# What's your kitchen like?



## nt250 (Sep 3, 2006)

Has anyone remodeled their kitchen?

I did mine last year.  It was the best money I ever spent.  What a difference having a nice kitchen makes when it comes to quality of life.  I'm no gourmet cook, but everytime I go in my kitchen now I just can't help feeling happy.

For anyone who's thinking of it, just do it.  You won't be sorry.  Remodeling a kitchen is the best investment you can make.  Not only for re-sale value, but just for the everyday comfort that comes from having a really nice kitchen.

Some advice:

Put your money in the things that are permanent.  Buy the best solid wood cabinets you can afford.  Get granite counters.  Beg, steal, or borrow the money, but get granite.  Get good quality flooring.  That's where your real money should go.  Cabinets, counters, the floor.

Everything else, from faucets to light fixtures to the appliances, are easily replaced.  But, if you have the budget for brand new appliances, get them.  And get stainless steel applliances.  They make a huge difference in how the kitchen looks.  Even a low end stainless steel appliance looks classier than a high end white one.  

The best piece of advise I got was from a co-worker who told me that I should buy all new appliances.  I wasn't going to.  The stove and fridge in the house I bought were fairly new.  I was going to just put them back in.  But my co-worker told me that I wouldn't be happy with them.  I'm glad I listened.  I went to Sears, and I got all brand new stainless steel appliances at 0% interest for a year, and I love them.  My kitchen is all brand new and it's wonderful.

I went 5 months without a kitchen.  I had a fridge through all of it, and most of the time I had my stove.  But I had no water.  I had to do dishes in the bathroom.  We ate a lot of pasta.  A lot of sandwiches.  And we had a lot of take out.  But when it was finally over it was worth it all.  And a year, and $25,000 later, it's like a distant dream.

I highly recommend kitchen renovation to anyone living with a shitty kitchen.


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## Nienna (Sep 3, 2006)

My kitchen is fairly large, but one thing I would add is a breakfast bar/peninsula with stools. One thing I LOVE about my kitchen is the large built-in pantry! 

Our appliances are white. I would never get white again. We are still going back & forth about getting stainless or black. My husband likes the stainless; I like the black. I just wonder which is easier to keep clean?

Also, we have tile flooring. I would NEVER do this again in the kitchen! Drop a heavy pan and the tile chips. Also, when I spend long days in the kitchen (like Christmas cookie baking days), my feet & back really hurt from standing on the tile all day. When we build our new house, we are going with hardwood; it has more "give."

But, I agree that investing in the kitchen is a smart move.


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## Annie (Sep 3, 2006)

Nienna said:


> My kitchen is fairly large, but one thing I would add is a breakfast bar/peninsula with stools. One thing I LOVE about my kitchen is the large built-in pantry!
> 
> Our appliances are white. I would never get white again. We are still going back & forth about getting stainless or black. My husband likes the stainless; I like the black. I just wonder which is easier to keep clean?
> 
> ...



I would love to be able to 'do' my kitchen, just can't afford it. However, I just had it painted and it's gorgeous! Sort of an olive green, with white ceilings and woodwork. I had the cabinets painted white, though I would love to replace them. I am putting in wood floors, in a few weeks. 

I have all white appliances and they go well with my look. My friend just redid her kitchen, which is large, from floor up. Over $50k. All stainless appliances including a Subzero fridge, and she is not happy. Because 'fingerprints' bug her, she wishes she had gone textured, white or black. Her husband is not going to let her change those appliances, ever. She is over 60!


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## archangel (Sep 3, 2006)

Don't live in my kitchen...but when I get bored I just BBQ or go out to eat...mo' cheaper...I'm just a guy so what else can I say!


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## pegwinn (Sep 3, 2006)

archangel said:


> Don't live in my kitchen...but when I get bored I just BBQ or go out to eat...mo' cheaper...I'm just a guy so what else can I say!



I am a guy. My idea of the perfect kitchen is one made of stone.  Stone allows heat to build up fast and retains it to slowly radiate out.  Granite is a great idea for counter tops.  I also prefer wood over tile for flooring.  But I'd use decking material which not only gives when my cast iron pots hit it, but is sealed against moisture so spills don't stain it.  My kitchen is gas since I feel that it is more efficient than electricity and heats quicker.  Gas flame will light the charcoal or wood without affecting taste.

The kitchen inside the house?  I don't know, but I'll ask my wife.


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## archangel (Sep 3, 2006)

pegwinn said:


> I am a guy. My idea of the perfect kitchen is one made of stone.  Stone allows heat to build up fast and retains it to slowly radiate out.  Granite is a great idea for counter tops.  I also prefer wood over tile for flooring.  But I'd use decking material which not only gives when my cast iron pots hit it, but is sealed against moisture so spills don't stain it.  My kitchen is gas since I feel that it is more efficient than electricity and heats quicker.  Gas flame will light the charcoal or wood without affecting taste.
> 
> The kitchen inside the house?  I don't know, but I'll ask my wife.




and the view changes daily...without the rediculous cost...mo' money for the toys...then again I am a single guy...no need to ask the wife...


Oh yeah and the food taste mo' better too...not a saucy kinda guy...well except when I do Italian...then the plain ole' kitchen must do!...LOL


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## nt250 (Sep 3, 2006)

Nienna said:


> My kitchen is fairly large, but one thing I would add is a breakfast bar/peninsula with stools. One thing I LOVE about my kitchen is the large built-in pantry!
> 
> Our appliances are white. I would never get white again. We are still going back & forth about getting stainless or black. My husband likes the stainless; I like the black. I just wonder which is easier to keep clean?
> 
> ...



I added and entire addition to the back of my house.  I basically took your standard 1970's ranch and doubled it in size. I added a master bathroom, a utility room, and made a great room/kitchen. The whole thing cost me about $110,000.   But it all started because I wanted a dishwasher.  The kitchen is where I put most of my money.

My house is on a slab.  I went with tile floors but that was only because it was the quickest and easiest application.  I didn't put much thought into the floors and that's the biggest mistake I made.  If I had to do it over again I would have the floors leveled correctly, and I'd put down Pergo.  I have two dogs, so durabiltiy was the key thing.  The tile isn't bad, they just did a shitty job of installing it.  They didn't clean all the grout off before it dried, so it looks like crap.  I would have been nice if they had done it right.  Oh, well.

I didn't want stainless appliances, either.  I liked the all black ones and I had already decided I wanted maple cabinets so I thought the black would look really nice.  I didn't want stainless for two reasons:  it seemed like the latest fad and I didn't want my kitchen to look dated in 5 years, and they just don't look good in person in the store.  They look cheap.  At least I though they did.  So I decided to get all black appliances.

I changed my mind for two reasons:  I picked out my granite counters.  I had no intention of getting granite.  There was no way I could afford it.  I was doing all of this on credit, and there was only one credit card I could use for the kitchen stuff:  Lowe's.  But I could just NOT pick anything else.  The difference between the granite and all the other stuff Lowe's had to offer was just too great.  I saw that granite and nothing else would do.

I got Black Galaxy.  It looks just like it's name.  It's a deep, rich, shiny black.  It has silver speckles in it that look just like stars.  I have a 6 1/2 foot island and the island slab has a vein running though it.  I swear it looks just like the Milky Way.  

This picture doesn't do it justice:

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g303/Jaynie59/Kitchenafter.jpg

It's really not as dark as it looks in the picture.  I painted the walls burgandy, and that was a lot of work.  It took 8 coats, but it looks really nice with the maple cabinets.  But once I picked out the black granit counters, I couldn't see getting black appliances.

The second reason I decided against all black is because all black appliances cost just as much as stainless steel ones do.  All black, and all white, are considered an upgrade just like stainless.  And a black refrigerator?  It's nothing but this big black hole.  Because my house is on a slab, the entire kitchen had to be built around the "plumbing core".  That's why my kitchen sink is on a inside wall.  There is no natural light at all, except that which comes from the great room.  So while it's not as dark as it looks in the picture, all black appliances would have been way too much black with the counters.

So I got the stainless, and I'm really glad I did.  It's very easy to take care of.  And it looks really sharp with the black granite counters and the burgandy walls.  Really cool.

They only thing I hate is my stove top.  It's one of those new fangled glass cook tops and no matter what I do I can't get the damned thing clean.


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## Annie (Sep 3, 2006)

nt250 said:


> I added and entire addition to the back of my house.  I basically took your standard 1970's ranch and doubled it in size. I added a master bathroom, a utility room, and made a great room/kitchen. The whole thing cost me about $110,000.   But it all started because I wanted a dishwasher.  The kitchen is where I put most of my money.
> 
> My house is on a slab.  I went with tile floors but that was only because it was the quickest and easiest application.  I didn't put much thought into the floors and that's the biggest mistake I made.  If I had to do it over again I would have the floors leveled correctly, and I'd put down Pergo.  I have two dogs, so durabiltiy was the key thing.  The tile isn't bad, they just did a shitty job of installing it.  They didn't clean all the grout off before it dried, so it looks like crap.  I would have been nice if they had done it right.  Oh, well.
> 
> ...



It looks beautiful to me, I'm so jealous! Enjoy!


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## nt250 (Sep 3, 2006)

Kathianne said:


> I would love to be able to 'do' my kitchen, just can't afford it. However, I just had it painted and it's gorgeous! Sort of an olive green, with white ceilings and woodwork. I had the cabinets painted white, though I would love to replace them. I am putting in wood floors, in a few weeks.
> 
> I have all white appliances and they go well with my look. My friend just redid her kitchen, which is large, from floor up. Over $50k. All stainless appliances including a Subzero fridge, and she is not happy. Because 'fingerprints' bug her, she wishes she had gone textured, white or black. Her husband is not going to let her change those appliances, ever. She is over 60!




It's amazing what a little paint will do.

The kitchen part of my great room/kitchen addition is fairly small.  I have a wall and a half of cabinets and a pretty huge island which has room for two counter stools.  The fridge sits to the side.  I painted the kitchen part a deep burgandy color before the cabinets went up.  It really came out great.  It was a lot of work because it was all new drywall and plaster skim coat.  It took two gallons of paint to do that one small area.  Painting any room a dark color always takes several coats to get the rich look you're going after, but the new plaster just sucked it right up.  It took 8 coats of paint, but boy, it really came out great.

I painted the living area part of the great room a sand color.  That only took two coats.  What a difference it made.

The day I painted the kitchen Lenny, the crew boss, came back to install the cabinets.  He had this young guy with him.  I never knew when they would show up, but once the drywall crew and plasterers were done, I wanted to paint the room.  I knew it would be a hell of a lot easier to do it before they hung the cabinets.  They thought I was nuts.  When they showed up I had only the first coat of paint up.

It was red.  It was awful.  It was like this bright, reddish pinkish hideous color.  But I've painted rooms a dark color before, so I knew the first coat would look awful.  I had faith.  They made cracks the whole time.

But even they admitted that it looked really cool when it was done.  It was the perfect color as a backdrop for the maple cabinets and black granite counters.  I couldn't have picked a better color.  

Too many people are afraid of dark paint, or putting any kind of color on the walls, but what a difference it makes in a room.

White cabinets against an olive green wall must look really great.


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## Annie (Sep 3, 2006)

nt250 said:


> It's amazing what a little paint will do.
> 
> The kitchen part of my great room/kitchen addition is fairly small.  I have a wall and a half of cabinets and a pretty huge island which has room for two counter stools.  The fridge sits to the side.  I painted the kitchen part a deep burgandy color before the cabinets went up.  It really came out great.  It was a lot of work because it was all new drywall and plaster skim coat.  It took two gallons of paint to do that one small area.  Painting any room a dark color always takes several coats to get the rich look you're going after, but the new plaster just sucked it right up.  It took 8 coats of paint, but boy, it really came out great.
> 
> ...



Thanks! the kitchen does look great, for relatively little $$$. Now when you go into the reds, well you are speaking my living room and dining room!  Same reaction, before and after! Same white ceilings and woodwork!


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## nt250 (Sep 3, 2006)

pegwinn said:


> I am a guy. My idea of the perfect kitchen is one made of stone.  Stone allows heat to build up fast and retains it to slowly radiate out.  Granite is a great idea for counter tops.  I also prefer wood over tile for flooring.  But I'd use decking material which not only gives when my cast iron pots hit it, but is sealed against moisture so spills don't stain it.  My kitchen is gas since I feel that it is more efficient than electricity and heats quicker.  Gas flame will light the charcoal or wood without affecting taste.
> 
> The kitchen inside the house?  I don't know, but I'll ask my wife.



Alas, there is no gas on my street.  I would have had to go with propane.  Which is an option.  But propane is very expensive.  I had a propane fireplace when I moved into The Dump, and that pretty much was heat for the whole house.  I got rid of it and put in all new HVAC.  That was good money spent well.

I don't mind cooking on electric.  I actually prefer it.  My first house had a gas stove and when my daughter was a baby I used to heat a dutch oven full of water to make her formula.  It took forever for the water to boil on the gas stove.  This was an acient stove, mind you.  It was yellow, so that should date it to about, what? 1975?

But when I moved to a new house where there was no gas, I could boil water in half the time on my electric stove.  

I don't like these new electric cook tops, though.  They work OK.  I can adjust the heat just as well as any gas cook top.  I can't just frigging clean the damn thing.  What a mess.


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## nt250 (Sep 3, 2006)

Kathianne said:


> Thanks! the kitchen does look great, for relatively little $$$. Now when you go into the reds, well you are speaking my living room and dining room!  Same reaction, before and after! Same white ceilings and woodwork!




There is nothing like a deep, dark color againt a white ceiling and trim.  I painted my master bedroom in my last house hunter green.  It looked so great.  But when I went to sell that house I ws told to paint it white.  So I did.

Well, I hired someone to paint.  I'm a smoker so I needed to have the whole house painted inside.  You'd be amazed at how many people care more about smoke residue than they do about real damage.  I also had all the wall to wall carpeting taken up in the whole house, and the damage my dogs did to the hardwood floors was pathetic.  We're talking about thousands of dollars to replace these floors.  That's how bad they were.

But more buyers remarked on the stench and stains from smoking than cared about the thousands of dollars in ruined floors.

When I do the front room next year, which will be my formal dining room, I think I'll paint it a mauve color.  Something deep and rich, but that compliments the burgandy.  And I want the gas fireplace converted back to wood burning, and I want a formal, white, mantle built around it.  I have this round mirror from my grandmothers house that I want to hang over the fireplace, and that requires a formal mantle.

Deep colors. white trim. Nothing looks better.


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## pegwinn (Sep 3, 2006)

nt250 said:


> Alas, there is no gas on my street.  I would have had to go with propane.  Which is an option.  But propane is very expensive.  I had a propane fireplace when I moved into The Dump, and that pretty much was heat for the whole house.  I got rid of it and put in all new HVAC.  That was good money spent well.
> 
> I don't mind cooking on electric.  I actually prefer it.  My first house had a gas stove and when my daughter was a baby I used to heat a dutch oven full of water to make her formula.  It took forever for the water to boil on the gas stove.  This was an acient stove, mind you.  It was yellow, so that should date it to about, what? 1975?
> 
> ...



Actually I was describing my perfect "Guy Kitchen".  IOW an outdoor BBQ command post of stone.  I want the gas because it makes lighting charcoal or wood simple.  Me and the Mrs. are still searching for the perfect home. We thought we had it, but the seller wanted us to buy the place for 110K and it needed about 10K worth of repairs.  The deal fell apart when he offered 500 bux as a repair allowance.


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## Annie (Sep 3, 2006)

nt250 said:


> There is nothing like a deep, dark color againt a white ceiling and trim.  I painted my master bedroom in my last house hunter green.  It looked so great.  But when I went to sell that house I ws told to paint it white.  So I did.
> 
> Well, I hired someone to paint.  I'm a smoker so I needed to have the whole house painted inside.  You'd be amazed at how many people care more about smoke residue than they do about real damage.  I also had all the wall to wall carpeting taken up in the whole house, and the damage my dogs did to the hardwood floors was pathetic.  We're talking about thousands of dollars to replace these floors.  That's how bad they were.
> 
> ...



While we might vehemently disagree regarding schools, we are simpatico regarding decorating. I've always been a neutral person, but had a change of heart in the past few years. 

Kitchen is a deep olive. Living room and dining are a near Federal Red. Stairway is a custard, also with white trim. My Master BR is a deep gold, also white, Baths are deep grays/blues with white trim. Other bedrooms are blues/creams. All trim is white.


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## nt250 (Sep 3, 2006)

Kathianne said:


> While we might vehemently disagree regarding schools, we are simpatico regarding decorating. I've always been a neutral person, but had a change of heart in the past few years.
> 
> Kitchen is a deep olive. Living room and dining are a near Federal Red. Stairway is a custard, also with white trim. My Master BR is a deep gold, also white, Baths are deep grays/blues with white trim. Other bedrooms are blues/creams. All trim is white.




We do have similiar tastes.  I painted my bedroom and baths a blue/gray also.

I like the custard idea.  Right now there is an ugly brick wall in what used to be the living room.  Next year I'm going to have that whole wall ripped down, I want the whole room taken back to the studs. New drywall.  And I am gong to have the floors done with wood.  Pergo at least.  And I want that fireplace converted back to wood burning, and I want a formal mantle around it so I can hang Nana's mirror.

There is nothing like a real fire.  In my last house we used to do that every Christmas.  I'd turn off all the lights in the house.  Only the tree would be lit.  And I'd start a fire in the fireplace.  My daughter and I would sit on the couch and just talk.  Or not.  Sometimes we'd just sit there.  In the glow of the fire, in the light of the tree.

I won't be the same having the fireplace in the dining room, but it will be close enough.


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## Annie (Sep 3, 2006)

nt250 said:


> We do have similiar tastes.  I painted my bedroom and baths a blue/gray also.
> 
> I like the custard idea.  Right now there is an ugly brick wall in what used to be the living room.  Next year I'm going to have that whole wall ripped down, I want the whole room taken back to the studs. New drywall.  And I am gong to have the floors done with wood.  Pergo at least.  And I want that fireplace converted back to wood burning, and I want a formal mantle around it so I can hang Nana's mirror.
> 
> ...



Just getting eerie. I have to have the fireplace cleaned, it's a real with gas start. All the same, but my sons and daughter in the place of just your daughter. Damn, weird.


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## Abbey Normal (Sep 3, 2006)

I agree about fireplaces, Jillian. When we moved in, one of our two fireplaces had a wood burning stove in it. We immediately took it out and sold it. If I could afford it, I'd even have a third fireplace in the house.  

As for the kitchen, we are about to have hardwood installed there, and also in the dining room. I am a little nervous that with the wood cabinets, there will be too much wood, though. 

We almost did tile. I'm glad we didn't after reading what nt250 wrote about it.


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## Abbey Normal (Sep 3, 2006)

Kathianne said:


> Thanks! the kitchen does look great, for relatively little $$$. Now when you go into the reds, well you are speaking my living room and dining room!  Same reaction, before and after! Same white ceilings and woodwork!



I wanted to do that in our family room, but my husband is afraid it will look bad. So I let go-- for now!


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## nt250 (Sep 3, 2006)

pegwinn said:


> Actually I was describing my perfect "Guy Kitchen".  IOW an outdoor BBQ command post of stone.  I want the gas because it makes lighting charcoal or wood simple.  Me and the Mrs. are still searching for the perfect home. We thought we had it, but the seller wanted us to buy the place for 110K and it needed about 10K worth of repairs.  The deal fell apart when he offered 500 bux as a repair allowance.




I'm incredulous.

I paid $228,000 for The Dump and I considered myself lucky to find it and get it.

I bought this house for three reasons:  it had an attached garage, a level yard, and it was 15 minutes from work.   Being closer to work was the main reason I moved.  I commuted for 8 years and I just couldn't take it anymore.

$130,000 and two and half years later I'm still living in half a dump.  The new, back part of the house, is nice.  The three front rooms are still a dump.  But I'll pay for all that as I go.  At one point during the renovations I owed $60,000 on credit cards.  Never again.

Cosmetic stuff is nothing.  But any house you buy that requires any kind of major renovations?  Keep looking.  My situation did finally work out.  But the permits, and the variances, and the construction.  It was all hell.  I would never do it again.

What's left to do on this house is all basically cosmetic.  No more structual changes.  No more plumbing involved.  The rest will be a piece of cake.

But I love my kitchen and it was worth every penny and every minute of hell it took to get it done.


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## Nienna (Sep 3, 2006)

Kathianne said:


> Thanks! the kitchen does look great, for relatively little $$$. Now when you go into the reds, well you are speaking my living room and dining room!  Same reaction, before and after! Same white ceilings and woodwork!



I recently painted our bedroom a deep red. I was afraid it would be too dark with the wood trim, but the deep paint makes the wood look like gold! I love it. Now if I could just get my husband to help me put up the curtain rod...


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## pegwinn (Sep 3, 2006)

nt250 said:


> I'm incredulous.
> 
> I paid $228,000 for The Dump and I considered myself lucky to find it and get it.  I think you have just descibed the difference in cost of living from there to here.
> 
> ...



For my area 110K gets you a new three bedrooom house on a normal sized lot or an older house on a huge lot.  If the issues had been cosmetic we'd be closing in a week.  Now we are taking the fall/winter off and will begin again after the new year.


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## Annie (Sep 4, 2006)

pegwinn said:


> For my area 110K gets you a new three bedrooom house on a normal sized lot or an older house on a huge lot.  If the issues had been cosmetic we'd be closing in a week.  Now we are taking the fall/winter off and will begin again after the new year.



I wish! Saw this in the dead tree edition this morning:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chicago/chi-0609040075sep04,1,29829.story



> Average families losing housing race in DuPage
> 
> By Joseph Sjostrom
> Tribune staff reporter
> ...


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## Mr. P (Sep 4, 2006)

pegwinn said:


> For my area 110K gets you a new three bedrooom house on a normal sized lot or an older house on a huge lot.  If the issues had been cosmetic we'd be closing in a week.  Now we are taking the fall/winter off and will begin again after the new year.



Hey Peg, I don't know about your area but here Fall/Winter is a great time for a buyer. Most aren't looking with kids in school, holidays etc. So it really is a time of year sellers will deal or sit un-sold until spring.


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## nt250 (Sep 4, 2006)

Mr. P said:


> Hey Peg, I don't know about your area but here Fall/Winter is a great time for a buyer. Most aren't looking with kids in school, holidays etc. So it really is a time of year sellers will deal or sit un-sold until spring.




That's probably true.  Or would be if more people knew it.

I put my house on the market in the Fall of 2003.  It was tough.  Not only do you have the hassle of keeping the inside clean, you also have to keep the outside clean.  That is much tougher to do in the fall and winter.  And that's just the selling part.

I finally found a buyer for my house around late November.  I was looking to buy 50 miles away.  There was not a whole lot in my price range.  I saw a couple of houses during working hours, but most of my house hunting was done on Sundays.  One thing I learned?  Buy a street atlas.  And don't make any plans after 2PM.  That time of the year, at least in New England, it's pretty much impossible to read street signs after 2-2:30 in the afternoon.  The angle of the sun prevents it.  

If I had to do it over again ( and I won't EVER do it again, I am NEVER moving again, EVER), I would have waited until spring.


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## pegwinn (Sep 4, 2006)

I probably should start a new topic with this.  But if the mods don't like it they can move it, no hard feelings.

WE are looking but waiting.  Meaning that we are doing internet searches and scoping out the "dead tree editions" as Kathi called it.  But we won't be contacting anyone unless it is really, really, too good to be true.  We are very fortunate to have very good jobs as well as my USMC pension.  So we are above the median and as long as we don't go waaaaaaay overboard we can get a really nice place.

Since the last place bombed out due to inspection issues, I need to learn to pre-screen better.


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## Mr. P (Sep 4, 2006)

pegwinn said:


> I probably should start a new topic with this.  But if the mods don't like it they can move it, no hard feelings.
> 
> WE are looking but waiting.  Meaning that we are doing internet searches and scoping out the "dead tree editions" as Kathi called it.  But we won't be contacting anyone unless it is really, really, too good to be true.  We are very fortunate to have very good jobs as well as my USMC pension.  So we are above the median and as long as we don't go waaaaaaay overboard we can get a really nice place.
> 
> Since the last place bombed out due to inspection issues, I need to learn to pre-screen better.



Im looking to down size for the retirement years. Little maintenance, ease of use etc.

My first house was 1206 sq ft brick, 3 bdrm, 2 bath ranch. I loved it.
The second was a two story 1660 sq ft 3 bdrm ,2 ½ bath.
This one is a 4 bdrm 2 ½ bath, two story 2400 sq ft. and  way more than is needed now.

I want that brick 1200 (maybe 1400-1600) square footer back, in the country with a few acres to go with it, and a nice level lot for my last home.


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## nt250 (Sep 4, 2006)

pegwinn said:


> I probably should start a new topic with this.  But if the mods don't like it they can move it, no hard feelings.
> 
> WE are looking but waiting.  Meaning that we are doing internet searches and scoping out the "dead tree editions" as Kathi called it.  But we won't be contacting anyone unless it is really, really, too good to be true.  We are very fortunate to have very good jobs as well as my USMC pension.  So we are above the median and as long as we don't go waaaaaaay overboard we can get a really nice place.
> 
> Since the last place bombed out due to inspection issues, I need to learn to pre-screen better.




I don't know.  I think it all kind of relates back to food.  I spent $110,000 dollars just so I could have a dishwasher.  I wanted a dishwasher so I could cook all the things I like to cook.  I'm no gourmet cook by any stretch of the imagination, but the kitchen is THE most important room in the house.  Even if you don't like to cook, or if you're single and don't ever cook much, it's really nice to have nice surroundings.  

My kitchen has been done for over a year now and I just sat at the counter for the first time today.  I've been looking for counter stools all this time and I could never find anything that I liked that would fit the space.  Last week I typed "counter stools" in at Google and I found my way, eventually, to overstock.com.  I found these:

http://www.overstock.com/?page=proframe&prod_id=1148409

I got two for $189 and $1 in shipping.  I got the silver.  They look fantastic with my black granite counter tops and stainless appliances.  They swivel, and they're adjustable.  They're perfect.  I just spent the last hour sitting at my counter, drinking coffee, and admiring my kitchen.  

Back to the subject of house hunting:  It probably depends on how hot the housing market is where you're looking, but my experience with the internet was not a good one.  By the time the best houses get their pictures up, they already have offers.  And you can not rely on the pictures for even basic things.  

One of my main criteria, that was non-negotiable, was an attached garage.  The first three houses I looked at had attached garages, but none of them had a door to the house.  The correct term is "integral" or "integrated" garage.  That was very tough because I could no longer rely on the pictures.  My agent had to look the listing up to see if it was on there, or call the other agent and ask.  And again, all the best houses were already off the market by the time I saw them on the internet.

And you really can NOT go by the pictures.  I saw some houses that were so bad inside that I couldn't WAIT to get out of them.  Even the halfway decent ones had other things wrong with them that wouldn't  show up in a picture.  One house was about 6 inches from a busy road.  Literally, this house had NO front yard at all.   Another was about 30 yards from railroad tracks.  I looked at one brand new house that was in my price range, but didn't have a garage.  I figured I could build one if there was room.  Not only was there no room for a garage, there was no room for a driveway.  The builder had put a driveway in the front yard.  

Good luck.  Selling and buying a house at the same time is the most stressful thing I have ever lived through.  I've done it twice now and I will never, ever, do it again.  I'm never moving again.  But if, for any reason, I did have to sell this house, I would put all my stuff in storage, sell the house first and move into an apartment.  Never again will I ever attempt to sell and buy at the same time.


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## pegwinn (Sep 4, 2006)

Sounds like you did well on the stools.  Awesome.  Our Mortgage agent is pushing us to find a place "before interest rates go up".  Here in Lubbock there is a lot of houses on the market.  The first two that we wanted, got offers before we did.  Wish there was a magic website that said "todays interest rate is......." and actually was accurate.

We are looking for a bigger house.  One that will allow two sets of parents to come visit or live, and grandkids to visit.  Right now we are living in an apartment with a big storage building rented.


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## nt250 (Sep 4, 2006)

pegwinn said:


> Sounds like you did well on the stools.  Awesome.  Our Mortgage agent is pushing us to find a place "before interest rates go up".  Here in Lubbock there is a lot of houses on the market.  The first two that we wanted, got offers before we did.  Wish there was a magic website that said "todays interest rate is......." and actually was accurate.
> 
> We are looking for a bigger house.  One that will allow two sets of parents to come visit or live, and grandkids to visit.  Right now we are living in an apartment with a big storage building rented.




Good luck, again.  You are actually in a pretty good position being a renter.  I found my DREAM house.  This house was perfect.  It didn't even need a paint job.  They were asking $269,900 and I offered full price for it.  There were 3 other offers so I upped my bid to $280,000.  I still didn't get it.  They ended up selling it to a renter even though I was the highest bidder.  I had a buyer for my house but he had to sell his house and it was all contingent.  The renter was a much more attractive buyer even though I offered more money.

You'll be in a perfect position when you do make an offer.


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## -Cp (Sep 11, 2006)

I find it a bit odd how so many folks seem to completely overlook ventilation when it comes to their kitchen - especially those whom cook with gas and have a LOT of BTU's emitting from the cook-top. 

I'm sorry to say that those Microwave's w/ the built-in fans just don't cut it... 

When we bought our house we went with an hood that does 400CFM - which we thought would be good enough, but I wish we had got one with over 700CFM. 

Ever wonder why your kitchen smells up the house so much when you cook or sear certain foods? It's because the smoke can't leave fast enough!


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## nt250 (Sep 12, 2006)

-Cp said:


> I find it a bit odd how so many folks seem to completely overlook ventilation when it comes to their kitchen - especially those whom cook with gas and have a LOT of BTU's emitting from the cook-top.
> 
> I'm sorry to say that those Microwave's w/ the built-in fans just don't cut it...
> 
> ...



That's a very good point and one that shouldn't be overlooked.

See where my stove is?:

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g303/Jaynie59/Kitchenafter.jpg

That's about dead center right in the middle of my house.  Because my house is on a slab, the new kitchen was designed around the existing plumbing.  My contract with the the contractor specified that he was responsible for the installation of all appliances.  But it didn't say anything about any venting.

Both my stove and my clothes dryer are not vented.  I could have paid extra to have that done, but by the time the appliances went in I was flat broke.  I was worse than broke.  I was $60,000 in debt and out of credit.  I had also gone 5 months without a kitchen and was on the verge of a nervous breakdown.

If I were to give anyone advice about doing major home renovations, they would be in this order:

1. Don't. 

2. Make sure your contract covers everything.  Windows and doors?  Specify the type and quality, or buy them yourself.  

3. Make sure any payment plan keeps a large majority if the balance due at the end of the job.  If you only owe $500 after paying $75,000, don't expect to see them again to get little jobs cleaned up.  Do NOT pay them until the job is finished or you will never see them again.

4. Vent the stove to the outside.


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## Mr. P (Sep 12, 2006)

nt250 said:


> That's a very good point and one that shouldn't be overlooked.
> 
> See where my stove is?:
> 
> ...



Was that kithen redesigned?


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## nt250 (Sep 12, 2006)

Mr. P said:


> Was that kithen redesigned?




It was a total gut job.

See the island?  See that wall to the left with the thermostat on it?  The end of that wall, where the cabinets start, is the old existing wall of the house.

I added a 12x26 foot addition to the back of my entire house.  This is what the rest of the kitchen/great room addition looked like mid renovation:

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g303/Jaynie59/frenchdoorandwindowsmid.jpg

I don't have any recent pictures because when they bumped out the back wall they forgot to give me an outside faucet.  This fact was overlooked until the plasterers showed up.  I wasn't home that day, so they asked my next door neighbor if they could use their faucet.  

One thing about major renovations is that when they show up the work goes really fast.  The drywall and skim coat was all done in two days.

I lived with this for 5 months:

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g303/Jaynie59/kitchenmid.jpg

Before  the plumbers came back, Lenny, the crew chief, had to cut a gaping whole in the drywall to get at the plumbing so they could run a pipe for an outside faucet.  They never came back an patched it.  So I haven't bothered to take any pictures of that part of the room.

It really came out great, though.  Lowe's designed the kitchen.  I took a pen drawing that Lenny gave me with just a rough sketch of the space and the guy at Lowe's did it all with a computer program.  It took about two hours after I had picked out the cabinets, but I think he did a great job.

Lenny, and the kid he had with him, did a really great job installing the cabinets, too.  I have very low ceilings in my house.  They're only 7'1".  There was no way around that, not without rebuilding the entire roof of the house and I just didn't have the money for that.  I was hoping to get higher ceilings in the addition, but they had to install a massive beam to carry the load between the two roof lines, and it was just easier to carry the same ceilings over to the addition.

You can't see it in the picture.  The addition bumped out the back wall of the house, and connected to an existing attached garage.  About 60% of the garage structure was a 2 car garage, and about 40% of it was an existing family room.  The beam goes from that wall between the two windows up to the peak of the garage.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g303/Jaynie59/Backviewafter.jpg

It was worth it in the end, as hard as it all was.

I love my kitchen.  I do wish the stove was vented, though.  Maybe next year.


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## Annie (Sep 12, 2006)

nt250 said:


> It was a total gut job.
> 
> See the island?  See that wall to the left with the thermostat on it?  The end of that wall, where the cabinets start, is the old existing wall of the house.
> 
> ...



I would have held out for the step up to the door.  just kidding. Looks great.


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## Mr. P (Sep 12, 2006)

nt250 said:


> It was a total gut job.
> 
> See the island?  See that wall to the left with the thermostat on it?  The end of that wall, where the cabinets start, is the old existing wall of the house.
> 
> ...



Sounds like Lenny and Lowes screwed-up. No vents? Is that even code?
Edit: and the contractor if it wasn't Lenny.


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## nt250 (Sep 12, 2006)

Kathianne said:


> I would have held out for the step up to the door.  just kidding. Looks great.



There's a deck there now.  That was a huge deal and why the renovations took so long.  Turns out that my town has a 20 foot side set back rule.  I couldn't bump the whole back wall out because the town required 20 feet between the house and the property line on the side.  The house was 9'8" from it.

That took a $950 survey, $750 for a lawyer, and 3 months to get on the docket for the zoning board.

That was all before any real demo took place.  The entire job came to a complete stand still because I needed a variance on the side set back rule. I lived from November 2004 until March of 2005 with an unheated, uninsulated shell on the back of my house.  My electric bill everaged $300 a month because I had two heaters going 24/7 to prevent my pipes from freezing.  The hot water heater was in the garage and the pipes ran through the old part of the family room into the house.  They still froze.  It cost me $200 to have a plumber come out and use a heat gun on them.  Could have been worse.  At least they didn't burst.

One thing I insisted on was extending the deck to the bedroom door.  Once I had that variance, I wasn't about to let that go.  I didn't want to go through that again.  So the deck now goes to just past the door.  I was supposed to get a lattice wall there for privacy since my neighbor on that side has an above ground pool, but they never came back and did that.  But at least I got the deck.

That's what's really annoying.  The stuff they left undone was really petty.  Stuff that could have been done by a couple of guys in a couple of hours.  Like patching the drywall in the great room.  Replacing the broken window in the master bath that someone put a hammer through.  Putting up the lattice screen.  

But they did a really great job overall.  And they didn't really screw me that much.  It could have been a lot worse.

I never could have paid for it if it weren't for that contractor.  I probably paid way more than I could have otherwise, but I got what I wanted.


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## Mr. P (Sep 12, 2006)

nt250 said:


> There's a deck there now.  That was a huge deal and why the renovations took so long.  Turns out that my town has a 20 foot side set back rule.  I couldn't bump the whole back wall out because the town required 20 feet between the house and the property line on the side.  The house was 9'8" from it.
> 
> That took a $950 survey, $750 for a lawyer, and 3 months to get on the docket for the zoning board.
> 
> ...



Who was the contractor?


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## manu1959 (Sep 12, 2006)

Mr. P said:


> Who was the contractor?



gas cook tops are required to be vented by code.....100 bucks she didn't use an architect


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## Mr. P (Sep 12, 2006)

manu1959 said:


> gas cook tops are required to be vented by code.....100 bucks she didn't use an architect



100 bucks she was the contractor too.


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## nt250 (Sep 12, 2006)

Mr. P said:


> Who was the contractor?




You want the actual name?

I tried doing it the way everybody says.  Get recommendations from friends and co-workers.  The problem is that those contractors don't need the work.  You can wait two years for those contractors to get to you.  I called 3 or 4, and only one bothered to come out and give me an estimate.  $80,000 to $100,000 he said.  He was very... dismissive.  I had held back $36,000 from the sale of my house.  Not enough.

I finally ended up looking in the Yellow Pages and I found Jeff.  He came out, looked at the house, and gave me an estimate of $45,000, but I was going to have to pay for almost all the materials.  Even the plywood.  His contract would pretty much only cover the labor. The concrete slab, framing, basic plumbing, basic electrical, and labor was covered.  But everything else I would have to pay for.  Anything that was part of the structure was included in his price.  But anything that was attached to it, I would have to pay for.  Oh, he did say he would spring of the nails, but the plywood was a big thing. I guess plywood is pretty steep.

No floors.  No cabinets.  No fixtures of any kind.  Jeff told me to apply for credit at Lowe's and Home Depot.  I did.  I was desperate.  I wanted a nice house.  

He hooked me up with a designer who wrote up the plans.  The plans alone cost me $1250.  But he did a nice job.  He gave me everything I wanted.  He even gave me 2 full bathrooms.  The existing house had a very small 5X8 bathroom.  No window.  I didn't expect a full bath in the master bedroom addition.  But he said he didn't want to give me a house with two bathrooms with no windows, so he he gave me a full bath in the master.  A small full bath, but a full bath.  It came out really great.

I got an inside utility room.  I can actually do laundry without having to go outside, or down into a basement.  It's great.  Before the renovations the washer was in the kitchen and the dryer was in the garage.  Now I have a utility room just off the kitchen.  Washer and dryer right next to each other.  It's great.

I was pissed off at the small stuf that was left undone, but that's mainly because I was a great customer and I have a lot more work left to do on The Dump.  Jeff could have had steady business from me for the next five years. I did the old bathroom this past spring and that cost me $10,000 but it was worth it.  But I'll never hire that guy again, either.  For differnent, but similiar reasons.

Petty shit.  Things that would really only take an hour or two.  But now I have to hire someone else to try and get them done.


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## manu1959 (Sep 12, 2006)

Mr. P said:


> 100 bucks she was the contractor too.



i bought a 350k 3 bedroom 2 bath rancher w/ a pool and an in law studio that had been a rental for ten years.....total gut then spent another 350k redoing everything you can imagine...everyhting worked out perfect....never moving


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## Mr. P (Sep 12, 2006)

nt250 said:


> ...  But now I have to hire someone else to try and get them done.



See Manu, I told yeah! You were right too, it's a wash.:rotflmao:


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## nt250 (Sep 12, 2006)

manu1959 said:


> gas cook tops are required to be vented by code.....100 bucks she didn't use an architect




I have an electric stove.  No gas on my street.  I did have a propane fireplace but I had it taken out.  Well, not the fireplace insert, that's still there.  But I had HVAC put in and had the propane tank removed.  I don't know, propane just scares me.  Probably for no reason.

My next job is to renovate the front room.  What used to be the living room.  I want it all taken down to the studs. There's this really ugly brick wall where the fireplace is.  I want all new drywall.  I want the fireplace converted back to wood burning. I want a formal, white, mantle around it.  I have a really pretty mirror from my grandmother that I want to hang there.  It'll be my formal dining room.

That'll leave only two rooms left.


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## Mr. P (Sep 12, 2006)

manu1959 said:


> i bought a 350k 3 bedroom 2 bath rancher w/ a pool and an in law studio that had been a rental for ten years.....total gut then spent another 350k redoing everything you can imagine...everyhting worked out perfect....never moving



Oh  I know, you can contract yourself, IF you know what you're doing. Otherwise it's the typical "I'll never do that again" sob stuff.


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## nt250 (Sep 12, 2006)

Mr. P said:


> Oh  I know, you can contract yourself, IF you know what you're doing. Otherwise it's the typical "I'll never do that again" sob stuff.



Would you mind explaining what you mean?

If you go back and read what I actually said, you would see that I am actually very greatful to my contractor.  Jeff gave me the house I wanted.

I'm just very dismayed at how he treated me after I paid him $75,000.

And what was that comment about me being my own contractor?  That's what I pay them for.  If I could  do it myself I wouldn't need them.

All the work that is left won't involve plumbing.  Thank Christ!


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## Mr. P (Sep 12, 2006)

nt250 said:


> ...
> I'm just very dismayed at how he treated me after I paid him $75,000.
> 
> And what was that comment about me being my own contractor?  That's what I pay them for.  If I could  do it myself I wouldn't need them.
> ...



Obvious you have no clue what a contractor is, or does..

I'll tell ya this though, as long as you are willing to write $75,000 checks people,  all kinds of people, will line up for em. Good luck with the rest of the house, from what you've writen in a few treads you'll need it.

Friendly advise...RESEARCH and LEARN..It's cheaper.


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## manu1959 (Sep 12, 2006)

Mr. P said:


> Oh  I know, you can contract yourself, IF you know what you're doing. Otherwise it's the typical "I'll never do that again" sob stuff.



now that is just mean:rotflmao:


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## nt250 (Sep 12, 2006)

Mr. P said:


> Obvious you have no clue what a contractor is, or does..
> 
> I'll tell ya this though, as long as you are willing to write $75,000 checks people,  all kinds of people, will line up for em. Good luck with the rest of the house, from what you've writen in a few treads you'll need it.
> 
> Friendly advise...RESEARCH and LEARN..It's cheaper.



What's your point?

Are YOU a contractor?

I paid $75,000 to have a 12x26 foot addition added to my house.  I paid $228,000 for my house and I doubled the size of it with the addition.  I added a second bathroom, a utlitity room, and a brand new kitchen from the studs out.  The whole thing ended up costing me $110,000.

What do you think a contractor is?


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## manu1959 (Sep 12, 2006)

nt250 said:


> Would you mind explaining what you mean?
> 
> If you go back and read what I actually said, you would see that I am actually very greatful to my contractor.  Jeff gave me the house I wanted.
> 
> ...



is jeff licensed and bonded? did you pay him money before he started? did you hire any of the subcontractors yourself? did you do any of the work yourself? who's contract did you sign? who did the drawings? why did not not hold 10% of the contract amount until 35 days after the completion of the job and request conditional and unconditional lien releases?


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## nt250 (Sep 12, 2006)

manu1959 said:


> is jeff licensed and bonded? did you pay him money before he started? did you hire any of the subcontractors yourself? did you do any of the work yourself? who's contract did you sign? who did the drawings? why did not not hold 10% of the contract amount until 35 days after the completion of the job and request conditional and unconditional lien releases?




Oh, now you tell me!

I was desperate.  I bought a dump that I could not live in for the two years it would have taken to have a legit, recommended, contractor take the job.

I think I made out pretty well.  

I did nothing myself except paint.  That I did, but that's only because you can't find ANYBODY to paint for less than highway robbery.  Everything else was up to Jeff.

Is Jeff licensed?  Funny you should ask.

When I found him in the Yellow Pages in the spring of 2004, he had a BBB tag at the end of his half page ad.  Now, I happen to work for the phone company and I know that those ads cost a lot of money.  A LOT of money.  I saw the BBB reference so I checked him out there.  No complaints.

Now, I'm not completely stupid.  I know that it is VERY difficult to lodge a complaint at the Better Business Bureau.  You can't just complain about a company that screwed you over.  You have to document that you tried to resolve it with the company and they were not responsive, or would not resolve your complaint to your satisfaction.  But you can't get screwed and then complain at the BBB about it.  

So if you check out a company at the BBB and they have even one complaint?  Run, don't walk, as far away as you can.  Because for every 1 complaint at the BBB there are probably 50 more where people couldn't be bothered to go through the hassle it takes to file a complaint in the first place.

But Jeff had no complaints when I hired him.

About 6 months ago I checked him out again and he had 3.  AND, there was a disclaimer at the bottom of his listing that said his ad in the Yellow Pages claims he is a member of the BBB, but he is not, and never has been, a member of the Better Business Bureau.

So, yeah, I consider the little things he screwed me about to be minor.  Annoying, but pretty minor.  

The plans were done by a designer.  No, he was not an architect
and that was the first thing he told me when I met with him.  He never claimed to be one.  And he did make mistakes.  He had two sets of french doors on the back wall.  One was supposed to be in the bedroom suite and the other was on the same back wall leading from the kitchen/great room to the deck.  Lenny told me there was no way to put french doors on that wall.  There was no room for a header.  The roof line was so low that it wasn't possible.

So we moved the french doors to the gable end of the garage structure for the great room.  And Lenny REALLY tried to talk me out of having a door in the master bedroom leading to the deck.  But I REALLY wanted a door there.  My first house had sliders to a deck from the master bedroom and I really wanted that door.  I've always had dogs and it's nice to have a door in the bedroom to just let them out.  I wanted that door.

So Lenny custom ordered the door for me.  It's pretty cheap.  It's like cork that has vinyl clad on it.  It's not a full sized door, it's a lot shorter than a full sized door would be.  But you reall can't tell.

I think he felt so guilty about the cheap door he got me for the bedroom that he went all out and got me great french doors for the great room.  Those are really nice doors.


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## manu1959 (Sep 12, 2006)

nt250 said:


> Oh, now you tell me!
> 
> I was desperate.  I bought a dump that I could not live in for the two years it would have taken to have a legit, recommended, contractor take the job.
> 
> ...



as one that does all this every day of my life.....you did very well....you should be proud of what you got....sounds like a nice house to raise a nice family....congradulations


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## nt250 (Sep 12, 2006)

manu1959 said:


> as one that does all this every day of my life.....you did very well....you should be proud of what you got....sounds like a nice house to raise a nice family....congradulations




Well, after $110,000 I pretty much have to tell myself that, don't I?

No, in all seriousness, I was very lucky.  I could have been screwed big time and I wasn't.  Not in the end.

It all worked out pretty well, considering.

And I got my dishwasher.  Which is what started it all.

I wouldn't want to go through it again, but it all worked out.


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## manu1959 (Sep 12, 2006)

nt250 said:


> Well, after $110,000 I pretty much have to tell myself that, don't I?
> 
> No, in all seriousness, I was very lucky.  I could have been screwed big time and I wasn't.  Not in the end.
> 
> ...



good for you


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## Mr. P (Sep 13, 2006)

Car salesmen have this saying, "A good deal is whatever you feel good about".

I hate car salesmen, but that is SOooooooo true.


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## archangel (Sep 24, 2006)

Right now a mess...made three cheese and meat lasagna...yuk..think I will run to the market and buy a six pack of beer...then contemplate the clean up...a batchelors life is a dream....or is that a mess?:sausage:


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## Joz (Sep 26, 2006)

My ex seemd to always be frying fish, and then smear the grease around.
I always wanted a stainless steel kitchen with  a drain in the center of the floor, so I could use a high-pressured hose to clean it.   
Now I'm considering vending machines.


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## Mr. P (Sep 26, 2006)

Joz said:


> My ex seemd to always be frying fish, and then smear the grease around.
> I always wanted a stainless steel kitchen with  a drain in the center of the floor, so I could use a high-pressured hose to clean it.
> Now I'm considering vending machines.



I like Captian Ds fish.


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## CockySOB (Sep 26, 2006)

Just finished getting the sub-flooring replaced as well as the surfacing (Tarkett Infinity), not just the kitchen but both of the bathrooms as well.  Next step is painting the walls, then putting a new finish on the cabinetry and finally replacing the appliances.  Cabinetry will probably be next summer's project and appliances will go in bits and pieces over the next couple of years.  

Someone else in the thread mentioned putting a deep, rich color in the kitchen for a dramatic difference from traditional kitchens, and I agree.  With the new floor being a faux-stone surface, and reddish-brown cabinetry I figure a darker color such as pine green would make for a distinctive look.  

The new appliances will have the polished steel finish....

One thing at a time.....


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## nt250 (Sep 30, 2006)

CockySOB said:


> Just finished getting the sub-flooring replaced as well as the surfacing (Tarkett Infinity), not just the kitchen but both of the bathrooms as well.  Next step is painting the walls, then putting a new finish on the cabinetry and finally replacing the appliances.  Cabinetry will probably be next summer's project and appliances will go in bits and pieces over the next couple of years.
> 
> Someone else in the thread mentioned putting a deep, rich color in the kitchen for a dramatic difference from traditional kitchens, and I agree.  With the new floor being a faux-stone surface, and reddish-brown cabinetry I figure a darker color such as pine green would make for a distinctive look.
> 
> ...



Color really does make a huge difference.  It's a lot of work to paint walls a dark color and have it come out nice, but it's really worth it in the end.  And with white, or natural, woodwork?  I just don't think there is a better look.

They thought I was nuts when I started painting the kitchen burgandy, and it really looked horrible until I got the third coat up.  But 5 coats later, it really looked good.  And once they hung the maple cabinets, it really looked great.  Then the black granite counters went in, and then the stainless appliances.  It really came out better than I could have hoped for.

Even if you do a total kitchen renovation like I did, it's not at all like you see on these TV shows.  You don't just come home one day, open your eyes, and have a brand new kitchen.  

I had nothing but a stove and fridge for 5 months.  My fridge was in the living room all that time. Then I had cabinets, which meant I lost my stove until the new one could be installed.  Then the sink and counters went in, but I still had no plumbing.  So no water.  The appliances got installed, but I still couldn't use the dishwasher.

Then the plumber finally came back and hooked everything up except for the garbage disposer.  The one I bought didn't have a plug.  So that took about a month before I could find someone to hook that up for me.

It's not like you see on TV.


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