# Impact Of Illegal Immigration An exaggeration



## WhatTheHell2

IMPACT OF ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION AN EXAGGERATION

That is what Bill Ritter of Colorado told a man on C-Span this morning.  The impact of illegal immigration of our economy is not an exaggeration.

There is a direct impact on our education, health care and legal system. 
When we have 350,000 anchor babies born in our hospitals free of charge each year and it is a direct impact on our health care system, economy and taxpayer.

When we have our schools flooded with anchor babies who my not speak English or fully comprehend the English language and extra school have to be built, that is not being built fast enough to keep up with the increase in students, special teachers have to be hired to give special attention to the children of illegal aliens. Even special schools are constructed especially for them like the Mariposa Academy of Language for children of illegal aliens and the majority of our public schools are as much as 95% Hispanic. 
Most of these children quality for free breakfast and lunch paid for by the taxpayer.
Incarcerations, gang and graffiti units, legal representations and additional law enforcement are a direct impact of illegal immigration on our economy.

*Any impact on our economy is an impact on the taxpayers.*

Since most illegal aliens are low wage earners and unskilled are paying very little in taxes if any and the cost falls on the American taxpayer who is left behind and their children left behind in over crowded schools. Those low skilled and some or not, are taken by illegal aliens who are working for less and bring down wages of American workers. And if I hear once more they are doing jobs Americans will not do like construction, road work, clinic, department stores, Home Depot, hotel, domestic and yard work, I will scream because I know when there were not 12 million illegal aliens in this country Americans were doing these jobs as a fair wage. 12 million illegal aliens are not picking lettuce in the fields. How do 12 million low wage earners send $24 billion back to Mexico each year?

Not to forget about all the Americans who have become victims of the criminal element of illegal immigration. They have killed more Americans than all the recent wars altogether.

Maybe it does not have an impact on people like Bill Ritter, because he does not have to compete with illegal aliens for his job, his neighborhood are not flooded with crime, gangs, drugs and graffiti and his children do not compete for education.

Until Bill Ritter have walked in the shoes of the average hard working American family, he do not have a right to decide or comment on Comprehensive Immigration Reform which is another name for amnesty which will bring in extended family members and elderly parents who have not paid into the system but will be able to benefit from the hard work of American taxpayers.

And lets not forget the most impact on our economy by illegal aliens is when they are sending $24 billion back home to Mexico each year which means $24 billion earned in the country going into Mexico economy and not back into ours and not helping the infrastructure of this country.

5 million illegal aliens who should not have been sold homes, defaulted on their mortgages they did not quality for last year taken advantage of by greedy and corrupt lenders was a direct impact on our failing economy.

Illegal immigration asks too much from the American taxpayers and we are just not willing and able to take on at this time. Enforcement of all of immigration laws is all we are will to settle for and nothing less.

The impact is quite personal for me and many senior citizens who are on limited incomes and who are helping their families to survive. When my son-in-law who is not selling any cars are not bringing home a check and the lot boy who is in this country illegally and does not speak English is still bring home a check each week.

My advice to someone who talks like Bill Ritter is to give more of your taxes to take care of the needs of illegal aliens.
American taxpayers are being left behind the needs of illegal aliens. Comprehensive Immigration Reform will not bring them out of the shadows because they are not in the shadows they are in the midst of all of our lives. In the schools, on the jobs, in our emergency rooms, etc.

Obama is building a case for Comprehensive Immigration Reform as we speak with Napolitano, Richardson, and many others.


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

Governor Ritter thinks this situation is "exaggerated"? I live in Colorado. I don't know what he was responding to specifically, but in general, illegal aliens have made huge impacts on this society and this state and anyone over the age of forty has got to notice the changes. I have to wonder were Bill gets his facts. If anything, the situation is minimized. Politicians better know, damned sure. Not minimize it even more.


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## Ravi

I think it is exaggerated as well but would welcome some credible statistics.


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

There's the truth, then there's "statistics". Ravi. I don't think you want the truth. I'm here to tell ya.  You already seem to have your mind made up.  That  sarcasm and inquisitiveness of yours,  quite a mix.  I live with these "  exaggerations" , and they...are quite real. You should try it. You won't like it. Screw statistics.  Live the dream, sweetheart.


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## sky dancer

Hi Silver--

I used to live in Colorado.  Tell me some stories about what its like for you now.


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## Ravi

SW2SILVERQUASI said:


> There's the truth, then there's "statistics". Ravi. I don't think you want the truth. I'm here to tell ya.  You already seem to have your mind made up.  That  sarcasm and inquisitiveness of yours,  quite a mix.  I live with these "  exaggerations" , and they...are quite real. You should try it. You won't like it. Screw statistics.  Live the dream, sweetheart.


No offense, Squishy, but I've lived with the exaggerations all my life. Feel free to provide some actual truth, otherwise keep whining.


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## RodISHI

Iowa has it's fair share of illegal workers, "Immigration agents arrested 389 employees during a raid in May". Just one plant.


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

Sky?   Why don't you tell me some stories, about how much you have invested in this  and then, I will mock you too? Sound fair? I realy laid it on the line and...you? Nothing. Mockery, and that is it? I think  better of you. Beware of dogma junkies. Jesus.


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## sky dancer

SW2SILVERQUASI said:


> Sky?   Why don't you tell me some stories, about how much you have invested in this  and then, I will mock you too? Sound fair? I realy laid it on the line and...you? Nothing. Mockery, and that is it? I think  better of you. Beware of dogma junkies. Jesus.



I was asking you because I am willing to have my ideas challenged.  I am sincerely interested in your point of view.

If you'd rather not tell me, fine.  I did not ask you these questions to mock you.

Show me where I am mocking you.

I'm not your enemy.  I'm just an opinionated poster.  You may know more about the immigration issue than I do.  I'm willing to come around to your point of view.


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

Sky: I was never your enemy. Stories? Tell me yours, please. What does this  mean to you personally? It must mean something, or  you wouldn't be here.


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## sky dancer

I don't have a personal story about immigration, silver.  I'm just an opinionated Buddhist who thinks we ought to treat all human beings with dignity.

Obviously, my religion informs my politics.  I asked you about your stories because you have indicated you live in an area that is particularly impacted by illegal immigration.

I have the luxury of contemplating ideas like Open Borders, perhaps you don't.

My story is more personal.  I have personally experienced what it's like to fight with neighbors over boundaries and borders and shared resources.  It's hell.  It's war.


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

You are pulling your punches, Sky. I got a bullet or two in my casa  and (shock and amazement) I  have heard real  illegal alien people spout the  same crap you have, makes me wonder .  Word for word. I mean, With my ears,  not on some web site, or FOXNEWS or a poplar college professor spout. It's just a humble fact.  All you people are doing is enabling illegal aliens.   I get bullets . I get bullsh*t. Idealism aside...  what is going on here? You really don't have to deal with these nice people, do you? No, you don't. That is the simplest and easiest answer, YES? You don't and you don't have A BLOODY CLUE what this is about, do you? I am  being nice here, Sky.


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## editec

A good friend of mine has just become involved with a woman who moved here to Maine from New Mexico.  She took a very serious hit in income to make this move.

So, why did she move?

Because in the last year three of her friends had been robbed, one severely beaten, one murdered, because of the crime in that area.

This woman loves Mexicans, (she's an uber-liberal). She loves the Mexican culture and she cares tremendously about the immigrants -- both legal and illegal -- but the crime she is fleeing from was all perpetrated by people who appeared to be Hispanic gangbangers.

I personally find it hard to believe that having ten or twenty million illegal immigrants, most of whom are desperately poor, is NOT going to strain a society's resources, and part of that strain will inevitably come to that society in the form of  crime.

Something needs to be done to stop this flow of illegals into the nation, folks.

This woman is clearly no racist, but she fled New Mexico because of the violent crime which she says is getting worse all the time.

She'd live in New Mexico for over twenty years, so I suspect she knows of what she speaks.


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## sky dancer

SW2SILVERQUASI said:


> You are pulling your punches, Sky. I got a bullet or two in my casa  and (shock and amazement) I  have heard real  illegal alien people spout the  same crap you have, makes me wonder .  Word for word. I mean, With my ears,  not on some web site, or FOXNEWS or a poplar college professor spout. It's just a humble fact.  All you people are doing is enabling illegal aliens.   I get bullets . I get bullsh*t. Idealism aside...  what is going on here? You really don't have to deal with these nice people, do you? No, you don't. That is the simplest and easiest answer, YES? You don't and you don't have A BLOODY CLUE what this is about, do you? I am  being nice here, Sky.



Clearly, you are angry and more interested in being insulting than discussing this issue with someone who has an open mind about it.

I am not enabling illegality in any way.  That's a humble fact.

Who is shooting at you?

If I don't 'have a bloody clue' then why won't you answer my questions about what its like for you there?


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## WhatTheHell2

editec said:


> A good friend of mine has just become involved with a woman who moved here to Maine from New Mexico.  She took a very serious hit in income to make this move.
> 
> *So, why did she move?
> *
> Because in the last year *three of her friends had been robbed, one severely beaten, one murdered,* because of the crime in that area.
> 
> This woman loves Mexicans, (she's an uber-liberal). She loves the Mexican culture and she cares tremendously about the immigrants -- both legal and illegal -- but the crime she is fleeing from was all perpetrated by people who appeared to be *Hispanic gangbangers*.
> 
> I personally find it hard to believe that having ten or twenty million illegal immigrants, most of whom are desperately poor, is NOT going to strain a society's resources, and part of that strain will inevitably come to that society in the form of  crime.
> 
> Something needs to be done to stop this flow of illegals into the nation, folks.
> 
> This woman is clearly no racist, but she *fled New Mexico because of the violent crime *which she says is getting worse all the time.
> 
> She'd live in New Mexico for over twenty years, so I suspect she knows of what she speaks.



Along with illegal immigration comes the drugs, crime and the gangs. We have our share of crime and do not need imported crime. Look at the stastics on how many Americans have been the victims of illegal aliens criminal activity. Here is Reno and Vegas, if not for the illegal alien crime we would not have crime to write about. So lets not go there. I have been a victim of these crimes and they are stealing from employers and doing every sort of illegal busines that are costing us.
There is not an illegal alien family that does not have a member who is not doing something illegal.
*The story your girl friend is telling just do not fly with me so save it.*


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

Ravi said:


> No offense, Squishy, but I've lived with the exaggerations all my life. Feel free to provide some actual truth, otherwise keep whining.


Oh, Ravioli, I thought we had an understanding. I speak  the truth. You are the whiner. First of all, I don't have to prove a bloody thing to you one way or the other. You support these people, "the illegal aliens" the onus is on you to prove YOUR point...You do have one, buried in all that confuse babble, don't you? I don't like getting nasty, so let's be civilized.  I say this once more, I hope it isn't to subtle for you. I live with these people. I am not some well intended dilettante with to much time on  her  hands....


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## Ravi

SW2SILVERQUASI said:


> Oh, Ravioli, I thought we had an understanding. I speak  the truth. You are the whiner. First of all, I don't have to prove a bloody thing to you one way or the other. You support these people, "the illegal aliens" the onus is on you to prove YOUR point...You do have one, buried in all that confuse babble, don't you? I don't like getting nasty, so let's be civilized.  I say this once more, I hope it isn't to subtle for you. I live with these people. I am not some well intended dilettante with to much time on  her  hands....


You want me to prove that I believe the impact is an exaggeration? I cannot prove what I believe and I cannot prove that it is an exaggeration. I just think it is because I've never seen any credible evidence that it is and I've never seen how much money it would cost to keep people from sneaking into the country. You obviously cannot prove it isn't an exaggeration so we are left with a draw. Who are "these" people? I've lived in a community that has had massive influxes of immigrants all my life and until the economy started tanking, IMO, they have had a net benefit...so get off your high horse and put your money where your mouth is or quit crying.


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

Thank you, Ravi. You astonish me. You see what is happening with your own eyes, and that isn't enough proof? " Massive influx of immigrants"...? That these very same people can apply to immigrate legally instead of the alternative.  That they choose not to, that is the problem.  I don't know what else to say. That's the very root of this issue, I am sure you already know. What is it you are seeing that I am missing? I will get of my soap box and listen.


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## Ravi

SW2SILVERQUASI said:


> Thank you, Ravi. You astonish me. You see what is happening with your own eyes, and that isn't enough proof? " Massive influx of immigrants"...? That these very same people can apply to immigrate legally instead of the alternative.  That they choose not to, that is the problem.  I don't know what else to say. That's the very root of this issue, I am sure you already know. What is it you are seeing that I am missing? I will get of my soap box and listen.


mmm? I already told you.

As to your other point, we should expand how many people we allow to immigrate legally. The numbers we allow now are just silly, especially since we are close to zero population growth among legal citizens.


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

Ravi, You told me, I told you...OK, I will be nice. Again, you astonish me.  You are trying to legitimize illegal aliens because of a that "zero birth rate" junk ? Come on now, and you have the chutzpa  to ask me for  "Statistics"? America doesn't owe it to Mexico or any one else  a freebie  immigration  because they CAN"T control their  birth rate, for that mater.  Care to counter?


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## Ravi

SW2SILVERQUASI said:


> Ravi, You told me, I told you...OK, I will be nice. Again, you astonish me.  You are trying to legitimize illegal aliens because of a that "zero birth rate" junk ? Come on now, and you have the chutzpa  to ask me for  "Statistics"? America doesn't owe it to Mexico or any one else  a freebie  immigration  because they CAN"T control their  birth rate, for that mater.  Care to counter?


Oh, they breed like rabbits? wtf?

Squishi...I said nothing of the sort. IMO, their "negative" impact is an exaggeration. I've never seen credible evidence that they cost the US more than they give the US. The closest I ever got was a GAO report that admitted within the report that their figures were based on media reports.

Up until now I honestly don't see an OVERALL negative impact on the entire country. Up until now the economy absorbed them and IMO it would have cost a lot more to deport them and build a bubble around the country. Now that the economy is not doing well, many of them are going home. The market is regulating itself, how funny is that? 

Be my guest. Prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they contribute less than they take and that it would be cost effective to put the country in a bubble.


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

Ravi , Ravi ravi. The Effect these "people" have, well, gosh, it's just great.  Forgive me for  "whining", I have been threatened, harassed , chased, intimidated and whatnot, it's hard to tell what IS positive here anymore.  I HAVE BULLETS IN MY HOUSE. I have had people killed outside my home, by these...JERKS .Fill me in, explain that away ,  make all  that bad stuff  just...magically go away. Yep. Then, I wil feel so much better being told how bad I am for being a victim, and for noticing  your protagonists are not as kind and humane as YOU expect me to be. I forgive you, Ravi, for you know not what THE HELL you are talking about. It shows. How much worse can it get? I don't think you really have dealt with this, because it shows. I think you are EXAGGERATING just how much you know about this whole issue.


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## Ravi

Maybe it is something you're doing, Squishi. Just a thought.

Anywho, hysterical rants on a message board do not make proof.


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## Valerie

Ravi said:


> Up until now I honestly don't see an OVERALL negative impact on the entire country. Up until now the economy absorbed them and IMO it would have cost a lot more to deport them and build a bubble around the country. Now that the economy is not doing well, many of them are going home. The market is regulating itself, how funny is that?
> 
> Be my guest. Prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they contribute less than they take and that it would be cost effective to put the country in a bubble.



But, but, but they're* brown!*And and they talk funny!


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

Ravi said:


> Maybe it is something you're doing, Squishi. Just a thought.
> 
> Anywho, hysterical rants on a message board do not make proof.



Ravi: Is  this the best you can do? You ask questions, then mock the answer? I am being honest, you are just a jerk. You are no better than the people you hate....Me, that's clear  whom YOU hate, you hypocrite.   Best I can call you. You post like, what, 209 post, I think you are posing to an audience. All ego and nowhere to go from there. What is more important, the truth or your little ego?


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

Skydancer: Who is shooting at me? I would like to know. I don't own a firearm. Never have. I am no threat to any honest citizen. I think that might be the problem...This area, it's a f*cking  free for all.  For all of you that DON'T have to deal with this in real life...I envy you.


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## Ravi

I don't hate you, Squishi. I merely would like you to present some facts. You cannot do it, I see.

Also, you just admitted you don't know who is shooting at you but you blame the evil Mexicans. I think you are the one with a hate issue.


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## Epsilon Delta

The US has a health care system??


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## editec

> 5 million illegal aliens who should not have been sold homes, defaulted on their mortgages they did not quality for last year taken advantage of by greedy and corrupt lenders was a direct impact on our failing economy.


 
I'd like to see cthe evidence supporting  this charge

Frankly, I seriously doubt this is true.


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## RodISHI

editec said:


> I'd like to see cthe evidence supporting  this charge
> 
> Frankly, I seriously doubt this is true.


Google search Wells Fargo and Citi lending to illegal aliens. 

Anyone would be hardpressed to get an absolute count on how often this practice is done or how many years it has been going down. It does make perfect since though Wells Fargo is very unscrupulous and they do count every dime they can get into their mitts. Citi has many of the Norwest aka Wells Fargo crew working in their head policy making positions.

For every dollar a bank actually has in it, they can loan ten or visa verse borrow ten. The illegals are a great source of adding to the cash on hand at these banks.

2005 Business week...." Wells Fargo has half a million matrícula accounts, a majority of them ...:


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## Ravi

There was a story on NPR about these loans a couple of weeks ago. I believe the loans are called TIN loans, TIN being tax identification number. Up until now the loans were repaid at a higher rate than loans made to American citizens, so I seriously doubt loans made to immigrants are responsible for the downfall of the economy.

That said, banks should be able to loan money to whoever they wish as long as they are willing to accept the risk and not pass it on to the general public.


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## sky dancer

SW2SILVERQUASI said:


> Skydancer: Who is shooting at me? I would like to know. I don't own a firearm. Never have. I am no threat to any honest citizen. I think that might be the problem...This area, it's a f*cking  free for all.  For all of you that DON'T have to deal with this in real life...I envy you.



silver-

I'm sorry to hear about what its like for you to live in your neighborhood now.  I moved to a safe area, but I once lived in an area with alot of violence and was on the recieving end of vandalism and assault.  I fought it for awhile, it just made me angry.  Eventually, I moved.  I do not regret the decision to move--even though, initially, it felt as though I'd been defeated in war.


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

Skydancer: Thank you. Glad you got away from it. I don't have anywhere else I can move to and the way this economy is going, I may not have a job  or a home  next year.  Things look a little bleak. But, hey, it's darkest before dawn, so they say.


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## Ravi

SW2SILVERQUASI said:


> Skydancer: Thank you. Glad you got away from it. I don't have anywhere else I can move to and the way this economy is going, I may not have a job  or a home  next year.  Things look a little bleak. But, hey, it's darkest before dawn, so they say.


Mexico is pretty cheap I hear.


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## GHook93

Just take CA for example! It is said that if CA stop providing free healthcare, education, welfare and section 8 to illegals then they would have a balance budget! Absolutely amazing! But CA fucked! First they have sanctuary cities, but there is no way around it for the politician. If the politician comes out against it or illegal aliens, the large latino population and bleeding heart dumb ass libs will vote there sorry butts out of office. I personally believe CA is destined to become part of Mexico, same with AZ and NM!


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

Ravi said:


> Mexico is pretty cheap I hear.



Ravi, you certainly know cheap, alright. Cheap shots. Why do you insist on  putting words in my mouth? You seem to relish painting everyone that doesn't agree with you with a really BROAD brush. We all have a voice here. OK, I sound like an obnoxious know- it- all jerk with a chip on my  shoulder, I admit it. You, well you are a perfect human being or what? You are here because...fill in the blank , Be honest, why are you here?  Your are also quite obnoxious and sound like you have something to prove. What is that?


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

Ravi: You made me think about a lot of things here. Truth, proof and statistics and all that. I know just how important being an eyewitness is, I have been involved in the legal system as both a plaintiff and a juror. I am an eyewitness to the changes in the society over the last 25 years. Back then  "Immigration"  wasn't an issue. Well, flash forward, 14 million uninvited illegal migrants, later.  Some of you think that is  an exaggeration?   That is quite an exaggeration, to pretend  THAT is normal.   The area I live in has been inundated with illegal aliens. The Kicker here? I  live four miles from the 
governor's mansion occupied by Governor Bill Ritter.Ya know, " MR. Exageration". Now, he's a native too, and if he hasn't noticed the changes, he's a damned  liar.  I don't have any statistic for you, RAVI to prove my point. Hell,  I can't prove YOU exist  based on the standard, either. But, here you are.  And My testimony stands based on that same standard. Most courts would accept that. I could look up all sorts of statistics,  you would counter with your own sources and then call mine biased or what not,  solving nothing, that's the little game most people like to play here. Well, I just give you my eyewitness testimony.  That is all I got.  You?


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## Ravi

SW2SILVERQUASI said:


> Ravi: You made me think about a lot of things here. Truth, proof and statistics and all that. I know just how important being an eyewitness is, I have been involved in the legal system as both a plaintiff and a juror. I am an eyewitness to the changes in the society over the last 25 years. Back then  "Immigration"  wasn't an issue. Well, flash forward, 14 million uninvited illegal migrants, later.  Some of you think that is  an exaggeration?   That is quite an exaggeration, to pretend  THAT is normal.   The area I live in has been inundated with illegal aliens. The Kicker here? I  live four miles from the
> governor's mansion occupied by Governor Bill Ritter.Ya know, " MR. Exageration". Now, he's a native too, and if he hasn't noticed the changes, he's a damned  liar.  I don't have any statistic for you, RAVI to prove my point. Hell,  I can't prove YOU exist  based on the standard, either. But, here you are.  And My testimony stands based on that same standard. Most courts would accept that. I could look up all sorts of statistics,  you would counter with your own sources and then call mine biased or what not,  solving nothing, that's the little game most people like to play here. Well, I just give you my eyewitness testimony.  That is all I got.  You?



Squishi: I have agreed with your OP dude (Ritter) that the IMPACT of illegal immigration is grossly exaggerated. It is my opinion that it is not possible to tell if the immigrants have had a positive or negative overall impact on the country. I would like to know the truth of the matter. 

For example, it is not credible that 5 million illegal immigrants have defaulted on their loans. I'm not even sure if 5 million illegal immigrants own their own homes in this country. If that is true, the are certainly contributing more to the economy than anyone previously claimed.

That is what I mean by the issue being grossly exaggerated. The fact that more brown people are running around your neighborhood isn't the issue. The impact on the economy is the issue.


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## catzmeow

I don't think we can fully measure the impact, though it appears more negative than positive:



> The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office reviewed 29 reports published over 15 years on the impact of unauthorized immigrants on the budgets of state and local governments. While cautioning that the reports are not a suitable basis for developing an aggregate national effect across all states, they concluded that:[12]
> 
> 
> State and local governments incur costs for providing services to unauthorized immigrants and have limited options for avoiding or minimizing those costs
> The amount that state and local governments spend on services for unauthorized immigrants represents a small percentage of the total amount spent by those governments to provide such services to residents in their jurisdictions
> The tax revenues that unauthorized immigrants generate for state and local governments do not offset the total cost of services provided to those immigrants, although the impact is most likely modest.
> Federal aid programs offer resources to state and local governments that provide services to unauthorized immigrants, but those funds do not fully cover the costs incurred by those governments.



http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/87xx/doc8711/12-6-Immigration.pdf


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## catzmeow

This is what I worry about, though, since I work for a significant amount of time with lower income urban communities:



> Research by George Borjas (Robert W. Scrivner Professor of Economics and Social Policy at Harvard University), Jeffrey Grogger (the Irving Harris Professor in Urban Policy in the Harris School at the University of Chicago), and Gordon H. Hanson (the Director of the Center on Pacific Economies and Professor of Economics at UCSD) *found that a 10-percent immigrant-induced increase in the supply of a particular skill group reduced the black wage by 4.0 percent, lowered the employment rate of black men by 3.5 percentage points, and increased the incarceration rate of blacks by almost one percent. *[28]


Immigration and African-American Employment Opportunities: The Response of Wages, Employment, and Incarceration to Labor Supply Shocks

As long as Americans are still struggling (and they are), I don't really believe we should be allowing illegal immigration to increase their challenges.  These impacts are also felt by native Hispanics, Native Americans, poor whites, and others.  The economic impact of illegal immigration is the greatest on the poorest Americans.


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## editec

WhatTheHell2 said:


> Along with illegal immigration comes the drugs, crime and the gangs. We have our share of crime and do not need imported crime. Look at the stastics on how many Americans have been the victims of illegal aliens criminal activity. Here is Reno and Vegas, if not for the illegal alien crime we would not have crime to write about. So lets not go there. I have been a victim of these crimes and they are stealing from employers and doing every sort of illegal busines that are costing us.
> There is not an illegal alien family that does not have a member who is not doing something illegal.
> *The story your girl friend is telling just do not fly with me so save it.*


 
What the hell, Whathehell?

Perhaps you should reread my post.

Clearly you misconstrued its point.


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## WillowTree

catzmeow said:


> This is what I worry about, though, since I work for a significant amount of time with lower income urban communities:
> 
> 
> Immigration and African-American Employment Opportunities: The Response of Wages, Employment, and Incarceration to Labor Supply Shocks
> 
> As long as Americans are still struggling (and they are), I don't really believe we should be allowing illegal immigration to increase their challenges.  These impacts are also felt by native Hispanics, Native Americans, poor whites, and others.  The economic impact of illegal immigration is the greatest on the poorest Americans.





way too bad and much too late, you've already bought their votes,, now you owe them. don't doublecross them.. that would be just slimey.


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

Ravi: I NEVER said anything about "brown people". That inference was yours. Don't EVER say that again, ever. I am getting  a unflattering  picture of were you are coming from on this issue, and you better think again before you answer my post, you hypocrite.


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## Ravi

SW2SILVERQUASI said:


> Ravi: I NEVER said anything about "brown people". That inference was yours. Don't EVER say that again, ever. I am getting  a unflattering  picture of were you are coming from on this issue, and you better think again before you answer my post, you hypocrite.


mmmkay, Squishi, then tell me who you mean when you say you don't know who is shooting up your house but you know it is the Mexicans.


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## catzmeow

Ravi said:


> mmmkay, Squishi, then tell me who you mean when you say you don't know who is shooting up your house but you know it is the Mexicans.



The bullets smell like cumin.


----------



## sky dancer

Silver--

I'm really sorry to hear about what is happening in your neighborhood, and how trapped you feel there.

Sending you good thoughts.  I'm willing to listen and learn.


----------



## Gunny

Ravi said:


> Mexico is pretty cheap I hear.



Yep, and if I wanted to live there I'd emigrate LEGALLY after I brushed up on my Spanish.


----------



## catzmeow

Gunny said:


> Yep, and if I wanted to live there I'd emigrate LEGALLY after I brushed up on my Spanish.


I hope most Americans don't have this idea, I'm planning on retiring there, once they're all here.


----------



## sky dancer

Adios!


----------



## Agnapostate

catzmeow said:


> I don't think we can fully measure the impact, though it appears more negative than positive:
> 
> http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/87xx/doc8711/12-6-Immigration.pdf
> 
> ...
> 
> This is what I worry about, though, since I work for a significant amount of time with lower income urban communities:
> 
> Immigration and African-American Employment Opportunities: The Response of Wages, Employment, and Incarceration to Labor Supply Shocks
> 
> As long as Americans are still struggling (and they are), I don't really believe we should be allowing illegal immigration to increase their challenges.  These impacts are also felt by native Hispanics, Native Americans, poor whites, and others.  The economic impact of illegal immigration is the greatest on the poorest Americans.



I don't think anyone here necessarily denies that illegal immigrants pose a burden to legal citizens in some instances. In fact, I'll openly say that they in many circumstances, their use of social services exceeds their tax payments. 

But there are two factors to consider here. The first is one which only fellow consequentialists and utilitarians will likely care about, and which deontologists will likely scorn, which is the degree of the suffering caused to illegal immigrants through forcible deportation or border closing compared to the suffering caused to American taxpayers through the imposition of higher fees and taxes through the presence of illegal immigrants. I firmly believe that the suffering caused to illegal immigrants by forced residence in an inhumane and utterly destitute environment is more severe than that caused to American taxpayers through the imposition of higher taxes upon them. So, that's approaching the issue from a purely ethical perspective.

From a more "practical" perspective, we need to differentiate between causation and correlation as well as between cause and effect when it comes to analyzing the social and economic costs of illegal immigrants' presence in the U.S. 

I believe a case can be made that the problems incurred by illegal immigration can be remedied by amnesty and the granting of legal status to illegal immigrants. Consider this: 

Undocumented Immigrants in Georgia: Tax Contribution and Fiscal Concerns



> The question lawmakers attempt to answer is: Do undocumented immigrants pay enough in taxes to cover the services used? For undocumented immigrants, the answer is unclear. However, for legal immigrants, studies have shown that first generation immigrants pay more in federal taxes than they receive in federal benefits. The same does not hold true for state taxes and services, however, as first generation immigrants often use more in services than they pay in taxes. *However, the descendants of the first-generation immigrant correct that pattern and contribute more in taxes at both the federal and state level than they consume in services at both levels. Each generation successively contributes a greater share due to increased wages, language skills, and education.*



I don't believe that those "increased wages, language skills, and education" can be obtained by immigrants while they retain an illegal status, as this places them into a disenfranchised segment of the population. The wages are probably the most obvious example of this. 

While retaining an illegal status, immigrants are forced to either obtain low paying positions in the informal economy, (lawn mowing, house cleaning, etc.), or the lesser option that far fewer take of using fake social security numbers to obtain employment in the formal economy. In the former case, illegal immigrants' tax payments don't sufficiently cover their use of social services because of their low wages. In the latter case, immigrants' tax payments may cover their use of social services, but they are forced to commit a crime to obtain adequate employment. (It's also notable that in the latter case, immigrants do not reap the benefits of Social Security because of the fact that they use fake numbers, in which case the benefits will either go to the person who actually owns that number, or their payments will simply remain in federal coffers should no one have that number. So they're really only hurting themselves in that regard.) 

Should illegal immigrants be granted amnesty, they would be able to unionize and demand higher salaries and benefits, at which point they could pay a corresponding amount of taxes. 



Gunny said:


> Yep, and if I wanted to live there I'd emigrate LEGALLY after I brushed up on my Spanish.



I'm not sure where the idea that most Latin American immigrants were sullenly unwilling to learn English and demand that American communities promote Spanish came from. 92% of the Hispanic population believe that it's important for immigrants to learn English, while only 87% of whites and 83% of blacks believe the same. (www.pewhispanic.org/files/factsheets/20.pdf)


----------



## SW2SILVERQUASI

Ravi: I think YOU have some unresolved issues with "brown skin people" and you are over-compensating here. You have better come to grips with your own racial attitudes and stop projecting them on the rest of us. I have nothing to be ashamed of. Illegal aliens, dear, aren't a race. But they, and you, like to use RACE  (or culture) as some kind of rationale or excuse. Funny how that works.  Yes, indeed. You can't have it both ways. My house with the bullets in it, well, guess what ? That is a result of a dysfunctional mentality.  One that ignores immigration law or any other law  they can get away with.  A mentality that thinks force and the barrel of a gun can solve problems, my poor ol' home just got in the way. It's like this : that could just as well could have been Me or YOU  that took those slugs, as my house. It doesn't make any difference to those "friends" of yours, Ravi, either way. That little factoid  you have yet to grasp. THE extent of  contempt and disregard for  safety or common sense, these are the traits of illegal aliens YOU don't understand. That is an understatement of the year. It's that little dysfunctional mind set illegal aliens have you seem to either ignore or underestimate. It's the very reason we have this board isn't it? Some of us don't have the luxury of hiding behind phoney idealism.


----------



## Ravi

Yet many hide behind phony hate.

Are you going to answer my questions or keep spinning around like a top?


----------



## sky dancer

Yikes.  What happened to the topic?


----------



## SW2SILVERQUASI

Ravi, I like how you skirt the issue. What was the issue? Lions, tigers and bears,oh my!.. Please, Dorthy, I am no wizard, and this isn't Kansas any more, Toto. Would you like to recenter US on what the issue. Pease?


----------



## sky dancer

SW2SILVERQUASI said:


> Ravi, I like how you skirt the issue. What was the issue? Lions, tigers and bears,oh my!.. Please, Dorthy, I am no wizard, and this isn't Kansas any more, Toto. Would you like to recenter US on what the issue. Pease?



Hey Silver-

The impact of illegal immigration--is it exaggerated?  I would say no.

How do you keep your wits about you?  Seriously.  It sounds scary in your neighborhood.


----------



## Harry Dresden

i think the burden the illegals pose to society just might depend on the part of the country you live in...where i am at there are a few million,that puts a strain on things....if you live where there may be just a couple of thousand,it may not be that noticeable....we can see what it does in S.Cal.....the Colorado Gov. statement would be laughed at by most people here....


----------



## Agnapostate

Harry Dresden said:


> i think the burden the illegals pose to society just might depend on the part of the country you live in...where i am at there are a few million,that puts a strain on things....if you live where there may be just a couple of thousand,it may not be that noticeable....we can see what it does in S.Cal.....the Colorado Gov. statement would be laughed at by most people here....



And I think the burden would be alleviated through amnesty, as I provided evidence for above.


----------



## Lita456

Agnapostate said:


> And I think the burden would be alleviated through amnesty, as I provided evidence for above.




I don't agree with total amnesty, but dang, I can't believe your for amnesty, I'm shocked actually......................


----------



## Agnapostate

Lita456 said:


> I don't agree with total amnesty, but dang, I can't believe your for amnesty, I'm shocked actually......................



Is that right? Why would that be? And what portion of post #50 didn't indicate that total amnesty is the way to go?


----------



## Lita456

Agnapostate said:


> Is that right? Why would that be? And what portion of post #50 didn't indicate that total amnesty is the way to go?




Jeez I answered this last night?  I'm confused..........


----------



## WillowTree

I'm for total amnesty, total, and I look forward to 30 million more, and then 30 million more after that, yep illegal immigration is a good good good thing. When are the Chinese coming? I love the Chinese they are hard workers looking for a better life and they are fastidious gardners!


----------



## Agnapostate

Lita456 said:


> Jeez I answered this last night?  I'm confused..........



You didn't answer anything. You said that you were against total amnesty, but you don't appear to have stated why. 



WillowTree said:


> I'm for total amnesty, total, and I look forward to 30 million more, and then 30 million more after that, yep illegal immigration is a good good good thing. When are the Chinese coming? I love the Chinese they are hard workers looking for a better life and they are fastidious gardners!



What aspect of my ethical perspective suggested that this was a commendable or desirable course of action?


----------



## Lita456

Agnapostate said:


> You didn't answer anything. You said that you were against total amnesty, but you don't appear to have stated why.
> 
> 
> 
> What aspect of my ethical perspective suggested that this was a commendable or desirable course of action?




Yes I did answer this last night - funny, Svante said some of his posts disappeared as well.  I will answer this again later, I'm at work and getting ready to leave..........


----------



## Lita456

I believe the illegal immigrants that have been here a long time, and have made America their home, brought up their family here, work their butts off, pay taxes, and have no other criminal record should be offered a legalization plan without the wait time......

On the other hand, the illegal immigrants who commit crimes, don't care about anything or anyone should be deported ASAP - there needs to be a fine line on who's allowed in here and who isn't.

If you had full amnesty for everyone, it would be a free for all.............


----------



## SW2SILVERQUASI

This thread is going to hell in a hand basket. Yes, let's import cheap labor at  the expense of the culture. Hell yeah, using cheap labor that offsets the work of millions laborers and activist over the last 100 years for the for the benefit of the rich? Oh, me thinks something is a screwy in god's  green  universe when people condemn racism but give out nothing but praise for rich gobachos  using and abusing  illegal aliens ( Brown skin folks, in the parlance  ravi  can relate too).  I mean illegal aliens.  Why  is it OK to import them, and exploit them  for money, but  it's EVIL vile and RACIST to point that fact out?   And that " Classist"  crap rears it's ugly head.  Is it because most of the unaffected  people are white and upper class  and /or intellectuals that seem to be most concerned with   "class" or racism?  What are you afraid of, RAVI?  You like to tell me how racist I am, based on ...WHAT?  You are the racist here, as far as I can tell.  What the hell do you know about it? You like to sit there and second judge the rest of us.  Look a little harder at your own motives.


----------



## Ravi

SW2SILVERQUASI said:


> This thread is going to hell in a hand basket. Yes, let's import cheap labor at  the expense of the culture. Hell yeah, using cheap labor that offsets the work of millions laborers and activist over the last 100 years for the for the benefit of the rich? Oh, me thinks something is a screwy in god's  green  universe when people condemn racism but give out nothing but praise for rich gobachos  using and abusing  illegal aliens ( Brown skin folks, in the parlance  ravi  can relate too).  I mean illegal aliens.  Why  is it OK to import them, and exploit them  for money, but  it's EVIL vile and RACIST to point that fact out?   And that " Classist"  crap rears it's ugly head.  Is it because most of the unaffected  people are white and upper class  and /or intellectuals that seem to be most concerned with   "class" or racism?  What are you afraid of, RAVI?  You like to tell me how racist I am, based on ...WHAT?  You are the racist here, as far as I can tell.  What the hell do you know about it? You like to sit there and second judge the rest of us.  Look a little harder at your own motives.


Honestly? I think it is the way you present it.

I think if you calmed down a bit and had a rational discussion about immigration we'd have a better chance of understanding each other.

If we can start over, I'd like to say that I, like the guy in the OP, have my doubts about the impact these undocumented workers have on the US. Is it an overall good or bad impact? I've no real idea, do you?


----------



## SW2SILVERQUASI

Ravi, nothing would make me happier, perhaps we got off on the wrong foot. I will be back. Like a bad penny? Kidding. Adios.


----------



## Agnapostate

Lita456 said:


> I believe the illegal immigrants that have been here a long time, and have made America their home, brought up their family here, work their butts off, pay taxes, and have no other criminal record should be offered a legalization plan without the wait time......
> 
> On the other hand, the illegal immigrants who commit crimes, don't care about anything or anyone should be deported ASAP - there needs to be a fine line on who's allowed in here and who isn't.
> 
> If you had full amnesty for everyone, it would be a free for all.............



No society or country has a monopoly on crime...though it favors a utilitarian standpoint rather than a "national sovereignty" one, I'll say that the American criminal justice system can probably deal more effectively with criminals than those of their home countries can, not least due to the U.S.'s greater wealth and greater ability to afford forms of criminal justice. Such criminals would also likely inflict less suffering in an advanced first-world country than they would in their countries of origin, which are likely to have fewer law enforcement personnel and fewer outlets for victims of crime to access.

Moving on to the more pragmatic aspect of illegal immigration and crime, I'd first like to point out that according to a 2005 report by the GAO, _&#8220;We identified a population of 55,322 aliens that&#8230;had entered the country illegally and were still illegally in the country at the time of their incarceration in the country in federal or state prison or local jail during fiscal year 2003.&#8221;_

Now about half of that number were incarcerated for either drug-related offenses (an authoritarian drug war benefits no one) or for simply being in the country illegally. Now these immigrants are less than 3 percent of the total prison population, which means that legal citizens and legal immigrants comprise 97 percent of the prison population. I&#8217;d say that immigrants are actually less likely to commit crimes in some instances. A (Harvard) Kennedy School of Government study of men aged eighteen to forty found that immigrants were about one third less likely than legal citizens to be incarcerated in correctional institutions.

As I've asked previously, does a prohibitive, police state policy towards immigrants reduce crime? If there are severe criminals amongst illegal immigrants, how can the law-abiding among them report the criminals when they would be deported for stepping forward? 

I would speculate that the vast majority of the criminal offenses committed by illegal immigrants would be eradicated by three simple steps.

1) *Providing amnesty for all illegal immigrants and legalizing all border crossing.*

This would obviously empty prisons of the numerous illegal immigrants residing within them merely for the crime of having entered the country illegally, but legalization would also permit immigrants to unionize and demand increased salaries and benefits. At that point, immigrants would no longer exist in the impoverished state that necessitated that they commit crime. 

2) *Legalizing all drugs and implementing a system of regulation and taxation on them.*

This will eliminate drug-related crime, since a black market would no longer hold a monopoly over the sales of drugs, and drug cartels would vanish in the same manner as speakeasies have. 

3) *Repealing the North American Free Trade Agreement.*

Repealing NAFTA will result in the elimination of the unfortunate economic circumstances caused in Mexico by the spread of neoliberalism. 

There is also a fourth and unlikely step that might be taken.

4) *Providing financial and military aid to the Zapatista rebels in Chiapas.* 

Were the Zapatistas able to overthrow the Mexican government, they would establish a more humane and free society in Mexico.

Now what precisely is so shocking about me being for amnesty?


----------



## catzmeow

Agnapostate said:


> I don't think anyone here necessarily denies that illegal immigrants pose a burden to legal citizens in some instances. In fact, I'll openly say that they in many circumstances, their use of social services exceeds their tax payments.
> 
> But there are two factors to consider here. The first is one which only fellow consequentialists and utilitarians will likely care about, and which deontologists will likely scorn, which is the degree of the suffering caused to illegal immigrants through forcible deportation or border closing compared to the suffering caused to American taxpayers through the imposition of higher fees and taxes through the presence of illegal immigrants. I firmly believe that the suffering caused to illegal immigrants by forced residence in an inhumane and utterly destitute environment is more severe than that caused to American taxpayers through the imposition of higher taxes upon them. So, that's approaching the issue from a purely ethical perspective.
> 
> From a more "practical" perspective, we need to differentiate between causation and correlation as well as between cause and effect when it comes to analyzing the social and economic costs of illegal immigrants' presence in the U.S.



This is where you and I separate, ideologically.  I don't view all humans on this planet in the same way.  I don't believe that every human is entitled to settle wherever they wish, whenever they wish.  I believe that humans often have the government they wish/deserve, whatever that might be.  And when it comes to providing limited resources from THIS country to the world, i favor taking care of Americans first, and then relieving suffering elsewhere.

Illegal immigration negatively impacts poor folks in the U.S. by broadening the labor pool, keeping wages artificially stagnant, and thus, increasing the poverty and desperation of those in the U.S. who are destitute and suffering. And the problem of poverty in the U.S. is one we have not yet begun to solve, so we shouldn't be adding to it.



> I believe a case can be made that the problems incurred by illegal immigration can be remedied by amnesty and the granting of legal status to illegal immigrants. Consider this:
> 
> Undocumented Immigrants in Georgia: Tax Contribution and Fiscal Concerns



The problem is that illegal immigrants often pay taxes, but are not entitled to services.  If you legalize them, you will be increasing the burden on local schools, local services, local roads, local jails, etc., without a concurrent increase in income to those areas.  On a national scale, the impact is absorbed.  But at a local level, the impact can be catastrophic.



> I don't believe that those "increased wages, language skills, and education" can be obtained by immigrants while they retain an illegal status, as this places them into a disenfranchised segment of the population. The wages are probably the most obvious example of this.


I don't believe that these individuals are entitled to these benefits in the first place.  Let them apply to move here legally, through the existing system.  I do believe in population control. At present, we keep our population growing at a relatively slow pace because the more educated Americans become, the less frequently they breed.  However, illegal immigration leads to massive population increases that strain our infrastructure and that pose a threat to our natural environment and resources.



> Should illegal immigrants be granted amnesty, they would be able to unionize and demand higher salaries and benefits, at which point they could pay a corresponding amount of taxes.


On the other hand, it is simple economics.  Employment does not necessarily increase simply because you flood the labor pool with new, unionized employees.  More people in the labor pool = more competition for jobs = detrimental impact particularly on America's working poor who have already been left behind educationally and technologically.  Until we fix that problem, i do not believe we should be contributing to their woes.


----------



## catzmeow

Ravi said:


> Honestly? I think it is the way you present it.
> 
> I think if you calmed down a bit and had a rational discussion about immigration we'd have a better chance of understanding each other.
> 
> If we can start over, I'd like to say that I, like the guy in the OP, have my doubts about the impact these undocumented workers have on the US. Is it an overall good or bad impact? I've no real idea, do you?



perhaps you should bother to read up the thread where I provided statistics from a study by the CBO on this very subject, along with a study of the impact of illegal immigration on poor black Americans.


----------



## Ravi

catzmeow said:


> perhaps you should bother to read up the thread where I provided statistics from a study by the CBO on this very subject, along with a study of the impact of illegal immigration on poor black Americans.


I saw that. I believe I pre-addressed that report, though it could have been in another thread. The CBO even admits it's numbers and statistics are based on flimsy evidence.


----------



## catzmeow

Ravi said:


> I saw that. I believe I pre-addressed that report, though it could have been in another thread. The CBO even admits it's numbers and statistics are based on flimsy evidence.



What about the other study?


----------



## irie

Ya can't call em illegal aliens because that is derogitory...the correct term is unauthorized immigrant.....get it right!!!


----------



## Agnapostate

Why didn't I get a notification when this thread was revived? This is odd.


----------



## WillowTree

let them all come, let them all stay, let them bring all their families, when are the Chinese coming? They want a better life and are hard workers and keep fastidious gardens. Open the borders, no holds barred. Yes Yes yes!


----------



## sky dancer

Imagine there's no country.....

John Lennon


----------



## WillowTree

sky dancer said:


> Imagine there's no country.....
> 
> John Lennon



yes, just imagine, cause there won't be, and no food, no medicine or any education. we shall be so proud of ourselves.


----------



## catzmeow

WillowTree said:


> yes, just imagine, cause there won't be, and no food, no medicine or any education. we shall be so proud of ourselves.



Maybe the Indians will come to us with those things when WE'RE a third world country.


----------



## sky dancer

What makes you think that people will stop migrating for increased prosperity?


----------



## SW2SILVERQUASI

Si habla Espanol. Remember seeing signs stating that in small type on the bottom? Well, now days, with all the "diversity" and all, I see a plethora of signs ONLY in Spanish. I am made to feel like I am foreigner in my own homeland by people that just got of the bus from Tijuana. I feel like this is some kind of cold war.   I get evil stares. I get loud musica set to the torture level. When I  arrive home , some of my Hispanic wunderkinds want to take out his Anglo hatred on me.  Threats, anger, belligerence  because I am not Hispanic. Viva LA Freekin' RAZA. Diversity means just the opposite. Acclimation is now a insult ,  and diversity means just the opposite. Hispanic hegemony, that's "diversity". I am glad some of you don't understand that. When you figure it out,  then it's too late. Governor Ritter hasn't got a bloody clue. Meanwhile  some of us bleed and fear for our lives. That is no exaggeration, governor!


----------



## PoliticalJunky

Listen to this video and you will understand just how bad this problem is across the nation. This is only one damn hospital in Florida.

[ame="http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLJxmJZXgNI"]http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLJxmJZXgNI[/ame]


----------



## WillowTree

And we are buying them all a house, wonder why California is facing a 42 billion with a B. dollar deficit? Oh, but it's just an exaggeration donchaknow?


----------



## SW2SILVERQUASI

California and Colorado are going bankrupt, what a coincidence. We give sanctuary  to illegals.  I don't think that is  a coincidence.  Federico Fabian Peña was elected  Mayor of Denver,  well beyond my expectations, Freddy, me boyo, didn't quite live up to ANYONE'S expectations ,  Jesus F*cking Christ   , is that an understatement. But man, we paid the price, alright . Freddy paved the way. I saw his Spanish language  "message" on the local Spanish channel  yesterday. I never knew he spoke Spanish until then.   Didn't care, but he and a lot of you must! All those Hispanics cared who was whom . I didn't , I do NOW. Hispanics don't want diversity. Fact , they want dominance. Hegemony, I bet ol' Fredrico and Ravi won't press the point or admit that's what this is all about. Gringos stole their land. Racism. Xenophobia. Word up, sweetpea: I never stole anything. I have all these dillweeds from Tijuana living next door that  can't spell "Immigrant" in Spanish . They or their descendants were never here,  have no right or claim to this land.  But, here they are.   I  do like to hear from folks like you telling us folks how bad we are. And, then, you look the other way when those Hispanics get abused and used, cause' it' " good for the ECONOMY"? I think you, Ravi, are am archetypical  "liberal". I used  to be a liberal, then, I woke up and smelt the roses. I now live with illegal aliens, and, one day, so will you. Thank Freddy an folks like him.


----------



## Agnapostate

catzmeow said:


> This is where you and I separate, ideologically.  I don't view all humans on this planet in the same way.  I don't believe that every human is entitled to settle wherever they wish, whenever they wish.  I believe that humans often have the government they wish/deserve, whatever that might be.  And when it comes to providing limited resources from THIS country to the world, i favor taking care of Americans first, and then relieving suffering elsewhere.



I never said that anyone was entitled to settle wherever they wish, whenever they wish. Indeed, the European conquest of the Americas and destruction of its indigenous society would be a perfect example of precisely why it is inadvisable to permit people to do this. Citizens often do not have the government that they wish/deserve, particularly when the influence and direct intervention of superpowers prevents them from having such a government. I am quite sure that the Prime Minister Mohammed Mossadeq of Iran, President Jacobo Arbenz of Guatemala, President Salvador Allende of Chile, the Sandinistas of Nicaragua, etc., were all desired by their respective citizenries, given that they were democratically elected, despite the fact that the U.S. was complicit in their overthrow. 

That being said, you'll want to refer back to the very fundamental economic principle of the diminishing rate of marginal utility to examine the manner in which affluent states can aid wretchedly poor states and citizenries without sacrificing anything of comparable moral significance. For instance, if we were to refer back to the common example regarding a person waling by a shallow pond and seeing a small child facedown in the water, drowning in it, we would clearly see that it would be preferable to rescue the small child even if it would necessitate muddying one's trousers. Even if we were to assume that your assertion that aiding the poor elsewhere would cause the poor here to suffer was correct, (and I regard it as untrue), we might still say that it is preferable to rescue the child while breaking a limb, for instance. We make this assumption on the grounds that the extreme poverty experienced by many people around the world (augmented with starvation, preventable diseases) is far more severe and intense than the relatively lesser poverty that exists in an industrialized first-world country like the U.S. But I don't regard your premise as being accurate to begin with, and a conceivable option would be to steepen progressive tax rates on the upper class, those who would not sacrifice anything of comparable moral significance, to aid the severely destitute. 



catzmeow said:


> Illegal immigration negatively impacts poor folks in the U.S. by broadening the labor pool, keeping wages artificially stagnant, and thus, increasing the poverty and desperation of those in the U.S. who are destitute and suffering. And the problem of poverty in the U.S. is one we have not yet begun to solve, so we shouldn't be adding to it.



I disagree, and shall elaborate below. 



catzmeow said:


> The problem is that illegal immigrants often pay taxes, but are not entitled to services.  If you legalize them, you will be increasing the burden on local schools, local services, local roads, local jails, etc., without a concurrent increase in income to those areas.  On a national scale, the impact is absorbed.  But at a local level, the impact can be catastrophic.



...That was directly rebutted by the study that you just quoted, which indicates that legalization enables immigrants to contribute greater amounts of taxes not only at the federal level, but at the state level also. 



> The question lawmakers attempt to answer is: Do undocumented immigrants pay enough in taxes to cover the services used? For undocumented immigrants, the answer is unclear. However, for legal immigrants, studies have shown that first generation immigrants pay more in federal taxes than they receive in federal benefits. The same does not hold true for state taxes and services, however, as first generation immigrants often use more in services than they pay in taxes. *However, the descendants of the first-generation immigrant correct that pattern and contribute more in taxes at both the federal and state level than they consume in services at both levels. Each generation successively contributes a greater share due to increased wages, language skills, and education.*



Local services were not directly analyzed, but it's likely that they reap the same benefits, considering that another study in Colorado confirmed that immigrants paid about $1,861 in state and local taxes were they employees of the formal labor market, and about $1,370 in sales and property taxes were they employees of the informal labor market, totaling about 70 to 86% of the $225 million they used in state and local services, somewhere between $159 and $194 million dollars. (http://www.thebell.org/PUBS/IssBrf/2006/06ImmigTaxes.pdf)



> The debate over immigration reform arouses intense discussion about whether undocumented immigrants excessively burden Colorado taxpayers. Much of this debate revolves around the misinformed belief that undocumented immigrants impose massive costs on the state without paying taxes. *This brief clearly shows that undocumented immigrants pay enough state and local taxes to offset a large share of the three federally mandated services: K-12 education, emergency medical care and incarceration.*



Considering that this estimate of 70 to 86% was based on another estimate of 50% of illegal immigrants working in the formal economy, if the theoretical possibility of illegal immigrants working in the formal economy were to be adjusted to 90 to 100%, so that an additional 40 to 50% would be paying income taxes, they would exceed necessary tax payments for the state and local services that they used. 

Also, consider the three federally mandated services that they are using. Education is more often used by their offspring, many of whom are U.S. born citizens and thus legally entitled to it. 

As for emergency medical care, the prevalence of their need for it may decrease were they not situated in dangerous workplaces and neighborhoods due to their low economic status, and I have indicated that such a status would be dramatically altered by amnesty. 

As for incarceration, first consider this GAO report. 

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05646r.pdf



> We identified a population of 55,322 aliens that the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) in the Department of Homeland Security determined,based upon information in its immigration databases, had entered the country illegally and were still illegally in the country at the time of their incarceration in federal or state prison or local jail during fiscal year 2003...About 45 percent of all offenses were drug or immigration offenses. About 15 percent were property-related offenses such as burglary, larceny-theft, motor vehicle theft, and property damage. About 12 percent were for violent offenses such as murder, robbery, assault, and sex-related crimes. The balance was for such other offenses as traffic violations, including driving under the influence; fraudincluding forgery and counterfeiting; weapons violations; and obstruction of justice.



So almost half of that number were incarcerated for either drug-related offenses (an authoritarian drug war benefits no one) or for simply being in the country illegally. Now, considering that incarceration for illegal residence would obviously no longer exist were illegal immigrants to be granted amnesty, and that incarceration for drug-related offenses would no longer exist were the drug war to be ended, and that incarceration for many other criminal offenses necessitated by extreme poverty would no longer exist should their wages dramatically increase through entry into the formal labor market, and possibly into the primary sector of the dual labor market, as has been done in the aftermath of legalization before, many of these financial costs stand to be reduced even further. 



catzmeow said:


> I don't believe that these individuals are entitled to these benefits in the first place.  Let them apply to move here legally, through the existing system.  I do believe in population control. At present, we keep our population growing at a relatively slow pace because the more educated Americans become, the less frequently they breed.  However, illegal immigration leads to massive population increases that strain our infrastructure and that pose a threat to our natural environment and resources.



The current system permits an insufficient number of immigrants to enter, although a far larger amount could be permitted to enter, and therefore alleviate immigrants' immediate suffering without forcing upper class Americans to sacrifice anything of comparable moral significance. 



catzmeow said:


> On the other hand, it is simple economics.  Employment does not necessarily increase simply because you flood the labor pool with new, unionized employees.  More people in the labor pool = more competition for jobs = detrimental impact particularly on America's working poor who have already been left behind educationally and technologically.  Until we fix that problem, i do not believe we should be contributing to their woes.



On the contrary, I would note that you seem to be ignoring dual labor market theory in your analysis. Because there are currently heavy restrictions on immigrants entering the primary sector of the dual labor market, they are largely relegated to the secondary sector, which is unregulated and characterized by low wages and a lack of benefits. Hence, though I do not deny that they are competing with low-skilled workers in the United States, I don't believe that it is their mere presence that causes this, but rather their disenfranchisement and the deprivation of their rights at the hands of the law. 

Apart from global inequalities caused by other forms of neoliberalism, (for instance, the presence of many low-skilled workers in the U.S. that need cheap jobs alongside the wave of immigrants that also need jobs could be interpreted as global economic restructuring and indications of global poverty everywhere), trade liberalization is largely responsible for the domestic economic failures that you seek to blame on the presence of illegal immigrants. The North American "Free Trade" Agreement, for instance, was a particularly crushing blow. Outsourcing of jobs and labor to cheap workers in foreign countries not only has profoundly negative impacts on the socioeconomic circumstances of workers in those countries, it permits domestic employers to threaten low-skilled workers with termination unless they cede many of their union gains and benefits. It also results in the mass displacement of workers in countries where trade liberalization is implemented.

As I've mentioned previously, the implementation of the North American "Free Trade" Agreement served to displace multitudes of the Mexican working class by eliminating the need for their jobs. (The impact on corn farmers is a perfect example of this.) Mexican manufacturing wages fell by 21% during the 1990's, and other forms of socioeconomic decay, such as increased poverty rates, also set in. (Dear Dr. Dollar | Dollars & Sense) Unemployment has also risen in Mexico since the treaty was signed, and the agricultural and industrial sectors have suffered. (http://cmd.princeton.edu/papers/NAFTA and Mexican Immigration.pdf)

There has been popular dissatisfaction with NAFTA among the lower classes in Mexico, as most clearly manifested through the formation of the Zapatista Army of National Liberation, and their declaration of war against the Mexican government. Hence, it is a treaty heavily hyped by American authorities as promoting American interests that has caused wage depression and socioeconomic problems in Mexico that have resulted in a wave of immigration.



catzmeow said:


> perhaps you should bother to read up the thread where I provided statistics from a study by the CBO on this very subject, along with a study of the impact of illegal immigration on poor black Americans.



The "study" that I saw indicated correlation, not causation, and I have explained why that correlation might exist.


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## Agnapostate

Will we have a response sometime?


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

Agnost, you have a longwinded way of saying nothing. There is much to be said for brevity, Einstein. Yes, my over-analytical friend. Let me see if I read you right : You oppose uncontrolled  immigration but you oppose controlling it  as well...Hmmm. Perhaps you can change your self description from contrarian  to equivocator. In the metaphor with the drowning child, I don't think that quite fits the current situation . About helping others, it's got to be a matter of choice. Oh yes, there's a lot to be said about self preservation, as Darwin remarked.  Let's say that there are 12 million lemmings all  throwing themselves off a cliff into the sea. They don't have to, yet they follow each other into the ocean. I will be damned if people like  you will decide for the rest of us what moral course we need take on this matter.  You, Agnost, I appoint you lifeguard to the lemmings.


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## Agnapostate

"Self-preservation"? Do we have a social Darwinist here? Do you know anything about kin altruism or cooperation? Have you read _Mutual Aid_ by Peter Kropotkin?


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

Agnost: I think that this issue, and most other issues we face now, are a result of overpopulation. Sorry, I am no intellectual. It's a personal issue. I feel for that drowning child. That drowning child, that's me. That's the American poor underclass being overwhelmed by a flood that we are powerless to fight. People that aren't affected, they seem to feel that it's fair that we shoulder the consequences. Keep in mind, there are two sides to this issue. Believe me, it's no abstraction.  Sorry if I offended you in the earlier post.


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## Agnapostate

I've already emphasized the fact that immigrants would be able to achieve a higher economic status were they to receive legal status, so that's not really a tenable argument...


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## William Joyce

Agnapostate said:


> I've already emphasized the fact that immigrants would be able to achieve a higher economic status were they to receive legal status, so that's not really a tenable argument...



Not really.  Legalizing a low-IQ, non-English-speaking person from the Third World won't make them a better economic contributor.  They'll just be a LEGAL low-IQ, non-English-speaking person instead of an ILLEGAL one.


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## Agnapostate

William Joyce said:


> Not really.  Legalizing a low-IQ, non-English-speaking person from the Third World won't make them a better economic contributor.  They'll just be a LEGAL low-IQ, non-English-speaking person instead of an ILLEGAL one.



I don't imagine that criminalizing the presence of a low-IQ, non-English speaking person would be creating an environment especially conducive to immigrants reversing those conditions.


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## William Joyce

Agnapostate said:


> I don't imagine that criminalizing the presence of a low-IQ, non-English speaking person would be creating an environment especially conducive to immigrants reversing those conditions.



I imagine that if you keep them out to begin with -- or throw them out when they pop up -- you eliminate the cost borne by our country for whatever crap is involved.


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## Agnapostate

William Joyce said:


> I imagine that if you keep them out to begin with -- or throw them out when they pop up -- you eliminate the cost borne by our country for whatever crap is involved.



Does that seem to have been an effective solution thus far? You have not addressed my arguments that long-term cost would be alleviated by legalization, and have also ignored the fact that short-term costs to citizens are not morally comparable to short *and* long term costs to immigrants themselves.


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## carpe deus

Agnapostate said:


> Does that seem to have been an effective solution thus far? You have not addressed my arguments that long-term cost would be alleviated by legalization, and have also ignored the fact that short-term costs to citizens are not morally comparable to short *and* long term costs to immigrants themselves.



You pose as a representative of fellow "progressive" Mexicans, but they remain heavily Catholic, and would be repulsed by your ethical views.


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## Agnapostate

carpe deus said:


> You pose as a representative of fellow "progressive" Mexicans, but they remain heavily Catholic, and would be repulsed by your ethical views.



You've never had the courage to confront me head-on, have you? You apparently stalk me under a number of disguises, seeking to create the illusion that there are multitudes after me...but it's just you.


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## carpe deus

Agnapostate said:


> You've never had the courage to confront me head-on, have you? You apparently stalk me under a number of disguises, seeking to create the illusion that there are multitudes after me...but it's just you.



You treat me as a spy while I merely observe your activities on *public Internet forums.* I have made a valid observation about Mexican culture's unwillingness to accept your ethical system.


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

Perhaps the problem isn't so much about immigration.  It's the mind set of the people that choose to immigrate illegally.  It's not a race or a culture. It is a  paradigm. These people won't immigrate legally.  This  group of people  believe  that THEY don't have to respect American culture or American law. They are not being made responsible for their actions. Why should they respect American culture? Why should they respect ANY law? We submit to them and buckle under pressure like a house of cards.  Illegal Aliens  are not  constrained to follow any law,  as long as their needs dictate it and they can do so without getting caught.  Most of us honest folks call that deluded mentality "criminal". Then, on the other side of this equation, are those people  that help and support illegal aliens. They are  just as deluded.  With a sprinkled of Anglo guilt and a touch of avarice thrown in for good measure. In the name of humanity , exploit  fellow  human beings for profit. Defend illegals and then use them like animals. That's a higher ideal that's  part of this  new paradigm.  We know what that IS.  The hypocrisy never ends.  All these wealthy white folks that have so much compassion for poor Latin American " immigrants" and none for their  poor American brethren, that makes me colder and cynical.  My earlier posts may have been dripping with desperation and hysteria. I am turning a new leaf, I can be just as cold blooded and distant as the rest of you, but it  doesn't change my message one iota.


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## Agnapostate

Uh, no...it's typically not feasible for them to immigrate legally due to heavy restrictions and U.S. policies.


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

It's not feasible? Agnost, you mean it's not convenient. You are deluding yourself. It won't hurt them. Most of the illegal aliens I have talked to about this, NONE of them would suffer dire consequences of having to wait a few months or even total denial. Oh, yes, I actually know really flesh and blood human beings that are deemed "illegal". I am not exploiting them, either.


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## Agnapostate

So you've spoken to a few people...anecdotal evidence. I could claim I've spoken to a few people who've said just the opposite, and what would that prove? 

I simply take it as logical that people willing to trek through the desert or pack into trucks like cans of sardines aren't exactly in the best of circumstances.


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

So, Agnost, what source  would you respect? Well, I venture to say, my anecdotal evidence is a lot more than you have. I take the word of  human beings above and beyond any statistics you may quote.  I live in a barrio. And it's not as diverse and as  utopian as  YOU might like. You lack a certain perspective. Try living in a barrio for ten years or so, then come back and give us your comfortable little liberal pedantic lecture. Please, it would lend a certain air of authenticity  to your rants you have yet to have gained.


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## Agnapostate

Liberal? Idiot, I'm an anarchist. Do you live in Boyle Heights? Lincoln Heights? When you do, you can claim that you live in more of a "barrio" than me.


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

OK. Wow, that warms the cockles of my heart. Anarchist get all the chicks and all those green cubes of approval on this board? Do tell, there is a paradigm I am going to change, boyo.


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## Agnapostate

Doesn't look like you've got the rep to do it, son.


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

Agnost. You switch gears and motivations, makes me feel validated being so  paranoid and hysterical. I still live in a Barrio, that isn't an exaggeration. It isn't a lie.  You are an Anarchist... well, what does  that have to do with immigration? Could you explain that?


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## Agnapostate

You claimed that I was a liberal, so I instructed you as to the falseness of that by informing you that I was an anarchist. You also said that you lived in the barrio and I did not, so I countered that you could claim to live in a worse barrio than me when you lived in Boyle Heights or Lincoln Heights. Or even Lennox.


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

Falseness?  I don't know what Boyle Heights are. I live in the Swansea district of Denver. A thousand miles from nowhere. Yet, all  We get all these illegal immigrants, the type my niece married, like my nephews and nieces, and that is were I an coming from . it's isn't a wet dream of the fox network or republicans, hell, they exploit illegals just as much as the rest of you do, Agnost. You are as much a anarchist as George Bush Jr.  is, boyo.


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## Agnapostate

Yeah, gotta tell you, that doesn't sound like much of a "barrio."

Boyle Heights, on the other hand...Boyle Heights, Los Angeles, California - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

Boyo, you live were? Please. In the Gated States of Angloland? I know how much you like to define yourself. Ambiguity, that's  YOU ,   Agnost. Wow, yer such a Pioneer for human rights. Or, perhaps, yer a pioneer for  Joseph Stalin, I don't think you know where you  come from either, Ambiguity has it's privilege.  Isn't that right? So, were do you live?


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

By the by, this quaint thread, was about  Colorado's  Governor Bill Ritter. He says illegals are...exaggerated. He lives about 6 miles or so from me, and I am sure this is some political  crap because he and YOU can't be this god-damn dumb to notice what illegal aliens are doing, are you? NO? Or is there some other explanation for this shit? I would love to hear it.


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## Agnapostate

What are you blathering about this time? Something nonsensical, no doubt.

Why are immigrants' incarceration rates so low? evidence on selective immigration, deterrence, and deportation


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

Agnost: What are you blathering about? Is this a criticism? Nice try, boyo. I  speak from experience, you ? I could quote a million different sources, I could  be total liar, a total  psychopath , ya never know, do ya? I don't have to prove anything, sweetheart. It's up to you, my socialist antithetical hero, prove your  thesis , bubbaroony... You have one, don't you?


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

NO? I live with illegals, numbnuz, I don't need you or anyone else's opinion  legitimizing them or excusing them, for that matter. Too bad you don't live with them, I bet that would change your opinion, but we cant' have everything, can we? Stil,l it would be sweet when pro- illegal folks really truly dealt with ALL the effects, and skipped all that yadda yadda racist xenophobic name calling crap. Life would be so sweet...Hubris, anyone?


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## Agnapostate

Try cutting the Prozac tablets in half next time.


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

Agnost, you have a way of saying NOTHING at all. Would you like to say, geographically, were YOU come from?  No? I practically give ya'all a GPS pinpoint, and as always, you equivocate. Are you  always such a wuss ? Equivocate, play  games and gee whiz, it's no wonder ya support illegal aliens. That's exactly what they do, play games and dance around the facts. How nice. So, were do you live? I notice  that you NEVER answer that question directly. A Barrio? A white gated community? What? What experience DO you have, anyway?


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## RoadVirus

RodISHI said:


> Iowa has it's fair share of illegal workers, "Immigration agents arrested 389 employees during a raid in May". Just one plant.


Meatpacking plants are magnets for illegals. Just ask Swift and Tyson, who have had their plants repeatedly raided by ICE.




GHook93 said:


> Just take CA for example! It is said that if CA stop providing free healthcare, education, welfare and section 8 to illegals then they would have a balance budget! Absolutely amazing! But CA fucked! First they have sanctuary cities, but there is no way around it for the politician. If the politician comes out against it or illegal aliens, the large latino population and bleeding heart dumb ass libs will vote there sorry butts out of office. I personally believe CA is destined to become part of Mexico, same with AZ and NM!


California can be written off as a lost cause as long as the bleeding heart liberals run amok there. The LA Mayor is the worst of them all.




Agnapostate said:


> I believe a case can be made that the problems incurred by illegal immigration can be remedied by amnesty and the granting of legal status to illegal immigrants.


Amnesty does nothing but reward bad behavior. Besides, after we give them amnesty, in 20 years another 12 million illegals will want an amnesty of their own. When does the shit stop?


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

Agnost:  For a "contrairian" , you are pretty conformist. You want to debate statistics?  You have the same facts  I do, it's matter of how you read them. This a matter of philosophy. And a little experience on the issue doesn't hurt, either.  This board gives us a forum to express our opinion. You know what they say about opinions and assholes?    For me, this debate segues into an example of mass delusion. The American public is being fooled .  Otherwise intelligent people are deluding  themselves , regardless of the facts.  It seems that if you folks don't like the facts, then you set about redefining them to fit your  ideals. Illegal aliens are not really illegal, and they aren't aliens, either.  No, they become"immigrants". Of course, in the loosest sense of the word, they ARE  immigrants. And for some of you, that ends this debate. Well, except that oversimplification leaves out the main point of contention: the basic dishonesty and misrepresentation that this set of "immigrants" operate under is what sets illegal aliens apart  from legitimate "Immigrants". For instance, I could follow that same logic to the word "visitor".  If I was to  walk into your home, without your knowledge , permission  or mutual respect any human being wants, still I could say, I am a "visitor".  Sounds innocuous enough. That's the point, isn't it? It's the way this set of immigrants choose to "immigrate" that is suspect.  When these persons WON"T openly ask permission,  use stealth and ambiguity to disguise their motives, that challenges the definition. You  folks hide behind euphemisms. It's a con job and  some of you folks  are too eager to show how compassionate you are, you are loosing your skepticism and rationality for the sake of popular consensus.  You people know the difference between a "visitor" and a "trespasser", use that same standard of logic when it comes to the difference between "immigrant" and "illegal alien". I know, that's asking a lot. In the popular vernacular: Stop drinking the koolaid.


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

Oh, yeah, I forgot. Agnost doesn't need facts, he's a  "anarchist". Gee wiz , perhaps some of our younger posters would like to look that term up. How's anarchy working for ya, boyo? Better than all those cheap shots, I hope. And, you demand logic and statistics for illegal aliens?  And your mindset / lifestyle is about uncontrolled insanity? And then, you have the nerve to impugn my sanity ? Hmmm.  You know what? I won't hold your support of illegal aliens against them.


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## sky dancer

SW2SILVERQUASI said:


> By the by, this quaint thread, was about  Colorado's  Governor Bill Ritter. He says illegals are...exaggerated. He lives about 6 miles or so from me, and I am sure this is some political  crap because he and YOU can't be this god-damn dumb to notice what illegal aliens are doing, are you? NO? Or is there some other explanation for this shit? I would love to hear it.


Don't you think he is referring to the illegal immigration _rhetoric_ being exaggerated?  That's definitely true.


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## Ravi

This morning on our local radio news it was revealed that undocumented latin men are being mugged at disproportionate rates because they usually travel by foot or bike at night and carry cash from being paid under the table. Squishi should be happy they are bearing the burden of increased muggings as the economy worsens.


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## sky dancer

Ravi said:


> This morning on our local radio news it was revealed that undocumented latin men are being mugged at disproportionate rates because they usually travel by foot or bike at night and carry cash from being paid under the table. Squishi should be happy they are bearing the burden of increased muggings as the economy worsens.



Hate crime has increased against latinos--largely due to immigration frustrations.  I don't think anyone would find increased violence something to celebrate.

Problem is that those who committ hate crime also choose to harm legal latino descent US citizens.


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## Agnapostate

SW2SILVERQUASI said:


> Oh, yeah, I forgot. Agnost doesn't need facts, he's a  "anarchist". Gee wiz , perhaps some of our younger posters would like to look that term up. How's anarchy working for ya, boyo? Better than all those cheap shots, I hope. And, you demand logic and statistics for illegal aliens?  And your mindset / lifestyle is about uncontrolled insanity? And then, you have the nerve to impugn my sanity ? Hmmm.  You know what? I won't hold your support of illegal aliens against them.



Which "uncontrolled insanity" are you referring to?


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## Lita456

sky dancer said:


> Hate crime has increased against latinos--largely due to immigration frustrations.  I don't think anyone would find increased violence something to celebrate.
> 
> Problem is that those who committ hate crime also choose to harm legal latino descent US citizens.





I agree with this post SD....morning BTW....you hear about it all the time, especially recently around my parts, two latino men were killed for being exactly that, latino and the people that killed them thought they were illegal.  Sad really.


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## Ravi

sky dancer said:


> Hate crime has increased against latinos--largely due to immigration frustrations.  I don't think anyone would find increased violence something to celebrate.
> 
> Problem is that those who committ hate crime also choose to harm legal latino descent US citizens.


These weren't hate crimes. They were more opportunistic crimes...guy on a bike late at night carrying cash...kind of a sure thing for a mugger.


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

Agnost: Please, you are being bashful. Don't play coy. *"Anarchy"* isn't a shining example of sanity, but perhaps you can fill me in on the little details. You weren't breast fed, were you? Come on now, that junk  died with Sacco and Vanzetti. All that stuff like motor cars, radio and even the Internet were not invented by anarchists, bubba.


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## Agnapostate

Of course not. Nor were they created by a "free market." They were created by heavily subsidized government industries. 

Moreover, autogestion of the nature practiced in Argentina has affected about 200 workplaces and 15,000 workers, allowing them to recover from the 2001 economic crisis. Important examples of the benefits of workers' self-management include the Hotel Bauen, the Brukman Factory, and the Fabrica Sin Patrones.


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

Agnost: I am a "worker'.  I never heard of the of the term " Autogestion" before. Then I found it on Wikpedia,  It goes back to the Spanish civil war and Communism. Are you nuts? And then it refers  to the Spanish verb recuperar means not only "to get back", "to take back" or "to reclaim" but also "to put back into good condition". Although initially referring to industrial facilities, the term may be extensive to businesses other than factories (i.e. Hotel Bauen in Buenos Aires). OK....Is this some veiled attempt to rationalize illegal aliens stealing back Aztlan for Mexico? NO? It's bullshit and we both know it. They are neo slaves for the Capitalists  you hate. Illegal aliens and their exploiters, and you support THAT? breaking up Unions American workers fought and died for over the years, LITERALLY? Is that what an anarchist is all about? Yer really in the back pocket of the Globlaist? Please.  You are nuttier than a fruitcake. Or Neurotic as hell, I can tell which any more.


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

I love this board. I have like, less than zero reputation and yet  I feel so..vindicated, so totally right because  this board is such a echo chamber.  You repeat each other and hear all you want to hear. This board is a shame on  diversity. It's a conformist's ass kissing club.  Groucho Marx once said " I wouldn't be a member of any club that would have me as a member" or some such. I totally understand that. Too bad the rest of you folks don't.


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

Guess what? I'm a sensitive ol' soul.  I'm also an artist...in a world of human wreckage.  I have a talent . I can draw. Paint,  so what.  I have two eyes and I  can see what is happening. And I also have a camera. They say a picture is worth a thousand words, well, I  think it's worth a lot less. And the truth, it's worth even less . Apparently, judging from the responses from my posts, truth becomes a  meaningless rant in the face of  bald faced unopposed dumb ass stupid conformity  . Congratulations, all of you illegal alien supporters, I hope you are proud of yourselves. You don't have a clue what  harm you are doing. You have no clue at all.  I'd  tell you, but you'd ignore me, anyway. Kudos. Give yourselves big pat on the back for self  righteousness, would you? I knew that wouldn't be too much to ask. That is what you folks do best.


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## Agnapostate

SW2SILVERQUASI said:


> Agnost: I am a "worker'.  I never heard of the of the term " Autogestion" before. Then I found it on Wikpedia,  It goes back to the Spanish civil war and Communism. Are you nuts? And then it refers  to the Spanish verb recuperar means not only "to get back", "to take back" or "to reclaim" but also "to put back into good condition". Although initially referring to industrial facilities, the term may be extensive to businesses other than factories (i.e. Hotel Bauen in Buenos Aires). OK....Is this some veiled attempt to rationalize illegal aliens stealing back Aztlan for Mexico? NO? It's bullshit and we both know it. They are neo slaves for the Capitalists  you hate. Illegal aliens and their exploiters, and you support THAT? breaking up Unions American workers fought and died for over the years, LITERALLY? Is that what an anarchist is all about? Yer really in the back pocket of the Globlaist? Please.  You are nuttier than a fruitcake. Or Neurotic as hell, I can tell which any more.



You chose to refer to anarchism...hence I chose to refer you to autogestion, or workers' self-management, a key tenet of anarchist theory, as is practiced in Argentina, and as was practiced in the Spanish Revolution.


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## matty

Maybe he means auto*sugg*estion, you know subliminal shit, Ag's all about that stuff, that's his thing, isn't it, Ag?


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## Agnapostate

ratty, I was about to slam you for stumbling into a topic you know nothing about, but then I realized that you knew at least as much about autogestion as you do about any other topic.


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## matty

Agnapostate said:


> ratty, I was about to slam you for stumbling into a topic you know nothing about, but then I realized that you knew at least as much about autogestion as you do about any other topic.



I took even the narrowest chance at slamming you--at the risk of sounding _Childish_.*snicker*


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## Agnapostate

*yawn*


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

Agnost: When I read  your responses, I thought of that little guy standing in front of those tanks in Tiananmen Square.  So, tell me, how well do you think the principal of Autogestion will work in China?  China already is a Communist worker's "paradise' . Too bad the workers there aren't sharing in all that wealth. It seems the global economy has corrupted everything.  That's why we get illegal aliens in America, it's good for the "economy".  It isn't about humanitarianism or compassion, it never was. China uses it's billions of people to expand it's influence. Using people as a  disposable exploitable resource. That is what American employers are doing. They move factories overseas, outsource or hire illegal aliens, forget Americans and the unions or safety rules and all that, it all goes out the window. It's funny, Communist Chinese and the Republic of the United States have practically abandoned their core ideals for the sake of  profits.  Except, the economy  is collapsing in on itself, like a black hole. It eats up everything and then leaves nothing, no light, no energy, nothing. That's where we seem to be going now, isn't it?


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## Agnapostate

China is not and has never been a communist country, and has lost even its authoritarian socialist nature since the reign of Deng Xiaopang. If you're interested in legitimate applications of socialism, seek out the Paris Commune. Seek out the Free Territory of Ukraine. Seek out the anarchist collectives of the Spanish Revolution.

Aside from that, I'd say that you make valid points about globalization.


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

Agnost: Please, even YOU, despite stretching the difference between socialism and communism, know it's all bullshit. You don't mention that little guy standing fast against those Fascist totalitarian Tanks. You relate to abstract ideals,  but I relate to that little  guy, he is the human being and he represents all of us...in the struggle against a faceless oppressing machine. And you make excuses for the machine and the oppressors? They hire and exploit illegal aliens, they do it because its 'Good for the Economy". The Chinese Government doesn't care about the welfare of it's workers, either.  What country cares STRICTLY about the worker anymore? Argentina? Please. They made all those dissidents  vanish the same way the Chinese would ? Please. I live with and work around illegal aliens.  Really, truly, all they have to do is immigrate legally. That is it. I know,  you  think it sounds   inane,  don't confuse  inanity with obvious yet  elegant simplicity. It is that simple. We wouldn't be debating this otherwise.


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## Agnapostate

And thus, I propose that they receive amnesty, and that all border crossing be decriminalized, which would encourage them to use safer border checkpoints.


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

Agnost, yer OK, despite what everyone else says. Amnesty? I don't know,  I used to reject it out of hand, but not now.  I have talked to quite a few illegal aliens. The  most mentioned reason they gave for coming here  was for the jobs. Money. Not from hunger or political persecution or dire consequences. Nope . Nada. That's not good enough anymore.  And they risk their lives to get here.  Yes, some of them do.  That reminds me of a high stakes gambler that bets the family farm and/or their lives for petty greed. If I risk my life and rob a bank, I don't get to keep the money if I got caught, either. What illegals risk isn't a good enough reason for us to open our boarders as far I understand.  At  least they can try to immigrate legally. They can give this country respect , honor  and have backbone and some dignity.  All immigrants need to be scrutinized. Besides,  how many of them REALLY need be here?  And how many are just opportunist ?  How many of them could be terrorists, or criminals or mentally  ill or have communicable diseases? Surely, those are legitimate aspects of immigration that shouldn't be ignored. And, one other thing, we are running out of resources and plain old fashioned room, as well.  Amnesty: Yes... conditionally. Open boarders: NO, unconditionally.


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## matty

editec said:


> A good friend of mine has just become involved with a woman who moved here to Maine from New Mexico.  She took a very serious hit in income to make this move.
> 
> So, why did she move?
> 
> Because in the last year three of her friends had been robbed, one severely beaten, one murdered, because of the crime in that area.
> 
> This woman loves Mexicans, (she's an uber-liberal). She loves the Mexican culture and she cares tremendously about the immigrants -- both legal and illegal -- but the crime she is fleeing from was all perpetrated by people who appeared to be Hispanic gangbangers.
> 
> I personally find it hard to believe that having ten or twenty million illegal immigrants, most of whom are desperately poor, is NOT going to strain a society's resources, and part of that strain will inevitably come to that society in the form of  crime.
> 
> Something needs to be done to stop this flow of illegals into the nation, folks.
> 
> This woman is clearly no racist, but she fled New Mexico because of the violent crime which she says is getting worse all the time.
> 
> She'd live in New Mexico for over twenty years, so I suspect she knows of what she speaks.


The problem in Mexico has been all over the news for a long time, just escalating to more shocking heights in the past yr, calling a lot more attention to it.

This thread should've been linked from the beginning probably and quoted so people wouldn't have either misunderstood what it said in the first place about Ritter., I don't know if anyone ever caught on that the poster said Ritter had said it was NOT an exaggeration--didn't finish the thread yet.

But if it were an all out exaggeration, anyway, there' wouldn't be so much fodder to pounce on for the evidence.  If it's an exaggeration, it's a laughable one to trouble ourselves splitting hairs about.


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## matty

Agnapostate said:


> China is not and has never been a communist country, and has lost even its authoritarian socialist nature since the reign of Deng Xiaopang.


They practically have their people sequestered away from the rest of the world in an 'insular' environment of total information censorship right now, where the rest of us are open to limitless possibility.  They have their internet under lock n' key and their people brainwashed into appreciating the service, like good little Stepford Wives/worker-bees.


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## matty

Agnapostate said:


> Which "uncontrolled insanity" are you referring to?


...sift thru his collection of premeditated monologues at his back pocket for this territory, eh, Agna?


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## michiganFats

The illegal immigration argument is a diversion. This nation is suffering just as much from ill-advised legal immigration levels as it is from illegal immigration. I don't condone a centrally planned economy, but since we have one, we need to take into account the legal immigration also, and it's a killer when one region has a bunch of russians, and nigerians, and poles, and germans, and arabs dumped on it. I know that some parts of the country have a lot of illegals there, but when we talk about immigration, lets not forget the legal immigrants who are also here screwing up the labor pool for the rest of us. And by the way, I didn't pull those nationalities out of a hat, that's what I have to deal with every time I go on a job interview.


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## RoadVirus

michiganFats said:


> I know that some parts of the country have a lot of illegals there, but when we talk about immigration, lets not forget the legal immigrants who are also here screwing up the labor pool for the rest of us.


You're talking about work visas, right? The ones that let in people from India to take the Tech jobs.


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## Agnapostate

matty said:


> ...sift thru his collection of premeditated monologues at his back pocket for this territory, eh, Agna?



What is this nonsense? Do you have anything intelligent to say?


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## michiganFats

RoadVirus, actually I'm talking about all of the Eastern Europeans that have been dumped here in Michigan over the last 10 years. No work visas,they have green cards. We just let them in, they live here now, and they are seriously f'ing up the labor pool here.


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## indago

*CNN  LOU DOBBS TONIGHT  Aired January 13, 2009 - 19:00 ET*

LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: The ACLU continues to advocate for the rights of illegal immigrants over American citizens. An official may have tried to threaten a Colorado judge. It's a story you'll only see on this broadcast. Casey Wian has our report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Law enforcement officials in Weld County, Colorado, allege 1,300 illegal aliens used stolen identities to receive $2.7 million in improper federal tax refunds. Now the ACLU has taken up the case of the tax preparer who filed all of the returns. She has not been accused of wrongdoing, but the ACLU says she want her client's tax forms back and is planning to sue for invasion of privacy, this after a Colorado judge threw out criminal charges against one of the defendants and ordered arrests halted. He said local authorities appeared to be intruding on a federal issue, because their evidence is mostly based on federal tax returns, and he raised privacy concerns. County Prosecutor Ken Buck who is leading the investigation, dubbed operation numbers games, has filed 130 criminal charges so far. He's been frustrated by the judicial delays. 

KEN BUCK, WELD COUNTY, COLO. DA: Any time you're dealing with illegal immigration cases or illegal immigrants having committed crimes, there is a concern about individuals leaving the jurisdiction. These particular defendants are highly qualified at assuming other identities, and so I think it's easier for them to pick up and move.

WIAN: Last week, an existing grand jury indicted five new defendants, clearing they way for arrest warrants in those cases. Prosecutors then requested a separate grand jury to investigate all the cases. Grand juries have a different standard for prosecution, one Buck believes would allow the disputed tax returns. But Mark Silverstein, the Colorado ACLU's legal director, wrote the judge who was considering appointing the grand jury. The letter warns of the tax preparer's planned lawsuit and then says to the judge, "It is unusual for me to write a letter like this but I wanted to provide you with a heads up in case it may inform your decision about whether to convene a grand jury or when to schedule it." Legal experts agree it is unusual, but not necessarily improper. 

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WIAN: We called Silverstein to ask if the letter was an attempt to persuade the judge not to convene the grand jury if that was the intent, it failed. He agreed not to seat just one, but two grand juries to investigate all 1,300 I.D. theft cases  Lou? 

DOBBS: He can say whatever he wants to. I can't imagine what it would be if it were not an attempt to intimidate the judge with the possibility of legal action. 

WIAN: What was really surprising to me, Lou, when I first read this letter, I thought this was outrageous. But the legal experts I spoke with says it's not necessarily improper. It's just attorneys advocating for their client and this kind of stuff goes on more than we know. 

DOBBS: Well, the fact that he convened not one, but two grand juries tells you why it is unusual, but it obviously backfired in this case. Casey, thank you very much. Casey Wian.


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## catzmeow

indago said:


> *CNN  LOU DOBBS TONIGHT  Aired January 13, 2009 - 19:00 ET*
> 
> LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: The ACLU continues to advocate for the rights of illegal immigrants over American citizens. An official may have tried to threaten a Colorado judge. It's a story you'll only see on this broadcast. Casey Wian has our report.
> 
> (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
> 
> CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Law enforcement officials in Weld County, Colorado, allege 1,300 illegal aliens used stolen identities to receive $2.7 million in improper federal tax refunds. Now the ACLU has taken up the case of the tax preparer who filed all of the returns. She has not been accused of wrongdoing, but the ACLU says she want her client's tax forms back and is planning to sue for invasion of privacy, this after a Colorado judge threw out criminal charges against one of the defendants and ordered arrests halted. He said local authorities appeared to be intruding on a federal issue, because their evidence is mostly based on federal tax returns, and he raised privacy concerns. County Prosecutor Ken Buck who is leading the investigation, dubbed operation numbers games, has filed 130 criminal charges so far. He's been frustrated by the judicial delays.
> 
> KEN BUCK, WELD COUNTY, COLO. DA: Any time you're dealing with illegal immigration cases or illegal immigrants having committed crimes, there is a concern about individuals leaving the jurisdiction. These particular defendants are highly qualified at assuming other identities, and so I think it's easier for them to pick up and move.
> 
> WIAN: Last week, an existing grand jury indicted five new defendants, clearing they way for arrest warrants in those cases. Prosecutors then requested a separate grand jury to investigate all the cases. Grand juries have a different standard for prosecution, one Buck believes would allow the disputed tax returns. But Mark Silverstein, the Colorado ACLU's legal director, wrote the judge who was considering appointing the grand jury. The letter warns of the tax preparer's planned lawsuit and then says to the judge, "It is unusual for me to write a letter like this but I wanted to provide you with a heads up in case it may inform your decision about whether to convene a grand jury or when to schedule it." Legal experts agree it is unusual, but not necessarily improper.
> 
> (END VIDEOTAPE)
> 
> WIAN: We called Silverstein to ask if the letter was an attempt to persuade the judge not to convene the grand jury if that was the intent, it failed. He agreed not to seat just one, but two grand juries to investigate all 1,300 I.D. theft cases  Lou?
> 
> DOBBS: He can say whatever he wants to. I can't imagine what it would be if it were not an attempt to intimidate the judge with the possibility of legal action.
> 
> WIAN: What was really surprising to me, Lou, when I first read this letter, I thought this was outrageous. But the legal experts I spoke with says it's not necessarily improper. It's just attorneys advocating for their client and this kind of stuff goes on more than we know.
> 
> DOBBS: Well, the fact that he convened not one, but two grand juries tells you why it is unusual, but it obviously backfired in this case. Casey, thank you very much. Casey Wian.




I'm kind of surprised that the USAO in this area didn't take this case federally.


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## Wolfmoon

SW2SILVERQUASI said:


> There's the truth, then there's "statistics". Ravi. I don't think you want the truth. I'm here to tell ya. You already seem to have your mind made up. That sarcasm and inquisitiveness of yours, quite a mix. I live with these " exaggerations" , and they...are quite real. You should try it. You won't like it. Screw statistics. Live the dream, sweetheart.


 
EXACTLY!


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## Ravi

Wolfmoon said:


> EXACTLY!


Totally wussy screen name, dude.


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## Wolfmoon

Ravi said:


> Totally wussy screen name, dude.


 
Sooo, Like I care what you say!  You're on ignore now, so no need to respond.


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

Ravi: Wussy? My dear, I expected better of you than that kind junk. You and Mr.   Agnost hide a  host of Anglo guilt trips by casting aspersions. You don't answer my posts anymore, not that it matters, but I am still here. I still  live in the United States of Shitland, ie, a  Barrio . You people mythologize these forced  ethnic  ghettos as if they are natural part of America, like they  always existed or are perfectly normal. Except none of you heroes actual have to surfer the humiliation of  dealing with even a bare smidgen  of a tiny bit of   all those 12 million plus illegal aliens . Or do ya, pray tell? NO? How curious.  Me thinks thou protest too much. But that's  what pro- illegal folks do so well, bitch, whine and give lectures about intolerance. Just as long as you don't feel the pain and that suffering. Pedantic little lectures from  pseudo intellectuals that  don't know their arse from a hole in the ground. Valuable information, indeed.


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

Before I sign off, I will say this: With all these illegal aliens putting bullets in my humble casa, with all the crime I've witnessed, the best solution I get from these folks (illegal  alien supporters) is....MOVE. Now, that's subtle. It avoids the subject totally, right, Ravi? Get away from the dysfunction, flee, move to the inner sanctum of the fu*king     elitist and buy into their delusional  propaganda. Sorry, no can do, sweat heart. I have scruples and all that. Perhaps, ya all should simply move into a Barrio and see how well all that diversity shit is working. There's an alternative for ya. Then feel free to criticize me  on those grounds, that would be challenging.  Please. Move into a barrio,  live there for ten years, then report back. Si habla Epanol? I hope so, because in this diverse world, they don't need to speak English or follow simple laws. Like, Speed limits, or how many people can  live in two bedroom apartment, or the legality of murder or rape. All laws go out the window if you can ignore immigration law, and that is constant in the barrio. It's just a fact with illegal aliens.  I am long past being shocked by their attitude, but the rest of you better not be, if you value American freedom, that is. That isn't hyperbole, either. Illegal aliens aren't here celebrating FREEDOM, they could care less. $, that's what they seem to want.


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## Ravi

Squishi, I asked you a question way back up the thread and you have made no serious attempt to answer it. Until you do there is no point in continuing this discussion.


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

Squishi? That sounds little condescending. Ravi, If I am not mistaken, I asked you one, too. " Do you live in a Barrio" ? That one, you never responded too. You know my answer. All those Anglo loaded questions of yours, I would love to respond too. I wasn't evading anything, as you seem to imply.   Ask again. I will do my best to answer.


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## Ravi

SW2SILVERQUASI said:


> Squishi? That sounds little condescending. Ravi, If I am not mistaken, I asked you one, too. " Do you live in a Barrio" ? That one, you never responded too. You know my answer. All those Anglo loaded questions of yours, I would love to respond too. I wasn't evading anything, as you seem to imply.   Ask again. I will do my best to answer.



Here you go. I can't see why you characterize it as an anglo loaded question, lol.



> Prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they contribute less than they take and that it would be cost effective to put the country in a bubble.


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

Ravi: My proof is this: You won't dare to even live in a Barrio. These  folks we call "illegal", you call immigrants. Euphemisms aside.  You won't.  Not in a million years, because, you don't have the balls or the commitment. I think, you are afraid of more than the facts. You live within you own comfort zone, that's a bubble you don't dare burst.  Yes? If you want enlightenment, you won't find it  on the Internet. It's something YOU  find yourself.


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## Ravi

SW2SILVERQUASI said:


> Ravi: My proof is this: You won't dare to even live in a Barrio. These  folks we call "illegal", you call immigrants. Euphemisms aside.  You won't.  Not in a million years, because, you don't have the balls or the commitment. I think, you are afraid of more than the facts. You live within you own comfort zone, that's a bubble you don't dare burst.  Yes? If you want enlightenment, you won't find it  on the Internet. It's something YOU  find yourself.


Not sure what you mean by a barrio...but if it is a predominately latin neighborhood I've lived there all my life.

Now, about my question to you...


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

Ravi: You don't know what a barrio is? The fact that term is ambiguous to you, that means something right there. When you are in one, there is NO DOUBT whatsoever. Recent Mexican "immigrants" don't have room for diversity in their vocabulary. They antagonize, or alienate practically everyone other than their own. Now, if you were really living in one, then perhaps you wouldn't feel so....what? Why are you posting on behalf of illegal aliens, anyway? OK, as far as your question goes, let me see...It's a two way street.  "Prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they contribute more than they take." Prove that it is ineffective to enforce immigration laws". You know as well as I how this game works, you cherry pick your "facts" then I contradict you by doing the same. On and on it goes. I hate that game. Here's something else, going back to the "ambiguity" issue.   I doubt that the IRS breaks down revenue they gather according to immigration status, race, or wether you right or left handed.  Also,  I doubt that the government can truly determine how much revenue is generated as opposed to how much is spent on a specific group. And one more rather important point: illegal aliens don't exactly identify themselves to be counted as a group, do they? See, that is sort of the problem, Ravi. They  fraudulently present themselves as something they aren't. They hide in groups of people like them, they hide in Barrios, ( like the kind I live in) and pretend to be Americans. That is the ambiguity that muddies up the waters and makes it hard to determine who is who and what is what. That is why some of us don't like illegals. Now riddle me this, riddle me that : Why can't they quit  the games and immigrate legally? Wouldn't that be more honest and a lot more straight forward?  I asked you that once too, and you never answered THAT either.


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## Ravi

Barrio means different things to different people. I merely wanted you to clarify your meaning. Let's start there and move forward.


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

Ravi: Yes, We should move forward. I answered your questions as directly as I could. This board is about philosophies, lifestyles and life experience. But  above all, it's all opinion. Facts?  well, I wish.  Now, would you like to answer my question? Ya know : Why can't these poor folks just immigrate legally? Seems simple  obvious enough.


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## Agnapostate

Fine. I didn't want to make this a debate about personal characteristics, but that's what you've chosen to do. 

Now that we've heard all about your little "barrio," (which I couldn't find any information about, which suggests that it's rather small and causes me to be dubious of its "barrio" status), I'll say that I live somewhere with a Hispanic/Latino population of more than 90 percent. I'm quite sure that I interact with plenty of illegals on a daily basis. A good friend of mine is technically a Mexican citizen, and is here on an expired student visa. 

Nor am I "tripped up" by any "Anglo guilt." I am not an Anglo. My grandfather was an illegal immigrant from the Mexican state of Chihuahua, and my mother and her family came to Los Angeles from Guatemala City when she was seven years old. I don't know if you call the corner of Third and Union a "barrio," but that's where they lived. Watts, Compton, South Gate...do you even know where these places are?


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

Fine? Is this Agnost or Ravi? That's another Internet phenom I am tired of, multiple  screen names and pretense. Agnost/Ravi, don't presume you know what I have suffered through, you poser. Get a life. Ja ja ja ja. Sound famliar? Swansea, it's  in northeast Denver. You can't find it. Jesus Christ. Don't do me any favors, ya prick. Were DO YOU live ya jackass? I'm all ears.  Redondo beach....?


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## Ravi

SW2SILVERQUASI said:


> Why can't these poor folks just immigrate legally? Seems simple  obvious enough.


They would if given the chance...but our immigration laws are written to allow too few people the time to do it legally.


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## Agnapostate

SW2SILVERQUASI said:


> Fine? Is this Agnost or Ravi? That's another Internet phenom I am tired of, multiple  screen names and pretense. Agnost/Ravi, don't presume you know what I have suffered through, you poser. Get a life. Ja ja ja ja. Sound famliar? Swansea, it's  in northeast Denver. You can't find it. Jesus Christ. Don't do me any favors, ya prick. Were DO YOU live ya jackass? I'm all ears.  Redondo beach....?



What the hell?


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

Aganost: "What the hell? Indeed. Let's leave it at that. As for Ravi: Our laws are not written to reflect the needs of MEXICO. Sorry, just because they want in a New York minute doesn't mean we have to accommodate them . That, Ravi is no reason, it's an excuse. The tail doesn't wag the dog, no matter how bad it wants to.


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## Agnapostate

What is this you're talking about, this Agnost/Ravi?


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

Agnost: There is a particularly vexing phenomena on the Internet. One person posting on a message board with multiple screen names. I don't know how possible it is to do here.  After a while, when I read multiple screen names with the  same motif's, I presume that is the case. THAT is what I was referring too. I am glad you aren't familiar with it, it's a particularly corrupting influence on any board. I apologize if that is not the case, but,  I will remain a little skeptical.  People can be damned good liars. Just like illegal aliens.


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## Agnapostate

So...people with similar opinions are automatically sock puppets...


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

Agnost, Some people are jerks, and they happen to coincide with either your our my viewpoint. That, is an unfortunate fact . It's neither here, nor there. People also use multiple screen names. It's deceptive plain pure and simple. It's real, and it's how some folks deal with issues.  It was unfair for me to make accusations.  I suppose that makes me the jerk here...I apologize.


----------



## Lita456

SW2SILVERQUASI said:


> Aganost: "What the hell? Indeed. Let's leave it at that. As for Ravi: Our laws are not written to reflect the needs of MEXICO. Sorry, just because they want in a New York minute doesn't mean we have to accommodate them . That, Ravi is no reason, it's an excuse. The tail doesn't wag the dog, no matter how bad it wants to.




Our laws cannot cover the influx of so many people - the laws need to be changed - pronto!


----------



## Sky Dancer

In terms of attitude about how to solve the immigration problem it sure makes a difference where you live.  If you don't live near the Mexican border, near a large influx of illegal immigrants you're more likely to feel the anti-immigrant camp is alarmist.


----------



## SW2SILVERQUASI

Our laws cannot cover the influx of so many people - the laws need to be changed - pronto![/QUOTE]

Our laws are not based on the number of people that ignore them.  In that case, we should make murder or larceny legal, or get rid of all those pesky safety laws and abolish OSHA or the EPA. What the heck. Two wrongs  make a right these days. Is what you mean?


----------



## Sky Dancer

It's not going to happen anytime soon.  If I were you, I'd move.


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## Agnapostate

The abolition of NAFTA continues to be a critical component in ending the massive influx.


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## SW2SILVERQUASI

Thank for the advice. I am not going anywhere.  That isn't going to happen ,anytime soon. If you were me, you wouldn't be so flippant. "Yes we can...WHAT?"


----------



## SW2SILVERQUASI

Jalu: I speak for myself. I am not card carrying conformist to the "bad guys" camp, as you put it. I am one person with one point of view, just like the rest of you.  I make mistakes, I learn from them, I move on from that. But I don't side with folks that constantly ignore American/international immigration laws. Now, that one thing about ya'all I don't understand, why the hell you folks feel so compelled to side with illegal aliens? Pretend Mexico was an island in the middle of the pacific. No convenient   illegal swimming a little river to economic nirvana. No, they would have to actually play that immigration game  by the rules.  The inconvenient truth here is that we share a boarder. And it's "EASIER" to sneak in that immigrate.  So, that is the difference between IMMIGRANT and an illegal alien.


----------



## Wolfmoon

Lita456 said:


> SW2SILVERQUASI said:
> 
> 
> 
> Aganost: "What the hell? Indeed. Let's leave it at that. As for Ravi: Our laws are not written to reflect the needs of MEXICO. Sorry, just because they want in a New York minute doesn't mean we have to accommodate them . That, Ravi is no reason, it's an excuse. The tail doesn't wag the dog, no matter how bad it wants to.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Our laws cannot cover the influx of so many people - the laws need to be changed - pronto!
Click to expand...

 
*There's nothing wrong with our laws.  Other than, the laws already on the books need to be enforced.*


----------

