# A Year Since MH-17 Tragedy



## Stratford57

On July, 17 it will be exactly a year since the flight MH-17 has been intercepted by a rocket and the Malaysian Boeing with almost 300 people on its board crashed. And after a year we still have as much information about it as the first few days.

1.  The communications between the pilots and the Ukrainian air traffic controllers have never been published. In all other cases the communications have been published same or the next day after the crash.
2.  “Irrefutable evidence” of who has shot the Boeing, which Obama has been claiming to have, has never been presented.

All above sounds like everybody, who has access to the true information about the reasons and the causers of the tragedy  [Obama and official Kiev] , are not interested for the truth to come out. Why? May be because it contradicts their geopolitical games?…

Obama is so arrogant to think that he is so great and all the world is so damn to believe his words automatically without any evidence.


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## indiajo

Stratford57 said:


> On July, 17 it will be exactly a year since the flight MH-17 has been intercepted by a rocket and the Malaysian Boeing with almost 300 people on its board crashed. And after a year we still have as much information about it as the first few days.
> 
> 1.  The communications between the pilots and the Ukrainian air traffic controllers have never been published. In all other cases the communications have been published same or the next day after the crash.
> 2.  “Irrefutable evidence” of who has shot the Boeing, which Obama has been claiming to have, has never been presented.
> 
> All above sounds like everybody, who has access to the true information about the reasons and the causers of the tragedy  [Obama and official Kiev] , are not interested for the truth to come out. Why? May be because it contradicts their geopolitical games?…
> 
> Obama is so arrogant to think that he is so great and all the world is so damn to believe his words automatically without any evidence.



I think he has some other problems presently.
One is possibly to find a suitable home for Poroshenko, after all this will be the next Ukrainian president leaving the country by a nightly flight, this time direction west, after the fascist mercenaries, hired and trained by Academi, now turn their guns against their master.

Karma is  bitch.


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## Camp

Today is anniversary of Russian linked rebels with Russian help murdered plane load of innocent people

de.storyclash.com/Field-of-death-Unraveling-the-mystery-of-MH17-4424195


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## Camp

Russia will not allow UN to investigate with a tribunal. They are only country to veto it. Like giving valid endorsement to Crimea annexation, Russia stands alone. To this day Crimea is not looked as a real country that had a real election, and to this day and beyond Russia will be blamed for murder of airline passengers by shooting down MH-17  over Ukraine. 

bbc.com/news/world-europe-33710088


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## Stratford57

Russia has vetoed a draft of a UN Security Council resolution calling for an international tribunal on the crash of the Malaysian Airlines MH17 flight over eastern Ukraine last July and classifying the plane’s downing as a threat to peace and security.

Despite the veto, Moscow is ready to assist the investigation into the reasons for the Malaysian Boeing 777 crash, Russian UN envoy Vitaly Churkin said.

“_Russia stands ready to cooperate in the conduct of a full independent and objective investigation of the reasons and circumstances of the crash,_” he said.

Russia vetoes MH17 tribunal draft at UN Security Council RT News

The US, which has the best intelligence gathering capabilities on earth, is trying to deny justice by refusing to release a full intelligence assessment of the MH17 case, Daniel McAdams, executive director of the Ron Paul Institute told RT.

*RT:* _Russia's UN envoy Vitaly Churkin explained the legal reasons for the veto. But US ambassador Samantha Power's message was very different. She has almost put all the blame on Russia. Why such a difference in stance here? Why is there such a different viewpoint?_

*Daniel McAdams:*I think just watching Ambassador Power’s reaction to the expected veto shows why the veto was made in the first place. It is a pure propaganda ploy on the part of the US and those who are towing the US line on this. She essentially says: By vetoing this extraordinary proposal just confirms that Russia is guilty of the shooting. If you read between the lines- that is what she is saying. It’s just unbelievable, and… it’s clearly being used for propaganda purposes. We haven’t even seen the final report yet. Why would you go to the lengths to do something totally unusual like this?

*RT:* _So now we know the result of the vote. What reaction can we expect from the international community?_

*DM:*The countries that tow the US line will try to use this as further proof. But if you want to talk about what the Ambassador said:_“Russia is trying to deny justice.”_… We know that somebody did it: It was Russia, Ukraine or the separatists, it was an accident, or it was on purpose. But it isn’t [considered] unusual that this proposal was drafted by Ukraine, which is one of the suspects in the crime. It must be unprecedented in criminal history to have one of the suspects draft a proposal like this.

 Why does the US refuse to release full intelligence assessment of MH17 plane crash RT Op-Edge


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## Camp

Ron Paul is a nobody that at one time was a wanna be important guy that America rejected years ago. He is viewed by most who pay attention to fringe radical elements as a hopeless isolationist. His spokesperson for his so called institute is a person of no meaningful stature. Just another commentator with a radical agenda. 
No excuses you make will work to change peoples minds. Veto of the UN Tribunal means Russia has something to hide.


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## Tehon

Camp said:


> Ron Paul is a nobody that at one time was a wanna be important guy that America rejected years ago. He is viewed by most who pay attention to fringe radical elements as a hopeless isolationist. His spokesperson for his so called institute is a person of no meaningful stature. Just another commentator with a radical agenda.
> No excuses you make will work to change peoples minds. Veto of the UN Tribunal means Russia has something to hide.


Putin is absolutely correct in his veto. He has already been convicted in the court of public opinion with zero evidence presented by his accusers. We have yet to see the report on the incident but it appears that it will also point in the direction of Russia without providing evidence. Would there be an expectation of a fair trial in a legal setting? I don't think so. Being that a veto by Russia was a given, it would seem to me that Mr. McAdams is correct in his assessment that the resolution is a mere propaganda stunt. If we are going to prosecute this case in public, as the West has done, the least they can do is provide some evidence that their accusations against Russia have merit.
Your attempt to disparage Ron Paul and Daniel McAdams is a huge fail and calls attention to the weakness of your argument..... such that it is. Radical agenda?


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## Camp

Tehon said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ron Paul is a nobody that at one time was a wanna be important guy that America rejected years ago. He is viewed by most who pay attention to fringe radical elements as a hopeless isolationist. His spokesperson for his so called institute is a person of no meaningful stature. Just another commentator with a radical agenda.
> No excuses you make will work to change peoples minds. Veto of the UN Tribunal means Russia has something to hide.
> 
> 
> 
> Putin is absolutely correct in his veto. He has already been convicted in the court of public opinion with zero evidence presented by his accusers. We have yet to see the report on the incident but it appears that it will also point in the direction of Russia without providing evidence. Would there be an expectation of a fair trial in a legal setting? I don't think so. Being that a veto by Russia was a given, it would seem to me that Mr. McAdams is correct in his assessment that the resolution is a mere propaganda stunt. If we are going to prosecute this case in public, as the West has done, the least they can do is provide some evidence that their accusations against Russia have merit.
> Your attempt to disparage Ron Paul and Daniel McAdams is a huge fail and calls attention to the weakness of your argument..... such that it is. Radical agenda?
Click to expand...

The link I provided in post #3 offers plenty of evidence. My so called attempt to disparage Ron Paul is simply stating facts that you do not want to accept. He tried to be an important guy here in America and failed. I never heard of Daniel McAdams. These men are not leaders in America. They are just guys who make a living out of talking. They have no power. Ron Paul at one time had a small following, but not anymore. You should know that. Russians are being fooled to think differently.  Read the link in post #3.


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## ESay

Stratford57 said:


> *DM:*The countries that tow the US line will try to use this as further proof. But if you want to talk about what the Ambassador said:_“Russia is trying to deny justice.”_… We know that somebody did it: It was Russia, Ukraine or the separatists, it was an accident, or it was on purpose. But it isn’t [considered] unusual that this proposal was drafted by Ukraine, which is one of the suspects in the crime. It must be unprecedented in criminal history to have one of the suspects draft a proposal like this.



This McAdams is a funny gay.

Firstly. Unless I am mistaken, it is Malaysia that prepared the draft and gave it to the Security Council. And after that Ukraine as well as Australia, Belgium, and the Netherlands gave their support of the document.

Secondly. If he is talking about Ukraine ‘which is one of the suspects in the crime’ and ‘It must be unprecedented in criminal history to have one of the suspects draft a proposal like this’ then why he isn’t talking about Russia being also among suspects of the crime and that it is quite illogical to give it a right to vote on the tribunal. It is the same thing if a murder suspect would be given a right to reject the trial because it is according to their opinion is political show. Isn’t it unprecedented in criminal history?


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## Tehon

ESay said:


> Secondly. If he is talking about Ukraine ‘which is one of the suspects in the crime’ and ‘It must be unprecedented in criminal history to have one of the suspects draft a proposal like this’ then why he isn’t talking about Russia being also among suspects of the crime and that it is quite illogical to give it a right to vote on the tribunal. It is the same thing if a murder suspect would be given a right to reject the trial because it is according to their opinion is political show. Isn’t it unprecedented in criminal history?


Your opinion highlights the absurdity of the UN resolution. If there was more evidence than what has been produced for magazine articles then the perpetrators would be brought to justice without the need for such theatrics. Thank you. Now, maybe Camp can also see this point and stop worrying about Ron Paul's popularity, especially since it is completely irrelevant.


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## Sonc

I guess we'll never know for sure who is to blame.
But there are a few simple questions.

1) Cui bono (/ kwiː boʊnoʊ /), literally "to whose benefit?"
What is the benefit Russia? None. This is advantageous the United States to accuse Putin.
Or you can tell in what benefit of Russia?

2) If Russia was hit by a plane, why we did not destroy the "black box"? Pro-Russian separatists were there first. The offender sends a a record of how committed a crime?

3) Where is this record? Why didn't anyone told what upon it written?


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## Camp

Tehon said:


> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> Secondly. If he is talking about Ukraine ‘which is one of the suspects in the crime’ and ‘It must be unprecedented in criminal history to have one of the suspects draft a proposal like this’ then why he isn’t talking about Russia being also among suspects of the crime and that it is quite illogical to give it a right to vote on the tribunal. It is the same thing if a murder suspect would be given a right to reject the trial because it is according to their opinion is political show. Isn’t it unprecedented in criminal history?
> 
> 
> 
> Your opinion highlights the absurdity of the UN resolution. If there was more evidence than what has been produced for magazine articles then the perpetrators would be brought to justice without the need for such theatrics. Thank you. Now, maybe Camp can also see this point and stop worrying about Ron Paul's popularity, especially since it is completely irrelevant.
Click to expand...

You are attacking the messenger, the magazine, instead of the message. The magazine is just publishing data that has been found during investigations, including information that came out in the official preliminary report put out by the Dutch investigation. The cell phone intercepts and social media comments make it pretty clear that separatist and Russians were involved to many people. There are also eye witnesses who saw the missile launch from separatist territory along with a photo of it's vapor trail. The BUK was tracked with photo's in Russia, traveling into Ukraine, entering the launch area just before the launch, leaving the launch area and returning to Russia. A tribunal would offer a legal and formal setting to present these and other facts, and the opportunity for Russia and the separatist to respond. The magazine article provides the opportunity to listen to the recorded intercepts, view the photo's and examine the evidence.
You can not complain about the messenger of the of the information, a magazine, and than refuse to have the data presented in a legal setting.
As far as Ron Paul's popularity, it appeared to be being presented as if his name and position in the US was relevant, which you have agreed it is not. Citizens in other counties are often tricked into believing comments and positions made by irrelevant Americans have some kind of meaning because they have no concept of who or what these people are or what they represent.
Finally, the statement that the perpetrators would or could be brought to justice without a UN resolution and tribunal is a bit disturbing. The world, and particularly the nations that had it's citizens murdered, no doubt would like to learn how that will be accomplished without the proposed UN tribunal. Perhaps there is an international investigative body that can hold an official investigation that can also hold guilty parties accountable that you know about that they don't.


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## Sonc

_There are also eye witnesses who saw the missile launch from separatist territory along with a photo of it's vapor trail._
Can we see this photo?


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## ESay

Tehon said:


> Your opinion highlights the absurdity of the UN resolution. If there was more evidence than what has been produced for magazine articles then the perpetrators would be brought to justice without the need for such theatrics. Thank you. Now, maybe Camp can also see this point and stop worrying about Ron Paul's popularity, especially since it is completely irrelevant.



You are welcome.
But you seem not to understand my opinion correctly, I am afraid. The UN resolution itself isn’t an absurdity; the absurdity is the voting system in the UN Security Council.


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## ESay

Sonc said:


> 1) Cui bono (/ kwiː boʊnoʊ /), literally "to whose benefit?"
> What is the benefit Russia? None. This is advantageous the United States to accuse Putin.
> Or you can tell in what benefit of Russia?



In this case it can be applied only partially. No one says that Russia or Russia-backed rebels did that on purpose.



Sonc said:


> 2) If Russia was hit by a plane, why we did not destroy the "black box"? Pro-Russian separatists were there first. The offender sends a a record of how committed a crime?



It is one of those extremely rare cases when I agree with a Russian ‘patriot’. It is very strange that the rebels, if we assume that they are guilty, began to cooperate with the investigators almost from the very beginning of the investigation.


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## Camp

Sonc said:


> _There are also eye witnesses who saw the missile launch from separatist territory along with a photo of it's vapor trail._
> Can we see this photo?


It is in the link I provided in post #3.


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## Stratford57

First, let’s ask a simple question: why any War Tribunal is even needed, especially before:
a) The communications between the pilots and the Ukrainian air traffic controllers are published. (In all other cases the communications have been published same or the next day after the crash.)
and
b) “Irrefutable evidence” of who has shot the Boeing, which Obama has been claiming to have, is presented.
Sounds, like somebody badly needs another show instead of clean investigation. So far all “the evidence” presented by West or Ukraine was nothing but political spin.

1.USA and Ukraine as well as some other countries have shot civilian planes before, but nobody even thought about having War tribunal about that.
-    Iran Air Flight 655 - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

-   Ukraine finally admitted that its military shot down *a Russian airliner that crashed into the Black Sea *last week, killing all 78 passengers and crew.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/1359353/Ukraine-admits-it-shot-down-Russian-airliner.htm

The Israelis suspect the authorities in Kiev of covering up evidence that the Tu-154, which crashed into the Black Sea, was struck by a stray surface-to-air missile fired during a military exercise. They privately accused Ukraine yesterday of deliberately preventing an air investigation team from leaving Israel within hours of the crash, despite earlier guarantees of full co-operation.
Israel accuses Ukraine of hiding missile strike that destroyed jet - Telegraph

2. HAGUE tribunal has already shown to the world how “just” a Tribunal could be.

3. The Russian Defense Ministry published satellite images and radar data, saying that evidence proved that Ukraine had both ground-based anti-aircraft batteries and military aircraft capable of firing an air-to-air missile deployed in the region on the day of the MH17 shoot-down

Malaysian Airlines plane crash Russian military unveil data on MH17 incident over Ukraine FULL - YouTube

Also see how Kiev was trying to “present the proof”
 Wrong time altered images Moscow slams Kiev s MH17 satellite data RT News

4. I hope sooner or later there will be a clean (keyword!) War Tribunal for  all those war crimes Kiev Junta has committed against Ukrainian civilians. Over 6 thousand (officially!) have been killed, that's where the War Tribunal is really needed.


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## Sonc

ESay said:


> It is very strange


Not only that.
in 2001 Ukraine shot down the Russian TU154
was used С 200

length                  TU154/777    49/74
charge weight     с200/BUK      220/60

TU 154 was not destroyed immediately.
And the 777 was.


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## ESay

Sonc said:


> Not only that.
> in 2001 Ukraine shot down the Russian TU154
> was used С 200
> 
> length TU154/777 49/74
> charge weight с200/BUK 220/60
> 
> TU 154 was not destroyed immediately.
> And the 777 was.



I am not an expert in missiles and planes. Are you?
But I seem to understand what you are trying to say. I think it is quite illogical to blow up a plane in the air using a bomb and then to try to convince everybody that the plane was shot down by a missile, falsifying evidence. Why wouldn’t use a missile for that then?


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## Tehon

Camp said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> Secondly. If he is talking about Ukraine ‘which is one of the suspects in the crime’ and ‘It must be unprecedented in criminal history to have one of the suspects draft a proposal like this’ then why he isn’t talking about Russia being also among suspects of the crime and that it is quite illogical to give it a right to vote on the tribunal. It is the same thing if a murder suspect would be given a right to reject the trial because it is according to their opinion is political show. Isn’t it unprecedented in criminal history?
> 
> 
> 
> Your opinion highlights the absurdity of the UN resolution. If there was more evidence than what has been produced for magazine articles then the perpetrators would be brought to justice without the need for such theatrics. Thank you. Now, maybe Camp can also see this point and stop worrying about Ron Paul's popularity, especially since it is completely irrelevant.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are attacking the messenger, the magazine, instead of the message. The magazine is just publishing data that has been found during investigations, including information that came out in the official preliminary report put out by the Dutch investigation. The cell phone intercepts and social media comments make it pretty clear that separatist and Russians were involved to many people. There are also eye witnesses who saw the missile launch from separatist territory along with a photo of it's vapor trail. The BUK was tracked with photo's in Russia, traveling into Ukraine, entering the launch area just before the launch, leaving the launch area and returning to Russia. A tribunal would offer a legal and formal setting to present these and other facts, and the opportunity for Russia and the separatist to respond. The magazine article provides the opportunity to listen to the recorded intercepts, view the photo's and examine the evidence.
> You can not complain about the messenger of the of the information, a magazine, and than refuse to have the data presented in a legal setting.
> As far as Ron Paul's popularity, it appeared to be being presented as if his name and position in the US was relevant, which you have agreed it is not. Citizens in other counties are often tricked into believing comments and positions made by irrelevant Americans have some kind of meaning because they have no concept of who or what these people are or what they represent.
> Finally, the statement that the perpetrators would or could be brought to justice without a UN resolution and tribunal is a bit disturbing. The world, and particularly the nations that had it's citizens murdered, no doubt would like to learn how that will be accomplished without the proposed UN tribunal. Perhaps there is an international investigative body that can hold an official investigation that can also hold guilty parties accountable that you know about that they don't.
Click to expand...

What's wrong with the International Criminal Court.   A tribunal is just the continuation of the same dog and pony show we are currently watching.


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## Tehon

ESay said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your opinion highlights the absurdity of the UN resolution. If there was more evidence than what has been produced for magazine articles then the perpetrators would be brought to justice without the need for such theatrics. Thank you. Now, maybe Camp can also see this point and stop worrying about Ron Paul's popularity, especially since it is completely irrelevant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are welcome.
> But you seem not to understand my opinion correctly, I am afraid. The UN resolution itself isn’t an absurdity; the absurdity is the voting system in the UN Security Council.
Click to expand...

Sorry but I was using your post to make a point to Camp, it seemed like something even he could understand. Apparently I was wrong. Anyway, yeah the UN resolution is absurd, there is no way it was going to pass, everyone knows this and it only serves to reinforce the opinions of people who's minds are already made up.


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## ESay

Tehon said:


> Anyway, yeah the UN resolution is absurd, there is no way it was going to pass, everyone knows this and it only serves to reinforce the opinions of people who's minds are already made up.



I think that this case (Russian veto on the resolution) will also serve more significant role in the future. It will be one of the justifications why the UN Security Council should be reformed and why the right of veto should be partially scrapped.
But I am not sure yet whether this partial scrapping is in the interest of the Western countries.


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## Camp

Tehon said:


> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your opinion highlights the absurdity of the UN resolution. If there was more evidence than what has been produced for magazine articles then the perpetrators would be brought to justice without the need for such theatrics. Thank you. Now, maybe Camp can also see this point and stop worrying about Ron Paul's popularity, especially since it is completely irrelevant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are welcome.
> But you seem not to understand my opinion correctly, I am afraid. The UN resolution itself isn’t an absurdity; the absurdity is the voting system in the UN Security Council.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sorry but I was using your post to make a point to Camp, it seemed like something even he could understand. Apparently I was wrong. Anyway, yeah the UN resolution is absurd, there is no way it was going to pass, everyone knows this and it only serves to reinforce the opinions of people who's minds are already made up.
Click to expand...

The resolution did pass. It was vetoed by Russia. 11 members of the 15 member council voted for the draft resolution. 3 members abstained from voting. Russia stood alone in blocking the resolution. Whether the voting system or construction of the Security Council is absurd or not is a matter of opinion. Russia stands alone in blocking the system by which the international community has suggested the MH-17 crash be further investigated.


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## Tehon

Camp said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your opinion highlights the absurdity of the UN resolution. If there was more evidence than what has been produced for magazine articles then the perpetrators would be brought to justice without the need for such theatrics. Thank you. Now, maybe Camp can also see this point and stop worrying about Ron Paul's popularity, especially since it is completely irrelevant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are welcome.
> But you seem not to understand my opinion correctly, I am afraid. The UN resolution itself isn’t an absurdity; the absurdity is the voting system in the UN Security Council.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sorry but I was using your post to make a point to Camp, it seemed like something even he could understand. Apparently I was wrong. Anyway, yeah the UN resolution is absurd, there is no way it was going to pass, everyone knows this and it only serves to reinforce the opinions of people who's minds are already made up.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The resolution did pass. It was vetoed by Russia. 11 members of the 15 member council voted for the draft resolution. 3 members abstained from voting. Russia stood alone in blocking the resolution. Whether the voting system or construction of the Security Council is absurd or not is a matter of opinion. Russia stands alone in blocking the system by which the international community has suggested the MH-17 crash be further investigated.
Click to expand...

United Nations Official Document resolution 2166 has already passed with the support of Russia. What is the point of this new resolution(charade) when 2166 has not yet to been fully complied with by the West and Ukraine. I believe there is still unresolved issues with tower communications in the possession of Ukraine and also satellite imagery in the possession of the US.
 You have no credibility on this issue.


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## Sonc

Camp said:


> Sonc said:
> 
> 
> 
> _There are also eye witnesses who saw the missile launch from separatist territory along with a photo of it's vapor trail._
> Can we see this photo?
> 
> 
> 
> It is in the link I provided in post #3.
Click to expand...

Another sky


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## Sonc

ESay said:


> It will be one of the justifications why the UN Security Council should be reformed


Carefully selected words.
There was one man offering too


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## Sonc

someone can explain this?


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## Sonc

input






output







Tataaam!


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## Sonc

*why no one has condemned the US government for what happened September 11?*


i live in Arlington and was less than 2miles from the Pentagon during 9/11. THAT WAS NOT AN AIRPLANE THAT HIT THE PENTAGON
...
just after crush , I dont see any debris 
....
and yes/ no airplane...it was a Tomahawk Missile.


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## Camp

Tehon said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your opinion highlights the absurdity of the UN resolution. If there was more evidence than what has been produced for magazine articles then the perpetrators would be brought to justice without the need for such theatrics. Thank you. Now, maybe Camp can also see this point and stop worrying about Ron Paul's popularity, especially since it is completely irrelevant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are welcome.
> But you seem not to understand my opinion correctly, I am afraid. The UN resolution itself isn’t an absurdity; the absurdity is the voting system in the UN Security Council.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sorry but I was using your post to make a point to Camp, it seemed like something even he could understand. Apparently I was wrong. Anyway, yeah the UN resolution is absurd, there is no way it was going to pass, everyone knows this and it only serves to reinforce the opinions of people who's minds are already made up.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The resolution did pass. It was vetoed by Russia. 11 members of the 15 member council voted for the draft resolution. 3 members abstained from voting. Russia stood alone in blocking the resolution. Whether the voting system or construction of the Security Council is absurd or not is a matter of opinion. Russia stands alone in blocking the system by which the international community has suggested the MH-17 crash be further investigated.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> United Nations Official Document resolution 2166 has already passed with the support of Russia. What is the point of this new resolution(charade) when 2166 has not yet to been fully complied with by the West and Ukraine. I believe there is still unresolved issues with tower communications in the possession of Ukraine and also satellite imagery in the possession of the US.
> You have no credibility on this issue.
Click to expand...

UN Resolution 2166 does not have the power to conduct public hearings and formal official testimonies. In addition, 2166 was long ago violated by Russian supported separatist by ignoring portions of the resolution that demanded access to the crash site and witnesses. Resolution 2166 was feel good resolution passed immediately after the incident that promised an investigation. The investigation has gone about as far as it can. The investigators and international community are the ones who are insisting it is now time to use the official status and powers of a UN Tribunal to compel witnesses to testify publicly in front of a tribunal with official powers.
Why do you believe there is an unresolved issue about about tower communications in possession of Ukraine? That is maybe a good reason for a tribunal. Let an official tribunal get to the bottom of that because it keeps coming up. There is no hidden communication. It is nothing more than a made up story. So, let is be aired in public and persons involved with possibly having knowledge of this communication testify and be questioned. And what do you know about satellite imagery that makes you believe there is imagery that has not already been provided by US? You think the US should have some kind of imagery from a satellite of BUK being launched and hitting aircraft? Maybe we should ask why Russia does not have this imagery.


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## Stratford57

Camp said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your opinion highlights the absurdity of the UN resolution. If there was more evidence than what has been produced for magazine articles then the perpetrators would be brought to justice without the need for such theatrics. Thank you. Now, maybe Camp can also see this point and stop worrying about Ron Paul's popularity, especially since it is completely irrelevant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are welcome.
> But you seem not to understand my opinion correctly, I am afraid. The UN resolution itself isn’t an absurdity; the absurdity is the voting system in the UN Security Council.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sorry but I was using your post to make a point to Camp, it seemed like something even he could understand. Apparently I was wrong. Anyway, yeah the UN resolution is absurd, there is no way it was going to pass, everyone knows this and it only serves to reinforce the opinions of people who's minds are already made up.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The resolution did pass. It was vetoed by Russia. 11 members of the 15 member council voted for the draft resolution. 3 members abstained from voting. Russia stood alone in blocking the resolution. Whether the voting system or construction of the Security Council is absurd or not is a matter of opinion. Russia stands alone in blocking the system by which the international community has suggested the MH-17 crash be further investigated.
Click to expand...


Camp, do you know the difference between the words “investigation” and ”tribunal”? Russia needs clean investigation more than anybody else, because it was blamed for the serious crime  without any evidence been presented.

Looks like the USA with the help of official Kiev are playing a dishonest game against Russia, hiding some cards up the sleeves [Ukrainian air traffic controller communication and US satellite pictures], and just want to distract the world’s attention from themselves. To me, if you want to play  a clean game, lay all your cards on the table!


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## Tehon

Camp said:


> UN Resolution 2166 does not have the power to conduct public hearings and formal official testimonies. In addition, 2166 was long ago violated by Russian supported separatist by ignoring portions of the resolution that demanded access to the crash site and witnesses. Resolution 2166 was feel good resolution passed immediately after the incident that promised an investigation. The investigation has gone about as far as it can. The investigators and international community are the ones who are insisting it is now time to use the official status and powers of a UN Tribunal to compel witnesses to testify publicly in front of a tribunal with official powers.
> Why do you believe there is an unresolved issue about about tower communications in possession of Ukraine? That is maybe a good reason for a tribunal. Let an official tribunal get to the bottom of that because it keeps coming up. There is no hidden communication. It is nothing more than a made up story. So, let is be aired in public and persons involved with possibly having knowledge of this communication testify and be questioned. And what do you know about satellite imagery that makes you believe there is imagery that has not already been provided by US? You think the US should have some kind of imagery from a satellite of BUK being launched and hitting aircraft? Maybe we should ask why Russia does not have this imagery.


UN 2166 calls for full and thorough investigations into the crash. There are two investigations ongoing. The Dutch Safety Board which is looking into the details of the crash and the Joint Investigative Team (JIT) which is looking into the criminality aspects of the crash. Neither investigation has reached it's conclusion.
 Russia has released satellite images purporting to show the movement of Ukrainian BUK missile batteries. They have also released radar images purporting to show jet fighters in the area of MH17 . Are either of these going to be addressed by the (JIT)? 

From the Russian perspective, what has transpired in the public arena thus far amounts to a witch hunt. There is no reason to think a tribunal would deviate from this. No nation on earth would willingly accept this, we know the hypocrites in Washington and Ukraine wouldn't. Russia's veto of the tribunal isn't an admission of guilt it is a symptom of mistrust.


----------



## Camp

Many ways to evade a formal setting for getting to the bottom of the MH 17 investigation are being presented. At present time the investigators complain they are not able to question witnesses and were limited in inspecting crash site and still limited and denied because of Russian backed separatist. What we have is confusion, speculation and propaganda from all sides. If Russia has an alternative way to conduct investigation it must convince other members of the Security Council to support such an idea and bring it up for a vote. It appears the only other option Russia has is to complain Russia is the victim and being bullied and picked on by the Security Council. Russia must provide a way to bring witnesses in front of a formal court of inquiry to testify. Otherwise the veto is just a way to prevent investigation from going forward and reaching a conclusion.
The strongest proof that separatist shot down MH 17 with a Russian supplied BUK are the intercepts and recordings of specific separatist and officials in Russia and social media postings immediately following the shoot down. Those individuals have got to be questioned under oath in public in a formal setting. Both the US, Ukraine, Russia and everyone else must be obligated by public formal request to provide their evidence for inspection and evaluation.


----------



## Stratford57

Camp said:


> Both the US, Ukraine, Russia and everyone else must be obligated by public formal request to provide their evidence for inspection and evaluation.



That should have been done a year ago. But even* after* a year there are no sings for that  to happen. And that's why "the investigation"  looks more like distracting attention from official Kiev and demonizing official Moscow. And it looks like certain people are trying to push their geopolitical interests, using the tragedy of 298 human lives and their families.


----------



## Camp

Stratford57 said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> Both the US, Ukraine, Russia and everyone else must be obligated by public formal request to provide their evidence for inspection and evaluation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That should have been done a year ago. But even* after* a year there are no sings for that  to happen. And that's why "the investigation"  looks more like distracting attention from official Kiev and demonizing official Moscow.
Click to expand...

An assumption was made that cooperation would be implemented. That has not really happened. One assumption was that Russia had the power to compel separatist to cooperate. They have not cooperated and Russia can not be blamed for causing the separatist to be uncooperative. One problem for Russia is that the guys on the other end of the phone intercepts were in Russia and in the Russian military of intelligence service. So why haven't investigators been permitted to question them? These questions can go back and forth endlessly. That is why a tribunal is needed. 
Russia would have a key and a major roll in naming members of tribunal and Ukraine would have to answer just like anyone else. Kiev would be under suspicion and "on trial" as much as separatist or Russia.


----------



## Tehon

So Camp wants tribunals set up to corroborate the validity of social media posts and to prosecute individuals based on them. If one was to presume the social media posts of Strelkov to be legit and an admission of guilt (I don't) then it would appear as though MH17 was not the actual target. If MH17 was not the target then it was an accident not a criminal act. Assuming the above is true, does anyone really believe that Washington wants to set this precedence on how to deal with civilian casualties on the battlefield?


----------



## ESay

Camp said:


> An assumption was made that cooperation would be implemented. That has not really happened. One assumption was that Russia had the power to compel separatist to cooperate. They have not cooperated



I don’t agree with you in this aspect, unfortunately. I think that the rebels have cooperated rather than the opposite. They handed over the black boxes to the Malaysians; they loaded the debris on the trucks and let them to be removed from the area; they haven’t prevented the investigators from working in the area, moreover I know that the investigators have come to the area several times during the last year (the last visit was in the early June, unless I am mistaken) and I haven’t read that they are complaining about the obstacles.

That is what confuses me the most in this case.


----------



## Camp

Tehon said:


> So Camp wants tribunals set up to corroborate the validity of social media posts and to prosecute individuals based on them. If one was to presume the social media posts of Strelkov to be legit and an admission of guilt (I don't) then it would appear as though MH17 was not the actual target. If MH17 was not the target then it was an accident not a criminal act. Assuming the above is true, does anyone really believe that Washington wants to set this precedence on how to deal with civilian casualties on the battlefield?


I did not say the Strelkov social media post were legit or proved anything. Strelkov deserves the right to explain or deny. Investigators need to ask him and other involved persons questions. The air traffic controllers in Ukraine need to be questioned in the same manner, as do commanders of Ukraine units in possession of BUK systems that were stationed anywhere near the area.


----------



## Sonc

"and Ukraine would have to answer just like anyone else."
Ok.

So what? How? They were condemned?
Or is not clear who inflicted airstrike?
Or was at least ATTEMPT ... to find the culprits?


----------



## Camp

Sonc said:


> "and Ukraine would have to answer just like anyone else."
> Ok.
> 
> So what? How? They were condemned?
> Or is not clear who inflicted airstrike?
> Or was at least ATTEMPT ... to find the culprits?


Your video has nothing to do with MH17 and it is pure propaganda to insinuate one side is more guilty than another side for atrocities, mistakes, collateral damage and other incidents common in any war. That video could have been caused by separatist or Ukraine government forces or Ukraine anti separatist forces. It could have been a mistake by any of them. This is what happens when people take up arms and start a violent revolution to separate and cause civil war. A war is started and this is what happens in war. Blame those who promote taking up arms to make change.


----------



## Sonc

This video - proof.
There are victims.
There are witnesses.
There is a video of attack.

There is everything you need for the court. (More than is the case with Boeing.)
But the court is not. Why is that?


----------



## Stratford57

Camp said:


> Sonc said:
> 
> 
> 
> "and Ukraine would have to answer just like anyone else."
> Ok.
> 
> So what? How? They were condemned?
> Or is not clear who inflicted airstrike?
> Or was at least ATTEMPT ... to find the culprits?
> 
> 
> 
> Your video has nothing to do with MH17 and it is pure propaganda to insinuate one side is more guilty than another side for atrocities, mistakes, collateral damage and other incidents common in any war. That video could have been caused by separatist or Ukraine government forces or Ukraine anti separatist forces. It could have been a mistake by any of them. This is what happens when people take up arms and start a violent revolution to separate and cause civil war. A war is started and this is what happens in war. Blame those who promote taking up arms to make change.
Click to expand...


Propaganda, when Ukrainian air crufts have torn civilians (women!) into pieces???? That's not just cynic, it's insane..  Only CNN has shown that ^ and all the other Western/Ukrainian media remained silent, same way the are silent about crimes of official Kiev in Donbass. That is a great reason for war Tribunal.

Camp,  "strong evidence" in your post N 3, which you are so proud of,  is the four-minute clip posted by the News.com.au, which was followed by a transcript from a longer 17-minute (!) video, which has not been released.  

In the clip a man's voice is heard, which is thought to be that of a rebel commander, who receives a number of phone calls apparently from other rebel fighters at different sites where the debris fell. The man is heard saying_“What? There’s another plane?”_and orders the men to_“establish a perimeter and keep civilians away”._

The four-minute clip posted by the News.com.au is followed by a transcript from a longer 17-minute video, which has not been released. News Corp Australia told RT that they "stand by the transcript, it was taken from the full video, which investigators now have."

The text cites a rebel commander as saying that_"the Sukhoi [fighter jet] brought down the plane and we brought down the Sukhoi."_

Later on, the man is quoted as saying that_"there’s two planes taken down,”_while a voice in the background says,_"the fighter jet brought down this one [MH17 Boeing], and our people brought down the fighter. They [the Ukrainians] decided to do it this way, to make it look like we have brought down the plane."_

According to the transcript, there were also between two and_"five parachute jumpers"_who landed at the nearby Grabove village. These included a pilot_“roaming about Rassypnoe"_[a nearby village] and a commander ordering his men go and get him immediately.

One of the rebels is also wondering who and why they [the Boeing] was given permission to fly over the warzone.

The four-minute clip shows rebels searching the debris for black boxes and finding one, as well as personal IDs of the passengers, which they then filmed on the camera.

 Was there a 2nd plane New footage shows MH17 crash site minutes after Boeing downing RT News


----------



## Camp

Sonc said:


> This video - proof.
> There are victims.
> There are witnesses.
> There is a video of attack.
> 
> There is everything you need for the court.
> But the court is not. Why is that?


You are arguing against a UN Tribunal in one case and complaining about not having a court in another. If no one will present case of war crimes to international court or UN who do you blame? Who represents separatist areas of Ukraine, what you call New Russia? Russia can supply bullets and BUKS, tanks and rifles, but can not provide diplomats and lawyers to make charges of war crimes? 
Maybe you can explain why obvious military installation surrounded by defensive rows of tires and building with flags and protected by uniformed soldiers was located in middle of populated area. What was in that park that may have been target of strike but not shown in video?


----------



## Stratford57

Camp, I'm posting this just for you:


----------



## Camp

Stratford57 said:


> Camp, I'm posting this just for you:
> 
> View attachment 46248


That is known as a deflection Stratford. Deflections are used when you can not answer questions and you want to evade admitting you are unable to answer. The person arguing against your ideas is not the target when that person is arguing a widely accepted viewpoint. It is not Camp that is putting down your concepts, it is the international global community. Russia has some support even from some who normally are critical of Russia. In the end however, Russia looks bad and loses the argument. It will have to deal with the consequences for many years into the future. In the end the case will probably be determined in the worst places possible, multiple civil courts in multiple countries.


----------



## Sonc

Camp said:


> You are arguing against a UN Tribunal in one case and complaining about not having a court in another.


I'm not complaining.
I point to the facts - fair trial does not exist.
I asked the question, but you did not answer. *Why no one wants to judge the perpetrators of the events in the video?*


> Russia looks bad


On US television =)))


> and loses the argument.


Arguments are needed for those who can think. But do not believe what is said by TV.


----------



## ESay

Sonc said:


> Why no one wants to judge the perpetrators of the events in the video?



Maybe you should ask your government about it?


----------



## Sonc

ESay said:


> Sonc said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why no one wants to judge the perpetrators of the events in the video?
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe you should ask your government about it?
Click to expand...

I honestly try to understand the logic of the Ukrainians. The part that accuses Putin. But where is the logic? This Ukrainian plane.


----------



## Camp

Sonc said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are arguing against a UN Tribunal in one case and complaining about not having a court in another.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not complaining.
> I point to the facts - fair trial does not exist.
> I asked the question, but you did not answer. *Why no one wants to judge the perpetrators of the events in the video?*
> 
> 
> 
> Russia looks bad
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> On US television =)))
> 
> 
> 
> and loses the argument.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Arguments are needed for those who can think. But do not believe what is said by TV.
Click to expand...

I answered your question. Someone of authority has to make a request of an investigation into a specific war crime. In the case you reference it is alleged by you that a Ukraine aircraft made a strike that killed and injured civilians. Evidence must be presented for investigation and some authority has to formally open an investigation. Some official group or authority most go to some official organization to make this request. That whole mess in eastern Ukraine should be investigated by a UN Tribunal or court for war crimes. Perhaps the ICC could do it. Maybe Russia could agree to MH 17 Tribunal with caveat that all crimes can be investigated. I think this will not happen because I think both sides have bad behavior to hide.


----------



## Sonc

> Maybe Russia could agree to MH 17 Tribunal with caveat that all crimes can be investigated.


With caveat?
That judges must be fair and impartial?

They must be such without a request.
If they are not so
1) is not competent
2) prejudiced
3) 1 and 2

someone can tell where the plane that crashed into the Pentagon?
Everyone can see - no aircraft.

But none as though does not see.
And he does not want to talk about it.

*Do you understand what that means?*
You can write  the obvious conclusion?


----------



## PK1

Stratford57 said:


> On July, 17 it will be exactly a year since the flight MH-17 has been intercepted by a rocket and the Malaysian Boeing with almost 300 people on its board crashed. And after a year we still have as much information about it as the first few days.
> 
> 1.  The communications between the pilots and the Ukrainian air traffic controllers have never been published. In all other cases the communications have been published same or the next day after the crash.
> 2.  “Irrefutable evidence” of who has shot the Boeing, which Obama has been claiming to have, has never been presented.
> 
> All above sounds like everybody, who has access to the true information about the reasons and the causers of the tragedy  [Obama and official Kiev] , are not interested for the truth to come out. Why? May be because it contradicts their geopolitical games?…
> 
> Obama is so arrogant to think that he is so great and all the world is so damn to believe his words automatically without any evidence.



---
I understand the evidence is presented in a "confidential" draft circulated among the investigating countries prior to the final report. 
 The draft report leaks point to its conclusion: MH17 was downed by a surface to air missile fired from a BUK system brought into east Ukraine from Russia and was most likely operated by a Russian crew.
The pic below (from Camp's source) shows a satellite view of this strike by the BUK's SA-11 missile:


----------



## Stratford57

Translation^: What is a Western Tribunal? It means:  to have a  trial on Serbs after NATO bombs a passenger train  in Serbia.

Too bad many people have forgotten that...


----------



## ESay

Sonc said:


> With caveat?
> That judges must be fair and impartial?
> 
> They must be such without a request.
> If they are not so
> 1) is not competent
> 2) prejudiced
> 3) 1 and 2
> 
> someone can tell where the plane that crashed into the Pentagon?
> Everyone can see - no aircraft.
> 
> But none as though does not see.
> And he does not want to talk about it.
> 
> *Do you understand what that means?*



What can’t you still understand?

What the hell does the plane near Pentagon have to do with what is going on in Eastern Ukraine now?

What is being told to you is that if Russia wants a fair trial in what is going on in Ukraine now, then let Russia send a request to the UN (or some other international organization) about creation of an international tribunal which will be set up in order to investigate all possible military crimes in Eastern Ukraine – crimes committed by Ukrainian army, volunteer battalions, and the rebels; the downing of MH17; possible involvement of Russia in all that mess and so on.

Such a request has been sent? No. Why? Ask your government about it.


----------



## Sonc

_Such a request has been sent? No._

*And what's that?*
_
_


----------



## Sonc

And what's that?
You can not love Yanukovych.
But you can not deny one important fact.

He never used the weapon. His car was shot. He did not give the order to fire on their own people!


----------



## ESay

Sonc said:


> And what's that?



Man, if that may be called ‘_a request to the UN (or some other international organization) about creation of an international tribunal which will be set up in order to investigate all possible military crimes in Eastern Ukraine – crimes committed by Ukrainian army, volunteer battalions, and the rebels; the downing of MH17; possible involvement of Russia in all that mess and so on_’ then I don’t know what to add to that.

I can only say that if you want to achieve something you need to act, sometimes act ‘aggressively’, rather than merely speak. Do something; come up with various resolutions; look for possible allies and so on. Your government is so proud about ‘special relationship’ with China, so proud about BRICS. Where is this relationship, where is China, where is BRICS?


----------



## Sonc

And what is your Petro Poroshenko promised? Sell a chocolate factory, if he becomes president.
He became president. Sold?=)))


----------



## ESay

Sonc said:


> And what's that?
> You can not love Yanukovych.
> But you can not deny one important fact.
> 
> He never used the weapon. His car was shot. He did not give the order to fire on their own people!





Sonc said:


> And what is your Petro Poroshenko promised? Sell a chocolate factory, if he becomes president.
> He became president. Sold?=)))



Man, if you want to talk about the theme, let’s talk about the theme. If you want to ‘jump down’ to something else, then there is no point of talking about.


----------



## Sonc

_Man, if that may be called _

He says.
It's really amazing. Why are we here?
Dying people 10s in the east and you say that the Kiev authorities restrained.

Yes Churkin did not ask for an investigation.
He is 1,000 times asked to stop these crimes.

These crimes ... passed with the consent of the UN!
What do you think we need to ask the UN?


----------



## Sonc

_Man, if you want to talk about the theme, let’s talk about the theme. If you want to ‘jump down’ to something else, then there is no point of talking about._

*Just say yes or no.*


----------



## Sonc

_*What the hell does the plane near Pentagon have to do with what is going on in Eastern Ukraine now?*_

This is a tactic of the US government.
1-Organize murder.
2-Blaming others.
3-Get profit.

For them it is not important to kill Americans or Ukrainians.


----------



## Tehon

Sonc said:


> For them it is not important to kill Americans or Ukrainians.


Or the Dutch.


----------



## ESay

Sonc said:


> He says.
> It's really amazing. Why are we here?
> Dying people 10s in the east and you say that the Kiev authorities restrained.


What?



Sonc said:


> These crimes ... passed with the consent of the UN!
> What do you think we need to ask the UN?



I don’t know. What are your suggestions?



Sonc said:


> Just say yes or no.



About Poroshenko? No, he hasn’t.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Sonc said:


> I guess we'll never know for sure who is to blame.
> But there are a few simple questions.
> 
> 1) Cui bono (/ kwiː boʊnoʊ /), literally "to whose benefit?"
> What is the benefit Russia? None. This is advantageous the United States to accuse Putin.
> Or you can tell in what benefit of Russia?
> 
> 2) If Russia was hit by a plane, why we did not destroy the "black box"? Pro-Russian separatists were there first. The offender sends a a record of how committed a crime?
> 
> 3) Where is this record? Why didn't anyone told what upon it written?



*What is the benefit Russia?
*
I'm sure the drunken Russian "separatists" were thinking about that when they fired the missile the Russians gave them.

When they bragged about shooting down a Ukrainian plane on social media (oops), they were thinking really deep thoughts about who benefits.

* If Russia was hit by a plane, why we did not destroy the "black box"?
*
You have to think who would benefit from destroying the black box, Russia?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Sonc said:


> Maybe Russia could agree to MH 17 Tribunal with caveat that all crimes can be investigated.
> 
> 
> 
> With caveat?
> That judges must be fair and impartial?
> 
> They must be such without a request.
> If they are not so
> 1) is not competent
> 2) prejudiced
> 3) 1 and 2
> 
> someone can tell where the plane that crashed into the Pentagon?
> Everyone can see - no aircraft.
> 
> But none as though does not see.
> And he does not want to talk about it.
> 
> *Do you understand what that means?*
> You can write  the obvious conclusion?
Click to expand...


*someone can tell where the plane that crashed into the Pentagon?
*
Where is the aluminum skinned airplane that crashed into the concrete building?
Were you stupid before you abused vodka, or only afterwards?


----------



## Camp

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Sonc said:
> 
> 
> 
> I guess we'll never know for sure who is to blame.
> But there are a few simple questions.
> 
> 1) Cui bono (/ kwiː boʊnoʊ /), literally "to whose benefit?"
> What is the benefit Russia? None. This is advantageous the United States to accuse Putin.
> Or you can tell in what benefit of Russia?
> 
> 2) If Russia was hit by a plane, why we did not destroy the "black box"? Pro-Russian separatists were there first. The offender sends a a record of how committed a crime?
> 
> 3) Where is this record? Why didn't anyone told what upon it written?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *What is the benefit Russia?
> *
> I'm sure the drunken Russian "separatists" were thinking about that when they fired the missile the Russians gave them.
> 
> When they bragged about shooting down a Ukrainian plane on social media (oops), they were thinking really deep thoughts about who benefits.
> 
> * If Russia was hit by a plane, why we did not destroy the "black box"?
> *
> You have to think who would benefit from destroying the black box, Russia?
Click to expand...

Yes, the separatist thought they were shooting down a Ukraine military cargo plane. That is what the intercepted cell phone recording indicate. That is why getting the participants of those conversations in front of a tribunal and testifying in a public forum is essential.


----------



## Sonc

Even in the case of the murder of one person .... the court did not accept such evidence.

You know personally separatist leaders? You know their voices?
Logically ... The recording can be evidence. But only if ... expertise will be held.

And further.
No one serious person will not publicly ... for the whole world to blame someone, if not confident in his evidence.
Otherwise, the reputation will suffer.

Using such evidence, the US government prove one thing - they are not professional.
It does not prove nothing more.


----------



## Sonc

I want to ask.
Please write your thoughts.
Do not copy propaganda.


----------



## Sonc

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Sonc said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe Russia could agree to MH 17 Tribunal with caveat that all crimes can be investigated.
> 
> 
> 
> With caveat?
> That judges must be fair and impartial?
> 
> They must be such without a request.
> If they are not so
> 1) is not competent
> 2) prejudiced
> 3) 1 and 2
> 
> someone can tell where the plane that crashed into the Pentagon?
> Everyone can see - no aircraft.
> 
> But none as though does not see.
> And he does not want to talk about it.
> 
> *Do you understand what that means?*
> You can write  the obvious conclusion?
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *someone can tell where the plane that crashed into the Pentagon?
> *
> Where is the aluminum skinned airplane that crashed into the concrete building?
> Were you stupid before you abused vodka, or only afterwards?
Click to expand...



Where traces of wings?







Check for damage. They are very small.
Why then collapsed tower?


----------



## Camp

Sonc said:


> Even in the case of the murder of one person .... the court did not accept such evidence.
> 
> You know personally separatist leaders? You know their voices?
> Logically ... The recording can be evidence. But only if ... expertise will be held.
> 
> And further.
> No one serious person will not publicly ... for the whole world to blame someone, if not confident in his evidence.
> Otherwise, the reputation will suffer.
> 
> Using such evidence, the US government prove one thing - they are not professional.
> It does not prove nothing more.


This is why tribunal is required. Public testimony means the whole world gets to hear these people talk. Experts for all sides can testify and world gets to decide which ones, if any, are credible. These people will be given a chance to tell their story. 

If their is no proof good enough to make a decision about who did this crime that is how it will end. Families of murder victims deserve to know everything was done to find the guilty people and bring them to justice. Excuses that Russia does not want to be treated unfairly or made to look bad is not a valid excuse to stop justice for families. Russian pride and ego is not as important as finding justice for 298 families. If Russia is prepared to block the tribunal being called for Russia must provide an alternative solution that is acceptable to all parties.  Protecting some separatist from facing justice by denying justice for all those 298 murder victims is not acceptable to the world and never will be. 
Separatist should not have looted those dead bodies and stolen luggage and belongings of dead people who they left rotting in the hot sun while they searched for personal property to steal. It gave them an identification and branded them as horrible and uncivilized people undeserving of respect. It will take decades for that brand to be washed away, if ever.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Sonc said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sonc said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe Russia could agree to MH 17 Tribunal with caveat that all crimes can be investigated.
> 
> 
> 
> With caveat?
> That judges must be fair and impartial?
> 
> They must be such without a request.
> If they are not so
> 1) is not competent
> 2) prejudiced
> 3) 1 and 2
> 
> someone can tell where the plane that crashed into the Pentagon?
> Everyone can see - no aircraft.
> 
> But none as though does not see.
> And he does not want to talk about it.
> 
> *Do you understand what that means?*
> You can write  the obvious conclusion?
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *someone can tell where the plane that crashed into the Pentagon?
> *
> Where is the aluminum skinned airplane that crashed into the concrete building?
> Were you stupid before you abused vodka, or only afterwards?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Where traces of wings?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Check for damage. They are very small.
> Why then collapsed tower?
Click to expand...


Wings are shredded, inside the structure.
Yes, the cross section of impact is smaller.
Different construction.
Any more stupid questions?


----------



## Stratford57

Toddsterpatriot said:


> I'm sure the drunken Russian "separatists" were thinking about that when they fired the missile the Russians gave them.



Hey patriot Toddster, you think Ukrainians drink less than Russians? If yes, then I'm the Queen of England. Russians and Ukrainians have been the same people for centuries (!) , so the bad habits have always been the same too. FYI, in almost all the videos about Ukrainian Army you'll hear the Russian language.

And below I'm presenting some (very little part of existing) information about drunkenness and looting, flourishing in the  Ukrainian army.  Enjoy! 

http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150419/1021105189.html
New York Times Retreating Ukrainian Soldiers Get Drunk Act Like Animals
Looting torture and big business Meduza. News reports interviews videos from Russia


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Stratford57 said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure the drunken Russian "separatists" were thinking about that when they fired the missile the Russians gave them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey patriot Toddster, you think Ukrainians drink less than Russians? If yes, then I'm the Queen of England. Russians and Ukrainians for centuries have been the same people, so the bad habits have always been the same too. FYI, in almost all the videos about Ukrainian Army you'll hear the Russian language.
> 
> And below I'm presenting some (very little part of existing) information about drunkenness and looting, flourishing in the  Ukrainian army.  Enjoy!
> 
> Drunk Ukrainian Soldier in Army Vehicle Runs Over Car Near Lugansk Video Sputnik International
> New York Times Retreating Ukrainian Soldiers Get Drunk Act Like Animals
> Looting torture and big business Meduza. News reports interviews videos from Russia
Click to expand...


Tell you what, drunk Ukrainian soldiers can stay on their side of the border, Russia can pull all her drunk soldiers back to Russia.
What do ya say, Vlad?


----------



## Sonc

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Wings are shredded, inside the structure.


It's impossible.
To get inside, they could only destroy the wall.
Wing just seems fragile. From an engineering standpoint, this force element.
When the cross-sectional area less - pressure / area more.
therefore wing cuts the concrete like a knife.
You can see this on the "Twins".


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Sonc said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wings are shredded, inside the structure.
> 
> 
> 
> It's impossible.
> To get inside, they could only destroy the wall.
> Wing just seems fragile. From an engineering standpoint, this force element.
> When the cross-sectional area less - pressure / area more.
> therefore wing cuts the concrete like a knife.
> You can see this on the "Twins".
Click to expand...


*It's impossible.*

Clearly, it isn't.
*
To get inside, they could only destroy the wall*

The wall was destroyed.

*therefore wing cuts the concrete like a knife.*

But it doesn't.

*You can see this on the "Twins".
*
The surface of the WTC was mostly glass.


----------



## Sonc

Toddsterpatriot said:


> The surface of the WTC was mostly glass.


... on a steel frame.
But steel is not easy, but high quality. alloyed.
Top steel covered with concrete. The same high quality.

The height of the pentagon 24 meters.
  twins - 415.

What wall stronger?


----------



## Sonc

These steel beams are cut like tin can
And the Pentagon is not even scratch facing materials?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Sonc said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> The surface of the WTC was mostly glass.
> 
> 
> 
> ... on a steel frame.
> But steel is not easy, but high quality. alloyed.
> Top steel covered with concrete. The same high quality.
> 
> The height of the pentagon 24 meters.
> twins - 415.
> 
> What wall stronger?
Click to expand...


The Pentagon, obviously.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Sonc said:


> These steel beams are cut like tin can
> And the Pentagon is not even scratch facing materials?



The top picture isn't the WTC.


----------



## Sonc

Military building. Damn strong =)


----------



## Sonc

Camp said:


> Experts for all sides can testify and world gets to decide which ones, if any, are credible. These people will be given a chance to tell their story.


What prevents conduct an investigation now?

-To the crash site were admitted all the experts.
-Black boxes have given.
-On the Internet there are 1,000 eyewitness accounts.
-And many experts lead their investigation.

What Russia can yet do to help?


----------



## Sonc

Camp said:


> Separatist should not have looted those dead bodies and stolen luggage and belongings of dead people who they left rotting in the hot sun while they searched for personal property to steal. It gave them an identification and branded them as horrible and uncivilized people undeserving of respect.


Was the judgment, and it has been proven?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Sonc said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> Experts for all sides can testify and world gets to decide which ones, if any, are credible. These people will be given a chance to tell their story.
> 
> 
> 
> What prevents conduct an investigation now?
> 
> -To the crash site were admitted all the experts.
> -Black boxes have given.
> -On the Internet there are 1,000 eyewitness accounts.
> -And many experts lead their investigation.
> 
> What Russia can yet do to help?
Click to expand...


Russia should admit what they did.
Turn over the culprits.


----------



## Stratford57

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Russia should admit what they did.
> Turn over the culprits.



If Obama really had ANY evidence proving that Russia did it, be sure it would be broadcast all over the world a year ago. Since it hasn't happened, it only means one of two:
- if there is NO evidence yet, then the presumption of innocence has to be held for both sides;
-  if Obama DID had evidence and hid it, then it means Ukrainians *did it*  and the USA are covering them because of their geopolitical interests about Ukraine.
See, Toddster, as you claim "math is hard" , but logical thinking always helps. Never hurts to try at least..


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Stratford57 said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Russia should admit what they did.
> Turn over the culprits.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If Obama really had ANY evidence proving that Russia did it, be sure it would be broadcast all over the world a year ago. Since it hasn't happened, it's only one of two:
> - if there is NO evidence yet, then the presumption of innocence has to be held for both sides;
> -  if Obama DID had evidence and hid it, then it means Ukrainians *did it*  and the USA are covering them because of their geopolitical interests about Ukraine.
> See, Toddster, as you claim "math is hard" , but logical thinking always helps. Never hurts to try at least..
Click to expand...


The "separatists" admitted they shot down the plane.
Putin should admit he gave them the missiles and he should turn them over.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Sonc said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> Separatist should not have looted those dead bodies and stolen luggage and belongings of dead people who they left rotting in the hot sun while they searched for personal property to steal. It gave them an identification and branded them as horrible and uncivilized people undeserving of respect.
> 
> 
> 
> Was the judgment, and it has been proven?
Click to expand...


Fuck you, Ivan.


----------



## Sonc

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Sonc said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> Separatist should not have looted those dead bodies and stolen luggage and belongings of dead people who they left rotting in the hot sun while they searched for personal property to steal. It gave them an identification and branded them as horrible and uncivilized people undeserving of respect.
> 
> 
> 
> Was the judgment, and it has been proven?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Fuck you, Ivan.
Click to expand...

Today you drink your Prozak?)))


----------



## Stratford57

Sonc, you must have really got our buddy Toddster since F-word remained his only argument (however his previous arguments were even weaker, ha-ha). Good job, Sonc.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Stratford57 said:


> Sonc, you must have really got our buddy Toddster since F-word remained his only argument (however his previous arguments were even weaker, ha-ha). Good job, Sonc.



Go post some more propaganda. Gotta make your quota.
That vodka ain't gonna buy itself, eh comrade?


----------



## PK1

Stratford57 said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Russia should admit what they did.
> Turn over the culprits.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If Obama really had ANY evidence proving that Russia did it, be sure it would be broadcast all over the world a year ago. Since it hasn't happened, it only means one of two:
> - if there is NO evidence yet, then the presumption of innocence has to be held for both sides;
> -  if Obama DID had evidence and hid it, then it means Ukrainians *did it*  and the USA are covering them because of their geopolitical interests about Ukraine.
> See, Toddster, as you claim "math is hard" , but logical thinking always helps. Never hurts to try at least..
Click to expand...


---
This should be in the final investigative report ...
The pic below shows a satellite view of this strike by the Russian BUK's SA-11 missile:


----------



## Sonc

Camp said:


> Public testimony means the whole world gets to hear these people talk.


*Public testimony...???*

The Ukrainian Veto: Why The MH17 Report Will Not Reveal The TruthOn November 26, 2014 it was revealed by the Dutch news outlet RTL Nieuws that there exists a confidentiality agreement that was signed by the Netherlands, Belgium, Australia and the Kiev regime in Ukraine that gives each of the signatories a veto on any information that comes out of the investigation. 


I wonderwhy? What do you think?


----------



## Stratford57

Camp said:


> Sonc said:
> 
> 
> 
> Even in the case of the murder of one person .... the court did not accept such evidence.
> Using such evidence, the US government prove one thing - they are not professional.
> It does not prove nothing more.
> 
> 
> 
> This is why tribunal is required. Public testimony means the whole world gets to hear these people talk. Experts for all sides can testify and world gets to decide which ones, if any, are credible. These people will be given a chance to tell their story.
Click to expand...







Translation ^: Should the UN have a Tribunal about Hiroshima and Nagasaki  to begin with? It looks like modern politicians have already forgotten about that tragedy...

BTW, 150 thousand people died!


----------



## Camp

Sonc said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> Public testimony means the whole world gets to hear these people talk.
> 
> 
> 
> *Public testimony...???*
> 
> The Ukrainian Veto: Why The MH17 Report Will Not Reveal The TruthOn November 26, 2014 it was revealed by the Dutch news outlet RTL Nieuws that there exists a confidentiality agreement that was signed by the Netherlands, Belgium, Australia and the Kiev regime in Ukraine that gives each of the signatories a veto on any information that comes out of the investigation.
> 
> 
> I wonderwhy? What do you think?
Click to expand...

I think it is a normal non disclosure agreement when multiple agencies or nations are investigating a crime. It means information will not be released in bits and pieces by individual entities and that everyone operates as one unit in regards to releasing information to the public. 
This is another good reason for the tribunal that was vetoed by Russia. This issue could be publicly addressed in a formal setting, the tribunal, if it were a real or suspected issue.


----------



## Sonc

Camp said:


> It means information will not be released in bits and pieces by individual entities and that everyone operates as one unit in regards to releasing information to the public.


No. This means that even if the records were words
- Oh god we attack two Ukrainian aircraft ...
Ukraine can say
- We do not allow to speak about it.
And no one in the world will never know what was on the record.

We do not even know if someone took it right to forbid.

But if today 5 years old child can in 5 minutes to upload 100 songs ... but we still do not know what was in the black boxes ... apparently someone took advantage of this right.


----------



## Camp

Sonc said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> It means information will not be released in bits and pieces by individual entities and that everyone operates as one unit in regards to releasing information to the public.
> 
> 
> 
> No. This means that even if the records were words
> - Oh god we attack two Ukrainian aircraft ...
> Ukraine can say
> - We do not allow to speak about it.
> And no one in the world will never know what was on the record.
> 
> We do not even know if someone took it right to forbid.
> 
> But if today 5 years old child can in 5 minutes to upload 100 songs ... but we still do not know what was in the black boxes ... apparently someone took advantage of this right.
Click to expand...

What you are saying is not true. In a tribunal setting the Russian or any other member or participant can demand any secret files be viewed or discussed. Plus, the agreement seems to only be in effect during the investigation phase.That agreement would be nullified once it transferred from the JIT to the UN Tribunal. The tribunal would have different member nations on it and not just the ones with the JIT. The JIT might be part of the prosecution, but the judges will be determined by the Security Council. The tribunal would have authority to see all files and would be under no obligation to some agreement made by the JIT members.


----------



## ESay

Here have been claims about the recordings of communications between the pilots and air traffic controllers. That they haven’t been released yet and that in other cases such recordings were published almost immediately after the crashes.

Does anybody know when the recordings were released after the 2010 Polish Air Force Tu-154 crash near Smolensk?


----------



## Sonc

ESay said:


> Here have been claims about the recordings of communications between the pilots and air traffic controllers. That they haven’t been released yet and that in other cases such recordings were published almost immediately after the crashes.
> 
> Does anybody know when the recordings were released after the 2010 Polish Air Force Tu-154 crash near Smolensk?


15 months. to my mind.
But the results were ready much earlier.
Polish military refused to acknowledge guilt, this had to spend more time it would have to prove the cause.


----------



## ESay

Sonc said:


> 15 months. to my mind.
> But the results were ready much earlier.
> Polish military refused to acknowledge guilt, this had to spend more time it would have to prove the cause.



If I understand correctly, 9 months or so. The recordings were published only after the final report was released.

In any case it is somewhat a little bit longer than “the same day or the next day”, isn’t it?


----------



## Stratford57

The Western move to create an international tribunal on the 2014 Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 crash in eastern Ukraine was a political instrument used to accuse the Russian government of war crimes, a prominent Canadian international criminal lawyer told Sputnik Wednesday.

"So they will use it [International tribunal on MH17] as a political tool to bash Russia and to try and make the Russian government look like war criminals," Christopher Black told Sputnik.

According to Black, Western countries are trying to blame the crash on eastern Ukrainian militia, which the West believes is armed by Moscow.

"And they also want to, of course, demonize and attack the republics of Donbass, Luhansk and Donetsk," Black stated.

The draft proposal to create a tribunal was put forward despite the ongoing official investigation into the aircraft crash, he added.

"And so, we now know that [the initiators of the tribunal are] pushing for this tribunal without any investigation being concluded, and right at the same time, they are withholding information which they refuse to deliver despite many demands by Russia and many other countries," Black emphasized.

Moscow has asserted it would continue to assist an impartial probe into the tragedy that killed 298 people, insisting upon waiting for the official findings of the Dutch Safety Board, charged with the inquiry into the crash, and the release of their final report.

MH17 Tribunal Designed to Paint Russia as War Criminals Sputnik International


----------



## Stratford57

I have a simple question: why all the West is blaming only Russia for MH-17 and NOBODY ever even thought to suspect Ukraine????????????????????????
It doesn't sound fair, does it?

MOSCOW, July 16 /TASS/. The idea to create a tribunal to investigate the MH17 crash is aimed at punishing those whom the United States considers to be guilty, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said on Thursday commenting remarks by US Ambassador to Russia John Tefft who said the United States allegedly knew who had shot the Malaysian Boeing down.

"I remember the ambassador’s interview in which he said in a very categorical manner that the United States knew for sure who had downed the plane and added that it was waiting for the end of investigation," Lavrov said adding the phrase sounded a bit contradictory given the confidence which the US certainly has.

"But if Washington really thinks like Tefft says, the idea of a tribunal becomes a bit clearer. If they know everything, and the United States has actively supported the idea of tribunal’s creation by a UN Security Council resolution, then perhaps it is easy to put two and two together and understand what goal it [the tribunal] will pursue," the Russian foreign minister stressed.

"It turns out that it should guarantee the punishment of those whom Washington considers to be guilty. Let me leave it to Mr. Tefft’s conscience," Lavrov said.
TASS Russia - MH17 crash tribunal creation aimed at punishing those whom US considers guilty Lavrov

In the telephone conversation with Dutch PM Mark Rutte, Putin detailed Russia’s position on the initiative of a range of countries, including the Netherlands, on establishing the international tribunal to persecute persons responsible for destroying the Malaysian airliner.

Putin said this proposal is "early and counterproductive," the Kremlin press service said.

"The focus was made that to adopt a decision on judicial mechanisms and to bring those guilty in this crime to justice, an active work is needed to complete the international investigation that should be thorough and objective and have an independent and comprehensive character," the statement said.

This should be in full compliance with the provisions of Resolution 2166 of the UN Security Council adopted on July 21, 2014 upon Russia’s initiative, the press service stressed.

The Kremlin press service also said that politicized smear campaigns in the media regarding the causes of the crash were inadmissible.
TASS World - Putin says tribunal on MH17 crash early and counterproductive 

MOSCOW, July 15 /TASS/. The Russian Investigation Committee is inclined to believe that an air-to air missile, which was not made in Russia, shot down a Malaysian Boeing (MH17 flight) over Ukraine a year ago.
TASS World - Investigators MH17 shot down over Ukraine by air-to-air missile not made in Russia

THE HAGUE, July 13. /TASS/. The idea of establishing an international tribunal on the crash of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 in eastern Ukraine almost a year ago is at least strange, a Dutch journalist and the author of a book on the tragedy, Joost Niemoller said on Monday.

"It is also very weird. Because you have a situation when the public prosecution is setting up an investigation and now we hear that they still don’t know for which judge they are going to bring it. So what kind of an investigation is that?" Niemoller said.
TASS World - Dutch expert says idea of setting up MH17 tribunal is weird


----------



## ESay

Can anybody explain me what Russian “patriots” want? A couple of times they have been told that if Russia considers that the investigation is biased and the idea of a tribunal is weird, then Russia can take some actions in order to change the things – Russia can organise an international investigation team, all those prominent lawyers and others who support Russia’s position can fill lawsuits in international courts, Russian diplomats can look for allies in the UN in order to adopt some resolutions concerning Russia’s position and so on and so forth.

But again and again the same statements, accusations, complaints about the hypocritical West and at the same time almost no deeds from official Moscow.

What do they want? What are we supposed to do reading all of that?


----------



## Tehon

You don't understand what they want because you have taken up the West's cause and can't entertain any other thought process. Fairness..... that is the answer to your question. The West had implicated Russia and the Eastern Ukrainians in the tragedy within hours of the event and to this day not one shred of credible evidence has been provided to substantiate the claims. People just want an objective investigation into the crash and despite what you may believe a tribunal does not promise one.


----------



## ESay

Tehon said:


> You don't understand what they want because you have taken up the West's cause and can't entertain any other thought process. Fairness..... that is the answer to your question. The West had implicated Russia and the Eastern Ukrainians in the tragedy within hours of the event and to this day not one shred of credible evidence has been provided to substantiate the claims. People just want an objective investigation into the crash and despite what you may believe a tribunal does not promise one.



Thanks for the answer.

Maybe I failed to convey my thoughts properly in the previous post, so I will try to do it again.

It may well be that Russia is completely right about the case, it may well be that the West is lying about the tragedy. But what is unclear for me is why Russia has done virtually nothing in order to support its point of view. Yes, there have been plenty of statements, interviews with a wide range of people who support Russia’s stance. But in my opinion it is not enough, it is – I don’t know even how to call that – a childish level or so. Where are actions? Who forbids Russia to organise a Russia-led investigation team, who forbids Russia to prepare various resolutions about all of that and try to get support from other countries in the UN, for example?

You are claiming that there has been no evidence in support of the West’s stance, that their accusations are absolutely groundless. Okay, let’s consider that it is the case. But do you have any doubts what will be in the final report, and who the investigators will point a finger at? I have only a few doubts about that. And after the final report is released, the West will say “Look! We have known that from the very beginning! And the investigation team has proved that we have been completely right!” But what will Russia do after that. There will be again the same statements and interviews and the like? It is ridiculous.

I will ask again: Who forbids Russia to organise a Russia-led international investigation team? You may say that Russia is waiting the final report, because it is law-abiding country and other stuff. But it is bullshit, man, I am sorry. Russia didn’t wait the report when its General Staff was releasing its version with Su-25, it didn’t wait when Russian propagandists were (and still are) blaming Ukrainian army in the shooting. Besides the version with Su-25 there is also a version from Almaz-Antei. Russia has already received a draft version of the report. So, there are plenty of materials for a possible investigation team. Do something, guys. Take some actions. But what do we see again and again – statements, interviews and so on.


----------



## Tehon

ESay said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> You don't understand what they want because you have taken up the West's cause and can't entertain any other thought process. Fairness..... that is the answer to your question. The West had implicated Russia and the Eastern Ukrainians in the tragedy within hours of the event and to this day not one shred of credible evidence has been provided to substantiate the claims. People just want an objective investigation into the crash and despite what you may believe a tribunal does not promise one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the answer.
> 
> Maybe I failed to convey my thoughts properly in the previous post, so I will try to do it again.
> 
> It may well be that Russia is completely right about the case, it may well be that the West is lying about the tragedy. But what is unclear for me is why Russia has done virtually nothing in order to support its point of view. Yes, there have been plenty of statements, interviews with a wide range of people who support Russia’s stance. But in my opinion it is not enough, it is – I don’t know even how to call that – a childish level or so. Where are actions? Who forbids Russia to organise a Russia-led investigation team, who forbids Russia to prepare various resolutions about all of that and try to get support from other countries in the UN, for example?
> 
> You are claiming that there has been no evidence in support of the West’s stance, that their accusations are absolutely groundless. Okay, let’s consider that it is the case. But do you have any doubts what will be in the final report, and who the investigators will point a finger at? I have only a few doubts about that. And after the final report is released, the West will say “Look! We have known that from the very beginning! And the investigation team has proved that we have been completely right!” But what will Russia do after that. There will be again the same statements and interviews and the like? It is ridiculous.
> 
> I will ask again: Who forbids Russia to organise a Russia-led international investigation team? You may say that Russia is waiting the final report, because it is law-abiding country and other stuff. But it is bullshit, man, I am sorry. Russia didn’t wait the report when its General Staff was releasing its version with Su-25, it didn’t wait when Russian propagandists were (and still are) blaming Ukrainian army in the shooting. Besides the version with Su-25 there is also a version from Almaz-Antei. Russia has already received a draft version of the report. So, there are plenty of materials for a possible investigation team. Do something, guys. Take some actions. But what do we see again and again – statements, interviews and so on.
Click to expand...

I gave you my opinion. I knew it wouldn't satisfy you because you are out to prove a point but my opinion doesn't change. When the final reports are released we can judge by what weight of evidence they try to accuse Russia. The burden of proving guilt is upon the West, Russia owes you nothing. 
You should realize by now that those people on that plane died either as a result of an accident or a propaganda stunt. The value of the propaganda seems to be endless for one side.


----------



## Camp

Tehon said:


> You don't understand what they want because you have taken up the West's cause and can't entertain any other thought process. Fairness..... that is the answer to your question. The West had implicated Russia and the Eastern Ukrainians in the tragedy within hours of the event and to this day not one shred of credible evidence has been provided to substantiate the claims. People just want an objective investigation into the crash and despite what you may believe a tribunal does not promise one.


Credible evidence has been available since the very beginning. Those cell phone intercepts are evidence. And intercepts are credible when they can be backed up. The fact that Russia nor the separatist will not allow those participants to testify is further evidence of a conspiracy to hide the truth. 
Photo's of missile being tracked and traced is also evidence. Photographers not being able to travel to locations to duplicate photo for proof of locations is also effort to hide truth.
Separatist refusal to allow international inspectors/investigators and crash experts immediate access to crash site is also evidence of cover-up. 
To say not one shred of evidence exist is not accurate. Some may even say that is a lie. Normally investigators collect evidence, but the evidence is not declared or certified as accurate or true by the investigators. That determination is made by a formal court or tribunal. Without a tribunal ruling on the validity of evidence presented the guilty parties can always proclaim their is "no proof" or "not a shred of evidence".


----------



## ESay

Tehon said:


> I knew it wouldn't satisfy you because* you are out to prove a point* but my opinion doesn't change.



I am not sure that I have understood this properly, but I am not trying to prove you anything. You can believe in everything you want.
What I try to understand is what Russian “patriots” want to achieve by posting all of that at the same time when the Russian state is doing virtually nothing in order to support its stance.



Tehon said:


> Russia owes you nothing.



It is a very strange statement. Isn’t it the Russian General Staff that accused Ukrainian army in the downing after a week after the crash?


----------



## Tehon

ESay said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> I knew it wouldn't satisfy you because* you are out to prove a point* but my opinion doesn't change.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am not sure that I have understood this properly, but I am not trying to prove you anything. You can believe in everything you want.
> What I try to understand is what Russian “patriots” want to achieve by posting all of that at the same time when the Russian state is doing virtually nothing in order to support its stance.
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Russia owes you nothing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It is a very strange statement. Isn’t it the Russian General Staff that accused Ukrainian army in the downing after a week after the crash?
Click to expand...

You think Russia should have to prove it's innocence. That's bullshit, they have yet to be proven guilty. Russia is allowing the investigations to run their course. It seems only logical. The preliminary report was released so that the countries involved could make recommendations before the final report was released. We still await that final report on the cause of the crash. Then we have to wait till the end of the year for the release of the report on responsibility for the crash. Russia has maintained that they want to work with the international community on the investigation, not sure why you think they should switch course now and work independent of the international community.
 Russians are not wrong to question the objectivity of the West and it's media during the course of said investigations. There is a bias.


----------



## ESay

Tehon said:


> You think Russia should have to prove it's innocence. That's bullshit, they have yet to be proven guilty.



I have a question – What do you think about accusations related to a Ukrainian Su-25?



Tehon said:


> The preliminary report was released so that the countries involved could make recommendations before the final report was released.



Not only a preliminary report, but a draft version of the final report has been sent to a number of countries, including Russia. So, Russian officials (top-level ones, at least) are already aware what will be in the final report, and considering their statements it is not those things which they have wanted to see there.




Tehon said:


> We still await that final report on the cause of the crash. Then we have to wait till the end of the year for the release of the report on responsibility for the crash.



I asked it a couple of posts above and I will ask it now.
Let’s imagine that the investigators will point the finger at Russia. What should Russia do next?



Tehon said:


> Russia has maintained that they want to work with the international community on the investigation, not sure why you think they should switch course now and work independent of the international community.



Do you understand Russian? I can try to find a link on the article where Churkin claims that the Dutch-led team is virtually hindering Russian investigators from participating in the investigation. He also said that the investigation has been conducted virtually without Russian specialists. Also, there were claims from Russian officials that the investigation is biased.
Considering this, I think it is quite illogical that Russia is trying to stick to the Dutch-led investigations.



Tehon said:


> Russians are not wrong to question the objectivity of the West and it's media during the course of said investigations. There is a bias.



It is not wrong that they are questioning the objectivity of the West. But what about their own objectivity and accusations? Isn’t it a bias?


----------



## Tehon

ESay said:


> I have a question – What do you think about accusations related to a Ukrainian Su-25?


I don't know, I am not trained to understand radar or jet fighter capabilities. Why would my opinion be relevant?  Russia submitted radar purporting to show the existence of fighter jets in the area of MH17. Has this been addressed officially?



ESay said:


> Not only a preliminary report, but a draft version of the final report has been sent to a number of countries, including Russia. So, Russian officials (top-level ones, at least) are already aware what will be in the final report, and considering their statements it is not those things which they have wanted to see there.


Yes, the draft report was handed out and each participating country had 60 days to make final arguments or recommendations. We still await the final report.



ESay said:


> I asked it a couple of posts above and I will ask it now.
> Let’s imagine that the investigators will point the finger at Russia. What should Russia do next?


And I thought I addressed your question. I have no doubt the reports will point a finger in the direction of Russia. Russia's next step should depend on the weight of the evidence used to make the accusations.



ESay said:


> Do you understand Russian? I can try to find a link on the article where Churkin claims that the Dutch-led team is virtually hindering Russian investigators from participating in the investigation. He also said that the investigation has been conducted virtually without Russian specialists. Also, there were claims from Russian officials that the investigation is biased.
> Considering this, I think it is quite illogical that Russia is trying to stick to the Dutch-led investigations.


No, I do not understand Russian but you can post the article anyway, google often translates them for me.
Churkin's  claims, do they have merit?
And I find it illogical to conclude that Russia has a choice not to stick to Dutch-led investigations. If Russia acted outside of these investigations, that in itself would be used against them, unless they were able to present indisputable evidence. The reality of the situation is that there probably is no way to positively verify who shot down MH17, a plane that was flying over an active combat zone. Don't be surprised if nothing comes of these investigations, public perceptions aside. It's a propaganda war, the West being the obvious winner.



ESay said:


> It is not wrong that they are questioning the objectivity of the West. But what about their own objectivity and accusations? Isn’t it a bias?


Of course they are biased but then again they are not representatives of governments or journalists. I wouldn't presume the general public to be unbiased. Journalists on the other hand should be more objective and government representatives should be more constrained in their accusations unless they are willing to present indisputable evidence.
That being said, our Russian friend's complaints about a lack of Western objectivity has merit, don't you think?


----------



## ESay

Tehon said:


> Has this been addressed officially?



Can an official press-conference of representatives of Russian General Staff be called ‘this has been addressed officially’?



Tehon said:


> No, I do not understand Russian but you can post the article anyway, google often translates them for me.
> Churkin's claims, do they have merit?



In my opinion a pile of shit has more merit than Churkin’s claims. But he is a top level Russian diplomat and he expresses Russia’s official position.
Here is a link. It is very small article, but it gives proof of what I wrote above.
 - - 



Tehon said:


> And I find it illogical to conclude that Russia has a choice not to stick to Dutch-led investigations. If Russia acted outside of these investigations, that in itself would be used against them, unless they were able to present indisputable evidence.



I don’t understand why it may be so. If Russia claims that the investigation is biased, is conducted without taking into consideration Russia’s opinion, then I don’t understand what a reason is for Russia to go on taking part in such an investigation.

I am not talking about that Russia should have started an investigation without international participation. On the contrary - it should have gathered as many participants as it could. Russia thinks that the West is hiding culprits? Okay, organise an international team with, for example, official representatives of the BRICS countries or so.

Unfortunately, you don’t understand Russian. I have found a video of Russian state-controlled channel Rossiya 1. In these video journalists accuse the Dutch that they had done virtually nothing in order to investigate the case. That the West was virtually hiding the culprits – of course, on the journalists’ opinion the culprit is Ukraine. Look at the date the video was posted and you will see that after two months after the downing the Russians accused the West in all they are accusing now. And all this year the Russians have been doing nothing and waiting a biased report (in their opinion)? I am sorry I don’t see any logic in that at all.

Here is a link on the video
 777 - 



Tehon said:


> That being said, our Russian friend's complaints about a lack of Western objectivity has merit, don't you think?



What I can say about it is that there are two completely different points of view about the tragedy. And while the one side is slowly but firmly preparing ground for their claims, the other one is just waiting and continually complaining. Is that an answer to your question?


P.S.
*Camp*, you were right. The investigators were unable to reach the crash site in the course of two months after the crash. And even a preliminary report was released without the examination of the crash site. I have completely forgotten about it. The video I posted above says about it, so even Russian propaganda may be useful sometimes.) But it is quite understandable that the propagandists claim that it was Ukraine that was putting obstacles.


----------



## Tehon

ESay said:


> Can an official press-conference of representatives of Russian General Staff be called ‘this has been addressed officially’?


Why not, you called it such.
 Is there any reason to believe that the radar and satellite images were not transferred to the investigators?



ESay said:


> In my opinion a pile of shit has more merit than Churkin’s claims. But he is a top level Russian diplomat and he expresses Russia’s official position.


Is that your unbiased opinion?



ESay said:


> I don’t understand why it may be so. If Russia claims that the investigation is biased, is conducted without taking into consideration Russia’s opinion, then I don’t understand what a reason is for Russia to go on taking part in such an investigation.
> 
> I am not talking about that Russia should have started an investigation without international participation. On the contrary - it should have gathered as many participants as it could. Russia thinks that the West is hiding culprits? Okay, organise an international team with, for example, official representatives of the BRICS countries or so.


Yeah and Russia should have gathered the black boxes and all the debris and plane pieces also. Or do you think the West will give Russia unrestricted access to these things for their personal investigation.



ESay said:


> What I can say about it is that there are two completely different points of view about the tragedy. And while the one side is slowly but firmly preparing ground for their claims, the other one is just waiting and continually complaining. Is that an answer to your question?


It is a public opinion war and it remains to be seen how solid the ground will be that the West is preparing.


----------



## Sonc

ESay said:


> And all this year the Russians have been doing nothing and waiting a biased report (in their opinion)? I am sorry I don’t see any logic in that at all.


Why  nothing?
12 33

Investigation of Almaz-Antei.


----------



## Sonc

39:10
40:57
43 45
44 35

1:20 - Алмаз Антей подали в суд- 

This means that Antey legally responsible for the accuracy of the investigation.


antey is the company that created the BUK.
1:16 interesting question - why in the time of the tragedy were active Ukrainian radars, if the separatists do not have military aviation.


----------



## ESay

Tehon said:


> Why not, you called it such.
> Is there any reason to believe that the radar and satellite images were not transferred to the investigators?



You mean the radar and satellite images related to the Su-25? I don’t know. It may well be that all that has been transferred to investigators.



Tehon said:


> Is that your unbiased opinion?



You think it is too biased? )
After the fairy tale about a “crucified” boy in Slavyansk broadcast by state-controlled Channel One, I can believe neither Russian official journalists nor Russian officials.



Tehon said:


> Yeah and Russia should have gathered the black boxes and all the debris and plane pieces also. Or do you think the West will give Russia unrestricted access to these things for their personal investigation.



No, it shouldn’t.

Okay, let’s imagine a situation. I sincerely hope that will never be the case, but let’s imagine that you are accused for some crime you haven’t committed. You are completely aware from the very beginning that the investigation is biased and that the investigators will put a finger at you. What would you do in such a case?




Tehon said:


> it remains to be seen how solid the ground will be that the West is preparing.



I agree with you about this.


----------



## ESay

Sonc said:


> Why nothing?



Is it a rhetorical question? If it is not, then you had better read again what I have written in this thread. By the way, in some post I mentioned about Almaz-Antei. It may well be that you disagree with me, but I am not going to write the same once more.



Sonc said:


> interesting question - why in the time of the tragedy were active Ukrainian radars, if the separatists do not have military aviation.



I have a question. Does Russia have active radars on its territory? And if it has them, which regions they are situated in?


----------



## Sonc

ESay said:


> Is it a rhetorical question?


No. I brought proof that Russia has made the most of an open investigation.



ESay said:


> What would you do in such a case?


Say you are.


----------



## Sonc

ESay said:


> I have a question. Does Russia have active radars on its territory? And if it has them, which regions they are situated in?



This military radars. When such a radar starts it becomes very vulnerable. because it is known of his whereabouts.

It can be destroyed by artillery, mortars, and MB21.

Military radar is like a fuse on the rifle. It included only when they want to shoot. Otherwise, it will just be destroyed before the shot. =)


----------



## ESay

Sonc said:


> No. I brought proof that Russia has made the most of an open investigation.



Yeah. So it remains to find out which of Russia’s versions – Almaz-Antei’s or the General Staff’s – is true.



Sonc said:


> Say you are.



I am sorry, man, I addressed the question to another person. I will wait an answer.




Sonc said:


> This military radars. When such a radar starts it becomes very vulnerable. because it is known of his whereabouts.
> 
> It can be destroyed by artillery, mortars, and MB21.
> 
> Military radar is like a fuse on the rifle. It included only when they want to shoot. Otherwise, it will just be destroyed before the shot. =)



If understand correctly your chart, Russia has several active radars on its territory (btw, the chart gives information only about RLS Kupol, so it may well be that a total number of active radars is higher).

Why does Russia use them? There are regions in Russia where rebels are using air forces?


----------



## Tehon

ESay said:


> Okay, let’s imagine a situation. I sincerely hope that will never be the case, but let’s imagine that you are accused for some crime you haven’t committed. You are completely aware from the very beginning that the investigation is biased and that the investigators will put a finger at you. What would you do in such a case?


I would try to prove my innocence, duh. But if there is not enough evidence to prove my innocence and I am being railroaded by the prosecution then I am probably going to jail, as many innocent people do. All Russia stands to lose though is public opinion polls.
http://www.pewglobal.org/files/2015...r-Russia-Image-Report-FINAL-August-5-2015.pdf
They are already paying economically and haven't been proven guilty of anything.


----------



## ESay

Tehon said:


> I would try to prove my innocence, duh.



I apologise for my importunity, but I want to ask one more question for clarifying – Would you try to take actions as soon as you became aware of that or you would wait until the police has released its false report and a biased trial begins?



Tehon said:


> They are already paying economically and haven't been proven guilty of anything.



Have you heard something about Crimea?


----------



## Tehon

ESay said:


> I apologise for my importunity, but I want to ask one more question for clarifying – Would you try to take actions as soon as you became aware of that or you would wait until the police has released its false report and a biased trial begins?


This line of questioning is going nowhere, of course anyone would attempt to clear their name, Putin is no exception. A lack of indisputable evidence to prove your innocence however does not imply a lack of effort. Sonc has already highlighted one such effort for you. This sort of information provided by Sonc doesn't make it to Western media obviously but you must be privileged with access to it so why feign ignorance on this matter.


ESay said:


> Have you heard something about Crimea?


Yes Russia was already under sanction but the US was pressuring the EU to increase sanctions. MH17 provided the US an opportunity to increase that pressure, to which the EU relented .
Google

Pretend all you want that the actions taken by the West since MH17 was shot down have been impartial. I for one don't impugn Russia's efforts to call attention to this impartiality and I think this impartiality is evidence that bears weight on the West not Russia. Nor does Russia's attempts to call attention to the impartiality of the proceedings detract from their effort to clear their name. Now bend over, Obama is not finished with you yet, stooge.
BTW, congratulations on your use of the English language, you seem very skilled at it.


----------



## ESay

Tehon said:


> This line of questioning is going nowhere, of course anyone would attempt to clear their name, Putin is no exception. A lack of indisputable evidence to prove your innocence however does not imply a lack of effort. Sonc has already highlighted one such effort for you. This sort of information provided by Sonc doesn't make it to Western media obviously but you must be privileged with access to it so why feign ignorance on this matter.



Yes, our discussion is pointless.

Unfortunately, I am not an expert in aviation, and therefore I can’t draw reliable conclusions from the Almaz-Antei’s press-conference.

At the end of our conversation I can say that if at first you have one version of an event and are providing a string of evidence in order to support it, but after a while it becomes known that at least majority of the evidence is false, and after all of that you come up with another version – then it casts shadow on both of them, to put it mildly. And who except of the accused can support this evidence? No one.




Tehon said:


> Now bend over, Obama is not finished with you yet, stooge.



Neither is Putin with you. You should be ready to be used once again. Such an opportunity will soon present itself, no doubts about it.




Tehon said:


> BTW, congratulations on your use of the English language, you seem very skilled at it.



Thanks for the congratulations. But I am sure you are exaggerating.


----------



## ESay

_*Investigation into possible Buk-missile-parts*
 In cooperation with the Dutch Safety Board (DSB) the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) investigates several parts, possibly originating from a Buk surface-air-missilesystem. These parts have been secured during a previous recovery-mission in Eastern-Ukraine and are in possession of the criminal investigation team MH17 and the Dutch Safety Board.

The parts are of particular interest to the criminal investigation as they can possibly provide more information about who was involved in  the crash of MH17. For that reason the JIT further investigates the origin of these parts. The JIT will internationally enlist the help of experts, among others forensic specialists and weapon-experts.  

At present the conclusion cannot be drawn that there is a causal connection between the discovered parts and the crash of flight MH17.

The JIT conducts the criminal investigation and the DSB the investigation into the cause of the crash. Both investigations are conducted separately but JIT and DSB occasionally share material. In its final report the Dutch Safety Board will report on the discovered parts.

Dutch Safety Board Investigations Publication Investigation crash MH17 17 July 2014_


----------



## Sonc

ESay said:


> Unfortunately, I am not an expert in aviation, and therefore I can’t draw reliable conclusions from the Almaz-Antei’s press-conference.


Yes it is difficult. A lot of numbers and formulas.
This picture is better ... piu-piu....vjjjjj....BOOM=))
Putin shot down the plane





_

_


----------



## Sonc

Democracy in Ukrainian


----------



## ESay

Sonc said:


> Yes it is difficult. A lot of numbers and formulas.



Man, please, don’t pretend that you have understood much in all those formulas.



Sonc said:


> This picture is better ... piu-piu....vjjjjj....BOOM=))



You had better ask your General Staff about some pictures. They are professionals in it.




Sonc said:


> Democracy in Ukrainian



Damn it. You Russian “patriots” are either crazy or completely stupid. The video has been shot in Minsk (read the title). Considering that the guard remained in the building when the Ukrainian delegation came out, it may well be assumed that he is from Belorussian security service.

You are posting stupid lie here and there and after that you are claiming that Western propaganda is guilty of the bad image of Russia. Idiots.


----------



## Sonc

ESay said:


> Damn it. You Russian “patriots” ...
> You are posting stupid lie here .... Idiots.


Well let's see.
Comment please =))


----------



## ESay

Sonc said:


> Comment please =))



What does it have to do with MH17?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot

Stratford57 said:


> I have a simple question: why all the West is blaming only Russia for MH-17 and NOBODY ever even thought to suspect Ukraine????????????????????????
> It doesn't sound fair, does it?
> 
> MOSCOW, July 16 /TASS/. The idea to create a tribunal to investigate the MH17 crash is aimed at punishing those whom the United States considers to be guilty, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said on Thursday commenting remarks by US Ambassador to Russia John Tefft who said the United States allegedly knew who had shot the Malaysian Boeing down.
> 
> "I remember the ambassador’s interview in which he said in a very categorical manner that the United States knew for sure who had downed the plane and added that it was waiting for the end of investigation," Lavrov said adding the phrase sounded a bit contradictory given the confidence which the US certainly has.
> 
> "But if Washington really thinks like Tefft says, the idea of a tribunal becomes a bit clearer. If they know everything, and the United States has actively supported the idea of tribunal’s creation by a UN Security Council resolution, then perhaps it is easy to put two and two together and understand what goal it [the tribunal] will pursue," the Russian foreign minister stressed.
> 
> "It turns out that it should guarantee the punishment of those whom Washington considers to be guilty. Let me leave it to Mr. Tefft’s conscience," Lavrov said.
> TASS Russia - MH17 crash tribunal creation aimed at punishing those whom US considers guilty Lavrov
> 
> In the telephone conversation with Dutch PM Mark Rutte, Putin detailed Russia’s position on the initiative of a range of countries, including the Netherlands, on establishing the international tribunal to persecute persons responsible for destroying the Malaysian airliner.
> 
> Putin said this proposal is "early and counterproductive," the Kremlin press service said.
> 
> "The focus was made that to adopt a decision on judicial mechanisms and to bring those guilty in this crime to justice, an active work is needed to complete the international investigation that should be thorough and objective and have an independent and comprehensive character," the statement said.
> 
> This should be in full compliance with the provisions of Resolution 2166 of the UN Security Council adopted on July 21, 2014 upon Russia’s initiative, the press service stressed.
> 
> The Kremlin press service also said that politicized smear campaigns in the media regarding the causes of the crash were inadmissible.
> TASS World - Putin says tribunal on MH17 crash early and counterproductive
> 
> MOSCOW, July 15 /TASS/. The Russian Investigation Committee is inclined to believe that an air-to air missile, which was not made in Russia, shot down a Malaysian Boeing (MH17 flight) over Ukraine a year ago.
> TASS World - Investigators MH17 shot down over Ukraine by air-to-air missile not made in Russia
> 
> THE HAGUE, July 13. /TASS/. The idea of establishing an international tribunal on the crash of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 in eastern Ukraine almost a year ago is at least strange, a Dutch journalist and the author of a book on the tragedy, Joost Niemoller said on Monday.
> 
> "It is also very weird. Because you have a situation when the public prosecution is setting up an investigation and now we hear that they still don’t know for which judge they are going to bring it. So what kind of an investigation is that?" Niemoller said.
> TASS World - Dutch expert says idea of setting up MH17 tribunal is weird



*I have a simple question: why all the West is blaming only Russia for MH-17
*
Poor, innocent Russia. LOL!


----------



## Stratford57

ESay said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would try to prove my innocence, duh.
> 
> 
> 
> I apologise for my importunity, but I want to ask one more question for clarifying – Would you try to take actions as soon as you became aware of that or you would wait until the police has released its false report and a biased trial begins?
Click to expand...


Esay, you love to ask your numerous questions (it would have been more useful to address some of them to official Washington and official Kiev though), why don’t you answer the ones you’ve been asked?  For example, a simple question from my post #100 : why everybody blames Russia for downing MH-17 and nobody has even thought about blaming Ukraine? BTW, it’s at least 50% possible as long as  “indisputable evidence” hasn’t been presented.

Tehon has been patiently answering your questions, now I’d like you  to answer a few questions of mine. (You may say they are off topic [just like you told Sonc in your post above]  but the answers for those questions may pour some light on why the tragedy with MH-17 in the sky over Ukraine was even possible).

It’s obvious you hated Yanukovich and you are glad he has been thrown  out and you have supported Maidan revolution.

1.  He only had 1 year of his presidency remained and he could be peacefully, legally and bloodlessly reelected. It would save a lot of money, human lives and Ukraine did not have to violate its constitution and to divide the society into two irreconcilable parts. Do you think other Ukrainian ex-presidents were any better? (All four were crooks.)  At least Yanukovich kept stable prices, utilities, retirement payments and  salaries and allowed people in the East to speak, to write and to be educated in their first Russian language (the right which new rulers already stolen from them).

2.  You call him “Russian puppet”, but if it was so, he would join Custom Union with Russia and Belarus right away but he never did (unfortunately, because the coup would not be possible if he did).

3.  You blame him for not signing the agreement about association with Europe. Now official Kiev has done it and it became obvious to those who are able to see: Europe will never “adopt” Ukraine as you wish for a number of reasons (2 main reasons are: Ukraine [it’s called Uk-Ruin now] becomes bigger mess every day and Europe doesn’t know what to do with millions of African and Middle East migrants). More and more Ukrainian residents can see clearly now: EU&US officials *only*  goals about Ukraine are to use it (and 40 million of its people) as a tool to harm Russia, no matter how many Ukrainian lives it takes, they obviously don’t care. How do you like to be just a tool?

4.  Junta promised you a sweet European life without corruption. What do we have in just a year and a half after they seized the power?

-  Salaries and retirement values dropped at least 3 times, while prices (especially on medicine!) and utilities grew up several times. Salaries are paid with 3 or more months delay. People are catastrophically loosing their jobs. Industry has been killed, almost all the plants have been closed. Recently even Saakashvili (former Georgian president and now governor of Odessa!) has counted that “even if Ukrainian economy stops dropping, and Ukraine starts increasing its growth 4% every year, we’ll reach 2013 level only in 20 years”.
 20 - YouTube
(And since  Ukrainian economy keeps going down every day, you may see your future grand children before you see any improvements in Ukraine.)

-  Numerous positions in the government were given to foreigners: Lithuanians, Georgians, Americans (Yaresko is a former US State Department employee). Whose interest do you think those people are representing: interests of Ukraine or interests of their own countries? Will they try to make Ukraine more independent or dependent?

-  Hundreds of people have been locked in prisons  and several were murdered for disagreeing with official Kiev (Busina, former Yanukovich administration  members). What  do you think about that?

-  Official Kiev is catching young guys in the streets without any IDs, faking their IDs and sending them to the war in SE. What will you feel if eventually they catch you and make you a piece of gun meat?

-  Investigation of the tragedies with killing over 100 people in Kiev before the coup and burning alive officially 50 (over hundred really) people in Odessa is stalled.

-  Corruption is flourishing (the main corrupts are new rulers of the country) in and numerous drunk/drugged Right Sector thugs with weapons are doing whatever they want all over Ukraine  with impunity. Police only watches but never intervenes.

-  Official Kiev has cancelled all Russian TV channels (which were super popular in the East) and now brainwashes Ukrainian residents with only one “truth”: Ukrainian truth.

Unfortunately I could go on and on with my questions. The main question is: was that firkin coup worth  so many troubles, misery all over the country and thousands of lost and handicapped human lives from both sides of the conflict?  Since new rulers have proclaimed freedom and democracy for Ukraine, why  did not they pay any attention to the demands of SE Ukraine residents: federalization, Russian as a second language and cooperation with Russia? Whom do you think official Kiev is fighting against in Donbass: terrorists (as they want you to believe) or regular civilians  like you and me?  Look at one of them: Vanya Voronov, a little boy, who lost his little brother, eyes, both  legs and an arm after one of thousands of Ukrainian shelling.


----------



## Sonc

Stratford57 said:


> “even if Ukrainian economy stops dropping, and Ukraine starts increasing its growth 4% every year, we’ll reach 2013 level only in 20 years”.


He said that Ukraine should do something ... unusual...
the *first step* - to raise the wages to officials =)))
"I will not survive on 5800 hryvnia". - he said


----------



## ESay

Stratford57 said:


> Esay, you love to ask your numerous questions (it would have been more useful to address some of them to official Washington and official Kiev though), why don’t you answer the ones you’ve been asked? For example, a simple question from my post #100 : why everybody blames Russia for downing MH-17 and nobody has even thought about blaming Ukraine? BTW, it’s at least 50% possible as long as “indisputable evidence” hasn’t been presented.
> 
> Tehon has been patiently answering your questions, now I’d like you to answer a few questions of mine. (You may say they are off topic [just like you told Sonc in your post above] but the answers for those questions may pour some light on why the tragedy with MH-17 in the sky over Ukraine was even possible).
> 
> It’s obvious you hated Yanukovich and you are glad he has been thrown out and you have supported Maidan revolution.
> 
> 1. He only had 1 year of his presidency remained and he could be peacefully, legally and bloodlessly reelected. It would save a lot of money, human lives and Ukraine did not have to violate its constitution and to divide the society into two irreconcilable parts. Do you think other Ukrainian ex-presidents were any better? (All four were crooks.) At least Yanukovich kept stable prices, utilities, retirement payments and salaries and allowed people in the East to speak, to write and to be educated in their first Russian language (the right which new rulers already stolen from them).
> 
> 2. You call him “Russian puppet”, but if it was so, he would join Custom Union with Russia and Belarus right away but he never did (unfortunately, because the coup would not be possible if he did).
> 
> 3. You blame him for not signing the agreement about association with Europe. Now official Kiev has done it and it became obvious to those who are able to see: Europe will never “adopt” Ukraine as you wish for a number of reasons (2 main reasons are: Ukraine [it’s called Uk-Ruin now] becomes bigger mess every day and Europe doesn’t know what to do with millions of African and Middle East migrants). More and more Ukrainian residents can see clearly now: EU&US officials *only* goals about Ukraine are to use it (and 40 million of its people) as a tool to harm Russia, no matter how many Ukrainian lives it takes, they obviously don’t care. How do you like to be just a tool?
> 
> 4. Junta promised you a sweet European life without corruption. What do we have in just a year and a half after they seized the power?
> 
> - Salaries and retirement values dropped at least 3 times, while prices (especially on medicine!) and utilities grew up several times. Salaries are paid with 3 or more months delay. People are catastrophically loosing their jobs. Industry has been killed, almost all the plants have been closed. Recently even Saakashvili (former Georgian president and now governor of Odessa!) has counted that “even if Ukrainian economy stops dropping, and Ukraine starts increasing its growth 4% every year, we’ll reach 2013 level only in 20 years”.
> 20 - YouTube
> (And since Ukrainian economy keeps going down every day, you may see your future grand children before you see any improvements in Ukraine.)
> 
> - Numerous positions in the government were given to foreigners: Lithuanians, Georgians, Americans (Yaresko is a former US State Department employee). Whose interest do you think those people are representing: interests of Ukraine or interests of their own countries? Will they try to make Ukraine more independent or dependent?
> 
> - Hundreds of people have been locked in prisons and several were murdered for disagreeing with official Kiev (Busina, former Yanukovich administration members). What do you think about that?
> 
> - Official Kiev is catching young guys in the streets without any IDs, faking their IDs and sending them to the war in SE. What will you feel if eventually they catch you and make you a piece of gun meat?
> 
> - Investigation of the tragedies with killing over 100 people in Kiev before the coup and burning alive officially 50 (over hundred really) people in Odessa is stalled.
> 
> - Corruption is flourishing (the main corrupts are new rulers of the country) in and numerous drunk/drugged Right Sector thugs with weapons are doing whatever they want all over Ukraine with impunity. Police only watches but never intervenes.
> 
> - Official Kiev has cancelled all Russian TV channels (which were super popular in the East) and now brainwashes Ukrainian residents with only one “truth”: Ukrainian truth.
> 
> Unfortunately I could go on and on with my questions. The main question is: was that firkin coup worth so many troubles, misery all over the country and thousands of lost and handicapped human lives from both sides of the conflict? Since new rulers have proclaimed freedom and democracy for Ukraine, why did not they pay any attention to the demands of SE Ukraine residents: federalization, Russian as a second language and cooperation with Russia? Whom do you think official Kiev is fighting against in Donbass: terrorists (as they want you to believe) or regular civilians like you and me? Look at one of them: Vanya Voronov, a little boy, who lost his little brother, eyes, both legs and an arm after one of thousands of Ukrainian shelling.



Yes, I think that you are trying to derail the theme, because it has taken a bad turn for you.

I will try to answer as briefly as I can.

1. It is a forum where everyone can choose those they want to mix up with or not. I have been coming across your posts for several months and I already have an impression about them and about you – this impression isn’t pleasant. I don’t know why Tehon decided to answer my questions. Maybe he just had spare time and he was simply killing an hour. I don’t want to spend my spare time on you.

2. I have found at least three examples of outright lie in your post. Do you think I will have a great desire to answer you after that? I won’t elaborate; I will use a tactic of Russian “patriots” and blame you for lying without providing evidence. You can claim (actually, you will claim) that it is simply a pretext not to answer your questions – I don’t care.

3. The themes you are raising in your questions have been discussed on this forum multiple times. And I have already given my opinion about them. I am not going to write the same once more – just because you are not interested in my opinion, all your questions have a more specific goal.

4. Democracy also means that the minority must meet the demands of the majority. I think that the majority of the Ukrainians don’t agree with the demands of a certain part of SE Ukraine residents (I could provide some explanations why I think so, but I won’t; you can consider that as my wrong opinion). There will be no federalisation, there will be no Russian language as a second language of the state (though, the Russian language along with some other languages of national minorities will have a status of regional languages). You can agree with all of that, or you can move elsewhere where the conditions for your life will be more pleasant for you. There are a couple of other options, but they are even less pleasant than those mentioned.


PS I hope our communication here will have the limited scopes.


----------



## Sonc

ESay said:


> Yes, I think that you are trying to derail the theme, because it has taken a bad turn for you.


I do not know who shot down the plane.
If you have not noticed in this topic we have 14 pages of questions. And no one answer, proved by 100%.

I do not know how (in this situation) things can be good or bad for us.
Well, OK. Maybe this is some of the Ukrainian logic.


----------



## Sonc

ESay said:


> I will use a tactic of Russian “patriots” and blame you for lying without providing evidence.


Lies Russian patriot - is your favorite topic.
But you have a very short memory.
You have already talked about lies Russian patriots.



ESay said:


> It is amazing to hear from Russian “patriot” about lie.
> What exactly is lie? The Moscow Council’s approval to organise a referendum about the monument is lie?
> Or lie is that half of Muscovites (I previously wrote ‘the majority’ but then wrote ‘half’ because you would say that 51% isn’t the majority) support the establishing of the monument? Here is the most recent link about it
> click (in Russian)





> The most amazing fact is that the support of ‘iron Felix’ among young people stands at the rate of 63 per cent.
> Storytellers.





> Oh, you Russian trolls are so boring and predictable. Now I have only one answer to you – Fuck off.





> Okay, stupid asshole. I have taken the trouble and looked for some information, special for you.





> Damn it. Are you crazy? There are already two links here which say that 146000 are 5%. Do you understand that? Five percent. Repeat after me, letter by letter – five percent, five percent, five percent. Is that enough?


*Do you remember what ended your bravado?*


> It seems that you are right, there must be 2% and they have gathered 2% of voters.


----------



## Sonc

ESay

I do not understand what your benefits.
I understand that Poroshenko is making money on this situation.

I understand that ordinary Ukrainians are tired of poverty. Corruption.

But what is the benefit of the howling?
Honestly...
You ideological hate Russian? Right sector or something else?
Or do you really believe in all this a lie?


Look what happens to the Ukrainians brain...
1 39
America with us!
Guys do not shoot, we have a Soviet flag.
The Soviet flag. German, SS flag, the flag of NATO, the European Union ... and many more flags =)) Flags on all occasions.

 ....

In your minds strangely coexist democratic values and coup d'etat.
The fight against corruption and the oligarch president.


----------



## Sonc

Tehon asked you the same question.

*"This sort of information provided by Sonc doesn't make it to Western media obviously but you must be privileged with access to it so why feign ignorance on this matter".
*
I understand that the Americans are very difficult to understand the situation. They do not know the language and our history.
Just as I do not know the nuances of US history.

But you know!
And how can you believe in that?

When I saw 15 minutes of this video, I thought - hell, the Russian is very bad. They are evil and insidious. They do a lot of evil things. And evil must be punished.
And if I lived in the US, I went to the Marines ... because what these people say is really bad.

But you know Russian, and understand that every 10 seconds in this video - a lie.




*
*


----------



## Sonc

For example. 2 minutes said that Ukraine the demilitarized.
is a synonym of robbed?



-Do you have something to defend themselves?
- ... 20 years had to deal with the army, and not to bring it to shit.
...
- Why are you in different shoes and pants?
- Because everyone is buying them in stores
- For their money?
- of course...

- our officers in the 25-28 years of living in a dormitory. *4 people on 12 square meters.
And nobody is interested ...

And how beautifully Saakashvili says in the Senate ... for the sake of world peace, Ukrainian officials robbed a powerful army.
But you cant do not understand it? This is hypocrisy.
Your profit is what?
*


----------



## Stratford57

Sonc said:


> the *first step* - to raise the wages to officials =)))
> "I will not survive on 5800 hryvnia".



My Georgian friend told me several years ago, when Saakashvili still was a president of Georgia: he and his Administration were paid directly by Washington. All Georgians were aware of it. It was like that long time before he attacked South Ossetia.  

And same thing now: Saakashvili will be paid by Washington as a governor of Odessa.


Seems like no surprise: same people, same techniques, same actions. _ NOTHING NEW…_.


----------



## Camp

If the purpose of all these post was to deflect away from any examination of Russia shooting down a civilian airliner over Ukraine and preventing an international investigation and formal judgement, a good job has been done, maybe.
Russia still remains one of the most despised and disrespected nations on earth because of MH-17, they are in a long term recession and the innocent citizens of Russia will suffer for years into the future with a failed economy because of this sad incident. The only justice will be that the Ukrainian separatist will be disliked and even hated by Russians and Ukrainians alike. They will never be forgotten for leaving those bodies in the hot sun to rot and be eaten by wild animals and dogs while they looted the bodies and baggage of the passengers and covered up their crime of mass murder. Russia will be forced to continue supporting these dregs and horrible humans far into the future. The majority in SE Ukraine will be forced to suffer because of the minority of alcoholic thugs who controlled the AK 47's.


----------



## Sonc

I speak at this forum respectfully with people who really interesting exchange of views and opinions.

But people like you make me just laugh and compassion.
Because I see a blind hatred towards Russian =)
Blind hatred is always a sign or stupid ... or resentful =)
Are you who from them?



Camp said:


> They will never be forgotten for leaving those bodies in the hot sun to rot and be eaten by wild animals and dogs while they looted the bodies and baggage of the passengers and covered up their crime of mass murder.



Can I see the source of this information?
where you're from?


----------



## Stratford57

ESay said:


> I have found at least three examples of outright lie in your post. Do you think I will have a great desire to answer you after that? I won’t elaborate; I will use a tactic of Russian “patriots” and blame you for lying without providing evidence. You can claim (actually, you will claim) that it is simply a pretext not to answer your questions – I don’t care.



I wonder, why you have a problem  answering my simple question: unless "indisputable evidence" is presented, it's at least 50% chance that Ukrainian army has shot the plane, right or not?????

Esay, I didn’t lie about anything. If you believe I did, please, tell me where. I know what I am talking about: I know witnesses to confirm it.

You and I live in the same country but in 2 parallel realities. Remember Lewis Carroll’s story about Alice behind the mirrors? That is a kind of reality Ukrainian Media likes to keep their residents in to make it easy to manipulate their minds. Sooner or later you will realize it too (just like all the brainwashed country of Uk-Ruin), official Kiev wants it to be later, not sooner.

And you are right: I did not expect you to answer my questions, otherwise it would shake all the brainwashed world you prefer to live in. If you are not aware about certain events, it doesn't automatically mean those events never happened. You prefer to keep your head in the sand, like an ostrich, however eventually your sand will turn  pretty hot.

P.S. I will never be a pleasant person for you. I noticed: you like to wag your tail when you talk to Americans on USMB. Probably Obama’s administration seem more pleasant to you. Yes, those guys always have pleasant smiles on their faces, they probably had the same smiles when they were bombing civilians in the Middle East  and will have same smiles if they decide to throw a few bombs on your city (pray those won’t be nuclear bombs).


----------



## Camp

Sonc said:


> I speak at this forum respectfully with people who really interesting exchange of views and opinions.
> 
> But people like you make me just laugh and compassion.
> Because I see a blind hatred towards Russian =)
> Blind hatred is always a sign or stupid ... or resentful =)
> Are you who from them?
> 
> 
> 
> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> They will never be forgotten for leaving those bodies in the hot sun to rot and be eaten by wild animals and dogs while they looted the bodies and baggage of the passengers and covered up their crime of mass murder.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can I see the source of this information?
> where you're from?
Click to expand...

I have no hatred of Russian people or even Russian nation. Thugs and violent men with vodka problems and mean spirits and tempers  have taken control of SE Ukraine and turned it into a very ugly place. Putin thought he could give this power to the gangsters and tough guys and now everyone in that region has to pay and will be paying for a long time.


----------



## ESay

Sonc said:


> Do you remember what ended your bravado?



Well, I will begin with commenting your post 134.

You remind me your friend Sbiker. He also made an attempt to quote my posts some time ago, but he actually quoted only that part that was suitable for him.
Man, maybe it would be more honestly to provide also your expressions which provoked such kind words from my part?
Also, if I remember correctly I admitted that I had screwed up with the figure and I even apologised for that. You decided that it is not worth a citation? Okay.
By the way, can you give an example when Russian “patriots” apologise for their mistakes or “mistakes”?
After that you are surprised that I use some kind words in your Russian “patriots” address? Well, I don’t consider it surprising at all.

And btw, I think that you ‘jump down’ from that theme.

Actually, after this your post I don’t see any reason to continue our discussion. But I will leave a couple of comments.



Sonc said:


> You ideological hate Russian?



I will open you a secret: some time ago (more than a year ago) I was watching Russian television (news programmes) via the Internet, primarily it was Channel One. I wanted to take a look on Russia from inside. Of course there were (and I believe still are) many lies about events in Ukraine. I don’t want to say that Ukrainian channels are saint. No, of course not. But I have already mentioned about a “crucified” boy in Slavyansk. This story was a red line for me. I think it is a bottom of Russian official journalism.

You are asking about a hate to Russia. No, I don’t think it is the case; it is rather ... a feeling of disgust.



And about Ukrainian army.
I am not sure what you are trying to prove me by those videos.

I will open you one more secret – I have served in Ukrainian army and I know without any videos how miserable it was (well, and still is). The Ukrainian army has been ruined in the course of the last twenty years and if you are trying to blame the current government for that, then it is ridiculous. Some people say that some steps have been taken in the last year to improve the things. I don’t know exactly whether it is true or not, I think it is rather true. But what I know certainly is that we need years in order to improve the things dramatically. It is the case not only for the army, but also for the whole country. I don’t believe we would do that with Yanukivych and Russia (consider that as my wrong opinion).


----------



## Sonc

Camp said:


> I have no hatred of Russian people or even Russian nation. Thugs and violent men with vodka problems and mean spirits and tempers have taken control of SE Ukraine and turned it into a very ugly place. Putin thought he could give this power to the gangsters and tough guys and now everyone in that region has to pay and will be paying for a long time.


Where are you from?
And 
_Can I see the source of this information?_
_




			I have no hatred of Russian people
		
Click to expand...

_Do you know the Doberman stories?


----------



## Sonc

ESay said:


> No, I don’t think it is the case; it is rather ... a feeling of disgust.


I wonder why?


----------



## Stratford57

ESay said:


> I will open you a secret: some time ago (more than a year ago) I was watching Russian television (news programmes) via the Internet, primarily it was Channel One. I wanted to take a look on Russia from inside. Of course there were (and I believe still are) many lies about events in Ukraine. I don’t want to say that Ukrainian channels are saint. No, of course not. But I have already mentioned about a “crucified” boy in Slavyansk. This story was a red line for me. I think it is a bottom of Russian official journalism.



I was watching Channel One of Russia too, when Russian news interviewed a woman, a refugee from Donbass, and she was telling that story about a crucified boy, the one you’ve mentioned. Within a month (as far as I remember) Channel One has apologized for “using the source which was not verified” in a news release.  I watched that too.  It was the only time their news were incorrect. And that’s why if somebody like you wants to blame Russian Media for lying, they would pull out this particular story over and over again.

If Ukrainian or Western TV channels suddenly decided to apologize for all the lies they’ve told, they would run out of airtime pretty darn quickly.

Speaking about Russian journalism, do you know at least 4 Russian journalists (Anton Voloshin, Igor Korneluk, Anatoliy Klyan, Andrey Stenin) were killed in Ukraine last year, trying to deliver the news about the war there? Those guys gave up their lives for the truth, which official Kiev and Washington are trying to hide so badly.

2 Russian journalists killed in Ukraine military shelling RT News

Russian journalist killed in Ukraine as gunmen fire on media bus World news The Guardian


----------



## Sonc

ESay said:


> And btw, I think that you ‘jump down’ from that theme.


Honestly, this topic has indeed become less interesting. For me.
The reason is simple.
I gave an example of engineering calculations ...
This is not a rumor. This is a scientific mathematical calculation.
For the accuracy of the company's engineers are legally responsible. All information is in the public domain. Any engineer in the world can check the calculations. If it is proven that they are faking ... director and chief engineer will be judged.

You said 

*Unfortunately, I am not an expert in aviation, and therefore I can not draw reliable conclusions from the Almaz-Antei's press-conference.*

You can not seriously discuss the details.
But continued to write rumors, gossip.
From this discussion, I "jump down"...


----------



## Sonc

ESay said:


> I will open you a secret: some time ago (more than a year ago) I was watching Russian television


It is very strange and stupid.
I do not have a TV for 10 years. I find it difficult to comment on.

Take a book of Edward Bernays "Propaganda".

Edward Bernays (1891-1995) - a nephew of Sigmund Freud, and the discoverer of the scientific techniques of formation and management of public opinion. During the First World War, Bernays together with Walter
Lippmann was a member of the Committee for the information of the US population (CPI) - a powerful propaganda apparatus, which

He touted war on the American people as a means to "defend democracy". Propaganda Strategy
all subsequent wars were based on models developed by the CPI.

*Conscious and skillful manipulation orderly habits and tastes of the masses is an important
component of a democratic society. It sets in motion this invisible social mechanism
an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our (US) country.*

Putin is just learning to use propaganda. But propaganda is, in any country.

I use other sources - friends, forums, social networks. 3 languages.
Russian Ukrainian and English. My English is very bad but I can understand the meaning of the text)))


I can share sources.
Yaroslav Turchaninov fromkyiv Instagram photos and videos
Here instogramm colleagues from Kiev.
He participated in Maidan.


Here it is democratically and peacefully at the table Yanukovich (in some government building).
https://instagram.com/p/lAU08zneh5/?taken-by=фрумкив

What would you understand the level of intelligence Maidan participants in the same album, he puts photos of his girlfriend ...
Instagram

These are the people who decide the fate of the country =))))) 18 years morons.
Is it Kremlin propaganda ?? or Ukrainian Comedy Club?


----------



## Sonc

Is it kremlin propaganda or truth?
Ukrainian officials saying ... of the Crimean population (before the referendum).

*It is necessary to give any promises and guarantees to make any concessions. And hanging ... hang them need later
*
And he called the Crimean population word that I have not found in the dictionary =))) - "мрази".
Post has 3,000 Likes


----------



## Sonc

Stratford57 said:


> Speaking about Russian journalism, do you know at least 4 Russian journalists (Anton Voloshin, Igor Korneluk, Anatoliy Klyan, Andrey Stenin) were killed in Ukraine last year, trying to deliver the news about the war there? Those guys gave up their lives for the truth, which official Kiev and Washington are trying to hide so badly.


Yet was killed Oles Buzin
Oleg Kalashnikov 
Olga Moroz
Вячеслав Веремий
This Ukrainian journalists who disagreed with Kiev.

Below is the freedom of speech in the Ukrainian parliament

1:00+

0:30

0:50 

LOL


----------



## ESay

Stratford57 said:


> It was the only time their news were incorrect.


Actually, after that passage any further comments are senseless.



Stratford57 said:


> Within a month (as far as I remember) Channel One has apologized for “using the source which was not verified” in a news release.



I could ask you to provide a link where they apologised, and I know what story you will provide, but unfortunately on this forum there are quite a few people who know Russian and thereby they will be unable to understand this “apologising”.




Sonc said:


> From this discussion, I "jump down"...



If you want to jump down from the theme, then you can open another thread where you can discuss everything you want. I think that nobody holds you here forcibly.


----------



## Tehon

Is this a good example of Ukrainian freedom of speech?


----------



## ESay

BTW, I has now read the rules of the forum (well, yes, I have to admit that I haven’t read them before). In the rules there is a paragraph:

_Off-topic posts may be edited, trashed, deleted, or moved to an appropriate forum as per administrator & moderator discretion at any time within any forum and/or sub forum._

Is there any moderator reading this thread? I wonder whether it is possible to remove the posts not related to the theme to some another theme. If it is possible, then do it please. If you will decide that some of my posts (or all of them) are also not related, I absolutely don’t mind removing them.


----------



## Sonc

it's really funny)
Remove opinion, which does not like a modern trend in Ukraine.





You do not understand how these messages relate to the Boeing?


----------



## Stratford57

ESay said:


> I could ask you to provide a link where they apologised, and I know what story you will provide, but unfortunately on this forum there are quite a few people who know Russian and thereby they will be unable to understand this “apologising”.



Esay, you didn’t bother to answer my questions, but you want me to watch all the news releases  from Channel One Russia from last summer to find that particular one for you? You are not that important for me, sorry…



Sonc said:


> Yet was killed Oles Buzin
> Oleg Kalashnikov
> Olga Moroz
> Вячеслав Веремий
> This Ukrainian journalists who disagreed with Kiev.



Freedom of speech in Ukraine after the coup is like that: it’s super dangerous to express your point of view in Ukraine, unless it supports Kiev Junta. Hundreds of people with "incorrect point of view" have already disappeared, thrown into prison or simply killed. (BTW, ESay is using that right of speech  "correctly", he will survive  ).

Since the beginning of the conflict in Ukraine, at least 8 journalists have been killed in shelling in the east. The UN Human Rights Monitoring Mission has collected information about at least 78 journalists who have been captured and held by armed groups. Some have been subjected to torture and ill-treatment. Although such incidents have become less frequent and less violent than in 2014, new cases are still reported. The initial struggle by the armed groups for control of the media outlets earlier this year resulted in seizure of editorial offices and TV towers, obstruction of lawful activity of journalists, intimidation and threats to media professionals by armed groups, some of which persist until now. At this time, eastern Ukraine remains one of the most dangerous places in the world for media professionals.

At the same time, let us not forget the case of the Oles Buzyna, a Ukrainian journalist, known for his criticism of the Government, in particular in relation to the Maidan events and the conflict in the east who was shot dead near his home on 16 April, by unknown gunmen. This is a case that casts many doubts on the true motivation of the killer and the longer the accountability process is delayed, the further these doubts are reinforced.

Statement by Ivan imonovi Assistant Secretary-General for Human Rights at the Conference on Journalists Safety Media Freedom and Pluralism in Times of Conflict Vienna 15 June 2015

                                 *       *      *

*Ukraine remains the most dangerous destination for journalists reporting from conflict zones, UN Assis tant Secretary-General for Human Rights Ivan Simonovic said June,15.*

Simonovic noted that media workers in Ukraine are endangered not only in the zone of armed conflict between government forces and independence supporters, citing the recent murder of opposition journalist Oles Buzina.

The UN official stressed that Buzina was a critic of the current Ukrainian government adding that it is still unclear who is responsible for his murder.

Buzina, 45, was shot dead in April in Kiev by two masked gunmen. His murder was preceded by the killings of two other opposition figures, Serhiy Suhobok and Oleh Kalashnikov, also known for their criticism of current Ukrainian leadership.

During the conflict in southeastern Ukraine, which began in April 2014, dozens of journalists have been killed, injured or come under fire.

Ukraine Remains Most Dangerous Place for Reporters - UN Sputnik International

                          *     *     *

1. Oleg Kalashnikov, a former deputy of the Verkhovna Rada from the Party of Regions, was shot at the entrance of his house.

2. Alex Kolesnik, former governor of the Kharkiv region, found hanged.

3. Stanislav Miller, a former MP from the Party of Regions, a possible suicide.

4. Sergei Walter, a former mayor of Melitopol, found hanged.

5. Bordyug Alexander, deputy chief of the Interior Ministry of Melitopol, the official reason - died of hypertension.

6. Peklyushenko Alexander, a former governor of Zaporizhzhya region, died from a gunshot wound.

7. Mikhail Chechetov, the former head of the State Property Fund, chairman of the Party of Regions faction in the Verkhovna Rada, out of the window.

8. Sergey Melnichuk, a former prosecutor of Odessa, jumped out the window.

9. Nikolai Sergienko, a former deputy chief of the Ukrainian railways, allegedly shot himself.

10. Oles Buzina, a pro-Russian journalist and writer, was killed near his home.

Google Translate




Translation^: Who else they are preparing to murder?

Junta throws into the prison even the people who are handicapped (like Oleg Novikov, who lost his leg in Afghanistan) just for wearing the Georgian ribbon (a symbol of the victory over German Nazis):


----------



## ESay

Sonc said:


> it's really funny)
> Remove opinion, which does not like a modern trend in Ukraine.




Actually, my humble request isn’t about deleting some posts, but about removing them to another thread. And I don’t know why you don’t support this idea. I think it would be convenient for everybody – you would have a new thread which may be called “Democracy in contemporary Ukraine” and where you and your friends could discuss this stuff without interrupting; anyone who would have an intention to discuss MH17 could do it here without off-topic. But if you oppose such a move, there is no problem about it. It is not a Russian forum, so here anyone can express their thoughts.



Sonc said:


> You do not understand how these messages relate to the Boeing?



Actually, you admitted that you had jumped down from the theme. And now you are asking me about that.

Okay, let me see... You have posted here about the so-called coup and its consequences. So, there was the so-called coup a year and a half ago, after that using the pretext of protection of Crimea’s Russian-speaking population there was the annexation of Crimea, after that there was (and still is) a Russian protection of the residents of Donbass thanks to which 7000 people have been killed (according to the UN) including all the passengers and the crew of MH17 ...

Yes, it has something to do with the Boeing.


----------



## Camp

Russian supported separatist or Russian troops shot down a civilian airliner over Ukraine with a Russian missile and murdered 298 people a little over a year ago. The UN voted to have a tribunal review and further investigate the incident to further the cause of bringing the murderers to justice. The Russian's vetoed the successfully passed resolution so that the murderers and witnesses can not be made to testify in an open court or tribunal setting and the evidence can not be judged and contested in an open and judicial setting. The defenders of the guilty will do everything and anything they can to deflect and divert attention away from the truth behind those 298 murders and to protect the murderers. Their purpose is to let it get old and boring so it will fade away into history. The only justice that will be served is the sanctions and shunning the world heaps upon the guilty and their protectors. Those they hide among and behind will be as usual, collateral damage.


----------



## Sonc

ESay said:


> It is not a Russian forum, so here anyone can express their thoughts.


Let me remind you. It is not I weep - Moderator, Moderator delete posts! 



ESay said:


> to which 7000 people have been killed


They were killed by the government of Ukraine.


Now I'll explain ...


----------



## Sonc

Imagine that in New York City killed a policeman. detained two suspects.
1 - white guy. Father veteran. Mother - a social worker. The guy is a good student.
2 - a black guy. The mother - a prostitute. Father - in prison.

There is no evidence. Only biography.
Which of them killed a policeman?


It really looks like the situation with Boeing.
When I asked - why is Mr. Putin?
Someone (maybe you) said - well, they could be mistaken. And the separatists could be poorly trained.

OK. If ... IF ... repeat it all the evidence ... then minimum need to talk honestly biography.

I quoted the Ukrainian military that the Ukrainian army is in a state of "a piece of shit."


1) If you assume that the reason was the poor training of the separatists ... Ukrainian military have the same poor preparation.

2) If you assume that the Russian drink ... it was a video with drunken Ukrainian military.

3) If you assume that the  separatists were wrong ... here's a video where Ukrainian tanker kills 2 Ukrainian military.
*18+*

4) There is a lot of information that proves that some military units ( Right Sector) do not comply with orders to Kiev.

5) There are proven facts, when the Ukrainian division (armed) kidnapped and tortured people. Commits an offense. For example battalion tornado.

After these facts, we still have a black and a white guy? Or the situation has changed?


----------



## ESay

Sonc said:


> Let me remind you. It is not I weep - Moderator, Moderator delete posts!



Thanks for the reminding, but I think that ‘remove smth to ...’ isn’t equal to ‘delete smth’. Maybe someone from the native speakers will explain whether it is the case or not.



Sonc said:


> After these facts, we still have a black and a white guy? Or the situation has changed?



Will there be any continuation of the story? I think that now we have two black guys.


----------



## Sonc

Another one of the facts on which I would like to pay attention - objective information.

And here the situation is the same as with black and white guy.

I gave proof ... the elected deputies do not give a talk. In Parliament !!!
What right do they have?

They killed a lot of journalists and some MPs, who did not agree.

In your country there are parties that can threaten to kill the president !!!

How in such a country feel themselves ordinary citizens? If around the country ride pickups with machine guns?






Away from the front lines. They can kill a person and throw the body in the trunk.


----------



## ESay

Hey, “patriots”, where are you? We were told a sad story about two guys, and what conclusions we should make about MH17 after that?



Sonc said:


> I gave proof ... the elected deputies do not give a talk. In Parliament !!!
> What right do they have?



BTW, you should gather your objective information more thoroughly. The fourth video in the post 150 was released in the times of Yanukovych.


----------



## Sonc

ESay said:


> BTW, you should gather your objective information more thoroughly. The fourth video in the post 150 was released in the times of Yanukovych.


Who signed as "LOL"? =))))

Thank you. This is a very important point.
Sorry, I'm not an expert in the "rada"-mixfight. I thought it was other season =)))

But since then much has changed, right?
A new format - 1 v 1.
Fighter clearly improved technique of blows by hands.
And what the name of this format? 
It was a judge?))

Or this format. - "Mr President... Go on dick"=)))


----------



## ESay

Sonc said:


> Thank you. This is a very important point.
> Sorry, I'm not an expert in the "rada"-mixfight. I thought it was other season =)))



You are welcome.

We are talking about the freedom of speech? Okay, I found one video. The video was shot in Crimea in the March of 2014 when the “liberation of the peninsula began”. Briefly, the old woman is saying that she doesn’t want to see “the liberators” on her land and that Crimea is Ukraine.


----------



## ESay

Sonc said:


> But since then much has changed, right?
> A new format - 1 v 1.
> Fighter clearly improved technique of blows by hands.
> And what the name of this format?
> It was a judge?))



Yeah, I understand that a judge in a trash can also has something to do with MH17.

So, thanks to you, we have seen here the atrocities committed by the fascist junta. Do I understand correctly that you are trying to say that the Russian rulers seeing all of that have decided to protect innocent people of Donbass, but something has gone in a wrong direction and as a result of it the tragedy with MH17 has taken place?


----------



## Sonc

ESay said:


> Hey, “patriots”, where are you? We were told a sad story about two guys, and what conclusions we should make about MH17 after that?


Unfortunately, the story is a long one. Because the news say many lies ...
Boeing is not a separate event. He is part of the puzzle.
By this I think you need to try to see the whole picture.

I will say to you the secret - Crimea was never annexed.
 Annexation (Latin ad, to, and nexus, joining) is the *forcible* acquisition of a state's territory by another state

In Crimea, there were no deaths. There was a referendum.

Ukraine said that the Crimean parliament had no right.
And who has the right to encroach on the lives of the legitimate president?

Law is that works for everyone and always.

When 18-year-old morons overthrow President ... it's not the law.

This is an indication that the government authorized Ukraine - *political impotents*.
Who for 20 years has not been able to solve those issues, coordinate standing in the country.

In the US, was a civil war between north and south. Russia is to blame?
No. Just off the north and south had different views. And the problem is not solved peacefully.

As a result, many Americans gave their lives for what would be the state, a model that allows all to live peacefully in the United States.

Lugansk, Donetsk and Crimea would federalization. What they could make their laws. How and when to celebrate the holiday. The language they speak.
In the US, each state may adopt their own laws. Why is it in the United States but can not be in Donetsk?

People want
1) Security
2) that the law protects their interests

It is a crime?

Ukraine for 20 years could not give it to people.
Who is to blame?
Russia, which allows your workers get to work in Russia? What people could feed the family in the Ukraine. Because the government of Ukraine did not solve the problem of unemployment.
Or give a discount on gas?


----------



## Camp

ESay said:


> Sonc said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you. This is a very important point.
> Sorry, I'm not an expert in the "rada"-mixfight. I thought it was other season =)))
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are welcome.
> 
> We are talking about the freedom of speech? Okay, I found one video. The video was shot in Crimea in the March of 2014 when the “liberation of the peninsula began”. Briefly, the old woman is saying that she doesn’t want to see “the liberators” on her land and that Crimea is Ukraine.
Click to expand...

SONC thinks a video of an old woman being knocked down by a thug is funny. All those uniformed men standing around watching and not one man enough to protect her. Separatist are horrible human beings.


----------



## ESay

Sonc said:


> Unfortunately, the story is a long one. Because the news say many lies ...



I think that in this case you should significantly shorten your story, because I want to see the story’s end before I die.



Sonc said:


> I will say to you the secret - Crimea was never annexed.
> Annexation (Latin ad, to, and nexus, joining) is the *forcible* acquisition of a state's territory by another state



What did you do a year and a half ago? You should have provided this explanation to the UN General Assembly when it condemned Russia for the annexation. I know, they are losers and know nothing about international law.

BTW, what about Crimean Tatars?




Sonc said:


> People want
> 1) Security
> 2) that the law protects their interests



So, Russia provides security and protection for the people of Donbass?




Sonc said:


> Ukraine for 20 years could not give it to people.
> Who is to blame?
> Russia, which allows your workers get to work in Russia? What people could feed the family in the Ukraine. Because the government of Ukraine did not solve the problem of unemployment.
> Or give a discount on gas?



What conclusions should we make? Of course, you will claim that Russia worries about common people in Ukraine. But I have one trouble with this reasoning. Let’s imagine that Russia cuts all “benefits” for Ukraine, and this provokes even more significant decrease in the standard of living in Ukraine, there will be unrests and after that there will be the overthrowing of the junta. Of course, the possible unrests are not a pleasant thing, but it is better that living under the fascist junta. Take a look at your and your friends’ posts above. Do you understand how terrible the situation is in Ukraine now? What can be worse than it? And despite that, the discounts on gas and other “benefits” are in place. And now I have come to a conclusion and this conclusion ... Russia is virtually supporting the fascist junta.


----------



## ESay

Camp said:


> Separatist are horrible human beings.



Has anybody had any doubts about it, except of Russian "patriots"?


----------



## Tehon

ESay said:


> *Of course, the possible unrests are not a pleasant thing, but it is better that living under the fascist junta.* Take a look at your and your friends’ posts above. Do you understand how terrible the situation is in Ukraine now? What can be worse than it?





ESay said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> Separatist are horrible human beings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Has anybody had any doubts about it, except of Russian "patriots"?
Click to expand...

Do you contradict yourself ESay? Is your hatred of Russia so great that you let it cloud your judgment? If you don't like the fascist junta why would you not take a stand against it and those that have empowered it instead of those that resist it? Don't you understand that the West is using the facist elements in your country to further their own agenda? Do you not learn anything from watching what the West has done to the Middle East? Wake up man.


----------



## Sonc

ESay said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> 
> Separatist are horrible human beings.
> 
> 
> 
> Has anybody had any doubts about it, except of Russian "patriots"?
Click to expand...

This is an excellent example of propaganda, thank you for it.
But first I'm going to ask you a favor.
Translate please that says this nationalist 0: 15+
Translate please get that highlighted in red in this image (facebook Ukrainian officials).


----------



## Sonc

ESay said:


> BTW, what about Crimean Tatars?


Tatars also voted. Or what do you want to ask? Please specify your question.


----------



## ESay

Sonc said:


> This is an excellent example of propaganda, thank you for it.



Oh, as I can see this my statement caught your and your friends’ fancy. You are welcome.
Suddenly, the idea came to mind “Why not to use the tactic of Russian “patriots”. It should be interesting.” I am glad that you liked it. I will be repeating that from time to time.



Sonc said:


> But first I'm going to ask you a favor.



Man, it is interesting to mix up with you, but not to such an extent. Ask your friends, I am sure they will help you.

And I am not sure what you are trying to prove by posting this picture again. If I remember correctly, we have already come to the conclusion that the junta is absolute evil. What is unclear for me is why the Russian rulers are supporting the junta economically and whether Russia is protecting the people of Donbass or not.




Sonc said:


> Tatars also voted. Or what do you want to ask? Please specify your question.



If they decide to demand national autonomy or proclaim their own state.


----------



## ESay

Tehon said:


> Do you contradict yourself ESay? Is your hatred of Russia so great that you let it cloud your judgment? If you don't like the fascist junta why would you not take a stand against it and those that have empowered it instead of those that resist it?



I recommend you to reread my post with a certain amount of scepticism.


----------



## ESay

Tehon said:


> Do you not learn anything from watching what the West has done to the Middle East? Wake up man.



If I understand correctly, you live in the US. And you strongly disagree with some things which exist in the US and which the US provoke around the world. Right? Can you say briefly what you want to change and what you have done in order to change something?


----------



## Stratford57

ESay said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you not learn anything from watching what the West has done to the Middle East? Wake up man.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If I understand correctly, you live in the US. And you strongly disagree with some things which exist in the US and which the US provoke around the world. Right? Can you say briefly what you want to change and what you have done in order to change something?
Click to expand...


Before you ask Tehon about what *he* has done to change something, may be we could hear from you what* you, * proud Ukrainian, have done to change something in your wonderland of Uk-Ruin. I can't wait to know...


----------



## Sonc

ESay said:


> Oh, as I can see this my statement caught your and your friends’ fancy. You are welcome.
> Suddenly, the idea came to mind “Why not to use the tactic of Russian “patriots”. It should be interesting.” I am glad that you liked it. I will be repeating that from time to time.


You always used the tactics the Ukrainian government and the promotion of the United States - show 1 frame.
Do not write context. Do not write the story.
And yes I really funny to read your clown posts.

Who are you writing from powerlessness, every time when you realize that the evidence of the crimes of power in Kiev show too much.

In Kiev, killed 100 people, burned police.
And all you have to say in response - look, they pushed grandmother!

*I asked you to transfer important information.
Not including a reverse gear ... translate it.*


----------



## Stratford57

ESay said:


> What did you do a year and a half ago? You should have provided this explanation to the UN General Assembly when it condemned Russia for the annexation. I know, they are losers and know nothing about international law.
> BTW, what about Crimean Tatars?



Below you'll find enough information about Crimea as a part of Russia as well as lots of links for you, links-lover, and stories from European witnesses.

A delegation of French lawmakers has come to Russia recently to pay a visit to the Crimea – the first such visit since the region’s accession to the Russian Federation in March 2014.

"We saw happy people here who live in Crimea and have returned to Russia. We talked to young people. It’s a very different picture from what is shown in our countries. I saw such a warm welcome here. We had a completely different idea about Crimea [before the visit]," one of the 10 lawmakers told journalists after talking to residents of the Crimean city of Yalta.
French Lawmakers Surprised by Happy Citizens in Crimea s Yalta Sputnik International

_“I am very happy that I came here, because listening to you [residents of Crimea], I understand the position, which is not expressed anywhere – in any of the media in Europe, in none of the Parliaments of Europe, nor in the European Parliament or the Council of Europe, nor the OSCE,”_di Borgo said.

_"I think public opinion is making a gradual evolution,"_he concluded. "_I hope our trip to Russia will speed up this evolution, as the French government will have to give a bigger measure of attention to this opinion at a certain point."_
No grounds to keep Russia sanctions in place French MPs visiting Crimea RT News
TASS Russia - French lawmakers say Crimea s return to Russia legitimate

A visit to a French military cemetery [the biggest cemetery of French soldiers abroad] was included into their agenda too. Official Kiev kept misinforming the world about bad condition of the cemetery and possible plans of destroying it. The lawmakers could see with their own eyes: the Memorial was in an ideal condition. They told the press later, what a huge difference was between the way Western Media reported about the situation in Crimea and reality.

Official Kiev was pretty mad, because French lawmakers could see the truth about Crimea (which Ukraine was trying to hide so badly) with their own eyes and tell the Western world about it.
Ukrainian MP threatens French lawmakers with jail after their visit to Crimea Veterans Today
Kiev to Ban French Lawmakers from Entering Ukraine for Visiting Crimea Sputnik International

French lawmaker Jacques Myard asked her to refrain from the use of the term ‘annexation’ in respect of the recent development in Crimea. "It is a kind of return to a natural course of history, since Crimea has always belonged to Russia," he said. "I think we must face up to reality. There is no bigger mistake in foreign politics that denial of the reality, and our Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius keeps on saying we are going to plunge into no wars over Crimea. So, time is coming when we must emerge from the state of deception and begin reckon with reality."
TASS World - Crimea has always belonged to Russia French lawmaker

And the info below is just for you, Camp. It’s about Crimean Tatars, whom you worry so much about.

The French lawmakers became convinced that Crimea had avoided war and anarchy unlike many trouble spots in Ukraine, the magazine went on to say. "The military and police presence was moderate. The people of Crimea did not look like they were leaving under occupation. On the contrary, they were happy that they had made their choice  in favor of Russia and could now live in peace," the report’s author who accompanied the French lawmakers on their Crimean voyage said.

"It is necessary to visit a place yourself in order to understand how things are," the French lawmaker stressed.
Commenting on the position of Crimean Tatars during his stay in Sevastopol, Mariani said they did not look unhappy at all.
"Lots of distorted information is roaming around Europe. I met Crimean Tatars in Yalta. They did not look unhappy at all. On the contrary, they invited me to attend their forum and said that after Crimea’s reunification with Russia their language was granted official status," Mariani said.
TASS World - French lawmakers convinced that Crimea avoided war and anarchy Valleurs Actuelles

German and Italian lawmakers may visit the Crimean Peninsula following the French delegation.
German Parliamentarians to Discuss Visit to Crimea Sputnik International
Italian Lawmakers Trip to Crimea Unlikely to Interest Media - Politician Sputnik International

Also Joe Lynn Turner, the legendary ex-singer for Deep Purple and Rainbow, professed his love for Crimea and claimed that he was not afraid of getting slapped with Western sanctions for having visited the Russian peninsula. He will present his shows in Crimea this weekend.The singer elaborated that the Western vision of what is going on in Crimea bears no relation to reality, and nailed the West for its blatant propaganda campaign aimed against the Russian peninsula.

"The truth is on your side," the legendary singer told Crimeans, adding that he believes everything will be fine.
Deep Purple s Ex-Vocalist Turner Professes His Love for Russian Crimea Sputnik International

So, let’s see where we are now: Ukrainian/Western anti-Russian propaganda has been based on 3 alleged accusations:

1. Annexation of Crimea;
2. Presence of Russian regular troops in SE Ukraine (no adequate proof has been presented);
3. Downing of Malaysian Boeing more than a year ago (no adequate proof  has been resented).

As soon as the Western world figures out all above has been lies, all anti-Russian propaganda will collapse as a house of cards and it will be “Game over” for Kiev Junta.  As we can see, 'Accusation N 1' is about to fade away, that’s why official Kiev was so scared to death and so mad about French lawmakers’ visit to Crimea.


----------



## ESay

Sonc said:


> You always used the tactics the Ukrainian government and the promotion of the United States - show 1 frame.
> Do not write context. Do not write the story.
> And yes I really funny to read your clown posts.



Yeah, unfortunately it is impossible to speak with Russian “patriots” seriously. So, my special clown posts are intended to special clowns. Enjoy!



Sonc said:


> Who are you writing from powerlessness, every time when you realize that the evidence of the crimes of power in Kiev show too much.
> 
> In Kiev, killed 100 people, burned police.
> And all you have to say in response - look, they pushed grandmother!



Frankly, I haven’t understood much from this passage, but if you are again talking about the junta, then I will again repeat you – you have convinced me that the junta is absolute evil. They are terrible people. But after that I have two questions, just for clarification (I answered them above but you must have overlooked them): 1. Why is the Russian government supporting the junta economically (if I remember correctly, it is you mentioned about the discounts on gas); 2. Is the Russian government protecting the people of Donbass from the nasty fascist junta?



Sonc said:


> I asked you to transfer important information.
> Not including a reverse gear ... translate it.



Wake up, dude. It is a forum. Nobody owes you anything here. If you can’t translate something and your friends have refused to help you, then hire a translator.


----------



## Tehon

ESay said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you contradict yourself ESay? Is your hatred of Russia so great that you let it cloud your judgment? If you don't like the fascist junta why would you not take a stand against it and those that have empowered it instead of those that resist it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I recommend you to reread my post with a certain amount of scepticism.
Click to expand...

 No worries, I am skeptical of you in general. Why avoid the questions, are they difficult?


----------



## Tehon

ESay said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you not learn anything from watching what the West has done to the Middle East? Wake up man.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If I understand correctly, you live in the US. And you strongly disagree with some things which exist in the US and which the US provoke around the world. Right? Can you say briefly what you want to change and what you have done in order to change something?
Click to expand...

You are correct in your assessment. There are numerous things I would like changed in this country but this is secondary to the second part of your question. In our society things are changed thru elections so the first thing I would say is that I vote. In between elections I converse with my local representatives in government and give my opinions on topics that interest me. I am also concerned about the quality of journalism in my country and I give donations to support independent journalists. Journalists who are not connected to the corporate/state structure. And I speak out to anyone who will listen and you can be assured that my perspective is not a popular one. Does this meet your satisfaction?


----------



## PK1

Tehon said:


> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you not learn anything from watching what the West has done to the Middle East? Wake up man.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If I understand correctly, you live in the US. And you strongly disagree with some things which exist in the US and which the US provoke around the world. Right? Can you say briefly what you want to change and what you have done in order to change something?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are correct in your assessment. There are numerous things I would like changed in this country but this is secondary to the second part of your question. In our society things are changed thru elections so the first thing I would say is that I vote. In between elections I converse with my local representatives in government and give my opinions on topics that interest me. I am also concerned about the quality of journalism in my country and I give donations to support independent journalists. Journalists who are not connected to the corporate/state structure. And I speak out to anyone who will listen and you can be assured that my perspective is not a popular one. Does this meet your satisfaction?
Click to expand...


---
Wow, what generic *bullshit*. Your response is not reflective of a USA citizen, or even an experienced Russian diplomat or spy.
It's obvious to me that you are probably  in Russia (Leningrad/St.P?) trolling Kremlin propaganda along with Stratford & friends.

However, I have to admit that the Kremlin propaganda in this forum is very good overall, but not as effective as RT.

Regarding this thread's *MH-17 topic*, the Kremlin's game has weakened significantly because of its veto on the UN proposal for a criminal tribunal.
If Kremlin & its Donbas warriors are innocent, they would love to have such a tribunal, and the Russian people agree. Putin showed his cowardice for all to see ... to buy time before his guilt becomes more evident?

Regarding the *Donbas war*, it's very simple. Uninvited Russian citizens don't belong in the Ukraine. Get the fuck out!


----------



## Tehon

PK1 said:


> ---
> Wow, what generic *bullshit*. Your response is not reflective of a USA citizen, or even an experienced Russian diplomat or spy.
> It's obvious to me that you are probably  in Russia (Leningrad/St.P?) trolling Kremlin propaganda along with Stratford & friends.


My response was generic but not typical of an American? 
Then you take the amazing leap of comparing me to Russian diplomat or spy! 

 about your opinion, you're an idiot


----------



## ESay

Tehon said:


> You are correct in your assessment. There are numerous things I would like changed in this country but this is secondary to the second part of your question. In our society things are changed thru elections so the first thing I would say is that I vote. In between elections I converse with my local representatives in government and give my opinions on topics that interest me. I am also concerned about the quality of journalism in my country and I give donations to support independent journalists. Journalists who are not connected to the corporate/state structure. And I speak out to anyone who will listen and you can be assured that my perspective is not a popular one. Does this meet your satisfaction?



Yes, thanks. I am completely satisfied.


----------



## ESay

Tehon said:


> No worries, I am skeptical of you in general. Why avoid the questions, are they difficult?



_Do you contradict yourself ESay? Is your hatred of Russia so great that you let it cloud your judgment?_

Yeah, you are right. My hatred to Russia was so great that I was unable to see the real truth. You know, the Western propaganda is so strong that it is almost impossible not to bend under their pressure. But thanks to our friends on this forum, I have managed to open my eyes and to see the light before me.

_If you don't like the fascist junta why would you not take a stand against it and those that have empowered it instead of those that resist it?_

If you want to have some issue resolved completely, you need to eliminate the very cause of the troubles, rather than struggle with the effects. The fascist junta is only puppets – we remove some of them (or even them all) and their masters will easily find new puppets. You mentioned above about the Middle East. What is going on in the Middle East, Ukraine and the other parts around the world are only the effects. The cause of all of that is American imperialism which serves the interests of the moneybags on the Wall Street and elsewhere. If we want to kill a hydra, it is senseless to cut off its one head or two heads. We must destroy it completely in its nest. So, it is of crucial importance to have our guy in a lair of the beast. And I am very glad that at least there is somebody who can serve the great idea of liberation from tyranny and imperialism.


----------



## Tehon

ESay said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> No worries, I am skeptical of you in general. Why avoid the questions, are they difficult?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Do you contradict yourself ESay? Is your hatred of Russia so great that you let it cloud your judgment?_
> 
> Yeah, you are right. My hatred to Russia was so great that I was unable to see the real truth. You know, the Western propaganda is so strong that it is almost impossible not to bend under their pressure. But thanks to our friends on this forum, I have managed to open my eyes and to see the light before me.
> 
> _If you don't like the fascist junta why would you not take a stand against it and those that have empowered it instead of those that resist it?_
> 
> If you want to have some issue resolved completely, you need to eliminate the very cause of the troubles, rather than struggle with the effects. The fascist junta is only puppets – we remove some of them (or even them all) and their masters will easily find new puppets. You mentioned above about the Middle East. What is going on in the Middle East, Ukraine and the other parts around the world are only the effects. The cause of all of that is American imperialism which serves the interests of the moneybags on the Wall Street and elsewhere. If we want to kill a hydra, it is senseless to cut off its one head or two heads. We must destroy it completely in its nest. So, it is of crucial importance to have our guy in a lair of the beast. And I am very glad that at least there is somebody who can serve the great idea of liberation from tyranny and imperialism.
Click to expand...

Mock all you want, I don't condemn those that put everything on the line to protect their sovereignty against Western invaders. I have much respect for them and their cause unlike the Kiev scum who roll over like dogs to suck at the tit of the West, willingly giving up their sovereignty in the process.


----------



## Stratford57

PK1 said:


> Wow, what generic *bullshit*. Your response is not reflective of a USA citizen, or even an experienced Russian diplomat or spy.
> It's obvious to me that you are probably  in Russia (Leningrad/St.P?) trolling Kremlin propaganda along with Stratford & friends.
> 
> However, I have to admit that the Kremlin propaganda in this forum is very good overall, but not as effective as RT.
> 
> Regarding this thread's *MH-17 topic*, the Kremlin's game has weakened significantly because of its veto on the UN proposal for a criminal tribunal.
> If Kremlin & its Donbas warriors are innocent, they would love to have such a tribunal, and the Russian people agree. Putin showed his cowardice for all to see ... to buy time before his guilt becomes more evident?
> 
> Regarding the *Donbas war*, it's very simple. Uninvited Russian citizens don't belong in the Ukraine. Get the fuck out!



I've noticed: it's pretty common that the people who refuse to face the truth about situation in Ukraine, call all their opponents "Kremlin propaganda trolls" regardless of the country they reside. Tehon, welcome to the club of "Russian agents" from Russia, Ukraine, Germany, Canada, etc. Now American citizen has joined our company according to PK1. Poor clown has forgotten to mention another agent of the Kremlin (according to Ukraine): Donald Trump!
Ukraine says Donald Trump is a Kremlin agent 

Well done, Mr. Putin, what a huge network of your agents you've created all over the world!


----------



## ESay

Tehon said:


> Mock all you want, I don't condemn those that put everything on the line to protect their sovereignty against Western invaders. I have much respect for them and their cause unlike the Kiev scum who roll over like dogs to suck at the tit of the West, willingly giving up their sovereignty in the process.



I completely agree with you, but in Ukraine there are people – the victims of Western propaganda – who believe that the sovereignty must be defended from Eastern invaders too, and that those scum who are ready to roll over like dogs to suck at the tit of the East, giving up their sovereignty to Russian rulers and oligarchs, are not worth respect. And I don’t know how to change their mind.


----------



## PK1

Tehon said:


> PK1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> Wow, what generic *bullshit*. Your response is not reflective of a USA citizen, or even an experienced Russian diplomat or spy.
> It's obvious to me that you are probably  in Russia (Leningrad/St.P?) trolling Kremlin propaganda along with Stratford & friends.
> 
> 
> 
> My response was generic but not typical of an American?
> Then you take the amazing leap of comparing me to Russian diplomat or spy!
> 
> about your opinion, you're an idiot
Click to expand...


---
Go ahead and dig a deeper hole, pretending you're "American".
Your response to ESay was generic *and* not typical of one who was raised in the USA.
Your follow-up response cemented your Putin style fakery, or was that an attempt at comedy?
Learning "American" English in a foreign school will allow you to converse appropriately maybe 95% of what's "normal" for a target population, but unless you live there & absorb the nuances, you're a standout as an outsider.
Nice try, though.


----------



## PK1

Stratford57 said:


> PK1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, what generic *bullshit*. Your response is not reflective of a USA citizen, or even an experienced Russian diplomat or spy.
> It's obvious to me that you are probably  in Russia (Leningrad/St.P?) trolling Kremlin propaganda along with Stratford & friends.
> 
> However, I have to admit that the Kremlin propaganda in this forum is very good overall, but not as effective as RT.
> 
> Regarding this thread's *MH-17 topic*, the Kremlin's game has weakened significantly because of its veto on the UN proposal for a criminal tribunal.
> If Kremlin & its Donbas warriors are innocent, they would love to have such a tribunal, and the Russian people agree. Putin showed his cowardice for all to see ... to buy time before his guilt becomes more evident?
> 
> Regarding the *Donbas war*, it's very simple. Uninvited Russian citizens don't belong in the Ukraine. Get the fuck out!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've noticed: it's pretty common that the people who refuse to face the truth about situation in Ukraine, call all their opponents "Kremlin propaganda trolls" regardless of the country they reside. Tehon, welcome to the club of "Russian agents" from Russia, Ukraine, Germany, Canada, etc. Now American citizen has joined our company according to PK1. Poor clown has forgotten to mention another agent of the Kremlin (according to Ukraine): Donald Trump!
> Ukraine says Donald Trump is a Kremlin agent
> 
> Well done, Mr. Putin, what a huge network of your agents you've created all over the world!
Click to expand...


---
Yes, Жopa Putin has done a great job resurrecting his former KGB org with his friend Bortnikov (FSB).

Our rich Trump boy nationalist may fraternize with your rich Жopa boy fascist/nationalist, so it's understandable why Ukrainians are concerned by that.
It's not any different than Russian nationalists (esp Kremlin whores) being concerned about Ukraine joining EU and adding English as an official language ahead of Russian ... then seeing how the Ukrainian economy improves in 10 years, like in Poland.


----------



## Tehon

PK1 said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PK1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> Wow, what generic *bullshit*. Your response is not reflective of a USA citizen, or even an experienced Russian diplomat or spy.
> It's obvious to me that you are probably  in Russia (Leningrad/St.P?) trolling Kremlin propaganda along with Stratford & friends.
> 
> 
> 
> My response was generic but not typical of an American?
> Then you take the amazing leap of comparing me to Russian diplomat or spy!
> 
> about your opinion, you're an idiot
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ---
> Go ahead and dig a deeper hole, pretending you're "American".
> Your response to ESay was generic *and* not typical of one who was raised in the USA.
> Your follow-up response cemented your Putin style fakery, or was that an attempt at comedy?
> Learning "American" English in a foreign school will allow you to converse appropriately maybe 95% of what's "normal" for a target population, but unless you live there & absorb the nuances, you're a standout as an outsider.
> Nice try, though.
Click to expand...

Whatever


----------



## Stratford57

PK1 said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PK1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> Wow, what generic *bullshit*. Your response is not reflective of a USA citizen, or even an experienced Russian diplomat or spy.
> It's obvious to me that you are probably  in Russia (Leningrad/St.P?) trolling Kremlin propaganda along with Stratford & friends.
> 
> 
> 
> My response was generic but not typical of an American?
> Then you take the amazing leap of comparing me to Russian diplomat or spy!
> 
> about your opinion, you're an idiot
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ---
> Go ahead and dig a deeper hole, pretending you're "American".
> Your response to ESay was generic *and* not typical of one who was raised in the USA.
> Your follow-up response cemented your Putin style fakery, or was that an attempt at comedy?
> Learning "American" English in a foreign school will allow you to converse appropriately maybe 95% of what's "normal" for a target population, but unless you live there & absorb the nuances, you're a standout as an outsider.
> Nice try, though.
Click to expand...


----------



## PK1

-


Stratford57 said:


> PK1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PK1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> Wow, what generic *bullshit*. Your response is not reflective of a USA citizen, or even an experienced Russian diplomat or spy.
> It's obvious to me that you are probably  in Russia (Leningrad/St.P?) trolling Kremlin propaganda along with Stratford & friends.
> 
> 
> 
> My response was generic but not typical of an American?
> Then you take the amazing leap of comparing me to Russian diplomat or spy!
> 
> about your opinion, you're an idiot
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ---
> Go ahead and dig a deeper hole, pretending you're "American".
> Your response to ESay was generic *and* not typical of one who was raised in the USA.
> Your follow-up response cemented your Putin style fakery, or was that an attempt at comedy?
> Learning "American" English in a foreign school will allow you to converse appropriately maybe 95% of what's "normal" for a target population, but unless you live there & absorb the nuances, you're a standout as an outsider.
> Nice try, though.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> View attachment 47552
Click to expand...


---
That's the best you can do?
In the USA, that kind of response signifies a loser, like knocking over a king piece in a chess game.
Perhaps in Russia, that response reflects "bravado".


----------



## Tehon

PK1 said:


> -
> 
> 
> Stratford57 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PK1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PK1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> Wow, what generic *bullshit*. Your response is not reflective of a USA citizen, or even an experienced Russian diplomat or spy.
> It's obvious to me that you are probably  in Russia (Leningrad/St.P?) trolling Kremlin propaganda along with Stratford & friends.
> 
> 
> 
> My response was generic but not typical of an American?
> Then you take the amazing leap of comparing me to Russian diplomat or spy!
> 
> about your opinion, you're an idiot
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ---
> Go ahead and dig a deeper hole, pretending you're "American".
> Your response to ESay was generic *and* not typical of one who was raised in the USA.
> Your follow-up response cemented your Putin style fakery, or was that an attempt at comedy?
> Learning "American" English in a foreign school will allow you to converse appropriately maybe 95% of what's "normal" for a target population, but unless you live there & absorb the nuances, you're a standout as an outsider.
> Nice try, though.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> View attachment 47552
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ---
> That's the best you can do?
> In the USA, that kind of response signifies a loser, like knocking over a king piece in a chess game.
> Perhaps in Russia, that response reflects "bravado".
Click to expand...


----------



## ESay

As far as I can understand, we have finished discussing the nasty fascist junta and democracy in contemporary Ukraine. Now everyone is convinced that this miserable junta is guilty for every crime we can only imagine. Thank you, guys, you are sowing tirelessly the seeds of enlightenment in our brainwashed heads.

Special thanks to you, our faithful sister with a doggy avatar. I admire your courage, because you living in the lands seized by junta are trying to write here the truth about the junta’s atrocities in spite of possible repression. When I imagine you sitting deep in a basement, behind a thick metal door, and waiting a possible knock at the door, I can’t help but pray for your safety. Be careful, our courage sister, the nasty junta will do everything it can to shut the mouths telling the truth.


And now some additional information about the Boeing. Look what a Malaysian official claimed under the pressure of the American imperialists.

_Malaysia will consider the creation of an international court in order to punish the perpetrators of the tragedy. 

The Malaysian Minister of Transport said “After the UN Security Council refused to support the idea about an international tribunal, we are going to consider the plan B”.

According to him, it means ‘the creation of an international court or handing this case to the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court”._

Here is a link (in Russian)
 - - click


----------



## Stratford57

ESay said:


> Russia is virtually supporting the fascist junta.



Putin is supporting Kiev fascist junta for what reason? To have constant fire, instability and danger right next to his borders? Don't you think it’s insane and absolutely non-logical? Putin has proved through the years: his logic has been better  than that.  Whoever wants you to believe Putin supports Kiev junta doesn’t have a very high opinion about your IQ.

Kiev junta is a great instrument in the hands of those who want to weaken Russia. Think: who is currently controlling that junta and you'll find the answer whom  those hands belong to.


----------



## ESay

Stratford57 said:


> Putin is supporting Kiev fascist junta for what reason? To have constant fire, instability and danger right next to his borders? Don't you think it’s insane and absolutely non-logical?



I completely agree with you, our fearless sister. But my acquaintances who read this forum from time to time claim that exactly this conclusion come to the mind when one is summarising all written by you, my friends, here.

They are even trying to prove their stance with some silly reasoning. It is what they claim:
Look, Russia gives Ukraine the discount on gas. Right? Right. Why is it doing so?

And I always give them such an answer: You are stupid bastards, because the Great Russian rulers are trying to help the Ukrainian people to weather such difficult time.

After that they go on with their silly reasoning: Okay, let’s consider that it is true. But how do people now live in Ukraine? Look what is your mate with a doggy avatar writes here about all those things which are going on in Ukraine: almost all Ukrainian population are being pushed into complete misery; the utility prices have been hiked several times; the corruption is flourishing and the junta is enriching itself tremendously. Your courage sister has written about all that multiple times and we don’t have any reason not to believe her because she is a very honest person. So, the people in Ukraine live in utter misery and things are getting only worse; the junta is living in the lap of luxury; the discounts are still in place. Who receives the benefits, then? Common people? You must be kidding. The junta? Exactly! But the discounts are still in place. So, what the conclusion does come to the mind? That the Russia is supporting the fascist junta. 

And the only answer I am able to come up with is ‘You are stupid Ukro-patriots, you don’t understand anything, idiots’.



Stratford57 said:


> Putin has proved through the years: his logic has been better than that.



You are completely right. The last years have proved it overwhelmingly. Thanks to our beloved Putin, in the course of the last fifteen years Russia is steadily rising from its knees. And look what has been happening from the beginning of 2014! No, it is not rising from the knees. No, no, it is much greater. It is something like a jump to the outer space. From a trampoline.




Stratford57 said:


> Whoever wants you to believe Putin supports Kiev junta doesn’t have a very high opinion about your IQ.



And you are right again, my sister. These stupid Ukro-patriot bastards sincerely believe that we faithful patriots of the Great Russia don’t have too high IQ.



PS Forgive for that long letter. I am very glad that you managed to write here despite all the obstacles put by the junta. Hope we will hear you again. Be careful. We are with you.


----------



## Stratford57

ESay said:


> Be careful. We are with you.


Esay, don't even dream to be with me. Yourself and the people like you (whom you called "we") wouldn't be my first choice at least for the safety reasons. Besides, I prefer bright people to deal with.


----------



## ESay

Stratford57 said:


> Esay, don't even dream to be with me.



Oh, no. Don’t say that please.
You can’t take my dreams from me and I can’t take you from my dreams.




Stratford57 said:


> Yourself and the people like you (whom you called "we") wouldn't be my first choice at least for the safety reasons.



Safety? I don’t believe you are saying that. Have you forgotten where we live? We live in the lands seized by a fascist junta. What safety are you talking about? There is no safety for no one. We are all in the gravest danger.




Stratford57 said:


> Besides, I prefer bright people to deal with.



Of course you do. It is called ‘the attraction of opposites’.


----------



## Stratford57

Sounds like you at least preferred to agree with Mark Twain. So far, it's been your only smart move.


----------



## Tehon

ESay said:


> I completely agree with you, our fearless sister. But my acquaintances who read this forum from time to time claim that exactly this conclusion come to the mind when one is summarising all written by you, my friends, here.
> 
> They are even trying to prove their stance with some silly reasoning. It is what they claim:
> Look, Russia gives Ukraine the discount on gas. Right? Right. Why is it doing so?
> 
> And I always give them such an answer: You are stupid bastards, because the Great Russian rulers are trying to help the Ukrainian people to weather such difficult time.
> 
> After that they go on with their silly reasoning: Okay, let’s consider that it is true. But how do people now live in Ukraine? Look what is your mate with a doggy avatar writes here about all those things which are going on in Ukraine: almost all Ukrainian population are being pushed into complete misery; the utility prices have been hiked several times; the corruption is flourishing and the junta is enriching itself tremendously. Your courage sister has written about all that multiple times and we don’t have any reason not to believe her because she is a very honest person. So, the people in Ukraine live in utter misery and things are getting only worse; the junta is living in the lap of luxury; the discounts are still in place. Who receives the benefits, then? Common people? You must be kidding. The junta? Exactly! But the discounts are still in place. So, what the conclusion does come to the mind? That the Russia is supporting the fascist junta.
> 
> And the only answer I am able to come up with is ‘You are stupid Ukro-patriots, you don’t understand anything, idiots’.


*Who receives the benefits, then? *
Are you really that stupid to believe the gas hikes go to the junta?
 The gas hikes have been on the condition of the Western banks for loans to Ukraine. The money goes to pay off the Ukrainian debt. Putin is helping Ukraine, probably because Ukraine can't pay a steeper price and he doesn't want to lose the revenue, possibly as a good will gesture. You should find some smarter acquaintances.


----------



## Tehon

ESay said:


> democracy in contemporary Ukraine.


----------



## ESay

Tehon said:


> Are you really that stupid to believe the gas hikes go to the junta?
> The gas hikes have been on the condition of the Western banks for loans to Ukraine. The money goes to pay off the Ukrainian debt.



Thank you, my dear friend, for the explanation. Of course, this money goes directly to American imperialists and that is why they support the junta. But my stupid acquaintances say that the junta receives something too. Of course, it is only leavings from the masters’ table, but it is enough for them. Some time ago our sister Stratford wrote here that the bastard Poroshenko had increased his fortune sevenfold in the course of the last year. I hope you don’t think he has done this honestly. So, except of the junta, Putin is also supporting the American imperialists. 



Tehon said:


> Putin is helping Ukraine, probably because Ukraine can't pay a steeper price and he doesn't want to lose the revenue, possibly as a good will gesture.



Do you know what told me my stupid acquaintances? That it is awkward that Putin thinks about the revenue and a good will gesture. The junta has been carrying out the ethnic cleansing of Russian-speakers in Eastern Ukraine, hundreds (no, I even think that thousands) have been put in jail only for disagreeing with the junta. And after that Putin is thinking about the revenue? Of course business is business, but Putin is a moral authority, so he wouldn’t do that.

Also, take a look (they go on telling me) at what your brothers have written here about the Ukrainians. They say that Russia in the course of centuries has feed Ukrainians, supported them, given only the best to them. And after that these greedy bastards have disowned Russia and are spreading lie about it everywhere they can. Putin is a very smart man and he understands that any good gesture is worth nothing for these miserable people.


----------



## Tehon

ESay said:


> Thank you, my dear friend, for the explanation. Of course, this money goes directly to American imperialists and that is why they support the junta. But my stupid acquaintances say that the junta receives something too. Of course, it is only leavings from the masters’ table, but it is enough for them. Some time ago our sister Stratford wrote here that the bastard Poroshenko had increased his fortune sevenfold in the course of the last year. I hope you don’t think he has done this honestly. So, except of the junta, Putin is also supporting the American imperialists.


Western Banks want their money back and know how to do it as they have been doing this sort of thing for many decades, I doubt that there is much in the way of crumbs left for the junta. Doesn't Poroshenko still own the chocolate factory? Doesn't Poroshenko already have billions to invest in markets. There isn't a reason to believe that Poroshenko couldn't increase his wealth without stealing from Ukraine. And of course we know that Poroshenko and clan are being watched very closely by the puppets of the Western banks.


ESay said:


> Do you know what told me my stupid acquaintances? That it is awkward that Putin thinks about the revenue and a good will gesture. The junta has been carrying out the ethnic cleansing of Russian-speakers in Eastern Ukraine, hundreds (no, I even think that thousands) have been put in jail only for disagreeing with the junta. And after that Putin is thinking about the revenue? Of course business is business, but Putin is a moral authority, so he wouldn’t do that.
> 
> Also, take a look (they go on telling me) at what your brothers have written here about the Ukrainians. They say that Russia in the course of centuries has feed Ukrainians, supported them, given only the best to them. And after that these greedy bastards have disowned Russia and are spreading lie about it everywhere they can. Putin is a very smart man and he understands that any good gesture is worth nothing for these miserable people.


And do you or your stupid acquaintances think Putin would put Ukrainian people before his very own, no matter how moral he is. Do you dummies not think Putin has his own debt obligations that he and his people must meet. Are you dummies incapable of understanding that Putin is limited in choices because of Western pressures.


----------



## Stratford57

Tehon said:


> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you, my dear friend, for the explanation. Of course, this money goes directly to American imperialists and that is why they support the junta. But my stupid acquaintances say that the junta receives something too. Of course, it is only leavings from the masters’ table, but it is enough for them. Some time ago our sister Stratford wrote here that the bastard Poroshenko had increased his fortune sevenfold in the course of the last year. I hope you don’t think he has done this honestly. So, except of the junta, Putin is also supporting the American imperialists.
> 
> 
> 
> Western Banks want their money back and know how to do it as they have been doing this sort of thing for many decades, I doubt that there is much in the way of crumbs left for the junta. Doesn't Poroshenko still own the chocolate factory? Doesn't Poroshenko already have billions to invest in markets. There isn't a reason to believe that Poroshenko couldn't increase his wealth without stealing from Ukraine.
Click to expand...


Poroshenko's  Roshen chocolate factory knows many ways how to make money. They steal money not only from Ukraine. (BTW, Poroshenko violates Ukrainian constitution, having his chocolate business, but Ukraine is so democratic, that Western world prefers not to to notice that little detail).

A British architect has filed legal papers in Ukraine accusing a chocolate company belonging to Petro Poroshenko, the country’s billionaire president, of stealing building designs.
Philip Hudson, of the firm D’Estate, also alleged that an executive of Roshen had told him that the company believed in “mafia management methods” and had intimidated D’Estate’s director, prompting her to resign, to prevent the case from going to court.

British architect sues president s chocolate empire The Times


----------



## Sbiker

ESay said:


> They say that Russia in the course of centuries has feed Ukrainians, supported them, given only the best to them.



Relax, there is no Ukraine in history, till the XIX century


----------



## Sonc

ESay said:


> I hope you don’t think he has done this honestly. So, except of the junta, Putin is also supporting the American imperialists


I understand that your attempts to talk seriously suffered a complete failure.
And now you're playing the clown. as though everything is fine.
But are you saying more and more stupid things.
You can not not know that Gazprom canceled the discounts for Naftogaz after Maidan.

Raises many serious questions.
Why 20 years Ukrainians choose (at elections) morons?

If the Ukrainian people knew about the scale of theft ... how would you like to join the EU?

In 2006, the discount was about ~ 70%
This is a very serious help. There was a real plan (may be we do not know) to compensate for the difference after the entry into the European Union?

And so war is the only solution to Poroshenko. Only in this way can be blamed on someone else. Because obviously Ukraine, as the country has ceased to exist.
The standard of living in Ukraine is falling and no one said a plan to solve the situation.


----------



## Sonc

Instead of solutions the Ukrainians offered ridiculous propaganda.
>>>RUS

Who defends in Debaltsevо
Here are collected the most combat ready compounds of our army.
....
One company of the brigade, 80 paratroopers, was in the Crimea in the exercises at the beginning of the occupation. *This company - the only union, has withdrawn from the peninsula on its technique and weapons.*
...
Formed from volunteers Maidana, who *after three weeks of training headed to the front*. From the first days of the war, the soldiers covered themselves with glory.


----------



## Sbiker

Sonc said:


> Instead of solutions the Ukrainians offered ridiculous propaganda.
> >>>RUS
> 
> Who defends in Debaltsevо
> Here are collected the most combat ready compounds of our army.
> ....
> One company of the brigade, 80 paratroopers, was in the Crimea in the exercises at the beginning of the occupation. *This company - the only union, has withdrawn from the peninsula on its technique and weapons.*
> ...
> Formed from volunteers Maidana, who *after three weeks of training headed to the front*. From the first days of the war, the soldiers covered themselves with glory.



And they don't look like regular army forces:







It seems, there are no regular armies on the both sides of conflict. Just a fight of eastern volunteers with western nazi with full inability of current Ukrainian administration and army to stop this chaos.


----------



## PK1

Stratford57 said:


> View attachment 47718


 
---
That Twain quote is priceless!
I'm sure it's posted on the walls of RT news rooms, and in offices on Madison Av & Wall St, as well as in St. Petersburg's troll factory, aka *FSB's Internet Research Agency* (or Веб-бригады).
 
  .


----------



## ESay

Tehon said:


> Doesn't Poroshenko still own the chocolate factory? Doesn't Poroshenko already have billions to invest in markets. There isn't a reason to believe that Poroshenko couldn't increase his wealth without stealing from Ukraine.



No, I don’t think that you are right in this case, bro. Poroshenko has been and always will be a theft. Look what our faithful sister wrote below. And you think that such a person will change himself and stop stealing? I have great doubts about it, bro.



Tehon said:


> And do you or your stupid acquaintances think Putin would put Ukrainian people before his very own, no matter how moral he is. Do you dummies not think Putin has his own debt obligations that he and his people must meet. Are you dummies incapable of understanding that Putin is limited in choices because of Western pressures.



Wait, wait. What are you trying to say? You are saying that the fascist junta is helping Putin and his people pay their debts?




Sbiker said:


> Relax, there is no Ukraine in history, till the XIX century



So, 19th century, 20th century, the first twenty years of 21st century. Then I said it correctly – in the course of centuries.




Sonc said:


> You can not not know that Gazprom canceled the discounts for Naftogaz after Maidan.



Do I understand you correctly, bro, that in 2014 and 2015 there were no discounts?




Sonc said:


> In 2006, the discount was about ~ 70%



2006? Okay, in 2004 there were so-called Orange Revolution, Yushchenko was the president at that time. So, Russia has been supporting the American puppets since then? 



Sonc said:


> This is a very serious help. There was a real plan (may be we do not know) to compensate for the difference after the entry into the European Union?



What are the problems? Russia can apply to an international court about the compensation.


----------



## Sonc

ESay said:


> So, Russia has been supporting the American puppets since then?


Gazprom gives Ukraine a discount.
The question is "why these prices have not been used to develop the economy" ...  has already to you like the Ukrainians.



> What are the problems? Russia can apply to an international court about the compensation.


You are very funny.
I do not think that Russia will demand compensation.
Because from the beginning it offered a discount, but it is not issued as a credit (legally).

Such kindness is an occasion for irony and jokes =)
Well ... my dear ... Russia is a barbaric country populated by stupid Ivanov, who are not literate.
But you do have a loyal ally - Europe.
They are civilized and literate. They are formed in legal matters.
Your European friends give you help ... by N% a year =)

And your children will be slaves to the IMF.
*What are the problems?*

Why 25 years of independence, Ukraine is such a wonderful country ... are in such a huge ass ...
Who is guilty? Yeltsin? Putin? stars?

Or maybe... maybe...  all the way as it should be? And Ukraine has finally found its true place in the world?

*



*


----------



## Tehon

ESay said:


> No, I don’t think that you are right in this case, bro. Poroshenko has been and always will be a theft. Look what our faithful sister wrote below. And you think that such a person will change himself and stop stealing? I have great doubts about it, bro.


I'm curious to know if you voted for Poroshenko.

Point taken on Poroshenko being a thief but your point was that he was enriching himself off of Russian gas. You said Putin was supporting and enriching the junta. My point was and still is that you are full of shit. Poroshenko is not in control of the finances of Ukraine. Western banks lent money to Ukraine under very strict conditions. You are aware who the Ukrainian finance minister is no doubt. Is this not a significant point? Does it not hint at who is in control of Ukrainian finances?


ESay said:


> Wait, wait. What are you trying to say? You are saying that the fascist junta is helping Putin and his people pay their debts?


I think Russian oil and gas accounts for roughly 50% of it's federal budget revenue. If the price of oil hadn't dropped then perhaps Putin would have been able to handle this situation differently but things are what they are.


----------



## Stratford57

Yes, Tehon, a former US State Department employee controls ALL the money within Ukraine, and we are writing pages after pages about Putin.
Natalie Jaresko - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Meanwhile I've found a few interesting links about so called investigation of MH-17 tragedy:

*ORIENTAL REVIEW publishes an Open Letter to President Putin by  Dutch Professor Cees J. Hamelink on the furious 3-weeks-long international media campaign blaming Russia in the tragedy of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 over Ukraine on July 17, 2014. Today when the perpetrators are clearly determined (a Ukrainian air wing supported by air-defence on the ground, as it was recently acknowledged by the mainstream ruling party-affiliated press in Malaysia), the governments of Netherlands, UK and Ukraine are trying to conceal the results of investigation. So now it is critically important not to let them silence the issue. We should demand a transparent investigation and bring the perpetrators (Western-backed criminal regime in Kiev) to justice.
Dutch Professor apologizing for MH17 tragedy media coverage in the Netherlands

MH17 report not released because it proves that Russia is clean

US Intelligence on Malaysian Flight MH17: Russia Didn’t Do It. "US Satellite Photos do not Support Obama’s Lies"

The U.S. government   
"knows a lot more" than it's letting on about the Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 crash and is "likely hiding [the] truth,"according to former Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas).

Ron Paul Says U.S. 'Likely Hiding Truth' About MH17 Crash*

According to Russian foreign minister Sergey Lavrov, the investigation has turned out to be neither "international," nor "independent." 

Russia's Struggle for MH17 Crash Justice 'Stonewalled'  – Lavrov / Sputnik International


----------



## Sbiker

Stratford57 said:


> Yes, Tehon, a former US State Department employee controls ALL the money within Ukraine, and we are writing pages after pages about Putin.
> Natalie Jaresko - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Meanwhile I've found a few interesting links about so called investigation of MH-17 tragedy:
> 
> *ORIENTAL REVIEW publishes an Open Letter to President Putin by  Dutch Professor Cees J. Hamelink on the furious 3-weeks-long international media campaign blaming Russia in the tragedy of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 over Ukraine on July 17, 2014. Today when the perpetrators are clearly determined (a Ukrainian air wing supported by air-defence on the ground, as it was recently acknowledged by the mainstream ruling party-affiliated press in Malaysia), the governments of Netherlands, UK and Ukraine are trying to conceal the results of investigation. So now it is critically important not to let them silence the issue. We should demand a transparent investigation and bring the perpetrators (Western-backed criminal regime in Kiev) to justice.
> Dutch Professor apologizing for MH17 tragedy media coverage in the Netherlands
> 
> MH17 report not released because it proves that Russia is clean
> 
> US Intelligence on Malaysian Flight MH17: Russia Didn’t Do It. "US Satellite Photos do not Support Obama’s Lies"
> 
> The U.S. government
> "knows a lot more" than it's letting on about the Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 crash and is "likely hiding [the] truth,"according to former Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas).
> 
> Ron Paul Says U.S. 'Likely Hiding Truth' About MH17 Crash*
> 
> According to Russian foreign minister Sergey Lavrov, the investigation has turned out to be neither "international," nor "independent."
> 
> Russia's Struggle for MH17 Crash Justice 'Stonewalled'  – Lavrov / Sputnik International



What can they do else, except of producing choked and noisy "news"? MH17 was forced down above Ukraininan territory, from Ukrainian territory and - the main fact - it was dispatched to crash point by Ukrainian dispatchers... So, it's a reason, only Ukraine completely responsible for this accident. Other case means Ukraine is not responsible for territories of strike and crash - and all operation, called 'ATO', de facto, is continuous unlawful aggression against territories, where Ukraine don't rule.


----------



## Tehon

Who is the West’s Lead MH17 Investigator? | New Eastern Outlook


> While Russia drew upon its intelligence community and military assets to acquire and analyze information regarding the MH17 tragedy, the United States and NATO, despite their immense resources have turned instead to literally the most unqualified individual within their borders to lead its own unofficial "investigation."  Since the US and NATO have clearly decided to try Russia in the court of public opinion, it is only suitable that the investigation unfolds there as well.





> *Meet Detective Couch Potato *
> Leading American and NATO efforts to manage public perception regarding MH17 is professional couch-potato Eliot Higgins. Previously a laid-off government worker living in the United Kingdom, Higgins began blogging from home under the pen name "Brown Moses."





> It was his association there and an apparent financial arrangement was struck alleviating his unemployment and causing Higgins to cash in his objectivity to use his somewhat unique brand of citizen journalism as a sort of trojan horse. The established media of the US, UK and much of Europe has consistently betrayed and subsequently lost the trust of the public. By cultivating "alternative journalists" to repeat mainstream lies disguised as alternative commentary, it is hoped that lost ground in manipulating the general public can be gained back.






> Despite Higgins' complete lack of forensic, military, geopolitical and academic background he is endlessly deferred to and given column space throughout the largest Western papers, magazines and online journals.


----------



## Stratford57

Tehon said:


> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> democracy in contemporary Ukraine.
Click to expand...


Let's see what German journalists think about democracy in Ukraine:

"Attacks on activists, not taken up investigations and civil servants, the luxury car ride: Despite pithy battle cries blooming corruption and nepotism in Ukraine continues - with fatal consequences.

Anti-corruption in Ukraine are fighting a losing battle: laws are passed, the government and media preach their implementation.For more than a year themes dominate as the fight against corruption and lustration - ie the removal of contaminated employees from public office - the public debate.But has changed so far: nothing.Journalists and activists  always reveal new cases of corruption and being beaten and threatened it.

The NGO "Reanimation reform package" writes in its recent opinion: "The new Ukrainelooks in many ways the same as under President Yanukovych. "The report of civil rights is an indictment of the government of President Petro Poroshenko and Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk.Had they but taken up the cause to fight corruption and nepotism and to free items in administrative and judicial capacity of the old cadres.

While in Kiev regularly public appeal senior officials are arrested, their homes searched and tons of luxury goods such as diamonds, gold bullion, precious jewelry and lots of dollar bills found, but such actions are rather the publicity.

Also located in the west of Kiev region Zhytomyr civil rights were attacked, reported as media of corruption cases.Alexander Nikolaitschuk has made the illegal amber mining on.The raw material is mined without authorization and smuggled untaxed across the border.This leaves the destroyed nature, because the degradation occurs with deforestation and the use of chemicals.The authorities are aware of the problem, but do nothing."

Korruption in der Ukraine: Die ungebrochene Macht in den Hinterzimmern


----------



## ESay

Tehon said:


> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, I don’t think that you are right in this case, bro. Poroshenko has been and always will be a theft. Look what our faithful sister wrote below. And you think that such a person will change himself and stop stealing? I have great doubts about it, bro.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm curious to know if you voted for Poroshenko.
> 
> Point taken on Poroshenko being a thief but your point was that he was enriching himself off of Russian gas. You said Putin was supporting and enriching the junta. My point was and still is that you are full of shit. Poroshenko is not in control of the finances of Ukraine. Western banks lent money to Ukraine under very strict conditions. You are aware who the Ukrainian finance minister is no doubt. Is this not a significant point? Does it not hint at who is in control of Ukrainian finances?
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wait, wait. What are you trying to say? You are saying that the fascist junta is helping Putin and his people pay their debts?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think Russian oil and gas accounts for roughly 50% of it's federal budget revenue. If the price of oil hadn't dropped then perhaps Putin would have been able to handle this situation differently but things are what they are.
Click to expand...



Okay, okay, bro, don’t worry. You have convinced me that it is not Putin supports the junta, but it is the junta supports Putin. But you have said nothing about Putin’s support of American imperialists, then it means that you have agreed with me.

So, what we have in conclusion. Putin is selling the gas with a discount to a fascist junta in order to have some money because it is a tough time for Russia and he doesn’t have much choice. But the junta is sending this money directly to the American imperialists who put them in their pockets and send some amount of the money back to the junta in the form of credits.

Wow. It is a damn good combination for Russia. It clearly shows that our beloved Putin is a perfect strategist. Let all spiteful critics choke due to powerless rage! Viva Putin!

PS No, I didn’t.


----------



## Sbiker

ESay said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, I don’t think that you are right in this case, bro. Poroshenko has been and always will be a theft. Look what our faithful sister wrote below. And you think that such a person will change himself and stop stealing? I have great doubts about it, bro.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm curious to know if you voted for Poroshenko.
> 
> Point taken on Poroshenko being a thief but your point was that he was enriching himself off of Russian gas. You said Putin was supporting and enriching the junta. My point was and still is that you are full of shit. Poroshenko is not in control of the finances of Ukraine. Western banks lent money to Ukraine under very strict conditions. You are aware who the Ukrainian finance minister is no doubt. Is this not a significant point? Does it not hint at who is in control of Ukrainian finances?
> 
> 
> ESay said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wait, wait. What are you trying to say? You are saying that the fascist junta is helping Putin and his people pay their debts?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think Russian oil and gas accounts for roughly 50% of it's federal budget revenue. If the price of oil hadn't dropped then perhaps Putin would have been able to handle this situation differently but things are what they are.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, okay, bro, don’t worry. You have convinced me that it is not Putin supports the junta, but it is the junta supports Putin. But you have said nothing about Putin’s support of American imperialists, then it means that you have agreed with me.
> 
> So, what we have in conclusion. Putin is selling the gas with a discount to a fascist junta in order to have some money because it is a tough time for Russia and he doesn’t have much choice. But the junta is sending this money directly to the American imperialists who put them in their pockets and send some amount of the money back to the junta in the form of credits.
> 
> Wow. It is a damn good combination for Russia. It clearly shows that our beloved Putin is a perfect strategist. Let all spiteful critics choke due to powerless rage! Viva Putin!
> 
> PS No, I didn’t.
Click to expand...


What is personally YOUR benefit from this talks? Or you're just ordinal hater?


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## PK1

Stratford57 said:


> Yes, Tehon, a former US State Department employee controls ALL the money within Ukraine, and we are writing pages after pages about Putin.
> Natalie Jaresko - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Meanwhile I've found a few interesting links about so called investigation of MH-17 tragedy:
> 
> *ORIENTAL REVIEW publishes an Open Letter to President Putin by  Dutch Professor Cees J. Hamelink on the furious 3-weeks-long international media campaign blaming Russia in the tragedy of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 over Ukraine on July 17, 2014. Today when the perpetrators are clearly determined (a Ukrainian air wing supported by air-defence on the ground, as it was recently acknowledged by the mainstream ruling party-affiliated press in Malaysia), the governments of Netherlands, UK and Ukraine are trying to conceal the results of investigation. So now it is critically important not to let them silence the issue. We should demand a transparent investigation and bring the perpetrators (Western-backed criminal regime in Kiev) to justice.
> Dutch Professor apologizing for MH17 tragedy media coverage in the Netherlands
> 
> MH17 report not released because it proves that Russia is clean
> 
> US Intelligence on Malaysian Flight MH17: Russia Didn’t Do It. "US Satellite Photos do not Support Obama’s Lies"
> 
> The U.S. government
> "knows a lot more" than it's letting on about the Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 crash and is "likely hiding [the] truth,"according to former Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas).
> 
> Ron Paul Says U.S. 'Likely Hiding Truth' About MH17 Crash*
> 
> According to Russian foreign minister Sergey Lavrov, the investigation has turned out to be neither "international," nor "independent."
> 
> Russia's Struggle for MH17 Crash Justice 'Stonewalled'  – Lavrov / Sputnik International



---
Yes, indeed, your full-time staff of Kremlin's FSB trollers are very convincing!
All the mainstream Western press are stooges of US capitalism, and Ukraine is just a puppet like Poland. Right!

However, i'm wondering, if the MH17 disaster was Ukraine's fault, assisted by USA, then *why did your master/employer Putin veto the UN resolution for a criminal tribunal?*
Is papa Putin working for the USA and helping the crooks in Kiev?


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## Tehon

ESay said:


> Okay, okay, bro, don’t worry. You have convinced me that it is not Putin supports the junta, but it is the junta supports Putin. But you have said nothing about Putin’s support of American imperialists, then it means that you have agreed with me.
> 
> So, what we have in conclusion. Putin is selling the gas with a discount to a fascist junta in order to have some money because it is a tough time for Russia and he doesn’t have much choice. But the junta is sending this money directly to the American imperialists who put them in their pockets and send some amount of the money back to the junta in the form of credits.
> 
> Wow. It is a damn good combination for Russia. It clearly shows that our beloved Putin is a perfect strategist. Let all spiteful critics choke due to powerless rage! Viva Putin!
> 
> PS No, I didn’t.


What we have in conclusion is Washington using Ukraine as a pawn in their war on Russia. When/if Ukraine loses its usefulness it will be left to suffer the fate of Greece.

 If your ignorance is the least bit representative of Ukrainians in Kiev it is easy to see why your country finds itself in its current predicament, incapable of managing its finances and governing its entire population. Good luck with that Western intervention, you're probably going to need it.


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## Sonc

All this is very sad...


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## Stratford57

Tehon said:


> What we have in conclusion is Washington using Ukraine as a pawn in their war on Russia. When/if Ukraine loses its usefulness it will be left to suffer the fate of Greece.
> 
> If your ignorance is the least bit representative of Ukrainians in Kiev it is easy to see why your country finds itself in its current predicament, incapable of managing its finances and governing its entire population. Good luck with that Western intervention, you're probably going to need it.



The fate of Greece would be a dream  for Ukraine under the circumstances: Greece is not involved into a war. I would expect it to have same the fate as Iraq, Libya, Syria...


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## PK1

Stratford57 said:


> Tehon said:
> 
> 
> 
> What we have in conclusion is Washington using Ukraine as a pawn in their war on Russia. When/if Ukraine loses its usefulness it will be left to suffer the fate of Greece.
> 
> If your ignorance is the least bit representative of Ukrainians in Kiev it is easy to see why your country finds itself in its current predicament, incapable of managing its finances and governing its entire population. Good luck with that Western intervention, you're probably going to need it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The fate of Greece would be a dream  for Ukraine under the circumstances: Greece is not involved into a war. I would expect it to have same the fate as Iraq, Libya, Syria...
Click to expand...


---
"_I would expect it to have same the fate as Iraq, Libya, Syria.._."  ...
Thanks to Жopa Putin.

When I traveled to Europe and Russia, I witnessed & admired the lifestyles in the European countries much more than in Russia. Why? *Freedom & economy*, esp in central Europe & Scandinavia.
No wonder Ukraine wants to break away from the Kremlin and join EU!
.


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## Sonc

PK1 said:


> When I traveled to Europe and Russia, I witnessed & admired the lifestyles in the European countries much more than in Russia. Why? *Freedom & economy*, esp in central Europe & Scandinavia.
> No wonder Ukraine wants to break away from the Kremlin and join EU!


Scandinavia is very beautiful.
With regard to the travel to Russia ... you've seen the map? =)))
When my daughter grows up ... and it will be at least 10 years ... I want to go from Moscow to Magadan for pick-up =) 10 000 km
I also want to take a trip around Lake Baikal.
Russia is very big. And different cities are not resemble each other.
I doubt that you have seen at least 5% of Russia =)))
I really like Kazan.


I was born in Moscow, but to be honest I do not like. Here business, a lot of people ... I like something more quieter. Scandinavia really gorgeous in this regard. very quiet place. Good for life.





PK1 said:


> No wonder Ukraine wants to break away from the Kremlin and join EU!


The problem is that only 50% =)


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