# Just Go Away Teacher Unions!...



## LibocalypseNow

Kudos to new Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker! 

More brave Politicians need to start standing up to the corrupt Teacher Unions. The Teacher Unions have brought our Public School System to its knees. It has become all about them. It's all about getting that cash for them. They don't care about the kids anymore. They also only want to force their politics and social experimenting on the kids at this point. Their number one goal these last few decades has been to brainwash the children and create good little future adult Democrats. They stopped teaching the kids the basics of Education a long time ago. 

Teacher Unions now only do far more harm than they do good. It's time for them to go away. The Public School System will be so much better off when they're gone. The Kids could actually start learning again. American kids continue to fall further & further behind other far less developed and less wealthy nations. I do blame the Teacher Unions for this. They have become too obsessed with the cash and creating good little future adult Democrats. They have lost their way. Get rid of the Teacher Unions and our Public School System might just be salvaged.


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## bodecea

LibocalypseNow said:


> Kudos to new Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker!
> 
> More brave Politicians need to start standing up to the corrupt Teacher Unions. The Teacher Unions have brought our Public School System to its knees. It has become all about them. It's all about getting that cash for them. They don't care about the kids anymore. They also only want to force their politics and social experimenting on the kids at this point. Their number one goal these last few decades has been to brainwash the children and create good little future adult Democrats. They stopped teaching the kids the basics of Education a long time ago.
> 
> Teacher Unions now only do far more harm than they do good. It's time for them to go away. The Public School System will be so much better off when they're gone. The Kids could actually start learning again. American kids continue to fall further & further behind other far less developed and less wealthy nations. I do blame the Teacher Unions for this. They have become too obsessed with the cash and creating good little future adult Democrats. They have lost their way. Get rid of the Teacher Unions and our Public School System might just be able to be salvaged.



How much time have YOU spend in the classroom Libo?


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## xsited1

LibocalypseNow said:


> Kudos to new Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker!
> 
> More brave Politicians need to start standing up to the corrupt Teacher Unions. The Teacher Unions have brought our Public School System to its knees. It has become all about them. It's all about getting that cash for them. They don't care about the kids anymore. They also only want to force their politics and social experimenting on the kids at this point. Their number one goal these last few decades has been to brainwash the children and create good little future adult Democrats. They stopped teaching the kids the basics of Education a long time ago.
> 
> Teacher Unions now only do far more harm than they do good. It's time for them to go away. The Public School System will be so much better off when they're gone. The Kids could actually start learning again. American kids continue to fall further & further behind other far less developed and less wealthy nations. I do blame the Teacher Unions for this. They have become too obsessed with the cash and creating good little future adult Democrats. They have lost their way. Get rid of the Teacher Unions and our Public School System might just be able to be salvaged.



I know dozens of private school teachers and none of them are in a union.  I wonder why they are necessary in public schools.  Anyone know?


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## WillowTree

bodecea said:


> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kudos to new Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker!
> 
> More brave Politicians need to start standing up to the corrupt Teacher Unions. The Teacher Unions have brought our Public School System to its knees. It has become all about them. It's all about getting that cash for them. They don't care about the kids anymore. They also only want to force their politics and social experimenting on the kids at this point. Their number one goal these last few decades has been to brainwash the children and create good little future adult Democrats. They stopped teaching the kids the basics of Education a long time ago.
> 
> Teacher Unions now only do far more harm than they do good. It's time for them to go away. The Public School System will be so much better off when they're gone. The Kids could actually start learning again. American kids continue to fall further & further behind other far less developed and less wealthy nations. I do blame the Teacher Unions for this. They have become too obsessed with the cash and creating good little future adult Democrats. They have lost their way. Get rid of the Teacher Unions and our Public School System might just be able to be salvaged.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How much time have YOU spend in the classroom Libo?
Click to expand...


Didn't you mean "spent"? I don't think "spend" goes well in this sentence.


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## WillowTree

xsited1 said:


> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kudos to new Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker!
> 
> More brave Politicians need to start standing up to the corrupt Teacher Unions. The Teacher Unions have brought our Public School System to its knees. It has become all about them. It's all about getting that cash for them. They don't care about the kids anymore. They also only want to force their politics and social experimenting on the kids at this point. Their number one goal these last few decades has been to brainwash the children and create good little future adult Democrats. They stopped teaching the kids the basics of Education a long time ago.
> 
> Teacher Unions now only do far more harm than they do good. It's time for them to go away. The Public School System will be so much better off when they're gone. The Kids could actually start learning again. American kids continue to fall further & further behind other far less developed and less wealthy nations. I do blame the Teacher Unions for this. They have become too obsessed with the cash and creating good little future adult Democrats. They have lost their way. Get rid of the Teacher Unions and our Public School System might just be able to be salvaged.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know dozens of private school teachers and none of them are in a union.  I wonder why they are necessary in public schools.  Anyone know?
Click to expand...


to suck money


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## LibocalypseNow

The Teacher Unions are the root cause of most of the problems in our Public School System. Too much greed & politics coming from them at this point. They have lost their way. They have neglected the kids for too many years. It's all about them now. Just get more cash and get more Democrats elected. That's all the Teacher Unions are good for these days. They do nothing for the kids anymore. If the Public Schools dropped them,i guarantee things would immediately improve. The kids don't need all this political activism and greed. That stuff never had a place in our Schools. It's actually pretty depressing observing what the Teacher Unions have done to our Public Schools. It really is time for them to just go away.


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## JamesInFlorida

WillowTree said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kudos to new Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker!
> 
> More brave Politicians need to start standing up to the corrupt Teacher Unions. The Teacher Unions have brought our Public School System to its knees. It has become all about them. It's all about getting that cash for them. They don't care about the kids anymore. They also only want to force their politics and social experimenting on the kids at this point. Their number one goal these last few decades has been to brainwash the children and create good little future adult Democrats. They stopped teaching the kids the basics of Education a long time ago.
> 
> Teacher Unions now only do far more harm than they do good. It's time for them to go away. The Public School System will be so much better off when they're gone. The Kids could actually start learning again. American kids continue to fall further & further behind other far less developed and less wealthy nations. I do blame the Teacher Unions for this. They have become too obsessed with the cash and creating good little future adult Democrats. They have lost their way. Get rid of the Teacher Unions and our Public School System might just be able to be salvaged.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How much time have YOU spend in the classroom Libo?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Didn't you mean "spent"? I don't think "spend" goes well in this sentence.
Click to expand...


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## bodecea

WillowTree said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kudos to new Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker!
> 
> More brave Politicians need to start standing up to the corrupt Teacher Unions. The Teacher Unions have brought our Public School System to its knees. It has become all about them. It's all about getting that cash for them. They don't care about the kids anymore. They also only want to force their politics and social experimenting on the kids at this point. Their number one goal these last few decades has been to brainwash the children and create good little future adult Democrats. They stopped teaching the kids the basics of Education a long time ago.
> 
> Teacher Unions now only do far more harm than they do good. It's time for them to go away. The Public School System will be so much better off when they're gone. The Kids could actually start learning again. American kids continue to fall further & further behind other far less developed and less wealthy nations. I do blame the Teacher Unions for this. They have become too obsessed with the cash and creating good little future adult Democrats. They have lost their way. Get rid of the Teacher Unions and our Public School System might just be able to be salvaged.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How much time have YOU spend in the classroom Libo?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Didn't you mean "spent"? I don't think "spend" goes well in this sentence.
Click to expand...



You are right.  Thank you.


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## bodecea

xsited1 said:


> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kudos to new Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker!
> 
> More brave Politicians need to start standing up to the corrupt Teacher Unions. The Teacher Unions have brought our Public School System to its knees. It has become all about them. It's all about getting that cash for them. They don't care about the kids anymore. They also only want to force their politics and social experimenting on the kids at this point. Their number one goal these last few decades has been to brainwash the children and create good little future adult Democrats. They stopped teaching the kids the basics of Education a long time ago.
> 
> Teacher Unions now only do far more harm than they do good. It's time for them to go away. The Public School System will be so much better off when they're gone. The Kids could actually start learning again. American kids continue to fall further & further behind other far less developed and less wealthy nations. I do blame the Teacher Unions for this. They have become too obsessed with the cash and creating good little future adult Democrats. They have lost their way. Get rid of the Teacher Unions and our Public School System might just be able to be salvaged.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know dozens of private school teachers and none of them are in a union.  I wonder why they are necessary in public schools.  Anyone know?
Click to expand...


Look to the average pay for private school teachers compared to public school teachers and their turnover rate.   Plus, let me point out that private schools get to pick and choose their clientele.   Public schools do not.   I have a close friend who has an ED student (emotionally disturbed) student in his class ever day...when he is not suspended for threatening other students, teachers, administrators.   He is horribly misplaced but the parents INSIST on him being in the "least restrictive environment".   So this student threatens others, makes noises in class and refuses to work.  And because this is a public school, the school, the administrators, the teachers have no choice.  Tell me a private school that would accept that.


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## LibocalypseNow

Teachers have it pretty good compared to many other occupations. Yet Teachers seem to do the most whining & complaining. They get all weekends off,several weeks of paid Holiday time off,and they get their Summers off. That just doesn't seem so horrible. Of all professions,Teachers by far do the most whining & complaining. Look around America and see how many Americans enjoy all weekends off,several weeks of paid Holiday time off,and entire Summers off. So Teachers do have it pretty good. They need to slow down on their whiny greed. It does come down to the Teacher Unions in the end. They force their members to whine & complain so much. Give em the boot and our Schools might just recover.


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## NYcarbineer

LibocalypseNow said:


> Teachers have it pretty good compared to many other occupations. Yet Teachers seem to do the most whining & complaining. They get all weekends off,several weeks of paid Holiday time off,and they get their Summers off. That just doesn't seem so horrible. Of all professions,Teachers by far do the most whining & complaining. Look around America and see how many Americans enjoy all weekends off,several weeks of paid Holiday time off,and entire Summers off. So Teachers do have it pretty good. They need to slow down on their whiny greed. It does come down to the Teacher Unions in the end. They force their members to whine & complain so much. Give em the boot and our Schools might just recover.



Teachers earn far less on average than non-teachers with the same level of education required for the job.


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## JamesInFlorida

LibocalypseNow said:


> Teachers have it pretty good compared to many other occupations. Yet Teachers seem to do the most whining & complaining. They get all weekends off,several weeks of paid Holiday time off,and they get their Summers off. That just doesn't seem so horrible. Of all professions,Teachers by far do the most whining & complaining. Look around America and see how many Americans enjoy all weekends off,several weeks of paid Holiday time off,and entire Summers off. So Teachers do have it pretty good. They need to slow down on their whiny greed. It does come down to the Teacher Unions in the end. They force their members to whine & complain so much. Give em the boot and our Schools might just recover.



1. Teacher's salaries aren't that high. Here in Florida starting is around $35Kish. 
2. Most teachers work during the summers. I know a lot of teachers-and I don't know a single one who doesn't work in the summers.
3. Most Americans get the weekends off (or at least two days off a week).

With that said I think the teachers should have some sort of a union/job security (I do agree they're currently too strong). 

What if a school's principle is implementing things that go against the school district's code? My highschool broke my district's rules every single day (not allowing late students to attend class-even if they were late by 1-2 seconds, literally). I think a teacher should be able to speak out against this practice without fear of losing their job.


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## NYcarbineer

LibocalypseNow said:


> Kudos to new Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker!
> 
> More brave Politicians need to start standing up to the corrupt Teacher Unions. The Teacher Unions have brought our Public School System to its knees. It has become all about them. It's all about getting that cash for them. They don't care about the kids anymore. They also only want to force their politics and social experimenting on the kids at this point. Their number one goal these last few decades has been to brainwash the children and create good little future adult Democrats. They stopped teaching the kids the basics of Education a long time ago.
> 
> Teacher Unions now only do far more harm than they do good. It's time for them to go away. The Public School System will be so much better off when they're gone. The Kids could actually start learning again. American kids continue to fall further & further behind other far less developed and less wealthy nations. I do blame the Teacher Unions for this. They have become too obsessed with the cash and creating good little future adult Democrats. They have lost their way. Get rid of the Teacher Unions and our Public School System might just be able to be salvaged.



What educational system are you a product of, besides talk radio?


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## Nosmo King

Ever notice how the Right Wing constantly wants to undermine working people?  Eliminate collective bargaining rights, lobby hard for a flat tax, work against workplace safety and environmental regulations.  

Conservatives also want to erode other rights.  No same sex marriage.  No burning a flag in protest.  No real science taught, only dogmatic fables.

Every struggle for equality and freedom and civil rights happens with Conservatives in opposition.  Makes me wonder what would motivate someone to think Conservatism is actually something worthy of American ideals.


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## LibocalypseNow

NYcarbineer said:


> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers have it pretty good compared to many other occupations. Yet Teachers seem to do the most whining & complaining. They get all weekends off,several weeks of paid Holiday time off,and they get their Summers off. That just doesn't seem so horrible. Of all professions,Teachers by far do the most whining & complaining. Look around America and see how many Americans enjoy all weekends off,several weeks of paid Holiday time off,and entire Summers off. So Teachers do have it pretty good. They need to slow down on their whiny greed. It does come down to the Teacher Unions in the end. They force their members to whine & complain so much. Give em the boot and our Schools might just recover.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers earn far less on average than non-teachers with the same level of education required for the job.
Click to expand...


That may be true but they receive other great benefits no other occupations have. All Weekends off,several weeks of paid Holiday Time off,and entire Summers off? That seems pretty nice to most outside observers. Look around America and see how many other Americans enjoy those kinds of benefits. The Teacher Unions are only trouble at this point. They've outlived their usefulness. They only stand for greed and political activism at this point. It's time for them to get the boot once and for all. Our kids deserve better.


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## bodecea

LibocalypseNow said:


> Teachers have it pretty good compared to many other occupations. Yet Teachers seem to do the most whining & complaining. They get all weekends off,several weeks of paid Holiday time off,and they get their Summers off. That just doesn't seem so horrible. Of all professions,Teachers by far do the most whining & complaining. Look around America and see how many Americans enjoy all weekends off,several weeks of paid Holiday time off,and entire Summers off. So Teachers do have it pretty good. They need to slow down on their whiny greed. It does come down to the Teacher Unions in the end. They force their members to whine & complain so much. Give em the boot and our Schools might just recover.



Where did you hear that teachers get paid vacations?   It is 180 days plus usually another 5 for prep.   Period.

So...tell us, how much have you been in the classroom experiencing what teachers do and how they work, Libo?


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## JamesInFlorida

LibocalypseNow said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers have it pretty good compared to many other occupations. Yet Teachers seem to do the most whining & complaining. They get all weekends off,several weeks of paid Holiday time off,and they get their Summers off. That just doesn't seem so horrible. Of all professions,Teachers by far do the most whining & complaining. Look around America and see how many Americans enjoy all weekends off,several weeks of paid Holiday time off,and entire Summers off. So Teachers do have it pretty good. They need to slow down on their whiny greed. It does come down to the Teacher Unions in the end. They force their members to whine & complain so much. Give em the boot and our Schools might just recover.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers earn far less on average than non-teachers with the same level of education required for the job.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That may be true but they receive other great benefits no other occupations have. All Weekends off,several weeks of paid Holiday Time off,and entire Summers off? That seems pretty nice to most outside observers. Look around America and see how many other Americans enjoy those kinds of benefits. The Teacher Unions are only trouble at this point. They've outlived their usefulness. They only stand for greed and political activism at this point. It's time for them to get the boot once and for all. Our kids deserve better.
Click to expand...


1. Teachers work over the weekends sometimes. Maybe not at work-but they grade papers, make lesson plans, etc.

2. Most teachers work during the summers-you didn't address this.

I think we need to pay teachers more. Because most people who're qualified more than current teachers don't want the job. Why not? Because the pay isn't there. Put the money into teacher salaries (not unions, not districts, not to build a new football field).

Any college graduate who makes less than $45K a year-is NOT in it for the money. Try again.


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## Dr.Drock

The main point of the teacher's union is money and power and a way for lawyers and lobbyists to grow their resume, the second biggest point is to protect the weakest teachers and make sure they never get fired.

The public education system is the biggest problem, the 2nd biggest problem is the teacher's union.


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## xsited1

bodecea said:


> xsited1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kudos to new Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker!
> 
> More brave Politicians need to start standing up to the corrupt Teacher Unions. The Teacher Unions have brought our Public School System to its knees. It has become all about them. It's all about getting that cash for them. They don't care about the kids anymore. They also only want to force their politics and social experimenting on the kids at this point. Their number one goal these last few decades has been to brainwash the children and create good little future adult Democrats. They stopped teaching the kids the basics of Education a long time ago.
> 
> Teacher Unions now only do far more harm than they do good. It's time for them to go away. The Public School System will be so much better off when they're gone. The Kids could actually start learning again. American kids continue to fall further & further behind other far less developed and less wealthy nations. I do blame the Teacher Unions for this. They have become too obsessed with the cash and creating good little future adult Democrats. They have lost their way. Get rid of the Teacher Unions and our Public School System might just be able to be salvaged.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know dozens of private school teachers and none of them are in a union.  I wonder why they are necessary in public schools.  Anyone know?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Look to the average pay for private school teachers compared to public school teachers and their turnover rate.   Plus, let me point out that private schools get to pick and choose their clientele.   Public schools do not.   I have a close friend who has an ED student (emotionally disturbed) student in his class ever day...when he is not suspended for threatening other students, teachers, administrators.   He is horribly misplaced but the parents INSIST on him being in the "least restrictive environment".   So this student threatens others, makes noises in class and refuses to work.  And because this is a public school, the school, the administrators, the teachers have no choice.  Tell me a private school that would accept that.
Click to expand...


So you're saying a teacher union is necessary to address these problems?


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## LibocalypseNow

bodecea said:


> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers have it pretty good compared to many other occupations. Yet Teachers seem to do the most whining & complaining. They get all weekends off,several weeks of paid Holiday time off,and they get their Summers off. That just doesn't seem so horrible. Of all professions,Teachers by far do the most whining & complaining. Look around America and see how many Americans enjoy all weekends off,several weeks of paid Holiday time off,and entire Summers off. So Teachers do have it pretty good. They need to slow down on their whiny greed. It does come down to the Teacher Unions in the end. They force their members to whine & complain so much. Give em the boot and our Schools might just recover.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where did you hear that teachers get paid vacations?   It is 180 days plus usually another 5 for prep.   Period.
> 
> So...tell us, how much have you been in the classroom experiencing what teachers do and how they work, Libo?
Click to expand...


Most American Workers do not get to enjoy all Weekends off,several weeks of Holiday Time off,and entire Summers off. Get out into the real world and see for yourself. Teachers just whine & complain too much. They have it pretty good. Just look around and see for yourself how most American Workers live. Most of these whiny teachers need a reality-check. How bout less Whining and more Teaching? A novel concept huh?


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## bodecea

LibocalypseNow said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers have it pretty good compared to many other occupations. Yet Teachers seem to do the most whining & complaining. They get all weekends off,several weeks of paid Holiday time off,and they get their Summers off. That just doesn't seem so horrible. Of all professions,Teachers by far do the most whining & complaining. Look around America and see how many Americans enjoy all weekends off,several weeks of paid Holiday time off,and entire Summers off. So Teachers do have it pretty good. They need to slow down on their whiny greed. It does come down to the Teacher Unions in the end. They force their members to whine & complain so much. Give em the boot and our Schools might just recover.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where did you hear that teachers get paid vacations?   It is 180 days plus usually another 5 for prep.   Period.
> 
> So...tell us, how much have you been in the classroom experiencing what teachers do and how they work, Libo?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Most American Workers do not get to enjoy all Weekends off,several weeks of Holiday Time off,and entire Summers off. Get out into the real world and see for yourself. Teachers just whine & complain too much. They have it pretty good. Just look around and see for yourself how most American Workers live. Most of these whiny teachers need a reality-check. How bout less Whining and more Teaching? A novel concept huh?
Click to expand...


IF they love the "great deal" that teachers get, why do we have a hard time getting people to be teachers and stay teachers, Libo.   Most burn out in 5 years.   Doesn't make sense if it's such a great deal, does it?   Explain please.


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## WillowTree

Senate Democrats in Wisconsin failed to show up Thursday for a vote on a "union-busting" bill that has prompted police officers to launch a dragnet for the missing lawmakers.

Republicans hold a 19-14 majority but a vote cannot be taken until at least one Democratic senator is present. 

"It's kind of unbelievable that they're elected to do a job and they wouldn't show up to do it," Republican Assembly Speaker Jeff Fitzgerald told Fox News.

Police Search for Senate Democrats Who Skipped Vote to Curtail Union Rights in Wisconsin - FoxNews.com


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## Soggy in NOLA

xsited1 said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> xsited1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know dozens of private school teachers and none of them are in a union.  I wonder why they are necessary in public schools.  Anyone know?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Look to the average pay for private school teachers compared to public school teachers and their turnover rate.   Plus, let me point out that private schools get to pick and choose their clientele.   Public schools do not.   I have a close friend who has an ED student (emotionally disturbed) student in his class ever day...when he is not suspended for threatening other students, teachers, administrators.   He is horribly misplaced but the parents INSIST on him being in the "least restrictive environment".   So this student threatens others, makes noises in class and refuses to work.  And because this is a public school, the school, the administrators, the teachers have no choice.  Tell me a private school that would accept that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So you're saying a teacher union is necessary to address these problems?
Click to expand...


A private school would insist, and rightly so, that the parents get over themselves and put him where he belongs instead of foisting him on everybody else.


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## WillowTree

Libturds on parade!













They did that once in Texas too, ran away to Oklahoma to avoid voting.









Total fucking asswipes.


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## LibocalypseNow

The Grass is always Greener on the other side for many. Teachers just need a reality-check. They need to be forced out to see how most American Workers live & survive. I assure you most do not have all Weekends off,several weeks of Holiday Time off,and entire Summers off. If it's all about money & politics for them,they should choose another line of work. The kids deserve so much better.


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## California Girl

Cowards.


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## bodecea

LibocalypseNow said:


> The Grass is always Greener on the other side for many. Teachers just need a reality-check. *They need to be forced out* to see how most American Workers live & survive. I assure you most do not have all Weekends off,several weeks of Holiday Time off,and entire Summers off. If it's all about money & politics for them,they should choose another line of work. The kids deserve so much better.



There you have it.   Libo does not think that we need teachers.  They need to be forced out.


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## WillowTree

It's on 
Fox News.. wonder if it's on huffingsome or msnbc??


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## Soggy in NOLA

bodecea said:


> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where did you hear that teachers get paid vacations?   It is 180 days plus usually another 5 for prep.   Period.
> 
> So...tell us, how much have you been in the classroom experiencing what teachers do and how they work, Libo?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most American Workers do not get to enjoy all Weekends off,several weeks of Holiday Time off,and entire Summers off. Get out into the real world and see for yourself. Teachers just whine & complain too much. They have it pretty good. Just look around and see for yourself how most American Workers live. Most of these whiny teachers need a reality-check. How bout less Whining and more Teaching? A novel concept huh?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> IF they love the "great deal" that teachers get, why do we have a hard time getting people to be teachers and stay teachers, Libo.   Most burn out in 5 years.   Doesn't make sense if it's such a great deal, does it?   Explain please.
Click to expand...


That has more to do with the human refuse that some kids are these days thanks to shitty parenting.  No union in the world is going to address that.  Unless of course, the argument is that "we'll get you such great pay and benefits and you'll never get fired so it will all be worth it."


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## Skull Pilot

Yeah who needs democracy we just won't show up.

The vote should be held no matter who shows up.


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## 8537

And this is different from a procedural filibuster how, exactly?


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## Dr.Traveler

I find it hillarious that Conservatives want to do away with Free Assembly.

The point is, teachers have a right to form into unions if they want.  And they have plenty of reason to do so.  The burnout rate is astronomical, the pay is lousy for the first 10 years or so on the job, the parents are at non-exsistent in their kids lives, and at worst outright hostile, malpractice insurance is becoming a standard part of the job, and the hours are pretty atrocious.

If you don't like the teacher's unions, fire the teachers that unionize and try to replace them.  Once you do that though, don't dare complain about the quality of teacher you get for the price you all seem to be willing to pay.


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## xsited1

Soggy in NOLA said:


> xsited1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> Look to the average pay for private school teachers compared to public school teachers and their turnover rate.   Plus, let me point out that private schools get to pick and choose their clientele.   Public schools do not.   I have a close friend who has an ED student (emotionally disturbed) student in his class ever day...when he is not suspended for threatening other students, teachers, administrators.   He is horribly misplaced but the parents INSIST on him being in the "least restrictive environment".   So this student threatens others, makes noises in class and refuses to work.  And because this is a public school, the school, the administrators, the teachers have no choice.  Tell me a private school that would accept that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you're saying a teacher union is necessary to address these problems?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> A private school would insist, and rightly so, that the parents get over themselves and put him where he belongs instead of foisting him on everybody else.
Click to expand...


Of course.  That's one reason I send my kids to private schools (like Obama).  But I still don't understand the need for the teachers unions.


----------



## bodecea

Soggy in NOLA said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Most American Workers do not get to enjoy all Weekends off,several weeks of Holiday Time off,and entire Summers off. Get out into the real world and see for yourself. Teachers just whine & complain too much. They have it pretty good. Just look around and see for yourself how most American Workers live. Most of these whiny teachers need a reality-check. How bout less Whining and more Teaching? A novel concept huh?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IF they love the "great deal" that teachers get, why do we have a hard time getting people to be teachers and stay teachers, Libo.   Most burn out in 5 years.   Doesn't make sense if it's such a great deal, does it?   Explain please.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That has more to do with the human refuse that some kids are these days thanks to shitty parenting.  No union in the world is going to address that.  Unless of course, the argument is that "we'll get you such great pay and benefits and *you'll never get fired* so it will all be worth it."
Click to expand...


INteresting how that misconception keeps popping up.


----------



## LibocalypseNow

By forced out i obviously meant they should be forced out into the real world to see how most American Workers live & survive. It would likely give them a whole new perspective. They don't have it so bad. They need to quit with all the whining & political activism. The kids need to be educated. They don't need to be indoctrinated and forced to deal with Teacher Union greed & politics. Teacher Unions need to go. It's the only logical way forward for our Public School System.


----------



## WillowTree

nope,, couldn't find a thing on msnbc or huffingsome..


----------



## WillowTree

8537 said:


> And this is different from a procedural filibuster how, exactly?



The police are involved?


----------



## Skull Pilot

8537 said:


> And this is different from a procedural filibuster how, exactly?



One has to be present in order to engage in a filibuster.


----------



## Dr.House

Brave Sir Robin ran away. 
Bravely ran away away. 
When danger reared it's ugly head, 
He bravely turned his tail and fled. 
Yes, brave Sir Robin turned about 
And gallantly he chickened out. 

****Bravely**** taking to his feet, 
He beat a very brave retreat. 
Bravest of the braaaave, Sir Robin!


----------



## Dr.Drock

Dr.Traveler said:


> I find it hillarious that Conservatives want to do away with Free Assembly.
> 
> The point is, teachers have a right to form into unions if they want.  And they have plenty of reason to do so.  The burnout rate is astronomical, the pay is lousy for the first 10 years or so on the job, the parents are at non-exsistent in their kids lives, and at worst outright hostile, malpractice insurance is becoming a standard part of the job, and the hours are pretty atrocious.
> 
> If you don't like the teacher's unions, fire the teachers that unionize and try to replace them.  Once you do that though, don't dare complain about the quality of teacher you get for the price you all seem to be willing to pay.



To me it more seems like the message on this thread is that they should break up for the sake of better educating our kids, I don't think I've read anyone say government should write up a law forbidding unions.

I haven't read every post so I could be wrong.


----------



## WillowTree

Here's the Texan cowards.





Texas House paralyzed by Democratic walkout - CNN


----------



## xsited1

Dr.Drock said:


> Dr.Traveler said:
> 
> 
> 
> I find it hillarious that Conservatives want to do away with Free Assembly.
> 
> The point is, teachers have a right to form into unions if they want.  And they have plenty of reason to do so.  The burnout rate is astronomical, the pay is lousy for the first 10 years or so on the job, the parents are at non-exsistent in their kids lives, and at worst outright hostile, malpractice insurance is becoming a standard part of the job, and the hours are pretty atrocious.
> 
> If you don't like the teacher's unions, fire the teachers that unionize and try to replace them.  Once you do that though, don't dare complain about the quality of teacher you get for the price you all seem to be willing to pay.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To me it more seems like the message on this thread is that they should break up for the sake of better educating our kids, I don't think I've read anyone say government should right up a law forbidding unions.
> 
> I haven't read every post so I could be wrong.
Click to expand...


That's my take as well, although Dr.Traveler was talking about conservatives so that doesn't include me.


----------



## HUGGY

I think it is GREAT when a USMB member shares his expertise.


----------



## bodecea

LibocalypseNow said:


> By forced out i obviously meant they should be forced out into the real world to see how most American Workers live & survive. It would likely give them a whole new perspective. They don't have it so bad. They need to quit with all the whining & political activism. The kids need to be educated. They don't need to be indoctrinated and forced to deal with Teacher Union greed & politics. Teacher Unions need to go. It's the only logical way forward for our Public School System.



Do you think that teachers have never had other jobs before?

Do you think that all teachers stay teachers forever and do no other jobs?

Do you think that teachers do not have summer jobs from time to time?

This is amusing...you seem to think that teachers live in some Ivory Tower somewhere when it is YOU in the Ivory Tower.   Unless you can answer my question as to how much time you have spent in the classroom teaching.


(BTW...North Carolina is an example of a state with no union...how good is their public education?   Hmmmmm?)


----------



## Mr Natural

LibocalypseNow said:


> By forced out i obviously meant they should be forced out into the real world to see how most American Workers live & survive. It would likely give them a whole new perspective. They don't have it so bad. *They need to quit with all the whining *& political activism. The kids need to be educated. They don't need to be indoctrinated and forced to deal with Teacher Union greed & politics. Teacher Unions need to go. It's the only logical way forward for our Public School System.



The ones who need to "quit the whining" are those who begrudge other working people a decent living.


----------



## martybegan

Nothing wrong with this tactic, and nothing wrong with sending the cops to search for them.


----------



## WillowTree

martybegan said:


> Nothing wrong with this tactic, and nothing wrong with sending the cops to search for them.



But shouldn't they sacrifice salary while on the lamb?


----------



## ScreamingEagle

Soggy in NOLA said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Most American Workers do not get to enjoy all Weekends off,several weeks of Holiday Time off,and entire Summers off. Get out into the real world and see for yourself. Teachers just whine & complain too much. They have it pretty good. Just look around and see for yourself how most American Workers live. Most of these whiny teachers need a reality-check. How bout less Whining and more Teaching? A novel concept huh?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IF they love the "great deal" that teachers get, why do we have a hard time getting people to be teachers and stay teachers, Libo.   Most burn out in 5 years.   Doesn't make sense if it's such a great deal, does it?   Explain please.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That has more to do with the human refuse that some kids are these days thanks to shitty parenting.  No union in the world is going to address that.  Unless of course, the argument is that "we'll get you such great pay and benefits and you'll never get fired so it will all be worth it."
Click to expand...


Not so....that's part of the union problem influencing school policies....in round about ways they protect and promote the "human refuse that some kids are these day".....private schools do not put up with that crap...they actually care about the kids first...


----------



## WillowTree

martybegan said:


> Nothing wrong with this tactic, and nothing wrong with sending the cops to search for them.



How much is it costing the taxpayer to send the police after these cowards? doyathink?


----------



## martybegan

WillowTree said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing wrong with this tactic, and nothing wrong with sending the cops to search for them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But shouldn't they sacrifice salary while on the lamb?
Click to expand...


I believe wisconsin's legistature is part time anyway, and they can always use the "meeting with constituents" line.


----------



## Jackson

I think they should sacrifice their seat.


----------



## Dr.House

If only the dems at the federal level ran away too...


----------



## LibocalypseNow

Also,Teachers should look at themselves in the mirror more often. Our Public Schools are in shambles and our kids are falling further & further behind far less developed and less wealthy Nations. Teachers have to accept some responsibility for this. Their constant whining and blaming everyone else is just becoming tiresome & stale. Teachers have consistently fought against any mandated standards & testing to ensure that only the best Teachers are teaching our children. The Teacher Unions especially have fought viciously against these standard tests and evaluations. What other occupation doesn't evaluate their employees' performance? So Teachers need to accept more responsibility for our failing Schools. Blaming everyone else just isn't gonna cut it anymore.


----------



## Two Thumbs

xsited1 said:


> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kudos to new Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker!
> 
> More brave Politicians need to start standing up to the corrupt Teacher Unions. The Teacher Unions have brought our Public School System to its knees. It has become all about them. It's all about getting that cash for them. They don't care about the kids anymore. They also only want to force their politics and social experimenting on the kids at this point. Their number one goal these last few decades has been to brainwash the children and create good little future adult Democrats. They stopped teaching the kids the basics of Education a long time ago.
> 
> Teacher Unions now only do far more harm than they do good. It's time for them to go away. The Public School System will be so much better off when they're gone. The Kids could actually start learning again. American kids continue to fall further & further behind other far less developed and less wealthy nations. I do blame the Teacher Unions for this. They have become too obsessed with the cash and creating good little future adult Democrats. They have lost their way. Get rid of the Teacher Unions and our Public School System might just be able to be salvaged.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know dozens of private school teachers and none of them are in a union.  I wonder why they are necessary in public schools.  Anyone know?
Click to expand...


So they can pay unions dues up to the time they decide they don't want to do thier job worth a damn any more, then the union keeps them there, unless they commit a crime.


----------



## Skull Pilot

I'd like to see the OP title edited so as to be more accurate.
*
Police search for Dems Who Skipped Vote to give workers the right not to be forced to join a union.*


----------



## Two Thumbs

WillowTree said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kudos to new Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker!
> 
> More brave Politicians need to start standing up to the corrupt Teacher Unions. The Teacher Unions have brought our Public School System to its knees. It has become all about them. It's all about getting that cash for them. They don't care about the kids anymore. They also only want to force their politics and social experimenting on the kids at this point. Their number one goal these last few decades has been to brainwash the children and create good little future adult Democrats. They stopped teaching the kids the basics of Education a long time ago.
> 
> Teacher Unions now only do far more harm than they do good. It's time for them to go away. The Public School System will be so much better off when they're gone. The Kids could actually start learning again. American kids continue to fall further & further behind other far less developed and less wealthy nations. I do blame the Teacher Unions for this. They have become too obsessed with the cash and creating good little future adult Democrats. They have lost their way. Get rid of the Teacher Unions and our Public School System might just be able to be salvaged.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How much time have YOU spend in the classroom Libo?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Didn't you mean "spent"? I don't think "spend" goes well in this sentence.
Click to expand...


BOO!

typo slams are cheap shots.

BOO!


----------



## Soggy in NOLA

8537 said:


> And this is different from a procedural filibuster how, exactly?



Because they had been ordered to show up.


----------



## Dr.Traveler

Dr.Drock said:


> To me it more seems like the message on this thread is that they should break up for the sake of better educating our kids, I don't think I've read anyone say government should right up a law forbidding unions.
> 
> I haven't read every post so I could be wrong.



There are plenty of folks on the board that don't believe that public sector employees shouldn't be able to unionze, a clear violation of their rights. 

My stance is pretty clear.  Everyone has a right to unionize under freedom of assembly.  I do believe that if you do not want to deal with a union, you have the right to fire the employees and try to replace them.

What's really stupid about what's going on in Wisconsin right now is that they're trying to break up all of the public sector unions *except* the Police and Firefighters unions, which almost unannomously supported the Governor in his election bid.  It's clearly political payback and its pretty corrupt.  And Conservatives are lapping it up like milk.

What is even sillier is that the law is attempting to actively limit what Unions can and can not negotiate over.  That's so stupid it hurts.  Once a union is pissed off enough to strike, they'll strike.  As the employer you can try to say what's in bounds for negotiation, but if the Union is willing to stand firm, you'll have to back off your limits or try to hire new employees.

Of course, the really really really stupid part is that the Snow Plow drivers are also being targetted.  If you don't see why that's funny, try living in Wisconsin between November and May.  If they go on strike, so will you.


----------



## Two Thumbs

Nosmo King said:


> Ever notice how the Right Wing constantly wants to undermine working people?  Eliminate collective bargaining rights, lobby hard for a flat tax, work against workplace safety and environmental regulations.
> 
> Conservatives also want to erode other rights.  No same sex marriage.  No burning a flag in protest.  No real science taught, only dogmatic fables.
> 
> Every struggle for equality and freedom and civil rights happens with Conservatives in opposition.  Makes me wonder what would motivate someone to think Conservatism is actually something worthy of American ideals.



gee

that's not even a little off target or full of any kind of generalisations or lies.


----------



## Dr.Traveler

ScreamingEagle said:


> Not so....that's part of the union problem influencing school policies....in round about ways they protect and promote the "human refuse that some kids are these day".....private schools do not put up with that crap...they actually care about the kids first...



Private schools can easily eject students that won't work or are disruptive.  Public schools WISH they had this option.  The truth is that the formal expulsion process in a public school is a nightmare because it is guaranteed that once you expel a child, you're looking at a lawsuit.

That's why any conversation about Public School versus Private School is kinda silly.  It's apples and oranges when you look at the quality of student involved.


----------



## Two Thumbs

LibocalypseNow said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers have it pretty good compared to many other occupations. Yet Teachers seem to do the most whining & complaining. They get all weekends off,several weeks of paid Holiday time off,and they get their Summers off. That just doesn't seem so horrible. Of all professions,Teachers by far do the most whining & complaining. Look around America and see how many Americans enjoy all weekends off,several weeks of paid Holiday time off,and entire Summers off. So Teachers do have it pretty good. They need to slow down on their whiny greed. It does come down to the Teacher Unions in the end. They force their members to whine & complain so much. Give em the boot and our Schools might just recover.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers earn far less on average than non-teachers with the same level of education required for the job.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That may be true but they receive other great benefits no other occupations have. All Weekends off,several weeks of paid Holiday Time off,and entire Summers off? That seems pretty nice to most outside observers. Look around America and see how many other Americans enjoy those kinds of benefits. The Teacher Unions are only trouble at this point. They've outlived their usefulness. They only stand for greed and political activism at this point. It's time for them to get the boot once and for all. Our kids deserve better.
Click to expand...


Can't do it for the children if it means doing it too the unions.

You forget, the unions mean far more to liberals than children do.  that or they want kids to be taught a very specific way, and this is all intentional.


----------



## LibocalypseNow

Teachers just don't want to take any responsibility for our failing Schools. It's all about whiny deflection for them. They had a big hand in our Public School System collapsing. I know they wont admit this but it is the truth.


----------



## 8537

WillowTree said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing wrong with this tactic, and nothing wrong with sending the cops to search for them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But shouldn't they sacrifice salary while on the lamb?
Click to expand...


yes, they should!  Good pt.


----------



## Nosmo King

Two Thumbs said:


> Nosmo King said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ever notice how the Right Wing constantly wants to undermine working people?  Eliminate collective bargaining rights, lobby hard for a flat tax, work against workplace safety and environmental regulations.
> 
> Conservatives also want to erode other rights.  No same sex marriage.  No burning a flag in protest.  No real science taught, only dogmatic fables.
> 
> Every struggle for equality and freedom and civil rights happens with Conservatives in opposition.  Makes me wonder what would motivate someone to think Conservatism is actually something worthy of American ideals.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gee
> 
> that's not even a little off target or full of any kind of generalisations or lies.
Click to expand...

Enlighten me.  Tell me of the sterling record Conservatives hold on guaranteeing worker's rights, environmental protection and civil rights.  Tell me how Conservatives stand fore-square against the inclusion of dogma in science classes.

I'm a vessel.  Fill me.


----------



## Soggy in NOLA

bodecea said:


> Soggy in NOLA said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> IF they love the "great deal" that teachers get, why do we have a hard time getting people to be teachers and stay teachers, Libo.   Most burn out in 5 years.   Doesn't make sense if it's such a great deal, does it?   Explain please.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That has more to do with the human refuse that some kids are these days thanks to shitty parenting.  No union in the world is going to address that.  Unless of course, the argument is that "we'll get you such great pay and benefits and *you'll never get fired* so it will all be worth it."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> INteresting how that misconception keeps popping up.
Click to expand...


It's an exaggeration, yes.  But without a doubt, it is much harder to get fired than it is in the private sector.  Hence all the crappy, tenured, _unionized _teachers


----------



## Soggy in NOLA

Nosmo King said:


> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nosmo King said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ever notice how the Right Wing constantly wants to undermine working people?  Eliminate collective bargaining rights, lobby hard for a flat tax, work against workplace safety and environmental regulations.
> 
> Conservatives also want to erode other rights.  No same sex marriage.  No burning a flag in protest.  No real science taught, only dogmatic fables.
> 
> Every struggle for equality and freedom and civil rights happens with Conservatives in opposition.  Makes me wonder what would motivate someone to think Conservatism is actually something worthy of American ideals.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gee
> 
> that's not even a little off target or full of any kind of generalisations or lies.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Enlighten me.  Tell me of the sterling record Conservatives hold on guaranteeing worker's rights, environmental protection and civil rights.  Tell me how Conservatives stand fore-square against the inclusion of dogma in science classes.
> 
> I'm a vessel.  Fill me.
Click to expand...


You're already full... _of shit._


----------



## Nosmo King

Soggy in NOLA said:


> Nosmo King said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> 
> gee
> 
> that's not even a little off target or full of any kind of generalisations or lies.
> 
> 
> 
> Enlighten me.  Tell me of the sterling record Conservatives hold on guaranteeing worker's rights, environmental protection and civil rights.  Tell me how Conservatives stand fore-square against the inclusion of dogma in science classes.
> 
> I'm a vessel.  Fill me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're already full... _of shit._
Click to expand...

I can't be disappointed by the lack of articulation.  I've yet to see an articulate argument from you or any other Conservative on those points. 

Deflections and ad hominems for sure.  But never articulate arguments.


----------



## HUGGY

*Police Search for Senate Democrats Who Skipped Vote to Curtail Union Rights in Wiscon*

This is a police matter how exactly?


----------



## Intense

Merged


----------



## Dr.Traveler

Two Thumbs said:


> You forget, the unions mean far more to liberals than children do.



It's chicken and egg.  You won't have a shot at a quality education if you can't get quality teachers interested in the profession and willing to stick it out.  And you won't get quality teachers if the working conditions are terrible.  Unions improve the working conditions which attracts more qualified teaching candidates.

It's the tenure thing all over again.  I can leave my job for private industry and double my income at the entry level.  I love teaching and research, but I have kids.  The only reason I can justify staying in my job is the protection that the tenure process provides for my family's income.  If I can be fired as easily as any other employee, I'll take my chances at the higher paying job thank you very much.

Right now teaching is, and remains a pretty crappy job.  Most teachers I know go in by 5am, and don't leave school until after 5pm.  They take grading home and spend their evenings and weekends working on lesson plans and grading.  They spend a decent chunk of the summer either filing and filling out paperwork on the previous year, or preparing for the coming year.  Or, they're teaching summer school to make ends meet because they're only 9 month employees.  The parents curse you out over the phone on a regular basis, the students talk back, and the upper administration has deprived you of any tools to maintain discipline because they're scared to death of lawsuits.

So if the State of Wisconsin, or any state for that matter, decides to fire teachers willing to unionize to improve their lot in life, they're free to do so.  But good luck finding replacements.  The fact you filled the job in the first place is a flat out miracle.


----------



## Dr.Traveler

LibocalypseNow said:


> Teachers just don't want to take any responsibility for our failing Schools. It's all about whiny deflection for them. They had a big hand in our Public School System collapsing. I know they wont admit this but it is the truth.



Parents are about 98% of the problem.  That's the truth.


----------



## Two Thumbs

Nosmo King said:


> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nosmo King said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ever notice how the Right Wing constantly wants to undermine working people?  Eliminate collective bargaining rights, lobby hard for a flat tax, work against workplace safety and environmental regulations.
> 
> Conservatives also want to erode other rights.  No same sex marriage.  No burning a flag in protest.  No real science taught, only dogmatic fables.
> 
> Every struggle for equality and freedom and civil rights happens with Conservatives in opposition.  Makes me wonder what would motivate someone to think Conservatism is actually something worthy of American ideals.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gee
> 
> that's not even a little off target or full of any kind of generalisations or lies.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Enlighten me.  Tell me of the sterling record Conservatives hold on guaranteeing worker's rights, environmental protection and civil rights.  Tell me how Conservatives stand fore-square against the inclusion of dogma in science classes.
> 
> I'm a vessel.  Fill me.
Click to expand...


I do my best not to derail threads.  So if you actually want answers, start a new thread.


----------



## Annie

bodecea said:


> xsited1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kudos to new Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker!
> 
> More brave Politicians need to start standing up to the corrupt Teacher Unions. The Teacher Unions have brought our Public School System to its knees. It has become all about them. It's all about getting that cash for them. They don't care about the kids anymore. They also only want to force their politics and social experimenting on the kids at this point. Their number one goal these last few decades has been to brainwash the children and create good little future adult Democrats. They stopped teaching the kids the basics of Education a long time ago.
> 
> Teacher Unions now only do far more harm than they do good. It's time for them to go away. The Public School System will be so much better off when they're gone. The Kids could actually start learning again. American kids continue to fall further & further behind other far less developed and less wealthy nations. I do blame the Teacher Unions for this. They have become too obsessed with the cash and creating good little future adult Democrats. They have lost their way. Get rid of the Teacher Unions and our Public School System might just be able to be salvaged.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know dozens of private school teachers and none of them are in a union.  I wonder why they are necessary in public schools.  Anyone know?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Look to the average pay for private school teachers compared to public school teachers and their turnover rate.   Plus, let me point out that private schools get to pick and choose their clientele.   Public schools do not.   I have a close friend who has an ED student (emotionally disturbed) student in his class ever day...when he is not suspended for threatening other students, teachers, administrators.   He is horribly misplaced but the parents INSIST on him being in the "least restrictive environment".   So this student threatens others, makes noises in class and refuses to work.  And because this is a public school, the school, the administrators, the teachers have no choice.  Tell me a private school that would accept that.
Click to expand...

Private schools, at least parochial schools do NOT necessarily get to pick and choose their students. Our diocese has a mission, "All God's Children" which has come down to accepting all applications up to the limit of the school-first come, first served basis. What does that mean? Many classes have several students with severe learning or behavior problems, and no staffing resources. The public schools are actually referring students whose parents don't want them 'labeled.' Nice trick, eh? 

I'd compare the turnover rates more favorably between private and public schools within socioeconomic areas, you'd be surprised. Many parochial teachers feel they have a mission to be at religious school. Many private schools, non-parochial, do get to pick and choose students and pay very well.


----------



## ScreamingEagle

Dr.Traveler said:


> ScreamingEagle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not so....that's part of the union problem influencing school policies....in round about ways they protect and promote the "human refuse that some kids are these day".....private schools do not put up with that crap...they actually care about the kids first...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Private schools can easily eject students that won't work or are disruptive.  Public schools WISH they had this option.  The truth is that the formal expulsion process in a public school is a nightmare because it is guaranteed that once you expel a child, you're looking at a lawsuit.
> 
> That's why any conversation about Public School versus Private School is kinda silly.  It's apples and oranges when you look at the quality of student involved.
Click to expand...


you're looking at a lawsuit everytime you turn around in the public sector.....political correctness gone amok...

whatever happened to local school boards running their own schools the way they want to
....instead of federal level unions and other powers-that-be.....?

we need to cut all Federal funding to schools....and eliminate the Dept. of Ed....the highest help to local schools should be from the State level...

...that would also eliminate most of the union problem....and give the power back to the parents in a community.....(most) parents aren't the problem.....parents today are pretty much gagged by the powers-that-be in the education system today....


----------



## Mr Natural

Dr.Traveler said:


> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers just don't want to take any responsibility for our failing Schools. It's all about whiny deflection for them. They had a big hand in our Public School System collapsing. I know they wont admit this but it is the truth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Parents are about 98% of the problem*.  That's the truth.
Click to expand...



I worked with several former teachers who dropped out of the profession for that exact reason.


----------



## Annie

Dr.Traveler said:


> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers just don't want to take any responsibility for our failing Schools. It's all about whiny deflection for them. They had a big hand in our Public School System collapsing. I know they wont admit this but it is the truth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Parents are about 98% of the problem.  That's the truth.
Click to expand...


Parenting, not parents is most of the problem, one that could be very effectively addressed by combining resources of hospitals, schools, and community.


----------



## Charles_Main

LibocalypseNow said:


> Kudos to new Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker!
> 
> More brave Politicians need to start standing up to the corrupt Teacher Unions. The Teacher Unions have brought our Public School System to its knees. It has become all about them. It's all about getting that cash for them. They don't care about the kids anymore. They also only want to force their politics and social experimenting on the kids at this point. Their number one goal these last few decades has been to brainwash the children and create good little future adult Democrats. They stopped teaching the kids the basics of Education a long time ago.
> 
> Teacher Unions now only do far more harm than they do good. It's time for them to go away. The Public School System will be so much better off when they're gone. The Kids could actually start learning again. American kids continue to fall further & further behind other far less developed and less wealthy nations. I do blame the Teacher Unions for this. They have become too obsessed with the cash and creating good little future adult Democrats. They have lost their way. Get rid of the Teacher Unions and our Public School System might just be able to be salvaged.



If the Teachers of the Wisconsin Union cared about the kids. They would be in the classroom teaching them. Not out in the streets calling the Governor a Nazi, and crying about Wages and Benefits the nearly bankrupt state can not afford to continue to pay.

If the Governor does not get his way on this, the other option is to lay off many Teachers. 

There simply is no money to pay for their lavish Union Contracts anymore, especially not when you consider they dismal performance of the students they teach.


----------



## bodecea

Charles_Main said:


> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kudos to new Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker!
> 
> More brave Politicians need to start standing up to the corrupt Teacher Unions. The Teacher Unions have brought our Public School System to its knees. It has become all about them. It's all about getting that cash for them. They don't care about the kids anymore. They also only want to force their politics and social experimenting on the kids at this point. Their number one goal these last few decades has been to brainwash the children and create good little future adult Democrats. They stopped teaching the kids the basics of Education a long time ago.
> 
> Teacher Unions now only do far more harm than they do good. It's time for them to go away. The Public School System will be so much better off when they're gone. The Kids could actually start learning again. American kids continue to fall further & further behind other far less developed and less wealthy nations. I do blame the Teacher Unions for this. They have become too obsessed with the cash and creating good little future adult Democrats. They have lost their way. Get rid of the Teacher Unions and our Public School System might just be able to be salvaged.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *If the Teachers of the Wisconsin Union cared about the kids.* They would be in the classroom teaching them. Not out in the streets calling the Governor a Nazi, and crying about Wages and Benefits the nearly bankrupt state can not afford to continue to pay.
> 
> If the Governor does not get his way on this, the other option is to lay off many Teachers.
> 
> There simply is no money to pay for their lavish Union Contracts anymore, especially not when you consider they dismal performance of the students they teach.
Click to expand...


Here is the Great Weapon used against teachers and unions when they ask for decent wages, health care, etc.   

Heck, let's tell the truth....if Teachers cared about their students...they'd work for free, let government run over them with a bull dozer and kindly ask for more.   

Apparently the best teacher is one who has no self-worth or self-esteem.


----------



## Nosmo King

Two Thumbs said:


> Nosmo King said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> 
> gee
> 
> that's not even a little off target or full of any kind of generalisations or lies.
> 
> 
> 
> Enlighten me.  Tell me of the sterling record Conservatives hold on guaranteeing worker's rights, environmental protection and civil rights.  Tell me how Conservatives stand fore-square against the inclusion of dogma in science classes.
> 
> I'm a vessel.  Fill me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I do my best not to derail threads.  So if you actually want answers, start a new thread.
Click to expand...

How do I do that without being dismissed as trolling?  How about just the part about undermining worker's rights?  That is germain to the thread.


----------



## LibocalypseNow

Teacher Unions constantly fight viciously against any kind of standards testing and evaluations for Teacher job performance. I see this in every State i've ever lived in. Teachers don't want to be tested & evaluated on job performance. Why is that? Every other occupation has some kind of evaluation process for gauging Employee job performance? So why not test & evaluate Teachers as well? This would ensure that our children are being taught by the best of the best. Poorly evaluated teachers would see no rewards and excellent Teachers would receive praise and bonuses. This seems like a perfectly fair process to me. So teachers have played a huge role in our failing Public Schools. I know they refuse to accept this but it is the reality. Nothing will change though until the Teacher Unions get the boot. It is very sad but it is what it is.


----------



## Charles_Main

bodecea said:


> Charles_Main said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kudos to new Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker!
> 
> More brave Politicians need to start standing up to the corrupt Teacher Unions. The Teacher Unions have brought our Public School System to its knees. It has become all about them. It's all about getting that cash for them. They don't care about the kids anymore. They also only want to force their politics and social experimenting on the kids at this point. Their number one goal these last few decades has been to brainwash the children and create good little future adult Democrats. They stopped teaching the kids the basics of Education a long time ago.
> 
> Teacher Unions now only do far more harm than they do good. It's time for them to go away. The Public School System will be so much better off when they're gone. The Kids could actually start learning again. American kids continue to fall further & further behind other far less developed and less wealthy nations. I do blame the Teacher Unions for this. They have become too obsessed with the cash and creating good little future adult Democrats. They have lost their way. Get rid of the Teacher Unions and our Public School System might just be able to be salvaged.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *If the Teachers of the Wisconsin Union cared about the kids.* They would be in the classroom teaching them. Not out in the streets calling the Governor a Nazi, and crying about Wages and Benefits the nearly bankrupt state can not afford to continue to pay.
> 
> If the Governor does not get his way on this, the other option is to lay off many Teachers.
> 
> There simply is no money to pay for their lavish Union Contracts anymore, especially not when you consider they dismal performance of the students they teach.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here is the Great Weapon used against teachers and unions when they ask for decent wages, health care, etc.
> 
> Heck, let's tell the truth....if Teachers cared about their students...they'd work for free, let government run over them with a bull dozer and kindly ask for more.
> 
> Apparently the best teacher is one who has no self-worth or self-esteem.
Click to expand...


Nobody is asking them to work for free, so please STFU.

If they cared, they would not shut down the schools, like they have for the last 2 days, to go out in the streets and scream to keep the Status Quo, when the status Quo is unsustainable. 

Walker is not doing this to be a dick. He was elected with a mandate to get Wisconsin's Fiscal House in order, as long as the Teachers Unions continue to get everything the last governor Gave them. There will be no Fiscal order in WIS.


----------



## LibocalypseNow

Charles_Main said:


> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kudos to new Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker!
> 
> More brave Politicians need to start standing up to the corrupt Teacher Unions. The Teacher Unions have brought our Public School System to its knees. It has become all about them. It's all about getting that cash for them. They don't care about the kids anymore. They also only want to force their politics and social experimenting on the kids at this point. Their number one goal these last few decades has been to brainwash the children and create good little future adult Democrats. They stopped teaching the kids the basics of Education a long time ago.
> 
> Teacher Unions now only do far more harm than they do good. It's time for them to go away. The Public School System will be so much better off when they're gone. The Kids could actually start learning again. American kids continue to fall further & further behind other far less developed and less wealthy nations. I do blame the Teacher Unions for this. They have become too obsessed with the cash and creating good little future adult Democrats. They have lost their way. Get rid of the Teacher Unions and our Public School System might just be able to be salvaged.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the Teachers of the Wisconsin Union cared about the kids. They would be in the classroom teaching them. Not out in the streets calling the Governor a Nazi, and crying about Wages and Benefits the nearly bankrupt state can not afford to continue to pay.
> 
> If the Governor does not get his way on this, the other option is to lay off many Teachers.
> 
> There simply is no money to pay for their lavish Union Contracts anymore, especially not when you consider they dismal performance of the students they teach.
Click to expand...


BINGO!!  They don't care about the kids. They only care about themselves and getting Democrats elected. Teacher Unions don't belong in our Public School System anymore. That time has passed.


----------



## ScreamingEagle

Annie said:


> Dr.Traveler said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers just don't want to take any responsibility for our failing Schools. It's all about whiny deflection for them. They had a big hand in our Public School System collapsing. I know they wont admit this but it is the truth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Parents are about 98% of the problem.  That's the truth.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Parenting, not parents is most of the problem, one that could be very effectively addressed by combining resources of hospitals, schools, and community.
Click to expand...


So many student and parent and teacher problems could be addressed at the local community level.....and much more effectively....trying to solve problems from On High (the fed level) with a one-size fits all approach never works well...and the kids get lost in the bureauracy...


----------



## Two Thumbs

Nosmo King said:


> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nosmo King said:
> 
> 
> 
> Enlighten me.  Tell me of the sterling record Conservatives hold on guaranteeing worker's rights, environmental protection and civil rights.  Tell me how Conservatives stand fore-square against the inclusion of dogma in science classes.
> 
> I'm a vessel.  Fill me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do my best not to derail threads.  So if you actually want answers, start a new thread.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How do I do that without being dismissed as trolling?  How about just the part about undermining worker's rights?  That is germain to the thread.
Click to expand...


sure

I have yet to come across anyone in my life that has ever said they want to do away with unions for everyone b/c workers have to many rights.

I have seen them blamed for demanding excessive pay and benefits.  And THAT is a fact.

My home state of Il is going to go under, way under b/c they can not afford to pay the union pensions, never mind pay everything else.

So how is it "fair" to crush everyone else to pay for that?  How is it fair to keep a useless teacher just b/c they have tenure?

I'm just dying to know how you figure wanting children tought better is a bad thing if it means redoing the teachers union.


----------



## Dr.Traveler

ScreamingEagle said:


> ....and give the power back to the parents in a community.....(most) parents aren't the problem.....parents today are pretty much gagged by the powers-that-be in the education system today....



Parents wield most of the power in school systems through threats (or actual implementation of) lawsuits and outright bullying of spineless administrators.

The really good parents are pretty screwed.  The norm now is that both parents work full time jobs.  Once that became the norm, it became pretty hard for parents to be actively involved.  The majority only check in when little timmy gets an "F", and only check in then to threaten or bully timmy's teacher into giving him a "C".

A lot of folks here complain about social promotion and grade inflation.  What they should know is that most of that is because parents _demanded it!_  And when they didn't get it, they sued.


----------



## Dr.Traveler

Charles_Main said:


> Walker is not doing this to be a dick.



Actually, he is.  He's exempted the public sector unions that supported him in election bid.  If he were serious about balancing the budget, it would all be on the table.  It isn't.  Public sector unions that supported him got passed over while those that stood up to him are punished.


----------



## LibocalypseNow

They can't even get the Teachers to agree on standards testing & evaluations for Teacher job performance. This process would eliminate the under-performing Teachers who don't belong teaching our children. They viciously fight against these evaluations in every State. So the Unions just don't want to compromise and make any concessions. I really do have to applaud this Wisconsin Governor for standing up to them.


----------



## Charles_Main

Dr.Traveler said:


> Charles_Main said:
> 
> 
> 
> Walker is not doing this to be a dick.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, he is.  He's exempted the public sector unions that supported him in election bid.  If he were serious about balancing the budget, it would all be on the table.  It isn't.  Public sector unions that supported him got passed over while those that stood up to him are punished.
Click to expand...


He exempted unions that supported him eh? Wow yeah shocker, politicians never do anything like that. I mean Obama never did.

lol

What ever.

You people will cry and scream Nazi at every turn when ever a responsible leader tries to make hard Budget cuts. To you people the only answer is print more money and keep giving it away to under performing unions.

The Teachers are failing to teach our kids to a level acceptable, can you say the same about the Police and Fire Unions?


----------



## Charles_Main

LibocalypseNow said:


> Charles_Main said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kudos to new Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker!
> 
> More brave Politicians need to start standing up to the corrupt Teacher Unions. The Teacher Unions have brought our Public School System to its knees. It has become all about them. It's all about getting that cash for them. They don't care about the kids anymore. They also only want to force their politics and social experimenting on the kids at this point. Their number one goal these last few decades has been to brainwash the children and create good little future adult Democrats. They stopped teaching the kids the basics of Education a long time ago.
> 
> Teacher Unions now only do far more harm than they do good. It's time for them to go away. The Public School System will be so much better off when they're gone. The Kids could actually start learning again. American kids continue to fall further & further behind other far less developed and less wealthy nations. I do blame the Teacher Unions for this. They have become too obsessed with the cash and creating good little future adult Democrats. They have lost their way. Get rid of the Teacher Unions and our Public School System might just be able to be salvaged.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the Teachers of the Wisconsin Union cared about the kids. They would be in the classroom teaching them. Not out in the streets calling the Governor a Nazi, and crying about Wages and Benefits the nearly bankrupt state can not afford to continue to pay.
> 
> If the Governor does not get his way on this, the other option is to lay off many Teachers.
> 
> There simply is no money to pay for their lavish Union Contracts anymore, especially not when you consider they dismal performance of the students they teach.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> BINGO!!  They don't care about the kids. They only care about themselves and getting Democrats elected. Teacher Unions don't belong in our Public School System anymore. That time has passed.
Click to expand...


Well they are just really made, because for 8 Years they have a Democrat Puppet for governor, who gave them everything they asked for, no matter how fiscally irresponsible it was.


----------



## Dr.Traveler

Annie said:


> Parenting, not parents is most of the problem, one that could be very effectively addressed by combining resources of hospitals, schools, and community.



If you've got a solution, I'd love to hear it.  Most of the problems you're seeing now have their roots in the deteorating middle class.  My Dad was home on disability.  Because of that he was pretty actively involved in making sure I knew how to read and do math.  I'm a mathematician now thanks to the hours of logic puzzles and Rubik's puzzles he and I worked out together at home.

Now a days, most kids are lucky if Mom and Dad are ONLY working two part time jobs.  Staying above the poverty levels means even the most dedicated parents are barely able to spend time with their kids.  Once that started becoming the new norm, you started seeing problems in the schools.

Teachers are no substitute for actively involved parents.  What's causing most of the problems is the fact that teachers are being forced to be a parental substitute.


----------



## LibocalypseNow

Charles_Main said:


> Dr.Traveler said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Charles_Main said:
> 
> 
> 
> Walker is not doing this to be a dick.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, he is.  He's exempted the public sector unions that supported him in election bid.  If he were serious about balancing the budget, it would all be on the table.  It isn't.  Public sector unions that supported him got passed over while those that stood up to him are punished.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> He exempted unions that supported him eh? Wow yeah shocker, politicians never do anything like that. I mean Obama never did.
> 
> lol
> 
> What ever.
> 
> You people will cry and scream Nazi at every turn when ever a responsible leader tries to make hard Budget cuts. To you people the only answer is print more money and keep giving it away to under performing unions.
> 
> The Teachers are failing to teach our kids to a level acceptable, can you say the same about the Police and Fire Unions?
Click to expand...


 Yes Teachers are under-performing for the most part. It's time for Teacher Unions to just go away. Good riddance.


----------



## ScreamingEagle

Dr.Traveler said:


> ScreamingEagle said:
> 
> 
> 
> ....and give the power back to the parents in a community.....(most) parents aren't the problem.....parents today are pretty much gagged by the powers-that-be in the education system today....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Parents wield most of the power in school systems through threats (or actual implementation of) lawsuits and outright bullying of spineless administrators.
> 
> The really good parents are pretty screwed.  The norm now is that both parents work full time jobs.  Once that became the norm, it became pretty hard for parents to be actively involved.  The majority only check in when little timmy gets an "F", and only check in then to threaten or bully timmy's teacher into giving him a "C".
> 
> A lot of folks here complain about social promotion and grade inflation.  What they should know is that most of that is because parents _demanded it!_  And when they didn't get it, they sued.
Click to expand...


Bullshit....most parents don't stand a chance against "the system".....they have to organize in big groups to even be heard...

...lawsuits are a completely different animal.....is this really how most normal people want to resolve their issues in their communities.....?


----------



## Dr.Traveler

Charles_Main said:


> You people will cry and scream Nazi at every turn when ever a responsible leader tries to make hard Budget cuts. To you people the only answer is print more money and keep giving it away to under performing unions.



If he were really interested in being a responsible leader, he'd put it all on the table.  He isn't.

And no, I'm not in favor of printing more money.  What pisses me off about budgets is that the Left refuses to put entitlements on the table, and Right refuses to put Defense on the table.  Until both are on the table, any talk about cuts is pretty damn futile.


----------



## Nosmo King

Two Thumbs said:


> Nosmo King said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do my best not to derail threads.  So if you actually want answers, start a new thread.
> 
> 
> 
> How do I do that without being dismissed as trolling?  How about just the part about undermining worker's rights?  That is germain to the thread.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> sure
> 
> I have yet to come across anyone in my life that has ever said they want to do away with unions for everyone b/c workers have to many rights.
> 
> I have seen them blamed for demanding excessive pay and benefits.  And THAT is a fact.
> 
> My home state of Il is going to go under, way under b/c they can not afford to pay the union pensions, never mind pay everything else.
> 
> So how is it "fair" to crush everyone else to pay for that?  How is it fair to keep a useless teacher just b/c they have tenure?
> 
> I'm just dying to know how you figure wanting children tought better is a bad thing if it means redoing the teachers union.
Click to expand...

So, it's alright to blame union workers for asking for pay and benefits if it's thought to be excessive.  Does the same go for CEO Golden Parachute deals and bonuses?  Pensioners can be held in contempt for actually using their benefits.  But the wage disparity between management and worker is something Conservatives ignore.


----------



## Dr.Traveler

ScreamingEagle said:


> Bullshit....most parents don't stand a chance against "the system".....they have to organize in big groups to even be heard...
> 
> ...lawsuits are a completely different animal.....is this really how most normal people want to resolve their issues in their communities.....?



Bullshit.  Threaten to sue and you'll have the school falling all over itself to give the parent anything they want.  Where do you think social promotion and grade inflation really come from?

And I think we can all agree lawsuits are a pretty bs way to handle stuff.  That doesn't change the fact that a fair number of the public school teachers I interact with have started carrying malpractice insurance due to threat of parental lawsuits.

The really bad parents are driving the car right now.  It doesn't matter to them that Timmy hasn't turned in a homework assignment in 2 months, Timmy can't add two numbers, and Timmy can barely read.  And don't even bring up the fact that Timmy's parents have ignored repeated pleading for parent teacher conferences and refuse to sign any of the warning notes sent home.  Once Timmy get's an "F", you WILL see Timmy's parents and a Lawyer.  Worse, some administrator will magically decide Timmy deserves a "C" and promition to the next grade.

That scenario is far more common than you think.  And it is completely out of the hands of the teachers or the union.


----------



## LordBrownTrout

WillowTree said:


> Libturds on parade!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They did that once in Texas too, ran away to Oklahoma to avoid voting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Total fucking asswipes.





I remember that.  They were fleeing to some hotel up in Ardmore, Ok.


----------



## Annie

bodecea said:


> Charles_Main said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kudos to new Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker!
> 
> More brave Politicians need to start standing up to the corrupt Teacher Unions. The Teacher Unions have brought our Public School System to its knees. It has become all about them. It's all about getting that cash for them. They don't care about the kids anymore. They also only want to force their politics and social experimenting on the kids at this point. Their number one goal these last few decades has been to brainwash the children and create good little future adult Democrats. They stopped teaching the kids the basics of Education a long time ago.
> 
> Teacher Unions now only do far more harm than they do good. It's time for them to go away. The Public School System will be so much better off when they're gone. The Kids could actually start learning again. American kids continue to fall further & further behind other far less developed and less wealthy nations. I do blame the Teacher Unions for this. They have become too obsessed with the cash and creating good little future adult Democrats. They have lost their way. Get rid of the Teacher Unions and our Public School System might just be able to be salvaged.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *If the Teachers of the Wisconsin Union cared about the kids.* They would be in the classroom teaching them. Not out in the streets calling the Governor a Nazi, and crying about Wages and Benefits the nearly bankrupt state can not afford to continue to pay.
> 
> If the Governor does not get his way on this, the other option is to lay off many Teachers.
> 
> There simply is no money to pay for their lavish Union Contracts anymore, especially not when you consider they dismal performance of the students they teach.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here is the Great Weapon used against teachers and unions when they ask for decent wages, health care, etc.
> 
> Heck, let's tell the truth....if Teachers cared about their students...they'd work for free, let government run over them with a bull dozer and kindly ask for more.
> 
> Apparently the best teacher is one who has no self-worth or self-esteem.
Click to expand...


Once again I ask, what are considered 'fair wages' for teachers?


----------



## Dr.Traveler

Annie said:


> Once again I ask, what are considered 'fair wages' for teachers?



I'd imagine most teachers would consider their current wages "fair" provided the working environment wasn't so soul crushingly bad.  Or if it weren't for the fact that they're sent to the class deprived of any tool to maintain order.

It's when people start talking about stripping away tenure, or enacting provisions that will likely make the job that much harder that the real gripping about wages hits.  And that's a pretty fair thing.  In a free market economy, if you're asking to someone to perform a demanding job, you'd best be willing to pay them approprately if you want to keep a quality employee.  Otherwise they'll find another better paying job.  Which is what many teachers over the years have done.


----------



## ScreamingEagle

Dr.Traveler said:


> ScreamingEagle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bullshit....most parents don't stand a chance against "the system".....they have to organize in big groups to even be heard...
> 
> ...lawsuits are a completely different animal.....is this really how most normal people want to resolve their issues in their communities.....?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bullshit.  Threaten to sue and you'll have the school falling all over itself to give the parent anything they want.  Where do you think social promotion and grade inflation really come from?
> 
> And I think we can all agree lawsuits are a pretty bs way to handle stuff.  That doesn't change the fact that a fair number of the public school teachers I interact with have started carrying malpractice insurance due to threat of parental lawsuits.
> 
> The really bad parents are driving the car right now.  It doesn't matter to them that Timmy hasn't turned in a homework assignment in 2 months, Timmy can't add two numbers, and Timmy can barely read.  And don't even bring up the fact that Timmy's parents have ignored repeated pleading for parent teacher conferences and refuse to sign any of the warning notes sent home.  Once Timmy get's an "F", you WILL see Timmy's parents and a Lawyer.  Worse, some administrator will magically decide Timmy deserves a "C" and promition to the next grade.
> 
> That scenario is far more common than you think.  And it is completely out of the hands of the teachers or the union.
Click to expand...


I said before lawsuits were a different animal...yet they in essence do the same thing unions do....just an alternate leftist approach to destroying our schools and kids and families and communities.....why do you think the legal lobby supports dems so much....?


----------



## Annie

ScreamingEagle said:


> Annie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dr.Traveler said:
> 
> 
> 
> Parents are about 98% of the problem.  That's the truth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Parenting, not parents is most of the problem, one that could be very effectively addressed by combining resources of hospitals, schools, and community.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So many student and parent and teacher problems could be addressed at the local community level.....and much more effectively....trying to solve problems from On High (the fed level) with a one-size fits all approach never works well...and the kids get lost in the bureauracy...
Click to expand...


I believe that most parents really do want what's best for their kids. Most parents do what their parents did for them. Thus, the rich get richer and the poor, poorer. However, when someone they trust, a ob/gyn, pediatrician, nurse practitioner, social worker gives them basic information on nutrition, the importance of talking and telling stories to babies and toddlers. Talking, seems simple, right? You've no idea how many parents park their kids in front of TV with some toys and that's that. Oh they change their diapers and give them food-often junk. Mind you, not just 'poor folks' either. 

An outing to the grocery? They put the child in cart and shop, they leave. If the kid opens a package they may say, "No!" but that is the interaction. It's also where behavior issues start.

Something as simple as saying, "Your baby will learn to talk to you so much more quickly if you talk to them. Just easy ramblings of where you are going in the home, outside, what you see. They don't expect Aristotle." 

Grocery store with infant, just showing them a package of noodles, meat, whatever. Giving things words. Toddlers, much more interaction here. Can introduce good for you, snacks, and costs. 

Libraries, we all pay taxes, yes even the poor. Infants love being read and sung to. Board books are great for them after 6 months. Toddlers? A mix of board books, word books, and stories. If the parents can't read, they can tell stories both from their own ideas and based on pictures in book. They can encourage their children to do the same. All of these are high level cognitive activities to prepare children for reading and basic to socialization. 

By the age of 3 schools should have outreach programs tied into preschools and social services. These programs really need to offer parents a safe place to learn how to parent and provide environment for their children. 

Simple and cheap ideas to make the child responsible for picking up and organizing their belongings. 

Responsibilities to self and family.

Chores.

Reinforcement of interaction between parent and adult. Reasonable expectations of age and maturity. How a child telling you, "NO!" can be a good thing, within reason. No underestimating how much child abuse could be avoided.


----------



## LibocalypseNow

Teacher Unions only serve the interests of themselves and the Democratic Party. They haven't served the interests of children & parents for a very long time. I just don't see any positives they add to the Public School System.


----------



## Two Thumbs

Nosmo King said:


> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nosmo King said:
> 
> 
> 
> How do I do that without being dismissed as trolling?  How about just the part about undermining worker's rights?  That is germain to the thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sure
> 
> I have yet to come across anyone in my life that has ever said they want to do away with unions for everyone b/c workers have to many rights.
> 
> I have seen them blamed for demanding excessive pay and benefits.  And THAT is a fact.
> 
> My home state of Il is going to go under, way under b/c they can not afford to pay the union pensions, never mind pay everything else.
> 
> So how is it "fair" to crush everyone else to pay for that?  How is it fair to keep a useless teacher just b/c they have tenure?
> 
> I'm just dying to know how you figure wanting children tought better is a bad thing if it means redoing the teachers union.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So, it's alright to blame union workers for asking for pay and benefits if it's thought to be excessive.  Does the same go for CEO Golden Parachute deals and bonuses?  Pensioners can be held in contempt for actually using their benefits.  But the wage disparity between management and worker is something Conservatives ignore.
Click to expand...


See, this is why I avoid conversing with certain people.  You can't stay on topic w/o wondering off into attack mode and derailing the thread.

Ok, "golden Parachutes".  Who brings in the money?  the execs do.  If they don't they get canned and the only one that get these really over the top sweet deals are the ones that have a track record of success.

My brother in law has a neighbor, HS drop out that makes $42.50/hr.  She puts windshield wipers on cars and attaches the lid to the wiper fluid.  You gonna tell me she's not over paid?


----------



## Two Thumbs

LibocalypseNow said:


> Teacher Unions only serve the interests of themselves and the Democratic Party. They haven't served the interests of children & parents for a very long time. I just don't see any positives they add to the Public School System.



The teachers union is only there for the teachers.  That's thier sole job.

the side effects they create have no meaning to them.


----------



## Mr Natural

Two Thumbs said:


> Nosmo King said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> 
> sure
> 
> I have yet to come across anyone in my life that has ever said they want to do away with unions for everyone b/c workers have to many rights.
> 
> I have seen them blamed for demanding excessive pay and benefits.  And THAT is a fact.
> 
> My home state of Il is going to go under, way under b/c they can not afford to pay the union pensions, never mind pay everything else.
> 
> So how is it "fair" to crush everyone else to pay for that?  How is it fair to keep a useless teacher just b/c they have tenure?
> 
> I'm just dying to know how you figure wanting children tought better is a bad thing if it means redoing the teachers union.
> 
> 
> 
> So, it's alright to blame union workers for asking for pay and benefits if it's thought to be excessive.  Does the same go for CEO Golden Parachute deals and bonuses?  Pensioners can be held in contempt for actually using their benefits.  But the wage disparity between management and worker is something Conservatives ignore.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> See, this is why I avoid conversing with certain people.  You can't stay on topic w/o wondering off into attack mode and derailing the thread.
> 
> Ok, "golden Parachutes".  Who brings in the money?  the execs do.  If they don't they get canned and the only one that get these really over the top sweet deals are the ones that have a track record of success.
> 
> *My brother in law has a neighbor, HS drop out that makes $42.50/hr*.  She puts windshield wipers on cars and attaches the lid to the wiper fluid.  You gonna tell me she's not over paid?
Click to expand...



Good for her!

America needs more decently compensated workers to keep the middle class strong.

Burger flippers and Wal-Mart greeters alone will not keep this economy going.


----------



## Annie

Dr.Traveler said:


> Annie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Once again I ask, what are considered 'fair wages' for teachers?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd imagine most teachers would consider their current wages "fair" provided the working environment wasn't so soul crushingly bad.  Or if it weren't for the fact that they're sent to the class deprived of any tool to maintain order.
> 
> It's when people start talking about stripping away tenure, or enacting provisions that will likely make the job that much harder that the real gripping about wages hits.  And that's a pretty fair thing.  In a free market economy, if you're asking to someone to perform a demanding job, you'd best be willing to pay them approprately if you want to keep a quality employee.  Otherwise they'll find another better paying job.  Which is what many teachers over the years have done.
Click to expand...

I've taught for the past 15 years and there hasn't been one day I thought the working environment regarding children was 'crushingly bad.' What are you referring to?

I don't think someone should keep their job forever, just because they had decent reviews for 3 years or less. Nor do I think teachers should lose their jobs on whimsy of administrator or crazy parents or one year of test scores. Those are issues that need addressing. 

Truth of the matter is that in the past 20 years you've found more private sector folks, especially lawyers, accountants, and MBA's heading into teaching than teachers heading into private sector.


----------



## Nosmo King

Two Thumbs said:


> Nosmo King said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> 
> sure
> 
> I have yet to come across anyone in my life that has ever said they want to do away with unions for everyone b/c workers have to many rights.
> 
> I have seen them blamed for demanding excessive pay and benefits.  And THAT is a fact.
> 
> My home state of Il is going to go under, way under b/c they can not afford to pay the union pensions, never mind pay everything else.
> 
> So how is it "fair" to crush everyone else to pay for that?  How is it fair to keep a useless teacher just b/c they have tenure?
> 
> I'm just dying to know how you figure wanting children tought better is a bad thing if it means redoing the teachers union.
> 
> 
> 
> So, it's alright to blame union workers for asking for pay and benefits if it's thought to be excessive.  Does the same go for CEO Golden Parachute deals and bonuses?  Pensioners can be held in contempt for actually using their benefits.  But the wage disparity between management and worker is something Conservatives ignore.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> See, this is why I avoid conversing with certain people.  You can't stay on topic w/o wondering off into attack mode and derailing the thread.
> 
> Ok, "golden Parachutes".  Who brings in the money?  the execs do.  If they don't they get canned and the only one that get these really over the top sweet deals are the ones that have a track record of success.
> 
> My brother in law has a neighbor, HS drop out that makes $42.50/hr.  She puts windshield wipers on cars and attaches the lid to the wiper fluid.  You gonna tell me she's not over paid?
Click to expand...

that $42.50 an hour.  How much is in benefits and how much is in net pay?

And isn't it great that she can make a living wage?  Imagine her working in China.  Or maybe that's what Conservatives really want.  A general lowering of our American standard of living just to increase profits and fund those golden parachutes.


----------



## bodecea

LibocalypseNow said:


> Charles_Main said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dr.Traveler said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, he is.  He's exempted the public sector unions that supported him in election bid.  If he were serious about balancing the budget, it would all be on the table.  It isn't.  Public sector unions that supported him got passed over while those that stood up to him are punished.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He exempted unions that supported him eh? Wow yeah shocker, politicians never do anything like that. I mean Obama never did.
> 
> lol
> 
> What ever.
> 
> You people will cry and scream Nazi at every turn when ever a responsible leader tries to make hard Budget cuts. To you people the only answer is print more money and keep giving it away to under performing unions.
> 
> The Teachers are failing to teach our kids to a level acceptable, can you say the same about the Police and Fire Unions?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes Teachers are under-performing for the most part. It's time for Teacher Unions to just go away. Good riddance.
Click to expand...


Teachers are under-performing?    I'm quite sure you are much better at teaching.   How much classroom time do you have in front of public school students, Libo?


----------



## bodecea

ScreamingEagle said:


> Dr.Traveler said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ScreamingEagle said:
> 
> 
> 
> ....and give the power back to the parents in a community.....(most) parents aren't the problem.....parents today are pretty much gagged by the powers-that-be in the education system today....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Parents wield most of the power in school systems through threats (or actual implementation of) lawsuits and outright bullying of spineless administrators.
> 
> The really good parents are pretty screwed.  The norm now is that both parents work full time jobs.  Once that became the norm, it became pretty hard for parents to be actively involved.  The majority only check in when little timmy gets an "F", and only check in then to threaten or bully timmy's teacher into giving him a "C".
> 
> A lot of folks here complain about social promotion and grade inflation.  What they should know is that most of that is because parents _demanded it!_  And when they didn't get it, they sued.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Bullshit....most parents don't stand a chance against "the system".....they have to organize in big groups to even be heard...
> 
> ...lawsuits are a completely different animal.....is this really how most normal people want to resolve their issues in their communities.....?
Click to expand...


Not true.  Parents get final say on their child's placement.  Parents get final say on their child being retained.  Parents get final say on their child's testing.  Parents get final say on pretty much everything about their child's education.   MOST parents don't bother.   SOME parents put unrealistic demands on schools...and those demands are met anyways...even if it causes the class to suffer...but since MOST parents do nothing, it happens.

I told the story of my friend and that ED child.  IF the other parents complained to the school and district, something could be done....but they don't and the teacher is powerless.


----------



## Two Thumbs

Nosmo King said:


> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nosmo King said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, it's alright to blame union workers for asking for pay and benefits if it's thought to be excessive.  Does the same go for CEO Golden Parachute deals and bonuses?  Pensioners can be held in contempt for actually using their benefits.  But the wage disparity between management and worker is something Conservatives ignore.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See, this is why I avoid conversing with certain people.  You can't stay on topic w/o wondering off into attack mode and derailing the thread.
> 
> Ok, "golden Parachutes".  Who brings in the money?  the execs do.  If they don't they get canned and the only one that get these really over the top sweet deals are the ones that have a track record of success.
> 
> My brother in law has a neighbor, HS drop out that makes $42.50/hr.  She puts windshield wipers on cars and attaches the lid to the wiper fluid.  You gonna tell me she's not over paid?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> that $42.50 an hour.  How much is in benefits and how much is in net pay?
> 
> And isn't it great that she can make a living wage?  Imagine her working in China.  Or maybe that's what Conservatives really want.  A general lowering of our American standard of living just to increase profits and fund those golden parachutes.
Click to expand...


Are you intentionally being annoying?

$42.50 an hour is $42.50 an hour.  Union members never bother to mention the cost of everything else b/c they don't pay it themselves, so they don't know.

Living wage?  I'd be willing to bet she could live on $20/hr, and if she did twice as many people could afford to buy new cars. (ballparking) b/c the price could come down, which would increase demand which would force the company that employed her to hire more people, who could then buy more cars.

Look I know math is hard, and that golden chute has a glare.  but honestly now;  Is her job worth $42.50 an hour?


----------



## chanel

xsited1 said:


> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kudos to new Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker!
> 
> More brave Politicians need to start standing up to the corrupt Teacher Unions. The Teacher Unions have brought our Public School System to its knees. It has become all about them. It's all about getting that cash for them. They don't care about the kids anymore. They also only want to force their politics and social experimenting on the kids at this point. Their number one goal these last few decades has been to brainwash the children and create good little future adult Democrats. They stopped teaching the kids the basics of Education a long time ago.
> 
> Teacher Unions now only do far more harm than they do good. It's time for them to go away. The Public School System will be so much better off when they're gone. The Kids could actually start learning again. American kids continue to fall further & further behind other far less developed and less wealthy nations. I do blame the Teacher Unions for this. They have become too obsessed with the cash and creating good little future adult Democrats. They have lost their way. Get rid of the Teacher Unions and our Public School System might just be able to be salvaged.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know dozens of private school teachers and none of them are in a union.  I wonder why they are necessary in public schools.  Anyone know?
Click to expand...


My kids go to Catholic school. They have a union.


----------



## LibocalypseNow

All i see is more deflection and whining coming from Teachers. They just refuse to take any responsibility for our failing Public School System. They had a big hand in our Public School System crash. Others had a hand in it as well. If it's all about the money & politics for you,then you should look for another line of work. The kids shouldn't be forced to suffer from greed & political activism. We are falling way behind many other nations in Education. Many of these nations have far less money & resources than we do. So why are they passing us? Teachers need to look at themselves in the mirror more often. It's not always someone else's fault. They play a part too. It's time for them to begin accepting this.


----------



## bodecea

LibocalypseNow said:


> All i see is more deflection and whining coming from Teachers. They just refuse to take any responsibility for our failing Public School System. They had a big hand in our Public School System crash. Others had a hand in it as well. If it's all about the money & politics for you,then you should look for another line of work. The kids shouldn't be forced to suffer from greed & political activism. We are falling way behind many other nations in Education. Many of these nations have far less money & resources than we do. So why are they passing us? Teachers need to look at themselves in the mirror more often. It's not always someone else's fault. They play a part too. It's time for them to begin accepting this.



Since you see a problem with public education caused by teachers PLUS you think that teachers have it quite easy....why are you not stepping up to become a teacher and fix things?   IF it is such a choice job, why are you not becoming a teacher?


----------



## Dr.Traveler

Annie said:


> I don't think someone should keep their job forever, just because they had decent reviews for 3 years or less.



This is not how tenure works.  It is a popular misconception of how tenure works.


----------



## Dr.Traveler

Annie said:


> I've taught for the past 15 years and there hasn't been one day I thought the working environment regarding children was 'crushingly bad.' What are you referring to?



I've seen a fair number of graduates head into the public education system with a large amount of optimism....and re-enter school as an MBA candidate within 3 years totally crushed by the system.  These weren't lazy kids by any stretch.  Many were among the best and brightest I'd seen.  They had pure hearts, clean hands, and a desire to help students learn.  And between parents and administration they didn't last 3 years.

I've also seen a fair number of public school teachers head into grad school in the hopes of landing a lectureship at the college level telling horror stories the likes of which would turn your hair grey.

Now, I'll freely admit I'm in a state where the public education is completely out of whack.  My great state is always #49 or #2 depending on how you order the list.  But you're not going to have a chance to change that if your young, enthusiastic, well trained new teachers burn out in 3 years or less.

Something has to give.  Either you need to massively rework the compensation for teaching, or you need to massively rework the teaching environment.


----------



## WillowTree

bodecea said:


> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> All i see is more deflection and whining coming from Teachers. They just refuse to take any responsibility for our failing Public School System. They had a big hand in our Public School System crash. Others had a hand in it as well. If it's all about the money & politics for you,then you should look for another line of work. The kids shouldn't be forced to suffer from greed & political activism. We are falling way behind many other nations in Education. Many of these nations have far less money & resources than we do. So why are they passing us? Teachers need to look at themselves in the mirror more often. It's not always someone else's fault. They play a part too. It's time for them to begin accepting this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since you see a problem with public education caused by teachers PLUS you think that teachers have it quite easy....why are you not stepping up to become a teacher and fix things?   IF it is such a choice job, why are you not becoming a teacher?
Click to expand...


Idiot. You had a problem with health care, when do you get your MD?


----------



## boedicca

LibocalypseNow said:


> All i see is more deflection and whining coming from Teachers. They just refuse to take any responsibility for our failing Public School System. They had a big hand in our Public School System crash. Others had a hand in it as well. If it's all about the money & politics for you,then you should look for another line of work. The kids shouldn't be forced to suffer from greed & political activism. We are falling way behind many other nations in Education. Many of these nations have far less money & resources than we do. So why are they passing us? Teachers need to look at themselves in the mirror more often. It's not always someone else's fault. They play a part too. It's time for them to begin accepting this.




I think it's great.  I hope more and more teachers go on strike so that more and more taxpayers and parents say enough and pressure their governors to decertify the unions.


----------



## EriktheRed

> *Just Go Away Teacher Unions! *



Sorry, they don't seem to be inclined to do that. In fact the protesters are reportedly 4000 strong today in the WI capitol building.


----------



## chanel

Unions are not the problem is you are talking about student achievemenrt. If rthe concern is pension and benefits and state economies, you may have a point. Ponzi scheme for sure.

But the reason students are unskilled amd have no work ethic, have NOTHING to do with unions. Entitlement mentallity is a national disgrace.


----------



## boedicca

Well, it can be easily argued that certain (if not all) unions actually promote an entitlement attitude, and thus are a cause of poor student achievement.


----------



## bodecea

boedicca said:


> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> All i see is more deflection and whining coming from Teachers. They just refuse to take any responsibility for our failing Public School System. They had a big hand in our Public School System crash. Others had a hand in it as well. If it's all about the money & politics for you,then you should look for another line of work. The kids shouldn't be forced to suffer from greed & political activism. We are falling way behind many other nations in Education. Many of these nations have far less money & resources than we do. So why are they passing us? Teachers need to look at themselves in the mirror more often. It's not always someone else's fault. They play a part too. It's time for them to begin accepting this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think it's great.  I hope more and more teachers go on strike so that more and more taxpayers and parents say enough and pressure their governors to decertify the unions.
Click to expand...

Hey, yeah...do that in your state.   Then reap the benefits of having your children taught by whoever they can get for the lowest bid....I'm sure this is something you will relish.


----------



## JFK_USA

xsited1 said:


> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kudos to new Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker!
> 
> More brave Politicians need to start standing up to the corrupt Teacher Unions. The Teacher Unions have brought our Public School System to its knees. It has become all about them. It's all about getting that cash for them. They don't care about the kids anymore. They also only want to force their politics and social experimenting on the kids at this point. Their number one goal these last few decades has been to brainwash the children and create good little future adult Democrats. They stopped teaching the kids the basics of Education a long time ago.
> 
> Teacher Unions now only do far more harm than they do good. It's time for them to go away. The Public School System will be so much better off when they're gone. The Kids could actually start learning again. American kids continue to fall further & further behind other far less developed and less wealthy nations. I do blame the Teacher Unions for this. They have become too obsessed with the cash and creating good little future adult Democrats. They have lost their way. Get rid of the Teacher Unions and our Public School System might just be able to be salvaged.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know dozens of private school teachers and none of them are in a union.  I wonder why they are necessary in public schools.  Anyone know?
Click to expand...


Actually because private schools don't pay as well. One friend of mine gets paid 18K to teach at a private school. Another teaches for 28K at Public schools. The hardest working teachers, the best teachers get alot of those public school jobs. Its a known fact in the teaching circles that private schools offer no advantage and only the perceived advantage because you paid for it. Thats it. They don't get taught any differently, they don't get tested differently, no difference. 

Its a huge scam private schools are.


----------



## bodecea

JFK_USA said:


> xsited1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kudos to new Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker!
> 
> More brave Politicians need to start standing up to the corrupt Teacher Unions. The Teacher Unions have brought our Public School System to its knees. It has become all about them. It's all about getting that cash for them. They don't care about the kids anymore. They also only want to force their politics and social experimenting on the kids at this point. Their number one goal these last few decades has been to brainwash the children and create good little future adult Democrats. They stopped teaching the kids the basics of Education a long time ago.
> 
> Teacher Unions now only do far more harm than they do good. It's time for them to go away. The Public School System will be so much better off when they're gone. The Kids could actually start learning again. American kids continue to fall further & further behind other far less developed and less wealthy nations. I do blame the Teacher Unions for this. They have become too obsessed with the cash and creating good little future adult Democrats. They have lost their way. Get rid of the Teacher Unions and our Public School System might just be able to be salvaged.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know dozens of private school teachers and none of them are in a union.  I wonder why they are necessary in public schools.  Anyone know?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Actually because private schools don't pay as well. One friend of mine gets paid 18K to teach at a private school. Another teaches for 28K at Public schools. The hardest working teachers, the best teachers get alot of those public school jobs. Its a known fact in the teaching circles that private schools offer no advantage and only the perceived advantage because you paid for it. Thats it. They don't get taught any differently, they don't get tested differently, no difference.
> 
> Its a huge scam private schools are.
Click to expand...


It's like this:

Two football coaches...

Coach A can pick his team, the best of the best...pick who tries out, pick who makes the team, who stays on the team, and who gets the most play time and they pay him to play.

Coach B has to let everyone play who lives in his area, even those who don't want to play football...ESPECIALLY those who don't want to play football.

Now the nation looks at the two coaches and their records and points to Coach B calling him a lousy coach and it's his fault his team cannot win in football.


----------



## Wicked Jester

LibocalypseNow said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers have it pretty good compared to many other occupations. Yet Teachers seem to do the most whining & complaining. They get all weekends off,several weeks of paid Holiday time off,and they get their Summers off. That just doesn't seem so horrible. Of all professions,Teachers by far do the most whining & complaining. Look around America and see how many Americans enjoy all weekends off,several weeks of paid Holiday time off,and entire Summers off. So Teachers do have it pretty good. They need to slow down on their whiny greed. It does come down to the Teacher Unions in the end. They force their members to whine & complain so much. Give em the boot and our Schools might just recover.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers earn far less on average than non-teachers with the same level of education required for the job.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That may be true but they receive other great benefits no other occupations have. All Weekends off,several weeks of paid Holiday Time off,and entire Summers off? That seems pretty nice to most outside observers. Look around America and see how many other Americans enjoy those kinds of benefits. The Teacher Unions are only trouble at this point. They've outlived their usefulness. They only stand for greed and political activism at this point. It's time for them to get the boot once and for all. Our kids deserve better.
Click to expand...

Funny thing about these douchebag teachers union types is that they refuse to show up for work and the students aren't being educated. The parents of those students now need to rearrange their schedules, too include taking time off from work themselves, to accomodate the fact their children aren't in school.

Anybody supporting these teachers and their soon to be busted union is a friggin' idiot, nothing more.


----------



## LibocalypseNow

Most Teachers i run into just bitch bitch bitch. Most other American Workers would love having every Weekend off,several weeks of Holiday time off,and entire Summers off. Teachers do have it pretty good. I think most people are pretty sick of hearing them bitching & whining all the time. They don't care about the kids anymore. It's all just "Me! Me! Me!" for them at this point. Things would probably improve immediately if the Teacher Union hacks were dumped.


----------



## Wicked Jester

bodecea said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> All i see is more deflection and whining coming from Teachers. They just refuse to take any responsibility for our failing Public School System. They had a big hand in our Public School System crash. Others had a hand in it as well. If it's all about the money & politics for you,then you should look for another line of work. The kids shouldn't be forced to suffer from greed & political activism. We are falling way behind many other nations in Education. Many of these nations have far less money & resources than we do. So why are they passing us? Teachers need to look at themselves in the mirror more often. It's not always someone else's fault. They play a part too. It's time for them to begin accepting this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think it's great.  I hope more and more teachers go on strike so that more and more taxpayers and parents say enough and pressure their governors to decertify the unions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hey, yeah...do that in your state.   Then reap the benefits of having your children taught by whoever they can get for the lowest bid....I'm sure this is something you will relish.
Click to expand...

Ya' mean like reaping the benefits of having these unions defending crappy teachers who should be fired?

After all, those dirtbag union bosses just hate losing due paying morons, whether they are incompetent or not.......It depletes their bottom lines, and causes less dollars lining their corrupt pockets.


----------



## JFK_USA

LibocalypseNow said:


> The Teacher Unions are the root cause of most of the problems in our Public School System. Too much greed & politics coming from them at this point. They have lost their way. They have neglected the kids for too many years. It's all about them now. Just get more cash and get more Democrats elected. That's all the Teacher Unions are good for these days. They do nothing for the kids anymore. If the Public Schools dropped them,i guarantee things would immediately improve. The kids don't need all this political activism and greed. That stuff never had a place in our Schools. It's actually pretty depressing observing what the Teacher Unions have done to our Public Schools. It really is time for them to just go away.



That is a HUGE LIE. Never did I ever see a union leader at my school telling me or my other teachers telling them what to teach. 

The problem is PARENTS. Seriously, we have to try to teach kids for 45 minutes while they aren't paying attention, they are talking to each other. Then you get the cool kid who never does his homework and constantly disrupt classrooms and then their parents come into parent teacher conference and I shoot them straight and they say "Oh not my precious bradley, he's special and you're just not teaching him right."

I got 45 minutes to teach 28 kids. I don't got time to personalize lesson plans for each student. The work world doesn't personalize their training program, it is what it is and you follow it. You're kid isn't special, and maybe if you made sure your kids got their homework done, maybe they wouldn't be so stupid. Quit trying to make me take responsibility for your job. You have a job to take care of your own kid. They better shape up because the real world doesn't care how special your kid is.


----------



## ScreamingEagle

Nothing wrong with unions per se attempting to help workers get ahead....however the system breaks down when a public union allies with irresponsible vote-hungry politicians who stick the public with outraegeous bills that the public cannot afford to pay...


----------



## JFK_USA

bodecea said:


> JFK_USA said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> xsited1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know dozens of private school teachers and none of them are in a union.  I wonder why they are necessary in public schools.  Anyone know?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually because private schools don't pay as well. One friend of mine gets paid 18K to teach at a private school. Another teaches for 28K at Public schools. The hardest working teachers, the best teachers get alot of those public school jobs. Its a known fact in the teaching circles that private schools offer no advantage and only the perceived advantage because you paid for it. Thats it. They don't get taught any differently, they don't get tested differently, no difference.
> 
> Its a huge scam private schools are.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's like this:
> 
> Two football coaches...
> 
> Coach A can pick his team, the best of the best...pick who tries out, pick who makes the team, who stays on the team, and who gets the most play time and they pay him to play.
> 
> Coach B has to let everyone play who lives in his area, even those who don't want to play football...ESPECIALLY those who don't want to play football.
> 
> Now the nation looks at the two coaches and their records and points to Coach B calling him a lousy coach and it's his fault his team cannot win in football.
Click to expand...


So kids shouldn't have a right to an education. And actually here in Missouri, the Public schools hold their own very well in football so you fail.


----------



## Wicked Jester

LibocalypseNow said:


> Most Teachers i run into just bitch bitch bitch. Most other American Workers would love having every Weekend off,several weeks of Holiday time off,and entire Summers off. Teachers do have it pretty good. I think most people are pretty sick of hearing them bitching & whining all the time. They don't care about the kids anymore. It's all just "Me! Me! Me!" for them at this point. Things would probably improve immediately if the Teacher Union hacks were dumped.


True that.......Did ya' see how a bunch of those dirtbag teachers brought a bunch of their students to the protests, and when the students were asked what they were protesting the majority said they didn't really know?

Funny shit indeed!.


----------



## Annie

Dr.Traveler said:


> Annie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think someone should keep their job forever, just because they had decent reviews for 3 years or less.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is not how tenure works.  It is a popular misconception of how tenure works.
Click to expand...


No, it's not a misconception in primary and secondary positions. That is when tenure is given. After that, it's very difficult to get rid of teachers. That's a fact, as of today.


----------



## N4mddissent

LibocalypseNow said:


> Kudos to new Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker!
> 
> More brave Politicians need to start standing up to the corrupt Teacher Unions. The Teacher Unions have brought our Public School System to its knees. It has become all about them. It's all about getting that cash for them. They don't care about the kids anymore. They also only want to force their politics and social experimenting on the kids at this point. Their number one goal these last few decades has been to brainwash the children and create good little future adult Democrats. They stopped teaching the kids the basics of Education a long time ago.
> 
> Teacher Unions now only do far more harm than they do good. It's time for them to go away. The Public School System will be so much better off when they're gone. The Kids could actually start learning again. American kids continue to fall further & further behind other far less developed and less wealthy nations. I do blame the Teacher Unions for this. They have become too obsessed with the cash and creating good little future adult Democrats. They have lost their way. Get rid of the Teacher Unions and our Public School System might just be salvaged.



States with weak teacher unions have even lower test scores than ones with stronger unions. In any case, unions are not the problem with our education system.  People looking everywhere other than shit parenting for someone to blame are the real problem.


----------



## chanel

Good teaching only accounts for one third of a student"s success. Private schools understand  this. Why is that so hard for the rest?

Is it that because trhe other variables are beyond govt control?


----------



## Wicked Jester

N4mddissent said:


> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kudos to new Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker!
> 
> More brave Politicians need to start standing up to the corrupt Teacher Unions. The Teacher Unions have brought our Public School System to its knees. It has become all about them. It's all about getting that cash for them. They don't care about the kids anymore. They also only want to force their politics and social experimenting on the kids at this point. Their number one goal these last few decades has been to brainwash the children and create good little future adult Democrats. They stopped teaching the kids the basics of Education a long time ago.
> 
> Teacher Unions now only do far more harm than they do good. It's time for them to go away. The Public School System will be so much better off when they're gone. The Kids could actually start learning again. American kids continue to fall further & further behind other far less developed and less wealthy nations. I do blame the Teacher Unions for this. They have become too obsessed with the cash and creating good little future adult Democrats. They have lost their way. Get rid of the Teacher Unions and our Public School System might just be salvaged.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> States with weak teacher unions have even lower test scores than ones with stronger unions. In any case, unions are not the problem with our education system.  People looking everywhere other than shit parenting for someone to blame are the real problem.
Click to expand...

And teachers (non union) in our kids private school, and other surrounding private schools in the area, have far higher test scores and graduation rates than the unionized teachers in surrounding public schools.

Ya' see, those teachers don't have a union to back them up if their competence is called into question. They have a higher standard to live up to. They fail, they are rightfully shit canned and sent packing. That's the way it should be.


----------



## JFK_USA

N4mddissent said:


> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kudos to new Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker!
> 
> More brave Politicians need to start standing up to the corrupt Teacher Unions. The Teacher Unions have brought our Public School System to its knees. It has become all about them. It's all about getting that cash for them. They don't care about the kids anymore. They also only want to force their politics and social experimenting on the kids at this point. Their number one goal these last few decades has been to brainwash the children and create good little future adult Democrats. They stopped teaching the kids the basics of Education a long time ago.
> 
> Teacher Unions now only do far more harm than they do good. It's time for them to go away. The Public School System will be so much better off when they're gone. The Kids could actually start learning again. American kids continue to fall further & further behind other far less developed and less wealthy nations. I do blame the Teacher Unions for this. They have become too obsessed with the cash and creating good little future adult Democrats. They have lost their way. Get rid of the Teacher Unions and our Public School System might just be salvaged.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> States with weak teacher unions have even lower test scores than ones with stronger unions. In any case, unions are not the problem with our education system.  People looking everywhere other than shit parenting for someone to blame are the real problem.
Click to expand...




Bravo. Excellent post.


----------



## JFK_USA

Wicked Jester said:


> N4mddissent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kudos to new Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker!
> 
> More brave Politicians need to start standing up to the corrupt Teacher Unions. The Teacher Unions have brought our Public School System to its knees. It has become all about them. It's all about getting that cash for them. They don't care about the kids anymore. They also only want to force their politics and social experimenting on the kids at this point. Their number one goal these last few decades has been to brainwash the children and create good little future adult Democrats. They stopped teaching the kids the basics of Education a long time ago.
> 
> Teacher Unions now only do far more harm than they do good. It's time for them to go away. The Public School System will be so much better off when they're gone. The Kids could actually start learning again. American kids continue to fall further & further behind other far less developed and less wealthy nations. I do blame the Teacher Unions for this. They have become too obsessed with the cash and creating good little future adult Democrats. They have lost their way. Get rid of the Teacher Unions and our Public School System might just be salvaged.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> States with weak teacher unions have even lower test scores than ones with stronger unions. In any case, unions are not the problem with our education system.  People looking everywhere other than shit parenting for someone to blame are the real problem.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And teachers (non union) in our kids private school, and other surrounding private schools in the area, have far higher test scores and graduation rates than the unionized teachers in surrounding public schools.
> 
> Ya' see, those teachers don't have a union to back them up if their competence is called into question. They have a higher standard to live up to. They fail, they are rightfully shit canned and sent packing. That's the way it should be.
Click to expand...


And they do. Trust me, we fired teachers before for consistently bad scores. But its after a pattern of 3 straight years of bad scores since they only test 1 time a year. And we fire. 

Alot of the problems in schools are shitty parents who don't do their job and teach their kids. You are putting the blame on people that have no control over the kids 120 hour of a 162 hour week.


----------



## Annie

Dr.Traveler said:


> Annie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've taught for the past 15 years and there hasn't been one day I thought the working environment regarding children was 'crushingly bad.' What are you referring to?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've seen a fair number of graduates head into the public education system with a large amount of optimism....and re-enter school as an MBA candidate within 3 years totally crushed by the system.  These weren't lazy kids by any stretch.  Many were among the best and brightest I'd seen.  They had pure hearts, clean hands, and a desire to help students learn.  And between parents and administration they didn't last 3 years.
> 
> I've also seen a fair number of public school teachers head into grad school in the hopes of landing a lectureship at the college level telling horror stories the likes of which would turn your hair grey.
> 
> Now, I'll freely admit I'm in a state where the public education is completely out of whack.  My great state is always #49 or #2 depending on how you order the list.  But you're not going to have a chance to change that if your young, enthusiastic, well trained new teachers burn out in 3 years or less.
> 
> Something has to give.  Either you need to massively rework the compensation for teaching, or you need to massively rework the teaching environment.
Click to expand...


Seems you already know that you've made a couple logical fallacies here. Over generalization and inductive reasoning without substantiation.


----------



## rhodescholar

NYcarbineer said:


> What educational system are you a product of, besides talk radio?



Nice try.  The public school system in the US is awful because of the work rules and obscene expenses borne by municipalities having to redistribute tax dollars from books, materials, etc to pay for teacher perks, salaries, benefits, pensions, etc.

After the movie "Waiting for Superman", it should be quite clear to all those without an agenda that the teachers unions, and many of the teachers themselves, see the public school systems as job creation instruments - not teaching centers for our future generations.

Along with the FACT that US students consistently score at the bottom of all developed nations' rankings despite enjoying a 2 or 3 - to one spending advantage.

Are facts important to you?


----------



## Annie

LibocalypseNow said:


> Most Teachers i run into just bitch bitch bitch. Most other American Workers would love having every Weekend off,several weeks of Holiday time off,and entire Summers off. Teachers do have it pretty good. I think most people are pretty sick of hearing them bitching & whining all the time. They don't care about the kids anymore. It's all just "Me! Me! Me!" for them at this point. Things would probably improve immediately if the Teacher Union hacks were dumped.



I don't think there are too many posters that can meet you with broad strokes, from the right or left. Few if any links, just your own positions. I agree with your premise, but certainly not how you get there. 

There are quite a few teachers on this board, none of whom I hear bitching all the time. There's one that does bitch quite a lot, but may be where she's teaching that makes that not bitching, but informing about her area.


----------



## Wicked Jester

JFK_USA said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> N4mddissent said:
> 
> 
> 
> States with weak teacher unions have even lower test scores than ones with stronger unions. In any case, unions are not the problem with our education system.  People looking everywhere other than shit parenting for someone to blame are the real problem.
> 
> 
> 
> And teachers (non union) in our kids private school, and other surrounding private schools in the area, have far higher test scores and graduation rates than the unionized teachers in surrounding public schools.
> 
> Ya' see, those teachers don't have a union to back them up if their competence is called into question. They have a higher standard to live up to. They fail, they are rightfully shit canned and sent packing. That's the way it should be.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And they do. Trust me, we fired teachers before for consistently bad scores. But its after a pattern of 3 straight years of bad scores since they only test 1 time a year. And we fire.
> 
> Alot of the problems in schools are shitty parents who don't do their job and teach their kids. You are putting the blame on people that have no control over the kids 120 hour of a 162 hour week.
Click to expand...

Fact is, back when I was in public school, teachers had control of their classrroms. 28 students were tought in 45 minutes, no problem.

I'm putting the blame exactly where it belongs, on the unions who do everything in their power to defend incomptence. Who will drain a school districts financial resources by doggedly fighting firings. My cousin is a principal of a JR. high up in Monterey. We discussed this very issue over the holidays. She's had 4 teachers who arew blatantly incompetent on her radar for over 5 years. The union vociferously fight tooth and nail whenever the district tries to fire their incompetent asses.


----------



## The T

These Unions are being asked to contribute more to their pensions instead of taxpayers shouldering the burden. It's that or be let go.

Thier demands are too much and unsustainable. If I were the Governor of Wisconson? I wouldn't put up with this too much longer. These people should be glad they have a job and should knuckle under like everyone else is having to.

And look for this to spread to other States with red ink on the books. This is just the start of coming events.


----------



## uscitizen

I saw a guy on Fox today saying that unions are the reason our education system is where it is.
That is just absurd.


----------



## Charles_Main

LibocalypseNow said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers have it pretty good compared to many other occupations. Yet Teachers seem to do the most whining & complaining. They get all weekends off,several weeks of paid Holiday time off,and they get their Summers off. That just doesn't seem so horrible. Of all professions,Teachers by far do the most whining & complaining. Look around America and see how many Americans enjoy all weekends off,several weeks of paid Holiday time off,and entire Summers off. So Teachers do have it pretty good. They need to slow down on their whiny greed. It does come down to the Teacher Unions in the end. They force their members to whine & complain so much. Give em the boot and our Schools might just recover.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers earn far less on average than non-teachers with the same level of education required for the job.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That may be true but they receive other great benefits no other occupations have. All Weekends off,*several weeks of paid Holiday Time off,and entire Summers off? *That seems pretty nice to most outside observers. Look around America and see how many other Americans enjoy those kinds of benefits. The Teacher Unions are only trouble at this point. They've outlived their usefulness. They only stand for greed and political activism at this point. It's time for them to get the boot once and for all. Our kids deserve better.
Click to expand...


you hit the nail on the head right there. Not only do they get great benefits, and retirement. Most teachers have about 4 Months a year off. So they are often able to work in those 4 months in other jobs. People talk about their Salaries as if they are annual when in fact they are paid that amount for 2/3rds of a year.


----------



## bodecea

JFK_USA said:


> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Teacher Unions are the root cause of most of the problems in our Public School System. Too much greed & politics coming from them at this point. They have lost their way. They have neglected the kids for too many years. It's all about them now. Just get more cash and get more Democrats elected. That's all the Teacher Unions are good for these days. They do nothing for the kids anymore. If the Public Schools dropped them,i guarantee things would immediately improve. The kids don't need all this political activism and greed. That stuff never had a place in our Schools. It's actually pretty depressing observing what the Teacher Unions have done to our Public Schools. It really is time for them to just go away.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is a HUGE LIE. Never did I ever see a union leader at my school telling me or my other teachers telling them what to teach.
> 
> The problem is PARENTS. Seriously, we have to try to teach kids for 45 minutes while they aren't paying attention, they are talking to each other. Then you get the cool kid who never does his homework and constantly disrupt classrooms and then their parents come into parent teacher conference and I shoot them straight and they say "Oh not my precious bradley, he's special and you're just not teaching him right."
> 
> I got 45 minutes to teach 28 kids. I don't got time to personalize lesson plans for each student. The work world doesn't personalize their training program, it is what it is and you follow it. You're kid isn't special, and maybe if you made sure your kids got their homework done, maybe they wouldn't be so stupid. Quit trying to make me take responsibility for your job. You have a job to take care of your own kid. They better shape up because the real world doesn't care how special your kid is.
Click to expand...


You are lucky it is 28 kids.  The district my daughter is in it's 32 to a class...and until they are filled, they don't hire anyone else...even if that means misplacing students.

My brother was in a district where they built a new science wing and he pointed out that there were only seats at the built in lab tables for 32 (that district did not have a cap written into their contracts).  He was assured that 32 seats would be all they needed.   Since he moved into that new wing, he's has as many as 45 and as few as 31...and has been told to have them sit on the counters or bring in folding chairs....and still supervise labs with bunsen burners, scaples, etc.  My aunt was a long time Physics teacher in VA when she had a student purposefully stick a paperclip in a electrical socket at his lab station.  She saw him do it, the other kids saw him do it...but the parents tried to sue the district and demanded she be fired...fortunately, a mediator with a lick of sense looked at the kid during a meeting and said that he knew the kid did it on purpose and there was no sense lying about it.  If it had not been for him, my aunt would have lost her job after over 25 years in that district.


----------



## peach174

I don't know why these people can't get it that their unions are making the states broke by having the taxpayer pay for their health care and retirements. All the Gov is asking is for a fare balance here to pay for their own health care somewhat just like all the rest of us have to do. And the bargaining negations that the union bosses have gotten is way out  of control and unreasonable.
It has to happen for all of the states that have this type of system.
Why don't they get it, it's either help to pay for your services or eventually theses services will go away without any money in the future.
And getting the kids involved is just down right wrong.


----------



## bodecea

Charles_Main said:


> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers earn far less on average than non-teachers with the same level of education required for the job.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That may be true but they receive other great benefits no other occupations have. All Weekends off,*several weeks of paid Holiday Time off,and entire Summers off? *That seems pretty nice to most outside observers. Look around America and see how many other Americans enjoy those kinds of benefits. The Teacher Unions are only trouble at this point. They've outlived their usefulness. They only stand for greed and political activism at this point. It's time for them to get the boot once and for all. Our kids deserve better.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> you hit the nail on the head right there. Not only do they get great benefits, and retirement. Most teachers have about 4 Months a year off. So they are often able to work in those 4 months in other jobs. People talk about their Salaries as if they are annual when in fact they are paid that amount for 2/3rds of a year.
Click to expand...


yes they are...and they are still the lowest paid professionals (requiring minimum of 5 years of college and certification) out there.


----------



## The T

uscitizen said:


> I saw a guy on Fox today saying that unions are the reason our education system is where it is.
> That is just absurd.


 
It's true. Unions are more interested in their power over others and politics than they are about the people they supposedly represent.

Unions are Corporations that deal with chattle...people, and their power over them. In Statist parlence? "Big Labour".


----------



## bodecea

peach174 said:


> I don't know why these people can't get it that their unions are making the states broke by having the taxpayer pay for their health care and retirements. All the Gov is asking is for a fare balance here to pay for their own health care somewhat just like all the rest of us have to do. And the bargaining negations that the union bosses have gotten is way out  of control and unreasonable.
> It has to happen for all of the states that have this type of system.
> What don't they get it, it's either help to pay for your services or eventually theses services will go away without any money in the future.
> And getting the kids involved is just down right wrong.



DId they not already take a cut last year in pay and health benefits?


----------



## bodecea

uscitizen said:


> I saw a guy on Fox today saying that unions are the reason our education system is where it is.
> That is just absurd.



They need a whipping boy.


----------



## Wicked Jester

uscitizen said:


> I saw a guy on Fox today saying that unions are the reason our education system is where it is.
> That is just absurd.


And he was absolutely right.

Just look at the disparity in test scores and graduation rates between non union private and charter school teachers to unionized public school teachers.

Those numbers tell the real story. Those numbers are what the unions fear most.


----------



## Samson

Annie said:


> Dr.Traveler said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Annie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've taught for the past 15 years and there hasn't been one day I thought the working environment regarding children was 'crushingly bad.' What are you referring to?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've seen a fair number of graduates head into the public education system with a large amount of optimism....and re-enter school as an MBA candidate within 3 years totally crushed by the system.  These weren't lazy kids by any stretch.  Many were among the best and brightest I'd seen.  They had pure hearts, clean hands, and a desire to help students learn.  And between parents and administration they didn't last 3 years.
> 
> I've also seen a fair number of public school teachers head into grad school in the hopes of landing a lectureship at the college level telling horror stories the likes of which would turn your hair grey.
> 
> Now, I'll freely admit I'm in a state where the public education is completely out of whack.  My great state is always #49 or #2 depending on how you order the list.  But you're not going to have a chance to change that if your young, enthusiastic, well trained new teachers burn out in 3 years or less.
> 
> Something has to give.  Either you need to massively rework the compensation for teaching, or you need to massively rework the teaching environment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Seems you already know that you've made a couple logical fallacies here. Over generalization and inductive reasoning without substantiation.
Click to expand...


I think, in a rather awkward way, there's a point to Dr. Travler's comment that many teachers don't last more than 3 years, but it's not necessarily because of a "crushingly bad" work environment.

Other factors right off the top of my head:

1. Female teachers get married, have kids, and become stay-at-home moms
2. Teaching allows many to develop marketable skills (organization, presentation, etc.) and a job refence, that allows them to find alternative jobs (regardless of whatever the work environment thay might have experienced teaching).
3. Male teachers in particular, find they cannot support their new families on a teacher's pay/benefits (there is no "matching 401(k), Heath Care benefits often suck)

I find compensation for teaching to usually be quite fair DURING THE FIRST 3 years, particularly when you consider that they work little more than 185 days/year. However often salary schedules begin to level out 3-5 years after they are hired: There is no premium put on experience, and I'm not certain there should be. After all, how much better is a teacher with 5 years experience than a teacher with 15 years experience?


----------



## The T

Wicked Jester said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> I saw a guy on Fox today saying that unions are the reason our education system is where it is.
> That is just absurd.
> 
> 
> 
> And he was absolutely right.
> 
> Just look at the disparity in test scores and graduation rates between non union private and charter school teachers to unionized public school teachers.
> 
> Those numbers tell the real story. Those numbers are what the unions fear most.
Click to expand...

 
And why they and Statist politicians are against real choice for parents to get the best education for their children. It cuts into their profits. (And yes I mean money and influence).


----------



## Samson

bodecea said:


> Charles_Main said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> That may be true but they receive other great benefits no other occupations have. All Weekends off,*several weeks of paid Holiday Time off,and entire Summers off? *That seems pretty nice to most outside observers. Look around America and see how many other Americans enjoy those kinds of benefits. The Teacher Unions are only trouble at this point. They've outlived their usefulness. They only stand for greed and political activism at this point. It's time for them to get the boot once and for all. Our kids deserve better.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you hit the nail on the head right there. Not only do they get great benefits, and retirement. Most teachers have about 4 Months a year off. So they are often able to work in those 4 months in other jobs. People talk about their Salaries as if they are annual when in fact they are paid that amount for 2/3rds of a year.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> yes they are...and they are still the lowest paid professionals (requiring minimum of 5 years of college and certification) out there.
Click to expand...


You make this sound like news?

Who expected to be highly paid for a teaching certificate?

Sorry, but if teachers wanted higher pay, then THEY SHOULDn"T HAVE BEEN TEACHERS.


----------



## Samson

uscitizen said:


> I saw a guy on Fox today saying that unions are the reason our education system is where it is.
> That is just absurd.



Naw, teachers unions have been a HUGE help.....


----------



## N4mddissent

Wicked Jester said:


> N4mddissent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kudos to new Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker!
> 
> More brave Politicians need to start standing up to the corrupt Teacher Unions. The Teacher Unions have brought our Public School System to its knees. It has become all about them. It's all about getting that cash for them. They don't care about the kids anymore. They also only want to force their politics and social experimenting on the kids at this point. Their number one goal these last few decades has been to brainwash the children and create good little future adult Democrats. They stopped teaching the kids the basics of Education a long time ago.
> 
> Teacher Unions now only do far more harm than they do good. It's time for them to go away. The Public School System will be so much better off when they're gone. The Kids could actually start learning again. American kids continue to fall further & further behind other far less developed and less wealthy nations. I do blame the Teacher Unions for this. They have become too obsessed with the cash and creating good little future adult Democrats. They have lost their way. Get rid of the Teacher Unions and our Public School System might just be salvaged.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> States with weak teacher unions have even lower test scores than ones with stronger unions. In any case, unions are not the problem with our education system.  People looking everywhere other than shit parenting for someone to blame are the real problem.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And teachers (non union) in our kids private school, and other surrounding private schools in the area, have far higher test scores and graduation rates than the unionized teachers in surrounding public schools.
> 
> Ya' see, those teachers don't have a union to back them up if their competence is called into question. They have a higher standard to live up to. They fail, they are rightfully shit canned and sent packing. That's the way it should be.
Click to expand...


See Boudecea's post

Parents who send their kids to private school obviously have the RESOURCES and MOTIVATION to see that their kids succeed in school.  But in public school teachers have to deal with some kids with good supportive parents, but a lot of kids with shit parents who don't care along and instill those values (or lack thereof) in their children.  But people want to compare the two as if they draw on the same population.  It would be like you having to pick the first 10 random people you meet on the street and giving them a physical while I go grab 5 people working out at the local gym, and then I declare that obviously people in my town are more physically fit.

I have had dealings with a wide variety of public school systems.  I spent time in a public school in a very wealthy neighborhood (avg home value $500,000 -$1,000,000 in the area around the school). The parents were educated and wealthy.  The student's scores were off the chart.  They had a 98% graduation rate. 

I also spent time in a high poverty rural public school.  The test scores were terrible.  Large portions were not at grade level, and the drop-out rate was appalling. Discipline was a constant struggle.

They were in the same state, teaching the same standards, using the same techniques.  The only difference I could see was that the teachers in the poorer school actually worked harder and sacrificed more of their personal time because they were trying so hard to help these students improve.  The teachers at the richer school had a much easier time and were better paid.

Beginning teachers usually make about $20 per hour. Not exactly "get rich" money.  (And no, they do not get paid for any of their "vacation" whether it's spring break, winter break, or summer break.  Do the math...40 hrs per week times 38 weeks) They only get paid for the 190 days they work. Plus, they often work over 40 hours per week but since they are salaried employees, they usually don't get compensated for that.  I know one teacher who had a brother who worked as a custodian in a nuclear plant and her father was a mechanic at a paper mill. Both made far more than she did and neither had ever been to college.  

Almost every teacher I have ever met wants nothing more than the kids they teach to succeed.  If they complain, it is because they get tired of busting their asses to help students to succeed while some kids and parents won't lift a finger to help or take one iota of personal responsibility for their own or their child's education. Instead they want to blame the teachers.  Then they have to listen to lots of other people jump on the "blame the teacher" bandwagon just because it is more convenient to blame teachers or it fits better with their political ideology or just utter bombastic nonsense about issues of which they have no real knowledge.


----------



## Gem

As a public school teacher, I would be absolutely fine with doing away with the unions.  My question to those of you who support that, however, is:

What are you going to do when that doesn't miraculously "fix" this broken system and, in fact, spawns a whole new set of problems?

It seems like many here are hanging their hats on the "the evil teachers unions are the reason public education is failing in this country,"  and while I would have no problem with doing away with collective bargaining, etc. (in fact, I'm pretty sure I would benefit greatly from such a decision), I find it laughable that so many seem to think that this will solve the problem of why our schools are failing.


----------



## Samson

Gem said:


> As a public school teacher, I would be absolutely fine with doing away with the unions.  My question to those of you who support that, however, is:
> 
> What are you going to do when that doesn't miraculously "fix" this broken system and, in fact, spawns a whole new set of problems?
> 
> It seems like many here are hanging their hats on the "the evil teachers unions are the reason public education is failing in this country,"  and while I would have no problem with doing away with collective bargaining, etc. (in fact, I'm pretty sure I would benefit greatly from such a decision), I find it laughable that so many seem to think that this will solve the problem of why our schools are failing.





What "whole new set of problems" do you mean?

Like, what would be the top 3?


----------



## Annie

Samson said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Charles_Main said:
> 
> 
> 
> you hit the nail on the head right there. Not only do they get great benefits, and retirement. Most teachers have about 4 Months a year off. So they are often able to work in those 4 months in other jobs. People talk about their Salaries as if they are annual when in fact they are paid that amount for 2/3rds of a year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yes they are...and they are still the lowest paid professionals (requiring minimum of 5 years of college and certification) out there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You make this sound like news?
> 
> Who expected to be highly paid for a teaching certificate?
> 
> Sorry, but if teachers wanted higher pay, then THEY SHOULDn"T HAVE BEEN TEACHERS.
Click to expand...


Maybe it's me, but I find an average salary in the mid-high 40's pretty good. In more generous, populated states quite a bit higher. My local districts have an average in the high 50's for unit districts, secondary districts are in the mid-60's. Both of these are before extra curricular pay.


----------



## Samson

N4mddissent said:


> Then they have to listen to lots of other people jump on the "blame the teacher" bandwagon just because it is more convenient to blame teachers or it fits better with their political ideology or just utter bombastic nonsense about issues of which they have no real knowledge.



It is convenient to "blame the teachers."

However, every other "professional" is measured by their accomplishments...why should teachers be any different? They are, after all PUBLIC School teachers. They are supposed to teach the PUBLIC, not just kids that come from perfect households, and who have high values of self motivation.


----------



## Wicked Jester

Gem said:


> As a public school teacher, I would be absolutely fine with doing away with the unions.  My question to those of you who support that, however, is:
> 
> What are you going to do when that doesn't miraculously "fix" this broken system and, in fact, spawns a whole new set of problems?
> 
> It seems like many here are hanging their hats on the "the evil teachers unions are the reason public education is failing in this country,"  and while I would have no problem with doing away with collective bargaining, etc. (in fact, I'm pretty sure I would benefit greatly from such a decision), I find it laughable that so many seem to think that this will solve the problem of why our schools are failing.


Doing away with the unions will force teachers to hold themselves to a higher standard. They won't have the security blanket of a union fighting for them despite their abject incompetence.

Get the power out of the hands of the unions and put it fully in the hands of the school districts. If the school districts could have the power over their teachers and their competence without the inevitable threat of union intervention in personnel matters, things would no doubt change.

Basically, just cut out the middle man and get directly down to business. Enough is enough.


----------



## Twin Fist

unions suck, and protect perverts and molesters, and need to be outlawed

Keeping Bad Teachers in Front of Students | Teachers Union Facts

In ten years, only about 47 out of 100,000 teachers were actually terminated from New Jerseys schools.

NJ Teachers Union Exposed | Blogs For Victory

Teachers Union Exposed

auto unions are even worse


----------



## Samson

Annie said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> yes they are...and they are still the lowest paid professionals (requiring minimum of 5 years of college and certification) out there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You make this sound like news?
> 
> Who expected to be highly paid for a teaching certificate?
> 
> Sorry, but if teachers wanted higher pay, then THEY SHOULDn"T HAVE BEEN TEACHERS.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Maybe it's me, but I find an average salary in the mid-high 40's pretty good. In more generous, populated states quite a bit higher. My local districts have an average in the high 50's for unit districts, secondary districts are in the mid-60's. Both of these are before extra curricular pay.
Click to expand...


You are correct. Teachers, right out of school, are some of the highest paid Government Employees...

Anyone know what a 2nd Lt serving in A-stan is making?


----------



## Annie

Wicked Jester said:


> Gem said:
> 
> 
> 
> As a public school teacher, I would be absolutely fine with doing away with the unions.  My question to those of you who support that, however, is:
> 
> What are you going to do when that doesn't miraculously "fix" this broken system and, in fact, spawns a whole new set of problems?
> 
> It seems like many here are hanging their hats on the "the evil teachers unions are the reason public education is failing in this country,"  and while I would have no problem with doing away with collective bargaining, etc. (in fact, I'm pretty sure I would benefit greatly from such a decision), I find it laughable that so many seem to think that this will solve the problem of why our schools are failing.
> 
> 
> 
> Doing away with the unions will force teachers to hold themselves to a higher standard. They won't have the security blanket of a union fighting for them despite their abject incompetence.
> 
> Get the power out of the hands of the unions and put it fully in the hands of the school districts. If the school districts could have the power over their teachers and their competence without the inevitable threat of union intervention in personnel matters, things would no doubt change.
> 
> Basically, just cut out the middle man and get directly down to business. Enough is enough.
Click to expand...


To a degree I agree with Gem. Truth of the matter is that Unions have protected the worst of teachers, doing away with that is good. However, the real issue for failure doesn't lie with teachers, but with parenting and the expectations that somehow 'schools' or 'teachers' can fix what's broken.


----------



## Jroc

JamesInFlorida said:


> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers earn far less on average than non-teachers with the same level of education required for the job.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That may be true but they receive other great benefits no other occupations have. All Weekends off,several weeks of paid Holiday Time off,and entire Summers off? That seems pretty nice to most outside observers. Look around America and see how many other Americans enjoy those kinds of benefits. The Teacher Unions are only trouble at this point. They've outlived their usefulness. They only stand for greed and political activism at this point. It's time for them to get the boot once and for all. Our kids deserve better.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 1. Teachers work over the weekends sometimes. Maybe not at work-but they grade papers, make lesson plans, etc.
> 
> 2. Most teachers work during the summers-you didn't address this.
> 
> I think we need to pay teachers more. Because most people who're qualified more than current teachers don't want the job. Why not? Because the pay isn't there. Put the money into teacher salaries (not unions, not districts, not to build a new football field).
> 
> Any college graduate who makes less than $45K a year-is NOT in it for the money. Try again.
Click to expand...


Yeah.. how about the good teachers we pay more the not so good we pay less or get rid of them. It shouldn't be about how long you been in the stupid union


----------



## N4mddissent

Samson said:


> N4mddissent said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then they have to listen to lots of other people jump on the "blame the teacher" bandwagon just because it is more convenient to blame teachers or it fits better with their political ideology or just utter bombastic nonsense about issues of which they have no real knowledge.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is convenient to "blame the teachers."
> 
> However, every other "professional" is measured by their accomplishments...why should teachers be any different? They are, after all PUBLIC School teachers. They are supposed to teach the PUBLIC, not just kids that come from perfect households, and who have high values of self motivation.
Click to expand...


Because most other professions rely more upon the actions of the professional than upon the actions of others...especially minors to which you have limited access and control.  If doctors were not judged by how much they helped patients heal, but how healthy they were.  Imagine if we judged doctors as shit because too many of their patients are getting fat and it's making them sick. Or perhaps their patient is smoking and getting cancer.  That is what we're doing with teachers.  They can't control whether little johnny goes home and studies or whether he simply picks up his xbox and plays all night.  They can't control that little suzie is too busy texting her friends all night and her parents can't be bothered to attend a teacher conference.  But yet they are judged "poor teachers" when little johnny and suzy fail their tests.


----------



## Gem

Samson Wrote:


> What "whole new set of problems" do you mean?
> 
> Like, what would be the top 3?



Off the top of my head...

I worked for a district that worked closely with its union for several years on developing a merit based pay system that would reward "good" teachers and would encourage struggling teachers (or bad teachers) to improve or get out.  The union and the district worked hand in hand, in good faith...and after years of trying...they abandoned the idea...the reason?  The district discovered that it was highly likely that it would cost the district FAR FAR too much because so many of the teachers were highly educated, highly qualified, and working their assess off every day for their students.  

Yes...without unions it would be easier to get rid of "bad" teachers...that would be wonderful.  But are taxpayers REALLY willing to pay the good teachers what they are worth?  The district I worked for decided that answer was "no."

On the other side of that coin...you have the problem of districts that would simply say...Here's what we are paying (not much...cause afterall, you get summers "off")...oh, and healthcare costs have got to go up....and your pension is gone....you're going to have a lot of teachers who love teaching...but who still need to eat, save some money for the future...and keep their families healthy...who are going to go elsewhere.

Good, you say.  Good riddance to them!  We'll get the teachers who REALLY want to be there then.  I argue that no...you won't.  You'll get young, inexperienced teachers who will quickly learn that without any of the benefits...what they have chosen is a REALLY, FRIGGIN' HARD JOB that has very few perks....and they'll leave (in even higher numbers than they already do.)

And then we'll be left with even worse teachers than the ones you are so desperate to get rid of the unions so you can fire...

There's two potential problems...I can speak at length about the problems that getting rid of collective bargaining bring (even though I support it...its a nightmare in a public education system).  

Again...I'm not saying that getting rid of unions might not be a good step for public education.  I'm just laughing a bit (politely and respectfully) at people outside the world of public education who genuinely believe that it is going to solve the problems we are facing and not end up causing new ones.


----------



## Gem

> Yeah.. how about the good teachers we pay more the not so good we pay less or get rid of them. It shouldn't be about how long you been in the stupid union



I agree completely.

Are you as a taxpayer, willing to cough up A LOT more money when you discover that your district is made up of 95% good teachers and 5% mediocre ones?


----------



## Jroc

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuri7p_9pm4"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuri7p_9pm4[/ame]


----------



## bodecea

Annie said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> yes they are...and they are still the lowest paid professionals (requiring minimum of 5 years of college and certification) out there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You make this sound like news?
> 
> Who expected to be highly paid for a teaching certificate?
> 
> Sorry, but if teachers wanted higher pay, then THEY SHOULDn"T HAVE BEEN TEACHERS.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Maybe it's me, but I find an average salary in the mid-high 40's pretty good. In more generous, populated states quite a bit higher. My local districts have an average in the high 50's for unit districts, secondary districts are in the mid-60's. Both of these are before extra curricular pay.
Click to expand...


And you understand this pay is usually after over 10 years of service.


----------



## Wicked Jester

Annie said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gem said:
> 
> 
> 
> As a public school teacher, I would be absolutely fine with doing away with the unions.  My question to those of you who support that, however, is:
> 
> What are you going to do when that doesn't miraculously "fix" this broken system and, in fact, spawns a whole new set of problems?
> 
> It seems like many here are hanging their hats on the "the evil teachers unions are the reason public education is failing in this country,"  and while I would have no problem with doing away with collective bargaining, etc. (in fact, I'm pretty sure I would benefit greatly from such a decision), I find it laughable that so many seem to think that this will solve the problem of why our schools are failing.
> 
> 
> 
> Doing away with the unions will force teachers to hold themselves to a higher standard. They won't have the security blanket of a union fighting for them despite their abject incompetence.
> 
> Get the power out of the hands of the unions and put it fully in the hands of the school districts. If the school districts could have the power over their teachers and their competence without the inevitable threat of union intervention in personnel matters, things would no doubt change.
> 
> Basically, just cut out the middle man and get directly down to business. Enough is enough.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> To a degree I agree with Gem. Truth of the matter is that Unions have protected the worst of teachers, doing away with that is good. However, the real issue for failure doesn't lie with teachers, but with parenting and the expectations that somehow 'schools' or 'teachers' can fix what's broken.
Click to expand...

There's been bad parenting from day one. No doubt about it. It just seems that nowadays it's gotten worse. No doubt due to many factors, too include the nanny state culture that many kids are being raised under. Their parents make a living on welfare so, the kids say fuck it, why work hard in school when I can just milk it and get free shit later on in life, and supplement my tax payer given income by selling drugs or whatnot just like mommy and daddy do?

The teachers blame the parents, and vice versa. Fact is, they've both become a problem. Disban the unions who blatantly protect incompetence and start using  existing LAWS and create new LAWS to go after dysfunctional parents. Despite what the ACLU might whine about.


----------



## xotoxi

LibocalypseNow said:


> More brave Politicians need to start standing up to the corrupt Teacher Unions. The Teacher Unions have brought our Public School System to its knees. It has become all about them. It's all about getting that cash for them.



HERE HERE!!!  

Down with those money-grubbing teachers!!!  They make enough money!!!


----------



## bodecea

You know...I've always been a proponent of School Choice.   Public schools should be able to choose who they accept from their district and who they don't accept.


----------



## Jroc

Gem said:


> Yeah.. how about the good teachers we pay more the not so good we pay less or get rid of them. It shouldn't be about how long you been in the stupid union
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree completely.
> 
> Are you as a taxpayer, willing to cough up A LOT more money when you discover that your district is made up of 95% good teachers and 5% mediocre ones?
Click to expand...


Yeah.. if that were only the case I think you give some teachers too much credit what suburbs do you teach in? I went to Detroit public schools they now have a 300 million dollar budget defect...unrea!!l most of it is legacy cost from pensions


----------



## The T

The following would make one think by Liberal Statist Standards that we were watching a "Rightwing Tea Party Rally"...

Think again...Projection by the left and rears it's head...


----------



## Stephanie

The teachers have shut down the schools protesting this..

But I guess it's for the GOOD OF THE CHILLLLLLLLDREN.

I say Fire them all who are protesting. Plenty of others out of work willing to work.

I hope he sticks with it.

And get ready folks for more of this shit this summer. The Unions are seeing with Obama a free pass and they mean to take advantage of it.


----------



## The T

Stephanie said:


> The teachers have shut down the schools protesting this..
> 
> But I guess it's for the GOOD OF THE CHILLLLLLLLDREN.
> 
> I say Fire them all who are protesting. Plenty of others out of work willing to work.
> 
> I hope he sticks with it.
> 
> And get ready folks for more of this shit this summer. The Unions are seeing with Obama a free pass and they mean to take advantage of it.


----------



## Samson

Gem said:


> Samson Wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> What "whole new set of problems" do you mean?
> 
> Like, what would be the top 3?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Off the top of my head...
> 
> I worked for a district that worked closely with its union for several years on developing a merit based pay system that would reward "good" teachers and would encourage struggling teachers (or bad teachers) to improve or get out.  The union and the district worked hand in hand, in good faith...and after years of trying...they abandoned the idea...the reason?  The district discovered that it was highly likely that it would cost the district FAR FAR too much because so many of the teachers were highly educated, highly qualified, and working their assess off every day for their students.
> 
> Yes...without unions it would be easier to get rid of "bad" teachers...that would be wonderful.  But are taxpayers REALLY willing to pay the good teachers what they are worth?  The district I worked for decided that answer was "no."
> 
> On the other side of that coin...you have the problem of districts that would simply say...Here's what we are paying (not much...cause afterall, you get summers "off")...oh, and healthcare costs have got to go up....and your pension is gone....you're going to have a lot of teachers who love teaching...but who still need to eat, save some money for the future...and keep their families healthy...who are going to go elsewhere.
> 
> Good, you say.  Good riddance to them!  We'll get the teachers who REALLY want to be there then.  I argue that no...you won't.  You'll get young, inexperienced teachers who will quickly learn that without any of the benefits...what they have chosen is a REALLY, FRIGGIN' HARD JOB that has very few perks....and they'll leave (in even higher numbers than they already do.)
> 
> And then we'll be left with even worse teachers than the ones you are so desperate to get rid of the unions so you can fire...
> 
> There's two potential problems...I can speak at length about the problems that getting rid of collective bargaining bring (even though I support it...its a nightmare in a public education system).
> 
> Again...I'm not saying that getting rid of unions might not be a good step for public education.  I'm just laughing a bit (politely and respectfully) at people outside the world of public education who genuinely believe that it is going to solve the problems we are facing and not end up causing new ones.
Click to expand...


So, in your opinion, states without collective bargaining have bad teachers (all others having left teaching because the pay is low)

Which State is that?

Not all states allow teacher unions to collectively bargain: E.g. Texas

But Texas has some of the most highly rated (Newsweek's 100 BEST HIGH SCHOOL's in the USA) public schools?


----------



## Gem

> Yeah if that were only the case I think you give some teachers too much credit what suburbs do you teach in? I went to Detroit public schools they now have a 300 million dollar budget defect...unreal most are legacy cost from pensions



Nice try, but no dice.  I teach in an inner-city district.  High-poverty, majority minority.  I have had parent-teacher conferences with pimps and crack dealers.  I have students who keep deodorant, mouthwash, and wet-wipes in my bottom drawer because they have no heat or water at their house.  And the majority of teachers I work with have master's degrees, multiple areas of certification, and work on average from 7AM (or earlier) to 5PM (or later).  

Again, don't misunderstand - I have stated from the beginning that I think the unions are a problem for several reasons and I wouldn't cry to see them go.  The pension plans promised are unrealistic in our economy and are bankrupting our states.  Changes must be made.

What I AM saying, however...is that this notion that its the BAD teachers that are causing all the problems and that if we could just get rid of unions everything would be fine...is simply laughable.  Are their bad teachers?  Absolutely.  Do they cause problems?  Absolutely.  Should there be easier ways to fire them?  ABSO-FREAKIN-LUTELY!  But certainly not in the amount that some here seem to think...in fact, most teachers are highly educated, highly qualified, deeply involved and caring employees who - if taken out of a collective bargaining system, would be in a position to ask for (and be worth) a hell of a lot more than 40,000.  And I don't think all the people here who claim they want to pay good teachers what they are really worth would be singing the same tune when they saw what that bill looks like.


----------



## Samson

bodecea said:


> You know...I've always been a proponent of School Choice.   Public schools should be able to choose who they accept from their district and who they don't accept.






They wouldn't really be "Public" schools if they didn't serve the "Public."

We'd need to rename them: "Schools-For-Only-That-Portion-Of-The-Public-That-Bodecea-Approves."


----------



## shintao

Wicked Jester said:


> Annie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> Doing away with the unions will force teachers to hold themselves to a higher standard. They won't have the security blanket of a union fighting for them despite their abject incompetence.
> 
> Get the power out of the hands of the unions and put it fully in the hands of the school districts. If the school districts could have the power over their teachers and their competence without the inevitable threat of union intervention in personnel matters, things would no doubt change.
> 
> Basically, just cut out the middle man and get directly down to business. Enough is enough.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To a degree I agree with Gem. Truth of the matter is that Unions have protected the worst of teachers, doing away with that is good. However, the real issue for failure doesn't lie with teachers, but with parenting and the expectations that somehow 'schools' or 'teachers' can fix what's broken.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There's been bad parenting from day one. No doubt about it. It just seems that nowadays it's gotten worse. No doubt due to many factors, too include the nanny state culture that many kids are being raised under. Their parents make a living on welfare so, the kids say fuck it, why work hard in school when I can just milk it and get free shit later on in life, and supplement my tax payer given income by selling drugs or whatnot just like mommy and daddy do?
> 
> The teachers blame the parents, and vice versa. Fact is, they've both become a problem. Disban the unions who blatantly protect incompetence and start using  existing LAWS and create new LAWS to go after dysfunctional parents. Despite what the ACLU might whine about.
Click to expand...


What an incompetent teacher, and who is protecting one?? Sounds like a mythical paradigm your erecting down in the basement. I got to ask you. When you went to school did you have any incompetent teachers?

Further, attempting to disban Unions is UnAmerican and anticapitalist to the core. What do you do for a living? Maybe we should cut your wages or just throw your sorry ass out the door and let an illegal do what you do for a plate of beans a day.


----------



## Wicked Jester

Gem said:


> Yeah if that were only the case I think you give some teachers too much credit what suburbs do you teach in? I went to Detroit public schools they now have a 300 million dollar budget defect...unreal most are legacy cost from pensions
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nice try, but no dice.  I teach in an inner-city district.  High-poverty, majority minority.  I have had parent-teacher conferences with pimps and crack dealers.  I have students who keep deodorant, mouthwash, and wet-wipes in my bottom drawer because they have no heat or water at their house.  And the majority of teachers I work with have master's degrees, multiple areas of certification, and work on average from 7AM (or earlier) to 5PM (or later).
> 
> Again, don't misunderstand - I have stated from the beginning that I think the unions are a problem for several reasons and I wouldn't cry to see them go.  The pension plans promised are unrealistic in our economy and are bankrupting our states.  Changes must be made.
> 
> What I AM saying, however...is that this notion that its the BAD teachers that are causing all the problems and that if we could just get rid of unions everything would be fine...is simply laughable.  Are their bad teachers?  Absolutely.  Do they cause problems?  Absolutely.  Should there be easier ways to fire them?  ABSO-FREAKIN-LUTELY!  But certainly not in the amount that some here seem to think...in fact, most teachers are highly educated, highly qualified, deeply involved and caring employees who - if taken out of a collective bargaining system, would be in a position to ask for (and be worth) a hell of a lot more than 40,000.  And I don't think all the people here who claim they want to pay good teachers what they are really worth would be singing the same tune when they saw what that bill looks like.
Click to expand...

As opposed to the bill we are now paying for abjectly incompetent teachers who are being protected by abjectly corrupt unions?

I guarantee the bill will be much smaller in the end if this countries children are being educated instead of being warehoused for 6-7 hours a day.

I'll be glad to see my taxpaying dollars go to funding well paying  salary's for competent teachers who aren't working under the shield of union corruption.


----------



## Gem

Samson Wrote:


> So, in your opinion, states without collective bargaining have bad teachers (all others having left teaching because the pay is low)
> 
> Which State is that?
> 
> Not all states allow teacher unions to collectively bargain: E.g. Texas
> 
> But Texas has some of the most highly rated (Newsweek's 100 BEST HIGH SCHOOL's in the USA) public schools?



No, not saying that at all.  Remember, I support the idea of ending collective bargaining.  I'm simply stating that it brings with it its own unique concerns, difficulties, challenges and problems.  

I think that people are looking for a quick fix.  Do I think teachers unions hold some responsibility as to why public education is failing?  Sure.  Do I think they are the main problem as to why our kids are falling behind?  I don't know about that...but I DO think that they are much easier target politically than any of the other culprits.  And, to be frank...THATS what I think this is really about.  Scoring political points by pointing to the easiest boogeyman in the room and blaming it all on him rather than trying to take a look at what is REALLY wrong...and then setting about fixing it.


----------



## chanel

I have much to say on this subject. I am a public school teacher and I send my kids ro private school. Not unlike many teachers I work with. 

The faculty and curriculum are far superior in public school. The discipline and moral education is far superior in Catholic school. It's a personal choice as to what is best for your kid. Wouldn't it be wonderful to have both? But that is pie in the sky. Unions are not the problem.  It's the whole fucking system of "no child left behind" and "college for all". There is plenty of blame to go around when Johnny can't read. But if you think teachers should hold kids back until they do, speak up.  The teachers are sympatico - the bureaucrats and the parents? Not so much.

I have students who admit they have never done homework, and never studied for a tesr. Now theyv are in 12th grade. Who's fault is that?  Everyone's. The least being the kid who knows nothing else. We enable laziness. We reward bad behavior. And we celebrate mediocrity. Welcome to America. Schools are only a microcosm of our communities.


----------



## AmericanFirst

bodecea said:


> xsited1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kudos to new Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker!
> 
> More brave Politicians need to start standing up to the corrupt Teacher Unions. The Teacher Unions have brought our Public School System to its knees. It has become all about them. It's all about getting that cash for them. They don't care about the kids anymore. They also only want to force their politics and social experimenting on the kids at this point. Their number one goal these last few decades has been to brainwash the children and create good little future adult Democrats. They stopped teaching the kids the basics of Education a long time ago.
> 
> Teacher Unions now only do far more harm than they do good. It's time for them to go away. The Public School System will be so much better off when they're gone. The Kids could actually start learning again. American kids continue to fall further & further behind other far less developed and less wealthy nations. I do blame the Teacher Unions for this. They have become too obsessed with the cash and creating good little future adult Democrats. They have lost their way. Get rid of the Teacher Unions and our Public School System might just be able to be salvaged.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know dozens of private school teachers and none of them are in a union.  I wonder why they are necessary in public schools.  Anyone know?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Look to the average pay for private school teachers compared to public school teachers and their turnover rate.   Plus, let me point out that private schools get to pick and choose their clientele.   Public schools do not.   I have a close friend who has an ED student (emotionally disturbed) student in his class ever day...when he is not suspended for threatening other students, teachers, administrators.   He is horribly misplaced but the parents INSIST on him being in the "least restrictive environment".   So this student threatens others, makes noises in class and refuses to work.  And because this is a public school, the school, the administrators, the teachers have no choice.  Tell me a private school that would accept that.
Click to expand...

This is what happens when you play by the do good libs rules and spare the rod. The school needs to take care of the problem if the parents won't.


----------



## Wicked Jester

shintao said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Annie said:
> 
> 
> 
> To a degree I agree with Gem. Truth of the matter is that Unions have protected the worst of teachers, doing away with that is good. However, the real issue for failure doesn't lie with teachers, but with parenting and the expectations that somehow 'schools' or 'teachers' can fix what's broken.
> 
> 
> 
> There's been bad parenting from day one. No doubt about it. It just seems that nowadays it's gotten worse. No doubt due to many factors, too include the nanny state culture that many kids are being raised under. Their parents make a living on welfare so, the kids say fuck it, why work hard in school when I can just milk it and get free shit later on in life, and supplement my tax payer given income by selling drugs or whatnot just like mommy and daddy do?
> 
> The teachers blame the parents, and vice versa. Fact is, they've both become a problem. Disban the unions who blatantly protect incompetence and start using  existing LAWS and create new LAWS to go after dysfunctional parents. Despite what the ACLU might whine about.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What an incompetent teacher, and who is protecting one?? Sounds like a mythical paradigm your erecting down in the basement. I got to ask you. When you went to school did you have any incompetent teachers?
> 
> Further, attempting to disban Unions is UnAmerican and anticapitalist to the core. What do you do for a living? Maybe we should cut your wages or just throw your sorry ass out the door and let an illegal do what you do for a plate of beans a day.
Click to expand...

Actually, I had a couple of teachers that weren't that great......One was a drunk, who smelled like cheap scotch all the time. He was fired halfway through the school year. It's nice to know he's still alive and posting under the name of Shintao on this message board


----------



## Gem

Wicked Jester Wrote:


> As opposed to the bill we are now paying for abjectly incompetent teachers who are being protected by abjectly corrupt unions?
> 
> I guarantee the bill will be much smaller in the end if this countries children are being educated instead of being warehoused for 6-7 hours a day.
> 
> I'll be glad to see my taxpaying dollars go to funding well paying salary's for competent teachers who aren't working under the shield of union corruption.



So it sounds to me like we are in complete agreement - we both are fine with paying teachers what they are worth.  How nice to agree.


----------



## Avatar4321

13 pages on it and it's the kids getting screwed.


----------



## Samson

bodecea said:


> Annie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> You make this sound like news?
> 
> Who expected to be highly paid for a teaching certificate?
> 
> Sorry, but if teachers wanted higher pay, then THEY SHOULDn"T HAVE BEEN TEACHERS.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe it's me, but I find an average salary in the mid-high 40's pretty good. In more generous, populated states quite a bit higher. My local districts have an average in the high 50's for unit districts, secondary districts are in the mid-60's. Both of these are before extra curricular pay.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And you understand this pay is usually after over 10 years of service.
Click to expand...


So what?

Is there another job in Government Service that makes more for 200 days of attendance/yr and a Degree in Education?


----------



## Samson

chanel said:


> I have much to say on this subject. I am a public school teacher and I send my kids ro privatee school. Not unlike many teachers I work with.





You must make more $$ than me.


----------



## JohnnyApplesack

LibocalypseNow said:


> *Kudos to new Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker! *
> 
> .



*I'll second that!*






*Prairie Fire in Madison*​

From grudging complacency to thousands on the streets, Wisconsins protests are spreading like a prairie fire.  With notable work over the years done by small numbers of committed activists aside, widespread political activism has been dormant in Wisconsin. 

Wisconsin is the state where Fighting Bob La Follette led the progressive movement a century back and was the first state where public employees secured the right to collectively bargain in 1959. Wisconsites have enjoyed the equity of this past activism for decades, yet 30 years after Ronald Reagan launched his class war against workers, labor is finally taking a stand.

After a series of cascading factory closings, longer work weeks, shortened leisure, lowered expectations and heightened insecurity Wisconsin labor is saying enough.

*Enter Governor Scott Walker to drop a match to the parched prairie and start the flames of resistance. * 


Christopher Fons: Prairie Fire in Madison


----------



## AmericanFirst

NYcarbineer said:


> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kudos to new Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker!
> 
> More brave Politicians need to start standing up to the corrupt Teacher Unions. The Teacher Unions have brought our Public School System to its knees. It has become all about them. It's all about getting that cash for them. They don't care about the kids anymore. They also only want to force their politics and social experimenting on the kids at this point. Their number one goal these last few decades has been to brainwash the children and create good little future adult Democrats. They stopped teaching the kids the basics of Education a long time ago.
> 
> Teacher Unions now only do far more harm than they do good. It's time for them to go away. The Public School System will be so much better off when they're gone. The Kids could actually start learning again. American kids continue to fall further & further behind other far less developed and less wealthy nations. I do blame the Teacher Unions for this. They have become too obsessed with the cash and creating good little future adult Democrats. They have lost their way. Get rid of the Teacher Unions and our Public School System might just be able to be salvaged.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What educational system are you a product of, besides talk radio?
Click to expand...

The school of common sense, unlike the libs, they went to the school of socialist brainwashing.


----------



## Charles_Main

bodecea said:


> Charles_Main said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> That may be true but they receive other great benefits no other occupations have. All Weekends off,*several weeks of paid Holiday Time off,and entire Summers off? *That seems pretty nice to most outside observers. Look around America and see how many other Americans enjoy those kinds of benefits. The Teacher Unions are only trouble at this point. They've outlived their usefulness. They only stand for greed and political activism at this point. It's time for them to get the boot once and for all. Our kids deserve better.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you hit the nail on the head right there. Not only do they get great benefits, and retirement. Most teachers have about 4 Months a year off. So they are often able to work in those 4 months in other jobs. People talk about their Salaries as if they are annual when in fact they are paid that amount for 2/3rds of a year.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> yes they are...and they are still the lowest paid professionals (requiring minimum of 5 years of college and certification) out there.
Click to expand...


Actually if you take their Annual Salaries and divide them buy 8 (the number of months they usually have to work for it) you will see they make pretty good money. If they are able to work the 4 Months of Down time with work, they can make a relatively good salary.

The simple truth here people, is we have no money. Wisconsin has no Money. It is very easy to sit around saying we need to pay teachers more, it is much harder when confronted with the cold hard fiscal facts to actually justify doing it. 

Republicans have been pushing for more Vouchers to private schools for a long time. Private schools are usually profit driven and therefore actually care about the quality of Education they are giving, and the sustainability of the pay they are paying out. If they do not excel at teaching, people will not pay to send their kids to their schools.

Nobody is saying Public School Teachers do not care about the kids, what I am saying is their Union does not give a fuck about the kids, or whether or not the pay and Benefits they demand, can be sustained by the tax payers paying for them. Because of the power of the Unions, Schools systems can not even get rid of Bad teachers. They just move them around when they get complaints, because it is nearly impossible to fire one. 

Don't even get me started on Tenure. It would take 2 whole more threads for me to explain how much I think that practice needs to go.


----------



## Samson

Gem said:


> Samson Wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> So, in your opinion, states without collective bargaining have bad teachers (all others having left teaching because the pay is low)
> 
> Which State is that?
> 
> Not all states allow teacher unions to collectively bargain: E.g. Texas
> 
> But Texas has some of the most highly rated (Newsweek's 100 BEST HIGH SCHOOL's in the USA) public schools?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, not saying that at all.  Remember, I support the idea of ending collective bargaining.  I'm simply stating that it brings with it its own unique concerns, difficulties, challenges and problems.
> 
> I think that people are looking for a quick fix.  Do I think teachers unions hold some responsibility as to why public education is failing?  Sure.  Do I think they are the main problem as to why our kids are falling behind?  I don't know about that...but I DO think that they are much easier target politically than any of the other culprits.  And, to be frank...THATS what I think this is really about.  Scoring political points by pointing to the easiest boogeyman in the room and blaming it all on him rather than trying to take a look at what is REALLY wrong...and then setting about fixing it.
Click to expand...


I'm still waiting for you to produce any evidence that without collective bargaining, schools have unqualified teachers.

The fact is, that it makes no difference.


----------



## AmericanFirst

Nosmo King said:


> Ever notice how the Right Wing constantly wants to undermine working people?  Eliminate collective bargaining rights, lobby hard for a flat tax, work against workplace safety and environmental regulations.
> 
> Conservatives also want to erode other rights.  No same sex marriage.  No burning a flag in protest.  No real science taught, only dogmatic fables.
> 
> Every struggle for equality and freedom and civil rights happens with Conservatives in opposition.  Makes me wonder what would motivate someone to think Conservatism is actually something worthy of American ideals.


Not true, conservatives are more American than liberals. Why does the comminist party support the liberals? Because the liberals are for more gov't. control. Idiots.


----------



## JohnnyApplesack

Meanwhile, all the Limbaugh water carriers here are making $30K/yr tops, and would DIE for a union job.

Pure jealously.


----------



## Charles_Main

AmericanFirst said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kudos to new Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker!
> 
> More brave Politicians need to start standing up to the corrupt Teacher Unions. The Teacher Unions have brought our Public School System to its knees. It has become all about them. It's all about getting that cash for them. They don't care about the kids anymore. They also only want to force their politics and social experimenting on the kids at this point. Their number one goal these last few decades has been to brainwash the children and create good little future adult Democrats. They stopped teaching the kids the basics of Education a long time ago.
> 
> Teacher Unions now only do far more harm than they do good. It's time for them to go away. The Public School System will be so much better off when they're gone. The Kids could actually start learning again. American kids continue to fall further & further behind other far less developed and less wealthy nations. I do blame the Teacher Unions for this. They have become too obsessed with the cash and creating good little future adult Democrats. They have lost their way. Get rid of the Teacher Unions and our Public School System might just be able to be salvaged.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What educational system are you a product of, besides talk radio?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The school of common sense, unlike the libs, they went to the school of* socialist brainwashing*.
Click to expand...


More like the school of unattainable hopes and dreams. Most libs are well intentioned. They simply can not grasp the fact that their ideas are not realistic or Sustainable. 

It is a very easy thing to be a lib, and be all for giving everyone in need, what they need. It is much harder to live in reality and realize we can't.


----------



## Stephanie

bodecea said:


> Annie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> You make this sound like news?
> 
> Who expected to be highly paid for a teaching certificate?
> 
> Sorry, but if teachers wanted higher pay, then THEY SHOULDn"T HAVE BEEN TEACHERS.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe it's me, but I find an average salary in the mid-high 40's pretty good. In more generous, populated states quite a bit higher. My local districts have an average in the high 50's for unit districts, secondary districts are in the mid-60's. Both of these are before extra curricular pay.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And you understand this pay is usually after over 10 years of service.
Click to expand...


What the hell is this SERVICE crap. They are not in the military SERVING to protect our country..
If they don't like their pay, they can go do something else, like the MAJORITY of Americans would do.


----------



## AmericanFirst

JohnnyApplesack said:


> Meanwhile, all the Limbaugh water carriers here are making $30K/yr tops, and would DIE for a union job.
> 
> Pure jealously.


Would rather carry water to Mr. Limbaugh than wine to obamaturd any day.


----------



## Charles_Main

JohnnyApplesack said:


> Meanwhile, all the Limbaugh water carriers here are making $30K/yr tops, and would DIE for a union job.
> 
> *Pure jealously.*



Of course it is. Why should they not be. The democrats do everything they do to benefit Union workers, when Union Workers make up only 21% of US workers.

Classic case of a small group of people getting special treatment.


----------



## AmericanFirst

Charles_Main said:


> AmericanFirst said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> What educational system are you a product of, besides talk radio?
> 
> 
> 
> The school of common sense, unlike the libs, they went to the school of* socialist brainwashing*.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> More like the school of unattainable hopes and dreams. Most libs are well intentioned. They simply can not grasp the fact that their ideas are not realistic or Sustainable.
> 
> It is a very easy thing to be a lib, and be all for giving everyone in need, what they need. It is much harder to live in reality and realize we can't.
Click to expand...

Well said.


----------



## JohnnyApplesack

Charles_Main said:


> *Classic case of a small group of people getting special treatment.*



Special treatment?  When did being middle class become 'special treatment'?

WTF?


----------



## Wicked Jester

Gem said:


> Wicked Jester Wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> As opposed to the bill we are now paying for abjectly incompetent teachers who are being protected by abjectly corrupt unions?
> 
> I guarantee the bill will be much smaller in the end if this countries children are being educated instead of being warehoused for 6-7 hours a day.
> 
> I'll be glad to see my taxpaying dollars go to funding well paying salary's for competent teachers who aren't working under the shield of union corruption.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So it sounds to me like we are in complete agreement - we both are fine with paying teachers what they are worth.  How nice to agree.
Click to expand...

I have no problem with paying teachers what they are worth. As long as it's competent teachers. Pay 'em by the hour. Turn all public schools into year round schools. Lighten the class sizes by doing so. I don't agree however with paying teachers a set salary when they get so much time off during the year. If they work year round, then a set salary is warranted. If they don't, pay 'em by the hours worked. Let the districts decide on benefits offered, as opposed to being forced by a corrupt union.


----------



## JohnnyApplesack

AmericanFirst said:


> *Would rather carry water to Mr. Limbaugh than wine to obamaturd any day.*



No kidding.


----------



## Annie

bodecea said:


> Annie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> You make this sound like news?
> 
> Who expected to be highly paid for a teaching certificate?
> 
> Sorry, but if teachers wanted higher pay, then THEY SHOULDn"T HAVE BEEN TEACHERS.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe it's me, but I find an average salary in the mid-high 40's pretty good. In more generous, populated states quite a bit higher. My local districts have an average in the high 50's for unit districts, secondary districts are in the mid-60's. Both of these are before extra curricular pay.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And you understand this pay is usually after over 10 years of service.
Click to expand...


No it's not. Check out the links posted earlier.


----------



## Charles_Main

JohnnyApplesack said:


> Charles_Main said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Classic case of a small group of people getting special treatment.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Special treatment?  When did being middle class become 'special treatment'?
> 
> WTF?
Click to expand...


Who said anything about them Being Middle class or not. I am talking about the constant special treatment they get by their Democrat friends in the Government. You buffoon. Or do you only get upset when cooperation's get special treatment from the GOP? lol


----------



## JohnnyApplesack

Stephanie said:


> What the hell is this SERVICE crap. They are not in the military SERVING to protect our country..
> If they don't like their pay, they can go do something else, like the MAJORITY of Americans would do.



Looks like someone got tossed from high school.

Teachers are VASTLY underpaid for their level of education and amount of work done.  I out earned all those folks by the time I was around 35, working not nearly as hard.

Youse droolers wouldn't really know how hard teachers work for their pathetic pay, now would ya?


----------



## The T

Wicked Jester said:


> Gem said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wicked Jester Wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> As opposed to the bill we are now paying for abjectly incompetent teachers who are being protected by abjectly corrupt unions?
> 
> I guarantee the bill will be much smaller in the end if this countries children are being educated instead of being warehoused for 6-7 hours a day.
> 
> I'll be glad to see my taxpaying dollars go to funding well paying salary's for competent teachers who aren't working under the shield of union corruption.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So it sounds to me like we are in complete agreement - we both are fine with paying teachers what they are worth. How nice to agree.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have no problem with paying teachers what they are worth. As long as it's competent teachers. Pay 'em by the hour. Turn all public schools into year round schools. Lighten the class sizes by doing so. I don't agree however with paying teachers a set salary when they get so much time off during the year. If they work year round, then a set salary is warranted. If they don't, pay 'em by the hours worked. Let the districts decide on benefits offered, as opposed to being forced by a corrupt union.
Click to expand...

 
Yep. Present system is unsustainable. 

Obama sides with his pals today..."
Obama: _Some of what Ive heard coming out of Wisconsin, where youre just making it harder for public employees to collectively bargain generally, seems like more of an assault on unions_

Of course there is an assault. The Demands of the Unions cannot be met.


----------



## Charles_Main

Wicked Jester said:


> Gem said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wicked Jester Wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> As opposed to the bill we are now paying for abjectly incompetent teachers who are being protected by abjectly corrupt unions?
> 
> I guarantee the bill will be much smaller in the end if this countries children are being educated instead of being warehoused for 6-7 hours a day.
> 
> I'll be glad to see my taxpaying dollars go to funding well paying salary's for competent teachers who aren't working under the shield of union corruption.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So it sounds to me like we are in complete agreement - we both are fine with paying teachers what they are worth.  How nice to agree.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have no problem with paying teachers what they are worth. As long as it's competent teachers. Pay 'em by the hour. Turn all public schools into year round schools. Lighten the class sizes by doing so. I don't agree however with paying teachers a set salary when they get so much time off during the year. If they work year round, then a set salary is warranted. If they don't, pay 'em by the hours worked. Let the districts decide on benefits offered, as opposed to being forced by a corrupt union.
Click to expand...


There in lies the problem. The Public Sector Unions have through things like Tenure gotten it to the point that it does not matter how good or bad a teacher is. They will still be teaching. There is almost no accountability, and when ever someone talks about making some, these libs come out of the wood work to claim were attacking the working man.

Teachers are Blue Collar workers, when I think of the working man I think of Construction laborers, and factory workers, things like that. That's the Working man!


----------



## JohnnyApplesack

Charles_Main said:


> Who said anything about them Being Middle class or not.



I'm saying it now.  Without unions the middle class wouldn't even exist, stupid.  Go suck some CEO dick and get it over with.

[_The wingers on this board are truly ignorant.  Unreal_]


----------



## Gem

> I'm still waiting for you to produce any evidence that without collective bargaining, schools have unqualified teachers.
> 
> The fact is, that it makes no difference.



I thought I was pretty clear about the fact that I was discussing potential outcomes of ending collective bargaining...rather than providing evidence of locations where such a thing had already happened.  But, for the sake of furthering the conversation...I believe there are several studies that indicate that union teachers receive more prep time, teach smaller classes and receive a higher salary than nonunion workers.  (Sorry I don't have links, we just conversing so I didn't come prepared with data...I'll start looking for them if you don't have time to look yourself).  This would seem to indicate to me that NON-UNION teachers are likely to make less money, teach more kids, and have less time to prepare their lessons during their work day.  Now...is it possible that this will have no effect on the quality of professional who is drawn to the field of public education?  Sure...its possible.


----------



## Charles_Main

The T said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gem said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wicked Jester Wrote:
> 
> 
> So it sounds to me like we are in complete agreement - we both are fine with paying teachers what they are worth. How nice to agree.
> 
> 
> 
> I have no problem with paying teachers what they are worth. As long as it's competent teachers. Pay 'em by the hour. Turn all public schools into year round schools. Lighten the class sizes by doing so. I don't agree however with paying teachers a set salary when they get so much time off during the year. If they work year round, then a set salary is warranted. If they don't, pay 'em by the hours worked. Let the districts decide on benefits offered, as opposed to being forced by a corrupt union.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yep. Present system is unsustainable.
> 
> Obama sides with his pals today..."
> Obama: _Some of what Ive heard coming out of Wisconsin, where youre just making it harder for public employees to collectively bargain generally, seems like more of an assault on unions_
> 
> Of course there is an assault.* The Demands of the Unions cannot be met.*
Click to expand...


And the problems with that are much worse when it comes to the Public Sector. Because the People Negotiating with the Unions, are not profit driven Companies, they are pencil Pushing Government Bureaucrats Spending other peoples money, and looking to reward constituents.


----------



## Charles_Main

JohnnyApplesack said:


> Charles_Main said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who said anything about them Being Middle class or not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm saying it now.  Without unions the middle class wouldn't even exist, stupid.  Go suck some CEO dick and get it over with.
> 
> [_The wingers on this board are truly ignorant.  Unreal_]
Click to expand...


You are a delusional Idiot my Friend. At their Highest point in the 40's Unions still only accounted for 35% of Workers. Today it is only 20%. Union employees are not all or even most of the middle class.

You fail.


----------



## Stephanie

JohnnyApplesack said:


> Stephanie said:
> 
> 
> 
> What the hell is this SERVICE crap. They are not in the military SERVING to protect our country..
> If they don't like their pay, they can go do something else, like the MAJORITY of Americans would do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like someone got tossed from high school.
> 
> Teachers are VASTLY underpaid for their level of education and amount of work done.  I out earned all those folks by the time I was around 35, working not nearly as hard.
> 
> Youse droolers wouldn't really know how hard teachers work for their pathetic pay, now would ya?
Click to expand...


Listen you slobbering idiot, I work in a school. The teachers here make a dame good living for only having to work 9months out the year. So ya, some of us DO KNOW how much teachers work and what they get paid. Now go sit in the corner and no video games for you tonight.


----------



## Samson

Gem said:


> I'm still waiting for you to produce any evidence that without collective bargaining, schools have unqualified teachers.
> 
> The fact is, that it makes no difference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I thought I was pretty clear about the fact that I was discussing potential outcomes of ending collective bargaining...rather than providing evidence of locations where such a thing had already happened.  But, for the sake of furthering the conversation...I believe there are several studies that indicate that union teachers receive more prep time, teach smaller classes and receive a higher salary than nonunion workers.  (Sorry I don't have links, we just conversing so I didn't come prepared with data...I'll start looking for them if you don't have time to look yourself).  _This would seem to indicate to me that NON-UNION teachers are likely to make less money, teach more kids, and have less time to prepare their lessons during their work day. _ Now...is it possible that this will have no effect on the quality of professional who is drawn to the field of public education?  Sure...its possible.
Click to expand...


My point is that is is not just possible, but it is the FACT: states that outlaw collective bargaining have MANY of the best schools in the nation.

Therefore your offer of one of the negative outcomes of ending collective bargaining (that then schools would only be filled with unqualified teachers) simply doesn't happen.

Ergo: There are not any negative outcomes of ending collective bargaining for teachers.


----------



## shintao

Wicked Jester said:


> shintao said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> There's been bad parenting from day one. No doubt about it. It just seems that nowadays it's gotten worse. No doubt due to many factors, too include the nanny state culture that many kids are being raised under. Their parents make a living on welfare so, the kids say fuck it, why work hard in school when I can just milk it and get free shit later on in life, and supplement my tax payer given income by selling drugs or whatnot just like mommy and daddy do?
> 
> The teachers blame the parents, and vice versa. Fact is, they've both become a problem. Disban the unions who blatantly protect incompetence and start using  existing LAWS and create new LAWS to go after dysfunctional parents. Despite what the ACLU might whine about.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What an incompetent teacher, and who is protecting one?? Sounds like a mythical paradigm your erecting down in the basement. I got to ask you. When you went to school did you have any incompetent teachers?
> 
> Further, attempting to disban Unions is UnAmerican and anticapitalist to the core. What do you do for a living? Maybe we should cut your wages or just throw your sorry ass out the door and let an illegal do what you do for a plate of beans a day.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Actually, I had a couple of teachers that weren't that great......One was a drunk, who smelled like cheap scotch all the time. He was fired halfway through the school year. It's nice to know he's still alive and posting under the name of Shintao on this message board
Click to expand...


As I suspected, you had no incompentent teachers.


----------



## Samson

JohnnyApplesack said:


> Stephanie said:
> 
> 
> 
> What the hell is this SERVICE crap. They are not in the military SERVING to protect our country..
> If they don't like their pay, they can go do something else, like the MAJORITY of Americans would do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like someone got tossed from high school.
> 
> Teachers are VASTLY underpaid for their level of education and amount of work done.  I out earned all those folks by the time I was around 35, working not nearly as hard.
> 
> Youse droolers wouldn't really know how hard teachers work for their pathetic pay, now would ya?
Click to expand...



This moron deserves to be on my ignore list unless he can show which other Government employee fresh out of college with a BA in Education makes more


----------



## Wicked Jester

shintao said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> shintao said:
> 
> 
> 
> What an incompetent teacher, and who is protecting one?? Sounds like a mythical paradigm your erecting down in the basement. I got to ask you. When you went to school did you have any incompetent teachers?
> 
> Further, attempting to disban Unions is UnAmerican and anticapitalist to the core. What do you do for a living? Maybe we should cut your wages or just throw your sorry ass out the door and let an illegal do what you do for a plate of beans a day.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, I had a couple of teachers that weren't that great......One was a drunk, who smelled like cheap scotch all the time. He was fired halfway through the school year. It's nice to know he's still alive and posting under the name of Shintao on this message board
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As I suspected, you had no incompentent teachers.
Click to expand...

As I suspected, you still fail to add anything intelligent to ANY conversation.

As I suspected, you obviously had MANY incompetent teachers. The proof is provided in EVERY one of your posts.

Thanks for being the poster child for serious education reform. It's much appreciated.....Always helps for us to see firsthand just what effect a lousy education can have on our great countries citizens.

Now, go back to trying to nail that JELLO to the wall...If you had been given a proper education, you just might have been able to figure out that it doesn't work too well.


----------



## xotoxi

Jroc said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuri7p_9pm4



I guess I never realized exactly _how_ curvacious Governor Christie really was.


----------



## shintao

Samson said:


> Gem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm still waiting for you to produce any evidence that without collective bargaining, schools have unqualified teachers.
> 
> The fact is, that it makes no difference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I thought I was pretty clear about the fact that I was discussing potential outcomes of ending collective bargaining...rather than providing evidence of locations where such a thing had already happened.  But, for the sake of furthering the conversation...I believe there are several studies that indicate that union teachers receive more prep time, teach smaller classes and receive a higher salary than nonunion workers.  (Sorry I don't have links, we just conversing so I didn't come prepared with data...I'll start looking for them if you don't have time to look yourself).  _This would seem to indicate to me that NON-UNION teachers are likely to make less money, teach more kids, and have less time to prepare their lessons during their work day. _ Now...is it possible that this will have no effect on the quality of professional who is drawn to the field of public education?  Sure...its possible.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My point is that is is not just possible, but it is the FACT: states that outlaw collective bargaining have MANY of the best schools in the nation.
> 
> Therefore your offer of one of the negative outcomes of ending collective bargaining (that then schools would only be filled with unqualified teachers) simply doesn't happen.
> 
> *Ergo: There are not any negative outcomes of ending collective bargaining for teachers.*
Click to expand...


Of course not! Because there is no change made between Union and nonUnion teachers. They just call themselves nonUnion & carry on with Union activities all the way to lobbyist in DC.  Instead of paying dues, they pay for Umbrella Insurance like a doctor does.

Legal Protection

Included in the $2,000,000 individual liability insurance policy purchased for each professional member, AAE *Legal Protection benefits ensure that members have access to legal counsel at the onset of workplace issues and Defense costs related to liability insurance claims *are paid in addition to the $2,000,000 limit. Legal coverage applies to any legal action arising out of duties as an employee of an education entity, including:

civil rights cases 
lawsuits against the insured by parents or other teachers 
lawsuits against the insured for injunctive relief, declaratory relief, or other non-monetary relief 
*sexual misconduct *(if found not guilty or charges are dropped) 
corporal punishment (if found not guilty or charges are dropped) 



Employment Rights Coverage

Included in the $2,000,000 individual liability insurance policy purchased for each professional member, *AAE Employment Rights Coverage ensures that members have access to legal counsel at the onset of workplace employment issues. Members are able to immediately consult with an attorney if they are threatened with termination, suspension, reassignment, or demotion.* AAE Employment Rights Coverage provides or reimburses for an attorney to be involved with consultation and hearings (up to specified limits).

Member Benefits


----------



## Twin Fist

Charles_Main said:


> Most libs are well intentioned. They simply can not grasp the fact that their ideas are not realistic or Sustainable.
> 
> It is a very easy thing to be a lib, and be all for giving everyone in need, what they need. It is much harder to live in reality and realize we can't.



well said


----------



## shintao

Wicked Jester said:


> shintao said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, I had a couple of teachers that weren't that great......One was a drunk, who smelled like cheap scotch all the time. He was fired halfway through the school year. It's nice to know he's still alive and posting under the name of Shintao on this message board
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As I suspected, you had no incompentent teachers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> As I suspected, you still fail to add anything intelligent to ANY conversation.
> 
> As I suspected, you obviously had MANY incompetent teachers. The proof is provided in EVERY one of your posts.
> 
> Thanks for being the poster child for serious education reform. It's much appreciated.....Always helps for us to see firsthand just what effect a lousy education can have on our great countries citizens.
> 
> Now, go back to trying to nail that JELLO to the wall...If you had been given a proper education, you just might have been able to figure out that it doesn't work too well.
Click to expand...


Geeze, you don't have to get your panties in a wad. I could have just said you are a liar, but I was gracious about it. Apparently the only thing you learned in school besides cheating and unethical immoral behavior, is how to do it better than anyone else. I am surprised you didn't steal this thread while you were frothing at the mouth.


----------



## NYcarbineer

LibocalypseNow said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers have it pretty good compared to many other occupations. Yet Teachers seem to do the most whining & complaining. They get all weekends off,several weeks of paid Holiday time off,and they get their Summers off. That just doesn't seem so horrible. Of all professions,Teachers by far do the most whining & complaining. Look around America and see how many Americans enjoy all weekends off,several weeks of paid Holiday time off,and entire Summers off. So Teachers do have it pretty good. They need to slow down on their whiny greed. It does come down to the Teacher Unions in the end. They force their members to whine & complain so much. Give em the boot and our Schools might just recover.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers earn far less on average than non-teachers with the same level of education required for the job.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That may be true but they receive other great benefits no other occupations have. All Weekends off,several weeks of paid Holiday Time off,and entire Summers off? That seems pretty nice to most outside observers. Look around America and see how many other Americans enjoy those kinds of benefits. The Teacher Unions are only trouble at this point. They've outlived their usefulness. They only stand for greed and political activism at this point. It's time for them to get the boot once and for all. Our kids deserve better.
Click to expand...


You're fucking retarded.

How many people with bachelor's or master degrees, qualified in a particular profession via those degrees, working in those professions...

...do NOT make as much or more than teachers?  Do NOT have jobs with weekends off, and paid holidays?

As to summers off?  You want summers off from your job?  WITHOUT PAY?  eh?


----------



## bodecea

Stephanie said:


> JohnnyApplesack said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stephanie said:
> 
> 
> 
> What the hell is this SERVICE crap. They are not in the military SERVING to protect our country..
> If they don't like their pay, they can go do something else, like the MAJORITY of Americans would do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like someone got tossed from high school.
> 
> Teachers are VASTLY underpaid for their level of education and amount of work done.  I out earned all those folks by the time I was around 35, working not nearly as hard.
> 
> Youse droolers wouldn't really know how hard teachers work for their pathetic pay, now would ya?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Listen you slobbering idiot, I work in a school. The teachers here make a dame good living for only having to work 9months out the year. So ya, some of us DO KNOW how much teachers work and what they get paid. Now go sit in the corner and no video games for you tonight.
Click to expand...


What's your school's turnover rate?


----------



## bodecea

shintao said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> shintao said:
> 
> 
> 
> As I suspected, you had no incompentent teachers.
> 
> 
> 
> As I suspected, you still fail to add anything intelligent to ANY conversation.
> 
> As I suspected, you obviously had MANY incompetent teachers. The proof is provided in EVERY one of your posts.
> 
> Thanks for being the poster child for serious education reform. It's much appreciated.....Always helps for us to see firsthand just what effect a lousy education can have on our great countries citizens.
> 
> Now, go back to trying to nail that JELLO to the wall...If you had been given a proper education, you just might have been able to figure out that it doesn't work too well.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Geeze, you don't have to get your panties in a wad. I could have just said you are a liar, but I was gracious about it. Apparently the only thing you learned in school besides cheating and unethical immoral behavior, is how to do it better than anyone else. I am surprised you didn't steal this thread while you were frothing at the mouth.
Click to expand...


Wicked is most likely that student that teachers had to spend their time trying to stop disrupting the class so they could teach...a student that stole the right to a good education from his classmates.


----------



## NYcarbineer

LibocalypseNow said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers have it pretty good compared to many other occupations. Yet Teachers seem to do the most whining & complaining. They get all weekends off,several weeks of paid Holiday time off,and they get their Summers off. That just doesn't seem so horrible. Of all professions,Teachers by far do the most whining & complaining. Look around America and see how many Americans enjoy all weekends off,several weeks of paid Holiday time off,and entire Summers off. So Teachers do have it pretty good. They need to slow down on their whiny greed. It does come down to the Teacher Unions in the end. They force their members to whine & complain so much. Give em the boot and our Schools might just recover.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where did you hear that teachers get paid vacations?   It is 180 days plus usually another 5 for prep.   Period.
> 
> So...tell us, how much have you been in the classroom experiencing what teachers do and how they work, Libo?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Most American Workers do not get to enjoy all Weekends off,several weeks of Holiday Time off,and entire Summers off. Get out into the real world and see for yourself. Teachers just whine & complain too much. They have it pretty good. Just look around and see for yourself how most American Workers live. Most of these whiny teachers need a reality-check. How bout less Whining and more Teaching? A novel concept huh?
Click to expand...


Are teachers overpaid?


----------



## NYcarbineer

Skull Pilot said:


> Yeah who needs democracy we just won't show up.
> 
> The vote should be held no matter who shows up.



Gee, I thought the majority ramming something down the people's throats was a bad thing to you people...


----------



## Wicked Jester

bodecea said:


> shintao said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> As I suspected, you still fail to add anything intelligent to ANY conversation.
> 
> As I suspected, you obviously had MANY incompetent teachers. The proof is provided in EVERY one of your posts.
> 
> Thanks for being the poster child for serious education reform. It's much appreciated.....Always helps for us to see firsthand just what effect a lousy education can have on our great countries citizens.
> 
> Now, go back to trying to nail that JELLO to the wall...If you had been given a proper education, you just might have been able to figure out that it doesn't work too well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Geeze, you don't have to get your panties in a wad. I could have just said you are a liar, but I was gracious about it. Apparently the only thing you learned in school besides cheating and unethical immoral behavior, is how to do it better than anyone else. I am surprised you didn't steal this thread while you were frothing at the mouth.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wicked is most likely that student that teachers had to spend their time trying to stop disrupting the class so they could teach...a student that stole the right to a good education from his classmates.
Click to expand...

Wrong on every count there, Butch.

But I have no doubt that you were the girl in the class who had the teachers constantly tell you to quit trying to shove your hands in the panties of all the other girls in the class, eh perve?

And i'm also quite sure that the teachers are still telling you to quit trying to shove your hands in the panties of all the LIL' girls attending your schools open house, eh perve?


----------



## Samson

shintao said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gem said:
> 
> 
> 
> I thought I was pretty clear about the fact that I was discussing potential outcomes of ending collective bargaining...rather than providing evidence of locations where such a thing had already happened.  But, for the sake of furthering the conversation...I believe there are several studies that indicate that union teachers receive more prep time, teach smaller classes and receive a higher salary than nonunion workers.  (Sorry I don't have links, we just conversing so I didn't come prepared with data...I'll start looking for them if you don't have time to look yourself).  _This would seem to indicate to me that NON-UNION teachers are likely to make less money, teach more kids, and have less time to prepare their lessons during their work day. _ Now...is it possible that this will have no effect on the quality of professional who is drawn to the field of public education?  Sure...its possible.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My point is that is is not just possible, but it is the FACT: states that outlaw collective bargaining have MANY of the best schools in the nation.
> 
> Therefore your offer of one of the negative outcomes of ending collective bargaining (that then schools would only be filled with unqualified teachers) simply doesn't happen.
> 
> *Ergo: There are not any negative outcomes of ending collective bargaining for teachers.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Of course not! Because there is no change made between Union and nonUnion teachers. They just call themselves nonUnion & carry on with Union activities all the way to lobbyist in DC.  Instead of paying dues, they pay for Umbrella Insurance like a doctor does.
> 
> Legal Protection
> 
> Included in the $2,000,000 individual liability insurance policy purchased for each professional member, AAE *Legal Protection benefits ensure that members have access to legal counsel at the onset of workplace issues and Defense costs related to liability insurance claims *are paid in addition to the $2,000,000 limit. Legal coverage applies to any legal action arising out of duties as an employee of an education entity, including:
> 
> civil rights cases
> lawsuits against the insured by parents or other teachers
> lawsuits against the insured for injunctive relief, declaratory relief, or other non-monetary relief
> *sexual misconduct *(if found not guilty or charges are dropped)
> corporal punishment (if found not guilty or charges are dropped)
> 
> 
> 
> Employment Rights Coverage
> 
> Included in the $2,000,000 individual liability insurance policy purchased for each professional member, *AAE Employment Rights Coverage ensures that members have access to legal counsel at the onset of workplace employment issues. Members are able to immediately consult with an attorney if they are threatened with termination, suspension, reassignment, or demotion.* AAE Employment Rights Coverage provides or reimburses for an attorney to be involved with consultation and hearings (up to specified limits).
> 
> Member Benefits
Click to expand...


Not sure if we're on the same page:

A group that collectively bargains with an insurance company =/= a group that collectively bargains with their employer


----------



## bodecea

Wicked Jester said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> shintao said:
> 
> 
> 
> Geeze, you don't have to get your panties in a wad. I could have just said you are a liar, but I was gracious about it. Apparently the only thing you learned in school besides cheating and unethical immoral behavior, is how to do it better than anyone else. I am surprised you didn't steal this thread while you were frothing at the mouth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wicked is most likely that student that teachers had to spend their time trying to stop disrupting the class so they could teach...a student that stole the right to a good education from his classmates.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wrong on every count there, Butch.
> 
> But I have no doubt that you were the girl in the class who had the teachers constantly tell you to quit trying to shove your hands in the panties of all the other girls in the class, eh perve?
> 
> And i'm also quite sure that the teachers are still telling you to quit trying to shove your hands in the panties of all the LIL' girls attending your schools open house, eh perve?
Click to expand...


I think your post stands alone as to showing what lack of education you got and how you did not play well with others.   Thank you for proving my point so easily.  Rarely do I get such cooperation in making my point.


----------



## Wicked Jester

bodecea said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wicked is most likely that student that teachers had to spend their time trying to stop disrupting the class so they could teach...a student that stole the right to a good education from his classmates.
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong on every count there, Butch.
> 
> But I have no doubt that you were the girl in the class who had the teachers constantly tell you to quit trying to shove your hands in the panties of all the other girls in the class, eh perve?
> 
> And i'm also quite sure that the teachers are still telling you to quit trying to shove your hands in the panties of all the LIL' girls attending your schools open house, eh perve?
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think your post stands alone as to showing what lack of education you got and how you did not play well with others.   Thank you for proving my point so easily.  Rarely do I get such cooperation in making my point.
Click to expand...

The only point you've ever made up here is the fact that you're an abject LIAR.......Oh, yeah, and an immoral perve!

Heard them boo's yet?

Attended flight school yet?

Yeah, that's what I thought.


----------



## mdn2000

Public education just sucks period, if it does not make everyone happy, its failed, its that simple. I hated school, to me it was the most boring part of my life, wasted years, I learned to read, I spell like shit, my math skills never reached anything better than a D. When I was finished, I had to go out and get a real education. 

Its the 21st century and our entire government is broken, they have failed us, the only thing left is to starve us and leave us homeless. The educational system is just a symptom of what was wrong in the past is wrong today. 

Eight hours a day at school for thirteen years and people need another four years of education. That is a life dedicated to what and how the government teaches. It sucked.

Kids should be done with High school at around 16, less if they go to college. It should also take half as many hours a day, which saves us half the money. A kid that has no desire for an education beyond picking fruit, working at McDonalds, or working in a steel mill should have that option. 

Oops, our broken government lost all the jobs to China, Europe, all of Asia, even Canada.

Some people only wish to be simple people, they need simple jobs, its that simple industry, like steel, chemicals, energy, that we lost that the simple people need. 

Schools have failed but at the same time they need to be modernized, it shoud take a few years less with technology to teach a kid the basics, ten years of school is plenty. 

Of course we should of allowed the banks and wall street to fail, we should of allowed people to lose their homes, we are just delaying the collapse of our system by addressing the symptoms and not the problem. We need to take the power away from the government. If we allowed the banks and homes to fail, prices would be dirt cheap, a guy only interested in flipping hamburgers should not have to work thirty years to pay for a home, he should be able to do it in five years.

The price of everything is so ridiculous, the simple jobs for the simple people are just about gone. 

We have 9% unemployment, on average, that includes government workers, funny, I bet you that government workers are suffering about a 1% unemployment rate, meaning the people that do the hard work in the private sector are actually closer to 18%, maybe less, I do not know, I went to public schools.


----------



## bodecea

Wicked Jester said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong on every count there, Butch.
> 
> But I have no doubt that you were the girl in the class who had the teachers constantly tell you to quit trying to shove your hands in the panties of all the other girls in the class, eh perve?
> 
> And i'm also quite sure that the teachers are still telling you to quit trying to shove your hands in the panties of all the LIL' girls attending your schools open house, eh perve?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think your post stands alone as to showing what lack of education you got and how you did not play well with others.   Thank you for proving my point so easily.  Rarely do I get such cooperation in making my point.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The only point you've ever made up here is the fact that you're an abject LIAR.......Oh, yeah, and an immoral perve!
> 
> Heard them boo's yet?
> 
> Attended flight school yet?
> 
> Yeah, that's what I thought.
Click to expand...


Thank you again for proving my point...Rarely do we see such quick response.  Now everyone has a pretty good picture of your level of....ahem...maturity and willingness (or lack thereof) to learn in the public school setting.  Brava!


----------



## bodecea

mdn2000 said:


> Public education just sucks period, if it does not make everyone happy, its failed, its that simple. I hated school, to me it was the most boring part of my life, wasted years, I learned to read, I spell like shit, my math skills never reached anything better than a D. When I was finished, I had to go out and get a real education.
> 
> Its the 21st century and our entire government is broken, they have failed us, the only thing left is to starve us and leave us homeless. The educational system is just a symptom of what was wrong in the past is wrong today.
> 
> Eight hours a day at school for thirteen years and people need another four years of education. That is a life dedicated to what and how the government teaches. It sucked.
> 
> Kids should be done with High school at around 16, less if they go to college. It should also take half as many hours a day, which saves us half the money. A kid that has no desire for an education beyond picking fruit, working at McDonalds, or working in a steel mill should have that option.
> 
> Oops, our broken government lost all the jobs to China, Europe, all of Asia, even Canada.
> 
> Some people only wish to be simple people, they need simple jobs, its that simple industry, like steel, chemicals, energy, that we lost that the simple people need.
> 
> Schools have failed but at the same time they need to be modernized, it shoud take a few years less with technology to teach a kid the basics, ten years of school is plenty.
> 
> Of course we should of allowed the banks and wall street to fail, we should of allowed people to lose their homes, we are just delaying the collapse of our system by addressing the symptoms and not the problem. We need to take the power away from the government. If we allowed the banks and homes to fail, prices would be dirt cheap, a guy only interested in flipping hamburgers should not have to work thirty years to pay for a home, he should be able to do it in five years.
> 
> The price of everything is so ridiculous, the simple jobs for the simple people are just about gone.
> 
> We have 9% unemployment, on average, that includes government workers, funny, I bet you that government workers are suffering about a 1% unemployment rate, meaning the people that do the hard work in the private sector are actually closer to 18%, maybe less, I do not know, I went to public schools.



It is what you make of it.  Sorry that you did not come away with much.  I'm sure your teachers tried tho.


----------



## Wicked Jester

bodecea said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think your post stands alone as to showing what lack of education you got and how you did not play well with others.   Thank you for proving my point so easily.  Rarely do I get such cooperation in making my point.
> 
> 
> 
> The only point you've ever made up here is the fact that you're an abject LIAR.......Oh, yeah, and an immoral perve!
> 
> Heard them boo's yet?
> 
> Attended flight school yet?
> 
> Yeah, that's what I thought.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thank you again for proving my point...Rarely do we see such quick response.  Now everyone has a pretty good picture of your level of....ahem...maturity and willingness (or lack thereof) to learn in the public school setting.  Brava!
Click to expand...

Being drunk, bitter, lonely, miserable, and perverted is no way to live your life there, Butch.

Go get some help, ya' seriously need it.


----------



## NYcarbineer

WillowTree said:


> nope,, couldn't find a thing on msnbc or huffingsome..



Because you didn't look on the front page, you stupid splittail?

Breaking News, Weather, Business, Health, Entertainment, Sports, Politics, Travel, Science, Technology, Local, US & World News - msnbc.com


----------



## shintao

Samson said:


> shintao said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> My point is that is is not just possible, but it is the FACT: states that outlaw collective bargaining have MANY of the best schools in the nation.
> 
> Therefore your offer of one of the negative outcomes of ending collective bargaining (that then schools would only be filled with unqualified teachers) simply doesn't happen.
> 
> *Ergo: There are not any negative outcomes of ending collective bargaining for teachers.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course not! Because there is no change made between Union and nonUnion teachers. They just call themselves nonUnion & carry on with Union activities all the way to lobbyist in DC.  Instead of paying dues, they pay for Umbrella Insurance like a doctor does.
> 
> Legal Protection
> 
> Included in the $2,000,000 individual liability insurance policy purchased for each professional member, AAE *Legal Protection benefits ensure that members have access to legal counsel at the onset of workplace issues and Defense costs related to liability insurance claims *are paid in addition to the $2,000,000 limit. Legal coverage applies to any legal action arising out of duties as an employee of an education entity, including:
> 
> civil rights cases
> lawsuits against the insured by parents or other teachers
> lawsuits against the insured for injunctive relief, declaratory relief, or other non-monetary relief
> *sexual misconduct *(if found not guilty or charges are dropped)
> corporal punishment (if found not guilty or charges are dropped)
> 
> 
> 
> Employment Rights Coverage
> 
> Included in the $2,000,000 individual liability insurance policy purchased for each professional member, *AAE Employment Rights Coverage ensures that members have access to legal counsel at the onset of workplace employment issues. Members are able to immediately consult with an attorney if they are threatened with termination, suspension, reassignment, or demotion.* AAE Employment Rights Coverage provides or reimburses for an attorney to be involved with consultation and hearings (up to specified limits).
> 
> Member Benefits
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not sure if we're on the same page:
> 
> A group that collectively bargains with an insurance company =/= a group that collectively bargains with their employer
Click to expand...


OH, so you just oppose having one voice represent many voices for wages & benefits? Isn't that undemocratic of you? UnCapitalistic of you? Do you also oppose Corporate board meetings with CEOs present to negotiate wages & benefits & bonuses? Are they making too much as well?

And it is not an insurance company, it is a teachers association that has insurance as a member benefit.



AAE is America's fastest growing national, nonprofit, *nonunion teachers' association with members *in all 50 states. 



AAE offers professional member benefits such as liability insurance and legal protection, professional development, newsletters, scholarships, classroom grants, and a voice on educational issuesbut at a fraction of the cost of most other associations' dues.


----------



## shintao

bodecea said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think your post stands alone as to showing what lack of education you got and how you did not play well with others.   Thank you for proving my point so easily.  Rarely do I get such cooperation in making my point.
> 
> 
> 
> The only point you've ever made up here is the fact that you're an abject LIAR.......Oh, yeah, and an immoral perve!
> 
> Heard them boo's yet?
> 
> Attended flight school yet?
> 
> Yeah, that's what I thought.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thank you again for proving my point...Rarely do we see such quick response.  Now everyone has a pretty good picture of your level of....ahem...maturity and willingness (or lack thereof) to learn in the public school setting.  Brava!
Click to expand...


Seems he did poorly in school, while other smart kids were getting the A+s, and now he wants to blame incompetent teachers for his dragging nut sack. LOL!


----------



## Wicked Jester

shintao said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> The only point you've ever made up here is the fact that you're an abject LIAR.......Oh, yeah, and an immoral perve!
> 
> Heard them boo's yet?
> 
> Attended flight school yet?
> 
> Yeah, that's what I thought.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you again for proving my point...Rarely do we see such quick response.  Now everyone has a pretty good picture of your level of....ahem...maturity and willingness (or lack thereof) to learn in the public school setting.  Brava!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Seems he did poorly in school, while other smart kids were getting the A+s, and now he wants to blame incompetent teachers for his dragging nut sack. LOL!
Click to expand...

Still trying to nail that JELLO to the wall, eh Sparky?

Christ, between you and the Butch, there's some slimey walls and messy floors in your abodes to be sure.

Clean up those messes, slobs!

Fuckin' dumbasses!


----------



## N4mddissent

Wicked Jester said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> The only point you've ever made up here is the fact that you're an abject LIAR.......Oh, yeah, and an immoral perve!
> 
> Being drunk, bitter, lonely, miserable, and perverted is no way to live your life there, Butch.
> 
> Go get some help, ya' seriously need it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Boy, you really told her ranger joe. Did you think of those all by yourself or did you have to reach back into your childhood when daddy didn't love you enough and the other kids picked on you? You're a real studly guy to be able to call someone names when you don't agree with them.  With all that mental muscle you should be able to walk AND chew gum.
> 
> When did USMB just become a den of trolls?
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Wicked Jester

N4mddissent said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> Boy, you really told her ranger joe. Did you think of those all by yourself or did you have to reach back into your childhood when daddy didn't love you enough and the other kids picked on you? You're a real studly guy to be able to call someone names when you don't agree with them.  With all that mental muscle you should be able to walk AND chew gum.
> 
> When did USMB just become a den of trolls?
> 
> 
> 
> Stay out of it lil' one. This is between the perve and myself.
> 
> Oh, and the USMB became a a den of trolls when wee ones such as yourself invaded it.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## JFK_USA

Wicked Jester said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> I saw a guy on Fox today saying that unions are the reason our education system is where it is.
> That is just absurd.
> 
> 
> 
> And he was absolutely right.
> 
> Just look at the disparity in test scores and graduation rates between non union private and charter school teachers to unionized public school teachers.
> 
> Those numbers tell the real story. Those numbers are what the unions fear most.
Click to expand...


Okay then, post it. 

You got proof show it. Oh and also leave out the charter schools because those are usually kids have to test into those schools so they are obviously the better student so they will test better. 

Also, usually rich people have the resources to pay for things like tutors, personal lessons, and other things that people who send their kids to public schools can't afford. 

So even if you are right. That doesn't mean Unions = poor students. Its a bigger social problem than that.


----------



## JFK_USA

N4mddissent said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> N4mddissent said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then they have to listen to lots of other people jump on the "blame the teacher" bandwagon just because it is more convenient to blame teachers or it fits better with their political ideology or just utter bombastic nonsense about issues of which they have no real knowledge.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is convenient to "blame the teachers."
> 
> However, every other "professional" is measured by their accomplishments...why should teachers be any different? They are, after all PUBLIC School teachers. They are supposed to teach the PUBLIC, not just kids that come from perfect households, and who have high values of self motivation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because most other professions rely more upon the actions of the professional than upon the actions of others...especially minors to which you have limited access and control.  If doctors were not judged by how much they helped patients heal, but how healthy they were.  Imagine if we judged doctors as shit because too many of their patients are getting fat and it's making them sick. Or perhaps their patient is smoking and getting cancer.  That is what we're doing with teachers.  They can't control whether little johnny goes home and studies or whether he simply picks up his xbox and plays all night.  They can't control that little suzie is too busy texting her friends all night and her parents can't be bothered to attend a teacher conference.  But yet they are judged "poor teachers" when little johnny and suzy fail their tests.
Click to expand...


I couldn't have said it better myself. Please keep posting. I mean Annie, Samson and other republicans are like this:







*Durr....Unions are problem. Me think Union busting solve all problem. Ugh.*

Yet the problem is much more complex and the unions are at best 1% of the educational problems in this country.


----------



## shintao

JFK_USA said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> I saw a guy on Fox today saying that unions are the reason our education system is where it is.
> That is just absurd.
> 
> 
> 
> And he was absolutely right.
> 
> Just look at the disparity in test scores and graduation rates between non union private and charter school teachers to unionized public school teachers.
> 
> Those numbers tell the real story. Those numbers are what the unions fear most.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Okay then, post it.
> 
> You got proof show it. Oh and also leave out the charter schools because those are usually kids have to test into those schools so they are obviously the better student so they will test better.
> 
> Also, usually rich people have the resources to pay for things like tutors, personal lessons, and other things that people who send their kids to public schools can't afford.
> 
> So even if you are right. That doesn't mean Unions = poor students. Its a bigger social problem than that.
Click to expand...


IF he lies about small things like "incompetent teachers," I can image what he can do with a big assignment like this. LMAO!!


----------



## bodecea

Wicked Jester said:


> N4mddissent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> Stay out of it lil' one. This is between the perve and myself.
> 
> Oh, and the USMB became a a den of trolls when wee ones such as yourself invaded it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would say that we have almost never had such a shining example of the kind of person that our public school teachers have to deal with in order to teach thru to the other students.
> 
> Can anyone here JUST IMAGINE what Wicked Jester was like in the classroom?   Can anyone JUST IMAGINE how the teachers earned their pay when he was in their classes?  Can anyone JUST IMAGINE how the teachers and other students cringed when he came in the room (probably tardy) and cheered when he was suspended?
> 
> Wicked is a shining example as to how some teachers may not have been paid enough.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## N4mddissent

Wicked Jester said:


> N4mddissent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> Stay out of it lil' one. This is between the perve and myself.
> 
> Oh, and the USMB became a a den of trolls when wee ones such as yourself invaded it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the lil comment.  Former offensive linemen don't get that very often. And people who have read my posts know that I'm not a troll.  I rarely make it a point to call names.  It is the lowest form of argument and is the sign of an intellectual midget whose arguments can't stand the scrutiny of reason. So they lash out and call people with whom they disagree names like "perv".
> 
> Just keep sitting around in Malibu thinking big thoughts like, "huh, huh, I called a lesbian 'Butch'...I'm so damn clever" and the I'll talk with the grown-up men and women who can have a coherent and reasonable discussion.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## bodecea

Wicked Jester said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> The only point you've ever made up here is the fact that you're an abject LIAR.......Oh, yeah, and an immoral perve!
> 
> Heard them boo's yet?
> 
> Attended flight school yet?
> 
> Yeah, that's what I thought.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you again for proving my point...Rarely do we see such quick response.  Now everyone has a pretty good picture of your level of....ahem...maturity and willingness (or lack thereof) to learn in the public school setting.  Brava!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *Being drunk, bitter, lonely, miserable, and perverted is no way to live your life *there, Butch.
> 
> Go get some help, ya' seriously need it.
Click to expand...



Then, you certainly need to do something about it since it's quite evident by your posts that you are batting 1000 in that regard, Wicked.


----------



## bodecea

shintao said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> The only point you've ever made up here is the fact that you're an abject LIAR.......Oh, yeah, and an immoral perve!
> 
> Heard them boo's yet?
> 
> Attended flight school yet?
> 
> Yeah, that's what I thought.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you again for proving my point...Rarely do we see such quick response.  Now everyone has a pretty good picture of your level of....ahem...maturity and willingness (or lack thereof) to learn in the public school setting.  Brava!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Seems he did poorly in school, while other smart kids were getting the A+s, and now he wants to blame incompetent teachers for his dragging nut sack. LOL!
Click to expand...



He's the type of student that I'm sure was disruptive,  non-responsive and the school yard bully.  He has "Bully" written all over him.   Too bad he didn't learn people skills...or much else.   Our tax dollars were wasted, sad to see.


----------



## HUGGY

LibocalypseNow said:


> Kudos to new Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker!
> 
> More brave Politicians need to start standing up to the corrupt Teacher Unions. The Teacher Unions have brought our Public School System to its knees. It has become all about them. It's all about getting that cash for them. They don't care about the kids anymore. They also only want to force their politics and social experimenting on the kids at this point. Their number one goal these last few decades has been to brainwash the children and create good little future adult Democrats. They stopped teaching the kids the basics of Education a long time ago.
> 
> Teacher Unions now only do far more harm than they do good. It's time for them to go away. The Public School System will be so much better off when they're gone. The Kids could actually start learning again. American kids continue to fall further & further behind other far less developed and less wealthy nations. I do blame the Teacher Unions for this. They have become too obsessed with the cash and creating good little future adult Democrats. They have lost their way. Get rid of the Teacher Unions and our Public School System might just be salvaged.



So let me get this straight...  Teachers "suck money" and you for a different example "earn" yours.

Both of my parents college graduates at the University of Washington decided to offer something back to the community and went back to college after retiring from their vocations.. They invested many thousands of their own dollars getting accredited to teach.  My dad, a writer, for the Boeing co. ..he made commercials for selling commercial aircraft...  My mom ... well she was just rich..Her only job before getting married was a writer for Hallmark. Up on Orcas she tutored students in English decided to take it to the next level.   

Dad taught Communications, marketing and making commercials to HS students for about ten years and Mom took her teaching to Montana and Wyoming Indian reservations and taught English, writing, math and history for free.  They both worked very hard to get credited to teach and worked even harder to pass their knowledge along.  

I take offense at your assumptions.  It is my experience that most teachers work very hard.  You have done a dis service to them for what purpose?  Are THEY the cause of the economic conditions that have led to this?  It was the idiots and thieves that created this mess that have received bonuses for their treachery.  How many of them have been sent to prison?

Using the theft and deceit by some in the financial institutions as an excuse to take away collective bargaining is vile.  You should be ashamed of yourself.


----------



## LibocalypseNow

Teachers need to accept that it's not just the parents & children who are responsible for our Public School collapse. Teachers played a big part in this collapse. I have yet to see Teachers own up to their responsibility in the collapse. They're always blaming someone else. Teacher Unions have fought viciously against any standards testing evaluations of Teacher job performance. Why have they fought so hard against that? These testing evaluations would ensure that our children are only being taught by the best of the best. These tests would also reward Teachers who excel. Their hostile opposition to that really is pathetic. 

It's just time for Teachers to compromise and make some concessions. They want more cash? Well they're going to have to accept more responsibility and accountability. No more free rides. Until these Unions are ready to compromise,their only support is going to come from the usual suspect fringe element. Most people are just tired of all their whining and complaining. It is what it is.


----------



## The T

LibocalypseNow said:


> Teachers need to accept that it's not just the parents & children who are responsible for our Public School collapse. Teachers played a big part in this collapse. I have yet to see Teachers own up to their responsibility in the collapse. They're always blaming someone else. Teacher Unions have fought viciously against any standards testing evaluations of Teacher job performance. Why have they fought so hard against that? These testing evaluations would ensure that our children are only being taught by the best of the best. These tests would also reward Teachers who excel. It's just time for Teachers to compromise and make some concessions. They want more cash? Well they're going to have to accept more responsibility and accountability. No more free rides. Until these Unions are ready to compromise,their only support is going to come from the usual suspect fringe element. Most people are just tired of all their whining and complaining. It is what it is.


 
And Tenure needs to be a thing of the past and not a shield to hide behind for poor performance.


----------



## Wicked Jester

N4mddissent said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> N4mddissent said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the lil comment.  Former offensive linemen don't get that very often. And people who have read my posts know that I'm not a troll.  I rarely make it a point to call names.  It is the lowest form of argument and is the sign of an intellectual midget whose arguments can't stand the scrutiny of reason. So they lash out and call people with whom they disagree names like "perv".
> 
> Just keep sitting around in Malibu thinking big thoughts like, "huh, huh, I called a lesbian 'Butch'...I'm so damn clever" and the I'll talk with the grown-up men and women who can have a coherent and reasonable discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> Former offensive lineman in Pop Warner football doesn't count, lil' one.
> 
> Stay out of it. This is between Butch and myself........She's said plenty to me in the past. If you know not what you speak of, then beat feet. She started it long ago. I just continue to finish it.......Believe me, wee one, you're not coming to the rescue of a fair maiden whatsoever......She's not the person you think she is. I exposed her acts and lies long ago. She wants to continue getting hammered by running her big mouth, that's her problem. I'll accomodate her every time.
> 
> Now, run along!
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## HUGGY

Oh...I forgot to mention that both of my parents were life long republicans.  I doubt they "taught" any children to be democrats.


----------



## rdean

Right wingers should just ban teachers in their states.  Most of their kids drop out anyway so what's the big deal.  Look at all the money they would save is they closed down unnecessary schools that taught all that lying science.  Besides, it's the blue states that mostly foot the bill.  If they have any class, they would refuse the money.


----------



## LibocalypseNow

With most Teachers it's just the same ole same ole. It's always the kids & parent's fault. But it's never the Teacher's fault. Well that's just cop-out B.S. to me. Sometimes it really is the Teacher. Blaming everyone else is just their way of giving themselves a free pass. Teachers need to be held to tougher & higher standards. Maybe if the Unions allow this,the big bucks will follow? Demanding more cash while our Public Schools are failing so miserably,just doesn't sit well with most Americans. I can't feel any sympathy for the Teacher Unions at this point.


----------



## Wicked Jester

libocalypsenow said:


> teachers need to accept that it's not just the parents & children who are responsible for our public school collapse. Teachers played a big part in this collapse. I have yet to see teachers own up to their responsibility in the collapse. They're always blaming someone else. Teacher unions have fought viciously against any standards testing evaluations of teacher job performance. Why have they fought so hard against that? These testing evaluations would ensure that our children are only being taught by the best of the best. These tests would also reward teachers who excel. Their hostile opposition to that really is pathetic.
> 
> It's just time for teachers to compromise and make some concessions. They want more cash? Well they're going to have to accept more responsibility and accountability. No more free rides. Until these unions are ready to compromise,their only support is going to come from the usual suspect fringe element. Most people are just tired of all their whining and complaining. It is what it is.


bingo!


----------



## JFK_USA

LibocalypseNow said:


> Teachers need to accept that it's not just the parents & children who are responsible for our Public School collapse. Teachers played a big part in this collapse. I have yet to see Teachers own up to their responsibility in the collapse. They're always blaming someone else. Teacher Unions have fought viciously against any standards testing evaluations of Teacher job performance. Why have they fought so hard against that? These testing evaluations would ensure that our children are only being taught by the best of the best. These tests would also reward Teachers who excel. Their hostile opposition to that really is pathetic.
> 
> It's just time for Teachers to compromise and make some concessions. They want more cash? Well they're going to have to accept more responsibility and accountability. No more free rides. Until these Unions are ready to compromise,their only support is going to come from the usual suspect fringe element. Most people are just tired of all their whining and complaining. It is what it is.



Really so how much you want to pay these well qualified teachers because they aren't going to be cheap which means your taxes go up? 

But we can't raise taxes right? 

Teachers need to take a big role? They didn't have a free ride. They worked their ass off to get tenure. In my school, only 3 teachers have tenure, the youngest one to have it is 45. She has been teaching for 23 years and finally got tenure. They don't just give it to you, you have to have a proven track record of success with children. 

But there job is depended on 15 year olds and how well they pay attention. I see kids in class drawing on their notebooks, doing other classes homework in my classes and trying to secretly text their awesome new girlfriend or boyfriend. 

We don't got much to prevent it. Facing lawsuits if we hit kids, or try to take away their phones. We only have 34 hours a week with these kids, thats only 21% of the week. Who is in charge of the other 79%? THE PARENTS. We can do so much yet now we have to take more responsiblity from parents who don't sit down with their kids and do their jobs? Please.


----------



## bodecea

The T said:


> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers need to accept that it's not just the parents & children who are responsible for our Public School collapse. Teachers played a big part in this collapse. I have yet to see Teachers own up to their responsibility in the collapse. They're always blaming someone else. Teacher Unions have fought viciously against any standards testing evaluations of Teacher job performance. Why have they fought so hard against that? These testing evaluations would ensure that our children are only being taught by the best of the best. These tests would also reward Teachers who excel. It's just time for Teachers to compromise and make some concessions. They want more cash? Well they're going to have to accept more responsibility and accountability. No more free rides. Until these Unions are ready to compromise,their only support is going to come from the usual suspect fringe element. Most people are just tired of all their whining and complaining. It is what it is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And Tenure needs to be a thing of the past and not a shield to hide behind for poor performance.
Click to expand...


Define Tenure for us.


----------



## bodecea

Wicked Jester said:


> N4mddissent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> Former offensive lineman in Pop Warner football doesn't count, lil' one.
> 
> Stay out of it. This is between Butch and myself........She's said plenty to me in the past. If you know not what you speak of, then beat feet. She started it long ago. I just continue to finish it.......Believe me, wee one, you're not coming to the rescue of a fair maiden whatsoever......She's not the person you think she is. I exposed her acts and lies long ago. She wants to continue getting hammered by running her big mouth, that's her problem. I'll accomodate her every time.
> 
> Now, run along!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You don't like it that your bullying ways are recognized for what they are, do you?   Don't be afraid, you have your little drunken syncophant to back you up.....maybe....unless that's him passed out in the corner.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## The T

rdean said:


> Right wingers should just ban teachers in their states. Most of their kids drop out anyway so what's the big deal. Look at all the money they would save is they closed down unnecessary schools that taught all that lying science. Besides, it's the blue states that mostly foot the bill. If they have any class, they would refuse the money.


 
That's why parents opt for Charter and Homeschooling...even those schools that are attached to that eeeeevil religion deany-bub...by _their choice..._

As it should be. Government doesn't exist to give people jobs...especially teaching our children.

That belongs to the parents, and localities/States. The DOE needs to go as do the Unions.


----------



## Wicked Jester

bodecea said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> N4mddissent said:
> 
> 
> 
> You don't like it that your bullying ways are recognized for what they are, do you?   Don't be afraid, you have your little drunken syncophant to back you up.....maybe....unless that's him passed out in the corner.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if you consider calling you out on all your abject lies that you constantly tell up here to be "bullying", then that's your problem......You should learn to just keep your mouth shut and avoid me.......And, YOU are not my 'syncophant", Butch. Therefore, I don't have a drunk backing me up. I can't stand drunks who pass out in corners hence, that's why I can't stand YOU!
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## bodecea

The T said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> Right wingers should just ban teachers in their states. Most of their kids drop out anyway so what's the big deal. Look at all the money they would save is they closed down unnecessary schools that taught all that lying science. Besides, it's the blue states that mostly foot the bill. If they have any class, they would refuse the money.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's why parents opt for Charter and Homeschooling...even those schools that are attached to that eeeeevil religion deany-bub...by _their choice..._
> 
> As it should be. Government doesn't exist to give people jobs...especially teaching our children.
> 
> That belongs to the parents, and localities/States. The DOE needs to go as do the Unions.
Click to expand...


Define Tenure for us....most people not in Education don't even know what the word means.


----------



## Wicked Jester

bodecea said:


> The T said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> Right wingers should just ban teachers in their states. Most of their kids drop out anyway so what's the big deal. Look at all the money they would save is they closed down unnecessary schools that taught all that lying science. Besides, it's the blue states that mostly foot the bill. If they have any class, they would refuse the money.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's why parents opt for Charter and Homeschooling...even those schools that are attached to that eeeeevil religion deany-bub...by _their choice..._
> 
> As it should be. Government doesn't exist to give people jobs...especially teaching our children.
> 
> That belongs to the parents, and localities/States. The DOE needs to go as do the Unions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Define Tenure for us....most people not in Education don't even know what the word means.
Click to expand...

Too stupid to find out for yourself?

Figures.


----------



## bodecea

Wicked Jester said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The T said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's why parents opt for Charter and Homeschooling...even those schools that are attached to that eeeeevil religion deany-bub...by _their choice..._
> 
> As it should be. Government doesn't exist to give people jobs...especially teaching our children.
> 
> That belongs to the parents, and localities/States. The DOE needs to go as do the Unions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Define Tenure for us....most people not in Education don't even know what the word means.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Too stupid to find out for yourself?
> 
> Figures.
Click to expand...


I am perfectly aware of what Tenure is...sadly many people are not and hold it up like some awful boogeyman that means that teachers cannot be fired.   Wrong and wrong.  So, obviously you have no idea what tenure is, thus the rude bullying answer.   So predictable you are.


----------



## Wicked Jester

bodecea said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> Define Tenure for us....most people not in Education don't even know what the word means.
> 
> 
> 
> Too stupid to find out for yourself?
> 
> Figures.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I am perfectly aware of what Tenure is...sadly many people are not and hold it up like some awful boogeyman that means that teachers cannot be fired.   Wrong and wrong.  So, obviously you have no idea what tenure is, thus the rude bullying answer.   So predictable you are.
Click to expand...

If you are perfectly aware of what tenure is, then why in the fuck are you asking for it to be explained?


----------



## The T

Wicked Jester said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The T said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's why parents opt for Charter and Homeschooling...even those schools that are attached to that eeeeevil religion deany-bub...by _their choice..._
> 
> As it should be. Government doesn't exist to give people jobs...especially teaching our children.
> 
> That belongs to the parents, and localities/States. The DOE needs to go as do the Unions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Define Tenure for us....most people not in Education don't even know what the word means.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Too stupid to find out for yourself?
> 
> Figures.
Click to expand...

 
She's being idiotically obteuse...otherwise known as shit normal.


----------



## bodecea

The T said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> Define Tenure for us....most people not in Education don't even know what the word means.
> 
> 
> 
> Too stupid to find out for yourself?
> 
> Figures.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> She's being idiotically* obteuse...*otherwise known as shit normal.
Click to expand...


Heavy drinking hits the typing/spelling centers first.   Just sayin'.....


----------



## shintao

The T said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> Right wingers should just ban teachers in their states. Most of their kids drop out anyway so what's the big deal. Look at all the money they would save is they closed down unnecessary schools that taught all that lying science. Besides, it's the blue states that mostly foot the bill. If they have any class, they would refuse the money.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's why parents opt for Charter and Homeschooling...even those schools that are attached to that eeeeevil religion deany-bub...by _their choice..._
> 
> As it should be. Government doesn't exist to give people jobs*...especially teaching our children.*
> That belongs to the parents, and localities/States. The DOE needs to go as do the Unions.
Click to expand...


So now your conservative religion has walked you away from the founding fathers as well. sigh, not surprised a bit.............

"If Congress can employ money indefinitely to the general welfare, and are the sole and supreme judges of the general welfare,..........they may take into their own hands the education of children, establishing in like manner schools throughout the Union;"  James Madison's argument against general welfare that was quickly defeated.

Alexander Hamilton, argued for a broad interpretation which viewed spending as an enumerated power Congress could exercise independently to benefit the general welfare, such as to assist national needs in agriculture or education, provided that the spending is general in nature and does not favor any specific section of the country over any other.


----------



## bodecea

Wicked Jester said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> Too stupid to find out for yourself?
> 
> Figures.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am perfectly aware of what Tenure is...sadly many people are not and hold it up like some awful boogeyman that means that teachers cannot be fired.   Wrong and wrong.  So, obviously you have no idea what tenure is, thus the rude bullying answer.   So predictable you are.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If you are perfectly aware of what tenure is, then why in the fuck are you asking for it to be explained?
Click to expand...


So, it's pretty well established that you don't know and want to goad me into revealing the correct answer....like bullying test answers from fellow students.  Those bad habits die hard, don't they, Wicked?


----------



## shintao

Wicked Jester said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The T said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's why parents opt for Charter and Homeschooling...even those schools that are attached to that eeeeevil religion deany-bub...by _their choice..._
> 
> As it should be. Government doesn't exist to give people jobs...especially teaching our children.
> 
> That belongs to the parents, and localities/States. The DOE needs to go as do the Unions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Define Tenure for us....most people not in Education don't even know what the word means.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Too stupid to find out for yourself?
> 
> Figures.
Click to expand...


Hmm, went over the uneducated imbecile's head.


----------



## shintao

bodecea said:


> The T said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> Too stupid to find out for yourself?
> 
> Figures.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She's being idiotically* obteuse...*otherwise known as shit normal.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Heavy drinking hits the typing/spelling centers first.   Just sayin'.....
Click to expand...


Those two must have had the same drunk incompetent teacher, huh?


----------



## JohnnyApplesack

LibocalypseNow said:


> *Just Go Away Teachers!... *



After reading your embarrassing spiel it looks like that happened years and years ago.


----------



## Wicked Jester

bodecea said:


> The T said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> Too stupid to find out for yourself?
> 
> Figures.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She's being idiotically* obteuse...*otherwise known as shit normal.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Heavy drinking hits the typing/spelling centers first.   Just sayin'.....
Click to expand...

Seeing as though you're the boards biggest drunk, amongst other things, you would know!


----------



## rhodescholar

Gem said:


> What I AM saying, however...is that this notion that its the BAD teachers that are causing all the problems and that if we could just get rid of unions everything would be fine...is simply laughable.  Are their bad teachers?  Absolutely.  Do they cause problems?  Absolutely.  Should there be easier ways to fire them?  ABSO-FREAKIN-LUTELY!  But certainly not in the amount that some here seem to think...in fact, most teachers are highly educated, highly qualified, deeply involved and caring employees who - if taken out of a collective bargaining system, would be in a position to ask for (and be worth) a hell of a lot more than 40,000.  And I don't think all the people here who claim they want to pay good teachers what they are really worth would be singing the same tune when they saw what that bill looks like.



Who here is making that claim?  Public employee unions for ALL public employees are a huge problem, not just for teachers...


----------



## shintao

rhodescholar said:


> Gem said:
> 
> 
> 
> What I AM saying, however...is that this notion that its the BAD teachers that are causing all the problems and that if we could just get rid of unions everything would be fine...is simply laughable.  Are their bad teachers?  Absolutely.  Do they cause problems?  Absolutely.  Should there be easier ways to fire them?  ABSO-FREAKIN-LUTELY!  But certainly not in the amount that some here seem to think...in fact, most teachers are highly educated, highly qualified, deeply involved and caring employees who - if taken out of a collective bargaining system, would be in a position to ask for (and be worth) a hell of a lot more than 40,000.  And I don't think all the people here who claim they want to pay good teachers what they are really worth would be singing the same tune when they saw what that bill looks like.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who here is making that claim?  Public employee unions for ALL public employees are a huge problem, not just for teachers...
Click to expand...


Yep, when the unions shut down government the problem is going to be huge........


----------



## bodecea

Wicked Jester said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The T said:
> 
> 
> 
> She's being idiotically* obteuse...*otherwise known as shit normal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Heavy drinking hits the typing/spelling centers first.   Just sayin'.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Seeing as though you're the boards biggest drunk, amongst other things, you would know!
Click to expand...


Now, THAT was well thought out.   Shall we blame Public School Teachers for your lack of originality?


----------



## TominNH

Teachers unions are there to protect teachers' jobs! The GOP has been on a union busting campaign since Raygun! WHY? So they can lower labor costs ( which also lowers the American standard of living!)
They also want to eliminate tenure, which only means that the school ha to provide documented cause to dismiss a teacher. The reason for that is that they want to be able to fire teachers when they start to make good money and hire cheaper teachers. This GOP campaign cocntinues all across the country! It's not about corruption, tenure etc........  it's about MONEY!


----------



## bodecea

Isn't it odd that since last nite, not one person has been able to define "Tenure" for us even tho they rant against it?

Should we blame their teachers for them being so woefully inadequate in the educated department?


----------



## Stephanie

Unions have become nothing more than an ARM of the Democrat party. 
And they use their members as COMMUNITY AGAITATORS against the REST of the American people.
It's time to *bust the hell* out of them.


----------



## bodecea

Stephanie said:


> Unions have become nothing more than an ARM of the Democrat party. Nothing more.
> And they use their members as COMMUNITY AGAITATORS against the REST of the American people.
> It's time to *bust the hell* out of them.



And then you can fire at will and go for those willing to be paid the lowest for your teachers, nurses, firemen, and police.   YAY!!!


----------



## Stephanie

bodecea said:


> Stephanie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Unions have become nothing more than an ARM of the Democrat party. Nothing more.
> And they use their members as COMMUNITY AGAITATORS against the REST of the American people.
> It's time to *bust the hell* out of them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And then you can fire at will and go for those willing to be paid the lowest for your teachers, nurses, firemen, and police.   YAY!!!
Click to expand...


Oh dear me, THE DRAMA.


----------



## bodecea

Stephanie said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stephanie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Unions have become nothing more than an ARM of the Democrat party. Nothing more.
> And they use their members as COMMUNITY AGAITATORS against the REST of the American people.
> It's time to *bust the hell* out of them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And then you can fire at will and go for those willing to be paid the lowest for your teachers, nurses, firemen, and police.   YAY!!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh dear me, THE DRAMA.
Click to expand...


Isn't that what you want, Stephanie?   And you call your own wishes "Drama"?   Ok, now that we've established that.....are you a product of public education?  Can we blame your teachers for your apparent lack of vocabulary?


----------



## Stephanie

bodecea said:


> Stephanie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> And then you can fire at will and go for those willing to be paid the lowest for your teachers, nurses, firemen, and police.   YAY!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh dear me, THE DRAMA.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Isn't that what you want, Stephanie?   And you call your own wishes "Drama"?   Ok, now that we've established that.....are you a product of public education?  Can we blame your teachers for your apparent lack of vocabulary?
Click to expand...


At times less words says it all. You should try it sometime.


----------



## NYcarbineer

Wisconsin ranks about 9th in education in this country.

Want to guess how that compares to the average CONSERVATIVE RIGHT TO WORK state?


----------



## Skull Pilot

Why should teachers be exempt from contributing to their own retirement?

Why should they be exempt from paying for a portion of their health insurance?

Most people do both and don't whine about it.


----------



## NYcarbineer

The simplest reason conservatives want to destroy education in this country?

The better educated you are, the less likely you are to be conservative.


----------



## NYcarbineer

Skull Pilot said:


> Why should teachers be exempt from contributing to their own retirement?
> 
> Why should they be exempt from paying for a portion of their health insurance?
> 
> Most people do both and don't whine about it.



They are not exempt.  This is a myth.  

You get a total compensation package from your employer.  If your employer is paying directly into your retirement, or if you pay part from your salary, 

it's mathematically no different.  

If you make 50,000 a year in salary and your employer pays 5,000 into your retirement, your compensation is 55,000.  If you make 55,000 a year with nothing paid by your employer, your compensation is 55,000.


----------



## Stephanie

NYcarbineer said:


> The simplest reason conservatives want to destroy education in this country?
> 
> The better educated you are, the less likely you are to be conservative.



yeah, that MUST be it.
If we is all as edumacated as you lefties, then when would you be able to tell us we be all the STUPID ONES.


----------



## Skull Pilot

NYcarbineer said:


> The simplest reason conservatives want to destroy education in this country?
> 
> The better educated you are, the less likely you are to be conservative.



How is requiring teachers to pay a little bit for their health insurance and retirement "destroying" education?


----------



## bodecea

Skull Pilot said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> The simplest reason conservatives want to destroy education in this country?
> 
> The better educated you are, the less likely you are to be conservative.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How is requiring teachers to pay a little bit for their health insurance and retirement "destroying" education?
Click to expand...


If I am not mistaken, the WI teachers did that very thing last year.  Plus a pay cut.


----------



## Skull Pilot

bodecea said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> The simplest reason conservatives want to destroy education in this country?
> 
> The better educated you are, the less likely you are to be conservative.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How is requiring teachers to pay a little bit for their health insurance and retirement "destroying" education?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If I am not mistaken, the WI teachers did that very thing last year.  Plus a pay cut.
Click to expand...


So they contributed to their own health insurance and retirement for one year?

Oh the horrors.

I've been contributing to my own retirement since I started working.   And I pay for ALL of my own health insurance.  The union hack teachers get no sympathy from me.

If they want sympathy they can look in the dictionary between shit and syphilis.


----------



## bodecea

Skull Pilot said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> How is requiring teachers to pay a little bit for their health insurance and retirement "destroying" education?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If I am not mistaken, the WI teachers did that very thing last year.  Plus a pay cut.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So they contributed to their own health insurance and retirement for one year?
> 
> Oh the horrors.
> 
> I've been contributing to o my own retirement since I started working.   And I pay for ALL of my own health insurance.  The union hack teachers get no sympathy from me.
> 
> If they want sympathy they can look in the dictionary between shit and syphilis.
Click to expand...


Apparently you do not want to hear about the truth.  Color me surprised.  Bash away.


----------



## Stephanie

I say let these Unions and Teachers go on this way, I hope it SPREADS.

Then the American people will SEE exactly what they are doing AGAINST the REST of the people in this country who don't BELONG to a Union.

Then maybe IT WILL WAKE THEM UP and they will get behind the movement to bust them up.


----------



## Skull Pilot

bodecea said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> If I am not mistaken, the WI teachers did that very thing last year.  Plus a pay cut.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So they contributed to their own health insurance and retirement for one year?
> 
> Oh the horrors.
> 
> I've been contributing to o my own retirement since I started working.   And I pay for ALL of my own health insurance.  The union hack teachers get no sympathy from me.
> 
> If they want sympathy they can look in the dictionary between shit and syphilis.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Apparently you do not want to hear about the truth.  Color me surprised.  Bash away.
Click to expand...


What truth?  You gave no proof .

All the Governor wants is for the fucking union hacks to pay 12% of their health insurance and 5.6% into their retirement funds.

Those are not unreasonable figures.  In fact it's still way better than the private sector.


----------



## NYcarbineer

Stephanie said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> The simplest reason conservatives want to destroy education in this country?
> 
> The better educated you are, the less likely you are to be conservative.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yeah, that MUST be it.
> If we is all as edumacated as you lefties, then when would you be able to tell us we be all the STUPID ONES.
Click to expand...



Smartest State 2006-2007

Where are your red states on that list, on average?


----------



## NYcarbineer

Skull Pilot said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> The simplest reason conservatives want to destroy education in this country?
> 
> The better educated you are, the less likely you are to be conservative.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How is requiring teachers to pay a little bit for their health insurance and retirement "destroying" education?
Click to expand...


And requiring teachers to give up their rights to even bargain collectively?

You seem to keep leaving that part out.


----------



## NYcarbineer

bodecea said:


> The T said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> Too stupid to find out for yourself?
> 
> Figures.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She's being idiotically* obteuse...*otherwise known as shit normal.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Heavy drinking hits the typing/spelling centers first.   Just sayin'.....
Click to expand...


I think he was trying to insult you in French.


----------



## Stephanie

nycarbineer said:


> skull pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nycarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> the simplest reason conservatives want to destroy education in this country?
> 
> The better educated you are, the less likely you are to be conservative.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> how is requiring teachers to pay a little bit for their health insurance and retirement "destroying" education?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *and requiring teachers to give up their rights to even bargain collectively?*
> 
> you seem to keep leaving that part out.
Click to expand...


 the big lie


----------



## Skull Pilot

NYcarbineer said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> The simplest reason conservatives want to destroy education in this country?
> 
> The better educated you are, the less likely you are to be conservative.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How is requiring teachers to pay a little bit for their health insurance and retirement "destroying" education?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And requiring teachers to give up their rights to even bargain collectively?
> 
> You seem to keep leaving that part out.
Click to expand...


The only things off the table for collective bargaining are the small contributions to health insurance and retirement.  And sorry the union hacks get no sympathy for having to minimally fund those benefits,  Every other working stiff has to.

Again how is that "destroying" education?


----------



## bodecea

Charles_Main said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Charles_Main said:
> 
> 
> 
> *If the Teachers of the Wisconsin Union cared about the kids.* They would be in the classroom teaching them. Not out in the streets calling the Governor a Nazi, and crying about Wages and Benefits the nearly bankrupt state can not afford to continue to pay.
> 
> If the Governor does not get his way on this, the other option is to lay off many Teachers.
> 
> There simply is no money to pay for their lavish Union Contracts anymore, especially not when you consider they dismal performance of the students they teach.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the Great Weapon used against teachers and unions when they ask for decent wages, health care, etc.
> 
> Heck, let's tell the truth....if Teachers cared about their students...they'd work for free, let government run over them with a bull dozer and kindly ask for more.
> 
> Apparently the best teacher is one who has no self-worth or self-esteem.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nobody is asking them to work for free, *so please STFU.*If they cared, they would not shut down the schools, like they have for the last 2 days, to go out in the streets and scream to keep the Status Quo, when the status Quo is unsustainable.
> 
> Walker is not doing this to be a dick. He was elected with a mandate to get Wisconsin's Fiscal House in order, as long as the Teachers Unions continue to get everything the last governor Gave them. There will be no Fiscal order in WIS.
Click to expand...


Silence those that you disagree with?   Are you a product of our American School System?  Shall we blame your teachers?


----------



## Skull Pilot

I'm still waiting for the explanation of how making teachers pay a little bit for their benefits is "destroying education"


----------



## rhodescholar

bodecea said:


> Stephanie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> And then you can fire at will and go for those willing to be paid the lowest for your teachers, nurses, firemen, and police.   YAY!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh dear me, THE DRAMA.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Isn't that what you want, Stephanie?   And you call your own wishes "Drama"?   Ok, now that we've established that.....are you a product of public education?  Can we blame your teachers for your apparent lack of vocabulary?
Click to expand...


The requisite personal attacks by leftist, public employee union defenders who cannot debate on facts, what a shock.


----------



## xsited1

Skull Pilot said:


> I'm still waiting for the explanation of how making teachers pay a little bit for their benefits is "destroying education"



And don't forget that teacher unions are necessary to address the problems of education.


----------



## Mr. Shaman

LibocalypseNow said:


> Kudos to new Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker!
> 
> More brave Politicians need to start standing up to the corrupt Teacher Unions. The Teacher Unions have brought our Public School System to its knees. It has become all about them. It's all about getting that cash for them.


*Absolutely!!!!*

Why can't they act like *Real Americans* (as *Michele Bachmann* calls them)....those folks who *settle* for *whatever* *Corporate America* deems *sufficient*-wages....when the *Corporates* are *already* _cutting costs_ (nearly) *to-the-bone!!!!!*



> *Lennar CEO's Pay Rose 31 Percent In 2010*


----------



## Wicked Jester

Skull Pilot said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> So they contributed to their own health insurance and retirement for one year?
> 
> Oh the horrors.
> 
> I've been contributing to o my own retirement since I started working.   And I pay for ALL of my own health insurance.  The union hack teachers get no sympathy from me.
> 
> If they want sympathy they can look in the dictionary between shit and syphilis.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently you do not want to hear about the truth.  Color me surprised.  Bash away.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What truth?  You gave no proof .
> 
> All the Governor wants is for the fucking union hacks to pay 12% of their health insurance and 5.6% into their retirement funds.
> 
> Those are not unreasonable figures.  In fact it's still way better than the private sector.
Click to expand...

True that........It's either bite the bullet and pay their own way, or face mass lay offs.

It's time for these government employees to start paying their own way. Everybody in the private sector does. There is nothing special about these employees whatsoever.


----------



## Dr.Traveler

Annie said:


> [
> Seems you already know that you've made a couple logical fallacies here. Over generalization and inductive reasoning without substantiation.



You inserted your personal experience, I'm inserting mine.  I work with a pretty large number of kids that want to go into the high schools and teach Mathematics, and I work with a fair number of folks currently teaching Mathematics.  I have teachers littered all throughout my family, friends, church, and social circles.

It's a job where the really bad days, can be really really bad.  And recently there've been a lot more bad days than good for most of the folks I know.


----------



## Dr.Traveler

Annie said:


> Dr.Traveler said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Annie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think someone should keep their job forever, just because they had decent reviews for 3 years or less.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is not how tenure works.  It is a popular misconception of how tenure works.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, it's not a misconception in primary and secondary positions. That is when tenure is given. After that, it's very difficult to get rid of teachers. That's a fact, as of today.
Click to expand...


Very difficult is not the same as "keep their job forever."

Tenure only guarantees you due process before you hit the streets.  And tenure can be voided in a few circumstances that aren't that far fetched.  I've known quite a few folks that though tenure was the "golden ticket" only to end up unemployed.

I will grant, to get fired while tenured requires:
1.  Circumstances far outside your control
2.  Really really screwing up.
3.  Poor perforrmance over an extended period.

What you'd find is that many jobs in the private sector that require specialized skill sets have pretty close to that same level of security.  It just isn't formalized in writing.  For folks that work at a business of any reasonable size, ask yourself this:  What would it take for your IT guy to get fired?


----------



## Dr.Traveler

Skull Pilot said:


> What truth?  You gave no proof .
> 
> All the Governor wants is for the fucking union hacks to pay 12% of their health insurance and 5.6% into their retirement funds.
> 
> Those are not unreasonable figures.  In fact it's still way better than the private sector.



You should really check out the law he's pushing through.  It's far more than that.  The law takes off the table the ability to negotiate almost every aspect of the job for public sector unions and actively works to disband them.

Most folks in the private sector understand that if they want to keep their jobs they'll need to compromise and take a cut.  Most of the folks you're bad mouthing are reasonable people.

When I started my job, I was given the option of buying into the public sector retirement plan or going with a more traditional employer/employee contribution plan.  The public sector plan was pretty much insane in what it offered.  Not being an idiot, I realized immediately that the plan was unsustainable, and as such it'd probably go broke long before I retired.  I went with the more traditional route and haven't regretted it since.

Point out to people that the current status quo is unsustainable, and they'll typically get reasonable.  What they are angry about, and have a right to be angry about, is the outright attempt at making sure that they're unable to effectively bargain in the future.  Not to mention that in the particular case of Wisconsin, there's some political payback in play.


----------



## bodecea

Wicked Jester said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently you do not want to hear about the truth.  Color me surprised.  Bash away.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What truth?  You gave no proof .
> 
> All the Governor wants is for the fucking union hacks to pay 12% of their health insurance and 5.6% into their retirement funds.
> 
> Those are not unreasonable figures.  In fact it's still way better than the private sector.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> True that........It's either bite the bullet and pay their own way, or face mass lay offs.
> 
> It's time for these government employees to start paying their own way. Everybody in the private sector does. There is nothing special about these employees whatsoever.
Click to expand...


You are saying that government employees don't pay their own way?   They don't pay taxes?   Seriously?


----------



## Wicked Jester

bodecea said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> What truth?  You gave no proof .
> 
> All the Governor wants is for the fucking union hacks to pay 12% of their health insurance and 5.6% into their retirement funds.
> 
> Those are not unreasonable figures.  In fact it's still way better than the private sector.
> 
> 
> 
> True that........It's either bite the bullet and pay their own way, or face mass lay offs.
> 
> It's time for these government employees to start paying their own way. Everybody in the private sector does. There is nothing special about these employees whatsoever.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are saying that government employees don't pay their own way?   They don't pay taxes?   Seriously?
Click to expand...

It's either their taxes are raised, or they compromise and start paying more for their goods.

Either way, they are going to have to start making sacrifices just like everybody else. They get far better perks than most private sector employees. that has got to end, or states across this country are going to go bankrupt. That's just the way it is. They can damn sure afford to pay more for their benefits and such.


----------



## Wicked Jester

Dr.Traveler said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> What truth?  You gave no proof .
> 
> All the Governor wants is for the fucking union hacks to pay 12% of their health insurance and 5.6% into their retirement funds.
> 
> Those are not unreasonable figures.  In fact it's still way better than the private sector.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You should really check out the law he's pushing through.  It's far more than that.  The law takes off the table the ability to negotiate almost every aspect of the job for public sector unions and actively works to disband them.
> 
> Most folks in the private sector understand that if they want to keep their jobs they'll need to compromise and take a cut.  Most of the folks you're bad mouthing are reasonable people.
> 
> When I started my job, I was given the option of buying into the public sector retirement plan or going with a more traditional employer/employee contribution plan.  The public sector plan was pretty much insane in what it offered.  Not being an idiot, I realized immediately that the plan was unsustainable, and as such it'd probably go broke long before I retired.  I went with the more traditional route and haven't regretted it since.
> 
> Point out to people that the current status quo is unsustainable, and they'll typically get reasonable.  What they are angry about, and have a right to be angry about, is the outright attempt at making sure that they're unable to effectively bargain in the future.  Not to mention that in the particular case of Wisconsin, there's some political payback in play.
Click to expand...

Reasonable people don't walk off the job and leave the students hanging. Reasonable people don't walk off the job and cause those students families to have to completely rearrange their schedules, too include taking time off from work at a loss of pay, because their kids are not in school. Reasonable politicians don't flee the state in a tizzy, leaving those who voted them into power without a functioning government.

The people you speak of are not reasonable whatsoever. And you trying to make that claim is dowright laughable.


----------



## shintao

As I stated early on, other Union members will also contribute to the cause and bring Wisconsin to its knees. I am predicting a strong Union response across the board, either a National strike, or a state wide strike. Union members will not cross a Union picket line, so if they Union plumber in a state building, sorry, you are out of luck.

*A union mechanic at Kraft Foods, Grabski fears that his livelihood will soon be in peril if the new governor prevails.

"If the state workers go, we are all next," said Grabski, who was tired, tearful and in need of a shave. "This is a defining moment, a defining issue for all of us. They are at war with the middle class."

Madison protests grow, and Senate Democrats dash | StarTribune.com*


----------



## TominNH

Skull Pilot said:


> Why should teachers be exempt from contributing to their own retirement?
> 
> Why should they be exempt from paying for a portion of their health insurance?
> 
> Most people do both and don't whine about it.


skull pilot:

1)  Yhey do!
2) They do this also!
3) That isnt what they're "whining " about! It is the attempt to strip away all collective bargaining rights----   in other words----  it's union busting!

Tenure simply means that if the administration is going to dismiss a teacher, they must document good cause


----------



## mdn2000

Screw the teachers, screw the teachers unions, screw the government employees who's job is to work in education. 

The only thing that needs fixing is that out of control growth of everything in government. 

Most companies become more efficeint as they grow, not the government, it grows and grows and grows, and when the economy rises, it grows more, when the economy shrinks, the government still grows. It never stops.

The only thing wrong with education is the damned Unions, the Government's involvement, and the bureaucrat. 

What kind of person argues that the government needs to do everything, literally everything, name one thing the Liberal does not want the government to do. 

Hell, the government begins counseling of children as to their right to abort babies in schools. 

Who wants the government to literally control every aspect of life. Who are these people, they should move to Cuba or move to Venuzula, anywhere there is still Marxism. 

Teachers, we need less, administrators, we need less. Tax, we need less.


----------



## Wicked Jester

TominNH said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why should teachers be exempt from contributing to their own retirement?
> 
> Why should they be exempt from paying for a portion of their health insurance?
> 
> Most people do both and don't whine about it.
> 
> 
> 
> skull pilot:
> 
> 1)  Yhey do!
> 2) They do this also!
> 3) That isnt what they're "whining " about! It is the attempt to strip away all collective bargaining rights----   in other words----  it's union busting!
> 
> Tenure simply means that if the administration is going to dismiss a teacher, they must document good cause
Click to expand...

They are not trying to bust the union...The union will still have full collective bargaining power regarding salaries......It's about doing away with the unsustainable. The state can no longer afford to have it's taxpayers supplement their benefits. The more that the taxpayers shell out for supplementing, the less money goes into the classrooms and infrastructure.


----------



## mdn2000

bodecea said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Public education just sucks period, if it does not make everyone happy, its failed, its that simple. I hated school, to me it was the most boring part of my life, wasted years, I learned to read, I spell like shit, my math skills never reached anything better than a D. When I was finished, I had to go out and get a real education.
> 
> Its the 21st century and our entire government is broken, they have failed us, the only thing left is to starve us and leave us homeless. The educational system is just a symptom of what was wrong in the past is wrong today.
> 
> Eight hours a day at school for thirteen years and people need another four years of education. That is a life dedicated to what and how the government teaches. It sucked.
> 
> Kids should be done with High school at around 16, less if they go to college. It should also take half as many hours a day, which saves us half the money. A kid that has no desire for an education beyond picking fruit, working at McDonalds, or working in a steel mill should have that option.
> 
> Oops, our broken government lost all the jobs to China, Europe, all of Asia, even Canada.
> 
> Some people only wish to be simple people, they need simple jobs, its that simple industry, like steel, chemicals, energy, that we lost that the simple people need.
> 
> Schools have failed but at the same time they need to be modernized, it shoud take a few years less with technology to teach a kid the basics, ten years of school is plenty.
> 
> Of course we should of allowed the banks and wall street to fail, we should of allowed people to lose their homes, we are just delaying the collapse of our system by addressing the symptoms and not the problem. We need to take the power away from the government. If we allowed the banks and homes to fail, prices would be dirt cheap, a guy only interested in flipping hamburgers should not have to work thirty years to pay for a home, he should be able to do it in five years.
> 
> The price of everything is so ridiculous, the simple jobs for the simple people are just about gone.
> 
> We have 9% unemployment, on average, that includes government workers, funny, I bet you that government workers are suffering about a 1% unemployment rate, meaning the people that do the hard work in the private sector are actually closer to 18%, maybe less, I do not know, I went to public schools.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is what you make of it.  Sorry that you did not come away with much.  I'm sure your teachers tried tho.
Click to expand...


Life is what you make of it, life as a kid is what your parents and the schools make of it. 

My teachers tried, yet they failed. They failed to teach, and being how the government controls education there was no other choice were I lived then one government school. 

It was tough, boring, bullshit. Maybe its me, but so what, school can be much better, one size fits all is bullshit.

Time to have an education revolution, teach basics and have industry for the kids who only care to know the basics.


----------



## Skull Pilot

shintao said:


> As I stated early on, other Union members will also contribute to the cause and bring Wisconsin to its knees. I am predicting a strong Union response across the board, either a National strike, or a state wide strike. Union members will not cross a Union picket line, so if they Union plumber in a state building, sorry, you are out of luck.
> 
> *A union mechanic at Kraft Foods, Grabski fears that his livelihood will soon be in peril if the new governor prevails.
> 
> "If the state workers go, we are all next," said Grabski, who was tired, tearful and in need of a shave. "This is a defining moment, a defining issue for all of us. They are at war with the middle class."
> 
> Madison protests grow, and Senate Democrats dash | StarTribune.com*



Perfect let them walk so we can hire people who want to work.


----------



## Skull Pilot

TominNH said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why should teachers be exempt from contributing to their own retirement?
> 
> Why should they be exempt from paying for a portion of their health insurance?
> 
> Most people do both and don't whine about it.
> 
> 
> 
> skull pilot:
> 
> 1)  Yhey do!
> 2) They do this also!
> 3) That isnt what they're "whining " about! It is the attempt to strip away all collective bargaining rights----   in other words----  it's union busting!
> 
> Tenure simply means that if the administration is going to dismiss a teacher, they must document good cause
Click to expand...


The only things off the table for collective bargaining are the minuscule contributions to health insurance and retirement.  Everything else is still on the table.


----------



## Jackson

I still consider myself a teacher although I am disabled.  I was a union rep.    I was also a Consultant hiring teachers and mentoring them and recommending the for firing or a second year contract for the Union.  So I saw both sides.

I am against the Unions.

Too much politics there.  The do keep poor teachers in the job when there is tenure.  There is favoritism.  There are feuds with great teachers.  Teachers need a Professional Organization the enhances the education of teachers with strategies.

What is happening in  Wisconsin is hardly professional.  Their job is in the classroom.  Their paramount concern.

At the same time, taxpayers have to understand that teachers have an obligtion that other public employees don't have.  In my state, teachers are obligated to keep their certification current by returning for college work at their own expense every few years which is an expense that others do not have.  This burden alone should not make them the first target of legislatures.  I only ask that fairness be observed when looking at all professions and what is entailed with each.


----------



## bodecea

Jackson said:


> I still consider myself a teacher although I am disabled.  I was a union rep.    I was also a Consultant hiring teachers and mentoring them and recommending the for firing or a second year contract for the Union.  So I saw both sides.
> 
> I am against the Unions.
> 
> Too much politics there.  The do keep poor teachers in the job when there is tenure.  There is favoritism.  There are feuds with great teachers.  Teachers need a Professional Organization the enhances the education of teachers with strategies.
> 
> What is happening in  Wisconsin is hardly professional.  Their job is in the classroom.  Their paramount concern.
> 
> At the same time, taxpayers have to understand that teachers have an obligtion that other public employees don't have.  In my state, teachers are obligated to keep their certification current by returning for college work at their own expense every few years which is an expense that others do not have.  This burden alone should not make them the first target of legislatures.  I only ask that fairness be observed when looking at all professions and what is entailed with each.



As a former union rep are you saying that poor teachers cannot be fired?     And what kind of feuds with great teachers did you experience?   I'd like more details.


----------



## Stephanie

shintao said:


> As I stated early on, other Union members will also contribute to the cause and bring Wisconsin to its knees. I am predicting a strong Union response across the board, either a National strike, or a state wide strike. Union members will not cross a Union picket line, so if they Union plumber in a state building, sorry, you are out of luck.
> 
> *A union mechanic at Kraft Foods, Grabski fears that his livelihood will soon be in peril if the new governor prevails.
> 
> "If the state workers go, we are all next," said Grabski, who was tired, tearful and in need of a shave. "This is a defining moment, a defining issue for all of us. They are at war with the middle class."
> 
> Madison protests grow, and Senate Democrats dash | StarTribune.com*



good deal, bring it on. BRING WISCONSION TO IT'S KNEES.
show the AMERCIAN people who DON'T BELONG TO A UNION just how far the Unions will go to get what they want, by DISRUPTING their lives and livelihoods..

then maybe they will WAKE up to see these Unions for what they are and get behind in the movement to bust THEM UP..


----------



## LibocalypseNow

This is all political. These Unions are well funded by the Democratic Party. The Teacher Unions have always put themselves and the Democratic Party before the kids. This is just more greed & political activism coming from them. This Wisconsin situation should not be surprising to anyone. As usual,only the kids will suffer. And while the Teacher Unions continue to play their games,the World continues to pass us up in Education. How sad.


----------



## bodecea

LibocalypseNow said:


> This is all political. These Unions are well funded by the Democratic Party. The Teacher Unions have always put themselves and the Democratic Party before the kids. This is just more greed & political activism coming from them. This Wisconsin situation should not be surprising to anyone. As usual,only the kids will suffer. And while the Teacher Unions continue to play their games,the World continues to pass us up in Education. How sad.



I'm still waiting for you to share your experience in the classroom and how it has assured you that teachers do not need unions to protect them.

And the reason we get passed up by the world is two fold....#1.  The world values education and educators....we do not.   #2.  The world only provides test results on their best and brightest....we test and present results on EVERYONE.


----------



## LibocalypseNow

Party before Country. This is definitely true of today's Democratic Party. This guy in Wisconsin is doing his best to get Wisconsin back on track yet the Democrats are going to fight him every step of the way. It's just like the Republicans in our Congress. They're trying to get things back under control yet the Democrats are fighting them every step of the way as well. It's just Party before Country for them. Hopefully most Americans see this and give them the big boot in 2012.


----------



## Foxfyre

It really comes down to one simple fact.

Not the family, not the local city or country government, not the state government, not the federal government is big enough, rich enough, or smart enough to give us everything we want and need.  ALL must do the best they can with the circumstances and resources that exist.

And as long as people want others to take the hits and are unwilling to give up ANYTHING they currently have just because it is no longer affordable, we will have the kind of turmoil we are currently seeing at all levels of government.   And they hold those elected and appointed to office hostage by demonizing all who point to the realities.  There is too little of  "I'll do it myself" and far too much "I want YOU to do it for me."

We have a President who got elected in part by being in bed with the unions.  We have high level officials at all levels of government beholden to those same unions.  This problem won't be fixed without ALL--unions, non union groups, elected officials, bureaucrats, and everybody else being willing to understand and accept what we can no longer afford and accept the unpleasantness that goes along with that.

And if that requires some union busting, then so be it.


----------



## N4mddissent

Some states without collective bargaining for state employees and their education ranking.

Texas- 8/51
Virginia- 12/51
Georgia- 27/51
North Carolina- 41/51
South Carolina- 51/51

The top 4 states, Vermont, Mass., Florida, and NH all have mandatory collective bargaining.

I'm not arguing that having a strong teacher union with collective bargaining will make schools better.  But I think the arguments that they "harm" our education system is just as bogus.  The information from the 5 states that forbid collective bargaining seems to indicate that removing it is doesn't have much effect.


----------



## jgarden

LibocalypseNow said:


> Kudos to new Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker!
> 
> More brave Politicians need to start standing up to the corrupt Teacher Unions. The Teacher Unions have brought our Public School System to its knees. It has become all about them. It's all about getting that cash for them. They don't care about the kids anymore. They also only want to force their politics and social experimenting on the kids at this point. Their number one goal these last few decades has been to brainwash the children and create good little future adult Democrats. They stopped teaching the kids the basics of Education a long time ago.
> 
> Teacher Unions now only do far more harm than they do good. It's time for them to go away. The Public School System will be so much better off when they're gone. The Kids could actually start learning again. American kids continue to fall further & further behind other far less developed and less wealthy nations. I do blame the Teacher Unions for this. They have become too obsessed with the cash and creating good little future adult Democrats. They have lost their way. Get rid of the Teacher Unions and our Public School System might just be salvaged.


*"It's all about getting that cash for them." - At first I thought "LibocalypseNow" was describing the bank executives on Wall Street -the same group that the Republicans insisted receive a "tax cut!"

The Teacher's Unions only wish that their membership had that kind of political "clout" on federal and state government - they'll just have to be content with their billions of dollars of "bonuses!"*


----------



## LibocalypseNow

Party before Country. It will be very difficult to start fixing our nation's big problems as long as the Democrats hold onto that philosophy. That's all you're seeing in Wisconsin. The new Governor is trying to get things back in order there. The Democrats will not let that happen though. They will disagree with the guy just to disagree. They see votes in that. Hopefully this will backfire on them in 2012. We have real problems that need to be solved. Party before Country is no way to solve these problems.


----------



## Foxfyre

N4mddissent said:


> Some states without collective bargaining for state employees and their education ranking.
> 
> Texas- 8/51
> Virginia- 12/51
> Georgia- 27/51
> North Carolina- 41/51
> South Carolina- 51/51
> 
> The top 4 states, Vermont, Mass., Florida, and NH all have mandatory collective bargaining.
> 
> I'm not arguing that having a strong teacher union with collective bargaining will make schools better.  But I think the arguments that they "harm" our education system is just as bogus.  The information from the 5 states that forbid collective bargaining seems to indicate that removing it is doesn't have much effect.



Who put out these rankings please?  And rankings re what?


----------



## rhodescholar

bodecea said:


> Silence those that you disagree with?   Are you a product of our American School System?  Shall we blame your teachers?



You hypocritical piece of shit, you are complaining about silencing others while defending elected officials sneaking out of the state to avoid a vote?


----------



## rhodescholar

Dr.Traveler said:


> Very difficult is not the same as "keep their job forever."
> 
> Tenure only guarantees you due process before you hit the streets.  And tenure can be voided in a few circumstances that aren't that far fetched.  I've known quite a few folks that though tenure was the "golden ticket" only to end up unemployed.
> 
> I will grant, to get fired while tenured requires:
> 1.  Circumstances far outside your control
> 2.  Really really screwing up.
> 3.  Poor perforrmance over an extended period.
> 
> What you'd find is that many jobs in the private sector that require specialized skill sets have pretty close to that same level of security.  It just isn't formalized in writing.  For folks that work at a business of any reasonable size, ask yourself this:  What would it take for your IT guy to get fired?



My IT guy was fired last week, for screwing up a powerpoint presentation.

Keeping Bad Teachers in Front of Students | Teachers Union Facts

"Consider New York City. The New York Daily News reports that over the past three years [2007-2010], just 88 out of some 80,000 city schoolteachers have lost their jobs for poor performance."

Doesn't sound like it is anything BUT lifetime employment...


----------



## rhodescholar

bodecea said:


> I'm still waiting for you to share your experience in the classroom and how it has assured you that teachers do not need unions to protect them.



Still waiting for evidence they do.



> And the reason we get passed up by the world is two fold....#1.  The world values education and educators....we do not.   #2.  The world only provides test results on their best and brightest....we test and present results on EVERYONE.



The US spends some 3-10X as much as other developed nations on education, yet lags almost all of them in performance of students.

Could it be that the US DOES value education, just that all of that money is flowing into teacher salaries, benefits, unions, etc.?   Nah.....


----------



## Foxfyre

rhodescholar said:


> Dr.Traveler said:
> 
> 
> 
> Very difficult is not the same as "keep their job forever."
> 
> Tenure only guarantees you due process before you hit the streets.  And tenure can be voided in a few circumstances that aren't that far fetched.  I've known quite a few folks that though tenure was the "golden ticket" only to end up unemployed.
> 
> I will grant, to get fired while tenured requires:
> 1.  Circumstances far outside your control
> 2.  Really really screwing up.
> 3.  Poor perforrmance over an extended period.
> 
> What you'd find is that many jobs in the private sector that require specialized skill sets have pretty close to that same level of security.  It just isn't formalized in writing.  For folks that work at a business of any reasonable size, ask yourself this:  What would it take for your IT guy to get fired?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My IT guy was fired last week, for screwing up a powerpoint presentation.
> 
> Keeping Bad Teachers in Front of Students | Teachers Union Facts
> 
> "Consider New York City. The New York Daily News reports that &#8220;over the past three years [2007-2010], just 88 out of some 80,000 city schoolteachers have lost their jobs for poor performance.&#8221;"
> 
> Doesn't sound like it is anything BUT lifetime employment...
Click to expand...


And I'm guessing that many if not most of those 88 were fired due to highly publicized sexual or other inappropriate misconduct with students and not due to incompetence.


----------



## LibocalypseNow

I'm a firm believer that our Public Schools would be much better off without Teacher Unions being involved. The politics & greed would go away over night if they were removed. The Kids would finally get educated again. If this Teacher Union has violated it's contract with the Wisconsin Government,it may be time to terminate the contract and let these Teachers go.


----------



## rhodescholar

Jackson said:


> At the same time, taxpayers have to understand that teachers have an obligtion that other public employees don't have.  In my state, teachers are obligated to keep their certification current by returning for college work at their own expense every few years which is an expense that others do not have.  This burden alone should not make them the first target of legislatures.  I only ask that fairness be observed when looking at all professions and what is entailed with each.



There are many private sector jobs that have this as well. CPA, insurance agent, etc.


----------



## rhodescholar

LibocalypseNow said:


> This is all political. These Unions are well funded by the Democratic Party. The Teacher Unions have always put themselves and the Democratic Party before the kids.



See:

In Wisconsin Fight, Officials Search Capitol for Democrats - WSJ.com

"Organizing for America, which is run in conjunction with the Democratic National Committee, was helping mobilize protesters on Thursday through its blog and Twitter updates that included a "call to action" to phone state senators."

=============================

It is clear that there are interests in this country, particularly public employee unions, that are not interested in anything but satisfying their own greed.


----------



## GHook93

LibocalypseNow said:


> Kudos to new Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker!
> 
> More brave Politicians need to start standing up to the corrupt Teacher Unions. The Teacher Unions have brought our Public School System to its knees. It has become all about them. It's all about getting that cash for them. They don't care about the kids anymore. They also only want to force their politics and social experimenting on the kids at this point. Their number one goal these last few decades has been to brainwash the children and create good little future adult Democrats. They stopped teaching the kids the basics of Education a long time ago.
> 
> Teacher Unions now only do far more harm than they do good. It's time for them to go away. The Public School System will be so much better off when they're gone. The Kids could actually start learning again. American kids continue to fall further & further behind other far less developed and less wealthy nations. I do blame the Teacher Unions for this. They have become too obsessed with the cash and creating good little future adult Democrats. They have lost their way. Get rid of the Teacher Unions and our Public School System might just be salvaged.



So true. Here is the Teacher's Unions Main Concerns:
(1) Teacher Pensions - The Highway Robbery Pension plans that the private sector doesn't have. These pension plans suck up so much money that could go directly to the schools. There are some many better ways to spend 40-50% of the education budget then on retired teachers pension plan! Books for one!

(2) Tenure - One of the worst things that ever was advised. If you blow as a teacher, you should be fired. If you cause problems that harms the education of the children then you should be fired. While I think there should be safety nets for whistle blowers. I can't comprehend one benefit of tenure. Tenure, or no fear of losing your job, makes many teachers lazy, they stop trying to learn themselves. The worst Professors I had in college was the tenure ones! This is a communist style measure!

(3) Salary, Promotions and Raises - These are all based on senority, length of services and not on merit. Length in job should be a consideration, but NOT a guiding light! You want a salary increase, then you better merit it! Promotions should be based on merit. Raises should be based on merit!


----------



## bodecea

GHook93 said:


> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kudos to new Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker!
> 
> More brave Politicians need to start standing up to the corrupt Teacher Unions. The Teacher Unions have brought our Public School System to its knees. It has become all about them. It's all about getting that cash for them. They don't care about the kids anymore. They also only want to force their politics and social experimenting on the kids at this point. Their number one goal these last few decades has been to brainwash the children and create good little future adult Democrats. They stopped teaching the kids the basics of Education a long time ago.
> 
> Teacher Unions now only do far more harm than they do good. It's time for them to go away. The Public School System will be so much better off when they're gone. The Kids could actually start learning again. American kids continue to fall further & further behind other far less developed and less wealthy nations. I do blame the Teacher Unions for this. They have become too obsessed with the cash and creating good little future adult Democrats. They have lost their way. Get rid of the Teacher Unions and our Public School System might just be salvaged.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So true. Here is the Teacher's Unions Main Concerns:
> (1) Teacher Pensions - The Highway Robbery Pension plans that the private sector doesn't have. These pension plans suck up so much money that could go directly to the schools. There are some many better ways to spend 40-50% of the education budget then on retired teachers pension plan! Books for one!
> 
> (2) Tenure - One of the worst things that ever was advised. If you blow as a teacher, you should be fired. If you cause problems that harms the education of the children then you should be fired. While I think there should be safety nets for whistle blowers. I can't comprehend one benefit of tenure. Tenure, or no fear of losing your job, makes many teachers lazy, they stop trying to learn themselves. The worst Professors I had in college was the tenure ones! This is a communist style measure!
> 
> (3) Salary, Promotions and Raises - These are all based on senority, length of services and not on merit. Length in job should be a consideration, but NOT a guiding light!* You want a salary increase, then you better merit it! Promotions should be based on merit. Raises should be based on merit!*
Click to expand...


How do you measure that?


----------



## Foxfyre

rhodescholar said:


> Jackson said:
> 
> 
> 
> At the same time, taxpayers have to understand that teachers have an obligtion that other public employees don't have.  In my state, teachers are obligated to keep their certification current by returning for college work at their own expense every few years which is an expense that others do not have.  This burden alone should not make them the first target of legislatures.  I only ask that fairness be observed when looking at all professions and what is entailed with each.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are many private sector jobs that have this as well. CPA, insurance agent, etc.
Click to expand...


Yes.  And teacher certification as well as all others who have to be recertified ever so often have existed long before the teacher's unions.

A good school will take into account the total compensation package when recruiting good teachers.  Poor schools will take anybody they can get.  The most nationalized and federally funded school system in the country is D.C.  It expends more per student, pays its teachers better, and gets more federal funding than any other school system.  And it ranks dead last in virtually ALL performance standards.  If nothing else will make us back up and look at what we are doing, what is happening, that should.

Good schools existed long before labor unions took over education.  Then teachers were part of the community and worked within a system in which administration, teachers, and parents worked together as a team to educate kids.  Good teachers were admired, respected, and emulated and were paid as well as their local system would allow.  Teachers went into teaching because they loved to teach.  They knew it wasn't a profession one got rich in.  But they didn't care.  They did it because they wanted to do it.

Teachers should absolutely be paid a living wage consistent with the area they teach in, and that wage should take into account mandatory expenses the teacher will have.

One size fits all education hasn't worked anywhere it has been tried.


----------



## LibocalypseNow

Who knows,this could be a fantastic once and a lifetime opportunity for this Wisconsin Governor to fire these greedy political activists. The Public Schools certainly wouldn't miss them. If they have violated their contract with the Wisconsin Government,they could be subject to dismissal. Might be time for Scott Walker to seize on this opportunity.


----------



## GHook93

bodecea said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kudos to new Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker!
> 
> More brave Politicians need to start standing up to the corrupt Teacher Unions. The Teacher Unions have brought our Public School System to its knees. It has become all about them. It's all about getting that cash for them. They don't care about the kids anymore. They also only want to force their politics and social experimenting on the kids at this point. Their number one goal these last few decades has been to brainwash the children and create good little future adult Democrats. They stopped teaching the kids the basics of Education a long time ago.
> 
> Teacher Unions now only do far more harm than they do good. It's time for them to go away. The Public School System will be so much better off when they're gone. The Kids could actually start learning again. American kids continue to fall further & further behind other far less developed and less wealthy nations. I do blame the Teacher Unions for this. They have become too obsessed with the cash and creating good little future adult Democrats. They have lost their way. Get rid of the Teacher Unions and our Public School System might just be salvaged.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So true. Here is the Teacher's Unions Main Concerns:
> (1) Teacher Pensions - The Highway Robbery Pension plans that the private sector doesn't have. These pension plans suck up so much money that could go directly to the schools. There are some many better ways to spend 40-50% of the education budget then on retired teachers pension plan! Books for one!
> 
> (2) Tenure - One of the worst things that ever was advised. If you blow as a teacher, you should be fired. If you cause problems that harms the education of the children then you should be fired. While I think there should be safety nets for whistle blowers. I can't comprehend one benefit of tenure. Tenure, or no fear of losing your job, makes many teachers lazy, they stop trying to learn themselves. The worst Professors I had in college was the tenure ones! This is a communist style measure!
> 
> (3) Salary, Promotions and Raises - These are all based on senority, length of services and not on merit. Length in job should be a consideration, but NOT a guiding light!* You want a salary increase, then you better merit it! Promotions should be based on merit. Raises should be based on merit!*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How do you measure that?
Click to expand...


How does the private sector measure it? Length in service is a consideration, but it far from the only consideration. Job performance for starters!


----------



## bodecea

Foxfyre said:


> rhodescholar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jackson said:
> 
> 
> 
> At the same time, taxpayers have to understand that teachers have an obligtion that other public employees don't have.  In my state, teachers are obligated to keep their certification current by returning for college work at their own expense every few years which is an expense that others do not have.  This burden alone should not make them the first target of legislatures.  I only ask that fairness be observed when looking at all professions and what is entailed with each.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are many private sector jobs that have this as well. CPA, insurance agent, etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes.  And teacher certification as well as all others who have to be recertified ever so often have existed long before the teacher's unions.
> 
> A good school will take into account the total compensation package when recruiting good teachers.  Poor schools will take anybody they can get.  The most nationalized and federally funded school system in the country is D.C.  It expends more per student, pays its teachers better, and gets more federal funding than any other school system.  And it ranks dead last in virtually ALL performance standards.  If nothing else will make us back up and look at what we are doing, what is happening, that should.
Click to expand...


Do you think it is the teachers or the clientele?   The town I live in has 5 middle schools...same curriculum, same pool of teachers, same funding and yet some do very well and one has been a low performing school  for 5+ years.   Why do you think that is?   I'll let you make some guesses.



> Good schools existed long before labor unions took over education.  Then teachers were part of the community and worked within a system in which administration, teachers, and parents worked together as a team to educate kids.



That is very true....and many, many students stopped at 6th-8th grade and left to good jobs or farms.   That is no longer a viable choice.


> Good teachers were admired, respected, and emulated and were paid as well as their local system would allow.


Same as now.



> Teachers went into teaching because they loved to teach.  They knew it wasn't a profession one got rich in.  But they didn't care.  They did it because they wanted to do it.



Same as now....unfortunately, many burn out within 3-5 years...up to 50% because they learn that others don't consider teaching a respected profession and their idealism can only carry them so far in a society that treats them with contempt.



> Teachers should absolutely be paid a living wage consistent with the area they teach in, and that wage should take into account mandatory expenses the teacher will have.
> 
> One size fits all education hasn't worked anywhere it has been tried.



I do not think education is one size fits all except for the STANDARDIZED testing that all must take as per federal law (No Child Left Behind).


----------



## bodecea

GHook93 said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So true. Here is the Teacher's Unions Main Concerns:
> (1) Teacher Pensions - The Highway Robbery Pension plans that the private sector doesn't have. These pension plans suck up so much money that could go directly to the schools. There are some many better ways to spend 40-50% of the education budget then on retired teachers pension plan! Books for one!
> 
> (2) Tenure - One of the worst things that ever was advised. If you blow as a teacher, you should be fired. If you cause problems that harms the education of the children then you should be fired. While I think there should be safety nets for whistle blowers. I can't comprehend one benefit of tenure. Tenure, or no fear of losing your job, makes many teachers lazy, they stop trying to learn themselves. The worst Professors I had in college was the tenure ones! This is a communist style measure!
> 
> (3) Salary, Promotions and Raises - These are all based on senority, length of services and not on merit. Length in job should be a consideration, but NOT a guiding light!* You want a salary increase, then you better merit it! Promotions should be based on merit. Raises should be based on merit!*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do you measure that?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How does the private sector measure it? Length in service is a consideration, but it far from the only consideration. Job performance for starters!
Click to expand...

Students are NOT widgets to be manufactured.....how do you measure merit in the classroom....I'm all ears.


----------



## bodecea

LibocalypseNow said:


> Who knows,this could be a fantastic once and a lifetime opportunity for this Wisconsin Governor to fire these greedy political activists. *The Public Schools certainly wouldn't miss them.* If they have violated their contract with the Wisconsin Government,they could be subject to dismissal. Might be time for Scott Walker to seize on this opportunity.



Yeah...that's why schools closed down....because they don't miss them.


I would like to see the governor do the very thing you suggest.


----------



## LibocalypseNow

The Democrats are behaving like spoiled brats. This whole thing may end up backfiring on them big time. 2012 could be a great year for Republicans.


----------



## Foxfyre

bodecea said:


> Students are NOT widgets to be manufactured.....how do you measure merit in the classroom....I'm all ears.



I measure it by whether the students are being educated.  I measure it by proficiency exams, SAT scores, meeting college admission standards, truancy, graduation rates, and employability.   I measure it by whether kids are interested, involved, and excited with constructive activities, extra credit projects, and community.  I measure it by whether kids aren't running with gangs, getting arrested or in other trouble.  I measure it by whether kids are employable citizens by the time they graduae.


----------



## bodecea

LibocalypseNow said:


> I'm a firm believer that our Public Schools would be much better off without Teacher Unions being involved. *The politics & greed would go away over night if they were removed. The Kids would finally get educated again*. If this Teacher Union has violated it's contract with the Wisconsin Government,it may be time to terminate the contract and let these Teachers go.



So, show us this being the case in the states without Teachers' Unions.


----------



## bodecea

I swear....some Rightwingers want us to have an education system like Mexico's.


----------



## Foxfyre

bodecea said:


> I swear....some Rightwingers want us to have an education system like Mexico's.



Really.  What rightwingers would that be?

Mexican schools are nationalized with the federal government providing the curriculum, standards, policy, and funding.  So how's that working out for them?

What rightwingers can you think of that think such a system is the best way for the USA to go?

How many leftwingers would like to see the schools nationalized?


----------



## Annie

Actually there is a lot to be said for Mexico's school system, like Europe's. Do we want to go there? My preference is not, but I can see the argument for it. Track throughout the grades, that's what they do. 

Seriously, I like our presumption that 'all kids can learn', but would certainly like some commonsense brought back into the premise. NCLB with the knocks on giving failing grades to schools, when the kids failing are from non-English speaking homes, poverty, or seriously handicapped. 

The first two can be educated, that I believe. I'm also convinced that many special ed kids can thrive academically, but not when we're speaking of genetic or illness that is fatal. Learning differences? Sure. Kids with just a brain stem? No. 

Should all secondary schooling be college prep? No, IMO. Some children by inclination or limitations want alternatives, that's where the European models come into play. But I wouldn't go there until at least 8th grade.


----------



## GHook93

bodecea said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> How do you measure that?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How does the private sector measure it? Length in service is a consideration, but it far from the only consideration. Job performance for starters!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Students are NOT widgets to be manufactured.....how do you measure merit in the classroom....I'm all ears.
Click to expand...


(1) Student Performance (could be grounds to inflate grades no, but there can always be measures in place, such a general test on the subject)
(2) Principal Observations (How do most employers promote someone, on there own observations)
(3) Teacher Testing (Why should teachers take tests, get certificates etc.)
(4) Length in Service (yep this should be a consideration)

There has to be many ways to do this other than just length in service!


----------



## LibocalypseNow

Most Teachers just want to blame everyone else and never take any responsibility for our failing Public Schools. I have yet to see a Teacher fess up and take some responsibility. They're always blaming the kids & parents. They still refuse to accept any standards testing evaluations for Teacher job performance. Why is that? Why are they so scared of being evaluated? Teachers would actually receive rewards for excelling while also ensuring only the best of the best are teaching our children. The Teacher Unions still refuse to agree to these evaluations. If you want the big bucks,than agree to be evaluated. It really is that simple. Their Blame-Game is just getting to be so tiresome. It's not always the kids & parent's fault. Teachers need to start accepting this.


----------



## Foxfyre

I think back on the story of Jaime Escalante teaching low income, mostly minority barrio kids in West Los Angeles.  Because he was a teacher sufficiently gifted to inspire the kids to try, that one school started teaching advanced math that, over a number of consecutive years, qualified more kids for college advanced placement than anybody thought possible.

I read such educators as Thomas Sowell who grew up as a poor black kid under segregation in inner city New York schools but reports getting an education that equipped him to compete with anybody.

I get tired of hearing that poor kids or disadvantaged kids or minority kids cannot be expected to learn and achieve what other kids learn and achieve.  And I think until we change our attitudes about that, we are doing those kids a terrible disservice.


----------



## jgarden

rhodescholar said:


> The US spends some 3-10X as much as other developed nations on education, yet lags almost all of them in performance of students.
> 
> Could it be that the US DOES value education, just that all of that money is flowing into teacher salaries, benefits, unions, etc.?   Nah.....


*Whatever happened to the "corporate" argument that you have to be willing to provide big salaries and even bigger bonuses to recruit and retain the "brightest and the best?"

Then there's the public school curriculums that have been "politicized" to the bursting point - requiring teachers to accommodate/pacify such a multitude of interest groups that its a wonder they have any time left to teach those topics that actually appear on standardized tests.*


----------



## LibocalypseNow

I hate to be this simplistic and callous but...We simply have way too many Dummy Teachers teaching kids to be Dummies. Standards testing evaluations for Teachers would eliminate this terrible problem in our Public Schools. It doesn't look like the Teacher Unions will ever agree to these evaluation tests though. So the kids will just go on suffering. It's very sad.


----------



## bodecea

LibocalypseNow said:


> I hate to be this simplistic and callous but...We simply have way too many Dummy Teachers teaching kids to be Dummies. Standards testing evaluations for Teachers would eliminate this terrible problem in our Public Schools. It doesn't look like the Teacher Unions will ever agree to these evaluation tests though. So the kids will just go on suffering. It's very sad.



So, you think that teachers' evaluations and pay should be based on standardized tests?

Or that teachers should take Standards tests?   (They do)


----------



## LibocalypseNow

The only purposes i see Teacher Unions serving these days are greed,getting Democrats elected,protecting awful Teachers,blaming kids & parents for their own failings,playing the victim,and incessant Whining about pretty much everything. They serve no positive purpose in our Public Schools. In fact they're only a huge detriment at this point. Time for them to go.


----------



## bodecea

Foxfyre said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> Students are NOT widgets to be manufactured.....how do you measure merit in the classroom....I'm all ears.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I measure it by whether the students are being educated.  I measure it by proficiency exams, SAT scores, meeting college admission standards, truancy, graduation rates, and employability.   I measure it by whether kids are interested, involved, and excited with constructive activities, extra credit projects, and community.  I measure it by whether kids aren't running with gangs, getting arrested or in other trouble.  I measure it by whether kids are employable citizens by the time they graduae.
Click to expand...


So, you hold teachers responsible if they have special ed students who do not do well...who will want to teach those classes?

So you hold teachers responsible for students ditching school.

So you hold teachers responsible for students getting accepted to colleges of their choice.  What about those students who are not college material...who will want to teach them?

So you will hold teachers responsible as to whether kids get in gangs or arrested.


I don't think many will want to be teachers under your regime.


----------



## bodecea

GHook93 said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> How does the private sector measure it? Length in service is a consideration, but it far from the only consideration. Job performance for starters!
> 
> 
> 
> Students are NOT widgets to be manufactured.....how do you measure merit in the classroom....I'm all ears.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> (1) Student Performance (could be grounds to inflate grades no, but there can always be measures in place, such a general test on the subject)
> (2) Principal Observations (How do most employers promote someone, on there own observations)
> (3) Teacher Testing (Why should teachers take tests, get certificates etc.)
> (4) Length in Service (yep this should be a consideration)
> 
> There has to be many ways to do this other than just length in service!
Click to expand...


2, 3, and 4 are already done.....as for #1....when will you get teachers willing to teach Special ed, the low IQ, the non-college bound, that students not supported at home, the neglected, the low English kids?


----------



## Foxfyre

bodecea said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> Students are NOT widgets to be manufactured.....how do you measure merit in the classroom....I'm all ears.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I measure it by whether the students are being educated.  I measure it by proficiency exams, SAT scores, meeting college admission standards, truancy, graduation rates, and employability.   I measure it by whether kids are interested, involved, and excited with constructive activities, extra credit projects, and community.  I measure it by whether kids aren't running with gangs, getting arrested or in other trouble.  I measure it by whether kids are employable citizens by the time they graduae.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So, you hold teachers responsible if they have special ed students who do not do well...who will want to teach those classes?
> 
> So you hold teachers responsible for students ditching school.
> 
> So you hold teachers responsible for students getting accepted to colleges of their choice.  What about those students who are not college material...who will want to teach them?
> 
> So you will hold teachers responsible as to whether kids get in gangs or arrested.
> 
> 
> I don't think many will want to be teachers under your regime.
Click to expand...


I had a very few teachers that I dreaded going to their classes.  I had teachers that I didn't want to miss their class for ANY reason.  Which do you think was the better teacher?

I have six hours of college American History in which I attended the first class just to be sure I was on the roll and I attended the last class to take the final exam.  I otherwise worked for pay during that hour as I was financing my college education by myself.  The professor never varied from the text, gave half the grade on class participation, and half the grade on the final exam. I aced the finals and needless to say I pulled a C for each three-hour term.

In my opinion that teacher should be fired.  But he was a tenured professor so. . . .

And yes.  Kids who are engaged in learning, who are given inspiration and hope and goals and belief in themselves and are rewarded for real achievement are far more likely to see value in themselves and are far less likely to get into trouble with the law or cut class or drop out of school.  And no, all students are not college material but all students of normal intelligence should be graduating highschool with sufficient education to be employable.

Students who are hindering the advancement of the other students for ANY reason should be removed from the class and educated some other way.  And that way should not take away from the main body of students who want an education.

This is the way education mostly worked before education became nationalized and teacher's unions started dictating how schools would operate.  And America enjoyed some of the best schools in the world.  Now we have some of the worst among industrialized nations.


----------



## herceliaL

Education must be the priority.


----------



## Samson

JFK_USA said:


> N4mddissent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is convenient to "blame the teachers."
> 
> However, every other "professional" is measured by their accomplishments...why should teachers be any different? They are, after all PUBLIC School teachers. They are supposed to teach the PUBLIC, not just kids that come from perfect households, and who have high values of self motivation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because most other professions rely more upon the actions of the professional than upon the actions of others...especially minors to which you have limited access and control.  If doctors were not judged by how much they helped patients heal, but how healthy they were.  Imagine if we judged doctors as shit because too many of their patients are getting fat and it's making them sick. Or perhaps their patient is smoking and getting cancer.  That is what we're doing with teachers.  They can't control whether little johnny goes home and studies or whether he simply picks up his xbox and plays all night.  They can't control that little suzie is too busy texting her friends all night and her parents can't be bothered to attend a teacher conference.  But yet they are judged "poor teachers" when little johnny and suzy fail their tests.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I couldn't have said it better myself. Please keep posting. I mean Annie, Samson and other republicans are like this:
> 
> 
> *Durr....Unions are problem. Me think Union busting solve all problem. Ugh.*
> 
> Yet the problem is much more complex and the unions are at best 1% of the educational problems in this country.
Click to expand...


You seem to have confused the issue, which I imagine is something of a habit.

Unless you've assumed that holding teachers accountable cannot be done in a union?

Teachers are not judged to be "poor teachers" just because "little johnny and suzy fail their test." The test you are referring is a STANDARDIZED TEST, designed to find out if the AVERAGE student has learned a MINIMUM skill or knowledge.

IMHO the test is poorly administered. It should be given every month rather than once a year, and should be timed at 45 minutes. The status quo tests more the student's ability to take a test and endure a grueling test schedule, and recall in April or May what they were taught in September (probably impossible for 50% USMB members).

The teacher is judged on a wide variety of factors ONE of which is whether or not MOST of their students can pass this test: If a MD's patients were dropping dead then there would be grounds for a Medical Review Board to investigate their license.


----------



## Samson

bodecea said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> Students are NOT widgets to be manufactured.....how do you measure merit in the classroom....I'm all ears.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I measure it by whether the students are being educated.  I measure it by proficiency exams, SAT scores, meeting college admission standards, truancy, graduation rates, and employability.   I measure it by whether kids are interested, involved, and excited with constructive activities, extra credit projects, and community.  I measure it by whether kids aren't running with gangs, getting arrested or in other trouble.  I measure it by whether kids are employable citizens by the time they graduae.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So, you hold teachers responsible if they have special ed students who do not do well...who will want to teach those classes?
> 
> So you hold teachers responsible for students ditching school.
> 
> So you hold teachers responsible for students getting accepted to colleges of their choice.  What about those students who are not college material...who will want to teach them?
> 
> So you will hold teachers responsible as to whether kids get in gangs or arrested.
> 
> 
> I don't think many will want to be teachers under your regime.
Click to expand...


I believe you've purposefully misread Fyre's remarks: Typical HYSTERICAL TEACHER SYNDROME (HTS).

But if you believe there is another job out there where supervisors are not held accountable when their employees consistantly quit, are late for work, cannot be promoted, or are involved in illegal activity, then you are fantasizing (which, I cannot really blame you for: most teachers are quite secluded from reality, working in their figurative ivory towers).


----------



## LibocalypseNow

Scott Walker is behaving like an Adult while the Teacher Unions & Democrats are behaving like spoiled little Brats. I have to give much Kudos to Walker. The man is trying to tackle Wisconsin's terrible problems while the Unions & Democrats are trying to make it all about them. The same can be said of our Congress as well. The Republicans are trying to fix our nation's terrible problems while the Democrats just go on sniping at them and opposing them every step of the way. It is very clear the Democrats are not willing to address our Nation's very serious problems. It really is Party before Country for them. Hopefully the People see this though and hand them a crushing & humiliating defeat in 2012. They certainly deserve it. Lets hope this happens. Meanwhile,hang in there Mr. Walker.


----------



## Foxfyre

It is possible the unions will take down Walker who is trying real reform rather than just giving it lip service.  The unions, aided and abetted by a leftwing press, took down Michelle Rhee when she was brave enough to try to reform the abysmal DC schools, but protecting tenure and obscenely great benefits seemed far more important than actually educating the kids.   She even had the audacity to fire a couple of hundred teachers who didn't have proper certification.  But they had union protection.

Tallahassee now has Michelle and is thrilled to get her.

Here is another example of what visionary education and attitude can do for 'hopeless' kids:



> Well, they've done it again. Urban Prep Academy of Chicago, an all-male charter school with kids from the "worst" parts of Chicago, is sending 100% of its graduating seniors off to college. The school, founded in 2006, has stated that its continuous objective is to see to it that all of its students go to college. They are succeeding with flying colors.
> The school started with kids whose futures had been left for dead by their public schools: Only four percent of the school's incoming freshmen were reading at grade level when they arrived on campus. But by sending all of their graduating seniors to college, they've not only gotten these kids up to speed, they've allowed them to zip past every other public school in the entire United States.
> Urban Prep Academy Gets 100% Black Male College Attendance... Again - Black History Month



If the teachers' unions gave a tinkers dam about the kids, wouldn't you think they would be helping reformers emulate the success stories instead of doing their damndest to sink anybody who tries?


----------



## Wicked Jester

Foxfyre said:


> It is possible the unions will take down Walker who is trying real reform rather than just giving it lip service.  The unions, aided and abetted by a leftwing press, took down Michelle Rhee when she was brave enough to try to reform the abysmal DC schools, but protecting tenure and obscenely great benefits seemed far more important than actually educating the kids.   She even had the audacity to fire a couple of hundred teachers who didn't have proper certification.  But they had union protection.
> 
> Tallahassee now has Michelle and is thrilled to get her.
> 
> Here is another example of what visionary education and attitude can do for 'hopeless' kids:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, they've done it again. Urban Prep Academy of Chicago, an all-male charter school with kids from the "worst" parts of Chicago, is sending 100% of its graduating seniors off to college. The school, founded in 2006, has stated that its continuous objective is to see to it that all of its students go to college. They are succeeding with flying colors.
> The school started with kids whose futures had been left for dead by their public schools: Only four percent of the school's incoming freshmen were reading at grade level when they arrived on campus. But by sending all of their graduating seniors to college, they've not only gotten these kids up to speed, they've allowed them to zip past every other public Urban Prep Academy Gets 100% Black Male College Attendance... Again - Black History Month in the entire United States.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the teachers' unions gave a tinkers dam about the kids, wouldn't you think they would be helping reformers emulate the success stories instead of doing their damndest to sink anybody who tries?
Click to expand...

If the teachers unions gave a damn about the kids they wouldn't be encouraging the teachers to step on the RIGHTS of the kids to an education by encouraging the teachers to abandon the kids and their classrooms for days on end. They wouldn't be infringing on the kids parents to have to rearrange their entire lives, too include taking time off work at a loss of much needed pay so that the parents can ensure that their kids are being taken care of in a safe way when they should be in the damn CLASSROOMS being educated by said TEACHERS!

Those teachers in Wisconsin who abandonded their students and classrooms deserve no respect whatsoever. They deserve to be bashed and identified. The teachers who elected to stay and continue teaching their students are the ones to be praised. 

This is left wing politics at it's core. This is Barack Obama politics at it's core. And, not surprisingly, it's the students and their parents who are left holding the bag........DISGRACEFUL!


----------



## teachtoteachme

LibocalypseNow said:


> They can't even get the Teachers to agree on standards testing & evaluations for Teacher job performance. This process would eliminate the under-performing Teachers who don't belong teaching our children. They viciously fight against these evaluations in every State. So the Unions just don't want to compromise and make any concessions. I really do have to applaud this Wisconsin Governor for standing up to them.



I don't pretend to know what line of work you are in, but in whatever job you do, if you were paid on your performance wouldn't you want to be evaluated on what you actually do?  Most standardized tests encompass more material then a teacher can possibly cover in a school year, and unless they teach to the test, it is impossible to know what will be covered on the test.  Do we want our children to be robots who just spew out information, or to be creative thinkers who can make good decisions?  Teachers are not afraid of being evaluated, in fact, most want those evaluations to help them become even better teachers.  The evaluations have to be fair, and not subjective to a test taken by kids with no consequences for doing poorly on the test.  Why should a teacher get a poor evaluation because little Johnny just wants to color in bubbles and not actually try?  Teachers aren't the ones having to agree on the standards that are taught, that comes from the state level, and decisions on what to teach are mandated by what the government deems important for that subject.  If you can't see how this is a political move, then you are blinded by your ignornance.  If it was all unions they wanted to dissolve, then all unions would be involved, not just ones backed more by one political party.  The public education system is flawed, but should not be fixed on the backs of the people who are trying to make a difference.  Everyone should make a sacrifice for the children and their future.


----------



## California Girl

teachtoteachme said:


> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> They can't even get the Teachers to agree on standards testing & evaluations for Teacher job performance. This process would eliminate the under-performing Teachers who don't belong teaching our children. They viciously fight against these evaluations in every State. So the Unions just don't want to compromise and make any concessions. I really do have to applaud this Wisconsin Governor for standing up to them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't pretend to know what line of work you are in, but in whatever job you do, if you were paid on your performance wouldn't you want to be evaluated on what you actually do?  Most standardized tests encompass more material then a teacher can possibly cover in a school year, and unless they teach to the test, it is impossible to know what will be covered on the test.  Do we want our children to be robots who just spew out information, or to be creative thinkers who can make good decisions?  Teachers are not afraid of being evaluated, in fact, most want those evaluations to help them become even better teachers.  The evaluations have to be fair, and not subjective to a test taken by kids with no consequences for doing poorly on the test.  Why should a teacher get a poor evaluation because little Johnny just wants to color in bubbles and not actually try?  Teachers aren't the ones having to agree on the standards that are taught, that comes from the state level, and decisions on what to teach are mandated by what the government deems important for that subject.  If you can't see how this is a political move, then you are blinded by your ignornance.  If it was all unions they wanted to dissolve, then all unions would be involved, not just ones backed more by one political party.  The public education system is flawed, but should not be fixed on the backs of the people who are trying to make a difference.  Everyone should make a sacrifice for the children and their future.
Click to expand...


You used 'then' instead of 'than', and misspelled 'ignorance'.  Some great teacher, you are. Not. 

If you are a teacher, you make a sacrifice.... the rest of America already has. In the real world - the private sector, where most of those kids you teach will end up, we're losing jobs and benefits. Anti up, teacher. Show us how much you care about these kids and this country.... sacrifice with the rest. 

And... for the record.... I have yet to meet a child from the public school system who could 'think creatively'. The skill of critical thinking is, from what I can see, not being taught in public schools... You're too busy teaching the kids to be liberals. You don't want individual thought - you want group think in the Obamanation.


----------



## teachtoteachme

California Girl said:


> teachtoteachme said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> They can't even get the Teachers to agree on standards testing & evaluations for Teacher job performance. This process would eliminate the under-performing Teachers who don't belong teaching our children. They viciously fight against these evaluations in every State. So the Unions just don't want to compromise and make any concessions. I really do have to applaud this Wisconsin Governor for standing up to them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't pretend to know what line of work you are in, but in whatever job you do, if you were paid on your performance wouldn't you want to be evaluated on what you actually do?  Most standardized tests encompass more material then a teacher can possibly cover in a school year, and unless they teach to the test, it is impossible to know what will be covered on the test.  Do we want our children to be robots who just spew out information, or to be creative thinkers who can make good decisions?  Teachers are not afraid of being evaluated, in fact, most want those evaluations to help them become even better teachers.  The evaluations have to be fair, and not subjective to a test taken by kids with no consequences for doing poorly on the test.  Why should a teacher get a poor evaluation because little Johnny just wants to color in bubbles and not actually try?  Teachers aren't the ones having to agree on the standards that are taught, that comes from the state level, and decisions on what to teach are mandated by what the government deems important for that subject.  If you can't see how this is a political move, then you are blinded by your ignornance.  If it was all unions they wanted to dissolve, then all unions would be involved, not just ones backed more by one political party.  The public education system is flawed, but should not be fixed on the backs of the people who are trying to make a difference.  Everyone should make a sacrifice for the children and their future.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You used 'then' instead of 'than', and misspelled 'ignorance'.  Some great teacher, you are. Not.
> 
> If you are a teacher, you make a sacrifice.... the rest of America already has. In the real world - the private sector, where most of those kids you teach will end up, we're losing jobs and benefits. Anti up, teacher. Show us how much you care about these kids and this country.... sacrifice with the rest.
> 
> And... for the record.... I have yet to meet a child from the public school system who could 'think creatively'. The skill of critical thinking is, from what I can see, not being taught in public schools... You're too busy teaching the kids to be liberals. You don't want individual thought - you want group think in the Obamanation.
Click to expand...


When comparing one thing with another you may find that one is more appealing than another. Than is the word you want when doing comparisons. But if you are talking about time, choose then: First you separate the eggs; then you beat the whites. Alexis is smarter than I, not then I. 

Which sentence were you referring to?  I'm so glad you can point out my typo instead of my argument.  I never said I was an English teacher.  Just because you haven't met a child who is a creative thinker from the public school doesn't mean they don't exist.  If you are not a product of a public school, thank your parents for raising such an open-minded person who insults strangers based on a stereotype.

As for the sacrifices I have made, your generalization that I have not made any prove your "ignorance".   You know nothing about me, yet you feel it necessary to lump me into your cynical world.  Easy to act the "bully" behind a computer screen isn't it?  When you are ready to debate without throwing insults, then maybe you will have some credibility.


----------



## Wicked Jester

teachtoteachme said:


> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> They can't even get the Teachers to agree on standards testing & evaluations for Teacher job performance. This process would eliminate the under-performing Teachers who don't belong teaching our children. They viciously fight against these evaluations in every State. So the Unions just don't want to compromise and make any concessions. I really do have to applaud this Wisconsin Governor for standing up to them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't pretend to know what line of work you are in, but in whatever job you do, if you were paid on your performance wouldn't you want to be evaluated on what you actually do?  Most standardized tests encompass more material then a teacher can possibly cover in a school year, and unless they teach to the test, it is impossible to know what will be covered on the test.  Do we want our children to be robots who just spew out information, or to be creative thinkers who can make good decisions?  Teachers are not afraid of being evaluated, in fact, most want those evaluations to help them become even better teachers.  The evaluations have to be fair, and not subjective to a test taken by kids with no consequences for doing poorly on the test.  Why should a teacher get a poor evaluation because little Johnny just wants to color in bubbles and not actually try?  Teachers aren't the ones having to agree on the standards that are taught, that comes from the state level, and decisions on what to teach are mandated by what the government deems important for that subject.  If you can't see how this is a political move, then you are blinded by your ignornance.  If it was all unions they wanted to dissolve, then all unions would be involved, not just ones backed more by one political party.  The public education system is flawed, but should not be fixed on the backs of the people who are trying to make a difference.  Everyone should make a sacrifice for the children and their future.
Click to expand...

So, tell us how infringing on the students RIGHTS to an education by abandoning the students and the classrooms to got to a protest and act like a bunch of self serving morons is helping those students and their futures. Tell us how infringing on the parents of those students who are now forced to rearrange their entire lives, too include taking time off work at a loss of pay to ensure that their kids are safe and being taken care of BECAUSE THOSE KIDS ARE NOT IN THE CLASSROOMS WHERE THEY BELONG, is helping those students and their futures.

And yes, you're right, the public education system is flawed due to many factors. Too include, lousy teachers, parents, unions, ETC.......Face it, teachers such as yourself need to stop putting yourselves on pedestals. You are no more special then ANYBODY working in the private sector at any capacity. Stop this bullshit of claiming that what's happening in Wisconsin and soon to be elsewhere is an attack on ALL teachers. States are broke. In part due to unsustainable gotten gains by unions and their members. It's time to suck it up, quit friggin' whining, and dig deeper into your pockets just like all other americans are having to do......Like I said, you're not special. You chose the profession. Do your damn jobs effectively, or get the hell out!


----------



## Jroc

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lg4t7V-e9dA"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lg4t7V-e9dA[/ame]


----------



## teachtoteachme

Wicked Jester said:


> teachtoteachme said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> They can't even get the Teachers to agree on standards testing & evaluations for Teacher job performance. This process would eliminate the under-performing Teachers who don't belong teaching our children. They viciously fight against these evaluations in every State. So the Unions just don't want to compromise and make any concessions. I really do have to applaud this Wisconsin Governor for standing up to them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't pretend to know what line of work you are in, but in whatever job you do, if you were paid on your performance wouldn't you want to be evaluated on what you actually do?  Most standardized tests encompass more material then a teacher can possibly cover in a school year, and unless they teach to the test, it is impossible to know what will be covered on the test.  Do we want our children to be robots who just spew out information, or to be creative thinkers who can make good decisions?  Teachers are not afraid of being evaluated, in fact, most want those evaluations to help them become even better teachers.  The evaluations have to be fair, and not subjective to a test taken by kids with no consequences for doing poorly on the test.  Why should a teacher get a poor evaluation because little Johnny just wants to color in bubbles and not actually try?  Teachers aren't the ones having to agree on the standards that are taught, that comes from the state level, and decisions on what to teach are mandated by what the government deems important for that subject.  If you can't see how this is a political move, then you are blinded by your ignornance.  If it was all unions they wanted to dissolve, then all unions would be involved, not just ones backed more by one political party.  The public education system is flawed, but should not be fixed on the backs of the people who are trying to make a difference.  Everyone should make a sacrifice for the children and their future.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So, tell us how infringing on the students RIGHTS to an education by abandoning the students and the classrooms to got to a protest and act like a bunch of self serving morons is helping those students and their futures. Tell us how infringing on the parents of those students who are now forced to rearrange their entire lives, too include taking time off work at a loss of pay to ensure that their kids are safe and being taken care of BECAUSE THOSE KIDS ARE NOT IN THE CLASSROOMS WHERE THEY BELONG, is helping those students and their futures.
> 
> And yes, you're right, the public education system is flawed due to many factors. Too include, lousy teachers, parents, unions, ETC.......Face it, teachers such as yourself need to stop putting yourselves on pedestals. You are no more special then ANYBODY working in the private sector at any capacity. Stop this bullshit of claiming that what's happening in Wisconsin and soon to be elsewhere is an attack on ALL teachers. States are broke. In part due to unsustainable gotten gains by unions and their members. It's time to suck it up, quit friggin' whining, and dig deeper into your pockets just like all other americans are having to do......Like I said, you're not special. You chose the profession. Do your damn jobs effectively, or get the hell out!
Click to expand...


Bitter much?  It's Sunday, I have the day off.  How come we don't see anyone complaining about the cab drivers who were blocking the street?  What about the police officers protesting as well?  As an american are you saying that the teacher's right to protest is wrong?  Ever stop to think that the students protesting with those teachers may be learning about how a democracy actually works?  I don't recall putting myself on any pedestal or calling myself special.  What's happening in Wisconsin is an attack on a union that represents teachers, it is not an attack on all unions.  States are broke, but it's not because of teachers.  I do my "damn" job and haven't complained to anybody.  What have you given up for the children?  How often do you volunteer your time for an interest that isn't yours?  Don't lump me into your stereotype.  As for having to re-arrange your schedule to take care of your kids..it's called parenting.  Keep complaining about teachers, and soon you'll be wondering where they all went.


----------



## Annie

teachtoteachme said:


> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> They can't even get the Teachers to agree on standards testing & evaluations for Teacher job performance. This process would eliminate the under-performing Teachers who don't belong teaching our children. They viciously fight against these evaluations in every State. So the Unions just don't want to compromise and make any concessions. I really do have to applaud this Wisconsin Governor for standing up to them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't pretend to know what line of work you are in, but in whatever job you do, if you were paid on your performance wouldn't you want to be evaluated on what you actually do?  Most standardized tests encompass more material then a teacher can possibly cover in a school year, and unless they teach to the test, it is impossible to know what will be covered on the test.  Do we want our children to be robots who just spew out information, or to be creative thinkers who can make good decisions?  Teachers are not afraid of being evaluated, in fact, most want those evaluations to help them become even better teachers.  The evaluations have to be fair, and not subjective to a test taken by kids with no consequences for doing poorly on the test.  Why should a teacher get a poor evaluation because little Johnny just wants to color in bubbles and not actually try?  Teachers aren't the ones having to agree on the standards that are taught, that comes from the state level, and decisions on what to teach are mandated by what the government deems important for that subject.  If you can't see how this is a political move, then you are blinded by your ignornance.  If it was all unions they wanted to dissolve, then all unions would be involved, not just ones backed more by one political party.  The public education system is flawed, but should not be fixed on the backs of the people who are trying to make a difference.  Everyone should make a sacrifice for the children and their future.
Click to expand...


I teach. I've been very open with the criticism of NCLB for evaluating schools on aspects over which they have no control. However, teachers are not evaluated on one standardized test, nor is the expectation that the students will score perfectly one of the parameters used. 

In fact, most students in average schools take standardized tests seriously and do their best. If teachers make their lesson plans in line with the state standards and objectives and use realistic assessments along the way and their students are hitting the benchmarks, the class will come out 'average' give or take the skewing of classes being high or low, on any given standardized tests. Odds are some students will make pictures on the scantron form, others will score in the 99%, while most will come within the limits of the districts norms. 

'Creative thinkers' like 'lifelong learners' are education department sound bites that can be used to cover bad teaching in the guise of respecting individuality at the price of not teaching what students need to learn. On the other hand, it's impossible to teach all information to one person, much less the myriad of students teachers face in a given day or year. Lesson plans that are rich in direct teaching of core subject standards and objectives, while requiring students to research further for information are the basis of both creating thinking and learning how to learn. The emphasis should be on the process, not the product appearance. Yet, that is what many teachers are teaching to, turning out products that appear to showcase the learning, while the kids are basically following directions, not learning to evaluate or synthesize material they find. 

It used to be in IL, I don't know about the rest of the country, that standardized tests were given at the end of March, now many are given at the beginning of October or even earlier. If such types of tests are going to be used for evaluating a teacher each year, seems that one should be given as early as mid-September and again in late March or early-mid April. 

Now evaluations by a principal or administrators are as good as the people evaluating and a clear understanding by all involved of what is being evaluated. Some have solid teaching backgrounds themselves and stay current with best teaching methods. Some haven't been in a classroom in 20+ years or ever and can be impressed or intimidated by new technologies or methodologies. 

A combination of teacher observations and fair standardized testing methods might actually be a fair evaluation method.


----------



## Wicked Jester

teachtoteachme said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> teachtoteachme said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't pretend to know what line of work you are in, but in whatever job you do, if you were paid on your performance wouldn't you want to be evaluated on what you actually do?  Most standardized tests encompass more material then a teacher can possibly cover in a school year, and unless they teach to the test, it is impossible to know what will be covered on the test.  Do we want our children to be robots who just spew out information, or to be creative thinkers who can make good decisions?  Teachers are not afraid of being evaluated, in fact, most want those evaluations to help them become even better teachers.  The evaluations have to be fair, and not subjective to a test taken by kids with no consequences for doing poorly on the test.  Why should a teacher get a poor evaluation because little Johnny just wants to color in bubbles and not actually try?  Teachers aren't the ones having to agree on the standards that are taught, that comes from the state level, and decisions on what to teach are mandated by what the government deems important for that subject.  If you can't see how this is a political move, then you are blinded by your ignornance.  If it was all unions they wanted to dissolve, then all unions would be involved, not just ones backed more by one political party.  The public education system is flawed, but should not be fixed on the backs of the people who are trying to make a difference.  Everyone should make a sacrifice for the children and their future.
> 
> 
> 
> So, tell us how infringing on the students RIGHTS to an education by abandoning the students and the classrooms to got to a protest and act like a bunch of self serving morons is helping those students and their futures. Tell us how infringing on the parents of those students who are now forced to rearrange their entire lives, too include taking time off work at a loss of pay to ensure that their kids are safe and being taken care of BECAUSE THOSE KIDS ARE NOT IN THE CLASSROOMS WHERE THEY BELONG, is helping those students and their futures.
> 
> And yes, you're right, the public education system is flawed due to many factors. Too include, lousy teachers, parents, unions, ETC.......Face it, teachers such as yourself need to stop putting yourselves on pedestals. You are no more special then ANYBODY working in the private sector at any capacity. Stop this bullshit of claiming that what's happening in Wisconsin and soon to be elsewhere is an attack on ALL teachers. States are broke. In part due to unsustainable gotten gains by unions and their members. It's time to suck it up, quit friggin' whining, and dig deeper into your pockets just like all other americans are having to do......Like I said, you're not special. You chose the profession. Do your damn jobs effectively, or get the hell out!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Bitter much?  It's Sunday, I have the day off.  How come we don't see anyone complaining about the cab drivers who were blocking the street?  What about the police officers protesting as well?  As an american are you saying that the teacher's right to protest is wrong?  Ever stop to think that the students protesting with those teachers may be learning about how a democracy actually works?  I don't recall putting myself on any pedestal or calling myself special.  What's happening in Wisconsin is an attack on a union that represents teachers, it is not an attack on all unions.  States are broke, but it's not because of teachers.  I do my "damn" job and haven't complained to anybody.  What have you given up for the children?  How often do you volunteer your time for an interest that isn't yours?  Don't lump me into your stereotype.  As for having to re-arrange your schedule to take care of your kids..it's called parenting.  Keep complaining about teachers, and soon you'll be wondering where they all went.
Click to expand...

Those cab drivers aren't denying the rights of those students to an education by abandoning them in their classrooms. The police officers are protesting ON THEIR OWN TIME. They are barred by law from protesting on company time. It's that lil' safety issue thingamajigee. The teachers can go protest on their own time. And should also be barred by law from abandoning students in their classrooms. Those teachers who have elected to abandon theior classrooms, over 600 of them, aren't doing it for the children. They deserve no respect whatsoever. and if those students need to attend some bullshit protest to learn how democracy works, then there are a hell of a lot of civics teachers who obviously fail them in the classroom. Funny thing is, most of those students don't even have a clue as to what they're really protesting about. It's laughable. Those students whose parents who are having to rearrange their schedules, too include losing pay, are struggling just like every other american these days. Imagine what it does to a one income single mother who is barely making ends meet to have to lose pay because their childs teacher/teachers abandoned their class/classrooms. But then why concern yourself with that?

What have I given for the children?........Trust me, the wife and I are in one of the income brackets that liberals deplore. Far more of our taxes have gone into the system then you could ever hope to imagine. Not to mention the money we give to Cal lutheran university's scholarship fund. Contributions to MANNA food bank, and on and on and on.

Those teachers in Wisconsin are pulling in on average 45-75 grand a year. There is no reason whatsoever that they can't afford to bite the bullet like every other american in the private sector is having to do. And that includes giving up collective bargaining.


----------



## teachtoteachme

Wicked Jester said:


> teachtoteachme said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, tell us how infringing on the students RIGHTS to an education by abandoning the students and the classrooms to got to a protest and act like a bunch of self serving morons is helping those students and their futures. Tell us how infringing on the parents of those students who are now forced to rearrange their entire lives, too include taking time off work at a loss of pay to ensure that their kids are safe and being taken care of BECAUSE THOSE KIDS ARE NOT IN THE CLASSROOMS WHERE THEY BELONG, is helping those students and their futures.
> 
> And yes, you're right, the public education system is flawed due to many factors. Too include, lousy teachers, parents, unions, ETC.......Face it, teachers such as yourself need to stop putting yourselves on pedestals. You are no more special then ANYBODY working in the private sector at any capacity. Stop this bullshit of claiming that what's happening in Wisconsin and soon to be elsewhere is an attack on ALL teachers. States are broke. In part due to unsustainable gotten gains by unions and their members. It's time to suck it up, quit friggin' whining, and dig deeper into your pockets just like all other americans are having to do......Like I said, you're not special. You chose the profession. Do your damn jobs effectively, or get the hell out!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bitter much?  It's Sunday, I have the day off.  How come we don't see anyone complaining about the cab drivers who were blocking the street?  What about the police officers protesting as well?  As an american are you saying that the teacher's right to protest is wrong?  Ever stop to think that the students protesting with those teachers may be learning about how a democracy actually works?  I don't recall putting myself on any pedestal or calling myself special.  What's happening in Wisconsin is an attack on a union that represents teachers, it is not an attack on all unions.  States are broke, but it's not because of teachers.  I do my "damn" job and haven't complained to anybody.  What have you given up for the children?  How often do you volunteer your time for an interest that isn't yours?  Don't lump me into your stereotype.  As for having to re-arrange your schedule to take care of your kids..it's called parenting.  Keep complaining about teachers, and soon you'll be wondering where they all went.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Those cab drivers aren't denying the rights of those students to an education by abandoning them in their classrooms. The police officers are protesting ON THEIR OWN TIME. They are barred by law from protesting on company time. It's that lil' safety issue thingamajigee. The teachers can go protest on their own time. And should also be barred by law from abandoning students in their classrooms. Those teachers who have elected to abandon theior classrooms, over 600 of them, aren't doing it for the children. They deserve no respect whatsoever. and if those students need to attend some bullshit protest to learn how democracy works, then there are a hell of a lot of civics teachers who obviously fail them in the classroom. Funny thing is, most of those students don't even have a clue as to what they're really protesting about. It's laughable. Those students whose parents who are having to rearrange their schedules, too include losing pay, are struggling just like every other american these days. Imagine what it does to a one income single mother who is barely making ends meet to have to lose pay because their childs teacher/teachers abandoned their class/classrooms. But then why concern yourself with that?
> 
> What have I given for the children?........Trust me, the wife and I are in one of the income brackets that liberals deplore. Far more of our taxes have gone into the system then you could ever hope to imagine. Not to mention the money we give to Cal lutheran university's scholarship fund. Contributions to MANNA food bank, and on and on and on.
> 
> Those teachers in Wisconsin are pulling in on average 45-75 grand a year. There is no reason whatsoever that they can't afford to bite the bullet like every other american in the private sector is having to do. And that includes giving up collective bargaining.
Click to expand...


It's great that you give to charities for a tax write off.  Throwing money at something in hopes to make it better is not the volunteering I'm talking about. I'm guessing you attained that income level through a good education, or good luck, and I'm guessing hard work.  Good for you. I don't believe the government should throw or take away money without researching the results.  As my original argument stated, this is not what's best for public education, it's what's best for a political party to gain a stronghold on another.   My point has never been to criticize anyone.  I don't feel a teacher protesting something they believe in is "abandoning" anyone.  Fighting for what you believe in, when others don't, is one of the greatest things about being an American.  How much should those teachers be worth?  You imply that $75K is more then enough for their job, but most attain that level much later in their careers.  This is also the highest they can attain on the pay scale in many cases.  Most educational pay scales top out at the $75k unless a teacher decides to get a doctorate.  Is three degrees enough to make 6 figures?  It is obvious that teachers are not respected as other professionals are, seeing as Doctors and lawyers make those figures easily.


----------



## California Girl

teachtoteachme said:


> California Girl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> teachtoteachme said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't pretend to know what line of work you are in, but in whatever job you do, if you were paid on your performance wouldn't you want to be evaluated on what you actually do?  Most standardized tests encompass more material then a teacher can possibly cover in a school year, and unless they teach to the test, it is impossible to know what will be covered on the test.  Do we want our children to be robots who just spew out information, or to be creative thinkers who can make good decisions?  Teachers are not afraid of being evaluated, in fact, most want those evaluations to help them become even better teachers.  The evaluations have to be fair, and not subjective to a test taken by kids with no consequences for doing poorly on the test.  Why should a teacher get a poor evaluation because little Johnny just wants to color in bubbles and not actually try?  Teachers aren't the ones having to agree on the standards that are taught, that comes from the state level, and decisions on what to teach are mandated by what the government deems important for that subject.  If you can't see how this is a political move, then you are blinded by your ignornance.  If it was all unions they wanted to dissolve, then all unions would be involved, not just ones backed more by one political party.  The public education system is flawed, but should not be fixed on the backs of the people who are trying to make a difference.  Everyone should make a sacrifice for the children and their future.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You used 'then' instead of 'than', and misspelled 'ignorance'.  Some great teacher, you are. Not.
> 
> If you are a teacher, you make a sacrifice.... the rest of America already has. In the real world - the private sector, where most of those kids you teach will end up, we're losing jobs and benefits. Anti up, teacher. Show us how much you care about these kids and this country.... sacrifice with the rest.
> 
> And... for the record.... I have yet to meet a child from the public school system who could 'think creatively'. The skill of critical thinking is, from what I can see, not being taught in public schools... You're too busy teaching the kids to be liberals. You don't want individual thought - you want group think in the Obamanation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When comparing one thing with another you may find that one is more appealing &#8220;than&#8221; another. &#8220;Than&#8221; is the word you want when doing comparisons. But if you are talking about time, choose &#8220;then&#8220;: &#8220;First you separate the eggs; then you beat the whites.&#8221; Alexis is smarter than I, not &#8220;then I.&#8221;
> 
> Which sentence were you referring to?  I'm so glad you can point out my typo instead of my argument.  I never said I was an English teacher.  Just because you haven't met a child who is a creative thinker from the public school doesn't mean they don't exist.  If you are not a product of a public school, thank your parents for raising such an open-minded person who insults strangers based on a stereotype.
> 
> As for the sacrifices I have made, your generalization that I have not made any prove your "ignorance".   You know nothing about me, yet you feel it necessary to lump me into your cynical world.  Easy to act the "bully" behind a computer screen isn't it?  When you are ready to debate without throwing insults, then maybe you will have some credibility.
Click to expand...


We have a rule on this board..... it's 'no family' so you can keep your comments about my parents out of your whining.


----------



## Wicked Jester

teachtoteachme said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> teachtoteachme said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bitter much?  It's Sunday, I have the day off.  How come we don't see anyone complaining about the cab drivers who were blocking the street?  What about the police officers protesting as well?  As an american are you saying that the teacher's right to protest is wrong?  Ever stop to think that the students protesting with those teachers may be learning about how a democracy actually works?  I don't recall putting myself on any pedestal or calling myself special.  What's happening in Wisconsin is an attack on a union that represents teachers, it is not an attack on all unions.  States are broke, but it's not because of teachers.  I do my "damn" job and haven't complained to anybody.  What have you given up for the children?  How often do you volunteer your time for an interest that isn't yours?  Don't lump me into your stereotype.  As for having to re-arrange your schedule to take care of your kids..it's called parenting.  Keep complaining about teachers, and soon you'll be wondering where they all went.
> 
> 
> 
> Those cab drivers aren't denying the rights of those students to an education by abandoning them in their classrooms. The police officers are protesting ON THEIR OWN TIME. They are barred by law from protesting on company time. It's that lil' safety issue thingamajigee. The teachers can go protest on their own time. And should also be barred by law from abandoning students in their classrooms. Those teachers who have elected to abandon theior classrooms, over 600 of them, aren't doing it for the children. They deserve no respect whatsoever. and if those students need to attend some bullshit protest to learn how democracy works, then there are a hell of a lot of civics teachers who obviously fail them in the classroom. Funny thing is, most of those students don't even have a clue as to what they're really protesting about. It's laughable. Those students whose parents who are having to rearrange their schedules, too include losing pay, are struggling just like every other american these days. Imagine what it does to a one income single mother who is barely making ends meet to have to lose pay because their childs teacher/teachers abandoned their class/classrooms. But then why concern yourself with that?
> 
> What have I given for the children?........Trust me, the wife and I are in one of the income brackets that liberals deplore. Far more of our taxes have gone into the system then you could ever hope to imagine. Not to mention the money we give to Cal lutheran university's scholarship fund. Contributions to MANNA food bank, and on and on and on.
> 
> Those teachers in Wisconsin are pulling in on average 45-75 grand a year. There is no reason whatsoever that they can't afford to bite the bullet like every other american in the private sector is having to do. And that includes giving up collective bargaining.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's great that you give to charities for a tax write off.  Throwing money at something in hopes to make it better is not the volunteering I'm talking about. I'm guessing you attained that income level through a good education, or good luck, and I'm guessing hard work.  Good for you. I don't believe the government should throw or take away money without researching the results.  As my original argument stated, this is not what's best for public education, it's what's best for a political party to gain a stronghold on another.   My point has never been to criticize anyone.  I don't feel a teacher protesting something they believe in is "abandoning" anyone.  Fighting for what you believe in, when others don't, is one of the greatest things about being an American.  How much should those teachers be worth?  You imply that $75K is more then enough for their job, but most attain that level much later in their careers.  This is also the highest they can attain on the pay scale in many cases.  Most educational pay scales top out at the $75k unless a teacher decides to get a doctorate.  Is three degrees enough to make 6 figures?  It is obvious that teachers are not respected as other professionals are, seeing as Doctors and lawyers make those figures easily.
Click to expand...

LMAO.......You imply that we donate for the write off?......How are we making anything when we just turn around every year and redonate it?

Fighting for what you believe in is perfectly fine. DO IT ON YOUR OWN DAMN TIME. Stop stepping on the rights of the students to an education. Stop bleeding the parents of much needed pay. Stop calling in sick to go protest, you're only screwing the school baords, taxpayers, students, and their parents. You are commiting fraud when doing so.......At least the school board has said they will go after those teachers who called in sick and are identified as being in the protests. The State AG has now said he has no choice but to look into possible criminal activity......GOOD!

And yes, 45-75 g's is perfectly in line for the jobs they do. Particularly considering the very generous benefits and pensions you receive. Not to mention all the time off.


----------



## Annie

teachtoteachme said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> teachtoteachme said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bitter much?  It's Sunday, I have the day off.  How come we don't see anyone complaining about the cab drivers who were blocking the street?  What about the police officers protesting as well?  As an american are you saying that the teacher's right to protest is wrong?  Ever stop to think that the students protesting with those teachers may be learning about how a democracy actually works?  I don't recall putting myself on any pedestal or calling myself special.  What's happening in Wisconsin is an attack on a union that represents teachers, it is not an attack on all unions.  States are broke, but it's not because of teachers.  I do my "damn" job and haven't complained to anybody.  What have you given up for the children?  How often do you volunteer your time for an interest that isn't yours?  Don't lump me into your stereotype.  As for having to re-arrange your schedule to take care of your kids..it's called parenting.  Keep complaining about teachers, and soon you'll be wondering where they all went.
> 
> 
> 
> Those cab drivers aren't denying the rights of those students to an education by abandoning them in their classrooms. The police officers are protesting ON THEIR OWN TIME. They are barred by law from protesting on company time. It's that lil' safety issue thingamajigee. The teachers can go protest on their own time. And should also be barred by law from abandoning students in their classrooms. Those teachers who have elected to abandon theior classrooms, over 600 of them, aren't doing it for the children. They deserve no respect whatsoever. and if those students need to attend some bullshit protest to learn how democracy works, then there are a hell of a lot of civics teachers who obviously fail them in the classroom. Funny thing is, most of those students don't even have a clue as to what they're really protesting about. It's laughable. Those students whose parents who are having to rearrange their schedules, too include losing pay, are struggling just like every other american these days. Imagine what it does to a one income single mother who is barely making ends meet to have to lose pay because their childs teacher/teachers abandoned their class/classrooms. But then why concern yourself with that?
> 
> What have I given for the children?........Trust me, the wife and I are in one of the income brackets that liberals deplore. Far more of our taxes have gone into the system then you could ever hope to imagine. Not to mention the money we give to Cal lutheran university's scholarship fund. Contributions to MANNA food bank, and on and on and on.
> 
> Those teachers in Wisconsin are pulling in on average 45-75 grand a year. There is no reason whatsoever that they can't afford to bite the bullet like every other american in the private sector is having to do. And that includes giving up collective bargaining.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's great that you give to charities for a tax write off.  Throwing money at something in hopes to make it better is not the volunteering I'm talking about. I'm guessing you attained that income level through a good education, or good luck, and I'm guessing hard work.  Good for you. I don't believe the government should throw or take away money without researching the results.  As my original argument stated, this is not what's best for public education, it's what's best for a political party to gain a stronghold on another.   My point has never been to criticize anyone.  I don't feel a teacher protesting something they believe in is "abandoning" anyone.  Fighting for what you believe in, when others don't, is one of the greatest things about being an American.  How much should those teachers be worth?  You imply that $75K is more then enough for their job, but most attain that level much later in their careers.  This is also the highest they can attain on the pay scale in many cases.  Most educational pay scales top out at the $75k unless a teacher decides to get a doctorate.  Is three degrees enough to make 6 figures?  It is obvious that teachers are not respected as other professionals are, seeing as Doctors and lawyers make those figures easily.
Click to expand...


What you are quoting as topping out are the lower paying states. Around here, (IL) there are many teachers making well over $100k, some in the neighborhood of $170k with extracurricular pay figured in. Yes, they have all the goldens too regarding benefits added on top of those salaries. Yes, I wish I had one of those jobs which doesn't change the fact that they are non-sustainable. Even in wealthy areas, this is too far a discrepancy between the average income of the taxpayer, nearly double avg family income, never mind average worker income. 

No one is denying the teachers or anyone the right to protest. They are angry that they are getting paid for it while calling in sick en masse, which has resulted in havoc with parents work and will cause havoc for the days lost at the end of the year.


----------



## saveliberty

Simple really.  Order them back to work and fire those who don't comply ala Reagan and air traffic controllers.  Video tape all the protestors.


----------



## Dr.House

Have the chickenshit democratic senators returned from their undisclosed location where they ran away to yet?


----------



## Samson

shintao said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> shintao said:
> 
> 
> 
> Of course not! Because there is no change made between Union and nonUnion teachers. They just call themselves nonUnion & carry on with Union activities all the way to lobbyist in DC.  Instead of paying dues, they pay for Umbrella Insurance like a doctor does.
> 
> Legal Protection
> 
> Included in the $2,000,000 individual liability insurance policy purchased for each professional member, AAE *Legal Protection benefits ensure that members have access to legal counsel at the onset of workplace issues and Defense costs related to liability insurance claims *are paid in addition to the $2,000,000 limit. Legal coverage applies to any legal action arising out of duties as an employee of an education entity, including:
> 
> civil rights cases
> lawsuits against the insured by parents or other teachers
> lawsuits against the insured for injunctive relief, declaratory relief, or other non-monetary relief
> *sexual misconduct *(if found not guilty or charges are dropped)
> corporal punishment (if found not guilty or charges are dropped)
> 
> 
> 
> Employment Rights Coverage
> 
> Included in the $2,000,000 individual liability insurance policy purchased for each professional member, *AAE Employment Rights Coverage ensures that members have access to legal counsel at the onset of workplace employment issues. Members are able to immediately consult with an attorney if they are threatened with termination, suspension, reassignment, or demotion.* AAE Employment Rights Coverage provides or reimburses for an attorney to be involved with consultation and hearings (up to specified limits).
> 
> Member Benefits
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure if we're on the same page:
> 
> A group that collectively bargains with an insurance company =/= a group that collectively bargains with their employer
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> OH, so you just oppose having one voice represent many voices for wages & benefits? Isn't that undemocratic of you? UnCapitalistic of you? Do you also oppose Corporate board meetings with CEOs present to negotiate wages & benefits & bonuses? Are they making too much as well?
> 
> And it is not an insurance company, it is a teachers association that has insurance as a member benefit.
> 
> 
> 
> AAE is America's fastest growing national, nonprofit, *nonunion teachers' association with members *in all 50 states.
> 
> 
> 
> AAE offers professional member benefits such as liability insurance and legal protection, professional development, newsletters, scholarships, classroom grants, and a voice on educational issuesbut at a fraction of the cost of most other associations' dues.
Click to expand...


You seem hopelessly confused.

AAE offers member benefits. USAA offers member benefits.

But neither offers collective bargaining representation to employers of their membership. Therefore your posts about them are offtopic in a thread about *Teacher UNIONS*.

Now to address your frothy nonsensical ravings:



> OH, so you just oppose having one voice represent many voices for wages & benefits? Isn't that undemocratic of you? UnCapitalistic of you? Do you also oppose Corporate board meetings with CEOs present to negotiate wages & benefits & bonuses? Are they making too much as well?



I oppose government employees walking off the job and impairing the national security, commerce, and health.

Frankly, I'm not even sure why having public school teachers is better than simply having the private sector control education, where I would find unionization of teachers quite acceptable. But if people are going to accept a GOVERNMENT job, then they'd better also accept they are employed by the PUBLIC TRUST.


----------



## chanel

If they broke the law, arrest them.

But is the argumenrt is over 56K and health insurance, arrest the politicians. Teachers are not responsible for the 16K health insurance bill.

Obamacare was supposed to lower those premiums, right? 
Perhaos the finger pointing is in the wrong direction.

Just sayin...


----------



## Jroc

2/3rds of Detroit Public Schools 300 million dollar budget defecit! are personel costs 
they planning are close half of all the schools making class size 60 students per class! Teachers unions are a big part of the problem. 




> Detroit appears to be one of the first municipalities to finally be addressing the education problem, and debt hole it has become.  *With teacher pensions and union contracts continuing to grow as the economy slides downward,* this department must be addressed in every city, otherwise the alternatives are massive cuts, or city bankruptcy


.


Detroit's budget woes lead to school closings and not paying utility bills - National Finance Examiner | Examiner.com


----------



## waynefromaitkin

LibocalypseNow said:


> Kudos to new Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker!
> 
> More brave Politicians need to start standing up to the corrupt Teacher Unions. The Teacher Unions have brought our Public School System to its knees. It has become all about them. It's all about getting that cash for them. They don't care about the kids anymore. They also only want to force their politics and social experimenting on the kids at this point. Their number one goal these last few decades has been to brainwash the children and create good little future adult Democrats. They stopped teaching the kids the basics of Education a long time ago.
> 
> Teacher Unions now only do far more harm than they do good. It's time for them to go away. The Public School System will be so much better off when they're gone. The Kids could actually start learning again. American kids continue to fall further & further behind other far less developed and less wealthy nations. I do blame the Teacher Unions for this. They have become too obsessed with the cash and creating good little future adult Democrats. They have lost their way. Get rid of the Teacher Unions and our Public School System might just be salvaged.


this I will disagree with you on. The administration will play these techers like a bounsing ball. alway hire the newly graduated teachers and fire the old skill ones. [cost you know]


----------



## LibocalypseNow

Teacher Unions are part of the problem,not the solution. If the Governor can show that they are currently violating their agreement with the Wisconsin Government,he may be able to legally fire them. It's not something i want to see happen but the Teacher Unions aren't giving the guy much choice.


----------



## mudwhistle

WillowTree said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kudos to new Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker!
> 
> More brave Politicians need to start standing up to the corrupt Teacher Unions. The Teacher Unions have brought our Public School System to its knees. It has become all about them. It's all about getting that cash for them. They don't care about the kids anymore. They also only want to force their politics and social experimenting on the kids at this point. Their number one goal these last few decades has been to brainwash the children and create good little future adult Democrats. They stopped teaching the kids the basics of Education a long time ago.
> 
> Teacher Unions now only do far more harm than they do good. It's time for them to go away. The Public School System will be so much better off when they're gone. The Kids could actually start learning again. American kids continue to fall further & further behind other far less developed and less wealthy nations. I do blame the Teacher Unions for this. They have become too obsessed with the cash and creating good little future adult Democrats. They have lost their way. Get rid of the Teacher Unions and our Public School System might just be able to be salvaged.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How much time have YOU spend in the classroom Libo?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Didn't you mean "spent"? I don't think "spend" goes well in this sentence.
Click to expand...


Not spend or spent but invest.


----------



## Foxfyre

mudwhistle said:


> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> How much time have YOU spend in the classroom Libo?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Didn't you mean "spent"? I don't think "spend" goes well in this sentence.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not spend or spent but invest.
Click to expand...


"Invest" in Obamaspeak too often looks more like payoff, bribe, soliciation, cronyism, and/or unholy alliances.

I would really like to see all that not involve our schools.


----------



## Foxfyre

After listening, watching, and reading up on everything I could find on this over the last few days, I think this is the problem:

For decades now, politicians, probably both Democrat and Republican, have been negotiating contracts with public employees.  Politicians often need the votes of those public employees to get themselves elected or to get certain initiatives passed.  So when wage and benefits negotiations come around, it was all too easy for those politicians to agree to increases in wages and benefits on down the road.  It wouldn't affect their immediate budgets and wouldn't kick in until they had had their last election or were out of office.  (Sort of like the most onerous and objectionable parts of Obamacare are not scheduled to kick in until after the 2012 election or that if everything he has gotten is allowed to stand, he has added $8 trillion to the deficit over the next ten years.)

Well all those promises that didn't affect anybody immediately have now ripened and come home to roost at the state levels.   It would be wonderful to give public employees cadillac wages and benefits, but the fact is the taxpayers have to come up with the money to do that.  And the unfunded entitlements have now surpassed the ability of the taxpayers to do it.

If the unions won't willingly renegotiate unsustainable contracts, then the only alternative is for the feds to pass a law allowing the states to declare bankruptcy, bust the unions, and start over with sustainable policy.


----------



## mudwhistle

Foxfyre said:


> After listening, watching, and reading up on everything I could find on this over the last few days, I think this is the problem:
> 
> For decades now, politicians, probably both Democrat and Republican, have been negotiating contracts with public employees.  Politicians often need the votes of those public employees to get themselves elected or to get certain initiatives passed.  So when wage and benefits negotiations come around, it was all too easy for those politicians to agree to increases in wages and benefits on down the road.  It wouldn't affect their immediate budgets and wouldn't kick in until they had had their last election or were out of office.  (Sort of like the most onerous and objectionable parts of Obamacare are not scheduled to kick in until after the 2012 election or that if everything he has gotten is allowed to stand, he has added $8 trillion to the deficit over the next ten years.)
> 
> Well all those promises that didn't affect anybody immediately have now ripened and come home to roost at the state levels.   It would be wonderful to give public employees cadillac wages and benefits, but the fact is the taxpayers have to come up with the money to do that.  And the unfunded entitlements have now surpassed the ability of the taxpayers to do it.
> 
> If the unions won't willingly renegotiate unsustainable contracts, then the only alternative is for the feds to pass a law allowing the states to declare bankruptcy, bust the unions, and start over with sustainable policy.



Figure the odds on that happening. The Dems will never allow that to happen. They'll lose all of their credibility. No, the unions are too big to fail.

It's one thing to negotiate with these people and yet another to use our money to pay for it. Obama has stuck the states with massive bills. Unemployment insurance is paid by the state and he promised them he would bail them out. Looks like it's not gonna pass. Now he's trying to cause the states to go deeper into debt by supporting their unions. He's painted himself into a corner and he's trying to look good. Maybe he figures it will help him in the election.


----------



## LibocalypseNow

And those Doctors who handed out those excuse notes to the crowd should be fully investigated and their licences should be re-examined. At the very least it was very unethical on their part.


----------



## Wicked Jester

LibocalypseNow said:


> And those Doctors who handed out those excuse notes to the crowd should be fully investigated and their licences should be re-examined. At the very least it was very unethical on their part.


And guess where those doctors are based...........University of Wisconsin.

It's definitely unethical, and should go to the state medical board for investigation

It's definitely fraudulent, and should go to the state AG office for criminal prosecution.


----------



## Bern80

NYcarbineer said:


> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers have it pretty good compared to many other occupations. Yet Teachers seem to do the most whining & complaining. They get all weekends off,several weeks of paid Holiday time off,and they get their Summers off. That just doesn't seem so horrible. Of all professions,Teachers by far do the most whining & complaining. Look around America and see how many Americans enjoy all weekends off,several weeks of paid Holiday time off,and entire Summers off. So Teachers do have it pretty good. They need to slow down on their whiny greed. It does come down to the Teacher Unions in the end. They force their members to whine & complain so much. Give em the boot and our Schools might just recover.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers earn far less on average than non-teachers with the same level of education required for the job.
Click to expand...


Probably because that education is put to actual use far less than a non-teacher. Lib, is right. The education of a teacher isn't the only variable that determines their income. They work less than damn near everyone else and they have the nerve to comoplain that they aren't paid as much as someone else?


----------



## LibocalypseNow

Give me a flippin break! All Weekends off,Several weeks of paid Holiday Time off,and entire Summers off? Man,Teachers do have it pretty good. If you don't believe me,just look around this Country and see for yourself how many American Workers enjoy those kinds of benefits. Teachers just bitch way too much. Most people don't have so much sympathy for them anymore. Most Americans are far too busy working 6-Day work-weeks & Holidays to have sympathy for Teachers. These Teachers in Wisconsin need to quit their bitchin and just get back to work. The Kids deserve better than this.


----------



## LibocalypseNow

Teachers even had a paid day off today for President's Day. I got news for you,most other American Workers had to show up for work today. So spare me all your whining Teachers. You got it pretty damn good. Now get back to work. The Kids need you.


----------



## Annie

Wicked Jester said:


> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> And those Doctors who handed out those excuse notes to the crowd should be fully investigated and their licences should be re-examined. At the very least it was very unethical on their part.
> 
> 
> 
> And guess where those doctors are based...........University of Wisconsin.
> 
> It's definitely unethical, and should go to the state medical board for investigation
> 
> It's definitely fraudulent, and should go to the state AG office for criminal prosecution.
Click to expand...


They showed up over and over again in both media and print, now they are being investigated:

News: Statement Regarding UW Health Physicians, UW Health, University of Wisconsin Hospital, Madison



> Statement Regarding UW Health Physicians
> 
> UW HealthThere are reports on both social media and news websites that a number of UW Health physicians were signing "medical excuse" notes for protesters at the Capitol on Feb. 19. This involves a few individuals out of the nearly 1,300 physicians at UW Health.
> 
> These UW Health physicians were acting on their own and without the knowledge or approval of UW Health. These charges are very serious and in response, University of Wisconsin School of Medicine and Public Health and University of Wisconsin Medical Foundation, the UW Health entities that employ the physicians, have immediately launched an investigation of the reported behavior.
> 
> The investigation will identify which UW Health physicians were involved and whether their behavior constituted violations of medical ethics or University of Wisconsin and UW Health policies and work rules. The investigation and any potential future action will follow the established procedures of the University of Wisconsin. Any future disciplinary action taken will be considered a personnel matter and will be treated with the confidentiality required by University of Wisconsin policies.
> 
> Date Published: 02/21/2011


----------



## Samson

LibocalypseNow said:


> Give me a flippin break! All Weekends off,Several weeks of paid Holiday Time off,and entire Summers off? Man,Teachers do have it pretty good. If you don't believe me,just look around this Country and see for yourself how many American Workers enjoy those kinds of benefits. Teachers just bitch way too much. Most people don't have so much sympathy for them anymore. Most Americans are far too busy working 6-Day work-weeks & Holidays to have sympathy for Teachers. These Teachers in Wisconsin need to quit their bitchin and just get back to work. The Kids deserve better than this.



I agree: The best part of teaching is not working:

Fall Break: 1 week
Winter Break: 2 weeks
Spring Break: 1 week
Summer Break: 8 weeks

*12 weeks!!!!* And I'm not counting "Work Days" where kids don't show up at school, and all the various and sundry holidays (MLK's B'day, Easter, Columbus Day, etc., etc.)


----------



## LibocalypseNow

Samson said:


> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Give me a flippin break! All Weekends off,Several weeks of paid Holiday Time off,and entire Summers off? Man,Teachers do have it pretty good. If you don't believe me,just look around this Country and see for yourself how many American Workers enjoy those kinds of benefits. Teachers just bitch way too much. Most people don't have so much sympathy for them anymore. Most Americans are far too busy working 6-Day work-weeks & Holidays to have sympathy for Teachers. These Teachers in Wisconsin need to quit their bitchin and just get back to work. The Kids deserve better than this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree: The best part of teaching is not working:
> 
> Fall Break: 1 week
> Winter Break: 2 weeks
> Spring Break: 1 week
> Summer Break: 8 weeks
> 
> *12 weeks!!!!* And I'm not counting "Work Days" where kids don't show up at school, and all the various and sundry holidays (MLK's B'day, Easter, Columbus Day, etc., etc.)
Click to expand...


Yes,Teachers enjoy benefits no other American Workers enjoy. They just do way too much Bitchin. If you're in it for the cash,then just get out and go look for another line of work. Teachers even had today off for President's Day. How many other American Workers were paid to be off today? I can assure you it wasn't many. Most had to show up for work today. These Wisconsin Teachers need to quit complaining and just get back to work. They don't have it so bad. It's just more greed and politics coming from them.


----------



## Flopper

LibocalypseNow said:


> Give me a flippin break! All Weekends off,Several weeks of paid Holiday Time off,and entire Summers off? Man,Teachers do have it pretty good. If you don't believe me,just look around this Country and see for yourself how many American Workers enjoy those kinds of benefits. Teachers just bitch way too much. Most people don't have so much sympathy for them anymore. Most Americans are far too busy working 6-Day work-weeks & Holidays to have sympathy for Teachers. These Teachers in Wisconsin need to quit their bitchin and just get back to work. The Kids deserve better than this.


*I taught school for one year and it was the worst job I have ever had.  The pay was crappy.  The work was hard and the hours were long.  Yes, I said the hours were long.  Parents dropped their kids off at 8 and pick them up at 3 and said gee those teachers have got it made. They only have to work 7 hrs a day.  To that I say BULL SHIT!   It's more like 7:30 to 4:00, with hall monitoring, bus duty, chess club, and weekly staff meetings.  Those hours would have been just fine if that was all, but every single night there were papers to grade, tests to prepare, lesson plans, student evaluations, state surveys, district surveys... Then there were the teacher parent conferences, PTA meetings, meetings with your curriculum supervisor, taking up tickets at  basketball games.   And that wonderful summer vacation with 3 months off, which was really only two months, I spent teaching summer school.  That year, I think I had 7 days vacation.

I think what sent me out looking for a job was news that I had to buy all my classroom supplies out of my own pocket and there was only enough text books for for 22 students, when class was going to be over 30.  After 1 year, I quit my $26,000/yr teaching job and took a job in industry at $40,000 with better benefits.  After 5 years, I had a promotion and was making about $55,000.  Had I stayed in the teaching job, I would have been making about $30,000 after 5 years.  The only way to get a promotion as a teacher would have been to get a Master's Degree, which at time would have cost me $8,000 that I didn't have.  The smartest move I ever made was getting out of teaching.

I really wish that every teacher in the country would walk off the job so people like you could give teaching a try and see just what an easy job it is.*


----------



## Oddball

I wish they'd walk off the job too, and see what it's like to actually have to produce results to get paid.


----------



## Flopper

Oddball said:


> I wish they'd walk off the job too, and see what it's like to actually have to produce results to get paid.


*Our approach to education in the US makes no sense.  We acknowledge that without real improvements in education, the US will slip further and further behind other countries.  But instead of looking for ways to bring better teachers into the field and retain them, we look for ways to discourage them by cutting benefits, freezing pay, and cutting positions.

In China a teacher is generally regarded as the most important member of the community.  I saw a study a few years ago in which people in several US communities were asked to list the most important jobs in their community.  The most important job in most communities turned out to be the garbage collector followed closely by policemen and firemen.  Teachers generally fell somewhere between street cleaners and domestic help.  As you might expect some communities pay teachers less than garbage collectors.  They may have crappy teachers but they probably have great garbage service. 
*


----------



## LibocalypseNow

Most people respect Teachers. They just don't respect the greedy political activist Teacher Unions. Personally,i do respect Teachers but i also think they complain too much. They receive some pretty nice benefits compared to many other professions in this country. Try working 6-Day Work-Weeks and Holidays. For example,most American Workers didn't have a paid day off today for President's Day. Most had to show up for work today. Many American Workers have it rough but none whine more than Teachers. They should stop all the complaining and focus more on helping the kids. If you're in it to get rich,then get the Hell out and go find another line of work. No one likes a whiner. It is what it is.


----------



## Oddball

Flopper said:


> Oddball said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wish they'd walk off the job too, and see what it's like to actually have to produce results to get paid.
> 
> 
> 
> *Our approach to education in the US makes no sense.*
Click to expand...

Very little that is run by gubmint does makes sense...Your point is?



Flopper said:


> *We acknowledge that without real improvements in education, the US will slip further and further behind other countries.  But instead of looking for ways to bring better teachers into the field and retain them, we look for ways to discourage them by cutting benefits, freezing pay, and cutting positions.*


Who is "we"?...You got a turd in your pocket?



Flopper said:


> *In China a teacher is generally regarded as the most important member of the community.  I saw a study a few years ago in which people in several US communities were asked to list the most important jobs in their community.  The most important job in most communities turned out to be the garbage collector followed closely by policemen and firemen.  Teachers generally fell somewhere between street cleaners and domestic help.  As you might expect some communities pay teachers less than garbage collectors.  They may have crappy teachers but they probably have great garbage service.
> *


In some communities garbage collectors have to actually compete with others for their business....Can't say the same for teachers in gubmint schools.


----------



## Wicked Jester

Oddball said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oddball said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wish they'd walk off the job too, and see what it's like to actually have to produce results to get paid.
> 
> 
> 
> *Our approach to education in the US makes no sense.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Very little that is run by gubmint does makes sense...Your point is?
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> *We acknowledge that without real improvements in education, the US will slip further and further behind other countries.  But instead of looking for ways to bring better teachers into the field and retain them, we look for ways to discourage them by cutting benefits, freezing pay, and cutting positions.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Who is "we"?...You got a turd in your pocket?
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> *In China a teacher is generally regarded as the most important member of the community.  I saw a study a few years ago in which people in several US communities were asked to list the most important jobs in their community.  The most important job in most communities turned out to be the garbage collector followed closely by policemen and firemen.  Teachers generally fell somewhere between street cleaners and domestic help.  As you might expect some communities pay teachers less than garbage collectors.  They may have crappy teachers but they probably have great garbage service.
> *
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In some communities garbage collectors have to actually compete with others for their business....Can't say the same for teachers in gubmint schools.
Click to expand...

As to your last point, that is exactly why I our school system should be run by the private sector.

Christ, government can't run Thomas The Train (AMTRAK), and we're supposed to continue to believe they'll magically turn around the school system?


----------



## Flopper

LibocalypseNow said:


> Most people respect Teachers. They just don't respect the greedy political activist Teacher Unions. Personally,i do respect Teachers but i also think they complain too much. They receive some pretty nice benefits compared to many other professions in this country. Try working 6-Day Work-Weeks and Holidays. For example,most American Workers didn't have a paid day off today for President's Day. Most had to show up for work today. Many American Workers have it rough but none whine more than Teachers. They should stop all the complaining and focus more on helping the kids. If you're in it to get rich,then get the Hell out and go find another line of work. No one likes a whiner. It is what it is.


I think it's hard to compare teaching with most jobs.  Teaching does have some nice perks, like additional holidays and better than average retirement but there's lot of responsibility.  In households where both parents work, which are most households, many kids spend more time with their teacher than than they do their parents.  In essence, teachers are becoming substitute parents in addition to teaching.    

Getting rid of teacher unions does not fix the problem.   Higher salaries, an improved work environment, higher standards, better training, and opportunities for advance are a good start.


----------



## Wicked Jester

Flopper said:


> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Most people respect Teachers. They just don't respect the greedy political activist Teacher Unions. Personally,i do respect Teachers but i also think they complain too much. They receive some pretty nice benefits compared to many other professions in this country. Try working 6-Day Work-Weeks and Holidays. For example,most American Workers didn't have a paid day off today for President's Day. Most had to show up for work today. Many American Workers have it rough but none whine more than Teachers. They should stop all the complaining and focus more on helping the kids. If you're in it to get rich,then get the Hell out and go find another line of work. No one likes a whiner. It is what it is.
> 
> 
> 
> I think it's hard to compare teaching with most jobs.  Teaching does have some nice perks, like additional holidays and better than average retirement but there's lot of responsibility.  In households where both parents work, which are most households, many kids spend more time with their teacher than than they do their parents.  In essence, teachers are becoming substitute parents in addition to teaching.
> 
> Getting rid of teacher unions does not fix the problem.   Higher salaries, an improved work environment, higher standards, better training, and opportunities for advance are a good start.
Click to expand...

Fine, lets privatize the system, and go with a performance based pay scale. You can have your union, they just don't bargain for pay. No more collective bargaining.

How's that for starters?

And while we're at it, lets install cameras in every damn classroom in the country, where parents can log in and see and hear exactly what's going on in their childrens classrooms.

My wife and I have that ability through our chidrens private school. It's a great thing.


----------



## chanel

Schools in NJ aren't even permitted to take yearbook photos without express written permission.  It would never happen.  Next...


----------



## Wicked Jester

chanel said:


> Schools in NJ aren't even permitted to take yearbook photos without express written permission.  It would never happen.  Next...


It could definitely happen, and should happen.

Teachers will know they are being watched. Students will know they are being watched. Gone will be the days of teachers ramming their political bends down the students throats. No more, "MMM MMM MMM, Barack Hussein Obama". No more "Brokeback Mountain" being shown to 13 year olds as happened in a PUBLIC SCHOOL just last month. The teachers will have to teach their subjects. The teachers will know they damn sure better perform as expected. The teachers will be protected from false accusations of misconduct by students and parents. Students will know that if they act up, it's all right there to be seen. Students will know that they better tow the line. Parents will know exactly how their children are being tought. Parents will know if teachers are behaving in a proper manner with their children. They will know their children are in class where they belong. They will know what homework is assigned. They will know if their children are struggling. The school boards will see exactly how their teachers are performong in real time. The school boards will be able to identify problem students and those who are struggling in real time, thereby giving them the ability to immediately to rectify, etc. etc.........Next.....


----------



## JamesInFlorida

LibocalypseNow said:


> T*eachers even had a paid day off today for President's Day*. I got news for you,most other American Workers had to show up for work today. So spare me all your whining Teachers. You got it pretty damn good. Now get back to work. The Kids need you.



Not teachers in my county.


----------



## LibocalypseNow

JamesInFlorida said:


> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> T*eachers even had a paid day off today for President's Day*. I got news for you,most other American Workers had to show up for work today. So spare me all your whining Teachers. You got it pretty damn good. Now get back to work. The Kids need you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not teachers in my county.
Click to expand...


Teachers had a paid day off in my area. Most other American Workers had to show up for work on President's Day.


----------



## JamesInFlorida

LibocalypseNow said:


> JamesInFlorida said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> T*eachers even had a paid day off today for President's Day*. I got news for you,most other American Workers had to show up for work today. So spare me all your whining Teachers. You got it pretty damn good. Now get back to work. The Kids need you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not teachers in my county.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Teachers had a paid day off in my area. Most other American Workers had to show up for work on President's Day.
Click to expand...


I'm sure many teachers got off-but as I said school was in session yesterday here.

And I don't think teacher's jobs are as great as what you're saying-there's TONS of openings here (especially in English and Science classes). If being a teacher was so appealing-there wouldn't be a lot openings.

And you haven't really addressed (at least in the posts I've seen-I haven't read the whole thread), the fact that teachers have papers/tests to grade, lessons plans to make, many work more than 8 hours a day at the schools, and so on.


----------



## LibocalypseNow

JamesInFlorida said:


> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JamesInFlorida said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not teachers in my county.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers had a paid day off in my area. Most other American Workers had to show up for work on President's Day.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm sure many teachers got off-but as I said school was in session yesterday here.
> 
> And I don't think teacher's jobs are as great as what you're saying-there's TONS of openings here (especially in English and Science classes). If being a teacher was so appealing-there wouldn't be a lot openings.
> 
> And you haven't really addressed (at least in the posts I've seen-I haven't read the whole thread), the fact that teachers have papers/tests to grade, lessons plans to make, many work more than 8 hours a day at the schools, and so on.
Click to expand...


What other professions have all Weekends Off,Several Weeks of Paid Holiday Time Off,and Summers Off? I never said Teaching was an easy job. Not many jobs are. I'm just saying they do have it pretty good. As far as professions go,they are easily the biggest whiners in the country. Most people have tough jobs. Teachers aren't the only ones who have tough jobs. Their benefits are fantastic and most other American Workers can only dream about such benefits. Try working those 6-Day Work-Weeks and Holidays. Then get back to me on how awful Teachers have it. Time for Teachers to do less complaining and do more Teaching.


----------



## Wicked Jester

LibocalypseNow said:


> JamesInFlorida said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers had a paid day off in my area. Most other American Workers had to show up for work on President's Day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure many teachers got off-but as I said school was in session yesterday here.
> 
> And I don't think teacher's jobs are as great as what you're saying-there's TONS of openings here (especially in English and Science classes). If being a teacher was so appealing-there wouldn't be a lot openings.
> 
> And you haven't really addressed (at least in the posts I've seen-I haven't read the whole thread), the fact that teachers have papers/tests to grade, lessons plans to make, many work more than 8 hours a day at the schools, and so on.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What other professions have all Weekends Off,Several Weeks of Paid Holiday Time Off,and Summers Off? I never said Teaching was an easy job. Not many jobs are. I'm just saying they do have it pretty good. As far as professions go,they are easily the biggest whiners in the country. Most people have tough jobs. Teachers aren't the only ones who have tough jobs. Their benefits are fantastic and most other American Workers can only dream about such benefits. Try working those 6-Day Work-Weeks and Holidays. Then get back to me on how awful Teachers have it. Time for Teachers to do less complaining and do more Teaching.
Click to expand...

No shit......Try working twelve hours a day, busting ass 6 days a week, Xmas day, thanksigiving day, Easter Sunday, for shit pay and no benefits as I did as a line cook trying to make my bones and become a legitimate chef.......Yeah, those teachers sure have it rough alright. 

I never bitched about it. I knew it came with the territory. Knew that, that is what it takes to get where I wanted to be. And I got there, quite successfully.


----------



## Foxfyre

In defense of teachers, their day usually isn't just the five or six hours they teach in a classroom.  Most usually do have study hall supervision, hall monitor duty, and there are lesson plans to lay out, tests and papers to grade, etc. all outside those five or six hours.  Even when you substitute teach, coming up with a decent lesson plan takes one to two hours for each subject or age group you teach.

But that means a teacher spends about the same amount of time in a work day as most of us spend.  AND, unless he or she volunteers to supervise extra curricular activities, as many of us parents do, the teacher still has all weekends off plus numerous scheduled holidays and periods of break in the work year and most summers off.  Even if he or she has to take a course during the summer to keep certification current, that generally does not take all summer or every day or more than a few hours a day to do.

So let's don't pretend a teacher's job is less mportant or less difficult than it is.  A good teacher DOES earn his/her pay.

And let's also don't pretend that a teacher's job is worse than it is so far as the  responsibilities and compensation involved.


----------



## bodecea

LibocalypseNow said:


> JamesInFlorida said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> T*eachers even had a paid day off today for President's Day*. I got news for you,most other American Workers had to show up for work today. So spare me all your whining Teachers. You got it pretty damn good. Now get back to work. The Kids need you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not teachers in my county.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Teachers had a paid day off in my area. Most other American Workers had to show up for work on President's Day.
Click to expand...


The students had time off....and the post office, and all government offices and the banks around here had the day off....


But....let's point fingers at the teachers and blame their union....kkay?


----------



## HUGGY

Wicked Jester said:


> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JamesInFlorida said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure many teachers got off-but as I said school was in session yesterday here.
> 
> And I don't think teacher's jobs are as great as what you're saying-there's TONS of openings here (especially in English and Science classes). If being a teacher was so appealing-there wouldn't be a lot openings.
> 
> And you haven't really addressed (at least in the posts I've seen-I haven't read the whole thread), the fact that teachers have papers/tests to grade, lessons plans to make, many work more than 8 hours a day at the schools, and so on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What other professions have all Weekends Off,Several Weeks of Paid Holiday Time Off,and Summers Off? I never said Teaching was an easy job. Not many jobs are. I'm just saying they do have it pretty good. As far as professions go,they are easily the biggest whiners in the country. Most people have tough jobs. Teachers aren't the only ones who have tough jobs. Their benefits are fantastic and most other American Workers can only dream about such benefits. Try working those 6-Day Work-Weeks and Holidays. Then get back to me on how awful Teachers have it. Time for Teachers to do less complaining and do more Teaching.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No shit......Try working twelve hours a day, busting ass 6 days a week, Xmas day, thanksigiving day, Easter Sunday, for shit pay and no benefits as I did as a line cook trying to make my bones and become a legitimate chef.......Yeah, those teachers sure have it rough alright.
> 
> I never bitched about it. I knew it came with the territory. Knew that, that is what it takes to get where I wanted to be. And I got there, quite successfully.
Click to expand...


You didn't work all those long hours and days to be a chef.  You did it so you could save enough money to start your own restaurant.  How many teachers get to start their own public school?  Some "professions" don't  have a pot of gold for the self made man at the end of the rainbow.  The guys that repair the downed electric lines get great money and benefits also.  They are all in unions.  They also will not be starting their own power grid.  That is why the unions fight for upfront guarantees.  You whiners that don't like the contracts that get signed by municipalities have a chance to weigh in THEN.  Now is not the time.  Honor the contracts and pay the fucking money!


----------



## saveliberty

Wisconsin seems to be dropping the hammer on teachers as of Friday.  The unemployment line will be longer.


----------



## Foxfyre

HUGGY said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> What other professions have all Weekends Off,Several Weeks of Paid Holiday Time Off,and Summers Off? I never said Teaching was an easy job. Not many jobs are. I'm just saying they do have it pretty good. As far as professions go,they are easily the biggest whiners in the country. Most people have tough jobs. Teachers aren't the only ones who have tough jobs. Their benefits are fantastic and most other American Workers can only dream about such benefits. Try working those 6-Day Work-Weeks and Holidays. Then get back to me on how awful Teachers have it. Time for Teachers to do less complaining and do more Teaching.
> 
> 
> 
> No shit......Try working twelve hours a day, busting ass 6 days a week, Xmas day, thanksigiving day, Easter Sunday, for shit pay and no benefits as I did as a line cook trying to make my bones and become a legitimate chef.......Yeah, those teachers sure have it rough alright.
> 
> I never bitched about it. I knew it came with the territory. Knew that, that is what it takes to get where I wanted to be. And I got there, quite successfully.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You didn't work all those long hours and days to be a chef.  You did it so you could save enough money to start your own restaurant.  How many teachers get to start their own public school?  Some "professions" don't  have a pot of gold for the self made man at the end of the rainbow.  The guys that repair the downed electric lines get great money and benefits also.  They are all in unions.  They also will not be starting their own power grid.  That is why the unions fight for upfront guarantees.  You whiners that don't like the contracts that get signed by municipalities have a chance to weigh in THEN.  Now is not the time.  Honor the contracts and pay the fucking money!
Click to expand...


How many people who work in restaurants start their own restaurant?   And how many of those who do actually succeed in that?  Only the ones with great talent, great instincts, great business savvy and the drive to put in the long grueling hours actually succeed at that.

And most teachers don't want the real stress and grueling effort and sacrifice it requires to successfully start and run their own school.

Nevertheless, I have three friends who successfully started and are running their own private schools.   All are faith based but take students of all faiths or no faith.  I have several other friends who intentionally accept lesser compensation and benefits to teach in private schools because of the much more pleasant and less stressful environment and the excellence required of all the staff.

And then there are all the ones who are devoting time, sometimes donated, sometimes for pay, to tutor public or private schooled kids or homeschooled kids and think that is the best avocation in the world.   I do a bit of that myself and it IS one of the best avocations in the world.

A good teacher teaches because he or she is called to teach and loves to teach.  Those in it for the money, benefits, or time off are most likely the ones protesting--rioting in Wisconsin.  And I notice this morning that other union people from all over are joining them this week.


----------



## Wicked Jester

HUGGY said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> What other professions have all Weekends Off,Several Weeks of Paid Holiday Time Off,and Summers Off? I never said Teaching was an easy job. Not many jobs are. I'm just saying they do have it pretty good. As far as professions go,they are easily the biggest whiners in the country. Most people have tough jobs. Teachers aren't the only ones who have tough jobs. Their benefits are fantastic and most other American Workers can only dream about such benefits. Try working those 6-Day Work-Weeks and Holidays. Then get back to me on how awful Teachers have it. Time for Teachers to do less complaining and do more Teaching.
> 
> 
> 
> No shit......Try working twelve hours a day, busting ass 6 days a week, Xmas day, thanksigiving day, Easter Sunday, for shit pay and no benefits as I did as a line cook trying to make my bones and become a legitimate chef.......Yeah, those teachers sure have it rough alright.
> 
> I never bitched about it. I knew it came with the territory. Knew that, that is what it takes to get where I wanted to be. And I got there, quite successfully.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You didn't work all those long hours and days to be a chef.  You did it so you could save enough money to start your own restaurant.  How many teachers get to start their own public school?  Some "professions" don't  have a pot of gold for the self made man at the end of the rainbow.  The guys that repair the downed electric lines get great money and benefits also.  They are all in unions.  They also will not be starting their own power grid.  That is why the unions fight for upfront guarantees.  You whiners that don't like the contracts that get signed by municipalities have a chance to weigh in THEN.  Now is not the time.  Honor the contracts and pay the fucking money!
Click to expand...

Project much there, Huggy?

I didn't get into it with visions of someday opening my own place. I got into it because it was my passion. My vision was to become an eventual executive chef making good money. Owning my own place never really came to mind until after I made executive chef and a golden opportunity dropped in my lap. The wife and I discussed it, Decided that it was worth the major stress and headache of owning our own high end establishment and went for it.


----------



## HUGGY

Wicked Jester said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> No shit......Try working twelve hours a day, busting ass 6 days a week, Xmas day, thanksigiving day, Easter Sunday, for shit pay and no benefits as I did as a line cook trying to make my bones and become a legitimate chef.......Yeah, those teachers sure have it rough alright.
> 
> I never bitched about it. I knew it came with the territory. Knew that, that is what it takes to get where I wanted to be. And I got there, quite successfully.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You didn't work all those long hours and days to be a chef.  You did it so you could save enough money to start your own restaurant.  How many teachers get to start their own public school?  Some "professions" don't  have a pot of gold for the self made man at the end of the rainbow.  The guys that repair the downed electric lines get great money and benefits also.  They are all in unions.  They also will not be starting their own power grid.  That is why the unions fight for upfront guarantees.  You whiners that don't like the contracts that get signed by municipalities have a chance to weigh in THEN.  Now is not the time.  Honor the contracts and pay the fucking money!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Project much there, Huggy?
> 
> I didn't get into it with visions of someday opening my own place. I got into it because it was my passion. My vision was to become an eventual executive making good money. Owning my own place never really came to mind until after I made executive chef and a golden opportunity dropped in my lap. The wife and I discussed it, Decided that it was worth the major stress and headache of owning our own high end establishment and went for it.
Click to expand...


My point is and was that now is not the time to bitch about union contracts.  The time is when they are being negotiated.  They must be honored.


----------



## LibocalypseNow

bodecea said:


> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JamesInFlorida said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not teachers in my county.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers had a paid day off in my area. Most other American Workers had to show up for work on President's Day.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The students had time off....and the post office, and all government offices and the banks around here had the day off....
> 
> 
> But....let's point fingers at the teachers and blame their union....kkay?
Click to expand...


Students had time off but their parents likely did not. Most American Workers had to show up on President's Day. That's all i'm pointing out. Teachers enjoy very nice benefits. Teachers do have a tough job but so do most other American Workers. None complain nearly as much as Teachers though.


----------



## Foxfyre

HUGGY said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> You didn't work all those long hours and days to be a chef.  You did it so you could save enough money to start your own restaurant.  How many teachers get to start their own public school?  Some "professions" don't  have a pot of gold for the self made man at the end of the rainbow.  The guys that repair the downed electric lines get great money and benefits also.  They are all in unions.  They also will not be starting their own power grid.  That is why the unions fight for upfront guarantees.  You whiners that don't like the contracts that get signed by municipalities have a chance to weigh in THEN.  Now is not the time.  Honor the contracts and pay the fucking money!
> 
> 
> 
> Project much there, Huggy?
> 
> I didn't get into it with visions of someday opening my own place. I got into it because it was my passion. My vision was to become an eventual executive making good money. Owning my own place never really came to mind until after I made executive chef and a golden opportunity dropped in my lap. The wife and I discussed it, Decided that it was worth the major stress and headache of owning our own high end establishment and went for it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My point is and was that now is not the time to bitch about union contracts.  The time is when they are being negotiated.  They must be honored.
Click to expand...


As previously posted, they were negotiated by those who knew they wouldn't be around to suffer the consequences of the negotiations.  Just as the federal government is doing now, they were promising people the sun, moon, and stars with the bills pushed on down the road for somebody else to deal with.

Well the time has come to pay that piper in Wisconsin.  The government is strapped for cash and they have a governor who isn't willing to solve the problem by pushing it on down the road to somebody else.  They're at the end of their rope.  When there is no more money to honor the contract and no legal option to declare bankruptcy, it is time for the union to be willing to negotiate or else suffer massive layoffs and denial of essential services to many people.

Years ago, Mr. Foxfyre was a branch manager when the company announced a most attractive bonus for those managers who could achieve a specific goal.  We were young parents and struggling to make ends meet and this was an amazing windfall for us and we could just taste how sweet it was going to be.  Mr. Foxfyre achieved the goal.  Unfortunately, so did most of the other managers.  The company was not expecting that and found that it could not pay all those bonuses and still meet the payroll and other essential costs.  So it sent out a memo that the bonus would not be paid.

Bitterly disappointed and frustrated?  Of course we were.  But we still had a job paying a living wage and that was better than getting that bonus.

If Wisconsin has no money to pay the contracts, then the contracts need to be renegotiated.  And since the unions refuse to be practical and sensible about that, the unions need to be busted and everybody start over.


----------



## Wicked Jester

HUGGY said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> You didn't work all those long hours and days to be a chef.  You did it so you could save enough money to start your own restaurant.  How many teachers get to start their own public school?  Some "professions" don't  have a pot of gold for the self made man at the end of the rainbow.  The guys that repair the downed electric lines get great money and benefits also.  They are all in unions.  They also will not be starting their own power grid.  That is why the unions fight for upfront guarantees.  You whiners that don't like the contracts that get signed by municipalities have a chance to weigh in THEN.  Now is not the time.  Honor the contracts and pay the fucking money!
> 
> 
> 
> Project much there, Huggy?
> 
> I didn't get into it with visions of someday opening my own place. I got into it because it was my passion. My vision was to become an eventual executive chef making good money. Owning my own place never really came to mind until after I made executive chef and a golden opportunity dropped in my lap. The wife and I discussed it, Decided that it was worth the major stress and headache of owning our own high end establishment and went for it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My point is and was that now is not the time to bitch about union contracts.  The time is when they are being negotiated.  They must be honored.
Click to expand...

When a state goes broke, in part due to unsusatinable union contracts, sacrifices have to be made.......That's the way it works in the private sector, and the public sector has to work that way too.

I'll give you a good example. My aunt and uncle own a machine shop in Chicago. 15 employees who have been there for many years. They pay them well and offer good benefits. The economy is crushing them. And the recent tax that was placed on them by the state was like a hammer being slammed on their heads. Before the tax, to avoid layoffs, they decided to go to a 4 day work week to help cut costs. After the tax, they are now down to a three day work week in a desperate attempt to keep their employees at least getting some kind of pay, and to continue offering them benefits. Those employees have a choice, either go along with the very necessary cut in hours and still keeping their benefits, or beat feet.

Public sector employees, too include teachers, are no better than anybody else. Either they go with what's proposed or be laid off. It's as simple as that.


----------



## JamesInFlorida

Wicked Jester said:


> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JamesInFlorida said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure many teachers got off-but as I said school was in session yesterday here.
> 
> And I don't think teacher's jobs are as great as what you're saying-there's TONS of openings here (especially in English and Science classes). If being a teacher was so appealing-there wouldn't be a lot openings.
> 
> And you haven't really addressed (at least in the posts I've seen-I haven't read the whole thread), the fact that teachers have papers/tests to grade, lessons plans to make, many work more than 8 hours a day at the schools, and so on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What other professions have all Weekends Off,Several Weeks of Paid Holiday Time Off,and Summers Off? I never said Teaching was an easy job. Not many jobs are. I'm just saying they do have it pretty good. As far as professions go,they are easily the biggest whiners in the country. Most people have tough jobs. Teachers aren't the only ones who have tough jobs. Their benefits are fantastic and most other American Workers can only dream about such benefits. Try working those 6-Day Work-Weeks and Holidays. Then get back to me on how awful Teachers have it. Time for Teachers to do less complaining and do more Teaching.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No shit......Try working twelve hours a day, busting ass 6 days a week, Xmas day, thanksigiving day, Easter Sunday, for shit pay and no benefits as I did as a line cook trying to make my bones and become a legitimate chef.......Yeah, those teachers sure have it rough alright.
> 
> I never bitched about it. I knew it came with the territory. Knew that, that is what it takes to get where I wanted to be. And I got there, quite successfully.
Click to expand...


I've worked in a warehouse here in Florida (including summers), with no AC-I had to keep the doors open of the warehouse to cool down the warehouse. In there from 7am-5pm. Lifitng heavy boxes/equipment all day long, with just 1 30 min break for lunch. All for barely above minimum wage-never complained one time. 

Having just gotten my license to teach here, and knowing many teachers-I'm telling you teachers do more than just when they're at school. They do so much more-and to ignore that, doesn't make it go away. I'm not complaining about going to be a teacher-I'm just saying it's not a rosey as what you and others in this thread seem to think. 

I'm sure you've worked hard in the past-but you're not the only person. I know very well what hard work is.


----------



## chanel

My OT consists of worrying about kids who are depressed/suicidal/pregnant/hungry or have a bullet lodged in their skull.  But I'm sure everyone brings that stuff home too.


----------



## LibocalypseNow

JamesInFlorida said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> What other professions have all Weekends Off,Several Weeks of Paid Holiday Time Off,and Summers Off? I never said Teaching was an easy job. Not many jobs are. I'm just saying they do have it pretty good. As far as professions go,they are easily the biggest whiners in the country. Most people have tough jobs. Teachers aren't the only ones who have tough jobs. Their benefits are fantastic and most other American Workers can only dream about such benefits. Try working those 6-Day Work-Weeks and Holidays. Then get back to me on how awful Teachers have it. Time for Teachers to do less complaining and do more Teaching.
> 
> 
> 
> No shit......Try working twelve hours a day, busting ass 6 days a week, Xmas day, thanksigiving day, Easter Sunday, for shit pay and no benefits as I did as a line cook trying to make my bones and become a legitimate chef.......Yeah, those teachers sure have it rough alright.
> 
> I never bitched about it. I knew it came with the territory. Knew that, that is what it takes to get where I wanted to be. And I got there, quite successfully.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I've worked in a warehouse here in Florida (including summers), with no AC-I had to keep the doors open of the warehouse to cool down the warehouse. In there from 7am-5pm. Lifitng heavy boxes/equipment all day long, with just 1 30 min break for lunch. All for barely above minimum wage-never complained one time.
> 
> Having just gotten my license to teach here, and knowing many teachers-I'm telling you teachers do more than just when they're at school. They do so much more-and to ignore that, doesn't make it go away. I'm not complaining about going to be a teacher-I'm just saying it's not a rosey as what you and others in this thread seem to think.
> 
> I'm sure you've worked hard in the past-but you're not the only person. I know very well what hard work is.
Click to expand...


You should probably read posts more thoroughly before replying. Teachers do have a tough job but so do most other American Workers. But most other American Workers don't enjoy All Weekends Off,Several Weeks of paid Holiday Time off,and entire Summers off. So it is acknowledged that Teachers do have a tough job but they also enjoy benefits no other American Workers enjoy. It would be nice if more Teachers would acknowledge they don't have it so bad once and awhile. All we seem to hear from them is whining & complaining. Teachers need a reality-check. They need to look around this nation and see how most American Workers work to survive. They just need perspective because clearly they lost that a long time ago. Time for less complaining and more teaching. Get back to work. The kids need you.


----------



## bodecea

chanel said:


> My OT consists of worrying about kids who are depressed/suicidal/pregnant/hungry or have a bullet lodged in their skull.  But I'm sure everyone brings that stuff home too.



Sad to say...those kids you worry about may very well be the product of such people who denigrate teachers the most around here and elsewhere.


----------



## Wicked Jester

JamesInFlorida said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> What other professions have all Weekends Off,Several Weeks of Paid Holiday Time Off,and Summers Off? I never said Teaching was an easy job. Not many jobs are. I'm just saying they do have it pretty good. As far as professions go,they are easily the biggest whiners in the country. Most people have tough jobs. Teachers aren't the only ones who have tough jobs. Their benefits are fantastic and most other American Workers can only dream about such benefits. Try working those 6-Day Work-Weeks and Holidays. Then get back to me on how awful Teachers have it. Time for Teachers to do less complaining and do more Teaching.
> 
> 
> 
> No shit......Try working twelve hours a day, busting ass 6 days a week, Xmas day, thanksigiving day, Easter Sunday, for shit pay and no benefits as I did as a line cook trying to make my bones and become a legitimate chef.......Yeah, those teachers sure have it rough alright.
> 
> I never bitched about it. I knew it came with the territory. Knew that, that is what it takes to get where I wanted to be. And I got there, quite successfully.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I've worked in a warehouse here in Florida (including summers), with no AC-I had to keep the doors open of the warehouse to cool down the warehouse. In there from 7am-5pm. Lifitng heavy boxes/equipment all day long, with just 1 30 min break for lunch. All for barely above minimum wage-never complained one time.
> 
> Having just gotten my license to teach here, and knowing many teachers-I'm telling you teachers do more than just when they're at school. They do so much more-and to ignore that, doesn't make it go away. I'm not complaining about going to be a teacher-I'm just saying it's not a rosey as what you and others in this thread seem to think.
> 
> I'm sure you've worked hard in the past-but you're not the only person. I know very well what hard work is.
Click to expand...

The whole point of it all is, these teachers and their unions are acting like they've got it so rough over everbody else. Like they shouldn't have to sacrifice like everybody else is having to do these days. They're not special......I'm not saying they don't work hard,because they do. They also enjoy top notch benefits and pensions on top of good pay. And yes, time off that most people in the private sector would love to have.

Ya see, that's what cracks me up about their supporters. They immediately go to the, "oh my god they're attacking teachers. THEY DON'T RESPECT THE TEACHERS! Oh my god they're such evil people. HOW DARE THEY EXPECT THE ALL HOLY TEACHERS TO MAKE SACRIFICES".........It's just so predictable. And a tried and true tactic of liberals who think they're somehow special.


----------



## chanel

How many teachers do you speak to? I work with a 1OO and the only thing they complain about is discipline. So would any normal person in the same position. I think you are making stuff up to further demonize the teachers. Shame on you.


----------



## Wicked Jester

bodecea said:


> chanel said:
> 
> 
> 
> My OT consists of worrying about kids who are depressed/suicidal/pregnant/hungry or have a bullet lodged in their skull.  But I'm sure everyone brings that stuff home too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sad to say...those kids you worry about may very well be the product of such people who denigrate teachers the most around here and elsewhere.
Click to expand...

Seriously, just shut up already.....You're such a far left liberal whackjob it's laughable.


----------



## JamesInFlorida

LibocalypseNow said:


> JamesInFlorida said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> No shit......Try working twelve hours a day, busting ass 6 days a week, Xmas day, thanksigiving day, Easter Sunday, for shit pay and no benefits as I did as a line cook trying to make my bones and become a legitimate chef.......Yeah, those teachers sure have it rough alright.
> 
> I never bitched about it. I knew it came with the territory. Knew that, that is what it takes to get where I wanted to be. And I got there, quite successfully.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've worked in a warehouse here in Florida (including summers), with no AC-I had to keep the doors open of the warehouse to cool down the warehouse. In there from 7am-5pm. Lifitng heavy boxes/equipment all day long, with just 1 30 min break for lunch. All for barely above minimum wage-never complained one time.
> 
> Having just gotten my license to teach here, and knowing many teachers-I'm telling you teachers do more than just when they're at school. They do so much more-and to ignore that, doesn't make it go away. I'm not complaining about going to be a teacher-I'm just saying it's not a rosey as what you and others in this thread seem to think.
> 
> I'm sure you've worked hard in the past-but you're not the only person. I know very well what hard work is.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You should probably read posts more thoroughly before replying. Teachers do have a tough job but so do most other American Workers. But most other American Workers don't enjoy All Weekends Off,Several Weeks of paid Holiday Time off,and entire Summers off. So it is acknowledged that Teachers do have a tough job but they also enjoy benefits no other American Workers enjoy. It would be nice if more Teachers would acknowledge they don't have it so bad once and awhile. All we seem to hear from them is whining & complaining. Teachers need a reality-check. They need to look around this nation and see how most American Workers work to survive. They just need perspective because clearly they lost that a long time ago. Time for less complaining and more teaching. Get back to work. The kids need you.
Click to expand...


The average college graduate makes more money than teachers-that's a nice benefit they have over teachers is it not? 

Why don't politicians start with themselves? They get paid vacations, tons of time off-way more than the average American, weekends off, and get paid much more.

When you take away benefits of being a teacher away-you're going to get worse and worse people in teaching positions. And regardless of what many say-education is still the best way to get ahead in this country. Don't believe me-look at what kind of education of the presidents in the past 50-60 years, CEOs around the nation, highest paying jobs-the overwhelming majority of them got a good education. It's not overrated by them.

Hell even Ron Paul (who believe it or not I'm a fan of), went to public school growing up, and eventually went to Duke (private in all fairness) and got his M.D. Do you honestly think he would be where he is today without getting a good education? No way.

My point is the most influential, and successful people (monetarily) have good educations-where teachers are a vital asset to. The more you take away from teachers-the more good teachers leave (and more importantly would be good teachers never become one), and the worse our education system gets.


----------



## JamesInFlorida

Wicked Jester said:


> JamesInFlorida said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> No shit......Try working twelve hours a day, busting ass 6 days a week, Xmas day, thanksigiving day, Easter Sunday, for shit pay and no benefits as I did as a line cook trying to make my bones and become a legitimate chef.......Yeah, those teachers sure have it rough alright.
> 
> I never bitched about it. I knew it came with the territory. Knew that, that is what it takes to get where I wanted to be. And I got there, quite successfully.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've worked in a warehouse here in Florida (including summers), with no AC-I had to keep the doors open of the warehouse to cool down the warehouse. In there from 7am-5pm. Lifitng heavy boxes/equipment all day long, with just 1 30 min break for lunch. All for barely above minimum wage-never complained one time.
> 
> Having just gotten my license to teach here, and knowing many teachers-I'm telling you teachers do more than just when they're at school. They do so much more-and to ignore that, doesn't make it go away. I'm not complaining about going to be a teacher-I'm just saying it's not a rosey as what you and others in this thread seem to think.
> 
> I'm sure you've worked hard in the past-but you're not the only person. I know very well what hard work is.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The whole point of it all is, these teachers and their unions are acting like they've got it so rough over everbody else. Like they shouldn't have to sacrifice like everybody else is having to do these days. They're not special......I'm not saying they don't work hard,because they do. They also enjoy top notch benefits and pensions on top of good pay. And yes, time off that most people in the private sector would love to have.
> 
> Ya see, that's what cracks me up about their supporters. They immediately go to the, "oh my god they're attacking teachers. THEY DON'T RESPECT THE TEACHERS! Oh my god they're such evil people. HOW DARE THEY EXPECT THE ALL HOLY TEACHERS TO MAKE SACRIFICES".........It's just so predictable. And a tried and true tactic of liberals who think they're somehow special.
Click to expand...


I agree with what you're saying-but here's the problem. Teachers have great influence on our country as a whole, and are a BIG instrument in shaping up our future. Our education system is what drives this country forward, and as a society as whole-by educating the citizens. The private sector doesn't do this (and shouldn't have to btw). That's the difference.

You can't compare the work and importance that teachers have on this country and society as a whole to the average American worker.

edit: and there are plenty of other areas to cut before teacher salaries-I think that's what the big deal is.


----------



## LibocalypseNow

Teachers need to escape their bubbles of non-reality. They need to gain perspective. They need to get out and see how most American Workers have it in the real world. I do blame the greedy Teacher Unions for teachers losing their perspective. Everyone in America would like to make more money. Teachers aren't unique in that desire. But they do enjoy some pretty nice benefits and it would be nice to see more of them acknowledging this once and awhile. All we ever see is teachers whining & bitchin about how awful they have it. Well guess what? Many other American Workers actually have it much worse. Seriously,it's true. 

So the next time you Teachers are kicking back enjoying your several weeks off for the Thanksgiving,Christmas,and New Year Holidays,just remember that most other American Workers are still at work busting their asses. In fact most are just very grateful if they can get a Thanksgiving,Christmas,or New Years Day off. Many have to work those days. Are their families any less important than yours? Don't you think they would like to be with their families for the Holidays? Teachers just need to escape their bubbles of non-reality. They're behaving like spoiled brats. More people lose respect for them every time they hear them complain. Maybe they should change their approach and outlook on things. Do they really have it so bad?


----------



## Foxfyre

JamesInFlorida said:


> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JamesInFlorida said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've worked in a warehouse here in Florida (including summers), with no AC-I had to keep the doors open of the warehouse to cool down the warehouse. In there from 7am-5pm. Lifitng heavy boxes/equipment all day long, with just 1 30 min break for lunch. All for barely above minimum wage-never complained one time.
> 
> Having just gotten my license to teach here, and knowing many teachers-I'm telling you teachers do more than just when they're at school. They do so much more-and to ignore that, doesn't make it go away. I'm not complaining about going to be a teacher-I'm just saying it's not a rosey as what you and others in this thread seem to think.
> 
> I'm sure you've worked hard in the past-but you're not the only person. I know very well what hard work is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You should probably read posts more thoroughly before replying. Teachers do have a tough job but so do most other American Workers. But most other American Workers don't enjoy All Weekends Off,Several Weeks of paid Holiday Time off,and entire Summers off. So it is acknowledged that Teachers do have a tough job but they also enjoy benefits no other American Workers enjoy. It would be nice if more Teachers would acknowledge they don't have it so bad once and awhile. All we seem to hear from them is whining & complaining. Teachers need a reality-check. They need to look around this nation and see how most American Workers work to survive. They just need perspective because clearly they lost that a long time ago. Time for less complaining and more teaching. Get back to work. The kids need you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The average college graduate makes more money than teachers-that's a nice benefit they have over teachers is it not?
> 
> Why don't politicians start with themselves? They get paid vacations, tons of time off-way more than the average American, weekends off, and get paid much more.
> 
> When you take away benefits of being a teacher away-you're going to get worse and worse people in teaching positions. And regardless of what many say-education is still the best way to get ahead in this country. Don't believe me-look at what kind of education of the presidents in the past 50-60 years, CEOs around the nation, highest paying jobs-the overwhelming majority of them got a good education. It's not overrated by them.
> 
> Hell even Ron Paul (who believe it or not I'm a fan of), went to public school growing up, and eventually went to Duke (private in all fairness) and got his M.D. Do you honestly think he would be where he is today without getting a good education? No way.
> 
> My point is the most influential, and successful people (monetarily) have good educations-where teachers are a vital asset to. The more you take away from teachers-the more good teachers leave (and more importantly would be good teachers never become one), and the worse our education system gets.
Click to expand...


I know quite a few folks who went into teaching so that they could be home with their kids over the summer, winter break, spring break etc.  or have big blocks of time to travel or engage in other activities.  How many of us can get a deal like that in other professions?

I don't begrudge teacher a decent living wage or the other benefits, but I do resent it when teachers adopt a sense of entitlement that they somehow deserve more than other essential occupations deserve and the taxpayer should come up with whatever they want.

That is not bashing teachers.  That is making an argument for the need to negotiate reasonable contracts no matter what profession a person adopts.   If the employer cannot pay more, then you accept what you can get or you find another position where the employer can pay more.  Or go into business for yourself.

That's how the free market system is supposed to work.  And did until the unions decided market rules didn't apply in their case.

So, your point would be well taken if the kids were getting better educations with the rise of the unions negotiating better and better compensation packages including benefits and pension plans a lot of us would die for.   They aren't.  The USA has fallen way behind almost all other industrialized countries in the quality and content of the education the kids are getting.

It's time to come up with a better system even if that better system is going back to the way we once did education and the USA was a shining star in the quality and content of the education the kids got.


----------



## chanel

You are being dishonest. No one complains about vacation and benefits. Few complain about the workload.  But they do complain about the lack of respect. For years, it's been from the students. For weeks, it's coming from the adults. I shudder to think how this will further empower the kids to tell their teachers to "go fuck" themselves. Not looking forward to it fer sure.


----------



## LibocalypseNow

chanel said:


> You are being dishonest. No one complains about vacation and benefits. Few complain about the workload.  But they do complain about the lack of respect. For years, it's been from the students. For weeks, it's coming from the adults. I shudder to think how this will further empower the kids to tell their teachers to "go fuck" themselves. Not looking forward to it fer sure.



Why would they complain about vacation benefits? I didn't think they would. They it got pretty good there. They could acknowledge how great those benefits are once and awhile though. The problem for Teachers is that all they're known for now is their constant whining & complaining. They rarely discuss the positives of their job. I have laid out several fantastic positives of their job. If Teachers want to ignore that than so be it. I'll just say one more time,most American Workers have it much worse out there in the real word. Teachers need a new approach and perspective. The corrupt Teacher Unions have indoctrinated them with all this negativity and sense of entitlement. They should get out into the real world and gain a more realistic perspective on things. That might just help them quite a bit in their jobs. It's all about perspective in the end.


----------



## Wicked Jester

JamesInFlorida said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JamesInFlorida said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've worked in a warehouse here in Florida (including summers), with no AC-I had to keep the doors open of the warehouse to cool down the warehouse. In there from 7am-5pm. Lifitng heavy boxes/equipment all day long, with just 1 30 min break for lunch. All for barely above minimum wage-never complained one time.
> 
> Having just gotten my license to teach here, and knowing many teachers-I'm telling you teachers do more than just when they're at school. They do so much more-and to ignore that, doesn't make it go away. I'm not complaining about going to be a teacher-I'm just saying it's not a rosey as what you and others in this thread seem to think.
> 
> I'm sure you've worked hard in the past-but you're not the only person. I know very well what hard work is.
> 
> 
> 
> The whole point of it all is, these teachers and their unions are acting like they've got it so rough over everbody else. Like they shouldn't have to sacrifice like everybody else is having to do these days. They're not special......I'm not saying they don't work hard,because they do. They also enjoy top notch benefits and pensions on top of good pay. And yes, time off that most people in the private sector would love to have.
> 
> Ya see, that's what cracks me up about their supporters. They immediately go to the, "oh my god they're attacking teachers. THEY DON'T RESPECT THE TEACHERS! Oh my god they're such evil people. HOW DARE THEY EXPECT THE ALL HOLY TEACHERS TO MAKE SACRIFICES".........It's just so predictable. And a tried and true tactic of liberals who think they're somehow special.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree with what you're saying-but here's the problem. Teachers have great influence on our country as a whole, and are a BIG instrument in shaping up our future. Our education system is what drives this country forward, and as a society as whole-by educating the citizens. The private sector doesn't do this (and shouldn't have to btw). That's the difference.
> 
> You can't compare the work and importance that teachers have on this country and society as a whole to the average American worker.
> 
> edit: and there are plenty of other areas to cut before teacher salaries-I think that's what the big deal is.
Click to expand...

I've never said that teachers aren't an integral part in shaping our country. I'm saying that they too must voluntarily bite the bullet just like everybody else.

I have a real problem with:

1) Those teachers abandonong their classrooms and students, thereby denying those students their given RIGHT to an education. It throws their ridiculous claim that they are "doing it for the children" bs right out the proverbial window.....They want to protest, fine. They can protest on their own damn time, just like the police and firefighters have to do......I believe that there is a law on the books that prohibits the teachers from abandoning the classrooms that is in line with laws regarding public safety officers.

2) Causing undo hardship, particularly financially, to parents who have to rearrange their schedules to include taking time off work at a LOSS OF PAY to ensure their children are being taken care of and not out running amok, and are safe.......Imagine what that loss of pay does to a one income single parent or family who is already struggling to make ends meet as it is. Are those teachers concerned about that?.....Obviously not.

3) These teachers accepting fraudulent doctors notes to ensure THEY GET PAID. That's a friggin' crime. And charges should be brought against all who engaged in said crime. To include those dirtbag doctors who were handing out those notes.

Those teachers who did any of the above deserve no respect. They deserve the maximum discipline. It has nothing to do with their teaching abilities. Good teacher or not, what they are doing is abjectly wrong on so many levels......And the ones who are negatively affected by it are the students and their parents.......It's just WRONG!

Those teachers who did not abandon their classrooms, and elected to protest on their own time or let the union handle it, are the ones who most definitely deserve to be praised.....They are obvioulsy in it for the love of their profession and the children. They obviously understand what it's all about......And I guarantee, it's those types of teachers who are the biggest benefit to this countries children and future.


----------



## Foxfyre

chanel said:


> You are being dishonest. No one complains about vacation and benefits. Few complain about the workload.  But they do complain about the lack of respect. For years, it's been from the students. For weeks, it's coming from the adults. I shudder to think how this will further empower the kids to tell their teachers to "go fuck" themselves. Not looking forward to it fer sure.



This is precisely why many teachers will accept less compensation and fewer benefits to teach in a private school where a different kind of discipline is enforced and teachers do command and get respect.  Not because they're teachers.  But because they are good teachers, dressing and behaving professionally, and teaching real subject matter effectively and the kids are expected to learn what the teacher teaches.

There are a few educators in public school systems who understand such concepts.  Sadly, there are far too many school systems out there in which they don't.


----------



## LibocalypseNow

It really is all about perspective in the end. Most Teachers just don't have a proper perspective anymore. The corrupt Teacher Unions have created this cocoon of non-reality for Teachers. They really don't have any clue how good they have it or how tough things really are for most other American Workers. They've been told for years that they have it so terrible and that no one cares about them. That's just a corrupt Union ploy though. They don't want their members to stop and realize how good they have it. They have to keep them victims who will always have that sense of entitlement. 

You try and point out all the great aspects of their jobs and they quickly brush it aside and begin complaining about how awful everything is. This is a common behavioral trait for most Teachers. And that's why so many people no longer have any sympathy for them. They see all the Weekends off,Several Weeks of paid Holiday time off,and entire Summers off. They then look at their own job and can't understand what all the endless whining is about. Teachers need to bust out of their non-reality cocoons and get some real perspective on things. I think this would really help them. Just stop with all the negativity and entitlement stuff. People have had enough.


----------



## chanel

Victims? Now you are really grasping at straws. Here's a reality check. I am a member of the NJEA - a somewhat reluctant one because our dues are outrageous. But consider this contract negotiations 101. Every 3 years, teacher volunteers renegotiate our contracts. The Bd of Ed holds the purse strings - the teachers are the beggars. Even during good times (remember the Bush years) the standard line is "bare bones budget" They ask for concessions, we ask for raises. Then they meet in the middle and shake hands. Without the other party (union) concessions will be forced, year after year with no mediator to stop it. That's why everyone is nervous. This is only the beginning.


----------



## LibocalypseNow

chanel said:


> Victims? Now you are really grasping at straws. Here's a reality check. I am a member of the NJEA - a somewhat reluctant one because our dues are outrageous. But consider this contract negotiations 101. Every 3 years, teacher volunteers renegotiate our contracts. The Bd of Ed holds the purse strings - the teachers are the beggars. Even during good times (remember the Bush years) the standard line is "bare bones budget" They ask for concessions, we ask for raises. Then they meet in the middle and shake hands. Without the other party (union) concessions will be forced, year after year with no mediator to stop it. That's why everyone is nervous. This is only the beginning.



Well there you go. We try and point out the fantastic positives of your job and you quickly brush it aside and head into Victim-Mode. That really is a common behavioral trait with most Teachers. And that's why more & more people no longer have sympathy for them. I don't blame you though. I blame the corrupt Teacher Unions for creating your bitterness and sense of entitlement. You really don't have it so bad though. Try talking about the positives in your job once and awhile. God knows we've tried to.


----------



## chanel

Victim mode? Just stating the facts sir. WI is only the beginning OH is next.


----------



## LibocalypseNow

chanel said:


> Victim mode? Just stating the facts sir. WI is only the beginning OH is next.



No offense but continuing this discussion with you is pointless. The Teacher Union has created your bitterness and sense of entitlement. So your mind will never be changed. You are permanently stuck in Victim-Mode. Most Teachers are unfortunately. That's why they continue to lose the support of the People. Average American Workers see all the wonderful perks Teachers enjoy and just don't get all the constant whining. Teachers do have a tough job but so do most others. Teachers seem to do the most complaining though. I don't think i've ever come across a Teacher who actually talked about the positives in their job. It's always negative whining. It's their mindset. But hey,i enjoyed conversing with you. We're just not gonna get anywhere. You'll always be a victim and there's nothing i can do to change your mind on that. Thanks for your replies.


----------



## chanel

The only bitterness I feel right now is being unfairly attacked for my chosen profession.  In my family, my community, and my circle of friends, teachers are highly respected.  Not so much on this board. Oh well.  At least I get my summers off.


----------



## Wicked Jester

chanel said:


> The only bitterness I feel right now is being unfairly attacked for my chosen profession.  In my family, my community, and my circle of friends, teachers are highly respected.  Not so much on this board. Oh well.  At least I get my summers off.


Typical liberal nonsense......As usual, the victim card gets thrust forward.

That shit isn't working anymore.


----------



## Samson

Flopper said:


> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Most people respect Teachers. They just don't respect the greedy political activist Teacher Unions. Personally,i do respect Teachers but i also think they complain too much. They receive some pretty nice benefits compared to many other professions in this country. Try working 6-Day Work-Weeks and Holidays. For example,most American Workers didn't have a paid day off today for President's Day. Most had to show up for work today. Many American Workers have it rough but none whine more than Teachers. They should stop all the complaining and focus more on helping the kids. If you're in it to get rich,then get the Hell out and go find another line of work. No one likes a whiner. It is what it is.
> 
> 
> 
> I think it's hard to compare teaching with most jobs.  Teaching does have some nice perks, like additional holidays and better than average retirement but there's lot of responsibility.  In households where both parents work, which are most households, many kids spend more time with their teacher than than they do their parents.  In essence, teachers are becoming substitute parents in addition to teaching.
> 
> Getting rid of teacher unions does not fix the problem.   Higher salaries, an improved work environment, higher standards, better training, and opportunities for advance are a good start.
Click to expand...


Opportunities to advance....to what?

Staff Sergeant?


----------



## Samson

chanel said:


> My OT consists of worrying about kids who are depressed/suicidal/pregnant/hungry or have a bullet lodged in their skull.  But I'm sure everyone brings that stuff home too.



You mean you know more than one kid that is depressed/pregnant, and has a bullet lodged in her skull?

...does she wanna "Kill Bill?"


----------



## Samson

chanel said:


> The only bitterness I feel right now is being unfairly attacked for my chosen profession.  In my family, my community, and my circle of friends, teachers are highly respected.  Not so much on this board. Oh well.  At least I get my summers off.



I;ll respect you in the morning,


Better Now?.


----------



## Wicked Jester

Samson said:


> chanel said:
> 
> 
> 
> The only bitterness I feel right now is being unfairly attacked for my chosen profession.  In my family, my community, and my circle of friends, teachers are highly respected.  Not so much on this board. Oh well.  At least I get my summers off.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I;ll respect you in the morning,
> 
> 
> Better Now?.
Click to expand...

LMAO!


----------



## bodecea

Those who can't do...bash teachers.  Somehow it makes them feel a little less inadequate.


----------



## Flopper

Wicked Jester said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Most people respect Teachers. They just don't respect the greedy political activist Teacher Unions. Personally,i do respect Teachers but i also think they complain too much. They receive some pretty nice benefits compared to many other professions in this country. Try working 6-Day Work-Weeks and Holidays. For example,most American Workers didn't have a paid day off today for President's Day. Most had to show up for work today. Many American Workers have it rough but none whine more than Teachers. They should stop all the complaining and focus more on helping the kids. If you're in it to get rich,then get the Hell out and go find another line of work. No one likes a whiner. It is what it is.
> 
> 
> 
> I think it's hard to compare teaching with most jobs.  Teaching does have some nice perks, like additional holidays and better than average retirement but there's lot of responsibility.  In households where both parents work, which are most households, many kids spend more time with their teacher than than they do their parents.  In essence, teachers are becoming substitute parents in addition to teaching.
> 
> Getting rid of teacher unions does not fix the problem.   Higher salaries, an improved work environment, higher standards, better training, and opportunities for advance are a good start.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Fine, lets privatize the system, and go with a performance based pay scale. You can have your union, they just don't bargain for pay. No more collective bargaining.
> 
> How's that for starters?
> 
> And while we're at it, lets install cameras in every damn classroom in the country, where parents can log in and see and hear exactly what's going on in their childrens classrooms.
> 
> My wife and I have that ability through our chidrens private school. It's a great thing.
Click to expand...

In general private schools pick their students.  They bypass special ed kids because the cost of meeting their needs would make tuition too high, so these kids are left to public schools.  Unless the school specializes in handling  problem kids, they too are bypassed.  Kids with limited English capabilities are bypassed.  But the major problem for most parents considering private school is cost.  The average private school tuition for grades K-12 is $8500/yr.  If you have 3 kids, this amount will amount to $306,000 for their education.  There aren't many families that can handle these cost.


----------



## bodecea

Flopper said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think it's hard to compare teaching with most jobs.  Teaching does have some nice perks, like additional holidays and better than average retirement but there's lot of responsibility.  In households where both parents work, which are most households, many kids spend more time with their teacher than than they do their parents.  In essence, teachers are becoming substitute parents in addition to teaching.
> 
> Getting rid of teacher unions does not fix the problem.   Higher salaries, an improved work environment, higher standards, better training, and opportunities for advance are a good start.
> 
> 
> 
> Fine, lets privatize the system, and go with a performance based pay scale. You can have your union, they just don't bargain for pay. No more collective bargaining.
> 
> How's that for starters?
> 
> And while we're at it, lets install cameras in every damn classroom in the country, where parents can log in and see and hear exactly what's going on in their childrens classrooms.
> 
> My wife and I have that ability through our chidrens private school. It's a great thing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In general private schools pick their students.  They bypass special ed kids because the cost of meeting their needs would make tuition too high, so these kids are left to public schools.  Unless the school specializes in handling  problem kids, they too are bypassed.  Kids with limited English capabilities are bypassed.  But the major problem for most parents considering private school is cost.  The average private school tuition for grades K-12 is $8500/yr.  If you have 3 kids, this amount will amount to $306,000 for their education.  There aren't many families that can handle these cost.
Click to expand...


Wicked wants the Mexico system...those who can pay, get decent education for their kids...those who cannot.........well, it's the Mexico system.


----------



## Flopper

Samson said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Most people respect Teachers. They just don't respect the greedy political activist Teacher Unions. Personally,i do respect Teachers but i also think they complain too much. They receive some pretty nice benefits compared to many other professions in this country. Try working 6-Day Work-Weeks and Holidays. For example,most American Workers didn't have a paid day off today for President's Day. Most had to show up for work today. Many American Workers have it rough but none whine more than Teachers. They should stop all the complaining and focus more on helping the kids. If you're in it to get rich,then get the Hell out and go find another line of work. No one likes a whiner. It is what it is.
> 
> 
> 
> I think it's hard to compare teaching with most jobs.  Teaching does have some nice perks, like additional holidays and better than average retirement but there's lot of responsibility.  In households where both parents work, which are most households, many kids spend more time with their teacher than than they do their parents.  In essence, teachers are becoming substitute parents in addition to teaching.
> 
> Getting rid of teacher unions does not fix the problem.   Higher salaries, an improved work environment, higher standards, better training, and opportunities for advance are a good start.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Opportunities to advance....to what?
> 
> Staff Sergeant?
Click to expand...

As it stands now there is no opportunity to advance for most teachers.  Master teacher programs which offer considerably higher pay for the best teachers exist in just a few states.  Department heads are little more that a title with a small stipend.  To stand a change of landing an asst principal job, or a district level position you need at least a Master's Degree and in some districts a Doctorate, all at the teachers expense.  Unlike many companies school districts don't pay tuition for teacher seeking higher degrees.


----------



## Wicked Jester

bodecea said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fine, lets privatize the system, and go with a performance based pay scale. You can have your union, they just don't bargain for pay. No more collective bargaining.
> 
> How's that for starters?
> 
> And while we're at it, lets install cameras in every damn classroom in the country, where parents can log in and see and hear exactly what's going on in their childrens classrooms.
> 
> My wife and I have that ability through our chidrens private school. It's a great thing.
> 
> 
> 
> In general private schools pick their students.  They bypass special ed kids because the cost of meeting their needs would make tuition too high, so these kids are left to public schools.  Unless the school specializes in handling  problem kids, they too are bypassed.  Kids with limited English capabilities are bypassed.  But the major problem for most parents considering private school is cost.  The average private school tuition for grades K-12 is $8500/yr.  If you have 3 kids, this amount will amount to $306,000 for their education.  There aren't many families that can handle these cost.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wicked wants the Mexico system...those who can pay, get decent education for their kids...those who cannot.........well, it's the Mexico system.
Click to expand...

Once again, you're being completely stupid. But don't let that stop ya', Butch. It's what we've come to expect from ya'.

I mean, it's not like you have the ability to debate or anything like that. You're a middle aged woman hooked on GLEE........'nuf said.


----------



## bodecea

Wicked Jester said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> In general private schools pick their students.  They bypass special ed kids because the cost of meeting their needs would make tuition too high, so these kids are left to public schools.  Unless the school specializes in handling  problem kids, they too are bypassed.  Kids with limited English capabilities are bypassed.  But the major problem for most parents considering private school is cost.  The average private school tuition for grades K-12 is $8500/yr.  If you have 3 kids, this amount will amount to $306,000 for their education.  There aren't many families that can handle these cost.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wicked wants the Mexico system...those who can pay, get decent education for their kids...those who cannot.........well, it's the Mexico system.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Once again, you're being completely stupid. But don't let that stop ya', Butch. It's what we've come to expect from ya'.
> 
> I mean, it's not like you have the ability to debate or anything like that. You're a middle aged woman hooked on GLEE........'nuf said.
Click to expand...


You are the kind of person that makes the teachers want raises for what they do.
You are the kind of person who causes teachers to spend more time in classroom discipline than in teaching.
You are the kind of person that skews test scores downward.
You are the kind of person that drives parents to move their children to private schools.


BTW....how much rent do you charge for all that room in your head I seem to be holding?


----------



## Samson

Flopper said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think it's hard to compare teaching with most jobs.  Teaching does have some nice perks, like additional holidays and better than average retirement but there's lot of responsibility.  In households where both parents work, which are most households, many kids spend more time with their teacher than than they do their parents.  In essence, teachers are becoming substitute parents in addition to teaching.
> 
> Getting rid of teacher unions does not fix the problem.   Higher salaries, an improved work environment, higher standards, better training, and opportunities for advance are a good start.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Opportunities to advance....to what?
> 
> Staff Sergeant?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> As it stands now there is no opportunity to advance for most teachers.  Master teacher programs which offer considerably higher pay for the best teachers exist in just a few states.  Department heads are little more that a title with a small stipend.  To stand a change of landing an asst principal job, or a district level position you need at least a Master's Degree and in some districts a Doctorate, all at the teachers expense.  Unlike many companies school districts don't pay tuition for teacher seeking higher degrees.
Click to expand...


True enough about there being no district money for teachers to get their Masters, but then there's no gaurantee the individual would work for the district after they complete their degree...PLUS there is no shortage of Masters of Educational Administration candidates standing in line for Assistant Principal positions REGARDLESS.

What is a "Master Teacher?"...More importantly:do we really need them enough to pay significantly more $$....If they existed, wouldn't they be pretty easy to identify? I mean, you could drop a "Master Teacher" into any classroom full of underachievers, and they'd go from a 30% passing rate to a 90% passing rate?...My guess is that few states have these because TEACHERS Unions discourage them.


----------



## Wicked Jester

bodecea said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wicked wants the Mexico system...those who can pay, get decent education for their kids...those who cannot.........well, it's the Mexico system.
> 
> 
> 
> Once again, you're being completely stupid. But don't let that stop ya', Butch. It's what we've come to expect from ya'.
> 
> I mean, it's not like you have the ability to debate or anything like that. You're a middle aged woman hooked on GLEE........'nuf said.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are the kind of person that makes the teachers want raises for what they do.
> You are the kind of person who causes teachers to spend more time in classroom discipline than in teaching.
> You are the kind of person that skews test scores downward.
> You are the kind of person that drives parents to move their children to private schools.
> 
> 
> BTW....how much rent do you charge for all that room in your head I seem to be holding?
Click to expand...

Blah blah blah, yada yada yada.

Christ, you wake up in the morning and you're already a blabbering idiot.

Next time you decide to stick your nose into an issue, at least know what the hell you're talking about.......It might make you look a lil' less like the blabbering idiot we ALL know you to be.

Still don't have the guts to admit that you were being completely dishonest (that lil' pattern of yours) when you tried to claim the governor was trying to take those pooooooor wittle teachers pay?

Yeah, I didn't think so..........................


----------



## Foxfyre

Samson said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Opportunities to advance....to what?
> 
> Staff Sergeant?
> 
> 
> 
> As it stands now there is no opportunity to advance for most teachers.  Master teacher programs which offer considerably higher pay for the best teachers exist in just a few states.  Department heads are little more that a title with a small stipend.  To stand a change of landing an asst principal job, or a district level position you need at least a Master's Degree and in some districts a Doctorate, all at the teachers expense.  Unlike many companies school districts don't pay tuition for teacher seeking higher degrees.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> True enough about there being no district money for teachers to get their Masters, but then there's no gaurantee the individual would work for the district after they complete their degree...PLUS there is no shortage of Masters of Educational Administration candidates standing in line for Assistant Principal positions REGARDLESS.
> 
> What is a "Master Teacher?"...More importantly:do we really need them enough to pay significantly more $$....If they existed, wouldn't they be pretty easy to identify? I mean, you could drop a "Master Teacher" into any classroom full of underachievers, and they'd go from a 30% passing rate to a 90% passing rate?...My guess is that few states have these because TEACHERS Unions discourage them.
Click to expand...


Not only that, but very few industries pay for their employees' education.  Nobody paid me for mine though certain levels of education were a requirement for numerous positions I have had.  Why should teachers' be any different?

Also there is very little room at the top in just about everything.  There are only so many coaching positions in the NFL and all players will not aspire to or be qualified for those positions.  There are only so many supervisory jobs, so many vice president positions, so many CEO jobs out there.   We always hope the cream will rise to the top to be the CEOs and supervisors and principals and superintendents, and not all will qualify and not all who do qualify will want those kinds of jobs.

A republic that protects the unalienable rights of the people and respects human rights gives all who have the drive and ambition and ability to achieve whatever their hearts desire.  But while it allows for the most free people on Earth, it does not provide all we want.  And what we want in the way of wages, benefits, hours, and working conditions doesn't fall within the scope of unalienable rights.  Sometimes its necessary to choose what sacrifices we are willing to make and what effort we are willing to put out to get what we want.


----------



## bodecea

Wicked Jester said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> Once again, you're being completely stupid. But don't let that stop ya', Butch. It's what we've come to expect from ya'.
> 
> I mean, it's not like you have the ability to debate or anything like that. You're a middle aged woman hooked on GLEE........'nuf said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are the kind of person that makes the teachers want raises for what they do.
> You are the kind of person who causes teachers to spend more time in classroom discipline than in teaching.
> You are the kind of person that skews test scores downward.
> You are the kind of person that drives parents to move their children to private schools.
> 
> 
> BTW....how much rent do you charge for all that room in your head I seem to be holding?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Blah blah blah, yada yada yada.
> 
> Christ, you wake up in the morning and you're already a blabbering idiot.
> 
> Next time you decide to stick your nose into an issue, at least know what the hell you're talking about.......It might make you look a lil' less like the blabbering idiot we ALL know you to be.
> 
> Still don't have the guts to admit that you were being completely dishonest (that lil' pattern of yours) when you tried to claim the governor was trying to take those pooooooor wittle teachers pay?
> 
> Yeah, I didn't think so..........................
Click to expand...

Thank you for proving my point in your post....I expect that your teachers were trying hard to pawn you off on each other.


----------



## bodecea

Foxfyre said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> As it stands now there is no opportunity to advance for most teachers.  Master teacher programs which offer considerably higher pay for the best teachers exist in just a few states.  Department heads are little more that a title with a small stipend.  To stand a change of landing an asst principal job, or a district level position you need at least a Master's Degree and in some districts a Doctorate, all at the teachers expense.  Unlike many companies school districts don't pay tuition for teacher seeking higher degrees.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> True enough about there being no district money for teachers to get their Masters, but then there's no gaurantee the individual would work for the district after they complete their degree...PLUS there is no shortage of Masters of Educational Administration candidates standing in line for Assistant Principal positions REGARDLESS.
> 
> What is a "Master Teacher?"...More importantly:do we really need them enough to pay significantly more $$....If they existed, wouldn't they be pretty easy to identify? I mean, you could drop a "Master Teacher" into any classroom full of underachievers, and they'd go from a 30% passing rate to a 90% passing rate?...My guess is that few states have these because TEACHERS Unions discourage them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not only that, but very few industries pay for their employees' education.  Nobody paid me for mine though certain levels of education were a requirement for numerous positions I have had.  Why should teachers' be any different?
> 
> Also there is very little room at the top in just about everything.  There are only so many coaching positions in the NFL and all players will not aspire to or be qualified for those positions.  There are only so many supervisory jobs, so many vice president positions, so many CEO jobs out there.   We always hope the cream will rise to the top to be the CEOs and supervisors and principals and superintendents, and not all will qualify and not all who do qualify will want those kinds of jobs.
> 
> A republic that protects the unalienable rights of the people and respects human rights gives all who have the drive and ambition and ability to achieve whatever their hearts desire.  But while it allows for the most free people on Earth, it does not provide all we want.  And what we want in the way of wages, benefits, hours, and working conditions doesn't fall within the scope of unalienable rights.  Sometimes its necessary to choose what sacrifices we are willing to make and what effort we are willing to put out to get what we want.
Click to expand...


Coaches in the NFL get to pick the best of the best for their teams.    Can you imagine if they were required to take ANYONE (including those who don't even want to play football) on their team?   And at the end of the season, they are determined a success or a failure based on the end performance of each player on the team including those who rarely showed up for practice, refused to drill, and sat down on the field in a do-nothing pout when the ball was in play?


----------



## chanel

NO CHILD LEFT BEHINDThe Football Version

1. All teams must make the state playoffs and all MUST win the championship.
If a team does not win the championship, they will be on probation until
they are the champions, and coaches will be held accountable. If after two
years they have not won the championship their footballs and equipment will
be taken away UNTIL they do win the championship.

2. All kids will be expected to have the same football skills at the same time
even if they do not have the same conditions or opportunities to practice on
their own. NO exceptions will be made for lack of interest in football, a
desire to perform athletically, or genetic abilities or disabilities of themselves or their parents.
ALL KIDS WILL PLAY FOOTBALL AT A PROFICIENT LEVEL!

3. Talented players will be asked to workout on their own, without
instruction. This is because the coaches will be using all their
instructional time with the athletes who arent interested in football, have
limited athletic ability or whose parents dont like football.

4. Games will be played year round, but statistics will only be kept in the
4th, 8th, and 11th game. It will create a New Age of Sports where every
school is expected to have the same level of talent and all teams will reach
the same minimum goals. If no child gets ahead, then no child gets left behind.
If parents do not like this new law, they are encouraged to vote for vouchers
and support private schools that can screen out the non-athletes and prevent
their children from having to go to school with bad football players.


----------



## LibocalypseNow

Greedy Teacher Unions are no different than corrupt Politicians in the end. They always seem to forget that they work for the Taxpayers. The Taxpayers don't work for them. Unions should have never been allowed in Government. The People don't want them. Time to boot them and the corrupt Politicians.


----------



## bodecea

LibocalypseNow said:


> Greedy Teacher Unions are no different than corrupt Politicians in the end. They always seem to forget that they work for the Taxpayers. The Taxpayers don't work for them. Unions should have never been allowed in Government. The People don't want them. Time to boot them and the corrupt Politicians.



Teachers ARE their unions....so you are basically saying that teachers are greedy and should be booted.   This is the dream Republicans have?


----------



## LibocalypseNow

These Teachers in Wisconsin should just get back to work. That's what the Taxpayers want. The Taxpayers are the Boss. Hopefully one day them and the corrupt Politicians will come to accept this.


----------



## Wicked Jester

bodecea said:


> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greedy Teacher Unions are no different than corrupt Politicians in the end. They always seem to forget that they work for the Taxpayers. The Taxpayers don't work for them. Unions should have never been allowed in Government. The People don't want them. Time to boot them and the corrupt Politicians.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers ARE their unions....so you are basically saying that teachers are greedy and should be booted.   This is the dream Republicans have?
Click to expand...

Noooooooo, just the ones who are violating the RIGHTS of their students to an education, and are committing fraud by submitting fraudulent doctors notes.

We republicans want honest, capable teachers who don't infringe on their students RIGHTS, and commit crimes like fraud.

Seriously, would you want dishonest frauds teaching your children?

If so, you're a dumbass, and should never raise children. Fore, you would be part of the problem.


----------



## LibocalypseNow

Poll after Poll shows that the Taxpayers do not want Unions in Government. Most can somewhat accept Unions in the Private Sector but not in Government. They really blew it when they allowed Unionization to happen. The Taxpayers don't want them. Time to give them the boot once and for all.


----------



## bodecea

Wicked Jester said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Greedy Teacher Unions are no different than corrupt Politicians in the end. They always seem to forget that they work for the Taxpayers. The Taxpayers don't work for them. Unions should have never been allowed in Government. The People don't want them. Time to boot them and the corrupt Politicians.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers ARE their unions....so you are basically saying that teachers are greedy and should be booted.   This is the dream Republicans have?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Noooooooo, just the ones who are violating the RIGHTS of their students to an education, and are committing fraud by submitting fraudulent doctors notes.
> 
> *We republicans want honest, capable teachers *who don't infringe on their students rights, and commit crimes like fraud.
> 
> Seriously, would you want didhonest frauds teaching your children?
> 
> If so, you're a dumbass, and should never raise children. Fore, you would be part of the problem.
Click to expand...


No you don't.   You want whipping boys who quietly lick the boots of their Republican masters and don't make a peep when their ability to collectively get a fair shake is taken from them.


----------



## Wicked Jester

bodecea said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> Teachers ARE their unions....so you are basically saying that teachers are greedy and should be booted.   This is the dream Republicans have?
> 
> 
> 
> Noooooooo, just the ones who are violating the RIGHTS of their students to an education, and are committing fraud by submitting fraudulent doctors notes.
> 
> *We republicans want honest, capable teachers *who don't infringe on their students rights, and commit crimes like fraud.
> 
> Seriously, would you want didhonest frauds teaching your children?
> 
> If so, you're a dumbass, and should never raise children. Fore, you would be part of the problem.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No you don't.   You want whipping boys who quietly lick the boots of their Republican masters and don't make a peep when their ability to collectively get a fair shake is taken from them.
Click to expand...

Once again, epic fail on your part.......No surprise there!......Message board posts emulating your life.

But, since you fail to address the rest of my post, i'll take is as a concession that once again you're backed between a rock and a hard place by me, yet again!


----------



## Foxfyre

bodecea said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> True enough about there being no district money for teachers to get their Masters, but then there's no gaurantee the individual would work for the district after they complete their degree...PLUS there is no shortage of Masters of Educational Administration candidates standing in line for Assistant Principal positions REGARDLESS.
> 
> What is a "Master Teacher?"...More importantly:do we really need them enough to pay significantly more $$....If they existed, wouldn't they be pretty easy to identify? I mean, you could drop a "Master Teacher" into any classroom full of underachievers, and they'd go from a 30% passing rate to a 90% passing rate?...My guess is that few states have these because TEACHERS Unions discourage them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not only that, but very few industries pay for their employees' education.  Nobody paid me for mine though certain levels of education were a requirement for numerous positions I have had.  Why should teachers' be any different?
> 
> Also there is very little room at the top in just about everything.  There are only so many coaching positions in the NFL and all players will not aspire to or be qualified for those positions.  There are only so many supervisory jobs, so many vice president positions, so many CEO jobs out there.   We always hope the cream will rise to the top to be the CEOs and supervisors and principals and superintendents, and not all will qualify and not all who do qualify will want those kinds of jobs.
> 
> A republic that protects the unalienable rights of the people and respects human rights gives all who have the drive and ambition and ability to achieve whatever their hearts desire.  But while it allows for the most free people on Earth, it does not provide all we want.  And what we want in the way of wages, benefits, hours, and working conditions doesn't fall within the scope of unalienable rights.  Sometimes its necessary to choose what sacrifices we are willing to make and what effort we are willing to put out to get what we want.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Coaches in the NFL get to pick the best of the best for their teams.    Can you imagine if they were required to take ANYONE (including those who don't even want to play football) on their team?   And at the end of the season, they are determined a success or a failure based on the end performance of each player on the team including those who rarely showed up for practice, refused to drill, and sat down on the field in a do-nothing pout when the ball was in play?
Click to expand...


Well coming at it from a purely practical standpoint I don't think the schools should have to take anybody.  I think schools should take the students who are capable of doing the work, who maintain a reasonable degree of civility, and who are not disruptive to other students or the school staff.  If the community votes the funding, those incapable of doing a minimum level of work should be handled by special education.  If there is insufficient demand for that, the parents would need to put together some kind of private system or home school.

It would be up to the parents to teach their kids the virtues of respect for other students and respect for authority.  Those kids incapable of learning that should be expelled and the parents make other arrangements to educate them.   The parents will make every effort to educate them until they are at least 16.  No kid will be eligible for an unrestricted drivers' license, however, until he has achieved a highschool diploma or a G.E.D. or reached Age 21, whichever comes first.  I think that would take care of a whole lot of motivation problems.  Also if there is sufficient interest, a vocational school could be established for older kids who can't or won't cut it in the regular classroom.

Parents will also be responsible to see that their kids have a decent breakfast and lunch money and adequate school supplies (tablets, paper, pencils, crayons, etc. etc. as most of us were required to have.)  Those that do not will receive a visit from social services.  Except for the most unusual circumstances, parents who cannot or will not provide the barest basic necessities for their children should not be allowed to keep those children.

And meanwhile the parents will demand that the teachers teach real subjects and that their kids have opportunity to learn reading, writing, math, science, history, and social studies sufficiently to be educated and without ideological indoctrination.  And if that involves busting some unions to get teachers who want to do that and who are good at it, so be it.


----------



## LibocalypseNow

I just want Unions out of Government completely. The Taxpayers should have more say in this. Put it to a Vote and i think most would vote to boot Unions from Government. Unions really do have that sense of entitlement. I think most Taxpayers are sick of them.


----------



## bodecea

Foxfyre said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not only that, but very few industries pay for their employees' education.  Nobody paid me for mine though certain levels of education were a requirement for numerous positions I have had.  Why should teachers' be any different?
> 
> Also there is very little room at the top in just about everything.  There are only so many coaching positions in the NFL and all players will not aspire to or be qualified for those positions.  There are only so many supervisory jobs, so many vice president positions, so many CEO jobs out there.   We always hope the cream will rise to the top to be the CEOs and supervisors and principals and superintendents, and not all will qualify and not all who do qualify will want those kinds of jobs.
> 
> A republic that protects the unalienable rights of the people and respects human rights gives all who have the drive and ambition and ability to achieve whatever their hearts desire.  But while it allows for the most free people on Earth, it does not provide all we want.  And what we want in the way of wages, benefits, hours, and working conditions doesn't fall within the scope of unalienable rights.  Sometimes its necessary to choose what sacrifices we are willing to make and what effort we are willing to put out to get what we want.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coaches in the NFL get to pick the best of the best for their teams.    Can you imagine if they were required to take ANYONE (including those who don't even want to play football) on their team?   And at the end of the season, they are determined a success or a failure based on the end performance of each player on the team including those who rarely showed up for practice, refused to drill, and sat down on the field in a do-nothing pout when the ball was in play?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well coming at it from a purely practical standpoint I don't think the schools should have to take anybody.  I think schools should take the students who are capable of doing the work, who maintain a reasonable degree of civility, and who are not disruptive to other students or the school staff.  If the community votes the funding, those incapable of doing a minimum level of work should be handled by special education.  If there is insufficient demand for that, the parents would need to put together some kind of private system or home school.
> 
> It would be up to the parents to teach their kids the virtues of respect for other students and respect for authority.  Those kids incapable of learning that should be expelled and the parents make other arrangements to educate them.   The parents will make every effort to educate them until they are at least 16.  No kid will be eligible for an unrestricted drivers' license, however, until he has achieved a highschool diploma or a G.E.D. or reached Age 21, whichever comes first.  I think that would take care of a whole lot of motivation problems.  Also if there is sufficient interest, a vocational school could be established for older kids who can't or won't cut it in the regular classroom.
> 
> Parents will also be responsible to see that their kids have a decent breakfast and lunch money and adequate school supplies (tablets, paper, pencils, crayons, etc. etc. as most of us were required to have.)  Those that do not will receive a visit from social services.  Except for the most unusual circumstances, parents who cannot or will not provide the barest basic necessities for their children should not be allowed to keep those children.
> 
> And meanwhile the parents will demand that the teachers teach real subjects and that their kids have opportunity to learn reading, writing, math, science, history, and social studies sufficiently to be educated and without ideological indoctrination.  And if that involves busting some unions to get teachers who want to do that and who are good at it, so be it.
Click to expand...

Personally, I have no problem with any of that.   But it would never happen.


----------



## Foxfyre

bodecea said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> Coaches in the NFL get to pick the best of the best for their teams.    Can you imagine if they were required to take ANYONE (including those who don't even want to play football) on their team?   And at the end of the season, they are determined a success or a failure based on the end performance of each player on the team including those who rarely showed up for practice, refused to drill, and sat down on the field in a do-nothing pout when the ball was in play?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well coming at it from a purely practical standpoint I don't think the schools should have to take anybody.  I think schools should take the students who are capable of doing the work, who maintain a reasonable degree of civility, and who are not disruptive to other students or the school staff.  If the community votes the funding, those incapable of doing a minimum level of work should be handled by special education.  If there is insufficient demand for that, the parents would need to put together some kind of private system or home school.
> 
> It would be up to the parents to teach their kids the virtues of respect for other students and respect for authority.  Those kids incapable of learning that should be expelled and the parents make other arrangements to educate them.   The parents will make every effort to educate them until they are at least 16.  No kid will be eligible for an unrestricted drivers' license, however, until he has achieved a highschool diploma or a G.E.D. or reached Age 21, whichever comes first.  I think that would take care of a whole lot of motivation problems.  Also if there is sufficient interest, a vocational school could be established for older kids who can't or won't cut it in the regular classroom.
> 
> Parents will also be responsible to see that their kids have a decent breakfast and lunch money and adequate school supplies (tablets, paper, pencils, crayons, etc. etc. as most of us were required to have.)  Those that do not will receive a visit from social services.  Except for the most unusual circumstances, parents who cannot or will not provide the barest basic necessities for their children should not be allowed to keep those children.
> 
> And meanwhile the parents will demand that the teachers teach real subjects and that their kids have opportunity to learn reading, writing, math, science, history, and social studies sufficiently to be educated and without ideological indoctrination.  And if that involves busting some unions to get teachers who want to do that and who are good at it, so be it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Personally, I have no problem with any of that.   But it would never happen.
Click to expand...


It can and will happen if enough people are willing to look at government differently and have the will and fortitude to make it happen.  It will mean giving up some notions that have been adopted as sacred cows and having the will to get rid of major road blocks that prevent it from happening.  That means getting rid of some unions who protect the bad teachers along  with the good.  That means getting rid of the notion that parents should not be held accountable and responsible for the kids they bring into the world.  It means being willing to see, think, and act differently than the broken system we have become comfortable with.

All it takes is enough people who say "Yes.  Let's do that."


----------



## LibocalypseNow

I just hate the whole Entitlement attitude thing. Teacher Unions have only promoted that attitude. Most of these States are broke. Teacher Unions are going to have to be more flexible and listen to the Taxpayers. After all,they do work for those Taxpayers. These Teachers in Wisconsin should get back to work. It's what the People want. End of story.


----------



## Wicked Jester

Foxfyre said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well coming at it from a purely practical standpoint I don't think the schools should have to take anybody.  I think schools should take the students who are capable of doing the work, who maintain a reasonable degree of civility, and who are not disruptive to other students or the school staff.  If the community votes the funding, those incapable of doing a minimum level of work should be handled by special education.  If there is insufficient demand for that, the parents would need to put together some kind of private system or home school.
> 
> It would be up to the parents to teach their kids the virtues of respect for other students and respect for authority.  Those kids incapable of learning that should be expelled and the parents make other arrangements to educate them.   The parents will make every effort to educate them until they are at least 16.  No kid will be eligible for an unrestricted drivers' license, however, until he has achieved a highschool diploma or a G.E.D. or reached Age 21, whichever comes first.  I think that would take care of a whole lot of motivation problems.  Also if there is sufficient interest, a vocational school could be established for older kids who can't or won't cut it in the regular classroom.
> 
> Parents will also be responsible to see that their kids have a decent breakfast and lunch money and adequate school supplies (tablets, paper, pencils, crayons, etc. etc. as most of us were required to have.)  Those that do not will receive a visit from social services.  Except for the most unusual circumstances, parents who cannot or will not provide the barest basic necessities for their children should not be allowed to keep those children.
> 
> And meanwhile the parents will demand that the teachers teach real subjects and that their kids have opportunity to learn reading, writing, math, science, history, and social studies sufficiently to be educated and without ideological indoctrination.  And if that involves busting some unions to get teachers who want to do that and who are good at it, so be it.
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, I have no problem with any of that.   But it would never happen.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It can and will happen if enough people are willing to look at government differently and have the will and fortitude to make it happen.  It will mean giving up some notions that have been adopted as sacred cows and having the will to get rid of major road blocks that prevent it from happening.  That means getting rid of some unions who protect the bad teachers along  with the good.  That means getting rid of the notion that parents should not be held accountable and responsible for the kids they bring into the world.  It means being willing to see, think, and act differently than the broken system we have become comfortable with.
> 
> All it takes is enough people who say "Yes.  Let's do that."
Click to expand...

It can definitley happen if people start understanding that government isn't the solution to everything. That's going to be a tough sell to the left.


----------



## Wicked Jester

LibocalypseNow said:


> I just hate the whole Entitlement attitude thing. Teacher Unions have only promoted that attitude. Most of these States are broke. Teacher Unions are going to have to be more flexible and listen to the Taxpayers. After all,they do work for those Taxpayers. These Teachers in Wisconsin should get back to work. It's what the People want. End of story.


Absolutely. They need to stop stepping all over the childrens RIGHTS to an education, and get their asses back in the classrooms.

They want to protest, fine. They can do it on their own time.


----------



## HUGGY

Some of you bitch ass punk motherfuckers almost make me embarrassed to be an American.

How many of you whiners that demand jail time for a handful of people holding out for peanuts and the rights they have already negotiated for and won demanded that the people that REALLY caused our financial crisis be prosecuted and put in prison?

How many of you???  That's what I thought. NONE of YOU.  You suck as human beings and definitely suck as Americans.


----------



## Foxfyre

Wicked Jester said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, I have no problem with any of that.   But it would never happen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It can and will happen if enough people are willing to look at government differently and have the will and fortitude to make it happen.  It will mean giving up some notions that have been adopted as sacred cows and having the will to get rid of major road blocks that prevent it from happening.  That means getting rid of some unions who protect the bad teachers along  with the good.  That means getting rid of the notion that parents should not be held accountable and responsible for the kids they bring into the world.  It means being willing to see, think, and act differently than the broken system we have become comfortable with.
> 
> All it takes is enough people who say "Yes.  Let's do that."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It can definitley happen if people start understanding that government isn't the solution to everything. That's going to be a tough sell to the left.
Click to expand...


It's a tough sell to just about everybody, W.J.  If the solution was just right wing or left wing ideology, then we would be seeing fixes when one or the other side was in power.  It's the big fear that if we do that (I/me/us/we) will take it on the chin--the fear of trading the devil we know for something a lot of us have never seen.

But we don't see fixes.   When the left is in power and gives away lots of lots of programs and goodies to "help" people, in a normal economy things usually do get better for awhile.  But it is almost always at the price of huge bills on down the road with mounting unpayable debts that continue to accrue with interest.  Nothing gets fixed when you just shuffle people around in the same flawed system.

When the right is in power and the economy is turned loose more on its own initiative, the economy usually does take off.  But whatever initiatives triggered the growth will level off and though eveybody levels off at a higher level than before, even those who call themselves conservative have used bandaids and patches but without any real medicine to heal the wounds.  So nothing gets fixed when you use the same flawed organizations to work within a patched system.

We haven't tried anything really new and different--we haven't had a radically different way of thinking about freedom, unalienable rights, and limited government for a very long time now.  Both Democrats and Republicans have perpetuated a flawed system that is running out of gas.

It's time to rethink it all and do it differently.

And we can start by not demanding that Wisconsin or any other state retain a flawed system that isn't sustainable and isn't getting the job done.


----------



## HUGGY

Foxfyre said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> It can and will happen if enough people are willing to look at government differently and have the will and fortitude to make it happen.  It will mean giving up some notions that have been adopted as sacred cows and having the will to get rid of major road blocks that prevent it from happening.  That means getting rid of some unions who protect the bad teachers along  with the good.  That means getting rid of the notion that parents should not be held accountable and responsible for the kids they bring into the world.  It means being willing to see, think, and act differently than the broken system we have become comfortable with.
> 
> All it takes is enough people who say "Yes.  Let's do that."
> 
> 
> 
> It can definitley happen if people start understanding that government isn't the solution to everything. That's going to be a tough sell to the left.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's a tough sell to just about everybody, W.J.  If the solution was just right wing or left wing ideology, then we would be seeing fixes when one or the other side was in power.  It's the big fear that if we do that (I/me/us/we) will take it on the chin--the fear of trading the devil we know for something a lot of us have never seen.
> 
> But we don't see fixes.   When the left is in power and gives away lots of lots of programs and goodies to "help" people, in a normal economy things usually do get better for awhile.  But it is almost always as the price of unpayable bills on down the road that will have to be paid with interest.  Nothing gets fixed when you just shuffle people around in the same flawed system.
> 
> When the right is in power and the economy is turned loose more on its own initiative, the economy usually does take off.  But whatever initiatives triggered the growth will level off and though eveybody levels off at a higher level than before, even those who call themselves conservative have used bandaids and patches but without any real medicine to heal the wounds.  So nothing gets fixed when you use the same flawed organizations to work within a patched system.
> 
> We haven't tried anything really new and different--we haven't had a radically different way of thinking about freedom, unalienable rights, and limited government for a very long time now.  Both Democrats and Republicans have perpetuated a flawed system that is running out of gas.
> 
> It's time to rethink it all and do it differently.
> 
> And we can start by not demanding that Wisconsin or any other state retain a flawed system that isn't sustainable and isn't getting the job done.
Click to expand...


I disagree.  The system is not "flawed".  It has been gamed by some treacherous assholes and no one had the guts to step in and prevent it and no one has the guts to stand up and prosecute them.

Try and use ALL of your imagination and consider what the world economy would be like right this minute if responsible people had done their job and these so called derivatives had been stopped in their tracks or at the very least rated their true value and risk.

But no...let's just knaw on our own legs like some stupid desperate wolves caught in a trap.  Let's lash out at whomever seems to have a slightly upper hand through good foresight and legal means on their part.

Fuck this shit!  If you dummies want to make things right then by God make it right starting with the assets of those that put us in this mess.  THEN assess a penalty on every institution that participated and make THEM pay for much of this expense.


----------



## Samson

HUGGY said:


> Some of you bitch ass punk motherfuckers almost make me embarrassed to be an American.
> 
> How many of you whiners that demand jail time for a handful of people holding out for peanuts and the rights they have already negotiated for and won demanded that the people that REALLY caused our financial crisis be prosecuted and put in prison?
> 
> How many of you???  That's what I thought. NONE of YOU.  You suck as human beings and definitely suck as Americans.



Is this melt-down sponsored by anyone or group in particular, or just the entire human species in general?


----------



## Samson

Wicked Jester said:


> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just hate the whole Entitlement attitude thing. Teacher Unions have only promoted that attitude. Most of these States are broke. Teacher Unions are going to have to be more flexible and listen to the Taxpayers. After all,they do work for those Taxpayers. These Teachers in Wisconsin should get back to work. It's what the People want. End of story.
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely. They need to stop stepping all over the childrens RIGHTS to an education, and get their asses back in the classrooms.
> 
> They want to protest, fine. They can do it on their own time.
Click to expand...


I wanna know when State Prison Guards are going to Strike.

After all, don't they deserve all the collective bargaining "Rights" that teachers get?


----------



## HUGGY

Samson said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some of you bitch ass punk motherfuckers almost make me embarrassed to be an American.
> 
> How many of you whiners that demand jail time for a handful of people holding out for peanuts and the rights they have already negotiated for and won demanded that the people that REALLY caused our financial crisis be prosecuted and put in prison?
> 
> How many of you???  That's what I thought. NONE of YOU.  You suck as human beings and definitely suck as Americans.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is this melt-down sponsored by anyone or group in particular, or just the entire human species in general?
Click to expand...


The species known as the money changers.  I'm goin ALL BeJebus today!!!


----------



## Wicked Jester

HUGGY said:


> Some of you bitch ass punk motherfuckers almost make me embarrassed to be an American.
> 
> How many of you whiners that demand jail time for a handful of people holding out for peanuts and the rights they have already negotiated for and won demanded that the people that REALLY caused our financial crisis be prosecuted and put in prison?
> 
> How many of you???  That's what I thought. NONE of YOU.  You suck as human beings and definitely suck as Americans.


What are you babbling about?

Take a chill pill, sparky......What's the matter, your dealer not answering the cell again. Causing you to jones like a motherfucker?

Yeah, we want those teachers to get their asses back to work. Quit stepping on the childrens rights to an education. Quit stepping on the parents who are now having to stay home from work at a loss of pay to ensure their children are safe and not out running amok. Imagine the hadship it causes a one income single parent or family who is struggling to just get by to lose even one day of pay......Or do you even give a shit about that?

Those teachers want to go join the protest, they can do it on their own god damn time. Not on the childrens and taxpayers time.....And, if they submit fraudulent notes from doctors in an attempt to defraud the taxpayers, then their sorry criminal asses should definitely have to pay......They are not special. A criminal is a fucking criminal.....GET IT?

And yes, lets go after those who caused the financial mess. But that's a seperate issue. Go talk to Holders ass, or quit yer bitchin'!


----------



## HUGGY

Wicked Jester said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some of you bitch ass punk motherfuckers almost make me embarrassed to be an American.
> 
> How many of you whiners that demand jail time for a handful of people holding out for peanuts and the rights they have already negotiated for and won demanded that the people that REALLY caused our financial crisis be prosecuted and put in prison?
> 
> How many of you???  That's what I thought. NONE of YOU.  You suck as human beings and definitely suck as Americans.
> 
> 
> 
> What are you babbling about?
> 
> Take a chill pill, sparky......What's the matter, *your dealer not answering the cell again.* Causing you to jones like a motherfucker?
> 
> Yeah, we want those teachers to get their asses back to work. Quit stepping on the childrens rights to an education. Quit stepping on the parents who are now having to stay home from work at a loss of pay to ensure their children are safe and not out running amok. Imagine the hadship it causes a one income single parent or family who is struggling to just get by to lose even one day of pay......Or do you even give a shit about that?
> 
> Those teachers want to go join the protest, they can do it on their own god damn time. Not on the childrens and taxpayers time.....And, if they submit fraudulent notes from doctors in an attempt to defraud the taxpayers, then their sorry criminal asses should definitely have to pay......They are not special. A criminal is a fucking criminal.....GET IT?
> 
> And yes, lets go after those who caused the financial mess. But that's a seperate issue. Go talk to Holders ass, or quit yer bitchin'!
Click to expand...


MMMMmmmmmaybe...


----------



## Wicked Jester

HUGGY said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some of you bitch ass punk motherfuckers almost make me embarrassed to be an American.
> 
> How many of you whiners that demand jail time for a handful of people holding out for peanuts and the rights they have already negotiated for and won demanded that the people that REALLY caused our financial crisis be prosecuted and put in prison?
> 
> How many of you???  That's what I thought. NONE of YOU.  You suck as human beings and definitely suck as Americans.
> 
> 
> 
> What are you babbling about?
> 
> Take a chill pill, sparky......What's the matter, *your dealer not answering the cell again.* Causing you to jones like a motherfucker?
> 
> Yeah, we want those teachers to get their asses back to work. Quit stepping on the childrens rights to an education. Quit stepping on the parents who are now having to stay home from work at a loss of pay to ensure their children are safe and not out running amok. Imagine the hadship it causes a one income single parent or family who is struggling to just get by to lose even one day of pay......Or do you even give a shit about that?
> 
> Those teachers want to go join the protest, they can do it on their own god damn time. Not on the childrens and taxpayers time.....And, if they submit fraudulent notes from doctors in an attempt to defraud the taxpayers, then their sorry criminal asses should definitely have to pay......They are not special. A criminal is a fucking criminal.....GET IT?
> 
> And yes, lets go after those who caused the financial mess. But that's a seperate issue. Go talk to Holders ass, or quit yer bitchin'!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> MMMMmmmmmaybe...
Click to expand...

Yeah, I remember those days......Glad they're long behind me......But I still like to partake in a lil' toke every now & then. No problem there. Got a medical marijuana card and the dispenseries are usually open 8am to midnight!....Hoooooody hooooooooo!


----------



## bodecea

Samson said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just hate the whole Entitlement attitude thing. Teacher Unions have only promoted that attitude. Most of these States are broke. Teacher Unions are going to have to be more flexible and listen to the Taxpayers. After all,they do work for those Taxpayers. These Teachers in Wisconsin should get back to work. It's what the People want. End of story.
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely. They need to stop stepping all over the childrens RIGHTS to an education, and get their asses back in the classrooms.
> 
> They want to protest, fine. They can do it on their own time.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I wanna know when State Prison Guards are going to Strike.
> 
> After all, don't they deserve all the collective bargaining "Rights" that teachers get?
Click to expand...


The Prison Guard Union here in CA is the most powerful union of all...it's a growing concern.


----------



## Samson

bodecea said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely. They need to stop stepping all over the childrens RIGHTS to an education, and get their asses back in the classrooms.
> 
> They want to protest, fine. They can do it on their own time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wanna know when State Prison Guards are going to Strike.
> 
> After all, don't they deserve all the collective bargaining "Rights" that teachers get?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Prison Guard Union here in CA is the most powerful union of all...it's a growing concern.
Click to expand...


You mean Governor Brown hasn't proposed closing down the prisons?

Perhaps I'm not giving him enought credit.....


----------



## LibocalypseNow

The Democrats really blew it when they forced Unions into our Government. Most people can accept Unions in the Private Sector but not in Government. These Teachers in Wisconsin have shut schools down all across Wisconsin. They should have never been allowed to have so much power. New Legislation should be presented which removes all Unions from Government. You're seeing the results of Unions in Government having too much power. Things need to change.


----------



## Foxfyre

HUGGY said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> It can definitley happen if people start understanding that government isn't the solution to everything. That's going to be a tough sell to the left.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's a tough sell to just about everybody, W.J.  If the solution was just right wing or left wing ideology, then we would be seeing fixes when one or the other side was in power.  It's the big fear that if we do that (I/me/us/we) will take it on the chin--the fear of trading the devil we know for something a lot of us have never seen.
> 
> But we don't see fixes.   When the left is in power and gives away lots of lots of programs and goodies to "help" people, in a normal economy things usually do get better for awhile.  But it is almost always as the price of unpayable bills on down the road that will have to be paid with interest.  Nothing gets fixed when you just shuffle people around in the same flawed system.
> 
> When the right is in power and the economy is turned loose more on its own initiative, the economy usually does take off.  But whatever initiatives triggered the growth will level off and though eveybody levels off at a higher level than before, even those who call themselves conservative have used bandaids and patches but without any real medicine to heal the wounds.  So nothing gets fixed when you use the same flawed organizations to work within a patched system.
> 
> We haven't tried anything really new and different--we haven't had a radically different way of thinking about freedom, unalienable rights, and limited government for a very long time now.  Both Democrats and Republicans have perpetuated a flawed system that is running out of gas.
> 
> It's time to rethink it all and do it differently.
> 
> And we can start by not demanding that Wisconsin or any other state retain a flawed system that isn't sustainable and isn't getting the job done.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I disagree.  The system is not "flawed".  It has been gamed by some treacherous assholes and no one had the guts to step in and prevent it and no one has the guts to stand up and prosecute them.
> 
> Try and use ALL of your imagination and consider what the world economy would be like right this minute if responsible people had done their job and these so called derivatives had been stopped in their tracks or at the very least rated their true value and risk.
> 
> But no...let's just knaw on our own legs like some stupid desperate wolves caught in a trap.  Let's lash out at whomever seems to have a slightly upper hand through good foresight and legal means on their part.
> 
> Fuck this shit!  If you dummies want to make things right then by God make it right starting with the assets of those that put us in this mess.  THEN assess a penalty on every institution that participated and make THEM pay for much of this expense.
Click to expand...


A bit extreme don't you think?  How do you identify those institutions that you think should be made to pay?  How do you apportion what each one owes?

For now I would be happy if the feds just stay out of it and let each state deal with its own problems as is necessary short of trampling on anybody's unalienable or constitutional rights.  What the federal government COULD do that would be useful is give the states ability to declare limited bankruptcy protection so that they could reorganize and regroup in a manner that they could handle.

At the Federal level what we should be demanding is that nobody at the federal level--not the President or any of his cabinet or staff--not any member of the Senate or House or any of their staff--not any bureaucrat--could use any part of the people's money to benefit any individual person, group. organization, or association.  Make any form of 'charity' to anybody at the Federal level illegal and a huge part of the problem is immediately solved.


----------



## Samson

LibocalypseNow said:


> The Democrats really blew it when they forced Unions into our Government. Most people can accept Unions in the Private Sector but not in Government. These Teachers in Wisconsin have shut schools down all across Wisconsin. They should have never been allowed to have so much power. New Legislation should be presented which removes all Unions from Government. You're seeing the results of Unions in Government having too much power. Things need to change.



Its a state's right to be idiotic.


----------



## LibocalypseNow

Teacher Unions need to be severely weakened or removed from our Public Schools completely. They no longer care about the kids. Somewhere along the line they forgot that they work for the Taxpayers and not just for the Democratic Party. They serve no real purpose in our Public Schools. Kudos to Scott Walker for making tough Adult decisions. It's time to get Wisconsin back on track.


----------



## LibocalypseNow

It really does come down to that Entitlement mentality in the end. Teachers have become like Generational Welfare Recipients. Teachers don't have it nearly as bad as they claim. Just look at all the nice benefits they receive. When is the last time you saw a Welfare Recipient or Teacher say thank you to the Taxpayers? Personally i've never seen that. All i see Teachers & Welfare Recipients doing is whining & complaining and demanding more. I do blame the Democrats for this mentality. People just don't have as much sympathy for Teachers anymore. And Teachers only have themselves to blame for that. They need to stop all the Entitlement stuff and just say thank you to Taxpayers once and awhile. If they keep it up they will be on a road to ruin for sure.


----------



## bodecea

LibocalypseNow said:


> It really does come down to that Entitlement mentality in the end. Teachers have become like Generational Welfare Recipients. Teachers don't have it nearly as bad as they claim. Just look at all the nice benefits they receive. When is the last time you saw a Welfare Recipient or Teacher say thank you to the Taxpayers? Personally i've never seen that. All i see Teachers & Welfare Recipients doing is whining & complaining and demanding more. I do blame the Democrats for this mentality. People just don't have as much sympathy for Teachers anymore. And Teachers only have themselves to blame for that. They need to stop all the Entitlement stuff and just say thank you to Taxpayers once and awhile. If they keep it up they will be on a road to ruin for sure.



Ah...Teachers & Welfare Recipients.....kinda says it all, doesn't it?


----------



## Annie

bodecea said:


> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> It really does come down to that Entitlement mentality in the end. Teachers have become like Generational Welfare Recipients. Teachers don't have it nearly as bad as they claim. Just look at all the nice benefits they receive. When is the last time you saw a Welfare Recipient or Teacher say thank you to the Taxpayers? Personally i've never seen that. All i see Teachers & Welfare Recipients doing is whining & complaining and demanding more. I do blame the Democrats for this mentality. People just don't have as much sympathy for Teachers anymore. And Teachers only have themselves to blame for that. They need to stop all the Entitlement stuff and just say thank you to Taxpayers once and awhile. If they keep it up they will be on a road to ruin for sure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ah...Teachers & Welfare Recipients.....kinda says it all, doesn't it?
Click to expand...


Not really. Taking a poorly constructed argument and building on it?


----------



## Wicked Jester

bodecea said:


> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> It really does come down to that Entitlement mentality in the end. Teachers have become like Generational Welfare Recipients. Teachers don't have it nearly as bad as they claim. Just look at all the nice benefits they receive. When is the last time you saw a Welfare Recipient or Teacher say thank you to the Taxpayers? Personally i've never seen that. All i see Teachers & Welfare Recipients doing is whining & complaining and demanding more. I do blame the Democrats for this mentality. People just don't have as much sympathy for Teachers anymore. And Teachers only have themselves to blame for that. They need to stop all the Entitlement stuff and just say thank you to Taxpayers once and awhile. If they keep it up they will be on a road to ruin for sure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ah...Teachers & Welfare Recipients.....kinda says it all, doesn't it?
Click to expand...

Once again, you show your abject stupidity and ignorance.


----------



## HUGGY

Foxfyre said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's a tough sell to just about everybody, W.J.  If the solution was just right wing or left wing ideology, then we would be seeing fixes when one or the other side was in power.  It's the big fear that if we do that (I/me/us/we) will take it on the chin--the fear of trading the devil we know for something a lot of us have never seen.
> 
> But we don't see fixes.   When the left is in power and gives away lots of lots of programs and goodies to "help" people, in a normal economy things usually do get better for awhile.  But it is almost always as the price of unpayable bills on down the road that will have to be paid with interest.  Nothing gets fixed when you just shuffle people around in the same flawed system.
> 
> When the right is in power and the economy is turned loose more on its own initiative, the economy usually does take off.  But whatever initiatives triggered the growth will level off and though eveybody levels off at a higher level than before, even those who call themselves conservative have used bandaids and patches but without any real medicine to heal the wounds.  So nothing gets fixed when you use the same flawed organizations to work within a patched system.
> 
> We haven't tried anything really new and different--we haven't had a radically different way of thinking about freedom, unalienable rights, and limited government for a very long time now.  Both Democrats and Republicans have perpetuated a flawed system that is running out of gas.
> 
> It's time to rethink it all and do it differently.
> 
> And we can start by not demanding that Wisconsin or any other state retain a flawed system that isn't sustainable and isn't getting the job done.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree.  The system is not "flawed".  It has been gamed by some treacherous assholes and no one had the guts to step in and prevent it and no one has the guts to stand up and prosecute them.
> 
> Try and use ALL of your imagination and consider what the world economy would be like right this minute if responsible people had done their job and these so called derivatives had been stopped in their tracks or at the very least rated their true value and risk.
> 
> But no...let's just knaw on our own legs like some stupid desperate wolves caught in a trap.  Let's lash out at whomever seems to have a slightly upper hand through good foresight and legal means on their part.
> 
> Fuck this shit!  If you dummies want to make things right then by God make it right starting with the assets of those that put us in this mess.  THEN assess a penalty on every institution that participated and make THEM pay for much of this expense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> A bit extreme don't you think?  How do you identify those institutions that you think should be made to pay?  How do you apportion what each one owes?
> 
> For now I would be happy if the feds just stay out of it and let each state deal with its own problems as is necessary short of trampling on anybody's unalienable or constitutional rights.  What the federal government COULD do that would be useful is give the states ability to declare limited bankruptcy protection so that they could reorganize and regroup in a manner that they could handle.
> 
> At the Federal level what we should be demanding is that nobody at the federal level--not the President or any of his cabinet or staff--not any member of the Senate or House or any of their staff--not any bureaucrat--could use any part of the people's money to benefit any individual person, group. organization, or association.  Make any form of 'charity' to anybody at the Federal level illegal and a huge part of the problem is immediately solved.
Click to expand...


I watched the commission that investigated the financial crisis a few days ago..give their public report.  THEY recommend and have forwarded evidence for prosecution.  

Extreme?  right and wrong ...justice..is an extreme position?  The TRUTH is that if this financial crisis had not hit us and there was something to build on instead of repairing a crisis this ghoulish conversation would not be happening.   

You morons want to give the wealthiest Americans tax cuts at a time like this and threaten to shut down our government if that didn't happen?  

Nevermind....  I don't feel like talking to zombies this evening...  You are all correct.  Get rid of all unions.  Drive down the American worker.  Buy all your crap at Walmart.  Fuck American manufacturing.  Worship the thieves of Wall Street.  Buy another Biz Jet for the CEO of a HMO.  Fuck it!.... buy a dozen...his kids need transportation too. 

Maybe you are not stupid.  Maybe you are just fucking evil.


----------



## Iceona

Wicked Jester said:


> Annie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> Doing away with the unions will force teachers to hold themselves to a higher standard. They won't have the security blanket of a union fighting for them despite their abject incompetence.
> 
> Get the power out of the hands of the unions and put it fully in the hands of the school districts. If the school districts could have the power over their teachers and their competence without the inevitable threat of union intervention in personnel matters, things would no doubt change.
> 
> Basically, just cut out the middle man and get directly down to business. Enough is enough.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To a degree I agree with Gem. Truth of the matter is that Unions have protected the worst of teachers, doing away with that is good. However, the real issue for failure doesn't lie with teachers, but with parenting and the expectations that somehow 'schools' or 'teachers' can fix what's broken.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There's been bad parenting from day one. No doubt about it. It just seems that nowadays it's gotten worse. No doubt due to many factors, too include the nanny state culture that many kids are being raised under. Their parents make a living on welfare so, the kids say fuck it, why work hard in school when I can just milk it and get free shit later on in life, and supplement my tax payer given income by selling drugs or whatnot just like mommy and daddy do?
> 
> The teachers blame the parents, and vice versa. Fact is, they've both become a problem. Disban the unions who blatantly protect incompetence and start using  existing LAWS and create new LAWS to go after dysfunctional parents. Despite what the ACLU might whine about.
Click to expand...


Just because a person is on welfare doesn't mean they are lazy or drug dealers. In this economy many people can't find jobs. Furthermore if a child sees his/her parents struggling financially they will be motivated to not live that life. Teachers are fundamental to the advancement of children. Sure there are some who are "bad" and should be fired, but I'm not willing to sacrifice the good teachers livelyhood for that to happen.


----------



## Flopper

Foxfyre said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not only that, but very few industries pay for their employees' education.  Nobody paid me for mine though certain levels of education were a requirement for numerous positions I have had.  Why should teachers' be any different?
> 
> Also there is very little room at the top in just about everything.  There are only so many coaching positions in the NFL and all players will not aspire to or be qualified for those positions.  There are only so many supervisory jobs, so many vice president positions, so many CEO jobs out there.   We always hope the cream will rise to the top to be the CEOs and supervisors and principals and superintendents, and not all will qualify and not all who do qualify will want those kinds of jobs.
> 
> A republic that protects the unalienable rights of the people and respects human rights gives all who have the drive and ambition and ability to achieve whatever their hearts desire.  But while it allows for the most free people on Earth, it does not provide all we want.  And what we want in the way of wages, benefits, hours, and working conditions doesn't fall within the scope of unalienable rights.  Sometimes its necessary to choose what sacrifices we are willing to make and what effort we are willing to put out to get what we want.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coaches in the NFL get to pick the best of the best for their teams.    Can you imagine if they were required to take ANYONE (including those who don't even want to play football) on their team?   And at the end of the season, they are determined a success or a failure based on the end performance of each player on the team including those who rarely showed up for practice, refused to drill, and sat down on the field in a do-nothing pout when the ball was in play?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well coming at it from a purely practical standpoint I don't think the schools should have to take anybody.  I think schools should take the students who are capable of doing the work, who maintain a reasonable degree of civility, and who are not disruptive to other students or the school staff.  If the community votes the funding, those incapable of doing a minimum level of work should be handled by special education.  If there is insufficient demand for that, the parents would need to put together some kind of private system or home school.
> 
> It would be up to the parents to teach their kids the virtues of respect for other students and respect for authority.  Those kids incapable of learning that should be expelled and the parents make other arrangements to educate them.   The parents will make every effort to educate them until they are at least 16.  No kid will be eligible for an unrestricted drivers' license, however, until he has achieved a highschool diploma or a G.E.D. or reached Age 21, whichever comes first.  I think that would take care of a whole lot of motivation problems.  Also if there is sufficient interest, a vocational school could be established for older kids who can't or won't cut it in the regular classroom.
> 
> Parents will also be responsible to see that their kids have a decent breakfast and lunch money and adequate school supplies (tablets, paper, pencils, crayons, etc. etc. as most of us were required to have.)  Those that do not will receive a visit from social services.  Except for the most unusual circumstances, parents who cannot or will not provide the barest basic necessities for their children should not be allowed to keep those children.
> 
> And meanwhile the parents will demand that the teachers teach real subjects and that their kids have opportunity to learn reading, writing, math, science, history, and social studies sufficiently to be educated and without ideological indoctrination.  And if that involves busting some unions to get teachers who want to do that and who are good at it, so be it.
Click to expand...

I think you are living in a dream world.  Yes, if the educational system could accept only the good hard working students that dont cause disruptions in the classroom, and are really capable of doing the work, it would totally transform the schools system.  This is exactly what other countries are doing, whose educational systems are ranked higher than ours.  However, try telling a parent that their kid is not good enough to go to public schools that they help pay for and they have to home school or send their kid to private school.

About 30% of the kids in this country live in single-family homes.  Kids from these homes are most likely to be incapable keeping up with the class and most likely to cause disruptions.  Home Schooling and private schools is rarely an option for these kids.

Remove the problem kids, the slow learners, and the Special Ed kids.  Test scores will go up, teachers will do a better job and costs will go down.  The only problem is what to do with these kids.


----------



## Flopper

LibocalypseNow said:


> It really does come down to that Entitlement mentality in the end. Teachers have become like Generational Welfare Recipients. Teachers don't have it nearly as bad as they claim. Just look at all the nice benefits they receive. When is the last time you saw a Welfare Recipient or Teacher say thank you to the Taxpayers? Personally i've never seen that. All i see Teachers & Welfare Recipients doing is whining & complaining and demanding more. I do blame the Democrats for this mentality. People just don't have as much sympathy for Teachers anymore. And Teachers only have themselves to blame for that. They need to stop all the Entitlement stuff and just say thank you to Taxpayers once and awhile. If they keep it up they will be on a road to ruin for sure.


*If teachers really have it so good, then why are half of the teachers in the country quiting in less than 5  years with most of them leaving the teaching profession?  The only thing that keeps the system going is a lot new starry-eyed teachers that think they are going to make a difference.  After a few years of low pay, long hours, indifferent parents, crowed classrooms, and an a non-supportive administration there're gone.

Half of Teachers Quit in 5 Years - washingtonpost.com*


----------



## Chris

LibocalypseNow said:


> Kudos to new Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker!
> 
> More brave Politicians need to start standing up to the corrupt Teacher Unions. The Teacher Unions have brought our Public School System to its knees. It has become all about them. It's all about getting that cash for them. They don't care about the kids anymore. They also only want to force their politics and social experimenting on the kids at this point. Their number one goal these last few decades has been to brainwash the children and create good little future adult Democrats. They stopped teaching the kids the basics of Education a long time ago.
> 
> Teacher Unions now only do far more harm than they do good. It's time for them to go away. The Public School System will be so much better off when they're gone. The Kids could actually start learning again. American kids continue to fall further & further behind other far less developed and less wealthy nations. I do blame the Teacher Unions for this. They have become too obsessed with the cash and creating good little future adult Democrats. They have lost their way. Get rid of the Teacher Unions and our Public School System might just be salvaged.



The best school system in the world, Finland, is 100% unionized.


----------



## chanel

Flopper said:


> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> It really does come down to that Entitlement mentality in the end. Teachers have become like Generational Welfare Recipients. Teachers don't have it nearly as bad as they claim. Just look at all the nice benefits they receive. When is the last time you saw a Welfare Recipient or Teacher say thank you to the Taxpayers? Personally i've never seen that. All i see Teachers & Welfare Recipients doing is whining & complaining and demanding more. I do blame the Democrats for this mentality. People just don't have as much sympathy for Teachers anymore. And Teachers only have themselves to blame for that. They need to stop all the Entitlement stuff and just say thank you to Taxpayers once and awhile. If they keep it up they will be on a road to ruin for sure.
> 
> 
> 
> *If teachers really have it so good, then why are half of the teachers in the country quiting in less than 5  years with most of them leaving the teaching profession?  The only thing that keeps the system going is a lot new starry-eyed teachers that think they are going to make a difference.  After a few years of low pay, long hours, indifferent parents, crowed classrooms, and an a non-supportive administration there're gone.
> 
> Half of Teachers Quit in 5 Years - washingtonpost.com*
Click to expand...


Yep.  And what people don't understand is that tenure is not a "job for life".  Firing a bad teacher is difficult.  Forcing them to quit is quite easy.  It happens ALL the time.


----------



## Article 15

Demonizing teachers and cutting their pay is clearly the way to go if you want to improve our nation's school systems.

I can just sense the line of more quality applicants filling up fast for such a gig.


----------



## chanel




----------



## midcan5

LOL  I had to add my two sense, three sense, no four....

http://www.usmessageboard.com/education/159100-pay-teachers-more.html#post3418935
http://www.usmessageboard.com/educa...ew-of-waiting-for-superman-2.html#post3065163
http://www.usmessageboard.com/education-and-history/108215-education-then-and-now.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/education-and-history/108215-education-then-and-now-2.html#post2074607
http://www.usmessageboard.com/educa...liberals-in-the-classroom-11.html#post1749647


"This is the truth that the Great Education Myth aims to obscure. It's not that schools are ill-equipped to train STEM specialists. It's that the additional students who might boost our STEM workforce are choosing to avoid STEM majors because they see an economy that is more hospitable to careers in Wall Street casinos rather than in high-tech innovation -- a financialized economy based less on creating tangible assets than on encouraging worthless speculation.

This doesn't mean that our education system is perfect. But it does mean that without reforming the trade, tax and regulatory policies that reward high-tech outsourcing and incentivize careers in finance, our schools can never be an engine of value-generating information-age jobs." The neoliberal bait-and-switch - Education - Salon.com


----------



## WorldWatcher

chanel said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> It really does come down to that Entitlement mentality in the end. Teachers have become like Generational Welfare Recipients. Teachers don't have it nearly as bad as they claim. Just look at all the nice benefits they receive. When is the last time you saw a Welfare Recipient or Teacher say thank you to the Taxpayers? Personally i've never seen that. All i see Teachers & Welfare Recipients doing is whining & complaining and demanding more. I do blame the Democrats for this mentality. People just don't have as much sympathy for Teachers anymore. And Teachers only have themselves to blame for that. They need to stop all the Entitlement stuff and just say thank you to Taxpayers once and awhile. If they keep it up they will be on a road to ruin for sure.
> 
> 
> 
> *If teachers really have it so good, then why are half of the teachers in the country quiting in less than 5  years with most of them leaving the teaching profession?  The only thing that keeps the system going is a lot new starry-eyed teachers that think they are going to make a difference.  After a few years of low pay, long hours, indifferent parents, crowed classrooms, and an a non-supportive administration there're gone.
> 
> Half of Teachers Quit in 5 Years - washingtonpost.com*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yep.  And what people don't understand is that tenure is not a "job for life".  Firing a bad teacher is difficult.  Forcing them to quit is quite easy.  It happens ALL the time.
Click to expand...



Yep, and when an employee (teacher or not) quits and is not fired, then they normally will not qualify for unemployment compensation.


>>>>


----------



## Wicked Jester

Article 15 said:


> Demonizing teachers and cutting their pay is clearly the way to go if you want to improve our nation's school systems.
> 
> I can just sense the line of more quality applicants filling up fast for such a gig.


Soooooooo, who's cutting their pay?

I haven't seen their pay cut whatsoever......In fact, they can still CB for pay.

The only teachers who should be demonized are the ones who are lousy. Who abandoned their students in the classroom, thereby shitting all over their students RIGHTS to an education. Thereby causing many parents who are already struggling financially to take time off work at a loss of pay to ensure that their children, who were supposed to be in the classroom exercizing their RIGHT to an eduacation, are safe and taken care of, because those dirtbag teachers shit all over their RIGHTS to an education by abandoning them in the classroom.

And of course, those dirtbag teachers who FRAUDULENTLY submitted FRAUDULENT doctors notes that were FRAUDULENTLY given out by FRAUDULENT doctors in a blatant attempt to DEFRAUD the districts and taxpayers, should be fired forthwit.....And all entities involved in the FRAUDULENT actions should be brought up on FRAUD charges.......Those teachers were only teaching their students, by their own actions, that it's ok to cheat and commit FRAUD.......It's time to right that bullshit, and teach those students that cheating and commiting crimes has serious consequences.

Anybody who believes otherwise, is a fuckin' idiot!


----------



## Samson

Chris said:


> LibocalypseNow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Kudos to new Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker!
> 
> More brave Politicians need to start standing up to the corrupt Teacher Unions. The Teacher Unions have brought our Public School System to its knees. It has become all about them. It's all about getting that cash for them. They don't care about the kids anymore. They also only want to force their politics and social experimenting on the kids at this point. Their number one goal these last few decades has been to brainwash the children and create good little future adult Democrats. They stopped teaching the kids the basics of Education a long time ago.
> 
> Teacher Unions now only do far more harm than they do good. It's time for them to go away. The Public School System will be so much better off when they're gone. The Kids could actually start learning again. American kids continue to fall further & further behind other far less developed and less wealthy nations. I do blame the Teacher Unions for this. They have become too obsessed with the cash and creating good little future adult Democrats. They have lost their way. Get rid of the Teacher Unions and our Public School System might just be salvaged.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The best school system in the world, Finland, is 100% unionized.
Click to expand...




I suppose your point is that you should move to Finland.


----------



## Article 15

Wicked Jester said:


> Article 15 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Demonizing teachers and cutting their pay is clearly the way to go if you want to improve our nation's school systems.
> 
> I can just sense the line of more quality applicants filling up fast for such a gig.
> 
> 
> 
> Soooooooo, who's cutting their pay?
Click to expand...


The State of Wisconsin.  

Idiot.



> I haven't seen their pay cut whatsoever......



That's because you are an uniformed jackass.


----------



## Samson

Article 15 said:


> Demonizing teachers and cutting their pay is clearly the way to go if you want to improve our nation's school systems.
> 
> I can just sense the line of more quality applicants filling up fast for such a gig.



Who is "Demonizing Teachers?"

Thread's about Teacher _*UNIONS*_, or more generally, the Unionization of Public Employees, which is indeed quite corrupting.

As far as "quality applicants filling up fast for such a gig," I might remind you that unions have abolutely no interest in "quality applicants." Wisconsin, for example, where Teacher Unions have held sway, has one of the lowest starting salaries for teachers in the nation.


----------



## Samson

Wicked Jester said:


> Article 15 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Demonizing teachers and cutting their pay is clearly the way to go if you want to improve our nation's school systems.
> 
> I can just sense the line of more quality applicants filling up fast for such a gig.
> 
> 
> 
> Soooooooo, who's cutting their pay?
> 
> I haven't seen their pay cut whatsoever......In fact, they can still CB for pay....
> 
> idiot!
Click to expand...


I was under the impression that their pay had not been touched, but they would be required to pay more into their pension fund (teachers don't get Social Security, and don't pay into it; instead they pay into their own state-run fund), and more into their healthcare funding.

The effect will be that their take-home (net pay) will be less, which could be construed as a "Pay cut."


----------



## Samson

WorldWatcher said:


> chanel said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> *If teachers really have it so good, then why are half of the teachers in the country quiting in less than 5  years with most of them leaving the teaching profession?  The only thing that keeps the system going is a lot new starry-eyed teachers that think they are going to make a difference.  After a few years of low pay, long hours, indifferent parents, crowed classrooms, and an a non-supportive administration there're gone.
> 
> Half of Teachers Quit in 5 Years - washingtonpost.com*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep.  And what people don't understand is that tenure is not a "job for life".  Firing a bad teacher is difficult.  Forcing them to quit is quite easy.  It happens ALL the time.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, and when an employee (teacher or not) quits and is not fired, then they normally will not qualify for unemployment compensation.
> 
> 
> >>>>
Click to expand...


So?

While many quit, it isn't just because they might not like their working conditions, but it may have a lot to do with a better paying job, or for many (females), staying at home with their kids, and for many (males) the need to support a family.

The fact is, that once teachers have been teaching 5 years, most have pretty much peaked-out, and won't be teaching much differently in year 10 than year 6.


----------



## WorldWatcher

Samson said:


> I was under the impression that their pay had not been touched, but they would be required to pay more into their pension fund (teachers don't get Social Security, and don't pay into it; instead they pay into their own state-run fund), and more into their healthcare funding.




You statement about teachers not paying into Social Security isn't factual for all cases.  It varies by State.    

I'm not sure about Wisconsin, but in Virginia there are contributions to BOTH Social Security and the Virginia Retirement System for teachers here.  On the other hand since CALSTRS (California Teachers Retirement System) was established prior to Social Security, they do NOT pay into Social Security.


>>>>


----------



## Samson

WorldWatcher said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was under the impression that their pay had not been touched, but they would be required to pay more into their pension fund (teachers don't get Social Security, and don't pay into it; instead they pay into their own state-run fund), and more into their healthcare funding.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You statement about teachers not paying into Social Security isn't factual for all cases.  It varies by State.
> 
> I'm not sure about Wisconsin, but in Virginia there are contributions to BOTH Social Security and the Virginia Retirement System for teachers here.  On the other hand since CALSTRS (California Teachers Retirement System) was established prior to Social Security, they do NOT pay into Social Security.
> 
> 
> >>>>
Click to expand...


Your probably right, however my point is that we shouldn't assume that teachers' net pay is a result of maximum Federal SS PLUS State retirement fund contributions.

I would be willing to bet that in VA the total retirement contribution is not more than the maximum Federal SS.


----------



## Wicked Jester

Samson said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Article 15 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Demonizing teachers and cutting their pay is clearly the way to go if you want to improve our nation's school systems.
> 
> I can just sense the line of more quality applicants filling up fast for such a gig.
> 
> 
> 
> Soooooooo, who's cutting their pay?
> 
> I haven't seen their pay cut whatsoever......In fact, they can still CB for pay....
> 
> idiot!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I was under the impression that their pay had not been touched, but they would be required to pay more into their pension fund (teachers don't get Social Security, and don't pay into it; instead they pay into their own state-run fund), and more into their healthcare funding.
> 
> The effect will be that their take-home (net pay) will be less, which could be construed as a "Pay cut."
Click to expand...

No, they are investing in themselves so, they didnt' receive a pay cut.

The ''pay cut" angle is propoganda put out by unions and their cronies to give the illusion that they are going to suffer horribly........No, they're not.


----------



## WorldWatcher

Samson said:


> WorldWatcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was under the impression that their pay had not been touched, but they would be required to pay more into their pension fund (teachers don't get Social Security, and don't pay into it; instead they pay into their own state-run fund), and more into their healthcare funding.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You statement about teachers not paying into Social Security isn't factual for all cases.  It varies by State.
> 
> I'm not sure about Wisconsin, but in Virginia there are contributions to BOTH Social Security and the Virginia Retirement System for teachers here.  On the other hand since CALSTRS (California Teachers Retirement System) was established prior to Social Security, they do NOT pay into Social Security.
> 
> 
> >>>>
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your probably right, however my point is that we shouldn't assume that teachers' net pay is a result of maximum Federal SS PLUS State retirement fund contributions.
> 
> I would be willing to bet that in VA the total retirement contribution is not more than the maximum Federal SS.
Click to expand...



Last year the Social Secuirty Tax rate was 6.2%, this year there was temporary "Tax Relief" reducing it to 4.2% for one year and then it will return to 6.2%

This year the combined Virginia Retirement System employer + employee contribution is about 8.5% and next year that will go up 11.5%


Maximum SS contribution limits kick in at (IIRC) $106,000 of earned income.  I can't speak for every school system in Virginia, but in my district about $60,000 tops out the pay scale.




>>>>


----------



## Samson

WorldWatcher said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WorldWatcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> You statement about teachers not paying into Social Security isn't factual for all cases.  It varies by State.
> 
> I'm not sure about Wisconsin, but in Virginia there are contributions to BOTH Social Security and the Virginia Retirement System for teachers here.  On the other hand since CALSTRS (California Teachers Retirement System) was established prior to Social Security, they do NOT pay into Social Security.
> 
> 
> >>>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your probably right, however my point is that we shouldn't assume that teachers' net pay is a result of maximum Federal SS PLUS State retirement fund contributions.
> 
> I would be willing to bet that in VA the total retirement contribution is not more than the maximum Federal SS.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Last year the Social Secuirty Tax rate was 6.2%, this year there was temporary "Tax Relief" reducing it to 4.2% for one year and then it will return to 6.2%
> 
> This year the combined Virginia Retirement System employer + employee contribution is about 8.5% and next year that will go up 11.5%
> 
> 
> 
> >>>>
Click to expand...


"Virginia Retirement System _employer_ ....contribution"...there's an EMPLOYER CONTRIBUTION??? I'm quite shocked.

Virginia is an exceptional state: I also understand the Budget is Balanced.

In Texas and Colorado, Teachers do not pay Federal Social Security, but instead pay into a state retirement fund, and there is no employer contribution. Like SS, there is no choice but to contribute to the state retirement fund.


----------



## Mr. H.

Just found out that a 3rd grade teacher was hired at the school where wife used to work.
The job was never posted.
It was given to a friend of the Principal who attends the same church.
Screw the bastards. 
It's a scam.


----------



## chanel

That sounds illegal Mr H. You should report it.


----------



## Moonglow

LibocalypseNow said:


> The Teacher Unions are the root cause of most of the problems in our Public School System. Too much greed & politics coming from them at this point. They have lost their way. They have neglected the kids for too many years. It's all about them now. Just get more cash and get more Democrats elected. That's all the Teacher Unions are good for these days. They do nothing for the kids anymore. If the Public Schools dropped them,i guarantee things would immediately improve. The kids don't need all this political activism and greed. That stuff never had a place in our Schools. It's actually pretty depressing observing what the Teacher Unions have done to our Public Schools. It really is time for them to just go away.



not all public teachers have unions organized.


----------



## Moonglow

Mr. H. said:


> Just found out that a 3rd grade teacher was hired at the school where wife used to work.
> The job was never posted.
> It was given to a friend of the Principal who attends the same church.
> Screw the bastards.
> It's a scam.



Happens every day in private industry, etc..


----------



## Mr. H.

It's not the first time it's happened and it won't be the last. We moved to another county after she was denied tenure, and the same thing is going on over here. Nepotism and favoritism. 
She sent in a letter of resignation, since they were hoping she would return as an aid (para-professional LOL). Minimum wage yes, but very rewarding work regardless of physical and emotional demands. So she's out of a job, we're out of insurance, and we've both had it with the "educational system'. It's a system all right- well oiled and fraught with fraud. I simply hate the beuracracy, heirarchy, and the fruitless senseless unionization of teachers. It's a goddamn mob operation is what it is.


----------



## Mr. H.

Moonglow said:


> Mr. H. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just found out that a 3rd grade teacher was hired at the school where wife used to work.
> The job was never posted.
> It was given to a friend of the Principal who attends the same church.
> Screw the bastards.
> It's a scam.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Happens every day in private industry, etc..
Click to expand...


Is it as prevalent in private schools?
I've not read through the 500+ posts in this thread. Just blowing off. Pissed as hell.


----------



## LibocalypseNow

Public Unions are contributing very heavily to the death of our Nation. There shouldn't be any Unions allowed in Government. Period,end of story.


----------



## Foxfyre

LibocalypseNow said:


> Public Unions are contributing very heavily to the death of our Nation. There shouldn't be any Unions allowed in Government. Period,end of story.



I don't philosophically have a problem with public unions that are for the purpose of working with personnel/human resources to agree on wage scales, health plans, terms of contracts etc.  We really do want to attract competent and qualified people into public service as much as possible so working conditions need to be adequate.  It is far easier to have spokesperson do the negotiating for large blocks of people rather than have each person negotiate his/her own terms.

But. . . . .

1.  Under no circumstances should federal unions have the contractual right to strike or organize work outages or anything like that and any effort to do that should result in immediate termination of all employees involved.

2.  No public sector employee paid by the tax payer should be paid higher wages than the prevailing wage of the area for the type of work and scope of responsibilities.

3.  The government can set up retirement financial vehicles (401k plans, IRAs) that federal employees can participate in out of their salaries but under no circumstances should any federal employee who leaves government service for any reason be able to draw more than what they paid into their account.  (Ditto for appointed bureaucrats and all elected officials.)

4.  The government can set up a group health plan and similar benefits for those who need that, but the employees should pay the cost of these from their salaries.  That gives the employees strong incentive to not demand more in benefits than what they want to afford and does not obligate the government/tax payer to continue paying the benefits to the employee for life.  (Ditto for appointed bureaucrats and all elected officials.)

Union contracts were no problem until they found a way to make benefits lifetime benefits.  Each new manager or government bureaucrat or elected official didn't care because they would be long gone before the accumulative effects of all that hit the fan.

Well it has hit the fan.  It is a terrible mess to untangle and will be painful, but if we want our country solvent again, it has to be done.


----------



## Chris

Yes, the teachers are the enemy.

Sheesh!

Listen to yourselves.


----------



## MeBelle

Chris said:


> Yes, the teachers are the enemy.
> 
> Shush!
> 
> Listen to yourselves.




Chris, that's not what they are saying!

It's UNIONS who are grabbing power and they don't give a rats butt who gets thrown under the bus just as long as they get what they want. Unions don't look out for the collective group as they claim to. Unions need to get back to reality.

FYI, I have a few unionized members in my immediate family, so I know WTH I am talking about.


----------



## MeBelle

Mr. H. said:


> Just found out that a 3rd grade teacher was hired at the school where wife used to work.
> The job was never posted.
> It was given to a friend of the Principal who attends the same church.
> Screw the bastards.
> It's a scam.




The position may not have needed to be posted if the one hired had seniority and had been layed off.
It all depends on the bargaining unit contract.
They are all different.

If your wife believes she was wronged, then she should file a grievance.


*PS-sorry your wife did not get the job.


----------



## chanel

NJ law states that all public service jobs must be advertised to the public. Obviously a principal has a lot of discretion in who is hired, but there are rules. Our district takes hiring very seriously. Normally there are a series of interviews which include other teachers and the superintendent. If the principal's church friend isn't as qualified, that guy would have some splainin to do. No system is perfect, but there should be some accountability. Mrs. H has met with some bad eggs.


----------



## bodecea

Samson said:


> WorldWatcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your probably right, however my point is that we shouldn't assume that teachers' net pay is a result of maximum Federal SS PLUS State retirement fund contributions.
> 
> I would be willing to bet that in VA the total retirement contribution is not more than the maximum Federal SS.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Last year the Social Secuirty Tax rate was 6.2%, this year there was temporary "Tax Relief" reducing it to 4.2% for one year and then it will return to 6.2%
> 
> This year the combined Virginia Retirement System employer + employee contribution is about 8.5% and next year that will go up 11.5%
> 
> 
> 
> >>>>
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "Virginia Retirement System _employer_ ....contribution"...there's an EMPLOYER CONTRIBUTION??? I'm quite shocked.
> 
> Virginia is an exceptional state: I also understand the Budget is Balanced.
> 
> In Texas and Colorado, Teachers do not pay Federal Social Security, but instead pay into a state retirement fund, and there is no employer contribution. Like SS, there is no choice but to contribute to the state retirement fund.
Click to expand...


Same in CA...they don't get SS...and also, if their husband/wife paid into SS and dies, they STILL don't get SS.


----------



## bodecea

Mr. H. said:


> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. H. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just found out that a 3rd grade teacher was hired at the school where wife used to work.
> The job was never posted.
> It was given to a friend of the Principal who attends the same church.
> Screw the bastards.
> It's a scam.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Happens every day in private industry, etc..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Is it as prevalent in private schools?
> I've not read through the 500+ posts in this thread. Just blowing off. Pissed as hell.
Click to expand...


More so.


----------



## Wicked Jester

bodecea said:


> Mr. H. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Happens every day in private industry, etc..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is it as prevalent in private schools?
> I've not read through the 500+ posts in this thread. Just blowing off. Pissed as hell.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> More so.
Click to expand...

And surely you have the proof to back that up, correct?


----------



## rdean

Republicans say, "And while you are at it teachers, just GO AWAY!"


----------



## MeBelle

rdean said:


> Republicans say, "And while you are at it teachers, just GO AWAY!"



rdean, I have come to the conclusion that you LOVE gasoline....


----------



## Wicked Jester

rdean said:


> Republicans say, "And while you are at it teachers, just GO AWAY!"


Nooooooooo, just the crappy ones......And there are a hell of a lot of 'em out there.


----------



## Flopper

Samson said:


> WorldWatcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> chanel said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep.  And what people don't understand is that tenure is not a "job for life".  Firing a bad teacher is difficult.  Forcing them to quit is quite easy.  It happens ALL the time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, and when an employee (teacher or not) quits and is not fired, then they normally will not qualify for unemployment compensation.
> 
> 
> >>>>
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So?
> 
> While many quit, it isn't just because they might not like their working conditions, but it may have a lot to do with a better paying job, or for many (females), staying at home with their kids, and for many (males) the need to support a family.
> 
> The fact is, that once teachers have been teaching 5 years, most have pretty much peaked-out, and won't be teaching much differently in year 10 than year 6.
Click to expand...

I taught for two years and left the profession.  I could not see a real career path.  It's pretty much of a dead end job unless you really love teaching.  In the district I taught, it took 10 to 15 years and at least a masters to be considered for an assistant principal position, which I consider one of the worst jobs in education unless you love to handle discipline cases all day.  If you survive that for 5 years and maybe get another degree, then you might be in line for a principalship.  However, you probably would be making less money than the electrician I hired last week.


----------



## bodecea

Wicked Jester said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. H. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is it as prevalent in private schools?
> I've not read through the 500+ posts in this thread. Just blowing off. Pissed as hell.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More so.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And surely you have the proof to back that up, correct?
Click to expand...


Experience.   But feel free to prove me wrong.


----------



## Wicked Jester

bodecea said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> More so.
> 
> 
> 
> And surely you have the proof to back that up, correct?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Experience.   But feel free to prove me wrong.
Click to expand...

Nooooooooo, you made the claim, now back it up.


----------



## bodecea

Wicked Jester said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> And surely you have the proof to back that up, correct?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Experience.   But feel free to prove me wrong.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nooooooooo, you made the claim, now back it up.
Click to expand...


Tell you what....show me the laws that PREVENT cronyism in PRIVATE school hiring....as we see in public school hiring.


----------



## Chris

In  what may be the result of one of the great political miscalculations of our time, Scott Walker&#8217;s popularity in his home state is fast going down the tubes.

A Rasmussen poll out today reveals that almost 60% of likely Wisconsin voters now disapprove of their aggressive governor&#8217;s performance, with 48% strongly disapproving.

While these numbers are clearly indicators of a strategy gone horribly wrong, there are some additional findings in the poll that I suspect deserve even greater attention.

It turns out that the state&#8217;s public school teachers are very popular with their fellow Badgers. With 77% of those polled holding a high opinion of their educators, it is not particularly surprising that only 32% among households with children in the public school system approve of the governor&#8217;s performance. Sixty-seven percent (67%) disapprove, including 54% who strongly disapprove.

Can anyone imagine a politician succeeding with numbers like this among people who have kids?

Gov. Scott Walker Has Lost The War - Forbes


----------



## Wicked Jester

bodecea said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> Experience.   But feel free to prove me wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> Nooooooooo, you made the claim, now back it up.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Tell you what....show me the laws that PREVENT cronyism in PRIVATE school hiring....as we see in public school hiring.
Click to expand...

Tell you what....Show me the proof of the claim you made......You made the claim, back it up with solid evidence........Surely you have evidence beyond the lame, "Experience", or you wouldn't have the made the claim.


----------



## bodecea

Wicked Jester said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nooooooooo, you made the claim, now back it up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tell you what....show me the laws that PREVENT cronyism in PRIVATE school hiring....as we see in public school hiring.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Tell you what....Show me the proof of the claim you made......You made the claim, back it up with solid evidence........Surely you have evidence beyond the lame, "Experience", or you wouldn't have the made the claim.
Click to expand...


Case one....friend of mine applied at a PRivate military academy in Southern San Diego Co....had credentials for job and everything.   Army buddy of dept head was hired...they held job with subs til he got out.

Case two...another friend of mine moved to the Bay area and applied first at local private schools since many of them were year round at the time.   Every one said they would only pick people from their own church congregations, approved by THEIR pastor...nothing was ever said about eduational qualifications...only church approval qualifications.

Now...in Mr. H's situation he described earlier.....what recourse would he have in a Private School setting?  

Tell us.


----------



## Wicked Jester

bodecea said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tell you what....show me the laws that PREVENT cronyism in PRIVATE school hiring....as we see in public school hiring.
> 
> 
> 
> Tell you what....Show me the proof of the claim you made......You made the claim, back it up with solid evidence........Surely you have evidence beyond the lame, "Experience", or you wouldn't have the made the claim.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Case one....friend of mine applied at a PRivate military academy in Southern San Diego Co....had credentials for job and everything.   Army buddy of dept head was hired...they held job with subs til he got out.
> 
> Case two...another friend of mine moved to the Bay area and applied first at local private schools since many of them were year round at the time.   Every one said they would only pick people from their own church congregations, approved by THEIR pastor...nothing was ever said about eduational qualifications...only church approval qualifications.
> 
> Now...in Mr. H's situation he described earlier.....what recourse would he have in a Private School setting?
> 
> Tell us.
Click to expand...

You saying it doesn't make it true.......We have to take your history up here into account whenever YOU make a claim.

Hell, I have two friends who were the presidents of 18 countries all at the same time. They each had three heads and 4 tails.........Really, it's true.

Now, provide solid evidence of what you claimed.


----------



## bodecea

Wicked Jester said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tell you what....Show me the proof of the claim you made......You made the claim, back it up with solid evidence........Surely you have evidence beyond the lame, "Experience", or you wouldn't have the made the claim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Case one....friend of mine applied at a PRivate military academy in Southern San Diego Co....had credentials for job and everything.   Army buddy of dept head was hired...they held job with subs til he got out.
> 
> Case two...another friend of mine moved to the Bay area and applied first at local private schools since many of them were year round at the time.   Every one said they would only pick people from their own church congregations, approved by THEIR pastor...nothing was ever said about eduational qualifications...only church approval qualifications.
> 
> Now...in Mr. H's situation he described earlier.....what recourse would he have in a Private School setting?
> 
> Tell us.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *You saying it doesn't make it true*.......We have to take your history up here into account whenever YOU make a claim.
> 
> Hell, I have two friends who were the presidents of 18 countries all at the same time. They each had three heads and 4 tails.........Really, it's true.
> 
> Now, provide solid evidence of what you claimed.
Click to expand...


Doesn't make it NOT true either.    

So...show us what laws are in place to make sure cronyism cannot take place in private school hiring?    Show us the legal repercussions available in a situation like Mr. H described if it's a private school.

It's quite simple...when laws are in place to prevent cronyism, it is less likely to happen.   When procedures are NOT in place to report hiring cronyism it is MORE likely to happen.


----------



## bodecea

Mr. H. said:


> Just found out that a 3rd grade teacher was hired at the school where wife used to work.
> The job was never posted.
> It was given to a friend of the Principal who attends the same church.
> Screw the bastards.
> It's a scam.



Private school?   NO legal recourse.

Public school?   Your wife can file a grievance.


----------



## Foxfyre

Personally I think private and parochial schools are as good as they are because they CAN kick out kids that refuse to learn or who are disruptive to everybody else's education.  The public schools should do the same.  Parents who will not discipline their kids and teach them a value system and a code of conduct should be required to make whatever arrangements are necessary to educate their kids but the taxpayer shouldn't be on the hook for that.

I think private and parochial schools are as good as they are because they can hire the people they want to teach the kids and they generally choose the creme de la creme.  Because they rarely pay as well as public schools, the teachers they hire are almost always true educators, dedicated to using real skills and knowledge to benefit the children, and pleased to be in an environment in which they can do that even if they don't earn as much as government teachers.  Certainly a parochial school will hire people who will teach the religion, ethics, and concepts as that particular denomination believes it.
'
In many/most places the public schools were once just as good.  The federal government and the unions have made them into the dysfunctional institutions that many of them now are.


----------



## Wicked Jester

bodecea said:


> Wicked Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> 
> Case one....friend of mine applied at a PRivate military academy in Southern San Diego Co....had credentials for job and everything.   Army buddy of dept head was hired...they held job with subs til he got out.
> 
> Case two...another friend of mine moved to the Bay area and applied first at local private schools since many of them were year round at the time.   Every one said they would only pick people from their own church congregations, approved by THEIR pastor...nothing was ever said about eduational qualifications...only church approval qualifications.
> 
> Now...in Mr. H's situation he described earlier.....what recourse would he have in a Private School setting?
> 
> Tell us.
> 
> 
> 
> *You saying it doesn't make it true*.......We have to take your history up here into account whenever YOU make a claim.
> 
> Hell, I have two friends who were the presidents of 18 countries all at the same time. They each had three heads and 4 tails.........Really, it's true.
> 
> Now, provide solid evidence of what you claimed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Doesn't make it NOT true either.
> 
> So...show us what laws are in place to make sure cronyism cannot take place in private school hiring?    Show us the legal repercussions available in a situation like Mr. H described if it's a private school.
> 
> It's quite simple...when laws are in place to prevent cronyism, it is less likely to happen.   When procedures are NOT in place to report hiring cronyism it is MORE likely to happen.
Click to expand...

No, you said it happens "more so" in private schools........Prove it!


----------



## Wicked Jester

Foxfyre said:


> Personally I think private and parochial schools are as good as they are because they CAN kick out kids that refuse to learn or who are disruptive to everybody else's education.  The public schools should do the same.  Parents who will not discipline their kids and teach them a value system and a code of conduct should be required to make whatever arrangements are necessary to educate their kids but the taxpayer shouldn't be on the hook for that.
> 
> I think private and parochial schools are as good as they are because they can hire the people they want to teach the kids and they generally choose the creme de la creme.  Because they rarely pay as well as public schools, the teachers they hire are almost always true educators, dedicated to using real skills and knowledge to benefit the children, and pleased to be in an environment in which they can do that even if they don't earn as much as government teachers.  Certainly a parochial school will hire people who will teach the religion, ethics, and concepts as that particular denomination believes it.
> '
> In many/most places the public schools were once just as good.  The federal government and the unions have made them into the dysfunctional institutions that many of them now are.


The hiring standards for our kids private school is rigorous, to say the least.

The experience has to be there. Knowledge of the subjects they teach must be there. They are rigorously tested on those subjects. They are rigorously tested on their ability to teach, in real time, in front of the Chancellor and faculty.

Cronyism does not happen.....It can't happen if the school  wants to maintain its excellence. That school will not exist if they fall to public school standards. Parents will not invest their money to send their kids to a crappy school with subpar teachers.......And that's exactly why the students are far and above what the public schools produce.


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## Foxfyre

Wicked Jester said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> Personally I think private and parochial schools are as good as they are because they CAN kick out kids that refuse to learn or who are disruptive to everybody else's education.  The public schools should do the same.  Parents who will not discipline their kids and teach them a value system and a code of conduct should be required to make whatever arrangements are necessary to educate their kids but the taxpayer shouldn't be on the hook for that.
> 
> I think private and parochial schools are as good as they are because they can hire the people they want to teach the kids and they generally choose the creme de la creme.  Because they rarely pay as well as public schools, the teachers they hire are almost always true educators, dedicated to using real skills and knowledge to benefit the children, and pleased to be in an environment in which they can do that even if they don't earn as much as government teachers.  Certainly a parochial school will hire people who will teach the religion, ethics, and concepts as that particular denomination believes it.
> '
> In many/most places the public schools were once just as good.  The federal government and the unions have made them into the dysfunctional institutions that many of them now are.
> 
> 
> 
> The hiring standards for our kids private school is rigorous, to say the least.
> 
> The experience has to be there. Knowledge of the subjects they teach must be there. They are rigorously tested on those subjects. They are rigorously tested on their ability to teach, in real time, in front of the Chancellor and faculty.
> 
> Cronyism does not happen.....It can't happen if the school  wants to maintain its excellence. That school will not exist if they fall to public school standards. Parents will not invest their money to send their kids to a crappy school with subpar teachers.......And that's exactly why the students are far and above what the public schools produce.
Click to expand...


That's pretty much the story at Albuquerque Academy, a private school near where we live.  Absolutely par excellent.  My kids are out of college and doing well now, but if I had a schoolage kid now I would work three or more jobs if I had to in order to send him to a school comparable to it.  Or I would homeschool.

Probably most of us at some time or other were able to get a foot in the door, get an interview, or otherwise get a leg up because we knew somebody in an organization we wanted to work for.  But we still had to pass the requisite exams  and/or accomplish ourselves in the interview and our experience and references had to hold up under scrutiny.  That isn't cronyism.  That's just being preceded by your reputation.

Cronyism is not giving anybody a chance except for your own group or circle and hiring based on who somebody is instead of what they have done and can do.


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