# Boys..... & the Rainbow Party



## Joz (Jun 12, 2005)

BTW,


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## krisy (Jun 12, 2005)

I agree,Joz. Girls that mess around a lot are sluts,boys that do are heroes. It's just that ol double standard. Some family members had to talk with their son about oral sex in bathrooms at school. Apparently,that is an epidemic too. I was glad they made it clear he is not to be a part of that ,as well as discussing other aspects of the consequneces sex can bring these days.


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## dmp (Jun 12, 2005)

I'm not saying it's right - but the thoughts of my daughter dating cause my blood to boil...the thought of my son scoring with the hottest girl in school makes me proud, in a way.

Yeah.. 

no idea.


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## archangel (Jun 12, 2005)

I agree...I really feel sorry for parents and kids of today...when I was in High School back in the day (early 60's)...well guys...myself included would always try...the difference being that when a girl said no...we took it as NO!...some guys would brag that they did it...however the truth be known...I would honestly say maybe one out of a hundred actually got past 2nd base! I was very happy and content to just make out...all clothes intack...."Those were the days!" sigh


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## rtwngAvngr (Jun 12, 2005)

I have a question.  Who criticizes women MORE for looking and acting slutty?  Men or  other women.


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## archangel (Jun 12, 2005)

rtwngAvngr said:
			
		

> I have a question.  Who criticizes women MORE for looking and acting slutty?  Men or  other women.





In the short term...probably women...but in the long term...well most guys...  if they were honest...would admit they would prefer to marry a virgin...or at least one with less experience..."it's a fact jack" a lesson could be learned by all with this comment!


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## rtwngAvngr (Jun 12, 2005)

Joz said:
			
		

> Men like to look I don't care how old they get.  But men who are serious about their young lady prefers she save the good stuff for him and not display it.  Unless he's chosen her as his _trophy_.
> 
> Women understand WHY the girl is doing it.  And yes we're critical.  Either out of sorrow or jealousy.



Seems like a thorough answer to me!


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## USViking (Jun 12, 2005)

Any double standard which still exists is a mere fraction of what it was throughout history until about 30 years ago.

Unfortunately, this trend has been accompanied by massive habitual sexual irresponsibility, which has led to a catastrophic explosion in abortion and single-parent households. We've had decades to improve our behavior, and since it hasn't happened yet, I do not entertain much hope that it will ever happen.


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## rtwngAvngr (Jun 12, 2005)

Joz said:
			
		

> And just because a woman LOOKS slutty doesn't mean she IS slutty.
> 
> A woman may do this for attention out of low esteem.  She may get her kicks out of displaying  her goods.....teasing.....knowing you don't stand a snowball's chance in hell to ever get near it.




Or maybe she's hot and knows it, and is confident enough to stand up to the jealous player haters.


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## Shattered (Jun 12, 2005)

Joz said:
			
		

> And just because a woman LOOKS slutty doesn't mean she IS slutty.
> 
> A woman may do this for attention out of low esteem.  She may get her kicks out of displaying  her goods.....teasing.....knowing you don't stand a snowball's chance in hell to ever get near it.



She may also do it because she knows she looks good for her age, and works hard to take care of herself..  

Besides, the fashions today are way cooler than they were 20 years ago.


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## IControlThePast (Jun 12, 2005)

Shattered said:
			
		

> She may also do it because she knows she looks good for her age, and works hard to take care of herself..
> 
> Besides, the fashions today are way cooler than they were 20 years ago.



That's the "low self esteem" part.  I work hard on Calculus, but I don't have to go tell everybody that I know Calculus to feel good about myself.  Do women have to wear slutty clothes because they don't feel wanted wearing their personalities?

I'm not complaining though.  A woman wearing slutty clothes is in most cases a sign of her insecurity, making her an easy target  :tng: .  Some of the stuff, like the Charlotte Simmons book, makes a bunch of adults freak out.  The general reaction from college kids is "you didn't know?"  

Oral sex in the bathroom is way overplayed, there isn't much of that.  Most girls have not sunk to that dirty a level, teachers closely monitor times people go to the bathroom.  Teachers intermittently check the bathroom for smoking, and it is likely for students to report these incidents in the bathroom if they happen.  

Now on the sports bus is a different story.  Back in my highschool, there were two incidents on the sports bus in four years.  The first incident resulted in the girls (who were stats recorders/managers) be kept in the front of the bus.  I don't know what happened on the second, but a teacher caught a girl, probably because she was near the front of the bus, and disciplined her, but didn't tell because he didn't want to embarass her.  Well the story got out of course and he was fired.      

Off school grounds though there is a bit of sex.  Probably 2/3 of people are not virgins when they graduate.


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## Shattered (Jun 12, 2005)

Your first two points are so far off the wall it's unreal.  The ones who are an easy target don't look good in said clothing to begin with - they're just trying to get attention.


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## dilloduck (Jun 12, 2005)

Shattered said:
			
		

> Your first two points are so far off the wall it's unreal.  The ones who are an easy target don't look good in said clothing to begin with - they're just trying to get attention.


 Isn't the whole point of "fashion" to get attention?


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## rtwngAvngr (Jun 12, 2005)

IControlThePast said:
			
		

> A woman wearing slutty clothes is in most cases a sign of her insecurity, making her an easy target  :tng: . .



That's what ugly and jealous girls say too, weird.


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## Shattered (Jun 12, 2005)

dilloduck said:
			
		

> Isn't the whole point of "fashion" to get attention?



Not always.. Sometimes you just "feel good" in whatever you're wearing..  I was more refuting the "point" that everyone that wears such clothes is an easy target.  Insecurity, and easy targets go hand in hand - those are the ones that don't look typically look good in that type of clothing anyway.  That doesn't hold true for everyone.


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## dilloduck (Jun 12, 2005)

Shattered said:
			
		

> Not always.. Sometimes you just "feel good" in whatever you're wearing..  I was more refuting the "point" that everyone that wears such clothes is an easy target.  Insecurity, and easy targets go hand in hand - those are the ones that don't look typically look good in that type of clothing anyway.  That doesn't hold true for everyone.



I would hope that there are people who "feel good" in whatever they are wearing. If one thinks that wearing what's in fashion or having body parts exposed somehow increases your worth, they are shallow.


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## Shattered (Jun 12, 2005)

I see the point's gone straight over the top of your head, too.  So be it.

We're all insecure shallow tramps with no self worth.  I know Bonnie and I have the same taste in clothes - I wonder if she'll agree as well.


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## rtwngAvngr (Jun 12, 2005)

dilloduck said:
			
		

> I would hope that there are people who "feel good" in whatever they are wearing. If one thinks that wearing what's in fashion or having body parts exposed somehow increases your worth, they are shallow.



you're just jealous that you don't look good in a g-string, man!


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## dilloduck (Jun 12, 2005)

Shattered said:
			
		

> I see the point's gone straight over the top of your head, too.  So be it.
> 
> We're all insecure shallow tramps with no self worth.  I know Bonnie and I have the same taste in clothes - I wonder if she'll agree as well.



You assume too much. I understand the point perfectly. Wearing "fashionable" clothes does not make the wearer a slut nor a princess. They are merely accessories that some enjoy and that some could care less about.

Icontrolthepast makes some good points. SOME loose women dress that wear to advertise that they are loose. SOME women just like to give others the impresssion that they are loose. SOME women just wear em because everyone else is.


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## Shattered (Jun 12, 2005)

Then there's the SOME that you conveniently left out - that just wear certain things because they LIKE them, and to hell with what everyone else thinks.


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## rtwngAvngr (Jun 12, 2005)

dilloduck said:
			
		

> You assume too much. I understand the point perfectly. Wearing "fashionable" clothes does not make the wearer a slut nor a princess. They are merely accessories that some enjoy and that some could care less about.
> 
> Icontrolthepast makes some good points. SOME loose women dress that wear to advertise that they are loose. SOME women just like to give others the impresssion that they are loose. SOME women just wear em because everyone else is.



Do you know the difference between a bitch and a slut?  A slut has sex with everyone, a bitch has sex with everyone but you.


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## dilloduck (Jun 12, 2005)

Shattered said:
			
		

> Then there's the SOME that you conveniently left out - that just wear certain things because they LIKE them, and to hell with what everyone else thinks.



I'd be interested to know WHY you like clothes like your Avatar wears or is accesorizing your Avatar just a hobby?

(told ya the point didn't go over my head)


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## IControlThePast (Jun 12, 2005)

rtwngAvngr said:
			
		

> That's what ugly and jealous girls say too, weird.



Yeah, but they're complaining and I'm not.  Those scantily clad girls are just bogeys on a man's "heads up" display .



			
				Shattered said:
			
		

> Then there's the SOME that you conveniently left out - that just wear certain things because they LIKE them, and to hell with what everyone else thinks.



If you can't like non-exposing clothes, then I don't know what to say.  The negative self-image of advertisers has affected you at least on an unconcious level.  

Like Dilloduck said, if exposing your body parts makes you better, then you're shallow, and you will only attract shallow people.  If a rich man wants to get laid he wears Armani, but if he wants a life companion he dresses in affordable clothes, because if he wants a marriage it will only last and be enjoyable if his partner is attracted to his personality.  Men want to have sex with shallow women, not enter a relationship with them.   

Is there a reason that wearing exposing clothing would indicate you're not an easy target?  You could be loose, you could just be trying to look like you're loose which means you need attention, you could do it because everyone else is--peer pressure, or you could be doing it because you have to wear those type of clothes to feel good which means you have a low sense of self-esteem.  All of those things would make you an easy target for men looking to exploit you.


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## Shattered (Jun 12, 2005)

dilloduck said:
			
		

> I'd be interested to know WHY you like clothes like your Avatar wears or is accesorizing your Avatar just a hobby?
> 
> (told ya the point didn't go over my head)



I don't wear everything you see in my avatars - that's mostly a hobby.  I have an extremely professional job - that doesn't lend itself to trampy clothes.  Nor do I dress like that on a constant basis.  However, I see nothing wrong with it.  If you're happy with how you look, no matter what you wear, who cares?

Mostly, it's those that *can't* wear said clothing that have a problem with it..  Oh, and the guys who can't get said girls either.


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## IControlThePast (Jun 12, 2005)

Shattered said:
			
		

> Mostly, it's those that *can't* wear said clothing that have a problem with it..  Oh, and the guys who can't get said girls either.



Look, I don't think me or Dillo is objecting that you wear the clothing.  What you wear is your business and only you can decide it.  Just expect men to treat and use you like all the shallow and loose girls.  You should dress how your personality is.  If you want to find a man who won't judge you by your clothes, a good place to start is to stop looking like someone who wants to be judged by their clothes


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## Said1 (Jun 12, 2005)

IControlThePast said:
			
		

> Look, I don't think me or Dillo is objecting that you wear the clothing.  What you wear is your business and only you can decide it.  Just expect men to treat and use you like all the shallow and loose girls.  You should dress how your personality is.  If you want to find a man who won't judge you by your clothes, a good place to start is to stop looking like someone who wants to be judged by their clothes



Since your pm box is full twerp, I will say "no", that's not it. 

But still, ferme ta bouche!


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## Shattered (Jun 12, 2005)

IControlThePast said:
			
		

> Look, I don't think me or Dillo is objecting that you wear the clothing.  What you wear is your business and only you can decide it.  Just expect men to treat and use you like all the shallow and loose girls.  You should dress how your personality is.  If you want to find a man who won't judge you by your clothes, a good place to start is to stop looking like someone who wants to be judged by their clothes



You're under the mistaken assumption that you know anything whatsoever about my personal life.

Lemme clue you in - you're not even remotely close.  Try the psychobabble on someone more likely to give it the merit you think it deserves.


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## IControlThePast (Jun 12, 2005)

Said1 said:
			
		

> Since your pm box is full twerp, I will say "no", that's not it.
> 
> But still, ferme ta bouche!



I don't understand your Candian speak .

I find it interesting though that many guys don't do the female equivalent and wear high slits in their pants, or their penis size on their sleeve.  I've only seen that once, and that was a man wearing a Trojan Magnum Extra Large Condoms shirt, inside a Church .


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## Shattered (Jun 12, 2005)

Joz said:
			
		

> Next question I think needs to be asked is:
> 
> *What do you consider "slutty',  as far as clothing?*
> 
> ...



The kind of shorts that your ass literally hangs out of combined with little more than tassels attached to a piece of string.

I do not consider the types of clothing in my various avatars to be exceptionally slutty (except maybe the current skirt).


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## Said1 (Jun 12, 2005)

Joz said:
			
		

> I will agree with you that the avatar skirt is not appropriate.  The shirt is fine.
> 
> When I go to these clubs, I am not an particularly active participant.  I do alot of watching.
> There's this one lady who wears jeans & a couple tight shirts, nothing out of the ordinary.  But her _behavior_ makes her outfit, her dancing, everything slutty, because I know what she does.  There are others who have been attractive women dressed rather bland and have offered to go home with the singer.
> ...



I think attitude and personality are more important than appearence, but I do try to blend class with a little skin.


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## USViking (Jun 12, 2005)

Said1 said:
			
		

> I think attitude and personality are more important than appearence, but I do try to blend class with a little skin.



Uh, don't we have a "Photo" forum?


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## Shattered (Jun 12, 2005)

Even dressed as a lady, she was still treated like a slut..(I forgot the guys name..)  There's still the somewhat typical egghead male mentality that only sees what it wants to see.


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## IControlThePast (Jun 12, 2005)

Joz said:
			
		

> I will agree with you that the avatar skirt is not appropriate.  The shirt is fine.
> 
> When I go to these clubs, I am not an particularly active participant.  I do alot of watching.
> There's this one lady who wears jeans & a couple tight shirts, nothing out of the ordinary.  But her _behavior_ makes her outfit, her dancing, everything slutty, because I know what she does.  There are others who have been attractive women dressed rather bland and have offered to go home with the singer.
> ...



It is generally a "you know it when you see it," but really excessive cleavage, extremely high slits, shorts, or skirts, or really excessive displaying of the underwear would probably not be appropriate.  You can wear an outfit of completely black leather lace outfit that isn't too exposing, but wind up appearing slutty because you look like you're a dominatrix.  It is good to get some skin in while still retaining some class.


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## Said1 (Jun 12, 2005)

Joz said:
			
		

> But that's because he found out she'd turned tricks.  Most people don't change.




That's right, he knew she was a hooker. Either way, her mannerisms and dress changed, both are important.


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## Said1 (Jun 12, 2005)

Joz said:
			
		

> So you don't think it was the same woman [inside] ?




Possibly, but she did learn how to conduct herself with class and speak properly.


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## Said1 (Jun 12, 2005)

Joz said:
			
		

> That was because of education.  She hadn't had the opportunity before.




I think the movie was trying to protray her as a "nice" whore in the first place. The reality of prositution is much different.


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## rtwngAvngr (Jun 12, 2005)

IControlThePast said:
			
		

> Just expect men to treat and use you like all the shallow and loose girls.



Dude, this is deplorable.  "The rape victim wanted it."


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## IControlThePast (Jun 12, 2005)

rtwngAvngr said:
			
		

> Dude, this is deplorable.  "The rape victim wanted it."



Never said anything like that.  Willingness to do something despite a possible risk does not mean you want the bad part of the risk to happen.  Most men don't rape loose girls, they just expect sex from them.


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## Shattered (Jun 12, 2005)

IControlThePast said:
			
		

> Never said anything like that.  Willingness to do something despite a possible risk does not mean you want the bad part of the risk to happen.  Most men don't rape loose girls, they just expect sex from them.



...and when they don't get it, although they feel they're entitled to it because they have an image all worked up in their mind?


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## IControlThePast (Jun 12, 2005)

Shattered said:
			
		

> ...and when they don't get it, although they feel they're entitled to it because they have an image all worked up in their mind?



Then their is the slightly higher _risk_ of rape, if the man is completely out of control and at fault.  Of course they don't like having the image worked up and then not get any, but almost any man wouldn't rape you just because of that.  They'd just get really mad at you.  If they did anything like hit or rape you, they would be at fault and it wouldn't mean that you wanted to be hit or raped.


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## Shattered (Jun 12, 2005)

Perhaps if you wouldn't get the preconceived notion you're entitled to something you're not, just because of the way a person is dressed...


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## IControlThePast (Jun 12, 2005)

Shattered said:
			
		

> Perhaps if you wouldn't get the preconceived notion you're entitled to something you're not, just because of the way a person is dressed...



It is an easy social norm for most males to follow, and one where they are less likely to be rejected, and it holds true a lot of the time.  It's like a mating call for animals, where the female will display her feathers showing she's ready for mating.  I can't change the behavior of all the men out there.  Most of that notion is just from natural instinct, and I haven't seen much that can conquer that.  All I can do is provide a warning to you.


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## Shattered (Jun 12, 2005)

LMAO!  You're providing me with a warning about something you previously professed to doing yourself?  (That was you that basically said you prey on girls like that because they're an easy target, right?  Or, did I misunderstand?)   Egads - that's rich.

Let me make something perfectly clear to you, since you obviously missed it last time - you're not issuing me any warnings that I need.  You know nothing about me, or my personal life, or how I display myself in public, or private.  Your assumptions are completely off the wall, and incorrect.

My OPINION is that people are entitled to wear what they like, and shouldn't be made to feel like hell for it by the likes of you, or anyone else.  That does not mean I go traipsing around town in little more than a feather boa.


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## IControlThePast (Jun 12, 2005)

Shattered said:
			
		

> LMAO!  You're providing me with a warning about something you previously professed to doing yourself?  (That was you that basically said you prey on girls like that because they're an easy target, right?  Or, did I misunderstand?)   Egads - that's rich.
> 
> Let me make something perfectly clear to you, since you obviously missed it last time - you're not issuing me any warnings that I need.  You know nothing about me, or my personal life, or how I display myself in public, or private.  Your assumptions are completely off the wall, and incorrect.
> 
> My OPINION is that people are entitled to wear what they like, and shouldn't be made to feel like hell for it by the likes of you, or anyone else.  That does not mean I go traipsing around town in little more than a feather boa.



It's a norm most males use for judging whether they will be rejected.  It's kinda like an unspoken rule.  Don't act like you want some if you don't.

That's why I precluded everything with a "if you dress in a slutty manner" sort of statement.  If you wear those clothes, men will expect you to be following the norm.  That doesn't say anything about your personal life, and requires no knowledge of it to make that statement.  It's just a syllogism, structured programming theorem.


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## Shattered (Jun 12, 2005)

Perhaps most males would do well to set their sights (and standards) a little higher..  You're making them sound like a bunch of bumbling oafs with no mental capacity for anything normal.

I don't think I even know any males that are anything close to what you're describing.


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## Said1 (Jun 12, 2005)

IControlThePast said:
			
		

> It's a norm most males use for judging whether they will be rejected.  It's kinda like an unspoken rule.  Don't act like you want some if you don't.
> 
> That's why I precluded everything with a "if you dress in a slutty manner" sort of statement.  If you wear those clothes, men will expect you to be following the norm.  That doesn't say anything about your personal life, and requires no knowledge of it to make that statement.  It's just a syllogism, structured programming theorem.



There is some truth in what you are saying, although people in general could stand to be less judgemental. You form an opinion of someone in something like 5 seconds, this is usually not based on much, aside from appearence and mannerisms. I think most of us are guilty of itl.


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## IControlThePast (Jun 12, 2005)

Shattered said:
			
		

> Perhaps most males would do well to set their sights (and standards) a little higher..  You're making them sound like a bunch of bumbling oafs with no mental capacity for anything normal.
> 
> I don't think I even know any males that are anything close to what you're describing.



Men don't like being rejected, and I would imagine that goes for women too.  Men generally are the ones that have to ask someone out or to dance, etc, so they want to make sure that they won't be rejected when they ask.  Many guys are not out for a relationship, especially if they're still in college.  They're just out for a one night stand or friends with benefits or just benefits.    Trying to determine whether a girl will say yes is based on what Said says and also a concious observation of mannerisms and dress.    



			
				Said1 said:
			
		

> There is some truth in what you are saying, although people in general could stand to be less judgemental. You form an opinion of someone in something like 5 seconds, this is usually not based on much, aside from appearence and mannerisms. I think most of us are guilty of itl.



Yes, most of us are.


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## Avatar4321 (Jun 13, 2005)

dilloduck said:
			
		

> I'd be interested to know WHY you like clothes like your Avatar wears or is accesorizing your Avatar just a hobby?
> 
> (told ya the point didn't go over my head)



I didnt realize i belonged to her or had poor taste in clothes...oh wait nevermind.


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## dilloduck (Jun 13, 2005)

Shattered said:
			
		

> LMAO!  You're providing me with a warning about something you previously professed to doing yourself?  (That was you that basically said you prey on girls like that because they're an easy target, right?  Or, did I misunderstand?)   Egads - that's rich.
> 
> Let me make something perfectly clear to you, since you obviously missed it last time - you're not issuing me any warnings that I need.  You know nothing about me, or my personal life, or how I display myself in public, or private.  Your assumptions are completely off the wall, and incorrect.
> 
> My OPINION is that people are entitled to wear what they like, and shouldn't be made to feel like hell for it by the likes of you, or anyone else.  That does not mean I go traipsing around town in little more than a feather boa.



Whores dress the way they do to attract customers. Of course you can wear whatever you like however others are ALSO entitled to make thier own opinions about your appearance. There is no doubt that if you dress like a whore, odds are that you are more likely to be treated as such. Your "I can do whatever I want" motto has consequences whether you feel them to be warranted or not. Even woman can tell when one has dressed in a manner to attract sexual attention. One cannot realistically expect do "do thier own thing" without being assessed by others. Are you gonna try to tell us that you see how someone is dressed but have no impression about them whatsoever?


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## Shattered (Jun 13, 2005)

Tell me, Dillo... What exactly does someone have to wear to be considered a whore in your opinion?  You've thrown that word around quite a bit now, but have yet to have define it.


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## rtwngAvngr (Jun 13, 2005)

IControlThePast said:
			
		

> Never said anything like that.  Willingness to do something despite a possible risk does not mean you want the bad part of the risk to happen.  Most men don't rape loose girls, they just expect sex from them.



It's the same line of reasoning.


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## dilloduck (Jun 13, 2005)

Shattered said:
			
		

> Tell me, Dillo... What exactly does someone have to wear to be considered a whore in your opinion?  You've thrown that word around quite a bit now, but have yet to have define it.


 Go check your local red light district---the cops and the johns can pick em out a mile away.


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## Shattered (Jun 13, 2005)

dilloduck said:
			
		

> Go check your local red light district---the cops and the johns can pick em out a mile away.



Sorry, but I live in a small, religious town.  I don't have a 'red light' district.

Care to define the word you're throwing around?  You obviously have someone/something worked up in your mind already as a whore.. You should be a bit more specific.


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## dilloduck (Jun 13, 2005)

Shattered said:
			
		

> Sorry, but I live in a small, religious town.  I don't have a 'red light' district.
> 
> Care to define the word you're throwing around?  You obviously have someone/something worked up in your mind already as a whore.. You should be a bit more specific.



If you have never seen one then you are hardly the person to discuss the issue with.


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## Shattered (Jun 13, 2005)

Maybe I haven't (other than TV).  But from the way you're describing them, anyone that wears anything considered sexy, or slightly revealing, is dressed like a whore, and should expect to be treated as such.


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## dilloduck (Jun 13, 2005)

Shattered said:
			
		

> Maybe I haven't (other than TV).  But from the way you're describing them, anyone that wears anything considered sexy, or slightly revealing, is dressed like a whore, and should expect to be treated as such.



Don't get into debates when you don't even know what the hell you're talking about. Makes you look silly.


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## Shattered (Jun 13, 2005)

dilloduck said:
			
		

> Don't get into debates when you don't even know what the hell you're talking about. Makes you look silly.



ME look silly?  I'm beginning to think you have a serious problem with women.  I asked you for your specific definition of a whore, since you are the first, and only person to actually throw the word onto the table.

Are you going to put up, or shut up?


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## dilloduck (Jun 13, 2005)

Shattered said:
			
		

> ME look silly?  I'm beginning to think you have a serious problem with women.  I asked you for your specific definition of a whore, since you are the first, and only person to actually throw the word onto the table.
> 
> Are you going to put up, or shut up?



I'm certainly not going to argue about dressing like a whore with someone who has only seen one on TV  LOL


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## Shattered (Jun 13, 2005)

What's the matter?  Did the real life ones you've seen turn you down as well?

Either you have nothing to go on, or you managed to stick your foot in your mouth, and haven't figured out how to spit it back out yet.

You've got nothing, Dillo.


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## dilloduck (Jun 13, 2005)

Shattered said:
			
		

> What's the matter?  Did the real life ones you've seen turn you down as well?
> 
> Either you have nothing to go on, or you managed to stick your foot in your mouth, and haven't figured out how to spit it back out yet.
> 
> You've got nothing, Dillo.


 LMAO--now I have problems with women------for someone who hates to be criticized you sure can fling the shit around Dr. Shattered. Please think about what the hell you say before you say it


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## IControlThePast (Jun 13, 2005)

rtwngAvngr said:
			
		

> It's the same line of reasoning.



I never mentioned anything she wants from dressing like that.  I never said she wanted men to expect sex from her, or to rape her.  The former is a norm, what will normally happen, nothing about what she wants.  In fact, the whole point is  this is a warning that she doesn't want, from my experience, the consequences that come with that behavior.  The latter one is not a norm or what she wants either.


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## Shattered (Jun 13, 2005)

dilloduck said:
			
		

> LMAO--now I have problems with women------for someone who hates to be criticized you sure can fling the shit around Dr. Shattered. Please think about what the hell you say before you say it



Perhaps you should take your own advice.  You've thrown the word 'whore' around - I've asked you (3-4 times now) to define it as you see it, in your own words.  Why is this so hard for you?  Is everyone that wears anything even remotely sexy a whore?  What's too sexy by your standards?  What causes a woman to go from cute to whore status?  Do all whores deserve what they get?


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## dilloduck (Jun 13, 2005)

Shattered said:
			
		

> Perhaps you should take your own advice.  You've thrown the word 'whore' around - I've asked you (3-4 times now) to define it as you see it, in your own words.  Why is this so hard for you?  Is everyone that wears anything even remotely sexy a whore?  What's too sexy by your standards?  What causes a woman to go from cute to whore status?  Do all whores deserve what they get?


educate yourself and get back to me---someone who wants to debate whores and hasn't even seen one is like me telling a helicopter pilot how to fly.


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## Shattered (Jun 13, 2005)

Being as old as I am, I have a pretty good idea on what *I* consider a whore to dress like.

I'm asking you what YOU consider to be a whore since YOU dropped the term on the table.  Is that REALLY such a complicated question for a mind supposedly so bright as yours?

I've never stuck my finger in a light socket, but that doesn't mean I can't discuss the extreme idiocies of it.

I stand by my original opinion in that you're overly angry, have a serious problem with women, and haven't come to grips with it yet - that is based on your reaction to this thread.


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## dilloduck (Jun 13, 2005)

Shattered said:
			
		

> Being as old as I am, I have a pretty good idea on what *I* consider a whore to dress like.
> 
> I'm asking you what YOU consider to be a whore since YOU dropped the term on the table.  Is that REALLY such a complicated question for a mind supposedly so bright as yours?
> 
> ...



WOW--you have an image of what a whore looks like in your mind but have never seen one. THAT sure gives you a lot of credibilty. The topic of hookers was brought up by others ( Julia Roberts )--not me. 
Actually I HAVE stuck my finger in a light socket but was smart enough to cut the juice before I did it.
Amazing amount of diagnosing going on there about me----what's your favorite line again? --Oh ya--"YOU DON"T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT MY PERSONAL LIFE". You're an uneducated hypocrite can't admit to it. Stick to posting smilies and adjusting the clothes on your Avatar. ( A slut is a whore who does it for free)


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## Shattered (Jun 13, 2005)

While we're at it..what I find even funnier, is in all your experience with whore's, and during all the chest thumping from you about refusal to discuss something with someone so uneducated as myself, you could have just dropped your definition on the table, and been done with it.  Instead, you come back, post more gibberish, stomp your feet, refuse to discuss it, but yet keep replying.

Feeling attention hungry today?  

Oh, and since you continually bring up my avatars (you've brought them into almost every discussion we've had, regardless of the actual topic), what is it about them that makes you so angry, Dillo?


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## dilloduck (Jun 13, 2005)

Shattered said:
			
		

> While we're at it..what I find even funnier, is in all your experience with whore's, and during all the chest thumping from you about refusal to discuss something with someone so uneducated as myself, you could have just dropped your definition on the table, and been done with it.  Instead, you come back, post more gibberish, stomp your feet, refuse to discuss it, but yet keep replying.
> 
> Feeling attention hungry today?
> 
> Oh, and since you continually bring up my avatars (you've brought them into almost every discussion we've had, regardless of the actual topic), what is it about them that makes you so angry, Dillo?


 
Actually I bored and waiting for my son but I am regretting wasting my time talking to you. Your Avatar?--it reminds me of a 5 year old playing with Barbie but have yourself a time.
Get in your last insults so you can feel good about yourself and if you wish to continue this silly shit you can IM me on MSN. You know--the one where you sig is a very ladylike " aw fuck it" :rotflmao: 
Bye Sweetie.


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## Shattered (Jun 13, 2005)

dilloduck said:
			
		

> Actually I bored and waiting for my son but I am regretting wasting my time talking to you. Your Avatar?--it reminds me of a 5 year old playing with Barbie but have yourself a time.
> Get in your last insults so you can feel good about yourself and if you wish to continue this silly shit you can IM me on MSN. You know--the one where you sig is a very ladylike " aw fuck it" :rotflmao:
> Bye Sweetie.



"Aw fuck it" is the last thing you've seen, because that's how long you've been blocked.  Boy do you get irritated when called on the carpet about your own childish behavior..  You sure you're the father, and not the other way around?

You started it, you can't finish it.  Oh well.  Ta-ta..  (Now don't ruin your grand exit by coming back yet again to throw more insults at cartoon dolls, and refuse to define a word you're quick to throw out, but don't have the backbone to stand behind.)


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## 5stringJeff (Jun 13, 2005)

Well, Joz, to answer your questions:

1. I think it's terrible that guys are encouraged to get laid, score, etc., but if a girl does the same thing, she's labeled a slut, whore, etc.  The culture trend that I have observed over the last 20-30 years has been to let women act promiscuously (sp?) without fear of steroetype - in other words to treat them like we've been treating men all along.  IMO, we ought to hold men to a higher standard of sexual purity.

And to go along with Darin's repsonse, I am going to make sure my duaghter understands how guy's brains are wired: she shoud assume that every guy is always looking to get as far as he can with her, and she needs to make sure that he never gets anywhere (OK, maybe kissing, but even THAT pisses me off).

2. What is "slutty" clothing?  I think it's been mentioned already, but almost anything can make a woman look slutty, depending on how they wear it.  But some things that pretty much always look that way:
- lots of cleavage showing - especially down the middle.
- those really short, somewhat flowing skirts that stop about two inches below the crotch.
- shorts that show of the bottom of your buttcheeks
- tight-fitting tops


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## GotZoom (Jun 13, 2005)

I haven't logged on this weekend but from reading the last couple of pages, looks like I've missesd a few things. 

Let me say first that I am a male...and I understand the meaning of the word "no."

The few posts about women expecting it by the way they dress is absurd.  I would find it very hard to believe that as a woman is getting dressed, she stands in front of the mirror and says, "Yeah....I look hot...I know I'll get raped tonight wearing this...I can't wait."

Please.

There are women out there who get their jollies by wearing very provocative clothing.  The reasons they do this I'm sure varies.  Some might be poor self-esteem..wanting attention.  Some might be advertising because they want to get laid (but not raped).  Others might feel good about the recent weight loss and want to flaunt it a little.  Some might just like what they are wearing, thinks it looks sexy, but doesn't have the luxury of a friend who might whisper in her ear, "Umm..I know you like that but...it kind of makes you look cheap.  Try this top instead...keep the short skirt...it will be fine."

And there are guys out there who think that any woman who wears a short skirt, or a somewhat (or completely) see through shirt obviously wants sex - and possibly deserves what she gets, agreeable or not.

Rape is control - it isn't sexual.  I thought everyone knew that.

There are some guys out there who has no desire in having sex with someone who doesn't want it.  If a woman says no, it is no, not maybe.  There are some of us who prefer to know the woman before sleeping with her...some of us would like to have a conversation before, during and after sleeping with her.  

Some of us don't want to just get dressed and walk out of the room after.


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## archangel (Jun 13, 2005)

Well being a old fart from the old school all I can say is leave just a little to the imagination...cute is much sexier than all out OMG I see it all! Let's see... a short skirt mid thigh...nice top not too revealing but gives ya some idea of what the goods may look like...or a really soft and silky summer dress...bare legs so their is no cover up of condition...I better quit before I get myself in more trouble than I can handle....lol :funnyface


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## GotZoom (Jun 13, 2005)

I bet if parents taught their sons and daughters about the word "respect" - respect themselves, respect others, respect life, respect their body, other people should respect your wishes, etc, a lot of these problems (if you loved me you would....  Well, if you respected me you wouldn't), wouldn't come up as much.


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## archangel (Jun 13, 2005)

At this age hormons kick in and natural drive to mate becomes a obsession....what parents need to do is teach the youngn's to be responsible and to abstain from their natural desires until they are old enough to  accept responsibility for their actions....

Girls are more mature during their teen years and must be the responsible party to say "hell no"...the old "If ya love me" or "I am going to be hurting if ya don't" should be met with"Oh well thats your problem"!

Thats what I taught my girls and it works quite well...no guarantee mind ya...but that is about all one can do as a parent!

Also in this day and age we are bombarded with TV,Movies etc all expressing "If it feels good do it" Tell your kids there are many other ways to feel good besides dropping your pants and getting it on! We need to provide safe environments and entertainment centers to distract from the natural urges at this critical age! Kids need to be kids and experience other outlets before committing to consummation of adult realtionships....

Just one Dad and Grandads opinion....


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## 5stringJeff (Jun 13, 2005)

Joz said:
			
		

> Is there?  Really?  We're talking about whores???? HOW MANY men does a woman have to sleep with to become a whore? Five, ten. twenty-five?  Can she have sex with no strings attached like a man?  Hit it & run??  *I stand by the statement that women think,  to get along in a man's world you must become like a man.*  They just don't understand  I tho't this when I was a young girl.  Never going to happen.



I agree with that bolded statement.  That's what I was talking about.  Maybe I didn't word it right.  And IMO, a woman isn't a whore unless she's getting paid for getting laid.

As far as numbers, I'm not going to try and pull a number out of my butt.  I'd rather focus my efforts on making sure that my daughter stays out of that lifestyle.



> So, you're going to tell your daughter that men only want sex?  That a boy of 17 can think of nothing but putting his weenie someplace soft?  That's fine.  But HOW will  you get her to NOT give in to his crooning?   "If you really love me......."  "If I don't do this my gonads will swell & I'll be in so much pain......"
> 
> There's a much larger responsibility that you hold.  And that is to teach your daughter that she is of worth.  That her existence is important.  That she is equal to any man just by being.  That she is special in her own right.  That a man that truly loves her will want to share this with her, but as her partner, not as a conquerer.  If she understands her worth, she will not give in to such childish prodding.  Not out of fear but because she understands.



I didn't say that the _only_ thing I was going to teach her is that guys want sex.  But it's certainly going to be one of the things I teach her.  I totally agree with everything you posted - I just want to make sure she understands why boys do the things they do, so she's prepared.


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## no1tovote4 (Jun 13, 2005)

I am not looking forward to the time when I have to worry about this.


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## no1tovote4 (Jun 13, 2005)

Joz said:
			
		

> So If I sleep with 100 guys, I'm not a whore, unless I've accepted _money_??  You're describing a prostitute.  There's a difference.



No you would be a slut, not a whore.  Whore is a "crude" word for prostitute (as if you could dress up such a concept).



> I did not mean to imply that you were going to warp your daughter's mind.  I think it's wise that you talk to your daughter.  But she may not understand.  Heck, I have problems with why you guys doing some of the things you do!  And you can't tell me, as well as you know your wife, you don't always understand her thinking/behavior.
> I still stand by the fact that IF your daughter is taught, _by her father_ that she is important, ( & not to the point of being a prima donna) she WILL behave like a lady.



I can only hope.


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## archangel (Jun 13, 2005)

Joz said:
			
		

> So If I sleep with 100 guys, I'm not a whore, unless I've accepted _money_??  You're describing a prostitute.  There's a difference.
> 
> 
> You slept with 100 guys....? Just kidding I know you were just trying to make a point....Right?


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## rtwngAvngr (Jun 13, 2005)

IControlThePast said:
			
		

> I never mentioned anything she wants from dressing like that.  I never said she wanted men to expect sex from her, or to rape her.  The former is a norm, what will normally happen, nothing about what she wants.  In fact, the whole point is  this is a warning that she doesn't want, from my experience, the consequences that come with that behavior.  The latter one is not a norm or what she wants either.



The reasoning is not that she wanted it, I misspoke. the reasoning is, she deserved it, and should have expected it.


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## no1tovote4 (Jun 13, 2005)

Joz said:
			
		

> I'm not trying to start trouble.  I just want to make sure our definitions are the same.  Webster says:
> 
> Prostitutes:  someone who engages in sex for money
> Slut: Immoral woman
> ...




Fair 'nuff.  I have just always thought of it that way.  (Whore=Prostitute)


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## Said1 (Jun 13, 2005)

I think the definition of a whore is someone who is willing to do just about anything to get whatever they can from a man. I don't want to argue semantics here, this is just my opinion.


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## archangel (Jun 13, 2005)

Said1 said:
			
		

> I think the definition of a whore is someone who is willing to do just about anything to get whatever they can from a man. I don't want to argue semantics here, this is just my opinion.




It goes both ways....I knew I liked Said1...!


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## 5stringJeff (Jun 13, 2005)

Joz said:
			
		

> I did not mean to imply that you were going to warp your daughter's mind.  I think it's wise that you talk to your daughter.  But she may not understand.  Heck, I have problems with why you guys doing some of the things you do!  And you can't tell me, as well as you know your wife, you don't always understand her thinking/behavior.
> I still stand by the fact that IF your daughter is taught, _by her father_ that she is important, ( & not to the point of being a prima donna) she WILL behave like a lady.



When my daughter gets to be dating age, I will make sure she is equipped with enough information to make wise decisions.  That includes info on how guys operate, info on what can happen if you fool around (bad reputation, STDs, pregnancy), info on what God wants from us, and why, etc. etc.  And I am already teaching my daughter that she is important to me, and important to others.  That's a lesson that doesn't have to wait.


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## Said1 (Jun 13, 2005)

archangel said:
			
		

> It goes both ways....I knew I liked Said1...!




Sure it goes both ways, men can be whores too.


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## archangel (Jun 13, 2005)

Said1 said:
			
		

> Sure it goes both ways, men can be whores too.




Men are born whores...a good woman is the only redemption.... :tng:


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## IControlThePast (Jun 13, 2005)

rtwngAvngr said:
			
		

> The reasoning is not that she wanted it, I misspoke. the reasoning is, she deserved it, and should have expected it.



Nobody ever deserves it, even if they think it's what they want, but if you dress like a slut expect to be treated like one.  That, however, has nothing to do with raping.


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## Shattered (Jun 13, 2005)

IControlThePast said:
			
		

> Nobody ever deserves it, even if they think it's what they want, but if you dress like a slut expect to be treated like one.  That, however, has nothing to do with raping.



Why can't you just treat people with the common courtesy you expect to be treated with, regardless of what clothing is being worn?  Why sit there and come up with excuses for your own churlish behavior?


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## GotZoom (Jun 13, 2005)

IControlThePast said:
			
		

> Nobody ever deserves it, even if they think it's what they want, but if you dress like a slut expect to be treated like one.  That, however, has nothing to do with raping.




And how would that be?

Exactly what do you to to "treat someone" like a slut?


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## 5stringJeff (Jun 13, 2005)

I think ICTP's point is somewhat valid, though I too would be interested to know how one treats a 'slut.'  But if a woman dresses in a provocative fashion, she should expect that guys are going to view her as someone who is more likely to have sex with guys in general (and possibly him, in particular).


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## IControlThePast (Jun 13, 2005)

Shattered said:
			
		

> Why can't you just treat people with the common courtesy you expect to be treated with, regardless of what clothing is being worn?  Why sit there and come up with excuses for your own churlish behavior?



If I was dressed like a slut, I would expect to be treated like one.  If I'm walking along the side of the road in only overalls with a beer in my hand and a John Deer hat on with a wad of 'baccy, I'd expect people to assume I was a redneck.  I can't change the behavior of all the men out there, you know that.  



			
				GotZoom said:
			
		

> And how would that be?
> 
> Exactly what do you to to "treat someone" like a slut?



I've already defined what that was earlier.  Ass hanging out, extremely short skirt or shorts, a very high slit, excessive displaying of the underwear, excessive cleavage.  It's like porn, you know it when you see it.  You can wear a black leather and lace dress that isn't too exposing but look exactly like a dominatrix.  

People treated like a slut means others will assume you fit under that label and try for one nighters, or short relationships with multiple partners, etc, or pass you over if they're looking for a relationship.


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## GotZoom (Jun 13, 2005)

gop_jeff said:
			
		

> I think ICTP's point is somewhat valid, though I too would be interested to know how one treats a 'slut.'  But if a woman dresses in a provocative fashion, she should expect that guys are going to view her as someone who is more likely to have sex with guys in general (and possibly him, in particular).



Personally, if I see a women who is dressed provocatively (but not classy) or as some would say, SLUTTY, I would continue on with doing what I am doing. 

If I had to interact with her, I wouldn not automatically have to go into "disrespect mode" and therefore, treat her "like a slut."


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## GotZoom (Jun 13, 2005)

IControlThePast said:
			
		

> If I was dressed like a slut, I would expect to be treated like one.  If I'm walking along the side of the road in only overalls with a beer in my hand and a John Deer hat on with a wad of 'baccy, I'd expect people to assume I was a redneck.  I can't change the behavior of all the men out there, you know that.



And it would be OK with you if people assumed you had sex with animals?



			
				IControlThePast said:
			
		

> I've already defined what that was earlier.  Ass hanging out, extremely short skirt or shorts, a very high slit, excessive displaying of the underwear, excessive cleavage.  It's like porn, you know it when you see it.  You can wear a black leather and lace dress that isn't too exposing but look exactly like a dominatrix.
> 
> People treated like a slut means others will assume you fit under that label and try for one nighters, or short relationships with multiple partners, etc, or pass you over if they're looking for a relationship.



Is it correct for people to base the way they treat people or base the amount of respect one is given strictly by their appearance?


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## 5stringJeff (Jun 13, 2005)

GotZoom said:
			
		

> Personally, if I see a women who is dressed provocatively (but not classy) or as some would say, SLUTTY, I would continue on with doing what I am doing.
> 
> If I had to interact with her, I wouldn not automatically have to go into "disrespect mode" and therefore, treat her accordingly.
> 
> Maybe it's me....maybe I don't know how to treat someone slutty.



All I'm saying is that we all make assumptions about people based on first impressions, and part of that first impression is how people dress.  I'm not saying that a woman _deserves_ to be treated differently based on the way she dresses; I _am_ saying that she probably will be treated differently anyway.


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## Shattered (Jun 13, 2005)

Ok, ICTP, you win..  You continue treating people how you think they 'deserve' to be treated.. I'll continue to treat them like *people* until they act like something different.  Clothing does not make the person.  While they may *look* like a slut/tramp/whore/whatever to you, that doesn't give you any God given "right" to treat them as anything less than a human being, no matter what they look like.


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## IControlThePast (Jun 13, 2005)

GotZoom said:
			
		

> And it would be OK with you if people assumed you had sex with animals?
> 
> 
> 
> Is it correct for people to base the way they treat people or base the amount of respect one is given strictly by their appearance?



Most rednecks don't have sex with animals, unless you think the redneck women are the equivalent of animals.  I grew up in the South, and there was only one guy out of 400k in the area the newspapers cover that was arrested for a buggery charge.  He just happened to be from my hometown of 250 though. 

No it's not correct, but that's what happens.


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## GotZoom (Jun 13, 2005)

IControlThePast said:
			
		

> Most rednecks don't have sex with animals, unless you think the redneck women are the equivalent of animals.  I grew up in the South, and there was only one guy out of 400k in the area the newspapers cover that was arrested for a buggery charge.  He just happened to be from my hometown of 250 though.
> 
> No it's not correct, but that's what happens.



I have heard that some people think all rednecks have sex with animals, have no teeth, get kidnapped by aliens, and journey back and forth to Jerry Springer just for the free hotel room. 

Not true?

Sorry..it was just an assumption.  Based strictly on the way they are dressed of course.


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## IControlThePast (Jun 13, 2005)

GotZoom said:
			
		

> I have heard that some people think all rednecks have sex with animals, have no teeth, get kidnapped by aliens, and journey back and forth to Jerry Springer just for the free hotel room.
> 
> Not true?
> 
> Sorry..it was just an assumption.  Based strictly on the way they are dressed of course.



I can't tell you about sex with animals, but aparently not many are caught.  You can see if they've got no teeth.  They actually try to fend off the aliens with their shotguns.  Obviously most have not gone on the Jerry Springer show, although I know quite a few who have wanted to.  There aren't too many assumptions you can make about rednecks, except that they've done something in one of the categories that could make them a redneck, like entered a tractor pull, be a whiskey/moonshine bootlegger, etc.


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## GotZoom (Jun 13, 2005)

Shattered said:
			
		

> Ok, ICTP, you win..  You continue treating people how you think they 'deserve' to be treated.. I'll continue to treat them like *people* until they act like something different.  Clothing does not make the person.  While they may *look* like a slut/tramp/whore/whatever to you, that doesn't give you any God given "right" to treat them as anything less than a human being, no matter what they look like.



I love this woman.


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## IControlThePast (Jun 13, 2005)

Shattered said:
			
		

> Ok, ICTP, you win..  You continue treating people how you think they 'deserve' to be treated.. I'll continue to treat them like *people* until they act like something different.  Clothing does not make the person.  While they may *look* like a slut/tramp/whore/whatever to you, that doesn't give you any God given "right" to treat them as anything less than a human being, no matter what they look like.



Go introduce yourself to everyone that way, it's them you have a problem with, not me.  Sluts are human beings too.  People don't do what's right.  If they did our world would be free of problems.  Go and tell everyone that and they won't try and make a visual impression of you, although they then might assume that you are personally very defensive.


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## GotZoom (Jun 13, 2005)

IControlThePast said:
			
		

> Go introduce yourself to everyone that way, it's them you have a problem with, not me.  Sluts are human beings too.  People don't do what's right.  If they did our world would be free of problems.  Go and tell everyone that and they won't try and make a visual impression of you, although they then might assume that you are personally very defensive.



How profound.

What did you mean..introduce yourself to everyone that way?  What way?


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## Merlin1047 (Jun 13, 2005)

Shattered said:
			
		

> Ok, ICTP, you win..  You continue treating people how you think they 'deserve' to be treated.. I'll continue to treat them like *people* until they act like something different.  Clothing does not make the person.  While they may *look* like a slut/tramp/whore/whatever to you, that doesn't give you any God given "right" to treat them as anything less than a human being, no matter what they look like.



I was going to leave this topic alone, but I was never long on common sense.  So at the risk of upsetting both you and Joz, I'm going to try to tiptoe through the minefield.

If I post sumthin that's shot thru with bad grammer, bad spelinnk, and dam crude langwige, you would probably assume that either I'm an illiterate halfwit at worst or an extremely poor typist at best.   Either way, your impression of me is based on my public persona.

Likewise, the way people dress and act in public sends a signal about the type of person they are and the type of behavior in which they engage.  Now I'm not saying that's RIGHT, I'm just saying that's a FACT of the human condition.  We form first impressions based on visual assessment and how we process that assessment into our own personal frames of reference.

There are two ways a woman can get my attention.  One way is to give me whiplash when I snap my head around fast enough to get a good look.  Cleavage, short tight skirt, skimpy shorts, teeny bikini all work.  Yes, that may be chauvinistic, but I will not attempt to reverse millenia of male propensities all by myself.  I have neither the will nor the inclination to even make the attempt.  So ladies, if you don't want to see me drool, keep your boobies covered.

The second way a woman gets my attention is to sit down and talk to her.  If we can keep an interesting conversation going, if she is her own person, if she has her own perspectives and opinions, then she becomes far more beautiful to me than the honey parading down the center aisle of the local mall with her shorts riding into the crack of her butt.

Frankly, women who feel the need to put themselves on display tend to make me uncomfortable.  I have no rational explantion for that, so don't even ask.  Perhaps one way I can attempt an explanation is to recount my disappointment with Cher when she went through her phase of nearly exposing herself during her act.  Cher is a beautiful woman and a talented artist.  She didn't need to flash her ass to prove it.  It demeaned her and it diminished her art.


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## 5stringJeff (Jun 13, 2005)

Merlin1047 said:
			
		

> I was going to leave this topic alone, but I was never long on common sense.  So at the risk of upsetting both you and Joz, I'm going to try to tiptoe through the minefield.
> 
> If I post sumthin that's shot thru with bad grammer, bad spelinnk, and dam crude langwige, you would probably assume that either I'm an illiterate halfwit at worst or an extremely poor typist at best.   Either way, your impression of me is based on my public persona.
> 
> ...



Merlin, you have written what I was trying to say all along.


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## Merlin1047 (Jun 13, 2005)

gop_jeff said:
			
		

> Merlin, you have written what I was trying to say all along.


Boy you're quick!  I added a little edit after you quoted.  Hope it manages to convey how I feel about some aspects of women's dress.


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## IControlThePast (Jun 13, 2005)

GotZoom said:
			
		

> How profound.
> 
> What did you mean..introduce yourself to everyone that way?  What way?



She seemed to imply that whores were less than human beings, and people who acted as such deserve to be treated as such.  

With a statement along the lines of "don't make a visual impression of me, judge me by my personality.  It isn't right for you to judge me by my appearance."


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## GotZoom (Jun 13, 2005)

IControlThePast said:
			
		

> She seemed to imply that whores were less than human beings, and people who acted as such deserve to be treated as such.
> 
> With a statement along the lines of "don't make a visual impression of me, judge me by my personality.  It isn't right for you to judge me by my appearance."



Ok...I'm confused.  I didn't read anything in the post you quoted to indicate that she implied that whores were less than human, and that people who acted as such deserved to be treated as such.  

I believe she has been saying you SHOULDN'T people by the way they were dressed.  

Enlighten me please.


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## IControlThePast (Jun 13, 2005)

"I'll continue to treat them like *people* until they act like something different,"
meaning if they don't act like people (we're talking about sluts here, so "them" is sluts, and acting like "something different" would in this context be acting like a slut) she will treat them differently, but that she won't treat them as less than a human unless they prove through actions.  Sluts (by action, not just appearance) don't deserve to be treated as any less or differently than a normal human.


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## manu1959 (Jun 13, 2005)

how do blind people treat women dressed "sluty"?


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## rtwngAvngr (Jun 14, 2005)

IControlThePast said:
			
		

> Sluts (by action, not just appearance) don't deserve to be treated as any less or differently than a normal human.




Yet they should EXPECT poor treatment?  That's what you said before or someone said it.


----------



## dilloduck (Jun 14, 2005)

rtwngAvngr said:
			
		

> Yet they should EXPECT poor treatment?  That's what you said before or someone said it.


 They certainly shouldn't be shocked or offended when it happens. As Merlin pointed out so well, realilty is that assumptions will be made by the way you look. For example, long after my days of drug experimentation I kept my long hair and tail. Dopers would continually ask me if I had any drugs or wanted any. I knew FULL WELL why I was the target of thier inquiries. If you walk down the street dressed like a clown and someone asks you do do something funny it should come as no surprise and the person who asked you for the funny behavior should be congratulated for thier good observation skills.
Too walk down the street dressed like a clown and then get pissed when someone says "hey clown" is some mighty narcissistic thinking.


----------



## rtwngAvngr (Jun 14, 2005)

dilloduck said:
			
		

> They certainly shouldn't be shocked or offended when it happens. As Merlin pointed out so well, realilty is that assumptions will be made by the way you look. For example, long after my days of drug experimentation I kept my long hair and tail. Dopers would continually ask me if I had any drugs or wanted any. I knew FULL WELL why I was the target of thier inquiries. If you walk down the street dressed like a clown and someone asks you do do something funny it should come as no surprise and the person who asked you for the funny behavior should be congratulated for thier good observation skills.
> Too walk down the street dressed like a clown and then get pissed when someone says "hey clown" is some mighty narcissistic thinking.




SO THE CLOWN SHOULD JUST EXPECT TO BE RAPED?  THAT"S WRONG!


----------



## GotZoom (Jun 14, 2005)

Ladies and Gentleman...one of the longest sentences you will ever see:



			
				IControlThePast said:
			
		

> "I'll continue to treat them like *people* until they act like something different,"
> meaning if they don't act like people (we're talking about sluts here, so "them" is sluts, and acting like "something different" would in this context be acting like a slut) she will treat them differently, but that she won't treat them as less than a human unless they prove through actions.  Sluts (by action, not just appearance) don't deserve to be treated as any less or differently than a normal human.



I think that is what we have been saying all along.  Don't treat people by appearance, treat them by actions. 

So you have changed your mind now?


----------



## IControlThePast (Jun 14, 2005)

GotZoom said:
			
		

> Ladies and Gentleman...one of the longest sentences you will ever see:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Southern people write in long sentences like Faulkner .  

Slults should be treated as human beings even if they are sluts by actions.  Just because they are a slut doesn't mean you can treat them any worse.  No, I still think most people form an opinion based on physical appearance and mannerisms.



			
				rtwngAvngr said:
			
		

> Yet they should EXPECT poor treatment?  That's what you said before or someone said it.



That's because people will treat them poorly.  Do they deserve it?  No.  Should people treat them poorly, even based on actions?  No.  But that's what happens in the real world.


----------



## rtwngAvngr (Jun 14, 2005)

IControlThePast said:
			
		

> That's because people will treat them poorly.  Do they deserve it?  No.  Should people treat them poorly, even based on actions?  No.  But that's what happens in the real world.



yeah. blame the victim.


----------



## no1tovote4 (Jun 14, 2005)

rtwngAvngr said:
			
		

> yeah. blame the victim.




Victim?  I thought we were talking about sluts.  It seems more like people would be judging by choices made, not by victim status.

I expect people to judge me by the choices I make.  I wear cowboy boots, people will think about me one way because of that.  I wear my wedding ring, people will assume that I am married.  What you wear gives people a message which you are looking to portray to the rest of the world, one about the choices one makes.  While I would never be personally rude to a person who makes different choices, it is likely you choose friends with the same values and the same interests.

If I meet a guy dressed in "Super-Rapper" clothes it is unlikely we will have many interests in common.  Am I wrong for judging him on the message he sent by the clothes he wears?  I didn't judge him poorly, I simply made some observations just as he would with me.  He sees a cowboy hat and boots is he likely to think that I have much in common with him?


----------



## rtwngAvngr (Jun 14, 2005)

Joz said:
			
		

> No one _expects_ to be raped.  And no one gets raped becuse of _how they look_.  I said before if this were the case then no woman need fear except those women who exposed themselves, willingly.  And that's not how things work.  Granted, I'm sure this has happened but it is not the norm.  And you know that.




What do i know?


----------



## no1tovote4 (Jun 14, 2005)

Joz said:
			
		

> Now, you''ve made this personal.    HOW were you going to upset me, when I tho't this is what I've been saying?
> 
> People look at others and they quickly form an opinion.  A man in an expensive suit, in an expensive car, well groomed? Must have money, be well bred.  What about the movie 'Dirty Rotten Scoundrels'?  I
> t's _all_ about presentation.  I'm sure we hope that someone will take the time to get to know the _real me_ but sometimes that just doesn't happen.
> ...



People look at how others dress and read the "message" that they put forward for the rest of the world to read.  You carefully adjust your message so that you are not sending the message that you are dressing slutty to get better tips, this IMO is a good thing.  I would be more comfortable at such a bar, with such a bartender.  Others go to another bar because they want to "look", let them.

The assumption that we cannot judge a person by the message they choose to send by their dress seems odd to me.  This is one of the ways we use to communicate with the rest of the world, a deliberate message that often can tell a person about the interests of another and is one of the largest types of communication that we have.  How you dress is as important as what you say in communication and is one of the first things that you learn in one of the "Habits of Successful People" type courses.

Now, that being stated, it is only one form of communication and like any form of communication it has its pitfalls and inaccuracies.  People can dress and act differently than they are for a purpose, either nefarious or admirable.  It is true that one cannot judge a person entirely simply by their clothes, but one can certainly read the message that one is attempting to put forward by their clothing.


----------



## rtwngAvngr (Jun 14, 2005)

no1tovote4 said:
			
		

> Victim?  I thought we were talking about sluts.  It seems more like people would be judging by choices made, not by victim status.
> 
> I expect people to judge me by the choices I make.  I wear cowboy boots, people will think about me one way because of that.  I wear my wedding ring, people will assume that I am married.  What you wear gives people a message which you are looking to portray to the rest of the world, one about the choices one makes.  While I would never be personally rude to a person who makes different choices, it is likely you choose friends with the same values and the same interests.
> 
> If I meet a guy dressed in "Super-Rapper" clothes it is unlikely we will have many interests in common.  Am I wrong for judging him on the message he sent by the clothes he wears?  I didn't judge him poorly, I simply made some observations just as he would with me.  He sees a cowboy hat and boots is he likely to think that I have much in common with him?



But if he is beat up for wearing that stuff, should he internalize the crime and feel like it's even partially his fault?  Bullshit.  No one's attire in any way justifies violence against them.


----------



## rtwngAvngr (Jun 14, 2005)

Joz said:
			
		

> Slutty does not get you better tips.  Slutty gets you disrespect.  How can I be taken seriously if I look like I'd let any man jump me?  First, I'm mostly dealing with men.  Then under the inflluence of alcohol.  The woman behind the bar can become "just another whore" (unpaid) quite quickly.  I've had this problem VERY FEW times.  This is not to say that I dress like a house frau.  You can most definately tell I'm female.
> 
> But I've worked with women who purposely show their lacy bras, tell customers that they aren't wearing underwear, show their boobs for tips.  Sure the men like that, but I hear what they _say_.  I'll opt for respect.......anytime.



When are their shifts again?


----------



## Merlin1047 (Jun 14, 2005)

Joz said:
			
		

> Now, you''ve made this personal.    HOW were you going to upset me, when I tho't this is what I've been saying?



One of the hazards of posting on a board is that one's writings are not necessarily interpreted by the reader in the manner intended by the writer.  Lacking the input from normal conversational tools like inflection, body english and facial expression, the written word is often an inadequate tool.

I've seen too many people get upset because they derived meaning from a post which was not intended by the author.  So, not wanting to create a misconception, I put in that caveat.  That, and because I'm a chicken.


----------



## IControlThePast (Jun 14, 2005)

rtwngAvngr said:
			
		

> But if he is beat up for wearing that stuff, should he internalize the crime and feel like it's even partially his fault?  Bullshit.  No one's attire in any way justifies violence against them.



If you wear a uniform of the Bloods gang, even though you're not part of them, and you get shot by the Crips, you can complain it's not your fault, that is if you're not dead.  It doesn't justify it, but it obviously isn't the smartest move by you.  If you wore a "Gay and Proud" shirt and started protesting at a KKK rally, no it's not your fault what the KKK do to you, but it will be done to you and you could have prevented it if you used some common sense about the way the world works.  Don't expect people not to do something because it's wrong or unjustified.  People do wrong or unjustified things every day.  These analogies are not for rape, but being treated like the person how they would treat someone who is what your clothes would indicate you are.


----------



## GotZoom (Jun 14, 2005)

IControlThePast said:
			
		

> If you wear a uniform of the Bloods gang, even though you're not part of them, and you get shot by the Crips, you can complain it's not your fault, that is if you're not dead.  It doesn't justify it, but it obviously isn't the smartest move by you.  If you wore a "Gay and Proud" shirt and started protesting at a KKK rally, no it's not your fault what the KKK do to you, but it will be done to you and you could have prevented it if you used some common sense about the way the world works.  Don't expect people not to do something because it's wrong or unjustified.  People do wrong or unjustified things every day.  These analogies are not for rape, but being treated like the person how they would treat someone who is what your clothes would indicate you are.



I promise you that if I wore red one day, there isn't a single Crip in the world who would think that I am a Blood.


----------



## no1tovote4 (Jun 14, 2005)

Joz said:
			
		

> Slutty does not get you better tips.  Slutty gets you disrespect.  How can I be taken seriously if I look like I'd let any man jump me?  First, I'm mostly dealing with men.  Then under the inflluence of alcohol.  The woman behind the bar can become "just another whore" (unpaid) quite quickly.  I've had this problem VERY FEW times.  This is not to say that I dress like a house frau.  You can most definately tell I'm female.
> 
> But I've worked with women who purposely show their lacy bras, tell customers that they aren't wearing underwear, show their boobs for tips.  Sure the men like that, but I hear what they _say_.  I'll opt for respect.......anytime.



That would depend entirely on what type of bar you work at, and which clientelle you gather.  Many women trade on their sexiness to get larger tips, etc.  What they give up is the "being treated seriously" part in order to get more money.  We understand such transactions and they are chosen in many ways.  Which clothes a woman or man wears would be just one of them, but it is communication regardless.  To ignore the message a person sends with how they dress is ignoring a large portion of the communication we use in our society.

I will be sure to inform my daughters how their clothes say things, and make sure their clothing supports the message that they are trying to get across.  Much like body language, this form of communication is important.  Imagine dressing incorrectly while going to an interview and expecting them to not judge your mode of dress, you are unlikely to be successful getting the job you are trying for.


----------



## IControlThePast (Jun 14, 2005)

GotZoom said:
			
		

> I promise you that if I wore red one day, there isn't a single Crip in the world who would think that I am a Blood.



Well assuming they judged you by your clothes and thought you were.  Pimp out it out a little and carry a glock, wear a bandana and some ice or something.

Oh, and I thought this was pretty funny.  Judging by appearance is wrong and never happens, correct rtwngAvngr?  



			
				rtwngAvngr said:
			
		

> Icontrolthepast, where did you get that "Drunken Beer Hall Nazi"  avatar?



http://www.usmessageboard.com/forums/showpost.php?p=277597&postcount=52


----------



## rtwngAvngr (Jun 14, 2005)

IControlThePast said:
			
		

> Well assuming they judged you by your clothes and thought you were.  Pimp out it out a little and carry a glock, wear a bandana and some ice or something.
> 
> Oh, and I thought this was pretty funny.  Judging by appearance is wrong and never happens, correct rtwngAvngr?
> 
> ...




Oh, get over yourself, judy.


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## rtwngAvngr (Jun 15, 2005)

Joz said:
			
		

> That people do not get raped because of what they wear.
> 
> (Except Ted Bundy chose one of his [escaped] victims because she had on red shoes).




I don't know that.  It seems to be the premise here that they do.


----------



## dilloduck (Jun 15, 2005)

rtwngAvngr said:
			
		

> I don't know that.  It seems to be the premise here that they do.



Read again RW---NO ONE here as said anyone deserves to be raped.


----------



## rtwngAvngr (Jun 15, 2005)

Joz said:
			
		

> Explain to me why you think this.
> 
> I went back to the beginning & read this thread.  No where has anyone said that another deserves or should be or should expect to be raped or physically harmed...for any reason, let alone for the way they dress.
> 
> ...



Peep.


----------



## dmp (Jun 15, 2005)

rtwngAvngr said:
			
		

> Peep.



Your previous avatar was better...

http://www.usmessageboard.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=4328


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## 5stringJeff (Jun 15, 2005)

Joz said:
			
		

> Redheads are hot



Most redheads are hot!


----------



## rtwngAvngr (Jun 15, 2005)

Maybe noone said they deserve it.  But it has been said they shouldn't be suprised. and It has been said they should expect poor treatment.  

You guys are old coots.  The styles today are more revealing and the inferences and judgements you guys make are not made by all.  Get unsquare.


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## dmp (Jun 15, 2005)

I just took Codeine!  yay!


----------



## rtwngAvngr (Jun 15, 2005)

Joz said:
			
		

> No one said they _should expect_ anything.  Just not to be surprised if it happened.


Big difference.


> Don't you take a smart-ass attitude with me, young man!


Sorry.


> Styles are more revealing.  I like to see a young girl in low slung jeans and a halter.  I don't want to see her thong.
> I like to see a young lady in a short skirt and thigh-high stockings but I dont want to see her ass.  A woman can be dressed sexily and still be covered.
> Get YOUR head out of your ass and do a little growing up.



I guess that makes you the fashion police then.
 :funnyface


----------



## rtwngAvngr (Jun 15, 2005)




----------



## GotZoom (Jun 15, 2005)

rtwngAvngr said:
			
		

>



I suppose that if this person was dressed this way at an Al Qaeda membership meeting, he/she would be out of place.

But just by looking at the person, the only assumption I would have is that he/she is patriotic.

Seeing someone stand somewhere dressed in a certain way is one thing.  Everyone has expectations of what is proper in the particular circumstance. 

Just like wearing a bathing suit into a hospital would not be appropritate.

But that would not make me think that person is a slut, or mental, or...

I see someone dressed "sluttily" - I don't immediate think she is a slut.  I might think that what she is wearing is inappropriate for where she is, but to automatically assume I know certain things about her, is not correct.


----------



## manu1959 (Jun 15, 2005)

rtwngAvngr said:
			
		

>



just out of frame ....the piece of paper is on fire and.... he....yes he, look at the hands .... is about to light the flag on fire ...... 


*sniper take the shot*


----------



## GotZoom (Jun 15, 2005)

manu1959 said:
			
		

> just out of frame ....the piece of paper is on fire and.... he....yes he, look at the hands .... is about to light the flag on fire ......
> 
> 
> *sniper take the shot*


Then I didn't see the person - was not given the correct information to make a judgment. 

Now....lighting the flag...no reason to make an assumption based on clothing/appearance.  

Let me pull the trigger


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## no1tovote4 (Jun 15, 2005)

GotZoom said:
			
		

> I suppose that if this person was dressed this way at an Al Qaeda membership meeting, he/she would be out of place.
> 
> But just by looking at the person, the only assumption I would have is that he/she is patriotic.
> 
> ...



My point is that the clothes you wear are a large part of the communication that we use to get by in society daily and to ignore that as part of the message you are transmitting to others is simply shortsighted.

As I said before, I will teach this to my children and will insure that they know what they are telling people "about" themselves.  The information may often be garbled because many do not understand that this too, just like body language, is part of their communication with others.  Those who realize this, and understand the messages, can insure that the message they send with their clothing is one that they actually want rather than letting trends set the message they can control their own communication.


----------



## GotZoom (Jun 15, 2005)

no1tovote4 said:
			
		

> My point is that the clothes you wear are a large part of the communication that we use to get by in society daily and to ignore that as part of the message you are transmitting to others is simply shortsighted.
> 
> As I said before, I will teach this to my children and will insure that they know what they are telling people "about" themselves.  The information may often be garbled because many do not understand that this too, just like body language, is part of their communication with others.  Those who realize this, and understand the messages, can insure that the message they send with their clothing is one that they actually want rather than letting trends set the message they can control their own communication.



Be sure to include EVERY way they act.  How they speak, eat, walk, drink, drive, respect people, work ethic, school study ethic - ALL these things give people the opportunity, wrong or not, to pass judgement before they find out what that person is really like.


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## no1tovote4 (Jun 15, 2005)

GotZoom said:
			
		

> Be sure to include EVERY way they act.  How they speak, eat, walk, drink, drive, respect people, work ethic, school study ethic - ALL these things give people the opportunity, wrong or not, to pass judgement before they find out what that person is really like.



And that is only a small part of the responsibility of the parent.  It isn't judgement that one should worry about so much rather than the fact of choices and their ability to effect your life.  Teaching how choices in even the smallest things effect their lives empowers your children and gives them more of a chance to reflect their actual self in their communication.  Bringing up such topics can only help your children in the future, rather than learning most of them by trial and error and subconsciously sending an incorrect message.


----------



## rtwngAvngr (Jun 15, 2005)

no1tovote4 said:
			
		

> My point is that the clothes you wear are a large part of the communication that we use to get by in society daily and to ignore that as part of the message you are transmitting to others is simply shortsighted.
> 
> As I said before, I will teach this to my children and will insure that they know what they are telling people "about" themselves.  The information may often be garbled because many do not understand that this too, just like body language, is part of their communication with others.  Those who realize this, and understand the messages, can insure that the message they send with their clothing is one that they actually want rather than letting trends set the message they can control their own communication.



The trend must be factored in though.  Wearing a tank top in the victorian era sends a much stronger message than it would now.  I posit that you're behind the times.


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## no1tovote4 (Jun 15, 2005)

rtwngAvngr said:
			
		

> The trend must be factored in though.  Wearing a tank top in the victorian era sends a much stronger message than it would now.  I posit that you're behind the times.




I posit that you have read too much into what I posted.  I said nothing of tank tops.


----------



## rtwngAvngr (Jun 15, 2005)

no1tovote4 said:
			
		

> I posit that you have read too much into what I posted.  I said nothing of tank tops.




It's called an example.  DURRRR!


----------



## no1tovote4 (Jun 15, 2005)

rtwngAvngr said:
			
		

> It's called an example.  DURRRR!



Much like language, trends change with the times.  I would not suggest one speak in Victorean style English, nor dress as such.  The suggestion is to get your children to consciously choose and realize that the clothes they wear is an important part of what and how they communicate.  Those that do not consciously understand this often will choose clothes based solely on their trendiness rather than the conscious choice, with children it will often be, "But so and so wear this too!" and with adults it would often be, "They don't like me because I don't make as much as they!" without regard to the conscious choice of clothing.  

Too often people will send messages with the clothes they choose that they do not understand and then blame the reaction of others on "judgement" rather than simply the garbled message they sent.  Bringing this to the front of the mind rather than letting the subconscious choose the clothes for you by what you see on others can be a great help in how successful your children will be.

Trends will set some of what people wear, but trends do also allow for the proper messages to be sent if a person consciously effects their choices.


----------



## rtwngAvngr (Jun 15, 2005)

no1tovote4 said:
			
		

> Much like language, trends change with the times.  I would not suggest one speak in Victorean style English, nor dress as such.  The suggestion is to get your children to consciously choose and realize that the clothes they wear is an important part of what and how they communicate.  Those that do not consciously understand this often will choose clothes based solely on their trendiness rather than the conscious choice, with children it will often be, "But so and so wear this too!" and with adults it would often be, "They don't like me because I don't make as much as they!" without regard to the conscious choice of clothing.
> 
> Too often people will send messages with the clothes they choose that they do not understand and then blame the reaction of others on "judgement" rather than simply the garbled message they sent.  Bringing this to the front of the mind rather than letting the subconscious choose the clothes for you by what you see on others can be a great help in how successful you children will be.
> 
> Trends will set some of what people wear, but trends do also allow for the proper messages to be sent if a person consciously effects their choices.



I'm saying your inner guide of what messages are being sent by which clothes may be outdated. 

Take shorts for instance.  They don't send a message of sluttiness now, not in most communities, but 100 yrs ago they definitely would've.  Is it possible you need to update your rosetta stone of fashion messages?


----------



## GotZoom (Jun 15, 2005)

Me thinketh the parents need to instill this in their mind when they are young. 

"Fair Maiden, Thou shallt not leaveth this house dressed as wench."

That will sticketh with them forever, so when they are adults, there will be no need to worry.


----------



## no1tovote4 (Jun 15, 2005)

rtwngAvngr said:
			
		

> I'm saying your inner guide of what messages are being sent by which clothes may be outdated.
> 
> Take shorts for instance.  They don't send a message of sluttiness now, not in most communities, but 100 yrs ago they definitely would've.  Is it possible you need to update your rosetta stone of fashion messages?



Once again, you are reading something that isn't there.  I have said nothing about shorts or tank tops or even sluttiness in my posts where I am speaking about your communication with others and the fact that consciously choosing the message you send instead of allowing garbled messages to be sent because you choose without the message in mind is a better way than simply donning clothes like this because "Susie wears them".

I simply stated bringing to the forefront the actual choices and the messages you send with them will be a benefit to your children.  To have them understand that what they wear is part of their overall communication with the rest of the world can only benefit them.

I believe you are thinking that I am "judging" another from their clothing in those posts somewhere but I am not.  I am informing.  Much like all language, trends will change with the times, it would also be important for you to understand the messages while attempting to teach your children.


----------



## GotZoom (Jun 15, 2005)

rtwngAvngr said:
			
		

> I'm saying your inner guide of what messages are being sent by which clothes may be outdated.
> 
> Take shorts for instance.  They don't send a message of sluttiness now, not in most communities, but 100 yrs ago they definitely would've.  Is it possible you need to update your rosetta stone of fashion messages?



no1tovote4 - There is a time and place for everything.  Shorts are not slutty.  They were once. 

Therefore, shorts are OK.

When do you wear shorts?  Are they appropriate at a funeral?  If I had shorts on and told you I was going to a funeral, would you think I was doing something wrong?

Most would think so.  However, what if the person who died lived their life surfing on the beach?  And wanted his funeral to be held on the beach and his ashes spread across the ocean.   

Then it would be most appropriate.


----------



## rtwngAvngr (Jun 15, 2005)

no1tovote4 said:
			
		

> Once again, you are reading something that isn't there.  I have said nothing about shorts or tank tops or even sluttiness in my posts where I am speaking about your communication with others and the fact that consciously choosing the message you send instead of allowing garbled messages to be sent because you choose without the message in mind is a better way than simply donning clothes like this because "Susie wears them".
> 
> I simply stated bringing to the forefront the actual choices and the messages you send with them will be a benefit to your children.  To have them understand that what they wear is part of their overall communication with the rest of the world can only benefit them.
> 
> I believe you are thinking that I am "judging" another from their clothing in those posts somewhere but I am not.  I am informing.  Much like all language, trends will change with the times, it would also be important for you to understand the messages while attempting to teach your children.



I'm saying the message you THINK is being sent may not actually be what most people see.  

I don't know why your having trouble with the concept of examples.  I know you didn't mention shorts or tank tops; I did, AS EXAMPLES.


----------



## GotZoom (Jun 15, 2005)

dense

adj 1: permitting little if any light to pass through because of denseness of matter; "dense smoke"; "heavy fog"; "impenetrable gloom" [syn: heavy, impenetrable] 2: closely crowded together; "a compact shopping center"; "a dense population"; "thick crowds" [syn: compact, thick] 3: hard to pass through because of dense growth; "dense vegetation"; "thick woods" [syn: thick] 4: having high relative density or specific gravity; "dense as lead" 5: slow to learn or understand; lacking intellectual acuity; "so dense he never understands anything I say to him"; "never met anyone quite so dim"; "although dull at classical learning, at mathematics he was uncommonly quick"- Thackeray; "dumb officials make some really dumb decisions"; "he was either normally stupid or being deliberately obtuse"; "worked with the slow students" [syn: dim, dull, dumb, obtuse, slow]

EXAMPLE:  I'm sure no1tovote4 is intelligent at times about different things, but he sure is dense about this.


----------



## rtwngAvngr (Jun 15, 2005)

Maybe I just like to see


----------



## GotZoom (Jun 15, 2005)

rtwngAvngr said:
			
		

> Maybe I just like to see


   are fun


----------



## 5stringJeff (Jun 15, 2005)

GotZoom said:
			
		

> are fun


----------



## no1tovote4 (Jun 15, 2005)

rtwngAvngr said:
			
		

> I'm saying the message you THINK is being sent may not actually be what most people see.
> 
> I don't know why your having trouble with the concept of examples.  I know you didn't mention shorts or tank tops; I did, AS EXAMPLES.




My point is that there is a message sent and you are attempting to say I am wrong by misapplying examples that I did not give.  Learning the messages that can be sent according to the current language would be important, but the basic message is not wrong.  It is important to bring those choices forward to the conscious mind and teach that you are responsible for the messages you send, that people's reactions are either conscious or unconscious reaction to that very message.

I have yet to attempt to give by example or otherwise what those messages might be.

Your attempt to negate my message by giving misapplied examples then attributing a misunderstanding to me that doesn't apply to the actual message is a logical fallacy.

Do you agree that the clothing that you wear is a large part of the communication whereby you send messages to others, or disagree?  This would address my point.  Now had I given examples and attempted to address each piece of clothing out of context then your examples would actually relate to the conversation at hand, instead they attempt to misdirect.

My point is that many can give incorrect messages, for whatever reason, that you would attempt to address specific messages that I have not given is denying the import of the fact that you are responsible for the choices you make in clothing.  That if you are sending the wrong message it is because of what you have communicated rather than some misapplied sense of "they shouldn't judge me for that!".

Implied in this message is that, like all other communication, the message changes with time and situation.  In the '50s gay simply meant happy, now there are different meanings attributed to the word, this is a change over time, and one would be wise to use the word appropriately within the context of the group, this is a change for the situation.  All communication relies on one's ability to understand both to whom you wish to speak and the message you want to impart and it relies on your understanding of the "language" being spoken as well.


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## rtwngAvngr (Jun 15, 2005)

no1tovote4 said:
			
		

> My point is that there is a message sent and you are attempting to say I am wrong by misapplying examples that I did not give.


I'm saying your idea of what messages are being sent may be dated.  And the examples were mine.  I KNOW you didn't give them. Am I allowed to give examples?


> Learning the messages that can be sent according to the current language would be important, but the basic message is not wrong.


I'm saying the basic message could be wrong if you're a prude.


> It is important to bring those choices forward to the conscious mind and teach that you are responsible for the messages you send, that people's reactions are either conscious or unconscious reaction to that very message.
> 
> I have yet to attempt to give by example or otherwise what those messages might be.
> 
> ...



I gave the examples.  I'm not misapplying examples or whatever you said.  You're getting a bit worked up about this.


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## GotZoom (Jun 15, 2005)

no1tovote4 said:
			
		

> My point is that there is a message sent and you are attempting to say I am wrong by misapplying examples that I did not give.  Learning the messages that can be sent according to the current language would be important, but the basic message is not wrong.  It is important to bring those choices forward to the conscious mind and teach that you are responsible for the messages you send, that people's reactions are either conscious or unconscious reaction to that very message.
> 
> I have yet to attempt to give by example or otherwise what those messages might be.
> 
> ...




Not if people do not make assumptions before they know the facts.  

EXAMPLE ALERT EXAMPLE ALERT EXAMPLE ALERT EXAMPLE ALERT

If I see a guy walking through the mall wearing a pink polo shirt, I shouldn't automatically assume he is gay.

But if he is at Disneyland during GayDay, then I could assume that. 

I'm not going to treat him differently either way just because of the pink shirt.


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## rtwngAvngr (Jun 15, 2005)

Im sorry, you guys are prudes.  There are worse things to be, it's not that big a deal.


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## rtwngAvngr (Jun 15, 2005)

I've admitted I may be influenced by a love of boobs.  Can anyone else admit they just don't like their men oggling pretty young things?


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## no1tovote4 (Jun 15, 2005)

rtwngAvngr said:
			
		

> I'm saying your idea of what messages are being sent may be dated.  And the examples were mine.  I KNOW you didn't give them. Am I allowed to give examples?



And a portion of my point is that this is all part of it and the understanding of what you are saying in your communication is extremely important and this means understanding the current trends would be most helpful when teaching this to your children.



> I'm saying the basic message could be wrong if you're a prude.
> 
> I gave the examples.  I'm not misapplying examples or whatever you said.  You're getting a bit worked up about this.



I am not worked up, that would be inferring that I somehow was angry about it.  I just want to be clear about the point I am making which is the understanding that what you wear sends messages to others and that we should work to be conscious of this fact, to learn to send the correct messages regardless of what situation in which we may find ourselves.

I think your points might be made to actually stress that learning the current "language" would be a worthy effort when attempting to impart this knowledge to your children and thus strengthen the message that I am trying to impart.


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## GotZoom (Jun 15, 2005)

Joz said:
			
		

> Sorry, that's not a good example.
> 
> What about a guy who wears bikershorts to the mall, as to show off how amply endowed he is?



I probably wouldn't assume anything - I would be laughing at him too hard.


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## rtwngAvngr (Jun 15, 2005)

no1tovote4 said:
			
		

> And a portion of my point is that this is all part of it and the understanding of what you are saying in your communication is extremely important and this means understanding the current trends would be most helpful when teaching this to your children.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sounds good !


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## no1tovote4 (Jun 15, 2005)

rtwngAvngr said:
			
		

> Im sorry, you guys are prudes.  There are worse things to be, it's not that big a deal.



This is where I think you are wrong, you have made some sort of judgement of what I may think is "slutty" from the rather generic statement that your clothes represent a form of communication and conscious choices in clothing empowers one.  

I have yet to suggest what message a person should send at all.  There are some people that want to send the message that they are on the prowl, why shouldn't they do this consciously?


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## rtwngAvngr (Jun 15, 2005)

Joz said:
			
		

> I use to set my hubby & boys out on a boob/butt chase when we went to the mall.  I f they hadn't wanted to look, I'd have been REAL worried about them.



That's interesting!  ASS HUNT!


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## rtwngAvngr (Jun 15, 2005)

no1tovote4 said:
			
		

> This is where I think you are wrong, you have made some sort of judgement of what I may think is "slutty" from the rather generic statement that your clothes represent a form of communication and conscious choices in clothing empowers one.
> 
> I have yet to suggest what message a person should send at all.  There are some people that want to send the message that they are on the prowl, why shouldn't they do this consciously?



Perhaps I stand corrected.


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## no1tovote4 (Jun 15, 2005)

Joz said:
			
		

> I use to set my hubby & boys out on a boob/butt chase when we went to the mall.  I f they hadn't wanted to look, I'd have been REAL worried about them.




Eye candy is one of the few joys of men while at the Mall.  There aren't enough electronics stores to make it a painless experience....


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## GotZoom (Jun 15, 2005)

Joz said:
			
		

> Yes inbetween the snickers were comments on his insecurity.  I'd almost bet it wasn't all him either....not since _it_ was mid thigh....and he was just a little shit.



Yeah..but I just realized that I used the word "hard" in the same post with the words, "guy", "bikershorts", and "endowed".

Ewwwwwwww...........


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## IControlThePast (Jun 15, 2005)

GotZoom said:
			
		

> Not if people do not make assumptions before they know the facts.
> 
> EXAMPLE ALERT EXAMPLE ALERT EXAMPLE ALERT EXAMPLE ALERT
> 
> ...



You can't even assume he was gay at Disneyland.  I've been on GayDay.  It was with my Church youthgroup.  I wore a red shirt.  Red shirts are the color you wear at Disneyland if you're gay on GayDay.  I'm not gay.  I just didn't know that it was GayDay becuase I don't keep track of those things.


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## 5stringJeff (Jun 15, 2005)

Joz said:
			
		

> I use to set my hubby & boys out on a boob/butt chase when we went to the mall.  I f they hadn't wanted to look, I'd have been REAL worried about them.



That's awesome.  I'm going shopping with you!


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## Annie (Jun 15, 2005)

Joz said:
			
		

> And this is what I wear to work.
> 
> 
> http://www.newport-news.com/shop/Pr...eID=177222&mainstyleid=236344&prodnum=5231345


Nice. I looked around a bit, but none of the top/jackets come in petites.


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## GotZoom (Jun 15, 2005)

IControlThePast said:
			
		

> You can't even assume he was gay at Disneyland.  I've been on GayDay.  It was with my Church youthgroup.  I wore a red shirt.  Red shirts are the color you wear at Disneyland if you're gay on GayDay.  I'm not gay.  I just didn't know that it was GayDay becuase I don't keep track of those things.



So...what you are saying is that it is a good thing that no one assumed something about you strictly by what you were wearing. 

Because if they had..red shirt on Gayday, they would have been wrong. 

Be careful - you are almost proving my point.


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## GotZoom (Jun 15, 2005)

Joz said:
			
		

> And this is what I wear to work.
> 
> 
> http://www.newport-news.com/shop/Pr...eID=177222&mainstyleid=236344&prodnum=5231345



The first two I would not think would be appropriate for work. 

The last one is.

All three are appropriate for an evening out. 

None of the three are slutty to me.


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## IControlThePast (Jun 15, 2005)

GotZoom said:
			
		

> So...what you are saying is that it is a good thing that no one assumed something about you strictly by what you were wearing.
> 
> Because if they had..red shirt on Gayday, they would have been wrong.
> 
> Be careful - you are almost proving my point.



No, actually I'm not proving your point.  A number of people there assumed I was gay, as would you have per your admission.  I wish nobody had judged me by what I was wearing, but it's the real world and that's what happens.  I've learned to deal with it.


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## GotZoom (Jun 15, 2005)

IControlThePast said:
			
		

> No, actually I'm not proving your point.  A number of people there assumed I was gay, as would you have per your admission.  I wish nobody had judged me by what I was wearing, but it's the real world and that's what happens.  I've learned to deal with it.



If you read my first post about GayDay....you will notice I said:

But if he is at Disneyland during GayDay, then I could assume that. 

I didn't say that I would.  I don't assume anything based on appearance.

You said an number of people assumed you were gay.  How do you know that?  

Were you hit on by dozens of men?


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## Trinity (Jun 15, 2005)

GotZoom said:
			
		

> Not if people do not make assumptions before they know the facts.
> 
> EXAMPLE ALERT EXAMPLE ALERT EXAMPLE ALERT EXAMPLE ALERT
> 
> ...




What about the guy who jumps up on the pole, and poledances every Friday and saturday night when he's drunk is he gay?


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## GotZoom (Jun 15, 2005)

Trinity said:
			
		

> What about the guy who jumps up on the pole, and poledances every Friday and saturday night when he's drunk is he gay?



You are asking if a guy who is drunk, who also jumps up on a pole and poledances every Friday and Saturday night - you are asking if he is gay?

I have no idea.

You know someone who does this?


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## Trinity (Jun 15, 2005)

GotZoom said:
			
		

> You are asking if a guy who is drunk, who also jumps up on a pole and poledances every Friday and Saturday night - you are asking if he is gay?
> 
> I have no idea.
> 
> You know someone who does this?




Yeah, I keep telling him he is never going to get a girl if he doesn't stay off the damn pole!!


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## GotZoom (Jun 15, 2005)

Trinity said:
			
		

> Yeah, I keep telling him he is never going to get a girl if he doesn't stay off the damn pole!!


So...IS HE Gay?

If so, he doesn't want the girl.


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## Trinity (Jun 15, 2005)

GotZoom said:
			
		

> So...IS HE Gay?
> 
> If so, he doesn't want the girl.




No, I don't think he is, just because he tried so hard to convince me of all the reasons why I should date a 21 year old, NOT! However all my bouncer's at work think diffrently.


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## IControlThePast (Jun 15, 2005)

GotZoom said:
			
		

> If you read my first post about GayDay....you will notice I said:
> 
> But if he is at Disneyland during GayDay, then I could assume that.
> 
> ...



Yep.  It was horrible.      I had a pass for three parks, so after I being hit on by 10 guys I decided to spend the rest of the day at Epcot and MGM.


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## GotZoom (Jun 15, 2005)

IControlThePast said:
			
		

> Yep.  It was horrible.      I had a pass for three parks, so after I being hit on by 10 guys I decided to spend the rest of the day at Epcot and MGM.



They demonstrated the evil of making an assumption about someone based on the way that person was dressed.

They saw you wearing something and made an assumption about it. 

And they were wrong.


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## IControlThePast (Jun 15, 2005)

GotZoom said:
			
		

> They demonstrated the evil of making an assumption about someone based on the way that person was dressed.
> 
> They saw you wearing something and made an assumption about it.
> 
> And they were wrong.



Yes, but they made the assumption about it, whether they were right or it was just or not, that's what they did.  That's the way things work.


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