# Ideas for fixing minimum wage.



## Toronado3800 (Nov 12, 2018)

For the life of me I can't figure out why we don't just tie minimum wage to the Consumer Price Index or something.  Have it adjust yearly and leave it alone.

We COULD attach it to Gross Domestic Product, give everyone "skin in the game" so to say.

We COULD attach it to some measurement of Board of Directors pay/reimbursement packages for humorous effect.

Where would my first idea about the Consumer Price Index go wrong or is there a better measure?


----------



## DGS49 (Nov 12, 2018)

Dear Tornado Person:

No intelligent person wants to significantly increase the minimum wage.  Notice that when the Democrats had control of both house and the White House in Obama's first term, NOTHING was done on the minimum wage.

The minimum wage ITSELF is an economic abomination.  The price of EVERYTHING should be determined by the marketplace and everyone's right of contract.  If I am willing to sweep floors for $5/hr, and there is an employer who desires to employ me at that rate to sweep his floors, WHAT RIGHT DOES GOVERNMENT HAVE TO STEP IN AND SAY WE CANNOT ENTER INTO THIS CONTRACT?

Seriously.  How does Government get the right to do this?  

There is a natural minimum wage in every place at all times.  If I tried to hire a fast food worker in NYC for $8/hr, I would get no takers.  $10, probably not. But there is a wage at which I could get the workers I want, and they would be willing to work for that wage.  The numbers would be less in Keokuk, Iowa.

Democrats like to point to local Minimum Wage laws that are. harmless, to "prove" that increasing the minimum wage doesn't harm anyone.  But they choose locations where the natural minimum wage is already far above the legal minimum wage,  so that the local law is actually irrelevant.  But look at what's happening in Seattle.  Hours are being cut, business near the city limits are closing due to competition, people are losing their jobs.

And remember that the people who are hurt by this are the people at the bottom of the economic totem pole - the ones who can least afford the hit.  People with no HS diploma, single parents working part time to make ends meet.  And so on.

Any time the Government (or any supervening force) steps in and imposes a price (wage) that is higher than the natural minimum, three things occur: (1) the consumers of that commodity use less of it (i.e., hours and headcount are cut), (b) the consumers seek alternatives (automation, self-service), and (3) a black market is formed by people who will skirt the law for their own benefit.

Every minimum wage increase will reduce the chances of high school kids getting part time  and summer jobs.  At $15/hr, there are a LOT of retired people, working mothers, and others who had given up work, who will come out of the woodwork.  And what employer would prefer a pimply high school kid to a retired grandmother?


----------



## rightwinger (Nov 12, 2018)

Congress has proven that minimum wage is too controversial to handle fairly 

Raise it to $10 with a dollar increase every year until it reaches $15
Then tie it to the CPI


----------



## rightwinger (Nov 12, 2018)

DGS49 said:


> Dear Tornado Person:
> 
> No intelligent person wants to significantly increase the minimum wage.  Notice that when the Democrats had control of both house and the White House in Obama's first term, NOTHING was done on the minimum wage.
> 
> ...



The minimum wage was increased in 2009 when Dems had control of the House and Senate

Hasn’t been raised since


----------



## SobieskiSavedEurope (Nov 12, 2018)

Small businesses shouldn't have a minimum wage, but government should pump it up to 15, while corporations should have a 15 hour wage because they can afford it.


----------



## boedicca (Nov 12, 2018)

The obvious fix is to get rid of the minimum wage altogether.  Individuals should be free to set the the price for their labor.


----------



## Skull Pilot (Nov 12, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> For the life of me I can't figure out why we don't just tie minimum wage to the Consumer Price Index or something.  Have it adjust yearly and leave it alone.
> 
> We COULD attach it to Gross Domestic Product, give everyone "skin in the game" so to say.
> 
> ...



So you want to make it harder and more expensive for employers to hire people right?

There are some jobs that do not merit high pay just like there are some employees that don't merit a raise every year

The idea that a job must pay enough for anyone to live a defined lifestyle is ridiculous.

A job picking up piles of dog crap pays what it's worth to the market if you want to earn more then better yourself so that your skill set includes more than the minimum required to pick up dog crap.


----------



## Toronado3800 (Nov 12, 2018)

boedicca said:


> The obvious fix is to get rid of the minimum wage altogether.  Individuals should be free to set the the price for their labor.



Ideally yes.

But we don't live in that ideal world where socialism or capitalism really work in their pure form.  Too much of a minimum wage and people get lazy.  None and you have this race to the bottom and the power of money takes over.

So I argue about things in the middle.

This seems to be the history of how "high" the minimum wage is.  Them peaks and valleys are stupid and just make busy work for politicians.

Minimum wage in the United States - Wikipedia


----------



## Toronado3800 (Nov 12, 2018)

Skull Pilot said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > For the life of me I can't figure out why we don't just tie minimum wage to the Consumer Price Index or something.  Have it adjust yearly and leave it alone.
> ...



Unemployment isn't a problem.

I also didn't say much about increasing minimum wage, just tying it to inflation.  If anything that saves some time in congress.

FWIW, now that you mention it, tying minimum wage to CEO pay just might help companies stay more profitable.


----------



## Skull Pilot (Nov 12, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > Toronado3800 said:
> ...



I never mentioned unemployment but the ever increasing labor costs that you want will certainly make employers hire less as well as making them increase prices at a higher than the inflation rate pace so as to keep up with rising costs of doing business

And FWIW most people don't work for big corporations with high paid CEOS so why would their pay be related to what a CEO of a company they don't work for makes?


----------



## Toro (Nov 12, 2018)

Easy. 

Get rid of it.


----------



## boedicca (Nov 12, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> > The obvious fix is to get rid of the minimum wage altogether.  Individuals should be free to set the the price for their labor.
> ...




So what you are promoting is a corrupt distortion of natural market forces.

Capitalism and Socialism are not morally equivalent systems.  The former is based on Freedom. The Latter is based on Authoritarian Slavery.   Compromising by mixing the two doesn't improve natural markets.   In reality, it just makes more poor people.

The last three centuries are what you get from Capitalism; the prior periods are what you get under authoritarian regimes.


----------



## Oddball (Nov 12, 2018)

You cannot fix what is inherently morally wrong and economically foolhardy.

The State has shown, innumerable times, that it is entirely incapable of setting prices for *anything*, let alone labor.

The entire premise of the minimum wage should be abandoned altogether, as an irrelevant and useless tool of central planner halfwits.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 12, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> For the life of me I can't figure out why we don't just tie minimum wage to the Consumer Price Index or something.  Have it adjust yearly and leave it alone.
> 
> We COULD attach it to Gross Domestic Product, give everyone "skin in the game" so to say.
> 
> ...


seems like a good measure.  the minimum wage should be indexed to something so it is more automatic than the whim of Congress. 

And, we could be raising more tax revenue with a higher minimum wage.

And, higher paid labor creates more in demand.

Unemployment compensation for simply being unemployed solves Labor's problem.  

Means tested welfare can cover the rest.


----------



## Toronado3800 (Nov 12, 2018)

boedicca said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > boedicca said:
> ...



Sometimes I think on here we find battles where they are not necessary.  I'm not advocating we return to a system where some king's whim makes right or whatever.

Are you arguing for lawless capitalism where the ability to pay folks makes might?


----------



## Oddball (Nov 12, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> For the life of me I can't figure out why we don't just tie minimum wage to the Consumer Price Index or something.  Have it adjust yearly and leave it alone.
> 
> We COULD attach it to Gross Domestic Product, give everyone "skin in the game" so to say.
> 
> ...


For the life of me, I can't explain why The State should be setting any price for anything.

The moment you fix the foolish minimum wage to GDP, some do-gooder will come along and say that it's not good enough and want to change it again.

The annals of history are littered with the corpses of central economic planners everywhere. What sort of vanity is it that makes anyone think that they can make centralized price fixing work this time around?


----------



## Oddball (Nov 12, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> Sometimes I think on here we find battles where they are not necessary.  I'm not advocating we return to a system where some king's whim makes right or whatever.
> 
> Are you arguing for lawless capitalism where the ability to pay folks makes might?


"Lawless capitalism" is a throwaway political talking point.


----------



## Toronado3800 (Nov 12, 2018)

Oddball said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > For the life of me I can't figure out why we don't just tie minimum wage to the Consumer Price Index or something.  Have it adjust yearly and leave it alone.
> ...



Of course someone will.  Its a fallacy though that we should not try.  Certainly something on my 98 Lincoln is going to go and break in the near future.  Doesn't mean I shouldn't do a little maintenance today.

Also I would argue by tying it to CPI (or whatever) we would be making it LESS necessary for folks to have to go in and readjust it every so often.


----------



## boedicca (Nov 12, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> > Toronado3800 said:
> ...




What you are advocating for is the socialist bureaucrat's whim, which is even worse than the king's.   At least with a King, there is one throat to cut.  Anonymous bureaucrats are never held accountable and do a great deal of damage.


----------



## Toronado3800 (Nov 12, 2018)

Oddball said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > Sometimes I think on here we find battles where they are not necessary.  I'm not advocating we return to a system where some king's whim makes right or whatever.
> ...



Because you don't want lawless capitalism?  You want regulated capitalism and we are just disagreeing on particulars of those regulations?


----------



## Toronado3800 (Nov 12, 2018)

boedicca said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > boedicca said:
> ...



What I'm advocating for is for our elected representatives or us to give some degree of automation to the system erstwhile a group of really pro minimum wage folks might be in office in a decade and really jack it up.  Or the other way.


----------



## Oddball (Nov 12, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> Of course someone will.  Its a fallacy though that we should not try.  Certainly something on my 98 Lincoln is going to go and break in the near future.  Doesn't mean I shouldn't do a little maintenance today.
> 
> Also I would argue by tying it to CPI (or whatever) we would be making it LESS necessary for folks to have to go in and readjust it every so often.


 Ah, the old fallacy of "we have to try something"....The unspoken "at gunpoint if necessary" comes next when you're talking about central economic planning.

Your '98 Lincoln is a mechanical contraption that can be properly quantified and repaired....Economic conditions aren't as easily contained and malleable, as you're trying to force the behavior of millions of subjective and fickle people.


----------



## boedicca (Nov 12, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> > Toronado3800 said:
> ...




Sorry, bub.  I don't trust the government to decide anything by algorithm driven automation.


----------



## Toronado3800 (Nov 12, 2018)

boedicca said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > boedicca said:
> ...



I'm not sure I understand.  Are you saying, "Reagan sucked, America sucks.  We haven't figured out the best system on the planet and just need to tweak it here and there to make it better."


----------



## Oddball (Nov 12, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> Because you don't want lawless capitalism?  You want regulated capitalism and we are just disagreeing on particulars of those regulations?


Again, "lawless capitalism" is a throwaway buzz phrase of the economic social engineer....Market capitalism (real laissez-faire, not the crony mercantilism that passes for "capitalism" of today) is a force of nature that is entirely beyond the grasp of mere political tinkerers....It is nothing more than human vanity that makes anyone think that they can fiddle over at one end, without having unforeseeable , and often deleterious, consequences in other areas.


----------



## Toronado3800 (Nov 12, 2018)

Oddball said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > Because you don't want lawless capitalism?  You want regulated capitalism and we are just disagreeing on particulars of those regulations?
> ...



I don't think I want laissez-faire, that's the system where someone sells me pills for this and that, I take them and if something bad happens I have to go hunt them down with a gun, right?


----------



## Oddball (Nov 12, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> I don't think I want laissez-faire, that's the system where someone sells me pills for this and that, I take them and if something bad happens I have to go hunt them down with a gun, right?


Government solipitence fallacy....Just because The State is currently doing something, doesn't automatically mean that they should be doing it, or that nobody would be doing it in absence of The State's meddling.


----------



## Toronado3800 (Nov 12, 2018)

Oddball said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think I want laissez-faire, that's the system where someone sells me pills for this and that, I take them and if something bad happens I have to go hunt them down with a gun, right?
> ...



OK.  Let's work on economic theory then.

If not our elected representatives, in laissez-faire world who would make sure the guy selling pills for heartburn really sells reasonably safe pills for fixing heartburn?


----------



## boedicca (Nov 12, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> > Toronado3800 said:
> ...



Don't push your projections on me.

I'm saying centralized planning in an increasingly complex world is an Epic Fail.


----------



## boedicca (Nov 12, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> Oddball said:
> 
> 
> > Toronado3800 said:
> ...




It's not a good business plan to harm or kills one's customers.

Just sayin'.

Here's the problem with your thinking: the type of people who think that businesses are devoted to screwing over their customers are people who operate that way themselves.  They are also the ones who want to have power over the minute aspects of our private lives.  Do you really want people like that telling you what job to have, where to live, what medicine to take?


----------



## Toronado3800 (Nov 12, 2018)

boedicca said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > Oddball said:
> ...



I really think our current systems just need tweaked, not abandoned. In the 1930's we had to adjust to not having a frontier for big government to give away as a safety net. No need to reinvent the wheel here, I'm just talking about saving this once a decade minimum wage spike tobmake business more predictable.


----------



## boedicca (Nov 12, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> > Toronado3800 said:
> ...




In the 1930s, FDR seized upon the Great Depression as a pretext to expand the progressivism Wilson institutionalized under the cover of WWI.   Just because we've done something stupid and damaging doesn't mean we should stick with it as a precedent.


----------



## Toronado3800 (Nov 12, 2018)

boedicca said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > boedicca said:
> ...



That New Deal is America as it has been a functioning Super Power. Any other change is radical.  

Also before we talk about the good ol small government days of the 1870's or whenever, remember the 19th century was one of exploiting out purchases/conquests. Instead of giving out welfare dollars big government gave away land across the continent to individuals and businesses alike. 

It would be like FDR's work for welfare programs. Lay track or build any kind of house and you get land. Go to work for the CCC and you get money. FWIW I generally support THAT kind of this for that welfare more than some f our current programs.


----------



## boedicca (Nov 12, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> > Toronado3800 said:
> ...




Translation:  All that government spending is great graft for grifters.


----------



## Toronado3800 (Nov 12, 2018)

boedicca said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > boedicca said:
> ...



Were the U.P. and C.P. grifters? On some level. I'm familiar with the Credit Mobilier scam. Was the cross country railroad a bad idea? 

Were all them farmers grifters?

All them CCC employees?

Trading this for that sounds like Capitalism and the government had a very real interest in making the west feel like part of the country. FDR had a very real and immenant issue in preventing a socialist revolution. Remember the Depression started in 29.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Nov 12, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> For the life of me I can't figure out why we don't just tie minimum wage to the Consumer Price Index or something.  Have it adjust yearly and leave it alone.
> 
> We COULD attach it to Gross Domestic Product, give everyone "skin in the game" so to say.
> 
> ...


A minimum wage would for the most part only effect low skilled workers, and in the age of AI, a large number of these jobs could be eliminated by smart machines.  The only reason these jobs exist at all now is that they cost less than the machines.  A minimum wage of any significance would cost low skilled workers their jobs and create new jobs for higher skilled workers that design and build smart machines.  The lesson here is forget about these political slogans about a minimum wage and encourage each worker to create his own minimum wage by acquiring higher paying skills.


----------



## Toronado3800 (Nov 12, 2018)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > For the life of me I can't figure out why we don't just tie minimum wage to the Consumer Price Index or something.  Have it adjust yearly and leave it alone.
> ...



Then it should grow less relavent with time.

How about we adjust Federal minimum wage forbthe CPI since the last increase then leave it tied to the Consumer Price Index? Hopefully after awhile everyone is making more like u say


----------



## boedicca (Nov 12, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> > Toronado3800 said:
> ...




You have bought into the economic myths regarding the stock market crash, the Great Depression and the New Deal.

_...
2. The New Deal Got the United States out of the Great Depression

The typical American history class has spread the notion that the New Deal was crucial to rein in the Great Depression. Although this assertion remains strong among the intelligentsia and general populace, it does not hold up to scrutiny of economic performance during that time.

While politically popular in areas where FDR performed poorly in elections, his Alphabet Soup of government agencies and programs did not even put a dent in the recession. In fact, the New Deal exacerbated and prolonged it.  

Economist Stephen Moore provides a clear depiction of the New Deal, one where the United States was still stuck in the economic doldrums. During this period, the average unemployment rate hoveredaround 18 percent, and American industrial production and national income fell almost by one third. It wasn’t until the end of World War II that the US economy finally rebounded..._

5 Myths about the Great Depression and New Deal


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Nov 12, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Toronado3800 said:
> ...


What I said was many of the people you claim to be helping will lose their jobs to smart machines and the new jobs created will be out of reach for the low skilled workers you would put out of work.


----------



## Toronado3800 (Nov 12, 2018)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...



But all I'm talking about is holding the status quo on minimum wage?


----------



## Toronado3800 (Nov 12, 2018)

boedicca said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > boedicca said:
> ...



So we agree grifters dontake advantage of the big governemnt programs of the 19th and 20th centuries but we also "get them" sometimes?

Wandering to the New Deal...






I'll let the GDP chart speak for me.

The destruction of virtually every other meaningful economy world wide sure did change things. Even now 70 years later we have to consider whats a natural readjustment and what is "us loosing our place"


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Nov 12, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Toronado3800 said:
> ...


What you are talking about is trying to make a political slogan appear to make sense.  Low skilled jobs have been disappearing for decades due to advances in technology and this will continue to happen and the pace is increasing.  There is already a natural minimum wage in effect; it is the    least workers are willing to accept and the most employers are willing to pay.


----------



## Slade3200 (Nov 12, 2018)

How about government pass a minimum wage requirement for government jobs and leave private business to set their own standards and compete? I’m open to setting standards on large corporations that control marketplaces and employ a large amount of citizens however I don’t think small businesses should be regulated in the same way.


----------



## boedicca (Nov 12, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> > Toronado3800 said:
> ...




That graph doesn't support what you think it does.


----------



## Oddball (Nov 12, 2018)

"Minimum wage"; two words....I hear two different words: "price fixing".

Let's reverse this minimum wage model....Let's say I'm one of those evil, greedy, stovepipe hat wearing, rat bastard businessmen, that progs are always trying to paint them as....Let's say I get together with the rest of the local evil, greedy, stovepipe hat wearing, rat bastard businessmen, in order to fix wages so low that  the poor, downtrodden, shoeless, rag-wearing serfs don't get paid enough to live in their cardboard boxes.....We'd all be slapped with an anti-trust lawsuit so fast, that it'd make our heads spin hard enough to make our stovepipe hats  fall off.

But have this special class of do-gooders known as politicians come in and fix prices, ostensibly in the favor of the poor suffering serfs, and this immoral model suddenly becomes the savior of the lower classes?


----------



## Wyatt earp (Nov 12, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > Toronado3800 said:
> ...




Give me one good reason why you want to raise it national?


.


----------



## task0778 (Nov 12, 2018)

If a company, city, county, or state wants to enact the minimum wage to an economic index of some kind, go ahead and have at it.  Such a policy will inevitably cost you jobs and benefits, but you can try it if you want to.  But a national m-wage is another story, I don't see the need or the right for anyone to dictate to someone else in another jurisdiction the requirement to pay their workers whatever the increased amount will be.   And automatically increasing the m-wage is precisely that.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 12, 2018)

Oddball said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > For the life of me I can't figure out why we don't just tie minimum wage to the Consumer Price Index or something.  Have it adjust yearly and leave it alone.
> ...


Fixing Standards for a State or the Union is where it starts.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 12, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> Oddball said:
> 
> 
> > Toronado3800 said:
> ...


tax  cut economics makes it harder to budget to spend on infrastructure.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 12, 2018)

boedicca said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > boedicca said:
> ...


equal protection of the law leads to automatic stabilization.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 12, 2018)

task0778 said:


> If a company, city, county, or state wants to enact the minimum wage to an economic index of some kind, go ahead and have at it.  Such a policy will inevitably cost you jobs and benefits, but you can try it if you want to.  But a national m-wage is another story, I don't see the need or the right for anyone to dictate to someone else in another jurisdiction the requirement to pay their workers whatever the increased amount will be.   And automatically increasing the m-wage is precisely that.


Why should it be a problem, with unemployment compensation for simply being unemployed?


----------



## Wyatt earp (Nov 12, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > Oddball said:
> ...



No one takes a liberal seriously on economics..


.
.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 12, 2018)

bear513 said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > Toronado3800 said:
> ...


we take the right wing even less seriously.


----------



## Wyatt earp (Nov 12, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> bear513 said:
> 
> 
> > danielpalos said:
> ...



We think you are a cartoon character


.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 12, 2018)

bear513 said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > bear513 said:
> ...


vaporware is all the right wing has.


----------



## Wyatt earp (Nov 12, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> bear513 said:
> 
> 
> > danielpalos said:
> ...



You silly 



.


----------



## Indeependent (Nov 12, 2018)

Do MW proponents presume know the operational costs of every business?


----------



## Oddball (Nov 12, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> Fixing Standards for a State or the Union is where it starts.


That is the most perverted misrepresentation of the weights and measures clause I have ever encountered...But no more perverted than than your economic delusions.


----------



## Toronado3800 (Nov 12, 2018)

bear513 said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



I was merely talking about tying it to inflation or the CPI or whatever as this debate is starting to come up again.  It gets tiresome every decade or so having to go raise it.


----------



## Oddball (Nov 12, 2018)

Indeependent said:


> Do MW proponents presume know the operational costs of every business?


They presume to know an awful lot of things that they can't possibly know.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 12, 2018)

Indeependent said:


> Do MW proponents presume know the operational costs of every business?


The Only needs to care that Capitalists can make it without cheap labor.  We can't compete on that with the less developed world.  And, higher paid labor can afford a first world economy.


----------



## Oddball (Nov 12, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> I was merely talking about tying it to inflation or the CPI or whatever as this debate is starting to come up again.  It gets tiresome every decade or so having to go raise it.


That still stems from the misguided notion that The State should, or even can, be setting prices for anything.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 12, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> bear513 said:
> 
> 
> > Toronado3800 said:
> ...


one good reason is the volatility of labor flight among the several States.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 12, 2018)

Oddball said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Do MW proponents presume know the operational costs of every business?
> ...


States have State Boards of Equalization to help Capitalists, get equalized.


----------



## Toronado3800 (Nov 12, 2018)

Slade3200 said:


> How about government pass a minimum wage requirement for government jobs and leave private business to set their own standards and compete? I’m open to setting standards on large corporations that control marketplaces and employ a large amount of citizens however I don’t think small businesses should be regulated in the same way.



That's interesting.  Big business has a way of making us all pay for their continued success.  Ask Amazon.

Where would you draw the lines?  50 employees?  A million in revenue?  I'll assume we have rules to get around the tricks of a company running itself as multiple corporations.


----------



## Oddball (Nov 12, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> Oddball said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...


You're so far out of your element that it's not even funny...Just stop.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 12, 2018)

Oddball said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > Oddball said:
> ...


They have entire Departments to help them out.  The State can help them get equalized in a State Capitalism friendly manner.


----------



## Toronado3800 (Nov 12, 2018)

Oddball said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > I was merely talking about tying it to inflation or the CPI or whatever as this debate is starting to come up again.  It gets tiresome every decade or so having to go raise it.
> ...



Yeah, the state has to be there for something.  Personally I think after this amount of time with a minimum wage the idea of going back to a time w/o one is more radical.  Almost something that would push folks to use labor unions.  A terrifying thought in this era of low unemployment.  I would have thought you preferred our elected officials setting workplace standards over the Teamsters. 

Unions are free market though.  Interesting.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 12, 2018)

We have a First World economy and should solve our social problems with modern economics technologies.


----------



## Oddball (Nov 12, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> Yeah, the state has to be there for something.  Personally I think after this amount of time with a minimum wage the idea of going back to a time w/o one is more radical.  Almost something that would push folks to use labor unions.  A terrifying thought in this era of low unemployment.  I would have thought you preferred our elected officials setting workplace standards over the Teamsters.
> 
> Unions are free market though.  Interesting.


No, The State doesn't need to be there, especially in the area of setting prices....When you're an opioid addict, the notion of not taking the drug seems a radical course of action....But nobody will argue that it's not the right thing to do.

With the Teamsters, there's at least something that passes itself off as negotiation...With The State you get no such option.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 12, 2018)

Oddball said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, the state has to be there for something.  Personally I think after this amount of time with a minimum wage the idea of going back to a time w/o one is more radical.  Almost something that would push folks to use labor unions.  A terrifying thought in this era of low unemployment.  I would have thought you preferred our elected officials setting workplace standards over the Teamsters.
> ...


Only the right wing complains about the Minimum wage in our First World economy.


----------



## Toronado3800 (Nov 12, 2018)

Oddball said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, the state has to be there for something.  Personally I think after this amount of time with a minimum wage the idea of going back to a time w/o one is more radical.  Almost something that would push folks to use labor unions.  A terrifying thought in this era of low unemployment.  I would have thought you preferred our elected officials setting workplace standards over the Teamsters.
> ...



Its not ideal I would admit. 

Our labor situation seems soo much more settled than during the Industrial Revolution.  How would it be different this time around?


----------



## Wyatt earp (Nov 12, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> bear513 said:
> 
> 
> > Toronado3800 said:
> ...



Because raising it causes it 



.


----------



## Toronado3800 (Nov 12, 2018)

bear513 said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > bear513 said:
> ...



That's fine. better to do it regular like instead of unpredictably every decade or so,


----------



## Wyatt earp (Nov 12, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> Oddball said:
> 
> 
> > Toronado3800 said:
> ...



Only left wing complains about a non issue


----------



## Wyatt earp (Nov 12, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> bear513 said:
> 
> 
> > Toronado3800 said:
> ...



Their has to be a reason why you want I raised, it's obvious you don't make minimum wage


.


----------



## Toronado3800 (Nov 12, 2018)

bear513 said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > Oddball said:
> ...



Hey, you don't identify as a "wing" do you?

I'll say having to bend my thoughts on any issue to a particular ideology or as a political party demands is a foreign idea to me.


----------



## Toronado3800 (Nov 12, 2018)

bear513 said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > bear513 said:
> ...



Efficiency is a thing.  The debate is being made again about readjusting to it.  If we had just fixed it to CPI or whatever last time America would be more efficient.


----------



## Wyatt earp (Nov 12, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> bear513 said:
> 
> 
> > danielpalos said:
> ...



It's a simple question, why do you want it raised national when you can do it local?

The democrats have now 60 million under their wing .


----------



## Wyatt earp (Nov 12, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> bear513 said:
> 
> 
> > Toronado3800 said:
> ...



Quit beating around the bush, you want it raised national so jobs don't leave blue States..


.


----------



## Toronado3800 (Nov 12, 2018)

bear513 said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > bear513 said:
> ...



I'm an American and prefer Federal Regulations.  I watch even the cities here bend offering more and more money to companies like Amazon to do this and that.  No need to set Americans competing against eachother in a race to the bottom.


----------



## Wyatt earp (Nov 12, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> bear513 said:
> 
> 
> > Toronado3800 said:
> ...



Look at the job boards, the higher a states minimum wage is the lower people get paid.


.


----------



## Wyatt earp (Nov 12, 2018)

Its Trickle up poor


----------



## Toronado3800 (Nov 12, 2018)

bear513 said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > bear513 said:
> ...



Cool. That other poster mentioned a danger of raising the minimum wage was a rise in inflation.  Guess we disproved that to them.


----------



## Wyatt earp (Nov 12, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> bear513 said:
> 
> 
> > Toronado3800 said:
> ...



How did you do that? Minimum wage used to be 25 cents an hour .


.


----------



## rightwinger (Nov 12, 2018)

boedicca said:


> The obvious fix is to get rid of the minimum wage altogether.  Individuals should be free to set the the price for their labor.



Allow low skilled workers to be exploited because they can't do anything about it

Might makes right


----------



## rightwinger (Nov 12, 2018)

bear513 said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > bear513 said:
> ...



Used to be able to buy a lot of stuff for a quarter


----------



## boedicca (Nov 12, 2018)

rightwinger said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> > The obvious fix is to get rid of the minimum wage altogether.  Individuals should be free to set the the price for their labor.
> ...



Tiresome bilge water, bub.

Here's what you pea-green with envy progs fail to realize:  minimum wage jobs have low economic value for a reason.   Those who take them get more than money; they gain skills, experience and a work ethic.   But you would rather deny people these benefits and turn them into wards of the state.


----------



## Wyatt earp (Nov 12, 2018)

rightwinger said:


> bear513 said:
> 
> 
> > Toronado3800 said:
> ...



And women were barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen..


You want it raised start local


.


----------



## task0778 (Nov 12, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> Slade3200 said:
> 
> 
> > How about government pass a minimum wage requirement for government jobs and leave private business to set their own standards and compete? I’m open to setting standards on large corporations that control marketplaces and employ a large amount of citizens however I don’t think small businesses should be regulated in the same way.
> ...



"Big business has a way of making us all pay for their continued success"

See, this is where you get it ass-backwards.   They don't make us pay for anything, it's our choice for what we buy and at what price.  We can choose to buy something at Amazon, or Walmart, or anywhere else, or not to buy it at all if we do not believe we are getting enough value for our money.   Big business is successful if and only if they provide us with what we want at a price we are willing to pay.   That is why competition is so important, we get more choices and better value for what we want.

Same deal with labor, as an employee I can decide whether or not to work for somebody or not at whatever wage they are offering.   If necessary, I can work there and gain the experience needed to get a better paying job elsewhere and move up the income ladder.   The M-Wage is supposed to be low-skill, entry-level jobs, it's not supposed to be a way of life and if you so choose not to make the effort to increase your the value of your skills and labor then that's on you.   I see no reason to automatically increase your pay to keep up with inflation, that is also on you.   Why is it that you and many other lib/dems will not take the personal responsibility for your decisions?


----------



## Toronado3800 (Nov 12, 2018)

bear513 said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > bear513 said:
> ...



Here is that poster who said raising the minimum wage causes inflation.  

Then this other poster against just tying minimum wage to the CPI said it lowers wages.  

That is the strangest thing.  Its like they both just have an ideology to support or a political party master telling them what they are and are not for.  If these posters used their own common sense they would be for or against this for a consistent reason.


----------



## Toronado3800 (Nov 12, 2018)

task0778 said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > Slade3200 said:
> ...



Its a trick of words.  you already set minimum wage at this or that % of what it costs to live.  Also during our lives they have revisited this several times always resetting it partially.

Really with big business making us pay, I was referencing how municipalities and states pay for corporate headquarters and this or that just like football stadiums.


----------



## Toronado3800 (Nov 12, 2018)

task0778 said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > bear513 said:
> ...



Minimum wage is this or that ratio or percentage to CPI.  Unemployment is 3%.  Where is the harm in fixing minimum wage there?  I think we are just as likely to screw it up too high or to low every ten or fifteen years and would just like to set it.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 12, 2018)

bear513 said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > Oddball said:
> ...


thank you for your support for a fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage and unemployment compensation for simply being unemployed.


----------



## Wyatt earp (Nov 12, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> task0778 said:
> 
> 
> > Toronado3800 said:
> ...



Do it local


----------



## Toronado3800 (Nov 12, 2018)

bear513 said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > task0778 said:
> ...



Do it local and have every city and county in America competing with eachother?  Please, let some group of idiots pay Amazon to build a building there so we can bail them out?

Bully the red states?  In this case I think you mean bully the old blue states if anyone doesn't have a minimum wage.  For something dramatic, go Eisenhower for using the Band of Brothers to bully Arkansas into the 19th century in 1957.  Little Rock Nine - Wikipedia

Here we are talking not about creating a minimum wage, not about effectively raising it, but just fixing it to some economic indicator.


----------



## Wyatt earp (Nov 12, 2018)

You need the national minimum up to prevent jobs from leaving your states


Admit it 


.


----------



## Wyatt earp (Nov 12, 2018)

Trickle up poor/ trickle up misery



.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 12, 2018)

bear513 said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > task0778 said:
> ...


allegedly low tax red States are cheaper for a less developed reason; only the third world is less developed.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 12, 2018)

bear513 said:


> Trickle up poor/ trickle up misery
> 
> 
> 
> .


why complain about a Minimum wage; not generous enough?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 12, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> For the life of me I can't figure out why we don't just tie minimum wage to the Consumer Price Index or something.  Have it adjust yearly and leave it alone.
> 
> We COULD attach it to Gross Domestic Product, give everyone "skin in the game" so to say.
> 
> ...



*For the life of me I can't figure out why we don't just tie minimum wage to the Consumer Price Index or something. *

For the life of me I can't figure out why we don't just eliminate the minimum wage.


----------



## task0778 (Nov 12, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> task0778 said:
> 
> 
> > Toronado3800 said:
> ...



You kinda skirted the argument there, nice evasion.  The politicians set the M-Wage according to politics, none of them give a flying fuck about the people who will lose their jobs or benefits as a result.  Do you realize that whenever you raise the M-Wage, whether it's done automatically or not, you are incentivizing businesses to automate jobs out of existence?  Or they cut the hours worked, or they cut the benefits, or they move to another place where the labor is cheaper, or they raise their prices to cover the higher costs of labor.   And if they can't do any of these things successfully then they go out of business, and everybody loses then.   You get that, right?  

This isn't a question of a study done somewhere, this is plain economics, supply and demand that everyone should understand.   Our domestic companies have to compete with foreign businesses that can make stuff in their country, ship it here, and STILL sell it for less than what we can make it here.   Even though the shipping costs are getting higher and higher, and people like you want to make the situation even worse.   Reality is a bitch dude, there are consequences to raising the M-Wage that simply cannot be ignored.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 12, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > For the life of me I can't figure out why we don't just tie minimum wage to the Consumer Price Index or something.  Have it adjust yearly and leave it alone.
> ...



*And, higher paid labor creates more in demand.*

Exactly! When the cost of labor is increased from $7.25 to $15.00, employers demand more of it....DERP!


----------



## Slade3200 (Nov 12, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> Slade3200 said:
> 
> 
> > How about government pass a minimum wage requirement for government jobs and leave private business to set their own standards and compete? I’m open to setting standards on large corporations that control marketplaces and employ a large amount of citizens however I don’t think small businesses should be regulated in the same way.
> ...


I could give you an answer but if I’m being honest, I would be pulling it out of my ass. If I was really part of molding a solution to this then I would have to analyze the finances and operations for many business in many industries from many different areas. There isn’t an easy solution. But big picture is to help promote the small business owner running a “mom and pop shop or start up while holding the larger corporations who make millions and control a larger share of the marketplace to a higher responsibility.

Thanks for the questions


----------



## rightwinger (Nov 12, 2018)

boedicca said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > boedicca said:
> ...



Employers make a profit off of every employee

If an employer is unable to remain in business without paying substandard wages, he does not belong in business


----------



## Oddball (Nov 12, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> Its not ideal I would admit.
> 
> Our labor situation seems soo much more settled than during the Industrial Revolution.  How would it be different this time around?


Nothing is ideal...Perfection cannot be an option.

It would be different this time around because information is much more readily available, as is personal mobility....Far too many of the MW arguments center around the fallacious argument that people are in low-level entry-level jobs as a career, and are deserving of remuneration that should set them up to support a family.


----------



## OnePercenter (Nov 12, 2018)

SobieskiSavedEurope said:


> Small businesses shouldn't have a minimum wage, but government should pump it up to 15, while corporations should have a 15 hour wage because they can afford it.



Which small businesses can't afford a $15.00/hr minimum wage?


----------



## OnePercenter (Nov 12, 2018)

boedicca said:


> The obvious fix is to get rid of the minimum wage altogether.  Individuals should be free to set the the price for their labor.



That falls well within Putin's plan to annihilate western culture.


----------



## boedicca (Nov 12, 2018)

rightwinger said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...




There is no such thing as substandard wages. That is a Prog Concept used to pervert the marketplace for labor.


----------



## Oddball (Nov 12, 2018)

OnePercenter said:


> Which small businesses can't afford a $15.00/hr minimum wage?


Only the ones that were forced to close their doors in Seattle, when they foolishly mandated it.


----------



## SobieskiSavedEurope (Nov 12, 2018)

OnePercenter said:


> SobieskiSavedEurope said:
> 
> 
> > Small businesses shouldn't have a minimum wage, but government should pump it up to 15, while corporations should have a 15 hour wage because they can afford it.
> ...



The concept of a minimum wage hurts small businesses much more than large corporations


----------



## Toronado3800 (Nov 12, 2018)

bear513 said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > task0778 said:
> ...



I don't under


Oddball said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > Its not ideal I would admit.
> ...



I could care less about their careers.  That is a debate for another topic.  I just don't want to pay Congressmen to debate how much to raise it every 10 or 15 years, raise it, then it lowers itself, then raise it again. 

Minimum wage is there as a redistribution tool.  America has been down this road before when moving to the wild and braving the natives was better than conditions in the Industrial Revolution.  Myself, I don' think the human condition has changed that much.  When things get changed by more than 3% it disrupts the system.


----------



## OnePercenter (Nov 12, 2018)

toomuchtime_ said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > For the life of me I can't figure out why we don't just tie minimum wage to the Consumer Price Index or something.  Have it adjust yearly and leave it alone.
> ...



Eliminate the economic advantage of smart machines by eliminating tax incentives.


----------



## OnePercenter (Nov 12, 2018)

SobieskiSavedEurope said:


> OnePercenter said:
> 
> 
> > SobieskiSavedEurope said:
> ...



That doesn't answer the question.


----------



## SobieskiSavedEurope (Nov 12, 2018)

OnePercenter said:


> SobieskiSavedEurope said:
> 
> 
> > OnePercenter said:
> ...



30% of small business owners make no salary, but they owe 1/3rd more to workers???

Big Boss, Small Salary: Study Finds Most Business Owners Earn Less


----------



## SobieskiSavedEurope (Nov 12, 2018)

rightwinger said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



Your ideals on minimum wage will hurt small businesses, not big businesses.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Nov 12, 2018)

OnePercenter said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > Toronado3800 said:
> ...


There is no tax incentive to replace low skilled workers with smart machines.


----------



## Oddball (Nov 12, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> I could care less about their careers.  That is a debate for another topic.  I just don't want to pay Congressmen to debate how much to raise it every 10 or 15 years, raise it, then it lowers itself, then raise it again.
> 
> Minimum wage is there as a redistribution tool.  America has been down this road before when moving to the wild and braving the natives was better than conditions in the Industrial Revolution.  Myself, I don' think the human condition has changed that much.  When things get changed by more than 3% it disrupts the system.


Tell me how price fixing -the kind that would get me sued if it were done in the private sector- is supposed to help the situation.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 12, 2018)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > Toronado3800 said:
> ...


Eventually.  The Minimum wage is still the Minimum wage.  And, higher paid labor pays more in payroll tax.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 12, 2018)

Oddball said:


> OnePercenter said:
> 
> 
> > Which small businesses can't afford a $15.00/hr minimum wage?
> ...


nobody cried when corporate raiders were raiding pension funds.  

We have a First World economy.  Cheap labor is not an option.  We can't compete on Labor with the less developed world.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 12, 2018)

SobieskiSavedEurope said:


> OnePercenter said:
> 
> 
> > SobieskiSavedEurope said:
> ...


Capitalists should not look for cheap labor to make it in the First World.  It should be an economic paradigm.


----------



## Toronado3800 (Nov 12, 2018)

Oddball said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > I could care less about their careers.  That is a debate for another topic.  I just don't want to pay Congressmen to debate how much to raise it every 10 or 15 years, raise it, then it lowers itself, then raise it again.
> ...



You are not big government who says no one in your neighborhood can auction their property off as a nuclear waste dump. YOU have different rights than Uncle Sam. Sorry, conservatively its the way it is.

Minimum wage provides a bottom rung at the negotiation table between labor and management. No matter how badly some schmuck needs a job you must pay them a certain amount. Keeps the desperate from negotiating against eachother like cities do with NFL stadiums.


----------



## Oddball (Nov 12, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> You are not big government who says no one in your neighborhood can auction their property off as a nuclear waste dump. YOU have different rights than Uncle Sam. Sorry, conservatively its the way it is.


This is relevant how?



Toronado3800 said:


> Minimum wage provides a bottom rung at the negotiation table between labor and management. No matter how badly some schmuck needs a job you must pay them a certain amount. Keeps the desperate from negotiating against eachother like cities do with NFL stadiums.


I know that's the boilerplate rationale for price fixing labor  used  by the ruling class....The question that remains is how it's the role of The State to determine, especially when they have no proper frame of reference by which to set the price, and  when you recognize  that most of its thralls are in fact economic illiterates?


----------



## BuckToothMoron (Nov 12, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> For the life of me I can't figure out why we don't just tie minimum wage to the Consumer Price Index or something.  Have it adjust yearly and leave it alone.
> 
> We COULD attach it to Gross Domestic Product, give everyone "skin in the game" so to say.
> 
> ...



Or we could do away with the minimum wage and let people earn what they are worth.


----------



## Toronado3800 (Nov 12, 2018)

Oddball said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > You are not big government who says no one in your neighborhood can auction their property off as a nuclear waste dump. YOU have different rights than Uncle Sam. Sorry, conservatively its the way it is.
> ...



The first part is relevant because you did not see the difference between yourself and the government in comment #130.

Ah, back the the America sucks argument, Reagan sucks, our military sucks, we never got to the moon.  We didn't get the bomb first.  This ain't the place to live if you had a choice.  Then you'll call someone illiterate because they disagree with you.  So, this America of the 19th Century conquests and the New Deal which ended up as the reigning super power sucks and we should abandon what we did to get where we are is your idea because.....well, you called the folks who got us there economic illiterates.

Since you are stuck on the topic, I think an economy with no government intervention is the stuff of idealistic dreams just like a functioning socialist world.


----------



## Toronado3800 (Nov 12, 2018)

BuckToothMoron said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > For the life of me I can't figure out why we don't just tie minimum wage to the Consumer Price Index or something.  Have it adjust yearly and leave it alone.
> ...



That's a thought.  Its radical and not how we have gotten where we are, but its a thought.  I counter that the industrial revolution darn near led to world wide socialist revolutions.  It did lead to a lot of labor "excitement" I don't want the next generation to have to revisit.


----------



## BuckToothMoron (Nov 12, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> BuckToothMoron said:
> 
> 
> > Toronado3800 said:
> ...



Yeah, things have changed dramatically since the industrial revolution.


----------



## Picaro (Nov 12, 2018)

Employers will never ever  pay anybody 'what they're worth', they pay as little as they can, and don't have the least qualms about using govt. to drive down labor's bargaining power and keeping the power dynamics as far away from being 'equal' as they can. there is no 'free market checks and balances' in real life, not anywhere; only propagandists keep claiming there is.


----------



## EasyPeasy (Nov 12, 2018)

I didn't realize t he MW was broken.


----------



## Toronado3800 (Nov 13, 2018)

EasyPeasy said:


> I didn't realize t he MW was broken.



Its been a decade or so since it was raised and I seem to be stumbling into articles about raising it again is all. I'm looking to streamline the process.


----------



## Toronado3800 (Nov 13, 2018)

Oddball said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > Strawman?  Nope, post 135, you called the government whom you pointed out is us, a group of idiots.  Economic illiterates to be exact thus making the statement we/America sucks.  I pushed back.  Sorry if it offended you to have that challenged.
> ...



Just giving examples is all. After a dozen back n forths we maybe should agree to disagree so we can still join forces in the future against the Designated Hitter or whatever


----------



## Toronado3800 (Nov 13, 2018)

BuckToothMoron said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > BuckToothMoron said:
> ...



In healthcare yes, most other ways, I dunno. I have a longer term view on the human condition. Life just doesn't seem that different to me, just more refined versions of multi port injection is all. Maybe in a few years when we get self driving cars it will be like when you could hop on a cart and the horse would virtually keep you on the road.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 13, 2018)

BuckToothMoron said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > For the life of me I can't figure out why we don't just tie minimum wage to the Consumer Price Index or something.  Have it adjust yearly and leave it alone.
> ...


it is too inefficient for ninety-nine percent.  the Poor need an Institutional upward pressure on wages in our First World economy.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 13, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> BuckToothMoron said:
> 
> 
> > Toronado3800 said:
> ...


the power to provide for the general welfare is General, not Common.


----------



## Toronado3800 (Nov 13, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > BuckToothMoron said:
> ...



I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 13, 2018)

Picaro said:


> Employers will never ever  pay anybody 'what they're worth', they pay as little as they can, and don't have the least qualms about using govt. to drive down labor's bargaining power and keeping the power dynamics as far away from being 'equal' as they can. there is no 'free market checks and balances' in real life, not anywhere; only propagandists keep claiming there is.


That is the reason for a fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage and unemployment compensation at the equivalent to fourteen dollars an hour for simply being unemployed in our At-Will employment States.


----------



## Andylusion (Nov 13, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> EasyPeasy said:
> 
> 
> > I didn't realize t he MW was broken.
> ...



Do you not know what happened last time we raised the minimum wage?   You know, the great recession?

Why would you want to streamline something that wrecked the economy, and drove million into unemployment?   We just got back down to full employment, and you want to completely undo all of the recovery?   Why?


----------



## Toronado3800 (Nov 13, 2018)

Andylusion said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > EasyPeasy said:
> ...



IF you think the cause of the housing bubble was the hike I think you should be for my plan.

My idea is to prevent these knee jerk hikes and just make it a smooth percentage every year.  Whatever the GDP or CPI or board of directors pay or whatever goes up minimum wage goes up.  This way there are no surges based on the whims of whoever is in Congress trying to win reelection.


----------



## BuckToothMoron (Nov 13, 2018)

Andylusion said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > EasyPeasy said:
> ...



Really? I am no fan of the minimum wage, but to suggest that raising it created the last recession is at best a stretch, and more likely completely unfounded.


----------



## Andylusion (Nov 13, 2018)

BuckToothMoron said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Toronado3800 said:
> ...



Completely unfounded?   I think not.   Why was the vast majority of job losses, at the lowest end of the income ladder?
Shockingly the same end of the income ladder that would be most affected by a minimum wage increase?

And here's another aspect....   Everyone accepts that there was a real-estate price bubble.   But here's a question.... why did the bubble burst in 2007?    Why that specific year?   The bubble started in 1997.  Why didn't it burst during the short recession of 2000?   Or in 2004?   Or 2006?   Or why didn't it last until 2010?  Or 2015, and explode then?

Why did it blow up in 2007?    Why did the crash start on the exact year that we just happen to have a large increase in the minimum wage?

And one more point of interest.   We have recovery bill, after recovery bill, and the recession got worse and worse.   Bush passed recovery bills before leaving office.  Obama passed recovery bills after taking office.  Yet the unemployment rate increased year over year over year, until what year? 

What year did the unemployment rate start to level off and drop?   2010.   Fascinating.... that would be the very first year since 2007, that we didn't have an increase in the minimum wage.

Coincidence?   That many coincidences?  

And we could look at more local examples.  Take the Ohio unemployment rate, compared to the US unemployment rate.  In 2012 Ohio adopted a minimum wage indexed to inflation, and now our minimum wage is $8.30/hour.   Unsurprisingly our unemployment rate is 4.5%, while the US average is 4%.


----------



## task0778 (Nov 13, 2018)

Here's the deal, Toronado:   if I thought raising the M-Wage was a good idea and automatically keeping it close to the CPI or some other index or basket of indexes was a wise move, then I'd agree with you.  BUT - raising the M-Wage is in my opinion a really stupid idea that is a political device rather than an economic plus.   The truth is that the MW actually hurts more people and businesses than it helps, and so it is really dumb to automatically do things that are a bad idea.

This is an issue that does not belong at the federal level;  it should remain a local issue.  Businesses, cities, and states can do whatever they think is in their best interests and whatever that is should be up to them and NOT some a-hole in Washington that is trying to get re-elected in another state.


----------



## Natural Citizen (Nov 13, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> For the life of me I can't figure out why we don't just tie minimum wage to the Consumer Price Index or something.  Have it adjust yearly and leave it alone.
> 
> We COULD attach it to Gross Domestic Product, give everyone "skin in the game" so to say.
> 
> ...



Let me ask this. Who exactly is we? You mean government? Too much of that is what got us into the mess we're in now, why would we want more of it?

How about we end the Fed and give free-markets a chance to try to get it done for a change?


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 13, 2018)

Oddball said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > IF you think the cause of the housing bubble was the hike I think you should be for my plan.
> ...


Compensation for capitalism's natural rate of unemployment is automatic.


----------



## Picaro (Nov 13, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> Picaro said:
> 
> 
> > Employers will never ever  pay anybody 'what they're worth', they pay as little as they can, and don't have the least qualms about using govt. to drive down labor's bargaining power and keeping the power dynamics as far away from being 'equal' as they can. there is no 'free market checks and balances' in real life, not anywhere; only propagandists keep claiming there is.
> ...




Actually the reason is so many ass kissing suck ups work for close to what it should be they're all pissed off they won't look so 'skilled and speshul' if it got raised to reflect real inflation. They need somebody to look down on, and a lot of people making $7 an hour or so makes them feel like they're big time players or something, never mind they just look like petty venal brats.

Ship all of the high productivity jobs overseas or fill them with illiegals and green card rent a slave gimmicks, and you're left with a 'economy' where over 85% of 'new jobs' are part time low wage jobs, no matter how many people have college degrees n stuff. You have shit for disposable incomes, so they encourage large amounts of debt bubbles.


----------



## dblack (Nov 13, 2018)

DGS49 said:


> Dear Tornado Person:
> 
> No intelligent person wants to significantly increase the minimum wage.  Notice that when the Democrats had control of both house and the White House in Obama's first term, NOTHING was done on the minimum wage.
> 
> ...



Yep. Minimum wage is just populist nonsense.


----------



## Toronado3800 (Nov 13, 2018)

Oddball said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > IF you think the cause of the housing bubble was the hike I think you should be for my plan.
> ...



Make the end of your statement say ..."engaging in price fixing by setting a minimum wage" and I'll agree strongly.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 13, 2018)

Picaro said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > Picaro said:
> ...


We have a First World economy.  It is not Cheap.  No first world economy can rely on cheap labor to compete with the less developed world.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 13, 2018)

dblack said:


> DGS49 said:
> 
> 
> > Dear Tornado Person:
> ...


right wing ideology eschews applied capitalism at every market based opportunity.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 13, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> Oddball said:
> 
> 
> > Toronado3800 said:
> ...


Fixing Standards for a State or the Union expressed for the general government and implied for the several States. 

Mr. Feldman is simply going the wrong way on this one.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Nov 13, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> Picaro said:
> 
> 
> > danielpalos said:
> ...


That's why it's so important to keep the illegals from south of the border from entering the US.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 13, 2018)

toomuchtime_ said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > Picaro said:
> ...


With what.  Capitalism or socialism on a national basis?


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 14, 2018)

toomuchtime_ said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...


lol.  Nobody takes the right wing seriously about economics.  I am advocating for a fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage.  And, higher paid labor pays more in taxes and creates more in demand.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Nov 14, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > danielpalos said:
> ...


Not if they are replaced by a machine.  A minimum wage plus benefits plus unemployment insurance, plus the possibility of lawsuits from disgruntled workers provides incentives for employers to replace workers with machines.  There is a natural minimum wage that is set by the supply and demand for workers, and if an artificial minimum wage is imposed on employers, the demand for workers will decrease and people will lose their jobs.  In the age of AI, nearly all low skilled workers can be replaced by smart machines and as wages rise and the cost of these machines decreases most low skilled workers will be replaced by smart machines.  Imposing a minimum wage that is higher than market demand will only speed up this process.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Nov 14, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > danielpalos said:
> ...


Providing employers with yet another good reason for replacing low skilled worker with smart machines.


----------



## Andylusion (Nov 14, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Toronado3800 said:
> ...



So that is partially good......

Agreed, that it is true that avoiding massive hikes, would avoid sudden drastic crashes in the economy.  So that part is good.

However, the problem is, you still have not avoided the negative effects of the minimum wage.   You may have avoided sudden shocks to the system, but you haven't dealt with the fact that the minimum wage is universally and unavoidably a negative.

This is where you keep trying to find a way to consume poison so that it does the least damage.  But only true way to not have poison do damage, is to not take the poison.

You do realize that whole history of the minimum wage, was a history of trying to destroy people, in the name of racism.... right?  I'm assuming you know this, because this is well known historical fact.

Only in our modern times, have we been ignorant as a society, to think the minimum wage somehow is a benefit to people.  It isn't.  It never was.

The history of the minimum wage, in this country, was to push people out of the labor market.
These Chinese people were coming to the US, and they were unskilled, but they were willing to work for whatever they could earn.   The American Unions were getting ticked off because these Chinks were taking their jobs because they were willing to work for less money.
(to all you Chinese, I absolutely love Chinese people more than Americans usually. I am only using the slur to be accurate to the historical context)

So the American Unions started pushing to have a minimum wage.   They knew that if employers have to pay the same amount of money for a Chinese, as an American, the employer will default to the more skilled and educated American.   The reason employers hire less skilled or educated people, is because they can pay them lower wages.  If you eliminate that ability, you eliminate their employment.

The racists policy worked perfectly.  Chinese were drastically harmed by the policy.

By the way... nothing has changed.   I was watching a news video from Europe about recent moves to increase the mininmum wage.

This young reporter girl, was interviewing a man from a union.  It was either a Union in Germany, or a Union in Norway. I don't remember which.    But the idiot American reporter was standing there "So you want to create a minimum wage law, so that people can earn a good living?" (this was before Germany had a minimum wage).

The Union guy goes.... "No.  We want to keep these foreigners out of the work place".

This is one of the amazing things about Europe, is that they actually say what they believe, rather than putting on these lies that "It's so people have a better life"... no it is not.  It's to keep other people from having jobs.   That is the whole purpose.


----------



## task0778 (Nov 14, 2018)

Andy, I would argue that in this country the union people who are pushing very hard for the M-Wage are doing so because they want to prop up their own wages, which in many cases are tied to the M-Wage.   Increases in the M-Wage will automatically result in raises in union wages or renegotiations.


----------



## Tommy Tainant (Nov 14, 2018)

The minimu wage should be set at a level where the state does not need to subsidise the wages of those in work. Corporate welfare should not come out of taxpayers pockets.


----------



## Andylusion (Nov 14, 2018)

task0778 said:


> Andy, I would argue that in this country the union people who are pushing very hard for the M-Wage are doing so because they want to prop up their own wages, which in many cases are tied to the M-Wage.   Increases in the M-Wage will automatically result in raises in union wages or renegotiations.



Specifically public unions tend to have wages tied to the minimum wage.   In that case, I would agree.

However, non-government unions, tend to not have that connection.  Their primary purpose is to simply shut out non-union employees.   Any customer that is forced to pay the same wage for the same job, between a union contract and a non-union contract, will tend towards the Union.

The primary reason someone hires a non-union worker, is because it's cheaper.  The Unions know this.


----------



## Andylusion (Nov 14, 2018)

Tommy Tainant said:


> The minimu wage should be set at a level where the state does not need to subsidise the wages of those in work. Corporate welfare should not come out of taxpayers pockets.



First off, if you subsidize the employee.... that isn't corporate welfare.   The corporate was never obligated for anything, whether the tax payer is stupid enough to subsidize a someone or not.

Again, as has been proven MILLIONS OF TIMES.... if you raise the minimum wage, people lose jobs.

Walmart had an average of 330 people employed per store in 2006, when the minimum wage was $5.25.
By 2010, when the minimum wage was raised to $7.25, the average number of employees per store was down to 280.

50 less employed per store, is thousands on thousands of people unemployed.   Those unemployed were collecting far more benefits, than they were when they were employed.

Which is better?   Partial welfare while they are at least working a job?  Or full welfare, with them unemployed?

No one is subsidizing Walmart.    You are just flat out wrong.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 14, 2018)

Tommy Tainant said:


> The minimu wage should be set at a level where the state does not need to subsidise the wages of those in work. Corporate welfare should not come out of taxpayers pockets.



*The minimu wage should be set at a level where the state does not need to subsidise the wages of those in work.*

Why?

*Corporate welfare should not come out of taxpayers pockets.*

I agree. But you're talking about welfare going to individuals.


----------



## Tommy Tainant (Nov 14, 2018)

Andylusion said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> > The minimu wage should be set at a level where the state does not need to subsidise the wages of those in work. Corporate welfare should not come out of taxpayers pockets.
> ...



What you are parroting is the corporate mantra. They will never pay a decent wage if the taxpayer chips in to help. every time the mnimum wage is raised we hear the same stuff. But here is the thing. You have a minimum wage that has been raised in the past. And yet you have record employment.

So how does that work ?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 14, 2018)

Tommy Tainant said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Tommy Tainant said:
> ...



*You have a minimum wage that has been raised in the past. And yet you have record employment.

So how does that work ? *

We've raised it before, so why not raise it to $100/hour?

What could go wrong?


----------



## Tommy Tainant (Nov 14, 2018)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...


Fair and reasonable is the thing.


----------



## Andylusion (Nov 14, 2018)

Tommy Tainant said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Tommy Tainant said:
> ...



No, that's just a fact.  Everything I said, was documented fact.

They do pay a decent wage.

I've worked mom&pop shops, and I've worked at large corporations.

If these companies are so terrible, let's ban them, and see how much better off you are at tiny shops.

Tiny companies not only pay minimum wage, but they also have almost no benefits whatsoever.

The last company I applied to work for, openly said they no longer provided any health insurance at all.   This was after Obama Care was passed.  Before that, everyone offered health insurance.

And not just health insurance either.  I had a friend who worked for Walmart.  She got into Walmarts tuition reimbursement program, and ended up getting a degree in civil engineering, while working at Walmart.

If she had been working at some small business, she could not have done any of that.  

You people do not know what you are talking about.


----------



## dblack (Nov 14, 2018)

Tommy Tainant said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > Tommy Tainant said:
> ...



Maybe just everyone decide for themselves what is fair and reasonable?


----------



## PredFan (Nov 14, 2018)

The minimum wage should be eliminated.


----------



## Meister (Nov 14, 2018)

*Please remember this thread is in the CDZ, I'm not going to keep cleaning up *


----------



## Tommy Tainant (Nov 14, 2018)

Andylusion said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...


Your anecdotal testimony does not trump my point. You have record employment despite having a minimum wage. 

I would agree that Walmart are not all bad. They trade in the UK and I have friends that work for them. They do some good things but not many.

We had your argument in the UK. Minimum wage would cause unemployment. This didnt happen.

Zero hours contracts and the gig economy are the other things we have imported from the US. These are ticking bombs as folk are unable t save for pensions or get credit,buy houses and so on.

So the kid who works on zero hours and is financially not viable will eventually turn to the state to support him when he cant work.

Meanwhile his parasite employers count their billions. It is so very wrong.


----------



## Tommy Tainant (Nov 14, 2018)

dblack said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> > Toddsterpatriot said:
> ...


Well in nearly 40 years of employment my estimation of my worth and my employers estimation were often at variance. 
But at the very least I would expect a full time job to feed, clothe and house the worker.


----------



## Toronado3800 (Nov 14, 2018)

Andylusion said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...



I disagree but thank you for taking the time to type all that and in a pretty civil manner!


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 14, 2018)

Tommy Tainant said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > Tommy Tainant said:
> ...



$100/hour isn't fair and reasonable?


----------



## Tommy Tainant (Nov 14, 2018)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> > Toddsterpatriot said:
> ...


For what ?


----------



## Toronado3800 (Nov 14, 2018)

Tommy Tainant said:


> The minimu wage should be set at a level where the state does not need to subsidise the wages of those in work. Corporate welfare should not come out of taxpayers pockets.



I don't even think I'd go that far.  I think folks on the minimum wage should expect to have to live with other people and have a pretty tight budget.  Nothing wrong with renting a room in your buddy's place.

Now I also hope if I ever find myself groveling my way back to McDonalds and taking back ANY job they can offer me I can prove my worth and run the place or at least get raises in a month then eventually find something better, and the same for most other people there.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 14, 2018)

Tommy Tainant said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Tommy Tainant said:
> ...



*You have record employment despite having a minimum wage. *

And we'd have even more employment without a minimum wage.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 14, 2018)

Tommy Tainant said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > Tommy Tainant said:
> ...



For minimum wage work.


----------



## Tommy Tainant (Nov 14, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> > The minimu wage should be set at a level where the state does not need to subsidise the wages of those in work. Corporate welfare should not come out of taxpayers pockets.
> ...


I think most youngsters would expect to rough it. We all probably did it. But now we do it with government subsidies protecting the profits of the corporations.


----------



## Tommy Tainant (Nov 14, 2018)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> > Toddsterpatriot said:
> ...


Come back when you want to talk to adults.


----------



## dblack (Nov 14, 2018)

Tommy Tainant said:


> But at the very least I would expect a full time job to feed, clothe and house the worker.



Why should every job pay the amount that you think you need? Why can't other people take jobs that don't pay that much?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 14, 2018)

Tommy Tainant said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > Tommy Tainant said:
> ...



Let me know when they show up.


----------



## Tommy Tainant (Nov 14, 2018)

dblack said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> > But at the very least I would expect a full time job to feed, clothe and house the worker.
> ...


Its a race to the bottom. why do we need a minimum wage ? Because scumbag emplyers would pay nothing if they could.


----------



## dblack (Nov 14, 2018)

Tommy Tainant said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Tommy Tainant said:
> ...



So don't work for scumbag employers. Or do you think government should ensure you can get a job (that pays what you want) as well?


----------



## DOTR (Nov 14, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> For the life of me I can't figure out why we don't just tie minimum wage to the Consumer Price Index or something.  Have it adjust yearly and leave it alone.
> 
> We COULD attach it to Gross Domestic Product, give everyone "skin in the game" so to say.
> 
> ...



  I assume that, as a liberal, what is unsaid here is "federal minimum wage". States can mandate a minimum wage..but its subject to market forces therefore you MUST have it imposed federally where you can hide the damage it causes while transferring money to cover the destruction of capital.

  I am always going to say this...why dont you chip in for minimum wage? Nobody would object if you went into mcdonalds and paid all the workers a little extra.


----------



## Toronado3800 (Nov 14, 2018)

DOTR said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > For the life of me I can't figure out why we don't just tie minimum wage to the Consumer Price Index or something.  Have it adjust yearly and leave it alone.
> ...



If you wanna be snarky,

I do chip in for minimum wage.  You do to.  we all build things for billionaires and farmers all the time.


----------



## Slyhunter (Nov 14, 2018)

DGS49 said:


> Dear Tornado Person:
> 
> No intelligent person wants to significantly increase the minimum wage.  Notice that when the Democrats had control of both house and the White House in Obama's first term, NOTHING was done on the minimum wage.
> 
> ...


If someone is willing to work for a cot and some slop you think he should be allowed to do so. Someone so desperate to survive he's willing to become someone else's slave.
I say, HELL NO! Not in America.


----------



## Slyhunter (Nov 14, 2018)

I remember reading a book where we animated the dead and they work for free and the damage it caused society having to compete for jobs in such an environment.


----------



## Tommy Tainant (Nov 14, 2018)

dblack said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...


Its up to you what you do for a living. Government should ensure that "scumbag employers" dont take the piss.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 14, 2018)

Tommy Tainant said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Tommy Tainant said:
> ...



Something like 97% of US workers make more than the minimum wage.
Are all of them going to get cut to $2/hour if the minimum wage is repealed?


----------



## dblack (Nov 14, 2018)

The tech community has this really arrogant concept of the "useless class" that they use to characterize people who will be replaced by computers and automation. I don't buy it.


----------



## DOTR (Nov 14, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> DOTR said:
> 
> 
> > Toronado3800 said:
> ...



Then you wont be needing a law. Excuse me..a "federal" law.


----------



## Slyhunter (Nov 14, 2018)

Guarantee every American a Government job at the minimum wage. If employers want to compete against the Government they'll need better jobs that pay better compensation.

You thought we had a bad immigration problem before.


----------



## Toronado3800 (Nov 14, 2018)

DOTR said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > DOTR said:
> ...



Yeah, I want a Federal law or mandate all 50 states need to meet this minimum or whatever.  We're all in it together.   On a side note, I'm tired of Missouri and Virginia and all the little cities around here out competing each other in attempts to give tax breaks to billionaires.

I shall not hide that just like Abraham Lincoln I'm not much of a states rights guy.  That ship has sailed IMO.


----------



## Andylusion (Nov 14, 2018)

Tommy Tainant said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Tommy Tainant said:
> ...



Actually it does trump your point completely.

You claim businesses are not paying enough, and yet all the businesses you cite, pay on average, better wages than the alternatives.

*We had your argument in the UK. Minimum wage would cause unemployment. This didnt happen.*

Your unemployment rate is comparable to the US unemployment rate, because your real minimum wage isn't that much different than ours.

The only minimum wage that is higher, would be for those over the age of 25, which is about $10/hour.  But most people over the age of 25 are already earning more than $10/hour.
I was earning $10/hr when I was 20.   That's with zero education, and zero skills.

By age 25, everyone should be earning $10/hour or close to it.  That simply is not an impressive minimum wage.

What is more interesting, is that people under the age of 25, or people in apprenticeships, have a much lower minimum wage. $5.40 an hour, is not a high minimum wage.

So it doesn't surprise me that you have very little negative consequences.  It is the very people who have the lower minimum wage, that are most likely to be earning minimum wage.   

Now if you bumped your minimum wage up to say.... £12/hour ($15.50 USD), and then you had little to no negative consequence.... ok then you would have compelling evidence that I would consider.  In fact, if you imposed a £12/hour minimum wage across all ages, across all of the UK, and you did not have a recession.... I would change my mind on the minimum wage.  That would be clear evidence to me.

But guarantee you won't do that.  It would destroy the UK economy.

In fact, I think your minimum wage, actually encourages people to work in some ways.

The 25 and younger group, is the primary group that ends up unemployed in most countries.
By have a minimum wage that is lower for that specific groups, you actually cause employers to demand that group.  Everyone that gets older (I wager) is less desirable to employers.  Thus employers are specifically looking for younger workers, the very group most likely to be unemployed.

By having a minimum wage, that is lower for the group of people most likely to be unemployed, you directly encourage employment of that group.

But if you have all of these exemptions from the minimum wage, then it almost doesn't exist.


----------



## Andylusion (Nov 14, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> DOTR said:
> 
> 
> > Toronado3800 said:
> ...



This is what bothers me about your argument.   If my city, and the people of my city, decide they want to give a tax break to a company....

What business is that of yours?   Do I come and shove my hand up your butt hole, and interfere in your life?
Who told you, that what we do with our city, is any of your business?   Didn't your parents teach you, like mine taught me, to mind your own business?

There is only one person you need to worry about.  YOU.   You and your city.  If you have a problem with the city YOU live in, then YOU need to go to YOUR city hall meetings, and voice your opinions.   Here's the kicker about Democracy.  People have the right to make decisions that you don't like, and it's none of your business.

And by the way.... you say you don't like states rights.  So we can impose our views on you?   Federally mandated religion?  Purity laws?

States rights, is what prevents the Federal government from turning into a tyranny.  And while you may support Federal power when it is used for a purpose you agree with, just remember you don't know who will wield that power in the future.

It is always hilarious to me to see left-wing people complain about Trump using Executive Privileged.  But executive privilege expanded under Obama.... and not one left-winger anywhere complained about it.

You expand the power of the Feds over the States for all the things you want.... but some day it will be used for things you don't.


----------



## Andylusion (Nov 14, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> DOTR said:
> 
> 
> > Toronado3800 said:
> ...



Right.   But when you go to McDonalds, you can pay $20 for the big mac.   You can just pay $20, and say keep the change to the cashier.

Why don't you do that?  Do you not care about how little she's earning?

See the rest of us, see that as a fair wages for fair work.   Pressing a picture button on a screen, and giving change, is not a job worth $20 an hour.

I don't want to pay more money for that.   And if the cost is too high, I'll stop going there.   I've said this before, I don't go to Chipotle anymore, because the cost is too high.   Before the minimum wage went up, you could get a burrito for $5.   That was good deal.  Now it's almost $8 for a burrito.

If enough people start believing the cost isn't worth the labor, then the store closes and all those people are unemployed.

But if you want to pay more for everything, knock yourself out.  You can pay more money on your own, without harming the rest of us.


----------



## Andylusion (Nov 14, 2018)

Tommy Tainant said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > Tommy Tainant said:
> ...



So you are wrong.  And you keep saying wrong things, but it doesn't make them right.  No one is subsidizing or protecting the profits of the corporations.
You are just spouting disproved talking points of socialists, which have destroyed every country they have ever controlled.


----------



## Andylusion (Nov 14, 2018)

Tommy Tainant said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > Tommy Tainant said:
> ...



Come back when you want to talk with reality, and facts.


----------



## Andylusion (Nov 14, 2018)

Tommy Tainant said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Tommy Tainant said:
> ...



Tommy, stop being an idiot.

*Because scumbag emplyers would pay nothing if they could
*
There is no minimum wage in Norway, and most nordic countries.
Do employers pay nothing, because they can?

Germany up until 2015, had no minimum wage.  Was every employer paying nothing because they can?

By your idiotic logic, no one anywhere would ever earn more than the minimum wage.   My employer is not required to pay me more than $8.30/hour.  Yet I earn almost double that.  How did that happen Tommy?

You are so full of absolute crap.  Dumbest Brit I've ever met.


----------



## dblack (Nov 14, 2018)

I think it's fair to point out the downward pressure on wages caused by the welfare state. People on assistance only need to make up the difference. And they can use their ability to work for less to compete more effectively in the job market. It's a real problem. The people it really screws are the low-skilled workers who _aren't_ on the dole. 

So, to remedy the damage the welfare state does to the job market, we try to force employers to pay what they would have had to pay if not for the welfare. But that approach is fundamentally flawed because the law doesn't actually force them to pay their employees more. They can always opt to not pay them anything - lay them off. 

It's not hard to understand how this works. If a business allocates $60/hr for its total labor costs, and currently employs six people at $10/hr, what will happen if a minimum wage law "forces" the business to pay employees $15/hr? Their total labor costs have jumped 50%. The business plan will have to change. They'll need to raise prices, reduce profits, or lay off the lowest performing employees. It would likely be a mix of the three. So in that scenario, it's likely one employee would be let go, and the others expected to work a bit harder for their 'raise'.


----------



## dblack (Nov 14, 2018)

Andylusion said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



It's same mindset that tells us people would wallow in their own feces and die without government mandates to do otherwise.


----------



## Oddball (Nov 14, 2018)

dblack said:


> I think it's fair to point out the downward pressure on wages caused by the welfare state. People on assistance only need to make up the difference. And they can use their ability to work for less to compete more effectively in the job market. It's a real problem. The people it really screws are the low-skilled workers who _aren't_ on the dole.
> 
> So, to remedy the damage the welfare state does to the job market, we try to force employers to pay what they would have had to pay if not for the welfare. But that approach is fundamentally flawed because the law doesn't actually force them to pay their employees more. They can always opt to not pay them anything - lay them off.
> 
> It's not hard to understand how this works. If a business allocates $60/hr for its total labor costs, and currently employs six people at $10/hr, what will happen if a minimum wage law "forces" the business to pay employees $15/hr? Their total labor costs have jumped 50%. The business plan will have to change. They'll need to raise prices, reduce profits, or lay off the lowest performing employees. It would likely be a mix of the three. So in that scenario, it's likely one employee would be let go, and the others expected to work a bit harder for their 'raise'.


IOW, TANSTAFL.


----------



## DOTR (Nov 14, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> I shall not hide that just like Abraham Lincoln I'm not much of a states rights guy.  That ship has sailed IMO.



   Thats because Federalism and Freedom go together. The Swiss..the Canadians..America..Australia.. recognized that limited and decentralized government is the most benign government.
  Federalism is self rule and self restraint. Centralism is tyranny and empire and control. In our country and Constitution the Founders feared the central government so much they de facto banned all national elections and made every election a state issue. Our Constitution envisions the states as the check on a runaway central government.
   We are ruled by unelected judges now of course..but still state elections were the original idea.
  And as evidence I point out the constant push towards centralization by liberals as they impose fiat rule over Americans. You yourself have as much as admitted  above that you cant as easily impose your pet economic controls over us when you are faced with local governments.

  The communists eliminated the "lander" wherever they took power in Europe. Just erased them. Communists prefer "administrative districts" answerable to centralized authority.  But the communists certainly didnt invent the idea...previously the Nazis had abolished the German states in 1933, in favor of "gaue" (administrative district), as they consolidated power from the German States to the central Nazi Government in a process known as Gleichschaltung

  When the people of East Germany threw off the communists they first reconstituted their states as necessary bulwarks of freedom and then these new states joined West Germany individually.


----------



## Andylusion (Nov 14, 2018)

dblack said:


> I think it's fair to point out the downward pressure on wages caused by the welfare state. People on assistance only need to make up the difference. And they can use their ability to work for less to compete more effectively in the job market. It's a real problem. The people it really screws are the low-skilled workers who _aren't_ on the dole.
> 
> So, to remedy the damage the welfare state does to the job market, we try to force employers to pay what they would have had to pay if not for the welfare. But that approach is fundamentally flawed because the law doesn't actually force them to pay their employees more. They can always opt to not pay them anything - lay them off.
> 
> It's not hard to understand how this works. If a business allocates $60/hr for its total labor costs, and currently employs six people at $10/hr, what will happen if a minimum wage law "forces" the business to pay employees $15/hr? Their total labor costs have jumped 50%. The business plan will have to change. They'll need to raise prices, reduce profits, or lay off the lowest performing employees. It would likely be a mix of the three. So in that scenario, it's likely one employee would be let go, and the others expected to work a bit harder for their 'raise'.



Well my first hand experience was....

As I have said dozens of times, I worked at a McDonald's when a minimum wage hike hit.

The first thing they did, was lay off 3 part time people.   No one was hired in their place.  Instead we simply had to do their duties along with our original position.

We had for example, and old retired guy.  He came in 4 hours a day.   So he would come in, empty all the trash cans around the store, including the ones outside, and then he would clean those plastic trays, and oven trays.

So with him gone, we emptied the trash ourselves (when we could between customers), and often that meant the trash cans outside were not emptied.   And we would have to 'run' from the drive through window cashier position, to the back and clean trays, between customers.

You can tell if the store you are at, does not have part time people to do this, if the drive through window is empty when you pull up, and then you see a guy walk over with wet hands.  He was likely cleaning trays between customers, because they no longer have someone to do that specific task anymore.

Then after that, the second thing they did was reduce portion sizes.   So the size of the drinks, and the size of the fries, will get smaller.

This happened over a period of months.   But the way I found out about it, was that the drink and fry cups, physically didn't fit the dispensers anymore.  They were too small, and fell through the dispenser.

And then last, is they start slowly raising prices.

The idea that they are going to simply earn less profit, is just not all that likely.

The cost to open a McDonald's is around $2.2 Million dollars.    The owner of that store, himself, has put in upwards of a Million dollars.

People that think that an owner or a investor in a McDonald's, is just going to "make do" with a sub-six-figure income... they are crazy.

If I put $1,000,000 into the stock market, I can make $80,000 a year just from the dividends.  And that is with low risk, basic investing.   I can easily make $100,000 a year, with aggressive investing in the stock market.

Why would I risk investing $1 Million dollars in a store, and risk losing that money if the store fails, in order to make only $100,000 a year or less?   That would be stupid of me.

If you think anyone is going to invest $2 Million dollars to open a store, and not make a big freaking income from it... you are nutz.

Better to close the store, lay everyone off, sell all the equipment, and the property, get as much money back as you can, and invest in the stock market.

This idea the left-wing puts out in simple minded fools mouths, that owners and CEO will be willing to be happy with $100,000 a year, so their employees who risk nothing, can make $50,000 a year flipping burgers.... is just insane.  Total stupidity.  And if you simply put yourself in the owners shoes, no one would ever accept "you will just make do with less profits" crap.   None of these people supporting this idea, would run a store on those terms.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 15, 2018)

dblack said:


> The tech community has this really arrogant concept of the "useless class" that they use to characterize people who will be replaced by computers and automation. I don't buy it.


Why are we paying Taxes if not for Government to solve all problems?  

Unemployment compensation for Capitalism's natural rate of unemployment and a fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage is how simple it should be for even potential Labor, to stay current in our markets.


----------



## OnePercenter (Nov 15, 2018)

SobieskiSavedEurope said:


> OnePercenter said:
> 
> 
> > SobieskiSavedEurope said:
> ...



Again; Which small businesses can't afford a $15.00/hr minimum wage?

Answer the question or admit you're wrong.


----------



## Wyatt earp (Nov 15, 2018)

Tommy Tainant said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > Tommy Tainant said:
> ...




That's a livable wage 


.


----------



## Wyatt earp (Nov 15, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> DOTR said:
> 
> 
> > Toronado3800 said:
> ...




I knew you would admit it sooner or later.


.


----------



## OnePercenter (Nov 15, 2018)

toomuchtime_ said:


> OnePercenter said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...



Tax incentives for business topped $80B this year mostly for capital investment.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Nov 15, 2018)

OnePercenter said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > OnePercenter said:
> ...


Are you trying to sound stupid?


----------



## Toronado3800 (Nov 16, 2018)

bear513 said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > DOTR said:
> ...



Yup. Loncoln and I, me and Lincoln. We're Americans, not Georgians or Mainans or whatever. 

If I ever hid that my apologies.

Any progress yet concerning if minimum wage increases raise inflation by raising wages or if minimum wage increases lower wages?

BTW, if incomes rise also reasonable inflation helps hide fixed long term borrowing costs. That type of thing fixes or hides our real estate demand problems. So I'm not concerned if wages and inflation rise together.


----------



## Manonthestreet (Nov 16, 2018)

Once more I ask, where are the unions. Daughters friends boyfriend is an EMT, COULDN'T get an exact figure on his hrly wage but by the hours he's working and what he's bringing home it's sounds like it's somewhere around 17 to 18. ...and he belongs to a union. Told her they should walk off like nurses do. That's a crime.


----------



## DOTR (Nov 16, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> bear513 said:
> 
> 
> > Toronado3800 said:
> ...



  There is no such thing as "reasonable inflation". All inflation is a government tax on families. Its 2% a year lost to government overspending if their goals are met.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 16, 2018)

A fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage and unemployment compensation for simply being unemployed solves simple poverty and produces a positive multiplier effect upon any economy.  We could be lower our income tax burden by simplifying Government.


----------



## Wyatt earp (Nov 16, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> bear513 said:
> 
> 
> > Toronado3800 said:
> ...



No you're against freedom..you want everything to be the same across America.. (as Long as you get to decide)


.


----------



## DOTR (Nov 16, 2018)

bear513 said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > bear513 said:
> ...



  Exactly! Political diversity scares them. And he admitted in a previous post that since they find it more difficult to impose their wills on states they prefer to do it it federally.


----------



## Wyatt earp (Nov 16, 2018)

DOTR said:


> bear513 said:
> 
> 
> > Toronado3800 said:
> ...




That's  why they want to get rid of the EC is to bully smaller states isn't that right
*Pogo*


----------



## DOTR (Nov 16, 2018)

bear513 said:


> DOTR said:
> 
> 
> > bear513 said:
> ...




Wanna be tyrants always favor centralization. Since when did authoritarians ever allow local government accountable to the people rather than themselves? Its is a sign of freedom where people are trusted to govern themselves.

  Can you imagine Stalin or Hitler saying "its ok..this particular area of power doesn't belong to me"?


----------



## Wyatt earp (Nov 16, 2018)

DOTR said:


> bear513 said:
> 
> 
> > DOTR said:
> ...




Damn...


I know I have been reading this attitude since before the internet long before, someone is pissed because a county over lured a factory , to them it's not fair they could do it with tax breaks..

They wanted the money and dictate the rules.


.


----------



## Toronado3800 (Nov 16, 2018)

bear513 said:


> DOTR said:
> 
> 
> > bear513 said:
> ...


Ey, I missed your answer about the effects of minimum wage again? 

But yeah, have fun you tyrant wanting big government to pick the economic winners who get tax breaks for being more equal


----------



## Wyatt earp (Nov 16, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> bear513 said:
> 
> 
> > DOTR said:
> ...



Don't give me any of that you want your pie and eat it too .


You don't want the county down the road to compete against you.


.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 17, 2018)

DOTR said:


> bear513 said:
> 
> 
> > DOTR said:
> ...


what is your point?  we have a federal form of Government, regardless.


----------



## DOTR (Nov 17, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> DOTR said:
> 
> 
> > bear513 said:
> ...



   Hmmm...I wonder....do you even know what "a federal form of government" is?


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 17, 2018)

DOTR said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > DOTR said:
> ...


i know right wing rhetoric when i hear it.


----------



## DOTR (Nov 17, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> i know right wing rhetoric when i hear it.



  But you are too uneducated to know what you mean by "federal form of government". Just to be brief..by using the term you made the opposite point you thought you were making 

  Prime democrat voter here folks. Too ignorant to know what form his government takes...but always on the lookout for those "rightwingers". Should he even be allowed to vote?


----------



## Toronado3800 (Nov 18, 2018)

DOTR said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > i know right wing rhetoric when i hear it.
> ...



Wow. Voting and non voting classes of citizens.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 18, 2018)

DOTR said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > i know right wing rhetoric when i hear it.
> ...


only the clueless and the Causeless, say that.


----------



## OnePercenter (Nov 19, 2018)

toomuchtime_ said:


> OnePercenter said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...



Then post the number.


----------



## dblack (Nov 19, 2018)

OnePercenter said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > OnePercenter said:
> ...



We need to ban the use of tax incentives. The Constitution grants the taxation power to government to raise revenue for its legitimate functions. It was never meant to be a tool for manipulating society.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Nov 19, 2018)

OnePercenter said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > OnePercenter said:
> ...


There is no clear relationship between the alleged $80 billion and replacing low skilled workers with smart machines, however, there is a clear relationship between a too high minimum wage and replacing workers with smart machines.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Nov 19, 2018)

dblack said:


> OnePercenter said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...


Then presumably you would be opposed to the government trying to manipulate society by imposing a minimum wage, since it is clear the framers of the Constitution had nothing of this sort in mind.


----------



## dblack (Nov 19, 2018)

toomuchtime_ said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > OnePercenter said:
> ...


Yep.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Nov 19, 2018)

dblack said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...


So you're opposed to the minimum wage?


----------



## dblack (Nov 19, 2018)

toomuchtime_ said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...


Yes. What are you getting at?


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Nov 19, 2018)

dblack said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...


I'm not getting at anything.  I was just surprised to learn you are opposed to the minimum wage.


----------



## dblack (Nov 19, 2018)

toomuchtime_ said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...


Hmm... Ok. Why's that?


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Nov 19, 2018)

dblack said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...


Because you seemed to be  critical of my explanations of why a minimum wage would have either no effect or a negative effect on the welfare of the very people it is supposed to help.


----------



## dblack (Nov 19, 2018)

toomuchtime_ said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...


Maybe you mixed me up with someone else. Minimum wage laws are populist nonsense in my book.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Nov 19, 2018)

dblack said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...


I suppose I must have confused your posts with some one else's.  Apologies.


----------



## Denizen (Nov 19, 2018)

I have cracked it!

This is the optimum solution.

Raise the minimum wage to $200 an hour and give all people on minimum wage a free BMW.

This will be an incredible boost to the economy.

Please don't thank me.


----------



## dblack (Nov 19, 2018)

Denizen said:


> I have cracked it!
> 
> This is the optimum solution.
> 
> ...



It's funny because this is really the logic behind minimum wage laws.


----------



## Slyhunter (Nov 20, 2018)

dblack said:


> Denizen said:
> 
> 
> > I have cracked it!
> ...


No. The Logic is that the minimum someone should earn who work a job is enough to pay the rent and buy some food ie a living wage. Not a living wage for a family of 5 but a living wage for one. Anything less is slave wages. And we don't do Slavery in America. Personally I believe that wage would be $10 an hour for 40 hours in the State of Florida. More elsewhere where the rents are higher.

Having a job and still making so little you qualify for Government handouts defeats the purpose of having a job.

If all you can get is a minimum wage job then you shouldn't have kids. If you can't feed yourself you shouldn't get pregnant. If you can't afford birth control you shouldn't have sex.


----------



## dblack (Nov 20, 2018)

Slyhunter said:


> The Logic is that the minimum someone should earn who work a job is enough to pay the rent and buy some food ie a living wage.


If someone else wants to take a job that doesn't provide them with the lifestyle _you_ prefer - why should it be any of your business? Why do you think you have a right, via government or otherwise, to tell other people what jobs they can and can't take? 



> Having a job and still making so little you qualify for Government handouts defeats the purpose of having a job.



People have different purposes for having a job. Why do you feel justified in telling them what that purpose must be? Regardless, the handouts thing _is_ a problem. The welfare state has the unfortunate side-effect of driving wages down - people don't need to make as much at a job if they're getting income from other sources. But the way to deal with problems caused by welfare is to change the way we do welfare, not dictate wages via government.



> If all you can get is a minimum wage job then you shouldn't have kids. If you can't feed yourself you shouldn't get pregnant. If you can't afford birth control you shouldn't have sex.



You gotta lotta shoulds and shouldn'ts. Ever consider minding your own business?


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 20, 2018)

dblack said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...


or, manipulate society with useless crime, drug, and terror wars the right wing refuses to pay for.


----------



## OnePercenter (Nov 21, 2018)

toomuchtime_ said:


> OnePercenter said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...



Which is why you eliminate all business deductions except employee expenses.


----------



## OnePercenter (Nov 21, 2018)

dblack said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



So you are pro crony capitalism?


----------



## OnePercenter (Nov 21, 2018)

dblack said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



Since 60% of the US economy is based on middle class (now poor with credit) spending, don't minimum wage laws promote the economy?


----------



## OnePercenter (Nov 21, 2018)

dblack said:


> Denizen said:
> 
> 
> > I have cracked it!
> ...



Or is it an effort to protect employees from predator employers.


----------



## MisterBeale (Nov 21, 2018)

DGS49 said:


> Dear Tornado Person:
> 
> No intelligent person wants to significantly increase the minimum wage.  Notice that when the Democrats had control of both house and the White House in Obama's first term, NOTHING was done on the minimum wage.
> 
> ...



Such a fine response.

Such a waste of time though. . .


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 21, 2018)

nobody takes the right wing seriously about economics.  vacuums of special pleading is all they know.


----------



## OnePercenter (Nov 21, 2018)

MisterBeale said:


> DGS49 said:
> 
> 
> > Dear Tornado Person:
> ...



Except for the fact we were coming off of the worst economic crash in history caused by BushCo and Corporate America,


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 21, 2018)

OnePercenter said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > OnePercenter said:
> ...



*Which is why you eliminate all business deductions except employee expenses.*

Right, because deducting "cost-of-goods-sold" is a loophole. LOL!


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 21, 2018)

OnePercenter said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...



*Since 60% of the US economy is based on middle class (now poor with credit) spending*

How much of the Greek economy is based on consumer spending?


----------



## dblack (Nov 21, 2018)

OnePercenter said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...



I don't see how. But I don't think it's government's job to "promote the economy", so the argument is moot in my book.


----------



## dblack (Nov 21, 2018)

OnePercenter said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Denizen said:
> ...



What do you mean by "predator employers"? If they're deceiving employees, or coercing them - sure, lock 'em up. But if their only "crime" is paying someone less that what you think is appropriate, that's not preying on anyone. It's just not abiding by your druthers. Too bad.


----------



## dblack (Nov 21, 2018)

OnePercenter said:


> So you are pro crony capitalism?



Have you stopped beating your wife?


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 22, 2018)

dblack said:


> OnePercenter said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...


Both terms are used for the general welfare, to promote and to provide.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 22, 2018)

dblack said:


> OnePercenter said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...


Social services cost around fourteen dollars an hour by comparison and contrast.  There is no reason to subsidize Capitalists with Cheap labor in a First World economy.


----------



## Paulie (Nov 22, 2018)

The CPI doesn't just increase, so what happens when the CPI decreases? Minimum wage decreases proportionally because goods and services are now costing less?


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 23, 2018)

Paulie said:


> The CPI doesn't just increase, so what happens when the CPI decreases? Minimum wage decreases proportionally because goods and services are now costing less?


It isn't adjusted every day.


----------



## OnePercenter (Nov 24, 2018)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> OnePercenter said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...



It is. Why should a business be able to deduct the cost of doing business when an employee can't?


----------



## OnePercenter (Nov 24, 2018)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> OnePercenter said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



Focus! This isn't Greece!


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 24, 2018)

OnePercenter said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > OnePercenter said:
> ...



*It is. Why should a business be able to deduct the cost of doing business*

Because businesses are taxed on profit, not revenue.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 24, 2018)

OnePercenter said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > OnePercenter said:
> ...



Is it a higher percentage than the US? Focus!


----------



## OnePercenter (Nov 24, 2018)

dblack said:


> OnePercenter said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



One sided government regulation made me a multi-millionaire, and has made a record number of Americans millionaires in 2017-2018. The middle class (now poor with credit), not so much. Raising the minimum wage would make a more level field.


----------



## OnePercenter (Nov 24, 2018)

dblack said:


> OnePercenter said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



A company that ruthlessly exploits their employees by not paying a living wage.


----------



## OnePercenter (Nov 24, 2018)

Paulie said:


> The CPI doesn't just increase, so what happens when the CPI decreases? Minimum wage decreases proportionally because goods and services are now costing less?



What color is the sky on your world?


----------



## OnePercenter (Nov 24, 2018)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> OnePercenter said:
> 
> 
> > Toddsterpatriot said:
> ...



Employees aren't allowed to deduct the cost of being employed.


----------



## OnePercenter (Nov 24, 2018)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> OnePercenter said:
> 
> 
> > Toddsterpatriot said:
> ...



It doesn't matter. This isn't Greece. 

You hate the American Worker.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 24, 2018)

OnePercenter said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > OnePercenter said:
> ...



*It doesn't matter. This isn't Greece. *

If the percentage matters for the US, it matters for Greece.


----------



## dblack (Nov 24, 2018)

OnePercenter said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > OnePercenter said:
> ...



LOL - you flat out admit the corruption the regulatory state and then propose more of it. Good call.


----------



## Wyatt earp (Nov 24, 2018)

OnePercenter said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > OnePercenter said:
> ...




Yea from 3% making minimum wage to 40% plus making minimum wage..



Those 38% are going to be thrilled they went backwards .


----------



## Wyatt earp (Nov 24, 2018)

OnePercenter said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > OnePercenter said:
> ...




No you hate competition.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 25, 2018)

bear513 said:


> OnePercenter said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...


we want an institutional upward pressure on wages.


----------



## Wyatt earp (Nov 25, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> bear513 said:
> 
> 
> > OnePercenter said:
> ...




Hat head I can't take you serious till you comb your hair


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 25, 2018)

bear513 said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > bear513 said:
> ...


Thank you for Your support of this left wing policy by having nothing but fallacy instead of a valid argument for rebuttal.


----------



## Wyatt earp (Nov 25, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> bear513 said:
> 
> 
> > danielpalos said:
> ...




Dude I can't take you serious bro comb your hair take a shower..

Then post


Please?


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 25, 2018)

bear513 said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > bear513 said:
> ...


You have to Be sincere to establish Confidence in your Sincerity.


----------



## Paulie (Nov 26, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> Paulie said:
> 
> 
> > The CPI doesn't just increase, so what happens when the CPI decreases? Minimum wage decreases proportionally because goods and services are now costing less?
> ...


That's not the point


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 26, 2018)

Paulie said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > Paulie said:
> ...


when has deflation been a problem?


----------



## Paulie (Nov 26, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> Paulie said:
> 
> 
> > danielpalos said:
> ...


I don't think it is at all, as a saver. But deflation of wages is never going to go over well even if prices in the market are decreasing


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 26, 2018)

Paulie said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > Paulie said:
> ...


We could eliminate a Statutory minimum wage with unemployment compensation at fourteen dollar an hour equivalent.  Labor should self-select.


----------



## hadit (Nov 26, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> Paulie said:
> 
> 
> > danielpalos said:
> ...



Are you still going on about that, pretending you're not demanding welfare so you don't have to work?


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 26, 2018)

hadit said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > Paulie said:
> ...


not for freedom or liberty?


----------



## hadit (Nov 26, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > danielpalos said:
> ...



You do know, don't you, that incessantly beating the same arythmic beats on the same drum doesn't make your case any stronger?


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 26, 2018)

hadit said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > hadit said:
> ...


we are Men.  Practice makes Perfect is practically a religion, with us. 

How many people are on the street who should not be?

Unemployment compensation for simply being unemployed means that many more consumers for those goods and services.  It results in More rather than Less economic activity; and, that means more potential for a positive multiplier effect.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 26, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > danielpalos said:
> ...



Taxing someone productive to give money to the unproductive results in less production, not more.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 26, 2018)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > hadit said:
> ...


Capitalism has a natural rate of unemployment.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 26, 2018)

Bum.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 26, 2018)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Bum.


men have arguments; even women can gossip.


----------



## candycorn (Nov 26, 2018)

Every time the federal minimum wage is brought up, we’re told that business would lay off their workforce!!!  It never happens.  

Don’t let facts get in the way of a good story.  

Any raise should be in announced increments well in advance.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 26, 2018)

candycorn said:


> Every time the federal minimum wage is brought up, we’re told that business would lay off their workforce!!!  It never happens.
> 
> Don’t let facts get in the way of a good story.
> 
> Any raise should be in announced increments well in advance.


a simple cost of living adjustment, that is all.


----------



## Wyatt earp (Nov 26, 2018)

candycorn said:


> Every time the federal minimum wage is brought up, we’re told that business would lay off their workforce!!!  It never happens.
> 
> Don’t let facts get in the way of a good story.
> 
> Any raise should be in announced increments well in advance.




I bet you just can't wait to make minimum wage, huh?



.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 26, 2018)

bear513 said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > Every time the federal minimum wage is brought up, we’re told that business would lay off their workforce!!!  It never happens.
> ...


i bet you can't wait to have more than fallacy.


----------



## Wyatt earp (Nov 26, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> bear513 said:
> 
> 
> > candycorn said:
> ...




^ you dying to make the $15 dollar minimum wage , $7.25 an hour burger flipper boi..




.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 26, 2018)

bear513 said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > bear513 said:
> ...


i prefer a job that comes with a laptop.


----------



## Wyatt earp (Nov 26, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> bear513 said:
> 
> 
> > danielpalos said:
> ...




I prefer a job that comes with a lapdance as a benefit..


.


----------



## Slyhunter (Nov 26, 2018)

bear513 said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > bear513 said:
> ...


I'll take 15 I only make 10.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 26, 2018)

Slyhunter said:


> bear513 said:
> 
> 
> > danielpalos said:
> ...


Labor needs to be able to afford our First World economy.


----------



## Wyatt earp (Nov 26, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> Slyhunter said:
> 
> 
> > bear513 said:
> ...


----------



## candycorn (Nov 26, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> Slyhunter said:
> 
> 
> > bear513 said:
> ...



Back when I was in the disaster response game, we would have these conventions from time to time where you’d go and share ideas and techniques blah blah blah.  The group from the Bay Area had an advertising slogan about their official response posture; “The First 72 Are On You” meaning that you needed to have a 3 day supply of food, water, medicine, clothing…  The reason given was that the Bay Area is so expensive that few first responders can afford to live there, the land is so expensive that storing enough supplies for 200,000 people is not cost effective (and would probably be over-run well before by homeless), and that if they did pre-position them, nobody would be there to effectively dispense the goodies.


----------



## Wyatt earp (Nov 26, 2018)

Slyhunter said:


> bear513 said:
> 
> 
> > danielpalos said:
> ...




Exactly, you want 30 million plus more workers to suffer like you..


.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 26, 2018)

candycorn said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > Slyhunter said:
> ...


Would we have this problem if Persons could simply apply for unemployment compensation for merely being unemployed in our at-will employment States?


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 26, 2018)

bear513 said:


> Slyhunter said:
> 
> 
> > bear513 said:
> ...


more people will be able to afford more options for housing.


----------



## Wyatt earp (Nov 26, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > danielpalos said:
> ...


----------



## Wyatt earp (Nov 26, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> bear513 said:
> 
> 
> > Slyhunter said:
> ...




How ? What do you think the maintenance guys wages won't go up also?


.


----------



## dblack (Nov 26, 2018)

candycorn said:


> Every time the federal minimum wage is brought up, we’re told that business would lay off their workforce!!!  It never happens.



I thought minimum wage (adjusted for inflation) has been going down for decades. Do you have any clear data supporting your claim?

Also, do you think minimum wage increases could _ever _cause layoffs, or inflation? If so, at what point would you say that minimum wage is too high? If not, why not raise it to the point where we all rich?


----------



## candycorn (Nov 26, 2018)

dblack said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > Every time the federal minimum wage is brought up, we’re told that business would lay off their workforce!!!  It never happens.
> ...



Spending power of what you bring home has been going down for decades.  Meaning a dollar worth of income brought X in 1990 and buys less today.  

Layoffs?  Yes.  Inflation?  Not likely.  Inflation is caused by supply and demand differences.  Increased costs to producers can cause inflation but usually price increases solve the issue.  Since all companies suffer/benefit from the FMW increases…price adjustments are not crippling to any one business.  In fact what it does do is increase opportunities for new businesses since they are usually more lean and have less legacy costs due to out dated equipment that needs refurbishment, retirement costs, have flatter management structures, etc…  

Raise it to the point where “we all rich”?  Don’t be stupid.


----------



## dblack (Nov 26, 2018)

candycorn said:


> Raise it to the point where “we all rich”?  Don’t be stupid.



What's stupid about that?


----------



## candycorn (Nov 26, 2018)

dblack said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > Raise it to the point where “we all rich”?  Don’t be stupid.
> ...



First thing “we all rich”. Second thing, common sense.


----------



## dblack (Nov 26, 2018)

candycorn said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > candycorn said:
> ...


Yeah? Where does the common sense kick in? At what point would minimum wage be too high? How would you know?


----------



## candycorn (Nov 26, 2018)

dblack said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



Probably well before a minimum wage earner becomes rich.


----------



## dblack (Nov 26, 2018)

candycorn said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > candycorn said:
> ...


 
Why?


----------



## candycorn (Nov 26, 2018)

dblack said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...


Why not?


----------



## dblack (Nov 26, 2018)

candycorn said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > candycorn said:
> ...


Because, if I thought passing a law could make everyone rich, I'd sure as hell support it. Why wouldn't you?


----------



## hadit (Nov 26, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > danielpalos said:
> ...



Translation: you want to be paid for not working. That's your bottom line and what your otherwise meaningless phrases really mean.


----------



## hadit (Nov 26, 2018)

dblack said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



Everyone having a million dollars is no different from no one having a million dollars. Just as in thermodynamics, it is imbalance that makes money flow.


----------



## candycorn (Nov 26, 2018)

dblack said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



Well, you thought wrong.


----------



## candycorn (Nov 26, 2018)

Is carrying someone else's position to the utmost extreme degree satisfying to you guys?


----------



## sparky (Nov 26, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> For the life of me I can't figure out why we don't just tie minimum wage to the Consumer Price Index or something. Have it adjust yearly and leave it alone.



Sure , I'm in as soon as we tie the CPI and GND towards a sliding fee scale disparity

~S~


----------



## dblack (Nov 26, 2018)

candycorn said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > candycorn said:
> ...



How so? If you believe that raising minimum wage doesn't cause inflation or layoffs, why dick around with petty increases? Why not raise it meaningfully?

Is the reason, perhaps, that you know damned well that raising the minimum wage will increase unemployment and drive inflation, but you think it's worth it? Well, how much is it worth? That's what I'm asking. What would be the right balance in your view?


----------



## candycorn (Nov 26, 2018)

dblack said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



Raising it to $10 an hour would be nearly a 33% increase.  Hardly Petty.
Your questions have improper foundations.


----------



## dblack (Nov 26, 2018)

candycorn said:


> Raising it to $10 an hour would be nearly a 33% increase.  Hardly Petty.
> Your questions have improper foundations.



Improper foundations? Or just uncomfortable answers? Steer around them in any case. Can't be confronted with the truth. That wouldn't do at all.


----------



## Slyhunter (Nov 26, 2018)

dblack said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...


What minimum wage is a human life worth? What minimum sustenance should they work for in your eyes, a dollar an hour?
My argument is everyone who works for a living earns a living. For themselves, not a stable. 
Minimum wage should be set at CPI.


----------



## candycorn (Nov 26, 2018)

dblack said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > Raising it to $10 an hour would be nearly a 33% increase.  Hardly Petty.
> ...



You base them on false and not surprisingly idiotic assumptions that have zero basis in reality.  That is the truth and you're probably not comfortable being told that.  I  do not care.


----------



## dblack (Nov 26, 2018)

Slyhunter said:


> What minimum wage is a human life worth? What minimum sustenance should they work for in your eyes, a dollar an hour?



Well, in my view, it's none of my business. I should haven't any say at all in what other people get paid.



> My argument is everyone who works for a living earns a living. For themselves, not a stable.
> Minimum wage should be set at CPI.



CPI is an index. Do you mean that minimum wage _increases (or decreases) _should be based on changes in the CPI? Ok, but what should the minimum wage be to begin with? Right now, something like the 3% of workers earn minimum wage. Some have proposed changing the minimum to $15/hr. Currently around 40% of workers make $15/hr or less. So - best case scenario - 40% of workers would be at the minimum. Well, those that are able to keep their jobs at the new higher rate. What do you think the target should be?


----------



## Slyhunter (Nov 26, 2018)

dblack said:


> Slyhunter said:
> 
> 
> > What minimum wage is a human life worth? What minimum sustenance should they work for in your eyes, a dollar an hour?
> ...


I make $10 an hour. Back in 1992 I made $10 an hour and had an expense account and a company car. Everytime I changed jobs I had to settle for the same $10. It's the same me. Everyone in my house makes 10 an hour. Do we not deserve working vehicles, shelter, food? Landlord is going to raise the rent in January to 1100 a month. It's becoming too expensive to live.


----------



## dblack (Nov 26, 2018)

Slyhunter said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Slyhunter said:
> ...



So, you're just saying you want a raise? That's fine. That I can understand. But we're talking about laws banning low wage jobs. I don't see why other people can't take jobs just because you think they don't pay enough.


----------



## Slyhunter (Nov 26, 2018)

dblack said:


> Slyhunter said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...


Because I can't compete with those people and have a life worth living. I'd prefer suicide.


----------



## dblack (Nov 26, 2018)

candycorn said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > candycorn said:
> ...



What idiotic assumptions am I making??? I'm just asking you to take a stab at critical reasoning. It won't hurt. I promise.


----------



## dblack (Nov 26, 2018)

Slyhunter said:


> Because I can't compete with those people and have a life worth living. I'd prefer suicide.



How do you think those people feel? Where are they coming from that $10/hr seems like a good wage?  

At least you're honest. The truth of minimum wage laws is that they are intended to squelch competition in the labor market. They've long been promoted by unions and labor advocates to target 'scabs' - people who are willing to work for less than the union is demanding.

But at the end of the day, the sad fact is you can't increase the value of your labor by decree. You can't force an employer to pay a given amount. They can always choose to not pay you anything at all, to get by on fewer employees and simply lay people off to cover the increased labor rates. Which comes back to your 'screw the other guy' point of view. Minimum wage laws are actually about banning low wage laborers, or rather, making them illegal. They will still work regardless.


----------



## Slyhunter (Nov 26, 2018)

dblack said:


> Slyhunter said:
> 
> 
> > Because I can't compete with those people and have a life worth living. I'd prefer suicide.
> ...


Nobody's labor is worth so little they can't afford to live. Everyone deserves something more than a spot on the floor and gruel for food. Why work if that is all you are going to get?


----------



## dblack (Nov 26, 2018)

Slyhunter said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Slyhunter said:
> ...



People work for all kinds of reasons. Ever heard of volunteering? Who are you to judge what work someone else does? Or how much they are paid? Maybe they derive something more valuable than money from their work?


----------



## candycorn (Nov 26, 2018)

dblack said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



That increasing the minimum wage leads to unemployment.  Amazon raised their minimum wage earlier this year.  No such massive layoffs ensued.  Several states and municipalities have followed suit as well as preceded the actions by Amazon. No massive layoffs ensued.  In fact, unemployment is very low right now.  

So that is the idiotic assumptions you are making.  I'm just asking you to take a stab at making rational comments.  It won't hurt.  I promise.  Well, it wouldn't hurt me...saying something anti-conservative dogma may in fact hurt you though.


----------



## candycorn (Nov 26, 2018)

message deleted


----------



## Wyatt earp (Nov 27, 2018)

candycorn said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > candycorn said:
> ...




One company?


We are talking national and the only reason why the democrats want to do it, is try to stop company's from moving 


raise your state minimum wage to $59 bucks an hour, what do we care 


.


----------



## vasuderatorrent (Nov 27, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> For the life of me I can't figure out why we don't just tie minimum wage to the Consumer Price Index or something.  Have it adjust yearly and leave it alone.
> 
> We COULD attach it to Gross Domestic Product, give everyone "skin in the game" so to say.
> 
> ...



I think the Republicans should have jumped on it and raised it by absurdly small amounts over the next 20 years.  Then if Democrats opposed it, you could use it against them.  Raise it by 75 cents every 5 years for the next 30 years or something like that.  We can never get rid of minimum wage. The best we can do is keep it as low as possible so that we can compete with China, India and Russia.


----------



## hadit (Nov 27, 2018)

Slyhunter said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Slyhunter said:
> ...



May I ask why you have settled for the same pay for 26 years? Was there nothing you could have done to have increased your value to your employer?


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 27, 2018)

bear513 said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > candycorn said:
> ...


oh, look; no valid arguments from the Right Wing.  Only memes and other forms of fallacies.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 27, 2018)

bear513 said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > bear513 said:
> ...


don't worry; the rich already got richer, first, right wingers.  they can afford it now.


----------



## Wyatt earp (Nov 27, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> bear513 said:
> 
> 
> > danielpalos said:
> ...


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 27, 2018)

hadit said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > candycorn said:
> ...


capitalism has a natural rate of unemployment.  it is natural.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 27, 2018)

bear513 said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > bear513 said:
> ...


that is how seriously i take the right wing, in the abortion threads, too.


----------



## dblack (Nov 27, 2018)

candycorn said:


> That increasing the minimum wage leads to unemployment.  Amazon raised their minimum wage earlier this year.  No such massive layoffs ensued.  Several states and municipalities have followed suit as well as preceded the actions by Amazon. No massive layoffs ensued.  In fact, unemployment is very low right now.



Huh?? Amazon raised the wages themselves. Clearly they thought it was viable. We're talking about laws that forces business to raise wages, even when it's not.


> So that is the idiotic assumptions you are making.



My assumption is that raising labor costs for business will have an impact of some kind. It will cause layoffs, cause price increases, or lower profits. Likely some mix of three. It's inevitable.

So, if you're denying this assumption, why not raise minimum wage more and more? Why not raise it 'till we're all in tall cotton? Is it because you know that I'm right, and you know that raising the minimum wage significantly would, in fact, cause significant unemployment and inflation?


----------



## candycorn (Nov 27, 2018)

dblack said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > That increasing the minimum wage leads to unemployment.  Amazon raised their minimum wage earlier this year.  No such massive layoffs ensued.  Several states and municipalities have followed suit as well as preceded the actions by Amazon. No massive layoffs ensued.  In fact, unemployment is very low right now.
> ...


Amazon did, several states did, several cities did.  No massive lay offs.
The argument that raising the MW leads to layoffs was proven false over and over.



dblack said:


> > So that is the idiotic assumptions you are making.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Your assumption was proven wrong; by several entities.


----------



## dblack (Nov 27, 2018)

candycorn said:


> Amazon did, several states did, several cities did.  No massive lay offs.
> The argument that raising the MW leads to layoffs was proven false over and over.



Businesses raising wages voluntarily has nothing to do with minimum wage laws.



dblack said:


> Your assumption was proven wrong; by several entities.



Then why limit your aspirations? If you really believe that, why only $15/hr? Are you just cruel? Why not $20/hr? Why not more?

I haven't yet found a mw advocate who will answer this question honestly. Clearly you have _some_ reason for not raising minimum wage to very high levels. Is it a secret?


----------



## candycorn (Nov 27, 2018)

dblack said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > Amazon did, several states did, several cities did.  No massive lay offs.
> ...


Again, several state and municipal governments have raised their minimum wage in their jurisdiction. No massive layoffs.

Seattle approves $15/hr minimum wage.

Missouri did it in November.  


dblack said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Your assumption was proven wrong; by several entities.
> ...



Raising it 30% or so to $10 per hour is a healthy increase. 

  Seldom do most workers get a 30% raise.  

I’ve said it numerous times.  I haven’t yet found someone on the board who cannot read English.  Perhaps you’re the first.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 27, 2018)

...solving simple poverty via market friendly means.


----------



## dblack (Nov 27, 2018)

candycorn said:


> Again, several state and municipal governments have raised their minimum wage in their jurisdiction. No massive layoffs. ....
> 
> 
> dblack said:
> ...



Why can't you just answer the question? Is it that painful? If there are no downsides to raising MW, why not raise it to the point that we're all rich?


----------



## blastoff (Nov 27, 2018)

Toronado3800 said:


> For the life of me I can't figure out why we don't just tie minimum wage to the Consumer Price Index or something.  Have it adjust yearly and leave it alone.
> 
> We COULD attach it to Gross Domestic Product, give everyone "skin in the game" so to say.
> 
> ...


Didn’t know the minimum wage was broken.  Must have missed a memo.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 27, 2018)

blastoff said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> > For the life of me I can't figure out why we don't just tie minimum wage to the Consumer Price Index or something.  Have it adjust yearly and leave it alone.
> ...


social services cost the equivalent to fourteen dollars an hour.  a fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage makes economic sense.


----------



## candycorn (Nov 27, 2018)

dblack said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > Again, several state and municipal governments have raised their minimum wage in their jurisdiction. No massive layoffs. ....
> ...



I don’t recall making the argument that there are no downsides.


----------



## dblack (Nov 27, 2018)

candycorn said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > candycorn said:
> ...



*Then what are they*?!?!? Why the evasion?


----------



## hadit (Nov 27, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> bear513 said:
> 
> 
> > danielpalos said:
> ...



That's what you cause when you continue spouting meaningless phrases after they have been destroyed meant times as if they are significant. IOW, why give you substance when all you have is no valid argument?


----------



## hadit (Nov 27, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > danielpalos said:
> ...



That's nothing more than your excuse to avoid the responsibility of providing for yourself. Yes, there will always be the unemployed, but here's the secret, so pay careful attention:

Are you disabled and CAN'T work? Legitimate claim and you deserve assistance. There are programs to help you. 

Were you laid off through no fault of your own and can't find work for a while? Legitimate claim and you deserve TEMPORARY access to the unemployment insurance your employer has been paying all this time. That's what it's there for. That, and NOT for those who didn't work at all. 

Are you a single parent working as much as you can while trying to raise your children? Legitimate claim and you deserve TEMPORARY assistance, but don't expect to have more children and stick the taxpayers for all the bills. 

If you DON'T fit into one of those categories, don't expect the taxpayers to pick up the tab for your life. Choosing not to work does not put you in the ranks of the "natural rate of unemployment". Did you notice the word I capitalized in the points above? TEMPORARY. That means we're willing to help you get back on your feet, but we're not willing to carry you when you can walk on your own. This is what it boils down to: you don't want to work a job and you want the taxpayers to pay your bills WHEN YOU ARE ABLE TO TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF. You cloak that desire in vague, gassy terms, but at its heart, that's what it is. Stop it. Stop pretending. Stop repeating your failed, meaningless phrases. Just stop it.


----------



## dblack (Nov 27, 2018)

dblack said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



*cricket party*!!


----------



## hadit (Nov 27, 2018)

dblack said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > That increasing the minimum wage leads to unemployment.  Amazon raised their minimum wage earlier this year.  No such massive layoffs ensued.  Several states and municipalities have followed suit as well as preceded the actions by Amazon. No massive layoffs ensued.  In fact, unemployment is very low right now.
> ...



That is the correct motorcycle. If there was no ill effect from raising the MW, we could simply raise it to $100/hr and eliminate poverty. The truth is, a MW works only as long as it's kept low enough and raised by small enough increments that it doesn't really matter.


----------



## hadit (Nov 27, 2018)

candycorn said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > candycorn said:
> ...



It is a matter of degree. Raise the MW by a little and the impact is relatively small. A few jobs go away, some get replaced by automation, a few more minority teenagers can't break into the job market. Jack it overnight from 2-3% of workers getting MW to almost half and you cause big problems.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 27, 2018)

hadit said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > bear513 said:
> ...


let's solve simple poverty via market friendly means.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 27, 2018)

hadit said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > hadit said:
> ...


how does what You advocate help solve our homeless problem?


----------



## LilOlLady (Nov 27, 2018)

Deport cheap illegal labor. But I will pay more for lettuce. But I will have more money to pay more for lettuce.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 27, 2018)

LilOlLady said:


> Deport cheap illegal labor. But I will pay more for lettuce. But I will have more money to pay more for lettuce.


only lousy capitalists lose money on border policy.  we have a Commerce Clause.


----------



## hadit (Nov 27, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > danielpalos said:
> ...



You're moving the goal posts trying to avoid dealing with what I said. We weren't talking about homelessness, we were talking about the fact that you want taxpayers to pay your bills so you don't have to work, even though you can. Deal with that first.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 27, 2018)

hadit said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > hadit said:
> ...


i have a solution, you don't.  how Worthless, is that.


----------



## candycorn (Nov 27, 2018)

dblack said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



What do you think they are?


----------



## hadit (Nov 27, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > danielpalos said:
> ...



You so this every time you paint yourself into a corner, and you've been in this corner many times.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 27, 2018)

hadit said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > hadit said:
> ...


solving simple poverty promotes the general welfare.


----------



## Slyhunter (Nov 27, 2018)

hadit said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > hadit said:
> ...


I lost my job because of a political post I made on Facebook. My job, selling car parts for Eckler's, decided they didn't like my political point of view, called me racist for being anti-muslim, and fired me. I was unemployed for more than the 10 weeks they paid unemployment for, got a job that I kept for a month before getting injured with multiple fractures to my left foot. I did not fall, jump, or anything they just fractured all by themselves. I am not qualified for short term disability because I wasn't employed long enough to get enough points for FAML whatever. I can't walk, not supposed to stand, I can't work and nobody is giving me money to pay my bills.

I'm also Bipolar and they won't give me disability for it either even though my bipolar has cost me a lot of jobs, getting me fired.

So what about me?


---
My sister has Liver Psorosious, severe menopause and periods and sometimes can't leave the house. Her medication puts her too sleep. She's been disabled for years but the government keeps denying her because they said she can still do a sit down job. How the fuck is she supposed to get to her sit down job?

---
The disability laws are a joke. You have to be homeless, for months, before you can qualify for disability. Or a game player and cheat the system.


----------



## hadit (Nov 27, 2018)

Slyhunter said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > danielpalos said:
> ...



We can always revisit disability, that's not the argument. The poster continually pops up and wants to be paid even though he chooses not to work. Not for disability, not for hard life circumstances, simply for choosing not to work.


----------



## dblack (Nov 27, 2018)

candycorn said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > candycorn said:
> ...



More evasion? I've been clear - I think minimum wage causes unemployment and inflation. You deny that, which is fine, but you seem to think it has _some_ downside. Is it just some kind of gut feeling? Can you be more specific?


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 27, 2018)

hadit said:


> Slyhunter said:
> 
> 
> > hadit said:
> ...


You can't employ everyone, even in right to work States.  

Capitalism has a natural rate of unemployment.

Compensation for that natural rate of unemployment is market friendly and provides automatic stabilization to our economy, along with ensuring liquidity.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 27, 2018)

dblack said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...


inflation happens regardless; and compensation for capitalism's natural rate of unemployment solves that problem.


----------



## Wyatt earp (Nov 27, 2018)

candycorn said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > candycorn said:
> ...




*How much of a raise did people get making $10 bucks an hour?



.*


----------



## hadit (Nov 27, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > Slyhunter said:
> ...



If you will not work when you can work and there are jobs available, why do you deserve taxpayer money?


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 27, 2018)

hadit said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > hadit said:
> ...


Firms fail all the time.  People being able to quit means those who are the least motivated to work, won't have to.


----------



## whitehall (Nov 27, 2018)

Minimum wage has nothing to do with the consumer price index and minimum wage is not meant to be a freaking career choice. Why should mom and pop stores be compelled to pay a shelf stocker more than the freaking job is worth? The unintended consequences to raising the M.W. is that small businesses will fire minimum wage people, invest in robotics and sweep the floors themselves.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 27, 2018)

whitehall said:


> Minimum wage has nothing to do with the consumer price index and minimum wage is not meant to be a freaking career choice. Why should mom and pop stores be compelled to pay a shelf stocker more than the freaking job is worth? The unintended consequences to raising the M.W. is that small businesses will fire minimum wage people, invest in robotics and sweep the floors themselves.


we use fiat money; that means Government Tells you what it is worth.


----------



## task0778 (Nov 27, 2018)

whitehall said:


> Minimum wage has nothing to do with the consumer price index and minimum wage is not meant to be a freaking career choice. Why should mom and pop stores be compelled to pay a shelf stocker more than the freaking job is worth? The unintended consequences to raising the M.W. is that small businesses will fire minimum wage people, invest in robotics and sweep the floors themselves.



I suspect that many of them will go out of business.  It's hard enough to compete with the Walmarts and Amazons as it is, but throw in the higher labor costs and it gets damn near impossible.   And for some small businesses, it's enough to just close up shop because the investment in time and money just isn't worth it.


----------



## dblack (Nov 27, 2018)

dblack said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



I guess not.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 27, 2018)

task0778 said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> > Minimum wage has nothing to do with the consumer price index and minimum wage is not meant to be a freaking career choice. Why should mom and pop stores be compelled to pay a shelf stocker more than the freaking job is worth? The unintended consequences to raising the M.W. is that small businesses will fire minimum wage people, invest in robotics and sweep the floors themselves.
> ...


who cares if we lose low wage jobs.  they are a drag on our economy.


----------



## dblack (Nov 27, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> task0778 said:
> 
> 
> > whitehall said:
> ...



People who can only land low-wage jobs.


----------



## Slyhunter (Nov 27, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > danielpalos said:
> ...


I believe everyone willing to work should earn a living wage. But you believe that those able bodied but unwilling to work should be supported too? Why? What have they done to deserve being supported as leeches to society?


----------



## Slyhunter (Nov 27, 2018)

whitehall said:


> Minimum wage has nothing to do with the consumer price index and minimum wage is not meant to be a freaking career choice. Why should mom and pop stores be compelled to pay a shelf stocker more than the freaking job is worth? The unintended consequences to raising the M.W. is that small businesses will fire minimum wage people, invest in robotics and sweep the floors themselves.


If the job is worth doing it's worth doing by someone who can support themselves with more than a cot and slop. Working needs to come with a reward, and simply surviving isn't a reward.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 27, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> task0778 said:
> 
> 
> > whitehall said:
> ...



Bums like you are a drag on our economy.


----------



## Slyhunter (Nov 27, 2018)

Low wages are not a drag on our economy, low wage earners are.


----------



## hadit (Nov 27, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> task0778 said:
> 
> 
> > whitehall said:
> ...



I've heard some stupid things, but that's a topper.


----------



## OnePercenter (Nov 27, 2018)

task0778 said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> > Minimum wage has nothing to do with the consumer price index and minimum wage is not meant to be a freaking career choice. Why should mom and pop stores be compelled to pay a shelf stocker more than the freaking job is worth? The unintended consequences to raising the M.W. is that small businesses will fire minimum wage people, invest in robotics and sweep the floors themselves.
> ...



Why would you want to compete with Walmart and Amazon? You jump on Amazon's partner program and get worldwide distributorship.


----------



## dblack (Nov 27, 2018)

Slyhunter said:


> Low wages are not a drag on our economy, low wage earners are.



And clearly who you're wanting to target. Your main concern seems to be people who are willing to do the same work as you for less, right? You want to make them criminals.


----------



## dblack (Nov 27, 2018)

Slyhunter said:


> If the job is worth doing it's worth doing by someone who can support themselves with more than a cot and slop. Working needs to come with a reward, and simply surviving isn't a reward.



So, maybe someone wants to do a job that isn't worth doing, by your standards. Why should that be illegal?


----------



## Slyhunter (Nov 27, 2018)

dblack said:


> Slyhunter said:
> 
> 
> > If the job is worth doing it's worth doing by someone who can support themselves with more than a cot and slop. Working needs to come with a reward, and simply surviving isn't a reward.
> ...


Good point.
But why should I be forced to work for those wages simply because I can't find a better job due to the influx of no skill wage earners across the border.


----------



## dblack (Nov 27, 2018)

Slyhunter said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Slyhunter said:
> ...



I don't think you should be forced to work at all.


----------



## candycorn (Nov 27, 2018)

dblack said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > candycorn said:
> ...



Your thoughts have been shown to be inaccurate as multiple municipalities and states have minimum wages about the FMW without the layoffs and inflation.  It's not a "gut feeling", it's an analysis based on fact.  

But please ask "why" again Timmy...


----------



## dblack (Nov 27, 2018)

candycorn said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



So, still just playing dodgem, eh?


----------



## Slyhunter (Nov 27, 2018)

dblack said:


> Slyhunter said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...


Then what good are you? What purpose do you serve? Why should society work to support you? What have you done to deserve their support?
Somebody has to work so you live, you can't just walk through the Garden of Eden and pluck sustenance from the trees.


----------



## dblack (Nov 27, 2018)

Slyhunter said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Slyhunter said:
> ...



OK.


----------



## Slyhunter (Nov 27, 2018)

dblack said:


> Slyhunter said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...


?


----------



## candycorn (Nov 27, 2018)

dblack said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



Still not accepting the facts as they directly contradict your self-entitled "assumptions", eh?


----------



## dblack (Nov 27, 2018)

candycorn said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > candycorn said:
> ...



I'm just trying to understand your views. Why don't you want to raise minimum wage to something meaningful? You hinted earlier that there were downsides, but apparently you don't want to say what they are.


----------



## candycorn (Nov 27, 2018)

dblack said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



For the fifth time, a 30% raise in pay is meaningful.  Not many people have ever gotten a 30% raise at the same job.  

But please ask "why again Timmy....


----------



## dblack (Nov 27, 2018)

candycorn said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > candycorn said:
> ...



Have you ever tried to raise a family on $15/hr? If your goal is to force wages that will give working people a decent standard of living, it needs to be closer to $30/hr. I'm just asking, why not go for that? Or even more? But you cannot, will not, answer. Is it something embarrassing? Why the games?


----------



## candycorn (Nov 27, 2018)

dblack said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



Actually yes I did.  Wasn't that difficult but I may have had unique circumstances.   

My thinking is to get the MW to $10 an hour over 3-5 years.  That is a 30% increase or so in the current wage of $7 and some change.  A 30% raise over 3 years is a 10% average per year.  This is probably a yearly increase of 4-5X what most normally get.  

Your arguments are idiotic but keep making them.  Nobody is playing games with you although you're quite entertaining in this manic push you have to get me to answer a question based on your assumptions which have been proven false.  

My assumption is that the Sun is exactly the right climate to set up a colony.  So tell me why we shouldn't colonize the sun.  Does my assumption hold water?  No.  Neither does yours.


----------



## dblack (Nov 27, 2018)

candycorn said:


> Your arguments are idiotic but keep making them.


I'm not even making any arguments! I gave up on that a several pages ago. Now I'm just trying to get some kind of clarity on your position. But you can't, or won't, even answer a simple fucking question.


----------



## Slyhunter (Nov 27, 2018)

dblack said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...


You are not supposed to raise a family on Minimum Wage. If Minimum Wage is all you can make you shouldn't have kids. If you can't support yourself you shouldn't be "allowed" to bring leeches into society to collect welfare.


----------



## candycorn (Nov 27, 2018)

dblack said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > Your arguments are idiotic but keep making them.
> ...



From earlier today:

" I think minimum wage causes unemployment and inflation."

That is your argument.

It has been demonstrated that neither is true as we have several states and municipalities that force companies to hire above the FMW and we have very low unemployment and little inflation although it is on the rise nationwide.  

Your now arguing for a $30 minimum wage. It's almost as brazenly idiotic as thinking the MW causes unemployment while we have both a minimum wage and near record low unemployment at the same time.  

But keep asking "why" Timmy....this is fun.

Thanks for the batting practice.


----------



## candycorn (Nov 27, 2018)

Slyhunter said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > candycorn said:
> ...



Wow...that's pretty stupid.


----------



## dblack (Nov 27, 2018)

candycorn said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > candycorn said:
> ...



Heh... alright. I give up!


----------



## candycorn (Nov 27, 2018)

dblack said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



Probably a good idea.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 28, 2018)

dblack said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > task0778 said:
> ...


we are advocating for increasing the minimum hourly rate for a low wage job.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 28, 2018)

Slyhunter said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > hadit said:
> ...


your morals don't matter.  your economic arguments do.  

it is not about morals but about ensuring capital circulates in our economy.  this is Necessary to produce a Positive not negative, multiplier effect upon our economy.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 28, 2018)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > task0778 said:
> ...


lol.  we are all talk and no action here.  bums like You with Nothing but Fallacy, are the drag on our economy.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 28, 2018)

Slyhunter said:


> Low wages are not a drag on our economy, low wage earners are.


we need an institutional upward pressure on wages not individual.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 28, 2018)

hadit said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > task0778 said:
> ...


lol.  the right wing prefers to subsidize the Rich because they are Worth it under capitalism?


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 28, 2018)

dblack said:


> Slyhunter said:
> 
> 
> > Low wages are not a drag on our economy, low wage earners are.
> ...


yes, if they also require social services as a form of subsidy.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 28, 2018)

dblack said:


> Slyhunter said:
> 
> 
> > If the job is worth doing it's worth doing by someone who can support themselves with more than a cot and slop. Working needs to come with a reward, and simply surviving isn't a reward.
> ...


The capitalist can do it himself; that is not illegal.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 28, 2018)

Slyhunter said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Slyhunter said:
> ...


employment is at the will of either party.  you should be able to receive unemployment compensation for simply being unemployed.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 28, 2018)

dblack said:


> Slyhunter said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...


employment is at the will of either party.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 28, 2018)

Slyhunter said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Slyhunter said:
> ...


quit your day job and try it.  don't whine about it.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 28, 2018)

dblack said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...


two adults working should be enough.


----------



## August West (Nov 28, 2018)

DGS49 said:


> Dear Tornado Person:
> 
> No intelligent person wants to significantly increase the minimum wage.  Notice that when the Democrats had control of both house and the White House in Obama's first term, NOTHING was done on the minimum wage.
> 
> ...


Seattle you say? You`re long on verbiage but short on facts.
Seattle’s $15 Minimum Wage Experiment is Working
Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
They Said Seattle’s Higher Base Pay Would Hurt Workers. Why Did They Flip?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 28, 2018)




----------



## Windparadox (Nov 28, 2018)

`
In a small town close to me, Festus has been able to keep his hardware store going for the last 30 years. He tends to be expensive. He pays his experienced help about $9.00/hr and his runners (hard labor/lifting) about $12.00/hr. Despite his high prices, people go there because those experienced sales folk he has are damn near experts. Most are retired and work just to get out of the house. The runners are basically school kids. It's a friendly, family atmosphere.

A mandatory $15.00/hr would kill his business. This is just one of the many reasons I oppose a $15 minimum wage.
`


----------



## hadit (Nov 28, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > danielpalos said:
> ...



Okay, that's even worse.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 28, 2018)

Toddsterpatriot said:


>


Capitalism has a natural rate of unemployment.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 28, 2018)

And a bunch of lazy bums.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 28, 2018)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> And a bunch of lazy bums.


lazy employers who prefer to be subsidized.  

any homeless in your zip code, no tax breaks.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 28, 2018)

I agree, tax the homeless.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 28, 2018)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> I agree, tax the homeless.


right wing policy?  tax the poor to help the Rich get Richer faster.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 28, 2018)

It was your stupid idea, I just wanted to make you feel better.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 28, 2018)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> It was your stupid idea, I just wanted to make you feel better.


tax is tax.  why not raise the minimum wage to increase demand and tax revenue.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 28, 2018)

If you ever got a job, how much tax would you pay at the current minimum wage?


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 28, 2018)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> If you ever got a job, how much tax would you pay at the current minimum wage?


fifteen dollars an hour pays more in local taxes, payroll taxes, and other taxes, than anything less, under any form of Capitalism.  what is Your opinion.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 28, 2018)

Your higher tax payment is more than offset by the employers lower tax payment.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 28, 2018)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Your higher tax payment is more than offset by the employers lower tax payment.


It should be.  Henry Ford doubled Autoworker wages.  

only lousy capitalists complain about Any _minimum_ wage.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 28, 2018)

You said it would increase tax revenues. You lied.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 28, 2018)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> You said it would increase tax revenues. You lied.


how did you reach your conclusion?  i resort to the fewest fallacies, just for argumentative practice and argumentative fun.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 28, 2018)

Your higher tax payment is more than offset by the employers lower tax payment.


----------



## Wyatt earp (Nov 28, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > You said it would increase tax revenues. You lied.
> ...




Translation~


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 28, 2018)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Your higher tax payment is more than offset by the employers lower tax payment.


the left has recourse to the federal doctrine.  there is no provision for excuses.

compensation for capitalism's natural rate of unemployment, upgrades that social infrastructure.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 28, 2018)

danielpalos said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > Your higher tax payment is more than offset by the employers lower tax payment.
> ...



All I heard was, blah, blah, blah, you're right, my higher tax payment is more than offset by my employers lower tax payment.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 28, 2018)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> danielpalos said:
> 
> 
> > Toddsterpatriot said:
> ...


so what.  solving simple poverty is as simple as compensation for simply being unemployed, at the equivalent to fourteen dollars an hour.  Go ahead and fire a Minimum wage worker.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 28, 2018)

So what? You lied.
Now go get your shine box.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 28, 2018)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> So what? You lied.
> Now go get your shine box.


your special pleading means nothing, by solving for simple poverty via market friendly means.


----------

