everyone that Muslims can be just like anyone else.   At the beach not dressed as a black ghost
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Or they could segregate beaches, as in Tel Aviv.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So Jews and Muslims, who wish to cover more parts of their body will have to go special beaches?
> 
> This gets weirder and weirder.   Such a free country....for women....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How has this topic got on to Jews?
Click to expand...

Doesn't it always? ;-)


----------



## Tilly

A French woman's perspective:


*Why should France accept the burkini? Its time to debate integration head-on*

MURIEL DEMARCUS
30 AUGUST 2016 • 1:36PM

The burkini ban in my home country (I am a French woman living in London) has made headlines for most of August.  Despite the fact that it has eventually been overturned by the highest French court, the debate is far from over. Journalists have had a field day mocking what they see as an attack against personal freedoms, and keep mentioning that the rightwing in France still supports the ban. What a simplistic view of the situation!

According to various polls, two thirds of the French population supported the ban, and this included the socialist French Prime Minister, Manuel Valls, who famously said that that the full-body swimsuit symbolised the enslavement of women. So what is this really about? I got tired of reading analysis that, in my view, only gave a partial side of the issue, so here is my (very French) take on it.

First of all, France is a secular country. Obviously, France is not the only Western country to insist on the separation of church and state – but I believe that it does so more militantly than any other. To an extent, you could say that secularism is the closest thing we French have to a state religion. It underpinned the French Revolution and has been a foundation of the country's progressive thought for centuries. The law of separation meant strict official neutrality in religious affairs. The Republic has always recognised individuals, rather than groups: this means that you are supposed to be French first, then Muslim, or Catholic, or whatever your religion or ethnic minority might be. You therefore need to comply with the law even if it goes against your religious beliefs, because secularism prevails in all circumstances.  Although it can be carried to extremes that other countries don’t understand, this view of citizenship is fundamentally non-discriminatory and inclusive. It’s all about finding a common ground, whatever your religion. Burkini bans must be viewed in this context, and are nothing new.

Rightly or wrongly, French citizens are scared of the Islamisation of their society. Obviously the latest attacks in Nice have further polarised an already divided population. The population is still traumatised, and believes that things have become worse over the last decade or so: people see more veiled women on the street, and are shocked to see a few niqabs or burkas from time to time, despite a full ban. This is compounded by the fact that young women are more and more targeted by some members of the Muslim community on the issue of modesty. For instance, last year in Reims a young woman sunbathing in a public park was set upon by a gang of teenage girls. They objected to her bikini, and the town’s authorities were fast to insist there was no religious aspect to the attack. Nobody believed them.

I belong to a generation that never saw a burkini or a full-body swimsuit at the beach before this summer’s events. This is clearly a new occurrence. The French also are shocked to learn that France is now home to thousands of Islamic radicals. Citizens feel that enough ground has been ceded to minorities in general, and to the Muslim minorities in particular. They think that things have now come to a head, and learned the hard way that political correctness doesn’t work. Furthermore, the French don’t understand why their women should cover up when they visit some Muslim country, but let women wear a veil or a burkini when they visit France. In short, they don’t understand why they should compromise when other countries don’t. It’s all about "my country, my rules".

Then again, I keep reading that the burkini is empowering for Muslim women who wouldn’t be able to go to the beach otherwise. I am struggling with such a point. Just look at the 1950s and 1960s photos of women in modern, comfortable clothes in Afghanistan or Egypt. They clearly were not forced to succumb to the new wave of stricter Islamic dress code. What changed? Why should women suddenly cover up? Islam seems to have been hijacked, and women are, once again, the first hostages. Why should women sympathise with the hijackers? Isn’t this a classic case of Stockholm syndrome?





Egyptian leader Gamal Abdul Nasser with his family in the 1960s CREDIT: AFP/GETTY
And what’s next? Should we also allow FGM to be respectful of different cultural practices? What about polygamy? In short, Western societies need to define what’s acceptable for them, and what’s not. There is a need to draw a line, and maybe the French have drawn it at the burkini. Is it futile? Maybe. But at least a social debate is starting. It’s a debate that societies simply can’t avoid forever.  Whether we like it or not, society must have a clear set of "inclusiveness principles", and it’s probably better to face the issue rather than ignore it.

Don’t get me wrong, if covering up was simply a matter of personal style I would be all for it. But let’s be honest: it’s fairly easy to see whether women cover up for religious reasons or not (for starters women would get a hat, not a veil). What makes me angry is when I am out in blistering heat, and I see a family at the beach with kids in bathing suits, the dad in swimming trunks, and the mum covered in black from head to toe. It’s modest and it’s for religious reasons, but those reasons clearly seem oppressive and unfair. I can’t understand why a husband would want his wife to wear this. And don’t even try to swim in such an attire.

In the end, the burkini and some other Islamic dresses are less innocuous than they seem. It has to do with an explicit inequality between genders, which is unacceptable under French law. Let’s face it: we already have far too many of such inequalities…So why should the French accept this one? And let’s not forget that Syrian women burnt burqas in celebration after being freed from Isil. In the meantime, in France, more Muslim women are peer-pressured to wear the veil or the burkini. This seems rather counter-intuitive.

In conclusion, it’s time to go back, understand and reinforce the principles that underpin our democracies. Integration is a two-way street. Was the ban the best way to deal with the issue? Probably not. But I sincerely hope that it will start a much-needed social debate, in France and anywhere else.

Why should France accept the burkini? Its time to debate integration head-on


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## StLucieBengal

Tilly said:


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> How can you possibly compare Judaism to Islam?
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> Easy.  They're both religions.  Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow.  In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles.  Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.
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> Since when are we at war with Judaism?
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> Since when are we at war with Islam?  Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.
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> As mentioned fundamental  Islam is the  religion   that ordains jihad against the non believers by any means which at the moment means terrorism.
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> Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.
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> So why should we   and the French  people not be upset when these Islamic symbols  are constantly being forced upon us.
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> Click to expand...
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> Who forced you to wear a burkini?
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> 
> It's got nothing to do at all with women's freedom of choice. It all about NOT SUBMITTING TO ISLAM.
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> Click to expand...
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> So...let's get this straight.  You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?
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> 
> It's quite surprising that feminists don't acknowledge how brutally women are treated in Islam.
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> Click to expand...
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> Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.
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> 
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> We are not discussing feminist rights but about trying to stop the spread of this alien culture whose purpose is to take over the host country like a virus.
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> Click to expand...
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> So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?
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> Geez.  So much for freedom.
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> Click to expand...
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> 
> Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.
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> We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.
> 
> The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.
> 
> Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.
> 
> There is no point in carrying on and talking any  more   about feminist and women's  rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.
> 
> This is a different topic entirely.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> She is missing the point on purpose, as usual. A recent poll in France showed only 6% support women wearing the burkini. It's not difficult to understand why it's an issue in SECULAR France, as you say.
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> Click to expand...
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> Based on recent history France Should be the toughest country on Islam.
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> Reasonable they banned the Burkini.   They should also ban the burqa and enforce the law that doesn't allow praying in the streets.
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> Click to expand...
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> They have banned all face coverings in public places, in 2009 I think.
> Both Sarkozy and the Front National have now promised that the burkini will be banned nationally, even if they have to alter the constitution to do so. Since the Left being re-elected is looking more unlikely every day, unless something totally unpredictable happens, there will be a right wing gvmnt in France next year, and the burkini will go the way of the burka and niqab in France. Vive La France
Click to expand...


If that's the case then look for them to have a referendum on the EU as well. As well as a currency ref.      

The French future is so bright they gotta wear shades.


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## Coyote

skye said:


> Coyote said:
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> skye said:
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> Coyote said:
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> Oh for god's sakes, they're just people Skye.  So WHAT if a woman wants to dress more modestly at the beach?  Who CARES if they throw you into jail in Saudi Arabia for wearing a bikini.  This isn't Saudi Arabia and maybe THAT is why those women are here and not THERE, trying to enjoy the beach.  Ever thought of that?
> 
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> You miss the point.
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> The reason these women dress "modestly" as you call it, is because their religion ordains it.
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> Whether you like it or not, we are at war with fundamental Islam, and we don't want to be constantly reminded of these facts by their powerful symbols of their brutal 7th century religion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Religions "ordain" many things.  Is the fact that Orthodox Jewish women keep their bodies and hair covered a "powerful symbol of their brutal 7th century religion" (though, it's much older than that)...or...is it free choice?
> 
> I'm sorry you do not like seeing women exercising their freedom of choice in a supposedly free western country.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How can you possibly compare Judaism to Islam?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Easy.  They're both religions.  Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow.  In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles.  Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Judaism?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Islam?  Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As mentioned fundamental  Islam is the  religion   that ordains jihad against the non believers by any means which at the moment means terrorism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So why should we   and the French  people not be upset when these Islamic symbols  are constantly being forced upon us.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who forced you to wear a burkini?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's got nothing to do at all with women's freedom of choice. It all about NOT SUBMITTING TO ISLAM.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...let's get this straight.  You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's quite surprising that feminists don't acknowledge how brutally women are treated in Islam.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are not discussing feminist rights but about trying to stop the spread of this alien culture whose purpose is to take over the host country like a virus.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?
> 
> Geez.  So much for freedom.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.
> 
> *We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.*
Click to expand...


Actually, the dress code is not necessarily part of "radicalism" - that's where you're off.  What you are insisting on is that woman must bare their bodies in defiance of their beliefs because their dress OFFENDS you and you don't want to see anyone who is visibly Muslim.



> The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.
> 
> Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.
> 
> *There is no point in carrying on and talking any  more   about feminist and women's  rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.*
> 
> This is a different topic entirely.



Feminism and OPPRESSION of women was part of the discussion from the beginning and one of the rationales used - you must have missed that part.

When citizens of a free and open country accept laws and limitations to their freedom - for example, like the Patriot Act in the US - it's done so for reasons national security or public safety or standards of decency.  It's not done because people are offended by the site of Muslim woman who chooses to dress according to her religion.  *It's especially not done in such a way that explicitly discriminates against one religion, even when other religions impose similar dress codes on their followers*.

I'm just wondering what makes this any different then laws in far less open and free countries that mandate a woman completely cover herself in a garment resembling an oversized trash bag.  The truth is there is no difference - you're removing from the woman, her right to choose and mandating that she must wear what you think is appropriate.

 "Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd.


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## skye

Coyote says

"Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd.
"


What do you mean by that


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## skye

Coyote said:


> skye said:
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> Coyote said:
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> skye said:
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> Coyote said:
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> skye said:
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> 
> 
> You miss the point.
> 
> The reason these women dress "modestly" as you call it, is because their religion ordains it.
> 
> Whether you like it or not, we are at war with fundamental Islam, and we don't want to be constantly reminded of these facts by their powerful symbols of their brutal 7th century religion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Religions "ordain" many things.  Is the fact that Orthodox Jewish women keep their bodies and hair covered a "powerful symbol of their brutal 7th century religion" (though, it's much older than that)...or...is it free choice?
> 
> I'm sorry you do not like seeing women exercising their freedom of choice in a supposedly free western country.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How can you possibly compare Judaism to Islam?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Easy.  They're both religions.  Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow.  In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles.  Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Judaism?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Islam?  Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As mentioned fundamental  Islam is the  religion   that ordains jihad against the non believers by any means which at the moment means terrorism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So why should we   and the French  people not be upset when these Islamic symbols  are constantly being forced upon us.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who forced you to wear a burkini?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's got nothing to do at all with women's freedom of choice. It all about NOT SUBMITTING TO ISLAM.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...let's get this straight.  You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's quite surprising that feminists don't acknowledge how brutally women are treated in Islam.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are not discussing feminist rights but about trying to stop the spread of this alien culture whose purpose is to take over the host country like a virus.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?
> 
> Geez.  So much for freedom.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.
> 
> *We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Actually, the dress code is not necessarily part of "radicalism" - that's where you're off.  What you are insisting on is that woman must bare their bodies in defiance of their beliefs because their dress OFFENDS you and you don't want to see anyone who is visibly Muslim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.
> 
> Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.
> 
> *There is no point in carrying on and talking any  more   about feminist and women's  rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.*
> 
> This is a different topic entirely.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Feminism and OPPRESSION of women was part of the discussion from the beginning and one of the rationales used - you must have missed that part.
> 
> When citizens of a free and open country accept laws and limitations to their freedom - for example, like the Patriot Act in the US - it's done so for reasons national security or public safety or standards of decency.  It's not done because people are offended by the site of Muslim woman who chooses to dress according to her religion.  *It's especially not done in such a way that explicitly discriminates against one religion, even when other religions impose similar dress codes on their followers*.
> 
> I'm just wondering what makes this any different then laws in far less open and free countries that mandate a woman completely cover herself in a garment resembling an oversized trash bag.  The truth is there is no difference - you're removing from the woman, her right to choose and mandating that she must wear what you think is appropriate.
> 
> "Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd.
Click to expand...



I have tried to explain to you the reasons why these Islamic women's clothes are offensive, disturbing and even frightening for people  in many Western countries. For example in nine European countries there is talk of banning them to some extent.

Once again the reasons are to do with the expression of Islamic fundamentalism and  even defiance caused by wearing them.

It's got nothing to do with the patriot act in the US whatsoever.....patriot act? WTF?

If a country like France chooses to pass a law banning the wearing of the burkini it is totally entitled  to do so   and more power to them!  There is no point babbling on about feminist rights regarding freedom of what to wear.

It is not up to a Muslim woman to maintain that  she must obey fundamental Islam or Sharia Law in her new country.

She must be expected to fit in with the French Law instead of the French Law and Culture being expected to fit in with her and with the Islamic way of doing things.

You seem to be very inclined to defend the rights of these Muslim fundamentalists women.....who enjoy more rights, freedoms and a much superior way of life than they ever could have   imagine  in their home countries where they are often subjected to horrible treatment as you must know.

Why don't you go over to an Arab  country and see what you can do about allowing them freedom of dress and allowing them to wear the burkini.

The end result would be at best you would be thrown into prison and deported or at worst something really horrible would happen to you.

If you are really so intent on protecting the freedoms of the Muslim women you should really think about  going there to these Arab countries,where your constant demands for women's freedom would be much more appreciate  and appropriate.




By the way, your channeling claim is completely wrong and offensive.


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## Coyote

Tilly said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
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> 
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> Coyote said:
> 
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> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> You miss the point.
> 
> The reason these women dress "modestly" as you call it, is because their religion ordains it.
> 
> Whether you like it or not, we are at war with fundamental Islam, and we don't want to be constantly reminded of these facts by their powerful symbols of their brutal 7th century religion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Religions "ordain" many things.  Is the fact that Orthodox Jewish women keep their bodies and hair covered a "powerful symbol of their brutal 7th century religion" (though, it's much older than that)...or...is it free choice?
> 
> I'm sorry you do not like seeing women exercising their freedom of choice in a supposedly free western country.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How can you possibly compare Judaism to Islam?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Easy.  They're both religions.  Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow.  In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles.  Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Judaism?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Islam?  Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As mentioned fundamental  Islam is the  religion   that ordains jihad against the non believers by any means which at the moment means terrorism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So why should we   and the French  people not be upset when these Islamic symbols  are constantly being forced upon us.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who forced you to wear a burkini?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's got nothing to do at all with women's freedom of choice. It all about NOT SUBMITTING TO ISLAM.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...let's get this straight.  You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's quite surprising that feminists don't acknowledge how brutally women are treated in Islam.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are not discussing feminist rights but about trying to stop the spread of this alien culture whose purpose is to take over the host country like a virus.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?
> 
> Geez.  So much for freedom.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.
> 
> We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.
> 
> The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.
> 
> Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.
> 
> There is no point in carrying on and talking any  more   about feminist and women's  rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.
> 
> This is a different topic entirely.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> She is missing the point on purpose, as usual. A recent poll in France showed only 6% support women wearing the burkini. It's not difficult to understand why it's an issue in SECULAR France, as you say.
Click to expand...


You are being an idiot, as usual.  Its about free choice.  No one is forcing a woman to wear it and no one is forcing a woman to not wear it.  It's a free country.  In theory.  That 6% who support it can wear it.  No one else has to


skye said:


> Coyote said:
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> skye said:
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> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Religions "ordain" many things.  Is the fact that Orthodox Jewish women keep their bodies and hair covered a "powerful symbol of their brutal 7th century religion" (though, it's much older than that)...or...is it free choice?
> 
> I'm sorry you do not like seeing women exercising their freedom of choice in a supposedly free western country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How can you possibly compare Judaism to Islam?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Easy.  They're both religions.  Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow.  In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles.  Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Judaism?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Islam?  Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As mentioned fundamental  Islam is the  religion   that ordains jihad against the non believers by any means which at the moment means terrorism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So why should we   and the French  people not be upset when these Islamic symbols  are constantly being forced upon us.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who forced you to wear a burkini?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's got nothing to do at all with women's freedom of choice. It all about NOT SUBMITTING TO ISLAM.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...let's get this straight.  You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's quite surprising that feminists don't acknowledge how brutally women are treated in Islam.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are not discussing feminist rights but about trying to stop the spread of this alien culture whose purpose is to take over the host country like a virus.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?
> 
> Geez.  So much for freedom.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.
> 
> *We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Actually, the dress code is not necessarily part of "radicalism" - that's where you're off.  What you are insisting on is that woman must bare their bodies in defiance of their beliefs because their dress OFFENDS you and you don't want to see anyone who is visibly Muslim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.
> 
> Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.
> 
> *There is no point in carrying on and talking any  more   about feminist and women's  rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.*
> 
> This is a different topic entirely.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Feminism and OPPRESSION of women was part of the discussion from the beginning and one of the rationales used - you must have missed that part.
> 
> When citizens of a free and open country accept laws and limitations to their freedom - for example, like the Patriot Act in the US - it's done so for reasons national security or public safety or standards of decency.  It's not done because people are offended by the site of Muslim woman who chooses to dress according to her religion.  *It's especially not done in such a way that explicitly discriminates against one religion, even when other religions impose similar dress codes on their followers*.
> 
> I'm just wondering what makes this any different then laws in far less open and free countries that mandate a woman completely cover herself in a garment resembling an oversized trash bag.  The truth is there is no difference - you're removing from the woman, her right to choose and mandating that she must wear what you think is appropriate.
> 
> "Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd.
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I have tried to explain to you the reasons why these Islamic women's clothes are offensive, disturbing and even frightening for people  in many Western countries. For example in nine European countries there is talk of banning them to some extent.
> 
> Once again the reasons are to do with the expression of Islamic fundamentalism and  even defiance caused by wearing them.
> 
> It's got nothing to do with the patriot act in the US whatsoever.....patriot act? WTF?
> 
> If a country like France chooses to pass a law banning the wearing of the burkini it is totally entitled  to do so   and more power to them!  There is no point babbling on about feminist rights regarding freedom of what to wear.
> 
> It is not up to a Muslim woman to maintain that  she must obey fundamental Islam or Sharia Law in her new country.
> 
> She must be expected to fit in with the French Law instead of the French Law and Culture being expected to fit in with her and with the Islamic way of doing things.
> 
> You seem to be very inclined to defend the rights of these Muslim fundamentalists women.....who enjoy more rights, freedoms and a much superior way of life than they ever could have   imagine  in their home countries where they are often subjected to horrible treatment as you must know.
> 
> Why don't you go over to an Arab  country and see what you can do about allowing them freedom of dress and allowing them to wear the burkini.
> 
> The end result would be at best you would be thrown into prison and deported or at worst something really horrible would happen to you.
> 
> If you are really so intent on protecting the freedoms of the Muslim women you should really think about  going there to these Arab countries,where your constant demands for women's freedom would be much more appreciate  and appropriate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, your channeling claim is completely wrong and offensive.
Click to expand...



The only thing I'm defending is 1) the right of women to wear what they wish and 2) religious freedom.

We aren't talking burkas and niqab's. We aren't talking about covering the face.

Is it so hard to accept that some women prefer to cover their bodies?

So, once you decide to outlaw benign religious expressions, where are you going to stop?  What are you going to do with Orthodox Jewish women who wear the same clothing - ban them from wearing it?  Or, are some religions allowed to "defy" this new expession of "frenchness" that mandates women's clothing?

You have a point if you are talking about clothing that covers faces but otherwise, that video of a group of french policemen standing over a woman and forcing her to disrobe is blatently disturbing.


----------



## skye

Coyote said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> You miss the point.
> 
> The reason these women dress "modestly" as you call it, is because their religion ordains it.
> 
> Whether you like it or not, we are at war with fundamental Islam, and we don't want to be constantly reminded of these facts by their powerful symbols of their brutal 7th century religion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Religions "ordain" many things.  Is the fact that Orthodox Jewish women keep their bodies and hair covered a "powerful symbol of their brutal 7th century religion" (though, it's much older than that)...or...is it free choice?
> 
> I'm sorry you do not like seeing women exercising their freedom of choice in a supposedly free western country.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How can you possibly compare Judaism to Islam?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Easy.  They're both religions.  Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow.  In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles.  Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Judaism?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Islam?  Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As mentioned fundamental  Islam is the  religion   that ordains jihad against the non believers by any means which at the moment means terrorism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So why should we   and the French  people not be upset when these Islamic symbols  are constantly being forced upon us.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who forced you to wear a burkini?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's got nothing to do at all with women's freedom of choice. It all about NOT SUBMITTING TO ISLAM.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...let's get this straight.  You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's quite surprising that feminists don't acknowledge how brutally women are treated in Islam.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are not discussing feminist rights but about trying to stop the spread of this alien culture whose purpose is to take over the host country like a virus.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?
> 
> Geez.  So much for freedom.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.
> 
> *We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Actually, the dress code is not necessarily part of "radicalism" - that's where you're off.  What you are insisting on is that woman must bare their bodies in defiance of their beliefs because their dress OFFENDS you and you don't want to see anyone who is visibly Muslim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.
> 
> Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.
> 
> *There is no point in carrying on and talking any  more   about feminist and women's  rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.*
> 
> This is a different topic entirely.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Feminism and OPPRESSION of women was part of the discussion from the beginning and one of the rationales used - you must have missed that part.
> 
> When citizens of a free and open country accept laws and limitations to their freedom - for example, like the Patriot Act in the US - it's done so for reasons national security or public safety or standards of decency.  It's not done because people are offended by the site of Muslim woman who chooses to dress according to her religion.  *It's especially not done in such a way that explicitly discriminates against one religion, even when other religions impose similar dress codes on their followers*.
> 
> I'm just wondering what makes this any different then laws in far less open and free countries that mandate a woman completely cover herself in a garment resembling an oversized trash bag.  The truth is there is no difference - you're removing from the woman, her right to choose and mandating that she must wear what you think is appropriate.
> 
> "Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd.
Click to expand...




What do you mean by this last phrase in your post above...where you say I am channeling "Alex"  in this post?

I have the right to know what you mean by that ridiculous phrase. You lost me there. Ok?


----------



## Coyote

skye said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Religions "ordain" many things.  Is the fact that Orthodox Jewish women keep their bodies and hair covered a "powerful symbol of their brutal 7th century religion" (though, it's much older than that)...or...is it free choice?
> 
> I'm sorry you do not like seeing women exercising their freedom of choice in a supposedly free western country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How can you possibly compare Judaism to Islam?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Easy.  They're both religions.  Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow.  In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles.  Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Judaism?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Islam?  Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As mentioned fundamental  Islam is the  religion   that ordains jihad against the non believers by any means which at the moment means terrorism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So why should we   and the French  people not be upset when these Islamic symbols  are constantly being forced upon us.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who forced you to wear a burkini?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's got nothing to do at all with women's freedom of choice. It all about NOT SUBMITTING TO ISLAM.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...let's get this straight.  You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's quite surprising that feminists don't acknowledge how brutally women are treated in Islam.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are not discussing feminist rights but about trying to stop the spread of this alien culture whose purpose is to take over the host country like a virus.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?
> 
> Geez.  So much for freedom.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.
> 
> *We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Actually, the dress code is not necessarily part of "radicalism" - that's where you're off.  What you are insisting on is that woman must bare their bodies in defiance of their beliefs because their dress OFFENDS you and you don't want to see anyone who is visibly Muslim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.
> 
> Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.
> 
> *There is no point in carrying on and talking any  more   about feminist and women's  rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.*
> 
> This is a different topic entirely.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Feminism and OPPRESSION of women was part of the discussion from the beginning and one of the rationales used - you must have missed that part.
> 
> When citizens of a free and open country accept laws and limitations to their freedom - for example, like the Patriot Act in the US - it's done so for reasons national security or public safety or standards of decency.  It's not done because people are offended by the site of Muslim woman who chooses to dress according to her religion.  *It's especially not done in such a way that explicitly discriminates against one religion, even when other religions impose similar dress codes on their followers*.
> 
> I'm just wondering what makes this any different then laws in far less open and free countries that mandate a woman completely cover herself in a garment resembling an oversized trash bag.  The truth is there is no difference - you're removing from the woman, her right to choose and mandating that she must wear what you think is appropriate.
> 
> "Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd.
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What do you mean by this last phrase in your post above...where you say I am channeling "Alex"  in this post?
> 
> I have the right to know what you mean by that ridiculous phrase. You lost me there. Ok?
Click to expand...


You sounded like the way Alex argues.


----------



## skye

Coyote said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> How can you possibly compare Judaism to Islam?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Easy.  They're both religions.  Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow.  In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles.  Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Judaism?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Islam?  Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As mentioned fundamental  Islam is the  religion   that ordains jihad against the non believers by any means which at the moment means terrorism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So why should we   and the French  people not be upset when these Islamic symbols  are constantly being forced upon us.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who forced you to wear a burkini?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's got nothing to do at all with women's freedom of choice. It all about NOT SUBMITTING TO ISLAM.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...let's get this straight.  You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's quite surprising that feminists don't acknowledge how brutally women are treated in Islam.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are not discussing feminist rights but about trying to stop the spread of this alien culture whose purpose is to take over the host country like a virus.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?
> 
> Geez.  So much for freedom.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.
> 
> *We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Actually, the dress code is not necessarily part of "radicalism" - that's where you're off.  What you are insisting on is that woman must bare their bodies in defiance of their beliefs because their dress OFFENDS you and you don't want to see anyone who is visibly Muslim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.
> 
> Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.
> 
> *There is no point in carrying on and talking any  more   about feminist and women's  rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.*
> 
> This is a different topic entirely.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Feminism and OPPRESSION of women was part of the discussion from the beginning and one of the rationales used - you must have missed that part.
> 
> When citizens of a free and open country accept laws and limitations to their freedom - for example, like the Patriot Act in the US - it's done so for reasons national security or public safety or standards of decency.  It's not done because people are offended by the site of Muslim woman who chooses to dress according to her religion.  *It's especially not done in such a way that explicitly discriminates against one religion, even when other religions impose similar dress codes on their followers*.
> 
> I'm just wondering what makes this any different then laws in far less open and free countries that mandate a woman completely cover herself in a garment resembling an oversized trash bag.  The truth is there is no difference - you're removing from the woman, her right to choose and mandating that she must wear what you think is appropriate.
> 
> "Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd.
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What do you mean by this last phrase in your post above...where you say I am channeling "Alex"  in this post?
> 
> I have the right to know what you mean by that ridiculous phrase. You lost me there. Ok?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You sounded like the way Alex argues.
Click to expand...



Oh ok.

that wasn't so hard now...was it?

I had to ask you three times.....but ...whewwwww......we finally got there.


----------



## skye

Coyote said:


> Tilly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Religions "ordain" many things.  Is the fact that Orthodox Jewish women keep their bodies and hair covered a "powerful symbol of their brutal 7th century religion" (though, it's much older than that)...or...is it free choice?
> 
> I'm sorry you do not like seeing women exercising their freedom of choice in a supposedly free western country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How can you possibly compare Judaism to Islam?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Easy.  They're both religions.  Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow.  In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles.  Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Judaism?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Islam?  Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As mentioned fundamental  Islam is the  religion   that ordains jihad against the non believers by any means which at the moment means terrorism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So why should we   and the French  people not be upset when these Islamic symbols  are constantly being forced upon us.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who forced you to wear a burkini?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's got nothing to do at all with women's freedom of choice. It all about NOT SUBMITTING TO ISLAM.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...let's get this straight.  You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's quite surprising that feminists don't acknowledge how brutally women are treated in Islam.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are not discussing feminist rights but about trying to stop the spread of this alien culture whose purpose is to take over the host country like a virus.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?
> 
> Geez.  So much for freedom.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.
> 
> We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.
> 
> The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.
> 
> Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.
> 
> There is no point in carrying on and talking any  more   about feminist and women's  rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.
> 
> This is a different topic entirely.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> She is missing the point on purpose, as usual. A recent poll in France showed only 6% support women wearing the burkini. It's not difficult to understand why it's an issue in SECULAR France, as you say.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are being an idiot, as usual.  Its about free choice.  No one is forcing a woman to wear it and no one is forcing a woman to not wear it.  It's a free country.  In theory.  That 6% who support it can wear it.  No one else has to
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> How can you possibly compare Judaism to Islam?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Easy.  They're both religions.  Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow.  In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles.  Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Judaism?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Islam?  Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As mentioned fundamental  Islam is the  religion   that ordains jihad against the non believers by any means which at the moment means terrorism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So why should we   and the French  people not be upset when these Islamic symbols  are constantly being forced upon us.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who forced you to wear a burkini?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's got nothing to do at all with women's freedom of choice. It all about NOT SUBMITTING TO ISLAM.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...let's get this straight.  You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's quite surprising that feminists don't acknowledge how brutally women are treated in Islam.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are not discussing feminist rights but about trying to stop the spread of this alien culture whose purpose is to take over the host country like a virus.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?
> 
> Geez.  So much for freedom.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.
> 
> *We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Actually, the dress code is not necessarily part of "radicalism" - that's where you're off.  What you are insisting on is that woman must bare their bodies in defiance of their beliefs because their dress OFFENDS you and you don't want to see anyone who is visibly Muslim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.
> 
> Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.
> 
> *There is no point in carrying on and talking any  more   about feminist and women's  rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.*
> 
> This is a different topic entirely.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Feminism and OPPRESSION of women was part of the discussion from the beginning and one of the rationales used - you must have missed that part.
> 
> When citizens of a free and open country accept laws and limitations to their freedom - for example, like the Patriot Act in the US - it's done so for reasons national security or public safety or standards of decency.  It's not done because people are offended by the site of Muslim woman who chooses to dress according to her religion.  *It's especially not done in such a way that explicitly discriminates against one religion, even when other religions impose similar dress codes on their followers*.
> 
> I'm just wondering what makes this any different then laws in far less open and free countries that mandate a woman completely cover herself in a garment resembling an oversized trash bag.  The truth is there is no difference - you're removing from the woman, her right to choose and mandating that she must wear what you think is appropriate.
> 
> "Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd.
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I have tried to explain to you the reasons why these Islamic women's clothes are offensive, disturbing and even frightening for people  in many Western countries. For example in nine European countries there is talk of banning them to some extent.
> 
> Once again the reasons are to do with the expression of Islamic fundamentalism and  even defiance caused by wearing them.
> 
> It's got nothing to do with the patriot act in the US whatsoever.....patriot act? WTF?
> 
> If a country like France chooses to pass a law banning the wearing of the burkini it is totally entitled  to do so   and more power to them!  There is no point babbling on about feminist rights regarding freedom of what to wear.
> 
> It is not up to a Muslim woman to maintain that  she must obey fundamental Islam or Sharia Law in her new country.
> 
> She must be expected to fit in with the French Law instead of the French Law and Culture being expected to fit in with her and with the Islamic way of doing things.
> 
> You seem to be very inclined to defend the rights of these Muslim fundamentalists women.....who enjoy more rights, freedoms and a much superior way of life than they ever could have   imagine  in their home countries where they are often subjected to horrible treatment as you must know.
> 
> Why don't you go over to an Arab  country and see what you can do about allowing them freedom of dress and allowing them to wear the burkini.
> 
> The end result would be at best you would be thrown into prison and deported or at worst something really horrible would happen to you.
> 
> If you are really so intent on protecting the freedoms of the Muslim women you should really think about  going there to these Arab countries,where your constant demands for women's freedom would be much more appreciate  and appropriate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, your channeling claim is completely wrong and offensive.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The only thing I'm defending is 1) the right of women to wear what they wish and 2) religious freedom.
> 
> We aren't talking burkas and niqab's. We aren't talking about covering the face.
> 
> Is it so hard to accept that some women prefer to cover their bodies?
> 
> So, once you decide to outlaw benign religious expressions, where are you going to stop?  What are you going to do with Orthodox Jewish women who wear the same clothing - ban them from wearing it?  Or, are some religions allowed to "defy" this new expession of "frenchness" that mandates women's clothing?
> 
> You have a point if you are talking about clothing that covers faces but otherwise, that video of a group of french policemen standing over a woman and forcing her to disrobe is blatently disturbing.
Click to expand...


I can't agree with most of your points because they really aren't relevant.

 But seriously it is not expected that you travel to an Arab country  as I mentioned, to defend these women freedoms ,which amount to almost zero.

Why don't you start a new thread criticizing these complete lack of freedoms in the Arab countries and I will be glad to join in with you.


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## StLucieBengal

Do women prefer their bodies covered or are they just afraid of what will happen under Islam?


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## StLucieBengal

Is this the way anyone thinks women should be treated?  

Warning Graphic video


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## gtopa1

Tilly said:


> A French woman's perspective:
> 
> 
> *Why should France accept the burkini? Its time to debate integration head-on*
> 
> MURIEL DEMARCUS
> 30 AUGUST 2016 • 1:36PM
> 
> The burkini ban in my home country (I am a French woman living in London) has made headlines for most of August.  Despite the fact that it has eventually been overturned by the highest French court, the debate is far from over. Journalists have had a field day mocking what they see as an attack against personal freedoms, and keep mentioning that the rightwing in France still supports the ban. What a simplistic view of the situation!
> 
> According to various polls, two thirds of the French population supported the ban, and this included the socialist French Prime Minister, Manuel Valls, who famously said that that the full-body swimsuit symbolised the enslavement of women. So what is this really about? I got tired of reading analysis that, in my view, only gave a partial side of the issue, so here is my (very French) take on it.
> 
> First of all, France is a secular country. Obviously, France is not the only Western country to insist on the separation of church and state – but I believe that it does so more militantly than any other. To an extent, you could say that secularism is the closest thing we French have to a state religion. It underpinned the French Revolution and has been a foundation of the country's progressive thought for centuries. The law of separation meant strict official neutrality in religious affairs. The Republic has always recognised individuals, rather than groups: this means that you are supposed to be French first, then Muslim, or Catholic, or whatever your religion or ethnic minority might be. You therefore need to comply with the law even if it goes against your religious beliefs, because secularism prevails in all circumstances.  Although it can be carried to extremes that other countries don’t understand, this view of citizenship is fundamentally non-discriminatory and inclusive. It’s all about finding a common ground, whatever your religion. Burkini bans must be viewed in this context, and are nothing new.
> 
> Rightly or wrongly, French citizens are scared of the Islamisation of their society. Obviously the latest attacks in Nice have further polarised an already divided population. The population is still traumatised, and believes that things have become worse over the last decade or so: people see more veiled women on the street, and are shocked to see a few niqabs or burkas from time to time, despite a full ban. This is compounded by the fact that young women are more and more targeted by some members of the Muslim community on the issue of modesty. For instance, last year in Reims a young woman sunbathing in a public park was set upon by a gang of teenage girls. They objected to her bikini, and the town’s authorities were fast to insist there was no religious aspect to the attack. Nobody believed them.
> 
> I belong to a generation that never saw a burkini or a full-body swimsuit at the beach before this summer’s events. This is clearly a new occurrence. The French also are shocked to learn that France is now home to thousands of Islamic radicals. Citizens feel that enough ground has been ceded to minorities in general, and to the Muslim minorities in particular. They think that things have now come to a head, and learned the hard way that political correctness doesn’t work. Furthermore, the French don’t understand why their women should cover up when they visit some Muslim country, but let women wear a veil or a burkini when they visit France. In short, they don’t understand why they should compromise when other countries don’t. It’s all about "my country, my rules".
> 
> Then again, I keep reading that the burkini is empowering for Muslim women who wouldn’t be able to go to the beach otherwise. I am struggling with such a point. Just look at the 1950s and 1960s photos of women in modern, comfortable clothes in Afghanistan or Egypt. They clearly were not forced to succumb to the new wave of stricter Islamic dress code. What changed? Why should women suddenly cover up? Islam seems to have been hijacked, and women are, once again, the first hostages. Why should women sympathise with the hijackers? Isn’t this a classic case of Stockholm syndrome?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Egyptian leader Gamal Abdul Nasser with his family in the 1960s CREDIT: AFP/GETTY
> And what’s next? Should we also allow FGM to be respectful of different cultural practices? What about polygamy? In short, Western societies need to define what’s acceptable for them, and what’s not. There is a need to draw a line, and maybe the French have drawn it at the burkini. Is it futile? Maybe. But at least a social debate is starting. It’s a debate that societies simply can’t avoid forever.  Whether we like it or not, society must have a clear set of "inclusiveness principles", and it’s probably better to face the issue rather than ignore it.
> 
> Don’t get me wrong, if covering up was simply a matter of personal style I would be all for it. But let’s be honest: it’s fairly easy to see whether women cover up for religious reasons or not (for starters women would get a hat, not a veil). What makes me angry is when I am out in blistering heat, and I see a family at the beach with kids in bathing suits, the dad in swimming trunks, and the mum covered in black from head to toe. It’s modest and it’s for religious reasons, but those reasons clearly seem oppressive and unfair. I can’t understand why a husband would want his wife to wear this. And don’t even try to swim in such an attire.
> 
> In the end, the burkini and some other Islamic dresses are less innocuous than they seem. It has to do with an explicit inequality between genders, which is unacceptable under French law. Let’s face it: we already have far too many of such inequalities…So why should the French accept this one? And let’s not forget that Syrian women burnt burqas in celebration after being freed from Isil. In the meantime, in France, more Muslim women are peer-pressured to wear the veil or the burkini. This seems rather counter-intuitive.
> 
> In conclusion, it’s time to go back, understand and reinforce the principles that underpin our democracies. Integration is a two-way street. Was the ban the best way to deal with the issue? Probably not. But I sincerely hope that it will start a much-needed social debate, in France and anywhere else.
> 
> Why should France accept the burkini? Its time to debate integration head-on



because it will help Australia's balance of trade??

Greg


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## Tilly

Conspicuous displays of religion are considered divisive in France.


...The government’s defence of the burkini ban rests on worries about religious tension and public order after recent terrorist attacks, coupled with two underlying principles. *The first is laïcité, a strict form of secularism enshrined by law in 1905 after a struggle against authoritarian Catholicism. *This principle is supposed to keep religion out of public life, *and has been the basis of previous French bans: on the headscarf (and other “conspicuous” religious symbols, including the Jewish kippah and oversized crucifixes*) in state schools (in 2004), and the face-covering _niqab_ in all public places (in 2010). 

The other principle is women’s equality. It may appear bizarre, or frivolous, to argue that women should bare more flesh. *But many on the French left in particular regard the need to protect women from a male-imposed doctrine as being at stake—and are willing to put i*t even before liberty, another founding value of republican France. *The logic of the burkini, says Laurence Rossignol, the Socialist women’s minister, is to “hide women’s bodies in order better to control them”.*

....They may note that in 2014 the European Court of Human Rights upheld France’s burqa ban. *What outsiders fail to understand, the French argue, is that such body wear is not just a casual choice but part of an attempt by political Islamism to win recruits and test the resilience of the French republic. Mr Valls dismisses as naive those who see it as being no different than a wetsuit. The burkini, he says, is part of a “political project”, and complacency plays into the hands of Islamists....

http://www.economist.com/blogs/econ...de&spv=xm&ah=9d7f7ab945510a56fa6d37c30b6f1709*


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## StLucieBengal

If you like ham on your pizza ....  That puts you in line for a beating and for Muslims to not only assault but also  humiliate your woman.     

Couple Brutally Attacked For Ordering Ham On Their Pizza

*Couple Brutally Attacked For Ordering Ham On Their Pizza*

*Two men who attacked a young couple for eating a pizza topped with ham have been sentenced to 18 months in prison.*

Youness Boussaid and Fatah Bouzid, both 27, launched a brutal attack on the pair after warning them they would “go to hell” because the pizza they were eating contained ham.

The victims left Le Mix Bar, a nightclub in Cambrésis, France, where they had spent the evening, and ordered pizza from a nearby food vendor. They were approached by Boussaid and Bouzid soon after, who offered the young couple cocaine.

Noticing ham on the pizza, the two Arabs told the pair they would “go to hell” for eating it. Islam forbids the consumption of meat from pigs.

*Seeking to humiliate the woman, the assailants caressed her blonde hair and forced fingers into her nose, which caused her to fall and lose consciousness.* When *her companion tried to protect her, the two Arabs began to beat the young man *before security staff from Le Mix Bar intervened.

Boussaid and Bouzid then fled in a German sedan rented in Belgium, whose registration plate led to the men being identified after a long police investigation.

The two men were identified by the pizza chef, the victims, and another witness, and photos certified their presence at the scene yet the two men denied all the facts in court. The pair were sentenced to a year and six months in prison, and ordered to each pay €1,500 in damages.

In June, Muslims attackeda waitress in Nice after seeing her serve alcohol during Ramadan, leaving the woman with large facial haematoma.

In the same Nice neighbourhood, three men were given suspended sentences for repeatedly threatening, then physically assaulting, a Muslim baker they accused of being un-Islamic for serving ham sandwiches and alcohol at his shop.

The Socialist Party government in France appears to be turning a blind eye to the growing problem of members of their Muslim minority holding non-Muslims and their lifestyles in contempt.

Instead, they launched a €100 million campaign against “populism” earlier this year in an attempt to stop people from voting for the anti mass-migration Front National.


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## Jarlaxle

StLucieBengal said:


> idb said:
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> StLucieBengal said:
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> idb said:
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> StLucieBengal said:
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> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some people seem to think that removing woman's choice on what to wear swimming is freeing her from "oppression".
> 
> Allowing her choice = oppression
> Forcing her to wear a revealing swim suit = freedom
> 
> If a woman chooses to be a homemaker, is she oppressed?
> If she is banned from being a homemaker and forced to work...is she free?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When a battered woman chooses to stay with her abuser is she oppressed?
> 
> You are comparing apples to oranges
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why, in your world, can't a woman choose to cover up at the beach?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Is it a choice when you are compelled at the threat of mental or physical violence?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Of course not.
> How do you know that a woman, lying on the beach, who is covered up has been forced to wear that clothing?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because no woman goes to the beach to expose only her eyeballs in 95 degree heat.
Click to expand...

My mother showns little or no skin at the beach.


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## ChrisL

If they aren't trying to force others to dress as they are dressing, then I don't see how this is a problem for anyone else.


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## Jarlaxle

StLucieBengal said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm old enough to remember when we were NOT allowed to wear pants to school.  And then...they allowed "pantsuits" - but not trousers or jeans (and talk about fugly).  I'll be damned if I'm going to allow anyone to tell me what I can or can't wear.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well if you wish to talk fashion we can go there in another thread.    Personally when women stopped dressing as women is where we lost the plot.
> 
> Too bad we don't see women wearing a dress much anymore.   Now it's all super casual to the point that we see pajama pants at the supermarket.
> 
> Women are beautiful specimens and it's a shame they waste that beauty by dressing like a man or a hobo.
Click to expand...

Yoga pants are a wonderful thing........


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## Esmeralda

Coyote said:


> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
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> idb said:
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> StLucieBengal said:
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> idb said:
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> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> None of those you posted cover up their heads or below their knees.
> 
> Which is a perfect example that there is conservative alternatives already on the market for the Muslims
> 
> 
> 
> Is that the criteria you'd use to kick women off the beach?
> They mustn't cover their heads or lower legs?
> Just trying to get a handle on the rules here.
> 
> Does it apply to men as well?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Its interesting that you are so hell bent on making sure these women can be forced to be covered head to toe.
> 
> I would rather we dial it back to normal western standards and if they decide to go modest then there are plenty of options.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, I disagree with you telling them that the must dress a certain way.
> They should be able to dress any way they like...why do you want to oppress them?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think that they're trying to liberate them and I accept that. But many of these people are in transition. I suggest that we just be patient. Burkinis are only a recent invention.
> 
> Greg
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Burkini's also allow women who might not otherwise get out to enjoy the beach, out and enjoying the beach.  And what people don't realize, it's not just Muslim women who face this problem and it's not just Muslim women who are impacted by these sorts of decisions.
> 
> The challenges of exercising for some Muslim and Orthodox Jewish women
Click to expand...


There is a lot of partial nudity on the beaches of France, especially along the Mediterranean.  Many women go topless.  I wonder that conservative Muslim women would be comfortable in such an atmosphere.  I wonder why they would even want to be there.

I lived for 2 years in Turkey. I traveled around Turkey with Muslim women.  They go to the beach and wear bikinis, older women may wear one piece suits.  No one felt this was an offense to modesty.  It is not Islam that dictates something like the burkini.  It is oppressive cultural attitudes.


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## Coyote

Esmeralda said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> gtopa1 said:
> 
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> idb said:
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> StLucieBengal said:
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> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is that the criteria you'd use to kick women off the beach?
> They mustn't cover their heads or lower legs?
> Just trying to get a handle on the rules here.
> 
> Does it apply to men as well?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Its interesting that you are so hell bent on making sure these women can be forced to be covered head to toe.
> 
> I would rather we dial it back to normal western standards and if they decide to go modest then there are plenty of options.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, I disagree with you telling them that the must dress a certain way.
> They should be able to dress any way they like...why do you want to oppress them?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think that they're trying to liberate them and I accept that. But many of these people are in transition. I suggest that we just be patient. Burkinis are only a recent invention.
> 
> Greg
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Burkini's also allow women who might not otherwise get out to enjoy the beach, out and enjoying the beach.  And what people don't realize, it's not just Muslim women who face this problem and it's not just Muslim women who are impacted by these sorts of decisions.
> 
> The challenges of exercising for some Muslim and Orthodox Jewish women
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There is a lot of partial nudity on the beaches of France, especially along the Mediterranean.  Many women go topless.  I wonder that conservative Muslim women would be comfortable in such an atmosphere.  I wonder why they would even want to be there.
> 
> I lived for 2 years in Turkey. I traveled around Turkey with Muslim women.  They go to the beach and wear bikinis, older women may wear one piece suits.  No one felt this was an offense to modesty.  It is not Islam that dictates something like the burkini.  It is oppressive cultural attitudes.
Click to expand...



Agree, it's cultural attitudes - but, who has the right to force them to where something they feel is dreadfully imodest?  Shouldn't it be her choice?


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## Esmeralda

Coyote said:


> Esmeralda said:
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> Coyote said:
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> gtopa1 said:
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> idb said:
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> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its interesting that you are so hell bent on making sure these women can be forced to be covered head to toe.
> 
> I would rather we dial it back to normal western standards and if they decide to go modest then there are plenty of options.
> 
> 
> 
> No, I disagree with you telling them that the must dress a certain way.
> They should be able to dress any way they like...why do you want to oppress them?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think that they're trying to liberate them and I accept that. But many of these people are in transition. I suggest that we just be patient. Burkinis are only a recent invention.
> 
> Greg
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Burkini's also allow women who might not otherwise get out to enjoy the beach, out and enjoying the beach.  And what people don't realize, it's not just Muslim women who face this problem and it's not just Muslim women who are impacted by these sorts of decisions.
> 
> The challenges of exercising for some Muslim and Orthodox Jewish women
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There is a lot of partial nudity on the beaches of France, especially along the Mediterranean.  Many women go topless.  I wonder that conservative Muslim women would be comfortable in such an atmosphere.  I wonder why they would even want to be there.
> 
> I lived for 2 years in Turkey. I traveled around Turkey with Muslim women.  They go to the beach and wear bikinis, older women may wear one piece suits.  No one felt this was an offense to modesty.  It is not Islam that dictates something like the burkini.  It is oppressive cultural attitudes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Agree, it's cultural attitudes - but, who has the right to force them to where something they feel is dreadfully imodest?  Shouldn't it be her choice?
Click to expand...

Well, it isn't their culture.  If the French culture says you can't wear this outfit, we don't find it acceptable, then that's what you adhere to. I have lived in far more conservative Muslim countries than Turkey and I and other Western women are expected to conform to a certain level of modesty in public dress. We are not onlyy expected to, we are required to. Now, for me, an older woman, it is not really an issue, but young women simply cannot wear the kind of clothing, like mini skirts or tank tops, for instance, they would wear in the West

I find it extremelyy hypocritical that the Muslim women get so bent out of shape being required to abstain from certain dress when they are in the West, but expect Western women to adhere to their standards in Muslim countries.


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## Coyote

skye said:


> Coyote said:
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> How can you possibly compare Judaism to Islam?
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> 
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> 
> Easy.  They're both religions.  Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow.  In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles.  Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Judaism?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Islam?  Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As mentioned fundamental  Islam is the  religion   that ordains jihad against the non believers by any means which at the moment means terrorism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So why should we   and the French  people not be upset when these Islamic symbols  are constantly being forced upon us.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who forced you to wear a burkini?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's got nothing to do at all with women's freedom of choice. It all about NOT SUBMITTING TO ISLAM.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...let's get this straight.  You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's quite surprising that feminists don't acknowledge how brutally women are treated in Islam.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are not discussing feminist rights but about trying to stop the spread of this alien culture whose purpose is to take over the host country like a virus.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?
> 
> Geez.  So much for freedom.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.
> 
> We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.
> 
> The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.
> 
> Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.
> 
> There is no point in carrying on and talking any  more   about feminist and women's  rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.
> 
> This is a different topic entirely.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> She is missing the point on purpose, as usual. A recent poll in France showed only 6% support women wearing the burkini. It's not difficult to understand why it's an issue in SECULAR France, as you say.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are being an idiot, as usual.  Its about free choice.  No one is forcing a woman to wear it and no one is forcing a woman to not wear it.  It's a free country.  In theory.  That 6% who support it can wear it.  No one else has to
> 
> 
> skye said:
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> Coyote said:
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> 
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> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Easy.  They're both religions.  Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow.  In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles.  Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.
> 
> Since when are we at war with Islam?  Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.
> 
> Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.
> 
> Who forced you to wear a burkini?
> 
> So...let's get this straight.  You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?
> 
> Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.
> 
> So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?
> 
> Geez.  So much for freedom.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.
> 
> *We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Actually, the dress code is not necessarily part of "radicalism" - that's where you're off.  What you are insisting on is that woman must bare their bodies in defiance of their beliefs because their dress OFFENDS you and you don't want to see anyone who is visibly Muslim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.
> 
> Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.
> 
> *There is no point in carrying on and talking any  more   about feminist and women's  rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.*
> 
> This is a different topic entirely.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Feminism and OPPRESSION of women was part of the discussion from the beginning and one of the rationales used - you must have missed that part.
> 
> When citizens of a free and open country accept laws and limitations to their freedom - for example, like the Patriot Act in the US - it's done so for reasons national security or public safety or standards of decency.  It's not done because people are offended by the site of Muslim woman who chooses to dress according to her religion.  *It's especially not done in such a way that explicitly discriminates against one religion, even when other religions impose similar dress codes on their followers*.
> 
> I'm just wondering what makes this any different then laws in far less open and free countries that mandate a woman completely cover herself in a garment resembling an oversized trash bag.  The truth is there is no difference - you're removing from the woman, her right to choose and mandating that she must wear what you think is appropriate.
> 
> "Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd.
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I have tried to explain to you the reasons why these Islamic women's clothes are offensive, disturbing and even frightening for people  in many Western countries. For example in nine European countries there is talk of banning them to some extent.
> 
> Once again the reasons are to do with the expression of Islamic fundamentalism and  even defiance caused by wearing them.
> 
> It's got nothing to do with the patriot act in the US whatsoever.....patriot act? WTF?
> 
> If a country like France chooses to pass a law banning the wearing of the burkini it is totally entitled  to do so   and more power to them!  There is no point babbling on about feminist rights regarding freedom of what to wear.
> 
> It is not up to a Muslim woman to maintain that  she must obey fundamental Islam or Sharia Law in her new country.
> 
> She must be expected to fit in with the French Law instead of the French Law and Culture being expected to fit in with her and with the Islamic way of doing things.
> 
> You seem to be very inclined to defend the rights of these Muslim fundamentalists women.....who enjoy more rights, freedoms and a much superior way of life than they ever could have   imagine  in their home countries where they are often subjected to horrible treatment as you must know.
> 
> Why don't you go over to an Arab  country and see what you can do about allowing them freedom of dress and allowing them to wear the burkini.
> 
> The end result would be at best you would be thrown into prison and deported or at worst something really horrible would happen to you.
> 
> If you are really so intent on protecting the freedoms of the Muslim women you should really think about  going there to these Arab countries,where your constant demands for women's freedom would be much more appreciate  and appropriate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, your channeling claim is completely wrong and offensive.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The only thing I'm defending is 1) the right of women to wear what they wish and 2) religious freedom.
> 
> We aren't talking burkas and niqab's. We aren't talking about covering the face.
> 
> Is it so hard to accept that some women prefer to cover their bodies?
> 
> So, once you decide to outlaw benign religious expressions, where are you going to stop?  What are you going to do with Orthodox Jewish women who wear the same clothing - ban them from wearing it?  Or, are some religions allowed to "defy" this new expession of "frenchness" that mandates women's clothing?
> 
> You have a point if you are talking about clothing that covers faces but otherwise, that video of a group of french policemen standing over a woman and forcing her to disrobe is blatently disturbing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I can't agree with most of your points because they really aren't relevant.
> 
> But seriously it is not expected that you travel to an Arab country  as I mentioned, to defend these women freedoms ,which amount to almost zero.
> 
> Why don't you start a new thread criticizing these complete lack of freedoms in the Arab countries and I will be glad to join in with you.
Click to expand...


Nice deflection Skye/Alex but this isn't a thread about women in unfree countries but women in a free country.  Every point I made has been brought up by others already in this thread so there is no need to try to be the resident thread nazi.  

Most laws concerning dress codes involve minimum standards for decency or security.  In a free country, we see dress run the gamut and reflective of the diversity of the population.

Now, suddenly, there is a law mandating women dress to a more minimal standard - more minimal then they feel is modest on a public beach.  Who cares what they wear?  

 I notice you don't say anything about the pictures of the policeMEN, standing over that poor woman and forcing her to disrobe in public.


----------



## Coyote

Esmeralda said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, I disagree with you telling them that the must dress a certain way.
> They should be able to dress any way they like...why do you want to oppress them?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think that they're trying to liberate them and I accept that. But many of these people are in transition. I suggest that we just be patient. Burkinis are only a recent invention.
> 
> Greg
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Burkini's also allow women who might not otherwise get out to enjoy the beach, out and enjoying the beach.  And what people don't realize, it's not just Muslim women who face this problem and it's not just Muslim women who are impacted by these sorts of decisions.
> 
> The challenges of exercising for some Muslim and Orthodox Jewish women
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There is a lot of partial nudity on the beaches of France, especially along the Mediterranean.  Many women go topless.  I wonder that conservative Muslim women would be comfortable in such an atmosphere.  I wonder why they would even want to be there.
> 
> I lived for 2 years in Turkey. I traveled around Turkey with Muslim women.  They go to the beach and wear bikinis, older women may wear one piece suits.  No one felt this was an offense to modesty.  It is not Islam that dictates something like the burkini.  It is oppressive cultural attitudes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Agree, it's cultural attitudes - but, who has the right to force them to where something they feel is dreadfully imodest?  Shouldn't it be her choice?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well, it isn't their culture.  If the French culture says you can't wear this outfit, we don't find it acceptable, then that's what you adhere to. I have lived in far more conservative Muslim countries than Turkey and I and other Western women are expected to conform to a certain level of modesty in public dress. We are not onlyy expected to, we are required to. Now, for me, an older woman, it is not really an issue, but young women simply cannot wear the kind of clothing, like mini skirts or tank tops, for instance, they would wear in the West
> 
> *I find it extremelyy hypocritical that the Muslim women get so bent out of shape being required to abstain from certain dress when they are in the West, but expect Western women to adhere to their standards in Muslim countries*.
Click to expand...


Shouldn't women have the right to choose in a FREE country?   What if our country passed a law stating that women had to wear thongs and go topless on public beaches?


----------



## saveliberty

Coyote said:


> Shouldn't women have the right to choose in a FREE country?   What if our country passed a law stating that women had to wear thongs and go topless on public beaches?



I guess this isn't a free country.


----------



## StLucieBengal

Jarlaxle said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> When a battered woman chooses to stay with her abuser is she oppressed?
> 
> You are comparing apples to oranges
> 
> 
> 
> Why, in your world, can't a woman choose to cover up at the beach?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Is it a choice when you are compelled at the threat of mental or physical violence?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Of course not.
> How do you know that a woman, lying on the beach, who is covered up has been forced to wear that clothing?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because no woman goes to the beach to expose only her eyeballs in 95 degree heat.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My mother showns little or no skin at the beach.
Click to expand...



Does she dress like a ghost or do what most older people do to watch how much sun they get?   

Big difference between old lady American at the beach and a Muslim in black ghost attire.


----------



## StLucieBengal

Esmeralda said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> idb said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, I disagree with you telling them that the must dress a certain way.
> They should be able to dress any way they like...why do you want to oppress them?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think that they're trying to liberate them and I accept that. But many of these people are in transition. I suggest that we just be patient. Burkinis are only a recent invention.
> 
> Greg
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Burkini's also allow women who might not otherwise get out to enjoy the beach, out and enjoying the beach.  And what people don't realize, it's not just Muslim women who face this problem and it's not just Muslim women who are impacted by these sorts of decisions.
> 
> The challenges of exercising for some Muslim and Orthodox Jewish women
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There is a lot of partial nudity on the beaches of France, especially along the Mediterranean.  Many women go topless.  I wonder that conservative Muslim women would be comfortable in such an atmosphere.  I wonder why they would even want to be there.
> 
> I lived for 2 years in Turkey. I traveled around Turkey with Muslim women.  They go to the beach and wear bikinis, older women may wear one piece suits.  No one felt this was an offense to modesty.  It is not Islam that dictates something like the burkini.  It is oppressive cultural attitudes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Agree, it's cultural attitudes - but, who has the right to force them to where something they feel is dreadfully imodest?  Shouldn't it be her choice?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well, it isn't their culture.  If the French culture says you can't wear this outfit, we don't find it acceptable, then that's what you adhere to. I have lived in far more conservative Muslim countries than Turkey and I and other Western women are expected to conform to a certain level of modesty in public dress. We are not onlyy expected to, we are required to. Now, for me, an older woman, it is not really an issue, but young women simply cannot wear the kind of clothing, like mini skirts or tank tops, for instance, they would wear in the West
> 
> I find it extremelyy hypocritical that the Muslim women get so bent out of shape being required to abstain from certain dress when they are in the West, but expect Western women to adhere to their standards in Muslim countries.
Click to expand...



This is where i am at...  Our women can't wear normal clothes over there so why on earth should we bend over backwards for their nonsense.     

If our women need to put on a scarf and cover up all skin then when they Muslims come to the west they can wear tank tops and shorts.   And if it's that big of an issue for them then they can just not come.     Just as we can not go there if we don't wanna respect their ways.


----------



## skye

Esmeralda said:


> I find it extremely hypocritical that the Muslim women get so bent out of shape being required to abstain from certain dress when they are in the West, but expect Western women to adhere to their standards in Muslim countries.




BINGO!  





Exactly, I do too. Talk about double standards.


----------



## skye

Coyote said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tilly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Easy.  They're both religions.  Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow.  In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles.  Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.
> 
> Since when are we at war with Islam?  Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.
> 
> Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.
> 
> Who forced you to wear a burkini?
> 
> So...let's get this straight.  You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?
> 
> Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.
> 
> So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?
> 
> Geez.  So much for freedom.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.
> 
> We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.
> 
> The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.
> 
> Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.
> 
> There is no point in carrying on and talking any  more   about feminist and women's  rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.
> 
> This is a different topic entirely.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> She is missing the point on purpose, as usual. A recent poll in France showed only 6% support women wearing the burkini. It's not difficult to understand why it's an issue in SECULAR France, as you say.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are being an idiot, as usual.  Its about free choice.  No one is forcing a woman to wear it and no one is forcing a woman to not wear it.  It's a free country.  In theory.  That 6% who support it can wear it.  No one else has to
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.
> 
> *We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Actually, the dress code is not necessarily part of "radicalism" - that's where you're off.  What you are insisting on is that woman must bare their bodies in defiance of their beliefs because their dress OFFENDS you and you don't want to see anyone who is visibly Muslim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.
> 
> Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.
> 
> *There is no point in carrying on and talking any  more   about feminist and women's  rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.*
> 
> This is a different topic entirely.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Feminism and OPPRESSION of women was part of the discussion from the beginning and one of the rationales used - you must have missed that part.
> 
> When citizens of a free and open country accept laws and limitations to their freedom - for example, like the Patriot Act in the US - it's done so for reasons national security or public safety or standards of decency.  It's not done because people are offended by the site of Muslim woman who chooses to dress according to her religion.  *It's especially not done in such a way that explicitly discriminates against one religion, even when other religions impose similar dress codes on their followers*.
> 
> I'm just wondering what makes this any different then laws in far less open and free countries that mandate a woman completely cover herself in a garment resembling an oversized trash bag.  The truth is there is no difference - you're removing from the woman, her right to choose and mandating that she must wear what you think is appropriate.
> 
> "Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd.
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I have tried to explain to you the reasons why these Islamic women's clothes are offensive, disturbing and even frightening for people  in many Western countries. For example in nine European countries there is talk of banning them to some extent.
> 
> Once again the reasons are to do with the expression of Islamic fundamentalism and  even defiance caused by wearing them.
> 
> It's got nothing to do with the patriot act in the US whatsoever.....patriot act? WTF?
> 
> If a country like France chooses to pass a law banning the wearing of the burkini it is totally entitled  to do so   and more power to them!  There is no point babbling on about feminist rights regarding freedom of what to wear.
> 
> It is not up to a Muslim woman to maintain that  she must obey fundamental Islam or Sharia Law in her new country.
> 
> She must be expected to fit in with the French Law instead of the French Law and Culture being expected to fit in with her and with the Islamic way of doing things.
> 
> You seem to be very inclined to defend the rights of these Muslim fundamentalists women.....who enjoy more rights, freedoms and a much superior way of life than they ever could have   imagine  in their home countries where they are often subjected to horrible treatment as you must know.
> 
> Why don't you go over to an Arab  country and see what you can do about allowing them freedom of dress and allowing them to wear the burkini.
> 
> The end result would be at best you would be thrown into prison and deported or at worst something really horrible would happen to you.
> 
> If you are really so intent on protecting the freedoms of the Muslim women you should really think about  going there to these Arab countries,where your constant demands for women's freedom would be much more appreciate  and appropriate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, your channeling claim is completely wrong and offensive.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The only thing I'm defending is 1) the right of women to wear what they wish and 2) religious freedom.
> 
> We aren't talking burkas and niqab's. We aren't talking about covering the face.
> 
> Is it so hard to accept that some women prefer to cover their bodies?
> 
> So, once you decide to outlaw benign religious expressions, where are you going to stop?  What are you going to do with Orthodox Jewish women who wear the same clothing - ban them from wearing it?  Or, are some religions allowed to "defy" this new expession of "frenchness" that mandates women's clothing?
> 
> You have a point if you are talking about clothing that covers faces but otherwise, that video of a group of french policemen standing over a woman and forcing her to disrobe is blatently disturbing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I can't agree with most of your points because they really aren't relevant.
> 
> But seriously it is not expected that you travel to an Arab country  as I mentioned, to defend these women freedoms ,which amount to almost zero.
> 
> Why don't you start a new thread criticizing these complete lack of freedoms in the Arab countries and I will be glad to join in with you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nice deflection Skye/Alex but this isn't a thread about women in unfree countries but women in a free country.  Every point I made has been brought up by others already in this thread so there is no need to try to be the resident thread nazi.
> 
> Most laws concerning dress codes involve minimum standards for decency or security.  In a free country, we see dress run the gamut and reflective of the diversity of the population.
> 
> Now, suddenly, there is a law mandating women dress to a more minimal standard - more minimal then they feel is modest on a public beach.  Who cares what they wear?
> 
> I notice you don't say anything about the pictures of the policeMEN, standing over that poor woman and forcing her to disrobe in public.
Click to expand...



This is getting absolutely ridiculous and you keep repeating yourself.

I don't agree with anything you say  and further more your pathetic claim that I sound like somebody else meaning that someone else is writing my posts  is completely false and really, as a moderator you should be more moderate and not make such claims from nowhere.

This claim does you no credit whatsoever!


----------



## Alex.

Coyote said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> You miss the point.
> 
> The reason these women dress "modestly" as you call it, is because their religion ordains it.
> 
> Whether you like it or not, we are at war with fundamental Islam, and we don't want to be constantly reminded of these facts by their powerful symbols of their brutal 7th century religion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Religions "ordain" many things.  Is the fact that Orthodox Jewish women keep their bodies and hair covered a "powerful symbol of their brutal 7th century religion" (though, it's much older than that)...or...is it free choice?
> 
> I'm sorry you do not like seeing women exercising their freedom of choice in a supposedly free western country.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How can you possibly compare Judaism to Islam?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Easy.  They're both religions.  Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow.  In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles.  Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Judaism?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Islam?  Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As mentioned fundamental  Islam is the  religion   that ordains jihad against the non believers by any means which at the moment means terrorism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So why should we   and the French  people not be upset when these Islamic symbols  are constantly being forced upon us.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who forced you to wear a burkini?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's got nothing to do at all with women's freedom of choice. It all about NOT SUBMITTING TO ISLAM.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...let's get this straight.  You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's quite surprising that feminists don't acknowledge how brutally women are treated in Islam.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are not discussing feminist rights but about trying to stop the spread of this alien culture whose purpose is to take over the host country like a virus.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?
> 
> Geez.  So much for freedom.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.
> 
> *We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Actually, the dress code is not necessarily part of "radicalism" - that's where you're off.  What you are insisting on is that woman must bare their bodies in defiance of their beliefs because their dress OFFENDS you and you don't want to see anyone who is visibly Muslim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.
> 
> Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.
> 
> *There is no point in carrying on and talking any  more   about feminist and women's  rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.*
> 
> This is a different topic entirely.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Feminism and OPPRESSION of women was part of the discussion from the beginning and one of the rationales used - you must have missed that part.
> 
> When citizens of a free and open country accept laws and limitations to their freedom - for example, like the Patriot Act in the US - it's done so for reasons national security or public safety or standards of decency.  It's not done because people are offended by the site of Muslim woman who chooses to dress according to her religion.  *It's especially not done in such a way that explicitly discriminates against one religion, even when other religions impose similar dress codes on their followers*.
> 
> I'm just wondering what makes this any different then laws in far less open and free countries that mandate a woman completely cover herself in a garment resembling an oversized trash bag.  The truth is there is no difference - you're removing from the woman, her right to choose and mandating that she must wear what you think is appropriate.
> 
> "Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd.
Click to expand...



Coyote: "Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd." 

The only thing "odd" is you. I have ceased discussing this issue with you, you get too emotional and make no sense.

Now, like most internet women, you have to include me into every internet discussion on some level even though I am not around.

As I told you in another more private discussion I am performing concert dates in several states, I sing Yusif Islam tunes, one of my favorite artists is Anila Quayyum Agha who is inspired by traditional Islamic architectural motifs, I am busy showing my photographs and other art work in various galleries and I wash my feet in the sinks of public rest rooms even thought it is prohibited by law.

If anything, I follow skye, she is a woman of class and intelligence, indeed, rare qualities on this forum.


Let me be perfectly clear: I do to want to discuss anything with you. buzz off.


----------



## MaryL

Some people  sunburn easily. Putting a bag over 90% of your body works better than sun block, I suppose. Why bother going to the beach? Why not just a hot bath alone? Ok. I have never seen  anyone in a burkini. It defeats the purpose. So, do NON Muslim women get to swim in bikinis in Saudi Arabia? Or are non Muslims  even allow questioning sharia law in a Muslim country?


----------



## skye

Sunbathing in a burkini.


----------



## Alex.

MaryL said:


> Some people  sunburn easily. Putting a bag over 90% of your body works better than sun block, I suppose. Why bother going to the beach? Why not just a hot bath alone? Ok. I have never seen  anyone in a burkini. It defeats the purpose. So, do NON Muslim women get to swim in bikinis in Saudi Arabia? Or are non Muslims  even allow questioning sharia law in a Muslim country?


"Women are not allowed to use public swimming pools available to men and can only swim in private ones or female-only gyms and spas. Reuters editor Arlene Getz describes her experience of trying to use the gym and pool at an upmarket Riyadh hotel: "As a woman, I wasn't even allowed to look at them ('there are men in swimsuits there,' a hotel staffer told me with horror) - let alone use them."

Nine things women can't do in Saudi Arabia


Who gnu?


----------



## StLucieBengal

skye said:


> Sunbathing in a burkini.




You are shaming the pedo prophet Mohammed....   These outfits are too tight and show too much form.    Black ghost wear only.


----------



## StLucieBengal

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> there is no need to try to be the resident thread nazi.
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't worry -- your role is safe from competition.
> 
> Your arguments strike me as much akin to those of pedophiles when it comes to their having sex with children, though. Now, I realize you don't really oppose that, either, but pedophiles also argue that it is the child's choice -- actually empowering to them just as you argue in cases of women under the yoke of Islam. You see, if pedophiles can start grooming children at a young enough age, they come to accept it as normal and by the time they are seven or eight, they will actually claim it is their choice. Similarly, in these Islamic cultures you love so much, girls are conditioned from a very young age -- groomed for their role just as thoroughly as the pedophiles groom children for sex. You do not worry about this exploitation, of course, since you are simply looking for an opportunity to call people a bigot or an Islamophobe or a racist since that makes you feel good about yourself, but you are propping up an entire system of degradation here.
> 
> Calling these symbols of female subservience a "choice" is simply one of those ruses you use time and time again to invert the true nature of what you actually support.  A women who has been groomed from the time she was a child to say it is her "choice" is no different than an 8 year old saying her having sex with a 42 year old man is hers. The same type of grooming is involved.
Click to expand...


Fantastic post.


----------



## Coyote

skye said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tilly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.
> 
> We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.
> 
> The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.
> 
> Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.
> 
> There is no point in carrying on and talking any  more   about feminist and women's  rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.
> 
> This is a different topic entirely.
> 
> 
> 
> She is missing the point on purpose, as usual. A recent poll in France showed only 6% support women wearing the burkini. It's not difficult to understand why it's an issue in SECULAR France, as you say.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are being an idiot, as usual.  Its about free choice.  No one is forcing a woman to wear it and no one is forcing a woman to not wear it.  It's a free country.  In theory.  That 6% who support it can wear it.  No one else has to
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, the dress code is not necessarily part of "radicalism" - that's where you're off.  What you are insisting on is that woman must bare their bodies in defiance of their beliefs because their dress OFFENDS you and you don't want to see anyone who is visibly Muslim.
> 
> Feminism and OPPRESSION of women was part of the discussion from the beginning and one of the rationales used - you must have missed that part.
> 
> When citizens of a free and open country accept laws and limitations to their freedom - for example, like the Patriot Act in the US - it's done so for reasons national security or public safety or standards of decency.  It's not done because people are offended by the site of Muslim woman who chooses to dress according to her religion.  *It's especially not done in such a way that explicitly discriminates against one religion, even when other religions impose similar dress codes on their followers*.
> 
> I'm just wondering what makes this any different then laws in far less open and free countries that mandate a woman completely cover herself in a garment resembling an oversized trash bag.  The truth is there is no difference - you're removing from the woman, her right to choose and mandating that she must wear what you think is appropriate.
> 
> "Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd.
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I have tried to explain to you the reasons why these Islamic women's clothes are offensive, disturbing and even frightening for people  in many Western countries. For example in nine European countries there is talk of banning them to some extent.
> 
> Once again the reasons are to do with the expression of Islamic fundamentalism and  even defiance caused by wearing them.
> 
> It's got nothing to do with the patriot act in the US whatsoever.....patriot act? WTF?
> 
> If a country like France chooses to pass a law banning the wearing of the burkini it is totally entitled  to do so   and more power to them!  There is no point babbling on about feminist rights regarding freedom of what to wear.
> 
> It is not up to a Muslim woman to maintain that  she must obey fundamental Islam or Sharia Law in her new country.
> 
> She must be expected to fit in with the French Law instead of the French Law and Culture being expected to fit in with her and with the Islamic way of doing things.
> 
> You seem to be very inclined to defend the rights of these Muslim fundamentalists women.....who enjoy more rights, freedoms and a much superior way of life than they ever could have   imagine  in their home countries where they are often subjected to horrible treatment as you must know.
> 
> Why don't you go over to an Arab  country and see what you can do about allowing them freedom of dress and allowing them to wear the burkini.
> 
> The end result would be at best you would be thrown into prison and deported or at worst something really horrible would happen to you.
> 
> If you are really so intent on protecting the freedoms of the Muslim women you should really think about  going there to these Arab countries,where your constant demands for women's freedom would be much more appreciate  and appropriate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, your channeling claim is completely wrong and offensive.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The only thing I'm defending is 1) the right of women to wear what they wish and 2) religious freedom.
> 
> We aren't talking burkas and niqab's. We aren't talking about covering the face.
> 
> Is it so hard to accept that some women prefer to cover their bodies?
> 
> So, once you decide to outlaw benign religious expressions, where are you going to stop?  What are you going to do with Orthodox Jewish women who wear the same clothing - ban them from wearing it?  Or, are some religions allowed to "defy" this new expession of "frenchness" that mandates women's clothing?
> 
> You have a point if you are talking about clothing that covers faces but otherwise, that video of a group of french policemen standing over a woman and forcing her to disrobe is blatently disturbing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I can't agree with most of your points because they really aren't relevant.
> 
> But seriously it is not expected that you travel to an Arab country  as I mentioned, to defend these women freedoms ,which amount to almost zero.
> 
> Why don't you start a new thread criticizing these complete lack of freedoms in the Arab countries and I will be glad to join in with you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nice deflection Skye/Alex but this isn't a thread about women in unfree countries but women in a free country.  Every point I made has been brought up by others already in this thread so there is no need to try to be the resident thread nazi.
> 
> Most laws concerning dress codes involve minimum standards for decency or security.  In a free country, we see dress run the gamut and reflective of the diversity of the population.
> 
> Now, suddenly, there is a law mandating women dress to a more minimal standard - more minimal then they feel is modest on a public beach.  Who cares what they wear?
> 
> I notice you don't say anything about the pictures of the policeMEN, standing over that poor woman and forcing her to disrobe in public.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> This is getting absolutely ridiculous and you keep repeating yourself.
> 
> I don't agree with anything you say  and further more your pathetic claim that I sound like somebody else meaning that someone else is writing my posts  is completely false and really, as a moderator you should be more moderate and not make such claims from nowhere.
> 
> This claim does you no credit whatsoever!
Click to expand...


You have a reputation for channeling Alex - this isn't the first time here that someone called you on it and that someone then was not me, so don't be silly.  When your posts are totally out of character for you in grammar, wording etc then don't be surprised when you are called on it.

As for what I'm posting - you're attempting to control the thread by limiting the topic to your desires.

Do you think it was appropriate for the policemen to force the woman to disrobe on the beach?


----------



## Coyote

Dogmaphobe said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> there is no need to try to be the resident thread nazi.
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't worry -- your role is safe from competition.
> 
> Your arguments strike me as much akin to those of pedophiles when it comes to their having sex with children, though. Now, I realize you don't really oppose that, either, but pedophiles also argue that it is the child's choice -- actually empowering to them just as you argue in cases of women under the yoke of Islam. You see, if pedophiles can start grooming children at a young enough age, they come to accept it as normal and by the time they are seven or eight, they will actually claim it is their choice. Similarly, in these Islamic cultures you love so much, girls are conditioned from a very young age -- groomed for their role just as thoroughly as the pedophiles groom children for sex. You do not worry about this exploitation, of course, since you are simply looking for an opportunity to call people a bigot or an Islamophobe or a racist since that makes you feel good about yourself, but you are propping up an entire system of degradation here.
> 
> Calling these symbols of female subservience a "choice" is simply one of those ruses you use time and time again to invert the true nature of what you actually support.  A women who has been groomed from the time she was a child to say it is her "choice" is no different than an 8 year old saying her having sex with a 42 year old man is hers. The same type of grooming is invo
Click to expand...




StLucieBengal said:


> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think that they're trying to liberate them and I accept that. But many of these people are in transition. I suggest that we just be patient. Burkinis are only a recent invention.
> 
> Greg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Burkini's also allow women who might not otherwise get out to enjoy the beach, out and enjoying the beach.  And what people don't realize, it's not just Muslim women who face this problem and it's not just Muslim women who are impacted by these sorts of decisions.
> 
> The challenges of exercising for some Muslim and Orthodox Jewish women
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There is a lot of partial nudity on the beaches of France, especially along the Mediterranean.  Many women go topless.  I wonder that conservative Muslim women would be comfortable in such an atmosphere.  I wonder why they would even want to be there.
> 
> I lived for 2 years in Turkey. I traveled around Turkey with Muslim women.  They go to the beach and wear bikinis, older women may wear one piece suits.  No one felt this was an offense to modesty.  It is not Islam that dictates something like the burkini.  It is oppressive cultural attitudes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Agree, it's cultural attitudes - but, who has the right to force them to where something they feel is dreadfully imodest?  Shouldn't it be her choice?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well, it isn't their culture.  If the French culture says you can't wear this outfit, we don't find it acceptable, then that's what you adhere to. I have lived in far more conservative Muslim countries than Turkey and I and other Western women are expected to conform to a certain level of modesty in public dress. We are not onlyy expected to, we are required to. Now, for me, an older woman, it is not really an issue, but young women simply cannot wear the kind of clothing, like mini skirts or tank tops, for instance, they would wear in the West
> 
> I find it extremelyy hypocritical that the Muslim women get so bent out of shape being required to abstain from certain dress when they are in the West, but expect Western women to adhere to their standards in Muslim countries.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> *This is where i am at...  Our women can't wear normal clothes over there so why on earth should we bend over backwards for their nonsense.     *
> 
> If our women need to put on a scarf and cover up all skin then when they Muslims come to the west they can wear tank tops and shorts.   And if it's that big of an issue for them then they can just not come.     Just as we can not go there if we don't wanna respect their ways.
Click to expand...


Precisely because we ARE NOT those countries we can allow women to choose to wear what they want.  We don't impose irrational standards on them.  Why do people seem to think we should be like those countries?


----------



## Coyote

Alex. said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Religions "ordain" many things.  Is the fact that Orthodox Jewish women keep their bodies and hair covered a "powerful symbol of their brutal 7th century religion" (though, it's much older than that)...or...is it free choice?
> 
> I'm sorry you do not like seeing women exercising their freedom of choice in a supposedly free western country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How can you possibly compare Judaism to Islam?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Easy.  They're both religions.  Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow.  In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles.  Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Judaism?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Islam?  Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As mentioned fundamental  Islam is the  religion   that ordains jihad against the non believers by any means which at the moment means terrorism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So why should we   and the French  people not be upset when these Islamic symbols  are constantly being forced upon us.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who forced you to wear a burkini?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's got nothing to do at all with women's freedom of choice. It all about NOT SUBMITTING TO ISLAM.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...let's get this straight.  You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's quite surprising that feminists don't acknowledge how brutally women are treated in Islam.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are not discussing feminist rights but about trying to stop the spread of this alien culture whose purpose is to take over the host country like a virus.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?
> 
> Geez.  So much for freedom.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.
> 
> *We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Actually, the dress code is not necessarily part of "radicalism" - that's where you're off.  What you are insisting on is that woman must bare their bodies in defiance of their beliefs because their dress OFFENDS you and you don't want to see anyone who is visibly Muslim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.
> 
> Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.
> 
> *There is no point in carrying on and talking any  more   about feminist and women's  rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.*
> 
> This is a different topic entirely.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Feminism and OPPRESSION of women was part of the discussion from the beginning and one of the rationales used - you must have missed that part.
> 
> When citizens of a free and open country accept laws and limitations to their freedom - for example, like the Patriot Act in the US - it's done so for reasons national security or public safety or standards of decency.  It's not done because people are offended by the site of Muslim woman who chooses to dress according to her religion.  *It's especially not done in such a way that explicitly discriminates against one religion, even when other religions impose similar dress codes on their followers*.
> 
> I'm just wondering what makes this any different then laws in far less open and free countries that mandate a woman completely cover herself in a garment resembling an oversized trash bag.  The truth is there is no difference - you're removing from the woman, her right to choose and mandating that she must wear what you think is appropriate.
> 
> "Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd.
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote: "Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd."
> 
> The only thing "odd" is you. I have ceased discussing this issue with you, you get too emotional and make no sense.
> 
> Now, like most internet women, you have to include me into every internet discussion on some level even though I am not around.
> 
> As I told you in another more private discussion I am performing concert dates in several states, I sing Yusif Islam tunes, one of my favorite artists is Anila Quayyum Agha who is inspired by traditional Islamic architectural motifs, I am busy showing my photographs and other art work in various galleries and I wash my feet in the sinks of public rest rooms even thought it is prohibited by law.
> 
> If anything, I follow skye, she is a woman of class and intelligence, indeed, rare qualities on this forum.
> 
> 
> Let me be perfectly clear: I do to want to discuss anything with you. buzz off.
Click to expand...


My goodness you are busy promoting yourself, is it ever not about you?

If you are going to write for Skye, try to use a different style, or at least match her own so it isn't so blatent.

My posts make perfect sense.  You don't seem to be able to come with a rational reason for forcing women to not wear certain clothing in a free society - a society, I might add where such a law *has never been imposed before and is now ruled unconstitutional*.  The answer most seem to be coming up with is - they are all oppressed and abused.  There is plenty of legitimate criticism in the way women are treated in some Islamic societies, along with other aspects of Islam - but this one is ridiculous.

At least you are debating directly and not using Skye as your mouth piece.


----------



## Dogmaphobe

StLucieBengal said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> there is no need to try to be the resident thread nazi.
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't worry -- your role is safe from competition.
> 
> Your arguments strike me as much akin to those of pedophiles when it comes to their having sex with children, though. Now, I realize you don't really oppose that, either, but pedophiles also argue that it is the child's choice -- actually empowering to them just as you argue in cases of women under the yoke of Islam. You see, if pedophiles can start grooming children at a young enough age, they come to accept it as normal and by the time they are seven or eight, they will actually claim it is their choice. Similarly, in these Islamic cultures you love so much, girls are conditioned from a very young age -- groomed for their role just as thoroughly as the pedophiles groom children for sex. You do not worry about this exploitation, of course, since you are simply looking for an opportunity to call people a bigot or an Islamophobe or a racist since that makes you feel good about yourself, but you are propping up an entire system of degradation here.
> 
> Calling these symbols of female subservience a "choice" is simply one of those ruses you use time and time again to invert the true nature of what you actually support.  A women who has been groomed from the time she was a child to say it is her "choice" is no different than an 8 year old saying her having sex with a 42 year old man is hers. The same type of grooming is involved.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Fantastic post.
Click to expand...



Thanks, man!


----------



## Alex.

Coyote said:


> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> How can you possibly compare Judaism to Islam?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Easy.  They're both religions.  Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow.  In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles.  Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Judaism?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Since when are we at war with Islam?  Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As mentioned fundamental  Islam is the  religion   that ordains jihad against the non believers by any means which at the moment means terrorism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So why should we   and the French  people not be upset when these Islamic symbols  are constantly being forced upon us.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who forced you to wear a burkini?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's got nothing to do at all with women's freedom of choice. It all about NOT SUBMITTING TO ISLAM.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...let's get this straight.  You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's quite surprising that feminists don't acknowledge how brutally women are treated in Islam.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are not discussing feminist rights but about trying to stop the spread of this alien culture whose purpose is to take over the host country like a virus.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?
> 
> Geez.  So much for freedom.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.
> 
> *We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Actually, the dress code is not necessarily part of "radicalism" - that's where you're off.  What you are insisting on is that woman must bare their bodies in defiance of their beliefs because their dress OFFENDS you and you don't want to see anyone who is visibly Muslim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.
> 
> Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.
> 
> *There is no point in carrying on and talking any  more   about feminist and women's  rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.*
> 
> This is a different topic entirely.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Feminism and OPPRESSION of women was part of the discussion from the beginning and one of the rationales used - you must have missed that part.
> 
> When citizens of a free and open country accept laws and limitations to their freedom - for example, like the Patriot Act in the US - it's done so for reasons national security or public safety or standards of decency.  It's not done because people are offended by the site of Muslim woman who chooses to dress according to her religion.  *It's especially not done in such a way that explicitly discriminates against one religion, even when other religions impose similar dress codes on their followers*.
> 
> I'm just wondering what makes this any different then laws in far less open and free countries that mandate a woman completely cover herself in a garment resembling an oversized trash bag.  The truth is there is no difference - you're removing from the woman, her right to choose and mandating that she must wear what you think is appropriate.
> 
> "Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd.
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote: "Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd."
> 
> The only thing "odd" is you. I have ceased discussing this issue with you, you get too emotional and make no sense.
> 
> Now, like most internet women, you have to include me into every internet discussion on some level even though I am not around.
> 
> As I told you in another more private discussion I am performing concert dates in several states, I sing Yusif Islam tunes, one of my favorite artists is Anila Quayyum Agha who is inspired by traditional Islamic architectural motifs, I am busy showing my photographs and other art work in various galleries and I wash my feet in the sinks of public rest rooms even thought it is prohibited by law.
> 
> If anything, I follow skye, she is a woman of class and intelligence, indeed, rare qualities on this forum.
> 
> 
> Let me be perfectly clear: I do to want to discuss anything with you. buzz off.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My goodness you are busy promoting yourself, is it ever not about you?
> 
> If you are going to write for Skye, try to use a different style, or at least match her own so it isn't so blatent.
> 
> My posts make perfect sense.  You don't seem to be able to come with a rational reason for forcing women to not wear certain clothing in a free society - a society, I might add where such a law *has never been imposed before and is now ruled unconstitutional*.  The answer most seem to be coming up with is - they are all oppressed and abused.  There is plenty of legitimate criticism in the way women are treated in some Islamic societies, along with other aspects of Islam - but this one is ridiculous.
> 
> At least you are debating directly and not using Skye as your mouth piece.
Click to expand...

That is disgusting...I do not use skye's mouth for anything.


----------



## Coyote

Alex. said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Easy.  They're both religions.  Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow.  In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles.  Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.
> 
> Since when are we at war with Islam?  Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.
> 
> Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.
> 
> Who forced you to wear a burkini?
> 
> So...let's get this straight.  You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?
> 
> Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.
> 
> So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?
> 
> Geez.  So much for freedom.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.
> 
> *We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Actually, the dress code is not necessarily part of "radicalism" - that's where you're off.  What you are insisting on is that woman must bare their bodies in defiance of their beliefs because their dress OFFENDS you and you don't want to see anyone who is visibly Muslim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.
> 
> Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.
> 
> *There is no point in carrying on and talking any  more   about feminist and women's  rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.*
> 
> This is a different topic entirely.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Feminism and OPPRESSION of women was part of the discussion from the beginning and one of the rationales used - you must have missed that part.
> 
> When citizens of a free and open country accept laws and limitations to their freedom - for example, like the Patriot Act in the US - it's done so for reasons national security or public safety or standards of decency.  It's not done because people are offended by the site of Muslim woman who chooses to dress according to her religion.  *It's especially not done in such a way that explicitly discriminates against one religion, even when other religions impose similar dress codes on their followers*.
> 
> I'm just wondering what makes this any different then laws in far less open and free countries that mandate a woman completely cover herself in a garment resembling an oversized trash bag.  The truth is there is no difference - you're removing from the woman, her right to choose and mandating that she must wear what you think is appropriate.
> 
> "Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd.
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote: "Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd."
> 
> The only thing "odd" is you. I have ceased discussing this issue with you, you get too emotional and make no sense.
> 
> Now, like most internet women, you have to include me into every internet discussion on some level even though I am not around.
> 
> As I told you in another more private discussion I am performing concert dates in several states, I sing Yusif Islam tunes, one of my favorite artists is Anila Quayyum Agha who is inspired by traditional Islamic architectural motifs, I am busy showing my photographs and other art work in various galleries and I wash my feet in the sinks of public rest rooms even thought it is prohibited by law.
> 
> If anything, I follow skye, she is a woman of class and intelligence, indeed, rare qualities on this forum.
> 
> 
> Let me be perfectly clear: I do to want to discuss anything with you. buzz off.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My goodness you are busy promoting yourself, is it ever not about you?
> 
> If you are going to write for Skye, try to use a different style, or at least match her own so it isn't so blatent.
> 
> My posts make perfect sense.  You don't seem to be able to come with a rational reason for forcing women to not wear certain clothing in a free society - a society, I might add where such a law *has never been imposed before and is now ruled unconstitutional*.  The answer most seem to be coming up with is - they are all oppressed and abused.  There is plenty of legitimate criticism in the way women are treated in some Islamic societies, along with other aspects of Islam - but this one is ridiculous.
> 
> At least you are debating directly and not using Skye as your mouth piece.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is disgusting...I do not use skye's mouth for anything.
Click to expand...



So you, and everyone here is supporting a law that has since been ruled unconstitutional.  And yet you still support it.

Do you support those policemen forcing the woman to disrobe on a public beach?


----------



## StLucieBengal

Coyote said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tilly said:
> 
> 
> 
> She is missing the point on purpose, as usual. A recent poll in France showed only 6% support women wearing the burkini. It's not difficult to understand why it's an issue in SECULAR France, as you say.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are being an idiot, as usual.  Its about free choice.  No one is forcing a woman to wear it and no one is forcing a woman to not wear it.  It's a free country.  In theory.  That 6% who support it can wear it.  No one else has to
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have tried to explain to you the reasons why these Islamic women's clothes are offensive, disturbing and even frightening for people  in many Western countries. For example in nine European countries there is talk of banning them to some extent.
> 
> Once again the reasons are to do with the expression of Islamic fundamentalism and  even defiance caused by wearing them.
> 
> It's got nothing to do with the patriot act in the US whatsoever.....patriot act? WTF?
> 
> If a country like France chooses to pass a law banning the wearing of the burkini it is totally entitled  to do so   and more power to them!  There is no point babbling on about feminist rights regarding freedom of what to wear.
> 
> It is not up to a Muslim woman to maintain that  she must obey fundamental Islam or Sharia Law in her new country.
> 
> She must be expected to fit in with the French Law instead of the French Law and Culture being expected to fit in with her and with the Islamic way of doing things.
> 
> You seem to be very inclined to defend the rights of these Muslim fundamentalists women.....who enjoy more rights, freedoms and a much superior way of life than they ever could have   imagine  in their home countries where they are often subjected to horrible treatment as you must know.
> 
> Why don't you go over to an Arab  country and see what you can do about allowing them freedom of dress and allowing them to wear the burkini.
> 
> The end result would be at best you would be thrown into prison and deported or at worst something really horrible would happen to you.
> 
> If you are really so intent on protecting the freedoms of the Muslim women you should really think about  going there to these Arab countries,where your constant demands for women's freedom would be much more appreciate  and appropriate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, your channeling claim is completely wrong and offensive.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The only thing I'm defending is 1) the right of women to wear what they wish and 2) religious freedom.
> 
> We aren't talking burkas and niqab's. We aren't talking about covering the face.
> 
> Is it so hard to accept that some women prefer to cover their bodies?
> 
> So, once you decide to outlaw benign religious expressions, where are you going to stop?  What are you going to do with Orthodox Jewish women who wear the same clothing - ban them from wearing it?  Or, are some religions allowed to "defy" this new expession of "frenchness" that mandates women's clothing?
> 
> You have a point if you are talking about clothing that covers faces but otherwise, that video of a group of french policemen standing over a woman and forcing her to disrobe is blatently disturbing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I can't agree with most of your points because they really aren't relevant.
> 
> But seriously it is not expected that you travel to an Arab country  as I mentioned, to defend these women freedoms ,which amount to almost zero.
> 
> Why don't you start a new thread criticizing these complete lack of freedoms in the Arab countries and I will be glad to join in with you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nice deflection Skye/Alex but this isn't a thread about women in unfree countries but women in a free country.  Every point I made has been brought up by others already in this thread so there is no need to try to be the resident thread nazi.
> 
> Most laws concerning dress codes involve minimum standards for decency or security.  In a free country, we see dress run the gamut and reflective of the diversity of the population.
> 
> Now, suddenly, there is a law mandating women dress to a more minimal standard - more minimal then they feel is modest on a public beach.  Who cares what they wear?
> 
> I notice you don't say anything about the pictures of the policeMEN, standing over that poor woman and forcing her to disrobe in public.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> This is getting absolutely ridiculous and you keep repeating yourself.
> 
> I don't agree with anything you say  and further more your pathetic claim that I sound like somebody else meaning that someone else is writing my posts  is completely false and really, as a moderator you should be more moderate and not make such claims from nowhere.
> 
> This claim does you no credit whatsoever!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You have a reputation for channeling Alex - this isn't the first time here that someone called you on it and that someone then was not me, so don't be silly.  When your posts are totally out of character for you in grammar, wording etc then don't be surprised when you are called on it.
> 
> As for what I'm posting - you're attempting to control the thread by limiting the topic to your desires.
> 
> Do you think it was appropriate for the policemen to force the woman to disrobe on the beach?
Click to expand...



Yes I do.   As long as the violator was given the opportunity to either take off her burqa or leave the beach.  

I doubt the police just walked up and tried to strip her.     I am sure she gave some Muslim bs and wasn't friendly to the police.

Edit:   This reminds me of when we go back to visit my in laws in Belarus.   You are not allowed to take photos in the metro area.    We do try and sneak a photo now and again because there is some fantastic art on the walls.    But the police have caught us and they have the opportunity to take my phone but typically they just ask that we delete the photos and then ask to see us delete them.      We do this because we respect their way of doing things.   I don't grandstand that I am an American and I demand whatever I wish.


----------



## skye

Coyote said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tilly said:
> 
> 
> 
> She is missing the point on purpose, as usual. A recent poll in France showed only 6% support women wearing the burkini. It's not difficult to understand why it's an issue in SECULAR France, as you say.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are being an idiot, as usual.  Its about free choice.  No one is forcing a woman to wear it and no one is forcing a woman to not wear it.  It's a free country.  In theory.  That 6% who support it can wear it.  No one else has to
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have tried to explain to you the reasons why these Islamic women's clothes are offensive, disturbing and even frightening for people  in many Western countries. For example in nine European countries there is talk of banning them to some extent.
> 
> Once again the reasons are to do with the expression of Islamic fundamentalism and  even defiance caused by wearing them.
> 
> It's got nothing to do with the patriot act in the US whatsoever.....patriot act? WTF?
> 
> If a country like France chooses to pass a law banning the wearing of the burkini it is totally entitled  to do so   and more power to them!  There is no point babbling on about feminist rights regarding freedom of what to wear.
> 
> It is not up to a Muslim woman to maintain that  she must obey fundamental Islam or Sharia Law in her new country.
> 
> She must be expected to fit in with the French Law instead of the French Law and Culture being expected to fit in with her and with the Islamic way of doing things.
> 
> You seem to be very inclined to defend the rights of these Muslim fundamentalists women.....who enjoy more rights, freedoms and a much superior way of life than they ever could have   imagine  in their home countries where they are often subjected to horrible treatment as you must know.
> 
> Why don't you go over to an Arab  country and see what you can do about allowing them freedom of dress and allowing them to wear the burkini.
> 
> The end result would be at best you would be thrown into prison and deported or at worst something really horrible would happen to you.
> 
> If you are really so intent on protecting the freedoms of the Muslim women you should really think about  going there to these Arab countries,where your constant demands for women's freedom would be much more appreciate  and appropriate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, your channeling claim is completely wrong and offensive.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The only thing I'm defending is 1) the right of women to wear what they wish and 2) religious freedom.
> 
> We aren't talking burkas and niqab's. We aren't talking about covering the face.
> 
> Is it so hard to accept that some women prefer to cover their bodies?
> 
> So, once you decide to outlaw benign religious expressions, where are you going to stop?  What are you going to do with Orthodox Jewish women who wear the same clothing - ban them from wearing it?  Or, are some religions allowed to "defy" this new expession of "frenchness" that mandates women's clothing?
> 
> You have a point if you are talking about clothing that covers faces but otherwise, that video of a group of french policemen standing over a woman and forcing her to disrobe is blatently disturbing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I can't agree with most of your points because they really aren't relevant.
> 
> But seriously it is not expected that you travel to an Arab country  as I mentioned, to defend these women freedoms ,which amount to almost zero.
> 
> Why don't you start a new thread criticizing these complete lack of freedoms in the Arab countries and I will be glad to join in with you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nice deflection Skye/Alex but this isn't a thread about women in unfree countries but women in a free country.  Every point I made has been brought up by others already in this thread so there is no need to try to be the resident thread nazi.
> 
> Most laws concerning dress codes involve minimum standards for decency or security.  In a free country, we see dress run the gamut and reflective of the diversity of the population.
> 
> Now, suddenly, there is a law mandating women dress to a more minimal standard - more minimal then they feel is modest on a public beach.  Who cares what they wear?
> 
> I notice you don't say anything about the pictures of the policeMEN, standing over that poor woman and forcing her to disrobe in public.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> This is getting absolutely ridiculous and you keep repeating yourself.
> 
> I don't agree with anything you say  and further more your pathetic claim that I sound like somebody else meaning that someone else is writing my posts  is completely false and really, as a moderator you should be more moderate and not make such claims from nowhere.
> 
> This claim does you no credit whatsoever!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You have a reputation for channeling Alex - this isn't the first time here that someone called you on it and that someone then was not me, so don't be silly.  When your posts are totally out of character for you in grammar, wording etc then don't be surprised when you are called on it.
> 
> As for what I'm posting - you're attempting to control the thread by limiting the topic to your desires.
> 
> Do you think it was appropriate for the policemen to force the woman to disrobe on the beach?
Click to expand...



In a forum, when a poster complains   of another person's  grammar or spelling, is a sign  that he/she has given up on the argument. But, if complaining makes you happy, hey, whatever rocks your boat! 



Now, when it comes to the action of the policeman......all I can say to you is  this: - Here we go again!

I have made my position clear page after page and if you only want to repeat yourself ....go ahead.....personally I am tired and   frankly a bit bored to go over this with you,again and again.

As I can not agree with you and you won't agree with me regarding this topic. it does seem a complete waste of time to continue repeating ourselves forever.

Life is too short to waste it like this!


----------



## StLucieBengal

Coyote said:


> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.
> 
> *We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, the dress code is not necessarily part of "radicalism" - that's where you're off.  What you are insisting on is that woman must bare their bodies in defiance of their beliefs because their dress OFFENDS you and you don't want to see anyone who is visibly Muslim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.
> 
> Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.
> 
> *There is no point in carrying on and talking any  more   about feminist and women's  rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.*
> 
> This is a different topic entirely.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Feminism and OPPRESSION of women was part of the discussion from the beginning and one of the rationales used - you must have missed that part.
> 
> When citizens of a free and open country accept laws and limitations to their freedom - for example, like the Patriot Act in the US - it's done so for reasons national security or public safety or standards of decency.  It's not done because people are offended by the site of Muslim woman who chooses to dress according to her religion.  *It's especially not done in such a way that explicitly discriminates against one religion, even when other religions impose similar dress codes on their followers*.
> 
> I'm just wondering what makes this any different then laws in far less open and free countries that mandate a woman completely cover herself in a garment resembling an oversized trash bag.  The truth is there is no difference - you're removing from the woman, her right to choose and mandating that she must wear what you think is appropriate.
> 
> "Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd.
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote: "Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd."
> 
> The only thing "odd" is you. I have ceased discussing this issue with you, you get too emotional and make no sense.
> 
> Now, like most internet women, you have to include me into every internet discussion on some level even though I am not around.
> 
> As I told you in another more private discussion I am performing concert dates in several states, I sing Yusif Islam tunes, one of my favorite artists is Anila Quayyum Agha who is inspired by traditional Islamic architectural motifs, I am busy showing my photographs and other art work in various galleries and I wash my feet in the sinks of public rest rooms even thought it is prohibited by law.
> 
> If anything, I follow skye, she is a woman of class and intelligence, indeed, rare qualities on this forum.
> 
> 
> Let me be perfectly clear: I do to want to discuss anything with you. buzz off.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My goodness you are busy promoting yourself, is it ever not about you?
> 
> If you are going to write for Skye, try to use a different style, or at least match her own so it isn't so blatent.
> 
> My posts make perfect sense.  You don't seem to be able to come with a rational reason for forcing women to not wear certain clothing in a free society - a society, I might add where such a law *has never been imposed before and is now ruled unconstitutional*.  The answer most seem to be coming up with is - they are all oppressed and abused.  There is plenty of legitimate criticism in the way women are treated in some Islamic societies, along with other aspects of Islam - but this one is ridiculous.
> 
> At least you are debating directly and not using Skye as your mouth piece.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is disgusting...I do not use skye's mouth for anything.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> So you, and everyone here is supporting a law that has since been ruled unconstitutional.  And yet you still support it.
> 
> Do you support those policemen forcing the woman to disrobe on a public beach?
Click to expand...



How can a temporary ban be a law?  And it's only been flipped in 1 out of 31 cities.


----------



## Coyote

StLucieBengal said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are being an idiot, as usual.  Its about free choice.  No one is forcing a woman to wear it and no one is forcing a woman to not wear it.  It's a free country.  In theory.  That 6% who support it can wear it.  No one else has to
> The only thing I'm defending is 1) the right of women to wear what they wish and 2) religious freedom.
> 
> We aren't talking burkas and niqab's. We aren't talking about covering the face.
> 
> Is it so hard to accept that some women prefer to cover their bodies?
> 
> So, once you decide to outlaw benign religious expressions, where are you going to stop?  What are you going to do with Orthodox Jewish women who wear the same clothing - ban them from wearing it?  Or, are some religions allowed to "defy" this new expession of "frenchness" that mandates women's clothing?
> 
> You have a point if you are talking about clothing that covers faces but otherwise, that video of a group of french policemen standing over a woman and forcing her to disrobe is blatently disturbing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can't agree with most of your points because they really aren't relevant.
> 
> But seriously it is not expected that you travel to an Arab country  as I mentioned, to defend these women freedoms ,which amount to almost zero.
> 
> Why don't you start a new thread criticizing these complete lack of freedoms in the Arab countries and I will be glad to join in with you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nice deflection Skye/Alex but this isn't a thread about women in unfree countries but women in a free country.  Every point I made has been brought up by others already in this thread so there is no need to try to be the resident thread nazi.
> 
> Most laws concerning dress codes involve minimum standards for decency or security.  In a free country, we see dress run the gamut and reflective of the diversity of the population.
> 
> Now, suddenly, there is a law mandating women dress to a more minimal standard - more minimal then they feel is modest on a public beach.  Who cares what they wear?
> 
> I notice you don't say anything about the pictures of the policeMEN, standing over that poor woman and forcing her to disrobe in public.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> This is getting absolutely ridiculous and you keep repeating yourself.
> 
> I don't agree with anything you say  and further more your pathetic claim that I sound like somebody else meaning that someone else is writing my posts  is completely false and really, as a moderator you should be more moderate and not make such claims from nowhere.
> 
> This claim does you no credit whatsoever!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You have a reputation for channeling Alex - this isn't the first time here that someone called you on it and that someone then was not me, so don't be silly.  When your posts are totally out of character for you in grammar, wording etc then don't be surprised when you are called on it.
> 
> As for what I'm posting - you're attempting to control the thread by limiting the topic to your desires.
> 
> Do you think it was appropriate for the policemen to force the woman to disrobe on the beach?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes I do.   As long as the violator was given the opportunity to either take off her burqa or leave the beach.
> 
> I doubt the police just walked up and tried to strip her.     I am sure she gave some Muslim bs and wasn't friendly to the police.
Click to expand...


She looked very intimidated.  If they forced a Jewish woman to do the same (Orthodox Jews have very similar rules on modesty and women) - would you accuse her of giving some "Jewish bs" and not being friendly to the police or would you be appropriately outraged at this?  How about a Mennonite woman? (though I doubt there are any in France).  There are however traditional Muslims and Orthodox Jews.


----------



## StLucieBengal

Coyote said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can't agree with most of your points because they really aren't relevant.
> 
> But seriously it is not expected that you travel to an Arab country  as I mentioned, to defend these women freedoms ,which amount to almost zero.
> 
> Why don't you start a new thread criticizing these complete lack of freedoms in the Arab countries and I will be glad to join in with you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nice deflection Skye/Alex but this isn't a thread about women in unfree countries but women in a free country.  Every point I made has been brought up by others already in this thread so there is no need to try to be the resident thread nazi.
> 
> Most laws concerning dress codes involve minimum standards for decency or security.  In a free country, we see dress run the gamut and reflective of the diversity of the population.
> 
> Now, suddenly, there is a law mandating women dress to a more minimal standard - more minimal then they feel is modest on a public beach.  Who cares what they wear?
> 
> I notice you don't say anything about the pictures of the policeMEN, standing over that poor woman and forcing her to disrobe in public.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> This is getting absolutely ridiculous and you keep repeating yourself.
> 
> I don't agree with anything you say  and further more your pathetic claim that I sound like somebody else meaning that someone else is writing my posts  is completely false and really, as a moderator you should be more moderate and not make such claims from nowhere.
> 
> This claim does you no credit whatsoever!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You have a reputation for channeling Alex - this isn't the first time here that someone called you on it and that someone then was not me, so don't be silly.  When your posts are totally out of character for you in grammar, wording etc then don't be surprised when you are called on it.
> 
> As for what I'm posting - you're attempting to control the thread by limiting the topic to your desires.
> 
> Do you think it was appropriate for the policemen to force the woman to disrobe on the beach?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes I do.   As long as the violator was given the opportunity to either take off her burqa or leave the beach.
> 
> I doubt the police just walked up and tried to strip her.     I am sure she gave some Muslim bs and wasn't friendly to the police.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> She looked very intimidated.  If they forced a Jewish woman to do the same (Orthodox Jews have very similar rules on modesty and women) - would you accuse her of giving some "Jewish bs" and not being friendly to the police or would you be appropriately outraged at this?  How about a Mennonite woman? (though I doubt there are any in France).  There are however traditional Muslims and Orthodox Jews.
Click to expand...


well here you go comparing Muslims and Jews again lol.  

Jews have never went on a massive global killing and rape spree.    

Compare apples to apples please.    

Btw Jewish dress isn't even in the same realm as Muslim dress.


----------



## StLucieBengal

Coyote said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can't agree with most of your points because they really aren't relevant.
> 
> But seriously it is not expected that you travel to an Arab country  as I mentioned, to defend these women freedoms ,which amount to almost zero.
> 
> Why don't you start a new thread criticizing these complete lack of freedoms in the Arab countries and I will be glad to join in with you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nice deflection Skye/Alex but this isn't a thread about women in unfree countries but women in a free country.  Every point I made has been brought up by others already in this thread so there is no need to try to be the resident thread nazi.
> 
> Most laws concerning dress codes involve minimum standards for decency or security.  In a free country, we see dress run the gamut and reflective of the diversity of the population.
> 
> Now, suddenly, there is a law mandating women dress to a more minimal standard - more minimal then they feel is modest on a public beach.  Who cares what they wear?
> 
> I notice you don't say anything about the pictures of the policeMEN, standing over that poor woman and forcing her to disrobe in public.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> This is getting absolutely ridiculous and you keep repeating yourself.
> 
> I don't agree with anything you say  and further more your pathetic claim that I sound like somebody else meaning that someone else is writing my posts  is completely false and really, as a moderator you should be more moderate and not make such claims from nowhere.
> 
> This claim does you no credit whatsoever!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You have a reputation for channeling Alex - this isn't the first time here that someone called you on it and that someone then was not me, so don't be silly.  When your posts are totally out of character for you in grammar, wording etc then don't be surprised when you are called on it.
> 
> As for what I'm posting - you're attempting to control the thread by limiting the topic to your desires.
> 
> Do you think it was appropriate for the policemen to force the woman to disrobe on the beach?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes I do.   As long as the violator was given the opportunity to either take off her burqa or leave the beach.
> 
> I doubt the police just walked up and tried to strip her.     I am sure she gave some Muslim bs and wasn't friendly to the police.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> She looked very intimidated.  If they forced a Jewish woman to do the same (Orthodox Jews have very similar rules on modesty and women) - would you accuse her of giving some "Jewish bs" and not being friendly to the police or would you be appropriately outraged at this?  How about a Mennonite woman? (though I doubt there are any in France).  There are however traditional Muslims and Orthodox Jews.
Click to expand...



All this lady had to do was go change into appropriate clothing or leave the beach.      

Same way I either had to show them I was deleting photos of the Metro or give up my phone.     

It's called respecting the country you reside.


----------



## Coyote

StLucieBengal said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, the dress code is not necessarily part of "radicalism" - that's where you're off.  What you are insisting on is that woman must bare their bodies in defiance of their beliefs because their dress OFFENDS you and you don't want to see anyone who is visibly Muslim.
> 
> Feminism and OPPRESSION of women was part of the discussion from the beginning and one of the rationales used - you must have missed that part.
> 
> When citizens of a free and open country accept laws and limitations to their freedom - for example, like the Patriot Act in the US - it's done so for reasons national security or public safety or standards of decency.  It's not done because people are offended by the site of Muslim woman who chooses to dress according to her religion.  *It's especially not done in such a way that explicitly discriminates against one religion, even when other religions impose similar dress codes on their followers*.
> 
> I'm just wondering what makes this any different then laws in far less open and free countries that mandate a woman completely cover herself in a garment resembling an oversized trash bag.  The truth is there is no difference - you're removing from the woman, her right to choose and mandating that she must wear what you think is appropriate.
> 
> "Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote: "Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd."
> 
> The only thing "odd" is you. I have ceased discussing this issue with you, you get too emotional and make no sense.
> 
> Now, like most internet women, you have to include me into every internet discussion on some level even though I am not around.
> 
> As I told you in another more private discussion I am performing concert dates in several states, I sing Yusif Islam tunes, one of my favorite artists is Anila Quayyum Agha who is inspired by traditional Islamic architectural motifs, I am busy showing my photographs and other art work in various galleries and I wash my feet in the sinks of public rest rooms even thought it is prohibited by law.
> 
> If anything, I follow skye, she is a woman of class and intelligence, indeed, rare qualities on this forum.
> 
> 
> Let me be perfectly clear: I do to want to discuss anything with you. buzz off.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My goodness you are busy promoting yourself, is it ever not about you?
> 
> If you are going to write for Skye, try to use a different style, or at least match her own so it isn't so blatent.
> 
> My posts make perfect sense.  You don't seem to be able to come with a rational reason for forcing women to not wear certain clothing in a free society - a society, I might add where such a law *has never been imposed before and is now ruled unconstitutional*.  The answer most seem to be coming up with is - they are all oppressed and abused.  There is plenty of legitimate criticism in the way women are treated in some Islamic societies, along with other aspects of Islam - but this one is ridiculous.
> 
> At least you are debating directly and not using Skye as your mouth piece.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is disgusting...I do not use skye's mouth for anything.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> So you, and everyone here is supporting a law that has since been ruled unconstitutional.  And yet you still support it.
> 
> Do you support those policemen forcing the woman to disrobe on a public beach?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> How can a temporary ban be a law?  And it's only been flipped in 1 out of 31 cities.
Click to expand...



http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/27/world/europe/france-burkini-ban.html


Burkini ban would be 'unconstitutional', says French minister


This is ridiculous - how is it any difference than the "morality police" of restrictive Islamic states?  This is "civilized"?

French police make woman remove clothing on Nice beach following burkini ban

The images of police confronting the woman in Nice on Tuesday *show at least four police officers standing over a woman *who was resting on the shore at the town’s Promenade des Anglais, the scene of last month’s Bastille Day lorry attack.

After they arrive, she appears to remove a blue long-sleeved tunic, although one of the officers appears to take notes or issue an on-the-spot fine.

The photographs emerged as a mother of two also told on Tuesday how she had been fined on the beach in nearby Cannes wearing leggings, a tunic and a headscarf.

Her ticket, seen by French news agency AFP, read that *she was not wearing “an outfit respecting good morals and secularism”.*

“I was sitting on a beach with my family,” said the 34-year-old who gave only her first name, Siam. “I was wearing a classic headscarf. I had no intention of swimming.”

*A witness to the scene, Mathilde Cousin, confirmed the incident. “The saddest thing was that people were shouting ‘go home’, some were applauding the police,” she said. “Her daughter was crying.”*​


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## Coyote

StLucieBengal said:


> Coyote said:
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> Nice deflection Skye/Alex but this isn't a thread about women in unfree countries but women in a free country.  Every point I made has been brought up by others already in this thread so there is no need to try to be the resident thread nazi.
> 
> Most laws concerning dress codes involve minimum standards for decency or security.  In a free country, we see dress run the gamut and reflective of the diversity of the population.
> 
> Now, suddenly, there is a law mandating women dress to a more minimal standard - more minimal then they feel is modest on a public beach.  Who cares what they wear?
> 
> I notice you don't say anything about the pictures of the policeMEN, standing over that poor woman and forcing her to disrobe in public.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is getting absolutely ridiculous and you keep repeating yourself.
> 
> I don't agree with anything you say  and further more your pathetic claim that I sound like somebody else meaning that someone else is writing my posts  is completely false and really, as a moderator you should be more moderate and not make such claims from nowhere.
> 
> This claim does you no credit whatsoever!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You have a reputation for channeling Alex - this isn't the first time here that someone called you on it and that someone then was not me, so don't be silly.  When your posts are totally out of character for you in grammar, wording etc then don't be surprised when you are called on it.
> 
> As for what I'm posting - you're attempting to control the thread by limiting the topic to your desires.
> 
> Do you think it was appropriate for the policemen to force the woman to disrobe on the beach?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes I do.   As long as the violator was given the opportunity to either take off her burqa or leave the beach.
> 
> I doubt the police just walked up and tried to strip her.     I am sure she gave some Muslim bs and wasn't friendly to the police.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> She looked very intimidated.  If they forced a Jewish woman to do the same (Orthodox Jews have very similar rules on modesty and women) - would you accuse her of giving some "Jewish bs" and not being friendly to the police or would you be appropriately outraged at this?  How about a Mennonite woman? (though I doubt there are any in France).  There are however traditional Muslims and Orthodox Jews.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> well here you go comparing Muslims and Jews again lol.
> 
> Jews have never went on a massive global killing and rape spree.
> 
> Compare apples to apples please.
> 
> Btw Jewish dress isn't even in the same realm as Muslim dress.
Click to expand...



Orthodox Jewish women and tratitional Muslim women have many of the same standards for women and modesty.  Pointing them out is pointing out the hypocrisy in your stance here - people don't seem to be able to tolerate it when it's pointed out that muslims aren't alone in dressing their women this way. And please don't bring up burkas - this isn't about burkas.

What women wear has NOTHING do with "massive global killing and rape sprees" - you're using that to punish Muslim women, and distract from the fact that this is an issue of women of a certain religion being allowed to dress as their religion dictates - and NO OTHER religion is similarly being targeted.

These women aren't engaging in "massive global killing and rape sprees" - they are just trying to enjoy a day at the beach with their families.


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## Coyote

The ultimate irony.....

I created the burkini to give women freedom, not to take it away | Aheda Zanetti

_The burkini does not symbolise Islam, it symbolises leisure and happiness and fitness and health. So who is better, the Taliban or French politicians?

When I invented the burkini in early 2004, it was to give women freedom, not to take it away. My niece wanted to play netball but it was a bit of a struggle to get her in the team – she was wearing a hijab. My sister had to fight for her daughter to play, had to debate the issue and ask, why is this girl prevented from playing netball because of her modesty?


When she was finally allowed to play we all went to watch her to support her and what she was wearing was totally inappropriate for a sports uniform – a skivvy, tracksuit pants, and her hijab, totally unsuitable for any type of sport. She looked like a tomato she was so red and hot!

So I went home and went looking for something that might be better for her to wear, sportswear for Muslim girls, and I couldn’t find anything, I knew there was nothing in Australia. It got me thinking because when I was a girl I missed out on sport – we didn’t participate in anything because we chose to be modest, but for my niece I wanted to find something that would adapt to the Australian lifestyle and western clothing but at the same time fulfil the needs of a Muslim girl...

...It was about integration and acceptance and being equal and about not being judged. It was difficult for us at the time, the Muslim community, they had a fear of stepping out. They had fear of going to public pools and beaches and so forth, and I wanted girls to have the confidence to continue a good life. Sport is so important, and we are Australian! I wanted to do something positive – and anyone can wear this, Christian, Jewish, Hindus. It’s just a garment to suit a modest person, or someone who has skin cancer, or a new mother who doesn’t want to wear a bikini, it’s not symbolising Islam._​


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## Coyote

skye said:


> Coyote said:
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> You are being an idiot, as usual.  Its about free choice.  No one is forcing a woman to wear it and no one is forcing a woman to not wear it.  It's a free country.  In theory.  That 6% who support it can wear it.  No one else has to
> The only thing I'm defending is 1) the right of women to wear what they wish and 2) religious freedom.
> 
> We aren't talking burkas and niqab's. We aren't talking about covering the face.
> 
> Is it so hard to accept that some women prefer to cover their bodies?
> 
> So, once you decide to outlaw benign religious expressions, where are you going to stop?  What are you going to do with Orthodox Jewish women who wear the same clothing - ban them from wearing it?  Or, are some religions allowed to "defy" this new expession of "frenchness" that mandates women's clothing?
> 
> You have a point if you are talking about clothing that covers faces but otherwise, that video of a group of french policemen standing over a woman and forcing her to disrobe is blatently disturbing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can't agree with most of your points because they really aren't relevant.
> 
> But seriously it is not expected that you travel to an Arab country  as I mentioned, to defend these women freedoms ,which amount to almost zero.
> 
> Why don't you start a new thread criticizing these complete lack of freedoms in the Arab countries and I will be glad to join in with you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nice deflection Skye/Alex but this isn't a thread about women in unfree countries but women in a free country.  Every point I made has been brought up by others already in this thread so there is no need to try to be the resident thread nazi.
> 
> Most laws concerning dress codes involve minimum standards for decency or security.  In a free country, we see dress run the gamut and reflective of the diversity of the population.
> 
> Now, suddenly, there is a law mandating women dress to a more minimal standard - more minimal then they feel is modest on a public beach.  Who cares what they wear?
> 
> I notice you don't say anything about the pictures of the policeMEN, standing over that poor woman and forcing her to disrobe in public.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> This is getting absolutely ridiculous and you keep repeating yourself.
> 
> I don't agree with anything you say  and further more your pathetic claim that I sound like somebody else meaning that someone else is writing my posts  is completely false and really, as a moderator you should be more moderate and not make such claims from nowhere.
> 
> This claim does you no credit whatsoever!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You have a reputation for channeling Alex - this isn't the first time here that someone called you on it and that someone then was not me, so don't be silly.  When your posts are totally out of character for you in grammar, wording etc then don't be surprised when you are called on it.
> 
> As for what I'm posting - you're attempting to control the thread by limiting the topic to your desires.
> 
> Do you think it was appropriate for the policemen to force the woman to disrobe on the beach?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> *In a forum, when a poster complains   of another person's  grammar or spelling, is a sign  that he/she has given up on the argument. But, if complaining makes you happy, hey, whatever rocks your boat! *
Click to expand...




I'm not complaining about your grammar or spelling - I'd be the LAST person to be a spelling Nazi.  I'm saying when you are channeling Alex - it all changes into a different style.



> Now, when it comes to the action of the policeman......all I can say to you is  this: - Here we go again!
> 
> I have made my position clear page after page and if you only want to repeat yourself ....go ahead.....personally I am tired and   frankly a bit bored to go over this with you,again and again.
> 
> As I can not agree with you and you won't agree with me regarding this topic. it does seem a complete waste of time to continue repeating ourselves forever.
> 
> Life is too short to waste it like this!



Life is short, have fun


----------



## Coyote

More views on the issue....

Seriously, What Orthodox Women Wear to the Beach Is No Different From a Burkini

_Moshe Sebbag, the rabbi of the Grand Synagogue of Paris, announced this week that he supports the French ban on burkinis, the modest swimwear some Muslim women wear to cover up on the beach.

Wearing a burkini, he said, is not “innocent” and it sends a message.

 But, we ask Sebbag, what difference exactly is there between the garb Orthodox Jewish women wear to the beach than the burkinis that some Muslim women wear?


And why should one religious group of women be allowed to follow their traditions over another?_​

Look at the photos...what's the difference in style?  Maybe, if some of those women didn't have to wear long dresses, but wore a burkini they could swim....have more fun...not have to stay out of the water?

Why we wear the burkini: five women on dressing modestly at the beach

Reasons given by 5 different women on why they prefer to wear it.


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## Coyote

StLucieBengal said:


> Coyote said:
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> skye said:
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> Coyote said:
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> 
> Nice deflection Skye/Alex but this isn't a thread about women in unfree countries but women in a free country.  Every point I made has been brought up by others already in this thread so there is no need to try to be the resident thread nazi.
> 
> Most laws concerning dress codes involve minimum standards for decency or security.  In a free country, we see dress run the gamut and reflective of the diversity of the population.
> 
> Now, suddenly, there is a law mandating women dress to a more minimal standard - more minimal then they feel is modest on a public beach.  Who cares what they wear?
> 
> I notice you don't say anything about the pictures of the policeMEN, standing over that poor woman and forcing her to disrobe in public.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is getting absolutely ridiculous and you keep repeating yourself.
> 
> I don't agree with anything you say  and further more your pathetic claim that I sound like somebody else meaning that someone else is writing my posts  is completely false and really, as a moderator you should be more moderate and not make such claims from nowhere.
> 
> This claim does you no credit whatsoever!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You have a reputation for channeling Alex - this isn't the first time here that someone called you on it and that someone then was not me, so don't be silly.  When your posts are totally out of character for you in grammar, wording etc then don't be surprised when you are called on it.
> 
> As for what I'm posting - you're attempting to control the thread by limiting the topic to your desires.
> 
> Do you think it was appropriate for the policemen to force the woman to disrobe on the beach?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes I do.   As long as the violator was given the opportunity to either take off her burqa or leave the beach.
> 
> I doubt the police just walked up and tried to strip her.     I am sure she gave some Muslim bs and wasn't friendly to the police.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> She looked very intimidated.  If they forced a Jewish woman to do the same (Orthodox Jews have very similar rules on modesty and women) - would you accuse her of giving some "Jewish bs" and not being friendly to the police or would you be appropriately outraged at this?  How about a Mennonite woman? (though I doubt there are any in France).  There are however traditional Muslims and Orthodox Jews.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> All this lady had to do was go change into appropriate clothing or leave the beach.
> 
> Same way I either had to show them I was deleting photos of the Metro or give up my phone.
> 
> It's called respecting the country you reside.
Click to expand...


Until it's unconstitutional.


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## Tilly

Alex. said:


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> Easy.  They're both religions.  Complex religions, with a lot of rules and laws to follow.  In their more conservative sects, women occupy quite traditional roles.  Judaism is the parent of Islam and Christianity.
> 
> Since when are we at war with Islam?  Far as I know, we, along with many others including Muslim countries are at war with extremists.
> 
> Which has nothing to do with women's freedom to dress as they choose.
> 
> Who forced you to wear a burkini?
> 
> So...let's get this straight.  You think it's ok to oppress women by forcing them to dress a certain way?
> 
> Real feminists recognize that women are treated brutally in many cultures, including traditional Islamic cultures, but removing from women their freedom to choose is just another form of subjugation even though you are convinced it's liberation.
> 
> So...you are saying that forcing women to dress the way YOU think is acceptable is somehow better than other countries forcing women to dress the way THEY think is acceptable?
> 
> Geez.  So much for freedom.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.
> 
> *We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Actually, the dress code is not necessarily part of "radicalism" - that's where you're off.  What you are insisting on is that woman must bare their bodies in defiance of their beliefs because their dress OFFENDS you and you don't want to see anyone who is visibly Muslim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.
> 
> Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.
> 
> *There is no point in carrying on and talking any  more   about feminist and women's  rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.*
> 
> This is a different topic entirely.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Feminism and OPPRESSION of women was part of the discussion from the beginning and one of the rationales used - you must have missed that part.
> 
> When citizens of a free and open country accept laws and limitations to their freedom - for example, like the Patriot Act in the US - it's done so for reasons national security or public safety or standards of decency.  It's not done because people are offended by the site of Muslim woman who chooses to dress according to her religion.  *It's especially not done in such a way that explicitly discriminates against one religion, even when other religions impose similar dress codes on their followers*.
> 
> I'm just wondering what makes this any different then laws in far less open and free countries that mandate a woman completely cover herself in a garment resembling an oversized trash bag.  The truth is there is no difference - you're removing from the woman, her right to choose and mandating that she must wear what you think is appropriate.
> 
> "Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd.
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote: "Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd."
> 
> The only thing "odd" is you. I have ceased discussing this issue with you, you get too emotional and make no sense.
> 
> Now, like most internet women, you have to include me into every internet discussion on some level even though I am not around.
> 
> As I told you in another more private discussion I am performing concert dates in several states, I sing Yusif Islam tunes, one of my favorite artists is Anila Quayyum Agha who is inspired by traditional Islamic architectural motifs, I am busy showing my photographs and other art work in various galleries and I wash my feet in the sinks of public rest rooms even thought it is prohibited by law.
> 
> If anything, I follow skye, she is a woman of class and intelligence, indeed, rare qualities on this forum.
> 
> 
> Let me be perfectly clear: I do to want to discuss anything with you. buzz off.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My goodness you are busy promoting yourself, is it ever not about you?
> 
> If you are going to write for Skye, try to use a different style, or at least match her own so it isn't so blatent.
> 
> My posts make perfect sense.  You don't seem to be able to come with a rational reason for forcing women to not wear certain clothing in a free society - a society, I might add where such a law *has never been imposed before and is now ruled unconstitutional*.  The answer most seem to be coming up with is - they are all oppressed and abused.  There is plenty of legitimate criticism in the way women are treated in some Islamic societies, along with other aspects of Islam - but this one is ridiculous.
> 
> At least you are debating directly and not using Skye as your mouth piece.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is disgusting...I do not use skye's mouth for anything.
Click to expand...

You probably remember I once accused you of writing skye's posts, Alex.  Since then I have seen skye write several lengthy and thoughtful posts, so I no longer believe that, and I apologise to you both for that silly accusation  Mea Culpa.


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## StLucieBengal

Coyote said:


> StLucieBengal said:
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> Coyote said:
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> Alex. said:
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> Coyote: "Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd."
> 
> The only thing "odd" is you. I have ceased discussing this issue with you, you get too emotional and make no sense.
> 
> Now, like most internet women, you have to include me into every internet discussion on some level even though I am not around.
> 
> As I told you in another more private discussion I am performing concert dates in several states, I sing Yusif Islam tunes, one of my favorite artists is Anila Quayyum Agha who is inspired by traditional Islamic architectural motifs, I am busy showing my photographs and other art work in various galleries and I wash my feet in the sinks of public rest rooms even thought it is prohibited by law.
> 
> If anything, I follow skye, she is a woman of class and intelligence, indeed, rare qualities on this forum.
> 
> 
> Let me be perfectly clear: I do to want to discuss anything with you. buzz off.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My goodness you are busy promoting yourself, is it ever not about you?
> 
> If you are going to write for Skye, try to use a different style, or at least match her own so it isn't so blatent.
> 
> My posts make perfect sense.  You don't seem to be able to come with a rational reason for forcing women to not wear certain clothing in a free society - a society, I might add where such a law *has never been imposed before and is now ruled unconstitutional*.  The answer most seem to be coming up with is - they are all oppressed and abused.  There is plenty of legitimate criticism in the way women are treated in some Islamic societies, along with other aspects of Islam - but this one is ridiculous.
> 
> At least you are debating directly and not using Skye as your mouth piece.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is disgusting...I do not use skye's mouth for anything.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> So you, and everyone here is supporting a law that has since been ruled unconstitutional.  And yet you still support it.
> 
> Do you support those policemen forcing the woman to disrobe on a public beach?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> How can a temporary ban be a law?  And it's only been flipped in 1 out of 31 cities.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/27/world/europe/france-burkini-ban.html
> 
> 
> Burkini ban would be 'unconstitutional', says French minister
> 
> 
> This is ridiculous - how is it any difference than the "morality police" of restrictive Islamic states?  This is "civilized"?
> 
> French police make woman remove clothing on Nice beach following burkini ban
> 
> The images of police confronting the woman in Nice on Tuesday *show at least four police officers standing over a woman *who was resting on the shore at the town’s Promenade des Anglais, the scene of last month’s Bastille Day lorry attack.
> 
> After they arrive, she appears to remove a blue long-sleeved tunic, although one of the officers appears to take notes or issue an on-the-spot fine.
> 
> The photographs emerged as a mother of two also told on Tuesday how she had been fined on the beach in nearby Cannes wearing leggings, a tunic and a headscarf.
> 
> Her ticket, seen by French news agency AFP, read that *she was not wearing “an outfit respecting good morals and secularism”.*
> 
> “I was sitting on a beach with my family,” said the 34-year-old who gave only her first name, Siam. “I was wearing a classic headscarf. I had no intention of swimming.”
> 
> *A witness to the scene, Mathilde Cousin, confirmed the incident. “The saddest thing was that people were shouting ‘go home’, some were applauding the police,” she said. “Her daughter was crying.”*​
Click to expand...




Coyote said:


> StLucieBengal said:
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> Coyote said:
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> Alex. said:
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> Coyote said:
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> Alex. said:
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> Coyote: "Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd."
> 
> The only thing "odd" is you. I have ceased discussing this issue with you, you get too emotional and make no sense.
> 
> Now, like most internet women, you have to include me into every internet discussion on some level even though I am not around.
> 
> As I told you in another more private discussion I am performing concert dates in several states, I sing Yusif Islam tunes, one of my favorite artists is Anila Quayyum Agha who is inspired by traditional Islamic architectural motifs, I am busy showing my photographs and other art work in various galleries and I wash my feet in the sinks of public rest rooms even thought it is prohibited by law.
> 
> If anything, I follow skye, she is a woman of class and intelligence, indeed, rare qualities on this forum.
> 
> 
> Let me be perfectly clear: I do to want to discuss anything with you. buzz off.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My goodness you are busy promoting yourself, is it ever not about you?
> 
> If you are going to write for Skye, try to use a different style, or at least match her own so it isn't so blatent.
> 
> My posts make perfect sense.  You don't seem to be able to come with a rational reason for forcing women to not wear certain clothing in a free society - a society, I might add where such a law *has never been imposed before and is now ruled unconstitutional*.  The answer most seem to be coming up with is - they are all oppressed and abused.  There is plenty of legitimate criticism in the way women are treated in some Islamic societies, along with other aspects of Islam - but this one is ridiculous.
> 
> At least you are debating directly and not using Skye as your mouth piece.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is disgusting...I do not use skye's mouth for anything.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> So you, and everyone here is supporting a law that has since been ruled unconstitutional.  And yet you still support it.
> 
> Do you support those policemen forcing the woman to disrobe on a public beach?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> How can a temporary ban be a law?  And it's only been flipped in 1 out of 31 cities.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/27/world/europe/france-burkini-ban.html
> 
> 
> Burkini ban would be 'unconstitutional', says French minister
> 
> 
> This is ridiculous - how is it any difference than the "morality police" of restrictive Islamic states?  This is "civilized"?
> 
> French police make woman remove clothing on Nice beach following burkini ban
> 
> The images of police confronting the woman in Nice on Tuesday *show at least four police officers standing over a woman *who was resting on the shore at the town’s Promenade des Anglais, the scene of last month’s Bastille Day lorry attack.
> 
> After they arrive, she appears to remove a blue long-sleeved tunic, although one of the officers appears to take notes or issue an on-the-spot fine.
> 
> The photographs emerged as a mother of two also told on Tuesday how she had been fined on the beach in nearby Cannes wearing leggings, a tunic and a headscarf.
> 
> Her ticket, seen by French news agency AFP, read that *she was not wearing “an outfit respecting good morals and secularism”.*
> 
> “I was sitting on a beach with my family,” said the 34-year-old who gave only her first name, Siam. “I was wearing a classic headscarf. I had no intention of swimming.”
> 
> *A witness to the scene, Mathilde Cousin, confirmed the incident. “The saddest thing was that people were shouting ‘go home’, some were applauding the police,” she said. “Her daughter was crying.”*​
Click to expand...



So let's unpack this ....  

1st link says 1 city was overturned.    That's exactly what I stated.  1 of 31

2nd link is just someone saying it might mean others could be flipped.    It also might rain tomorrow and there might be a giant space ship arrive.   

The third link is about a paranoid politician who is covering their rear end.    

Now on to the lady violating beach policy.    The police wrote her a ticket and asked her to change or leave.    She wasn't happy and gave an excuse.    Her daughter crying is irrelevant .... Kids cry when parents are confronted because they are scared.     I bet her daughter cries when she gets dominated by her husband or maybe her daughter is just scared because her father also dominates her along with any brothers she may have as well.


----------



## Coyote

StLucieBengal said:


> Coyote said:
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> StLucieBengal said:
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> Coyote said:
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> Alex. said:
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> 
> Coyote said:
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> 
> 
> My goodness you are busy promoting yourself, is it ever not about you?
> 
> If you are going to write for Skye, try to use a different style, or at least match her own so it isn't so blatent.
> 
> My posts make perfect sense.  You don't seem to be able to come with a rational reason for forcing women to not wear certain clothing in a free society - a society, I might add where such a law *has never been imposed before and is now ruled unconstitutional*.  The answer most seem to be coming up with is - they are all oppressed and abused.  There is plenty of legitimate criticism in the way women are treated in some Islamic societies, along with other aspects of Islam - but this one is ridiculous.
> 
> At least you are debating directly and not using Skye as your mouth piece.
> 
> 
> 
> That is disgusting...I do not use skye's mouth for anything.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> So you, and everyone here is supporting a law that has since been ruled unconstitutional.  And yet you still support it.
> 
> Do you support those policemen forcing the woman to disrobe on a public beach?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> How can a temporary ban be a law?  And it's only been flipped in 1 out of 31 cities.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/27/world/europe/france-burkini-ban.html
> 
> 
> Burkini ban would be 'unconstitutional', says French minister
> 
> 
> This is ridiculous - how is it any difference than the "morality police" of restrictive Islamic states?  This is "civilized"?
> 
> French police make woman remove clothing on Nice beach following burkini ban
> 
> The images of police confronting the woman in Nice on Tuesday *show at least four police officers standing over a woman *who was resting on the shore at the town’s Promenade des Anglais, the scene of last month’s Bastille Day lorry attack.
> 
> After they arrive, she appears to remove a blue long-sleeved tunic, although one of the officers appears to take notes or issue an on-the-spot fine.
> 
> The photographs emerged as a mother of two also told on Tuesday how she had been fined on the beach in nearby Cannes wearing leggings, a tunic and a headscarf.
> 
> Her ticket, seen by French news agency AFP, read that *she was not wearing “an outfit respecting good morals and secularism”.*
> 
> “I was sitting on a beach with my family,” said the 34-year-old who gave only her first name, Siam. “I was wearing a classic headscarf. I had no intention of swimming.”
> 
> *A witness to the scene, Mathilde Cousin, confirmed the incident. “The saddest thing was that people were shouting ‘go home’, some were applauding the police,” she said. “Her daughter was crying.”*​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
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> Coyote said:
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> StLucieBengal said:
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> Coyote said:
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> Alex. said:
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> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> My goodness you are busy promoting yourself, is it ever not about you?
> 
> If you are going to write for Skye, try to use a different style, or at least match her own so it isn't so blatent.
> 
> My posts make perfect sense.  You don't seem to be able to come with a rational reason for forcing women to not wear certain clothing in a free society - a society, I might add where such a law *has never been imposed before and is now ruled unconstitutional*.  The answer most seem to be coming up with is - they are all oppressed and abused.  There is plenty of legitimate criticism in the way women are treated in some Islamic societies, along with other aspects of Islam - but this one is ridiculous.
> 
> At least you are debating directly and not using Skye as your mouth piece.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is disgusting...I do not use skye's mouth for anything.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> So you, and everyone here is supporting a law that has since been ruled unconstitutional.  And yet you still support it.
> 
> Do you support those policemen forcing the woman to disrobe on a public beach?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> How can a temporary ban be a law?  And it's only been flipped in 1 out of 31 cities.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/27/world/europe/france-burkini-ban.html
> 
> 
> Burkini ban would be 'unconstitutional', says French minister
> 
> 
> This is ridiculous - how is it any difference than the "morality police" of restrictive Islamic states?  This is "civilized"?
> 
> French police make woman remove clothing on Nice beach following burkini ban
> 
> The images of police confronting the woman in Nice on Tuesday *show at least four police officers standing over a woman *who was resting on the shore at the town’s Promenade des Anglais, the scene of last month’s Bastille Day lorry attack.
> 
> After they arrive, she appears to remove a blue long-sleeved tunic, although one of the officers appears to take notes or issue an on-the-spot fine.
> 
> The photographs emerged as a mother of two also told on Tuesday how she had been fined on the beach in nearby Cannes wearing leggings, a tunic and a headscarf.
> 
> Her ticket, seen by French news agency AFP, read that *she was not wearing “an outfit respecting good morals and secularism”.*
> 
> “I was sitting on a beach with my family,” said the 34-year-old who gave only her first name, Siam. “I was wearing a classic headscarf. I had no intention of swimming.”
> 
> *A witness to the scene, Mathilde Cousin, confirmed the incident. “The saddest thing was that people were shouting ‘go home’, some were applauding the police,” she said. “Her daughter was crying.”*​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> So let's unpack this ....
> 
> 1st link says 1 city was overturned.    That's exactly what I stated.  1 of 31
> 
> 2nd link is just someone saying it might mean others could be flipped.    It also might rain tomorrow and there might be a giant space ship arrive.
> 
> The third link is about a paranoid politician who is covering their rear end.
> 
> Now on to the lady violating beach policy.    The police wrote her a ticket and asked her to change or leave.    She wasn't happy and gave an excuse.    Her daughter crying is irrelevant .... Kids cry when parents are confronted because they are scared.     I bet her daughter cries when she gets dominated by her husband or maybe her daughter is just scared because her father also dominates her along with any brothers she may have as well.
Click to expand...



How do you know she gets dominated by her husband?  You don't.


----------



## Alex.

Tilly said:


> Alex. said:
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> Coyote said:
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> Alex. said:
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> Coyote said:
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> skye said:
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> 
> 
> Once again I have to say that you are missing the whole point of the discussion which is not to do with feminism or women freedom or any other freedoms which can be limited when the state decide otherwise.
> 
> *We are talking about the fact that this dress code of coverings was imposed by fundamental and radical Islam and has understandably therefore become a potent symbol of Islam.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, the dress code is not necessarily part of "radicalism" - that's where you're off.  What you are insisting on is that woman must bare their bodies in defiance of their beliefs because their dress OFFENDS you and you don't want to see anyone who is visibly Muslim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The last thing the secular French want is to be confronted with Islamic symbolism especially after recent terrorists attacks.
> 
> Every citizen of a country must accept certain laws and limitations to their freedom.
> 
> *There is no point in carrying on and talking any  more   about feminist and women's  rights and their freedom to do whatever they like.*
> 
> This is a different topic entirely.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Feminism and OPPRESSION of women was part of the discussion from the beginning and one of the rationales used - you must have missed that part.
> 
> When citizens of a free and open country accept laws and limitations to their freedom - for example, like the Patriot Act in the US - it's done so for reasons national security or public safety or standards of decency.  It's not done because people are offended by the site of Muslim woman who chooses to dress according to her religion.  *It's especially not done in such a way that explicitly discriminates against one religion, even when other religions impose similar dress codes on their followers*.
> 
> I'm just wondering what makes this any different then laws in far less open and free countries that mandate a woman completely cover herself in a garment resembling an oversized trash bag.  The truth is there is no difference - you're removing from the woman, her right to choose and mandating that she must wear what you think is appropriate.
> 
> "Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd.
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote: "Skye" sure seems to be channeling "Alex." in this post.....very odd."
> 
> The only thing "odd" is you. I have ceased discussing this issue with you, you get too emotional and make no sense.
> 
> Now, like most internet women, you have to include me into every internet discussion on some level even though I am not around.
> 
> As I told you in another more private discussion I am performing concert dates in several states, I sing Yusif Islam tunes, one of my favorite artists is Anila Quayyum Agha who is inspired by traditional Islamic architectural motifs, I am busy showing my photographs and other art work in various galleries and I wash my feet in the sinks of public rest rooms even thought it is prohibited by law.
> 
> If anything, I follow skye, she is a woman of class and intelligence, indeed, rare qualities on this forum.
> 
> 
> Let me be perfectly clear: I do to want to discuss anything with you. buzz off.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My goodness you are busy promoting yourself, is it ever not about you?
> 
> If you are going to write for Skye, try to use a different style, or at least match her own so it isn't so blatent.
> 
> My posts make perfect sense.  You don't seem to be able to come with a rational reason for forcing women to not wear certain clothing in a free society - a society, I might add where such a law *has never been imposed before and is now ruled unconstitutional*.  The answer most seem to be coming up with is - they are all oppressed and abused.  There is plenty of legitimate criticism in the way women are treated in some Islamic societies, along with other aspects of Islam - but this one is ridiculous.
> 
> At least you are debating directly and not using Skye as your mouth piece.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is disgusting...I do not use skye's mouth for anything.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You probably remember I once accused you of writing skye's posts, Alex.  Since then I have seen skye write several lengthy and thoughtful posts, so I no longer believe that, and I apologise to you both for that silly accusation  Mea Culpa.
Click to expand...

I have absolutely nothing to do with skye


----------



## Tilly

The people of France do not like to see conspicuous or ostentatious displays of religious affiliation in public spaces. They don't even like to be asked if they are religious, nor what religion they practice. It goes against their principle of secularity. I don't doubt whichever right winger is elected next year, they will be banning the burqini, as is their right,  and it seems that only 6% of the population would disagree with that.


----------



## StLucieBengal

Coyote said:


> StLucieBengal said:
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> That is disgusting...I do not use skye's mouth for anything.
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you, and everyone here is supporting a law that has since been ruled unconstitutional.  And yet you still support it.
> 
> Do you support those policemen forcing the woman to disrobe on a public beach?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> How can a temporary ban be a law?  And it's only been flipped in 1 out of 31 cities.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/27/world/europe/france-burkini-ban.html
> 
> 
> Burkini ban would be 'unconstitutional', says French minister
> 
> 
> This is ridiculous - how is it any difference than the "morality police" of restrictive Islamic states?  This is "civilized"?
> 
> French police make woman remove clothing on Nice beach following burkini ban
> 
> The images of police confronting the woman in Nice on Tuesday *show at least four police officers standing over a woman *who was resting on the shore at the town’s Promenade des Anglais, the scene of last month’s Bastille Day lorry attack.
> 
> After they arrive, she appears to remove a blue long-sleeved tunic, although one of the officers appears to take notes or issue an on-the-spot fine.
> 
> The photographs emerged as a mother of two also told on Tuesday how she had been fined on the beach in nearby Cannes wearing leggings, a tunic and a headscarf.
> 
> Her ticket, seen by French news agency AFP, read that *she was not wearing “an outfit respecting good morals and secularism”.*
> 
> “I was sitting on a beach with my family,” said the 34-year-old who gave only her first name, Siam. “I was wearing a classic headscarf. I had no intention of swimming.”
> 
> *A witness to the scene, Mathilde Cousin, confirmed the incident. “The saddest thing was that people were shouting ‘go home’, some were applauding the police,” she said. “Her daughter was crying.”*​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
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> Coyote said:
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> StLucieBengal said:
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> Coyote said:
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> Alex. said:
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> 
> That is disgusting...I do not use skye's mouth for anything.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> So you, and everyone here is supporting a law that has since been ruled unconstitutional.  And yet you still support it.
> 
> Do you support those policemen forcing the woman to disrobe on a public beach?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> How can a temporary ban be a law?  And it's only been flipped in 1 out of 31 cities.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/27/world/europe/france-burkini-ban.html
> 
> 
> Burkini ban would be 'unconstitutional', says French minister
> 
> 
> This is ridiculous - how is it any difference than the "morality police" of restrictive Islamic states?  This is "civilized"?
> 
> French police make woman remove clothing on Nice beach following burkini ban
> 
> The images of police confronting the woman in Nice on Tuesday *show at least four police officers standing over a woman *who was resting on the shore at the town’s Promenade des Anglais, the scene of last month’s Bastille Day lorry attack.
> 
> After they arrive, she appears to remove a blue long-sleeved tunic, although one of the officers appears to take notes or issue an on-the-spot fine.
> 
> The photographs emerged as a mother of two also told on Tuesday how she had been fined on the beach in nearby Cannes wearing leggings, a tunic and a headscarf.
> 
> Her ticket, seen by French news agency AFP, read that *she was not wearing “an outfit respecting good morals and secularism”.*
> 
> “I was sitting on a beach with my family,” said the 34-year-old who gave only her first name, Siam. “I was wearing a classic headscarf. I had no intention of swimming.”
> 
> *A witness to the scene, Mathilde Cousin, confirmed the incident. “The saddest thing was that people were shouting ‘go home’, some were applauding the police,” she said. “Her daughter was crying.”*​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> So let's unpack this ....
> 
> 1st link says 1 city was overturned.    That's exactly what I stated.  1 of 31
> 
> 2nd link is just someone saying it might mean others could be flipped.    It also might rain tomorrow and there might be a giant space ship arrive.
> 
> The third link is about a paranoid politician who is covering their rear end.
> 
> Now on to the lady violating beach policy.    The police wrote her a ticket and asked her to change or leave.    She wasn't happy and gave an excuse.    Her daughter crying is irrelevant .... Kids cry when parents are confronted because they are scared.     I bet her daughter cries when she gets dominated by her husband or maybe her daughter is just scared because her father also dominates her along with any brothers she may have as well.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know she gets dominated by her husband?  You don't.
Click to expand...


Because the statistics dictate that Muslim women expierence domestic violence at a higher rate.


----------



## Coyote

StLucieBengal said:


> Coyote said:
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> StLucieBengal said:
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> Coyote said:
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> StLucieBengal said:
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> So you, and everyone here is supporting a law that has since been ruled unconstitutional.  And yet you still support it.
> 
> Do you support those policemen forcing the woman to disrobe on a public beach?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How can a temporary ban be a law?  And it's only been flipped in 1 out of 31 cities.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/27/world/europe/france-burkini-ban.html
> 
> 
> Burkini ban would be 'unconstitutional', says French minister
> 
> 
> This is ridiculous - how is it any difference than the "morality police" of restrictive Islamic states?  This is "civilized"?
> 
> French police make woman remove clothing on Nice beach following burkini ban
> 
> The images of police confronting the woman in Nice on Tuesday *show at least four police officers standing over a woman *who was resting on the shore at the town’s Promenade des Anglais, the scene of last month’s Bastille Day lorry attack.
> 
> After they arrive, she appears to remove a blue long-sleeved tunic, although one of the officers appears to take notes or issue an on-the-spot fine.
> 
> The photographs emerged as a mother of two also told on Tuesday how she had been fined on the beach in nearby Cannes wearing leggings, a tunic and a headscarf.
> 
> Her ticket, seen by French news agency AFP, read that *she was not wearing “an outfit respecting good morals and secularism”.*
> 
> “I was sitting on a beach with my family,” said the 34-year-old who gave only her first name, Siam. “I was wearing a classic headscarf. I had no intention of swimming.”
> 
> *A witness to the scene, Mathilde Cousin, confirmed the incident. “The saddest thing was that people were shouting ‘go home’, some were applauding the police,” she said. “Her daughter was crying.”*​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
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> Coyote said:
> 
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> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> So you, and everyone here is supporting a law that has since been ruled unconstitutional.  And yet you still support it.
> 
> Do you support those policemen forcing the woman to disrobe on a public beach?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> How can a temporary ban be a law?  And it's only been flipped in 1 out of 31 cities.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/27/world/europe/france-burkini-ban.html
> 
> 
> Burkini ban would be 'unconstitutional', says French minister
> 
> 
> This is ridiculous - how is it any difference than the "morality police" of restrictive Islamic states?  This is "civilized"?
> 
> French police make woman remove clothing on Nice beach following burkini ban
> 
> The images of police confronting the woman in Nice on Tuesday *show at least four police officers standing over a woman *who was resting on the shore at the town’s Promenade des Anglais, the scene of last month’s Bastille Day lorry attack.
> 
> After they arrive, she appears to remove a blue long-sleeved tunic, although one of the officers appears to take notes or issue an on-the-spot fine.
> 
> The photographs emerged as a mother of two also told on Tuesday how she had been fined on the beach in nearby Cannes wearing leggings, a tunic and a headscarf.
> 
> Her ticket, seen by French news agency AFP, read that *she was not wearing “an outfit respecting good morals and secularism”.*
> 
> “I was sitting on a beach with my family,” said the 34-year-old who gave only her first name, Siam. “I was wearing a classic headscarf. I had no intention of swimming.”
> 
> *A witness to the scene, Mathilde Cousin, confirmed the incident. “The saddest thing was that people were shouting ‘go home’, some were applauding the police,” she said. “Her daughter was crying.”*​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> So let's unpack this ....
> 
> 1st link says 1 city was overturned.    That's exactly what I stated.  1 of 31
> 
> 2nd link is just someone saying it might mean others could be flipped.    It also might rain tomorrow and there might be a giant space ship arrive.
> 
> The third link is about a paranoid politician who is covering their rear end.
> 
> Now on to the lady violating beach policy.    The police wrote her a ticket and asked her to change or leave.    She wasn't happy and gave an excuse.    Her daughter crying is irrelevant .... Kids cry when parents are confronted because they are scared.     I bet her daughter cries when she gets dominated by her husband or maybe her daughter is just scared because her father also dominates her along with any brothers she may have as well.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know she gets dominated by her husband?  You don't.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because the statistics dictate that Muslim women expierence domestic violence at a higher rate.
Click to expand...


What statistics where?


----------



## StLucieBengal

Coyote said:


> More views on the issue....
> 
> Seriously, What Orthodox Women Wear to the Beach Is No Different From a Burkini
> 
> _Moshe Sebbag, the rabbi of the Grand Synagogue of Paris, announced this week that he supports the French ban on burkinis, the modest swimwear some Muslim women wear to cover up on the beach.
> 
> Wearing a burkini, he said, is not “innocent” and it sends a message.
> 
> But, we ask Sebbag, what difference exactly is there between the garb Orthodox Jewish women wear to the beach than the burkinis that some Muslim women wear?
> 
> 
> And why should one religious group of women be allowed to follow their traditions over another?_​
> 
> Look at the photos...what's the difference in style?  Maybe, if some of those women didn't have to wear long dresses, but wore a burkini they could swim....have more fun...not have to stay out of the water?
> 
> Why we wear the burkini: five women on dressing modestly at the beach
> 
> Reasons given by 5 different women on why they prefer to wear it.




Why do you keep making the ridiculous comparison to the Jews?   Those 2 photos in that article look vastly different.     

One you can see their head, hair and face.  

One looks like an alien with hands and feet.


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## Esmeralda

Coyote said:


> Dogmaphobe said:
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> Coyote said:
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> there is no need to try to be the resident thread nazi.
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't worry -- your role is safe from competition.
> 
> Your arguments strike me as much akin to those of pedophiles when it comes to their having sex with children, though. Now, I realize you don't really oppose that, either, but pedophiles also argue that it is the child's choice -- actually empowering to them just as you argue in cases of women under the yoke of Islam. You see, if pedophiles can start grooming children at a young enough age, they come to accept it as normal and by the time they are seven or eight, they will actually claim it is their choice. Similarly, in these Islamic cultures you love so much, girls are conditioned from a very young age -- groomed for their role just as thoroughly as the pedophiles groom children for sex. You do not worry about this exploitation, of course, since you are simply looking for an opportunity to call people a bigot or an Islamophobe or a racist since that makes you feel good about yourself, but you are propping up an entire system of degradation here.
> 
> Calling these symbols of female subservience a "choice" is simply one of those ruses you use time and time again to invert the true nature of what you actually support.  A women who has been groomed from the time she was a child to say it is her "choice" is no different than an 8 year old saying her having sex with a 42 year old man is hers. The same type of grooming is invo
> 
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> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Burkini's also allow women who might not otherwise get out to enjoy the beach, out and enjoying the beach.  And what people don't realize, it's not just Muslim women who face this problem and it's not just Muslim women who are impacted by these sorts of decisions.
> 
> The challenges of exercising for some Muslim and Orthodox Jewish women
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There is a lot of partial nudity on the beaches of France, especially along the Mediterranean.  Many women go topless.  I wonder that conservative Muslim women would be comfortable in such an atmosphere.  I wonder why they would even want to be there.
> 
> I lived for 2 years in Turkey. I traveled around Turkey with Muslim women.  They go to the beach and wear bikinis, older women may wear one piece suits.  No one felt this was an offense to modesty.  It is not Islam that dictates something like the burkini.  It is oppressive cultural attitudes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Agree, it's cultural attitudes - but, who has the right to force them to where something they feel is dreadfully imodest?  Shouldn't it be her choice?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well, it isn't their culture.  If the French culture says you can't wear this outfit, we don't find it acceptable, then that's what you adhere to. I have lived in far more conservative Muslim countries than Turkey and I and other Western women are expected to conform to a certain level of modesty in public dress. We are not onlyy expected to, we are required to. Now, for me, an older woman, it is not really an issue, but young women simply cannot wear the kind of clothing, like mini skirts or tank tops, for instance, they would wear in the West
> 
> I find it extremelyy hypocritical that the Muslim women get so bent out of shape being required to abstain from certain dress when they are in the West, but expect Western women to adhere to their standards in Muslim countries.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> *This is where i am at...  Our women can't wear normal clothes over there so why on earth should we bend over backwards for their nonsense.     *
> 
> If our women need to put on a scarf and cover up all skin then when they Muslims come to the west they can wear tank tops and shorts.   And if it's that big of an issue for them then they can just not come.     Just as we can not go there if we don't wanna respect their ways.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Precisely because we ARE NOT those countries we can allow women to choose to wear what they want.  We don't impose irrational standards on them.  Why do people seem to think we should be like those countries?
Click to expand...

Who says it's irrational? It's a matter of perspective, and culture is alI about perspective.  Is preserving and protecting one's culture irrational?  Is allowing  a dominant minority of immigrants to refuse to adapt to the culture rational?


----------



## Coyote

StLucieBengal said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> More views on the issue....
> 
> Seriously, What Orthodox Women Wear to the Beach Is No Different From a Burkini
> 
> _Moshe Sebbag, the rabbi of the Grand Synagogue of Paris, announced this week that he supports the French ban on burkinis, the modest swimwear some Muslim women wear to cover up on the beach.
> 
> Wearing a burkini, he said, is not “innocent” and it sends a message.
> 
> But, we ask Sebbag, what difference exactly is there between the garb Orthodox Jewish women wear to the beach than the burkinis that some Muslim women wear?
> 
> 
> And why should one religious group of women be allowed to follow their traditions over another?_​
> 
> Look at the photos...what's the difference in style?  Maybe, if some of those women didn't have to wear long dresses, but wore a burkini they could swim....have more fun...not have to stay out of the water?
> 
> Why we wear the burkini: five women on dressing modestly at the beach
> 
> Reasons given by 5 different women on why they prefer to wear it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you keep making the ridiculous comparison to the Jews?   Those 2 photos in that article look vastly different.
> 
> One you can see their head, hair and face.
> 
> One looks like an alien with hands and feet.
Click to expand...


Very little difference and since none of them remotely resemble the swimwear of typical French beach goers that is desired by those supporting the ban, you need to move the goalposts a bit.


----------



## StLucieBengal

Coyote said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> More views on the issue....
> 
> Seriously, What Orthodox Women Wear to the Beach Is No Different From a Burkini
> 
> _Moshe Sebbag, the rabbi of the Grand Synagogue of Paris, announced this week that he supports the French ban on burkinis, the modest swimwear some Muslim women wear to cover up on the beach.
> 
> Wearing a burkini, he said, is not “innocent” and it sends a message.
> 
> But, we ask Sebbag, what difference exactly is there between the garb Orthodox Jewish women wear to the beach than the burkinis that some Muslim women wear?
> 
> 
> And why should one religious group of women be allowed to follow their traditions over another?_​
> 
> Look at the photos...what's the difference in style?  Maybe, if some of those women didn't have to wear long dresses, but wore a burkini they could swim....have more fun...not have to stay out of the water?
> 
> Why we wear the burkini: five women on dressing modestly at the beach
> 
> Reasons given by 5 different women on why they prefer to wear it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you keep making the ridiculous comparison to the Jews?   Those 2 photos in that article look vastly different.
> 
> One you can see their head, hair and face.
> 
> One looks like an alien with hands and feet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Very little difference and since none of them remotely resemble the swimwear of typical French beach goers that is desired by those supporting the ban, you need to move the goalposts a bit.
Click to expand...



Post a photo of what you think the typical French beach goer wears.


----------



## Coyote

Esmeralda said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> there is no need to try to be the resident thread nazi.
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't worry -- your role is safe from competition.
> 
> Your arguments strike me as much akin to those of pedophiles when it comes to their having sex with children, though. Now, I realize you don't really oppose that, either, but pedophiles also argue that it is the child's choice -- actually empowering to them just as you argue in cases of women under the yoke of Islam. You see, if pedophiles can start grooming children at a young enough age, they come to accept it as normal and by the time they are seven or eight, they will actually claim it is their choice. Similarly, in these Islamic cultures you love so much, girls are conditioned from a very young age -- groomed for their role just as thoroughly as the pedophiles groom children for sex. You do not worry about this exploitation, of course, since you are simply looking for an opportunity to call people a bigot or an Islamophobe or a racist since that makes you feel good about yourself, but you are propping up an entire system of degradation here.
> 
> Calling these symbols of female subservience a "choice" is simply one of those ruses you use time and time again to invert the true nature of what you actually support.  A women who has been groomed from the time she was a child to say it is her "choice" is no different than an 8 year old saying her having sex with a 42 year old man is hers. The same type of grooming is invo
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is a lot of partial nudity on the beaches of France, especially along the Mediterranean.  Many women go topless.  I wonder that conservative Muslim women would be comfortable in such an atmosphere.  I wonder why they would even want to be there.
> 
> I lived for 2 years in Turkey. I traveled around Turkey with Muslim women.  They go to the beach and wear bikinis, older women may wear one piece suits.  No one felt this was an offense to modesty.  It is not Islam that dictates something like the burkini.  It is oppressive cultural attitudes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Agree, it's cultural attitudes - but, who has the right to force them to where something they feel is dreadfully imodest?  Shouldn't it be her choice?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well, it isn't their culture.  If the French culture says you can't wear this outfit, we don't find it acceptable, then that's what you adhere to. I have lived in far more conservative Muslim countries than Turkey and I and other Western women are expected to conform to a certain level of modesty in public dress. We are not onlyy expected to, we are required to. Now, for me, an older woman, it is not really an issue, but young women simply cannot wear the kind of clothing, like mini skirts or tank tops, for instance, they would wear in the West
> 
> I find it extremelyy hypocritical that the Muslim women get so bent out of shape being required to abstain from certain dress when they are in the West, but expect Western women to adhere to their standards in Muslim countries.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> *This is where i am at...  Our women can't wear normal clothes over there so why on earth should we bend over backwards for their nonsense.     *
> 
> If our women need to put on a scarf and cover up all skin then when they Muslims come to the west they can wear tank tops and shorts.   And if it's that big of an issue for them then they can just not come.     Just as we can not go there if we don't wanna respect their ways.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Precisely because we ARE NOT those countries we can allow women to choose to wear what they want.  We don't impose irrational standards on them.  Why do people seem to think we should be like those countries?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Who says it's irrational? It's a matter of perspective, and culture is alI about perspective.  Is preserving and protecting one's culture irrational?  Is allowing  a dominant minority of immigrants to refuse to adapt to the culture rational?
Click to expand...


How many free, pluralistic and democratic countries such as France or the US mandate standards of clothing other than minimal required coverage?

How is choosing a more modest swimsuit style for ONESELF - refusing to adapt to a culture that has, up to now, imposed no standard on beachwear other than minimal coverage?

If the dominant culture prefered wearing thongs and you were highly uncomfortable wearing them - should you be forced to?  Maybe in Saudi Arabia where there are no individual rights (subsitute Burka) - but in a country like the US?


----------



## Tilly

StLucieBengal said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> So you, and everyone here is supporting a law that has since been ruled unconstitutional.  And yet you still support it.
> 
> Do you support those policemen forcing the woman to disrobe on a public beach?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How can a temporary ban be a law?  And it's only been flipped in 1 out of 31 cities.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/27/world/europe/france-burkini-ban.html
> 
> 
> Burkini ban would be 'unconstitutional', says French minister
> 
> 
> This is ridiculous - how is it any difference than the "morality police" of restrictive Islamic states?  This is "civilized"?
> 
> French police make woman remove clothing on Nice beach following burkini ban
> 
> The images of police confronting the woman in Nice on Tuesday *show at least four police officers standing over a woman *who was resting on the shore at the town’s Promenade des Anglais, the scene of last month’s Bastille Day lorry attack.
> 
> After they arrive, she appears to remove a blue long-sleeved tunic, although one of the officers appears to take notes or issue an on-the-spot fine.
> 
> The photographs emerged as a mother of two also told on Tuesday how she had been fined on the beach in nearby Cannes wearing leggings, a tunic and a headscarf.
> 
> Her ticket, seen by French news agency AFP, read that *she was not wearing “an outfit respecting good morals and secularism”.*
> 
> “I was sitting on a beach with my family,” said the 34-year-old who gave only her first name, Siam. “I was wearing a classic headscarf. I had no intention of swimming.”
> 
> *A witness to the scene, Mathilde Cousin, confirmed the incident. “The saddest thing was that people were shouting ‘go home’, some were applauding the police,” she said. “Her daughter was crying.”*​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> So you, and everyone here is supporting a law that has since been ruled unconstitutional.  And yet you still support it.
> 
> Do you support those policemen forcing the woman to disrobe on a public beach?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> How can a temporary ban be a law?  And it's only been flipped in 1 out of 31 cities.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/27/world/europe/france-burkini-ban.html
> 
> 
> Burkini ban would be 'unconstitutional', says French minister
> 
> 
> This is ridiculous - how is it any difference than the "morality police" of restrictive Islamic states?  This is "civilized"?
> 
> French police make woman remove clothing on Nice beach following burkini ban
> 
> The images of police confronting the woman in Nice on Tuesday *show at least four police officers standing over a woman *who was resting on the shore at the town’s Promenade des Anglais, the scene of last month’s Bastille Day lorry attack.
> 
> After they arrive, she appears to remove a blue long-sleeved tunic, although one of the officers appears to take notes or issue an on-the-spot fine.
> 
> The photographs emerged as a mother of two also told on Tuesday how she had been fined on the beach in nearby Cannes wearing leggings, a tunic and a headscarf.
> 
> Her ticket, seen by French news agency AFP, read that *she was not wearing “an outfit respecting good morals and secularism”.*
> 
> “I was sitting on a beach with my family,” said the 34-year-old who gave only her first name, Siam. “I was wearing a classic headscarf. I had no intention of swimming.”
> 
> *A witness to the scene, Mathilde Cousin, confirmed the incident. “The saddest thing was that people were shouting ‘go home’, some were applauding the police,” she said. “Her daughter was crying.”*​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> So let's unpack this ....
> 
> 1st link says 1 city was overturned.    That's exactly what I stated.  1 of 31
> 
> 2nd link is just someone saying it might mean others could be flipped.    It also might rain tomorrow and there might be a giant space ship arrive.
> 
> The third link is about a paranoid politician who is covering their rear end.
> 
> Now on to the lady violating beach policy.    The police wrote her a ticket and asked her to change or leave.    She wasn't happy and gave an excuse.    Her daughter crying is irrelevant .... Kids cry when parents are confronted because they are scared.     I bet her daughter cries when she gets dominated by her husband or maybe her daughter is just scared because her father also dominates her along with any brothers she may have as well.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know she gets dominated by her husband?  You don't.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because the statistics dictate that Muslim women expierence domestic violence at a higher rate.
Click to expand...

Also, most French muslims are from Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia and sub Saharan Africa, places that Amnesty Inernational reports to have serious sexual violence against women and terribly misogynistic rape laws, and so on.


----------



## Coyote

StLucieBengal said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> More views on the issue....
> 
> Seriously, What Orthodox Women Wear to the Beach Is No Different From a Burkini
> 
> _Moshe Sebbag, the rabbi of the Grand Synagogue of Paris, announced this week that he supports the French ban on burkinis, the modest swimwear some Muslim women wear to cover up on the beach.
> 
> Wearing a burkini, he said, is not “innocent” and it sends a message.
> 
> But, we ask Sebbag, what difference exactly is there between the garb Orthodox Jewish women wear to the beach than the burkinis that some Muslim women wear?
> 
> 
> And why should one religious group of women be allowed to follow their traditions over another?_​
> 
> Look at the photos...what's the difference in style?  Maybe, if some of those women didn't have to wear long dresses, but wore a burkini they could swim....have more fun...not have to stay out of the water?
> 
> Why we wear the burkini: five women on dressing modestly at the beach
> 
> Reasons given by 5 different women on why they prefer to wear it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you keep making the ridiculous comparison to the Jews?   Those 2 photos in that article look vastly different.
> 
> One you can see their head, hair and face.
> 
> One looks like an alien with hands and feet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Very little difference and since none of them remotely resemble the swimwear of typical French beach goers that is desired by those supporting the ban, you need to move the goalposts a bit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Post a photo of what you think the typical French beach goer wears.
Click to expand...


----------



## Esmeralda

Coyote said:


> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dogmaphobe said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> there is no need to try to be the resident thread nazi.
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't worry -- your role is safe from competition.
> 
> Your arguments strike me as much akin to those of pedophiles when it comes to their having sex with children, though. Now, I realize you don't really oppose that, either, but pedophiles also argue that it is the child's choice -- actually empowering to them just as you argue in cases of women under the yoke of Islam. You see, if pedophiles can start grooming children at a young enough age, they come to accept it as normal and by the time they are seven or eight, they will actually claim it is their choice. Similarly, in these Islamic cultures you love so much, girls are conditioned from a very young age -- groomed for their role just as thoroughly as the pedophiles groom children for sex. You do not worry about this exploitation, of course, since you are simply looking for an opportunity to call people a bigot or an Islamophobe or a racist since that makes you feel good about yourself, but you are propping up an entire system of degradation here.
> 
> Calling these symbols of female subservience a "choice" is simply one of those ruses you use time and time again to invert the true nature of what you actually support.  A women who has been groomed from the time she was a child to say it is her "choice" is no different than an 8 year old saying her having sex with a 42 year old man is hers. The same type of grooming is invo
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Agree, it's cultural attitudes - but, who has the right to force them to where something they feel is dreadfully imodest?  Shouldn't it be her choice?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well, it isn't their culture.  If the French culture says you can't wear this outfit, we don't find it acceptable, then that's what you adhere to. I have lived in far more conservative Muslim countries than Turkey and I and other Western women are expected to conform to a certain level of modesty in public dress. We are not onlyy expected to, we are required to. Now, for me, an older woman, it is not really an issue, but young women simply cannot wear the kind of clothing, like mini skirts or tank tops, for instance, they would wear in the West
> 
> I find it extremelyy hypocritical that the Muslim women get so bent out of shape being required to abstain from certain dress when they are in the West, but expect Western women to adhere to their standards in Muslim countries.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> *This is where i am at...  Our women can't wear normal clothes over there so why on earth should we bend over backwards for their nonsense.     *
> 
> If our women need to put on a scarf and cover up all skin then when they Muslims come to the west they can wear tank tops and shorts.   And if it's that big of an issue for them then they can just not come.     Just as we can not go there if we don't wanna respect their ways.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Precisely because we ARE NOT those countries we can allow women to choose to wear what they want.  We don't impose irrational standards on them.  Why do people seem to think we should be like those countries?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Who says it's irrational? It's a matter of perspective, and culture is alI about perspective.  Is preserving and protecting one's culture irrational?  Is allowing  a dominant minority of immigrants to refuse to adapt to the culture rational?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How many free, pluralistic and democratic countries such as France or the US mandate standards of clothing other than minimal required coverage?
> 
> How is choosing a more modest swimsuit style for ONESELF - refusing to adapt to a culture that has, up to now, imposed no standard on beachwear other than minimal coverage?
> 
> If the dominant culture prefered wearing thongs and you were highly uncomfortable wearing them - should you be forced to?  Maybe in Saudi Arabia where there are no individual rights (subsitute Burka) - but in a country like the US?
Click to expand...

This is not about clothing.  As I have said, thie issue is not strictly the burkini per se. This is aobut a refusal to adapt to the culture.  I have spent a lot of time in France and a have been noting the impact of the large population of Muslims there.  They are mostly poor, uneducated, religious people who come to France for economic reasons.  They don't embrace the culture nor do they adapt to it.  They scorn French customs and perspectives. They take advantage of the freedoms (such as wearing whatever you want) and better economic conditions but do not embrace or love the country itself. That is the statement the burkini makes.  The French are offended by this and quite rightly.

No one is  being forced to wear anything. They have the choice to go to only private beaches or pools, to wear modest one piece suits, etc. But to make the extreme statement a burkini makes is antagonistic, both politically and socially, not simply a choice of clothing. It represents the oppresion of women, which is anthithical to French culture, and it represents a refusal to adapt to French culture at the beach.


----------



## StLucieBengal

Coyote said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> More views on the issue....
> 
> Seriously, What Orthodox Women Wear to the Beach Is No Different From a Burkini
> 
> _Moshe Sebbag, the rabbi of the Grand Synagogue of Paris, announced this week that he supports the French ban on burkinis, the modest swimwear some Muslim women wear to cover up on the beach.
> 
> Wearing a burkini, he said, is not “innocent” and it sends a message.
> 
> But, we ask Sebbag, what difference exactly is there between the garb Orthodox Jewish women wear to the beach than the burkinis that some Muslim women wear?
> 
> 
> And why should one religious group of women be allowed to follow their traditions over another?_​
> 
> Look at the photos...what's the difference in style?  Maybe, if some of those women didn't have to wear long dresses, but wore a burkini they could swim....have more fun...not have to stay out of the water?
> 
> Why we wear the burkini: five women on dressing modestly at the beach
> 
> Reasons given by 5 different women on why they prefer to wear it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you keep making the ridiculous comparison to the Jews?   Those 2 photos in that article look vastly different.
> 
> One you can see their head, hair and face.
> 
> One looks like an alien with hands and feet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Very little difference and since none of them remotely resemble the swimwear of typical French beach goers that is desired by those supporting the ban, you need to move the goalposts a bit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Post a photo of what you think the typical French beach goer wears.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...



Is that supposed to be a where's Waldo?   

You post all these single photos then when asked for the French norm you go with a sky shot lol


----------



## flacaltenn

Coyote said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> Coyote said:
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> 
> skye said:
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> Coyote said:
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> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can't agree with most of your points because they really aren't relevant.
> 
> But seriously it is not expected that you travel to an Arab country  as I mentioned, to defend these women freedoms ,which amount to almost zero.
> 
> Why don't you start a new thread criticizing these complete lack of freedoms in the Arab countries and I will be glad to join in with you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nice deflection Skye/Alex but this isn't a thread about women in unfree countries but women in a free country.  Every point I made has been brought up by others already in this thread so there is no need to try to be the resident thread nazi.
> 
> Most laws concerning dress codes involve minimum standards for decency or security.  In a free country, we see dress run the gamut and reflective of the diversity of the population.
> 
> Now, suddenly, there is a law mandating women dress to a more minimal standard - more minimal then they feel is modest on a public beach.  Who cares what they wear?
> 
> I notice you don't say anything about the pictures of the policeMEN, standing over that poor woman and forcing her to disrobe in public.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> This is getting absolutely ridiculous and you keep repeating yourself.
> 
> I don't agree with anything you say  and further more your pathetic claim that I sound like somebody else meaning that someone else is writing my posts  is completely false and really, as a moderator you should be more moderate and not make such claims from nowhere.
> 
> This claim does you no credit whatsoever!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You have a reputation for channeling Alex - this isn't the first time here that someone called you on it and that someone then was not me, so don't be silly.  When your posts are totally out of character for you in grammar, wording etc then don't be surprised when you are called on it.
> 
> As for what I'm posting - you're attempting to control the thread by limiting the topic to your desires.
> 
> Do you think it was appropriate for the policemen to force the woman to disrobe on the beach?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes I do.   As long as the violator was given the opportunity to either take off her burqa or leave the beach.
> 
> I doubt the police just walked up and tried to strip her.     I am sure she gave some Muslim bs and wasn't friendly to the police.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> She looked very intimidated.  If they forced a Jewish woman to do the same (Orthodox Jews have very similar rules on modesty and women) - would you accuse her of giving some "Jewish bs" and not being friendly to the police or would you be appropriately outraged at this?  How about a Mennonite woman? (though I doubt there are any in France).  There are however traditional Muslims and Orthodox Jews.
Click to expand...


Good point about Mennonites and their related groups.

Just scanning this messy battle of a thread -- one thing that bothers me is that whether it's Constitutional or legal or not may NOT be the big issue. To live in a FREE country -- you have to have to tolerance for acts of others that you may personally hate or not condone  *Without Tolerance -- there really is no freedom at all*. And the LAW might be used unnecessarily and abusively as substitute for tolerance.

 So when you're driving a Pennsylvania rural road and an Amish Cart almost becomes a hood ornament on your Bimmer --- do you flip a bird and mutter something about "there ought to be a law"? Or do you suddenly realize that there are other cultures in proximity that need to have space for their identity?

Hassling burkinis is a belated and meaningless gesture given the GROSS NEGLECT of French Sovereignty that the citizens have allowed to occur. Losing control of their identity and borders. And their failure to confront Muslim integration and assimilation HEAD ON.  It's silly.

UNLESS --- there IS assimilation and these same women start to re-evaluate what modesty is to them. And they decide to shed the burkinis by their own free will.   THEN -- if a husband/relative seeks to punish them or harm them for that action --- THAT would be time to act. That is real support for integration and learning to live in a FREE state.


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## Alex.

*"‘I am commanded by Allah to be modest’*

I enjoy wearing the burkini. As a Muslim woman I am encouraged by the Qur’an not to wear the same as non-Muslims and to remain identifiably Muslim at all times. Anyone who says otherwise is either putting their love of the _dunya_ (or their culture first. As a Muslim, we believe this world is a temporary pleasure trap. It will seduce you from your _akhira_ (our rewards in the afterlife). I am also commanded by Allah to be modest (_hayaa_) and observe hijab at all times. So I am covered up from legs to neck and my lower arms are on display when there are women or family members present. I’m white British, and a revert Muslim. "

Why we wear the burkini: five women on dressing modestly at the beach

Such is the life of someone who follows their faith.


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## Coyote

Esmeralda said:


> Coyote said:
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> there is no need to try to be the resident thread nazi.
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> Don't worry -- your role is safe from competition.
> 
> Your arguments strike me as much akin to those of pedophiles when it comes to their having sex with children, though. Now, I realize you don't really oppose that, either, but pedophiles also argue that it is the child's choice -- actually empowering to them just as you argue in cases of women under the yoke of Islam. You see, if pedophiles can start grooming children at a young enough age, they come to accept it as normal and by the time they are seven or eight, they will actually claim it is their choice. Similarly, in these Islamic cultures you love so much, girls are conditioned from a very young age -- groomed for their role just as thoroughly as the pedophiles groom children for sex. You do not worry about this exploitation, of course, since you are simply looking for an opportunity to call people a bigot or an Islamophobe or a racist since that makes you feel good about yourself, but you are propping up an entire system of degradation here.
> 
> Calling these symbols of female subservience a "choice" is simply one of those ruses you use time and time again to invert the true nature of what you actually support.  A women who has been groomed from the time she was a child to say it is her "choice" is no different than an 8 year old saying her having sex with a 42 year old man is hers. The same type of grooming is invo
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> StLucieBengal said:
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> Well, it isn't their culture.  If the French culture says you can't wear this outfit, we don't find it acceptable, then that's what you adhere to. I have lived in far more conservative Muslim countries than Turkey and I and other Western women are expected to conform to a certain level of modesty in public dress. We are not onlyy expected to, we are required to. Now, for me, an older woman, it is not really an issue, but young women simply cannot wear the kind of clothing, like mini skirts or tank tops, for instance, they would wear in the West
> 
> I find it extremelyy hypocritical that the Muslim women get so bent out of shape being required to abstain from certain dress when they are in the West, but expect Western women to adhere to their standards in Muslim countries.
> 
> Click to expand...
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> 
> 
> *This is where i am at...  Our women can't wear normal clothes over there so why on earth should we bend over backwards for their nonsense.     *
> 
> If our women need to put on a scarf and cover up all skin then when they Muslims come to the west they can wear tank tops and shorts.   And if it's that big of an issue for them then they can just not come.     Just as we can not go there if we don't wanna respect their ways.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Precisely because we ARE NOT those countries we can allow women to choose to wear what they want.  We don't impose irrational standards on them.  Why do people seem to think we should be like those countries?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Who says it's irrational? It's a matter of perspective, and culture is alI about perspective.  Is preserving and protecting one's culture irrational?  Is allowing  a dominant minority of immigrants to refuse to adapt to the culture rational?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How many free, pluralistic and democratic countries such as France or the US mandate standards of clothing other than minimal required coverage?
> 
> How is choosing a more modest swimsuit style for ONESELF - refusing to adapt to a culture that has, up to now, imposed no standard on beachwear other than minimal coverage?
> 
> If the dominant culture prefered wearing thongs and you were highly uncomfortable wearing them - should you be forced to?  Maybe in Saudi Arabia where there are no individual rights (subsitute Burka) - but in a country like the US?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is not about clothing.  As I have said, thie issue is not strictly the burkini per se. This is aobut a refusal to adapt to the culture.  I have spent a lot of time in France and a have been noting the impact of the large population of Muslims there.  They are mostly poor, uneducated, religious people who come to France for economic reasons.  They don't embrace the culture nor do they adapt to it.  They scorn French customs and perspectives. They take advantage of the freedoms (such as wearing whatever you want) and better economic conditions but do not embrace or love the country itself. That is the statement the burkini makes.  The French are offended by this and quite rightly.
Click to expand...


Then perhaps the thing to do is not to ban an article of clothing that allows these women to enjoy the beach - banning it will do nothing to encourage integration into French society and will more likely have the opposite effect, creating increased isolation and division because they won't go out.

I'll give you a parallel.  In Minnesota (I think) is a significant community of Somali immigrants - refugees resettled there.  Their community is in an area with many lakes and bodies of water, and drowning deaths are not uncommon.  Most people know how to swim, and there are many town programs sponsoring swimming lessons.  The problem is that the Somali women and girls don't know how to swim, and there had been a number of drowning deaths.  Because their religion forbids them from uncovering themselves around strange men, they were not able to take part in any of these programs.  The local police department together the YMCA put together an ingenious program.  They set up an hour  one night a week for women/girls only swimming - no men.  It was open to all women and girls, in any style of swimwear, not just the Somali's.  They learned how to swim, but more than that - they met new people, and made friends in the community.  These people had been through a lot of trauma  The girls were becoming more confident, and making new friends in school.  It was a win-win for the town, for the Somali refugees and for successful integration into the community.  

It wasn't all lightness and honey though - there were those who protested, who claimed it was giving in to "creeping Sharia" etc.  They could have just said - screw those girls and women, if they don't want to accept our culture and swim with men and wear western style swimwear - then they can stay at home. What would that have accomplished?  Better integration?  Or more isolation?

It seems in France, a burkini is a means of allowing women who might otherwise not go out and mingle on a holiday beach or in the water just like any French person, a chance to do so and the more they mingle, the more they are going to learn about each other.  If France has an integration problem - banning the burkini is not going to solve it.


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## Tilly

The burqini was designed in line with the misogynistic Islamic code of modesty. It reinforces the belief that women's body's are somehow shameful, and that women must take on all the responsibility for men who apparently cannot control their sexual urges. Men can bare themselves at the beach, and at the pool - why don't they have to shroud themselves? Women have to cover up and appear as though they are members of some third world backwards tribe where equality does not exist.
Women and children have been attacked by muslims in France for wearing shorts and T shirts, and bikinis. These kind of attacks will only continue if the French gvmnt is seen to endorse the belief that women should be covered up, whilst men are absolutely not expected to. 
There are plenty of ways to dress modestly at the beach without announcing you are a muslim woman. If that is too arduous for them, perhaps they should consider living in a Muslim country instead of trying to change the established cultures of Europe, where people fought long and hard for the equality and rights they have now.


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## flacaltenn

Tilly said:


> A French woman's perspective:
> 
> 
> *Why should France accept the burkini? Its time to debate integration head-on*
> 
> MURIEL DEMARCUS
> 30 AUGUST 2016 • 1:36PM
> 
> The burkini ban in my home country (I am a French woman living in London) has made headlines for most of August.  Despite the fact that it has eventually been overturned by the highest French court, the debate is far from over. Journalists have had a field day mocking what they see as an attack against personal freedoms, and keep mentioning that the rightwing in France still supports the ban. What a simplistic view of the situation!
> 
> According to various polls, two thirds of the French population supported the ban, and this included the socialist French Prime Minister, Manuel Valls, who famously said that that the full-body swimsuit symbolised the enslavement of women. So what is this really about? I got tired of reading analysis that, in my view, only gave a partial side of the issue, so here is my (very French) take on it.
> 
> First of all, France is a secular country. Obviously, France is not the only Western country to insist on the separation of church and state – but I believe that it does so more militantly than any other. To an extent, you could say that secularism is the closest thing we French have to a state religion. It underpinned the French Revolution and has been a foundation of the country's progressive thought for centuries. The law of separation meant strict official neutrality in religious affairs. The Republic has always recognised individuals, rather than groups: this means that you are supposed to be French first, then Muslim, or Catholic, or whatever your religion or ethnic minority might be. You therefore need to comply with the law even if it goes against your religious beliefs, because secularism prevails in all circumstances.  Although it can be carried to extremes that other countries don’t understand, this view of citizenship is fundamentally non-discriminatory and inclusive. It’s all about finding a common ground, whatever your religion. Burkini bans must be viewed in this context, and are nothing new.
> 
> Rightly or wrongly, French citizens are scared of the Islamisation of their society. Obviously the latest attacks in Nice have further polarised an already divided population. The population is still traumatised, and believes that things have become worse over the last decade or so: people see more veiled women on the street, and are shocked to see a few niqabs or burkas from time to time, despite a full ban. This is compounded by the fact that young women are more and more targeted by some members of the Muslim community on the issue of modesty. For instance, last year in Reims a young woman sunbathing in a public park was set upon by a gang of teenage girls. They objected to her bikini, and the town’s authorities were fast to insist there was no religious aspect to the attack. Nobody believed them.
> 
> I belong to a generation that never saw a burkini or a full-body swimsuit at the beach before this summer’s events. This is clearly a new occurrence. The French also are shocked to learn that France is now home to thousands of Islamic radicals. Citizens feel that enough ground has been ceded to minorities in general, and to the Muslim minorities in particular. They think that things have now come to a head, and learned the hard way that political correctness doesn’t work. Furthermore, the French don’t understand why their women should cover up when they visit some Muslim country, but let women wear a veil or a burkini when they visit France. In short, they don’t understand why they should compromise when other countries don’t. It’s all about "my country, my rules".
> 
> Then again, I keep reading that the burkini is empowering for Muslim women who wouldn’t be able to go to the beach otherwise. I am struggling with such a point. Just look at the 1950s and 1960s photos of women in modern, comfortable clothes in Afghanistan or Egypt. They clearly were not forced to succumb to the new wave of stricter Islamic dress code. What changed? Why should women suddenly cover up? Islam seems to have been hijacked, and women are, once again, the first hostages. Why should women sympathise with the hijackers? Isn’t this a classic case of Stockholm syndrome?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Egyptian leader Gamal Abdul Nasser with his family in the 1960s CREDIT: AFP/GETTY
> And what’s next? Should we also allow FGM to be respectful of different cultural practices? What about polygamy? In short, Western societies need to define what’s acceptable for them, and what’s not. There is a need to draw a line, and maybe the French have drawn it at the burkini. Is it futile? Maybe. But at least a social debate is starting. It’s a debate that societies simply can’t avoid forever.  Whether we like it or not, society must have a clear set of "inclusiveness principles", and it’s probably better to face the issue rather than ignore it.
> 
> Don’t get me wrong, if covering up was simply a matter of personal style I would be all for it. But let’s be honest: it’s fairly easy to see whether women cover up for religious reasons or not (for starters women would get a hat, not a veil). What makes me angry is when I am out in blistering heat, and I see a family at the beach with kids in bathing suits, the dad in swimming trunks, and the mum covered in black from head to toe. It’s modest and it’s for religious reasons, but those reasons clearly seem oppressive and unfair. I can’t understand why a husband would want his wife to wear this. And don’t even try to swim in such an attire.
> 
> In the end, the burkini and some other Islamic dresses are less innocuous than they seem. It has to do with an explicit inequality between genders, which is unacceptable under French law. Let’s face it: we already have far too many of such inequalities…So why should the French accept this one? And let’s not forget that Syrian women burnt burqas in celebration after being freed from Isil. In the meantime, in France, more Muslim women are peer-pressured to wear the veil or the burkini. This seems rather counter-intuitive.
> 
> In conclusion, it’s time to go back, understand and reinforce the principles that underpin our democracies. Integration is a two-way street. Was the ban the best way to deal with the issue? Probably not. But I sincerely hope that it will start a much-needed social debate, in France and anywhere else.
> 
> Why should France accept the burkini? Its time to debate integration head-on



Personally, I think it's shaky ground to allow "one pieces" or "modesty skirts". If I go to a French beach --- I want the entire French "experience" dammit !!!!

It's gonna be a generational thing.

It maybe that the next generation ends all of that. THey will marry more open-minded husbands, want to integrate into the workforce and STILL be a practicing Muslim. Besides tolerance -- there's patience. It's a HUGE cultural adjustment. FORCING adjustment does not seem productive. Just like FORCING tolerance out of the picture by replacing it with law may not be productive.

The focus should be on NOT housing recent immigrants in LARGE closed govt housing where adaptation is NEVER likely to happen. And insisting on making French law dominant over religious law.. There's the priorities really. Focus on those.


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## flacaltenn

Tilly said:


> The burqini was designed in line with the misogynistic Islamic code of modesty. It reinforces the belief that women's body's are somehow shameful, and that women must take on all the responsibility for men who apparently cannot control their sexual urges. Men can bare themselves at the beach, and at the pool - why don't they have to shroud themselves? Women have to cover up and appear as though they are members of some third world backwards tribe where equality does not exist.
> Women and children have been attacked by muslims in France for wearing shorts and T shirts, and bikinis. These kind of attacks will only continue if the French gvmnt is seen to endorse the belief that women should be covered up, whilst men are absolutely not expected to.
> There are plenty of ways to dress modestly at the beach without announcing you are a muslim woman. If that is too arduous for them, perhaps they should consider living in a Muslim country instead of trying to change the established cultures of Europe, where people fought long and hard for the equality and rights they have now.



So it's a matter of "style" then? Maybe you just need a few fully gay Paris designers to offer a spring line of "modesty suits".. 

And how do you change the culture of France by wearing a burkini? Shouldn't we be MORE concerned about certain Muslim mayors banning Bikini ads from city transportation? I can see the latter being FAR more corrosive to established culture than a bathing suit choice.


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## flacaltenn

Don't know guys. The RIGHT burkini looks good to me. 








When you grew up with women in wetsuits out sharing the waves ---- THAT ^^^^ bothers me less than some of the horrors I can't UNSEE from my beach days.


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## skye

flacaltenn said:


> Don't know guys. The RIGHT burkini looks good to me.
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> When you grew up with women in wetsuits out sharing the waves ---- THAT ^^^^ bothers me less than some of the horrors I can't UNSEE from my beach days.






Why a burkini when you can have a bikini???   hehe


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## flacaltenn

skye said:


> flacaltenn said:
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> Why a burkini when you can have a bikini???   hehe
Click to expand...



Well --- I AM a sucker for tans. This is sounding like an old Beach Boys tune now. 

We all know that there dozens of Hollywood mansions kept by rich Arab men so that they can come here and see stuff like that, drink a bit, watch porn and slum around with no judgement. Don't think they get scolded or imprisoned when they return to Abi Dhabi or Saudi..  It's irresistable.  That's why they hate us.   Right ^^^^ up there....


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## Esmeralda

Alex. said:


> *"‘I am commanded by Allah to be modest’*
> 
> I enjoy wearing the burkini. As a Muslim woman I am encouraged by the Qur’an not to wear the same as non-Muslims and to remain identifiably Muslim at all times. Anyone who says otherwise is either putting their love of the _dunya_ (or their culture first. As a Muslim, we believe this world is a temporary pleasure trap. It will seduce you from your _akhira_ (our rewards in the afterlife). I am also commanded by Allah to be modest (_hayaa_) and observe hijab at all times. So I am covered up from legs to neck and my lower arms are on display when there are women or family members present. I’m white British, and a revert Muslim. "
> 
> Why we wear the burkini: five women on dressing modestly at the beach
> 
> Such is the life of someone who follows their faith.


They are not commanded by Allah to wear the burkini, the abaya, the hijab, etc.


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## Esmeralda

Coyote said:


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> Don't worry -- your role is safe from competition.
> 
> Your arguments strike me as much akin to those of pedophiles when it comes to their having sex with children, though. Now, I realize you don't really oppose that, either, but pedophiles also argue that it is the child's choice -- actually empowering to them just as you argue in cases of women under the yoke of Islam. You see, if pedophiles can start grooming children at a young enough age, they come to accept it as normal and by the time they are seven or eight, they will actually claim it is their choice. Similarly, in these Islamic cultures you love so much, girls are conditioned from a very young age -- groomed for their role just as thoroughly as the pedophiles groom children for sex. You do not worry about this exploitation, of course, since you are simply looking for an opportunity to call people a bigot or an Islamophobe or a racist since that makes you feel good about yourself, but you are propping up an entire system of degradation here.
> 
> Calling these symbols of female subservience a "choice" is simply one of those ruses you use time and time again to invert the true nature of what you actually support.  A women who has been groomed from the time she was a child to say it is her "choice" is no different than an 8 year old saying her having sex with a 42 year old man is hers. The same type of grooming is invo
> 
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> StLucieBengal said:
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> *This is where i am at...  Our women can't wear normal clothes over there so why on earth should we bend over backwards for their nonsense.     *
> 
> If our women need to put on a scarf and cover up all skin then when they Muslims come to the west they can wear tank tops and shorts.   And if it's that big of an issue for them then they can just not come.     Just as we can not go there if we don't wanna respect their ways.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Precisely because we ARE NOT those countries we can allow women to choose to wear what they want.  We don't impose irrational standards on them.  Why do people seem to think we should be like those countries?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Who says it's irrational? It's a matter of perspective, and culture is alI about perspective.  Is preserving and protecting one's culture irrational?  Is allowing  a dominant minority of immigrants to refuse to adapt to the culture rational?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How many free, pluralistic and democratic countries such as France or the US mandate standards of clothing other than minimal required coverage?
> 
> How is choosing a more modest swimsuit style for ONESELF - refusing to adapt to a culture that has, up to now, imposed no standard on beachwear other than minimal coverage?
> 
> If the dominant culture prefered wearing thongs and you were highly uncomfortable wearing them - should you be forced to?  Maybe in Saudi Arabia where there are no individual rights (subsitute Burka) - but in a country like the US?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is not about clothing.  As I have said, thie issue is not strictly the burkini per se. This is aobut a refusal to adapt to the culture.  I have spent a lot of time in France and a have been noting the impact of the large population of Muslims there.  They are mostly poor, uneducated, religious people who come to France for economic reasons.  They don't embrace the culture nor do they adapt to it.  They scorn French customs and perspectives. They take advantage of the freedoms (such as wearing whatever you want) and better economic conditions but do not embrace or love the country itself. That is the statement the burkini makes.  The French are offended by this and quite rightly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then perhaps the thing to do is not to ban an article of clothing that allows these women to enjoy the beach - banning it will do nothing to encourage integration into French society and will more likely have the opposite effect, creating increased isolation and division because they won't go out.
> 
> I'll give you a parallel.  In Minnesota (I think) is a significant community of Somali immigrants - refugees resettled there.  Their community is in an area with many lakes and bodies of water, and drowning deaths are not uncommon.  Most people know how to swim, and there are many town programs sponsoring swimming lessons.  The problem is that the Somali women and girls don't know how to swim, and there had been a number of drowning deaths.  Because their religion forbids them from uncovering themselves around strange men, they were not able to take part in any of these programs.  The local police department together the YMCA put together an ingenious program.  They set up an hour  one night a week for women/girls only swimming - no men.  It was open to all women and girls, in any style of swimwear, not just the Somali's.  They learned how to swim, but more than that - they met new people, and made friends in the community.  These people had been through a lot of trauma  The girls were becoming more confident, and making new friends in school.  It was a win-win for the town, for the Somali refugees and for successful integration into the community.
> 
> It wasn't all lightness and honey though - there were those who protested, who claimed it was giving in to "creeping Sharia" etc.  They could have just said - screw those girls and women, if they don't want to accept our culture and swim with men and wear western style swimwear - then they can stay at home. What would that have accomplished?  Better integration?  Or more isolation?
> 
> It seems in France, a burkini is a means of allowing women who might otherwise not go out and mingle on a holiday beach or in the water just like any French person, a chance to do so and the more they mingle, the more they are going to learn about each other.  If France has an integration problem - banning the burkini is not going to solve it.
Click to expand...

Saving lives became a serious problem, so the local community was forced to adapt to the immigrants. But my position is that immigrants should adapt to their new country; the country they choose to  live in should not have to adapt to them.  When in Rome...adapt, accept, embrace your new country.


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## StLucieBengal

Esmeralda said:


> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> *"‘I am commanded by Allah to be modest’*
> 
> I enjoy wearing the burkini. As a Muslim woman I am encouraged by the Qur’an not to wear the same as non-Muslims and to remain identifiably Muslim at all times. Anyone who says otherwise is either putting their love of the _dunya_ (or their culture first. As a Muslim, we believe this world is a temporary pleasure trap. It will seduce you from your _akhira_ (our rewards in the afterlife). I am also commanded by Allah to be modest (_hayaa_) and observe hijab at all times. So I am covered up from legs to neck and my lower arms are on display when there are women or family members present. I’m white British, and a revert Muslim. "
> 
> Why we wear the burkini: five women on dressing modestly at the beach
> 
> Such is the life of someone who follows their faith.
> 
> 
> 
> They are not commanded by Allah to wear the burkini, the abaya, the hijab, etc.
Click to expand...


This is true that oppressive gear predates Islam and the Koran.    

It's just their way to oppress women and treat them like dogs


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## StLucieBengal

skye said:


> flacaltenn said:
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> Don't know guys. The RIGHT burkini looks good to me.
> 
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> When you grew up with women in wetsuits out sharing the waves ---- THAT ^^^^ bothers me less than some of the horrors I can't UNSEE from my beach days.
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> Why a burkini when you can have a bikini???   hehe
Click to expand...



Yes please.


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## Mindful

flacaltenn said:


> Don't know guys. The RIGHT burkini looks good to me.
> 
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> When you grew up with women in wetsuits out sharing the waves ---- THAT ^^^^ bothers me less than some of the horrors I can't UNSEE from my beach days.




Women in wet suits. Ha ha.

A senior Tory MP has waded into the burkini row, saying concealment “leaves more to the imagination”.

Sir Desmond Swayne, a former minister, said that there is “something quite attractive, alluring, even sensual” about garments that aren’t too revealing.

His comments come as a response to a constituent’s concern about the burkini row in France after the country’s top administrative court overturned the controversial burkini ban last week.





*Tory MP Sir Desmond Swayne said that concealment ‘leaves more to the imagination’.*
The ban was overturned following outrage after a Muslim woman sitting on a Nice beach was forced by four armed police officers to remove her burkini.

Sir Desmond said that as a “hot-blooded male” he can appreciate a bikini-clad body, but that concealment is still “alluring”.

The New Forest West MP said that it was for the French authorities to sort out their own affairs, but “as a general rule, most of us look far better with all our clothes on”.

In a blog post on his website, Sir Desmond wrote that he had received an “outraged email” from a constituent in Barton-on-Sea who was “disgusted” that the burkini ban had been overturned by a French court.
“Alas, the court is not accountable to me, and the French must sort out their own affairs.

“In any event, I am confident that no burkinis have been seen in Barton-on-Sea, or on any other beach in the New Forest parliamentary division.

“Am I disappointed? I have always taken the view that people should feel free to show off as little or as much as they like, when it comes to beachwear.

“Like any hot-blooded male however, I appreciate beauty, which can sometimes be enhanced by a bikini. Equally, often there can be something quite attractive, alluring, even sensual, about concealment. It leaves more to the imagination.

“Whilst there are of course exceptions, as a general rule, most of us look far better with all our clothes on.”

Huffington Post.


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## Mindful

StLucieBengal said:


> skye said:
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> 
> 
> 
> When you grew up with women in wetsuits out sharing the waves ---- THAT ^^^^ bothers me less than some of the horrors I can't UNSEE from my beach days.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why a burkini when you can have a bikini???   hehe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes please.
Click to expand...


I went yesterday to my favourite Turkish cafe for a Gözleme. The woman who cooked it for me wore a head covering. Which contrasted starkly with the girl sitting by the window wearing a backless summer top. No burkhas, but the whole place was full of a contradiction in terms. My beautiful waitress, head covered, but with the most elaborately and seductively made up eyes. 

But, to make the point of alluring concealment.  The women whose bodies were totally covered; those garments clung to every curve. 

What would any normal hot blooded male make of that?


----------



## gtopa1

Mindful said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't know guys. The RIGHT burkini looks good to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When you grew up with women in wetsuits out sharing the waves ---- THAT ^^^^ bothers me less than some of the horrors I can't UNSEE from my beach days.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why a burkini when you can have a bikini???   hehe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes please.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I went yesterday to my favourite Turkish cafe for a Gözleme. The woman who cooked it for me wore a head covering. Which contrasted starkly with the girl sitting by the window wearing a backless summer top. No burkhas, but the whole place was full of a contradiction in terms. My beautiful waitress, head covered, but with the most elaborately and seductively made up eyes.
> 
> But, to make the point of alluring concealment.  The women whose bodies were totally covered; those garments clung to every curve.
> 
> What would any normal hot blooded male make of that?
Click to expand...


Nothing if the food was crappy!!!

Greg


----------



## Mindful

gtopa1 said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't know guys. The RIGHT burkini looks good to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When you grew up with women in wetsuits out sharing the waves ---- THAT ^^^^ bothers me less than some of the horrors I can't UNSEE from my beach days.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why a burkini when you can have a bikini???   hehe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes please.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I went yesterday to my favourite Turkish cafe for a Gözleme. The woman who cooked it for me wore a head covering. Which contrasted starkly with the girl sitting by the window wearing a backless summer top. No burkhas, but the whole place was full of a contradiction in terms. My beautiful waitress, head covered, but with the most elaborately and seductively made up eyes.
> 
> But, to make the point of alluring concealment.  The women whose bodies were totally covered; those garments clung to every curve.
> 
> What would any normal hot blooded male make of that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nothing if the food was crappy!!!
> 
> Greg
Click to expand...


Brilliant food.

Win win situation for all concerned. Including hot blooded males.


----------



## StLucieBengal

Mindful said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't know guys. The RIGHT burkini looks good to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When you grew up with women in wetsuits out sharing the waves ---- THAT ^^^^ bothers me less than some of the horrors I can't UNSEE from my beach days.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why a burkini when you can have a bikini???   hehe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes please.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I went yesterday to my favourite Turkish cafe for a Gözleme. The woman who cooked it for me wore a head covering. Which contrasted starkly with the girl sitting by the window wearing a backless summer top. No burkhas, but the whole place was full of a contradiction in terms. My beautiful waitress, head covered, but with the most elaborately and seductively made up eyes.
> 
> But, to make the point of alluring concealment.  The women whose bodies were totally covered; those garments clung to every curve.
> 
> What would any normal hot blooded male make of that?
Click to expand...



Yeah I guess I am old fashioned.   Just not into ninjas.    I like to see more than just eyes.    

Besides these days you never know .... Could be a tranny under there....


----------



## StLucieBengal

Mindful said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't know guys. The RIGHT burkini looks good to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When you grew up with women in wetsuits out sharing the waves ---- THAT ^^^^ bothers me less than some of the horrors I can't UNSEE from my beach days.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why a burkini when you can have a bikini???   hehe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes please.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I went yesterday to my favourite Turkish cafe for a Gözleme. The woman who cooked it for me wore a head covering. Which contrasted starkly with the girl sitting by the window wearing a backless summer top. No burkhas, but the whole place was full of a contradiction in terms. My beautiful waitress, head covered, but with the most elaborately and seductively made up eyes.
> 
> But, to make the point of alluring concealment.  The women whose bodies were totally covered; those garments clung to every curve.
> 
> What would any normal hot blooded male make of that?
Click to expand...



Side note of Turkish fare.   One of my mates is Turkish and it's great when we go over to his house everytime the food is wonderful.   Plus he always has amazing tea.    

What's funny is that they love to come over to our house for the Belorussian fare.


----------



## Mindful

StLucieBengal said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't know guys. The RIGHT burkini looks good to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When you grew up with women in wetsuits out sharing the waves ---- THAT ^^^^ bothers me less than some of the horrors I can't UNSEE from my beach days.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why a burkini when you can have a bikini???   hehe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes please.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I went yesterday to my favourite Turkish cafe for a Gözleme. The woman who cooked it for me wore a head covering. Which contrasted starkly with the girl sitting by the window wearing a backless summer top. No burkhas, but the whole place was full of a contradiction in terms. My beautiful waitress, head covered, but with the most elaborately and seductively made up eyes.
> 
> But, to make the point of alluring concealment.  The women whose bodies were totally covered; those garments clung to every curve.
> 
> What would any normal hot blooded male make of that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah I guess I am old fashioned.   Just not into ninjas.    I like to see more than just eyes.
> 
> Besides these days you never know .... Could be a tranny under there....
Click to expand...


I might hang  out with the ninjas today. They frequent the expensive coffee bars.
I like looking at the designer bags, and catching the waftings of Chanel no. 5.


----------



## StLucieBengal

Mindful said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't know guys. The RIGHT burkini looks good to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When you grew up with women in wetsuits out sharing the waves ---- THAT ^^^^ bothers me less than some of the horrors I can't UNSEE from my beach days.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why a burkini when you can have a bikini???   hehe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes please.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I went yesterday to my favourite Turkish cafe for a Gözleme. The woman who cooked it for me wore a head covering. Which contrasted starkly with the girl sitting by the window wearing a backless summer top. No burkhas, but the whole place was full of a contradiction in terms. My beautiful waitress, head covered, but with the most elaborately and seductively made up eyes.
> 
> But, to make the point of alluring concealment.  The women whose bodies were totally covered; those garments clung to every curve.
> 
> What would any normal hot blooded male make of that?
Click to expand...



Side note of Turkish fare.   One of my mates is Turkish and it's great when we go over to his house everytime the food is wonderful.   Plus he always has amazing tea.    

What's funny is that they love to come over to our house for the Belorussian fare.


----------



## Mindful

StLucieBengal said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't know guys. The RIGHT burkini looks good to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When you grew up with women in wetsuits out sharing the waves ---- THAT ^^^^ bothers me less than some of the horrors I can't UNSEE from my beach days.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why a burkini when you can have a bikini???   hehe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes please.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I went yesterday to my favourite Turkish cafe for a Gözleme. The woman who cooked it for me wore a head covering. Which contrasted starkly with the girl sitting by the window wearing a backless summer top. No burkhas, but the whole place was full of a contradiction in terms. My beautiful waitress, head covered, but with the most elaborately and seductively made up eyes.
> 
> But, to make the point of alluring concealment.  The women whose bodies were totally covered; those garments clung to every curve.
> 
> What would any normal hot blooded male make of that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah I guess I am old fashioned.   Just not into ninjas.    I like to see more than just eyes.
> 
> Besides these days you never know .... Could be a tranny under there....
Click to expand...


I might hang  out with the ninjas today. They frequent the expensive coffee bars.
I like looking at the designer bags, and catching the waftings of Chanel no. 5.


----------



## StLucieBengal

Mindful said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't know guys. The RIGHT burkini looks good to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When you grew up with women in wetsuits out sharing the waves ---- THAT ^^^^ bothers me less than some of the horrors I can't UNSEE from my beach days.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why a burkini when you can have a bikini???   hehe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes please.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I went yesterday to my favourite Turkish cafe for a Gözleme. The woman who cooked it for me wore a head covering. Which contrasted starkly with the girl sitting by the window wearing a backless summer top. No burkhas, but the whole place was full of a contradiction in terms. My beautiful waitress, head covered, but with the most elaborately and seductively made up eyes.
> 
> But, to make the point of alluring concealment.  The women whose bodies were totally covered; those garments clung to every curve.
> 
> What would any normal hot blooded male make of that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah I guess I am old fashioned.   Just not into ninjas.    I like to see more than just eyes.
> 
> Besides these days you never know .... Could be a tranny under there....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I might hang  out with the ninjas today. They frequent the expensive coffee bars.
> I like looking at the designer bags, and catching the waftings of Chanel no. 5.
Click to expand...


Well be careful...


----------



## xband

StLucieBengal said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't know guys. The RIGHT burkini looks good to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When you grew up with women in wetsuits out sharing the waves ---- THAT ^^^^ bothers me less than some of the horrors I can't UNSEE from my beach days.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why a burkini when you can have a bikini???   hehe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes please.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I went yesterday to my favourite Turkish cafe for a Gözleme. The woman who cooked it for me wore a head covering. Which contrasted starkly with the girl sitting by the window wearing a backless summer top. No burkhas, but the whole place was full of a contradiction in terms. My beautiful waitress, head covered, but with the most elaborately and seductively made up eyes.
> 
> But, to make the point of alluring concealment.  The women whose bodies were totally covered; those garments clung to every curve.
> 
> What would any normal hot blooded male make of that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Side note of Turkish fare.   One of my mates is Turkish and it's great when we go over to his house everytime the food is wonderful.   Plus he always has amazing tea.
> 
> What's funny is that they love to come over to our house for the Belorussian fare.
Click to expand...


I have read the term Belorussian but don't know what it means. I have drank Turkish Tea before and it gives a high that the DEA will probably label a schedule 1 drug.


----------



## gtopa1

StLucieBengal said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't know guys. The RIGHT burkini looks good to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When you grew up with women in wetsuits out sharing the waves ---- THAT ^^^^ bothers me less than some of the horrors I can't UNSEE from my beach days.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why a burkini when you can have a bikini???   hehe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes please.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I went yesterday to my favourite Turkish cafe for a Gözleme. The woman who cooked it for me wore a head covering. Which contrasted starkly with the girl sitting by the window wearing a backless summer top. No burkhas, but the whole place was full of a contradiction in terms. My beautiful waitress, head covered, but with the most elaborately and seductively made up eyes.
> 
> But, to make the point of alluring concealment.  The women whose bodies were totally covered; those garments clung to every curve.
> 
> What would any normal hot blooded male make of that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Side note of Turkish fare.   One of my mates is Turkish and it's great when we go over to his house everytime the food is wonderful.   Plus he always has amazing tea.
> 
> What's funny is that they love to come over to our house for the Belorussian fare.
Click to expand...


Yummy!!!!

Greg


----------



## gtopa1

StLucieBengal said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't know guys. The RIGHT burkini looks good to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When you grew up with women in wetsuits out sharing the waves ---- THAT ^^^^ bothers me less than some of the horrors I can't UNSEE from my beach days.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why a burkini when you can have a bikini???   hehe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes please.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I went yesterday to my favourite Turkish cafe for a Gözleme. The woman who cooked it for me wore a head covering. Which contrasted starkly with the girl sitting by the window wearing a backless summer top. No burkhas, but the whole place was full of a contradiction in terms. My beautiful waitress, head covered, but with the most elaborately and seductively made up eyes.
> 
> But, to make the point of alluring concealment.  The women whose bodies were totally covered; those garments clung to every curve.
> 
> What would any normal hot blooded male make of that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Side note of Turkish fare.   One of my mates is Turkish and it's great when we go over to his house everytime the food is wonderful.   Plus he always has amazing tea.
> 
> What's funny is that they love to come over to our house for the Belorussian fare.
Click to expand...


Turkish tucker is fine but it is one bias I admit to; I loathe and despise Turks!! (OK: Ottomans precisely) but I still get angry at the mention of "Turks". 

Greg


----------



## xband

gtopa1 said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't know guys. The RIGHT burkini looks good to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When you grew up with women in wetsuits out sharing the waves ---- THAT ^^^^ bothers me less than some of the horrors I can't UNSEE from my beach days.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why a burkini when you can have a bikini???   hehe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes please.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I went yesterday to my favourite Turkish cafe for a Gözleme. The woman who cooked it for me wore a head covering. Which contrasted starkly with the girl sitting by the window wearing a backless summer top. No burkhas, but the whole place was full of a contradiction in terms. My beautiful waitress, head covered, but with the most elaborately and seductively made up eyes.
> 
> But, to make the point of alluring concealment.  The women whose bodies were totally covered; those garments clung to every curve.
> 
> What would any normal hot blooded male make of that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Side note of Turkish fare.   One of my mates is Turkish and it's great when we go over to his house everytime the food is wonderful.   Plus he always has amazing tea.
> 
> What's funny is that they love to come over to our house for the Belorussian fare.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Turkish tucker is fine but it is one bias I admit to; I loathe and despise Turks!! (OK: Ottomans precisely) but I still get angry at the mention of "Turks".
> 
> Greg
Click to expand...


It is better to forget the past and move on to greater things. Stop the war and bring back Lebanese Blond Hash. THC does not make people fight.


----------



## Mindful

gtopa1 said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't know guys. The RIGHT burkini looks good to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When you grew up with women in wetsuits out sharing the waves ---- THAT ^^^^ bothers me less than some of the horrors I can't UNSEE from my beach days.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why a burkini when you can have a bikini???   hehe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes please.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I went yesterday to my favourite Turkish cafe for a Gözleme. The woman who cooked it for me wore a head covering. Which contrasted starkly with the girl sitting by the window wearing a backless summer top. No burkhas, but the whole place was full of a contradiction in terms. My beautiful waitress, head covered, but with the most elaborately and seductively made up eyes.
> 
> But, to make the point of alluring concealment.  The women whose bodies were totally covered; those garments clung to every curve.
> 
> What would any normal hot blooded male make of that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Side note of Turkish fare.   One of my mates is Turkish and it's great when we go over to his house everytime the food is wonderful.   Plus he always has amazing tea.
> 
> What's funny is that they love to come over to our house for the Belorussian fare.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Turkish tucker is fine but it is one bias I admit to; I loathe and despise Turks!! (OK: Ottomans precisely) but I still get angry at the mention of "Turks".
> 
> Greg
Click to expand...


The difference between them and Arabs is like night and day.

 It's like a microcosm of cultures in a small area where I live.


----------



## Mindful

xband said:


> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why a burkini when you can have a bikini???   hehe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes please.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I went yesterday to my favourite Turkish cafe for a Gözleme. The woman who cooked it for me wore a head covering. Which contrasted starkly with the girl sitting by the window wearing a backless summer top. No burkhas, but the whole place was full of a contradiction in terms. My beautiful waitress, head covered, but with the most elaborately and seductively made up eyes.
> 
> But, to make the point of alluring concealment.  The women whose bodies were totally covered; those garments clung to every curve.
> 
> What would any normal hot blooded male make of that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Side note of Turkish fare.   One of my mates is Turkish and it's great when we go over to his house everytime the food is wonderful.   Plus he always has amazing tea.
> 
> What's funny is that they love to come over to our house for the Belorussian fare.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Turkish tucker is fine but it is one bias I admit to; I loathe and despise Turks!! (OK: Ottomans precisely) but I still get angry at the mention of "Turks".
> 
> Greg
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It is better to forget the past and move on to greater things. Stop the war and bring back Lebanese Blond Hash. THC does not make people fight.
Click to expand...


We could all go down to the beach today.


----------



## xband

Mindful said:


> xband said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes please.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I went yesterday to my favourite Turkish cafe for a Gözleme. The woman who cooked it for me wore a head covering. Which contrasted starkly with the girl sitting by the window wearing a backless summer top. No burkhas, but the whole place was full of a contradiction in terms. My beautiful waitress, head covered, but with the most elaborately and seductively made up eyes.
> 
> But, to make the point of alluring concealment.  The women whose bodies were totally covered; those garments clung to every curve.
> 
> What would any normal hot blooded male make of that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Side note of Turkish fare.   One of my mates is Turkish and it's great when we go over to his house everytime the food is wonderful.   Plus he always has amazing tea.
> 
> What's funny is that they love to come over to our house for the Belorussian fare.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Turkish tucker is fine but it is one bias I admit to; I loathe and despise Turks!! (OK: Ottomans precisely) but I still get angry at the mention of "Turks".
> 
> Greg
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It is better to forget the past and move on to greater things. Stop the war and bring back Lebanese Blond Hash. THC does not make people fight.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We could all go down to the beach today.
Click to expand...


Cookout on the beach with beer and steaks is a darn good idea on the North Shore of Oahu at night with pure white sand coral beach. I strongly advice not swimming on the Pipeline like I did with a belly full of Foster's Ale.


----------



## StLucieBengal

xband said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't know guys. The RIGHT burkini looks good to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When you grew up with women in wetsuits out sharing the waves ---- THAT ^^^^ bothers me less than some of the horrors I can't UNSEE from my beach days.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why a burkini when you can have a bikini???   hehe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes please.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I went yesterday to my favourite Turkish cafe for a Gözleme. The woman who cooked it for me wore a head covering. Which contrasted starkly with the girl sitting by the window wearing a backless summer top. No burkhas, but the whole place was full of a contradiction in terms. My beautiful waitress, head covered, but with the most elaborately and seductively made up eyes.
> 
> But, to make the point of alluring concealment.  The women whose bodies were totally covered; those garments clung to every curve.
> 
> What would any normal hot blooded male make of that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Side note of Turkish fare.   One of my mates is Turkish and it's great when we go over to his house everytime the food is wonderful.   Plus he always has amazing tea.
> 
> What's funny is that they love to come over to our house for the Belorussian fare.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have read the term Belorussian but don't know what it means. I have drank Turkish Tea before and it gives a high that the DEA will probably label a schedule 1 drug.
Click to expand...


A Belarusian is just another word for a native of Belarus.    You will also see Belorusian at times as well since it refers back to the Soviet days of Byelosrussian Soviet socialist republic.    Most non belarusians will call it that ....

Belarus loosely translates into White Russia but that gets into regiona and really more than needs to be gotten into on a message board.


----------



## xband

StLucieBengal said:


> xband said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why a burkini when you can have a bikini???   hehe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes please.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I went yesterday to my favourite Turkish cafe for a Gözleme. The woman who cooked it for me wore a head covering. Which contrasted starkly with the girl sitting by the window wearing a backless summer top. No burkhas, but the whole place was full of a contradiction in terms. My beautiful waitress, head covered, but with the most elaborately and seductively made up eyes.
> 
> But, to make the point of alluring concealment.  The women whose bodies were totally covered; those garments clung to every curve.
> 
> What would any normal hot blooded male make of that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Side note of Turkish fare.   One of my mates is Turkish and it's great when we go over to his house everytime the food is wonderful.   Plus he always has amazing tea.
> 
> What's funny is that they love to come over to our house for the Belorussian fare.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have read the term Belorussian but don't know what it means. I have drank Turkish Tea before and it gives a high that the DEA will probably label a schedule 1 drug.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> A Belarusian is just another word for a native of Belarus.    You will also see Belorusian at times as well since it refers back to the Soviet days of Byelosrussian Soviet socialist republic.    Most non belarusians will call it that ....
Click to expand...


Tell me about Belarus. I know that there is another Georgia over there but not much else. I spent my military time in the Far East and am hungry for knowledge of any kind.


----------



## gtopa1

Esmeralda said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Precisely because we ARE NOT those countries we can allow women to choose to wear what they want.  We don't impose irrational standards on them.  Why do people seem to think we should be like those countries?
> 
> 
> 
> Who says it's irrational? It's a matter of perspective, and culture is alI about perspective.  Is preserving and protecting one's culture irrational?  Is allowing  a dominant minority of immigrants to refuse to adapt to the culture rational?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How many free, pluralistic and democratic countries such as France or the US mandate standards of clothing other than minimal required coverage?
> 
> How is choosing a more modest swimsuit style for ONESELF - refusing to adapt to a culture that has, up to now, imposed no standard on beachwear other than minimal coverage?
> 
> If the dominant culture prefered wearing thongs and you were highly uncomfortable wearing them - should you be forced to?  Maybe in Saudi Arabia where there are no individual rights (subsitute Burka) - but in a country like the US?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is not about clothing.  As I have said, thie issue is not strictly the burkini per se. This is aobut a refusal to adapt to the culture.  I have spent a lot of time in France and a have been noting the impact of the large population of Muslims there.  They are mostly poor, uneducated, religious people who come to France for economic reasons.  They don't embrace the culture nor do they adapt to it.  They scorn French customs and perspectives. They take advantage of the freedoms (such as wearing whatever you want) and better economic conditions but do not embrace or love the country itself. That is the statement the burkini makes.  The French are offended by this and quite rightly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then perhaps the thing to do is not to ban an article of clothing that allows these women to enjoy the beach - banning it will do nothing to encourage integration into French society and will more likely have the opposite effect, creating increased isolation and division because they won't go out.
> 
> I'll give you a parallel.  In Minnesota (I think) is a significant community of Somali immigrants - refugees resettled there.  Their community is in an area with many lakes and bodies of water, and drowning deaths are not uncommon.  Most people know how to swim, and there are many town programs sponsoring swimming lessons.  The problem is that the Somali women and girls don't know how to swim, and there had been a number of drowning deaths.  Because their religion forbids them from uncovering themselves around strange men, they were not able to take part in any of these programs.  The local police department together the YMCA put together an ingenious program.  They set up an hour  one night a week for women/girls only swimming - no men.  It was open to all women and girls, in any style of swimwear, not just the Somali's.  They learned how to swim, but more than that - they met new people, and made friends in the community.  These people had been through a lot of trauma  The girls were becoming more confident, and making new friends in school.  It was a win-win for the town, for the Somali refugees and for successful integration into the community.
> 
> It wasn't all lightness and honey though - there were those who protested, who claimed it was giving in to "creeping Sharia" etc.  They could have just said - screw those girls and women, if they don't want to accept our culture and swim with men and wear western style swimwear - then they can stay at home. What would that have accomplished?  Better integration?  Or more isolation?
> 
> It seems in France, a burkini is a means of allowing women who might otherwise not go out and mingle on a holiday beach or in the water just like any French person, a chance to do so and the more they mingle, the more they are going to learn about each other.  If France has an integration problem - banning the burkini is not going to solve it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Saving lives became a serious problem, so the local community was forced to adapt to the immigrants. But my position is that immigrants should adapt to their new country; the country they choose to  live in should not have to adapt to them.  When in Rome...adapt, accept, embrace your new country.
Click to expand...


I agree for the most part. I had to wear long trousers to get into the Sistine Chapel. I was outraged(OK: meekly compliant). But I'm not allowed to wear my preferred style of clothes there!!

Greg


----------



## StLucieBengal

xband said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> xband said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes please.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I went yesterday to my favourite Turkish cafe for a Gözleme. The woman who cooked it for me wore a head covering. Which contrasted starkly with the girl sitting by the window wearing a backless summer top. No burkhas, but the whole place was full of a contradiction in terms. My beautiful waitress, head covered, but with the most elaborately and seductively made up eyes.
> 
> But, to make the point of alluring concealment.  The women whose bodies were totally covered; those garments clung to every curve.
> 
> What would any normal hot blooded male make of that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Side note of Turkish fare.   One of my mates is Turkish and it's great when we go over to his house everytime the food is wonderful.   Plus he always has amazing tea.
> 
> What's funny is that they love to come over to our house for the Belorussian fare.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have read the term Belorussian but don't know what it means. I have drank Turkish Tea before and it gives a high that the DEA will probably label a schedule 1 drug.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> A Belarusian is just another word for a native of Belarus.    You will also see Belorusian at times as well since it refers back to the Soviet days of Byelosrussian Soviet socialist republic.    Most non belarusians will call it that ....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Tell me about Belarus. I know that there is another Georgia over there but not much else. I spent my military time in the Far East and am hungry for knowledge of any kind.
Click to expand...


My wife is the native.    Personally I love the history.   But I am a sucker for world history from about 1880's through now.    The history of the former soviet states has always fascinated me since growing up we never heard anything more than propaganda.


----------



## xband

gtopa1 said:


> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who says it's irrational? It's a matter of perspective, and culture is alI about perspective.  Is preserving and protecting one's culture irrational?  Is allowing  a dominant minority of immigrants to refuse to adapt to the culture rational?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How many free, pluralistic and democratic countries such as France or the US mandate standards of clothing other than minimal required coverage?
> 
> How is choosing a more modest swimsuit style for ONESELF - refusing to adapt to a culture that has, up to now, imposed no standard on beachwear other than minimal coverage?
> 
> If the dominant culture prefered wearing thongs and you were highly uncomfortable wearing them - should you be forced to?  Maybe in Saudi Arabia where there are no individual rights (subsitute Burka) - but in a country like the US?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is not about clothing.  As I have said, thie issue is not strictly the burkini per se. This is aobut a refusal to adapt to the culture.  I have spent a lot of time in France and a have been noting the impact of the large population of Muslims there.  They are mostly poor, uneducated, religious people who come to France for economic reasons.  They don't embrace the culture nor do they adapt to it.  They scorn French customs and perspectives. They take advantage of the freedoms (such as wearing whatever you want) and better economic conditions but do not embrace or love the country itself. That is the statement the burkini makes.  The French are offended by this and quite rightly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then perhaps the thing to do is not to ban an article of clothing that allows these women to enjoy the beach - banning it will do nothing to encourage integration into French society and will more likely have the opposite effect, creating increased isolation and division because they won't go out.
> 
> I'll give you a parallel.  In Minnesota (I think) is a significant community of Somali immigrants - refugees resettled there.  Their community is in an area with many lakes and bodies of water, and drowning deaths are not uncommon.  Most people know how to swim, and there are many town programs sponsoring swimming lessons.  The problem is that the Somali women and girls don't know how to swim, and there had been a number of drowning deaths.  Because their religion forbids them from uncovering themselves around strange men, they were not able to take part in any of these programs.  The local police department together the YMCA put together an ingenious program.  They set up an hour  one night a week for women/girls only swimming - no men.  It was open to all women and girls, in any style of swimwear, not just the Somali's.  They learned how to swim, but more than that - they met new people, and made friends in the community.  These people had been through a lot of trauma  The girls were becoming more confident, and making new friends in school.  It was a win-win for the town, for the Somali refugees and for successful integration into the community.
> 
> It wasn't all lightness and honey though - there were those who protested, who claimed it was giving in to "creeping Sharia" etc.  They could have just said - screw those girls and women, if they don't want to accept our culture and swim with men and wear western style swimwear - then they can stay at home. What would that have accomplished?  Better integration?  Or more isolation?
> 
> It seems in France, a burkini is a means of allowing women who might otherwise not go out and mingle on a holiday beach or in the water just like any French person, a chance to do so and the more they mingle, the more they are going to learn about each other.  If France has an integration problem - banning the burkini is not going to solve it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Saving lives became a serious problem, so the local community was forced to adapt to the immigrants. But my position is that immigrants should adapt to their new country; the country they choose to  live in should not have to adapt to them.  When in Rome...adapt, accept, embrace your new country.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree for the most part. I had to wear long trousers to get into the Sistine Chapel. I was outraged(OK: meekly compliant). But I'm not allowed to wear my preferred style of clothes there!!
> 
> Greg
Click to expand...


I once had more than one contract in the Pentagon. If it was an emergency call and me wearing swimming trunks is legal to gain entrance to the war room and probably could have gone in buck ass naked to fix their stupid computer.


----------



## gtopa1

xband said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> xband said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> I went yesterday to my favourite Turkish cafe for a Gözleme. The woman who cooked it for me wore a head covering. Which contrasted starkly with the girl sitting by the window wearing a backless summer top. No burkhas, but the whole place was full of a contradiction in terms. My beautiful waitress, head covered, but with the most elaborately and seductively made up eyes.
> 
> But, to make the point of alluring concealment.  The women whose bodies were totally covered; those garments clung to every curve.
> 
> What would any normal hot blooded male make of that?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Side note of Turkish fare.   One of my mates is Turkish and it's great when we go over to his house everytime the food is wonderful.   Plus he always has amazing tea.
> 
> What's funny is that they love to come over to our house for the Belorussian fare.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Turkish tucker is fine but it is one bias I admit to; I loathe and despise Turks!! (OK: Ottomans precisely) but I still get angry at the mention of "Turks".
> 
> Greg
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It is better to forget the past and move on to greater things. Stop the war and bring back Lebanese Blond Hash. THC does not make people fight.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We could all go down to the beach today.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Cookout on the beach with beer and steaks is a darn good idea on the North Shore of Oahu at night with pure white sand coral beach. I strongly advice not swimming on the Pipeline like I did with a belly full of Foster's Ale.
Click to expand...


Fosters?? What fool gave you that to drink?? 

Greg


----------



## gtopa1

Mindful said:


> xband said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes please.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I went yesterday to my favourite Turkish cafe for a Gözleme. The woman who cooked it for me wore a head covering. Which contrasted starkly with the girl sitting by the window wearing a backless summer top. No burkhas, but the whole place was full of a contradiction in terms. My beautiful waitress, head covered, but with the most elaborately and seductively made up eyes.
> 
> But, to make the point of alluring concealment.  The women whose bodies were totally covered; those garments clung to every curve.
> 
> What would any normal hot blooded male make of that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Side note of Turkish fare.   One of my mates is Turkish and it's great when we go over to his house everytime the food is wonderful.   Plus he always has amazing tea.
> 
> What's funny is that they love to come over to our house for the Belorussian fare.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Turkish tucker is fine but it is one bias I admit to; I loathe and despise Turks!! (OK: Ottomans precisely) but I still get angry at the mention of "Turks".
> 
> Greg
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It is better to forget the past and move on to greater things. Stop the war and bring back Lebanese Blond Hash. THC does not make people fight.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We could all go down to the beach today.
Click to expand...


I'm heading down the Coast on Sunday( Father's Day) with my two sons. The six girls have been invited but they decided against it...en bloc. We'll visit Dad and Grandad(graves) then ride from Southport to Coolangatta and back(length of the Gold Coast). Spring is here!!! Dunno if we'll get in a Barbie though. But a swim at Surfers Paradise is very much on the cards. No hash please; we're Aussies.

Greg


----------



## Alex.

Esmeralda said:


> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> *"‘I am commanded by Allah to be modest’*
> 
> I enjoy wearing the burkini. As a Muslim woman I am encouraged by the Qur’an not to wear the same as non-Muslims and to remain identifiably Muslim at all times. Anyone who says otherwise is either putting their love of the _dunya_ (or their culture first. As a Muslim, we believe this world is a temporary pleasure trap. It will seduce you from your _akhira_ (our rewards in the afterlife). I am also commanded by Allah to be modest (_hayaa_) and observe hijab at all times. So I am covered up from legs to neck and my lower arms are on display when there are women or family members present. I’m white British, and a revert Muslim. "
> 
> Why we wear the burkini: five women on dressing modestly at the beach
> 
> Such is the life of someone who follows their faith.
> 
> 
> 
> They are not commanded by Allah to wear the burkini, the abaya, the hijab, etc.
Click to expand...

According to the woman who wears it she is commanded as such.


----------



## Esmeralda

Alex. said:


> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> *"‘I am commanded by Allah to be modest’*
> 
> I enjoy wearing the burkini. As a Muslim woman I am encouraged by the Qur’an not to wear the same as non-Muslims and to remain identifiably Muslim at all times. Anyone who says otherwise is either putting their love of the _dunya_ (or their culture first. As a Muslim, we believe this world is a temporary pleasure trap. It will seduce you from your _akhira_ (our rewards in the afterlife). I am also commanded by Allah to be modest (_hayaa_) and observe hijab at all times. So I am covered up from legs to neck and my lower arms are on display when there are women or family members present. I’m white British, and a revert Muslim. "
> 
> Why we wear the burkini: five women on dressing modestly at the beach
> 
> Such is the life of someone who follows their faith.
> 
> 
> 
> They are not commanded by Allah to wear the burkini, the abaya, the hijab, etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> According to the woman who wears it she is commanded as such.
Click to expand...


That's her interpretation. There are Muslin women all over the world who do not cover. The Koran does not say to cover head to toe. It says to dress modestly.


----------



## ChrisL

Women should be able to wear what they want at the beach.  As long as they aren't hurting anyone else, it doesn't matter.  

Some of these women will not wear a bikini because it would go against their religious convictions.  Whether or not YOU feel that they were brainwashed into this mindset is rather irrelevant because, while I don't doubt that might be the case in many instances, it is certainly not the case in all instances because there are some women have converted to the Muslim religion of their own free will.  

To go onto a beach and to FORCE them to expose more skin than they feel comfortable exposing is just wrong!  That is not any better than the men who would FORCE them to cover up!


----------



## Coyote

ChrisL said:


> Women should be able to wear what they want at the beach.  As long as they aren't hurting anyone else, it doesn't matter.
> 
> Some of these women will not wear a bikini because it would go against their religious convictions.  Whether or not YOU feel that they were brainwashed into this mindset is rather irrelevant because, while I don't doubt that might be the case in many instances, it is certainly not the case in all instances because there are some women have converted to the Muslim religion of their own free will.
> 
> *To go onto a beach and to FORCE them to expose more skin than they feel comfortable exposing is just wrong!  That is not any better than the men who would FORCE them to cover up*!




That's basically how I feel.  There are standards in every country for the minimum amount of clothing required and I don't see an issue with that - you just adjust to that country.  But forcing a woman to expose MORE than she is comfortable with crosses a line imo - unless there is a good reason for it - security reasons or safety or ability to perform job.  IMO - there isn't much difference between forcing a woman to cover up and forcing a woman to uncover.


----------



## Coyote

Esmeralda said:


> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> *"‘I am commanded by Allah to be modest’*
> 
> I enjoy wearing the burkini. As a Muslim woman I am encouraged by the Qur’an not to wear the same as non-Muslims and to remain identifiably Muslim at all times. Anyone who says otherwise is either putting their love of the _dunya_ (or their culture first. As a Muslim, we believe this world is a temporary pleasure trap. It will seduce you from your _akhira_ (our rewards in the afterlife). I am also commanded by Allah to be modest (_hayaa_) and observe hijab at all times. So I am covered up from legs to neck and my lower arms are on display when there are women or family members present. I’m white British, and a revert Muslim. "
> 
> Why we wear the burkini: five women on dressing modestly at the beach
> 
> Such is the life of someone who follows their faith.
> 
> 
> 
> They are not commanded by Allah to wear the burkini, the abaya, the hijab, etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> According to the woman who wears it she is commanded as such.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's her interpretation. There are Muslin women all over the world who do not cover. The Koran does not say to cover head to toe. It says to dress modestly.
Click to expand...


I agree.  No where is a burka mentioned - most of it is cultural.


----------



## StLucieBengal

Coyote said:


> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> *"‘I am commanded by Allah to be modest’*
> 
> I enjoy wearing the burkini. As a Muslim woman I am encouraged by the Qur’an not to wear the same as non-Muslims and to remain identifiably Muslim at all times. Anyone who says otherwise is either putting their love of the _dunya_ (or their culture first. As a Muslim, we believe this world is a temporary pleasure trap. It will seduce you from your _akhira_ (our rewards in the afterlife). I am also commanded by Allah to be modest (_hayaa_) and observe hijab at all times. So I am covered up from legs to neck and my lower arms are on display when there are women or family members present. I’m white British, and a revert Muslim. "
> 
> Why we wear the burkini: five women on dressing modestly at the beach
> 
> Such is the life of someone who follows their faith.
> 
> 
> 
> They are not commanded by Allah to wear the burkini, the abaya, the hijab, etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> According to the woman who wears it she is commanded as such.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's her interpretation. There are Muslin women all over the world who do not cover. The Koran does not say to cover head to toe. It says to dress modestly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree.  No where is a burka mentioned - most of it is cultural.
Click to expand...



You can agree that the burka is a foul and oppressive garmet though right?


----------



## Coyote

Esmeralda said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Precisely because we ARE NOT those countries we can allow women to choose to wear what they want.  We don't impose irrational standards on them.  Why do people seem to think we should be like those countries?
> 
> 
> 
> Who says it's irrational? It's a matter of perspective, and culture is alI about perspective.  Is preserving and protecting one's culture irrational?  Is allowing  a dominant minority of immigrants to refuse to adapt to the culture rational?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How many free, pluralistic and democratic countries such as France or the US mandate standards of clothing other than minimal required coverage?
> 
> How is choosing a more modest swimsuit style for ONESELF - refusing to adapt to a culture that has, up to now, imposed no standard on beachwear other than minimal coverage?
> 
> If the dominant culture prefered wearing thongs and you were highly uncomfortable wearing them - should you be forced to?  Maybe in Saudi Arabia where there are no individual rights (subsitute Burka) - but in a country like the US?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is not about clothing.  As I have said, thie issue is not strictly the burkini per se. This is aobut a refusal to adapt to the culture.  I have spent a lot of time in France and a have been noting the impact of the large population of Muslims there.  They are mostly poor, uneducated, religious people who come to France for economic reasons.  They don't embrace the culture nor do they adapt to it.  They scorn French customs and perspectives. They take advantage of the freedoms (such as wearing whatever you want) and better economic conditions but do not embrace or love the country itself. That is the statement the burkini makes.  The French are offended by this and quite rightly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then perhaps the thing to do is not to ban an article of clothing that allows these women to enjoy the beach - banning it will do nothing to encourage integration into French society and will more likely have the opposite effect, creating increased isolation and division because they won't go out.
> 
> I'll give you a parallel.  In Minnesota (I think) is a significant community of Somali immigrants - refugees resettled there.  Their community is in an area with many lakes and bodies of water, and drowning deaths are not uncommon.  Most people know how to swim, and there are many town programs sponsoring swimming lessons.  The problem is that the Somali women and girls don't know how to swim, and there had been a number of drowning deaths.  Because their religion forbids them from uncovering themselves around strange men, they were not able to take part in any of these programs.  The local police department together the YMCA put together an ingenious program.  They set up an hour  one night a week for women/girls only swimming - no men.  It was open to all women and girls, in any style of swimwear, not just the Somali's.  They learned how to swim, but more than that - they met new people, and made friends in the community.  These people had been through a lot of trauma  The girls were becoming more confident, and making new friends in school.  It was a win-win for the town, for the Somali refugees and for successful integration into the community.
> 
> It wasn't all lightness and honey though - there were those who protested, who claimed it was giving in to "creeping Sharia" etc.  They could have just said - screw those girls and women, if they don't want to accept our culture and swim with men and wear western style swimwear - then they can stay at home. What would that have accomplished?  Better integration?  Or more isolation?
> 
> It seems in France, a burkini is a means of allowing women who might otherwise not go out and mingle on a holiday beach or in the water just like any French person, a chance to do so and the more they mingle, the more they are going to learn about each other.  If France has an integration problem - banning the burkini is not going to solve it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Saving lives became a serious problem, so the local community was forced to adapt to the immigrants. *But my position is that immigrants should adapt to their new country; the country they choose to  live in should not have to adapt to them.*  When in Rome...adapt, accept, embrace your new country.
Click to expand...


I don't disagree with that, other than I think it needs to be a 2-way street.  There is nothing wrong with reasonable accommodations to incourage integration.  For example, banning burka's and face veils, in a culture where being able to see one's face is very important (for security reasons as well) would be reasonable, particularly since there is no religious justification for a burka.  But banning burkini's seems unreasonable to me - you can see her face, it's no different than modest swimwear other religious groups choose and it's a means to allow these women to get out and socialize.  Forcing a more revealing style of dress on a woman against her will, without a reasonable justification is wrong imo.

I know France's immigrant population is different than ours and is comprised of mostly poor rural people from former colonies, where you might have entire villages uproot themselves and move to one community in France, even bringing their own Imams (another problem).  Unemployment is extremely high among immigrant youth, which adds to problems.


----------



## Coyote

StLucieBengal said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> *"‘I am commanded by Allah to be modest’*
> 
> I enjoy wearing the burkini. As a Muslim woman I am encouraged by the Qur’an not to wear the same as non-Muslims and to remain identifiably Muslim at all times. Anyone who says otherwise is either putting their love of the _dunya_ (or their culture first. As a Muslim, we believe this world is a temporary pleasure trap. It will seduce you from your _akhira_ (our rewards in the afterlife). I am also commanded by Allah to be modest (_hayaa_) and observe hijab at all times. So I am covered up from legs to neck and my lower arms are on display when there are women or family members present. I’m white British, and a revert Muslim. "
> 
> Why we wear the burkini: five women on dressing modestly at the beach
> 
> Such is the life of someone who follows their faith.
> 
> 
> 
> They are not commanded by Allah to wear the burkini, the abaya, the hijab, etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> According to the woman who wears it she is commanded as such.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's her interpretation. There are Muslin women all over the world who do not cover. The Koran does not say to cover head to toe. It says to dress modestly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree.  No where is a burka mentioned - most of it is cultural.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You can agree that the burka is a foul and oppressive garmet though right?
Click to expand...


Yup - if it's forced on her.  However- if a woman freely chooses it without coercion, then it's her choice - even though it seems crazy to me that any woman would choose it.  I value choice and I won't take that choice from her.  But in this country - covering that much leads to security concerns, it's impossible to do most jobs, our culture requires an ability to see peole's faces, and there are even safety concerns being out in public and not being able to see clearly.  There are a lot of reasons not to allow burkas that make sense.


----------



## Coyote

flacaltenn said:


> Don't know guys. The RIGHT burkini looks good to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When you grew up with women in wetsuits out sharing the waves ---- THAT ^^^^ bothers me less than some of *the horrors I can't UNSEE *from my beach days.



I'm not going to ask I'm not going to ask I'm not going to ask even if it involves thongs on broadsides I'm not going to ask


----------



## Mindful




----------



## Coyote

flacaltenn said:


> Tilly said:
> 
> 
> 
> A French woman's perspective:
> 
> 
> *Why should France accept the burkini? Its time to debate integration head-on*
> 
> MURIEL DEMARCUS
> 30 AUGUST 2016 • 1:36PM
> 
> The burkini ban in my home country (I am a French woman living in London) has made headlines for most of August.  Despite the fact that it has eventually been overturned by the highest French court, the debate is far from over. Journalists have had a field day mocking what they see as an attack against personal freedoms, and keep mentioning that the rightwing in France still supports the ban. What a simplistic view of the situation!
> 
> According to various polls, two thirds of the French population supported the ban, and this included the socialist French Prime Minister, Manuel Valls, who famously said that that the full-body swimsuit symbolised the enslavement of women. So what is this really about? I got tired of reading analysis that, in my view, only gave a partial side of the issue, so here is my (very French) take on it.
> 
> First of all, France is a secular country. Obviously, France is not the only Western country to insist on the separation of church and state – but I believe that it does so more militantly than any other. To an extent, you could say that secularism is the closest thing we French have to a state religion. It underpinned the French Revolution and has been a foundation of the country's progressive thought for centuries. The law of separation meant strict official neutrality in religious affairs. The Republic has always recognised individuals, rather than groups: this means that you are supposed to be French first, then Muslim, or Catholic, or whatever your religion or ethnic minority might be. You therefore need to comply with the law even if it goes against your religious beliefs, because secularism prevails in all circumstances.  Although it can be carried to extremes that other countries don’t understand, this view of citizenship is fundamentally non-discriminatory and inclusive. It’s all about finding a common ground, whatever your religion. Burkini bans must be viewed in this context, and are nothing new.
> 
> Rightly or wrongly, French citizens are scared of the Islamisation of their society. Obviously the latest attacks in Nice have further polarised an already divided population. The population is still traumatised, and believes that things have become worse over the last decade or so: people see more veiled women on the street, and are shocked to see a few niqabs or burkas from time to time, despite a full ban. This is compounded by the fact that young women are more and more targeted by some members of the Muslim community on the issue of modesty. For instance, last year in Reims a young woman sunbathing in a public park was set upon by a gang of teenage girls. They objected to her bikini, and the town’s authorities were fast to insist there was no religious aspect to the attack. Nobody believed them.
> 
> I belong to a generation that never saw a burkini or a full-body swimsuit at the beach before this summer’s events. This is clearly a new occurrence. The French also are shocked to learn that France is now home to thousands of Islamic radicals. Citizens feel that enough ground has been ceded to minorities in general, and to the Muslim minorities in particular. They think that things have now come to a head, and learned the hard way that political correctness doesn’t work. Furthermore, the French don’t understand why their women should cover up when they visit some Muslim country, but let women wear a veil or a burkini when they visit France. In short, they don’t understand why they should compromise when other countries don’t. It’s all about "my country, my rules".
> 
> Then again, I keep reading that the burkini is empowering for Muslim women who wouldn’t be able to go to the beach otherwise. I am struggling with such a point. Just look at the 1950s and 1960s photos of women in modern, comfortable clothes in Afghanistan or Egypt. They clearly were not forced to succumb to the new wave of stricter Islamic dress code. What changed? Why should women suddenly cover up? Islam seems to have been hijacked, and women are, once again, the first hostages. Why should women sympathise with the hijackers? Isn’t this a classic case of Stockholm syndrome?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Egyptian leader Gamal Abdul Nasser with his family in the 1960s CREDIT: AFP/GETTY
> And what’s next? Should we also allow FGM to be respectful of different cultural practices? What about polygamy? In short, Western societies need to define what’s acceptable for them, and what’s not. There is a need to draw a line, and maybe the French have drawn it at the burkini. Is it futile? Maybe. But at least a social debate is starting. It’s a debate that societies simply can’t avoid forever.  Whether we like it or not, society must have a clear set of "inclusiveness principles", and it’s probably better to face the issue rather than ignore it.
> 
> Don’t get me wrong, if covering up was simply a matter of personal style I would be all for it. But let’s be honest: it’s fairly easy to see whether women cover up for religious reasons or not (for starters women would get a hat, not a veil). What makes me angry is when I am out in blistering heat, and I see a family at the beach with kids in bathing suits, the dad in swimming trunks, and the mum covered in black from head to toe. It’s modest and it’s for religious reasons, but those reasons clearly seem oppressive and unfair. I can’t understand why a husband would want his wife to wear this. And don’t even try to swim in such an attire.
> 
> In the end, the burkini and some other Islamic dresses are less innocuous than they seem. It has to do with an explicit inequality between genders, which is unacceptable under French law. Let’s face it: we already have far too many of such inequalities…So why should the French accept this one? And let’s not forget that Syrian women burnt burqas in celebration after being freed from Isil. In the meantime, in France, more Muslim women are peer-pressured to wear the veil or the burkini. This seems rather counter-intuitive.
> 
> In conclusion, it’s time to go back, understand and reinforce the principles that underpin our democracies. Integration is a two-way street. Was the ban the best way to deal with the issue? Probably not. But I sincerely hope that it will start a much-needed social debate, in France and anywhere else.
> 
> Why should France accept the burkini? Its time to debate integration head-on
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, I think it's shaky ground to allow "one pieces" or "modesty skirts". If I go to a French beach --- I want the entire French "experience" dammit !!!!
> 
> It's gonna be a generational thing.
> 
> *It maybe that the next generation ends all of that. THey will marry more open-minded husbands, want to integrate into the workforce and STILL be a practicing Muslim. Besides tolerance -- there's patience. It's a HUGE cultural adjustment. FORCING adjustment does not seem productive. Just like FORCING tolerance out of the picture by replacing it with law may not be productive.*
Click to expand...


That's exactly how I feel about it and typically, the first generation is most traditional and old-country, with succeeding generations being more integrated.



> *The focus should be on NOT housing recent immigrants in LARGE closed govt housing where adaptation is NEVER likely to happen. *And insisting on making French law dominant over religious law.. There's the priorities really. Focus on those.



EXACTLY.  Creating, essentially culturally closed ghettos, plus - they have high umemployment rates among young adults, and there is a certain amount of discrimmination by the French as well, restricting them to the lower paying jobs.  All that adds fuel to the situation.


----------



## StLucieBengal

Coyote said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> They are not commanded by Allah to wear the burkini, the abaya, the hijab, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> According to the woman who wears it she is commanded as such.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's her interpretation. There are Muslin women all over the world who do not cover. The Koran does not say to cover head to toe. It says to dress modestly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree.  No where is a burka mentioned - most of it is cultural.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You can agree that the burka is a foul and oppressive garmet though right?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yup - if it's forced on her.  However- if a woman freely chooses it without coercion, then it's her choice - even though it seems crazy to me that any woman would choose it.  I value choice and I won't take that choice from her.  But in this country - covering that much leads to security concerns, it's impossible to do most jobs, our culture requires an ability to see peole's faces, and there are even safety concerns being out in public and not being able to see clearly.  There are a lot of reasons not to allow burkas that make sense.
Click to expand...


No woman chooses to wear a burka.   The only way any woman goes along with wearing one is if they are scared or have been brain washed.   

A Burkini is just an extension of that .... It's men trying to keep a tight grip on women.    

If they are in the west and want to rock one of those Jewish swim suits you posted then so be it.... They can also get a sun hat and properly fit in with the west.  No one wants to see these women in a string bikini.   

Wearing a burka or Burkini just keeps them seperate from society and if they are trying for that then there is no point on them being here.     

This is yet another example of why I think Islam needs a reformation to adjust to the west.   And until they do then they shouldn't come here unless they are willing to take steps to join us. If they are willing to take those steps then they should be welcomed as long as they are taking the legal immigration route.


----------



## StLucieBengal

Coyote said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tilly said:
> 
> 
> 
> A French woman's perspective:
> 
> 
> *Why should France accept the burkini? Its time to debate integration head-on*
> 
> MURIEL DEMARCUS
> 30 AUGUST 2016 • 1:36PM
> 
> The burkini ban in my home country (I am a French woman living in London) has made headlines for most of August.  Despite the fact that it has eventually been overturned by the highest French court, the debate is far from over. Journalists have had a field day mocking what they see as an attack against personal freedoms, and keep mentioning that the rightwing in France still supports the ban. What a simplistic view of the situation!
> 
> According to various polls, two thirds of the French population supported the ban, and this included the socialist French Prime Minister, Manuel Valls, who famously said that that the full-body swimsuit symbolised the enslavement of women. So what is this really about? I got tired of reading analysis that, in my view, only gave a partial side of the issue, so here is my (very French) take on it.
> 
> First of all, France is a secular country. Obviously, France is not the only Western country to insist on the separation of church and state – but I believe that it does so more militantly than any other. To an extent, you could say that secularism is the closest thing we French have to a state religion. It underpinned the French Revolution and has been a foundation of the country's progressive thought for centuries. The law of separation meant strict official neutrality in religious affairs. The Republic has always recognised individuals, rather than groups: this means that you are supposed to be French first, then Muslim, or Catholic, or whatever your religion or ethnic minority might be. You therefore need to comply with the law even if it goes against your religious beliefs, because secularism prevails in all circumstances.  Although it can be carried to extremes that other countries don’t understand, this view of citizenship is fundamentally non-discriminatory and inclusive. It’s all about finding a common ground, whatever your religion. Burkini bans must be viewed in this context, and are nothing new.
> 
> Rightly or wrongly, French citizens are scared of the Islamisation of their society. Obviously the latest attacks in Nice have further polarised an already divided population. The population is still traumatised, and believes that things have become worse over the last decade or so: people see more veiled women on the street, and are shocked to see a few niqabs or burkas from time to time, despite a full ban. This is compounded by the fact that young women are more and more targeted by some members of the Muslim community on the issue of modesty. For instance, last year in Reims a young woman sunbathing in a public park was set upon by a gang of teenage girls. They objected to her bikini, and the town’s authorities were fast to insist there was no religious aspect to the attack. Nobody believed them.
> 
> I belong to a generation that never saw a burkini or a full-body swimsuit at the beach before this summer’s events. This is clearly a new occurrence. The French also are shocked to learn that France is now home to thousands of Islamic radicals. Citizens feel that enough ground has been ceded to minorities in general, and to the Muslim minorities in particular. They think that things have now come to a head, and learned the hard way that political correctness doesn’t work. Furthermore, the French don’t understand why their women should cover up when they visit some Muslim country, but let women wear a veil or a burkini when they visit France. In short, they don’t understand why they should compromise when other countries don’t. It’s all about "my country, my rules".
> 
> Then again, I keep reading that the burkini is empowering for Muslim women who wouldn’t be able to go to the beach otherwise. I am struggling with such a point. Just look at the 1950s and 1960s photos of women in modern, comfortable clothes in Afghanistan or Egypt. They clearly were not forced to succumb to the new wave of stricter Islamic dress code. What changed? Why should women suddenly cover up? Islam seems to have been hijacked, and women are, once again, the first hostages. Why should women sympathise with the hijackers? Isn’t this a classic case of Stockholm syndrome?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Egyptian leader Gamal Abdul Nasser with his family in the 1960s CREDIT: AFP/GETTY
> And what’s next? Should we also allow FGM to be respectful of different cultural practices? What about polygamy? In short, Western societies need to define what’s acceptable for them, and what’s not. There is a need to draw a line, and maybe the French have drawn it at the burkini. Is it futile? Maybe. But at least a social debate is starting. It’s a debate that societies simply can’t avoid forever.  Whether we like it or not, society must have a clear set of "inclusiveness principles", and it’s probably better to face the issue rather than ignore it.
> 
> Don’t get me wrong, if covering up was simply a matter of personal style I would be all for it. But let’s be honest: it’s fairly easy to see whether women cover up for religious reasons or not (for starters women would get a hat, not a veil). What makes me angry is when I am out in blistering heat, and I see a family at the beach with kids in bathing suits, the dad in swimming trunks, and the mum covered in black from head to toe. It’s modest and it’s for religious reasons, but those reasons clearly seem oppressive and unfair. I can’t understand why a husband would want his wife to wear this. And don’t even try to swim in such an attire.
> 
> In the end, the burkini and some other Islamic dresses are less innocuous than they seem. It has to do with an explicit inequality between genders, which is unacceptable under French law. Let’s face it: we already have far too many of such inequalities…So why should the French accept this one? And let’s not forget that Syrian women burnt burqas in celebration after being freed from Isil. In the meantime, in France, more Muslim women are peer-pressured to wear the veil or the burkini. This seems rather counter-intuitive.
> 
> In conclusion, it’s time to go back, understand and reinforce the principles that underpin our democracies. Integration is a two-way street. Was the ban the best way to deal with the issue? Probably not. But I sincerely hope that it will start a much-needed social debate, in France and anywhere else.
> 
> Why should France accept the burkini? Its time to debate integration head-on
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, I think it's shaky ground to allow "one pieces" or "modesty skirts". If I go to a French beach --- I want the entire French "experience" dammit !!!!
> 
> It's gonna be a generational thing.
> 
> *It maybe that the next generation ends all of that. THey will marry more open-minded husbands, want to integrate into the workforce and STILL be a practicing Muslim. Besides tolerance -- there's patience. It's a HUGE cultural adjustment. FORCING adjustment does not seem productive. Just like FORCING tolerance out of the picture by replacing it with law may not be productive.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's exactly how I feel about it and typically, the first generation is most traditional and old-country, with succeeding generations being more integrated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The focus should be on NOT housing recent immigrants in LARGE closed govt housing where adaptation is NEVER likely to happen. *And insisting on making French law dominant over religious law.. There's the priorities really. Focus on those.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> EXACTLY.  Creating, essentially culturally closed ghettos, plus - they have high umemployment rates among young adults, and there is a certain amount of discrimmination by the French as well, restricting them to the lower paying jobs.  All that adds fuel to the situation.
Click to expand...



Doesn't the numbers bear out that the second generation is most likely to be radicalized?    

I swear I saw that when they discussed the Orlando shooter.    His mosque pretty close to me:


----------



## Coyote

StLucieBengal said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> According to the woman who wears it she is commanded as such.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's her interpretation. There are Muslin women all over the world who do not cover. The Koran does not say to cover head to toe. It says to dress modestly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree.  No where is a burka mentioned - most of it is cultural.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You can agree that the burka is a foul and oppressive garmet though right?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yup - if it's forced on her.  However- if a woman freely chooses it without coercion, then it's her choice - even though it seems crazy to me that any woman would choose it.  I value choice and I won't take that choice from her.  But in this country - covering that much leads to security concerns, it's impossible to do most jobs, our culture requires an ability to see peole's faces, and there are even safety concerns being out in public and not being able to see clearly.  There are a lot of reasons not to allow burkas that make sense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No woman chooses to wear a burka.   The only way any woman goes along with wearing one is if they are scared or have been brain washed.
Click to expand...


I think it's possible some could freely choose - as an extreme example of "piety", the way she was brought up etc.  The thing is - we have  no right to remove that choice from her without good reason.



> A Burkini is just an extension of that .... It's men trying to keep a tight grip on women.
> 
> If they are in the west and want to rock one of those Jewish swim suits you posted then so be it.... They can also get a sun hat and properly fit in with the west.  No one wants to see these women in a string bikini.



The modest swimwear that the Orthodox Jewish women wear is not much difference - you see a little more of the lower calf and ankles, a little more of the forearms, if she is unmarried you see her hair and face, and if she is married, her hair is covered.  It is not even remotely close to what you consider standard French beachwear so thrying to claim it's acceptable as such while the burkini, which it more closely resembles is not seems a stretch imo.  A burkini is no more an extension of men trying to keep a tight grip on women then the outfit the Jewish women were wearing - in both cases you're talking about women who observe traditional religions and who likely feel their choices in modesty reflect their feelings towards God (at least that is how I've heard it phrased).



> *Wearing a burka or Burkini just keeps them seperate from society and if they are trying for that then there is no point on them being here.     *
> 
> This is yet another example of why I think Islam needs a reformation to adjust to the west.   And until they do then they shouldn't come here unless they are willing to take steps to join us. If they are willing to take those steps then they should be welcomed as long as they are taking the legal immigration route.



If that is what you feel then you're going to have issues with Orthodox Jewish women, and a good many Christian sects as well who don't hold with baring a lot of skin or form fitting clothing.


----------



## Coyote

StLucieBengal said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tilly said:
> 
> 
> 
> A French woman's perspective:
> 
> 
> *Why should France accept the burkini? Its time to debate integration head-on*
> 
> MURIEL DEMARCUS
> 30 AUGUST 2016 • 1:36PM
> 
> The burkini ban in my home country (I am a French woman living in London) has made headlines for most of August.  Despite the fact that it has eventually been overturned by the highest French court, the debate is far from over. Journalists have had a field day mocking what they see as an attack against personal freedoms, and keep mentioning that the rightwing in France still supports the ban. What a simplistic view of the situation!
> 
> According to various polls, two thirds of the French population supported the ban, and this included the socialist French Prime Minister, Manuel Valls, who famously said that that the full-body swimsuit symbolised the enslavement of women. So what is this really about? I got tired of reading analysis that, in my view, only gave a partial side of the issue, so here is my (very French) take on it.
> 
> First of all, France is a secular country. Obviously, France is not the only Western country to insist on the separation of church and state – but I believe that it does so more militantly than any other. To an extent, you could say that secularism is the closest thing we French have to a state religion. It underpinned the French Revolution and has been a foundation of the country's progressive thought for centuries. The law of separation meant strict official neutrality in religious affairs. The Republic has always recognised individuals, rather than groups: this means that you are supposed to be French first, then Muslim, or Catholic, or whatever your religion or ethnic minority might be. You therefore need to comply with the law even if it goes against your religious beliefs, because secularism prevails in all circumstances.  Although it can be carried to extremes that other countries don’t understand, this view of citizenship is fundamentally non-discriminatory and inclusive. It’s all about finding a common ground, whatever your religion. Burkini bans must be viewed in this context, and are nothing new.
> 
> Rightly or wrongly, French citizens are scared of the Islamisation of their society. Obviously the latest attacks in Nice have further polarised an already divided population. The population is still traumatised, and believes that things have become worse over the last decade or so: people see more veiled women on the street, and are shocked to see a few niqabs or burkas from time to time, despite a full ban. This is compounded by the fact that young women are more and more targeted by some members of the Muslim community on the issue of modesty. For instance, last year in Reims a young woman sunbathing in a public park was set upon by a gang of teenage girls. They objected to her bikini, and the town’s authorities were fast to insist there was no religious aspect to the attack. Nobody believed them.
> 
> I belong to a generation that never saw a burkini or a full-body swimsuit at the beach before this summer’s events. This is clearly a new occurrence. The French also are shocked to learn that France is now home to thousands of Islamic radicals. Citizens feel that enough ground has been ceded to minorities in general, and to the Muslim minorities in particular. They think that things have now come to a head, and learned the hard way that political correctness doesn’t work. Furthermore, the French don’t understand why their women should cover up when they visit some Muslim country, but let women wear a veil or a burkini when they visit France. In short, they don’t understand why they should compromise when other countries don’t. It’s all about "my country, my rules".
> 
> Then again, I keep reading that the burkini is empowering for Muslim women who wouldn’t be able to go to the beach otherwise. I am struggling with such a point. Just look at the 1950s and 1960s photos of women in modern, comfortable clothes in Afghanistan or Egypt. They clearly were not forced to succumb to the new wave of stricter Islamic dress code. What changed? Why should women suddenly cover up? Islam seems to have been hijacked, and women are, once again, the first hostages. Why should women sympathise with the hijackers? Isn’t this a classic case of Stockholm syndrome?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Egyptian leader Gamal Abdul Nasser with his family in the 1960s CREDIT: AFP/GETTY
> And what’s next? Should we also allow FGM to be respectful of different cultural practices? What about polygamy? In short, Western societies need to define what’s acceptable for them, and what’s not. There is a need to draw a line, and maybe the French have drawn it at the burkini. Is it futile? Maybe. But at least a social debate is starting. It’s a debate that societies simply can’t avoid forever.  Whether we like it or not, society must have a clear set of "inclusiveness principles", and it’s probably better to face the issue rather than ignore it.
> 
> Don’t get me wrong, if covering up was simply a matter of personal style I would be all for it. But let’s be honest: it’s fairly easy to see whether women cover up for religious reasons or not (for starters women would get a hat, not a veil). What makes me angry is when I am out in blistering heat, and I see a family at the beach with kids in bathing suits, the dad in swimming trunks, and the mum covered in black from head to toe. It’s modest and it’s for religious reasons, but those reasons clearly seem oppressive and unfair. I can’t understand why a husband would want his wife to wear this. And don’t even try to swim in such an attire.
> 
> In the end, the burkini and some other Islamic dresses are less innocuous than they seem. It has to do with an explicit inequality between genders, which is unacceptable under French law. Let’s face it: we already have far too many of such inequalities…So why should the French accept this one? And let’s not forget that Syrian women burnt burqas in celebration after being freed from Isil. In the meantime, in France, more Muslim women are peer-pressured to wear the veil or the burkini. This seems rather counter-intuitive.
> 
> In conclusion, it’s time to go back, understand and reinforce the principles that underpin our democracies. Integration is a two-way street. Was the ban the best way to deal with the issue? Probably not. But I sincerely hope that it will start a much-needed social debate, in France and anywhere else.
> 
> Why should France accept the burkini? Its time to debate integration head-on
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, I think it's shaky ground to allow "one pieces" or "modesty skirts". If I go to a French beach --- I want the entire French "experience" dammit !!!!
> 
> It's gonna be a generational thing.
> 
> *It maybe that the next generation ends all of that. THey will marry more open-minded husbands, want to integrate into the workforce and STILL be a practicing Muslim. Besides tolerance -- there's patience. It's a HUGE cultural adjustment. FORCING adjustment does not seem productive. Just like FORCING tolerance out of the picture by replacing it with law may not be productive.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's exactly how I feel about it and typically, the first generation is most traditional and old-country, with succeeding generations being more integrated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The focus should be on NOT housing recent immigrants in LARGE closed govt housing where adaptation is NEVER likely to happen. *And insisting on making French law dominant over religious law.. There's the priorities really. Focus on those.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> EXACTLY.  Creating, essentially culturally closed ghettos, plus - they have high umemployment rates among young adults, and there is a certain amount of discrimmination by the French as well, restricting them to the lower paying jobs.  All that adds fuel to the situation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> *Doesn't the numbers bear out that the second generation is most likely to be radicalized?  *
> 
> I swear I saw that when they discussed the Orlando shooter.    His mosque pretty close to me:
Click to expand...


Being radicalized is a different scenario I think, then immigrant integration.  Not sure though so I'd like to see some actual statistics.  

My understanding is first generation is most likely to retain traditional values and habits that succeeding generations rebel against but they are also the ones who chose to immigrate to a new country and adopt it as their own.  In many cases they've likely fled bad situations.  It may be in some cases the second generation or those who immigrated as young children, are caught in the not quite belonging in either camp situation, and that leaves them more vulnerable to radicalization?  

In the US second generation and forward are usually well integrated - but it could be France's dynamic is different.  France also lags far behind US and Canada in integration of immigrants.


----------



## StLucieBengal

Coyote said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tilly said:
> 
> 
> 
> A French woman's perspective:
> 
> 
> *Why should France accept the burkini? Its time to debate integration head-on*
> 
> MURIEL DEMARCUS
> 30 AUGUST 2016 • 1:36PM
> 
> The burkini ban in my home country (I am a French woman living in London) has made headlines for most of August.  Despite the fact that it has eventually been overturned by the highest French court, the debate is far from over. Journalists have had a field day mocking what they see as an attack against personal freedoms, and keep mentioning that the rightwing in France still supports the ban. What a simplistic view of the situation!
> 
> According to various polls, two thirds of the French population supported the ban, and this included the socialist French Prime Minister, Manuel Valls, who famously said that that the full-body swimsuit symbolised the enslavement of women. So what is this really about? I got tired of reading analysis that, in my view, only gave a partial side of the issue, so here is my (very French) take on it.
> 
> First of all, France is a secular country. Obviously, France is not the only Western country to insist on the separation of church and state – but I believe that it does so more militantly than any other. To an extent, you could say that secularism is the closest thing we French have to a state religion. It underpinned the French Revolution and has been a foundation of the country's progressive thought for centuries. The law of separation meant strict official neutrality in religious affairs. The Republic has always recognised individuals, rather than groups: this means that you are supposed to be French first, then Muslim, or Catholic, or whatever your religion or ethnic minority might be. You therefore need to comply with the law even if it goes against your religious beliefs, because secularism prevails in all circumstances.  Although it can be carried to extremes that other countries don’t understand, this view of citizenship is fundamentally non-discriminatory and inclusive. It’s all about finding a common ground, whatever your religion. Burkini bans must be viewed in this context, and are nothing new.
> 
> Rightly or wrongly, French citizens are scared of the Islamisation of their society. Obviously the latest attacks in Nice have further polarised an already divided population. The population is still traumatised, and believes that things have become worse over the last decade or so: people see more veiled women on the street, and are shocked to see a few niqabs or burkas from time to time, despite a full ban. This is compounded by the fact that young women are more and more targeted by some members of the Muslim community on the issue of modesty. For instance, last year in Reims a young woman sunbathing in a public park was set upon by a gang of teenage girls. They objected to her bikini, and the town’s authorities were fast to insist there was no religious aspect to the attack. Nobody believed them.
> 
> I belong to a generation that never saw a burkini or a full-body swimsuit at the beach before this summer’s events. This is clearly a new occurrence. The French also are shocked to learn that France is now home to thousands of Islamic radicals. Citizens feel that enough ground has been ceded to minorities in general, and to the Muslim minorities in particular. They think that things have now come to a head, and learned the hard way that political correctness doesn’t work. Furthermore, the French don’t understand why their women should cover up when they visit some Muslim country, but let women wear a veil or a burkini when they visit France. In short, they don’t understand why they should compromise when other countries don’t. It’s all about "my country, my rules".
> 
> Then again, I keep reading that the burkini is empowering for Muslim women who wouldn’t be able to go to the beach otherwise. I am struggling with such a point. Just look at the 1950s and 1960s photos of women in modern, comfortable clothes in Afghanistan or Egypt. They clearly were not forced to succumb to the new wave of stricter Islamic dress code. What changed? Why should women suddenly cover up? Islam seems to have been hijacked, and women are, once again, the first hostages. Why should women sympathise with the hijackers? Isn’t this a classic case of Stockholm syndrome?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Egyptian leader Gamal Abdul Nasser with his family in the 1960s CREDIT: AFP/GETTY
> And what’s next? Should we also allow FGM to be respectful of different cultural practices? What about polygamy? In short, Western societies need to define what’s acceptable for them, and what’s not. There is a need to draw a line, and maybe the French have drawn it at the burkini. Is it futile? Maybe. But at least a social debate is starting. It’s a debate that societies simply can’t avoid forever.  Whether we like it or not, society must have a clear set of "inclusiveness principles", and it’s probably better to face the issue rather than ignore it.
> 
> Don’t get me wrong, if covering up was simply a matter of personal style I would be all for it. But let’s be honest: it’s fairly easy to see whether women cover up for religious reasons or not (for starters women would get a hat, not a veil). What makes me angry is when I am out in blistering heat, and I see a family at the beach with kids in bathing suits, the dad in swimming trunks, and the mum covered in black from head to toe. It’s modest and it’s for religious reasons, but those reasons clearly seem oppressive and unfair. I can’t understand why a husband would want his wife to wear this. And don’t even try to swim in such an attire.
> 
> In the end, the burkini and some other Islamic dresses are less innocuous than they seem. It has to do with an explicit inequality between genders, which is unacceptable under French law. Let’s face it: we already have far too many of such inequalities…So why should the French accept this one? And let’s not forget that Syrian women burnt burqas in celebration after being freed from Isil. In the meantime, in France, more Muslim women are peer-pressured to wear the veil or the burkini. This seems rather counter-intuitive.
> 
> In conclusion, it’s time to go back, understand and reinforce the principles that underpin our democracies. Integration is a two-way street. Was the ban the best way to deal with the issue? Probably not. But I sincerely hope that it will start a much-needed social debate, in France and anywhere else.
> 
> Why should France accept the burkini? Its time to debate integration head-on
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, I think it's shaky ground to allow "one pieces" or "modesty skirts". If I go to a French beach --- I want the entire French "experience" dammit !!!!
> 
> It's gonna be a generational thing.
> 
> *It maybe that the next generation ends all of that. THey will marry more open-minded husbands, want to integrate into the workforce and STILL be a practicing Muslim. Besides tolerance -- there's patience. It's a HUGE cultural adjustment. FORCING adjustment does not seem productive. Just like FORCING tolerance out of the picture by replacing it with law may not be productive.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's exactly how I feel about it and typically, the first generation is most traditional and old-country, with succeeding generations being more integrated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The focus should be on NOT housing recent immigrants in LARGE closed govt housing where adaptation is NEVER likely to happen. *And insisting on making French law dominant over religious law.. There's the priorities really. Focus on those.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> EXACTLY.  Creating, essentially culturally closed ghettos, plus - they have high umemployment rates among young adults, and there is a certain amount of discrimmination by the French as well, restricting them to the lower paying jobs.  All that adds fuel to the situation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> *Doesn't the numbers bear out that the second generation is most likely to be radicalized?  *
> 
> I swear I saw that when they discussed the Orlando shooter.    His mosque pretty close to me:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Being radicalized is a different scenario I think, then immigrant integration.  Not sure though so I'd like to see some actual statistics.
> 
> My understanding is first generation is most likely to retain traditional values and habits that succeeding generations rebel against but they are also the ones who chose to immigrate to a new country and adopt it as their own.  In many cases they've likely fled bad situations.  It may be in some cases the second generation or those who immigrated as young children, are caught in the not quite belonging in either camp situation, and that leaves them more vulnerable to radicalization?
> 
> In the US second generation and forward are usually well integrated - but it could be France's dynamic is different.  France also lags far behind US and Canada in integration of immigrants.
Click to expand...



I will have to find the details but it was my understanding that the immigrants did what they could to fit but were a bit awkward.    Then the second generation will grow up in the new culture but will feel isolated not being part of their immigrant parents life.    The third generation is where hey finally see themselves and feel like the new culture/home.


----------



## Coyote

StLucieBengal said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tilly said:
> 
> 
> 
> A French woman's perspective:
> 
> 
> *Why should France accept the burkini? Its time to debate integration head-on*
> 
> MURIEL DEMARCUS
> 30 AUGUST 2016 • 1:36PM
> 
> The burkini ban in my home country (I am a French woman living in London) has made headlines for most of August.  Despite the fact that it has eventually been overturned by the highest French court, the debate is far from over. Journalists have had a field day mocking what they see as an attack against personal freedoms, and keep mentioning that the rightwing in France still supports the ban. What a simplistic view of the situation!
> 
> According to various polls, two thirds of the French population supported the ban, and this included the socialist French Prime Minister, Manuel Valls, who famously said that that the full-body swimsuit symbolised the enslavement of women. So what is this really about? I got tired of reading analysis that, in my view, only gave a partial side of the issue, so here is my (very French) take on it.
> 
> First of all, France is a secular country. Obviously, France is not the only Western country to insist on the separation of church and state – but I believe that it does so more militantly than any other. To an extent, you could say that secularism is the closest thing we French have to a state religion. It underpinned the French Revolution and has been a foundation of the country's progressive thought for centuries. The law of separation meant strict official neutrality in religious affairs. The Republic has always recognised individuals, rather than groups: this means that you are supposed to be French first, then Muslim, or Catholic, or whatever your religion or ethnic minority might be. You therefore need to comply with the law even if it goes against your religious beliefs, because secularism prevails in all circumstances.  Although it can be carried to extremes that other countries don’t understand, this view of citizenship is fundamentally non-discriminatory and inclusive. It’s all about finding a common ground, whatever your religion. Burkini bans must be viewed in this context, and are nothing new.
> 
> Rightly or wrongly, French citizens are scared of the Islamisation of their society. Obviously the latest attacks in Nice have further polarised an already divided population. The population is still traumatised, and believes that things have become worse over the last decade or so: people see more veiled women on the street, and are shocked to see a few niqabs or burkas from time to time, despite a full ban. This is compounded by the fact that young women are more and more targeted by some members of the Muslim community on the issue of modesty. For instance, last year in Reims a young woman sunbathing in a public park was set upon by a gang of teenage girls. They objected to her bikini, and the town’s authorities were fast to insist there was no religious aspect to the attack. Nobody believed them.
> 
> I belong to a generation that never saw a burkini or a full-body swimsuit at the beach before this summer’s events. This is clearly a new occurrence. The French also are shocked to learn that France is now home to thousands of Islamic radicals. Citizens feel that enough ground has been ceded to minorities in general, and to the Muslim minorities in particular. They think that things have now come to a head, and learned the hard way that political correctness doesn’t work. Furthermore, the French don’t understand why their women should cover up when they visit some Muslim country, but let women wear a veil or a burkini when they visit France. In short, they don’t understand why they should compromise when other countries don’t. It’s all about "my country, my rules".
> 
> Then again, I keep reading that the burkini is empowering for Muslim women who wouldn’t be able to go to the beach otherwise. I am struggling with such a point. Just look at the 1950s and 1960s photos of women in modern, comfortable clothes in Afghanistan or Egypt. They clearly were not forced to succumb to the new wave of stricter Islamic dress code. What changed? Why should women suddenly cover up? Islam seems to have been hijacked, and women are, once again, the first hostages. Why should women sympathise with the hijackers? Isn’t this a classic case of Stockholm syndrome?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Egyptian leader Gamal Abdul Nasser with his family in the 1960s CREDIT: AFP/GETTY
> And what’s next? Should we also allow FGM to be respectful of different cultural practices? What about polygamy? In short, Western societies need to define what’s acceptable for them, and what’s not. There is a need to draw a line, and maybe the French have drawn it at the burkini. Is it futile? Maybe. But at least a social debate is starting. It’s a debate that societies simply can’t avoid forever.  Whether we like it or not, society must have a clear set of "inclusiveness principles", and it’s probably better to face the issue rather than ignore it.
> 
> Don’t get me wrong, if covering up was simply a matter of personal style I would be all for it. But let’s be honest: it’s fairly easy to see whether women cover up for religious reasons or not (for starters women would get a hat, not a veil). What makes me angry is when I am out in blistering heat, and I see a family at the beach with kids in bathing suits, the dad in swimming trunks, and the mum covered in black from head to toe. It’s modest and it’s for religious reasons, but those reasons clearly seem oppressive and unfair. I can’t understand why a husband would want his wife to wear this. And don’t even try to swim in such an attire.
> 
> In the end, the burkini and some other Islamic dresses are less innocuous than they seem. It has to do with an explicit inequality between genders, which is unacceptable under French law. Let’s face it: we already have far too many of such inequalities…So why should the French accept this one? And let’s not forget that Syrian women burnt burqas in celebration after being freed from Isil. In the meantime, in France, more Muslim women are peer-pressured to wear the veil or the burkini. This seems rather counter-intuitive.
> 
> In conclusion, it’s time to go back, understand and reinforce the principles that underpin our democracies. Integration is a two-way street. Was the ban the best way to deal with the issue? Probably not. But I sincerely hope that it will start a much-needed social debate, in France and anywhere else.
> 
> Why should France accept the burkini? Its time to debate integration head-on
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, I think it's shaky ground to allow "one pieces" or "modesty skirts". If I go to a French beach --- I want the entire French "experience" dammit !!!!
> 
> It's gonna be a generational thing.
> 
> *It maybe that the next generation ends all of that. THey will marry more open-minded husbands, want to integrate into the workforce and STILL be a practicing Muslim. Besides tolerance -- there's patience. It's a HUGE cultural adjustment. FORCING adjustment does not seem productive. Just like FORCING tolerance out of the picture by replacing it with law may not be productive.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's exactly how I feel about it and typically, the first generation is most traditional and old-country, with succeeding generations being more integrated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The focus should be on NOT housing recent immigrants in LARGE closed govt housing where adaptation is NEVER likely to happen. *And insisting on making French law dominant over religious law.. There's the priorities really. Focus on those.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> EXACTLY.  Creating, essentially culturally closed ghettos, plus - they have high umemployment rates among young adults, and there is a certain amount of discrimmination by the French as well, restricting them to the lower paying jobs.  All that adds fuel to the situation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> *Doesn't the numbers bear out that the second generation is most likely to be radicalized?  *
> 
> I swear I saw that when they discussed the Orlando shooter.    His mosque pretty close to me:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Being radicalized is a different scenario I think, then immigrant integration.  Not sure though so I'd like to see some actual statistics.
> 
> My understanding is first generation is most likely to retain traditional values and habits that succeeding generations rebel against but they are also the ones who chose to immigrate to a new country and adopt it as their own.  In many cases they've likely fled bad situations.  It may be in some cases the second generation or those who immigrated as young children, are caught in the not quite belonging in either camp situation, and that leaves them more vulnerable to radicalization?
> 
> In the US second generation and forward are usually well integrated - but it could be France's dynamic is different.  France also lags far behind US and Canada in integration of immigrants.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I will have to find the details but it was my understanding that the immigrants did what they could to fit but were a bit awkward.    Then the second generation will grow up in the new culture but will feel isolated not being part of their immigrant parents life.    The third generation is where hey finally see themselves and feel like the new culture/home.
Click to expand...



That could be - I'd be interested in seeing what you find.


----------



## StLucieBengal

Coyote said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's her interpretation. There are Muslin women all over the world who do not cover. The Koran does not say to cover head to toe. It says to dress modestly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree.  No where is a burka mentioned - most of it is cultural.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You can agree that the burka is a foul and oppressive garmet though right?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yup - if it's forced on her.  However- if a woman freely chooses it without coercion, then it's her choice - even though it seems crazy to me that any woman would choose it.  I value choice and I won't take that choice from her.  But in this country - covering that much leads to security concerns, it's impossible to do most jobs, our culture requires an ability to see peole's faces, and there are even safety concerns being out in public and not being able to see clearly.  There are a lot of reasons not to allow burkas that make sense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No woman chooses to wear a burka.   The only way any woman goes along with wearing one is if they are scared or have been brain washed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think it's possible some could freely choose - as an extreme example of "piety", the way she was brought up etc.  The thing is - we have  no right to remove that choice from her without good reason.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Burkini is just an extension of that .... It's men trying to keep a tight grip on women.
> 
> If they are in the west and want to rock one of those Jewish swim suits you posted then so be it.... They can also get a sun hat and properly fit in with the west.  No one wants to see these women in a string bikini.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The modest swimwear that the Orthodox Jewish women wear is not much difference - you see a little more of the lower calf and ankles, a little more of the forearms, if she is unmarried you see her hair and face, and if she is married, her hair is covered.  It is not even remotely close to what you consider standard French beachwear so thrying to claim it's acceptable as such while the burkini, which it more closely resembles is not seems a stretch imo.  A burkini is no more an extension of men trying to keep a tight grip on women then the outfit the Jewish women were wearing - in both cases you're talking about women who observe traditional religions and who likely feel their choices in modesty reflect their feelings towards God (at least that is how I've heard it phrased).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Wearing a burka or Burkini just keeps them seperate from society and if they are trying for that then there is no point on them being here.     *
> 
> This is yet another example of why I think Islam needs a reformation to adjust to the west.   And until they do then they shouldn't come here unless they are willing to take steps to join us. If they are willing to take those steps then they should be welcomed as long as they are taking the legal immigration route.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If that is what you feel then you're going to have issues with Orthodox Jewish women, and a good many Christian sects as well who don't hold with baring a lot of skin or form fitting clothing.
Click to expand...


I should be able to see everyone's face and hair.     The Jews wear a wig to cover their head and if Muslims wanna do that then ok.    

The Amish women have it better than the Muslim women when it comes to clothing.


----------



## Coyote

StLucieBengal said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree.  No where is a burka mentioned - most of it is cultural.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can agree that the burka is a foul and oppressive garmet though right?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yup - if it's forced on her.  However- if a woman freely chooses it without coercion, then it's her choice - even though it seems crazy to me that any woman would choose it.  I value choice and I won't take that choice from her.  But in this country - covering that much leads to security concerns, it's impossible to do most jobs, our culture requires an ability to see peole's faces, and there are even safety concerns being out in public and not being able to see clearly.  There are a lot of reasons not to allow burkas that make sense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No woman chooses to wear a burka.   The only way any woman goes along with wearing one is if they are scared or have been brain washed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think it's possible some could freely choose - as an extreme example of "piety", the way she was brought up etc.  The thing is - we have  no right to remove that choice from her without good reason.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Burkini is just an extension of that .... It's men trying to keep a tight grip on women.
> 
> If they are in the west and want to rock one of those Jewish swim suits you posted then so be it.... They can also get a sun hat and properly fit in with the west.  No one wants to see these women in a string bikini.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The modest swimwear that the Orthodox Jewish women wear is not much difference - you see a little more of the lower calf and ankles, a little more of the forearms, if she is unmarried you see her hair and face, and if she is married, her hair is covered.  It is not even remotely close to what you consider standard French beachwear so thrying to claim it's acceptable as such while the burkini, which it more closely resembles is not seems a stretch imo.  A burkini is no more an extension of men trying to keep a tight grip on women then the outfit the Jewish women were wearing - in both cases you're talking about women who observe traditional religions and who likely feel their choices in modesty reflect their feelings towards God (at least that is how I've heard it phrased).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Wearing a burka or Burkini just keeps them seperate from society and if they are trying for that then there is no point on them being here.     *
> 
> This is yet another example of why I think Islam needs a reformation to adjust to the west.   And until they do then they shouldn't come here unless they are willing to take steps to join us. If they are willing to take those steps then they should be welcomed as long as they are taking the legal immigration route.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If that is what you feel then you're going to have issues with Orthodox Jewish women, and a good many Christian sects as well who don't hold with baring a lot of skin or form fitting clothing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I should be able to see everyone's face and hair.     The Jews wear a wig to cover their head and if Muslims wanna do that then ok.
> 
> The Amish women have it better than the Muslim women when it comes to clothing.
Click to expand...


Orthodox Jews wear headscarves and turban-type head coverings as well.  I don't care what they wear on their heads or over their hair, it's a free country.


----------



## flacaltenn

StLucieBengal said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tilly said:
> 
> 
> 
> A French woman's perspective:
> 
> 
> *Why should France accept the burkini? Its time to debate integration head-on*
> 
> MURIEL DEMARCUS
> 30 AUGUST 2016 • 1:36PM
> 
> The burkini ban in my home country (I am a French woman living in London) has made headlines for most of August.  Despite the fact that it has eventually been overturned by the highest French court, the debate is far from over. Journalists have had a field day mocking what they see as an attack against personal freedoms, and keep mentioning that the rightwing in France still supports the ban. What a simplistic view of the situation!
> 
> According to various polls, two thirds of the French population supported the ban, and this included the socialist French Prime Minister, Manuel Valls, who famously said that that the full-body swimsuit symbolised the enslavement of women. So what is this really about? I got tired of reading analysis that, in my view, only gave a partial side of the issue, so here is my (very French) take on it.
> 
> First of all, France is a secular country. Obviously, France is not the only Western country to insist on the separation of church and state – but I believe that it does so more militantly than any other. To an extent, you could say that secularism is the closest thing we French have to a state religion. It underpinned the French Revolution and has been a foundation of the country's progressive thought for centuries. The law of separation meant strict official neutrality in religious affairs. The Republic has always recognised individuals, rather than groups: this means that you are supposed to be French first, then Muslim, or Catholic, or whatever your religion or ethnic minority might be. You therefore need to comply with the law even if it goes against your religious beliefs, because secularism prevails in all circumstances.  Although it can be carried to extremes that other countries don’t understand, this view of citizenship is fundamentally non-discriminatory and inclusive. It’s all about finding a common ground, whatever your religion. Burkini bans must be viewed in this context, and are nothing new.
> 
> Rightly or wrongly, French citizens are scared of the Islamisation of their society. Obviously the latest attacks in Nice have further polarised an already divided population. The population is still traumatised, and believes that things have become worse over the last decade or so: people see more veiled women on the street, and are shocked to see a few niqabs or burkas from time to time, despite a full ban. This is compounded by the fact that young women are more and more targeted by some members of the Muslim community on the issue of modesty. For instance, last year in Reims a young woman sunbathing in a public park was set upon by a gang of teenage girls. They objected to her bikini, and the town’s authorities were fast to insist there was no religious aspect to the attack. Nobody believed them.
> 
> I belong to a generation that never saw a burkini or a full-body swimsuit at the beach before this summer’s events. This is clearly a new occurrence. The French also are shocked to learn that France is now home to thousands of Islamic radicals. Citizens feel that enough ground has been ceded to minorities in general, and to the Muslim minorities in particular. They think that things have now come to a head, and learned the hard way that political correctness doesn’t work. Furthermore, the French don’t understand why their women should cover up when they visit some Muslim country, but let women wear a veil or a burkini when they visit France. In short, they don’t understand why they should compromise when other countries don’t. It’s all about "my country, my rules".
> 
> Then again, I keep reading that the burkini is empowering for Muslim women who wouldn’t be able to go to the beach otherwise. I am struggling with such a point. Just look at the 1950s and 1960s photos of women in modern, comfortable clothes in Afghanistan or Egypt. They clearly were not forced to succumb to the new wave of stricter Islamic dress code. What changed? Why should women suddenly cover up? Islam seems to have been hijacked, and women are, once again, the first hostages. Why should women sympathise with the hijackers? Isn’t this a classic case of Stockholm syndrome?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Egyptian leader Gamal Abdul Nasser with his family in the 1960s CREDIT: AFP/GETTY
> And what’s next? Should we also allow FGM to be respectful of different cultural practices? What about polygamy? In short, Western societies need to define what’s acceptable for them, and what’s not. There is a need to draw a line, and maybe the French have drawn it at the burkini. Is it futile? Maybe. But at least a social debate is starting. It’s a debate that societies simply can’t avoid forever.  Whether we like it or not, society must have a clear set of "inclusiveness principles", and it’s probably better to face the issue rather than ignore it.
> 
> Don’t get me wrong, if covering up was simply a matter of personal style I would be all for it. But let’s be honest: it’s fairly easy to see whether women cover up for religious reasons or not (for starters women would get a hat, not a veil). What makes me angry is when I am out in blistering heat, and I see a family at the beach with kids in bathing suits, the dad in swimming trunks, and the mum covered in black from head to toe. It’s modest and it’s for religious reasons, but those reasons clearly seem oppressive and unfair. I can’t understand why a husband would want his wife to wear this. And don’t even try to swim in such an attire.
> 
> In the end, the burkini and some other Islamic dresses are less innocuous than they seem. It has to do with an explicit inequality between genders, which is unacceptable under French law. Let’s face it: we already have far too many of such inequalities…So why should the French accept this one? And let’s not forget that Syrian women burnt burqas in celebration after being freed from Isil. In the meantime, in France, more Muslim women are peer-pressured to wear the veil or the burkini. This seems rather counter-intuitive.
> 
> In conclusion, it’s time to go back, understand and reinforce the principles that underpin our democracies. Integration is a two-way street. Was the ban the best way to deal with the issue? Probably not. But I sincerely hope that it will start a much-needed social debate, in France and anywhere else.
> 
> Why should France accept the burkini? Its time to debate integration head-on
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, I think it's shaky ground to allow "one pieces" or "modesty skirts". If I go to a French beach --- I want the entire French "experience" dammit !!!!
> 
> It's gonna be a generational thing.
> 
> *It maybe that the next generation ends all of that. THey will marry more open-minded husbands, want to integrate into the workforce and STILL be a practicing Muslim. Besides tolerance -- there's patience. It's a HUGE cultural adjustment. FORCING adjustment does not seem productive. Just like FORCING tolerance out of the picture by replacing it with law may not be productive.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's exactly how I feel about it and typically, the first generation is most traditional and old-country, with succeeding generations being more integrated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The focus should be on NOT housing recent immigrants in LARGE closed govt housing where adaptation is NEVER likely to happen. *And insisting on making French law dominant over religious law.. There's the priorities really. Focus on those.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> EXACTLY.  Creating, essentially culturally closed ghettos, plus - they have high umemployment rates among young adults, and there is a certain amount of discrimmination by the French as well, restricting them to the lower paying jobs.  All that adds fuel to the situation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't the numbers bear out that the second generation is most likely to be radicalized?
> 
> I swear I saw that when they discussed the Orlando shooter.    His mosque pretty close to me:
Click to expand...


That was a truly weird case. The press never figured out the role of the father in that "radicalization".  This guy was yanked of Afghan in the mid 80s after we supported the Mujahadeen and the Taliban against Russia. One of our LARGER mistakes. He was USED by State Dept and probably Intel Agencies as a liason to the Taliban. The father actually BELIEVED that the CIA would install him as a future leader of Afghan in exchange for his "service".  

Now I believe in giving sanctuary in GENERAL to folks that have helped us in war zones. But in this case, we probably overlooked a lot of the fathers support and empathy for "radicals". 

In general "adaptation" involves immersion in the new culture. If you house all your refugees in high density housing and allow madrasas instead of public education -- and allow religious law solutions to issues that no religion in a free society should handle --- you have FAR LESS of a chance of assimilation and putting them into safe and moderated practice of Islam.  Like MOST of America's Muslim communities. 

You just feed the very few RECRUITERS for Radical orgs and movements with a LOT of fresh young talent -- if you don't cut off the OLD cultural practices and associations.


----------



## Mindful

flacaltenn said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tilly said:
> 
> 
> 
> A French woman's perspective:
> 
> 
> *Why should France accept the burkini? Its time to debate integration head-on*
> 
> MURIEL DEMARCUS
> 30 AUGUST 2016 • 1:36PM
> 
> The burkini ban in my home country (I am a French woman living in London) has made headlines for most of August.  Despite the fact that it has eventually been overturned by the highest French court, the debate is far from over. Journalists have had a field day mocking what they see as an attack against personal freedoms, and keep mentioning that the rightwing in France still supports the ban. What a simplistic view of the situation!
> 
> According to various polls, two thirds of the French population supported the ban, and this included the socialist French Prime Minister, Manuel Valls, who famously said that that the full-body swimsuit symbolised the enslavement of women. So what is this really about? I got tired of reading analysis that, in my view, only gave a partial side of the issue, so here is my (very French) take on it.
> 
> First of all, France is a secular country. Obviously, France is not the only Western country to insist on the separation of church and state – but I believe that it does so more militantly than any other. To an extent, you could say that secularism is the closest thing we French have to a state religion. It underpinned the French Revolution and has been a foundation of the country's progressive thought for centuries. The law of separation meant strict official neutrality in religious affairs. The Republic has always recognised individuals, rather than groups: this means that you are supposed to be French first, then Muslim, or Catholic, or whatever your religion or ethnic minority might be. You therefore need to comply with the law even if it goes against your religious beliefs, because secularism prevails in all circumstances.  Although it can be carried to extremes that other countries don’t understand, this view of citizenship is fundamentally non-discriminatory and inclusive. It’s all about finding a common ground, whatever your religion. Burkini bans must be viewed in this context, and are nothing new.
> 
> Rightly or wrongly, French citizens are scared of the Islamisation of their society. Obviously the latest attacks in Nice have further polarised an already divided population. The population is still traumatised, and believes that things have become worse over the last decade or so: people see more veiled women on the street, and are shocked to see a few niqabs or burkas from time to time, despite a full ban. This is compounded by the fact that young women are more and more targeted by some members of the Muslim community on the issue of modesty. For instance, last year in Reims a young woman sunbathing in a public park was set upon by a gang of teenage girls. They objected to her bikini, and the town’s authorities were fast to insist there was no religious aspect to the attack. Nobody believed them.
> 
> I belong to a generation that never saw a burkini or a full-body swimsuit at the beach before this summer’s events. This is clearly a new occurrence. The French also are shocked to learn that France is now home to thousands of Islamic radicals. Citizens feel that enough ground has been ceded to minorities in general, and to the Muslim minorities in particular. They think that things have now come to a head, and learned the hard way that political correctness doesn’t work. Furthermore, the French don’t understand why their women should cover up when they visit some Muslim country, but let women wear a veil or a burkini when they visit France. In short, they don’t understand why they should compromise when other countries don’t. It’s all about "my country, my rules".
> 
> Then again, I keep reading that the burkini is empowering for Muslim women who wouldn’t be able to go to the beach otherwise. I am struggling with such a point. Just look at the 1950s and 1960s photos of women in modern, comfortable clothes in Afghanistan or Egypt. They clearly were not forced to succumb to the new wave of stricter Islamic dress code. What changed? Why should women suddenly cover up? Islam seems to have been hijacked, and women are, once again, the first hostages. Why should women sympathise with the hijackers? Isn’t this a classic case of Stockholm syndrome?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Egyptian leader Gamal Abdul Nasser with his family in the 1960s CREDIT: AFP/GETTY
> And what’s next? Should we also allow FGM to be respectful of different cultural practices? What about polygamy? In short, Western societies need to define what’s acceptable for them, and what’s not. There is a need to draw a line, and maybe the French have drawn it at the burkini. Is it futile? Maybe. But at least a social debate is starting. It’s a debate that societies simply can’t avoid forever.  Whether we like it or not, society must have a clear set of "inclusiveness principles", and it’s probably better to face the issue rather than ignore it.
> 
> Don’t get me wrong, if covering up was simply a matter of personal style I would be all for it. But let’s be honest: it’s fairly easy to see whether women cover up for religious reasons or not (for starters women would get a hat, not a veil). What makes me angry is when I am out in blistering heat, and I see a family at the beach with kids in bathing suits, the dad in swimming trunks, and the mum covered in black from head to toe. It’s modest and it’s for religious reasons, but those reasons clearly seem oppressive and unfair. I can’t understand why a husband would want his wife to wear this. And don’t even try to swim in such an attire.
> 
> In the end, the burkini and some other Islamic dresses are less innocuous than they seem. It has to do with an explicit inequality between genders, which is unacceptable under French law. Let’s face it: we already have far too many of such inequalities…So why should the French accept this one? And let’s not forget that Syrian women burnt burqas in celebration after being freed from Isil. In the meantime, in France, more Muslim women are peer-pressured to wear the veil or the burkini. This seems rather counter-intuitive.
> 
> In conclusion, it’s time to go back, understand and reinforce the principles that underpin our democracies. Integration is a two-way street. Was the ban the best way to deal with the issue? Probably not. But I sincerely hope that it will start a much-needed social debate, in France and anywhere else.
> 
> Why should France accept the burkini? Its time to debate integration head-on
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, I think it's shaky ground to allow "one pieces" or "modesty skirts". If I go to a French beach --- I want the entire French "experience" dammit !!!!
> 
> It's gonna be a generational thing.
> 
> *It maybe that the next generation ends all of that. THey will marry more open-minded husbands, want to integrate into the workforce and STILL be a practicing Muslim. Besides tolerance -- there's patience. It's a HUGE cultural adjustment. FORCING adjustment does not seem productive. Just like FORCING tolerance out of the picture by replacing it with law may not be productive.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's exactly how I feel about it and typically, the first generation is most traditional and old-country, with succeeding generations being more integrated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The focus should be on NOT housing recent immigrants in LARGE closed govt housing where adaptation is NEVER likely to happen. *And insisting on making French law dominant over religious law.. There's the priorities really. Focus on those.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> EXACTLY.  Creating, essentially culturally closed ghettos, plus - they have high umemployment rates among young adults, and there is a certain amount of discrimmination by the French as well, restricting them to the lower paying jobs.  All that adds fuel to the situation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't the numbers bear out that the second generation is most likely to be radicalized?
> 
> I swear I saw that when they discussed the Orlando shooter.    His mosque pretty close to me:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That was a truly weird case. The press never figured out the role of the father in that "radicalization".  This guy was yanked of Afghan in the mid 80s after we supported the Mujahadeen and the Taliban against Russia. One of our LARGER mistakes. He was USED by State Dept and probably Intel Agencies as a liason to the Taliban. The father actually BELIEVED that the CIA would install him as a future leader of Afghan in exchange for his "service".
> 
> Now I believe in giving sanctuary in GENERAL to folks that have helped us in war zones. But in this case, we probably overlooked a lot of the fathers support and empathy for "radicals".
> 
> In general "adaptation" involves immersion in the new culture. If you house all your refugees in high density housing and allow madrasas instead of public education -- and allow religious law solutions to issues that no religion in a free society should handle --- you have FAR LESS of a chance of assimilation and putting them into safe and moderated practice of Islam.  Like MOST of America's Muslim communities.
> 
> You just feed the very few RECRUITERS for Radical orgs and movements with a LOT of fresh young talent -- if you don't cut off the OLD cultural practices and associations.
Click to expand...


Had Enough Therapy?: The Mind of the Muslim Refugee


----------



## StLucieBengal

Mindful said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tilly said:
> 
> 
> 
> A French woman's perspective:
> 
> 
> *Why should France accept the burkini? Its time to debate integration head-on*
> 
> MURIEL DEMARCUS
> 30 AUGUST 2016 • 1:36PM
> 
> The burkini ban in my home country (I am a French woman living in London) has made headlines for most of August.  Despite the fact that it has eventually been overturned by the highest French court, the debate is far from over. Journalists have had a field day mocking what they see as an attack against personal freedoms, and keep mentioning that the rightwing in France still supports the ban. What a simplistic view of the situation!
> 
> According to various polls, two thirds of the French population supported the ban, and this included the socialist French Prime Minister, Manuel Valls, who famously said that that the full-body swimsuit symbolised the enslavement of women. So what is this really about? I got tired of reading analysis that, in my view, only gave a partial side of the issue, so here is my (very French) take on it.
> 
> First of all, France is a secular country. Obviously, France is not the only Western country to insist on the separation of church and state – but I believe that it does so more militantly than any other. To an extent, you could say that secularism is the closest thing we French have to a state religion. It underpinned the French Revolution and has been a foundation of the country's progressive thought for centuries. The law of separation meant strict official neutrality in religious affairs. The Republic has always recognised individuals, rather than groups: this means that you are supposed to be French first, then Muslim, or Catholic, or whatever your religion or ethnic minority might be. You therefore need to comply with the law even if it goes against your religious beliefs, because secularism prevails in all circumstances.  Although it can be carried to extremes that other countries don’t understand, this view of citizenship is fundamentally non-discriminatory and inclusive. It’s all about finding a common ground, whatever your religion. Burkini bans must be viewed in this context, and are nothing new.
> 
> Rightly or wrongly, French citizens are scared of the Islamisation of their society. Obviously the latest attacks in Nice have further polarised an already divided population. The population is still traumatised, and believes that things have become worse over the last decade or so: people see more veiled women on the street, and are shocked to see a few niqabs or burkas from time to time, despite a full ban. This is compounded by the fact that young women are more and more targeted by some members of the Muslim community on the issue of modesty. For instance, last year in Reims a young woman sunbathing in a public park was set upon by a gang of teenage girls. They objected to her bikini, and the town’s authorities were fast to insist there was no religious aspect to the attack. Nobody believed them.
> 
> I belong to a generation that never saw a burkini or a full-body swimsuit at the beach before this summer’s events. This is clearly a new occurrence. The French also are shocked to learn that France is now home to thousands of Islamic radicals. Citizens feel that enough ground has been ceded to minorities in general, and to the Muslim minorities in particular. They think that things have now come to a head, and learned the hard way that political correctness doesn’t work. Furthermore, the French don’t understand why their women should cover up when they visit some Muslim country, but let women wear a veil or a burkini when they visit France. In short, they don’t understand why they should compromise when other countries don’t. It’s all about "my country, my rules".
> 
> Then again, I keep reading that the burkini is empowering for Muslim women who wouldn’t be able to go to the beach otherwise. I am struggling with such a point. Just look at the 1950s and 1960s photos of women in modern, comfortable clothes in Afghanistan or Egypt. They clearly were not forced to succumb to the new wave of stricter Islamic dress code. What changed? Why should women suddenly cover up? Islam seems to have been hijacked, and women are, once again, the first hostages. Why should women sympathise with the hijackers? Isn’t this a classic case of Stockholm syndrome?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Egyptian leader Gamal Abdul Nasser with his family in the 1960s CREDIT: AFP/GETTY
> And what’s next? Should we also allow FGM to be respectful of different cultural practices? What about polygamy? In short, Western societies need to define what’s acceptable for them, and what’s not. There is a need to draw a line, and maybe the French have drawn it at the burkini. Is it futile? Maybe. But at least a social debate is starting. It’s a debate that societies simply can’t avoid forever.  Whether we like it or not, society must have a clear set of "inclusiveness principles", and it’s probably better to face the issue rather than ignore it.
> 
> Don’t get me wrong, if covering up was simply a matter of personal style I would be all for it. But let’s be honest: it’s fairly easy to see whether women cover up for religious reasons or not (for starters women would get a hat, not a veil). What makes me angry is when I am out in blistering heat, and I see a family at the beach with kids in bathing suits, the dad in swimming trunks, and the mum covered in black from head to toe. It’s modest and it’s for religious reasons, but those reasons clearly seem oppressive and unfair. I can’t understand why a husband would want his wife to wear this. And don’t even try to swim in such an attire.
> 
> In the end, the burkini and some other Islamic dresses are less innocuous than they seem. It has to do with an explicit inequality between genders, which is unacceptable under French law. Let’s face it: we already have far too many of such inequalities…So why should the French accept this one? And let’s not forget that Syrian women burnt burqas in celebration after being freed from Isil. In the meantime, in France, more Muslim women are peer-pressured to wear the veil or the burkini. This seems rather counter-intuitive.
> 
> In conclusion, it’s time to go back, understand and reinforce the principles that underpin our democracies. Integration is a two-way street. Was the ban the best way to deal with the issue? Probably not. But I sincerely hope that it will start a much-needed social debate, in France and anywhere else.
> 
> Why should France accept the burkini? Its time to debate integration head-on
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, I think it's shaky ground to allow "one pieces" or "modesty skirts". If I go to a French beach --- I want the entire French "experience" dammit !!!!
> 
> It's gonna be a generational thing.
> 
> *It maybe that the next generation ends all of that. THey will marry more open-minded husbands, want to integrate into the workforce and STILL be a practicing Muslim. Besides tolerance -- there's patience. It's a HUGE cultural adjustment. FORCING adjustment does not seem productive. Just like FORCING tolerance out of the picture by replacing it with law may not be productive.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's exactly how I feel about it and typically, the first generation is most traditional and old-country, with succeeding generations being more integrated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The focus should be on NOT housing recent immigrants in LARGE closed govt housing where adaptation is NEVER likely to happen. *And insisting on making French law dominant over religious law.. There's the priorities really. Focus on those.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> EXACTLY.  Creating, essentially culturally closed ghettos, plus - they have high umemployment rates among young adults, and there is a certain amount of discrimmination by the French as well, restricting them to the lower paying jobs.  All that adds fuel to the situation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't the numbers bear out that the second generation is most likely to be radicalized?
> 
> I swear I saw that when they discussed the Orlando shooter.    His mosque pretty close to me:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That was a truly weird case. The press never figured out the role of the father in that "radicalization".  This guy was yanked of Afghan in the mid 80s after we supported the Mujahadeen and the Taliban against Russia. One of our LARGER mistakes. He was USED by State Dept and probably Intel Agencies as a liason to the Taliban. The father actually BELIEVED that the CIA would install him as a future leader of Afghan in exchange for his "service".
> 
> Now I believe in giving sanctuary in GENERAL to folks that have helped us in war zones. But in this case, we probably overlooked a lot of the fathers support and empathy for "radicals".
> 
> In general "adaptation" involves immersion in the new culture. If you house all your refugees in high density housing and allow madrasas instead of public education -- and allow religious law solutions to issues that no religion in a free society should handle --- you have FAR LESS of a chance of assimilation and putting them into safe and moderated practice of Islam.  Like MOST of America's Muslim communities.
> 
> You just feed the very few RECRUITERS for Radical orgs and movements with a LOT of fresh young talent -- if you don't cut off the OLD cultural practices and associations.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Had Enough Therapy?: The Mind of the Muslim Refugee
Click to expand...



History has shown that you can only push Germans so far until they take matters into their own hands and when they do its not a good deal for those causing trouble.


----------



## Dogmaphobe

I wonder how people would feel if a million klansmen arrived in their state and immediately set about to intimidate the locals by wearing their klan robes everywhere?

I imagine the same people who defend the islamonazis here would be all over it like shit on stink.


----------



## ChrisL

StLucieBengal said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> According to the woman who wears it she is commanded as such.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's her interpretation. There are Muslin women all over the world who do not cover. The Koran does not say to cover head to toe. It says to dress modestly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree.  No where is a burka mentioned - most of it is cultural.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You can agree that the burka is a foul and oppressive garmet though right?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yup - if it's forced on her.  However- if a woman freely chooses it without coercion, then it's her choice - even though it seems crazy to me that any woman would choose it.  I value choice and I won't take that choice from her.  But in this country - covering that much leads to security concerns, it's impossible to do most jobs, our culture requires an ability to see peole's faces, and there are even safety concerns being out in public and not being able to see clearly.  There are a lot of reasons not to allow burkas that make sense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No woman chooses to wear a burka.   The only way any woman goes along with wearing one is if they are scared or have been brain washed.
> 
> A Burkini is just an extension of that .... It's men trying to keep a tight grip on women.
> 
> If they are in the west and want to rock one of those Jewish swim suits you posted then so be it.... They can also get a sun hat and properly fit in with the west.  No one wants to see these women in a string bikini.
> 
> Wearing a burka or Burkini just keeps them seperate from society and if they are trying for that then there is no point on them being here.
> 
> This is yet another example of why I think Islam needs a reformation to adjust to the west.   And until they do then they shouldn't come here unless they are willing to take steps to join us. If they are willing to take those steps then they should be welcomed as long as they are taking the legal immigration route.
Click to expand...


Some of them do in fact choose to wear it.  I don't know what they do in France, but here in America, we don't have dress codes.


----------



## ChrisL

If they don't want to wear one, then they shouldn't have to.  If they do want to wear one, then that should be their own personal clothing choice.


----------



## gtopa1

Coyote said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Women should be able to wear what they want at the beach.  As long as they aren't hurting anyone else, it doesn't matter.
> 
> Some of these women will not wear a bikini because it would go against their religious convictions.  Whether or not YOU feel that they were brainwashed into this mindset is rather irrelevant because, while I don't doubt that might be the case in many instances, it is certainly not the case in all instances because there are some women have converted to the Muslim religion of their own free will.
> 
> *To go onto a beach and to FORCE them to expose more skin than they feel comfortable exposing is just wrong!  That is not any better than the men who would FORCE them to cover up*!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's basically how I feel.  There are standards in every country for the minimum amount of clothing required and I don't see an issue with that - you just adjust to that country.  But forcing a woman to expose MORE than she is comfortable with crosses a line imo - unless there is a good reason for it - security reasons or safety or ability to perform job.  IMO - there isn't much difference between forcing a woman to cover up and forcing a woman to uncover.
Click to expand...


Reminds me of that oaf Tommy Tainant singing "show the boys your t...s. " at football matches. Just downright wrong!!

Greg


----------



## gtopa1

StLucieBengal said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> *"‘I am commanded by Allah to be modest’*
> 
> I enjoy wearing the burkini. As a Muslim woman I am encouraged by the Qur’an not to wear the same as non-Muslims and to remain identifiably Muslim at all times. Anyone who says otherwise is either putting their love of the _dunya_ (or their culture first. As a Muslim, we believe this world is a temporary pleasure trap. It will seduce you from your _akhira_ (our rewards in the afterlife). I am also commanded by Allah to be modest (_hayaa_) and observe hijab at all times. So I am covered up from legs to neck and my lower arms are on display when there are women or family members present. I’m white British, and a revert Muslim. "
> 
> Why we wear the burkini: five women on dressing modestly at the beach
> 
> Such is the life of someone who follows their faith.
> 
> 
> 
> They are not commanded by Allah to wear the burkini, the abaya, the hijab, etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> According to the woman who wears it she is commanded as such.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's her interpretation. There are Muslin women all over the world who do not cover. The Koran does not say to cover head to toe. It says to dress modestly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree.  No where is a burka mentioned - most of it is cultural.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You can agree that the burka is a foul and oppressive garmet though right?
Click to expand...


Well I'll never wear one!!

Greg


----------



## gtopa1

StLucieBengal said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tilly said:
> 
> 
> 
> A French woman's perspective:
> 
> 
> *Why should France accept the burkini? Its time to debate integration head-on*
> 
> MURIEL DEMARCUS
> 30 AUGUST 2016 • 1:36PM
> 
> The burkini ban in my home country (I am a French woman living in London) has made headlines for most of August.  Despite the fact that it has eventually been overturned by the highest French court, the debate is far from over. Journalists have had a field day mocking what they see as an attack against personal freedoms, and keep mentioning that the rightwing in France still supports the ban. What a simplistic view of the situation!
> 
> According to various polls, two thirds of the French population supported the ban, and this included the socialist French Prime Minister, Manuel Valls, who famously said that that the full-body swimsuit symbolised the enslavement of women. So what is this really about? I got tired of reading analysis that, in my view, only gave a partial side of the issue, so here is my (very French) take on it.
> 
> First of all, France is a secular country. Obviously, France is not the only Western country to insist on the separation of church and state – but I believe that it does so more militantly than any other. To an extent, you could say that secularism is the closest thing we French have to a state religion. It underpinned the French Revolution and has been a foundation of the country's progressive thought for centuries. The law of separation meant strict official neutrality in religious affairs. The Republic has always recognised individuals, rather than groups: this means that you are supposed to be French first, then Muslim, or Catholic, or whatever your religion or ethnic minority might be. You therefore need to comply with the law even if it goes against your religious beliefs, because secularism prevails in all circumstances.  Although it can be carried to extremes that other countries don’t understand, this view of citizenship is fundamentally non-discriminatory and inclusive. It’s all about finding a common ground, whatever your religion. Burkini bans must be viewed in this context, and are nothing new.
> 
> Rightly or wrongly, French citizens are scared of the Islamisation of their society. Obviously the latest attacks in Nice have further polarised an already divided population. The population is still traumatised, and believes that things have become worse over the last decade or so: people see more veiled women on the street, and are shocked to see a few niqabs or burkas from time to time, despite a full ban. This is compounded by the fact that young women are more and more targeted by some members of the Muslim community on the issue of modesty. For instance, last year in Reims a young woman sunbathing in a public park was set upon by a gang of teenage girls. They objected to her bikini, and the town’s authorities were fast to insist there was no religious aspect to the attack. Nobody believed them.
> 
> I belong to a generation that never saw a burkini or a full-body swimsuit at the beach before this summer’s events. This is clearly a new occurrence. The French also are shocked to learn that France is now home to thousands of Islamic radicals. Citizens feel that enough ground has been ceded to minorities in general, and to the Muslim minorities in particular. They think that things have now come to a head, and learned the hard way that political correctness doesn’t work. Furthermore, the French don’t understand why their women should cover up when they visit some Muslim country, but let women wear a veil or a burkini when they visit France. In short, they don’t understand why they should compromise when other countries don’t. It’s all about "my country, my rules".
> 
> Then again, I keep reading that the burkini is empowering for Muslim women who wouldn’t be able to go to the beach otherwise. I am struggling with such a point. Just look at the 1950s and 1960s photos of women in modern, comfortable clothes in Afghanistan or Egypt. They clearly were not forced to succumb to the new wave of stricter Islamic dress code. What changed? Why should women suddenly cover up? Islam seems to have been hijacked, and women are, once again, the first hostages. Why should women sympathise with the hijackers? Isn’t this a classic case of Stockholm syndrome?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Egyptian leader Gamal Abdul Nasser with his family in the 1960s CREDIT: AFP/GETTY
> And what’s next? Should we also allow FGM to be respectful of different cultural practices? What about polygamy? In short, Western societies need to define what’s acceptable for them, and what’s not. There is a need to draw a line, and maybe the French have drawn it at the burkini. Is it futile? Maybe. But at least a social debate is starting. It’s a debate that societies simply can’t avoid forever.  Whether we like it or not, society must have a clear set of "inclusiveness principles", and it’s probably better to face the issue rather than ignore it.
> 
> Don’t get me wrong, if covering up was simply a matter of personal style I would be all for it. But let’s be honest: it’s fairly easy to see whether women cover up for religious reasons or not (for starters women would get a hat, not a veil). What makes me angry is when I am out in blistering heat, and I see a family at the beach with kids in bathing suits, the dad in swimming trunks, and the mum covered in black from head to toe. It’s modest and it’s for religious reasons, but those reasons clearly seem oppressive and unfair. I can’t understand why a husband would want his wife to wear this. And don’t even try to swim in such an attire.
> 
> In the end, the burkini and some other Islamic dresses are less innocuous than they seem. It has to do with an explicit inequality between genders, which is unacceptable under French law. Let’s face it: we already have far too many of such inequalities…So why should the French accept this one? And let’s not forget that Syrian women burnt burqas in celebration after being freed from Isil. In the meantime, in France, more Muslim women are peer-pressured to wear the veil or the burkini. This seems rather counter-intuitive.
> 
> In conclusion, it’s time to go back, understand and reinforce the principles that underpin our democracies. Integration is a two-way street. Was the ban the best way to deal with the issue? Probably not. But I sincerely hope that it will start a much-needed social debate, in France and anywhere else.
> 
> Why should France accept the burkini? Its time to debate integration head-on
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, I think it's shaky ground to allow "one pieces" or "modesty skirts". If I go to a French beach --- I want the entire French "experience" dammit !!!!
> 
> It's gonna be a generational thing.
> 
> *It maybe that the next generation ends all of that. THey will marry more open-minded husbands, want to integrate into the workforce and STILL be a practicing Muslim. Besides tolerance -- there's patience. It's a HUGE cultural adjustment. FORCING adjustment does not seem productive. Just like FORCING tolerance out of the picture by replacing it with law may not be productive.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's exactly how I feel about it and typically, the first generation is most traditional and old-country, with succeeding generations being more integrated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The focus should be on NOT housing recent immigrants in LARGE closed govt housing where adaptation is NEVER likely to happen. *And insisting on making French law dominant over religious law.. There's the priorities really. Focus on those.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> EXACTLY.  Creating, essentially culturally closed ghettos, plus - they have high umemployment rates among young adults, and there is a certain amount of discrimmination by the French as well, restricting them to the lower paying jobs.  All that adds fuel to the situation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> *Doesn't the numbers bear out that the second generation is most likely to be radicalized?  *
> 
> I swear I saw that when they discussed the Orlando shooter.    His mosque pretty close to me:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Being radicalized is a different scenario I think, then immigrant integration.  Not sure though so I'd like to see some actual statistics.
> 
> My understanding is first generation is most likely to retain traditional values and habits that succeeding generations rebel against but they are also the ones who chose to immigrate to a new country and adopt it as their own.  In many cases they've likely fled bad situations.  It may be in some cases the second generation or those who immigrated as young children, are caught in the not quite belonging in either camp situation, and that leaves them more vulnerable to radicalization?
> 
> In the US second generation and forward are usually well integrated - but it could be France's dynamic is different.  France also lags far behind US and Canada in integration of immigrants.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I will have to find the details but it was my understanding that the immigrants did what they could to fit but were a bit awkward.    Then the second generation will grow up in the new culture but will feel isolated not being part of their immigrant parents life.    The third generation is where hey finally see themselves and feel like the new culture/home.
Click to expand...


Sounds truish. My kids are totally Aussie; me and my other siblings copped the "wog" thing a bit but we were pretty much completely integrated. Dad was the immigrant; eventually "made it" accepted but there was a lot of exclusion in the 50s. There were cultural barriers; Dad was very 'old Europe"; Tsarist and all.

Greg


----------



## ChrisL

gtopa1 said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> They are not commanded by Allah to wear the burkini, the abaya, the hijab, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> According to the woman who wears it she is commanded as such.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's her interpretation. There are Muslin women all over the world who do not cover. The Koran does not say to cover head to toe. It says to dress modestly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree.  No where is a burka mentioned - most of it is cultural.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You can agree that the burka is a foul and oppressive garmet though right?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well I'll never wear one!!
> 
> Greg
Click to expand...


What about a bikini?  Will you wear one?


----------



## Coyote

ChrisL said:


> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> According to the woman who wears it she is commanded as such.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's her interpretation. There are Muslin women all over the world who do not cover. The Koran does not say to cover head to toe. It says to dress modestly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree.  No where is a burka mentioned - most of it is cultural.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You can agree that the burka is a foul and oppressive garmet though right?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well I'll never wear one!!
> 
> Greg
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What about a bikini?  Will you wear one?
Click to expand...


----------



## gtopa1

So let's be clear; there is a huge difference between burkinis and the full deal.






Lovely.






Not so nice.

Greg


----------



## gtopa1

ChrisL said:


> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> According to the woman who wears it she is commanded as such.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's her interpretation. There are Muslin women all over the world who do not cover. The Koran does not say to cover head to toe. It says to dress modestly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree.  No where is a burka mentioned - most of it is cultural.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You can agree that the burka is a foul and oppressive garmet though right?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well I'll never wear one!!
> 
> Greg
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What about a bikini?  Will you wear one?
Click to expand...


ChrisL; we really don't want to go there!! I am a mankini free zone!!






Greg


----------



## ChrisL

gtopa1 said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's her interpretation. There are Muslin women all over the world who do not cover. The Koran does not say to cover head to toe. It says to dress modestly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree.  No where is a burka mentioned - most of it is cultural.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You can agree that the burka is a foul and oppressive garmet though right?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well I'll never wear one!!
> 
> Greg
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What about a bikini?  Will you wear one?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ChrisL; we really don't want to go there!! I am a mankini free zone!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Greg
Click to expand...


That one guy didn't even tie his bikini top!  Indecent exposure!


----------



## ChrisL

gtopa1 said:


> So let's be clear; there is a huge difference between burkinis and the full deal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lovely.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not so nice.
> 
> Greg



The Batman logo is perfect though!


----------



## flacaltenn

Mindful said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tilly said:
> 
> 
> 
> A French woman's perspective:
> 
> 
> *Why should France accept the burkini? Its time to debate integration head-on*
> 
> MURIEL DEMARCUS
> 30 AUGUST 2016 • 1:36PM
> 
> The burkini ban in my home country (I am a French woman living in London) has made headlines for most of August.  Despite the fact that it has eventually been overturned by the highest French court, the debate is far from over. Journalists have had a field day mocking what they see as an attack against personal freedoms, and keep mentioning that the rightwing in France still supports the ban. What a simplistic view of the situation!
> 
> According to various polls, two thirds of the French population supported the ban, and this included the socialist French Prime Minister, Manuel Valls, who famously said that that the full-body swimsuit symbolised the enslavement of women. So what is this really about? I got tired of reading analysis that, in my view, only gave a partial side of the issue, so here is my (very French) take on it.
> 
> First of all, France is a secular country. Obviously, France is not the only Western country to insist on the separation of church and state – but I believe that it does so more militantly than any other. To an extent, you could say that secularism is the closest thing we French have to a state religion. It underpinned the French Revolution and has been a foundation of the country's progressive thought for centuries. The law of separation meant strict official neutrality in religious affairs. The Republic has always recognised individuals, rather than groups: this means that you are supposed to be French first, then Muslim, or Catholic, or whatever your religion or ethnic minority might be. You therefore need to comply with the law even if it goes against your religious beliefs, because secularism prevails in all circumstances.  Although it can be carried to extremes that other countries don’t understand, this view of citizenship is fundamentally non-discriminatory and inclusive. It’s all about finding a common ground, whatever your religion. Burkini bans must be viewed in this context, and are nothing new.
> 
> Rightly or wrongly, French citizens are scared of the Islamisation of their society. Obviously the latest attacks in Nice have further polarised an already divided population. The population is still traumatised, and believes that things have become worse over the last decade or so: people see more veiled women on the street, and are shocked to see a few niqabs or burkas from time to time, despite a full ban. This is compounded by the fact that young women are more and more targeted by some members of the Muslim community on the issue of modesty. For instance, last year in Reims a young woman sunbathing in a public park was set upon by a gang of teenage girls. They objected to her bikini, and the town’s authorities were fast to insist there was no religious aspect to the attack. Nobody believed them.
> 
> I belong to a generation that never saw a burkini or a full-body swimsuit at the beach before this summer’s events. This is clearly a new occurrence. The French also are shocked to learn that France is now home to thousands of Islamic radicals. Citizens feel that enough ground has been ceded to minorities in general, and to the Muslim minorities in particular. They think that things have now come to a head, and learned the hard way that political correctness doesn’t work. Furthermore, the French don’t understand why their women should cover up when they visit some Muslim country, but let women wear a veil or a burkini when they visit France. In short, they don’t understand why they should compromise when other countries don’t. It’s all about "my country, my rules".
> 
> Then again, I keep reading that the burkini is empowering for Muslim women who wouldn’t be able to go to the beach otherwise. I am struggling with such a point. Just look at the 1950s and 1960s photos of women in modern, comfortable clothes in Afghanistan or Egypt. They clearly were not forced to succumb to the new wave of stricter Islamic dress code. What changed? Why should women suddenly cover up? Islam seems to have been hijacked, and women are, once again, the first hostages. Why should women sympathise with the hijackers? Isn’t this a classic case of Stockholm syndrome?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Egyptian leader Gamal Abdul Nasser with his family in the 1960s CREDIT: AFP/GETTY
> And what’s next? Should we also allow FGM to be respectful of different cultural practices? What about polygamy? In short, Western societies need to define what’s acceptable for them, and what’s not. There is a need to draw a line, and maybe the French have drawn it at the burkini. Is it futile? Maybe. But at least a social debate is starting. It’s a debate that societies simply can’t avoid forever.  Whether we like it or not, society must have a clear set of "inclusiveness principles", and it’s probably better to face the issue rather than ignore it.
> 
> Don’t get me wrong, if covering up was simply a matter of personal style I would be all for it. But let’s be honest: it’s fairly easy to see whether women cover up for religious reasons or not (for starters women would get a hat, not a veil). What makes me angry is when I am out in blistering heat, and I see a family at the beach with kids in bathing suits, the dad in swimming trunks, and the mum covered in black from head to toe. It’s modest and it’s for religious reasons, but those reasons clearly seem oppressive and unfair. I can’t understand why a husband would want his wife to wear this. And don’t even try to swim in such an attire.
> 
> In the end, the burkini and some other Islamic dresses are less innocuous than they seem. It has to do with an explicit inequality between genders, which is unacceptable under French law. Let’s face it: we already have far too many of such inequalities…So why should the French accept this one? And let’s not forget that Syrian women burnt burqas in celebration after being freed from Isil. In the meantime, in France, more Muslim women are peer-pressured to wear the veil or the burkini. This seems rather counter-intuitive.
> 
> In conclusion, it’s time to go back, understand and reinforce the principles that underpin our democracies. Integration is a two-way street. Was the ban the best way to deal with the issue? Probably not. But I sincerely hope that it will start a much-needed social debate, in France and anywhere else.
> 
> Why should France accept the burkini? Its time to debate integration head-on
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, I think it's shaky ground to allow "one pieces" or "modesty skirts". If I go to a French beach --- I want the entire French "experience" dammit !!!!
> 
> It's gonna be a generational thing.
> 
> *It maybe that the next generation ends all of that. THey will marry more open-minded husbands, want to integrate into the workforce and STILL be a practicing Muslim. Besides tolerance -- there's patience. It's a HUGE cultural adjustment. FORCING adjustment does not seem productive. Just like FORCING tolerance out of the picture by replacing it with law may not be productive.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's exactly how I feel about it and typically, the first generation is most traditional and old-country, with succeeding generations being more integrated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The focus should be on NOT housing recent immigrants in LARGE closed govt housing where adaptation is NEVER likely to happen. *And insisting on making French law dominant over religious law.. There's the priorities really. Focus on those.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> EXACTLY.  Creating, essentially culturally closed ghettos, plus - they have high umemployment rates among young adults, and there is a certain amount of discrimmination by the French as well, restricting them to the lower paying jobs.  All that adds fuel to the situation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't the numbers bear out that the second generation is most likely to be radicalized?
> 
> I swear I saw that when they discussed the Orlando shooter.    His mosque pretty close to me:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That was a truly weird case. The press never figured out the role of the father in that "radicalization".  This guy was yanked of Afghan in the mid 80s after we supported the Mujahadeen and the Taliban against Russia. One of our LARGER mistakes. He was USED by State Dept and probably Intel Agencies as a liason to the Taliban. The father actually BELIEVED that the CIA would install him as a future leader of Afghan in exchange for his "service".
> 
> Now I believe in giving sanctuary in GENERAL to folks that have helped us in war zones. But in this case, we probably overlooked a lot of the fathers support and empathy for "radicals".
> 
> In general "adaptation" involves immersion in the new culture. If you house all your refugees in high density housing and allow madrasas instead of public education -- and allow religious law solutions to issues that no religion in a free society should handle --- you have FAR LESS of a chance of assimilation and putting them into safe and moderated practice of Islam.  Like MOST of America's Muslim communities.
> 
> You just feed the very few RECRUITERS for Radical orgs and movements with a LOT of fresh young talent -- if you don't cut off the OLD cultural practices and associations.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Had Enough Therapy?: The Mind of the Muslim Refugee
Click to expand...


Really most of that agi-prop is about CULTURE -- not about the Muslim religion. Especially the economic part. There MIGHT have been expectations from the migrants that the West just GIVES stuff to folks. There MIGHT be skills issues involved. Because in the OLD homeland --- jobs were largely built out of patronage or the worst kind of *Govt* "trickle-down".  All those unmatched expectations dont have a lot to do with the religious side. 

Except for the token effort the author makes to validate the concept of German women being whores compared to the chastity and modesty of "their" women.   Who KNOWS what the expectations were. I don't.* I just suspect that the migrants understanding of Western culture was based on cartoons,propaganda and satire and NOT a lot of real information. 

Kinda explains the surprise Muslim women must be experiencing on the "clothing" issues. Probably they believed the West to be all multicultural and tolerant and celebratory of diversity.*      SURPRISE !!!!! 

That's why you don't ALLOW these kinds of rates of migration. Because of the unknowns. And it's not HUMANE to pat yourselves on the back for being so altruistic and civil --- when the refugees themselves have NO CLUE what they are getting into.. .

BTW --- any form of Western psychology is gonna fail to add understanding to the problems. Western psychology is universally rejected in MidEast - Eastern cultures. You'd have to diagnose their failing home cultures as malicious behavior. THAT'S the disconnect. The culture/economic clash is SO severe, mass migrations like this need to be treated as a medical triage.


----------



## ChrisL

flacaltenn said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, I think it's shaky ground to allow "one pieces" or "modesty skirts". If I go to a French beach --- I want the entire French "experience" dammit !!!!
> 
> It's gonna be a generational thing.
> 
> *It maybe that the next generation ends all of that. THey will marry more open-minded husbands, want to integrate into the workforce and STILL be a practicing Muslim. Besides tolerance -- there's patience. It's a HUGE cultural adjustment. FORCING adjustment does not seem productive. Just like FORCING tolerance out of the picture by replacing it with law may not be productive.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's exactly how I feel about it and typically, the first generation is most traditional and old-country, with succeeding generations being more integrated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The focus should be on NOT housing recent immigrants in LARGE closed govt housing where adaptation is NEVER likely to happen. *And insisting on making French law dominant over religious law.. There's the priorities really. Focus on those.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> EXACTLY.  Creating, essentially culturally closed ghettos, plus - they have high umemployment rates among young adults, and there is a certain amount of discrimmination by the French as well, restricting them to the lower paying jobs.  All that adds fuel to the situation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't the numbers bear out that the second generation is most likely to be radicalized?
> 
> I swear I saw that when they discussed the Orlando shooter.    His mosque pretty close to me:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That was a truly weird case. The press never figured out the role of the father in that "radicalization".  This guy was yanked of Afghan in the mid 80s after we supported the Mujahadeen and the Taliban against Russia. One of our LARGER mistakes. He was USED by State Dept and probably Intel Agencies as a liason to the Taliban. The father actually BELIEVED that the CIA would install him as a future leader of Afghan in exchange for his "service".
> 
> Now I believe in giving sanctuary in GENERAL to folks that have helped us in war zones. But in this case, we probably overlooked a lot of the fathers support and empathy for "radicals".
> 
> In general "adaptation" involves immersion in the new culture. If you house all your refugees in high density housing and allow madrasas instead of public education -- and allow religious law solutions to issues that no religion in a free society should handle --- you have FAR LESS of a chance of assimilation and putting them into safe and moderated practice of Islam.  Like MOST of America's Muslim communities.
> 
> You just feed the very few RECRUITERS for Radical orgs and movements with a LOT of fresh young talent -- if you don't cut off the OLD cultural practices and associations.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Had Enough Therapy?: The Mind of the Muslim Refugee
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Really most of that agi-prop is about CULTURE -- not about the Muslim religion. Especially the economic part. There MIGHT have been expectations from the migrants that the West just GIVES stuff to folks. There MIGHT be skills issues involved. Because in the OLD homeland --- jobs were largely built out of patronage or the worst kind of *Govt* "trickle-down".  All those unmatched expectations dont have a lot to do with the religious side.
> 
> Except for the token effort the author makes to validate the concept of German women being whores compared to the chastity and modesty of "their" women.   Who KNOWS what the expectations were. I don't.* I just suspect that the migrants understanding of Western culture was based on cartoons,propaganda and satire and NOT a lot of real information.
> 
> Kinda explains the surprise Muslim women must be experiencing on the "clothing" issues. Probably they believed the West to be all multicultural and tolerant and celebratory of diversity.*      SURPRISE !!!!!
> 
> That's why you don't ALLOW these kinds of rates of migration. Because of the unknowns. And it's not HUMANE to pat yourselves on the back for being so altruistic and civil --- when the refugees themselves have NO CLUE what they are getting into.. .
> 
> BTW --- any form of Western psychology is gonna fail to add understanding to the problems. Western psychology is universally rejected in MidEast - Eastern cultures. You'd have to diagnose their failing home cultures as malicious behavior. THAT'S the disconnect. The culture/economic clash is SO severe, mass migrations like this need to be treated as a medical triage.
Click to expand...


Definitely.  Culture clash.  Good point, Mr. Flacaltenn.


----------



## flacaltenn

ChrisL said:


> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So let's be clear; there is a huge difference between burkinis and the full deal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lovely.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not so nice.
> 
> Greg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Batman logo is perfect though!
Click to expand...


Got a beach tip for all y'all fashion critics.   All those open tops and skirts are gonna FILL with sand. Which will be uncomfortable. But will also help drag your pretty ass out into run-outs. Pretty much look like a jellyfish while you're getting pulled offshore and calling for help..


----------



## Mindful

flacaltenn said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, I think it's shaky ground to allow "one pieces" or "modesty skirts". If I go to a French beach --- I want the entire French "experience" dammit !!!!
> 
> It's gonna be a generational thing.
> 
> *It maybe that the next generation ends all of that. THey will marry more open-minded husbands, want to integrate into the workforce and STILL be a practicing Muslim. Besides tolerance -- there's patience. It's a HUGE cultural adjustment. FORCING adjustment does not seem productive. Just like FORCING tolerance out of the picture by replacing it with law may not be productive.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's exactly how I feel about it and typically, the first generation is most traditional and old-country, with succeeding generations being more integrated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The focus should be on NOT housing recent immigrants in LARGE closed govt housing where adaptation is NEVER likely to happen. *And insisting on making French law dominant over religious law.. There's the priorities really. Focus on those.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> EXACTLY.  Creating, essentially culturally closed ghettos, plus - they have high umemployment rates among young adults, and there is a certain amount of discrimmination by the French as well, restricting them to the lower paying jobs.  All that adds fuel to the situation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't the numbers bear out that the second generation is most likely to be radicalized?
> 
> I swear I saw that when they discussed the Orlando shooter.    His mosque pretty close to me:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That was a truly weird case. The press never figured out the role of the father in that "radicalization".  This guy was yanked of Afghan in the mid 80s after we supported the Mujahadeen and the Taliban against Russia. One of our LARGER mistakes. He was USED by State Dept and probably Intel Agencies as a liason to the Taliban. The father actually BELIEVED that the CIA would install him as a future leader of Afghan in exchange for his "service".
> 
> Now I believe in giving sanctuary in GENERAL to folks that have helped us in war zones. But in this case, we probably overlooked a lot of the fathers support and empathy for "radicals".
> 
> In general "adaptation" involves immersion in the new culture. If you house all your refugees in high density housing and allow madrasas instead of public education -- and allow religious law solutions to issues that no religion in a free society should handle --- you have FAR LESS of a chance of assimilation and putting them into safe and moderated practice of Islam.  Like MOST of America's Muslim communities.
> 
> You just feed the very few RECRUITERS for Radical orgs and movements with a LOT of fresh young talent -- if you don't cut off the OLD cultural practices and associations.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Had Enough Therapy?: The Mind of the Muslim Refugee
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Really most of that agi-prop is about CULTURE -- not about the Muslim religion. Especially the economic part. There MIGHT have been expectations from the migrants that the West just GIVES stuff to folks. There MIGHT be skills issues involved. Because in the OLD homeland --- jobs were largely built out of patronage or the worst kind of *Govt* "trickle-down".  All those unmatched expectations dont have a lot to do with the religious side.
> 
> Except for the token effort the author makes to validate the concept of German women being whores compared to the chastity and modesty of "their" women.   Who KNOWS what the expectations were. I don't.* I just suspect that the migrants understanding of Western culture was based on cartoons,propaganda and satire and NOT a lot of real information.
> 
> Kinda explains the surprise Muslim women must be experiencing on the "clothing" issues. Probably they believed the West to be all multicultural and tolerant and celebratory of diversity.*      SURPRISE !!!!!
> 
> That's why you don't ALLOW these kinds of rates of migration. Because of the unknowns. And it's not HUMANE to pat yourselves on the back for being so altruistic and civil --- when the refugees themselves have NO CLUE what they are getting into.. .
> 
> BTW --- any form of Western psychology is gonna fail to add understanding to the problems. Western psychology is universally rejected in MidEast - Eastern cultures. You'd have to diagnose their failing home cultures as malicious behavior. THAT'S the disconnect. The culture/economic clash is SO severe, mass migrations like this need to be treated as a medical triage.
Click to expand...


In the early days, when we were watching on TV, footage of the migrants walking, or travelling by bus or train, almost every one of them when interviewed by reporters as to where they were headed, the answer was Germany.

And we wondered why.


----------



## ChrisL

flacaltenn said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So let's be clear; there is a huge difference between burkinis and the full deal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lovely.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not so nice.
> 
> Greg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Batman logo is perfect though!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Got a beach tip for all y'all fashion critics.   All those open tops and skirts are gonna FILL with sand. Which will be uncomfortable. But will also help drag your pretty ass out into run-outs. Pretty much look like a jellyfish while you're getting pulled offshore and calling for help..
Click to expand...


I live on the East Coast (Massachusetts) so I know all about undertow.


----------



## Carla_Danger

Tilly said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> They aren't a major thing but We volunteer a lot time helping victims of domestic violence.   So I know when someone is being dominated and how hard it is to break the mental chains and spell people can be under.
> 
> I see a lot of parallels between women of Islam and DV victims.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, well some women may just be modest about their bodies.  My friend had big boobs and hated how men stared at them.  She wore a T-shirt and shorts whenever she went to the beach.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Being modest isn't a problem at all.
> 
> The photos coyote posted trying to be pro burka.    They are just modest where we can still see face, neck, head.    And most of time we can see below the knees.    Other than the surfboard girl.
> 
> If Muslims are that worried then why don't just wear a full wetsuit?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who cares?    If they try to make me wear one, then we can talk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> They have a long history of being vocal towards non Muslim women once they feel like their nonsense is accepted.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It wasn't that long ago that a Muslim man stabbed a mother and her children at a French holiday resort because they weren't dressed "modestly' enough for his liking - they were wearing T shirts and shorts and the youngest girl was only 8 yrs old. They were all hospitalised.
> Also, women were verbally attacked and threatened by Muslim men and women somewhere else in France for wearing bikinis.
> Not to mention the Corsican beach where Muslim men decided the beach where they were with their wives was off limits to non Muslims - a riot broke out.
> The burkini is just another tool in their arsenal and part of the uniform of Islamism -  the men are by and large pushing it and the women are happy to oblige. There are plenty of modest types of clothing one can wear to the beach without advertising your religion - something France is very tetchy about.
Click to expand...




And that thread of yours was debunked.


----------



## Alex.

Esmeralda said:


> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> *"‘I am commanded by Allah to be modest’*
> 
> I enjoy wearing the burkini. As a Muslim woman I am encouraged by the Qur’an not to wear the same as non-Muslims and to remain identifiably Muslim at all times. Anyone who says otherwise is either putting their love of the _dunya_ (or their culture first. As a Muslim, we believe this world is a temporary pleasure trap. It will seduce you from your _akhira_ (our rewards in the afterlife). I am also commanded by Allah to be modest (_hayaa_) and observe hijab at all times. So I am covered up from legs to neck and my lower arms are on display when there are women or family members present. I’m white British, and a revert Muslim. "
> 
> Why we wear the burkini: five women on dressing modestly at the beach
> 
> Such is the life of someone who follows their faith.
> 
> 
> 
> They are not commanded by Allah to wear the burkini, the abaya, the hijab, etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> According to the woman who wears it she is commanded as such.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's her interpretation. There are Muslin women all over the world who do not cover. The Koran does not say to cover head to toe. It says to dress modestly.
Click to expand...

Are you an expert on the Koran or that religion?


----------



## Alex.

ChrisL said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's her interpretation. There are Muslin women all over the world who do not cover. The Koran does not say to cover head to toe. It says to dress modestly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree.  No where is a burka mentioned - most of it is cultural.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You can agree that the burka is a foul and oppressive garmet though right?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yup - if it's forced on her.  However- if a woman freely chooses it without coercion, then it's her choice - even though it seems crazy to me that any woman would choose it.  I value choice and I won't take that choice from her.  But in this country - covering that much leads to security concerns, it's impossible to do most jobs, our culture requires an ability to see peole's faces, and there are even safety concerns being out in public and not being able to see clearly.  There are a lot of reasons not to allow burkas that make sense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No woman chooses to wear a burka.   The only way any woman goes along with wearing one is if they are scared or have been brain washed.
> 
> A Burkini is just an extension of that .... It's men trying to keep a tight grip on women.
> 
> If they are in the west and want to rock one of those Jewish swim suits you posted then so be it.... They can also get a sun hat and properly fit in with the west.  No one wants to see these women in a string bikini.
> 
> Wearing a burka or Burkini just keeps them seperate from society and if they are trying for that then there is no point on them being here.
> 
> This is yet another example of why I think Islam needs a reformation to adjust to the west.   And until they do then they shouldn't come here unless they are willing to take steps to join us. If they are willing to take those steps then they should be welcomed as long as they are taking the legal immigration route.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Some of them do in fact choose to wear it.  I don't know what they do in France, but here in America, we don't have dress codes.
Click to expand...

Of course we do


----------



## Coyote

We have dress codes for minimum coverage.  Keep the naughty bits out of sight.  That's as far as public areas are concerned.  Or perhaps I should say pubic areas. Private establishments can have what ever dress codes they like.


----------



## ChrisL

Sure, we have laws against nudity and uniforms, things like that, but not actual government interference in what article of clothing we can wear to the beach.  I think that is going too far.


----------



## gtopa1

Alex. said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree.  No where is a burka mentioned - most of it is cultural.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can agree that the burka is a foul and oppressive garmet though right?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yup - if it's forced on her.  However- if a woman freely chooses it without coercion, then it's her choice - even though it seems crazy to me that any woman would choose it.  I value choice and I won't take that choice from her.  But in this country - covering that much leads to security concerns, it's impossible to do most jobs, our culture requires an ability to see peole's faces, and there are even safety concerns being out in public and not being able to see clearly.  There are a lot of reasons not to allow burkas that make sense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No woman chooses to wear a burka.   The only way any woman goes along with wearing one is if they are scared or have been brain washed.
> 
> A Burkini is just an extension of that .... It's men trying to keep a tight grip on women.
> 
> If they are in the west and want to rock one of those Jewish swim suits you posted then so be it.... They can also get a sun hat and properly fit in with the west.  No one wants to see these women in a string bikini.
> 
> Wearing a burka or Burkini just keeps them seperate from society and if they are trying for that then there is no point on them being here.
> 
> This is yet another example of why I think Islam needs a reformation to adjust to the west.   And until they do then they shouldn't come here unless they are willing to take steps to join us. If they are willing to take those steps then they should be welcomed as long as they are taking the legal immigration route.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Some of them do in fact choose to wear it.  I don't know what they do in France, but here in America, we don't have dress codes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Of course we do
Click to expand...


You mean no nakedness on the beach? That's more of an "undress" code, no?

Greg


----------



## gtopa1

Alex. said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree.  No where is a burka mentioned - most of it is cultural.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can agree that the burka is a foul and oppressive garmet though right?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yup - if it's forced on her.  However- if a woman freely chooses it without coercion, then it's her choice - even though it seems crazy to me that any woman would choose it.  I value choice and I won't take that choice from her.  But in this country - covering that much leads to security concerns, it's impossible to do most jobs, our culture requires an ability to see peole's faces, and there are even safety concerns being out in public and not being able to see clearly.  There are a lot of reasons not to allow burkas that make sense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No woman chooses to wear a burka.   The only way any woman goes along with wearing one is if they are scared or have been brain washed.
> 
> A Burkini is just an extension of that .... It's men trying to keep a tight grip on women.
> 
> If they are in the west and want to rock one of those Jewish swim suits you posted then so be it.... They can also get a sun hat and properly fit in with the west.  No one wants to see these women in a string bikini.
> 
> Wearing a burka or Burkini just keeps them seperate from society and if they are trying for that then there is no point on them being here.
> 
> This is yet another example of why I think Islam needs a reformation to adjust to the west.   And until they do then they shouldn't come here unless they are willing to take steps to join us. If they are willing to take those steps then they should be welcomed as long as they are taking the legal immigration route.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Some of them do in fact choose to wear it.  I don't know what they do in France, but here in America, we don't have dress codes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Of course we do
Click to expand...








??? Undress code???

Greg


----------



## ChrisL

gtopa1 said:


> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> You can agree that the burka is a foul and oppressive garmet though right?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yup - if it's forced on her.  However- if a woman freely chooses it without coercion, then it's her choice - even though it seems crazy to me that any woman would choose it.  I value choice and I won't take that choice from her.  But in this country - covering that much leads to security concerns, it's impossible to do most jobs, our culture requires an ability to see peole's faces, and there are even safety concerns being out in public and not being able to see clearly.  There are a lot of reasons not to allow burkas that make sense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No woman chooses to wear a burka.   The only way any woman goes along with wearing one is if they are scared or have been brain washed.
> 
> A Burkini is just an extension of that .... It's men trying to keep a tight grip on women.
> 
> If they are in the west and want to rock one of those Jewish swim suits you posted then so be it.... They can also get a sun hat and properly fit in with the west.  No one wants to see these women in a string bikini.
> 
> Wearing a burka or Burkini just keeps them seperate from society and if they are trying for that then there is no point on them being here.
> 
> This is yet another example of why I think Islam needs a reformation to adjust to the west.   And until they do then they shouldn't come here unless they are willing to take steps to join us. If they are willing to take those steps then they should be welcomed as long as they are taking the legal immigration route.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Some of them do in fact choose to wear it.  I don't know what they do in France, but here in America, we don't have dress codes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Of course we do
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ??? Undress code???
> 
> Greg
Click to expand...


I think that bikini is too small for her!


----------



## gtopa1

ChrisL said:


> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yup - if it's forced on her.  However- if a woman freely chooses it without coercion, then it's her choice - even though it seems crazy to me that any woman would choose it.  I value choice and I won't take that choice from her.  But in this country - covering that much leads to security concerns, it's impossible to do most jobs, our culture requires an ability to see peole's faces, and there are even safety concerns being out in public and not being able to see clearly.  There are a lot of reasons not to allow burkas that make sense.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No woman chooses to wear a burka.   The only way any woman goes along with wearing one is if they are scared or have been brain washed.
> 
> A Burkini is just an extension of that .... It's men trying to keep a tight grip on women.
> 
> If they are in the west and want to rock one of those Jewish swim suits you posted then so be it.... They can also get a sun hat and properly fit in with the west.  No one wants to see these women in a string bikini.
> 
> Wearing a burka or Burkini just keeps them seperate from society and if they are trying for that then there is no point on them being here.
> 
> This is yet another example of why I think Islam needs a reformation to adjust to the west.   And until they do then they shouldn't come here unless they are willing to take steps to join us. If they are willing to take those steps then they should be welcomed as long as they are taking the legal immigration route.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Some of them do in fact choose to wear it.  I don't know what they do in France, but here in America, we don't have dress codes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Of course we do
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ??? Undress code???
> 
> Greg
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think that bikini is too small for her!
Click to expand...


Gotta be a photo shoot. One couldn't really be serious about wearing something like that.

Greg


----------



## skye

StLucieBengal said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't know guys. The RIGHT burkini looks good to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When you grew up with women in wetsuits out sharing the waves ---- THAT ^^^^ bothers me less than some of the horrors I can't UNSEE from my beach days.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why a burkini when you can have a bikini???   hehe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes please.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I went yesterday to my favourite Turkish cafe for a Gözleme. The woman who cooked it for me wore a head covering. Which contrasted starkly with the girl sitting by the window wearing a backless summer top. No burkhas, but the whole place was full of a contradiction in terms. My beautiful waitress, head covered, but with the most elaborately and seductively made up eyes.
> 
> But, to make the point of alluring concealment.  The women whose bodies were totally covered; those garments clung to every curve.
> 
> What would any normal hot blooded male make of that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah I guess I am old fashioned.   Just not into ninjas.    I like to see more than just eyes.
> 
> Besides these days you never know .... Could be a tranny under there....
Click to expand...



Indeed, it could!  ~~~~~


----------



## StLucieBengal

skye said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't know guys. The RIGHT burkini looks good to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When you grew up with women in wetsuits out sharing the waves ---- THAT ^^^^ bothers me less than some of the horrors I can't UNSEE from my beach days.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why a burkini when you can have a bikini???   hehe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes please.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I went yesterday to my favourite Turkish cafe for a Gözleme. The woman who cooked it for me wore a head covering. Which contrasted starkly with the girl sitting by the window wearing a backless summer top. No burkhas, but the whole place was full of a contradiction in terms. My beautiful waitress, head covered, but with the most elaborately and seductively made up eyes.
> 
> But, to make the point of alluring concealment.  The women whose bodies were totally covered; those garments clung to every curve.
> 
> What would any normal hot blooded male make of that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah I guess I am old fashioned.   Just not into ninjas.    I like to see more than just eyes.
> 
> Besides these days you never know .... Could be a tranny under there....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, it could!  ~~~~~
Click to expand...



Worst part about being a Muslim.   Would have to cup check the burkas so make sure what your getting .


----------



## skye

StLucieBengal said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why a burkini when you can have a bikini???   hehe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes please.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I went yesterday to my favourite Turkish cafe for a Gözleme. The woman who cooked it for me wore a head covering. Which contrasted starkly with the girl sitting by the window wearing a backless summer top. No burkhas, but the whole place was full of a contradiction in terms. My beautiful waitress, head covered, but with the most elaborately and seductively made up eyes.
> 
> But, to make the point of alluring concealment.  The women whose bodies were totally covered; those garments clung to every curve.
> 
> What would any normal hot blooded male make of that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah I guess I am old fashioned.   Just not into ninjas.    I like to see more than just eyes.
> 
> Besides these days you never know .... Could be a tranny under there....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, it could!  ~~~~~
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Worst part about being a Muslim.   Would have to cup check the burkas so make sure what your getting .
Click to expand...



        ^^^^^^^^^^


----------



## StLucieBengal

skye said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes please.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I went yesterday to my favourite Turkish cafe for a Gözleme. The woman who cooked it for me wore a head covering. Which contrasted starkly with the girl sitting by the window wearing a backless summer top. No burkhas, but the whole place was full of a contradiction in terms. My beautiful waitress, head covered, but with the most elaborately and seductively made up eyes.
> 
> But, to make the point of alluring concealment.  The women whose bodies were totally covered; those garments clung to every curve.
> 
> What would any normal hot blooded male make of that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah I guess I am old fashioned.   Just not into ninjas.    I like to see more than just eyes.
> 
> Besides these days you never know .... Could be a tranny under there....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, it could!  ~~~~~
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Worst part about being a Muslim.   Would have to cup check the burkas so make sure what your getting .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> ^^^^^^^^^^
Click to expand...


The burka is set up for trannies ....  Too bad for them that Muslims behead gays.      Could probably fool them with anal for a while....   Maybe the trannies would get off on the deception.


----------



## Alex.

StLucieBengal said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> I went yesterday to my favourite Turkish cafe for a Gözleme. The woman who cooked it for me wore a head covering. Which contrasted starkly with the girl sitting by the window wearing a backless summer top. No burkhas, but the whole place was full of a contradiction in terms. My beautiful waitress, head covered, but with the most elaborately and seductively made up eyes.
> 
> But, to make the point of alluring concealment.  The women whose bodies were totally covered; those garments clung to every curve.
> 
> What would any normal hot blooded male make of that?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah I guess I am old fashioned.   Just not into ninjas.    I like to see more than just eyes.
> 
> Besides these days you never know .... Could be a tranny under there....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, it could!  ~~~~~
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Worst part about being a Muslim.   Would have to cup check the burkas so make sure what your getting .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> ^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The burka is set up for trannies ....  Too bad for them that Muslims behead gays.      Could probably fool them with anal for a while....   Maybe the trannies would get off on the deception.
Click to expand...

Jesus fucking Christ do you want to be the pecker checker?


----------



## Dogmaphobe

ChrisL said:


> I think that bikini is too small for her!



Well, yes, but at least it's a Muslim friendly beach.

I mean, just look at those camel toe tracks!


----------



## StLucieBengal

Alex. said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah I guess I am old fashioned.   Just not into ninjas.    I like to see more than just eyes.
> 
> Besides these days you never know .... Could be a tranny under there....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, it could!  ~~~~~
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Worst part about being a Muslim.   Would have to cup check the burkas so make sure what your getting .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> ^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The burka is set up for trannies ....  Too bad for them that Muslims behead gays.      Could probably fool them with anal for a while....   Maybe the trannies would get off on the deception.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Jesus fucking Christ do you want to be the pecker checker?
Click to expand...



Haha no.   Just saying maybe the trannies have a path via the burka.


----------



## skye

StLucieBengal said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> I went yesterday to my favourite Turkish cafe for a Gözleme. The woman who cooked it for me wore a head covering. Which contrasted starkly with the girl sitting by the window wearing a backless summer top. No burkhas, but the whole place was full of a contradiction in terms. My beautiful waitress, head covered, but with the most elaborately and seductively made up eyes.
> 
> But, to make the point of alluring concealment.  The women whose bodies were totally covered; those garments clung to every curve.
> 
> What would any normal hot blooded male make of that?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah I guess I am old fashioned.   Just not into ninjas.    I like to see more than just eyes.
> 
> Besides these days you never know .... Could be a tranny under there....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, it could!  ~~~~~
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Worst part about being a Muslim.   Would have to cup check the burkas so make sure what your getting .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> ^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The burka is set up for trannies ....  Too bad for them that Muslims behead gays.      Could probably fool them with anal for a while....   Maybe the trannies would get off on the deception.
Click to expand...



     ^^^


It's   has degenerated into  a sick culture, I tell you.


----------



## Alex.

"*Women are being dictated to and squeezed from all sides. *Beyond the strictures of social norms — and they are powerful in many countries — the use of the tools of government to enforce dress codes and standards of appearance is becoming increasingly prevalent in countries where the men in power see their domination and sense of national identity slipping away. And *this is true for the secular left as much as the religious right*."



Burkini Wars Show What’s Wrong With the Religious Right — and Secular Left

I do not think there is any clear winner in this contest.


----------



## Alex.

StLucieBengal said:


> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, it could!  ~~~~~
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Worst part about being a Muslim.   Would have to cup check the burkas so make sure what your getting .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> ^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The burka is set up for trannies ....  Too bad for them that Muslims behead gays.      Could probably fool them with anal for a while....   Maybe the trannies would get off on the deception.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Jesus fucking Christ do you want to be the pecker checker?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Haha no.   Just saying maybe the trannies have a path via the burka.
Click to expand...

Ok I got a bit worried there for a second


----------



## StLucieBengal

Alex. said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> Worst part about being a Muslim.   Would have to cup check the burkas so make sure what your getting .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The burka is set up for trannies ....  Too bad for them that Muslims behead gays.      Could probably fool them with anal for a while....   Maybe the trannies would get off on the deception.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Jesus fucking Christ do you want to be the pecker checker?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Haha no.   Just saying maybe the trannies have a path via the burka.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ok I got a bit worried there for a second
Click to expand...


Haha I am a uniter.   Let's unite the trannies and the Muslims.


----------



## StLucieBengal

Alex. said:


> "*Women are being dictated to and squeezed from all sides. *Beyond the strictures of social norms — and they are powerful in many countries — the use of the tools of government to enforce dress codes and standards of appearance is becoming increasingly prevalent in countries where the men in power see their domination and sense of national identity slipping away. And *this is true for the secular left as much as the religious right*."
> 
> 
> 
> Burkini Wars Show What’s Wrong With the Religious Right — and Secular Left
> 
> I do not think there is any clear winner in this contest.



There is no need for a burka or Burkini.   

It's not flattering and really the only reason it's worn is because Islamic men do not have any self control to not rape women.   

its Islamic men that must change not the women.    Poor women have to dress ridiculously or be raped and assaulted.    Which is Precisely why I would never let any Islamic boy near my daughters.


----------



## Alex.

StLucieBengal said:


> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> "*Women are being dictated to and squeezed from all sides. *Beyond the strictures of social norms — and they are powerful in many countries — the use of the tools of government to enforce dress codes and standards of appearance is becoming increasingly prevalent in countries where the men in power see their domination and sense of national identity slipping away. And *this is true for the secular left as much as the religious right*."
> 
> 
> 
> Burkini Wars Show What’s Wrong With the Religious Right — and Secular Left
> 
> I do not think there is any clear winner in this contest.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no need for a burka or Burkini.
> 
> It's not flattering and really the only reason it's worn is because Islamic men do not have any self control to not rape women.
> 
> its Islamic men that must change not the women.    Poor women have to dress ridiculously or be raped and assaulted.    Which is Precisely why I would never let any Islamic boy near my daughters.
Click to expand...

From a fashion standpoint the burka and burkini are bullshit.

From a humanitarian standpoint the burka and burkini are bullshit

From a religious standpoint the burka and burkini are bullshit


----------



## Mindful

What raised my eyebrows slightly:

A head covered woman selling erotic underwear in Victoria's Secret.

Anything is possible in America. lol


----------



## gtopa1

StLucieBengal said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why a burkini when you can have a bikini???   hehe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes please.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I went yesterday to my favourite Turkish cafe for a Gözleme. The woman who cooked it for me wore a head covering. Which contrasted starkly with the girl sitting by the window wearing a backless summer top. No burkhas, but the whole place was full of a contradiction in terms. My beautiful waitress, head covered, but with the most elaborately and seductively made up eyes.
> 
> But, to make the point of alluring concealment.  The women whose bodies were totally covered; those garments clung to every curve.
> 
> What would any normal hot blooded male make of that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah I guess I am old fashioned.   Just not into ninjas.    I like to see more than just eyes.
> 
> Besides these days you never know .... Could be a tranny under there....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, it could!  ~~~~~
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Worst part about being a Muslim.   Would have to cup check the burkas so make sure what your getting .
Click to expand...


lol. You've been watching....


Greg


----------



## StLucieBengal

gtopa1 said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes please.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I went yesterday to my favourite Turkish cafe for a Gözleme. The woman who cooked it for me wore a head covering. Which contrasted starkly with the girl sitting by the window wearing a backless summer top. No burkhas, but the whole place was full of a contradiction in terms. My beautiful waitress, head covered, but with the most elaborately and seductively made up eyes.
> 
> But, to make the point of alluring concealment.  The women whose bodies were totally covered; those garments clung to every curve.
> 
> What would any normal hot blooded male make of that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah I guess I am old fashioned.   Just not into ninjas.    I like to see more than just eyes.
> 
> Besides these days you never know .... Could be a tranny under there....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, it could!  ~~~~~
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Worst part about being a Muslim.   Would have to cup check the burkas so make sure what your getting .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> lol. You've been watching....
> 
> 
> Greg
Click to expand...



Better than this ..... Haha


----------



## Esmeralda




----------



## gtopa1

Alex. said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> "*Women are being dictated to and squeezed from all sides. *Beyond the strictures of social norms — and they are powerful in many countries — the use of the tools of government to enforce dress codes and standards of appearance is becoming increasingly prevalent in countries where the men in power see their domination and sense of national identity slipping away. And *this is true for the secular left as much as the religious right*."
> 
> 
> 
> Burkini Wars Show What’s Wrong With the Religious Right — and Secular Left
> 
> I do not think there is any clear winner in this contest.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no need for a burka or Burkini.
> 
> It's not flattering and really the only reason it's worn is because Islamic men do not have any self control to not rape women.
> 
> its Islamic men that must change not the women.    Poor women have to dress ridiculously or be raped and assaulted.    Which is Precisely why I would never let any Islamic boy near my daughters.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> From a fashion standpoint the burka and burkini are bullshit.
> 
> From a humanitarian standpoint the burka and burkini are bullshit
> 
> From a religious standpoint the burka and burkini are bullshit
Click to expand...


Bullshit sure is gettin' spread around!!! But remember; it .....


It was invented in Western Sydney. I see the burkini as a transition garment. Some are quite cute.

Greg


----------



## Mindful

The ideal solution.

I bought a couple of these from the souk in Marrakech

Perfect for hot weather.


----------



## gtopa1

Mindful said:


> The ideal solution.
> 
> I bought a couple of these from the souk in Marrakech
> 
> Perfect for hot weather.



All cotton? What are they called?

Greg


----------



## Mindful

gtopa1 said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> The ideal solution.
> 
> I bought a couple of these from the souk in Marrakech
> 
> Perfect for hot weather.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All cotton? What are they called
> 
> 
> Greg
Click to expand...


Yes, all cotton kaftans.

Various styles and colours.


----------



## gtopa1

Mindful said:


> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> The ideal solution.
> 
> I bought a couple of these from the souk in Marrakech
> 
> Perfect for hot weather.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All cotton? What are they called
> 
> 
> Greg
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, all cotton kaftans.
> 
> Various styles and colours.
Click to expand...


lol. I'm used to blokes wearing those. I'd forgotten that they were also a woman's garment.  Demis Roussos sorta clothing. Quite smart.

Greg


----------



## gtopa1

Mindful said:


> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> The ideal solution.
> 
> I bought a couple of these from the souk in Marrakech
> 
> Perfect for hot weather.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All cotton? What are they called
> 
> 
> Greg
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, all cotton kaftans.
> 
> Various styles and colours.
Click to expand...


This would be an eyeopener in Riyadh.






Whoever thought of a see through Burka??






Good grief!!!

Greg


----------



## gtopa1

StLucieBengal said:


> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> I went yesterday to my favourite Turkish cafe for a Gözleme. The woman who cooked it for me wore a head covering. Which contrasted starkly with the girl sitting by the window wearing a backless summer top. No burkhas, but the whole place was full of a contradiction in terms. My beautiful waitress, head covered, but with the most elaborately and seductively made up eyes.
> 
> But, to make the point of alluring concealment.  The women whose bodies were totally covered; those garments clung to every curve.
> 
> What would any normal hot blooded male make of that?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah I guess I am old fashioned.   Just not into ninjas.    I like to see more than just eyes.
> 
> Besides these days you never know .... Could be a tranny under there....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, it could!  ~~~~~
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Worst part about being a Muslim.   Would have to cup check the burkas so make sure what your getting .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> lol. You've been watching....
> 
> 
> Greg
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Better than this ..... Haha
Click to expand...


Are they banned on French beaches?? Bloody banned at my place!!!

Greg


----------



## Mindful

StLucieBengal said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't know guys. The RIGHT burkini looks good to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When you grew up with women in wetsuits out sharing the waves ---- THAT ^^^^ bothers me less than some of the horrors I can't UNSEE from my beach days.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why a burkini when you can have a bikini???   hehe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes please.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I went yesterday to my favourite Turkish cafe for a Gözleme. The woman who cooked it for me wore a head covering. Which contrasted starkly with the girl sitting by the window wearing a backless summer top. No burkhas, but the whole place was full of a contradiction in terms. My beautiful waitress, head covered, but with the most elaborately and seductively made up eyes.
> 
> But, to make the point of alluring concealment.  The women whose bodies were totally covered; those garments clung to every curve.
> 
> What would any normal hot blooded male make of that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah I guess I am old fashioned.   Just not into ninjas.    I like to see more than just eyes.
> 
> Besides these days you never know .... Could be a tranny under there....
Click to expand...


Could also be nothing, like naked.


----------



## gtopa1

Mindful said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't know guys. The RIGHT burkini looks good to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When you grew up with women in wetsuits out sharing the waves ---- THAT ^^^^ bothers me less than some of the horrors I can't UNSEE from my beach days.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why a burkini when you can have a bikini???   hehe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes please.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I went yesterday to my favourite Turkish cafe for a Gözleme. The woman who cooked it for me wore a head covering. Which contrasted starkly with the girl sitting by the window wearing a backless summer top. No burkhas, but the whole place was full of a contradiction in terms. My beautiful waitress, head covered, but with the most elaborately and seductively made up eyes.
> 
> But, to make the point of alluring concealment.  The women whose bodies were totally covered; those garments clung to every curve.
> 
> What would any normal hot blooded male make of that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah I guess I am old fashioned.   Just not into ninjas.    I like to see more than just eyes.
> 
> Besides these days you never know .... Could be a tranny under there....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Could also be nothing, like naked.
Click to expand...







Greg


----------



## gtopa1




----------



## gtopa1

French 007 tells of great escape from Dubai wearing a wetsuit under a burka

Greg


----------



## Mindful

There are also djellabas.


----------



## StLucieBengal

gtopa1 said:


> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> "*Women are being dictated to and squeezed from all sides. *Beyond the strictures of social norms — and they are powerful in many countries — the use of the tools of government to enforce dress codes and standards of appearance is becoming increasingly prevalent in countries where the men in power see their domination and sense of national identity slipping away. And *this is true for the secular left as much as the religious right*."
> 
> 
> 
> Burkini Wars Show What’s Wrong With the Religious Right — and Secular Left
> 
> I do not think there is any clear winner in this contest.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no need for a burka or Burkini.
> 
> It's not flattering and really the only reason it's worn is because Islamic men do not have any self control to not rape women.
> 
> its Islamic men that must change not the women.    Poor women have to dress ridiculously or be raped and assaulted.    Which is Precisely why I would never let any Islamic boy near my daughters.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> From a fashion standpoint the burka and burkini are bullshit.
> 
> From a humanitarian standpoint the burka and burkini are bullshit
> 
> From a religious standpoint the burka and burkini are bullshit
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Bullshit sure is gettin' spread around!!! But remember; it .....
> 
> 
> It was invented in Western Sydney. I see the burkini as a transition garment. Some are quite cute.
> 
> Greg
Click to expand...



Please post a "cute" Burkini?  

They make the woman look like the alien at the end from Prometheus.


----------



## StLucieBengal

Esmeralda said:


>




That is a nice cartoon.   But only one of these two gets violently beaten or sexually assaulted for not being a black ghost.    

Now we know the Muslim migrants are doing their best to rape and sex assault as many Europeans as they possibly can since they have this mindset that anyone not dressed as a black ghost is fair game to rape away.      Children included.    

If we take their animalistic mindset out of the equation then the world is a better place.


----------



## Mindful

We hereby mandate all men wear speedos on the beach.


----------



## Tilly

gtopa1 said:


> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> "*Women are being dictated to and squeezed from all sides. *Beyond the strictures of social norms — and they are powerful in many countries — the use of the tools of government to enforce dress codes and standards of appearance is becoming increasingly prevalent in countries where the men in power see their domination and sense of national identity slipping away. And *this is true for the secular left as much as the religious right*."
> 
> 
> 
> Burkini Wars Show What’s Wrong With the Religious Right — and Secular Left
> 
> I do not think there is any clear winner in this contest.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no need for a burka or Burkini.
> 
> It's not flattering and really the only reason it's worn is because Islamic men do not have any self control to not rape women.
> 
> its Islamic men that must change not the women.    Poor women have to dress ridiculously or be raped and assaulted.    Which is Precisely why I would never let any Islamic boy near my daughters.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> From a fashion standpoint the burka and burkini are bullshit.
> 
> From a humanitarian standpoint the burka and burkini are bullshit
> 
> From a religious standpoint the burka and burkini are bullshit
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Bullshit sure is gettin' spread around!!! But remember; it .....
> 
> 
> It was invented in Western Sydney. I see the burkini as a transition garment. Some are quite cute.
> 
> Greg
Click to expand...

Why do you see it as a transition garment? Is there any evidence of this?
Also, a few days ago I read an article by a Muslim woman who said the burqini garment was worn in Egypt before the name was trademarked by a Muslim woman in Australia.


----------



## Tilly

StLucieBengal said:


> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is a nice cartoon.   But only one of these two gets violently beaten or sexually assaulted for not being a black ghost.
> 
> Now we know the Muslim migrants are doing their best to rape and sex assault as many Europeans as they possibly can since they have this mindset that anyone not dressed as a black ghost is fair game to rape away.      Children included.
> 
> If we take their animalistic mindset out of the equation then the world is a better place.
Click to expand...

Also, there are perfectly modest examples of clothing items that are modest, at neither end of the 'extremes' depicted in the pic, and which don't advertise ones religion, which is what secular France objects to.


----------



## Tilly

Mindful said:


> There are also djellabas.


Do they swim in them?


----------



## Mindful

Tilly said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are also djellabas.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do they swim in them?
Click to expand...


I don't think so.


----------



## Coyote

Mindful said:


> We hereby mandate all men wear speedos on the beach.


----------



## ChrisL

gtopa1 said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why a burkini when you can have a bikini???   hehe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes please.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I went yesterday to my favourite Turkish cafe for a Gözleme. The woman who cooked it for me wore a head covering. Which contrasted starkly with the girl sitting by the window wearing a backless summer top. No burkhas, but the whole place was full of a contradiction in terms. My beautiful waitress, head covered, but with the most elaborately and seductively made up eyes.
> 
> But, to make the point of alluring concealment.  The women whose bodies were totally covered; those garments clung to every curve.
> 
> What would any normal hot blooded male make of that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah I guess I am old fashioned.   Just not into ninjas.    I like to see more than just eyes.
> 
> Besides these days you never know .... Could be a tranny under there....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Could also be nothing, like naked.
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Greg
Click to expand...


Mini burkas.  Lol!  Too funny!


----------



## ChrisL

gtopa1 said:


> French 007 tells of great escape from Dubai wearing a wetsuit under a burka
> 
> Greg



Wow!  Fascinating.


----------



## ChrisL

I think the fact that they have burkinis and are no longer going to the beach in the full burka means they are making some progress.  If we go and start banning them, then we are just pushing them away, IMO.  These are the kinds of things that can't be "hurried along."


----------



## ChrisL

Coyote said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> We hereby mandate all men wear speedos on the beach.
Click to expand...


Lol!


----------



## StLucieBengal

ChrisL said:


> I think the fact that they have burkinis and are no longer going to the beach in the full burka means they are making some progress.  If we go and start banning them, then we are just pushing them away, IMO.  These are the kinds of things that can't be "hurried along."




Just send them to coyote's modest swimwear shops.    According to her they are the same....    So they don't need the burka or Burkini.


----------



## ChrisL

StLucieBengal said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the fact that they have burkinis and are no longer going to the beach in the full burka means they are making some progress.  If we go and start banning them, then we are just pushing them away, IMO.  These are the kinds of things that can't be "hurried along."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just send them to coyote's modest swimwear shops.    According to her they are the same....    So they don't need the burka or Burkini.
Click to expand...


This doesn't address my post.  The fact that they actually have swimwear means they are coming along.  Why ruin that?  Besides, I don't know how they do things in France, but America is a free country.  Yes, some women would choose to wear them at the beach.  They really don't look much different than a wet suit.


----------



## StLucieBengal

ChrisL said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the fact that they have burkinis and are no longer going to the beach in the full burka means they are making some progress.  If we go and start banning them, then we are just pushing them away, IMO.  These are the kinds of things that can't be "hurried along."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just send them to coyote's modest swimwear shops.    According to her they are the same....    So they don't need the burka or Burkini.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This doesn't address my post.  The fact that they actually have swimwear means they are coming along.  Why ruin that?  Besides, I don't know how they do things in France, but America is a free country.  Yes, some women would choose to wear them at the beach.  They really don't look much different than a wet suit.
Click to expand...


So why don't they just wear a wetsuit?  

This has been my whole argument.... We already have several alternatives so we don't need promote some new garmet.


----------



## ChrisL

StLucieBengal said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the fact that they have burkinis and are no longer going to the beach in the full burka means they are making some progress.  If we go and start banning them, then we are just pushing them away, IMO.  These are the kinds of things that can't be "hurried along."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just send them to coyote's modest swimwear shops.    According to her they are the same....    So they don't need the burka or Burkini.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This doesn't address my post.  The fact that they actually have swimwear means they are coming along.  Why ruin that?  Besides, I don't know how they do things in France, but America is a free country.  Yes, some women would choose to wear them at the beach.  They really don't look much different than a wet suit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So why don't they just wear a wetsuit?
> 
> This has been my whole argument.... We already have several alternatives so we don't need promote some new garmet.
Click to expand...


Because they want something a little more feminine, I guess.  There are always "new garments."  Talk about making a mountain out of a mole hill, seriously.  What must it be like to be so worried about what other people are wearing?


----------



## StLucieBengal

ChrisL said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the fact that they have burkinis and are no longer going to the beach in the full burka means they are making some progress.  If we go and start banning them, then we are just pushing them away, IMO.  These are the kinds of things that can't be "hurried along."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just send them to coyote's modest swimwear shops.    According to her they are the same....    So they don't need the burka or Burkini.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This doesn't address my post.  The fact that they actually have swimwear means they are coming along.  Why ruin that?  Besides, I don't know how they do things in France, but America is a free country.  Yes, some women would choose to wear them at the beach.  They really don't look much different than a wet suit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So why don't they just wear a wetsuit?
> 
> This has been my whole argument.... We already have several alternatives so we don't need promote some new garmet.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because they want something a little more feminine, I guess.  There are always "new garments."  Talk about making a mountain out of a mole hill, seriously.  What must it be like to be so worried about what other people are wearing?
Click to expand...



I don't care if others want to live a subservient life.     But I don't want to live in a place where my daughters grow up thinking this is how anyone is supposed to or should live.


----------



## ChrisL

StLucieBengal said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the fact that they have burkinis and are no longer going to the beach in the full burka means they are making some progress.  If we go and start banning them, then we are just pushing them away, IMO.  These are the kinds of things that can't be "hurried along."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just send them to coyote's modest swimwear shops.    According to her they are the same....    So they don't need the burka or Burkini.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This doesn't address my post.  The fact that they actually have swimwear means they are coming along.  Why ruin that?  Besides, I don't know how they do things in France, but America is a free country.  Yes, some women would choose to wear them at the beach.  They really don't look much different than a wet suit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So why don't they just wear a wetsuit?
> 
> This has been my whole argument.... We already have several alternatives so we don't need promote some new garmet.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because they want something a little more feminine, I guess.  There are always "new garments."  Talk about making a mountain out of a mole hill, seriously.  What must it be like to be so worried about what other people are wearing?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I don't care if others want to live a subservient life.     But I don't want to live in a place where my daughters grow up thinking this is how anyone is supposed to or should live.
Click to expand...


Your daughters will grow up in the manner in which YOU raise them and doing what they feel is the right thing to do for themselves.


----------



## gtopa1

StLucieBengal said:


> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is a nice cartoon.   But only one of these two gets violently beaten or sexually assaulted for not being a black ghost.
> 
> Now we know the Muslim migrants are doing their best to rape and sex assault as many Europeans as they possibly can since they have this mindset that anyone not dressed as a black ghost is fair game to rape away.      Children included.
> 
> If we take their animalistic mindset out of the equation then the world is a better place.
Click to expand...


The other gets violently beaten or sexually assaulted for being in clothes that were "asking for it" in Western scenarios. I'm totally for getting the violence out of the mindset of subhuman a-holes who are a very small minority of males. 

Cute burkini?






















Probably more depends on the wearer. Mind you: the headwear is a bit unflattering. 

Greg


----------



## gtopa1

Tilly said:


> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> "*Women are being dictated to and squeezed from all sides. *Beyond the strictures of social norms — and they are powerful in many countries — the use of the tools of government to enforce dress codes and standards of appearance is becoming increasingly prevalent in countries where the men in power see their domination and sense of national identity slipping away. And *this is true for the secular left as much as the religious right*."
> 
> 
> 
> Burkini Wars Show What’s Wrong With the Religious Right — and Secular Left
> 
> I do not think there is any clear winner in this contest.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no need for a burka or Burkini.
> 
> It's not flattering and really the only reason it's worn is because Islamic men do not have any self control to not rape women.
> 
> its Islamic men that must change not the women.    Poor women have to dress ridiculously or be raped and assaulted.    Which is Precisely why I would never let any Islamic boy near my daughters.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> From a fashion standpoint the burka and burkini are bullshit.
> 
> From a humanitarian standpoint the burka and burkini are bullshit
> 
> From a religious standpoint the burka and burkini are bullshit
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Bullshit sure is gettin' spread around!!! But remember; it .....
> 
> 
> It was invented in Western Sydney. I see the burkini as a transition garment. Some are quite cute.
> 
> Greg
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why do you see it as a transition garment? Is there any evidence of this?
> Also, a few days ago I read an article by a Muslim woman who said the burqini garment was worn in Egypt before the name was trademarked by a Muslim woman in Australia.
Click to expand...


It's not a full burka. I think as a change to something that's less rigid as is a burka then it's a positive development. Plus it's not been artound long. See how far the humble bikini has changed over the years; some are downright pornographic now. 

I think the hat thingy needs a lot of work.






Greg


----------



## gtopa1

Tilly said:


> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> "*Women are being dictated to and squeezed from all sides. *Beyond the strictures of social norms — and they are powerful in many countries — the use of the tools of government to enforce dress codes and standards of appearance is becoming increasingly prevalent in countries where the men in power see their domination and sense of national identity slipping away. And *this is true for the secular left as much as the religious right*."
> 
> 
> 
> Burkini Wars Show What’s Wrong With the Religious Right — and Secular Left
> 
> I do not think there is any clear winner in this contest.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no need for a burka or Burkini.
> 
> It's not flattering and really the only reason it's worn is because Islamic men do not have any self control to not rape women.
> 
> its Islamic men that must change not the women.    Poor women have to dress ridiculously or be raped and assaulted.    Which is Precisely why I would never let any Islamic boy near my daughters.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> From a fashion standpoint the burka and burkini are bullshit.
> 
> From a humanitarian standpoint the burka and burkini are bullshit
> 
> From a religious standpoint the burka and burkini are bullshit
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Bullshit sure is gettin' spread around!!! But remember; it .....
> 
> 
> It was invented in Western Sydney. I see the burkini as a transition garment. Some are quite cute.
> 
> Greg
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why do you see it as a transition garment? Is there any evidence of this?
> Also, a few days ago I read an article by a Muslim woman who said the burqini garment was worn in Egypt before the name was trademarked by a Muslim woman in Australia.
Click to expand...


Who knows? Someone bought the trademark to the old "Ug" boots so it may have been one of those commercial things. But we're used to adopting success. 

Greg


----------



## gtopa1

ChrisL said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> We hereby mandate all men wear speedos on the beach.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Lol!
Click to expand...


You call that a budgie smuggler???





Now THAT's a budgie smuggler!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No: not me!! a guy called "wobbly" maybe....

Greg


----------



## gtopa1

StLucieBengal said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the fact that they have burkinis and are no longer going to the beach in the full burka means they are making some progress.  If we go and start banning them, then we are just pushing them away, IMO.  These are the kinds of things that can't be "hurried along."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just send them to coyote's modest swimwear shops.    According to her they are the same....    So they don't need the burka or Burkini.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This doesn't address my post.  The fact that they actually have swimwear means they are coming along.  Why ruin that?  Besides, I don't know how they do things in France, but America is a free country.  Yes, some women would choose to wear them at the beach.  They really don't look much different than a wet suit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So why don't they just wear a wetsuit?
> 
> This has been my whole argument.... We already have several alternatives so we don't need promote some new garmet.
Click to expand...


It might help our balance of trade.  Oil for Burkinis??

Greg


----------



## gtopa1

StLucieBengal said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the fact that they have burkinis and are no longer going to the beach in the full burka means they are making some progress.  If we go and start banning them, then we are just pushing them away, IMO.  These are the kinds of things that can't be "hurried along."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just send them to coyote's modest swimwear shops.    According to her they are the same....    So they don't need the burka or Burkini.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This doesn't address my post.  The fact that they actually have swimwear means they are coming along.  Why ruin that?  Besides, I don't know how they do things in France, but America is a free country.  Yes, some women would choose to wear them at the beach.  They really don't look much different than a wet suit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So why don't they just wear a wetsuit?
> 
> This has been my whole argument.... We already have several alternatives so we don't need promote some new garmet.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because they want something a little more feminine, I guess.  There are always "new garments."  Talk about making a mountain out of a mole hill, seriously.  What must it be like to be so worried about what other people are wearing?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I don't care if others want to live a subservient life.     But I don't want to live in a place where my daughters grow up thinking this is how anyone is supposed to or should live.
Click to expand...


I think Muslim women are getting over the "Males Matter" crap. Especially the more they interact with the West. Not that there's anything wrong with modesty. 

Greg


----------



## gtopa1

Oh wait!!






Bugger!!!

Greg


----------



## flacaltenn

Still doing beachware huh? 

Lemme show you how terribly misogynistic it is to require women to cover up when enjoying the waves. 






No that is not a seal escaping a Great White.... That's an American girl liberating herself from the bondage of being fully clothed at the beach...


----------



## StLucieBengal

gtopa1 said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is a nice cartoon.   But only one of these two gets violently beaten or sexually assaulted for not being a black ghost.
> 
> Now we know the Muslim migrants are doing their best to rape and sex assault as many Europeans as they possibly can since they have this mindset that anyone not dressed as a black ghost is fair game to rape away.      Children included.
> 
> If we take their animalistic mindset out of the equation then the world is a better place.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The other gets violently beaten or sexually assaulted for being in clothes that were "asking for it" in Western scenarios. I'm totally for getting the violence out of the mindset of subhuman a-holes who are a very small minority of males.
> 
> Cute burkini?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Probably more depends on the wearer. Mind you: the headwear is a bit unflattering.
> 
> Greg
Click to expand...


1 and 3 look like the alien from Prometheus.    

Not even sure what #2 is so I won't comment.    Also that cartoon .... Lol

The rest are fine.   There is no need for the head gear.  

#'s 4,6,7,8 all seem appropriate.    I wouldn't have any issue with them.    Looks no different than what the Jews wear.


----------



## StLucieBengal

gtopa1 said:


> Tilly said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alex. said:
> 
> 
> 
> "*Women are being dictated to and squeezed from all sides. *Beyond the strictures of social norms — and they are powerful in many countries — the use of the tools of government to enforce dress codes and standards of appearance is becoming increasingly prevalent in countries where the men in power see their domination and sense of national identity slipping away. And *this is true for the secular left as much as the religious right*."
> 
> 
> 
> Burkini Wars Show What’s Wrong With the Religious Right — and Secular Left
> 
> I do not think there is any clear winner in this contest.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no need for a burka or Burkini.
> 
> It's not flattering and really the only reason it's worn is because Islamic men do not have any self control to not rape women.
> 
> its Islamic men that must change not the women.    Poor women have to dress ridiculously or be raped and assaulted.    Which is Precisely why I would never let any Islamic boy near my daughters.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> From a fashion standpoint the burka and burkini are bullshit.
> 
> From a humanitarian standpoint the burka and burkini are bullshit
> 
> From a religious standpoint the burka and burkini are bullshit
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Bullshit sure is gettin' spread around!!! But remember; it .....
> 
> 
> It was invented in Western Sydney. I see the burkini as a transition garment. Some are quite cute.
> 
> Greg
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why do you see it as a transition garment? Is there any evidence of this?
> Also, a few days ago I read an article by a Muslim woman who said the burqini garment was worn in Egypt before the name was trademarked by a Muslim woman in Australia.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's not a full burka. I think as a change to something that's less rigid as is a burka then it's a positive development. Plus it's not been artound long. See how far the humble bikini has changed over the years; some are downright pornographic now.
> 
> I think the hat thingy needs a lot of work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Greg
Click to expand...



The head piece on all these aren't necessary.


----------



## StLucieBengal

gtopa1 said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just send them to coyote's modest swimwear shops.    According to her they are the same....    So they don't need the burka or Burkini.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This doesn't address my post.  The fact that they actually have swimwear means they are coming along.  Why ruin that?  Besides, I don't know how they do things in France, but America is a free country.  Yes, some women would choose to wear them at the beach.  They really don't look much different than a wet suit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So why don't they just wear a wetsuit?
> 
> This has been my whole argument.... We already have several alternatives so we don't need promote some new garmet.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because they want something a little more feminine, I guess.  There are always "new garments."  Talk about making a mountain out of a mole hill, seriously.  What must it be like to be so worried about what other people are wearing?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I don't care if others want to live a subservient life.     But I don't want to live in a place where my daughters grow up thinking this is how anyone is supposed to or should live.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think Muslim women are getting over the "Males Matter" crap. Especially the more they interact with the West. Not that there's anything wrong with modesty.
> 
> Greg
Click to expand...



Doesn't matter.    I don't think we need to be a place that allows women to be oppressed.    The only thing anyone should feel for a Muslim woman is The same way we see victims of domestic violence.


----------



## StLucieBengal

flacaltenn said:


> Still doing beachware huh?
> 
> Lemme show you how terribly misogynistic it is to require women to cover up when enjoying the waves.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No that is not a seal escaping a Great White.... That's an American girl liberating herself from the bondage of being fully clothed at the beach...




So why aren't the Muslims just wearing these?    Oh that's right they can't it's too tight .....    By wearing this they put themselves at risk for a beating, rape, or honour killing.


----------



## flacaltenn

StLucieBengal said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Still doing beachware huh?
> 
> Lemme show you how terribly misogynistic it is to require women to cover up when enjoying the waves.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No that is not a seal escaping a Great White.... That's an American girl liberating herself from the bondage of being fully clothed at the beach...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So why aren't the Muslims just wearing these?    Oh that's right they can't it's too tight .....    By wearing this they put themselves at risk for a beating, rape, or honour killing.
Click to expand...


Not in a truly free country they don't.  It's hard to FORCE immodesty on women. And it's actually ugly. Best to assure them they WILL BE PROTECTED in those choices according to the EXISTING law. That's what adaptation needs to be.  If only ONE person is happy with freedom and choices in a marriage or a family, then maybe some independence should be declared. 

Especially if they see that their RELIGION will support them in any non-legal abusive situation. And *westernized* Muslim practices are NOT offensive or even odd. It's the CULTURE that has to be shed.


----------



## ChrisL

flacaltenn said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Still doing beachware huh?
> 
> Lemme show you how terribly misogynistic it is to require women to cover up when enjoying the waves.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No that is not a seal escaping a Great White.... That's an American girl liberating herself from the bondage of being fully clothed at the beach...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So why aren't the Muslims just wearing these?    Oh that's right they can't it's too tight .....    By wearing this they put themselves at risk for a beating, rape, or honour killing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not in a truly free country they don't.  It's hard to FORCE immodesty on women. And it's actually ugly. Best to assure them they WILL BE PROTECTED in those choices according to the EXISTING law. That's what adaptation needs to be.  If only ONE person is happy with freedom and choices in a marriage or a family, then maybe some independence should be declared.
> 
> Especially if they see that their RELIGION will support them in any non-legal abusive situation. And *westernized* Muslim practices are NOT offensive or even odd. It's the CULTURE that has to be shed.
Click to expand...


Well, one could say that the religion is definitely a part of the culture.


----------



## flacaltenn

ChrisL said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Still doing beachware huh?
> 
> Lemme show you how terribly misogynistic it is to require women to cover up when enjoying the waves.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No that is not a seal escaping a Great White.... That's an American girl liberating herself from the bondage of being fully clothed at the beach...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So why aren't the Muslims just wearing these?    Oh that's right they can't it's too tight .....    By wearing this they put themselves at risk for a beating, rape, or honour killing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not in a truly free country they don't.  It's hard to FORCE immodesty on women. And it's actually ugly. Best to assure them they WILL BE PROTECTED in those choices according to the EXISTING law. That's what adaptation needs to be.  If only ONE person is happy with freedom and choices in a marriage or a family, then maybe some independence should be declared.
> 
> Especially if they see that their RELIGION will support them in any non-legal abusive situation. And *westernized* Muslim practices are NOT offensive or even odd. It's the CULTURE that has to be shed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, one could say that the religion is definitely a part of the culture.
Click to expand...


The religion is the portable part. The culture - especially the LEGAL side of it and the INTOLERANCE -  should never be ported.. 

No one gets accosted in a US mosque for how they live outside the mosque. They might be "lectured" and "encouraged" to maintain orthodoxy --- but there is literally no means to enforce it --- if you don't allow a parallel legal system to develop. And if you make sure that everyone knows --- abuse and physical harm will not be tolerated.


----------



## ChrisL

flacaltenn said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Still doing beachware huh?
> 
> Lemme show you how terribly misogynistic it is to require women to cover up when enjoying the waves.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No that is not a seal escaping a Great White.... That's an American girl liberating herself from the bondage of being fully clothed at the beach...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So why aren't the Muslims just wearing these?    Oh that's right they can't it's too tight .....    By wearing this they put themselves at risk for a beating, rape, or honour killing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not in a truly free country they don't.  It's hard to FORCE immodesty on women. And it's actually ugly. Best to assure them they WILL BE PROTECTED in those choices according to the EXISTING law. That's what adaptation needs to be.  If only ONE person is happy with freedom and choices in a marriage or a family, then maybe some independence should be declared.
> 
> Especially if they see that their RELIGION will support them in any non-legal abusive situation. And *westernized* Muslim practices are NOT offensive or even odd. It's the CULTURE that has to be shed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The religion is the portable part. The culture - especially the LEGAL side of it and the INTOLERANCE -  should never be ported..
> 
> No one gets accosted in a US mosque for how they live outside the mosque. They might be "lectured" and "encouraged" to maintain orthodoxy --- but there is literally no means to enforce it --- if you don't allow a parallel legal system to develop. And if you make sure that everyone knows --- abuse and physical harm will not be tolerated.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, part of religion IS intolerance if you think about it.
Click to expand...


----------



## ChrisL

^^^

Sorry, I don't know what happened there in that post.  I said I think intolerance is kind of a part of religious belief systems.


----------



## StLucieBengal

flacaltenn said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Still doing beachware huh?
> 
> Lemme show you how terribly misogynistic it is to require women to cover up when enjoying the waves.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No that is not a seal escaping a Great White.... That's an American girl liberating herself from the bondage of being fully clothed at the beach...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So why aren't the Muslims just wearing these?    Oh that's right they can't it's too tight .....    By wearing this they put themselves at risk for a beating, rape, or honour killing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not in a truly free country they don't.  It's hard to FORCE immodesty on women. And it's actually ugly. Best to assure them they WILL BE PROTECTED in those choices according to the EXISTING law. That's what adaptation needs to be.  If only ONE person is happy with freedom and choices in a marriage or a family, then maybe some independence should be declared.
> 
> Especially if they see that their RELIGION will support them in any non-legal abusive situation. And *westernized* Muslim practices are NOT offensive or even odd. It's the CULTURE that has to be shed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, one could say that the religion is definitely a part of the culture.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The religion is the portable part. The culture - especially the LEGAL side of it and the INTOLERANCE -  should never be ported..
> 
> No one gets accosted in a US mosque for how they live outside the mosque. They might be "lectured" and "encouraged" to maintain orthodoxy --- but there is literally no means to enforce it --- if you don't allow a parallel legal system to develop. And if you make sure that everyone knows --- abuse and physical harm will not be tolerated.
Click to expand...


Then why were the Muslims pushing for sharia panels in Dallas and other parts of the country?    

This is why we need to stop acting like these people are just wonderful.


----------



## Mindful

gtopa1 said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> We hereby mandate all men wear speedos on the beach.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Lol!
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You call that a budgie smuggler???
> 
> View attachment 88105
> 
> Now THAT's a budgie smuggler!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> No: not me!! a guy called "wobbly" maybe....
> 
> Greg
Click to expand...



lol


----------



## gtopa1

StLucieBengal said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Still doing beachware huh?
> 
> Lemme show you how terribly misogynistic it is to require women to cover up when enjoying the waves.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No that is not a seal escaping a Great White.... That's an American girl liberating herself from the bondage of being fully clothed at the beach...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So why aren't the Muslims just wearing these?    Oh that's right they can't it's too tight .....    By wearing this they put themselves at risk for a beating, rape, or honour killing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not in a truly free country they don't.  It's hard to FORCE immodesty on women. And it's actually ugly. Best to assure them they WILL BE PROTECTED in those choices according to the EXISTING law. That's what adaptation needs to be.  If only ONE person is happy with freedom and choices in a marriage or a family, then maybe some independence should be declared.
> 
> Especially if they see that their RELIGION will support them in any non-legal abusive situation. And *westernized* Muslim practices are NOT offensive or even odd. It's the CULTURE that has to be shed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, one could say that the religion is definitely a part of the culture.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The religion is the portable part. The culture - especially the LEGAL side of it and the INTOLERANCE -  should never be ported..
> 
> No one gets accosted in a US mosque for how they live outside the mosque. They might be "lectured" and "encouraged" to maintain orthodoxy --- but there is literally no means to enforce it --- if you don't allow a parallel legal system to develop. And if you make sure that everyone knows --- abuse and physical harm will not be tolerated.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then why were the Muslims pushing for sharia panels in Dallas and other parts of the country?
> 
> This is why we need to stop acting like these people are just wonderful.
Click to expand...


Who says they're wonderful?? There are different issues at stake. If there is coercion and violence then there are already Laws to deal with that, They're called "assault" among other things. And you should see aspects of the Family Law act that are over here, and I'm sure also in the States. Flaca's quite right. Mussie bloke need to be aware that what might be "covered up" by resorting to some bullshit from a freak Imam is NOT acceptable if it is against the Law of the Land. Spousal abuse is already against the Law.

Greg


----------



## Mindful

Wet suits, burkinis, etc, are considered to be unhygienic, particularly in communal swimming pools, because of the chemicals in the fabric.

My daughters were kicked out of a mixed sauna once, for  wearing swimsuits.


----------



## gtopa1

Mindful said:


> Wet suits, burkinis, etc, are considered to be unhygienic, particularly in communal swimming pools, because of the chemicals in the fabric.
> 
> My daughters were kicked out of a mixed sauna once, for  wearing swimsuits.



I don't like saunas. Too hot.

Greg


----------



## Mindful

gtopa1 said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wet suits, burkinis, etc, are considered to be unhygienic, particularly in communal swimming pools, because of the chemicals in the fabric.
> 
> My daughters were kicked out of a mixed sauna once, for  wearing swimsuits.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't like saunas. Too hot.
> 
> Greg
Click to expand...


I found it boring. All those rituals.

It's a kind of cult thing in Europe.


----------



## gtopa1

Mindful said:


> Wet suits, burkinis, etc, are considered to be unhygienic, particularly in communal swimming pools, because of the chemicals in the fabric.
> 
> My daughters were kicked out of a mixed sauna once, for  wearing swimsuits.



I am puzzled by this. Is that pool chemicals in the fabric that when vaporised might become toxic? You sure they just weren't Tommy Tainteds and his "show the boys...." brigade?

Greg


----------



## gtopa1

Mindful said:


> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wet suits, burkinis, etc, are considered to be unhygienic, particularly in communal swimming pools, because of the chemicals in the fabric.
> 
> My daughters were kicked out of a mixed sauna once, for  wearing swimsuits.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't like saunas. Too hot.
> 
> Greg
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I found it boring. All those rituals.
> 
> It's a kind of cult thing in Europe.
Click to expand...


Rituals? My brother had one in his backyard in Sydney. The only ritual he ever had was going to Ballymore when he lived in Brissie. (Rugby of course)

Greg


----------



## ThirdTerm

(CNN) A court in Nice suspended the city's burkini ban, citing insufficient grounds to justify the controversial decree. In the ruling Thursday, judges from Nice's administrative tribunal court said the full-length swimsuit worn by some Muslim women did not pose a risk to public order on the French Riviera city's beaches.

The case was brought by the Collective Against Islamophobia -- a group of human rights activists who have been helping a number of women challenge fines. They argued that the ban is discriminatory, unconstitutional and that there has been no evidence to suggest that wearing a burkini has contributed to any acts of public disorder.

Burkini ban in Nice overturned by French court - CNN.com

France's top administrative court has overturned a town burkini ban last month. The ruling by the Council of State specifically concerns a ban in the Riviera town of Villeneuve-Loubet. But the binding decision is expected to set a legal precedent for all the 30 or so French resort municipalities that have issued similar decrees, which was why a Nice court suspended the city's burkini ban.


----------



## StLucieBengal

ThirdTerm said:


> (CNN) A court in Nice suspended the city's burkini ban, citing insufficient grounds to justify the controversial decree. In the ruling Thursday, judges from Nice's administrative tribunal court said the full-length swimsuit worn by some Muslim women did not pose a risk to public order on the French Riviera city's beaches.
> 
> The case was brought by the Collective Against Islamophobia -- a group of human rights activists who have been helping a number of women challenge fines. They argued that the ban is discriminatory, unconstitutional and that there has been no evidence to suggest that wearing a burkini has contributed to any acts of public disorder.
> 
> Burkini ban in Nice overturned by French court - CNN.com



That's only 1 of 31.


----------



## Mindful

gtopa1 said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wet suits, burkinis, etc, are considered to be unhygienic, particularly in communal swimming pools, because of the chemicals in the fabric.
> 
> My daughters were kicked out of a mixed sauna once, for  wearing swimsuits.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am puzzled by this. Is that pool chemicals in the fabric that when vaporised might become toxic? You sure they just weren't Tommy Tainteds and his "show the boys...." brigade?
> 
> Greg
Click to expand...


Something like that.

And there are chemicals in the synthetic swimming garments.

Nude is the way to go, for the health of the planet.



I must remember to ask Wobs  if he wears speedos. lol


----------



## gtopa1

Mindful said:


> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wet suits, burkinis, etc, are considered to be unhygienic, particularly in communal swimming pools, because of the chemicals in the fabric.
> 
> My daughters were kicked out of a mixed sauna once, for  wearing swimsuits.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am puzzled by this. Is that pool chemicals in the fabric that when vaporised might become toxic? You sure they just weren't Tommy Tainteds and his "show the boys...." brigade?
> 
> Greg
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Something like that.
> 
> And there are chemicals in the synthetic swimming garments.
> 
> Nude is the way to go, for the health of the planet.
> 
> 
> 
> I must remember to ask Wobs  if he wears speedos. lol
Click to expand...


There are EarthmotherSauniacs??? Crazy!!!

I prefer my theory;TTs.

Greg


----------



## Mindful

gtopa1 said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gtopa1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wet suits, burkinis, etc, are considered to be unhygienic, particularly in communal swimming pools, because of the chemicals in the fabric.
> 
> My daughters were kicked out of a mixed sauna once, for  wearing swimsuits.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am puzzled by this. Is that pool chemicals in the fabric that when vaporised might become toxic? You sure they just weren't Tommy Tainteds and his "show the boys...." brigade?
> 
> Greg
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Something like that.
> 
> And there are chemicals in the synthetic swimming garments.
> 
> Nude is the way to go, for the health of the planet.
> 
> 
> 
> I must remember to ask Wobs  if he wears speedos. lol
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There are EarthmotherSauniacs??? Crazy!!!
> 
> I prefer my theory;TTs.
> 
> Greg
Click to expand...


Is he back yet?


----------



## ChrisL

gtopa1 said:


> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> StLucieBengal said:
> 
> 
> 
> So why aren't the Muslims just wearing these?    Oh that's right they can't it's too tight .....    By wearing this they put themselves at risk for a beating, rape, or honour killing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not in a truly free country they don't.  It's hard to FORCE immodesty on women. And it's actually ugly. Best to assure them they WILL BE PROTECTED in those choices according to the EXISTING law. That's what adaptation needs to be.  If only ONE person is happy with freedom and choices in a marriage or a family, then maybe some independence should be declared.
> 
> Especially if they see that their RELIGION will support them in any non-legal abusive situation. And *westernized* Muslim practices are NOT offensive or even odd. It's the CULTURE that has to be shed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, one could say that the religion is definitely a part of the culture.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The religion is the portable part. The culture - especially the LEGAL side of it and the INTOLERANCE -  should never be ported..
> 
> No one gets accosted in a US mosque for how they live outside the mosque. They might be "lectured" and "encouraged" to maintain orthodoxy --- but there is literally no means to enforce it --- if you don't allow a parallel legal system to develop. And if you make sure that everyone knows --- abuse and physical harm will not be tolerated.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then why were the Muslims pushing for sharia panels in Dallas and other parts of the country?
> 
> This is why we need to stop acting like these people are just wonderful.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who says they're wonderful?? There are different issues at stake. If there is coercion and violence then there are already Laws to deal with that, They're called "assault" among other things. And you should see aspects of the Family Law act that are over here, and I'm sure also in the States. Flaca's quite right. Mussie bloke need to be aware that what might be "covered up" by resorting to some bullshit from a freak Imam is NOT acceptable if it is against the Law of the Land. Spousal abuse is already against the Law.
> 
> Greg
Click to expand...


I agree.  I sure am not into coddling them.  But forcing them to wear something (or not to wear something) is taking things a step too far, IMO.  I don't know about France, but that is really not acceptable here in the US.  People wear what they want to wear (within reasonable limitations of course).


----------



## flacaltenn

ChrisL said:


> ^^^
> 
> Sorry, I don't know what happened there in that post.  I said I think intolerance is kind of a part of religious belief systems.



In the Orthodox forms all religions have some type of intolerance towards SOME kinds of people. In western societies, those orthodoxies are moderated by culture and law. So the successful westernized religions have developed reform movements that offer levels of "purity" for the scriptural implementations of religious code.

The only way those intolerances remain,  is in cultures that allow religious law to be enforced by the state. OR -- by isolating themselves physically from the state and the rest of the populace.

There's the goal for immigration from these abusive cultures. Don't condone those 2 things. And you can measure how well this reform and adaptation is taking hold by surveying the individual places of worship and talking to their leadership. Those channels have to remain open in order to assess any risk or danger from radicalized views.

I can't fathom fighting intolerance by using the power of state to BE intolerant. Makes no sense at all.
I can understand limiting immigration from these diseased cultures to the amount we can monitor for successful adaptation.


----------



## flacaltenn

Mindful said:


> Wet suits, burkinis, etc, are considered to be unhygienic, particularly in communal swimming pools, because of the chemicals in the fabric.
> 
> My daughters were kicked out of a mixed sauna once, for  wearing swimsuits.



For a sauna -- a lot of swimsuits bleed the dyes under heat and humidity. Stains the very expensive wooden benches and towels..  You don't know which suits will cause problems -- so you ban them all and hand out towels.


----------



## flacaltenn

I seem to remember when the LAW said -- all women had to wear bathing caps in swimming pools. Even if the guys had hair LONGER than the women -- they were exempt.

That was a SECULAR law abuse.  Isn't it?  Law can be dingy and unfair whether it's religious or not.


----------



## skye

Sad but true.


----------



## Mindful

flacaltenn said:


> I seem to remember when the LAW said -- all women had to wear bathing caps in swimming pools. Even if the guys had hair LONGER than the women -- they were exempt.
> 
> That was a SECULAR law abuse.  Isn't it?  Law can be dingy and unfair whether it's religious or not.



I thought the rationale for wearing bathing caps was for not to get one's hair wet.

Though I seem to vaguely remember an issue to do with hygiene also.


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## Mindful




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## Mindful

More rules and regulations:

Do I need a towel in saunas in Germany?


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## Mindful

It’s hijab vu all over again.

Each “new” Muslim regalia hoo-ha—this week, it’s the French burkini battle—makes me feel like I’m trapped in Turkish _Groundhog Day_. You lucky Americans haven’t been screaming at each other about Islam’s wearable trash bags for anywhere near as long as we Canadians.

By the way, do you know what it said on the ticket the cops gave the Muslima on the beach? She was cited for not wearing “an outfit respecting good morals and secularism.”

Hooray…?

Okay, maybe something got lost in translation. Then again, topless women _have_ been France’s symbol for (their peculiarly Gallic notion of) “liberté” since Marianne. 

That’s likely what inspired this droll post at _The Daily Bonnet_, the _Onion_ of Anabaptists:

French Police Arrest Mennonite Women for “Not Dressing Sexy Enough” at the Beach

Before you laugh (or after you do), remember:

Today’s satire is tomorrow’s social policy.

A Faulty Cloaking Device


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## ChrisL

flacaltenn said:


> ChrisL said:
> 
> 
> 
> ^^^
> 
> Sorry, I don't know what happened there in that post.  I said I think intolerance is kind of a part of religious belief systems.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the Orthodox forms all religions have some type of intolerance towards SOME kinds of people. In western societies, those orthodoxies are moderated by culture and law. So the successful westernized religions have developed reform movements that offer levels of "purity" for the scriptural implementations of religious code.
> 
> The only way those intolerances remain,  is in cultures that allow religious law to be enforced by the state. OR -- by isolating themselves physically from the state and the rest of the populace.
> 
> There's the goal for immigration from these abusive cultures. Don't condone those 2 things. And you can measure how well this reform and adaptation is taking hold by surveying the individual places of worship and talking to their leadership. Those channels have to remain open in order to assess any risk or danger from radicalized views.
> 
> I can't fathom fighting intolerance by using the power of state to BE intolerant. Makes no sense at all.
> I can understand limiting immigration from these diseased cultures to the amount we can monitor for successful adaptation.
Click to expand...


Yes, well I've heard religious people (and these are your moderate Christians living here in America) say that the laws of their God outweigh any of mankind's laws.  So there is that.


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## sealybobo

StLucieBengal said:


>


I like what Germany said to Muslims about swimming in their pools. For cleanliness you have to wear a swimsuit after you've taken a shower. You can't wear that in the pool. It's not sanitary. Sorry rules are rules.


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## Mindful

Women in Iran, protesting the compulsory wearing of the Hijab, 1979.


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## StLucieBengal

They have gone backwards.  

Syria


Iran


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