# Damn! My health Insurance went up anther $60 a month. Obamacare sucks!



## Jroc (Dec 29, 2014)

it never went up this much in one year. Mandated coverage, increasing prices, and we haven't seen anything yet


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## Neil N. Blowme (Dec 29, 2014)




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## MaryL (Dec 29, 2014)

I just paid 44 bucks  for medicine that  used to cost me 50 cents. No kidding. Thanks to Obama.


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## saveliberty (Dec 29, 2014)

Come on everyone, you have access to health insurance coverage, the stock market is up and gas is down.  Your all getting rich!


/sarcasm off


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## Vandalshandle (Dec 29, 2014)

OMG! A loaf of bread is up to $1.99, thanks to Obama!


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## Dont Taz Me Bro (Dec 29, 2014)

Vandalshandle said:


> OMG! A loaf of bread is up to $1.99, thanks to Obama!


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## Mr. H. (Dec 29, 2014)

My carrier jacked my premium by $100/month this year as a result of it being amended to ACA compliance. 

Next month, It will go up an additional $150/month. Why? To match the rates of the cheapest healthcare.gov policies. 

We can not be paying $1,200/month with $13,000 annual family co-pay and $12,000 out of pocket AND expect to keep the kid in college, pay the mortgage, make estimated tax payments on the C-Corp portion of my income, pay real estate taxes, utilities, grocery bills, home and auto insurance premiums, blah blah blah...

Fuck this shit.


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## dblack (Dec 29, 2014)

Vandalshandle said:


> OMG! A loaf of bread is up to $1.99, thanks to Obama!


Yeah it is a little like people watching the weather forecast for "proof" that global warming is a farce. In fact, I'd wage prices for insurance would be going up even faster without ACA - it's a fundamentally dysfunctional market.

The thing is, that's really what needs to happen.


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## Vandalshandle (Dec 29, 2014)

dblack said:


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Dblack,

My career was underwriting and pricing group health insurance. During the Carter years (which is when the bill finally came due for LBJ's Great Society and Vietnam combined) I was factoring in a medical inflation rate of 21% per year in all my group health insurance premium renewals (24% for RX costs).


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## Neil N. Blowme (Dec 29, 2014)

Poor seniors are the ones who really got screwed by Obamacare.


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## dblack (Dec 29, 2014)

Vandalshandle said:


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Yep. It's a train wreck. And the sooner it skids to a stop, and people figure out that they can't use insurance to avoid health care bills, the sooner we can get things back on track.


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## Vandalshandle (Dec 29, 2014)

Neil N. Blowme said:


> Poor seniors are the ones who really got screwed by Obamacare.



As a senior, I've never been happier with my health insurance, except for the donut hole for RX.


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## Vandalshandle (Dec 29, 2014)

When I started pricing group health insurance in June, 1966, the average benefits were $25 per day hospital room and board (31 days), $400 surgical, and $5,000 lifetime max Major Medical, at a cost of about $30 per month.

...and ground meat was $.33 per pound.


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## Neil N. Blowme (Dec 29, 2014)

Vandalshandle said:


> Neil N. Blowme said:
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I'm speaking of poor seniors living only on Social Security who only have Medicare.


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## BULLDOG (Dec 29, 2014)

Jroc said:


> it never went up this much in one year. Mandated coverage, increasing prices, and we haven't seen anything yet




Mine went up this year too, and it hasn't done that in several years. I guess that's because nobody would sell me insurance until Obamacare came along. I'd much rather have a little bump in price every once in a while than to go back to no insurance available to me at all.


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## Luddly Neddite (Dec 29, 2014)

Neil N. Blowme said:


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Uh, you just might want to think that through and edit accordingly.

FACT is, ObamaCare makes it easier for seniors.


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## Votto (Dec 29, 2014)

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C. S. Lewis


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## Neil N. Blowme (Dec 29, 2014)

Luddly Neddite said:


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Tell us how much money was taken from Medicare to help fund Obamacare.  Edit this.

Smoking Gun Obama Admits He Cut Billions from Medicare to Fund Obamacare - Guy Benson


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## Jroc (Dec 29, 2014)

Luddly Neddite said:


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the fact is Obamacare hasn't even been fully implemented yet. plus all the wavers, senors will get screwed in the end


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## Mr. H. (Dec 29, 2014)

Neil N. Blowme said:


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In other news...
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/28/us/obamacare-medicaid-fee-increases-expiring.html?_r=0


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## Neil N. Blowme (Dec 29, 2014)

Obama stole money that people earned over their lives for their old age.


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## Mr. H. (Dec 29, 2014)

Jroc said:


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That's why I use Soap On A Rope!


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## Jroc (Dec 29, 2014)

dblack said:


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What makes more sense? Being able to tailor a policy to accommodate your own personal needs and pay for that? Or pay for government mandated services that you don't need and will never use?


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## Carla_Danger (Dec 29, 2014)

MaryL said:


> I just paid 44 bucks  for medicine that  used to cost me 50 cents. No kidding. Thanks to Obama.




Back in 1929?  LOL!


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## Carla_Danger (Dec 29, 2014)

My insurance has stayed the same rate.  Why isn't that on the poll?  And where's pineapple?


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## Jroc (Dec 29, 2014)

Carla_Danger said:


> My insurance has stayed the same rate.  Why isn't that on the poll?  And where's pineapple?




You must be a government worker


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## Neil N. Blowme (Dec 29, 2014)

The teachers in Wisconsin trash their capitol and the democrats leave the state to hide and it's "Speaking Truth to Power".  The Tea Party gathers peacefully and it's called "An angry racist mob".


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## Vandalshandle (Dec 29, 2014)

Neil N. Blowme said:


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Niel, You are not a senior. My advice to you is to stick to posting about things you know about. I fell off my motorcycle last Fall, and had to go by ambulance to the emergency room 35 miles away, where I had emergency treatment, an x ray, and a cat scan. Total out of pocket cost to me was $255. Total bills from imaging, hospital, and ambulance, over $6,000. I repeat. As a senior, I have no problem with Medicare, either before, or after ACA.


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## Jroc (Dec 29, 2014)

Vandalshandle said:


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Obamacare hasn't gotten to you yet.... It will though gramps


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## Neil N. Blowme (Dec 29, 2014)

Vandalshandle said:


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Fuck you.  I'm a senior and Obama took 700 million from medicare.  You're one person.  I'll post and you can comment, but you don't know me so shove your comments about me up your ass.  Dipshit.


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## WelfareQueen (Dec 29, 2014)

My sister said her coverage went up $183 dollars a month.  Didn't Obama say the ACA would _*lower *_costs?


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## Jroc (Dec 29, 2014)

WelfareQueen said:


> My sister said her coverage went up $183 dollars a month.  Didn't Obama say the ACA would _*lower *_costs?




Still waiting for my $2500 price drop..


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Dec 29, 2014)

"Obamacare sucks!"

Not if you couldn't afford health insurance before the implementation of the ACA, and now you can afford health insurance.

Not if you have an adult child in college who is allowed to remain on your health insurance.

Not if before the passage of the ACA you were denied health insurance because of a preexisting condition, and now you have health insurance.

For millions of Americans who now have access to affordable healthcare, the ACA doesn't 'suck.'

Consequently, the problem isn't the Act, the problem is with you and most others on the right and your unwarranted opposition to the ACA for purely partisan reasons, along with your efforts to undermine the Act, rather than working to help address its deficiencies – or putting forward you own plan to ensure all American have access to affordable healthcare.

Going back to the bad old days when millions couldn't afford health insurance, as most on the right seem to advocate, is not an option.


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## Jroc (Dec 29, 2014)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> "Obamacare sucks!"
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> Not if you couldn't afford health insurance before the implementation of the ACA, and now you can afford health insurance.
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The whole law was partisan...All those problems you mentioned were minor things that could have been fixed easily without screwing up the entire system


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## WelfareQueen (Dec 29, 2014)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> "Obamacare sucks!"
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> Not if you couldn't afford health insurance before the implementation of the ACA, and now you can afford health insurance.
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I can see you've memorized the talking points.    Too bad they've complete bullshit.  

Maybe all the folks who have told you their personal experiences in this thread are liars?

Or Maybe these guys are the liars....?  I think folks can decide for themselves.


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## Neil N. Blowme (Dec 29, 2014)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> "Obamacare sucks!"
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> Not if you couldn't afford health insurance before the implementation of the ACA, and now you can afford health insurance.
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Of course millions now have insurance.  They have insurance because Obama stole the money from seniors on medicare and working people who were paying for insurance.  Typical leftist.


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## Jroc (Dec 29, 2014)

Neil N. Blowme said:


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Some people think shifting people who formally paid for their own medical insurance to Medicaid is a good thing.


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## Neil N. Blowme (Dec 29, 2014)

Obama lied and now the lefty tools show up to defend him even after the American people totally rejected them at the polls.


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## Neil N. Blowme (Dec 29, 2014)

Jroc said:


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I know.  They're the problem.


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## Vandalshandle (Dec 29, 2014)

Neil N. Blowme said:


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Neil, you are starting to make me think that you don't like me.....

That saddens me, but you still don't know shit about health insurance.


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## Vandalshandle (Dec 29, 2014)

Let's get to the bottom line, folks. ACA is NOT going to be repealed. Millions of Americans are NOT going to allow you to leave them with no resources for medical care. The USA IS going to join the rest of the industrialized world by providing one form or another of universal health care. If you want to scream and bitch about  it, well go ahead. Just know that you are pissing into the wind, and that the wind does not listen to you. Frankly, this issue is so settled now that it is just amusing to many of us that you are still beating this dead horse.

Carry on!


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## Neil N. Blowme (Dec 29, 2014)

Vandalshandle said:


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If you want me to like you then stop the insults.  Attack my points.  700 million taken from medicare to fund obamacare.  Do you deny that?  Higher insurance premiums and deductibles for those who previously had their own insurance.  Obama lied.  If you disagree the tell us why.


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## jon_berzerk (Dec 30, 2014)

Neil N. Blowme said:


> Poor seniors are the ones who really got screwed by Obamacare.




everyone except* big insurance* got screwed by the ACA


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## Vandalshandle (Dec 30, 2014)

Neil N. Blowme said:


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Neil, I have no income except SS. I have no pensions, and no annuities. I have Medicare, and I have my savings. Every year, my SS is slightly increased based on an inflation formula. I am not in agreement with that formula, but I can live with it. I have Medicare, which my grandparents would have loved to have, and did not. Nothing in ACA has cost me a dime, and I am rewarded every day, knowing that people who used to be left to die, now have a chance to get the care they need, because of ACA. That being said, just what the hell are you so pissed about? I mean, how has ACA diminished your life?


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## Neil N. Blowme (Dec 30, 2014)

Vandalshandle said:


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You feel rewarded?  Obama & company took 700 million from OUR fund to give to people who didn't earn it so they can be insured right when baby boomers are flooding Medicare?  LOL.


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## lutraphile (Dec 30, 2014)

Neil N. Blowme said:


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It wasn't true when Romney said it, and it still isn't true
Mitt Romney said Barack Obama robs Medicare of more than 700 billion to pay for Obamacare PolitiFact


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## Neil N. Blowme (Dec 30, 2014)

lutraphile said:


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I've read that.  It's typical double speak.  When you cut funds and put them somewhere else it's called "robbing Peter to pay Paul". From your article: 

"The only element of truth here is that the health care law seeks to reduce future Medicare spending, and the tally of those cost reductions over the next 10 years is $716 billion. The money wasn’t "robbed," however, and other presidents have made similar reductions to the Medicare program."

The difference is the other presidents made cuts, period.  Obama made the cut AND then added that cut to Obamacare.  He robbed Peter to pay Paul.  That's why democrats got crushed last month.


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## Neil N. Blowme (Dec 30, 2014)

Liars.

Obama s Robbery of Medicare to Fund Obamacare in One Chart National Review Online


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## Mac1958 (Dec 30, 2014)

.

Our Humana premiums went up about 32% the first year (as I recall) and about 10% for 2015.

The premiums have not been the problem, the reduced access and greatly increased hassle factor (due to providers dropping our plan) have, and it has affected us negatively, mostly my teenage daughter (who needed knee surgery this year).  I don't like see her cry in frustration.

I deal with my own frustration by remembering that this is what happens when an important issue becomes politicized, and I blame both parties for continuing to allow our "health care system" to include six (6) different delivery/payment protocols at the same fucking time.

Partisan politics pollutes everything it touches.

.


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## JoeB131 (Dec 30, 2014)

Jroc said:


> it never went up this much in one year. Mandated coverage, increasing prices, and we haven't seen anything yet



Those Roids did a lot of damage, what can I say.  

Funny, my insurance went down this year.


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## JoeB131 (Dec 30, 2014)

Isn't it amazing that health care premiums only went up for Right Wingers?


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## Judicial review (Dec 30, 2014)

JoeB131 said:


> Isn't it amazing that health care premiums only went up for Right Wingers?



Someones gotta tell you..........  I'm sorry, but you need to repeat k-12 again.  Don't worry son, because most people here don't get it the first time.


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## JoeB131 (Dec 30, 2014)

Jroc said:


> What makes more sense? Being able to tailor a policy to accommodate your own personal needs and pay for that? Or pay for government mandated services that you don't need and will never use?



i wouldn't know. the vast majority of us are in group plans. 

You know, I usually don't treat you seriously because I think you are kind of nuts from all the swirlies the _goyim_ gave you as a child, but you don't tell us what kind of plan you have (are you in a group plan or are you in an individual plan) or what it covers.  You don't tell us what you were paying before ObamaCare and what it actually covered.   So we are expected to accept on faith that your premiums went up $60.00 a month without telling us what they were before that. 

The problem with ObamaCare is that instead of doing a single payer system like every other industrialized country, it tried to extend the awful matrix of private and public plans to cover everyone, and prevent the insurance companies from doing shit like calling your teenage acne a pre-existing condition for your cancer.  so you are paying $60.00 more a month, but your insurance company can't tell you they don't cover that cancer you got from all those roids you take.


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## JoeB131 (Dec 30, 2014)

Neil N. Blowme said:


> Fuck you. I'm a senior and Obama took 700 million from medicare. You're one person. I'll post and you can comment, but you don't know me so shove your comments about me up your ass. Dipshit.



700 million from Medicare isn't that much.  Medicare's annual budget is 500 BILLION.   It's going to go up to 700 Billion by fiscal 2018 due to the aging population and increases in medical inflation.


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## JoeB131 (Dec 30, 2014)

It should also be pointed out that if the GOP and some democrats hadn't opposed a Medicare buy in for those over 55 or a public option, a lot of these problems could have been avoided.


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## JoeB131 (Dec 30, 2014)

Jroc said:


> Some people think shifting people who formally paid for their own medical insurance to Medicaid is a good thing.



which people are those?  Did they get insurance that covered much of anything? You leave a lot of details out and then expect to have a debate.


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## Carla_Danger (Dec 30, 2014)

WelfareQueen said:


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Uninformed, ignorant, lying RWers?  Surely not!


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## Carla_Danger (Dec 30, 2014)

Jroc said:


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No, I work for an evil corporation.


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## Jroc (Dec 30, 2014)

JoeB131 said:


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You and the "Riods" thing. I don't need Them, never seen them..Quit hatin.... People who have their own business like myself  and have to buy their own health insurance are screwed with this Obamacare crap. i was once able to buy very inexpensive insurance and tailor a policy to meet my needs not anymore everything is so high and going up. Where's my $2500? we have not yet seen the full damage of Obamacare ..We will


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## Vandalshandle (Dec 30, 2014)

Ok, Neil, I concede. You are a senior. In fact, I think that you are the guy who lives on the corner of my street with his head out the window, yelling at kids to get off his lawn. I am absolutely SHOCKED that politicians shift financial  resources around in the federal government. Who would have thought it? I guess that must be an Obama invention. Bush, on the other hand, simply created an RX giveaway, adding RX to Medicare in the biggest entitlement increase since FDR, and didn't even attempt to fund it at ALL. Then, to add insult to injury, approved a deal whereby it is now against the law for the government to even attempt to bargain with pharmaceutical companies for the lowest possible prices for their products. I'll bet that every executive at Boeing would have an instant orgasm with a deal like that.


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## Neil N. Blowme (Dec 30, 2014)

JoeB131 said:


> Isn't it amazing that health care premiums only went up for Right Wingers?



After the last six years of Democrat lies, I would have a difficult time believing anything a democrat says.


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## JoeB131 (Dec 30, 2014)

Jroc said:


> You and the "Riods" thing. I don't need Them, never seen them..Quit hatin.... People who have their own business like myself and have to buy their own health insurance are screwed with this Obamacare crap. i was once able to buy very inexpensive insurance and tailor a policy to meet my needs not anymore everything is so high and going up. Where's my $2500? we have not yet seen the full damage of Obamacare ..We will



Yeah, guy, sure, you just have unnatural muscles and temper issues from nature. Got it. 

If you had inexpensive insurance, it probably didn't really cover anything.  Which I guess is okay if it's just you, but eventually when you do get sick,someone is going to end up covering that.  

Look, we could have had a single payer, a public option or even a Medicare Buy In that would have eliminated many of these problems.


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## Neil N. Blowme (Dec 30, 2014)

JoeB131 said:


> Jroc said:
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> > You and the "Riods" thing. I don't need Them, never seen them..Quit hatin.... People who have their own business like myself and have to buy their own health insurance are screwed with this Obamacare crap. i was once able to buy very inexpensive insurance and tailor a policy to meet my needs not anymore everything is so high and going up. Where's my $2500? we have not yet seen the full damage of Obamacare ..We will
> ...



Why did Vermont dump single payer?


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 30, 2014)

Jroc said:


> it never went up this much in one year. Mandated coverage, increasing prices, and we haven't seen anything yet



LOL, poor baby.  $60 is chump change, imagine the cost to those with a crap policy who need major surgery.  Our bill for dinner in Walnut Creek last night was $76.00


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## JoeB131 (Dec 30, 2014)

Neil N. Blowme said:


> Why did Vermont dump single payer?



they didn't dump it, they didn't implement it because they couldn't control costs which are set at the national level. 

You can't implement single payer without getting control of the whole ball of wax, including eliminating private insurance and controlling costs at hospitals.


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## JoeB131 (Dec 30, 2014)

Wry Catcher said:


> LOL, poor baby. $60 is chump change, imagine the cost to those with a crap policy who need major surgery. Our bill for dinner in Walnut Creek last night was $76.00



I love how J'Roids tells us how really successful he is, and then whines about paying $60.00 more a month for something.


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## Neil N. Blowme (Dec 30, 2014)

JoeB131 said:


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You mean total government control.


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## BlueGin (Dec 30, 2014)

Jroc said:


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Jroc said:


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Especially since loop holes now allow doctors to stop taking new Medicaid patients... So they aren't.


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## JoeB131 (Dec 30, 2014)

Neil N. Blowme said:


> You mean total government control.



Yes, I mean single payer across the country, with prices set on what they cost to provide, not what providers can wrangle out of people under duress.  

That's why it costs $1000 to have an MRI in the US and $200 in France.


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## JoeB131 (Dec 30, 2014)

BlueGin said:


> Especially since loop holes now allow doctors to stop taking new Medicaid patients... So they aren't.



Then close the fucking loopholes and TELL them they have to take a certain number of medicaid patients. 

Problem solved.


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## BlueGin (Dec 30, 2014)

JoeB131 said:


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Tell that to Obama. His loop holes.


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## dblack (Dec 30, 2014)

JoeB131 said:


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TELL!!!

Is there a jackboot you won't lick?


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## JakeStarkey (Dec 30, 2014)

Wow, that means you have to pay for your real insurance instead of the weak catastrophic package that socializes your risk and allows you to pocket the difference while we are on the hook if something goes wrong.
*Damn! My health Insurance went up anther $60 a month. Obamacare sucks!*


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## JoeB131 (Dec 30, 2014)

BlueGin said:


> Tell that to Obama. His loop holes.



Hey, I'd be perfectly happy to go back and replace the ACA with single payer like every other civilized country has.


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## JoeB131 (Dec 30, 2014)

dblack said:


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Hey, they are licensed by the state, they should shoulder some of the burden.  Our medical system isn't some country doc bartering for eggs.  It's based on providing a lot of infrastructure so these guys can practice. 

Now you guys are the ones who INSIST that we have to have some kind of private enterprise involved instead of just having single payer system like everyone else has.  I'm not sure why, without you blurting out the word "Freedom" and "Liberty" like they mean anything.


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## BlueGin (Dec 30, 2014)

dblack said:


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He needs to expect more doctors turning down patients. Especially when they get fined huge amounts of money by Medicaid every year. Treating those patients is not cost effective.


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## dblack (Dec 30, 2014)

JakeStarkey said:


> Wow, that means you have to pay for your real insurance instead of the weak catastrophic package that socializes your risk and allows you to pocket the difference while we are on the hook if something goes wrong.
> *Damn! My health Insurance went up anther $60 a month. Obamacare sucks!*



If the real issue here is you that your panties are in a wad because "your tax dollars" are going to help people in need, that can be fixed. Repeal EMTALA and make people pay their way. I'd support all such efforts. But that's not the real issue, is it? This is more Fakey Jakey nonsense.


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## JoeB131 (Dec 30, 2014)

BlueGin said:


> He needs to expect more doctors turning down patients. Especially when they get fined huge amounts of money by Medicaid every year. Treating those patients is not cost effective.



you don't take your quota, we pull your license.  Problem solved.


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## JakeStarkey (Dec 30, 2014)

Nah, you catastrophic insurance suckers want to suck off the rest of the insurance industry's customers.

Not going to happen anymore.


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## BlueGin (Dec 30, 2014)

JoeB131 said:


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Nope. They are already short on doctors as retiring doctors aren't being replaced. Fines and insurance make it too hard for doctors to make a living.


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## dblack (Dec 30, 2014)

JoeB131 said:


> Hey, they are licensed by the state, they should shoulder some of the burden.  Our medical system isn't some country doc bartering for eggs.  It's based on providing a lot of infrastructure so these guys can practice.



Yeah. We all have to suck government cock along with you. No thanks.



> Now you guys are the ones who INSIST that we have to have some kind of private enterprise involved instead of just having single payer system like everyone else has.  I'm not sure why, without you blurting out the word "Freedom" and "Liberty" like they mean anything.



THIS guy has always said single payer would be better than the corporatist sellout you're shilling for. ACA is the worse or both worlds. All the corrupt greed of corporate capitalism, all the chickenshit graft of bureaucratic government. Right up your fascist alley.

If we want to socialize health care we should do it sanely, locally - along the lines of what we've done with public education. But this really isn't about socialism. It's about corporatism - state control of the economy for the benefit of the connected.


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## JoeB131 (Dec 30, 2014)

dblack said:


> If the real issue here is you that your panties are in a wad because "your tax dollars" are going to help people in need, that can be fixed. Repeal EMTALA and make people pay their way. I'd support all such efforts. But that's not the real issue, is it? This is more Fakey Jakey nonsense.



But the point is, most people aren't paying their way now.  

Here's the thing, all your whining about "Socialism" and "Freedom" and shit, the reality is that if you are healthy, you are paying for someone else's health care, and if you are sick, someone else is paying for yours.  I guess there is that guy who one year hit his exact number, but it's not many. 

Whenever I hear one of you guys talking about "Freedom" or "Liberty", it's that you want all the benefits of a civilized society and none of the liabilities. Someone else is carrying your weight.  I would love to round up all you Libertarians and ship your asses to Somalia. 

Now, those Socialist countries you hate so much, because they actually put the well-being of their citizens over illusions of "liberty", they spend 8-11% of their GDP on health care.  In the US we spend 18% of our GDP, most of it going to non-value added processes like CEO salaries and stockholder dividends.


----------



## dblack (Dec 30, 2014)

JakeStarkey said:


> Nah, you catastrophic insurance suckers want to suck off the rest of the insurance industry's customers.
> 
> Not going to happen anymore.



Yep... that's what I thought. You don't want to solve the problem. You want to use it as an excuse to stick it in deeper.


----------



## JoeB131 (Dec 30, 2014)

BlueGin said:


> Nope. They are already short on doctors as retiring doctors aren't being replaced. Fines and insurance make it too hard for doctors to make a living.



Again, not a problem.  Make medical school free to anyone who is smart enough.  Problem solved.  

Everyone else in the world has already figured this out...


----------



## BlueGin (Dec 30, 2014)

JoeB131 said:


> BlueGin said:
> 
> 
> > Nope. They are already short on doctors as retiring doctors aren't being replaced. Fines and insurance make it too hard for doctors to make a living.
> ...


How is that problem solved? They still can't afford to be in practice. And yes I do realize libs think everyone is supposed to work for free...well ...except for  themselves of course.


----------



## dblack (Dec 30, 2014)

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > If the real issue here is you that your panties are in a wad because "your tax dollars" are going to help people in need, that can be fixed. Repeal EMTALA and make people pay their way. I'd support all such efforts. But that's not the real issue, is it? This is more Fakey Jakey nonsense.
> ...



I'm not sure you understand how sick this sort of argument is. Dipshits like you vote for dumbass laws that socialize costs, and then use it as an excuse to enslave everyone under the yoke of the "benevolent" state. Get fucked, fascist.



> .... Somalia.



There you go! SOMALIA!!!!!!! For the win!


----------



## JakeStarkey (Dec 30, 2014)

dblack, you are not enslaved.  What a bunch of hyperbolic malarkey.  Take a hike.


----------



## dblack (Dec 30, 2014)

JakeStarkey said:


> dblack, you are not enslaved.  What a bunch of hyperbolic malarkey.  Take a hike.



A hike sounds nice. I should probably do it before your corporate masters make it illegal. Is there a jackboot you won't lick?


----------



## Vandalshandle (Dec 30, 2014)

Here we go again with the old, "We will disincentize all the medical professionals from practicing medicine" argument. I have been hearing that since Medicare went in to effect in 1966. Just how long am I going to have to wait for this disaster to happen? I know that the average RW individual lives and breathes by spreading fear and prophesies of disaster, but I mean, I live in an age restricted community, where over 70% of the 35,000 residents are on Medicare, and I never have to wait more than 10 days to see my primary care Physician.


----------



## Jroc (Dec 30, 2014)

Wry Catcher said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > it never went up this much in one year. Mandated coverage, increasing prices, and we haven't seen anything yet
> ...


Crap policy? insurance should be just that. the policies I had covered everything after a deductible was paid. So "major surgery" wouldn't be a problem try to keep up


----------



## Jroc (Dec 31, 2014)

JoeB131 said:


> Neil N. Blowme said:
> 
> 
> > You mean total government control.
> ...


Non profit healthcare yeah thats  agood one where's the incentvie to develope new drugs and new


JoeB131 said:


> Neil N. Blowme said:
> 
> 
> > You mean total government control.
> ...



You be the first one crying about long lines and waiting lists for medical procedures. Competition lowers costs, and profit is a good thing. It breeds innovation.  We are number one in medical innovation and new drug development. Government interference increases prices for everything. You people and your faith in rich politicians who don't produce anything. They simply create and feed the bureaucracy which cost us money. They spend 500 million on simple website and it still doesn't work right


----------



## Jroc (Dec 31, 2014)

JoeB131 said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > You and the "Riods" thing. I don't need Them, never seen them..Quit hatin.... People who have their own business like myself and have to buy their own health insurance are screwed with this Obamacare crap. i was once able to buy very inexpensive insurance and tailor a policy to meet my needs not anymore everything is so high and going up. Where's my $2500? we have not yet seen the full damage of Obamacare ..We will
> ...




It must be tough for you to be a broken down old man and only in your 50s. People like you are  drag on our healthcare system. Take better care of yourself and you wont cost us so much.


----------



## Political Junky (Dec 31, 2014)

Neil N. Blowme said:


> Poor seniors are the ones who really got screwed by Obamacare.


How's that? Seniors have Medicare in spite of the Right.


----------



## Political Junky (Dec 31, 2014)

Neil N. Blowme said:


> Vandalshandle said:
> 
> 
> > Neil N. Blowme said:
> ...


That was overpayment for Medicare Advantage .. Money saved by Obama.


----------



## Political Junky (Dec 31, 2014)

Jroc said:


> C_Clayton_Jones said:
> 
> 
> > "Obamacare sucks!"
> ...


Partisan in that people on the Right are the only ones bitching about higher costs.


----------



## Neil N. Blowme (Dec 31, 2014)

Political Junky said:


> Neil N. Blowme said:
> 
> 
> > Vandalshandle said:
> ...




Oh, for sure.  Obama has saved us a ton of money.  Yup.


----------



## Neil N. Blowme (Dec 31, 2014)

Political Junky said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > C_Clayton_Jones said:
> ...



They're most of the ones who work and pay taxes.


----------



## JoeB131 (Dec 31, 2014)

BlueGin said:


> How is that problem solved? They still can't afford to be in practice. And yes I do realize libs think everyone is supposed to work for free...well ...except for themselves of course.



Nobody has asked them to work for free.  We've asked them to work for a fair wage.  

Doctors in this country make $8000+ a month.  They aren't starving.


----------



## JoeB131 (Dec 31, 2014)

dblack said:


> 'm not sure you understand how sick this sort of argument is. Dipshits like you vote for dumbass laws that socialize costs, and then use it as an excuse to enslave everyone under the yoke of the "benevolent" state. Get fucked, fascist.



Guy, the only way you can afford medical care is by socializing costs.  This is kind of what you don't get.  

Fastest way to get to single payer is to make everyone have to buy their own health insurance rather than letting their jobs or the government do it.  The private insurance system would collapse in a week.  The young and healthy wouldn't buy insurance at all or would buy something so cheap it would put nothing into the pool, and the old wouldn't be able to get insurance for love or money. 

That's why you really can't treat health insurance like car insurance. Insurance is essentially gambling.  But since everyone is going to hit the jackpot, eventually, the house can't really win.


----------



## dblack (Dec 31, 2014)

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > 'm not sure you understand how sick this sort of argument is. Dipshits like you vote for dumbass laws that socialize costs, and then use it as an excuse to enslave everyone under the yoke of the "benevolent" state. Get fucked, fascist.
> ...



That is, indeed, what I "don't get". Because it isn't true. In fact, the opposite is true. Unless we plan to convert to socialism entirely, the only way we can afford health care is to 'unsocialize' as much of it as possible.


----------



## Wry Catcher (Dec 31, 2014)

Jroc said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > Jroc said:
> ...



Another example ^^^ which strongly suggests conservatives cannot comprehend the written word, or they're basically dishonest and need to misrepresent or edit what is written.

I'll repeat for all the conservatives challenged by the written word, quoted is what I wrote:

"LOL, poor baby.  $60 is chump change,* imagine the cost to those with a crap policy who need major surgery*.   Our bill for dinner in Walnut Creek last night was $76.00"

 Emphasis is added to the word "Imagine".  Now maybe other conservatives understand the post had nothing to do with the type of health insurance Jroc possesses.


----------



## Wry Catcher (Dec 31, 2014)

Neil N. Blowme said:


> Political Junky said:
> 
> 
> > Neil N. Blowme said:
> ...


^^^  Sarcasm -  evidence = foolishness ^^^


----------



## BlueGin (Dec 31, 2014)

Vandalshandle said:


> Here we go again with the old, "We will disincentize all the medical professionals from practicing medicine" argument. I have been hearing that since Medicare went in to effect in 1966. Just how long am I going to have to wait for this disaster to happen? I know that the average RW individual lives and breathes by spreading fear and prophesies of disaster, but I mean, I live in an age restricted community, where over 70% of the 35,000 residents are on Medicare, and I never have to wait more than 10 days to see my primary care Physician.


Nope. Doctors are refusing new Medicaid patients. That is a fact. Believe it or don't...I don't really care.


----------



## Vandalshandle (Dec 31, 2014)

BlueGin said:


> Vandalshandle said:
> 
> 
> > Here we go again with the old, "We will disincentize all the medical professionals from practicing medicine" argument. I have been hearing that since Medicare went in to effect in 1966. Just how long am I going to have to wait for this disaster to happen? I know that the average RW individual lives and breathes by spreading fear and prophesies of disaster, but I mean, I live in an age restricted community, where over 70% of the 35,000 residents are on Medicare, and I never have to wait more than 10 days to see my primary care Physician.
> ...



I am sure that some doctors do refuse Medicaid patients. Does that translate to, "There is a shortage of doctors treating Medicaid patients"? No, it does not. I moved here from New Orleans, and the inner city there, including the 9th Ward and the lower 9th ward was virtually all Medicaid patients. They were treated at the Hospital where I worked. Over 65% of them did not have insurance and could not pay their bill. That 65% was either reimbursed by state or federal funds, or cost shifted to you, by charging insured patients $25 for 2 aspirin. And, BTW, forget about bringing in your own pills. I tried, and they took them away from me. It is like trying to bring a picnic lunch into Disneyland.  I am sick to death of the Right claiming that they are being soaked to treat the poor. You have ALWAYS been soaked for treating the poor. At least now, those who can afford health insurance are no longer going to get free care at your expense by declining to buy insurance.


----------



## BlueGin (Dec 31, 2014)

Vandalshandle said:


> BlueGin said:
> 
> 
> > Vandalshandle said:
> ...


Yes it will mean there is a shortage of doctors treating Medicaid patients. And as an aside...Medicaid tries to make money  ( millions infact) fining those doctors and hospitals for the patients they treat every year and what they consider " unwarranted infections  and complications". If patients aren't being treated the fines can't be tacked on to the hospitals yearly and Medicaid can't pay their bills. Oh darn. Look at that. Wonder how the government will make back that revenue?


----------



## rdean (Dec 31, 2014)

Jroc said:


> it never went up this much in one year. Mandated coverage, increasing prices, and we haven't seen anything yet


If that's true, which I doubt, get up off you lazy ass and look for better insurance.  The rise in health care costs has been lower than in decades.  Exchanges have all kinds of insurance to choose from.  Go take a look.


----------



## dblack (Dec 31, 2014)

rdean said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > it never went up this much in one year. Mandated coverage, increasing prices, and we haven't seen anything yet
> ...



No, they don't. They only have the kinds of insurance that Congress, and their corporate sponsors, have approved for us.


----------



## Vandalshandle (Dec 31, 2014)

BlueGin said:


> Vandalshandle said:
> 
> 
> > BlueGin said:
> ...



Golly, Bue, I have been in the health insurance business for 50 years and I had no idea that Medicaid's primary focus is to fine hospitals to make money! Bet ya got that bit of insider information from Rush and company!


----------



## MaryL (Dec 31, 2014)

We are blackmailed into adopting the so called "affordable Health care program". Last year, I was taking generic Phenobarbital (or its cheaper generic  equivalent). The total cost, 50 cents. Even the full price was  less than twenty dollars.  Now that I have Humana, (Obama care health care I can afford), that new cost of that SAME medication with a co-pay is now... $44, WITH coverage. $44! Really? What is it about the "Affordable health" care thing that makes it...affordable? Is it just a scam to jack up prices by pharmaceutical companies? Something fishy going on here.


----------



## BlueGin (Dec 31, 2014)

Vandalshandle said:


> BlueGin said:
> 
> 
> > Vandalshandle said:
> ...


Nope. Read the information direct from the sources themselves. The two hospitals in my state that were both billed over $ 70 million dollars a piece .

See ...I am an analyst for the hospital. I know all about "insurance" as well as fines,pro fees .RAC audits and much more fun stuff. 

Ps. Also where I read about the loop holes that let the doctors decline new Medicaid patients.

Like I said believe it or don't... I don't care.


----------



## Vandalshandle (Dec 31, 2014)

BlueGin said:


> Vandalshandle said:
> 
> 
> > BlueGin said:
> ...



I'm glad that you are not offended by rejection of your conspiracy theories and fear mongering!


----------



## kiwiman127 (Dec 31, 2014)

My insurance stayed the same. 
I always find it amazing that people are in shock that their healthcare insurance premiums increased.  It an annual ritual and has been for decades.
Between 1999 and 2009 healthcare premiums went up 131% and nobody noticed? Now that's scary.


----------



## JoeB131 (Dec 31, 2014)

dblack said:


> That is, indeed, what I "don't get". Because it isn't true. In fact, the opposite is true. Unless we plan to convert to socialism entirely, the only way we can afford health care is to 'unsocialize' as much of it as possible.



the problem is, guy, you can't shop for your child's cancer treatment the way you shop for a big screen TV.  That's why the wonders of the Free Market (highly overrated) can't fix what ails health care. 

Letting people die because they are poor is unacceptable.  

Some things should be consumer commodities-  Cars, TV's, houses.   

Some things should be public services-  Police and Fire Protection, rule of law.  

The free market can't fix your child's cancer treatment.  You are going to spend whatever you can afford.  You aren't going to put it off until next year or make due with what you have like the TV.  

The only way to make it affordable is to 1) Have single payer that covers everyone and 2) Have that single payer entity control costs down to what they cost to provide, not what profit can be sucked out of it.


----------



## JoeB131 (Dec 31, 2014)

Jroc said:


> It must be tough for you to be a broken down old man and only in your 50s. People like you are drag on our healthcare system. Take better care of yourself and you wont cost us so much.



Uh, guy, I've seen pictures of you.  frankly, you look kind of freakish.  Although I think when I associate it with the batshit crazy stuff you say here, that has an effect.  

I'm in pretty good health for my age.  Neither of my parents even lived past their 50's.


----------



## MaryL (Dec 31, 2014)

As an  senior, I feel I have been tripped up.  I never had to pay 44  dollars  for what used cost me 55 cents. Till now, and that is WITH a deductible under the health  health care plan. Get that through  your thick heads.


----------



## JoeB131 (Dec 31, 2014)

Jroc said:


> You be the first one crying about long lines and waiting lists for medical procedures. Competition lowers costs, and profit is a good thing. It breeds innovation. We are number one in medical innovation and new drug development. Government interference increases prices for everything. You people and your faith in rich politicians who don't produce anything. They simply create and feed the bureaucracy which cost us money. They spend 500 million on simple website and it still doesn't work right



Competition doesn't lower cost. If it did, we'd have the lowest health care costs in the industrialized world, not the highest.  

We are #1 in innovations because we are the largest economy.  

I should also point out your buddies in the Zionist Entity have socialized medicine.  That we subsidize.  

How about subsidizing something for AMERICANS for a change?


----------



## JoeB131 (Dec 31, 2014)

Jroc said:


> Non profit healthcare yeah thats agood one where's the incentvie to develope new drugs and new



Hey, you ever hear about one of your co-religionists, Dr. Jonas Salk.  He developed the vaccine for Polio. And even though the world would have gleefully given him any reward he wanted for doing so, he gave away the formula for free to make sure it was produced as quickly as possible.   






Yeah, I know, amazing, isn't it.  How fucked up was that guy?  I mean doing something to serve humanity?


----------



## 1751_Texan (Dec 31, 2014)

Jroc said:


> it never went up this much in one year. Mandated coverage, increasing prices, and we haven't seen anything yet



Went up from what to what? There are a 100 reasons why your insurance would go up...to blame Obamacare is asinine.


----------



## BlueGin (Dec 31, 2014)

Vandalshandle said:


> BlueGin said:
> 
> 
> > Vandalshandle said:
> ...


Hmmm hmmm. That the best you got?


----------



## 1751_Texan (Dec 31, 2014)

Neil N. Blowme said:


> Poor seniors are the ones who really got screwed by Obamacare.



Seniors are not on Obamacare. Most seniors are on Medicare and a supplement insurance.


----------



## kiwiman127 (Dec 31, 2014)

1751_Texan said:


> Neil N. Blowme said:
> 
> 
> > Poor seniors are the ones who really got screwed by Obamacare.
> ...



Medicare did not increase for 2115, of course Medicare negotiates pricing with providers to keep the costs down.  As a matter of fact, the US and Turkey are the only two countries where the government doesn't negotiate costs with providers.


----------



## kiwiman127 (Dec 31, 2014)

MaryL said:


> As an  senior, I feel I have been tripped up.  I never had to pay 44  dollars  for what used cost me 55 cents. Till now, and that is WITH a deductible under the health  health care plan. Get that through  your thick heads.



Well Mary, when Medicare Part D was designed, part of the deal was that it was illegal for the US government to negotiate better pricing with Big Pharma.  You can thank GWB for that.  But when Obama was trying to find supporters for Obamacare, Big Pharma agreed to help support him.  The price for that help was the continuation of no negotiating drug prices with Big Pharma.  Americans are getting raped by Big Pharma, there's no doubt about that.  You can thank "W" and "O" for that.


----------



## Vandalshandle (Dec 31, 2014)

BlueGin said:


> Vandalshandle said:
> 
> 
> > BlueGin said:
> ...



Blue, you simply do not know what you are I cofounded 2 HMO's. Trying to explain to you what it took me 50 years to learn is like teaching a giraffe to roller-skate. I don't have the time or patience. Under the circumstances, I will, just get back to the bottom line. ACA is here to stay. It will not be repealed. You can piss and moan all you like, and it has absolutely no impact on the fact that this country is joining the rest of the industrialized world in adopting a health care system to fit the needs of the people. Whine about it, or get over it. I really don't care.


----------



## Vandalshandle (Dec 31, 2014)

kiwiman127 said:


> MaryL said:
> 
> 
> > As an  senior, I feel I have been tripped up.  I never had to pay 44  dollars  for what used cost me 55 cents. Till now, and that is WITH a deductible under the health  health care plan. Get that through  your thick heads.
> ...



This is absolutely correct, and it is why I just order over $100 in drugs from Canada today which would have cost me over $700 in the USA.


----------



## toxicmedia (Dec 31, 2014)

Jroc said:


> it never went up this much in one year. Mandated coverage, increasing prices, and we haven't seen anything yet


You're the biggest retard ever, because your insurance would have gone up anyway, like it has every year, for the last 30 years


----------



## Luddly Neddite (Dec 31, 2014)

1751_Texan said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > it never went up this much in one year. Mandated coverage, increasing prices, and we haven't seen anything yet
> ...



Yabut, according the RWs, insurance companies never raised their rates before ObamaCare became law. 

It still just astound me that the right is siding with insurance companies and against their own best interests.


----------



## Jroc (Dec 31, 2014)

Luddly Neddite said:


> 1751_Texan said:
> 
> 
> > Jroc said:
> ...



The insurance companies helped write the Obamacare law..Get a clue genius


----------



## Jroc (Dec 31, 2014)

toxicmedia said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > it never went up this much in one year. Mandated coverage, increasing prices, and we haven't seen anything yet
> ...


It was supposed to go down. Where's my $2500?


----------



## Harry Dresden (Dec 31, 2014)

Vandalshandle said:


> OMG! A loaf of bread is up to $1.99, thanks to Obama!


its 3 plus tax out here....


----------



## Jroc (Dec 31, 2014)

JoeB131 said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > It must be tough for you to be a broken down old man and only in your 50s. People like you are drag on our healthcare system. Take better care of yourself and you wont cost us so much.
> ...


You might be a bad risk. Do you know in any politicians?. Political connections are always helpful with socialized healthcare. Be careful what you wish for.


----------



## Harry Dresden (Dec 31, 2014)

Jroc said:


> Carla_Danger said:
> 
> 
> > My insurance has stayed the same rate.  Why isn't that on the poll?  And where's pineapple?
> ...


i am a retired govt worker....premiums went up $90 last Jan....this year its going up another $110.....and i am not getting anything more in my coverage....but for some things the co-pays have gone up....


----------



## Neil N. Blowme (Dec 31, 2014)

1751_Texan said:


> Neil N. Blowme said:
> 
> 
> > Poor seniors are the ones who really got screwed by Obamacare.
> ...



I'm speaking about the 700 billion theft for obamacare.


----------



## Jroc (Dec 31, 2014)

JoeB131 said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > Non profit healthcare yeah thats agood one where's the incentvie to develope new drugs and new
> ...



Profit is the incentive that fosters innovation genius. Confronting an epidemic like polio is a different issue entirely   



> An *incentive* is something that motivates an individual to perform an action. The study of incentive structures is central to the study of all economic activities (both in terms of individual decision-making and in terms of co-operation andcompetition within a larger institutional structure). Economic analysis, then, of the differences between societies (and between different organizations within a society) largely amounts to characterizing the differences in *incentive structures*faced by individuals involved in these collective efforts. Ultimately, incentives aim to provide value for money and contribute to organizational success


----------



## Jroc (Dec 31, 2014)

JoeB131 said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > You be the first one crying about long lines and waiting lists for medical procedures. Competition lowers costs, and profit is a good thing. It breeds innovation. We are number one in medical innovation and new drug development. Government interference increases prices for everything. You people and your faith in rich politicians who don't produce anything. They simply create and feed the bureaucracy which cost us money. They spend 500 million on simple website and it still doesn't work right
> ...


We don't have real competition idiot.... Trickle down government


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 1, 2015)

Jroc said:


> You might be a bad risk. Do you know in any politicians?. Political connections are always helpful with socialized healthcare. Be careful what you wish for.



Guy, here's the thing.  THe countries with socialized medicine live longer, spend less, they have a lower infant mortality rate.  

I don't worry about a socialized medicine state.   I worry that after paying a shitload of money into a private system, they are going to try to cheat me--- which is EXACTLY what Cigna did after I busted up my leg in 2007.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 1, 2015)

Jroc said:


> Profit is the incentive that fosters innovation genius. Confronting an epidemic like polio is a different issue entirely



Why is it different?  Frankly, Salk could have made millions from his discover, and no one would have begrudged him that.   

Do you really think that the people who make the discoveries are seeing huge profits?  Fuck no.  The stockholders see big profits.  The scientists who make the discoveries are usually on salary. They're good salaries, I guess, but like most wingnuts, you think the capitalist is a vital organ when he's really a parasite.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 1, 2015)

Jroc said:


> We don't have real competition idiot.... Trickle down government



Uh, the reason why government got involved is that when you only treat people you can make money for, you have a situation where people are only treated until they are broke. 

Again, the rest of the world has already figured this out. Even the Jews in the Zionist Entity.


----------



## Harry Dresden (Jan 1, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > You might be a bad risk. Do you know in any politicians?. Political connections are always helpful with socialized healthcare. Be careful what you wish for.
> ...


Joe living longer has mostly to do with the person not the medical system...if you dont go to the doctor and you dont take care of yourself,which is what many people do,than that fine medical system is moot....


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 1, 2015)

Harry Dresden said:


> Joe living longer has mostly to do with the person not the medical system...if you dont go to the doctor and you dont take care of yourself,which is what many people do,than that fine medical system is moot....



true enough.   So if you have socialized medicine and everyone has access to a doctor, then people will go to the doctor and take care of themselves.  Which is why countries with socialized medicine have longer life expectencies than we do. 

Wow, what a nutty concept.


----------



## Stephanie (Jan 1, 2015)

you were duped by The Democrats and Obama. give you the warm fuzzies?

SNIP:
*Obamacare: Even More of a Scam Than You Thought*
A welfare program by another name...




by
*Michael Walsh*
Bio
December 31, 2014 - 12:12 pm

It’s not “health care.” It’s not even “insurance.” It’s a giant, income-transferring welfare scam:


About seven out of every eight Obamacare insurance customers who enrolled between November 15 and mid-December are poor enough to qualify for taxpayer-funded subsidies designed to lower their monthly premiums. The Department of Health and Human Services reported that number Tuesday, saying it’s up from 80 per cent a year ago.

Americans who participate in government-brokered medical insurance can get subsidies from the federal treasury if their households earn less than four times the government’s official ‘poverty’ level. That situation describes 64 per cent of all U.S. residents, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation. But far more are qualifying, suggesting that the Obamacare subscriber base is dramatically tilted toward low-income earners.

And as poor Americans depend inreasingly on handouts to manage their monthly health insurance bills, the U.S. Supreme Court could be months away from invalidating the entire subsidy system that supports the 34 states that chose not to run their own Obamacare marketplaces… Insurers are bracing for the possibility that 87 per cent of their new customers in the 34 states without insurance exchanges could suddenly find Obamacare policies financially out of reach – leading to lapsed premiums and a systemwide collapse.

Admit it: you knew it was a scam from the way it was pushed through. Now, however, it’s clear what the plan all along was: 1) make it mandatory, 2) put the weight of the IRS behind it, 3) make premiums cripplingly “affordable,” 4) offer a “subsidy” carrot, and 5) make the subsidy level _just _too low for the middle class, so that the class Obama and the Left hate most would bear most of the burden.  In other words, reward your friends and punish your enemies.
Nice work, Democrats.

all of it here:
Obamacare Even More of a Scam Than You Thought PJ Tatler


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 1, 2015)

Staph is horrified at the thought of poor people getting health care.


----------



## dblack (Jan 1, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Staph is horrified at the thought of poor people getting health care.



I also heard she kicks puppies.


----------



## dblack (Jan 1, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > We don't have real competition idiot.... Trickle down government
> ...



In a free society, that's the way it works for everything. If you want freedom you have to accept the responsibility that comes with it. And I understand that many people no longer want freedom. But I think that's a mistake.


----------



## Jroc (Jan 1, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > You might be a bad risk. Do you know in any politicians?. Political connections are always helpful with socialized healthcare. Be careful what you wish for.
> ...




Stupid talking points. When you factor out car accidents and gun vigilance our life expectancy if at the top of the list. infant mortality rate is also calculated differently. Learn something.   



> *Infant Mortality*
> 
> At first glance, infant mortality appears to be a good measure of a health care system.  First, it assumes interaction with a health care system since most babies born in the industrialized world are born in a hospital or other health care facility.  It also satisfies the second criterion of assuming that health care professionals can affect the outcome, since doctors and nurses have a direct impact on the survival chances of a newborn.  If infant mortality were accepted as an adequate measure based on those two criteria alone, then the U.S. health care system is one of the least effective in the industrialized world.  This can be seen by constructing a table using the data on infant mortality utilized in the report from the Physicians for a National Health Program.  Table 2 shows that on infant mortality, the U.S. ranks below all nations save New Zealand.



Don t Fall Prey to Propaganda Life Expectancy and Infant Mortality are Unreliable Measures for Comparing the U.S. Health Care System to Others


----------



## Jroc (Jan 1, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > Profit is the incentive that fosters innovation genius. Confronting an epidemic like polio is a different issue entirely
> ...






How the feds block Ebola cures New York Post


----------



## Jroc (Jan 1, 2015)

dblack said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > Jroc said:
> ...




That's actually not the way it works i personally know a person with no health insurance who had a heart attack he was taken via Medevac helicopter  to U of M hospital for emergency surgery and is fine today


----------



## Jroc (Jan 1, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Staph is horrified at the thought of poor people getting health care.



Poor people get the best healthcare in the world here.


----------



## BlueGin (Jan 1, 2015)

Jroc said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > Staph is horrified at the thought of poor people getting health care.
> ...


Apparently Libs think the government doesn't turn down claims and stick patients with hospital bills. Ha ha... Not. They have a lot to learn.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 1, 2015)

dblack said:


> In a free society, that's the way it works for everything. If you want freedom you have to accept the responsibility that comes with it. And I understand that many people no longer want freedom. But I think that's a mistake.



Or maybe when freedom means the ability of those with wealth and power to abuse you, it really isn't "Freedom". 

When you work very hard to buy insurance, and that day comes when you need it, and someone with wealth and power thinks of some clever way to not pay, is that really "Freedom"?


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 1, 2015)

Jroc said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > Staph is horrified at the thought of poor people getting health care.
> ...



Really?  We have the worst medical system in the industrialized world, guy.  We are last in industrialized nations in life expectency, last in infant mortality, and we spend more than any other country in the world.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 1, 2015)

Jroc said:


> [Q
> 
> 
> 
> How the feds block Ebola cures New York Post



Yes, it's a good thing the FDA actually makes sure medicines are SAFE before we start injecting them into people.  

Those bastards!!!! 

I mean, we've had, what, one person die from Ebola?  Clearly, we need to throw out all the safeguards and start injecting people with untested treatements...


----------



## Jroc (Jan 1, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...


post #144... Learn something before you spew your stupidity over and over... Boy you're a miserable idiot aren't you? Even most liberals don't believed that idiocy


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 1, 2015)

Jroc said:


> Stupid talking points. When you factor out car accidents and gun vigilance our life expectancy if at the top of the list. infant mortality rate is also calculated differently. Learn something.



Yes, the old, they don't count preemies argument.  It's horseshit. 

Here's something from REAL doctors...  Maybe you could learn something, if the Roid's hadn't caused so much brain damage. 

_It would be comforting to attribute the poor ranking to a quirk in how the deaths are calculated. After all, not all countries define birth the same way. For example, in the United States, arrivals of all living infants are counted as births, but a few European countries (the Czech Republic, France, Ireland, the Netherlands, Norway and Poland) have more restrictive definitions. For example, France and the Netherlands report live births only if the infant weighs at least 500 grams — a little more than a pound — or were born at 22 weeks’ gestation or later.

 ‘The reporting differences are a minor part of the story but not an excuse for why the U.S. has such a high mortality rate.’ But these reporting differences cannot account for the full extent of the gap between countries, says Paul Wise, MD, a pediatrician at Packard Children’s and a health policy analyst at Stanford. “The reporting differences are a minor part of the story but not an excuse for why the U.S has such a high mortality rate.” _

True, we have more premature births- which happens when you have poor people who just wing it through a pregnancy instead of seeing an OB/GYN through the whole process. 

_The poor infant-survival rates in the United States are intrinsically linked to high rates of preterm births, those that occur when a woman is between 22 and 37 weeks pregnant, rather than full-term — 37 to 41 weeks. And the same socioeconomic divides seen in infant mortality rates are seen with preterm birth rates — mothers who are African American, live in certain states or experience high levels of emotional stress during their pregnancy are more likely to give birth preterm. And although fertility treatments and teenage pregnancies both raise the risk of preterm births, neither explains the diversity in infant mortality rates — states with high infant mortality have no higher rates of either._


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 1, 2015)

Jroc said:


> post #144... Learn something before you spew your stupidity over and over... Boy you're a miserable idiot aren't you? Even most liberals don't believed that idiocy



Who are "most liberals."  I just blew up that shithead talking point in the last post.


----------



## Jroc (Jan 1, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > In a free society, that's the way it works for everything. If you want freedom you have to accept the responsibility that comes with it. And I understand that many people no longer want freedom. But I think that's a mistake.
> ...




You're one of those stupid people Gruber was talking about. You think people like Obama aren't connected and paid for by "wealth and power"


----------



## Jroc (Jan 1, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > Stupid talking points. When you factor out car accidents and gun vigilance our life expectancy if at the top of the list. infant mortality rate is also calculated differently. Learn something.
> ...


LOL...What a bunch of crap. it's better to have a preemie here than anywhere else in the world, and we also have third world immigrants, legal and illegal flowing into this country that scew the numbers ...also Where's your link?


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 1, 2015)

Jroc said:


> You're one of those stupid people Gruber was talking about. You think people like Obama aren't connected and paid for by "wealth and power"



I'm sure that he is. 

They aren't the ones who think that the biggest problem in America is that rich people don't have enough and poor people shouldn't get health care because their taxes might go up.


----------



## Jroc (Jan 1, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > You're one of those stupid people Gruber was talking about. You think people like Obama aren't connected and paid for by "wealth and power"
> ...




Umm...Yeah ok.."the smart people"


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 1, 2015)

Jroc said:


> LOL...What a bunch of crap. it's better to have a preemie here than anywhere else in the world, and we also have third world immigrants, legal and illegal flowing into this country that scew the numbers ...also Where's your link?



Why do you care about a link, it's not like you were actually going to educate yourself. 

Gone too soon What rsquo s behind the high U.S. infant mortality rate - 2013 FALL - Stanford Medicine Magazine - Stanford University School of Medicine

Yeah, I guess it's better to be a preemie in the US than some third world shithole, but the point is, we have too many preemies to start with. Because we have too many poor people who don't have health insurance. 

_In the United States, almost one in eight babies is born between 22 and 37 weeks’ gestation. That’s nearly the highest rate in the industrialized world — second only to Cyprus. The U.S. prematurity rate is double that of Finland, Japan, Norway and Sweden, according to the 2013 report by Save the Children. _

_At any given gestational age, doctors in the United States are as good as doctors in other developed countries at keeping babies alive. _


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 1, 2015)

Jroc said:


> Umm...Yeah ok.."the smart people"



Yeah, emoticon boy.  The problem with republican rich people is that they are as clueless as the Romanovs. Just listen to Bush or Romney talk.  

And will probably end up the same way.


----------



## Jroc (Jan 1, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > Umm...Yeah ok.."the smart people"
> ...


Actually Democrats have more "rich people" and you've been reading too many conspiracy sites.


----------



## Harry Dresden (Jan 1, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Harry Dresden said:
> 
> 
> > Joe living longer has mostly to do with the person not the medical system...if you dont go to the doctor and you dont take care of yourself,which is what many people do,than that fine medical system is moot....
> ...


bullshit Joe.....i worked with men over 40 who had ins who would not go for a colonoscopy ....can you guess why?....that ins was doing them no good.....and if they ended up getting the cancer,it may be to late....access to medical care only works when the person gives a shit about themselves....


----------



## Harry Dresden (Jan 1, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...


medical system and health care are 2 different things....and if someone does not take care of themselves than both are kinda moot....and many people in this Country...DO NOT take care of themselves...even the ones who actually go and see their doctor...


----------



## dblack (Jan 1, 2015)

Jroc said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...


I said, "in a free society".


----------



## dblack (Jan 1, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > In a free society, that's the way it works for everything. If you want freedom you have to accept the responsibility that comes with it. And I understand that many people no longer want freedom. But I think that's a mistake.
> ...


No, that's fraud, and has nothing to do with what I was responding to.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 1, 2015)

Jroc said:


> Actually Democrats have more "rich people" and you've been reading too many conspiracy sites.



Guy, I don't need to read "conspiracy sites".  

All I have to do is listen to what they say.  

Mr. Romney was VERY CLEAR about what he stood for. 

"I like to be able to fire people".

"47% of you don't pay income taxes so I don't care about you." 

"In China, they have these plants where they have 120 women to a toilet, working ot make money for me. We need to be more like that!"  

Romney was very clear that he thought the biggest problem in America was that there were still people out there someone pulling down a middle class salary and he was going to totally put an end to that shit. 

And a bunch of you were still ready to vote for him because he was "White and Delightsome".


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Jan 1, 2015)

"Damn! My health Insurance went up anther $60 a month. Obamacare sucks!"

The ignorance and stupidity of this is typical of most on the right.

Your health insurance premium would likely have increased even if the ACA had not been enacted.

Those without access to affordable healthcare was one of the many problem the Act addressed; the rising cost and expense of health insurance and healthcare would have eventually placed most everyone's health insurance in jeopardy.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 1, 2015)

dblack said:


> No, that's fraud, and has nothing to do with what I was responding to.



NO, guy, that's not fraud.  

That's what THE LAW ALLOWED before the ACA was enacted.  An insurance company could go through your medical records and declare that the acne you had as a teen was a "existing precondition" for the cancer you have now.  

And here's the dirty little secret about employer provided health plans.  You have no legal recourse.  When the father of Nataline Sarkisyan sued Cigna to get them to pay for his daughter's liver transplant, Cigna took the position that their contract was not with the Sarkisyan family, but with Lexus, his employer, and he had no standing to sue them.


----------



## Jroc (Jan 1, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > Actually Democrats have more "rich people" and you've been reading too many conspiracy sites.
> ...


You got Romney on the brain. i didn't even support the man until it was a choice between him and Obama...Screw Romney


----------



## Jroc (Jan 1, 2015)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> "Damn! My health Insurance went up anther $60 a month. Obamacare sucks!"
> 
> The ignorance and stupidity of this is typical of most on the right.
> 
> ...


You mean im not getting my $2500. Obamacare was nothing but a bunch of crony deals which will make any problems we had much worst. 2000 pages, 33,000 pages of regulation. More bureaucracy, more cost


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 1, 2015)

Jroc said:


> You got Romney on the brain. i didn't even support the man until it was a choice between him and Obama...Screw Romney



Yes, I know, it's hard to find a wingnut who admits to supporting Romney at this point.  The poor guy. 

But this was the candidate you guys picked, even after he said crazy shit like "I like to fire people".


----------



## Luddly Neddite (Jan 1, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Staph is horrified at the thought of poor people getting health care.



Stephanie
Even though she has said she avails herself of the programs she says she's against.


----------



## dblack (Jan 1, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > No, that's fraud, and has nothing to do with what I was responding to.
> ...


If it's not fraud what are you complaining about? If you don't like insurance policies that exclude pre-existing conditions, don't buy one.


----------



## Jroc (Jan 1, 2015)

dblack said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



He thinks you have "legal recourse" against federal the government? You can always sue insurance companies, not so with the federal government. The preexisting conditions things was a relatively minor fix actually. Certainly not worth destroying the entire healthcare system of which 80% of the people were happy with.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 1, 2015)

dblack said:


> If it's not fraud what are you complaining about? If you don't like insurance policies that exclude pre-existing conditions, don't buy one.



Again, I don't buy it.  for most of us, our employers or unions do.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 1, 2015)

Jroc said:


> He thinks you have "legal recourse" against federal the government? You can always sue insurance companies, not so with the federal government. The preexisting conditions things was a relatively minor fix actually. Certainly not worth destroying the entire healthcare system of which 80% of the people were happy with.



which 80%.  

25% of people didn't have insurance or had inadequate insurance.  

The point is, you can't sue your insurance company if your employer is the one buying the policy.  THis is what we found out in the Sarkisyan case.  Mr. Sarkisyan didn't have standing, said the court.


----------



## dblack (Jan 1, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > If it's not fraud what are you complaining about? If you don't like insurance policies that exclude pre-existing conditions, don't buy one.
> ...



So, don't do that. 

Listen, you're hitting on all the reasons why insurance is bad way to finance health care, and I wholeheartedly agree. The existing system is broken and needs to change, but ACA changes it in exactly the wrong direction. Instead of reversing, or at least minimizing the damage of a dysfunctional insurance model, it expands it. It forces all of us to play a losing game and puts the very same corporations you're whining about in charge of it all. It's utterly insane.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 1, 2015)

dblack said:


> So, don't do that.
> 
> Listen, you're hitting on all the reasons why insurance is bad way to finance health care, and I wholeheartedly agree. The existing system is broken and needs to change, but ACA changes it in exactly the wrong direction. Instead of reversing, or at least minimizing the damage of a dysfunctional insurance model, it expands it. It forces all of us to play a losing game and puts the very same corporations you're whining about in charge of it all. It's utterly insane.



You are right.  We should have gone to a single payer system like every other country has.  But I don't think that's where you were going. 

You were going for a "we should all pay for health care out of pocket, go massively in debt to the banks and hope that when enough poor people die, that will bring down the cost of health care."


----------



## dblack (Jan 1, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > So, don't do that.
> ...



It would have been better than ACA. Obviously, I'd rather not have government in charge of healthcare, but if we're going to socialize, it can be done in relatively sane way.



> You were going for a "we should all pay for health care out of pocket, go massively in debt to the banks and hope that when enough poor people die, that will bring down the cost of health care."



Not really. I've got no major problem with safety nets for the poor. And they already exist. I'm opposed to bailing out the insurance companies with "mandated" customers.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 1, 2015)

dblack said:


> Not really. I've got no major problem with safety nets for the poor. And they already exist. I'm opposed to bailing out the insurance companies with "mandated" customers.



The alternative would be to let people buy insurance when they get sick.  that would bankrupt the system.  

The system is going to go bankrupt, anyway, until you get a single payer controlling costs.


----------



## HUGGY (Jan 1, 2015)

Jroc said:


> it never went up this much in one year. Mandated coverage, increasing prices, and we haven't seen anything yet



What a lying sack of steaming dog poop you are.  Health care costs tripled during the Bush years.  You people that want to blame Obama for every little hangnail and paper cut you get haven't taken responsibility for a single damned thing that was brought on by that idiot chimp. 

I don't blame the dems for being disappointed that Obama hasn't been able to do more of what he promised but then that's not my problem...I didn't vote for him.  But YOU assholes should be kissing the ground he walks on for guiding our country out of the worst financial disaster we have EVER faced.  

If Obama hadn't gotten the HMOs to take their stewardship of the costs of health care more seriously the money WASTED keeping YOUR sorry asses healthy would have doubled or tripled AGAIN!!!  

Tell me?...  Just WHAT pray tell has the GOP done about repairing the failing infrastructure of this country?  

That's what I thought...  NOTHING...they were too damned busy making sure Obama's occupancy of the white house failed.

Why don't you Christian Fascists just go ahead on with your end of times rapture bullshit and leave the good Americans the hell alone?


----------



## dblack (Jan 1, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Not really. I've got no major problem with safety nets for the poor. And they already exist. I'm opposed to bailing out the insurance companies with "mandated" customers.
> ...



No, that would be a dumb alternative. There are many others.



> The system is going to go bankrupt, anyway, until you get a single payer controlling costs.



The system was due for a radical change, which is why the insurance companies looked to government for help. That change could have, and should have, been led by the voluntary will of consumers - choosing alternatives that worked or them. Instead, it's been dictated by a coalition of Congress and the insurance industry.


----------



## Jroc (Jan 1, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > He thinks you have "legal recourse" against federal the government? You can always sue insurance companies, not so with the federal government. The preexisting conditions things was a relatively minor fix actually. Certainly not worth destroying the entire healthcare system of which 80% of the people were happy with.
> ...


What % of those people are illegals? People that shouldn't even be here ? You libs are funny. You cry that the federal government doesn't take care of our people, but you cheer as we let more and more people come here illegally and compete for our jobs and put a strain on our social services. Double talkers?


----------



## Jroc (Jan 1, 2015)

HUGGY said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > it never went up this much in one year. Mandated coverage, increasing prices, and we haven't seen anything yet
> ...



You're a moron and i'm Jewish you idiot.. oh yeah you dont care for Jews much...you should be happy they helped get your boy elected....Infrastructure? LOL.. please too much crony bullshit going on...



Competition lowers costs not some stupid government mandates


----------



## Spare_change (Jan 1, 2015)

Vandalshandle said:


> Neil N. Blowme said:
> 
> 
> > Poor seniors are the ones who really got screwed by Obamacare.
> ...



As a senior, I've never been more displeased with my health insurance. I've experienced a composite raise of over 30% for the past two years. Not too mention, the quadrupling of my deductible and my co-pay increasing 300%.


----------



## Jroc (Jan 1, 2015)

Spare_change said:


> Vandalshandle said:
> 
> 
> > Neil N. Blowme said:
> ...




You must be one of those rich guys Joe's been talking about


----------



## guno (Jan 1, 2015)

Spare_change said:


> Vandalshandle said:
> 
> 
> > Neil N. Blowme said:
> ...


BS ,medicare did not rise 30 percent


----------



## Neil N. Blowme (Jan 1, 2015)

guno said:


> Spare_change said:
> 
> 
> > Vandalshandle said:
> ...



Poor seniors are getting less bang for their buck.  It's common sense.  Only a deliberately partisan hack wouldn't see it.


----------



## Harry Dresden (Jan 1, 2015)

guno said:


> Spare_change said:
> 
> 
> > Vandalshandle said:
> ...


did he mention medicare?.....


----------



## Vandalshandle (Jan 1, 2015)

Spare_change said:


> Vandalshandle said:
> 
> 
> > Neil N. Blowme said:
> ...



Total, utter nonsense. All of us seniors who are not on Medicare Advantage pay exactly the same amount for Medicare, which means that I pay exactly what you pay. I get exactly the same benefits you get. In short, this is an out and out untrue statement. I am shocked that you even thought that you would not be called down with such a ridicules post.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 1, 2015)

dblack said:


> The system was due for a radical change, which is why the insurance companies looked to government for help. That change could have, and should have, been led by the voluntary will of consumers - choosing alternatives that worked or them. Instead, it's been dictated by a coalition of Congress and the insurance industry.



The problem is, consumers would have bought bargain basement policies that would have left them high and dry if they ever got seriously ill.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 1, 2015)

Jroc said:


> What % of those people are illegals? People that shouldn't even be here ? You libs are funny. You cry that the federal government doesn't take care of our people, but you cheer as we let more and more people come here illegally and compete for our jobs and put a strain on our social services. Double talkers?



Guy, if you fools were serious about the illegal problem, then maybe you need to talk to the Republican Chamber of Commerce for supporting amnesty.  

You want to end illegals, here's how you do it.  If you are caught with an illegal in your employ, you get fined $10,000 and are put on a government watch list for five years.  The second time you are caught doing it, it's a $100,000 fine and you have to put a sign up saying what you got caught doing.  Third time, government confiscates your business.


----------



## dblack (Jan 1, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > The system was due for a radical change, which is why the insurance companies looked to government for help. That change could have, and should have, been led by the voluntary will of consumers - choosing alternatives that worked or them. Instead, it's been dictated by a coalition of Congress and the insurance industry.
> ...



Some would have. So what? People fuck up. But people run government. And that means government fucks up too. When you mandate one solution for everyone it puts all our eggs in one basket. I deprives us of the freedom to find better ways to solve our problems.


----------



## Jroc (Jan 1, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > What % of those people are illegals? People that shouldn't even be here ? You libs are funny. You cry that the federal government doesn't take care of our people, but you cheer as we let more and more people come here illegally and compete for our jobs and put a strain on our social services. Double talkers?
> ...


You including me in us?...Screw the Chamber of commerce. I'm against the crony capitalist .Which is why i prefer the conservative, tea Party, types. You know the ones to you libs and establishment Republicans like to demonize so much. Penalizing employers works for me, as well as finishing the fence, electronic surveillance... Seal the boarder. I'm Not quit sure how importing poor people, and giving them government assistance helps this country


----------



## Harry Dresden (Jan 1, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > What % of those people are illegals? People that shouldn't even be here ? You libs are funny. You cry that the federal government doesn't take care of our people, but you cheer as we let more and more people come here illegally and compete for our jobs and put a strain on our social services. Double talkers?
> ...


come to my State and try that Joe.....and guess which political party will be against it and will be right there calling you a racist....


----------



## Spare_change (Jan 1, 2015)

guno said:


> Spare_change said:
> 
> 
> > Vandalshandle said:
> ...



Did I say I was talking about Medicare? Or, did you just make an ass out of yourself?


----------



## Spare_change (Jan 1, 2015)

Vandalshandle said:


> Spare_change said:
> 
> 
> > Vandalshandle said:
> ...



See how narrow minded you are??? Did I say anything about Medicare? Or, did you join the asses who made assumptions? I am shocked that you even thought that you would not be called down with such a stupid comment.


----------



## Jroc (Jan 1, 2015)

Spare_change said:


> guno said:
> 
> 
> > Spare_change said:
> ...




He's good at that actually


----------



## Vandalshandle (Jan 1, 2015)

Spare_change said:


> Vandalshandle said:
> 
> 
> > Spare_change said:
> ...



Oh! pardon me! You are a senior that is not covered by Medicare. By all means, report yourself to Ripley's, "Believe it, or not!". You will be in their next book!


----------



## Spare_change (Jan 2, 2015)

Vandalshandle said:


> Spare_change said:
> 
> 
> > Vandalshandle said:
> ...


Medicare IS an option - one I choose not to use. I want real healthcare ...


----------



## Spare_change (Jan 2, 2015)

Jroc said:


> Spare_change said:
> 
> 
> > guno said:
> ...




I guess it's good to have a skill, huh?


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 2, 2015)

dblack said:


> Some would have. So what? People fuck up. But people run government. And that means government fucks up too. When you mandate one solution for everyone it puts all our eggs in one basket. I deprives us of the freedom to find better ways to solve our problems.



Guy, you need to get over your "Freedom" fetish.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 2, 2015)

Jroc said:


> You including me in us?...Screw the Chamber of commerce. I'm against the crony capitalist .Which is why i prefer the conservative, tea Party, types. You know the ones to you libs and establishment Republicans like to demonize so much. Penalizing employers works for me, as well as finishing the fence, electronic surveillance... Seal the boarder. I'm Not quit sure how importing poor people, and giving them government assistance helps this country



I'm sorry you are too stupid to realize that you Teabaggers are tools for the people who REALLY run the GOP. 

You guys outlived your usefulness years ago. It's why the establishment deep-sixed all you guys in the primaries. 

Oh, yeah, fences are useless.  People can always get past fences.


----------



## Neil N. Blowme (Jan 2, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > You including me in us?...Screw the Chamber of commerce. I'm against the crony capitalist .Which is why i prefer the conservative, tea Party, types. You know the ones to you libs and establishment Republicans like to demonize so much. Penalizing employers works for me, as well as finishing the fence, electronic surveillance... Seal the boarder. I'm Not quit sure how importing poor people, and giving them government assistance helps this country
> ...



Congrats on the last election from the Tea Party.


----------



## Stephanie (Jan 2, 2015)

HUGGY said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > it never went up this much in one year. Mandated coverage, increasing prices, and we haven't seen anything yet
> ...



wow that was ugly. You have a lot of hate in your heart towards others in this country. And all over politics and not getting what you believe you deserve. You're worried about the infrastructure in this country go adopt a highway or a bridge or something. Instead you want to FORCE it on others to take care of things


----------



## Neil N. Blowme (Jan 2, 2015)

Articles Five Strikes Against Single-payer Healthcare


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 2, 2015)

Neil N. Blowme said:


> Congrats on the last election from the Tea Party.



the Teabaggers had nothing to do with the Apathy Election.   The GOP made sure that you guys got sandbagged in the primaries.   LIke when they actually encouraged blacks to vote Republican in MS.  That was SWEET.  

Not that the last election means anything.


----------



## Neil N. Blowme (Jan 2, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Neil N. Blowme said:
> 
> 
> > Congrats on the last election from the Tea Party.
> ...



All we need is 12 dems in the Senate to override a veto on repealing obamacare.  Easy.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 2, 2015)

Neil N. Blowme said:


> All we need is 12 dems in the Senate to override a veto on repealing obamacare.  Easy.



Yeah, but it ain't gonna happen.  The GOP knows that overturning ObamaCare at this point would be catastrophic for the insurance industry, and who do you think they actually work for?

God, you people are such RUBES!!!!  Look at the shiny thing. The Pretty Thing.


----------



## BlueGin (Jan 2, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > The system was due for a radical change, which is why the insurance companies looked to government for help. That change could have, and should have, been led by the voluntary will of consumers - choosing alternatives that worked or them. Instead, it's been dictated by a coalition of Congress and the insurance industry.
> ...


Uh huh.. Tis still happening under the ACA. Shall I send you the news letter I recieved that states the people who purchased the lower costing plans are being screwed by deductibles they can't meet and so are dropping out. Only to get screwed by the IRS in 2015 with fines for not being covered by insurance?


----------



## Neil N. Blowme (Jan 2, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Neil N. Blowme said:
> 
> 
> > All we need is 12 dems in the Senate to override a veto on repealing obamacare.  Easy.
> ...



LOL.  Better check your unicorn parking meter.


----------



## Vandalshandle (Jan 2, 2015)

Spare_change said:


> Vandalshandle said:
> 
> 
> > Spare_change said:
> ...



Spare, you really are a piece of work! You come on this board and piss and moan about how government controlled healthcare is making your insurance costs go up 30%. THEN, on challenge, you reveal that you don't even USE government controlled Health insurance, because you want REAL healthcare!

Spare, I do believe that you win the Spammy for the most asinine post of the day on this board!


----------



## BlueGin (Jan 2, 2015)

Next up. Free clinics closing due to lack of government funding and folks not giving donations due to Obama care .


----------



## Conservative65 (Jan 2, 2015)

Vandalshandle said:


> Spare_change said:
> 
> 
> > Vandalshandle said:
> ...


 
I don't use food stamps but the portion of taxes I pay that funds them has gone up. 

Since Obamacare requires people have healthcare, one does not have to use "government healthcare" in order for theirs to go up.


----------



## Conservative65 (Jan 2, 2015)

HUGGY said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > it never went up this much in one year. Mandated coverage, increasing prices, and we haven't seen anything yet
> ...


 
I don't determine when the rapture happens.  I can promise you those left behind won't have it very well.


----------



## Conservative65 (Jan 2, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > Actually Democrats have more "rich people" and you've been reading too many conspiracy sites.
> ...


 
Show me the quote where Romney said "I don't care about you". 

And a whole bunch of you guilt ridden white trash voted for Obama because electing a black eased that guilt.


----------



## Spare_change (Jan 2, 2015)

Vandalshandle said:


> Spare_change said:
> 
> 
> > Vandalshandle said:
> ...



Your stupidity is only overwhelmed by your ignorance ...  my private insurance costs went up 30%, even though I don't use government controlled health insurance. The increase is caused by the ACA compliance issue. 

Why do i use personal insurance rather than Medicare? Because treatments I receive are NOT covered by Medicare, AND because the doctors I use refuse to accept Medicare. 

Anything else you would like to assume .... and you DO know about assuming, don't you?


----------



## Vandalshandle (Jan 2, 2015)

BlueGin said:


> Next up. Free clinics closing due to lack of government funding and folks not giving donations due to Obama care .



Lions, and tigers, and bears...OH MY!!!!!


----------



## Vandalshandle (Jan 2, 2015)

Spare_change said:


> Vandalshandle said:
> 
> 
> > Spare_change said:
> ...



Sorry Spare, but by now, your credibility has gone south, as you continue to go north....


----------



## Conservative65 (Jan 2, 2015)

Vandalshandle said:


> Spare_change said:
> 
> 
> > Vandalshandle said:
> ...


 
The only one going south is you on your way to pucker up on Obama's ass.


----------



## Spare_change (Jan 2, 2015)

Vandalshandle said:


> Spare_change said:
> 
> 
> > Vandalshandle said:
> ...



When it's idiots like you who judge, I worry not.


----------



## Neil N. Blowme (Jan 2, 2015)




----------



## BlueGin (Jan 2, 2015)

Vandalshandle said:


> BlueGin said:
> 
> 
> > Next up. Free clinics closing due to lack of government funding and folks not giving donations due to Obama care .
> ...


Lost 11 in this state so far. More to close here and nationwide. Fact.


----------



## Neil N. Blowme (Jan 2, 2015)

Obamacare Torture Report Healthcare Reform Executioner Style krisheldmd


----------



## Jroc (Jan 2, 2015)

Neil N. Blowme said:


> Obamacare Torture Report Healthcare Reform Executioner Style krisheldmd


We haven't seen all the destruction which will happen because of Obamacare . Hopefully the Supreme courts takes care of the subsidies which will killl it


----------



## Neil N. Blowme (Jan 2, 2015)

Yep.  Employers are going to feel the government hammer now.


----------



## BlueGin (Jan 2, 2015)

Jroc said:


> Neil N. Blowme said:
> 
> 
> > Obamacare Torture Report Healthcare Reform Executioner Style krisheldmd
> ...


Apparently the liberals in this thread don't read the WSJ,NYT, Kaiser Healthcare News or Modern Healthcare. It's all right there in black and white .


----------



## Jroc (Jan 2, 2015)

BlueGin said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > Neil N. Blowme said:
> ...



Obama's word is gospel...That's why some pray to him. Who needs G-d when they have Obama?..


----------



## Vandalshandle (Jan 2, 2015)

I swear that the posts on this board are almost word for word what people were saying in 1965/1966 about Medicare. {sigh}


----------



## BlueGin (Jan 2, 2015)

Oh. You mean like in Obama's rush to get people to sign up he brokered a deal with doctors where he was to give them a 3 percent incentive to take on new patients to meet his quotas...Then expired  it...and is trying to make them accept 2012 rates now? Making it cost too much for them to take on more new patients ...so that the doctors are now backing out? Hmmm.


----------



## Spare_change (Jan 2, 2015)

BlueGin said:


> Oh. You mean like in Obama's rush to get people to sign up he brokered a deal with doctors where he was to give them a 3 percent incentive to take on new patients to meet his quotas...Then expired  it...and is trying to make them accept 2012 rates now? Making it cost too much for them to take on more new patients ...so that the doctors are now backing out? Hmmm.



Recent survey in the local paper (Colorado Springs Gazette) said that 61% of the doctors in this city won't accept Medicare or Tricare patients. Can't really blame them ....


----------



## Neil N. Blowme (Jan 2, 2015)

When Senator Schmuckie Schumer says Obamacare was a mistake, you've got a problem.


----------



## BlueGin (Jan 2, 2015)

Spare_change said:


> BlueGin said:
> 
> 
> > Oh. You mean like in Obama's rush to get people to sign up he brokered a deal with doctors where he was to give them a 3 percent incentive to take on new patients to meet his quotas...Then expired  it...and is trying to make them accept 2012 rates now? Making it cost too much for them to take on more new patients ...so that the doctors are now backing out? Hmmm.
> ...


Or Medicaid in this state.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 2, 2015)

BlueGin said:


> Next up. Free clinics closing due to lack of government funding and folks not giving donations due to Obama care .



Yes, yes, we've been hearing your wet dreams about how ObamaCare was going to kill us all, and you'll all be in front of the Death Panels Palin warned about.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 2, 2015)

Conservative65 said:


> Show me the quote where Romney said "I don't care about you".



Here's EXACTLY what that Mormon scumwad said. 

*These are people who pay no income tax. Forty-seven percent of Americans pay no income tax. So our message of low taxes doesn’t connect. So he’ll be out there talking about tax cuts for the rich. I mean, that’s what they sell every four years. And so my job is is not to worry about those people. I’ll never convince them that they should take personal responsibility and care for their lives."*

Now, besides the fact his numbers are wrong, it certainly shows an attitude. If you are so poor you don't pay income tax, he doesn't care about you. 



Conservative65 said:


> And a whole bunch of you guilt ridden white trash voted for Obama because electing a black eased that guilt.



I didn't vote for Obama in 2008. And I voted for him in 2012 because I think Mormons are inherently evil.  Romney pretty much proved that every time he opened his mouth.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 2, 2015)

BlueGin said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > Neil N. Blowme said:
> ...



Yes, we don't read Rupert Murdoch's propaganda.  

But here's the reality.  The justices aren't going to yank health coverage for 10 million people.  Ain't gonna happen.


----------



## BlueGin (Jan 2, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> BlueGin said:
> 
> 
> > Jroc said:
> ...


Nope. All the healthcare news updates from Kaiser Healthcare news and Modern Healthcare. Try again.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 2, 2015)

BlueGin said:


> Nope. All the healthcare news updates from Kaiser Healthcare news and Modern Healthcare. Try again.



You mean they all come from the company with a vested interest in the status quo?


----------



## BlueGin (Jan 2, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> BlueGin said:
> 
> 
> > Nope. All the healthcare news updates from Kaiser Healthcare news and Modern Healthcare. Try again.
> ...


Meaning they are updates of everything happening in the healthcare industry. Period.


----------



## Spare_change (Jan 2, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> > Show me the quote where Romney said "I don't care about you".
> ...


Last election really gave you a case of butthurt, huh?


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 2, 2015)

BlueGin said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > BlueGin said:
> ...



Meaning that if we ever went to Single Payer, they'd lose shitloads of money if health care cost what it actually cost to produce.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 2, 2015)

Spare_change said:


> Last election really gave you a case of butthurt, huh?



Not really.  If you are talking about 2012, I got what I wanted.  The Mormon Lost.  

2014, meh, you guys won the Cleetus Midterms because no one showed up.  Obama is ignoring you guys because he knows that you don't have any stature.


----------



## Spare_change (Jan 2, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Spare_change said:
> 
> 
> > Last election really gave you a case of butthurt, huh?
> ...



Reality really giving you a case of butthurt, huh?


----------



## BlueGin (Jan 2, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> BlueGin said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...


Meaning. You know nothing about what is going on in the healthcare industry and are just spewing Useless BS


----------



## Harry Dresden (Jan 2, 2015)

Vandalshandle said:


> Spare_change said:
> 
> 
> > Vandalshandle said:
> ...


im considered a senior but yet i aint old enough for medicare.....tell ripleys.....


----------



## Conservative65 (Jan 2, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> > Show me the quote where Romney said "I don't care about you".
> ...


So you voted against religion?  I think ****** Obama is inherently evil.  Bet you have a problem with me doing that yet you believe it's ok for you to do it.


----------



## Care4all (Jan 2, 2015)

Jroc said:


> it never went up this much in one year. Mandated coverage, increasing prices, and we haven't seen anything yet


Our Health insurance, mine and the hubby's has gone up every single year for the past 25 years....in one way or another...  premium might have stayed the same but deductibles or out of pocket expenses went up, or the deductibles stayed the same and premiums went way up....  and it does become a hardship, at some point, I can agree.

I do have some questions though, The ACA's mandate that insurance companies cover pre-existing conditions is the most expensive part of these mandates that would make your Insurance policy go up if your insurance policy never covered pre-existing conditions....BUT, GROUP POLICIES, which are the kind you get from your employer, ALREADY COVER pre-existing conditions by federal law, LONG long before the ACA....  and most all group policies already covered maternity coverage, and birth control etc....

So, my question is, did your insurance go up for other reasons than these mandated coverages that were already covered by your group insurance at work?  Was this just the insurance company's annual hike?

Or did your employer decide that he was going to pay less of his portion thus you had to pay more in your portion?


----------



## Conservative65 (Jan 2, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Spare_change said:
> 
> 
> > Last election really gave you a case of butthurt, huh?
> ...


Obama ignores because the arrogant zebra can't face he got his ass whipped.  

You keep coming up with more excuses.


----------



## MaryL (Jan 2, 2015)

I am still trying to understand why a cheap generic med like Phenobarbital that used to cost like 12 bucks  full price NOW cost me $44 AFTER a deductible.... Why is that it cost more NOW with Obama's forced health care program than full price WITHOUT coverage? What makes it so...affordable, Obama?


----------



## Conservative65 (Jan 2, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> BlueGin said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...


Single payer would be just another social welfare program designed to give all the same despite some paying more into it.


----------



## Conservative65 (Jan 2, 2015)

BlueGin said:


> Next up. Free clinics closing due to lack of government funding and folks not giving donations due to Obama care .


After that, more taxes because the bleeding hearts feel others need a nudge.


----------



## Conservative65 (Jan 2, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > The system was due for a radical change, which is why the insurance companies looked to government for help. That change could have, and should have, been led by the voluntary will of consumers - choosing alternatives that worked or them. Instead, it's been dictated by a coalition of Congress and the insurance industry.
> ...


And?  I thought you Liberals believed in choice.


----------



## Conservative65 (Jan 2, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > What % of those people are illegals? People that shouldn't even be here ? You libs are funny. You cry that the federal government doesn't take care of our people, but you cheer as we let more and more people come here illegally and compete for our jobs and put a strain on our social services. Double talkers?
> ...


No punishment for illegals?


----------



## Conservative65 (Jan 2, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > No, that's fraud, and has nothing to do with what I was responding to.
> ...


How much did you voluntarily contribute to help pay?


----------



## Conservative65 (Jan 2, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Staph is horrified at the thought of poor people getting health care.


I'm horrified at being forced to fund it for them.  I don't owe them healthcare.


----------



## Jroc (Jan 2, 2015)

Care4all said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > it never went up this much in one year. Mandated coverage, increasing prices, and we haven't seen anything yet
> ...


 Is Obama a liar?


----------



## william the wie (Jan 2, 2015)

Obama is playing to the base, the Republican base.


----------



## MaryL (Jan 2, 2015)

I have had persistent cough, it's probably just bronchitis. I have had it for 3 weeks, and Obama care passed this off to the "urgent care facility" that in turn charged me $20 for making me wait 2 hours  to tell me...nothing, Great, guys. really bloody freeing great! Take Musinex, call me  two weeks from now. That really helps! (cough cough cough)....


----------



## Care4all (Jan 2, 2015)

Jroc said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > Jroc said:
> ...


For most of those people having to use the Exchange because they could not afford to buy an Individual Plan anymore...Insurance costs went down even MORE than that $2500.....  As example, when Matt and I first moved to Maine, Matthew did not have a job and we were paying around $700 a month on his COBRA insurance for the two of us, until he could find a job with health care benefits....it was an awful lot of money for just 2 people to pay, when neither of us had jobs at the time....  so I began my hunt for Health care Insurance on the open Individual Market, and with Blue Cross Blue Shield Anthem, one of the 2 or 3 insurance companies we have in our State, it was $25,000 A YEAR for the two of us...both under 50, neither are smokers and neither of us took any meds, and these are questions the Insurance companies asked when applying...that was about 6-7 years ago....  needless to say, we became HAPPY with our $700 a month for our COBRA payment.....then shortly afterwards Matthew was able to find a job up here in Maine and get Insurance for the both of us through his employer...  Thank the Lord!

So yes, he was lying about ALL of us having our Insurance premium reduced, if he said ALL....  but most of those using the Obamacare exchange because Health Insurance was not provided by their employer and they were getting insurance on the individual market on their own, did save MORE than that...

There are exceptions, like Mr.H....  no denying that...


----------



## Neil N. Blowme (Jan 2, 2015)

Obamacare Broken Promises Montage:


----------



## Spare_change (Jan 2, 2015)

Jroc said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > Jroc said:
> ...



I assume you consider this a rhetorical question ....


----------



## Jroc (Jan 2, 2015)

Care4all said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...


So Obama sold a lie. He never read the law...It  use to be I could find fairly inexpensive heath insurance on the net. That day has passed....I want my $2500


----------



## MaryL (Jan 2, 2015)

Cheaper VS affordable. I want the health care I had last year, that was effective. But... I lost my job, because  of the rise in health care prices, now I get this generic Canadian/ British AMERICAN  social alternative. It doesn't work.  At least not as well as the old American health care system. Cough cough cough...any one have a cheap effective cough drop?


----------



## Care4all (Jan 2, 2015)

Conservative65 said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > Staph is horrified at the thought of poor people getting health care.
> ...


cigarette smokers don't owe Children Health care either...life sucks and then you die....

and many of these people getting subsidies on the exchange DO PAY TAXES too, so it is not just you paying for them, their own taxes are paying for themselves as well...

The poorest among us, already had Medicaid which paid for the most of that group category already, and long before Obamacare, was available to them.


----------



## Spare_change (Jan 3, 2015)

Care4all said:


> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...



.... but wasn't the 'poorest among us' the rationale for Obamacare?


----------



## Care4all (Jan 3, 2015)

Spare_change said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > Conservative65 said:
> ...


Apparently, a good deal of the poorest didn't even know they qualified for Medicaid before Ocare or in some cases too proud to take the help....

And I don't know if he ever used the poorest among us as one of his ''sells''? 

o-care gives some subsidy help to a family of 3 making $70-75k a year, if healthcare insurance is not provided by their employer...

so, it reaches lower to some upper middle class families, again, if healthcare benefits are not provided by their employers....  the o-care on the exchange is for people who work for a living, the Medicaid part covers those who primarily are not working, plus some very very low income families...is my understanding...


----------



## Spare_change (Jan 3, 2015)

Care4all said:


> Spare_change said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...



You don't 'remember' him claiming that there were 30 million people uninsured, and they were too poor to get insurance? You don't remember that? If the poor 'didn't know about Medicaid', I'm guessing the education program would be a hell of a lot cheaper than this monstrosity.

Now, explain to me by what possible rationale the government should help a family of 3 making $75K? Their irresponsibility should not be condoned, and then covered by my money.

Let's tell the honest truth - Obamacare was a political ploy ... it had nothing to do with, and has not enhanced, healthcare. In fact, it's made it worse. We won't even talk about the coercion, bribery, extortion, and theft it took to get it passed over the wishes of the American people. It was a naked political power grab designed to solidify our permanent underclass and tie them to the Democratic Party.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 3, 2015)

BlueGin said:


> Meaning. You know nothing about what is going on in the healthcare industry and are just spewing Useless BS



Meaning. I don't buy a bunch of panic talk.  Because you guys have been saying the sky is falling for six years now.


----------



## BlueGin (Jan 3, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> BlueGin said:
> 
> 
> > Meaning. You know nothing about what is going on in the healthcare industry and are just spewing Useless BS
> ...


Meaning you either can't or just don't read and make shit up to suit your agenda.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 3, 2015)

Conservative65 said:


> Single payer would be just another social welfare program designed to give all the same despite some paying more into it.



And that would be bad, why? 

YOu know, I really wonder about this brain defect in conservatives where they are absolutely horrified that rich people have to pay more in taxes.  

Initially, the argument was that you had Laffer curves and supply side, and tax cuts for rich people would pay for themselves.  But that didn't happen.  The debt exploded after the rich stopped paying their fair share. 

Then their argument was that if you gave the rich tax cuts, they'd create jobs.  But that shit didn't happen. At least not in this country, anyway.  I'm sure Pradip and Ching were happy for the poverty wage jobs they got.  

Now, they are just reduced to screaming "Mine, mine, mine, mine, mine!!!"


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 3, 2015)

BlueGin said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > BlueGin said:
> ...



Meaning that the sky hasn't fallen, so you don't have any credibility. 

YOu know what my observation of ObamaCare is.  Before ObamaCare, we had that annual company meeting about how our health insurance was going to cost more and provide less, every year.  We even had one year where our Human Resource Cow said, "Im so glad my husband has an HMO and I'm not on our program!" 

Guess what, we don't have those meetings anymore since ObamaCare.


----------



## BlueGin (Jan 3, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> BlueGin said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...


Meaning you have zero knowledge about what is going on in the healthcare industry as a whole ( including in Washington) and just speak out of your ass about stuff you know nothing about and shouldn't be taken seriously.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 3, 2015)

BlueGin said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > BlueGin said:
> ...



Checked outside. Sky still isn't falling.  We did get some nice snow last night.


----------



## BlueGin (Jan 3, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> BlueGin said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...


I love the willfully ignorant when they lose an argument. LOL


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 3, 2015)

BlueGin said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > BlueGin said:
> ...



i love when panic-mongers sputter in frustration when they can't get people to get as upset as they are. 

ObamaCare is going to be just fine.  Single Payer would be better.


----------



## BlueGin (Jan 3, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> BlueGin said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...


Who is upset? I have great insurance and am not forced to rely on The crappy Obamacare bait and switch policies others do. I just feel sorry for the people Obamacare dupes that are (mostly the struggling middle class).


----------



## Conservative65 (Jan 3, 2015)

Vandalshandle said:


> BlueGin said:
> 
> 
> > Vandalshandle said:
> ...


what


JoeB131 said:


> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> > Single payer would be just another social welfare program designed to give all the same despite some paying more into it.
> ...



I thought people like you wanted equal.  I guess that means results not responsibilities.  

I'm not horrified that the rich pay MORE in taxes.  What bothers me is that those who pay zero in income taxes demand those already paying pay more while they continue to pay none.  Hate to break it to you but if you have a family income of $47,000 for a family of four and you pay zero income taxes, that's not a fair share.  

If I earned it, it is MINE, MINE, MINE.  Your problem is you think those that didn't earn it are OK is doing the same with money that isn't theirs.  I don't give a shit what their situation is.  If it isn't to your liking, you support them.  MY money is for MY family.


----------



## Conservative65 (Jan 3, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> BlueGin said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...


Just another example of entitlement minded pieces of shit getting something else handed to them funded by those of us that can actually keep a job.


----------



## Jroc (Jan 3, 2015)

Care4all said:


> Spare_change said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...


A family making $75,000 per year should easily be  able to afford their own health insurance. Obamacare does not make insurance more affordable. The sooner you admit that the sooner you'll be living in reality  

Liar...


----------



## Conservative65 (Jan 3, 2015)

Care4all said:


> Spare_change said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...



Too proud my ass.  They aren't too proud to take food stamps, welfare, WIC, and live in government housing.  

Subsidies to one for healthcare no matter what they make is wrong.  It means someone else is having more taken from them.  Medicaid is the same thing.  My former doctor started taking Medicaid patients.  Last time I saw him, I had just paid my $30 copay and would get a bill for what my insurance didn't cover.  A woman and her child came in.  When she was asked to pay whatever the copay was for Medicaid, somewhere around $3, she raised hell about that.  I doubt she got a bill later either.


----------



## Conservative65 (Jan 3, 2015)

Care4all said:


> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...



Do they pay the taxes that fund the subsidy they get.  Paying property taxes doesn't count.  Paying sales taxes doesn't count.  That's like saying a welfare and food stamp recipient pays the taxes that fund both of them and we both know better.


----------



## BlueGin (Jan 3, 2015)

Conservative65 said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > BlueGin said:
> ...


And please note


Conservative65 said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > BlueGin said:
> ...



Some people will settle for sub par crap as long as it is free. Just wait until the day they get shafted due to deductibles,lack of participating doctors or fines they didn't see coming. : )


----------



## Conservative65 (Jan 3, 2015)

BlueGin said:


> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...



The sad part is they'll run to the government to get a subsidy to fund that.


----------



## Care4all (Jan 3, 2015)

Jroc said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > Spare_change said:
> ...


Tell that to Mr. H who gave the example of making 85k, family of 3, and not being able to afford the cost of Health care Insurance....  it truly depends on where you live and what the cost of living is there.....

As I also mentioned earlier, On the Independent Insurance market, for a decent Health care plan that covered 80%/20% with a lower deductible, was just astronomical in price, about $12,500 a year, per PERSON here in Maine...and that is just ridiculous when the average family in Maine, combine income, is in the 40's...each state is different, but my State area, way up here in nowhere land,  doesn't attract a lot of Doctors or Dentists....easier to be in a populated area to make their bucks.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 3, 2015)

BlueGin said:


> Who is upset? I have great insurance and am not forced to rely on The crappy Obamacare bait and switch policies others do. I just feel sorry for the people Obamacare dupes that are (mostly the struggling middle class).



Yes, and that's the point. Most people I know didn't have their insurance changed one bit, either.  But here you are every day like chicken little screaming how the sky is falling. 

I do know one person who got new insurance through ObamaCare, and she says it's an improvement over what she had before.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 3, 2015)

Conservative65 said:


> The sad part is they'll run to the government to get a subsidy to fund that.



and that would be bad, why?  

Look, you guys want to maintain the current system of private insurance.  There's no good reason for it, it adds nothing to the quality of care and makes our system more expensive -  18% of GDP compared to 8-11% of GDP for other industrialized nations.  

It also makes us less competitive in the workplace in that employers have to add the cost of that health care onto every product they make while their German and Japanese counterparts just pay their tax and can produce cheaper products.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 3, 2015)

Conservative65 said:


> Too proud my ass. They aren't too proud to take food stamps, welfare, WIC, and live in government housing.



Yes, those poor people. HOW DARE they insist on continuing to live. 



Conservative65 said:


> Subsidies to one for healthcare no matter what they make is wrong. It means someone else is having more taken from them. Medicaid is the same thing. My former doctor started taking Medicaid patients. Last time I saw him, I had just paid my $30 copay and would get a bill for what my insurance didn't cover. A woman and her child came in. When she was asked to pay whatever the copay was for Medicaid, somewhere around $3, she raised hell about that. I doubt she got a bill later either.



I got to wonder what kind of fucked up you are that you begrudge a poor woman $3.00.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 3, 2015)

BlueGin said:


> Some people will settle for sub par crap as long as it is free. Just wait until the day they get shafted due to deductibles,lack of participating doctors or fines they didn't see coming. : )



Well, no, here's the problem.  I have private insurance now.  I have private insurance on my last job, and because I am getting up there in years, on the last job I took the more expensive Point of Service Plan instead of the HMO.  (I referred to these as Piece of Shit and Horrible Medical Options, because neither one of them were great.)

Well, in 2007, I ran up a lot of medical issues.  Required two operations, ran up something like $60,000 in medical claims.  But heck, I had insurance!   And even though I ended up paying something like $15,000 out of pocket, it was a good thing I had insurance.  

Oh, no. Wait.  After I made claims, they were suddenly very keen on getting me off the payroll, despite six years of glowing reviews.


----------



## Jroc (Jan 3, 2015)

Care4all said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...


Bullshit.. I How'd i get better than that for under $200 a month Maine has a problem then.  ive never heard of such a thing it certainly isnt the norm, if even true. which i don't believe. Try competition across state lines, not blowing up the entire healthcare system


----------



## Jroc (Jan 3, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> > The sad part is they'll run to the government to get a subsidy to fund that.
> ...



Chamber of Commerce talking points. Who knew you were a fan


----------



## Jroc (Jan 3, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> BlueGin said:
> 
> 
> > Some people will settle for sub par crap as long as it is free. Just wait until the day they get shafted due to deductibles,lack of participating doctors or fines they didn't see coming. : )
> ...


Nothing wrong with HMOs actually. I had a choice between those or PPO both good. Government control doesn't bring down the cost of anything. Maybe you can list some examples of where that has actually happened. I'm also not quit sure how late 40s would be considered "up there in age"


----------



## BlueGin (Jan 3, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> BlueGin said:
> 
> 
> > Some people will settle for sub par crap as long as it is free. Just wait until the day they get shafted due to deductibles,lack of participating doctors or fines they didn't see coming. : )
> ...


Like I said. Still happening under the ACA. People who can't afford the premium coverage are signing up for the cheaper coverage that they can afford only to find out they can't meet the deductibles and are turning around and dropping the insurance.

And now in 2015 those same folks will be fined by the IRS for lack of insurance.


So spare me the drama.


----------



## BlueGin (Jan 3, 2015)

Jroc said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > Jroc said:
> ...


It's not. I pay about 400.00 a month for three dependants.


----------



## Papageorgio (Jan 3, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> > The sad part is they'll run to the government to get a subsidy to fund that.
> ...



If they are paying it in taxes, they are raising their prices to cover the tax. So there is no competitive advantage. If I'm spending 10% on health care whether through taxes or through direct pay, the cost is still the same. It's just charged differently, except if the corporation is paying the health care they can take a tax deduction, if they pay it through taxes, there is no deduction. 

It's a wash.


----------



## william the wie (Jan 3, 2015)

Obamacare is going to cost the Ds a lot more seats in 2016 and unless the Rs go with cross-state competition the Ds will ride a wave in 2018.


----------



## Conservative65 (Jan 3, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> > Too proud my ass. They aren't too proud to take food stamps, welfare, WIC, and live in government housing.
> ...



I have to wonder just how bad of a bleeding heart you are to think that she can pay nothing and get to see the same doctor that costs me copays, deductibles, etc.  I begrudge anyone that thinks someone owes them something.


----------



## Conservative65 (Jan 3, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> > The sad part is they'll run to the government to get a subsidy to fund that.
> ...



Because someone else besides them is being forced to pay for it on their sorry behalf.  You may not see being forced to support someone that thinks you owe it to them as bad but I do.  Since you don't have a problem with it, pay my portion.  We'll see just how much you really care or whether or not you are the typical do nothing, good intention bleeding heart.


----------



## Conservative65 (Jan 3, 2015)

Care4all said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...



I'll tell Mr. H that he needs to cut spending elsewhere if he can't afford it on $85,000.   Cost of living isn't always based on where you live but HOW you live.

My insurance, which I get through my employer as part of my compensation, costs me ZERO/year.  We have a Health Reimbursement Plan with a $6000 out of pocket max/year and a $3000 deductible.  My employer pays $2250 of the deductible and it's 80/20 after that.  For inpatient, they reimburse for the 20%.  That means for a major surgery, which I had about 3 months ago, it costs me out of pocket $750.  Would hate to see Obamacare and things associated with it drive up the premiums and out of pocket.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 3, 2015)

Jroc said:


> Chamber of Commerce talking points. Who knew you were a fan



Well, when I and the Chamber of Commerce can both see an obvious problem, then it probably really is a problem.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 3, 2015)

Conservative65 said:


> Because someone else besides them is being forced to pay for it on their sorry behalf. You may not see being forced to support someone that thinks you owe it to them as bad but I do. Since you don't have a problem with it, pay my portion. We'll see just how much you really care or whether or not you are the typical do nothing, good intention bleeding heart.



Guy, I know you are a little dense, but here's the thing. 

We are all paying for each other's health care already.  Even if you have private insurance, in any given year, either you are paying for someone else's care, or if that's the year you had issues, someone else is paying for yours. 

The only question is, who can manage that better, greedy insurance companies or the government.  Now, I know you've been brainwashed into thinking "government bad, private sector good", but the reality is, Medicare works really well, Medicaid works reasonably well.  The VA worked pretty well until dumbass Bush dumped a couple hundred thousand new injured vets into the system and then trashed the economy so they couldn't find jobs.  

Fact is, there's plenty of money in the system already.  It's just not being spent smartly.  Frankly, if I had to pay for part of Ed Hanaway's 100 million dollar retirement package as a Cigna policyholder, then you should be happy paying for granny's medicare.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 3, 2015)

Conservative65 said:


> My insurance, which I get through my employer as part of my compensation, costs me ZERO/year. We have a Health Reimbursement Plan with a $6000 out of pocket max/year and a $3000 deductible. My employer pays $2250 of the deductible and it's 80/20 after that. For inpatient, they reimburse for the 20%. That means for a major surgery, which I had about 3 months ago, it costs me out of pocket $750. Would hate to see Obamacare and things associated with it drive up the premiums and out of pocket.



Waaaaaaah.... you expect your employer to pay for your health care?   What kind of liberal parasite are you?  

So if you get cancer next year and your employer decides its cheaper to fire you than to keep paying for your treatments, are you going to be totally cool with that?


----------



## william the wie (Jan 3, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> > Because someone else besides them is being forced to pay for it on their sorry behalf. You may not see being forced to support someone that thinks you owe it to them as bad but I do. Since you don't have a problem with it, pay my portion. We'll see just how much you really care or whether or not you are the typical do nothing, good intention bleeding heart.
> ...


As opposed to your extreme density?  What pert of unsustainable entitlements escapes your "comprehension"?


----------



## Jroc (Jan 3, 2015)

BlueGin said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...




Maybe so, but that's a little over 1/3 of the price this person posted, which would be almost $1,100.00 per month


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 3, 2015)

william the wie said:


> As opposed to your extreme density? What pert of unsustainable entitlements escapes your "comprehension"?



The fact that it isn't "unsustainable".   Every other country has single payer.  Every other country covers all of its citizens and spends less than we do.  While we spend 18% of our GDP, other countries spend 8-11%.


----------



## Conservative65 (Jan 4, 2015)

william the wie said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > Conservative65 said:
> ...


Seems Joe thinks it's his place to tell a private business how to use its money.


----------



## Conservative65 (Jan 4, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> > My insurance, which I get through my employer as part of my compensation, costs me ZERO/year. We have a Health Reimbursement Plan with a $6000 out of pocket max/year and a $3000 deductible. My employer pays $2250 of the deductible and it's 80/20 after that. For inpatient, they reimburse for the 20%. That means for a major surgery, which I had about 3 months ago, it costs me out of pocket $750. Would hate to see Obamacare and things associated with it drive up the premiums and out of pocket.
> ...



They offered it to me.  It's part of the compensation I get.  Only people like you expect it.  

If you had done a good job your employer would have kept you.  They didn't because you sucked old man.


----------



## Conservative65 (Jan 4, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> > Because someone else besides them is being forced to pay for it on their sorry behalf. You may not see being forced to support someone that thinks you owe it to them as bad but I do. Since you don't have a problem with it, pay my portion. We'll see just how much you really care or whether or not you are the typical do nothing, good intention bleeding heart.
> ...



Who the hell are you old man to tell a business how to spend it's money?  Cigna paying him and granny getting Medicare aren't related. 

You can't get past blaming others yet keep kissing the n******s ass.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 4, 2015)

Conservative65 said:


> Seems Joe thinks it's his place to tell a private business how to use its money.



No, I just don't think that health care should be a private business.  We are the only country that does it that way. And it's stupid.


----------



## Conservative65 (Jan 4, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> > Seems Joe thinks it's his place to tell a private business how to use its money.
> ...



Not surprised.  You think the government should do everything.  There are places like that.  Take your old ass to one.  

Seems you base your opinion on healthcare on us being the only one to do it that way.  Is it stupid because it's wrong or because in your pea brain we should conform to what others do?  You're one of those that if it isn't done your way it's wrong.  That sounds like a 5 year old.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 4, 2015)

Conservative65 said:


> Who the hell are you old man to tell a business how to spend it's money? Cigna paying him and granny getting Medicare aren't related.
> 
> You can't get past blaming others yet keep kissing the n******s ass.



Ah, yes, you aren't at all racist.   

Here's the thing. Cigna has a business model. That business model is people pay for insurance, and when they get sick or injured, Cigna is supposed to cover that.  Got it? Good.  

Okay, except what Cigna did under Ed Hanaway's administration was to collect insurance payments, and then find excuses not to pay out.  The most famous one was the case of Nataline Sarkisyan, a young lady who needed a liver transplant, whose father got insurance from Cigna, but Cigna determined the procedure to be "experimental".  Her father sued Cigna, but the courts ruled that since the contract was between his employer and Cigna, he didn't have standing. 

One vice President of Cigna, Wendell Potter, was so disgusted by the whole affair he became an advocate for single payer. 

Morally, it's a simple case.  Cigna routinely cheated its customers, and then paid an asshole a lot of money for it. 

This is like the oppossite of efficient. Lots of money was expended and people died.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 4, 2015)

Conservative65 said:


> Not surprised. You think the government should do everything. There are places like that. Take your old ass to one.
> 
> Seems you base your opinion on healthcare on us being the only one to do it that way. Is it stupid because it's wrong or because in your pea brain we should conform to what others do? You're one of those that if it isn't done your way it's wrong. That sounds like a 5 year old.



After having the bad luck to have been put through the private insurance grinder, I'd like to not only ban private insurance companies but send guys like Hanaway to a Re-education camp for hard labor until they fucking die.  BUt that would be a bit harsh.  

The reason I think it's wrong is we spend more than any other country.  1/4 of our population (before ACA) had either no insurance or inadequate insurance.  We have the highest infant mortality and lowest life expectancy in the Industrialized world.   62% of bankruptcies are linked to medical crisis, and  75% of those people had insurance when the crisis started.  

So if everyone else does it a certain way and have good results, and we do it the stupid way, spend more money and get AWFUL results, that's probably a clue that we are doing it wrong.  At least to reasonable people.


----------



## Conservative65 (Jan 4, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> > Who the hell are you old man to tell a business how to spend it's money? Cigna paying him and granny getting Medicare aren't related.
> ...



I call people what they are.  I believe I given you the same label although you're white trash.  It isn't color but mindset and both of you have it.  By the way, if a black person calls him/herself one, is that racist?

The model includes things for which insurance doesn't cover.  I have life insurance.  Based on what you say, when I die, it's supposed to pay.  However, if my death is at my own hands, they won't.  Got it?  Good.

You have proof they cheated?  Proof isn't some story.  

To use a phrase you bleeding hearts often use, don't dictate my morals.  You don't want me doing it for you.


----------



## Conservative65 (Jan 4, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> > Not surprised. You think the government should do everything. There are places like that. Take your old ass to one.
> ...



I'd say the same about you but don't think it's harsh.  

Where were you bleeding hearts voluntarily showing your compassion you say you have?  Why didn't you good intentioned do nothing bleeding hearts pool your own money and do for them?  That's right, you aren't compassionate except in words then try to force it out of someone else with the mindset that it actually came from your pockets.  It's easy to spend someone else's money.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 4, 2015)

Conservative65 said:


> I call people what they are. I believe I given you the same label although you're white trash. It isn't color but mindset and both of you have it. By the way, if a black person calls him/herself one, is that racist?
> 
> The model includes things for which insurance doesn't cover. I have life insurance. Based on what you say, when I die, it's supposed to pay. However, if my death is at my own hands, they won't. Got it? Good.
> 
> ...



I don't think you have any morals.  You have misogyny and racism and homophobia you dress up as morals. 

the fact the N-word is even in your vocabulary says a lot about you, and none of it good. 

Obviously, Ms. Sarkisyan's case wasn't like the grifter who buys an insurance policy and shoots himself.  Her father took that job with the reasonable expectation that a top notch company would have top notch insurance. (His employer was Lexus, maker of fine cars for Douchebags since 1988). 

The thing is, the insurance companies used redaction and pre-existing conditions and encouraging employers to let go of employees who had a lot of expenses.   And that's the problem. THeir first goal was not to provide health care, it was to create a profit.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 4, 2015)

Conservative65 said:


> Where were you bleeding hearts voluntarily showing your compassion you say you have? Why didn't you good intentioned do nothing bleeding hearts pool your own money and do for them? That's right, you aren't compassionate except in words then try to force it out of someone else with the mindset that it actually came from your pockets. It's easy to spend someone else's money.



We did show our compassion.  We voted to fix the current system so the health insurance companies stopped cheating people.  

And we made rich people pay for it.  Which is even more awesome.


----------



## Conservative65 (Jan 4, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> > I call people what they are. I believe I given you the same label although you're white trash. It isn't color but mindset and both of you have it. By the way, if a black person calls him/herself one, is that racist?
> ...



I don't care what a piece of shit like you thinks.  

I believe people should earn what they get not based on gender, sexual orientation, or race.  You, on the other hand, don't.  

You said you hate Mormons and religion and want to talk to me about morals.  

That you can't afford a Lexus is your problem.  Maybe that's why you have a problem with people that have money.  You don't and never will.  

You have proof that insurance companies encourage employers to let people go?  Saying so doesn't make it so.  Proof please.


----------



## Conservative65 (Jan 4, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> > Where were you bleeding hearts voluntarily showing your compassion you say you have? Why didn't you good intentioned do nothing bleeding hearts pool your own money and do for them? That's right, you aren't compassionate except in words then try to force it out of someone else with the mindset that it actually came from your pockets. It's easy to spend someone else's money.
> ...



Compassion doesn't come from forcing others to pay.  

You didn't make anyone do anything.  You can't even keep a job.  It's not a wonder you hate people with money.  The only way you get it is to have it handed to you.  Keep a job so the rest of us don't have to take care of your old ass.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 4, 2015)

Conservative65 said:


> I don't care what a piece of shit like you thinks.
> 
> I believe people should earn what they get not based on gender, sexual orientation, or race. You, on the other hand, don't.



I believe people should earn a fair living wage, no matter what they do for a living.  You seem to think that employers should cheat them based on gender or race, and then wonder why they turn to government.  

It makes me think you aren't terribly bright.  



Conservative65 said:


> You said you hate Mormons and religion and want to talk to me about morals.



Mormonism is a lie based on the lies of a child-molesting con man.  It deserves contempt beyond what most religions deserve.  Mormonism is Scientology + 150 years. 



Conservative65 said:


> That you can't afford a Lexus is your problem. Maybe that's why you have a problem with people that have money. You don't and never will.



I don't have a problem with someone who buys a Lexus. I have a problem with someone who buys a Lexus and then serves across the road because he's talking on his cell-phone.  



Conservative65 said:


> You have proof that insurance companies encourage employers to let people go? Saying so doesn't make it so. Proof please.



Besides it happening to me personally?  

Wells Fargo facing lawsuit after firing father of dying cancer patient over healthcare costs RT USA

Triage Fired because of medical expenses A Peoria case

Subscription Center ChicagoBusiness.com


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 4, 2015)

Conservative65 said:


> Compassion doesn't come from forcing others to pay.
> 
> You didn't make anyone do anything. You can't even keep a job. It's not a wonder you hate people with money. The only way you get it is to have it handed to you. Keep a job so the rest of us don't have to take care of your old ass.



Boy, man, you sound pretty bitter and angry.  I think you need to get over that. 

It's not the poor who are making your life miserable. It's the rich.


----------



## Conservative65 (Jan 4, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't care what a piece of shit like you thinks.
> ...



The problem is you define fair as paying some people more than the skills are worth to the one doing the paying.  Not your place.  I think people should be paid based on their skills and also think that it's not my place to determine what those skills are worth for a business that's not mine or the one where I work.  

That is your OPINION about Mormonism.  Nothing more.  

Someone buying a Lexus and someone on a phone crossing traffic while on his phone are two different things unless you're going to tell me only those that drive a Lexus do that.  

PROVE your claim.  Saying it happens isn't proof.


----------



## Conservative65 (Jan 4, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> > Compassion doesn't come from forcing others to pay.
> ...



The rich aren't the ones demanding I support them.  The poor are.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Jan 4, 2015)

My brother had an individual catastrophic policy (before the shit) that cost him $170/month w/a 3k or so deductible.  That's gone, his comparable plan (BC) that replaced it was $590/month w/a 6k deductible and that just went up to $675/month. 

Six hundred seventy five dollars PER MONTH.  He's single, no kids, mid-50's.  Someone explain to me how you're ok with this?  You idiots keep saying "oh, but MILLIONS! now have insurance" yet you say NOTHING of those who are getting royally screwed footing the bill.  What about those MILLIONS??  What we had before was 85% insured and happy with it; 15% not insured.  So they upended the entire system, screwing over the 85% for the 15%, when they could have addressed things like pre-exisiting conditions and such on an individual basis without screwing it for the vast majority.  While we're at it, someone explain to me how you believe it's ok for someone with a p/e to pay the same as someone without a p/e.  Who the hell do you think is paying the difference?? because those with p/e's are a higher risk and cost more to insure.  It isn't free, it isn't "government money", we the taxpayer are being jacked out the ass paying for this shit.  So stop with your "millions can now get insurance!" bullshit.  It isn't sustainable, it will collapse, rising premium costs are not being addressed, where the hell is the $2,500 premium savings per family that obutthead promised, huh?  It's all shit.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 4, 2015)

Conservative65 said:


> The problem is you define fair as paying some people more than the skills are worth to the one doing the paying. Not your place. I think people should be paid based on their skills and also think that it's not my place to determine what those skills are worth for a business that's not mine or the one where I work.



NO, i define fair as the person receiving his labor should be paying his way instead of me.  You see, when WalMart pays their employees shit wages, they go looking for medicare and food stamps and section 8 housing the rest of us end up paying for.  



Conservative65 said:


> That is your OPINION about Mormonism. Nothing more.



No, it's pretty much an established fact that there weren't any Hebrews living in pre-columbian America. They've done the archeology and everything.  Joseph Smith lied to fool less smart people into giving them their money and their teenage daughters. 



Conservative65 said:


> Someone buying a Lexus and someone on a phone crossing traffic while on his phone are two different things unless you're going to tell me only those that drive a Lexus do that.



But every time I've seen an asshole do it, it's an asshole in a Lexus. 


Conservative65 said:


> PROVE your claim. Saying it happens isn't proof.



I provided you three links.   CHeck it out.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 4, 2015)

Zoom-boing said:


> My brother had an individual catastrophic policy (before the shit) that cost him $170/month w/a 3k or so deductible. That's gone, his comparable plan (BC) that replaced it was $590/month w/a 6k deductible and that just went up to $675/month.
> 
> Six hundred seventy five dollars PER MONTH. He's single, no kids, mid-50's. Someone explain to me how you're ok with this? You idiots keep saying "oh, but MILLIONS! now have insurance" yet you say NOTHING of those who are getting royally screwed footing the bill. What about those MILLIONS?? What we had before was 85% insured and happy with it; 15% not insured. So they upended the entire system, screwing over the 85% for the 15%, _when they could have addressed things like pre-exisiting conditions and such on an individual basis without screwing it for the vast majority._ While we're at it, someone explain to me how you believe it's ok for someone with a p/e to pay the same as someone without a p/e. Who the hell do you think is paying the difference?? because those with p/e's are a higher risk and cost more to insure. It isn't free, it isn't "government money", we the taxpayer are being jacked out the ass paying for this shit. So stop with your "millions can now get insurance!" bullshit. It isn't sustainable, it will collapse, rising premium costs are not being addressed, where the hell is the $2,500 premium savings per family that obutthead promised, huh? It's all shit.



I would ask what the $170.00 a month policy actually covered, and Im willing to bet it wasn't much.  The reason they charge more now is they CAN'T cheat guys like your brother by claiming pre-existing conditions. 

My insurance is the same as it was when i started. So excuse me if I don't take cover because you say the sky is falling.


----------



## HUGGY (Jan 4, 2015)

Jroc said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> > Jroc said:
> ...



You are an idiot.  THERE WAS NO COMPETITION before Obamacare !!!

BTW You are pretty stupid for a Jew.  Usually they are more intelligent when it comes to matters of money.


----------



## Papageorgio (Jan 4, 2015)

HUGGY said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > HUGGY said:
> ...



Stereotyping Jews? Interesting, who else do you stereotype?


----------



## HUGGY (Jan 4, 2015)

Papageorgio said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> > Jroc said:
> ...



He brought up "being a Jew".  I didn't see what was the relevance to my post on Obamacare but since HE opened the door... 

As far as who and/or what else I stereotype ???? 

Ye Gaaadddss  !!  Neither of us has the time to go over that much ground..


----------



## Conservative65 (Jan 4, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> > The problem is you define fair as paying some people more than the skills are worth to the one doing the paying. Not your place. I think people should be paid based on their skills and also think that it's not my place to determine what those skills are worth for a business that's not mine or the one where I work.
> ...



What you don't get is when someone is getting paid a wage EQUIVALENT to their skill level, it's not shitty.  You bleeding hearts constantly talk about equal, yet when things are equal and you don't like it, you don't have a problem with someone getting more than they are worth.  If the person making a low but equivalent wage can't cut it, they should look in the mirror and see the cause of why they can't.  They are the ones providing shitty skills yet want to be paid a wage more than they are worth.  The rest of us shouldn't be paying for them to live if the reason they can't cut it is THEIR low skill level.  

Who is the they that have done the research?  It is a bunch like you that hate religion and twist anything they can to say it's false?

I drive about 22 miles to work each day.  I see people do all sorts of things and they are driving all sorts of cars including ones with "Obama 2012" stickers on them.  

Three examples out of 325 million people isn't proof.  They are called exceptions.


----------



## Vandalshandle (Jan 4, 2015)

I haven't seen this much gloom and doom predictions in a single place since the Cuban Missile crisis!


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 4, 2015)

Conservative65 said:


> What you don't get is when someone is getting paid a wage EQUIVALENT to their skill level, it's not shitty. You bleeding hearts constantly talk about equal, yet when things are equal and you don't like it, you don't have a problem with someone getting more than they are worth. If the person making a low but equivalent wage can't cut it, they should look in the mirror and see the cause of why they can't. They are the ones providing shitty skills yet want to be paid a wage more than they are worth. The rest of us shouldn't be paying for them to live if the reason they can't cut it is THEIR low skill level.



Uh, no, guy.  People aren't paid what htey are worth on either end of the spectrum.  You have CEO's getting 8-figure packages when their companies fail and the government has to bail them out.  and this is mostly all right with folks like you.  

If you are doing a hard day's work, you should get a fair wage.  That is what the Minimum Wage was all about before it got bastardized. 



Conservative65 said:


> Who is the they that have done the research? It is a bunch like you that hate religion and twist anything they can to say it's false?



Guy, are you really going to get on here and argue the Book Of Mormon is true?  Okay.  Here's the thing by numbers.  You had the Nephite/Lamanite civilization, which was supposedly in North America, but later Mormons modified that to being "somewhere" in America.  There is no evidence that such a civilization existed. No ruins, no coins, no Native American languages that share anything in common with Hebrew, no evidence that any Native American civilization worshipped Yahweh or was even polytheistic. 

Now, here's the thing.  According to Joseph Smith, the Nephite Civilization lasted as long as the Roman Empire, about 1100 years.   We can see signs of the Roman Empire's existence all over Europe, Africa, and the Middle East.  Ruins, coins, name places, and so on.  We have languages that evolved from Latin.  In short, even though the Roman Empire is mentioned in the bible, we know it existed from other sources and methods. 

In fact, every relic claimed to be a Nephite find has proven to be a fake.  



Conservative65 said:


> Three examples out of 325 million people isn't proof. They are called exceptions.



No, it's called proof that this is probably a common practice.  It didn't take me two minutes to find these examples.


----------



## Conservative65 (Jan 4, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> > What you don't get is when someone is getting paid a wage EQUIVALENT to their skill level, it's not shitty. You bleeding hearts constantly talk about equal, yet when things are equal and you don't like it, you don't have a problem with someone getting more than they are worth. If the person making a low but equivalent wage can't cut it, they should look in the mirror and see the cause of why they can't. They are the ones providing shitty skills yet want to be paid a wage more than they are worth. The rest of us shouldn't be paying for them to live if the reason they can't cut it is THEIR low skill level.
> ...



What's right with me is a business that I don't own or run paying it's employees what the BUSINESS thinks they are worth.  

If you skills for doing that job make a wage equivalent to what those skills and job is worth, it's fair.  Not your place to tell a business what it should pay anyone unless you own the business.  Otherwise, fuck off and mind you own business.  Your kind is fond of telling people what is done privately is no one else's business.  Practice it.  

It's not a matter of whether or not it's true.  That's not my argument.  However, if you can vote against someone because you don't like their religious beliefs, someone else voting against someone, including your President, for whatever reason is also fair game.  You can't do something, says it's OK based on what you believe, then chastise someone else for doing the same because they vote a different way than you.  Actually, you can but with zero credibility.  

I can find plenty of examples where black people voted for Obama and the only reason they did so was due to skin color.  Should I take those examples to mean all blacks do because of skin color.  If you can use three examples as proof of your claim, then you should accept three I can provide as the same.  If you don't, you've proven again that your practice double standards.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 4, 2015)

Conservative65 said:


> What's right with me is a business that I don't own or run paying it's employees what the BUSINESS thinks they are worth.
> 
> If you skills for doing that job make a wage equivalent to what those skills and job is worth, it's fair. Not your place to tell a business what it should pay anyone unless you own the business. Otherwise, fuck off and mind you own business. Your kind is fond of telling people what is done privately is no one else's business. Practice it.



Sorry, guy, as long as the rest of us support businesses through infrastructure and taxes and YES, providing the health care for their employees becuase they are too cheap to do it, we have a place telling them how to do business.  That's why we have business laws.  



Conservative65 said:


> It's not a matter of whether or not it's true. That's not my argument. However, if you can vote against someone because you don't like their religious beliefs, someone else voting against someone, including your President, for whatever reason is also fair game. You can't do something, says it's OK based on what you believe, then chastise someone else for doing the same because they vote a different way than you. Actually, you can but with zero credibility.



Actually, I can.  If Mitt Romney read the book of Mormon and came away from it thinking, "Yeah, that shit totally happened", and he really thinks his underwear protects him from Evil and he's going to be a God ruling his own planet, then I can make a practical judgement this guy probably shouldn't be trusted making any big decisions on nukes and shit.



Conservative65 said:


> I can find plenty of examples where black people voted for Obama and the only reason they did so was due to skin color. Should I take those examples to mean all blacks do because of skin color. If you can use three examples as proof of your claim, then you should accept three I can provide as the same. If you don't, you've proven again that your practice double standards.



Guy, again the obsession with race.  

I'm sure there were black folks who voted for Obama because he was black. So what?


----------



## Care4all (Jan 4, 2015)

Conservative65 said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > Conservative65 said:
> ...


Robber Barons....  study your American History....

Is this what you want again?  I vehemently disagree...


----------



## Conservative65 (Jan 4, 2015)

Care4all said:


> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...



Paying someone an equivalent wage for the skills they have, one that should be deciding by the payer not some bleeding heart like you, doesn't make them a robber barron.  What I want is for people like you to STFU about what a business chooses to pay its employees unless your the business owner do the paying.  Don't like what the person makes, start your own business and pay them what you think they should make.  I won't say a word if you're doing the paying.


----------



## Care4all (Jan 4, 2015)

As far as telling large businesses, (small businesses are exempt already) that they must cover health care insurance for their employees...I do not necessarily agree with that....  I'd rather see Universal Health Care for all, and every business and individual citizens contribute towards achieving that, via taxes...


----------



## Conservative65 (Jan 4, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> > What's right with me is a business that I don't own or run paying it's employees what the BUSINESS thinks they are worth.
> ...



Those businesses support infrastructure, too.  You think you have too much say in something you don't.  I guess you really believe what your n****r President said when they didn't build that.  Perhaps that's why you blame your former employer for ridding themselves of an idiot like you.  

So voting solely because of race is OK with you?  Would voting against someone because of that be OK since you voted against Romney based on religion?  Bet you would call that racists and bigoted.


----------



## Conservative65 (Jan 4, 2015)

Care4all said:


> As far as telling large businesses, (small businesses are exempt already) that they must cover health care insurance for their employees...I do not necessarily agree with that....  I'd rather see Universal Health Care for all, and every business and individual citizens contribute towards achieving that, via taxes...



Problem with your idea of Universal Healthcare for all is that you say it would be paid for via taxes by individuals.  What about those not paying the taxes that fund it.  Should they still get it?  If so, then what you believe in is UH for all paid by some.  At least be honest.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 4, 2015)

Conservative65 said:


> Paying someone an equivalent wage for the skills they have, one that should be deciding by the payer not some bleeding heart like you, doesn't make them a robber barron. What I want is for people like you to STFU about what a business chooses to pay its employees unless your the business owner do the paying. Don't like what the person makes, start your own business and pay them what you think they should make. I won't say a word if you're doing the paying.



Actually, businesses long ago forfeited that kind of consideration.  

The thing was, they did pay their workers a fair wage at one time. It was that period in the 1950-1970's when most of the workforce was unionized or got good wages to match what the union guys got.  

And the wealthy couldn't wait to fuck that up.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 4, 2015)

Conservative65 said:


> Problem with your idea of Universal Healthcare for all is that you say it would be paid for via taxes by individuals. What about those not paying the taxes that fund it. Should they still get it? If so, then what you believe in is UH for all paid by some. At least be honest.



It should be paid for by those who can afford to pay, just like those aircraft carriers you are so fond of.


----------



## Care4all (Jan 4, 2015)

Conservative65 said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > As far as telling large businesses, (small businesses are exempt already) that they must cover health care insurance for their employees...I do not necessarily agree with that....  I'd rather see Universal Health Care for all, and every business and individual citizens contribute towards achieving that, via taxes...
> ...


yes, if they make so little that the standard deduction and personal exemption that we all get for the first $10k or so, or first $20k or so that we earn if married, allows them to owe no income tax.

You and I are not paying taxes on the initial amount that we earn in which the standard deductions and personal exemptions cover either.

As far as child tax credits and earned income credits and paying for Medicaid for the poorest, and CHIP for the children without health care programs, and getting health care through Social security disabilty, and reimbursing Hospitals for the Health Care for the indigent gotten through the Emergency Room, etc etc etc....taking those things away from our tax code or killing the programs or revising them should be done....due to now having Universal Health Care....  so ALL of those kind of health care programs that are piece meal now, would and should be eliminated.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 4, 2015)

Conservative65 said:


> Those businesses support infrastructure, too. You think you have too much say in something you don't. I guess you really believe what your n****r President said when they didn't build that. Perhaps that's why you blame your former employer for ridding themselves of an idiot like you.



Well, I blame them for outright lying to me, like the Regional VP who asked me to stay during the transition and promised I would be reassigned new work afterwards.  

but that's neither here nor there.  The reality is, you didn't build that. Businesses exist because we have a system that nurtures them.  We give them shitloads of tax breaks on the promise they'll create jobs, and they still manage to cheat the rest of us. 

We should go back to what we had before Reagan. Tax the fuck out of the rich, pay for infrastructure and if private companies want to compete for workers, they'll have to offer competitive benefits.


----------



## Papageorgio (Jan 4, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> > Those businesses support infrastructure, too. You think you have too much say in something you don't. I guess you really believe what your n****r President said when they didn't build that. Perhaps that's why you blame your former employer for ridding themselves of an idiot like you.
> ...



I thought liberals were about moving ahead and not holding on to the past? 

As far as businesses cheating you, that is all in your mind.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Jan 4, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Zoom-boing said:
> 
> 
> > My brother had an individual catastrophic policy (before the shit) that cost him $170/month w/a 3k or so deductible. That's gone, his comparable plan (BC) that replaced it was $590/month w/a 6k deductible and that just went up to $675/month.
> ...



Figured you come along and say it was a junk policy.  It covered his needs, he used it for hospitalization, it did not cover maternity, mamograms, pediatrics because he doesn't need to be covered for them.  If his needs changed, he would have changed his insurance, he HAD  a choice.  But now he has to pay FOUR TIMES as much because some other slup won't.  As for the p/e's .... you failed to answer my question.  How is it ok for a diabetic to pay the same premium as someone without diabetes?  How the HELL is that fair to those who do not have p/e's??  Why the HELL should I pay more so p/e person gets to pay less?  P/e people SHOULD pay more because they cost more to insure.  ONly in fucked up leftist land where "what's mine is mine and oh, part of yours is mine too" does that make any sense.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 4, 2015)

Papageorgio said:


> I thought liberals were about moving ahead and not holding on to the past?
> 
> As far as businesses cheating you, that is all in your mind.



I am moving ahead.  But I also learned from the past.  

Now here's the thing.  I compare my time at the company to a zombie movie.  The first five years I worked there, I got good reviews, everyone was friends and things were kind of nice.   Then pretty much the recession hit, and much like a Zombie movie, everyone started turning on each other.


----------



## dblack (Jan 4, 2015)

What size jackboots do you wear, Joe?


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 4, 2015)

Zoom-boing said:


> Figured you come along and say it was a junk policy. It covered his needs, he used it for hospitalization, it did not cover maternity, mamograms, pediatrics because he doesn't need to be covered for them.



It's unlikely that his rate went up because of things he'll never use.  More likely, the insurance companies are hedging their bets against the claims he was going to make they were probably planning on cheating him on. 




Zoom-boing said:


> If his needs changed, he would have changed his insurance, he HAD a choice. But now he has to pay FOUR TIMES as much because some other slup won't. As for the p/e's .... you failed to answer my question. How is it ok for a diabetic to pay the same premium as someone without diabetes? How the HELL is that fair to those who do not have p/e's?? Why the HELL should I pay more so p/e person gets to pay less? P/e people SHOULD pay more because they cost more to insure. ONly in fucked up leftist land where "what's mine is mine and oh, part of yours is mine too" does that make any sense.



Actually, if you really wanted to go there, then no one would be able to get insurance.  Why stop at diabetes?  Why not make smokers pay more.  Drinkers.  The overweight?  

You miss the point. It wasn't that the insurance companies were just refusing PE's, it was that htey were doing shit like claiming that acne as a teenager was a PE for the skin cancer you are getting in your 50's.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 4, 2015)

dblack said:


> What size jackboots do you wear, Joe?



10 1/2 Wide.  With a square toe for sticking up the ass of Libertarian Assholes..


----------



## dblack (Jan 4, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > What size jackboots do you wear, Joe?
> ...


Excellent! Those square toes make it easier to trip you up!


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 4, 2015)

dblack said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



Yeah, but you know, here's the thing.  The GOP is going to deep six Rand Paul like they did Ron Paul.  

The party needs to stop playing nice with the Libertards.


----------



## dblack (Jan 4, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...



Agreed. And vice versa.


----------



## Spare_change (Jan 4, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> > Those businesses support infrastructure, too. You think you have too much say in something you don't. I guess you really believe what your n****r President said when they didn't build that. Perhaps that's why you blame your former employer for ridding themselves of an idiot like you.
> ...



Now, we understand where you're coming from .... and it ain't a pretty sight.

You failed ... but you want us to pay for your failure.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 4, 2015)

Spare_change said:


> Now, we understand where you're coming from .... and it ain't a pretty sight.
> 
> You failed ... but you want us to pay for your failure.



I do pretty well, actually, given that there's been a 30 year war by the rich to demolish the middle class in this country.


----------



## Conservative65 (Jan 4, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Spare_change said:
> 
> 
> > Now, we understand where you're coming from .... and it ain't a pretty sight.
> ...


Says the one that can't keep a job.


----------



## Conservative65 (Jan 4, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> > Those businesses support infrastructure, too. You think you have too much say in something you don't. I guess you really believe what your n****r President said when they didn't build that. Perhaps that's why you blame your former employer for ridding themselves of an idiot like you.
> ...



Things change.  Sort of like "If you like . . " well you know the rest.  

That's the pat answer for you Liberals.  Tax the other guy you think has too much.  

If a private company pays someone with $7.25/hour skills $7.25/hour that's competitive if that's all they're worth wherever they go.


----------



## Conservative65 (Jan 4, 2015)

Care4all said:


> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...



Then you're entire claim about individual citizens contributing toward the goal of healthcare for all really means only certain ones of us not all of us.  If it's universal, then the entire citizenry should pay regardless of income.  

Difference between me and the ones not paying due to the initial deductions and exemptions is that I still have to pay while the don't and many of them actually get more than they may have put in through the EIC.  That's bullshit.  It's one thing to get back all you put in.  It's another to get back more than you put in that someone like me has to pay.  I don't owe anyone a damn thing.  

Bullshit on your claim that they would be eliminated.  Currently, low income children get free lunch and breakfast as the schools in the District that I fund.  Many of them receive food stamps which is calculated on 1095 meals/year or 3 meal/day x 365 days/year.  Since they are already getting one handout funded by taxes they don't pay, it's redundant to provide them something funded by other taxes they don't pay when that need is already being met.  When is the amount for food stamps going to be reduced on an equivalent to the number of meals they get through another handout program.  That's 360 meals/year (180 school days x 2 meal/school day.  

When has any social welfare leech handout program ever gone away?


----------



## Conservative65 (Jan 4, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> > Paying someone an equivalent wage for the skills they have, one that should be deciding by the payer not some bleeding heart like you, doesn't make them a robber barron. What I want is for people like you to STFU about what a business chooses to pay its employees unless your the business owner do the paying. Don't like what the person makes, start your own business and pay them what you think they should make. I won't say a word if you're doing the paying.
> ...



Unions, huh?  Anyone that relies on a union to do his/her bidding isn't worth hiring.  Never worked for one and do quite well.  

Private businesses haven't forfeited the right to make those decisions except to idiots like you that don't understand it's not your money or place to tell them how much they should pay.


----------



## Conservative65 (Jan 4, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> > Problem with your idea of Universal Healthcare for all is that you say it would be paid for via taxes by individuals. What about those not paying the taxes that fund it. Should they still get it? If so, then what you believe in is UH for all paid by some. At least be honest.
> ...



Then those that don't can do without unless you're going to pay their costs.  Poor don't pay for aircraft carriers fool.  Income taxes they don't pay fund them.

Do you realize that a family of four doesn't pay a dime in income taxes until their gross income is $47,000?  I can prove it, too.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Jan 4, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> It's unlikely that his rate went up because of things he'll never use.  More likely, the insurance companies are hedging their bets against the claims he was going to make they were probably planning on cheating him on.



You dumb shit, his rates went up (just like most everyone elses) to a) cover shit he doesn't need and b) cover others so they don't have to pay as much.  Just what the hell do you think a subsidy is? 



JoeB131 said:


> Actually, if you really wanted to go there, then no one would be able to get insurance.  Why stop at diabetes?  Why not make smokers pay more.  Drinkers.  The overweight?
> 
> You miss the point. It wasn't that the insurance companies were just refusing PE's, it was that htey were doing shit like claiming that acne as a teenager was a PE for the skin cancer you are getting in your 50's.



Smokers SHOULD pay more, they are a higher risk for developing diseases from smoking.  Fat people SHOULD pay more, they are a higher risk of developing all types of diseases from being fat.  Don't know what part of that you don't get.  Smokers pay more for life insurance; according to the way this asinine law is written they shouldn't have to.  

STILL haven't answered my question.  Why should someone with a p/e pay the same as someone without a p/e when those with p/e's cost more to insure because they are a higher risk?  Stop tap dancing around and explain _that_ to me, Joe.


----------



## Vandalshandle (Jan 4, 2015)

I miss the old days. I used to be the Director of Underwriting for a major HMO. I was the one that set the rates at the annual renewal. I pulled all the experience for the previous 10 months, and looked for anything that was going to turn into a catastrophic claim. For example, a person on a heart/lung transplant list was valued at about 1 1/2 million dollars. I would add that to last year's claims, say, $250,000, divided by the reciprocal of the inflation rate, say, 4%. Then, I would add our tax, expenses, profit, and divide by the reciprocal of that, say, 20%. So, assuming that the claims were as expected for the last 10 months, the formula would go like this. ((($250,000/.96)/ .80)+ $1,500,000)/$260,400 {last years premium)= needed rate increase 700%. Then, We would deliver the 700% rate increase, and watch will glee as they moved to another insurance company (if they could find one that would take them), knowing all the while that we were not going to be on the hook for the 1 1/2 million dollar heart/lung transplant.

Of course, that wasn't my only criteria for rate increases. I once delivered a 300% rate increase to a truck stop with 20 employees because they sold me tires for my car, and then refused to honor the warrantee.


----------



## william the wie (Jan 4, 2015)

The  US subsidizes wealthy countries  on drug prices, which Obamacare does not address. The US also subsidizes the Defense budgets of other countries. More than all of the cost differences Joe identified are accounted for with those two accounts so why all of the extraneous BS?


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 4, 2015)

Conservative65 said:


> Says the one that can't keep a job.



Individual jobs are unimportant. Companies I've worked for have completely gone under after I left them, I'm still here.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 4, 2015)

Conservative65 said:


> Then those that don't can do without unless you're going to pay their costs. Poor don't pay for aircraft carriers fool. Income taxes they don't pay fund them.



Actually, the poor do pay for it... As a WISE Republican once said... 

*Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron. * 
   - President Dwight D. Eisenhower

How did we get from wisdom like that to an evil, racist asshole like you?


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 4, 2015)

Zoom-boing said:


> You dumb shit, his rates went up (just like most everyone elses) to a) cover shit he doesn't need and b) cover others so they don't have to pay as much. Just what the hell do you think a subsidy is?



Uh, guy, that has nothing to do with his insurance.  I'm sure we aren't getting the whole story here. 



Zoom-boing said:


> STILL haven't answered my question. Why should someone with a p/e pay the same as someone without a p/e when those with p/e's cost more to insure because they are a higher risk? Stop tap dancing around and explain _that_ to me, Joe.



I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were a congenital retard who was incapable of reading. 

Health care should be a public service, available to everyone, irregardless of their lifestyle or their ability to pay. Just like fire protection or police protection or any other public service. 

Which is EXACTLY how every other country in the world does it.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 4, 2015)

Conservative65 said:


> Unions, huh? Anyone that relies on a union to do his/her bidding isn't worth hiring. Never worked for one and do quite well.



so you keep telling us, Cleetus.  You have the benefits you have because a union guy got out there on a picket line and put his life on the line to get it for you.  



Conservative65 said:


> Private businesses haven't forfeited the right to make those decisions except to idiots like you that don't understand it's not your money or place to tell them how much they should pay.



Private Businesses forfeited that when they didn't stand up for America in 2008 and instead looked to how they could use this recession as an oppurtunity to screw working folks.  

Well, the thing is, the working folks can screw back. Much harder.


----------



## HenryBHough (Jan 4, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Individual jobs are unimportant. Companies I've worked for have completely gone under after I left them, I'm still here.



Did it require a special sort of education to push them over the edge so easily?


----------



## william the wie (Jan 4, 2015)

HenryBHough said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > Individual jobs are unimportant. Companies I've worked for have completely gone under after I left them, I'm still here.
> ...


No, just having Joe on the payroll  should do it. With social media search for high paying jobs I think we may be witnessing an online career suicide in progress.


----------



## Jroc (Jan 4, 2015)

HUGGY said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > HUGGY said:
> ...


There was some competition and it could have been opened up to increase competition even further. I've bought my insurance on competitive priced insurance websites for years


----------



## Jroc (Jan 4, 2015)

HUGGY said:


> Papageorgio said:
> 
> 
> > HUGGY said:
> ...



Whats was that again? your quote in response to mine




> *Why don't you Christian Fascists just go ahead on with your end of times rapture bullshit and leave the good Americans the hell alone?*


----------



## Jroc (Jan 4, 2015)

Care4all said:


> As far as telling large businesses, (small businesses are exempt already) that they must cover health care insurance for their employees...I do not necessarily agree with that....  I'd rather see Universal Health Care for all, and every business and individual citizens contribute towards achieving that, via taxes...


Costs have went up for small business... Too amny of big business got waivers


----------



## Jroc (Jan 4, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> > Those businesses support infrastructure, too. You think you have too much say in something you don't. I guess you really believe what your n****r President said when they didn't build that. Perhaps that's why you blame your former employer for ridding themselves of an idiot like you.
> ...


Shut the fuck you idiot. Big government inhibits small business, it doesn't "nurture' anything. Crony capitalism helps big business not small business


----------



## Jroc (Jan 4, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Spare_change said:
> 
> 
> > Now, we understand where you're coming from .... and it ain't a pretty sight.
> ...


Obama is the one destroying the"middle class" the rich are doing fine under your boy


----------



## william the wie (Jan 4, 2015)

Jroc said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> > Papageorgio said:
> ...





Jroc said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> > Papageorgio said:
> ...


D stands for dumber as well as Democrat so give it up.


----------



## Care4all (Jan 4, 2015)

Jroc said:


> BlueGin said:
> 
> 
> > Jroc said:
> ...


I'm assuming she is getting her insurance through her employer, and her share of the cost is $400 for the discount Group Policy and her employer is footing the bill for the majority of the cost?

Individual policies do not get discounted as larger Group policies that employers are able to purchase.


----------



## Jroc (Jan 4, 2015)

Care4all said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > BlueGin said:
> ...


Wrong....Formally you could join some group or organization for a small membership fee and get group rates


----------



## HUGGY (Jan 4, 2015)

william the wie said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > HUGGY said:
> ...



Nothing dumber than a USMB member that thinks I'm a democrat.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Jan 4, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Zoom-boing said:
> 
> 
> > You dumb shit, his rates went up (just like most everyone elses) to a) cover shit he doesn't need and b) cover others so they don't have to pay as much. Just what the hell do you think a subsidy is?
> ...



Just as I figured, dodgeball.


----------



## MaryL (Jan 4, 2015)

You people that voted for Obama,  you must realize  by now what  fools  you were, right?  Obama should never never  never never  never ever  have been elected, and this dill weed is really  hurting allot of us  Americans, not  helping US . Even Bush Jr. wasn't didn't do this much harm. And, Presidents aren't about how much harm they to do to us. Man, they  are supposed represent US. And Protect Us, not allow slow harm to over whelm  us...  Not manipulate and hurt us. I don't remember his name.... For a moment, I couldn't even remember Obama's name. President JERK.


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## HUGGY (Jan 4, 2015)

MaryL said:


> You people that voted for Obama,  you must realize  by now what  fools  you were, right?  Obama should never never  never never  never ever  have been elected, and this dill weed is really  hurting allot of us  Americans, not  helping US . Even Bush Jr. wasn't didn't do this much harm. And, Presidents aren't about how much harm they to do to us. Man, they  are supposed represent US. And Protect Us, not allow slow harm to over whelm  us...  Not manipulate and hurt us. I don't remember his name.... For a moment, I couldn't even remember Obama's name. President JERK.



Who were they SUPPOZED to vote for...That Morman??  Or have that bat shit crazy Sara a senile old fuckers last breath a heartbeat away from the White House?

Is it the Dem's fault that the republicans don't take the election of a president seriously?


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## william the wie (Jan 4, 2015)

MaryL said:


> You people that voted for Obama,  you must realize  by now what  fools  you were, right?  Obama should never never  never never  never ever  have been elected, and this dill weed is really  hurting allot of us  Americans, not  helping US . Even Bush Jr. wasn't didn't do this much harm. And, Presidents aren't about how much harm they to do to us. Man, they  are supposed represent US. And Protect Us, not allow slow harm to over whelm  us...  Not manipulate and hurt us. I don't remember his name.... For a moment, I couldn't even remember Obama's name. President JERK.


Obama voters are too stupid to A) realize they are Ds and B) Not to rat themselves out see above post.


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## MaryL (Jan 4, 2015)

Nobody seems to take American politics seriously any more, it's just a game. It is disgusting, in a word. Who cares?


----------



## Spare_change (Jan 4, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Spare_change said:
> 
> 
> > Now, we understand where you're coming from .... and it ain't a pretty sight.
> ...



If you're looking for an excuse, that's as good as any ... if you're looking for the reason, look in the mirror.


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## Care4all (Jan 4, 2015)

Zoom-boing said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > Zoom-boing said:
> ...


Health Insurance will never be Ala carte, their business model relies on healthy people paying for those who do become sick or in an accident...thus the larger the group of people on a group policy, the cheaper the employer can get the policy for...

However, smokers do pay more on most policies now a days, and they do pay more on the exchange, depending on what State they live in.  There are some States that do not allow Insurance companies to charge more for Smokers, but I believe most States do... for smoking.  But if heart disease runs in your family, or breast cancer runs in your family or diabetes runs in your family, you are not charged more for that higher risk that you have than the other people in the same group policy.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now back to your brother, I hate seeing what he is going through...I did a little bit of googling, and from what I gathered, Hospitalization/catastrophic plans are still available to buy out there in the market place....

Maybe your brother could buy one of these much cheaper Hospitalization plans, AND pay the penalty to the ACA, and still come out a couple hundred dollars cheaper each month, than the 3 times amount he is having to pay with an ACA compliant plan?


----------



## Care4all (Jan 4, 2015)

Jroc said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > Jroc said:
> ...


Well, that would have been good to know when we moved here 6 years ago and I applied for a plan as an individual, on the internet, on Anthem Blue Cross Blue Shield's site for my State....  I wrote about it and the cost of it here on this site, several years ago...I believe before the ACA was even passed, but while it was being debated in Congress....If memory serves me, American Horse was part of the conversation, and looked up how screwy Maine's Insurance Commission was with some of their regs, that he said made Maine's insurance market one of the worst in the Nation.

We have very little competition because most insurers will not operate in my State, with my State's rules.

Before the ACA, only 2 insurance companies provided over 90% of the health Insurance policies in the State.  No competition and a duopoly.

there were only 2 Insurance companies that went on the exchange last year, and now 3 this year, which is a huge percentage increase, although it is only an increase of 1.

When you look at Florida as an example, (which is where my parents reside), there are 14 Insurance companies offering plans on the Exchange.


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## JoeB131 (Jan 5, 2015)

william the wie said:


> HenryBHough said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...



well, if they knew who I was, yeah.  Not that I haven't said anything about prior employers here i haven't said openly.


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## JoeB131 (Jan 5, 2015)

Jroc said:


> Shut the fuck you idiot. Big government inhibits small business, it doesn't "nurture' anything. Crony capitalism helps big business not small business



Yeah, guy, but here's the thing. Nobody gives a fuck about small business.  Of course, small business can't exist without government, either.   But if you think that the people who run your movement care about the small businessman thinking he's a little bit above the peons he pays minimum wage to, you are delusional.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 5, 2015)

HenryBHough said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > Individual jobs are unimportant. Companies I've worked for have completely gone under after I left them, I'm still here.
> ...



No, it just demonstrates that these "geniuses" didn't know much about running their businesses.  

Case in point. First job out of the army, the "geniuses" decided to close down the Chicago warehouse and service all the the chicago clients out of their Milwaukee Warehouse.  Which meant adding 90 minutes onto their route, they were unable to get fast resolution on emergency shipments.  

So within a year of letting us all go, the people who loaned them all that money to buy their big fancy new warehouse foreclosed on them.


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## Jroc (Jan 5, 2015)

Care4all said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...


Simple fix. open up states to more competition...Less crony government, fake capitalism is a good thing is a good thing


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## Jroc (Jan 5, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > Shut the fuck you idiot. Big government inhibits small business, it doesn't "nurture' anything. Crony capitalism helps big business not small business
> ...




Liberty is the movement learn it.... it's not a hard concept even for you


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## JoeB131 (Jan 5, 2015)

Jroc said:


> Simple fix. open up states to more competition...Less crony government, fake capitalism is a good thing is a good thing



why is it that COnservatards never have a solution that doesn't involve the rich being able to make more money.  

Here's why that's kind of a stupid idea.  Some out of state outfit that got licensed in NV but could never be licensed in IL because we actually still protect our consumers here, what's their recourse  if the insurance company cheats them?


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## JoeB131 (Jan 5, 2015)

Jroc said:


> Liberty is the movement learn it.... it's not a hard concept even for you



The problem is, when you guys talk about "Liberty", it usually means the haves fucking over the have-nots or have lesses.  

Pass.


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## william the wie (Jan 5, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > Liberty is the movement learn it.... it's not a hard concept even for you
> ...


we seek evolution in action and I certainly see why you would fear that.


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## JoeB131 (Jan 5, 2015)

william the wie said:


> we seek evolution in action and I certainly see why you would fear that.



No, actually, what you are is a bunch of trained poodles who've been taught how to roll over and give up your birthright when a Koch Brother gives you a command.


----------



## Spare_change (Jan 5, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > Simple fix. open up states to more competition...Less crony government, fake capitalism is a good thing is a good thing
> ...



It's called reality ....


----------



## Care4all (Jan 5, 2015)

Conservative65 said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > Conservative65 said:
> ...


I'm not hung up on the poor not being able to afford healthcare taxes....you cant get blood out of a turnip....  they still need the same medical attention as the rest of us and sorry, I don't support letting them die just because they don't pay one part, of the many taxes that are part of our nation's taxes, the fed income tax...

As far as CHIP, the children's health care program, it would be eliminated, and MEDICAID for the poor, it would be eliminated,  and healthcare for the disabled, it would be eliminated, and Veterans health expenditures also would be eliminated because all of these programs would be incorporated in to the one and only, Universal Healthcare plan....and even Medicare for the elderly and CHAMPUS for the Military could all be eliminated if we all, from birth to death, just had Healthcare universally covered....  think of all the money that could be saved at the bureaucratic levels, that could go towards paying for this thing....


----------



## Conservative65 (Jan 6, 2015)

Care4all said:


> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...



Then they either need to pay what the rest of us pay or people like you voluntarily do it for them.  It's not my place to be forced to fund some bleeding heart social program you believe in and for which there is no Constitutional basis.  I support you, if you see the need as that great, to pay their bills when they can't.  I'm not interested.  

That mindset is what we, where I live, were told if a one cent county-wide addition was added to the sales tax to go to road and bridge improvement.  When we pay property taxes on vehicles, there is a $20 Road Maintenance Fee as part of it.  We were told it would go away if the sales tax addition was passed.  I knew better and voted against it.  Apparently, there were enough idiots that did and passed it.  Just received my annual property tax bill on one of my vehicles.  The $20 fee is still there.  

Just think of all the money people bleeding hearts like you could save the rest of us if you would put YOUR money where your mouth is instead of putting your vote to cause the rest of us to fund your good intentions programs that the intelligent ones of us know won't eliminate others.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 6, 2015)

Conservative65 said:


> Then they either need to pay what the rest of us pay or people like you voluntarily do it for them. It's not my place to be forced to fund some bleeding heart social program you believe in and for which there is no Constitutional basis. I support you, if you see the need as that great, to pay their bills when they can't. I'm not interested.



It's not my place to pay for a bloated military industrial complex, but you guys make me do it anyway. 



Conservative65 said:


> Just think of all the money people bleeding hearts like you could save the rest of us if you would put YOUR money where your mouth is instead of putting your vote to cause the rest of us to fund your good intentions programs that the intelligent ones of us know won't eliminate others.



It would be nice if wealth were fairly distributed, and then maybe people wouldn't vote to redistribute it. 

But as I keep pointing out, we are ALREADY paying for the current system far in excess of what other industrialized nations pay.


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## Mr. H. (Jan 6, 2015)

After careful consideration and much consternation, I decided that I have no choice but to enter the ACA Marketplace and sign up for a subsidized policy. Hear me out...

Subsidies are only available through this Marketplace. Yes, I have an ACA-compliant policy through my current insurer but they just today raised my premium to $921/month. A subsidized policy through the Marketplace (Silver) is just over $600/month. 

The Crux of this Biscuit is that in order to qualify for the reduced premium, I can not claim an Adjusted Gross Income greater than $79,000/year. After crunching the numbers, I believe it's going to be close. I'm in a serious cash-flow crunch and it's not going to get better any time soon. SO, the chance that I am taking here is this - at the end of the year IF my AGI exceeds the $79K threshold, the IRS will bill me for the difference in those two premiums. 

It's a chance I have to take. I can only afford to worry about this a year from now. 

Fuck it all. 

And the thing to remember is this- many of those who were on "Marketplace" policies in 2014 are going to get this very same rude awakening when they file their tax returns. IF they exceeded their AGI thresholds, they are going to get hammered by the IRS. 

You fucking Democrats passed this shit, us right wing kooks didn't. Fuck you too.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 6, 2015)

Guy, if you are making 79K a year, you can afford $7200 a year for health coverage.


----------



## Mr. H. (Jan 6, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Guy, if you are making 79K a year, you can afford $7200 a year for health coverage.


That's what I'm hoping. But without the Marketplace policy, the premiums are over $11K/year. As I said, it's about cash flow and it's not flowing like it was six months ago. And no, $79K/year with a mortgage and a kid in college, etc. does not these days afford me any luxury.


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## Care4all (Jan 6, 2015)

Mr. H. said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > Guy, if you are making 79K a year, you can afford $7200 a year for health coverage.
> ...


Good, do it!

Now let me give you something to be aware of....  That $600 a month is NOT tax deductible as your $920 would be....at least that was my understanding...so put a pencil to it to see if you are truly coming out ahead... or if you have an accountant, ask him....


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## Care4all (Jan 6, 2015)

And another thing Mr.H ....  have you considered buying a Catastrophic/hospitalization plan and paying the penalty for not being ACA compliant?  You could possibly come out ahead...


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## Jroc (Jan 6, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > Simple fix. open up states to more competition...Less crony government, fake capitalism is a good thing is a good thing
> ...




Everybody is out to fuck over poor little Joey I think you're full of shit actually. the federal government doesn't give a shit about you.


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## Jroc (Jan 6, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > Liberty is the movement learn it.... it's not a hard concept even for you
> ...


----------



## Jroc (Jan 6, 2015)

Mr. H. said:


> After careful consideration and much consternation, I decided that I have no choice but to enter the ACA Marketplace and sign up for a subsidized policy. Hear me out...
> 
> Subsidies are only available through this Marketplace. Yes, I have an ACA-compliant policy through my current insurer but they just today raised my premium to $921/month. A subsidized policy through the Marketplace (Silver) is just over $600/month.
> 
> ...




Sorry but it's unlikely you'll get any subsidy with your income...Good luck though. Did your state set up an exchange?


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## Jroc (Jan 6, 2015)

Care4all said:


> And another thing Mr.H ....  have you considered buying a Catastrophic/hospitalization plan and paying the penalty for not being ACA compliant?  You could possibly come out ahead...




Yeah? look at all the bullshit he has to go through now. This Obamacare shit is fucking up the whole system for people who were able to buy their own insurance. Now  look at the kind of bullshit he has to go through, and most likely you can't buy a catastrophic policy anymore, they can't even sell them. not allowed under Obamacare


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## Care4all (Jan 6, 2015)

Jroc said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > And another thing Mr.H ....  have you considered buying a Catastrophic/hospitalization plan and paying the penalty for not being ACA compliant?  You could possibly come out ahead...
> ...


they can sell them, they are not illegal, I looked it up yesterday...you can still buy them....  he would have to pay the penalty for not being ACA compliant, but they are available to buy.


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## Care4all (Jan 6, 2015)

Jroc said:


> Mr. H. said:
> 
> 
> > After careful consideration and much consternation, I decided that I have no choice but to enter the ACA Marketplace and sign up for a subsidized policy. Hear me out...
> ...


  You are wrong on this:
I just looked up my State Exchange, making $79k a year, with a family of 3, and he would be eligible for $457 a month in tax credits (subsidy)



*Silver PPO*
National Provider Network
Plan ID: 33653ME0040001
* Estimated monthly premium *
$632


Number of people covered: 3
Premium before tax credit: $1,089
*Estimated deductible*
$4,000 Estimated family total

*Estimated out-of-pocket maximum*
$13,200 Estimated family total

*Copayments / Coinsurance*

Primary doctor: *$30*
Specialist doctor: *$80*
Emergency room care: *$500*
Generic drugs: *$15*

 Summary of Benefits
 Plan brochure
 Provider directory
 List of covered drugs


----------



## Jroc (Jan 6, 2015)

Care4all said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > Mr. H. said:
> ...




Everybody doesn't live in Maine...Funny people like you are so excited by Obamacare which hasn't even been fully implement yet. Most people don't want it and never wanted it. Most of the politicians didn't even read the damn law. The cost of health insurance is not going down overall, only for the very few. You people who get excited by big government are a joke.


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## Mr. H. (Jan 6, 2015)

Care4all said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > Mr. H. said:
> ...


Thanks, ma'am. 

This is odd, but I logged on to HC dot Gov this morning and the premium is now closer to $300/month for Bronze. 
I called and was told that yes, after the first of the year some premiums were modified. Regarding the $79K threshold, the gal basically said don't sweat it- if an adjustment needs to be made when I file in 2016 the IRS will calculate the portion of premiums I will be docked based on income during the course of the year. Whatever- it is what it is.


----------



## Jroc (Jan 6, 2015)

Mr. H. said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > Jroc said:
> ...




Bronze plan sucks


----------



## Mr. H. (Jan 6, 2015)

Jroc said:


> Mr. H. said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...


I know. But until recently, I was seriously considering dropping myself from the insurance rolls and keeping wife/daughter covered. At my age- not a good idea. We'll weather this shit storm and be back on track in a few years.


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## Jroc (Jan 6, 2015)

Obamacare Bronze Health Insurance Plans


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## dblack (Jan 6, 2015)

Care4all said:


> And another thing Mr.H ....  have you considered buying a Catastrophic/hospitalization plan and paying the penalty for not being ACA compliant?  You could possibly come out ahead...


Or just make sure you won't be getting a refund and tell them to get screwed when they whine about a fine.


----------



## Care4all (Jan 6, 2015)

Jroc said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > Jroc said:
> ...


It's not a matter of being excited about it....

Mr.H has been in absolute worry about this for a year now...it was tearing me apart seeing his concerns....I only wanted to help him....for months, but I didn't know some of the facts regarding his family and his income, and did not want to intrude in asking these personal questions,  so I haven't been able to research and see if I could.

He recently mentioned his family situation, which gave me an opportunity to see if I could pull up some info on it....to see if there was help out there, to be found.

That's not being "excited" about it...  my heart and soul felt that he needed help or guidance.


----------



## Care4all (Jan 6, 2015)

Mr. H. said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > Mr. H. said:
> ...


Now remember, outside of doctors visits and annual physicals you will have to pay your deductible before the plan comes in...but as example, if you get really sick and you spend the $6600 max out of pocket for yourself due to this sickness, the Insurance, even a bronze plan, will come in and pay 100% of your medical bills after you have paid the $6600 of your own out of pocket...so the max you will be hit with is the $6600 for any individual family member, and 13k for your whole family if for some odd reason, you are all sick at once or hurt at one....


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## Conservative65 (Jan 6, 2015)

Care4all said:


> Mr. H. said:
> 
> 
> > Jroc said:
> ...


 
If someone couldn't afford the premiums for coverage so that Obamacare was passed to provide it to them, how the hell are they going to pay the $6600 or $13,000?


----------



## Care4all (Jan 6, 2015)

Conservative65 said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > Mr. H. said:
> ...


The poor, if they go with a silver plan, in addition to their premium help, qualify for 'cost sharing reductions'... which reduces the deductibles and out of pocket expenses for them.

google it, so you can understand....


----------



## Conservative65 (Jan 6, 2015)

Care4all said:


> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...


 


Care4all said:


> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...


 
You missed the point of the question.  However, you answer proves that it's still nothing more than another handout program to a bunch of leeches.  If they get subsidies to pay premiums and they get cost sharing reductions, how the hell is it any different than when they didn't have coverage and the rest of us paid for it?  We're still paying just in a different way but the road ends at the same point.  One group if funding something else for another group.


----------



## Care4all (Jan 6, 2015)

Conservative65 said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > Conservative65 said:
> ...


they still are paying a portion of their costs AND if they do get sick and hospitalized, insurance will pay 100% of the costs....  the gvt saves a bundle if they were paying the whole sum before, or the hospital doesn't have to take the LOSS if the gvt didn't pay it.


----------



## Conservative65 (Jan 6, 2015)

Care4all said:


> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...


 
I'm not concerned about the portion they fund.  I'm concerned about the portion someone else, including me, is forced to fund for them. 

The government is saving nothing since the government has no money except what they take from those of us that actually fund it.


----------



## emilynghiem (Jan 6, 2015)

Conservative65 said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > Conservative65 said:
> ...



I'm also concerned about the price of losing liberty.
It can cost more to paint a painting yourself, but that is more valuable.
Anyone can take a print and reproduce it for cheaper, and it isn't worth as much.

This issue of only looking at covering the costs through insurance,
and not considering the value of free choice in itself as necessary for human happiness too
is disturbing!

If you need govt to regulate health care to feel secure, that's great, set it up for yourself and those who agree with that.

But if it makes other people feel insecure, and they'd rather build their own system and not have govt handle it
let other people have equal freedom to handle it that way.

I think this would be constitutional if it were free to opt into. make it work first, prove it is so effective
that people want to buy into it, and there's no issue. Start locally and grow globally.
instead of experimenting at the cost of taxpayers, and giving billions if not trillions to insurance companies in the process.


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## JoeB131 (Jan 6, 2015)

Mr. H. said:


> That's what I'm hoping. But without the Marketplace policy, the premiums are over $11K/year. As I said, it's about cash flow and it's not flowing like it was six months ago. And no, $79K/year with a mortgage and a kid in college, etc. does not these days afford me any luxury.



You know what, I sympathize with your situation and all, but 11K is what most families are paying out these days. Except most of htem never see that money because it is administered by employers.  

Here's the thing, the individual market was where most of the real abuses were, renigging on policies and such because they calculated you didn't have the wherewithal to fight back.  

There were a lot of things that were proposed that would have been better than the current mess.  A public option or a medicare buy in for those over 55.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 6, 2015)

Jroc said:


> Everybody is out to fuck over poor little Joey I think you're full of shit actually. the federal government doesn't give a shit about you.



Actually, the federal government has done fine by me.  Paid for my education, gave me most of my initial start in the army, helped me buy a home.  

Now if we can just get them to stop funding Zionism, we'd be making progress.


----------



## Jroc (Jan 6, 2015)

Conservative65 said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > Conservative65 said:
> ...




87% get subsidies!



> *A whopping 87 per cent of Obamacare customers to get taxpayer-funded subsidies in 2015 – but the Supreme Court could throw out the whole $65 BILLION system*
> 
> *HHS said Tuesday that about seven out of every eight Obamacare enrollees will get government help paying for their medical insurance policies*
> *That number was 80 per cent a year ago*
> ...



87 per cent of Obamacare customers to get taxpayer-funded subsidies in 2015 Daily Mail Online


----------



## Jroc (Jan 6, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > Everybody is out to fuck over poor little Joey I think you're full of shit actually. the federal government doesn't give a shit about you.
> ...


Part of the deal for serving in the military. Most don't have those perks. and politicians don't give a shit about you regardless. Do you think they do?


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## JoeB131 (Jan 7, 2015)

Jroc said:


> Part of the deal for serving in the military. Most don't have those perks. and politicians don't give a shit about you regardless. Do you think they do?



I think they worry if I vote for them or not, yes.


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## emilynghiem (Jan 7, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Jroc said:
> 
> 
> > Part of the deal for serving in the military. Most don't have those perks. and politicians don't give a shit about you regardless. Do you think they do?
> ...



No, they don't have to serve the voters. They only have to serve their party agenda to get elected.

If it quit being a game of which party can outbully the other in election media hype,
then MAYBE we could get back to the idea of solutions by govt actually representing voters, workers and taxpayers.

It has become a game of which media machine through which party can push the buttons.

Even when the Tea Party beats the media and is able to get voters to back another candidate,
they get thrown into the same govt mess run amok.  So to change THAT we need to localize solutions,
invest directly in the reforms we want, and take back control of govt directly. Create the models
ourselves and then demand that both parties and candidates, officials and govt, follow the MODELS we invest in.

That is where we will have equal weight: what we create ourselves, putting our money where our mouths are
by publicizing what we build with our own resources first and foremost.

we are doing it backwards.

We build the plans first, then hand them to the contractors to construct and manage. And if they don't follow the plans we approved, we fire them and get someone else who will.

We don't hire contractors then give them free reign to build whatever they can on whatever budget it takes.
And expect them to be beholden to us just because we hired them. They will vote themselves whatever is convenient.

We've GOT to have a unified plan that we invest in ourselves, and then hire leaders to do the work if they want the jobs.


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## JoeB131 (Jan 7, 2015)

Emily, I'd love to respond to what you said, but I think you need to take your meds first.


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## Political Junky (Jan 8, 2015)

Costs will continue to go up, as they always have, as long as private insurance companies are involved
Medicare for all, single payer, would reduce that.


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## dblack (Jan 8, 2015)

Political Junky said:


> Costs will continue to go up, as they always have, as long as private insurance companies are involved
> Medicare for all, single payer, would reduce that.



Heh.. yeah, you bet!


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## Vandalshandle (Jan 8, 2015)

Political Junky said:


> Costs will continue to go up, as they always have, as long as private insurance companies are involved
> Medicare for all, single payer, would reduce that.



While this is absolutely true, and I support single payer 100%, I would find it difficult to place my money elsewhere than health insurance company stocks, which is, quite frankly, almost like having a license to steal.


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## dblack (Jan 8, 2015)

Vandalshandle said:


> Political Junky said:
> 
> 
> > Costs will continue to go up, as they always have, as long as private insurance companies are involved
> ...



That's more or less the core of ACA, yep.


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## Vandalshandle (Jan 8, 2015)

Well, as long as the Right won't tolerate single payer, "who am I to blow against the wind?" (Paul Simon)


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## dblack (Jan 8, 2015)

Vandalshandle said:


> Well, as long as the Right won't tolerate single payer, "who am I to blow against the wind?" (Paul Simon)



A corporate whore?


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## Vandalshandle (Jan 8, 2015)

dblack said:


> Vandalshandle said:
> 
> 
> > Well, as long as the Right won't tolerate single payer, "who am I to blow against the wind?" (Paul Simon)
> ...



Nope, just a recovering republican. My soul may belong to the democratic party, but if I am anything, I am also pragmatic. Being a republican for 40 years is hard to completely shake off.


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## dblack (Jan 8, 2015)

Vandalshandle said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Vandalshandle said:
> ...



Well, I find it just a bit tiresome to see Democrat congresscritters look us in the eye, corporate cum dribbling down their chins, and say it was all the Republican's fault. Gimme a break. Google LIz Fowler.


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## Vandalshandle (Jan 8, 2015)

I believe in doing well, by doing good. Insuring people who had no access to insurance was doing good. Owning the insurance companies that cover them is doing well. However, if it had been up to me, I would have made it single payer. I could have done just as well by parking my money in pharmaceuticals, where Pfizer is selling us Viagra for over $6 per pill, while you can buy it in Canada for $.72 per pill. Hell, I lived in Vegas back when it was owned by the mob, and even they didn't have the balls for that kind of robbery!


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## Vigilante (Jan 8, 2015)




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## dblack (Jan 8, 2015)

Vandalshandle said:


> I believe in doing well, by doing good. Insuring people who had no access to insurance was doing good. Owning the insurance companies that cover them is doing well.



There's no doubt the owners of insurance companies are "doing well".



> However, if it had been up to me, I would have made it single payer.



If you're a Democrat, it was up to you.


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## Vandalshandle (Jan 8, 2015)

dblack said:


> Vandalshandle said:
> 
> 
> > I believe in doing well, by doing good. Insuring people who had no access to insurance was doing good. Owning the insurance companies that cover them is doing well.
> ...



It is nice to see that you have a sense of humor, black!


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## dblack (Jan 9, 2015)

Vandalshandle said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Vandalshandle said:
> ...



Harrumph.... grumble, grumble....

I do have a chip on my shoulder when it comes to ACA. Nothing gets my hackles up more than business teaming up with government to herd people.


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## JoeB131 (Jan 9, 2015)

dblack said:


> Harrumph.... grumble, grumble....
> 
> I do have a chip on my shoulder when it comes to ACA. Nothing gets my hackles up more than business teaming up with government to herd people.



I'm sure your existential angst shouldn't be the basis of policy.  

Look, there were ways to avoid some of the worst parts, but they would have involved creating a public option to compete with the insurance companies (kind of like the Post Office keeps UPS and FedEx from gouging their customers) or allowing a MediCare buy in for those over 55.


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## dblack (Jan 9, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Harrumph.... grumble, grumble....
> ...


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## JoeB131 (Jan 9, 2015)

Okay, some nut ranting bout evils of government doesn't really constitute an argument.


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## dblack (Jan 9, 2015)

JoeB131 said:


> Okay, some nut ranting bout evils of government doesn't really constitute an argument.



Well, no. It doesn't. But a respected journalist like Bill Moyers presenting a well researched piece on the corrupt relationship between corporate lobbyists and Congress comes a little closer, dontcha think?


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## JoeB131 (Jan 9, 2015)

dblack said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > Okay, some nut ranting bout evils of government doesn't really constitute an argument.
> ...



Meh, not really.  One man's lobbyist is another man's advocate.  

I will admit that the Insurance Companies kept us from getting a public option. But if you want to blame someone, blame ourselves for not challenging these guys.  

In this last election, only 8 of 33 Senate elections were actually in play.  Only 30 of some 435 house seats.   And you wonder why these people pay more attention to lobbyists than voters?


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## oldunclemark (Jan 16, 2015)

Jroc said:


> it never went up this much in one year. Mandated coverage, increasing prices, and we haven't seen anything yet



You're being conned....blame the insurance companay...they raise it because they know you;re too lazy to switch companies...


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## oldunclemark (Jan 16, 2015)

Neil N. Blowme said:


> Poor seniors are the ones who really got screwed by Obamacare.




Yeah..first they had no insurance so they died....Now they live longer and suffer  with the rest of us


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## oldunclemark (Jan 16, 2015)

oldunclemark said:


> Neil N. Blowme said:
> 
> 
> > Poor seniors are the ones who really got screwed by Obamacare.
> ...





dblack said:


> Vandalshandle said:
> 
> 
> > OMG! A loaf of bread is up to $1.99, thanks to Obama!
> ...



Exactly..folks act like rates never went up before. Insurance companies owned you


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## oldunclemark (Jan 16, 2015)

Jroc said:


> it never went up this much in one year. Mandated coverage, increasing prices, and we haven't seen anything yet




Shop around...they know you're too lazy to shop around


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## oldunclemark (Jan 16, 2015)

MaryL said:


> I just paid 44 bucks  for medicine that  used to cost me 50 cents. No kidding. Thanks to Obama.




Obama didn't raise the price//the corporation that pays off the guy you voted for raised your prices..


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## Roadrunner (Jan 16, 2015)

MaryL said:


> I just paid 44 bucks  for medicine that  used to cost me 50 cents. No kidding. Thanks to Obama.


Quit your white bitching!!!!

PPACA is a massive transfer of wealth to the wealth deprived community.

Why do you hate blackfolks?


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## oldunclemark (Jan 16, 2015)

Vandalshandle said:


> OMG! A loaf of bread is up to $1.99, thanks to Obama!




My dog died. Thanks Obama!!


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## oldunclemark (Jan 16, 2015)

Mr. H. said:


> My carrier jacked my premium by $100/month this year as a result of it being amended to ACA compliance.
> 
> Next month, It will go up an additional $150/month. Why? To match the rates of the cheapest healthcare.gov policies.
> 
> ...




Your carrier is playing you.
Shop around.....they know you're too lazy to shop around...


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## Roadrunner (Jan 16, 2015)

Vandalshandle said:


> Neil N. Blowme said:
> 
> 
> > Poor seniors are the ones who really got screwed by Obamacare.
> ...


Medicare seems ok, but my old insurer, now my secondary insurer, is making a lot of errors.

Most of the time the errors are under $100, and to remedy the error requires more than $100 effort on my part, so, they get away with fucking me over.

What seniors need is dental care.

I am 65 and everything still works at at least 90% or better, except the teeth.

Costs a fortune to have them surgically removed in preparation for implants.

I'd probably have to rob a bank to get the damned implants.


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## NLT (Jan 16, 2015)

Jroc said:


> it never went up this much in one year. Mandated coverage, increasing prices, and we haven't seen anything yet


Mine more than doubled last year from $254/month to 598/month, this year it is only going up 3%


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## Roadrunner (Jan 16, 2015)

Neil N. Blowme said:


> C_Clayton_Jones said:
> 
> 
> > "Obamacare sucks!"
> ...


What really pisses me off is the "pre-existing condition" crap.

Why would anyone buy insurance before they were sick, if they can just latch on to insurance when they need it, like a lamprey eel latching on to a trout?


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## Mr. H. (Jan 16, 2015)

oldunclemark said:


> Mr. H. said:
> 
> 
> > My carrier jacked my premium by $100/month this year as a result of it being amended to ACA compliance.
> ...


Here's what I did. From the "no other choice" column...

For a family of three, the magic number for adjusted gross income is $79,000. At or below this number, subsidies are available. I feel that we'll be so close to this number that I decided to chance it and enroll in the "Marketplace". I'm on a Bronze policy administered through my current insurer. The government picks up $660/month of the premium, and I pay $300/month. IF my AGI exceeds $79K, then adjustments will be made in my premium based on when my AGI was calculated to exceed that $79K and I will be billed (taxed) for the difference after I file my 2015 1040 return.


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## emilynghiem (Jan 16, 2015)

Roadrunner said:


> Neil N. Blowme said:
> 
> 
> > Of course millions now have insurance.  They have insurance because Obama stole the money from seniors on medicare and working people who were paying for insurance.  Typical leftist.
> ...



Dear Roadrunner:

If the system had been set up where people paying into the system are investing in loans to expand medical facilities and educational programs to provide lower cost services through public service internships supervised through medical schools, and this money is DEDUCTED from taxes NOT ADDED TO IT,
then maybe people would have INTEREST and motivation in paying into the system.

It was set up backwards, where people have to fear being punished with fines to force it,
since the money is not going into health care, but insurance companies only agreed to it if they
got huge bailouts paid to them for how much this is going to cost.

==========



			
				Obamacare Bailout to the Rescue said:
			
		

> Health insurance CEOs immediately demanded a meeting with Obama, which happened in the White House the day after his Friday announcement. According to health insurance lobbyist emails obtained by the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, Obama agreed that day to increase payments for both the risk corridor and reinsurance programs.
> 
> But some savvy Republicans on Capitol Hill were watching this drama and began to push back. Sen. Marco Rubio (R-FL) even introduced a bill just four days after Obama’s November 15th rule change that would have repealed the risk corridor program entirely. “Washington’s bailout culture must end, and eliminating ObamaCare’s blank check for a bailout of insurance companies is a common sense step to protect taxpayers when ObamaCare fails,” Rubio said in a statement.
> 
> ...



NOTE: I am totally for the collective groups negotiating to set up affordable health care by lowering rates by organizing resources and services more effectively.

But this whole notion of mixing private with public, with MANDATING that citizens pay into it without a choice or say in how the programs work is UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

The way business NORMALLY works, is you set up a school, nonprofit or business
and people try your services by CHOICE, and if they aren't satisfied they can ask for a refund for services not used.

And if your system works so well, it will attract more clients BY CHOICE.

So if you are going to use private systems, then private choice should be respected.

Only if the money is going directly into something the people AGREE to pay for, such as medical education for service providers, or expanding hospitals for vets
can there be mandatory taxation BY REPRESENTATION, not bypassing it with politics.

This program should have been made OPTIONAL and there is nothing wrong with setting up a public option as a choice. But not to MANDATE that people must  use the public option in order to get an exemption when there are other choices for paying for health care that are equally if not more viable and sustainable. We need to fund those other options anyway, such as building more medical facilities and educational programs, so why should those venues be FINED and not an equal choice of funding and investing?


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## rtillx4 (Jan 16, 2015)

friend of mine expects to ,maybe. earn $8500 this coming year. Bronze for her is minimum, $264 a month with possible $6200 out of pocket. That is $1000+ MORE than she expects to earn. What????


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## emilynghiem (Jan 17, 2015)

rtillx4 said:


> friend of mine expects to ,maybe. earn $8500 this coming year. Bronze for her is minimum, $264 a month with possible $6200 out of pocket. That is $1000+ MORE than she expects to earn. What????



I thought if you landed in the poverty bracket you aren't expected to pay as people who make over a certain amount.
That's another reason why this is se en as punitive and discriminatory.

If you make that little isn't it cheaper to pay 1% of your salary as the tax.
Either way it encourages dependence on govt and isn't about rewarding citizens businesses and organizations
for investing in medical development of education, facilities and services. It is backwards by being punitive instead of innovative.

[The reason for this is the liberals se e the Government as representing the will of the people, so when Govt does these things they DO consider that to be the people being in charge democratically. While the conservatives see the consent and control of the people is what is supposed to be running things like health care, not the Govt. So until all the people are united then the Govt policy is divided.  Both groups think they are representing the will of the people, and don't get that the will of the people must include not exclude the other parties to be complete.]


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## rtillx4 (Jan 17, 2015)

emilynghiem said:


> rtillx4 said:
> 
> 
> > friend of mine expects to ,maybe. earn $8500 this coming year. Bronze for her is minimum, $264 a month with possible $6200 out of pocket. That is $1000+ MORE than she expects to earn. What????
> ...


\


She is not required to purchase anything since she is a resident of Tennessee and is not eligible for Medicaid nor any subsidy from FED. No fine, but could be very very expensive with one trip to the emergency room. She wants and need insurance but just can't afford it..Well, I guess she could for a while if she sold the stake in the meager  investment vehicle that caused her denial of coverage in the first place.But that wouldn't last long and then she is worse off.


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## HenryBHough (Jan 19, 2015)

10......9.....8......

Counting down to the magical moment when a few thousand vocal activists discover their Obamacare subsidies are taxable income!


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## Care4all (Jan 19, 2015)

HenryBHough said:


> 10......9.....8......
> 
> Counting down to the magical moment when a few thousand vocal activists discover their Obamacare subsidies are taxable income!


NO!


The subsidy is NOT taxable from what I have read.  What is taxable is the money those on the exchange pay as their portion of the premium...there is no tax deduction for those on the exchange with subsidy, as there is if you get your insurance through your employer, for your portion of the premium.


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## rdean (Jan 19, 2015)

Sometimes, I find it hard to believe that Republicans actually believe their own BS.


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