# I'm Scared that Dow will Drop Up 10K



## GHook93

It's nowdown close to 10K at the moment with another bad day. I don't care what side of the isle your on, the market tanking like this is BAD!!! Political points mean DICK, if the economy gets so low that we can't recover! 

If your not scared by this you should be!


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## Ravi

Invest in gold and US Treasuries and you'll be fine.

That's what Wall Street is doing.


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## Truthmatters

the world will not crumble, get a grip


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## DavidS

Ravi said:


> Invest in gold and US Treasuries and you'll be fine.
> 
> That's what Wall Street is doing.



And when the Gold bubble bursts, they're going to be SCREWED.

In the next 5 years, I doubt gold will be worth more than $200/ounce. This is a BAD BAD bubble.


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## Ernie S.

DavidS said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Invest in gold and US Treasuries and you'll be fine.
> 
> That's what Wall Street is doing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And when the Gold bubble bursts, they're going to be SCREWED.
> 
> In the next 5 years, I doubt gold will be worth more than $200/ounce. This is a BAD BAD bubble.
Click to expand...

It's not a bubble and the price of gold is fairly stable. The problem is a dollar buys less gold than it did a year ago. It buys less food, gasoline, lumber and steel too.
If we allow the Fed to print even more worthless dollars, the price of gold, along with food, gasoline lumber and steel will continue to rise.
What we are seeing is not the rise of a gold bubble, it is the collapse of a dollar bubble.


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## spectrumc01

I wonder what percentage of the population actually has money in the stock market?

Myself and friends of mine, who are in the same boat, don't give two shits about people who have lost money in the market.  There are those of us who already know that it can't get any worse for the working poor.


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## Toro

I'm hoping that it happens!

Good bargains.


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## Rozman

Toro said:


> I'm hoping that it happens!
> 
> Good bargains.



I thought that when this happened three years ago...bought GE and AIG at what I though was cheap...three years later and I still haven't broken even yet.

Thanks Obama, watching my retirement accounts go under for the second time in three years.


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## BDBoop

spectrumc01 said:


> I wonder what percentage of the population actually has money in the stock market?
> 
> Myself and friends of mine, who are in the same boat, don't give two shits about people who have lost money in the market.  There are those of us who already know that it can't get any worse for the working poor.



That's pretty much my sentiment. They're fine with us crashing and burning, so backatcha, babe.


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## LordBrownTrout

spectrumc01 said:


> I wonder what percentage of the population actually has money in the stock market?
> 
> Myself and friends of mine, who are in the same boat, don't give two shits about people who have lost money in the market.  There are those of us who already know that it can't get any worse for the working poor.




A lot of those who lost money were the average middle class working American.....just trying to put a little away for retirement.  Why would you not care about the average person just trying to make ends meet?


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## Toro

Rozman said:


> Toro said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm hoping that it happens!
> 
> Good bargains.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I thought that when this happened three years ago...bought GE and AIG at what I though was cheap...three years later and I still haven't broken even yet.
> 
> Thanks Obama, watching my retirement accounts go under for the second time in three years.
Click to expand...


I'm a professional.

Don't try this at home, folks.


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## LordBrownTrout

Toro said:


> Rozman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toro said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm hoping that it happens!
> 
> Good bargains.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I thought that when this happened three years ago...bought GE and AIG at what I though was cheap...three years later and I still haven't broken even yet.
> 
> Thanks Obama, watching my retirement accounts go under for the second time in three years.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm a professional.
> 
> Don't try this at home, folks.
Click to expand...



True.  I probably owe you a bottle of fine wine for your instincts on silver.


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## auditor0007

Toro said:


> I'm hoping that it happens!
> 
> Good bargains.



There is no bubble in the stock market currently.  Companies are sitting on tons of cash and they've already made the necessary cuts to operate profitably in this down economy.  Fear and speculation are the driving forces, but they often have little to do with reality.   They do create very good opportunities for those who can predict these trends effectively though.  On the flipside, for those who stay the course, it usually ends up being a bad deal.


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## william the wie

The US is getting hit by the EU and Far East problems. I'm happy where I'm at even though my gold mining shares went down 10+% as gold hit new highs. That is strange.


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## GHook93

Ravi said:


> Invest in gold and US Treasuries and you'll be fine.
> 
> That's what Wall Street is doing.



Taking advice from you on investing is like taking advice from chimp on football! No offense!


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## Ravi

GHook93 said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Invest in gold and US Treasuries and you'll be fine.
> 
> That's what Wall Street is doing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Taking advice from you on investing is like taking advice from chimp on football! No offense!
Click to expand...


I'm okay with that. I could probably buy and sell you ten times over.


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## GHook93

Ernie S. said:


> DavidS said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Invest in gold and US Treasuries and you'll be fine.
> 
> That's what Wall Street is doing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And when the Gold bubble bursts, they're going to be SCREWED.
> 
> In the next 5 years, I doubt gold will be worth more than $200/ounce. This is a BAD BAD bubble.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's not a bubble and the price of gold is fairly stable. The problem is a dollar buys less gold than it did a year ago. It buys less food, gasoline, lumber and steel too.
> If we allow the Fed to print even more worthless dollars, the price of gold, along with food, gasoline lumber and steel will continue to rise.
> What we are seeing is not the rise of a gold bubble, it is the collapse of a dollar bubble.
Click to expand...


There is a big difference in commodies like food, gas, lumber and steel and gold. Those are products we need for daily living. The are necessity. Gold, while it can and are used for jewelry, it's not daily necessity and right now it's being bought up quick as a "safe" investment. The price is skyrocketing and eventually the bubble will burst. People used to say property values never go down, esp when the value of the dollar is decreasing. Now they say the same about gold!


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## Chris

What we are seeing now is a buying opportunity.

The market will come back, the fundamentals are not that bad.


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## Moonglow

I invested in property, I still have a 3 1/2 times original profit.


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## Ravi

Stocks are back up.

Where are the threads thanking Obama???


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## GHook93

spectrumc01 said:


> I wonder what percentage of the population actually has money in the stock market?
> 
> Myself and friends of mine, who are in the same boat, don't give two shits about people who have lost money in the market.  There are those of us who already know that it can't get any worse for the working poor.



You don't have a 401K plan? No IRA? No mutual funds? No government pension plan? Wow I pitty people like you and your friends! The majority of Americans have some investments in the market. The people hurting the most right now are the retirees (not just the rich one), who were going to retire on this money! 

And it's not just investors that are hurting, the companies on the stock market that EMPLOY A LARGE AMOUNT OF AMERICANS are hurting! What do you think they do when they are hurting?

How old are you? Do you really believe only rich people invest in the market?

Get your head out of your arse and get a job son!


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## GHook93

BDBoop said:


> spectrumc01 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder what percentage of the population actually has money in the stock market?
> 
> Myself and friends of mine, who are in the same boat, don't give two shits about people who have lost money in the market.  There are those of us who already know that it can't get any worse for the working poor.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's pretty much my sentiment. They're fine with us crashing and burning, so backatcha, babe.
Click to expand...


That is because you are as brain dead as he is!


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## GHook93

Chris said:


> What we are seeing now is a buying opportunity.
> 
> The market will come back, the fundamentals are not that bad.



The fundamentals are not that bad! Interesting YOU make the comment while Obama is in the white house, because your the same partisan hack that attacked McCain when he made those comment while running for the Presidency!


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## konradv

GHook93 said:


> spectrumc01 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder what percentage of the population actually has money in the stock market?
> 
> Myself and friends of mine, who are in the same boat, don't give two shits about people who have lost money in the market.  There are those of us who already know that it can't get any worse for the working poor.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You don't have a 401K plan? No IRA? No mutual funds? No government pension plan? Wow I pitty people like you and your friends! The majority of Americans have some investments in the market. The people hurting the most right now are the retirees (not just the rich one), who were going to retire on this money!
> 
> And it's not just investors that are hurting, the companies on the stock market that EMPLOY A LARGE AMOUNT OF AMERICANS are hurting! What do you think they do when they are hurting?
> 
> How old are you? Do you really believe only rich people invest in the market?
> 
> Get your head out of your arse and get a job son!
Click to expand...


Glad I wasn't forced into a 401K and still have a traditional, non-governmental, pension.  Not everyone has the time, know-how or patience to manage one properly.  Forcing everyone to do their own financial planning to that extent, is like saying everyone should be doing their own surgery.  Some things should be left to professionals.


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## Douger

GHook93 said:


> It's nowdown close to 10K at the moment with another bad day. I don't care what side of the isle your on, the market tanking like this is BAD!!! Political points mean DICK, if the economy gets so low that we can't recover!
> 
> If your not scared by this you should be!


See. Their plan is working perfectly. They love scared sheep.


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## editec

spectrumc01 said:


> I wonder what percentage of the population actually has money in the stock market?
> 
> Myself and friends of mine, who are in the same boat, don't give two shits about people who have lost money in the market. *There are those of us who already know that it can't get any worse for the working poor*.


 
While I am very sympathetic to your indifference for those still well heeled who are losing money in the market (after all they are indifferent to your plight) you are wrong, DEAD WRONG, if you imagine that it cannot get any worse for the working poor.

It can get unimaginably bad for those without resources to weather out the bad times, Spec.

AS things unravel, as society fails to sustain a greater and greater percentage of the population, the first people whose heads are on the block as those who live in and with the working poor.

Why?

Because when things fail, and people get desperate, they go after those with some resources and NO means of protecting themselves.

LOOK at the riots in England right now.

Are they attacking Buckingham Palace?

Hell no! Those thugs are attacking the very stores and shops_ in their own neighborhoods._

We saw _exactly the same thing happen_ in the RACE RIOTS of the 60s.

Something like 30 cities in the USA had riots that would probably make these events in England look like a Sunday school picnic.

If you're one of the working poor the best advice I can give you is this: *GET THE HELL OUT OF THE MAJOR CITIES!!!*

When the shit hits the fan, those shit-spewing fans will be in _urban areas._

Thousands of years of history of failing societies and what the fallout of those events looks support like me on this survival strategy, amigo.

Societies _IMPLODE_ FROM THE _CENTER_.


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## uscitizen

GHook93 said:


> It's nowdown close to 10K at the moment with another bad day. I don't care what side of the isle your on, the market tanking like this is BAD!!! Political points mean DICK, if the economy gets so low that we can't recover!
> 
> If your not scared by this you should be!



Why?  It has been lower than 10k and we did fine.


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## saveliberty

Fear destroys, maims and makes courage.  You pick.


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## BDBoop

BDBoop said:


> spectrumc01 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder what percentage of the population actually has money in the stock market?
> 
> Myself and friends of mine, who are in the same boat, don't give two shits about people who have lost money in the market.  There are those of us who already know that it can't get any worse for the working poor.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's pretty much my sentiment. They're fine with us crashing and burning, so backatcha, babe.
Click to expand...


Dear Ghook93;

I'm not actually retarded. Disagreeing with you does not mean "And therefore." Grow the fuck up.


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## iamwhatiseem

I hope the DOW tanks, but it needs to hold for 48 hours or so...obviously that is not happening today.
You don't make money in the stock market by "leaving it in for the long run" this is HORRIBLE advice. - That is how it was pre-1980's. Leaving your money in stocks without really doing anything is for suckers, absolutely insane to do that.
The DOW has to rise and fall before you can make appreciable money...it is all a game anymore, and if you don't play along - you lose.


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## uscitizen

in 1990 the Dow was only around 2600 or so and things were fine.


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## signelect

This is scary!!


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## Bill Angel

auditor0007 said:


> Toro said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm hoping that it happens!
> 
> Good bargains.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no bubble in the stock market currently.  Companies are sitting on tons of cash and they've already made the necessary cuts to operate profitably in this down economy.  Fear and speculation are the driving forces, but they often have little to do with reality.   They do create very good opportunities for those who can predict these trends effectively though.  On the flipside, for those who stay the course, it usually ends up being a bad deal.
Click to expand...


I agree with you, and I think that you have hit upon part of the problem.
The Federal government spent money to stimulate the economy. 
Corporate America took advantage of this government financial stimulus effort to accumulate and then sit on tons of cash, rather than using the money to create jobs. 
If the money had been paid out to workers as salaries, the workers would then have paid income tax on the money that they made, and that money would have flowed back into the Federal coffers, rather than just sitting there in the pockets of the corporations. So corporations are partly to blame for the size of the federal deficit (and the continuing recession), given how they chose to utilize (nor not utilize) the Federal economic stimulus money.


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## uscitizen

The scary thing about the dow has been the waaay artificially inflated highs.


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## FireFly

Yesterday at Dow 10,800 markets tested the Pre-Lehman bankruptsy lows that set off the to big to fail crisis. Yesterday was the 4th heaviest volume on record. It could mark a turning point.


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## Ravi

Looks like we'll all be thanking President Obama for turning around the stock market.


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## saveliberty

Bill Angel said:


> auditor0007 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toro said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm hoping that it happens!
> 
> Good bargains.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no bubble in the stock market currently.  Companies are sitting on tons of cash and they've already made the necessary cuts to operate profitably in this down economy.  Fear and speculation are the driving forces, but they often have little to do with reality.   They do create very good opportunities for those who can predict these trends effectively though.  On the flipside, for those who stay the course, it usually ends up being a bad deal.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree with you, and I think that you have hit upon part of the problem.
> The Federal government spent money to stimulate the economy.
> Corporate America took advantage of this government financial stimulus effort to accumulate and then sit on tons of cash, rather than using the money to create jobs.
> If the money had been paid out to workers as salaries, the workers would then have paid income tax on the money that they made, and that money would have flowed back into the Federal coffers, rather than just sitting there in the pockets of the corporations. So corporations are partly to blame for the size of the federal deficit (and the continuing recession), given how they chose to utilize (nor not utilize) the Federal economic stimulus money.
Click to expand...


You make it seem like the federal government had the stimulus money just laying about and completely at their disposal.  Well they disposed of it alright.  The money was obtained on the backs of future wage earners.  Shame on you and anyone who thinks doing that was a good idea.


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## iamwhatiseem

Ravi said:


> Looks like we'll all be thanking President Obama for turning around the stock market.



Um...I hope your kidding..


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## william the wie

iamwhatiseem said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like we'll all be thanking President Obama for turning around the stock market.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Um...I hope your kidding..
Click to expand...


Causing the collapse with his childish behavior in the debt negotiations? Absolutely right.


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## uscitizen

I just love watching the marketeers running scared.


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## uscitizen

Working class wages are pretty much unchanged once inflation and such is figured in from when the market was strong at 2600.
What has a 10k market brought to the average working American?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAD6Obi7Cag"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAD6Obi7Cag[/ame]


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## BDBoop

uscitizen said:


> I just love watching the marketeers running scared.



Roger that.


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## spectrumc01

GHook93 said:


> spectrumc01 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder what percentage of the population actually has money in the stock market?
> 
> Myself and friends of mine, who are in the same boat, don't give two shits about people who have lost money in the market.  There are those of us who already know that it can't get any worse for the working poor.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You don't have a 401K plan? No IRA? No mutual funds? No government pension plan? Wow I pitty people like you and your friends! The majority of Americans have some investments in the market. The people hurting the most right now are the retirees (not just the rich one), who were going to retire on this money!
> 
> And it's not just investors that are hurting, the companies on the stock market that EMPLOY A LARGE AMOUNT OF AMERICANS are hurting! What do you think they do when they are hurting?
> 
> How old are you? Do you really believe only rich people invest in the market?
> 
> Get your head out of your arse and get a job son!
Click to expand...


I work two jobs, one gives me a 401K and that is all.  Four years ago the company quit contributing to the 401K.  Same company has not given a raise in over five years.  The penalties for trying to use 401K makes it a non asset or viability for anything useful.

As for pitty, you can stick that in your arse.  Take your eyes and look around you at the wal-mart employees or Sears, or Kmart or rany chain store for people instead of employees.  Ask your self what do they make? are they trying to support a family on that money? Look at the gas station employee.  Look at the guy fixing your tire, or working on your car.  Look at the guys and gals who work for the small businesses in this country who can't afford to pay much or provide benefits because they are just that, "Small".  Then wonder to yourself, "Hmmm.... I wonder how their portfolio is doing?"

Your definition of ordinary people investing in the market, is quite liberal.  Given your definition of investing, by including 401K's, and pensions.  I'm talking about the guys and gals who sit around and say "I've got this extra money I think I'll invest in the market."

As for feeling sorry for those who depended on that money to retire.  Are you serious?  Look at how you just spoke to me, and now you want me to feel sorry for you?  The people that are retiring right now are the ones who caused this mess in the first place, you let these idots(politicians, big business, and the uber wealthy) get away with murder, and now you want my generation to bail you out.  well guess what? you already took everything you can get from us.  Pensions are a thing of the past, yours was the last to see them, and then you condoned taking it away from us.  Your generation did away with the majority of manufacturing jobs that your generation got wealthy on.  This isn't bitching this telling you to quit whinning and grow a pair.  The rest of us don't have it as good as you, and work 50-60 hours a week to give our families a little something.  So just remember you could be where I'm at.


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## uscitizen

spectrumc01 said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> spectrumc01 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder what percentage of the population actually has money in the stock market?
> 
> Myself and friends of mine, who are in the same boat, don't give two shits about people who have lost money in the market.  There are those of us who already know that it can't get any worse for the working poor.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You don't have a 401K plan? No IRA? No mutual funds? No government pension plan? Wow I pitty people like you and your friends! The majority of Americans have some investments in the market. The people hurting the most right now are the retirees (not just the rich one), who were going to retire on this money!
> 
> And it's not just investors that are hurting, the companies on the stock market that EMPLOY A LARGE AMOUNT OF AMERICANS are hurting! What do you think they do when they are hurting?
> 
> How old are you? Do you really believe only rich people invest in the market?
> 
> Get your head out of your arse and get a job son!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I work two jobs, one gives me a 401K and that is all.  Four years ago the company quit contributing to the 401K.  Same company has not given a raise in over five years.  The penalties for trying to use 401K makes it a non asset or viability for anything useful.
> 
> As for pitty, you can stick that in your arse.  Take your eyes and look around you at the wal-mart employees or Sears, or Kmart or rany chain store for people instead of employees.  Ask your self what do they make? are they trying to support a family on that money? Look at the gas station employee.  Look at the guy fixing your tire, or working on your car.  Look at the guys and gals who work for the small businesses in this country who can't afford to pay much or provide benefits because they are just that, "Small".  Then wonder to yourself, "Hmmm.... I wonder how their portfolio is doing?"
> 
> Your definition of ordinary people investing in the market, is quite liberal.  Given your definition of investing, by including 401K's, and pensions.  I'm talking about the guys and gals who sit around and say "I've got this extra money I think I'll invest in the market."
> 
> As for feeling sorry for those who depended on that money to retire.  Are you serious?  Look at how you just spoke to me, and now you want me to feel sorry for you?  The people that are retiring right now are the ones who caused this mess in the first place, you let these idots(politicians, big business, and the uber wealthy) get away with murder, and now you want my generation to bail you out.  well guess what? you already took everything you can get from us.  Pensions are a thing of the past, yours was the last to see them, and then you condoned taking it away from us.  Your generation did away with the majority of manufacturing jobs that your generation got wealthy on.  This isn't bitching this telling you to quit whinning and grow a pair.  The rest of us don't have it as good as you, and work 50-60 hours a week to give our families a little something.  So just remember you could be where I'm at.
Click to expand...


More will be joining you.


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## Chris

Ravi said:


> Stocks are back up.
> 
> Where are the threads thanking Obama???



Where are the threads thanking the Fed?

Like I said, yesterday was a buying opportunity.


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## bitterlyclingin

Obama said he wanted to take the "Boom and the Bust" out of the Capitalism's business cycles.
One of the problems that caused the Great Depression was the dissappearance of plain old ordinary cash. People would rush into the Stock Market after the October, 1929 crash thinking it was a "Buying Opportunity" and get subsequently wiped out in the ensuing whipsaws. On top of that the nation had an enormous number of banks fail. Hoover was aware of the burgeoning problem and appealed to Roosevelt to jointly do something to save the banks before Roosevelt's Presidential Inauguration occurred in March, 1933. Roosevelt turned his nose up at and his back to Hoover's appeal. One hundred banks failed between the election in November 1932 and Roosevelts Inauguration, March, 1933. There was so little cash available for people to use, they resorted to printing scrip in places like Salt Lake City.
NASA has been shut down, save for its Mission To Mecca. The Northern Defense Command has been shut down, with its 10,000 Boeing and Lockheed engineers. The Gulf is shut down while two billion US dollars went to Brazil to help finance a George Soros petroleum investment, hoping the Brazilians will let us be their best customer. The EPA is regulating coal fired powerplants out of existence. The government is about to start regulating what you grow in your garden. Boeing builds a brand new plant in South Carolina but the NLRB says Boeing can't use it because it has to keep all its airplane production in its Union represented plants in Washington State. Dodd Frank effectively states that banks can no longer make money.
In 1937, the US Government wasn't going to be able to balance its budget, the result of the Congress overiding Roosevelts veto of the WWI Veterans Bonus Payment and the Supreme Courts ruling that a revenue positive New Deal program was unconstitutional. Then Treasury Secretary Henry Morgenthau calculated how much money the nations' businesses had withheld to themselves and not distributed to their shareholders, money to build new plants, to buy new equipment, to hire and train new employees, to develop new products and told Roosevelt he would write a law enabling the Government to get its hands on it. The result was the Undistributed Profits Tax. The Dow which was at 140 dropped back to 100, unemployment rose from 14% back to 20%. The Little Recession Inside The Great Depression. The total monies involved were only about five billion dollars, a piddling sum by today's standards.  
The R@pe of the Chrysler Bondholders. Chrysler owed the bondholders about 29 billion dollars. Chrysler owed the Union about 8 billion, yet the Union ended up owning 50 per cent of Chrysler after the bankruptcy, the bondholders less than 10 per cent. Had the Chrysler Bankruptcy been allowed to proceed under normal bankruptcy proceedings the bondholders would have recovered substantially more of their 29 billion than they were allowed under the Obama Bankruptcy. That would have been monies that would have been recycled back into the economy to build new plant, buy new equipment, develop new products, hire and train new employees. As it stands right now the Union, in essence, received 21 billion dollars to invest in.....Viagra for its members. Any wonder why the economy's still sick?


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## Chris

The economy is sick because George Bush almost caused another Great Depression.

Obama helped prevent that from happening.

We have had 16 straight months of private sector job growth.


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## BDBoop

What's that you say, Chris? "16 straight months of private sector job growth?"


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## DiAnna

I seriously can't believe some of the posts in this thread.  People are rejoicing over the misfortune of others?  People are cheering because retirees could lose everything they worked their entire lives for in the blink of an eye?  

Sick people, old people unable to work, who've scrimped and saved so they could draw down their 401k's/IRA's to live on modest incomes for the final years of their lives, only to see it wiped out by government ineptitude... some of you are absolutely gleeful about that?

I think the market will rally and stabilize, but not without loss.  What really has my stomach churning is that so many are hoping for complete economic collapse, and the personal catastrophe that will befall millions of people whose only crime was working their whole lives and growing old.  What generates that kind of bitterness and hatred for everyday people who have gray hair and wrinkles?  I can't comprehend it.


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## uscitizen

Where we are has been building for decades.

Globalization is the main culprit.
forcing us to compete with wages in 3rd world countries.

Our govt and corporate entities (pretty much the same thing) ignored this becuase it suited their short term interests and spent govt money to artificially prop up our economy.
Well we have reached the tipping point on that and have nothing to fall back on since it has all been offshored.
We must learn to live with less.


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## william the wie

uscitizen said:


> Where we are has been building for decades.
> 
> Globalization is the main culprit.
> forcing us to compete with wages in 3rd world countries.
> 
> Our govt and corporate entities (pretty much the same thing) ignored this becuase it suited their short term interests and spent govt money to artificially prop up our economy.
> Well we have reached the tipping point on that and have nothing to fall back on since it has all been offshored.
> We must learn to live with less.


That is one driver but it is part of the growth of the US as Hegemon/superpower, globalization at the expense of American workers is an effect not a cause. Any fix that leaves the US as cop of the world as opposed to North America or the Anglosphere but not both is a disaster waiting to happen. Even the two possible exceptions could be a disaster.


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## GHook93

spectrumc01 said:


> I work two jobs, one gives me a 401K and that is all.  Four years ago the company quit contributing to the 401K.  Same company has not given a raise in over five years.  The penalties for trying to use 401K makes it a non asset or viability for anything useful.


I don't think you understand what a 401K is little guy. It builds tax free for RETIREMENT! If you truly have one and contribute to it, then you will be damn glad you did when you retire. 



spectrumc01 said:


> As for pitty, you can stick that in your arse.  Take your eyes and look around you at the wal-mart employees or Sears, or Kmart or rany chain
> store for people instead of employees.


I feel for these people, we should have more manufacturing jobs, which Clinton did a create job of destroying! Clinton contrary to the propaganda was a 10x worse President than Obama and Carter combined!



spectrumc01 said:


> Ask your self what do they make? are they trying to support a family on that money? Look at the gas station employee.  Look at the guy fixing your tire, or working on your car.  Look at the guys and gals who work for the small businesses in this country who can't afford to pay much or provide benefits because they are just that, "Small".  Then wonder to yourself, "Hmmm.... I wonder how their portfolio is doing?"


What is you solution, have the goverment give them one! The great nation of the USSR tried and was one of the biggest busts in history!



spectrumc01 said:


> Your definition of ordinary people investing in the market, is quite liberal.  Given your definition of investing, by including 401K's, and pensions.


Your either young or very stupid! You 401K and IRA and defined pension plan goes up and down based on the market! IT'S DIRECTLY EFFECTED BY THE MARKET! 401K and IRAs are generally tools of the rich they are tools of the middle class saving for retirement. By laughing at the people losing money you are laughing at most Americans, you mental midget! 



spectrumc01 said:


> I'm talking about the guys and gals who sit around and say "I've got this extra money I think I'll invest in the market."


Most of these people aren't the people that are hurting. It's the construction worker who is losing his savings. Its the middle class salesman that losing his IRA. Its the CPA whose childrens education IRA has gone so low he doesn't know how he will pay his kids tuition. Its the small business owner who IRA isn't growing. This is very much a middle class problem! 



spectrumc01 said:


> As for feeling sorry for those who depended on that money to retire.  Are you serious?


No are you serious! Now the middle class caused this! I assume your a communist or a confused anarcho-communist!

 Neg


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## uscitizen

william the wie said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where we are has been building for decades.
> 
> Globalization is the main culprit.
> forcing us to compete with wages in 3rd world countries.
> 
> Our govt and corporate entities (pretty much the same thing) ignored this becuase it suited their short term interests and spent govt money to artificially prop up our economy.
> Well we have reached the tipping point on that and have nothing to fall back on since it has all been offshored.
> We must learn to live with less.
> 
> 
> 
> That is one driver but it is part of the growth of the US as Hegemon/superpower, globalization at the expense of American workers is an effect not a cause. Any fix that leaves the US as cop of the world as opposed to North America or the Anglosphere but not both is a disaster waiting to happen. Even the two possible exceptions could be a disaster.
Click to expand...


yes our worldcop and nationbuilding is also a major mistake.

Becoming a creditor and consumer spending driven nation were also very strong signs of what was coming for us.

Lots of factors have been coming into play for the last 30 years or so and made where we are now inevitable.
the only question is how far we drop and how long we stay down there.
and since we are still on the sam path and have done nothing yet to divert, it will be a long time.

this more of the same philosophy is only making things worse.


----------



## GHook93

konradv said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> spectrumc01 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder what percentage of the population actually has money in the stock market?
> 
> Myself and friends of mine, who are in the same boat, don't give two shits about people who have lost money in the market.  There are those of us who already know that it can't get any worse for the working poor.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You don't have a 401K plan? No IRA? No mutual funds? No government pension plan? Wow I pitty people like you and your friends! The majority of Americans have some investments in the market. The people hurting the most right now are the retirees (not just the rich one), who were going to retire on this money!
> 
> And it's not just investors that are hurting, the companies on the stock market that EMPLOY A LARGE AMOUNT OF AMERICANS are hurting! What do you think they do when they are hurting?
> 
> How old are you? Do you really believe only rich people invest in the market?:cuckoco:
> 
> Get your head out of your arse and get a job son!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Glad I wasn't forced into a 401K and still have a traditional, non-governmental, pension.  Not everyone has the time, know-how or patience to manage one properly.  Forcing everyone to do their own financial planning to that extent, is like saying everyone should be doing their own surgery.  Some things should be left to professionals.
Click to expand...


Non-gov pension? You must be one of the last. Lucky you,

For my 401K, I have my financial planner pick where to invest it (note: my dad is also my financial planner, but the guy holding your life insurance and/or IRA would assist you also). My financial planner holds my IRA, kids education IRA, money market, Universal Life Insurance, individual mutual funds and some of my individual stocks, so its not too much to ask for him to manage (meaning tell me what funds to put my money in) 401K.


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## GHook93

uscitizen said:


> Where we are has been building for decades.
> 
> Globalization is the main culprit.
> forcing us to compete with wages in 3rd world countries.
> 
> Our govt and corporate entities (pretty much the same thing) ignored this becuase it suited their short term interests and spent govt money to artificially prop up our economy.
> Well we have reached the tipping point on that and have nothing to fall back on since it has all been offshored.
> We must learn to live with less.



Globalization was inevitable. We needed to do smart globalization tactics like Canada and Germany utilize!


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## bitterlyclingin

DiAnna said:


> I seriously can't believe some of the posts in this thread.  People are rejoicing over the misfortune of others?  People are cheering because retirees could lose everything they worked their entire lives for in the blink of an eye?
> 
> Sick people, old people unable to work, who've scrimped and saved so they could draw down their 401k's/IRA's to live on modest incomes for the final years of their lives, only to see it wiped out by government ineptitude... some of you are absolutely gleeful about that?
> 
> I think the market will rally and stabilize, but not without loss.  What really has my stomach churning is that so many are hoping for complete economic collapse, and the personal catastrophe that will befall millions of people whose only crime was working their whole lives and growing old.  What generates that kind of bitterness and hatred for everyday people who have gray hair and wrinkles?  I can't comprehend it.



Its de rigeur for the party in power in DC. They came in on this wave of "Now we're finally gonna see someone stick it to the rich, because I'm not so rich and I desperately need to get what I deserve." I've actually heard that from some of my relatives. It doesn't make any difference that they got the sh!tty end of the stick from life because they couldn't put the bottle or the nose candy away, or that somehow their legs magically opened and wouldn't close when they got close to the guy they thought was bringing them the brass ring.It matters little to them that the guy with a couple bucks in his retirement would work a full eight or twelve hour shift on his day job, go home load up the truck and drive over to the site of where the guy's new house was going in, pump the water out of the foundation hole till 2AM so the foundation contractor could get started the next AM with dry feet, go home to sleep a few hours, get up, go put in a full eight hours on his day job, then go off and work another four at his part time job.
"Nosirree, Bob, I'm gonna get mine the easy way, I'm going to elect someone who will steal it from the rich guy and give it to me. Won't even have to lift a finger other than to throw the lever one way or the other to either open or close the voting booth." FDR played Class Warfare to the hilt in his campaigns for electoral office. Its being perfected even further with this current guy.


----------



## Paulie

GHook93 said:


> It's nowdown close to 10K at the moment with another bad day. I don't care what side of the isle your on, the market tanking like this is BAD!!! Political points mean DICK, if the economy gets so low that we can't recover!
> 
> If your not scared by this you should be!



Man up you pussy, the market goes up and it goes down.  It doesn't go up forever.


----------



## bitterlyclingin

DiAnna said:


> I seriously can't believe some of the posts in this thread.  People are rejoicing over the misfortune of others?  People are cheering because retirees could lose everything they worked their entire lives for in the blink of an eye?
> 
> Sick people, old people unable to work, who've scrimped and saved so they could draw down their 401k's/IRA's to live on modest incomes for the final years of their lives, only to see it wiped out by government ineptitude... some of you are absolutely gleeful about that?
> 
> I think the market will rally and stabilize, but not without loss.  What really has my stomach churning is that so many are hoping for complete economic collapse, and the personal catastrophe that will befall millions of people whose only crime was working their whole lives and growing old.  What generates that kind of bitterness and hatred for everyday people who have gray hair and wrinkles?  I can't comprehend it.



(Here's a post from a very wise man, much more wise than I, for he's a Conservative Law Professor at a very Liberal Northeastern University. Here's his take.... You'll have to click the link in order to see the video)

"Obama plays with fire with his relentless class warfare. It tears at the seams which hold a country together. 

Demonizing the top 2% and claiming they dont pay their fair share is not harmless when it is the singular focus of ones political strategy. Isolating corporate jet owners may poll well, but as part of an overall class warfare strategy, it simply increases societal tension. 

The politics of jealously and envy have consequences. This may not make specific politicians responsible for specific acts of violence, but one has to wonder where Obama thinks he is leading the nation with his non-stop stoking of resentment.

Witness this audio, played on the air by Rush today, via the BBC, in which some wayward youth lash out at the rich and say they are showing the rich we do what we want:"


» Class warfare has consequences - Le·gal In·sur·rec·tion


----------



## bitterlyclingin

Another thing, they hung Julius Streicher, the editor and publisher of "Der Sturmer", a pro Nazi, vehemently anti Jewish rag, for Crimes aganst Humanity alongside the other war criminals.
His defense was that he simply published a newspaper giving his opinion, that he never once dropped a poison capsule into a chamber loaded with prisoners nor did he ever once hold a pistol to the head of a Jewish captive and pull the trigger.


----------



## spectrumc01

GHook93 said:


> spectrumc01 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I work two jobs, one gives me a 401K and that is all.  Four years ago the company quit contributing to the 401K.  Same company has not given a raise in over five years.  The penalties for trying to use 401K makes it a non asset or viability for anything useful.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think you understand what a 401K is little guy. It builds tax free for RETIREMENT! If you truly have one and contribute to it, then you will be damn glad you did when you retire.
> 
> 
> 
> spectrumc01 said:
> 
> 
> 
> As for pitty, you can stick that in your arse.  Take your eyes and look around you at the wal-mart employees or Sears, or Kmart or rany chain
> store for people instead of employees.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I feel for these people, we should have more manufacturing jobs, which Clinton did a create job of destroying! Clinton contrary to the propaganda was a 10x worse President than Obama and Carter combined!
> 
> 
> What is you solution, have the goverment give them one! The great nation of the USSR tried and was one of the biggest busts in history!
> 
> 
> Your either young or very stupid! You 401K and IRA and defined pension plan goes up and down based on the market! IT'S DIRECTLY EFFECTED BY THE MARKET! 401K and IRAs are generally tools of the rich they are tools of the middle class saving for retirement. By laughing at the people losing money you are laughing at most Americans, you mental midget!
> 
> 
> 
> spectrumc01 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm talking about the guys and gals who sit around and say "I've got this extra money I think I'll invest in the market."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Most of these people aren't the people that are hurting. It's the construction worker who is losing his savings. Its the middle class salesman that losing his IRA. Its the CPA whose childrens education IRA has gone so low he doesn't know how he will pay his kids tuition. Its the small business owner who IRA isn't growing. This is very much a middle class problem!
> 
> 
> 
> spectrumc01 said:
> 
> 
> 
> As for feeling sorry for those who depended on that money to retire.  Are you serious?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No are you serious! Now the middle class caused this! I assume your a communist or a confused anarcho-communist!
> 
> Neg
Click to expand...


I'm saying that for the last forty years things have been moving in this direction.  Instead of fixing these problems the older generation put it on the next generations back.  Their attitude was, "I got mine, F$%&k everyone else."

Now you want us to help the retiree?? are you crazy?  This has nothing to do with class and everything to do with generational narcissism.  In your eyes it's all about YOU, and has been all about YOU.  You lived your life shitting on everyone else and telling them to "toughen up".  So now you need sympathy, and want it from those you have screwed over by not taking care of the oportunity that was there.  Let's face it the older generation that is retiring has ruined the US for generations to come.  They didn't think of anyone but themselves, and taught their children to do the same.

As for the middle class... wake up.  The poor are not your enemies.  It is those above you who keep the carrot just far enough out of reach so the promise of getting where they are is always right in front of you.  So you keep siding with the rich in their opinion it is the poor persons fault.  You keep voting the way they want you to, and yet you never seem to reach the carrot.  All the while the rich have become the uber rich and the middle class keeps on shrinking.  Quit looking at the poor as the problem and lift your eyes upward, that is where the problem lies.


----------



## bitterlyclingin

Don't look too fondly on that 401k, sonny, that should be regarded as a withering asset in today's political environment. Obama's casting a greedy eye onto that as well as your mortgage deduction and capital gains exemption after you sell the family homestead. He's still got that lady who was screaming "HE's going to pay for my groceries!!!" during the '08 campaign to feed. 
The "Fundamental transformation of America" now underway, 24/7/365, and HE won't stop until HIS goal is achieved and everyone is penniless.


----------



## editec

_Them what has_ in the middle class are systematically being stripped of their wealth.

_Then what never had to begin with_ are now getting even less than they once never got enough of.

Yeah, it's_ that_ bad, folks.

Meanwhile _the smart money_ goes offshore where the ROI is better and the taxes are lower and the workers and governmentsw are easier to dominate.

Both parties are co-conspirators of this ongoing_ long term_ swindle.

_BOTH _PARTIES, folks. Make no mistake about _THAT._


----------



## Chris

BDBoop said:


> What's that you say, Chris? "16 straight months of private sector job growth?"



Yes, that's right.


----------



## BDBoop

Chris said:


> BDBoop said:
> 
> 
> 
> What's that you say, Chris? "16 straight months of private sector job growth?"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, that's right.
Click to expand...


Good news bears repeating.


----------



## TruthSeeker56

Chris said:


> The economy is sick because George Bush almost caused another Great Depression.
> 
> Obama helped prevent that from happening.
> 
> We have had 16 straight months of private sector job growth.



Really?  Are you sure about that?  About 400,000 people PER WEEK are filing for INITIAL unemployment benefits, and there is no end in sight.  

Your claim of "private sector job growth" is a typical leftist ploy to keep people from "peaking behind the curtain".  There is no job "growth".  There are only NET JOB LOSSES.

Trying to put a positive spin on a dire and tragic situation, for politically partisan purposes, is intellectually dishonest and disgusting.  But you leftists are EXPERTS at it, since none of you believe in accountability, integrity, and honesty.

Your hero Obama helped prevent a "great depression" by sinking this country into record debt and record budget deficits, among other things.  Alrighty then.

Here are a couple of links that tell the TRUTH.......not something that you are interested in, but:      

Private Sector Job Gains Losing Ground to Surging Layoffs - CoStar Group

US Initial Jobless Claims SA (INJCJC:IND) Index Performance - Bloomberg


----------

