# UN Maps show we are losing in Afghanistan



## zzzz (Dec 27, 2010)

The release of 2 confidentail UN "residual risk accessibility" maps show that insurgents have relocated from the south where the main focus of combat is occuring to other parts of the country. Areas that were safe are no longer safe and the country as a whole is worse off than 6 months ago.

The Wall Street Journal article has the maps at the following:

U.N. Maps Rate Afghanistan Less Secure - WSJ.com

This is another example of how not to occupy a country or fight insurgents. Sufficient amount of forces is necassary to occupy all of the country to keep insurgents from moving around the country to avoid direct contact with security forces. Now that we have committed to leave all they have to do is avoid any direct contact and do their little bombings and ambushes and eventually they will have the country to themselves and the Taliban can regain control.


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## hipeter924 (Dec 27, 2010)

zzzz said:


> The release of 2 confidentail UN "residual risk accessibility" maps show that insurgents have relocated from the south where the main focus of combat is occuring to other parts of the country. Areas that were safe are no longer safe and the country as a whole is worse off than 6 months ago.
> 
> The Wall Street Journal article has the maps at the following:
> 
> ...


I don't think so, the main problem is that the US has not learned from Vietnam, rather than fighting guerrilla warfare with guerrilla warfare which is a proven strategy (used by commonwealth forces) during the Malaya war against communist insurgents the US military sticks to major battles, tactical strikes and random searches for militants (the same failed strategy used in Vietnam). If the US stuck to guerrilla warfare, arming local warlords and building up the economy in Afghanistan then the war would have been over years ago, all the current situation in Afghanistan demonstrates is that the US military needs an overhaul and that some leaders at the top have to go, that is if the US really wants to win the war. 

PS: You would think after training the Taliban the CIA would have the good sense to realize the threat it is facing and be able to deal with it, after all it did train it.


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## editec (Dec 27, 2010)

Every war of occupation with the motive of the submission of a hostile population is a losing proposition.

The only time a nation can subdue a people is by murdering so many of them that their society falls apart or if those people are WILLING to be subdued.


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## Marc39 (Dec 27, 2010)

editec said:


> Every war of occupation with the motive of the submission of a hostile population is a losing proposition.
> 
> The only time a nation can subdue a people is by murdering so many of them that their society falls apart or if those people are WILLING to be subdued.



Ever even come close to opening a history book?

Afghanistan was a peaceful Buddhist country before the Muzzie barbarians occupied it and subdued and murdered the Buddhists and destroyed the country.

Now, you know


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## High_Gravity (Dec 27, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> editec said:
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Actually Afghanistan was far better off in the 1960s before the Mujahideen, Al Qaeda and Taliban came to the country and fucked it up.


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## High_Gravity (Dec 27, 2010)

Afghanistan now.
















What progress.


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## Ropey (Dec 27, 2010)

Too right!


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## (R)IGHTeous 1 (Dec 28, 2010)

Hold up.  WE WIN every battle we're ever in with those pieces of shit.  They always run, hide, plant IEDs, ambush, etc.  We're used to that by now.....

Of course they're gonna run north when we focus on the south, but we are without a doubt gonna win there.

We have what, 6 more months to get this right?  Just sweep whatever areas needed, bomb whatever we have to, train the Afghan Army and security forces the best we can, etc.


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## Muhammed (Dec 28, 2010)

hipeter924 said:


> PS: You would think after training the Taliban the CIA would have the good sense to realize the threat it is facing and be able to deal with it, after all it did train it.


 What makes you think the US was "training the Taliban"? Who told you that and why did you believe them?


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## Muhammed (Dec 28, 2010)

High_Gravity said:


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You forgot to mention the Soviet invasion DAN.


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## Douger (Dec 28, 2010)

High_Gravity said:


> Afghanistan now.
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If you zoom in on that it probably says made in murka


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## California Girl (Dec 28, 2010)

That's why our military are so great. They're generally so much more intelligent than civilians.... they understand that stuff is hard and takes time.... civilians are more whiny.


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## High_Gravity (Dec 28, 2010)

Muhammed said:


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Shut your cock holster.


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## High_Gravity (Dec 28, 2010)

Muhammed said:


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The Soviets haven't been in Afghanistan for more than 20 years, your religion of peace and tolerance ruined Afghanistan.


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## Sunni Man (Dec 28, 2010)

High_Gravity said:


> The Soviets haven't been in Afghanistan for more than 20 years, your religion of peace and tolerance ruined Afghanistan.


Incorrect.

Afghanistan was just fine under Islam and Sharia..

It was the Russians, and later the American invaders, who ruined the country.


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## Cain (Dec 28, 2010)

Sunni Man said:


> High_Gravity said:
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Although I am sure the Cold War didn't help Afghanistan very much when it comes to freedoms of any sort, I am pretty sure Sharia Law wouldn't exactly help Freedom of Speech or Religion in some instances. 

I believe just fine depends on what just fine is, your just fine is probably a lot different then mine. Same for anyone else.


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## zzzz (Dec 28, 2010)

The military knows how to fight and win battles and if given the proper political backing can win wars. It is a misconception that the military wins wars. Politicans win and lose wars! That may not seem right but it is they who decide the parameters of the conflict and determine how much force to commit and the rules of the conflict. They also decide when it is time to quit and call it victory. They never call it defeat.


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## Sunni Man (Dec 28, 2010)

Cain said:


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The Afghan people didn't want to live under Russia's godless communism.

Neither do they want to live under American style of godless secular democracy.

They were just fine living under the Freedoms that Islam and Sharia provided them.


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## High_Gravity (Dec 28, 2010)

Sunni Man said:


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Freedom and Shariah don't belong in the same sentence Sunni and you know that.


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## Sunni Man (Dec 28, 2010)

High_Gravity said:


> Freedom and Shariah don't belong in the same sentence Sunni and you know that.


Under Sharia muslim people have the God given Freedoms to live a live pleasing to their Creator.


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## High_Gravity (Dec 28, 2010)

Sunni Man said:


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I don't recall there being too many freedoms under the kind of Shariah the Taliban put the people of Afghanistan under, and I don't remember the people of Afghanistan choosing to live that way either.


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## editec (Dec 28, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> editec said:
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How far back would you like to go?

You forgot the pantheism thanks to Alexander, the  Zoroastrains, thanks to the Persians, and Hindu influence thanks to the Moguls.


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## Sunni Man (Dec 28, 2010)

High_Gravity said:


> I don't recall there being too many freedoms under the kind of Shariah the Taliban put the people of Afghanistan under, and I don't remember the people of Afghanistan choosing to live that way either.


The Afghan people have lived under Sharia Law for centuries and were just fine with it.

It wasn't until the Russians, and later the Americans, invaded them and tried to change them, that the problems started.


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## Marc39 (Dec 28, 2010)

Sunni Man said:


> High_Gravity said:
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> > I don't recall there being too many freedoms under the kind of Shariah the Taliban put the people of Afghanistan under, and I don't remember the people of Afghanistan choosing to live that way either.
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Sharia law that allows for wife beating, amputations and stoning. 

Afghanistan was a peaceful Buddhist country before the Muzzie troglodytes conquered them and destroyed the country, like Muzzies destroy everything that's good and decent.

The religion of savagery...

Quran 9:5...


> Then when the Sacred Months have passed, then kill the idolaters wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât), and give Zakât, then leave their way free. Verily, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful


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## High_Gravity (Dec 28, 2010)

Sunni Man said:


> High_Gravity said:
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That maybe the case but the kind of Shariah law Afgans lived under in the 1960s was a total different system than what the Taliban instituted when they took power.


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## Marc39 (Dec 28, 2010)

Sunni Man said:


> High_Gravity said:
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Sharia: Wife beating, stoning, amputations, murder of non-Muslims, banning of all music and poetry.  

*Why I left Islam
By Waleed Al-Husseini *


> *Islam is an authoritarian religion that does not respect the individuals&#8217; freedom of choice, which is easily noticeable from its barbaric verdicts such as stoning the adulterous, pushing the homosexuals off a cliff and killing the apostates for daring to express a different viewpoint. Then there is the plight of other religions&#8217; followers in the Muslim State. Islam urges its followers to fight the infidels until they convert or agree to pay a tax known as "Jizya" per capita in total submission.The sacred texts in Islam also encourage blatant war and conquest of new territories to spread the religion of Muhammad, instead of using peaceful means to convey the message, relying only on a rational argumentative scheme; something that Islam, like any other religion for that matter, evidently lacks. It is simply a terrible insult to human values and a proof of unprecedented dementia.*
> 
> I was flabbergasted when I learnt the commandments of Islam regarding the alliance and disavowal and the aberrant division of the world into believers and unbelievers, with all the outrageous provisions this implies for the "Dhimmis" and the&#8221; Jizya "!  A man also has the right to correct his wife by beating her and / or deserting the marital bed if she refuses to submit to his will. She has no choice when it comes to satisfying his sexual desire whenever he feels like it, with no regard whatsoever of her feelings and desires.
> 
> ...


Why I left Islam


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## Samson (Dec 28, 2010)

zzzz said:


> The release of 2 confidentail UN "residual risk accessibility" maps show that insurgents have relocated from the south where the main focus of combat is occuring to other parts of the country. Areas that were safe are no longer safe and the country as a whole is worse off than 6 months ago.
> 
> The Wall Street Journal article has the maps at the following:
> 
> ...



First, I wouldn't trust the U.N. to fight its way out of a wet paper bag.

Second:



> U.S.-led coalition forces operate in Afghanistan _*under a U.N. Security Council mandate, and the U.N. works hand-in-hand with the coalition*_ on building up Afghan government institutions. The Taliban have repeatedly attacked U.N. buildings and personnel, labeling the U.N. an instrument of American imperialism.



Third, "they will have the country to themselves," only if all the OTHER AFGHANS leave, or are slaughtered.

I suggest the country's internal security sources get their shit together if they don't want another Taliban Government.


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## Sunni Man (Dec 28, 2010)

High_Gravity said:


> That maybe the case but the kind of Shariah law Afgans lived under in the 1960s was a total different system than what the Taliban instituted when they took power.


The version of Sharia the Taliban was stricter than others. but it was still Sharia.

Basically, it should be up to the Afghan people to decide whether to follow that version of Sharia or not.


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## Marc39 (Dec 28, 2010)

Sunni Man said:


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*Sharia Law, Jihad *[Umdat al-Salik wa Uddat al-Nasik]


> Jihad means to war against non-Muslims, and is etymologically derived from the word mujahada, signifying warfare to establish the religion.


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## Marc39 (Dec 28, 2010)

Sunni Man said:


> High_Gravity said:
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> > That maybe the case but the kind of Shariah law Afgans lived under in the 1960s was a total different system than what the Taliban instituted when they took power.
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Islam, the religion of wife-beating.

Quran 4:34...


> *Allah has made men superior to women because men spend their wealth to support them. Therefore, virtuous women are obedient, and they are to guard their unseen parts as Allah has guarded them. As for women whom you fear will rebel, admonish them first, and then send them to a separate bed, and then beat them*. But if they are obedi-ent after that, then do nothing further; surely Allah is exalted and great!


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## Skull Pilot (Dec 28, 2010)

There is no "winning" in Afghanistan.

We should butt out and let them live their lives in the fucking stone age if that's what they want.


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## High_Gravity (Dec 28, 2010)

Skull Pilot said:


> There is no "winning" in Afghanistan.
> 
> We should butt out and let them live their lives in the fucking stone age if that's what they want.



Thats what we were doing until 9/11 happened, just because their living like Fred Flinstone doesn't mean they can't be dangerous. There were no US Troops in Afghanistan until 9/11 happened.


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## Marc39 (Dec 28, 2010)

Sunni Man said:


> High_Gravity said:
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Shariah law does not punish parents who murder their own children and grandchildren in "honor killings".

Umdat al-Salik wa Uddat al-Nasik... 


> *o1.1:  Who Is Subject To Retaliation For Injurious Crimes*
> Retaliation is obligatory against anyone who kills a human being purely intentionally and without right.
> 
> *o1.2:  The following are not subject to retaliation*...
> A father or mother (or their father and mothers) for killing their offspring, or offspring's offspring


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## High_Gravity (Dec 28, 2010)

Sunni Man said:


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Thats the thing, under the Taliban there no choices. I agree that the Afghan people do deserve to choose whether they want to live like that or not but under the Taliban they would not get that.


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## Skull Pilot (Dec 28, 2010)

High_Gravity said:


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The entire country did not commit the crimes on 9/11.

A very small group of men did that.  And face it 9/11 happened in large part because we were complacent and over confident.  We could stop terrorists attack by securing our borders and revamping our security in regards to immigration.  There is no need to occupy an entire country.


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## Marc39 (Dec 28, 2010)

Skull Pilot said:


> There is no "winning" in Afghanistan.
> 
> We should butt out and let them live their lives in the fucking stone age if that's what they want.



Depopulate the Muzzies and repopulate Afghanistan with their peaceful indigenous Buddhists.

Muhammadanism is a dreadful curse.

Alexis de Toqueville...


> I studied the Koran a great deal. I came away from that study with the conviction there have been few religions in the world as deadly to men as that of Muhammad. So far as I can see, it is the principal cause of the decadence so visible today in the Muslim world and, though less absurd than the polytheism of old, its social and political tendencies are in my opinion to be feared, and I therefore regard it as a form of decadence rather than a form of progress in relation to paganism itself.



Winston Churchill...


> How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy.
> 
> The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.
> 
> ...



[ame=http://www.amazon.com/River-War-Sir-Winston-Churchill/dp/1598184253/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1288411221&sr=8-1]Amazon.com: The River War (9781598184259): Sir Winston S. Churchill: Books[/ame]


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## High_Gravity (Dec 28, 2010)

Skull Pilot said:


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After 9/11 happened, the US had to do something. The attacks were planned and the people trained in Afghanistan, not doing anything would make the US look weak and invite even more attacks. I do agree however that the war was seriously mismanaged, under manned and underfunded, which is why wer in the situation that we are today in Afghanistan.


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## Marc39 (Dec 28, 2010)

Skull Pilot said:


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Islam committed 9/11.  

Quran 9:5...
Then when the Sacred Months have passed, then kill the idolaters wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât), and give Zakât, then leave their way free. Verily, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful 

Quran 9:29... 
Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allâh, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allâh and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islâm) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah[] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.


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## Skull Pilot (Dec 28, 2010)

High_Gravity said:


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We'll have to disagree on the necessity of invading Afghanistan.  I do not believe it was necessary.


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## Sunni Man (Dec 28, 2010)

High_Gravity said:


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So we invaded a whole country and destroyed it looking for ONE man?   

btw there was only an estimated 200 Al Qaeda in Afghanistan.


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## Marc39 (Dec 28, 2010)

Sunni Man said:


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The religion of peace...

Muslim attack on 9/11, killing 3,000 
Ongoing Muslim genocide in Darfur and southern Sudan, 4 million killed
Muslims slaughter 60 Christians in church in Iraq
Muslim bombings in Mumbai, India kill 250, 700 injured
Muslim bombings in Londin, 53 killed, 700 injured
Multiple Muslim bombings on trains near Madrid, Spain. 191 killed, 1460 injured 
Muslim bombing in Bali nightclub, 202 killed, 300 injured
Muslim bombing attacks in Russia kill 300
Musim attack on Beslan, Russia school, 344 killed including 186 children 
Muslim attack on the Christian community in Demsa, 
Nigeria, killing 36 people, destroying property and displacing an additional 3000 people
Muslim attack on the Hindu Ram temple in India; one of the most holy sites of Hinduism, 6 dead. 
Muslim bombings in India, over 60 killed and over 180 injured in crowded markets and a bus, just 2 days before the Diwali  festival
Muslim bombings in Varanasi, India, series of attacks in the Sankath Mochan Hanuman temple and Cantonment Railway Station, 28 killed and over 100 injured
Muslim bombings in India, 21 explosive devices, 56 dead and 200 injured. 
Muslim bombings in Delhi, India, 30 people dead and 130 injured, followed by attack two weeks later, 3 people dead.   
Muslims kill at least 174 people and wound numerous others in attacks in Mumbai. 
Muslims detonate car bomb in Pakistan shopping district, killing over 110 killed and over 200 injured. 
Muslim suicide bomber in Somalia detonates in hotel  hosting a graduation ceremony for local medical students, killing four government ministers as well as other civilians.
Muslim suicide bomber in Pakistan drove into a volleyball pitch as people gathered to watch a match killing more than 100 people
Muslims attack mosques in Pakistan, killing nearly 100 and injuring many others  
Muslim attacks on the Hindu Raghunath temple, India, 25 dead. 
Muslim bombing in al-Arbaa, Algeria. 49 dead, 117 injured. 
Muslim suicide attack on Indian parliament kills 7, wounds 12 
Muslim machine gun attack on Hindu temple in India. 31 dead, 86 injured

Iran Iraq War, 1 million dead
Lebanese Civil War, 250,000 dead
Algerian Civl War: 300,000 dead
Bangladesh Civil War: 500,000 dead
Black Sept., Jordan's King Hussein murders, expells 80,000 Palestinians
Syrian army kills 20,000 Syrians at Hama
Iraq gases hundreds of thousands of Kurds
300 US Marines killed in Beirut
1400 year conflict between Sunnis and Shiites
Fratricide between Hamas and Fatah
Syria/Hizballah assassinate Lebanese PM Rafik Hariri

Alexis de Toqueville...


> I studied the Koran a great deal. I came away from that study with the conviction there have been few religions in the world as deadly to men as that of Muhammad. So far as I can see, it is the principal cause of the decadence so visible today in the Muslim world and, though less absurd than the polytheism of old, its social and political tendencies are in my opinion to be feared, and I therefore regard it as a form of decadence rather than a form of progress in relation to paganism itself.


 
Winston Churchill...


> How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy.
> 
> The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.
> 
> ...


 
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/River-War-Sir-Winston-Churchill/dp/1598184253/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1288411221&sr=8-1]Amazon.com: The River War (9781598184259): Sir Winston S. Churchill: Books[/ame]


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## High_Gravity (Dec 28, 2010)

Skull Pilot said:


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What should the response have been?


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## High_Gravity (Dec 28, 2010)

Sunni Man said:


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The invasion was never about finding 1 person, it was to dismantle the Al Qaeda training camps in Afghanistan and stop them from using Afghanistan as a base. What should we have done Sunni? sit here and do nothing?


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## Marc39 (Dec 28, 2010)

Sunni Man said:


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Why have Muzzies invaded once-Buddhist Afghanistan and once-Christian and Jewish Middle East, slave of allah?

 Muslim Conquests


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## Skull Pilot (Dec 28, 2010)

High_Gravity said:


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Covert Black ops to take out the people involved not the whole scale invasion of 2 countries.

Then we slam our borders shut, revamp our own border security and make it impossible to come to America and over stay a visa or to be here illegally


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## Sunni Man (Dec 28, 2010)

High_Gravity said:


> The invasion was never about finding 1 person, it was to dismantle the Al Qaeda training camps in Afghanistan and stop them from using Afghanistan as a base. What should we have done Sunni? sit here and do nothing?


We could have pinpointed any area of the country we thought Al Qaeda was hiding and flooded it with air strikes and troops.

After we had taken care of business. Air lifted our people out and hit another suspected AQ site.

Instead, we invaded the whole country and chased a bunch of Taliban.

Who were just mainly a bunch of farmers and had zero connection to 9/11 or Al Qaeda.


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## Marc39 (Dec 28, 2010)

Sunni Man said:


> High_Gravity said:
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Sharia law = Female Genital Mutilation To Destroy Sexual Response  

Umdat al-Salik wa Uddat al-Nasik


> E4.3 Circumcision is obligatory (O: for both men and women. For men it consists of removing the prepuce from the penis, and *for women, removing the prepuce (Ar. Bazr) of the clitoris *


Reliance of The Traveller: Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law


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## High_Gravity (Dec 28, 2010)

Sunni Man said:


> High_Gravity said:
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> > The invasion was never about finding 1 person, it was to dismantle the Al Qaeda training camps in Afghanistan and stop them from using Afghanistan as a base. What should we have done Sunni? sit here and do nothing?
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The Taliban consider Al Qaeda their guests and helped train them and supply them places to plan and launch their attacks, I don't believe they had 0 connection to 9/11. Plus if they were just a bunch of farmers like you say this war would have been over years ago, these are experienced fighters with decades of combat experience.


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## Marc39 (Dec 28, 2010)

Sunni Man said:


> Who were just mainly a bunch of farmers and had zero connection to 9/11 or Al Qaeda.



But, 9/11 has 100% connection with Islam, slave of allah.  

Osama bin Laden...


> Those who want people to worship the lord of the people, without following that doctrine, will be following the doctrine of Muhammad, peace be upon him.
> 
> *I was ordered to fight the people until they say there is no god but Allah, and his prophet Muhammad.' *


washingtonpost.com


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## Sunni Man (Dec 28, 2010)

High_Gravity said:


> Plus if they were just a bunch of farmers like you say this war would have been over years ago, these are experienced fighters with decades of combat experience.



The Taliban are basically citizen soldiers much like the Minute Men during the Revolutionary War.

Yes, they had decades of experience, but hardly any heavy weapons and no air force or navy.

To say they were/are a threat to the U.S. soil is absurd.


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## High_Gravity (Dec 28, 2010)

Sunni Man said:


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The Taliban were given an offer to hand over Bin Laden and his top Al Qaeda deputies before they war but they refused the offer. Plus the Taliban is a Guerilla force, these kinds of forces do not need an Air Force or Navy to be effective.


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## Sunni Man (Dec 28, 2010)

High_Gravity said:


> The Taliban were given an offer to hand over Bin Laden and his top Al Qaeda deputies before they war but they refused the offer. Plus the Taliban is a Guerilla force, these kinds of forces do not need an Air Force or Navy to be effective.


Incorrect.

They offered to hand over Bin Laden and Pres. Bush refused.


*Bush rejects Taliban offer to surrender bin Laden*

After a week of debilitating strikes at targets across Afghanistan, the Taliban repeated an offer to hand over Osama bin Laden, only to be rejected by President Bush.

After a week of debilitating strikes at targets across Afghanistan, the Taliban repeated an offer to hand over Osama bin Laden, only to be rejected by President Bush.

The offer yesterday from Haji Abdul Kabir, the Taliban's deputy prime minister, to surrender Mr bin Laden if America would halt its bombing and provide evidence against the Saudi-born dissident was not new but it suggested the Taliban are increasingly weary of the air strikes, which have crippled much of their military and communications assets.

The move came as the Taliban granted foreign journalists unprecedented access to the interior for the first time. Reporters were escorted to the village of Karam in southern Afghanistan, where the Taliban said up to 200 civilians were killed in an American bombardment last Wednesday.

Mr Kabir said: "If America were to step back from the current policy, then we could negotiate." Mr bin Laden could be handed over to a third country for trial, he said. "We could discuss which third country."

But as American warplanes entered the second week of the bombing campaign, Washington rejected the Taliban offer out of hand. "When I said no negotiations I meant no negotiations," Mr Bush said. "We know he's guilty. Turn him over. There's no need to discuss innocence or guilt."

Bush rejects Taliban offer to surrender bin Laden - Asia, World - The Independent


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## High_Gravity (Dec 28, 2010)

Sunni Man said:


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> > The Taliban were given an offer to hand over Bin Laden and his top Al Qaeda deputies before they war but they refused the offer. Plus the Taliban is a Guerilla force, these kinds of forces do not need an Air Force or Navy to be effective.
> ...



Read what its in the article, the Taliban offered to hand Bin Laden over to a third party country, not to the US itself and they still wanted more proof of his guilt. They were not serious about handing him or his deputies over to the US. Plus at the time they really wanted the air strikes to stop, and were stalling for time.


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## Sunni Man (Dec 28, 2010)

High_Gravity said:


> Read what its in the article, the Taliban offered to hand Bin Laden over to a third party country, not to the US itself and they still wanted more proof of his guilt. They were not serious about handing him over his deputies over to the US.


That's because at the time the U.S. had NO proof of his guilt.

So they wanted to hand him over to a third party and not to the blood thirsty Bush administration.

Now almost 10 years later, thousands of dead American soldiers, and a trillion dollars later. 

We are still looking for him.

Still think the retard Bush made the right call??


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## High_Gravity (Dec 28, 2010)

Sunni Man said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> > Read what its in the article, the Taliban offered to hand Bin Laden over to a third party country, not to the US itself and they still wanted more proof of his guilt. They were not serious about handing him over his deputies over to the US.
> ...



Well I do think Bush under funded, under manned and just mismanaged the work in Afghanistan. Until recently we only had 10,000 US Troops in that country, a country much bigger, more diverse and more dangerous than Iraq. The results we are seeing now is because of all those problems in the past, there never were enough people or resources on the ground in Afghanistan to get it right and it looks like there still isn't.


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## Sunni Man (Dec 28, 2010)

High_Gravity said:


> Well I do think Bush under funded, under manned and just mismanaged the work in Afghanistan. Until recently we only had 10,000 US Troops in that country, a country much bigger, more diverse and more dangerous than Iraq. The results we are seeing now is because of all those problems in the past, there never were enough people or resources on the ground in Afghanistan to get it right and it looks like there still isn't.


The Afghans have been fighting invaders for generations. 

It's in their blood, culture, and tradition.

Even if we had a million troops over there we still couldn't defeat them.

They would fight to the last afghan to defend their country, culture, and religion.


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## Marc39 (Dec 28, 2010)

Sunni Man said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> > Well I do think Bush under funded, under manned and just mismanaged the work in Afghanistan. Until recently we only had 10,000 US Troops in that country, a country much bigger, more diverse and more dangerous than Iraq. The results we are seeing now is because of all those problems in the past, there never were enough people or resources on the ground in Afghanistan to get it right and it looks like there still isn't.
> ...



Er, the Muzzies invaded Afghanistan, when it was a Buddhist country.  Ever open a history book, Abu?

Oh, that's right, Muzzies LIBERATED Afghanistan from the Buddhist idolators, according to allah's will  

Quran 9:5...
Then when the Sacred Months have passed, then kill the idolaters wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât), and give Zakât, then leave their way free. Verily, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful


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## High_Gravity (Dec 28, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > High_Gravity said:
> ...



Buddhism in Afghanistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Marc39 (Dec 28, 2010)

High_Gravity said:


> Marc39 said:
> 
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> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



Thank you for that.  Allah invented Wikipedia, right?


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## High_Gravity (Dec 28, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> High_Gravity said:
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Yes as well as Facebook, Google and Adultfriendfinder


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## Marc39 (Dec 28, 2010)

High_Gravity said:


> Marc39 said:
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Allah invented match.com for jihadists


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## High_Gravity (Dec 28, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
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Allah also invented cars, air conditioners and strip clubs.


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## Marc39 (Dec 28, 2010)

High_Gravity said:


> Marc39 said:
> 
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Only thing allah has not invented yet is an intelligent mind for Muslims

An old Islamic adage is the mind is like a donkey and you leave the donkey outside when you enter the house of allah.


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## Marc39 (Dec 28, 2010)

High_Gravity said:


> Allah also invented strip clubs.



Allah is most wise and benificent.  Hey, where do I sign up?


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## High_Gravity (Dec 28, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
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They should encourage free thinking, might make things better no?


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## High_Gravity (Dec 28, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> > Allah also invented strip clubs.
> ...



He invented the strip clubs but you don't get to see those until you go to paradise, such places are banned in all Islamic countries.


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## Skull Pilot (Dec 28, 2010)

High_Gravity said:


> Marc39 said:
> 
> 
> > High_Gravity said:
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Yeah those Islamic strip clubs are the only place in town to see full frontal ankle.


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## High_Gravity (Dec 28, 2010)

Skull Pilot said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
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Hell yeah son!


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## Marc39 (Dec 28, 2010)

Skull Pilot said:


> High_Gravity said:
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Muslima women are known to wear burqas sans panties underneath.


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## High_Gravity (Dec 28, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
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I hooked up with an Iranian chick once when I was in California, pussy wasn't bad.


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## Marc39 (Dec 28, 2010)

High_Gravity said:


> Marc39 said:
> 
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Well, shahids have 1000 year orgasms in paradise and houris re-grow their hymens to remain virgins, so, it's well worth the wait even if they are clitorally mutilated under sharia law 

Allahu Akbar!


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## High_Gravity (Dec 28, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> High_Gravity said:
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I wouldn't want to go to heaven just for some pussy though.


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## Marc39 (Dec 28, 2010)

High_Gravity said:


> Marc39 said:
> 
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If she didn't swallow, allah sez you could beat up the disobedient Muslima.  

Allah doesn't like Muslimas who spit rather than swallow


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## High_Gravity (Dec 28, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> High_Gravity said:
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I don't actually know if she was Muslim to be honest, we only hooked up for one night and I barely got to know anything about her, just that was she from Iran.


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## Marc39 (Dec 28, 2010)

High_Gravity said:


> Marc39 said:
> 
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Then, definitely never convert to Islam, even if they try to force you by the sword, because, once you go Muslim, there's no turning back.   Death to apostates


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## Marc39 (Dec 28, 2010)

High_Gravity said:


> Marc39 said:
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And, you allowed her to return to Iran?  She's probably a houri by now in paradise, assassinated for having sex with a KAFIR.


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## Marc39 (Dec 28, 2010)

High_Gravity said:


> Marc39 said:
> 
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Another Islamic adage is: Thinking Is Infidelity, because, Muslims are slaves to allah not permitted to think freely.  Sad, really.


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## High_Gravity (Dec 28, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> High_Gravity said:
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LOL I don't think she went back to Iran, at least in her case I hope not. She was pretty free spirited and out going and she likes to drink.


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## Cain (Dec 28, 2010)

Sunni Man said:


> Cain said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



Godless? That is debatable. Since God is everywhere, technically nothing can be Godless. Their can be 'less god-like" but to compare one to God is rather offensive. I wouldn't claim anything is Godless, unless your God.


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## asterism (Dec 28, 2010)

hipeter924 said:


> zzzz said:
> 
> 
> > The release of 2 confidentail UN "residual risk accessibility" maps show that insurgents have relocated from the south where the main focus of combat is occuring to other parts of the country. Areas that were safe are no longer safe and the country as a whole is worse off than 6 months ago.
> ...



Interesting point about the economy, I agree it's crucial.  But outside of Opium, what does Afghanistan have?


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## Samson (Dec 28, 2010)

asterism said:


> hipeter924 said:
> 
> 
> > zzzz said:
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Precious metals and mineral ore.


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## Samson (Dec 28, 2010)

Skull Pilot said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
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That makes absolutely too much sense.

However, "we" are in Afganistan with the UN (see the OP) "coalition."

Whenever the UN is mentioned "we" need to suppose that the presence of US forces to achieve US goals is probably a very minor factor.

Let's just take gander at the UN Security Council's Permanent Members: 

Russia, China, France, GB, USA.

Here are the numbers:



> United States &#8211; 95,000
> United Kingdom &#8211; 10,500
> Germany &#8211; 4,877
> France &#8211; 3,850
> ...



Now it is evident to me that Russians probably shouldn't be sent to A-stan as part of



> The International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) is a NATO-led security mission in Afghanistan established by the United Nations Security Council on 20 December 2001 by Resolution 1386[2] as envisaged by the Bonn Agreement.[3] It is engaged in the War in Afghanistan (2001&#8211;present).



But what about China?

WTF is up with France? 3,850 troops? And the rest of the European Continent? They cannot muster more than 20,000 troops?

No, let's face it: The UN continues to use the USA's blood and resources to remedy their own problems. And We let them, because left to their own devices, they create bigger problems.


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## José (Dec 28, 2010)

> Originally posted by *Sunni Man*
> The version of Sharia the Taliban was stricter than others. but it was still Sharia.
> 
> Basically, it should be up to the Afghan people to decide whether to follow that version of Sharia or not.





> Originally posted by *High_Gravity*
> Thats the thing, under the Taliban there no choices. I agree that the Afghan people do deserve to choose whether they want to live like that or not but under the Taliban they would not get that.



I have a question for High_Gravity and (mainly) Sunni Man.

Who is this individual you're talking about? Who's this gentleman you call "Afghan people" who, according to you, desperately wants to live under an islamic theocracy? I would love to meet this guy personally.

If you are reffering to the collectivity of human beings who live in that country you'd better think twice because I can introduce both of you to hundreds of thousands of afghans who do not want to be forced to adjust their personal lives to any kind of medieval rule of conduct.

Of course the majority of Afghans who support shariah law has the physical power to disrespect their rights as taxpaying citizens of Afghanistan and commit the brutal disrespect of imposing a religious dictatorship that will interfere with their personal lives.

They have the physical power to do so, no doubt about it, but they don't have any moral right to do it.


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## Sunni Man (Dec 28, 2010)

The Afghan people lived under Sharia long before the Taliban came to power.

And Sharia will be the law of the land after the western powers leave Afghanistan.


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## José (Dec 28, 2010)

> Originally posted by *Sunni Man*
> The Afghan people lived under Sharia long before the Taliban came to power.
> 
> And Sharia will be the law of the land after the western powers leave Afghanistan.



I couldn't have summed up the totalitarian nature of the political model known as theocracy any better.

Deeply religious afghans, by virtue of being the majority, have the "right" to impose their way of life on secular afghans by brute force.

tsk, tsk, tsk...


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## Sunni Man (Dec 28, 2010)

José;3138433 said:
			
		

> Deeply religious afghans, by virtue of being the majority, have the "right" to impose their way of life on secular afghans by brute force.


Afghanistan is a muslim country governed by Sharia Law.

Any of these secular Afghans you claim to know are free to leave at any time.


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## José (Dec 28, 2010)

Sunni Man said:


> José;3138433 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



OK, then Sunni...  

"*Hate the sin but love the sinner.*"

"*Hate religious fundamentalism but love the fundamentalist.*"    

Someday in the future, we're gonna bury your medieval ideology once and for all *EVEN IN SAUDI ARABIA*, but I'll continue to love every peaceful theocrat of any stripe, specially a funny one like you.


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## (R)IGHTeous 1 (Dec 28, 2010)

Samson said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > High_Gravity said:
> ...





Agreed.

And China's easy.  Cmon man, me and you both know they wanna see us fall.  I'm pretty sure it'll be a cold day in hell before they send even 1 soldier, medic, etc. to help us anywhere.


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## Marc39 (Dec 29, 2010)

Sunni Man said:


> José;3138433 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Abu, I guess you fell asleep during the infidel history class when they taught the fact that Afghanistan was a Buddhist country BEFORE being conquered and ruined by the Muhammadan?

Read, learn,, slave of allah: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_in_Afghanistan

After all, the religion of peace says to kill the Buddhist idolator...

Quran 9:5...


> Then when the Sacred Months have passed, then kill the idolaters wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât), and give Zakât, then leave their way free. Verily, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful


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## High_Gravity (Dec 29, 2010)

José;3138388 said:
			
		

> > Originally posted by *Sunni Man*
> > The version of Sharia the Taliban was stricter than others. but it was still Sharia.
> >
> > Basically, it should be up to the Afghan people to decide whether to follow that version of Sharia or not.
> ...



I never said the Afghans wanted to live under Islamic law, I said they have the right to make a choice of whether or not they should live that way.


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## José (Dec 29, 2010)

> Originally posted by *High_Gravity*
> I never said the Afghans wanted to live under Islamic law, I said they have the right to make a choice of whether or not they should live that way.


Here you go again talking about that imaginary guy that only exists in your mind, the Afghan people.

You have religious afghans:
















and secular afghans:






















Religious afghans have every right to live their personal lives according to the teachings of the Koran (they can do exactly that in a secular state).

But they have no right to use their numbers to impose an Islamic government on their fellow countrymen who do not share their religious fervor.


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## High_Gravity (Dec 29, 2010)

José;3139796 said:
			
		

> > Originally posted by *High_Gravity*
> > I never said the Afghans wanted to live under Islamic law, I said they have the right to make a choice of whether or not they should live that way.
> 
> 
> ...



Jose I agree with you man, I am the one who posted those pics originally, calm down. I think the Afghans should be allowed to live as they want.


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## José (Dec 29, 2010)

> Originally posted by *High_Gravity*
> Jose I agree with you man, I am the one who posted those pics originally, calm down. I think the Afghans should be allowed to live as they want.



OK, dude... my criticism wasn't really directed at you in the first place...

I just can't believe the irony of Sunni Man's words went unnoticed to the whole Board. 

Sunni Man: We in the West must *DEMOCRATICALLY* respect the right of the religious majority in Afghanistan to impose a religious *DICTATORSHIP* on the secular minority.

It's a *DICTATORSHIP* desired by the majority so we must call it a *DEMOCRATIC DICTATORSHIP*.

   

The guy is a riot.


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## Sunni Man (Dec 29, 2010)

The Afghan people have had a form of Democracy for centuries.


*Loya Jirga  (Grand Assembly)*

Despite the fact that traditions of jirgas are as old as the civilisation of Afghanistan is, yet its practice to turn it into regular national phenomenon on a grand scale was owned by the more modern rulers and inhabitants of Afghanistan. Following the rise of Mirwais Khan Hotak as leader of Afghans, the jirgas became a national and regular feature for deciding matters of common concern.

*There are two types of Loya Jirgas:* One called by the people themselves at the time of national crisis to deliberate and decide upon matters of war and peace, election of Amir or King, and restoration of national sovereignty and national independence. Secondly, when the circumstances and rules of the game compel the ruler or leader to consult people with regard to urgent and important matters, like enactment of fundamental law, ratification and endorsement of treaties reached with outside powers and defence of territorial integrity and national sovereignty. 

Afghanland.com Afghanistan Loya Jirga


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## Marc39 (Dec 29, 2010)

Sunni Man said:


> The Afghan people have had a form of Democracy for centuries.



Abu, Afghanistan was a peaceful Buddhist country before the savage Muhammadan invaded and destroyed it, like the Muhammadan has turned every Islamic country into a shithole.

Read, learn, ignorant slave of allah...
Buddhism in Afghanistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Muhammadanism is a dreadful curse, Abu.  Go back to Arabia where you belong.

Alexis de Toqueville...


> I studied the Koran a great deal. I came away from that study with the conviction there have been few religions in the world as deadly to men as that of Muhammad. So far as I can see, it is the principal cause of the decadence so visible today in the Muslim world and, though less absurd than the polytheism of old, its social and political tendencies are in my opinion to be feared, and I therefore regard it as a form of decadence rather than a form of progress in relation to paganism itself.



Winston Churchill...


> How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy.
> 
> The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.
> 
> ...



[ame=http://www.amazon.com/River-War-Sir-Winston-Churchill/dp/1598184253/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1288411221&sr=8-1]Amazon.com: The River War (9781598184259): Sir Winston S. Churchill: Books[/ame]


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## hipeter924 (Dec 29, 2010)

Marc39 said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > The Afghan people have had a form of Democracy for centuries.
> ...


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLviGqEE4Aw&feature=related[/ame]

They destroyed it to cover it up, just like Turk's blow up Armenian, Greek, Assyrian, Kurdish villages,etc to hide the Genocides they have committed over the years.


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## MOOE (Jan 8, 2011)

The British didn´t learn in 1842, the Russians didn´t learn and the United States don´t learn. The question is why? Several politians here say: "Our liberty is defended at the Hindukusch". I think this is a kind of bullshit. With all military means you can´t change a culture that has a different history for many hundreds of years. I think it´s serious what the Bush-Men made with this stereotyped black-white painting of good and bad. And the long term consequences will be more serious, I suppose. As a german I say thank you to the US to liberate Europe from this inhuman fascist regime from June 1944 on until those german bastards were beaten. But things and reasons for war have changed and I guess that the military cost -along other reasons- perhaps can make the US Financial System collapse.


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## editec (Jan 8, 2011)

If American foreign policy was really sensible, our best friend  in the central Asia would be IRAN.

But as our foreign policy is crafted for the benefit of corporations, rather than for society as a whole, our allies are societies that aren't at all like ours.

Saudi Arabia, for example.

Nothing in that society is remotely sympathetic to our way of life.


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## trobinett (Jan 9, 2011)

zzzz said:


> The release of 2 confidentail UN "residual risk accessibility" maps show that insurgents have relocated from the south where the main focus of combat is occuring to other parts of the country. Areas that were safe are no longer safe and the country as a whole is worse off than 6 months ago.
> 
> The Wall Street Journal article has the maps at the following:
> 
> ...



Now that you have the Knowledge, if we can believe those maps, what would you do?

Nothing?

Leave the country NOW?

Bring in more troops?

Nuke the place?

Send in boat loads of money?

Win their "hearts and minds"?

Or, just keep posting irrelevant bull shit?


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## LibocalypseNow (Jan 25, 2011)

These Maps are accurate. According to my sources,the Taliban control a large portion of Afghanistan. We are losing Afghanistan. Make no mistake about that.


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## High_Gravity (Jan 25, 2011)

LibocalypseNow said:


> These Maps are accurate. According to my sources,the Taliban control a large portion of Afghanistan. We are losing Afghanistan. Make no mistake about that.



If those maps are from the UN though I wouldn't put much stake in them.


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## High_Gravity (Jan 25, 2011)

editec said:


> If American foreign policy was really sensible, our best friend  in the central Asia would be IRAN.
> 
> But as our foreign policy is crafted for the benefit of corporations, rather than for society as a whole, our allies are societies that aren't at all like ours.
> 
> ...



Nothing in Saudi Arabias society is sympathetic to our way of life, but Iran is? the same Iran where women are stoned to death for adultry and where the religious police monitor peoples haircuts? that Iran? get the fuck out of here with that.


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