# 9/11: What really happened on that day?



## phoenyx (Jul 9, 2016)

There have been threads in this forum that address the general issue of what happened on 9/11. That being said, I have found that a lot of them are not neutral in their title- their titles imply that they are either for or against an official narrative. I started a thread with the same title as this one in another forum and after over 1000 posts, I think it's been fairly successful. Not sure if it'll work out here, but I thought I'd give it a go. I'll start by responding to someone who asked me to outline my view of what happened on 9/11 and who was behind it...

I've heard many theories as to what happened at the World Trade Center. As to the general outline of what happened on 9/11, I think I'll start with the general outline of both the official narrative of events, as well as the generally accepted outline of what those who disagree with it is, as outlined in a documentary film called Zeitgeist...

***
_19 hijackers, directed by Osama Bin Laden, took over 4 commercial jets
with box cutters and, while evading the Air Defense System (NORAD), hit
75% of their targets. In turn, World Trade Towers 1, 2 & 7 collapsed due
to structural failure through fire in a "pancake" fashion, while the
plane that hit the Pentagon vaporized upon impact, as did the plane
that crashed in Shanksville. The 911 Commission found that there were
no warnings for this act of terrorism, while multiple government
failures prevented adequate defense._
***

I would like to ask anyone who sides with the official narrative if they essentially agree with this narrative.

As to what I believe, this is exemplified by the concluding statement of Zeitgeist in its 9/11 section:
***
_Criminal Elements within the US government staged a "false flag" rerror
attack on its own citizens, in order to manipulate public perception
into supporting its agenda.

They have been doing these for years.

9/11 was an Inside Job._
***

For anyone considering responding to this thread for the first time, I ask that you consider briefly pointing out what you think happened on 9/11; it can be as simple as stating that you believe in one of the 2 summaries outlined above, or it can be more detailed. At that point, I will endeavour to comment on your entry, and explain why I agree or disagree with your point of view.


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## irosie91 (Jul 9, 2016)

you made it too long to go POINT BY POINT-----I will note that I never heard that the PLANES VAPORIZED -------it seems logical to me that the one embedded in the PENTAGON was cordoned off and off limits to casual onlookers------nor were tourists permitted to visit the pentagon HOLE IN THE WALL-----and the one that crashed in a field Shanksville was also not OPENED to the public------the broken stuff was COLLECTED by conscientious people who understand what the word CONFIDENTIAL   (and KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT)  means. 
I am willing to believe that  building 7 had----already within it----
a  DESTRUCT mechanism because it was part of some sort of
governmental-----last resort place and held very top secret stuff------I am willing to believe that since it was damaged---in constituted a risk of PILLAGE of top secret stuff-----THAT I AM WILLING TO BELIEVE------I saw the first building shooting up thick plumes of white smoke-----and gazed at it for what seemed like more than an hour before it collapsed.   No evidence of IMPLOSION----just collapse after a long time----
I saw the plane hit building two-----did not seem much of a feat------one could see those buildings FOR MANY MILES around--------all the way into Jersey---from Staten Island,  all of Manhattan and Brooklyn------a very big target.  Anyone who planned that for mind manipulation would have to be out of his (their)  mind-----it just was not WORTH IT


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## LA RAM FAN (Jul 9, 2016)

there you go with your obsession on 9/11 again I see.

I know am one to talk with my user name and all since I at one time was the same a couple years after the event but the difference in you and me though is "I" at least got wise and listened to other posters back then after arguing about it for a few months with all these paid shills they have planted on message boards everywhere such as candyass "and NOW Irose the lastest shill after my last post." They gave me excellent advise back then that i eventually wised up and followed their lead on  which was-

but MOST importantly,took their advise when they told me-9/11 is the LEAST of our problems we have to worry about from the government right now.

They are doing and plotting far more sinister events against us right now.THATS what americans need to be concerned about. whats going on RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!!

This goes through one ear and out the other with you everytime though when i say-"9/11 is like the JFK assassination.done and over with.

same as the JFK assassination,nothing can be done about it as far as bringing the REAL killers in washington running our country to justice.move on already."

For years I went back and forth on the net with people who defended the warren report that oswald was the lone assassin not realising they knew just as we as I did there was a conspiracy with multiple shooters and there was no evidence against him.

I wised up and moved on to trying to do something about  whats going on NOW. I see you are still obviously stuck in the past same as I once was on JFK though.

I can only try and lead the horse to the water so many times.

see "I" HEARD THEIR words back then they spoke to me on 9/11. it was THEIR words that sunk in with me when I would discuss 9/11 all the time with them.THEY game the wise advise saying "Dude,9/11 is like the JFK assassination.done and over with.nothing will ever be dome about it so what do you hope to achiever trying to convince people you speak the truth? you should be worried about whats going on NOW."

See I am just  repeating wise  words THEY said to ME back then that I eventually took their wise advise on and wisely followed their lead and wisdom on.

you might try and do the same.


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## irosie91 (Jul 9, 2016)

do not worry  ---INSIDEJOB----there are effective medications for that which AILS you--------the thoughts will be tempered and fade


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## Freewill (Jul 9, 2016)

My thoughts, it would be too big and too many people involved for it to be an inside job.  We know for pretty much fact that two planes hit the WTCs.  The pentagon not so much but eye witnesses indicate a jet did hit the petagon.  We know that WTC7 burned for many hours before it collasped.  Now if it were rigged with explosives were they put in before the fires, risking damage or during the fires risking personel?  Logically the same structural fault that cause WTC1 and 2 to fall would cause WTC 7 to also fall.

So when someone tells me where the people went who were supposedly on the plane.  I am going with it was a cleaver plan cooked up and carried out by 19 murderers.

The simplest answer is almost always the best answer.


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## phoenyx (Jul 9, 2016)

irosie91 said:


> you made it too long to go POINT BY POINT-----I will note that I never heard that the PLANES VAPORIZED -------it seems logical to me that the one embedded in the PENTAGON was cordoned off and off limits to casual onlookers------nor were tourists permitted to visit the pentagon HOLE IN THE WALL-----



Technically, Popular Mechanics says that the majority of the plane was liquified rather then vaporized. I imagine Zeitgeist said vaporized, because liquid metal doesn't just disappear into thin air after the event. Here's the quote from Popular Mechanics:
**_Why wasn't the hole as wide as a 757's 124-ft.-10-in. wingspan? A crashing jet doesn't punch a cartoon-like outline of itself into a reinforced concrete building, says ASCE team member Mete Sozen, a professor of structural engineering at Purdue University. In this case, one wing hit the ground; the other was sheared off by the force of the impact with the Pentagon's load-bearing columns, explains Sozen, who specializes in the behavior of concrete buildings. What was left of the plane flowed into the structure in a state closer to a liquid than a solid mass. "If you expected the entire wing to cut into the building," Sozen tells PM, "it didn't happen."_**

Source: *Debunking the 9/11 Myths: Special Report - The Pentagon*



irosie91 said:


> and the one that crashed in a field Shanksville was also not OPENED to the public------the broken stuff was COLLECTED by conscientious people who understand what the word CONFIDENTIAL   (and KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT)  means.



Apparently, not everyone kept their mouth shut:
**_"This crash was different. There was no wreckage, no bodies, and no noise."_
- Somerset County Coroner Wallace Miller [1]

_"I was looking for anything that said tail, wing, plane, metal. There was nothing."_
- Photographer Scott Spangler [2]

_"I was amazed because it did not, in any way, shape, or form, look like a plane crash."_
- Patrick Madigan, commander of the Somerset barracks
of the Pennsylvania State Police [3]**

Source: *Shanksville, Pennsylvania, on 9/11: The Mysterious Plane Crash Site Without a Plane | 911Blogger.com*




irosie91 said:


> I am willing to believe that  building 7 had----already within it----
> a  DESTRUCT mechanism because it was part of some sort of
> governmental-----last resort place and held very top secret stuff------I am willing to believe that since it was damaged---in constituted a risk of PILLAGE of top secret stuff-----THAT I AM WILLING TO BELIEVE------



It's nice to know that you are at least willing to entertain the notion that not everything we were told by the U.S. government is true. Even Fox News admitted that Larry Silverstein had -wanted- to pull the building and had asked for approval to do so. Larry denies having actually done it though:
**_Shortly before the building collapsed, several NYPD officers and Con-Edison workers told me that Larry Silverstein, the property developer of One World Financial Center was on the phone with his insurance carrier to see if they would authorize the controlled demolition of the building – since its foundation was already unstable and expected to fall.

A controlled demolition would have minimized the damage caused by the building’s imminent collapse and potentially save lives. Many law enforcement personnel, firefighters and other journalists were aware of this possible option. There was no secret. There was no conspiracy._**

The article then goes on to deny that it actually happened, but I believe there is lots of evidence that it did, in fact, happen.

Source: *Shame On Jesse Ventura! | Fox News*



irosie91 said:


> I saw the first building shooting up thick plumes of white smoke-----and gazed at it for what seemed like more than an hour before it collapsed.   No evidence of IMPLOSION----just collapse after a long time----



Most of us are not demolition experts. That being said, even some news reporters thought that the Twin Towers may well have been taken down in controlled demolitions. The following video clip was taken as reporters were reporting live when the first Twin Tower (Building 2 or the South Tower) collapsed. You'll see that the reporter right away suspected a controlled demolition:

I myself actually believed the official story for around 2 years, after which I read a book by a writer who has written extensively on controversial subjects, starting with the JFK assassination (his book was one of the 2 references for Oliver Stone's JFK film). Another point: the collapse of the Twin Towers was rather unusual for controlled demolitions, in that the collapse initiated in the top portion, rather then at the bottom. It is more difficult to successfully demolish a building this way, but it is doable, and has been done on a smaller scale. WTC 7 collapsed in the normal demolition fashion, from the bottom up. It seems that for this reason, a Danish demolition expert had no problem calling it a controlled demolition when he first saw it, not realizing that it had collapsed on 9/11 along with the twin towers:



irosie91 said:


> I saw the plane hit building two-----did not seem much of a feat------



On TV, or with your own eyes?



irosie91 said:


> one could see those buildings FOR MANY MILES around--------all the way into Jersey---from Staten Island,  all of Manhattan and Brooklyn------a very big target.  Anyone who planned that for mind manipulation would have to be out of his (their)  mind-----it just was not WORTH IT



Not sure what you mean by mind manipulation...


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## irosie91 (Jul 9, 2016)

the OPINION OF A NEWS REPORTER????    ROFLMAO ----
the damnthing DID NOT IMPLODE----it collapsed top down


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## phoenyx (Jul 9, 2016)

9/11 inside job said:


> there you go with your obsession on 9/11 again I see.
> 
> I know am one to talk with my user name and all since I at one time was the same a couple years after the event but the difference in you and me though is "I" at least got wise and listened to other posters back then after arguing about it for a few months with all these paid shills they have planted on message boards everywhere such as candyass "and NOW Irose the lastest shill after my last post." They gave me excellent advise back then that i eventually wised up and followed their lead on  which was-



You and I don't agree that there is a vast network of paid shills. I can certainly agree that there are -some-, but I think they are far less in number then you might think. irosie's posted over 38,000 posts in USMessageBoard; this is the first time I've seen her here. My guess is she decided to take a peek in this forum and may have already decided it's not for her.



9/11 inside job said:


> but MOST importantly,took their advise when they told me-9/11 is the LEAST of our problems we have to worry about from the government right now.
> 
> They are doing and plotting far more sinister events against us right now. THATS what americans need to be concerned about. whats going on RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!!
> 
> ...



I'm not so sure about that. But I don't discuss it solely to bring justice to the real perpetrators of 9/11. I also discuss it because I think it's a good example of a false flag operation. If people can be persuaded, even a little, that 9/11 may have been a false flag operation, they will be more wary of trusting the mass media's reports of important events.



9/11 inside job said:


> For years I went back and forth on the net with people who defended the warren report that oswald was the lone assassin, not realizing they knew just as I did there was a conspiracy with multiple shooters and there was no evidence against him.
> 
> I wised up and moved on to trying to do something about  whats going on NOW.



I'm sorry 9/11, but just because you believed that they "knew just as I did" that there was a conspiracy. I think people on both sides of the fence when it comes to important events like the JFK assassination or 9/11 have an unfortunate tendency to jump to conclusions as to what members of the other side of the fence know or do not know, frequently leading to both sides accusing the other side of lying. It can be quite tiresome, especially when you're on the receiving end -.-. It also has the tendency of raising the emotions of those being accused, and making it more difficult to actually discuss the evidence, instead of speculating on the motivations of those discussing the subject.



9/11 inside job said:


> I see you are still obviously stuck in the past same as I once was on JFK though.
> 
> I can only try and lead the horse to the water so many times.



Laugh . Historians still argue over what happened millennia ago (the historical Jesus, for instance). Compared to that, 9/11 is an issue that is still quite fresh .


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## phoenyx (Jul 9, 2016)

irosie91 said:


> do not worry  ---INSIDEJOB----there are effective medications for that which AILS you--------the thoughts will be tempered and fade



Somehow, I  don't think that's going to go over too well .


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## phoenyx (Jul 9, 2016)

Freewill said:


> My thoughts, it would be too big and too many people involved for it to be an inside job.



How many people do you think would need to be involved?



Freewill said:


> We know for pretty much fact that two planes hit the WTCs.



I'm not so sure. I -used- to think that was the case. Then I saw September Clues...

Perhaps 2 aircraft hit the Twin Towers, but I'm not sure they were commercial aircraft...



Freewill said:


> The pentagon not so much but eye witnesses indicate a jet did hit the pentagon.



I can certainly agree that some eye witnesses -thought- they saw a jet hit the Pentagon. That being said, I think there's a lot of evidence that this didn't happen. We have a thread here that deals exclusively with the Pentagon attack, it is here:
911 Pentagon - 757 or cruise missile???



Freewill said:


> We know that WTC7 burned for many hours before it collasped.  Now if it were rigged with explosives were they put in before the fires, risking damage or during the fires risking personel?  Logically the same structural fault that cause WTC1 and 2 to fall would cause WTC 7 to also fall.



If by "structural fault", you mean explosives, sure . No steel framed building has collapsed into their own footprint before or after 9/11 without the use of explosives. Not only were explosives used, but they had to installed very carefully. Controlled demolitions frequently go wrong:



Freewill said:


> So when someone tells me where the people went who were supposedly on the plane.  I am going with it was a clever plan cooked up and carried out by 19 murderers.



The best theory I've got so far is explained in the following thread:
*The "4" Flights of 9/11 - What about the Passengers? What happened to them? | Let's Roll Forums*

It's a lot of reading, but if you're interested, there it is...



Freewill said:


> The simplest answer is almost always the best answer.



Propagandists the world over rely on precisely this type of logic.


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## phoenyx (Jul 9, 2016)

irosie91 said:


> the OPINION OF A NEWS REPORTER????    ROFLMAO ----
> the damnthing DID NOT IMPLODE----it collapsed top down



It is certainly more difficult to demolish a building from the top down. That being said, 9/11 wouldn't be the only time this has been done...
*New Video Shows that Demolitions are Sometimes Top-Down | George Washington's Blog*


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## irosie91 (Jul 9, 2016)

phoenyx said:


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ok---BOTH tower 1  and  2----just happened to be struck by jets----just happened to BURN,  SPIT and SPUTTER and get so hot from the top-----and moving down for  hours----so that people were JUMPING out of the windows-----and then-----mysteriously------some one pushed the buttons for the
"controlled demolitions"  -----WATTA PLAN


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## phoenyx (Jul 9, 2016)

irosie91 said:


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There were certainly fires capable of burning people, thus the jumping, but not nearly hot enough melt the buildings. As to what happened, it can only be explained by controlled demolitions. I'm not an architect or an engineer, but Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth have listed 10 pieces of key evidence that the Twin Towers were taken down by controlled demolition. Namely:

Rapid onset of destruction,
Constant acceleration at or near free-fall through what should have been the path of greatest resistance,
Numerous eyewitness accounts of explosions including 118 FDNY personnel,
Lateral ejection of multi-ton steel framing members distances of 600 feet at more than 60 mph,
Mid-air pulverization of 90,000 tons of concrete, and large volumes of expanding pyroclastic-like dust clouds,
Isolated explosive ejections 20 to 60 stories below the “crush zone,”
Total destruction and dismemberment of all three buildings, with 220 floors each an acre in size missing from the Twin Towers’ debris pile,
Several tons of molten steel/iron found in the debris piles,
Evidence of thermite incendiaries on steel beams,
Nanothermite composites and iron microspheres found in WTC dust samples.
Source: AE911Truth — Architects & Engineers Investigating the destruction of all three World Trade Center skyscrapers on September 11 - Evidence


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## irosie91 (Jul 9, 2016)

phoenyx said:


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not impressed


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## phoenyx (Jul 9, 2016)

irosie91 said:


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Are you either an architect or an engineer?


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## yiostheoy (Jul 9, 2016)

Wacko conspiracists like this go straight to my ignore list.


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## irosie91 (Jul 9, 2016)

phoenyx said:


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I am a brilliant woman-----I remember the concepts of.....  are you ready?    .......well----here it is.......***FLASH POINT*** ----
and-----***EXOTHERMIC REACTION****   from high school
chemistry and---chemistry 101-2----

uhm----not enough DEBRIS?     see above and ------were you
in the city when it was over hung for days with particulate crap
in the sky?    "thermite" ?-----that's just oxidized iron  (AKA----
~~~rust.      I got some of it on my iron skillet. 
In sum----think----really high temperatures----NOT FROM THE 
BURNING FUELS--------that was just the starter------consider
the  PLASTICS


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## phoenyx (Jul 10, 2016)

irosie91 said:


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I know that an exothermic reaction is a chemical reaction that releases energy by light or heat. I imagine you're bringing this up because of the mention of thermite incendiaries on steel beams?



irosie91 said:


> uhm----not enough DEBRIS?     see above and



Could you explain what you're referring to here?



irosie91 said:


> ------were you
> in the city when it was over hung for days with particulate crap
> in the sky?



I wasn't, no. Were you?



irosie91 said:


> "thermite" ?-----that's just oxidized iron  (AKA----
> ~~~rust.



Not quite. Google defines it as: "a mixture of finely powdered aluminum and iron oxide that produces a very high temperature on combustion, used in welding and for incendiary bombs."




irosie91 said:


> In sum----think----really high temperatures----NOT FROM THE
> BURNING FUELS--------that was just the starter------consider
> the  PLASTICS



Let me guess,  you're going with NIST's explanation that "The fuel for the fires was ordinary office combustibles at ordinary combustible load levels", that it? It wouldn't explain the molten metal, which is why possibly why both the 9/11 Commission and NIST both ignored it...
Molten metal under Trade Center rubble could NOT have come from jet fuel | Truth and Shadows


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## irosie91 (Jul 10, 2016)

phoenyx said:


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of course not----"ordinary office combustible"----EXTRAORDINARY office combustible----things that would not
START burning until their VERY HIGH flashpoint is reached.  
No question ---in an ordinary fire---in which wood and --paper burns up----things like metal may just get hot but NOT MELT---
In a fire which is the result of a plane CRASHING thru a building and sustained by jet fuel---the ENERGY LEVELS are much higher than the burning of a bed mattress or a wooden table----the MUCH HIGHER ENERGY levers means MUCH HIGH HEAT-------those levels heat reach the flash points of things that DO NOT ORDINARILY BURN ----sometimes melt but DO NOT BURN-----when plastic burns that  CHEMICAL REACTION is extreme exothermic   (ie produces MORE HEAT).    As the FLASH POINTS of various materials are reached they BURN----their burning produces PROGRESSIVELY MORE HEAT------and those heat levels do
melt metals


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## phoenyx (Jul 10, 2016)

irosie91 said:


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I've never seen an article that supports this notion of yours. Could you provide one?


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## irosie91 (Jul 10, 2016)

phoenyx said:


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no----I am not obsessed with the naysayers----I saw and I know what I saw.    I did high school chemistry---and college---101  102 ---and---some other stuff like  'organic'  (with all its HIGH ENERGY BONDS----and I remember SMOKEY THE BEAR---because some camper threw a cigarette on some dry leaves


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## phoenyx (Jul 10, 2016)

irosie91 said:


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I see.



irosie91 said:


> I did high school chemistry---and college---101  102 ---and---some other stuff like  'organic'  (with all its HIGH ENERGY BONDS----and I remember SMOKEY THE BEAR---because some camper threw a cigarette on some dry leaves



Almost sounds like you're suggesting that all it'd take to collapse a steel framed building is someone dropping a lit cigarette and walking away -.- The fact of the matter is, fires of any size or duration have never been claimed to completely collapsed a building, let alone a steel framed one on any day other than 9/11. Here are some good examples:
Other Fires in Steel-Structure Buildings


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## irosie91 (Jul 10, 2016)

phoenyx said:


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roflmao--------it was not just a "fire" ----it also had the impact of the   JET PLANE FOR ALLAH.     Not to back to your corner
and think   "ENERGY"


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## phoenyx (Jul 10, 2016)

irosie91 said:


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A fire fueled by only jet plane fuel and office furniture was not enough to even melt the steel, let alone collapse the entire building.


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## irosie91 (Jul 10, 2016)

phoenyx said:


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not true----the fire was fueled by the burning of the whole damned building.  which included a lot more than office furniture.    Whole forests of living trees do not burn down
by the "fueling" of a single burning cigarette.   In the case of the WTC----materials with very strong bonds  ---think back to your
ORGANIC class and think   POLY VINYLS  --<<< really strong
hydrogen bonds being PULLED APART,.........the level of HEAT was virtually moving to infinity as flashpoints were
attained.   (you need not tell me that you dropped organic and became a sociology major)--


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## phoenyx (Jul 10, 2016)

irosie91 said:


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irosie, why do you think it is that no one has come up with this theory yet? You really think you're ahead of everyone on this one?


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## LA RAM FAN (Jul 10, 2016)

yiostheoy said:


> Wacko conspiracists like this go straight to my ignore list.



well  yiostheory,then you better put Irosie and freewill   on your ignore list then.

after all,wacko conspiracy theorists like this shill  Irosie   who believe in this wacky conspiracy theory below in this link here,SHOULD be added to your ignore list.



Idaho Observer: The looniest of all 9/11 conspiracy theories

One of the wilder stories circulating about Sept 11 (and one that has attracted something of a cult following amongst conspiracy buffs) is that it was carried out by 19 fanatical Arab hijackers, masterminded by an evil genius named Osama bin Laden, with no apparent motivation other than that they “hate our freedoms.”

Never a group of people to be bothered by facts, the perpetrators of this cartoon fantasy have constructed an elaborately woven web of delusions and unsubstantiated hearsay in order to promote this garbage across the Internet and the media to the extent that a number of otherwise rational people have actually fallen under its spell.

Normally I don't even bother debunking this kind of junk, but the effect that this paranoid myth is beginning to have requires a little rational analysis, in order to consign it to the same rubbish bin as all such silly conspiracy theories.

These crackpots even contend that the extremist Bush regime was caught unawares by the attacks, had no hand in organizing them and actually would have stopped them if it had been able. Blindly ignoring the stand down of the U.S. Air Force, the insider trading on airline stocks (linked to the CIA), the complicit behavior of Bush on the morning of the attacks, the controlled demolition of the WTC, the firing of a missile into the Pentagon and a host of other documented proofs that the Bush regime was behind the attacks, the conspiracy theorists stick doggedly to a silly story about 19 Arab hijackers somehow managing to commandeer four planes simultaneously and fly them around U.S. airspace for nearly two hours, crashing them into important buildings, without the U.S. intelligence services having any idea that it was coming, and without the Air Force knowing what to do.


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## LA RAM FAN (Jul 10, 2016)

Freewill said:


> My thoughts, it would be too big and too many people involved for it to be an inside job.  We know for pretty much fact that two planes hit the WTCs.  The pentagon not so much but eye witnesses indicate a jet did hit the petagon.  We know that WTC7 burned for many hours before it collasped.  Now if it were rigged with explosives were they put in before the fires, risking damage or during the fires risking personel?  Logically the same structural fault that cause WTC1 and 2 to fall would cause WTC 7 to also fall.
> 
> So when someone tells me where the people went who were supposedly on the plane.  I am going with it was a cleaver plan cooked up and carried out by 19 murderers.
> 
> The simplest answer is almost always the best answer.




ahh but the problem with that warped opinion that 19 muslims and Bin Laden were behind it all is twofold. 1.some of the alleged highjackers they said did it turned up alive which disproves their theory. 2. They never proved Bin Laden did it. same  as with oswald,in both cases,the ALLEGED criminal denied he did it and in both cases,there was no evidence to prove their case against the alleged criminal. they failed both times which proves Bin Laden same as Oswald,was a patsy as well.


Its only the best answer if you dont want to look at the evidence .

these facts in this link below.prove the governments theory  is the most bizarre conspiracy theory invented ever.


Idaho Observer: The looniest of all 9/11 conspiracy theories
One of the wilder stories circulating about Sept 11 (and one that has attracted something of a cult following amongst conspiracy buffs) is that it was carried out by 19 fanatical Arab hijackers, masterminded by an evil genius named Osama bin Laden, with no apparent motivation other than that they “hate our freedoms.”

Never a group of people to be bothered by facts, the perpetrators of this cartoon fantasy have constructed an elaborately woven web of delusions and unsubstantiated hearsay in order to promote this garbage across the Internet and the media to the extent that a number of otherwise rational people have actually fallen under its spell.

Normally I don't even bother debunking this kind of junk, but the effect that this paranoid myth is beginning to have requires a little rational analysis, in order to consign it to the same rubbish bin as all such silly conspiracy theories.

These crackpots even contend that the extremist Bush regime was caught unawares by the attacks, had no hand in organizing them and actually would have stopped them if it had been able. Blindly ignoring the stand down of the U.S. Air Force, the insider trading on airline stocks (linked to the CIA), the complicit behavior of Bush on the morning of the attacks, the controlled demolition of the WTC, the firing of a missile into the Pentagon and a host of other documented proofs that the Bush regime was behind the attacks, the conspiracy theorists stick doggedly to a silly story about 19 Arab hijackers somehow managing to commandeer four planes simultaneously and fly them around U.S. airspace for nearly two hours, crashing them into important buildings, without the U.S. intelligence services having any idea that it was coming, and without the Air Force knowing what to do.


----------



## Capstone (Jul 10, 2016)

As I see it, the question as to "what really happened on 9/11" should be approached in a way that doesn't downplay the importance of a certain series of events that preceded that darkest of days, from the wave of privatization that swept through NYC in the mid-to-late 90's (which resulted in a couple of key WTC security and elevator system contracts) to the major "renovations" and "modernization projects" that took place in the targeted buildings in the weeks and months leading up to the "attacks". In line with the doctrine of 'plausible deniability', there's little doubt in my mind that 9/11 was _years_ in the making and that several critical steps had been taken unwittingly by bought-and-paid-for politicians _as well as_ wittingly by a handful of teams of professional order-followers and operatives well in advance of 9/11/01.

In terms of some of the operational steps on the day of the "attacks", building on the premise that the targeted skyscrapers had indeed been rigged ahead of time under the pretext of a well-documented series of construction projects, I believe that Flights 11 and 175 were switched out in mid-flight for R/C drones and that the 2 legit airliners were then sent to rendezvous with Flight 93 (a passenger jumbo jet that had been secured and equpped in advance for R/C flight), onto which the passengers and any unwitting crew members from the diverted airliners were loaded with the intention of placing their bodies and personal effects in NYC.

I think it's pretty clear that something went wrong with the Flight 93 aspect of the plan. We know from Cheney's own admission on tape that he issued a shoot-down order based on erroneous information regarding Flight 93's direction of travel. It is my multi-tier belief that the order was followed by an interceptor pilot from _The Happy Hooligans_ and that the in-flight passenger revolt was contrived, in part to put a _feel good_ spin on the story but more importantly to justify the handling and classification of the so-called "crash site" in Shankesville, PA. As a result of that bungled aspect of the operation, the controversy surrounding the inexplicable "collapse" of Building 7 was born...(along with the 9/11 truth movement).

Regarding Flight 77, I believe that a flyover was staged to coincide with the carefully coordinated group assassination that took place aboard the "commuter-type jet" that actually struck the Pentagon. YES, I believe an aircraft really DID hit that building! Can't say who the targets of the group asassination were, but the evidence suggests that the "commuter jet" originated in the D.C. area at a time when evacuations of sensitive facilities were reportedly underway.

Recall Omar Campos's detailed description of the plane: "_A 10 to 15 passenger business jet, [...] white up top and blue downstairs, with United States of America markings_ "...







^^Seriously, Gang, according to an eyewitness who was on the freakin' lawn when it hit, the plane that struck the Pentagon looked *very much* like the one in that pic.

Now, with the exception of some logic-based speculation, the bulk of the above-mentioned 'beliefs' have their basis in the available evidence; AND, unlike some of my fellow "twoofers", I can actually back up that statement.

To sum things up, I believe that 9/11 was a multinational (though quintessentially _Western_) false flag operation designed to fulfill the prophecies of the likes of Albert Pike, Oded Yinon, George H.W. Bush, and the PNAC signatories, among others. It really _was_ "a new Pearl Harbor", in every foul-smelling sense of that analogy_._


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## SAYIT (Jul 10, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> Technically, Popular Mechanics says that the majority of the plane was liquified rather then vaporized. I imagine Zeitgeist said vaporized, because liquid metal doesn't just disappear into thin air after the event. Here's the quote from Popular Mechanics:
> **_Why wasn't the hole as wide as a 757's 124-ft.-10-in. wingspan? A crashing jet doesn't punch a cartoon-like outline of itself into a reinforced concrete building, says ASCE team member Mete Sozen, a professor of structural engineering at Purdue University. In this case, one wing hit the ground; the other was sheared off by the force of the impact with the Pentagon's load-bearing columns, explains Sozen, who specializes in the behavior of concrete buildings. What was left of the plane flowed into the structure in a state closer to a liquid than a solid mass. "If you expected the entire wing to cut into the building," Sozen tells PM, "it didn't happen."_**...



So Pop Mechs *did not say* the plane had liquefied. I take that to mean you started this thread because you wearied of having your lies so easily exposed on the 911 Pentagon - 757 or cruise missile??? thread and needed a new place to post your 9/11 CT lies.

The question remains: if in your many years of "researching" 9/11 you have uncovered convincing evidence of an inside job, why must you lie so persistently?



phoenyx said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > ok---BOTH tower 1  and  2----just happened to be struck by jets----just happened to BURN,  SPIT and SPUTTER and get so hot from the top-----and moving down for  hours----so that people were JUMPING out of the windows-----and then-----mysteriously------some one pushed the buttons for the "controlled demolitions"  -----WATTA PLAN
> ...



Classic Red Herring!
Only a fool would claim that the buildings melted so your "knowledge" is particularly common and pointless. I do find you have finally come out of the closet and placed yourself in the "Controlled Demo" CT camp. As with your "Pentagon Flyover" claims, there is _absolutely no evidence_ of a CD and _overwhelming evidence_ that controlled demos in buildings that have been hit by large passenger jets (at high speeds) and suffered structural damage and hours of chaotic fires would be impossible.


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## irosie91 (Jul 10, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
> ...



all  people with a brain who passed  High School Chemistry  KNOW IT       ----lots of people did not pass or took the baby course------I was in the honors class so I DO understand that the fire became PROGRESSIVELY HOTTER AND HOTTER----
which is why  Iron and even steel CAN MELT. ------in fact it need not melt to collapse-----some people know about the
concept of METAL FATIGUE    -----it collapses under weight LONG BEFORE IT MELTS.    As to heat at the bottom----the very act of that  COLLOSAL  collapse released so much energy   (remember the interchange between energy and HEAT?---) that debris was FLUNG UP AND OUT for miles
(miles refers to small particulate stuff) ------yes----I was there---at least close enough to see it which is why I understand it
was not a controlled demolition-----I have seen controlled demolitions


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## phoenyx (Jul 10, 2016)

Capstone said:


> As I see it, the question as to "what really happened on 9/11" should be approached in a way that doesn't downplay the importance of a certain series of events that preceded that darkest of days, from the wave of privatization that swept through NYC in the mid-to-late 90's (which resulted in a couple of key WTC security and elevator system contracts) to the major "renovations" and "modernization projects" that took place in the targeted buildings in the weeks and months leading up to the "attacks". In line with the doctrine of 'plausible deniability', there's little doubt in my mind that 9/11 was _years_ in the making and that several critical steps had been taken unwittingly by bought-and-paid-for politicians _as well as_ wittingly by a handful of teams of professional order-followers and operatives well in advance of 9/11/01.
> 
> In terms of some of the operational steps on the day of the "attacks", building on the premise that the targeted skyscrapers had indeed been rigged ahead of time under the pretext of a well-documented series of construction projects, I believe that Flights 11 and 175 were switched out in mid-flight for R/C drones and that the 2 legit airliners were then sent to rendezvous with Flight 93 (a passenger jumbo jet that had been secured and equpped in advance for R/C flight), onto which the passengers and any unwitting crew members from the diverted airliners were loaded with the intention of placing their bodies and personal effects in NYC.
> 
> ...



I agree  that "9/11 was a multinational (though quintessentially _Western_) false flag operation", and was inspired atleast in part by PNAC's 90 page report titled "Rebuilding America's Defenses", which had that "New Pearl Harbor" line in it. I agree that the plane that approached the Pentagon was smaller then a 757, but I think that's about as far as we agree on that point. I tend to discuss that particular aspect of 9/11 in the Pentagon thread, here: 911 Pentagon - 757 or cruise missile???

As to the passengers on the 4 planes alleged to have crashed on 9/11, I believe that Phil Jayhan's work on the subject is the most persuasive:
Phil Jayhan: The "4" Flights of 9/11 - What Happened to the Passengers? - Golden Age of Gaia

I think it may not be quite the same as your own theory, but I think the differences are minor.


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## phoenyx (Jul 10, 2016)

SAYIT said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > Technically, Popular Mechanics says that the majority of the plane was liquified rather then vaporized. I imagine Zeitgeist said vaporized, because liquid metal doesn't just disappear into thin air after the event. Here's the quote from Popular Mechanics:
> ...



You're right, technically they didn't quite put it that way. I actually quoted what they -did- say, but perhaps you missed it? I'll quote the most relevant part: "What was left of the plane flowed into the structure in a state closer to a liquid than a solid mass.".



SAYIT said:


> I take that to mean you started this thread because you wearied of having your lies so easily exposed on the 911 Pentagon - 757 or cruise missile??? thread and needed a new place to post your 9/11 CT lies.



You sound just like those who are quick to label anyone who believes the official story a shill. Just because you don't believe what I believe doesn't mean I'm lying. If you'd fully read the OP, you would know why I started this thread.



SAYIT said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > irosie91 said:
> ...



Please show me this "overwhelming evidence". In the meantime, I'd like to once again point out Architects and Engineer's key evidence:


Rapid onset of destruction,
Constant acceleration at or near free-fall through what should have been the path of greatest resistance,
Numerous eyewitness accounts of explosions including 118 FDNY personnel,
Lateral ejection of multi-ton steel framing members distances of 600 feet at more than 60 mph,
Mid-air pulverization of 90,000 tons of concrete, and large volumes of expanding pyroclastic-like dust clouds,
Isolated explosive ejections 20 to 60 stories below the “crush zone,”
Total destruction and dismemberment of all three buildings, with 220 floors each an acre in size missing from the Twin Towers’ debris pile,
Several tons of molten steel/iron found in the debris piles,
Evidence of thermite incendiaries on steel beams,
Nanothermite composites and iron microspheres found in WTC dust samples.
Source: AE911Truth — Architects & Engineers Investigating the destruction of all three World Trade Center skyscrapers on September 11 - Evidence


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## phoenyx (Jul 10, 2016)

irosie91 said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > irosie91 said:
> ...



You seem to be interested in high school courses a fair amount. Perhaps you might care to look at what a high school teacher has to say regarding the collapses of the WTC buildings. Some really basic physics principles involved...


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## irosie91 (Jul 10, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
> ...



nope----not at all-----I read the book----the  physics teacher
was an IDIOT-----he did not know the subject at all.   The
poor guy was forced to grant me an  A ------because I aced
the tests----but he FAILED ME IN ----the innovative "mark"
that was added to the scoring system that year---"ATTITUDE"
and even knocked me down by describing me as  "apathetic
and indifferent" ------it kept me off the honor role that semester


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## SAYIT (Jul 10, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
> ...



Technically?

Indeed, the most relevant part of that Pop Mech quote was the analogy which correctly noted the condition of the plane as it flowed through the Pentagon's reinforced concrete outer wall: "closer to a liquid than a solid mass" ... not "liquified" (sic) as you falsely claimed.

The common thread running through your posts is your eagerness to post half-truths, mischaracterizations and outright fabrications. Again, if your years of "research" on 9/11 has led you to believe they were controlled demos (complete with a Pentagon "flyover"), why do you so persistently lie when attempting to make your case? Can it be that in your heart of hearts you realize you have burrowed into a wabbit hole and come up with nothing but wabbit crap?



phoenyx said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> > I take that to mean you started this thread because you wearied of having your lies so easily exposed on the 911 Pentagon - 757 or cruise missile??? thread and needed a new place to post your 9/11 CT lies.
> ...



You sound like those who get caught lying on a very regular basis - and not only I have noticed - and do your "What's The Big Deal" dance rather than change your ways.

Me? I just call 'em like I see 'em and you have proven to be an inveterate liar.


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## phoenyx (Jul 10, 2016)

irosie91 said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > irosie91 said:
> ...



What book?



irosie91 said:


> The
> poor guy was forced to grant me an  A ------because I aced
> the tests----but he FAILED ME IN ----the innovative "mark"
> that was added to the scoring system that year---"ATTITUDE"
> ...



You're saying Jonathan Cole was your teacher?


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## phoenyx (Jul 11, 2016)

SAYIT said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > SAYIT said:
> ...



Lord, save me from nitpickers -.-...



SAYIT said:


> Again, if your years of "research" on 9/11 has led you to believe they were controlled demos (complete with a Pentagon "flyover"), why do you so persistently lie when attempting to make your case?



I think a better question would be why so many people engaged in discussing 9/11 accuse each other of being liars. It certainly doesn't aid in coming to an agreement on what happened. It seems you're uninterested in actually discussing any of the evidence provided by Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth. So hard to get people who are actually willing to discuss the evidence in this debate, sigh -.-...


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## LA RAM FAN (Jul 11, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
> ...






phoenyx said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
> ...




Not EVERYONE  who doesnt believe the official story of the governments is a lying  paid shill like sayit,faun,iroise and candyass of course.

the ones that come and just post one liner insults when they see an OP like this saying stuff like- "You fucking idiot,go somewhere else and troll and take that tin foil hat with you." or that other Bush dupe who earlier said this-"Wacko conspiracists like this go straight to my ignore list."

Now THOSE kind of people are just brainwashed Bush dupes in denial and dont want to look at the evidence. they are just brainwashed same as i once was for three years on this.

The ones that are paid shills that you are too ignorant to accept,are easy as pie to spot and include sayit,faun,iroise and of course their ringleader,the biggest troll of them all candyass.

they play dodgeball and go into evade mode changing the subject when they are cornered by pesky facts they cant address with bible length rants full of lies and propaganda just as their handlers instruct them to do  so  because gullible people like you OBSESSED over this,will waste their time on them unable to understand 9/11 is the least of our problems we have to worry about from the government right now.

I was once gullible as you were and also ignorantly wasted my time on them for a few years but eventually wised up.


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## irosie91 (Jul 11, 2016)

he wised up and became a paid shill


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## phoenyx (Jul 11, 2016)

9/11 inside job said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > SAYIT said:
> ...



Now I'm being insulted by my side of the fence as well -.-. A word of advice- calling someone ignorant generally isn't the best way to persuade them that you're right. As to sayit, Faun, Iroise and candy, it seems that you believe that anyone sticks around here and continues to disagree with you is a shill. Reminds me of many if not all of the people you mentioned think of truthers- they seem to think that truthers lie to get attention, apparently. Lots of speculation and a terrible waste of time on both sides. What we should be focusing on is the evidence.



9/11 inside job said:


> they play dodgeball and go into evade mode changing the subject when they are cornered by pesky facts they cant address with bible length rants full of lies and propaganda just as their handlers instruct them to do  so  because gullible people like you OBSESSED over this,will waste their time on them unable to understand 9/11 is the least of our problems we have to worry about from the government right now.



If I felt I was wasting my time, I'd spend it elsewhere. As to what they do with the evidence, that's their concern. The only rule I have is that there has to be an adequate amount of civility in the discussion.



9/11 inside job said:


> I was once gullible as you were and also ignorantly wasted my time on them for a few years but eventually wised up.



You've told me this story before -.-...


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## phoenyx (Jul 11, 2016)

irosie91 said:


> he wised up and became a paid shill



I trust your compensation package has all the perks ?


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## irosie91 (Jul 11, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > he wised up and became a paid shill
> ...





phoenyx said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
> ...


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## phoenyx (Jul 11, 2016)

irosie91 said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > Technically, Popular Mechanics says that the majority of the plane was liquified rather then vaporized. I imagine Zeitgeist said vaporized, because liquid metal doesn't just disappear into thin air after the event. Here's the quote from Popular Mechanics:
> ...



I transferred my response to the Pentagon event thread here, as it's a subject that we've been talking about for a while in this forum...
911 Pentagon - 757 or cruise missile???


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## candycorn (Jul 12, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> Now I'm being insulted by my side of the fence as well -.-. A word of advice- calling someone ignorant generally isn't the best way to persuade them that you're right. As to sayit, Faun, Iroise and candy, it seems that you believe that anyone sticks around here and continues to disagree with you is a shill. Reminds me of many if not all of the people you mentioned think of truthers- they seem to think that truthers lie to get attention, apparently. Lots of speculation and a terrible waste of time on both sides. What we should be focusing on is the evidence.



I agree.  And since you will accept nothing excpet evidence that has a some bizarre custody chain and dismiss out of hand anything else (including exhibits in a federal trial), I will no longer accept CIT interviews as evidence. 

For all I know, they dubbed someone else's voice over all of the "witnesses" and pulled those guys out of some half-way house.  

If you were not the one conducting the interview, it's inadmissible from now on and it's only admissible if the entire thing is submitted--editing lies of course.  

So now I have an impossibly high standard of evidentiary acceptance too.  I encourage everyone to follow your example and demand clear evidence chains of custody, trust nobody up to and including federal prosecutors (much less 2 asswipes on the Internet).  

Thanks for showing us exactly what evidence should be like.  

So what would you like to discuss now?  More hearsay which is inadmissible?


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## Capstone (Jul 12, 2016)

phoenyx said:
			
		

> ...I agree that the plane that approached the Pentagon was smaller then a 757, but I think that's about as far as we agree on that point. ...


Corroborated eyewitness testimonies that were gathered and recorded for posterity _on the day of the incident_ cannot be ignored or discounted, *particularly* when what they "corroborated" flew in the face of the official narrative from the get-go. That's true, because we can reasonably preclude such accounts from the list of likely fabrications. Obviously, those who may have sought to fabricate eyewitness testimony in order to prop up the official storyline wouldn't have conjured up accounts that fatally contradicted it! Don Wright, Steve Patterson, and Omar Campos all saw the plane hit the building. Moreover, the plane that they and several others described bore a striking resemblance to the one pictured in my previous post (BTW, the Lockheed Jetstar has a long and storied history of government service, including stints as _Air Force 2_). 

It should be said: unlike most of the OCT apologists I've engaged on the matter, I haven't ignored or denied the abundance of contradictory eyewitness testimony concerning the plane*s* that were seen at or near the Pentagon at the time of the "attack"; I've endeavored instead to explain it. In my opinion, the coordinated flyover/strike, as described in my last post, does just that.



			
				phoenyx said:
			
		

> ...As to the passengers on the 4 planes alleged to have crashed on 9/11, I believe that Phil Jayhan's work on the subject is the most persuasive:
> Phil Jayhan: The "4" Flights of 9/11 - What Happened to the Passengers? - Golden Age of Gaia
> 
> I think it may not be quite the same as your own theory, but I think the differences are minor.


The thing that bothers me most about the BTS data anomalies is that they only involve the American Airlines jets - this despite the fact that those flights allegedly originated from different airports. The Bureau can only report what's been reported to _it_. If, for whatever reason, AA chose or was advised not to report on various aspects of the "hijacked" aircraft, then we'd expect the missing/incomplete data to apply to its planes only, which is exactly what we see on the relevant BTS reports. I'm not saying that's what happened; I'm just a bit leery of using those data anomalies as a foundation for the claim that Flights 11 and 77 never actually took off on 9/11/01.

On a peripherally related note, there was a huge stink raised a couple of years ago over some perceived anomalies in the FBI's crime stats for 2012. It turned out that those anomalies were due to the fact that the Sandy Hook killings were reported by the Ct. State Police instead of the Newtown Police Dept. - a fact that left egg on the faces of quite a few conspiracy theorists.

Anyhoo, as you rightly pointed out, the differences between my beliefs and those of Jayhan are pretty much academic. He doesn't deny that the passenger lists for 11, 175, and 77 were legit. He simply posits a different means for the doomed passengers' rendezvous with Flight 93. It's basically the same idea.


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## phoenyx (Jul 12, 2016)

candycorn said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > Now I'm being insulted by my side of the fence as well -.-. A word of advice- calling someone ignorant generally isn't the best way to persuade them that you're right. As to sayit, Faun, Iroise and candy, it seems that you believe that anyone sticks around here and continues to disagree with you is a shill. Reminds me of many if not all of the people you mentioned think of truthers- they seem to think that truthers lie to get attention, apparently. Lots of speculation and a terrible waste of time on both sides. What we should be focusing on is the evidence.
> ...



Clearly, you've never heard of the term 'chain of custody'. I think a wikipedia lesson is in order:
**
*Chain of custody* (CoC), in legal contexts, refers to the chronological documentation or paper trail, showing the seizure, custody, control, transfer, analysis, and disposition of physical or electronic evidence.

*Particularly important in criminal cases*, the concept is also applied in civil litigation—and sometimes more broadly in drug testing of athletes, traceabilityof food products, and to provide assurances that wood products originate from sustainably managed forests.

The term is also sometimes used in the fields of history, art history, and archives as a synonym for provenance (meaning the chronology of the ownership, custody or location of a historical object, document or group of documents), which may be *an important factor in determining authenticity*.**

Source: Chain of custody - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The bolded words after "chain of custody" were mine, as they're pretty important.



candycorn said:


> and dismiss out of hand anything else (including exhibits in a federal trial),



A kangarou court makes a mockery of justice. Just because Moussaoui said it was fine -after- he found out he wasn't  going to be executed doesn't change this.



candycorn said:


> ...I will no longer accept CIT interviews as evidence.



Suit yourself. I will continue to cite it as evidence though.



candycorn said:


> For all I know, they dubbed someone else's voice over all of the "witnesses" and pulled those guys out of some half-way house.



Did the U.S. Army Center for Military History and the Library of Congress also pull some of them out of some half-way house -.-?


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## candycorn (Jul 13, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
> ...



Unless you have sworn affidavits (notarized) from the witnesses, we will just assume CIT is lying; just as you assume everyone that has a different version of events than you is lying to you.  Sounds fair.


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## Dale Smith (Jul 13, 2016)

Capstone said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





No one died at Sandy Hook......ask me how I know. A  passenger plane did not hit the Pentagon..ask me how I know.  Dick Cheney took over command of NORAD in June of 2001....unprecedented and then he allowed an alleged jet to get within the parameters of the Pentagon while giving stand down orders and we have testimony of that. 
*
Norman Mineta testifying before the 9/11 Commission, though it was omitted from their final report. He told Lee Hamilton:

“During the time that the airplane was coming into the Pentagon, there was a young man who would come in and say to the Vice President…the plane is 50 miles out…the plane is 30 miles out…and when it got down to the plane is 10 miles out, the young man also said to the vice president “do the orders still stand?” And the Vice President turned and whipped his neck around and said “Of course the orders still stand, have you heard anything to the contrary!?”



*


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## phoenyx (Jul 13, 2016)

Capstone said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > ...I agree that the plane that approached the Pentagon was smaller then a 757, but I think that's about as far as we agree on that point. ...
> ...



I responded in one of the Pentagon attack threads here, as I think this particular aspect of 9/11 deserves a thread all to itself...
Hmmm. Pentagon. Plane? MISSILE??


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## Mr Natural (Jul 13, 2016)

In order to justify the much planned Iraq Fiasco, the Cheney/Bush people had their good buddies the Saudis round up some of their crazies and teach tem how to fly loaded airplanes into the World Trade Center conveniently located in Liberal dominated NYC.


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## psikeyhackr (Jul 13, 2016)

The issue is The Twin Towers Anomaly.

How could a 150 ton airliner destroy a 400,000 ton skyscraper in less than 2 hours and make it come down in less than 30 seconds?  Regardless of which conspiracy is responsible the physics should be explained.

Then the physicists must explain why they didn't explain in by January of 2003.

psik


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## SAYIT (Jul 13, 2016)

psikeyhackr said:


> The issue is The Twin Towers Anomaly.
> 
> How could a 150 ton airliner destroy a 400,000 ton skyscraper in less than 2 hours and make it come down in less than 30 seconds?  Regardless of which conspiracy is responsible the physics should be explained.
> 
> ...



You can't be this devoid of 9/11 knowledge 15 years after the attack so I must conclude you don't really care about facts or truth ... just your agenda (whatever that happens to be). 

Here's a clue: the airliners did not destroy the Towers. Just as we watched, the fires weakened enough support to cause the weight of multiple floors to collapse and crush the floors below. This is not rocket science but if you can't accept what so many of us observed on 9/11/01, physicists won't be able to help you.


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## psikeyhackr (Jul 14, 2016)

SAYIT said:


> psikeyhackr said:
> 
> 
> > The issue is The Twin Towers Anomaly.
> ...



A distinction without a difference.  But there have been so many other fires in skyscrapers that were bigger and lasted longer and yet the buildings did not collapse.  So your comment is really just bullshit.

But then firefighters got to the 78th floor of the south tower and reported back that the fire could be "knocked down with two lines" and then the building suddenly collapsed in less than 30 seconds.

I guess fire fighters don't know shit about fires.

It is also curious that in 1940 it only took 4 months for a college professor and his students to build a 50 ft 1/200th scale model of the Tacoma Narrows Bridge in a wind tunnel to study the oscillation.  No computers in 1940.  But in FIFTEEN YEARS we do not have physical or virtual models of the north tower collapse to explain how it came down so quickly.

Sorry that I am so devoid of knowledge!  Let's just say that I am devoid of BELIEF.

PROVE IT!!!

psik


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## phoenyx (Jul 15, 2016)

Mr Clean said:


> In order to justify the much planned Iraq Fiasco, the Cheney/Bush people had their good buddies the Saudis round up some of their crazies and teach tem how to fly loaded airplanes into the World Trade Center conveniently located in Liberal dominated NYC.



Perhaps some Saudis were led to believe that this is what their role would be. Based on what I have seen, however, their real role was primarily that of patsies. Here's a link on the 9/11 hijackers:
At Least 7 of the 9/11 Hijackers are Still Alive

As to Hani Hanjour in particular:
"_This guy could not solo a Cessna 150 ... and what I mean by solo is a pilot's first time out without anyone in the cockpit with him. It's the most simple, the most fundamental flying exercise one can engage in..._"
Read more at: Flight 77 Hijacker Hani Hanjour - 9/11 Pilot Extraordinaire


----------



## phoenyx (Jul 15, 2016)

Dale Smith said:


> Dick Cheney took over command of NORAD in June of 2001....unprecedented and then he allowed an alleged jet to get within the parameters of the Pentagon while giving stand down orders and we have testimony of that.
> *
> Norman Mineta testifying before the 9/11 Commission, though it was omitted from their final report. He told Lee Hamilton:
> 
> “During the time that the airplane was coming into the Pentagon, there was a young man who would come in and say to the Vice President…the plane is 50 miles out…the plane is 30 miles out…and when it got down to the plane is 10 miles out, the young man also said to the vice president “do the orders still stand?” And the Vice President turned and whipped his neck around and said “Of course the orders still stand, have you heard anything to the contrary!?”*



I find that this is a point that those who believe the official story generally don't want to deal with- it is very hard to fit this into their narrative that 9/11 wasn't an inside job...


----------



## phoenyx (Jul 15, 2016)

candycorn said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > candycorn said:
> ...



First of all, it's not -my- version of events, it's the version that the majority of the witnesses in the best positions to know the flight path the plane took in its final approach to the Pentagon. Secondly, I have never just "assumed" any of the witnesses were lying. If I had, I wouldn't have spent a considerable amount of time discussing various witnesses that he himself brought up with Faun.


----------



## phoenyx (Jul 15, 2016)

psikeyhackr said:


> The issue is The Twin Towers Anomaly.
> 
> How could a 150 ton airliner destroy a 400,000 ton skyscraper in less than 2 hours and make it come down in less than 30 seconds?  Regardless of which conspiracy is responsible the physics should be explained.
> 
> ...



I think one physicist named Steven Jones did a pretty good job of it...
In this paper I question the “official” story that the collapses  of the high-rise World Trade Center buildings on 9-11-01 were


----------



## phoenyx (Jul 15, 2016)

psikeyhackr said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> > psikeyhackr said:
> ...



-Some- models have been done. Not in the detail I imagine you'd like, but good enough to make their point nonetheless. Take this simple one that is simply bringing up Newton's laws of motion...


----------



## rightwinger (Jul 15, 2016)

I believe:

- When the towers and WTC7 were built they were wired with explosives so that someday they could be imploded on government command
- Our leaders secretly planned to kill thousands of Americans on 9-11 and laughed maniacally as they did it
- We waited 30 years for terrorists to fly into the towers. and then remotely exploded the buildings at exactly the point of impact
- People jumped from the towers because they heard the government was going to explode them
- WTC 7 was allowed to burn for hours before it was remotely exploded without concern that the fire could mess up the prewired explosive charges
- A missile flew into the Pentagon and the actual 757 was flown to a remote airfield where our government executed the passengers
- A missile was launched at Shanksville and Flight 93 was diverted elsewhere and all the passengers were killed by our government


----------



## Capstone (Jul 15, 2016)

dale smith said:
			
		

> No one died at Sandy Hook......ask me how I know. ...


I don't need to ask how you _think_ you "know" that or anything else you've claimed to know on this board. I've seen enough from you over the past 10 months to formulate my own belief in that regard. My guess is that you saw something online which confirmed your bias and then immediately suspended all doubt in favor of that bias. As usual, though, your unwarranted degree of certainty on the matter is most likely just symptomatic of your delusional thought processes.

I have my doubts regarding the Sandy Hook event, but the point of bringing up the stink that was raised over the perceived anomalies in the FBI's crime stats for 2012 was to highlight the danger inherent in jumping to conclusions on the basis of data point entries (or the lack thereof) that may well have an innocent explanation.



			
				dale smith said:
			
		

> ...A passenger plane did not hit the Pentagon..ask me how I know. ...


Since it applies equally well, please see the first paragraph of my response to your first claim above.



			
				dale smith said:
			
		

> ...Dick Cheney took over command of NORAD in June of 2001....unprecedented and then he allowed an alleged jet to get within the parameters of the Pentagon while giving stand down orders and we have testimony of that.
> *
> Norman Mineta testifying before the 9/11 Commission, though it was omitted from their final report. He told Lee Hamilton:
> 
> “During the time that the airplane was coming into the Pentagon, there was a young man who would come in and say to the Vice President…the plane is 50 miles out…the plane is 30 miles out…and when it got down to the plane is 10 miles out, the young man also said to the vice president “do the orders still stand?” And the Vice President turned and whipped his neck around and said “Of course the orders still stand, have you heard anything to the contrary!?”*


I'm well aware of Cheney's likely complicity and direct involvement in the 9/11 black operation. I believe the "plane" he was tracking on its inbound trajectory was the same one mistaken for a fighter interceptor by air traffic controllers in the D.C. area. It was, in all likelihood, the "commute jet" that struck the Pentagon.


----------



## rightwinger (Jul 15, 2016)

rightwinger said:


> I believe:
> 
> - When the towers and WTC7 were built they were wired with explosives so that someday they could be imploded on government command
> - Our leaders secretly planned to kill thousands of Americans on 9-11 and laughed maniacally as they did it
> ...



I believe

- The WTC was carefully imploded at exactly the point where the planes hit
- The building had been wired to explode for 30 years and they were just waiting for terrorists to attack


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## candycorn (Jul 15, 2016)

“phoenyx said:


> First of all, it's not -my- version of events, it's the version that the majority of the witnesses in the best positions to know the flight path the plane took in its final approach to the Pentagon. Secondly, I have never just "assumed" any of the witnesses were lying. If I had, I wouldn't have spent a considerable amount of time discussing various witnesses that he himself brought up with Faun.



Given that you were not present during the interviews; how do you know that CIT is telling you the truth in their highly edited presentations?  And without sworn/notarized affidavits from their actors err “witnesses” that can be verified…we can’t accept any of their fanciful yarns.


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## SAYIT (Jul 15, 2016)

psikeyhackr said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> > psikeyhackr said:
> ...



I don't have to prove it. Those charged with determining what was the most likely 9/11 scenario did all the heavy lifting for me (and you). You simply refuse to accept their findings (because they don't confirm your beliefs?) which include the observations and words of the firefighters _*who were there*_. Note that sources are attached to the NIST report which was the work of many talented and hard working individuals, independent professional groups, agencies and firms:

South Tower-   Collapse of the World Trade Center - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

North Tower-   Collapse of the World Trade Center - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

7WTC-   Collapse of the World Trade Center - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Capstone (Jul 15, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> I wouldn't be so sure about that. I strongly believe that atleast one of the alleged eyewitnesses that day was a plant: Lloyd England. CIT actually made an entire documentary of him, which can be seen here:


Lloyd England's account may well have been coerced, but it almost certainly wasn't fabricated _with the intention_ of fatally contradicting the official storyline.


phoenyx said:


> ...It's not that I think they -wanted- to mess up their own case, it's just that I think their coordination in their deception must have been pretty bad. ...


More like downright HORRENDOUS, if you're suggesting that several eyewitnesses were coerced into claiming that they saw a small commuter jet hit the Pentagon!!! What possible purpose would that have served?!

The light pole fabrication, on the other hand, would at least be understandable. In the aftermath of the smaller plane's impact, the still standing poles may have been seen as problematic to the official storyline, at which point mistakes could have been made in the rush to circumvent the perceived problem.




phoenyx said:


> Don Wright says he saw a commuter plane, two-engined, and was 2 miles away from the building. He also apparently elicited strange behavior when questioned about the direction it was going, ...


He was on the 12th floor of a nearby highrise building with a clear view of the Pentagon and the surrounding area. Still, it's entirely possible that he only caught sight of the plane after it had made its corkscrew  turn from the north (giving the appearance of a southern approach).



phoenyx said:


> ...Steve Patterson claims he saw a small commuter plane, holding 8-12 passengers. A little more on him:
> **Steve Patterson, 43, said he was watching television reports of the World Trade Center being hit when *he saw a silver commuter jet fly past the window of his 14th-floor apartment* in Pentagon City. The plane was about 150 yards away, approaching from the west about 20 feet off the ground, Patterson said. *He said the plane, which sounded like the high-pitched squeal of a fighter jet, flew over Arlington cemetary so low that he thought it was going to land on I-395*. He said it was flying so fast that he couldn't read any writing on the side. The plane, which appeared to hold about eight to 12 people, headed straight for the Pentagon but was flying as if coming in for a landing on a nonexistent runway, Patterson said. "At first I thought 'Oh my God, there's a plane truly misrouted from National,'" Patterson said. "Then this thing just became part of the Pentagon .‚.‚. I was watching the World Trade Center go and then this. It was like Oh my God, what's next?" *He said the plane, which approached the Pentagon below treetop level*, seemed to be flying normally for a plane coming in for a landing other than going very fast for being so low. Then, he said, *he saw the Pentagon "envelope" the plane and bright orange flames shoot out the back of the building*.**


Exactly.

The witnesses from nearby highrise buildings were close enough to see and hear what type of plane it was that struck the building. They were also close enough to SEE the impact.

Steven Gerard was another such witness.


Don Wright, Steve Patterson, and Steven Gerard all had the bird's eye view from a little distance, which explains why they failed to see some of the details (in terms of paint scheme and markings) described by Omar Campos, who was on the ground and much closer to the impact site.


			
				phoenyx said:
			
		

> ...Perhaps most importantly: he [Omar Campos] said he was near a building next to the Pentagon, and the only buildings near the Pentagon on the west side were on the -north- side, in the general location of the Arlington cemetary. This guy wasn't a south of Citgo flight path witness, he was a north of Citgo flight path witness, and if the plane flew in from north of Citgo, it couldn't have crashed into the building due to a number of reasons.


He was a grounds maintenance worker. The "building" he described was probably a utility/storage shed where the landscaping tools and lawn mowing equipment were stored.

In any case, he and his translator were interviewed at the scene, which is a very compelling indicator that he was in the proper proximity to see what he claimed he saw.


phoenyx said:


> ...There's a lot of reasons why Sandy Hook wasn't what we were told. I actually started a thread about it shortly after it occurred, can be seen here:
> The Sandy Hook Killings [W:24]


A piece of friendly advice: you need to stop linking to other discussion boards. It's against the rules here. Site administration doesn't like it when members promote the competition. You can count your lucky stars that apparently nobody has reported you so far. It's okay to link to blogs, YouTube, news sources, and the like, but links to other discussion boards WILL eventually get you banned here. Heads up.

FYI, I don't buy the official Sandy Hook narrative either. I was just making the point that data anomalies aren't really strong enough to be used as foundational for some of the claims made by Jayhan and others.

Yes, I'm aware that there are other problems concerning Flights 11 and 77 in particular, but Jayhan _starts with_ and places too much importance _on_ those BTS data anomalies, IMO.


----------



## psikeyhackr (Jul 15, 2016)

SAYIT said:


> I don't have to prove it. Those charged with determining what was the most likely 9/11 scenario did all the heavy lifting for me (and you). You simply refuse to accept their findings (because they don't confirm your beliefs?) which include the observations and words of the firefighters _*who were there*_. Note that sources are attached to the NIST report which was the work of many talented and hard working individuals, independent professional groups, agencies and firms:
> 
> South Tower-   Collapse of the World Trade Center - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> ...



I don't expect YOU to prove it, but no one has proven it to date.

Wikipedia just blathers other sources and no one has explained how the north tower could come down in less than 30 seconds and proven that their so called explanation is anything but pseudo-intellectual BS.

NO MODELS, physical or virtual. The NIST never even specifies the total amount of concrete in the TwinTowers though sources before 9/11 say it was 425,000 cubic yards.  But how was the mass of steel and concrete distributed in the towers?  How could a collapse analysis be done without that data?  Where has Steven Jones or Richard Gage asked about it?

psik


----------



## LA RAM FAN (Jul 15, 2016)

Hey everybody,have you all heard recently that there are doubts Oswald shot JFK by many people recently?


----------



## rightwinger (Jul 15, 2016)

I believe that George Bush pushed the button that imploded the towers

Bill Clinton helped him


----------



## MisterBeale (Jul 15, 2016)

Capstone said:


> As I see it, the question as to "what really happened on 9/11" should be approached in a way that doesn't downplay the importance of a certain series of events that preceded that darkest of days, from the wave of privatization that swept through NYC in the mid-to-late 90's (which resulted in a couple of key WTC security and elevator system contracts) to the major "renovations" and "modernization projects" that took place in the targeted buildings in the weeks and months leading up to the "attacks". In line with the doctrine of 'plausible deniability', there's little doubt in my mind that 9/11 was _years_ in the making and that several critical steps had been taken unwittingly by bought-and-paid-for politicians _as well as_ wittingly by a handful of teams of professional order-followers and operatives well in advance of 9/11/01.
> 
> In terms of some of the operational steps on the day of the "attacks", building on the premise that the targeted skyscrapers had indeed been rigged ahead of time under the pretext of a well-documented series of construction projects, I believe that Flights 11 and 175 were switched out in mid-flight for R/C drones and that the 2 legit airliners were then sent to rendezvous with Flight 93 (a passenger jumbo jet that had been secured and equpped in advance for R/C flight), onto which the passengers and any unwitting crew members from the diverted airliners were loaded with the intention of placing their bodies and personal effects in NYC.
> 
> ...



Nice post.   Here are more specific connections within the Deep State.


----------



## phoenyx (Jul 16, 2016)

candycorn said:


> “phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > First of all, it's not -my- version of events, it's the version that the majority of the witnesses in the best positions to know the flight path the plane took in its final approach to the Pentagon. Secondly, I have never just "assumed" any of the witnesses were lying. If I had, I wouldn't have spent a considerable amount of time discussing various witnesses that he himself brought up with Faun.
> ...



I have now created a thread exclusively made to discuss the Pentaplane flyover theory, which is CIT's theory as to what happened and the theory that Pilots for 9/11 Truth also tends to favour, and responded to your post there:
9/11: The Pentaplane Flyover Theory


----------



## rightwinger (Jul 16, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > “phoenyx said:
> ...



I like the part of the theory where the actual flight was flown to a remote location and Bush ordered they all be killed


----------



## phoenyx (Jul 16, 2016)

Capstone said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > Capstone said:
> ...



I have responded to this post of yours in the new thread I have created that specifically deals with the Pentagon Flyover Theory, which can be seen here:
9/11: The Pentaplane Flyover Theory


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## LA RAM FAN (Jul 16, 2016)

Capstone said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > I wouldn't be so sure about that. I strongly believe that atleast one of the alleged eyewitnesses that day was a plant: Lloyd England. CIT actually made an entire documentary of him, which can be seen here:
> ...



so cap since you and others here are so much worried about something from the PAST  long done and over with that happened so  long ago, instead of being concerned about the future and whats going on NOW,answer me this question.what are you going to do ABOUT IT?

what do you hope to achieve by going back and forth on this old issue. posting facts about how 9/11 was an inside job carried out by the mossad and CIA  when it has never gotten anybody anywhere?

you guys should be worried about SOLUTIONS to do something about it since something from the past is  such a a major big deal to you.

I was asked that question a long time ago and since it is a very good question and I had no answers,i moved on realising i really should be concerned with what our government is plotting against us NOW since as i have said a million times on 9/11 threads that 9/11 is the least of our problems we need to be concerned about from the government right now.

the major issue people SHOULD be concerned and focused on right NOW,IS Trump getting elected since that is the only chance we have of america being free from this facist dictatership it is now or cleaning up the corruption in washington where the REAL criminals behind this whole thing are roaming.

Its sad people rather be concerned about this old event from way back in the past  rather that what is going on NOW especially since out future is at stake here at being a free country again and breaking from for this facist dicatership run by all these criminals in washington who govern us.If HELLERY gets elected,it is GUARANTEED that will continue. Trump may be our last chance to be a free country again,that is whats at stake here right now.

I dont know,seems like that is a hell of a lot more important to me.


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## SAYIT (Jul 16, 2016)

9/11 inside job said:


> ...what do you hope to achieve by going back and forth on this old issue. posting facts about how 9/11 was an inside job carried out by the mossad and CIA  when it has never gotten anybody anywhere?



Maybe, just maybe, _none_ of the 9/11 CTs - including your CIA/Mossad theory - has "gotten anybody anywhere" because normal, rational peeps find them to be the ridiculous rantings of desperate, hate-filled fools.



9/11 inside job said:


> ...Its sad people rather be concerned about this old event from way back in the past  rather that what is going on NOW... I dont know,seems like that is a hell of a lot more important to me.



Aren't you the lame idiot who spends countless hours on the JFK assassination (which, BTW, happened _decades_ before 9/11), going so far as to promote your JFK CTs on these 9/11 boards? Does it ever occur to you that no rational poster cares about what is important to a flaming idiot? Do you ever wonder why your short bus was extra short?


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## LA RAM FAN (Jul 17, 2016)

someone farted in here.^


----------



## LA RAM FAN (Jul 17, 2016)

9/11 inside job said:


> Capstone said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
> ...




I'm WAITING. A reply to post# 73 that is.


----------



## LA RAM FAN (Jul 17, 2016)

9/11 inside job said:


> Hey everybody,have you all heard recently that there are doubts Oswald shot JFK by many people recently?




Im glad at least ONE person here agreed that was pretty funny.

I just wish it wasnt my arch enemy,USMB's resident paid shill who clicked on the funny.


----------



## Capstone (Jul 17, 2016)

Someone farted in here.


----------



## LA RAM FAN (Jul 18, 2016)

Capstone said:


> Someone farted in here.


so in translation you know you cant counter any of those good points knowing I am right so you wont address them so same as this OP here,you ALSO are content to waste your time on these shills like agent sayit. okay I see.


----------



## Capstone (Jul 18, 2016)

9/11 inside job said:


> so in translation you know you cant counter any of those good points knowing I am right so you wont address them so same as this OP here,you ALSO are content to waste your time on these shills like agent sayit. okay I see.


Well, if _anyone_ would know how to translate that retarded phrase, I suppose it'd be the guy who's used it *tens of thousands* of times!


----------



## LA RAM FAN (Jul 18, 2016)

Capstone said:


> 9/11 inside job said:
> 
> 
> > so in translation you know you cant counter any of those good points knowing I am right so you wont address them so same as this OP here,you ALSO are content to waste your time on these shills like agent sayit. okay I see.
> ...



evade mode from you again. post#73 still stands,you just dont have any answers for a point you know to be true..

the fart jokes i indeed have used  tens of thousands of times because thats  the ONLY reply any of these shills such as sayit should EVER receive the fact their lies have been addressed,exposed  and debunked tens of thousands of times over the years.

you cant even answer a couple of simple questions.what are you going to do about it and why are you so worried about the past instead of whats going on now?

why not worry about SOLUTIONS instead of what happened YEARS ago?
HARDLY anything complicated there in those few  questions to answer.


I dont know,maybe I am just nutty to be concerned about the future and whats going on NOW rather than worry about the past.


----------



## Capstone (Jul 18, 2016)

^


----------



## LA RAM FAN (Jul 18, 2016)

yep evade mode.


----------



## phoenyx (Jul 23, 2016)

hadit said:


> and in this case the physical evidence clearly shows that two planes flew into the WTC and one into the Pentagon.



We clearly don't agree on that point...



hadit said:


> Yes, the government lies to us and yes, the government does do things that are detrimental to the country,



I'm glad we can agree on that part atleast.



hadit said:


> but that does not mean that a government conspiracy is responsible for everything that happens.



Certainly. But in this case, I strongly believe that a faction within the government orchestrated the attacks.



hadit said:


> It certainly does not mean that the Jews are once again taking over the world.



Personally, I think the main force behind the attack was American, though I do believe there was some Israeli involvement, particularly when it came to the collapse of the Twin Towers and Building 7. 



hadit said:


> Sometimes people manage to pull off something so monstrous, so devastating that it seems inconceivable that they could do it without a massive government conspiracy to help them.



Indeed.



hadit said:


> Sometimes a sniper's bullet finds a president's head,



Or multiple sniper's bullets finds a president's head...



hadit said:


> sometimes a group of terrorists fly planes into buildings.



Or atleast that's what people are led to believe...



hadit said:


> We don't like to think that so few people can do so much damage so easily,



It all depends on the "few people" you're talking about...


----------



## hadit (Jul 25, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > and in this case the physical evidence clearly shows that two planes flew into the WTC and one into the Pentagon.
> ...


In this case we're talking about people who understand how a low tech attack can take by surprise a people who rely on high tech defenses.  Sure, if they had launched an ICBM at the US, we'd probably have shot it down or at the least turned the place it came from into a parking lot, but they knew our policy on highjackers was to give them whatever they demanded in the hope that we could get the hostages back.  That means they knew there was no way any of the airliners would be shot down, which in turn meant they knew they had a clear shot at their chosen targets.  They won't do it that way again because we would stop them before they could hit their targets, so they use other methods.


----------



## phoenyx (Jul 25, 2016)

hadit said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > hadit said:
> ...



Actually, the planes could have been shot down up until around June 2001, and once again shortly after September 11, 2001. The rules were changed in between those time periods, though, making America's air defense terribly vulnerable:
**
_"The decades-old procedure for a quick response by the nation's air defense had been changed in June of 2001. Now, instead of NORAD's military commanders being able to issue the command to launch fighter jets, approval had to be sought from the civilian Defense Secretary, Donald Rumsfeld. This change is extremely significant, because Mr. Rumsfeld claims to have been "out of the loop" nearly the entire morning of 9/11. ... The families of the vanished bodies and unsettled souls of 9/11 are still waiting to have the dots connected."

June 21, 2004, New York Observer, '9/11 Tapes Reveal Ground Personnel Muffled Attacks'_
**

Source: The Failure to Intercept: Questions for Bush, Rumsfeld, FAA about 911 activities

Below is an excerpt from an interview with a former Air Traffic Controller, Robin Hordon:
**
_After eleven eventful years as an ATC, Hordon naturally reacted with shock when he first heard that fifty years of tried and true in-flight emergency protocol was abruptly altered in June of 2001, just two months before the attacks.

“Rumsfeld put a third party in between the ATC and the Air Defense Controller responsible for scrambling interceptors —the Pentagon.”

He speculates that “the phone calls went from the FAA to the Pentagon and were not answered. Therefore the Pentagon never reached down to the ADC base to release the aircraft. The Boston Center’s ATCs got so frustrated with the non-answer from the military that they finally said, ‘get these guys going anyways.’ That’s the way it’s been for fifty years. We scramble aircraft. We don’t wait for OK’s from third or fourth parties.”

The no-show status of the U.S. military on the morning of September 11th, 2001, has understandably become the single most compelling point that 9/11 researchers, writers and activists use to support their claims of complicity on the part of the U.S government (and its military and intelligence apparatus) in the attacks. When even those who condemn “conspiracy theory” in regard to 9/11 have questioned the military’s conduct that morning, it’s clear that this anomaly is worthy of intense concern and diligent investigation. Whatever the case may be, there are no doubts that history’s largest and most technologically advanced military was apparently caught completely off guard by four huge hijacked passenger jets that were in the air for almost two hours on the crystal clear morning of 9/11._**

Source: The First Fifteen Minutes of September 11th

The procedure was changed back to normal shortly after 9/11.


----------



## hadit (Jul 26, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
> ...


And if the planes had been foreign fighter jets or bombers, aka a clear threat, there would have been no question.  Remember, we were dealing with unknowns.  We didn't know where the planes were going to be flown, what was going to be done with them, if there were going to be ransom demands, anything.  At that point, we couldn't risk shooting them down because of the passengers.


----------



## Skylar (Jul 26, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> There have been threads in this forum that address the general issue of what happened on 9/11. That being said, I have found that a lot of them are not neutral in their title- their titles imply that they are either for or against an official narrative. I started a thread with the same title as this one in another forum and after over 1000 posts, I think it's been fairly successful. Not sure if it'll work out here, but I thought I'd give it a go. I'll start by responding to someone who asked me to outline my view of what happened on 9/11 and who was behind it...
> 
> I've heard many theories as to what happened at the World Trade Center. As to the general outline of what happened on 9/11, I think I'll start with the general outline of both the official narrative of events, as well as the generally accepted outline of what those who disagree with it is, as outlined in a documentary film called Zeitgeist...
> 
> ...



ADIZ were designed to track planes coming into the US from outside the US. Not to track commercial airliners within the US. For domestic air travel transponders are used. NORAD didn't know about the hijacking of any of the planes until someone at a civilian air traffic control tower called and told them.

Which in the case of 2 of the planes was after the planes had already impacted. Making your 'evading ADIZ' claims disingenuous at best. And startlingly misinformed at worst.


----------



## Skylar (Jul 26, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> Capstone said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
> ...



A theory, which as we've discussed, is pointlessly elaborate and contradicted by overwhelming evidence. The transponders from Flight 77 was pulled from the pentagon, as were the bodies of the passengers on the plane. Engine parts matching the model of plane ordered by American Airlines were found inside the Pentagon. Not simply the type of plane, but the exact variant that American Airlines order; the RB211. Records both within the plane and tracking the plane confirm that Flight 77 impacted with the Pentagon.

You ignore it all. A rational person wouldn't. 

Worse, your theory is wildly illogical. As the attackers on 911 clearly had no problem crashing planes into buildings. Why then would they risk being discovered, add the complication of having to get rid of the plane, plant mountains of evidence, fold in hundreds of improptu co-conspirators, fake records, fake all the DNA records and autopsies of the passengers, fold in news crews and first responders,......

.....when they could just crash the plane into the pentagon and get the exact same results?

You have no credible explanation for this. You have no credible explanation for the mountains of physical and eye witness evidence that contradicts you.  Your theory is irrational, poorly thought through, contradicted by evidence, and quite simply a terrible explanation of events.


----------



## phoenyx (Jul 27, 2016)

Skylar said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > I have responded to this post of yours in the new thread I have created that specifically deals with the Pentagon Flyover Theory, which can be seen here:
> ...



...and can continue discussing, in the thread I made to specifically discuss the Pentagon Flyover theory. I've responded to your post here.


----------



## phoenyx (Jul 27, 2016)

hadit said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > hadit said:
> ...



No question of what?



hadit said:


> Remember, we were dealing with unknowns.



ATC were dealing with known hijackings. Up until July 31, 1997, commanders in the field could have done anything, up to shoot down planes, without the need to get approval from the Secretary of Defense (Donald Rumsfeld at the time of 9/11). This order was modified slightly in June 2001, so that commanders in the field could now intercept, but they still couldn't shoot down a plane without Rumsfeld's permission. There was more blocking the U.S.'s air defense on 9/11, however:
**_If it is true that the standing orders would have required approval by the Secretary of Defense for intercepts on 9/11/01, then, in theory, a defacto stand-down could have been implemented by the secretary simply failing to act during the crisis. However, it is doubtful that insiders planning the attack would have relied on the orders alone to assure that there was no effective military response to the attack. It was likely one of a number of "fixes" that included multiple war games planned on the day of the attack. Thus, even if commanders violated standing orders and ordered intercepts of the commandeered jetliners, they would face depleted interceptor resources and corrupted flight data._**

Source: 9-11 Review: The 'Stand-Down Order'



hadit said:


> We didn't know where the planes were going to be flown



Irrelevant. If the planes were truly passenger airplanes, they were much slower then military jets. The jets had plenty of time to intercept them, and would have, if they had been sent to the actual planes. Instead, we get reports like the following:
**_*DID NAVY CONTROLLERS SEND THE JETS THE WRONG WAY?*
After being delayed during takeoff, things got significantly worse for the Langley jets. Major Kevin Nasypany, the NEADS mission crew commander, had ordered them to fly north, toward the Baltimore area. [21] But at around 9:34 a.m., William Huckabone noticed that instead they were going east over the ocean, toward a military training airspace called Whiskey 386. [22] As a result, when the Pentagon was hit at 9:37 a.m., the Langley fighters were about 150 miles from there--further away from the Pentagon than they had been when they took off. [23]

The 9/11 Commission put forward rather elaborate reasons why the jets headed in the wrong direction, such as that the scramble order had not conveyed complete instructions for the pilots to follow, and that "a 'generic' flight plan--prepared to get the aircraft airborne and out of local airspace quickly--incorrectly led the Langley fighters to believe they were ordered to fly due east ... for 60 miles." [24]

However, evidence shows that the question of why the jets went so drastically off course requires further investigation. For example, a Navy facility was responsible for handling the F-16s while they were out over the ocean. The Fleet Area Control and Surveillance Facility in Virginia Beach, Virginia, is the Navy air traffic control agency that handles all over-water military operations. It is known by the call sign "Giant Killer." [25] When Nasypany asked Major James Fox--the leader of the NEADS weapons team--why the Langley jets had flown out over the ocean, Fox replied, "Giant Killer sent them out there." [26] Certainly, what little has been reported about the actions of this facility appears quite bizarre and suspicious._**

Source: Shoestring 9/11: The F-16s That Failed to Protect Washington on 9/11: Was the Langley Jets' Emergency Response Sabotaged?


----------



## phoenyx (Jul 27, 2016)

Skylar said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > There have been threads in this forum that address the general issue of what happened on 9/11. That being said, I have found that a lot of them are not neutral in their title- their titles imply that they are either for or against an official narrative. I started a thread with the same title as this one in another forum and after over 1000 posts, I think it's been fairly successful. Not sure if it'll work out here, but I thought I'd give it a go. I'll start by responding to someone who asked me to outline my view of what happened on 9/11 and who was behind it...
> ...



For those in the audience who don't know what ADIZ means:
**The *Air Defense Identification Zone* (*ADIZ*) is an area surrounding much of North America – namely airspace surrounding the United States andCanada – in which the ready identification, location, and control of civil aircraft over land or water is required in the interest of national security.[1] This ADIZ is jointly administered by the civilian air traffic control authorities and the militaries of both nations, under the auspices of the North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD). The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) handles the requests of international aircraft and Transport Canada handles Canadian requests. Any aircraft flying in these zones without authorization may be identified as a threat and treated as an enemy aircraft, potentially leading to interception by fighter aircraft.

An aircraft entering an ADIZ is required to radio its planned course, destination, and any additional details about its trip through the ADIZ to a higher authority, typically an air traffic controller. The aircraft must also be equipped with a radar transponder.**

Source: Air Defense Identification Zone (North America) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Skylar said:


> For domestic air travel transponders are used. NORAD didn't know about the hijacking of any of the planes until someone at a civilian air traffic control tower called and told them.
> 
> Which in the case of 2 of the planes was after the planes had already impacted. Making your 'evading ADIZ' claims disingenuous at best. And startlingly misinformed at worst.



I think you're overlooking something here. Namely the war games that were going on during 9/11:
**
*WAR GAMES ON SEPTEMBER 11TH*
*On the very morning of 9/11/01, five war games and terror drills were being conducted by several U.S. defense agencies, including one "live fly" exercise using REAL planes. Then-Acting Head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Air Force General Richard B. Myers, admitted to 4 of the war games in congressional testimony -- see transcript here or video here (6 minutes and 12 seconds into the video).*
*Norad had run drills for several years of planes being used as weapons against the World Trade Center and other U.S. high-profile buildings, and "numerous types of civilian and military aircraft were used as mock hijacked aircraft". In other words, drills using REAL AIRCRAFT simulating terrorist attacks crashing jets into buildings, including the twin towers, were run. See also official military website showing 2000 military drill, using miniatures, involving a plane crashing into the Pentagon.*
*Indeed, a former Los Angeles police department investigator, whose newsletter is read by 45 members of congress, both the house and senate intelligence committees, and professors at more than 40 universities around the world, claims that he obtained an on-the-record confirmation from NORAD that ON 9/11, NORAD and the Joint Chiefs of Staff were conducting a joint, live-fly, hijack exercise which involved government-operated aircraft POSING AS HIJACKED AIRLINERS.*
*On September 11th, the government also happened to be running a simulation of a plane crashing into a building.*
*In addition, a December 9, 2001 Toronto Star article (pay-per-view; reprinted here), stated that "Operation Northern Vigilance is called off. Any simulated information, what's known as an 'inject,' is purged from the screens". This indicates that there were false radar blips inserted onto air traffic controllers' screens as part of the war game exercises.*
*Moreover, there are indications that some of the major war games previously scheduled for October 2001 were MOVED UP to September 11th by persons unknown.*
*Interestingly, Vice President Cheney was apparently in charge of ALL of the war games and coordinated the government's "response" to the attacks. See this Department of State announcement; this CNN article; and this previously-cited essay.*
*And while the government has consistently stated that it did not know where the aircraft were before they struck, this short video clip of the Secretary of Transportation's testimony before the 9/11 Commission shows that Cheney monitored flight 77 for many miles as it approached the Pentagon. How could one of the most heavily-defended buildings in the world have been successfully attacked, when the Vice President of the United States, in charge of counter-terrorism on 9/11, watched it approach from many miles away?*
*Moreover, a former air traffic controller, who knows the flight corridor which the two planes which hit the Twin Towers flew "like the back of my hand" and who handled two actual hijackings says that that planes can be tracked on radar even when their transponders are turned off, and that Donald Rumsfeld and the Pentagon tracked three of the four flights from the point of their hijacking to hitting their targets (also, listen to this interview).*
*Additionally, this diagram shows that the hijacked planes flew over numerous military bases on 9/11 before crashing. See also this essay regarding the stand down of the military; and see this war game proposal created before 9/11 revolving around Bin Laden and including "live-fly exercises" involving real planes, later confirmed by this official Department of Defense website.*
*Which scenario is more likely from a strictly logistical perspective:*
*(1) An outsider sitting in a cave defeating the air defense system of the sole military superpower; or*
*(2) Someone like Cheney -- who on 9/11 apparently had full control over all defense, war game and counter-terrorism powers -- rigging and gaming the system?*
*Remember that for the attacks to have succeeded, it was necessary that actions be taken in the middle of the war games and the actual attacks which would thwart the normal military response. For example, Cheney watched flight 77 approach the Pentagon from many miles out, but instructed the military to do nothing (as shown in the testimony of the Secretary of Transportation, linked above). Could Bin Laden have done that?*
*Fighter jets were also sent far off-course over the Atlantic Ocean in the middle of the attacks (testimony of Senator Mark Dayton), so as to neutralize their ability to intercept the hijacked airliners. Could Osama Bin Laden and his sent-from-the-cave band of followers have exercised this degree of control over the military? Obviously not.*
*And air traffic controllers claim they were still tracking what they thought were hijacked planes long after all 4 of the real planes had crashed. This implies that false radar blips remained on their screens after all 4 planes went down, long after the military claims they purged the phantom war-game-related radar signals. Could Bin Laden have interfered with the full purging of false radar blips inserted as part of the war games? In other words, could Bin Laden have overridden the purging process so that some false blips remained and confused air traffic controllers? The answer is clear.*
*Therefore, it is statistically much more likely that Cheney and/or other high-level U.S. government and military officials pulled the 9/11 trigger than that Bin Laden did it. At the very least, they took affirmative steps to guarantee that the hijackers' attacks succeeded.*
*As discussed previously, a former air force colonel and director of the Star Wars program stated "If our government had merely done nothing, and allowed normal procedures to happen on that morning of 9/11, the twin towers would still be standing, and thousands of dead Americans would still be alive.  [T]hat is treason" ***

Source: 911 Proof


----------



## Skylar (Jul 27, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> Skylar said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
> ...



And for those who want to know how ADIZ work in this country, its illustrated simply by this photo:






ADIZ are pointed outward, surrounding the US. They were not used for tracking civilian aircraft within the US until AFTER the 911.



> The first ADIZ was established by the United States on December 27, 1950, shortly after President Truman had proclaimed a national emergency during the Korean War. [4] Following the September 11 attacks in 2001, when civilian commercial aircraft were utilized for mass destruction, ADIZ became prominent as a tool by which to monitor and control foreign aircraft entering a given national airspace.
> 
> Air Defense Identification Zone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Instead, the monitoring of US airspace on 911 was delegated to the Air Route Traffic Control Centers. Which is a civilian network that wasn't directly connected to NORAD or the ADIZ on 911.





All of which phoenyx knows. But *really* hopes you don't. He wants you to believe that ADIZ and ARTCC are the same thing, despite knowing full well that they weren't.

And his 'evading the ADIZ' claims were a load of steaming horseshit. An over the US mainland ADIZ didn't exist until 2003, limited explicitly to Washington DC.


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## Divine Wind (Jul 27, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> I would like to ask anyone who sides with the official narrative if they essentially agree with this narrative..


Yes, I do.   Evade NORAD?  Do you even know what NORAD does and how the US air traffic control system works?  It's not like they flew those planes from Russia.

As for conspiracy theories, the problem with them is that most not only take hundreds, if not thousands of people to carry out, but for all of those people to never, ever speak of it.  

How many Americans would keep their mouths shut about an operation which killed thousands of other Americans?  10%?  50%?  90%?  Someone would talk and, from my experiences with both the military and our government, I know a lot of them would talk.  In fact, I doubt the operation could be done for lack of cooperation.


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## Skylar (Jul 27, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > I would like to ask anyone who sides with the official narrative if they essentially agree with this narrative..
> ...



P knows full well how ADIZ work.The picture I pulled of ADIZ was from the very same webpage that he drew his quote. P knew that the ADIZ surrounded the US mainland on 911. He knew that his 'evading ADIZ' horseshit was a profound misrepresentation and deeply dishonest.

But as is so common among conspiracy theorists, their arguments require an ignorant audience. As his argument is dependent on his readers NOT knowing what ADIZ are, how they work, or what they do.


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## phoenyx (Jul 28, 2016)

Skylar said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > Skylar said:
> ...



Reminds me of some lines from V for Vendetta:
"_A man as smart as you
has probably considered this.
A man as smart as you
probably has a plan._"

Fact of the matter is, I didn't even know what ADIZ stood for until I googled it . But go on, make me out to be some villain that knows it all, it's entertaining if nothing else . I also see that you didn't address the points I made in the post you're responding to at all, namely the war games going on on 9/11.



Skylar said:


> And his 'evading the ADIZ' claims were a load of steaming horseshit.



Actually, I wrote:
"_19 hijackers, directed by Osama Bin Laden, took over 4 commercial jets
with box cutters and, while evading the Air Defense System (NORAD), hit
75% of their targets."_

No mention of ADIZ; like I said, I didn't even know what that meant, until you brought it up. Furthermore, the quote above wasn't actually my own words, they were part of the summary given in a documentary film named Zeitgeist. Based on what I know now, I definitely think that the ARTCC/ATC should have been mentioned. For those in the audience who haven't heard of the ARTCC before (like me, before I googled it), ARTCC stands for Air Route Traffic Control Center. NASA goes into more detail:
**
*Center or Air Route Traffic Control Center (ARTCC)*
_The first Air Traffic Control Center originated at Newark Airport, Newark, New Jersey, as a privately operatedventure formed by cooperative airline companies in October 1935. On July 8, 1936 the Department of Commerce's Civil Aeronautical Administration assumed operation of the air traffic responsibilities.

ARTCCs, usually referred to as "Centers," are established primarily to provide Air Traffic Service to aircraft operating on IFR flight plans within the controlled airspace, and principally during the en route phase of flight. There are 21 Air Route Traffic Control Centers (ARTCC)in the United States. Any aircraft operating under Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) within the confines of an ARTCC's airspace is controlled by air traffic controllers at the Center. This includes all sorts of different types of aircraft: privately owned single engine aircraft, commuter airlines, military jets and commercial airlines.

The Federal Aviation Administration has made a long-term investment of tax dollars by providing the finest air traffic control service in the world. The largest component of the national airspace system is the Air Route Traffic Control Center (ARTCC). Each ARTCC covers thousands of square miles encompassing all or part of several states. ARTCCs are built to ensure safe and expeditious air travel. All Centers operate 7 days a week, 24 hours a day and employ a combination of several hundred Air Traffic Control Specialists, Electronic Technicians, Computer System Specialists, Environmental Support Specialists, and administrative staff._**

Source: Air Traffic Management | Nasa

Speaking of the ARTCC, they were dealing with known hijackings. Up until July 31, 1997, commanders in the field could have done anything, even shoot down planes, without the need to get approval from the Secretary of Defense (Donald Rumsfeld at the time of 9/11). This order was modified slightly in June 2001, so that commanders in the field could now intercept, but they still couldn't shoot down a plane without Rumsfeld's permission. There was more blocking the U.S.'s air defense on 9/11, however:
**_If it is true that the standing orders would have required approval by the Secretary of Defense for intercepts on 9/11/01, then, in theory, a defacto stand-down could have been implemented by the secretary simply failing to act during the crisis. However, it is doubtful that insiders planning the attack would have relied on the orders alone to assure that there was no effective military response to the attack. It was likely one of a number of "fixes" that included multiple war games planned on the day of the attack. Thus, even if commanders violated standing orders and ordered intercepts of the commandeered jetliners, they would face depleted interceptor resources and corrupted flight data._**
_
Source: 9-11 Review: The 'Stand-Down Order'_


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## phoenyx (Jul 28, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > I've heard many theories as to what happened at the World Trade Center. As to the general outline of what happened on 9/11, I think I'll start with the general outline of both the official narrative of events, as well as the generally accepted outline of what those who disagree with it is, as outlined in a documentary film called Zeitgeist...
> ...



Well, atleast you aren't assuming that I'm some villainous know it all that is hiding information to further his nefarious claims . I think the director of Zeitgeist did a pretty good job in his documentary, but he may have not been up to snuff on the fact that the FAA's ARTCCs handled air traffic within the U.S.



Divine.Wind said:


> As for conspiracy theories, the problem with them is that most not only take hundreds, if not thousands of people to carry out, but for all of those people to never, ever speak of it.



Have you ever heard of information security compartmentalization? Just in case you haven't:
**
_In matters concerning information security, whether public or private sector, *compartmentalization* is the limiting of access to information to persons or other entities who need to know it in order to perform certain tasks.

The concept originated in the handling of classified information in military and intelligence applications, though it dates back to antiquity, and was used to successfully keep the secret of Greek fire.[1]

The basis for compartmentalization is the idea that, if fewer people know the details of a mission or task, the risk or likelihood that such information will be compromised or fall into the hands of the opposition is decreased. Hence, varying levels of clearance within organizations exist. Yet, even if someone has the highest clearance, certain "compartmentalized" information, identified by codewordsreferring to particular types of secret information, may still be restricted to certain operators, even with a lower overall security clearance. Information marked this way is said to be *codeword–classified*. One famous example of this was the Ultra secret, where documents were marked "Top Secret Ultra": "Top Secret" marked its security level, and the "Ultra" keyword further restricted its readership to only those cleared to read "Ultra" documents.[2]_
**
Source: Compartmentalization (information security) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Using compartmentalization, while many people may have unwittingly participated in 9/11, most of them didn't actually need to know what was truly happening. Of those who were likely to figure it out after the fact, they were probably killed. Some if not all of those killed may have later been said to have died as passengers on the doomed flights, or actually died at the Pentagon and WTC buildings. I definitely believe some near the very top had to have known what was going on. Here's a small clip from the pilot episode of an Xfiles spinoff that gets the gist of it:

One last thing: some witnesses on 9/11 may have been deemed to know 'too much' and thus killed off. There is evidence that this has occurred:


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## Divine Wind (Jul 28, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> ...Have you ever heard of information security compartmentalization? ...


Yes.  I was a career military officer with a TS clearance while working at MAG-16, but downgraded back to Secret when I went back to my squadron since part of compartmentalization is "a need to know". 

What you are talking about goes beyond compartmentalization.  It's murder and treason.  Any military or government personnel who took part would be violating their oaths to support and defend the Constitution. An operation as you suggest would take hundreds to execute and thousands more to cover up.


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## candycorn (Jul 28, 2016)

Skylar said:


> Divine.Wind said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
> ...



You’re accusing a conspiracy theorist of dishonesty?  Next you’ll be telling us that water is wet.  

The litmus test is that you need a plausible explanation for the physical evidence.  Saying “they’re making it all up” is not plausible.  
This is why I believe the 9/11 Commission; it makes sense.  Nothing else accounts for the physical evidence.

For this, I get called a government shill or whatever.  Thats fine.  

The thing is that I apply it to the JFK matter also.  I find it very hard to believe that Lee Oswald was able to defect from the US to Russia then back from Russia to the US during the height of the cold war.  From all outward appearances, he was not some brilliant mathematician or violinist or even that good of an employee.  His contributions to either society were minimal so why welcome him back at all?  The number of people who were able to defect—twice—between the world super powers is probably very low.  If someone knows how many did so during the 60’s..please let me know but I’m guessing you could count it on your hands and feet and have several fingers and toes left over.  Then…he just happens to have the only job he’s capable of having—a menial job lugging boxes in  Dallas—right smack dab on a presidential motorcade route?  I don’t worry too much about his being the lone gunman or whatever.  I think he was capable but the* physical evidence of his moving from the US to Russia then back to the US is suspect. * That he just happened to be on the motorcade route is maybe just the fickle finger of fate but the odds of one of the few who were able to pull off a double defection to the world’s two super powers being on the motorcade route?  

Physical evidence is a bitch.


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## phoenyx (Jul 28, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > ...Have you ever heard of information security compartmentalization? ...
> ...



Alright.



Divine.Wind said:


> What you are talking about goes beyond compartmentalization.  It's murder and treason.



What I'm suggesting is that if you were going to commit murder (something which the U.S. military arguably does all the time overseas, just generally not against its own people), the perpetrators would be wise to compartmentalize the objective as much as possible. Do you disagree? As to treason, I imagine they could argue they were doing no such thing. Tell me, have you ever heard of a think tank group called PNAC, or Project for a New American Century?



Divine.Wind said:


> Any military or government personnel who took part would be violating their oaths to support and defend the Constitution.



By the standards of many, I agree. That being said, I imagine that some could imagine they hadn't, just as some in the Bush administration came up with fancy words for permitting torture, such as "enemy combatant", "rendition" and "enhanced interrogation techniques" to weasel their way out of following the Geneva Conventions on Torture. 



Divine.Wind said:


> An operation as you suggest would take hundreds to execute and thousands more to cover up.



It's easy to bandy numbers about, but I'd like you to offer some evidence that it would require more then a few key people to actually -know- what was being done. And while you're at it, I'd like to know if you have atleast -considered- the possibility that the numerous war games that were taking place on 9/11 were used as part of the 9/11 operation itself. To do so, you may wish to read and respond to my post #92 in this thread, which describes these war games, with many embedded links within the text.


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## rightwinger (Jul 28, 2016)

I believe that on 9-11 Bush and Clinton flipped a coin to get to see who does the controlled demo of the WTC.....Bush won

Clinton was pissed that he didn't get to blow anything up so Bush let him blow up WTC7


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## LA RAM FAN (Jul 28, 2016)

someone farted in here.^


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## rightwinger (Jul 28, 2016)

Every President since Nixon was looking for a chance to blow up the towers. They were just waiting for the time when someone would fly jet airplanes into them

They used to carry around a briefcase with launch codes and a big red button. The cover story they told Americans was that it was just in case they wanted to launch a nuclear attack....in reality, it was the button for WTC controlled demo






Controlled demo "football"


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## PredFan (Jul 28, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> There have been threads in this forum that address the general issue of what happened on 9/11. That being said, I have found that a lot of them are not neutral in their title- their titles imply that they are either for or against an official narrative. I started a thread with the same title as this one in another forum and after over 1000 posts, I think it's been fairly successful. Not sure if it'll work out here, but I thought I'd give it a go. I'll start by responding to someone who asked me to outline my view of what happened on 9/11 and who was behind it...
> 
> I've heard many theories as to what happened at the World Trade Center. As to the general outline of what happened on 9/11, I think I'll start with the general outline of both the official narrative of events, as well as the generally accepted outline of what those who disagree with it is, as outlined in a documentary film called Zeitgeist...
> 
> ...



I agree that it is the best guess based on the evidence.



phoenyx said:


> As to what I believe, this is exemplified by the concluding statement of Zeitgeist in its 9/11 section:
> ***
> _Criminal Elements within the US government staged a "false flag" terror
> attack on its own citizens, in order to manipulate public perception
> ...



No shock that you believe that. I am very sure that no one in our government is that smart nor are they all able to keep silent.



phoenyx said:


> For anyone considering responding to this thread for the first time, I ask that you consider briefly pointing out what you think happened on 9/11; it can be as simple as stating that you believe in one of the 2 summaries outlined above, or it can be more detailed. At that point, I will endeavour to comment on your entry, and explain why I agree or disagree with your point of view.



I already said that I believe the official investigation has the best guess and is the most likely true. The fact that it has a lot of holes in the theory is exactly why it's not a lie. If the official theory had all of the answers, all the "i"'s dotted and all the "t"s crossed, I'd be suspicious. Investigations don't work like in the movies. Often times the REAL whole story can never be truly known.

As far as an inside job, you'd have to prove that and no one has ever been able to.


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## rightwinger (Jul 28, 2016)

This is the remote control that Bush used to fly AA Flight 93 into the Pentagon


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## LA RAM FAN (Jul 28, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > I would like to ask anyone who sides with the official narrative if they essentially agree with this narrative..
> ...


you should start a comedy club.

first off,if they talked,they would wind up as a mysterious dead body same as so many of them did when they came forward and said they heard explosions going off in the basements before they collapsed.

Oh and it was ISRAEL along with many covert operaters in the CIA that was behind it all,not americans.you dont seem to be able to grasp it that the CIA is an evil organization that doesnt do what we are TOLD they do which is spy on other countries when the TRUTH is they have been involved in secret covert wars ever since the 1940's.

You dont know your history either very well. the CIA way back in the 50's  ran a secret war against Indonisia that VP Nixon under Eisnerhower was in charge of that involved THOUSANDS.that was kept a secret from the american people for YEARS. they had no idea that was going on back then and for many years charlie. that war was so secret even Eisenhower did not know about it.they kept him out of the loop of it all.

Originally the CIA was established to spy on americans and report their findings directly to the president but it became an out of control evil organization that are involved in political assassinations around thew world as well as smuggling drugs into the country. many CIA officers have come forward and said so. They went public about it writing a book about it to make sure they stayed alive.If they go public,then they cant kill them because that just reinforces everything they have said about them,got it? good.lol  when they cant kill you,they do the next best thing which is try to discredit you.

are you even aware that there were over a 100 witnesses to the JFK assassination who came forward and said they saw a second gunman and that the majority wound up dying in mysterious deaths afterwards? obviously not i see.

well same thing with 9/11. many people who came forward and gave versions different than the government ended up dying mysterious deaths as well.

oh and like five years ago or so,E Howard Hunt who was a CIA operative under Nixon and ran covert operations for him-remember watergate where Nixon erased the his tapes and there was a 9 and a half gap missing? well part of it he overlooked and did not erase,he was caught saying -That scab Hunt.He is a dangerous loose cannon.He worries me.if he isnt paid off,that whole bay of pigs thing will come out. One of Nixons cabinet members said that what Nixon was ACTUALLY referring to was the whole kennedy assassination thing.Him and Johnson were involved in that up to their ears.what deserted island you been living on.

I bring all that up because toward the end of his death,Hunt made a deathbed confession that the CIA was behind the JFK assassination and Nixon and Johnson had a huge hand in it as you can hear for yourself in this video.

several years from now,we'll probably hear whistle blowers on 9/11 come forward as well like Hunt.

son you have been taken to school here.


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## LA RAM FAN (Jul 28, 2016)

PredFan said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > There have been threads in this forum that address the general issue of what happened on 9/11. That being said, I have found that a lot of them are not neutral in their title- their titles imply that they are either for or against an official narrative. I started a thread with the same title as this one in another forum and after over 1000 posts, I think it's been fairly successful. Not sure if it'll work out here, but I thought I'd give it a go. I'll start by responding to someone who asked me to outline my view of what happened on 9/11 and who was behind it...
> ...



this troll cracks me up.He goes around defending the warren commission that oswald was the lone assassin all the time and once years ago when I countered his lies,i sent him a pm that said-Im waiting.waiting for you to address my evidence. since he did not reply when i addressed him.lol

He then threw a temper tantrem and called me names and put me on ignore and has had me on ignore ever since because I took him to school and proved him wrong.

this troll claims nobody has been able to prove it because he only sees what he WANTS to see same as he does in the JFK assassination,so of course in HIS own warped mind,nobody has proved it because he puts people on ignore when they DO prove it.


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## LA RAM FAN (Jul 28, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> Divine.Wind said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
> ...



so much for the hilarious argument that someone would have talked theory.lol just as I got done proving,9/11 is the same as the JFK assassination where people who DID come forward and give explanations different than the governments version of events,endyed up paying the price getting murdererd off and having their deaths disguised as suicides,car crashs,heart attacks,ect,ect  there was even one lady who came on alex jones show saying she heard explosions going off in the basements and if she died soon do not believe the official version of her death,that she would never take her own life. Guess how she died? an alleged suicide hanging.

yep no murder by the government there.


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## phoenyx (Jul 29, 2016)

PredFan said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > There have been threads in this forum that address the general issue of what happened on 9/11. That being said, I have found that a lot of them are not neutral in their title- their titles imply that they are either for or against an official narrative. I started a thread with the same title as this one in another forum and after over 1000 posts, I think it's been fairly successful. Not sure if it'll work out here, but I thought I'd give it a go. I'll start by responding to someone who asked me to outline my view of what happened on 9/11 and who was behind it...
> ...



I'm glad we atleast agree that it is a theory (which some might call an educated guess) rather than a proven fact.



PredFan said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > As to what I believe, this is exemplified by the concluding statement of Zeitgeist in its 9/11 section:
> ...



How are you so sure?



PredFan said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > For anyone considering responding to this thread for the first time, I ask that you consider briefly pointing out what you think happened on 9/11; it can be as simple as stating that you believe in one of the 2 summaries outlined above, or it can be more detailed. At that point, I will endeavour to comment on your entry, and explain why I agree or disagree with your point of view.
> ...



Well, we can certainly agree that the real whole story is not currently known. Could you elaborate on what you believe the holes in the official story are? Personally, I would rather have a conversation where we can start with some common beliefs, and you explaining what you believe the holes are might greatly help in that regard.



PredFan said:


> As far as an inside job, you'd have to prove that and no one has ever been able to.



I have never claimed to be able to prove it myself. Let's see if we can find points of commonality in the official story's holes and see where we go from there...


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## phoenyx (Jul 29, 2016)

9/11 inside job said:


> Divine.Wind said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
> ...



Could you cite an article with a list of these individuals?



9/11 inside job said:


> Oh and it was ISRAEL along with many covert operaters in the CIA that was behind it all,not americans.



So you're saying that the covert operators in the CIA weren't Americans? I certainly believe that some Israelies were involved, and I believe there are some leads that suggest the CIA was indeed involved, could you point me to an article that fleshes out your claim?



9/11 inside job said:


> you dont seem to be able to grasp it that the CIA is an evil organization that doesnt do what we are TOLD they do which is spy on other countries when the TRUTH is they have been involved in secret covert wars ever since the 1940's.



I don't disagree that they are involved in many secret covert wars, but I'm pretty sure they spy on other countries as well . I think an excellent book to get a bit of the feel of the CIA came from someone who used to work for them, Valerie Plane. Her book is called "Fair Game: My Life as a Spy, My Betrayal by the White House". A summary of the book can be found here:
Fair Game: My Life as a Spy, My Betrayal by the White House - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



9/11 inside job said:


> You dont know your history either very well. the CIA way back in the 50's  ran a secret war against Indonisia that VP Nixon under Eisenhower was in charge of that involved THOUSANDS.that was kept a secret from the american people for YEARS. they had no idea that was going on back then and for many years charlie. that war was so secret even Eisenhower did not know about it.they kept him out of the loop of it all.



Must admit I hadn't heard about it until now. It does look interesting, I took a brief look at the wikipedia entry on the subject...
CIA activities in Indonesia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Judging from my brief look, however, it appears that Eisenhower was very much involved, atleast after a few years:
"_This happened until 25 September 1957 when President Eisenhower finally ordered the CIA to overthrow the Sukarno government. In 1958, elements of the Indonesian military, with the support of the CIA, rebelled against the rule of President Sukarno. This attempted coup ended in failure as had many other CIA other throw attempts.[4]_"



9/11 inside job said:


> Originally the CIA was established to spy on americans and report their findings directly to the president



I've found no evidence of that. This is what I did find, again from wikipedia:
**The United States Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) was created on July 26, when Harry S. Truman signed the National Security Act of 1947 into law. A major impetus that has been cited over the years for the creation of the CIA was the unforeseen attack on Pearl Harbor, but whatever Pearl Harbor's role, in the twilight of World War II it was clear in government circles that there was a need for a group to coordinate government intelligence efforts, and the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), the State Department, and the War Department, and even the Post Office were all jockeying for that new power.

General William "Wild Bill" Donovan, head of the Office of Strategic Services (OSS), wrote to President Franklin D. Roosevelt on November 18, 1944, stating the need for a peacetime "Central Intelligence Service" "which will procure intelligence both by overt and covert methods and will at the same time provide intelligence guidance, determine national intelligence objectives, and correlate the intelligence material collected by all government agencies.",[1] and have authority to conduct "subversive operations abroad", but "no police or law enforcement functions, either at home or abroad".[2][3][4]**

Source: History of the Central Intelligence Agency - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



9/11 inside job said:


> but it became an out of control evil organization that are involved in political assassinations around thew world as well as smuggling drugs into the country. many CIA officers have come forward and said so. They went public about it writing a book about it to make sure they stayed alive.



What book would that be?



9/11 inside job said:


> are you even aware that there were over a 100 witnesses to the JFK assassination who came forward and said they saw a second gunman and that the majority wound up dying in mysterious deaths afterwards?



Can you link to an article citing the deaths of these witnesses?



9/11 inside job said:


> well same thing with 9/11. many people who came forward and gave versions different than the government ended up dying mysterious deaths as well.



-That- I've definitely seen evidence for, laugh ...



9/11 inside job said:


> oh and like five years ago or so,E Howard Hunt who was a CIA operative under Nixon and ran covert operations for him-remember watergate where Nixon erased his tapes and there was a 9 and a half gap missing? well part of it he overlooked and did not erase,he was caught saying -That scab Hunt.He is a dangerous loose cannon.He worries me.if he isnt paid off,that whole bay of pigs thing will come out. One of Nixons cabinet members said that what Nixon was ACTUALLY referring to was the whole kennedy assassination thing.Him and Johnson were involved in that up to their ears...
> 
> I bring all that up because toward the end of his death,Hunt made a deathbed confession that the CIA was behind the JFK assassination and Nixon and Johnson had a huge hand in it as you can hear for yourself in this video.
> 
> several years from now,we'll probably hear whistle blowers on 9/11 come forward as well like Hunt.



Would be  nice. We'll see. I had heard about Hunt's story before, it is certainly compelling. I also saw Oliver Stone's JFK film and read parts of one of the books it was based on, Jim Marrs' book Crossfire.


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## phoenyx (Jul 29, 2016)

9/11 inside job said:


> PredFan said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
> ...



Personally, I think one of people's biggest flaws is their notions that things they believe should be self evident to others as well. I've seen this on both sides of most debates, although I tend to find that official story supporters tend to have an extra helping of the stuff -.- I also think people are too keen to believe things without sufficient evidence. One of my favourite lines is from Andre Gide. Paraphrasing a bit: "Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who find it".


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## phoenyx (Jul 29, 2016)

9/11 inside job said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > Divine.Wind said:
> ...



I don't find it hilarious personally. But I do believe that some who -did- reveal things that didn't jive with the official story died in suspicious ways.



9/11 inside job said:


> lol just as I got done proving,9/11 is the same as the JFK assassination where people who DID come forward and give explanations different than the governments version of events,endyed up paying the price getting murdererd off and having their deaths disguised as suicides,car crashs,heart attacks,ect,ect  there was even one lady who came on alex jones show saying she heard explosions going off in the basements and if she died soon do not believe the official version of her death,that she would never take her own life. Guess how she died? an alleged suicide hanging.
> 
> yep no murder by the government there.



I know who you're referring to...
9/11 Conspiracy Connection To DC Madam Murder


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## PredFan (Jul 29, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> PredFan said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
> ...



Yes, I'm pretty sure that the government isn't that smart and even more sure that there would at least be one, likely more that eventually would break the silence.

The "holes" in the official story that I'm referring to have been brought up by the various Truthers here. To be honest, I can't recall all of them, or even one. You could probably mention the ones you know and refresh my memory. Sorry, but I don't dwell on those at all because I'm satisfied that the "official" story is pretty much correct and that we can never know the whole truth.


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## rightwinger (Jul 29, 2016)

George Bush getting ready to control demo the WTC


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## Divine Wind (Jul 29, 2016)

9/11 inside job said:


> ....first off,if they talked,they would wind up as a mysterious dead body same as so many of them did when they came forward and said they heard explosions going off in the basements before they collapsed.
> 
> Oh and it was* ISRAEL* along with many covert operaters in the CIA that was behind it all,not americans.you dont seem to be able to grasp it that the CIA is an evil organization that doesnt do what we are TOLD they do which is spy on other countries when the TRUTH is they have been involved in secret covert wars ever since the 1940's......


Dude, obviously you are a coward who doesn't recognize that other people, especially patriots, don't live in fear of death.  They would speak out in spite of threats to themselves. 

Well, well, well.  Now your hatred comes to the forefront.  You're not only a conspiracy theorist living in fear of government assassins, but you're also an anti-Semitic.  Sad.


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## dani67 (Jul 29, 2016)

it was jew job


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## phoenyx (Jul 29, 2016)

PredFan said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > PredFan said:
> ...



I don't think it's wise to view the government as a single continuous entity. There are many political factions within a government, some more devious then others. I certainly don't believe that Norman Mineta was involved, for instance. I think he may actually have provided very damning evidence that someone else in government was, however: Dick Cheney.



PredFan said:


> and even more sure that there would at least be one, likely more that eventually would break the silence.



Again, how are you so sure? Not to mention the fact that the night is still young. Howard Hunt didn't make his confession concerning JFK until his death bed, over 4 decades after the assassination itself:

The Last Confessions of E. Howard Hunt : Rolling Stone



PredFan said:


> The "holes" in the official story that I'm referring to have been brought up by the various Truthers here. To be honest, I can't recall all of them, or even one.



Alright.



PredFan said:


> You could probably mention the ones you know and refresh my memory. Sorry, but I don't dwell on those at all because I'm satisfied that the "official" story is pretty much correct and that we can never know the whole truth.



I see. Well, for starters, do you atleast agree that government agencies aren't always honest with the public about important events? I'm also curious as to whether you believe the government has ever covered anything up. Iran Contra, the JFK assassination, "Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq", those types of things, do you believe any of the original official stories concerning those events?


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## phoenyx (Jul 29, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> 9/11 inside job said:
> 
> 
> > ....first off,if they talked,they would wind up as a mysterious dead body same as so many of them did when they came forward and said they heard explosions going off in the basements before they collapsed.
> ...



Wait a second, if those who planned 9/11 were such patriots in the way you seem to be describing, why would they plan 9/11 to begin with?



Divine.Wind said:


> Well, well, well.  Now your hatred comes to the forefront.  You're not only a conspiracy theorist living in fear of government assassins, but you're also an anti-Semitic.  Sad.



I'm not sure why he doesn't consider the CIA to be Americans, unless he thinks only foreign born CIA operatives were a part of this. Personally, I think it's highly likely that Cheney was involved. Cheney is a methodist christian, not jewish. I certainly believe some israelis were involved, some were even arrested and interogated. The big wigs seem to have stopped the investigation, however:
**The five Israelis were held at the Metropolitan Detention Center in Brooklyn, ostensibly for overstaying their tourist visas and working in the United States illegally. Two weeks after their arrest, an immigration judge ordered them to be deported. But sources told ABCNEWS that FBI and CIA officials in Washington put a hold on the case.

The five men were held in detention for more than two months. Some of them were placed in solitary confinement for 40 days, and some of them were given as many as seven lie-detector tests.**

Source: Were Israelis Detained on Sept. 11 Spies? | ABC News

There's a lot more information on these israelies which can be found in other pages, amoung them, this one:
9-11 Attacks: The Five Dancing Israelis Arrested on 9-11


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## PredFan (Jul 29, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> PredFan said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
> ...



You misunderstand. I am not saying that the government is lying, I'm saying that an investigation after the fact cannot answer all of the questions and tell the whole story. We may never know the whole truth because it isn't possible to know.

Of course the government has covered up things but in every case that you mention except for the JFK Assassination and WMDs, they have not been able to keep quiet. JFK was killed by Lee Harvey Oswald and Saddam Hussein definitely had WMDs.


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## phoenyx (Jul 29, 2016)

dani67 said:


> it was jew job



So you think that Israel alone pulled off 9/11? If so, what draws you to this conclusion?


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## rightwinger (Jul 29, 2016)

The corrupt mainstream media told us that people were jumping from the towers because the flames were so hot and the building was becoming unbearable







But we know better. People jumped because they knew a controlled demo was coming





.


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## Divine Wind (Jul 29, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> Wait a second, if those who planned 9/11 were such patriots in the way you seem to be describing, why would they plan 9/11 to begin with?


They didn't.  That's my point.  You, however, are free to spin your nutty conspiracy theories to your cowardly heart's content.   I am free to point out why you are wrong.


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## dani67 (Jul 29, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> dani67 said:
> 
> 
> > it was jew job
> ...


jew controlling media =


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## candycorn (Jul 29, 2016)

As with all conspiracy theories…eventually they blame the jews.


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## LA RAM FAN (Jul 29, 2016)

I see zionist agent phoenix farted after my post.His handlers sure got worried sending him immediately afterwards to talk to himself.

comedy gold that he uses INTERNET links as sources.

His handlers could have done much better than that of what to instruct him to do.


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## LA RAM FAN (Jul 29, 2016)

dani67 said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > dani67 said:
> ...




you took the zionist shill to school there and disinfo agent rightwinger can only laugh in defeat.

So you think that Israel alone pulled off 9/11? If so, what draws you to this conclusion?

Not Israel alone,Israel along with the CIA. what draws me to that conclusion? Oh I dont know,a couple of videos each three hours long here   below that have never been debunked by anybody including you Zionist paid shills.


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## LA RAM FAN (Jul 29, 2016)

PredFan said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > PredFan said:
> ...


the fact USMB's resident troll agent rightwinger agreed with this post says it all about this post,.this after all is a guy who is STILL saying the rams are playing in st louis this year,seriously I am not lying.so much for HIS credibility.i would hate to have someone like that agreeing with me.


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## rightwinger (Jul 29, 2016)

Notice the fire engine in the background






While the press was watching the firemen put out the fire in the background, Government stealth agents were distributing these airplane parts all over the Pentagon lawn


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## LA RAM FAN (Jul 29, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> 9/11 inside job said:
> 
> 
> > ....first off,if they talked,they would wind up as a mysterious dead body same as so many of them did when they came forward and said they heard explosions going off in the basements before they collapsed.
> ...


other way around,you are the only coward here.you ignored everything i posted that took you to school.that shows your arrogance.


Divine.Wind said:


> 9/11 inside job said:
> 
> 
> > ....first off,if they talked,they would wind up as a mysterious dead body same as so many of them did when they came forward and said they heard explosions going off in the basements before they collapsed.
> ...



other way around liar,YOU are the coward here,the fact you ignored EVERYTHING i posted and dismissed it.  hatred? yeah I hate idiot trolls like you who  only see what they WANT to see.yeah i wont deny that.
now THAT'S  whats sad.
you idiot,they arent going to speak out when they know they wont only kill them but they will kill their familys as well.

typical BS from you 9/11 conspiracy theorists making false accusations with BS that I am anti-semitic as well when you cant counter facts.
thats like saying I hate all americans in the country because I hate George Bush and Bill Clinton because they are americans.


also you idiot,I also greatly respect true jewish people,true jewish people Judusim Jewish folks are very good people and want to reform their corrupt government in Israel moron.their corrupt leaders are zionist Jewish and they are evil so enough of this false BS that I am anti- semetic jerk.

the fact that zionist paid shill agent sayit likes your post,is not helping your cause either.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you were not a zionist agent like rightwinger,sayit,or phoenyx,ALL idiots who talk to themselves thinking i still read their propaganda they post all these years later but obviously you are no different than them,a shill as well the fact you stopped to name calling calling me a coward and and making false accusations that I am anti semitic as well.

your handler has failed MISERABLY to debunk anything i posted that he sent you here to post after i took you to school and you did this- when you could not refute anything.

now THATS being a coward which you obviously have proven in spades.


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## LA RAM FAN (Jul 29, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > Wait a second, if those who planned 9/11 were such patriots in the way you seem to be describing, why would they plan 9/11 to begin with?
> ...




How  by making false accusations that people are anti-semitic when you cant refute facts that the mossad along with the CIA were behind the attacks? yeah thats really pointing out why we are wrong.


you 9/11 apologists spend the nuttiest, absurd, ludicrous conspiracy theory of them all.the official conspiracy THEORY of them all spun by the Bush administration you Bush dupes fell for hook,line,and sinker in this link below.This below  is by far heads and shoulders the wackiest conspiracy THEORY of them all.

Idaho Observer: The looniest of all 9/11 conspiracy theories
Let us not tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories,” President Bush stated amid increasingly loud accusations that his administration may have allowed the tragic events of 9/11 to occur as a pretext justifying U.S. expansion of armed conflict around the world to allegedly wage war on terrorism. Curiously, most of the “outrageous conspiracy theories” to which he refers incorporate some extremely sound science, logic and witness testimony where the official version is lacking in those critical areas. The following is a rather clever and immensely sarcastic approach to the government's explanation of 9/11 -- which follows a pattern established by the “magic bullet theory” to explain the assassination of JFK and a Ryder truck full of fertilizer and fuel oil to explain the damage at the Murrah federal building in OK City.

One of the wilder stories circulating about Sept 11 (and one that has attracted something of a cult following amongst conspiracy buffs) is that it was carried out by 19 fanatical Arab hijackers, masterminded by an evil genius named Osama bin Laden, with no apparent motivation other than that they “hate our freedoms.”

Never a group of people to be bothered by facts, the perpetrators of this cartoon fantasy have constructed an elaborately woven web of delusions and unsubstantiated hearsay in order to promote this garbage across the Internet and the media to the extent that a number of otherwise rational people have actually fallen under its spell.

Normally I don't even bother debunking this kind of junk, but the effect that this paranoid myth is beginning to have requires a little rational analysis, in order to consign it to the same rubbish bin as all such silly conspiracy theories.

These crackpots even contend that the extremist Bush regime was caught unawares by the attacks, had no hand in organizing them and actually would have stopped them if it had been able. Blindly ignoring the stand down of the U.S. Air Force, the insider trading on airline stocks (linked to the CIA), the complicit behavior of Bush on the morning of the attacks, the controlled demolition of the WTC, the firing of a missile into the Pentagon and a host of other documented proofs that the Bush regime was behind the attacks, the conspiracy theorists stick doggedly to a silly story about 19 Arab hijackers somehow managing to commandeer four planes simultaneously and fly them around U.S. airspace for nearly two hours, crashing them into important buildings, without the U.S. intelligence services having any idea that it was coming, and without the Air Force knowing what to do.

The daunting task of analysis

The huge difficulties with such a stupid story force them to invent even more preposterous stories to distract from its core silliness, and thus the tale has escalated into a mythic fantasy of truly gargantuan proportions.

It's difficult to apply rational analysis to such unmitigated stupidity, but that is the task which I take on in this article. However, it should be noted that one of the curious characteristics of conspiracy theorists is that they effortlessly change their so called evidence in response to each aspect which is debunked. As soon as one delusion is unmasked, they simply invent another to replace it and deny that the first ever existed. Eventually, when they have turned full circle through this endlessly changing fantasy fog , they then reinvent the original delusion and deny that you ever debunked it, thus beginning the circle once more. This technique is known as “the fruit loop” and saves the conspiracy theorist from ever having to see any of their ideas through to their (ill)logical conclusions.

The fruit loop

According to the practitioners of the fruit loop, 19 Arabs took over the four planes by subduing the passengers and crew through the use of guns, knives, box cutters and gas, and then used electronic guidance systems which they had smuggled on board to fly the planes to their targets.

The suspension of disbelief required for this outrageous concoction is only for the hard core conspiracy theorist. For a start, they conveniently skip over the awkward fact that there weren't any Arabs on the planes.

If there were, one must speculate that they somehow got on board without being filmed by any of the security cameras and without being registered on the passenger lists. But the curly question of how they are supposed to have got on board is all too mundane for the exciting world of the conspiracy theorist.

Who's on first?

talk about a wacky absurd conspiracy THEORY. better stop smoking that crack you guys are on.


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## LA RAM FAN (Jul 29, 2016)

I gave you the beneift of the doubt that you were just simply brainwashed and programmed as I once was on 9/11 when I first accepted the official version as well but you are obviously another paid shill of Israel same as agents sayit,roudy,,rightwinger,rosie,and candyass all  on their payroll sent to troll this message board and others by your handlers in Israel the fact you are like all of them,incapeable of debating without resorting to name calling -saying I am a coward and then making false accusations as well that I am anti semtic-so same as all of those have lost their credibility years ago,you have joined their group.

another paid zionist shill to add to my ignore list since all you can do is shit all over the floor when you cant counter pesky facts and make up one lie after another like I am a coward and anti semitic. way to go.
way to prove your point how mature you are.


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## LA RAM FAN (Jul 29, 2016)

PredFan said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > PredFan said:
> ...




this troll is the funniest one of them all.

He is the ONLY one on here who is NOT  a paid shill of Isreal since he put me on ignore years ago after I challenged him years ago to debunk facts that oswald was innocent and there were multiple shooters. Like I said,I sent him a pm saying I'm waiting. asking him to address it and since he could not debunk it,he got angry and started calling me names and has had me on ignore ever since.


He is obviously the only troll on here not a paid shill because his handlers would not pay him the big bucks they pay you guys for your ass beatings you get here everyday-you guys would NEVER show up here everyday for free and take the ass beatings you get here everyday by people that are ignorant enough to feed you like they do and waste their time on you as they do and you all then make lies up as predfan did just now,you know,it I know it.

predfan put me on ignore years ago when i challenged him to refute my facts oswald was innocent and there were multiple shooters sending me a pm back calling me names out of frustration he could not counter my facts  and has had me on ignore ever since the fact he hated me taking him to school back then proving him wrong.

He obviously DOESNT get paid like you all do the fact he wasnt willing to take his ass beating from me for FREE.


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## LA RAM FAN (Jul 29, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> Divine.Wind said:
> 
> 
> > 9/11 inside job said:
> ...





Divine.Wind said:


> 9/11 inside job said:
> 
> 
> > ....first off,if they talked,they would wind up as a mysterious dead body same as so many of them did when they came forward and said they heard explosions going off in the basements before they collapsed.
> ...



NOW it all makes sense why you make false BS claims when losing an argument and cant refute facts why you go and say that BS that I am anti semitic,I have seen you friendly with  the three biggest USMB trolls at USMB rightwinger,sayit idiot,and candyass talking to them and clicking on LIKES for their posts,the fact you click on likes and are friendly with those zionist shills,is all the evidence in the world right there  i misjudged you giving you the benefit of the dount that you were just brainwashed like i was on 9/11 at one time,thats all the proof in the world right there you are a zionist shill same as them that i need to add to ignore as well.

not a good way to try and get any credibility around herebeing friends with THOSE paid shills of Israel.

my ignore list growns larger with another israel shill that has penetrated this site.


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## LA RAM FAN (Jul 29, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> 9/11 inside job said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
> ...




Thank you,i could not remember her name.

true enough that its not hilarious about the somebody would have talked lameass argument they come up with.

You mentioned how Hunt did not spill the beans about the JFK assassination till his final days on his deathbed confession to his son. He kept quiet about it because if he talked and spilled the beans,he would meet the same fate that others did who knew too much.

many reseachers believed that Hunt was in dallas that day and was one of the three tramps. what is interesting is Hunt denied he was in dallas that day most his life until his final days. Funny in his final days when he was dying he change tune and CONFESSED his involvement in it isnt it?

Hunt was going to die anyways so it would be too late for them to kill him so hew fessed up. and its interesting that he did not fes up because of being guilty,but because he was still proud of his actions is why.

so that was a pretty ignorant question for him to ask when the answer is obvious that the people that were involved,were paid well to keep their mouths shut or the ones or if they spilled the beans,they would suffer the same fat as kennedy.

as I said,many decades from now,there will probably be CIA  people like Hunt also come forward and spill the beans about their involvement.that fact seems to be a little too hard for the Israeli shills like that last jerk i got done with who made that false accusation against me that I am anti semitic just for saying Israel was behind it. pesky facts like that seem to go over the heads of people like that devine idiot.

I really do hate to get into insults but they ALWAYS throw the first punch everytime so itas hard for me to refrain from hitting back.This  devine jerk being the latest calling me a coward and making that false accusation that I am anti semetic.

I thought he was different from the others so i tried to have a civil conversation with him,that turned out to be impossible though the fact he is another paid shill of Israel.


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## phoenyx (Jul 29, 2016)

PredFan said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > PredFan said:
> ...



You may be right on that one; the whole truth concerning 9/11 is quite a lot of information. But I certainly believe that many (including myself) can learn a lot more then we currently know of the event.



PredFan said:


> Of course the government has covered up things but in every case that you mention except for the JFK Assassination and WMDs, they have not been able to keep quiet. JFK was killed by Lee Harvey Oswald and Saddam Hussein definitely had WMDs.



So you don't find Howard Hunt's confession to be credible, I take it? As to your notion that Saddam Hussein definitely had WMDs, I know that this has been claimed, but I haven't seen any real evidence to back it up.


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## phoenyx (Jul 29, 2016)

rightwinger said:


> The corrupt mainstream media told us that people were jumping from the towers because the flames were so hot and the building was becoming unbearable
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Do you have any evidence to back up your claim?


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## LA RAM FAN (Jul 29, 2016)

the Israel shills have been taken to school,nuff said.lol


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## phoenyx (Jul 29, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > Wait a second, if those who planned 9/11 were such patriots in the way you seem to be describing, why would they plan 9/11 to begin with?
> ...



So you're saying that no government official could possibly contemplate killing their own people -.-?


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## LA RAM FAN (Jul 29, 2016)

9/11 inside job said:


> I see zionist agent phoenix farted after my post.His handlers sure got worried sending him immediately afterwards to talk to himself.
> 
> comedy gold that he uses INTERNET links as sources.
> 
> His handlers could have done much better than that of what to instruct him to do.




I was thinking you were one of israels shills here so ignore this post i made of ya here.lol


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## LA RAM FAN (Jul 29, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> Divine.Wind said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
> ...



this shill obviously cant comprehend that and doesnt want to either.all that matters to him is the money his boss pays him here for trolling.he thinks money can buy him happiness but he will find out differently in the end bringing so much negative karma down on himself and suffer for his participation in this coverup.

because i had never seen his posts before i gave him the beneift of the doubt of debating him thinking he might be different than the others  but he is just like the rest of them all are,cant get into a discussion without name calling and making false accusations that you are anti semetic.

I tried but as is always the case,they cant stay away from name calling so like always,got to add another shill on ignore.


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## LA RAM FAN (Jul 29, 2016)

9/11 inside job said:


> dani67 said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
> ...


No not alone,with the help of the CIA of course.the facts these two videos have never been debunked by the government or any of these paid Israel shills that have penetrated this forum.

compartmentalization of why nobody would talk seems to be something these shills like devine wind and the others are incapable of grasping,seems to go over their heads.


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## phoenyx (Jul 29, 2016)

dani67 said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > dani67 said:
> ...



Personally, I think that judaism and christianity are not nearly as powerful in elite circles as other groups, such as freemasonry and others, such as the illuminati. The all seeing eye is not a judaic tradition, but it is certainly a freemasonry one. Here's a little story I just found concerning the 1 dollar bill:
The All-Seeing Eye, the President, the Secretary & the Guru

An article on the illuminati can be found here:
The Illuminati Symbol, the Great Seal and the One Dollar Bill

I think this is the reason why the U.S. and Israel get along well, because of these 'inner circle' groups that don't care what religion you have, so long as your first priority is to their group.

I once read a series of novels, which, together, were called "The Illuminatus". I found it very educational. It was fiction, but it many facts mixed in. It was very good because the truth when it comes to the illuminati and other groups of this nature is very hard to come by, with many conflicting theories. Not all of them can be true, but some certainly can be.


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## PredFan (Jul 29, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> PredFan said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
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No, Hunt is grandstanding.
If you haven't seen any evidence that Saddam had WMDs then you haven't been looking. Saddam Hussein killed hundreds of thousands of Kurds with his WMDs, that is an easily proven fact. But this is off the point.


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## phoenyx (Jul 29, 2016)

9/11 inside job said:


> 9/11 inside job said:
> 
> 
> > I see zionist agent phoenix farted after my post.His handlers sure got worried sending him immediately afterwards to talk to himself.
> ...



Alright. I was going to respond "Et tu, Brute?", glad that won't be necessary .


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## phoenyx (Jul 29, 2016)

9/11 inside job said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > 9/11 inside job said:
> ...



Np 



9/11 inside job said:


> true enough that its not hilarious about the somebody would have talked lameass argument they come up with.



It definitely gets very tiring hearing this unsubstantiated argument over and over again -.-



9/11 inside job said:


> You mentioned how Hunt did not spill the beans about the JFK assassination till his final days on his deathbed confession to his son. He kept quiet about it because if he talked and spilled the beans,he would meet the same fate that others did who knew too much.



You may well be right about that.



9/11 inside job said:


> many reseachers believed that Hunt was in dallas that day and was one of the three tramps. what is interesting is Hunt denied he was in dallas that day most his life until his final days. Funny in his final days when he was dying he change tune and CONFESSED his involvement in it isnt it?
> 
> Hunt was going to die anyways so it would be too late for them to kill him so hew fessed up. and its interesting that he did not fes up because of being guilty,but because he was still proud of his actions is why.



This is what I was trying to point out to someone here, that different people have different ideas as to what patriotism means.



9/11 inside job said:


> as I said,many decades from now,there will probably be CIA  people like Hunt also come forward and spill the beans about their involvement.



It would certainly make the job of those trying to bring the truth to light a lot easier...



9/11 inside job said:


> that fact seems to be a little too hard for the Israeli shills like that last jerk i got done with who made that false accusation against me that I am anti semitic just for saying Israel was behind it. pesky facts like that seem to go over the heads of people like that devine idiot.



You know me 9/11, I'm not really one to make accusations without having substantial evidence to back it up. Put another way, just as he was quick to jump to the notion that you were anti semetic, I think you are sometimes too quick too jump to the notion that people are shills (just a little bit ago, you were accusing -me- of being a shill, as you may recall -.-).



9/11 inside job said:


> I really do hate to get into insults but they ALWAYS throw the first punch everytime so it's hard for me to refrain from hitting back.



I just remove the insults from what I quote them saying. Faun has shown some irritation to me doing it, but I think he's finally getting used to it. If you get to a certain point with people, they will appreciate sticking to the arguments, not insulting the person themselves... or atleast not with base insults. I can't resist insulting people -subtly- . You also do that at times, humour can be the best way to get people to think. I greatly appreciate comedians such as Jon Stewart, Colbert, and others. I may not agree with them on all things, but that doesn't matter, when we -do- agree, which is most of the time, it's awesome 



9/11 inside job said:


> This  devine jerk being the latest calling me a coward and making that false accusation that I am anti semetic.



I get accused of things as well; I try to brush it off like water off a duck's back as much as I can. I've also started to think that those who don't believe the official story have to stick together a bit more. I think I've spent a bit too long only responding to those who believe it, it can get pretty demoralizing when you are only discussing things with people who don't agree with you on the most fundamental points in the discussion.


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## phoenyx (Jul 29, 2016)

9/11 inside job said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > Divine.Wind said:
> ...



Come now 9/11, just because they don't agree with us doesn't mean they have to be shills...


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## Faun (Jul 29, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > The corrupt mainstream media told us that people were jumping from the towers because the flames were so hot and the building was becoming unbearable
> ...


Evidence of what? That people jumped to their death?


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## Faun (Jul 29, 2016)

9/11 inside job said:


> the Israel shills have been taken to school,nuff said.lol



* שָׁלוֹם*


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## phoenyx (Jul 29, 2016)

9/11 inside job said:


> 9/11 inside job said:
> 
> 
> > dani67 said:
> ...



I haven't seen those videos, but I certainly believe that it was a joint effort between some Americans, Israelies, Saudis, and atleast one Pakistani (a certain Pakistani general, to be precise). 



9/11 inside job said:


> compartmentalization of why nobody would talk seems to be something these shills like devine wind and the others are incapable of grasping,seems to go over their heads.



I remember -someone- here knew about compartmentalization, I forget who, but they can't seem to fathom the notion that it could actually be used against the united states instead of for it.


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## phoenyx (Jul 29, 2016)

PredFan said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
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> > PredFan said:
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How are you so sure? It seems his primary purpose was to tell his children, not to tell the media. It was his children who told the media.



PredFan said:


> If you haven't seen any evidence that Saddam had WMDs then you haven't been looking. Saddam Hussein killed hundreds of thousands of Kurds with his WMDs, that is an easily proven fact. But this is off the point.



Yeah, it's off the point, but we could always make a new thread if it really got going. I'm not saying that Saddam Hussein didn't have chemical weapons at the time of the first gulf war. What I'd like to see is evidence that they still had it before Bush Jr. invaded.


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## phoenyx (Jul 29, 2016)

Faun said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



No, evidence that people jumped "because they knew a controlled demo was coming". I'm 99% sure that rightwinger is just playing around (a polite way of saying that he's trolling), he's done it with a bunch of posts I just ignored, but I finally decided to respond to a single post of his and see if he could get serious for a change.


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## rightwinger (Jul 29, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > The corrupt mainstream media told us that people were jumping from the towers because the flames were so hot and the building was becoming unbearable
> ...



I am a conspiracy theorist, I do not need evidence

My theory is as credible as anyone else's on this thread


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## rightwinger (Jul 29, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> Faun said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
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This is FUCKING serious. Bush and Clinton conspired to conduct a controlled demo of the WTC. What other possible explanation could there be that two perfectly fine buildings, hit by jet airplanes, would fall down?

Stop covering up


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## phoenyx (Jul 29, 2016)

rightwinger said:


> phoenyx said:
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> > rightwinger said:
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There are 2 types of conspiracy theorists. Those who don't care about the evidence (many official conspiracy theorists belong in this category) and those who do. You are clearly in the former category. Good luck with that.


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## phoenyx (Jul 29, 2016)

rightwinger said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > Faun said:
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Swearing in capital letters doesn't make your post serious. Go find somewhere else to troll -.-


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## rightwinger (Jul 29, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> rightwinger said:
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> > phoenyx said:
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You asked us to provide our theories of what REALLY happened and I did. My theories are as credible as anyone else's on this thread. You have failed to discredit anything I posted

There is no way that two buildings hit by airplanes going at 500 mph could possibly collapse. Stop being so naive


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## rightwinger (Jul 29, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
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I regret to inform you that it is impossible to troll a 9-11 conspiracy thread


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## phoenyx (Jul 29, 2016)

rightwinger said:


> phoenyx said:
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> > rightwinger said:
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Come on rightwinger, do you honestly believe anyone believes you actually believe these "theories" you've put out? Furthermore, a good theory has to be backed up by evidence. Otherwise, it's just quackery.


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## rightwinger (Jul 29, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
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My theories are the only ones that makes sense. All others leave out what they think really happened and just make up stuff to debunk the official story

You tell me
Why else would people jump from a burning building unless they thought a controlled demo was coming?
You can't can you?


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## phoenyx (Jul 29, 2016)

rightwinger said:


> phoenyx said:
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> 
> > rightwinger said:
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Sigh. Look, even if you actually believed your "theory", I'd -still- ask  you to provide evidence for it. And if you couldn't, I'd leave it by the curb.


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## rightwinger (Jul 29, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> rightwinger said:
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> 
> > phoenyx said:
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I knew you couldn't debunk my theory.  Typical 9-11 truther

Why else would anyone jump a thousand feet to their death unless someone had told them the building was going to be controlled demo in a few minutes and they would die at freefall speeds


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## LA RAM FAN (Jul 29, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> dani67 said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
> ...


judaism people are actually good people thats why it pisses me off when people like that idiot troll divine when makes false accusations against me that I am anti semetic.


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## LA RAM FAN (Jul 29, 2016)

PredFan said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > PredFan said:
> ...


and this folks is the troll who says oswald killed JFK and ran off and put me on ignore years ago when i proved him wrong.


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## phoenyx (Jul 29, 2016)

rightwinger said:


> phoenyx said:
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> > rightwinger said:
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You don't believe in it anyway. But as I said, even if you -did- believe in a given theory, it's up to -you- to provide evidence that it's true. If you can't do that, people will generally just ignore you. Which I should probably get back to doing...


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## rightwinger (Jul 29, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
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Evidence?

Since when are conspiracy theories held to any standard of evidence? Name anyone else on this thread who provided actual evidence of an alternate theory?


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## LA RAM FAN (Jul 29, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> 9/11 inside job said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
> ...




that was ONLY because i was confusing your user name with another Israel shill in the Israel section similiar to yours.His is Phonenail so i think you can see how i got him mixed up with you.

thats because  it goes through one ear and out the other with you that its easy to tell,they make up LIES all the time when they cant refute the facts with bible length rants full of them, that is how i know predfan is not because he just comes back with one liner insults when he cant refute them and then adds people to ignore as he did with me years ago when i proved him wrong that oswald was innocent.


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## phoenyx (Jul 29, 2016)

9/11 inside job said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > dani67 said:
> ...



Ok, I definitely think it's a good idea that we make it clear that we aren't anti semitic .


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## PredFan (Jul 29, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> PredFan said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
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Absence of proof is not proof of absence. He had WMDs, he used them, there's no reason to believe that he used them all and what did we give him? 30-40 days advance notice before we attacked? If you can't see the logic in that them we may not be able to discuss anything regarding 9-11. Logic and reason will be important.


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## phoenyx (Jul 29, 2016)

rightwinger said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



First, I think we should try to come to an accord as to the definition of evidence. Otherwise, we may end up playing a game I've played with Faun, which is to argue over what constitutes evidence. Here is how wikipedia introduces the term:
"_*Evidence*, broadly construed, is anything presented in support of an assertion.[1] This support may be strong or weak. The strongest type of evidence is that which provides direct proof of the truth of an assertion. At the other extreme is evidence that is merely consistent with an assertion but does not rule out other, contradictory assertions, as in circumstantial evidence._"

Source: Evidence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If you can agree to this definition, I would say that lots of people have introduced evidence in this thread, on both sides of the fence, starting from my opening post. We can argue about whether any particular piece of evidence is weak or strong, but by the above definition, there's been a lot of it in this thread.


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## phoenyx (Jul 29, 2016)

9/11 inside job said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > 9/11 inside job said:
> ...



Ah ok, I see about the similarity of the name. I'm not sure I'd consider him a shill, but I've never seen his posts, so I'll reserve judgement on that count.



9/11 inside job said:


> thats because  it goes through one ear and out the other with you that its easy to tell, they make up LIES all the time when they cant refute the facts with bible length rants full of them, that is how i know predfan is not because he just comes back with one liner insults when he cant refute them and then adds people to ignore as he did with me years ago when i proved him wrong that oswald was innocent.



I can tell you right now that I've never been sure that anyone I've ever discussed 9/11 or any other conspiracy with in all the  years I've been doing it was a shill. Sure, I've -suspected- some, but I've never been sure, and I'm not even sure I've ever let any of them know of my suspicions, atleast not directly. I just find that it tends to distract from discussing the matter at hand.


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## rightwinger (Jul 29, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
> ...



You have yet to refute any of my theories. 
A theory examines facts and assigns a reason to them

Fact: People jumped thousands of feet to their death on 9-11
Evidence: I provided a picture

Theory: People jumped from burning buildings because they were informed the buildings would undergo a controlled demo

rationale: there is no other reason they could have jumped


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## phoenyx (Jul 29, 2016)

PredFan said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > PredFan said:
> ...



True. Ofcourse, that logic can be used to argue for the existence of invisible unicorns and elves on Mars. You're free to do it, but don't expect me to go along for the ride .



PredFan said:


> He had WMDs, he used them, there's no reason to believe that he used them all and what did we give him? 30-40 days advance notice before we attacked?



The strongest evidence that he had no chemical weapons left is in the fact that none were ever found after Bush Jr.'s invasion. Like you said, absence of proof and even absence of evidence is not proof of its lack, but that doesn't mean I'm going to believe in invisible unicorns just because no one has proven they don't exist.


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## phoenyx (Jul 29, 2016)

rightwinger said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



Sorry, not interested in proving that invisible unicorn theories aren't true.



rightwinger said:


> A theory examines facts and assigns a reason to them
> 
> Fact: People jumped thousands of feet to their death on 9-11
> Evidence: I provided a picture
> ...



Sure there is. The buildings were burning, they were quite possibly going to get burned to death if they didn't jump.


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## rightwinger (Jul 29, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
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That is ridiculous

Why would people choose to jump out of a burning building at the exact time Bush was performing a controlled demo? The odds of both occurring at the same moment are astronomical.


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## MaryL (Jul 29, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> There have been threads in this forum that address the general issue of what happened on 9/11. That being said, I have found that a lot of them are not neutral in their title- their titles imply that they are either for or against an official narrative. I started a thread with the same title as this one in another forum and after over 1000 posts, I think it's been fairly successful. Not sure if it'll work out here, but I thought I'd give it a go. I'll start by responding to someone who asked me to outline my view of what happened on 9/11 and who was behind it...
> 
> I've heard many theories as to what happened at the World Trade Center. As to the general outline of what happened  9/11, I think I'll start with the general outline of both the official narrative of events, as well as the generally accepted outline of what those who disagree with it is, as outlined in a documentary film called Zeitgeist...
> 
> ...


Sigmund Freud once said about interpreting facts and symbology: "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar". I believe the 9/11 attacks were perpetrated by outside forces for their own agenda. That simple. Cloaking it as some mysterious inner government   illuminati machiavellian scheme just makes things more complicated and messy than the facts bare out.  19 Muslim jihadis funded and morally supported by  Saudi Arabia perpetrated  9/11, and they got away with it.


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## phoenyx (Jul 29, 2016)

rightwinger said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
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Now you're saying they all jumped at the exact moment the towers started to collapse -.-? If you can find evidence of that, by all means present it. To be honest, this is feeling a bit like Monty Python's argument clinic right now ...


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## rightwinger (Jul 29, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
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How could they possibly have known when to jump if they weren't warned that Bush was ready to control demo the building?


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## phoenyx (Jul 29, 2016)

MaryL said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > There have been threads in this forum that address the general issue of what happened on 9/11. That being said, I have found that a lot of them are not neutral in their title- their titles imply that they are either for or against an official narrative. I started a thread with the same title as this one in another forum and after over 1000 posts, I think it's been fairly successful. Not sure if it'll work out here, but I thought I'd give it a go. I'll start by responding to someone who asked me to outline my view of what happened on 9/11 and who was behind it...
> ...



I disagree...



MaryL said:


> 19 Muslim jihadis funded and morally supported by  Saudi Arabia perpetrated  9/11, and they got away with it.



For starters, the initial list of hijackers was changed fairly early on. Then there are the reports of 7 of the hijackers that 'stuck' reporting to be alive:
At Least 7 of the 9/11 Hijackers are Still Alive

There's a real dearth of evidence that -any- of the alleged hijackers actually boarded the '9/11' planes as well: 
Not a shred of evidence that any 9/11 ‘hijackers’ boarded any planes | Truth and Shadows

And while I agree that certain Saudi officials do seem to have been involved, I believe that's just the tip of the iceberg.


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## phoenyx (Jul 29, 2016)

rightwinger said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
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> > rightwinger said:
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You haven't even shown any evidence that they all jumped right before the collapses -.-


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## rightwinger (Jul 29, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
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> > phoenyx said:
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Now you are obfuscating....just like all truthers

It was viewed by millions that people started jumping minutes before the towers were controlled demoed. How could they have known the controlled demo would take place if they weren't tipped off?


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## phoenyx (Jul 29, 2016)

rightwinger said:


> phoenyx said:
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You haven't yet established that they weren't simply jumping out because they were being burned alive inside -.-


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## rightwinger (Jul 29, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> rightwinger said:
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Burned alive?

How could the moment they were being burned alive occur at the same time Bush was control demoing the building?


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## phoenyx (Jul 29, 2016)

rightwinger said:


> phoenyx said:
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Sigh -.- Come on rightwinger, let's stop with this skit of a discussion and get to a real one. Do you believe the official story wholeheartedly?


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## SAYIT (Jul 29, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
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Just to make it clear to you, RW seems to be saying his ridiculous 9/11 CTs are just as valid (or way more so) than _any_ of the foil-hat alternatives you and the "Truther" Movement have produced in 15 years of trying to prove "the Joooo did it!" The fact that you can't seem to get any distance from this board's village idiot (9/11HandJob) says all one needs to know about you.
The question isn't if anyone believes "the official story wholeheartedly" but rather do any of the 9/11 CTs you promote make a lick of sense?
Answer:


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## rightwinger (Jul 29, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> rightwinger said:
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> > phoenyx said:
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Of course not...it was what I like to call an "inside job"

The towers were imploded by a controlled demo by both Bush and Clinton. They just had to wait for two planes to hit the towers......it was only a matter of time


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## phoenyx (Jul 29, 2016)

SAYIT said:


> phoenyx said:
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> > rightwinger said:
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Not the "Joo" thing again -.- Look, I know there are some CTers that believe that anything bad in the world was caused by jews, but I'm certainly not one of them. RW isn't providing any evidence for claims that he doesn't even believe to begin with. I played along for a bit, but I've now lost interest.



SAYIT said:


> The fact that you can't seem to get any distance from this board's village [insults removed] says all one needs to know about you.



9/11 has his flaws (I think he's too quick to decide that someone is a shill, for instance), but I think that he has made some good points.



SAYIT said:


> The question isn't if anyone believes "the official story wholeheartedly"



My question was if RW believes the official story wholeheartedly. I'm hoping he'll answer it instead of going on with theories that he doesn't even believe in.



SAYIT said:


> ...do any of the 9/11 CTs you promote make a lick of sense?



I and many others believe they make a lot more sense then any of the official narratives out there regarding 9/11.


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## phoenyx (Jul 29, 2016)

rightwinger said:


> phoenyx said:
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Sigh, never mind, carry on with your skit, I'll just opt out of it.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> Skylar said:
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Its the ADIZ that NORAD monitors, which as you knew, surround the US like a donut. We know you know this as the very source you drew your quotes from included diagrams of ADIZ....which you intentionally and rather conspicuously omitted.





*
But you didn't want us to know that, despite it being the immediately relevant to your NORAD narrative. *This is the territory that NORAD monitors directly. A place none of the planes on 911 went and you *know* they never went.

As I've said, your argument relies on our ignorance. The more we know, the less your claims work. And you know it.



> Speaking of the ARTCC, they were dealing with known hijackings. Up until July 31, 1997, commanders in the field could have done anything, even shoot down planes, without the need to get approval from the Secretary of Defense (Donald Rumsfeld at the time of 9/11).



You're claiming that until 1997, that ARTCC 'commanders' could have ordered planes be shot down b the US military?

Prove it. Your word is already pretty much garbage. *Especially since you *just* changed your time line.* As just last page, you insisted that it was 2001, not 1997.



			
				phoenyx said:
			
		

> Actually, the planes could have been shot down up until around June 2001, and once again shortly after September 11, 2001. The rules were changed in between those time periods, though, making America's air defense terribly vulnerable:
> 
> 9/11: What really happened on that day?



Were you lying then, or are you lying now?

Or worse, do you just have no idea what you're talking about...and are just apeing what you've been told to think without even reading what you're posting?


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## rightwinger (Jul 29, 2016)

If you check the original design of the Twin Towers you will see it was designed by Jews. They designed secret control demo charges into the towers so that when the day came that the towers were hit by two jets flying at 500 mph, the Jews could blame the Saudi hijackers. 
It is what I have labeled an "inside job" by the Jews, NWO, Bilderberg and Obama


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## rightwinger (Jul 29, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
> ...


Another truther fails to disprove the logic of my theories


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

rightwinger said:


> If you check the original design of the Twin Towers you will see it was designed by Jews. They designed secret control demo charges into the towers so that when the day came that the towers were hit by two jets flying at 500 mph, the Jews could blame the Saudi hijackers.
> It is what I have labeled an "inside job" by the Jews, NWO, Bilderberg and Obama



Leslie Robertson wasn't a jew to the best of my knowledge.


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## SAYIT (Jul 29, 2016)

rightwinger said:


> If you check the original design .of the Twin Towers you will see it was designed by Jews. They designed secret control demo charges into the towers so that when the day came that the towers were hit by two jets flying at 500 mph, the Jews could blame the Saudi hijackers.
> It is what I have labeled an "inside job" by the Jews, NWO, Bilderberg and Obama



You forgot the Illuminati and the Spiders form Mars. 

I can't believe after all these years I've found common ground with a loony lefty. These 9/11 foil-hatters have a way of bringing people together, eh?


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

hadit said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > hadit said:
> ...



Initially we didn't even know where the planes were, as they were being tracked largely by secondary radar.

The civilian system of air traffic control uses primary and secondary radar systems. Primary radar usually centered around airports with ping and receive radar towers bouncing radar waves off of the planes. They extend from airports for 60 to 100 miles or so. Secondary radar simply monintors transponders on the planes. These transponders transmit information on the plane, its location, its identification, etc. This is the system used between airports and coverage for primary radar.

The hijackers disabled the transponders on the planes. Which means to the civilian system, they didn't exist between primary radar coverage.


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## PredFan (Jul 29, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> PredFan said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
> ...



Piss poor analogy. In order for your comparison to work, unicorns would have to be a fact. The WMDs were a fact.
Sorry, you seem to have two problems that will make a rational discussion about 9-11 very difficult; 1. a refusal or inability to see the logical, and 2, a refusal to admit when you are wrong.


----------



## Faun (Jul 29, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
> ...


I've seen rightwinger posting for some time and can tell he's serious as shit.


----------



## Faun (Jul 29, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
> ...


Don't get injured with the irony of you promoting the theory of a Pentagon fly over with absolutely zero evidence to support it.


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## Divine Wind (Jul 29, 2016)

9/11 inside job said:


> ...I am anti- semetic jerk....


Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in awhile.


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## Divine Wind (Jul 30, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> So you're saying that no government official could possibly contemplate killing their own people -.-?


Incorrect, but it's unsurprising you fail to see the point.


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## Divine Wind (Jul 30, 2016)

9/11 inside job said:


> my *ignore* list growns larger with another israel shill that has penetrated this site.


Excellent.  It's a lot more fun when nutjobs don't post dozens of bullshit replies to my comments.  Enjoy your ignore-ance.


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## Divine Wind (Jul 30, 2016)

9/11 inside job said:


> someone farted in here.^


It's you.


----------



## Divine Wind (Jul 30, 2016)

9/11 inside job said:


> I see zionist agent phoenix farted after my post.His handlers sure got worried sending him immediately afterwards to talk to himself.
> 
> comedy gold that he uses INTERNET links as sources.
> 
> His handlers could have done much better than that of what to instruct him to do.


LOL.  An example of anti-semitic "friendly fire";  one anti-semitic nutjob takes down another in a case of juvenile idiotic mistaken identity.


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## Divine Wind (Jul 30, 2016)

9/11 inside job said:


> ...YOU are the coward here,the fact you ignored EVERYTHING i posted and dismissed it...


Disagreed.  I'm not the coward that spit out a half dozen posts of bile then proclaimed to put another person on ignore before they could respond.  It takes both a special kind of cowardice and mental instability to do such a thing.

As for ignoring your dribble; yeah.  Wanna guess why?


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## rightwinger (Jul 30, 2016)

Skylar said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > If you check the original design of the Twin Towers you will see it was designed by Jews. They designed secret control demo charges into the towers so that when the day came that the towers were hit by two jets flying at 500 mph, the Jews could blame the Saudi hijackers.
> ...


Did you pull down his pants?


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## rightwinger (Jul 30, 2016)

Faun said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


Damn skippy

Phoenix doesn't have a clue to what happened on 9-11. I am the only one accurately describing what happened that day

Don't you love when a truther complains you don't have evidence?


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## Divine Wind (Jul 30, 2016)

rightwinger said:


> Did you pull down his pants?


Most Americans, especially those of middle class or higher and a certain age range were routinely circumcised so that is not a valid test of Judaism.


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## LA RAM FAN (Jul 30, 2016)

someone farted in here.^

that means i got you on ignore troll.


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## LA RAM FAN (Jul 30, 2016)

PredFan said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > PredFan said:
> ...


oh the irony.

a guy who believes oswald shot JFK and he expects people to take him serious when he says the WMD's were a fact.

talk about a guy who refuses to admit when he has been proven wrong.
THIS coming from a guy who ran off with his tail between his legs when i challenged him to prove oswald was shot JFK and then put me on ignore when he was cornered.


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## LA RAM FAN (Jul 30, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
> ...




again its not my fault you are in denial rightwinger is a paid shill like so many others here that they have penetrated these forums. 

again i think its sad your worried so much of the PAST instead of whats going on NOW when 9/11 is the least of our problems we have to worry about from the government right now.


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## LA RAM FAN (Jul 30, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
> ...



Yes he does,this paid troll once made a thread called "9/11 was an inside job and oswald shot JFK"  which i would be more than HAPPY to show you that thread if you doubt me?

also,this will for sure indeed beyond a doubt prove in spades that you do love wasting your time on all these paid shills like rightwinger BECAUSE here is the proof in the pudding that he is incapable of EVER admitting it when he has been proven wrong.

I once a made a thread two years ago saying the rams would be back in LA and he came on the thread and insisted they were never coming back,you can see for yourself right here in this thread.

expect Rams to be back in LA next year.


well guess what? He STILL to this day goes around trolling saying the rams will be playing in st louis this year? if that is not a troll phoenyx in capable of admitting he has been proven wrong,PLEASE tell me what is then.


I can ALSO get you a thread showing where he kept saying to me they were playing in st louis this year long after it was announced they were going back to LA if you want proof I am not making this up.seriously,I am NOT making this up,this is no joke.

I have a valid reason as you can see,to why he wins first prize as USMB's resident troll.


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## Dale Smith (Jul 30, 2016)

Seriously, ANYONE that believes the official horseshit story of 9/11/01 have to be THE dumbest motherfuckers on this planet. It's people like those that buy this load of horseshit that enables them to continue. I am fucking EMBARRASSED to even admit that I was born in America when I am in world wide chat rooms because it's a source of shame. Seriously, you stupid fuckwads that worship at the feet of the biggest terrorist organization on the planet that is USA.INC disgust me in ways that I never thought possible. I don't HAVE to give every fucking minute detail showing the lies and fraud because I have two eyes and some common sense. Those of you that attack posters here that have their eyes open and thinking you are taking up for your beloved "gubermint" which is nothing but a private "for profit" entity are in for the rudest awakening of your life. What I wouldn't give to see the look on your stupid faces when the realization that you were played for an idiot slaps you upside the head.


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## Divine Wind (Jul 30, 2016)

9/11 inside job said:


> someone farted in here.^
> 
> that means i got you on ignore troll.


It's you and you're a pathetic, spineless liar. A sad mental case wearing aluminum foil on your head to ward off "the voices".  Sad.


----------



## Vigilante (Jul 30, 2016)




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## Dale Smith (Jul 30, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> 9/11 inside job said:
> 
> 
> > someone farted in here.^
> ...



Do you REALLY believe the official story of 9/11/01? You always struck me as being intelligent.


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## rightwinger (Jul 30, 2016)

Dale Smith said:


> Divine.Wind said:
> 
> 
> > 9/11 inside job said:
> ...


Tell us what REALLY happened and don't forget the part about the Jews


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## Divine Wind (Jul 30, 2016)

Dale Smith said:


> Do you REALLY believe the official story of 9/11/01? You always struck me as being intelligent.


Yes.  I'm both intelligent and sane.

I'm also an expert on human psychology; albeit narrowed to a specific field.  Ever see that commercial about "I'm a monitor, not a fixer"?  I'm a monitor.

Yes, I believe the official story given it's not perfect.  I certainly don't believe the nonsense about Jews, drones, explosive charges nor any other conspiracy theory beyond the known one.


----------



## Divine Wind (Jul 30, 2016)

Vigilante said:


>


People who live in glass houses.....


----------



## Dale Smith (Jul 30, 2016)

rightwinger said:


> Dale Smith said:
> 
> 
> > Divine.Wind said:
> ...



The Jews had nothing to do with it and I have never stated that it was. 9/11 was done for a litany of reasons most of which had to do with money and to stop insider trading investigations by the SEC plus the laundering of ten year securities set to expire that were obtained by illegal means and would not have passed the sniff test of SEC contractors like Cantor Fitzgerald.


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## rightwinger (Jul 30, 2016)

Dale Smith said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Dale Smith said:
> ...


Yes because AlQaida hated ten year securities


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## Dale Smith (Jul 30, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> Dale Smith said:
> 
> 
> > Do you REALLY believe the official story of 9/11/01? You always struck me as being intelligent.
> ...




I believed it for a very long time and I busted on anyone that dared to say otherwise until I found out that the PATRIOT Act had been written in advance and the apparatus to spy on every fucking thing we did on line and with our cell-phones was already in place. THAT is what set off my bullshit detector. My son constantly bugged me about 9/11 and insisting that the official story was bullshit. When Snowden made his revelations, I decided that maybe I should take my son up on his offer to watch "Loose Change" and if I could debunk it, he would never pester me again...so I did. I was only 30 minutes or so into the documentary before I felt the need to puke. Building 7? I heard almost nothing about it and I chalked it up to collateral damage caused by the falling of Towers 1 &2...until I took the time to watch the footage of it where it came straight down. THAT  was my "come to Jesus" moment and I knew that the whole thing was a lie and a set-up from the "git-go". The Pentagon hit was even worse  and totally implausible. Everyone has to find their own way when it comes to the truth and I was a long time hold out so I can't be hard on others. I have spent hundreds of hours searching the pro and cons of that day wanting to believe that our country wasn't capable of doing this to their own people. Sadly, I have learned that the shadow government does indeed exist and they operate outside of the bounds of even their corporate constitution with no oversight and no worries about the consequences. I have made this my mission to find the truth and try and make sense of how we got this place and some of the places I have been are very dark...like the MK-Ultra program, Operation Paperclip where Nazis that were complicit in genocide and inhumane experiments on the defenseless were "sheep-dipped" and brought over to this country and given jobs and high rankings in the OSS that later became the CIA and in the field of rockets. 

What I have found is that nothing that I believed my country was about was true. If you ever want to look at a different perspective, watch "JFK To 9/11...Everything Is A Rich Man's Trick". You can watch it for free on youtube. It's the best documentary ever done about how things really are.


----------



## Dale Smith (Jul 30, 2016)

rightwinger said:


> Dale Smith said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...




Al qaeda was a CIA term and Osama bin Laden aka "Tim Osman" was a CIA asset and was until the day he died on December 13th, 2001 of Marfan's Syndrome. We was visited by an array of intelligence agencies including the CIA at a military hospital in Dubai in July of 2001.


----------



## Divine Wind (Jul 30, 2016)

Dale Smith said:


> I believed it for a very long time and I busted on anyone that dared to say otherwise until I found out that the PATRIOT Act had been written in advance and the apparatus to spy on every fucking thing we did on line and with our cell-phones was already in place. THAT is what set off my bullshit detector. My son constantly bugged me about 9/11 and insisting that the official story was bullshit. When Snowden made his revelations, I decided that maybe I should take my son up on his offer to watch "Loose Change" and if I could debunk it, he would never pester me again...so I did. I was only 30 minutes or so into the documentary before I felt the need to puke. Building 7? I heard almost nothing about it and I chalked it up to collateral damage caused by the falling of Towers 1 &2...until I took the time to watch the footage of it where it came straight down. THAT  was my "come to Jesus" moment and I knew that the whole thing was a lie and a set-up from the "git-go". The Pentagon hit was even worse  and totally implausible. Everyone has to find their own way when it comes to the truth and I was a long time hold out so I can't be hard on others. I have spent hundreds of hours searching the pro and cons of that day wanting to believe that our country wasn't capable of doing this to their own people. Sadly, I have learned that the shadow government does indeed exist and they operate outside of the bounds of even their corporate constitution with no oversight and no worries about the consequences. I have made this my mission to find the truth and try and make sense of how we got this place and some of the places I have been are very dark...like the MK-Ultra program, Operation Paperclip where Nazis that were complicit in genocide and inhumane experiments on the defenseless were "sheep-dipped" and brought over to this country and given jobs and high rankings in the OSS that later became the CIA and in the field of rockets.
> 
> What I have found is that nothing that I believed my country was about was true. If you ever want to look at a different perspective, watch "JFK To 9/11...Everything Is A Rich Man's Trick". You can watch it for free on youtube. It's the best documentary ever done about how things really are.


Sorry, but not a conspiracy theorist for aforementioned reasons.

The *duty* of our military and intelligence personnel is not only to observe what is going on but to prepare for contingencies.  Only a fucking moron, which means most of the oblivious voting population thought we'd never be hit by terrorists.  This despite the fact they tried to blow up the WTC in 1993.** If the President asked JCS for for a plan to invade Canada or Iceland, I guarantee you they'd pull one out of the drawer within minutes.  That's their fucking job; be prepared for all contingencies.

It's not a conspiracy theory to realize we have a plan to invade Canada.  It's just a book about 2 inches thick.


----------



## Dale Smith (Jul 30, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> Dale Smith said:
> 
> 
> > I believed it for a very long time and I busted on anyone that dared to say otherwise until I found out that the PATRIOT Act had been written in advance and the apparatus to spy on every fucking thing we did on line and with our cell-phones was already in place. THAT is what set off my bullshit detector. My son constantly bugged me about 9/11 and insisting that the official story was bullshit. When Snowden made his revelations, I decided that maybe I should take my son up on his offer to watch "Loose Change" and if I could debunk it, he would never pester me again...so I did. I was only 30 minutes or so into the documentary before I felt the need to puke. Building 7? I heard almost nothing about it and I chalked it up to collateral damage caused by the falling of Towers 1 &2...until I took the time to watch the footage of it where it came straight down. THAT  was my "come to Jesus" moment and I knew that the whole thing was a lie and a set-up from the "git-go". The Pentagon hit was even worse  and totally implausible. Everyone has to find their own way when it comes to the truth and I was a long time hold out so I can't be hard on others. I have spent hundreds of hours searching the pro and cons of that day wanting to believe that our country wasn't capable of doing this to their own people. Sadly, I have learned that the shadow government does indeed exist and they operate outside of the bounds of even their corporate constitution with no oversight and no worries about the consequences. I have made this my mission to find the truth and try and make sense of how we got this place and some of the places I have been are very dark...like the MK-Ultra program, Operation Paperclip where Nazis that were complicit in genocide and inhumane experiments on the defenseless were "sheep-dipped" and brought over to this country and given jobs and high rankings in the OSS that later became the CIA and in the field of rockets.
> ...



The powers that be could never get away with the things that they do if people actually questioned the official narrative. They count on the undying belief of the people that they are always telling them thje truth and noting could be further from the truth. Gulf Of Tonkin incident? Never happened....but the sheeple only learned after the fact. JFK's murder? The Warren Commission had certain records that were not allowed to be seen for 50 years. If it had nothing to hide, why the secrecy? Of course most people already know that the CIA was complicit in his murder. 9/11/01 was a coordinated event by certain rogue elements of the alphabet agencies as was the OKC bombing. All it takes is some reading and some intellectual  curiosity to put the pieces in place.


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## Divine Wind (Jul 30, 2016)

Dale Smith said:


> The powers that be could never get away with the things that they do if people actually questioned the official narrative. They count on the undying belief of the people that they are always telling them thje truth and noting could be further from the truth. Gulf Of Tonkin incident? Never happened....but the sheeple only learned after the fact. JFK's murder? The Warren Commission had certain records that were not allowed to be seen for 50 years. If it had nothing to hide, why the secrecy? Of course most people already know that the CIA was complicit in his murder. 9/11/01 was a coordinated event by certain rogue elements of the alphabet agencies as was the OKC bombing. All it takes is some reading and some intellectual  curiosity to put the pieces in place.


I have no problem with questioning the narrative.  Isn't that what BLM is all about?  Code Pink?  OWS?  I'm guessing you don't agree with them anymore than I do.  However, you do take offense when I disagree with equally assholish questioning groups on the right.


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## Dale Smith (Jul 30, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> Dale Smith said:
> 
> 
> > The powers that be could never get away with the things that they do if people actually questioned the official narrative. They count on the undying belief of the people that they are always telling them thje truth and noting could be further from the truth. Gulf Of Tonkin incident? Never happened....but the sheeple only learned after the fact. JFK's murder? The Warren Commission had certain records that were not allowed to be seen for 50 years. If it had nothing to hide, why the secrecy? Of course most people already know that the CIA was complicit in his murder. 9/11/01 was a coordinated event by certain rogue elements of the alphabet agencies as was the OKC bombing. All it takes is some reading and some intellectual  curiosity to put the pieces in place.
> ...




I am totally on board with blacks standing up against police brutality because police brutality PERIOD has totally gotten out of hand and they are becoming more totalitarian which is a direct reflection of the mandates of this corporate "federal" government. Where I disagree is having George Soros co-opting it in order to do the opposite of what the movement was intended to do.
Code Pink? They seemed to lose steam after the Democrats took control of the House and Senate and the illegal war waged on....doesn't seem to me that Code Pink  really cared about the illegal invasion as much as they were used to give the dems the majority. If I could go back and have a "do over" knowing what I know now? I would have been a very outspoken opponent of the war because it was all bullshit based on a false flag. OWS? Their heart was in the right place as in they knew something was wrong but they didn't understand the true mechanisms that actually run this phony fiat currency system. Again, I wish I knew then what I know now because I would have made it my mission to be the spokesperson and advocate in Dallas when they were occupying the Dallas Federal Reserve Bank and I could have organized it with a mission statement of what it is that we are opposing. It was a lost opportunity and one that I seriously regret. I am not affiliated with the leftwing or the rightwing because the body in the middle controls them both. My hatred of the Fabian socialists that hijacked the dem party in 1980 draw the majority of my ire because they are doing the bidding of the very globalist elites that they claim to be so much against...or are they? The Fabian Socialist symbol is that of a wolf in sheep's clothing. The neocons that took over the repub party are just different sides of the same coin and work "hand in hand" with the left . Any fresh faced member regardless of which party he belongs to gets the "If you want to belong, you better get along and this is how things work" speech. If they don't fall in line, they are either compromised or coerced into complying and if that doesn't work, they are not allowed on any important committees. They are basically shunned and the opposing party pushes enough funds and a new candidate of their choice to fill his position. Like George Carlin said "It's a big club....and you ain't in it". I enjoy trading posts with you... which is rare for me because most that disagree with me are asswipes. You state your case very well and I respect that.


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## Divine Wind (Jul 31, 2016)

Dale Smith said:


> ....My hatred of the Fabian socialists that hijacked the dem party in 1980 draw the majority of my ire because they are doing the bidding of the very globalist elites that they claim to be so much against...or are they? The Fabian Socialist symbol is that of a wolf in sheep's clothing. The neocons that took over the repub party are just different sides of the same coin and work "hand in hand" with the left . Any fresh faced member regardless of which party he belongs to gets the "If you want to belong, you better get along and this is how things work" speech. If they don't fall in line, they are either compromised or coerced into complying and if that doesn't work, they are not allowed on any important committees. They are basically shunned and the opposing party pushes enough funds and a new candidate of their choice to fill his position. Like George Carlin said "It's a big club....and you ain't in it". I enjoy trading posts with you... which is rare for me because most that disagree with me are asswipes. You state your case very well and I respect that.


I never knew there was a name for it until you mentioned it, but that is correct; today's Democratic Party is Fabian Socialist organization.


----------



## LA RAM FAN (Jul 31, 2016)

Vigilante said:


>


Hey idiot,why dont you try a world without  Zionists you stupid fuck since those towers would still  be there if not for THEM.


----------



## LA RAM FAN (Jul 31, 2016)

Dale Smith said:


> Seriously, ANYONE that believes the official horseshit story of 9/11/01 have to be THE dumbest motherfuckers on this planet. It's people like those that buy this load of horseshit that enables them to continue. I am fucking EMBARRASSED to even admit that I was born in America when I am in world wide chat rooms because it's a source of shame. Seriously, you stupid fuckwads that worship at the feet of the biggest terrorist organization on the planet that is USA.INC disgust me in ways that I never thought possible. I don't HAVE to give every fucking minute detail showing the lies and fraud because I have two eyes and some common sense. Those of you that attack posters here that have their eyes open and thinking you are taking up for your beloved "gubermint" which is nothing but a private "for profit" entity are in for the rudest awakening of your life. What I wouldn't give to see the look on your stupid faces when the realization that you were played for an idiot slaps you upside the head.



yeah these shills they cant stand toe to toe in a debate as you found out when you first came here so when they know they cant refute the facts,they engage in name calling EVERYTIME and then go and whine about it when you call the names back acting like they are innocent victems just like their handlers instruct them to do.


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## LA RAM FAN (Jul 31, 2016)

Dale Smith said:


> Divine.Wind said:
> 
> 
> > 9/11 inside job said:
> ...




Obviously you were wrong about him.I took him to school earlier that it was a joint CIA/MOSSAD operation and guess what? He knew he could not counter any of the videos i posted and just like they always do when they know they are cornered,all he could do was stoop to childish name calling.

I gave him the benefit of the doubt that he was not like these stupid fuck trolls like rightwinger and others but he is no different than them.


----------



## LA RAM FAN (Jul 31, 2016)

Dale Smith said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Dale Smith said:
> ...



Notice how agent rightwinger when he cant counter pesky facts all he can do is post funnys?


----------



## LA RAM FAN (Jul 31, 2016)

Dale Smith said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Dale Smith said:
> ...



the juduism jewish people had nothing to do 9/11,THAT is correct,they are true jewish folks and good people who want to reform their corrupt government they have in Israel.The ZIONIST jewish though had a HUGE hand in 9/11. 

I documented earlier in two videos how it was a joint CIA/MOSSAD OPERATION  and what did this troll do? he refused to watch them and engaged in childish name calling in defeat knowing he was licked.because they THINK it wasnt an inside job,they deem themselves to automatically be right refusing to look at the evidence.


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## LA RAM FAN (Jul 31, 2016)

Dale Smith said:


> Divine.Wind said:
> 
> 
> > Dale Smith said:
> ...



you took the troll to school and gave him a MAJOR ass beating same as i did when I showed those two video that it was a joint CIA/MOSSAD operation that he refused to watch.


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## Faun (Jul 31, 2016)

Vigilante said:


>


By that same token, imagine a world without Bush ever being president.


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## Divine Wind (Jul 31, 2016)

9/11 inside job said:


> you took the troll to school and gave him a MAJOR ass beating same as i did when I showed those two video that it was a joint CIA/MOSSAD operation that he refused to watch.


Your violent fantasies are amusing.  Sad, but amusing.  Although I've seen members of forums die of disease, be killed by accident and even arrested (for murder), I've yet to see one commit suicide.  There's always a first time, amirite?


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## LA RAM FAN (Jul 31, 2016)

someone farted in here.^


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## rightwinger (Jul 31, 2016)

9/11 inside job said:


> Dale Smith said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


Irony, thy name is 9/11


----------



## LA RAM FAN (Jul 31, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
> ...



so does that mean you have FINALLY wised up at least about USMB's resident troll rightwinger that he is the biggest troll of them all here the fact he is incapable of EVER saying-you were right,I was wrong. He would commit hari kari FIRST before he would ever admit that he was proven wrong on ANYTHING  and I have proof of that.

Two years ago he was saying the rams would never come back to LA,well even YOU I am sure is aware that they are back in LA right? well guess what? he is STILL going around trolling saying they are playing in st louis this year.I am not kidding,im serious.


I can show you proof if you want? see that just proves what i was asking you earlier that if people like candyass STILL to this day think oswald killed JFK,WHY do you think they will listen to you on 9/11? yet you STILL were foolish enough to keep feeding the trolls saying that you would still talk to candy even though he believes oswald shot JFK. which of course makes no sense to do.

they are ALL like rightwinger,why would you waste your time on someone like rightwinger and these others when they are the same as rightwinger,cant admit when they are proven wrong and are going around STILL saying the rams are not playing in LA this year? if THAT is not being a troll,then what is?

these other defenders of the official version of 9/11 are no different than rightwinger yet you STILL waste your time on them.


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## phoenyx (Aug 3, 2016)

9/11 inside job said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...




I've found it's more interesting to discuss other things for the time being.


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## phoenyx (Aug 18, 2016)

Skylar said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > Skylar said:
> ...



I omitted it because I didn't want to quote the entire page. Looking back, I also see that you'd actually posted it in a previous post as well.
*
*


Skylar said:


> This is the territory that NORAD monitors directly. A place none of the planes on 911 went and you *know* they never went.



As mentioned previously, I hadn't even heard of ADIZ before you brought it up. Regardless of whether NORAD was directly monitoring the allegedly hijacked planes, though, the issue of the War Games happening on 9/11 is extremely pertinent.



Skylar said:


> > Speaking of the ARTCC, they were dealing with known hijackings. Up until July 31, 1997, commanders in the field could have done anything, even shoot down planes, without the need to get approval from the Secretary of Defense (Donald Rumsfeld at the time of 9/11).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I doubt I can "prove it" to you if you're not willing to do atleast a bit of legwork yourself, but I will provide you with my source material:
**
_The shocking failure of the air defense system to protect New York City and the capital would seem to require either an incredible series of failures or an order to stop intercepts -- a stand-down order. Yet apparently there have been no cases of military officials disciplined for gross negligence surrounding 9/11/01, nor have there been publicized reports of commanders admitting to having received stand-down orders.

If the stand-down order were disguised as a procedural change, and enacted well in advance, it might be hidden in plain sight.

CJCSI 3610.01, dated July 31, 1997, required that all requests for assistance in hijackings be approved by the Secretary of Defense. An update to that order, CJCSI 3610.01, dated June 1, 2001, had an exception for emergencies that would seem to give commanders in the field autonomy in ordering intercepts. However, that exception did not cover requests for "potentially lethal assistance", the kind required to respond to the attack:

(DODD 2025.15, Feb. 18, 1997) 4.4 The Secretary of Defense retains approval authority for support to civil authorities involving: use of Commander in Chief (CINC)-assigned forces (personnel units, and equipment) when required under paragraph 4.5, below; DoD support that will result in a planned event with the potential for confrontation with specifically identified individuals and/or groups or will result in the use of lethal force. 1 
Hence, this order may have been the long-sought stand-down order.

If it is true that the standing orders would have required approval by the Secretary of Defense for intercepts on 9/11/01, then, in theory, a defacto stand-down could have been implemented by the secretary simply failing to act during the crisis. However, it is doubtful that insiders planning the attack would have relied on the orders alone to assure that there was no effective military response to the attack. It was likely one of a number of "fixes" that included multiple war games planned on the day of the attack. Thus, even if commanders violated standing orders and ordered intercepts of the commandeered jetliners, they would face depleted interceptor resources and corrupted flight data._**

Source: 9-11 Review: The 'Stand-Down Order'




Skylar said:


> Your word is already pretty much garbage. *Especially since you *just* changed your time line.* As just last page, you insisted that it was 2001, not 1997.



I commend you that you realized this. You are right, I -did- change my timeline, and if you knew me, you'd know I don't do that often. People who research 9/11 can and do make mistakes. I originally found a source that believed that the 2001 order was what changed things sufficiently to make the 'stand down' order. Only later did I find the above source, which made it clear that it was actually the 1997 order that did the change that mattered.


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## phoenyx (Aug 18, 2016)

PredFan said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > PredFan said:
> ...



Saddam has some chemical weapons supplied to him by the U.S. back during the Iran Iraq war. There's no evidence he had anything left after the first Gulf war, much less by 2003.


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## phoenyx (Aug 18, 2016)

Faun said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



The kind of seriousness you flush down the toilet, yeah.


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## phoenyx (Aug 18, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > So you're saying that no government official could possibly contemplate killing their own people -.-?
> ...



What -is- your point then?


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## Faun (Aug 18, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> Faun said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
> ...


Why am I still waiting for you to respond to the Citgo gas station surveillance camera? The one that shows the employees running to the South after the plane flew by their station. The one where a potential shadow of the plane can be seen proving the plane flew south of the Citgo station...


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## phoenyx (Aug 18, 2016)

LA RAM FAN said:


> again its not my fault you are in denial rightwinger is a paid shill like so many others here that they have penetrated these forums.



Contrary to what you believe, you don't have to be a shill to be annoying .


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## phoenyx (Aug 18, 2016)

Dale Smith said:


> Seriously, ANYONE that believes the official horseshit story of 9/11/01 have to be THE dumbest motherfuckers on this planet.



I don't see it that way. I simply think that many people trust that U.S. government officials could be involved in such a thing.


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## Divine Wind (Aug 18, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> What -is- your point then?


That such conspiracies are impossible because too many patriotic and honest Americans would know about it. 

This won't stop conspiracy nuts from claiming otherwise, but reasonable, sane people understand the truism.


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## phoenyx (Aug 18, 2016)

Faun said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > Faun said:
> ...



I remember that post. I told you it was blurry, but more to the point, I couldn't make heads or tails or your evidence. I did consider the possibility that perhaps the employees were running -towards- where they saw the plane fly away, rather then away from one. I believe Lagasse or Brooks said that that's exactly what they did.


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## phoenyx (Aug 18, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > What -is- your point then?
> ...



First, why don't we start with who you believe had to be involved?


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## Divine Wind (Aug 18, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> First, why don't we start with who you believe had to be involved?


Nice dodge.  First you completely disregard my comment then, after you failing to address my point, you backtrack with a question asking "What -is- your point then?"  When I answer that, you again dodge with the above question.

Unlike you, I'm happy to answer honestly:  Fundamentalist Islamic radicals.  Specifically al-Qaeda led by Osama bin Laden.  Terrorists have been attacking free nations, including the US, for decades.  It came as no surprise to me they made a second attack on the WTC.  What was a surprise was their audacity, and a luck, in the 9/11 attack.


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## phoenyx (Aug 18, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > First, why don't we start with who you believe had to be involved?
> ...



It's not a dodge, it's a question.



Divine.Wind said:


> First you completely disregard my comment



Not only did I not disregard your comment, the question I asked was based on it.



Divine.Wind said:


> then, after you failing to address my point,



You made an unsubstantiated assertion. I could have told you that, but I didn't feel the need. Since you seem stuck on it, though, I've decided I have no choice. -Now- will you answer my question?



Divine.Wind said:


> you backtrack with a question asking "What -is- your point then?"



Wait, you're going back several posts? Why don't you just quote the exchange?



Divine.Wind said:


> Unlike you, I'm happy to answer honestly:  Fundamentalist Islamic radicals.



You believe that fundamentalist Islamic radicals single handedly pulled off 9/11, got it. Hopefully you'll answer my question now?



Divine.Wind said:


> Terrorists have been attacking free nations, including the US, for decades.



Sure. The question is who those terrorists are. I know you think you know, but that doesn't mean you -actually- know.



Divine.Wind said:


> It came as no surprise to me they made a second attack on the WTC.



Based on that comment, I have a feeling you don't really know that much about the first attack...


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## Faun (Aug 18, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> Faun said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
> ...


So what if it's blurry since you can still see something fall over due to the plane flying overhead, precisely at the moment a shadow is seen. As I recall, you even said CIT acknowledged it was the shadow from the plane, but that only proved the plane was on the north side of the station. As far as the employees... people don't run away from something they want to see. In fact, they can be seen running out the door and looking towards the Pentagon. Clearly, they ran to where they heard the plane.


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## phoenyx (Aug 18, 2016)

Faun said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > Faun said:
> ...



Yes, I remember saying something like that too.



Faun said:


> As far as the employees... people don't run away from something they want to see.



Exactly.



Faun said:


> In fact, they can be seen running out the door and looking towards the Pentagon. Clearly, they ran to where they heard the plane.



We all know that the Pentaplane approached the Pentagon. Why can't you consider the possibility that they were looking to where the plane -went- instead of running away from where the plane -was-?


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## Faun (Aug 18, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> Faun said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
> ...


I have no doubt they looked to where the plane went once they got outside. The point is, they heard it fly by. Jose Velasquez described it as it felt like an "earthquake."

They ran to see what caused the noise.

They ran to the *SE* entrance of their store.

The same side of the Citgo where the shadow can be seen.

What more evidence do you need to know the plane flew south of the Citgo?


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## phoenyx (Aug 18, 2016)

Faun said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > Faun said:
> ...



Responded to in the Pentaplane Flyover Theory thread:
9/11: The Pentaplane Flyover Theory


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## SAYIT (Aug 18, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> Divine.Wind said:
> 
> 
> > ...then, after you failing to address my point, you backtrack with a question asking "What -is- your point then?
> ...



 I'm certain the irony of you claiming another has posted "an unsubstantiated claim" will zoom right over your head (kinda like AA77 which you claim flew over the Pentagon).


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## Divine Wind (Aug 18, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> Divine.Wind said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
> ...


You are free to believe whatever the voices in your head tell you to believe. 

If you want to believe thousands of Americans are in on a conspiracy to murder thousands of Americans, no one can stop you.


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## phoenyx (Aug 19, 2016)

SAYIT said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > You made an unsubstantiated assertion...
> ...



Says the guy who doesn't even bother to back up his unsubstantiated assertion. If you haven't seen Monty Python's "argument clinic", I recommend you give it a go. This isn't an argument, it's just contradiction.


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## phoenyx (Aug 19, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > Divine.Wind said:
> ...



I never said that thousands were in on it. Quit making assumptions.


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## Divine Wind (Aug 19, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> I never said that thousands were in on it. Quit making assumptions.


Then you are either lying or stupid.   Thousands of Americans were involved in 9/11 from the attack itself (ATC, airline workers, security, etc) to the aftermath (rescue efforts and investigation).  

Any fucking moron who claims it was all faked, that Bush planted dynamite charges in the Towers or that the Pentagon was hit by a drone has to also be claiming all of those people are part of the conspiracy.....or that the moron believes all of those people are morons themselves who can't figure out the difference between a drone and a 757.


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## phoenyx (Aug 23, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > I never said that thousands were in on it. Quit making assumptions.
> ...



Ad hominem can silence a discussion, but they certainly don't win an argument by logic. Anyway, continue like that and I'll just put you on ignore.


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## Faun (Aug 24, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> Divine.Wind said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
> ...


This discussion is over anyway. You've been checkmated with that surveillance video from the Citgo station. It proved everything you claimed about flight #77 was wrong.


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## phoenyx (Aug 24, 2016)

Faun said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > Divine.Wind said:
> ...



It may well be. It takes 2 to tango. I'm only one side of the debate. Anyway, as to the Pentaplane flyover theory thread, I'm pretty sure I'll get back to it, I just think I want a bit of time off from all the ad hominem attacks in general. I've been really getting to like the Clean Debate Zone. I just made a thread there regarding current U.S. wars, which (in theory) could eventually lead to the subject of 9/11.


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## Divine Wind (Aug 24, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> Ad hominem can silence a discussion, but they certainly don't win an argument by logic. Anyway, continue like that and I'll just put you on ignore.


It's not an ad hominem when it's true: you 9/11 was a conspiracy by our own government, that airliners didn't really crash into buildings and that controlled demolitions were used to bring down buildings, yet you also assert that only a handful of people were needed to not only accomplish this, but cover it up.  That's stupid or you are lying about the numbers of people involved.


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## Faun (Aug 24, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> Faun said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
> ...


I've not been attacking you personally yet you still refuse to acknowledge or refute the Citgo surveillance video. It matters not which thread we're on, this one or the other one; since the Citgo surveillance video proves the plane flew south of the Citgo, which in turn, proves it flew into the Pentagon, which in turn, proves commercial planes were flown into the WTC.


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## Divine Wind (Aug 24, 2016)

Faun said:


> I've not been attacking you personally yet you still refuse to acknowledge or refute the Citgo surveillance video. It matters not which thread we're on, this one or the other one; since the Citgo surveillance video proves the plane flew south of the Citgo, which in turn, proves it flew into the Pentagon, which in turn, proves commercial planes were flown into the WTC.


Expect him to either:
1) Deny it exists.
2) Claim it was faked.
3) Attack you in order to derail the conversation away from this flaw in his argument.
4) Run, dodge and, generally, not discuss it with you.


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## Faun (Aug 24, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> Faun said:
> 
> 
> > I've not been attacking you personally yet you still refuse to acknowledge or refute the Citgo surveillance video. It matters not which thread we're on, this one or the other one; since the Citgo surveillance video proves the plane flew south of the Citgo, which in turn, proves it flew into the Pentagon, which in turn, proves commercial planes were flown into the WTC.
> ...


He's been doing #4 despite my efforts to engage him. I'm not sure if he understands I read that as a concession.


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## Divine Wind (Aug 24, 2016)

Faun said:


> He's been doing #4 despite my efforts to engage him. I'm not sure if he understands I read that as a concession.


IMHO, it's irrational to expect irrational people to act rational.

Secondly, conspiracy theorists are mentally hampered (at best) and ill at worst.  They are desperate to make sense of a chaotic world and cannot accept the maxim "Shit happens" because it scares the crap out of them.  They feel that if they can make sense of it, give a reason for it, then it gives them a calming for their tortured souls.

I don't expect to convince phoenyx of anything nor am I trying to do so.  It's a complete waste of time to attempt rationalizing with an irrational person.  My sole purpose is to show that rational people disagree with the conspiracy theorist nonsense.


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## phoenyx (Sep 4, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > Ad hominem can silence a discussion, but they certainly don't win an argument by logic. Anyway, continue like that and I'll just put you on ignore.
> ...



Google defines an ad hominem as "(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining." As such, whether or not it is true is thus irrelevant. I think I'd have been more accurate in simply calling what many do here as vilification- and I am aware that it occurs on both sides. After discussing vilification and other issues with a poster in the Clean Debate subforum, I've decided to once again try to get into this discussion in this sub forum that doesn't have the guidelines of the Clean Debate subforum. One of his solutions was to simply put people who irritated him too much on ignore. Up until recently, I hadn't put anyone on ignore. I've now put one poster in this forum on ignore, at said poster's suggestion, and may start adding more people to the list, in the hopes that this will alleviate the frustration I have found here.


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## phoenyx (Sep 4, 2016)

Faun said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > It may well be. It takes 2 to tango. I'm only one side of the debate. Anyway, as to the Pentaplane flyover theory thread, I'm pretty sure I'll get back to it, I just think I want a bit of time off from all the ad hominem attacks in general. I've been really getting to like the Clean Debate Zone. I just made a thread there regarding current U.S. wars, which (in theory) could eventually lead to the subject of 9/11.
> ...



You've attacked truthers in general, of which I consider myself to be a card carrying member. As far as I'm concerned, if you attack a group I'm a member of, you're attacking me as well. As to the rest of your post, as I mentioned in the past, I do intend to get back to the Pentaplane Flyover Theory thread, eventually.


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## Divine Wind (Sep 4, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> You've attacked truthers in general, of which I consider myself to be a card carrying member. As far as I'm concerned, if you attack a group I'm a member of, you're attacking me as well. As to the rest of your post, as I mentioned in the past, I do intend to get back to the Pentaplane Flyover Theory thread, eventually.


Dude, calling yourself a "truther" doesn't mean you are truly seeking the truth as evidenced by your refusal to consider the thousands of Americans who, if this conspiracy theory were true, would have to keep it a secret.  

Conspiracies happen and are often useful, but they can't be kept secret for long.  Example; the Manhattan Project.  The world knew about it with a few years of its beginning and the fucking Soviets had the secrets of the project within 4 years of the end of WWII.


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## phoenyx (Sep 4, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > You've attacked truthers in general, of which I consider myself to be a card carrying member. As far as I'm concerned, if you attack a group I'm a member of, you're attacking me as well. As to the rest of your post, as I mentioned in the past, I do intend to get back to the Pentaplane Flyover Theory thread, eventually.
> ...



True, simply calling oneself a truther does not guarantee that a person is seeking the truth.



Divine.Wind said:


> as evidenced by your refusal to consider the thousands of Americans who, if this conspiracy theory were true, would have to keep it a secret.



First of all, what is it that you think thousands of Americans would have had to have kept secret?


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## candycorn (Sep 4, 2016)

Truthers are pretty much the scum of the earth.


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## phoenyx (Sep 4, 2016)

candycorn said:


> Truthers are pretty much the scum of the earth.



I've seen you vilify truthers before. I've finally decided the best solution for me personally is to simply put you on ignore. You have the distinction of being the second person on the list. I have a feeling you won't be the last.


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## SAYIT (Sep 4, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > You've attacked truthers in general, of which I consider myself to be a card carrying member. As far as I'm concerned, if you attack a group I'm a member of, you're attacking me as well. As to the rest of your post, as I mentioned in the past, I do intend to get back to the Pentaplane Flyover Theory thread, eventually.
> ...



You are, of course, applying adult concepts such as logic, perspective, and Occam's Razor. None of the "Truther's" alternate universe theories make a lick of sense. It is absurd to cling desperately to 9/11 CTs that rely on tens of thousands of participants or to insist AA77 veered off (unseen) at the last possible moment only to be replaced by another projectile (like a missile, also unseen) when AA77 would have done the same damage. To believe AA77 then flew off (again, unseen) to some secret place where the jet, its crew and its passengers were disposed of (all unseen) is the kind of insanity that can overtake weak minded CT sheeple and those with less than honest (profit, fame, glory), even insidious agendas.

When a member's spell is broken the Movement's rabid dogs circle the wagons and go into full attack mode. The former CT - as if awakened from a bad dream - is inclined to say things like: *“I thought the term ‘Truth Movement’ meant that there’d be some search for truth. I was wrong. I was the new Stalin. The poster boy for a mad movement.”* - Charlie Veitch

The 9/11 conspiracy theorist who changed his mind


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## Faun (Sep 4, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> Faun said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
> ...


So you finally come back to your own thread, not to address the nail in the coffin to your nonsense ... but to whine about how folks are treating you??

You're done. Your thread is a fail and you failed miserably to prove your case. It appears you've even given up trying.


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## Divine Wind (Sep 4, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> First of all, what is it that you think thousands of Americans would have had to have kept secret?


Everything from the "conspiracy" to blow up the WTC and Pentagon to the investigators of the attack.   Also factor in the friends and relatives of the victims.


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## Divine Wind (Sep 4, 2016)

candycorn said:


> Truthers are pretty much the scum of the earth.


Disagreed.  Liars are scum of the Earth.  Truthers are, like other conspiracy theorists, just sad people who are incapable of handling the chaos of reality so they trick themselves into believing they "know" the truth.  It's okay to confront their delusions, but they should be pitied, not scorned.


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## Faun (Sep 4, 2016)

SAYIT said:


> Divine.Wind said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
> ...


Of course no plane flew over the Pentagon. Had it, it would have been clearly visible in this video taken from the other side of the Pentagon...


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## phoenyx (Sep 4, 2016)

Faun said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > Faun said:
> ...



Don't tell me you were waiting with baited breath .



Faun said:


> not to address the nail in the coffin to your nonsense ...



Sigh -.- Just because I'm not interested in going over the details of a single point regarding the Pentagon attack doesn't mean that it's "the nail in the coffin" of those who disagree with the official conspiracy theories concerning 9/11.


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## phoenyx (Sep 4, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > First of all, what is it that you think thousands of Americans would have had to have kept secret?
> ...



Many people question the official conspiracy theory, including 300+ survivors and family members:
Patriots Question 9/11 - Responsible Criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report


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## Faun (Sep 4, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> Faun said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
> ...


Just to clarify... that single point being tbe visual evidence the plane flew south of the Citgo station.

But I understand why you choose to ignore it.


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## phoenyx (Sep 4, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > Truthers are pretty much the scum of the earth.
> ...



I decided to google the term "truther". Here's google's definition: **a person who doubts the generally accepted account of an event, believing that an official conspiracy exists to conceal the true explanation**

I find it unfortunate that the definition has been narrowed down only to those who doubt a generally accepted account of an event. I certainly believe the generally accepted accounts of -some- events, just not all of them. It's kind of like the label "conspiracy theorists". It's come to mean only someone who believes in conspiracies that are generally not accepted, but the fact of the matter that the official narrative is also a conspiracy theory, it's just the official one.

As to liars, it's a broad definition. I haven't met a person who has said they have never lied, nor do I believe that lying is always a bad thing. It depends what you're lying about. If you were in Nazi Germany and harbouring a known jewish fugitive, but lied about it to the Gestapo, I would say that was a courageous thing to do. It's all about context.


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## phoenyx (Sep 4, 2016)

Faun said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > Faun said:
> ...



No need, it's been addressed over and over again. We both know what your point is, we both know that CIT disagrees with your stance on that, and we both know who I trust more. There are -many- pieces of evidence regarding 9/11, and even the Pentaplane flyover, but you choose to go over the one point that I'm not interested in pursuing -.-.


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## Faun (Sep 4, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> Faun said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
> ...


According to you, CIT believes the shadow proves the plane flew north of the Citgo station. You're certainly welcome to believe that but I gotta tell ya.... you're crazy for believing that.

The shadow appeared on the south side of the Citgo and the sun was to the east. On what planet do you exist where the laws of physics do not apply??


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## candycorn (Sep 4, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > Truthers are pretty much the scum of the earth.
> ...



Pity is reserved for the pitiful.  With twoofers you have folks who are shown to be wrong and insist they are correct


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## candycorn (Sep 4, 2016)

Faun said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > Faun said:
> ...



Correction, supposed visual evidence.  We have no proof that the people we saw on the videos are who they said they were


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## Divine Wind (Sep 4, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> Many people question the official conspiracy theory, including 300+ survivors and family members:
> Patriots Question 9/11 - Responsible Criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report


Out of how many survivors and families?  Please don't mix apples and oranges when you answer.


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## Divine Wind (Sep 4, 2016)

candycorn said:


> Pity is reserved for the pitiful.  With twoofers you have folks who are shown to be wrong and insist they are correct


Since, as previously stated on several occasions including above, I consider CTers to be mentally deficient, perhaps even ill, I do consider them pitiful.


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## phoenyx (Sep 4, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > Many people question the official conspiracy theory, including 300+ survivors and family members:
> ...



I don't know. What is your point? There's also this story, which I found interesting...
9/11 families criticized for 'silent' settlement in negligence case


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## phoenyx (Sep 4, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > Pity is reserved for the pitiful.  With twoofers you have folks who are shown to be wrong and insist they are correct
> ...



You've said things like this before. I'm tired of these villifications, on the ignore list you go.


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## phoenyx (Sep 4, 2016)

Faun said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > Faun said:
> ...



Not you too Faun -.-? I'll let you off this time, you've posted a lot of good posts, and if I put -you- on ignore, the discussion will probably grind to a halt, as I've consistently found that you had the most in depth points- we could actually go on for long stretches without you insulting me or truthers in general. As to this shadow- put simply, I'm not interested in trying to figure out what some grainy pixels mean. CIT looked at it, determined it meant that plane was on the North side, I'll trust their judgement. But there are -tons- of other pieces of evidence that I have looked at in depth. I believe there's a lot of posts of yours in the Pentaplane thread that I haven't yet addressed that have nothing to do with this shadow you seem so fond of. I may be getting back to those points soon.


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## Divine Wind (Sep 4, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> I don't know. What is your point? ...


The fact you claim how many question the 9/11 investigation but you don't have a fucking clue how many support it.  It's called Confirmation Bias.  You have it.  Want to be skeptical?  Go for it, I fully support skepticism.  Want to only support conspiracy theory bullshit and completely disregard common sense and factual investigations?  Sorry, dude.  I won't do that.


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## Divine Wind (Sep 4, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> You've said things like this before. I'm tired of these villifications, on the ignore list you go.


An expect result of a person who runs from truth and the facts.


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## Faun (Sep 4, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> Faun said:
> 
> 
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You're certainly welcome to ignore me or the points which utterly break the back of your conspiracy, but you do so at your own peril as others here are not as eager to turn a blind's eye to the facts.

In the photo below, I've place a *red circle* representing the general vicinity for where that shadow appeared in the video. I've place a *green arrow* indicating the general direction of sunlight. These "estimates" are not exact but the shadow did appear south of the Citgo station and though I don't know the exact azimuth angle of the sun at that hour on that day, the sun was still east of the gas station. The plane was about 100' to 150' off the ground.






So if you believe that shadow determines the plane was on the north side of the Citgo, explain how the laws of physics, which dictate the plane would *have to be* in a direct path between its shadow and the sun, could be north of the Citgo but cast a shadow to the south of it.

And I've engaged pretty much every angle of your conspiracy claims you've posted. I'd appreciate the same in return.


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## Divine Wind (Sep 4, 2016)

Faun said:


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Dude, you're trying to reason with an irrational person.  

When discussing with a person who believes the Moon landings were faked, it's not necessary to refute their every complaint nor teach them how to build a Saturn V.  It's only necessary to disagree with them enough to show others, i.e. reasonable people, that it's irrational.  To believe the Moon landings were faked requires all the nations of the Earth, especially American enemies such as the USSR and PRC, to either be completely fucking stupid (unlikely) or in on the conspiracy (even more unlikely).  

The fact remains irrational people are irrational.  Reasoning with them doesn't work.  Reason only works with rational people.


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## phoenyx (Sep 4, 2016)

Faun said:


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Sigh -.-. You put up a video that alleges to show a shadow. What exact minute/second is the shadow at? Can't believe you've actually got me looking -.-


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## Faun (Sep 4, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> Faun said:
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I hear ya, but consider when phoenyx joined the debate, he said...



phoenyx said:


> Hello everyone. I'm something of a 9/11 buff (falling on the inside job side of the fence), *but I don't mind listening to those* who swear that the Official Conspiracy Theory (OCT) is where it's at, so long as their main goal isn't to insult those who disagree with them.


...only now that the heat is turned up on his conspiracy, he tries to ignore facts he finds inconvenient to his conspiracy.

One of the early responses to his posts was from candycorn who, with a surgeon's precision, summed up phoenyx beautifully...


candycorn said:


> Well, obviously, the pictures are all form the Pentagon on the morning of 9/11/01.  As the evidentiary hearing ZM’s trial attest.  *It also shows us that no matter what, you’ll just claim that everything presented that contradicts you is made up or doesn’t meet your standard of  proof.*  Hence, there is little reason to try to convince you of anything.  Instead, you have convinced us you’re just another cheap 9/11 lunatic twofer with no legs to stand on.


Despite her accuracy, I engaged phoenyx's claims and entertained his links. To his credit, for the most part, he did in kind ....

.... until we got to the Citgo surveillance videos.

Then he buried his head firmly in the sand.


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## SAYIT (Sep 4, 2016)

Faun said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > ...I'll let you off this time, you've posted a lot of good posts, and if I put -you- on ignore, the discussion will probably grind to a halt...
> ...



The real peril, as I believe Phoenyx sees it, is that once he accepts the preponderance of evidence about "what really happened" on 9/11 his entire house of cards will fall and he will be left with nothing but the unbearable truth that his belief system - his religion if you will - was built on false idols. Only by desperately clinging to it can he avoid jumping out the nearest window.



Divine.Wind said:


> Faun said:
> 
> 
> > You're certainly welcome to ignore me or the points which utterly break the back of your conspiracy, but you do so at your own peril as others here are not as eager to turn a blind's eye to the facts... And I've engaged pretty much every angle of your conspiracy claims you've posted. I'd appreciate the same in return.
> ...



Most of the "Truthers" are simply lame, 9/11 sheeple but the more ambitious were (most have tossed in the towel) seeking fame, glory and profit while others had (and may still be driven by) some hateful agenda that has nothing to do with facts, truth, or even the events of 9/11.


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## Faun (Sep 4, 2016)

phoenyx said:


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At 4:41....


Camera #4 shows something fall over as the plane flies by...






At the same time, a shadow appears for a single frame...


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## Divine Wind (Sep 4, 2016)

Faun said:


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The bottom line is nutjobs are mentally ill.  Respect them as human beings, but don't give into their madness.  Obviously you and I are agreed he's deluded about the facts of 9/11, but mocking and ridiculing a mentally ill person is cruel, not the actions of a sane person seeking to refute the insane ramblings of a nutjob.  You and I disagree politically, but we are agreed Bush didn't plant explosives in the WTC and the Pentagon wasn't blown up by the CIA with drone.


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## phoenyx (Sep 4, 2016)

Faun said:


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I looked at 4:41, as well as before and after. I saw what looked like a flash at 4:45, but no shadow. Not sure which one is camera 4, that might be part of me not seeing this thing...


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## Faun (Sep 4, 2016)

phoenyx said:


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Camera 4 is the middle video on the left column. The still photos I included indicate what I'm talking about.


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## phoenyx (Sep 4, 2016)

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Alright, I saw it. I'm skeptical as to that being a shadow of a plane. But perhaps it was. According to witnesses, the plane -did- veer southwards after passing the Citgo gas station. What Lagasse and Brooks were adamant on is that the plane passed -north- of the Citgo gas station, though, not south.


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## Faun (Sep 4, 2016)

phoenyx said:


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No witness said the plane veered "southward." The CIT witnesses said it went from NE to E.

But again.... the shadow appears to the south of the Citgo. How does the plane fly to the north of the Citgo but cast a shadow to the south when the sun is in the east?


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## phoenyx (Sep 5, 2016)

Faun said:


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Good point- see, I only have a vague idea of where this alleged shadow is supposed to be. Based on what you've said, and based on what witnesses like Lagasse, Brooks and Turcios have said, all of whom were at the Citgo gas station, my conclusion is that the blip that you think was a shadow of the plane was actually something else.


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## Faun (Sep 5, 2016)

phoenyx said:


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So when it's convenient for you, you don't believe CIT? Because you did acknowledge they agreed it was the plane's shadow; but that lent proof to the plane flying north of the Citgo.

Also, there's nothing else that could possibly generate a shadow that large. It appears at precisely the same time the plane flew past the Citgo.


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## candycorn (Sep 5, 2016)

SAYIT said:


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I agree.  I’ve long since held that the average 9/11 truther is here to get attention that he can’t garner in real life.


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## Faun (Sep 5, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> Faun said:
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I came across these and thought they do a good job representing [roughly] where the plane would have been based on that shadow...


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## phoenyx (Sep 8, 2016)

Faun said:


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If those pixels were the shadow of a plane, that'd be one thing, but right now, all you have is a few pixels that darken- that's hardly a lot of evidence that it was a plane's shadow. Meanwhile, we have Turcios, Brooks and Lagasse swearing that the plane passed -North- of the Citgo gas station, and Lagasse makes it clear that had it passed south of the Citgo gas station, he wouldn't have even seen it. Just listen to Lagasse's interview- he's not only saying that it came from the North side of the Citgo gas station, he's describing -specific landmarks- that it passed, all on the North side of the Citgo gas station...


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## Faun (Sep 8, 2016)

phoenyx said:


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You're funny. When you thought the shadow proved the plane flew north of the Citgo, you agreed it was the plane's shadow because that's what CIT said. But when you're shown evidence that the shadow proves the plane flew south of the Citgo, then it's just "pixels."



Except that it is the plane's shadow. It appears on the video at the precise moment the plane flew past the Citgo. We know this because that same camera captures something falling over without being touched and then seconds later, everyone in the store runs to see what caused the loud noise that felt like an "earthquake," according to Jose Velasquez...

_ Three months ago, on September 11 at 9:38 a.m., a Tuesday, Jose Velasquez heard the rumble of imminent death overhead. "I knew something was wrong. The planes come more from the north and west [to land at Reagan National Airport] not from the south. And not so low."

He was talking on the telephone that morning to a friend who was feeding him gauzy reports about airplane crashes at the World Trade Center in New York. *But Velasquez slammed down the receiver and raced outside when he felt the gas station he supervises suddenly begin to tremble from a too-close airplane.*

"It was like an earthquake," the Costa Rican native said last week. What Velasquez felt above him almost within touching distance was American Airlines Flight 77 just seconds before impact._

more... ​
And where did Jose, and the others in the store, run to to see what cause the "rumble of imminent death?"

*To the southeast entrance of the store. *

It all adds up.

That puts the plane on the south side of the Citgo, where many witnesses claimed they saw it...

Where it lines up perfectly with the downed lamp posts...

Where it lines up perfectly with damage done to the Pentagon...

Where it shows the pilot flew straight into the Pentagon, and not making some last second unexplainable turn to the north, away from the Pentagon.

Game, set, match.


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## MisterBeale (Sep 8, 2016)

Faun said:


> phoenyx said:
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*Let’s Talk About the American Deep State*
Let’s Talk About the American Deep State | Foreign Policy Journal


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## SAYIT (Sep 8, 2016)

MisterBeale said:


> Faun said:
> 
> 
> > That puts the plane on the south side of the Citgo, where many witnesses claimed they saw it... Where it lines up perfectly with the downed lamp posts... Where it lines up perfectly with damage done to the Pentagon... Where it shows the pilot flew straight into the Pentagon, and not making some last second unexplainable turn to the north, away from the Pentagon. Game, set, match.
> ...



 Foreign Policy Journal - not to be confused with ForeignPolicy.com or the Foreign Policy Institute - is an obscure alt-news website founded in 2008 by the equally obscure Jeremy R Hammond.

The fact that one can find Hammond on Iran's PressTV and links to wackos like Paul Craig Roberts ("Are You a Mind-Controlled CIA Stooge?)" at FPJ would tell a rational poster to apply some skepticism. 

Only the truly desperate would seek validation for his belief system at Foreign Policy Journal.


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## MisterBeale (Sep 8, 2016)

SAYIT said:


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Nice, I love how you always attack the source, rather than the facts and the content of the source when ever pressed.  Weak.





Sorry it's not CFR media.  Most would rather not be tools of the establishment.  You would do better with facts than with your silly conspiracy theory to support your POV.

Paul Craig Roberts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Paulie (Sep 8, 2016)

Building 7. No plane hit it. Still collapsed at almost free fall speed into its footprint. A steel reinforced building, no less. The explanation of collateral damage from the towers collapsing makes absolutely zero physical, engineering, structural, logical, etc. sense. It just doesn't.  That's the only aspect of 9/11 that I feel is even worth discussing. If 9/11 really was staged, building 7 was where their mistake was made.


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## Faun (Sep 8, 2016)

Paulie said:


> Building 7. No plane hit it. Still collapsed at almost free fall speed into its footprint. A steel reinforced building, no less. The explanation of collateral damage from the towers collapsing makes absolutely zero physical, engineering, structural, logical, etc. sense. It just doesn't.  That's the only aspect of 9/11 that I feel is even worth discussing. If 9/11 really was staged, building 7 was where their mistake was made.


How is it not feasible that a building collapses after burning uncontrollably for 7 hours after sustaining structural damage caused by a 110 story building near it falling, raining tons of debris on it?


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## Paulie (Sep 8, 2016)

Faun said:


> Paulie said:
> 
> 
> > Building 7. No plane hit it. Still collapsed at almost free fall speed into its footprint. A steel reinforced building, no less. The explanation of collateral damage from the towers collapsing makes absolutely zero physical, engineering, structural, logical, etc. sense. It just doesn't.  That's the only aspect of 9/11 that I feel is even worth discussing. If 9/11 really was staged, building 7 was where their mistake was made.
> ...


I'm not saying it's not feasible that he building could collapse in SOME manner...but the actual manner in which it did?  Sorry.


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## Paulie (Sep 8, 2016)

I'm not gonna get into a debate on this. I just wanted to make my drive by opinion known. Have a good day


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## Faun (Sep 8, 2016)

Paulie said:


> Faun said:
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It fell in a manner without explosives used in controlled demolitions. It also fell in two stages in a manner unlike controlled demolitions.


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## Faun (Sep 8, 2016)

Paulie said:


> I'm not gonna get into a debate on this. I just wanted to make my drive by opinion known. Have a good day


I understand.  Can't say that I blame ya.


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## SAYIT (Sep 8, 2016)

MisterBeale said:


> SAYIT said:
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Look, you can find "validation" for the Flat Earth, Faked Lunar Landing, Sandy Hook Hoax and all manner of foil-hat CTs by plumbing the depths of the WWW but just because some fellow foil-hater posts something on his website doesn't make it true or factual. Like most rational peeps I understand that getting "clicks" on your site can pay off financially but it isn't really worth anyone's time to take that crap seriously unless you're getting paid or a flaming loon. Are you getting paid? No?


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## LA RAM FAN (Sep 9, 2016)

Paulie said:


> I'm not gonna get into a debate on this. I just wanted to make my drive by opinion known. Have a good day


very smart NOT to.the two posters that have come on here and posted defending the official version are shills on the governments payroll.they got plants like faun and sayit EVERYWHERE on message boards troillng night and day.they are here to try to goad you into debating them so they can waste your time on them in their hopes of derailing any kind of truth discussion about the case.to argue with them is just plain idiotic because you are just pleasing their bosses who sent them here to troll,taking their bait as they want you to.

Best thing in the world to do with shills like them is put them on ignore.
I cant say that phrase enough times it is so true,sadly many people ignore that advise and like the idiots they are,they feed them. dont be one of them.


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## LA RAM FAN (Sep 9, 2016)

MisterBeale said:


> SAYIT said:
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you should know by NOW agent sayit only attacks the source when he cant refute the facts.


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## LA RAM FAN (Sep 9, 2016)

Paulie said:


> Building 7. No plane hit it. Still collapsed at almost free fall speed into its footprint. A steel reinforced building, no less. The explanation of collateral damage from the towers collapsing makes absolutely zero physical, engineering, structural, logical, etc. sense. It just doesn't.  That's the only aspect of 9/11 that I feel is even worth discussing. If 9/11 really was staged, building 7 was where their mistake was made.



You took them to school MAJOR BIG TIME!!!!

they can now come out of the dummies corner and take the dummies hat off.

I have said this a million times because it is so much the truth.Bld 7 is the crux of the 9/11 coverup commission these shills cannot get around.Nobody has ever been able to debunk the facts that explosives brought down bld 7.the shills on here like agents sayit and faun can only sling shit in defeat in their desperate attempts to try and derail the truth discussion on 9/11 like the paid monkey trolls they are.


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## KissMy (Sep 9, 2016)

Putin called Bush the day before on 9/10/2001 & told him AL-Qaeda just launched their big attack on the USA, so watch your back. Bush & his friends left town & didn't warn the public.


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## LA RAM FAN (Sep 9, 2016)

speaking of paid shills,looks like another has come out of the woodwork.this ONE proves to the whole  world he ALWAYS LIES NO MATTER WHAT THE SUBJECT IT IS. agent KISSMY

He came on my Rams thread and INSISTED the Rams were staying in st louis and never going back to LA and when it became obvious they WERE coming back,he BACKPEDDLED and said -I NEVER SAID THEY WERE NOT COMING BACK.

except the problem for him is he is so stupid he did not understand that USMB keeps records of what you said in the past and here he is on RECORD saying they were never coming back,saying kroneke was just using the land purchase for "I love this word of his" LEVERAGE to fleece the taxpayers in st louis for more money for a new stadium in ST LOUIS.

post# 56. I cant make these things up.its all there in black  and white.

expect Rams to be back in LA next year.

And agent KISS MY claims "I" am the idiot in all debates.

Hey agent kiss my,how is all that LEVERAGE that Kroneke is using according to you,coming along for a new NFL stadium in st louis?


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## LA RAM FAN (Sep 9, 2016)

by the way agent kissmy,how are your THEORYS coming along after saying the rams would never come back to LA again,after you backpeddled on that  that  one LYING several months later that you never said that,LATER back peddling when it became obvious you were wrong that it was NOT a leverage ploy by Kroneke,

how is your LATEST  THEORY of yours coming along that the Rams would not be in LA for another five years or so from now because they would have to have a new stadium for LUXARY SUITES coming along?

. I took you to school on that one as well same as i do with the towers coming down as a controlled demolition,TRYING to reason with you back then that they would use the LA colisum in the interim while waiting for a new stadium the SAME WAY the vikings were using the college facility of minnesota till THEY got their new stadium.when i took you to school on thatyou ran off with your tail between your legs and did this-

you either have to LIE when you are losing a debate,or you run off with your tail between your legs everytime with me,one of the two.

agent kiss my was too much of an idiot to understand what i was trying to tell him back then that it is the CHARGERS AND RAIDERS "ARE"  LA as LEVERAGE for a new stadium but the Rams owner stan kronke was NEVER using LA as leverage for a new stadium in st louis which breaks agent kiss mys heart so much he has to LIE to avoid admitting defeat.

i OWN AGENT KISS MY on the Rams coming back to LA same as I always own him in our 9/11 debates.He always gets checkmated by me no matter what the topic is and he can only CRY and LIE in defeat.


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## MaryL (Sep 9, 2016)

All the facts are out about what happened on 9/11. No cover ups or conspiracies in that regard. But  what bothers me, and what I find most suspicious, is how the Saudis where treated with kid gloves. Any other country that perpetuated such  attack on the US in the past would have resulted in a deceleration of war and swift retaliatory strikes.
  But, we did NOTHING. Well, until 2 years later, when Bush invaded a county that had no ties to 9/11 or weapons of mass destruction. That was sad and pathetic. And what did we gain from invading Iraq?


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## Faun (Sep 9, 2016)

LA RAM FAN said:


> Paulie said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not gonna get into a debate on this. I just wanted to make my drive by opinion known. Have a good day
> ...


Hey now.... how am I supposed to collect my government shill money if you freaks stop posting about this conspiracy shit??

C'mon.... prove your case.....


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## Faun (Sep 9, 2016)

LA RAM FAN said:


> Paulie said:
> 
> 
> > Building 7. No plane hit it. Still collapsed at almost free fall speed into its footprint. A steel reinforced building, no less. The explanation of collateral damage from the towers collapsing makes absolutely zero physical, engineering, structural, logical, etc. sense. It just doesn't.  That's the only aspect of 9/11 that I feel is even worth discussing. If 9/11 really was staged, building 7 was where their mistake was made.
> ...


Took us to school?? All he said was the building fell down and then he ran away. Who doesn't already know that?


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## MaryL (Sep 9, 2016)

I am really confused as to all this 9/11 conspiracy stuff. Why would the US government and the Israeli Massad do such a thing? Um, given all the terrorist events SINCE  were clearly orchestrated by Muslim terrorist, clearly shows how determined and consistent pattern that transcends speculation.  So far, America government  ignores the massive evidence that Saudi Arabia was entirely responsible for the attack. And  now there is even a law suit against the Saudis for perpetrating the attack. Really, a law suit. No, we won't bomb the holy hell out of them and destroy them. A Law suit. That is it. Japan did less at Pearl harbor. Did we SUE the Japanese imperial government?


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## MisterBeale (Sep 9, 2016)

MaryL said:


> I am really confused as to all this 9/11 conspiracy stuff. Why would the US government and the Israeli Massad do such a thing? Um, given all the terrorist events SINCE  were clearly orchestrated by Muslim terrorist, clearly shows how determined and consistent pattern that transcends speculation.  So far, America government  ignores the massive evidence that Saudi Arabia was entirely responsible for the attack. And  now there is even a law suit against the Saudis for perpetrating the attack. Really, a law suit. No, we won't bomb the holy hell out of them and destroy them. A Law suit. That is it. Japan did less at Pearl harbor. Did we SUE the Japanese imperial government?



This is where you are confused.  None of the terrorist events since were orchestrated by actual "terrorists."  Wahhabism is tied up with the Saudi Royal family and has been funded by TPTB and the western intelligence agencies for decades.  Since probably WWII.  Considering Islam is part of Masonry, it might go back to an even earlier date. . . . who knows?  

These other terrorist activities since 9/11 have all been hoaxes or done by Gladio-B.  Intelligence ops.  There is a great series of interviews done by James Corbett with former FBI translator Sibel Edmonds who has excellent expertise in all of this.  I highly recommend you sit down and watch all four hours, plus their Paris coverage of that material if you really want to know what is going on in the world.

Operation Gladio/B - Wikispooks


The reason all this has been perpetrated are three fold in nature.

Here is the first.  In the past, the US military industrial complex, a huge and unwieldy bureaucracy which employs millions, and includes Wall Street and an unimaginably large privatized intelligence network, which used to be geared toward fighting the Soviet Union.  After the cold war was over, certain elements of the civilian government wanted to demobilized it, but found it was too entrenched.  With all of that capacity, some other enemy was needed.  Basically, they just took elements, TOOLS of this entrenched establishment, and created enemies out of it.  FAKE enemies, and used these as policy instruments.  See the now famous PNAC document, Project for a New American Century.

The second part is what they planned to achieve with these fake enemies.  What they wanted to achieve was, and is, a one world hegemonic power.  It was a very ambitious reordering of the map of the middle east.  In the process, they also hoped to realign the politics of the US, Europe, and the world as a whole.  You need to really study the map, the allies, the foes, etc. to understand why they wish to redrew the map and shift the power in this way, but the ultimate game of kings is international politics.  The plans of these elites is nothing less than a wholesale shifting of how people think about the Earth's military, economic, and spiritual future.  See Agenda 21.

The last, and side goal is the short term prospects of Israel.  This is just one of those, well, if we can benefit our friends in our long range goal, great.  If they get in the way, they might just get shafted.  



The reason we ignore the evidence that the Saudi's are responsible for 9/11, is because they are only partly responsible.


If some bad parent tells his kid to do something bad, which in turn will make the whole family gain, how often does he punish that same child when the child is caught?

Precisely, he won't punish the child if it is the family that benefited, and the parent gave the child orders.  If the child were punished, then next time the parent gave the child orders, the child would not comply.  This is why the Saudi's will be shielded from any consequential effects of this revelation.  They were just following orders of the US deep state.


. . . and if enough folks DO blame the Saudi's, do you think the elites care?  They are busy brainwashing folks with AGW.  Once the economy doesn't need Saudi's oil, at that point, eventually, Islam will be on the chopping block.  When WWIII breaks out, the Muslims will be the enemy.  
Do you think that will be good for the House of Saud?


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## MaryL (Sep 9, 2016)

MisterBeale said:


> MaryL said:
> 
> 
> > I am really confused as to all this 9/11 conspiracy stuff. Why would the US government and the Israeli Massad do such a thing? Um, given all the terrorist events SINCE  were clearly orchestrated by Muslim terrorist, clearly shows how determined and consistent pattern that transcends speculation.  So far, America government  ignores the massive evidence that Saudi Arabia was entirely responsible for the attack. And  now there is even a law suit against the Saudis for perpetrating the attack. Really, a law suit. No, we won't bomb the holy hell out of them and destroy them. A Law suit. That is it. Japan did less at Pearl harbor. Did we SUE the Japanese imperial government?
> ...


 We didn't split hairs to this degree when Japan bombed Pearl harbor, and that did far less damage than 9/11. That didn't end well for the Imperial Japanese government. Sometimes things are what they are, Saudi Arabia attacked us and got away with it. So far, anyway.  To me the larger question should be : WHY HAVE WE LET THE SAUDIS GET AWAY WITH THIS? There is a conspiracy therewith. No more hairsplitting, blame shifting,  end equivocating.  Saudi Arabia  was responsible for 9/11, the worst ever attack on American soil. And we are gonna SUE them?


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## MisterBeale (Sep 9, 2016)

MaryL said:


> MisterBeale said:
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That's what I am trying to tell you, those 28 pages made it appear like Saudi Arabia was alone responsible for 9/11.  But they weren't.  It isn't that simple, it is far more complex.

Have you ever heard of the Safari Club?  That is just one example of how the Deep State in America cooperates with the Deep State in Saudi Arabia.


As far as Pearl Harbor goes?  Yeah, that was a snow job as well.  The Japanese were pushed up against the wall, and then lured into attacking Pearl Harbor.  The top brass and political elites KNEW they were going to attack, because the Japanese were pressed into a corner and lured into it.  The Anglo-American elites knew that the attack was eminent and where it was coming.

Why do you think none of our carriers were there when the attack came?  Projecting navel power back then, as it is today, was about carrier task forces.






*Pearl Harbour memo shows US warned of Japanese attack *
* On the 70th anniversary of Pearl Harbour, the attack that propelled America into the Second World War, a declassified memo shows that Japanese surprise attack was expected. *
Pearl Harbour memo shows US warned of Japanese attack


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## MaryL (Sep 9, 2016)

MisterBeale said:


> MaryL said:
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Well, Japan, like Saudi Arabia made it's opposition to the US clear but  neither came out and specifically  stated were and when or how they would attack us. Saudi Arabia pulls it's punches and we let them get away with it.  But most of the logistical support, most of the attackers and the religious and moral support came SPECIFICALLY from Saudi Arabia for 9/11. Plainly laid at the feet of Saudi Arabia, and it's clear as day. They funded, enabled and promoted an ACT OF WAR. And  WHAT do we do in response? GW Bush Invades Iraq for unproven WMD's we can't prove  it had. Wow, but we can ignore Saudi Arabia for it's support of 9/11. Even bigger Wow. Doesn't any of this outrage anyone here?


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## MisterBeale (Sep 9, 2016)

MaryL said:


> MisterBeale said:
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Here's some recent journalism done on the Deep State.  It just hit the presses.


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## MaryL (Sep 9, 2016)

Well, the use of fully loaded civilian aircraft  as human missiles was unprecedented in history. We as human beings thought that they were off limits. Arab Saudis thought otherwise. Arabia attacks the US, and NOTHING is off limits with them! We offended THEM  by having a base full of infidels on their "holy land" during Desert Storm, that's it.  Really? . We should like accidentally  be crashing a few cruise missiles into the Kaaba in Mecca about now, and then say: OOPS!  How did THAT happen? It must of just been a extraordinary action   by a few extremist  people, not out fault at all.. Sue us already. yeah, let's see how that works.


----------



## Faun (Sep 9, 2016)

MisterBeale said:


> MaryL said:
> 
> 
> > I am really confused as to all this 9/11 conspiracy stuff. Why would the US government and the Israeli Massad do such a thing? Um, given all the terrorist events SINCE  were clearly orchestrated by Muslim terrorist, clearly shows how determined and consistent pattern that transcends speculation.  So far, America government  ignores the massive evidence that Saudi Arabia was entirely responsible for the attack. And  now there is even a law suit against the Saudis for perpetrating the attack. Really, a law suit. No, we won't bomb the holy hell out of them and destroy them. A Law suit. That is it. Japan did less at Pearl harbor. Did we SUE the Japanese imperial government?
> ...








Thanks, that's another dollar in my government shill account!


----------



## SAYIT (Sep 9, 2016)

LA RAM FAN said:


> you should know by NOW agent sayit only attacks the source when he cant refute the facts.



What everyone knows by now is that everyone - even Mr Beale who isn't the brightest bulb on the tree - knows you are a short-bus child whose "facts" - like those of Beale - are nothing more than the lunatic rants of a child.

Does this look familiar (you're so special we built you an extra short bus):








LA RAM FAN said:


> ...I took you to school on that one as well same as i do with the towers coming down as a controlled demolition...



The only way you could take anyone to school is if you could drive but no no one is goofy enough to allow drooling fuktards like you to drive. As it is, there is no evidence of a controlled demo but you really aren't interested in facts or truth.


----------



## SAYIT (Sep 9, 2016)

MaryL said:


> ...Sometimes things are what they are, Saudi Arabia attacked us and got away with it. So far, anyway.  To me the larger question should be : WHY HAVE WE LET THE SAUDIS GET AWAY WITH THIS? There is a conspiracy therewith. No more hairsplitting, blame shifting,  end equivocating.  Saudi Arabia  was responsible for 9/11, the worst ever attack on American soil...



Wait ... you mean the Joooo didn't perpetrate 9/11? The foil hat cabal is not going to be happy with you


----------



## racialreality9 (Sep 10, 2016)

I'm not completely sure if the Jews did 9/11.  I certainly think some high ranking Mossad and Jews in NYC knew it was coming.  But of course, it would be good for them, so they sacrificed the Jews who did die.

The Jews benefited enormously from 9/11.  Think about it.  The United States is now a police state run by Jews, and is engaged in the terminal war against radical Islam.

The Jews are actually willing to sacrifice some of their own now and then for the greater cause, just as the Islamic terrorists are.


----------



## MisterBeale (Sep 10, 2016)

racialreality9 said:


> I'm not completely sure if the Jews did 9/11.  I certainly think some high ranking Mossad and Jews in NYC knew it was coming.  But of course, it would be good for them, so they sacrificed the Jews who did die.
> 
> The Jews benefited enormously from 9/11.  Think about it.  The United States is now a police state run by Jews, and is engaged in the terminal war against radical Islam.
> 
> The Jews are actually willing to sacrifice some of their own now and then for the greater cause, just as the Islamic terrorists are.


Completely agree.

It's not some huge grand conspiracy.  It's clandestine interests of an underbelly Deep State.  Powerful interests acting at odds with the public good. . . or in their own self interests.   Sometimes they benefit from each other, sometimes they are at odds. . .


----------



## Faun (Sep 10, 2016)

racialreality9 said:


> I'm not completely sure if the Jews did 9/11.  I certainly think some high ranking Mossad and Jews in NYC knew it was coming.  But of course, it would be good for them, so they sacrificed the Jews who did die.
> 
> The Jews benefited enormously from 9/11.  Think about it.  The United States is now a police state run by Jews, and is engaged in the terminal war against radical Islam.
> 
> The Jews are actually willing to sacrifice some of their own now and then for the greater cause, just as the Islamic terrorists are.


Damn it. I knew Obama was a secret Jew! That Muslim shit was just a cover. Thanks for the info, bro.


----------



## LA RAM FAN (Sep 10, 2016)

someone farted in here.^


----------



## LA RAM FAN (Sep 10, 2016)

racialreality9 said:


> I'm not completely sure if the Jews did 9/11.  I certainly think some high ranking Mossad and Jews in NYC knew it was coming.  But of course, it would be good for them, so they sacrificed the Jews who did die.
> 
> The Jews benefited enormously from 9/11.  Think about it.  The United States is now a police state run by Jews, and is engaged in the terminal war against radical Islam.
> 
> The Jews are actually willing to sacrifice some of their own now and then for the greater cause, just as the Islamic terrorists are.


----------



## Faun (Sep 10, 2016)

LA RAM FAN said:


> someone farted in here.^


Cha-ching! Another dollah.


----------



## KissMy (Sep 12, 2016)

Bush allowed 9/11 attack on US even after he was given all the intelligence about Who, What, Where, When, Why & How we would be attacked. The Anthrax attacks were committed by Bruce Edwards Ivins of the United States Army!

Bush's friend from high school General Tommy Franks issued stand-down orders to allow Osama Bin Laden to escape. Bush never tried to capture of kill Osama!

Bush did not go after Saudi or Iran or people who aided the 9/11 attacks on US. Instead he "stove piped" non-credible charges against Iraq & toppled the country giving Saudi & Iran control of Iraq & more power!!!

Bush got 8,000 Americans killed & 45,000 wounded. Caused massive inflation & wasted $6 Trillion. He barely killed any Al-Qaeda Terrorist. Obama is the man who had Al-Qaeda Terrorist exterminated.

I don't like Obama, but it's a fact that Obama's worst day is still better than Bush on his best day!!!


----------



## OldUSAFSniper (Sep 12, 2016)

I came onto this forum today, specifically looking for the conspiracy theory threads of 9/11.  You know, the ones that defy the information of 99% of the structural engineers who have knowledge of what actually occurred on 9/11.  I have never heard the 'facts' that the Jews were responsible for the attack.  

Amazing... simply amazing...


----------



## SAYIT (Sep 12, 2016)

OldUSAFSniper said:


> I came onto this forum today, specifically looking for the conspiracy theory threads of 9/11.  You know, the ones that defy the information of 99% of the structural engineers who have knowledge of what actually occurred on 9/11.  I have never heard the 'facts' that the Jews were responsible for the attack.
> 
> Amazing... simply amazing...



That's the thing about conspiracy theories ... they rarely contain any facts and most of them are simply a way for knuckle-draggers and goose-steppers to blame the Joooo for pretty much everything.


----------



## Faun (Sep 12, 2016)

OldUSAFSniper said:


> I came onto this forum today, specifically looking for the conspiracy theory threads of 9/11.  You know, the ones that defy the information of 99% of the structural engineers who have knowledge of what actually occurred on 9/11.  I have never heard the 'facts' that the Jews were responsible for the attack.
> 
> Amazing... simply amazing...


If you're looking to earn some extra cash, let me know. I can hook you up with the government so you too can be a paid government shill. You just have to be willing to deny every conspiracy.


----------



## ThunderKiss1965 (Sep 12, 2016)

An attack that killed over 3,000 people was kept secret and orchestrated by a Government that can't even keep the public from learning about a B&E and a BJ in the White House ? Riiiight.


----------



## AsherN (Sep 15, 2016)

Faun said:


> OldUSAFSniper said:
> 
> 
> > I came onto this forum today, specifically looking for the conspiracy theory threads of 9/11.  You know, the ones that defy the information of 99% of the structural engineers who have knowledge of what actually occurred on 9/11.  I have never heard the 'facts' that the Jews were responsible for the attack.
> ...



That's nice of you. But I'm already beeing paid by ZOG.


----------



## LA RAM FAN (Sep 15, 2016)

ThunderKiss1965 said:


> An attack that killed over 3,000 people was kept secret and orchestrated by a Government that can't even keep the public from learning about a B&E and a BJ in the White House ? Riiiight.



You are in serious denial mode.the government has a long history of keeping secrets from the world. For over 40 years for example,it was kept secret from the people that there was a secret covert war by the CIA ran with thousands involved that the american people never know about for years.   oh and speaking of the Bj giving to clinton,that investigation was given something like several hundreds of thousands of dollars given to it where the 9/11 coverup commission had something like just a measly few thousand dollars devoted to it,what a joke of an investigation plus the fact Bush and cheney got to testify TOGETHER no less behind closed doors,keystone cops investigation.

yes listen to the unproven version of the governments by out corrupt media who have a very long history of lying to the american people instead of all those enginners and witnesses that heard explosives.THATS being objective.


----------



## LA RAM FAN (Sep 15, 2016)

AsherN said:


> Faun said:
> 
> 
> > OldUSAFSniper said:
> ...



before last post i see two other paid shills trolled here as well as you.sounds like agent sayit referred you all here to fart and troll in this thread.


----------



## ThunderKiss1965 (Sep 15, 2016)

LA RAM FAN said:


> ThunderKiss1965 said:
> 
> 
> > An attack that killed over 3,000 people was kept secret and orchestrated by a Government that can't even keep the public from learning about a B&E and a BJ in the White House ? Riiiight.
> ...



a secret covert war by the CIA thats not a secret and its been years since 9/11 still nothing but wakadoodle theories. By the way the Commision was given 9 million dollars to investigate.


----------



## LA RAM FAN (Sep 16, 2016)

still ANOTHER fart from one of the paid shills.^


----------



## phoenyx (Oct 4, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > ...I've done no such thing. I certainly believe that a few people would have had to have been involved, and others may have been used and then killed once they unknowingly fulfilled their function. Certain Raytheon employees, allegedly on 3 of the 4 9/11 flights, come to mind. Others who undermined the official story concerning 9/11 after the fact also died deaths that I and others deem to be suspicious.....
> ...



Thousands? The only official investigation that I'm aware of to even attempt to cover all of what happened on 9/11 was the 9/11 Commission. It was composed of 11 Commissioners and a few staff members:
9/11 Commission - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A little history on said commission:
**
*Work of commissioners after the commission ceased its functions*
_Months after the commission had officially issued its report and ceased its functions, Chairman Kean and other commissioners toured the country to draw attention to the recommendations of the commission for reducing the terror risk, claiming that some of their recommendations were being ignored. Co-chairs Kean and Hamilton wrote a book about the constraints they faced as commissioners titled Without Precedent: The Inside Story of the 9/11 Commission.

The book was released on August 15, 2006 and chronicles the work of Kean (Commission Chairman) and Hamilton (Commission Vice-Chairman) of the 9/11 Commission. In the book, Kean and Hamilton charge that the 9/11 Commission was "set up to fail," and write that the commission was so frustrated with repeated misstatements by officials from The Pentagon and the Federal Aviation Administration during the investigation that it considered a separate investigation into possible obstruction of justice by Pentagon and FAA officials.[22]_**

Source: 9/11 Commission - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Divine.Wind said:


> In order for your theory of the Pentagon crash to be true, either all those who worked in the Pentagon, who investigated the accident and were friends and coworkers of those who died would have to be completely stupid or part of the conspiracy.



That statement is wrong on so many different levels. Have you ever heard of a woman named Sibel Edmonds?


----------



## SAYIT (Oct 4, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> Divine.Wind said:
> 
> 
> > Sure, a handful could have carried out the act, but I'm talking about the thousands involved in the investigation and, according to you, the cover-up.
> ...



That's camel crap.

The NIST employed a number of independent, non-governmental expert agencies to investigate and determine the nature and cause of the damage from the 9/11 terror attack on US targets. The American Society of Engineers was just one.

Perhaps you should consider what the experts at the American Society of Engineers concluded ... unless, of course, you want to add them to your ever-growing list of co-conspirators:

On September 11, 2001, a hijacked commercial airliner was intentionally crashed into the building in an act of terrorism. One hundred eighty-nine persons were killed and a portion of the building was damaged by the associated impact, deflagration, and fire.

That same day the American Society of Civil Engineers established a building performance study (BPS) team (that included one NIST researcher) to examine the damaged structure and make recommendations for the future. Team members possess expertise in structural, fire, and forensic engineering. The BPS team's analysis of the Pentagon and the damage resulting from the attack was conducted between September 2001 and April 2002.

The members of the BPS team inspected the site as soon as was possible without interfering with the rescue and recovery operations. They reviewed the original plans, the renovation plans, and available information on the material properties of the structure. They scrutinized aircraft data, eyewitness information, and fatality records; consulted with the urban search and rescue engineers, the chief renovation engineer, and the engineer in charge of the crash site reconstruction; and examined the quick, focused assessments of the disaster conducted by the United States Army Corps of Engineers and Pentagon Renovation Program staff.

The BPS team concluded that the impact of the aircraft destroyed or significantly impaired approximately 50 structural columns. The ensuing fire weakened a number of other structural elements. However, only a very small segment of the affected structure collapsed, approximately 20 minutes after impact. The collapse, fatalities, and damage were mitigated by the Pentagon's resilient structural system. Very few upgraded windows installed during the renovation broke during the impact and deflagration of aircraft fuel.

Pentagon Building Performance Study 2001


----------



## Divine Wind (Oct 4, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> *Thousands? The only official investigation that I'm aware of to even attempt to cover all of what happened on 9/11 was the 9/11 Commission. It was composed of 11 Commissioners and a few staff members:*
> 9/11 Commission - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> A little history on said commission:
> ...


Dude, that's the commission.  There were thousands of investigators from various agencies, both public and private (airlines, pilot union, NATCA, etc), involved in the investigation, the clean-up and the aftermath. 

If there really was no evidence of a 757 in the Pentagon, don't you think someone out of those investigators and clean up would have been curious?  

The bottom line here is that such events involve thousands of people.  They'ld have to be completely stupid or traitorous in order to not notice it was all fake as you assert.


----------



## phoenyx (Oct 10, 2016)

MaryL said:


> All the facts are out about what happened on 9/11. No cover ups or conspiracies in that regard.



What draws you to that conclusion?



MaryL said:


> But  what bothers me, and what I find most suspicious, is how the Saudis where treated with kid gloves. Any other country that perpetuated such  attack on the US in the past would have resulted in a [declaration] of war and swift retaliatory strikes. But, we did NOTHING. Well, until 2 years later, when Bush invaded a county that had no ties to 9/11 or weapons of mass destruction. That was sad and pathetic. And what did we gain from invading Iraq?



Iraq wasn't the first country the U.S. invaded after 9/11. The U.S. invaded Afghanistan less than a month after 9/11. Wikipedia has some details on it:
**
_On September 26, 2001, fifteen days after the 9/11 attack, the U.S. covertly inserted seven members of the CIA's Special Activities Division and Counter Terrorism Center (CTC), led by Gary Schroen, into the Panjshir Valley, north of Kabul. They formed the Northern Afghanistan Liaison Team.[97][98][99] They brought three cardboard boxes filled with $3 million in $100 bills to buy support.[100] Jawbreaker linked up with General Abdul Rashid Dostum, head of the Northern Alliance, and prepared the way for the introduction of Army Special Forces into the region.[101]:127ff [102][103][104]

Two weeks later, Operational Detachment Alpha (ODA) teams 555 and 595, both 12-man Green Beret teams from the 5th Special Forces Group, plus Air Force Combat Controllers, were airlifted by helicopter from the Karshi-Khanabad Air Base in Uzbekistan[101]:127ff more than 300 kilometers (190 mi) across the 16,000 feet (4,900 m) Hindu Kushmountains in zero-visibility conditions by two SOAR MH-47E Chinook helicopters. The Chinooks were refueled in-flight three times during the 11-hour mission, establishing a new world record for combat rotorcraft missions at the time. They linked up with the CIA and Northern Alliance. Within a few weeks the Northern Alliance, with assistance from the U.S. ground and air forces, captured several key cities from the Taliban.[103][105][106]

On 7 October 2001, the U.S. officially launched military operations in Afghanistan. Airstrikes were reported in Kabul, at the airport, at Kandahar (home of Mullah Omar), and in the city of Jalalabad.[107] The day before the bombing commenced, Human Rights Watch issued a report in which they urged that no military support be given to the Northern Alliance due to their human rights record.[108]_
**

Source: United States invasion of Afghanistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Anyway, the military industrial complex gained a great deal from invading not just Iraq, but Afghanistan:
Companies Profiting the Most From War

Ever heard of a TV series called The X-Files? There was a brief spinoff series from it called The Lone Gunmen. Here's a clip from the very first episode...

It aired 6 months before 9/11.


----------



## irosie91 (Oct 10, 2016)

In the epic novel by  JOHN STEINBECK    --"EAST OF EDEN"---
   Caleb---the son of Adam----makes a fortune selling BEANS
   to the army because WORLD WAR I had driven up the price
   of BEANs.   According to  Phoenyx------THEREFORE, 
   CALEB,  THE SON OF THE FARMER ADAM---OBVIOUSLY
   CONSPIRED TO START WORLD WAR I

                did anyone tell John Steinbeck?


----------



## phoenyx (Oct 10, 2016)

SAYIT said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > Divine.Wind said:
> ...



No, NIST only investigated the damage of the WTC buildings. I'm talking about an official investigation that allegedly examined all the events of 9/11. That being said, NIST itself admits it never came up with a theory as to how the WTC buildings collapsed- they just assumed that it was "inevitable" and left it at that. Kevin Ryan explains in the following interview:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/why-are-nists-911-wtc-reports-false-and-unscientific/5399091




SAYIT said:


> The American Society of Engineers was just one.



Even NIST couldn't support The American Society of Engineer's "Pancake Theory"; all the evidence demonstrated the buildings simply couldn't collapse in that manner. Again, the above article points out the tests done demonstrating that it simply couldn't have happened that way.


----------



## irosie91 (Oct 10, 2016)

globalresearch is not a valid source------anyone interested----
GOOGLE that idiot site


----------



## SAYIT (Oct 10, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> MaryL said:
> 
> 
> > All the facts are out about what happened on 9/11. No cover ups or conspiracies in that regard.
> ...



Well, for 1 thing we live in the instant-info age. Nothing that floats into anyone's mind these days isn't uploaded and spread within minutes. Hell, 9/11 CT books hit Amazon before the Tower's dust had settled yet nothing of real value has come from any "Truther's" lips (or books).

For another, the size and complexity of even the most Spartan 9/11 CTs would have required thousands of co-conspirators and thousands more who would have seen the unusual activities during prep, commission, and cover-up. Not one has come forward with anything but foil-hat speculation.

Last but not least it has been over 15 years and you and your "Truther" Movement are still regurgitating the same, old, fully debunked BS from 10 years ago and when your silliness is refuted by someone with the patience of Job, you simply pull out another of your theories (or on another thread) and pop up in another hole. Kinda like this:


----------



## phoenyx (Oct 10, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > *Thousands? The only official investigation that I'm aware of to even attempt to cover all of what happened on 9/11 was the 9/11 Commission. It was composed of 11 Commissioners and a few staff members:*
> ...



Indeed.



Divine.Wind said:


> There were thousands of investigators from various agencies, both public and private (airlines, pilot union, NATCA, etc), involved in the investigation, the clean-up and the aftermath.



Thousands of investigators from various agencies? So far, we have the 9/11 Commission, which has 11 Commissioners, as well as perhaps 80 staff members, the most important member being Philip Zelikow, the Executive Director. Here's an interesting bit of information you may not have known about:

*_*9/11 Commission Executive Director Philip Zelikow and Ernest May, a long-time associate of Zelikow and consultant to the commission, complete an outline of the commission’s final report, although the commission has barely began its work and will not report for another 16 months. The outline is detailed and contains chapter headings, subheadings, and sub-subheadings. The outline anticipates a 16-chapter report (note: the final report only has 13) that starts with a history of al-Qaeda and Osama bin Laden’s 1998 fatwa against the US. There will then be chapters on US counterterrorism policy, threat reporting leading up to 9/11, and the attacks themselves will be in chapter seven (in the final report, the day of 9/11 chapter is moved to the start). 
"Blinding Effects of Hindsight" - Zelikow and May even have a chapter ten entitled “Problems of Foresight—And Hindsight,” with a sub-chapter on “the blinding effects of hindsight,” (actually chapter 11 in the final report, slightly renamed “Foresight—And Hindsight;” the “blinding effects” sub-heading does not appear in the final version, but the chapter starts with a meditation on the value of hindsight). 
Kept Secret - Zelikow shows the report to Commission Chairman Tom Kean and Vice-chairman Lee Hamilton and they like it, but think it could be seen as evidence that they have pre-determined the outcome. Therefore, they all decide it should be kept secret from the commission’s staff. According to May it is “treated as if it were the most classified document the commission possessed.” Zelikow comes up with his own internal classification system, labeling it “Commission Sensitive,” a phrase that appears on the top and bottom of each page. 
Staff Alarmed - When the staff find out about it and are given copies over a year later, they are alarmed. They realize that the sections of the report about the Bush administration’s failings will be in the middle of the report, and the reader will have to wade past chapters on al-Qaeda’s history to get to them. Author Philip Shenon will comment: “Many assumed the worst when they saw that Zelikow had proposed a portion of the report entitled ‘The Blinding Effects of Hindsight.’ What ‘blinding hindsight’? They assumed Zelikow was trying to dismiss the value of hindsight regarding the Bush administration’s pre-9/11 performance.” In addition, some staffers begin circulating a parody entitled “The Warren Commission Report—Preemptive Outline.” One of the parody’s chapter headings is “Single Bullet: We Haven’t Seen the Evidence Yet. But Really. We’re Sure.” _[9/11 COMMISSION, 7/24/2004; SHENON, 2008, PP. 388-389]**

Source: Complete 911 Timeline: Role of Philip Zelikow


----------



## phoenyx (Oct 10, 2016)

SAYIT said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > MaryL said:
> ...



The fact that people can publish pretty much whatever "floats" into their minds is not evidence that the official story is true.



SAYIT said:


> Hell, 9/11 CT books hit Amazon before the Tower's dust had settled yet nothing of real value has come from any "Truther's" lips (or books).



Have you actually -read- any books from those who doubt if not disbelieve the official story?


----------



## SAYIT (Oct 10, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
> ...



So you are saying the ASE was incompetent or that they are in on the conspiracy and if that were true wouldn't the NIST simply rubber stamp ASE's findings?

The bottom line remains your claim that only "11 Commissioners and a few staff members" conducted the 9/11 investigation is - like pretty much everything you post - absolute BS.



phoenyx said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
> ...



No but it does cause rational people to apply the same measure of skepticism to what they find on the Internet that they do to the official findings. In fact, given the creds and reputations of the non-gov't agencies that investigated 9/11, I'd say extra skepticism should be heaped on the "findings" of those in it for fame, fortune and book tours. That you find GlobalResearch to be a credible source says all one needs to know about you.


----------



## Divine Wind (Oct 10, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> ....Thousands of investigators from various agencies? So far, we have the 9/11 Commission, which has 11 Commissioners, as well as perhaps 80 staff members, the most important member being Philip Zelikow, the Executive Director. Here's an interesting bit of information you may not have known about:
> 
> *_*9/11 Commission Executive Director Philip Zelikow and Ernest May, a long-time associate of Zelikow and consultant to the commission, complete an outline of the commission’s final report, although the commission has barely began its work and will not report for another 16 months. The outline is detailed and contains chapter headings, subheadings, and sub-subheadings. The outline anticipates a 16-chapter report (note: the final report only has 13) that starts with a history of al-Qaeda and Osama bin Laden’s 1998 fatwa against the US. There will then be chapters on US counterterrorism policy, threat reporting leading up to 9/11, and the attacks themselves will be in chapter seven (in the final report, the day of 9/11 chapter is moved to the start).
> "Blinding Effects of Hindsight" - Zelikow and May even have a chapter ten entitled “Problems of Foresight—And Hindsight,” with a sub-chapter on “the blinding effects of hindsight,” (actually chapter 11 in the final report, slightly renamed “Foresight—And Hindsight;” the “blinding effects” sub-heading does not appear in the final version, but the chapter starts with a meditation on the value of hindsight).
> ...


You don't believe there were thousands of people from the FAA, NTSB, airline safety experts, the military, the FBI, the CIA, various first responder groups such as the NYPD and NYFD and a multitude of others were involved in the investigation?  Do you truly believe only 11 commissioners and their 80ish staffers were involved?


----------



## phoenyx (Oct 10, 2016)

SAYIT said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > SAYIT said:
> ...



I'm saying that ASCE's "Pancake Theory" was so bad that even NIST couldn't support it. But don't take my word for it. NIST makes it perfectly clear that they don't support it:
***8. Why didn't NIST consider a "controlled demolition" hypothesis with matching computer modeling and explanation like it did for the "pancake theory" hypothesis?*

...NIST's findings do not support the "pancake theory" of collapse, which is premised on a progressive failure of the floor systems in the WTC towers (the composite floor system—that connected the core columns and the perimeter columns—consisted of a grid of steel "trusses" integrated with a concrete slab; see diagram). **

Source: FAQs - NIST WTC Towers Investigation


----------



## phoenyx (Oct 10, 2016)

SAYIT said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > SAYIT said:
> ...



That sounds reasonable.



SAYIT said:


> In fact, given the creds and reputations of the non-gov't agencies that investigated 9/11, I'd say extra skepticism should be heaped on the "findings" of those in it for fame, fortune and book tours.



For starters who, precisely, are you referring to? "non-gov't agencies that investigated 9/11" is a very broad brush.



SAYIT said:


> That you find GlobalResearch to be a credible source says all one needs to know about you.



What have you got against GlobalResearch anyway?


----------



## phoenyx (Oct 10, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > ....Thousands of investigators from various agencies? So far, we have the 9/11 Commission, which has 11 Commissioners, as well as perhaps 80 staff members, the most important member being Philip Zelikow, the Executive Director. Here's an interesting bit of information you may not have known about:
> ...



The term "involvement" is way too vague to be useful here. Personally, I like focusing on individuals. Speaking of someone within the FBI who was "involved" in the investigation of 9/11 shortly after the event, have you heard of a woman called Sibel Edmonds?


----------



## Divine Wind (Oct 10, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> The term "involvement" is way too vague to be useful here. Personally, I like focusing on individuals. Speaking of someone within the FBI who was "involved" in the investigation of 9/11 shortly after the event, have you heard of a woman called Sibel Edmonds?



Sorry, sir, but the post was clear.  Do you or do you not believe there were more people "involved" in the investigation of 9/11 than 11 commissioners and 80ish staffers?

Do you really believe there were hundreds of people digging through the rubble of the Pentagon and saying "Where's the fucking airplane?" or do you acknowledge they didn't question it because they were too busy digging out pieces of a 757 and putting scraps of human hamburger into baggies?


----------



## phoenyx (Oct 10, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > The term "involvement" is way too vague to be useful here. Personally, I like focusing on individuals. Speaking of someone within the FBI who was "involved" in the investigation of 9/11 shortly after the event, have you heard of a woman called Sibel Edmonds?
> ...



Sure, the post was clear, in so far as it went. My point is that it was too vague to have a meaningful discussion.



Divine.Wind said:


> Do you or do you not believe there were more people "involved" in the investigation of 9/11 than 11 commissioners and 80ish staffers?



Ofcourse. I think you've lost track of the context of my original remark. I'll bold the relevant part:
"The only official investigation that I'm aware of *to even attempt to cover all of what happened on 9/11* was the 9/11 Commission.* "*



Divine.Wind said:


> Do you really believe there were hundreds of people digging through the rubble of the Pentagon and saying "Where's the fucking airplane?"



Can you cite a source that states that hundreds of people were digging through the rubble of the Pentagon? As to the evidence that a large aircraft didn't crash into the Pentagon, there's a lot of it. I've gone over it before, in the Pentagon Flyover thread, which I'm currently taking a break from.


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## Divine Wind (Oct 10, 2016)

LA RAM FAN said:


> before last post i see two other paid shills trolled here as well as you.sounds like agent sayit referred you all here to fart and troll in this thread.


Paid shills?  "Agent SAYIT"?

Do you sleep with aluminum foil over your head?  In a pyramid tent?  Something other than the usual?  Just curious.


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## Divine Wind (Oct 10, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> ...Ofcourse. I think you've lost track of the context of my original remark. I'll bold the relevant part:
> "The only official investigation that I'm aware of *to even attempt to cover all of what happened on 9/11* was the 9/11 Commission.* "*
> 
> 
> ...


The fact you know very little about accident investigation and the agencies involved is revealing.  No, sir, I won't ever be able to convince you are wrong.  That's not my intention as stated several times previously.


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## phoenyx (Oct 11, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > Divine.Wind said:
> ...



What do you think I missed?



Divine.Wind said:


> No, sir, I won't ever be able to convince you are wrong.  That's not my intention as stated several times previously.



What -is- your intention, exactly?


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## phoenyx (Oct 11, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> LA RAM FAN said:
> 
> 
> > before last post i see two other paid shills trolled here as well as you.sounds like agent sayit referred you all here to fart and troll in this thread.
> ...



As you probably know, I don't subscribe to LRF's notion that anyone who believes in the official story and continues to participate in this thread must be a "paid shill" and have brought it up with LRF. He continues with this notion, however, so I've given up trying to persuade him otherwise. I put his vocal belief on this in the same category as all the OCTers who hurl base insults at those who doubt or disagree with the official story. It's all a waste of time that distracts from actually discussing the evidence of what happened on 9/11.


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## SAYIT (Oct 12, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> Divine.Wind said:
> 
> 
> > The fact you know very little about accident investigation and the agencies involved is revealing.
> ...



Specifically? The BOAT.

You already admitted that you know little about the outside agencies who contributed to the NIST findings or even of their part in the investigation yet you readily embrace any drivel from the thoroughly trashed CIT. 

Your posts reek of your ignorance and your tunnel-vision POV.



phoenyx said:


> Divine.Wind said:
> 
> 
> > No, sir, I won't ever be able to convince you are wrong.  That's not my intention as stated several times previously.
> ...



The long unanswered question is what is yours? Your theories and "facts" have been floated here for 15 years - you provide nothing new - and refuted by people (including many, many prominent "Truthers") smarter and more knowledgeable than you and I combined. At some point - and I realize how difficult it can be to renounce or at least abandon one's belief system - a rational adult must take a hard look at the holes in it and reconsider one's POV. You don't seem to have the capacity.


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## Dalia (Oct 19, 2016)

Hello, thank you Phoenix for this thread....i saw before a documentary about the twin towers and the architect did say why the twin did not resist the impact of the plane.
Just because they were not built in fonction of a the terrorists attack, may be the matériel was not of great quality ? and we know that those beautiful twin towers cost a lot.
But sometime they build and they want to economise on the matérials they uses...that could be the reason that they collapes ?


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## phoenyx (Oct 19, 2016)

SAYIT said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > Divine.Wind said:
> ...



Not only is that not specific, that's not even anything other than a metaphor -.-



SAYIT said:


> You already admitted that you know little about the outside agencies who contributed to the NIST findings



Look, I don't need to know exactly who contributed to the NIST "findings" to know that the findings were flawed. Numerous web sites/organizations have pointed out those flaws. Here's a sampling:
Fraud Exposed in NIST WTC 7 Reports - Part 1

Why the NIST WTC Report on the Towers is False

http://www.globalresearch.ca/why-are-nists-911-wtc-reports-false-and-unscientific/5399091

9-11 Research: The NIST Investigation



SAYIT said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > Divine.Wind said:
> ...



I want people to know what really happened on 9/11. Now are you going to answer the question or are you going to dodge it again?


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## phoenyx (Oct 19, 2016)

Dalia said:


> Hello, thank you Phoenix for this thread....i saw before a documentary about the twin towers and the architect did say why the twin did not resist the impact of the plane.
> Just because they were not built in fonction of a the terrorists attack, may be the matériel was not of great quality ? and we know that those beautiful twin towers cost a lot.
> But sometime they build and they want to economise on the matérials they uses...that could be the reason that they collapes ?



For a long time, many Architects and Engineers have determined that the official version of events concerning the collapse of the Twin Towers and Building 7 couldn't be the truth. They've written a long, detailed article as to why over 2,300 architects and engineers are demanding a new investigation, which can be seen here:
#2 of 6: NIST's WTC 7 Reports: Filled with Fantasy, Fiction, and Fraud


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## Divine Wind (Oct 19, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> Not only is that not specific, that's not even anything other than a metaphor -.-


Wrong again, it was all humor.



phoenyx said:


> I want people to know what really happened on 9/11.


People do know.  What makes you think you know something millions of others do not?

If these conspiracy theories were true, don't you realize you wouldn't even be posting?  Your dead lifeless body would be found hanging in a closet due to an apparent erotic-asphyxian accidental suicide or wrapped around a tree in a tragic DUI accident.


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## phoenyx (Oct 19, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > Not only is that not specific, that's not even anything other than a metaphor -.-
> ...



I never said it wasn't humor, I said it wasn't specific.



Divine.Wind said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > I want people to know what really happened on 9/11.
> ...



Some people know some things, sure. There's a lot to know, however, and I also believe that a lot of people are misinformed on the facts, as well as the most plausible theories for what happened on that day.



Divine.Wind said:


> What makes you think you know something millions of others do not?



Here you go again, talking about vague generalities. How about tackling something real, like the points made in an article from Architects and Engineers like the following one:
#2 of 6: NIST's WTC 7 Reports: Filled with Fantasy, Fiction, and Fraud



Divine.Wind said:


> If these conspiracy theories were true, don't you realize you wouldn't even be posting? Your dead lifeless body would be found hanging in a closet due to an apparent erotic-asphyxian accidental suicide or wrapped around a tree in a tragic DUI accident.



You want to believe that, go right ahead. Me, I think those behind 9/11 only focus on those who are seriously messing with the official story line. There's certainly a list of people whose testimony contradicted the official story's version of events who have died after 9/11:

Or if you prefer a document instead of a video:
Mysterious 9/11 Witness Deaths


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## Divine Wind (Oct 19, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> I never said it wasn't humor, I said it wasn't specific...


It was specific enough for me. 

I'm sure you believe your conspiracy theories.


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## phoenyx (Oct 19, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> phoenyx said:
> 
> 
> > I never said it wasn't humor, I said it wasn't specific...
> ...



Well then, I guess that's that eh ?



Divine.Wind said:


> I'm sure you believe your conspiracy theories.



Just as I'm sure you believe in yours.


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## Divine Wind (Oct 19, 2016)

phoenyx said:


> Divine.Wind said:
> 
> 
> > phoenyx said:
> ...


Correct. 

Sorry, I don't believe in conspiracy theories.  I simply find conspiracy theorists interesting from a psychological point of view.


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## phoenyx (Oct 19, 2016)

Divine.Wind said:


> Sorry, I don't believe in conspiracy theories.



What's ironic is how so many people have lost touch with the definition of what a conspiracy is. Google defines the word thusly:
"a secret plan by a group to do something unlawful or harmful", as well as "the action of plotting or conspiring". Based on this definition, 9/11 was a conspiracy regardless of whether Al Qaeda was behind it, or whether others were behind it. This is why those who disbelieve the official story frequently call those who -do- believe the official story OCTers, or Official Conspiracy Theorists. Corbett did an excellent 5 minute video on those who believe the official conspiracy theory, you might consider taking a look at it sometime...


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