# The Jews and the Native Americans



## KevinWestern (Jun 3, 2013)

Hey Dudes, I'm a newbie to the subject and wanted to explore the below comparison:

Israel was the home of the Jews long ago, but over time (via numerous historical events) it eventually fell into the hands of the Muslims. 

North America was once the home of various large Native American tribes (for thousands and thousands of years), but over time it eventually came under the control of "Western" foreigners.
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For those who support the newly installed state of Israel following WWII, how would you feel about a foreign gov't coming into the US and forcefully installing a Native American state over (perhaps) 4-6 states? *

My take:
Personally, I'd be pretty ticked off if China came into the US and gave whatever tribe controlled Illinois (and Chicago) back to the Native American tribes who once controlled the region; would you if this happened in your city/town? 

This is why I'm sort of undecided when it comes to the question "do I support the Modern Israeli state". To support it full fledged would sorta make me a hypocrite.



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## Hossfly (Jun 3, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


> Hey Dudes, I'm a newbie to the subject and wanted to explore the below comparison:
> 
> Israel was the home of the Jews long ago, but over time (via numerous historical events) it eventually fell into the hands of the Muslims.
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Wouldn't fly. Too many NRA members.


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## KevinWestern (Jun 3, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> KevinWestern said:
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Come on, that's a bit of a cop out. I know you have an opinion on the subject. Let's say Gov't took away all of your guns (the unfortunate path our country is headed), and this actually happened.

How would you react? How would you feel now having to report to a Native American Chief and follow those rules or leave? Oh yea, and now you (gunless) have to face the Native American military which is being 100% funded and supplied by a very advanced and powerful Chinese Military. 

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## Hossfly (Jun 3, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


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As I stated to you in another thread, Israel was given the land  as a Covenant. The Indians sneaked in here like everybody else. Simple as that.


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## KevinWestern (Jun 3, 2013)

Hossfly said:


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Listen, I'm not saying that's not the case (I wasn't there thousands and thousands of years ago, and have an open mind), but that argument is a religious one that cannot be proven true or false. It won't hold up in a court of law, and is specific to a single religious viewpoint (disregarding the viewpoints of all other religious beliefs). 

Are you an American? Don't you believe that every human has an equal say to a matter and should be considered? 

How do you know the same God didn't assign the Native Americans to North America? Was he not around when they were occupying North America for literally thousands and thousands of years? 

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## hoosier88 (Jun 3, 2013)

Hossfly said:


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(My bold)

*Covenant *covers everyone who follows the Talmud or the Bible.  Most of the World doesn't, & of course, Islam follows the Koran.  So putting forth a Jewish/Christian religious argument isn't going to convince anyone, except those who are already convinced.  Preaching to the *minyan*, I suppose, to coin a phrase.    

The Native Peoples didn't have to *sneak in*; TMK, there were no other people here @ the time.  So they just walked in, or rowed across, or sailed - whichever theory of their populating the New World you happen to like.


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## flowery (Jun 3, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


> Israel was the home of the Jews long ago, but over time (via numerous historical events) it eventually fell into the hands of the Muslims.
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Says who ????

Please don't twist the truth

The Torah (the Jewish Holly Book) itself indicate that the Canaanites (the Arabs ) have the former presence in Palestine 

and by the way there are no book cursing Jews as the Torah itself
And the earth is not signed by anyone only one of obey God


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## sealadaigh (Jun 3, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


> Hey Dudes, I'm a newbie to the subject and wanted to explore the below comparison:
> 
> Israel was the home of the Jews long ago, but over time (via numerous historical events) it eventually fell into the hands of the Muslims.
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again, "native american" is and ethnicity. "jews" are adherents or whose parents or whatever of a religion.  it does have an ethnic component, but most religions do. for instance, i am a catholic...am i irish, italian, german, etc.

a better analogy would be if mormons declaring utah a nation, having the UN approve it, and having the chinese come in and support that nation economically and militarily...oh, and then they find this book written by joeseph smith that says god promised them colorado and arizona as well....


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## MHunterB (Jun 3, 2013)

The 'analogy' *in the OP* is too far from being factually accurate to consider seriously, IMHO.

I think it'd be more useful to discuss verifiable facts than suppositions which relate to an impossible hypothetical situation.


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## MHunterB (Jun 3, 2013)

Incidentally, most of my NA friends and acquaintances are quite supportive of Judaism, Israel and Zionism.

But then they have an accurate understanding of Zionism and don't confuse it with 'European imperialism'.


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## sealadaigh (Jun 3, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> The 'analogy' is too far from being factually accurate to consider, IMHO.



you are far from humble...and to whose analogy are you referring.


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## MHunterB (Jun 3, 2013)

Why did you start with WW2, Kevin?  Why don't you look a bit further back - if you want to discuss the actual history and not merely some fantasy scenario?

NOTHING in your intial premise is accurate.  For example, the land once known as 'Judea' fell into the hands of the 'Muslims'.......  do you think all Muslims are the same?  The land was controlled by the Ottoman Empire, ruled by (non Arab) Turks.  

Maybe that doesn't matter to you, but it does affect your scenario.

I'd also like to know what you, Kevin, think is meant by 'Zionism'?


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jun 3, 2013)

flowery said:


> KevinWestern said:
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As far as I know, the Canaanites weren't Arabs.


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## sealadaigh (Jun 3, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> Incidentally, most of my NA friends and acquaintances are quite supportive of Judaism, Israel and Zionism.
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> But then they have an accurate understanding of Zionism and don't confuse it with 'European imperialism'.



it would be nice if your friends made a distinction between colonialiasm and imperialism. is there some reason why felt it necessary to mention "european" along with "imperialism".

zionism, as it is practised. is colonialism in the classic sense.

and, as you like to remind people constantly, the accuracy of your friend's understanding is only your opinion, as is their understanding only their opinionion..


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## GHook93 (Jun 3, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


> Hey Dudes, I'm a newbie to the subject and wanted to explore the below comparison:
> 
> Israel was the home of the Jews long ago, but over time (via numerous historical events) it eventually fell into the hands of the Muslims.
> 
> ...



Not even close to a good comparison! The Native America genocide has been way overplayed and the were dozen upon dozen of Indian tribes. Most were nomadic, war'ed with each other, were as different as they were with the white man, lived on only small parts of land and the wars between the white man the Indians were as much the Indian's fault as the white man's.


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## MHunterB (Jun 3, 2013)

"Come on, that's a bit of a cop out. I know you have an opinion on the subject. Let's say Gov't took away all of your guns (the unfortunate path our country is headed), and this actually happened.

How would you react? How would you feel now having to report to a Native American Chief and follow those rules or leave? *Oh yea, and now you (gunless) have to face the Native American military which is being 100% funded and supplied by a very advanced and powerful Chinese Military*."

OK, Kevin - You can choose to drop your pretense of 'being undecided' - or you can drop the lying propaganda BS.  Its up to you.......

I don't mind discussing matters with "pro-Palestinian" folks:  in fact, I think many supporters of Israel are indeed 'pro-Palestinian', as we recognize that a peaceful and prosperous 'Palestine' would be Israel's best hope for the future : ))


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## Hossfly (Jun 3, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> Incidentally, most of my NA friends and acquaintances are quite supportive of Judaism, Israel and Zionism.
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> But then they have an accurate understanding of Zionism and don't confuse it with 'European imperialism'.


Actually, Marg, we used to have Native American posters, such as one from the Navajo Nation of the Dené tribe in Arizona, and they were all for Israel.


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## KevinWestern (Jun 3, 2013)

GHook93 said:


> KevinWestern said:
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Thanks for the neg rep and the message "STFU you stupid fuck!". You sound like a real pleasant, respectful, and interesting human being. 


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## KevinWestern (Jun 3, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> Why did you start with WW2, Kevin?  Why don't you look a bit further back - if you want to discuss the actual history and not merely some fantasy scenario?
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> NOTHING in your intial premise is accurate.  For example, the land once known as 'Judea' fell into the hands of the 'Muslims'.......  do you think all Muslims are the same?  The land was controlled by the Ottoman Empire, ruled by (non Arab) Turks.
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Here's the root of what I'm getting at.

Israel (as it exists today) did not exist prior to WWII and the mass flight of the Jews. As I understand it, it was Britain who created it's borders, and it was NOT well received by the powers who resided in that region (as evidence by the war that broke out shortly thereafter). 

Is it okay for a foreign entity/government/ect to draw out the borders of a nation without the consent of those currently in power, currently living in the region where the borders are being drawn?


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## Hossfly (Jun 3, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


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Don't dig any deeper or you'll end up in China.


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## KevinWestern (Jun 3, 2013)

Hossfly said:


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MHunter provides a bit of information to help me shape, improve my knowledge of the subject. You, on the other hand, don't provide much of anything except for one-liners.

Sort of a waste of server space (or wherever these posts are stored), don't you think?  

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## sealadaigh (Jun 3, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> Why did you start with WW2, Kevin?  Why don't you look a bit further back - if you want to discuss the actual history and not merely some fantasy scenario?
> 
> NOTHING in your intial premise is accurate.  For example, the land once known as 'Judea' fell into the hands of the 'Muslims'.......  do you think all Muslims are the same?  The land was controlled by the Ottoman Empire, ruled by (non Arab) Turks.
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there is nothing wrong with a hypothetical analogy, particularly when the creation of the state of israel is pretty much without precedent.


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## Hossfly (Jun 3, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


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Sorry 'bout that. Go ahead and get some learnin'. I won't bother you.


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## KevinWestern (Jun 3, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> Why did you start with WW2, Kevin?  Why don't you look a bit further back - if you want to discuss the actual history and not merely some fantasy scenario?
> 
> NOTHING in your intial premise is accurate.  For example, the land once known as 'Judea' fell into the hands of the 'Muslims'.......  do you think all Muslims are the same?  The land was controlled by the Ottoman Empire, ruled by (non Arab) Turks.
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You're missing the argument. 

What's important is that it was not the Jews who were in control of the region when Israel was plopped down (officially) following WWII. They didn't even represent a majority of the population. 

Or am I incorrect? Were the Jews in control of the Palestinian region at the time?

Point being is that I see the creation of the Israeli nation as such; the Brits forcefully drew the borders of the state in a region that was not theirs to the dismay of the powers that were residing in the area. 

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## KevinWestern (Jun 3, 2013)

Hossfly said:


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Don't apologize to me, I'm just trying to help you get some meaningful thought out there to foster a healthy discussion (instead of wasting your time with one-liners).


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## Hossfly (Jun 3, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


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One liners are clear, correct and consise. Doesn't fill the air with a lot of unnecessary tripe and jabberwocky.


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## sealadaigh (Jun 3, 2013)

Hossfly said:


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American Indian activist Russell Means said President-elect Obama was selected by the colonial powers as president to improve the US image globally in the aftermath of George Bush. Further, Means said Obamas appointments show that he is a Zionist controlled by Israel. Speaking on Red Town Radio today, Means said what is happening now to Palestinians is what happened to American Indians.

Every policy the Palestinians are now enduring was practiced on the American Indian, Means said on the Blog Talk Radio show, hosted by Brenda Golden, Muskoke Creek. What the American Indian Movement says is that the American Indians are the Palestinians of the United States, and the Palestinians are the American Indians of the Middle East, Means said. Further, he points out that the Zionists who control Israel now control the United States. The power of the US in world politics diminishes every day.

Russell Means Breaks the Silence on Obama » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

wanbli ohitika (russell means) is his native name and i have always tried to use them out of respect. i think he speaks for A.I.M. and representnts the rights of many indigenous people, to include the irish.

most native americans support A.I.M. with the exception of those few whose ancestors have succumbed to having the "indian" beaten out of them in the reservation schools when they were run by evangelical christians.

jaysus, maire, and joe don't lie...and neither should you.

(discussing the internal politics of A.I.M. would be off topic.)


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## KevinWestern (Jun 3, 2013)

Hossfly said:


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Much like how the one-liner soundbites have fostered healthy political debate within the United States in the past decade or so? 




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## P F Tinmore (Jun 3, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


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Good place to start.

The Origins and Evolution of the Palestine Problem - CEIRPP, DPR study - Foreword, table of contents (30 June 1990)


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## peach174 (Jun 3, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


> Hey Dudes, I'm a newbie to the subject and wanted to explore the below comparison:
> 
> Israel was the home of the Jews long ago, but over time (via numerous historical events) it eventually fell into the hands of the Muslims.
> 
> ...




The New Israel State was made from a territory, not an already established State.

If America still had had territories instead of states in WWII, then yes, there should have been an American Indian State.


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## sealadaigh (Jun 3, 2013)

peach174 said:


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some people/nations have different concepts about states different from those of colonialist powers. some peoples, to include the native peoples of the americas, did not have political borders, as was their practice and their right.

i think to assume that other cultures have the same relationship with the land as the european cultures do is undertandable because it is so ingrained, but it is ignorant nonetheless.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jun 3, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


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I was reading some of these links that you provided, and it's interesting that in some of the agreements that Britain made with the Arabs, "Palestine" isn't even mentioned by that name, but only as a part of Syria.


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## MHunterB (Jun 3, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


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## MHunterB (Jun 3, 2013)

Guns Germs, & Steel: Home

Has anyone else read the book?  There is no one 'correct' historical narrative available, but I think this author is on to something.

The germs are an important part of the scenario which most historical accounts do not include.


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## MHunterB (Jun 3, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


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Several items in your account which I will dispute - right after the frozen foods are secured.  The kitton, in his irascible fashion, is disinterested in the new kibble and prefers to munch on the bag of cauliflower.......


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## MHunterB (Jun 3, 2013)

Kevin:  "You're missing the argument. 
What's important is that it was not the Jews who were in control of the region when Israel was plopped down (officially) following WWII. They didn't even represent a majority of the population. 

Or am I incorrect? Were the Jews in control of the Palestinian region at the time?

Point being is that I see the creation of the Israeli nation as such; the Brits forcefully drew the borders of the state in a region that was not theirs to the dismay of the powers that were residing in the area"


*Marg:  "Prior to the British (French and American) involvement, pretty much the entire ME was controlled by the non-Arab Ottoman Turks.   They were as much a 'colonial' administration as any European group would have been:  there *was* no Arab rule  in any part of their territory so far as I am aware.

This article may help explain part of what happened in the Ottoman territory during the important time *prior* to when you think things began....    Rise of nationalism under the Ottoman Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia "*


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## pbel (Jun 3, 2013)

Hossfly said:


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what covenant? Show us a deed! As usual you add Hosshiite when you have no logical answer.


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## Hossfly (Jun 3, 2013)

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Was it time for you to get your cheap thrill again, Phillip, so since you felt you had to get this needed thrill, you resorted to calling me "Hosshiite" again.  Why not sign up with a dating site instead if you are so frustrated?


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## MHunterB (Jun 3, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


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Its sad to see that Means has succumbed to the insanity of conspiranuttery:  the whole 'colonialist' thing, and of course the filthy slander of 'Zionist controlled by Israel' about the current president.

The kind of thing that only extremely ignorant or evil people say, that slander.  I'm hoping Means is simply that ignorant.

*most native americans support A.I.M. with the exception of those few whose ancestors have succumbed to having the "indian" beaten out of them in the reservation schools when they were run by evangelical christians.*  This is not the case with the NA people I know:  none of them are even nominally  Christian in any way.   Well, I can go and ask and see what different people posting have to say about the quote you've provided.


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## MHunterB (Jun 3, 2013)

Oh, sealie?  Just what was it I posted which you deemed to be a 'lie'?  Are you seriously going to claim that recycled filth about 'Zionist control of the President' is some "truth" that I "know"  - or were you merely trying to insinuate that Means in his conspiranuttery speaks for even a large number of NA people?


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 3, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


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No, it is not. Absent an agreement about borders, between the parties, Palestinians and Israelis, Israel will never have legitimacy under international law. That is beacause it is the indigenous peoples who had sovereignty rights in the land, which did not include all the Jewish  settlers of the past century, and the UN Charter makes acquisition of lands by military conquest unlawful.


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## Jroc (Jun 3, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


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Sorry but all those Arabs are not "indigenous"...understand?


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## MHunterB (Jun 3, 2013)

If Israel has 'no legitimacy under international law', how is it a member state of the UN?  That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 3, 2013)

Jroc said:


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I pity you and your inability to see the truth.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 3, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> If Israel has 'no legitimacy under international law', how is it a member state of the UN?  That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.



Being a UN Member does not establish borders for Nations. A Nation without borders, that is a huge problem Israel has there!


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## Jroc (Jun 3, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


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You're the one who should be pitied, you're consumed with hate. I have no such illness


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 4, 2013)

Jroc said:


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They are human beings,  who I see as human beings, all the Arabs you do not recognize.  As long as I see every person as a human being created in the image of God and see that no matter what any man may do they have the capacity to change, I am fine and I hate noone. Nothing you can do to make me hate you or anyone else. As I said, I pity you. Pity is not hate


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## Jroc (Jun 4, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


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Jews a little less so right? holocaust denying Jews hater ..Get some help


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## MHunterB (Jun 4, 2013)

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Just one more way to puff yourself up with that pride, sherrikins......  You sure have some screaming need to set yourself above anyone else!  A hint for ya, sherriliar:  people who don't hate, don't call others 'scum of the earth' the way you have.


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## flowery (Jun 4, 2013)

Jroc said:


> Jews a little less so right? holocaust denying Jews hater ..




Lets' pretend "holocaust" was true ,, Israel commits the same as "holocaust" against Muslims in Palestine everyday


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## sealadaigh (Jun 4, 2013)

MHunterB said:


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## sealadaigh (Jun 4, 2013)

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wanbli ohitika was a spoksperson for many american indians and indigenous peoples around the world until his death. he doesn't speak for all of them. i agree with his core opinion and stance on israel. i think the implication that most american indians accept israel is a kie.

i have no idea about your native american friends. i live out west and israel has only come up in a conversation once, and the tribal members present at the tribal council passed a resolution opposing the occupation. 

you say they support israel. so? do you expect them to be confrontational. i have no idea what that means. i think though, thay that support would dwindle if the question were asked in more generic terms.

at any rate, this has absolutely nothing to do with the scenario presented in the opening post. it is a deflection on your part and hoss' part.

i have never seen anyone really address the issue of israel in generic terms....which very simply put is "would you support a people going back to a currently populated land that they claim inhabited millenia ago, based upon their religion, and displacing the native people, and establishing a state based upon that religion?"

i think people who are jewish should be treated equally as all other people, not less important and not special.


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## editec (Jun 4, 2013)

Those of you seeking MORAL JUSTIFICATION for the existence of Israel or any other nation state are wasting your time.  

Nation states are Amoral..._all of them._

Unless your a faith-based geopolitical thinker, in which case *one can justify anything with magical thinking.*

Now seriously...other than those of us who ARE magical thinkers, who among us did not ALREADY know this?

Certainly this threads author understands that perfectly.  

His rhetorical post is just that...a statement pretending to be a question.

Rhetorical chum cast into these waters infested by Israel-obsessed.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 4, 2013)

editec said:


> Those of you seeking MORAL JUSTIFICATION for the existence of Israel or any other nation state are wasting your time.
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> Nation states are Amoral..._all of them._
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I agree, Nations are all amoral. But where does that take us, exactly, whether we acknowledge that or we do not?


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## Hossfly (Jun 4, 2013)

flowery said:


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This is disturbing news. You should notify the news media to expose this to the world Thanks for making us aware.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 4, 2013)

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I promise you there are millions of people of conscience all over this world this very moment bringing Truth into the Light about Israels atrocities against humanity. We will never ever stop talking about these crimes as long as they continue, we cannot be silenced. That is the essence of Truth, it is always brought into the Light. Sherri


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## Hossfly (Jun 4, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


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Of course you have reputable news accounts along with videos of all this activity. I have my TV remote in hand and skimming over the news channels and they aren't talking about Israel's atrocities. What gives?


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## GHook93 (Jun 4, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


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Actually you understand VERY little. The Jews have been in the land of Israel from the biblical times. There have been mass expulsions going back 100s of years ago nad many times of Jews regaining the lands to self-rule to just lose them years later. Jews have ALWAYS made up a large part of Jerusalem's population. Whent the Arab Crusaders/Caliphates entered Jerusalem lead by the great warlord, child rapist and mass murdering theft Mohammad, the Jews were the majority of Jerusalem's population. Whent he Christian Crusaders invaded Jerusalem, Jews were fighting along side Muslims against the Christians. The lands passed eventually to the Ottomans/Turks. The Turks PURPOSELY suppressed populations and during the Turkish rule of the lands, the population was at it most sparse. 

The only creditable account of the population back then was Mark Twain. He said it best the lands had few people upon them.



> Mark Twain in the Holy Land | Zionism and the State of Israel
> .. A desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds a silent mournful expanse. a desolation. we never saw a human being on the whole route. hardly a tree or shrub anywhere. Even the olive tree and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil, had almost deserted the country.
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> ...




However, even during this time the Jews were the MAJORITY in Jerusalem. 

The during the late 1800s and early 1900s many Jews migrated back to their homeland. Heck Tel Aviv was founded in 1906! This was before WW II.  Muslims migrated to the lands starting around this time also. However, it wasn't until the BRITISH WHITE PAPER days that the Muslims migrated in mass numbers. The Jews were building up the lands and forming the infrastructure to create an economic with a lot of opportunity. It was the only place at the time in the middle east, African or Asia that was doing this. The Arabs wanted in on the party and many migrated to the lands. During the British White Paper period, Jewish migration was forbiden, but Muslim immigration went unchecked. Muslims could come and they were never even checked! This is when the vast majority of the Arabs (and their dissendents) that call themselves Palestinians migrated to Israel.

You know nothing mental midget!


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 4, 2013)

There was no "Land of Israel" befire 1948. All do not buy into Zionist fairytales. Sherri


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 4, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



We have thousands of reports of human rights groups and NGOs  documenting the crimes against humanity Israel is carrying out in Palestine.  No way Israel can get rid of all of that damning evidence against her.


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## sealadaigh (Jun 4, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



you probably missed those news accounts due to the stations being overewhelmed by the reports on the plight of the nigerian christians.


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## MHunterB (Jun 4, 2013)

flowery said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > Jews a little less so right? holocaust denying Jews hater ..
> ...



The above is the kind of asinine exaggeration which makes the induhvidual's subsequent posts become unreadable.


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## editec (Jun 4, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> > Those of you seeking MORAL JUSTIFICATION for the existence of Israel or any other nation state are wasting your time.
> ...



It eliminates a significant number of completely pointless arguments about Israel and Palestine.

TAKING AWAY the _who has the higher moral ground ?_arguments gets us to the practical discussions involving things like FACTS.

Why must pro-Isreali forces be asked to morally justify the existence of their nation when no nation on EARTH can morally justify itself?

Certainly American cannot morally justify its existence.

Every nation exist and thrive on  _might, not right._

We should stop pretending we do not ALL know this.

We should also stop telling ourselves that _GOD wants this or that._

It's a freaking insult to GOD to say that _if you're a believer,_ and an insult to people's intelligence who are NOT believers.


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## MHunterB (Jun 4, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > flowery said:
> ...



Do please stop being so pretentious, l'il sherrithang.  Your babbling endlessly about made-up "atrocities" and claiming that 'Zionists yearn to spill gentile blood'  has nothing to do with any truth, let alone 'Truth'.   

The kind of asinine exaggeration in which you and this other thang are engaged can only harm the Palestinian people.  

Show some real concern for the real Palestinian civilians - and avoid propaganda sound bites and slogans.  *The Palestinians DO have some legitimate grievances regarding Israeli policy - but what you are doing will ensure that they can NEVER be addressed.*


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## longknife (Jun 4, 2013)

Well, well, well, Yet another "hate Israel" thread. Why am I not surprised?

And, is this really a "new" poster or someone with a new user name?


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## MHunterB (Jun 4, 2013)

flowery said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > Jews a little less so right? holocaust denying Jews hater ..
> ...



 So, you two 'people of conscience':  it didn't faze you any to support a Holocaust denier?


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## MHunterB (Jun 4, 2013)

flowery said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > Jews a little less so right? holocaust denying Jews hater ..
> ...



Ah, now it becomes clearer:  the Holocaust denier edited its post at 10:33 this morning.  So - whether or not the seal and the sherri actually 'agreed' with the original wording which was 'just' the idiotic exaggeration and also referred to Christians as 'victims' - they are now both appearing to 'second' Holocaust denial.  Although the " around the word Holocaust in the original version of the post *may* indicate Holocaust denial - the edit makes it blatant.

*I think that's pretty skunky behavior on 'Flowery's part.  *


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 4, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> flowery said:
> 
> 
> > Jroc said:
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The Holocaust is not the issue, I could care less how anyone feels about it. The issue is Israel Palestine.


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## longknife (Jun 4, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> > flowery said:
> ...



You will quickly learn that certain posters do everything they can to hijack threads they don't like by diverting them to something they can squabble over.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 4, 2013)

Well, to return to the thread, I do not really see a similarity between the Israelis in Palestine and the idea of Native Americans returning to their homeland. There simply never was a land of Israel before 1948.  But I see a similarity between resistance of Native Americans and Palestinians to Colonialism.  It  is natural to resist Colonialism and Occupation of ones homeland. And colonizers often call those who resist words like savage and terrorist.


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## peach174 (Jun 4, 2013)

Israel became a Kingdom in 1020 B.C.

There has never been a Palestine Nation nor Kingdom.
The Palestine State was created in 1964 (made up) by Yasser Arafat and other Arab nations. The Palestinian state is still more of a plan or ideal than an actual entity.


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## flowery (Jun 4, 2013)

peach174 said:


> Israel became a Kingdom in 1020 B.C.
> 
> There has never been a Palestine Nation nor Kingdom.
> The Palestine State was created in 1964 (made up) by Yasser Arafat and other Arab nations. The Palestinian state is still more of a plan or ideal than an actual entity.





Palestine is an Arabic country it is written in Torah because Canaanites are the Arabs,, 
it is their lands forever ,, 

Israelis came from all over the world, to dominate Palestinians lands and farms

Israelis steel their lands and souls while the world is watching

SHAME


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## Michelle420 (Jun 4, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


> Hey Dudes, I'm a newbie to the subject and wanted to explore the below comparison:
> 
> Israel was the home of the Jews long ago, but over time (via numerous historical events) it eventually fell into the hands of the Muslims.
> 
> ...



Back then Indian tribes fought against each other, There was not a united organized government. 

China is here : http://gov.idaho.gov/mediacenter/press/pdf/2011/Idaho-China Trade and Investment Relations FAQ.pdf

I don't know much about the Israel/Palestine story from a political point, except that from my understanding and I could be wrong, Israel bought the land from them and when they got it, it was not in great shape but after they made it flourish the Palestinians wanted it back. 

Kind of like Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, we made a purchase and now the argument from illegals is that we stole mexico.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 4, 2013)

peach174 said:


> Israel became a Kingdom in 1020 B.C.
> 
> There has never been a Palestine Nation nor Kingdom.
> The Palestine State was created in 1964 (made up) by Yasser Arafat and other Arab nations. The Palestinian state is still more of a plan or ideal than an actual entity.



Biblical stories do not establish a past "Land of Israel." 

You are free to keep believing in your fairytales, I choose to believe in real History.


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## sealadaigh (Jun 4, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> flowery said:
> 
> 
> > Jroc said:
> ...



i have never, ever denied the holocaust and have disagreed with those pro-palestinian posters directly who have. you are just grasping at straws.

i agreed about the treatment of the palestinians.

shall we discuss your recent defense/agreement with a rather distasteful suggestion made recently about how a black man should be treated. i never accused you of that but as long as we are doing everything we can, to include lying, to discredit other posters, i suppose such turnabout would be fair play.

i won't do it but you go right ahead. i expect it of you.

this thread is about how the actions or the actions of zionists compares with the actions of colonial powers in north america , or at least that is how it began. i made, in my opinion, a more accurate analogy using mormons.

why don't you describe the creation of the israeli state and why it would be permissable for other peoples, or more accurately, religions, to do such a thing as well instead of just whining.

here, let me give you an example...it is acceptable and should be supported if people adherent to a religion arbitrarily pick a place in time and go back to the land they inhabited at that chosen time and set up a religious state, disrupting the indigenous ethnic people whose families have been there for ceenturies.

that is rough but it is a start. keep in mind that the irish and their relationship with gods/religions is unusual and hard to define and secretive without that intent, but there is a lot of druidic influence on their practices and beliefs. they still dance at lughnasa in the celtic world and the birth of a child on samhain confers blessings on the parents and special powers on the child.

describe israel in a way that the rules will apply to other peoples.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 4, 2013)

drifter said:


> KevinWestern said:
> 
> 
> > Hey Dudes, I'm a newbie to the subject and wanted to explore the below comparison:
> ...



Israel has been ethnically cleansing the land of its indigenous people since Israel was created in 1948. From 1947 to 1949, they ethnically cleansed the land of 750,000 of its inhabitants. They steal and kill, that is the Zionist way.


Sherri


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## sealadaigh (Jun 4, 2013)

peach174 said:


> Israel became a Kingdom in 1020 B.C.
> 
> There has never been a Palestine Nation nor Kingdom.
> The Palestine State was created in 1964 (made up) by Yasser Arafat and other Arab nations. The Palestinian state is still more of a plan or ideal than an actual entity.



and israel ceased to be a kingdom 2000 years ago.

palestinian and arab culture have a different relationship with the land than european people. they are a tribal people and tribal peoples generally do not have what we define as nations. many cultures are like that.

try to respect the values and styles of other cultures instead of assuming that your culture's style is superior. it may be for you but not necessarily for them.


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## Michelle420 (Jun 4, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > KevinWestern said:
> ...



Or have they just defended their purchase of land much the same way we have ours?


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 4, 2013)

drifter said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...



The land was not purchased.


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## sealadaigh (Jun 4, 2013)

drifter said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...



we bought manhattan for trinkets from a people who had no concept of the ownership of the land....well, or so the story goes.

i think you are going to run into a lot of difficulty when you try to justify relatively recent events based upon events of the past.

you refer to an event that happened centuries ago for the most part to justify a current situation/problem. do you own slaves. it was common a couple of hundred years ago. personally, i am opposed to it.


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## Michelle420 (Jun 4, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



Can you provide an article on the same topic the background music is distracting. Plus, Ilan Pappe, a member of the (Hadash) Communist Party not sure how objective he is.

I will read it.


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## Michelle420 (Jun 4, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



I am not trying to justify anything if you read my first post, I admittedly acknowledged my limited education on the Israel situation.

It does not mean I can't pose my own questions to you and others, and it doesn't mean I can't compare what seems to be the same thing to me.

If you want to educate me then post facts, documents and articles.

Again, my understanding is this whole fight is about a strip of land that was purchased by Israel and once it flourished the palestinians wanted it back.

It just reminds me of the same argument that mexican illegals make at us, that we stole the land even though we purchased it.

No need to be defensive, it's a discussion.


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## sealadaigh (Jun 4, 2013)

drifter said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...



i'm sorry if i was abrasive. it is the nature of this board. 

i am not sure what you mean by mexican illegals or of what specifically you are speaking. the spanish colonised central america and south america the same way the british and french colonised north america so it is kind of hard to compare.

also, latino/mexican/hispanic people are an ethnicity, as are french, british, palestinians etc. israelis are jewish and that is a religious designation, not an ethnicity, at least how the israelis practice it. i, an irish catholic, could become a jewish person. you cannot convert to an ethnicity.

that, i think, is a big monkey wrentch in the various arguments.

i think you have to boil it down and make a general statement and then say that general statement applies to all people. people call me anti-semitic because i believe that "the rules" should apply equally to all people. i just shrug my shoulders now and occasionally give baack what i get. the real fact of the matter is most people caalled anti-semites are called so because of their opposition to israel. that is rificulous.


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## Michelle420 (Jun 4, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > reabhloideach said:
> ...



What I was talking about is groups like La Raza who say we basically stole the land from mexico and the retort I have read in response is treaty of guadalupe hidalgo, meaning we bought the land strip they are accusing us of stealing.

Now what  i have heard is that Israel bought the strip of land and it was barren then flourished and when it flourished the palestinians wanted the land back and acted like it was stolen.

Since I haven't read any land deed documents on treaty of guadalupe hidalgo or purchase of gaza strip, I could be ignorant.

Still, for sake of discussion if we purchased texas and the mexicans want it back because they feel we did it sneakily should we give it back ? 

If Israel purchased the land why do they have to give it back?

That's what I am getting at.

As far as making something about a group of people when the reality is not the people but something the peoples countries leaders do, well saying anything has to do with "jews" is like the muslims blaming all americans.

Americans vote and sometimes the candidate they chose doesn't win, also sometimes policies go through that some americans don't agree with.

I think blaming a group of people instead of policy or politics can be ignorant.


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## MHunterB (Jun 4, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> > flowery said:
> ...



You seem unable to understand, sherrikins:  If a person insists that 'the Holocaust didn't really happen',  they are in denial of a great many facts, 50+ million records by the Nazis of their genocide against others (not 'just' Jews).

When a person can deny such thoroughly-documented events as the Nazi deliberate intentional planned murders of millions for simply not being 'Aryan' enough - they have shown themselves to be a most unreliable reporter of events.  IE, their word cannot be trusted.

It's not about anyone's "feeeewings":  it's about facts.  

And incidentally, by your 'I could care less how anyone feels about the Holocaust' - you've as much as told us all of your willingness to embrace the people who are HAPPY about those events.  

But of course you tried to claim I'm a 'heartless bitch'.......... go figure?


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## MHunterB (Jun 4, 2013)

"The land was not purchased."

So you claim - but where's the proof that's accurate?   

"Ilan Pappe says" carries no weight.   Try again:  he is LYING if he said that.  Just like he LIES about the 'ethnic cleansing', just like he LIES about so many other issues.

Half of the 'Old Yishuv' settlements were built on land purchased for exactly that purpose, purchased legally from the legitimate owners of it at the time, well over a hundred years ago.  What point can there be in denying basic facts such as that?

I keep telling you, l'il sherrithang:  the Palestinians do not need the 'advocacy' of those who exaggerate unto idiocy or flat-out lie.  Seems to me you are actually 'invested' in hating Israel and Zionists, rather than trying to do anything positive for the Palestinians like I've been doing since I started with Hadassah.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 4, 2013)

"It happened on the day after Independence Day, when Israel was immersed in praise of itself and its democracy almost ad nauseam, and on the eve of (virtually outlawed ) Nakba Day, when the Palestinian people mark the "catastrophe" - the anniversary of the creation of Israel. My colleague Akiva Eldar published what we have always known but for which we lacked the shocking figures he revealed: By the time of the Oslo Accords, Israel had revoked the residency of 140,000 Palestinians from the West Bank. In other words, 14 percent of West Bank residents who dared to go abroad had their right to return to Israel and live here denied forever. In other words, they were expelled from their land and their homes. In other words: ethnic cleansing.While we are still desperately concealing, denying and repressing our major ethnic cleansing of 1948 - over 600,000 refugees, some who fled for fear of the Israel Defense Forces and its predecessors, some who were expelled by force - it turns out that 1948 never ended, that its spirit is still with us. Also with us is the goal of trying to cleanse this land of its Arab inhabitants as much as possible, and even a bit more. After all, that's the most covert and desired solution: the Land of Israel for the Jews, for them alone. A few people dared to say it outright - Rabbi Meir Kahane, Minister Rehavam Ze'evi and their disciples, who deserve a certain amount of praise for their integrity. Many aspire to do the same thing without admitting it."  Ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, or, democratic Israel at work - Israel News | Haaretz Daily Newspaper


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 4, 2013)

The ethnic cleansing of Palestine, part II

by*Ben White*on July 29, 2010*85. "Mondoweiss has already*reported*the*demolition*of Bedouin Palestinian homes in an-Naqab in the south of Israel. Neve Gordon and*others*have correctly*contextualised the events in terms of the wider strategic aims of 'Judaising' the Negev.The following*story*appeared in Ha'aretz the same day as armed forced and bulldozers razed Arab homes. The ethnic cleansing of Palestine, part II | Mondoweiss


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jun 4, 2013)

GHook93 said:


> KevinWestern said:
> 
> 
> > MHunterB said:
> ...



Very good post.


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## sealadaigh (Jun 4, 2013)

drifter said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...



the tresty of guadalupe hildago is unclear and has been amended a few times. it is not really a topic for this board. if we discuss it here, our posts will probably be erased.

you heard wrong, but even if you heard right, so what? the palestinians were there and a european religious group displaced them from their homes. personally, i think they were duped as much as anyone else.

what i would like you to do is try to express it in genral terms...or i can.

do you think a religious group has a right to displace a native people to establish a state based upon that religion?


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 4, 2013)

"Certainly, the Palestinian Arabs can reflect that when Roberts drew Jerusalem, the Jewish population of the land can have numbered scarcely*10*per cent of the total. There had always been a continued physical Jewish presence there over the centuries; it was for the Jews too an ancient homeland. But eight years before Roberts sat on that hilltop above the city, there were only*24,000Jews living in Palestine.1*Browse through the second-hand bookshops of Beirut or Jerusalem, however, and the ghosts begin to appear. In*1835, for example, just five years after Roberts had sketched the recumbent city of Jerusalem, we find the French writer Alphonse de Lamartine returning from a visit there to recommend to his readers in*VOYAGE TO THE ORIENT**that since Palestine did not really constitute a country, it presented remarkable opportunities for imperial or colonial projects.Within*60*years, the nineteenth-century fascination with the Middle East begins to lose its romantic edge, even for the most mundane travellers. In a broken-backed*1892*edition of John Murrays*HANDBOOK FOR TRAVELLERS IN SYRIA AND PALESTINE**which I bought in an antiquarian bookshop in west Beirut, a volume with a faded title in gold on its pale red cover, I discovered an item entitled Muslim Arabs. These people are, we are told, proud, fanatical and illiterate ... generally noble in bearing, polite in address, and profuse in hospitality; but they are regardless of truth, dishonest in their dealings and secretly immoral in their conduct. The Jews, on the other hand, were in the guidebooks opinion the most interesting people in the land ... The Jews of Palestine are foreigners. They have come from every country on earth ... of late years there has been a remarkable influx of Jews into Palestine, but the Turkish government are striving to hinder their settlement by every means in their power.This is cold-blooded business indeed, just as was the Balfour Declaration of*1917*that gave Britains support to a Jewish homeland providing that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine. The equally earnest Anglo-French Declaration of*1918*promising the Arabs of former Ottoman colonies their independence if they supported the Allies against the Turks fell into much the same category, although it was not a promise that was intended to be kept. As Balfour himself said the following year, in Palestine we do not propose even to go through the form of consulting the wishes of the present inhabitants of the country. So far as Balfour was concerned, Zionism was of far profounder import than the desire and prejudices of the*700,000*Arabs who now inhabit that ancient land [of Palestine]3*The slaughter on the Somme and at Passchendaele had helped to bring about these conflicting pledges, just as a far more terrible massacre would in the second great European war virtually guarantee the creation of the Jewish state in Palestine. Against these historical profanities, the descendants of those colourfully dressed figures in Roberts lithographs stood no hope...."  Robert Fisk - The Keys to Palestine


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## sealadaigh (Jun 4, 2013)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> > KevinWestern said:
> ...



not really. religion may have its' indigenous origins to a region but the practitioners of that religion are not, as a rule, indigenous. "homelands" are based upon ethnicity. i find it hard to believe that there is a strong ethnic/genetic connection between a black ethiopean jew and a blonde haired, blue eyed russian jew.


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## MHunterB (Jun 4, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> The ethnic cleansing of Palestine, part II
> 
> by*Ben White*on July 29, 2010*85. "Mondoweiss has already*reported*the*demolition*of Bedouin Palestinian homes in an-Naqab in the south of Israel. Neve Gordon and*others*have correctly*contextualised the events in terms of the wider strategic aims of 'Judaising' the Negev.The following*story*appeared in Ha'aretz the same day as armed forced and bulldozers razed Arab homes. The ethnic cleansing of Palestine, part II | Mondoweiss



Quotes from Mondoscheisse aren't going to convince anyone of anything except that the poster who insists on pretending that's a reliable source of information is a lunatic ideologue.

Now, that 'proof' that Jews never purchased land in Israel as you claimed?  Where's that?


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## Michelle420 (Jun 4, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > reabhloideach said:
> ...



Religion would not make a difference to me, so you can just ask should any group have a right to displace another group of people if that displaced group was there first?

Then we have to get philosophical and define what "rights" does any group or person have in originating a right to claim something as solely and exclusively their own and how can they establish that right without a collective group effort to protect it, they would need a tribe, government willing to share and protect those rights.

Territory is a human construction made to establish order and a way to be civilized in the hierarchy of needs, all human beings have the same basic needs. 

Nobody really has a right to claim the earth as their own, humans are just inherently greedy it seems.


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## MHunterB (Jun 4, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > GHook93 said:
> ...



One needn't find it easy to believe for a thing to be true.  WEB DuBois and his wife had a blonde, blue-eyed daughter.  She died while they were living in the South, because she became very ill.  Her parents knew their daughter could get better care at a 'white' hospital - but they also knew they'd likely be charged with kidnapping if they tried to bring her for treatment.  A terrible situation : ((

I notice a certain group of people always like to 'illustrate' with blond/e 'Russian' Jews......I've got a great many relatives who are very Slavic in looks:  short slight brunets.  The 'Rus' are another ethnic group entirely - half-Scandinavian like the famed 'Varangian Guard'.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 4, 2013)

"The first Palestinian exodusThis territorial expansion by the use of force resulted in a large-scale exodus of refugees from the areas of hostilities. Palestinians allege that this was part of a deliberate policy to displace Palestinian Arabs to make room for immigrants, and quote Zionist sources, including Herzl:"We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our own country."Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly".*69/Herzl's plans in respect of the size of the Jewish State are cited as another item of evidence of this policy. Describing a 1939 meeting with Churchill, Weizmann writes:"... (I) thanked him for his unceasing interest in Zionist affairs. I said: 'You have stood at the cradle of the enterprise. I hope you will see it through'. Then I added that after the war we would want to build up a State of three or four million Jews in Palestine. His answer was: 'Yes, I quite agree with that'."*70/Palestinians also charge that the terrorizing of the civilian population through military or psychological means was an integral part of this policy of expelling Palestinians, and again cite Zionist writings:"... Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both peoples together in this country ... We shall not achieve our goal of being an independent people with the Arabs in this small country. The only solution is a Palestine, at least western Palestine (west of the Jordan river) without Arabs ... And there is no other way than to transfer the Arabs from here to the neighbouring countries, to transfer all of them; not one village, not one tribe, should be left ... Only after this transfer will the country be able to absorb the millions of our own brethren. There is no other way out;..."*71/One of the most notorious cases of the terrorizing of civilian population occurred, according to Palestinian and other sources, in April 1948 at Deir Yassin, a village near Jerusalem, situated in territory assigned to the Jewish State by the partition resolution. A former Israeli military governor of Jerusalem writes:"We suffered a reverse of a different nature on April 9 when combined Etzel and Stern Gang units mounted a deliberate and unprovoked attack on the Arab village of Deir Yassin on the western edge of Jerusalem. There was no reason for the attack. It was a quiet village, which had denied entry to the volunteer Arab units from across the frontier and which had not been involved in any attacks on Jewish areas. The dissident groups chose it for strictly political reasons. It was a deliberate act of terrorism ..."... Women and children had not been given time enough to evacuate the village,...."    The Origins and Evolution of the Palestine Problem - CEIRPP, DPR study, part II: 1947-1977 (30 June 1979)


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## MHunterB (Jun 4, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> > Israel became a Kingdom in 1020 B.C.
> ...



That bolded sentence certainly appears to be an argument that 'Palestinians' are not a 'nation' after all.

As to the 'respect the values and styles of other cultures instead of assuming that your culture's style is superior' - that is spectacular in its irony.  Kudos!


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## sealadaigh (Jun 4, 2013)

drifter said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...



jews are a religious group. that is the basis of their claim.

so you think every group based upon whatever has a right to stake a claim on any land they have inhabited at some arbitrary point in time that they choose.

it was not the palestinians that chased those adherents of judaism out of the holy land nor was it the palestinians who slaughtered millions of jews in the mid 1900s, but they are the ones paying the price.

i no longer think you are seeking education on the issue as you claim. i think you are avoiding questions, dismissing arguments, and pursueing an agenda.

i have yet to see anyone come up with a general rule that applies to all people that accurately reflects the creation of israel. that is what equal treaatment is all about.


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## Uncensored2008 (Jun 4, 2013)

flowery said:


> Says who ????
> 
> Please don't twist the truth
> 
> ...



Ah the idiocy of Nazis...

No Adolf, the Canaanites were not Arabs and there were no Arabs in the region at the time. 

The Arabs migrated from North Africa during the 2nd to 4th century AD. As the power of Rome waned, the Africans were able to waltz in and take over. The Medes were virtually wiped out, the Persians were driven back to Iran, Babylon had been sacked by Rome and never recovered, it was ripe for the taking. So the Arabs from Libya, Morocco, Egypt, et al, fled the droughts that were decimating North Africa.

The Assyrian, Mede, Persian, and Greek populations were all genetically Caucasian. The Arabs are African genetically. They were not a significant presence until Rome withdrew.


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## Michelle420 (Jun 4, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > reabhloideach said:
> ...



I think we have enough food, materials for shelter and water for everyone and because human beings are greedy they form tribes, governments and religions as a social construct to monopolize territories, it's seems to be inherent greed in humans.

Any opinion on which group is right is going to be bias.

The bias lies in which groups socially constructed story you adhere to. 

Those stories may come to you from family traditions, patriotism, politics, religions, friends or some momental past experience that left an impact or imprint forming an allegiance to some group or cause.

If you strip away bias and indoctrination from the equation, all humans have the same basic needs and if one has a right to a basic need all humans have the same rights to basic needs.


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## sealadaigh (Jun 4, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> reabhloideach said:
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> > peach174 said:
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"what *WE* define". i think of the palestinians as a people. nation is an ambiguous word and perhaps i used it erroneously but many people think of nations as states. i do.

there is no red sox nation. there are red sox fans...

so, you think a religious group of non-specific ethnicity has a right to form a state on a land that they inhabited at an arbitrary point in time?


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## sealadaigh (Jun 4, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> reabhloideach said:
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> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
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marg, need i remind you that you are one of the main proponents that jews are a religious group and not an ethnic group.

all you really are doing in the last paragraph is making my point. i don't give a fig what ethnicity a particular jew is. it seems, however, that israelis do.

it rreally does seem like people are avoiding the question about making a statement in general terms reflecting th creation o israel that would apply to all people.

let's call it m"the mormon conundrum".


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## sealadaigh (Jun 4, 2013)

drifter said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
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so you are a utopian, egalitarian communist?

opinions may be biased but i think principles need not reflect bias. suggesting that all men should be treated in an equal manner is right. that is my bias.


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## Michelle420 (Jun 4, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > reabhloideach said:
> ...



No I am none of those things, I was just answering your question from a philosophical standpoint.

All humans should treat each other with respect and honor the human right to have basic needs met.

Is owning a particular strip of any given land a basic human need if there is plenty of land to go around for everyone on this planet ?

What is the principle of this situation from your point of view?


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jun 4, 2013)

drifter said:


> reabhloideach said:
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> 
> > drifter said:
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Israel is less than 1% of the Middle East.


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## Michelle420 (Jun 4, 2013)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> drifter said:
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> > reabhloideach said:
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Very small percent there


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## peach174 (Jun 4, 2013)

flowery said:


> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> > Israel became a Kingdom in 1020 B.C.
> ...




The Quran, The Torah and the Bible all say that the land is Israel's and that the Israelis would return again to their promised land in the end times.
EDITOR'S CHOICE: Quran explicitly refers to the return of the Jews to the Land of Israel before the Last Judgment


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## MHunterB (Jun 4, 2013)

The Origins and Evolution of the Palestine Problem - CEIRPP, DPR study, part II: 1947-1977 (30 June 1979) 


British attempts to resolve the issue by the partition of Palestine into *two independent States* or by relinquishing the mandate with the consequent emergence of *an independent unified Palestine* had failed in the face of *the opposition of the Palestinian Arabs *to the former plan and of *the Zionist movement *to the latter.

I think the above quote from the UN-affiliated site explains the problem  And I think that nothing much has changed in the years since.


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## MHunterB (Jun 4, 2013)

The Arabs (not 'the Palestinans': this means the 'Arab League')  opposed a State for the Jews of any size, in any location within the Mandate (which originally included what's now Jordan, and indeed the largest 'ethnic' group in Jordan are Palestinians and NOT 'refugee' ones, either).

The Zionists movement opposed a "unified" state which was going to include the land which they had PURCHASED.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jun 4, 2013)

peach174 said:


> flowery said:
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The Canaanites were not Arabs.  After Mohammed's death, the Arabs came out from Arabia (hence the name), and conquered the Middle East and North Africa.  The Canaanites were mostly destroyed, in ancient times, by Joshua and Deborah the Prophetess.


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## ThirdTerm (Jun 4, 2013)

Israel's legitimacy is based on the Balfour Declaration of 1917, which promised the establishment of Palestine as a national home for the Jewish people, and British Zionists had significant influence on British foreign policy at the time and they lobbied for the establishment of a Jewish colony and recruited Churchill as the most ardent supporter of the Zionist cause. Most subject peoples of the British Empire gained independence from the 1940s to the 1960s with the collapse of the British Empire and Israel was a settler colony similar to America and Canada and the status of the Israelis is comparable to white Americans.


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## Uncensored2008 (Jun 4, 2013)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Israel is less than 1% of the Middle East.



Yet it still offends Muslims that it exists.

One grain of sand not under Muslim control is more than Islam will tolerate.

That is what this whole thing comes down to.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 4, 2013)

peach174 said:


> flowery said:
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> > peach174 said:
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There is no "land of Israel" in the Bible.  That is all a lie of Zionism.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 4, 2013)

ThirdTerm said:


> Israel's legitimacy is based on the Balfour Declaration of 1917, which promised the establishment of Palestine as a national home for the Jewish people, and British Zionists had significant influence on British foreign policy at the time and they lobbied for the establishment of a Jewish colony and recruited Churchill as the most ardent supporter of the Zionist cause. Most subject peoples of the British Empire gained independence from the 1940s to the 1960s with the collapse of the British Empire and Israel was a settler colony similar to America and Canada and the status of the Israelis is comparable to white Americans.



But Britian never had sovereignty rights in the land.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 4, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> The Arabs (not 'the Palestinans': this means the 'Arab League')  opposed a State for the Jews of any size, in any location within the Mandate (which originally included what's now Jordan, and indeed the largest 'ethnic' group in Jordan are Palestinians and NOT 'refugee' ones, either).
> 
> The Zionists movement opposed a "unified" state which was going to include the land which they had PURCHASED.



There was no purchase of the land of Israel. When the Partition Plan was voted on, Zionists owned only 6 percent of the land and made up less than one third of the population. UN documents confirm these facts. And ethnic cleansing of Arabs from villages began months before Arab nations entered the war.


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## MHunterB (Jun 4, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> > The Arabs (not 'the Palestinans': this means the 'Arab League')  opposed a State for the Jews of any size, in any location within the Mandate (which originally included what's now Jordan, and indeed the largest 'ethnic' group in Jordan are Palestinians and NOT 'refugee' ones, either).
> ...



Show me the 'UN documents'.....at least link to them.   And you've also pretended that any 'ethnic cleansing' was only done to the Arabs......

The noises you make about 'Zionist lies and propaganda' are drowned out by your own lies and propaganda, sherrikins .....


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## Michelle420 (Jun 4, 2013)

Uncensored2008 said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Israel is less than 1% of the Middle East.
> ...



That seems pretty greedy if that is what this is all about.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 4, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
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"The transformation of Mandated Palestine At the culmination of a quarter century of Mandatory rule, Palestine had been radically transformed in demographic terms. The population of Palestine had increased tremendously - from the 750,000 of the 1922 census to almost 1,850,000 at the end of 1946 - an increase of nearly 250 per cent. During this period the Jewish population had soared from 56,000 after the First World War to 84,000 in 1922 to 608,000 in 1946, an increase of about 725 per cent.*141/ From constituting less than a tenth of the population in Palestine after the First World War, the Jewish community in 1947 constituted nearly a third. A good part of this was due to births within Palestine but legal immigration alone accounted for over 376,000, with illegal immigration being estimated at another 65,000 - a total of 440,000.*142/ This Jewish population was primarily urban - about 70 per cent to 75 per cent in and around the cities of Jerusalem, Jaffa-Tel Aviv and Haifa.*143/Land holding patterns had also changed considerably. From the 650,000 dunums held by Jewish organizations in 1920, of the total land area of 26 million dunums, the figure at the end of 1946 had reached 1,625,000 dunums - an increase of about 250 per cent*144/ and Jewish settlement had displaced large numbers of Palestinian Arab peasants. Even so, this area represented only 6.2 per cent of the total area of Palestine and 12 per cent of the cultivable land." *145/  http://unispal.un.org/unispal.nsf/5...aeac80e740c782e4852561150071fdb0?OpenDocument


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## Jroc (Jun 4, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> MHunterB said:
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Israel is there get used to it hater


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 4, 2013)

drifter said:


> Uncensored2008 said:
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> > ForeverYoung436 said:
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It is not what it is about at all. Its about millions unlawfully displaced from their lands and homes that includes Palestinian Christians.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 4, 2013)

Jroc said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > MHunterB said:
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There are over 6 million Palestinians in Palestine going nowhere and soon they will be in the majority if they are not already. Get used to that, Zionist


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## MHunterB (Jun 5, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > Uncensored2008 said:
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The even larger number of Arab Jews 'unlawfully displaced from their lands and homes' somehow never penetrates the consciousness of  those promoting themselves as "people of conscience".    

What so amazes me about that 'blind spot' is that Israel is repeatedly alleged to have had a 'policy' and 'laws' specifically to remove nonJews.  And yet in country after country, the Jewish citizenry were* legislated* out of their possessions (meaning there were overt laws and policies, the 'smoking gun' not present in Israeli law) , property and rights - beggared and cast out.  But somehow the 'humanitarian people of conscience' deny that this ever happened:  they refuse to disuss the fact that Arab League nations conspired to eject their long-established Jewish citizenry (who were not attacking anyone!) ???

Then there's the idiotic noise made by those same 'pacifist humanitarians "But you can't punish the Palestinians for what they didn't do"......

How is it 'punishing the Palestinans' to merely acknowledge the abuses against Arab Jews by Arab Muslims?   That certainly would make no sense - except of course for the Jews pushed out of their homes in the Mandate by Arabs (Jordan will have to answer for its ethnic cleansing of 'East Jerusalem')  I have made NO suggestion about what I think 'should' be done to right that wrong - but taking it out on the Palestnian people would be a really stupid move, and wrong.

I would like to see the Arab Jews have a chance to be compensated for what the nations of Egypt, Syria, Iraq and others have stolen from them.  There is no point in a 'right of return' since nobody in or out of those nations is willing to let the Jews have their homes and businesses back - and more importantly, no other nation on earth is willing to even try to guarantee their safety in such a hostile environment.

If it was wrong to 'ethnically cleanse' the Palestinians, it was equally as wrong to do the same to the Arab Jews.  

If Palestininan refugees deserve compensation, then so do Arab Jewish refugees - whether they are beggars or billionaires doesn't matter. 

So long as Arab League nations which ethnically cleansed their Jewish citizenry insist on making noises about a 'Palestinian right of return' - one would expect to see their governments FIRST act promptly and generously to compensate the refugees who they themselves created.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 5, 2013)

Palestinians are not responsible for what Arab countries outside Palestine did. Ethnic cleansing in Palestine has been by Israel.


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## flowery (Jun 5, 2013)

peach174 said:


> flowery said:
> 
> 
> > peach174 said:
> ...




What ???

Nothing in the Qura'n said that the land is Israel's ,,,!! where did you get that
Yes they are mentioned about them  and their history in Holly Qur'an but there is no mentioned that they  have the right to take Palestine or  they are indigenous to the Holy Land ,, 

never


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## flowery (Jun 5, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> flowery said:
> 
> 
> > Jroc said:
> ...




I don't know the meaning of "skunky" but I assume it is a bad word  
anyway, English is not my native language so surely I need to modify my words sometimes
I want them to be exactly just as I believe in and this is not to be a shamed of
and I assume there are a NOTE is written down tells that I have changed the reply
So everyone can see and this is not something I  hided from anyone


about the "holocaust" it is uncertain event, that how I believe
and even If I believe in it, what is the point of it, it is not the main issue here

and even ,, If the "holocaust" was certain event, then  Jewish people should be one of the nations that should carry the highest amount of  mercy feelings of compassion as  they have been subjected to such cruelty
But 
watch to what they are doing now
they make the "Holocaust" in every inch in a stolen land from parents and grandparents
They are killing children
steal lands
And tortured people

I will not feel sympathy toward Israel or cry for what happened to them
because they stole the land of Palestine, and killed and displaced people , in the name of "religion" and tears of "Holocaust"


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 5, 2013)

The difference between the conquest of America and the conquest of Palestine is that back then it was not illegal to "win" land but now it is. Israel has never won any land because it is illegal to do so.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jun 5, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> The difference between the conquest of America and the conquest of Palestine is that back then it was not illegal to "win" land but now it is. Israel has never won any land because it is illegal to do so.



If it is wrong now (or 100 years ago), then it was wrong then (300 years ago), Mr. Hypocrite.  Move back to Scandinavia.


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 5, 2013)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > The difference between the conquest of America and the conquest of Palestine is that back then it was not illegal to "win" land but now it is. Israel has never won any land because it is illegal to do so.
> ...



It has always been wrong. But it has only been illegal for about a hundred years.


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## Uncensored2008 (Jun 5, 2013)

drifter said:


> That seems pretty greedy if that is what this is all about.



It's not greed, it's bigotry. 

The Warlord Muhammad said that all lands that have been conquered by Muslims must forever remain under Muslim control, that there can be no peace unless the Kafirum are slaughtered and the Dhimmis accept Islamic domination with willing submission.

This leads to the position that not one grain of sand will be under the dominion of Infidels. It is this bigotry that drive PF and Sherri and the rest of the Muslims to reject peace, regardless of terms. Islam is the religion of war and will wage perpetual war rather than tolerate what they view as Muslim land being under the control of Infidels.


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## Michelle420 (Jun 5, 2013)

flowery said:


> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> > flowery said:
> ...



which book is older?


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 5, 2013)

drifter said:


> flowery said:
> 
> 
> > peach174 said:
> ...



None of the books speak of "the Land of Israel."   That is a Zionist myth you are buying into.


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## flowery (Jun 5, 2013)

Uncensored2008 said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > That seems pretty greedy if that is what this is all about.
> ...






Why did not write other texts that tells the Non Muslims' and dhimmis have rights?
Why did not you write texts that tell us that it is forbidden to kill them?
or beat them, or steal their money, or even make scratch on their body without any reason?
why didn't you write that there are penalty for any Muslim who kill non Muslims?


If you want to explain the texts of the Qur'an and the words of the Prophet Muhammad
You must understand the era in which Islam began
And the circumstances that were around him
Even your circumstances , 
Christians were in bad situation with control of the church and the tyranny of governments
They lived under the shadow of capitalism and communism
Islam came to make people worship the God instead of worshiping people
Plus ,, It is not compulsory to converted to Islam

It is Forbidden to kill people, and that's what we learned from the Qur'an and Hadith
Whether they are Muslims or infidels or dhimmis
Every human being has rights

And the Lord will punish a Muslim who dared kill the other
Except those who are attacking
It is called (Self-defense) , which is not forbidden at all

Britain , America, Israel, Russia, China, France and many other countries have killed unlawfully
Some countries still do it, they kill Muslims and destroy Mosques 
Prophet Muhammad order Muslims if they want to open countries and spread Islam , he ordered them not to kill women, or children or priest , not to destroy Churches or any place that they worship their God in, and plus gave to non-Muslims their rights to choose any religion they want.

Why didn't you write all these, they are facts by the way.


Islam freed some countries from slavery and did not force them to be Muslim and gave them their rights. He did not even deprive them from practicing their religion, either if they were Christians or Jews or even without religion

We spread peace in the entire country that have been opened
The Kings who were rules your countries in the past were stealing from nations and impose taxes

This is the testimony of non-Muslim Westerners themselves about Prophet Mohammad peace be upon him

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyXn7ftUYT8]what did they say about prophet Muhammad : PBUH - YouTube[/ame]


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 5, 2013)

Scottish Church votes to ignore Israel in campaigns

By*Jonathan Kalmus, May 31, 2012. "Follow The JC on TwitterThe Scottish Church will no longer consider the Israeli perspective when campaigning on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, its General Assembly has voted.Delegates in Edinburgh at the annual conference of Scotland&#8217;s largest church, which has over 450,000 members, overwhelmingly voted against a motion to &#8220;ensure a proper balance between the Israeli and Palestinian perspectives&#8221; at a session on Gaza.It followed the adoption of a special report and vote instructing the church to lobby the British government to &#8220;end the inhumane blockade of Gaza and related violence&#8221;. The report suggested the church may stop support for a two-state solution, but also condemned rocket attacks on Israel.When urged by a delegate to reverse the one-sided approach at last Monday&#8217;s assembly meeting of the Church and Society Council, convenor Rev Ian Galloway said: &#8220;There could never be a truly balanced view between Israel and Palestine&#8221;.The vote means future reports and resource material produced by the church for its members would not present an Israeli narrative. " Scottish Church votes to ignore Israel in campaigns | The Jewish Chronicle. This Christian church rejects the Israeli Narrative and it is a rejection of Zionism.


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## Michelle420 (Jun 5, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...



Yeah it's wrong for anyone to do.

It does seem very greedy though that the muslim population outnumbers the jewish population and they want to dominate every inch of land.

They should just get over it.


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## Michelle420 (Jun 5, 2013)

flowery said:


> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...



But Muhammed came after Jesus correct?

I mean if a modern day Prophet was here and declared both sides wrong does that supersede everything?

I am not religious, so frankly I don't care about the religious reason from either side.

That said, if you look at a map the muslims pretty much own and live in all surrounding areas. 

So they can give a little piece of land up.


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## Michelle420 (Jun 5, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > flowery said:
> ...



I asked questions.

You replied with this?

Which book  is older>?

Are you religious at all?


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 5, 2013)

drifter said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



There were and are a  people called Palestinian in Palestine and they are the indigenous people of Palestine. Most are Muslim, some are Christians. The conflict is all about their rights in the land and to live free of Occupation in their homeland. I actually believe at this point they would be willing to accept one state, but they want equal rights and the right to vote and their basic human rights respected.


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## Michelle420 (Jun 5, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> drifter said:
> 
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> > MHunterB said:
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Sounds reasonable, do they want the same for the other side?


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 5, 2013)

drifter said:


> flowery said:
> 
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> > Uncensored2008 said:
> ...



The Palestinian refugees lost all of their land not just a piece of it.


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## Michelle420 (Jun 5, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > flowery said:
> ...



How many Palestinians are there and where do they all live right now?


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 5, 2013)

drifter said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
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The vast majority of Palestinians live outside their original homes.


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## Michelle420 (Jun 5, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
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So could all of the palestinians fit in that small strip of land or would some still have to live elsewhere>?


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 5, 2013)

drifter said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...



The "Land of Israel",  there is no such thing in the Bible, except references to a short lived kingdom that existed for a short time over 2000 years ago. Example In the book of Tolbit, the phrase land of Israel appears, but only used there to specifically refer to the territory within that  kingdom of Israel. Tolbit 14:6 Another example, 2 Chronicles 34:7.  What I find is about 13 verses in the Bible, Old Testament,  using that term and it was only used to refer to that short lived kingdom that ended over 2000 years ago. Where spoken of in The New Testament it is a reference to a people, not land. That explains why Bible maps for hundreds of years call the land Palestine.


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## Michelle420 (Jun 5, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
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Sherri, I did not ask about "the land of israel" at all I asked you which book is older.

If you don't know just say so.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 5, 2013)

What Zionism did, which was created in the 1800s, was take this Colonialist idea of settling in Palestine  and use religion to get support of the world for their Imperialistic designs.


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## Michelle420 (Jun 5, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> What Zionism did, which was created in the 1800s, was take this Colonialist idea of settling in Palestine  and use religion to get support of the world for their Imperialistic designs.




So?  

Historically who hasn't?


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## Uncensored2008 (Jun 5, 2013)

flowery said:


> Why did not write other texts that tells the Non Muslims' and dhimmis have rights?
> Why did not you write texts that tell us that it is forbidden to kill them?



You may not kill Zimmis PROVIDED they submit with willing submission and pay Jizya. You will kill Kafir with no regard. (Kafir are those who reject Allah - Atheists and Idolators basically,)



> or beat them, or steal their money, or even make scratch on their body without any reason?
> why didn't you write that there are penalty for any Muslim who kill non Muslims?



That you have rules on how to treat those you enslave does not make them anything other than slaves.



> If you want to explain the texts of the Qur'an and the words of the Prophet Muhammad
> You must understand the era in which Islam began
> And the circumstances that were around him
> Even your circumstances ,



The Warlord Muhammad was a brutal man of a brutal time. Yet other religions have grown to accept peace, not so with Islam.

Islam remains a violent religion that embraces only war and conquest.

And because of this, there can be no peace with Israel. 



> Christians were in bad situation with control of the church and the tyranny of governments
> They lived under the shadow of capitalism and communism
> Islam came to make people worship the God instead of worshiping people
> Plus ,, It is not compulsory to converted to Islam



Jews and Christians ALONE are permitted to live as slaves, with the yoke of Jizya.

For an agnostic such as myself, Islam would demand I convert or would kill me. 



> It is Forbidden to kill people, and that's what we learned from the Qur'an and Hadith
> Whether they are Muslims or infidels or dhimmis
> Every human being has rights



It is far from forbidden, it is commanded that you kill the Kafir - as Islam has done with glee for 1500 years.  Millions and millions butchered in India. The sea of blood and misery as Islam swept to the doors of Europe like the plague it is.



> And the Lord will punish a Muslim who dared kill the other
> Except those who are attacking
> It is called (Self-defense) , which is not forbidden at all



The Koran commands that Kafirum be murdered in the name of your god, Allah. (al-Ilah) The Warlord Muhammed murdered thousands and directed the murder of millions. Murder is the only gift bequeathed by Muhammad, well - misery was attached. 



> Britain , America, Israel, Russia, China, France and many other countries have killed unlawfully
> Some countries still do it, they kill Muslims and destroy Mosques
> Prophet Muhammad order Muslims if they want to open countries and spread Islam , he ordered them not to kill women, or children or priest , not to destroy Churches or any place that they worship their God in, and plus gave to non-Muslims their rights to choose any religion they want.



Yet the Warlord Muhammad murdered women, when he wasn't handing them to his hoards to be raped, he murdered children and Rabbis.

{The brutal death of Umm Qirfa also refutes this myth.  So do the women who were killed in battle (Bukhari 52:257), when Muhammads men attacked a town or tribe  although his preference was that women be captured for sexual servitude rather than killed.

One account not only speaks of the killing of a defenseless woman, but also refutes the broader misconception that Islam is against attacking others for reasons other than self-defense:}

_ We went with the apostle on the raid of Dhatul-Riqa of Nakhl and a man killed the wife of one of the polytheists.  When the apostle was on his way back, her husband, who had been away, returned and heard the news of her death.  He swore that he would not rest until he had taken vengeance. (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 665)
_



> Why didn't you write all these, they are facts by the way.
> 
> Islam freed some countries from slavery and did not force them to be Muslim and gave them their rights. He did not even deprive them from practicing their religion, either if they were Christians or Jews or even without religion



Freed them to be slaves of Islam.



> We spread peace in the entire country that have been opened
> The Kings who were rules your countries in the past were stealing from nations and impose taxes



Islam spreads death and misery - it is the only payload of Islam.


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## MHunterB (Jun 5, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Palestinians are not responsible for what Arab countries outside Palestine did. *Ethnic cleansing in Palestine has been by Israel*.



Our Jerusalem.com -

This article is 'sourced' so one can refer to the original documentation.  It's *not* just an 'opinion' :  the quotes are real.

I'd like to see your 'proof' that not a single Jewish resident of the Mandate area was removed from their home by any Arab during the 20th C.    There was an entire spread in LIFE magazine showing the (Jordanian) Arab army forcing the Jewish residents out of  East Jerusalem in 1948:  I know you've seen those photos before, and I'm shocked that you could 'forget' them.  Those Jerusalemites had lived in what was then known as 'the Jewish Quarter' for centuries:  the UN-associated links you've put up document the heavy concentration of Jewish residence in/near Jerusalem, Haifa, and a few other cities.

I've ALREADY stated that I am *not* 'blaming' the Palestinians for what other Arabs did (although as a 'nationality', over half of Jordan was 'Palestinian' before 1948, so it wouldn't be totally baseless) - you need to pay attention and stop claiming I did that.  (I'll be reminding you of this the next time you try screeching that I've put words in your mouth.)

If the Israelis must pay for pushing out Palestinians - then what is the problem with the Palestinians paying for any people they MAY have pushed out, in theory?  Is that not fair?

 I never suggested and did not suppose that such numbers of evicted Jews would be a large one:  I don't think the 950,000 Arab Jews cast out from AL countries includes that number.  

 The AL nations which refused to allow the Pals to leave the 'camps' or get citizenship or hold jobs in their nations are *also* responsible for the collective misery of the Palestinian people.   How can anyone pretend to care about the Palestinians, yet refuse to acknowledge the AL nations continually pursuing policies to the detriment of the Palestinians time and again?


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## Uncensored2008 (Jun 5, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> The Palestinian refugees lost all of their land not just a piece of it.



Israel is less than 1% of the Middle East. You Muslims control the other 99%, yet that is not enough to satiate your greed and blood lust - such are the followers of Allah ne Ba'al.


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 5, 2013)

Uncensored2008 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > The Palestinian refugees lost all of their land not just a piece of it.
> ...



Why don't we throw everyone out of New Jersey and give it to Israel. After all, those people have the rest of the US to live in.


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## MHunterB (Jun 5, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> What Zionism did, which was created in the 1800s, was take this Colonialist idea of settling in Palestine  and use religion to get support of the world for their Imperialistic designs.



Pimping HAMAS' Satanic lies yet again, l'il sherrithang?  Throw some more pigshit on that Palestinian flag, why don't you?

While it's *possible* the British government did have some fantasies of that sort - the actual Zionists did not.  The whole idea of Zionism is NOT having to live at the sufferance of other nations:  I think everyone understands that colonies of Britain nor any other imperialist power were never 'free'.

What a peculiar addle-pated notion you've expressed above, sherrikins!   That Zionists would desire to be 'colonizers' for the same filthy bastards who refused to let Jews in to save them from Hitler's death camps!   

I can see you don't 'get it' even now:  it wasn't the perpetration of the Holocaust which crystallized the Zionist determination to establish a Jewish State.  *It was the overwhelming evidence of continual collusion among the democratic opponents of Nazi Germany to ignore and passively ASSIST that genocide* by denying 'humanitarian' entry into the US, Britain or any other nation which pretended to give a flying fig that Hitler was murdering Jews by the MILLIONS.

Back in the '30's when the Nazis pushed all Jews out of university teaching positions and civil service jobs (contrast that with Israel which has 'Palestinian' EMT's and cops and diplomats!) - the professors of England and the US *did not object*.  And when a few dozen of those professors were able to gain entry to the US - did their colleagues at Harvard and Princeton and the other Ivies welcome them?  

Here's an article on that bit of history:  Documentary on Jewish refugee professors to air | Amarillo.com | Amarillo Globe-News

Maybe that will help clue some in as to how ridiculous is the supposition that Zionism was intended by the Zionists to be a 'colonial extension' of European imperialism.


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## Michelle420 (Jun 5, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Hard to believe that Palestinians want to work things out and are peaceful when they can't even share land.

Seriously, there is no way the entire population of palestinians can migrate and live in that small strip of land.

So what you are really saying is that they shouldn't have to share anything.

If they want a real compromise they should open up the rest of the borders and share it with everyone.

But what we are discussing is the fact that although they reside everywhere else and there a small little strip of land they haven't dominated somehow the entire world has to feel sorry for them.


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## Hossfly (Jun 5, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


But, Tinnie, so many of those Arabs were tenant farmers under the Turks and then others came from their poor surrounding countries for the jobs that were made available to them by the Jews so how could they amassed all this property and wealth you want us to believe they had.  Perhaps you can tell us why the U.N. said that anyone in the area for only two years could be considered a refugee.  Two years in an area doesn't make anyone indigenous to any area and it would be very difficult for anyone to accumulate any sizeable assets in so short a time..  Maybe Tinnie thinks his relatives were so, so wealthy and the Jews robbed them of this wealth.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 5, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > Palestinians are not responsible for what Arab countries outside Palestine did. *Ethnic cleansing in Palestine has been by Israel*.
> ...



As I have said, Palestinians are not responsible for what Arab nations do, not what Arab nations did outside Palestine. They are not responsible for what Arab nations did inside Palestine either.


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## MHunterB (Jun 5, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



It's so difficult to discuss anything with one who refuses to read my words:  I've bolded some above to help you....

You made a claim, which is readily refuted by UN articles you yourself posted.  *There indeed were evictions of Jews by Palestinians - and if Israel must give compensation for evicting Palestinians unjustly, then Palestinians must likewise give compensation for an evictions of Jews which THEY  did.*

I'm not trying to hold the Palestinians responsible for anyone else's deeds - but they must be held responsible for their own deeds.  I cannot imagine why any supporter of Palestinians would wish to see them evade their proper responsibilities.


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## sealadaigh (Jun 5, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Uncensored2008 said:
> ...



you didn't answer his question.

hey, why don't we let the mennonites in southeastern PA expel non-amish and set up their own country seperaste from the USA. we could call it a two state solution.

you want to call P F a bigot just to discredit him then we will revisit the flagpole of your choice. i have never seen him say anything bigoted even when provoked.


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## sealadaigh (Jun 5, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > MHunterB said:
> ...



perhaps you will give us more information on the eviction of jews by the palestinians. all things being equal, i think those jews deprived of property by palestinians should be compensated.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 5, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



I have never heard of Palestinian evictions of Jews. The Palestinians have yet to even live in their own lands where they were not living occupied by others.


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## Michelle420 (Jun 5, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



Why don't the palestinians open up all the borders and offer to share it with everyone including the small strip of land ?

Which book came first bible or koran?

Who has special rules nobody, because all of involved are just human beings.

Why does it matter you personally who gets what piece of land?

I don't care which side gets it.

But I am curious, if the palestinians surround that strip of land and populate all surrounding areas how could they all squeeze into one area should they gain control?

How do you justify they should just monopolize every inch of land?

What's in it for you to defend such greed?

If there is some other reason, then why can't you, sherri or tin explain it better to me.

Can you explain why they can't open up all surrounding areas and just share land?

What's the problem?


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## Coyote (Jun 5, 2013)

drifter said:


> Why don't the palestinians open up all the borders and offer to share it with everyone including the small strip of land ?
> 
> <snip>
> 
> ...What's the problem?



They don't control their borders.


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## Michelle420 (Jun 5, 2013)

Coyote said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > Why don't the palestinians open up all the borders and offer to share it with everyone including the small strip of land ?
> ...



Well how are they going to control the small strip of land then>?


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## MHunterB (Jun 5, 2013)

"hey, why don't we let the mennonites in southeastern PA expel non-amish and set up their own country seperaste from the USA. we could call it a two state solution.
*Mennonites are not Amish, for one.  And - like the Amish - they are one of the 'Peace Churches' and explicitly renounce violence *even in self-defense*   That's my 'back yard' you're talking about, Lancaster Cty PA  and it's also where we plan to retire  : ))  

Another problem with you silly 'analogy' there is that the Israelis did *not* toss out all the 'Palestinians' in Israel:  about 20% of  Israelis are 'ethnic Palestinians'  who vote, hold elected office, and are fully-participating citizens.  The Christian minority community in Israel is *growing*:  it's the only one in all the ME which is growing.   *

you want to call P F a bigot just to discredit him then we will revisit the flagpole of your choice. i have never seen him say anything bigoted even when provoked. "
*Ah, sealie - how many times must it be explained to you?  Simply because you don't see a thing, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  No human's vision is perfect.  And you've yet to give Hoss or anyone else here a reason to place your perceptions of a situation over their own.

What credentials do you present us to justify such preference for your personal views?   Just what  - IYHO - makes your personal POV superior to someone else's?  *


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## Coyote (Jun 5, 2013)

drifter said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...



They don't.


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## toastman (Jun 5, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



Palestinians are not responsible for anything at all right? All of their problems are a  result of other nations/peoples actions, right?


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## Coyote (Jun 5, 2013)

toastman said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > MHunterB said:
> ...



She didn't say that Toast:
Palestinians are responsible for what Palestinians do.
Syrians are responsible for what Syrians do.
Iranians are responsible for what Iranians do.
Israeli's are responsible for what Israeli's do.

You get the trend here ya?


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## Michelle420 (Jun 5, 2013)

Coyote said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



So anyone can live in all of the surrounding areas without any kind of muslim stipulations.

If that's the case then people should just move to all the surrounding areas and popuilate it with some diversity.


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## toastman (Jun 5, 2013)

Coyote said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



I know, but I never once saw a pro-Palestinian here blame the Palestinians for ANYTHING concerning their issues


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## Coyote (Jun 5, 2013)

drifter said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...



What surrounding areas?



> If that's the case then people should just move to all the surrounding areas and popuilate it with some diversity.



What surrounding areas?


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## Coyote (Jun 5, 2013)

toastman said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



Oh, I don't know about that - they haven't done themselves any favors with civilian-targeted terrorism.  They're pursuing a better route with the UN.


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## Michelle420 (Jun 5, 2013)

Coyote said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Geography of Israel-Palestine. Maps Don't Lie!


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## Coyote (Jun 5, 2013)

drifter said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...



So....I'm not clear on the point you are attempting to make.  It sounds something like this:

Palestinians don't control their own borders therefore they should all move out into the other countries.

Correct?


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## flowery (Jun 5, 2013)

drifter said:


> which book is older?




which one you mean ,, 

the Holly Qur'an or the "*Twisted *Torah"


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## Michelle420 (Jun 5, 2013)

Coyote said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



No.

You said they don't control it.

I have no idea.

I was just asking questions.

The whole thing seems so weird to me.

I was just trying to understand why it's such a big deal to give one strip of land to people other then muslims.

If that isn't the issue then tell me  what the issue is from your point of view.


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## Michelle420 (Jun 5, 2013)

flowery said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > which book is older?
> ...



Yeah which book is older, do we have any archeology that dates them both?


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## sealadaigh (Jun 5, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> "hey, why don't we let the mennonites in southeastern PA expel non-amish and set up their own country seperaste from the USA. we could call it a two state solution.
> *Mennonites are not Amish, for one.  And - like the Amish - they are one of the 'Peace Churches' and explicitly renounce violence *even in self-defense*   That's my 'back yard' you're talking about, Lancaster Cty PA  and it's also where we plan to retire  : ))
> 
> Another problem with you silly 'analogy' there is that the Israelis did *not* toss out all the 'Palestinians' in Israel:  about 20% of  Israelis are 'ethnic Palestinians'  who vote, hold elected office, and are fully-participating citizens.  The Christian minority community in Israel is *growing*:  it's the only one in all the ME which is growing.   *
> ...



The Amish (/&#712;&#593;&#720;m&#618;&#643;/ AH-mish; Pennsylvania Dutch: Amisch, German: Amische), sometimes referred to as Amish Mennonites, are a group of traditionalist Christian church fellowships that form a subgroup of the Mennonite churches. 

Amish - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

i said "expel", not "toss out" but it is nice of you to acknowledge the right of return. if that 20% had fled, they would not be israeli citisens, they would be in fefugee camps.

and why the hell do you think i said "i have never seen" instead of P F has never said". P F is perhaps the least antagonistic posters on this board and for hoss to portray him as a bigot, hoss, comrade of roudy, MJB, prout vet...is absurd.

patience maggie. you are far to eager for the kill.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jun 5, 2013)

Coyote said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Not only terrorism, but refusing generous offers by Barak and Olmert, to keep this wound festering.


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## Uncensored2008 (Jun 5, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> Why don't we throw everyone out of New Jersey and give it to Israel. After all, those people have the rest of the US to live in.



Not similar at all, regardless of what your Imam told you.

IF the USA joined a coalition to conquer the world, as the Ottoman Empire did in WWI, AND the USA lost, thus falling under the dominion of the victors, as the Ottomans did. AND if the victors declared the colonial holdings of the USA forfeited as the the victorious Allies did with the Ottoman Empire, THEN colonial holdings such as Guam, Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands might be returned to the indigenous owners, as was done with Israel.


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## Hossfly (Jun 5, 2013)

drifter said:


> flowery said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...


A little history. Of course the Koran is thousands of years older, according to my Muslim neighbor.


Dead Sea Scrolls - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## sealadaigh (Jun 5, 2013)

toastman said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



i have frequently said their tactics sucked and they have no idea how to win this struggle. the only thing that keeps them in the game is that they have a just cause and will not give up on that cause.

they will learn how to win...sort of like bernadette devlin said..."Yesterday I dared to struggle. Today I dare to win."

Bernadette Devlin Quotes - BrainyQuote


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## MHunterB (Jun 5, 2013)

drifter said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...



The Hebrew Bible is older (by at least 200 years?) than the NT and both are older than the Qu'ran (written ca 690 CE).  I don't have exact dates, and of course some parts of the HB and NT each are older than others (of same Scripture).  The Qu'ran appears to have been written down all at once:  the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures were written down from earlier oral traditions over different periods of time.

That was the 'non-religious' answer, aiming for historical fact and ignoring religious doctrine.


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## MHunterB (Jun 5, 2013)

"Why don't we throw everyone out of New Jersey and give it to Israel. After all, those people have the rest of the US to live in."

I can only answer this joke with another joke.  

It's obvious this poster hasn't spent time in New Joisey:  all the tolls on all the bridges are paid by people *leaving* Jersey because they know people are willing to pay to get out!


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## Michelle420 (Jun 5, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> "Why don't we throw everyone out of New Jersey and give it to Israel. After all, those people have the rest of the US to live in."
> 
> I can only answer this joke with another joke.
> 
> It's obvious this poster hasn't spent time in New Joisey:  all the tolls on all the bridges are paid by people *leaving* Jersey because they know people are willing to pay to get out!



I still don't understand why sheery, reah, or tinmore even care what happens.

What's in it for them ?


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## flowery (Jun 5, 2013)

drifter said:


> flowery said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...




You know the answer very well ,, why do ask ?

If the theory is older or book is older , that doesn't mean they are  true
And if you think so ,, it means that you understand things in a wrong way

but ,,

this video will answer your question  :

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlA22NNFlDw]FULL - Is the Bible God's Word - Ahmed Deedat Vs. Jimmy Swaggart - YouTube[/ame]

or you can come here ,,

http://ahmed-deedat.net/wps/modules.php?name=IslamicMedia&choice=cat&catid=2



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdLSj0mLPkA]Is The Bible God's Word Question and Answer and Review Sheikh Ahmed Deedat - YouTube[/ame]

or you can go to this web site it will answer all your question about the Bible

http://ahmed-deedat.net/wps/modules.php?name=IslamicMedia&choice=cat&catid=2


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 5, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> "Why don't we throw everyone out of New Jersey and give it to Israel. After all, those people have the rest of the US to live in."
> 
> I can only answer this joke with another joke.
> 
> It's obvious this poster hasn't spent time in New Joisey:  all the tolls on all the bridges are paid by people *leaving* Jersey because they know people are willing to pay to get out!



I have been there. It is no prize.

It was once called the "stupid law" capital of the US. Since then, I think other states are trying to win that recognition.


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## Michelle420 (Jun 5, 2013)

flowery said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > flowery said:
> ...



flowery are you religious?

I am not. 

Thanks for at least answering the question from your point of view.


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## Coyote (Jun 5, 2013)

drifter said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...



Ah, well that's the fallacy.

It's not a religious issue.

It's an issue regarding the rights of self determination for two groups of people:  the Palestinians and the Israeli's.

The Israeli's have their strip and the Palestinians want their own strip.  The argument is borders and how the two nations will interact to guarantee sovereignty and security.

Why is giving Palestinians a state such a big deal?  Cause they are Muslim?


----------



## Michelle420 (Jun 5, 2013)

flowery said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > flowery said:
> ...



Why I ask the question is because I want a general consensus of which came first, since to both sides it seems to be important.

Historically in every country there has been tribal disputes over beliefs which were socially constructed to govern each tribe.

I just want to develop a timeline for each sides belief.


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 5, 2013)

Coyote said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Interesting that most Palestinians aren't pushing to get "a state."


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 5, 2013)

drifter said:


> flowery said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...



Why? This is not a religious conflict.


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## Michelle420 (Jun 5, 2013)

Coyote said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Don't they share it right now?

Those countries surrounding Israel are primarily muslim? mixed religions, jewish?

Do Palestinians control the 5 countries surrounding it and will they feel it a big deal to coop those countries with the Jews?

As of right now I am understanding the strip is already shared but palestinians just want the whole thing and want the jews to leave.

The jews share is begrudgingly, they really want the whole strip of land to themself.

But both share it.

What do you think the best solution is?


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## flowery (Jun 5, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> The Hebrew Bible is older (by at least 200 years?) than the NT and both are older than the Qu'ran (written ca 690 CE).  I don't have exact dates, and of course some parts of the HB and NT each are older than others (of same Scripture).  The Qu'ran appears to have been written down all at once:  the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures were written down from earlier oral traditions over different periods of time.
> 
> That was the 'non-religious' answer, aiming for historical fact and ignoring religious doctrine.




Yes, the Bible is older but ,,

that doesn't mean it is a true book,  there are evidence in the Bible tells that it is not the word of God

Scientific miracles in the Quran shows that this book is the right book
there is no  contradictions in it
Is never gone wrong
Although there are some people who want to raise suspicions, but scientists have answers for each suspicion

And you can search for scientific miracles in the Quran, which shows its sincerity


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## Michelle420 (Jun 5, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > flowery said:
> ...



Ok  so why does either side care about the land then?


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## Coyote (Jun 5, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...



What are they pushing for?

There is still more support than not for a two state solution: PSR poll 45 - Full analysis

Though less hope of success.


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## Michelle420 (Jun 5, 2013)

flowery said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> > The Hebrew Bible is older (by at least 200 years?) than the NT and both are older than the Qu'ran (written ca 690 CE).  I don't have exact dates, and of course some parts of the HB and NT each are older than others (of same Scripture).  The Qu'ran appears to have been written down all at once:  the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures were written down from earlier oral traditions over different periods of time.
> ...



In your opinion what is the reason for the land dispute?


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## Coyote (Jun 5, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > flowery said:
> ...



Exactly - the Palestinians included Muslims, Christians, Jews, and Druze though most Jews went with Israel.


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## Michelle420 (Jun 5, 2013)

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Since it is not religious tell me why they are fighting over this land for so long.


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## Coyote (Jun 5, 2013)

drifter said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...



For the Israeli's - it's a combination of religion, Zionism, and a desire to never again be a people without a home.  For the Palestinians - it's about ending the occupation by a foreign power.


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 5, 2013)

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



The biggest pro Palestinian campaign, BDS, does not mention a state and have no position on one or two states.

Then there are those who believe they already have a state but it is occupied.


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## Coyote (Jun 5, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



What does BDS push for?


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## flowery (Jun 5, 2013)

drifter said:


> Why don't the palestinians open up all the borders and offer to share it with everyone including the small strip of land ?




Do you mean share it with Israelis ?


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 5, 2013)

Coyote said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



The end of Israeli occupation and colonisation of Arab land, full equality for Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel, and respect for the right of return of Palestinian refugees.[1]

Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Michelle420 (Jun 5, 2013)

Coyote said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



So one side it's religious reasons and the other side it's just wanting property rights were palestinians there first historically? 

How did they get the power when 5 countries surrounding it are palestinian?


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## Michelle420 (Jun 5, 2013)

flowery said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > Why don't the palestinians open up all the borders and offer to share it with everyone including the small strip of land ?
> ...



Yeah with everyone including Israeli's.

Be like the united states and let everyone have their own personal freedoms.


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 5, 2013)

drifter said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...



Only Palestine had Palestinians before 1948.


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## Michelle420 (Jun 5, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



oh I see.


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## flowery (Jun 5, 2013)

drifter said:


> flowery said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...




There is a huge difference between two things:

Coming to my country , stay may be forever, have a descent job and study in our public schools , with good intention hurting no one

and 

invade my country , steal my lands, destroy my home & school and kill my family

Am I right  ?


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## Michelle420 (Jun 5, 2013)

flowery said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > flowery said:
> ...



Sure that makes sense stealing and killing is wrong and none of us should do it we should be loving and accepting of each other including our differences religiously, non-religiously and all other ways too.

If they went there for religious reasons, they must have been there at some point before 1948, otherwise it makes no sense why they just took the land.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jun 5, 2013)

drifter said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...



70% of the population of Jordan is Palestinian.  Queen Noor of that country is Palestinian.


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## MHunterB (Jun 5, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> > "Why don't we throw everyone out of New Jersey and give it to Israel. After all, those people have the rest of the US to live in."
> ...



See, I *knew* you weren't trying to be nice!

I think after Rep Cheryl Jacques proposed outlawing crossbows up here, that MA may have overtaken the 'Garden State'.......


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## Coyote (Jun 5, 2013)

drifter said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...



Actually, *that is not what I said.*  "it's a combination of religion, Zionism, and a desire to never again be a people without a home"

Israeli's are a diverse people and many of them are quite secular.  A big reason for them is to never again be a homeless people subject to another holocaust in a country where they are unwanted.  For others, religious Zionism drives them to complain what was the Israel of thousands of years ago.  

For the Palestinians - I did not state they were there "first" historically".  In fact, none of those groups really "first" as they are now defined.  The Jews were altered significantly by the diaspora, the Palestinians are comprised of many religions and a mixture of ethnic groups over successive migrations pf peoples.  For the most part, the Jews and Palestinians are really the same people.  

The Palestinians lost their lands to the Israeli occupation and there are many people still alive from that.  For them - it IS about land and an end to foreign occupation.



> How did they get the power when 5 countries surrounding it are palestinian?



By that logic, Israel is Palestinian.

France, Italy, Germany and Austria are all Swiss.


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## Uncensored2008 (Jun 5, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> The end of Israeli occupation and colonisation of Arab land, full equality for Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel, and respect for the right of return of Palestinian refugees.[1]
> 
> Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



And you Muslims will offer full equality for Jews in Jordan and Saudi Arabia, right?

Oh wait - it's a one sided coin - as always with you Muslims.


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## Uncensored2008 (Jun 5, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> Only Palestine had Palestinians before 1948.



No Arab was ever called a "Palestinian" before 1948.

Over 90% of "Palestinians" are descended from Egyptian or Jordanian stock within 3 generations.

You whole justification is utter bullshit - a complete fabrication. The simple fact is that you will not suffer Infidels to control what you view as Muslim land.


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## Coyote (Jun 5, 2013)

Uncensored2008 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > The end of Israeli occupation and colonisation of Arab land, full equality for Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel, and respect for the right of return of Palestinian refugees.[1]
> ...



Why don't you ask Tinmore directly rather than lumping him into "you Muslims"?


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## Michelle420 (Jun 5, 2013)

Coyote said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...





Coyote said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



So the jews never lived there before 1948?


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jun 5, 2013)

drifter said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...



They lived there in ancient times.  Their Temple was destroyed in 70 AD, and they were dispersed throughout the world.  They returned in the 1800's.


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## flowery (Jun 5, 2013)

drifter said:


> Since it is not religious tell me why they are fighting over this land for so long.




Because ,, Israel is a BIG thief 

It want to steal this land that belong to Palestinians (Muslims & Christians) in the name of religion and lies !


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## flowery (Jun 5, 2013)

drifter said:


> Why I ask the question is because I want a general consensus of which came first, since to both sides it seems to be important.
> 
> Historically in every country there has been tribal disputes over beliefs which were socially constructed to govern each tribe.
> 
> I just want to develop a timeline for each sides belief.




All lands belongs to the God
in the ancient time the Canaanies who are the Arabs live in this land and this written in their book,  Jewish Book "Old Bible"  ,, so historically this land belong to those who lived there for many years.


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## flowery (Jun 5, 2013)

drifter said:


> So the jews never lived there before 1948?





No


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jun 5, 2013)

flowery said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > Since it is not religious tell me why they are fighting over this land for so long.
> ...



You're the thief.  You stole 57 lands!!


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## Michelle420 (Jun 5, 2013)

Anyone care to post archeology or real artifacts datelining who was there first?


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## Coyote (Jun 5, 2013)

drifter said:


> [
> 
> 
> So the jews never lived there before 1948?



Who claimed that?


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## Coyote (Jun 5, 2013)

flowery said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > So the jews never lived there before 1948?
> ...



I don't think history will support you on that....


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## Coyote (Jun 5, 2013)

drifter said:


> Anyone care to post archeology or real artifacts datelining who was there first?



It is irrelevant as to "who was there first".  Chances are, there was yet another people earlier and more people later and those who are there now are not the same people that were there thousands of years ago but have been mixed with successive migrations.

It has no bearing on the issue but is a diversion.


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## Uncensored2008 (Jun 5, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Why don't you ask Tinmore directly rather than lumping him into "you Muslims"?



Ask him what?

PF is engaged in group think, as is the way of Muslims. Muslims do and think what the Clerics say. 

What about you, would you agree to a treaty that Arab Muslims (which is what "Palestinians" are) get full rights in Israel - the day that Jews get full rights in Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia..

I mean, you want things to be "fair" right? You're not just seeking the conquest of Israel to drive the Infidels out, right?

{Saudi Arabia is a glaring example of religious apartheid. The religious institutions from government clerics to judges, to religious curricula, and all religious instructions in media are restricted to the Wahhabi understanding of Islam, adhered to by less than 40% of the population. The Saudi government communized Islam, through its monopoly of both religious thoughts and practice. Wahhabi Islam is imposed and enforced on all Saudis regardless of their religious orientations. The Wahhabi sect does not tolerate other religious or ideological beliefs, Muslim or not. Religious symbols by Muslims, Christians, Jews and other believers are all banned. The Saudi embassy in Washington is a living example of religious apartheid. In its 50 years, there has not been a single non-Sunni Muslim diplomat in the embassy. The branch of Imam Mohamed Bin Saud University in Fairfax, Virginia instructs its students that Shia Islam is a Jewish conspiracy.[22]}

Freedom of religion in Saudi Arabia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Oh, but that's different because.... ALLAHU AKBAR...


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## Michelle420 (Jun 5, 2013)

Coyote said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > [
> ...




I was asking a question. 

I will be asking lots of them.


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## Uncensored2008 (Jun 5, 2013)

flowery said:


> All lands belongs to the God
> in the ancient time the Canaanies who are the Arabs live in this land and this written in their book,  Jewish Book "Old Bible"  ,, so historically this land belong to those who lived there for many years.



I see you refer to your god as "al-Ilah," or in Hebrew, "Ba'al." 

Good for you, so many Muslims try and pretend Allah is the Hebrew/Christian god.


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## Michelle420 (Jun 5, 2013)

Coyote said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone care to post archeology or real artifacts datelining who was there first?
> ...



It's irrelevant to you.

But I wanted to know, is that ok?


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## Coyote (Jun 5, 2013)

drifter said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...



Well...considering it came out of the blue, non-sequitor so to speak, I kind of wondered...

It's a question that had no relevance to the post you were answering


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## Michelle420 (Jun 5, 2013)

Coyote said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Coyote, I am learning about the issue, I am going to ask a lot of questions. 

If you find them irrelevant feel free not to respond.

I ask because I want to know each sides opinion instead of just reading wikipedia.

It is something I am interested in knowing , the personal viewpoints and opinions of each side.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jun 5, 2013)

drifter said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...



OK, Hashem promised the land to Abraham.  So the Jews (called the Hebrews at that time), conquered the land from the idol-worshipping Canaanites.  David established a great kingdom there, and Solomon built the Temple.  The wicked Romans destroyed the Temple in 70 AD, and drove the Jews out.  For two thousand years, Jews experienced pogroms, blood libels, inquisitions, pogroms and the Holocaust.  Meanwhile, the savage Arabs took over Israel and totally neglected the land, as Mark Twain attests to.  In the 1800's the Jews finally returned and made the desert bloom.


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## Uncensored2008 (Jun 5, 2013)

drifter said:


> Anyone care to post archeology or real artifacts datelining who was there first?



From an anthropological stand point, this is all absurd. The Arabs that we know now didn't migrate to the Middle East until the 2nd through 4th century AD. The Medes, Persians, Assyrians, Caucasians all, fought nearly perpetual war amongst themselves and the Greeks, until Rome marched in a defeated all of them. When Rome declined, the power vacuum allowed the North African people to invade in a very similar fashion as the Mexicans are doing to America. They squatted and interbred with the decimated indigenous populations and became the dominate ethnic group. Muhammad united them under the Cult of Islam, he and the Caliphs murdered virtually all remaining Caucasians.

Arabs are new comers to the Middle East.

On the other hand, the Ashkenazi Jews were not originally from the Middle East either. The original Hebrews were, but not that many of them survived. Most modern Jews descend from Ashkenazi stock.

Who was there first? People long since wiped out.


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## Michelle420 (Jun 5, 2013)

Uncensored2008 said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone care to post archeology or real artifacts datelining who was there first?
> ...



So from that stand point nobody really has any "right" to the land.

So for either side to say so is moot.

However, in 1948 something changed and jews moved back in arabs didn't like it and our country supported it.

That about the gist of it?


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## Michelle420 (Jun 5, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...





drifter said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...





Coyote said:


> flowery said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...





Coyote said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone care to post archeology or real artifacts datelining who was there first?
> ...





Coyote said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Not exactly out of the blue either.


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## Lipush (Jun 5, 2013)

drifter said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...



What is exactly that you wish to know?


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## Michelle420 (Jun 5, 2013)

Lipush said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



I've been posting questions for a few pages now go back a few and read them and respond if you desire to.



I wanted to know how this all began from each persons perspective and how it can be resolved from each persons perspective.

I ask more questions if someone answers something and adds information that makes me curious about their opinion.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 5, 2013)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



The only Zionist offers were offers demanding Palestinians surrender and give up their lands and legal rights.


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## sealadaigh (Jun 5, 2013)

Uncensored2008 said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone care to post archeology or real artifacts datelining who was there first?
> ...



i do not think it accurate to label a people who have had a contiuous presense in a region for nearly two millenia as newcomers. not do i think it accurate to label a religion that has nearly 1.5 billion adherents and 20% of the worlds population as a cult even though most religions began as cults.

"indigenous" is a very strange and vague word. one might claim that those jews who have lived in jerusalem for millenia (and i have no problem defining them as "indigenous") are actually indigenous to southern iraq via abram.

and to further complicate matters, the jews were originally a tribe of people before they became a religious group (simplistically). it would be as if someone were to make the claim that christians are indigenous to israel because that religion sprang from judaic tradition in the holy land.


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## MHunterB (Jun 5, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Every time someone posts a lie like the above bolded sentence, they are showing the rest of us a reason to NOT support the cause embraced by the lying individual.

The Palestinians deserve a far better advocate for their cause.  While their cause is just, there should be no need to lie.


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## toastman (Jun 5, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Link ?

Also since when do the losers of the war dictate how the peace treaty will be played out ?


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## Lipush (Jun 5, 2013)

drifter said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...



It is depends of who you ask how it "all began".

For us it began once this land was promised to us.

If you ask a Palestinian, he or she will tell a different story.

Question is, though, IMHO, is not how it began, but how it will be over.

Much more interesting to know


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## toastman (Jun 5, 2013)

drifter said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...



The debate always comes down to who started the conflict. The pro - Palestinians will claim the Zionists started it and the pro - Israelis will claim the Arabs and Palestinians started it. Then, when links are provided by both sides , each side claims that the website provided by the other side is 'propaganda'. 
The arguments between the pro -Palestinians and pro - Israelis here rarely gets anywhere , it's like a never ending cycle. At least that's the way I see it.


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## Michelle420 (Jun 5, 2013)

Lipush said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



sure, I feel ya.

but some of the folks here keep saying that the jews stole the land from the palestinians and unless you look back and can pinpoint a consensus of who was there first to reference things then it just becomes about 1948 and how they were there and jews came in and killed everyone.

How can it end if that's how they see it, unless the jews just move?

I'm just looking for context.


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## Michelle420 (Jun 5, 2013)

toastman said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



Yeah I am seeing that, it just goes back n forth.

What kind of historical evidence do we have on the matter from archeology etc?


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## Lipush (Jun 5, 2013)

drifter said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...



My own family lived in Israel since 1883.

so this whole "land stealing" just makes me chuckle, honestly.


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## Michelle420 (Jun 5, 2013)

Lipush said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



So in your opinion, if you were in charge what would be the best way to resolve this?


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## Lipush (Jun 5, 2013)

If I knew , I would have run for the Knesset.

I'm out of ideas.


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## toastman (Jun 5, 2013)

drifter said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...


Not too sure I understand your question? Can you elaborate please ?


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## Michelle420 (Jun 5, 2013)

Lipush said:


> If I knew , I would have run for the Knesset.
> 
> I'm out of ideas.



I imagine it would be tough.

The original thread was comparing this to native americans.

Do you think that is a fair comparison?


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## Michelle420 (Jun 5, 2013)

toastman said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



sure.

Is there physical evidence showing that the jewish people lived there before 1948?

If so why don't the palestinians acknowledge that?


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## Lipush (Jun 5, 2013)

I am not THAT familiar with the American history, so I'm afraid the comparison won't be accurate.


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## Lipush (Jun 5, 2013)

drifter said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...



I answered that question in the previous post

The Palestinians know that as well, it's more complicated than that.


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## toastman (Jun 5, 2013)

drifter said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...



There has been Jewish 'presence' in what is now called Israel for many years. That is an indisputable fact. As far as archeological evidence, I am not knowledgeable enough on that subject to give you a good answer. i'm sure you will find most, if not all the answers to your questions regarding that issue on the internet


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jun 5, 2013)

drifter said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...



A couple of years ago, there was a Dead Sea Scrolls Exhibit in New York, on Times Square.  There were coins and pottery from the Jewish period (before 70 AD).  There were also seals with "the House of David" printed on them.  It was fascinating.


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## Michelle420 (Jun 5, 2013)

Lipush said:


> I am not THAT familiar with the American history, so I'm afraid the comparison won't be accurate.



I am not familiar with the IS/PA history and that's why I am asking peoples opinions who are more involved in it.

I can read stuff online pro or con either way, but reading stuff is not living it, and I find it more insightful to ask people who are passionately involved in a topic why they have there point of views.


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## Michelle420 (Jun 5, 2013)

Ok so we can throw out the 1948 argument and move on, this is much more historical then just that time frame that was referenced previously.

That said, Israel is already sharing the land, I see no reason for anything more then that.


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## toastman (Jun 5, 2013)

drifter said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > I am not THAT familiar with the American history, so I'm afraid the comparison won't be accurate.
> ...



Don't let my lack of response to your last question deter you from continuing to ask questions regarding the conflict. Ask me any question and I can do my best to answer it. I'm sure that goes for the other posters here as well


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## Michelle420 (Jun 5, 2013)

toastman said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



Thank you for your receptiveness.

My fiance is coming home after being away a couple weeks, I gotta go for a bit.

I will be back.


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## Lipush (Jun 5, 2013)

drifter said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > I am not THAT familiar with the American history, so I'm afraid the comparison won't be accurate.
> ...



That is very clever.


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## Michelle420 (Jun 5, 2013)

Lipush said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



You get more honest view points imo.


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## sealadaigh (Jun 5, 2013)

Lipush said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



no one in my family has walked in to a public school with an automatic weapon, but that doesn't mean such things don't happen.

the trajedy at newtown doesn't make me chuckle, honestly.

it makes me weep.


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## flowery (Jun 6, 2013)

Lipush said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...





Jewish lived everywhere, In Yemen and Iraq also, for hundred years , but that doesn't mean they have the right to own the whole land and invade the country ,, right?


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## flowery (Jun 6, 2013)

flowery said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > So the jews never lived there before 1948?
> ...




I thought your question, Is Jewish live before Arab ,, sorry for this mistake 
the answer is  yes, there were very few Jewish lived in Palestine before 1948 and also Palestinians, Both of them lived there .  Jewish also they lived in Iraq and  Yemen, and America and everywhere  ,  But ,  the presence of Jewish before 1948 doesn't give them right to invade the country


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## flowery (Jun 6, 2013)

Uncensored2008 said:


> flowery said:
> 
> 
> > All lands belongs to the God
> ...




What !!!!


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## flowery (Jun 6, 2013)

Uncensored2008 said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone care to post archeology or real artifacts datelining who was there first?
> ...





I think you need to read history very carefully ,, from "credible source" also


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## Lipush (Jun 6, 2013)

flowery said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...



Yemen and Iraq are not our homelands


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## Lipush (Jun 6, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...



Eh?


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## flowery (Jun 6, 2013)

Lipush said:


> flowery said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...




Anyone can choose any country and pretend it is the homeland, very easy work ^ ^


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## flowery (Jun 6, 2013)

Lipush said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...




My friend is Palestinian and he said , few Jewish  lived in Palestine  on that time doesn't give them the right to invade the whole country,  Plus, The Jewish rabbis and   Encyclopedia of Judaism admits that Palestine is Arabic country


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## flowery (Jun 6, 2013)

Lipush said:


> flowery said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...




Who make  it your homeland ???
Your Holly Book ??

Jewish Twisted the Book to create any reason to invade Palestine, they wrote their own ideas and claim it is the True Bible

In your book , they claim that the God give Jewish permission to kill people, and burn green land and destroy their buildings !!!

They insult Prophets and some of their wives and daughters, they accused them of making adultery, rape and Killing
They said that   Prophet David killed 100 of Palestinians children(boys)  to offer their  genitals as a dowry to marry
etc ,,,
There is no God would ever say such thing, or ask people to do

This is not a holly book from God
and still ,, you believe it !!!


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## flowery (Jun 6, 2013)

Lipush said:


> flowery said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...





By the way ,,

Palestine in 1200 BC , It called Canaanites country, But in your book Old Bible, Jewish themselves called this land (Palestine) which means that the Bible says clearly the Canaanites, are the Palestinians ,


I will try to translate correctly : 
Read this:
Even the tribes of Israel (who wander in the desert), according to describe the ninth chapter of the Book of Joshua ..When they tried to invade Palestine (clashed acts tournament which was characterized by the people of *Palestine *who broke the back of Israel !)


The testimony of the Bible in the Book of Judges: (*Palestine Arab land of the Canaanites*)


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## Two Thumbs (Jun 6, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


> Hey Dudes, I'm a newbie to the subject and wanted to explore the below comparison:
> 
> Israel was the home of the Jews long ago, but over time (via numerous historical events) it eventually fell into the hands of the Muslims.
> 
> ...



This isn't even apples and oranges.

jews were looking for a safe place to live out of fear of returning home, indians aren't in fear of anything.
jews had everything taken from them and were executed in mass, at the time. that was done to the indians ages ago
The League of Nations (UN) voted on it, not some random country.
The land of israel was a wasteland, not the breadbox Il is.


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## sealadaigh (Jun 6, 2013)

Lipush said:


> reabhloideach said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



it was merely an emphatic illustration of your statement.

i suppose i could have used slavery, or anything else...

imagine someone in georgia in the 1850s saying...

my family has lived in georgia since the 1700s and has never owned a slave.

so this whole "slavery" thing just makes me chuckle, honestly.

i am not criticising your family at all and i am sure that they were honourable people and not "land stealers" but that is not any kind of proof that it doesn't occur...and it is certainly not something to to elicit "chuckles".


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## toastman (Jun 6, 2013)

flowery said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...



What country was 'invaded' and when was this country founded ?


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jun 6, 2013)

toastman said:


> flowery said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



Once again, the Canaanites were NOT Arabs.  Arabs come from Arabia--hence the name.


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## toastman (Jun 6, 2013)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > flowery said:
> ...



Yes, but like most pro Palestinians, this guy is claiming that the Jews invaded a country. I asked him what country was invaded and when was this country founded. I suspect I won't get an answer


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## Lipush (Jun 6, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > reabhloideach said:
> ...



I said it to make a point. My point was that some phrases and figures of speech regarding this conflict are cliches and hardly accurate.

Believe me, I am the last one to think this conflict is a joke


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## Lipush (Jun 6, 2013)

flowery said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > flowery said:
> ...



No its not.

It should be based on something.


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## Lipush (Jun 6, 2013)

flowery said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...




Then your Palestinian friend is wrong.

Yes, few Jews where in the land, but those fiew where there much before the Palestinians were. and these few grew in numbers.

The fair suggestion was in 1948 to split Israel in two, one to each side.

I don't know which history your friend learned, but in MY books, WE agreed, THEY did not. That war was very clearly opened by a side that was not US.

And both of our nations now pay for that one stupidity.

The second mistake of your friend is saying that the Rabbis and "Encyclipedia of Judaism" (What the hell is THAT? there is no such thing, LMAO!) state that Palestine is an Arabic country.

They may say so, and that might be true, but ISRAEL is not an Arabic country, and no verstion in Judaism EVER supported such claim.


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## Lipush (Jun 6, 2013)

flowery said:


> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...



And what is a "credible source"

One which supported your own point of views?


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## Uncensored2008 (Jun 6, 2013)

flowery said:


> What !!!!



"the god," as you call him, al-Ilah. This was the title of Hubal, the pre-Islamic Djin who lived in the Black (or Phallic) stone in the Kaaba. Of course we know that Muhammad destroyed all the idols of the Kaaba - except one - the Black Stone. We know that you and all Muslims bow to that idol 5 times each day, the idol of Hubal. You will strive to travel to Mecca on Hajj, so that you may kiss the idol of Hubal. 






The idol of Hubal (in Hebrew, Ba'al) 

Hubal, pagan god of the moon. The Hebrews wrote of Allah/Hubal  in 1 Kings 18, where, Elijah the prophet offering a sacrifice to Yahweh, Ba&#703;al's followers did the same. According to the Hebrew text, Ba&#703;al did not light his followers' sacrifice, but Yahweh sent heavenly fire to burn Elijah's sacrifice to ashes, even after it had been soaked with water.


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## toastman (Jun 6, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > reabhloideach said:
> ...



Funny , you say you are not criticizing her or her family, but how many times have you told her to leave 'Palestine' and go back where she came from !


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## Lipush (Jun 6, 2013)

flowery said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > flowery said:
> ...



What I believe is my own issue, and has nothing to do with the argument right now.


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## Uncensored2008 (Jun 6, 2013)

flowery said:


> I think you need to read history very carefully ,, from "credible source" also



Anthropological and archeological facts don't lie.

Arabs are late comers.

Medes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jun 6, 2013)

Uncensored2008 said:


> flowery said:
> 
> 
> > What !!!!
> ...



So you're saying that Muslims are idol-worshippers?


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## MHunterB (Jun 6, 2013)

I don't think 'Flowery' is actually a Muslim:  I think it's some wanker of a Muslim-hater out to create a caricature of *radical* Islam*ist* views......


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## Michelle420 (Jun 6, 2013)

I am not sure why Israel had to to split a state and share it but they did and that seems nice.  In reading the posts it appears that the Jewish people were there first and they came back home.


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## Coyote (Jun 6, 2013)

drifter said:


> I am not sure why Israel had to to split a state and share it but they did and that seems nice.  In reading the posts it appears that the Jewish people were there first and they came back home.



They didn't split a state.

And it's irrelevant who was there "first" when you are talking about both sides being there for thousands of years and intermingling.

You don't just leave and return two thousand years later claiming a state and expecting others to move out and accommodate you.

Arab people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## toastman (Jun 6, 2013)

drifter said:


> I am not sure why Israel had to to split a state and share it but they did and that seems nice.  In reading the posts it appears that the Jewish people were there first and they came back home.



A partition plan was implemented in 1947 to split the , now read carefully, BRITISH MANDATE OF PALESTINE' Not Palestine. It was a territory controlled by the British. Even though the territory offered to the Jews was a small fraction of what was originally offered to them in the early 1900's. The Jews were not happy with the smaller amount of land that was offered in 1947, but they gracefully accepted the deal nonetheless . The Arabs, who spoke on behalf of the Palestinians (btw, in 1947 they were not reffered to as Palestinians) rejected the deal.


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## Michelle420 (Jun 6, 2013)

Coyote said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > I am not sure why Israel had to to split a state and share it but they did and that seems nice.  In reading the posts it appears that the Jewish people were there first and they came back home.
> ...



Its irrelevant to you.


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## toastman (Jun 6, 2013)

Coyote said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > I am not sure why Israel had to to split a state and share it but they did and that seems nice.  In reading the posts it appears that the Jewish people were there first and they came back home.
> ...



During the time of the British Mandate of Palestine, it was the British who encouraged Zionist immigration to the land. It's not like the Jews cam out of nowhere . But I agree with you when you say that it doesn't really matter who was their first. They both are entitled to live there.


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## Michelle420 (Jun 6, 2013)

toastman said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > I am not sure why Israel had to to split a state and share it but they did and that seems nice.  In reading the posts it appears that the Jewish people were there first and they came back home.
> ...



Seems generous.


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## Uncensored2008 (Jun 6, 2013)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> So you're saying that Muslims are idol-worshippers?



They bow to an idol 5 times each day. 

Yeah, I guess I am.


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## Coyote (Jun 6, 2013)

toastman said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
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It's a complicated history with a lot of myth building on both sides.  In the end, what matters is what is happening now


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## toastman (Jun 6, 2013)

Coyote said:


> toastman said:
> 
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> > Coyote said:
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Very true !


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## Coyote (Jun 6, 2013)

drifter said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...



Well...you kind of show me that you aren't a simple sojourner of truth.  But all that aside, if it's "important" in terms of deciding who is deserves to be there, then where do you draw the line?

What about native American claims to US territories - surely they deserve to have their original territories returned?  Or is Israel a special case?  

What about Jews who's heritage did not originate there?  What about semitic peoples (not Arabs) who aren't Jewish but trace back?  Proving 2000 plus claims is problematic at best as there have been many migrations and mixing of peoples in that regions before and since and archaelogical evidence is scarce and incomplete.

That is why I say it's irrelevant - states are not determined by ancestral claims vacated thousdands of years ago.


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## Michelle420 (Jun 6, 2013)

Coyote said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
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I am just learning here and ask questions at my own pace.

Sorry if the way my thought processing isn't up to you par Coyote.

Do you have answers to all those questions you are asking?

If yes, go ahead and answer them with your point of view. 

At the end of the day, everything is coming form a point of view and experience.

Again if you don't like my questions or thought processes feel free to ignore me, no need to be sarcastic or use sly dig.


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## Lipush (Jun 6, 2013)

toastman said:


> Coyote said:
> 
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> > drifter said:
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Fair enough


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## Coyote (Jun 6, 2013)

drifter said:


> Coyote said:
> 
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I don't ask questions if I have the answers.

The questions illustrate the problems of trying to use "who was here first" as a means of trying to justify claims by historic peoples.  It's problematic yet you seem to endorse it.


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## Michelle420 (Jun 6, 2013)

Coyote said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



no it was because I wanted to know. 

I will PM folks who invited me to ask questions and duck out of the thread. 

Have a good day.


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## Lipush (Jun 6, 2013)

Don't take things too personally, we're just having a healthy discussion is all


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## Michelle420 (Jun 6, 2013)

Lipush said:


> Don't take things too personally, we're just having a healthy discussion is all



Healthy discussions are just that, and don;t include sarcasm or sly digs.

Thank you though, most of you have been very patient.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 6, 2013)

drifter said:


> I am not sure why Israel had to to split a state and share it but they did and that seems nice.  In reading the posts it appears that the Jewish people were there first and they came back home.



Jews were not the first in the land of Palestine and they are not sharing the land, they are occupying all of the land and they refuse to end their Occupation.


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## toastman (Jun 6, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > I am not sure why Israel had to to split a state and share it but they did and that seems nice.  In reading the posts it appears that the Jewish people were there first and they came back home.
> ...



Got any demographic proof that "Palestinians' lived there for thousands of years? 
Got any proof that they were referred to as 'Palestinians' before 1967 ?


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## Lipush (Jun 6, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > I am not sure why Israel had to to split a state and share it but they did and that seems nice.  In reading the posts it appears that the Jewish people were there first and they came back home.
> ...



IS THAT SO????????

Where not you the same one who does the yo-yo trick of keep claiming the occupation is within the 67' lines, only to now say we occupy "all of the land"?

Which one is it, then?


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## editec (Jun 6, 2013)

We will not find the solution OR even the justification for a solution in this region's HISTORY.

Nobody gives a damn about history enough to say:

_" Well you've bested me in the history game therefore let me leave this place or better still how about I just kill myself and my children, rather than continue to be an incovenience to you"_

People on the ground (quite rightly) just _do not CARE._

So ya'll can bullshit each other with your (far too often revised or wildly incomplete history) but it doesn't matter_ a wit._

All god's children gotta eat​


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## flowery (Jun 6, 2013)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> > flowery said:
> ...





I wrote before ,, people must read the history very well from right sources before enter into discussions with Muslims

What you wrote here absolutely  *Hallucination*

Hubble is one of the ancient gods among the Arabs (before) Islam, and it was a God of Quraish who worshiped it .  Hubal idol was in the form of human being has a broken arm, and it had been destroyed like other idols.


If Muslims now worship an idol (whatever its shape is) , then what is the point of Islam!!
In the Qura'an , Muslims are forbiddend to worship any thing or human being  but Allah, so how come they worship idle !!!


watch this, Josef Estes , is American man, surely he can make understand what is the Black Stone, and will tell you it is not Idol 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lGQs9QCAK8]Do Muslims worship a moon God or The Kaba(black box)? - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMfGrmpz5eM]Do the Muslims worship the Black Box in the Desert_ Sheik Yusuf Estes.flv - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OXYOZYNUCg]Miracle of ISLAM the Black Stone ( Confirmed by NASA) - YouTube[/ame]



Q:
Are Jews idol worshipers for praying to God Almighty while directly facing the wailing wall in a very close distance ?


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## flowery (Jun 6, 2013)

The land of Palestine is a gift from Britain to Israel
It is a quick and effective way to get rid of the problems of the Jews in Britain


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## Coyote (Jun 6, 2013)

drifter said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Don't take things too personally, we're just having a healthy discussion is all
> ...



I apologize for being sharp - "sly digs" are not intended, but sarcasm is a fault of mine, I will try to restrain it


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## MHunterB (Jun 6, 2013)

flowery said:


> The land of Palestine is a gift from Britain to Israel
> It is a quick and effective way to get rid of the problems of the Jews in Britain



Um, *what* 'problems of the Jews in Britain' are you imagining?  It wasn't Britain which created such 'problems' for the Jews as murdering HALF the Jews of Europe in cold blood:  that was the Nazis in Germany (occasionally aided by eager helpers like the 'Arrow Cross' in Hungary and  some other fascist filth).....


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## Lipush (Jun 6, 2013)

flowery said:


> The land of Palestine is a gift from Britain to Israel
> It is a quick and effective way to get rid of the problems of the Jews in Britain



Which problem do you refer to?


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## Lipush (Jun 6, 2013)

flowery said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Uncensored2008 said:
> ...



The WesternWall is part of the old Temple, which was a place of WORSHIPPING GOD.

So your statement makes no sense.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 6, 2013)

Lipush said:


> flowery said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...



Is that the place women are not allowed to pray at? Such an enlightening religion that discriminates against women in such a fashion.


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## toastman (Jun 6, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > flowery said:
> ...



A supporter of Hamas and Muslim Extremism accusing Jews of discrimination of women ??? I mean, I don't even know where to begin


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 6, 2013)

Lipush said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...



We have an intl court telling us East Jerusalem and  the West Bank and Gaza are occupied. We have no opinion by the Intl Court as to sovereignty of the rest of British Mandate Palestine. It seems to me Israel desperately is in need of an agreement with Palestinians to have any legitimacy with respect to  her sovereignty rights with respect to any land in British Mandate Palestine.


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## toastman (Jun 6, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



Any agreement with the Palestinians begins with the complete cessation of hostilities (rocket fire)...


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jun 6, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > flowery said:
> ...



Women have always prayed at the Western Wall.  The issue that you're referring to, is this:  When Jewish men pray to G-d, they wear special prayer shawls and other items.  A certain group of women now want to pray at the Wall wearing these shawls and items.  It says in the Torah that women can't wear men's clothes and vice versa.  That is what the men (and other women) object to.  It's an internal Jewish issue, which shouldn't concern others.


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## Lipush (Jun 6, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > flowery said:
> ...



So you ask and then answer yourself? how does it work?

And why don't you check the facts before saying nonsense?

Women are allowed to pray at the WesternWall.

I visited the wall and prayed there myself many times.

So please, if you can't find anything clever to say, just zip it.

Seriously.


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## Lipush (Jun 6, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



But its exactly opposite to what you said few posts ago...


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## Lipush (Jun 6, 2013)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



Not only that, they used to many times go to pray in _Ezrat Gvarim_.

As a woman, I find this highly disrespectful.

I said many times, if they so much want to feel like Jewish men, let them start it once they are 8 days old.

Don't you believe its fair?


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## MHunterB (Jun 6, 2013)

"*Is that the place women are not allowed to pray at? Such an enlightening religion that discriminates against women in such a fashion*."

How very droll: this comes from the same poster who posted about how *in shari'a a woman's testimony or life are worth LESS than that of a man *, and never seemed to notice the discrimination *there*!

As I've said before, whenever a 'critic of Israel' posts the kind of idiotic lying filth as the bolded quote above - it trumpets their aggressive ignorance and undercuts any 'points' they may try to pursue.


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## flowery (Jun 7, 2013)

Lipush said:


> flowery said:
> 
> 
> > The land of Palestine is a gift from Britain to Israel
> ...



Jews are hated everywhere in the world , and  of course, will not be announced
Jews control the dozens of newspapers, specially in Britain, like Times and Sunday Times 

But you can watch their behavior "ALIVE" against people in Palestine 
or read about the massacres they have committed  and still doing their 
or 
your can read some of their behavior in a different way , read one of Shakespeare's plays 


Plus, Britain needed support in the First World War

Also, the Jews could not fit in Europe

In Herzl's letter to Tsar on 25/5/1898
(I see that Europeanization is ready to encourage Jews to the occupation more than others, and perhaps this encouragement was not because they have a historical right which is guaranteed them the most sacred of human books, but because of the feeling in every place, the feeling of working on the output of the Jews.)


They are expelled from all over the world , maybe because they poisoned the water and spread of the Black Plague in Europe


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## flowery (Jun 7, 2013)

drifter said:


> I am not sure why Israel had to to split a state and share it but they did and that seems nice.  In reading the posts it appears that the Jewish people were there first and they came back home.




You've jumped to conclusion very fast  !!


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## Lipush (Jun 7, 2013)

It seems to me you're just one more of those who are fed Anti-Zionist Anti-semitic propaganda.

"Jews control the world" blah blah blah, "Jews are evil" blah blah blah.

Yeah, talk to me later, I am going to boil a palestinian child and then drink its blood.


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## flowery (Jun 7, 2013)

Lipush said:


> Yeah, talk to me later, I am going to boil a palestinian child and then drink its blood.




You've already done that but in different ways ,,


*Warning: Graphic Images*
In Der Yaseen massacre 1948 
http://images.bokra.net/bokra//08-04-2012/03.jpg


and in In Gaza massacre 
http://www.quran-m.com/firas/ar_photo/1241140563bwy1231313646q.jpg


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 7, 2013)

toastman said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



A dispute regarding the status of the territories was settled by an Arbitrator appointed by the Council of the League of Nations. *It was decided that Palestine and Transjordan were newly created states according to the terms of the applicable post-war treaties. *In its Judgment No. 5, The Mavrommatis Palestine Concessions, the Permanent Court of International Justice also decided that *Palestine was responsible as the successor state* for concessions granted by Ottoman authorities. *The Courts of Palestine and Great Britain *decided that title to the properties shown on the Ottoman Civil list had been ceded to the* government of Palestine as an allied successor state.*

State of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 7, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



Indeed, we don't.


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## toastman (Jun 7, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...



So you're telling me that the state of Palestine was founded in 1988 ?


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 7, 2013)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



Of course not. You need to continue reading.


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## toastman (Jun 7, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Such a simple question. Yet you can't answer it and you resort to wikipedia to answer my question.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jun 7, 2013)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



Haven't you learned by now that Tinmore is incapable of writing more than one or two sentences?  I wonder if he ever wrote a report for school or work.


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 7, 2013)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



I answered your question.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/israe...-and-the-native-americans-22.html#post7344063


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 7, 2013)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



An answer does not require a page of song and dance.


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## toastman (Jun 7, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



You answered nothing. YOu are not able to distinguish between a GEOGRPAHICAL REGION and  STATE !


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## toastman (Jun 7, 2013)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Yes, I have noticed that.


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## Jroc (Jun 7, 2013)

Coyote said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > I am not sure why Israel had to to split a state and share it but they did and that seems nice.  In reading the posts it appears that the Jewish people were there first and they came back home.
> ...



The problem with you people is for some reason you think all those Arabs were already there before the Zionist movement began. That's where you show your ignorance...and you are ignorance no doubt about


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 7, 2013)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



OK, so what is the difference?


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## toastman (Jun 7, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Google is your friend buddy. Go look it back, you will find countless sites that will give you definitions. Stop playing this game with me


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 7, 2013)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



I was just funnin' with you. I wanted you to duck the question first.

A region is an undefined territory that may be in a state or in more than one state. The corn belt, the Bible belt, or the great plains could be regions.

Palestine, however, is defined by international borders.


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## toastman (Jun 7, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Can you post a link that not only shows the internationally recognized borders , but the information concerning them please


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## Coyote (Jun 7, 2013)

Jroc said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...



Actually, the problem is with your "you people".

I do not and never have claimed "all those" Arabs were already there - there's been substantial migration/immigration on both sides.

How about some honesty in your argument?


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## Coyote (Jun 7, 2013)

*
Under Moderator Review*


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## Coyote (Jun 7, 2013)

*This thread has been cleaned of off topic/flaming material.  For your viewing pleasure, let me remind you of the rules for this zone:

"Zone 2": Political Forum / Israel and Palestine Forum / Race Relations/Racism Forum: Baiting and polarizing OP's (Opening Posts), and thread titles risk the thread either being moved or trashed. Keep it relevant, choose wisely. Each post must contain content relevant to the thread subject, in addition to any flame. No trolling. No hit and run flames. No hijacking threads.

and

Off-topic posts may be edited, trashed, deleted, or moved to an appropriate forum as per administrator & moderator discretion at any time within any forum and/or sub forum. 

Let's stick to material relevant to IP and avoid derailing this thread into a discussion of religion or individual posters.*


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## toastman (Jun 7, 2013)

Coyote, what would we do without you


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## Coyote (Jun 7, 2013)

toastman said:


> Coyote, what would we do without you



Sweetheart, can you get us back on track with a rousing IP discussion?


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## toastman (Jun 7, 2013)

Coyote said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote, what would we do without you
> ...



Sure, I'm just waiting for Tinmore to give me a link discussing the borders of Palestine and their international recognition. _'m not saying they don't exist, but I cant find them. He's offline now, but when he comes back I'm sure he'll post them _


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 7, 2013)

toastman said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...


_

Example:




			Article V

1. The Armistice Demarcation Line shall follow the international boundary between the Lebanon and Palestine.

The Avalon Project : Lebanese-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, March 23, 1949

Click to expand...


This is similar to all of the armistice agreements. I can post the links if you like.









_


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jun 7, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


_

Israel has more culture and identity as the only Jewish state in the world, than Palestine will ever have as a 23rd Arab state._


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jun 7, 2013)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...


_

For the poster known as "member", do you see the map of Palestinian "costumes"?  You made such a big fuss because I described clothing as "costumes" at one time.  Obviously, other people call clothing "costumes" too._


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## MHunterB (Jun 7, 2013)

Tinny:  I categorically object to using any material which refers to the establishment of the State of Israel as a 'Tragedy' or 'Calamity' (or 'Nakba'). 

If you want to have an actual 'discussion' you are going to have to find material which is not so blatantly biased.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 7, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> Tinny:  I categorically object to using any material which refers to the establishment of the State of Israel as a 'Tragedy' or 'Calamity' (or 'Nakba').
> 
> If you want to have an actual 'discussion' you are going to have to find material which is not so blatantly biased.



What I find detestable is Nakba denial, how can anyone engage in a discussion with a person so bigoted as  to embrace Nakba denial.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 7, 2013)

Nakba: The Israeli Holocaust Denial

Ilan Pappe deserves credit. He goes further than most Israelis in deconstructing the Jewish state&#8217;s historical revisionism, which he calls a "Zionist whitewash of words." But does Pappe go far enough?The iconoclastic Haifa University historian has written a book,*The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine, destroying the "Israeli foundational myth," which he describes as a "sheer fabrication." Pappe sets straight the Israeli historiography. Central to Zionist historical revisionism is Nakba (catastrophe) denial. Pappe affirms the occurrence of the Nakba which he states was not a "voluntary flight" but part of a Zionist blueprint (Plan Dalet) for the ethnic cleansing of Palestine. It was ethnic cleansing, but was it not also something more sinister?Pappe identifies the perpetrators of the Nakba as the "heroes of the Jewish war of independence," of who the best known is David Ben-Gurion, "the architect" of ethnic cleansing. Ben-Gurion is more accurately viewed as one of history&#8217;s vilest war criminals.Pappe writes, "[C]ontrary to claims historians such as Benny Morris have made, Plan Dalet was handed down to the brigade officers not as vague guidelines, but as clear-cut operational orders for action." The action resulted in the expulsion of almost 800,000 people and the destruction of 531 villages and 11 urban neighborhoods. Palestinian villages were literally*wiped off the map*by Zionists.   Nakba: The Israeli Holocaust Denial :: www.uruknet.info :: informazione dal medio oriente :: information from middle east :: [reg.de]


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 7, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> Tinny:  I categorically object to using any material which refers to the establishment of the State of Israel as a 'Tragedy' or 'Calamity' (or 'Nakba').
> 
> If you want to have an actual 'discussion' you are going to have to find material which is not so blatantly biased.



I feel the same way when people play the blatantly biased terrorist card.


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## toastman (Jun 7, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> > Tinny:  I categorically object to using any material which refers to the establishment of the State of Israel as a 'Tragedy' or 'Calamity' (or 'Nakba').
> ...



Even the country you live in calls Hamas terrorists. IT's not a propaganda card. Hamas , during the second intifada used 'fear' to intimidate their enemy. You can argue that now, they have changed their ways and are less violent, but the way I see it they will always be a terrorist organization. I don't know why you get offended when we say that.

Concerning the borders, you provided very little evidence. And those are not the borders now. Borders change over time . I can show you the borders that Israel has with Egypt and Jordan, but you will come up with your usual, "Palestine has to cede land to Israel' for those borders to be viable


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 7, 2013)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > MHunterB said:
> ...



That is correct. Look it up.


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## toastman (Jun 7, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


I did the first time you brought this up, but I found nothing . Care to provide some information regarding this ?

My next question is, what is the border of Jordan in the west ?


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## toastman (Jun 7, 2013)

Concerning the border with Egypt:

*The Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty, signed on March 26, 1979 created an officially recognized international border along the 1906 line, with Egypt renouncing all claims to the Gaza Strip. A dispute arose over the marking of the border line at its southernmost point, in Taba. Taba was on the Egyptian side of the armistice line of 1949, but Israel claimed that Taba had been on the Ottoman side of a border agreed between the Ottomans and British Egypt in 1906, and that there had previously been an error in marking the line. The issue was submitted to an international commission composed of one Israeli, one Egyptian, and three outsiders. In 1988, the commission ruled in Egypt's favor, and Israel withdrew from Taba later that year.*

Borders of Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The three key words in that paragraph are "*OFFICIALLY RECOGNIZED BORDERS"*


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 7, 2013)

toastman said:


> Concerning the border with Egypt:
> 
> *The Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty, signed on March 26, 1979 created an officially recognized international border along the 1906 line, with Egypt renouncing all claims to the Gaza Strip. A dispute arose over the marking of the border line at its southernmost point, in Taba. Taba was on the Egyptian side of the armistice line of 1949, but Israel claimed that Taba had been on the Ottoman side of a border agreed between the Ottomans and British Egypt in 1906, and that there had previously been an error in marking the line. The issue was submitted to an international commission composed of one Israeli, one Egyptian, and three outsiders. In 1988, the commission ruled in Egypt's favor, and Israel withdrew from Taba later that year.*
> 
> ...



Seven key words.



> This article needs additional citations for verification.


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## toastman (Jun 7, 2013)

Wow, is that all you got ??


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## toastman (Jun 7, 2013)

Peace Treaty between Israel and Egypt - Non-UN document (26 March 1979)

Completely forgot about this site. This should clarify everything for you.


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## toastman (Jun 7, 2013)

BTW, nowhere on that site does it say "This article needs additional citations for verifications".
So unfortunately for you , you're going to have to come up with an ACTUAL rebuttal .


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 7, 2013)

toastman said:


> Peace Treaty between Israel and Egypt - Non-UN document (26 March 1979)
> 
> Completely forgot about this site. This should clarify everything for you.





> Article II
> 
> The* permanent boundary* between Egypt and Israel in the* recognized international boundary* between Egypt and the former mandated territory of Palestine,



Permanent not international.

Hmmm.


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## toastman (Jun 7, 2013)

I don't really understand the connection between permanent and international


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## Jroc (Jun 7, 2013)

the Jews take in their own

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSOa1u2pW1A"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSOa1u2pW1A[/ame]


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 7, 2013)

We have been over this treaty business many times before, a treaty is simply an agreement between the parties to the treaty and can only establish rights among those who are parties to the treaty. If a nation claims land they do not have sovereignty rights over in a treaty with another party, that agreement certainly does not operate to give that nation rights in land they do not have. Example, I will address Sheeba Farms. There apparently is a dispute over whether Syria or Lebanon have sovereignty rights in Sheeba Farms. And Israel occupies Sheeba Farms. If Israel entered into a treaty with either of those two nations and. relinquished Sheeba Farms to either and ended her Occupation, that treaty would only establish legal rights between the two nations a party to the treaty. It would not establish whether Syria or Lebanon had sovereignty rights to Sheeba Farms.


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## RoccoR (Jun 8, 2013)

toastman;  _et al,_

Yes, some people are often confused.



toastman said:


> I don't really understand the connection between permanent and international


*(COMMENT)*

All "permanent boundaries" are "international boundaries."  But not all "international boundaries" are "permanent."  

When the UN calls a a boundary "permanent," the issue is closed; with no further recognized disputes having standing.

A "permanent boundary" has a higher order of legitimacy.  Any "international boundary" which is under dispute for cause, may change (not permanent).

Oddly enough, one side of a boundary may be permanent, while the other side may not.  And that has an example with the boundary that is between Israel and Jordan holding the intervention of the West Bank.  Once the Occupation ends, the boundary will not change for Jordan, but the other side will change hands; possibly becoming permanent.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 9, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> toastman;  _et al,_
> 
> Yes, some people are often confused.
> 
> ...



This is simply opinions of a poster, there is no basis for these conclusions in intl law. If I am wrong about this, please reference the provisions in intl law that tell us this. The UN only has rights they have that intl law gives them. The UN Charter, for example, is itself a treaty.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 9, 2013)

"Spanish*conquistadors*(conquerors) first arrived in the region now known as*Texas*in 1519, finding the region populated by various*Native American*tribes. During the period from 1519 to 1848, all or parts of Texas were claimed by six countries:*France,*Spain,*Mexico, the*Republic of Texas, the*United States of America&#8212;as well as the*Confederate States of America*in 1861&#8211;65.The first*European*base was established in 1682, when*René-Robert Cavelier, Sieur de La Salleestablished a French colony,*Fort Saint Louis, near*Matagorda Bay. The colony was killed off after three years, but its presence motivated Spanish authorities to begin activity. Several missions were established in*East Texas; they were abandoned in 1691. Twenty years later, concerned with the French presence in neighboring*Louisiana, Spanish authorities again attempted to colonize Texas. Over the next 110 years, Spain established numerous villages,presidios, and missions in the province. A small number of Spanish settlers arrived, in addition to missionaries and soldiers. Spain signed agreements with colonizers from the United States. When Mexico won its*independence from Spain in 1821,*Mexican Texas*was part of the new nation. To encourage settlement, Mexican authorities allowed organized immigration from the United States, and by 1834, over 30,000*Anglos lived in Texas,[1]*compared to only 7,800*Mexicans.[2]After Santa Anna's dissolution of the*Constitution of 1824, issues such as lack of access to courts, the militarization of the region's government (e.g., response to Saltillo-Monclova problem) and self-defense issues resulting in the confrontation in Gonzales, public sentiment turned towards revolution. Santa Anna's invasion of the territory after his putting down the rebellion in*Zacatecas*provoked the conflict of 1836. The*Texian forces*fought and won theTexas Revolution*in 1835&#8211;36. Texas now became an independent nation, the*Republic of Texas. Attracted by the rich cotton lands and ranch lands, tens of thousands of immigrants arrived from the U.S. and from Germany as well. In 1845, Texas*joined the United States,*"   History of Texas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. If Jordan is Palestine, Texas is Mexico.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 9, 2013)

"The area of Palestine under British administration, excluding Trans- jordania, is something over 9,000 square miles, with an  estimated population (1922) of about 754,500. Of these about 583,000 are Moslems, 84,500 Christians, and 79,300 Jews. These figures do not include the garrison... The settled Arabs are of more mixed descent than the Beduin, and form the link between these and the Syrians, by whom we understand the descendants of all those peoples, other than the Jews, who spoke Aramaic at the beginning of the Christian era. Some of these have retained their Christianity, but the majority have in the course of ages embraced Islam. The Aramaic language, after holding its ground for a considerable time in Palestine and Syria, ultimately gave place to Arabic (though surviving among the Samaritans and, as regards Syrians, in three villages north-east of Damascus), and this process was facilitated by the continuous replenishment of Palestine and Syria from the tribes of the Arabian Desert. This Arab infiltration has created and maintains the specific racial character of the population. The distinction between the Arabs and the Syrians is now not so much racial as cultural. The Syrians are agriculturists and dwellers in towns, civilized, industrial, and of peaceful inclinations ; the Arabs are a pastoral people organized in tribes and with a natural tendency towards inter- tribal warfare. Palestine and Syria offer, on their eastern border, examples of every stage of transition from the nomad Beduin to the settled fellahin ; the Arab conquest of the eighth century was only the flood-tide of a continuous overflow from the desert into the cultivated land of the West. § 4. Circassians, Bosnians and Magharbeh."   Full text of "The handbook of Palestine; edited by Harry Charles Luke and Edward Keith-Roach. With an introd. by Herbert Samuel"


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## RoccoR (Jun 9, 2013)

SherriMunnerly,  _et al,_

Oddly enough, I've studied this book.



SherriMunnerlyn said:


> "The area of Palestine under British administration, excluding Trans- jordania, is something over 9,000 square miles, with an  estimated population (1922) of about 754,500. Of these about 583,000 are Moslems, 84,500 Christians, and 79,300 Jews. These figures do not include the garrison... The settled Arabs are of more mixed descent than the Beduin, and form the link between these and the Syrians, by whom we understand the descendants of all those peoples, other than the Jews, who spoke Aramaic at the beginning of the Christian era. Some of these have retained their Christianity, but the majority have in the course of ages embraced Islam. The Aramaic language, after holding its ground for a considerable time in Palestine and Syria, ultimately gave place to Arabic (though surviving among the Samaritans and, as regards Syrians, in three villages north-east of Damascus), and this process was facilitated by the continuous replenishment of Palestine and Syria from the tribes of the Arabian Desert. This Arab infiltration has created and maintains the specific racial character of the population. The distinction between the Arabs and the Syrians is now not so much racial as cultural. The Syrians are agriculturists and dwellers in towns, civilized, industrial, and of peaceful inclinations ; the Arabs are a pastoral people organized in tribes and with a natural tendency towards inter- tribal warfare. Palestine and Syria offer, on their eastern border, examples of every stage of transition from the nomad Beduin to the settled fellahin ; the Arab conquest of the eighth century was only the flood-tide of a continuous overflow from the desert into the cultivated land of the West. § 4. Circassians, Bosnians and Magharbeh."   Full text of "The handbook of Palestine; edited by Harry Charles Luke and Edward Keith-Roach. With an introd. by Herbert Samuel"


*(COINCIDENCE)*

Just by coincidence, at the very beginning of this book it says: 



			
				PART I.  GEOGRAPHY AND HISTORY said:
			
		

> § I. Introductory p
> 
> Palestine is bounded on the north by the French sphere of Syria, on the west by the Mediterranean, on the south by Egyptian and Hejaz territory, the boundary running from
> a point west of Rafa on the Mediterranean to east of Taba at the head of the Gulf of Akaba, and then north-east. *On the east is the territory of Trans-jordania, which is included in the area of the Palestine Mandate.*



Most Respectfully,
R


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## toastman (Jun 9, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > toastman;  _et al,_
> ...



Are you asking for references concerning the borders of Israel?


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 9, 2013)

Palestine and Transjordan were administered separately from the adoption of the Mandate in 1922. The terms of the Mandate itself specifies this.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 9, 2013)

toastman said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



Can you read?


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## toastman (Jun 9, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



Can you ? Rocco has provided you with indisputable evidence concerning the original British Mandate yet you still don't seem to comprehend . 
I really don't know what you get out of denying denying and denying


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 9, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> toastman;  _et al,_
> 
> Yes, some people are often confused.
> 
> ...





> A "permanent boundary" has a higher order of legitimacy.



Link?


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jun 9, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> SherriMunnerly,  _et al,_
> 
> Oddly enough, I've studied this book.
> 
> ...



Sherri, your own document says that Palestine was continuously replenished by tribes from the Arabian desert.  In other words, the residents of Palestine came from Arabia, and not just once, but many times.  They are not descendants of Canaanites or Philistines, but recent foreigners from Arabia.  The document even uses the word "infiltrated".


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## toastman (Jun 9, 2013)

Sherri, your continuous denial makes you look like a 10 year old


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 9, 2013)

People have moved in and out of Palestine since the time of Herodotus. And various movements of peoples have impacted the customs and religions of the indigenous people there. That book says little more than that.  Response to Post 375


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 9, 2013)

toastman said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



Learn to read and read Article 25 of the Mandate.


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## toastman (Jun 9, 2013)

I read it. It does not disprove that Transjordan was PART of the original mandate. I asked you to google 'original british mandate' and go to images, then  report to us what you learned


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## RoccoR (Jun 9, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn,  _et al,_

Actually, Article 25 works in my favor.



SherriMunnerlyn said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...


*(REFERENCE)*



			
				Article 25 said:
			
		

> In the territories lying between the Jordan and the eastern boundary of Palestine as ultimately determined, the Mandatory shall be entitled, with the consent of the Council of the League of Nations, to postpone or withhold application of such provisions of this mandate as he may consider inapplicable to the existing local conditions, and to make such provision for the administration of the territories as he may consider suitable to those conditions, provided that no action shall be taken which is inconsistent with the provisions of Articles 15, 16 and 18.
> 
> _*SOURCE:*_ Mandate for Palestine - League of Nations (12 August 1922)


*(COMMENT)*

The "territories lying between the Jordan and the eastern boundary of Palestine" describes the Emirate of TransJordan. 

The phrase, "with the consent of the Council of the League of Nations" means that it is not free to act autonomously.

The phrase "no action shall be taken which is inconsistent with the provisions of Articles 15, 16 and 18" stipulates what portions of the Mandate apply and which don't.​
Clearly, some portions of the Mandate of Palestine apply, even if you read Article 25 as a standalone document _(which it is not)_.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 9, 2013)

BRITISH Mandate Palestine included the administration of two territories, whose borders were defined from the outset of the Mandate.  "The*British Mandate for Palestine, or simply the*Mandate for Palestine, was a*legal commission*for the administration of the territory that had formerly constituted the*OttomanSanjaks*of*Nablus,*Acre, the Southern portion of the*Beirut Vilayet, and the*Mutasarrifate of Jerusalem, prior to the*Armistice of Mudros. The draft of the Mandate was formally confirmed by the Council of the*League of Nations*on 24 July 1922, amended via the 16 September 1922Transjordan memorandum[1][2]*and which came into effect on 29 September 1923[1]*following the ratification of the*Treaty of Lausanne.[3][4]*The mandate ended at midnight on 14 May 1948.The document was based on the principles contained in Article 22 of the draft*Covenant of the League of Nations*and the*San Remo Resolution*of 25 April 1920 by the principal*Allied and associated powers*after the First World War.[1]*The mandate formalised*British*rule in the southern part of*Ottoman Syria*from 1923&#8211;1948.The formal objective of the League of Nations Mandate system was to administer parts of the defunct*Ottoman Empire, which had been in control of the Middle East since the 16th century, "until such time as they are able to stand alone."[5]*The mandate document formalised the division of the British protectorates -*Palestine, to include a*national home for the Jewish people, under direct British rule, and*Transjordan, an*Emirate*governed semi-autonomously from Britain under the rule of the*Hashemite*family.[1]"    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_for_Palestine_(legal_instrument)


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## toastman (Jun 9, 2013)

Lets try to make it simple Sherri:

Do you believe that Transjordan was part of the original British Mandate, YES or NO?


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 9, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> toastman;  _et al,_
> 
> Yes, some people are often confused.
> 
> ...



None of Palestine's borders are disputed by its neighbors.


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## RoccoR (Jun 9, 2013)

P F Tinmore;  _et al,_

Well, you got me there!



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > toastman;  _et al,_
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

I would suppose that none of the Palestinian territories (Gaza Strip and the West Bank) have any borders to dispute.  And the remainder of the borders are by other arrangements.  They seem to be armistice lines and quarantine boundaries.

I have to admit, I don't yet understand the implications of the Palestinian Authority's new status (of December past).  But I'm waiting to see what outcomes avail themselves.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## toastman (Jun 9, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > toastman;  _et al,_
> ...



Technically, you cannot dispute something imaginary !


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 10, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore;  _et al,_
> 
> Well, you got me there!
> 
> ...



Palestine has international borders with Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Egypt. I have seen no disputes with any of them.


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## toastman (Jun 10, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore;  _et al,_
> ...



No, they don't.


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 10, 2013)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



Indeed, there are no border disputes.

Well, Abbas wants a dispute. He is the one who wants to change borders around.


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## toastman (Jun 10, 2013)

there's no borders for there to be a dispute over...


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 10, 2013)

toastman said:


> there's no borders for there to be a dispute over...



make up your mind, one minute you say there are borders, the next minute you say there are none.


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## toastman (Jun 10, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > there's no borders for there to be a dispute over...
> ...



There are ISRAELI borders, not Palestinian borders. Maybe one day there will be , but not now.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 10, 2013)

toastman said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



lol, only in the dreams of Zionists does Israel have legitimacy.


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## toastman (Jun 10, 2013)

Borders are borders, weather you hate Israel or not, lol


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## MHunterB (Jun 18, 2013)

Native, Jewish bond thicker than water | Columnists | Opinion | Toronto Sun

Here's another NA activist, expressing a different opinion on the topic.  

"Justice for Palestinians is attempting to organize with the Council of Canadians a conference titled &#8220;Indigenous Perspectives on Water: Canada and Palestine.&#8221;

The objective is to conflate Palestinian and Native rights issues. Indeed, Justice for Palestinians is seeking a speaker from Idle No More, a Native rights movement in which I have been active. I take strong issue with Palestinians&#8217; appropriation of the Native cause...."


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 18, 2013)

toastman said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



Palestine has territory that is defined by international borders. Israel has never legally acquired any territory and consequently has no borders.


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## toastman (Jun 18, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



Sure they do. I was there myself.

Oh, and remember the Seek Justice Pursue Peace thread where you claimed Israel has no Borders. Did you forget the spanking he gave you ??? Go bring up that thread to remind yourself of the idiotic comments that you keep making.


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 18, 2013)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



Show me a treaty where Israel acquired any territory.


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## toastman (Jun 18, 2013)

They don't need a treaty for that.
I showed you treaties that gave them borders with Egypt and Jordan.
Show me treaties that gave 'Palestine' Borders


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 18, 2013)

toastman said:


> They don't need a treaty for that.
> I showed you treaties that gave them borders with Egypt and Jordan.
> Show me treaties that gave 'Palestine' Borders





> They don't need a treaty for that.



All they have to do is park their fat ass on a piece of land with a gun and call it theirs.



> (d) In the sector from a point on the Dead Sea (MR 1925-0958) to the southernmost tip of Palestine, the Armistice Demarcation Line shall be determined...
> 
> The Avalon Project : Jordanian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, April 3, 1949



Israel calls that land Israel. When did that happen?


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## toastman (Jun 19, 2013)

When they declared Independence in 1948 . 
It's not their fault the Arabs rejected the partition plan.

So, about those treaties that gave 'Palestine' borders.......


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 19, 2013)

toastman said:


> When they declared Independence in 1948 .
> It's not their fault the Arabs rejected the partition plan.
> 
> So, about those treaties that gave 'Palestine' borders.......





> When they declared Independence in *1948 *.



Uhhh, that agreement was in *1949* and Israel signed it. The place was called Palestine.


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## toastman (Jun 19, 2013)

Now it's called Israel.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 19, 2013)

toastman said:


> Now it's called Israel.



Zionists may call the land that. People of conscience, many of us still call the land Palestine, the name the land has been called since the time Herodotus lived. ZIONISTS cannot take away our conscience no matter how many babies they slaughter. Sherri


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## Uncensored2008 (Jun 19, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Now it's called Israel.
> ...



*People of conscience?* 

You fucking strap bombs on your children and use them as terrorist weapons. What sort of "conscience" is it that you have?


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 19, 2013)

Uncensored2008 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



Not true, deal with Truth and notZionist propaganda.


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## peach174 (Jun 19, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



The Quran says that the land belongs to the Jews, given to them by Allah.
The Qur'an and the Land of Israel


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 19, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> Native, Jewish bond thicker than water | Columnists | Opinion | Toronto Sun
> 
> Here's another NA activist, expressing a different opinion on the topic.
> 
> ...



I take issue with that racism that denies the indigenous people in Palestine their rights.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 19, 2013)

peach174 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



That is not what the Quran says.  Learn to read.


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## KevinWestern (Jun 19, 2013)

Uncensored2008 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



Well, to be fair, the powers that be in the United States also sends the kids (ie soldiers) into unnecessary situations of extreme violence and death in order to achieve selfish strategic and economic gains. 

The western military industrial complex wasn't hurting for revenue in the last decade, and one has to think how much greed played a part in ushering our country into foolish places like Iraq. 

What we do is no less barbaric, and arguably much more destructive. 


.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 19, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...


The claim Palestinians strap bombs to their children is a Zionist lie. Israel abuses and tortures and unlawfully imprisons and tortures Palestinian children and has killed 1519 children since 9/30/2000. Israel also unlawfully uses Palestinian children as human shields.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 19, 2013)

Palestinians: 1519 TOTALS  Remember These Children 2012 Memorial.  THis is the most recent child Israel killed, he was shot in the head. 23 January 2013. Saleh Amarin, 15,*of Aida refugee camp, in the West Bank district of Bethlehem, died from a wound suffered during clashes 5 days earlier when he was shot in the head by Israeli soldiers.


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## peach174 (Jun 19, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...




Since when did Croation news become Zionists?
Pregnant Palestinian Planned Suicide Bomb - Asia - Around the globe - World - Dalje.com


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## peach174 (Jun 19, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



Yes it does, read it for yourself
THE QUR'AN SAYS:

"To Moses We [Allah] gave nine clear signs. Ask the Israelites how he [Moses] first appeared amongst them. Pharoah said to him: 'Moses, I can see that you are bewitched.' 'You know full well,' he [Moses] replied, 'that none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth has revealed these visible signs. Pharoah, you are doomed.'"

"Pharoah sought to scare them [the Israelites] out of the land [of Israel]: but We [Allah] drowned him [Pharoah] together with all who were with him. Then We [Allah] said to the Israelites: 'Dwell in this land [the Land of Israel]. When the promise of the hereafter [End of Days] comes to be fulfilled, We [Allah] shall assemble you [the Israelites] all together [in the Land of Israel]."

"We [Allah] have revealed the Qur'an with the truth, and with the truth it has come down. We have sent you [Muhammed] forth only to proclaim good news and to give warning."

[Qur'an, "Night Journey," chapter 17:100-104


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 19, 2013)

Words about  what happened in the past or End TImes/Eschaetogy say nothing about today. And what is written in the alleged version of the Quran you cite do not support the claims you made in your post. And that is really funny, those brackets someone added.


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## peach174 (Jun 19, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Words about  what happened in the past or End Times/Eschaetogy say nothing about today. And what is written in the alleged version of the Quran you cite do not support the claims you made in your post.



I'm guessing you did not click on the link I provided.
Many Christians, Jews and Muslims believe we are in end times.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 19, 2013)

peach174 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > Words about  what happened in the past or End Times/Eschaetogy say nothing about today. And what is written in the alleged version of the Quran you cite do not support the claims you made in your post.
> ...



I am a Christian. I follow the teachings of Jesus, not the teachings of Eschaetology teachers. And the words quoted do not say what you claim they said in your post. In the Bible and I have read this is also true of the Quran, it is written that God/Allah owns the land. Those words are inconsistent with the claims you make. Perhaps, the concepts of living in a land and owning land are two different things to God/Allah.. The fact is that the land was never inhabited by only Jews, God can conceivably call a people to a place without dispossessing all other peoples from the land. Look at the US, we have all different races and ethnicities. Do you think God loves just some of us or wants just some of us here or to own land?  Look at Jesus. He showed no favoritism to people, he excluded none because of their race or ethnicity. JESUS shows us who God is, Christians I speak of. He never told the nonJews to leave Palestine, that Palestine belonged to Jews alone. Many Palestinians are Christians even.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Jun 19, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



Oh
my 
goodness.

I was wondering where your hate was coming from.  You are jealous of the Jews.

G-d's land of Israel was given to the Jewish people as His chosen people to dwell on the land.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 19, 2013)

So, I read what others say about the Quran who are Muslims. They say Allah also said in the Quran that the land belongs to Him ( in the ayahs). They say even though people have been allowed to "dwell" in the land this doesnt mean that they own the land and it doesnt mean that they have to drive all others out of their homes and kill them to take the land. Opinions of Muslims about these passages, I read some think this ayah is a bigger sign for them that even though God gave them the right to dwell in this land, it did not exempt anyone else from living in it, nor did God say that they can rule it as they please. Further, some suggest the gathering together addressed in End Times  will be as a punishment of the people for their abuses against the land. Hence when God returns them all to Israel, it is to gather them in punishment.


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## toastman (Jun 19, 2013)

Doesn't matter what you read Sherri, the land belong to the Jews NOW and always will. When will you stop crying over this ??


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## toastman (Jun 19, 2013)

Here yo go Sherri:
List of sovereign states - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Go down to 'Palestine'  , here's what it says

The declared State of Palestine has received diplomatic recognition from 132 states.[35] *The proclaimed state has no agreed territorial borders, or effective control on the territory that it proclaimed*.[36] The Palestinian National Authority is an interim administrative body formed as a result of the Oslo Accords that exercises limited autonomous jurisdiction within the Palestinian territories. In foreign relations, Palestine is represented by the Palestine Liberation Organization.[37] The State of Palestine is a member state of UNESCO,[38] and an observer state in the UN.

I bolded the most important line of that paragraph


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 19, 2013)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
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I  am not into or jealous of Zionist Jews or their Idolatry or their Chosen People Superiority complex which reeks of white supremacy ideals . Keep it all for yourself, I want no part of it. God and God alone owns the earth and all the lands in it.


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## toastman (Jun 19, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
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Israel belongs to the Jews now. This is not up for debate


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 19, 2013)

toastman said:


> Doesn't matter what you read Sherri, the land belong to the Jews NOW and always will. When will you stop crying over this ??



I reject your lies and I always shall. God alone owns the land, any land anywhere, whether in the US or Palestine. We people just have rights to live on some of it. Jesus says the meek shall inherit the land.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Jun 19, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
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Jews don't practice idolatry.  The first of the Ten Commandments is the most important.  Jews do not bow down or worship anything or anyone apart from G-d, and they do not bow down or pray to idols.  If anyone practices idolatry it is likely to be another religion, not Jews.  

So, you are one of those Jew-hating Christians.  Hmm, yes, I have come across your type before.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 19, 2013)

toastman said:


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Of course, it is up for debate. It is a lie and there will always be people who respond to lies with truth.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Jun 19, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Doesn't matter what you read Sherri, the land belong to the Jews NOW and always will. When will you stop crying over this ??
> ...



Well, it sure as hell won't be the Islamists.  They are anything but meek.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 19, 2013)

Sweet_Caroline said:


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Zionism is Idolatry. I am not accusing all Jews of Idolatry, all Jews are not Zionists. There are many Jews of conscience who I respect and admire.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 19, 2013)

Sweet_Caroline said:


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Meekness is  for individuals to choose to embrace or reject.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Jun 19, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


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Well, tell me (a Zionist by the way who believes that Israel is the land given by G-d to the Jews to live in and make the land bloom), what is idolatrous about Zionism.  

Are the "Jews of conscience" the left-wing type who couldn't give a toss about Israel, haven't been there, don't ever intend to go there, don't ever go to synagogue, etc.  

Are those the "Jews of conscience" you respect and admire.  

The ones who will quite willingly lie down and be annihilated without a fight?  

Well?


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 19, 2013)

Sweet_Caroline said:


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Putting Land before God is Idolatry, I am not afraid to speak these truths.


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## toastman (Jun 19, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


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I never said however that ONLY Jews can live there. But the country is fo the Jewish people, not the Palestinians. And it never will be


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## toastman (Jun 19, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> toastman said:
> 
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> > Now it's called Israel.
> ...



Go look at a current map and tell me what it says where you claim it to be Palestine.


Your response is always 'Zionists this' and 'Zionists that'
Are ou capable of coming up with a normal response, ever????

Why don't you call your travel agent, and ask her for a ticket to Palestine, then see what she tells you


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## peach174 (Jun 19, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> toastman said:
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> > Doesn't matter what you read Sherri, the land belong to the Jews NOW and always will. When will you stop crying over this ??
> ...



God owns everything and he gave the land to Israel.
Ishmael's decendants are the Muslums.
Isaac's decendants are the Jews.
Genesis 17:1-21 NIV - The Covenant of Circumcision - When - Bible Gateway

Genesis 17:8
The whole land of Canaan, where you now reside as a foreigner, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.

Genesis 17:19
19 Then God said, Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. 21 But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year.

Jesus said the meek shall inherit the Earth, not the land.
God gave the land to the Jews.
It says it in the Torah, the Bible and the Quran.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Jun 19, 2013)

It makes me laugh that people use the words Palestine when it has been called Israel since 1948.  The land was given to the Jews in 1922 by the UN, and countries have an obligation to encourage settlement of the Jews to the land.  That land is Jewish land.  Non-Jews living there as well as Jews should pledge allegiance to the State of Israel.


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## peach174 (Jun 19, 2013)

It's Yasser Arafat that made up the existence of Palestinians.
Palestinian and Palestinians do not exist, it had been made up.
Palestinian people do not exist


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## Hossfly (Jun 19, 2013)

peach174 said:


> It's Yasser Arafat that made up the existence of Palestinians.
> Palestinian and Palestinians do not exist, it had been made up.
> Palestinian people do not exist


How right you are, Peach.  As a former poster who was retired from the State Department once said...............

Sure there was a Palestine. It was invented in the 1960s in a conference room at 1 Lubyanka, Dzershinsky Place, Red Square, Moscow, CCCP. It came complete with a "Palestinian people" too. In fact, its legacy leader was trained east of Moscow at the legendary Balashikha special-ops school.


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## peach174 (Jun 19, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
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They are not putting land before God.
God promised the Jews that they would have their land back in the end times. That promise has been fulfilled by God.
This promise and the fact that Christianity would be preached to the whole world, was the 2 key things for Christians to know that we are in end times.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Jun 19, 2013)

peach174 said:


> It's Yasser Arafat that made up the existence of Palestinians.
> Palestinian and Palestinians do not exist, it had been made up.
> Palestinian people do not exist




Exactly, and here is one "Palestinian" saying so.  

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwBSWN4s9JU]palestinians are a myth says hamas member "they are just saudis and egyptians" - YouTube[/ame]


Taken from text on Youtube link.  

"Palestinian" common family names:

Just like "Saddam Hussein al-Tikriti" born in "tikrit iraq"
The family names(Nisbah &#1606;&#1587;&#1576;&#1577 of Arabs who now occupy judea reveal their country of origin:
"Masri" OR "al-masri" =from Egypt ,Hamas member of Parliament in gaza, Mushir al-Masri (the word "masri" littelery means "the egyption" in arabic !).

"Khamis"= from Bahrain "Salem Hanna Khamis"
"al-ubayyidi" or "al-Obeidi"= from sudan "al-ubayyid" 
"al-Faruqi"= Mosul iraq 
"al-Araj" = Morocco,a member of the Saadi Dynasty "Hussein al-Araj"
"al-Lubnani" =the lebanese
"al-Mughrabi" = the Moroccan ("Maghreb" -- meaning "West" in Arabic, and usually referring to North Africa or specifically to Morocco) ,"Dalal Mughrabi"
"al-Djazair"=the Algerian
"al-Qurashi"=saudi arabia "clan of Quraish" 
"al-azd" =yemen "Azd tribe"
"al-Yamani"= the Yemeni "Issam Al Yamani"
"al-Afghani" = the Afghan
"Al-Sidawi" = from "Sidon" lebanon
"Al-fayyumi" = from "Faiyum" egypt
"al-Hijazi" or "Hijazi" = present-day saudi arabia "Ahlam Higazi, a "Palestinian" artist from Hebron"
"al-Hindi" =the Indian "Amin al-Hindi"
"al-Tamimi" or "Tamimi" = from the tribe or clan of Banu-Tamim "Azzam Tamimi"
"Hamati" = from syria ( HAMA city)
"Omayya" = from saudi arabia "Banu Omayya tribe" "Omayya Joha" "palestinian artist" "
"Othman" = turkey
"murad" =yemen "murad tribe"
"Alawi" = from syria (minority religious group in syria)
"Iraqi" =from Iraq.
"halabi" =from aleppo syria 
"Dajani"= from saudi arabia 
"Mattar" = from YEMEN (the village of BANI Mattar)
"al-baghdadi"= from bagdad iraq.
"Tarabulsi"= Tarabulus-Tripoli, Lebanon.
"Hourani" =Houran Syria.
"Zubeidi"= from iraq "Zubeidi tribe" "Zakaria Zubeidi"
"al-Husayni" =saudi arabia.
"Saudi" =Saudi Arabia.
"Metzarwah"=egypt.
"Barda***********wil" ="salah bardawil" HAMAS legislator in gaza,egypt "bardawil lake" area
"nashashibi"= syria.
"Bushnak" =bosnia
"zoabi"= from iraq "Haneen Zoabi".
"Turki" =turkey "Daud Turki"
"al-Kurd" = kurdistan.
"Haddadins" = YEMEN descended from Ghassanid Christian Arabs.
"Arab Abu-Kishk" = Egypt.(Bedouins)
"Arab al shakirat" = Egypt (Bedouins)
"Arab al zabidat" = Egypt (Bedouins)
"Arab al aramsha" = Egypt (Bedouins)
"Abu Sitta" =In Arabic' Abu means father and sitta means six. Translated it actually means father of six. The Abu Sitta family primarily received this name because around the year 1700, a well known knight of the large Al-Tarabeen tribe always had six slaves (i.e. fedawyah, bodyguards), 3 on each side, with him. They were with him wherever he went, day or night. Hence the name "ABU SITTA." =Egypt (Bedouins) "Salman Abu Sitta "
"Nuba, Hebron" =founded by the "nuba people"
Even "Arafat", the most famous fakestinian and leader of the terrorist grup the  P.L.O, is not native to judea. He called himself a "Palestinian refugee" and claimed he was born in jerusalem ! BUT spoke
Arabic with Egyptian dialect. He was born in 1929 Cairo, Egypt. He served in the Egyptian army, studied in the University of Cairo, and lived in Cairo until 1956 !
Arafat's full name was Mohammed Abdel Rahman Abdel Raouf Arafat al-Qudwa al-Husseini.
"Al-Qudwa" tribe origin?


-Professor Azmi Bishara(Arabic: &#1593;&#1586;&#1605;&#1610; &#1576;&#1588;&#1575;&#1585;&#1577-- a "palestinian arab"
"There is no "palestinian nation" !
when were there any Palestinians??? LOL
until the end of the 19th century, Palestine was the south of "Greater Syria" another resent invention.
there is only an arab nation !
the word "palestine" its self is a colonial invention used by the romans in order to erase the jewish identity of judea and israel.
even the "Palestinian National Charter" recognizes all the jews living in the region prior to the 1948 war as "palestinians" !
its an intellectual fad, divorced from the concerns of uneducated people"




-Zuheir Mohsen (Arabic: &#1586;&#1607;&#1610;&#1585; &#1605;&#1581;&#1587;&#1606- top p.l.o member responsible for Damour massacre.
Damour massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"The "Palestinian people" does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a "Palestinian people"


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 20, 2013)




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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 20, 2013)

400 BC, Herodotus wrote about Palestine. I will believe Herodotus and reject Zionist Hasbara of ZioNazis. MEMRI, what a joke!


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 20, 2013)

Herodotus, speaking of circumcision, gives us an interesting text in*Euterpe*that includes Syria in Palestine,   "The Phoenicians and the Syrians of Palestine themselves confess that they learnt the custom of the Egyptians; and the Syrians...say that they have recently adopted it from the Colchians. Now these are the only nations who use circumcision, and it is plain that they all imitate herein the Egyptians. " *Euterpe II.104.  Palestine vs Israel | Map of the land of Israel and Palestine in the ancient world, Palestinian and Hellenized Jews, Palestine vs Israel, Zola Levitt, Thomas McCall, Josephus, Philo, Aristotle, Herodotus, Strabo, Emperor Hadrian, map in jesus time, b


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 20, 2013)

"Again if, as is fabled, there is a lake in Palestine, such that*if you bind a man or beast and throw it in it floats and does not sink,*this would bear out what we have said. They say that this lake is so bitter*and salt that no fish live in it and that if you soak clothes in it and*shake them it cleans them.  The Internet Classics Archive | Meteorology by Aristotle Aristotle writes about Palestine too.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 20, 2013)

Lucullus  The Internet Classics Archive | Lucullus by Plutarch Plutarch writes of Palestine in Lucullus.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 20, 2013)

"Furthermore, it is but a little way from the country of the Cabirenians unto the realm of Armenia, where Tigranes the king of kings inhabiteth, whose power is so great, that he driveth the Parthians out of Asia, and carrieth whole towns and cities of Greece unto the realna of.- Media, who hath all Syria and*Palestine*in his*hands, and hath slain and rooted out the kings and to his successors of the great Seleucus, and hath carried soldiers away their wives and daughters prisoners by force.*"  Plutarch&#39;s Lives: Lysander.-Sulla.-Cimon.-Lucullus.-Nicias - Plutarch - Google Books


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 20, 2013)




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## ForeverYoung436 (Jun 20, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Umb82Rqtafw&feature=youtube_gdata_player



The Romans renamed Judea Palestine.  So what?  It appears that you've never read the Old Testament.  Now I have nothing against atheists, agnostics, people of Eastern religions, etc.  But for a person who calls herself a Christian to know nothing about three-quarters of her own Bible, or to deny there was ever an Israel or Judea, is ludicrous.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Jun 20, 2013)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
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I think Sherri is one of those "Jews killed Jesus" Christians, and she doesn't forgive the Jews for that.


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## toastman (Jun 20, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Umb82Rqtafw&feature=youtube_gdata_player



The land was named Palestine AFTER the fall of Historic Israel
In fact, Palestine is not mentioned in the Christian Bible. 
Stop lying


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 20, 2013)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
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Herodotus wrote of Palestine 400 years before Romans named a province Syria Palestina. Christian Bibles for hundreds of years have been published that contain maps of Palestine when Jesus lived there. I posted a you tube video addressing this. Israel was created in 1948, the land has been called Palestine for 2400 years.


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## toastman (Jun 20, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


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Please show us the part of the Christian Bible where it mentions Palestine


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## toastman (Jun 20, 2013)

Jesus lived in Palestine ? That has got to be the dumbest thing you've said, and that's saying a lot. Why do you find it necessary to re-write history?
You go through incredible lengths to de- legitimize Israel. What a fucking joke


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 20, 2013)

I posted a video documenting Bible Maps of Palestine when Jesus lived there. Jesus was a Palestinian who lived in Palestine.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 20, 2013)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
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No. Herodotus the Greek wrote of Palestine in 400BC.


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## toastman (Jun 20, 2013)

You didn't answer my question. I asked you to show us the part of the Christian Bible where it says Jesus lived in Palestine


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## Hyrcanus (Jun 20, 2013)

Comparing the Native Americans to the Jews of Palestine is silly.

60% of Jews in Israel today are descended from European Jews, not native Jews or even Jews from the region.

There is a historical statute of limitations to call a people "natives".

1,500 years seems to sound fair.


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## toastman (Jun 20, 2013)

Sherri ran away from my question again. What a surprise


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## Hossfly (Jun 23, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> Comparing the Native Americans to the Jews of Palestine is silly.
> 
> 60% of Jews in Israel today are descended from European Jews, not native Jews or even Jews from the region.
> 
> ...


Would it be great if Hyrcanus can give us a legitimate site which states that most of the Jews in Israel have a  European background.  I have read in he past that it was exactly the opposite -- that most of the Jews in Israel have a Middle Eastern background.  It would also be great if Hyrcanus can shows us something about this "historical statute of limitations" since I don't think many of us have ever heard about this.


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## Hyrcanus (Jun 23, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> Would it be great if Hyrcanus can give us a legitimate site which states that most of the Jews in Israel have a  European background....



Last time I looked into this, it only listed the ethnicity of immigrants to Israel.

It now appears that the Jewish population in Israel is about 50/50 Ashkenazi and Sephardic/Mizrahi Jews.

Demographics of Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## 50_RiaL (Jun 23, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> I posted a video documenting Bible Maps of Palestine when Jesus lived there. Jesus was a Palestinian who lived in Palestine.



Palestine.Palestinian not mentioned even once in the New Testament. You must be readin' from the BDS NT version.


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## Hyrcanus (Jun 23, 2013)

50_RiaL said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
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> 
> > I posted a video documenting Bible Maps of Palestine when Jesus lived there. Jesus was a Palestinian who lived in Palestine.
> ...



Judaea was renamed "Palaestina" after the Bar Kochba revolt.


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## Coyote (Jun 23, 2013)

toastman said:


> Jesus lived in Palestine ? That has got to be the dumbest thing you've said, and that's saying a lot. Why do you find it necessary to re-write history?
> You go through incredible lengths to de- legitimize Israel. What a fucking joke



Maybe not so dumb.


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## 50_RiaL (Jun 23, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


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So Judaea precedes "Palestina"?  No wonder the Jews are fightin' so tenaciously for their land!


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 23, 2013)

. Bible Maps before Israel, the creation of a nation in 1948 does not wipe out over 2000 years of History recording a land called Palestine.


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## toastman (Jun 23, 2013)

Coyote said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Jesus lived in Palestine ? That has got to be the dumbest thing you've said, and that's saying a lot. Why do you find it necessary to re-write history?
> ...



Jesus lived in Judea, not Palestina.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 23, 2013)

Judea was a Roman province.  And it  was not the name to describe all of the land of Palestine. And Jesus did not live in Judea, He lived in the province of Galilee, in the city of Nazareth.


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## Coyote (Jun 23, 2013)

toastman said:


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I thought he lived during Roman times....

Where's Judea on the Roman maps?  I see a Palestina, but no Judea.


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## toastman (Jun 23, 2013)

Judea was BEFORE Palestine. It is where Jesus lived


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## 50_RiaL (Jun 23, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
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> > Would it be great if Hyrcanus can give us a legitimate site which states that most of the Jews in Israel have a  European background....
> ...



Mizrahi outnumber Ashkenazi . . . are the Mizrahi to be shipped to Russia?


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## MHunterB (Jun 23, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> Comparing the Native Americans to the Jews of Palestine is silly.
> 
> 60% of Jews in Israel today are descended from European Jews, not native Jews or even Jews from the region.
> 
> ...




Demographics of Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ethnic Makeup of Jewish Population of Israel[citation needed]

TOTAL 5,818,000 100% 
Mizrahi Jews and Sephardic Jews 2,921,000 *50.2% *

I see you corrected this error:  I appreciate that.  Here is an article on the results of some genetic investigation which you may find of interest:  http://cryptojews.com/comparing-dna-patterns-of-sephardi-ashkenazi-kurdish-jews/


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## MHunterB (Jun 23, 2013)

Coyote said:


> toastman said:
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The Romans changed the name from 'Judea'  to 'Syria Palestina' after 135 CE.  So in Jesus' time and for a century afterwards, it was still officially 'Judea'.


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## toastman (Jun 23, 2013)

Coyote said:


> toastman said:
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Where's Palestine in the Bible? Palestina was the name of the land AFTER Jesus dies.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 23, 2013)

The name Palestine predated the Roman Empire's Occupation of the land of Palestine


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## Hyrcanus (Jun 23, 2013)

50_RiaL said:


> Mizrahi outnumber Ashkenazi . . . are the Mizrahi to be shipped to Russia?



why would i want to ship anyone, anywhere?


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## toastman (Jun 23, 2013)

So Jesus lived in Palestine, but it's not mentioned once on the Bible ??


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 23, 2013)

The*history of Palestine*is the study of the past in the region of*Palestine, the geographic region in Western Asia between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River, and various adjoining lands. Situated at a strategic location between*Egypt,Syria*and*Arabia, and the birthplace of majorAbrahamic religions,[citation needed]*the region has a long and tumultuous history as a crossroads for religion, culture, commerce, and politics. Palestine has been controlled by numerous different peoples, including the*Ancient Egyptians,Canaanites,*Ancient Israelites,*Assyrians,Babylonians,*Persians,*Ancient Greeks,*Romans,Byzantines, the*Muslims, the*Crusaders,*Ayyubids,Mameluks,*Ottomans, the*British, The*Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan*(1948-1967) and modernIsraelis*and*Palestinians. Other terms for the same area include*Canaan,*Zion, the*Land of Israel,*Southern Syria,*Jund Filastin,*Outremer, theHoly Land*and the*Southern Levant.  History of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 23, 2013)

I keep posting Bible Maps, parts of Christian Bibles, showing the land was called Palestine. Maps of Palestine are there for all to see.


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## Hyrcanus (Jun 23, 2013)

toastman said:


> So Jesus lived in Palestine, but it's not mentioned once on the Bible ??



Jesus lived in Judaea.

who's name was changed to Palaestine about 100 years after Jesus died.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 23, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



No,  Judea was just one of multiple provinces in Paledtine under Roman Occupation. Jedus did not even live in the Roman province of Judea.


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## toastman (Jun 23, 2013)

Not when he lived there. Not according to the old testament. 

Where is Palestine mentioned in the bible ?
Also, the inhabitants of Palestina were Roman, Jews and Philistines. Not Arabs. So it has no connection to today;s so called Palestine. 
Arabs came from Arabia, remember ?


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## Hossfly (Jun 23, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Would it be great if Hyrcanus can give us a legitimate site which states that most of the Jews in Israel have a  European background....
> ...


Yes, it does look from your site, that you were wrong about stating that the majority of Israeli Jews have a European background.  In fact, I think for years and years the readers of these forums knew all about all these Middle Eastern Jews.  Meanwhile, here's an interesting piece you might enjoy which will show you why so many of these Middle Eastern Jews are now living in Israel.
Who is an Arab Jew? by Albert Memmi


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 23, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > So Jesus lived in Palestine, but it's not mentioned once on the Bible ??
> ...



No, He lived in the Roman province of Galilee in the land called Palestine, under Roman Occupation. Much today is similar to what it was then. The land is still Palestine and it is under foreign Occupation.


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## Hyrcanus (Jun 23, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> No,  Judea was just one of multiple provinces in Paledtine under Roman Occupation. Jesus did not even live in the Roman province of Judea.



Absolutely wrong.  Jesus lived and preached in Judaea.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 23, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > No,  Judea was just one of multiple provinces in Paledtine under Roman Occupation. Jesus did not even live in the Roman province of Judea.
> ...



He lived in Nazareth and that is in the province of Galilee.


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## 50_RiaL (Jun 23, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> The*history of Palestine*is the study of the past in the region of*Palestine, the geographic region in Western Asia between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River, and various adjoining lands. Situated at a strategic location between*Egypt,Syria*and*Arabia, and the birthplace of majorAbrahamic religions,[citation needed]*the region has a long and tumultuous history as a crossroads for religion, culture, commerce, and politics. Palestine has been controlled by numerous different peoples, including the*Ancient Egyptians,Canaanites,*Ancient Israelites,*Assyrians,Babylonians,*Persians,*Ancient Greeks,*Romans,Byzantines, the*Muslims, the*Crusaders,*Ayyubids,Mameluks,*Ottomans, the*British, The*Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan*(1948-1967) and modernIsraelis*and*Palestinians. Other terms for the same area include*Canaan,*Zion, the*Land of Israel,*Southern Syria,*Jund Filastin,*Outremer, theHoly Land*and the*Southern Levant.  History of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia





The earliest mention of the Holy Land as Palestine (probably in reference to the Philistines, a non-Arabic, non-Semitic people from the Greek Isles who invaded the southern coast of the Holy Land in the 2nd half of the 12th century BCE) is by the Greek historian, Herodotus (5th Century BCE).

In contrast, one of the earliest mention of the Holy Land as Israel is the archaeological find, the Mesha Stele by King Mesha of Moab (present-day Jordan) 400 years earlier in the 9th Century BCE, where he writes: "As for Omri, king of Israel, he humbled Moab many years . . ."

(The Mesha Stele/Moabite Stone is housed in The Louvre in Paris, France.)

So, now you know: Israel precedes Palestine.


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## toastman (Jun 23, 2013)

He didn't just live in one place. He was born in Bethlehem and traveled throughout different lands


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## Coyote (Jun 23, 2013)

toastman said:


> Not when he lived there. Not according to the old testament.
> 
> Where is Palestine mentioned in the bible ?
> Also, the inhabitants of Palestina were Roman, Jews and Philistines. Not Arabs. So it has no connection to today;s so called Palestine.
> Arabs came from Arabia, remember ?



That's not true either.

Palestinians are mutts, not Arabs - they included Jews, and descendents of all the peoples that lived in that area.


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## toastman (Jun 23, 2013)

Coyote said:


> toastman said:
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> > Not when he lived there. Not according to the old testament.
> ...



Wait, Palestinians today are not Arabs ?


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 23, 2013)

History of Palestine

Following the*Roman*conquest of Judea led byPompey*in 63 BCE,*Aulus Gabinius, proconsul ofSyria, split the former Hasmonean Kingdom into five districts of legal and religious councils known as*sanhedrin*based at Jerusalem,*Sepphoris(Galilee),*Jericho, Amathus (Perea) andGadara.[67][68]*Roman rule was solidified whenHerod, whose dynasty was of*Idumean*ancestry, was appointed as king.[50][69]*Following a brief intervention by*Pacorus I of Parthia, from 37Iudaea*under*Herod I*was a client kingdom of theRoman Empire.In 132 CE, the Emperor*Hadrian*joined the province of Iudaea (comprising Samaria, Judea proper, and Idumea) with*Galilee*to form new province of*Syria Palaestina.  *History of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## toastman (Jun 23, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> History of Palestine
> 
> Following the*Roman*conquest of Judea led byPompey*in 63 BCE,*Aulus Gabinius, proconsul ofSyria, split the former Hasmonean Kingdom into five districts of legal and religious councils known as*sanhedrin*based at Jerusalem,*Sepphoris(Galilee),*Jericho, Amathus (Perea) andGadara.[67][68]*Roman rule was solidified whenHerod, whose dynasty was of*Idumean*ancestry, was appointed as king.[50][69]*Following a brief intervention by*Pacorus I of Parthia, from 37Iudaea*under*Herod I*was a client kingdom of theRoman Empire.In 132 CE, the Emperor*Hadrian*joined the province of Iudaea (comprising Samaria, Judea proper, and Idumea) with*Galilee*to form new province of*Syria Palaestina.  *History of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Jesus is not mentioned in that link. Not once.
I'm not disputing that the land was at one point called Syria Palestina,


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 23, 2013)

toastman said:


> He didn't just live in one place. He was born in Bethlehem and traveled throughout different lands



He was born in a stable in Bethlehem, lived in Egypt for a period of time, and then His family moved to Nazareth, a village in Galilee in Palestine. The last three years of His life He traveled throughout Palestine sharing His Gospel with the people of Palestine.


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## Coyote (Jun 23, 2013)

toastman said:


> Coyote said:
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They are Arab culturally and linguistically due to the Arabization of the region, but genetically they are descendants of Arabs, Aramaean, Canaanites, and Greeks.  Makes them mutts.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 23, 2013)

toastman said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > History of Palestine
> ...



The link is a Wikipedia article addressing the History of Palestine. Jesus lived there when the land was under Roman Occupation.


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## toastman (Jun 23, 2013)

Yes, and nowhere in the History of Palestine is Jesus mentioned


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## Coyote (Jun 23, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> toastman said:
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He did but, it looks like it wasn't changed to Palestina until after his death so it was still Judea during his life


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## Hossfly (Jun 23, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Hyrcanus said:
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It is obvious that Frau Sherri doesn't recognize the State of Israel, which is not surprising since many of her Muslim buddies don't either.  However, Frau Sherri, whether you like it or not, Israel does exist.  Poor Jesus, if only He knew how Frau Sherri distorts history when it comes to the Jews, but doesn't care a fig about what is happening to Jesus' followers in the Muslim world.


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 24, 2013)

Coyote said:


> toastman said:
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Indeed, Palestinians are Arab like Americans are English.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Jun 24, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
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Frau Sherri is miffed because Jesus and the disciples and followers were Jewish.  She can't get over that.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 24, 2013)

Coyote said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
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The land began being called Palestine when Herodotus lived and included what later became multiple Roman Provinces, to include Judea and Galilee. Jesus lived in the Roman Province of Galilee and in the land called Palestine.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 24, 2013)

"Jesus was a Palestinian Jew. He would have grown up with stories of conquest and oppression. These stories recounted the many waves of foreign invasion that sought to subjugate the Jewish people. The Roman occupation of Israel (63 BCE.) was the last in a long line of invasions beginning with the Babylonians (539 BCE), then the Persians and the Greeks. Jewish identity also rested on stories of the Patriarchs--Abraham, Isaac and Jacob--as well as the founding story of the Moses-led liberation from the Egyptians at the Exodus. There were yet other stories that recounted successful self-rule under the Hebrew kings Saul, David and Solomon. However, history records that the Jewish people were more often the victims than the victors in their fight for national sovereignty.Jesus was a Nazarene. He lived most of his life in the town of Nazareth within the province of Galilee. Although a small village, Nazareth was close to the metropolitan centres of Tiberias and Sepphoris. Unlike those predominantly Gentile (non-Jewish) cities, Nazareth was a Jewish enclave. It was also relatively poor and overpopulated; there was a scarcity of natural resources such as water and fertile soil. In such a situation, there tended to be a fair amount of sickness and disease. Nonetheless, Nazareth could not be called destitute. Jesus came from a family of craftsmen or carpenters which suggests a reasonable socio-economic standard of living."  THE WORLD OF JESUS' TIME Life in Galilee


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jun 24, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> Coyote said:
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Are you for real?  Their language, food, clothing, music, and culture are all Arabic.  They are part of the larger Arab nation.


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## Hyrcanus (Jun 24, 2013)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Are you for real?  Their language, food, clothing, music, and culture are all Arabic.  They are part of the larger Arab nation.



Culturally?  yes.

genetically they are a mixture of all the various peoples' who have occupied Palestine, including Arabs, Egyptians, Israelites, Greeks, Romans, Phillistines, Phoenecians, Kurds, Persians, etc.


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## Hossfly (Jun 25, 2013)

Coyote said:


> toastman said:
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But what about the Arabs who came from their poor surrounding countries in droves when the Jews had jobs for them?  Didn't one of the leaders in Egypt recently ask the Gazans to come home to Egypt?  It wasn't only Mark Twain who observed very few Arabs (mainly Bedouins) on his journey through the Holy Land, but there were others who reported the same.


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## Hyrcanus (Jun 25, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> But what about the Arabs who came from their poor surrounding countries in droves when the Jews had jobs for them?  Didn't one of the leaders in Egypt recently ask the Gazans to come home to Egypt?  It wasn't only Mark Twain who observed very few Arabs (mainly Bedouins) on his journey through the Holy Land, but there were others who reported the same.



The Arab growth rate in Palestine from 1922 to 1948 is exactly the same as it was the following 26 years.


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## Hossfly (Jun 25, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > But what about the Arabs who came from their poor surrounding countries in droves when the Jews had jobs for them?  Didn't one of the leaders in Egypt recently ask the Gazans to come home to Egypt?  It wasn't only Mark Twain who observed very few Arabs (mainly Bedouins) on his journey through the Holy Land, but there were others who reported the same.
> ...


You don't say?  I think I will have to disagree with you just as I disagree with the Turks who have said there was no genocide against the Armenians.  Aren't forums great???  We are allowed to disagree with each other whereas in certain parts of the world we would be thrown in jail if we don't follow the government line.
Jews to no one's land


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## Coyote (Jun 25, 2013)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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In the same sense that we are very English in  food, clothing, music, and culture.   Are we part of the larger British nation?


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## RoccoR (Jun 25, 2013)

Hossfly, Hyrcanus, _et al,_

I must be reading this chart wrong.  Not that it makes much difference to the point.



Hossfly said:


> Hyrcanus said:
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*(REFERENCEs)*


http://www.cbs.gov.il/statistical/arabju.pdf

Population Statistics - Israeli-Palestinian Conflict - ProCon.org

Demographics of the Palestinian territories - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*(COMMENT)*

I guess it depends on the area in question.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jun 25, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Are you for real?  Their language, food, clothing, music, and culture are all Arabic.  They are part of the larger Arab nation.
> ...



Yeah, that's the Palestinian party line, but who knows if that's true.  Let's dissect your post.  The ancient Egyptians never occupied Israel/Judea.  I've never really heard of Kurds in Israel.  Now, Sherri even posted a document attesting to the fact that Arabs from Arabia were constantly replenishing "Palestine".  She did so unwittingly because she was a notorious anti-Semite.  In any event, a Palestinian recently won the Arab Idol contest, so they're Arabs.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jun 25, 2013)

Coyote said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
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In some senses.  I really enjoyed the two British Invasions of rock/pop music, in the '60's and 80's.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jun 25, 2013)

Coyote said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
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The Palestinians always want the approval of the Arab League in any peace-deal that they're contemplating with Israel.  And if Palestine ever becomes fully independent, they will most definitely opt to join that same league.  We, on the other hand, are not part of the British Commenwealth, which includes Canada and Australia.


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## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 25, 2013)

I'm sorry...

Are we SERIOUSLY arguing as to whether the "Palestinians" are Arabs?

Really?

Let's ask the "Palestinians" themselves, shall we:



> *Palestinian Constitution*
> 
> ARTICLE 1
> 
> Palestine is part of the large Arab World, and the Palestinian people are part of the Arab Nation. Arab Unity is an objective which the Palestinian People shall work to achieve.



Any questions?


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## toastman (Jun 25, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> I'm sorry...
> 
> Are we SERIOUSLY arguing as to whether the "Palestinians" are Arabs?
> 
> ...



I believe it was Coyote who said they were not Arabs, or something like that. 
I don't know how anyone can come up with such a claim.


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 25, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> I'm sorry...
> 
> Are we SERIOUSLY arguing as to whether the "Palestinians" are Arabs?
> 
> ...



Yes.

What does it matter?


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jun 25, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> HistoryBefore67 said:
> 
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> > I'm sorry...
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Because the greedy Arabs want to take away the one Jewish country in the world to create a 23rd Arab one.  And it's you, personally, who wants not only the West Bank and Gaza, but Tel-Aviv and Haifa as well.


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## toastman (Jun 25, 2013)

Tinmore, I would like to ask you a personal question. Of course feel free to say no:

Are you Arab and or Muslim? Or at least part Arab?


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## Coyote (Jun 25, 2013)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Hyrcanus said:
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People move in many directions.

No one is denying that they are Arab in culture/language/food - as are the indiginous jews,  but physically, they descend from a number of non-Arab peoples as well as Arabs.

The lie that is perpetrated is that they are descendents of recent Arab invasions ignoring an older mixture of heritages underlying the Arabs.  It's little more than an attempt to marginalize their claims. 

In the end it makes no difference and the fact that the argument is still being attempted is as dishonest and bigoted as the argument that Jews are recent immigrants from Europe.


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## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 25, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> HistoryBefore67 said:
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It matters because some people here think they make up their own facts.


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## P F Tinmore (Jun 25, 2013)

toastman said:


> Tinmore, I would like to ask you a personal question. Of course feel free to say no:
> 
> Are you Arab and or Muslim? Or at least part Arab?



I don't think so.

My mother's father was born in Germany and came to the states after WWI. Her mother was Pennsylvania Dutch.

My father was English and Scott.

I am a non denominational Christian.


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## toastman (Jun 25, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Tinmore, I would like to ask you a personal question. Of course feel free to say no:
> ...



Oh ok. Thanks for answering


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## Hyrcanus (Jun 25, 2013)

toastman said:


> Tinmore, I would like to ask you a personal question. Of course feel free to say no:
> 
> Are you Arab and or Muslim? Or at least part Arab?



How about we NOT personalize the argument, k?


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## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 25, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> toastman said:
> 
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> > Tinmore, I would like to ask you a personal question. Of course feel free to say no:
> ...



Why do you care if one poster asks a question and another chooses to answer it?

Is it because you are incapable of answering direct questions (i.e. who are these supposed right wing Zionists who advocate deporting or killing all "Palestinians"?)


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## Hossfly (Jun 25, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
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> > Tinmore, I would like to ask you a personal question. Of course feel free to say no:
> ...


These Arabs are such liars.  I can claim I am  a direct descendent of Pocahontas if I felt like it on a message board.  Only an Arab would keep on saying that Israel is inside Palestine and would keep on disputing what Rocco says even though Rocco no doubt is right.


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## toastman (Jun 25, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> toastman said:
> 
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> > Tinmore, I would like to ask you a personal question. Of course feel free to say no:
> ...



I wasn't talking to you pal, so mind you own business. He chose to respond to my question and he did so respectfully, so you can move along if you don't like my question


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## Hyrcanus (Jun 25, 2013)

toastman said:


> I wasn't talking to you pal, so mind you own business. He chose to respond to my question and he did so respectfully.



I shall respond to any post I want to.


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## RoccoR (Jun 25, 2013)

_et al,_

I always get confused.  They write so many of these things, (flip-flopping like a chicken with a broken neck).



HistoryBefore67 said:


> I'm sorry...
> 
> Are we SERIOUSLY arguing as to whether the "Palestinians" are Arabs?
> 
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Is this from the one in 1968, 1994, 1993, 2003 or something newer.  I simply have a hard time keeping track?

Most Respectfully,
R


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## sealadaigh (Jun 25, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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you would pick rebecca rolfe to claim as ancestry...an shoneen mor.


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## Hossfly (Jun 25, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> Hossfly said:
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Why not?


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## Jroc (Jun 25, 2013)

Coyote said:


> toastman said:
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> > Not when he lived there. Not according to the old testament.
> ...



"Palestinians" are the same people as Jordan's ,Syrians, Lebanese no different...They already have their countries and the Jews have theirs.... Get over it


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## Hossfly (Jun 26, 2013)

reabhloideach said:


> Hossfly said:
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And you can claim someone as your ancestor who is 
un asino con una brutta faccia.


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## High_Gravity (Jun 26, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


> Hey Dudes, I'm a newbie to the subject and wanted to explore the below comparison:
> 
> Israel was the home of the Jews long ago, but over time (via numerous historical events) it eventually fell into the hands of the Muslims.
> 
> ...



I'd probably move.


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## Vikrant (Jun 26, 2013)

I thought we were going to discuss The Book of Mormons in here.


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## rylah (Jan 15, 2019)

Coyote said:


> toastman said:
> 
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SherriMunnerlyn said:


> . Bible Maps before Israel, the creation of a nation in 1948 does not wipe out over 2000 years of History recording a land called Palestine.




For the especially challenged

*What Those "Palestine" Maps Really Show*


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