# Just Got My New Rates for 2017...350% Increase!  Are You Kidding?



## Oldstyle (Oct 29, 2016)

The letter from Florida Blue arrived yesterday and my insurance premiums will have a 350% increase starting this January.  Affordable Care Act?  Thanks Barry!  Thanks Harry!  Thanks Nancy!  Thanks Democrats!

What the hell happened to my savings of $2,500 a year?


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## Oldstyle (Oct 29, 2016)

How the hell do they expect us to pay for this?  I'm in shock.  I'm seriously in shock.


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## Andylusion (Oct 29, 2016)

I've said it again, and I guess I'll just keep repeating myself.

In 2006, I got an insurance policy for just $67 a month.

Today, the cheapest insurance is $250.

ObamaCare did this.   If you voted for Obama, then you got what you asked for.


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## Fenton Lum (Oct 29, 2016)

Yeah, my corporate insurance never goes up.


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## Iceweasel (Oct 29, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> How the hell do they expect us to pay for this?  I'm in shock.  I'm seriously in shock.


Work two jobs. Sell body parts. Downsize to a tent. Cut back on unnecessary spending like beer, chips, TV, internet .....
It's for the greater good.


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## Fenton Lum (Oct 29, 2016)

Other societies have figure this out, we don't want it figured out here.


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## Oldstyle (Oct 29, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> I've said it again, and I guess I'll just keep repeating myself.
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> In 2006, I got an insurance policy for just $67 a month.
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> ...



Everyone who voted for the Affordable Care Act should be tarred and feathered and run out of Washington DC on a rail.  They have screwed us so badly with this legislation!


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## S.J. (Oct 29, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> I've said it again, and I guess I'll just keep repeating myself.
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> In 2006, I got an insurance policy for just $67 a month.
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Unfortunately the rest of us have to pay for their stupidity.


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## Fenton Lum (Oct 29, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


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And those who hatched the plan at the Heritage Foundation?


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## Fenton Lum (Oct 29, 2016)

S.J. said:


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We've all been paying for american supidity all our loves.


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## Oldstyle (Oct 29, 2016)

Fenton Lum said:


> Other societies have figure this out, we don't want it figured out here.



Are you kidding me, Fenton?  That's your response?  You progressives shoved this bill down the throats of everyone in this country and now healthcare costs are exploding and your only response is that we need to figure it out?  HOW ABOUT FIGURING IT OUT BEFORE YOU PASSED LEGISLATION THAT AFFECTED 1/6 OF OUR ECONOMY AND MILLIONS OF PEOPLE!!!  YOU ASSHAT!!!


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## Fenton Lum (Oct 29, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


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First off, don't label me, don't tell me what I've supported, or any of your other partisanshithead assumptions, not everyone fits into your two boxes.

We as a society do not want to look at what works elsewhere, we want different outcomes by doubling down on what does not work.  I agree, the AHA did not solve the issue.


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## Andylusion (Oct 29, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


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Ironically, I just put Fenton on ignore.  You should do the same.  He'll never debate anything you say, other than to deflect and evade any points you make.   Just letting you know.

If you need to know how to ignore someone, just click on their name.  




 
That box will come up, and you just click on ignore.   Works on anyone that is beyond any value of talking to.  Makes the forums so much more interesting when you ignore the stupid people.


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## Fenton Lum (Oct 29, 2016)

Andylusion said:


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Be sure to sing backup for andy, he can't handle anything else.


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## Oldstyle (Oct 29, 2016)

Oh, so now you're not a liberal?  You spineless scum are running for the hills on this already!  Blame it on the Heritage Foundation and American society?  This was Democratic legislation pushed by the far left progressive wing against the wishes of the American people and passed before the members of Congress that were elected to stop it could take office.  You OWN this, Fenton you and every other liberal shill who drank the Kool Aid and told us all how wonderful this was all going to be!


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## Oldstyle (Oct 29, 2016)

There are rate increase letters going out to people across this country right now and when the people SEE what it is that you've saddled them with...they are going to go BALLISTIC!!!


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## WillowTree (Oct 29, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> The letter from Florida Blue arrived yesterday and my insurance premiums will have a 350% increase starting this January.  Affordable Care Act?  Thanks Barry!  Thanks Harry!  Thanks Nancy!  Thanks Democrats!
> 
> What the hell happened to my savings of $2,500 a year?


Well just think, your 350% increase will cover a welfare queen on the left. It is called wealth redistribution for a reason.


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## Iceweasel (Oct 29, 2016)

America voted stupidly.


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## WillowTree (Oct 29, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> There are rate increase letters going out to people across this country right now and when the people SEE what it is that you've saddled them with...they are going to go BALLISTIC!!!


Aren't you glad they sent out the letters before the election?


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## Billy_Kinetta (Oct 29, 2016)

Fenton Lum said:


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It was promptly dropped.  20 years ago.

It was never acted upon.


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## Fenton Lum (Oct 29, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> Oh, so now you're not a liberal?  You spineless scum are running for the hills on this already!  Blame it on the Heritage Foundation and American society?  This was Democratic legislation pushed by the far left progressive wing against the wishes of the American people and passed before the members of Congress that were elected to stop it could take office.  You OWN this, Fenton you and every other liberal shill who drank the Kool Aid and told us all how wonderful this was all going to be!



You really should look into that, Heritage Foundation, as a response to HilaryCare when she was attempting to meddle in healthcare as first lady.

I just told you it didn't address the issue, if you need someone to hiss at, go ahead, but nothing will ever get resolved as long as all you're focused on is revenge against roughly half of your fellow citizens.  That's exactly how the power structure wants the masses; incoherent and feuding amongst themselves.


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## Fenton Lum (Oct 29, 2016)

Billy_Kinetta said:


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Ahem, Romney in MA.


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## Oldstyle (Oct 29, 2016)

WillowTree said:


> Oldstyle said:
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> > There are rate increase letters going out to people across this country right now and when the people SEE what it is that you've saddled them with...they are going to go BALLISTIC!!!
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You know what, Willow?  Anyone with a dollop of common sense and an 8th grade education could do the math and see that none of the numbers added up for what Barry, Harry and Nancy were promising us...so I knew I was going to see huge rate increases at some point.  I'm shocked by how much it's increasing though.  How do they expect people to pay for this?


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## S.J. (Oct 29, 2016)

"If you think healthcare is expensive now, wait until it's free". - P.J. O'Rourke 1993


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## jon_berzerk (Oct 29, 2016)

S.J. said:


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exactly


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## Andylusion (Oct 29, 2016)

It looks like I'll have to go without insurance.  Unfortunately, I see no other option at this point.


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## Billy_Kinetta (Oct 29, 2016)

Fenton Lum said:


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We're all well aware of the longstanding Democrat infection within the Republican Party.  I predict they will begin to take serious action on it following the election, since the bacteria have rather revealed themselves.


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## Fenton Lum (Oct 29, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


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Well when you let corporate lobbyists in the room everyting always goes worse for "the people".


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## jon_berzerk (Oct 29, 2016)

well this is the reason the corruptocrats tried to sue 

to keep the 2017 insurance rate increases 

secret until after the election 

--LOL

some time back they realized 

*"oh crap this information on crazy rate increases will hit a week or so before the election" *

--LOL


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## Fenton Lum (Oct 29, 2016)

Billy_Kinetta said:


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Perhaps someday you'll awaken to the entire ruse as opposed to half of it.


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## Oldstyle (Oct 29, 2016)

Fenton Lum said:


> Oldstyle said:
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> > Oh, so now you're not a liberal?  You spineless scum are running for the hills on this already!  Blame it on the Heritage Foundation and American society?  This was Democratic legislation pushed by the far left progressive wing against the wishes of the American people and passed before the members of Congress that were elected to stop it could take office.  You OWN this, Fenton you and every other liberal shill who drank the Kool Aid and told us all how wonderful this was all going to be!
> ...



Being livid about a 350% increase in my premiums when Barack Obama promised a reduction is me being "focused on...revenge"?   I don't want revenge!  I want the rate reduction that your scumbag leaders promised.


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## WillowTree (Oct 29, 2016)

Fenton Lum said:


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Did Romney pass Obamacare or was it you fucking democrat morons?


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## Fenton Lum (Oct 29, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


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They were your words pard:

_Oh, so now you're not a liberal?  You spineless scum are running for the hills on this already!  Blame it on the Heritage Foundation and American society?  This was Democratic legislation pushed by the far left progressive wing against the wishes of the American people and passed before the members of Congress that were elected to stop it could take office.  You OWN this .... blahbitty blah blah._

Yeah, sounds like you blame "the left", whoever you think that is.


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## WillowTree (Oct 29, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


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What they want is universal health care and they expect your taxes to cover that while 47% of them get a free ride! They ain't done with you yet.


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## Fenton Lum (Oct 29, 2016)

WillowTree said:


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Kinda sounds like it was your country don't it.


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## Fenton Lum (Oct 29, 2016)

WillowTree said:


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Like those european systems that work better for less?


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## BuckToothMoron (Oct 29, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> The letter from Florida Blue arrived yesterday and my insurance premiums will have a 350% increase starting this January.  Affordable Care Act?  Thanks Barry!  Thanks Harry!  Thanks Nancy!  Thanks Democrats!
> 
> What the hell happened to my savings of $2,500 a year?



Hey, shut up you greedy bastard. I'm sure premiums went down for somebody. BO wouldn't just make that up to get the bill passed, that would be down right unethical.


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## Billy_Kinetta (Oct 29, 2016)

Fenton Lum said:


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Recall that I am a member of no political party.  Merely listing their state of being.


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## Fenton Lum (Oct 29, 2016)

Billy_Kinetta said:


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Uh huh.


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## BuckToothMoron (Oct 29, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


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I agree, I'll get the tar, you get the feathers.


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## WillowTree (Oct 29, 2016)

Fenton Lum said:


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Hey! Dipshit. We don't live in Europe, you can get there though and live on their system. The reality is this country is 20 trillion in debt, 47% contribute no taxes to the federal system, they take and take and take and take and howl for more. Democrats own this clusterfuck lock stock and barrel. And do not tell us this will work better for less, did you not just hear the man tell you his premiumns are up 350%?


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## Andylusion (Oct 29, 2016)

WillowTree said:


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That is exactly what they want, and they will screw over the entire country, and ruin people's lives to get it.   Read Atlas Shrugged.  It's practically a documentary of what is going on right now.


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## BuckToothMoron (Oct 29, 2016)

Iceweasel said:


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That's right, we all have to make small sacrifices to make it work for everyone. How many of us really need two lungs, or 2 kidneys? Small sacrifices.


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## Fenton Lum (Oct 29, 2016)

WillowTree said:


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Ever wonder why that is?  Others can do this with much less wealth than we can with all we have?  WHO and others consistently rate US healthcare outcomes far behind other nations, for the planet's most expensive healthcare system.  Fine with me, blame whoever you want, but that will never resolve anything, it in fact feeds the system who is quite comfortable with the way things are.


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## Fenton Lum (Oct 29, 2016)

Andylusion said:


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Ah, a Randian, that explains it all now.


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## Andylusion (Oct 29, 2016)

Here we go....




 
Ah yes, I remember the old days where I used to just buy insurance and pay for it.

Now I have to bow before government and pray for insurance.  Oh, the gov-gods said I can't have any.    I guess I just go without.  Thanks Obama.   Thanks a ton Dumbocrats.   Thanks so much Socialist looking out for my welfare.  I'm so much better off now.


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## Fenton Lum (Oct 29, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> Here we go....
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> View attachment 95761
> Ah yes, I remember the old days where I used to just buy insurance and pay for it.
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My guess is you got it through an employer like most of us, but ok.


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## WillowTree (Oct 29, 2016)

Fenton Lum said:


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When you get ready to agree that we need a flat tax on absolutely everyone to fund your wildest desires for a European lifestyle get back to me.


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## WillowTree (Oct 29, 2016)

The bottom line is Obammie is mandating that you buy a product you cannot afford and if you do not buy it they will tax your ass off! Yay democrats. Yay!


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## Fenton Lum (Oct 29, 2016)

WillowTree said:


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Typical.  There's no reason we should not look at what works elsewhere and see if any variations on those themes might help us here, learning from the misstepes of others.  If that frightens you, so be it, it will come, that investigation.  The only question is, how high will the pile of bodies have to get.  This is america after all, and people will always come behind profit.


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## Vigilante (Oct 29, 2016)

OP is a selfish bastard. look at all the indigent and illegals that can now have Healthcare on YOUR money!!!!!


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## WillowTree (Oct 29, 2016)

Fenton Lum said:


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From all your efforts to attain the moral high ground you have yet to tell us how we will pay for it.


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## Manonthestreet (Oct 29, 2016)

How much per month are we talking...what will your rate be


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## WillowTree (Oct 29, 2016)

Guess Fenton has no clue as to how to pay for it. I guess he still believes in the fairy godmother.


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## S.J. (Oct 29, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> It looks like I'll have to go without insurance.  Unfortunately, I see no other option at this point.


Now you're catching on.  They want you to die off.


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## Andylusion (Oct 29, 2016)

WillowTree said:


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Leftists are not into logic and math.  Only moral platitudes and utopian dreams.


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## Andylusion (Oct 29, 2016)

S.J. said:


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Well of course.   Under a socialist system, where the public pays for your needs, you are by definition a burden on the system.  If you didn't exist, everyone else would be better off.

Under a capitalist system, by definition you get what you pay for, and thus you are a benefit to society.


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## Andylusion (Oct 29, 2016)

WillowTree said:


> Guess Fenton has no clue as to how to pay for it. I guess he still believes in the fairy godmother.



Well, last time I bothered reading any of his crap, his only response was that "other countries do it", which if you look at the UK doctor strikes over pay, the French funding crash, the Greek mass hospital closures, the 3 year long wait times in Canada, and of course the massive difference in 5-Year-Survival times between the US and the rest of the world...  the argument "yeah other people do it" doesn't seem to be convincing.

It's like "other people do drugs and it works for them", then pretending all the rehab centers don't exist.

I still have yet to hear him even address the fact that all those systems have almost double the taxation.  If you increase your taxes by 20%, is that really a better deal than insurance premiums.


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## Care4all (Oct 29, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> The letter from Florida Blue arrived yesterday and my insurance premiums will have a 350% increase starting this January.  Affordable Care Act?  Thanks Barry!  Thanks Harry!  Thanks Nancy!  Thanks Democrats!
> 
> What the hell happened to my savings of $2,500 a year?



Hmmmm, your State has to approve any increase in rates from Florida Blue and they MUST be kept reasonable....  me thinks you need to question that 350% increase...

_Whoops, see the Fla. Blue 2017 rate increases ordered taken down | Protecting Your Pocket

One of Florida’s largest health insurers says requested 2017 rate increases for four of its plans should not have been posted on healthcare.gov, but a reporter for The Palm Beach Post on Tuesday saw increases ranging from 5.22 percent to 11.61 percent. 

“According to our Actuary team, what was posted were not the correct, final rates for Florida Blue – there are some adjustments that are not reflected in those numbers that were posted online,” said company spokesman Paul Kluding. 

The company also known as Blue Cross and Blue Shield of Florida says Wednesday is the deadline for plans to submit and rates should not be made public until 10 days after that. A federal spokesman had no immediate comment. 

Here is what the Post saw: 


BlueSelect Small Group 5.22 percent
BlueOptions Small Group 8.72 percent
BlueOptions Individual 9.83 percent
BlueSelection Individual 11.61 percent


The incident comes amid a broader discussion of what is happening to health costs. As The Post reported, U.S. officials said last week  that Floridians really pay an average of $84 a month after tax credits for Affordable Care Act marketplace plans — and that’s only up from $82 last year. It’s a 2 percent rise._

more info at this link too!

Why Florida OKed higher 2017 premiums than health insurers sought


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## S.J. (Oct 29, 2016)

Fenton Lum said:


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Not American stupidity, LIBERAL stupidity.


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## Oldstyle (Oct 29, 2016)

Care4all said:


> Oldstyle said:
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> > The letter from Florida Blue arrived yesterday and my insurance premiums will have a 350% increase starting this January.  Affordable Care Act?  Thanks Barry!  Thanks Harry!  Thanks Nancy!  Thanks Democrats!
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That was from May of 2016, Care!  I just received my new premium rates in the mail yesterday from Florida Blue and it wasn't 5% or 8% or even 11%...it was an increase of 350% starting in 2017!  Do you understand what's happening to the ACA?  The REAL costs are now being revealed and they are ASTRONOMICAL!  Gee, what affect do you think Middle Class people having to shell out 350% more for their healthcare coverage is going to do to the economy!  Let me guess...you don't think increases like that are going to affect the family budget for things like a new car...a vacation trip next summer...a nice dinner out for mom and dad?  The ripple this is going to cause to our economy is going be felt and felt hard!


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## Oldstyle (Oct 29, 2016)

As for your unnamed "Federal officials" in that Palm Beach Post article?  They were obviously as full of shit as Obama, Reid and Pelosi when they promised me a reduction in my healthcare costs if the ACA was passed!  Those estimates they put out?  Complete and utter BULLSHIT designed to hide from the American people how badly they've been screwed by you liberals until after the election!


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## Andylusion (Oct 29, 2016)

WillowTree said:


> Guess Fenton has no clue as to how to pay for it. I guess he still believes in the fairy godmother.



Well, last time I bothered reading any of his crap, his only response was that "other countries do it", which if you look at the UK doctor strikes over pay, the French funding crash, the Greek mass hospital closures, the 3 year long wait times in Canada, and of course the massive difference in 5-Year-Survival times between the US and the rest of the world...  the argument "yeah other people do it" doesn't seem to be convincing.

It's like "other people do drugs and it works for them", then pretending all the rehab centers don't exist.

I still have yet to hear him even address the fact that all those systems have almost double the taxation.  If you increase your taxes by 20%, is that really a better deal than insurance premiums.


Care4all said:


> Oldstyle said:
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> > The letter from Florida Blue arrived yesterday and my insurance premiums will have a 350% increase starting this January.  Affordable Care Act?  Thanks Barry!  Thanks Harry!  Thanks Nancy!  Thanks Democrats!
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Couple of things....

*First off, the whole "the state must approve rate increases" thing.*

I want you to imagine a completely fictional situation.   Imagine if you are governor.   Imagine that your government agency rejected rate increases to the largest insurance company in the state, and that insurance company faced with having policies that did not turn a profit, but instead lost the company money, decided to instead cut the insurance plans that were not profitable.

As a result, half a million people in your state, suddenly had no insurance.

You know what that spells for you?  A political blood bath, that would most certainly wipe you out, and likely take down most of the politicians from your party.  I could even effect Federal Senators and Representatives.

So what are the incentives of the people in government?  To basically give every cost increase to the companies they want.  This is yet another reason why regulations by their vary nature don't work.

The capitalist system is far more effective at weeding out over charging companies, because competition by other companies keeps the market prices as low as possible.

If you have government in charge of pricing, well then you better give me my rate increase, or you'll have several hundred thousand pissed off natives with pitch forks and torches burning down the capital building.

In MassHealth, they actually tried at one point to refuse rate hikes on medications.   The result?   All the pharmaceutical companies announced plans to leave the state.   They quickly reversed, and accepted the rate hikes.

Regulating pricing never works.  Never.  France often doesn't have the new medications that America has.  People in France commonly buy medications over the internet, because they can't get them under their price controlled system.   Doctors routinely do not even tell patients about medications, they knew they can't get.

Not a good plan.  But socialism at it's best.

*Secondly, looking at the end user costs alone, is a brutal deception.*

The Obamacare act has tons of hidden costs, that while keeping the cost low on your front pocket, are driving up costs on your back pocket.

Over 1/3rd of the states are considering raising taxes to cover short fall in the budgets.   Many others have already raised taxes, and many more have cut medicare and medicaid.

Lastly, many states are trying to get out of the health care exchanges.

The problem is, the Obamacare system has tons of costs to the states, that show up in different areas.  The most obvious example, is the exchanges themselves are staffed by the state, and paid by the state.   Well, that means you.    When you hear a state is raising taxes on gasoline to pay for road repair....  well how about that $100 Million spent on the health exchange?   Can't use that money for road repair now, so you have to pay more for gas.

While you sit there and say "my insurance premiums only went up by 5% after the tax credit", yeah that ignores that $100 you lost from your back pocket in other tax increases.

*Finally, this also ignores higher premiums others are paying.*

This is an indirect subsidy that many people don't see.  

His higher costs aren't subsidizing lower-income policyholders, whose subsidy has already been paid by the government. But he is providing a subsidy in another way: The Affordable Care Act requires him to buy a policy with features he doesn't need.

"Seeing as I'm a single male with no kids or dependents, and I'm paying for pediatric dental care and maternity care, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me," McLemore says.​
How The Affordable Care Act Pays For Insurance Subsidies

No sir, it does not make sense.  My policy covers alcoholism rehab.  I don't drink.  Haven't had an alcoholic drink but possibly one time in my whole life.

Make no sense at all, unless of course you want to find a way to force people to pay higher prices to insurance companies, to offset other people.

This is one of the reasons all of the insurance companies are increasing premiums faster than they had before Obamacare.

If you doubt that, just ask the insurance companies.

Final Rate Determinations | Florida Blue


Utilization Adjustment
 Adjustment to projected claims at the metal level to account for differing utilization between benefit richness level
Addition of coverage for Essential Health Benefits (EHBs)
 New benefit mandates under the United States Preventive Services Task Force (USPSTF) and other EHB expansions mandated by PPACA
Boom there it is.   New benefits mandates.  Doesn't matter if I'm single, I still have a "benefit mandate" that requires I have maternity coverage, even though it is impossible (baring some miracle of G-d) that I would ever use it.


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## EvilCat Breath (Oct 30, 2016)

Andylusion said:


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Thanks.  I just did it.


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## EvilCat Breath (Oct 30, 2016)

If you think the premiums are bad, wait until you have to get a prescription filled.  You will drop right there.


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## Andylusion (Oct 30, 2016)

Tipsycatlover said:


> If you think the premiums are bad, wait until you have to get a prescription filled.  You will drop right there.



Well first off, if it comes to that, I'll hop on the internet, and search for the cheapest alternative.   In today's world, you can order just about anything, from anywhere.   I'll find a generic.


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## frigidweirdo (Oct 30, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> The letter from Florida Blue arrived yesterday and my insurance premiums will have a 350% increase starting this January.  Affordable Care Act?  Thanks Barry!  Thanks Harry!  Thanks Nancy!  Thanks Democrats!
> 
> What the hell happened to my savings of $2,500 a year?



Yeah, blame Obamacare. Don't blame those who have pushed for all the corruption.

How much do you have to pay just for the insurance company? A completely UNNECESSARY waste of space, and you have to pay loads just for them to do something useless and then make profits on it.

How much do you pay in drugs costing too much? Doctors choosing the most ridiculously expensive drug when a cheap one would do? How much do you have to pay for hospital profits, and for them to charge you for anything and everything. 

The UK spends half what the US pays for healthcare, and people in the UK have complained (mostly the rich) that it costs too much. If you paid more than the UK pays for healthcare you'd have a decent system, AND pay less. 

But no, blame Obama for trying to get poor people having insurance.


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## Andylusion (Oct 30, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> Oldstyle said:
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> > The letter from Florida Blue arrived yesterday and my insurance premiums will have a 350% increase starting this January.  Affordable Care Act?  Thanks Barry!  Thanks Harry!  Thanks Nancy!  Thanks Democrats!
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*First, while there is some amount of corruption, there isn't nearly as much as you think*.   The ObamaCare bill was not pushed by the companies.  It was pushed by Obama.

The costly regulations that have been driving up health care costs for decades were not pushed by the companies, they were pushed by the left.

The health insurance and hospitals didn't call up Obama and say "hey let's screw up the health care industry with costly stupid regulations!"

No, Obama called up the health care industry and said "I'm going to screw up the health industry with regulations. Do you have any suggestions?".

Second, if insurance companies were in fact unnecessary and a waste, then we would never have used them to start with.    Funny how the Canadians actually sued their own government for the right to have private insurance, and France, Germany and numerous other countries, all have private insurance on top of their expensive gov-care system.

So oddly it would seem that most of the people in 1st world countries all believe insurance isn't a waste.

Third, while you claim that the UK spend half as much on health care, that isn't entirely true.

They spend less, because they get less.   It's easy to say then spend half as much, when they don't get nearly as much.

25 cancer drugs to be denied on NHS

But hey... it keeps costs down.

Can I demand a specific treatment? - Health questions - NHS Choices

Straight from the NHS web site:
Remember that:
 some types of treatment aren't available on the NHS

But at least it's cheaper!  In fact not getting treatment is universally cheaper.

'I went abroad for prostate cancer therapy... and I'm sending the NHS

"While the NHS acknowledges the benefits of proton therapy and plans to build its own centres, many patients are given inferior treatments simply because the cost of sending patients to the US for this treatment – well over £100,000 - is too high.”

There you go.   Yeah, we'll get that treatment here.... eventually.... but for now the cost is just too high, so you get this inferior treatment, and hope you live.   Yeah, maybe you'd like a say in that, but since we're footing the bill, we'll make that call for you.

You know.... so we keep cost down.  Wouldn't want to be as expensive as the US.

This is the problem dude.  Comparing US to the UK health care, is not an apples to apples comparison.  Never has been.






Every time they have compared real survival rates on nearly everything, the US does better, and by a wide margin.

Do you really want to cut costs and risk dying more?   You really want to cause literally millions of people to die, to save a few bucks?


----------



## WillowTree (Oct 30, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> > The letter from Florida Blue arrived yesterday and my insurance premiums will have a 350% increase starting this January.  Affordable Care Act?  Thanks Barry!  Thanks Harry!  Thanks Nancy!  Thanks Democrats!
> ...


If all Obama wanted was to get poor people insurance he merely had to write a law subsidizing them right? We did not need to be mandated, we did not need the democrats to tell us exactly what coverage we needed, we Did not need Nancy Pelosi telling us it will be a big surprise we will know what's in it after we pass it.  Well you democrats passed it and the only happy people are the poor people because they get theirs for nothing. The rest of us have to pay out the ass for something we can no longer afford and we will have our asses taxed off for not buying what we cannot afford. Damn right we are blaming Obama.


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## Ravi (Oct 30, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> The letter from Florida Blue arrived yesterday and my insurance premiums will have a 350% increase starting this January.  Affordable Care Act?  Thanks Barry!  Thanks Harry!  Thanks Nancy!  Thanks Democrats!
> 
> What the hell happened to my savings of $2,500 a year?


Let's see the letter.


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## Oldstyle (Oct 30, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> > The letter from Florida Blue arrived yesterday and my insurance premiums will have a 350% increase starting this January.  Affordable Care Act?  Thanks Barry!  Thanks Harry!  Thanks Nancy!  Thanks Democrats!
> ...



So I shouldn't blame Obama for lying to me about what the ACA would cost?  I shouldn't blame Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi for rushing an absolutely horrible piece of legislation through Congress before the representatives that the people elected to stop them could be seated?  The liberal wing of the Democratic Party owns ObamaCare and owns it's failure.  They wrote the law.  They passed the law.


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## Anathema (Oct 30, 2016)

Fenton Lum said:


> Other societies have figure this out, we don't want it figured out here.



We have a different Government - Citizen dynamic than other nations. Here the Government works for the People instead of Dominating them. Our Founding documents LIMIT rather then EMPOWER the Government. It's a totally different sydtem.


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## Iceweasel (Oct 30, 2016)

S.J. said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > It looks like I'll have to go without insurance.  Unfortunately, I see no other option at this point.
> ...


The fewer carbon emitters the better. The plan is coming together.


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## frigidweirdo (Oct 30, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > Oldstyle said:
> ...



I think you are trying to avoid what I said. 

There is lots of corruption. Estimates are 3% of US GDP. These are not my estimates, these are the estimates of those who count such things. Mine are much higher.

Health insurance for profit is a thing of the right. 

Health Insurance Industry | Health Care for America Now

"The $884-billion-a-year private health insurance industry,"

US health care: Spending a lot, getting the least

"The U.S. spent an average of $9,086 per person on health care in 2013, which translated to more than 17 percent of gross domestic product, the fund noted."

US GDP is $18.5 trillion in 2016. That's $18,000,000,000,000, which means 17% of this is $3,060,000,000,000 or $3 trillion a year on healthcare. $884 billion is about 28% of all healthcare costs. It's completely unnecessary. The UK doesn't need health insurance companies, the only health insurance companies that exist (like BUPA) are ones that serve those who choose to have private health insurance. People aren't forced to have insurance in order to get health care. 

So, imagine the UK spends 50 on healthcare. The US spends 100 on healthcare, but 28 of this healthcare isn't healthcare at all, it's insurance companies. That means the US actually spends 72 on healthcare. 

The left would have this gone. They'd save you that much money by getting rid of the unnecessary.

People are talking about premiums going up. But they've been going up for a long time BEFORE Obamacare.

Higher health-insurance premiums don’t mean the Affordable Care Act is a disaster


"But here is the good news. While health-care costs and premiums are rising — the recent announcement notwithstanding — they are rising much more slowly than they did during the George W. Bush administration and, indeed, over the past 50 years."

Simply said, people are saying "Obamacare is here, and premiums are going up, therefore it must be Obamacare that is making premiums go up", is it? Really? What about before Obamacare, why did they go up?

No, the right wants to keep health insurance, they want to keep private hospitals, they want to keep it expensive, and then they complain that it's too expensive and blame the left. A similar thing has happened in the UK. Cameron said the UK's NHS was too expensive (half the cost of the US system, I mean, come on), so increased the amount of privatization (which costs MORE). Go figure. 

You said "if insurance companies were in fact unnecessary and a waste, then we would never have used them to start with." I'm calling Bullshit on this one. The UK doesn't need health insurance companies. It's that simple. 

The UK spends less, possibly gets less, however what you're looking at is what the CONSERVATIVE GOVT is doing. They're stripping the NHS down in order to show people "it doesn't work" so they can impose a more expensive private system over the top. It's ideology, pure and simply. The NHS under Labour was getting better and better, after the Tories (the Conservatives) stripped it bear up to 1997 in the hope of doing exactly the same thing. Look at the NHS up to 2010 and you'll see something quite different.

The problem with the US system is that SOME PEOPLE get great healthcare. I'm not saying they don't. However some people don't get great healthcare and Obama has tried to change that, and it is leading to higher costs. 
However, if the UK increased its 50 on spending up to 100, it'd have a great system. But the Tories say it's too expensive (let's spend more on profits for private companies) and therefore are reducing everything. There's your problem.


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## saveliberty (Oct 30, 2016)

Fenton Lum said:


> Other societies have figure this out, we don't want it figured out here.



Yep, give free or nearly free coverage and crush national economies.


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## Fenton Lum (Oct 30, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...



In our "capitalist" system you are only useful insofar as you still have earning potential to feed into the system.  Once that's past, you're warehoused until death.


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## Fenton Lum (Oct 30, 2016)

S.J. said:


> Fenton Lum said:
> 
> 
> > S.J. said:
> ...



You are obviously why the american stupidity continues.


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## Fenton Lum (Oct 30, 2016)

saveliberty said:


> Fenton Lum said:
> 
> 
> > Other societies have figure this out, we don't want it figured out here.
> ...



Guess you're not up on the better health outcomes others are able to achieve for far less of a financial drain on society.


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## Fenton Lum (Oct 30, 2016)

It really doesn't matter if we figure out healthcare in america anyway, what's important to the american public is that we always have someone else to blame.


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## Fenton Lum (Oct 30, 2016)

Anathema said:


> Fenton Lum said:
> 
> 
> > Other societies have figure this out, we don't want it figured out here.
> ...



Really, your govt works for the people, pffffffffffffffft, hardly.


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## Andylusion (Oct 30, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> > The letter from Florida Blue arrived yesterday and my insurance premiums will have a 350% increase starting this January.  Affordable Care Act?  Thanks Barry!  Thanks Harry!  Thanks Nancy!  Thanks Democrats!
> ...



*First, while there is some amount of corruption, there isn't nearly as much as you think*.   The ObamaCare bill was not pushed by the companies.  It was pushed by Obama.

The costly regulations that have been driving up health care costs for decades were not pushed by the companies, they were pushed by the left.

The health insurance and hospitals didn't call up Obama and say "hey let's screw up the health care industry with costly stupid regulations!"

No, Obama called up the health care industry and said "I'm going to screw up the health industry with regulations. Do you have any suggestions?".

*Second, if insurance companies were in fact unnecessary and a waste, then we would never have used them to start with.*    Funny how the Canadians actually sued their own government for the right to have private insurance, and France, Germany and numerous other countries, all have private insurance on top of their expensive gov-care system.

So oddly it would seem that most of the people in 1st world countries all believe insurance isn't a waste.

*Third, while you claim that the UK spend half as much on health care, that isn't entirely true.*

They spend less, because they get less.   It's easy to say then spend half as much, when they don't get nearly as much.

25 cancer drugs to be denied on NHS

But hey... it keeps costs down.

Can I demand a specific treatment? - Health questions - NHS Choices

Straight from the NHS web site:
Remember that:
 some types of treatment aren't available on the NHS

But at least it's cheaper!  In fact not getting treatment is universally cheaper.

'I went abroad for prostate cancer therapy... and I'm sending the NHS

"While the NHS acknowledges the benefits of proton therapy and plans to build its own centres, many patients are given inferior treatments simply because the cost of sending patients to the US for this treatment – well over £100,000 - is too high.”

There you go.   Yeah, we'll get that treatment here.... eventually.... but for now the cost is just too high, so you get this inferior treatment, and hope you live.   Yeah, maybe you'd like a say in that, but since we're footing the bill, we'll make that call for you.

You know.... so we keep cost down.  Wouldn't want to be as expensive as the US.

This is the problem dude.  Comparing US to the UK health care, is not an apples to apples comparison.  Never has been.







Every time they have compared real survival rates on nearly everything, the US does better, and by a wide margin.

Do you really want to cut costs and risk dying more?   You really want to cause literally millions of people to die, to save a few bucks?


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## Synthaholic (Oct 30, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> The letter from Florida Blue arrived yesterday and my insurance premiums will have a 350% increase starting this January.  Affordable Care Act?  Thanks Barry!  Thanks Harry!  Thanks Nancy!  Thanks Democrats!
> 
> What the hell happened to my savings of $2,500 a year?


And why are you not blaming insurers?

Health care costs went up every single year before Obamacare.

I swear, you people are gullible.  You believe wingnut media over your own past experiences.


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## Synthaholic (Oct 30, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> I've said it again, and I guess I'll just keep repeating myself.
> 
> In 2006, I got an insurance policy for just $67 a month.
> 
> ...


Your $67 policy was worthless.  If you came down with a catastrophic medical condition do you think your $67 policy was going to cover it?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  And if THEY decided (Death Panels) that your condition was pre-existing they would have told you to take a hike.  Under Obamacare they can no longer do that.


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## Synthaholic (Oct 30, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> There are rate increase letters going out to people across this country right now and when the people SEE what it is that you've saddled them with...they are going to go BALLISTIC!!!


And the insurance corporations are INNOCENT victims!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




What's the compensation package for the CEOs of CIGNA, AETNA and Humana?  What was it before the ACA?  I guarantee it has skyrocketed, while they overcharge you - because they can.


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## Synthaholic (Oct 30, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > Oldstyle said:
> ...


Many problems with the ACA could be fixed but Republicans won't let it get fixed because they don't want it to be successful.

But you refuse to blame Republicans.


Also, please show me where in the ACA it forces you to change doctors.  It doesn't.  Insurers make you do that.


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## MarathonMike (Oct 30, 2016)

Synthaholic said:


> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> > frigidweirdo said:
> ...


Well at least you are now acknowledging that the ACA has many problems. That is the first step to recovery.


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## Oldstyle (Oct 30, 2016)

Synthaholic said:


> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> > The letter from Florida Blue arrived yesterday and my insurance premiums will have a 350% increase starting this January.  Affordable Care Act?  Thanks Barry!  Thanks Harry!  Thanks Nancy!  Thanks Democrats!
> ...



Mine went up 350% you buffoon!  *350%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


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## Andylusion (Oct 30, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > Oldstyle said:
> ...



What many people are failing to realize, is that ultimately, when you socialized the cost, someone has to pay the bill.

Das U!   You are obviously deemed to have enough money to afford the cost.


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## Oldstyle (Oct 30, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...



Naive lemmings like Synthaholic enabled Barack Obama, Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi to get away with lying to the American people.  Whatever those Progressive leaders said...Synthaholic was here defending it and attacking anyone who pointed out that the numbers simply didn't add up.  So now that it's becoming obvious that Democrats lied repeatedly about the ACA...and knew that they were doing so...Synthaholic is here to do damage control.


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## MarathonMike (Oct 30, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...


I don't recall that being a selling point for the ACA when it was being foisted on the American people by Obozo. Are you saying that the government is making an assessment on each of us and deeming if we have enough money to jack our rates 300%?


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## Oldstyle (Oct 30, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...



In order for me to "afford" the cost of my health insurance under the ACA I'm going to have to cut back on expenses other places.  The car I was looking to replace with a new one will have to last longer...less eating out...no new toys.  Just wait until you see what this does to the economy when other Middle Class people like me have to start making hard choices about what they can cut back on to pay for a massive increase in their healthcare costs.


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## Oldstyle (Oct 30, 2016)

MarathonMike said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Oldstyle said:
> ...



Is there really any doubt that the progressives who pushed the ACA through Congress knew all along how much it was going to cost and who would end up footing the bill for it?  Their promises that the Affordable Care Act was going to help the Middle Class is one of the great lies of our time.


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## Andylusion (Oct 30, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Oldstyle said:
> ...



Well of course.

That's true of all leftwing stupidity.   Unions demand tariffs on imported goods, to protect American jobs.

Same deal.  If you an I have to pay more for all these goods and services, guess what happens when we spend less on everything.

Same thing.   The left-wing never thinks about the consequences of their actions.

Let's increase the minimum wage.  Well great. What happens when we all have to cut back?

Jack up insurance premiums.  So the poor can have cheaper insurance.    What happens when we can't afford other things?

Then they scream and squeal like little pigs when the tax revenue projections fall, and we start jacking up government deficits.


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## Redpath (Oct 30, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...





But Annie, none of those things are true.  Deficits? President Obama cut the deficit by what? Two thirds? Three fourths. 

Facts don't matter to the right. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Andylusion (Oct 30, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> MarathonMike said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...



Well..... yeah.    Actually I'll give them the benefit of the doubt..... the doubt they were smart enough, informed enough, or wise enough to have a clue how devastating their policies are.

The fact is, most of the left is ignorant.   Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers.

So yes, I think it is reasonable to think some moronic left-winger could sit there and think "Yes socialism has completely and utterly destroyed every country it's ever been implemented in, with the latest being Venezuela..... but....   FEEL THE BURN!  HOPE AND CHANGE! YES WE CAN!."


That chick really was that stupid.  Many of them were.  And as you can see on this forum... many still are.

The people at the top, are just people like this, that continued up the stupid change.


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## boedicca (Oct 30, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> The letter from Florida Blue arrived yesterday and my insurance premiums will have a 350% increase starting this January.  Affordable Care Act?  Thanks Barry!  Thanks Harry!  Thanks Nancy!  Thanks Democrats!
> 
> What the hell happened to my savings of $2,500 a year?



Well, you know what Dear Leader Mompants has to say about money:

"At some point you've made enough money."

Clearly, now that you've made "enough", he wants to spread it around.


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## Andylusion (Oct 30, 2016)

Redpath said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Oldstyle said:
> ...



After jacking up the deficit to $1.6 Trillion, you ignore that, and give him credit for cutting it by $400 Billion.

Yeah, someone like you using the word 'truth', is mighty amusing.


----------



## Redpath (Oct 30, 2016)

Vigilante said:


> OP is a selfish bastard. look at all the indigent and illegals that can now have Healthcare on YOUR money!!!!!



Viggy 

No illegals can sign up for ObamaCare but they can avail themselves of St Ronnies emtala. 

Same with indigent. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Andylusion (Oct 30, 2016)

Redpath said:


> Vigilante said:
> 
> 
> > OP is a selfish bastard. look at all the indigent and illegals that can now have Healthcare on YOUR money!!!!!
> ...



So I actually know of an illegal, who has medicaid.... which is paid for by Obamacare.

Lie much?


----------



## Vigilante (Oct 30, 2016)

Redpath said:


> Vigilante said:
> 
> 
> > OP is a selfish bastard. look at all the indigent and illegals that can now have Healthcare on YOUR money!!!!!
> ...


Sometimes I wonder how you commie bastards get away with the bullshit you spread...because it's law, under this lawless regime, everything is possible

*Illegal Immigrants Get Obamacare Benefit Despite Federal Ban | The Daily ...*
The Daily Caller › 2016/03/25 › states-ar...
Mar 25, 2016 - Pedro Rojas holds a sign directing people to an insurance company where they can sign up for the Affordable Care Act, also known as Obamacare


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## Oldstyle (Oct 30, 2016)

boedicca said:


> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> > The letter from Florida Blue arrived yesterday and my insurance premiums will have a 350% increase starting this January.  Affordable Care Act?  Thanks Barry!  Thanks Harry!  Thanks Nancy!  Thanks Democrats!
> ...



Damn Boedicca...I'm just trying to make what I made last!  When you're figuring out what you need to have saved up to retire comfortably on it helps if you don't have to worry about someone increasing the cost of your healthcare by 350%.  Meanwhile Barry's about to ride off into the sunset with a killer pension, healthcare and Secret Service protection?  Nice deal for him when he's fucked the Middle Class!


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## Oldstyle (Oct 30, 2016)

Redpath said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Oldstyle said:
> ...



Barack Obama will have increased the National Debt by more than any American President in history when he leaves office.  Does that FACT matter to you?


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## boedicca (Oct 30, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> > Oldstyle said:
> ...




My heart goes out to you, friendo.    People who have taken responsibility for themselves, working hard and saving for their future, have been severely harmed by Obama and the Progressive Agenda in general.   The Pols impose hardship on working people while they themselves live high on the hog as their expense.

It's appalling.


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## frigidweirdo (Oct 30, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > Oldstyle said:
> ...



Oh my God, you literally copied and pasted half a post. Seriously dude, I'm not dealing with that shit. I'm not searching your post to try and find which bits are new or not. Either repost without repeating whole chunks of something you probably copied from someone else in the first place, or just don't bother.


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## frigidweirdo (Oct 30, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > Oldstyle said:
> ...



How much is the ACA costing you? How much of the increase has nothing to do with the ACA? How much of that increase is due to insurance companies putting prices up, hospitals putting prices up, pharma companies putting prices up?






There was already an increase. A doubling in 10 years. So you tell me how much the ACA is costing you, and how much is just down to this "normal" increase.


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## frigidweirdo (Oct 30, 2016)

WillowTree said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > Oldstyle said:
> ...



Well, seeing as the right decided they wanted a system of healthcare that included health insurance so that healthcare costs you loads of money, now you're whining that Obama is going through that same system.

Seems a little ridiculous to not complain that you have to pay loads of money for healthcare because loads of people have their fingers in the pie and you have to pay profits to all of them, but then you complain when the costs rise. Why didn't you complain before? Why did you accept the system before, now complain when it's more expensive? It's been getting more expensive every year, year on year, but you only complain when Obamacare gets in.


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## Oldstyle (Oct 30, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> > frigidweirdo said:
> ...



Is a 350% increase "normal" to you, Frigid?  I've never had an increase that even came close to that!  You talk about a doubling over ten years?  Mine has gone up three and a half times what it was *IN ONE YEAR*!


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## frigidweirdo (Oct 30, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > Oldstyle said:
> ...



Like I said, I want the facts. Without the facts, I can't say much, can I?


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## Synthaholic (Oct 30, 2016)

MarathonMike said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > Oldstyle said:
> ...


I've been saying it for years.  No legislation is perfect when initially passed.  The difference is Congress does revisions and fixes.  Their refusal to fix problems in the ACA are purely political.


----------



## Synthaholic (Oct 30, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > Oldstyle said:
> ...


Yet you have no blame for the insurance companies, who I'm sure you believe are struggling to pay their rent.


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## Synthaholic (Oct 30, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Oldstyle said:
> ...


Did you have insurance before the ACA?  Did that insurance never go up in price?


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## Wyatt earp (Oct 30, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> The letter from Florida Blue arrived yesterday and my insurance premiums will have a 350% increase starting this January.  Affordable Care Act?  Thanks Barry!  Thanks Harry!  Thanks Nancy!  Thanks Democrats!
> 
> What the hell happened to my savings of $2,500 a year?




Ya know you will never see a USMB liberal post a thread like this, because they don't work , pay taxes and don't have a first hand clue what you are talking about


.


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## Synthaholic (Oct 30, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> So the poor can have cheaper insurance.


No, so the poor can have insurance, period, and can stop going to the emergency room for their basic medical needs, which was costing taxpayers huge amounts.


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## Synthaholic (Oct 30, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> That chick really was that stupid. Many of them were. And as you can see on this forum... many still are.


As stupid as Trump supporters?


----------



## Wyatt earp (Oct 30, 2016)

Synthaholic said:


> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...




Who enabled them? Obama care and the mandate

Just like democrats enabled colleges to raise cost through the roof with easy school loans


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## Synthaholic (Oct 30, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> Redpath said:
> 
> 
> > Vigilante said:
> ...


You seem to lie quite a bit.  Illegals cannot get Medicaid.


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## Synthaholic (Oct 30, 2016)

bear513 said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > Oldstyle said:
> ...


How did they need enabling?  What kept them from raising prices before the ACA?  Nothing.


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## Vigilante (Oct 30, 2016)

Synthaholic said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > That chick really was that stupid. Many of them were. And as you can see on this forum... many still are.
> ...


Good I hate stupid fagerals...
*How Undocumented Immigrants Sometimes Receive Medicaid Treatment | ...*
PBS › newshour › rundown › how-undo...
Feb 13, 2013 - But while federal law generally bars illegal immigrants from being covered by Medicaid, a little-known part of the state-federal health insurance program for the poor pays about $2 billion a year for emergency treatment for a group of patients who, according to hospitals, mostly comprise illegal immigrants.

*Medicaid for Illegal Immigrants | Emergency Medicaid*
www.emergencymedicaid.net › emergen...
At this time, the emergency Medicaid for illegal immigrants is providing assistance to those who cannot afford to pay the high costs for health care coverage. Medicaidhealth insurance is federally funded and is available to low income families and individuals


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## Synthaholic (Oct 30, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> Redpath said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...


How did he do that when the purse strings are controlled by the House and the House has been run by Republicans since 2011?


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## Indeependent (Oct 30, 2016)

Synthaholic said:


> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> > Redpath said:
> ...


I suggest rallying the vote.


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## Andylusion (Oct 30, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > frigidweirdo said:
> ...



Left-wing debating strategy....

"You literally copied and pasted links, and quotes directly relevant to the discussion at hand that contradict my stated position and claims!.......  Seriously dude, I'm not dealing with that shit."






  Ok dude.  No problem.


----------



## Andylusion (Oct 30, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> > frigidweirdo said:
> ...



Two problems.

You claim it's a normal increase.    But is that in fact true?

In 2006, I got an insurance policy that was $67 a month.  Today the cheapest is $250+.

That's not "a normal increase" by any measure I know of.

Here's what happened.  I had a basic catastrophic coverage insurance policy.  It was simple, and perfect for my needs.

Thanks to ObamaCare, you can't get those types of policies anymore.  They simply don't exist.     As a result, the left-wing idiots are comparing the full coverage expensive plans of 2006 to the expensive full coverage plans that ObamaCare requires by government regulation.

Yeah, if you compare expensive to expensive, then wow... the increase is only 11%.

Problem is, in the real world, where some of us had cheaper lower coverage insurance, going from $67 to $250, is not "only a normal increase".

*The second problem is, while you are in fact correct the insurance premiums increased faster than inflation, what you never bother to ask is 'why?'.*

The typical left-wing logic is:
1 never ask questions
2 cite the fact prices have gone up
3 demand a government program and regulations
4 and blame the rich.

But in reality the entire reason health care prices have gone up, is specifically because of government programs and regulations.

I'll give you the most obvious and well documented example.






Medicare, and Medicaid both (medicaid being the worst of the two), pay less than the cost of treatment.

So as you can see from the graph, as Medicare and Medicaid reduce their prices, the money lost to health care providers goes up.   As a result you can see the green line is private costs goes up, when payouts from Medicare and Medicaid go down.

This is called cost shifting.  They are shifting the money lost on gov-patients, to private patients.  We have to pay a much higher price than real cost of care, so that Medicare and Medicaid patients pay a lower price.   There is no free lunch.  There is no 'regulation to savings' system.  Someone has to pay the bill.

This is because of government programs and government regulations.

*So what did the left-wing do?   They looked at a price increases caused by government regulations and government programs, and immediately jumped to the standard default left-wing response to all problems, and demanded more regulations and more government programs.*

And then when the endless programs and regulations didn't have the result they wanted.... now they are saying "well obviously it's corruption and greed".

Then they come on forums like this, and wonder why we're blaming ObamaCare for making it worse.   Well what did ObamaCare do?  Drastically increase Medicaid, and increased Medicare, and drastically increased costly regulations on the insurance industry, which as you can see from the graph naturally results in cost shifting towards private insurers......   which is us.


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## Andylusion (Oct 31, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> Andylusion said:
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Ok ok ok ... hold on....

My apology.   I assumed you were being deflective, because I missed your response.

I didn't actually cut and paste anything, which is why I assumed that.

The problem is I wrote that post at 4 AM.  I don't know if you know this, but the forum has a maintenance cycle at 4 AM, and when you click on post... nothing happens.

So nothing happened, I realized how late it was, and went to bed.  When I woke up I clicked post.   What I didn't know is that it actually did post at 4 AM.  Just didn't show up on my computer.

So it's not a cut paste, it's a duplicate post.

Honest mistake.  My bad.  Sorry for jumping to conclusions.... like you did.  J/K!


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## frigidweirdo (Oct 31, 2016)

Andylusion said:


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Did you, or did you not post the same thing in two different posts? 

Yes you did. Don't fucking try and come at me and complain this is "left wing debate strategy", you did it, and it's pretty fucking clear you did it.


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## frigidweirdo (Oct 31, 2016)

Andylusion said:


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No, I didn't say it was a normal increase. I said increases were normal. 

What you've said is that it was X amount in 2006 and now it's X+Y amount today, but nowhere have you shown me that this has anything to do with Obamacare. You're just expecting me to believe you. Why would I just believe you?

Is it thanks to Obamacare, or is it thanks to the Insurance Companies? Who took these policies away? But luckily for you, you can hop onto a plane to London and get healthcare free. So..... 

For fuck's sake, you're throwing "this is left wing tactics" at me again. Stop it, it doesn't do anything, you do it again, i'm not going to reply. 

You're accusing me of not asking questions, when I've asked you questions. 
You're accusing me of citing FACTS. Fucking hell. It's a "left wing tactic" to cite facts? Well I'd fucking hope so.
You're accusing me of wanting the govt to sort out the problem. What, so you don't want the problem solved? Fucking hell.
Blame the rich? Er... Trump is blaming the rich and loads of Republicans are going to vote for him for that. Who controls govt? Oh, the rich. But it's not their fault that they're controlling it, whose fault is it then? Your fault? Fine, next time I'll just blame you for everything.

Your example means what? It means that health insurance sucks and is a bad way of dealing with healthcare. Often the govt run programs pay less than what the hospitals charge because the hospitals charge way too fucking much.

You think it's about more govt regulation? No, I'm saying go for total govt control so that all people can get medical care without having to deal with the leeches that are insurance companies which cost you an absolute fortune. If insurance companies cost you 28% of your healthcare costs, you pay $250 a year,  you're paying $70 a year just to the insurance companies every year for them to do nothing worthwhile. The reality is 50% of what you are spending you wouldn't be spending in the UK, even in 2010 when the NHS was good. And you're complaining it costs too much, without actually looking at why it costs too much.

You like paying $70 a year to insurance companies to basically do nothing worthwhile?


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## frigidweirdo (Oct 31, 2016)

Andylusion said:


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Oh, right. I noticed the bottom half was different though, there was some chart, so I assumed you were just throwing the same thing at me.


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## Ravi (Oct 31, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


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I would like to see the letter you got. I think you are not being honest.


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## Iceweasel (Oct 31, 2016)

Ravi said:


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Stories abound all over the country like that. You are a brainwashed leftist that no longer owns your own mind.


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## Oldstyle (Oct 31, 2016)

Ravi said:


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Actually Ravi...I'm the only one being honest in this discussion!  You progressives lied to us about being able to keep your plan if you liked it.  You lied to us about being able to keep your doctor if you liked them.  You lied to us about the average Middle Class family saving $2,500 a year in premiums.

I lost my old plan because it was no longer offered.  My old doctor opted out of taking ACA patients so I now have someone new..  My healthcare premiums are going up 350% in January.  Yet you doubt MY honesty?  Why don't you go fuck yourself!


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## Care4all (Oct 31, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> Ravi said:
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What are ACA patients?  Are you saying your doctor stopped taking all patients who have health care insurance?  So he only takes cash, or Medicare???


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## Oldstyle (Oct 31, 2016)

Are you really that clueless, Care?


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## WillowTree (Oct 31, 2016)

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/15/sunday-review/sorry-we-dont-take-obamacare.html?_r=0


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## Ravi (Oct 31, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> Ravi said:
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I didn't think you'd produce it.


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## Oldstyle (Oct 31, 2016)

What is with you people?  You rabidly support something that you seem to know nothing about.  Is it sheer stupidity or are you willfully ignoring reality?


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## Care4all (Oct 31, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> Are you really that clueless, Care?


I guess I am....so could you please answer my questions...


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## Oldstyle (Oct 31, 2016)

In the case of my previous doctor he made the decision to drop people on ObamaCare because he was getting paid less for services for them then he was for those with private insurance plans.  I couldn't "keep" my doctor because he wouldn't take my plan!  Do you really not know that people all over the country are having a hard time finding doctors that accept ObamaCare patients?


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## Fenton Lum (Oct 31, 2016)

Iceweasel said:


> Oldstyle said:
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> 
> > How the hell do they expect us to pay for this?  I'm in shock.  I'm seriously in shock.
> ...



Oh, so basically, trickle down economics again.


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## Care4all (Oct 31, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> In the case of my previous doctor he made the decision to drop people on ObamaCare because he was getting paid less for services for them then he was for those with private insurance plans.  I couldn't "keep" my doctor because he wouldn't take my plan!  Do you really not know that people all over the country are having a hard time finding doctors that accept ObamaCare patients?


do you have some kind of link with proof that the insurance companies on the Exchange pay less to doctors for specific procedures than they do with their insurance policies they offer off of the exchange?


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## Oldstyle (Oct 31, 2016)

Care4all said:


> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> > In the case of my previous doctor he made the decision to drop people on ObamaCare because he was getting paid less for services for them then he was for those with private insurance plans.  I couldn't "keep" my doctor because he wouldn't take my plan!  Do you really not know that people all over the country are having a hard time finding doctors that accept ObamaCare patients?
> ...



You really ARE that clueless about what's going on with the ACA...aren't you, Care?


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## Oldstyle (Oct 31, 2016)

"The Affordable Care Act increased insurers’ costs by forbidding denial of coverage to consumers with pre-existing conditions and by imposing taxes and fees to fund aspects of the new law. To make up for ACA costs and keep premiums low, Blue Shield asked its doctors and hospitals to accept payments from the insurer at rates reduced up to 30 percent.

Not surprisingly, some doctors and hospitals rejected Blue Shield’s reduced payment rates and decided not to re-sign contracts with the insurer. At least three major Los Angeles hospitals previously covered by Blue Shield — UCLA, Cedars Sinai and Good Samaritan — have opted out of the insurer’s new network, said Lindy Wagner, corporate communications manager of Blue Shield."

How Obamacare Leaves Some People Without Doctors | Huffington Post


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## Fenton Lum (Oct 31, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


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Most of the public is, including you, you're merely scratching an emotional itch.


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## Fenton Lum (Oct 31, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> "The Affordable Care Act increased insurers’ costs by forbidding denial of coverage to consumers with pre-existing conditions and by imposing taxes and fees to fund aspects of the new law. To make up for ACA costs and keep premiums low, Blue Shield asked its doctors and hospitals to accept payments from the insurer at rates reduced up to 30 percent.
> 
> Not surprisingly, some doctors and hospitals rejected Blue Shield’s reduced payment rates and decided not to re-sign contracts with the insurer. At least three major Los Angeles hospitals previously covered by Blue Shield — UCLA, Cedars Sinai and Good Samaritan — have opted out of the insurer’s new network, said Lindy Wagner, corporate communications manager of Blue Shield."
> 
> How Obamacare Leaves Some People Without Doctors | Huffington Post



Yes, our approach to health"care" in america leaves some out in the cold.  On purpose, we want it that way.  It was that way before this approach, it's that way now, it will be that way going forward, we made that bargain long ago, that's just who we are as a society.


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## Oldstyle (Oct 31, 2016)

Fenton Lum said:


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A 350% increase in my premiums isn't an "emotional itch", you buffoon!  You're even dumber than Care is...and that's saying something!


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## Oldstyle (Oct 31, 2016)

Fenton Lum said:


> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> > "The Affordable Care Act increased insurers’ costs by forbidding denial of coverage to consumers with pre-existing conditions and by imposing taxes and fees to fund aspects of the new law. To make up for ACA costs and keep premiums low, Blue Shield asked its doctors and hospitals to accept payments from the insurer at rates reduced up to 30 percent.
> ...



So I'm "out in the cold"?  That's your response to what I'm facing?  Nice to know what you liberals REALLY think about Middle Class people like myself, Fenton!


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## Fenton Lum (Oct 31, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


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You're on Obamacare?  Mine went up this year as well, 400%, and the deductable went up 300%, through the corporation I work for.


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## Oldstyle (Oct 31, 2016)

Fenton Lum said:


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You might pass that information along to Ravi...who thinks I'm lying when I say my premiums are going up 350%!


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## Fenton Lum (Oct 31, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


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Calm down with the partisanshit, the labelling because we don't see things the same way, and let's attempt a conversation shall we?  We are all out in the cold, all of us.  WE have THE most expensive health"care" system on the planet - both before and after Obamacare - and for far worse health outcomes that other advanced societies.  We just refuse to look at those other systems with an eye toward incorporating what works other places here.  So yeah, we will all continue to suffer so others can maximize their profit.  We've married ourselves to that approach.  I'm not defending Obamacare, I'm just saying we were all fucked even before that, and it was not the end all be all of our problem here with healthcare as a society.


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## Fenton Lum (Oct 31, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


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Ravi is not my responsibility, besides, he may be stuck in his own partisanshitheadedness; it's a personal journey out of that space into reality.


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## Fenton Lum (Oct 31, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


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I said through the company I work for.  THAT insurance.


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## Oldstyle (Oct 31, 2016)

Fenton Lum said:


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Because of the ACA we now STILL have the most expensive healthcare system in the world but it's no longer as good as it was because you can't get access to a doctor because of the ACA!  Say what you want to say, Fenton...I NEVER saw anything even close to a 350% increase in my healthcare premiums in one calendar year before the ACA came into being.  Pointing that out isn't being "partisan"...it's being honest...something that Progressive leaders like Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi and Barack Obama were NOT when they were selling us the Affordable Care Act!


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## Fenton Lum (Oct 31, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


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That plan was hatched at the Heritage Foundation in response to Hilary's meddling about with healthcare as first lady.  What did you think the Heritage Foundation would come up with, something for the little people?  C'mon.  What works other places has an "ism" attached to it here conceptually.  My guess is you object to that as well.  Your healthcare system is predatory, you can blame it on "progressives" if that makes you fell better, but it doesn't sound to me like it does make you feel better.  And it still doesn't address an issue that's not going away, "neither" party gives a shyte about the workling class, we're all sharecroppers now.


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## Oldstyle (Oct 31, 2016)

Fenton Lum said:


> Oldstyle said:
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Do you not understand THAT insurance's costs were affected by the provisions in the ACA?


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## Fenton Lum (Oct 31, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


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I understand it has been this way all my working life, always goes up, every year, for over 4 decades, yes, I do.


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## Oldstyle (Oct 31, 2016)

Fenton Lum said:


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So over those 4 decades, Fenton...has it ever gone up 350% in one year?


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## Oldstyle (Oct 31, 2016)

Has it ever gone up 200%?


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## Oldstyle (Oct 31, 2016)

Has it ever increased 100% in one year?


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## JQPublic1 (Oct 31, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> The letter from Florida Blue arrived yesterday and my insurance premiums will have a 350% increase starting this January.  Affordable Care Act?  Thanks Barry!  Thanks Harry!  Thanks Nancy!  Thanks Democrats!
> 
> What the hell happened to my savings of $2,500 a year?


Be thankful. Without Obamacare your premiums  could have seen a 400% or higher increase. Or worse, if you got sick you would be dropped like a hot potato.

Perhaps you should consider moving to Pence territory: Indiana. There the rates dropped in 2016 and that trend is on track to continue into 2017. PSST: Mike Pence has been eerily silent on this… Hmmmm!

Indiana had biggest drop in Obamacare rates in 2016
http://www.indystar.com/story/news/politics/2015/06/11/obamacare-premiums-drop-indiana/71077884/


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## Oldstyle (Oct 31, 2016)

But you blame a 350% increase on the Heritage Foundation and not the Affordable Care Act?  You might want to rethink your premise...


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## Weatherman2020 (Oct 31, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> The letter from Florida Blue arrived yesterday and my insurance premiums will have a 350% increase starting this January.  Affordable Care Act?  Thanks Barry!  Thanks Harry!  Thanks Nancy!  Thanks Democrats!
> 
> What the hell happened to my savings of $2,500 a year?


Obama promised change, you got it.


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## Weatherman2020 (Oct 31, 2016)

JQPublic1 said:


> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> > The letter from Florida Blue arrived yesterday and my insurance premiums will have a 350% increase starting this January.  Affordable Care Act?  Thanks Barry!  Thanks Harry!  Thanks Nancy!  Thanks Democrats!
> ...


Liar.


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## Oldstyle (Oct 31, 2016)

JQPublic1 said:


> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> > The letter from Florida Blue arrived yesterday and my insurance premiums will have a 350% increase starting this January.  Affordable Care Act?  Thanks Barry!  Thanks Harry!  Thanks Nancy!  Thanks Democrats!
> ...



Why would my premiums have gone up 400% without the ACA?  They never increased more than around 20% EVER...yet you claim they "could" have gone up 400%?  Give me a reason why that would have taken place, JQ!


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## Fenton Lum (Oct 31, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> Has it ever increased 100% in one year?



Yes to 100 and 200, not sure about your alleged 350, and not sure what that has to do with anything other than you need to blame something other than the core issue of the underlying problem.  And you can, that's fine, I've just decided it's the wrong tree to bark up, and that we'll be doing this forever until we come up with a toally different way to look at healthcare in america.  That's all.

But look, employers have been sliding out of any responsibility for worker's healthcare plans for decades; they want this cost off their books.  And they will continue to move in that direction.  Watch.


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## Fenton Lum (Oct 31, 2016)

Weatherman2020 said:


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Go on .....


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## Oldstyle (Oct 31, 2016)

Fenton Lum said:


> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> > Has it ever increased 100% in one year?
> ...



What year did you have 100 and 200% increases in your healthcare premiums?  Since before the ACA there was competition between insurance companies and any company increasing premiums that steeply would have lost customers in a stampede for their competitors I'm assuming that those increases would have taken place across the healthcare insurance industry?  I never saw an increase even close to 100% let alone 200% so I'm curious to know what insurance provider you had that raised yours so high?


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## Fenton Lum (Oct 31, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


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Competition?  Really, you believe it was just all free market driven before ObamaCare?  Amazing.  You do know that the insurance industry and the pharma industry were in the room to maintain their interests in the tweaking of Obamacare right?  And you think those interests were in holding your premiums down?  You know the pharma industry gouges the american public to recapture what they "lose" in dealing with other nation's single payer systems which hold down the cost of pharmaceuticals, right?  Look, you want to have a different discussion here.  My position is we have long had a problem with our approach to healthcare in this society.  ObamaCare neither made it apprecialby better or worse for soceity as a whole, I said for soceity as a whole.

We are going to have to deal with this at some point or health"care" will be for the substantial people alone.


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## Weatherman2020 (Oct 31, 2016)

Fenton Lum said:


> Oldstyle said:
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Obamacare is an epic failure.  Nobody wants your bullshit spins, either post facts with links or move along.


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## Fenton Lum (Oct 31, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


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_"What if we applied this kind of analysis to health care? The results are quite interesting. In 1958, per capita health expenditures were $134. This may seem astonishingly small, but it actually includes everything, inclusive of care paid for by government or private health insurers. A worker earning the average wage in 1958 ($1.98) would have had to work 118 hours—nearly 15 days–to cover this expense. By 2012, per capita health spending had climbed to $8,953. At the average wage, a typical worker would have to work 467 hours—about 58 days.

In short, while time prices for other goods and services had shrunk to less than one quarter of their 1958 levels, time prices for health care had more than quadrupled!"_

The Cost of Health Care: 1958 vs. 2012


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## Fenton Lum (Oct 31, 2016)

Weatherman2020 said:


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Not really concerned with your approval hon.


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## Weatherman2020 (Oct 31, 2016)

Fenton Lum said:


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And at 350% increases per year now with Obamacare what's the cost going to be in 2050, dufus?

Costs have risen because of crazy lawsuits, which Obamacare ignored because Democrats are all lawyers protecting their goldmine.


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## Fenton Lum (Oct 31, 2016)

Weatherman2020 said:


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It will keep going up like it always has until we really deal with it, yes.  It is a for profit system after all, that's the goal.  You see partisanshit in everything, but "neither" side is dealing with it.


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## Weatherman2020 (Oct 31, 2016)

Fenton Lum said:


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"Always has" was 5-10%, not 350%.
Obamacare has imploded.  Millions are losing their insurance now as a result because they simply must chose between food on the table or insurance.


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## Fenton Lum (Oct 31, 2016)

Weatherman2020 said:


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It has always been that way for many, and yes, like I said, the issue has not been dealt with.


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## JQPublic1 (Oct 31, 2016)

Weatherman2020 said:


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No… I lived  during that pre-Obamacare era….You are just a damn fool.


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## JQPublic1 (Oct 31, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


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Actually I was just being sarcastic in response to the ridiculous op's assertion that his premiums will go up 350%. BS


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## Ravi (Oct 31, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> JQPublic1 said:
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Why can't you black out identifying information and post the letter?

You are claiming an arbitrary rise of 350 % and that would mean if you were paying 400 your new rate is 1400.

I'd like to see a Medicare for all program, full disclosure.

Pony up or look like a liar.


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## Weatherman2020 (Oct 31, 2016)

JQPublic1 said:


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Love this website. Dufus who justifies a 350% increase as being OK calls me a fool.


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## Andylusion (Nov 1, 2016)

JQPublic1 said:


> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> > The letter from Florida Blue arrived yesterday and my insurance premiums will have a 350% increase starting this January.  Affordable Care Act?  Thanks Barry!  Thanks Harry!  Thanks Nancy!  Thanks Democrats!
> ...



This is typical left-wingism. Look at a complete train wreck, and say "well yes, but if not for us, it would have been worse".

Reminds me of the stimulus package.  Obama's own economic advisors said that without the stimulus plan, unemployment would hit 8% and take a long time to recover.  With the plan it would only hit 6% and take two years to recover.    Instead it hit 10% and has taken eight years, from 2008 when it was 5%, to get back to 5% where it got to this year.

And whenever you talk to a leftwinger "yeah but it would have been worse"... no your BS didn't work, just like ObamaCrap didn't work.


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## Yarddog (Nov 1, 2016)

Fenton Lum said:


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honestly, I don't blame my fellow Americans who voted for Obama,   what the democrats and others did to sneak this bill through lies entirely at their feet. If there is any other blame it should be at the feet of the media who consistently covers for the power structure.  Your right, they want half of us to be fighting the other half for revenge, I can see how they constantly do the same thing by manipulating racial tensions.   Now they are just working it from the other side.


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## frigidweirdo (Nov 1, 2016)

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It always was the case.


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## Andylusion (Nov 1, 2016)

Ravi said:


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It's amazing how many times a left winger will come on here, make grand statements, and expect us to take it at face value.   The moment a right-winger says something happen to them, you demand documented proof, and refuse to believe it otherwise.

It's like all the insurance companies terminating coverage.   We say that.  It's in the papers.  It's well known.   Yet when I say "My insurance company canceled my policy.  Thanks ObamaCare" you don't believe it until I post a picture.



 
Came in my mail box.  Is that proof enough for you?

The number of insurance policies available in Ohio, is now down to 2 companies.  And the number of policy options is now down to 8.  When I first applied for private coverage back in 2006, there were 3 pages of policies to choose from, from a dozen companies.

But thanks to ObamaCare, they removed from me all those choices.  Apparently the public isn't smart enough to make their own choices.   So left-wing elites, and their arrogant self-important followers, decided to make my choices for me.

Thanks Left-wingers.   We all love you dictating our lives.  Idiots.


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## Andylusion (Nov 1, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


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No, it wasn't.  Only in your mythology you used to justify screwing us all over, has it "always been the case".


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## frigidweirdo (Nov 1, 2016)

Andylusion said:


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Oh, right, so millions of people didn't have to choose between healthcare and putting food on the table before? then explain why so many people didn't have healthcare before Obamacare then?


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## Andylusion (Nov 1, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> Andylusion said:
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Huh?  Really?   After all this time, you never heard the facts?

First of, according to the US census, 40% of those without insurance, were making over $50,000 a year.   If you make over $50,000 a year and don't have insurance, it's because you bought a house, car, beer, and speed boat, instead of getting insurance.

Further, 20% of those, were living in households making $75K or more.  No excuses.

Only 30% made less than $25,000 a year.

Moreover, about 10% are illegals, which you claim can't get ObamaCare.  So why are you complaining they don't have insurance?

Lastly, because they choose to not get insurance.   There's a video on YouTube where a reporter asked this girl in California, why she didn't have insurance.  She was single, no kids, and had a middle class income.   "Well it's too expensive".   So they punched in her information, and found she could qualify for a basic health insurance plan and pay just $90 a month.  She said straight up "well I think it's ridiculous that I have to pay for health care".

Even more ironic, later in the interview she openly admitted that she easily spent $800 a month on eating out.

I myself went years without health insurance.   It was a choice. I could afford it... but choose not to have it.   Similarly I know other people who bought health insurance, and then canceled it.  They said very openly... why have it?  I don't need it.  So why pay for it?

Extremely few people simply can't afford health insurance.

And as a final note, even of those, the US Census found that 30% of the uninsured qualified for government insurance, and simply choose to not enroll in Medicaid or S-CHIP, or other programs.

That's why people don't have insurance.  It's a choice.


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## frigidweirdo (Nov 1, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...



Facts huh?

http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/p60-235.pdf

Here are some facts. 

In 2007 (looking at pg 22) 45 million people were uninsured which appears to be 15% of the population. 

8 million of these were under 18 years old. 33 million of these were native born with 9.7 million not being naturalized citizens. This doesn't mean they're illegal, it means they're not citizens, some of these could potentially be foreigner workers in the US with legal status. 

The South is the area with the highest amount, at 18% of the population. 

13 million of these people earned less than $25,000
14.5 million between $25,000 and $50,000. 
25.4% of those are people who didn't work. Remember that this was 2007 before the crash. 

Only 7.8%, not 20% as you stated, live in households earning more than $75,000 a year. 

Some people might have chosen not to get health insurance. That's not really the point. In the UK you don't have this choice, you pay if you work, and it gets taken out of your wages. 

Then when the shit hits the fan, they're covered regardless. 

But you're using lots of numbers to say this isn't many people. I disagree. 

$13.5 million people didn't have health insurance and probably couldn't afford it. That's a lot of people in my view. But you think those $13.5 million people should just be ignored because.... why exactly?


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 1, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > frigidweirdo said:
> ...


How many millions will drop their HC next year because they can't afford the 350% increase?


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 1, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > frigidweirdo said:
> ...


Why is Obama not suprised by the 350% rate hike and proposing fixes?


----------



## hadit (Nov 1, 2016)

Fenton Lum said:


> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...


They didn't implement their idea in legislation, democrats did.  Sorry, but you're going to have to put blame for the stool sample where it really belongs.


----------



## hadit (Nov 1, 2016)

Weatherman2020 said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...


Because he never intended to fix anything.  Obamadon'tcare was designed to make people so miserable they can be persuaded to give the same people that brought you the DMV control over your healthcare.


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## Fenton Lum (Nov 1, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > Oldstyle said:
> ...



Your life has always been dictated to you when it comes to healthcare in america, you're just more comfortable being under corporate control than control you have a vote in.


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## Fenton Lum (Nov 1, 2016)

hadit said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > frigidweirdo said:
> ...



Like their senators and congressmen and presidents and vice presidents and military personel and all the medicare/medicaid patients who wail anytime someone hints at taking it away from them.


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 1, 2016)

Fenton Lum said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > Weatherman2020 said:
> ...


There is a reason the Democrats who passed Hopeycare exempted themselves from it.


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## Fenton Lum (Nov 1, 2016)

Weatherman2020 said:


> Fenton Lum said:
> 
> 
> > hadit said:
> ...



Yes son, the substantial people always cut a better deal for themselves, all of them.  When you grow up and want to go after the entire problem instead of one half of it, come back around.


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## Synthaholic (Nov 1, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> *In the case of my previous doctor he made the decision to drop people on ObamaCare because he was getting paid less for services for them then he was for those with private insurance plans.*  I couldn't "keep" my doctor because he wouldn't take my plan!  Do you really not know that people all over the country are having a hard time finding doctors that accept ObamaCare patients?


This is total bullshit.  There is nothing on your insurance card that indicates whether you went through an exchange or not.  It's either an insurance corporation they accept, or it's not.  The ACA has nothing to do with it.

You're confusing the ACA with Medicaid, which some doctors have refused to accept.


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## Synthaholic (Nov 1, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> "The Affordable Care Act increased insurers’ costs by forbidding denial of coverage to consumers with pre-existing conditions and by imposing taxes and fees to fund aspects of the new law. *To make up for ACA costs* and keep premiums low, Blue Shield asked its doctors and hospitals to accept payments from the insurer at rates reduced up to 30 percent.


See?  All about keeping profits high, for those $20 million per year executives and their quarterly Wall Street reports.

This is not "proof" that Obamacare is raising rates.  It's only proof that insurance companies are determined to get everyone to pay more or accept less except for them.


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## Synthaholic (Nov 1, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> Fenton Lum said:
> 
> 
> > Oldstyle said:
> ...


If yours is going up 350% with an Obamacare policy, and Fenton's is going up 400% with a non-Obamacare policy, what does that tell you?

Think about it before posting.


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## Synthaholic (Nov 1, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> because you can't get access to a doctor because of the ACA!


No, because insurance corporations have made a decision based on their profits.  But you never blame them.


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## Synthaholic (Nov 1, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> Fenton Lum said:
> 
> 
> > Oldstyle said:
> ...


Says who?  Oh, that's right: says the insurance companies.


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## Fenton Lum (Nov 1, 2016)

Synthaholic said:


> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> > Fenton Lum said:
> ...



He'll claim mine is going up because of Obamacare, the perfect circular argument.  Never you mind it's been going up for 5 decades of a working lifetime.  You can't make sense with someone who's taken on a religious like fanaticism.


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## Synthaholic (Nov 1, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> But you blame a 350% increase on the Heritage Foundation and not the Affordable Care Act?  You might want to rethink your premise...


You can blame it on insurers who refuse to make a penny less profit.  Daddy needs another Gulfstream jet!


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## Synthaholic (Nov 1, 2016)

Weatherman2020 said:


> JQPublic1 said:
> 
> 
> > Oldstyle said:
> ...


Where's the lie, hack?


----------



## Synthaholic (Nov 1, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> Since before the ACA there was competition between insurance companies and any company increasing premiums that steeply would have lost customers in a stampede for their competitors


You talk nonsense.  The ACA didn't merge corporations.  There is still the same competition there was before, and all of the insurers are on the same playing field.

How has the ACA stifled competition?


----------



## Synthaholic (Nov 1, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > Oldstyle said:
> ...


Yes - if you're looking for *financial help* you have to use the exchange and pick one of those policies.

Why are you looking for financial help?


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## Synthaholic (Nov 1, 2016)

hadit said:


> Fenton Lum said:
> 
> 
> > Oldstyle said:
> ...


They could have.  Democrats asked them to co-write the bill and introduce their own amendments.  They refused to do anything because they thought they could just defeat the whole thing.

Another disastrous Republican calculation.


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## Wyatt earp (Nov 1, 2016)

Like we said Obama care is no health care, just screws the middle class...trickle up misery.


Americans Skipping Healthcare To Save Money


*Americans Skipping Healthcare To Save Money*

Some Americans are skipping the doctor to save pennies. A new survey says that one-third of Americans believe the high costs of medicare is forcing them to avoid treatment. The numbers are the same for people with or without health insurance. A quarter of Americans surveyed said they are struggling to pay for the care they need. *Seventy-nine percent say medicare is the top issue in this year's presidential election.*


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## miketx (Nov 1, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> The letter from Florida Blue arrived yesterday and my insurance premiums will have a 350% increase starting this January.  Affordable Care Act?  Thanks Barry!  Thanks Harry!  Thanks Nancy!  Thanks Democrats!
> 
> What the hell happened to my savings of $2,500 a year?


Vote for the whore! She'll fix it!


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## Wyatt earp (Nov 1, 2016)

Synthaholic said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > Fenton Lum said:
> ...




Yup the democrats wanted to fuck over the middle class no matter what.


.


----------



## Fenton Lum (Nov 1, 2016)

Synthaholic said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > Fenton Lum said:
> ...



Typical state corporatist tactic.  Screw it all up cockblocking and then say "see, govt doesn't work, let the oligarchs in and we'll privatize the whole thing so the unsubstantial people have NO chance at a vote or say.


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## Fenton Lum (Nov 1, 2016)

miketx said:


> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> > The letter from Florida Blue arrived yesterday and my insurance premiums will have a 350% increase starting this January.  Affordable Care Act?  Thanks Barry!  Thanks Harry!  Thanks Nancy!  Thanks Democrats!
> ...



No one has any intention of fixing anything, you'd do well to figure that out.


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## miketx (Nov 1, 2016)

Fenton Lum said:


> miketx said:
> 
> 
> > Oldstyle said:
> ...


You would do well in another area.


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## Fenton Lum (Nov 1, 2016)

bear513 said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > hadit said:
> ...



Congrats on figuring out half of the problem, your entire power structure is based upon fucking over the middle class no matter what


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## Fenton Lum (Nov 1, 2016)

miketx said:


> Fenton Lum said:
> 
> 
> > miketx said:
> ...



You're not.


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## Care4all (Nov 1, 2016)

Synthaholic said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > Fenton Lum said:
> ...


FYI

Actually, the Republicans WERE heavily involved in the bill....the Repubs got 150 Amendments to the bill passed before the final vote!


----------



## JQPublic1 (Nov 1, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> JQPublic1 said:
> 
> 
> > Oldstyle said:
> ...


The only "train wreck" on my horizon is that involving the Trump train. Before the PPACA was signed and enacted into law 50 million Americans were without insurance,primarily because it was too damn expensive. But even if you managed to scrape enough  change together to buy  health Insurance, you lived in fear of being dropped if you got sick. What kind of life was THAT? Further, pre-existing conditions, as defined by the insurer, could prevent you from having access to ANY insurance..unless you were willing to pay extremely high premiums. Does 400% over the norm sound so ridiculous  now?

So you want to regress back into that nightmarish gray world where Health insurance was just another scam to transfer wealth from the masses without serving their needs in the darkest hours: when they got sick. I , for one, say: forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take but give me Hillary or give me death. Trump is death…


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## JQPublic1 (Nov 1, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> JQPublic1 said:
> 
> 
> > Oldstyle said:
> ...


See post #214


----------



## Ravi (Nov 1, 2016)

Synthaholic said:


> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> > Fenton Lum said:
> ...


What it tells me is that he's a low wage earner looking to be subsidized by taxpayers


----------



## mudwhistle (Nov 1, 2016)

Iceweasel said:


> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> > How the hell do they expect us to pay for this?  I'm in shock.  I'm seriously in shock.
> ...


Help Hillary "Invest" in the Middle-class......


----------



## frigidweirdo (Nov 1, 2016)

Weatherman2020 said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...



Is everyone going to get a 350% increase? We have one person claiming they have such a rise. 

But then again this is more reason to get rid of insurance companies altogether and go for a Nationalized health service.


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## Ravi (Nov 1, 2016)

Mine went up 1000 a year. I do not purchase on the exchange.


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## frigidweirdo (Nov 1, 2016)

Weatherman2020 said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...



Why isn't Obama surprised the moon is made of cheese?


----------



## Care4all (Nov 1, 2016)

Ravi said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > Oldstyle said:
> ...


nahhh, If he receives subsidy, the subsidy will go up to cover the higher costs is what I had read....  those in need and on the exchange don't get hurt


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## Ravi (Nov 1, 2016)

Care4all said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...


Right. If he qualifies for a subsidy he's expecting us taxpayers to pay the difference. Kind of odd for a "conservative" to make that admission.


----------



## Wyatt earp (Nov 1, 2016)

Care4all said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > hadit said:
> ...



Oh please give us a break, in the end not one republican voted for the final Obama care bill

Download the Excel file here.


After all, they said, most of the 160 amendments were technical, rather than substantive, changes. Lisa Murkowsi of Alaska told the _New York Times_ that, while it was "pretty impressive" that 20 of her amendments were accepted, "they were all technical."


----------



## Care4all (Nov 1, 2016)

bear513 said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...


what the republicans chose to amend and/or ignore is THEIR problem, not mine....  it was their paid time with my tax dollars, that they chose to use for this so called, technical stuff....  what a bunch of 'do nothing' congress/senate critters....


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## Wyatt earp (Nov 1, 2016)

Care4all said:


> bear513 said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...




The panel was 13 democrats and 10 republicans, none of the republicans voted for it and how many amendments did the democrats throw out?


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## Sun Devil 92 (Nov 1, 2016)

Fenton Lum said:


> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...



Are people still spouting this lie ?

Boy, it's sad when hacks run out of new material.


----------



## Andylusion (Nov 1, 2016)

Care4all said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...



Ok, well, now I have concrete absolute proof of our claim.






Here was my old plan.

$80, which was $20 higher than the previous plan.

Here's what it's saying now.






$125 a month.   I can't afford that.   Thus ends my health insurance.  Can't afford that.

From $60 to $125?  Nah, sorry. Doubled my premiums in 2 years.

And by the way, the $60 had a $2,500 deductible.  The $80 had a $5,000 deductible.  Now it will be a $7,150 deductible.

You people... just live in your stupid socialists bubble, where your heros on high tell you endlessly how much better everything is, and ignore the voices of the people who actually live in the real world, facing the real costs..... even though they are the very people you claim to want to help.

Since I can't afford health insurance, I'll just go to the ER if I get sick, and you morons can foot 100% of the bill.


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## Faun (Nov 2, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> The letter from Florida Blue arrived yesterday and my insurance premiums will have a 350% increase starting this January.  Affordable Care Act?  Thanks Barry!  Thanks Harry!  Thanks Nancy!  Thanks Democrats!
> 
> What the hell happened to my savings of $2,500 a year?


You're so full of shit, your eyes are brown...

*Florida’s Obamacare premiums to rise average 19 percent in 2017, state says*


----------



## Faun (Nov 2, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> Fenton Lum said:
> 
> 
> > Other societies have figure this out, we don't want it figured out here.
> ...



Company/ Requested Premium Change / Approved
Blue Cross and Blue Shield of Florida, Inc. 14.5% *19.0%*

Why Florida OKed higher 2017 premiums than health insurers sought

Florida Blue -- up *19.0%*, not 350%.

Do you ever stop lying, ya con tool?

Ever??


----------



## Andylusion (Nov 2, 2016)

Faun said:


> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> > The letter from Florida Blue arrived yesterday and my insurance premiums will have a 350% increase starting this January.  Affordable Care Act?  Thanks Barry!  Thanks Harry!  Thanks Nancy!  Thanks Democrats!
> ...



Do you morons understand the word "average"?  It means some people could see huge rate increases, and if your special interest groups get smaller increases, it would "average" out.


----------



## Andylusion (Nov 2, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > frigidweirdo said:
> ...



Yeah, then we can wait 3 years to get health care.... but at least it will be cheap.  Instead of Canadians coming to the US to get care, we and the Canadians will have to got to Mexico.

Socialized care is the VA.  Have you not been paying attention?  The VA sucks.  Even my brother in law that came back from Iraq, paid for health care after realizing it would be years before he was seen.

You morons.


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## Faun (Nov 2, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> Faun said:
> 
> 
> > Oldstyle said:
> ...


First of all, if everyone's average is 19%, no one's is 350%. Secondly, if you see my very next post, you see Florida Blue went up 19%, not 350%. Thirdly, Oldstyle lies all the time; it's what he does.


----------



## Ravi (Nov 2, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...


You are comparing employee coverage that you got from your employer to an individual policy on the exchange. Why is that?


----------



## frigidweirdo (Nov 2, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > Weatherman2020 said:
> ...



3 years to wait? Only if people start playing around with it. Some people in the US didn't wait three years, they just died. But hey. 

Just because VA sucks, doesn't mean healthcare that is nationalized has to suck. I know people who have gone through nationalized healthcare and come out of it pretty well.


----------



## dfens (Nov 2, 2016)

The food industry pumps people full of unhealthy foods.  The tobacco industry pumps them full of tobacco.  The alcohol industry pumps them full of alcohol.  The "illegal" drug industry pumps them full of the worst addictive substances.  The pharmaceutical industry pumps them full of drugs.  Then when they get sick, the hospital industry takes people in and charges outrageously for what should be simple procedures.

And who pays?  Why, you do!  The average, working American sucker!

How does it feel?


----------



## sealybobo (Nov 2, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> The letter from Florida Blue arrived yesterday and my insurance premiums will have a 350% increase starting this January.  Affordable Care Act?  Thanks Barry!  Thanks Harry!  Thanks Nancy!  Thanks Democrats!
> 
> What the hell happened to my savings of $2,500 a year?


Clearly you don't make enough money to be voting Republican.

And who knows what to believe. You've been so anti hillary since you got here in 2012. Your first post is a Benghazi thread. Do you know how many Benghazis happened on bush and Reagan's watch?

So you are a partisan hack. I hope your premiums bankrupt your stupid broke ass.


----------



## sealybobo (Nov 2, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > frigidweirdo said:
> ...


Even my conservative German, Canadian and British friends love their countries socialized healthcare


----------



## Care4all (Nov 2, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...


Andy, I don't know why you have had to go from your employee health care plan to Obamacare on the exchange and can only presume you are between jobs?

Your employer paid a great deal of your health care insurance and Ocare does not contribute as much towards your policy it what it could be?

Whatever you do, please check out a Silver Plan, the govt will come in and help you with your deductibles and out of pocket expenses and some other things in ADDITION to the premium subsidy IF your income is low..

If you are healthy, and can afford to go for an annual check up with labs at least once a year out of your own pocket, and are not some Mountain Climber or race car driver that is prone to accidents, I would PASS on that useless bronze plan and pay the penalty, if you have to...but check out the penalty exemptions, cuz you may even be able to get out of that....depending on your circumstances.

As a citizen, I am willing to pay for you with my taxes if you end up in the Emergency Room.


----------



## Ravi (Nov 2, 2016)

Care4all said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...


If you look at his MemeIt post of healthcare.gov you will see the taxpayer is paying about half of his plan. He's being charged $124 and without the subsidy it would be $241.

I would be quite happy with $124 a month for coverage.


----------



## Care4all (Nov 2, 2016)

Ravi said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...


I would be happy too, IF IT WERE NOT that stupid Bronze Plan with the deductible in the thousands....  sure it will cover an annual and any labs but outside of that, it all comes out of his pocket....

NO ONE should buy in to one of those Bronze plans imho, NO ONE!  they shouldn't even exist as far as I am concerned, unless the payment was something like $40 a month!


----------



## Synthaholic (Nov 2, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > frigidweirdo said:
> ...


VA is overwhelmed with REMFs bringing their 5 year olds in for a skinned knee.  The VA was meant for injuries sustained on the battlefield, not a comprehensive free medical plan for every supply line, statesider and their entire family.


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## Synthaholic (Nov 2, 2016)

Ummm.....


http://www.indystar.com/story/news/politics/2015/06/11/obamacare-premiums-drop-indiana/71077884/


----------



## Weatherman2020 (Nov 2, 2016)

Synthaholic said:


> Ummm.....
> 
> 
> http://www.indystar.com/story/news/politics/2015/06/11/obamacare-premiums-drop-indiana/71077884/


The year is 2016, dufus


----------



## Weatherman2020 (Nov 2, 2016)

Synthaholic said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...


"The Continental Congress of 1776 encouraged enlistments during the American Revolutionary War by providing pensions for soldiers who were disabled. Direct medical and hospital care given to veterans in the early days of the U.S. was provided by the individual states and communities. In 1811, the first domiciliary and medical facility for veterans was authorized by the federal government, but not opened until 1834. *In the 19th century, the nation's veterans assistance program was expanded to include benefits and pensions not only for veterans, but also their widows and dependents*."


----------



## sealybobo (Nov 2, 2016)

Care4all said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...


Andy, are you a smoker?  Quit smoking.  The rates are much lower for healthy people.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Nov 2, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> The letter from Florida Blue arrived yesterday and my insurance premiums will have a 350% increase starting this January.  Affordable Care Act?  Thanks Barry!  Thanks Harry!  Thanks Nancy!  Thanks Democrats!
> 
> What the hell happened to my savings of $2,500 a year?



I don't believe you. 

Very few people who need to buy insurance on the ACA exchange do so without getting a subsidy. Those who qualify for the subsidy will get an increase in the subsidy that covers the bulk of the increase in premiums. 

If you are someone with an income that exceeds the limit for a subsidy....and yiu don't have insurance through an employer, the GREAT LIKLIHOOD is that you are paying less on the exchange for a better plan than you would have if the ACA were not passed. 

Tell us the whole story, please.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Nov 2, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> It looks like I'll have to go without insurance.  Unfortunately, I see no other option at this point.



I don't believe you either. The ACA did not cause insurance premiums to rise.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Nov 2, 2016)

MarathonMike said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > Oldstyle said:
> ...



It has always had problems and we have ALWAYS admitted this. Stop lying.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Nov 2, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> In the case of my previous doctor he made the decision to drop people on ObamaCare because he was getting paid less for services for them then he was for those with private insurance plans.  I couldn't "keep" my doctor because he wouldn't take my plan!  Do you really not know that people all over the country are having a hard time finding doctors that accept ObamaCare patients?



You are lying. We know it. It is sad.


----------



## Fenton Lum (Nov 2, 2016)

WillowTree said:


> Fenton Lum said:
> 
> 
> > WillowTree said:
> ...



We need to do whatever makes us globally competitive.  Dream?  Wild?  Other societies have figured this out, for less expense to society.  Clearly employers here are moving this expense off their books, and will continue to, they have been for a good while.  Flat tax?  Maybe, depends, we always need to fuck the unsubstantial people here, hard to imagine it wouldn't work out that way again, always has.  But sure, why not look at that.


----------



## Wyatt earp (Nov 2, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> > The letter from Florida Blue arrived yesterday and my insurance premiums will have a 350% increase starting this January.  Affordable Care Act?  Thanks Barry!  Thanks Harry!  Thanks Nancy!  Thanks Democrats!
> ...





*Clearly you don't make enough money to be voting Republican.*


WTF? A middle class worker like I making $28 bucks an hour don't make enough money to vote democrat and I have no desire to not to work so only one I can afford to vote for is republican.


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## Fenton Lum (Nov 2, 2016)

bear513 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Oldstyle said:
> ...



I haven't seen much in america this election cycle that indicates most of ya got enough sense to vote at all, regardless of income.  But please do, I want you to see this "change" you think the system will bring you this time.  Yet again.


----------



## Wyatt earp (Nov 2, 2016)

Fenton Lum said:


> bear513 said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...




What's your problem scum bucket still afraid to tell us where your from? 

Btw if you don't live in the United States you owe us tax payers billions of dollars to protect your ass.


.


Pay up.


----------



## Oldstyle (Nov 2, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> > The letter from Florida Blue arrived yesterday and my insurance premiums will have a 350% increase starting this January.  Affordable Care Act?  Thanks Barry!  Thanks Harry!  Thanks Nancy!  Thanks Democrats!
> ...



I'm a Middle Class American.  I used to have healthcare coverage that was affordable and I could see my long time doctor with that healthcare plan.  Then you progressives "fixed" healthcare with the Affordable Care Act and I now longer can see that doctor because he's not taking ObamaCare patients and my healthcare premiums will be going up 350% as of January.  My ass isn't broke yet but if you clowns get to run things for much longer...it probably WILL be!


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## frigidweirdo (Nov 2, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...



Yeah, a lot do, it's only the really rich who don't.


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## sealybobo (Nov 2, 2016)

bear513 said:


> Fenton Lum said:
> 
> 
> > bear513 said:
> ...


Or we could stop protecting the rest of the world. That doesn't benefit me


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## sealybobo (Nov 2, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Oldstyle said:
> ...


Look how much healthcare went up from 2000-2008. Yes healthcare needs to be fixed. We should have never let the insurance giants write it. Single payer is what we need.

Take out the profit motive


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## Wyatt earp (Nov 2, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> bear513 said:
> 
> 
> > Fenton Lum said:
> ...




Yea I know you don't give a crap about no one except yourself...


I did my civic duty last Saturday night..
Went to get money out of wells Fargo bank...

It was late and saw this black woman alone in her car and a creep standing outside...

I got out of my truck and look at this fuck head and looked at her..

I am like its cool, he walked away , she got out of her car and said thank you..

I told her you use the atm first I have your back..

She got her money thanked me again and I told her to have a great life..

She said the same thing to me
..



That's what real guys do...


Fuckhead


That's why we have a military to protect the entire world from fucking scum bags of the earth...


Do you get it yet?


.


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## sealybobo (Nov 2, 2016)

bear513 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > bear513 said:
> ...


Never let it be said you didn't do the least you could do.

That's why I love no one but myself and ain't a nigga crossed me and lived to tell. Death row bitch!


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## Oldstyle (Nov 2, 2016)

Faun said:


> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> > Fenton Lum said:
> ...



Changes you'll see to your plan in 2017

Your new premium
      * Your  2016 monthly premium is $120.61.
         This reflects a monthly premium of $743.61 minus 623.00 of financial help per month.
      *  Starting in January, your estimated monthly premium will be $401.58.


sealybobo said:


> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...



Oh, for the love of God!  The insurance giants didn't write the Affordable Care Act...that was written by Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid, voted into being by Democrats and signed by Barack Obama!  I'm sorry, Faun...but you guys OWN ObamaCare...lock stock and barrel!


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## sealybobo (Nov 2, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> Faun said:
> 
> 
> > Oldstyle said:
> ...


The insurance companies did write it. They mandated that everyone must buy they products and they have some time where they get to raise their rates.

We all know the aca needs to be fixed. Let's do it


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## Faun (Nov 2, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> Faun said:
> 
> 
> > Oldstyle said:
> ...


On top of being a bald-faced liar, you suck at math too. 120.61 to 401.58 is a 233% increase, not a 350% increase.

And you're still lying. Florida Blue increased their premiums by *19%*. Not 350%. Not 233%. *19%*.

Why Florida OKed higher 2017 premiums than health insurers sought

Do you ever stop lying, ya con tool?

Ever???


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## sealybobo (Nov 2, 2016)

Faun said:


> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> > Faun said:
> ...


You know what it probably is? He wants to be a PPO or an HMO instead of visa versa and it's a lot cheaper to do the one he doesn't want well too bad. If you have to go to a different doctor so what? I've had 100 doctors. I'm not married to any of them.


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## Faun (Nov 2, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> Faun said:
> 
> 
> > Oldstyle said:
> ...


No, it's not that. That putz is a serial liar. Can't tell you how many times I've caught him lying. Even now, he just makes up numbers which don't even equal a 350% increase as he falsely claimed. If he really is on Florida Blue as he claims, his premium is going up *19%*, just like everyone else on it.

Why Florida OKed higher 2017 premiums than health insurers sought


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## Oldstyle (Nov 2, 2016)

Faun said:


> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> > Faun said:
> ...



You provide "articles" saying how much my insurance premiums will be going up and I provide the actual increase...but I'm the liar?  Would you like to inform Florida Blue that I only have to PAY 19% because you have an article from last summer saying that's what the increase will be?  I'd really appreciate that, Faun!

Tell you what...you make that call and if you can't get them to take a 19% increase then how about you and Sealy pick up the rest of my bill?  Since I'm "lying" about it then it shouldn't be a problem for you two...right?


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## Faun (Nov 2, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> Faun said:
> 
> 
> > Oldstyle said:
> ...


Lying retard ... *your numbers didn't even add up* to a 350% increase. And Florida Blue premiums increased by *19%* -- *which was the max* they were allowed to go up.

Do you ever stop lying, ya con tool?

Ever??


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## Andylusion (Nov 2, 2016)

Ravi said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...



Who said I was comparing employer to an individual policy?

All three that I mentioned were private insurance policies.

If you've read my posts about my life, you know I rarely ever stay long at any job.   I constantly had to chance insurance over and over, and finally realize it was better to just have private insurance.... or at least it was better to have private insurance.

You used to be able to get basic coverage for a very low price until Obama Care screwed it all up.


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## Andylusion (Nov 3, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > frigidweirdo said:
> ...



No, you don't understand.   There are people in Canada, who waited 3 years to get needed surgery.    They didn't play around with it.  They flat out were told to wait, and they did.... and years...  YEARS went by before they got care.

One lady in her 40s needed knee surgery, couldn't walk until they got her the surgery.  Lost her job.  Lost her life.  Couldn't do anything.  In pain all the time.

Three years for the first knee, and she was had already waited one year at the time of the interview for the second knee.

And yes, people died waiting for things like cancer surgery, and MRIs, and CT Scans, in Canada.

Why do you think the public sued the government, and forced them to give them the option of private health care?   Because socialized health care sucks.  You die on waiting lists.

Which is exactly what happened with the VA.

Of course some people come through socialized health care and it works.  If all you need is a splint on a broken arm, Socialized care is great.... as long as you pay the 50% tax rate to fund it.

The problem is, you pay that tax rate, and then you end up needing private insurance anyway, like most Euro countries have, and even with that, you often end up having to go out of the country to get care.

Socialized care never works.


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## Fenton Lum (Nov 3, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...


 
It does elswhere, for less cost to society, and yours does not.  And it did not before the Heritage Foundation hatched "obamacare".  You have the most expensive health"care" system on the planet with pretty shitty outcomes relative to other systems in advanced industrialized nations.

You chose this, and you still choose this, you just said so, so stop your whining.


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## Ravi (Nov 3, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...


One of your comparative MemeIts listed the cost for an employee.


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## jillian (Nov 3, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> The letter from Florida Blue arrived yesterday and my insurance premiums will have a 350% increase starting this January.  Affordable Care Act?  Thanks Barry!  Thanks Harry!  Thanks Nancy!  Thanks Democrats!
> 
> What the hell happened to my savings of $2,500 a year?



*yawn*


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 3, 2016)

Fenton Lum said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > frigidweirdo said:
> ...


Hilarious how the left are sprinting away from responsibility of inventing and shoving thru Obamacare.
It's a dead corpse shackled to them.


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 3, 2016)

jillian said:


> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> > The letter from Florida Blue arrived yesterday and my insurance premiums will have a 350% increase starting this January.  Affordable Care Act?  Thanks Barry!  Thanks Harry!  Thanks Nancy!  Thanks Democrats!
> ...


Leftist compassion on display.


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## Synthaholic (Nov 3, 2016)

Weatherman2020 said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > Oldstyle said:
> ...


Wow, you are a whiny little bitch.


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## LoneLaugher (Nov 3, 2016)

Does anyone here know what Marco Rubio did to make insurance premiums go up? Anyone?


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## Bill Angel (Nov 3, 2016)

Quite a shock what's happening to  dental insurance rates. I have CareFirst BlueCross BlueShield BlueDental Preferred in Maryland. When I first got the insurance in 2015 the cost was $78.00 per calendar quarter. In 2016 the cost when up to $102 per calendar quarter. Now I'm informed that the cost in 2017 will be $138 per calendar quarter! The only claims I filed in 2016 were for two routine dental cleanings and exams.


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## bullwinkle (Nov 3, 2016)

Bill Angel said:


> Quite a shock what's happening to  dental insurance rates. I have CareFirst BlueCross BlueShield BlueDental Preferred in Maryland. When I first got the insurance in 2015 the cost was $78.00 per calendar quarter. In 2016 the cost when up to $102 per calendar quarter. Now I'm informed that the cost in 2017 will be $138 per calendar quarter! The only claims I filed in 2016 were for two routine dental cleanings and exams.


I quit BCBS in 06 because they raised my rates by 32% beginning 07 from $1700 yr to $2250 yr for COB.


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## Weatherman2020 (Nov 3, 2016)

Synthaholic said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...


Did you learn that rebuttal on the playground today during recess?


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## bullwinkle (Nov 3, 2016)

Weatherman2020 said:


> Fenton Lum said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...


Not me, weather.  I know Obamacare needs tweaks, but I also remember being at the mercy of the insurers, and I do not want to go back to that.


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## Vandalshandle (Nov 3, 2016)

Anyone who does not like the ACA rates is welcome to come back to coverage under private insurance plans in the USA...if they are healthy enough to be accepted.

That being the case, I guess that I don't understand just what the hell folks are whining about.


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## Sun Devil 92 (Nov 3, 2016)

jillian said:


> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> > The letter from Florida Blue arrived yesterday and my insurance premiums will have a 350% increase starting this January.  Affordable Care Act?  Thanks Barry!  Thanks Harry!  Thanks Nancy!  Thanks Democrats!
> ...



So, you don't have an answer...go it.


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## Sun Devil 92 (Nov 3, 2016)

Vandalshandle said:


> Anyone who does not like the ACA rates is welcome to come back to coverage under private insurance plans in the USA...if they are healthy enough to be accepted.
> 
> That being the case, I guess that I don't understand just what the hell folks are whining about.



That is a legitimate question.

The first answer might be the stupid burden the law placed on policies that increased their costs by 4 fold.

If that had not happened, I think the ACA would have seemed less objectionable.


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## Vandalshandle (Nov 3, 2016)

Sun Devil 92 said:


> Vandalshandle said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone who does not like the ACA rates is welcome to come back to coverage under private insurance plans in the USA...if they are healthy enough to be accepted.
> ...



Well, so some insurer's are finding that ACA costs them money, and so they stop participating in ACA, in which case, ACA does NOT cost them money, and you are saying that they are raising their prices for traditional insurance because ACA is costing them money?


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## GHook93 (Nov 4, 2016)

Fenton Lum said:


> Yeah, my corporate insurance never goes up.



Then you are full of shit!

I got slammed today in annual enrollment


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## Fenton Lum (Nov 4, 2016)

Weatherman2020 said:


> Fenton Lum said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...


 
No one in america is ever responsible for anything, look around.


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## Fenton Lum (Nov 4, 2016)

GHook93 said:


> Fenton Lum said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, my corporate insurance never goes up.
> ...


 
See "sarcasm", of course it does, every fucking year, and there was only one "choice" this year.


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## Sun Devil 92 (Nov 4, 2016)

Vandalshandle said:


> Sun Devil 92 said:
> 
> 
> > Vandalshandle said:
> ...



What I am saying is that the law created "minimums" which jacked up the price of some insurance policies.

The debate over the minimums is a different conversation...but this is the reason you can't find catastrophic plans for the price they used to be available at.


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## Andylusion (Nov 5, 2016)

Care4all said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...



The silver plans are horribly expensive.  I'm simply not going to pay for them.   It doesn't matter if the government will help cover deductibles, when I can't afford the premium to begin with.  The lowest priced silver plan is over $200.   I'll be lucky if I break $18,000 for this year, and you want me to cough up $200 a month?

And more importantly, before ObamaCare screwed up the entire market, I had cheaper insurance, that covered what I wanted.

Now, thanks to this idiocy, I can't afford it.  

So yeah, I'll just pay the penalty, and the tax payers that screwed up the market with this socialist crap, can pay 100% of my bills instead.


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## Andylusion (Nov 5, 2016)

dfens said:


> The food industry pumps people full of unhealthy foods.  The tobacco industry pumps them full of tobacco.  The alcohol industry pumps them full of alcohol.  The "illegal" drug industry pumps them full of the worst addictive substances.  The pharmaceutical industry pumps them full of drugs.  Then when they get sick, the hospital industry takes people in and charges outrageously for what should be simple procedures.
> 
> And who pays?  Why, you do!  The average, working American sucker!
> 
> How does it feel?



None of what you just said is true.   People make choices.  People choose to smoke.  I never have.  People choose to drink.  I never have.   People choose to do drugs.  I never have.

Am I a super human?  Do I have magical abilities to resist the super powers of all these industries?

Or maybe that's more American victimization wussy wimp blame shifting mentality.   Grow up.

Second, as I have said numerous times, and will continue to say, it's the government, not the hospitals, that are driving up costs.  

See when you setup a system where people have to pay for their own choices, like when they drink alcohol until they have health problems, and only they themselves have to pay that price of treatment.... people will be wiser in the choices they make.

But government just now, did exactly the opposite.  For example banning the pre-existing condition clause.    Well if someone drinks alcohol until they have a health issue, and then applies for coverage at the insurance company you have your policy with.....  guess who pays for their treatments?  You do.

Do this is the fault of socialism, not blaw blaw blaw industry and hospitals.   The government did this with socialist regulations.


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## Andylusion (Nov 5, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> > The letter from Florida Blue arrived yesterday and my insurance premiums will have a 350% increase starting this January.  Affordable Care Act?  Thanks Barry!  Thanks Harry!  Thanks Nancy!  Thanks Democrats!
> ...



So let me get this straight.   The democrats screw us over... but in your arrogant opinion, we don't make enough money to vote republican?    Pretty good system you got there.   Screw over the working people until their poor, and then say they are too poor to vote republican.

Brilliant.


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## Andylusion (Nov 5, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...



No.  Never smoked.  Never had an alcoholic drink.  Never had an illegal drug.


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## Andylusion (Nov 5, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> > Faun said:
> ...



Yeah, it needs flat out repealed.  Unfortunately, I doubt you people will allow that to happen.  You'll keep screwing up the system until we nationalize it, and people die on waiting lists like Canada.


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## frigidweirdo (Nov 5, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...



You're assuming insurance companies wouldn't have increased prices to that much anyway, and are just blaming Obamacare because of their own reasons. 

Capitalism in healthcare is the problem here. Of that $200 a month, $56 alone goes to the health insurance company. That's before you've paid for the hospital profits, the pharma company profits, the corruption (estimated to be 3% of US GDP, or at least 6% of what you're paying, so another $12 on top of your $56).

I'd estimate that at least 50% of what you're spending on healthcare just ends up in someone's pocket for doing something that shouldn't be done for profit.


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## Andylusion (Nov 5, 2016)

Ravi said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...



So I looked up the screen shot, and you are correct it does say that.  I have absolutely not idea why.   It's not an employee plan.  I've never had an employee plan with Aetna.   Here's another screen shot of the same plan, but this time it's my bill pay screen.






Type Individual List Bill.    Same Premium $80.   Again, I have no clue why the other screen says "employee".  And if I click on "details", the other screen says employee.   But it simply isn't.  I got this policy through the health exchange last year.   Plan effective date is 1/1/16.


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## Andylusion (Nov 5, 2016)

frigidweirdo said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...



Actually I'm not assuming much.   In the 1990s, my premium was about $50 a month.   In 2006, I got an insurance policy for just $67 a month.

You are suggesting that insurance premiums went from $67 in 2006, to $250 today just from the market?   No, regulations caused that.

Second, without profit, none of the entire health care system would exist.   A hospital without profit, closes and helps no one.   Without profit doctors refuse to work.  Without profit medical companies close and leave the market.   Without profit, insurance doesn't exist.

Name one system, anywhere on this planet, that exists without profit?   Greece?   Closed hospitals, no drugs, patients stacked on beds like a warehouse?




20 patients in a room designed for 3.   See all the help they are getting?  Nope? Me neither.  But at least the hospital isn't profiting.




Well look what we found!  All the help those patients were not getting?  It's right here!  They are striking!   Apparently doctors want to profit from their work.     Darn greedy capitalists in that socialist system.

Point being, profit is what makes the world go around.  Always has been, even in soviet Russia, and Communist China.    And it always will be.

If you think you are ever going to get drugs without profit.... check out Cuba:





No profit here... no drugs for anyone to use either... but at least no profit.  Contrary to the propaganda claim, many drugs are available in Cuba to tourists who pay profitable prices to Cuba's government.   But to the average Cuban who is paid in pesos, drugs are almost non-existent.   I heard that some can get two pills of Aspirin if they have a voucher, and only if the pills are available.

You know why France only has access to drugs that are 5 years old, and never uses the newest drugs?  Because the older ones are cheaper, and come under the price cap.   The older ones are cheaper, but they still make a profit.

And by the way, when the French government on rare occasion cuts prices on a drug, and makes it unprofitable... the drug companies stop selling it.

Nothing happens without profit.  Nothing.  You will never create a system, where that isn't the case.   If you do, then you won't have a system anymore.  I'll have a death trap.


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## Andylusion (Nov 5, 2016)

Vandalshandle said:


> Anyone who does not like the ACA rates is welcome to come back to coverage under private insurance plans in the USA...if they are healthy enough to be accepted.
> 
> That being the case, I guess that I don't understand just what the hell folks are whining about.



We can't.    That's what we are complaining about.   The ACA drastically increased the minimum requirements for health insurance.

What that did was eliminate all the cheaper plans.   I can't get a $67 insurance policy that covers just what I need anymore.  Those plans don't exist.

Outside of the ACA, the cheapest priced insurance is now $250 to $300 a month.

I can not just go back to the private market.  The ACA wiped out the private market.   And I can't afford what is on the ACA.

So thanks to you people.... no insurance at all.   Now you get to pay 100% of my health care needs.   Serves you morons right.


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## sealybobo (Nov 5, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Oldstyle said:
> ...


Canada laughs at you. Especially how much you are paying


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## sealybobo (Nov 5, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> Vandalshandle said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone who does not like the ACA rates is welcome to come back to coverage under private insurance plans in the USA...if they are healthy enough to be accepted.
> ...


We pay a little more so losers like you can have insurance.

Plus you cost us more when you didn't have insurance.

We get it. It's too expensive. We need single payer, player


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## Andylusion (Nov 5, 2016)

Vandalshandle said:


> Sun Devil 92 said:
> 
> 
> > Vandalshandle said:
> ...



That's not true.

They are leaving the health care market place.   That's true.

But all plans, of all types are affected by the ACA whether they are part of the market place or not.

For example, the pre-existing condition clauses, force insurance companies to cover people who refused to buy insurance until they got cancer.   Well of course that drives up costs on the company, which drives up costs on the premium payers (us), whether the insurance company was part of the 'market place" or not.

Another example would be the requirements on what all policies must cover.   For example alcoholism treatment.    Alcoholism treatment is horribly expensive, because people go forever, and then they have an extremely high relapse rate.

That's massively expensive on the company, which is passed on to the premium payers (you and me), whether they are part of the health exchange market place or not.

The ACA screwed over the entire health care market universally.  No one is exempt.


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## Andylusion (Nov 5, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...



Which is why over a hundred thousand Canadians came to the US and paid for health care out of pocket, even after paying the massive taxes to fund their system they came here to escape.

Yeah... they are laughing at us.  That's true.  They are laughing that we are so dumb, we're adopting the system they came here to escape.


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## Andylusion (Nov 5, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Vandalshandle said:
> ...



I had insurance before that cost you zero.

Now you are paying a ton more, that forced me to pay more for insurance.

Soon you'll pay a massive amount more, so I can have no insurance.

I did my part.  I paid for my bills when you allowed me the chance.   Now you screwed the system so bad, that you'll pay all my bills.

Who is the loser here?   You are the one that screwed yourself over.  Not me.  I didn't vote for this.  You did.


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## Ravi (Nov 5, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...


That also appears to be a policy purchased through an employer, where you are reimbursed tax free for your coverage (socialism omfg!).

Here's how that works:

How List-Billing Works with HRAs

So your employer either stopped offering this program or you are no longer with the same employer. Therefore your comparison is invalid.


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## frigidweirdo (Nov 5, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...




Well I can't comment on your premiums, there are too many variables to suggest that there wasn't an increase or not. On average premiums have gone up every year, year on year.

Without profit the health industry would exist. It exists in the UK. It's that simple. People in the UK have never had to have pay for profit, except on the lower profit they pay for drugs and things than people in the US pay.

The UK spends half what the US spends. If the UK spent 75% of what the US spends, it would have an excellent service. Right now the Tories are trying to get a US system so they can benefit from it, it's ideology, and they're destroying what exists.

Greece is like it is because the country has gone through an economic DISASTER, to compare the US with Greece isn't fair. The UK system on the other hand is good. Cuba is even worse, it doesn't work because the country has suffered from a ridiculous US embargo, it's the EMBARGO, not the system that doesn't work. 

Also there might be certain areas with profit, but we're talking the MASSIVE profits made for no reason here. Like the 28% of healthcare spending that goes on insurance companies that are totally unnecessary. Or massive profits for pharma companies which make huge profits on the back of US govt research, and then spend more money lobbying the govt to not pay taxes, so they don't pay for the funding they benefit from massively.


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## Sun Devil 92 (Nov 5, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...



You bet they are:


----------



## Eloy (Nov 5, 2016)

With such premium increases, I am guessing the so-called Affordable Care Act must involve private capitalist insurance companies which care only about making big profits on the backs of ordinary people. If so, the Act needs to be repealed and replaced with proper socialized medical care.


----------



## bullwinkle (Nov 5, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> dfens said:
> 
> 
> > The food industry pumps people full of unhealthy foods.  The tobacco industry pumps them full of tobacco.  The alcohol industry pumps them full of alcohol.  The "illegal" drug industry pumps them full of the worst addictive substances.  The pharmaceutical industry pumps them full of drugs.  Then when they get sick, the hospital industry takes people in and charges outrageously for what should be simple procedures.
> ...





Andylusion said:


> But government just now, did exactly the opposite. For example banning the pre-existing condition clause. Well if someone drinks alcohol until they have a health issue, and then applies for coverage at the insurance company you have your policy with..... guess who pays for their treatments? You do.


  Andy, your point is well taken, but it falls short as an absolute.  You are correct that most of us are responsible for making messes of our lives.  Me, I smoked myself into mild emphysema before I quit 16 years ago.  But what about the kid born with a leaky heart valve, or weak lungs?  I worked with a woman whose husband got thrown out of an insurance plan years ago over a weak diseased heart.  The plan was HealthPlus, an HMO.  And I held her hand as she cried over her failed efforts to enroll him in another plan..any other plan.  There were no takers.  He died, of course.  I know this is just another anecdotal story.  And maybe he should have set aside those human feelings of wanting home and family when he was so sub-healthy all his life.  Maybe he should have stayed on the outside looking in, but he was weak.  And maybe the old plan of denial by insurers only hastened his inevitable death.  Objectively, maybe denial of coverage for the incurable is logical.  But I am more of a subjective person, and I praise the Act that would have added some time to this man's life, and some dignity, and maybe even saved for his survivors the homestead they lost.  Maybe he was destined to die young, but to a loved one, time matters.  5, 10 more minutes is a gift.  And if I seem too 'touchy-feely' I apologize.  I do not participate in the ACA, and my insurance COB is higher than yours on an income about the same as yours.  And I will gladly share my pittance to ease the lives of others.


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## Vandalshandle (Nov 5, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> Vandalshandle said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone who does not like the ACA rates is welcome to come back to coverage under private insurance plans in the USA...if they are healthy enough to be accepted.
> ...



_Poor baby......_


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## Vandalshandle (Nov 5, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> Vandalshandle said:
> 
> 
> > Sun Devil 92 said:
> ...



_life is *so* unfair....._


----------



## Fenton Lum (Nov 5, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Oldstyle said:
> ...



I just don't see how you and anyone who looks at things another way  are going to be able to have a rational reality based conversation, you're simply far too emotional, reactionary, angry, and all you’re really looking for is someone to blame.  Lucky for you, you have “you people” for that.  Have a nice weekend.


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## Fenton Lum (Nov 5, 2016)

sealybobo said:


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As well they should, big american pharma makes up the difference on Canadian negotiated prescription pricing by tacking that "loss" onto the american people.


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## Andylusion (Nov 5, 2016)

Ravi said:


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Actually, the comparison is still valid regardless of this.

Whether the policy is one way, or the other way, or whichever way....   Both policies were through the Health Insurance market place.

It doesn't matter if the employer is paying for a portion of it or not.   The premium to me is higher.

These were the only options I was giving.   That $80 policy, was the only policy option I had.   The $125 policy is the only option I have.

Even if you can't compare the two on their own merits, when *YOU* set me up so that I only have an Apple to buy before, and only have an Orange to buy now, then I have to compare Apple's and Orange's.

You did this, not me.   You told me that I could get affordable Health Care through the insurance market place.   So I went last year, the price was high.   I went this year and the price is higher.

Now your telling me, I can't complain because the two insurance policies are not comparable?  Whose fault is that?  Yours.  You setup this BS system.

So typical of left-wingers.  Setup a system that fails people, and then blame the victims for their system failing.


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## Andylusion (Nov 5, 2016)

Vandalshandle said:


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Life is more fair than leftwing policies.   I'm not being screwed over by life on this.  I'm being screwed over by Obama loving left-wing socialists.   I'm sure the Cuban government elites are telling their impoverished people "life is unfair".  Same with Greece, and Venezuela, and everywhere else you people ruin the lives of the public.


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## Ravi (Nov 5, 2016)

Andylusion said:


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I don't think they were through the market place. You may believe it, but you are wrong.


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## Andylusion (Nov 5, 2016)

Vandalshandle said:


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Typical left-winger.   Always talking about how they stand up for the poor and lower-class.  The moment you people meet the lower-class, your true selves are revealed, with mocking and insults.

Hypocrites.  All of you.  A non-hypocritical leftist, is like a dodo bird...


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## Andylusion (Nov 5, 2016)

Ravi said:


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Ok....   So why did I have to find the policy on Healthcare.gov, and why do I have to log into healthcare.gov to see the policy?  And why is healthcare.gov sending me notification that my policy no longer is available?


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## Andylusion (Nov 5, 2016)

Sun Devil 92 said:


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It's universal that the child-leftwing beliefs can be summed up by "the grass is always greener elsewhere".

When the WHO published their health care ranking that said France had the best health care in the world, it was amazing how many French rolled their eyes and laughed.

I had the same experience when I went on a long trip through Europe.  I got back to the US, and all these lefties were talking about how great and wonderful Europe was.   Everything they claimed about Europe, didn't match what I experienced living in Europe.  Tiny little homes.  Itty bitty junk cars that barely fit 2 people.   People riding scooters half the size of a US Moped.   No one had AC, not because it wasn't hot, but because they couldn't afford it.   People hanging laundry to dry inside their homes, smaller than a college apartment, because no one could afford a clothes drier.

In the exact same way, everyone in the US says Canadian health care is fantastic.  And they all assume Canadians love their health care system, until they actually meet Canadians.... and then shockingly, Canadians don't think their health care system is so great, especially when a hundred thousand Canadians seek treatment outside their country.   Apparently 'free' isn't so wonderful.


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## Vandalshandle (Nov 5, 2016)

Andylusion said:


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Have some Velveeta with that Night Train whine....


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## Sun Devil 92 (Nov 5, 2016)

Vandalshandle said:


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I would agree.

The sympathy is just overwhelming.

Now, if you cowtowed their point of view, my guess is that they would be very comforting.


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## Andylusion (Nov 5, 2016)

Vandalshandle said:


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Yeah, I know.  You people hate the lower and middle class.  You wouldn't care if we all died.   Typical leftist.  More people killed by left-wing policies than all the modern wars combined.


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## Vandalshandle (Nov 5, 2016)

Sun Devil 92 said:


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Ok. I surrender. go ahead and repeal ACA. After all, that way I could resume my 50 year career as VP of life and health insurance underwriting. My job was to deny coverage to anyone I deemed to be a poor risk. Dying of congestive heart failure, for want of an open heart surgery? Tough shit, Here is a card. It has the number of an undertaker friend of mine. Give it to your wife.


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## sealybobo (Nov 5, 2016)

Andylusion said:


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No Canadian or European wants our healthcare.


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## Vandalshandle (Nov 5, 2016)

sealybobo said:


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..and not one single industrialize nation with universal health care has ever reversed direction and tried to switch to a system like ours.


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## sealybobo (Nov 5, 2016)

Vandalshandle said:


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And why not if free market capitalism is such a great system of healthcare dont they switch?

How many of us would want socialized healthcare if our employers weren't paying for it?

And isn't that another reasons companies go overseas? There they don't have the high cost of healthcare.


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## MaryL (Nov 5, 2016)

Oldstyle said:


> The letter from Florida Blue arrived yesterday and my insurance premiums will have a 350% increase starting this January.  Affordable Care Act?  Thanks Barry!  Thanks Harry!  Thanks Nancy!  Thanks Democrats!
> 
> What the hell happened to my savings of $2,500 a year?


I wonder.  HOW does Obama think this is making things better? How? We help pay the medical bills for  older poor unhealthy folks  don't  work   and penalize healthy younger workers. This isn't working.


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## Andylusion (Nov 5, 2016)

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That's not true.  Canada.   The public in Canada sued their own government, to demand a free-market capitalist based alternative. 

Originally Canada was 100% socialist.   There was no such thing as a private clinic, or private doctor. It was illegal to pay for better health care.

The citizens fed up with multi-year waiting lists, and being forced to go to the US for health care....  sued their government to eliminate the laws against private health care.

Today, there is private health insurance.  Private health care clinics.  Private doctor practices.  Even some private hospitals.

Canada has completely reversed course.   Now they haven't privatized the health care system completely, no.

And the US has had socialized health care for decades.   That's where most of our health care problems were.   That's also where most of Canada's health care problems still are.

But what you said is completely false.

Germany is another example.   Nearly the entire population has private health insurance, and uses private health care clinics.


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## Vandalshandle (Nov 5, 2016)

Andylusion said:


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Nope, Andy.

Nope, nope, nope.


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## Andylusion (Nov 5, 2016)

sealybobo said:


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Also not true.   Companies have left France in droves, because taxes were so high, they couldn't compete, and left the country.

Someone has to pay the bill, whether they do so through insurance premiums, or though taxation.

That said, I don't know any company that has moved out of the US because of the "high cost of health care".

That's largely a myth made up by socialist health care promoters.


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## Andylusion (Nov 5, 2016)

Vandalshandle said:


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Yup Vandy.

Yup yup yup.


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## Andylusion (Nov 5, 2016)

Eloy said:


> With such premium increases, I am guessing the so-called Affordable Care Act must involve private capitalist insurance companies which care only about making big profits on the backs of ordinary people. If so, the Act needs to be repealed and replaced with proper socialized medical care.



Yeah, that way we can die on waiting lists like Canada, UK, France.... that's if we're luck enough to have a waiting list to get onto.     Cuba, Venezuela, and Greece, and all the other socialized systems that went broke, you don't even have a list to get on.

Apparently you missed how amazing the VA system is.


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## Andylusion (Nov 5, 2016)

bullwinkle said:


> Andylusion said:
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Now here is my question.....

All those people you listed that supposedly couldn't get health insurance:

How do you claim allowing unlimited no pre-existing condition clause insurance, to all those people who paid zero into a policy, but now get total coverage by the insurance company....

How is that going to lower my premiums as you promise?

You don't see the problem here?    You are demanding that insurance companies cover everyone.   But insurance companies don't have even a penny that doesn't come from.... us... the premium payers.    Unless it's subsidized which comes from.... us.... the tax payers.

So no matter which way you play this, demanding the insurance companies cover everyone, means that you are demanding our premiums go up, which is what we're seeing.

Now if you still think that's great.... fine.   But at least admit you want to jack up the cost of insurance on the public.   Be truthful and honest about it.

Don't play this game where "we can have unlimited insurance for 10¢ a month!" it's never going to happen.  You can't have the insurance companies cover more people, and cover more treatments, and cover more medications, and yet charge lower prices.  The "affordable" in the "affordable care act" is a lie.  At least admit it.


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## Andylusion (Nov 5, 2016)

sealybobo said:


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Which is odd, since roughly 1/4th of all medical tourism into the US for care, comes from Canada and Europe according to the Philadelphia International Medicine.   PIM, is a company that specializes in finding international patients with care providers around the world.

That said, the US health care system is expensive, and we've covered some of the reasons why.   Like cost shifting from Medicare to private patients, which drives up costs.

So UK patients and European patients, typically go to India, Brazil, Singapore, and other medical tourism hot spots over the US.

Here's the kicker.   All of those places have Socialized gov-care in those countires too.  Do you see those patients going to those gov-run-hospitals?  No.  They go to private pay-for-service Capitalist profit-driven hospitals in Singapore, in India, in Brazil.

Our US system is a hybrid socialized system.  That's why it has the problems it has.

Over there, they have completely 100% free-market hospitals.  That's where the Brits, and the French, and the Europeans go to.

Capitalism is always the better system.  Always.  No exception.


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## Vandalshandle (Nov 5, 2016)

Andylusion said:


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Ford has been paying more for health care, per car produced, than for steel, since 1977, which is why there is a trainload of new Fords coming up by my house in the Santa Cruz River Valley from Nogales, Mexico every other night.


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## Eloy (Nov 5, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> Eloy said:
> 
> 
> > With such premium increases, I am guessing the so-called Affordable Care Act must involve private capitalist insurance companies which care only about making big profits on the backs of ordinary people. If so, the Act needs to be repealed and replaced with proper socialized medical care.
> ...


You promote a system where an illness can financially wipe-out an ordinary family. "The U.S. health-care system is expensive, unfair, dangerous, corrupt and inefficient."
Health-care system is corrupt, unfair, doctor says


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## Vandalshandle (Nov 5, 2016)

Andy, if you weren't so ill informed on health insurance, it would not be so frustrating to see such blatant misinformation posted. Having spent my entire career in middle and upper management of health insurance companies and HMO's, i spot republican talking point BS quickly. One does not spend 55 years running health insurance companies without getting a pretty clear picture of what was happening in this country. Major employers were on the verge of killing health insurance companies because they were saddled with the cost of employee health insurance, which is now about $1,200 per month, with dependent coverage, triple that. Major companies, like Disney, and Microsoft, and GM bypassed insurance company risk charges, and went self insured, to save money. They just hired us to pay the claims with their checkbooks. That wasn't enough, so they started moving assembly plants and manufacturing plants to places like Mexico, where they don't have to pay for health insurance. Chrysler has already announced that they are going to shut down their last US plant in a year or two. The next step was to cut back on paying 100% of employee costs, down to 50% of employee cost. Next, they are going to stop contributing to employee health plans entirely. Look for employee group health plans to be dead within one more decade. From there on out, if you don't have some sort of government controlled health insurance, all policies will be individual policies, which, unlike employer group policies, require evidence of good health from every single applicant.

Good luck with that,.


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## Andylusion (Nov 5, 2016)

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The reason for this is the Unions.   In fact, the last major Union contract directly allowed all three domestics to move production to Mexico, as a requirement for them signing the contract.

Detroit-to-Mexico shift predicted after auto union's big victory

Unions always drive out jobs.

If you need proof of this... all you have to do is look at the foreign non-union car companies.

500,000th Corolla Speeds Off the Line at Toyota Mississippi | Toyota

Toyota's Corolla plant, opened in 2011, was built in Mississippi.

Honda's Accord and NSX is built in Ohio starting 2014, and they opened another in Indiana in 2008.

List of Honda assembly plants - Wikipedia

VW Chattanooga opened in 2011 making Passat.

http://www.autonews.com/article/20160307/OEM01/303079996/largest-bmw-plant-will-expand-this-year

BMW announced plans to expand their South Carolina plant, this after already being the largest manufacturing plant they own, and already increasing capacity and jobs by 1,200 since 2012.

Hyundai Expected to Build Genesis Models in Alabama

Hyundai expects to either drastically expand it's current Alabama facility, or build a whole new facility at the same location.    This is to start building two new models in the US.

... Now what's my point?

All the foreign non-unionized companies are expanding into the US.  Only the domestic Unionized companies are cutting back and laying off, and moving production out of the country.

That isn't to say most of those companies also have Mexico or other international plants.  Many do.  But they are still growing, expanding and creating more jobs and wealth in the US, while GM and Ford, and Chrysler, are all cutting back.

The problem isn't healthcare, unless you think the foreign companies have magic health care abilities that exempt them.

The problem is Unions.   The only thing Unions do with any consistency, is destroy the jobs of their members.


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## Andylusion (Nov 5, 2016)

Vandalshandle said:


> Andy, if you weren't so ill informed on health insurance, it would not be so frustrating to see such blatant misinformation posted. Having spent my entire career in middle and upper management of health insurance companies and HMO's, i spot republican talking point BS quickly. One does not spend 55 years running health insurance companies without getting a pretty clear picture of what was happening in this country. Major employers were on the verge of killing health insurance companies because they were saddled with the cost of employee health insurance, which is now about $1,200 per month, with dependent coverage, triple that. Major companies, like Disney, and Microsoft, and GM bypassed insurance company risk charges, and went self insured, to save money. They just hired us to pay the claims with their checkbooks. That wasn't enough, so they started moving assembly plants and manufacturing plants to places like Mexico, where they don't have to pay for health insurance. Chrysler has already announced that they are going to shut down their last US plant in a year or two. The next step was to cut back on paying 100% of employee costs, down to 50% of employee cost. Next, they are going to stop contributing to employee health plans entirely. Look for employee group health plans to be dead within one more decade. From there on out, if you don't have some sort of government controlled health insurance, all policies will be individual policies, which, unlike employer group policies, require evidence of good health from every single applicant.
> 
> Good luck with that,.



Nothing you said, changed anything I said.

Are you going to address the fact that all these non-unionized companies are building manufacturing plants in the US?   Or does being foreign magically make health care costs low?  Same employees.  Same US citizens.  Same US health care system.

In fact, your own post makes my point.  If the entire problem was the evil capitalist health insurance companies... then why didn't it fix the problem when they self insured?

Because that's not the problem.

The problem is government programs and regulations have driven up the cost of health care.    The pathetic thing is, you look at that, and think jacking up more regulations and government programs, is the solution.   It's not.


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## Andylusion (Nov 5, 2016)

Eloy said:


> Andylusion said:
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I'd rather be financially wiped out, than dead.   You have a system that heals me, I can keep earning money.  I can earn back what I lost.

Dead people can't.   Saving money, and dying, isn't a good trade off.


You tell this guy with a brain tumor, that it wasn't worth it to mortgage his home to get surgery, instead of waiting years with a lethal tumor in Canada.

Instead he paid the cash, and got healed.  He can earn back the money he lost.   Can't do that while having seizures for years, and hoping he doesn't die waiting.

That's where you people are so terrible.  This is why every socialized system ruins the lives of the people.  You would rather have him die.... than lose his house.   What good is a house when you are dead?


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## Vandalshandle (Nov 5, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> Vandalshandle said:
> 
> 
> > Andy, if you weren't so ill informed on health insurance, it would not be so frustrating to see such blatant misinformation posted. Having spent my entire career in middle and upper management of health insurance companies and HMO's, i spot republican talking point BS quickly. One does not spend 55 years running health insurance companies without getting a pretty clear picture of what was happening in this country. Major employers were on the verge of killing health insurance companies because they were saddled with the cost of employee health insurance, which is now about $1,200 per month, with dependent coverage, triple that. Major companies, like Disney, and Microsoft, and GM bypassed insurance company risk charges, and went self insured, to save money. They just hired us to pay the claims with their checkbooks. That wasn't enough, so they started moving assembly plants and manufacturing plants to places like Mexico, where they don't have to pay for health insurance. Chrysler has already announced that they are going to shut down their last US plant in a year or two. The next step was to cut back on paying 100% of employee costs, down to 50% of employee cost. Next, they are going to stop contributing to employee health plans entirely. Look for employee group health plans to be dead within one more decade. From there on out, if you don't have some sort of government controlled health insurance, all policies will be individual policies, which, unlike employer group policies, require evidence of good health from every single applicant.
> ...



Ok, so, if you want to believe that the problem is unions, go ahead. I have no dog in that fight. But, what do you think the unions demand first from employers at contract negotiation time? They demand that employer swallow the employee health insurance cost. Take a company with 30,000 employees at $1,200 per employee per month health premiums. That comes to $446,400,000 per year (not including dependent premium costs, which would triple this figure). That translates into $446 million dollars per year that they do NOT incur in Mexico, because there is no such thing as employer paid health insurance there. As a stockholder, I would _demand _that they move assembly plants to Mexico.


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## EvilCat Breath (Nov 6, 2016)

Vandalshandle said:


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China is transitioning into private insurance.

The rise of private health insurance in China


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## sealybobo (Nov 6, 2016)

Andylusion said:


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When you have money sure. Do you?


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## sealybobo (Nov 6, 2016)

Andylusion said:


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Im so sick of Americans cons lying and exxagerating other countries healthcare problems.

Fact is for a broke ass like Andy socialized medicine is the only thing he can afford


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## Sun Devil 92 (Nov 6, 2016)

Vandalshandle said:


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Yep, let's default to the meme that is total crap.

1. Thanks for admitting you worked 50 years in the bloodsucker industry.
2.  Now, tell us when you finally woke up.
3.  Repealing the ACA isn't going to hurt any more than it will help.
4.  To say there isn't an issue with insurance delivery is stupid.
5.  It's just as stupid to say the ACA helps the issue.
6.  Did you give these kind of silly responses when you were a VP ?  If so, I suspect your company went under.


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## Sun Devil 92 (Nov 6, 2016)

sealybobo said:


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Where did he exaggerate ?

But, you point is true.  In the end, people with big bills need help.

Our system isn't that good when it comes to spending.

The ACA has not helped that at all.


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## Sun Devil 92 (Nov 6, 2016)

sealybobo said:


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That's not true.  There are many I know who like our system.


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## sealybobo (Nov 6, 2016)

Sun Devil 92 said:


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Not so many I see their country privatizing.

I know many Germans and Brits who love how their socialized system took care of their parents.

My one British friend said he wouldn't have been able to start his business if he had to worry about paying for healthcare.


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## Sun Devil 92 (Nov 6, 2016)

sealybobo said:


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You said "No", which is a gross overgeneralization.

I think the European systems have a great deal to offer.  But you'll never get anyone to agree to discuss the subject (who don't agree already) because of the toxic political environement.

Our leaders don't care about us (and neither Trump or Hillary are going to be any different).

I have Brit friend who indicated his daughter has big issues and the NHS was worthless (months upon months of waiting because she wasn't dying right then).  Does that make the NHS bad...not in my book.

He indicated that a colleague of our  in the states had a son with similar issues and they got taken care of quickly (employer paid insurance).  Does that make that system wonderful....?  No.  

It says we have a great deal of work to do.

So do the Brits.


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## Sun Devil 92 (Nov 6, 2016)

Vandalshandle said:


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Uh, do you mean health insurance ?

And  that isn't the only reason that train runs.  Not by a long shot.

But the initial statistic is complelling.

There is a huge amount of retirement liability built into those cars too.


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## Vandalshandle (Nov 6, 2016)

Sun Devil 92 said:


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Throughout most of my working career, I was a republican, and didn't give a rat's ass what happened to people who lost their insurance because they lost their job, and then found themselves unemployable, and uninsurable, due to health issues.


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## Vandalshandle (Nov 6, 2016)

Sun Devil 92 said:


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Ford has not insured their employees since the early 1980's. They self fund their employees' health coverage.


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## Eloy (Nov 6, 2016)

Andylusion said:


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Before the Affordable Care Act, poor Americans did die from treatable illnesses.
I Watched My Patients Die of Treatable Diseases Because They Were Poor


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## Sun Devil 92 (Nov 6, 2016)

Vandalshandle said:


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You didn't give a rat's ass because you were a republican ?  Are you saying that your compassion was based on your political affiliation.

Or are you saying that you suddenly developed compassion (after 50 years of drawing pretty good paycheck screwing people over) and  then changed affiliations.

Either way, you don't sound like much of a human being to me.

I am a conservative and, like many of my fellow conservatives, have been watching people get hurt by the system since 1990.  When Hillarycare was attempted, I didn't want it.  But I kept  telling people in my circle of influence that health insurance delivery was an issue (thanks to idiots like you) and that we needed to fix something.

The GOP along with the complicit democrats have only spent the last 30 years screwing people coming and going on health care.

Additionally, they have created a ruling 1% class.

I wonder if you ever figured out you were probably part of that when you were killing granny by denying her claims.


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## Sun Devil 92 (Nov 6, 2016)

Eloy said:


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And I watched stupid people with insurance refuse to address health issues that wound up killing them.

I hate to break it to you, but there are still people dying from treatable diseases after the ACA.  In fact, I venture to say that you'll see an increase in that as it has made general care very expensive.


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## Eloy (Nov 6, 2016)

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## HenryBHough (Nov 6, 2016)

Times of India now _speculating_ that Trump will be elected because of the punishing new rates for Obamacare.  Interesting take from that sort of politically organized country.  No, link is by subscription and I doubt anyone who would challenge has the money to buy one.


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## Vandalshandle (Nov 6, 2016)

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Well, now, Sun, where youu are going wrong in your thinking is that you have some sort of notion that I CARE what you think about me. that seems to stem from another wrong notion that you have that this thread is about me.

You need to reboot both of those fallacies before continuing your quest for the truth.


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## Sun Devil 92 (Nov 6, 2016)

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Did I ever indicate that I thought you cared ?

In fact, the opposite.  It is quite clear you only care about yourself.

I understand that 50 years is a long time to decompress from.  Best of luck.

You really think I care about any advice you have for me ?


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## Andylusion (Nov 6, 2016)

Vandalshandle said:


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But again................

If all that was true, then why are all the other companies, BMW, VW, Toyota, Hyundai, Honda, and dozens I didn't list.....   Why are they all opening factories here in the US?   

According to you, all of these companies should be moving their plants to Mexico.    

If the problem was health care, then are all these other companies not paying health care?     It's not health care.  That's just BS crap, made up by the Unions, to explain why Union companies are going bankrupt, and non-union companies are not.

I get it that you don't care about the Unions, but you are touting their propaganda.

This narrative that it's health care costs that are the problem... is just simply not true.

You mentioned Ford for example.

Do you know how many manufacturing plants Ford has in the US?   26.

Do you know how many they have in Mexico?   4 including their newest one.

*26* here in the US.   *4* in Mexico.

Here you freaking out over the new Mexico plant, and claiming that it's health care costs driving all manufacturing into Mexico.... meanwhile Ford has 26 different manufacturing plants in the US, and some were recently expanded in 2009.  (about three of them).

By your logic, Ford should have closed them all down and moved them to Mexico.

Why are they not doing this?

Because health care costs are not the problem.   Back in 2006, Ford met with the Unions, and got concessions that allowed them to be profitable, even with the 2008 crash, which is why Ford was the only Union domestic that didn't need a bailout.

GM and Chrysler met with the Unions too, but the Unions refused to cut a deal, because they knew that Obama would be pro-Union, and back their cause... which as we now know, he did exactly what the special interests wanted.

When the Unions gave concessions, Ford expanded and created more jobs.

Did health care not affect Ford, while it destroyed GM and Chrysler?   No, it did.   Health care is not the problem.  Unions were the problem.


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## Andylusion (Nov 6, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> Andylusion said:
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That simply isn't true.  You are lying.    In 2006, I had private insurance, for $67 a month, that didn't need a government subsidy, or a corporate backer.

It was paid for by me, and I could afford it.

Now, thanks to you liars, now I can't afford it, and it's your fault.


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## Andylusion (Nov 6, 2016)

sealybobo said:


> Andylusion said:
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I could afford it, before you screwed up the system.    Now I can't.

See this is how stupid you people are.   You jack up taxes, to pay for health care, than say "you can afford it if you have money.  Do you?"

Yeah, now I can't afford health care.  Not because of Capitalism, but because of your socialism.   I had insurance in the past, that I could pay for out of pocket.  Now, thanks to you, I can't afford it.

Your fault dude.  Not capitalism.


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## Andylusion (Nov 6, 2016)

Tipsycatlover said:


> Vandalshandle said:
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Yeah, exactly.   In fact the biggest growth in Medical Tourism.... TO THE US..... is Chinese.

Medical Tourism On The Rise As Chinese Patients Seek Care At US Hospitals, American Companies Court China’s Healthcare Market

Not that the facts will chance the minds of these morons.


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## Vandalshandle (Nov 7, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> Vandalshandle said:
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There has not been a TV set manufactured in the USA since the 1980's. All fabric manufacturing has moved out. In short, all labor intensive businesses are moving out. Ford announced that they are shifting small car assembly to Mexico next year. Nothing is coming back. The labor cost in Mexico is less than 20% of the labor cost in the USA, and health care costs are a major part of the problem. No other country in the world saddles employers with this cost, so how is Chrysler supposed to compete with Toyota?Hyundai, etc., are building robotic plants in the US. The labor intensive plants that Ford used to have are gone. if your plant hires only 1/10th the number of employees that 1980 plants employed, you can afford to pay for some health care. My step-father built Fords in Atlanta and Hapeville, GA from 1922 to 1973. That plant is now permanently closed. if you walk in to a auto assembly plant that was built in the last 5 years, this is what you will see:


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## Andylusion (Nov 7, 2016)

Vandalshandle said:


> Andylusion said:
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Nearly everything you see, is true.   But again, it still doesn't apply to Health care... why?

For example, you mention that no TVs are built in the US.    True.

Problem is, TV manufacturing is gone from most of Europe, which has universal 'free' health care.

In fact, Japan, which has gov-care, is now outsourcing nearly all TV production to other countries.

Leading TV Brands More Reliant on Chinese Manufacturers in 2015, IHS Says | IHS Online Newsroom

If the problem was expensive health care costs on US manufacturers, then what is up with Japan, and Europe, also manufacturing out of their respective countries?

Again, you ask how can Chrysler possibly compete with Toyota?   Well Toyota is hiring US labor, and paying US health care costs.  What advantage does Toyota have over Chrysler?   Just one... Unions.   Toyota is expanding, and growing, and creating jobs... and they are paying for the same health care costs, that Ford and Chrysler are.

And you mentioned that all these jobs are going to Mexico, and the factories here are all automated, and still want to blame health care costs.

Have you seen the factories in Mexico?





This is a manufacturing plant in Mexico.  See all those people?   Nope? Me neither.  It is currently the worlds largest automated manufacturing plant, in the world.    Not having health care costs, didn't change anything.





Automated Kia factory in Mexico.




Chrysler pickup factory Mexico.




Philips manufacturing plant for TVs in Mexico.





And lastly.... fittingly....  Ford manufacturing plant in China.

What's my point?    Again.... as I have said over and over...  if health care was the problem... if having government pay for it was the solution.... then why are all these other countries which have gov-care, still automating?

I'm sorry, but you are just wrong.  The facts simply do not support your claims.

If health care costs, was the real issue, then why are all these other factories built in all these countries with government-care, still moving to cheaper countries, and still automating?     You are just wrong on this.  That's all there is to it.   The facts do not support your position.


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## Vandalshandle (Nov 7, 2016)

Have it your way, Andy. ACA was our way of trying to give you a chance to buy something that could save your life, instead of simply telling you, "Declined for coverage, uninsurable". If you are pissed that it is not cheap, then I don't think that we can fix that. 

Basically, your choices are:
1. protect yourself from catastrophic health care costs, but it is going to cost you, (ACA), or
2. our underwriter tells me that you are uninsurable at any price (insurance before ACA). Get lost.

Unfortunately, unlike every other industrialized nation in the world, there is no third choice, which would be essentially medicare for all ages.

So, either 1, or 2. make your decision. I think you already have.


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## Sun Devil 92 (Nov 7, 2016)

Andylusion said:


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Was buying the same kinds of policies for others.  

Obamacare made inexpensive insurance illegal.

Junk plans only became the rages when the left got caught screwing people like you.  They were not junk....they did what they were supposed to do.


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## Sun Devil 92 (Nov 7, 2016)

Vandalshandle said:


> Have it your way, Andy. ACA was our way of trying to give you a chance to buy something that could save your life, instead of simply telling you, "Declined for coverage, uninsurable". If you are pissed that it is not cheap, then I don't think that we can fix that.
> 
> Basically, your choices are:
> 1. protect yourself from catastrophic health care costs, but it is going to cost you, (ACA), or
> ...



You missed the point completely.  By a million miles.

You could protect yourself from catastrophic health care costs before the ACA for a WHOLE LOT LESS.  

The ACA was designed to make people like Andy pay for others who are even less fortunate.  

The insurance comapnies are getting fat and rich in the middle.  So once again, government comes to the aid of the 1%ers.  

Thanks Obama.

"I don't think we can fix that" ???? Seriously.  

YOU BROKE IT.


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## Sun Devil 92 (Nov 7, 2016)

Andylusion said:


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Excellent post Andy.

The missing piece in all of this is that those robotic plants don't run themselves.  There may be less labor in making the cars, but what about the robots.  Look at those pictures and you see a great deal of technology support people who didn't used to exist.  Additionally, there are a great many more support people as inventory management has become a much more intense effort.


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## Vandalshandle (Nov 7, 2016)

Sun Devil 92 said:


> Vandalshandle said:
> 
> 
> > Have it your way, Andy. ACA was our way of trying to give you a chance to buy something that could save your life, instead of simply telling you, "Declined for coverage, uninsurable". If you are pissed that it is not cheap, then I don't think that we can fix that.
> ...



It wouldn't be so pathetic, if you had even the slightest idea of what you were talking about.

As VP of Underwriting, I spent 50 years giving people death sentences when they came begging for insurance. One guy even sent me a photo of his infant child in a casket who had been born with a hole in his heart, and no surgeon would repair it on credit.

I sleep just fine, at night, because of ACA.

And frankly, all the whining that I hear from people who are too cheap to take care of their families after what we did to put ACA in place, in spite of the GOP alternative, _which was nothing_, justs disgusts me.


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## Sun Devil 92 (Nov 7, 2016)

Vandalshandle said:


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It's hysterical you think this a reasonable response.

The ACA made inexpensive insurance illegal.  That's on you.

That you have a guilty conscience is not really justification for taking a marginal system and turning it to total crap.


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## Vandalshandle (Nov 7, 2016)

Sun Devil 92 said:


> Vandalshandle said:
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By, by, Sun. Can't talk now. Out rigging the election.....


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## Sun Devil 92 (Nov 7, 2016)

Vandalshandle said:


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Not that I've ever said anything about Trump's idiocy. 

I am really starting to doubt you were anything more than a mail boy.  

Even a VP in the bloosucker industry has to have some analytical skills.


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## Andylusion (Nov 7, 2016)

Vandalshandle said:


> Have it your way, Andy. ACA was our way of trying to give you a chance to buy something that could save your life, instead of simply telling you, "Declined for coverage, uninsurable". If you are pissed that it is not cheap, then I don't think that we can fix that.
> 
> Basically, your choices are:
> 1. protect yourself from catastrophic health care costs, but it is going to cost you, (ACA), or
> ...



It doesn't matter what your intentions were.   What matters is the results.   If a doctor killed every single patient he saw, but his intentions were to help... would you be sitting there saying "well his intentions were...."?

Again, you keep acting like insurance that covered people, never existed before Obamacare.   It did.  I had it.   You eliminated that insurance.

So I don't really give a crap that "ACA was our way of trying..."   Doesn't matter.   The fact is, I can't afford health insurance at all now.

Was I better off before the ACA, or after the ACA?   Answer... Before.

Medicare is going broke.  If you apply a system that is failing to more people, you have Greece, Venezuela, and Cuba.

Doctors Refuse To Accept Medicare Patients

Why the Mayo Clinic is refusing to see Medicare patients

http://health.usnews.com/health-new...2013/10/30/top-hospitals-opt-out-of-obamacare

Doctors refusing Medicare.  Mayo Clinic refusing medicare.   Cleveland Clinic opting-out of ACA.

Yeah, what a great system.  Let's have Medicare for everyone.  That way we can all be on waiting lists like the VA until we die before getting treatment.


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## Ravi (Nov 7, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> Ravi said:
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The link from your first policy was not from healthcare.gov. It was from an insurance broker or company. So yeah, you are comparing totally different things.


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## Andylusion (Nov 7, 2016)

Ravi said:


> Andylusion said:
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I am beginning to think you are looking for any excuse to avoid facing the facts.




There is the health insurance policy on the Healthcare.gov website, posted 2016.





Here you can see, the Aetna company, the massive premium, subsidized by .... well you... and my $80.20 a month premium.  Further you can see the policy ID from the first pict, matches the policy ID on the second pict.

I will say it again.  This is an Obamacare policy, that is now terminated thanks to Aetna leaving the market because it's all screwed up.

And the next cheapest policy is 50% higher, at $125, as shown from the prior pictures.

Now....  at this point, you either admit you are wrong, or you admit by default, that you are too stupid to talk to.

Either one I'm good with.  Make your choice.


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## Maryland Patriot (Nov 8, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> Vandalshandle said:
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why are all these other countries able to do it and the U.S companies are claiming that the new fees for health care will chase them out business?
 Those companies, as well as the citizens in those countries with the social health care were built with that as a cost to be considered from day one, the citizens have worked the cost into their household budget.
 If you suddenly throw such a huge cost on a business that has not been built with that in mind, or you suddenly put that expense on an individual, the resources are not there. Business will close, employees will be let go, people will lose their homes when they cant make the mortgage anymore, they will stop spending on many different products and activities that were once part of their natural daily routine. And as people stop taking vacations, or they stop going out to eat or to the movies etc... secondary companies are going to start to feel the drain even more.
 Putting the type of financial burden on workers or business this rapidly can only cause a failure in the economy.


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## Greenbeard (Nov 8, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> And the next cheapest policy is 50% higher, at $125, as shown from the prior pictures.



If you're talking about the MedMetual plan you posted pages ago, that has _virtually the exact same premium_. 

That 2016 Aetna plan has a premium of $241.20. The 2017 MedMetual plan you posted on p.23 of the thread has a premium of $241.24.

A four-cent higher premium on a base of $241 is not 50%. It's actually a 0.02% premium increase. Sounds like a real death spiral!

Now if you mean the value of your federal _subsidy_ decreased, that seems to be true. But that means either 1) your income went up, or 2) silver plans in your area got a lot cheaper in 2017.


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## Andylusion (Nov 8, 2016)

Greenbeard said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > And the next cheapest policy is 50% higher, at $125, as shown from the prior pictures.
> ...



Again everything you said could be true.... doesn't matter.    

In 2006, I had an insurance policy that was $67 a month flat.   I didn't have to pray to the Obama-gods for a subsidy. I didn't have to keep a job.  I didn't have to do anything but pay the premium.

If you are correct, and the base premium is $240 for both the old policy and the new policy, it doesn't matter.

My bill.... the amount I have to pay... went from $80 to $125.  I can't afford that.   That's a 50% increase in one year.  I don't have the money.

You people dance around like fools.   First it was we don't believe you at all.   So I posted picts, and you people said I was comparing different policies.   So I posted more picts, and it was well that one policy isn't an ObamaCare policy.  So I posted more picts, and now it's yeah well the base premium isn't any different.

You people are like the Soviets.  The soviets came up with endless excuses.  When Nikita Khrushchev came to the US in 1959, he toured around in an average super market, and was shocked by all the goods.  Instead of admiting socialism doesn't work, he claimed that it was a show store, that it wasn't like that in the rest of America.

Similarly Cuba has blamed the 'embargo' for all their problems for decades.  When Obama indicated he wanted to end the embargo, the Cuban government immediately told it's people that the end of the embargo may not fix everything.

It's always excuses with you people.  Always.  No matter how much evidence I post, you just find some other lame excuse for your BS belief system.


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## Arianrhod (Nov 8, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> If you are correct, and the base premium is $240 for both the old policy and the new policy, it doesn't matter.



You mean it didn't matter as long as someone else was paying for you.  But you're the first one to complain about "takers" if it's someone else.



Andylusion said:


> My bill.... the amount I have to pay... went from $80 to $125.  I can't afford that.   That's a 50% increase in one year.  I don't have the money.



If you're that poor, you're eligible for Medicaid.  You should look into that.


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## Andylusion (Nov 8, 2016)

Maryland Patriot said:


> Andylusion said:
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When you say they are able to "do it", that's an broad statement.

For example, in Singapore, they are able to "do it", by cramming 20 sick patients in a single room.



 

That's one way we can reduce cost.   Rent a basketball court, and cram dozens of beds in there.

Now of course if someone is contagious, then you risk spreading the sickness.   But it is cheaper.

That's how Singapore is able to 'do it'.

England trauma services 'not good enough'

Or we could simply not have surgeons on standby at Emergency rooms, like in the UK.   20% higher death rate at UK Emergency rooms, than in the US, because they don't have surgeons on standby.

That's how the UK is able to 'do it'.



 

Or we can simply ration care.    Where people wait months on end to see anyone.  We could do that.

That's how most countries do it.

We can cut costs here in the US very easily.  Just cut treatments, cut services, reduce availability.  Cram 30 people in a room.

The reason we pay the most for care, is because we get the best care.


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## Andylusion (Nov 8, 2016)

Arianrhod said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > If you are correct, and the base premium is $240 for both the old policy and the new policy, it doesn't matter.
> ...



Actually I don't complain about takers.   I complain about givers.   I'll take everything you are dumb enough to give me.   That's on you stupid.

Again..... I had a policy in 2006 that was $67 a month, and it didn't require a subsidy.

You caused this problem.  You eliminated all those plans.   So now I have no choice but to get a subsidized plan, and now you removed the subsidy..... and you want to blame me, for your incompetence?    I didn't vote for this train wreck stupid.... you did.

I have looked into Medicaid.   Medicaid patient get worse care than people without any insurance at all.  I'll go to the hospital with zero insurance, rather than with Medicaid.

Is Being on Medicaid Worse Than Having No Insurance at All?

You'd be better off going to the hospital with nothing, than with Medicaid.

By the way.......   for extra credit....     I wonder if you, or anyone can figure out why.   Can you figure out this riddle?


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## Arianrhod (Nov 8, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> Arianrhod said:
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I'm puzzled by who you seem to think I am.  If it were up to me, America would join the rest of the civilized world and provide affordable health care to all of its citizens.


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## Vandalshandle (Nov 8, 2016)

Arianrhod said:


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Andy is pissed because his health care isn't free.


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## Greenbeard (Nov 8, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> Again everything you said could be true.... doesn't matter.



Could be true? _You_ provided the information, not me. You posted screenshots of a 2016 plan and a 2017 plan that both clearly list the same premium, +/- 4 cents. Looks like premium growth in bronze plans in your area was zero this year. 

And, based on the fact that your subsidy shrank, it sounds like premiums for silver plans in your area actually dropped. Unless the reason for the falling subsidy is that your income increased.


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## Andylusion (Nov 8, 2016)

Greenbeard said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Again everything you said could be true.... doesn't matter.
> ...



How does any of that change the fact the cost to me, went from $80 to $125?

It doesn't.   I repeat.... what you said, doesn't matter.   If I can't afford it, all your endless rationalizations and excuses, and diversions, do not matter.

No poor person is sitting around saying "even though my premiums went up so high I can't afford it, at least the premiums for silver plans went down!   Yay Obamacare!"

No one is saying that.  No one is.  Period.

Nothing you said changes the fact that I could afford health insurance before Obama Care, and now I can not.   That fact, trumps everything else you have said.


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## Andylusion (Nov 8, 2016)

Arianrhod said:


> Andylusion said:
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Which is why their citizens come to our country, routinely, to pay for care.

You keep saying it, as if just saying it makes it true.   We've covered this.  Socialized care sucks around the world.   And many of those system are in dire trouble right now.

In fact, our socialized care system is in dire trouble.   The VA sucks horribly.   And Medicare is going broke.

Yes, you want to kill your fellow citizens with bad government care.  I get that.  Maybe we can have the President or Senators flying to Canada to get care, just like their PMs come to the US for care.  While the poor, who don't have unlimited resources of the upper elite, will simply die on waiting lists... and that's a win in your book?


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## Andylusion (Nov 8, 2016)

Vandalshandle said:


> Arianrhod said:
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You are a liar.   Hillary and you, are a perfect match.  Our country would be better off if you didn't exist.


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## Vandalshandle (Nov 9, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> Vandalshandle said:
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Even Medicaid, which is free, does not satisfy you, does it?

Cheer up. Trump is dedicated to repealing ACA, That means you will have to demonstrate good health to buy ANY insurance. 

Happy now?


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## Andylusion (Nov 9, 2016)

Vandalshandle said:


> Andylusion said:
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Now you have two things in common with Hillary.  You both are pathological liars, and you lost this argument like Hillary lost the election.

1.  Medicaid is massively expensive in taxes.
2.  Medicaid has monthly premiums.
3.  As I have proven with citations in prior posts, people on Medicaid get worse treatment than those with no insurance at all.   Why do you want poor people to end up worse off, than those without insurance at all?   Why do you promote a system that harms people?

As for Trump... Trump winning isn't a victory.  Him being better than Hillary, doesn't mean he's good.

I highly doubt Trump will actually undo the damage of the ACA.   It isn't likely at all that he'll impose a true free-market capitalist system.

My wager will be that if he repeals the ACA at all, it will only be replaced with a similar bad system.

If he does actually repeal it, and allow a free-market system, then yes I guarantee that I'll be able to find insurance I can afford, and yes I will be happy with it.   Again, I doubt Trump will do that.


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## Arianrhod (Nov 9, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> You are a liar.   Hillary and you, are a perfect match.  Our country would be better off if you didn't exist.



What a thoughtful, content-filled post, well within the rules of the forum, which is why Westwall doesn't seem to have a problem with it.  Fair and balanced.


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## Andylusion (Nov 9, 2016)

Arianrhod said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > You are a liar.   Hillary and you, are a perfect match.  Our country would be better off if you didn't exist.
> ...



It was an accurate, and evidence supported statement about the lack of quality of the trash I was responding to.

When you make up lies and excuses, and fabrications, then my post was accurate and reasoned.

If you can't handle that, then maybe you should find something better to than post insults, lies and attacks at the other person.

Otherwise, stop crying when what you dish out, is served right back to you.

It's amazing how people who scream insults and lies repeatedly, instantly start crying and whining when they get their own poop thrown back in their face.  You can't handle it, then maybe you shouldn't be here.


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## Arianrhod (Nov 10, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> Arianrhod said:
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First of all, it wasn't me you were responding to.

Second of all, I'm not a mod but, as I read the forum rules, you are in direct violation.

However, I've noticed that posters on one side of the fence generally get a pass, so enjoy your privilege.  Just don't get butthurt if I occasionally point out that you're one of the special ones.

I predict my post will be deleted before yours is.


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## Greenbeard (Nov 10, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> How does any of that change the fact the cost to me, went from $80 to $125?



I'm just pointing out that based on your posts, premiums in your area haven't increased at all in the past year (and in fact are probably dropping).

Which is not all what you said in the post I originally responded to. If you're asking me to wave a magic so that you can pay in 2017 what you paid in 2006, I can't help you. For any good or service.


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## Andylusion (Nov 12, 2016)

Greenbeard said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > How does any of that change the fact the cost to me, went from $80 to $125?
> ...



So in your world...........    My premium can go from $80 to $125, and that is clearly an indication that premiums are falling?

What are you, a "1984" reject?   Is this new speak, where chocolate rations went "up" from 200 grams to 150 grams?

Do tell how many hundreds of people are rejoicing that their premiums went "down" from $80 to $125?

You show me that person.   Then I'll agree.


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## Andylusion (Nov 12, 2016)

Arianrhod said:


> Andylusion said:
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I don't really care what you think.  The other poster was insulting, slandering and directly fabricating false claims about me.

You worthless bits of human trash, have no problem doing all of that and more and the moment one of us fights back, and slaps you people across the face with your own insults and fabrication.... all of a sudden you go running off to the forum rules and start splashing your tears all over the forum how the meany right-wingers actually hit back, and *cry cry* you can't take it.

Well too bad.  Being Christian and right-wing, doesn't mean I'm a wimp.  You want to dish it out, you had better be able to take it being dished back.  Jesus called the hypocrites of his day, white washed tombs.  Nice and pretty on the outside, and filled with dead men's bones.

And I call you hypocrites out as being the pansy wussy whiners that you have revealed yourselves to be on this forum.

My experience on here, is that the forum mods are pretty fair.  They don't punish either side, or they punish both.   I don't care which they do, as long as the same standard applies.   You don't want a flame war, then stop spewing flames.   I don't start the fight, but I'll sure finish it.  Either way, with all due respect, quit with the whine and cheese routine.   Just stop insulting and attacking people, and you won't be attacked.   Or.... shut up when people fight back.  Stop being such a 2-year-old.


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## Greenbeard (Nov 12, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> So in your world...........    My premium can go from $80 to $125, and that is clearly an indication that premiums are falling?



The only way your subsidy can fall is if (1) your income went up, or (2) silver plans in your market got cheaper. By the amount of bitching you're doing, I'm assuming your income didn't go up.

You already proved for us that bronze premiums were flat in your market, and your subsidy story shows that silver premiums actually fell.


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## Andylusion (Nov 12, 2016)

Greenbeard said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > So in your world...........    My premium can go from $80 to $125, and that is clearly an indication that premiums are falling?
> ...



Again..... why do you think that matters?    Does anyone care why the premium went from $80 to $125 if they can't afford $125?

I have auto insurance.  My auto insurance premium hasn't changed significantly in 10 years.  My income going up, or down, didn't magically make my premium unaffordable. 

My life insurance premium has been exactly the same for 10 years.  It hasn't changed up or down because of my income, or anything the government did.

My home insurance hasn't changed significantly in 10 years.   The insurance company didn't say "oh you earn more, so your rate will now double for no reason.

Everything you have said, doesn't change the fact that I can not afford the new premium.  Doesn't matter about blaw blaw blaw and this reason or that reason.

I can not afford it.  Period.  So, now I don't have insurance.

So again, I ask the question, am I better off now, or before Obama Care, when I could afford my own insurance?   Answer: before.


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## sealybobo (Aug 16, 2017)

Oldstyle said:


> The letter from Florida Blue arrived yesterday and my insurance premiums will have a 350% increase starting this January.  Affordable Care Act?  Thanks Barry!  Thanks Harry!  Thanks Nancy!  Thanks Democrats!
> 
> What the hell happened to my savings of $2,500 a year?


Are you mad Republicans did repeal? Bet you are


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## miketx (Aug 16, 2017)

Ricechickie has no room to talk about declawing a pussy. This is hers:


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## eagle1462010 (Aug 16, 2017)

Obamacare was never passed to fix the problem.............it was passed as a stepping stone to single payer..............

That has always been their goal.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Aug 16, 2017)

miketx said:


> Ricechickie has no room to talk about declawing a pussy. This is hers:
> 
> View attachment 144125



  Looks like it'd be a little tough on the Johnson....


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## HereWeGoAgain (Aug 16, 2017)

miketx said:


> Ricechickie has no room to talk about declawing a pussy. This is hers:
> 
> View attachment 144125



  Does she have to floss after a little action?


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## miketx (Aug 16, 2017)

Somehow I posted that in the wrong forum.


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## sealybobo (Sep 4, 2018)

Oldstyle said:


> The letter from Florida Blue arrived yesterday and my insurance premiums will have a 350% increase starting this January.  Affordable Care Act?  Thanks Barry!  Thanks Harry!  Thanks Nancy!  Thanks Democrats!
> 
> What the hell happened to my savings of $2,500 a year?


How has this improved since you started this thread?  Other than you no longer have insurance.  Or do you have a cheap insurance that doesn't cover anything?  I have a friend he has bare bones insurance and his wife got cancer and he had to have a fundraiser.  I didn't give shit because he votes Republican.  Fuck him he did that to himself.  You Americans have the jobs and healthcare you deserve. 

Just another reason you'll probably die penniless.


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## miketx (Sep 4, 2018)

sealybobo said:


> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> > The letter from Florida Blue arrived yesterday and my insurance premiums will have a 350% increase starting this January.  Affordable Care Act?  Thanks Barry!  Thanks Harry!  Thanks Nancy!  Thanks Democrats!
> ...


How does it help to die with money?


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## BlueGin (Sep 4, 2018)

WillowTree said:


> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> > The letter from Florida Blue arrived yesterday and my insurance premiums will have a 350% increase starting this January.  Affordable Care Act?  Thanks Barry!  Thanks Harry!  Thanks Nancy!  Thanks Democrats!
> ...


That and the deductible. 

The only people who can afford to go to the doctor are the people on welfare


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## sealybobo (Sep 4, 2018)

miketx said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Oldstyle said:
> ...


You must not have any money if you are asking that question.  

The point is, you don't know how long you are going to live.  People who talk like you will be in for a rude awakening when you get in your 60's.  When you have to keep working even though physically and mentally you are done.  And your family will be in for a rude awakening too when you have to move in with them or they have to pay your funeral costs.  Or watch you die because you didn't have good insurance.


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## sealybobo (Sep 4, 2018)

miketx said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Oldstyle said:
> ...



I found an article that might explain it to you

Do you want to die with money in the bank?

And by the way, I have all the toys.  Guns and property to hunt, a pontoon boat and a quadrunner.  

Bottom line is I want to know I won't run out of money.  I also want to be able to retire.  And I want to leave my nephews a nice sum of money.  

It's also that assurance that you have more than enough money no matter what happens.  Of course we would all love to know exactly how long we are going to live and spend every dime before we check out but that's not going to happen.

Do you expect or hope to live to 80?  What if you live till 90?  So you better save for the possibility that you might live till 90.  But if you don't, and you die at 80, you will leave some money behind and that's a good thing for your love ones.  Is it not?

I can't believe you asked that question.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Sep 4, 2018)

sealybobo said:


> miketx said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...



   I retired at 46 seven years ago.
Our plan is to live of dividends and savings (partially) and then live off of SS savings and dividends.
   Given the fact that most stop spending on frivolous crap,which we've already done for the most part since we've already acquired the costly items I see no problems in our future.
   I want for nothing but a quiet place in the country which we can easily afford.


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## sealybobo (Sep 4, 2018)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > miketx said:
> ...


You retired at 46?  Now that's amazing!!!  I wish I could.  That would probably take $2 million dollars I'm guessing.  I don't have a lot of bills I bet $1 million would do it except for healthcare.

What do you do for healthcare now?  If you can afford that and to retire at 46, you are rich.  Or you don't have healthcare?


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## eagle1462010 (Sep 4, 2018)

Someone must be triggered..........from current events....


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## HereWeGoAgain (Sep 4, 2018)

sealybobo said:


> HereWeGoAgain said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...



    Right now we're using the Wife's healthcare as she hasn't retired yet. Of course we've already planned for our healthcare post retirement. You'd be a fool not to.

     As far as being rich? We're in the top 3% and have planned our life all the way to death.

     After that my Niece gets everything.


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## Andylusion (Sep 4, 2018)

sealybobo said:


> Oldstyle said:
> 
> 
> > The letter from Florida Blue arrived yesterday and my insurance premiums will have a 350% increase starting this January.  Affordable Care Act?  Thanks Barry!  Thanks Harry!  Thanks Nancy!  Thanks Democrats!
> ...



We do have jobs we deserve.   Why do you think millions people around the world, come here to get a better future?
We do have the healthcare we deserve.  Why do you think we have the highest survival rates in the world, and people come here from Europe routinely, to get care?

Not likely.    I'm always confused by this "Cheap health insurance that covers nothing"?    What do you mean by that?  In 2006, before Obamacare wrecked the insurance market, I had a policy for $67 a month, that covered up to $2 Million dollars on catastrophic coverage.      That's pretty good I thought.   What more do you need to have covered?   Granted it doesn't cover alcoholism, but I don't drink anyway.   It doesn't cover addiction, but then I've never taken an illegal drug in my life.   It doesn't cover HIV and other STDs, but then I don't screw random women.  I only have sex with my wife.

Do tell.... why would I die penniless?     By the way..... whether you die penniless, or a multi-millionaire, you do know that you don't take anything with you into Heaven or Hell, so is it really that big of a deal?


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## Picaro (Sep 5, 2018)

Well, did anybody actually think OC was anything but a big welfare program for insurance companies and doctors? They eat up almost everybody's life savings eventually, have for decades now.  There is still blood to be squeezed form you turnips, and they go after those in waht's left of the 'middle class' with something to steal, not poor people, and you were all fine with that for decades, screwing over those icky blue collar types; now that they''re toast, guess who is next in line for The Treatment? You don't think the rich pay all those bribes so they can demand they pay their fair share, do you??? lol that's just silly talk. Enjoy the beds you've made for yourselves. You got what you asked for, even if you don't recognize it. Congratulations.

Oh and let me guess; the previous 20 odd pages are filled with sniveling anecdotal stories about how wonderful and cheap 'private insurance' was n stuff'. lol what a hoot.

Next is 'Medicare For All, and the Chamber Of Commerce, the GOP, and the DNC will all flood the country with 'refugees' and 'undocumented' criminals and bankrupt that in a couple of years. Get ready for it, since it's yet another agenda you clowns voted for.


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## dblack (Sep 5, 2018)

Oldstyle said:


> How the hell do they expect us to pay for this?  I'm in shock.  I'm seriously in shock.



They don't. That's a cancellation.


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## dblack (Sep 5, 2018)

Fenton Lum said:


> Other societies have figure this out, we don't want it figured out here.



Subjugation is not 'figuring it out'.


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## Mr Natural (Sep 5, 2018)

So where's the republican plan?

Oh, that's right, they don't do that kind of legislation.


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## dblack (Sep 5, 2018)

Mr Clean said:


> So where's the republican plan?
> 
> Oh, that's right, they don't do that kind of legislation.



Republican plan is to continue with ACA. They're never going to turn away from that kind of pork.


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## BlueGin (Sep 6, 2018)

Andylusion said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Oldstyle said:
> ...


Apparently they assume Medicaid and Medicare are100% free? Which they aren't.  Both have deductibles,co pays and co insurance that patients are responsible for. Plus Medicaid will only be reimbursing at 100% on covered services for a few more months. January 1,2020 they will only reimburse at 90%.


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