# Somali Terrorists/Pirates Murder The Four Americans



## HUGGY (Feb 22, 2011)

When will we put an end to this bullshit?


Somali Pirates Murder 4 Americans - HUMAN EVENTS


Should we destroy all Somali watercraft capable of going out into the ocean?


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## rightwinger (Feb 22, 2011)

Horrible to hear.....I feel sorry for the poor family

Need to start harassing all the "fishermen"


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## HUGGY (Feb 22, 2011)

Two of the four were from Seattle.


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## High_Gravity (Feb 22, 2011)

No one is doing to do anything because the Pirates are Muslims.


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## High_Gravity (Feb 22, 2011)

If the Pirates were Christians or Jews the Iranians would send their war ships to Somalia not the Suez canal.


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## Mr. H. (Feb 22, 2011)

Take the surviving pirates, fly them over downtown Somalia, and toss them overboard. That w/send an effective message.


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## Sallow (Feb 22, 2011)

rightwinger said:


> Horrible to hear.....I feel sorry for the poor family
> 
> Need to start harassing all the "fishermen"



Strafing a few pirate boats should convince them that this probably is not going to be a lucrative as they thought.


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## High_Gravity (Feb 22, 2011)

Sallow said:


> rightwinger said:
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> > Horrible to hear.....I feel sorry for the poor family
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I wonder how the Russians and Chinese would handle these Pirates?


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## westwall (Feb 22, 2011)

High_Gravity said:


> Sallow said:
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They would sink them.  The whole world should declare open season on pirates everwhere.  No trial just sink the boats and sail away.  Let the sharks determine who's innocent.


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## High_Gravity (Feb 22, 2011)

westwall said:


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Everyone should work together the Chinese, Americans, Russians, English etc and fuck these Pirates up. Right now all their doing is playing defense and letting the Pirates run offense and dictate the tempo of the game.


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## High_Gravity (Feb 22, 2011)

I think open war on the pirates would require boots on the ground in Somalia though, and thats what people want to avoid.


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## westwall (Feb 22, 2011)

High_Gravity said:


> I think open war on the pirates would require boots on the ground in Somalia though, and thats what people want to avoid.






No, a Spruance or a Ticonderoga class destroyer could patrol the whole coast fairly well.  The helicopters on board would need to be rigged to shoot hellfire missiles and then you just take a good look at the boats and those that have armed people on them get sunk.  Quick and simple.  Pretty soon there wouldn't be very many seaworthy boats left and the problem would stop.  The key is to kill them, this BS of arresting them and bringing them back for trial is stupid.  Just sink them.


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## High_Gravity (Feb 22, 2011)

westwall said:


> High_Gravity said:
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> > I think open war on the pirates would require boots on the ground in Somalia though, and thats what people want to avoid.
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We would have to go to the source though right? the pirates plan everything in Somalia and do all their training and readiness there, how could we defeat them without going into Somalia?


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## HUGGY (Feb 22, 2011)

High_Gravity said:


> I think open war on the pirates would require boots on the ground in Somalia though, and thats what people want to avoid.



There is no need to set foot in that shit hole.  Just sink all their fucking boats from the air.  It is unfortunate for the legitimate fisherman but when one considers how many pirates are operating there, HUNDREDS of them, the fisherman have doomed themselves by allowing it to happen.  All they would have to do is rat out the bad guys to U S authorities describing who the pirates are and what vessels they operate.  They deserve the same fate as the Taliban for harboring these assholes.


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## westwall (Feb 22, 2011)

High_Gravity said:


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Nope, never have to set foot in the place like Huggy says.  Use high powered optics to spy out the contents of the boat, also you would get to use UAV's so frequently the bad guys wouldn't know what was happening till the helicopter showed up and fired.  Heck even the ship could get in some 5" gun practice if it wanted to.  Stand off at a range of a mile and let fly, the pirates couldn't touch the ship and the ship could just blast away with impunity.


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## High_Gravity (Feb 22, 2011)

HUGGY said:


> High_Gravity said:
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> > I think open war on the pirates would require boots on the ground in Somalia though, and thats what people want to avoid.
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If its that easy I am with it, I just think as long as their free to roam in Somalia and arm themselves, they won't quit. Think about it, Somalia is a shit hole and offers nothing, I would be a fucking pirate too if I lived there, what else is there? Al Shabab? Pirates? and what else? beggar?


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## xsited1 (Feb 22, 2011)

HUGGY said:


> When will we put an end to this bullshit?
> 
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> Somali Pirates Murder 4 Americans - HUMAN EVENTS
> ...



Three days ago the US Government was mulling over what to do about this.  I guess they were trying to figure out what the politically correct Rules of Engagement should be.  Too late.


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## The Infidel (Feb 22, 2011)

Mr. H. said:


> Take the surviving pirates, fly them over downtown Somalia, and toss them overboard. That w/send an effective message.


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## The Infidel (Feb 22, 2011)

Mr. H. said:


> Take the surviving pirates, fly them over downtown Somalia, and toss them overboard. That w/send an effective message.




This WILL send a straight up message.... FUCK WITH US... WE FUCK WITH YOU.


High_Gravity said:


> westwall said:
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This idea is fun, but how do we know what boats are "pirates" and what boats are just innocent fishermen?

We already have a name that rhymes with mudd over there and frankly everywhere.... the previous method makes for sure the bad guys are weeded out. 
YES, we will lose some innocents like these four individuals.... but after a while, the message will be crystal clear..... YOU WILL DIE if you get caught pirating on the high seas.


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## High_Gravity (Feb 22, 2011)

The Infidel said:


> Mr. H. said:
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> > Take the surviving pirates, fly them over downtown Somalia, and toss them overboard. That w/send an effective message.
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If America starts throwing Somalis out of airplanes and blowing up pirate boasts off the Somali coast we will be demonized even more, remember, the pirates are Muslims.


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## The Infidel (Feb 22, 2011)

High_Gravity said:


> If America starts throwing Somalis out of airplanes and blowing up pirate boasts off the Somali coast we will be demonized even more, remember, the pirates are Muslims.



I can live with that 

As long as we know its a boat full of pirates..... sink it!

Let God sort em out, and the sharks eat em alive I guess. 


I still like the idea of little skinny dumbasses raining down on Samolian cities....


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## High_Gravity (Feb 22, 2011)

The Infidel said:


> High_Gravity said:
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> > If America starts throwing Somalis out of airplanes and blowing up pirate boasts off the Somali coast we will be demonized even more, remember, the pirates are Muslims.
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I agree but pictures of Muslims being thrown out of US Airplanes over Mogadishu is a PR nightmare, never gonna happen.


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## The Infidel (Feb 22, 2011)

High_Gravity said:


> I agree but pictures of Muslims being thrown out of US Airplanes over Mogadishu is a PR nightmare, never gonna happen.



Lets do it at night then.....



Im dreaming for a minute damn it.... leave me alone!


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## High_Gravity (Feb 22, 2011)

The Infidel said:


> High_Gravity said:
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> > I agree but pictures of Muslims being thrown out of US Airplanes over Mogadishu is a PR nightmare, never gonna happen.
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We don't even have the nerve to follow the Taliban into Pakistan, and we are fighting a war with them. The US is not going to do anything with the Somalis.


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## The Infidel (Feb 22, 2011)

Im still fantacizing.....


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## High_Gravity (Feb 22, 2011)

The Infidel said:


> Im still fantacizing.....



I think its a great idea though.


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## The Infidel (Feb 22, 2011)

High_Gravity said:


> The Infidel said:
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 me too


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## MikeK (Feb 22, 2011)

What about putting a few armored decoy boats in that region with hidden crewmen armed with disguised sniper ports, .50 machine guns and rocket launchers?  Is that a practical idea?


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## westwall (Feb 22, 2011)

High_Gravity said:


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You can't lay hands on them.  If you do you have to follow the laws of the land.  If you just sink them no one would care who matters.  In fact most would be happy with us.


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## westwall (Feb 22, 2011)

MikeK said:


> What about putting a few armored decoy boats in that region with hidden crewmen armed with disguised sniper ports, .50 machine guns and rocket launchers?  Is that a practical idea?






Why put people in harms way?  Just fly over with a UAV, spot the pirates with the guns, sink boat.  Problem solved.


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## MikeK (Feb 22, 2011)

westwall said:


> MikeK said:
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> > What about putting a few armored decoy boats in that region with hidden crewmen armed with disguised sniper ports, .50 machine guns and rocket launchers?  Is that a practical idea?
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I have no problem with that as long as you're sure who you're killing.  But I understand that a lot of those small boats are ordinary fishermen and I'm kind of inhibited about harming innocent people.


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## The Infidel (Feb 22, 2011)

I still like the idea of little skinny dumbasses raining down on Samolian cities....


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## hipeter924 (Feb 22, 2011)

The Infidel said:


> I still like the idea of little skinny dumbasses raining down on Samolian cities....


With free fish...


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## The Infidel (Feb 22, 2011)

Hell... I'll pay for a lobster or two


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## westwall (Feb 23, 2011)

MikeK said:


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As am I, however with a UAV you can monitor them long enough to make a pos ID without them seeing what's going on.  When they don't know they're being watched it's pretty easy to see what they're up to.


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## Blagger (Feb 23, 2011)

Firstly, allow me to offer my condolences to the families of these young men. 

Secondly, allow me to put my position across.

The argument that these young men in some way deserved what they got because they were sailing through a notoriously risky stretch of ocean no longer applies in this case, and another recent case involving a British couple. Paul and Rachel Chandler spent just over a year in captivity in Somalia after their boat was hi-jacked by Somali pirates. The British public spent the whole year watching their pleas for help inside Somalia, whilst at the backs of their minds (myself included), they were thinking: you bloody fools. You've only got your stupid selves to blame for the mess you're in. After their release it transpired through official channels that they'd been sailing in a part on the Indian ocean what was widely thought to be beyond the reach of Somali pirates. The Chandlers were in fact, according to the Seychelles coast guard, a long, long way from the Somali coast. Basically, it would now seem that the entire western half of the Indian ocean is within reach of Somali pirates; who are no longer just darting-out from coastal inlets, but are now operating from ocean-going motherships equiped with sophisticated tracking and communication equipment.

I'm with Westwall in terms of how we, US, UK (predictably, we always seem to have to sort this kind of thing out) should deal with this menace. UAV's, pure and simple. Helicopters are out of the question as they're too big, not to mention they make a lot of noise. UAV's can stay in the area for a prolonged period of time and in doing so can establish who's up to no good and who is just fishing the sea. The UAV can then track a confirmed suspect back to their mothership or shore base and then either drop a bomb on the pirates or direct a commando unit to their location. Oh, and arrest these scumbags? Please, all that'll happen to them is they'll rebound around the already unclear legal framework that deals with criminals captured in international water and be set free after it's obvious that no-one wants to take responsibility for them.

Oh, and just one last thing, I promise. If, for whatever reason, you need to navigate a dangerous stretch of water; whether it be off the coast of Venezuala or the Somali coast, do so in a vessel that's fast enough to make an escape; and for pity's sake, at least have a reliable 12-guage on board or a couple of handguns. Because if I were off the Somali coast, and Mohammed and Ishmail drew-up alongside one night, they'd both get a face full of buckshot!


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## Ropey (Feb 23, 2011)

Swagger said:


> and for pity's sake, at least have a reliable 12-guage on board or a couple of handguns. Because if I were off the Somali coast, and Mohammed and Ishmail drew-up alongside one night, they'd both get a face full of buckshot!



Against RPG's?

That's bringing a knife to a gun fight.


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## Blagger (Feb 23, 2011)

Ropey said:


> Swagger said:
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> > and for pity's sake, at least have a reliable 12-guage on board or a couple of handguns. Because if I were off the Somali coast, and Mohammed and Ishmail drew-up alongside one night, they'd both get a face full of buckshot!
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The gist of the section of post you've quoted me on is that you should at least have a potent enough firearm on-board that is capable of repelling a boarding party, or in the case of a shotgun, keeping them at bay.

I am fully aware that these animals have access to old Soviet hardware, and that a conventional firearm will no-doubt do little to dissuade a determined, and more heavily armed, group of hi-jackers. What I'm basically trying to say, is that some protection/preperation is better than none at all. Although it's worth remembering that RPG's are only ever used against tankers. In that they threaten to launch a rocket-propelled grenade at a hull that is shielding an often volatile cargo. It's a persuasion technique that would prove futile against a smaller vessel, but I wouldn't rule-out a hostage-taking scenario at sea involving RPG's altogether.


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## Kalam (Feb 23, 2011)

There was no piracy when the Islamic Courts Union was in power. 

Funny how foreign interventionism (mostly Ethiopian in this case) in that part of the world seems to always lead to negative consequences for everyone.


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## Sunni Man (Feb 23, 2011)

Kalam said:


> There was no piracy when the Islamic Courts Union was in power.
> 
> Funny how foreign interventionism (mostly Ethiopian in this case) in that part of the world seems to always lead to negative consequences for everyone.



The Ethiopians are only doing what their CIA/Mossad handlers tell them to do.


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## HUGGY (Feb 23, 2011)

Kalam said:


> There was no piracy when the Islamic Courts Union was in power.
> 
> Funny how foreign interventionism (mostly Ethiopian in this case) in that part of the world seems to always lead to negative consequences for everyone.



I don't give a rats ass who these fucks are affiliated with.  I'm not even really that concerned with people that go into foreign countries and get abducted for ransom.  There are plenty of travel warnings to keep innocents out of those places.

It is the duty of the Navy of the USA to protect Americans on ALL international waters.  If there is Muslim blow back for taking out this scum...so be it.  We can deal that too.  

All I see on the news for the last few days are Muslims whining that Obama hasn't supported the revolutions in the several Muslim countries that have finally after 30 plus years got off their third world asses and decided to govern themselves.  

Even you Muslims support American exceptional ism or we wouldn't be hearing about how we should be supporting your wanna be democracies.  We do but it is really your responsibility.

There is more to America than what you may believe.  We are not George Bush...We are not Barack Obama.  They are just temporary custodians of the administrative portion of our government.  

What we are is what the people of our country want it to be for the most part.  It isn't perfect but it certainly is the only serious power on the planet that keeps the rest of the world from totally going down the toilet.

We are by far the most tolerant nation on earth ...especially considering that we do not HAVE to be.  At the very least the rest of the world should recognize that we Americans at the very fucking least deserve safe passage on all international waters.  If we need to enforce that concept then that is the way it should be.


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## westwall (Feb 23, 2011)

Kalam said:


> There was no piracy when the Islamic Courts Union was in power.
> 
> Funny how foreign interventionism (mostly Ethiopian in this case) in that part of the world seems to always lead to negative consequences for everyone.







Utter BS.  There has NEVER been a time when there was no piracy except under the Romans when they swept the entire Med and killed every pirate they found...and that period only lasted about a year.


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## High_Gravity (Feb 23, 2011)

HUGGY said:


> All I see on the news for the last few days are Muslims whining that Obama hasn't supported the revolutions in the several Muslim countries that have finally after 30 plus years got off their third world asses and decided to govern themselves.
> 
> Even you Muslims support American exceptional ism or we wouldn't be hearing about how we should be supporting your wanna be democracies.  We do but it is really your responsibility.



Americans are damned if we do, damned if we don't. I don't see how America is responsible for Ghaddafi being an asshole, why the Egyptians don't have jobs and why Yemen doesn't have a pot to piss in. If Obama did support the uprisings, people would say he is intervening too much. Obama doesn't get involved, and people say hes an asshole.


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## Kalam (Feb 23, 2011)

HUGGY said:


> All I see on the news for the last few days are Muslims whining that Obama hasn't supported the revolutions in the several Muslim countries that have finally after 30 plus years got off their third world asses and decided to govern themselves.
> 
> Even you Muslims support American exceptional ism or we wouldn't be hearing about how we should be supporting your wanna be democracies.  We do but it is really your responsibility.



What? No, I'd much prefer that the US and everyone else keep out of the affairs of the Muslim world entirely. 

Instead of allowing a legitimate government to remain in power and restore order in Somalia, the United States and its allies choose instead to interfere in that country's internal affairs. the ICU is no longer in power and now people are experiencing one of the consequences of the lawlessness that this interventionism brought on -- piracy. Tough luck.


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## Kalam (Feb 23, 2011)

westwall said:


> Utter BS.  There has NEVER been a time when there was no piracy except under the Romans when they swept the entire Med and killed every pirate they found...and that period only lasted about a year.



Take it up with the CFR.

_*"Experts unanimously stress that the only effective long-term piracy deterrent is a stable state. When Somalia was briefly under the control of the Islamic Courts Union in 2006, piracy stopped completely."*_

Combating Maritime Piracy - Council on Foreign Relations


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## High_Gravity (Feb 23, 2011)

Kalam said:


> HUGGY said:
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There have been no American troops in Somalia since 1993. How is America to blame for the anarchy in Somalia?


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## Kalam (Feb 23, 2011)

High_Gravity said:


> There have been no American troops in Somalia since 1993. How is America to blame for the anarchy in Somalia?



The United States has launched air strikes and provided support for the Ethiopians and other belligerents whose interference ensured that Somalia would remain lawless. I've never stated that they're solely to blame for anything we're discussing.


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## High_Gravity (Feb 23, 2011)

Kalam said:


> High_Gravity said:
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Somalia has become a safe haven for Al Qaeda Militants, thats why there are air strikes. Still don't see how the Ethiopians and Americans are to blame for the Somalis own failures.


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## Kalam (Feb 23, 2011)

High_Gravity said:


> Somalia has become a safe haven for Al Qaeda Militants, thats why there are air strikes. Still don't see how the Ethiopians and Americans are to blame for the Somalis own failures.



Now that Somalia is once again in an anarchic state, Qa'idah affiliates like ash-Shabaab have risen to the forefront of the resistance. A lack of authority has led to an increase in both piracy and 'terrorist activity', so I'd say that foreign intervention has done far more to exacerbate the country's problems than it has to address them.


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## High_Gravity (Feb 23, 2011)

Kalam said:


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> > Somalia has become a safe haven for Al Qaeda Militants, thats why there are air strikes. Still don't see how the Ethiopians and Americans are to blame for the Somalis own failures.
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Once again? Somalia has been in choas since 1991 when they overthrew their President.


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## Kalam (Feb 23, 2011)

High_Gravity said:


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Refer to the CFR quote in one of my earlier posts. The ICU had authority over most of the country at one point.


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## High_Gravity (Feb 23, 2011)

Kalam said:


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Obviously not enough if they got chased back by the Ethiopians, plus isn't the northern part of Somalia peaceful and asking to be their own country?


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## Kalam (Feb 23, 2011)

High_Gravity said:


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...The Ethiopians along with dissident groups, the United States, and AMISOM.

Somaliland? They reportedly fight alongside ash-Shabaab.

allAfrica.com: Somalia: Somaliland 'Loots' Air Cargo After Plane Makes Emergency Landing


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## High_Gravity (Feb 23, 2011)

Doesn't look like Somaliland likes the Shabab too much.

Somaliland Arrests Ten Al-shabab Suspects



> Ten suspected Al-shabab members were arrested in a joint security operation that was carried out by Somaliland and American security officials in Burao, the capital of Togder region.
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> The operation was carried out last night in a special manner as airplanes and other military equipments were used.
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http://www.bar-kulan.com/2011/01/15/somaliland-arrests-ten-al-shabab-suspects/


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## Sunni Man (Feb 23, 2011)

High_Gravity said:


> Obviously not enough if they got chased back by the Ethiopians, plus isn't the northern part of Somalia peaceful and asking to be their own country?


Both Punt Land in the north and Somali Land in the south want to become independent.

But outside forces and governments insist that all of Somali be just one country with the capitol in central Mogadishu.


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## westwall (Feb 23, 2011)

Kalam said:


> westwall said:
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> > Utter BS.  There has NEVER been a time when there was no piracy except under the Romans when they swept the entire Med and killed every pirate they found...and that period only lasted about a year.
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Piracy is rampant in Malaysia as well if you havn't heard.  Has been for the last 500 years.


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## westwall (Feb 23, 2011)

Kalam said:


> High_Gravity said:
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> > Somalia has become a safe haven for Al Qaeda Militants, thats why there are air strikes. Still don't see how the Ethiopians and Americans are to blame for the Somalis own failures.
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Resistance to what preytell?  Sanity?  There is no government to resist.  Instead you are looking at a bunch of individual warlords who are fighting over their particular patch of ground.  Kind of like the warlord period of China.  Only some of the Chinese actually were competent, unlike the morons in Somalia.


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## High_Gravity (Feb 23, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> High_Gravity said:
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Why though? if those guys have their shit together and can function as a country, I say let them. I wouldn't want anything to do with Somalia either if I were them.


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## Sunni Man (Feb 23, 2011)

westwall said:


> Resistance to what preytell?  Sanity?  There is no government to resist.  Instead you are looking at a bunch of individual warlords who are fighting over their particular patch of ground.  Kind of like the warlord period of China.  Only some of the Chinese actually were competent, unlike the morons in Somalia.


Seems like the Somali fighters beat the American Military and chased them out of Somalia.


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## High_Gravity (Feb 23, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> westwall said:
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> > Resistance to what preytell?  Sanity?  There is no government to resist.  Instead you are looking at a bunch of individual warlords who are fighting over their particular patch of ground.  Kind of like the warlord period of China.  Only some of the Chinese actually were competent, unlike the morons in Somalia.
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How?


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## Sunni Man (Feb 23, 2011)

High_Gravity said:


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The African Union troops AMISOM backed by the West is behind the puppet Somali government based in Mogadishu.

Who is refusing to allow the north and south to break away.


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## High_Gravity (Feb 23, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


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Thats crazy, if the North and South can function on their own they should let them, maybe Somalia itself needs to be torn into separate countries.


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## Ropey (Feb 23, 2011)

westwall said:


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This is why discussion with Kalam yields little value.  Obfuscation, minimization and context thread removal is his forte.

He will run from every act on the earth to push forward his philosophical Islam whilst human beings on the ground suffer the deleterious effects of Islams clerics worldwide.

Rather useless.  What happens will happen and these events will continue and increase in severity. By their acts shall they be known and by the responses shall they be held to account here on Earth.

Both will increase until one overpowers the other. I believe that the Western philosophy is strong enough to defeat the foe.


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## Sunni Man (Feb 23, 2011)

HG the mosque that I attend is about 60% Somali

So I hear the problems first hand.  

Somali was at one time a unified nation.

But after the divide and conquer tactics of the Italians in the north and British in the south during the colonial period of th last century.

Somalia devolved into tribal based areas and internecine warfare.

While being exploited economically by their European masters.

And have never recovered their sense of national identity.


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## The Infidel (Feb 23, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> HG the mosque that I attend is about 60% Somali
> 
> So I hear the problems first hand.
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So killing four innocent Americans was OK?


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## High_Gravity (Feb 23, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> HG the mosque that I attend is about 60% Somali
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> So I hear the problems first hand.
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That is sad to hear, many African nations have similar problems. I just hope Somaliland and the other part in the South get their independence.


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## Sunni Man (Feb 23, 2011)

The Infidel said:


> So killing four innocent Americans was OK?


No retard, it isn't OK


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## Ropey (Feb 23, 2011)

Remove them and no problem Sunni Man. Like you said to do to the worlds Jews. Remember?

Keep them on an island by force of arms? 

Oh, but this is poor Muslims mistreated by Christians?


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## Sunni Man (Feb 23, 2011)

High_Gravity said:


> That is sad to hear, many African nations have similar problems. I just hope Somaliland and the other part in the South get their independence.


Somalia has a lot of natural resources which other countries are exploiting at the expense of the Somali people.

So there are many outside economic and political forces who are benefiting by keeping the government weak and the nation in turmoil.


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## Ropey (Feb 23, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> The Infidel said:
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> > So killing four innocent Americans was OK?
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But understandable? Is that what you meant?  Because the deaths of four Americans by Somalians is what this thread is about.


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## High_Gravity (Feb 23, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> High_Gravity said:
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> > That is sad to hear, many African nations have similar problems. I just hope Somaliland and the other part in the South get their independence.
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There are definently forces at work who profit from the lawlessness in Somalia, particularly Islamic Militant groups. Think about it Somalia is basically an open arms market, young Jihadists can go there and train without interruption. As well as the people involved in the pirates business, and I don't think thats run by all Somalis, I have a feeling different mafias have a hand in this.


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## Sunni Man (Feb 23, 2011)

Ropey said:


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I am just providing some background information as to why some of the Somali people have resorted to piracy.

Things just don't happen in a vacuum.

And btw it has zero to do with religion.


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## Ropey (Feb 23, 2011)

Islam is not a religion. It is an political and religious ideological nation state.

Which is why the Western Philosophy is to separate church from state.

Lest they become backwards again. 

As Islam today.


----------



## Kalam (Feb 23, 2011)

westwall said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > westwall said:
> ...



Which has what to do with Somalia...?


----------



## Kalam (Feb 23, 2011)

westwall said:


> Resistance to what preytell?  Sanity?  There is no government to resist.



Did you bother reading up on this conflict before entering the discussion?

: : Welcome to the Official Site of the Somali Government


----------



## Ropey (Feb 23, 2011)

Kalam said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...





> 3 teenage boys among 7 Somalis facing death in Malaysia piracy case





> Seven Somalis, including three boys under 15 years old, could face the death penalty if convicted on charges of firing on Malaysian armed forces while attempting to a hijack a merchant ship.
> 
> The seven appeared before a Malaysia magistrate in Kuala Lumpur on Friday to hear the charges against them. They did not enter a plea and were transferred to a prison to await the next court action, set for March 15, the Malaysian national news agency Bernama reported.
> 
> ...



*BERNAMA - Seven Somalis Face Death Sentence Under Firearms Charge*

*Pirates can be charged under Penal Code, says Bar Council*

There is a clear connection.


----------



## Ropey (Feb 23, 2011)

Kalam said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > Resistance to what preytell?  Sanity?  There is no government to resist.
> ...



Did you sharpen your minimization and obfuscation skills before entering?


----------



## Sunni Man (Feb 23, 2011)

High_Gravity said:


> There are definently forces at work who profit from the lawlessness in Somalia, particularly Islamic Militant groups. Think about it Somalia is basically an open arms market, young Jihadists can go there and train without interruption. As well as the people involved in the pirates business, and I don't think thats run by all Somalis, I have a feeling different mafias have a hand in this.


Like Kalam said, the ICU (Islamic Courts Union) had basically unified all of Somalia.

But outside Western governments like the U.S. didn't want them.

So proxy African military forces and American air power was used to destroy the Islamic Courts Union.

And plunged Somali into chaos once again.


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## Kalam (Feb 23, 2011)

Ropey said:


> This is why discussion with Kalam yields little value.  Obfuscation, minimization and context thread removal is his forte.



Do you consider yourself a 'valuable' discussant?



Ropey said:


> He will run from every act on the earth to push forward his philosophical Islam whilst human beings on the ground suffer the deleterious effects of Islams clerics worldwide.



I explain the tenets and teachings of my religion when appropriate and you object to this because it underscores the silliness of your attempts to ascribe certain things to it.


----------



## Kalam (Feb 23, 2011)

Ropey said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > westwall said:
> ...



Were you planning on adding anything to this discussion, or did you come here simply to try and get a rise out of me with boring troll posts?


----------



## High_Gravity (Feb 23, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> > There are definently forces at work who profit from the lawlessness in Somalia, particularly Islamic Militant groups. Think about it Somalia is basically an open arms market, young Jihadists can go there and train without interruption. As well as the people involved in the pirates business, and I don't think thats run by all Somalis, I have a feeling different mafias have a hand in this.
> ...



Somaliland doesn't want Shabab though, they recently arrested 10 of their members and Shabab threatened them with violence if they held elections.


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## Kalam (Feb 23, 2011)

Ropey said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > westwall said:
> ...



...This occurred in the vicinity of Somalia, not Malaysia.


----------



## Ropey (Feb 23, 2011)

Kalam said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...



Likely nothing you will like if it doesn't soften the effect of Somalian Pirates killing four Americans.


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## Kalam (Feb 23, 2011)

Ropey said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Ropey said:
> ...



Trolling it is.


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## High_Gravity (Feb 23, 2011)

Kalam said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...



The Somalis are imprisoned in Malaysia though, so technically the Malaysians are involved.


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## Ropey (Feb 23, 2011)

Kalam said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...



There is a clear connection, your obfuscation notwithstanding. You know the obfuscation above, that you say I am trolling you for?


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## Kalam (Feb 23, 2011)

High_Gravity said:


> The Somalis are imprisoned in Malaysia though, so technically the Malaysians are involved.



And this is significant because...?


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## Kalam (Feb 23, 2011)

Ropey said:


> There is a clear connection.



Between what and what?


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## Sunni Man (Feb 23, 2011)

Kalam said:


> Were you planning on adding anything to this discussion, or did you come here simply to try and get a rise out of me with boring troll posts?


Ropey is just in his usual troll mode and adds zero to the discussion.


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## Ropey (Feb 23, 2011)

Between Somalian and Malaysian Piracy which has been going on for longer than many generations have been alive 

And

*The Somalian Piracy that just killed four Americans. *


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## Kalam (Feb 23, 2011)

Ropey said:


> *Between Somalian and Malaysian Piracy* which has been going on for longer than many generations have been alive
> 
> And
> 
> *which is part of the Somalian piracy that just killed four Americans. *



Where do the articles you linked to discuss the connection between Somali and 'Malaysian piracy'?


----------



## Ropey (Feb 23, 2011)

Kalam said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> > *Between Somalian and Malaysian Piracy* which has been going on for longer than many generations have been alive
> ...





High_Gravity said:


> *
> The Somalis are imprisoned in Malaysia though, so technically the Malaysians are involved*.



Clear to me. Just not you.


----------



## Ropey (Feb 23, 2011)

Oh, I know, they were just panhandling.


----------



## Kalam (Feb 23, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Were you planning on adding anything to this discussion, or did you come here simply to try and get a rise out of me with boring troll posts?
> ...



I believe that he has the ability to post substantively, but I have no idea why he nearly always chooses not to. 

Oh well.


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## Kalam (Feb 23, 2011)

Ropey said:


> Clear to me. Just not you.



Of course. Perhaps you can dumb it down for me and explain what Somalis being imprisoned in Malaysia for a crime committed near Somalia has to do with 'Malaysian piracy.'


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## Ropey (Feb 23, 2011)

Near Somalia?


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## Kalam (Feb 23, 2011)

Ropey said:


> Near Somalia?



Unless there's a Gulf of Aden in Southeast Asia, yes...


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## Ropey (Feb 23, 2011)

HUGGY said:


> When will we put an end to this bullshit?
> 
> Somali Pirates Murder 4 Americans - HUMAN EVENTS
> *
> Should we destroy all Somali watercraft capable of going out into the ocean*?



Taken off the OP context. 

Back on track.


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## Ropey (Feb 23, 2011)

westwall said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> > I think open war on the pirates would require boots on the ground in Somalia though, and thats what people want to avoid.
> ...



Indeed.






I pray for the souls of these poor people whilst Kalam and Sunni Man play the apologists and blame others for their deaths.


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## Kalam (Feb 23, 2011)

Ropey said:


> I pray for the souls of these poor people whilst Kalam and Sunni Man play the apologists and blame others for their deaths.



I do? 

I blame others for creating the conditions that led to these deaths. That doesn't mean I'd hesitate to punish the people who actually did the trigger pulling.

Pirates fear the lash of sharia law - Telegraph


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## Ropey (Feb 23, 2011)

Kalam said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> > I pray for the souls of these poor people whilst Kalam and Sunni Man play the apologists and blame others for their deaths.
> ...



Yes, all over the world you blame others for creating the conditions that lead to Muslims killing unbelievers.  Including this event.

I know.


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## Kalam (Feb 23, 2011)

Ropey said:


> Yes, all over the world you blame others for creating the conditions that lead to Muslims killing unbelievers.



You rarely respond with anything that directly addresses the claims I make.

You seem to prefer using distractions such as propaganda and images with no context.


----------



## Ropey (Feb 23, 2011)

Kalam said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> > I pray for the souls of these poor people whilst Kalam and Sunni Man play the apologists and blame others for their deaths.
> ...



I said you blame others for their deaths. You do. Now I am what? 

Distracting?

I'll leave that for others to decide, not you.


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## Sunni Man (Feb 23, 2011)

Well it looks like Ropey has successfully derailed another thread.


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## Kalam (Feb 23, 2011)

Ropey said:


> I said you blame others for their deaths. You do.


Link to the post in which I stated or implied that the pirates were guiltless.



Ropey said:


> Now I am what?



Misrepresenting my position. Again.


----------



## westwall (Feb 23, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > Resistance to what preytell?  Sanity?  There is no government to resist.  Instead you are looking at a bunch of individual warlords who are fighting over their particular patch of ground.  Kind of like the warlord period of China.  Only some of the Chinese actually were competent, unlike the morons in Somalia.
> ...






Only because we weren't allowed to kill them.  The UN placed such strenuous restrictions on the use of force that the western countries left for the most part.  They tried to pull the same BS on the Turks but they just killed everyone in front of them, men, women, children, it didn't matter.  We are not allowed to fight that way but it worked then and it would work now.   But believe any ridiculous thing you wish.  They are demonstrably untrue and only make you look like a fool.


----------



## Ropey (Feb 23, 2011)

Kalam said:


> You rarely respond with anything that directly addresses the claims I make.



A claim is a proposition that is either true or false Kalam. Your premise is clear. I disagree and think it is false.

You say that the causes and conditions lead to the worldwide events of Muslims killing non believers. 21 border wars by Muslims all over the world and which you blame others for creating the conditions that led to them.

What's there to respond to Kalam. I call your position false. There is just too many different variables for it to be simply poor misunderstood Muslims being taken advantage of whilst they go about their merry way killing non muslims, robbing non muslims, etc. etc. etc.

Your claims are simply that. Claims. I claimed that you blamed others for all these events. You said. I do? And then you moved to showing that you do in exact words.





> I blame others for creating the conditions that led to these deaths. That doesn't mean I'd hesitate to punish the people who actually did the trigger pulling.



It's imple apologist claptrap Kalam so I do not legitimze such inanity whether you agree with it or your apologist supporters agree with you. 

I don't. 

Four Dead Americans at the hands of Muslims. Outside of the territorial waters? And all you do here is desecrate their deaths blaming the killers responsibility on the backs of others, even if you are willing to punish the killers. 

Aren't you ever a considerate American Kalam.


----------



## westwall (Feb 23, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> HG the mosque that I attend is about 60% Somali
> 
> So I hear the problems first hand.
> 
> ...






That ended 60 years ago.  Seems to me they should have gotten their act together in 60 years.  Don't you?  Or is that the fault of America as well.


----------



## Ropey (Feb 23, 2011)

Kalam said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> > I said you blame others for their deaths. You do.
> ...



Link to where I said you said they were guiltless. Blame does not have to mean total guilt. Don't black and white me Kalam. That does not work.

You seek to soften the guilt with external blame.


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## westwall (Feb 23, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> > That is sad to hear, many African nations have similar problems. I just hope Somaliland and the other part in the South get their independence.
> ...






There is nothing in Somalia that is not easier and cheaper to get elsewhere, they have a little bit of uranium, iron, tin, salt (surprise), gypsum, bauxite (aluminum), copper, natural gas, and possibly oil.  In other words nothing special.


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## Sunni Man (Feb 23, 2011)

westwall said:


> Only because we weren't allowed to kill them.  The UN placed such strenuous restrictions on the use of force that the western countries left for the most part.  They tried to pull the same BS on the Turks but they just killed everyone in front of them, men, women, children, it didn't matter.  We are not allowed to fight that way but it worked then and it would work now.   But believe any ridiculous thing you wish.  They are demonstrably untrue and only make you look like a fool.


Play any tune that you want.

But America lost in Somalia.


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## westwall (Feb 23, 2011)

Kalam said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...






They're Islamic pirates as well.  And they no doubt communicate seeing as how the Somali pirates are operating almost that far afield.


----------



## westwall (Feb 23, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > Only because we weren't allowed to kill them.  The UN placed such strenuous restrictions on the use of force that the western countries left for the most part.  They tried to pull the same BS on the Turks but they just killed everyone in front of them, men, women, children, it didn't matter.  We are not allowed to fight that way but it worked then and it would work now.   But believe any ridiculous thing you wish.  They are demonstrably untrue and only make you look like a fool.
> ...






It's not a tune pal.  We left because we weren't allowed to fight.  It's pretty simple the UN said you may not fire on anyone unless you are 100% positive you will hit them and only them.  So we sent in a Marine FAST unit and they hit 100% of the time so the UN made us take them out, so we said OK and left.  It was that simple, the UN didn't want us killing their "technicals" so we left.


----------



## Kalam (Feb 23, 2011)

Ropey said:


> A claim is a proposition that is either true or false Kalam. Your premise is clear. I disagree and think it is false.
> 
> You say that the causes and conditions lead to the worldwide events of Muslims killing non believers. 21 border wars by Muslims all over the world and which you blame others for creating the conditions that led to them.


Actually, I reject your implication that most of these wars have (or had) anything to do with the religion itself. That isn't the same as claiming that 'Muslims' never instigate conflict. 



Ropey said:


> What's there to respond to Kalam. I call your position false. There is just too many different variables for it to be simply poor misunderstood Muslims being taken advantage of whilst they go about their merry way killing non muslims, robbing non muslims, etc. etc. etc.



See above. The issue is that you choose to view all of these people as 'Muslims' first and foremost when in many cases that aspect of their identity has little or nothing to do with their involvement in a conflict. I don't live in this fantasy world where every Muslim who takes up arms does so because of his or her religious convictions. 



Ropey said:


> Your claims are simply that. Claims. I claimed that you blamed others for all these events. You said. I do? And then you moved to showing that you do in exact words.



You may want to read what I posted again. I pointed out that piracy is rampant because of the anarchic conditions created by foreign interventionism. Claiming that this is the same as blaming foreign interventionism for this specific crime is simply dishonest.



Ropey said:


> It's imple apologist claptrap Kalam so I do not legitimze such inanity whether you agree with it or your apologist supporters agree with you.
> 
> I don't.
> 
> Four Dead Americans at the hands of Muslims. Outside of the territorial waters? And all you do here is desecrate their deaths blaming the killers responsibility on the backs of others, even if you are willing to punish the killers.


Spare me the melodrama. History is not a series of isolated occurrences. Every event is the result of one or multiple causes and anyone who doesn't acknowledge this shouldn't be participating in political discussions.



Ropey said:


> Aren't you ever a considerate American Kalam.


I don't believe in nationalism.


----------



## Sunni Man (Feb 23, 2011)

westwall said:


> It's not a tune pal.  We left because we weren't allowed to fight.  It's pretty simple the UN said you may not fire on anyone unless you are 100% positive you will hit them and only them.  So we sent in a Marine FAST unit and they hit 100% of the time so the UN made us take them out, so we said OK and left.  It was that simple, the UN didn't want us killing their "technicals" so we left.


It's people like you who claim that we didn't really lose in Vietnam.

But war has both a political and military component.

American is dominate in one area; but sadly lacking in the other.

Sun Tzu wrote about it back in the 6th century BC

Maybe it should be mandatory reading for our politicians and generals.  

So they will be on the same page for the next war.


----------



## Kalam (Feb 23, 2011)

westwall said:


> They're *Islamic pirates* as well.


See my post to Ropey.



westwall said:


> And they no doubt communicate


So produce evidence of their communication.


----------



## Ropey (Feb 23, 2011)

Ropey said:


> Four Dead Americans at the hands of Muslims. Outside of the territorial waters? And all you do here is desecrate their deaths blaming the killers responsibility on the backs of others, even if you are willing to punish the killers.





Kalam said:


> Spare me the melodrama. History is not a series of isolated occurrences. Every event is the result of one or multiple causes and anyone who doesn't acknowledge this shouldn't be participating in political discussions.



Melodrama? In your mind maybe. I put forward that in the minds of most Americans this is not the case.



Ropey said:


> Aren't you ever a considerate American Kalam.





Kalam said:


> I don't believe in nationalism.



Clearly not in being an American either, since their deaths and the method of their deaths by their murderers are simply melodrama to you.

Thank you for clarifying your position.


----------



## Kalam (Feb 23, 2011)

Ropey said:


> Melodrama? In your mind maybe. I put forward that in the minds of most Americans this is not the case.


And?



Ropey said:


> Clearly.



The belief that the value of a person's life depends on where they were born is stupid and evil.


----------



## Ropey (Feb 23, 2011)

westwall said:


> They're *Islamic pirates* as well.





Kalam said:


> See my post to Ropey.





Kalam said:


> I believe that he has the ability to post substantively, but I have no idea why he nearly always chooses not to.



Quid pro quo. 

You may think that all the Muslim acts worldwide are just isolated events having nothing to do with the Islamic ideology. I however, disagree with you, and most strongly for on the ground we see the acts all over the world. Is some power trolling Muslims worldwide Kalam? They are simply victims of events? They are candles in the wind? Just as there is no controlling entity for Islam, there is no controlling entity for those against Islam.  Islam seems not to fit in. I see proof of this everywhere. You see to extend blame on others for this proof everywhere. That's simply claptrap to me Kalam.

Something in return. An eye for an eye Kalam. That's what this is for me. Now do you understand. Two way discussion is give and take. Islam, you and Sunni Man seem to have little understanding of this concept. So, when you minimize, I point it out. When you obfuscate, I clarify. When you belittle, I jeer. When you take out of context I insert more context, even if you don't like it or agree with it since I post for the forum to read, not simply you and that's not trolling. That's quid pro quo.

As you do, so shall be done to you Kalam. That's why it seems I can produce decent discussion with some others, but not much with you. Even less with Sunni Man. And even less with georgie boy. I'm a Tanakh kind of guy. 

Now do you get it?


----------



## Kalam (Feb 23, 2011)

Ropey said:


> their deaths and the method of their deaths by their murderers are simply melodrama to you.



Your manner of presenting this information was melodramatic. Please stop twisting my words and being dishonest about what I believe; correcting you every time you do this is tedious.


----------



## westwall (Feb 23, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > It's not a tune pal.  We left because we weren't allowed to fight.  It's pretty simple the UN said you may not fire on anyone unless you are 100% positive you will hit them and only them.  So we sent in a Marine FAST unit and they hit 100% of the time so the UN made us take them out, so we said OK and left.  It was that simple, the UN didn't want us killing their "technicals" so we left.
> ...





I've read Sun Tzu and A Book of Five Rings as well as Clauswitz et all.  The US most certainly did lose in Vietnam and we should have never been there.  The politicians sent us there and then refused to let us fight the war properly.  That is the fault of the politicians, not the military or the US. 

 When we were allowed to fight it properly the fighting was finished in 11 days, it's called Operation Linebacker II and we destroyed the North Vietnamese ability to defend itself.  It was launched because Nixon wanted us out and the Vietnamese wouldn't release the POWs.  So we said Ok this is what happens when we don't have to fight with a blindfold on and one hand tied behind our backs.

I am quite happy to discuss military history for any time from the present day all the way back to Harun al-Rashid or back to Marius if you prefer.  I know it quite well.


----------



## Ropey (Feb 23, 2011)

Ropey said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Ropey said:
> ...



Well?


----------



## Sunni Man (Feb 23, 2011)

Ropey said:


> Something in return. An eye for an eye Kalam. That's what this is for me. Now do you understand. Two way discussion is give and take. Islam, you and Sunni Man seem to have little understanding of this concept. So, when you minimize, I point it out. When you obfuscate, I clarify. When you belittle, I jeer. When you take out of context I insert more context, even if you don't like it or agree with it since I post for the forum to read, not simply you and that's not trolling. That's quid pro quo.
> 
> As you do, so shall be done to you Kalam. That's why it seems I can produce decent discussion with some others, but not much with you. Even less with Sunni Man. And even less with georgie boy. I'm a Tanakh kind of guy.
> 
> Now do you get it?


Yea, Ropey, what we all get is that you are so full of B.S. that it is running out of your ears.


----------



## Kalam (Feb 23, 2011)

Ropey said:


> Quid pro quo.
> 
> You may think that all the Muslim acts worldwide are just isolated events having nothing to do with the Islamic ideology. I however, disagree with you, and most strongly for on the ground we see the acts all over the world. Is some power trolling Muslims worldwide Kalam? They are simply victims of events? They are candles in the wind? Just as there is no controlling entity for Islam, there is no controlling entity for those against Islam.  Islam seems not to fit in. I see proof of this everywhere. You see to extend blame on others for this proof everywhere. That's simply claptrap to me Kalam.



I attempted to address these perception of yours by introducing the topic of the first Chechen War in another thread, but you dropped off a load of propagandistic nonsense instead of actually responding to the simple, uncontroversial question I posed. This is the sort of behavior that makes me doubt that you have any interest in actual discussion. 



Ropey said:


> Something in return. An eye for an eye Kalam. That's what this is for me. Now do you understand. Two way discussion is give and take. Islam, you and Sunni Man seem to have little understanding of this concept. So, when you minimize, I point it out. When you obfuscate, I clarify. When you belittle, I jeer. When you take out of context I insert more context, even if you don't like it or agree with it since I post for the forum to read, not simply you and that's not trolling. That's quid pro quo.
> 
> As you do, so shall be done to you Kalam. That's why it seems I can produce decent discussion with some others, but not much with you. Even less with Sunni Man. And even less with georgie boy. I'm a Tanakh kind of guy.
> 
> Now do you get it?



No, and your portrayal of yourself as some sort of paragon of honesty who valiantly exposes my diabolical machinations has me wondering whether or not you're actually being serious. If I felt the need to obfuscate to defend my position then I wouldn't have taken it in the first place. "Minimizing" is a matter of perception so I don't really care about that. Of course I think that some things and events are less important than you do and vice-versa.

My view of your ability to engage in meaningful discussion isn't based on your exchanges with others; I don't really read those.


----------



## Kalam (Feb 23, 2011)

Ropey said:


> Link to where I said you said they were guiltless. Blame does not have to mean total guilt. Don't black and white me Kalam. That does not work.
> 
> You seek to soften the guilt with external blame.



I hold these individuals responsible for committing a crime and support punishing them. At the same time, I acknowledge that they were able to commit this crime in the first place because of conditions brought about by other actors. You apparently do not.


----------



## HUGGY (Feb 23, 2011)

Kalam said:


> Ropey said:
> 
> 
> > Link to where I said you said they were guiltless. Blame does not have to mean total guilt. Don't black and white me Kalam. That does not work.
> ...



If you REALLY want to go off topic you can blame water rights wars the Ethiopians suffer under as the real pressure that is causing them to migrate to Samolia. But that isn't what this thread is about now is it?  

An update!  US sources are saying that the Somalis taken prisoner on the hijacked yacht might be brought here for a trial.


----------



## Ropey (Feb 23, 2011)

HUGGY said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Ropey said:
> ...





Kalam said:


> At the same time, I acknowledge that they were able to commit this crime in the first place because of conditions brought about by other actors. You apparently do not.


Bring them in and try them, Kalam's acknowledgment of extenuating circumstances and events notwithstanding.  And that will be left up to the judges to assign degrees of guilt.


----------

