# WACO



## Desperado

Did anyone watch the WACO mini series on the Paramount (Spike) network?
To me it it made the  Branch Davidians and David Koresh look like the victims of an out of control
 federal law enforcement agents, specifically the ATF and the FBI.


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## SassyIrishLass

Dark day when innocent children die like that. Our government should be ashamed


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## Penelope

Desperado said:


> Did anyone watch the WACO mini series on the Paramount (Spike) network?
> To me it it made the  Branch Davidians and David Koresh look like the victims of an out of control
> federal law enforcement agents, specifically the ATF and the FBI.



He was a nutcase, and they had plenty of time to escape and they started the fire, its all on them.  Wacko's with a pedophile leader and a storehouse of weapons.


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## Penelope

SassyIrishLass said:


> Dark day when innocent children die like that. Our government should be ashamed



Blame that on the zealot end of time Christians.


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## Desperado

Penelope said:


> SassyIrishLass said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dark day when innocent children die like that. Our government should be ashamed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Blame that on the zealot end of time Christians.
Click to expand...

Not exactly the way it was portrayed.


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## SassyIrishLass

Penelope said:


> SassyIrishLass said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dark day when innocent children die like that. Our government should be ashamed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Blame that on the zealot end of time Christians.
Click to expand...


Obviously yet another topic you are clueless about. Moron


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## Wuwei

Desperado said:


> Did anyone watch the WACO mini series on the Paramount (Spike) network?
> To me it it made the Branch Davidians and David Koresh look like the victims of an out of control
> federal law enforcement agents, specifically the ATF and the FBI.


I agree. Yes David was a bit of a whacko. His following had their common sense compromised. The FBI knew this but used a well known dangerous method to get them out which resulted in fire. I can understand why the FBI would claim Davidians started the fire. They were saving their ass. Nevertheless it was a shameful lie.


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## hunarcy

SassyIrishLass said:


> Dark day when innocent children die like that. Our government should be ashamed



The only children killed were those fathered by Koresh.  I don't know what that means, but it doesn't feel innocent to me.


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## SassyIrishLass

hunarcy said:


> SassyIrishLass said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dark day when innocent children die like that. Our government should be ashamed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The only children killed were those fathered by Koresh.  I don't know what that means, but it doesn't feel innocent to me.
Click to expand...


Children are children. The government had them surrounded and under siege, they were not going anywhere. Poor poor judgement on Reno's part


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## Wuwei

hunarcy said:


> The only children killed were those fathered by Koresh. I don't know what that means, but it doesn't feel innocent to me.


David was not innocent, but the children were.


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## Moonglow

Desperado said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SassyIrishLass said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dark day when innocent children die like that. Our government should be ashamed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Blame that on the zealot end of time Christians.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not exactly the way it was portrayed.
Click to expand...

Art doesn't always reflect reality.


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## Wuwei

SassyIrishLass said:


> Children are children. The government had them surrounded and under siege, they were not going anywhere. Poor poor judgement on Reno's part


Reno took the FBI agent's advice. He is the one at fault. Reno most likely was not aware of the fire dangers of the gas.


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## hunarcy

SassyIrishLass said:


> hunarcy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SassyIrishLass said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dark day when innocent children die like that. Our government should be ashamed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The only children killed were those fathered by Koresh.  I don't know what that means, but it doesn't feel innocent to me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Children are children. The government had them surrounded and under siege, they were not going anywhere. Poor poor judgement on Reno's part
Click to expand...


I don't disagree with that.  It's just...unsettling.


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## hunarcy

Wuwei said:


> hunarcy said:
> 
> 
> 
> The only children killed were those fathered by Koresh. I don't know what that means, but it doesn't feel innocent to me.
> 
> 
> 
> David was not innocent, but the children were.
Click to expand...


You are correct.


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## Wuwei

Moonglow said:


> Art doesn't always reflect reality.


That point is well taken. However the series has a follow-on. Where the survivors will be interviewed. I'm sure they will verify the story line, because it most likely came from the survivors.


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## Moonglow

Wuwei said:


> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Art doesn't always reflect reality.
> 
> 
> 
> That point is well taken. However the series has a follow-on. Where the survivors will be interviewed. I'm sure they will verify the story line, because it most likely came from the survivors.
Click to expand...

Yet artistic license is always the option used...


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## Desperado

The FBI used tear gas and numerous times prior to this tear gas resulted in fires.
The FBI knew this was a possibiliity when they used it


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## Wuwei

Moonglow said:


> Yet artistic license is always the option used...


No doubt artistic license was used on private conversations between people that didn't survive, but the conversations with the negotiator are part of the record and give credence to the whole picture.


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## MikeK

Desperado said:


> Did anyone watch the WACO mini series on the Paramount (Spike) network?
> To me it it made the  Branch Davidians and David Koresh look like the victims of an out of control
> federal law enforcement agents, specifically the ATF and the FBI.


And that's exactly what they were. 

That situation was handled wrongfully from beginning to end.  There was no way to justify anything the ATF and the FBI/HRT (_"Hostage Rescue" Team_) did there.  Numerous books have been written about the Waco massacre but the most accurate and carefully documented of the lot is, *The Ashes of Waco -- An Investigation,* by Dick Reavis, who had been David Koresh's lawyer.  This book contains a lot of important, well-documented facts which were not revealed in the tv series and I highly recommend it to anyone who wishes the learn the full truth about the most egregious crime ever perpetrated by the U.S. Government against peaceful citizens.


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## hunarcy

Wuwei said:


> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Art doesn't always reflect reality.
> 
> 
> 
> That point is well taken. However the series has a follow-on. Where the survivors will be interviewed. I'm sure they will verify the story line, because it most likely came from the survivors.
Click to expand...


I'd guess most of the others are in prison.  5 Each Get 40 Years In Waco Case


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## Rambunctious

Penelope said:


> He was a nutcase, and they had plenty of time to escape and they started the fire, its all on them. Wacko's with a pedophile leader and a storehouse of weapons


They never should have tried to confront him in his compound...he went to town several times a month but Reno wanted it all on national TV...The amazing thing is that women was allowed to stay on as AG...
It'a amazing what dems can get away with compared to Trump...Thanks Lamestream media...


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## MikeK

Penelope said:


> He was a nutcase, and they had plenty of time to escape and they started the fire, its all on them.  Wacko's with a pedophile leader and a storehouse of weapons.


If Koresh was a pedophile he could easily have been  arrested and properly prosecuted.  

As for the "storehouse of weapons," eight of the Davidians, including Koresh, held valid Federal Firearms Dealer licenses and the Davidians were actively engaged in a legitimate, tax-paying, mail-order firearms business.  The "storehouse" you refer to was in fact an _inventory._ 

What you need to understand is the FBI/HRT *had cause to believe* Koresh was mentally unstable.  *They knew* he had repeatedly threatened to burn the compound down if the agents attempted to breach and enter.  *They knew* there were dozens of helpless children in the compound.  Yet knowing all that, they proceeded to knock the walls down with an Army tank-retriever.


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## Penelope

SassyIrishLass said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SassyIrishLass said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dark day when innocent children die like that. Our government should be ashamed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Blame that on the zealot end of time Christians.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Obviously yet another topic you are clueless about. Moron
Click to expand...


I saw the episodes and  I remember when it happened. They were followers of a nutcase, end of time, rapture nut and to be frank anyone who could be hypnotized by a pedophile nutcase like that were crazy to begin with.  They let their kids shoot weapons and let their daughters have sex and children with the new Savior of their cult.


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## Penelope

Desperado said:


> The FBI used tear gas and numerous times prior to this tear gas resulted in fires.
> The FBI knew this was a possibiliity when they used it



Tear gas does not cause fires , they caused the fires.  They committed suicide.
DEATH IN WACO: The Tear Gas; Chemical Isn't Meant to Cause Fire


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## Penelope

MikeK said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> He was a nutcase, and they had plenty of time to escape and they started the fire, its all on them.  Wacko's with a pedophile leader and a storehouse of weapons.
> 
> 
> 
> If Koresh was a pedophile he could easily have been  arrested and properly prosecuted.
> 
> As for the "storehouse of weapons," eight of the Davidians, including Koresh, held valid Federal Firearms Dealer licenses and the Davidians were actively engaged in a legitimate, tax-paying, mail-order firearms business.  The "storehouse" you refer to was in fact an _inventory._
> 
> What you need to understand is the FBI/HRT *had cause to believe* Koresh was mentally unstable.  *They knew* he had repeatedly threatened to burn the compound down if the agents attempted to breach and enter.  *They knew* there were dozens of helpless children in the compound.  Yet knowing all that, they proceeded to knock the walls down with an Army tank-retriever.
Click to expand...





Rambunctious said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> He was a nutcase, and they had plenty of time to escape and they started the fire, its all on them. Wacko's with a pedophile leader and a storehouse of weapons
> 
> 
> 
> They never should have tried to confront him in his compound...he went to town several times a month but Reno wanted it all on national TV...The amazing thing is that women was allowed to stay on as AG...
> It'a amazing what dems can get away with compared to Trump...Thanks Lamestream media...
Click to expand...


And its was amazing what the Bundies got away with , twice.  They had over 50 days to come out. They decided to die instead of surrender.


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## MikeK

Penelope said:


> I saw the episodes and  I remember when it happened. They were followers of a nutcase, end of time, rapture nut and to be frank anyone who could be hypnotized by a pedophile nutcase like that were crazy to begin with.  They let their kids shoot weapons and let their daughters have sex and children with the new Savior of their cult.


Even if everything you're alleging is true, what about the 21 helpless children, some as young as two -- little tots?  The agents _knew_ those kids were in there and couldn't help themselves, _they knew_ Koresh had threatened to set fire if an attempt was made to break in, and _they knew_ Koresh was thought to be insanely fanatical.  Yet, knowing all that, they went ahead and began breaking the walls down.

Is that what you would have done?  If not, why not?


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## MikeK

Penelope said:


> And its was amazing what the Bundies got away with , twice.  They had over 50 days to come out. They decided to die instead of surrender.


What do the Bundys have to do with this?


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## MikeK

Rambunctious said:


> They never should have tried to confront him in his compound...he went to town several times a month but Reno wanted it all on national TV...The amazing thing is that women was allowed to stay on as AG...
> It'a amazing what dems can get away with compared to Trump...Thanks Lamestream media...


You're absolutely right.  I agree with everything you've said, especially your criticism of Janet Reno, a totally incompetent puppet of the criminally degenerate Bill Clinton.  

But I wish to correct one item in your commentary; Koresh went to town several times each _week,_ not each month.  He went mainly to the Post Office to ship or receive packages and retrieve mail from the Davidians' gun business P.O. box.  He could have been arrested on any of those days.


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## LA RAM FAN

Penelope said:


> Desperado said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did anyone watch the WACO mini series on the Paramount (Spike) network?
> To me it it made the  Branch Davidians and David Koresh look like the victims of an out of control
> federal law enforcement agents, specifically the ATF and the FBI.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He was a nutcase, and they had plenty of time to escape and they started the fire, its all on them.  Wacko's with a pedophile leader and a storehouse of weapons.
Click to expand...




SassyIrishLass said:


> hunarcy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SassyIrishLass said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dark day when innocent children die like that. Our government should be ashamed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The only children killed were those fathered by Koresh.  I don't know what that means, but it doesn't feel innocent to me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Children are children. The government had them surrounded and under siege, they were not going anywhere. Poor poor judgement on Reno's part
Click to expand...


Reno is an evil nazi.same as clinton who she answered to,killing children is something she gets and GOT  a joy out of just like the clintons do.The clintons were having a party at the white house laughing about the whole damn thing at the time.

Obviously yet another topic you are clueless about. Moron

you nailed it.


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## LA RAM FAN

SassyIrishLass said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SassyIrishLass said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dark day when innocent children die like that. Our government should be ashamed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Blame that on the zealot end of time Christians.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Obviously yet another topic you are clueless about. Moron
Click to expand...


Uh yeah she is right,you are totally clueless.Get your facts straight,you obviously got this news from the CIA controlled MSM news and Bill I NEVER HAD SEX WITH THIS WOMAN Clinton himself.

You did not watch the documentary obviously WACO Rules of enagagement. 

Clinton was caught lying TWICE to the american people.

Lie#1
He went on to say-we did not start the fires,the davidians stared the fires.complets BS.In the video you see a tank bulldozing the compound with a flame thrower mounted shooting fire onto the compound.

Lie#2

He THEN said-we did not fire at them,they fired at us but we never fired back. that was proven alie as well with footage that showed a helicopter with a machine gunner firing with a machine gun at the compound.

PLUS survivors he came out said some of them came out with their hands in the air yelling dont shoot and they shot them ANYWAYS.


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## LA RAM FAN

Desperado said:


> Did anyone watch the WACO mini series on the Paramount (Spike) network?
> To me it it made the  Branch Davidians and David Koresh look like the victims of an out of control
> federal law enforcement agents, specifically the ATF and the FBI.



yeah have you seen WACO RULES OF ENGAGEMENT. it pretty much exposes the governments lies as well.


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## LA RAM FAN

Penelope said:


> Desperado said:
> 
> 
> 
> The FBI used tear gas and numerous times prior to this tear gas resulted in fires.
> The FBI knew this was a possibiliity when they used it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tear gas does not cause fires , they caused the fires.  They committed suicide.
> DEATH IN WACO: The Tear Gas; Chemical Isn't Meant to Cause Fire
Click to expand...


Uh i just exposed that fraud BS link of yours.

OH and this pic exposes that fraud lying link as well.


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## LA RAM FAN

Desperado said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SassyIrishLass said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dark day when innocent children die like that. Our government should be ashamed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Blame that on the zealot end of time Christians.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not exactly the way it was portrayed.
Click to expand...


yes she has been brainwashed by the CIA media,she needs to a take a few hours to watch these video this is what really happened.


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## Crixus

Desperado said:


> Did anyone watch the WACO mini series on the Paramount (Spike) network?
> To me it it made the  Branch Davidians and David Koresh look like the victims of an out of control
> federal law enforcement agents, specifically the ATF and the FBI.




Thanks for the review. I take it you recommend it then?


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## Desperado

MikeK said:


> Rambunctious said:
> 
> 
> 
> They never should have tried to confront him in his compound...he went to town several times a month but Reno wanted it all on national TV...The amazing thing is that women was allowed to stay on as AG...
> It'a amazing what dems can get away with compared to Trump...Thanks Lamestream media...
> 
> 
> 
> You're absolutely right.  I agree with everything you've said, especially your criticism of Janet Reno, a totally incompetent puppet of the criminally degenerate Bill Clinton.
> 
> But I wish to correct one item in your commentary; Koresh went to town several times each _week,_ not each month.  He went mainly to the Post Office to ship or receive packages and retrieve mail from the Davidians' gun business P.O. box.  He could have been arrested on any of those days.
Click to expand...




Crixus said:


> Desperado said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did anyone watch the WACO mini series on the Paramount (Spike) network?
> To me it it made the  Branch Davidians and David Koresh look like the victims of an out of control
> federal law enforcement agents, specifically the ATF and the FBI.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the review. I take it you recommend it then?
Click to expand...

Yes the mini series was very interesting and caused me to look at Waco in a whole new light


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## Crixus

Desperado said:


> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rambunctious said:
> 
> 
> 
> They never should have tried to confront him in his compound...he went to town several times a month but Reno wanted it all on national TV...The amazing thing is that women was allowed to stay on as AG...
> It'a amazing what dems can get away with compared to Trump...Thanks Lamestream media...
> 
> 
> 
> You're absolutely right.  I agree with everything you've said, especially your criticism of Janet Reno, a totally incompetent puppet of the criminally degenerate Bill Clinton.
> 
> But I wish to correct one item in your commentary; Koresh went to town several times each _week,_ not each month.  He went mainly to the Post Office to ship or receive packages and retrieve mail from the Davidians' gun business P.O. box.  He could have been arrested on any of those days.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Crixus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Desperado said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did anyone watch the WACO mini series on the Paramount (Spike) network?
> To me it it made the  Branch Davidians and David Koresh look like the victims of an out of control
> federal law enforcement agents, specifically the ATF and the FBI.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the review. I take it you recommend it then?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes the mini series was very interesting and caused me to look at Waco in a whole new light
Click to expand...



Thanks. I’ll watch after work tomorrow.


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## harmonica

did they not have a warrant?
people just can't say no to warrants 
and Koresh had all the time to give up
--the critical aspect here is Koresh was a nutjob.....he should've given up, but he was wacko--undeniable


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## bodecea

Not surprised to see those who have no issue with catholic priest pedophiles going all in with pedophile David Koresh.....what's a little kid diddling when it's religious, eh?


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## Synthaholic

SassyIrishLass said:


> Dark day when innocent children die like that. Our government should be ashamed


God bless Janet Reno.


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## Synthaholic

Clinton and Reno showed much more patience than those criminals deserved.

In this country, when the lawful authorities tell you to come out with your hands up you DO IT, then hire a lawyer.

Anything else will rightly get you killed.  You've been warned.


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## Hossfly

Penelope said:


> Desperado said:
> 
> 
> 
> The FBI used tear gas and numerous times prior to this tear gas resulted in fires.
> The FBI knew this was a possibiliity when they used it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tear gas does not cause fires , they caused the fires.  They committed suicide.
> DEATH IN WACO: The Tear Gas; Chemical Isn't Meant to Cause Fire
Click to expand...

Wrongo.  It's true that tear gas doesn't start fires but the tear gas canister creates tremendous heat to make the chemicals hot enough to make smoke that billows out of the canister. If it lands on something flammable it will create a fire.That's what happened at Waco.


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## MikeK

Desperado said:


> Yes the mini series was very interesting and caused me to look at Waco in a whole new light


Read Dick Reavis' book, _The Ashes of Waco,_ and that light will get even brighter.

There are many facts which were not revealed in the tv series that Reavis, who was Koresh's lawyer, has carefully researched and documented in his book.   One of the most important of those repressed facts is how the agents refused to allow the Press to have any contact whatsoever with the Davidians -- even via the  phone line over which Koresh had virtually begged to speak with reporters, a fact which blows a hole in the assertion that the Press was excluded for their own protection.  

FBI established a supposedly "safe" area for the Media which was one full mile away from the compound and they physically restrained the Press from moving any closer -- even though the reporters were willing to assume full responsibility for their personal safety.  One reporter attempted to sneak past the constraint and was arrested.  Simply stated, through this authoritarian tactic the public was deprived of the truth via the same methods used by Pinochet in Chile, Stalin in Russia, Pahlavi in Iran, and various other tyrannical dictators.  This was a clear violation of the First Amendment but it was never mentioned in the tv series.


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## MikeK

harmonica said:


> did they not have a warrant?
> people just can't say no to warrants
> and Koresh had all the time to give up
> --the critical aspect here is Koresh was a nutjob.....he should've given up, but he was wacko--undeniable


Even if all the accusations made against Koresh are true, the fact remains that Koresh was known to the Federal agents to be mentally unstable, and that he vowed to set fire to the compound if the agents attempted to break in, and that there were 21 helpless children in that compound.  The agents _knew_ all that -- yet they started breaking the walls down with an Army tank.  

What have you to say about that?


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## harmonica

MikeK said:


> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> did they not have a warrant?
> people just can't say no to warrants
> and Koresh had all the time to give up
> --the critical aspect here is Koresh was a nutjob.....he should've given up, but he was wacko--undeniable
> 
> 
> 
> Even if all the accusations made against Koresh are true, the fact remains that Koresh was known to the Federal agents to be mentally unstable, and that he vowed to set fire to the compound if the agents attempted to break in, and that there were 21 helpless children in that compound.  The agents _knew_ all that -- yet they started breaking the walls down with an Army tank.
> 
> What have you to say about that?
Click to expand...

that's Koresh's fault then--they gave him how much time to surrender??
he was a wacko---
you surrender when the police tell you to--simple...if you don't it's your fault when you die
THAT"S what I have to say 

what don't you understand about a warrant???


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## LA RAM FAN

Synthaholic said:


> SassyIrishLass said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dark day when innocent children die like that. Our government should be ashamed
> 
> 
> 
> God bless Janet Reno.
Click to expand...


so you are telling us you are a fan of people murdering women and children and burning them to death? uhhh okay.


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## LA RAM FAN

hunarcy said:


> Wuwei said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Art doesn't always reflect reality.
> 
> 
> 
> That point is well taken. However the series has a follow-on. Where the survivors will be interviewed. I'm sure they will verify the story line, because it most likely came from the survivors.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'd guess most of the others are in prison.  5 Each Get 40 Years In Waco Case
Click to expand...


as always is the case in this fucked up world,the innocent go to jail and the REAL killers Clinton,Gore,Reno,the FBI and the ATF get off scott free for murdering women and children.


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## LA RAM FAN

MikeK said:


> Rambunctious said:
> 
> 
> 
> They never should have tried to confront him in his compound...he went to town several times a month but Reno wanted it all on national TV...The amazing thing is that women was allowed to stay on as AG...
> It'a amazing what dems can get away with compared to Trump...Thanks Lamestream media...
> 
> 
> 
> You're absolutely right.  I agree with everything you've said, especially your criticism of Janet Reno, a totally incompetent puppet of the criminally degenerate Bill Clinton.
> 
> But I wish to correct one item in your commentary; Koresh went to town several times each _week,_ not each month.  He went mainly to the Post Office to ship or receive packages and retrieve mail from the Davidians' gun business P.O. box.  He could have been arrested on any of those days.
Click to expand...


a FACT Penelope is obviously not aware of how the ATF and FBI could EASILY have avoided murdering all those people including women and children.


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## LA RAM FAN

Synthaholic said:


> Clinton and Reno showed much more patience than those criminals deserved.
> 
> In this country, when the lawful authorities tell you to come out with your hands up you DO IT, then hire a lawyer.
> 
> Anything else will rightly get you killed.  You've been warned.



Uh obviously you missed the part earlier where someone mentioned Koresh went to the grocery store and post office  everyday while the authorities were there for over a month where they could easily have apprehended him then if they wanted and avoided the murdering women and children and yet you say this god bless janet reno fucking crap?


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## LA RAM FAN

MikeK said:


> Desperado said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes the mini series was very interesting and caused me to look at Waco in a whole new light
> 
> 
> 
> Read Dick Reavis' book, _The Ashes of Waco,_ and that light will get even brighter.
> 
> There are many facts which were not revealed in the tv series that Reavis, who was Koresh's lawyer, has carefully researched and documented in his book.   One of the most important of those repressed facts is how the agents refused to allow the Press to have any contact whatsoever with the Davidians -- even via the  phone line over which Koresh had virtually begged to speak with reporters, a fact which blows a hole in the assertion that the Press was excluded for their own protection.
> 
> FBI established a supposedly "safe" area for the Media which was one full mile away from the compound and they physically restrained the Press from moving any closer -- even though the reporters were willing to assume full responsibility for their personal safety.  One reporter attempted to sneak past the constraint and was arrested.  Simply stated, through this authoritarian tactic the public was deprived of the truth via the same methods used by Pinochet in Chile, Stalin in Russia, Pahlavi in Iran, and various other tyrannical dictators.  This was a clear violation of the First Amendment but it was never mentioned in the tv series.
Click to expand...



Thanks for the information,Even I was not aware of those facts you mentioned.I will for sure have to try and find that book. you mentioned The Ashes of Waco. Its sad that a book like that never gets to presented in a court of law of law system that is not corrupt.If it could,the real killers i mentioned would be serving life sentences.

 Did you notice ever since you made all these excellent informative posts of how  Reno,Clinton,the FBI,and ATF committed treason and murdered women and children,that the people defendening the official version of the governments in this case harmonica,penelope and syntholic have all turned tail and ran off and  have not come back after you took them to school that Reno and Clinton murdered women and children that day?

Looks like the cat has got their tongue.


The cat also got their tongue because they have been speechless ever since i posted these two videos here earlier that also prove that Reno and Clinton are murderers of innocent women and children.


----------



## bodecea

MikeK said:


> Desperado said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes the mini series was very interesting and caused me to look at Waco in a whole new light
> 
> 
> 
> Read Dick Reavis' book, _The Ashes of Waco,_ and that light will get even brighter.
> 
> There are many facts which were not revealed in the tv series that Reavis, who was Koresh's lawyer, has carefully researched and documented in his book.   One of the most important of those repressed facts is how the agents refused to allow the Press to have any contact whatsoever with the Davidians -- even via the  phone line over which Koresh had virtually begged to speak with reporters, a fact which blows a hole in the assertion that the Press was excluded for their own protection.
> 
> FBI established a supposedly "safe" area for the Media which was one full mile away from the compound and they physically restrained the Press from moving any closer -- even though the reporters were willing to assume full responsibility for their personal safety.  One reporter attempted to sneak past the constraint and was arrested.  Simply stated, through this authoritarian tactic the public was deprived of the truth via the same methods used by Pinochet in Chile, Stalin in Russia, Pahlavi in Iran, and various other tyrannical dictators.  This was a clear violation of the First Amendment but it was never mentioned in the tv series.
Click to expand...

Koresh's lawyer, eh?


----------



## LA RAM FAN

Bodecca is trolling  as always,^ He cant counter any of the evidence that Mike K presented or the two videos in that last post of mine so him being the chickenshit troll he is unable to admit defeat,he posts a smiley.


----------



## LA RAM FAN

bodecea said:


> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Desperado said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes the mini series was very interesting and caused me to look at Waco in a whole new light
> 
> 
> 
> Read Dick Reavis' book, _The Ashes of Waco,_ and that light will get even brighter.
> 
> There are many facts which were not revealed in the tv series that Reavis, who was Koresh's lawyer, has carefully researched and documented in his book.   One of the most important of those repressed facts is how the agents refused to allow the Press to have any contact whatsoever with the Davidians -- even via the  phone line over which Koresh had virtually begged to speak with reporters, a fact which blows a hole in the assertion that the Press was excluded for their own protection.
> 
> FBI established a supposedly "safe" area for the Media which was one full mile away from the compound and they physically restrained the Press from moving any closer -- even though the reporters were willing to assume full responsibility for their personal safety.  One reporter attempted to sneak past the constraint and was arrested.  Simply stated, through this authoritarian tactic the public was deprived of the truth via the same methods used by Pinochet in Chile, Stalin in Russia, Pahlavi in Iran, and various other tyrannical dictators.  This was a clear violation of the First Amendment but it was never mentioned in the tv series.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Koresh's lawyer, eh?
Click to expand...

troll eh


----------



## jon_berzerk

Desperado said:


> Did anyone watch the WACO mini series on the Paramount (Spike) network?
> To me it it made the  Branch Davidians and David Koresh look like the victims of an out of control
> federal law enforcement agents, specifically the ATF and the FBI.



that is probably closer to the truth 

after the government fuck up at ruby ridge 

the government was looking for a  easy fix to their bad publicity 

they figured if they could stop this "evil and dangerous Cult" 

and march out a bunch of kids they "saved" on live tv things would be great 

instead they torched a bunch of kids   and murdered several adults


----------



## MikeK

bodecea said:


> Koresh's lawyer, eh?


Yes.  Koresh's lawyer.  

If you believe that means his commentary and opinions are automatically unreliable you need to read his book, in which he anticipates skepticism and carefully documents everything that might be regarded as doubtful.  He doesn't expect the reader to take his word for anything.  

If you wish to know the full, unadulterated truth about what happened at Waco, read Mr. Reavis' book, _The Ashes of Waco._


----------



## LA RAM FAN

MikeK said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> Koresh's lawyer, eh?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.  Koresh's lawyer.
> 
> If you believe that means his commentary and opinions are automatically unreliable you need to read his book, in which he anticipates skepticism and carefully documents everything that might be regarded as doubtful.  He doesn't expect the reader to take his word for anything.
> 
> If you wish to know the full, unadulterated truth about what happened at Waco, read Mr. Reavis' book, _The Ashes of Waco._
Click to expand...


He wont read it,this troll only sees what he wants to see.He is in denial mode that our government is staging false flag shootings for example like vegas,ect,ect.


----------



## MikeK

harmonica said:


> that's Koresh's fault then--they gave him how much time to surrender??
> 
> he was a wacko---
> 
> you surrender when the police tell you to--simple...if you don't it's your fault when you die
> THAT"S what I have to say
> 
> what don't you understand about a warrant???


I don't know what "wacko" means, but I do know the government agents were fully aware that David Koresh  was believed to be schizophrenic and dangerously fanatical, and that there were 21 helpless children under his control in that compound, and that he had threatened to set fire to the compound if the agents attempted to break in.  

So in view of those circumstances what I don't understand is how even the most compulsively degenerate and fanatical authoritarian personality could be concerned about the relative importance of a warrant.


----------



## harmonica

MikeK said:


> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> that's Koresh's fault then--they gave him how much time to surrender??
> 
> he was a wacko---
> 
> you surrender when the police tell you to--simple...if you don't it's your fault when you die
> THAT"S what I have to say
> 
> what don't you understand about a warrant???
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know what "wacko" means, but I do know the government agents were fully aware that David Koresh  was believed to be schizophrenic and dangerously fanatical, and that there were 21 helpless children under his control in that compound, and that he had threatened to set fire to the compound if the agents attempted to break in.
> 
> So in view of those circumstances what I don't understand is how even the most compulsively degenerate and fanatical authoritarian personality could be concerned about the relative importance of a warrant.
Click to expand...

so if he is crazy/etc--he is at least partially responsible
he is initially responsible for being a wacko/not complying

it's like this ''cops shooting UNARMED blackmen''/criminals/dangerous criminals/etc crap.....the criminal is ultimately responsible:
1. they initiate the problem
2. they don't comply
3. if kids are there or not, irrelevant because of 1 and 2


----------



## MikeK

LA RAM FAN said:


> as always is the case in this fucked up world,the innocent go to jail and the REAL killers Clinton,Gore,Reno,the FBI and the ATF get off scott free for murdering women and children.


While Clinton, Gore, Reno and the ATF deserve all the criticism and condemnation directed at them for their respective participation in the Waco massacre it is important to call attention to the truth -- which is *the ordinary FBI has been undeservedly censured.*  The fact is the FBI was brought in to replace the ATF when its incompetence became apparent and none of those ordinary FBI agents who attended the 51 day standoff ever approved of provoking Koresh.  In fact they strongly opposed it.

It was the FBI's notorious HRT, _Hostage Rescue Team,_ the FBI's version of _S.W.A.T._, the same unit responsible for killing Randy Weaver's wife during the aborted _Ruby Ridge_ raid, that organized, promoted, and actually carried out the break-in at Waco that resulted in the fatal fire.  So it is not the FBI, per se, which is responsible for the Waco massacre, but the FBI's _Hostage Rescue Team._


----------



## Synthaholic

LA RAM FAN said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SassyIrishLass said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dark day when innocent children die like that. Our government should be ashamed
> 
> 
> 
> God bless Janet Reno.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> so you are telling us you are a fan of people murdering women and children and burning them to death? uhhh okay.
Click to expand...

Law and order, son. Those people had a choice to live and they went the other way.


----------



## Synthaholic

LA RAM FAN said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Clinton and Reno showed much more patience than those criminals deserved.
> 
> In this country, when the lawful authorities tell you to come out with your hands up you DO IT, then hire a lawyer.
> 
> Anything else will rightly get you killed.  You've been warned.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uh obviously you missed the part earlier where someone mentioned Koresh went to the grocery store and post office  everyday while the authorities were there for over a month where they could easily have apprehended him then if they wanted and avoided the murdering women and children and yet you say this god bless janet reno fucking crap?
Click to expand...

Irrelevant. When they DID show up to arrest him he should have complied and hired a lawyer.  He decided to fight the FBI and ATF. That got him dead.


----------



## Synthaholic

MikeK said:


> Clinton, Gore, Reno


What is: law and order heroes in the United States, Alex.


----------



## JoeB131

SassyIrishLass said:


> Dark day when innocent children die like that. Our government should be ashamed




What as sad was that all these people followed a crazy person to their deaths and took their kids with them.  



SassyIrishLass said:


> Children are children. The government had them surrounded and under siege, they were not going anywhere. Poor poor judgement on Reno's part



But what were the other alternatives?  Let them get away with murdering 4 ATF agents? 



Wuwei said:


> I agree. Yes David was a bit of a whacko. His following had their common sense compromised. The FBI knew this but used a well known dangerous method to get them out which resulted in fire. I can understand why the FBI would claim Davidians started the fire. They were saving their ass. Nevertheless it was a shameful lie.



Except four investigations all concluded that the Davidians started the fires.  

Now, the FBI did show a lot of really bad judgement, including the use of psyops to make the crazies a little crazier.  

at the end of the day, though, the Davidians brought this on themselves. 

I do find it amusing that the same right wingers who justify excessive force by police officers against black folks selling illegal cigarettes or playing with toys in parks are the ones who think that these thug cultists who sold illegal guns and molested kids were the victims here.


----------



## Michelle420

Desperado said:


> Did anyone watch the WACO mini series on the Paramount (Spike) network?
> To me it it made the  Branch Davidians and David Koresh look like the victims of an out of control
> federal law enforcement agents, specifically the ATF and the FBI.



I haven't seen it. I will have to search for it and record it. Sounds interesting.


----------



## Crixus

harmonica said:


> did they not have a warrant?
> people just can't say no to warrants
> and Koresh had all the time to give up
> --the critical aspect here is Koresh was a nutjob.....he should've given up, but he was wacko--undeniable




I lived tiger that way as a teen. One thing that about everyone said is that local law enforcement knew all about David koresh. They simply could have had a sheriff deputy say “ hay David, can you come in for few and talk”? I also remember many said the ATF was trying to build a reputation and get its combat chops. It’s also undeniable that the US Govt said they did it wrong and had to cough up money to the people who survived. What ever you think of the cult the feds pooched it.


----------



## Crixus

JoeB131 said:


> SassyIrishLass said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dark day when innocent children die like that. Our government should be ashamed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What as sad was that all these people followed a crazy person to their deaths and took their kids with them.
> 
> 
> 
> SassyIrishLass said:
> 
> 
> 
> Children are children. The government had them surrounded and under siege, they were not going anywhere. Poor poor judgement on Reno's part
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But what were the other alternatives?  Let them get away with murdering 4 ATF agents?
> 
> 
> 
> Wuwei said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. Yes David was a bit of a whacko. His following had their common sense compromised. The FBI knew this but used a well known dangerous method to get them out which resulted in fire. I can understand why the FBI would claim Davidians started the fire. They were saving their ass. Nevertheless it was a shameful lie.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Except four investigations all concluded that the Davidians started the fires.
> 
> Now, the FBI did show a lot of really bad judgement, including the use of psyops to make the crazies a little crazier.
> 
> at the end of the day, though, the Davidians brought this on themselves.
> 
> I do find it amusing that the same right wingers who justify excessive force by police officers against black folks selling illegal cigarettes or playing with toys in parks are the ones who think that these thug cultists who sold illegal guns and molested kids were the victims here.
Click to expand...



Lol, you mean that’s what you choose to pelieve Joe. But I find it funny that you think it’s fine the kids died by being burnt to death rather then being safely collected and removed from the situation. That and your tendency to hold people up as heros people who kill or hurt children. Go to all your Lewis Gosnell posts. You slobber all over the guy and act like he was Nelson Mandella or something. It’s very disturbing. You going to cry to a mod now cry babie?


----------



## JoeB131

Crixus said:


> Lol, you mean that’s what you choose to pelieve Joe. But I find it funny that you think it’s fine the kids died by being burnt to death rather then being safely collected and removed from the situation. That and your tendency to hold people up as heros people who kill or hurt children. Go to all your Lewis Gosnell posts. You slobber all over the guy and act like he was Nelson Mandella or something. It’s very disturbing. You going to cry to a mod now cry babie?



Naw, man, I just marvel at someone with no reading comprehension skills trying to have an argument. 

Yes, thinking a prosecution was dubious is "making someone a hero". No, really.  So when the judge threw out the 100 imaginary babies and reduced it to three, he was clearly slobbering all over the guy.  And when the prosecutors gave him a sweetheart sentencing deal if he promised not to appeal, they were treating him just like Nelson Mandella.  

As far as the little cultists getting burned alive, that's on their parents. Not on the FBI, the ATF or anyone else.  Again, probably a good thing, because who knows what those little gun toting, sexually perverted shits would have turned out to be. Half of them were Koresh's spawn, anyway. Think of the crime wave that was prevented. 



Crixus said:


> I lived tiger that way as a teen. One thing that about everyone said is that local law enforcement knew all about David koresh. They simply could have had a sheriff deputy say “ hay David, can you come in for few and talk”? I also remember many said the ATF was trying to build a reputation and get its combat chops. It’s also undeniable that the US Govt said they did it wrong and had to cough up money to the people who survived. What ever you think of the cult the feds pooched it.



The local keystone cops did have a good relationship with Koresh. So good that he could have a shootout with rival cultists and no one went to jail.  So awesome he could openly molest children and they local cops were all too fine with it.  And stockpile a huge amount of automatic weapons?  Phhhhh.... that's exactly what Jesus would do!


----------



## Crixus

JoeB131 said:


> Crixus said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lol, you mean that’s what you choose to pelieve Joe. But I find it funny that you think it’s fine the kids died by being burnt to death rather then being safely collected and removed from the situation. That and your tendency to hold people up as heros people who kill or hurt children. Go to all your Lewis Gosnell posts. You slobber all over the guy and act like he was Nelson Mandella or something. It’s very disturbing. You going to cry to a mod now cry babie?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Naw, man, I just marvel at someone with no reading comprehension skills trying to have an argument.
> 
> Yes, thinking a prosecution was dubious is "making someone a hero". No, really.  So when the judge threw out the 100 imaginary babies and reduced it to three, he was clearly slobbering all over the guy.  And when the prosecutors gave him a sweetheart sentencing deal if he promised not to appeal, they were treating him just like Nelson Mandella.
> 
> As far as the little cultists getting burned alive, that's on their parents. Not on the FBI, the ATF or anyone else.  Again, probably a good thing, because who knows what those little gun toting, sexually perverted shits would have turned out to be. Half of them were Koresh's spawn, anyway. Think of the crime wave that was prevented.
> 
> 
> 
> Crixus said:
> 
> 
> 
> I lived tiger that way as a teen. One thing that about everyone said is that local law enforcement knew all about David koresh. They simply could have had a sheriff deputy say “ hay David, can you come in for few and talk”? I also remember many said the ATF was trying to build a reputation and get its combat chops. It’s also undeniable that the US Govt said they did it wrong and had to cough up money to the people who survived. What ever you think of the cult the feds pooched it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The local keystone cops did have a good relationship with Koresh. So good that he could have a shootout with rival cultists and no one went to jail.  So awesome he could openly molest children and they local cops were all too fine with it.  And stockpile a huge amount of automatic weapons?  Phhhhh.... that's exactly what Jesus would do!
Click to expand...




Says the guy who has typos and misspelling in all his posts. Remember when you tried to say you are a pro writer, but misspelled “campaign “ you were gone a week editing posts. That, and you blame Mormons for making it so you can only flip burgers at McDonalds. 


But it is a theam with you. You ALWAYS Come out in favor of anyone who kills kids. Anyone an go back and see that in allyour posts. They are there to see by anyone.


Now, YOUR democrat run courts ordered the democrat controlled government to pay up because they messed up. And the davidans who went to jail suffered a veteran light penalty for shooting feds. You are again defending  failure. Unlike you, the cops weren’t okay with him. They had visitors the compound. They could have picked up Koresh At Walmart and dropped him off with the Feds. Nope, ATT needed a win. And they got their ass’s handed to them by no nothings. Go watch abortions films or something. Mayhap that will brighten your day some. Now run and get your girlfriends Will to run and save you.


----------



## JoeB131

Crixus said:


> Says the guy who has typos and misspelling in all his posts. Remember when you tried to say you are a pro writer, but misspelled “campaign “ you were gone a week editing posts. That, and you blame Mormons for making it so you can only flip burgers at McDonalds.



Wow, guy, you are babbling... 



Crixus said:


> But it is a theam with you. You ALWAYS Come out in favor of anyone who kills kids. Anyone an go back and see that in allyour posts. They are there to see by anyone.



Not sure what a 'theam" is, but fetuses aren't kids.  That's why the women they are in have no problem killing them.  Now, if you want to go back to Gosnell, why didn't they charge every woman who had an abortion with him as a co-conspirator?  When you arrest a hit man, you also arrest the people who hired him.  Sometimes you even get the hit man to flip on the people who hired him. 

So by the logic of the people who want to prosecute Gosnell, you should have also arrested every woman who was a patient at his clinic. 

Or you could have just arrested him for the adult woman he killed and all the drugs he was dealing and got the same result.  



Crixus said:


> Now, YOUR democrat run courts ordered the democrat controlled government to pay up because they messed up.



No, they didn't.  



Crixus said:


> And the davidans who went to jail suffered a veteran light penalty for shooting feds.



Um, they went to prison for manslaughter. That's hardly a "veteran" light penalty. (I'm sure you meant to say something else, but I'm not going to try to figure out what. Maybe you should stop using your phone to answer these things.) 



Crixus said:


> Unlike you, the cops weren’t okay with him. They had visitors the compound. They could have picked up Koresh At Walmart and dropped him off with the Feds.



Um, the local cops knew he was stockpiling weapons, they knew he was molesting kids, and they did nothing about him.  



Crixus said:


> Nope, ATT needed a win.



I'll say, Verizon has been kicking their ass.  Oh, wait, I'm sure that's not what you meant to say. 



Crixus said:


> And they got their ass’s handed to them by no nothings.



If you mean, they were ambushed by crazy cultists who murdered police officers, um yeah.  SO much for "Blue Lives Matter".  Maybe you should amend that to "Blue Lives Matter unless they are enforcing gun laws and then they are jackbooted thugs!!!"  



Crixus said:


> Go watch abortions films or something. Mayhap that will brighten your day some. Now run and get your girlfriends Will to run and save you.



From what, your barely literate posts?  Guy, the real problem is, making fun of you could be fun all day, but I've got other stuff to do.


----------



## harmonica

Crixus said:


> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> did they not have a warrant?
> people just can't say no to warrants
> and Koresh had all the time to give up
> --the critical aspect here is Koresh was a nutjob.....he should've given up, but he was wacko--undeniable
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I lived tiger that way as a teen. One thing that about everyone said is that local law enforcement knew all about David koresh. They simply could have had a sheriff deputy say “ hay David, can you come in for few and talk”? I also remember many said the ATF was trying to build a reputation and get its combat chops. It’s also undeniable that the US Govt said they did it wrong and had to cough up money to the people who survived. What ever you think of the cult the feds pooched it.
Click to expand...

..I agree they are/are sometimes jackasses and idiots.....they like the Rambo crap
..Ruby Ridge was horrific
...but it was Koresh who should've come out and surrendered...he didn't care about the kids at all
...they couldn't just let them sit there for a year or two...you can't have people saying FU every time a cop/etc serves a warrant---then you will have chaos/lawlessness


----------



## Desperado

harmonica said:


> Crixus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> did they not have a warrant?
> people just can't say no to warrants
> and Koresh had all the time to give up
> --the critical aspect here is Koresh was a nutjob.....he should've given up, but he was wacko--undeniable
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I lived tiger that way as a teen. One thing that about everyone said is that local law enforcement knew all about David koresh. They simply could have had a sheriff deputy say “ hay David, can you come in for few and talk”? I also remember many said the ATF was trying to build a reputation and get its combat chops. It’s also undeniable that the US Govt said they did it wrong and had to cough up money to the people who survived. What ever you think of the cult the feds pooched it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ..I agree they are/are sometimes jackasses and idiots.....they like the Rambo crap
> ..Ruby Ridge was horrific
> ...but it was Koresh who should've come out and surrendered...he didn't care about the kids at all
> ...they couldn't just let them sit there for a year or two...you can't have people saying FU every time a cop/etc serves a warrant---then you will have chaos/lawlessness
Click to expand...

 Again the ATF wanted a big scene or else they would have arrested him the next time he went into town.


----------



## JoeB131

Desperado said:


> Again the ATF wanted a big scene or else they would have arrested him the next time he went into town.



Yes, they wanted to do it very publicly as a warning to anyone else who was using gun shows to trade in illegal weapons.  

The thing I fault the ATF for is that they had an inside man in the compound, that guy went out and warned them that the cultists knew they were coming, and they went ahead anyway knowing that the Davidians had their guns out.


----------



## Crixus

Desperado said:


> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Crixus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> did they not have a warrant?
> people just can't say no to warrants
> and Koresh had all the time to give up
> --the critical aspect here is Koresh was a nutjob.....he should've given up, but he was wacko--undeniable
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I lived tiger that way as a teen. One thing that about everyone said is that local law enforcement knew all about David koresh. They simply could have had a sheriff deputy say “ hay David, can you come in for few and talk”? I also remember many said the ATF was trying to build a reputation and get its combat chops. It’s also undeniable that the US Govt said they did it wrong and had to cough up money to the people who survived. What ever you think of the cult the feds pooched it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ..I agree they are/are sometimes jackasses and idiots.....they like the Rambo crap
> ..Ruby Ridge was horrific
> ...but it was Koresh who should've come out and surrendered...he didn't care about the kids at all
> ...they couldn't just let them sit there for a year or two...you can't have people saying FU every time a cop/etc serves a warrant---then you will have chaos/lawlessness
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Again the ATF wanted a big scene or else they would have arrested him the next time he went into town.
Click to expand...




Yup. It could have just been a people of Walmart vedio.


----------



## Crixus

JoeB131 said:


> Desperado said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again the ATF wanted a big scene or else they would have arrested him the next time he went into town.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, they wanted to do it very publicly as a warning to anyone else who was using gun shows to trade in illegal weapons.
> 
> The thing I fault the ATF for is that they had an inside man in the compound, that guy went out and warned them that the cultists knew they were coming, and they went ahead anyway knowing that the Davidians had their guns out.
Click to expand...






 


Yeah. Don’t worry, we are here to help.


----------



## JoeB131

Crixus said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Desperado said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again the ATF wanted a big scene or else they would have arrested him the next time he went into town.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, they wanted to do it very publicly as a warning to anyone else who was using gun shows to trade in illegal weapons.
> 
> The thing I fault the ATF for is that they had an inside man in the compound, that guy went out and warned them that the cultists knew they were coming, and they went ahead anyway knowing that the Davidians had their guns out.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 180297
> 
> 
> Yeah. Don’t worry, we are here to help.
Click to expand...


Elian went home to his Dad and he was happy after that.  


How Elian Gonzalez Feels Now About His Return to Cuba

“I feel safe in Cuba, and I believe that after the years my dad always said that I was free to do what I wanted, but when I had the age to do so," he said. "At the time, I was 5 years old and, at the time, the right thing was to be with my father."

He added that he also enjoyed the privacy his life in Cuba afforded him.

“I’ve been living to the fullest and have something, perhaps, I wouldn’t have had in the United States -- is the respect of the press to live my life in a normal way," he said. "To grow like a normal young man, I developed myself, I have friends, I go to parties and I practice sports. And I thank my dad because of that, above all.”


----------



## Desperado

JoeB131 said:


> Crixus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Desperado said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again the ATF wanted a big scene or else they would have arrested him the next time he went into town.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, they wanted to do it very publicly as a warning to anyone else who was using gun shows to trade in illegal weapons.
> 
> The thing I fault the ATF for is that they had an inside man in the compound, that guy went out and warned them that the cultists knew they were coming, and they went ahead anyway knowing that the Davidians had their guns out.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 180297
> 
> 
> Yeah. Don’t worry, we are here to help.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Elian went home to his Dad and he was happy after that.
> 
> 
> How Elian Gonzalez Feels Now About His Return to Cuba
> 
> “I feel safe in Cuba, and I believe that after the years my dad always said that I was free to do what I wanted, but when I had the age to do so," he said. "At the time, I was 5 years old and, at the time, the right thing was to be with my father."
> 
> He added that he also enjoyed the privacy his life in Cuba afforded him.
> 
> “I’ve been living to the fullest and have something, perhaps, I wouldn’t have had in the United States -- is the respect of the press to live my life in a normal way," he said. "To grow like a normal young man, I developed myself, I have friends, I go to parties and I practice sports. And I thank my dad because of that, above all.”
Click to expand...

Elian belonged with his father, no question about that.
You try to keep families together


----------



## LA RAM FAN

Synthaholic said:


> LA RAM FAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Clinton and Reno showed much more patience than those criminals deserved.
> 
> In this country, when the lawful authorities tell you to come out with your hands up you DO IT, then hire a lawyer.
> 
> Anything else will rightly get you killed.  You've been warned.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uh obviously you missed the part earlier where someone mentioned Koresh went to the grocery store and post office  everyday while the authorities were there for over a month where they could easily have apprehended him then if they wanted and avoided the murdering women and children and yet you say this god bless janet reno fucking crap?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Irrelevant. When they DID show up to arrest him he should have complied and hired a lawyer.  He decided to fight the FBI and ATF. That got him dead.
Click to expand...


Not irrelevent at all,they were not interested in arresting him,they started the fires and shot people when they came out and yelled dont shoot and raised their arms as well as startint the fires themselves and not being held accountable for their actions.clinton lied about the whole damm thing about the davidians starting the fires. oh and considering that the ATF were fliiping them off and showing their dicks off and mooning everyone  who would want to surrender to some sick fucks like THAT come on use your brain for a second.


----------



## Crixus

JoeB131 said:


> Crixus said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Desperado said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again the ATF wanted a big scene or else they would have arrested him the next time he went into town.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, they wanted to do it very publicly as a warning to anyone else who was using gun shows to trade in illegal weapons.
> 
> The thing I fault the ATF for is that they had an inside man in the compound, that guy went out and warned them that the cultists knew they were coming, and they went ahead anyway knowing that the Davidians had their guns out.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 180297
> 
> 
> Yeah. Don’t worry, we are here to help.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Elian went home to his Dad and he was happy after that.
> 
> 
> How Elian Gonzalez Feels Now About His Return to Cuba
> 
> “I feel safe in Cuba, and I believe that after the years my dad always said that I was free to do what I wanted, but when I had the age to do so," he said. "At the time, I was 5 years old and, at the time, the right thing was to be with my father."
> 
> He added that he also enjoyed the privacy his life in Cuba afforded him.
> 
> “I’ve been living to the fullest and have something, perhaps, I wouldn’t have had in the United States -- is the respect of the press to live my life in a normal way," he said. "To grow like a normal young man, I developed myself, I have friends, I go to parties and I practice sports. And I thank my dad because of that, above all.”
Click to expand...



See what I mean? Okay with child abuse. You must be so proud seeing a law man directed by a democrat sticking an smg in a kids face. You would be a model Republican guard. You need more living and less call of duty.


----------



## JoeB131

Crixus said:


> See what I mean? Okay with child abuse. You must be so proud seeing a law man directed by a democrat sticking an smg in a kids face. You would be a model Republican guard. You need more living and less call of duty.



The guy who was hiding in a closet with that kid had ignored a court order to return him to his father, who was the rightful custodian. 

The abuse was putting this kid on display as some kind of symbol for that Cuban Exile Community.


----------



## Flash

It was an excellent series.   The story needs to be told.

However, it was so infuriating watching the jackbooted government assholes that I couldn't even watch the last episode.

The sad thing is that story was not fiction but actually happen.

Never trust the government.  They are never going to look after your interest.  They will take your money, fuck you and if they feel like it kill you and your children.  Waco is a great example.


----------



## JoeB131

Flash said:


> It was an excellent series. The story needs to be told.
> 
> However, it was so infuriating watching the jackbooted government assholes that I couldn't even watch the last episode.
> 
> The sad thing is that story was not fiction but actually happen.
> 
> Never trust the government. They are never going to look after your interest. They will take your money, fuck you and if they feel like it kill you and your children. Waco is a great example.



Really? 

I think the real lesson of Waco should be don't be a religious nut who lets a creep rape your children and sell guns.


----------



## MikeK

hunarcy said:


> SassyIrishLass said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dark day when innocent children die like that. Our government should be ashamed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The only children killed were those fathered by Koresh.  I don't know what that means, but it doesn't feel innocent to me.
Click to expand...

Are you questioning the fundamental innocence of those children, some of whom were as young as two?


----------



## MikeK

JoeB131 said:


> Flash said:
> 
> 
> 
> It was an excellent series. The story needs to be told.
> 
> However, it was so infuriating watching the jackbooted government assholes that I couldn't even watch the last episode.
> 
> The sad thing is that story was not fiction but actually happen.
> 
> Never trust the government. They are never going to look after your interest. They will take your money, fuck you and if they feel like it kill you and your children. Waco is a great example.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really?
> 
> I think the real lesson of Waco should be don't be a religious nut who lets a creep rape your children and sell guns.
Click to expand...

Do you believe Koresh was raping children?  Have you read any of the books on this subject, such as _The Ashes of Waco?_ 

As far as Koresh "selling guns," why does that upset you?  Do you believe there is something inherently wrong with selling guns?  WalMart sells guns.  So do lots of others, major corporations as well as individuals.  

What you don't know, and possibly don't wish to know, is several of the Branch Davidians were federally licensed firearms dealers and the Branch Davidians operated an active mail-order firearms and accessories business.  In spite of strenuous efforts on the part of the BATF no evidence was ever produced to show the Davidians had broken any gun laws.  Everything the feds had to say about that was fabricated.  

You need to do some reading on the subject.


----------



## JoeB131

MikeK said:


> Do you believe Koresh was raping children? Have you read any of the books on this subject, such as _The Ashes of Waco?_



Um, yeah, I've read lots of books on the subject, including one by ex-cult member David Thibadeau, where he admits that Koresh banged the 11 year old sister of his legal wife, and fathered three children with her. 



MikeK said:


> As far as Koresh "selling guns," why does that upset you? Do you believe there is something inherently wrong with selling guns? WalMart sells guns. So do lots of others, major corporations as well as individuals.



Well, first, gun ownership should be banned, but Koresh and his mob were doing more than that. they were selling illegally modified weapons, which is what triggered the ATF investigation. 



MikeK said:


> What you don't know, and possibly don't wish to know, is several of the Branch Davidians were federally licensed firearms dealers and the Branch Davidians operated an active mail-order firearms and accessories business. In spite of strenuous efforts on the part of the BATF no evidence was ever produced to show the Davidians had broken any gun laws. Everything the feds had to say about that was fabricated.



Yes, which gave the ATF authorization to inspect their inventory and records... and when they tried, the Davidians started shooting at them. 



MikeK said:


> You need to do some reading on the subject.



I've read plenty on the subject... the Davidians were a bunch of fucked up cultists and good riddance.


----------



## Lysistrata

The only fault of the ATF and the FBI was going ahead with the first raid even though people had advance knowledge of it, causing the deaths of at least three agents when people inside the compound opened fire on them. This wasn't the first time that cops screwed up. Remember the 1985 bombing of Philadelphia in an effort to get members of MOVE, when everyone in the MOVE fortified house died, and 61 homes were burnt to the ground:

1985: When Philly police dropped a bomb on a residential neighborhood

Nobody remembers MOVE or thinks that they were murdered by heartless government officials. MOVE seems to have been a Koresh-type outfit. Nobody even remembers the innocent people who were burnt out of 61+ homes in the area as a result of a bomb set off by law enforcement.

So I don't know how why what happened in Waco should be remembered. Koresh was known for the sexual abuse and grooming of female children and other abuse of male children. Koresh opened fire on agents with an arrest warrant some 51 days before. The fires were set by the Branch Davidians themselves. It was the county sheriff's department that first contacted the ATF.

Growing Up Under Koresh: Cult Children Tell of Abuses

Life inside apocalyptic religious sect involved in 1993 Waco siege

Waco siege - Wikipedia

How the 1993 Waco standoff began with a bloody gunbattle that federal agents now regret  | Crime | Dallas News

I was home that day to clean the carpets and watched the entire incident unfold in real time. Even after the fire started, no one attempted to escape. I started screaming at the TV when I saw no one coming out. The fires were set in two different places.

All of this BS about Waco is just that.


----------



## hunarcy

MikeK said:


> hunarcy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SassyIrishLass said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dark day when innocent children die like that. Our government should be ashamed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The only children killed were those fathered by Koresh.  I don't know what that means, but it doesn't feel innocent to me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you questioning the fundamental innocence of those children, some of whom were as young as two?
Click to expand...


Nope, not the kids.  Of the action of keeping them.


----------



## MikeK

harmonica said:


> [...]
> what don't you understand about a warrant???


One thing I do understand about a warrant is if its specifications are flawed the warrant is void -- and the warrant issued to BATF to forcibly search the Davidian premises contained several  outstanding flaws.  THE UNWARRANTED WARRANT


----------



## MikeK

JoeB131 said:


> Um, yeah, I've read lots of books on the subject, including one by ex-cult member David Thibadeau, where he admits that Koresh banged the 11 year old sister of his legal wife, and fathered three children with her.


The fact that David Thibodeau was a resident Branch Davidian leaves little room for objectivity where Koresh's relationships are concerned.  While I'm not suggesting what Thibodeau has to say about Koresh in his book, _A Place Called Waco,_ is necessarily tainted, I will say a far more reliable source of information on personal dynamics and activities within the cult are the perceptions of an observer who had no personal relationships with any of its members.


----------



## Lysistrata

Don't forget that Koresh repeatedly raped little girls and forced little boys to march around like soldiers, and then lit the fires that killed so many. The public support for child rapists and sex-groomers in this country has been astounding.

Even if the warrant being served on Koresh was flawed in some way, this would be an argument to be made in court, not an excuse for him and his minions to start shooting at the people serving it.


----------



## JoeB131

MikeK said:


> One thing I do understand about a warrant is if its specifications are flawed the warrant is void -- and the warrant issued to BATF to forcibly search the Davidian premises contained several outstanding flaws.



So what?  If that was the case, you get a lawyer and you argue it in court. 

You don't go shooting at the LEO's serving it. 



MikeK said:


> The fact that David Thibodeau was a resident Branch Davidian leaves little room for objectivity where Koresh's relationships are concerned. While I'm not suggesting what Thibodeau has to say about Koresh in his book, _A Place Called Waco,_ is necessarily tainted, I will say a far more reliable source of information on personal dynamics and activities within the cult are the perceptions of an observer who had no personal relationships with any of its members.



That's, um, crazy.  

Thibodeau lived on the compound. He saw Michelle Jones, the 11 year old sister of Koresh's wife, Rachel Jones, and the three children that Koresh fathered on her.  He also filed false marriage papers to Jones to cover up the fact that Koresh fathered her children. 

Koresh was a fucked up nut who molested kids and illegally sold guns.  And he decided to murder his followers rather than man up and take the punishment he had coming.


----------



## dblack

Penelope said:


> Desperado said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did anyone watch the WACO mini series on the Paramount (Spike) network?
> To me it it made the  Branch Davidians and David Koresh look like the victims of an out of control
> federal law enforcement agents, specifically the ATF and the FBI.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He was a nutcase, and they had plenty of time to escape and they started the fire, its all on them.  Wacko's with a pedophile leader and a storehouse of weapons.
Click to expand...


It appears jack boots come in both red, and blue, varieties.


----------



## JoeB131

dblack said:


> It appears jack boots come in both red, and blue, varieties.



Or we just can't work up a lot of sympathy for Crazy White People who belong to whacky cults.  

I wonder why you Libertarian nuts don't show this much outrage when a black child is shot by a cop.


----------



## dblack

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> 
> It appears jack boots come in both red, and blue, varieties.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or we just can't work up a lot of sympathy for Crazy White People who belong to whacky cults.
> 
> I wonder why you Libertarian nuts don't show this much outrage when a black child is shot by a cop.
Click to expand...


I know you don't read all my posts, Joe, but I do.

Do you like red, blue - or just the traditional black best?


----------



## JoeB131

dblack said:


> I know you don't read all my posts, Joe, but I do.
> 
> Do you like red, blue - or just the traditional black best?



I like not having to share my streets with pedophile cultists with guns... 

that's what I like.


----------



## dblack

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know you don't read all my posts, Joe, but I do.
> 
> Do you like red, blue - or just the traditional black best?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I like not having to share my streets with pedophile cultists with guns...
> 
> that's what I like.
Click to expand...


Heh.. yeah, I know what you like. It's in every one of your posts. I honestly don't recall a thread on government overreach where you weren't cheering for the government.


----------



## JoeB131

dblack said:


> Heh.. yeah, I know what you like. It's in every one of your posts. I honestly don't recall a thread on government overreach where you weren't cheering for the government.



So you missed all those times I criticized police departments for shooting unarmed black kids?


----------



## dblack

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> 
> Heh.. yeah, I know what you like. It's in every one of your posts. I honestly don't recall a thread on government overreach where you weren't cheering for the government.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you missed all those times I criticized police departments for shooting unarmed black kids?
Click to expand...


I guess I did. I just mostly see you in threads like these, cheering for fascist crackdowns on people you don't like. 

It just seems like that's what government has devolved to for a lot of people - a tool to get one over on other people.


----------



## JoeB131

dblack said:


> I guess I did. I just mostly see you in threads like these, cheering for fascist crackdowns on people you don't like.



Yes, i really do dislike pedophile religious nuts with machine guns,f or some reason....  



dblack said:


> It just seems like that's what government has devolved to for a lot of people - a tool to get one over on other people.



Or we have it to protect us from each other. 

Frankly, I want a government to protect us from people like David Koresh.  I'm not sure why you don't.  

But again, Koresh and his nuts offed themselves, not the government.


----------



## dblack

JoeB131 said:


> But again, Koresh and his nuts offed themselves, not the government.



Of course. The government was just there trying to talk them out of it. With incendiary grenades.


----------



## MikeK

JoeB131 said:


> So what?  If that was the case, you get a lawyer and you argue it in court.


You obviously didn't read Dick Reavis' book, _The Ashes of Waco,_ in which he exhaustively quotes Koresh's lawyer, Dick DeGuerin, who was the only private citizen afforded access to Koresh which was limited to one brief visit.  The FBI denied any further access to DeGuerin, citing concern for DeGuerin's safety, which DeGuerin dismissed as subterfuge. 

From the very beginning of that standoff Koresh's demand for access to the media, either directly or through his lawyer, was, except for that one brief visit, strenuously avoided.  The Press (and the public in general) was confined to an area two full miles from the site of the standoff -- supposedly for their safety.  The only thing they (and the public) knew about what was going on was what the FBI told them. 

Dozens of reporters pleaded for access to Koresh by telephone, which was denied.  This blanket of secrecy convinced Koresh that he would never have access to public opinion, whether via the media by telephone from behind the walls of the compound or in a court of Law.  The pivotal question here is *why was Koresh denied this access.* 

Are you not personally offended by it?   




> You don't go shooting at the LEO's serving it (a flawed warrant).



It seems that either you are some kind of LEO, or you're a textbook authoritarian personality, or you're both.  I believe this because I know two New York City police officers who have candidly condemned the actions of the feds at Waco, both BATF and FBI/HRT (Hostage "Rescue" Team). 

Going further; you might not be aware that the jury in a Texas state criminal court *acquitted* each of the Branch Davidians who admitted returning fire when the ATF stormed their residence.  This acquittal was based on the fact that in accordance with Texas state law the ATF's actions were unlawful, excessively aggressive,  and the Davidians had a right to defend their home against them.

JURY ACQUITS CULT MEMBERS OF MURDER IN WACO SHOOTOUT

The federal courts take a different view of the situation.  So whichever point of view you happen to agree with will serve as an indicator of your personal orientation in the matter of civil rights and the rights of citizens in relation to the law-enforcement establishment.[/quote]


----------



## MikeK

JoeB131 said:


> So what?  If that was the case, you get a lawyer and you argue it in court.
> 
> You don't go shooting at the LEO's serving it.


That depends entirely on the manner in which the warrant is being served.  This is America -- not Saudi Arabia.

Your diatribes are directed at David Koresh.  No other Branch Davidian is named in them, nor have you presented any specific criminal charges against any other.  Add to that the fact that David Koresh could easily have been arrested during any of his regular visits to the Post Office and/or grocery store.  There was absolutely no reason for the BATF to do what they did.  The FBI knows that.  Anyone with an average intellect, a sense of common decency and a belief in the fundamental principles of liberty knows that.

There is a reason why the issue of the Waco massacre continues to arise decade after decade.  It was a terrible misuse of government's power over its citizens.


----------



## strollingbones

and ruby ridge


----------



## MikeK

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> 
> It appears jack boots come in both red, and blue, varieties.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or we just can't work up a lot of sympathy for Crazy White People who belong to whacky cults.
> 
> I wonder why you Libertarian nuts don't show this much outrage when a black child is shot by a cop.
Click to expand...

Do you mean a Black "child" like "Big Mike" Brown?   You find some similarity between the two events?  If so, please elaborate.


----------



## MikeK

strollingbones said:


> and ruby ridge


Another example of what we're becoming.


----------



## MikeK

JoeB131 said:


> So you missed all those times I criticized police departments for shooting unarmed black kids?


But you're not too upset about a bunch of White kids, including a few infants, being incinerated.  Or do you believe the sins of the fathers justified the law-enforcement god imposing that punishment?


----------



## MikeK

JoeB131 said:


> [...]
> 
> Frankly, I want a government to protect us from people like David Koresh.  I'm not sure why you don't.
> 
> [...]


What threat did David Koresh or any of the Branch Davidians pose to you, or me, or anyone else?  Who did any of those people harm?  The answer is no one.

While it is entirely possible that Vernon Howell ("David Koresh") was guilty of certain forms of socially unacceptable behavior he was not the evil demon that various government entities and individuals such as yourself portray him as being.  If he did in fact engage in certain pedophilic activities none of it took place outside the boundaries of the Davidian cult wherein it was as acceptable as it is in many other exotic religious gatherings, both past and present.  And while you have casually accused him of rape, not even the professional liars who produced the BATF's warrant application went that far.

I find it interesting that Sheriff Jack Harwell, the chief of that county's law enforcement resources, had a more favorable impression and opinion of Koresh and the Branch Davidians than you (and some others) do -- the main difference being Harwell knew the Davidians personally while you did not.

Sheriff Jack Harwell | Waco - The Inside Story | FRONTLINE | PBS


----------



## MikeK

JoeB131 said:


> I like not having to share my streets with pedophile cultists with guns...
> 
> that's what I like.


Then you should like the Branch Davidians -- who kept to themselves and never came anywhere near your streets.  Yet you despise them and celebrate what some rogue government groups did to them.  Punished and killed them all and burned their babies alive.  

And that's the truth in a capsule.


----------



## MikeK

JoeB131 said:


> [...]
> 
> Well, first, gun ownership should be banned, but Koresh and his mob were doing more than that. they were selling illegally modified weapons, which is what triggered the ATF investigation.
> 
> [...]


If gun ownership was actually banned what percentage of the population do you believe would voluntarily comply?  Do you realize that effective enforcement of such a ban would require methods, and would create a social atmosphere, exceeding anything envisioned in Orwell's _Nineteen Eighty Four_ and Huxley's _Brave New World?_  It would require that ordinary _flat-foot_ cops would be empowered to arbitrarily search you or your car, or to force their way into your home at any time to search for guns.

If gun ownership was banned only the law-abiding would comply -- leaving them defenseless against the non-compliant criminal element.   So how smart would a gun-ban be?


----------



## MikeK

Lysistrata said:


> Don't forget that Koresh repeatedly raped little girls and forced little boys to march around like soldiers, and then lit the fires that killed so many. The public support for child rapists and sex-groomers in this country has been astounding.
> 
> Even if the warrant being served on Koresh was flawed in some way, this would be an argument to be made in court, not an excuse for him and his minions to start shooting at the people serving it.


----------



## Dale Smith

Desperado said:


> Did anyone watch the WACO mini series on the Paramount (Spike) network?
> To me it it made the  Branch Davidians and David Koresh look like the victims of an out of control
> federal law enforcement agents, specifically the ATF and the FBI.



The ATF could have taken Koresh into custody at any time had they wanted. The federal "gubermint" was embarrassed by the Ruby Ridge incident and they wanted revenge and they wanted to demonize and marginalize anyone that was pro-2nd amendment and against a federal, corporate entity that is ran out of the District of Columbia that has it's own corporate charter constitution via the Act of 1871.

Personally? I spit and piss on the Feds by exposing them every chance I get and they don't like it that I rescinded my U.S citizenship and no longer under their acts, statutes, codes and ordinances. I have been a thorn in their side for years. They can eat shit and die for all I care. Live free or die.......I will never submit to the Feds.


----------



## MikeK

Lysistrata said:


> Don't forget that Koresh repeatedly raped little girls and forced little boys to march around like soldiers, and then lit the fires that killed so many. The public support for child rapists and sex-groomers in this country has been astounding.


Whether the Davidians started the fires as a deliberately suicidal act, or if the reckless actions of the FBI/HRT accidentally caused ignition, remains a matter of divided opinions.  But three things are undeniably certain.  The FBI/HRT knew Koresh had threatened mass suicide if an attempt was made to breach the compound's walls.  They had reliable cause (advice of professional behaviorists) to believe Koresh was mentally unstable.  And they knew there were 21 helpless children in that building.  

They knew those things.


----------



## Lysistrata

MikeK said:


> Lysistrata said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't forget that Koresh repeatedly raped little girls and forced little boys to march around like soldiers, and then lit the fires that killed so many. The public support for child rapists and sex-groomers in this country has been astounding.
> 
> 
> 
> Whether the Davidians started the fires as a deliberately suicidal act, or if the reckless actions of the FBI/HRT accidentally caused ignition, remains a matter of divided opinions.  But three things are undeniably certain.  The FBI/HRT knew Koresh had threatened mass suicide if an attempt was made to breach the compound's walls.  They had reliable cause (advice of professional behaviorists) to believe Koresh was mentally unstable.  And they knew there were 21 helpless children in that building.
> 
> They knew those things.
Click to expand...


So what was law enforcement supposed to do, considering that Koresh and his minions had opened fire on the LEO's weeks ago, resulting in several deaths and injuries?  How long does society have to let these groups go on,,baby raping and weapons stock-piling? Are they supposed to be mollycoddled for what they were doing? Yeah. There were "helpless children" inside that building with a madman, as well as adults who may have wished to leave. The government of Australia was even pointing out that there were Australian nationals endangered there. Law enforcement is, at the very least, charged with rescuing children from these circumstances. Who else but them could do so? I doubt that anyone else would dash in and carry a 12-year-old rape victim to safety.

Incidentally, the fires were started in two separate locations. This much was evident from watching. 

Why place the blame on law enforcement and not the Branch Davidians?


----------



## JoeB131

dblack said:


> Of course. The government was just there trying to talk them out of it. With incendiary grenades.



No, they were trying to chase them out with CS Gas, which actually was a pretty bad tactic. 

Most of what the FBI tried was ineffective, because you were dealing with crazy people who let their cult leader fuck their children. When you are that level of batshit crazy, I'm not sure what would have worked.  



MikeK said:


> You obviously didn't read Dick Reavis' book, _The Ashes of Waco,_ in which he exhaustively quotes Koresh's lawyer, Dick DeGuerin, who was the only private citizen afforded access to Koresh which was limited to one brief visit. The FBI denied any further access to DeGuerin, citing concern for DeGuerin's safety, which DeGuerin dismissed as subterfuge.



Okay, gonna stop you right there.  All that happened AFTER Koresh shot and killed 4 ATF agents.  There was no argument his sleazy lawyer was going to make in court that wasn't going to end with him going to the big house and finding out what they do to Chomos there. 



MikeK said:


> The pivotal question here is *why was Koresh denied this access.*
> 
> Are you not personally offended by it?



No, guy, I'm offended so many of you people on the right want to take this MONSTER who molested children and incited his followers to mass suicide, and make him into a hero.  That's what I'm personally offended by. 



MikeK said:


> Your diatribes are directed at David Koresh. No other Branch Davidian is named in them, nor have you presented any specific criminal charges against any other. Add to that the fact that David Koresh could easily have been arrested during any of his regular visits to the Post Office and/or grocery store. There was absolutely no reason for the BATF to do what they did.



Sure there was.  They wanted to make a very public arrest to make sure that other assholes who were selling illegal weapons at guns shows know that doesn't end well.  Now, yeah, they could have waited for him to pick up the pile of welfare checks his illegitimate kids had applied for at the post office (swell guy you all support) but that would have been an iffy proposition,and part of the intent was to seize the guns he had illegaly modified. 

For the other Branch Davidians... they all sat there and watched Koresh molest kids and said nothing.  Fuck them. 



MikeK said:


> Anyone with an average intellect, a sense of common decency and a belief in the fundamental principles of liberty knows that.



Common decency, you don't molest kids and sell weapons to crazy people illegally. 



MikeK said:


> There is a reason why the issue of the Waco massacre continues to arise decade after decade. It was a terrible misuse of government's power over its citizens.



Naw, every decade, we have to point out again what really happened, because the lies get compounded.  

The truth. Vernon Howell led a cult of crazy people who let him molest their children and raised a lot money selling illegal weapons. WHen the ATF tried to do their job, he murdered four of their agents, and then his followers committed mass suicide because their messiah didn't want to go be a prison bitch for the rest of his life. 

The End.


----------



## JoeB131

MikeK said:


> Do you mean a Black "child" like "Big Mike" Brown? You find some similarity between the two events? If so, please elaborate.



Like Tamir Rice, shot when he was playing with a toy gun.
Like LaQuan McDonald, shot 16 times when he was lying on the ground. 

But man, you'll be all up in arms about this Chomo who killed himself.  



MikeK said:


> Whether the Davidians started the fires as a deliberately suicidal act, or if the reckless actions of the FBI/HRT accidentally caused ignition, remains a matter of divided opinions. But three things are undeniably certain. The FBI/HRT knew Koresh had threatened mass suicide if an attempt was made to breach the compound's walls. They had reliable cause (advice of professional behaviorists) to believe Koresh was mentally unstable. And they knew there were 21 helpless children in that building.
> 
> They knew those things.



And what were they supposed to do? Wait him out, and have him commit mass suicide anyway? 

The thing was, they did wait. But after a certain point, no more cultists were coming out.


----------



## Two Thumbs

Desperado said:


> Did anyone watch the WACO mini series on the Paramount (Spike) network?
> To me it it made the  Branch Davidians and David Koresh look like the victims of an out of control
> federal law enforcement agents, specifically the ATF and the FBI.


that would be b/c our government murdered those people.


----------



## JoeB131

Dale Smith said:


> Personally? I spit and piss on the Feds by exposing them every chance I get and they don't like it that I rescinded my U.S citizenship and no longer under their acts, statutes, codes and ordinances. I have been a thorn in their side for years. They can eat shit and die for all I care. Live free or die.......I will never submit to the Feds.



Poor Cocksucker Dale thinks he's immune to the law because he says so... 



MikeK said:


> What threat did David Koresh or any of the Branch Davidians pose to you, or me, or anyone else? Who did any of those people harm? The answer is no one.



Well, the fact he was selling dangerous weapons to dangerous people. The fact he was molesting children.  You know, those kinds of things. 



MikeK said:


> I find it interesting that Sheriff Jack Harwell, the chief of that county's law enforcement resources, had a more favorable impression and opinion of Koresh and the Branch Davidians than you (and some others) do -- the main difference being Harwell knew the Davidians personally while you did not.



Yeah, well, frankly, being the small town hick sheriff doesn't impress me. ALl this shit was going on right under his nose, and he did nothing about it. 



MikeK said:


> If gun ownership was actually banned what percentage of the population do you believe would voluntarily comply? Do you realize that effective enforcement of such a ban would require methods, and would create a social atmosphere, exceeding anything envisioned in Orwell's _Nineteen Eighty Four_ and Huxley's _Brave New World?_ It would require that ordinary _flat-foot_ cops would be empowered to arbitrarily search you or your car, or to force their way into your home at any time to search for guns.



Uh, guy, we are already in that world with drugs...  And it's nowhere near books you probably haven't read. (Huxley's world isn't anything like Orwell's). 

The reality is, gun ownership has been on the decline for a long time now. 

The number of guns have increased because the crazies keep stockpiling them.


----------



## OklaSusie

Dale Smith said:


> Desperado said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did anyone watch the WACO mini series on the Paramount (Spike) network?
> To me it it made the  Branch Davidians and David Koresh look like the victims of an out of control
> federal law enforcement agents, specifically the ATF and the FBI.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The ATF could have taken Koresh into custody at any time had they wanted. The federal "gubermint" was embarrassed by the Ruby Ridge incident and they wanted revenge and they wanted to demonize and marginalize anyone that was pro-2nd amendment and against a federal, corporate entity that is ran out of the District of Columbia that has it's own corporate charter constitution via the Act of 1871.
> 
> Personally? I spit and piss on the Feds by exposing them every chance I get and they don't like it that I rescinded my U.S citizenship and no longer under their acts, statutes, codes and ordinances. I have been a thorn in their side for years. They can eat shit and die for all I care. Live free or die.......I will never submit to the Feds.
Click to expand...

Oh, brother.  There's that fiction about the Act of 1871 again.  I haven't read most of your fiction for awhile, but at least you are consistent with it.  It's sad to see such delusional garbage being posted by you.  And if you are living in this country you do, indeed, have to comply with federal, state and local laws.  If you rescinded your citizenship and are still living here, you are foolish to think you don't have to comply.  Of course, if you don't violate any laws, then you probably are safe for now.


----------



## MikeK

SassyIrishLass said:


> Dark day when innocent children die like that. Our government should be ashamed


It's good to find even a single message from one whose first thought is the children -- and who understands where the true fault lies.


----------



## Dale Smith

JoeB131 said:


> Dale Smith said:
> 
> 
> 
> Personally? I spit and piss on the Feds by exposing them every chance I get and they don't like it that I rescinded my U.S citizenship and no longer under their acts, statutes, codes and ordinances. I have been a thorn in their side for years. They can eat shit and die for all I care. Live free or die.......I will never submit to the Feds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Poor Cocksucker Dale thinks he's immune to the law because he says so...
> 
> 
> 
> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> What threat did David Koresh or any of the Branch Davidians pose to you, or me, or anyone else? Who did any of those people harm? The answer is no one.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, the fact he was selling dangerous weapons to dangerous people. The fact he was molesting children.  You know, those kinds of things.
> 
> 
> 
> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> I find it interesting that Sheriff Jack Harwell, the chief of that county's law enforcement resources, had a more favorable impression and opinion of Koresh and the Branch Davidians than you (and some others) do -- the main difference being Harwell knew the Davidians personally while you did not.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah, well, frankly, being the small town hick sheriff doesn't impress me. ALl this shit was going on right under his nose, and he did nothing about it.
> 
> 
> 
> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> If gun ownership was actually banned what percentage of the population do you believe would voluntarily comply? Do you realize that effective enforcement of such a ban would require methods, and would create a social atmosphere, exceeding anything envisioned in Orwell's _Nineteen Eighty Four_ and Huxley's _Brave New World?_ It would require that ordinary _flat-foot_ cops would be empowered to arbitrarily search you or your car, or to force their way into your home at any time to search for guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Uh, guy, we are already in that world with drugs...  And it's nowhere near books you probably haven't read. (Huxley's world isn't anything like Orwell's).
> 
> The reality is, gun ownership has been on the decline for a long time now.
> 
> The number of guns have increased because the crazies keep stockpiling them.
Click to expand...



"Poor Cocksucker Dale thinks he's immune to the law because he says so..."

Corporations cannot pass laws....they pass acts, statutes, codes and ordinances for their "de-facto" employees and they enforce them via cohesion contracts and silent consent. I obey all constitutional laws and follow Common Law as a state nationalist instead of a U.S citizen. I know more than you, Joseph because I have made it my mission to know the nature of the cave. You lamely scoff at my postings while laughing nervously, look around hoping others will support you.....it's not happening. You are scared that what I claim is 100% correct thus the lame purse swinging. You have entered a gun fight with a sling-shot, Joseph.


----------



## Dale Smith

OklaSusie said:


> Dale Smith said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Desperado said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did anyone watch the WACO mini series on the Paramount (Spike) network?
> To me it it made the  Branch Davidians and David Koresh look like the victims of an out of control
> federal law enforcement agents, specifically the ATF and the FBI.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The ATF could have taken Koresh into custody at any time had they wanted. The federal "gubermint" was embarrassed by the Ruby Ridge incident and they wanted revenge and they wanted to demonize and marginalize anyone that was pro-2nd amendment and against a federal, corporate entity that is ran out of the District of Columbia that has it's own corporate charter constitution via the Act of 1871.
> 
> Personally? I spit and piss on the Feds by exposing them every chance I get and they don't like it that I rescinded my U.S citizenship and no longer under their acts, statutes, codes and ordinances. I have been a thorn in their side for years. They can eat shit and die for all I care. Live free or die.......I will never submit to the Feds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh, brother.  There's that fiction about the Act of 1871 again.  I haven't read most of your fiction for awhile, but at least you are consistent with it.  It's sad to see such delusional garbage being posted by you.  And if you are living in this country you do, indeed, have to comply with federal, state and local laws.  If you rescinded your citizenship and are still living here, you are foolish to think you don't have to comply.  Of course, if you don't violate any laws, then you probably are safe for now.
Click to expand...



Do I know you? Where have we crossed paths before?  Your piss poor attempts at replying to prior my posts must have been rather lame or I would have recognized you.

BUT, to answer your question? Your beloved "gubermint" is indeed a corporate entity and all of their subsidiaries can be found on the Dun and Bradstreet website...did you know that even the Supreme Court of USA.INC is incorporated? Why does it matter? Go back and use the search feature...plug in my name and "USA.INC" and educate yourself. I am here to help! I obey constitutional law/ Common Law...not acts, statutes, codes and ordinances because I opted out of the UCC-1 and severed my ties to USA.INC.

I know more than you, SusieQ.......learn, grow, evolve.......the key to the shackles and the cage that makes you a prisoner are in your pocket. Knowledge is power......

Hosea Chapter 4, verse 6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.


----------



## JoeB131

OklaSusie said:


> Oh, brother. There's that fiction about the Act of 1871 again. I haven't read most of your fiction for awhile, but at least you are consistent with it. It's sad to see such delusional garbage being posted by you. And if you are living in this country you do, indeed, have to comply with federal, state and local laws. If you rescinded your citizenship and are still living here, you are foolish to think you don't have to comply. Of course, if you don't violate any laws, then you probably are safe for now.



Dale rarely leaves his basement. 



Dale Smith said:


> You lamely scoff at my postings while laughing nervously, look around hoping others will support you.....it's not happening.



No, guy, you see, I'm one of the few people who will tell you that you are crazy and a completely awful person.  Everyone else treats you the way they treat the ragged homeless person who screams at the CIA operative who has cleverly disguised himself as a lamp-post.


----------



## OklaSusie

Dale Smith said:


> OklaSusie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dale Smith said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Desperado said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did anyone watch the WACO mini series on the Paramount (Spike) network?
> To me it it made the  Branch Davidians and David Koresh look like the victims of an out of control
> federal law enforcement agents, specifically the ATF and the FBI.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The ATF could have taken Koresh into custody at any time had they wanted. The federal "gubermint" was embarrassed by the Ruby Ridge incident and they wanted revenge and they wanted to demonize and marginalize anyone that was pro-2nd amendment and against a federal, corporate entity that is ran out of the District of Columbia that has it's own corporate charter constitution via the Act of 1871.
> 
> Personally? I spit and piss on the Feds by exposing them every chance I get and they don't like it that I rescinded my U.S citizenship and no longer under their acts, statutes, codes and ordinances. I have been a thorn in their side for years. They can eat shit and die for all I care. Live free or die.......I will never submit to the Feds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh, brother.  There's that fiction about the Act of 1871 again.  I haven't read most of your fiction for awhile, but at least you are consistent with it.  It's sad to see such delusional garbage being posted by you.  And if you are living in this country you do, indeed, have to comply with federal, state and local laws.  If you rescinded your citizenship and are still living here, you are foolish to think you don't have to comply.  Of course, if you don't violate any laws, then you probably are safe for now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Do I know you? Where have we crossed paths before?  Your piss poor attempts at replying to prior my posts must have been rather lame or I would have recognized you.
> 
> BUT, to answer your question? Your beloved "gubermint" is indeed a corporate entity and all of their subsidiaries can be found on the Dun and Bradstreet website...did you know that even the Supreme Court of USA.INC is incorporated? Why does it matter? Go back and use the search feature...plug in my name and "USA.INC" and educate yourself. I am here to help! I obey constitutional law/ Common Law...not acts, statutes, codes and ordinances because I opted out of the UCC-1 and severed my ties to USA.INC.
> 
> I know more than you, SusieQ.......learn, grow, evolve.......the key to the shackles and the cage that makes you a prisoner are in your pocket. Knowledge is power......
> 
> Hosea Chapter 4, verse 6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Click to expand...

Wow, what a comeback.  More fiction.  And, quoting the Bible?  LOL?  Yeah, you severed your ties--LMAO!  Tell that to a judge if you ever are arrested.  He or she would laugh in your face and/or have you committed for 30 days.  You should do some research about people who have done exactly what you have done.  So I guess you won't be collecting Social Security in the future, right?  After all, you severed all ties!  I bet your employer is still deducting Social Security taxes and Medicare taxes from your paychecks.  What a laugh you are!


----------



## LA RAM FAN

Flash said:


> It was an excellent series.   The story needs to be told.
> 
> However, it was so infuriating watching the jackbooted government assholes that I couldn't even watch the last episode.
> 
> The sad thing is that story was not fiction but actually happen.
> 
> Never trust the government.  They are never going to look after your interest.  They will take your money, fuck you and if they feel like it kill you and your children.  Waco is a great example.



best damn post on this thread,hands down,no contest.


----------



## LA RAM FAN

MikeK said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flash said:
> 
> 
> 
> It was an excellent series. The story needs to be told.
> 
> However, it was so infuriating watching the jackbooted government assholes that I couldn't even watch the last episode.
> 
> The sad thing is that story was not fiction but actually happen.
> 
> Never trust the government. They are never going to look after your interest. They will take your money, fuck you and if they feel like it kill you and your children. Waco is a great example.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really?
> 
> I think the real lesson of Waco should be don't be a religious nut who lets a creep rape your children and sell guns.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Do you believe Koresh was raping children?  Have you read any of the books on this subject, such as _The Ashes of Waco?_
> 
> As far as Koresh "selling guns," why does that upset you?  Do you believe there is something inherently wrong with selling guns?  WalMart sells guns.  So do lots of others, major corporations as well as individuals.
> 
> What you don't know, and possibly don't wish to know, is several of the Branch Davidians were federally licensed firearms dealers and the Branch Davidians operated an active mail-order firearms and accessories business.  In spite of strenuous efforts on the part of the BATF no evidence was ever produced to show the Davidians had broken any gun laws.  Everything the feds had to say about that was fabricated.
> 
> You need to do some reading on the subject.
Click to expand...


No this troll has done NO RESEARCH into this case whatsoever and will never watch any of those videos or read the books.He is a paid shill that has penetrated this site sent here to troll by his handlers.


----------



## LA RAM FAN

Lysistrata said:


> The only fault of the ATF and the FBI was going ahead with the first raid even though people had advance knowledge of it, causing the deaths of at least three agents when people inside the compound opened fire on them. This wasn't the first time that cops screwed up. Remember the 1985 bombing of Philadelphia in an effort to get members of MOVE, when everyone in the MOVE fortified house died, and 61 homes were burnt to the ground:
> 
> 1985: When Philly police dropped a bomb on a residential neighborhood
> 
> Nobody remembers MOVE or thinks that they were murdered by heartless government officials. MOVE seems to have been a Koresh-type outfit. Nobody even remembers the innocent people who were burnt out of 61+ homes in the area as a result of a bomb set off by law enforcement.
> 
> So I don't know how why what happened in Waco should be remembered. Koresh was known for the sexual abuse and grooming of female children and other abuse of male children. Koresh opened fire on agents with an arrest warrant some 51 days before. The fires were set by the Branch Davidians themselves. It was the county sheriff's department that first contacted the ATF.
> 
> Growing Up Under Koresh: Cult Children Tell of Abuses
> 
> Life inside apocalyptic religious sect involved in 1993 Waco siege
> 
> Waco siege - Wikipedia
> 
> How the 1993 Waco standoff began with a bloody gunbattle that federal agents now regret  | Crime | Dallas News
> 
> I was home that day to clean the carpets and watched the entire incident unfold in real time. Even after the fire started, no one attempted to escape. I started screaming at the TV when I saw no one coming out. The fires were set in two different places.
> 
> All of this BS about Waco is just that.



okay you just lost your credibility using wikipedia as a sopurce,they are controlled by the government,they type in whatever they want you to hear.your credibility is shot to hell same as joes is as well with that lie the davidians started the fires,all you have to do is watch one of the videos and it CLEARLY shows a tank with a flame thrower mounted on it shooint flames onto the compound. so yes waco,the version of events given by the government which is the links you have,is bullshit.


----------



## LA RAM FAN

dblack said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> But again, Koresh and his nuts offed themselves, not the government.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course. The government was just there trying to talk them out of it. With incendiary grenades.
Click to expand...


you are making wayyyyy too much sense for these government worshippers to comprehend.so much sense that their brains will overload from logic and common sense that they will have a heart attack.LOL


----------



## LA RAM FAN

dblack said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dblack said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know you don't read all my posts, Joe, but I do.
> 
> Do you like red, blue - or just the traditional black best?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I like not having to share my streets with pedophile cultists with guns...
> 
> that's what I like.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Heh.. yeah, I know what you like. It's in every one of your posts. I honestly don't recall a thread on government overreach where you weren't cheering for the government.
Click to expand...

you have noticed that as well huh?
  he always evades facts and gets angry when he cant counter them and never looks at the evidence in videos you give him.


----------



## LA RAM FAN

MikeK said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So what?  If that was the case, you get a lawyer and you argue it in court.
> 
> 
> 
> You obviously didn't read Dick Reavis' book, _The Ashes of Waco,_ in which he exhaustively quotes Koresh's lawyer, Dick DeGuerin, who was the only private citizen afforded access to Koresh which was limited to one brief visit.  The FBI denied any further access to DeGuerin, citing concern for DeGuerin's safety, which DeGuerin dismissed as subterfuge.
> 
> From the very beginning of that standoff Koresh's demand for access to the media, either directly or through his lawyer, was, except for that one brief visit, strenuously avoided.  The Press (and the public in general) was confined to an area two full miles from the site of the standoff -- supposedly for their safety.  The only thing they (and the public) knew about what was going on was what the FBI told them.
> 
> Dozens of reporters pleaded for access to Koresh by telephone, which was denied.  This blanket of secrecy convinced Koresh that he would never have access to public opinion, whether via the media by telephone from behind the walls of the compound or in a court of Law.  The pivotal question here is *why was Koresh denied this access.*
> 
> Are you not personally offended by it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You don't go shooting at the LEO's serving it (a flawed warrant).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It seems that either you are some kind of LEO, or you're a textbook authoritarian personality, or you're both.  I believe this because I know two New York City police officers who have candidly condemned the actions of the feds at Waco, both BATF and FBI/HRT (Hostage "Rescue" Team).
> 
> Going further; you might not be aware that the jury in a Texas state criminal court *acquitted* each of the Branch Davidians who admitted returning fire when the ATF stormed their residence.  This acquittal was based on the fact that in accordance with Texas state law the ATF's actions were unlawful, excessively aggressive,  and the Davidians had a right to defend their home against them.
> 
> JURY ACQUITS CULT MEMBERS OF MURDER IN WACO SHOOTOUT
> 
> The federal courts take a different view of the situation.  So whichever point of view you happen to agree with will serve as an indicator of your personal orientation in the matter of civil rights and the rights of citizens in relation to the law-enforcement establishment.
Click to expand...

[/QUOTE]

and he NEVER will,Lysistrata obviously did not read it either. we know what a troll joe is.Lets see is SHE is any different and willing to accept the challenge to read it.my guess is no,yours? LOL


----------



## LA RAM FAN

MikeK said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So what?  If that was the case, you get a lawyer and you argue it in court.
> 
> 
> 
> You obviously didn't read Dick Reavis' book, _The Ashes of Waco,_ in which he exhaustively quotes Koresh's lawyer, Dick DeGuerin, who was the only private citizen afforded access to Koresh which was limited to one brief visit.  The FBI denied any further access to DeGuerin, citing concern for DeGuerin's safety, which DeGuerin dismissed as subterfuge.
> 
> From the very beginning of that standoff Koresh's demand for access to the media, either directly or through his lawyer, was, except for that one brief visit, strenuously avoided.  The Press (and the public in general) was confined to an area two full miles from the site of the standoff -- supposedly for their safety.  The only thing they (and the public) knew about what was going on was what the FBI told them.
> 
> Dozens of reporters pleaded for access to Koresh by telephone, which was denied.  This blanket of secrecy convinced Koresh that he would never have access to public opinion, whether via the media by telephone from behind the walls of the compound or in a court of Law.  The pivotal question here is *why was Koresh denied this access.*
> 
> Are you not personally offended by it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You don't go shooting at the LEO's serving it (a flawed warrant).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It seems that either you are some kind of LEO, or you're a textbook authoritarian personality, or you're both.  I believe this because I know two New York City police officers who have candidly condemned the actions of the feds at Waco, both BATF and FBI/HRT (Hostage "Rescue" Team).
> 
> Going further; you might not be aware that the jury in a Texas state criminal court *acquitted* each of the Branch Davidians who admitted returning fire when the ATF stormed their residence.  This acquittal was based on the fact that in accordance with Texas state law the ATF's actions were unlawful, excessively aggressive,  and the Davidians had a right to defend their home against them.
> 
> JURY ACQUITS CULT MEMBERS OF MURDER IN WACO SHOOTOUT
> 
> The federal courts take a different view of the situation.  So whichever point of view you happen to agree with will serve as an indicator of your personal orientation in the matter of civil rights and the rights of citizens in relation to the law-enforcement establishment.
Click to expand...

[/QUOTE]


this is what he is going to do next knowing you OWED his ass here.he ALWAYS gets angry and does this when he is losing an argument and cant counter the evidence.comedy gold.


----------



## Dale Smith

JoeB131 said:


> OklaSusie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, brother. There's that fiction about the Act of 1871 again. I haven't read most of your fiction for awhile, but at least you are consistent with it. It's sad to see such delusional garbage being posted by you. And if you are living in this country you do, indeed, have to comply with federal, state and local laws. If you rescinded your citizenship and are still living here, you are foolish to think you don't have to comply. Of course, if you don't violate any laws, then you probably are safe for now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dale rarely leaves his basement.
> 
> 
> 
> Dale Smith said:
> 
> 
> 
> You lamely scoff at my postings while laughing nervously, look around hoping others will support you.....it's not happening.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, guy, you see, I'm one of the few people who will tell you that you are crazy and a completely awful person.  Everyone else treats you the way they treat the ragged homeless person who screams at the CIA operative who has cleverly disguised himself as a lamp-post.
Click to expand...



Ouch....that pierced my soul like a thousand teeny, tiny, microscopic daggers. Well played, Joseph....well played.

(snicker)


----------



## Dale Smith

OklaSusie said:


> Dale Smith said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OklaSusie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dale Smith said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Desperado said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did anyone watch the WACO mini series on the Paramount (Spike) network?
> To me it it made the  Branch Davidians and David Koresh look like the victims of an out of control
> federal law enforcement agents, specifically the ATF and the FBI.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The ATF could have taken Koresh into custody at any time had they wanted. The federal "gubermint" was embarrassed by the Ruby Ridge incident and they wanted revenge and they wanted to demonize and marginalize anyone that was pro-2nd amendment and against a federal, corporate entity that is ran out of the District of Columbia that has it's own corporate charter constitution via the Act of 1871.
> 
> Personally? I spit and piss on the Feds by exposing them every chance I get and they don't like it that I rescinded my U.S citizenship and no longer under their acts, statutes, codes and ordinances. I have been a thorn in their side for years. They can eat shit and die for all I care. Live free or die.......I will never submit to the Feds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh, brother.  There's that fiction about the Act of 1871 again.  I haven't read most of your fiction for awhile, but at least you are consistent with it.  It's sad to see such delusional garbage being posted by you.  And if you are living in this country you do, indeed, have to comply with federal, state and local laws.  If you rescinded your citizenship and are still living here, you are foolish to think you don't have to comply.  Of course, if you don't violate any laws, then you probably are safe for now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Do I know you? Where have we crossed paths before?  Your piss poor attempts at replying to prior my posts must have been rather lame or I would have recognized you.
> 
> BUT, to answer your question? Your beloved "gubermint" is indeed a corporate entity and all of their subsidiaries can be found on the Dun and Bradstreet website...did you know that even the Supreme Court of USA.INC is incorporated? Why does it matter? Go back and use the search feature...plug in my name and "USA.INC" and educate yourself. I am here to help! I obey constitutional law/ Common Law...not acts, statutes, codes and ordinances because I opted out of the UCC-1 and severed my ties to USA.INC.
> 
> I know more than you, SusieQ.......learn, grow, evolve.......the key to the shackles and the cage that makes you a prisoner are in your pocket. Knowledge is power......
> 
> Hosea Chapter 4, verse 6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wow, what a comeback.  More fiction.  And, quoting the Bible?  LOL?  Yeah, you severed your ties--LMAO!  Tell that to a judge if you ever are arrested.  He or she would laugh in your face and/or have you committed for 30 days.  You should do some research about people who have done exactly what you have done.  So I guess you won't be collecting Social Security in the future, right?  After all, you severed all ties!  I bet your employer is still deducting Social Security taxes and Medicare taxes from your paychecks.  What a laugh you are!
Click to expand...


"Let him who wishes to be deceived, be deceived".........look up that quote and the origin of it. I have no reason to have to go before an administrator that works on behalf of the corporate entity that he/she may be representing. There are remedies and since courts can only deal with a "person" per Black's Law Dictionary 6th edition (as it pertains to statutory law) there are maneuvers that you can use. Going to court and "boarding the ship" subjects you to the jurisdiction of said court. If there is no victim, there is no crime under Common Law. You have much to learn.


----------



## LA RAM FAN

OklaSusie said:


> Dale Smith said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OklaSusie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dale Smith said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Desperado said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did anyone watch the WACO mini series on the Paramount (Spike) network?
> To me it it made the  Branch Davidians and David Koresh look like the victims of an out of control
> federal law enforcement agents, specifically the ATF and the FBI.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The ATF could have taken Koresh into custody at any time had they wanted. The federal "gubermint" was embarrassed by the Ruby Ridge incident and they wanted revenge and they wanted to demonize and marginalize anyone that was pro-2nd amendment and against a federal, corporate entity that is ran out of the District of Columbia that has it's own corporate charter constitution via the Act of 1871.
> 
> Personally? I spit and piss on the Feds by exposing them every chance I get and they don't like it that I rescinded my U.S citizenship and no longer under their acts, statutes, codes and ordinances. I have been a thorn in their side for years. They can eat shit and die for all I care. Live free or die.......I will never submit to the Feds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh, brother.  There's that fiction about the Act of 1871 again.  I haven't read most of your fiction for awhile, but at least you are consistent with it.  It's sad to see such delusional garbage being posted by you.  And if you are living in this country you do, indeed, have to comply with federal, state and local laws.  If you rescinded your citizenship and are still living here, you are foolish to think you don't have to comply.  Of course, if you don't violate any laws, then you probably are safe for now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Do I know you? Where have we crossed paths before?  Your piss poor attempts at replying to prior my posts must have been rather lame or I would have recognized you.
> 
> BUT, to answer your question? Your beloved "gubermint" is indeed a corporate entity and all of their subsidiaries can be found on the Dun and Bradstreet website...did you know that even the Supreme Court of USA.INC is incorporated? Why does it matter? Go back and use the search feature...plug in my name and "USA.INC" and educate yourself. I am here to help! I obey constitutional law/ Common Law...not acts, statutes, codes and ordinances because I opted out of the UCC-1 and severed my ties to USA.INC.
> 
> I know more than you, SusieQ.......learn, grow, evolve.......the key to the shackles and the cage that makes you a prisoner are in your pocket. Knowledge is power......
> 
> Hosea Chapter 4, verse 6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wow, what a comeback.  More fiction.  And, quoting the Bible?  LOL?  Yeah, you severed your ties--LMAO!  Tell that to a judge if you ever are arrested.  He or she would laugh in your face and/or have you committed for 30 days.  You should do some research about people who have done exactly what you have done.  So I guess you won't be collecting Social Security in the future, right?  After all, you severed all ties!  I bet your employer is still deducting Social Security taxes and Medicare taxes from your paychecks.  What a laugh you are!
Click to expand...


Funny that you singled him out. Okay maybe his posts about the bible were funny but You OBVIOUSLY  have not read any of joe,synthyolics or Lysistratas posts because he has NOTHING on them on what a laugh THEY are.
 at least he is not a sad excuse for a human being like THEY are.


----------



## Lysistrata

LA RAM FAN said:


> Lysistrata said:
> 
> 
> 
> The only fault of the ATF and the FBI was going ahead with the first raid even though people had advance knowledge of it, causing the deaths of at least three agents when people inside the compound opened fire on them. This wasn't the first time that cops screwed up. Remember the 1985 bombing of Philadelphia in an effort to get members of MOVE, when everyone in the MOVE fortified house died, and 61 homes were burnt to the ground:
> 
> 1985: When Philly police dropped a bomb on a residential neighborhood
> 
> Nobody remembers MOVE or thinks that they were murdered by heartless government officials. MOVE seems to have been a Koresh-type outfit. Nobody even remembers the innocent people who were burnt out of 61+ homes in the area as a result of a bomb set off by law enforcement.
> 
> So I don't know how why what happened in Waco should be remembered. Koresh was known for the sexual abuse and grooming of female children and other abuse of male children. Koresh opened fire on agents with an arrest warrant some 51 days before. The fires were set by the Branch Davidians themselves. It was the county sheriff's department that first contacted the ATF.
> 
> Growing Up Under Koresh: Cult Children Tell of Abuses
> 
> Life inside apocalyptic religious sect involved in 1993 Waco siege
> 
> Waco siege - Wikipedia
> 
> How the 1993 Waco standoff began with a bloody gunbattle that federal agents now regret  | Crime | Dallas News
> 
> I was home that day to clean the carpets and watched the entire incident unfold in real time. Even after the fire started, no one attempted to escape. I started screaming at the TV when I saw no one coming out. The fires were set in two different places.
> 
> All of this BS about Waco is just that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> okay you just lost your credibility using wikipedia as a sopurce,they are controlled by the government,they type in whatever they want you to hear.your credibility is shot to hell same as joes is as well with that lie the davidians started the fires,all you have to do is watch one of the videos and it CLEARLY shows a tank with a flame thrower mounted on it shooint flames onto the compound. so yes waco,the version of events given by the government which is the links you have,is bullshit.
Click to expand...


I saw the whole thing in real time. That was gas being shot. The vehicle did not have a flamethrower on it. The fires started in two separate places, one well away from the vehicle. As I have said before, no one came out of the building. Why not. wouldn't you leave a two-story building if it were burning?

Why did the Branch Davidians open fire on the federal agents, killing and wounding several, 51 days before the fire?

Why did they send some children away and not all of them? Some of the saved children even said in advance that Koresh was going to burn the place down.

Why do the right-winger like to protect and honor child rapists? Most of us find the prospect of a child being raped disgusting, not "funny."

How would you have gotten out the women and children being held in this compound by a group of insane and well-armed men, capable of rape and murder?

Law enforcement lets these standoffs last far too long. We saw that with the Bundy thing in Oregon, too. The Bundy group should have had its asses kicked out and jailed weeks before. This stupid nonsense by the tiny-penis fake men has got to stop. Now. Their stupid theatrics are not more important than the safety of society.


----------



## Dale Smith

Lysistrata said:


> LA RAM FAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lysistrata said:
> 
> 
> 
> The only fault of the ATF and the FBI was going ahead with the first raid even though people had advance knowledge of it, causing the deaths of at least three agents when people inside the compound opened fire on them. This wasn't the first time that cops screwed up. Remember the 1985 bombing of Philadelphia in an effort to get members of MOVE, when everyone in the MOVE fortified house died, and 61 homes were burnt to the ground:
> 
> 1985: When Philly police dropped a bomb on a residential neighborhood
> 
> Nobody remembers MOVE or thinks that they were murdered by heartless government officials. MOVE seems to have been a Koresh-type outfit. Nobody even remembers the innocent people who were burnt out of 61+ homes in the area as a result of a bomb set off by law enforcement.
> 
> So I don't know how why what happened in Waco should be remembered. Koresh was known for the sexual abuse and grooming of female children and other abuse of male children. Koresh opened fire on agents with an arrest warrant some 51 days before. The fires were set by the Branch Davidians themselves. It was the county sheriff's department that first contacted the ATF.
> 
> Growing Up Under Koresh: Cult Children Tell of Abuses
> 
> Life inside apocalyptic religious sect involved in 1993 Waco siege
> 
> Waco siege - Wikipedia
> 
> How the 1993 Waco standoff began with a bloody gunbattle that federal agents now regret  | Crime | Dallas News
> 
> I was home that day to clean the carpets and watched the entire incident unfold in real time. Even after the fire started, no one attempted to escape. I started screaming at the TV when I saw no one coming out. The fires were set in two different places.
> 
> All of this BS about Waco is just that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> okay you just lost your credibility using wikipedia as a sopurce,they are controlled by the government,they type in whatever they want you to hear.your credibility is shot to hell same as joes is as well with that lie the davidians started the fires,all you have to do is watch one of the videos and it CLEARLY shows a tank with a flame thrower mounted on it shooint flames onto the compound. so yes waco,the version of events given by the government which is the links you have,is bullshit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I saw the whole thing in real time. That was gas being shot. The vehicle did not have a flamethrower on it. The fires started in two separate places, one well away from the vehicle. As I have said before, no one came out of the building. Why not. wouldn't you leave a two-story building if it were burning?
> 
> Why did the Branch Davidians open fire on the federal agents, killing and wounding several, 51 days before the fire?
> 
> Why did they send some children away and not all of them? Some of the saved children even said in advance that Koresh was going to burn the place down.
> 
> Why do the right-winger like to protect and honor child rapists? Most of us find the prospect of a child being raped disgusting, not "funny."
> 
> How would you have gotten out the women and children being held in this compound by a group of insane and well-armed men, capable of rape and murder?
> 
> Law enforcement lets these standoffs last far too long. We saw that with the Bundy thing in Oregon, too. The Bundy group should have had its asses kicked out and jailed weeks before. This stupid nonsense by the tiny-penis fake men has got to stop. Now. Their stupid theatrics are not more important than the safety of society.
Click to expand...



Bull-fucking shit....don't try that shit on me. I was in Dallas, Texas and watched the whole thing live by one of the Dallas affiliates. They fried the people...those that were left any way. They had to in order to cover up their crime. Koresh opened the door when the raid started hitting him and killing one of the people in the house.  Stop being such a sheeple.

BTW, you OBVIOUSLY don't have a fucking clue as to what the Oregon stand-off was about or how Lavoy Finicum was shot in the back by a gutless Fed...but most little commies don't so you have plenty of company in the party of "stupid".


----------



## Lysistrata

Dale Smith said:


> Lysistrata said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LA RAM FAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lysistrata said:
> 
> 
> 
> The only fault of the ATF and the FBI was going ahead with the first raid even though people had advance knowledge of it, causing the deaths of at least three agents when people inside the compound opened fire on them. This wasn't the first time that cops screwed up. Remember the 1985 bombing of Philadelphia in an effort to get members of MOVE, when everyone in the MOVE fortified house died, and 61 homes were burnt to the ground:
> 
> 1985: When Philly police dropped a bomb on a residential neighborhood
> 
> Nobody remembers MOVE or thinks that they were murdered by heartless government officials. MOVE seems to have been a Koresh-type outfit. Nobody even remembers the innocent people who were burnt out of 61+ homes in the area as a result of a bomb set off by law enforcement.
> 
> So I don't know how why what happened in Waco should be remembered. Koresh was known for the sexual abuse and grooming of female children and other abuse of male children. Koresh opened fire on agents with an arrest warrant some 51 days before. The fires were set by the Branch Davidians themselves. It was the county sheriff's department that first contacted the ATF.
> 
> Growing Up Under Koresh: Cult Children Tell of Abuses
> 
> Life inside apocalyptic religious sect involved in 1993 Waco siege
> 
> Waco siege - Wikipedia
> 
> How the 1993 Waco standoff began with a bloody gunbattle that federal agents now regret  | Crime | Dallas News
> 
> I was home that day to clean the carpets and watched the entire incident unfold in real time. Even after the fire started, no one attempted to escape. I started screaming at the TV when I saw no one coming out. The fires were set in two different places.
> 
> All of this BS about Waco is just that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> okay you just lost your credibility using wikipedia as a sopurce,they are controlled by the government,they type in whatever they want you to hear.your credibility is shot to hell same as joes is as well with that lie the davidians started the fires,all you have to do is watch one of the videos and it CLEARLY shows a tank with a flame thrower mounted on it shooint flames onto the compound. so yes waco,the version of events given by the government which is the links you have,is bullshit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I saw the whole thing in real time. That was gas being shot. The vehicle did not have a flamethrower on it. The fires started in two separate places, one well away from the vehicle. As I have said before, no one came out of the building. Why not. wouldn't you leave a two-story building if it were burning?
> 
> Why did the Branch Davidians open fire on the federal agents, killing and wounding several, 51 days before the fire?
> 
> Why did they send some children away and not all of them? Some of the saved children even said in advance that Koresh was going to burn the place down.
> 
> Why do the right-winger like to protect and honor child rapists? Most of us find the prospect of a child being raped disgusting, not "funny."
> 
> How would you have gotten out the women and children being held in this compound by a group of insane and well-armed men, capable of rape and murder?
> 
> Law enforcement lets these standoffs last far too long. We saw that with the Bundy thing in Oregon, too. The Bundy group should have had its asses kicked out and jailed weeks before. This stupid nonsense by the tiny-penis fake men has got to stop. Now. Their stupid theatrics are not more important than the safety of society.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Bull-fucking shit....don't try that shit on me. I was in Dallas, Texas and watched the whole thing live by one of the Dallas affiliates. They fried the people...those that were left any way. They had to in order to cover up their crime. Koresh opened the door when the raid started hitting him and killing one of the people in the house.  Stop being such a sheeple.
> 
> BTW, you OBVIOUSLY don't have a fucking clue as to what the Oregon stand-off was about or how Lavoy Finicum was shot in the back by a gutless Fed...but most little commies don't so you have plenty of company in the party of "stupid".
Click to expand...


I have to call BS on you. Answer me why there was a gunfight 51 days earlier. Answer me as to how it was that no one attempted to flee when the fire started. Answer me why right-wingers defend child rapists and groomers.

As for Oregon, those little bitches weren't supposed to be there doing what they did in the first place, so their motive is entirely irrelevant. Finicum said days earlier that he wanted to die, and the little skank was killed attempting to draw a weapon. No great loss. He should have kept his hands in the air and awaited a pat-down search. Cops get off for killing unarmed black men all the time, saying that they perceived that they were in danger. Finicum was armed., and he certainly looked like he was going for it.

And I'm a "little commie?" You have no way of knowing what my views on economics are. How childish of you.


----------



## Dale Smith

Lysistrata said:


> Dale Smith said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lysistrata said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LA RAM FAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lysistrata said:
> 
> 
> 
> The only fault of the ATF and the FBI was going ahead with the first raid even though people had advance knowledge of it, causing the deaths of at least three agents when people inside the compound opened fire on them. This wasn't the first time that cops screwed up. Remember the 1985 bombing of Philadelphia in an effort to get members of MOVE, when everyone in the MOVE fortified house died, and 61 homes were burnt to the ground:
> 
> 1985: When Philly police dropped a bomb on a residential neighborhood
> 
> Nobody remembers MOVE or thinks that they were murdered by heartless government officials. MOVE seems to have been a Koresh-type outfit. Nobody even remembers the innocent people who were burnt out of 61+ homes in the area as a result of a bomb set off by law enforcement.
> 
> So I don't know how why what happened in Waco should be remembered. Koresh was known for the sexual abuse and grooming of female children and other abuse of male children. Koresh opened fire on agents with an arrest warrant some 51 days before. The fires were set by the Branch Davidians themselves. It was the county sheriff's department that first contacted the ATF.
> 
> Growing Up Under Koresh: Cult Children Tell of Abuses
> 
> Life inside apocalyptic religious sect involved in 1993 Waco siege
> 
> Waco siege - Wikipedia
> 
> How the 1993 Waco standoff began with a bloody gunbattle that federal agents now regret  | Crime | Dallas News
> 
> I was home that day to clean the carpets and watched the entire incident unfold in real time. Even after the fire started, no one attempted to escape. I started screaming at the TV when I saw no one coming out. The fires were set in two different places.
> 
> All of this BS about Waco is just that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> okay you just lost your credibility using wikipedia as a sopurce,they are controlled by the government,they type in whatever they want you to hear.your credibility is shot to hell same as joes is as well with that lie the davidians started the fires,all you have to do is watch one of the videos and it CLEARLY shows a tank with a flame thrower mounted on it shooint flames onto the compound. so yes waco,the version of events given by the government which is the links you have,is bullshit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I saw the whole thing in real time. That was gas being shot. The vehicle did not have a flamethrower on it. The fires started in two separate places, one well away from the vehicle. As I have said before, no one came out of the building. Why not. wouldn't you leave a two-story building if it were burning?
> 
> Why did the Branch Davidians open fire on the federal agents, killing and wounding several, 51 days before the fire?
> 
> Why did they send some children away and not all of them? Some of the saved children even said in advance that Koresh was going to burn the place down.
> 
> Why do the right-winger like to protect and honor child rapists? Most of us find the prospect of a child being raped disgusting, not "funny."
> 
> How would you have gotten out the women and children being held in this compound by a group of insane and well-armed men, capable of rape and murder?
> 
> Law enforcement lets these standoffs last far too long. We saw that with the Bundy thing in Oregon, too. The Bundy group should have had its asses kicked out and jailed weeks before. This stupid nonsense by the tiny-penis fake men has got to stop. Now. Their stupid theatrics are not more important than the safety of society.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Bull-fucking shit....don't try that shit on me. I was in Dallas, Texas and watched the whole thing live by one of the Dallas affiliates. They fried the people...those that were left any way. They had to in order to cover up their crime. Koresh opened the door when the raid started hitting him and killing one of the people in the house.  Stop being such a sheeple.
> 
> BTW, you OBVIOUSLY don't have a fucking clue as to what the Oregon stand-off was about or how Lavoy Finicum was shot in the back by a gutless Fed...but most little commies don't so you have plenty of company in the party of "stupid".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have to call BS on you. Answer me why there was a gunfight 51 days earlier. Answer me as to how it was that no one attempted to flee when the fire started.
> As for Oregon, those little bitches weren't supposed to be there doing what they did in the first place, so their motive is entirely irrelevant. Finicum said days earlier that he wanted to die, and the little skank was killed attempting to draw a weapon. No great loss. He should have kept his hands in the air and awaited a pat-down search. Cops get off for killing unarmed black men all the time, saying that they perceived that they were in danger. Finicum was armed., and he certainly looked like he was going for it.
Click to expand...


Are you fucking dense, deaf or both? The first thing the weekend Rambos did was shoot at Koresh when he opened the door wounding him and killing an unarmed man. It certainly appears from the tale of the tape that it was the last mighty ATF "warrior" that fired his machine gun blindly through the window probably killing his fellow jack-booted storm troopers.


As far as Finicum goes, his hands were up and he was hit in the side with a rubber bullet and when he reacted, they shot him 9 times. They then turned their attention to the SUV hitting Ryan Bundy in the shoulder. As usual, you don't know diddly squat and you would have been a good little nazi citizen "Sieg Heiling"  your ass off when der fuehrer passed by.


----------



## OklaSusie

LA RAM FAN said:


> OklaSusie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dale Smith said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OklaSusie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dale Smith said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Desperado said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did anyone watch the WACO mini series on the Paramount (Spike) network?
> To me it it made the  Branch Davidians and David Koresh look like the victims of an out of control
> federal law enforcement agents, specifically the ATF and the FBI.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The ATF could have taken Koresh into custody at any time had they wanted. The federal "gubermint" was embarrassed by the Ruby Ridge incident and they wanted revenge and they wanted to demonize and marginalize anyone that was pro-2nd amendment and against a federal, corporate entity that is ran out of the District of Columbia that has it's own corporate charter constitution via the Act of 1871.
> 
> Personally? I spit and piss on the Feds by exposing them every chance I get and they don't like it that I rescinded my U.S citizenship and no longer under their acts, statutes, codes and ordinances. I have been a thorn in their side for years. They can eat shit and die for all I care. Live free or die.......I will never submit to the Feds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh, brother.  There's that fiction about the Act of 1871 again.  I haven't read most of your fiction for awhile, but at least you are consistent with it.  It's sad to see such delusional garbage being posted by you.  And if you are living in this country you do, indeed, have to comply with federal, state and local laws.  If you rescinded your citizenship and are still living here, you are foolish to think you don't have to comply.  Of course, if you don't violate any laws, then you probably are safe for now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Do I know you? Where have we crossed paths before?  Your piss poor attempts at replying to prior my posts must have been rather lame or I would have recognized you.
> 
> BUT, to answer your question? Your beloved "gubermint" is indeed a corporate entity and all of their subsidiaries can be found on the Dun and Bradstreet website...did you know that even the Supreme Court of USA.INC is incorporated? Why does it matter? Go back and use the search feature...plug in my name and "USA.INC" and educate yourself. I am here to help! I obey constitutional law/ Common Law...not acts, statutes, codes and ordinances because I opted out of the UCC-1 and severed my ties to USA.INC.
> 
> I know more than you, SusieQ.......learn, grow, evolve.......the key to the shackles and the cage that makes you a prisoner are in your pocket. Knowledge is power......
> 
> Hosea Chapter 4, verse 6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wow, what a comeback.  More fiction.  And, quoting the Bible?  LOL?  Yeah, you severed your ties--LMAO!  Tell that to a judge if you ever are arrested.  He or she would laugh in your face and/or have you committed for 30 days.  You should do some research about people who have done exactly what you have done.  So I guess you won't be collecting Social Security in the future, right?  After all, you severed all ties!  I bet your employer is still deducting Social Security taxes and Medicare taxes from your paychecks.  What a laugh you are!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Funny that you singled him out. Okay maybe his posts about the bible were funny but You OBVIOUSLY  have not read any of joe,synthyolics or Lysistratas posts because he has NOTHING on them on what a laugh THEY are.
> at least he is not a sad excuse for a human being like THEY are.
Click to expand...

Whether he is a sad excuse for a human being remains debatable.  Part of me thinks he is, but another part of me thinks he may be schizophrenic, and it is because of that I really don't want to be responsible--directly or indirectly--for triggering him if he is.  Separating fact from fiction is difficult for individuals such as Dale.  He could also have paranoid delusional trends.  It is difficult to imagine he actually believes the content of many of his comments here.


----------



## JoeB131

LA RAM FAN said:


> No this troll has done NO RESEARCH into this case whatsoever and will never watch any of those videos or read the books.He is a paid shill that has penetrated this site sent here to troll by his handlers.



Actually, I've read a lot of books on Waco... 

I just don't get weepy about pedophile cultists killing themselves. 

I'm more like, "More food for me!"


----------



## Dale Smith

OklaSusie said:


> LA RAM FAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OklaSusie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dale Smith said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OklaSusie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dale Smith said:
> 
> 
> 
> The ATF could have taken Koresh into custody at any time had they wanted. The federal "gubermint" was embarrassed by the Ruby Ridge incident and they wanted revenge and they wanted to demonize and marginalize anyone that was pro-2nd amendment and against a federal, corporate entity that is ran out of the District of Columbia that has it's own corporate charter constitution via the Act of 1871.
> 
> Personally? I spit and piss on the Feds by exposing them every chance I get and they don't like it that I rescinded my U.S citizenship and no longer under their acts, statutes, codes and ordinances. I have been a thorn in their side for years. They can eat shit and die for all I care. Live free or die.......I will never submit to the Feds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, brother.  There's that fiction about the Act of 1871 again.  I haven't read most of your fiction for awhile, but at least you are consistent with it.  It's sad to see such delusional garbage being posted by you.  And if you are living in this country you do, indeed, have to comply with federal, state and local laws.  If you rescinded your citizenship and are still living here, you are foolish to think you don't have to comply.  Of course, if you don't violate any laws, then you probably are safe for now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Do I know you? Where have we crossed paths before?  Your piss poor attempts at replying to prior my posts must have been rather lame or I would have recognized you.
> 
> BUT, to answer your question? Your beloved "gubermint" is indeed a corporate entity and all of their subsidiaries can be found on the Dun and Bradstreet website...did you know that even the Supreme Court of USA.INC is incorporated? Why does it matter? Go back and use the search feature...plug in my name and "USA.INC" and educate yourself. I am here to help! I obey constitutional law/ Common Law...not acts, statutes, codes and ordinances because I opted out of the UCC-1 and severed my ties to USA.INC.
> 
> I know more than you, SusieQ.......learn, grow, evolve.......the key to the shackles and the cage that makes you a prisoner are in your pocket. Knowledge is power......
> 
> Hosea Chapter 4, verse 6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wow, what a comeback.  More fiction.  And, quoting the Bible?  LOL?  Yeah, you severed your ties--LMAO!  Tell that to a judge if you ever are arrested.  He or she would laugh in your face and/or have you committed for 30 days.  You should do some research about people who have done exactly what you have done.  So I guess you won't be collecting Social Security in the future, right?  After all, you severed all ties!  I bet your employer is still deducting Social Security taxes and Medicare taxes from your paychecks.  What a laugh you are!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Funny that you singled him out. Okay maybe his posts about the bible were funny but You OBVIOUSLY  have not read any of joe,synthyolics or Lysistratas posts because he has NOTHING on them on what a laugh THEY are.
> at least he is not a sad excuse for a human being like THEY are.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Whether he is a sad excuse for a human being remains debatable.  Part of me thinks he is, but another part of me thinks he may be schizophrenic, and it is because of that I really don't want to be responsible--directly or indirectly--for triggering him if he is.  Separating fact from fiction is difficult for individuals such as Dale.  He could also have paranoid delusional trends.  It is difficult to imagine he actually believes the content of many of his comments here.
Click to expand...




OklaSusie said:


> LA RAM FAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OklaSusie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dale Smith said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OklaSusie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dale Smith said:
> 
> 
> 
> The ATF could have taken Koresh into custody at any time had they wanted. The federal "gubermint" was embarrassed by the Ruby Ridge incident and they wanted revenge and they wanted to demonize and marginalize anyone that was pro-2nd amendment and against a federal, corporate entity that is ran out of the District of Columbia that has it's own corporate charter constitution via the Act of 1871.
> 
> Personally? I spit and piss on the Feds by exposing them every chance I get and they don't like it that I rescinded my U.S citizenship and no longer under their acts, statutes, codes and ordinances. I have been a thorn in their side for years. They can eat shit and die for all I care. Live free or die.......I will never submit to the Feds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, brother.  There's that fiction about the Act of 1871 again.  I haven't read most of your fiction for awhile, but at least you are consistent with it.  It's sad to see such delusional garbage being posted by you.  And if you are living in this country you do, indeed, have to comply with federal, state and local laws.  If you rescinded your citizenship and are still living here, you are foolish to think you don't have to comply.  Of course, if you don't violate any laws, then you probably are safe for now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Do I know you? Where have we crossed paths before?  Your piss poor attempts at replying to prior my posts must have been rather lame or I would have recognized you.
> 
> BUT, to answer your question? Your beloved "gubermint" is indeed a corporate entity and all of their subsidiaries can be found on the Dun and Bradstreet website...did you know that even the Supreme Court of USA.INC is incorporated? Why does it matter? Go back and use the search feature...plug in my name and "USA.INC" and educate yourself. I am here to help! I obey constitutional law/ Common Law...not acts, statutes, codes and ordinances because I opted out of the UCC-1 and severed my ties to USA.INC.
> 
> I know more than you, SusieQ.......learn, grow, evolve.......the key to the shackles and the cage that makes you a prisoner are in your pocket. Knowledge is power......
> 
> Hosea Chapter 4, verse 6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wow, what a comeback.  More fiction.  And, quoting the Bible?  LOL?  Yeah, you severed your ties--LMAO!  Tell that to a judge if you ever are arrested.  He or she would laugh in your face and/or have you committed for 30 days.  You should do some research about people who have done exactly what you have done.  So I guess you won't be collecting Social Security in the future, right?  After all, you severed all ties!  I bet your employer is still deducting Social Security taxes and Medicare taxes from your paychecks.  What a laugh you are!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Funny that you singled him out. Okay maybe his posts about the bible were funny but You OBVIOUSLY  have not read any of joe,synthyolics or Lysistratas posts because he has NOTHING on them on what a laugh THEY are.
> at least he is not a sad excuse for a human being like THEY are.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Whether he is a sad excuse for a human being remains debatable.  Part of me thinks he is, but another part of me thinks he may be schizophrenic, and it is because of that I really don't want to be responsible--directly or indirectly--for triggering him if he is.  Separating fact from fiction is difficult for individuals such as Dale.  He could also have paranoid delusional trends.  It is difficult to imagine he actually believes the content of many of his comments here.
Click to expand...

 

Susie, I know what I know and I am very secure in my assertions. There isn't anyone here outside of Bulldog, that has ever done more than play the "Uh-Uh?!?!?" card....that's not debate, it's not discussion nor is it in anyway an attempt to try and understand how things really work. You all have been lied to and made into debt slaves with no allodial rights to property. You work up to four months a year just to pay "gubermint" taxes. That's a third of the paper scrip you earn that we call "Federal Reserve notes". Your inability to think for yourself coupled with your lack of intellectual curiosity is why this debt slavery system continues to thrive.

Hope this helps!


----------



## JoeB131

Dale Smith said:


> Susie, I know what I know and I am very secure in my assertions. There isn't anyone here outside of Bulldog, that has ever done more than play the "Uh-Uh?!?!?" card....that's not debate, it's not discussion nor is it in anyway an attempt to try and understand how things really work.



Yup.  all you really can do with people like you is say, "Uh-uh" when they claim lizard people in a secret basement are molesting kids at the behest of the Jesuit conspiracy that killed Lincoln, or whatever crazy shit comes out of your mouth. 



Dale Smith said:


> You all have been lied to and made into debt slaves with no allodial rights to property. You work up to four months a year just to pay "gubermint" taxes. That's a third of the paper scrip you earn that we call "Federal Reserve notes". Your inability to think for yourself coupled with your lack of intellectual curiosity is why this debt slavery system continues to thrive.



Um, no, we work up to four months a year to pay for infrastructure, security, retirement, public works and market enforcement... 

It's called "Civilization".... it's kind of awesome. Unless you think it's all a plot by the Lizard Men to enslave you.


----------



## OklaSusie

Dale Smith said:


> OklaSusie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LA RAM FAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OklaSusie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dale Smith said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OklaSusie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, brother.  There's that fiction about the Act of 1871 again.  I haven't read most of your fiction for awhile, but at least you are consistent with it.  It's sad to see such delusional garbage being posted by you.  And if you are living in this country you do, indeed, have to comply with federal, state and local laws.  If you rescinded your citizenship and are still living here, you are foolish to think you don't have to comply.  Of course, if you don't violate any laws, then you probably are safe for now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do I know you? Where have we crossed paths before?  Your piss poor attempts at replying to prior my posts must have been rather lame or I would have recognized you.
> 
> BUT, to answer your question? Your beloved "gubermint" is indeed a corporate entity and all of their subsidiaries can be found on the Dun and Bradstreet website...did you know that even the Supreme Court of USA.INC is incorporated? Why does it matter? Go back and use the search feature...plug in my name and "USA.INC" and educate yourself. I am here to help! I obey constitutional law/ Common Law...not acts, statutes, codes and ordinances because I opted out of the UCC-1 and severed my ties to USA.INC.
> 
> I know more than you, SusieQ.......learn, grow, evolve.......the key to the shackles and the cage that makes you a prisoner are in your pocket. Knowledge is power......
> 
> Hosea Chapter 4, verse 6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wow, what a comeback.  More fiction.  And, quoting the Bible?  LOL?  Yeah, you severed your ties--LMAO!  Tell that to a judge if you ever are arrested.  He or she would laugh in your face and/or have you committed for 30 days.  You should do some research about people who have done exactly what you have done.  So I guess you won't be collecting Social Security in the future, right?  After all, you severed all ties!  I bet your employer is still deducting Social Security taxes and Medicare taxes from your paychecks.  What a laugh you are!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Funny that you singled him out. Okay maybe his posts about the bible were funny but You OBVIOUSLY  have not read any of joe,synthyolics or Lysistratas posts because he has NOTHING on them on what a laugh THEY are.
> at least he is not a sad excuse for a human being like THEY are.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Whether he is a sad excuse for a human being remains debatable.  Part of me thinks he is, but another part of me thinks he may be schizophrenic, and it is because of that I really don't want to be responsible--directly or indirectly--for triggering him if he is.  Separating fact from fiction is difficult for individuals such as Dale.  He could also have paranoid delusional trends.  It is difficult to imagine he actually believes the content of many of his comments here.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OklaSusie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LA RAM FAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OklaSusie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dale Smith said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OklaSusie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, brother.  There's that fiction about the Act of 1871 again.  I haven't read most of your fiction for awhile, but at least you are consistent with it.  It's sad to see such delusional garbage being posted by you.  And if you are living in this country you do, indeed, have to comply with federal, state and local laws.  If you rescinded your citizenship and are still living here, you are foolish to think you don't have to comply.  Of course, if you don't violate any laws, then you probably are safe for now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Do I know you? Where have we crossed paths before?  Your piss poor attempts at replying to prior my posts must have been rather lame or I would have recognized you.
> 
> BUT, to answer your question? Your beloved "gubermint" is indeed a corporate entity and all of their subsidiaries can be found on the Dun and Bradstreet website...did you know that even the Supreme Court of USA.INC is incorporated? Why does it matter? Go back and use the search feature...plug in my name and "USA.INC" and educate yourself. I am here to help! I obey constitutional law/ Common Law...not acts, statutes, codes and ordinances because I opted out of the UCC-1 and severed my ties to USA.INC.
> 
> I know more than you, SusieQ.......learn, grow, evolve.......the key to the shackles and the cage that makes you a prisoner are in your pocket. Knowledge is power......
> 
> Hosea Chapter 4, verse 6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wow, what a comeback.  More fiction.  And, quoting the Bible?  LOL?  Yeah, you severed your ties--LMAO!  Tell that to a judge if you ever are arrested.  He or she would laugh in your face and/or have you committed for 30 days.  You should do some research about people who have done exactly what you have done.  So I guess you won't be collecting Social Security in the future, right?  After all, you severed all ties!  I bet your employer is still deducting Social Security taxes and Medicare taxes from your paychecks.  What a laugh you are!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Funny that you singled him out. Okay maybe his posts about the bible were funny but You OBVIOUSLY  have not read any of joe,synthyolics or Lysistratas posts because he has NOTHING on them on what a laugh THEY are.
> at least he is not a sad excuse for a human being like THEY are.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Whether he is a sad excuse for a human being remains debatable.  Part of me thinks he is, but another part of me thinks he may be schizophrenic, and it is because of that I really don't want to be responsible--directly or indirectly--for triggering him if he is.  Separating fact from fiction is difficult for individuals such as Dale.  He could also have paranoid delusional trends.  It is difficult to imagine he actually believes the content of many of his comments here.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Susie, I know what I know and I am very secure in my assertions. There isn't anyone here outside of Bulldog, that has ever done more than play the "Uh-Uh?!?!?" card....that's not debate, it's not discussion nor is it in anyway an attempt to try and understand how things really work. You all have been lied to and made into debt slaves with no allodial rights to property. You work up to four months a year just to pay "gubermint" taxes. That's a third of the paper scrip you earn that we call "Federal Reserve notes". Your inability to think for yourself coupled with your lack of intellectual curiosity is why this debt slavery system continues to thrive.
> 
> Hope this helps!
Click to expand...

"Your inability to think for yourself coupled with your lack of intellectual curiosity is why this debt slavery system continues to thrive."

Well, that's another way of putting things, taken straight from numerous tinfoiling scripts.  Here's an older, more general way of putting it:  "I am not nuts; rather, the rest of the world is."  But, as a human being, you are entitled to ownership of your "mind", no matter how damaged it is.  And trying to refute or debunk someone who may be beyond the point of no return is generally very futile and nonproductive.  Only the most learned professionals are the only ones who should even attempt to do so.


----------



## Dale Smith

OklaSusie said:


> Dale Smith said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OklaSusie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LA RAM FAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OklaSusie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dale Smith said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do I know you? Where have we crossed paths before?  Your piss poor attempts at replying to prior my posts must have been rather lame or I would have recognized you.
> 
> BUT, to answer your question? Your beloved "gubermint" is indeed a corporate entity and all of their subsidiaries can be found on the Dun and Bradstreet website...did you know that even the Supreme Court of USA.INC is incorporated? Why does it matter? Go back and use the search feature...plug in my name and "USA.INC" and educate yourself. I am here to help! I obey constitutional law/ Common Law...not acts, statutes, codes and ordinances because I opted out of the UCC-1 and severed my ties to USA.INC.
> 
> I know more than you, SusieQ.......learn, grow, evolve.......the key to the shackles and the cage that makes you a prisoner are in your pocket. Knowledge is power......
> 
> Hosea Chapter 4, verse 6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, what a comeback.  More fiction.  And, quoting the Bible?  LOL?  Yeah, you severed your ties--LMAO!  Tell that to a judge if you ever are arrested.  He or she would laugh in your face and/or have you committed for 30 days.  You should do some research about people who have done exactly what you have done.  So I guess you won't be collecting Social Security in the future, right?  After all, you severed all ties!  I bet your employer is still deducting Social Security taxes and Medicare taxes from your paychecks.  What a laugh you are!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Funny that you singled him out. Okay maybe his posts about the bible were funny but You OBVIOUSLY  have not read any of joe,synthyolics or Lysistratas posts because he has NOTHING on them on what a laugh THEY are.
> at least he is not a sad excuse for a human being like THEY are.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Whether he is a sad excuse for a human being remains debatable.  Part of me thinks he is, but another part of me thinks he may be schizophrenic, and it is because of that I really don't want to be responsible--directly or indirectly--for triggering him if he is.  Separating fact from fiction is difficult for individuals such as Dale.  He could also have paranoid delusional trends.  It is difficult to imagine he actually believes the content of many of his comments here.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OklaSusie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LA RAM FAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OklaSusie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dale Smith said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do I know you? Where have we crossed paths before?  Your piss poor attempts at replying to prior my posts must have been rather lame or I would have recognized you.
> 
> BUT, to answer your question? Your beloved "gubermint" is indeed a corporate entity and all of their subsidiaries can be found on the Dun and Bradstreet website...did you know that even the Supreme Court of USA.INC is incorporated? Why does it matter? Go back and use the search feature...plug in my name and "USA.INC" and educate yourself. I am here to help! I obey constitutional law/ Common Law...not acts, statutes, codes and ordinances because I opted out of the UCC-1 and severed my ties to USA.INC.
> 
> I know more than you, SusieQ.......learn, grow, evolve.......the key to the shackles and the cage that makes you a prisoner are in your pocket. Knowledge is power......
> 
> Hosea Chapter 4, verse 6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wow, what a comeback.  More fiction.  And, quoting the Bible?  LOL?  Yeah, you severed your ties--LMAO!  Tell that to a judge if you ever are arrested.  He or she would laugh in your face and/or have you committed for 30 days.  You should do some research about people who have done exactly what you have done.  So I guess you won't be collecting Social Security in the future, right?  After all, you severed all ties!  I bet your employer is still deducting Social Security taxes and Medicare taxes from your paychecks.  What a laugh you are!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Funny that you singled him out. Okay maybe his posts about the bible were funny but You OBVIOUSLY  have not read any of joe,synthyolics or Lysistratas posts because he has NOTHING on them on what a laugh THEY are.
> at least he is not a sad excuse for a human being like THEY are.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Whether he is a sad excuse for a human being remains debatable.  Part of me thinks he is, but another part of me thinks he may be schizophrenic, and it is because of that I really don't want to be responsible--directly or indirectly--for triggering him if he is.  Separating fact from fiction is difficult for individuals such as Dale.  He could also have paranoid delusional trends.  It is difficult to imagine he actually believes the content of many of his comments here.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Susie, I know what I know and I am very secure in my assertions. There isn't anyone here outside of Bulldog, that has ever done more than play the "Uh-Uh?!?!?" card....that's not debate, it's not discussion nor is it in anyway an attempt to try and understand how things really work. You all have been lied to and made into debt slaves with no allodial rights to property. You work up to four months a year just to pay "gubermint" taxes. That's a third of the paper scrip you earn that we call "Federal Reserve notes". Your inability to think for yourself coupled with your lack of intellectual curiosity is why this debt slavery system continues to thrive.
> 
> Hope this helps!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> "Your inability to think for yourself coupled with your lack of intellectual curiosity is why this debt slavery system continues to thrive."
> 
> Well, that's another way of putting things, taken straight from numerous tinfoiling scripts.  Here's an older, more general way of putting it:  "I am not nuts; rather, the rest of the world is."  But, as a human being, you are entitled to ownership of your "mind", no matter how damaged it is.  And trying to refute or debunk someone who may be beyond the point of no return is generally very futile and nonproductive.  Only the most learned professionals are the only ones who should even attempt to do so.
Click to expand...


This beloved "gubermint" that you have so much love, faith and trust in killed the one leader that was trying to free this country from the shadow government that has owned it "lock, stock and barrel for fifty years. You don't know your ass from a hole in the ground as it pertains to what  is true reality and I am sure that you lack the mental capacity to grasp it.

Hope this helps!


----------



## Dale Smith

JoeB131 said:


> Dale Smith said:
> 
> 
> 
> Susie, I know what I know and I am very secure in my assertions. There isn't anyone here outside of Bulldog, that has ever done more than play the "Uh-Uh?!?!?" card....that's not debate, it's not discussion nor is it in anyway an attempt to try and understand how things really work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yup.  all you really can do with people like you is say, "Uh-uh" when they claim lizard people in a secret basement are molesting kids at the behest of the Jesuit conspiracy that killed Lincoln, or whatever crazy shit comes out of your mouth.
> 
> 
> 
> Dale Smith said:
> 
> 
> 
> You all have been lied to and made into debt slaves with no allodial rights to property. You work up to four months a year just to pay "gubermint" taxes. That's a third of the paper scrip you earn that we call "Federal Reserve notes". Your inability to think for yourself coupled with your lack of intellectual curiosity is why this debt slavery system continues to thrive.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Um, no, we work up to four months a year to pay for infrastructure, security, retirement, public works and market enforcement...
> 
> It's called "Civilization".... it's kind of awesome. Unless you think it's all a plot by the Lizard Men to enslave you.
Click to expand...



LOL!!!!! Thank you for the best laugh I have had in a week! Infrastructure has been crumbling and even more so the last twenty years, the electrical grids haven't been upgraded in decades but don't feel that your sweat equity that moves this fiat currency with no intrinsic value has been a waste of time. Your labor has helped to fund a military beast that has been used as a hammer while weaker countries were the nails that can't print paper into oblivion and force other countries to take it  (or else) and exchange it for goods and services like USA.INC. It has also helped to fund deep underground military bases (last count there are 139) where a small segment of America's population will be allowed to ride out the culling of the herd if they have a "golden ticket" and unless they are in need of an ass-kissing, smarmy sycophant that is absolutely clueless? You have no shot at one. 

The two differences between USA.INC and Wal-Mart is that USA.INC can enforce their acts, statutes, codes, ordinances and public policy by threat of violence are imprisonment...work at Wal-Mart? They simply fire you if you don't abide by their rules. USA.INC has two set of books...one that is a budget and one is their assets from profiting from this venture from providing the 19 enumerated services per their corporate charter constitution and they name the price that they will extort from us. I opted out of being a de-facto employee of USA.INC, a de-facto "gubermint" that stays in a permanent state of bankruptcy and used my labor as collateral. It came with a high cost but it's worth it as I have no respect for it nor do I wish to be subservient to it. I wish that I knew what I know now back in my twenties instead of my fifties. I don't have the safety net (that I never used to begin with but paid for) but at least I have a certain amount of freedom that I didn't have before.
You? Well, you love your servitude and spread your cheeks for them every April 15th to pay your "Peter's Pence".

Yep, Joseph, I know more than you and I have tried to explain the nature of the cage as it pertains to this debt slavery system.....I can lead you to water but it seems rather crude to stick your head in the trough and force you to drink.


----------



## JoeB131

Dale Smith said:


> This beloved "gubermint" that you have so much love, faith and trust in killed the one leader that was trying to free this country from the shadow government that has owned it "lock, stock and barrel for fifty years. You don't know your ass from a hole in the ground as it pertains to what is true reality and I am sure that you lack the mental capacity to grasp it.



No, guy, nothing is going to help your level of crazy.  



Dale Smith said:


> Infrastructure has been crumbling and even more so the last twenty years, the electrical grids haven't been upgraded in decades but don't feel that your sweat equity that moves this fiat currency with no intrinsic value has been a waste of time.



Really? Every road I use is in pretty good shape.  Haven't had an electrical outage in years, save when the occasional storm knocks out a power line. (Then again, that happens in your neck of the woods, I'm sure you blame the Bilderbergers.) 



Dale Smith said:


> Yep, Joseph, I know more than you and I have tried to explain the nature of the cage as it pertains to this debt slavery system.....I can lead you to water but it seems rather crude to stick your head in the trough and force you to drink.



Sigh, buddy. 

You are a crazy person.  somehow, I doubt you hold down a job and you probably spend every day waiting for your disability check (judging by how often you post here when decent people are working)


----------



## Dale Smith

JoeB131 said:


> Dale Smith said:
> 
> 
> 
> This beloved "gubermint" that you have so much love, faith and trust in killed the one leader that was trying to free this country from the shadow government that has owned it "lock, stock and barrel for fifty years. You don't know your ass from a hole in the ground as it pertains to what is true reality and I am sure that you lack the mental capacity to grasp it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, guy, nothing is going to help your level of crazy.
> 
> 
> 
> Dale Smith said:
> 
> 
> 
> Infrastructure has been crumbling and even more so the last twenty years, the electrical grids haven't been upgraded in decades but don't feel that your sweat equity that moves this fiat currency with no intrinsic value has been a waste of time.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Really? Every road I use is in pretty good shape.  Haven't had an electrical outage in years, save when the occasional storm knocks out a power line. (Then again, that happens in your neck of the woods, I'm sure you blame the Bilderbergers.)
> 
> 
> 
> Dale Smith said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, Joseph, I know more than you and I have tried to explain the nature of the cage as it pertains to this debt slavery system.....I can lead you to water but it seems rather crude to stick your head in the trough and force you to drink.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sigh, buddy.
> 
> You are a crazy person.  somehow, I doubt you hold down a job and you probably spend every day waiting for your disability check (judging by how often you post here when decent people are working)
Click to expand...





 

LMAO! It's leftardss that seem to have no life other than this forum. I post after work for the most part....but I digress. Here is a pic of me owning your dumb ass......sucks to be you about right now.

(snicker)


----------



## JoeB131

Dale Smith said:


> LMAO! It's leftardss that seem to have no life other than this forum. I post after work for the most part....but I digress. Here is a pic of me owning your dumb ass......sucks to be you about right now.



Okay, so you took a picture of an inside of a machine on a Saturday... 

Hmmmm... 

Guy, you have no life at all.... if all you do is argue with people here because they don't accept your crazy.  

Heck, I used to work with a guy like you, he'd stare at the light fixtures and argue with people who weren't there.  They finally fired his ass.


----------



## MikeK

Penelope said:


> He was a nutcase, and they had plenty of time to escape and they started the fire, its all on them.  Wacko's with a pedophile leader and a storehouse of weapons.


Do you realize you're talking about twenty-one children, some as young as two?  

Do you realize the feds knew the children were in there?

Do you realize the feds knew Koresh was fanatical and had vowed to set fire to the compound if the feds tried to break in?


----------



## MikeK

Penelope said:


> SassyIrishLass said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dark day when innocent children die like that. Our government should be ashamed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Blame that on the zealot end of time Christians.
Click to expand...

Are you more concerned with where the blame lies than with the horror experienced by those helpless kids?   If so, you are a pretty sick individual.


----------



## MikeK

SassyIrishLass said:


> Children are children. The government had them surrounded and under siege, they were not going anywhere. Poor poor judgement on Reno's part


Not only Reno.  It was poor judgment on the part of every federal agent who understood the potential and went along with it.


----------



## MikeK

Desperado said:


> The FBI used tear gas and numerous times prior to this tear gas resulted in fires.
> The FBI knew this was a possibiliity when they used it


I know a retired FBI agent.  When I brought the Waco massacre up to him he very emphatically explained that the "regular" agents on-scene were opposed to the break-in (which I do recall) and that the agents responsible for going in belong to the FBI's "HRT" (Hostage Rescue Team), who he referred to as the "cowboys."  He said the FBI personnel were generally pissed off at what the HRT did because of the way it reflects on the Bureau.  

I believe him -- and I do recall that the FBI's negotiators were strongly opposed to breaking in and recommended they wait it out for as long as it took in the interest of the children.


----------



## MaryL

Desperado said:


> Did anyone watch the WACO mini series on the Paramount (Spike) network?
> To me it it made the  Branch Davidians and David Koresh look like the victims of an out of control
> federal law enforcement agents, specifically the ATF and the FBI.


No, but unfortunately I lived trough that mess. Reminds me of this  mess we are in NOW, Stop resisting and you wont get hurt Now it's Black lives matters, then?  Crazy whites with guns in a cult. Scary shi+t.


----------



## MikeK

bodecea said:


> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Desperado said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes the mini series was very interesting and caused me to look at Waco in a whole new light
> 
> 
> 
> Read Dick Reavis' book, _The Ashes of Waco,_ and that light will get even brighter.
> 
> There are many facts which were not revealed in the tv series that Reavis, who was Koresh's lawyer, has carefully researched and documented in his book.   One of the most important of those repressed facts is how the agents refused to allow the Press to have any contact whatsoever with the Davidians -- even via the  phone line over which Koresh had virtually begged to speak with reporters, a fact which blows a hole in the assertion that the Press was excluded for their own protection.
> 
> FBI established a supposedly "safe" area for the Media which was one full mile away from the compound and they physically restrained the Press from moving any closer -- even though the reporters were willing to assume full responsibility for their personal safety.  One reporter attempted to sneak past the constraint and was arrested.  Simply stated, through this authoritarian tactic the public was deprived of the truth via the same methods used by Pinochet in Chile, Stalin in Russia, Pahlavi in Iran, and various other tyrannical dictators.  This was a clear violation of the First Amendment but it was never mentioned in the tv series.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Koresh's lawyer, eh?
Click to expand...

Pardon my haste in composing that message and my failure to edit after posting.   Correction: Dick Reavis is the author of the book, _Ashes of Waco,_ in which he generously quotes Dick DeGuerin, who was Koresh's lawyer.


----------



## JoeB131

MikeK said:


> Do you realize you're talking about twenty-one children, some as young as two?
> 
> Do you realize the feds knew the children were in there?
> 
> Do you realize the feds knew Koresh was fanatical and had vowed to set fire to the compound if the feds tried to break in?



that sounds like a good reason to attempt a rescue once it became obvious no more of them were coming out.  

Unfortunately, the rescue failed.


----------



## JoeB131

MikeK said:


> I know a retired FBI agent. When I brought the Waco massacre up to him he very emphatically explained that the "regular" agents on-scene were opposed to the break-in (which I do recall) and that the agents responsible for going in belong to the FBI's "HRT" (Hostage Rescue Team), who he referred to as the "cowboys." He said the FBI personnel were generally pissed off at what the HRT did because of the way it reflects on the Bureau.
> 
> I believe him -- and I do recall that the FBI's negotiators were strongly opposed to breaking in and recommended they wait it out for as long as it took in the interest of the children.



So it looks like a case they took the worse option except for all the others. Wait them out, they might have committed mass suicide, anyway.


----------



## Desperado

MikeK said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> He was a nutcase, and they had plenty of time to escape and they started the fire, its all on them.  Wacko's with a pedophile leader and a storehouse of weapons.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you realize you're talking about twenty-one children, some as young as two?
> 
> Do you realize the feds knew the children were in there?
> 
> Do you realize the feds knew Koresh was fanatical and had vowed to set fire to the compound if the feds tried to break in?
Click to expand...


Which is exactly why the Feds should have arrested Koresh when he went into town.
But No, the ATF wanted to make a show of the take down  This whole fiasco is on the ATF and the FBI,. Bad judgement on their parts


----------



## MikeK

Desperado said:


> Which is exactly why the Feds should have arrested Koresh when he went into town.
> 
> But No, the ATF wanted to make a show of the take down  This whole fiasco is on the ATF and the FBI,. Bad judgement on their parts


So right.  Which is why the _handle_ assigned to that raid by its ATF organizers was _Operation "Showtime."
_
It was an opportunity for those authoritarian goons to dress up in their cowboy suits and act out their fondest occupational fantasy -- but the reality of who and what they really are was handily shoved down their throats.  Unfortunately the truth of that egregious abuse of federal power was obscured by the fraudulent intervention of a mendacious, degenerate President, his incompetent, freakish Attorney General, and an assembled coterie of skilled professional liars.


----------



## jon_berzerk

Desperado said:


> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> He was a nutcase, and they had plenty of time to escape and they started the fire, its all on them.  Wacko's with a pedophile leader and a storehouse of weapons.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you realize you're talking about twenty-one children, some as young as two?
> 
> Do you realize the feds knew the children were in there?
> 
> Do you realize the feds knew Koresh was fanatical and had vowed to set fire to the compound if the feds tried to break in?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which is exactly why the Feds should have arrested Koresh when he went into town.
> But No, the ATF wanted to make a show of the take down  This whole fiasco is on the ATF and the FBI,. Bad judgement on their parts
Click to expand...


well they wanted to show themselves saving a bunch of kids 

after the terrible and illegal actions they did at Ruby Ridge


----------



## JoeB131

Desperado said:


> Which is exactly why the Feds should have arrested Koresh when he went into town.
> But No, the ATF wanted to make a show of the take down This whole fiasco is on the ATF and the FBI,. Bad judgement on their parts



Oh, I don't know, maybe they wanted to send a message.  

Guess what happened when they took down BackPage last week.  

Craigs list and every other website that was on the edge of questionable behavior shut that shit down.


----------



## LA RAM FAN

OklaSusie said:


> LA RAM FAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OklaSusie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dale Smith said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OklaSusie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dale Smith said:
> 
> 
> 
> The ATF could have taken Koresh into custody at any time had they wanted. The federal "gubermint" was embarrassed by the Ruby Ridge incident and they wanted revenge and they wanted to demonize and marginalize anyone that was pro-2nd amendment and against a federal, corporate entity that is ran out of the District of Columbia that has it's own corporate charter constitution via the Act of 1871.
> 
> Personally? I spit and piss on the Feds by exposing them every chance I get and they don't like it that I rescinded my U.S citizenship and no longer under their acts, statutes, codes and ordinances. I have been a thorn in their side for years. They can eat shit and die for all I care. Live free or die.......I will never submit to the Feds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, brother.  There's that fiction about the Act of 1871 again.  I haven't read most of your fiction for awhile, but at least you are consistent with it.  It's sad to see such delusional garbage being posted by you.  And if you are living in this country you do, indeed, have to comply with federal, state and local laws.  If you rescinded your citizenship and are still living here, you are foolish to think you don't have to comply.  Of course, if you don't violate any laws, then you probably are safe for now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Do I know you? Where have we crossed paths before?  Your piss poor attempts at replying to prior my posts must have been rather lame or I would have recognized you.
> 
> BUT, to answer your question? Your beloved "gubermint" is indeed a corporate entity and all of their subsidiaries can be found on the Dun and Bradstreet website...did you know that even the Supreme Court of USA.INC is incorporated? Why does it matter? Go back and use the search feature...plug in my name and "USA.INC" and educate yourself. I am here to help! I obey constitutional law/ Common Law...not acts, statutes, codes and ordinances because I opted out of the UCC-1 and severed my ties to USA.INC.
> 
> I know more than you, SusieQ.......learn, grow, evolve.......the key to the shackles and the cage that makes you a prisoner are in your pocket. Knowledge is power......
> 
> Hosea Chapter 4, verse 6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wow, what a comeback.  More fiction.  And, quoting the Bible?  LOL?  Yeah, you severed your ties--LMAO!  Tell that to a judge if you ever are arrested.  He or she would laugh in your face and/or have you committed for 30 days.  You should do some research about people who have done exactly what you have done.  So I guess you won't be collecting Social Security in the future, right?  After all, you severed all ties!  I bet your employer is still deducting Social Security taxes and Medicare taxes from your paychecks.  What a laugh you are!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Funny that you singled him out. Okay maybe his posts about the bible were funny but You OBVIOUSLY  have not read any of joe,synthyolics or Lysistratas posts because he has NOTHING on them on what a laugh THEY are.
> at least he is not a sad excuse for a human being like THEY are.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Whether he is a sad excuse for a human being remains debatable.  Part of me thinks he is, but another part of me thinks he may be schizophrenic, and it is because of that I really don't want to be responsible--directly or indirectly--for triggering him if he is.  Separating fact from fiction is difficult for individuals such as Dale.  He could also have paranoid delusional trends.  It is difficult to imagine he actually believes the content of many of his comments here.
Click to expand...



typical of sorry ass trolls like you that all you can do is INSULT when you cant counter evidence and facts.you government worshippers are the ones that are a sad excuse to the human race for trolling here.


----------



## LA RAM FAN

MikeK said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Desperado said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes the mini series was very interesting and caused me to look at Waco in a whole new light
> 
> 
> 
> Read Dick Reavis' book, _The Ashes of Waco,_ and that light will get even brighter.
> 
> There are many facts which were not revealed in the tv series that Reavis, who was Koresh's lawyer, has carefully researched and documented in his book.   One of the most important of those repressed facts is how the agents refused to allow the Press to have any contact whatsoever with the Davidians -- even via the  phone line over which Koresh had virtually begged to speak with reporters, a fact which blows a hole in the assertion that the Press was excluded for their own protection.
> 
> FBI established a supposedly "safe" area for the Media which was one full mile away from the compound and they physically restrained the Press from moving any closer -- even though the reporters were willing to assume full responsibility for their personal safety.  One reporter attempted to sneak past the constraint and was arrested.  Simply stated, through this authoritarian tactic the public was deprived of the truth via the same methods used by Pinochet in Chile, Stalin in Russia, Pahlavi in Iran, and various other tyrannical dictators.  This was a clear violation of the First Amendment but it was never mentioned in the tv series.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Koresh's lawyer, eh?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Pardon my haste in composing that message and my failure to edit after posting.   Correction: Dick Reavis is the author of the book, _Ashes of Waco,_ in which he generously quotes Dick DeGuerin, who was Koresh's lawyer.
Click to expand...


a book none of these sorry ass excuse for human beings like Joe,oksusie, and Lysistrata will ever read since they are obviously shills on the governments payroll.


----------



## LA RAM FAN

Dale Smith said:


> OklaSusie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dale Smith said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OklaSusie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LA RAM FAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OklaSusie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, what a comeback.  More fiction.  And, quoting the Bible?  LOL?  Yeah, you severed your ties--LMAO!  Tell that to a judge if you ever are arrested.  He or she would laugh in your face and/or have you committed for 30 days.  You should do some research about people who have done exactly what you have done.  So I guess you won't be collecting Social Security in the future, right?  After all, you severed all ties!  I bet your employer is still deducting Social Security taxes and Medicare taxes from your paychecks.  What a laugh you are!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Funny that you singled him out. Okay maybe his posts about the bible were funny but You OBVIOUSLY  have not read any of joe,synthyolics or Lysistratas posts because he has NOTHING on them on what a laugh THEY are.
> at least he is not a sad excuse for a human being like THEY are.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Whether he is a sad excuse for a human being remains debatable.  Part of me thinks he is, but another part of me thinks he may be schizophrenic, and it is because of that I really don't want to be responsible--directly or indirectly--for triggering him if he is.  Separating fact from fiction is difficult for individuals such as Dale.  He could also have paranoid delusional trends.  It is difficult to imagine he actually believes the content of many of his comments here.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OklaSusie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LA RAM FAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OklaSusie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, what a comeback.  More fiction.  And, quoting the Bible?  LOL?  Yeah, you severed your ties--LMAO!  Tell that to a judge if you ever are arrested.  He or she would laugh in your face and/or have you committed for 30 days.  You should do some research about people who have done exactly what you have done.  So I guess you won't be collecting Social Security in the future, right?  After all, you severed all ties!  I bet your employer is still deducting Social Security taxes and Medicare taxes from your paychecks.  What a laugh you are!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Funny that you singled him out. Okay maybe his posts about the bible were funny but You OBVIOUSLY  have not read any of joe,synthyolics or Lysistratas posts because he has NOTHING on them on what a laugh THEY are.
> at least he is not a sad excuse for a human being like THEY are.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Whether he is a sad excuse for a human being remains debatable.  Part of me thinks he is, but another part of me thinks he may be schizophrenic, and it is because of that I really don't want to be responsible--directly or indirectly--for triggering him if he is.  Separating fact from fiction is difficult for individuals such as Dale.  He could also have paranoid delusional trends.  It is difficult to imagine he actually believes the content of many of his comments here.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Susie, I know what I know and I am very secure in my assertions. There isn't anyone here outside of Bulldog, that has ever done more than play the "Uh-Uh?!?!?" card....that's not debate, it's not discussion nor is it in anyway an attempt to try and understand how things really work. You all have been lied to and made into debt slaves with no allodial rights to property. You work up to four months a year just to pay "gubermint" taxes. That's a third of the paper scrip you earn that we call "Federal Reserve notes". Your inability to think for yourself coupled with your lack of intellectual curiosity is why this debt slavery system continues to thrive.
> 
> Hope this helps!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> "Your inability to think for yourself coupled with your lack of intellectual curiosity is why this debt slavery system continues to thrive."
> 
> Well, that's another way of putting things, taken straight from numerous tinfoiling scripts.  Here's an older, more general way of putting it:  "I am not nuts; rather, the rest of the world is."  But, as a human being, you are entitled to ownership of your "mind", no matter how damaged it is.  And trying to refute or debunk someone who may be beyond the point of no return is generally very futile and nonproductive.  Only the most learned professionals are the only ones who should even attempt to do so.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This beloved "gubermint" that you have so much love, faith and trust in killed the one leader that was trying to free this country from the shadow government that has owned it "lock, stock and barrel for fifty years. You don't know your ass from a hole in the ground as it pertains to what  is true reality and I am sure that you lack the mental capacity to grasp it.
> 
> Hope this helps!
Click to expand...



she smokes so much crack i dont think any of those pesky little facts registered with her.oh well, you tried.You led the horse to the water same as me and Mike have,not our fault they refise to drink the water.


----------



## LA RAM FAN

Lysistrata said:


> Dale Smith said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lysistrata said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LA RAM FAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lysistrata said:
> 
> 
> 
> The only fault of the ATF and the FBI was going ahead with the first raid even though people had advance knowledge of it, causing the deaths of at least three agents when people inside the compound opened fire on them. This wasn't the first time that cops screwed up. Remember the 1985 bombing of Philadelphia in an effort to get members of MOVE, when everyone in the MOVE fortified house died, and 61 homes were burnt to the ground:
> 
> 1985: When Philly police dropped a bomb on a residential neighborhood
> 
> Nobody remembers MOVE or thinks that they were murdered by heartless government officials. MOVE seems to have been a Koresh-type outfit. Nobody even remembers the innocent people who were burnt out of 61+ homes in the area as a result of a bomb set off by law enforcement.
> 
> So I don't know how why what happened in Waco should be remembered. Koresh was known for the sexual abuse and grooming of female children and other abuse of male children. Koresh opened fire on agents with an arrest warrant some 51 days before. The fires were set by the Branch Davidians themselves. It was the county sheriff's department that first contacted the ATF.
> 
> Growing Up Under Koresh: Cult Children Tell of Abuses
> 
> Life inside apocalyptic religious sect involved in 1993 Waco siege
> 
> Waco siege - Wikipedia
> 
> How the 1993 Waco standoff began with a bloody gunbattle that federal agents now regret  | Crime | Dallas News
> 
> I was home that day to clean the carpets and watched the entire incident unfold in real time. Even after the fire started, no one attempted to escape. I started screaming at the TV when I saw no one coming out. The fires were set in two different places.
> 
> All of this BS about Waco is just that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> okay you just lost your credibility using wikipedia as a sopurce,they are controlled by the government,they type in whatever they want you to hear.your credibility is shot to hell same as joes is as well with that lie the davidians started the fires,all you have to do is watch one of the videos and it CLEARLY shows a tank with a flame thrower mounted on it shooint flames onto the compound. so yes waco,the version of events given by the government which is the links you have,is bullshit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I saw the whole thing in real time. That was gas being shot. The vehicle did not have a flamethrower on it. The fires started in two separate places, one well away from the vehicle. As I have said before, no one came out of the building. Why not. wouldn't you leave a two-story building if it were burning?
> 
> Why did the Branch Davidians open fire on the federal agents, killing and wounding several, 51 days before the fire?
> 
> Why did they send some children away and not all of them? Some of the saved children even said in advance that Koresh was going to burn the place down.
> 
> Why do the right-winger like to protect and honor child rapists? Most of us find the prospect of a child being raped disgusting, not "funny."
> 
> How would you have gotten out the women and children being held in this compound by a group of insane and well-armed men, capable of rape and murder?
> 
> Law enforcement lets these standoffs last far too long. We saw that with the Bundy thing in Oregon, too. The Bundy group should have had its asses kicked out and jailed weeks before. This stupid nonsense by the tiny-penis fake men has got to stop. Now. Their stupid theatrics are not more important than the safety of society.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Bull-fucking shit....don't try that shit on me. I was in Dallas, Texas and watched the whole thing live by one of the Dallas affiliates. They fried the people...those that were left any way. They had to in order to cover up their crime. Koresh opened the door when the raid started hitting him and killing one of the people in the house.  Stop being such a sheeple.
> 
> BTW, you OBVIOUSLY don't have a fucking clue as to what the Oregon stand-off was about or how Lavoy Finicum was shot in the back by a gutless Fed...but most little commies don't so you have plenty of company in the party of "stupid".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have to call BS on you. Answer me why there was a gunfight 51 days earlier. Answer me as to how it was that no one attempted to flee when the fire started. Answer me why right-wingers defend child rapists and groomers.
> 
> As for Oregon, those little bitches weren't supposed to be there doing what they did in the first place, so their motive is entirely irrelevant. Finicum said days earlier that he wanted to die, and the little skank was killed attempting to draw a weapon. No great loss. He should have kept his hands in the air and awaited a pat-down search. Cops get off for killing unarmed black men all the time, saying that they perceived that they were in danger. Finicum was armed., and he certainly looked like he was going for it.
> 
> And I'm a "little commie?" You have no way of knowing what my views on economics are. How childish of you.
Click to expand...

Oh my the irony 

funny how you call HIM childish just because you cant counter his evidence and facts.

you are hardly in any position to call ANYONE childish except joe b and the other waco apologists just like you that since you are too arrogant to watch the films or read the documented books we have referred you all to.that little truth hurts how he took you to school the fact he struck a nerve and got you so frustrated you could not counter his pesky facts.


----------



## LA RAM FAN

Lysistrata said:


> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lysistrata said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't forget that Koresh repeatedly raped little girls and forced little boys to march around like soldiers, and then lit the fires that killed so many. The public support for child rapists and sex-groomers in this country has been astounding.
> 
> 
> 
> Whether the Davidians started the fires as a deliberately suicidal act, or if the reckless actions of the FBI/HRT accidentally caused ignition, remains a matter of divided opinions.  But three things are undeniably certain.  The FBI/HRT knew Koresh had threatened mass suicide if an attempt was made to breach the compound's walls.  They had reliable cause (advice of professional behaviorists) to believe Koresh was mentally unstable.  And they knew there were 21 helpless children in that building.
> 
> They knew those things.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So what was law enforcement supposed to do, considering that Koresh and his minions had opened fire on the LEO's weeks ago, resulting in several deaths and injuries?  How long does society have to let these groups go on,,baby raping and weapons stock-piling? Are they supposed to be mollycoddled for what they were doing? Yeah. There were "helpless children" inside that building with a madman, as well as adults who may have wished to leave. The government of Australia was even pointing out that there were Australian nationals endangered there. Law enforcement is, at the very least, charged with rescuing children from these circumstances. Who else but them could do so? I doubt that anyone else would dash in and carry a 12-year-old rape victim to safety.
> 
> Incidentally, the fires were started in two separate locations. This much was evident from watching.
> 
> Why place the blame on law enforcement and not the Branch Davidians?
Click to expand...



because stupid fuck troll,there was NO evidence that the Branch Davidians started the fire but TONS of evidence law enforcement did as we have taken your ass to the cleaners here too many times to remember on this thread.


----------



## LA RAM FAN

dblack said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dblack said:
> 
> 
> 
> It appears jack boots come in both red, and blue, varieties.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or we just can't work up a lot of sympathy for Crazy White People who belong to whacky cults.
> 
> I wonder why you Libertarian nuts don't show this much outrage when a black child is shot by a cop.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I know you don't read all my posts, Joe, but I do.
> 
> Do you like red, blue - or just the traditional black best?
Click to expand...


Joe and the other government shills Lysistrata and ok susie NEVER read out posts same lke they never read the documented books on waco or watch the video footage that day.


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## LA RAM FAN

MikeK said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> [...]
> 
> Frankly, I want a government to protect us from people like David Koresh.  I'm not sure why you don't.
> 
> [...]
> 
> 
> 
> What threat did David Koresh or any of the Branch Davidians pose to you, or me, or anyone else?  Who did any of those people harm?  The answer is no one.
> 
> While it is entirely possible that Vernon Howell ("David Koresh") was guilty of certain forms of socially unacceptable behavior he was not the evil demon that various government entities and individuals such as yourself portray him as being.  If he did in fact engage in certain pedophilic activities none of it took place outside the boundaries of the Davidian cult wherein it was as acceptable as it is in many other exotic religious gatherings, both past and present.  And while you have casually accused him of rape, not even the professional liars who produced the BATF's warrant application went that far.
> 
> I find it interesting that Sheriff Jack Harwell, the chief of that county's law enforcement resources, had a more favorable impression and opinion of Koresh and the Branch Davidians than you (and some others) do -- the main difference being Harwell knew the Davidians personally while you did not.
> 
> Sheriff Jack Harwell | Waco - The Inside Story | FRONTLINE | PBS
Click to expand...



shills Lysistrate,Joe and susie as we both know wont read this ling of yours since pesky facts shoot down their warped opinions.


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## LA RAM FAN

Dale Smith said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dale Smith said:
> 
> 
> 
> This beloved "gubermint" that you have so much love, faith and trust in killed the one leader that was trying to free this country from the shadow government that has owned it "lock, stock and barrel for fifty years. You don't know your ass from a hole in the ground as it pertains to what is true reality and I am sure that you lack the mental capacity to grasp it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, guy, nothing is going to help your level of crazy.
> 
> 
> 
> Dale Smith said:
> 
> 
> 
> Infrastructure has been crumbling and even more so the last twenty years, the electrical grids haven't been upgraded in decades but don't feel that your sweat equity that moves this fiat currency with no intrinsic value has been a waste of time.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Really? Every road I use is in pretty good shape.  Haven't had an electrical outage in years, save when the occasional storm knocks out a power line. (Then again, that happens in your neck of the woods, I'm sure you blame the Bilderbergers.)
> 
> 
> 
> Dale Smith said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, Joseph, I know more than you and I have tried to explain the nature of the cage as it pertains to this debt slavery system.....I can lead you to water but it seems rather crude to stick your head in the trough and force you to drink.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sigh, buddy.
> 
> You are a crazy person.  somehow, I doubt you hold down a job and you probably spend every day waiting for your disability check (judging by how often you post here when decent people are working)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> View attachment 187935
> 
> LMAO! It's leftardss that seem to have no life other than this forum. I post after work for the most part....but I digress. Here is a pic of me owning your dumb ass......sucks to be you about right now.
> 
> (snicker)
Click to expand...


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## LA RAM FAN

MikeK said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> 
> He was a nutcase, and they had plenty of time to escape and they started the fire, its all on them.  Wacko's with a pedophile leader and a storehouse of weapons.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you realize you're talking about twenty-one children, some as young as two?
> 
> Do you realize the feds knew the children were in there?
> 
> Do you realize the feds knew Koresh was fanatical and had vowed to set fire to the compound if the feds tried to break in?
Click to expand...


she has indeed been spending wayyyyy too much time listening to the corporate controlled medias version of events of that day. which is VERY strange and puzzeling for her because unlike all these other stupid fucks that have defended the government version of event to no end,she almost always NEVER believes the corporate controlled media so it is odd that this tirme she did not look at the real facts and only went by what THEY said isnt it?


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## Desperado

JoeB131 said:


> Oh, I don't know, maybe they wanted to send a message.


And what message was that? The ATF and Fbi kill women and children so do as we say or die!


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## LA RAM FAN

Desperado said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, I don't know, maybe they wanted to send a message.
> 
> 
> 
> And what message was th\at? The ATF and Fbi kill women and children so do as we say or die!
Click to expand...


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## Luddly Neddite

Desperado said:


> Did anyone watch the WACO mini series on the Paramount (Spike) network?
> To me it it made the  Branch Davidians and David Koresh look like the victims of an out of control
> federal law enforcement agents, specifically the ATF and the FBI.




Actually, it was very well balanced, showed several sides and did not blame "
an out of control federal law enforcement agents, specifically the ATF and the FBI." You want to see that so that's what you see.

For the most part, I would say the blame was with Koresh's suicidal actions. Witnesses said he killed himself, just as he had said he would. He said he wanted to be a martyr and he is - to RWNJs who want to hate Clinton/Reno/ATF and to fundies who are still worshiping Koresh. 

I just hope their current leaders aren't still raping women and children.


----------



## LA RAM FAN

Luddly Neddite said:


> Desperado said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did anyone watch the WACO mini series on the Paramount (Spike) network?
> To me it it made the  Branch Davidians and David Koresh look like the victims of an out of control
> federal law enforcement agents, specifically the ATF and the FBI.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, it was very well balanced, showed several sides and did not blame "
> an out of control federal law enforcement agents, specifically the ATF and the FBI." You want to see that so that's what you see.
> 
> For the most part, I would say the blame was with Koresh's suicidal actions. Witnesses said he killed himself, just as he had said he would. He said he wanted to be a martyr and he is - to RWNJs who want to hate Clinton/Reno/ATF and to fundies who are still worshiping Koresh.
> 
> I just hope their current leaders aren't still raping women and children.
Click to expand...


there you go LYING as always.YOU are the one who wants to see that so thats what YOU  see. current leaders raping? you mean like all the rapes Mr Clinton has done to women over the years,that raping? yes that kinda raping by our current leaders is something that better never happen in the white house again as it did under clinton,you are correct.

No jhe just doesnt troll that you have a LONG proven history here of same as Joe does and does not ignore the evidence that you wont look at that Clinton,Reno, the ATF,and FBI started the fires with no intent of trying to rescue the hostages.


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## Lysistrata

I see that the same folks are around to protect the "honor" of those who start gunfights, rape children (no _male_ children were raped so it's okay; female children exist to be sexual meat), and set fires to burn themselves and their followers to death.


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## LA RAM FAN

Lysistrata said:


> I see that the same folks are around to protect the "honor" of those who start gunfights, rape children (no _male_ children were raped so it's okay; female children exist to be sexual meat), and set fires to burn themselves and their followers to death.



that would be YOU who keep protecting the government who start fires on innocent people shill.

you have fallen on your face flat and failed miserable to disprove this post below here.

And what message was that? The ATF and Fbi kill women and children so do as we say or die![/QUOTE]


----------



## LA RAM FAN

yeah shill lissy  it IS funny you cant counter those facts and have to LIE in defeat.


----------



## JoeB131

LA RAM FAN said:


> that would be YOU who keep protecting the government who start fires on innocent people shill.
> 
> you have fallen on your face flat and failed miserable to disprove this post below here.
> 
> And what message was that? The ATF and Fbi kill women and children so do as we say or die!



Um, sorry, the Davidians started the fire because Koresh would rather die than go to prison and have them do what they do to Chomos there.  

It's sad the deluded sheep in his cult let him rape and then murder their children... but kids brought up in a cult like that were going to be all sorts of fucked up... so not any great loss.


----------



## gipper

JoeB131 said:


> LA RAM FAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> that would be YOU who keep protecting the government who start fires on innocent people shill.
> 
> you have fallen on your face flat and failed miserable to disprove this post below here.
> 
> And what message was that? The ATF and Fbi kill women and children so do as we say or die!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Um, sorry, the Davidians started the fire because Koresh would rather die than go to prison and have them do what they do to Chomos there.
> 
> It's sad the deluded sheep in his cult let him rape and then murder their children... but kids brought up in a cult like that were going to be all sorts of fucked up... so not any great loss.
Click to expand...

The State is NEVER wrong...so think statists like Joe.

The government attacked and murdered these people.  In a sane nation, this action should have brought down the government and resulted in the imprisonment of all involved.  

I find it appalling that many Americans think the government blameless in this terrible atrocity.  How is Waco different from what Hitler, Stalin, or Mao did?  It is just not of the same magnitude, but very much alike.


----------



## JoeB131

gipper said:


> The State is NEVER wrong...so think statists like Joe.
> 
> The government attacked and murdered these people. In a sane nation, this action should have brought down the government and resulted in the imprisonment of all involved.



In a sane nation, nobody wants Chomo Koresh living next store with his perversions and guns.  

The only mistake the government made is trying to reason with these people. 



gipper said:


> I find it appalling that many Americans think the government blameless in this terrible atrocity. How is Waco different from what Hitler, Stalin, or Mao did? It is just not of the same magnitude, but very much alike.



Only if you are a crazy person. 

So let's look at the sequence of events. 

Koresh molests kids and sells guns illegally.
The ATF serves a valid warrant that Koresh knew was coming. 
Koresh and his cultists shoot at them. 
The FBI tries to talk them into surrendering for 43 days. 
When it's clear they won't, they move in to arrest them. 
They light themselves on fire and all die.  

Again, the only thing the government did wrong was trying to reason with these people.  People who let a creep fuck their kids can't be reasoned with.


----------



## gipper

JoeB131 said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> The State is NEVER wrong...so think statists like Joe.
> 
> The government attacked and murdered these people. In a sane nation, this action should have brought down the government and resulted in the imprisonment of all involved.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In a sane nation, nobody wants Chomo Koresh living next store with his perversions and guns.
> 
> The only mistake the government made is trying to reason with these people.
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> I find it appalling that many Americans think the government blameless in this terrible atrocity. How is Waco different from what Hitler, Stalin, or Mao did? It is just not of the same magnitude, but very much alike.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Only if you are a crazy person.
> 
> So let's look at the sequence of events.
> 
> Koresh molests kids and sells guns illegally.
> The ATF serves a valid warrant that Koresh knew was coming.
> Koresh and his cultists shoot at them.
> The FBI tries to talk them into surrendering for 43 days.
> When it's clear they won't, they move in to arrest them.
> They light themselves on fire and all die.
> 
> Again, the only thing the government did wrong was trying to reason with these people.  People who let a creep fuck their kids can't be reasoned with.
Click to expand...

Murder all those people because you consider ONE man a criminal.

The thinking of a murderous statist.  

You are a Fascist....but don't even know it.
_"*Everything within the state*, nothing outside the *state*, nothing against the *state*"._


----------



## JoeB131

gipper said:


> Murder all those people because you consider ONE man a criminal.



Um, no, all the adults were accessories if they were letting him molest their kids and helping him sell guns and resist arrest.  



gipper said:


> The thinking of a murderous statist.
> 
> You are a Fascist....but don't even know it.
> _"*Everything within the state*, nothing outside the *state*, nothing against the *state*"._



Guy, it's always fun to watch you Libertarians denounce the state, but still enjoy all the benefits of civilization.  

Unless you are living like the fucking Unabomber, cut off from technology and civilization, you are every bit as much a statist as I am.  

I just don't feel the need to cry over Chomos who kill themselves.


----------



## gipper

JoeB131 said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Murder all those people because you consider ONE man a criminal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Um, no, all the adults were accessories if they were letting him molest their kids and helping him sell guns and resist arrest.
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> The thinking of a murderous statist.
> 
> You are a Fascist....but don't even know it.
> _"*Everything within the state*, nothing outside the *state*, nothing against the *state*"._
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Guy, it's always fun to watch you Libertarians denounce the state, but still enjoy all the benefits of civilization.
> 
> Unless you are living like the fucking Unabomber, cut off from technology and civilization, you are every bit as much a statist as I am.
> 
> I just don't feel the need to cry over Chomos who kill themselves.
Click to expand...

Kill the kids to save the kids.

Are you a psychopath?


----------



## JoeB131

gipper said:


> Kill the kids to save the kids.
> 
> Are you a psychopath?



The government didn't kill those kids... Koresh did. 

That was the finding of every investigation that looked into this.


----------



## gipper

JoeB131 said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kill the kids to save the kids.
> 
> Are you a psychopath?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The government didn't kill those kids... Koresh did.
> 
> That was the finding of every investigation that looked into this.
Click to expand...

Damn Joe...really?  

Had the government minded it's own business, those children would be alive today.  So, logically, the government you so love and adore, MURDERED those children.  

Was it worth murdering all those children and adults, because ONE guy might have broken gun laws?  I suspect you being a statist/fascist would say YES!


----------



## JoeB131

gipper said:


> Damn Joe...really?
> 
> Had the government minded it's own business, those children would be alive today. So, logically, the government you so love and adore, MURDERED those children.



Um, preventing the illegal sales of guns and protecting children from sexual abuse is the government's business, dummy.  



gipper said:


> Was it worth murdering all those children and adults, because ONE guy might have broken gun laws? I suspect you being a statist/fascist would say YES!



Meh, bunch of fucked up cultists... those kids would have grown up to be all kinds of fucked up, so no great loss.


----------



## gipper

JoeB131 said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Damn Joe...really?
> 
> Had the government minded it's own business, those children would be alive today. So, logically, the government you so love and adore, MURDERED those children.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Um, preventing the illegal sales of guns and protecting children from sexual abuse is the government's business, dummy.
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Was it worth murdering all those children and adults, because ONE guy might have broken gun laws? I suspect you being a statist/fascist would say YES!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Meh, bunch of fucked up cultists... those kids would have grown up to be all kinds of fucked up, so no great loss.
Click to expand...

Good God you are slow.

You think saving children by killing them, is a good approach.


----------



## JoeB131

gipper said:


> Good God you are slow.
> 
> You think saving children by killing them, is a good approach.



I'm saying those children were unsavable... but the government made a good try. 

They were doomed the minute "God" told Koresh to start fucking them.


----------

