# War on Christmas



## Zoom-boing (Nov 25, 2008)

Try as they may the secular progressives will not win this war.  

A Colbert Christmas: Toby Keith Sings | | ColbertNation.com

(Give the video a few minutes to load).


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## Shogun (Nov 25, 2008)

yea yea yea...  you are not the only belief system with a holiday during this time of year, dogma junkie.  We've already won; go ask Retail store greeters all about it.


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## WillowTree (Nov 25, 2008)

Shogun said:


> yea yea yea...  you are not the only belief system with a holiday during this time of year, dogma junkie.  We've already won; go ask Retail store greeters all about it.






newp! we don't shop for Holiday's if they don't say Christmas they can stuff it!


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## Steerpike (Nov 25, 2008)

This is all a matter of people getting worked up over style and outward presentation rather than substance.

Religious views are intensely personal, and anyone who is in any way impacted by whether or not a retailer says Christmas, or Holidays, or anything at all has completely overlooked the fundamentally important aspects of the holiday and has instead focused on shallow cultural lip service to the holiday.

No one whose religious faith is worth a nickel will give a damn about this.


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## WillowTree (Nov 25, 2008)

Steerpike said:


> This is all a matter of people getting worked up over style and outward presentation rather than substance.
> 
> Religious views are intensely personal, and anyone who is in any way impacted by whether or not a retailer says Christmas, or Holidays, or anything at all has completely overlooked the fundamentally important aspects of the holiday and has instead focused on shallow cultural lip service to the holiday.
> 
> No one whose religious faith is worth a nickel will give a damn about this.





then let's do away with Rhamadan watchyasay?


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## Steerpike (Nov 25, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> then let's do away with Rhamadan watchyasay?



Who said anything about doing away with something?  Are you sure you read my post correctly?  The point is, your religious faith should not be the least bit impacted by whether WalMart chooses to give it lip service or not.


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## Shogun (Nov 25, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> newp! we don't shop for Holiday's if they don't say Christmas they can stuff it!



fair enough.. go take your business somewhere other than the entire range of major retailers who are not about to stop wishing non-christians happy holidays just because you think you own the fucking season.


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## jillian (Nov 25, 2008)

Steerpike said:


> Who said anything about doing away with something?  Are you sure you read my post correctly?  The point is, your religious faith should not be the least bit impacted by whether WalMart chooses to give it lip service or not.



She couldn't read your post past the beam in her own eye.


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## Zoom-boing (Nov 25, 2008)

Shogun said:


> yea yea yea...  you are not the only belief system with a holiday during this time of year, dogma junkie.  We've already won; go ask Retail store greeters all about it.



Never said I was.  I just don't want Christmas and Christ ousted by kooks who think God doesn't exist or should not be mentioned.  Christmas isn't a holiday, it's a Holyday.  You haven't won anything.


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## WillowTree (Nov 25, 2008)

Shogun said:


> fair enough.. go take your business somewhere other than the entire range of major retailers who are not about to stop wishing non-christians happy holidays just because you think you own the fucking season.






never said I owned it.. Christians celebrate Christmas as the birth of Christ. You retailers wanna say holiday. go for it.. I don't have to shop for anything. that's not what Christmas is about after all.. shopping or not shopping bothers me not at all.


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## WillowTree (Nov 25, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Never said I was.  I just don't want Christmas and Christ ousted by kooks who think God doesn't exist or should not be mentioned.  Christmas isn't a holiday, it's a Holyday.  You haven't won anything.



but you should let them think they have,, makes em all happy and stuff.


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## Ravi (Nov 25, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Never said I was.  I just don't want Christmas and Christ ousted by kooks who think God doesn't exist or should not be mentioned.  Christmas isn't a holiday, it's a Holyday.  You haven't won anything.


psssssssst...you can't say holiday because the definition of holiday is holy day ya friggiin moron.



Etymology:Middle English, from Old English _h&#257;ligdæg,_ from _h&#257;lig_ holy + _dæg_ day


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## jillian (Nov 25, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Try as they may the secular progressives will not win this war.



The only ones who think there's a "war" are the nutters who think if everyone isn't celebrating their holiday, that they're somehow being put upon.

Most of us couldn't care less.

So go enjoy your holiday without annoying everyone else.


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## Steerpike (Nov 25, 2008)

This is one of the silliest discussions every year. No one is "winning" or "losing" anything.  Businesses are trying to appeal to the broadest customer base, and they figure Holidays includes everyone. Normally, trying to appeal to more customers is a good idea in business. In this case, though, you get some people who try to backlash against it.  The whole thing is stupid.  If a business can cater to more people rather than fewer, they ought to do it. Pro-business conservatives ought to understand the concept.


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## SpidermanTuba (Nov 25, 2008)

Steerpike said:


> This is all a matter of people getting worked up over style and outward presentation rather than substance.
> 
> Religious views are intensely personal, and anyone who is in any way impacted by whether or not a retailer says Christmas, or Holidays, or anything at all has completely overlooked the fundamentally important aspects of the holiday and has instead focused on shallow cultural lip service to the holiday.
> 
> No one whose religious faith is worth a nickel will give a damn about this.




Translation: this idiots that declare there is a "war on Christmas" every year are complete fucking morons.


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## WillowTree (Nov 25, 2008)

Steerpike said:


> This is one of the silliest discussions every year. No one is "winning" or "losing" anything.  Businesses are trying to appeal to the broadest customer base, and they figure Holidays includes everyone. Normally, trying to appeal to more customers is a good idea in business. In this case, though, you get some people who try to backlash against it.  The whole thing is stupid.  If a business can cater to more people rather than fewer, they ought to do it. Pro-business conservatives ought to understand the concept.




business can do what they wanna do.. I don't shop, won't shop, don't like shopping. so youse guys have a holiday and we will have Christmas. Christmas at my house is all about family, food, sharing and celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ.. I don't give a flip what Wal mart wants. Now is everybody all hunky dory happy? good. next!


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## Steerpike (Nov 25, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> business can do what they wanna do.. I don't shop, won't shop, don't like shopping. so youse guys have a holiday and we will have Christmas. Christmas at my house is all about family, food, sharing and celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ.. I don't give a flip what Wal mart wants. Now is everybody all hunky dory happy? good. next!



So...that's the way it ought to be.  Why were you chiming in on the "omg it's a war on Christmas" side, then?


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## dilloduck (Nov 25, 2008)

SpidermanTuba said:


> Translation: this idiots that declare there is a "war on Christmas" every year are complete fucking morons.



Partially true--it is actually part of the larger war on religion. Secularists make too much money off of Christmas to ban it.


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## WillowTree (Nov 25, 2008)

SpidermanTuba said:


> Translation: this idiots that declare there is a "war on Christmas" every year are complete fucking morons.





that's the holiday spirit!  I like Christmas better! 
Atheists unite!


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## SpidermanTuba (Nov 25, 2008)

dilloduck said:


> Partially true--it is actually part of the larger war on religion. Secularists make too much money off of Christmas to ban it.



There is no war on religion. There is only war between religions.


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## WillowTree (Nov 25, 2008)

atheists unite! one and all, all for one!


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## dilloduck (Nov 25, 2008)

SpidermanTuba said:


> There is no war on religion. There is only war between religions.



 I didn't wanna piss off secularists by inferring they have a dogma and worship things.


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## Ravi (Nov 25, 2008)

It's people like this that helped boot the wingnuts out of office.

Long live the war on Christmas idiots.


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## YWN666 (Nov 25, 2008)

This "war on christmas" bullshit was manufactured by a bunch of selfish people (Bill O'Really being the biggest twit) that want to make themselves look like victims because they don't play well with others. The christian persecution act doesn't fly.  A department store wishing Happy Holidays to customers does not take christmas away from anyone so stop insisting that _all _businesses have to wish _all_ customers a Merry Christmas.


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## SpidermanTuba (Nov 25, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> A department store wishing Happy Holidays to customers does not take christmas away from anyone so stop insisting that _all _businesses have to wish _all_ customers a Merry Christmas.



I say let them do it, I wouldn't want retarded people shopping in my store anyway.


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## Shogun (Nov 25, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Never said I was.  I just don't want Christmas and Christ ousted by kooks who think God doesn't exist or should not be mentioned.  Christmas isn't a holiday, it's a Holyday.  You haven't won anything.



It's not your discretion to decide who says what, dogma junkie.  I don't recall anyone giving you jurisdiction to lord over who says what in their holiday greeting.  And, if xmas were merely a holyday instead of a HOLIday then we wound't be observing it on a federal level.  I suggest you take your complaining to the first amendment.


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## Shogun (Nov 25, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> never said I owned it.. Christians celebrate Christmas as the birth of Christ. You retailers wanna say holiday. go for it.. I don't have to shop for anything. that's *not what Christmas is about after all.. *shopping or not shopping bothers me not at all.





ya.. you tell yourself that.  Hell, i'd invite anyone crying about retailers saying Holiday over xmas to put their faiths where their big collective mouths are and show us all just how much xmas is NOT about luring kids in with a tree full of wrapped gifts.  Wanna see xmas lose it's sparkle?  go tell your kids that santa is not real and jesus never brought gifts to kids on his (supposed) b day.






(and, just for arguments sake you should have googled wal mart's decision to go back to saying merry xmas back in 06.  just sayin)


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## Shogun (Nov 25, 2008)

dilloduck said:


> I didn't wanna piss off secularists by inferring they have a dogma and worship things.




If you equate "belief" with "worship" then it's no wonder why dogma junies fail in the science class.  Gravity and Heliocentrism don't require a vain jewish ghost to be evident.  Thank the periodic table.


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## WillowTree (Nov 25, 2008)

Shogun said:


> ya.. you tell yourself that.  Hell, i'd invite anyone crying about retailers saying Holiday over xmas to put their faiths where their big collective mouths are and show us all just how much xmas is NOT about luring kids in with a tree full of wrapped gifts.  Wanna see xmas lose it's sparkle?  go tell your kids that santa is not real and jesus never brought gifts to kids on his (supposed) b day.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





I don't cry about it.. I just continue on my Merry Christmas way and avoid shopping during my Christmas season. If the retailers don't want Christmas i respect that.. my kids, get it too.. they never thought Jesus brought them gifts.. did your mama tell you that?? Hey everybody is happy you have your holiday and I'll have my Christmas. I won't insult you about it either.


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## WillowTree (Nov 25, 2008)

SpidermanTuba said:


> I say let them do it, I wouldn't want retarded people shopping in my store anyway.





That's the Holiday spirit,, such a level of tolerance you lefties have,, it's just totally awsome innit?


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## YWN666 (Nov 25, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> I don't cry about it.. I just continue on my Merry Christmas way and avoid shopping during my Christmas season. If the retailers don't want Christmas i respect that.. my kids, get it too.. they never thought Jesus brought them gifts.. did your mama tell you that?? Hey everybody is happy you have your holiday and I'll have my Christmas. I won't insult you about it either.




The retailers are NOT saying that they don't want Christmas.  Many of them have clearly stated that if their employees know a customer celebrates Chrsitmas, it is fine to wish them Merry Christmas.  If they don't know anything about the customer, the safest greeting is Happy Holidays.  I don't understand why anyone has a problem with a retailer trying not to alienate potential customers.  Some people want all of the retailers to wish _everyone_ a Merry Christmas.  That is as silly as a guy named Joe expecting that all employees of all stores greet every customer by saying "Hi, Joe!"  It's pure selfishness.


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## YWN666 (Nov 25, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> newp! we don't shop for Holiday's if they don't say Christmas they can stuff it!



Why are you so offended by someone using a greeting other than "Merry Christmas"?


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## WillowTree (Nov 25, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> Why are you so offended by someone using a greeting other than "Merry Christmas"?





okay,, let me get this straight,, we say Happy Holiday so we don't offend anyone? that's yer arguement right? and then you ask me why I might be offended cause you won't say merry christmas??? just think about that for a little while.. 


but, I'm not offended.. I respect their right to have a Holiday,, and they must respect my right not to Holiday shop.. If I can't go Christmas shopping I will forgo shopping.. Holiday shopping just dosen't do it for me. Holiday trees don't do it for me either... so I don't buy Holiday trees...llike I said.. I am so happy to have the burden of commercialism removed from my christmas,, It's so much nicer to just have good food, good family, good friends, good wine and to remember Chistmas is a celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ. Now enjoy you holiday.


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## rayboyusmc (Nov 25, 2008)

On O Really's site, they show their "*Holiday *shopping deadlines" gifts.

Why isn't it Christmas shopping deadlines.

Bill is a employee sexual harassing hippo crypt.


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## WillowTree (Nov 25, 2008)

rayboyusmc said:


> On O Really's site, they show their "*Holiday *shopping deadlines" gifts.
> 
> Why isn't it Christmas shopping deadlines.
> 
> Bill is a employee sexual harassing hippo crypt.





That's the Holiday Spirit! yessirreeee bibbitybob..


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## Zoom-boing (Nov 25, 2008)

Happy holidays is sooo PC.  Wouldn't want to offend anyone, right?  Yet the vast majority of people in this country are Christians who celebrate the birth of Christ on December 25 and are offended.  But hey they're just religious nuts, right?  The de-emphasizing of Christmas as a religious celebration is why many people are offended.  Slowly the left is trying to erode the meaning of Christmas.  

No mention of the birth of Christ at public schools, yet my kids have come home many years telling me about Hanukkah and Kwannza.  Hows that ok?  They would not sing one song that was related to Christmas in anyway last year at school . . . but they sang the Driedel song.  Hows that ok?  Changing it to a 'holiday tree' or 'holiday parade' lessens the importance Christmas.  Like I said, it's a slow erosing taking place.

Glad to see there are people fighting back.  If the town is going to ok a menorah and santa claus decorations then they have to ok a Nativity set.  Too bad the seculars don't like it.  When someone wishes me 'happy holidays' I answer back, looking them right in the eye, with a very warm 'Merry Christmas'.  

Christmas is, was and always will be holyday before it is anything else Ravi.  Sorry to burst your bubble.


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## Lycurgus (Nov 25, 2008)

"Translation: this idiots that declare there is a "war on Christmas" every year are complete fucking morons."



I agree. Just as moronic as those who piss and moan that a nativity scene somehow violates them. 

Further, they should keep in mind when they take their little snot nosed kid to see Santa to get a cute picture to gaze at, it is based on St. Nicholas and the Christian Religion. So at best, they could stop being hypocrites just to get a worthless photo and to shut their kid up! 

How about that?  LOL

Or better yet, how about if we all just enjoy the season how it best serves us and stop bitching about others. Let the nativity scenes be enjoyed by all, the same with all of the other type of religious displays and the non religious ones. I'm sure even the mindless atheist can find some pleasure in nicely done artistic nativity display without pissing down their leg. The same with me if I see a holiday setting without any religious value in it. It amazes me how petty this nation has become with all of these cheesy personal value complaints. No wonder the economy sucks, the borders get flooded over daily and crime keeps rising. 

If I opened my mouth and bitched about everything i saw which was different than my personal beliefs, I wouldn't have time to wipe my own backside. What a mess!


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## KittenKoder (Nov 25, 2008)

Funny thing, many christians deny this but it's a fact, xmas is a PAGAN holiday. The modern version has bits from a LOT of different religions. So I love it, it's the time when christians admit they are no different than any other religion.


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## Ravi (Nov 25, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Happy holidays is sooo PC.  Wouldn't want to offend anyone, right?  Yet the vast majority of people in this country are Christians who celebrate the birth of Christ on December 25 and are offended.  But hey they're just religious nuts, right?  The de-emphasizing of Christmas as a religious celebration is why many people are offended.  Slowly the left is trying to erode the meaning of Christmas.
> 
> No mention of the birth of Christ at public schools, yet my kids have come home many years telling me about Hanukkah and Kwannza.  Hows that ok?  They would not sing one song that was related to Christmas in anyway last year at school . . . but they sang the Driedel song.  Hows that ok?  Changing it to a 'holiday tree' or 'holiday parade' lessens the importance Christmas.  Like I said, it's a slow erosing taking place.
> 
> ...


I celebrate Christmas. I even wish people a Merry Christmas. It just cracks me up that year after year people such as yourself crawl out of the woodwork and whine about having your feelings slighted.


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## KittenKoder (Nov 25, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Happy holidays is sooo PC.  Wouldn't want to offend anyone, right?  Yet the vast majority of people in this country are Christians who celebrate the birth of Christ on December 25 and are offended.  But hey they're just religious nuts, right?  The de-emphasizing of Christmas as a religious celebration is why many people are offended.  Slowly the left is trying to erode the meaning of Christmas.
> 
> No mention of the birth of Christ at public schools, yet my kids have come home many years telling me about Hanukkah and Kwannza.  Hows that ok?  They would not sing one song that was related to Christmas in anyway last year at school . . . but they sang the Driedel song.  Hows that ok?  Changing it to a 'holiday tree' or 'holiday parade' lessens the importance Christmas.  Like I said, it's a slow erosing taking place.
> 
> ...



*rae* Christianity is not the majority now, check the polls.


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## del (Nov 25, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> *rae* Christianity is not the majority now, check the polls.



i did. you're wrong. not just a little wrong, either. hugely wrong.
massively wrong. flat out wrong. epically wrong.
here you go.... merry christmas

US religious identity is rapidly changing - The Boston Globe


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## KittenKoder (Nov 25, 2008)

del said:


> i did. you're wrong. not just a little wrong, either. hugely wrong.
> massively wrong. flat out wrong. epically wrong.
> here you go.... merry christmas
> 
> US religious identity is rapidly changing - The Boston Globe



*smirks* Oh yeah, a 'trusted' source. Sure.


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## del (Nov 25, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> *smirks* Oh yeah, a 'trusted' source. Sure.



yeah, the boston globe is a well known christian mouthpiece.

are you this stupid in real life or is it just something you save for here?


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## Againsheila (Nov 25, 2008)

Steerpike said:


> This is all a matter of people getting worked up over style and outward presentation rather than substance.
> 
> Religious views are intensely personal, and anyone who is in any way impacted by whether or not a retailer says Christmas, or Holidays, or anything at all has completely overlooked the fundamentally important aspects of the holiday and has instead focused on shallow cultural lip service to the holiday.
> 
> No one whose religious faith is worth a nickel will give a damn about this.



Actually, I think it's hypocritical to sell Christmas decorations and Christmas presents and then tell your employees they can't say "Merry Christmas".  It's a national holiday and it's name is "Christmas".  It's insulting to think that we can't call it what it is because it may offend some people.  

I'm offended on the basis that this is America and to me it's a freedom of speech issue.

If you say happy Hanukkah, or Ramadan, or whatever, I will not be offended.  Why would anyone be offended for being wished a happy Christmas?  As I pointed out before, Christmas is a federal holiday.


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## KittenKoder (Nov 25, 2008)

Againsheila said:


> Actually, I think it's hypocritical to sell Christmas decorations and Christmas presents and then tell your employees they can't say "Merry Christmas".  It's a national holiday and it's name is "Christmas".  It's insulting to think that we can't call it what it is because it may offend some people.
> 
> I'm offended on the basis that this is America and to me it's a freedom of speech issue.
> 
> If you say happy Hanukkah, or Ramadan, or whatever, I will not be offended.  Why would anyone be offended for being wished a happy Christmas?  As I pointed out before, Christmas is a federal holiday.



I concur, though I myself haven't celebrated it since I grew up and never will, it's not such a big deal over what it's called. It's still a ancient collection of pagan rituals combined with a few modern religious rituals from organized religions, the name is just a modern label and nothing more.


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## Againsheila (Nov 25, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> I concur, though I myself haven't celebrated it since I grew up and never will, it's not such a big deal over what it's called. It's still a ancient collection of pagan rituals combined with a few modern religious rituals from organized religions, the name is just a modern label and nothing more.



I asked my mother once why non-Christians celebrate Christmas.  She said "Don't you think it's better that there be one day a year when everyone, regardless  of their background, can come together and celebrate?"

I feel sorry for people who don't celebrate Christmas.  It's like Thanksgiving, only with presents and a lot more decorations.  For us, it's always been about family and friends and I think it should continue that way.

Even if the presents go away, I still love the decorations and the family get togethers.

And there is nothing quite like the look on a child's face when he gets up Christmas morning and finds presents under the tree.  

My youngest, as you know is low functioning and when he was  little, grandma would look at the wishbook with him trying to get him to tell us what he wanted.  One day he pointed at a tin of popcorn and said "corn".  So that Christmas, we bought him a big tin of popcorn.  When he got up Christmas morning, he saw that tin, ran to it, opened it and stood there eating his popcorn.  He wasn't interested in any of his other presents.  It was funny.  His older brother kept trying to get him to open his other presents, but no dice.  He was just interested in that popcorn.


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## KittenKoder (Nov 25, 2008)

Againsheila said:


> I asked my mother once why non-Christians celebrate Christmas.  She said "Don't you think it's better that there be one day a year when everyone, regardless  of their background, can come together and celebrate?"
> 
> I feel sorry for people who don't celebrate Christmas.  It's like Thanksgiving, only with presents and a lot more decorations.  For us, it's always been about family and friends and I think it should continue that way.
> 
> ...



Meh, as I said, if you want to go ahead, no skin off my nose. I love Thanksgiving, the ONLY thing that pisses me off about christmas is it keeps starting earlier and earlier, canabalising all the other holidays.

For info, I live alone, single for life because I hate family, and a geek. Christmas is just a work day I can get paid more for.


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## Shogun (Nov 25, 2008)

The thing is, Shiela, as a non-christian I don't mind the supposed premise behind the christmas season of getting together with family and  applying "the christmas spirit" and all that jazz.. But, and this is the distinction that I think many dogma junkies will never fathom, despite all the trite rockwellian imagery that is used to pain this holiday as some grand event seeping with good will the FACT remains that the numero uno issue dogma junkies let twist their panties is what door greeters say to shoppers on the way into a commercial business while walking over each other to buy the latest elmo doll.  You wanna know what would speak more about the "real" meaning of xmas beyond talking heads on the radio?  Letting your ACTIONS speak louder than your words.


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## KittenKoder (Nov 25, 2008)

I don't shop during this holiday season, can't stand the crowds. Instead I spend time in all the places I actually enjoy myself, while everyone is killing each other over the elmo dolls I am relaxing in the movies. *smiles* Oh I love when the morons go shopping, so nice to see a movie without crying babies, noisome children, and gabby yuppies.


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## xsited1 (Nov 25, 2008)

I celebrate Festivus.


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## xsited1 (Nov 25, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> I don't shop during this holiday season, can't stand the crowds. Instead I spend time in all the places I actually enjoy myself, while everyone is killing each other over the elmo dolls I am relaxing in the movies. *smiles* Oh I love when the morons go shopping, so nice to see a movie without crying babies, noisome children, and gabby yuppies.



Al Goldstein?  Is that you?


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## Shogun (Nov 25, 2008)

for the rest of us!


I now challenge you to a wrestling match for this years airing of grievances.


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## Shadow (Nov 25, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> newp! we don't shop for Holiday's if they don't say Christmas they can stuff it!




What will the progressives ever do if they finally figure out holidays is just another way to say holy days? Still promotes religion and God IMO.

I don't really have a problem with "Happy Holidays" as opposed to "Merry Christmas".


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## YWN666 (Nov 25, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> okay,, let me get this straight,, we say Happy Holiday so we don't offend anyone? that's yer arguement right? and then you ask me why I might be offended cause you won't say merry christmas??? just think about that for a little while..



I have thought about it and think your position makes no sense.  I never said I won't say Merry Christmas.  I said retailers are trying to be considerate of people of other religions.  Some people think retailers should only be considerate of christians.

By the way, you didn't answer my question.  What is so offensive about happy Holidays?




> but, I'm not offended.. I respect their right to have a Holiday,, and they must respect my right not to Holiday shop.. If I can't go Christmas shopping I will forgo shopping.. Holiday shopping just dosen't do it for me. Holiday trees don't do it for me either... so I don't buy Holiday trees...llike I said.. I am so happy to have the burden of commercialism removed from my christmas,, It's so much nicer to just have good food, good family, good friends, good wine and to remember Chistmas is a celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ. Now enjoy you holiday.



So you'll only go shopping if everyone caters to YOUR needs?  I guess the non-christians in the store can just go screw as long as you're happy, right?


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## Zoom-boing (Nov 25, 2008)

Shogun said:


> The thing is, Shiela, as a non-christian I don't mind the supposed premise behind the christmas season of getting together with family and  applying "the christmas spirit" and all that jazz.. But, and this is the distinction that I think many dogma junkies will never fathom, despite all the trite rockwellian imagery that is used to pain this holiday as some grand event seeping with good will the FACT remains that *the numero uno issue dogma junkies let twist their panties is what door greeters say to shoppers on the way into a commercial business while walking over each other to buy the latest elmo doll. * You wanna know what would speak more about the "real" meaning of xmas beyond talking heads on the radio?  Letting your ACTIONS speak louder than your words.



Nope.  What bothers us is the slow erosion of God from . . . . everything.  You don't notice it because it isn't important to you.  

BTW, what stores do you shop at that have Christmas greeters?  The only store where I see greeters is Kohls . . .and they just want me to open a credit card account.


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## Zoom-boing (Nov 25, 2008)

xsited1 said:


> I celebrate Festivus.



LOL Gotta love Festivus.


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## Zoom-boing (Nov 25, 2008)

Shadow said:


> What will the progressives ever do if they finally figure out* holidays is just another way to say holy days*? Still promotes religion and God IMO.
> 
> I don't really have a problem with "Happy Holidays" as opposed to "Merry Christmas".




Hows that?


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## YWN666 (Nov 25, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Nope.  What bothers us is the slow erosion of God from . . . . everything.  You don't notice it because it isn't important to you.



Oh, please!  As long as you want to have god with you, he will be with you and no one can stop that. The only limitation with your god is that he can't be endorsed by government.  That's all.  Aside from that small limitation, you can have him anywhere you go and pray to him wherever and whenever you want so stop the whining. What you people really want is for everyone to be exposed to your religion and only your religion.


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## Gunny (Nov 25, 2008)

Just like Christmas, seems we do this every year.

I get REALLY tired of hearing the denialists bleet "What war on Christmas?" when obviously there IS one.

At the same time, the Chiken Littles make it sound like we're being invaded by China.

Anyone ever consider actually discussing the topic without being asshats about it?


----------



## Zoom-boing (Nov 25, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> I have thought about it and think your position makes no sense.  I never said I won't say Merry Christmas.  I said *retailers are trying to be considerate of people of other religions.  Some people think retailers should only be considerate of christians.*



Why not be considerate of both? 




> By the way, you didn't answer my question.  What is so offensive about happy Holidays?



In itself, nothing.  But when it's all that's said it slowly erodes Christ from Christmas.  That's what people find offensive.


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## YWN666 (Nov 25, 2008)

Gunny said:


> I get REALLY tired of hearing the denialists bleet "What war on Christmas?" when obviously there IS one.



I see no evidence of it.  I see Christmas trees in the stores and on people's front lawns.  I saw Santa Claus in the mall and he was not being led away in cuffs.  I actually hear people talking about Christmas without being arrested.  Imagine that.


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## Vel (Nov 25, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> I see no evidence of it.  I see Christmas trees in the stores and on people's front lawns.  I saw Santa Claus in the mall and he was not being led away in cuffs.  I actually hear people talking about Christmas without being arrested.  Imagine that.




It's all about the extreme. I don't think anyone would have been concerned about hearing Happy Holidays versus Merry Christmas had the PC crowd not started all the complaints several years ago about being offended by "Merry Christmas". And when it reached the point that the word Christmas was so politically taboo that we started seeing "Holiday Trees" ( Puleeze.. what holiday other than Christmas has people haul a tree into their house and cover it with decorations?) because retailers were so afraid of offending, people realized that they'd better protect Christmas as Christmas or lose it.


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## Zoom-boing (Nov 25, 2008)

Gunny said:


> Just like Christmas, seems we do this every year.
> 
> I get REALLY tired of hearing the denialists bleet "What war on Christmas?" when obviously there IS one.
> 
> ...




Of course there's a war.  But to those who don't care about God they don't see it because it doesn't matter to them.  

My guess is that every year someone new will come along and stir the pot on this topic.  Chicken littles?  Some are; most aren't.  I think most are just fed up with all the PC crap.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Nov 25, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> I see no evidence of it.  I see *Christmas trees *in the stores and on people's front lawns.  I saw *Santa Claus *in the mall and he was not being led away in cuffs.  I actually hear people talking about Christmas without being arrested.  Imagine that.




They like to call them holiday trees, dontcha know?  And Santa?  Uh no, we're talking Christ.  When's the last time you saw any semblance of Christ in any Christmas display in a store?


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## YWN666 (Nov 25, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> They like to call them holiday trees, dontcha know?  And Santa?  Uh no, we're talking Christ.  When's the last time you saw any semblance of Christ in any Christmas display in a store?



And that ruins Christmas for you?  Does a store have to have jesus displayed in order for you and your family to celebrate christmas at home?  Does the store patronized by people of many different religions have to cater exclusively to christians??  Why?  Oh, that's right - this is a christian nation where non-christians don't matter!


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## YWN666 (Nov 25, 2008)

Vel6377 said:


> It's all about the extreme. I don't think anyone would have been concerned about hearing Happy Holidays versus Merry Christmas had the PC crowd not started all the complaints several years ago about being offended by "Merry Christmas". And when it reached the point that the word Christmas was so politically taboo that we started seeing "Holiday Trees" ( Puleeze.. what holiday other than Christmas has people haul a tree into their house and cover it with decorations?) because retailers were so afraid of offending, people realized that they'd better protect Christmas as Christmas or lose it.




It's not about being PC, it's about economics.  If a store alienates a segment of their customer base by using only a christian holiday greeting, they lose money.  It's quite understandable that a store wants to catre to ALL people, not just christians.  I just get a little fed up with hearing some christians whine about being persecuted when they have had the upper hand for so many years and everyone else had to accomodate them.

I'd like to know how anyone can "lose Christmas".  I haven't seen the Christmas police take anyone kicking and screaming from their home because they celebrate Christmas.


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## YWN666 (Nov 25, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Of course there's a war.  But to those who don't care about God they don't see it because it doesn't matter to them.



But is should matter to them because it matters to YOU?  Well, pardon us!


----------



## Vel (Nov 25, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> And that ruins Christmas for you?  Does a store have to have jesus displayed in order for you and your family to celebrate christmas at home?  *Does the store patronized by people of many different religions have to cater exclusively to christians??  *Why?  Oh, that's right - this is a christian nation where non-christians don't matter?




Does the store patronized by people of many different religions have to pointedly exclude Christians? When was the last time you saw a "holiday candleabra"?


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## Zoomie1980 (Nov 25, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> And that ruins Christmas for you?  Does a store have to have jesus displayed in order for you and your family to celebrate christmas at home?  Does the store patronized by people of many different religions have to cater exclusively to Christians??  Why?  Oh, that's right - this is a christian nation where non-christians don't matter!



What different religions?  Of those who profess a faith, the US is 85% Christian, and most of the other 15% is Jewish....  If stores want to cater to the masses they should put Manger scenes everywhere because the overwhelming percentage of the population is Christian.  Throw a few Hannakuh symbols around and you got almost 100% of the buying public covered.

The only ones they likely alienate is a tiny minority of odd-ball, non-mainstream, non-Judeo-Christians who aren't buying anything at this time of year anyway because they don't celebrate the holiday!


----------



## Zoomie1980 (Nov 25, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> It's not about being PC, it's about economics.  If a store alienates a segment of their customer base by using only a christian holiday greeting, they lose money.  It's quite understandable that a store wants to catre to ALL people, not just christians.  I just get a little fed up with hearing some christians whine about being persecuted when they have had the upper hand for so many years and everyone else had to accomodate them.
> 
> I'd like to know how anyone can "lose Christmas".  I haven't seen the Christmas police take anyone kicking and screaming from their home because they celebrate Christmas.



What segment could they possibly alienate?  Christmas is a CHRISTIAN holiday!!!  Non Christians don't celebrate it anyway so who's to alienate?  It had EVERYTHING to do with the PC IDIOCY that has affected the nation for almost 20 years, and has finally been largely beaten down, thankfully.

We, as a nation, have finally realized you DO NOT have a "right" to not be offended.

I personally go out of my way to ensure I offend at least one person, somewhere, everyday, for no other reason than to prove that I have a right to do just that.


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## Ravi (Nov 26, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Hows that?


Do you actually _read_ other people's posts? Does anyone? I'm beginning to think not.


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## YWN666 (Nov 26, 2008)

Vel6377 said:


> Does the store patronized by people of many different religions have to pointedly exclude Christians? When was the last time you saw a "holiday candleabra"?




They don't exclude christians.  Christians are treated like everyone else.  That seems to be the problem here.  Some christians want special treatment at everyone else's expense.


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## YWN666 (Nov 26, 2008)

Zoomie1980 said:


> What different religions?  Of those who profess a faith, the US is 85% Christian, and most of the other 15% is Jewish....  If stores want to cater to the masses they should put Manger scenes everywhere because the overwhelming percentage of the population is Christian.  Throw a few Hannakuh symbols around and you got almost 100% of the buying public covered.
> 
> The only ones they likely alienate is a tiny minority of odd-ball, non-mainstream, non-Judeo-Christians who aren't buying anything at this time of year anyway because they don't celebrate the holiday!



Look at it from the viewpoint of the retailers. Why risk alienating 15% of their customers when they can greet everyone in an equal manner and cover all religious beliefs?  If the retailers don't know the religion of the individual customers, what is the harm in saying Happy Holidays?  Why does that offend some people?


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## YWN666 (Nov 26, 2008)

Zoomie1980 said:


> What segment could they possibly alienate?  Christmas is a CHRISTIAN holiday!!!  Non Christians don't celebrate it anyway so who's to alienate?  It had EVERYTHING to do with the PC IDIOCY that has affected the nation for almost 20 years, and has finally been largely beaten down, thankfully.



There ARE other religious holidays in December, ya know.  You're demonstrating the tunnelvision that is at the root of this ridiculous controversy



> We, as a nation, have finally realized you DO NOT have a "right" to not be offended.
> 
> I personally go out of my way to ensure I offend at least one person, somewhere, everyday, for no other reason than to prove that I have a right to do just that.



Is that the christian way of doing things?  If you can't have it all going your way, you'll ruin it for everyone else?  jesus must be so proud!


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## editec (Nov 26, 2008)

Oh _boo hoo hoo!_

Nobody's going to steal Christmas.

Get over yourselves.


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## YWN666 (Nov 26, 2008)

What 'War on Christmas'?


By Ruth Marcus

Saturday, December 10, 2005; Page A21

I've been hearing about this "War on Christmas," so I headed to the Heritage Foundation the other day for a briefing from one of the defending army's generals: Fox News anchor John Gibson, author of "The War on Christmas: How the Liberal Plot to Ban the Sacred Christian Holiday Is Worse Than You Thought." Gibson -- and Bill O'Reilly, his comrade in the Fox-hole -- see this as a two-front war: Assaulting Christmas from the government end, they say, are pusillanimous school principals, politically corrected city managers and their ilk, bullied by the ACLU types into extirpating any trace of Christmas from the public square. Battering the holiday from the private sector are infidel retailers such as Target and Wal-Mart, which balk at using the C-word in their advertising in favor of such secularist slogans as "Happy Holidays."

The assault, Gibson told the Heritage crowd, has reached a "shocking level this year."

After the lecture, I wandered over to Union Station to check out a retail battlefield. Inside and out, the station was festooned with giant You Know What wreaths. A huge You Know What tree, with presents wrapped in red and green underneath, stood in the main hall, near a placard announcing "Norwegian Christmas at Union Station." A high-tech player piano was playing "Go Tell It on the Mountain," proclaiming the birth of You Know Who; the next selection was You Know Who Else Is Coming to Town. The most generic element was a small sign reading "Happy Holidays," but even then the words were bracketed by reindeer -- and let's just say, they weren't eating latkes. It was beginning to look a lot like You Know What.

If the anti-Christmas forces are winning, then the war in Iraq is nothing short of total victory.

It may seem strange -- even foolhardy -- for a nice Jewish girl to be writing about Christmas. So let me say: I'm a huge fan, always have been, in a kind of nose-pressed-against-the-glass sort of way. When I was growing up in the New Jersey suburbs, my family used to pile into the car every Christmas and drive around looking at the lights, with my mother and I engaging in earnest discussion of what color scheme we'd choose. If I were Christian, I suspect, I'd be the sort of over-the-top type who buys ornaments year-round and has a drawer full of Christmas sweaters, the kind featuring pompoms as tree ornaments.

This is the time of year, though, when those of us who aren't Christian, or who don't celebrate Christmas, most feel our minority status. I've experienced this especially acutely since my children started to look longingly at shopping mall Santas (Santa's a nice guy, honey, but he's not for us) and ask why there are so few menorahs or dreidels among the reindeer and Christmas trees. (How to break this gently? Their team has a lot more players.)

I'm not one who would argue that we ought to Grinch our way out of this discomfort by aggressively de-Christmafying. And to the extent that the war-on-Christmas crowd is simply reacting to knee-jerk political correctness, I'm with them. It's idiotic to call the Capitol conifer a Holiday Tree -- as it has been for the past several years, until it was re-, um, christened this year. If, as Gibson reports, the Plano, Tex., schools really have an edict banning red-and-green decorations (was it either color or just the combination?) -- well, you don't have to be Christian to find this more than a little silly.

But there is an ugly, bullying aspect to this dispute, in which the pro-Christmas forces are not only asking, reasonably, that their religion be treated with equal status and respect but in which they are attacking legitimate efforts at inclusivity. It's this sense of aggrieved victimhood that confuses me: What, exactly, is so threatening about calling the school holiday a winter break rather than Christmas vacation?

The latest alleged perfidy is the failure of the White House Christmas card to mention Christmas, instead expressing "best wishes for a holiday season of hope and happiness" and featuring a verse from Psalms. William A. Donohue, president of the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights, calls this evidence that the administration has "capitulated to the worst elements in our culture." I call it a recognition, especially welcome at a time of sectarian violence, that not all the 1.4 million folks on the Christmas list are Christian.

This has reached its most imposition-of-Sharia-law-like level of intolerance in the campaign to cow stores into saying Christmas. O'Reilly, escalating his "Christmas Under Siege" campaign, has posted a list of naughty and nice retailers. The American Family Association goes further, calling for a boycott of stores -- it's targeted Target -- that fail to use the word Christmas in their advertising or in-store promotions. "Target doesn't want to offend a small minority who oppose Christmas," says AFA's chairman, Donald Wildmon. "But they don't mind offending Christians who celebrate the birth of Christ."

Really? I've just gone on the Target Web site and plugged Christmas into my product search. "We found 39,197 match(es) for 'Christmas' at Target," it reported. How offensive is that?


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## YWN666 (Nov 26, 2008)

USATODAY.com - A fictional 'war on Christmas'

A fictional 'war on Christmas' 
By T. Jeremy Gunn
Last December, a group called Public Advocate for the United States (which claims to defend America's traditional family values) sent some Christmas carolers over to sing in front of the ACLU offices in Washington.
Carrying signs reading "Merry Christmas" and "Please Don't Sue Us!"  they also seem to have carried with them some rather strange imaginings about an assault on Christmas. (Related: Law doesn't mandate a secular Christmas | The year's dust-ups)

I don't know what the carolers thought might happen. 

To tell the truth, the ACLU is not often serenaded by Christmas carolers. So it was with some excitement that the staff went outside and joined in the singing. They brought with them cookies and warm drinks to share. One staff member, who is an ordained Baptist minister, did a little witnessing about his faith to some astonished proponents of family values.

Fox News did broadcast the event (as a part of its "war against Christmas" campaign). Although the visiting singers were shown, the cameras failed to include any footage showing that everyone had participated in the caroling. Rather than reporting the facts, the anchor preferred the propaganda: "We believe the ACLU heard the message loud and clear, but they don't care." 

The battle cries 

This year, several groups are once again introducing the Christmas season with some heated and misleading military rhetoric. Some declare, "There is a war against Christmas!" One group launched a "Friend or Foe Christmas Campaign." One particularly bizarre charge is that there is "a thorough and virulent anti-Christmas campaign." Without a shred of evidence, they pretend that there is an effort afoot to remove "God" from the Declaration of Independence. Two groups even announced that they have assembled hundreds of lawyers to protect Christmas against this imaginary threat.

Make no mistake about it. These warrior-lawyers are not asking us to love our neighbors (and certainly not our enemies), nor to turn the other cheek, nor to be peacemakers, nor to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's. 

Nor is this a joyful effort to encourage the Christmas spirit in the millions of places where it can be promoted without any conflict: in people's hearts, in their homes, with families, in churches, or with friend and neighbors. 

No, this is a campaign of military-infused rhetoric demanding that everyone accept one politically correct version of "Christmas." 

For example, this year in Boston  the same city where Puritans once prohibited the pagan-inspired "Christmas tree"  the new Puritans now demand that the city call its evergreen spruce a "Christmas tree," and they threatened a lawsuit if the city didn't comply.

Another group charges that there is a "campaign of fear, intimidation, and disinformation" against seasonal symbols in Raleigh, N.C.  and they offer to provide a defense for the city against any threatened lawsuit. Yet they give no evidence that anyone is threatening a lawsuit. Before accusing others of engaging in "disinformation," perhaps these Christmas warriors should first take a look in the mirror. 

Why this desire to manufacture controversy  about Christmas?

Guidelines already exist 

Rather than engaging in propaganda about a "war on Christmas," all who want to promote the spirit of Christmas should remember a couple of simple guidelines.

First, Christmas displays  including nativity scenes  are perfectly acceptable at homes and churches. This religious expression is a valued and protected part of the First Amendment rights guaranteed to all citizens. 

Second, governments should not be in the business of endorsing religious displays. Religion does best when government stays out of the business of deciding which holidays and religions to promote. Religion belongs where it prospers best: with individuals, families and religious communities. 

And finally, as a seasonal greeting to all Christians: Merry Christmas from the ACLU! And for believers in all other traditions: Thank you for enriching our world!

T. Jeremy Gunn is director of the ACLU Program on Freedom of Religion and Belief.


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## WillowTree (Nov 26, 2008)

lol you guys kill me,, you keep denying there's a war on Christmas then proceed to have a war on Christmas every year..


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## editec (Nov 26, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> lol you guys kill me,, you keep denying there's a war on Christmas then proceed to have a war on Christmas every year..


 
Oh Yeah.

The body count is just something awful, isn't it?

_yawn_


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## Shogun (Nov 26, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Nope.  What bothers us is the slow erosion of God from . . . . everything.  You don't notice it because it isn't important to you.
> 
> BTW, what stores do you shop at that have Christmas greeters?  The only store where I see greeters is Kohls . . .and they just want me to open a credit card account.



but you don't have jurisdiction over EVERYTHING.  Welcome to fucking reality where, in fact, you have to share the world with others who don't share your faith.  The world is not something for you dogma junkies to burn a jesus brand into just because you feel like peeing on territory.  sorry to burst your bubble.


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## Shogun (Nov 26, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Why not be considerate of both?
> In itself, nothing.  But when it's all that's said it slowly erodes Christ from Christmas.  That's what people find offensive.





how does a retail greeter that says happy holidays extract the jesus from YOUR personal christmas experience?  Should we all dress up like the fucking nativity scene before stepping out into public between dec. 12 and Jan1?  Should we all be forced to recite the customary "peace be with you" instead of any other greeting just because you seem to need actors to validate your faith?  Let's trade that turkey for some wine and crckers and feast on some blood of christ just because YOU don't think the world is saturated with christianity.  We can force all other non-english speaking americans to speak in tongues instead of their primary language and make any newborn that pops out of a vagina during the entire season sleep in mangers.  in barns.  You know, anything less would be an obvious incitement of a war on christmas....


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## Shogun (Nov 26, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> They like to call them holiday trees, dontcha know?  And Santa?  Uh no, we're talking Christ.  When's the last time you saw any semblance of Christ in any Christmas display in a store?



when was the last time store displays validated your, apparently, fragile faith?  Maybe oscar meyer should have a crucified christ hanging above their hot dog display this easter.  I mean, just when you think buying hot dogs are getting too secular...


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## Shogun (Nov 26, 2008)

Vel6377 said:


> Does the store patronized by people of many different religions have to pointedly exclude Christians? When was the last time you saw a "holiday candleabra"?



who the fuck is excluding christians by saying HAPPY HOLIDAYS?  You ARE one of those groups having a fucking HOLIDAY, right?

amazing.


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## Shogun (Nov 26, 2008)

Zoomie1980 said:


> What segment could they possibly alienate?  Christmas is a CHRISTIAN holiday!!!  Non Christians don't celebrate it anyway so who's to alienate?  It had EVERYTHING to do with the PC IDIOCY that has affected the nation for almost 20 years, and has finally been largely beaten down, thankfully.
> *
> We, as a nation, have finally realized you DO NOT have a "right" to not be offended.
> *
> I personally go out of my way to ensure I offend at least one person, somewhere, everyday, for no other reason than to prove that I have a right to do just that.



thats a pretty fucking IRONIC statement to make in this thread, dont you think?


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## WillowTree (Nov 26, 2008)

I think Shogun's still having the war on christmas, he's outflanked the christians   sound the trumpets!


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## YWN666 (Nov 26, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> lol you guys kill me,, you keep denying there's a war on Christmas then proceed to have a war on Christmas every year..



We're not having it, YOU are.  We're not the ones whining about not being catered to.  We'd like things to be fair for all.  You don't.


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## YWN666 (Nov 26, 2008)

Shogun said:


> but you don't have jurisdiction over EVERYTHING.  Welcome to fucking reality where, in fact, you have to share the world with others who don't share your faith.  The world is not something for you dogma junkies to burn a jesus brand into just because you feel like peeing on territory.  sorry to burst your bubble.



I can't believe this but I am going to again agree with Shogun.  Some christians got so used to having things done their way and only their way for so long that now when we are standing up to their selfishness, they are having temper tantrums and whining like babies.


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## WillowTree (Nov 26, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> We're not having it, YOU are.  We're not the ones whining about not being catered to.  We'd like things to be fair for all.  You don't.





What's not fair??? You have yer holiday, I'll have my Christmas.. What's not fair????  and why is Christmas not fair??


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## WillowTree (Nov 26, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> I can't believe this but I am going to again agree with Shogun.  Some christians got so used to having things done their way and only their way for so long that now when we are standing up to their selfishness, they are having temper tantrums and whining like babies.



well, then let's go change up Ramadan,, they souldn't be allowed to have it their way just cause their Muslims I bet you're too chickenshit to go there though aren't you??


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## YWN666 (Nov 26, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> well, then let's go change up Ramadan,, they souldn't be allowed to have it their way just cause their Muslims I bet you're too chickenshit to go there though aren't you??



What a stupid comment.  Your reasoning skills are lacking.  Do you hear Muslims complaining that they're not being greeted with a Ramadan greeting when they shop in a store?  No.  The whining is coming from _your_ side.  Like petulant children, you don't play well with others and can't accept that you have to share the spotlight. Someone call the Waaahhhhmbulance.  You poor persecuted babies!


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## YWN666 (Nov 26, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> What's not fair??? You have yer holiday, I'll have my Christmas.. What's not fair????  and why is Christmas not fair??



I didn't say Christmas is not fair, you dumbass. 
What is not fair is you whiney christians wanting retailers to wish Merry Christmas to *everyone* just because it suits *you*.


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## Orange_Juice (Nov 26, 2008)

Happy Holidays everyone!


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## WillowTree (Nov 26, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> What a stupid comment.  Your reasoning skills are lacking.  Do you hear Muslims complaining that they're not being greeted with a Ramadan greeting when they shop in a store?  No.  The whining is coming from _your_ side.  Like petulant children, you don't play well with others and can't accept that you have to share the spotlight. Someone call the Waaahhhhmbulance.  You poor persecuted babies!





you don't hear me complaining either do you??? No,, cause I don't go shopping.. so you lose! I have told you three or four times to have yer happy holiday and I'll have my Merry Christmas and still you whine.. could you use a little cheese??


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## WillowTree (Nov 26, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> I didn't say Christmas is not fair, you dumbass.
> What is not fair is you whiney christians wanting retailers to wish Merry Christmas to *everyone* just because it suits *you*.





sure you did you DUmbass! you said you wanted to be *fair* and I didn't,, and since I favor saying it's Christmas it a perfectly logical consture!  so don't say Christmas DUMbass.. even though it is Christmas..


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## Shogun (Nov 26, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> well, then let's go change up Ramadan,, they souldn't be allowed to have it their way just cause their Muslims I bet you're too chickenshit to go there though aren't you??



how many motherfucking wal mart greeters ever tell you to have a happy fucking RAMADAN?


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## AllieBaba (Nov 26, 2008)

Happy Ramadan, Shogun.


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## AllieBaba (Nov 26, 2008)

but mostly they don't say it because they just don't know about it. Most of them are too old or of diminished capacity....they have a hard time making sure the stickers are out there for the kiddies.


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## WillowTree (Nov 26, 2008)

Shogun said:


> how many motherfucking wal mart greeters ever tell you to have a happy fucking RAMADAN?





and I don't think they should say happy fucking ramadan either do you?


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## KGB (Nov 26, 2008)

Shogun said:


> It's not your discretion to decide who says what, dogma junkie.  I don't recall anyone giving you jurisdiction to lord over who says what in their holiday greeting.  And, if xmas were merely a holyday instead of a HOLIday then we wound't be observing it on a federal level.  I suggest you take your complaining to the first amendment.



it's a holiday because it is a holy day simpleton.....


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## Shogun (Nov 26, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> and I don't think they should say happy fucking ramadan either do you?



I think they should say whatever it is that their corporate lords tell them to say.  In this case, HAPPY HOLIDAYS covers it all.


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## Shogun (Nov 26, 2008)

KGB said:


> it's a holiday because it is a holy day simpleton.....



gee, swift.. i guess that makes Veterans Day Holy too, eh?


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## KGB (Nov 26, 2008)

Shogun said:


> gee, swift.. i guess that makes Veterans Day Holy too, eh?



are you truly stupid or does ignorance just infect you on a daily basis.....

I'm willing to bet you aren't even aware that our laws are based on the 10 Commandments.....


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## Shogun (Nov 26, 2008)

KGB said:


> are you truly stupid or does ignorance just infect you on a daily basis.....
> 
> I'm willing to bet you aren't even aware that our laws are based on the 10 Commandments.....



yea dude.. nothing says ten commandments quite like a first amendment that specifically limits the input of your dogma in our government.  I mean, you KNOW how harsh our laws are when it comes to putting away criminals that have a god before the jewish god!  They are almost as bad as the criminal punishment for having false idols and no honoring our fathers and mothers!  I mean, thank GOD adultery is against the fucking law!  Lie and face a prison sentence?  lusting after my neighbors wife sure is a one way ticket to sing sing!

Next thing you know you'll be insisting that LABOR DAY is a holy day that venerates, uh.. the worship of LABOR..  yea.. thats the ticket.


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## Orange_Juice (Nov 26, 2008)

AllieBaba said:


> Happy Ramadan, Shogun.





Oh hell, Happy F'n Ramadan to everyone!


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## WillowTree (Nov 26, 2008)

now shut the hell up!


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## Shogun (Nov 26, 2008)

and Mohammed bless us, every one!


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## KGB (Nov 26, 2008)

Shogun said:


> yea dude.. nothing says ten commandments quite like a first amendment that specifically limits the input of your dogma in our government.  I mean, you KNOW how harsh our laws are when it comes to putting away criminals that have a god before the jewish god!  They are almost as bad as the criminal punishment for having false idols and no honoring our fathers and mothers!  I mean, thank GOD adultery is against the fucking law!  Lie and face a prison sentence?  lusting after my neighbors wife sure is a one way ticket to sing sing!
> 
> Next thing you know you'll be insisting that LABOR DAY is a holy day that venerates, uh.. the worship of LABOR..  yea.. thats the ticket.



laws against murder, theft, perjury, etc., are all based on the 10 Commandments moron.....


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## Shogun (Nov 26, 2008)

KGB said:


> laws against murder, theft, perjury, etc., are all based on the 10 Commandments moron.....



So, any nation regardless of popular dogma has laws based off the ten commandments just because they don't like to be murdered? whatever dude.  Hell, theft was against Hamurabi's laws too.. Too bad he came WAAAAAAAY before your dogma junkie bullshit ever became a leaf off of a burning bush.




thats about as profound as suggesting it takes holiness to validate a national holiday.  I tellya, federal employees must be some OBSERVANT motherfuckers!


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## KGB (Nov 26, 2008)

Shogun said:


> So, any nation regardless of popular dogma has laws based off the ten commandments just because they don't like to be murdered? whatever dude.  Hell, theft was against Hamurabi's laws too.. Too bad he came WAAAAAAAY before your dogma junkie bullshit ever became a leaf off of a burning bush.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



we aren't discussing an ancient Babylonian king simpleton, we are talking about how Western Culture & Law is based on the 10 Commandments.....we are also discussing how Christmas was a holy day long before it was a holiday, if you are too dumb to follow, not my problem.....


----------



## WillowTree (Nov 26, 2008)




----------



## SpidermanTuba (Nov 26, 2008)

KGB said:


> laws against murder, theft, perjury, etc., are all based on the 10 Commandments moron.....





ROTFLMAO!!!!

No they aren't, moron. Otherwise murder would be legal in India you tard


----------



## CrimsonWhite (Nov 26, 2008)

SpidermanTuba said:


> ROTFLMAO!!!!
> 
> No they aren't, moron. Otherwise murder would be legal in India you tard



Pot calls the kettle black.


----------



## ABikerSailor (Nov 26, 2008)

KGB said:


> we aren't discussing an ancient Babylonian king simpleton, we are talking about how Western Culture & Law is based on the 10 Commandments.....we are also discussing how Christmas was a holy day long before it was a holiday, if you are too dumb to follow, not my problem.....



You sound as stupid as Putin there dude.........

Christmas WAS NOT A HOLY DAY FIRST!  It DID NOT happen on Dec 25, it happened much earlier in the year, think end of summer/early fall.  The only reason that it was moved to December 25th, is because the Catholic church wanted to pull in as many Pagans as they could (to get them to be docile via religion), and so they started observing Christmas around the Winter Solstice.

Nope.......Christmas originally started out as a Pagan holiday.  Yule log, Christmas tree, December 25th........all pagan practices.

Try again Kant Get By.


----------



## Shogun (Nov 26, 2008)

KGB said:


> we aren't discussing an ancient Babylonian king simpleton, we are talking about how Western Culture & Law is based on the 10 Commandments.....we are also discussing how Christmas was a holy day long before it was a holiday, if you are too dumb to follow, not my problem.....




you might wanna go ahead and educate yourself about the origin of our written law before assuming shit about the ten commandments, yo.  Western culture's LAW is still rooted in Hamurabi.  I can show you his image on the supreme court if you are too stupid to figure this out for yourself.  Western culture is not based on the ten commandments or, AGAIN, I could not name more than half of them that we do not have laws to maintain.  Also, christian holy days are not the standard of FEDERALLY observed holidays.  Hence the mention of Labor day.  For real, tell me more about who is not following along.


----------



## YWN666 (Nov 26, 2008)

KGB said:


> I'm willing to bet you aren't even aware that our laws are based on the 10 Commandments.....



They are also based on tenets of other religions that have the same rules.  Christians can't claim exclusive ownership to moral behavior.


----------



## YWN666 (Nov 26, 2008)

KGB said:


> laws against murder, theft, perjury, etc., are all based on the 10 Commandments moron.....



So no other religion has a rule against murder?  You're daft.


----------



## YWN666 (Nov 26, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> and I don't think they should say happy fucking ramadan either do you?



Lady, your logic module is faulty. It's difficult to carry on a reasonable conversation with a person like you that doesn't have the capacity to reason.


----------



## del (Nov 26, 2008)

Shogun said:


> So, any nation regardless of popular dogma has laws based off the ten commandments just because they don't like to be murdered? whatever dude.  Hell, theft was against Hamurabi's laws too.. Too bad he came WAAAAAAAY before your dogma junkie bullshit ever became a leaf off of a burning bush.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



geek


----------



## WillowTree (Nov 26, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> Lady, your logic module is faulty. It's difficult to carry on a reasonable conversation with a person like you that doesn't have the capacity to reason.




go backwards and read in sequence,, then if you can't keep up we'll send you cliff notes.


----------



## catzmeow (Nov 26, 2008)

ABikerSailor said:


> Nope.......Christmas originally started out as a Pagan holiday.  Yule log, Christmas tree, December 25th........all pagan practices.
> 
> Try again Kant Get By.



And, as a heathen, we will continue celebrating it, happily, at my house.


----------



## Old Rocks (Nov 26, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Nope.  What bothers us is the slow erosion of God from . . . . everything.  You don't notice it because it isn't important to you.
> 
> BTW, what stores do you shop at that have Christmas greeters?  The only store where I see greeters is Kohls . . .and they just want me to open a credit card account.



Uh, if your God is that powerful, can she not take care of the problem herself


----------



## catzmeow (Nov 26, 2008)

Shogun said:


> you might wanna go ahead and educate yourself about the origin of our written law before assuming shit about the ten commandments, yo.  Western culture's LAW is still rooted in Hamurabi.  I can show you his image on the supreme court if you are too stupid to figure this out for yourself.  Western culture is not based on the ten commandments or, AGAIN, I could not name more than half of them that we do not have laws to maintain.  Also, christian holy days are not the standard of FEDERALLY observed holidays.  Hence the mention of Labor day.  For real, tell me more about who is not following along.



Actually, our laws have a lot more in common with the laws of ancient Rome and Greece, and those of the Germanic tribes in the early middle ages.  Of course, still pagan.


----------



## catzmeow (Nov 26, 2008)

Old Rocks said:


> Uh, if your God is that powerful, can she not take care of the problem herself



No.  The all-powerful God is completely reliant upon greeters at local consumer outposts to transmit his all-important message of hope and peace.  Durr.


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## Caligirl (Nov 26, 2008)

Muahahahaha the war on christmas has begun and we have won the first battle. Next we will insist that Happy Holidays is replaced with words that have no holy etymology, namely "Happy Vacation Days!"

Then we will remove Days from the greeting, as it will be deemed an infringement on personal liberties to decide for others how long one should recognize the season. Happy Vacation! 

Then for the penultimate battle, we will remove Happy from the greeting because the etymology of happy shares a root with lucky, muahahaa, so lucky is an appeal to fortune, or forces outside the natural realm. 

The greeting will be simply, "Vacation!" 

The exclamation point has to go, it is too emotive. The greeting will be "Vacation." Said in a monotone. Under some circumstances, Walmart employees may simply greet people with a shortened version as they enter the store, "Vacate." 

God cannot possibly survive such an onslaught!  Muahahahahaha!!!!!!!

<giggle> sorry, I obviously fall on the side of feeling very unthreatened by whatever people wish to say at Christmas.


----------



## SpidermanTuba (Nov 27, 2008)

CrimsonWhite said:


> Pot calls the kettle black.


fail


----------



## YWN666 (Nov 27, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> go backwards and read in sequence,, then if you can't keep up we'll send you cliff notes.



I already read the crap you postd.  You either don't understand what is being discussed or you're being deceitful to avoid admitting that you're wrong.


----------



## Gunny (Nov 27, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> I didn't say Christmas is not fair, you dumbass.
> What is not fair is you whiney christians wanting retailers to wish Merry Christmas to *everyone* just because it suits *you*.



Who gives a fuck?  The holiday is Christmas.  What is it you goobs tell me about the garbage that's on my TV?  If you don't like it, turn it off?

If you don't like something that says Merry Christmas then don't fucking look.  Or is there some rightwing religious fanatic with 26" biceps walking behind you every step of the way and twisting your head and forcing you to look?

This is a bunch of whining and snivelling from those who just feel compelled to attack anything they don't believe in.

Don't celebrate Christmas.  Don't get presents, have a nice feast and sit outside by the fire and party your ass off.  I'm going to.  You can watch reruns of the movie you starred in --"The Caine Mutiny"-- all night for all I give a shit.


----------



## YWN666 (Nov 27, 2008)

Here is a synopsis of the controversy: It falls into 2 categories.
1. Religious displays on government property
There are complaints that Christmas is being ruined for some christians because Christian religious displays are not permitted on government property.  It is not persecution of christians because other religions can't have their display on government property either.  It is a constitutional violation.  If having your own religious displays on your own property is not enough and you can't enjoy your Christmas without seeing a Christmas display on the town hall lawn, then that is YOUR problem.
2. Retailers using generic holiday displays/greetings.
I see no problem with this.  The retailer doesn't know the religious beliefs of each individual customer, so in order to avoid alienating customers, a generic greeting is used.  Retailers give their employees the discretion to use a specific holiday greeting if they know that the customer celebrates a certain holiday. People like Bill O'Reilly would have us believe that every retailer should wish every customer a Merry Christmas but why would the retailer risk losing non-christian customers if he can address everyone with a generic greeting?  If your christmas is ruined because someone wished you a Happy Holiday instead of Merry Christmas, then you have some issues.  It gets tiring to hear some christians whine when someone doesn't cater exlusively to christians and intead is respectful of all beliefs (being respectful and fair to all? - what a _horrible_ thing to do!).


----------



## Gunny (Nov 27, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> I see no evidence of it.  I see Christmas trees in the stores and on people's front lawns.  I saw Santa Claus in the mall and he was not being led away in cuffs.  I actually hear people talking about Christmas without being arrested.  Imagine that.



Of course you don't.  You don't want to.  Doesn't suit your agenda.


----------



## YWN666 (Nov 27, 2008)

Gunny said:


> If you don't like something that says Merry Christmas then don't fucking look.  Or is there some rightwing religious fanatic with 26" biceps walking behind you every step of the way and twisting your head and forcing you to look?



Wow, that's not even the issue, Gomer.


----------



## Gunny (Nov 27, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Of course there's a war.  But to those who don't care about God they don't see it because it doesn't matter to them.
> 
> My guess is that every year someone new will come along and stir the pot on this topic.  Chicken littles?  Some are; most aren't.  I think most are just fed up with all the PC crap.



IMO, we as a society have lost the meaning of Christmas from any religious standpoint.  Perhaps individually some have not.  When I was a kid, Christmas WAS about celebrating the birth of Christ.  This however WAS a far different nation that what it has devolved into.

Christmas now is about getting the coolest, best, most expensive presents.  It's about commercialism and having to start buying gifts in June just to make sure everybody gets one.

When I say chiken littles, I refer to the people who see every little change as "OMG ... it's the War on Christmas."  

I like caligirl's natural progression that ends with just the word "vaction." That's what PC will do to it.


----------



## YWN666 (Nov 27, 2008)

_Originally Posted by YWN666  
I see no evidence of it. I see Christmas trees in the stores and on people's front lawns. I saw Santa Claus in the mall and he was not being led away in cuffs. I actually hear people talking about Christmas without being arrested. Imagine that._



Gunny said:


> Of course you don't.  You don't want to.  Doesn't suit your agenda.



Listen to your argument.  I said I see christmas trees in stores so that means I see no evidence of a war on christmas.  You then say I don't see it because I don't want to? I don't see what - the absence of christmas trees?  Of coure not because they are there, you idiot.  Think about what you write _before_ you post it.


----------



## Gunny (Nov 27, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> Wow, that's not even the issue, Gomer.



The hell it isn't, numbnuts.  It's a direct response to something YOU posted.


----------



## WillowTree (Nov 27, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> Wow, that's not even the issue, Gomer.





Here DUmmie read this article, them perhaps you can understand how stoopid you people really sound.. over!




http://www.usmessageboard.com/curre...fibrosis-too-white-for-ottawa-fundraiser.html


----------



## YWN666 (Nov 27, 2008)

Gunny said:


> The hell it isn't, numbnuts.  It's a direct response to something YOU posted.




Bullshit.  I never said I don't like anything that says Merry Christmas.


----------



## Gunny (Nov 27, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> _Originally Posted by YWN666
> I see no evidence of it. I see Christmas trees in the stores and on people's front lawns. I saw Santa Claus in the mall and he was not being led away in cuffs. I actually hear people talking about Christmas without being arrested. Imagine that._
> 
> 
> ...



I have a better idea, Einstein ... why don't you pick the post I responded to and not one I didn't before you try any more of your disengenuous bullshit on me?

Edit:  I reread the post.  My response was to your saying you see no evidence of it, not that other blather you tacked on to the end.  I see a Christmas tree so there's no war on Christmas.  Sure thing.  Want to buy some West Texas swampland?


----------



## YWN666 (Nov 27, 2008)

Gunny said:


> IMO, we as a society have lost the meaning of Christmas from any religious standpoint.  Perhaps individually some have not.  When I was a kid, Christmas WAS about celebrating the birth of Christ.  This however WAS a far different nation that what it has devolved into.



So someone in a department store saying Happy Holiday to another customer is going to ruin the meaning of Christmas for YOU?  Rather selfish, don't you think?


----------



## Gunny (Nov 27, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> So someone in a department store saying Happy Holiday to another customer is going to ruin the meaning of Christmas for YOU?  Rather selfish, don't you think?



Where'd you learn reading and comprehension?  I said nothing of the sort.  Not even close enough for any rational person to get YOUR take on it.


----------



## Old Rocks (Nov 27, 2008)

LOL!!!  This is one funny thread. Oh well, may you all have a great Thankgiving. Gain ten pounds. Tell the people that are important to you that they are. Reflect on the wonder of life and seasons. Love well and live happily, my freinds.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Nov 27, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> And that ruins Christmas for you?  Does a store have to have jesus displayed in order for you and your family to celebrate christmas at home?



No it doesn't ruin anything for me but you are missing the point.  The focus of Christmas isn't Santa and trees and presents and candy canes.  Sure all those things are _part _of Christmas, but the big shebang is about the birth of Jesus Christ and because the minority of non-Christians bellyached about it 'not being fair calling it Christmas' it all disappeared and changed to holidays.  THAT's what people object to.  It isn't 'holiday', it's the lack of Christmas.  



> Does the store patronized by people of many different religions have to cater exclusively to christians??



Of course not but a store that is patronized by people of many different religions should cater to ALL and not exclude Christmas because_ some _may find it offensive.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Nov 27, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> But is should matter to them because it matters to YOU?  Well, pardon us!



Once again, missing the point.  I'm not saying it _should_ matter to you just because it matters to me.  I'm saying . . . _you _don't see the disappearance of Christmas from the mainstream because it isn't important to you.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Nov 27, 2008)

Shogun said:


> but you don't have jurisdiction over EVERYTHING.  Welcome to fucking reality where, in fact, you have to share the world with others who don't share your faith.  The world is not something for you dogma junkies to burn a jesus brand into just because you feel like peeing on territory.  sorry to burst your bubble.



Who ever said we wanted jurisdiction over everything?  How is 'Merry Christmas' burning a Jesus brand into things?


----------



## mattskramer (Nov 27, 2008)

Use the relatively free market place to influence what you want.  If you want the private sector to promote Merry Christmas rather than Seasons Greetings then write letters and threaten boycotts if the private businesses dont comply with your wishes.  Frequent those stores that do display nativity scenes and proclaim Merry Christmas.  

Those who are bothered by industry pushing Christmas can do the flip side of the same coin.  They are free to boycott such stores and write letters complaining about their focus on Christmas.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Nov 27, 2008)

Shogun said:


> how does a retail greeter that says happy holidays extract the jesus from YOUR personal christmas experience?  Should we all dress up like the fucking nativity scene before stepping out into public between dec. 12 and Jan1?  Should we all be forced to recite the customary "peace be with you" instead of any other greeting just because you seem to need actors to validate your faith?  Let's trade that turkey for some wine and crckers and feast on some blood of christ just because YOU don't think the world is saturated with christianity.  We can force all other non-english speaking americans to speak in tongues instead of their primary language and make any newborn that pops out of a vagina during the entire season sleep in mangers.  in barns.  You know, anything less would be an obvious incitement of a war on christmas....




What is this obession with retail greeters?  If someone wishes me 'happy holiday' I return the greeting with "Merry Christmas'.  I am extending a Merry Christmas because that's what I believe; I am not offended by someone saying happy holidays, happy Hanukah.  I am offended when this is _the only greeting_ that is stated for fear of hurting someone's feelings.  Are you so insecure in your non-Christianity that you would be offended if someone said Merry Christmas to you?  Yet you don't think it should be included in any type of greeting, only 'happy holidays' because that's what _you_ believe?

Yes I know, your argument is 'happy holidays' covers everything and everyone.  What you don't see, again because it isn't important to you, that by elminiating the word 'Christmas' you are lumping it into the generic, catch all category of holiday.  Please spare everyone the 'but it started out pagan not holy' blather; Christmas today is a Holy day and by implying it is nothing more than a holiday you de-emphasize Christmas as a religious celebration and reduce it's importance.  You trivialize it.   Sorry to burst your bubble but that just won't do.

When the weathermen put up their weather calendar during this time of year and Hanukah rolls around they put a picture of a menorah on the calendar.  When Christmas rolls around they put up a picture of Santa, candy canes, maybe a tree.  But they never put up a picture of baby Jesus in a manger, even though that is what the celebration of the day is about for 85% of the population.  But I'm not suppose to notice or be offended.  Changing it to 'holiday tree', calling it a 'holiday parade', no sign of Jesus anywhere on the horizon for fear of offending those who don't believe yet . . . offending the vast majority of those who do believe.  

I see Christmas being replaced with holiday and someday there may be a generation that has no idea there ever was Christmas on mainstreet.  In light of the fact that 85% of the country is Christian, how is this ok?  Why is it ok for the 15% who are not Christian to force their view of the world on the 85% of those who are Christian?  Why not have signs in stores saying 'Merry Christmas' and 'Happy Holidays' and 'Happy Hanukah'?  If you want to be all inclusive then stop excluding Christmas.

BTW, you are such an angry basement cat.  Is this how you look, cause it's sure how you sound. I hope you eat some holiday fowl as it may improve your disposition.


----------



## jillian (Nov 27, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Once again, missing the point.  I'm not saying it _should_ matter to you just because it matters to me.  I'm saying . . . _you _don't see the disappearance of Christmas from the mainstream because it isn't important to you.



With the percentage of christians in this country, Christmas is hardly disappearing.

I think its just good manners to wish people a happy holiday if you don't know what they're celebrating.


----------



## Annie (Nov 27, 2008)

Having some dealings with Jews I can say for the most part they wish me a Merry Christmas and I wish them a Happy Hanukkah. With the little shopping I've done this year in the malls, Merry Christmas is what I'm hearing and seeing, all over the place. My guess is with the economy they are appealing to years of old.


----------



## mattskramer (Nov 27, 2008)

jillian said:


> With the percentage of christians in this country, Christmas is hardly disappearing.
> 
> I think its just good manners to wish people a happy holiday if you don't know what they're celebrating.



 My sentiments exactly but I would be even more careful and say "Season's Greetings".


----------



## YWN666 (Nov 28, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Once again, missing the point.  I'm not saying it _should_ matter to you just because it matters to me.  I'm saying . . . _you _don't see the disappearance of Christmas from the mainstream because it isn't important to you.




When a greeter in a retail store sees you entering the store and doesn't know you, what is the problem with him saying Happy Holidays if he doesn't know what your religious beliefs are?


----------



## YWN666 (Nov 28, 2008)

jillian said:


> With the percentage of christians in this country, Christmas is hardly disappearing.
> 
> I think its just good manners to wish people a happy holiday if you don't know what they're celebrating.



My thooughts exactly.  If christians are forcibly prevented from celebrating Christmas in their own homes or putting up a Christmas tree on their front lawn, THEN I will take this "war on christmas" bullshit seriously but so far I have not heard of any such thing happening.


----------



## YWN666 (Nov 28, 2008)

> When the weathermen put up their weather calendar during this time of year and Hanukah rolls around they put a picture of a menorah on the calendar. When Christmas rolls around they put up a picture of Santa, candy canes, maybe a tree. But they never put up a picture of baby Jesus in a manger, even though that is what the celebration of the day is about for 85% of the population. But I'm not suppose to notice or be offended. Changing it to 'holiday tree', calling it a 'holiday parade', no sign of Jesus anywhere on the horizon for fear of offending those who don't believe yet . . . offending the vast majority of those who do believe.



So you can't practice your religious beliefs in your own home because someone, somewhere isn't acknowledging your beliefs?  Nothing is being taken away from you.


----------



## YWN666 (Nov 28, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Once again, missing the point.  I'm not saying it _should_ matter to you just because it matters to me.  I'm saying . . . _you _don't see the disappearance of Christmas from the mainstream because it isn't important to you.




Is seeing jesus on television and in the stores essential to your religious beliefs? That's what I don't understand.  How does someone else's acknowledging your religious beliefs or not affect your ability to practice it?  It shouldn't.


----------



## editec (Nov 28, 2008)

When Christians start wishing each other_* "Happy Jesus' Birthday"*_ THEN I'll start really believing that Christmas is a religious holiday.

Until that time, it's a jolly grand excuse to celebrate December 25th.

Remember folks, the FIRST AMERICANS who banned Christmas were the _PURITANS._

They banned the celebration of Christmas in 1659. The fine for celebrating Christmas was 5 shillings.




> "The generality of Christmas-keepers observe that festival after such a manner as is highly dishonourable to the name of Christ. How few are there comparatively that spend those holidays (as they are called) after an holy manner. But they are consumed in Compotations, in Interludes, in playing at Cards, in Revellings, in excess of Wine, in mad Mirth ..."
> 
> _- Reverend Increase Mather, 1687_


----------



## KittenKoder (Nov 28, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> Is seeing jesus on television and in the stores essential to your religious beliefs? That's what I don't understand.  How does someone else's acknowledging your religious beliefs or not affect your ability to practice it?  It shouldn't.



The sad thing is it does to them, their myths are so twisted they need as many to follow them as possible so each can say "well the majority believe it so it must be true" instead of having true faith. The funny thing is, christmas has nothing to do with their religion except one tiny story they added, the rest is all rituals from other religions older than theirs.


----------



## Shogun (Nov 28, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Who ever said we wanted jurisdiction over everything?  How is 'Merry Christmas' burning a Jesus brand into things?



are you fucking dense?  Insisting that wal mart greeters recite your partilucalr flavor of dogma greetings is, in fact, trying to brand this entire season as belonging solely to christians.  Indeed, by evidence of this same trite fucking issue popping up every year that greeters don't fall in line with your opinion we can see how you want jurisdiction of the entire fucking nation.  Go be glad my kind are not chasing you around with lions, dogma junkie.


----------



## Orange_Juice (Nov 28, 2008)

I can't find the dates for Christmas or Easter in the Bible, why is that?


----------



## Shogun (Nov 28, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> What is this obession with retail greeters?  If someone wishes me 'happy holiday' I return the greeting with "Merry Christmas'.  I am extending a Merry Christmas because that's what I believe; I am not offended by someone saying happy holidays, happy Hanukah.  I am offended when this is _the only greeting_ that is stated for fear of hurting someone's feelings.  Are you so insecure in your non-Christianity that you would be offended if someone said Merry Christmas to you?  Yet you don't think it should be included in any type of greeting, only 'happy holidays' because that's what _you_ believe?
> 
> Yes I know, your argument is 'happy holidays' covers everything and everyone.  What you don't see, again because it isn't important to you, that by elminiating the word 'Christmas' you are lumping it into the generic, catch all category of holiday.  Please spare everyone the 'but it started out pagan not holy' blather; Christmas today is a Holy day and by implying it is nothing more than a holiday you de-emphasize Christmas as a religious celebration and reduce it's importance.  You trivialize it.   Sorry to burst your bubble but that just won't do.
> 
> ...



hey, a store should be able to decide exactly what it wants it's employees to say.  If Wal mart wants it's greetrs to wear a fucking tarzan suit and greet you with the cerimonial raindance of swahili tribes then so fucking be it.  Mentioning xmas just because your pussy hurts hearing happy holidays is really neither here nor there.  And yes, it IS ok to remove xmas from mainstreet since, again, you dogma junkie motherfuckers are not the sole entity that pays collective taxes to PAY for mainstreet.  You heard it right.. get your fucking mangers and camel-leading nativity scenes off of the courthouse lawn.  Get your fucking crying baby jesus out of the public square.    If you don't like it then take your dogma junkie ass to some other nation that doesn't have a pesky fucking separation of church and state.  NO ONE gives a flying, flaming fuck if your faith has a bruise on it just because you don't get to force everyone else to comply to your bullshit denominational opinion.

Hey, point another finger, crusader... It's just a matter of time before your kind lights a few torches and bombs a few stores to get your way any damn way.


----------



## Orange_Juice (Nov 28, 2008)

This is the real American Christmas Spirit

Worker dies at Long Island Wal-Mart after being trampled in Black Friday stampede



> A worker died after being trampled and a woman miscarried when hundreds of shoppers smashed through the doors of a Long Island Wal-Mart Friday morning, witnesses said.
> 
> The unidentified worker, employed as an overnight stock clerk, tried to hold back the unruly crowds just after the Valley Stream store opened at 5 a.m.
> 
> ...


----------



## editec (Nov 28, 2008)

Orange_Juice said:


> I can't find the dates for Christmas or Easter in the Bible, why is that?


 
Christmas you cannot find.

Easter's date is, I think, based on Passover's date, is it not?


----------



## YWN666 (Nov 28, 2008)

Orange_Juice said:


> This is the real American Christmas Spirit



Sad but not surprising.  How ironic is it to see people acting like barbarians in order to show their Christmas spirit?  That's one reason I will never go to any store on Black Friday - not worth the aggravation of dealing with the assholes.


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## ABikerSailor (Nov 28, 2008)

Orange_Juice said:


> I can't find the dates for Christmas or Easter in the Bible, why is that?



Because those days were originally pagan holidays.  Christmas is set for the Winter Solstice, and Easter is set for the Spring Solstice.  The Catholics (after they ripped off the belief system of the Jews), wanted to get all the pagans involved in their religion (easier to control the masses that way), so, they moved events around to synch up with the pagans and attract them.

Face it.......BOTH holidays are based in pagan roots.


----------



## ABikerSailor (Nov 28, 2008)

editec said:


> Christmas you cannot find.
> 
> Easter's date is, I think, based on Passover's date, is it not?



Supposedly, but it really isn't.

For instance.....last year Easter came BEFORE Passover. 

It's roots are pagan and actually based on the Spring Solstice.


----------



## Gunny (Nov 28, 2008)

ABikerSailor said:


> Because those days were originally pagan holidays.  Christmas is set for the Winter Solstice, and Easter is set for the Spring Solstice.  The Catholics (after they ripped off the belief system of the Jews), wanted to get all the pagans involved in their religion (easier to control the masses that way), so, they moved events around to synch up with the pagans and attract them.
> 
> Face it.......BOTH holidays are based in pagan roots.



Who cares?  Excuse to party.  Whiners go home.  The 4th of July is a celebration of our ancestors having committed High Treason against our King.  The BBQ and 12-pack of Corona with a few strategically places shots of Wild Turkey helps me live with it.


----------



## random3434 (Nov 28, 2008)

Question for my Jewish Friends:


My daughter asked me if Jewish people also put up Christmas trees. She has some friends who are jewish who do, but others that don't.

Do you?


----------



## jillian (Nov 28, 2008)

Echo Zulu said:


> Question for my Jewish Friends:
> 
> 
> My daughter asked me if Jewish people also put up Christmas trees. She has some friends who are jewish who do, but others that don't.
> ...



Nope... I enjoy other people's trees. But it isn't something we should be doing.


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## Shogun (Nov 28, 2008)

Gunny said:


> Who cares?  Excuse to party.  Whiners go home.  The 4th of July is a celebration of our ancestors having committed High Treason against our King.  The BBQ and 12-pack of Corona with a few strategically places shots of Wild Turkey helps me live with it.



wtf?  you calibrate Independence day with MEXICAN beer?  for SHAME!


----------



## ABikerSailor (Nov 28, 2008)

Shogun said:


> wtf?  you calibrate Independence day with MEXICAN beer?  for SHAME!



Hey......he said that the Wild Turkey helps him live with it.

Me?  I like Dalmore Scotch.

And beer.........


----------



## Zoom-boing (Nov 28, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> Is seeing jesus on television and in the stores essential to your religious beliefs? That's what I don't understand.  How does someone else's acknowledging your religious beliefs or not affect your ability to practice it?  It shouldn't.




Once again, missing the point.  Go back an read my previous posts.


----------



## catzmeow (Nov 28, 2008)

Shogun said:


> Go be glad my kind are not chasing you around with lions, dogma junkie.



Seriously.  THIS is what is considered persecution these days?  What puling weaklings Christians have turned into.


----------



## catzmeow (Nov 28, 2008)

Shogun said:


> wtf?  you calibrate Independence day with MEXICAN beer?  for SHAME!



Don't Coronas really belong to September 16?


----------



## jeffrockit (Nov 28, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> They don't exclude christians.  Christians are treated like everyone else.  That seems to be the problem here.  Some christians want special treatment at everyone else's expense.



Calling the holiday what it is, is not special treatment. The only group that it is ok to bash without fear of retribution is white, male christians.


----------



## jeffrockit (Nov 28, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> I didn't say Christmas is not fair, you dumbass.
> What is not fair is you whiney christians wanting retailers to wish Merry Christmas to *everyone* just because it suits *you*.



No, because like it or not, that is the name of the federal holiday we all celebrate. it's not hard to say, try it..Christmas. Celebrating the birth of Christ. If non christians do not like the holiday...don't recognize it. Make sure you work on the 25th, and do no celebrating during the holiday you dislike. It is funny how retailers and such enjoy the increased business ($$$$) of the holidays and yet can't seem to call it by the name of the holiday. The Secular side can't change the name or tradition of something every time they are offended.
Merry Christmas to all


----------



## jeffrockit (Nov 28, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> So someone in a department store saying Happy Holiday to another customer is going to ruin the meaning of Christmas for YOU?  Rather selfish, don't you think?



No it is the reason behind why they can't or don't say it.


----------



## jeffrockit (Nov 28, 2008)

Hey, point another finger, crusader... It's just a matter of time before your kind lights a few torches and bombs a few stores to get your way any damn way.[/QUOTE]

Naw that would be the Muslims. Also, learn a few more buzz phrases as you have worn out that cute "Dogma Junkie" one.


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## Helsetemp (Nov 28, 2008)

Christmas is a fake holiday. Jesus was born when the Shepards moved flocks.


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## YWN666 (Nov 29, 2008)

jeffrockit said:


> Calling the holiday what it is, is not special treatment. The only group that it is ok to bash without fear of retribution is white, male christians.



But there are other holidays celebrated in December, so if a christian walks into a store and the greeter does not know if he is christian or jewish or muslim or whatever, do you still expect them to wish that person a Merry Christmas?  Why not Happy Hannukah?


----------



## YWN666 (Nov 29, 2008)

jeffrockit said:


> No it is the reason behind why they can't or don't say it.



Greeters in retail stores use a generic greeting unless they know that a specific customer celebrates a certaion holiday.  They have been given the discretion to use the appropriate greeting, so if Happy Holidays pisses you off so much, identify yourself as a christian as you approach the store so the greeter can wish you a Merry Christmas.  Will that make you happy?  I have a feeling it won't.


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## YWN666 (Nov 29, 2008)

jeffrockit said:


> No, because like it or not, that is the name of the federal holiday we all celebrate. it's not hard to say, try it..Christmas. Celebrating the birth of Christ. If non christians do not like the holiday...don't recognize it. Make sure you work on the 25th, and do no celebrating during the holiday you dislike.



I don't dislike Christmas and nothing would please me more to work that day and make double time and a half!



> It is funny how retailers and such enjoy the increased business ($$$$) of the holidays and yet can't seem to call it by the name of the holiday. The Secular side can't change the name or tradition of something every time they are offended.
> Merry Christmas to all



FYI, there are other religious holidays celebrated in December.  Sometimes christians have to acknowledge that they share this country with people of other religious beliefs.  BTW, does a greeter in Walmart saying Happy Holidays prevent you from calling it Christmas in your home or even in that store?  Nope.


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## editec (Nov 29, 2008)

When a greeter wishes me a Merry Christmas it destroys my FESTIVUS spirit.

It takes all the joy out of our traditional "Airing of the Grievances".

All the verve I get from the traditonal wrestling for dominance is lost.

I lack the spirit for the _Feats of Strength_ celebration

It tarnishes the glittering of the family Festivus Aluminum pole.

God damn you Christians!​ 



 
Goddamn you all to hell!​


----------



## Zoom-boing (Nov 29, 2008)

Shogun said:


> are you fucking dense?  Insisting that wal mart greeters recite your partilucalr flavor of dogma greetings is, in fact, trying to brand this entire season as belonging solely to christians.  Indeed, by evidence of this same trite fucking issue popping up every year that greeters don't fall in line with your opinion we can see how you want jurisdiction of the entire fucking nation.  Go be glad my kind are not chasing you around with lions, dogma junkie.





Shogun said:


> hey, a store should be able to decide exactly what it wants it's employees to say.  If Wal mart wants it's greetrs to wear a fucking tarzan suit and greet you with the cerimonial raindance of swahili tribes then so fucking be it.  Mentioning xmas just because your pussy hurts hearing happy holidays is really neither here nor there.  And yes, it IS ok to remove xmas from mainstreet since, again, you dogma junkie motherfuckers are not the sole entity that pays collective taxes to PAY for mainstreet.  You heard it right.. get your fucking mangers and camel-leading nativity scenes off of the courthouse lawn.  Get your fucking crying baby jesus out of the public square.    If you don't like it then take your dogma junkie ass to some other nation that doesn't have a pesky fucking separation of church and state.  NO ONE gives a flying, flaming fuck if your faith has a bruise on it just because you don't get to force everyone else to comply to your bullshit denominational opinion.
> 
> Hey, point another finger, crusader... It's just a matter of time before your kind lights a few torches and bombs a few stores to get your way any damn way.



Once again, what's with the greeters?  

Did you even bother to read what I wrote or did you just get into your angry basement cat mentality and immediately start spewing your nonsense?  Obviously the latter.  Try reading and comprehending what I'm saying rather than just ranting on so.  

If someone wishes me 'happy holiday' I return the greeting with "Merry Christmas'. I am extending a Merry Christmas because that's what I believe; I am not offended by someone saying happy holidays, happy Hanukah. I am offended when this is the only greeting that is stated for fear of hurting someone's feelings. Are you so insecure in your non-Christianity that you would be offended if someone said Merry Christmas to you? (btw, nice dodge on answering this).  Yet you don't think it should be included in any type of greeting, only 'happy holidays' because that's what _you _believe?  Why not have signs in stores saying 'Merry Christmas' and 'Happy Holidays' and 'Happy Hanukah'? _You're ok with greetings being all inclusive as long as it's on your terms and your terms excludes Christmas_.  Got it.

Here's your logic for not having religious Christmas anything in the mainstream:  _the majority of people are fucking Christians and think they can shove whinny baby fucking Jesus down my throat but I've got news for them they can shove Christmas and their dogma assed religion cause I don't like it.  _So the majority must cow tow to the minority because you (the minority) are too thinned skinned and too insecure to . . . just say 'hey Happy Holidays right back at ya'?  LOL Shogun, I have met many people in my life with varying degrees of insecurity and low self esteem but you, toots, take the cake.  What happened, did someone drop you in the baptismal font when you were a baby?  Oh wait, scratch that. Do you think if the baby Jesus is on display in a float you'll be baraged by Christians to convert?  Pssst, it doesn't work that way.  You're so afraid of religion or God that . . . you think if Merry Christmas and the religious aspect of this day are incorporated into the mainstream the sky will certainly fall down.   lol  Gunny is right, there are chicken littles in this war.


----------



## editec (Nov 29, 2008)

Remember every time you say Merry Christmas to a non-Christian, an heathen in hell gets stabbed with a pitchfork.

Fucking pushy Christians...wishing people a Merry Christmas. Who do they think they are, anyway. If I want to be unmerry on December 25th that's my right as an American

They're attacking the one true non-religion.

Are there no lions dens? No pillaries, no locks, no dunking ponds?!

Have we forgotten how to crucify people for their faith? 

When did we make it illegal to garotte Christians with a garland of mistletoe, anyway?

This nation has been going to hell ever since these Christians developed their obsession with celebrating December 25th.

These Christians and their message of love and forgiveness have already wrecked the Roman Empire with their damned holiday spirit, and I think America is going to go the same way.

*Atheists unite. *
*You have nothing to lose but your holiday spirit!*​


----------



## Zoom-boing (Nov 29, 2008)

jeffrockit said:


> No, because like it or not, that is the name of the federal holiday we all celebrate. it's not hard to say, try it..Christmas. Celebrating the birth of Christ. *If non christians do not like the holiday...don't recognize it.* Make sure you work on the 25th, and do no celebrating during the holiday you dislike. It is funny how retailers and such enjoy the increased business ($$$$) of the holidays and yet can't seem to call it by the name of the holiday.



But Jeff, they're afraid that if religion is brought back into mainstream Christmas they will be pummeled with bibles.  Waaaahhh!



> *The Secular side can't change the name or tradition of something every time they are offended*.
> Merry Christmas to all



Nope but they sure think they can.  They are displeased that we are pushing back. Gee guess that's just how us 'dogma junkies' roll, huh?


----------



## Shogun (Nov 29, 2008)

jeffrockit said:


> Hey, point another finger, crusader... It's just a matter of time before your kind lights a few torches and bombs a few stores to get your way any damn way.



Naw that would be the Muslims. Also, learn a few more buzz phrases as you have worn out that cute "Dogma Junkie" one.[/QUOTE]

I think I'll go ahead and keep using Dogma Junkie since i'm quite fond of the tone and it's inherent accuracy.

feel free to go fuck yourself, however, the next time you feel like doling out vocabulary advice!


----------



## Zoom-boing (Nov 29, 2008)

Shogun said:


> are you fucking dense?  Insisting that wal mart greeters recite your partilucalr flavor of dogma greetings is, in fact, trying to brand this entire season as belonging solely to christians.  Indeed, by evidence of this same trite fucking issue popping up every year that greeters don't fall in line with your opinion we can see how you want jurisdiction of the entire fucking nation.  *Go be glad my kind are not chasing you around with lions, dogma junkie*.



LOL, your 'lions' are pussycats.  Angry, hissing basement-hiding pussycats.  Hey, got any other catch phrases besides 'dogma junkie'?  You've really worn this one out.  Oh and in case I forget later on -- Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to you and yours.  (Quick look up -- is the sky falling?)


----------



## Shogun (Nov 29, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> Seriously.  THIS is what is considered persecution these days?  What puling weaklings Christians have turned into.



EXACTLY.  Just think, there was a time when dogma junkie motherfuckers had to hide their faith or be killed for it.  NOW, boohoo motherfuckers fall over and act wounded if a friggin DOOR GREETER doesn't stroke their little fucking religious ego.


----------



## Shogun (Nov 29, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Once again, what's with the greeters?
> 
> Did you even bother to read what I wrote or did you just get into your angry basement cat mentality and immediately start spewing your nonsense?  Obviously the latter.  Try reading and comprehending what I'm saying rather than just ranting on so.
> 
> ...



indeed, it sure is the NON CHRISTIANS all getting bent out of fucking shape EVERY YEAR because TARGET doesn't conform to what SECULARISTS want to hear, eh?



typical christian bitch baby trying to rationalize seasonal stupidity.




No, stupid, the majority are dealing with the decisions of RETAILERS who are not as interested in alienating consumers based on their religious beliefs as you are.  That, much like gravity and heliocentrism, is the reality, you nutter.

indeed, it takes low self esteem to point out who are the fucking crybabies year after YEAR after goddamn YEAR, eh?  Perhaps if you take that cross out of your ass and realize that this nation isn't required to jump on its knees just because your personal faith needs validation from retailers...


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## Shogun (Nov 29, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> LOL, your 'lions' are pussycats.  Angry, hissing basement-hiding pussycats.  Hey, got any other catch phrases besides 'dogma junkie'?  You've really worn this one out.  Oh and in case I forget later on -- Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to you and yours.  (Quick look up -- is the sky falling?)



one wouldn't think they are pussy cats from the high pitched sirens that are you crybaby pansies every HOLIDAY season...  

don't blame me if "dogma junkie" hits the nail on the head.  Remember that the next time you enter a wal mart and your pussy starts to bleed at hearing a door greeter wishing you a happy HOLIDAYS.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Nov 29, 2008)

Shogun said:


> No, stupid, the majority are dealing with the decisions of RETAILERS who are *not as interested in alienating consumers based on their religious beliefs *as you are.



You are aware that Christmas is a religious holiday and that 85% of this country are Christians, right?  Just checking.



> *indeed, it takes low self esteem* to point out who are the fucking crybabies year after YEAR after goddamn YEAR, eh?



Aw quit being mad 'cause I nailed you as a low self-esteem and insecure chicken first.   



> Perhaps if you take that cross out of your ass and realize that this nation isn't required to jump on its knees just because your personal faith needs validation from retailers...



It's so pathetic when some just can't wrap their head around information.  Go back and reread my posts Shogun.  Read slowly . . . . maybe you will comprehend.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Nov 29, 2008)

Shogun said:


> one wouldn't think they are pussy cats from the high pitched sirens that are you crybaby pansies every HOLIDAY season...
> 
> don't blame me if "dogma junkie" hits the nail on the head.  Remember that *the next time you enter a wal mart *and your pussy starts to bleed at hearing a door greeter wishing you a happy HOLIDAYS.



THANK YOU for finally providing me with what store uses 'store greeters'.  Took you long enough.


----------



## Shogun (Nov 29, 2008)

*You are aware that Christmas is a religious holiday and that 85% of this country are Christians, right?  Just checking.*

oh so that means retailers should be compelled to ignore 15% of the fucking population since your fragile fucking faith might crumble as the sound of "happy holidays"?

boofuckinghoo, pussy.

*
Aw quit being mad 'cause I nailed you as a low self-esteem and insecure chicken first.  * 

who is mad?  I'm the one lampooning you, nutter.  It's pretty damn ironic for a dogma junkie to call out anyone for low self esteem during the HOLIDAY season, eh?

*

It's so pathetic when some just can't wrap their head around information.  Go back and reread my posts Shogun.  Read slowly . . . . maybe you will comprehend.

*


No, whats pathetic is that dogma junkie motherfuckers, ONCE AGAIN, have to act like bleeding martyrs year after year just because door greeters are not falling over themselves to validate your personal faith.  Again, which of us is the one cryin every damn year about this?  Hint, for you non-science loving nutters, it's not we secularists.


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## Shogun (Nov 29, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> THANK YOU for finally providing me with what store uses 'store greeters'.  Took you long enough.



if you don't wear your cross on your sleeve then don't expect a door greeter to magically assume to know what your particular flavor of dogma is in order to respond to you how you'd prefere.  Again, be glad that your bitch ass is not being shased down by a hungry lion.  Your pussified, seasonal crocodile tears make everything about your faith a total farce.

Hey, jesus died on the cross so that DOOR GREETERS have to say "merry xmas"!


----------



## WhiteLion (Nov 29, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> THANK YOU for finally providing me with what store uses 'store greeters'.  Took you long enough.


Zoom-boing dont argue with Shogun hes obviously a stoned out crackhead, Shogun feeds on his inability to think beyond his next meth hit...Anyone with half a brain can look at his sentence structure, demeanor, and foul metaphors and tell this guy is in desperate need of a long long stay at the mental hospital nearest him, therefore not worth your reply let alone anyone elses on these message boards........
MARRY CHRISTMAS by the way


----------



## Zoom-boing (Nov 29, 2008)

Shogun said:


> *You are aware that Christmas is a religious holiday and that 85% of this country are Christians, right?  Just checking.*
> 
> oh so that means retailers should be compelled to ignore 15% of the fucking population since your fragile fucking faith might crumble as the sound of "happy holidays"?




Once again Shogun, go back and read my posts.  Show me where I ever posted that 'retailers Should be compelled to ignore 15% of the fucking population'.  You are really duh.  I said 'why not have various signs saying 'Merry Christmas' and 'Happy Holidays' and 'Happy Hanakah'.  Your denseness is amazing.



> *
> Aw quit being mad 'cause I nailed you as a low self-esteem and insecure chicken first.  *
> 
> who is mad?  I'm the one lampooning you, nutter.  It's pretty damn ironic for a dogma junkie to call out anyone for low self esteem during the HOLIDAY season, eh?



Oh yes, the old 'you motherfucking Christian why aren't you turning the other cheek you shithead' argument.  You're so annoyed and angry -- I am amused.  Thank you.



> *It's so pathetic when some just can't wrap their head around information.  Go back and reread my posts Shogun.  Read slowly . . . . maybe you will comprehend.
> *
> 
> 
> No, whats pathetic is that dogma junkie motherfuckers, ONCE AGAIN, have to act like bleeding martyrs year after year just because door greeters are not falling over themselves to validate your personal faith.  Again, which of us is the one cryin every damn year about this?  Hint, for you non-science loving nutters, it's not we secularists.



Now Shogun, I am really beginning to think that you have the hots for some Wal-mart door greeter.  'Cryin every damn year'?  LOL, you are priceless.  Nah, just fed up with your secular bullshit.  Newsflash, we're not going away -- guess you'll just have to adjust.


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## Zoom-boing (Nov 29, 2008)

WhiteLion said:


> Zoom-boing dont argue with Shogun hes obviously a stoned out crackhead, Shogun feeds on his inability to think beyond his next meth hit...Anyone with half a brain can look at *his sentence structure*, demeanor, and foul metaphors and tell this guy is in desperate need of a long long stay at the mental hospital nearest him, therefore not worth your reply let alone anyone elses on these message boards........
> MARRY CHRISTMAS by the way



Wow, you found sentence structure?  LOL  

Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukah, Happy Kwanza, Happy Thanksgiving, Happy New Years and Happy Holidays (you know, in case I missed any ) to you too.


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## catzmeow (Nov 29, 2008)

Shogun said:


> EXACTLY.  Just think, there was a time when dogma junkie motherfuckers had to hide their faith or be killed for it.  NOW, boohoo motherfuckers fall over and act wounded if a friggin DOOR GREETER doesn't stroke their little fucking religious ego.



You know, failing to greet a Christian properly is EXACTLY on par with forcing them to hide in the catacombs to avoid being tortured to death.  THIS IS WAR ON FAITH, people.  Stop snickering.  The Christians are UNDER ATTACK.  Poor Christians.  They lose heart and faith if everyone doesn't embrace and support their particular religious values.

As for my family, we plan to be historically accurate and wish everyone a cool Yule.    Hope we don't unwittingly ruffle any sheep feathers.  After all, Yule is where most of our favorite "Christmas" traditions came from, anyway.  Think we'll go all out pagan this year and trim some mistletoe from the oak in the backyard.  Everyone needs an excuse for profligate making out over the holidays.  We'll even put up some nativity scenes in the house since all that was stolen from the Mithraics, anyway.


----------



## Caligirl (Nov 29, 2008)

WhiteLion said:


> Zoom-boing dont argue with Shogun hes obviously a stoned out crackhead, Shogun feeds on his inability to think beyond his next meth hit...Anyone with half a brain can look at his sentence structure, demeanor, and foul metaphors and tell this guy is in desperate need of a long long stay at the mental hospital nearest him, therefore not worth your reply let alone anyone elses on these message boards........
> MARRY CHRISTMAS by the way



Marry Christmas?

you really *do *love Christmas, eh?


----------



## editec (Nov 29, 2008)

Shogun said:


> Hey, jesus died on the cross so that DOOR GREETERS have to say "merry xmas"!


 
Yeah, doesn't make a whole lotta sense to me, either.

But hey we all know how mysterious his ways were, right?

Maybe this door greeter business is more important to Jesus than we'd imagined?

Based on the actions of my fellow Christians throughout history, I have to tell you that whole _peace and botherhood_ business that JC also mentioned doesn't get much traction.

So here we are clinging to a saluation for our salvation.

Kinda sad, really.


----------



## Old Rocks (Nov 29, 2008)

jeffrockit said:


> Calling the holiday what it is, is not special treatment. The only group that it is ok to bash without fear of retribution is white, male christians.



Poor, poor baby. Do you want a hankerchef for your crocodile tears.


----------



## Old Rocks (Nov 29, 2008)

editec said:


> Yeah, doesn't make a whole lotta sense to me, either.
> 
> But hey we all know how mysterious his ways were, right?
> 
> ...




Well, if the "Christians" of the O'Rielly ilk make enough noise about this sort of nonsense, maybe people will fail to notice how little they heed the real message of Christ. Do wars of aggression, torture people, let the little children of this nation go without health care, but never, never forget to say "Merrry Christmas". Sad commentary on the state of Christianity in the nation and the one's on this board that are squaking and whining about this non-issue.


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## editec (Nov 29, 2008)

Old Rocks said:


> > Well, if the "Christians" of the O'Rielly ilk make enough noise about this sort of nonsense, maybe people will fail to notice how little they heed the real message of Christ.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## ABikerSailor (Nov 29, 2008)

Easiest way to take care of the Darwin evangelists it to simply TELL THEM that God uses evolution as a way to further creation.

It's referred to in the Torah for crying out loud.


----------



## Ravi (Nov 29, 2008)

Jesus just called. He's laughing his ass off reading this thread.


----------



## WillowTree (Nov 29, 2008)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiWaczggDQA&feature=related]YouTube - Achmed's very special christmas special part 1/3[/ame]


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## WhiteLion (Nov 29, 2008)

Ravi said:


> Jesus just called. He's laughing his ass off reading this thread. Do test tube babies have navels?


Do test tubies have parents??


----------



## WhiteLion (Nov 29, 2008)

Caligirl said:


> Marry Christmas?
> 
> you really *do *love Christmas, eh?


Caligirl i love the entity behind it *JESUS THE CHRIST*, Jesus the Christian?, Jesus the Christmas? lover of my soul.......
Im not really the mean Lion depicted in my avatar, as the WhiteLion's on the prowl for Freedom(righteous freedom)a patriot, an nothing else will do, i will not settle for less, i will fight if push comes to shove....

Patrick Henry, March 23, 1775.  It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace-- but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death! 

And uh Merry Christmas

Heres a clip of Christian the Lion, true friends to the end, synonymous with Jesus the Christ the Lion of the tribe of Judah, King of Kings... [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adYbFQFXG0U[/ame]


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## WhiteLion (Nov 29, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> You know, failing to greet a Christian properly is EXACTLY on par with forcing them to hide in the catacombs to avoid being tortured to death.  THIS IS WAR ON FAITH, people.  Stop snickering.  The Christians are UNDER ATTACK.  Poor Christians.  They lose heart and faith if everyone doesn't embrace and support their particular religious values.
> 
> As for my family, we plan to be historically accurate and wish everyone a cool Yule.    Hope we don't unwittingly ruffle any sheep feathers.  After all, Yule is where most of our favorite "Christmas" traditions came from, anyway.  Think we'll go all out pagan this year and trim some mistletoe from the oak in the backyard.  Everyone needs an excuse for profligate making out over the holidays.  We'll even put up some nativity scenes in the house since all that was stolen from the Mithraics, anyway.


----------



## WhiteLion (Nov 29, 2008)

jeffrockit said:


> Calling the holiday what it is, is not special treatment. The only group that it is ok to bash without fear of retribution is white, male christians.


Dead Nuts(exactly), we allowed it jeffrockit, but no more free lunch...


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## WillowTree (Nov 30, 2008)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SQMXO43Hig&feature=related]YouTube - We Wish You a Merry Christmas - Christmas Music[/ame]




[you tube] v=2SQMXO43Hig&feature=related/[you tube]


----------



## Shogun (Dec 1, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> You know, *failing to greet a Christian properly is EXACTLY on par with forcing them to hide in the catacombs* to avoid being tortured to death.  THIS IS WAR ON FAITH, people.  Stop snickering.  The Christians are UNDER ATTACK.  Poor Christians.  They lose heart and faith if everyone doesn't embrace and support their particular religious values.
> 
> As for my family, we plan to be historically accurate and wish everyone a cool Yule.    Hope we don't unwittingly ruffle any sheep feathers.  After all, Yule is where most of our favorite "Christmas" traditions came from, anyway.  Think we'll go all out pagan this year and trim some mistletoe from the oak in the backyard.  Everyone needs an excuse for profligate making out over the holidays.  We'll even put up some nativity scenes in the house since all that was stolen from the Mithraics, anyway.






yea, i tellya.. forcing christians to hide in fucking tombs and caves SURE IS *JUST LIKE* door greeters not saying merry xmas!


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## editec (Dec 1, 2008)

> cool Yule


 
I like it!


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 1, 2008)

'War on Christmas' Nonsense is a War on Secularists



By Polly Toynbee,


My thanks to the kind reader who sent me the program from this year's Christmas carol service at the Old Royal Naval College chapel in Greenwich. It was written by the Rev Jules Gomes, chaplain of the college, and of Trinity College of Music, and also of the University of Greenwich.


Here is the good chaplain's Christmas message: "More Christians have been martyred for their faith in the last century than in any other period of church history. Yesterday's Herod is today's Richard Dawkins and Polly Toynbee, seeking the total extermination of all forms of Christianity. The great irony is that the greatest opposition to Christ comes from so-called broad-minded people who seek to ban Christmas so that people of other faiths are not offended."


Yes, it is that time of year when secularists, atheists and humanists become the Grinches who stole Christmas. As an honorary associate of the National Secular Society and president of the British Humanist Association, here is my cue to offer you all a rattling good Christmas "Bah, humbug!" Except, of course, it's all utter nonsense. No one is out to ban Christmas or Christianity - not atheists nor other faiths. Yet every year the same urban myths are repeated about the banning of Christmas by some pantomime villain local authority suffering from "political correctness gone mad." King Rat Christmas wreckers are unearthed, and every year these turn out to be garbage stories, but they are stored in the attic for another airing next December.


I had at least five calls from broadcasters this year inviting me to say it would be a jolly good thing if Christmas were rebranded Winterval. That myth began years ago when Birmingham city council tried to spread the festive season across the long winter - though it never replaced Christmas, which came with official celebrations in the middle of it. But the Winterval myth lives on. This year it was joined by this: "God rest ye merry people all, Let nothing go to waste, So let us all this Decemberval, Recycle now with haste." Although written by a vicar for Warrington's Christmas recycling campaign, watch Decemberval enter anti-Christmas demonology.


Christmas opinion polls stir the same pot. Theos, the religious thinktank, found a quarter of adults and over a third of 18- to 24-year-olds couldn't say where Jesus was born. Over half didn't know John the Baptist was Jesus's cousin; over a quarter didn't know who told Mary she was pregnant; and 78% had no idea where Mary and Joseph fled to escape Herod. Even the faithful were ignorant: only 36% of regular churchgoers got all four answers right. I regard this as awful. The loss of classical mythology has made much poetry, art and literature incomprehensible to most people. The loss of Christian mythology would make most European history and painting impenetrable. Secularists do not welcome ignorance as a substitute for declining faith.


Pursuing their annual "atheists are stealing Christmas" riff, a Sunday Telegraph survey of 100 schools found only one in five had a traditional nativity play this year, which is odd considering over a third of primaries are Christian. The sad truth is that some did no play, but others did Scrooge, Arabian Nights, Hansel and Gretel, or the Snow Queen, all also cultural treasures.


British Christians yearn to be martyrs, but frankly atheists are a pretty toothless substitute for lions. In a daft parliamentary debate this month on something called Christianophobia, Mark Pritchard MP accused the politically correct of banning religion from Christmas cards and advent calendars: "Many shoppers find it increasingly difficult to purchase greetings cards that refer to Jesus." Alas, market forces are probably rather stronger than humanist plots: with only 7% of people in church of a Sunday these days, Santa and the Snowman trump the nativity.


Evangelicals started a new myth this year that postage stamps with the Madonna and child are only sold under the counter: you have to ask for them, for fear of offending Muslims and Jews. Stuff and nonsense, retorted the Post Office. But you can bet this one will run and run - along with last year's myth that 70% of offices banned Christmas decorations for multicultural reasons. Another year it was the Red Cross banning cribs.


All this would just be seasonal silliness if it were not cover for a more sinister drumbeat. The right has taken to flying the "Christian" flag in ways that suggest none too subtly that foreigners - Muslims - are stealing our culture and traditions. "They" are stopping "us" celebrating Christmas and teaching Christian stories to our children. When Terry Sanderson, president of the National Secular Society, appeared on GMTV this week, although as usual he denied any atheist plot against Christmas, the theme in about 3,000 emails afterwards was: "We are not Muslims, our culture must not be silenced to avoid offending them."


The BNP has been quick to cash in. In the Christianophobia debate in parliament, the reported case of a BNP Christmas card was raised, "which portrays the holy family on the cover and inside are the words 'Heritage, Tradition and Culture.'" Pritchard warned television firms: "The fear of violence from a particular faith group should not be grounds for hand-selecting or targeting other faith groups who may choose to protest peacefully." Fear of Muslim violence is killing off peaceful Christianity, he implies. But blaming mythical secular political correctness is usually a cover for more sinister suggestions that "our way of life" is under threat from foreigners.


Hastening to defend themselves against the charge, Trevor Phillips, chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, assembled imams, rabbis, Sikh and Hindu leaders to protest that they had no objection to Christmas, asserting that they sent Christmas cards, they liked cribs, and "it's a great holiday for everyone." Leave Christmas alone was the message, addressed again to the hypothetical politically correct secularists.


But we are innocent. It is the Christians who are stirring this dangerous pot, inventing non-stories, yearning for martyrdom - and worse, fermenting an outraged sense among the mainly secular population that they had better call themselves Christian because, as the BNP says, British "Heritage, Tradition and Culture" (read Kultur) are under threat from Muslims. While pretending to attack us, covertly these Christians stir resentment against immigrants.


As more faith trouble brews, it becomes ever more important not to ban religions, but to keep religion out of all functions of the state. It needs to be taught in schools, acted out in nativity plays, too, if they want - but without dangerously segregating children by their faith in sectarian religious institutions. And at last we have at least one political party leader brave enough to admit, like most people, that he doesn't believe in God.


As for secularists and humanists at Christmas, Dawkins himself told a disappointed BBC interviewer that he loves singing carols. And so do I. Not just Away in a Manger or Oh Little Town nostalgic childhood tunes, but all the enjoyably rich and strange theology of "Lo! He abhors not the Virgin's womb? Veiled in flesh the Godhead see, Hail the incarnate Deity," and other such quaint delights.

*Follow the link for the entire article.*


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 1, 2008)

archy

Wednesday, October 22, 2008
*It's that time of year *
By John J. McKay
While most of us have our attention firmly riveted on the election and whatever feelings of excitement, dread, guarded hope, or please-make-it-be-over exhaustion that that might bring up, we may have temporarily forgotten the other national ritual that happens at this time of the year. I'm talking about the annual tantrum that conservative Christians throw over how horribly persecuted they are by an imaginary war on Christmas. The war as they see it has three prongs, local governments acknowledging the constitutional separation of church and state by refusing to pay for an official nativity scene, schools having "holiday" programs without overtly religious music (that constitution thingy again), and stores trying to be inclusive by using greetings like "happy holidays" or "season's greetings." In recent years, the last of those three has been the one that has most provoked their easily offended senses, leading them to proclaim widely ignored boycotts of any store that uses the offensive phrases. 

The holiday whine is a tradition that dates back to, at least, 1921 when Henry Ford wrote that there was a conspiracy of Jewish department store owners trying to destroy Christmas by--you guessed it--saying "happy holidays." Forty years later, the John Birch Society was imagining a war on Christmas run by the Communists through the UN. These days, the sinister force trying to make the baby Jesus cry is godless liberals like you and me.

Rob Boston has spotted the first major whine of the season. The Rev. Donald Wildmon of the American Family Association, an organization that specializes in unsuccessful boycotts against any business that even thinks about giving a fair shake to their gay employees, is selling buttons and bumper stickers that say "It's OK To Say Merry Christmas." 

The War on Christmas is big business for groups like Wildmon's. Keeping the faithful paranoid about persecution is a cash cow that keeps on giving. If Christians weren't paranoid that someone somewhere was undermining their faith and marriage, they might stop giving to people like Wildmon, Bill Donohue, and James Dobson. Then they'd have to lay off their big staffs and get a real job. We can't have them roaming the streets getting into trouble so we'd better do our best to oppress them. Besides, they are the only thing preventing total victory of our radical atheist, gay, and gay atheist agendas. So, everybody raise your right forefinger, turn toward Mt. Crumpet, and repeat after me, in your best Karloffian tones: "I must stop Christmas from coming!"

And Happy Holidays.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 1, 2008)

The Phony War on Christmas | keithboykin.com

By Keith Boykin, in politics
Wednesday, December 19 2007, 1:07PM

I got a call this morning from a producer at a TV news show asking me if I would come on to talk about Mike Huckabee's new "Christmas ad" that features the Republican presidential candidate discussing "the birth of Christ" in front of what some believe to be a Christian cross in the background. The host wanted to use the ad as a segue to discuss whether it was still acceptable to say "Merry Christmas" anymore. 

Of course it's acceptable, I responded to the producer, who was actually looking for someone to go on TV and say that it's not okay to say "Merry Christmas." I'm not the right guy for that show, I explained. The producer asked if I could think of someone else who might object to "Merry Christmas" wishes, and then it occurred to me that I really couldn't. All of which led me to question the phony belief that there is some sort of liberal "war on Christmas" being plotted by left-wing activists and academics with a politically correct agenda to secularize the holiday and deprive young kids of their Nintendo Wiis.

Believe it or not, it's the conservatives who are all bent out of shape about Huckabee's Christmas ad. Some Republicans are complaining that he's portraying himself as the only real Christian in the race. That's funny, I never saw that in the ad. I think they're just jealous because they didn't think of it themselves. I'm no fan of Mike Huckabee, but he has every right to appeal to the evangelical base of the Republican Party as he seeks the GOP nomination.

The Business of Christmas
Like most Americans, I celebrate Christmas. I refuse to go into debt to buy presents for everybody under the sun, but I do observe the holiday and exchange gifts with a few people who are closest to me. Back in the 1990s, I stopped buying gifts for everybody in my family and told them not to spend all their money buying gifts for me either. 

What happened every year is that I would receive some nice gifts that they really couldn't afford and then I would get the bill, so to speak. Some time around February I would get a call from the people who gave me nice gifts who wanted a loan to pay back their bills. After years of going through this routine, I made a suggestion. Instead of spending your money on buying me a Christmas gift, do me a favor and spend it paying your bills instead. I don't need a Christmas gift anyway, especially if you have to go into debt to buy it for me. 

Which leads me to the real villains of Christmas. Maybe villain is too strong a word, but it's not the liberal lefties who have secularized Christmas, as the conservatives charge. Instead, it's American business that has secularized the holiday. Blame it on capitalism. Business people have used Christmas to sell everything from screwdrivers to automobiles. They market clothing, colognes, perfumes, diamonds, furs, video games, TVs, VCRs, Ipods and Lexuses specifically for Christmas holiday sales.

The markets expect consumers to buy during the holiday season. If they don't buy, then businesses fail, the economy shrinks, and Wall Street loses money. Many retailers earn a significant portion of their annual income during the 6-week holiday stretch from Thanksgiving to New Year's Day. It's no wonder, then, that businesses have tried to inch up Christmas earlier and earlier, to the point where you see garland and wreaths showing up in shopping malls right after Halloween. Our whole economic system is built, in part, on the commercialization of Christmas.
*
Follow the link for the entire article*


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## Zoom-boing (Dec 1, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> Poor Christians.  They lose heart and faith if everyone doesn't embrace and support their particular religious values.




Wrong again.  Can you imagine how boring this world would be if we all had the same religious values?  You are missing the point.  Christmas is first and foremost about Christ.  Sorry that the seculars don't like it or want it to be true but . . . it is.  All that Santa, presents, candy canes and such come second.  What Christians want to know is . . . why is it ok for the minority secular section to boot religion from Christmas but it's not ok for the majority Christian section to want it put back in?  What exactly is the secular's problem with this?  Really, are they afraid that religion will bonk them on the head?  Are they really offended if someone says Merry Christmas to them?  Are they really, truly that thinned-skinned?  

Watching TV last night I saw two Target commercials and one Victoria Secrets commercial (lol, yeah with all the boobage) and all three said Christmas (rather than holiday) in it.  Does the secular section find this offensive?  If so, why?


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## WillowTree (Dec 1, 2008)

I heard their presidente say he and michelle were going Christmas shopping..


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## Zoom-boing (Dec 1, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> archy
> 
> Wednesday, October 22, 2008
> *It's that time of year *
> ...




Would you be offended if a Nativity float was included in a Christmas parade?


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## Zoom-boing (Dec 1, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> I heard their presidente say he and michelle were going Christmas shopping..



Glad to hear it!  Maybe the 'C' word will become fashionable once again.


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## Shogun (Dec 1, 2008)

doubt it.. As if Obama's slow enough to let dogma junkies crucify him over something as trivial..  Anyone wanna bet what the Obama family Xmas Card says?


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## ABikerSailor (Dec 1, 2008)

Shogun said:


> doubt it.. As if Obama's slow enough to let dogma junkies crucify him over something as trivial..  Anyone wanna bet what the Obama family Xmas Card says?



I KNOW!!!!!!!

Obama dressed up in a Santa suit, standing on the roof of the White House, saying "Time for change motha fuckers", while holding a bottle of Ripple and a piece of fried chicken.

I mean shit......the conservatives have called him everything from the Anti-Christ to the Messiah.....why not Father Christmas?


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## YWN666 (Dec 1, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Would you be offended if a Nativity float was included in a Christmas parade?




Your question tells me you're not getting it. For the 1,000th time, it has nothing to do with being offended by Christmas.


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## random3434 (Dec 1, 2008)

Shogun said:


> doubt it.. As if Obama's slow enough to let dogma junkies crucify him over something as trivial..  Anyone wanna bet what the Obama family Xmas Card says?


_
Yes. It will say:_

*Happy Holidays! This is also a notice, we will be moving to a new home on Jan. 8th, please make a note of our new address:



The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
Washington, DC 20500 *


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## WillowTree (Dec 1, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> Your question tells me you're not getting it. For the 1,000th time, it has nothing to do with being offended by Christmas.





well goody goody gumdrops..



Merry Christmas!


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## Ravi (Dec 1, 2008)

Jesus called again. He asked me to tell the Christians here to quit being so un-Christian. The reason people are wished a Happy Holiday as opposed to a Merry Christmas is because the wisher doesn't always KNOW what holiday is celebrated by the recipient of the good wishes. And _the good wishes are what is important_, not some whiny-ass lament of insult that the Christians are crying about.

Next time you dopes pick a major holiday, don't plan it in December (which already has several major holidays) and avoid the clusterfuck of good wishes.


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## WillowTree (Dec 1, 2008)

Merry Christmas to ya!


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## WillowTree (Dec 1, 2008)

Ravi said:


> Jesus called again. He asked me to tell the Christians here to quit being so un-Christian. The reason people are wished a Happy Holiday as opposed to a Merry Christmas is because the wisher doesn't always KNOW what holiday is celebrated by the recipient of the good wishes. And _the good wishes are what is important_, not some whiny-ass lament of insult that the Christians are crying about.
> 
> Next time you dopes pick a major holiday, don't plan it in December (which already has several major holidays) and avoid the clusterfuck of good wishes.





see,, a clear fair minded person would see that the road runs both ways. If we should not be offended by Happy Holidays, then Merry Christmas should not offend you or anybody else..


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## Zoom-boing (Dec 1, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> see,, a clear fair minded person would see that the road runs both ways. If we should not be offended by Happy Holidays, then Merry Christmas should not offend you or anybody else..



But Willow that makes .  .  .  . sense.  Why would they get it?


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## ABikerSailor (Dec 1, 2008)

They can't get it dear.....they're too busy excluding everything else.

Cooperation works best.


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## Zoom-boing (Dec 1, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> Your question tells me you're not getting it. For the 1,000th time, it has nothing to do with being offended by Christmas.




Oh well then, so long as we're clear and all.


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## Zoom-boing (Dec 1, 2008)

ABikerSailor said:


> They can't get it dear.....they're too busy excluding everything else.
> 
> *Cooperation works best*.




    Absolutely!


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## Ravi (Dec 2, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> see,, a clear fair minded person would see that the road runs both ways. If we should not be offended by Happy Holidays, then Merry Christmas should not offend you or anybody else..


It doesn't offend anyone. I can see Jesus' point went right over your head, you poor pathetic thing.


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## editec (Dec 2, 2008)

We really need to write a new Christmas fairy tale for Republicans Christians who feel oppressed:

*The Imaginary Grinch Who Stole Merry Christmas and Replaced it with (gasp!) Happy Holidays*​


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## YWN666 (Dec 2, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> But Willow that makes .  .  .  . sense.  Why would they get it?



Hello???  Anyone in there??  I will repeat it yet again:

*It is not about being offended.*


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## YWN666 (Dec 2, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Oh well then, so long as we're clear and all.




I keep hearing that we're supposedly offended by Christmas and that was never the problem.  
In a situation where one person is greeting another and has no idea what religious belief the person has, what is the harm in using a generic Happy Holiday?  Do you expect that Merry Christmas should be used as a greeting for everyone of every religious belief?


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## YWN666 (Dec 2, 2008)

editec said:


> We really need to write a new Christmas fairy tale for Republicans Christians who feel oppressed:
> 
> *The Imaginary Grinch Who Stole Merry Christmas and Replaced it with (gasp!) Happy Holidays*​


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## Gunny (Dec 2, 2008)

I need to get that ostrich with his head in the sand avatar back on here.  It represents enough people here.


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## YWN666 (Dec 2, 2008)

Ravi said:


> Jesus called again. He asked me to tell the Christians here to quit being so un-Christian. The reason people are wished a Happy Holiday as opposed to a Merry Christmas is because the wisher doesn't always KNOW what holiday is celebrated by the recipient of the good wishes. And _the good wishes are what is important_, not some whiny-ass lament of insult that the Christians are crying about.



Wow, look at me agreeing with Ravi.


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## WillowTree (Dec 2, 2008)

Ravi said:


> It doesn't offend anyone. I can see Jesus' point went right over your head, you poor pathetic thing.





Well then Ravi Have a Very Very Merry Christmas.. your poor downtrodden, miguided, picked upon, misunderstood, excluded piece of protoplasam!


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## WillowTree (Dec 2, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> Hello???  Anyone in there??  I will repeat it yet again:
> 
> *It is not about being offended.*





Well then have a Very Merry Christmas!


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## rayboyusmc (Dec 2, 2008)

Funny how this used to be a big thing with O Reilly.  Now he says he is a secular guy..

It's all bullshit.  Smoke and mirrors.  Divide and conquer.

Wish whomever you want whatever you wish.  If they take offense,  tell they you're sorry they are an asshole but hope they have a happy holiday season anyway you sensitive bastard.


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## WillowTree (Dec 2, 2008)

rayboyusmc said:


> Funny how this used to be a big thing with O Reilly.  Now he says he is a secular guy..
> 
> It's all bullshit.  Smoke and mirrors.  Divide and conquer.
> 
> Wish whomever you want whatever you wish.  If they take offense,  tell they you're sorry they are an asshole but hope they have a happy holiday season anyway you sensitive bastard.





Now I know you are so full of shit... O'Reilly never says he is a secular guy.. He's a Catholic and very traditional.. jeez



Merry Christmas to you.!  so you say you're not offended but you call us assholes if we say Merry Christmas????    one just has to love libtards! yep


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## Ravi (Dec 2, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> Wow, look at me agreeing with Ravi.


Wait a minute, I'm the most rational poster here!

I'm beginning to think the real problem the people on this thread have is that they don't actually want anyone to enjoy their holidays, instead they only want to wear their Christianity on their sleeve. Selfishness was never a trait I was brought up to cultivate but these people seem to have it in spades.


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## WillowTree (Dec 2, 2008)

Ravi said:


> Wait a minute, I'm the most rational poster here!
> 
> I'm beginning to think the real problem the people on this thread have is that they don't actually want anyone to enjoy their holidays, instead they only want to wear their Christianity on their sleeve. Selfishness was never a trait I was brought up to cultivate but these people seem to have it in spades.





so you openly admit that Saying Merry Christmas so offends people that are not Christians that it spoils their entire Holiday?? wow, those are some very narrow minded people! I feel sad for them..


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## Ravi (Dec 2, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> so you openly admit that Saying Merry Christmas so offends people that are not Christians that it spoils their entire Holiday?? wow, those are some very narrow minded people! I feel sad for them..


That's not remotely what I said but I've no interest in helping you to see what a narrow minded hateful Christian you really are. That's between you and God.


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## WillowTree (Dec 2, 2008)

Ravi said:


> That's not remotely what I said but I've no interest in helping you to see what a narrow minded hateful Christian you really are. That's between you and God.






that's exactly what you said,,


*

I'm beginning to think the real problem the people on this thread have is that they don't actually want anyone to enjoy their holidays*


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## editec (Dec 2, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> Now I know you are so full of shit... O'Reilly never says he is a secular guy.. He's a Catholic and very traditional.. jeez


 
Yeah, actually he did. 

Saw it on TV, Willow.

No big deal really.

In the context of the subject at hand, declaring himself for secularism actually made sense.

Demanding absolute consistency in their opponents is something only stupid or dishonest people do.

They don't understand that in different issues, one can hold different positions, positions which, if the statements are perfectly parced out of the context in which statements are made, can make them look like assholes.

Now, OReilly IS an asshole...but not because in one discussion he chides secularim, and in another he declares himself FOR secularism.

That could, depending on circumstances, describe any of us, really.

The dishonesty technique is to strip the statements out of the context of the discussions in which they were made, and then to to make a case that they're hypocrites because in another dicussion one can parse out a statment which makes it appear like they're being inconsistent

It's a form intellectual dishonesty that many people fall for because it works so well, especially with some careful video editing.

It's still completely dishonest though.


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## WillowTree (Dec 2, 2008)

editec said:


> Yeah, actually he did.
> 
> Saw it on TV, Willow.
> 
> ...







can you find it? Because all I've ever heard from him is he is Catholic.. Have you read his new best seller? A Bold Fresh Piece Of Humanity?


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## Zoom-boing (Dec 2, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> I keep hearing that we're supposedly offended by Christmas and that was never the problem.



What exactly is the problem?



> In a situation where one person is greeting another and has no idea what religious belief the person has, what is the harm in using a generic Happy Holiday?  *Do you expect that Merry Christmas should be used as a greeting for everyone of every religious belief*?



NO -- have you NOT been paying any attention?  Obviously not. We do not want it to be exclusively 'Merry Christmas' because that excludes those who do not believe.  You, however, want it to _just be _'Happy Holidays' as you think this is being all inclusive.  IT ISN'T.  It excludes the majority who _do _believe and who want Merry Christmas.  Get it?  Use whatever term you wish but don't yap because we want to do the same. 

Let's try once again.  No one is saying 'it must be Merry Christmas or nothing'  NO ONE.  What we're saying is 'Merry Christmas should be included'.  Now, when your beloved door greeters at Wal-mart are doing their job I have no problem with them saying to me 'Happy Holidays'.  I return the sentiment with 'Merry Christmas to you too'.  What we object to is the complete removal of Christ/religion/Christmas in anything other than a church.  What is the problem you have with a Nativity display in a store?  What is the problem with calling this holiday what it is - - - Christmas?  What exactly is your complaint?  Are you this put-out if Hanukah or Kwanza is mentioned?

From reading some other threads you've posted in I understand your non-belief.  I also get that your idea of Christmas is Santa and presents and candy canes.  If this is true then to _you_ Christmas is alive and well.  It isn't the commerical aspect of Christmas that is being chipped away, it is the religious one.  Having Christ and any religious aspect of Christmas removed from anything public is where the war is being waged.   Having this religious aspect in public is not shoving religion or God down anyone's throat; if you do not believe then do not participate.  Embrace your holiday as you wish and let us do the same.


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## Zoom-boing (Dec 2, 2008)

Ravi said:


> Wait a minute, I'm the most rational poster here!
> 
> I'm beginning to think the real problem the people on this thread have is that they don't actually want anyone to enjoy their holidays, instead they only want to wear their Christianity on their sleeve. Selfishness was never a trait I was brought up to cultivate but these people seem to have it in spades.




Yet another one simply too bullheaded to actually comprehend what is being said.  You are all so stuck on the 'dogma junkie wearing Christianity on their sleeves' bs that you perpetuate, that you fail to see the point.  Please go back and _read_ the posts.


----------



## AllieBaba (Dec 2, 2008)

Cultural tolerance for all...except Christian Americans.

Libs are trying to turn anything remotely Christian into "hate speech" thereby effectively shutting down all Christian churches and communities.

What a bunch of loons.


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## AllieBaba (Dec 2, 2008)

Heaven forbid a Christian TELL anyone they're a Christian. It's supposed to be a secret! 

So if we're forbidden to refer to our religion publicly, does that mean we'll also make it illegal for Hindus to wear the dot on their forehead? How about Muslim headscarves...I find those offensive...do we rip them off those women because they're "wearing their faith on their sleeves"?

Buddhist monks! Yank off those robes! I find it offensive to be reminded of your Buddhism.

And nuns in habits? The HORROR!


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## AllieBaba (Dec 2, 2008)

Tell me, Ravi...should we make it illegal to wear cross pendants? Should crucifixes be outlawed?


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## WillowTree (Dec 2, 2008)

AllieBaba said:


> Cultural tolerance for all...except Christian Americans.
> 
> Libs are trying to turn anything remotely Christian into "hate speech" thereby effectively shutting down all Christian churches and communities.
> 
> What a bunch of loons.





Yep!


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 2, 2008)

AllieBaba said:


> *Cultural tolerance for all...except Christian Americans.*
> Libs are trying to turn anything remotely Christian into "hate speech" thereby effectively shutting down all Christian churches and communities.
> 
> What a bunch of loons.



Bingo!


----------



## Ravi (Dec 2, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Yet another one simply too bullheaded to actually comprehend what is being said.  You are all so stuck on the 'dogma junkie wearing Christianity on their sleeves' bs that you perpetuate, that you fail to see the point.  Please go back and _read_ the posts.


I doubt that. I celebrate Christmas. I wish people that I KNOW celebrate Christmas a Merry Christmas. I'm not sure about you, I can't tell what religion people are by looking at them. So when I am out in the world and it is the holiday season and I'm in a happy mood I like to wish the happiness of the season on others. I don't wish people a Merry Christmas if I don't know what they celebrate, I wish them Happy Holidays. Wishing them a Merry Christmas would be like wishing them a Happy Birthday when it wasn't their birthday.

The point of wishing people a Merry Christmas is to wish them happiness...the point is not to get in some stupid snit because you are personally affronted that people can't tell you are a Christian by looking at you. Jesus, IMNSHO, would be disgusted with your selfish assininity.

Maybe you should sew an emblem on your clothing so people know you are a Christian and can greet you without offending you.

You people are honestly the biggest assholes on the planet.


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## Ravi (Dec 2, 2008)

AllieBaba said:


> Tell me, Ravi...should we make it illegal to wear cross pendants? Should crucifixes be outlawed?


Not at all. It's too bad you're so stupid and pigheaded that you can't grasp the teachings of Jesus.


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## AllieBaba (Dec 2, 2008)

What does that have to do with your own idiocy?


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## Zoom-boing (Dec 2, 2008)

Ravi, seriously -- go back and read my posts.  We are in agreement here (well, except for the emblem bit. )  The fact that you continue to post what you're posting tells me you haven't read anything I've written.  You are all so stuck on the 'dogma junkie wearing Christianity on their sleeves' bs that you perpetuate (your emblem statement is a prime example of this), that you fail to see the point. Please go back and _read _the posts.


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## AllieBaba (Dec 2, 2008)

And I have yet to see one post of yours that shows you have any knowledge whatsoever of the teachings of Christ. Maybe you could enlighten me.
(That was for Ravi)


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## editec (Dec 2, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> can you find it? Because all I've ever heard from him is he is Catholic.. Have you read his new best seller? A Bold Fresh Piece Of Humanity?


 
I saw it on the Keith Oberman show, Willow.

In one clip he was chiding secularism, on another he was declaring himself a secularist.

Keith was making a big deal about it, of course.

But my point is, and reamins, that whenever somebody's words are taken out of the context in which they were first uttered, it's dishonest.

Like I say, I like Kieth and think Bill's a blowhard, but that technique is dishonest, anyway.

Both sides do it.

Idiots on both sides think it proves something.

The only thing it proves is that anyone can be shown to be a hypocrite if one employs this dishonest methodology of parcing out their words, to do so.


----------



## AllieBaba (Dec 2, 2008)

O'Reilly may have said he has secular leanings, but he's a Catholic and makes no bones about it.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 2, 2008)

editec said:


> I saw it on the Keith Oberman show, Willow.
> 
> In one clip he was chiding secularism, on another he was declaring himself a secularist.
> 
> ...




Do you have a link?  How can we know if Oberman wasn't doing an O'Reilly and just doing some fancy editing?  (Not doubting you, just wondering).


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 2, 2008)

Ravi said:


> Wait a minute, I'm the most rational poster here!
> 
> I'm beginning to think the real problem the people on this thread have is that they don't actually want anyone to enjoy their holidays, instead they only want to wear their Christianity on their sleeve. Selfishness was never a trait I was brought up to cultivate but these people seem to have it in spades.



They want everything done for the sole benefit of christians and if someone objects and asks them to share the spotlight, they start their childish temper tantrums in the form of this war on christmas horse shit.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 2, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> They want everything done for the sole benefit of christians and if someone objects and asks them to share the spotlight, they start their childish temper tantrums in the form of this war on christmas horse shit.




You and Ravi refuse to actually listen and read the posts here.  You enjoy the 'dogma junkie Christian' slant you spew.  Once again, try reading (slowly so you comprehend) the posts.  Geesh.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 2, 2008)

AllieBaba said:


> O'Reilly may have said he has secular leanings, but he's a Catholic and makes no bones about it.






yes, he just published an entire book on the subject.. What I think O'Reilly tries to do too often and fails, is to be "fair and balanced" when he tries to listen to seculars and see their point of view they mock him and demonize him.. he ought to just be who he is.. a traditional white, catholic irish guy. all 6'7 inches of him..


----------



## AllieBaba (Dec 2, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> They want everything done for the sole benefit of christians and if someone objects and asks them to share the spotlight, they start their childish temper tantrums in the form of this war on christmas horse shit.



Excuse me, idiot, I don't recall any Christian objecting to people saying "Happy Hannukkah" or "Happy Kwanza". I don't recall any Christians objecting to being forced to endure the sight of Muslim head scarves or Hindu dots because they can't handle other religions wearing it on their sleeves.

The discussion is about whether or not CHRISTIANS and Christians alone should be allowed to participate in CHRISTMAS by saying "Merry Christmas" because someone might find it "offensive". Even thought it's a CHRISTIAN holiday, we're not supposed to refer to it as such because Ravi and bigots like her think all Christians should be subjugated and the churches shut down.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 2, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> yes, he just published an entire book on the subject.. What I think O'Reilly tries to do too often and fails, is to be "fair and balanced" when he tries to listen to seculars and see their point of view they mock him and demonize him.. he ought to just be who he is.. a traditional white, catholic irish guy. all 6'7 inches of him..



I find it next to impossible to believe that O'Reilly is secular.  I'd like to see the clip.  

He's 6'7"?  I thought he was 6'4".   Can't tell with him behind the desk.  Dang tall (to me, lol) either way.


----------



## AllieBaba (Dec 2, 2008)

I think somebody is #1, taking his comment out of context, #2, probably misunderstood what the hell he was talking about or #3, is just outright lying.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 2, 2008)

AllieBaba said:


> Excuse me, idiot, I don't recall any Christian objecting to people saying "Happy Hannukkah" or "Happy Kwanza". I don't recall any Christians objecting to being forced to endure the sight of Muslim head scarves or Hindu dots because they can't handle other religions wearing it on their sleeves.
> 
> The discussion is about whether or not CHRISTIANS and Christians alone should be allowed to participate in CHRISTMAS by saying "Merry Christmas" because someone might find it "offensive". Even thought it's a CHRISTIAN holiday, we're not supposed to refer to it as such because Ravi and bigots like her think all Christians should be subjugated and the churches shut down.




Allie -- they refuse to actually read what is being written and what we are saying.  They immensely enjoy their 'dogma junkie' spin on things, as it gives them pleasure.  They don't want to hear what we have to say.  They are truly not interested.


----------



## AllieBaba (Dec 2, 2008)

I have a co-worker who is a liberal. She will spew the most ridiculous crap, and when I present her with facts which I can cite and date, she stares at me with a vapid expression and tells me I'm lying. I'm lying, because she is too stupid to look things up herself.


----------



## Ravi (Dec 2, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Allie -- they refuse to actually read what is being written and what we are saying.  They immensely enjoy their 'dogma junkie' spin on things, as it gives them pleasure.  They don't want to hear what we have to say.  They are truly not interested.


Just the fact that you take Allie's babblings as truth means you are the one that isn't interested in listening. Personally, between thinking that the bunch of you are morons and have no real idea of what Christianity means, I find this annual war on Christmas whine very amusing and I enjoy the fact that most people look upon Republicans that think they way you do as idiots.


----------



## AllieBaba (Dec 2, 2008)

Ravi, YOU'RE THE ONE who states that Christians shouldn't be allowed to say "Merry Christmas". You're the one perpetuating the war. Don't you recognize bigotry when you see it?


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 2, 2008)

Ravi said:


> Just the fact that you take Allie's babblings as truth means you are the one that isn't interested in listening. Personally, between thinking that the bunch of you are morons and have no real idea of what Christianity means, I find this annual war on Christmas whine very amusing and I enjoy the fact that most people look upon Republicans that think they way you do as idiots.



You done reading over my posts yet Ravi?  Didn't think so.


----------



## Ravi (Dec 2, 2008)

AllieBaba said:


> Ravi, YOU'RE THE ONE who states that Christians shouldn't be allowed to say "Merry Christmas". You're the one perpetuating the war. Don't you recognize bigotry when you see it?


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 2, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> They want everything done for the sole benefit of christians and if someone objects and asks them to share the spotlight, they start their childish temper tantrums in the form of this war on christmas horse shit.





haven't we said over and over and over that you may have yer holiday and we may have our christmas???? is there a problem with that..???


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 2, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> I find it next to impossible to believe that O'Reilly is secular.  I'd like to see the clip.
> 
> He's 6'7"?  I thought he was 6'4".   Can't tell with him behind the desk.  Dang tall (to me, lol) either way.






I would not hold my breath if I were you.. If he said it it's bound to be on you tube.. isn't it?? I'll look.  I thought he was 6'7 I'll look that up too..


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 2, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> haven't we said over and over and over that you may have yer holiday and we may have our christmas???? is there a problem with that..???




Willow, they can't hear you cause they have their fingers in their ears and are shouting 'nana nana foo foo'.


----------



## editec (Dec 2, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Do you have a link? How can we know if Oberman wasn't doing an O'Reilly and just doing some fancy editing? (Not doubting you, just wondering).


 
No I do not have a link.

I think the point I was making is that Oberman WAS doing an O'Reilly.

It didn't take any "fancy" editing, it merely took taking a few sentences out of context of a much longer discussion and then juxtaposing a sentence or two out of ANOITHER entirely different discussion he'd had about another subject entirely a fews months previously.

That IS the intellectually dishonest technique I was complaining about.

OReilly is a fucking jerk.

But that technique is_ still_ dishonest.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 2, 2008)

editec said:


> No I do not have a link.
> 
> I think the point I was making is that Oberman WAS doing an O'Reilly.
> 
> ...



They all do that if you ask me.  I take 'em all with a grain of salt.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 2, 2008)

[YOUTUBE]Sr8kOBz6x6Y&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]




for there to be no war on christmas there sure is a war on christmas.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 2, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> [YOUTUBE]Sr8kOBz6x6Y&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Nice find!


----------



## editec (Dec 2, 2008)

There's a war on Quanza, too but you don't hear Black people whining about it.


----------



## Shogun (Dec 2, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Nice find!



yea, and it's a good thing Joe is the kind of guy who wears christianity on his sleeve while having the power to cut off mics or you might have heard chris bring up a few points that never sits well with the usual fragile dogma junkies.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 2, 2008)

AllieBaba said:


> The discussion is about whether or not CHRISTIANS and Christians alone should be allowed to participate in CHRISTMAS by saying "Merry Christmas" because someone might find it "offensive". Even thought it's a CHRISTIAN holiday, we're not supposed to refer to it as such because Ravi and bigots like her think all Christians should be subjugated and the churches shut down.



So now _christians are not allowed to say Merry Christmas_?  This is rich!   Where exactly did this happen?  Who is stopping YOU from saying Merry Christmas???  That is the most asinine assertion I have seen on this thread but it is not surprising.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 2, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> haven't we said over and over and over that you may have yer holiday and we may have our christmas???? is there a problem with that..???



If that is the case then what is the problem?  Why are you whining about this "war on christmas"??


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 2, 2008)

Shogun said:


> yea, and it's a good thing Joe is the kind of guy who wears christianity on his sleeve while having the power to cut off mics or you might have heard chris bring up a few points that never sits well with the usual fragile dogma junkies.






chris never shut his rude mouth so the other guy could be heard..


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 2, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> If that is the case then what is the problem?  Why are you whining about this "war on christmas"??





show me where I whined??? alls I said was Merry Christmas..


----------



## ABikerSailor (Dec 2, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> show me where I whined??? alls I said was Merry Christmas..



You know, instead of making these ridiculous assertions, which do NOTHING other than divide us during a season of sharing and joy...........

You say "tomato", I say "tomatto".  Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays should BOTH be allowed.

For crying out loud, most of you are being pretty fucking selfish with this.  What about the person who the season is REALLY about?  You know......Yeshua.  Personally?  Even though it's a time to celebrate His birth, I really don't think that He would be offended by "Happy Holidays", because after all, there are lots of holidays this month, as well as they are supposed to be joyous.

WTF.......you've never heard of "Live and Let Live"?


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 2, 2008)

editec said:


> There's a war on Quanza, too but you don't hear Black people whining about it.



You mean Kwanzaa?  It's a non-religious holiday celebrated by blacks which celebrates family, community, and culture. It's celebrated December 26 - January 1.  What would the black people be whinning about exactly (if they were going to whine)?


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 2, 2008)

ABikerSailor said:


> You know, instead of making these ridiculous assertions, which do NOTHING other than divide us during a season of sharing and joy...........
> 
> You say "tomato", I say "tomatto".  Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays should BOTH be allowed.
> 
> ...





how many times do I have to tell you it's okay for you to say Happy Holidays and for me to say Merry Christmas!!! What is yer problem exactly???


----------



## ABikerSailor (Dec 2, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> how many times do I have to tell you it's okay for you to say Happy Holidays and for me to say Merry Christmas!!! What is yer problem exactly???



My problem is that too many people take extreme positions on this particular subject.

But......then again, what else could we expect with the current idiot that we have in the White House.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 2, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> So now _christians are not allowed to say Merry Christmas_?  This is rich!   Where exactly did this happen?  Who is stopping YOU from saying Merry Christmas???  That is the most asinine assertion I have seen on this thread but it is not surprising.



No the 'dogma junkie' crap is the most asinine assertion heard on this thread.  I should go count the number of times it's been used on this thread alone.  I'll bet money that someone will use it after reading this post.  

Since you ignored my previous post I thought I'd repost it here for you to read.  Nice dodge on my question btw.



> Originally Posted by YWN666
> I keep hearing that we're supposedly offended by Christmas and that was never the problem.



What exactly is the problem?



> In a situation where one person is greeting another and has no idea what religious belief the person has, what is the harm in using a generic Happy Holiday? Do you expect that Merry Christmas should be used as a greeting for everyone of every religious belief?


 
NO -- have you NOT been paying any attention? Obviously not. We do not want it to be exclusively 'Merry Christmas' because that excludes those who do not believe. You, however, want it to just be 'Happy Holidays' as you think this is being all inclusive. IT ISN'T. It excludes the majority who do believe and who want Merry Christmas. Get it? Use whatever term you wish but don't yap because we want to do the same. 

Let's try once again. No one is saying 'it must be Merry Christmas or nothing' NO ONE. What we're saying is 'Merry Christmas should be included'. Now, when your beloved door greeters at Wal-mart are doing their job I have no problem with them saying to me 'Happy Holidays'. I return the sentiment with 'Merry Christmas to you too'. What we object to is the complete removal of Christ/religion/Christmas in anything other than a church. What is the problem you have with a Nativity display in a store? What is the problem with calling this holiday what it is - - - Christmas? What exactly is your complaint? Are you this put-out if Hanukah or Kwanza is mentioned?

From reading some other threads you've posted in I understand your non-belief. I also get that your idea of Christmas is Santa and presents and candy canes. If this is true then to you Christmas is alive and well. It isn't the commerical aspect of Christmas that is being chipped away, it is the religious one. Having Christ and any religious aspect of Christmas removed from anything public is where the war is being waged. Having this religious aspect in public is not shoving religion or God down anyone's throat; if you do not believe then do not participate. Embrace your holiday as you wish and let us do the same.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 2, 2008)

ABikerSailor said:


> My problem is that too many people take extreme positions on this particular subject.
> 
> But......then again, what else could we expect with the current idiot that we have in the White House.






now thaaaaaaaaaaaaaat's really a stretch to blame yer war on Christmas on Boooosh,, war in Iraq yes but war on Christmas??? Not so much..


now I can't be any more agreeable or less extreme than to say either or is okay by me.. I personally like Merry Christmas..


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 2, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> What exactly is the problem?
> 
> 
> 
> NO -- have you NOT been paying any attention?  Obviously not. We do not want it to be exclusively 'Merry Christmas' because that excludes those who do not believe.  *You, however, want it to just be 'Happy Holidays' as you think this is being all inclusive.*



Bullshit. That is NOT my position and never has been.
I repeatedly said that greeters in stores were given the discretion to decide which greeting to use if they knew that a specific customer celebrated a certain holiday.  That's why I told someone here to announce that they celebrated christmas when they walked in the store so the greeter could avoid his temper tantrum by wishing him a Happy Holiday.
The Happy Holiday greeting was to be used only if the greeter did not know anything about the customer.  I NEVER said that Merry Christmas should not be allowed.  I said it shouldn't be the _only_ greeting used just to satisfy a few selfish christians.


----------



## ABikerSailor (Dec 2, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> now thaaaaaaaaaaaaaat's really a stretch to blame yer war on Christmas on Boooosh,, war in Iraq yes but war on Christmas??? Not so much..
> 
> 
> now I can't be any more agreeable or less extreme than to say either or is okay by me.. I personally like Merry Christmas..



Stretch?  Not really, or didn't you notice the climate of fear and terrorism that Bush used to get us into Iraq?  Plenty of fear all around, and some people figured out how to use that fear to get others to take extreme positions also.

Remember the campaign?


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 2, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> No one is saying 'it must be Merry Christmas or nothing' NO ONE.




I've seen quite a few people making that very assertion and that is my main complaint.


----------



## ABikerSailor (Dec 2, 2008)

One of those people YWN is Bill O'Reilly.  He's one of the dirtbags that takes an extreme position, and expects everyone else to jump too.


----------



## Ravi (Dec 2, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Try as they may the secular progressives will not win this war.
> 
> A Colbert Christmas: Toby Keith Sings | | ColbertNation.com
> 
> (Give the video a few minutes to load).


What war?


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 2, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> show me where I whined??? alls I said was Merry Christmas..



You said _"newp! we don't shop for Holiday's if they don't say Christmas they can stuff it!"_

That's whining.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 2, 2008)

ABikerSailor said:


> Stretch?  Not really, or didn't you notice the climate of fear and terrorism that Bush used to get us into Iraq?  Plenty of fear all around, and some people figured out how to use that fear to get others to take extreme positions also.
> 
> Remember the campaign?





alls I can say is you supersensitive types scare easily,, Bush never scared me, he musta scared those whoosie congresscritters though huh? and you think saying Merry Christmas is a position of fear!  call 1-800-HELP-ME


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 2, 2008)

ABikerSailor said:


> One of those people YWN is Bill O'Reilly.  He's one of the dirtbags that takes an extreme position, and expects everyone else to jump too.



Yep, although I think at least part of his motive is to get attention.  I don't think he really gives much of a shit about who says Christmas and who doesn't.  
By the way, O'Reilly was on Letterman last year and launched into his "war on christmas" tirade and Lettermen put him in his place to the cheers of the crowd.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 2, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> You said _"newp! we don't shop for Holiday's if they don't say Christmas they can stuff it!"_
> 
> That's whining.





hell no it ain't,,, it's called taking a stand.... what? you want me to join those idiots at Walmart? Now that's some serious Holiday shopping there pal..


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 2, 2008)

Ravi said:


> What war?






the freaking war we're not having for 301 posts,, DUmmie!


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 2, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> hell no it ain't,,, ..



No, of course you don't think so.  Then you might have to admit that you were wrong and you can't have that!


----------



## auditor0007 (Dec 2, 2008)

Shogun said:


> yea yea yea...  you are not the only belief system with a holiday during this time of year, dogma junkie.  We've already won; go ask Retail store greeters all about it.



Just thought I'd wish you a Merry Christmas Shogun.


----------



## Ravi (Dec 2, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> No, of course you don't think so.  Then you might have to admit that you were wrong and you can't have that!


Don't mind Willow. She won the poll we had as the whiniest poster at USMB. She's the Queen of Wah.

She just can't see it. Much like she can't see that Jesus thinks she's a selfish twit for not spreading joy to the non-Christians in the world.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 2, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> No, of course you don't think so.  Then you might have to admit that you were wrong and you can't have that!





I'm not wrong DUmmie,, how many times do I gots to tell ya it's okay fer you to say Happy Holiday and okay fer me to say Merry Christmas,,, what the heck is yer problem exactly?????


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 2, 2008)

Ravi said:


> Don't mind Willow. She won the poll we had as the whiniest poster at USMB. She's the Queen of Wah.
> 
> She just can't see it. Much like she can't see that Jesus thinks she's a selfish twit for not spreading joy to the non-Christians in the world.





I can see that I think it's okay fer you to do it yer way and okay for me to do it my way,, that makes you the unflexible whiny DUmmie!


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 2, 2008)

[YOUTUBE]JiSrGKj-564[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 2, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> I'm not wrong DUmmie,, how many times do I gots to tell ya it's okay fer you to say Happy Holiday and okay fer me to say Merry Christmas,,, what the heck is yer problem exactly?????




Yes, you _are_ wrong.  You asked someone to point out where you whined and I provided an example.  Now you're using a smokescreen to try to hide your hypocrisy.  Who do you think you're fooling anyway?


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 2, 2008)

Ravi said:


> Don't mind Willow. She won the poll we had as the whiniest poster at USMB. She's the Queen of Wah.



She deserved to win.  What a childish moron.


----------



## catzmeow (Dec 2, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Having this religious aspect in public is not shoving religion or God down anyone's throat; if you do not believe then do not participate. Embrace your holiday as you wish and let us do the same.



If you care about this so damn much, please rent a camel and a wise man costume and go act out the nativity on the lawn of your local church.

Just keep it off the courthouse/city hall lawn, and we'll get along fine.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 2, 2008)

Merry Merry Merry Christmas Everyone!!!


----------



## WhiteLion (Dec 2, 2008)

ABikerSailor said:


> I KNOW!!!!!!!
> 
> Obama dressed up in a Santa suit, standing on the roof of the White House, saying "Time for change motha fuckers", while holding a bottle of Ripple and a piece of fried chicken.
> 
> I mean shit......the conservatives have called him everything from the Anti-Christ to the Messiah.....why not Father Christmas?


 hell his  own groupy followers call him massiah?


----------



## jeffrockit (Dec 2, 2008)

Shogun said:


> Naw that would be the Muslims. Also, learn a few more buzz phrases as you have worn out that cute "Dogma Junkie" one.



I think I'll go ahead and keep using Dogma Junkie since i'm quite fond of the tone and it's inherent accuracy.

feel free to go fuck yourself, however, the next time you feel like doling out vocabulary advice!

[/QUOTE]

It never ceases to amaze me how brave people are on the internet. I can assure you that if you told me the same thing to my face...well I'm sure you would  not. Those of you that swear and show all this toughness on the net are true cowards. Mom and Dad's computer is their safe haven.
All this anger on a message board. What a waste of your life.


----------



## WhiteLion (Dec 2, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> If you care about this so damn much, please rent a camel and a wise man costume and go act out the nativity on the lawn of your local church.
> 
> Just keep it off the courthouse/city hall lawn, and we'll get along fine.


spoken like a true fanatic


----------



## AllieBaba (Dec 3, 2008)

Ravi said:


> Don't mind Willow. She won the poll we had as the whiniest poster at USMB. She's the Queen of Wah.
> 
> She just can't see it. Much like she can't see that Jesus thinks she's a selfish twit for not spreading joy to the non-Christians in the world.



Ravi speaks for Jesus. A new day has begun.


----------



## Sidestreamer (Dec 3, 2008)

I just want to know how many of the people willing to boycott businesses wishing "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" are the same ones bitching about gays shoving their sexuality down their Christian throats when they ask for the right to gay-marry.


----------



## editec (Dec 3, 2008)

Not a single person on this board attempting to create the lie that there is some kind of war on Christmas gives a rat's ass what greeters say to them.

This is a NON issue, just like so many issues the right wing nuts on this board bring up.

This is a variant on the Christians as VICTIMS myth that some right wingers want us to believe.

The right creates nonsensical issues like this because they desperate do NOT want to discuss real issues.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 3, 2008)

Youse guys are very verbose over a non issue! are you not?



Merry Merrry Christmas everyone!!


----------



## 007 (Dec 3, 2008)

So... I guess a nice, big, fat and happy MERRY CHRISTMAS is due in here aye?

Well MERRY CHRISTMAS, scrooges, turds, party poopers, angry people, bipolars, retards and anti religious zealots one and all...


----------



## midcan5 (Dec 3, 2008)

I have thought this often and think it still, that without a bogeyman the entire conservative movement would vanish. There is nothing to this so called war on Christmas but there are lots of conspiratorial signs and lots of soldiers ready to battle - but battle what? It seems a foe be they real or imaginary is required or nothing else exists. Think only of the devil and the uses that poor imaginary image has for so many?

ps merry Christmas and happy holidays and happy whatever it is you want to be happy about.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 3, 2008)

midcan5 said:


> I have thought this often and think it still, that without a bogeyman the entire conservative movement would vanish. There is nothing to this so called war on Christmas but there are lots of conspiratorial signs and lots of soldiers ready to battle - but battle what? It seems a foe be they real or imaginary is required or nothing else exists. Think only of the devil and the uses that poor imaginary image has for so many?



A common enemy unites them.  They manufacture some ridiculous cause and then select a scapegoat and that's all it takes to energize the gullible sheep into a frenzy.  Then they hold out their hands and collect money from the gullible sheep to fight this boogeyman and get rich in the process.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 3, 2008)

poor poor poor excludeds      








Merry Christmas Everyone! Merry Christmas!


----------



## Navy1960 (Dec 3, 2008)

It seems a rather simple concept thats if the words " MERRY CHRISTMAS" as  so bothersome to anyone as an individual then simply avoid those  places that display it. Further, there are just as many  so called vanilla holiday type locations for one to visit that would offer just as many options for someone that is turned off by the  Christian implications of the word. However for me, It goes something like this it is the sentiment that matters the most, if it Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, Happy  Honika, Happy Kwanzaa, or whatever if it comes from the heart of a person and has meaning really thats all that matters and if your heart is so hard that you cannot accept a greeting meant as a way of wishing you well and good, then my suggestion is to close your ears. and your eye's as your heart is already closed. As for the rest of you, have a Merry Christmas and may the blessings of the holidays fall on your family this season and the New Year.....


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 3, 2008)

Navy1960 said:


> It seems a rather simple concept thats if the words " MERRY CHRISTMAS" as  so bothersome to anyone as an individual then simply avoid those  places that display it.



That is not even the point.


----------



## rayboyusmc (Dec 3, 2008)

Get a life.

War, taxes, the economy, the bailout.

Merry Fucking Christmas and a Happy New Frigging Year


----------



## Navy1960 (Dec 3, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> That is not even the point.



YWN, I'm well aware of what the stated points of people are that have an issue with the words  Merry Christmas being displayed in public places as well as  what the implications of the words have to some.  My point is very simple, in this case this holiday is a Chistian Holiday that is celebrated the world over  and has been clebrated in this nation since it's inception. If the word's are so distastful to those that do not like them simply  find a location that does not display them.  I have heard all the arguments over this seperation of Church and State issue whatever you want to bring up over it, however I hardly see where  the words Merry Christmas on display or any of the other issues associated with this  come even close to the Govt. mandating a state sponsored  religion as defined by this. 

 Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, *or prohibiting the free exercise thereof*; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


In fact by limiting or prohibiting the displays of Merry Christmas one can argue that states and  locations  are not paying much attention to the constitution.   The bottom line here is this, if those words which are meant actually  to convey a peaceful and well meaning greeting to others is so offensive to some then I submit that they do have options and one of them is not to pay attention to them.


----------



## Againsheila (Dec 3, 2008)

editec said:


> Not a single person on this board attempting to create the lie that there is some kind of war on Christmas gives a rat's ass what greeters say to them.
> 
> This is a NON issue, just like so many issues the right wing nuts on this board bring up.
> 
> ...



In our state capital, we now have a "holiday" tree, a nativity and a sign that says "*Religion is but a myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds*."

Me, I'd rather do without Christmas at all than to have someone post a sign saying that I'm hard hearted and stupid for believing in God.

Not only is there a war on Christmas, there is a war on Christians.  Last year, for the first time ever, I sent out Christmas cards with a religious message in them.  I was so angry at those who are against our FEDERAL holiday.  This year I was going to go with a more secular card, but now, after this sign posted in our state capital, which, as far as I'm concerned is a hate crime, I'm going to put religious messages on this years Christmas cards too.  

I could handle as sign that says "There is no God", but to insult everyone of us who have a religion, that's hate, right there.  

When someone pushes me, I tend to push back.  I know it's not very Christian of me, but if I don't push back, pretty soon I won't be able to express my belief at all.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 3, 2008)

Againsheila said:


> In our state capital, we now have a "holiday" tree, a nativity and a sign that says "*Religion is but a myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds*."
> 
> Me, I'd rather do without Christmas at all than to have someone post a sign saying that I'm hard hearted and stupid for believing in God.
> 
> ...






You must be in Washington State! poor dear! I feel for ya! you live in the very heart of moonbathaven!


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 3, 2008)

Againsheila said:


> In our state capital, we now have a "holiday" tree, a nativity and a sign that says "*Religion is but a myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds*."
> 
> Me, I'd rather do without Christmas at all than to have someone post a sign saying that I'm hard hearted and stupid for believing in God.  * and if yer on this board you are also an idiot, a moron, and vewy vewy vewy selfish*
> 
> ...







Merry Christmas AgainS


----------



## Shogun (Dec 3, 2008)

im sure the dogma junkie xmas card revenge will land your holiday greeting strait into the garbage can.  Lord knows how that would be a hate crime though..


----------



## Againsheila (Dec 3, 2008)

Shogun said:


> im sure the dogma junkie xmas card revenge will land your holiday greeting strait into the garbage can.  Lord knows how that would be a hate crime though..



What, you think it's okay to put up a sign that calls every religious person in the world hard hearted and stupid????

*"Religion is but a myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds.*"

How can that not be a hate crime?


----------



## Shogun (Dec 3, 2008)

Againsheila said:


> What, you think it's okay to put up a sign that calls every religious person in the world hard hearted and stupid????
> 
> *"Religion is but a myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds.*"
> 
> How can that not be a hate crime?



it's not a hate crime because it's largely true.  dogma junkies do not fall on the side of science and they sure as fuck don't have a reputation for the kind of open armed consideration and acceptance that jebus was fond of mentioning.  Indeed, you people don't have a record, from moses to jesus to now, of soft hearts or free minds.  Need evidence?  Ask a door greeter at target about petty faith.  Ask a fag in Cali about superstitions that stager human rights.  passive aggressive retorts via xmas cards would result in probably the same kind of immediate solution as you'd come up with if you opened my xmas card as saw anton levay throwing goat horns at you in the name of solstice greetings.


just saying.


----------



## WhiteLion (Dec 3, 2008)

Againsheila said:


> In our state capital, we now have a "holiday" tree, a nativity and a sign that says "*Religion is but a myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds*."
> 
> Me, I'd rather do without Christmas at all than to have someone post a sign saying that I'm hard hearted and stupid for believing in God.
> 
> ...


Fact of the matter Againsheila, most people are ingnorant of the love of Christ and what he stands for in a true Christians life. Jesus the Christ came to abolish the bondage chains of religious dogma. Jesus the Christ is a way of life a personal relationship of HIS love and a standard of accountibility. Always remember Againsheila if there's nothing to your relationship with Jesus the Christ then why are they trying to dismantle and debunk it in every facet of American life, you know why?, because the required standard accountibility sears their rotten conscious, plain and simple "out of sight out of mind" hands down... The countless removels of 100 and 150 year old established Ten Commandments displays in public court houses all over the USA, not to mention uprooted Christian Crosses, Nativity scenes and Christmas trees... Never ever saleout,,, to give up what you believe is to saleout your soul, the best BIBLE, Christian example or idea of Christianity the world will ever see is the one they see in your life style.......

Oh and Merry Christmas


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 3, 2008)

WhiteLion said:


> Fact of the matter Againsheila, most people are ingnorant of the love of Christ and what he stands for in a true Christians life. Jesus the Christ came to abolish the bondage chains of religious dogma. Jesus the Christ is a way of life a personal relationship of HIS love and a standard of accountibility. Always remember Againsheila if there's nothing to your relationship with Jesus the Christ then why are they trying to dismantle and debunk it in every facet of American life, you know why?, because the required standard accountibility sears their rotten conscious, plain and simple "out of sight out of mind" hands down... The countless removels of 100 and 150 year old established Ten Commandments displays in public court houses all over the USA, not to mention uprooted Christian Crosses, Nativity scenes and Christmas trees... Never ever saleout,,, to give up what you believe is to saleout your soul, the best BIBLE, Christian example or idea of Christianity the world will ever see is the one they see in your life style.......
> 
> Oh and Merry Christmas


----------



## Shogun (Dec 3, 2008)

no one cares about your trite bullshit.  we are all well versed in the rhetoric.  we dont need door greeters to back up what your own testimony fails to do: convey some bullshit infatuation with a jewish ghost.  You people are like watching "it's a wonderful life" for the 30th time on xmas eve.  You'd call it a hate crime that someone might turn the channel looking for something more interesting and intellectually fulfilling.


----------



## editec (Dec 3, 2008)

> If the word's are so distastful to those that do not like them simply find a location that does not display them.


 


Where is this war please?  Where are the people who find a simply salutation distasteful?

Show me the war on Christmas, I have never seen any sign of it.

The only signs of a war on Christmas that I see, are the nitwits claiming that it exists.


----------



## WhiteLion (Dec 3, 2008)

Againsheila said:


> What, you think it's okay to put up a sign that calls every religious person in the world hard hearted and stupid????
> 
> *"Religion is but a myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds.*"
> 
> How can that not be a hate crime?


Againsheila as ive told many on these message boards ignore Shogun any fool can see this guy's obviously not shuffling with a full deck and blasphemous at best.


----------



## WhiteLion (Dec 3, 2008)

editec said:


> Where is this war please?  Where are the people who find a simply salutation distasteful?
> 
> Show me the war on Christmas, I have never seen any sign of it.
> 
> The only signs of a war on Christmas that I see, are the nitwits claiming that it exists.


The links below speak volumes for themselves in the war on the removal of the Ten Commandments, Christams Trees, Nativity scenes and just about every other Christian symbol thunkable???
Vandalism of Nativity Scene a disappointment
Posting the Ten Commandments in schools, etc: Year 2002
CNN.com - Ten Commandments monument moved - Nov. 14, 2003
Activist: 'Immediately remove' City Hall nativity scene | greenbaypressgazette.com | Green Bay Press-Gazette
Green Bay Councilman Asks Mayor to Remove Nativity Scene
Family ordered to remove nativity scene from yard
firstamendmentcenter.org: news
Extremist demands for removal of cross and demolition of Christian statutes in mission schools
ATHEISTS WIN SMALL VICTORY IN FIGHT TO REMOVE MT. DAVIDSON CHRISTIAN CROSS
http://www.theindychannel.com/news/2684548/detail.html

If this dont do it for ya, you may need to see professional help with a CAT scan


----------



## Shogun (Dec 3, 2008)

WhiteLion said:


> Againsheila as ive told many on these message boards ignore Shogun any fool can see this guy's obviously not shuffling with a full deck.



whatsa matter?  Did my allegory hit a little too close to home?  Facts are facts, dude.  don't cry on my shoulder because you can't escape the reality of your outmoded faith.


----------



## Ravi (Dec 3, 2008)

editec said:


> Where is this war please?  Where are the people who find a simply salutation distasteful?
> 
> Show me the war on Christmas, I have never seen any sign of it.
> 
> The only signs of a war on Christmas that I see, are the nitwits claiming that it exists.


I passed by Walmart the other day and I saw people writhing and moaning on the ground in front of the nativity scene. I just stepped over them and bravely shopped there anyway.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 3, 2008)

Navy1960 said:


> YWN, I'm well aware of what the stated points of people are that have an issue with the words  Merry Christmas being displayed in public places as well as  what the implications of the words have to some.  My point is very simple, in this case this holiday is a Chistian Holiday that is celebrated the world over  and has been clebrated in this nation since it's inception. If the word's are so distastful to those that do not like them simply  find a location that does not display them.




It appears that you _don't_ understand the points being made.  Again, it is NOT about christmas being considered distasteful.  We had been discussing the idea of retail stores using various greetings for their customers and now you're mixing in the idea of religious displays on government property.  They are 2 different issues.  Also, I will point out that there _are_ other religions that celebrate holidays in December.



> I have heard all the arguments over this seperation of Church and State issue whatever you want to bring up over it, however I hardly see where  the words Merry Christmas on display or any of the other issues associated with this  come even close to the Govt. mandating a state sponsored  religion as defined by this.
> 
> Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, *or prohibiting the free exercise thereof*; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.



Take it up with the Supreme Court.  They have interpreted the Constitution many times over to prohibit government fom endorsing religion.




> In fact by limiting or prohibiting the displays of Merry Christmas one can argue that states and  locations  are not paying much attention to the constitution.   The bottom line here is this, if those words which are meant actually  to convey a peaceful and well meaning greeting to others is so offensive to some then I submit that they do have options and one of them is not to pay attention to them.



Nonsense.  Religion does not belong in government and the Constitution demands that limitation.  If they prohibited you from celebrating christmas in your own home or in your church or even on a public street, you might have a point but that is just not happening.  Since citizens of many different religions (and no religion, too) make up this country, I don't see it as unfair at all to prevent one religion from having the upper hand at the expense of others.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 3, 2008)

WhiteLion said:


> Fact of the matter Againsheila, most people are ingnorant of the love of Christ and what he stands for in a true Christians life. Jesus the Christ came to abolish the bondage chains of religious dogma. Jesus the Christ is a way of life a personal relationship of HIS love and a standard of accountibility. Always remember Againsheila if there's nothing to your relationship with Jesus the Christ then why are they trying to dismantle and debunk it in every facet of American life, you know why?, because the required standard accountibility sears their rotten conscious, plain and simple "out of sight out of mind" hands down... The countless removels of 100 and 150 year old established Ten Commandments displays in public court houses all over the USA, not to mention uprooted Christian Crosses, Nativity scenes and Christmas trees... Never ever saleout,,, to give up what you believe is to saleout your soul, the best BIBLE, Christian example or idea of Christianity the world will ever see is the one they see in your life style.......



Oh, brother @@  You want us to feel sorry for you because you don't want to follow the rules everyone else has to follow?  No sympathy here.  No one is trying to dismantle christianity - that is a ridiculous comment to make.  If the courthouses that are used by you and other American citizens had displays of other non-christian religious holidays and prohibited christians displays, you'd be screaming bloody murder.  That is not happening but when the shoe is on the other foot and only christian displays are allowed, then that is OK with you?


----------



## Sidestreamer (Dec 3, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> Youse guys are very verbose over a non issue! are you not?
> 
> 
> 
> Merry Merrry Christmas everyone!!



Nah, we're just shocked at how much ado you can make over nothing, that's all.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 3, 2008)

poor little whiney assed excluded's  oh boo focking hoo's focking who?






Merrry Merrrry Christmas!


----------



## Shogun (Dec 3, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> poor little whiney assed excluded's  oh boo focking hoo's focking who?
> 
> Merrry Merrrry Christmas!




gosh, thats not at all ironic considering who predictably cries like chicken little at every winter solstice..


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 3, 2008)

Vermin Armada said:


> Nah, we're just shocked at how much ado you can make over nothing, that's all.






on post # 343,, and yer still whining about Christmas!! jeez.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 3, 2008)

WhiteLion said:


> The links below speak volumes for themselves in the war on the removal of the Ten Commandments, Christams Trees, Nativity scenes and just about every other Christian symbol thunkable???
> Vandalism of Nativity Scene a disappointment
> Posting the Ten Commandments in schools, etc: Year 2002
> CNN.com - Ten Commandments monument moved - Nov. 14, 2003
> ...



I followed quite a few of the links you posted and most of them are just complaints about the prohibition of government endorsed religion.  Get used to it unless you want to tear up the Constitution.

One of the others about a families nativity scene on their lawn sounds out of line from the headline but when you read the facts of the case, it is not out of line.  
This line says it all: 
"Michigan courts have said homeowners who join neighborhood or condominium associations must follow the rules set by the group."

The family put up their display without permission of the neighborhood association, a rule that everyone has to follow.  Now they're whining that they have to follow the rules.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 3, 2008)

[YOUTUBE]CUKk-atKy_I[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## editec (Dec 3, 2008)

Againsheila said:


> In our state capital, we now have a "holiday" tree, a nativity and a sign that says "*Religion is but a myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds*."


 
Is it on STATE property?

If not, so what?



> Me, I'd rather do without Christmas at all than to have someone post a sign saying that I'm hard hearted and stupid for believing in God.


 
Why do you care what idiots like that think?



> Not only is there a war on Christmas, there is a war on Christians.


 
Really?  I'm a Christian, and yet I haven't seen any action.  Wonder why?




> Last year, for the first time ever, I sent out Christmas cards with a religious message in them. I was so angry at those who are against our FEDERAL holiday. This year I was going to go with a more secular card, but now, after this sign posted in our state capital, which, as far as I'm concerned is a hate crime, I'm going to put religious messages on this years Christmas cards too.


 
Okay.  That's keepin it real. _Go for it._



> I could handle as sign that says "There is no God", but to insult everyone of us who have a religion, that's hate, right there.


 
Yes, I agree.  It is boneheaded stupid and pointlessly rude sign.  Is it on public property?    If so, then by all means have it removed.  I would if such a thing happened in my town.



> When someone pushes me, I tend to push back. I know it's not very Christian of me, but if I don't push back, pretty soon I won't be able to express my belief at all.


 
Oh I don't blame you one bit.  I don't think I've ever turned the other cheek in my life.  I am not a good Christian. 



> I know it's not very Christian of me, but if I don't push back, pretty soon I won't be able to express my belief at all.


 
You think?  How is anyone going to stop you from expressing your beliefs, exactly, Again?

Can you give me an example of what you fear will happen if you don't push back?

And push back against WHAT exactly?

See?  This is why I am dubious that there is a war on Christmas.

Where is this war?


----------



## Steerpike (Dec 3, 2008)

editec said:


> Yes, I agree.  It is boneheaded stupid and pointlessly rude sign.  Is it on public property?    If so, then by all means have it removed.  I would if such a thing happened in my town.



Actually...if it is on public property that is open for putting religious, political, or other messages, then you shouldn't be able to take it down.  The State can't regulate such messages based solely on their content (with certain exceptions like obscenity) and shouldn't be able to regulate even as much as they do.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 3, 2008)

Quote:
I know it's not very Christian of me, but if I don't push back, pretty soon I won't be able to express my belief at all.  




editec said:


> You think?  How is anyone going to stop you from expressing your beliefs, exactly, Again?
> 
> Can you give me an example of what you fear will happen if you don't push back?
> 
> ...



Sheila is again using the slippery slope argument.  It's all nonsense.  NO ONE is attempting to make her stop practicing her religion.  In fact many groups like the ACLU and PFAW are fighting the rights of everyone, including christians, to practice their religion.

I often see that kind of argument in response to an action where religion in government is prohibited.  It is apples and oranges and they know it.

What is ridiculous about their argument is that we have a religion that is the majority religion in the US (many of them falsely claiming that the majority should dictate constitutional rights) and yet they are trying to portray themselves as the poor persecuted victims whose rights are being violated.  The majority being persecuted?  Does that make _any_ sense?


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 3, 2008)

Steerpike said:


> Actually...if it is on public property that is open for putting religious, political, or other messages, then you shouldn't be able to take it down.  The State can't regulate such messages based solely on their content (with certain exceptions like obscenity) and shouldn't be able to regulate even as much as they do.




You make a good point.  If the government does allow all religions to put up their displays on government property (the only exception to allowing such displays on government property) then they have no say in the content.  That is one of the dangers of allowing them all.  I think there's be more than a few complaints if the Ayatollah Whatever put up a religious display that said "death to infidels".


----------



## Steerpike (Dec 3, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> You make a good point.  If the government does allow all religions to put up their displays on government property (the only exception to allowing such displays on government property) then they have no say in the content.  That is one of the dangers of allowing them all.  I think there's be more than a few complaints if the Ayatollah Whatever put up a religious display that said "death to infidels".



The question is: if the allow one can they Constitutionally not allow them all without discriminating based on content?


----------



## Shogun (Dec 3, 2008)

I guess we'll find out when christians start crying about crescent moons and stars sharing as much space on the courthouse lawn as the nativity set.


----------



## Navy1960 (Dec 3, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> It appears that you _don't_ understand the points being made.  Again, it is NOT about christmas being considered distasteful.  We had been discussing the idea of retail stores using various greetings for their customers and now you're mixing in the idea of religious displays on government property.  They are 2 different issues.  Also, I will point out that there _are_ other religions that celebrate holidays in December.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ywn because I choose to make a point as to the merits of the usage of  the words  Merry Christmas, does not mean I do not understand what YOU and others happen to be discussing. As a matter of fact my original post did not directly address anyone and was expressing an opinion much as yours does with the your interpretation of my opinion on the constitutional merits of the holiday. I suggest that if the holiday bothers you so much then petition your Gov. office to have it removed  on the grounds that it celebrates a  religion  on who's principles this nation was founded upon.  I've always found  it interesting that people  who demand  Freedoms  louder than others  are very willing to deny them quickly if it does not fit in the molds they happen to believe in.  As for your Supreme Court cases on  Church and State , your correct there are many examples of them, however as my earlier post indicated  simply posting a Merry Christmas  sign can be seen as  prohibiting the free exercise thereof.  If someone believes that by posting a Merry Christmas sign that the local Govt. is somehow  passing a state sponsored religion then they must also believe that when a Govt. puts a coke machine in the lobby of the  local city hall they are somehow forcing citizens to drink coke. Both are equally as crazy and all it takes is an individual to make the choice. So while I appreciate your  opinion, they are  your opinions  and like mine  while different it has nothing at all to do with my not understanding your previous conversation.


----------



## WhiteLion (Dec 3, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> I followed quite a few of the links you posted and most of them are just complaints about the prohibition of government endorsed religion.  Get used to it unless you want to tear up the Constitution.
> 
> One of the others about a families nativity scene on their lawn sounds out of line from the headline but when you read the facts of the case, it is not out of line.
> This line says it all:
> ...


Typical self interpretation, of selective links, comon do better than that


----------



## WhiteLion (Dec 3, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> Oh, brother @@  You want us to feel sorry for you because you don't want to follow the rules everyone else has to follow?  No sympathy here.  No one is trying to dismantle christianity - that is a ridiculous comment to make.  If the courthouses that are used by you and other American citizens had displays of other non-christian religious holidays and prohibited christians displays, you'd be screaming bloody murder.  That is not happening but when the shoe is on the other foot and only christian displays are allowed, then that is OK with you?


Your a bonafide idiot as i expected and you think i seek your pitty lmao boy your barking up the wrong tree


----------



## WhiteLion (Dec 3, 2008)

Navy1960 said:


> Ywn because I choose to make a point as to the merits of the usage of  the words  Merry Christmas, does not mean I do not understand what YOU and others happen to be discussing. As a matter of fact my original post did not directly address anyone and was expressing an opinion much as yours does with the your interpretation of my opinion on the constitutional merits of the holiday. I suggest that if the holiday bothers you so much then petition your Gov. office to have it removed  on the grounds that it celebrates a  religion  on who's principles this nation was founded upon.  I've always found  it interesting that people  who demand  Freedoms  louder than others  are very willing to deny them quickly if it does not fit in the molds they happen to believe in.  As for your Supreme Court cases on  Church and State , your correct there are many examples of them, however as my earlier post indicated  simply posting a Merry Christmas  sign can be seen as  prohibiting the free exercise thereof.  If someone believes that by posting a Merry Christmas sign that the local Govt. is somehow  passing a state sponsored religion then they must also believe that when a Govt. puts a coke machine in the lobby of the  local city hall they are somehow forcing citizens to drink coke. Both are equally as crazy and all it takes is an individual to make the choice. So while I appreciate your  opinion, they are  your opinions  and like mine  while different it has nothing at all to do with my not understanding your previous conversation.


EXCELLENT


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 3, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> Bullshit. That is NOT my position and never has been.
> I repeatedly said that greeters in stores were given the discretion to decide which greeting to use if they knew that a specific customer celebrated a certain holiday.  That's why I told someone here to announce that they celebrated christmas when they walked in the store so the greeter could avoid his temper tantrum by wishing him a Happy Holiday.
> The Happy Holiday greeting was to be used only if the greeter did not know anything about the customer.  I NEVER said that Merry Christmas should not be allowed.  *I said it shouldn't be the only greeting used just to satisfy a few selfish christians*.



By George I think she's got it . . . . 

Not just Merry Christmas, not just Happy Holidays -- use 'em both.  (pssst, you wanna throw in a Nativity display at Wal-mart while you're at it? )


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 3, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> That is not even the point.



Yawn, the more you post the less of a point you make.  zzzzzzzzzzz


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 3, 2008)

Shogun said:


> im sure the dogma junkie xmas card revenge will land your holiday greeting strait into the garbage can.  Lord knows how that would be a hate crime though..




Ding, ding, ding.  We have a winner in the 'dogma junkie' post.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 3, 2008)

Shogun said:


> it's not a hate crime because it's largely true.  dogma junkies do not fall on the side of science and they sure as fuck don't have a reputation for the kind of open armed consideration and acceptance that jebus was fond of mentioning.  Indeed, you people don't have a record, from moses to jesus to now, of soft hearts or free minds.  Need evidence?  Ask a door greeter at target about petty faith.  Ask a fag in Cali about superstitions that stager human rights.  passive aggressive retorts via xmas cards would result in probably the same kind of immediate solution as you'd come up with if you opened my xmas card as saw anton levay throwing goat horns at you in the name of solstice greetings.
> 
> 
> just saying.



Hey Shoe -- you lied.  You said there were greeters at Wal-mart.  I went there today and much to my disappointment, no one greeted me at the door.   But, the cashier did wish me a Merry Christmas.  Twice!  

You're lying about Target too, they don't have door greeters either.  

So the $64,000 question is . . . what stores actually hire people to greet customers at the door and wish them Merry/Happy/Seasons anything?


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 4, 2008)

Steerpike said:


> The question is: if the allow one can they Constitutionally not allow them all without discriminating based on content?



No they can't and that's the problem.  With the thousands of different religions allowing every religion to put up a display would be impractical.  There would be no room left on the Town Hall lawn.  You'd also probably have disagreements on which display got he best location on the Town Hall lawn.

The best and fairest solution is to not allow any displays.  There is ample opportunity for people to have their own displays on private property so there is no need for a government display (unless someone is trying to force their religion on others).

You might remember Ex-Judge Roy Moore with his 10 commandments monument on courthouse grounds.  When he was told to remove it, someone suggested that he put monuments to other religions next to his to make it legal and he refused saying that the 10 commandments were the only rules to live by and christianity was the only true religion.  What a moron.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 4, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Hey Shoe -- you lied.  You said there were greeters at Wal-mart.  I went there today and much to my disappointment, no one greeted me at the door.   But, the cashier did wish me a Merry Christmas.  Twice!
> 
> You're lying about Target too, they don't have door greeters either.
> 
> So the $64,000 question is . . . what stores actually hire people to greet customers at the door and wish them Merry/Happy/Seasons anything?



The man who was trampled to death at WalMart was a greeter


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 4, 2008)

Navy1960 said:


> Ywn because I choose to make a point as to the merits of the usage of  the words  Merry Christmas, does not mean I do not understand what YOU and others happen to be discussing. As a matter of fact my original post did not directly address anyone and was expressing an opinion much as yours does with the your interpretation of my opinion on the constitutional merits of the holiday. I suggest that if the holiday bothers you so much then petition your Gov. office to have it removed  on the grounds that it celebrates a  religion  on who's principles this nation was founded upon.



That matter has already been decided by the Supreme Court and my comments agree with their decisions and again, your assertion that the holiday bothers me shows that you do _not_ understand what I have been saying.



> I've always found  it interesting that people  who demand  Freedoms  louder than others  are very willing to deny them quickly if it does not fit in the molds they happen to believe in.



Whose freedom am I denying and exactly how am I doing that?  Your assertion is nonsense.



> As for your Supreme Court cases on  Church and State , your correct there are many examples of them, however as my earlier post indicated  simply posting a Merry Christmas  sign can be seen as  prohibiting the free exercise thereof.



Posting a Merry Christmas sign is *prohibiting* free exercise???



> If someone believes that by posting a Merry Christmas sign that the local Govt. is somehow  passing a state sponsored religion then they must also believe that when a Govt. puts a coke machine in the lobby of the  local city hall they are somehow forcing citizens to drink coke.



Apples and oranges.  Coke is not a religion so your silly argument fails.



> Both are equally as crazy and all it takes is an individual to make the choice. So while I appreciate your  opinion, they are  your opinions  and like mine  while different it has nothing at all to do with my not understanding your previous conversation.



Your opinions are wrong when it comes to the Constitution.  The government has been forbidden from endorsing any religion by the Sup Ct and that idea has been reinforced in dozens of decision by the Court.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 4, 2008)

WhiteLion said:


> Typical self interpretation, of selective links, comon do better than that



Will I be wasting my time with you if I refute each one individually?

The majority of the links dealt with religious displays on government property, so those arguments are false right off the bat.  The rest I can read through but I won't waste my time if you will just deny all of my explanations.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 4, 2008)

WhiteLion said:


> Your a bonafide idiot as i expected and you think i seek your pitty lmao boy your barking up the wrong tree



Is there some reason you're not addressing the points I made?  You chastise me for not refuting every one of the links you posted and now you're ignoring the points I made by calling me an idiot and running.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 4, 2008)

Originally Posted by YWN666 View Post
Bullshit. That is NOT my position and never has been.
I repeatedly said that greeters in stores were given the discretion to decide which greeting to use if they knew that a specific customer celebrated a certain holiday. That's why I told someone here to announce that they celebrated christmas when they walked in the store so the greeter could avoid his temper tantrum by wishing him a Happy Holiday.
The Happy Holiday greeting was to be used only if the greeter did not know anything about the customer. I NEVER said that Merry Christmas should not be allowed. I said it shouldn't be the only greeting used just to satisfy a few selfish christians.



Zoom-boing said:


> By George I think she's got it . . . .



That has been my position since the very beginning, Bub.  Where have you been?


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 4, 2008)

Well I see the excludeds are still whining about Christmas.. Poor poor excludeds.. 






Merry Merry Merry Christmas!


----------



## Steerpike (Dec 4, 2008)

Personally, I couldn't possibly care less what greeting stores use, and anyone who does seems to me to exhibit a good deal of insecurity in one direction or another (religious belief v. lack of it).


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 4, 2008)

I don't do stores, so I know you are not speaking to me..


----------



## bk1983 (Dec 4, 2008)

Who knew that a supposed holiday to celebrate Jesus's birthday using Pagan rituals would be so controversial?


----------



## editec (Dec 4, 2008)

WhiteLion said:


> The links below speak volumes for themselves in the war on the removal of the Ten Commandments, Christams Trees, Nativity scenes and just about every other Christian symbol thunkable???
> Vandalism of Nativity Scene a disappointment
> Posting the Ten Commandments in schools, etc: Year 2002
> CNN.com - Ten Commandments monument moved - Nov. 14, 2003
> ...


 


In other words, if I object to you shoving you religion down my throat on PUBLIC PROPERTY, I have declared war on your religion holiday?

Is that your complaint?


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 4, 2008)

editec said:


> In other words, if I* object to you shoving you religion down my throat on PUBLIC PROPERTY,* I have declared war on your religion holiday?
> 
> Is that your complaint?







*shoving down throat* boy what a drama queen. 



a manager, a christmas tree, a yuletide carol,,===shoving down throat,, jeez there's lots to be upset about but,, Christmas??? wow,,


----------



## catzmeow (Dec 4, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> *shoving down throat* boy what a drama queen.
> 
> a manager, a christmas tree, a yuletide carol,,===shoving down throat,, jeez there's lots to be upset about but,, Christmas??? wow,,



There is a church on every corner in my town.  That isn't sufficient property for you to erect a manger on?


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 4, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> There is a church on every corner in my town.  That isn't sufficient property for you to erect a manger on?






what's yer point??? long as they allow you your message what's the harm? look,, or don't look,, it's just that simple.


----------



## catzmeow (Dec 4, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> what's yer point??? long as they allow you your message what's the harm? look,, or don't look,, it's just that simple.



Is your faith so puny that you need the secular state to prop it up?  Or, can it exist singularly in your heart, without such impositions on other people?

I guess I missed the part in Matthew 5 where Jesus says, "And make sure you post the ten commandments in every courtroom and a manger at every city hall."

I'd like you to explain to me why you NEED those things in those locations.  Your post makes it sound like it's really no big deal, so why the furor? I'm quite certain that in every small town in America, there is a church within a block of city hall with a front lawn wide enough for a manger....So, why the indignation over moving the manger there?


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 4, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> Is your faith so puny that you need the secular state to prop it up?  Or, can it exist singularly in your heart, without such impositions on other people?
> 
> I guess I missed the part in Matthew 5 where Jesus says, "And make sure you post the ten commandments in every courtroom and a manger at every city hall."
> 
> I'd like you to explain to me why you NEED those things in those locations.  Your post makes it sound like it's really no big deal, so why the furor? I'm quite certain that in every small town in America, there is a church within a block of city hall with a front lawn wide enough for a manger....So, why the indignation over moving the manger there?





give me something besides yer talking points. and Merry Merry Christmas..


----------



## catzmeow (Dec 4, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> give me something besides yer talking points. and Merry Merry Christmas..



Legitimate questions.  Why do you feel a need to have your religious displays on public, versus church, property?


----------



## Againsheila (Dec 4, 2008)

Steerpike said:


> Personally, I couldn't possibly care less what greeting stores use, and anyone who does seems to me to exhibit a good deal of insecurity in one direction or another (religious belief v. lack of it).



I think it's a bit hypocritical of stores to sell Christmas decorations, Christmas trees, push the idea of purchasing Christmas presents and all the while substituted the word "holiday" for Christmas.


----------



## catzmeow (Dec 4, 2008)

Againsheila said:


> I think it's a bit hypocritical of stores to sell Christmas decorations, Christmas trees, push the idea of purchasing Christmas presents and all the while substituted the word "holiday" for Christmas.




The christmas decorations of which you speak:

Christmas trees
Mistletoe
Christmas lights
Christmas presents
Holly 

These are all traditions from YULE, not the Christ Mass.



> Yule is a winter festival identified with Christmas in modern times.[1] The pagan Germanic peoples celebrated Yule from late December to early January on a date determined by the lunar Germanic calendar.[2] When the Julian calendar was adopted in northern Europe, Yule was placed on December 25 to correspond with the date of Christmas, but was originally on December 21.[3]
> 
> The word "Yule" come from the same root as the word "jolly." Modern Yule traditions include decorating a fir or spruce tree, burning a Yule log, hanging mistletoe and holly branches, giving gifts, and general celebration and merriment.
> 
> ...



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 4, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> Legitimate questions.  Why do you feel a need to have your religious displays on public, versus church, property?



  need????


----------



## catzmeow (Dec 4, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> need????



I can hear the plaintive tones in your voice.  let's be clear here.

NO ONE is proposing that churches be denied the right to put up whatever display they wish on their private property.  The "impositions" you have described are all assertions of a specific creed on shared public property.   And, that seems to be an imposition on others, in that context.

So, the "war" on christmas isn't really a war at all, just a clarification of WHERE Christmas celebrations belong, and where they don't.

To pretend otherwise is disingenuous.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 4, 2008)

Againsheila said:


> I think it's a bit hypocritical of stores to sell Christmas decorations, Christmas trees, push the idea of purchasing Christmas presents and all the while substituted the word "holiday" for Christmas.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 4, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> I can hear the plaintive tones in your voice.







 and I can see yer alligator tears..


----------



## Againsheila (Dec 4, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> The christmas decorations of which you speak:
> 
> Christmas trees
> Mistletoe
> ...



You forgot the nativity set.


----------



## Againsheila (Dec 4, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> I can hear the plaintive tones in your voice.  let's be clear here.
> 
> NO ONE is proposing that churches be denied the right to put up whatever display they wish on their private property.  The "impositions" you have described are all assertions of a specific creed on shared public property.   And, that seems to be an imposition on others, in that context.
> 
> ...



For many years, Christmas has been celebrated nationwide.  Along with that, at Christmas time, the fire department and many other organizations collect and provide food and presents to the poor.  This is done specifically at Christmas and it's done by people who work in the public.  To call the tree a holiday tree instead of a Christmas tree because it might offend someone makes no sense at all.  If you are offended, don't accept any of the food or gifts.  

Christmas is a national holiday, it belongs nationwide.  You don't like it, have it removed from our holidays.


----------



## Steerpike (Dec 4, 2008)

Againsheila said:


> I think it's a bit hypocritical of stores to sell Christmas decorations, Christmas trees, push the idea of purchasing Christmas presents and all the while substituted the word "holiday" for Christmas.



Why? These same stores sell Kwanza cards, and cards for all kinds of 'holidays.'  If your argument were reasonable, then it would also be hypocritical of them not to greet everyone with a specific reference to every holiday for which they sell any products, or to refer to every holiday when they refer to any.  Rather than do that, it makes sense to refer to 'holidays' generally.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 4, 2008)

Againsheila said:


> For many years, Christmas has been celebrated nationwide.  Along with that, at Christmas time, the fire department and many other organizations collect and provide food and presents to the poor.  This is done specifically at Christmas and it's done by people who work in the public.  To call the tree a holiday tree instead of a Christmas tree because it might offend someone makes no sense at all.  If you are offended, don't accept any of the food or gifts.
> 
> Christmas is a national holiday, it belongs nationwide.  You don't like it, have it removed from our holidays.





Christmas is a Federal Holiday in a predominately Christian nation. That's the fact that is driving atheists nuts! And that's why they wage a war on Christmas.. and that's why they piss down yer back and try to make you believe it rain!  but,,,, they ain't foolin nobody!


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 4, 2008)

Steerpike said:


> Why? These same stores sell Kwanza cards, and cards for all kinds of 'holidays.'  If your argument were reasonable, then it would also be hypocritical of them not to greet everyone with a specific reference to every holiday for which they sell any products, or to refer to every holiday when they refer to any.  Rather than do that, it makes sense to refer to 'holidays' generally.





I can't wait for them to start selling atheist greeting cards,, that will be cool! wonder why they don't?? hey! there's a business idea.. for somebody..


----------



## catzmeow (Dec 4, 2008)

Againsheila said:


> To call the tree a holiday tree instead of a Christmas tree because it might offend someone makes no sense at all.  If you are offended, don't accept any of the food or gifts.



Technically speaking, it's a *YULE* tree.  The fact that Christians co-opted it, notwithstanding.  So, perhaps we should call it what it is, and avoid these kinds of nasty understandings.  

And, your little manger scenes?  They are mithraic in origin.


----------



## Ravi (Dec 4, 2008)

Stop! I'm beginning to think the entire Christian religion is made up of myths and lies!


----------



## catzmeow (Dec 4, 2008)

Ravi said:


> Stop! I'm beginning to think the entire Christian religion is made up of myths and lies!


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 4, 2008)

catzmeow said:


>





see? that's yer myth,, it is for everybody,, we just like to call it Christmas.. would you like me to wish you merry atheiest?? I will.. merry christmas and merry atheist too..


----------



## editec (Dec 4, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> give me something besides yer talking points. and Merry Merry Christmas..


 
Translation:  _*I got nothin'*_


----------



## editec (Dec 4, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> I can hear the plaintive tones in your voice. let's be clear here.
> 
> NO ONE is proposing that churches be denied the right to put up whatever display they wish on their private property. The "impositions" you have described are all assertions of a specific creed on shared public property. And, that seems to be an imposition on others, in that context.
> 
> ...




_Praise Jesus!_ you got it _EXACTLY_


----------



## editec (Dec 4, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> Christmas is a Federal Holiday in a predominately Christian nation. That's the fact that is driving atheists nuts!


 
Is it?  Speaking as Christian, they seem pretty sane to me.  





> And that's why they wage a war on Christmas.. and that's why they piss down yer back and try to make you believe it rain! but,,,, they ain't foolin nobody!


 
Yeah, right.

Like you are.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 4, 2008)

editec said:


> Is it?  Speaking as Christian, they seem pretty sane to me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...






like I are what?


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 4, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> The man who was trampled to death at WalMart was a greeter




Nice try, but wrong again YAWN.

"A Wal-Mart spokesman, Dan Folgleman, called it a tragic situation, and said the victim had been hired from a temporary staffing agency and assigned to maintenance work. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/29/business/29walmart.html


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 4, 2008)

"Christmas (IPA: /kr&#618;sm&#601;s/), also referred to as Christmas Day or Christmastide, is an annual holiday celebrated on December 25 that marks and honors the birth of Jesus of Nazareth.[2][3][4] His birth, which is the basis for the anno Domini system of dating, has been determined by modern historians as having occurred between 7 and 2 BC. The date of celebration is not thought to be Jesus' actual date of birth. It may have been chosen to coincide with the winter solstice,[5] which the ancient Romans celebrated on December 25.[6]

Modern customs of the holiday include gift-giving, church celebrations, and the display of various decorations&#8212;including the Christmas tree, lights, mistletoe, nativity scenes and holly. Santa Claus (also referred to as Father Christmas, although the two figures have different origins) is a popular mythological figure often associated with bringing gifts at Christmas. Santa is generally believed to be the result of a syncretization between St. Nicholas of Myra and elements from pagan Nordic and Christian mythology, and his modern appearance is believed to have originated in 19th century media.

Christmas is celebrated throughout the Christian population, but is also celebrated by many non-Christians as a secular, cultural festival. The holiday is widely celebrated around the world, including in the United States, where it is celebrated by 96% of the population.[7] Some Orthodox groups celebrate Christmas on or near January 7, as January 7 corresponds to December 25 using the Julian calendar.[8] Because gift-giving and several other aspects of the holiday involve heightened economic activity among both Christians and non-Christians, Christmas has become a major event for many retailers."

Christmas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 4, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> There is a church on every corner in my town.  That isn't sufficient property for you to erect a manger on?



No, they won't rest until they can expose everyone to the allegedly only true religion.  Putting an Xmas tree in their living room may make them happy but it doesn't expose us heathens to their magic solution to everyone's problems.


----------



## catzmeow (Dec 4, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> "Christmas (IPA: /kr&#618;sm&#601;s/), also referred to as Christmas Day or Christmastide, is an annual holiday celebrated on December 25 that marks and honors the birth of Jesus of Nazareth.[2][3][4] His birth, which is the basis for the anno Domini system of dating, has been determined by modern historians as having occurred between 7 and 2 BC. The date of celebration is not thought to be Jesus' actual date of birth. It may have been chosen to coincide with the winter solstice,[5] which the ancient Romans celebrated on December 25.[6]
> 
> Christmas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Was there a point to this?


----------



## Ravi (Dec 4, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Nice try, but wrong again YAWN.
> 
> "A Wal-Mart spokesman, Dan Folgleman, called it a tragic situation, and said the victim had been hired from a temporary staffing agency and assigned to maintenance work. "
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/29/business/29walmart.html


Regardless, unless Walmart has changed its policy recently, they do have greeters. At my local Walmart it is usually a grumpy old man doling out shopping carts and return stickers.


----------



## catzmeow (Dec 4, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> No, they won't rest until they can expose everyone to the allegedly only true religion.  Putting an Xmas tree in their living room may make them happy but it doesn't expose us heathens to their magic solution to everyone's problems.



Yes, god knows, our society would collapse without those ten commandments in the courtrooms.  None of us who work in the field could even remotely do our jobs without their guidance.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 4, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Nice try, but wrong again YAWN.
> 
> "A Wal-Mart spokesman, Dan Folgleman, called it a &#8220;tragic situation,&#8221; and said the victim had been hired from a temporary staffing agency and assigned to maintenance work. "
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/29/business/29walmart.html




A lot of other news stories describe him as a WalMart greeter.  
Also you can refer to me as YWN.  Thanks.

Although the existence of WalMart greeters is not relevant to the topic being discussed, WalMart does have them.

Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. - New Boston Wal-Mart Supercenter Celebrates Grand Opening

_The 7:30 a.m. grand opening ceremony will begin with an invocation by Ron Rinnert, *a Wal-Mart greeter*. Mayor Johnny Branson and Chamber of Commerce President Kelly Branson will attend. Samples by Coke, Pepsi, Bluebell, Nabisco, Fuji and other products carried by Wal-Mart will be given away at the opening_


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 4, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> No, they won't rest until they can* expose *everyone to the allegedly only true religion.  Putting an Xmas tree in their living room may make them happy but it doesn't expose us heathens to their magic solution to everyone's problems.






it's not like we're trying to give you smallpox or anything,, jeez  whatever a christian exposes you to will do you no harm, unless you get in a perpetual state of twitchiness!


----------



## mattskramer (Dec 4, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> see? that's yer myth,, it is for everybody,, we just like to call it Christmas.. would you like me to wish you merry atheiest?? I will.. merry christmas and merry atheist too..



"Season's Greetings" from this Atheist.


----------



## mattskramer (Dec 4, 2008)

Ravi said:


> Stop! I'm beginning to think the entire Christian religion is made up of myths and lies!



I have thought that for a long time.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 4, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> Yes, god knows, our society would collapse without those ten commandments in the courtrooms.  None of us who work in the field could even remotely do our jobs without their guidance.



It doesn't say much for the integrity of folks who can't behave unless they have the 10 commandments posted in the room.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 4, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> it's not like we're trying to give you smallpox or anything,, jeez  whatever a christian exposes you to will do you no harm, unless you get in a perpetual state of twitchiness!



So you want to violate the Constitution and commandeer the government to promote your religion and roll your eyes at *us* for complaining?  We won't allow ourselves to be doormats anymore.  We have the Constitution on our side so get used to it or move somewhere where there is a theocracy.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 4, 2008)

Againsheila said:


> I think it's a bit hypocritical of stores to sell Christmas decorations, Christmas trees, push the idea of purchasing Christmas presents and all the while substituted the word "holiday" for Christmas.




They do sell things related to other religious holidays too, you know.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 4, 2008)

Originally Posted by catzmeow  
Is your faith so puny that you need the secular state to prop it up? Or, can it exist singularly in your heart, without such impositions on other people?

I guess I missed the part in Matthew 5 where Jesus says, "And make sure you post the ten commandments in every courtroom and a manger at every city hall."

I'd like you to explain to me why you NEED those things in those locations. Your post makes it sound like it's really no big deal, so why the furor? I'm quite certain that in every small town in America, there is a church within a block of city hall with a front lawn wide enough for a manger....So, why the indignation over moving the manger there?



WillowTree said:


> give me something besides yer talking points. and Merry Merry Christmas..




Translation: WillowTree can't answer your question.  Big surprise there.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 4, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> Christmas is a Federal Holiday



Irrelevant.



> in a predominately Christian nation.



Also irrelevant as are most of your posts here.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 4, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> Was there a point to this?



Yeah, about as much of a point as your 'yule' wiki.  Love how you guys throw out the 'pagan' stuff.  Christmas TODAY is celebrated as a religious celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 4, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Yawn, the more you post the less of a point you make.  zzzzzzzzzzz



Is that your way of avoiding the issues I addressed?


----------



## Ravi (Dec 4, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Yeah, about as much of a point as your 'yule' wiki.  Love how you guys throw out the 'pagan' stuff.  Christmas TODAY is celebrated as a religious celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ.


To many, that is correct. Sadly, to many others it seems to be the prolonged whine of an entitlement junkie. Why don't you quit whining and ask yourself, what would Jesus do?


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 4, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Yeah, about as much of a point as your 'yule' wiki.  Love how you guys throw out the 'pagan' stuff.  Christmas TODAY is celebrated as a religious celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ.



So why isn't Christmas in September?


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 4, 2008)

The only flaws with christmas:

1. Christians think it's their religion. Face it, it's nothing about christians except one tiny misplaced myth.

2. It's slowly creeping into other holidays.

3. It's the same songs, movies, and images every year and that's just annoying.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 4, 2008)

Ravi said:


> Regardless, unless Walmart has changed its policy recently, they do have greeters. At my local Walmart it is usually a grumpy old man doling out shopping carts and return stickers.



And the one I went to yesterday didn't.  



YWN666 said:


> A lot of other news stories describe him as a WalMart greeter.



Couldn't find them.  Did find one on Fox that said they put him up front cause he was a big guy.  Maybe they thought he'd somehow control the crowd because of that.  No mention of him being a greeter though.



> Although the existence of WalMart greeters is not relevant to the topic being discussed, WalMart does have them.
> 
> Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. - New Boston Wal-Mart Supercenter Celebrates Grand Opening
> 
> _The 7:30 a.m.* grand opening ceremony *will begin with an invocation by Ron Rinnert, *a Wal-Mart greeter*. Mayor Johnny Branson and Chamber of Commerce President Kelly Branson will attend. Samples by Coke, Pepsi, Bluebell, Nabisco, Fuji and other products carried by Wal-Mart will be given away at the opening_




Maybe they just hire them for grand openings.


----------



## mattskramer (Dec 4, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> They do sell things related to other religious holidays too, you know.



If you dont like how a business does business then dont do business with it.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 4, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> I can hear the plaintive tones in your voice.  let's be clear here.
> 
> NO ONE is proposing that churches be denied the right to put up whatever display they wish on their private property.  The "impositions" you have described are all assertions of a specific creed on shared public property.   And, that seems to be an imposition on others, in that context.
> 
> ...



That post deserves a


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 4, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> So why isn't Christmas in September?



I refer to you as YAWN because you make me tired.  Go read the bloody article.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 4, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> So you want to violate the Constitution and commandeer the government to promote your religion and roll your eyes at *us* for complaining?  We won't allow ourselves to be doormats anymore.  We have the Constitution on our side so get used to it or move somewhere where there is a theocracy.



it's not like Christians have cooties or anything!!!! you'll survive.. really ya will..


----------



## Ravi (Dec 4, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> The only flaws with christmas:
> 
> 1. Christians think it's their religion. Face it, it's nothing about christians except one tiny misplaced myth.
> 
> ...


Yeah, Christmas is taking over the entire fall. It always cracks me up to go to the drug store and see Halloween, Thanksgiving AND Christmas decorations all displayed at the same time.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 4, 2008)

Ravi said:


> To many, that is correct. Sadly, to many others it seems to be the prolonged whine of an entitlement junkie. Why don't you quit whining and ask yourself, what would Jesus do?



Why Jesus would ask for another piece of birthday cake!


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 4, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> I refer to you as YAWN because you make me tired.  Go read the bloody article.




Ahh, so you can't answer the question and insult me instead.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 4, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> So you want to violate the Constitution and commandeer the government to promote your religion and roll your eyes at *us* for complaining?  We won't allow ourselves to be doormats anymore.  We have the Constitution on our side so get used to it or move somewhere where there is a theocracy.






doormats???? atheist doormats.. I can't stand it,,, I simply can't stand it   Bill O'Reilly has "Don't Be A Pin Head" mats over at his place,  where can I get an atheist doormat????


----------



## catzmeow (Dec 4, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> So you want to violate the Constitution and commandeer the government to promote your religion and roll your eyes at *us* for complaining?  We won't allow ourselves to be doormats anymore.  We have the Constitution on our side so get used to it or move somewhere where there is a theocracy.




God needs them to.  He's unable to handle his own promotional activities.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 4, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> Ahh, so you can't answer the question and insult me instead.



YWN -- GO READ THE WIKI ARTICLE I POSTED.  THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION IS IN THERE.  

Better?


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 4, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> it's not like Christians have cooties or anything!!!! you'll survive.. really ya will..



Do you ever post anything intelligent or is it all cutesy blather like the above?  Points are made and instead of discussing them and/or refuting them, you act like a 2 year old to avoid addressing those points.  You're not fooling anyone.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 4, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Why Jesus would ask for another piece of birthday cake!


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 4, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> And the one I went to yesterday didn't.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As greeters that you say don't exist.


----------



## mattskramer (Dec 4, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> So why isn't Christmas in September?



Christmas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Christmas is an annual holiday celebrated on December 25 that marks and honors the birth of Jesus of Nazareth.  The date of celebration is not thought to be Jesus' actual date of birth. It may have been chosen to coincide with the winter solstice, which the ancient Romans celebrated on December 25.


----------



## Ravi (Dec 4, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Why Jesus would ask for another piece of birthday cake!


No, he'd probably make sure everyone else got some.


----------



## mattskramer (Dec 4, 2008)

Ravi said:


> No, he'd probably make sure everyone else got some.



He would magically multiply the number of fish and loaves of bread.  Oh, if only he would do that again in places like Somalia today.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 4, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> *Do you ever post anything intelligent *or is it all cutesy blather like the above?  Points are made and instead of discussing them and/or refuting them, you act like a 2 year old to avoid addressing those points.  You're not fooling anyone.






depends soley on to whom I am speaking really you won't get cooties,, it won't rub off on ya.... yer gonna be all right,, trust me,, you will survive Christmas!!!


----------



## Ravi (Dec 4, 2008)

mattskramer said:


> He would magically multiply the number of fish and loaves of bread.  Oh, if only he would do that again in places like Somalia today.


Maybe he got mad at them for saying Happy Holiday? I hear he smote New Orleans recently for their evil ways.


----------



## catzmeow (Dec 4, 2008)

Ravi said:


> Maybe he got mad at them for saying Happy Holiday? I hear he smote New Orleans recently for their evil ways.



Dudes, don't you know that God was busy getting 4 million Americans a better deal on their car insurance this month from geico.com?


----------



## ABikerSailor (Dec 4, 2008)

Ravi said:


> Maybe he got mad at them for saying Happy Holiday? I hear he smote New Orleans recently for their evil ways.



Hey Ravi, did you notice something when Katrina hit?

The 9th Ward was DESTROYED........however.........Burbon Street (you know, the one with all the gays and sex, and drinking and debauchery?), was damaged VERY LITTLE.

I don't think it's so much that God smote the "unholy people", as it is that He smote the tight-assed individuals who claimed to know what He was thinking.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 4, 2008)

poor poor excludeds, don't get no good car insurance,, that just sux


----------



## RodISHI (Dec 4, 2008)

ABikerSailor said:


> Hey Ravi, did you notice something when Katrina hit?
> 
> The 9th Ward was DESTROYED........however.........Burbon Street (you know, the one with all the gays and sex, and drinking and debauchery?), was damaged VERY LITTLE.
> 
> I don't think it's so much that God smote the "unholy people", as it is that He smote the tight-assed individuals who claimed to know what He was thinking.


That must be akin to that same as, "Judgement begins at the house of God first"


----------



## ABikerSailor (Dec 4, 2008)

Yeah.......and the people that mis-interpret this stuff kinda get their asses handed to them.

Remember Ted Haggard?  Jerry Falwell?  All the others?


----------



## RodISHI (Dec 4, 2008)

ABikerSailor said:


> Yeah.......and the people that mis-interpret this stuff kinda get their asses handed to them.
> 
> Remember Ted Haggard?  Jerry Falwell?  All the others?


To much temptation for them I suppose.


----------



## mattskramer (Dec 4, 2008)

ABikerSailor said:


> Hey Ravi, did you notice something when Katrina hit?
> 
> The 9th Ward was DESTROYED........however.........Burbon Street (you know, the one with all the gays and sex, and drinking and debauchery?), was damaged VERY LITTLE.
> 
> I don't think it's so much that God smote the "unholy people", as it is that He smote the tight-assed individuals who claimed to know what He was thinking.



The people of Somalia must be great sinners.


----------



## ABikerSailor (Dec 4, 2008)

mattskramer said:


> The people of Somalia must be great sinners.



It's not the people, it is the people controlling the people that are sinners.


----------



## Navy1960 (Dec 4, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> That matter has already been decided by the Supreme Court and my comments agree with their decisions and again, your assertion that the holiday bothers me shows that you do _not_ understand what I have been saying.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




While I respect your  opinion it is in the end just that an opinion and like mine even though it differs to a large degree, it seems you fail to comprehend  what my post actually say's. So I will be more direct so in the spirit of the holiday's , Chirstmas, and several other names that anyone wishes to apply to it it will perhaps come across you.   Let's see, where too begin, I think by posting  the ACTUAL Amendment to the constitution I* made it quite clear what the constitution says and have made NO claim that the government should be endorsing a state religion so your  assertion as to my opnion as  no merit whatsoever.* ( I put that in bold as to leave no doubt in your mind as to my position on that ).  As to the  agrument on the Coke Machine vs. a sign that says Merry Christmas it was to illustrate a state sponsored "endorsement" of it's brand by actually placing the Coke Machine in the lobby, and therefor because of it's authority under law the brand name is given legal weight simply by being in that location.   Your assertion that I somehow equated Coke as a religion is  comepletely off the mark and shows a  lack of  critical thinking skills when it comes to this topic. To answer your question as to the prohibiting of the free exercise clause is actually a very simple one.  If you as  a taxpayer pay taxes to any state, local, or Federal Govt. that in turn makes use of those funds for public facilities  and then denies you the right to exercise your right to freedom of religion by posting a "Merry Christmas" sign in a lobby, hallway, yard , etc. they are  ( here is the  keyword "in my opnion") denying you the free exercise thereof according to the constitution. Not a hard concept to get a grasp on , but obviously if your of the opinion that this is not the case, or choose to ignore that part of the amendment then of course I can see where  it might be confusing. What else was your assertion?, " How is the  prevention of posting those signs somehow preventing that? paraphrased"  Well that should be pretty easy to understand as I pointed out above.  The  bottom line here though as I pointed out  in my last posting. is that these are just opinions and much like  a movie one mans nonsense is another mans nobel prize.


Cantwell v. Connecticut (1940)

In overturning a conviction for disturbing the peace, held that the Free Exercise Clause applies to state as well as federal actions. 


City of Boerne v. Flores (1997) 

Ruled that Congress lacks the power to substitute its judgment for that of the federal judiciary on the norms of religious liberty that states must obey.


Sherbert v. Verner (1963) 

Ruled that a South Carolina unemployment policy forcing an employee to choose between her faiths Saturday Sabbath and eligibility for unemployment benefits violated the Free Exercise Clause. 


There are just as many Free Exercise cases as well so, when you decide to dismiss out of hand as nonsense  an argument I suggest you take the time to actually read the constitution before doing so.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 4, 2008)

Ravi said:


> No, he'd probably make sure everyone else got some.



Touche!


----------



## catzmeow (Dec 4, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Touche!



Eating the Jesus cake would be a lot like sipping tea with a 4-year-old's invisible friend.


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 4, 2008)

RodISHI said:


> To much temptation for them I suppose.



The most preachers have that same problem, since we know they are the rule and not the minority now.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 4, 2008)

it won't rub off on ya I promise, you don't get it by osmosis either! keep up the good fight. folks


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 4, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> depends soley on to whom I am speaking really you won't get cooties,, it won't rub off on ya.... yer gonna be all right,, trust me,, you will survive Christmas!!!




You people have a knack for unintentionally confirming our assessments of your childish behavior.  Thanks.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 4, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> You people have a knack for unintentionally confirming our assessments of your childish behavior.  Thanks.




you okay there buddy? you ain't expired from a christian breathing on ya or nuttin? Jez checking! you'll be all right..


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 4, 2008)

mattskramer said:


> If you dont like how a business does business then dont do business with it.



I was pointing out to Sheila that Christmas is not the only religious holiday in December - there are others to consider which she did not.  I wasn't saying that I didn't like the way the store did business.


----------



## catzmeow (Dec 4, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> it won't rub off on ya I promise, you don't get it by osmosis either! keep up the good fight. folks



Come on!  you know teh stupid is contagious!


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 4, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> Come on!  you know teh stupid is contagious!





I know,, I'm just trying to reassure youse guys that you'll be fine, Christianity ain't a disease or nutting.


----------



## catzmeow (Dec 4, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> I know,, I'm just trying to reassure youse guys that you'll be fine, Christianity ain't a disease or nutting.



You are the borg and you're trying to assimilate us!  I won't be your 7 of 9, dammit!  (even though she's really hot)


----------



## Black Lance (Dec 4, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> I can hear the plaintive tones in your voice.  let's be clear here.
> 
> NO ONE is proposing that churches be denied the right to put up whatever display they wish on their private property.  The "impositions" you have described are all assertions of a specific creed on shared public property.   And, that seems to be an imposition on others, in that context.
> 
> ...



Christmas being a federal holiday, your thesis that Christmas decorations do not belong in government buildings seems, well, absurd.

Why should Christmas decorations not be in federal buildings, besides the fact that they offend atheists?


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 4, 2008)

Black Lance said:


> Christmas being a federal holiday, your thesis that Christmas decorations do not belong in government buildings seems, well, absurd.
> 
> Why should Christmas decorations not be in federal buildings, besides the fact that they offend atheists?



It's government endorsement of religion that is forbidden by the Constitution.  The fact that Christmas is a federal holiday is irrelevant.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 4, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> As greeters that you say don't exist.




Grasping at straws again Yawn.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 4, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> Eating the Jesus cake would be a lot like sipping tea with a 4-year-old's invisible friend.



Yes, it would be . . .  for you.


----------



## Mencken (Dec 4, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> It's government endorsement of religion that is forbidden by the Constitution.  The fact that Christmas is a federal holiday is irrelevant.



It's not an endorsement of the Christian faith. I think that's an inaccurate representation because if it were, we've been violating the Constitution since George Washington said "So help me God" at his inauguration. 

It is merely a civilization's celebration of its dominant faith and in this pluralistic society that adheres to Judeo-Christian values, a Christmas wreath at the White House, saying Merry Christmas, and Christmas trees on federal property do not represent a endorsement of Christianity as much as a recognition of the fact that our civilization has been Christian and celebrates one if its major holidays accordingly.

What I'm saying in short, it's not endorsement. The Government does not say "You must be Christian. We are a Christian government." To say explicitly an endorsement, it would have to be a resolution saying we are a Christian Government and we are bound by the laws of Jesus. Nothing of the sort is going on here. 

The Government is simply saying "We recognize that many people are Christian and it is a custom to have Christmas trees at Christmas and to say Merry Christmas," etc.


----------



## Black Lance (Dec 4, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> It's government endorsement of religion that is forbidden by the Constitution.  The fact that Christmas is a federal holiday is irrelevant.



Then your real argument is that having Christmas as a federal holiday is unconstitutional. Sad, Mr. Scrooge.

Has the government made Christmas a federal holiday because it wants to make an establishment of religion, or because most of the population participates in this holiday and won't want to come in to work on Christmas day?


----------



## Ravi (Dec 4, 2008)

The more federal holidays the merrier, IMO. We really should have at least one federal holiday for every religion practiced in the USA.


----------



## WhiteLion (Dec 4, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> *shoving down throat* boy what a drama queen.
> 
> 
> 
> a manager, a christmas tree, a yuletide carol,,===shoving down throat,, jeez there's lots to be upset about but,, Christmas??? wow,,


True Willow, what is it about Christmas that angers them so bad???  another cool cat avatar


----------



## WhiteLion (Dec 4, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> Come on!  you know teh stupid is contagious!


Yeh hah takes one to know one???


----------



## WhiteLion (Dec 4, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> It's government endorsement of religion that is forbidden by the Constitution.  The fact that Christmas is a federal holiday is irrelevant.


Its freedom of religion, not freedom from religion and shall not be infringed upon


----------



## WhiteLion (Dec 4, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> Dudes, don't you know that God was busy getting 4 million Americans a better deal on their car insurance this month from geico.com? I gave myself to Jesus, but now he never calls.


HE'S always been there, where'd you go?, or did you really saleout to HIM


----------



## WhiteLion (Dec 4, 2008)

editec said:


> Not a single person on this board attempting to create the lie that there is some kind of war on Christmas gives a rat's ass what greeters say to them.
> 
> This is a NON issue, just like so many issues the right wing nuts on this board bring up.
> 
> ...


The real issue here is how in hell did you escape from the nut house


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 4, 2008)

You know what would be REALLY cool? A satanists christmas decoration setup in the mall.


----------



## WhiteLion (Dec 4, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> You know what would be REALLY cool? A satanists christmas decoration setup in the mall.


ouuu yeh we got enough devils here to decorate it


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 4, 2008)

WhiteLion said:


> ouuu yeh we got enough devils here to decorate it



Well ... satanism is just another christian cult so it would make sens, though I suspect it would be darker than the christian idols used it would still be interesting.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 5, 2008)

I sincerely hope everyone has a Merry Merry Christmas..


----------



## Navy1960 (Dec 5, 2008)

Mencken said:


> It's not an endorsement of the Christian faith. I think that's an inaccurate representation because if it were, we've been violating the Constitution since George Washington said "So help me God" at his inauguration.
> 
> It is merely a civilization's celebration of its dominant faith and in this pluralistic society that adheres to Judeo-Christian values, a Christmas wreath at the White House, saying Merry Christmas, and Christmas trees on federal property do not represent a endorsement of Christianity as much as a recognition of the fact that our civilization has been Christian and celebrates one if its major holidays accordingly.
> 
> ...



George Washington said it best with his Thanksgiving day proclamation --- Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor; and Whereas both Houses of Congress have, by their joint committee, requested me "to recommend to the people of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness:"Now, therefore, I do recommend and assign Thursday, the 26th day of November next, to be devoted by the people of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being who is the beneficent author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be; that we may then all unite in rendering unto Him our sincere and humble thanks for His kind care and protection of the people of this country previous to their becoming a nation"

"For we deal here not with the establishment of a state church, which would, of course, be constitutionally impermissible, but with whether school children who want to begin their day by joining in prayer must be prohibited from doing so. Moreover, I think that the Court's task, in this as in all areas of constitutional adjudication, is not responsibly aided by the uncritical invocation of metaphors like the 'wall of separation,' a phrase nowhere to be found in the Constitution. What is relevant to the issue here is not the history of an established church in sixteenth century England or in eighteenth century America, but the history of the religious traditions of our people, reflected in countless practices of the institutions and officials of our government." Justice Potter Stewart, in his 1962 dissenting opinion in Engel v. Vitale

Former U. S. Chief Justice Warren Berger said that the Constitution does not require complete separation of church and state. It mandates accommodation, not merely tolerance, of all religions and forbids hostility toward any.

"In matters of religion, I have considered that its free exercise is placed by the Constitution independent of the powers of the General Government. I have therefore undertaken, on no occasion, to prescribe the religious exercise suited to it; but have left them, as the Constitution found them, under the direction and discipline of state and church authorities acknowledged by the several religious societies". Thomas Jefferson

"Whereas, the Senate of the United States devoutly recognizing the Supreme Authority and just Government of Almighty God in all the affairs of men and of nations, has, by a resolution, requested the President to designate and set apart a day for national prayer and humiliation:
And whereas, it is the duty of nations as well as of men to own their dependence upon the overruling power of God, to confess their sins and transgressions in humble sorrow yet with assured hope that genuine repentance will lead to mercy and pardon, and to recognize the sublime truth, announced in the Holy Scriptures and proven by all history: that those nations only are blessed whose God is the Lord:"  Abraham Lincoln

"All are free to believe or not believe, all are free to practice a faith or not, but those who believe must be free to speak of and act on their belief, to apply moral teaching to public questions Tolerant society is open to and encouraging of all religions, and this does not weaken us; it strengthens us Without God, there is no virtue, because there's no prompting of the conscience. Without God, we're mired in the material, that flat world that tells us only what the senses perceive. Without God, there is a coarsening of the society and without God, democracy will not and cannot long endure." Ronald Reagan


*It is merely a civilization's celebration of its dominant faith and in this pluralistic society that adheres to Judeo-Christian values, a Christmas wreath at the White House, saying Merry Christmas, and Christmas trees on federal property do not represent a endorsement of Christianity as much as a recognition of the fact that our civilization has been Christian and celebrates one if its major holidays accordingly.*  I completely agree  and those are but a few  historical instances where it is very clear.  The  seperation Clause  does not specifically forbid any religion , in fact historically it's authors  intention was  very clear that it was to celebrate tolerance of religion and it's intent was not to be used as a weapon to forbid any specific religion as much as  many may believe.  It is also very clear from a historical view that this nation was founded on Judeo-Christian values and  one need but look back through this nations history to see that.


----------



## mattskramer (Dec 5, 2008)

ABikerSailor said:


> It's not the people, it is the people controlling the people that are sinners.



Yes, and the innocent people get punished for it.  Bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people.  There is no rhyme or reason for it.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 5, 2008)

WhiteLion said:


> Its freedom of religion, not freedom from religion and shall not be infringed upon



If you have freedom OF religion, you MUST have freedom FROM religion.  You're saying I can choose any religion I like but that I must choose one?  The option being free from religion is really not an option?  That is nonsense.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 5, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> Well ... satanism is just another christian cult so it would make sens, though I suspect it would be darker than the christian idols used it would still be interesting.



That is what some of the more rabid christians don't understand.  Prohibiting government endorsement of religion protects them, too.  In fact, many of the court cases brought by the ACLU concerning religion in government were filed on behalf of christians.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 5, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Grasping at straws again Yawn.




The proof was there for you to see right rom the WalMart website.  I don't understand why you're pursuing this "greeters don't exist" argument when it is not at all relevant to the case.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 5, 2008)

Mencken said:


> It's not an endorsement of the Christian faith. I think that's an inaccurate representation because if it were, we've been violating the Constitution since George Washington said "So help me God" at his inauguration.
> 
> It is merely a civilization's celebration of its dominant faith and in this pluralistic society that adheres to Judeo-Christian values, a Christmas wreath at the White House, saying Merry Christmas, and Christmas trees on federal property do not represent a endorsement of Christianity as much as a recognition of the fact that our civilization has been Christian and celebrates one if its major holidays accordingly.
> 
> ...



You're referring to situations where individuals in government are expressing their religious beliefs.  If George Bush says "God is real" then that is his personal opinion.  If the words "God is real" are engraved on the frieze of the US Supreme Court, then it is the government making the statement and it is not allowed.  It is the same situation with graves in a national cemeteries.  Individual government headstones have symbols for the christian, jewish, and other faiths (they even have symbols for atheists!) but what they cannot do is display a huge cross at the entrance to the cemetery that suggests that it is a christian cemetery.


----------



## Againsheila (Dec 5, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> If you have freedom OF religion, you MUST have freedom FROM religion.  You're saying I can choose any religion I like but that I must choose one?  The option being free from religion is really not an option?  That is nonsense.



Not at all.  We're saying that when we say grace you don't have to participate, but you can't stop us either.  

Freedom of religion means that we can be religious whenever and whereever we want and don't have to stop because it offends you.  It means that muslims can do their prayers in the middle of the dang airport and you can't stop it.  It means the Christians can say grace before they eat in the school cafeteria and you can't stop it.

Sadly, too many athiests have taken their freedom to far and believe they have a right to freedom from religion as the organization that sent the sign to our state capital that says religion causes hearts to harden and enslaves minds.  They think they have a right to tell highschool graduates that they can't say a prayer when they graduate rather than just sitting there quietly until it's over.

Did you read about the highschool that was told they couldn't say a prayer?  After the program was over, one graduate went up to the podium, the crowd fell silent.  The entire graduating class, at one time, sneezed.  He just looked at them and said "God Bless You".  Sad that they had to sneak that prayer in rather than being allowed to just say a prayer when they graduated, don't you think?

There isn't just a war on Christmas in this country, there is a war on Christianity.  You can see it in our public schools.  When a student at our local elementary school started to say Grace alloud before he ate, the lunchroom attendent told him he had to say it quietly or not at all.  When a group of elementary school kids ON THEIR OWN gathered around the flag pole and started to say a prayer in the morning BEFORE SCHOOL STARTED, the principal came out and told them to disperse.  When a junior high kid brought his Bible to class to read during free reading time, he was told it wasn't allowed.  It took the parents going to the school board to force that school to allow kids to read their Bibles during FREE READING TIME!!!

What do you call it when our rights are being chipped away little by little?  Oh, wait, you don't think we have the right to our religion.  You think it's hard hearted and stupid and that we shouldn't be allowed to pray in front of you, right?


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 5, 2008)

Black Lance said:


> Then your real argument is that having Christmas as a federal holiday is unconstitutional. Sad, Mr. Scrooge.



I never said such a thing



> Has the government made Christmas a federal holiday because it wants to make an establishment of religion, or because most of the population participates in this holiday and won't want to come in to work on Christmas day?



The latter.  I imagine it is an economic decision.  If the majority of workers are Christian, why stay open when no one will be there?


----------



## strollingbones (Dec 5, 2008)

no one can stop anyone from praying....if i am not mistaken the bible says pray not for the glory of man but go into  your closet to pray.....


----------



## Againsheila (Dec 5, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> You know what would be REALLY cool? A satanists christmas decoration setup in the mall.



For many years, our local mall had a giving tree.  Decorations of names and families that needed help.  People could come and choose a name and then buy a present and give it to the people at the giving tree.  Someone decided that was too religious and told them they couldn't have the giving tree that Christmas.  Didn't stop them from having Santa, but gee, how dare they provide a tree so that people can choose to buy presents for the poor?

Santa of course, brings in money for the mall, what with all the pictures.  And he better be quick too.  Years ago we had the best Santa ever at the mall.  He had his own beard, on his breaks he would walk around the mall, saying "ho ho ho" and talking to the kids.  They FIRED him because he spent too much time with each child and they weren't making enough money on those stupid photos.  Talk about commercialism.  A tree which provides gifts for the poor isn't allowed and Santa can't even spend time with the kids, it's just get the picture and push 'em down the slide.

You don't think this is a war on Christmas?  Or do you really think that's what Christmas is all about?  Commercialism?


----------



## strollingbones (Dec 5, 2008)

WhiteLion said:


> Its freedom of religion, not freedom from religion and shall not be infringed upon



hmmm i think its freedom from religion in the aspect that there is to be no national religion


----------



## strollingbones (Dec 5, 2008)

o hell yea its about stuff buying stuff come on mrs shelia..they trampled a man to death to buy stuff...unfortunately the purpose of most holidays by most religions are now mere shadows of what they once were


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 5, 2008)

Againsheila said:


> Not at all.  We're saying that when we say grace you don't have to participate, but you can't stop us either.
> 
> Freedom of religion means that we can be religious whenever and whereever we want and don't have to stop because it offends you.  It means that muslims can do their prayers in the middle of the dang airport and you can't stop it.  It means the Christians can say grace before they eat in the school cafeteria and you can't stop it.
> 
> ...




   

On Halloween one year the high school kids were allowed to dress up.  The kid who dressed as Jesus was sent home from school because he was dressed as Jesus (he was told this); the kid dressed as satan was allowed to stay.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 5, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> The proof was there for you to see right rom the WalMart website.  I don't understand why you're pursuing this "greeters don't exist" argument when it is not at all relevant to the case.



You guys bought up the store greeters, not us.  Why did you bother bringing it up in the first place if it has no relevance to this discussion? All I wanted to know is what stores hire people to stand there and greet customers as they enter the store.  Still waiting for a legit answer on this one, as the Wal-mart and Target I went to this week didn't have anyone there to wish me a Merry Chrismahannukwanzza. 




Shogun said:


> yea yea yea...  you are not the only belief system with a holiday during this time of year, dogma junkie.  We've already won; *go ask Retail store greeters *all about it.


----------



## Red Dawn (Dec 5, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Try as they may the secular progressives will not win this war.
> 
> 
> .




Shit.   Foiled again.    

We may have lost the battle, but not the war.   Right now as we speak, SPs are plotting the war on Easter.


----------



## Againsheila (Dec 5, 2008)

strollingbones said:


> o hell yea its about stuff buying stuff come on mrs shelia..they trampled a man to death to buy stuff...unfortunately the purpose of most holidays by most religions are now mere shadows of what they once were



One has to wonder how many of that mob were Christians and how many of them were just there to get a deal.  Set it up so bad things happen and you can claim it's because there is no God, or that religious people are hard hearted and stupid.  

I still blame Walmart for that.  We need some laws.  There should be no "limited quantities" sales without proper security.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 5, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> You're referring to situations where individuals in government are expressing their religious beliefs.  If George Bush says "God is real" then that is his personal opinion.  If the words "God is real" are engraved on the frieze of the US Supreme Court, then it is the government making the statement and it is not allowed.  It is the same situation with graves in a national cemeteries.  Individual government headstones have symbols for the christian, jewish, and other faiths (they even have symbols for atheists!) but what they cannot do is display a huge cross at the entrance to the cemetery that suggests that it is a christian cemetery.



I find it interesting that you didn't bother to respond to Navy1960's post to you in reference to this (page 30) and his post to Mencken on the previous page.


----------



## Againsheila (Dec 5, 2008)

strollingbones said:


> no one can stop anyone from praying....if i am not mistaken the bible says pray not for the glory of man but go into  your closet to pray.....



Don't know about you, but I don't usually bring my closet with me when I go to school or out to eat.  In fact, I distictly remember getting into trouble when I was caught in the closet at school, though I will admit, I was not there to pray.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 5, 2008)

Red Dawn said:


> Shit.   Foiled again.
> 
> We may have lost the battle, but not the war.   Right now as we speak, SPs are plotting the war on Easter.




Oh no!! I hope it doesn't include this:


----------



## Againsheila (Dec 5, 2008)

Red Dawn said:


> Shit.   Foiled again.
> 
> We may have lost the battle, but not the war.   Right now as we speak, SPs are plotting the war on Easter.



Don't you touch that Easter Bunny, and remember, those chocolate ears are mine.

BTW, Easter is NOT a national holiday.


----------



## Againsheila (Dec 5, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> On Halloween one year the high school kids were allowed to dress up.  The kid who dressed as Jesus was sent home from school because he was dressed as Jesus (he was told this); the kid dressed as satan was allowed to stay.



I read that.  And they don't think there is a concerted effort against Christianity in this country......Don't you wish some people could actually see what they are looking at?


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 5, 2008)

Navy1960 said:


> While I respect your  opinion it is in the end just that an opinion and like mine even though it differs to a large degree, it seems you fail to comprehend  what my post actually say's. So I will be more direct so in the spirit of the holiday's , Chirstmas, and several other names that anyone wishes to apply to it it will perhaps come across you.   Let's see, where too begin, I think by posting  the ACTUAL Amendment to the constitution I* made it quite clear what the constitution says and have made NO claim that the government should be endorsing a state religion so your  assertion as to my opnion as  no merit whatsoever.* ( I put that in bold as to leave no doubt in your mind as to my position on that ).  As to the  agrument on the Coke Machine vs. a sign that says Merry Christmas it was to illustrate a state sponsored "endorsement" of it's brand by actually placing the Coke Machine in the lobby, and therefor because of it's authority under law the brand name is given legal weight simply by being in that location.   Your assertion that I somehow equated Coke as a religion is  comepletely off the mark and shows a  lack of  critical thinking skills when it comes to this topic.



I didn't say you equated Coke to a religion.  I was saying that your analogy was a poor one because Coke and religion and not comparable in the context of the example you cited.



> To answer your question as to the prohibiting of the free exercise clause is actually a very simple one.  If you as  a taxpayer pay taxes to any state, local, or Federal Govt. that in turn makes use of those funds for public facilities  and then denies you the right to exercise your right to freedom of religion by posting a "Merry Christmas" sign in a lobby, hallway, yard , etc. they are  ( here is the  keyword "in my opnion") denying you the free exercise thereof according to the constitution. Not a hard concept to get a grasp on , but obviously if your of the opinion that this is not the case, or choose to ignore that part of the amendment then of course I can see where  it might be confusing. What else was your assertion?, " How is the  prevention of posting those signs somehow preventing that? paraphrased"  Well that should be pretty easy to understand as I pointed out above.  The  bottom line here though as I pointed out  in my last posting. is that these are just opinions and much like  a movie one mans nonsense is another mans nobel prize.



First of all, your religious freedom ends where the freedom of others begins.  Your religious freedom does NOT include having your religion promoted by the government.  Your example is not relevant since you are talking about a citizen bringing a sign into a government building.  You as a taxpayer have the right to stand in the middle of the Capitol Rotunda and say Jesus is god all you like.  It is the GOVERNMENT that can't do that.  That is the distinction.

Now is it my turn to insult _your_ critical thinking skills?  Or maybe you'd like to discuss this like adults?


----------



## Againsheila (Dec 5, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Oh no!! I hope it doesn't include this:



That is not the Easter Bunny.  Did you bring the Holy Handgrenade?


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 5, 2008)

Againsheila said:


> That is not the Easter Bunny.  Did you bring the Holy Handgrenade?




  

No but I do have this:


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 5, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> You guys bought up the store greeters, not us.  Why did you bother bringing it up in the first place if it has no relevance to this discussion?



They were a part of the story, just not a relevant one.  YOU decided to pick on the word.



> All I wanted to know is what stores hire people to stand there and greet customers as they enter the store.  Still waiting for a legit answer on this one, as the Wal-mart and Target I went to this week didn't have anyone there to wish me a Merry Chrismahannukwanzza.



So they don't exist because YOU didn't see them?  Quite an ego you got there!
Go to the WalMart website and do a search for the word "greeter" and you'll find plenty of references.


----------



## strollingbones (Dec 5, 2008)

Againsheila said:


> One has to wonder how many of that mob were Christians and how many of them were just there to get a deal.  Set it up so bad things happen and you can claim it's because there is no God, or that religious people are hard hearted and stupid.
> 
> I still blame Walmart for that.  We need some laws.  There should be no "limited quantities" sales without proper security.




all of that is true...but this is true too...the majority of americans claim to be christians...so we can gather 70% or more the that trampling crowd would claim to be christians...its not so much about religion as commericalization of the holidays...all of them....i absolutely am against the loss leader limited sales type things on black friday...so i opt to do cyber monday instead...


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 5, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> *They were a part of the story, just not a relevant one.  YOU decided to pick on the word.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Wow such spinner I have never seen.  You guys bought up the 'store greeters', which is why I questioned it.  Never would have occured to me, as I did not know they existed and did  not see any store greeter in the Wal-mart or Target I went to this week.  I even put my glasses on and looked around as I went into the store.  Just saying . . . if they do indeed exsit, you'd think they put 'em right up front and have them doing their job!  (Psss, didn't see them as I left either.  Guess they had one hell of a long lunch break, eh?)

And if they are so irrelevant, why do you keep responding to my posts about them?  Most people would just ignore it . . . . 

YAWN zzzzzzzzzz . . . . .


----------



## Againsheila (Dec 5, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Wow such spinner I have never seen.  You guys bought up the 'store greeters', which is why I questioned it.  Never would have occured to me, as I did not know they existed and did see any store greeter in the Wal-mart or Target I went to this week.  I even put my glasses on and looked around as I went into the store.  Just saying . . . if they do indeed exsit, you'd think they put 'em right up front and have them doing their job!  (Psss, didn't see them as I left either.  Guess they had one hell of a long lunch break, eh?)
> 
> And if they are so irrelevant, why do you keep responding to my posts about them?  Most people would just ignore it . . . .
> 
> YAWN zzzzzzzzzz . . . . .



Dang it Zoom, I just got your avatar.    Dang I'm slow.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 5, 2008)

Againsheila said:


> Not at all.  We're saying that when we say grace you don't have to participate, but you can't stop us either.



Who is stopping you from saying grace?  That is your constitutional right. 



> Freedom of religion means that we can be religious whenever and whereever we want and don't have to stop because it offends you.



True, unless your exercising that right violates the rights of others.



> It means that muslims can do their prayers in the middle of the dang airport and you can't stop it.  It means the Christians can say grace before they eat in the school cafeteria and you can't stop it.



Again, who is stopping them from doing so?  I see this complaint often but when I ask for an example, I either get silence or an example where the _school_ is saying the prayer and that is strictly forbidden.



> Sadly, too many athiests have taken their freedom to far and believe they have a right to freedom from religion as the organization that sent the sign to our state capital that says religion causes hearts to harden and enslaves minds.  They think they have a right to tell highschool graduates that they can't say a prayer when they graduate rather than just sitting there quietly until it's over.



They do have the right to say a prayer anywhere and anytime.  What they _can't _do is conduct the prayer in a group setting using school facilities.  Anyway, if a silent prayer said to oneself does the trick, why do you folks insist on doing it in a group for others to see?  When you demand an audience, it ceases being a prayer and becomes a sermon.



> Did you read about the highschool that was told they couldn't say a prayer?



No but if it was a public high school, they were rightly forbidden.



> After the program was over, one graduate went up to the podium, the crowd fell silent.  The entire graduating class, at one time, sneezed.  He just looked at them and said "God Bless You".  Sad that they had to sneak that prayer in rather than being allowed to just say a prayer when they graduated, don't you think?



So a colloquial expression that people say when someone sneezes has religious significance?  You clever christians really pulled one over on us, eh??  It must have taken months of planning.



> There isn't just a war on Christmas in this country, there is a war on Christianity.



Ahhh, here comes the whining!!!  It was just a matter of time.



> You can see it in our public schools.  When a student at our local elementary school started to say Grace alloud before he ate, the lunchroom attendent told him he had to say it quietly or not at all.  When a group of elementary school kids ON THEIR OWN gathered around the flag pole and started to say a prayer in the morning BEFORE SCHOOL STARTED, the principal came out and told them to disperse.  When a junior high kid brought his Bible to class to read during free reading time, he was told it wasn't allowed.  It took the parents going to the school board to force that school to allow kids to read their Bibles during FREE READING TIME!!!



I'd like to see where this actually happened.  If in fact it _did _happen, then it was a violation of the students rights possibly caused by an overzealous or uninformed employee and not a system wode policy as you are claiming.  I'd like to see a cite for these stories if you have them.



> What do you call it when our rights are being chipped away little by little?  Oh, wait, you don't think we have the right to our religion.



No one is chipping away at your rights.  If you think so, then tell us exactly what rights you are losing and how they are being lost.  There is a lot of christian propaganda out there that has no truth to it but that doesn't stop people like you from eating it up and regurgitating it as the truth.



> You think it's hard hearted and stupid and that we shouldn't be allowed to pray in front of you, right?



I'd also like to see the details of this sign you keep mentioning and the circumstances surrounding it.  if it was in an area wjherte displays of various religions are set up, then you have no say about the content of the displays (with reasonable limitations, of course).  That is the price of allowing religious displays on government property (and I am assuming it was since you're complaining).  You get to have yours, but then you have to allow all other religions, too and you may not like what they have to say.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 5, 2008)

Merry Merry Christmas Everyone!


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 5, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> And if they are so irrelevant, why do you keep responding to my posts about them?  Most people would just ignore it . . . .



Probably because you're ignoring my answers and I am giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you're slow instead of dishonest.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 5, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> So they don't exist because YOU didn't see them?  Quite an ego you got there!
> Go to the WalMart website and do a search for the word "greeter" and you'll find plenty of references.



Interesting that zoomboing ignores the parts of my posts that would embarrass him.  That's what trolls _do_.


----------



## Againsheila (Dec 5, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> Merry Merry Christmas Everyone!



Merry Christmas Willow.

My gift to you athiests...you don't have to listen to me talk about religion until next year.  As of now, I'm no longer posting on this thread until after Christmas.  This makes my Christmas merrier, and perhaps yours too.

Merry Christmas everyone.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 5, 2008)

Againsheila said:


> Merry Christmas Willow.
> 
> My gift to you athiests...you don't have to listen to me talk about religion until next year.  As of now, I'm no longer posting on this thread until after Christmas.  This makes my Christmas merrier, and perhaps yours too.
> 
> Merry Christmas everyone.



If I knew asking you to prove your silly assertions would stop your whining, I would have done it much sooner

The timing is not _too_ obvious, Sheila.


----------



## Mencken (Dec 5, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> You're referring to situations where individuals in government are expressing their religious beliefs.  If George Bush says "God is real" then that is his personal opinion.  If the words "God is real" are engraved on the frieze of the US Supreme Court, then it is the government making the statement and it is not allowed.  It is the same situation with graves in a national cemeteries.  Individual government headstones have symbols for the christian, jewish, and other faiths (they even have symbols for atheists!) but what they cannot do is display a huge cross at the entrance to the cemetery that suggests that it is a christian cemetery.



But the fact remains that there is no endorsement of a religion. An endorsement of a religion would be like the Church of England, where the Queen is Head of the Church of England and the Prime Minister must be an Anglican. That is an endorsement of a religion. 

Simply having "In God we trust" (to use a real world example) is not anything near that and having a simple reflection of what our civilization largely believes is not an endorsement of religion that the Constitution prohibits. It in fact refers to an official state endorsement of a religion, and I think it's reasonable to say that a Christian tree, a "In God we trust" and "One Nation Under God" are all statements that are in line with a national belief in God rather than a specific endorsement of religion.

The kind of endorsement of religion that would be prohibited is e.g, requiring all government officials to be a specific faith, dictating the doctrine of faith from the government, and in general doing much what the Church of England does. 

This is clearly - if you read that gentleman who posted what George Washington said - the intent of the Founders. It's also clear that in 1776 and the subsequent decades, religion was never meant to be completely eliminated. What was to be eliminated was a Church of England type situation.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 5, 2008)

Mencken said:


> But the fact remains that there is no endorsement of a religion. An endorsement of a religion would be like the Church of England, where the Queen is Head of the Church of England and the Prime Minister must be an Anglican. That is an endorsement of a religion.




The Supreme Court disagrees with you.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 5, 2008)

Once again Yawn, until you guys brought up greeters I had no idea they even had such a job.  You're right, Wal-mart actually has people who stand at the door and greet people.  _However, the Wal-mart and Target I went to this week had no one there to greet me.  _ I guess they lack continuity in this area.  

Thanks for responding to yet another one of my irrelevant greeter posts.


----------



## Mencken (Dec 5, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> The Supreme Court disagrees with you.



Are you referring to _Lemon v. Kurtzman_ (1971)?


----------



## Ravi (Dec 5, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Once again Yawn, until you guys brought up greeters I had no idea they even had such a job.  You're right, Wal-mart actually has people who stand at the door and greet people.  _However, the Wal-mart and Target I went to this week had no one there to greet me.  _ I guess they lack continuity in this area.
> 
> Thanks for responding to yet another one of my irrelevant greeter posts.


They probably can't find people that aren't afraid to wish rabid Christians a Happy Holiday for minimum wage.


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 5, 2008)

Another funny fact: There is no 'war' on anything christmas or christian, it's a lame attempt to get attention by them.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 5, 2008)

somebody stole the anit-God sign!!


----------



## Againsheila (Dec 5, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> If I knew asking you to prove your silly assertions would stop your whining, I would have done it much sooner
> 
> The timing is not _too_ obvious, Sheila.



Because you apparently don't know how to google

Local News | Nonbelievers' sign at Capitol counters Nativity | Seattle Times Newspaper

As for the rest, check the Federal Way Mirror and the Federal Way News archives...it costs money and I'm not paying for it just to prove to you I'm not a liar.

I apologize to everyone else.  Ywn won't let it go and sent me a private message to prove my point...again calling me a liar.  Apparently Merry Christmas isn't good enough for Ywn.  This is the last you'll hear from me on this thread, this time I promise.  I'm putting Ywn on ignore.  


Merry Christmas everyone and Happy New Year


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 5, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> Another funny fact: There is no 'war' on anything christmas or christian, it's a lame attempt to get attention by them.




.



she said at post 512


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 5, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> she said at post 512



*grins* I like to wait and see all the funny bickering sometimes before posting the facts. It's like watching dogs chase their tales.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 5, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Once again Yawn, until you guys brought up greeters I had no idea they even had such a job.  You're right, Wal-mart actually has people who stand at the door and greet people.  _However, the Wal-mart and Target I went to this week had no one there to greet me.  _ I guess they lack continuity in this area.



I don't frequent those kind of stores so I wouldn't know.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 5, 2008)

Againsheila said:


> Because you apparently don't know how to google
> 
> Local News | Nonbelievers' sign at Capitol counters Nativity | Seattle Times Newspaper
> 
> As for the rest, check the Federal Way Mirror and the Federal Way News archives...it costs money and I'm not paying for it just to prove to you I'm not a liar.



Oh, I know how to Google but you made the assertions and it is your obligation to prove it.





> I apologize to everyone else.  Ywn won't let it go and sent me a private message to prove my point...again calling me a liar.



Well, the label is appropriate (and my message to you was in response to the rude message you sent _me,_ you idiot).  Fundies like you typically make asinine comments and then when someone calls you on it, you either 
1. say "_YOU_ find it"
2. say "I'm not responding anymore/I'm putting you on ignore"
3. run
You scored the hat trick - you did all three!



> Apparently Merry Christmas isn't good enough for Ywn.




False. That was never the issue and I never said anything like that.



> This is the last you'll hear from me on this thread, this time I promise.  I'm putting Ywn on ignore.



I will have to assume that all of your claims that I challenged were false.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 5, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> Another funny fact: There is no 'war' on anything christmas or christian, it's a lame attempt to get attention by them.



Yep, that is exactly what it is.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 5, 2008)

Quote:
*Originally Posted by Againsheila  
Not at all. We're saying that when we say grace you don't have to participate, but you can't stop us either. *
Who is stopping you from saying grace? That is your constitutional right. 


*Quote:
Freedom of religion means that we can be religious whenever and whereever we want and don't have to stop because it offends you.  *
True, unless your exercising that right violates the rights of others.


*Quote:
It means that muslims can do their prayers in the middle of the dang airport and you can't stop it. It means the Christians can say grace before they eat in the school cafeteria and you can't stop it.  *
Again, who is stopping them from doing so? I see this complaint often but when I ask for an example, I either get silence or an example where the school is saying the prayer and that is strictly forbidden.


*Quote:
Sadly, too many athiests have taken their freedom to far and believe they have a right to freedom from religion as the organization that sent the sign to our state capital that says religion causes hearts to harden and enslaves minds. They think they have a right to tell highschool graduates that they can't say a prayer when they graduate rather than just sitting there quietly until it's over.  *

They do have the right to say a prayer anywhere and anytime. What they can't do is conduct the prayer in a group setting using school facilities. Anyway, if a silent prayer said to oneself does the trick, why do you folks insist on doing it in a group for others to see? When you demand an audience, it ceases being a prayer and becomes a sermon.


*Quote:
Did you read about the highschool that was told they couldn't say a prayer?* 

No but if it was a public high school, they were rightly forbidden.


*Quote:
After the program was over, one graduate went up to the podium, the crowd fell silent. The entire graduating class, at one time, sneezed. He just looked at them and said "God Bless You". Sad that they had to sneak that prayer in rather than being allowed to just say a prayer when they graduated, don't you think?  *

So a colloquial expression that people say when someone sneezes has religious significance? You clever christians really pulled one over on us, eh?? It must have taken months of planning.


*Quote:
There isn't just a war on Christmas in this country, there is a war on Christianity.  *

Ahhh, here comes the whining!!! It was just a matter of time.


*Quote:
You can see it in our public schools. When a student at our local elementary school started to say Grace alloud before he ate, the lunchroom attendent told him he had to say it quietly or not at all. When a group of elementary school kids ON THEIR OWN gathered around the flag pole and started to say a prayer in the morning BEFORE SCHOOL STARTED, the principal came out and told them to disperse. When a junior high kid brought his Bible to class to read during free reading time, he was told it wasn't allowed. It took the parents going to the school board to force that school to allow kids to read their Bibles during FREE READING TIME!!!  *


I'd like to see where this actually happened. If in fact it did happen, then it was a violation of the students rights possibly caused by an overzealous or uninformed employee and not a system wode policy as you are claiming. I'd like to see a cite for these stories if you have them.


*Quote:
What do you call it when our rights are being chipped away little by little? Oh, wait, you don't think we have the right to our religion.  *

No one is chipping away at your rights. If you think so, then tell us exactly what rights you are losing and how they are being lost. There is a lot of christian propaganda out there that has no truth to it but that doesn't stop people like you from eating it up and regurgitating it as the truth.


*Quote:
You think it's hard hearted and stupid and that we shouldn't be allowed to pray in front of you, right?  *

I'd also like to see the details of this sign you keep mentioning and the circumstances surrounding it. if it was in an area wjherte displays of various religions are set up, then you have no say about the content of the displays (with reasonable limitations, of course). That is the price of allowing religious displays on government property (and I am assuming it was since you're complaining). You get to have yours, but then you have to allow all other religions, too and you may not like what they have to say.

Sheila seems to have run away after I asked these questions.  Can anyone else answer them?


----------



## Old Rocks (Dec 5, 2008)

I think we should celebrate Merry Xmas this year by roasting Bill O'Reilly and serving him on a platter with an apple in his mouth. Makes quite a mental picture, no?


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 5, 2008)

Old Rocks said:


> I think we should celebrate Merry Xmas this year by roasting Bill O'Reilly and serving him on a platter with an apple in his mouth. Makes quite a mental picture, no?




I'd rather eat Heidi Klum.  
The fat in Bill O'Really's head would probably start a fire on the BBQ.


----------



## Navy1960 (Dec 6, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> I didn't say you equated Coke to a religion.  I was saying that your analogy was a poor one because Coke and religion and not comparable in the context of the example you cited.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Again you fail to understand the nature of the argument presented and as again I will point out to you the difference between the Separation Clause, and the "shall make no laws" . As I have pointed out in several posts to you and provided  Court Cases to support that argument  and you have not this will be the last time I will present this too you.  I have not denied once that the Govt. is forbidden to establish a religion , however I do submit that Govt. is also forbidden to establish laws to the free exercise thereof. If  posting a sign that say's Merry Christmas is considered  the free exercise of religion then to prevent that is constitutionally forbidden. AS for my freedoms ending where yours begin that argument is a non starter because my freedoms are the very same ones that you enjoy and therefor do not end at any point where yours begin under the constitution. That argument is a  weak at best, if you deny me my Freedoms under the constitution then of course you and I if I were doing the same  thing  would be in violation of the law.  However, simply because a state,city, and Federal Govt. allows for the celebration of a Christian holiday does not deny you the  right to Free Exercise of  religion nor is it establishing a state religion. There is nothing  at all preventing you as a citizen from petitioning your representative to establish a holiday to celebrate  whatever faith or non faith you happen to believe in. 

As for the perceived insult, I was under the impression we were discussing this as adults and was not aware that making a recommendation as to someones critical thinking skills would be taken as an insult. However, if that was  taken that way then you have my apologies.  In the future  I suggest that  if you wish to engage me in debate that  rather than dismiss  arguments out of turn without facts to back them up as  "nonsense" then do not  be surprised that the response would be to criticize your critical thinking skills.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 6, 2008)

Navy, you are a class act. I'd rep you if I could.  Merry Christmas!


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 6, 2008)

Merry Merry Christmas everyone!!


----------



## WhiteLion (Dec 6, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> Will I be wasting my time with you if I refute each one individually?
> 
> The majority of the links dealt with religious displays on government property, so those arguments are false right off the bat.  The rest I can read through but I won't waste my time if you will just deny all of my explanations.


Sure it would be a waste of your time? cause your not goin to change my mind, nor the minds of more than 150 million other federally forced Christians in the USA, MORON


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 6, 2008)

WhiteLion said:


> Sure it would be a waste of your time? cause your not goin to change my mind, nor the minds of more than 150 million other federally forced Christians in the USA, MORON



When the times comes that they try to force their religion into our houses many will probably die at my hands before I go down at least. *grin* Boy am I bright and sunny today.


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 6, 2008)

Blah blah blah Holidays Merry Christmas Happy Channukah  Happy Solstice Happy Kwanzaa  etc etc etc.

Really.  It's not a war on Christmas.  It's a war on who can play the biggest victims over seasonal  greetings.


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 6, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> Blah blah blah Holidays Merry Christmas Happy Channukah  Happy Solstice Happy Kwanzaa  etc etc etc.
> 
> Really.  It's not a war on Christmas.  It's a war on who can play the biggest victims over seasonal  greetings.



But ... but ... it's a war on atheism .... isn't it?


----------



## WhiteLion (Dec 6, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> Originally Posted by YWN666 View Post
> Bullshit. That is NOT my position and never has been.
> I repeatedly said that greeters in stores were given the discretion to decide which greeting to use if they knew that a specific customer celebrated a certain holiday. That's why I told someone here to announce that they celebrated christmas when they walked in the store so the greeter could avoid his temper tantrum by wishing him a Happy Holiday.
> The Happy Holiday greeting was to be used only if the greeter did not know anything about the customer. I NEVER said that Merry Christmas should not be allowed. I said it shouldn't be the only greeting used just to satisfy a few selfish christians.
> ...


WTH does a Wal-Mart greeter have to do with the *war on Christmas*the original subject??? We have Wal_Mart greeters 24-7, 12 months a year, ive never seen a Wal-Mart greeter in court suing(a form of legal war) a Faith based org over the 10 Commandments, Christmas Tree, or Nativity Scene???
Fact of the matter asswipe all the links i provided you with were all accounts from different sources, in which i happen to know most of are credible, weather or not you preconceive is no real consequence to me. Your only purpose here is to confuse and throw off the original subject of the WAR on Christmas. And its not only a War on Christmas but a hell of legal persecution on Christians and Christain organizations, dont come in here with your BS jive talking rationals, you may impress some of these sheeplies here but i know what you really are, your an ANTI-CHRIST type. Its even in your blasphemous spewings, you stinken turd your a waste of good time...Besides anyone that would get offended?? over someone nicely greeting them with Merry Christmas is nut bag period, i mean like hands down nutter...


----------



## WhiteLion (Dec 6, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> Blah blah blah Holidays Merry Christmas Happy Channukah  Happy Solstice Happy Kwanzaa  etc etc etc.
> 
> Really.  It's not a war on Christmas.  It's a war on who can play the biggest victims over seasonal  greetings.


Your full of the same turd juice as that Anti-Christ YWN666


----------



## WhiteLion (Dec 6, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> But ... but ... it's a war on atheism .... isn't it?


Dude!!! go hit that crack pipe again


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 7, 2008)

Ooooh ... 

If you are going to get into a debate, why not pick a side first, so at least the correct people can actually respond.


----------



## Chris (Dec 7, 2008)

Festivus for the rest of us.


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 7, 2008)

chris said:


> festivus For The Rest Of Us.



Amen!


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

Merry Merry Christmas Everyone!


----------



## Ravi (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> Blah blah blah Holidays Merry Christmas Happy Channukah  Happy Solstice Happy Kwanzaa  etc etc etc.
> 
> Really.  It's not a war on Christmas.  It's a war on who can play the biggest victims over seasonal  greetings.


Yep. And why anyone would wish someone a happy what-they-do-not-celebrate smacks of hatred. It's a shame people use Jesus to score cheap points.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

Merry Merry Christmas Everyone! Who Celebrates Christmas!!


----------



## PoliticalJunky (Dec 7, 2008)

Ravi said:


> Yep. And why anyone would wish someone a happy what-they-do-not-celebrate smacks of hatred. It's a shame people use Jesus to score cheap points.



Especially since it is widely known that Jesus was not born anywhere around the 25th of December. The holiday is a farce and I am a Christian. The only reason we have Christimas as a holiday is because the Christians wanted the Pagans to join their religion and took Yule and made it into Christmas. That is the short easy explanation.


----------



## del (Dec 7, 2008)

wake me up for easter.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

Merry Merry Christmas to All Those Who Celebrate Christmas... Merry Merry Christmas...


----------



## Caligirl (Dec 7, 2008)

Merry Christmas, Willow.  Peace and love during the holy night.


----------



## mattskramer (Dec 7, 2008)

Season's Greetings


----------



## Chris (Dec 7, 2008)

PoliticalJunky said:


> Especially since it is widely known that Jesus was not born anywhere around the 25th of December. The holiday is a farce and I am a Christian. The only reason we have Christimas as a holiday is because the Christians wanted the Pagans to join their religion and took Yule and made it into Christmas. That is the short easy explanation.



Jesus was born on March 19, 4 B.C.

The Chinese astonomers reported a supernova on that day that was visible in the daylight.....the star of Bethlehem.

Roman Records also show that our calender is off by about 4 years.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 7, 2008)

WhiteLion said:


> Sure it would be a waste of your time? cause your not goin to change my mind, nor the minds of more than 150 million other federally forced Christians in the USA, MORON



Thanks for admitting that the facts won't change your mind.  You and your "federally forced christians" (whatever that means) can go on whining about being persecuted when in fact, you're only being asked to follow the same rules that everyone else has to follow.  What makes you think you are so special that the rules don't apply to you?

I've seen it a hundred times before - a whiney christian like White Lion complains that their rights are being taken away but when ALL of the facts that White Lion and his links conveniently omit are seen, it is obvious that there is NO persecution going on.  His crap is nothing but propaganda.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> Blah blah blah Holidays Merry Christmas Happy Channukah  Happy Solstice Happy Kwanzaa  etc etc etc.
> 
> Really.  It's not a war on Christmas.  It's a war on who can play the biggest victims over seasonal  greetings.



That is exactly it.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 7, 2008)

WhiteLion said:


> WTH does a Wal-Mart greeter have to do with the *war on Christmas*the original subject???



The WalMart greeters were part of the original whine-fest by Bill O'Reilly and others - they claimed that WalMart greeters were forbidden from saying Merry Christmas, an assertion that was proven to be 100% false.



> We have Wal_Mart greeters 24-7, 12 months a year, ive never seen a Wal-Mart greeter in court suing(a form of legal war) a Faith based org over the 10 Commandments, Christmas Tree, or Nativity Scene???
> Fact of the matter asswipe all the links i provided you with were all accounts from different sources, in which i happen to know most of are credible, weather or not you preconceive is no real consequence to me.



I proved on the one story I cited that critical details were left out that show that there should have been no complaint.  The family that put up their display were in violation of the homeowner association rules that everyone had to follow.



> Your only purpose here is to confuse and throw off the original subject of the WAR on Christmas. And its not only a War on Christmas but a hell of legal persecution on Christians and Christain organizations, dont come in here with your BS jive talking rationals, you may impress some of these sheeplies here but i know what you really are, your an ANTI-CHRIST type. Its even in your blasphemous spewings, you stinken turd your a waste of good time...Besides anyone that would get offended?? over someone nicely greeting them with Merry Christmas is nut bag period, i mean like hands down nutter...



I'm not an "anti-christ type"  or anti christian or anti-religion.  I am anti-idiot and that is why I have a problem with you.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 7, 2008)

WhiteLion said:


> Your full of the same turd juice as that Anti-Christ YWN666




Wait....let me guess........you were on the Harvard debate team?
Your masterful way of crafting your argument and addressing all of the points is just astounding!!!!


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 7, 2008)

WhiteLion said:


> Dude!!! go hit that crack pipe again



When the argument is lost, slander become the tool of the loser.

Your public shitfit is killing your own credibility, Bub.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

*Merry Merry Christmas to all those who Celebrate Christmas,, Merry Merry Christmas*


----------



## Caligirl (Dec 7, 2008)

And a happy new year.

Good tidings, and peace on earth.


----------



## WhiteLion (Dec 7, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> When the argument is lost, slander become the tool of the loser.
> 
> Your public shitfit is killing your own credibility, Bub.



Black is Black and White is White and 2 + 2 has always equaled 4, there's no room for gray areas nor fence ridin, them days is over, your either a, Holy Ghost filled, Bible reading, Jesus praying Christian or your not, why waste your time?...  I call it like it is, the only public shitfit credibility going here as you say, is your apathetic apostate, anti-christ(YWN666) rhetoric. Oh and im never the loser in Christ Jesus, while i may stumble, i will not fall in Christ.... Bub? THE END


----------



## WhiteLion (Dec 7, 2008)

Chris said:


> Jesus was born on March 19, 4 B.C.
> 
> The Chinese astonomers reported a supernova on that day that was visible in the daylight.....the star of Bethlehem.
> 
> Roman Records also show that our calender is off by about 4 years.


True, its also beleived that supernovas are responsible for planetary bio genesis effect, but so far earth is the only hard evidence of this so called phenomenon... Jesus the Christ star of life, root of David, Ruler of all universal dimensions

Oh! by the way Merry Christmas to all..........


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

PoliticalJunky said:


> Especially since it is widely known that Jesus was not born anywhere around the 25th of December. The holiday is a farce and I am a Christian. The only reason we have Christimas as a holiday is because the Christians wanted the Pagans to join their religion and took Yule and made it into Christmas. That is the short easy explanation.



The Christians took over Solstice--which does occur at this time.  It is the darkest day of the year, and after that day the days begin getting longer and more light.

It makes sense that Christians would use that time symbolically.  Jesus is the light of their faith.

To all Christians, Merry Christmas.  To all pagans, Happy Solstice.  To all African Americans who celebrate Kwanza, Happy Kwanza.  To all Jews, whether religious or not, Happy Hannukah.  To all atheists, Seasons Greetings.

To all Buddhists, every day is a day to appreciate precious human life.


----------



## Caligirl (Dec 7, 2008)

Also a good time to organize a celebration, as seasonal affective disorder makes the long nights particularly depressing and a real reason to make some cheer.


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

If Christians were more expansive and generous in their attitude toward others who are not Christian during this holiday they would generate more respect for the tradition.

Anytime you think something is 'all about you' you narrow down the field of kind regard and miss an opportunity to really advance good will and peace on earth.

Being culturally sensitive while PC--which has taken on a bad connotation--is the most respectful of all.

If you say Happy Holidays or Seasons Greetings when you don't know if someone celebrates Solstice, Christmas, Kwanza or Hannukah it is more neutral and respectful IMO.

As chloe says:  Happy Festivus for the rest of us.

I'll be saying Tashi Deleg to you all in mid-February for Tibetan New Year which has rich significance to me as a Vajrayana Buddhist.


----------



## Steerpike (Dec 7, 2008)

The foolishness runs in both directions.

Christians should realize that if someone says Season's Greetings or Happy Holidays they are generally trying to be respectful of multiple religious viewpoints, not disrepectful toward any of them.  Anyone Christian offended by this is foolish and not behaving in a very Christian manner.

Non-Christians need to realize that when someone tells them Merry Christmas they are expressing a sincere wish in the manner of their own religious tradition and are not intending to be disrespectful to the listener if the listener happens to be non-Christian.   Any non-Christian who is offended by hearing Merry Christmas said to them is a fool.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

Merry Merry Christmas to all who Celebrate Christmas, Merry Merry Christmas!


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 7, 2008)

WhiteLion said:


> Black is Black and White is White and 2 + 2 has always equaled 4, there's no room for gray areas nor fence ridin, them days is over, your either a, Holy Ghost filled, Bible reading, Jesus praying Christian or your not, why waste your time?...  I call it like it is, the only public shitfit credibility going here as you say, is your apathetic apostate, anti-christ(YWN666) rhetoric. Oh and im never the loser in Christ Jesus, while i may stumble, i will not fall in Christ.... Bub? THE END



Coming from someone who can't decide which side of most issues they sit and instead chooses to do nothing but insult people he has deemed 'unworthy' even when they agree with him .... yeah, that's rich.


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> If Christians were more expansive and generous in their attitude toward others who are not Christian during this holiday they would generate more respect for the tradition.
> 
> Anytime you think something is 'all about you' you narrow down the field of kind regard and miss an opportunity to really advance good will and peace on earth.
> 
> ...



Although I have seen many do just that, but not during holidays instead they do it the whole year. So they're not all bad. As I always say, it's the loud mouthed few that are making it hard for the rest of us to see the christians as good.


----------



## Lycurgus (Dec 7, 2008)




----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

as if anybody cares if she sees Christians as good.. roflmao  



Merry Merry Christmas to everyone who celebrates Christmas,, Merry Merry Christmas...


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> as if anybody cares if she sees Christians as good.. roflmao
> 
> 
> 
> Merry Merry Christmas to everyone who celebrates Christmas,, Merry Merry Christmas...



If you don't care then good for you, but don't whine when people don't like christian idols as well. The whole two way street thing again.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> If you don't care then good for you, but don't whine when people don't like christian idols as well. The whole two way street thing again.





I don't whine.. I just say Merry Merry Christmas to all who celebrate Christmass.. Merry Merry Christmas,, the rest of ya celebrate whatever ya want,,


----------



## Annie (Dec 7, 2008)

Given the make up of our country, seems the assumption would be Merry Christmas. However if someone is wearing a Star of David necklace or tie tack, a different wish I would make. Same if one is wearing a headscarf, or a badge that said, "I celebrate the winter solstice." If known, I'd wish them greetings for their celebration, but the assumption that they are celebrating Christmas seems rational.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

Annie said:


> Given the make up of our country, seems the assumption would be Merry Christmas. However if someone is wearing a Star of David necklace or tie tack, a different wish I would make. Same if one is wearing a headscarf, or a badge that said, "I celebrate the winter solstice." If known, I'd wish them greetings for their celebration, but the assumption that they are celebrating Christmas seems rational.





Jewish people don't care one wit that you say Merry Christmas, it's the atheists that are raising the stink a roo...


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

Annie said:


> Given the make up of our country, seems the assumption would be Merry Christmas. However if someone is wearing a Star of David necklace or tie tack, a different wish I would make. Same if one is wearing a headscarf, or a badge that said, "I celebrate the winter solstice." If known, I'd wish them greetings for their celebration, but the assumption that they are celebrating Christmas seems rational.



The 'make' of our country is that we are a plurality.  We should not assume everyone is Christian unless wearing a Star of David or a turban.

Assumptions are not necessarily rational.  They can just be laziness.  They open one up to the possibility of acting like an ass.  Ass U me.


----------



## Annie (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> The 'make' of our country is that we are a plurality.  We should not assume everyone is Christian unless wearing a Star of David or a turban.
> 
> Assumptions open one up to the possibility of acting like an ass.  Ass U me.



Clever but flawed.


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> I don't whine.. I just say Merry Merry Christmas to all who celebrate Christmass.. Merry Merry Christmas,,* the rest of ya celebrate whatever ya want,*,



Don't Christians wish others their specific greetings?


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

Annie said:


> Clever but flawed.



How is it flawed?


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> Jewish people don't care one wit that you say Merry Christmas, it's the atheists that are raising the stink a roo...



How do you know?  Have you polled all Jews?  Have you polled all atheists?

What's your problem with atheists?


----------



## wihosa (Dec 7, 2008)

If you are a Christian who is offended by the inclusion of others at this time of year by the use of the salutation "Happy Holidays", did it ever occur to you that New Year is also a federal holiday and it is only one week after Christmas and so that the term Happy Holidays is an appropriate greeting even among Christians as it could be referring to both Christmas and New Year? No need to say Merry Christnas and Happy New Year, Happy Holidays gets it done.


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 7, 2008)

Annie said:


> Given the make up of our country, seems the assumption would be Merry Christmas. However if someone is wearing a Star of David necklace or tie tack, a different wish I would make. Same if one is wearing a headscarf, or a badge that said, "I celebrate the winter solstice." If known, I'd wish them greetings for their celebration, but the assumption that they are celebrating Christmas seems rational.



Cool ... then you would never offend me, I wear a pentacle to show I am one of the many ... many ... many pagan religions. Although that is a problem in some ways because many pagans celebrate xmas, I honestly don't care really, I just reply with a "hello", the holiday belongs to those who want to celebrate it, those of us who don't (even the atheists) need to chill a bit on greetings sometimes, but I still believe it's more the corporations pandering to someone they see as a minority and not that most actually care that much.


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> How do you know?  Have you polled all Jews?  Have you polled all atheists?
> 
> What's your problem with atheists?



My questions as well. I have seen many practicing Jews scream and cry when someone says Merry Christmas just as much as others.


----------



## Annie (Dec 7, 2008)

I'd wish anyone a 'Happy & safe 4th of July", though there are some that say it's a celebration of the birth of the worst nation on earth.

I'd wish all a "Happy Thanksgiving", though some see it as a celebration of empire. 

There are always those who don't agree with the majority and they do have a right to disagree. I don't have a problem with that sign in Washington state, I think there could have been a better placement, but that's only my opinion.


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

Faced with the annual dilemma of what to do during the Christmas season, American Jews increasingly are creating new annual celebrations that meld Jewish culture with a Christian winter holy day.

From serving dinners at homeless shelters to prowling "MatzahBall" singles events to noshing Chinese food at a Jewish comedy revue, Jews are "proclaiming their identity by creating new cultural traditions" for Christmas, according to Rabbi Joshua Plaut.

Plaut, executive director of the Center for Jewish History in New York, is analyzing the reactions for a doctoral dissertation he hopes to publish as a "non-judgmental" book about how Jews handle Christmas.

"American Jews are part of the majority culture every day of the year, but on Christmas Eve they suddenly become excluded," Plaut says. "They're not invited to the big Christmas party."

The Jewish response is born of two major impulses: the desire to fit in and the need to take a Jewish stand, Plaut says.

http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0.../edition_id/395/format/html/displaystory.html


----------



## wihosa (Dec 7, 2008)

If you meet someone for the first time during the holidays would you wish them Merry Christmas before you knew if that person celebrated Christmas? Wouldn't Happy Holidays be more appropriate? I don't know of anybody who does not celebrate New Year. My wife works with someone from China and even though the Chinese celebrate the Chinese New Year they also celebrate the Gregorian New Year.


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 7, 2008)

Annie said:


> I'd wish anyone a 'Happy & safe 4th of July", though there are some that say it's a celebration of the birth of the worst nation on earth.
> 
> I'd wish all a "Happy Thanksgiving", though some see it as a celebration of empire.
> 
> There are always those who don't agree with the majority and they do have a right to disagree. I don't have a problem with that sign in Washington state, I think there could have been a better placement, but that's only my opinion.



 Brilliant.


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 7, 2008)

wihosa said:


> If you meet someone for the first time during the holidays would you wish them Merry Christmas before you knew if that person celebrated Christmas? Wouldn't Happy Holidays be more appropriate? I don't know of anybody who does not celebrate New Year. My wife works with someone from China and even though the Chinese celebrate the Chinese New Year they also celebrate the Gregorian New Year.



However at the same time, why get upset just because a greeting isn't something you like? If you don't celebrate then why not just answer with a simple "Hello" instead of getting upset at all?


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

Christmas used to be a miserable time of the year for me.  I've lost so many loved ones, and I'm estranged from most of my family.

What my wife and I started to do was attend Buddhist retreats over the Christmas holiday.

We'd be off in a remote area, snowed in, and attending to the present moment.

Now our Buddhist community has a Christmas party.  Many of our sangha are Jews and Buddhists--they participate with us.

It's very gentle and loving.  We play games, sing, eat great food and enjoy each other.


----------



## wihosa (Dec 7, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> However at the same time, why get upset just because a greeting isn't something you like? If you don't celebrate then why not just answer with a simple "Hello" instead of getting upset at all?



I don't remember anybody getting upset but the Christians. They are the ones who are offended that retailers wish to be inclusive by using the term Happy Holidays.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> How do you know?  Have you polled all Jews?  Have you polled all atheists?
> 
> What's your problem with atheists?





Life's experience.. I've never met a Jew who was offended by my "Merry Christmas" greeting.. Now you atheists are a different story altogether.


----------



## Steerpike (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> Life's experience.. I've never met a Jew who was offended by my "Merry Christmas" greeting.. Now you atheists are a different story altogether.



You are wrong Willow Tree.  No reasonable person, whether Christian, Jewish, OR atheist, gets upset over this sort of thing.  There are a very few loud people in each group who seem to let it bother them.


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 7, 2008)

wihosa said:


> I don't remember anybody getting upset but the Christians. They are the ones who are offended that retailers wish to be inclusive by using the term Happy Holidays.



Never said it didn't go both ways. To me this whole issue is rather stupid, so Idefend both sides to have the right to say what they want, but forcing them to say it one wy or another is wrong wither way.


----------



## mattskramer (Dec 7, 2008)

Safe and Sweet

May whatever religious beliefs or disbeliefs you have concerning life and death, and whatever thoughts you have on the possibilities of life after death give you peace, tranquility and happiness this time of year and all year long?

Could that statement offend anyone?  If so, please explain.


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 7, 2008)

mattskramer said:


> Safe and Sweet
> 
> May whatever religious beliefs or disbeliefs you have concerning life and death, and whatever thoughts you have on the possibilities of life after death give you peace, tranquility and happiness this time of year and all year long?
> 
> Could that statement offend anyone?  If so, please explain.



If it does offend someone then they have issues, not the person saying it.


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> Life's experience.. I've never met a Jew who was offended by my "Merry Christmas" greeting.. Now you atheists are a different story altogether.



I'm not offended if someone says Merry Christmas to me.  I happen to be a Buddhist by the way.

"In his 1958 study of second-generation immigrant Reform Jews on Chicago's South Side, clinical psychologist and rabbi Milton Matz revealed that in the second generation parents often agreed that a Jewish child might need a Christmas tree to "hyphenate the contradiction between his Americanism and his Jewish ethnicism." Matz's study also demonstrated that members of the third generation were increasingly likely to recognize the inherent contradiction in adopting the religious symbols of another group; they would eventually give up the Christmas tree and find other ways of expressing their acculturation into American society. 



Sure enough, in a 1993 study Stanford religious studies professor Arnold M. Eisen validated Matz's findings, demonstrating that the majority of American Jews no longer had Christmas trees. In 82 percent of entirely Jewish households, a Christmas tree had never been displayed. So too, sociologist Marshall Sklare's research in the 1950s and '60s on second- and third-generation Jews established that Hanukkah--formerly a "minor" Jewish holiday--had gained in importance when it became the Jewish alternative for Christmas. "Instead of alienating the Jews from general culture," wrote Sklare, "Hanukkah helps to situate him as a participant in that culture. Hanukkah, in short, becomes for some the Jewish Christmas." Ironically, by elevating Hanukkah as a Jewish alternative to Christmas, American Jews had invented their own holiday tradition through a Christmas mirror."

My Jewish Learning: Jews & Christmas


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> Life's experience.. I've never met a Jew who was offended by my "Merry Christmas" greeting.. *Now you atheists are a different *story altogether.



Are you angry with atheists or just me?


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

Steerpike said:


> You are wrong Willow Tree.  No reasonable person, whether Christian, Jewish, OR atheist, gets upset over this sort of thing.  There are a very few loud people in each group who seem to let it bother them.





I'm just saying..  I've never met a Jew who was offended.. I say "Merry Christmas,, the Jews say in return and "Happy Hanunaka" and we smile at each other warmly.. Until athiests I've never met people who wanted to cut Christ out of Christmas.. Jews, know who Christ was, they just don't recognize him as the messiah.. but they still understand a celebration of his birth.. Ever been to Jerusalem?


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> Are you angry with atheists or just me?




I'n not "angry" with anybody,,


----------



## Steerpike (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> I'm just saying..  I've never met a Jew who was offended.. I say "Merry Christmas,, the Jews say in return and "Happy Hanunaka" and we smile at each other warmly.. Until athiests I've never met people who wanted to cut Christ out of Christmas.. Jews, know who Christ was, they just don't recognize him as the messiah.. but they still understand a celebration of his birth.. Ever been to Jerusalem?



I've met people from all three of those groups who were offended in one way or another by the greeting of another religion, etc. Luckily they are few and far between.


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> I'm just saying..  I've never met a Jew who was offended.. I say "Merry Christmas,, the Jews say in return and "Happy Hanunaka" and we smile at each other warmly.. Until athiests I've never met people who wanted to cut Christ out of Christmas.. Jews, know who Christ was, they just don't recognize him as the messiah.. but they still understand a celebration of his birth.. Ever been to Jerusalem?



I'm not Jewish.  I have never been to Jerusalem.  I disagree that atheists want to cut Christ out of Christmas.  Consider Christmas from their point of view if you can.

I'm Buddhist.  I respect and revere Christ as a role model for love and compassion.  

IMO.  Commercialism is not an invention of atheists.  If anything has taken Christ out of Christmas its capitalism.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> However at the same time, why get upset just because a greeting isn't something you like? If you don't celebrate then why not just answer with a simple "Hello" instead of getting upset at all?






Now you're getting it,, no reasnon whatsoever that you should be offended by "Merry Christmas" so what's all the arguing about doyathink?


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> I'n not "angry" with anybody,,



Well, you seem to have a charge about atheists.  You responded to a post of mine by saying 'you atheists',


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

Steerpike said:


> I've met people from all three of those groups who were offended in one way or another by the greeting of another religion, etc. Luckily they are few and far between.





yep! I tend to agree with you,, those are people who just look for something to be offended about, have you noticed how that happens a lot lately?


----------



## Steerpike (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> yep! I tend to agree with you,, those are people who just look for something to be offended about, have you noticed how that happens a lot lately?



Well, it is magnified on the internet forum. To some extent, places like this self-select for people who have an axe to grind.


----------



## wihosa (Dec 7, 2008)

mattskramer said:


> Safe and Sweet
> 
> May whatever religious beliefs or disbeliefs you have concerning life and death, and whatever thoughts you have on the possibilities of life after death give you peace, tranquility and happiness this time of year and all year long?
> 
> Could that statement offend anyone?  If so, please explain.



No one could be offended by that statement but it would sure be a mouthful as a greeting.


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> yep! I tend to agree with you,, those are people who just look for something to be offended about, have you noticed how that happens a lot lately?



Aren't you in effect saying that you are offended that atheists are offended?  Why not consider the atheists point of view?


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> I'm not Jewish.  I have never been to Jerusalem.  I disagree that atheists want to cut Christ out of Christmas.  Consider Christmas from their point of view if you can.
> 
> I'm Buddhist.  I respect and revere Christ as a role model for love and compassion.
> 
> IMO.  Commercialism is not an invention of atheists.  If anything has taken Christ out of Christmas its capitalism.




I said it once, twice three or four times.. I am happy to say Merry Christmas, and they should be happy to say Happy Holidays.. butttttttttt, I am not going to stop saying Merry Christmas to please themm... capiche.. I'm not Jewish either.. but I have been to Jerusalem,, three of the world's biggest religions all reside in the Holy City of Jerusalem,, Jews, Christians and Muslims.. It's a very worthwhile trip..


----------



## Annie (Dec 7, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> However at the same time, why get upset just because a greeting isn't something you like? If you don't celebrate then why not just answer with a simple "Hello" instead of getting upset at all?



Indeed. If I was shopping at a local Skokie, (significantly Jewish suburb),  store and the cashier wished me 'Happy Hanukah', I'd respond, "To you too!" Doesn't seem that difficult to me.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> I'm not Jewish.  I have never been to Jerusalem.  I disagree that atheists want to cut Christ out of Christmas.  Consider Christmas from their point of view if you can.
> 
> I'm Buddhist.  I respect and revere Christ as a role model for love and compassion.
> 
> ...


----------



## wihosa (Dec 7, 2008)

There is no war on Christmas, it's just a phony issue drummed up by the likes of Bill O'Reilly in an attempt to divide us.


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> I said it once, twice three or four times.. I am happy to say Merry Christmas, and they should be happy to say Happy Holidays.. butttttttttt, I am not going to stop saying Merry Christmas to please themm... capiche.. I'm not Jewish either.. but I have been to Jerusalem,, three of the world's biggest religions all reside in the Holy City of Jerusalem,, Jews, Christians and Muslims.. It's a very worthwhile trip..


I see.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> Aren't you in effect saying that you are offended that atheists are offended?  Why not consider the atheists point of view?



once twice thrice, quatro senco I am happy to say Merry Christmas and let them be happy to say Happy Holidays..


----------



## wihosa (Dec 7, 2008)

My brother owns a record store (yes there are a couple of them left) in a predominately Jewish neighborhood, is it wrong that he has Happy Holidays in his windows?


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

wihosa said:


> There is no war on Christmas, it's just a phony issue drummed up by the likes of Bill O'Reilly in an attempt to divide us.



Yup.  Lets get everyone all *riled* up, O' Reilly.  Let's invent a culture war.


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> I'm just saying..  I've never met a Jew who was offended.. I say "Merry Christmas,, the Jews say in return and "Happy Hanunaka" and we smile at each other warmly.. Until athiests I've never met people who wanted to cut Christ out of Christmas.. Jews, know who Christ was, they just don't recognize him as the messiah.. but they still understand a celebration of his birth.. Ever been to Jerusalem?



Oooh ... sometimes I feel funny and reply "Bah! Humbug," myself just for the reaction. But you are wrong, the numbers on all sides are about the same. I see  LOT of christians get offended when I use my playful humbug greeting and that baffles me.


----------



## mattskramer (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> Aren't you in effect saying that you are offended that atheists are offended?



This is getting silly.  There is no law prohibiting people from getting offended.  Im offended that you are offended that he was offended that I was offended.  Im sorry to but in.  I hope that you are not offended, but this is getting to be downright funny. Happy Christmas, or Hanukkah, or Kwanzaa, or Festivus or some combination thereof.


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> once twice thrice, quatro senco I am happy to say Merry Christmas and let them be happy to say Happy Holidays..



I don't consider you shoving Merry Christmas down an *atheists *throat when it would be respectful to him or her to say Happy Holidays very Christian practice.  JMO.

It's aggressive.


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 7, 2008)

wihosa said:


> There is no war on Christmas, it's just a phony issue drummed up by the likes of Bill O'Reilly in an attempt to divide us.



While you are correct there  is no real war on xmas, O'Rielly didn't start the crap he just mislabeled it. There is no conspiracy or anything, it's just been blown so far out of proportion that the two primary sides of it are going overboard.


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

wihosa said:


> My brother owns a record store (yes there are a couple of them left) in a predominately Jewish neighborhood, is it wrong that he has Happy Holidays in his windows?



I don't know.  Maybe it would offend Willow Tree.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> Yup.  Lets get everyone all *riled* up, O' Reilly.  Let's invent a culture war.





yes, that's the ticket,, blame it all on O'Reilly,, if it's not Boooosh it's O'Reilly!


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> Oooh ... sometimes I feel funny and reply "Bah! Humbug," myself just for the reaction. But you are wrong, the numbers on all sides are about the same. I see  LOT of christians get offended when I use my playful humbug greeting and that baffles me.





you are probably one of those who are easily baffled!


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> you are probably one of those who are easily baffled!



Very easily baffled when humans act less intelligent than animals.


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> yes, that's the ticket,, blame it all on O'Reilly,, if it's not Boooosh it's O'Reilly!



Are you an O'Reilly fan?


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> I don't consider you shoving Merry Christmas down an *atheists *throat when it would be respectful to them to say Happy Holidays very Christian practice.  JMO.
> 
> It's aggressive.




well, if they will wear a tee shirt saying I'm an atheist I promise I will not tell them Merry Christmas.. other wise I'm going to say Merry Christmas and hope they are adult enough to understand I'm not trying to "shove" anything down their throats,, Christians don't cause disease or illness, you will recover from a chance encounter with a Christian.. so relax a little


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> well, if they will wear a tee shirt saying I'm an atheist I promise I will not tell them Merry Christmas.. other wise I'm going to say Merry Christmas and hope they are adult enough to understand I'm not trying to "shove" anything down their throats,, *Christians don't cause disease or illness,* you will recover from a chance encounter with a Christian.. so relax a little




Who does cause disease?  

I think expecting to be dominant over all other religious groups when you live in a plurality is a kind of disease.


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

It is claimed that use of Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas excludes Christmas and is anti-Christian. This is nonsense. People use Happy Holidays to cover all holidays during the season, including Christmas. *Christians who get upset over this aren&#8217;t seeking tolerance or respect, they are seeking privilege and status*. They want others to make them feel better about themselves by treating Christianity as special and more important than other religions.

Why Not Just Say Merry Christmas?: 

If you say Merry Christmas, you assume that the other person celebrates Christmas &#8212; often a fair bet, but not as guaranteed as it once was. As the religious pluralism of America increases, so must the sensitivity of its citizens. The fewer traditional Christians there are around, the less people can assume that everyone is celebrating the usual Christian holidays and doing the usual Christian things. It&#8217;s impolite to make assumptions.

Many Christians complain that Christmas is a religious holiday, but is treated in an inappropriately secular way in contemporary America. This has some merit, but it&#8217;s not the result of any conspiracy. Christians have been transforming it into a secular holiday by moving it out of churches and into the public, secular sphere. Pagan elements of Christmas have come to dominate its public celebration and Christian meaning has been lost.

Some are turning the phrase Merry Christmas into a fetish, something done for its own sake instead of using it as a sincere greeting. It&#8217;s an aggressive statement about one&#8217;s own identity that is thrown in the face of others as a challenge or even an insult. It&#8217;s not about defending religious meaning in Christmas, but defending a religious identity and a set of traditional privileges.


Christmas Wars & Conspiracies: Political, Social, Religious Conflicts over the Meaning of the Christmas Season


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> Who does cause disease?
> 
> I think expecting to be dominant over all other religious groups when you live in a plurality is a kind of disease.



However again, christmas isn't even their holiday, they just added a couple parts that are theirs. At most christmas can be called an Agnostic holiday, at worst pagan (since that's it origins). To clarify, I hated xmas for a long time after I broke free from christians, but it was actually a christian preacher who told me to look up the origins and see that even my own religious ideals have a holiday on that day anyway. After digging, found out almost all of it is pagan. Knowledge can change your perspective regardless of it's source, but from one noon-christian to another, it's not really a christian holiday. So it doesn't actually enforce a dominance of anything.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> Who does cause disease?
> 
> I think expecting to be dominant over all other religious groups when you live in a plurality is a kind of disease.





you lost this argument a long long time ago cause in essence what you are saying is that we should avoid all things Christian lest they offend someone,, and at the same time Christians should be very tolerant and inclusive of everyone else, all feelings in this matter should be considered except the Christians feelings.  These celebrations of Christmas should exclude Christians.. You guys are not fooling anbody with your not so subtle nuances!   To date I haven't heard a single utterance in protest of Happy Hanauka or Rhamadan or Happy winter time.. 


anyhoooo Have a very Merry Merry Christmas...btw I have a sister in law who practices Buddhism.. she dosen't have a problem with Merry Christmas, she even rubs shoulders and elbows with her Christian relatives and we don't make her sick or shuddery..


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 7, 2008)

Okay, now it's just going in circles. Point of the matter is that both sides are guilty of the same thing in this whole debate, but not all of both sides just some. Also a majority of the "happy holidays" is really just corporate pandering to try to increase sales and isn't even out of respect for anyone.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> Okay, now it's just going in circles. Point of the matter is that both sides are guilty of the same thing in this whole debate, but not all of both sides just some. Also a majority of the "happy holidays" is really just corporate pandering to try to increase sales and isn't even out of respect for anyone.



no it's not going in circles,, you atheists haven't deviated from yer message.

this holiday does not belong to christians

christians are selfish

christians are exclusive of others feelings


bla bla bla bla bla bla 



I'm just not buying it,, and it's making you nuts!


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> you lost this argument a long long time ago cause in essence what you are saying is that we should avoid all things Christian lest they offend someone,, and at the same time Christians should be very tolerant and inclusive of everyone else, all feelings in this matter should be considered except the Christians feelings.  These celebrations of Christmas should exclude Christians.. You guys are not fooling anbody with your not so subtle nuances!   To date I haven't heard a single utterance in protest of Happy Hanauka or Rhamadan or Happy winter time..
> 
> 
> anyhoooo Have a very Merry Merry Christmas...btw I have a sister in law who practices Buddhism.. she dosen't have a problem with Merry Christmas, she even rubs shoulders and elbows with her and we don't make her sick or shuddery..



Saying Happy Holidays when in public is not shunning all things Christian.  Go to Church and be a Christian.  Show some spaciousness with others and only say Merry Christmas to people you already know are Christian.

I have no problem saying Merry Christmas to you.  I personally have no problem with people saying Merry Christmas to me.  I also have no problem saying Happy Holidays.  

I never said Christians make me sick.  You are the one who said that.  Perhaps, what makes YOU sick is arguing about Christmas.  Isn't Christmas a holy day?  Does Christ care if you say Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas out in public?

Wouldn't Christ want you to treat others as kindly and respectfully as you wish to be treated?

My dear, it sounds like YOU are the one with the charge about the greeting.


----------



## wihosa (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> yes, that's the ticket,, blame it all on O'Reilly,, if it's not Boooosh it's O'Reilly!



He's the one beating the drum on this. No one else is getting upset about the use of "Happy Holidays". I can remember Happy Holidays from my childhood in the sixty's. This is a phony issue.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> Saying Happy Holidays when in public is not shunning all things Christian.  Go to Church and be a Christian.  Show some spaciousness with others and only say Merry Christmas to people you already know are Christian.
> 
> I have no problem saying Merry Christmas to you.  I personally have no problem with people saying Merry Christmas to me.  I also have no problem saying Happy Holidays.
> 
> ...





Your message is,,,, "Do Not Say Merry Christmas"""" You May Offend Someone""""""   a truly sad person would be offended by such a warm friendly greeting... soooo soooo sad..


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> no it's not going in circles,, you atheists haven't deviated from yer message.
> 
> this holiday does not belong to christians
> 
> ...



What I think is nuts is not having the common decency when out in public to presume that people aren't Christians and to be sensitive when you use the greeting.

What's wrong with increasing sensitivity to others?


If I knew you and saw you in the street I would wish you a Merry Christmas with no problem.  What would you say to me?


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

wihosa said:


> He's the one beating the drum on this. No one else is getting upset about the use of "Happy Holidays". I can remember Happy Holidays from my childhood in the sixty's. This is a phony issue.





i double dog dare ya to google war on Christmas,, find all the little towns and big cities that are fighting this culture war,, then come right back here with yer disingenious it's O'reilly's fault and I will


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> Your message is,,,, "Do Not Say Merry Christmas"""" You May Offend Someone""""""   a truly sad person would be offended by such a warm friendly greeting... soooo soooo sad..



You are the one who said that YOU would not drop Merry Christmas and do not care if you are offending atheists.

How 'warm and friendly' is that?


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> What I think is nuts is not having the common decency when out in public to presume that people aren't Christians and to be sensitive when you use the greeting.
> 
> What's wrong with increasing sensitivity to others?
> 
> ...





I would say Merry Christmas back and you would probably be the sad bitter little person who was offended at my political incorrectness! and I would feel sorry for you.. there is nothing evil or unfriendly about Merry Christmas,, it isn't and never was meant to offend anybody it's sad that some people are so rigid and bitter that they are offended by Christians..


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> i double dog dare ya to google war on Christmas,, find all the little towns and big cities that are fighting this culture war,, then come right back here with yer disingenious it's O'reilly's fault and I will



You are a fan of O'Reilly.  He stoke divisiveness and you agree with him.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> You are the one who said that YOU would not drop Merry Christmas and do not care if you are offending atheists.
> 
> How 'warm and friendly' is that?




so here's the million dollar question,, if I say Merry Christmas and it offends atheists,, then why if they say Happy Holiday and it offends me do they get the sympathy... are my feelings just as important as theirs are??? or not???


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> I would say Merry Christmas back and you would probably be the sad bitter little person who was offended at my political incorrectness! and I would feel sorry for you.. there is nothing evil or unfriendly about Merry Christmas,, it isn't and never was meant to offend anybody it's sad that some people are so rigid and bitter that they are offended by Christians..



I see.  You are in effect saying that the greeting 'Merry Christmas' means more to you than respectful human relationships with others.

That is an aggressive, and not warm,  Christmas greeting that I think Christ himself would disapprove of.


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> no it's not going in circles,, you atheists haven't deviated from yer message.
> 
> this holiday does not belong to christians
> 
> ...



LOL ... I can't stop laughing at this one ... it's just such a funny reply. You do realize that I am not atheist ... right? You also realize that I was not choosing sides in any of this, right? You are one of the loud mouths that make it so easy for people to hate christians. Look up the history for once, and no, it's not driving me nuts if you don't believe, but I am finding it funny.


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> so here's the million dollar question,, if I say Merry Christmas and it offends atheists,, then why if they say Happy Holiday and it offends me do they get the sympathy... are my feelings just as important as theirs are??? or not???



Not on this topic, at least not anymore. You ignore all other sides who have actually agreed with you, and even attempted to insult us just because we don't ascribe to you particular flavor of ideals, so you really can't expect anyone TO care.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> You are a fan of O'Reilly.  He stoke divisiveness and you agree with him.





methinks you are getting a little bit angry cause I won't fall in line and march in lock step to yer anti Christian message.. poor person.. do the challenge or not???


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> so here's the million dollar question,, if I say Merry Christmas and it offends atheists,, then why if they say Happy Holiday and it offends me do they get the sympathy... are my feelings just as important as theirs are??? or not???



Look at your own double standard.  I told you that I would have NO problems wishing you a Merry Christmas and I asked you, knowing that I am Buddhist, what you would say to me?

What you said is that you would say Merry Christmas to me and if I was offended, tough.  Why would it not occur to you to say 'enjoy the winter holidays"?

Why would my feelings be none of your concern?  

I would be *very happy *with Peace on Earth and Goodwill to All.

Isn't that a Christmas sentiment?

Notice how angry you are?  Why not try something that wishes peace and well being to all, inclusively?


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> I see.  You are in effect saying that the greeting 'Merry Christmas' means more to you than respectful human relationships with others.
> 
> That is an aggressive, and not warm,  Christmas greeting that I think Christ himself would disapprove of.





so if you refuse me my Merry Christmas you are being warm and respectful of my humaness??? O'Rally?


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> LOL ... I can't stop laughing at this one ... it's just such a funny reply. You do realize that I am not atheist ... right? You also realize that I was not choosing sides in any of this, right? You are one of the loud mouths that make it so easy for people to hate christians. Look up the history for once, and no, it's not driving me nuts if you don't believe, but I am finding it funny.



you have never asked me my beliefs either have you??? and I think I've already told you no one gives a hoot that you hate Christians..


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> Not on this topic, at least not anymore. You ignore all other sides who have actually agreed with you, and even attempted to insult us just because we don't ascribe to you particular flavor of ideals, so you really can't expect anyone TO care.





see, I knew that,,, it's always been about not giving a hoot what a Christian wants.. that is supposed to make you guys all warm and inclusive innit???


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> Look at your own double standard.  I told you that I would have NO problems wishing you a Merry Christmas and I asked you, knowing that I am Buddhist, what you would say to me?
> 
> What you said is that you would say Merry Christmas to me and if I was offended, tough.  Why would it not occur to you to say 'enjoy the winter holidays"?
> 
> ...





why would a sane person be offended by the very gentle well meaning "Merry Christmas"? I think you are very combative.


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> so if you refuse me my Merry Christmas you are being warm and respectful of my humaness??? O'Rally?


I said 'Merry Christmas' to you.  Now, try saying, 'I wish you Peace and Love'  to me.   Notice how it feels.


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> see, I knew that,,, it's always been about not giving a hoot what a Christian wants.. that is supposed to make you guys all warm and inclusive innit???



*eye roll* Blinders are glued to your head.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> *eye roll* Blinders are glued to your head.





well am I to believe what you just said or not???? I believe you said a Christians feelings didn't count anymore.. but yet you expect Christians to be sensitive to your feelings, now talk about yer double standards.


----------



## Ravi (Dec 7, 2008)

IMO, Ann Coulter addressed this subject to a tee when she claimed that wishing liberals a Merry Christmas was like telling them fuck you.

And that is exactly what I hear now when people like Willow say Merry Christmas to people that she has no clue as to their beliefs.


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

Merry Christmas Willow Tree.  I wish you peace and love.


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

Ravi said:


> IMO, Ann Coulter addressed this subject to a tee when she claimed that wishing liberals a Merry Christmas was like telling them fuck you.
> 
> And that is exactly what I hear now when people like Willow say Merry Christmas to people that she has no clue as to their beliefs.




Ravi--

I am trying to teach Willow how to be respectful to non-Christians and she is in effect saying 'fuck you' to me.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> Look at your own double standard.  I told you that I would have NO problems wishing you a Merry Christmas and I asked you, knowing that I am Buddhist, what you would say to me?
> 
> What you said is that you would say Merry Christmas to me and if I was offended, tough.  Why would it not occur to you to say 'enjoy the winter holidays"?  *cause I'm celebrating Christmas*
> 
> ...


 *Does it make you feel all warm and fuzzy to picture me as angry?? you keep mentioning it as if yer life depends on it.. That is sad.. *





I'm not angry.. If my feelings don't matter, then Your's don't matter and youse can all just sit around and be offended. Me" I'm having a Merry Christmas.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> Ravi--
> 
> I am trying to teach Willow how to be respectful to non-Christians and she is in effect saying 'fuck you' to me.





no,, you're being disrespectful to Christians.. be honest.


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> *Does it make you feel all warm and fuzzy to picture me as angry?? you keep mentioning it as if yer life depends on it.. That is sad.. *
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Merry Christmas Willow Tree.

May you have a peaceful and loving time.  I am complete accept that you don't care if you offend me.


----------



## Ravi (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> Ravi--
> 
> I am trying to teach Willow how to be respectful to non-Christians and she is in effect saying 'fuck you' to me.


I know that, Sky. I knew that about 40 pages ago.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> Merry Christmas Willow Tree.  I wish you peace and love.





you don't radiate the teachings of the DaliLama,, I just gotta say that.. keep studying.


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> well am I to believe what you just said or not???? I believe you said a Christians feelings didn't count anymore.. but yet you expect Christians to be sensitive to your feelings, now talk about yer double standards.



Um, no, I said yours because of such posts as this. Many of us non-christians (whom you can't seem to even get over your own hatred enough to read all the posts) were actually defending your right to say what you wanted, but then you attempt to insult us and .... well now I am repeating myself and I hate doing that too often. Reread all the posts, maybe then you won't act like such a hatemonger.


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

Merry Christmas Willow Tree.  I wish you peace and love.

I completely accept that you hate me.


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> you don't radiate the teachings of the DaliLama,, I just gotta say that.. keep studying.



*rae* And you complain about non-christians not knowing anything about your beliefs ... this is just stupidity. It is you who needs to read on Bhuddism more, I don't know that much about them but even I know that you are so wrong.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

poor sad little atheists,, they expect Christians to respect their little feelings but they offer no respect in return,, why is it that they mirror the liberal philosopy in that respect?? doyathink??? 




Merry Merry Christmas to all who Celebrate Christmas..


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> poor sad little atheists,, they expect Christians to respect their little feelings but they offer no respect in return,, why is it that they mirror the liberal philosopy in that respect?? doyathink???
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Merry Christmas WillowTree--


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> *rae* And you complain about non-christians not knowing anything about your beliefs ... this is just stupidity. It is you who needs to read on Bhuddism more, I don't know that much about them but even I know that you are so wrong.






then you don't know, you don't know, you don't know, you don't know, you don't know.. the buddhists I know don't display the animosity I've witnessed from SkyDancer,, she's not there yet..


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> poor sad little atheists,, they expect Christians to respect their little feelings but they offer no respect in return,, why is it that they mirror the liberal philosopy in that respect?? doyathink???
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*smirk* Bah! Humbug.


----------



## William Joyce (Dec 7, 2008)

The War on Christmas is just a small part of the bigger war you need to be focusing on:


*The War on Whites.*


Nobody would give a crap if only Hispanics celebrated the birth of Jesus.  But the Jews who run our society associate Christianity with the fevered religion of their white European tormentors.  Chirping "Merry Christmas" is just a shade off barking "Heil Hitler."  So, naturally, they want to get rid of it.


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> no,, you're being disrespectful to Christians.. be honest.




I am wishing you a Merry Christmas, sincerely.  How is that disrespectful?  I asked you what you would say to me and your answer was I would wish you Merry Christmas and I don't care if its offensive to you.

I suggested you wish me a peaceful and loving season.  You are unwilling to do so.  Who is being disrespectful, you or me?


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> *smirk* Bah! Humbug.





Happy Bah Humbug,, kittiekat


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 7, 2008)

William Joyce said:


> The War on Christmas is just a small part of the bigger war you need to be focusing on:
> 
> 
> *The War on Whites.*
> ...



*points up* Willow, these are the people you should really be working on. They make your side look bad to even us who take neither side.


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> Happy Bah Humbug,, kittiekat



Merry Xmas.


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> then you don't know, you don't know, you don't know, you don't know, you don't know.. the buddhists I know don't display the animosity I've witnessed from SkyDancer,, she's not there yet..



Merry Christmas WillowTree--

I wish you peace on earth and goodwill to all.


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> then you don't know, you don't know, you don't know, you don't know, you don't know.. the buddhists I know don't display the animosity I've witnessed from SkyDancer,, she's not there yet..



Never has SkyDancer done such a thing. Many of his posts have actually defended you more than you want, is that why you are angry? Because us "non-believers" are defending you instead of behaving how you expected?

Happy Christmas.


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> you don't radiate the teachings of the DaliLama,, I just gotta say that.. keep studying.



You are absolutely right.  I'm no Dalai Lama.

Thank you for encouraging me as a Buddhist.   I will keep practicing.


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

It is a historical fact that many of the symbols western societies have come to associate with Christmas were taken from non-christian traditions that pre-date the birth of Jesus. Specifically, symbols such as decorated trees, mistletoe, holly wreaths and yule logs all have non-Christian origins. Therefore, substituting the term "Christmas" with the term "Holiday" is more accurate for those who celebrate the secular aspects of this holiday. From a historical context, "Christmas" only recently adopted these long-standing winter traditions into its own identity. Therefore, many non-Christians argue that the most accurate description of this season is the "holiday" season, not the "Christmas" season (a label which only describes the religious celebration of Christ's birth).
Wikipedia:Contact us - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Annie (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> It is a historical fact that many of the symbols western societies have come to associate with Christmas were taken from non-christian traditions that pre-date the birth of Jesus. Specifically, symbols such as decorated trees, mistletoe, holly wreaths and yule logs all have non-Christian origins. Therefore, substituting the term "Christmas" with the term "Holiday" is more accurate for those who celebrate the secular aspects of this holiday. From a historical context, "Christmas" only recently adopted these long-standing winter traditions into its own identity. Therefore, many non-Christians argue that the most accurate description of this season is the "holiday" season, not the "Christmas" season (a label which only describes the religious celebration of Christ's birth).
> Wikipedia:Contact us - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Your point? I think nearly everyone agrees with this, including the time of year.


----------



## Ravi (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> poor sad little atheists,, they expect Christians to respect their little feelings but they offer no respect in return,, why is it that they mirror the liberal philosopy in that respect?? doyathink???
> 
> 
> 
> ...


At least you are trainable.



Happy Ramadan! Methinks it is also that time of year.

You know what I find funny? Most illegal immigrants are more polite that your average white Christian. They never attempt to offend me by speaking spanish to me unless they first find out if I speak it.


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

Annie said:


> Your point? I think nearly everyone agrees with this, including the time of year.


This is the point:


Therefore, many non-Christians argue that the most accurate description of this season is the *"holiday" season, not the "Christmas" season*


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 7, 2008)

Annie said:


> Your point? I think nearly everyone agrees with this, including the time of year.



There are still some who for some reason do not want to admit it, on both sides really. SkyDancer was replying to Willow this particular time.

I would like to add as a quick side note to Willow, you do realize that the Willow Tree has great significance to many pagan religions, a few even consider it a god.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> Never has SkyDancer done such a thing. Many of his posts have actually defended you more than you want, is that why you are angry? Because us "non-believers" are defending you instead of behaving how you expected?
> 
> Happy Christmas.





I don't know why youse guys insist on my being angry,, you need to recognize yer own anger,,, some day maybe you will reach that "state of happiness" but as long as you let Merry Christmas and Christians but a tweak in yer beak it ain't never gonna happen.. live and let live..


----------



## Annie (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> This is the point:
> 
> 
> Therefore, many non-Christians argue that the most accurate description of this season is the *"holiday" season, not the "Christmas" season*



Contrary, Christians chose to usurp the time of year and the symbols.  This is a predominately Christian country, so the assumption of 'Merry Christmas' with no contrary points is fair.


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 7, 2008)

Ravi said:


> At least you are trainable.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That is an odd observation, but I find that it's true of most American raised regardless of skin color or religion. When I was working in Tucson so long ago there were a lot of Mexican immigrants, they were the best workers and I never had to deal with a complaint about them. They were legal, but suspect your observation probably fits as well.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> It is a historical fact that many of the symbols western societies have come to associate with Christmas were taken from non-christian traditions that pre-date the birth of Jesus. Specifically, symbols such as decorated trees, mistletoe, holly wreaths and yule logs all have non-Christian origins. Therefore, substituting the term "Christmas" with the term "Holiday" is more accurate for those who celebrate the secular aspects of this holiday. From a historical context, "Christmas" only recently adopted these long-standing winter traditions into its own identity. Therefore, many non-Christians argue that the most accurate description of this season is the "holiday" season, not the "Christmas" season (a label which only describes the religious celebration of Christ's birth).
> Wikipedia:Contact us - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia





well so what??? if the clebration of Christmas makes Christians happy who are you to deny them that??? not a buddhist surely! Haapiness is what Buddhism is all about.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

Ravi said:


> At least you are trainable.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





so? is it all about you???


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> This is the point:
> 
> 
> Therefore, many non-Christians argue that the most accurate description of this season is the *"holiday" season, not the "Christmas" season*





but Christians celebrat Christmas,, it's what makes them Happy


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> I don't know why youse guys insist on my being angry,, you need to recognize yer own anger,,, some day maybe you will reach that "state of happiness" but as long as you let Merry Christmas and Christians but a tweak in yer beak it ain't never gonna happen.. live and let live..



you are angry because you are unwilling to recognize facts and even gracefully accept any niceness from the 'non-christians' who have clearly taken your side to an extent, just because we also say it's fair for those who don't celebrate should be allowed to say something different. As for the rest of your post, clearly you still have not read one thing we have posted.


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> so? is it all about you???



Again, making enemies from those who are not attacking you, this is not a good way to live and let live.


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

Annie said:


> Contrary, Christians chose to usurp the time of year and the symbols.  This is a predominately Christian country, so the assumption of 'Merry Christmas' with no contrary points is fair.



Let me ask you this.  You know I am a Buddhist.  I wish you a Merry Christmas.  What do you wish for me?


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> you are angry because you are unwilling to recognize facts and even gracefully accept any niceness from the 'non-christians' who have clearly taken your side to an extent, just because we also say it's fair for those who don't celebrate should be allowed to say something different. As for the rest of your post, clearly you still have not read one thing we have posted.



 well see? that's where yer train has run off the tracks,, go back, go back, go back go back and you will see where I've said repeatedly that I'm fine with me saying "Merry Christmas and you saying "Happy Holiday" so I don't know why you persist with the anger>>>


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> but Christians celebrat Christmas,, it's what makes them Happy



How many times have I wished you Merry Christmas and it still doesn't make you happy?

Do you care if others are happy?  Do only Christians matter in America?


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> Again, making enemies from those who are not attacking you, this is not a good way to live and let live.




I don't make you do anything,, you are only my enemy if you choose to be! That's a conscious choice an individual makes,,


----------



## Annie (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> Let me ask you this.  You know I am a Buddhist.  I wish you a Merry Christmas.  What do you wish for me?



I know you are a Buddhist? Peace and contentment. You, me? I think you have some work to do, you are very judgmental and not really objective.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> Let me ask you this.  You know I am a Buddhist.  I wish you a Merry Christmas.  What do you wish for me?



we wish you a perfect state of happiness!


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> Again, making enemies from those who are not attacking you, this is not a good way to live and let live.



Willow would probably love to shove a Christmas tree up my ass--sideways.


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> well see? that's where yer train has run off the tracks,, go back, go back, go back go back and you will see where I've said repeatedly that I'm fine with me saying "Merry Christmas and you saying "Happy Holiday" so I don't know why you persist with the anger>>>



No, you go back and explain then why you decided to suddenly go into a tirade of insults toward me and SkyDancer when we have always agreed with you?


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> How many times have I wished you Merry Christmas and it still doesn't make you happy?
> 
> Do you care if others are happy?  Do only Christians matter in America?




who said nobody else matters?? certainly not I.


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

Annie said:


> I know you are a Buddhist? Peace and contentment. You, me? I think you have some work to do, you are very judgmental and not really objective.




Thank you for wishing me peace and contentment.  Same to you.


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> who said nobody else matters?? certainly not I.



Actions speak louder than words ... or in this case attitude does.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> Willow would probably love to shove a Christmas tree up my ass--sideways.






now I just know the Dali Lama would giggle over that one..


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> No, you go back and explain then why you decided to suddenly go into a tirade of insults toward me and SkyDancer when we have always agreed with you?





what tirade?


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> we wish you a perfect state of happiness!



Thank you.  May you be happy and free of suffering.  May you and your family know the true meaning of Christmas.  May peace and love prevail on earth.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> Actions speak louder than words ... or in this case attitude does.







Who appointed you judge and jury?? doyathink?


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> now I just know the Dali Lama would giggle over that one..



I don't know if the Dalai Lama would giggle, but my Buddhist teacher wants us to be authentic.  I bet you got a giggle out of me telling the truth.

The image I had of you was you wearing that football helmet and shoving me in the chest over and over saying Merry Christmas Merry Christmas Merry Christmas you atheist piece of shit.


----------



## Annie (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> Thank you for wishing me peace and contentment.  Same to you.



Thanks, but wouldn't the respectful response have been to acknowledge 'my' holiday? I would Hanukkah, Kwanza, Ramadan, etc., if I knew them to be the person's holiday. Why not Christmas?


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> I don't know if the Dalai Lama would giggle, but my Buddhist teacher wants us to be authentic.  I bet you got a giggle out of me telling the truth.
> 
> The image I had of you was you wearing that football helmet and shoving me in the chest over and over saying Merry Christmas Merry Christmas Merry Christmas you atheist piece of shit.






well, like I observed,, "you ain't there yet."


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

Annie said:


> Thanks, but wouldn't the respectful response have been to acknowledge 'my' holiday? I would Hanukkah, Kwanza, Ramadan, etc., if I knew them to be the person's holiday. Why not Christmas?




because they are waging a "war on Christians" don't you see the forked tongues flicking???


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

Annie said:


> Thanks, but wouldn't the respectful response have been to acknowledge 'my' holiday? I would Hanukkah, Kwanza, Ramadan, etc., if I knew them to be the person's holiday. Why not Christmas?



Didn't I already wish you Merry Christmas?  If not, Merry Christmas.  I have repeatedly said I have NO problem wishing people Merry Christmas.


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> well, like I observed,, "you ain't there yet."



When you start acting Christ-like you'll have earned the right to point the finger at me.

I do a fine job acknowledging my many flaws without any help from you.  

You, on the other hand, seem to think you have none.


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> because they are waging a "war on Christians" don't you see the forked tongues flicking???



Wanna see my horns and tail too?


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> When you start acting Christ-like you'll have earned the right to point the finger at me.
> 
> I do a fine job acknowledging my many flaws without any help from you.
> 
> You, on the other hand, seem to think you have none.





actually I kinda like me! I'm very nice,, and tolerant of others religions and their rights to express themselves.. yep yep yep


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> Wanna see my horns and tail too?




no! your tongues scares me enough!


----------



## Annie (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> Didn't I already wish you Merry Christmas?  If not, Merry Christmas.  I have repeatedly said I have NO problem wishing people Merry Christmas.



Ok, blank me for being myopic. Thank you!


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> actually I kinda like me! I'm very nice,, and tolerant of others religions and their rights to express themselves.. yep yep yep



I have many flaws.  I'm feisty, and I like to argue.   Every day I examine and my mind and heart and find mistakes I've made.   

One mistake I made today is I should have stopped debating this issue with you long ago.  You aren't open to my point of view, and I should be able to just let you be.

If you insist on wishing people you know who are _not Christians _Merry Christmas, even when you know it offends some of us, I am not going to change your wish to be offensive to others.

Carry on.


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> no! your tongues scares me enough!



And I am very skilled with them.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> And I am very skilled with them.





yes we see that!


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

Ahem.  That's not what I meant.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> I have many flaws.  I'm feisty, and I like to argue.   Every day I examine and my mind and heart and find mistakes I've made.
> 
> One mistake I made today is I should have stopped debating this issue with you long ago.  You aren't open to my point of view, and I should be able to just let you be.
> 
> ...






You haven't told me exactly why the benign loving phrase "Merry Christmas" should offend anyone,, that's the part I'm perplexed about.. it has absolutely no malice attached to it,, why are you so easily offended by the Christian celebration of Christmas...


----------



## tigerbob (Dec 7, 2008)

Merry Christmas from me to all those of you that celebrate it.

And since goodwill to all men at Christmas is meant to be one of the things that Christianity is all about, here's wishing the rest of you peace and happiness at this special time of year.


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> You haven't told me exactly why the benign loving phrase "Merry Christmas" should offend anyone,, that's the part I'm perplexed about.. it has absolutely no malice attached to it,, why are you so easily offended by the Christian celebration of Christmas...



I am not offended in any way by Christians celebrating Christmas.   I am not offended in the least to wish someone a Merry Christmas, and I don't take offense when someone who doesn't know me wishes me Merry Christmas.  

I find it troubling that Christians insist on using the 'Merry Christmas' greeting with everyone equally, and that you specifically have said YOU DON'T CARE if someone is offended by your greeting.  That's hardly using the wish benignly.


I often choose to take the side of the non-dominant group in a debate or discussion.  It's just my nature to defend the underdog.  Christians are the dominant religious group in America.  It is absurd, that the relatively small group of atheists in America threaten Christians.  

Buddhists like to argue.  Debate is an art in Buddhism.


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

tigerbob said:


> Merry Christmas from me to all those of you that celebrate it.
> 
> And since goodwill to all men at Christmas is meant to be one of the things that Christianity is all about, here's wishing the rest of you peace and happiness at this special time of year.



Thank you.  I wish we had a national holiday where we just wished each other peace and well being instead of cultural warfare.


----------



## Ravi (Dec 7, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> That is an odd observation, but I find that it's true of most American raised regardless of skin color or religion. When I was working in Tucson so long ago there were a lot of Mexican immigrants, they were the best workers and I never had to deal with a complaint about them. They were legal, but suspect your observation probably fits as well.


If I can't be odd in cyberspace, where can I be odd?


----------



## Ravi (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> so? is it all about you???


No, but I'm not surprised you missed my point.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 7, 2008)

WhiteLion said:


> Black is Black and White is White and 2 + 2 has always equaled 4, there's no room for gray areas nor fence ridin, them days is over, your either a, Holy Ghost filled, Bible reading, Jesus praying Christian or your not, why waste your time?...  I call it like it is, the only public shitfit credibility going here as you say, is your apathetic apostate, anti-christ(YWN666) rhetoric. Oh and im never the loser in Christ Jesus, while i may stumble, i will not fall in Christ.... Bub? THE END



I bet Jesus is real proud of your calling someone "turd juice" although although the embarrassment of using such grade school insults should nave stopped you first.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> I am not offended in any way by Christians celebrating Christmas.   I am not offended in the least to wish someone a Merry Christmas, and I don't take offense when someone who doesn't know me wishes me Merry Christmas.
> 
> I find it troubling that Christians insist on using the 'Merry Christmas' greeting with everyone equally, and that you specifically have said YOU DON'T CARE if someone is offended by your greeting.  That's hardly using the wish benignly.
> 
> ...



Well said.


----------



## tigerbob (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> Thank you.  I wish we had a national holiday where we just wished each other peace and well being instead of cultural warfare.



I'd miss wishing people a Merry Christmas.  It's as much a part of me as.....well, it's just part of my DNA.

But I agree with your warfare sentiment.  This thread is a masterclass in irony.


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

tigerbob said:


> I'd miss wishing people a Merry Christmas.  It's as much a part of me as.....well, it's just part of my DNA.
> 
> But I agree with your warfare sentiment.  This thread is a masterclass in irony.




I think the whole point is to have a light heart about this stuff.  When someone is obviously brimming with joy and smiles and wishes me Merry Christmas, I smile back and wish them the same.

When someone gets all cross, and tells me that they are wishing Merry Christmas whether it offends atheists, Muslims or Jews or not, it leaves a sour taste in my mouth.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> I am not offended in any way by Christians celebrating Christmas.   I am not offended in the least to wish someone a Merry Christmas, and I don't take offense when someone who doesn't know me wishes me Merry Christmas.
> 
> I find it troubling that Christians insist on using the 'Merry Christmas' greeting with everyone equally, and that you specifically have said YOU DON'T CARE if someone is offended by your greeting.  That's hardly using the wish benignly.
> 
> ...





well since Christians mean no one any harm with the wishing of Merry Christmas I just don't get the animosity and the insistance on Happy Holidays, that's kinda forcing a Christian to give up his tradition, unless of course we should stop and ask before speaking to someone are you jewish, buddhist,, muslim, or atheist?? That would seem rude,, it's just as easy for a non Christian to accept "Merry Christmas" in the loving spirit in which it is extended to them..


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> I think the whole point is to have a light heart about this stuff.  *When someone is obviously brimming with joy and smiles and wishes me Merry Christmas, I smile back and wish them the same.*
> When someone gets all cross, and tells me that they are wishing Merry Christmas whether it offends atheists, Muslims or Jews or not, it leaves a sour taste in my mouth.





And therin lies the whole truth in my point!! It is given from me to you with joy and great tidings of love and happiness. that is all..


----------



## tigerbob (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> I think the whole point is to have a light heart about this stuff.  When someone is obviously brimming with joy and smiles and wishes me Merry Christmas, I smile back and wish them the same.
> 
> When someone gets all cross, and tells me that they are wishing Merry Christmas whether it offends someone or not it leaves a nasty taste in the mouth.



I don't know how I'd feel.  Probably somewhat bemused the first time it happened.  But if it just kept happening, I wonder how long before my bemusement gave way to something else.


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> well since Christians mean no one any harm with the wishing of Merry Christmas I just don't get the animosity and the insistance on Happy Holidays, that's kinda forcing a Christian to give up his tradition, unless of course we should stop and ask before speaking to someone are you jewish, buddhist,, muslim, or atheist?? That would seem rude,, it's just as easy for a non Christian to accept "Merry Christmas" in the loving spirit in which it is extended to them..



I'm starting to wonder if you read what I posted.  I said I am not offended when a stranger wishes me Merry Christmas.  

I find it offensive that YOU have stated that YOU DON"T CARE if you offend others and that whether they like it or not, you will wish EVERYONE a Meryy Christmas even when you know the person is NOT A CHRISTIAN.  That is NOT a loving spirit.

Why is it so difficult to be kind to others, especially during Christmas?


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> I'm starting to wonder if you read what I posted.  I said I am not offended when a stranger wishes me Merry Christmas.
> 
> I find it offensive that YOU have stated that YOU DON"T CARE if you offend others and that whether they like it or not, you will wish EVERYONE a Meryy Christmas even when you know the person is NOT A CHRISTIAN.  That is NOT a loving spirit.
> 
> Why is it so difficult to be kind to others, especially during Christmas?





but,, I never said that!


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

I live in a small, rural county, without great diversity.  Our Buddhist Gonpa is here, which is why I moved here.

I worked for a time at a Job Center.  One of my co-workers, who is Christian, is a minority Christian, a strict one, and she did not celebrate Christmas.  Everyone who worked with her knew this.  Still, some of the co-workers continued to make her participate in Christmas activities, causing her to repeatedly have to explain her discomfort.  This hurt and angered her that they did not respect her beliefs.  I thought it sucked.  

When I argue this topic, I remember her.  I argue on behalf of her.


----------



## Annie (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> I live in a small, rural county, without great diversity.  Our Buddhist Gonpa is here, which is why I moved here.
> 
> I worked for a time at a Job Center.  One of my co-workers, who is Christian, was a minority Christian who did not celebrate Christmas.  Everyone who worked with her knew this.  Still, some of the co-workers continued to make her participate in Christmas activites and this hurt and angered her that they did not respect her beliefs.  I thought it sucked.
> 
> When I argue this topic, I remember her.  I argue on behalf of her.



I would have done as you did. I might not agree with her denominations rationale, as I disagreed with my paternal Irish grandma, who believed the American celebration was all about money. But I'd defend their beliefs to say no to celebration.


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> but,, I never said that!


Go back and re-read the thread.

I may not have worded it EXACTLY word for word.  I specifically asked you what you would say to me, knowing I am not a Christian when I say Merry Christmas to you.

You said you would say Merry Christmas and if I was offended,.....oh well.  I could get over it or words to that effect.


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

Annie said:


> I would have done as you did. I might not agree with her denominations rationale, as I disagreed with my paternal Irish grandma, who believed the American celebration was all about money. But I'd defend their beliefs to say no to celebration.



It was aggressive and uncalled for.  We worked in an agency that recieved government funds with a mandate to be sensitive to employment law, I found it particularly disturbing.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> Go back and re-read the thread.
> 
> I may not have worded it EXACTLY word for word.  I specifically asked you what you would say to me, knowing I am not a Christian when I say Merry Christmas to you.
> 
> You said you would say Merry Christmas and if I was offended,.....oh well.  I could get over it or words to that effect.





nope! didn't say that


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> who said nobody else matters?? certainly not I.



You said "if they don't say Merry Christmas, they can stuff it."


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> You haven't told me exactly why the benign loving phrase "Merry Christmas" should offend anyone,, ..




You've been told over and over again that it is not about being offensive.  It is about equal respect being paid to people of all beliefs but you go off spouting this same complaint ad nauseam.  Is there something wrong with you?


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

Festivus for the rest of us!


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> You said "if they don't say Merry Christmas, they can stuff it."



I didn't say that about individuals and you know it,, it was about commerical shop keepers.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> You've been told over and over again that it is not about being offensive.  It is about equal respect being paid to people of all beliefs but you go off spouting this same complaint ad nauseam.  Is there something wrong with you?



so you are not offended if I say "Merry Christmas" to you?? is that correct??


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> I didn't say that about individuals and you know it,, it was about commerical shop keepers.



You specifically said so to me.  I told you I wished you Merry Christmas and I asked you how you would greet me knowing I am Buddhist.

You said you would say Merry Christmas to me whether I liked it or not.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> You specifically said so to me.  I told you I wished you Merry Christmas and I asked you how you would greet me knowing I am Buddhist.
> 
> You said you would say Merry Christmas to me whether I liked it or not.





no  I did not! You said Merry Christmas did not offend you. were you lying?


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

#587 (permalink)          Today, 03:35 PM  
 sky dancer  


*I'm not offended if someone says Merry Christmas to me. I happen to be a Buddhist by the way. *




your exact words post 587



you are such a scoundrel!


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree  
Merry Christmas   Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,118 
Rep Power: 18 


Quote:
Originally Posted by sky dancer  
What I think is nuts is not having the common decency when out in public to presume that people aren't Christians and to be sensitive when you use the greeting.

What's wrong with increasing sensitivity to others?


If I knew you and saw you in the street I would wish you a Merry Christmas with no problem. What would you say to me? 



I would say Merry Christmas back and you would probably be the sad bitter little person who was offended at my political incorrectness! and I would feel sorry for you.. there is nothing evil or unfriendly about Merry Christmas,, it isn't and never was meant to offend anybody it's sad that some people are so rigid and bitter that they are offended by Christians.. 




your question and my answer post #629


you are being dishonest.. in your accusations,,


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> #587 (permalink)          Today, 03:35 PM
> sky dancer
> 
> 
> ...



Read further.  I said I am not offended when a perfect stranger who doesn't know I'm a Buddhist wishes me Merry Christmas.


It is a cause for concern when someone says they don't care who they offend by saying Merry Christmas.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> Read further.  I said I am not offended when a perfect stranger who doesn't know I'm a Buddhist wishes me Merry Christmas.
> 
> 
> It is a cause for concern when someone says they don't care who they offend by saying Merry Christmas.





you are dishonest is what you are.. I never said that,, in either post,, you make stuff up as you go along.. not like any buddhist I know..


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

I told you I am a Buddhist.  If you run into a Muslim, Jew or Buddhist, and that person says "Merry Christmas" what do you say?

Previously, what you said was "Merry Christmas" and if those folks are offended, too bad.

I told you I have no problem with a stranger saying Merry Christmas to me.  If someone who knows I am Buddhist says it, it feels different.

And the extra added "I don't care who's offended by it" makes it worse.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> I told you I am a Buddhist.  If you run into a Muslim, Jew or Buddhist, and that person says "Merry Christmas" what do you say?
> 
> Previously, what you said was "Merry Christmas" and if those folks are offended, too bad.
> 
> ...





Nope! you are a very dishonest person is who you are.. you absolutely cannot show where I said that,, skydancer fits you,, the dancing part anyway..


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> I didn't say that about individuals and you know it,, it was about commerical shop keepers.



Irrelevant.  It still shows that you have no concern for others.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> Irrelevant.  It still shows that you have no concern for others.



bull crappy do you or do you not get offended by Merry Christmas??


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> Irrelevant.  It still shows that you have no concern for others.



and it obviously shows you have no concern for Christians..


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> so you are not offended if I say "Merry Christmas" to you?? is that correct??



Yes, that's correct.  If I did object, I would have said something after the 279 times you've repeated it in this thread.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> Yes, that's correct.  If I did object, I would have said something after the 279 times you've repeated it in this thread.




then why would anybody be offended by Merry Christmas doyathink??


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 7, 2008)

Originally Posted by YWN666 View Post
Irrelevant. It still shows that you have no concern for others.



WillowTree said:


> and it obviously shows you have no concern for Christians..



How does my pointing out your comment show that I have no concern for Christians????  That makes no sense.  What you're doing here is accusing me of something to avoid admitting to your hypocrisy.  It is a smokescreen.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> then why would anybody be offended by Merry Christmas doyathink??



Maybe because they'd like to have their own religious beliefs acknowledged instead of having to always accomodate the wants of christians.  It's about respect.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> bull crappy do you or do you not get offended by Merry Christmas??



For the 100th time, NO.  Are you fucking stupid?


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> Maybe because they'd like to have their own religious beliefs acknowledged instead of having to always accomodate the wants of christians.  It's about respect.


  respect for everybody but Christians obviously,, you are not respectful enough to let christians say Merry Christmas huh?


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 7, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> For the 100th time, NO.  Are you fucking stupid?





Yes! I could be fucking stupid if you say so! do you say so???


----------



## WhiteLion (Dec 7, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> I think the whole point is to have a light heart about this stuff.  When someone is obviously brimming with joy and smiles and wishes me Merry Christmas, I smile back and wish them the same.
> 
> When someone gets all cross, and tells me that they are wishing Merry Christmas whether it offends atheists, Muslims or Jews or not, it leaves a sour taste in my mouth.


What? are we suppose to be, mind readers now?, common flowerchild.. How do you know the difference in an atheist, muslim, etc etc???? at first glance, lol oh i see, "Hey man are you an atheist?? what about a Muslim??, you sure your not jewish??", just asking before i wish you a Merry Christmas wouldnt want to offend you??? Yeh heh get over it *MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!!*
Jesus the Christ said he would be the rock of offence,,,,,,,


----------



## WhiteLion (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> sky dancer said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not Jewish.  I have never been to Jerusalem.  I disagree that atheists want to cut Christ out of Christmas.  Consider Christmas from their point of view if you can.
> ...


----------



## WhiteLion (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> i double dog dare ya to google war on Christmas,, find all the little towns and big cities that are fighting this culture war,, then come right back here with yer disingenious it's O'reilly's fault and I will


Yep true just google it, lol  them cat avatars Williow


----------



## WhiteLion (Dec 7, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> Yes! I could be fucking stupid if you say so! do you say so???


Willow dont respond to that idiot nutter, hes nothing but another Shogun........


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 7, 2008)

WhiteLion said:


> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> > Buddha? thats a stone image of a fat man with long ear lobes. What does a stone cold fat idol do for one?, just curious. I know of the Muslims and all their tenets of faith, Muslims will just kill ya infidel if you dont worship like them its written in their Koran. But tell me of this stone Buddha belly thingy???
> ...


----------



## Chris (Dec 8, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> WhiteLion said:
> 
> 
> > The fat Chinese 'buddha' is more than likely a Taoist wealth deity.
> ...


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 8, 2008)

Chris said:


> Buddha is a dried bear turd.



I didn't know that.  Tell me more.  By the way, are you a Christian celebrating Christmas this year?  Shall I send you a present?


----------



## Chris (Dec 8, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> I didn't know that.  Tell me more.  By the way, are you a Christian celebrating Christmas this year?  Shall I send you a present?



You didn't know that?

It's an old Zen Koan.

It means that Buddha is in everything. 

Even the simplest thing....


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 8, 2008)

Great save, Chris.


----------



## Chris (Dec 8, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> Great save, Chris.



No save at all. 

I thought all Buddhists knew that Koan...

A monk asked Ummon, "What is Buddha?"

 Ummon answered, "A dried stick of dung."

http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/awakening101/yun-men.html


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 8, 2008)

No.  I never heard of that koan.  I don't study or practice zen buddhism.

Merry Christmas.


----------



## Chris (Dec 8, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> No.  I never heard of that koan.  I don't study or practice zen buddhism.
> 
> Merry Christmas.



So Buddhism is different than Zen Buddhism?


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 8, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> Yes! I could be fucking stupid if you say so! do you say so???



Your illogical comments say so.  I'm just an observer.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 8, 2008)

WhiteLion said:


> Willow dont respond to that idiot nutter, hes nothing but another Shogun........



In other words, you can't respond with substance so you have to attack me personally and tell everyone else to ignore me.  You're pathetic.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 8, 2008)

Originally Posted by YWN666 View Post
Maybe because they'd like to have their own religious beliefs acknowledged instead of having to always accomodate the wants of christians. It's about respect.



WillowTree said:


> respect for everybody but Christians obviously,, you are not respectful enough to let christians say Merry Christmas huh?



No, respect for everyone. If a store employee wishes a jewish person a Happy Hannukah, is that being disrespectful to you?  Of course not.  Drop the "poor little christian" act and read what I am saying for once.  I never said christians can't say Merry Christmas.

Can you outline for me exactly how anyone is taking anything away from christians or being disrespectful to them?


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 8, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> I think the whole point is to have a light heart about this stuff.  When someone is obviously brimming with joy and smiles and wishes me Merry Christmas, I smile back and wish them the same.
> 
> When someone gets all cross, and tells me that they are wishing Merry Christmas whether it offends atheists, Muslims or Jews or not, it leaves a sour taste in my mouth.



It is much like when someone says "I'll pray for you".  I am an atheist and don't pray but if someone knows that I have an illness in my family and says "I'll pray for you", I take it is a genuine wish for wellness.  If I am in a heated debate with another rabid religionist and he uses "I'll pray for you" to say "I'll pray that you stop being stupid and see that I'm right" or as a closing FU when he can't think of anything else to say, then that is a whole different story.  The intent has a lot to do with it.


----------



## Gunny (Dec 8, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> Originally Posted by YWN666 View Post
> Maybe because they'd like to have their own religious beliefs acknowledged instead of having to always accomodate the wants of christians. It's about respect.
> 
> 
> ...



If the "War on Christmas" isn't real, how come you are so adamant in attempting to disprove a non-entity?

Retailers screwed up trying to stay on top of the PC, secular game and it backfired for some of them because people are tired of this continual attack on our culture.  And whether you like or not, and no matter how you want to spin it, Christmas is part of our culture.  It makes most people happy.  Which I guess is the problem.  There's always that crowd that sees someone happy and has to find out why and then piss all over.  They suck, so they want to make sure they share their suckiness with everyone else.

If you don't want to celebrate Christmas, don't.  Don't know what's wrong with you younger folks that you can find a dark lining in every silver cloud.  I grew up when every excuse to party was a GOOD one.

Shit, sit home and watch the Grinch.  If you're really good with technology, you might be able to even edit it where he wins in the end.


----------



## Ravi (Dec 8, 2008)

Gunny said:


> Retailers screwed up trying to stay on top of the PC, secular game and it backfired for some of them because people are tired of this continual attack on our culture.


Nonsense. The only thing that is hurting Walmart and other retailers that attempt to be inclusive is the economy, not the outrage of a small group of fanatics who insist on being wished a Merry Christmas.


----------



## jillian (Dec 8, 2008)

Gunny said:


> If the "War on Christmas" isn't real, how come you are so adamant in attempting to disprove a non-entity?



Perhaps because there are loonies running around pretending the majority is victimized if a freaking greeter says "happy holidays" in order to be INCLUSIVE..... Nothing PC about it. Personally, I don't care what people say, but I think it's more polite to be generic if you don't know what the person you're speaking to is celebrating. Why NOT be polite?? Why NOT be inclusive?

And I'd doubt it's backfired on anyone except for the people who are still fussing about this cause it only resonates to the people who already agree with them. The rest of us just think it's pretty weird.


----------



## Lycurgus (Dec 8, 2008)

jillian said:


> Perhaps because there are loonies running around pretending the majority is victimized if a freaking greeter says "happy holidays" in order to be INCLUSIVE..... Nothing PC about it. Personally, I don't care what people say, but I think it's more polite to be generic if you don't know what the person you're speaking to is celebrating. Why NOT be polite?? Why NOT be inclusive?
> 
> And I'd doubt it's backfired on anyone except for the people who are still fussing about this cause it only resonates to the people who already agree with them. The rest of us just think it's pretty weird.




I could careless what the greeter says, if anything at all. If they represent a company, so long as they can answer my questions, I'll feel like I was just given a gift.


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 8, 2008)

WhiteLion said:


> Yep true just google it, lol  them cat avatars Williow



Okay, googled, all I see are people whining that not everyone celebrates it, about 100 references to O'Rielly (most call it his war). The only non-sided ones are those saying that it's all made up, a catch phrase, nothing real. Next.


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 8, 2008)

Happy payday! *nods sagely*
Happy double-time day!
Peaceful nap day!
Happy day that begins the fall of man!
... hmm ... can't think of a good one so Happy December Eve!


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 8, 2008)

I often wonder why so few people get this one part: "The pluralism of the holiday display might be a little unruly, but it is a reasonable alternative to stripping from government buildings any reference to these holidays that are such an important part of many citizens' lives."

Editorials & Opinion | Truce in the war on Christmas | Seattle Times Newspaper


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 8, 2008)

Chris said:


> So Buddhism is different than Zen Buddhism?



Zen is a particular school of Mahayana Buddhism and originated in Japan.  The Theravadin school which originated in South East Asia.  

I practice Mahayana/Vajrayana which originated in Tibet.  All Buddhsim share some common teachings--what is emphasized in the teachings and the specific practices that accompany these teachings differ. 

The koan is a specific method in Zen. 

All Buddhist practice has some commonality and the goal is to liberate the mind and heart.


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 8, 2008)

jillian said:


> Perhaps because there are loonies running around pretending the majority is victimized if a freaking greeter says "happy holidays" in order to be INCLUSIVE..... Nothing PC about it. Personally, I don't care what people say, but *I think it's more polite to be generic if you don't know what the person you're speaking to is celebrating. Why NOT be polite?? Why NOT be inclusive?*
> 
> And I'd doubt it's backfired on anyone except for the people who are still fussing about this cause it only resonates to the people who already agree with them. The rest of us just think it's pretty weird.



I agree with you.  What opponents insist on is their right to say "Merry Christmas" because their holiday traditions are parmount to them.

I doubt Christ cares one way or the other about Christmas greetings.  He was not born to originate the holiday of Christmas and start a culture war.

One thing that would NEVER occur to me, is to take for granted that every person I see out and about shopping at this time is a Christmas- celebrating- Christian.

Who I'd like to hear from are Christmas- celebrating- Christians, who don't buy the O'Reilly Culture War argument.  I want to hear from Christians who have no problem sometimes saying "Happy Holidays" or "Seasons Greetings" instead of 'Merry Christmas' to every stranger they meet on the street.


----------



## catzmeow (Dec 8, 2008)

wihosa said:


> I don't remember anybody getting upset but the Christians. They are the ones who are offended that retailers wish to be inclusive by using the term Happy Holidays.



I've never been offended by someone wishing me a merry christmas, particularly if that wish is accompanied with a gift.    It is the *CHRISTIANS* who (according to this thread) seem to get offended by being wished something generic, like Seasons Greetings or Happy Holidays.


----------



## catzmeow (Dec 8, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> It is much like when someone says "I'll pray for you".  I am an atheist and don't pray but if someone knows that I have an illness in my family and says "I'll pray for you", I take it is a genuine wish for wellness.  If I am in a heated debate with another rabid religionist and he uses "I'll pray for you" to say "I'll pray that you stop being stupid and see that I'm right" or as a closing FU when he can't think of anything else to say, then that is a whole different story.  The intent has a lot to do with it.



YES.  This is it, exactly.  It's all about the intent.  We don't pray, but I will say to someone who has suffered a loss, or is ill, "We'll thinking of you,"  and then follow up with a meal or cinnamon rolls or something to show our support for their family at a difficult time.


----------



## catzmeow (Dec 8, 2008)

Gunny said:


> If the "War on Christmas" isn't real, how come you are so adamant in attempting to disprove a non-entity?



Perception is reality.  The predominant faith believes itself under attack, and responds accordingly.  This leaves those of us who are non-religious in a curiously defensive position.



> Retailers screwed up trying to stay on top of the PC, secular game and it backfired for some of them because people are tired of this continual attack on our culture.  And whether you like or not, and no matter how you want to spin it, Christmas is part of our culture.  It makes most people happy.  Which I guess is the problem.  There's always that crowd that sees someone happy and has to find out why and then piss all over.  They suck, so they want to make sure they share their suckiness with everyone else


.

Most of the atheists and agnostics on this board ALSO celebrate Christmas.  None of us are offended by it.  It is the Christians who seemingly get offended when OTHER traditions are also celebrated simultaneously, such as kwanzaa and Hannukah, and when retailers wish all their patrons a generic "happy holidays."  It is an offensive position that the only holiday that matters at this time of year, apparently, is Christmas.



> If you don't want to celebrate Christmas, don't.  Don't know what's wrong with you younger folks that you can find a dark lining in every silver cloud.  I grew up when every excuse to party was a GOOD one.



This is exactly why, even though we aren't at all religious, my house will always be one of the first on the block with Christmas lights and a big beautiful tree.  I love the decorations!

No one is under attack here.  Christians, your faith is not diminished by others who do not share it.  In fact, it might be enlarged if you saw this time of year as a time to be especially gracious and joyous, versus being defensive and rude.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 8, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> Originally Posted by YWN666 View Post
> Maybe because they'd like to have their own religious beliefs acknowledged instead of having to always accomodate the wants of christians. It's about respect.
> 
> 
> ...




well then we have no disagreement then,, I can say Merry Christmas and no one should get upset.. finally this is cool.. Merry Merry Christmas


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 8, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> well then we have no disagreement then,, I can say Merry Christmas and no one should get upset.. finally this is cool.. Merry Merry Christmas




I say Merry Christmas to you, and you say to me?  (Hint: -You know I'm not a Christian).


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 8, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> Your illogical comments say so.  I'm just an observer.



Merry Christmas YWNN Merry Christmas


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 8, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> Okay, googled, all I see are people whining that not everyone celebrates it, about 100 references to O'Rielly (most call it his war). The only non-sided ones are those saying that it's all made up, a catch phrase, nothing real. Next.



did you find storeis of towns and citities??? or not???


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 8, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> I say Merry Christmas to you, and you say to me?  (Hint: -You know I'm not a Christian).



  I say Hello you very dishonest person,,


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 8, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> I say Hello you very dishonest person,,



Why not just say 'Peace on Earth and Goodwill to all' as an answer when I wish you Merry Christmas?

Is that so difficult?  It's still a Christmas spirit wish, is it not?  It's a wish that is inclusive to all human beings.

Consider it a Christmas gift to non-Christians.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 8, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> Why not just say Peace on Earth and Goodwill to all as an answer when I wish you Merry Christmas?
> 
> Is that so difficult?  It's still a Christmas spirit wish, is it not?  It's a wish that is inclusive to all human beings.





because you are a dishonest person,, that's why,, your intent is to misrepresent and argue something for the sake of creating controversy not like any buddhist I know..


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 8, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> I say Hello you very dishonest person,,



You almost sounded logical ... almost, until this. This is exactly why people don't trust what the whiners say, because even when we are on your side or take no sides you choose to go and attack, just because they disagreed with you on one topic or because they are not of the same beliefs as you. You really don't get it, and that's why many are becoming annoyed by the majority of christians. Get it through your heads, no one else (for the majority) really gives a shit about your religion, just don't expect everyone to follow it in any way.


----------



## Chris (Dec 8, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> Zen is a particular school of Mahayana Buddhism and originated in Japan.  The Theravadin school which originated in South East Asia.
> 
> I practice Mahayana/Vajrayana which originated in Tibet.  All Buddhsim share some common teachings--what is emphasized in the teachings and the specific practices that accompany these teachings differ.
> 
> ...



                  'kay


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 8, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> You almost sounded logical ... almost, until this. This is exactly why people don't trust what the whiners say, because even when we are on your side or take no sides you choose to go and attack, just because they disagreed with you on one topic or because they are not of the same beliefs as you. You really don't get it, and that's why many are becoming annoyed by the majority of christians. Get it through your heads, *no one else (for the majority) really gives a shit about your religion*, just don't expect everyone to follow it in any way.






he is dishonest, he says I said something I did not say,, that is dishonest.. all day long and all week end too. you will be annoyed and offended cause that's what you choose to do,, it's your choice of attitude and no one can do anything about it but you.. Merry Bah Humbug.. kittie kat


----------



## Lycurgus (Dec 8, 2008)

I say Merry Christmas to everyone who comes in our business. If that offends them, too damn bad, that is their problem. I don't really care how they great me in return, that is their choice, not mine. Well, unless they are rude. They can say happy holidays, they can say hi, hey, ho, I could careless. 

As for the Atheist sign in debate. I have one problem with it, it does nothing to support/celebrate evolution. It is a bitch sign. There is no reason to take shots at others, to express what you believe in. I feel the same way about Christians or those of any faith. Their sign is not a celebration of what they believe, it is a political bitch sign. Period. Put up a sign which represents the belief. 

Ah well, I'm also one of these people who don't care much for organized religion. Most of it is all simply big money makers I don't give a damn which faith it is or a place for people to go and group up to talk about others. I can go to a PTA meeting and get that or a political message board! LOL

I have found that most religions are based on good. Most are based on values which can help people lead decent peaceful lives. Further, my faith is mine. I don't expect my faith to be right for anyone else but me! Nor do I expect myself for force my faith on anyone else. And so long as another persons faith doesn't interfere with my life, I could careless what they believe in or don't believe in. They have to live with that, not me! 

So Merry Christmas Everyone!


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 8, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> he is dishonest, he says I said something I did not say,, that is dishonest.. all day long and all week end too. you will be annoyed and offended cause that's what you choose to do,, it's your choice of attitude and no one can do anything about it but you.. Merry Bah Humbug.. kittie kat



Annoyed is better than carrying something someone said once so long that it turns into a stone you carry up a hill you can never climb. Even the christians have a forgiveness policy, why not go by that. Clearly SkyDances has put it behind him and moved on, why is it hard for you to as well. But then it's not even just him, when I defended your position several times you still tossed insults out instead of realizing that I was actually posting to your benefit. I am just hoping that you will see this flaw and realize that it's the reason that many non-christians sometimes get defensive against many christians. It's that attitude. Even if someone agrees with you on only ONE topic, at least acknowledge that instead of attacking them just for spite.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 8, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> Annoyed is better than carrying something someone said once so long that it turns into a stone you carry up a hill you can never climb. Even the christians have a forgiveness policy, why not go by that. Clearly SkyDances has put it behind him and moved on, why is it hard for you to as well. But then it's not even just him, when I defended your position several times you still tossed insults out instead of realizing that I was actually posting to your benefit. I am just hoping that you will see this flaw and realize that it's the reason that many non-christians sometimes get defensive against many christians. It's that attitude. Even if someone agrees with you on only ONE topic, at least acknowledge that instead of attacking them just for spite.



  what insults??? what insulted you?? exactly??


----------



## Ravi (Dec 8, 2008)

Lycurgus said:


> If that offends them, too damn bad, that is their problem.


I like to make my clients happy because when I do they give me money.

But if being rude to your customers keeps you thriving, go for it.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 8, 2008)

Ravi said:


> I like to make my clients happy because when I do they give me money.
> 
> But if being rude to your customers keeps you thriving, go for it.




so we are back to saying "Merry Christmas" is seen as rude! oh the intolerance of it all!


----------



## Ravi (Dec 8, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> so we are back to saying "Merry Christmas" is seen as rude! oh the intolerance of it all!


I didn't say that. And Sky was correct in her assessment of you.

Not to mention you're an idiot.


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 8, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> what insults??? what insulted you?? exactly??



Alright, I did some of the research for you to refresh you memory, though none was truly insulting the intent of being an insult is what makes me not care if I hurt your feelings:



WillowTree said:


> you are probably one of those who are easily baffled!





WillowTree said:


> no it's not going in circles,, you atheists haven't deviated from yer message.
> 
> this holiday does not belong to christians
> 
> ...



Though the second should offend atheists, calling someone who believes in spirits and afterlife an atheist is generally offensive to their ilk, and yet even they didn't fight back.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 8, 2008)

Ravi said:


> I didn't say that. And Sky was correct in her assessment of you.
> 
> Not to mention you're an idiot.





It's right up there,, you exactly said that..


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 8, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> Alright, I did some of the research for you to refresh you memory, though *none was truly insulting *the intent of being an insult is what makes me not care if I hurt your feelings:  oh but somehow you know intent????
> 
> 
> 
> ...






.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 8, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> Alright, I did some of the research for you to refresh you memory, though none was truly insulting the intent of being an insult is what makes me not care if I hurt your feelings:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





they call themselves atheists,, and I'm supposedly insulting them when I say atheist??? like I said,, you are just looking for something to be unhappy about,,, and btw there is nothing you can say that will hurt my feelings,, you don't have that kind of power over me. sorry..


----------



## Ravi (Dec 8, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> It's right up there,, you exactly said that..


No, I said I like to make my clients happy, he said he didn't care if he offended his. You really are stupid. Making your clients happy includes caring if you offend them or not. 

Good luck getting through the pearly gates, I've got a feeling Jesus probably thinks you are a mean spirited twit.

And I personally won't be wishing you a Merry Christmas.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 8, 2008)

Ravi said:


> No, I said I like to make my clients happy, he said he didn't care if he offended his. You really are stupid. Making your clients happy includes caring if you offend them or not.
> 
> Good luck getting through the pearly gates, I've got a feeling Jesus probably thinks you are a mean spirited twit.
> 
> And I personally won't be wishing you a Merry Christmas.





lol,, he said he would say Merry Christmas,, you countered with "if being rude""" bla bla bla,,, can't get out of it you said it..


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 8, 2008)

Ravi said:


> No, I said I like to make my clients happy, he said he didn't care if he offended his. You really are stupid. Making your clients happy includes caring if you *offend them or not*.
> 
> Good luck getting through the pearly gates, I've got a feeling Jesus probably thinks you are a mean spirited twit.
> 
> And I personally won't be wishing you a Merry Christmas.




why should saying Merry Christmas offend anybody??


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 8, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> they call themselves atheists,, and I'm supposedly insulting them when I say atheist??? like I said,, you are just looking for something to be unhappy about,,, and btw there is nothing you can say that will hurt my feelings,, you don't have that kind of power over me. sorry..



Now I know you don't read everything in a post you respond to. At least read what you are responding because that response just makes you look like a fool.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 8, 2008)

Ravi said:


> No, I said I like to make my clients happy, he said he didn't care if he offended his. You really are stupid. Making your clients happy includes caring if you offend them or not.
> 
> Good luck getting through the pearly gates, I've got a feeling Jesus probably thinks you are a mean spirited twit.
> 
> ...


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 8, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> Now I know you don't read everything in a post you respond to. At least read what you are responding because that response just makes you look like a fool.





you must clarify!


----------



## Ravi (Dec 8, 2008)

Wow, three responses to my one post, Willow.

What an idiot.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 8, 2008)

Ravi said:


> Wow, three responses to my one post, Willow.
> 
> What an idiot.





thank you ravi,, I'm my favorite idiot..


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 8, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> you must clarify!



What is unclear about "You need to read the whole post?"


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 8, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> What is unclear about "You need to read the whole post?"



which post?


----------



## catzmeow (Dec 8, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> why should saying Merry Christmas offend anybody??



It certainly doesn't offend me.  I might tell you, in response, to have a cool yule!


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 8, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> which post?



You must be just looking for something to whine about this time of year. Here's a clue because no matter how bluntly something is said you don't get it, look at what you are quoting, then what that was a reply to ... etc.


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 8, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> It certainly doesn't send me.  I might tell you, in response, to have a cool yule!



I have seen more people take offense when NOT responded to with "merry christmas" than I have ever seen people take offense at being wished one. Now THAT'S truly messed up.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 8, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> You must be just looking for something to whine about this time of year. Here's a clue because no matter how bluntly something is said you don't get it, look at what you are quoting, then what that was a reply to ... etc.





I'm trying to find out why saying "Merry Christmas" is offensive!


----------



## Lycurgus (Dec 8, 2008)

Ravi said:


> I like to make my clients happy because when I do they give me money.
> 
> But if being rude to your customers keeps you thriving, go for it.





Rude?

Wishing them a Merry Christmas is rude?

Are you not able to comprehend what you read?

The point was simple. I wish everyone a Merry Christmas, but, I am not going to change who I am or try and great each person with a different slogan based on their personal views. 

In turn, I take no offense as to how they greet me, unless they are rude. Then I toss their ass out.

In other words, it's called live and let live. 

this is our 60th year in business, so thanks, I'll keep it up!


----------



## Lycurgus (Dec 8, 2008)

Ravi said:


> I didn't say that. And Sky was correct in her assessment of you.
> 
> Not to mention you're an idiot.




No frankly you are the idiot because that is exactly what you implied.


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 8, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> I'm trying to find out why saying "Merry Christmas" is offensive!



Okay ... one more time though I know this won't be the last. No one is taking offense, the few (and very few) people that do are just being grumpy. Just don't get offended if someone doesn't say the same thing. That's what almost everyone has told you, no one cares what you say for a greeting. Hell, I often use "Boo!" as a generic greeting and even people who don't know me think it's cute. Point is, you just seem to WANT people to take offense even when they aren't. All those who think their is a "war on christmas" seem to want that as well. Most people don't care, the few who do care for logical reasons just stay home that day, the very few who do grumble about it are most likely just having a bad day and really don't care but just want something to whine about ... familiar as it is. The companies that changed their policies didn't do it because of pressure from anyone else, they did it to pander which is more offensive to those they are pandering to.

The phony concept of "war on christmas" would be if a bunch of people actually wanted to end all christmas celebrations and make it illegal, not ONE person can seriously want that. Also to accuse atheists of wanted to attack christmas is like accusing a shopper of not wanting to spend money. Pagans love christmas to, though many call it yule or some other name, since that's where the tree, log, candles, etc. are from. The gifts, well, who doesn't like free stuff.


----------



## Lycurgus (Dec 8, 2008)

Ravi said:


> No, I said I like to make my clients happy, he said he didn't care if he offended his. You really are stupid. Making your clients happy includes caring if you offend them or not.
> 
> Good luck getting through the pearly gates, I've got a feeling Jesus probably thinks you are a mean spirited twit.
> 
> And I personally won't be wishing you a Merry Christmas.






Willow, you are trying to debate with a person (see above quote) who either is not capable of comprehending what they read or who is simply pissed off at the world today and wants to fight about anything. 

Either way, there is only one worthy answer for them.....

I posted basically that I believe in live and let live. That I accept and understand that I cannot control anothers faith or what they find correct and that I have no desire to. This idiot above, is too stupid to understand that and claims that to be rude. 

Get a life or here, let me help you with another option!


----------



## Ravi (Dec 8, 2008)

Lycurgus said:


> Rude?
> 
> Wishing them a Merry Christmas is rude?
> 
> ...


No, I don't think wishing someone a Merry Christmas is rude unless you are doing it for some ulterior motive.

I was commenting on this post point of yours: _If that offends them, too damn bad, that is their problem._

But if you don't care if you offend them, it hardly matters. It just isn't a way I would treat my clients.


----------



## Ravi (Dec 8, 2008)

Lycurgus said:


> No frankly you are the idiot because that is exactly what you implied.


Sorry you seem to have a reading comprehension problem. Feel free to agree with an idiot, doesn't bother me at all.


----------



## Lycurgus (Dec 8, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> It certainly doesn't offend me.  I might tell you, in response, to have a cool yule!



There ya go!

That is my exact point. It is about acceptance of others. 

Sadly not everyone got that message. But, I great people in a kind way which I am comfortable with and 99% of them return that greeting in the same fashion, in a manor which they are comfortable with. Everyone's happy!

But, not I, not you, not any of us can control what might offend another nor can we be expected to know ahead of time. So I don't give a damn about that. I worry about getting along. Most people agree and do the same, those who don't, they can leave my place of business, home or whatever.


----------



## del (Dec 8, 2008)

i've always wanted to say "good yontif, pontiff" to the Pope, but the opportunity has never presented itself. maybe this year........


----------



## Lycurgus (Dec 8, 2008)

Ravi said:


> No, I don't think wishing someone a Merry Christmas is rude unless you are doing it for some ulterior motive.
> 
> I was commenting on this post point of yours: _If that offends them, too damn bad, that is their problem._
> 
> But if you don't care if you offend them, it hardly matters. It just isn't a way I would treat my clients.


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 8, 2008)

del said:


> i've always wanted to say "good yontif, pontiff" to the Pope, but the opportunity has never presented itself. maybe this year........



That would be cool to see, or do.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 8, 2008)

WhiteLion said:


> WTH does a Wal-Mart greeter have to do with the *war on Christmas*the original subject???





YWN666 said:


> The WalMart greeters were part of the original whine-fest by Bill O'Reilly and others - they claimed that WalMart greeters were forbidden from saying Merry Christmas, an assertion that was proven to be 100% false.



White Lion -- Your question was not answered.  Store greeters were brought up _on this thread _by Shogun in the very first response to the link I posted.  O'Reilly's comments had nothing to do with it.  It kind of snowballed from there.  



Shogun said:


> yea yea yea...  you are not the only belief system with a holiday during this time of year, dogma junkie.  We've already won; *go ask Retail store greeters *all about it.


----------



## Lycurgus (Dec 8, 2008)

In regard to the Atheist sign which is in such debate. ............

The Christmas Displays this sign are next to and the displays of other faiths take no rude shots at anyone else. They simply celebrate the belief they are meant to.

Why doesn't the Atheist group simply create a display or sign which does the same? 

Why is it needed that their sign has to knock what others believe in?

Why can't they simply present something which celebrates what they believe in and be happy?

then if the other groups don't like that, it's on them. 

They purposely placed a sign up with the intention and the wording to incite and that is what has happened and the governor was too stupid and fell for it. 

All she had to do was ask that their display be in the same light as the others, a celebration of their belief. 

I'm sure though even this would be unreasonable to some and I can't wait to hear about it. LOL

Live and let live people. Be comfortable in your own skin.


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 8, 2008)

Lycurgus said:


> In regard to the Atheist sign which is in such debate. ............
> 
> The Christmas Displays this sign are next to and the displays of other faiths take no rude shots at anyone else. They simply celebrate the belief they are meant to.
> 
> ...



I agree, but it is still protected by freedom of speech. Thing is that I don't think most atheists think that way and just some nutjob decided to make more controversy for the sake of making it.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 8, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> Okay ... one more time though I know this won't be the last. *No one is taking offense*, the few (and very few) people that do are just being grumpy. Just don't get offended if someone doesn't say the same thing. That's what almost everyone has told you, no one cares what you say for a greeting. Hell, I often use "Boo!" as a generic greeting and even people who don't know me think it's cute. Point is, you just seem to WANT people to take offense even when they aren't. All those who think their is a "war on christmas" seem to want that as well. Most people don't care, the few who do care for logical reasons just stay home that day, the very few who do grumble about it are most likely just having a bad day and really don't care but just want something to whine about ... familiar as it is. The companies that changed their policies didn't do it because of pressure from anyone else, they did it to pander which is more offensive to those they are pandering to.
> 
> The phony concept of "war on christmas" would be if a bunch of people actually wanted to end all christmas celebrations and make it illegal, not ONE person can seriously want that. Also to accuse atheists of wanted to attack christmas is like accusing a shopper of not wanting to spend money. Pagans love christmas to, though many call it yule or some other name, since that's where the tree, log, candles, etc. are from. The gifts, well, who doesn't like free stuff.





so all this stuff people been saying on here that it's much nicer to say Happy Holidays is a buncha hogwash and it was very okay the whole entire time to say "Merry Christmas" cause no one got offended??? Thanks for clearing that up for me.. I sure am dense sometimes..


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 8, 2008)

Ravi said:


> No, I don't think wishing someone a Merry Christmas is rude unless you are doing it for some ulterior motive.
> 
> I was commenting on this post point of yours: _If that offends them, too damn bad, that is their problem._
> 
> But if you don't care if you offend them, it hardly matters. It just isn't a way I would treat my clients.





why should saying Merry Christmas offend anyone??? that's what I'm trying to get you to tell us!!


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 8, 2008)

Lycurgus said:


> In regard to the Atheist sign which is in such debate. ............
> 
> The Christmas Displays this sign are next to and the displays of other faiths take no rude shots at anyone else. They simply celebrate the belief they are meant to.
> 
> ...





because atheists are indeed waging a war on Christmas..


----------



## Ravi (Dec 8, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> why should saying Merry Christmas offend anyone??? that's what I'm trying to get you to tell us!!


I've no real idea because it doesn't offend me.

If I knew you were a Christian I certainly wouldn't wish you a happy Ramadan because you might take offense and my goal in wishing someone happiness is not an effort to cause them offense.

Wait, maybe I would wish you a happy Ramadan in the hope of offending you. But normal people, not so much.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 8, 2008)

Ravi said:


> I've no real idea because it doesn't offend me.
> 
> If I knew you were a Christian I certainly wouldn't wish you a happy Ramadan because you might take offense and my goal in wishing someone happiness is not an effort to cause them offense.
> 
> Wait, maybe I would wish you a happy Ramadan in the hope of offending you. But normal people, not so much.





No,, what you should do is wish me "Happy Idiot's Day" or something! Yes! This is good advice from someone who is the authority on not offending wouldn't you say? Ravi?


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 8, 2008)

Ravi said:


> I've no real idea because it doesn't offend me.
> 
> If I knew you were a Christian I certainly wouldn't wish you a happy Ramadan *because you might take offense *and my goal in wishing someone happiness is not an effort to cause them offense.
> 
> Wait, maybe I would wish you a happy Ramadan in the hope of offending you. But normal people, not so much.





why exactly would I take offense doyathink? just because I'm not a muslim?? see?? that's just want someting to be offended about!  I rest my case.


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 8, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> so all this stuff people been saying on here that it's much nicer to say Happy Holidays is a buncha hogwash and it was very okay the whole entire time to say "Merry Christmas" cause no one got offended??? Thanks for clearing that up for me.. I sure am dense sometimes..



Um yeah, one or two (haven't seen anyone else) saying that you shouldn't is a war. If one opinion is that important to you that you think it's a war then they don't have much to worry about anyway. Those who say they don't say it also say they don't care if someone else does say it. So ... yeah, you are dense.


----------



## Ravi (Dec 8, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> No,, what you should do is wish me "Happy Idiot's Day" or something! Yes! This is good advice from someone who is the authority on not offending wouldn't you say? Ravi?


Why would I want to wish you any sort of happiness? Is this now a requirement?


----------



## Ravi (Dec 8, 2008)

I've come to the conclusion that Willow is a complete and utter moron who will never make it to heaven.

Time to put her back on ignore for a while.


----------



## Agnapostate (Dec 8, 2008)

I despise those religion-hating bastards at the ACLU, and their Stalinist tactics!   

Oh, wait...

American Civil Liberties Union : ACLU Cases Defending Religious Freedom



> The following selected recent cases (mostly since 1995) show that the ACLU defends the rights of those who identify themselves as Christians (Part I) as well as those who have other beliefs (Part II).
> 
> Part I - Defending the Rights of Those Identifying Themselves as Christian
> 
> ...


----------



## catzmeow (Dec 8, 2008)

Lycurgus said:


> In regard to the Atheist sign which is in such debate. ............
> 
> The Christmas Displays this sign are next to and the displays of other faiths take no rude shots at anyone else. They simply celebrate the belief they are meant to.
> 
> ...




Perhaps they do it to get a rise out of the religious folks, just like the religious folks put up their "god" billboards to get a reaction.  If so, the reaction the atheists are likely seeking in this case is for some of you to get your panties in a wad, by being confronted day in and day out with messages that are derogatory to your personal beliefs.  This is what it is like to live in the U.S. as an unbeliever.  Welcome to our journey.

Also, it appears they've succeeded.  They got exactly the reaction they hoped for.


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 8, 2008)

Agnapostate said:


> I despise those religion-hating bastards at the ACLU, and their Stalinist tactics!
> 
> Oh, wait...
> 
> American Civil Liberties Union : ACLU Cases Defending Religious Freedom



LOL, thanks for that.


----------



## Valerie (Dec 8, 2008)

Ravi said:


> I've come to the conclusion that Willow is a complete and utter moron who will never make it to heaven.
> 
> Time to put her back on ignore for a while.



I thought Willow was a man?  I have seen some calling Willow "she"  but I also remember seeing Willow mention something about his wife.

Willow?  What say you?


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 8, 2008)

Ravi said:


> Why would I want to wish you any sort of happiness? Is this now a requirement?



well, it was yer question.. methinks


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 8, 2008)

Valerie said:


> I thought Willow was a man?  I have seen some calling Willow "she"  but I also remember seeing Willow mention something about his wife.
> 
> Willow?  What say you?





I say find it!


----------



## Valerie (Dec 8, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> I say find it!



 So you can't just clarify?

I'll try to remember where it was, but I remember distinctly you mentioned your wife and someone else called it to your attention and then you deflected, much like you're doing right now.  

Oh, I get it!  You're a lesbian???

Whatever, I really don't really care what you are, honestly.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 8, 2008)

Valerie said:


> So you can't just clarify?
> 
> I'll try to remember where it was, but I remember distinctly you mentioned your wife and someone else called it to your attention and then you deflected, much like you're doing right now.
> 
> ...




maybe you should get yer memory checked,, if you can remember it surely you can remember where it was?? or maybe you'll admit to a faulty memory!


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 8, 2008)

[YOUTUBE]cC9o4oYMIqI&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Valerie (Dec 8, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> maybe you should get yer memory checked,, if you can remember it surely you can remember where it was?? or maybe you'll admit to a faulty memory!



My apologies if I'm remembering incorrectly.  Funny you can't just answer the question, though.    I don't care enough to go looking for it, sorry.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 8, 2008)

Valerie said:


> My apologies if I'm remembering incorrectly.  Funny you can't just answer the question, though.    I don't care enough to go looking for it, sorry.




you didn't ask a question, you made an assertion, then an accusation,, as if being a lesbian were a bad thing?? you like skydancer are a very dishonest person..


----------



## Valerie (Dec 8, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> you didn't ask a question, you made an assertion, then an accusation,, as if being a lesbian were a bad thing?? you like skydancer are a very dishonest person..



Really?  You think?  You are a funny one Weeping Willow, I'll give you that.

I asked you to clarify my confusion about your gender.

So are you going to tell me whether or not you are really a woman?


----------



## Agnapostate (Dec 8, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> LOL, thanks for that.



+1?


----------



## jillian (Dec 8, 2008)

Lycurgus said:


> Rude?
> 
> Wishing them a Merry Christmas is rude?



Probably better manners to wish people happy holidays when you don't know what they celebrate.



> The point was simple. I wish everyone a Merry Christmas, but, I am not going to change who I am or try and great each person with a different slogan based on their personal views.



So, in other words, you don't care about the people to whom you're extending wishes.... this is about YOU!

Perhaps you might want to re-think that if, in fact, you're wishing well to others?  But, ultimately, as I said earlier, no one really cares about this issue except for the loonies.


----------



## Valerie (Dec 8, 2008)

jillian said:


> Probably better manners to wish people happy holidays when you don't know what they celebrate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hey Jillian, Happy Hanukkah!


----------



## jillian (Dec 8, 2008)

Valerie said:


> Hey Jillian, Happy Hanukkah!




and merry christmas to you!


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 8, 2008)

I can not believe I just spent the past 45 minutes reading through the last 20 pages of this thread.  It certainly deteriorated.  

I used to work at Kohl's.  I loved working during Christmas because (usually) people were nice and friendly.  It was also busy busy which made the time fly by.  I always wished people Merry Christmas, not because I was trying to insult them but because that is what I believe and extended to others.  Never once did anyone get mad, annoyed, or complained that I said this.  Not once.  More often than not they would reply with Happy Holidays and I would smile and say enjoy the rest of your day. And I was not offended by their greeting to me.  But the replys that always struck me were the ones where the customer would lean in to me and say 'Oh Merry Christmas hun.  It's so nice to hear that.  You never know what to say these days because everyone gets so offended'.  I would also have my greeting returned with 'Happy Hanukkah' or 'Happy Kwanzza' and I would smile and be happy in their greeting to me.  I wasn't offended that they didn't wish me Merry Christmas, I was glad they were extending their beliefs to me and well. . . . it was all good.

The 'war on Christmas' isn't about some arbitrary greeting in a store, it's about the slow erosion of Christ from Christmas.  For Christians, Christmas is a holy day first and a holiday second.  For those who don't believe that, it's fine.  But the majority of this country is Christian and replacing 'Christmas' with 'Holidays' in everything diminishes the importance of Christmas (the religious aspect).  Some people want to pretend that Christmas is equal to Kwanzaa, that Christmas is equal to Hanukkah.  It isn't.  All Christians want is for Christ to remain in Christmas.  Is that so hard?  If you do not believe then pay no attention to the religious aspect and just enjoy the secular part of the season.  

It seems to me that there is a determined effort by our culture to make this 'holiday' season all one big, happy picture - which in and of it'self is fine.  The problem with this is that in the process, Christ is trivialized and getting knocked out of the picture.  Posters on this thread knock Christmas (the religious part) constantly by bringing up the pagan aspects of Christmas, implying that these paganisms mean that Christmas isn't holy at all.  Whatever the history and background of Christmas, _today_ it is celebrated by vast majority of this country as a _religious celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ_.  They like to call Christianity just a myth.  Again, if you do not believe that's fine but why insult someone else's beliefs?


----------



## Lycurgus (Dec 8, 2008)

jillian said:


> Probably better manners to wish people happy holidays when you don't know what they celebrate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




LOL ........... your just as ignorant as the other one. Go reread it try to get it. 

I suppose I should stop each person and ask them, excuse me, please explain your religious and political feelings to me so I can address you correctly and then say hi to them?

You dumbass!

I greet people warmly and openly. And clearly unlike people like you, when they return that greeting in a fashion which works for them, I accept it warmly and openly, no matter how they phrase it, unless it is rude. 

Get a life moron!   LOL


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 8, 2008)

Valerie said:


> Really?  You think?  You are a funny one Weeping Willow, I'll give you that.
> 
> I asked you to clarify my confusion about your gender.
> 
> So are you going to tell me whether or not you are really a woman?




I thought you said you didn't care? and you think I'm funny?


----------



## Valerie (Dec 8, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> I thought you said you didn't care? and you think I'm funny?




I do think you're funny, Mr. Weeping Willow...Really, I do.


----------



## Lycurgus (Dec 8, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> I can not believe I just spent the past 45 minutes reading through the last 20 pages of this thread.  It certainly deteriorated.
> 
> *I used to work at Kohl's.  I loved working during Christmas because (usually) people were nice and friendly.  It was also busy busy which made the time fly by.  I always wished people Merry Christmas, not because I was trying to insult them but because that is what I believe and extended to others.  Never once did anyone get mad, annoyed, or complained that I said this.  Not once.  More often than not they would reply with Happy Holidays and I would smile and say enjoy the rest of your day.  But the replys that always struck me were the ones where the customer would lean in to me and say 'Oh Merry Christmas hun.  It's so nice to hear that.  You never know what to say these days because everyone gets so offended'.  I would also have my greeting returned with 'Happy Hanukkah' or 'Happy Kwanzza' and I would smile and be happy in their greeting to me.  I wasn't offended that they didn't wish me Merry Christmas, I was glad they were extending their beliefs to me and well. . . . it was all good.*




EXACTLY!

Thankfully you too understood that you cannot profile each person before greeting them!  LOL

And thankfully you too are/were happy to accept their warm wishes, no matter what they represented. 

That is the exact point, live and let live.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 8, 2008)

Gunny said:


> If the "War on Christmas" isn't real, how come you are so adamant in attempting to disprove a non-entity?




The war is not real but the whining is.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 8, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> The war is not real but the whining is.




now on that we agree, there is a lot of whining about somebody trying to wish them a Merry Christmas.. I just don't get it..


----------



## Lycurgus (Dec 8, 2008)

This thread is hilarious. It's like the Springer show playing all day long!  lol

Oh and I didn't realize that gender was mandatory, but, I'm a male ........ today!


----------



## jillian (Dec 8, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> I agree with you.  What opponents insist on is their right to say "Merry Christmas" because their holiday traditions are parmount to them.



Exactly.



> I doubt Christ cares one way or the other about Christmas greetings.  He was not born to originate the holiday of Christmas and start a culture war.



I agree... he'd have said Happy Chanukah. 



> One thing that would NEVER occur to me, is to take for granted that every person I see out and about shopping at this time is a Christmas- celebrating- Christian.



I agree... and while I don't care if someone says Merry Christmas, I do appreciate it when they acknowledge that I might celebrate something different.


----------



## jillian (Dec 8, 2008)

Lycurgus said:


> This thread is hilarious. It's like the Springer show playing all day long!  lol
> 
> Oh and I didn't realize that gender was mandatory, but, I'm a male ........ today!



Well, let us know the days you feel in touch with your feminine side.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 8, 2008)

Lycurgus said:


> This thread is hilarious. It's like the Springer show playing all day long!  lol
> 
> Oh and I didn't realize that gender was mandatory, but, I'm a male ........ today!


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 8, 2008)

Lycurgus said:


> I suppose I should stop each person and ask them, excuse me, please explain your religious and political feelings to me so I can address you correctly and then say hi to them?
> 
> You dumbass!




Or you could just wish them a Happy Holiday and cover all your bases without asking them about their religious beliefs.  Retailers don't want to alienate customers so why risk it? I personally feel good if a business tries to be all inclusive instead of just catering to the majority.  Of course if you're in the majority, you probably don't care about this but that is the problem.  Also, if a business does soemething that irritates me, I won't usually say something, I will just quietly decide to take my business elsewhere next time I shop.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 8, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> Or you could just wish them a Happy Holiday and cover all your bases without asking them about their religious beliefs.  Retailers don't want to alienate customers so why risk it? I personally feel good if a business tries to be all inclusive instead of just catering to the majority.  Of course if you're in the majority, you probably don't care about this but that is the problem.  Also, if a business does soemething that irritates me, I won't usually say something, *I will just quietly decide to take my business elsewhere next time I shop.[/QUOTE*]
> 
> 
> why? If Merry Christmas" dosen't offend why???   and you mocked me for saying that.(the bolded)..


----------



## Lycurgus (Dec 8, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> Or you could just wish them a Happy Holiday and cover all your bases without asking them about their religious beliefs.  Retailers don't want to alienate customers so why risk it? I personally feel good if a business tries to be all inclusive instead of just catering to the majority.  Of course if you're in the majority, you probably don't care about this but that is the problem.  Also, if a business does soemething that irritates me, I won't usually say something, I will just quietly decide to take my business elsewhere next time I shop.




Honestly, if me saying Merry Christmas to you would offend you so much that you would want to correct me, instead of simply being nice in your own fashion as well, then YES, you should take your business else where, because chances are you would be asked to. 

Thankfully most people are not so petty and narrow minded and thankfully they have graced our doors for many years and they do so knowing, that petty people and people who just like to stir the pot for no good reason, don't stick around. 

Thankfully, when I look down our counter I see people from all walks of life, religion, race, social status and so on, talking, telling stories and jokes and not getting their shorts bent of bull shit like this. And when someone does wander in and wants to be an idiot and start such petty bickering, the rest of us have a good laugh, after I kick them out. 

Company Policy - Check your bull shit at the door, but, firearms are permitted! 

Hey, thanks for the feedback! & enjoy being misserable because people wish something good to you! LOL

oh and we give every dog a free burger!


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 8, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> YWN666 said:
> 
> 
> > Or you could just wish them a Happy Holiday and cover all your bases without asking them about their religious beliefs.  Retailers don't want to alienate customers so why risk it? I personally feel good if a business tries to be all inclusive instead of just catering to the majority.  Of course if you're in the majority, you probably don't care about this but that is the problem.  Also, if a business does soemething that irritates me, I won't usually say something, *I will just quietly decide to take my business elsewhere next time I shop.[/QUOTE*]
> ...


----------



## Lycurgus (Dec 8, 2008)

Oh and I forgot to mention, the sign above the counter reads!

GOD BLESS AMERICA!


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 8, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> > I didn't say it was Merry Christmas that would offend me. I said "Also, if a business does soemething that irritates me".  That includes rude employees, not having enough sale items in stock, a restocking fee for returned items or ripping off customers with bait-and-switch advertising.  The point that went right over your head was that I won't always make my unhappiness known to the store - I'll just go to another store.  Sorry if that was too difficult a concept to grasp
> ...


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 8, 2008)

Lycurgus said:


> Honestly, if me saying Merry Christmas to you would offend you so much that you would want to correct me, instead of simply being nice in your own fashion as well, then YES, you should take your business else where, because chances are you would be asked to.



I wouldn't be offended by it but the fact remains that some people are.  In times of financial hardship for retailers, are you willing to turn away potential customers just so you can be self-righteous?
That's no way to run a successful business.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 8, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> I wouldn't be offended by it but the fact remains that some people are.  In times of financial hardship for retailers, are you willing to turn away potential customers just so you can be self-righteous?
> *That's no way to run a successful business.*






well, let's assume if his business is successful he knows how to run it!


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 8, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> we all knew exactly what you meant,, yep yep yep



I imagine everyone else did - you just couldn't resist being a smug asshole and jumping all over a statement that you misinterpreted.    Oh, and figure out how to use the quote tags.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 8, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> I imagine everyone else did - you just couldn't resist being a smug asshole and jumping all over a statement that you misinterpreted.    Oh, and figure out how to use the quote tags.







okay,,


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 8, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> [/B]
> 
> 
> 
> well, let's assume if his business is successful he knows how to run it!




You can ASSume all you like.  I see a pigheaded store owner losing customers.  He'll have plenty of opportunities to wish the unemployment clerk a Merry Christmas if that gets his rocks off.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 8, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> You can ASSume all you like.  I see a pigheaded store owner losing customers.  He'll have plenty of opportunities to wish the unemployment clerk a Merry Christmas if that gets his rocks off.




When I hear him complaining I'll be sympathetic to your pathetic!


----------



## catzmeow (Dec 8, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> The 'war on Christmas' isn't about some arbitrary greeting in a store, it's about the slow erosion of Christ from Christmas.  For Christians, Christmas is a holy day first and a holiday second.  For those who don't believe that, it's fine.  But the majority of this country is Christian and replacing 'Christmas' with 'Holidays' in everything diminishes the importance of Christmas (the religious aspect).  Some people want to pretend that Christmas is equal to Kwanzaa, that Christmas is equal to Hanukkah.  It isn't.  All Christians want is for Christ to remain in Christmas.  Is that so hard?  If you do not believe then pay no attention to the religious aspect and just enjoy the secular part of the season.
> 
> It seems to me that there is a determined effort by our culture to make this 'holiday' season all one big, happy picture - which in and of it'self is fine.  The problem with this is that in the process, Christ is trivialized and getting knocked out of the picture.  Posters on this thread knock Christmas (the religious part) constantly by bringing up the pagan aspects of Christmas, implying that these paganisms mean that Christmas isn't holy at all.  Whatever the history and background of Christmas, _today_ it is celebrated by vast majority of this country as a _religious celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ_.  They like to call Christianity just a myth.  Again, if you do not believe that's fine but why insult someone else's beliefs?



I would suggest to you that while the majority of this country is putatively Christian, the vast majority are secular in their lifestyles and practices.  Why is Christ being eroded from Christmas?  Because America is far less Christian than you believe.  

By the way, why do you NEED secular affirmation of your religious views?  Does the fact that you are not constantly reminded of Christ in Christmas impact your faith or make you believe less?

There is a church on every corner of this country.  Remind me again why you need even greater affirmation of the truth of your beliefs from outsiders.  It's so weirdly insecure.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 8, 2008)

[YOUTUBE]If1Cq3gVx9M&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 8, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> I would suggest to you that while the majority of this country is putatively Christian, the vast majority are secular in their lifestyles and practices.  Why is Christ being eroded from Christmas?  Because America is far less Christian than you believe.



If christ is being taken out of christmas, it is the fault of the christians celebrating it.  I still don't see how someone celebrating it as a secular holiday can ruin it for a very religious christian.  It smacks of "me,me,me,me"ism.


----------



## catzmeow (Dec 8, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> If christ is being taken out of christmas, it is the fault of the christians celebrating it.  I still don't see how someone celebrating it as a secular holiday can ruin it for a very religious christian.  It smacks of "me,me,me,me"ism.




I think he's just pouty because attendance at the Living Christmas Tree service is way, way down.  And, it's so disappointing to all the senior citizens in their green appliqued sweatshirts.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 8, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> I think he's just pouty because attendance at the Living Christmas Tree service is way, way down.  And, it's so disappointing to all the senior citizens in their green appliqued sweatshirts.



This whole complaint about christmas being taken away from christians is ridiculous and I can't get a straight answer out of any of them as to why they think there is such a war.  Sheila was the only one who outlined her specific complaints but when I asked her to show me where any of it was happening, she clammed up tighter than Pat Robertson's sphincter in a gay bar and ran away without answering.  Does anyone have any specfics as to how anyone is taking christmas away from christians?


----------



## Lycurgus (Dec 8, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> I wouldn't be offended by it but the fact remains that some people are.  In times of financial hardship for retailers, are you willing to turn away potential customers just so you can be self-righteous?
> That's no way to run a successful business.





Greeting people in a warm and happy way and accepting their same greetings in return, no matter how they express them, is being self righteous?

Go get a life. 

your searching for something to piss and moan about. 

By the way, the topic in this thread is Christmas and greetings, not all other types of complaints a person may have.


----------



## catzmeow (Dec 8, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> This whole complaint about christmas being taken away from christians is ridiculous and I can't get a straight answer out of any of them as to why they think there is such a war.  Sheila was the only one who outlined her specific complaints but when I asked her to show me where any of it was happening, she clammed up tighter than Pat Robertson's sphincter in a gay bar and ran away without answering.  Does anyone have any specfics as to how anyone is taking christmas away from christians?




Christ can NEVER be taken out of Christmas for someone who holds that within their heart.  However, this artificial need to have EVERYONE ELSE affirm your beliefs is just strange.

Will your god shrivel up and die if I don't acknowledge this as a spiritual holiday?


----------



## Lycurgus (Dec 8, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> You can ASSume all you like.  I see a pigheaded store owner losing customers.  He'll have plenty of opportunities to wish the unemployment clerk a Merry Christmas if that gets his rocks off.





Willow, as you can see, here is another one who simply can't enjoy themselves.

They are pissing and moaning about anything, most of all someone like me who not only greets people warmly, but, accepts all like greetings I get, no matter the political or religious implications. 

They want to argue just to argue. 

I would chase business away, business like them!


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 8, 2008)

Lycurgus said:


> Greeting people in a warm and happy way and accepting their same greetings in return, no matter how they express them, is being self righteous?
> 
> Go get a life.
> 
> ...





they have something to piss and moan about,, it's called Christmas..


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 8, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> I would suggest to you that while the majority of this country is putatively Christian, the vast majority are secular in their lifestyles and practices.  Why is Christ being eroded from Christmas?  Because America is far less Christian than you believe.



And you know this to be true by  . . . .?  



> By the way, why do you NEED secular affirmation of your religious views?



Not sure of your question.  You mean why do we need trees and gifts and santa?  So because we view Christmas as a holy day it means we cannot also enjoy it as a holiday?  



> Does the fact that you are not constantly reminded of Christ in Christmas impact your faith or make you believe less?



Not at all, catz.  What I'm saying is that by removing Christ from Christmas in the public forum (stores, commercials, etc.), Christmas loses it's religious meaning.  It gets lumped into Hanukka, Kwanzza, New Years and becomes 'just another holiday'.  It is not just another holiday, at least not to Christians.



> There is a church on every corner of this country.  Remind me again why you need even greater affirmation of the truth of your beliefs from outsiders.  It's so weirdly insecure.



You either didn't read or didn't understand my previous post.  Go back and reread the part where I worked at Kohl's.  

Insecure?  No, we just refuse to let Christ slip through the cracks no matter how hard some may want Him to.


----------



## Lycurgus (Dec 8, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> If christ is being taken out of christmas, it is the fault of the christians celebrating it.  I still don't see how someone celebrating it as a secular holiday can ruin it for a very religious christian.  It smacks of "me,me,me,me"ism.





no  .............. YOU smack of me, me, me'ism

because you want me (or anyone) to greet you in a particular way, instead of accepting mine gracefully and me accepting yours gracefully and learning to live and let live.

Your so petty you reek!


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 8, 2008)

Lycurgus said:


> Willow, as you can see, here is another one who simply can't enjoy themselves.
> 
> They are pissing and moaning about anything, most of all someone like me who not only greets people warmly, but, accepts all like greetings I get, no matter the political or religious implications.
> 
> ...





yes, I know,, and he thinks he knows without a shadow of a doubt that if you  continue to say "Merry Christmas" yer business will fail and you will be in the poor house.. I have never  so long or so hard in my life.. I know I know,, I'm easily entertained.


----------



## catzmeow (Dec 8, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> And you know this to be true by  . . . .?



Your bleating and moaning.  If there has been a loss of spiritual significance to this holiday, one can assume it bled away from Christianity.  It was never the role of secular society to prop up the church, it is the role of the church to infuse the world with spirituality.   Perhaps your light is in a bushel?



> Not at all, catz.  What I'm saying is that by removing Christ from Christmas in the public forum (stores, commercials, etc.), Christmas loses it's religious meaning.  It gets lumped into Hanukka, Kwanzza, New Years and becomes 'just another holiday'.  It is not just another holiday, at least not to Christians.



It isn't the public forum's job to sustain your religious beliefs.  

That responsibility lies upon you and your fellow church members.  It is the role of the public forum to cater to the marketplace, and that's precisely what it has done.  If public companies are selling more hannukah and kwanzaa and santa supplies, that's due to public demand, and not some kind of evil conspiracy.



> You either didn't read or didn't understand my previous post.  Go back and reread the part where I worked at Kohl's.



Of course I understood it.  You apparently need to have outsiders tell you how wonderful your faith is so you don't lose it is duly noted.



> Insecure?  No, we just refuse to let Christ slip through the cracks no matter how hard some may want Him to.



The rest of us aren't aggressively attacking christianity.  We simply don't care about your beliefs.  We aren't atheists, we're apatheists.  Don't know, don't care, now have some eggnog and string up some lights.

Any excuse for a party...


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 8, 2008)

Lycurgus said:


> I would chase business away, business like them!




Thanks for proving my point, there fella.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 8, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> Christ can NEVER be taken out of Christmas for someone who holds that within their heart.  *However, this artificial need to have EVERYONE ELSE affirm your beliefs is just strange.*
> Will your god shrivel up and die if I don't acknowledge this as a spiritual holiday?



You are turning the argument again.  _No one _is asking that you affirm our beliefs.  But in a country where the vast majority of people who celebrate Christmas believe it is the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ, why is it ok for the minority of non-believers to push their secular agenda and shove Christ aside?


----------



## Ravi (Dec 8, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> Thanks for proving my point, there fella.


Yep. But since his business centers around selling candles that smell like Jesus he's probably okay.


----------



## catzmeow (Dec 8, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> You are turning the argument again.  _No one _is asking that you affirm our beliefs.  But in a country where the vast majority of people who celebrate Christmas believe it is the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ, why is it ok for the minority of non-believers to push their secular agenda and shove Christ aside?



So, by telling someone happy holidays, a store clerk is shoving Jesus aside?

Tell me, what do you need from us in order to keep Christ in your Christmas, Zoom?  Do you need us to stand beside you, raising our hands in adoration?  Do you need me to put a manger scene in my front yard?  Do you need me to sing carols outside your house?

How can Christ possibly be shoved ANYWHERE in your heart, if you aren't doing the shoving?  I am completely at a loss to understand how Christians will somehow lose faith if the secular state doesn't endorse their views.


----------



## catzmeow (Dec 8, 2008)

Ravi said:


> Yep. But since his business centers around selling candles that smell like Jesus he's probably okay.



What part of Jesus, though?  I can't imagine that unbathed Jewish carpenter is a scent that people are beating down the doors for.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 8, 2008)

Lycurgus said:


> Greeting people in a warm and happy way and accepting their same greetings in return, no matter how they express them, is being self righteous?



No, demanding that you're always right regardless of what the customer wants is self-righteous, not to mention stupid.





> By the way, the topic in this thread is Christmas and greetings, not all other types of complaints a person may have.



So now you're dictating what I can and cannot post?  Someone mentioned retailers not getting any negative feedback from customers and I mentioned a situation where you might not get negative customer feedback and still lose a customer.  

I'll be sure to file a request form in triplicate with you next time I want to make a comment that you don't think is relevant.


----------



## Ravi (Dec 8, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> What part of Jesus, though?  I can't imagine that unbathed Jewish carpenter is a scent that people are beating down the doors for.


I think toes and grubby sandals is the basic fragrance. There is also one that smells of thorns and sweat.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 8, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> Lycurgus said:
> 
> 
> > Greeting people in a warm and happy way and accepting their same greetings in return, no matter how they express them, is being self righteous?{/quote]
> ...


----------



## catzmeow (Dec 8, 2008)

Ravi said:


> I think toes and grubby sandals is the basic fragrance. There is also one that smells of thorns and sweat.



Do you think he carries the hardcore metal scented version?


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 8, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> yes, I know,, and he thinks he knows without a shadow of a doubt that if you  continue to say "Merry Christmas" yer business will fail and you will be in the poor house..



You're not even comprehending what is being discussed here, are you?

If strawman arguments are all you have, then that speaks volumes about you.  Well, at least you got the synapses responsible for quoting tags to fire.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 8, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> Your bleating and moaning. * If *there has been a loss of spiritual significance to this holiday, *one can assume *it bled away from Christianity.  It was never the role of secular society to prop up the church, it is the role of the church to infuse the world with spirituality.   Perhaps your light is in a bushel?



Thank you for not answering the question. 



> It isn't the public forum's job to sustain your religious beliefs.



Never said it was.  It also isn't the public forum's job to ignore the religious importance of Christmas that the majority of Christians hold.  I'd think they would want to be all inclusive.



> That responsibility lies upon you and your fellow church members.  It is the role of the public forum to cater to the marketplace, and that's precisely what it has done.  If public companies are selling more hannukah and kwanzaa and santa supplies, that's due to public demand, and not some kind of evil conspiracy.



Evil conspiracy? 





> Of course I understood it.  You apparently need to have outsiders tell you how wonderful your faith is so you don't lose it is duly noted.



Once again, misreading, misunderstanding or intentionally playing dumb.  Go back and reread my posts.




> The rest of us aren't aggressively attacking christianity.  We simply don't care about your beliefs.  We aren't atheists, we're apatheists.  Don't know, don't care, now have some eggnog and string up some lights.



If you don't care then why so insistant that it be 'holidays' for all?  Why so reluctant to have Christ kept in Christmas?  If you truly don't care, why aren't you off having some eggnog yourself?  



> Any excuse for a party...



Yup and the biggest party will be celebrated on December 25.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 8, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> You are turning the argument again.  _No one _is asking that you affirm our beliefs.  But in a country where the vast majority of people who celebrate Christmas believe it is the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ, why is it ok for the minority of non-believers to push their secular agenda and shove Christ aside?



Can you give us an example where you think the secular agenda is pushing christ aside?  Is it something that is preventing YOU from celebrating the holiday in the manner that you like?


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 8, 2008)

so,, in conclusion.. there is no war on christmas and nobody is offended by Merry Christmas...



so merry merry christmas to each and everyone of youse!


----------



## catzmeow (Dec 8, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Thank you for not answering the question.



Lame.  I did answer the question.  thanks for the non-response, though. 



> Never said it was.  It also isn't the public forum's job to ignore the religious importance of Christmas that the majority of Christians hold.  I'd think they would want to be all inclusive.



I was in Target yesterday.  I saw plenty of Jesuses.  it seems like the public forum is allowing y'all plenty of latitude to make purchases of your choice.  There were also hannukah candles and some kwanzaa decorations.  Being part of the smorgasbord of choices isn't what you want, though, is it?  You need to be special, set apart, you're asking for different treatment, aren't you?



> If you don't care then why so insistant that it be 'holidays' for all?  Why so reluctant to have Christ kept in Christmas?  If you truly don't care, why aren't you off having some eggnog yourself?



I'm explaining why you have nothing to worry about.  As long as YOU keep Christ in Christmas, isn't that all that matters between you and God?



> Yup and the biggest party will be celebrated on December 25.




Says you.  My solstice party on the 20th will kick your party's ass.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 8, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> Says you.  My solstice party on the 20th will kick your party's ass.



Hey, I didn't get an invitation!
I promise I won't let Willow know where you live.
Seriously, an excellent series of posts from you


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 8, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> Can you give us an example where you think the secular agenda is pushing christ aside?



Changing 'Christmas' to 'holidays' - as in 'holiday tree', 'holiday parade'.  Not having a Nativity scene in any 'holiday' parade.  Never even saying the word 'Christmas' in advertising but always referring to it as 'holidays'.  This is where Christ is taken out of Christmas.  I know to you (meaning non-believers) this is a joke, a moot point.  But to a believer, it smacks us in the face.  I asked this before that if there was a Nativity scene in a parade would you be offended?  I believe you said no you wouldn't.  Then why is there an argument going on at all?  Who would it harm if this were in a parade?  Why completely eliminate the word 'Christmas' from everything at . . . . Christmas time?   Why is it ok to have it just be 'holiday' but not ok for it to be 'holiday' and 'Christmas'?  And no, I am NOT referring to some door greeter.  



> Is it something that is preventing YOU from celebrating the holiday in the manner that you like?



Please stop jumping back on the 'why do you Christians need public affirmation in order for you to have faith' wagon.  You continually like to turn the argument around and around.  Go back and really read the posts.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 8, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> *I would suggest *to you that while the majority of this country is putatively Christian, *the vast majority are secular in their lifestyles and practices*.  Why is Christ being eroded from Christmas?  *Because America is far less Christian than you believe*.
> 
> By the way, why do you NEED secular affirmation of your religious views?  Does the fact that you are not constantly reminded of Christ in Christmas impact your faith or make you believe less?
> 
> There is a church on every corner of this country.  Remind me again why you need even greater affirmation of the truth of your beliefs from outsiders.  It's so weirdly insecure.





catzmeow said:


> *Your bleating and moaning.  If there has been a loss of spiritual significance to this holiday, one can assume it bled away from Christianity. * It was never the role of secular society to prop up the church, it is the role of the church to infuse the world with spirituality.   Perhaps your light is in a bushel?
> 
> 
> 
> ...





catzmeow said:


> *Lame.  I did answer the question.  thanks for the non-response, though. *
> 
> 
> I was in Target yesterday.  I saw plenty of Jesuses.  it seems like the public forum is allowing y'all plenty of latitude to make purchases of your choice.  There were also hannukah candles and some kwanzaa decorations.  Being part of the smorgasbord of choices isn't what you want, though, is it?  You need to be special, set apart, you're asking for different treatment, aren't you?
> ...




Please provide links for the information bolded in your first and second quotes.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 8, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> So, by telling someone happy holidays, a store clerk is shoving Jesus aside?



This statement tells me that despite your telling me differently, you never did read or understand my post where I said I worked at Kohl's.  



> Tell me, what do you need from us in order to keep Christ in your Christmas, Zoom?  Do you need us to stand beside you, raising our hands in adoration?  Do you need me to put a manger scene in my front yard?  Do you need me to sing carols outside your house?



Nice trying to spin things around yet again.  We'd be thrilled if the word 'Christmas' was used _in conjunction _with 'holidays' in the public forum (I italicized the 'in conjunction' part so you will not be confused and spin this into some 'it has to be only Christmas' post later on).  And from what I've seen this season, it is being used more than in previous years.



> How can Christ possibly be shoved ANYWHERE in your heart, if you aren't doing the shoving?  I am completely at a loss to understand how Christians will somehow lose faith if the secular state doesn't endorse their views.



Again, turning the argument and not hearing what is being said.   Please go back and read my previous posts.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 8, 2008)

oh? so the war on Christmas continues???


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 8, 2008)

Willow, it will surely hit the 1,000 post by tomorrow morning!


----------



## catzmeow (Dec 8, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Changing 'Christmas' to 'holidays' - as in 'holiday tree', 'holiday parade'.  Not having a Nativity scene in any 'holiday' parade.  Never even saying the word 'Christmas' in advertising but always referring to it as 'holidays'.  This is where Christ is taken out of Christmas.  I know to you (meaning non-believers) this is a joke, a moot point.  But to a believer, it smacks us in the face.  I asked this before that if there was a Nativity scene in a parade would you be offended?  I believe you said no you wouldn't.  Then why is there an argument going on at all?  Who would it harm if this were in a parade?  Why completely eliminate the word 'Christmas' from everything at . . . . Christmas time?   Why is it ok to have it just be 'holiday' but not ok for it to be 'holiday' and 'Christmas'?  And no, I am NOT referring to some door greeter.
> 
> Please stop jumping back on the 'why do you Christians need public affirmation in order for you to have faith' wagon.  You continually like to turn the argument around and around.  Go back and really read the posts.



Why don't you enter a float with a nativity scene in the parade?  If you want to put Christ back into Christmas, rather than whining about how it is being taken out, do something to put it back in.  For instance, one local church here has a living nativity scene every year that draws tens of thousands of people.  And, if you are kept from having a float for religious reasons, that's discrimination.  I'd call the ACLU.  I bet they'd take your case.


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 8, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Changing 'Christmas' to 'holidays' - as in 'holiday tree', 'holiday parade'.  Not having a Nativity scene in any 'holiday' parade.  Never even saying the word 'Christmas' in advertising but always referring to it as 'holidays'.  This is where Christ is taken out of Christmas.  I know to you (meaning non-believers) this is a joke, a moot point.  But to a believer, it smacks us in the face.  I asked this before that if there was a Nativity scene in a parade would you be offended?  I believe you said no you wouldn't.  Then why is there an argument going on at all?  Who would it harm if this were in a parade?  Why completely eliminate the word 'Christmas' from everything at . . . . Christmas time?   Why is it ok to have it just be 'holiday' but not ok for it to be 'holiday' and 'Christmas'?  And no, I am NOT referring to some door greeter.
> 
> 
> 
> Please stop jumping back on the 'why do you Christians need public affirmation in order for you to have faith' wagon.  You continually like to turn the argument around and around.  Go back and really read the posts.



You also realize that by using the tree and most other aspects of christmas is also a smack in the face of many pagans right? Since many of the old pagan religions started all that. Difference is, instead of making a big issue out of small things then blowing it so far out of proportion, we are content to say say 'meh.' Most places still use the word christmas, so unless your area has a majority of people who don't WANT to call it (and now the majority ruling is a bad thing to you I see) then perhaps it may be so, but almost everywhere I have been or seen, this is NOT the case.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 8, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> Why don't you enter a float with a nativity scene in the parade?  If you want to put Christ back into Christmas, rather than whining about how it is being taken out, do something to put it back in.  For instance, one local church here has a living nativity scene every year that draws tens of thousands of people.  And, if you are kept from having a float for religious reasons, that's discrimination.  I'd call the ACLU.  I bet they'd take your case.



Catz, this is an excellent idea.  If my life permitted me to have the time to be involved in parades you can be sure I would be getting a Nativity float in there.  Maybe even a giant baby Jesus balloon. 

Excellent point about individuals putting Christ back in Christmas too.  I do this in my own small way by sending religious Christmas cards and by wishing people Merry Christmas.  I'm also on the lookout for a Nativity display I can put up outside but haven't found anything that works for me yet.  And like I said in a previous post, I've seen several Target commercials, two Victoria's Secret commericials, a handful of furniture commericials and several news stations (no, I'm not referring to Fox but to local news stations) all refer to 'Christmas' rather than 'holiday'.  It's really nice to hear it again.


----------



## catzmeow (Dec 8, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Catz, this is an excellent idea.  If my life permitted me to have the time to be involved in parades you can be sure I would be getting a Nativity float in there.  Maybe even a giant baby Jesus balloon.



Well, you can't bitch about what you aren't personally willing to do...



> Excellent point about individuals putting Christ back in Christmas too.  I do this in my own small way by sending religious Christmas cards and by wishing people Merry Christmas.  I'm also on the lookout for a Nativity display I can put up outside but haven't found anything that works for me yet.  And like I said in a previous post, I've seen several Target commercials, two Victoria's Secret commericials, a handful of furniture commericials and several news stations (no, I'm not referring to Fox but to local news stations) all refer to 'Christmas' rather than 'holiday'.  It's really nice to hear it again.



Can I recommend:

Outdoor NATIVITY SET SILHOUETTE-Lights-Wood-Yard Decor - eBay (item 350134356959 end time Dec-07-08 20:01:08 PST)


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 8, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> You also realize that by using the tree and most other aspects of christmas is also a smack in the face of many pagans right? Since many of the old pagan religions started all that. Difference is, instead of making a big issue out of small things then blowing it so far out of proportion, we are content to say say 'meh.'



Do pagans have dibs on trees and wreaths and the like?  I wasn't aware these things were trademarked.  Since pagan doesn't entail Christ, I'm not sure what the arguing point here would be.



> Most places still use the word christmas, so unless your area has a majority of people who don't WANT to call it (*and now the majority ruling is a bad thing to you I see*) then perhaps it may be so, but almost everywhere I have been or seen, this is NOT the case.



Again, I never once said it should be a majority of one thing or another.  Please go back and actually read my posts.  Just in a post to Catz, a few up from this one, I specifically italicized the words 'in conjunction' when referring to using the terms Christmas and holidays.  Go back and read my post where I said what I did when I worked at Kohl's.  Actually, in the quote of mine you responded to, I wrote "Why is it ok to have it just be 'holiday' but not ok for it to be 'holiday' and 'Christmas'?'  _Read _before you wrongly assume things about what I said.

And you're right, I have seen the word Christmas used more this year than in recent years.  Target, Victoria's Secret, furniture stores, local news -- all these things have referred to Christmas.  I've also heard it referred to as holidays as well.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 8, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> Well, you can't bitch about what you aren't personally willing to do...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Again,_ read _my post.  I said 'if my life permitted me to have the time . . . '.  You know nothing about me yet assume that I am not 'personally willing to do' anything.  And you're saying that I cannot voice my opinion because I cannot take action?  

Thanks for the link, I will look into . . . as my time permits.


----------



## catzmeow (Dec 8, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Again,_ read _my post.  I said 'if my life permitted me to have the time . . . '.  You know nothing about me yet assume that I am not 'personally willing to do' anything.  And you're saying that I cannot voice my opinion because I cannot take action?
> 
> Thanks for the link, I will look into . . . as my time permits.




I'm saying that if Christ has disappeared from Christmas, rather than blaming those of us who are secular, the believers should take ownership of the perceived problem and solve it themselves.

If you wait for me to put Christ back into Christmas, you're going to be waiting a long fucking time.


----------



## revolutionary (Dec 8, 2008)

As far as I'm concerned Christmas is an American tradition and if you don't like our traditions you can get out of our country.


----------



## catzmeow (Dec 8, 2008)

revolutionary said:


> As far as I'm concerned Christmas is an American tradition and if you don't like our traditions you can get out of our country.



As far as I'm concerned, if you aren't willing to uphold our constitution and bill of rights, the one created by our founding fathers, don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 8, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> I'm saying that if Christ has disappeared from Christmas, rather than blaming those of us who are secular, the believers should take ownership of the perceived problem and solve it themselves.



We are.  Of course, the seculars _are_ the ones who took Him out but . . . that's ok.  We'll put Christ back where He belongs.




> If you wait for me to put Christ back into Christmas, you're going to be waiting a long fucking time.



Not waiting for you, personally, to do anything.  You've made your point quite clear Catz.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 8, 2008)

Are we still having the war on Christmas?? I thought youse lefties said we aren't having a war on Christmas?? And, in addition didn't ya keep saying no one but absolutely no one is offended by "Merry Christmas"  





hypo  hypocrites,, that's what yez is!


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 8, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> Are we still having the war on Christmas?? I thought youse lefties said we aren't having a war on Christmas?? And, in addition didn't ya keep saying no one but absolutely no one is offended by "Merry Christmas"
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Okay, this time (since each time I just point it out to you you don't seem to get it) point to at least two posts that say they are offended when some says that ... otherwise admit you are NOT reading anything and just posting to rile things up.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 8, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> Okay, this time (since each time I just point it out to you you don't seem to get it) point to at least two posts that say they are offended when some says that ... otherwise admit you are NOT reading anything and just posting to rile things up.





so we can stop the war on Christmas??? No one is offended by "Merry Christmas" Am I reading this right??  Tell me the truth now!


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 8, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> so we can stop the war on Christmas??? No one is offended by "Merry Christmas" Am I reading this right??  Tell me the truth now!



As you can see from the posts here, there is no and never was a war on christmas.


----------



## seth1492 (Dec 8, 2008)

holidays are awesome... They are a great way to find happiness in this drab world!  I think we should celebrate more of them.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 8, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> As you can see from the posts here, there is no and never was a war on christmas.



okay so everybody is fine with Christmas?  That is so heartwarming to hear! I'm so proud of yez!


----------



## ABikerSailor (Dec 8, 2008)

Yep......I'm happy with Christmas........

Nothing like skinning an elf and barbequing a reindeer!


----------



## Old Rocks (Dec 8, 2008)

Happy Holidays and Merry Xmas to all


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 8, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> Are we still having the war on Christmas?? I thought youse lefties said we aren't having a war on Christmas?? And, in addition didn't ya keep saying no one but absolutely no one is offended by "Merry Christmas"
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Put the CHRIST back in Christmas and greet your non-Christian neighbors respectfully, hypocrite.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 8, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> Put the CHRIST back in Christmas and greet your non-Christian neighbors respectfully, hypocrite.





Hi,, you little dishonest soul! Where ya been all day??      we missed ya.


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 8, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> Hi,, you little dishonest soul! Where ya been all day??      we missed ya.



I hate Christmas.  If you want me to be happy, please wish me something else.

Bah humbug.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 8, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> I hate Christmas.  If you want me to be happy, please wish me something else.
> 
> Bah humbug.





this is an interesting about face! donchyathink?


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 8, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> this is an interesting about face! donchyathink?



I've wished you a Merry Christmas, many times.  I sincerely want you to be happy.


Now please wish me something else.   Thank you.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 8, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> I've wished you a Merry Christmas, many times.  I sincerely want you to be happy.
> 
> 
> Now please wish me something else.   Thank you.





I wish for you a better mood, spirit,, and happiness!


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 8, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> I wish for you a better mood, spirit,, and happiness!




Thank you.  I'll be in a better mood after Solstice.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 8, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> Thank you.  I'll be in a better mood after Solstice.






what??? you don't have it within you to find happiness?? it depends on a moon and sun?? wow?


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 8, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> what??? you don't have it within you to find happiness?? it depends on a moon and sun?? wow?



I hate Christmas.  Don't you want to know why?


----------



## Lycurgus (Dec 8, 2008)

HEY WILLOW ................

This mess is still going on?


MERRY CHRISTMAS - MERRY CHRISTMAS
MERRY CHRISTMAS - MERRY CHRISTMAS
MERRY CHRISTMAS - MERRY CHRISTMAS
MERRY CHRISTMAS - MERRY CHRISTMAS
MERRY CHRISTMAS - MERRY CHRISTMAS
MERRY CHRISTMAS - MERRY CHRISTMAS
MERRY CHRISTMAS - MERRY CHRISTMAS
MERRY CHRISTMAS - MERRY CHRISTMAS
MERRY CHRISTMAS - MERRY CHRISTMAS
MERRY CHRISTMAS - MERRY CHRISTMAS
.......& GOD BLESS!


----------



## Lycurgus (Dec 8, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> I hate Christmas.  Don't you want to know why?



HOLD ON, BEFORE YOU TELL LET ME FINISH


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 8, 2008)

I'll keep it to myself.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 8, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> As you can see from the posts here, there is no and never was a war on christmas.



Said at post #921 . . . . and counting.  

It's been pointed out numerous times where Christians feel there is a 'war on Christmas'.  You do not see it because you are a non-believer.  Go back and _actually read_ the posts made.  

Perhaps Sheila was right.  Better to bow out rather than continue inane snippets of nothingness that this thread continually dwindles down to.


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 8, 2008)

War on Christmas?  No.

War at Christmastime?  Yes.  Many places in the world are at war.  Why do people go to war?

Property--ownership.  This is MINE--my land, my religion, my beliefs, my water, my border, my boundary.  Me, me, me, me.

We forget we are all in the same boat.  We all want to be happy.  No one wants to suffer.  And yet, we all do things thinking it will make us happy and it doesn't lead to happiness.


----------



## InfiniteBeauty (Dec 8, 2008)

Long live Christmas tree's and decoration, the music on Christmas time his birth
I believe that one day the end of the World, or time will be in May...


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 8, 2008)

Origin of the Christmas Tree

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_tree


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 8, 2008)

The Prophet Jeremiah condemned as Pagan the ancient Middle Eastern practice of cutting down trees, bringing them into the home and decorating them. Of course, these were not really Christmas trees, because Jesus was not born until centuries later, and the use of Christmas trees was not introduced for many centuries after his birth. Apparently, in Jeremiah's time the "heathen" would cut down trees, carve or decorate them in the form of a god or goddess, and overlay it with precious metals. Some Christians feel that this Pagan practice was similar enough to our present use of Christmas trees that this passage from Jeremiah can be used to condemn both: 

Jeremiah 10:2-4: "Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not." (KJV).

All about the Christmas tree: Pagan origins, Christian adaptation and secular status

A friend of mine is a Christian and she does not celebrate Christmas at all because of the pagan roots of the customs.


----------



## Chris (Dec 8, 2008)

The Santa in red suit originated in a Coca Cola ad.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 9, 2008)

Originally Posted by catzmeow 
I'm saying that if Christ has disappeared from Christmas, rather than blaming those of us who are secular, the believers should take ownership of the perceived problem and solve it themselves.



Zoom-boing said:


> We are.  Of course, the seculars _are_ the ones who took Him out but . . . that's ok.  We'll put Christ back where He belongs.



How can secular people take christ out of your christmas celebration?  That is what I don't unerstand about your complaint.  If you want christ in your celebration, who is stopping you?


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 9, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> You do not see it because you are a non-believer.




Lame excuse.  We do not see it because you haven't given a reasonable explanation.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 9, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> Okay, this time (since each time I just point it out to you you don't seem to get it) point to at least two posts that say they are offended when some says that ... otherwise admit you are NOT reading anything and just posting to rile things up.



Don't waste your time with that Willow moron.  She is one of those childish "nyah nyah nyah" trolls.


----------



## strollingbones (Dec 9, 2008)

alrightie.....lets review this....first basic manners....dont be rude....if someone wishes you a  happy winter solstice...its perfectly acceptable to me....if that person replies....merry christmas....there is nothing wrong with happy holidays...damn look at my signature...i bet a bunch of us are wishing i just posted happy holidays lol


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 9, 2008)

Originally Posted by YWN666 View Post
Can you give us an example where you think the secular agenda is pushing christ aside?



Zoom-boing said:


> Changing 'Christmas' to 'holidays' - as in 'holiday tree', 'holiday parade'.  Not having a Nativity scene in any 'holiday' parade.  Never even saying the word 'Christmas' in advertising but always referring to it as 'holidays'.  This is where Christ is taken out of Christmas.  I know to you (meaning non-believers) this is a joke, a moot point.  But to a believer, it smacks us in the face.  I asked this before that if there was a Nativity scene in a parade would you be offended?  I believe you said no you wouldn't.  Then why is there an argument going on at all?  Who would it harm if this were in a parade?  Why completely eliminate the word 'Christmas' from everything at . . . . Christmas time?   Why is it ok to have it just be 'holiday' but not ok for it to be 'holiday' and 'Christmas'?  And no, I am NOT referring to some door greeter.



Perhaps the way christmas is celebrated is a reflection of the way religion is taking a less important role in people's lives so your issue is with christians, not secular folks.  If your not seeing religious displays the way YOU prefer them outside your home, then that is YOUR problem.  You want everyone to cater to YOUR wishes.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 9, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Catz, this is an excellent idea.  If my life permitted me to have the time to be involved in parades you can be sure I would be getting a Nativity float in there.  Maybe even a giant baby Jesus balloon.




Your not having time for it is the fault of the secular folks?


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 9, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> I hate Christmas.  Don't you want to know why?






not really,, It's enough just to know you hate it.. I feel badly for ya!


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 9, 2008)

WEll here we are on Tuesday Morning..


I want to wish Merry Merry Christmas to all those who celebrate Christmass.. Merry Merry Christmas.. I feel so happy and content today.. 



but


I gotta clean up this home!


----------



## catzmeow (Dec 9, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> We are.  Of course, the seculars _are_ the ones who took Him out but . . . that's ok.  We'll put Christ back where He belongs.



I actually don't believe this is true.  We never had Christ in Christmas in the first place, so it would have been impossible for us to remove him.  

But, I love how the agnostics and atheists serve as convenient scapegoats for all that is wrong with society.

"Oh, society started to go to hell in a handbasket when the atheists reared their nasty evil heads."

While you're at it, make sure you give proper credit to Madeline Murray O'Hare and the ACLU.

Do you not get that this is a pluralistic society, and always has been?  That's why our national slogan is "E Pluribus Unum":  out of many, ONE.  People who came from many races, creeds, and countries, willingly choosing to join together as one nation.  For the record, that idea predates the "In God We Trust" nonsense by at last 180 years.  

This is why Thomas Jefferson, one of the founding fathers, and the author of the Declaration of Independence, wrote in 1802:



> Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.



It should be duly noted that Jefferson himself, along with Thomas Paine, were ALSO primarily secular in their beliefs.  See, evil atheists were here, all along, and their rights are just as important as yours.

You have ALWAYS had the right to put Christ in your Christmas.  You just don't have the right to force OTHERS to do so.

This ain't rocket science, y'all.  If you, or your church, want to have a manger scene, MORE POWER TO YOU.  Your right to do this is protected by the First Amendment.  If you want to wish me Merry Christmas, by all means, do so.  I promise I won't be offended.  And, if I want to put dancing reindeer on my lawn to express my own views of the holiday season, and wish you a happy yule, or seasons greetings, or happy holidays, or merry solstice, then by gosh, I have the same right to do so.

What you don't have the right to do is to ask government to endorse a specific type of celebration of this holiday for other people, or force other people to celebrate in the manner of your choosing.  So, if you put a manger on the courthouse lawn, be prepared to accept a dancing Shiva or a whirling dervish, or a hannukah candle display right next to it.  That's how it works.

And, the marketplace is a reflection of this fact.  People celebrate in the manner OF THEIR CHOOSING.  If they haven't put Christ in Christmas, or if they choose to celebrate Hannukah, Yule, Eid or Kwanzaa instead, who are you to tell them that they are wrong or unAmerican?


That's the part I just don't understand about Christians.  You've ALWAYS had the right to celebrate this holiday AS YOU WISH.  Why is it so important for you that others celebrate in the same way?


----------



## catzmeow (Dec 9, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> so we can stop the war on Christmas??? No one is offended by "Merry Christmas" Am I reading this right??  Tell me the truth now!



I've never been offended by this.  Apparently, though, some Christians are offended when I wish them seasons greetings or happy holidays, though, because I am single-handedly responsible for "secularizing Christmas" by doing so.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 9, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> I've never been offended by this.  Apparently, though, some Christians are offended when I wish them seasons greetings or happy holidays.






I'm so glad to hear this,, so far that's the conclusion we've reached,, A. there is no war on Christmas, and B. no one is offended by saying "Merry Christmas" and  when you look at it there really is no reason whatsoever to take offense.. so have a very Merry Merry Christmas to all who celebrate Christmas,, Merry Merry Christmas..


----------



## catzmeow (Dec 9, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> I'm so glad to hear this,, so far that's the conclusion we've reached,, A. there is no war on Christmas, and B. no one is offended by saying "Merry Christmas" and  when you look at it there really is no reason whatsoever to take offense.. so have a very Merry Merry Christmas to all who celebrate Christmas,, Merry Merry Christmas..



And, don't worry about Skydancer.   If she chooses to reject your good wishes, it's on her.  Instead of choosing to become offended by the manner in which you wish you well, she could reciprocate with her own form of holiday greeting.    It's a choice to walk around pissed off all the time.


----------



## Lycurgus (Dec 9, 2008)

MERRY CHRISTMAS & GOD BLESS YOU!
MERRY CHRISTMAS & GOD BLESS YOU!
MERRY CHRISTMAS & GOD BLESS YOU!
MERRY CHRISTMAS & GOD BLESS YOU!
MERRY CHRISTMAS & GOD BLESS YOU!
MERRY CHRISTMAS & GOD BLESS YOU!
MERRY CHRISTMAS & GOD BLESS YOU!
MERRY CHRISTMAS & GOD BLESS YOU!
MERRY CHRISTMAS & GOD BLESS YOU!
MERRY CHRISTMAS & GOD BLESS YOU!
MERRY CHRISTMAS & GOD BLESS YOU!
MERRY CHRISTMAS & GOD BLESS YOU!
MERRY CHRISTMAS & GOD BLESS YOU!
MERRY CHRISTMAS & GOD BLESS YOU!
MERRY CHRISTMAS & GOD BLESS YOU!
MERRY CHRISTMAS & GOD BLESS YOU!
MERRY CHRISTMAS & GOD BLESS YOU!
MERRY CHRISTMAS & GOD BLESS YOU!
MERRY CHRISTMAS & GOD BLESS YOU!
MERRY CHRISTMAS & GOD BLESS YOU!

*Open your heart to your savior Jesus Christ.*


----------



## catzmeow (Dec 9, 2008)

Thanks, but I was born okay the first time.  And, my heart is already full.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 9, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> And, don't worry about Skydancer.   If she chooses to reject your good wishes, it's on her.  Instead of choosing to become offended by the manner in which you wish you well, she could reciprocate with her own form of holiday greeting.    It's a choice to walk around pissed off all the time.





I think SD is a guy!


----------



## catzmeow (Dec 9, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> I think SD is a guy!



SD is a lesbian, and clearly, she struggles with some anger issues.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 9, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> SD is a lesbian, and clearly, she struggles with some anger issues.





gotcha!


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 9, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> Originally Posted by catzmeow
> I'm saying that if Christ has disappeared from Christmas, rather than blaming those of us who are secular, the believers should take ownership of the perceived problem and solve it themselves.
> 
> 
> ...



Y - try going back an _actually reading _what I posted.  You continually try to spin this around and go back to the 'who is stopping you from celebrating Christmas' wagon.  



YWN666 said:


> Lame excuse.  We do not see it because you haven't given a reasonable explanation.



I've given explanation more times than I can count.  You refuse to acknowledge this and continually cry 'lame'.  Go back and read.



YWN666 said:


> Originally Posted by YWN666 View Post
> Can you give us an example where you think the secular agenda is pushing christ aside?
> 
> 
> ...



See this bolded statement?  This is exactly what I have NOT been saying.  I have repeatedly said to have both 'holidays' and 'Christmas', yet you continue to spin it into something else.  I can only surmise that your reading comprehension skills need work.




YWN666 said:


> Your not having time for it is the fault of the secular folks?



No and I never even implied this.  But again, you twist things around in order to distort.  Go back and _actually read what I wrote_.  




catzmeow said:


> I actually don't believe this is true.  We never had Christ in Christmas in the first place, so it would have been impossible for us to remove him.
> 
> But, I love how the agnostics and atheists serve as convenient scapegoats for all that is wrong with society.
> 
> ...



Nice rant.  Please point out where I ever, even once, stated anything about asking the government to endorse a specific type of celebration.  



> And, the marketplace is a reflection of this fact.  People celebrate in the manner OF THEIR CHOOSING.  If they haven't put Christ in Christmas, or if they choose to celebrate Hannukah, Yule, Eid or Kwanzaa instead, who are you to tell them that they are wrong or unAmerican?



Once again, you are misunderstanding or playing dumb.  All Christians want is for Christ to be kept in Christmas in the public forum, as Christ is what Christmas is all about.  In a country where the vast majority of people who celebrate Christmas believe it is the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ, why is it ok for the minority of non-believers to have everything just be 'holidays' and have nothing pertaining to Christ? (the 'have everything just be 'holidays' and nothing pertaining to Christ part is where we see Christ being shoved aside.)



> That's the part I just don't understand about Christians.  You've ALWAYS had the right to celebrate this holiday AS YOU WISH.  Why is it so important for you that others celebrate in the same way?



Once again you are either misunderstanding or not compreheding what is being said.  No one is saying that others must celebrate Christmas the same way.  I used the words 'in conjunction' in a past post in making this point specifically so that you would understand and stop posting false statements about Christians wanting it to be 'all or nothing', yet here you are once again posting that very thing.

Let's try this one last time.  In the public forum (and by public forum I DO NOT mean government, I mean stores, commercials, references to the season, etc.)   Should it be just 'holidays', lumping everything into one secular term?  No.  Should it be just 'Christmas', excluding anything secular? No.  Should it be 'holiday' AND 'Christmas', therefore including Christian and secular?  Yes.  

I can't possibly explain this to you any more.  If you want to continue to play dumb, you'll have to find someone else to play with.


----------



## catzmeow (Dec 9, 2008)

> Let's try this one last time.  In the public forum (and by public forum I DO NOT mean government, I mean stores, commercials, references to the season, etc.)   Should it be just 'holidays', lumping everything into one secular term?  No.  Should it be just 'Christmas', excluding anything secular? No.  Should it be 'holiday' AND 'Christmas', therefore including Christian and secular?  Yes.



Well, you're definitely off my solstice card list.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 9, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> All Christians want is for Christ to be kept in Christmas in the public forum, as Christ is what Christmas is all about.  In a country where the vast majority of people who celebrate Christmas believe it is the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ, *why is it ok for the minority of non-believers to have everything just be 'holidays' *



That just ain't happening.





> and have nothing pertaining to Christ? (the 'have everything just be 'holidays' and nothing pertaining to Christ part is where we see Christ being shoved aside.)



First it was a complaint that Happy Holidays was being used together with Merry Christmas.  Now you are upset that christ is not in the spotlight when christmas IS mentioned?  Whose fault is that?  Not non-believers.  The christians who celebrate christmas are the only ones who have the power to exclude christ and many of them do because the religious aspect of it isn't important to them.  Go complain to them instead of blaming it on non-believers.  Everyone celebrates christmas in a different way.  I still fail to understand why someone else's greeting or a store display bothers you because you would choose to do it differently?  You want christ and some don't.  Who are you to decide that your way is the only way?  I know you're going to say again that we don't understand what you're saying but I don't think that is the case.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 9, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Let's try this one last time.  In the public forum (and by public forum I DO NOT mean government, I mean stores, commercials, references to the season, etc.)   Should it be just 'holidays', lumping everything into one secular term?  No.  Should it be just 'Christmas', excluding anything secular? No.  Should it be 'holiday' AND 'Christmas', therefore including Christian and secular?  Yes.



I was just in the stores last night and I saw a huge number of displays that said "Merry Christmas" as well as "Happy Holidays".  The point you are missing is that no one is asking that Merry Christmas be eliminated and it _hasn't_ been eliminated.
If that is your complaint, then it is moot but I thought you were just complaining about Christmas displays that didn't mention christ.  Which is it?


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 9, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> I have repeatedly said to have both 'holidays' and 'Christmas', yet you continue to spin it into something else.  I can only surmise that your reading comprehension skills need work.
> 
> .





YWN666 said:


> First it was a complaint that Happy Holidays was being used together with Merry Christmas.



This sentence, once again, proves to me that you neither read nor comprehend what it is that I am saying and that you are wrong.  The original complaint wasn't that Happy Holidays was being used together with Merry Christmas, _the original complaint was that Christmas was dropped and everything became 'holidays'_.  What part of that do you simply not get?  



> Now you are upset that christ is not in the spotlight when christmas IS mentioned?



Please reference which post I implied this.  



> Whose fault is that?  Not non-believers.  *The christians who celebrate christmas are the only ones who have the power to exclude christ and many of them do because the religious aspect of it isn't important to them. * Go complain to them instead of blaming it on non-believers.  Everyone celebrates christmas in a different way.



Once again, for the umpteenth time, you change the argument and jump back to the 'why do Christians need affirmation of their faith from outsiders' bandwagon.  Try,  just try, to go back and read what I have previously posted.  




> I still fail to understand why someone else's greeting or a store display bothers you because you would choose to do it differently?  You want christ and some don't.  *Who are you to decide that your way is the only way?  I know you're going to say again that we don't understand what you're saying but I don't think that is the case*.




LOL and once again, YOU bring up the irrelevant store greeters.  Priceless. 

Again (and I gotta tell you, this is really getting old so _please try to comprend this very difficult concept _(that was sarcastic and I posted that it was sarcastic just in case you didn't get the sarcasim or decided to make some non-point about it):  

In the public forum (and by public forum I DO NOT mean government, I mean stores, commercials, references to the season, etc.)   *Should it be just 'holidays', lumping everything into one secular term?  No.  Should it be just 'Christmas', excluding anything secular? No.  Should it be 'holiday' AND 'Christmas', therefore including Christian and secular?  Yes.* 

Having it JUST be 'holiday' or JUST be 'Christmas' would have it be just one group's way.  Get it?  This is NOT what I am saying.  I am saying BOTH.  How you come to the conclusion that including 'holiday' AND 'Christmas' is having it be 'my way' is beyond logic.


----------



## catzmeow (Dec 9, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> This sentence, once again, proves to me that you neither read nor comprehend what it is that I am saying and that you are wrong.  The original complaint wasn't that Happy Holidays was being used together with Merry Christmas, _the original complaint was that Christmas was dropped and everything became 'holidays'_.  What part of that do you simply not get?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Maybe we would understand better if you typed a little louder.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 9, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> This sentence, once again, proves to me that you neither read nor comprehend what it is that I am saying and that you are wrong.



I wasn't saying it was YOUR complaint.  I was referring to the general war on christmas complaint that others make.



> The original complaint wasn't that Happy Holidays was being used together with Merry Christmas, _the original complaint was that Christmas was dropped and everything became 'holidays'_.  What part of that do you simply not get?



I get your complaint but I am telling you that this is not happening. 




> LOL and once again, YOU bring up the irrelevant store greeters.  Priceless.



I wasn't talking about store greeters, I was talking about an individual greeting you.  



> Having it JUST be 'holiday' or JUST be 'Christmas' would have it be just one group's way.  Get it?  This is NOT what I am saying.  I am saying BOTH.  How you come to the conclusion that including 'holiday' AND 'Christmas' is having it be 'my way' is beyond logic.



And I am telling you that is the way it is now so your point is  moot.  I never said that having both Happy Holiday and Merry Christmas is having it your way.  Maybe the problem here is YOUR poor reading comprehension.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 9, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> I wasn't saying it was YOUR complaint.  I was referring to the general war on christmas complaint that others make.



Since you posted this to me I believed you were stating that this is what I said.  




> I get your complaint but I am telling you that this is not happening.



I disagree.  In the past many years I have heard Christmas less and less and have heard it replaced with holiday instead.  You know when they show the five day weather forcast on tv and on Christmas they put up a picture?  When I was a kid they used to put up a picture of the baby Jesus in a manger.  That changed -- I really don't know when -- but it changed to Santa instead.  Maybe a tree or candy cane, but I never see any religious reference to Christmas day.  Now that may seem small in insignificant to you because you do not believe in Christ.  But can't you see how even that small (to you) thing just might seem like Christ is slowly being booted from Christmas?  Combine that with the term Christmas being replaced with holidays (holiday trees, holiday parades, holiday lights, holiday whatever) and, at least from our point of view, yes it does feel as if Christ is being shoved aside.  Is it too much to have a picture of the Babe on that weather calendar along with a tree and Santa?  They always show a menorah during Hanukkah, why the lack of Jesus during Christmas?

I said this way earlier in this thread.  As a non-believer I don't expect you to see this type of erosion.  As a believer, I see it very much.  And as I also stated several times, this year I have heard both Christmas and holidays used in several different venues.  Would I like to see a little more of the religious  aspect in the public forum?  Yes.  Would I want it to just be religious and nothing else?  No.  Would I want it to just be secular?  No.


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Dec 9, 2008)

Okay, folks.  How about THIS story for a war on Christmas?

Through the month of December new &#8220;holiday&#8221; ads will appear on buses around Washington DC that read &#8220;Why believe in God? Just be good for goodness sake&#8221;. 

The ads came from the American Humanist Association (AHA), &#8220;Being a Humanist means trying to behave decently without expectation of rewards or punishment after you are dead,&#8221; says AHA quoting Kurt Vonnegut. 

DC Metro spokesperson Candace Smith told The Examiner &#8220;As a public agency, Metro must observe the First Amendment with respect to the acceptance of commercial advertising&#8221;. 

&#8220;Although we understand that feelings and perceptions will vary among individuals within the community, we cannot reject advertising because an individual, or group, finds it inappropriate or offensive,&#8221; said Smith.

Uh huh.  I'll just BET that's their policy.  Anyone think they'd accept a counter ad that said, "Why be an atheist?  They're all going to Hell"?

As I asked my husband while reading this article, do you think when they hired that spokeswoman, they actually advertised for a "bullshit artist"?


----------



## Steerpike (Dec 9, 2008)

Cecilie1200 said:


> DC Metro spokesperson Candace Smith told The Examiner As a public agency, Metro must observe the First Amendment with respect to the acceptance of commercial advertising.



The spokesperson is correct.

Whether they'd take the counter-ad or not, I don't know.  But if they didn't, it would be the rejection of the counter-ad, not the acceptance of the ads reported in the story, that would be the problem.


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## WillowTree (Dec 9, 2008)

Breaking News | Latest News | Current News - FOXNews.com






 oh! the effen outrage of saying Christmas.. ohhhhhh!


----------



## catzmeow (Dec 9, 2008)

Cecilie1200 said:


> Okay, folks.  How about THIS story for a war on Christmas?
> 
> Through the month of December new holiday ads will appear on buses around Washington DC that read Why believe in God? Just be good for goodness sake.
> 
> ...



DC agencies are often bombarded with partisan advertising.  If they accept an advertisement for a local church, they have to accept this ad.  it's a matter of free speech.

And, if you don't like these ads, do what I do whenever I see churches advertising:  ignore it.


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## Steerpike (Dec 9, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> DC agencies are often bombarded with partisan advertising.  If they accept an advertisement for a local church, they have to accept this ad.  it's a matter of free speech.
> 
> And, if you don't like these ads, do what I do whenever I see churches advertising:  ignore it.



If you are a city official in a position like this, you are in a no-win situation.  If you turn down the Humanist ad, you are on shaky Constitutional ground and risk a lawsuit, which costs the city taxpayers a bunch of money to defend.  If you allow the ad, people who think the Constitution only protects their viewpoint are up in arms.


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## catzmeow (Dec 9, 2008)

Steerpike said:


> If you are a city official in a position like this, you are in a no-win situation.  If you turn down the Humanist ad, you are on shaky Constitutional ground and risk a lawsuit, which costs the city taxpayers a bunch of money to defend.  If you allow the ad, people who think the Constitution only protects their viewpoint are up in arms.



The christians amuse me when they think that free speech only applies to them.


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## WillowTree (Dec 9, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> The christians amuse me when they think that free speech only applies to them.





what amuses me is when everybody denies there is a war on Christmas! wink wink nod nod and smile and bob!


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## Zoom-boing (Dec 9, 2008)

Cecilie1200 said:


> Okay, folks.  How about THIS story for a war on Christmas?
> 
> Through the month of December new holiday ads will appear on buses around Washington DC that read Why believe in God? Just be good for goodness sake.
> 
> ...



Actually, the ad reads 'Why believe in a god?  Just be good for goodness sake', not 'why believe in God'.  To me, there is a difference in this but maybe not to others. 

If they don't allow this, then they don't allow those God billboards either.  Freedom of speech applies to everyone.  I don't agree with what the KKK spews but I'd defend their _right _to say it.  

As for the ad . . . my guess is it was worded like this to spark debate and get them noticed.  Seems they hired themselves some smart marketing types because it worked.  Personally, I'd have been more intriqued if they just said 'be good for goodness sake'.  I'd want to know what was the idea or business or whatever behind it.


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## KittenKoder (Dec 9, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Actually, the ad reads 'Why believe in a god?  Just be good for goodness sake', not 'why believe in God'.  To me, there is a difference in this but maybe not to others.
> 
> If they don't allow this, then they don't allow those God billboards either.  Freedom of speech applies to everyone.  I don't agree with what the KKK spews but I'd defend their _right _to say it.
> 
> As for the ad . . . my guess is it was worded like this to spark debate and get them noticed.  Seems they hired themselves some smart marketing types because it worked.  Personally, I'd have been more intriqued if they just said 'be good for goodness sake'.  I'd want to know what was the idea or business or whatever behind it.



Actually, the ad seems like a damned good idea to me. Why not just be good regardless of having religion or lack thereof. I know many who are very religious (most in the christian faith but others as well) who are not good because they think they are already 'safe' from their evils just by believing.


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## tigerbob (Dec 9, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Personally, I'd have been more intriqued if they just said 'be good for goodness sake'.  I'd want to know what was the idea or business or whatever behind it.



Doubt it.  If you did, you'd be in the minority.


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## KittenKoder (Dec 9, 2008)

tigerbob said:


> Doubt it.  If you did, you'd be in the minority.



Actually, not really. The most successful advertising campaigns give one catch phrase (often one that can go either way) and a link to a website. They get millions of hits from just that tactic. So he wouldn't be in the minority in this case.


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## tigerbob (Dec 9, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> Actually, not really. The most successful advertising campaigns give one catch phrase (often one that can go either way) and a link to a website. They get millions of hits from just that tactic. So he wouldn't be in the minority in this case.



I wasn't making a generalization.  I was talking about a piece of ambient media that gives a single line (Be good for goodness sake) being unlikely to generate much response.  So he would be in the minority in this case.


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## KittenKoder (Dec 9, 2008)

tigerbob said:


> I wasn't making a generalization.  I was talking about a piece of ambient media that gives a single line (Be good for goodness sake) being unlikely to generate much response.  So he would be in the minority in this case.



Oh, well true. The ads that do generally have little debate over them and even though they generate a lot more hits, they don't generally get much discussion. Sorry I misread what you were saying.


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## tigerbob (Dec 9, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> Oh, well true. The ads that do generally have little debate over them and even though they generate a lot more hits, they don't generally get much discussion. Sorry I misread what you were saying.



Possibly because I didn't express it that clearly.


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## YWN666 (Dec 9, 2008)

Cecilie1200 said:


> Okay, folks.  How about THIS story for a war on Christmas?
> 
> Through the month of December new holiday ads will appear on buses around Washington DC that read Why believe in God? Just be good for goodness sake.
> 
> ...




How is an ad saying "why believe in a god?" a war on Xmas?  It says nothing about Xmas.


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## Zoom-boing (Dec 9, 2008)

tigerbob said:


> Doubt it.  If you did, you'd be in the minority.




I heard about this over a month ago and my gut reaction was 'I'd be more curious if they'd left out the god part'.  I don't pay much attention to advertising in general . . .   Perhaps I would be in the minority; works for me.


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## WhiteLion (Dec 9, 2008)

Chris said:


> sky dancer said:
> 
> 
> > Buddha is a dried bear turd.
> ...


----------



## tigerbob (Dec 9, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> I heard about this over a month ago and my gut reaction was 'I'd be more curious if they'd left out the god part'.  I don't pay much attention to advertising in general . . .   Perhaps I would be in the minority; works for me.



If you've remembered it for a month, then you are indeed the exception to the rule.


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## catzmeow (Dec 10, 2008)

Went to my daughter's high school Christmas concert last night.  Of 14 songs performed, 100% were related to Christmas, and 9 of the 14 were religious in nature (carols, traditional religious songs).  Sounds like Christmas is alive and well in this part of America.

I was only offended that they didn't perform the Hallelujah Chorus, as that is one of my favorite songs to hear during this season.


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## sky dancer (Dec 10, 2008)

_The "war on Christmas" traces back, historically, to Calvinist bans on the celebration of Christmas which began in Geneva and then migrated, with the spread of Calvinist theological views, to Scotland, where Christmas was banned in 1583. As Amy McNeese writes, in an article first published in the Church of Scotland magazine, Life & Work that may be one of the best treatments of the War on Christmas, in an historical account of the Scottish ban on Christmas that only was lifted in the 1950's,  

"For almost 400 years, Christmas was banned in Scotland. At the height of the Reformation, in 1583, when anything smacking of Catholicism and idolatrous excess was thrown out with contempt, Christmas and all its trappings was wiped off the official calendar...
...Reinforced by the hard arm of the law, this was a ban that had bite...

This was an age when religious belief could mean the difference between life and a very nasty death....

Scottish Presbyterians, when called on for support by the Puritans of the English Parliament in 1644, did so on the understanding that their allies would in exchange impose the ban on Christmas. For over a decade traditional English Christmas festivities were prohibited

From Scotland, the ban on Christmas spread briefly, as Oliver Cromwell's New Model Army brought the Cromwellian revolution to England. Cromwell's Puritans banned Christmas in England for about a decade but the measure was unpopular. Feelings among pro and anti Christmas advocates ran strong and, after a second enforcement act against Christmas was passed by the English Parliament in 1647, 

By the America of the early 1960's, American Christian right groups such as Billy James Hargis' Christian Crusade, which was at least heavily Christian nationalist if not overtly theocratic, had appropriated the notion of a "war on Christmas" as a means of red-baiting the American left (see section, below). But the true, historical War on Christmas was a creation of the Protestant, theocratic right. 

_Talk To Action | Reclaiming Citizenship, History, and Faith

It is Christians themselves who started a war on Christmas.


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## sky dancer (Dec 10, 2008)

How the War on Christmas plays in Britain:

_"Well, it looks like the "war on Christmas" is a quite deliberate ploy by a loud minority of religious traditionalists trying to claim more cultural clout than today's largely secular society entitles them to. 

"There's something very complicated going on here," says Terry Sanderson, president of the National Secular Society. "It has to do with the contest between Christianity and Islam: Christians are becoming very alarmed about the progress they see Islam making in this country, and they fear their own festivals will be overwhelmed. I was doing a phone-in the other day, and everybody who rang in was saying, 'They're banning Christmas!' So I said: 'Who? Where? Who's standing outside a church saying you can't go in? Who's coming and knocking on your door at 6am and asking if there's a nativity set in your house?' It's quite dangerous, I think, to incite this kind of resentment against a perceived enemy." 

This year, though, the defenders of Christmas aren't only invoking the fear that nebulous Muslim forces might be about to obliterate Britain's traditional religion. Simultaneously, they have also aligned themselves with Muslim groups, arguing that the real enemy is secularisation. It's a position well-crafted for the historical moment, and for the currently fashionable notion of Britain as comprised of groups defined above all by their faith (even though barely 10% of us regularly attend any kind of religious service). 

Unsurprisingly, the War-On-Christmas panic is not indigenously British, but, like many forms of religious chest-beating, imported from the Colonies, in this case, America and its culture war: _

_Then, last year, the War on Christmas received a massive boost when it exploded on to the American political landscape, thanks primarily to two Fox News anchormen, John Gibson and Bill O'Reilly. Gibson had a vested interest, having just published a book entitled The War On Christmas: How The Liberal Plot To Ban The Sacred Christian Holiday Is Worse Than You Thought. (A note in the interests of full disclosure: O'Reilly, as I enjoy telling people whenever possible, accused me of "spout[ing] incredible nonsense" earlier this year after I wrote a story about a speech in which he invited al-Qaida to attack the liberal stronghold of San Francisco; previously, he had speculated that the Guardian "might be edited by Osama bin Laden".) _
The Null Device: items for tags theocrats


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## sky dancer (Dec 10, 2008)

War on Christmas connected to a white nationalist:

_"The Christmas kulturkampf is a growth industry in a shrinking economy, providing an effective boost for conservative fundraising and a ratings bonanza for right-wing media. So who was the genius that created it? To find the answer, a visit with the ghost of conservatism&#8217;s past is in order.

Back during the culture wars of the 1990s, Peter Brimelow, then a Fortune magazine editor, grew incensed with the increasing use of the phrase &#8220;Happy Holidays&#8221; by retailers like Amazon.com. &#8220;I just got real interested in the issue,&#8221; Brimelow told The Daily Beast, &#8220;because I noticed over the years there was this social shift taking place where people no longer said &#8216;Merry Christmas.&#8217;&#8221;

*In his 1995 book, Alien Nation, Brimelow argued that the influx of &#8220;weird aliens with dubious habits&#8221; from developing nations was eroding America&#8217;s white Christian &#8220;ethnic core,&#8221; and in turn, sullying its cultural underpinnings. The War on Christmas was, in his view, a particularly pernicious iteration of the multicultural &#8220;struggle to abolish America.*&#8221;

Brimelow founded what would become the internet&#8217;s leading anti-immigration web journal, VDare.com, named for the first British child born in the Americas. Brimelow&#8217;s new venture provided a forum to allies like Jared Taylor, a white supremacist publisher, and Kevin MacDonald, an evolutionary psychology professor who has argued that Jews are genetically equipped to out-compete Gentiles for resources and power. In 2003, four years after VDare&#8217;s founding, the Southern Poverty Law Center classified the journal as a &#8220;hate group.&#8221;_
The White Nationalist Behind Bill O'Reilly's War on Christmas | | AlterNet


----------



## ABikerSailor (Dec 10, 2008)

You know, the war on Christmas is kind of a myth, invented by overblown egos of the various blowhard idiots that are running around trying to make a name for themselves.  Kinda like Rosie O'Donnell does when she picks a fight.  All she (and they) are doing is trying to use that as a way to garner fame.

As far as religious commercials asking why believe in God?  Nothing wrong with that at all, especially since it is written in the Torah as well as various places in the Bible that God WANTS us to question the answers, as well as verify we're getting our information from the real Man Himself.  Need an example?  Look no farther than the story of Abraham, who was told to do some pretty outlandish things, as well as had to take heat for listening to the One True God.  You know, I kinda think that EVERYONE should ask themselves that question.  Because, if you ask that, then God will truly know if you believe in Him or not.  And......for the record......belief is a VERY strong and powerful thing.  Ask Asimov or Einstein about their thought experiments sometime.

My favorite religious commercials?  The ones for the United Way Methodist Church.  You know......the ones where people start following strings and trails up to the top of a mountain?  And.....they accept anyone as well as any belief in who God is to you.


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## Cecilie1200 (Dec 10, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Actually, the ad reads 'Why believe in a god?  Just be good for goodness sake', not 'why believe in God'.  To me, there is a difference in this but maybe not to others.
> 
> If they don't allow this, then they don't allow those God billboards either.  Freedom of speech applies to everyone.  I don't agree with what the KKK spews but I'd defend their _right _to say it.
> 
> As for the ad . . . my guess is it was worded like this to spark debate and get them noticed.  Seems they hired themselves some smart marketing types because it worked.  Personally, I'd have been more intriqued if they just said 'be good for goodness sake'.  I'd want to know what was the idea or business or whatever behind it.



No one has to "allow" the God billboards.  Those billboards are private property, where the buses are city property.

And the freedom of speech question here is, would the city feel the same "First Amendment" compulsion to rent out for the opposite message, or is it only messages offensive to religious people?

Your "guess" is that it's worded like that to spark debate?  Gee, y'think?  There might be a slim possibility they were trying to make waves and cause problems?  I wish I'd considered that.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 11, 2008)

Cecilie1200 said:


> No one has to "allow" the God billboards.  Those billboards are private property, where the buses are city property.
> 
> And the freedom of speech question here is, would the city feel the same "First Amendment" compulsion to rent out for the opposite message, or is it only messages offensive to religious people?
> 
> Your "guess" is that it's worded like that to spark debate?  Gee, y'think?  There might be a slim possibility they were trying to make waves and cause problems?  I wish I'd considered that.



I wasn't aware those God billboards were on private property.

If a 'Believe in a god' type bus ad were proposed to the city, I'd think the city would have to rent out the space for this message as well.  Are you upset over the message or because the message is on city property or both?  Should either one of these types of messages even be on city property?  Is there a rule for separation of non-church and state?  

Yup, my guess is that they did it to spark controversy and draw attention.  Their ad people are pretty clever because they've succeeded in doing just that.


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 11, 2008)

Cecilie1200 said:


> No one has to "allow" the God billboards.  Those billboards are private property, where the buses are city property.
> 
> And the freedom of speech question here is, would the city feel the same "First Amendment" compulsion to rent out for the opposite message, or is it only messages offensive to religious people?
> 
> Your "guess" is that it's worded like that to spark debate?  Gee, y'think?  There might be a slim possibility they were trying to make waves and cause problems?  I wish I'd considered that.



*rae* What cities are buses city property? Here they are owned by Seattle Metro, a private organization. The term 'public' transportation means it is offered to the public not that it is publicly owned and operated. They are still private property.


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## Zoom-boing (Dec 11, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> *rae* What cities are buses city property? Here they are owned by Seattle Metro, a private organization. The term 'public' transportation means it is offered to the public not that it is publicly owned and operated. They are still private property.



Good point.  I wonder who owns those buses that have the advertising.

BTW, what does *rae* mean?


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 11, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Good point.  I wonder who owns those buses that have the advertising.
> 
> BTW, what does *rae* mean?



Raise An Eyebrow (the cartoon 'huh?')

I don't think that any city actually owns the buses anywhere in the US. I know in Seattle they are all privately owned and maintained by Seattle Metro, a company we invited to come in and give us public transportation. Even our soon to be new lightrail is still going to be operated and owned by Metro, we are only paying for the tracks since those are going on actual public property, but the trains will be Metro and Sound Transit property.


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## del (Dec 11, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> *rae* What cities are buses city property? Here they are owned by Seattle Metro, a private organization. The term 'public' transportation means it is offered to the public not that it is publicly owned and operated. They are still private property.



seattle metro is not a private organization; it's publicly owned and operated by King County. most large urban transit systems are publicly owned as they traditionally lose money and require subsidies from the govt.


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## KittenKoder (Dec 11, 2008)

del said:


> seattle metro is not a private organization; it's publicly owned and operated by King County. most large urban transit systems are publicly owned as they traditionally lose money and require subsidies from the govt.



That would be news to the people here, even to Metro, which makes almost all its decisions on its own without even asking. The subsidies they get are for the 'ride free' zone in downtown, a deal worked out between the city and Metro many ... many ... many years ago. Seattle is even looking to have the zone extended but the gas crisis put that on hold. They are still a separate entity no matter how you look at it, and that is what makes them privately owned.


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## del (Dec 11, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> That would be news to the people here, even to Metro, which makes almost all its decisions on its own without even asking. The subsidies they get are for the 'ride free' zone in downtown, a deal worked out between the city and Metro many ... many ... many years ago. Seattle is even looking to have the zone extended but the gas crisis put that on hold. They are still a separate entity no matter how you look at it, and that is what makes them privately owned.




 king county govt is a separate entity, and that makes it privately owned? okay. whatever you say.........

A Tradition of Performance - King County Department of Transportation


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## KittenKoder (Dec 11, 2008)

del said:


> king county govt is a separate entity, and that makes it privately owned? okay. whatever you say.........
> 
> A Tradition of Performance - King County Department of Transportation



No, the Metro busses are. Our city doesn't actually spend money to put them on the fleet, nor do we maintain them. Our taxes do not fund them except in the Ride Free Zone. That is what makes Metro a private business. The fares they collect are what pays for everything. The fleet is increased by companies that have invested money in it most of the time. They just announce such an increase recently because of the profits they made last year combined with the increased ridership. It was not a vote, it was not our city, it was their profits.


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## Ravi (Dec 11, 2008)

YES!!! Post #1,000 is mine.

Give it up, people. I've won the war on Xmas.


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## catzmeow (Dec 11, 2008)

Ravi said:


> YES!!! Post #1,000 is mine.
> 
> Give it up, people. I've won the war on Xmas.


Sucka MC.  *DENIED.*

On topic:
Give it a rest, people.  IT DOESN'T MATTER if the advertising space is publicly or privately owned, if they accept religious advertising, they have to accept ANTI-religious advertising.  Just because it offends your little baby Jesus loving hearts, them's the facts.  They cannot apply one standard to one group, and a different standard to another group just because the Christians can't bear to see a message critical of their beliefs.  They'd get sued and it would cost everyone in your city money.

So, avert your eyes if you must.  That's what the grownups do.


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 11, 2008)

Ravi said:


> YES!!! Post #1,000 is mine.
> 
> Give it up, people. I've won the war on Xmas.



LOL ... sorry to post faster.


----------



## Ravi (Dec 11, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> LOL ... sorry to post faster.


Damn it! The post count in on the page tally is different than the actual post count.

I smell a plot.


----------



## AllieBaba (Dec 11, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> Sucka MC.  *DENIED.*
> 
> On topic:
> Give it a rest, people.  IT DOESN'T MATTER if the advertising space is publicly or privately owned, if they accept religious advertising, they have to accept ANTI-religious advertising.  Just because it offends your little baby Jesus loving hearts, them's the facts.  They cannot apply one standard to one group, and a different standard to another group just because the Christians can't bear to see a message critical of their beliefs.  They'd get sued and it would cost everyone in your city money.
> ...



Er..no, they don't. It's up to the people who own the space. If they want to rent to religious advertisers, then choose not to rent space to anti-Christian idiots, that's their privilege and their right.


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 11, 2008)

Ravi said:


> Damn it! The post count in on the page tally is different than the actual post count.
> 
> I smell a plot.



Oooh ... a new conspiracy?


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Dec 13, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> I wasn't aware those God billboards were on private property.



Yes.  Billboards are private property.  Typically, they are owned by a private company, which rents them out for the ads that go up on them.  In my city, virtually all the billboards are owned by ClearChannel Communications.



Zoom-boing said:


> If a 'Believe in a god' type bus ad were proposed to the city, I'd think the city would have to rent out the space for this message as well.  Are you upset over the message or because the message is on city property or both?  Should either one of these types of messages even be on city property?  Is there a rule for separation of non-church and state?



I find the message juvenile and childishly offensive, taken out primarily for the purpose of picking a fight and being unpleasant to people the advertisers dislike.  It's the advertisement version of a teenager using foul language at the Thanksgiving table just to get a rise out of his parents.  And I find the city's response suspicious and self-servingly hypocritical, insofar as I don't think for a second that they would feel any of the same pompous "commitment to the First Amendment" if the situation were reversed.

I don't think the city should accept either ad, frankly.  I think a true commitment to the First Amendment, not to mention public decency and the needs of ALL its constituents, would require the city to say, "We're not in the business of taking ads for the purpose of being offensive."  If the American Humanist Association wants a recruitment ad, then I have no problem with them buying space on the buses to say, "Join the American Humanist Association", and if a church wants to put up a recruitment ad, I have no problem with one that says, "Come to [fill in the blank] church."  Ads for the purpose of picking a fight don't belong on public, taxpayer-funded property.



Zoom-boing said:


> Yup, my guess is that they did it to spark controversy and draw attention.  Their ad people are pretty clever because they've succeeded in doing just that.



Which doesn't make it any less contemptible.


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 13, 2008)

Billboard power!

http://www.moreinspiration.com/Innovation.aspx?id=2009


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Dec 13, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Good point.  I wonder who owns those buses that have the advertising.
> 
> BTW, what does *rae* mean?



I believe the story said that DC Metro is actually a city-run proposition.  Not all city bus systems are subsidized by taxpayer money, but I think most are.  I know my own city was forced to take over the bus system in order to keep it running, because the previous managers ran it into the ground.

Either way, though, I still find the whole sententious "First Amendment" thing to be highly suspect, and most likely hypocritical bullshit, because I really doubt they'd feel any compulsion to accept an ad that was diametrically opposite.


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Dec 13, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> Sucka MC.  *DENIED.*
> 
> On topic:
> Give it a rest, people.  IT DOESN'T MATTER if the advertising space is publicly or privately owned, if they accept religious advertising, they have to accept ANTI-religious advertising.  Just because it offends your little baby Jesus loving hearts, them's the facts.  They cannot apply one standard to one group, and a different standard to another group just because the Christians can't bear to see a message critical of their beliefs.  They'd get sued and it would cost everyone in your city money.
> ...



Yeah, except DENIED!  No one ever said they DO accept religious advertising, much less religious advertising deliberately aimed at being insulting and offensive to others.  That's the entire question, and one you're trying to dodge by pretending YOU are the one in the position to be outraged about double standards.

Talk to me about "what grownups do" when an ad goes up claiming that all atheists are going to Hell.  Or, for that matter, talk to me about averting your eyes like a grownup on any of the numerous occasions that atheists have felt compelled to sue simply because Christians DARED to put something religious where their tender eyes had to encounter it.  Put a manger scene on public property, and see how "grownup" the atheists are about "averting their eyes".  THAT is a lawsuit waiting to happen, and it's not even an insult.  But take out an ad that's the verbal equivalent of slapping Christians in the face, and we get these hypocritical, self-righteous lectures about "grownups" and "tolerance".

Spare me.


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Dec 13, 2008)

AllieBaba said:


> Er..no, they don't. It's up to the people who own the space. If they want to rent to religious advertisers, then choose not to rent space to anti-Christian idiots, that's their privilege and their right.



Actually, I think private advertisers can be sued for discriminating on the basis of religion, just like they can for refusing solely on the basis of race.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 13, 2008)

Cecilie1200 said:


> Yeah, except DENIED!  No one ever said they DO accept religious advertising, much less *religious advertising deliberately aimed* at being insulting and offensive to others.  That's the entire question, and one you're trying to dodge by pretending YOU are the one in the position to be outraged about double standards.



Religious advertising?  More like anti-religious advertising.



> Talk to me about "what grownups do" when an ad goes up claiming that all atheists are going to Hell.  Or, for that matter, talk to me about averting your eyes like a grownup on any of the numerous occasions that atheists have felt compelled to sue simply because Christians DARED to put something religious where their tender eyes had to encounter it.  Put a manger scene on public property, and see how "grownup" the atheists are about "averting their eyes".  THAT is a lawsuit waiting to happen, and it's not even an insult.  *But take out an ad that's the verbal equivalent of slapping Christians in the face*, and we get these hypocritical, self-righteous lectures about "grownups" and "tolerance".
> 
> Spare me.



I didn't see this bus ad as a 'slapping Christians in the face'.  It attemped to do this but missed the mark.  Don't misunderstand -- I believe these billboards were deliberately worded to spark controversy but as a Christian, I don't feel like I was slapped in the face.  Why?  Because of the wording -- 'don't believe in_ a god'_.  Had it said 'don't believe_ in God'_, then yes I'd feel slapped in the face and much more.  I don't believe in 'a god' I believe in 'God' - big difference.   Offensive?  Sure . . .but I still think they have the _ right _to run the ad.


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 13, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Religious advertising?  More like anti-religious advertising.
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't see this bus ad as a 'slapping Christians in the face'.  It attemped to do this but missed the mark.  Don't misunderstand -- I believe these billboards were deliberately worded to spark controversy but as a Christian, I don't feel like I was slapped in the face.  Why?  Because of the wording -- 'don't believe in_ a god'_.  Had it said 'don't believe_ in God'_, then yes I'd feel slapped in the face and much more.  I don't believe in 'a god' I believe in 'God' - big difference.   Offensive?  Sure . . .but I still think they have the _ right _to run the ad.



You have got to be one of the strangest (not in a bad way) christians I have seen on here. This is not an insult, strange is far more interesting than normal. But THAT is a good point which even I missed, and I pride myself on trying to see all sides of an argument. 


SNOW! It's SNOWING HERE!

Sorry, just looked out my window. Anyhoo ... when people take offense at something it's usually because they want an excuse to attack it.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 13, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> when people take offense at something it's usually because they want an excuse to attack it.




Or maybe because they find it offensive.


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 13, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Or maybe because they find it offensive.



The problem with offense is that it requires having little confidence in the standing of your own belief, logic, or self. So perhaps they did, but still it doesn't make taking offense a good thing.


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Dec 14, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> I didn't see this bus ad as a 'slapping Christians in the face'.  It attemped to do this but missed the mark.  Don't misunderstand -- I believe these billboards were deliberately worded to spark controversy but as a Christian, I don't feel like I was slapped in the face.  Why?  Because of the wording -- 'don't believe in_ a god'_.  Had it said 'don't believe_ in God'_, then yes I'd feel slapped in the face and much more.  I don't believe in 'a god' I believe in 'God' - big difference.   Offensive?  Sure . . .but I still think they have the _ right _to run the ad.



Amazingly enough, I don't see any reason to be forgiving of their attempt to be offensive simply because they did it badly.  I'm willing to give them credit for intent.    And I think they chose that wording in order to be offensive to ALL religions, not just Christians, so that doesn't exactly cut any ice with me, either.

And why is it that people always insist on meaninglessly reverting to "They had a right!"  Who said they didn't?  Who even implied it?  They have every right to take out any ad they can get people to accept.  The city even has the right to accept it, I suppose, provided they ARE, in fact, willing to accept the same ad in reverse from religious groups.

My criticism comes from two things.  One, I don't believe the city IS willing to accept the same ad in reverse from a religious group, which makes them hypocritical and also in violation of the law.  Second, I don't think it's a good idea for the city to accept such ads, legal or not, because I don't think it's a prudent choice for a government agency to put itself in the position of offending taxpayers.  I think it behooves them to remain as neutral as possible.

There's a big difference between "I have the right" and "It's a good idea".


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 14, 2008)

If all choices were based only on "it's a good idea" then nothing would ever get done. While I agree that it was an attack on all our religions, if we go after their freedom of speech then it will begin to snowball like many of our laws have. Remember when food use to taste good anyone? We can't start down that slippery slope, it will end up bad. Just like all things people don't like, the more you attack it the more power you give the message.


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 14, 2008)

Gotta find out why this keeps double posting.


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Dec 14, 2008)

I was thinking about this just the other day while I was shopping.  I typically wish the cashier at the store "Merry Christmas" as I collect my bags and leave, and have noticed increasingly every year how startled and surprised they appear to be when I do so.  I find this very sad.

I don't wish people a Merry Christmas because I'm trying to be in anyone's face, or because I'm assuming that everyone celebrates Christmas (although apparently over 90% of the US population DOES celebrate Christmas, either as a religious or a secular holiday).  I wish them a Merry Christmas because that happens to be the holiday _I _celebrate.  If someone wants to wish me a Happy Chanukkah or a Happy Ramadan or even a Happy Kwanzaa in return, because that's what THEY celebrate, then I take it in the spirit it's presumably intended.

It is incomprehensible to me that we have turned a simple wish for joy and happiness in the lives of others into a battleground.  It's beyond ironic.  It's pathetic.  How do you get mad over someone wishing you happiness?


----------



## Agnapostate (Dec 14, 2008)

Must be those demon-possessed witch doctors at the ACLU...they're secular atheists! And Muslims too.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 14, 2008)

Cecilie1200 said:


> I was thinking about this just the other day while I was shopping.  I typically wish the cashier at the store "Merry Christmas" as I collect my bags and leave, and have noticed increasingly every year how startled and surprised they appear to be when I do so.  I find this very sad.
> 
> I don't wish people a Merry Christmas because I'm trying to be in anyone's face, or because I'm assuming that everyone celebrates Christmas (although apparently over 90% of the US population DOES celebrate Christmas, either as a religious or a secular holiday).  I wish them a Merry Christmas because that happens to be the holiday _I _celebrate.  If someone wants to wish me a Happy Chanukkah or a Happy Ramadan or even a Happy Kwanzaa in return, because that's what THEY celebrate, then I take it in the spirit it's presumably intended.
> 
> ...


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 14, 2008)

And yet, the only ones who have stopped using the word christmas in their catalogues are the ones accusing others of attacking christmas while most everyone else is just enjoying the season, not caring, and often even using christmas in the greeting ... must be the backwards towns that this is happening because everywhere in the big cities all I hear and see is christmas and no one complains about it.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 14, 2008)

Cecilie1200 said:


> I was thinking about this just the other day while I was shopping.  I typically wish the cashier at the store "Merry Christmas" as I collect my bags and leave, and have noticed increasingly every year how startled and surprised they appear to be when I do so.  I find this very sad.
> 
> I don't wish people a Merry Christmas because I'm trying to be in anyone's face, or because I'm assuming that everyone celebrates Christmas (although apparently over 90% of the US population DOES celebrate Christmas, either as a religious or a secular holiday).  I wish them a Merry Christmas because that happens to be the holiday _I _celebrate.  If someone wants to wish me a Happy Chanukkah or a Happy Ramadan or even a Happy Kwanzaa in return, because that's what THEY celebrate, then I take it in the spirit it's presumably intended.
> 
> It is incomprehensible to me that we have turned a simple wish for joy and happiness in the lives of others into a battleground.  It's beyond ironic.  It's pathetic.  How do you get mad over someone wishing you happiness?



Is the christmas spirit about doing good to others or is it all about YOU?


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 14, 2008)

Christmas is coming.. War or no War... Christmas she be coming..


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 14, 2008)

I am wondering if Willow even reads all the posts or if she has taken the position of troll?


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 14, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> I am wondering if Willow even reads all the posts or if she has taken the position of troll?







Christmas is coming KK


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 14, 2008)

Yep, just trolling now I see. Nothing to add, just trying to taunt people who only exist in your mind.


----------



## Old Rocks (Dec 14, 2008)

Yes, Christmas is coming. Perhaps we should all reflect on what Christ's message was. Especially those that call themselves Christians.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 14, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> *The problem with offense is that it requires having little confidence in the standing of your own belief, logic, or self.* So perhaps they did, but still it doesn't make taking offense a good thing.




Huh?


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 14, 2008)

Cecilie1200 said:


> And why is it that people always insist on meaninglessly reverting to "They had a right!"  Who said they didn't?  Who even implied it?  They have every right to take out any ad they can get people to accept.  The city even has the right to accept it, I suppose, provided they ARE, in fact, willing to accept the same ad in reverse from religious groups.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Do you know if, in fact, this is true?


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 14, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Huh?



There are two common reactions to something that insults another person, the one targeted could either laugh it off with the strength in their knowledge that they are right (such as 'turn the other cheek' or some such manner) OR they can revel in playing the victim and take offense because they lack the conviction and affirmation that they are correct. Is it clearer now?


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 14, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> Is the christmas spirit about doing good to others or is it all about YOU?





Cecilie1200 said:


> *I don't wish people a Merry Christmas because I'm trying to be in anyone's face, or because I'm assuming that everyone celebrates Christmas (although apparently over 90% of the US population DOES celebrate Christmas, either as a religious or a secular holiday).  I wish them a Merry Christmas because that happens to be the holiday I celebrate.  If someone wants to wish me a Happy Chanukkah or a Happy Ramadan or even a Happy Kwanzaa in return, because that's what THEY celebrate, then I take it in the spirit it's presumably intended.*




What part of this being about other's is unclear to you?


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 14, 2008)

If you know your friend does not celebrate Christmas, why not simply wish your friend joy, peace and happiness in the coming year?

Merry Christmas to all who celebrate this holiday.  And to all who don't, have a joyous New Year rich with meaning for you.

No need for a war.  When I say "Merry Christmas" to someone, I consider it an offering to them.  I don't celebrate Christmas.  I say the greeting out of a spirit of generosity to Christians.

When someone who knows me returns the greeting with "Happy Holidays' or "Happy New Year" or Have a wonderful day", I feel they greet me with the same spirit of generosity and respect.

When a stranger says Merry Christmas to me, I say the same back.

Too bad Christians have so little interest in other peoples holidays.  They would gain more respect by showing the same level of sensitivity to others that they expect every year.


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Dec 14, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Do you know if, in fact, this is true?



Nope.  Just an educated guess, based on similar battles in the past and what I know of city government in DC.  I'll be more than happy to have them prove me wrong, but I sincerely doubt they will.


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Dec 14, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> What part of this being about other's is unclear to you?



What part of "wishing them joy and happiness in their lives" is unclear to YOU?  You think I'm doing that for MY benefit?

And while we're on the subject, I have no idea what has worked your shorts up into your crack in the last couple of days, but would you mind terribly picking them back out and not burdening ME with it?

Talk about a living, breathing example of what I was talking about.


----------



## bk1983 (Dec 14, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> I am wondering if Willow even reads all the posts or if she has taken the position of troll?



If you read her responses on other threads you can see she responds with one liners that definately fit the character of a troll..


----------



## geonerd20 (Dec 14, 2008)

I really have no problem with "Christmas" or "Christmas shopping" or "Christmas whatever".  I do think that the Right protests a little too loud!  I bet if you took a poll, you'll find that less than a third of the "protesters" actually attended Christmas Mass.  I bet at least twice that number stood in freezing weather for hours to get the "Christmas" specials at the various stores.  Christmas has gotten so commercialized that its laughable that the Right protests the so-called "War on Christmas", but says nothing about the commercial exploitation of this religious event.

The Right wing nutbags on FOX are the worst of the lot!  Each December, Hannity and Bill O pick a couple of big-name stores on the "Christmas" vs "Holidays" issue!  But they say nothing about their cohorts - Jamie Colby, Greta Van Sustren, Shep Smith - usually say "Holiday Greetings" or "Happy Holidays" (not Merry Christmas) on their final shows before Christmas.  In fact, the local FOX affiliate uses the "Happy Holidays" greetings too!


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Dec 14, 2008)

geonerd20 said:


> I really have no problem with "Christmas" or "Christmas shopping" or "Christmas whatever".  I do think that the Right protests a little too loud!  I bet if you took a poll, you'll find that less than a third of the "protesters" actually attended Christmas Mass.  I bet at least twice that number stood in freezing weather for hours to get the "Christmas" specials at the various stores.  Christmas has gotten so commercialized that its laughable that the Right protests the so-called "War on Christmas", but says nothing about the commercial exploitation of this religious event.
> 
> The Right wing nutbags on FOX are the worst of the lot!  Each December, Hannity and Bill O pick a couple of big-name stores on the "Christmas" vs "Holidays" issue!  But they say nothing about their cohorts - Jamie Colby, Greta Van Sustren, Shep Smith - usually say "Holiday Greetings" or "Happy Holidays" (not Merry Christmas) on their final shows before Christmas.  In fact, the local FOX affiliate uses the "Happy Holidays" greetings too!



Well, gee.  So since I don't attend Mass, I'm not entitled to think this sort of thing is crap?  Only Catholics need apply, you Protestants sit down and shut the hell up?  And everyone else, you only get to care about injustice when it directly affects you?

Nice attitude.  Very "Spirit of Christmas".

Oh, and I love that whole "It's hypocritical of you to care about what YOU think is important if you don't ALSO get offended over what I think is important.  You should be outraged by 'commercialization', and if you're not, then your concerns don't matter at all!"  And you get to shoehorn your priorities in there because why?


----------



## catzmeow (Dec 14, 2008)

Cecilie1200 said:


> Well, gee.  So since I don't attend Mass, I'm not entitled to think this sort of thing is crap?  Only Catholics need apply, you Protestants sit down and shut the hell up?  And everyone else, you only get to care about injustice when it directly affects you?
> 
> Nice attitude.  Very "Spirit of Christmas".
> 
> Oh, and I love that whole "It's hypocritical of you to care about what YOU think is important if you don't ALSO get offended over what I think is important.  You should be outraged by 'commercialization', and if you're not, then your concerns don't matter at all!"  And you get to shoehorn your priorities in there because why?



God, you frickin drama queen.  I bet Christmas is fun at your house....


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 14, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> god, You Frickin Drama Queen.  I Bet Christmas Is Fun At Your House....



Lol


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 14, 2008)

That's one of the best examples I've seen in awhile of the pot calling the kettle black.


----------



## catzmeow (Dec 14, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> That's one of the best examples I've seen in awhile of the pot calling the kettle black.


I could never hope to compete with you, dear.

Cecelie, on every thread:  "My beliefs are under attack, woe is me.  Christmas is under attack!  Evil unbelievers are stealing Christmas!"

Skydancer, on every thread:  "I don't celebrate Christmas, you bitches!  How dare you expose me to your evil Christian beliefs! You people are knowingly hurtful and cruel!  This is a difficult time for me!"

I'd like to dedicate this song to both of you:

[youtube]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/m8xAve8vQgY&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/m8xAve8vQgY&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/youtube]


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 14, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> I could never hope to compete with you, dear.



I love you too.  Wishing you a Merry Christmas and a better mood in 2009.   Drop the grudge, sometime.  It's ugly.

No need for it to be permanent.


----------



## catzmeow (Dec 14, 2008)

My  thoughts on the war on Christmas:

[YOUTUBE]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/LNqlGlzNVEE&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/LNqlGlzNVEE&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]

Please don't give yourself too much credit, Sky.  I'm not angry at you, I like making fun of you, you pretentious neobuddohippy piece of shit.

Also, this is very fun:

"I"m in ur manger killing ur savior."

[youtube]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/AVZczLuoJoU&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/AVZczLuoJoU&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/youtube]


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 14, 2008)

Good luck with that grudge, catz.  Hold on to the hot poker if you wish, you're the one getting burned.


----------



## catzmeow (Dec 14, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> Good luck with that grudge, catz.  Hold on to the hot poker if you wish, you're the one getting burned.



Skydancer:  "yadda, yadda, yadda..." (insert buddhist nonsense portraying oneself as an ambassador of peace, tolerance, and love in a tone of nearly constant whining).

How's your yoni?


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 14, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> Skydancer:  "yadda, yadda, yadda..." (insert buddhist nonsense portraying oneself as an ambassador of peace, tolerance, and love in a tone of nearly constant whining).
> 
> How's your yoni?



Keep going.  You're on a roll.  Don't hold back, let it all out.  Tell me how you really feel.


----------



## catzmeow (Dec 14, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> Keep going.  You're on a roll.  Don't hold back, let it all out.  Tell me how you really feel.



I think I was pretty clear.  And now you're boring me, you chronic victim.


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 14, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> I think I was pretty clear.  And now you're boring me, you chronic victim.



Is this the best you have to offer?  Of course, you're bored.  I'm not reacting the way you want me to.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 14, 2008)

come on peoples,, life is too short.. 


[YOUTUBE]8jEnTSQStGE&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 14, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> I am wondering if Willow even reads all the posts or if she has taken the position of troll?



She is President of the troll union.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 14, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> She is President of the troll union.





But we're still having Christmas.. War or no war!


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 14, 2008)

You're darn tootin' we're having Christmas.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 14, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> But we're still having Christmas.. War or no war!




....and your posts are still irrelevant.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 14, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> ....and your posts are still irrelevant.



that's irrelevant, we're still having Christmas!


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 14, 2008)

I've been to Stepford Christmas Camp.  Jingle Bells, jingle bells....la, la, la, la, la.

HO HO HO!


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 15, 2008)

Cecilie1200 said:


> What part of "wishing them joy and happiness in their lives" is unclear to YOU?  You think I'm doing that for MY benefit?
> 
> And while we're on the subject, I have no idea what has worked your shorts up into your crack in the last couple of days, but would you mind terribly picking them back out and not burdening ME with it?
> 
> Talk about a living, breathing example of what I was talking about.



Cecilie -- sorry for the misunderstanding.  This response wasn't to you, it was to YWN.  In response to your post, she wrote 'Is the christmas spirit about doing good to others or is it all about YOU?'.  My response was directed at her, not at you.  I am in agreement with you on this whole Christmas thing, in case you didn't read my posts.  Again, sorry for the confuion.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 15, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> I've been to Stepford Christmas Camp.  Jingle Bells, jingle bells....la, la, la, la, la.
> 
> HO HO HO!



Sky - wishing you peace and light this season.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 15, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> My  thoughts on the war on Christmas:
> 
> [YOUTUBE]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/LNqlGlzNVEE&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/LNqlGlzNVEE&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]



Foamy!!!!  My favorite pissed-off squirrel.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 15, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Cecilie -- sorry for the misunderstanding.  This response wasn't to you, it was to YWN.  In response to your post, she wrote 'Is the christmas spirit about doing good to others or is it all about YOU?'.  My response was directed at her, not at you.  I am in agreement with you on this whole Christmas thing, in case you didn't read my posts.  Again, sorry for the confuion.



Just for the record, I'm a HE, not a she.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 15, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> Just for the record, I'm a HE, not a she.



Just for the record, I'm a SHE not a he - just in case you weren't sure.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 15, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> What part of this being about other's is unclear to you?




This part:

* I wish them a Merry Christmas because that happens to be the holiday I celebrate.*

If I know someone celebrates a certain holiday, I use _their _holiday greeting.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 15, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> This part:
> 
> * I wish them a Merry Christmas because that happens to be the holiday I celebrate.*
> 
> If I know someone celebrates a certain holiday, I use _their _holiday greeting.



Y -- if you don't know what holiday someone celebrates, how do you greet them?  Happy Holidays?  Season's Greetings?  Happy Solstice?  Why?  Because that's how _you_ choose to extend season well-wishes to someone.  If I celebrate Christmas, I say Merry Christmas therefore extending my season well-wishes to someone.  Does that mean it is all about ME?  No.  Does it mean I am forcing my beliefs on you?  No.  Does it mean anything other than the fact that I am extending season well-wishes to you? No.    

Read the following posts made by myself and Cecilie.  Do you really, truly not get what we are saying?  What part of 'I take it [and give it] in the spirit it's presumably intended' do you not get?  Why do you insist on playing this 'it's all about you' game?  



Zoom-boing said:


> I used to work at Kohl's.  I loved working during Christmas because (usually) people were nice and friendly.  It was also busy busy which made the time fly by. _ I always wished people Merry Christmas, not because I was trying to insult them but because that is what I believe and extended to others. _ Never once did anyone get mad, annoyed, or complained that I said this.  Not once.  _More often than not they would reply with Happy Holidays and I would smile and say enjoy the rest of your day. And I was not offended by their greeting to me_.  But the replys that always struck me were the ones where the customer would lean in to me and say 'Oh Merry Christmas hun.  It's so nice to hear that.  You never know what to say these days because everyone gets so offended'.  I would also have my greeting returned with 'Happy Hanukkah' or 'Happy Kwanzza' and I would smile and be happy in their greeting to me.  _I wasn't offended that they didn't wish me Merry Christmas, I was glad they were extending their beliefs to me and well. . . . it was all good_.





Cecilie1200 said:


> I don't wish people a Merry Christmas because I'm trying to be in anyone's face, or because I'm assuming that everyone celebrates Christmas (although apparently over 90% of the US population DOES celebrate Christmas, either as a religious or a secular holiday).  _I wish them a Merry Christmas because that happens to be the holiday I celebrate.  If someone wants to wish me a Happy Chanukkah or a Happy Ramadan or even a Happy Kwanzaa in return, because that's what THEY celebrate, then I take it in the spirit it's presumably intended_.



Edited to add:  If I know someone does not celebrate Christmas but celebrates Hanukkah, I wish them a Happy Hanukkah.  Likewise if I know they do not celebrate Christmas, then I would wish them Happy Holidays.  But if I do not know, then I extend to them Merry Christmas and hope they are sure enough of themselves to receive it in the holiday spirit in which it was given.


----------



## ABikerSailor (Dec 15, 2008)

You know.......being intolerant of others during this season is really stupid........

I thought Christmas was about sharing and union, not strife and discord.

"All I want for Christmas is 2 happy Ho's, 2 Happy Hos, 2 Happy Ho's.  La la la la la la lah la lah la la.........."


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 15, 2008)

From what I see, a few who do celebrate christmas (a very few) WANT there to be a war just so they can be victims, otherwise most people, even those who dont' celebrate it, just don't seem to give a rats ass how you to celebrate it.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 15, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> From what I see, a few who do celebrate christmas (a very few) WANT there to be a war just so they can be victims, otherwise most people, even those who dont' celebrate it, just don't seem to give a rats ass how you to celebrate it.



There are always those few who spoil it for the masses.  Most people who complain about this just want Christ kept in Christmas and Christmas kept in the picture.  Really, is that asking so much?


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 15, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> There are always those few who spoil it for the masses.  Most people who complain about this just want Christ kept in Christmas and Christmas kept in the picture.  Really, is that asking so much?



That's the problem, first any of the christs (I put Imhotep Christ in it) can be in any holiday, as long as they aren't claimed as fact. Secondly, no one wants to really get rid of christmas. Most of the atheists celebrate it, others who do not have another religious holiday that are not christian often celebrate it as well. The few who are whining about it are by no means a 'war' on it. Many I wouldn't doubt are just looking for their 15 minutes of fame and use it more to that end than anything, because ever notice how their complain never makes it much further than a blip on the media? 

It's not and never was a christian holiday, it's a celebration, as one pointed out it's just something to do in the winter and has been for many cultures since even before the christian cults existed. The name has been unified (instead of calling it separate names for every culture that celebrates it) but it's an everyone holiday. The jesus stuff was just the only christian aspect there is, every other part of it comes from another culture.


----------



## AllieBaba (Dec 15, 2008)

Yawn.


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 15, 2008)

How about a season of goodwill?


----------



## AllieBaba (Dec 15, 2008)

How about Christmas?


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 15, 2008)

What about it?  If you celebrate Christmas, be merry.  Wish others well, whether they are Christians or not.

Peace on earth, good will to all.


----------



## del (Dec 15, 2008)

Judge Smails: How about a Fresca?


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 15, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> That's the problem, first any of the christs (*I put Imhotep Christ in it)* can be in any holiday, as long as they aren't claimed as fact. Secondly, no one wants to really get rid of christmas. Most of the atheists celebrate it, others who do not have another religious holiday that are not christian often celebrate it as well. The few who are whining about it are by no means a 'war' on it. Many I wouldn't doubt are just looking for their 15 minutes of fame and use it more to that end than anything, because ever notice how their complain never makes it much further than a blip on the media?



What does the bolded part say?  Can't make heads or tails of it.

'Any of the christs?'  There is only one Christ, Jesus Christ 'can be in any holiday as long as they aren't claimed as fact'.  What?  



> *It's not *and never was *a christian holiday*, it's a celebration, as one pointed out it's just something to do in the winter and has been for many cultures since even before the christian cults existed. The name has been unified (instead of calling it separate names for every culture that celebrates it) but it's an everyone holiday. The jesus stuff was just the only christian aspect there is, every other part of it comes from another culture.



There ya go again with the pagan, winter celebration thing.  Yes we all know about the pagan aspects and rituals incorporated into Christmas.  Regardless of how it was, _today_ Christmas is celebrated by the vast majority of this country as the birth of Jesus Christ.   Do you really think that by bringing up the pagan stuff you diminish the religious aspect of this day? lol 

Love how you twist and turn this all around to try and make Christmas into something it is not.  As long as there are people trying to do this, rather than just letting those who celebrate it do so without yapping from non-believers, we will continue to yap about the war.  lol, no war . . .  post 1073 . . . and counting.


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 15, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> What does the bolded part say?  Can't make heads or tails of it.
> 
> 'Any of the christs?'  There is only one Christ, Jesus Christ 'can be in any holiday as long as they aren't claimed as fact'.  What?
> 
> ...



Hmm ... if it's just his name then really, you chose the wrong person to worship because christ is a title and nothing more. If it's just the one you chose, cool, I choose Imhotep as my christ and thus he gets the title from me. You have poor comprehension skills it seems. Christmas is a collection of pagan rituals, many of which originate in Europe, just renaming them doesn't change what they are or where they came from. The nativity is the only part that is purely christian, and you are welcome to keep that part in if you want, since everyone else has already contributed to it.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 15, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> What does the bolded part say?  Can't make heads or tails of it.
> 
> 'Any of the christs?'  There is only one Christ, Jesus Christ 'can be in any holiday as long as they aren't claimed as fact'.  What?
> 
> ...



  The bolded is some god the Egyptians worshiped. We are still gonna have Christmas and celebrate the birth of Christ. No matter what war is waged. Yep


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 15, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> The bolded is some god the Egyptians worshiped. We are still gonna have Christmas and celebrate the birth of Christ. No matter what war is waged. Yep



Meh, if that's how you chose to celebrate. Many people just celebrate christmas as something to do, some because of the pagan connections. Imhotep was the myth that the Jesus myth was based on, it was told that when he died he was taken to Ras side and became a god himself because of how good he was.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 15, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> Hmm ... if it's just his name then really, you chose the wrong person to worship because christ is a title and nothing more. If it's just the one you chose, cool, I choose Imhotep as my christ and thus he gets the title from me. You have poor comprehension skills it seems. Christmas is a collection of pagan rituals, many of which originate in Europe, just renaming them doesn't change what they are or where they came from. The nativity is the only part that is purely christian, and you are welcome to keep that part in if you want, since everyone else has already contributed to it.



No, Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ, Saviour, King of Kings.  You go on ahead and hug your godless beliefs.   BTW, thanks for not explaining the bolded part.  



WillowTree said:


> The bolded is some god the Egyptians worshiped. We are still gonna have Christmas and celebrate the birth of Christ. No matter what war is waged. Yep



Thank you for answering my question to koder.  Apparently she is incapable of just providing simple answers.  Yes we shall all have a merry, merry Christmas.  My pagan tree is up and beautifully decorated.  The nativity set next to it -- the reason for the season!  Merry Christmas Willow!!


----------



## FistyTheBadger (Dec 15, 2008)

Shogun said:


> yea yea yea...  you are not the only belief system with a holiday during this time of year, dogma junkie.  We've already won; go ask Retail store greeters all about it.


Merry Christmas, Shogun.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 15, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> No, Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ, Saviour, King of Kings.  You go on ahead and hug your godless beliefs.   BTW, thanks for not explaining the bolded part.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for answering my question to koder.  Apparently she is incapable of just providing simple answers.  Yes we shall all have a merry, merry Christmas.  My pagan tree is up and beautifully decorated.  The nativity set next to it -- the reason for the season!  Merry Christmas Willow!!





she argues just for the sake of arguing..


----------



## FistyTheBadger (Dec 15, 2008)

jillian said:


> The only ones who think there's a "war" are the nutters who think if everyone isn't celebrating their holiday, that they're somehow being put upon.
> 
> Most of us couldn't care less.
> 
> So go enjoy your holiday without annoying everyone else.


The vast majority of Americans DO celebrate Christmas, and most "Holiday" warriors do nothing but slap Christians in the face, slap the celebrators of other holiday's in the face by making them feel like the nuisance that spoiled the fun, and do not respect or reflect anybody's true feelings about the phrase "Merry Christmas" or the use of the word "Christmas" in general.


----------



## FistyTheBadger (Dec 15, 2008)

Steerpike said:


> This is one of the silliest discussions every year. No one is "winning" or "losing" anything.  Businesses are trying to appeal to the broadest customer base, and they figure Holidays includes everyone. Normally, trying to appeal to more customers is a good idea in business. In this case, though, you get some people who try to backlash against it.  The whole thing is stupid.  If a business can cater to more people rather than fewer, they ought to do it. Pro-business conservatives ought to understand the concept.


That is not the actual case.  Businesses are trying to avoid being sued by the hyperlitigious culture that is America because lawsuits often end up costing a lot of money that on balance would not make putting up a simple sign saying "Merry Christmas" worth it.


----------



## Gunny (Dec 15, 2008)

My f-ing cat is waging a war on Christmas ... as in "the tree" ... and he might not survive to see the new year.


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 15, 2008)

Gunny said:


> My f-ing cat is waging a war on Christmas ... as in "the tree" ... and he might not survive to see the new year.



eeep! *hides Gunnys cat and teaches it to respect trees*


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 15, 2008)

Gunny said:


> My f-ing cat is waging a war on Christmas ... as in "the tree" ... and he might not survive to see the new year.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 15, 2008)

Gunny said:


> My f-ing cat is waging a war on Christmas ... as in "the tree" ... and he might not survive to see the new year.



  I hear you.  My cat insists on eating the garland (or plastic bags or tape off of packages) then waiting until I'm just dozing off to reguritate it all over the floor by the bed.


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 15, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> The bolded is some god the Egyptians worshiped. We are still gonna have Christmas and celebrate the birth of Christ. No matter what war is waged. Yep



I accept that Christmas is coming, and whether I believe in Christmas wars or not, trying to avoid Christmas has made my life unmanageable.


----------



## AllieBaba (Dec 15, 2008)

Boo hoo.
Trying to avoid liberal jihadists and asshole atheists gives me a headache every day.

Grow up and take it like the non-man you are.


----------



## FistyTheBadger (Dec 15, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> I accept that Christmas is coming, and whether I believe in Christmas wars or not, trying to avoid Christmas has made my life unmanageable.


What kind of dumbass Scrooge sanctimonious douchebag tries to avoid Christmas?

Just a question.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 15, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> I accept that Christmas is coming, and whether I believe in Christmas wars or not, trying to avoid Christmas has made my life unmanageable.





That is sad!


----------



## Gunny (Dec 15, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> eeep! *hides Gunnys cat and teaches it to respect trees*



The tree's not the problem.  It's the ornaments he likes to see which ones will break on the hardwood floor.


----------



## Gunny (Dec 15, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> I hear you.  My cat insists on eating the garland (or plastic bags or tape off of packages) then waiting until I'm just dozing off to reguritate it all over the floor by the bed.



Yuck.  Mine's not THAT bad.  He just keeps practicing his NBA ball-blocking skills on the ornaments.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Dec 15, 2008)

Sky, from some of your posts I know that this time of year is hard for you.  I hope it passes quickly.


----------



## KittenKoder (Dec 15, 2008)

AllieBaba said:


> Boo hoo.
> Trying to avoid liberal jihadists and asshole atheists gives me a headache every day.
> 
> Grow up and take it like the non-man you are.



Hmm ... then why do you go to those message boards?


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 15, 2008)

AllieBaba said:


> Boo hoo.
> Trying to avoid liberal jihadists and asshole atheists gives me a headache every day.
> 
> Grow up and take it like the non-man you are.



Yuck.  You've got a nasty attitude.  You call this Christmas cheer?
Thanks for calling me a 'non-man'.  I call myself a woman.  Do you call yourself a woman or a 'non-man', hahah.

That's the first true thing I've heard you say.


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 15, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Sky, from some of your posts I know that this time of year is hard for you.  I hope it passes quickly.



It's getting better.  I just hit one really bad day last week.  I bounce back pretty quickly.  It's usually a quiet day, and its been snowing here, the first snow of the season, that always cheers me up.


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 15, 2008)

FistyTheBadger said:


> What kind of dumbass Scrooge sanctimonious douchebag tries to avoid Christmas?
> 
> Just a question.



You missed the joke.  I was playing off the 12 step programs.  Earlier I tried to pass myself off as having graduated from Stepford Wives Christmas Camp.

Christmas is what it is.  The best thing to do is just surrender to it.


----------



## FistyTheBadger (Dec 15, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> It's getting better.  I just hit one really bad day last week.  I bounce back pretty quickly.  It's usually a quiet day, and its been snowing here, the first snow of the season, that always cheers me up.


Snow cheers you up?  That is a fucking shame.


----------



## FistyTheBadger (Dec 15, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> You missed the joke.  I was playing off the 12 step programs.  Earlier I tried to pass myself off as having graduated from Stepford Wives Christmas Camp.
> 
> Christmas is what it is.  The best thing to do is just surrender to it.


You did a shitty job of it, idiot!



Maybe I should back off of the namecalling just a Little bit.


----------



## WillowTree (Dec 15, 2008)

FistyTheBadger said:


> Snow cheers you up?  That is a fucking shame.






I would be ecstatic if I had some snow for Christmas!


----------



## Gunny (Dec 15, 2008)

FistyTheBadger said:


> You did a shitty job of it, idiot!
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe I should back off of the namecalling just a Little bit.



Maybe ....


----------



## Grismonda (Dec 15, 2008)

Gunny said:


> Yuck.  Mine's not THAT bad.  He just keeps practicing his NBA ball-blocking skills on the ornaments.



My cat is a republican.  I know this because he buries his sh*t!


----------



## FistyTheBadger (Dec 15, 2008)

Grismonda said:


> My cat is a republican.  I know this because he buries his sh*t!


You live in California, and  you think that that is a _Republican_ trait?  How blind are you?!


----------



## Grismonda (Dec 15, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> You missed the joke.  I was playing off the 12 step programs.  Earlier I tried to pass myself off as having graduated from Stepford Wives Christmas Camp.
> 
> Christmas is what it is.  The best thing to do is just surrender to it.



12 steps of Mithros!


----------



## Grismonda (Dec 15, 2008)

FistyTheBadger said:


> You live in California, and  you think that that is a _Republican_ trait?  How blind are you?!



My other cat is a Democrat...and I guess they are even!


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 15, 2008)

FistyTheBadger said:


> The vast majority of Americans DO celebrate Christmas, and most "Holiday" warriors do nothing but slap Christians in the face, slap the celebrators of other holiday's in the face by making them feel like the nuisance that spoiled the fun, and do not respect or reflect anybody's true feelings about the phrase "Merry Christmas" or the use of the word "Christmas" in general.



I'm sorry you feel that way.  It's too bad that the spirit of Christmas does not extend generosity toward people who don't celebrate that holiday.

It's not meant as a 'slap in the face' to Christians to admit that Christmas does not bring out my personal merriest best.

In the future, I'll just keep my mouth shut about my own experience of Christmas.

I do have the capacity to feel sympathetic joy for others and to wish everyone who celebrates Christmas the merriest best.


----------



## ABikerSailor (Dec 15, 2008)

FistyTheBadger said:


> You did a shitty job of it, idiot!
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe I should back off of the namecalling just a Little bit.



Hey Fisty the Badger....

Do you call yourself that because you're a mean little bastard that packs fudge at the end of their arm?

Just wondering.


----------



## Grismonda (Dec 15, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> I'm sorry you feel that way.  It's too bad that the spirit of Christmas does not extend generosity toward people who don't celebrate that holiday.
> 
> It's not meant as a 'slap in the face' to Christians to admit that Christmas does not bring out my personal merriest best.
> 
> ...



I'm going to do something about this NOW!  OK..for starters, I'm getting rid of my Christmas tree... (this is a Prussian thingy anyway..and gosh it goes waaaaaaay back to those pagan - heathens celebrating winter)  Now, what else...oh yes, my gosh...Good bye Santa!  ......and....hmmm?  I think I might just celebrate the birth of Christ in June!  Now we are talking...really give Christ his birthday due!  He deserves it, don't you all think?...instead of mixing up his birthday with all the other pagan holidays?

This war on Christmas is the STUPIDIST thing I have ever heard!


----------



## Gunny (Dec 15, 2008)

Grismonda said:


> My cat is a republican.  I know this because he buries his sh*t!



Mine's got to be a Democrat.  Make a rule, he immediately has to go break it and if you get after his ass, he waits until you aren't looking and does it again.


----------



## Grismonda (Dec 15, 2008)

Gunny said:


> Mine's got to be a Democrat.  Make a rule, he immediately has to go break it and if you get after his ass, he waits until you aren't looking and does it again.



My dog is a Republican because he never listens.


----------



## ABikerSailor (Dec 15, 2008)

Get an Independent cat.  They look after themselves quite nice.

I've got 2.  Cement (he's got a really good reason for that name), and Tuxedo C. Underfoot.

Both are independent and don't mind telling me when I do good, and chew my ass when they're upset.


----------



## Gunny (Dec 15, 2008)

Grismonda said:


> My dog is a Republican because he never listens.



My dog's cool cuz she loves me.


----------



## Grismonda (Dec 15, 2008)

ABikerSailor said:


> Get an Independent cat.  They look after themselves quite nice.
> 
> I've got 2.  Cement (he's got a really good reason for that name), and Tuxedo C. Underfoot.
> 
> Both are independent and don't mind telling me when I do good, and chew my ass when they're upset.



Cool names ABikerSailor....  My cat is named Pywakit, the others Theophile, Toulouse, and Panda Bear.

Panda is a "fat cat"...like those in Washington!  

What is the name of your cat(s) Gunny?


----------



## Gunny (Dec 15, 2008)

Grismonda said:


> Cool names ABikerSailor....  My cat is named Pywakit, the others Theophile, Toulouse, and Panda Bear.
> 
> Panda is a "fat cat"...like those in Washington!
> 
> What is the name of your cat(s) Gunny?



Heh ... you ASKED for it.  Totally black cat.  His name is Buckwheat.


----------



## FistyTheBadger (Dec 15, 2008)

ABikerSailor said:


> Hey Fisty the Badger....
> 
> Do you call yourself that because you're a mean little bastard that packs fudge at the end of their arm?
> 
> Just wondering.


I really don't know how far to go with this persona.


----------



## Grismonda (Dec 15, 2008)

Gunny said:


> Heh ... you ASKED for it.  Totally black cat.  His name is Buckwheat.



Be sure to keep him inside during Halloween...  He is ok outside during the Christmas festivities though....  *wink*


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 15, 2008)

Hey Gris--

Are you on my case about Christmas?  I didn't start the war and I'm not interested in participating in one.

Peace on earth, goodwill to all.


----------



## Grismonda (Dec 15, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> Hey Gris--
> 
> Are you on my case about Christmas?  I didn't start the war and I'm not interested in participating in one.
> 
> Peace on earth, goodwill to all.




Oh no not at all, I was being sarcastic!


----------



## Gunny (Dec 15, 2008)

Grismonda said:


> Be sure to keep him inside during Halloween...  He is ok outside during the Christmas festivities though....  *wink*



He only gets out in the back yard when he can be watched.  He's been declawed.  Otherwise, he's a housecat.

He's ALREADY having enough Christmas "kitty cheer" on my tree.


----------



## Grismonda (Dec 15, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> Hey Gris--
> 
> Are you on my case about Christmas?  I didn't start the war and I'm not interested in participating in one.
> 
> Peace on earth, goodwill to all.



Mithros was a Persian God worshipped by the Roman soldiers.  Mithros birthday was supposed to be Dec. 25 because that is the winter solace in that part of the world!


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 15, 2008)

Grismonda said:


> Oh no not at all, I was being sarcastic!




Glad I asked.  So easy to miss sarcasm.  I've missed ya.


----------



## Grismonda (Dec 15, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> Glad I asked.  So easy to miss sarcasm.  I've missed ya.


Like wise....I will stop by more often...


----------



## Grismonda (Dec 15, 2008)

Gunny said:


> He only gets out in the back yard when he can be watched.  He's been declawed.  Otherwise, he's a housecat.
> 
> He's ALREADY having enough Christmas "kitty cheer" on my tree.



Good grief!  Keep him inside!


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 15, 2008)

Grismonda said:


> Mithros was a Persian God worshipped by the Roman soldiers.  Mithros birthday was supposed to be Dec. 25 because that is the winter solace in that part of the world!




Happy Mithros.  I love Solstice by the way.  I used to go the the local planetarium for a Solstice Show.  They also had a nice Crhstiams one too, with local singers.


----------



## Grismonda (Dec 15, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> Happy Mithros.  I love Solstice by the way.  I used to go the the local planetarium for a Solstice Show.  They also had a nice Crhstiams one too, with local singers.




A few more days away....  Well, I find the whole history of Christmas fascinating...   Ancient culture is represented throughout the holiday in some aspect.  I'm sure you know.  Love Planetarium shows!  I haven't been in quit sometime... We usually went to the show at Griffith Park in LA.


----------



## Gunny (Dec 15, 2008)

Grismonda said:


> Good grief!  Keep him inside!



Like I said, he only goes out when he can be watched.  He likes going outside.  We have a wooden privacy fence so there's not much risk.  Besides, the dog goes out with him and no stray cat in its right mind would come in the yard with her.


----------



## Grismonda (Dec 15, 2008)

Gunny said:


> Like I said, he only goes out when he can be watched.  He likes going outside.  We have a wooden privacy fence so there's not much risk.  Besides, the dog goes out with him and no stray cat in its right mind would come in the yard with her.



Put a little Christmas bell around his neck.  I live in a rural area...lots of coyotes and mountain lions...etc....AND hawks as well as other birds of prey...  We can't allow our kitties out, EVER!  Terrible I know...but it's too big of a risk, especially when a hawk grabs one up!


----------



## Grismonda (Dec 15, 2008)

FistyTheBadger said:


> What kind of dumbass Scrooge sanctimonious douchebag tries to avoid Christmas?
> 
> Just a question.



The Pilgrims.  

The puritanical pilgrims migrated to North America to practice their ultra conservative brand of Christianity.  They did NOT believe in celebrating Christmas.  They abhorred it as a matter of fact.  In 1669 the descendants of the original pilgrims outlawed Christmas!  The holiday was looked down upon during the entire Revolutionary War.


----------



## FistyTheBadger (Dec 15, 2008)

Grismonda said:


> The Pilgrims.
> 
> The puritanical pilgrims migrated to North America to practice their ultra conservative brand of Christianity.  They did NOT believe in celebrating Christmas.  They abhorred it as a matter of fact.  In 1669 the descendants of the original pilgrims outlawed Christmas!  The holiday was looked down upon during the entire Revolutionary War.


Show me.....THE EVIDENCE!!! (buh buh BUHHHHH)


----------



## Grismonda (Dec 15, 2008)

FistyTheBadger said:


> Show me.....THE EVIDENCE!!! (buh buh BUHHHHH)



Honey, this is history!  Did you not know this?  The Pilgrims came over to America for religious freedom.  I'm sure you have heard this?  Religious freedom was to practice ultra conservative Christianity.  One of their disputes with European Christians was the celebration of Christmas...they thought it was a pagan holiday....which in many many ways, it is...


----------



## FistyTheBadger (Dec 15, 2008)

Grismonda said:


> Honey, this is history!  Did you not know this?  The Pilgrims came over to America for religious freedom.  I'm sure you have heard this?  Religious freedom was to practice ultra conservative Christianity.  One of their disputes with European Christians was the celebration of Christmas...they thought it was a pagan holiday....which in many many ways, it is...


Your explanation is starting to lean in the direction that I thought you meant, and that you were misleading at first.  But so far, no evidence.


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 15, 2008)

Grismonda said:


> Put a little Christmas bell around his neck.  I live in a rural area...lots of coyotes and mountain lions...etc....AND hawks as well as other birds of prey...  We can't allow our kitties out, EVER!  Terrible I know...but it's too big of a risk, especially when a hawk grabs one up!



I live in a similar area.  I let my cat go out, but only if I'm home.  She's precious to me, and I don't want to lose her.  She comes when I call her.  I do worry about her being out, but I never let her stay out all night.  And I can't have a kitty door, or I would have skunks, racoons and possumes visiting.

We have eagles, hawks and osprey, cougar, foxes, coyotes and bears.  Recently we had a local problem with rabid foxes.  Those suckers were attacking people!


----------



## Grismonda (Dec 15, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> I live in a similar area.  I let my cat go out, but only if I'm home.  She's precious to me, and I don't want to lose her.  She comes when I call her.  I do worry about her being out, but I never let her stay out all night.  And I can't have a kitty door, or I would have skunks, racoons and possumes visiting.
> 
> We have eagles, hawks and osprey, cougar, foxes, coyotes and bears.  Recently we had a local problem with rabid foxes.  Those suckers were attacking people!



There are feral cats living on our property..born and raised.  I found my cat Theophile when he was a feral kitten stuck in the fence... If they are feral and grown up in the wild, they are usually pretty safe.  We don't have foxes or bears....  We do have racoons and they can be very nasty.  One entered my brother's house through a cat door.


----------



## Grismonda (Dec 15, 2008)

FistyTheBadger said:


> Your explanation is starting to lean in the direction that I thought you meant, and that you were misleading at first.  But so far, no evidence.



Misleading to where?  This is simple history...  It isn't my job to educate you.  You are welcome to google it, check a book out of the library...etc.!  If you would like I will gather information for you and post it.

btw, the Southern aristocrats LOVED celebrating Christmas...they were at odds with the puritanical north.  In fact, Christmas was not a holiday and lawmakers in Washington always worked on this day.  It had no special meaning to their lives....


----------



## del (Dec 15, 2008)

FistyTheBadger said:


> Show me.....THE EVIDENCE!!! (buh buh BUHHHHH)



"For preventing disorders, arising in several places within this jurisdiction by reason of some still observing such festivals as were superstitiously kept in other communities, to the great dishonor of God and offense of others: it is therefore ordered by this court and the authority thereof that *whosoever shall be found observing any such day as Christmas or the like, either by forbearing of labor, feasting, or any other way, upon any such account as aforesaid, every such person so offending shall pay for every such offence five shilling as a fine to the county*."

From the records of the General Court,
Massachusetts Bay Colony
May 11, 1659


When Christmas Was Banned


----------



## Grismonda (Dec 15, 2008)

del said:


> "For preventing disorders, arising in several places within this jurisdiction by reason of some still observing such festivals as were superstitiously kept in other communities, to the great dishonor of God and offense of others: it is therefore ordered by this court and the authority thereof that *whosoever shall be found observing any such day as Christmas or the like, either by forbearing of labor, feasting, or any other way, upon any such account as aforesaid, every such person so offending shall pay for every such offence five shilling as a fine to the county*."
> 
> From the records of the General Court,
> Massachusetts Bay Colony
> ...


Thank you!!


----------



## del (Dec 15, 2008)

Grismonda said:


> Thank you!!



5 shillings was big bucks back in the day


----------



## Grismonda (Dec 15, 2008)

del said:


> 5 shillings was big bucks back in the day



Speaking of the Pilgrims...you know  Thanksgiving they stole all the corn from the Indians?


----------



## del (Dec 15, 2008)

Grismonda said:


> Speaking of the Pilgrims...you know  Thanksgiving they stole all the corn from the Indians?



no, i didn't. interesting


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Dec 16, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> God, you frickin drama queen.  I bet Christmas is fun at your house....



I'll cop to being a drama queen at the point where I start taking people to court because I got my panties in a ruffle over the "horror" of being forced to see their holiday decorations, so spare me the hypocrisy, okay?

Christmas is lots of fun at my house, by the way, because we don't invite any jerkwad atheists who want to turn a simple holiday into a culture war, and then pretend they have no idea what everyone's mad at them for.


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Dec 16, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> I could never hope to compete with you, dear.
> 
> Cecelie, on every thread:  "My beliefs are under attack, woe is me.  Christmas is under attack!  Evil unbelievers are stealing Christmas!"
> 
> ...



And your latest stand seems to be, "Ohmigod, people are on political message boards TALKING ABOUT THEIR BELIEFS!  YOU FRIGGING DRAMA QUEENS!  SHUT UP ABOUT WHAT YOU BELIEVE!  HOW DARE YOU HOLD AN OPINION!"

Sorry, why are you here again, if you think it's so damned stupid to argue and debate beliefs and positions?  Maybe instead of telling everyone to shut up every time they dare to espouse their opinions, you should just go the hell away so you can't hear them.

FLUSH!


----------



## Anguille (Dec 16, 2008)

del said:


> "For preventing disorders, arising in several places within this jurisdiction by reason of some still observing such festivals as were superstitiously kept in other communities, to the great dishonor of God and offense of others: it is therefore ordered by this court and the authority thereof that *whosoever shall be found observing any such day as Christmas or the like, either by forbearing of labor, feasting, or any other way, upon any such account as aforesaid, every such person so offending shall pay for every such offence five shilling as a fine to the county*."
> 
> From the records of the General Court,
> Massachusetts Bay Colony
> ...



rep slaps, Goodman del, for keeping the facts straight.

Chalking was a no no then too.


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Dec 16, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Cecilie -- sorry for the misunderstanding.  This response wasn't to you, it was to YWN.  In response to your post, she wrote 'Is the christmas spirit about doing good to others or is it all about YOU?'.  My response was directed at her, not at you.  I am in agreement with you on this whole Christmas thing, in case you didn't read my posts.  Again, sorry for the confuion.



As I mentioned to you, I have YWN on ignore, so this probably contributed to the confusion.


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Dec 16, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Y -- if you don't know what holiday someone celebrates, how do you greet them?  Happy Holidays?  Season's Greetings?  Happy Solstice?  Why?  Because that's how _you_ choose to extend season well-wishes to someone.  If I celebrate Christmas, I say Merry Christmas therefore extending my season well-wishes to someone.  Does that mean it is all about ME?  No.  Does it mean I am forcing my beliefs on you?  No.  Does it mean anything other than the fact that I am extending season well-wishes to you? No.
> 
> Read the following posts made by myself and Cecilie.  Do you really, truly not get what we are saying?  What part of 'I take it [and give it] in the spirit it's presumably intended' do you not get?  Why do you insist on playing this 'it's all about you' game?
> 
> ...



I went to school with a girl who was Jewish.  I still wished her a Merry Christmas, and she wished me a Happy Hanukkah.  I don't actually have a clue when Hanukkah is, and it seems like it doesn't always fall precisely at the same time every year, or something, so I would just confuse everyone if I tried to wish them a happy holiday that I know nothing about.

The way I see it, with my method, she and I BOTH got two happy holidays for the price of one.


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Dec 16, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> There are always those few who spoil it for the masses.  Most people who complain about this just want Christ kept in Christmas and Christmas kept in the picture.  Really, is that asking so much?



I just want everyone to stop pissing in the pool and making the rest of the world miserable over their own way-too-thin skins.  Y'wanna be a grouchy curmudgeon?  Fine.  Stay home with your doors locked, glaring out the window at the neighbors, like curmudgeons used to do.  Don't take out advertisements and file lawsuits and whatever else to make sure everyone else is pissed off, too.


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Dec 16, 2008)

FistyTheBadger said:


> The vast majority of Americans DO celebrate Christmas, and most "Holiday" warriors do nothing but slap Christians in the face, slap the celebrators of other holiday's in the face by making them feel like the nuisance that spoiled the fun, and do not respect or reflect anybody's true feelings about the phrase "Merry Christmas" or the use of the word "Christmas" in general.



I think most of us know it's not really the Jewish community, or the Muslim community, or whatever other religious community that's being the nuisance spoiling everyone's fun.  It's not even most of the secular folks.  It's a very vocal handful of jerks out there who never outgrew the need to throw tantrums and be unbearable burdens on every social occasion.


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Dec 16, 2008)

Gunny said:


> My f-ing cat is waging a war on Christmas ... as in "the tree" ... and he might not survive to see the new year.



We put a special fuse on the cord for the tree lights, to keep the cat from burning the house down whenever she eventually electrocutes her own fool self by chewing on the lights.  ::sigh::

On the bright side, at least I'll have furry slippers - and possibly mittens as well - this year.


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Dec 16, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> I hear you.  My cat insists on eating the garland (or plastic bags or tape off of packages) then waiting until I'm just dozing off to reguritate it all over the floor by the bed.



I remember the last year we had tinsel on the tree.  Mom had to take the cat to the vet to get a big ball of the stuff removed from her digestive tract.  The bills were horrendous.  We've been tinsel-free ever since.


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Dec 16, 2008)

Gunny said:


> The tree's not the problem.  It's the ornaments he likes to see which ones will break on the hardwood floor.



On the bright side, at least he's not actually CLIMBING the tree. We had a cat once who thought he should be the angel at the top.


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Dec 16, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> I would be ecstatic if I had some snow for Christmas!



I'd be stunned, this being a desert and all.


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Dec 16, 2008)

Grismonda said:


> The Pilgrims.
> 
> The puritanical pilgrims migrated to North America to practice their ultra conservative brand of Christianity.  They did NOT believe in celebrating Christmas.  They abhorred it as a matter of fact.  In 1669 the descendants of the original pilgrims outlawed Christmas!  The holiday was looked down upon during the entire Revolutionary War.



And the Puritans were known for considering having fun to be evil, so that would fit in nicely with the whole "Scrooge" characterization.

The religious folk on the other end of the War On Christmas spectrum, who want to bitch and moan about how it's "really celebrating something pagan" need to pick the wedgie out about as much as the atheists do, in my never-humble opinion.  Lighten up, for crying out loud.


----------



## Munin (Dec 16, 2008)

I don't understand why you guys see christmas as purely religious? And why "merry christmas" was replaced by "happy holidays"

In Europe it is seen as a tradition, that is part of our culture so that s why we here in Europe only say christmas. We also have separation of church and state, but this doesn't make us "delete" national traditions, national heritage and culture.

This is why Christmas is culture: 
Santa Claus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Christmas tree - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Mistletoe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

National heritage:
"The modern depiction of Santa Claus as a plump, jolly man wearing a red coat and trousers with white cuffs and collar, and black leather belt and boots, became popular in the United States in the 19th century due to the significant influence of caricaturist and political cartoonist Thomas Nast.[3] This image has been maintained and reinforced through song, radio, television, and films. In the United Kingdom and Europe, his depiction is often identical to the American Santa, but he is commonly called Father Christmas."

I understand that Christmas literally means the birth of christ, but the modern general meaning of christmas has much less to do with christ then many religious conservatives would want it to be related with it. To me it seems like the same as Halloween or new years day or the number of the year we are in (the year 0 (at wich we begin our counting) is the birth of christ).


----------



## Ravi (Dec 16, 2008)

Cecilie1200 said:


> I just want everyone to stop pissing in the pool and making the rest of the world miserable over their own way-too-thin skins.  Y'wanna be a grouchy curmudgeon?  Fine.  Stay home with your doors locked, glaring out the window at the neighbors, like curmudgeons used to do.  Don't take out advertisements and file lawsuits and whatever else to make sure everyone else is pissed off, too.


Making people like you miserable is just a bonus.


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 16, 2008)

FistyTheBadger said:


> That is not the actual case.  Businesses are trying to avoid being sued by the hyperlitigious culture that is America because lawsuits often end up costing a lot of money that on balance would not make putting up a simple sign saying "Merry Christmas" worth it.



That is a lot of baloney.  On what basis would anyone sue a store for putting up a sign that says Merry Christmas?? What would the cause of action be?


----------



## YWN666 (Dec 16, 2008)

Cecilie1200 said:


> I just want everyone to stop pissing in the pool and making the rest of the world miserable over their own way-too-thin skins.  Y'wanna be a grouchy curmudgeon?  Fine.  Stay home with your doors locked, glaring out the window at the neighbors, like curmudgeons used to do.  Don't take out advertisements and file lawsuits and whatever else to make sure everyone else is pissed off, too.



It is the christians who are complaining about this non-existent war on christmas that are too thin skinned.


----------



## Grismonda (Dec 16, 2008)

Cecilie1200 said:


> because we don't invite any jerkwad atheists who want to turn a simple holiday into a culture war, and then pretend they have no idea what everyone's mad at them for.



Instead you can invite some Druids over and make it a very merry day!  Also   invite a few Persians (Roman soliders actually) to cover Mithros....while you are at it!


----------



## FistyTheBadger (Dec 16, 2008)

Cecilie1200 said:


> I think most of us know it's not really the Jewish community, or the Muslim community, or whatever other religious community that's being the nuisance spoiling everyone's fun.  It's not even most of the secular folks.  It's a very vocal handful of jerks out there who never outgrew the need to throw tantrums and be unbearable burdens on every social occasion.


I agree, but the handful of jerks are very vocal and very powerful.


----------



## FistyTheBadger (Dec 16, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> That is a lot of baloney.  On what basis would anyone sue a store for putting up a sign that says Merry Christmas?? What would the cause of action be?


 Discrimination and prejudice.


----------



## AllieBaba (Dec 16, 2008)

Lack of anything better to do.


----------



## Grismonda (Dec 16, 2008)

Cecilie1200 said:


> "really celebrating something pagan" need to pick the wedgie out about as much as the atheists do, in my never-humble opinion.  Lighten up, for crying out loud.




They are celebrating Christ's b'day, on a day which historically is considered not his birthday.  They are doing so by using "pagan" traditions to honor his birthday...  This is why our founding fathers (those Pilgrims I wrote about) did NOT celebrate Christmas....they indeed needed to lighten UP!

Early Christian leaders understood to increase their fellowship, the Christian church needed to adopt some of the traditions of various pagan holidays.  Hence Christ's b'day was incorporated into other holidays celebrated during this time by pagans...ie; tree celebration, mithros, etc...

Who cares?  This whole war on Christmas was invented NOT by atheists but by a few paranoid Christians that need to lighten up...

Celebrate the HOLIDAY SEASON in the way that makes you the happiest.  Every culture has a golden rule, so to speak...  Do unto others....  Well, do unto others and wish that person happiness in the way he seeks happiness.  

So all you paranoid Christians..Merry Christmas, Happy B'Day to Christ!


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 16, 2008)

Cecilie1200 said:


> And your latest stand seems to be, "Ohmigod, people are on political message boards TALKING ABOUT THEIR BELIEFS!  YOU FRIGGING DRAMA QUEENS!  SHUT UP ABOUT WHAT YOU BELIEVE!  HOW DARE YOU HOLD AN OPINION!"
> 
> Sorry, why are you here again, if you think it's so damned stupid to argue and debate beliefs and positions?  Maybe instead of telling everyone to shut up every time they dare to espouse their opinions, you should just go the hell away so you can't hear them.
> 
> FLUSH!



We're here to discuss whether there is a war on Christmas or not.  Isn't that why you're here too?

We're here to discuss our opinions and to back them up.  There is no war on Christmas.  Christmas is alive and well.

There does appear to be conflict about whether it makes any sense in a multi-cultural America to extend the same greeting to all, no matter who they are.


----------



## AllieBaba (Dec 16, 2008)

Actually, I thought Christmas was celebrated by our forefathers.

I know that in the dark and middle ages it was celebrated, but it wasn't so much CHristmas as Michaelmas and a couple of other saints days that all sort of fell around the same time.

Big whoop. The Christians have decided to use it as a time to celebrate the birth of Christ. Some people use it to celebrate winter and a season of giving. Who gives a shit? Like I said, some people need to get a hobby, or spend some more time doing things that really matter, and quit obsessing about shutting down everyone else's lives.


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 16, 2008)

AllieBaba said:


> Actually, I thought Christmas was celebrated by our forefathers.
> 
> I know that in the dark and middle ages it was celebrated, but it wasn't so much CHristmas as Michaelmas and a couple of other saints days that all sort of fell around the same time.
> 
> Big whoop. The Christians have decided to use it as a time to celebrate the birth of Christ. Some people use it to celebrate winter and a season of giving. *Who gives a shit?* Like I said, some people need to get a hobby, or spend some more time doing things that really matter, and quit obsessing about shutting down everyone else's lives.




You appear in your posts to be very much at war.


----------



## FistyTheBadger (Dec 16, 2008)

AllieBaba said:


> Lack of anything better to do.


That is usually what any ridiculous lawsuit is about.


----------



## AllieBaba (Dec 16, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> We're here to discuss whether there is a war on Christmas or not.  Isn't that why you're here too?
> 
> We're here to discuss our opinions and to back them up.  There is no war on Christmas.  Christmas is alive and well.
> 
> There does appear to be conflict about whether it makes any sense in a multi-cultural America to extend the same greeting to all, no matter who they are.



I think it's pretty obvious from this thread that there is a war on CHristmas and all things overtly Christian.

It's idiotic to assume that we can use our telekenetic mind reading powers to determine the appropriate greeting for every person we see based upon what they look like. Merry Christmas is a universal greeting of good cheer. If you don't like it, hole up in  your bunker and stay out of the midst of normal human beings.

I also have no problem with a cheerful greeting of "Happy Hannukah!" or "Praise Allah how the hell are you?"


----------



## AllieBaba (Dec 16, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> You appear in your posts to be very much at war.



Yes, but it's pretty much been acknowledged that your human-o-meter is some clicks off.


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 16, 2008)

AllieBaba said:


> *I think it's pretty obvious from t his threat that there is a war on CHristmas and all things overtly Christian.*
> 
> It's idiotic to assume that we can use our telekenetic mind reading powers to determine the appropriate greeting for every person we see based upon what they look like. Merry Christmas is a universal greeting of good cheer. If you don't like it, hole up in  your bunker and stay out of the midst of normal human beings.
> 
> I also have no problem with a cheerful greeting of "Happy Hannukah!" or "Praise Allah how the hell are you?"




So you're going to use Christmas to launch the new crusades?  Hole up in your bunker with your weapons.

Good luck with that.


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 16, 2008)

AllieBaba said:


> Yes, but it's pretty much been acknowledged that your human-o-meter is some clicks off.



It's pretty much been acknowledged that your posts are the least Christ-like anyone has ever seen.

Which one of the ten commandments tells you to shove your anger down everyones throat?


----------



## Grismonda (Dec 16, 2008)

AllieBaba said:


> I think it's pretty obvious from this thread that there is a war on CHristmas and all things overtly Christian.
> 
> It's idiotic to assume that we can use our telekenetic mind reading powers to determine the appropriate greeting for every person we see based upon what they look like. Merry Christmas is a universal greeting of good cheer. If you don't like it, hole up in  your bunker and stay out of the midst of normal human beings.
> 
> I also have no problem with a cheerful greeting of "Happy Hannukah!" or "Praise Allah how the hell are you?"



Likewise, what is wrong with saying "Happy Holidays"???  Who is offended by that greeting?  It covers the entire holiday season until New Years.


----------



## AllieBaba (Dec 16, 2008)

Maybe Jehovah's Witnesses, who don't celebrate holidays.


----------



## AllieBaba (Dec 16, 2008)

Or Muslims who may see it a sign of Western degradation, money grubbing and lack of spiritual insight.


----------



## AllieBaba (Dec 16, 2008)

Or my dog, who according to Agnew has a more developed sense of self than a child and who may think "Happy Holidays" represents a challenge to her authority.


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 16, 2008)

AllieBaba said:


> Maybe Jehovah's Witnesses, who don't celebrate holidays.




Maybe other Christians, who think Christmas is a pagan holiday.  I worked with one of those women.  Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, atheists don't celebrate Christmas.


----------



## Grismonda (Dec 16, 2008)

AllieBaba said:


> Maybe Jehovah's Witnesses, who don't celebrate holidays.



Good to know!  The next time they knock on my door, instead of greeting them skyclad, I will wish them Merry Christmas...that should take care of their trespassing misdeeds!


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 16, 2008)

AllieBaba said:


> Or Muslims who may see it a sign of Western degradation, money grubbing and lack of spiritual insight.



Contempt for Muslims, have you?  How Christlike.


----------



## AllieBaba (Dec 16, 2008)

Nice try but no banana.


----------



## FistyTheBadger (Dec 16, 2008)

Grismonda said:


> Likewise, what is wrong with saying "Happy Holidays"???  Who is offended by that greeting?  It covers the entire holiday season until New Years.


It is a lazy replacement of "Merry Christmas" that serves to neuter the holiday.


----------



## Grismonda (Dec 16, 2008)

FistyTheBadger said:


> It is a lazy replacement of "Merry Christmas" that serves to neuter the holiday.



Well, Happy Mithros, Badger!   (did I say that?)


----------



## del (Dec 16, 2008)

FistyTheBadger said:


> It is a lazy replacement of "Merry Christmas" that serves to neuter the holiday.



and all this time i thought christmas balls were named that because of their shape.

go figure.


----------



## sky dancer (Dec 16, 2008)

"Tell me if you've heard this one before: a Muslim, three Jews, and ten Christians walk into a subway... and then the Muslim has to come to the aid of the Jews who are being attacked by peace-loving Christians. OK, maybe you haven&#8217;t heard it before, but would you be surprised to learn that the altercation started when one of the Jews dared to wish the Christians a "Happy Hanukkah" rather than a "Merry Christmas"?

" Friday's altercation on the Q train began when somebody yelled out "Merry Christmas," to which rider Walter Adler responded, "Happy Hanukkah," said Toba Hellerstein. 

"Almost immediately, you see the look in this guy's face like I've called his mother something," Adler told CNN affiliate WABC. Two women who were with a group of 10 rowdy people then began to verbally assault Adler's companions with anti-Semitic language, Hellerstein said. 

One member of the group allegedly yelled, "Oh, Hanukkah. That's the day that the Jews killed Jesus," she said. When Adler tried to intercede, a male member of the group punched him, she said. 

Source: CNN 
Happy Hanukkah: Muslim Defends Jews from Militant Christians


----------



## RodISHI (Dec 16, 2008)

_Famous Brady quote, "One who is born with head up ass spends life fighting for air."_

*Rod*


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Dec 16, 2008)

Grismonda said:


> Instead you can invite some Druids over and make it a very merry day!  Also   invite a few Persians (Roman soliders actually) to cover Mithros....while you are at it!



As long as they bring an extra punkin pie.  

Actually, this year our featured guest is a Satanist who was raised by Jehovah's Witness parents, and has never celebrated ANY holiday.  He got behind the idea of Christmas when my 13-year-old explained that the REAL underlying meaning of it was getting presents.


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Dec 16, 2008)

FistyTheBadger said:


> I agree, but the handful of jerks are very vocal and very powerful.



They're loud, but they're really only powerful because judges, the media, and a lot of stupid people listen to them.  If we all ignored them, as tantrum-throwing children deserve to be, we'd all be better off.


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Dec 16, 2008)

AllieBaba said:


> Actually, I thought Christmas was celebrated by our forefathers.
> 
> I know that in the dark and middle ages it was celebrated, but it wasn't so much CHristmas as Michaelmas and a couple of other saints days that all sort of fell around the same time.
> 
> Big whoop. The Christians have decided to use it as a time to celebrate the birth of Christ. Some people use it to celebrate winter and a season of giving. Who gives a shit? Like I said, some people need to get a hobby, or spend some more time doing things that really matter, and quit obsessing about shutting down everyone else's lives.



Some of our forefathers did, some didn't.  Depends on the religious tradition they came from.

In the SCA (medieval recreation) we celebrate Twelfth Night, with each night from Boxing Day on being marked by a different household hosting a huge, drunken party.


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Dec 16, 2008)

Grismonda said:


> Likewise, what is wrong with saying "Happy Holidays"???  Who is offended by that greeting?  It covers the entire holiday season until New Years.



It's not that there's anything wrong with it _per se_, and I'm certainly not going to get my panties wadded over it, but generally speaking, the person using it is probably doing so as a mealymouthed, wimpy attempt to be "diverse", which doesn't exactly fill me with respect.


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## Cecilie1200 (Dec 16, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> Maybe other Christians, who think Christmas is a pagan holiday.  I worked with one of those women.  Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, atheists don't celebrate Christmas.



Yes, but most people of non-Christian traditions who live in the US are accustomed to the fact that the vast majority of Americans DO celebrate Christmas in some form, and don't really give it a lot of thought.  It would be as if I had moved to India and had to adjust myself to their holidays and traditions.


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## rayboyusmc (Dec 16, 2008)

Keep on moving folks.  Nothing to be seen here.  Just more side issues to distract from the real stuff.


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## Grismonda (Dec 16, 2008)

Cecilie1200 said:


> *probably* doing so as a mealymouthed, wimpy attempt to be "diverse", which doesn't exactly fill me with respect.



Can you give us the statistic "probablity" of those wishing Happy Holidays as being mealymouthed.  Inquiring minds would love to observe your empirical data.


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## Agnapostate (Dec 16, 2008)

Cecilie1200 said:


> Yes, but most people of non-Christian traditions who live in the US are accustomed to the fact that the vast majority of Americans DO celebrate Christmas in some form, and don't really give it a lot of thought.  It would be as if I had moved to India and had to adjust myself to their holidays and traditions.



Might we have a taker to explain the discrepancies between the Gospels of Mark and John, as well as the additions of Mark 16:9-20 and John 7:53-8:11?


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## FistyTheBadger (Dec 16, 2008)

Cecilie1200 said:


> They're loud, but they're really only powerful because judges, the media, and a lot of stupid people listen to them.  If we all ignored them, as tantrum-throwing children deserve to be, we'd all be better off.


But we don't ignore them because we respond to new emotions instead of logic and common sense.


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## sky dancer (Dec 16, 2008)

Cecilie1200 said:


> Yes, but most people of non-Christian traditions who live in the US are accustomed to the fact that the vast majority of Americans DO celebrate Christmas in some form, and don't really give it a lot of thought.  It would be as if I had moved to India and had to adjust myself to their holidays and traditions.



No one is accustomed to getting beat up over not using the proper greeting for the Christmas holiday.


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## Cecilie1200 (Dec 16, 2008)

FistyTheBadger said:


> But we don't ignore them because we respond to new emotions instead of logic and common sense.



I don't have a lot of patience with emotion as a replacement for thought.  If God had wanted us to think with our glands, He wouldn't have given us brains as well.


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## FistyTheBadger (Dec 16, 2008)

Cecilie1200 said:


> I don't have a lot of patience with emotion as a replacement for thought.  If God had wanted us to think with our glands, He wouldn't have given us brains as well.


I am not defending, I am only explaining.


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## Cecilie1200 (Dec 16, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> No one is accustomed to getting beat up over not using the proper greeting for the Christmas holiday.



No, I don't mean that.  I mean that Jews and others who've lived here a long time are aware that most people in this country celebrate Christmas, and don't actually get themselves into a lather over it being more prominent than their own holiday.  I like to believe most Americans in general have a more "live and let live" attitude.

Those people you mentioned having fistfights are examples - thankfully isolated examples - of what I've been saying about the pathetic irony of turning a wish for joy and happiness in someone else's life into a battleground.  Someone needs to go soak his head in a bucket of ice water and get some frigging perspective.  A lot of someones.


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## AllieBaba (Dec 16, 2008)

Agnapostate said:


> Might we have a taker to explain the discrepancies between the Gospels of Mark and John, as well as the additions of Mark 16:9-20 and John 7:53-8:11?



You would get more if you actually voiced what the discrepancies are, instead of just trotting out the passages by chapter and verse and expecting people to read your mind about what you imagine the discrepancies are.


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## Cecilie1200 (Dec 16, 2008)

AllieBaba said:


> You would get more if you actually voiced what the discrepancies are, instead of just trotting out the passages by chapter and verse and expecting people to read your mind about what you imagine the discrepancies are.



I'd ask him to explain what the Hell it has to do with the thread topic first.


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## YWN666 (Dec 16, 2008)

Originally Posted by YWN666  
That is a lot of baloney. On what basis would anyone sue a store for putting up a sign that says Merry Christmas?? What would the cause of action be?



FistyTheBadger said:


> ​ Discrimination and prejudice.



Yeah, good luck with that! That's not a legal cause of action against a private company.  You can whine about it and you can even boycott the store but you don't have a legal leg to stand on.


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## Agnapostate (Dec 16, 2008)

AllieBaba said:


> You would get more if you actually voiced what the discrepancies are, instead of just trotting out the passages by chapter and verse and expecting people to read your mind about what you imagine the discrepancies are.



Is this a joke? I defined them so incredibly clearly for you, yet you couldn't get it through your dense skull.


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## del (Dec 16, 2008)

i like figs.

how about you?


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## Anguille (Dec 16, 2008)

del said:


> i like figs.
> 
> how about you?



You do? Go figure!


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## AllieBaba (Dec 16, 2008)

Agnapostate said:


> Is this a joke? I defined them so incredibly clearly for you, yet you couldn't get it through your dense skull.



No, you have never defined anything clearly. You mentioned a 3-day or 3-hour discrepancy. That's it. Means nothing and you didn't elaborate. 

So don't expect someone to get into a big discussion with you about it when you are incapable of articulating your position. Other than blather about the timeline, which is of course meaningless.


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## YWN666 (Dec 16, 2008)

del said:


> i like figs.
> 
> how about you?



God hates figs


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## del (Dec 16, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> God hates figs




well played.


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## FistyTheBadger (Dec 16, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> God hates figs


Well, nobody is making him eat them.  He doesn't have to become a whiny brat over nothing.  DO YOU HEAR ME GOD!?  JUST PUSH THE FUCKING FIGS TO THE SIDE!


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## sky dancer (Dec 16, 2008)

FistyTheBadger said:


> Well, nobody is making him eat them.  He doesn't have to become a whiny brat over nothing.  DO YOU HEAR ME GOD!?  JUST PUSH THE FUCKING FIGS TO THE SIDE!



Fig power!  Fig power!  Those evil figs.  They insist on being rude.  Always saying, 'eat me'.


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## Zoom-boing (Dec 16, 2008)

Rasmussen on Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays

MyFox Philadelphia | FOX TV | Rasmussen Reports On: Holiday Greetings, Gas Prices


#4 = Excellent!  Everyone should strive to be in the purple.


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## Chris (Dec 16, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> God hates figs



Bring del some figgy pudding!


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## KittenKoder (Dec 16, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> Rasmussen on Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays
> 
> MyFox Philadelphia | FOX TV | Rasmussen Reports On: Holiday Greetings, Gas Prices
> 
> ...



LOL ... see, no war. The majority still uses christmas.


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## FistyTheBadger (Dec 16, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> LOL ... see, no war. The majority still uses christmas.


Those pie charts do not record trends.


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## KittenKoder (Dec 16, 2008)

FistyTheBadger said:


> Those pie charts do not record trends.



But those who still celebrate it are in the majority, there cannot be a war on something until the opposition to it has a chance of exceeding the majority in this country. That's what Democracy protects. So, either those claiming there is a war are wrong (or just lying) or they fear they will no longer be the majority, in which case our democracy states it doesn't matter what they say. If the minority are suppose to be protected by the majority that unravels a LOT of other arguments.


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## KittenKoder (Dec 17, 2008)

I have a question for all those who believe there is a 'war on christmas.' If there was then hasn't anything changed since it started in the 80's?

Daily Kos: The Religious Right's War on Christmas Began Centuries Ago
Who Started the War on Christmas? - The Daily Beast
Consortiumnews.com

I remember that era, even though I was still christian at the time I was even laughing then, so was my right-wingnut mother. So in spite of the obvious leftist sources, it's been nothing but one HUGE joke for two decades. One funny part of the last one is that many right-wingnuts keep claiming FOX is leftist, yet they clearly do more rightist stories.


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## YWN666 (Dec 17, 2008)

FistyTheBadger said:


> Well, nobody is making him eat them.  He doesn't have to become a whiny brat over nothing.  DO YOU HEAR ME GOD!?  JUST PUSH THE FUCKING FIGS TO THE SIDE!




I was kidding but did manage to find this:

God Hates Figs?


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## catzmeow (Dec 17, 2008)

YWN666 said:


> God hates figs



Orange you glad that we have the lunatic fringe to keep us informed of who and what God hates?


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## YWN666 (Dec 17, 2008)

catzmeow said:


> Orange you glad that we have the lunatic fringe to keep us informed of who and what God hates?



Fundies are always a source of entertainment.  Purely unintentional on their part but amusing just the same.


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## WhatTheHell2 (Dec 17, 2008)

There is no war againt Christmas and if there is someone who is against Christmas they  should be ignored and keep their mouth shut. 
I am a Christian and I do not celebrate Christmas and I dare any one who tries to make me celebrate it.
I believe Christ is the son of God, born to a virgin, died for our sins but I cannot see him being born on Dec 25 the date Saturnalia celebration of the Sun, and no where in the bible was Christ birthday was ever celebrated, What does Santa Claus, Christmas trees, etc have to do with the birth of Christ. It is one of those days that is a tradition or custom and it is and has never been a tradition of my family. I detest cutting down trees or cutting flowers.
Christmas holidays is one of the saddest time of my life and when it comes around I remember Jer 10; ( the cut tree) Isa 1;10-15, Gal 4;8-11 and I could not celebrate Christmas even if I wanted to for fear of displeasing GOD. I celebrate he death because he told me to.1 Cor 11; 23-26


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## Zoom-boing (Dec 17, 2008)

KittenKoder said:


> LOL ... see, no war. .



So that means . . . . _you_ all have been arguing against . . . . a figment of our imagination.


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## sky dancer (Dec 17, 2008)

WhatTheHell2 said:


> There is no war againt Christmas and if there is someone who is against Christmas they  should be ignored and keep their mouth shut.
> I am a Christian and I do not celebrate Christmas and I dare any one who tries to make me celebrate it.
> I believe Christ is the son of God, born to a virgin, died for our sins but I cannot see him being born on Dec 25 the date Saturnalia celebration of the Sun, and no where in the bible was Christ birthday was ever celebrated, What does Santa Claus, Christmas trees, etc have to do with the birth of Christ. It is one of those days that is a tradition or custom and it is and has never been a tradition of my family. I detest cutting down trees or cutting flowers.
> Christmas holidays is one of the saddest time of my life and when it comes around I remember Jer 10; ( the cut tree) Isa 1;10-15, Gal 4;8-11 and I could not celebrate Christmas even if I wanted to for fear of displeasing GOD. I celebrate he death because he told me to.1 Cor 11; 23-26



I have a good friend who is Christian in the same manner that you are and she doesn't celebrate Christmas either for the same reasons you've stated.

Thanks for offering your unique perspective.


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## Cecilie1200 (Dec 17, 2008)

WhatTheHell2 said:


> There is no war againt Christmas and if there is someone who is against Christmas they  should be ignored and keep their mouth shut.
> I am a Christian and I do not celebrate Christmas and I dare any one who tries to make me celebrate it.
> I believe Christ is the son of God, born to a virgin, died for our sins but I cannot see him being born on Dec 25 the date Saturnalia celebration of the Sun, and no where in the bible was Christ birthday was ever celebrated, What does Santa Claus, Christmas trees, etc have to do with the birth of Christ. It is one of those days that is a tradition or custom and it is and has never been a tradition of my family. I detest cutting down trees or cutting flowers.
> Christmas holidays is one of the saddest time of my life and when it comes around I remember Jer 10; ( the cut tree) Isa 1;10-15, Gal 4;8-11 and I could not celebrate Christmas even if I wanted to for fear of displeasing GOD. I celebrate he death because he told me to.1 Cor 11; 23-26



With all due respect, you would be one of the people I was talking about when I said some folks need to lighten up.  I mean, celebrate or don't celebrate whatever you want.  Makes no difference to me.  But if God really has a big enough stick up His butt that he would be "displeased" over a Christmas celebration, then I don't want to worship Him.


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## ABikerSailor (Dec 17, 2008)

Cecilie1200 said:


> With all due respect, you would be one of the people I was talking about when I said some folks need to lighten up.  I mean, celebrate or don't celebrate whatever you want.  Makes no difference to me.  But if God really has a big enough stick up His butt that he would be "displeased" over a Christmas celebration, then I don't want to worship Him.



First off.......what makes you think that God has a stick up his butt?

Second.........what the FUCK are you trying to do?  Make a God-sicle?

Third........with your disrespectful attitude, what makes you think that He'd want you to worship Him?


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## YWN666 (Dec 17, 2008)

> With all due respect, you would be one of the people I was talking about when I said some folks need to lighten up. I mean, celebrate or don't celebrate whatever you want. Makes no difference to me. But if God really has a big enough stick up His butt that he would be "displeased" over a Christmas celebration, then I don't want to worship Him.




The issue is not that people are displeased with a Christmas celebration.  The issue is people that are displeased that someone else _isn't_ celebrating christmas.


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## AllieBaba (Dec 17, 2008)

Who the hell is forcing anyone to celebrate Christmas?

AS has been said..remove corncob from ass and proceed.


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## Ravi (Dec 17, 2008)

AllieBaba said:


> Who the hell is forcing anyone to celebrate Christmas?
> 
> AS has been said..remove corncob from ass and proceed.


Allie, you wouldn't be able to stand up without that corncob up your ass and you know it.


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## sky dancer (Dec 17, 2008)

Believe me, I doubt Jesus cares if his birth is celebrated.  How he lived his life, what he taught, how he died and his resurrection may be another matter.

Isn't the whole point of Christ's teachings to be 'Christ-like"?


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## AllieBaba (Dec 17, 2008)

And to be tolerant. He made it a point a couple of times that it was foolish to offend people who followed different traditions.


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## AllieBaba (Dec 17, 2008)

Ravi said:


> Allie, you wouldn't be able to stand up without that corncob up your ass and you know it.



Are you saying you want it back now? Give me a moment....


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## WillowTree (Dec 17, 2008)

Merry Merry Christmas everyone!


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## KittenKoder (Dec 17, 2008)

Zoom-boing said:


> So that means . . . . _you_ all have been arguing against . . . . a figment of our imagination.



May as well be, but all most of us keep saying is just that 'there is no war' and for some reason nut-jobs still want there to be a war they can be victims in so much that they continually post nonsense that isn't even real half the time. It's humorous so why not keep repeating it:

There is NO war on christmas. 

... your next silly little attempts to claim there is ....


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## AllieBaba (Dec 17, 2008)

Sorry, everything posted on this site proves there is.


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## KittenKoder (Dec 17, 2008)

AllieBaba said:


> Sorry, everything posted on this site proves there is.



 Yeah ... sure it does. 
 Allie


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## AllieBaba (Dec 17, 2008)

See, this is another example of what you don't know about logic.

Just because you say something, doesn't make it so. You say there is no war on Christmas...and yet there is post after post after post on this board, posted within the last 48 hours, which put the lie to what you say.

So you can say whatever you like, the proof is in the pudding.

But you don't understand that because you don't think logically. Which is why you can never make a point. All you do is blunder around aimlessly, make ridiculous claims which you refuse to back up, then change the subject.


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## KittenKoder (Dec 17, 2008)

Alright ... *snicker* Show where anyone has said they hate it when someone else says 'merry christmas' or where anyone said that no one should be allowed to have trees, decorations, or any of that. Now to be a war you have to come up with at least 3 different posts from three different posters, otherwise it's just one persons opinion.


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## sky dancer (Dec 17, 2008)

The war on Christmas exists in the minds of some people.  That doesn't mean conspiracy theories or that Christians are an endangered species and that there is any way that Christmas in this day and age in America is at risk of going away.

The real meaning of Peace on Earth, Goodwill to All, happiness and merriment appears to get lost in the divisiveness of those who want to create and exploit a culture war.

John Gibson, Bill O'Reilly, Ann Coulter are suspects that ought to be tried for Christmas War crimes.


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## Anguille (Dec 17, 2008)

I'm an atheist and I love my atheist Xmas. Any Xtian that tries to steal it from me will have hell to pay!! 

Put'em up, Allie B.!


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## FistyTheBadger (Dec 18, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> Believe me, I doubt Jesus cares if his birth is celebrated.  How he lived his life, what he taught, how he died and his resurrection may be another matter.
> 
> Isn't the whole point of Christ's teachings to be 'Christ-like"?


You sound mighty lazy to me.  "Jesus doesn't care if we do anything to show our love for him.  He just wants us to believe stuff and be able to masturbate with the thought that we are generally good people."


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## FistyTheBadger (Dec 18, 2008)

WillowTree said:


> Merry Merry Christmas everyone!


Merry Christmas to you, too.


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## SpidermanTuba (Dec 18, 2008)

There's no war on Christmas. Anyone who thinks there is, is a moron.


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## FistyTheBadger (Dec 18, 2008)

SpidermanTuba said:


> There's no war on Christmas. Anyone who thinks there is, is a moron.


You just blew my mind. [/sarcasm]


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## sky dancer (Dec 18, 2008)

FistyTheBadger said:


> You sound mighty lazy to me.  "Jesus doesn't care if we do anything to show our love for him.  He just wants us to believe stuff and be able to masturbate with the thought that we are generally good people."



You give the term 'non-sequitur' new meaning.


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## FistyTheBadger (Dec 18, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> You give the term 'non-sequitur' new meaning.


I hope its new meaning is "deep insight that is well received by those welcoming to logic and wisdom."


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## sky dancer (Dec 18, 2008)

FistyTheBadger said:


> I hope its new meaning is "deep insight that is well received by those welcoming to logic and wisdom."



Non-sequitur is latin and means "this does not follow".


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## FistyTheBadger (Dec 18, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> Non-sequitur is latin and means "this does not follow".


That sounds an aweful lot like its *old* meaning.  Come on, dancer!  Get with the times, man.  It is December 18th, 2008, not December 17th, 2008.  Don't you know anything?  It is a brand new world, home slice.  Diggity flabbity boom, my diggery dooger flap baby!


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## sky dancer (Dec 18, 2008)

FistyTheBadger said:


> That sounds an aweful lot like its *old* meaning.  Come on, dancer!  Get with the times, man.  It is December 18th, 2008, not December 17th, 2008.  Don't you know anything?  It is a brand new world, home slice.  Diggity flabbity boom, my diggery dooger flap baby!



What's new language, pig latin?


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## FistyTheBadger (Dec 18, 2008)

sky dancer said:


> What's new language, pig latin?


New language is novo idioma.


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## dudmuck (Nov 6, 2021)

SpidermanTuba said:


> There's no war on Christmas. Anyone who thinks there is, is a moron.


there is this year, according to republicans



			https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/why-christmas-2021-already-ruined.html


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## ABikerSailor (Dec 2, 2021)

Not only has Christmas occupied November, but they are fighting skirmishes and making inroads into October.

When I was a young lad, I used to joke that eventually you would see Santa Claus with his arm around the Thanksgiving Turkey, and both would be holding bags of Halloween candy.

Sadly...............that joke is now a reality.


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## Richard-H (Dec 2, 2021)

The Christians stole the Yule celebration from the pagans.





__





						BBC - Religions - Paganism: Winter Solstice
					

The Pagan celebration of Winter Solstice (also known as Yule) is one of the oldest winter celebrations in the world.




					www.bbc.co.uk
				




festivus.


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## bendog (Dec 2, 2021)

Zoom-boing said:


> Try as they may the secular progressives will not win this war.
> 
> A Colbert Christmas: Toby Keith Sings | | ColbertNation.com
> 
> (Give the video a few minutes to load).


Buy his album


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## bendog (Dec 2, 2021)

Richard-H said:


> The Christians stole the Yule celebration from the pagans.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


GRINCH!  LOL


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