# Obama math: under new Common Core, 3 x 4 = 11



## ScienceRocks (Aug 18, 2013)

*Obama math: under new Common Core, 3 x 4 = 11*



> Quick: what&#8217;s 3 x 4?
> 
> If you said 11 &#8212; or, hell, if you said 7, pi, or infinity squared &#8212; that&#8217;s just fine under the Common Core, the new national curriculum that the Obama administration will impose on American public school students this fall.
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> ...



Obama math: under new Common Core, 3 x 4 = 11 [VIDEO]


How about teaching the subject??? Is that too hard to ask for? Can we please adopt one of the top 5 countries educational systems. Thank you.


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## boedicca (Aug 18, 2013)

Perhaps the issue is the functional illiteracy of many who "pose" as teachers these days.


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## BobPlumb (Aug 18, 2013)

That was a very short piece of a much longer presentation, and I believe that it was taken out of context.  Having not seen the complete presentation, I cannot be absolutely sure of the context, but I suspect that 3 times 4 is part of a bigger problem such as the area of a rectangle.  A student would be able to score points by explaining that the area of the rectangle is length times width.  Perhaps the student might lose points by making a computational error such as 3 x 4 = 11.   

The context of the OP would have us believe that common core would accept the answer that 3 x 4 = 11 as long as the student could BS a reason why 3 x 4 should equal 11.  I don't believe that is what the speaker is trying to say.  

If asked how to find the area of a 3 by 4 rectangle, the students says multiply the length by the width.  3 x 4 = 11 square units.  The teacher should congratulate the student on the correct method of doing the problem and being able to explain the correct method, while correcting the student on the incorrect computation.


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## CrusaderFrank (Aug 18, 2013)

Democrats need these low information types and they keep lowering the bar


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## TheOldSchool (Aug 18, 2013)

Obviously taken out of context


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## Quantum Windbag (Aug 19, 2013)

BobPlumb said:


> That was a very short piece of a much longer presentation, and I believe that it was taken out of context.  Having not seen the complete presentation, I cannot be absolutely sure of the context, but I suspect that 3 times 4 is part of a bigger problem such as the area of a rectangle.  A student would be able to score points by explaining that the area of the rectangle is length times width.  Perhaps the student might lose points by making a computational error such as 3 x 4 = 11.
> 
> The context of the OP would have us believe that common core would accept the answer that 3 x 4 = 11 as long as the student could BS a reason why 3 x 4 should equal 11.  I don't believe that is what the speaker is trying to say.
> 
> If asked how to find the area of a 3 by 4 rectangle, the students says multiply the length by the width.  3 x 4 = 11 square units.  The teacher should congratulate the student on the correct method of doing the problem and being able to explain the correct method, while correcting the student on the incorrect computation.



Perhaps you are looking for a way to justify government standards that make no sense. 

Can you tell me of a single time in your life as an adult when getting to the wrong place, even if you read the map, helped? Why should teachers tell students that getting the wrong answer is ever acceptable? I wouldn't treat Forest Gump with that much contempt, and I would bitch slap any teacher who tried to do that with my children.


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## idb (Aug 19, 2013)

Quantum Windbag said:


> BobPlumb said:
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> > That was a very short piece of a much longer presentation, and I believe that it was taken out of context.  Having not seen the complete presentation, I cannot be absolutely sure of the context, but I suspect that 3 times 4 is part of a bigger problem such as the area of a rectangle.  A student would be able to score points by explaining that the area of the rectangle is length times width.  Perhaps the student might lose points by making a computational error such as 3 x 4 = 11.
> ...



Yeah, just knowing how to push the right buttons on the calculator is all you need to know.
There can be no point in knowing how a computation  - or any other process -  is actually carried out.


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## BobPlumb (Aug 19, 2013)

Quantum Windbag said:


> BobPlumb said:
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> > That was a very short piece of a much longer presentation, and I believe that it was taken out of context.  Having not seen the complete presentation, I cannot be absolutely sure of the context, but I suspect that 3 times 4 is part of a bigger problem such as the area of a rectangle.  A student would be able to score points by explaining that the area of the rectangle is length times width.  Perhaps the student might lose points by making a computational error such as 3 x 4 = 11.
> ...



Perhaps you need to work on your reading comprehension.  What is it about "Correcting the student on the incorrect computation" do you not understand?


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## CrusaderFrank (Aug 19, 2013)

Only 6% of scientists identify as "Republicans" the rest are from the "I feel that 3*4=11" school of science and education, then you wonder why our infrastructure is crumbling


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## idb (Aug 19, 2013)

CrusaderFrank said:


> Only 6% of scientists identify as "Republicans" the rest are from the "I feel that 3*4=11" school of science and education, then you wonder why our infrastructure is crumbling



You see no value in understanding process rather than simply rote learning of facts?


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## CrusaderFrank (Aug 19, 2013)

idb said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
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> > Only 6% of scientists identify as "Republicans" the rest are from the "I feel that 3*4=11" school of science and education, then you wonder why our infrastructure is crumbling
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I see great value in understanding the process, there's far too little of it. However, given the current degraded state of American education, I see a real potential for abuse.


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## idb (Aug 19, 2013)

CrusaderFrank said:


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Abuse of what?
The understanding of what you're learning?
How so?


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## CrusaderFrank (Aug 19, 2013)

idb said:


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Our young people can't name three founding fathers if you spot them Adams and Jefferson. They can't name the current VP. They think the free marketplace is evil.

Yeah that kind of abuse


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## Defiant1 (Aug 19, 2013)

CrusaderFrank said:


> Only 6% of scientists identify as "Republicans" the rest are from the "I feel that 3*4=11" school of science and education, then you wonder why our infrastructure is crumbling


 

Then how do we know it's 6%?


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## CrusaderFrank (Aug 19, 2013)

Defiant1 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
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> > Only 6% of scientists identify as "Republicans" the rest are from the "I feel that 3*4=11" school of science and education, then you wonder why our infrastructure is crumbling
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It's a made up statistic that Rderp keeps repeating


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## Quantum Windbag (Aug 19, 2013)

BobPlumb said:


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What is it you think I missed? If the question is what is 3*4 and I answer 11, and then tell you that if you take 4 pies and cut them into 3 pieces each you get 11 pieces it might prove I understand the rudimentary process behind multiplication, but it does not mean a teacher should be telling me I get credit for the wrong answer.

Which might explain why, despite your obfuscation, the person in the video was so firm about telling the listeners that they should correct the student. It is good to understand the process, butit is better to be able to use the process correctly.


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## Quantum Windbag (Aug 19, 2013)

idb said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
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> > Only 6% of scientists identify as "Republicans" the rest are from the "I feel that 3*4=11" school of science and education, then you wonder why our infrastructure is crumbling
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I see no value in using the process to get the answer wrong because doing so demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of the process.

I dare you to argue with me on that.


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## TheOldSchool (Aug 19, 2013)

Pauli007001 said:


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Obviously a lunatic raving


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## testarosa (Aug 19, 2013)

Matthew said:


> *Obama math: under new Common Core, 3 x 4 = 11*
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Common Core Math.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL  

A parent's worst nightmare.

We went to the Go which is Common Core math 2 years ago to get it in there for full Core this year.

Here's how it went.

The teachers skipped half the chapters because they couldn't figure out how to teach it because.......  

They teach them adding/subtracting doubles and triples on a hundreds chart, well that pissed me off  - they going to carry around a 100's chart for their whole life?  In the same amount of time you can teach them a hundreds chart you can teach them to carry/borrow, so the parent phone lights up we teach them how to carry and borrow.  

We all get notes to come in so we can learn how to show them the "right" way counting up and down on a freaking 100's chart.

Divide.  You have to multiply to divide now, you don't divide anymore.  Well that's stupid. Taught them to divide the regular way.

We all got notes to come in and learn the "right" way, must multiply not divide!  But it's a division problem -?

Fractions.  They have to draw pictures to compare, well they can't draw 2/16's and get every one equal.  So the stupid answer is wrong every time.  We teach them common denominators.

We're all back at school to learn how to draw and try to teach them how to draw exact-LY no common denominators allowed.

Here's another thing they do.  Word problems, word problems word problems.  Not your regular word problems.  There are 5-7 problems in one problem all of a different skill, so if they miss a key word and multiply instead of divide or whatever else is in the twister, the whole thing is wrong.

I could go on forever with examples of Common Core Fucking Math.

For two years the phone between all the parents of all the grades lights up in the afternoon "what the fuck is this now??"

And school just started back up.

Joy to the Common Core Math.


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## OohPooPahDoo (Aug 19, 2013)

Matthew said:


> *Obama math: under new Common Core, 3 x 4 = 11*
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bullshit


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## OohPooPahDoo (Aug 19, 2013)

BobPlumb said:


> That was a very short piece of a much longer presentation, and I believe that it was taken out of context.  Having not seen the complete presentation, I cannot be absolutely sure of the context, but I suspect that 3 times 4 is part of a bigger problem such as the area of a rectangle.  A student would be able to score points by explaining that the area of the rectangle is length times width.  Perhaps the student might lose points by making a computational error such as 3 x 4 = 11.
> 
> The context of the OP would have us believe that common core would accept the answer that 3 x 4 = 11 as long as the student could BS a reason why 3 x 4 should equal 11.  I don't believe that is what the speaker is trying to say.
> 
> If asked how to find the area of a 3 by 4 rectangle, the students says multiply the length by the width.  3 x 4 = 11 square units.  The teacher should congratulate the student on the correct method of doing the problem and being able to explain the correct method, while correcting the student on the incorrect computation.




Its called 'partial credit' and math teachers have been doing it for years. They did it when I was in grade school 25 years ago. The OP apparently didn't make it past times tables in school and never got to the concept of a real world problem - like take this rectangle and find its area - so the OP has never been exposed to math problems in which partial credit is even possible.


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## daveman (Aug 19, 2013)

Matthew said:


> *Obama math: under new Common Core, 3 x 4 = 11*
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Not just words...words AND oral explanation.  That's important, you know.  Not just one; you gotta have both.



And the dumbing-down of America accelerates at Warp Factor 8.


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## OohPooPahDoo (Aug 19, 2013)

daveman said:


> Matthew said:
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So now America is dumb because the lady speaking out against the Common Core can't talk right.

Got it.


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## dilloduck (Aug 19, 2013)

thay allreddy ficksd speling


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## daveman (Aug 19, 2013)

idb said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
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3 X 4 = 12 should have been taught much earlier than how to find the area of a rectangle.  

Teach the rote facts (like the times tables), then teach process for a more complicated idea.

Even if it hurts little Johnny Snowflake's feelings to get an answer wrong.


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## daveman (Aug 19, 2013)

OohPooPahDoo said:


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If an educator can't get ideas across clearly, an educator can't educate.  I would have thought this was obvious, but I guess not -- at least for some people.

America is dumb because we've been lowering standards for years and dumping the basics in favor of liberal horseshit.

But, hey, I bet you got lots of medals for participation, didn't you?


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## idb (Aug 19, 2013)

CrusaderFrank said:


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That makes no sense. 
What has this got to do with understanding how to compute mathematical equations?


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## testarosa (Aug 19, 2013)

daveman said:


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Money.

Funding.

They can't get it without those test scores so they lower the standards.


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## idb (Aug 19, 2013)

Quantum Windbag said:


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No it doesn't, you can have a fundamental understanding of a process but still get a wrong answer through a simple error. 
Did you always get your quadratic equations dead right at school...even though you understood basically how to work them out?

Besides, that's what education's for - to learn how to get these things right.


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## ScienceRocks (Aug 19, 2013)

OohPooPahDoo said:


> BobPlumb said:
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> > That was a very short piece of a much longer presentation, and I believe that it was taken out of context.  Having not seen the complete presentation, I cannot be absolutely sure of the context, but I suspect that 3 times 4 is part of a bigger problem such as the area of a rectangle.  A student would be able to score points by explaining that the area of the rectangle is length times width.  Perhaps the student might lose points by making a computational error such as 3 x 4 = 11.
> ...



lol, If you knew me and my ability in much higher math you'd laugh at your post. lol We're talking about basic math that needs to be straight forward.


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## testarosa (Aug 19, 2013)

Matthew said:


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So this was your point in the other thread.  Why didn't you just say so?


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## theDoctorisIn (Aug 19, 2013)

What does that video have to do with "Common Core"?


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## daveman (Aug 19, 2013)

testarosa said:


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Bingo.  The liberal solution to failure:  Throw money at it.  If it keeps failing, throw MORE money at it.

I've been assured by the left that criticizing this waste of money on poorer and poorer results means I "hate education".

Of course, liberals are educated by the system they're screwing up, so you really can't expect them to think rationally.


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## OohPooPahDoo (Aug 19, 2013)

Matthew said:


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Writing l=3, w=4, and A = l x w = 3 x 4  = 11, proves that despite the arithmetic error for which the student would be docked credit, the student knows how to compute the area of a square, for which they should receive credit. That's pretty straightforward. 

 In my experience, long computations are frequently wrong the first time they are carried out. The ability to go back in the computation and spot your error is very important, and long computations need to be checked and re-checked many times to ensure accuracy.


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## testarosa (Aug 19, 2013)

Who has kids in school using Common Core curriculum here?

Raise your hands if you're not talking of your asses.


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## testarosa (Aug 19, 2013)

Yep.


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## testarosa (Aug 19, 2013)

You want to talk about school and education.

Bring it.


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## testarosa (Aug 19, 2013)

I don't have all night.

Go:


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## Immanuel (Aug 19, 2013)

CrusaderFrank said:


> idb said:
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I am not so sure the current VP can name the current VP or get the right answer to 3 X 4 = ?

So, what do you expect?

Immie


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## testarosa (Aug 19, 2013)

Immanuel said:


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Okay. I'll jump in.

Funding.

Test passing for money.  Lower standards to pass the test for the money.  Those tests are math/reading.

They don't even get Columbus sailed the ocean blue until 5th.  

Behind the 8 ball with funding for testing.


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## testarosa (Aug 19, 2013)

Now we have Fed funding Common Core.


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## testarosa (Aug 19, 2013)

I don't mean to be a bitch.

But y'all don't know shit about shinola for education.


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## testarosa (Aug 19, 2013)

The privates are going to Common.  The publics are going to Common.

Now there is mixed state and Fed Fed Fed Fed Fed.

There are ZERO options for parents.

It's a fucking cancer.


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## Immanuel (Aug 19, 2013)

testarosa said:


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Can you explain what your answer had to do with my post?  You lost me

Immie


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## testarosa (Aug 19, 2013)

ABeka is replaced with Common.  The PRIVATES are being funded by the Fed for Common Core.

Do you even understand that?


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## testarosa (Aug 19, 2013)

Immanuel said:


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I lost you because you have zero idea about education in our country.


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## Immanuel (Aug 19, 2013)

testarosa said:


> ABeka is replaced with Common.  The PRIVATES are being funded by the Fed for Common Core.
> 
> Do you even understand that?



Still has zilch to do with my post.

Immie


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## testarosa (Aug 19, 2013)

You want me to answer this?

LOLOLOL  I thought the OP was about Common Core.

>>>I am not so sure the current VP can name the current VP or get the right answer to 3 X 4 = ?

So, what do you expect?


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## Immanuel (Aug 19, 2013)

testarosa said:


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I'm not so sure you understand how to read.  I commented on our VP and said nothing at all about our education system and you jump in on something completely off the wall.

Immie


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## Immanuel (Aug 19, 2013)

testarosa said:


> You want me to answer this?
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> LOLOLOL  I thought the OP was about Common Core.
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Did I ask you?  I was commenting on what CF said, not about Common Core.

I do not know anything about Common Core except the little bit presented in the video.  I'm still scratching my head on how you can justify giving credit for a wrong answer.  It kind of defeats the purpose if you ask me.  But liberals have an odd way of justifying just about everything so :shrug:

Immie


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## testarosa (Aug 19, 2013)

Immanuel said:


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Our VP and Core.  

Trying to make the leap from the OP but as usual.  Zero actual discussion about a topic.


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## testarosa (Aug 19, 2013)

You decide.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coRNJluF2O4]Part 1 of 5 Stop the Common Core - YouTube[/ame]


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## testarosa (Aug 19, 2013)

I'm going to fight the fight for our next generation and bitch my head off to every single rep I can reach.


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## testarosa (Aug 19, 2013)

It used to be by DISTRICT - you can vote that.

Now it is federal even to the privates.

I don't know why people don't understand that.


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## testarosa (Aug 19, 2013)

Whenever people can figure it out.

Too late!


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## testarosa (Aug 19, 2013)

Immanuel said:


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You got caught in my crosshairs.

Sorry.


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## BobPlumb (Aug 19, 2013)

It is very important that students have basic knowledge such as knowing their multiplication table.  3 x 4 does not equal 11.  It makes no sense to give a student any credit for trying to explain why 3 x 4 should equal 11.  Of course  3 x 4 = 12!  The video is edited to make it seem like 3 x 4 is the math problem being discussed.  That makes the speaker seem foolish.

People may agree or disagree with the concept of giving partial credit when a student shows promise with a complex math problem but gets the problem incorrect by having a brain fart with a basic computation.  But take a second look at that video.  The speaker is not saying that 3 x 4 = 11 is acceptable as a correct answer.  But the video sure is edited to make us think that is what she is saying.


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## idb (Aug 19, 2013)

BobPlumb said:


> It is very important that students have basic knowledge such as knowing their multiplication table.  3 x 4 does not equal 11.  It makes no sense to give a student any credit for trying to explain why 3 x 4 should equal 11.  Of course  3 x 4 = 12!  The video is edited to make it seem like 3 x 4 is the math problem being discussed.  That makes the speaker seem foolish.
> 
> People may agree or disagree with the concept of giving partial credit when a student shows promise with a complex math problem but gets the problem incorrect by having a brain fart with a basic computation.  But take a second look at that video.  The speaker is not saying that 3 x 4 = 11 is acceptable as a correct answer.  But the video sure is edited to make us think that is what she is saying.



The nuances are a little too hard to understand I think Bob.
Logic and critical thinking are actively discouraged in some circles.


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## testarosa (Aug 19, 2013)

BobPlumb said:


> It is very important that students have basic knowledge such as knowing their multiplication table.  3 x 4 does not equal 11.  It makes no sense to give a student any credit for trying to explain why 3 x 4 should equal 11.  Of course  3 x 4 = 12!  The video is edited to make it seem like 3 x 4 is the math problem being discussed.  That makes the speaker seem foolish.
> 
> People may agree or disagree with the concept of giving partial credit when a student shows promise with a complex math problem but gets the problem incorrect by having a brain fart with a basic computation.  But take a second look at that video.  The speaker is not saying that 3 x 4 = 11 is acceptable as a correct answer.  But the video sure is edited to make us think that is what she is saying.



Kids in Common Core curriculum?



You ain't seen nothin' like this before.


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## testarosa (Aug 19, 2013)

idb said:


> BobPlumb said:
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> > It is very important that students have basic knowledge such as knowing their multiplication table.  3 x 4 does not equal 11.  It makes no sense to give a student any credit for trying to explain why 3 x 4 should equal 11.  Of course  3 x 4 = 12!  The video is edited to make it seem like 3 x 4 is the math problem being discussed.  That makes the speaker seem foolish.
> ...


 
Kids in Common Core?


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## testarosa (Aug 19, 2013)

Quantum Windbag said:


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Good for you.

Too bad the next generation won't know how.


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## idb (Aug 19, 2013)

Quantum Windbag said:


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Doing the maths right?
What does that mean?
Doing calculations maybe?
How do you know the right calculations to use or even how to carry them out correctly?
Learning maths includes knowing how to get to correct conclusion.

But I know you know that.


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## idb (Aug 19, 2013)

dilloduck said:


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Of course.


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## idb (Aug 19, 2013)

Quantum Windbag said:


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How so?
You make no sense.


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## idb (Aug 19, 2013)

Quantum Windbag said:


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Riiiiighht.


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## BobPlumb (Aug 19, 2013)

idb said:


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If you misspell one word in a 20,000 word essay, then the entire essay must be wrong.  Big fat F


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## dilloduck (Aug 19, 2013)

idb said:


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So is the problem that kids don't know the processes or that they don't even have the first clue ? Are you going to teach them the process by which the alphabet came about or start with the ABC's ?
People are coming out of school and they're dumb as a box of rocks.


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## idb (Aug 19, 2013)

BobPlumb said:


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Well, if you say so...


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## testarosa (Aug 19, 2013)

Well this thread has been an enlightening and informative discussion on the topic.

Good try Matthew.


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## BobPlumb (Aug 19, 2013)

idb said:


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Just applying the same logic as some of the others on this thread!


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## idb (Aug 19, 2013)

dilloduck said:


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Of course you need to have a grounding in the basics.
You can't do anything without knowing the basic components...you can't become a Formula 1 driver without knowing which pedals are which and what they do when you press on them.
But you also need that basic knowledge just to get to the shop and back.


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## idb (Aug 19, 2013)

BobPlumb said:


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Sorry Bob...I should recognise sarcasm since I use it enough myself.


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## testarosa (Aug 19, 2013)

dilloduck said:


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We teach them how to pass a test.  The school test scores gives them money. F no money.     
We test them in April for a full school year. The teachers cram them on how to pass the test.  

That has nothing to do with CC.  That's a different, well this, topic.


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## testarosa (Aug 19, 2013)

The problems with education is not rocket science except for the old ego fogies.


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## Zoom-boing (Aug 19, 2013)

You need both to understand how to do the math and also understand how to to the process. Getting the right answer without understand how you got it really isn't any good; understanding the process then screwing up the basic math isn't any good.

If I know that 3x4 = 12 but do not know to multiply L x W, then I won't get the right answer because I don't understand the process of _how_.

If I understand to the process and know to multiply L x W (3 x 4) but give 11 as the answer, then I won't get the right answer because I didn't do the math right.

As someone who sucks ... and I mean SUCKS at math ... I struggled with it all through grade school, and summer school before high school, high school and college.  Had to take the 'refresher' course before I could take the math I needed for college.  Seriously, my brain doesn't do math well at all.  

I remember not understanding the process and therefore not getting the right answer, so I got the whole thing wrong. I remember understanding the process (at some point, sometimes, something clicked) then I'd screw it up by doing the basic, simple math part of it wrong.  And it would happen again, and again, and again.  The nuns marked it wrong.  Later, in college, the teachers would give me partial credit.

Thing is, when I was young and I made a dumb math mistake and I'd get the whole answer wrong?  I always thought it was because I didn't understand the process ... even when that part was right.  If the teachers or my parents went over it with me, I'd see my mistake.  But when the next word problem came along?  Lather, rinse, repeat. 

I can't do math in my head either.

I love calculators.


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## idb (Aug 19, 2013)

Zoom-boing said:


> You need both to understand how to do the math and also understand how to to the process. Getting the right answer without understand how you got it really isn't any good; understanding the process then screwing up the basic math isn't any good.
> 
> If I know that 3x4 = 12 but do not know to multiply L x W, then I won't get the right answer because I don't understand the process of _how_.
> 
> ...



Personally, I have a fairly literal way of understanding things.
I like to be able to visualise something in my head.
If I can work out a way of seeing in my minds eye how an equation works then I can understand it.

Something like quantum mechanics will probably always be a mystery to me because I can't visualise how it works.


----------



## Sunshine (Aug 19, 2013)

Quantum Windbag said:


> BobPlumb said:
> 
> 
> > That was a very short piece of a much longer presentation, and I believe that it was taken out of context.  Having not seen the complete presentation, I cannot be absolutely sure of the context, but I suspect that 3 times 4 is part of a bigger problem such as the area of a rectangle.  A student would be able to score points by explaining that the area of the rectangle is length times width.  Perhaps the student might lose points by making a computational error such as 3 x 4 = 11.
> ...



I had one to tell me that my son's abominable handwriting would not be an issue because computers would fix everything.  He is almost 40.  This has been going on a LONG time.


----------



## Sunshine (Aug 19, 2013)

idb said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> > Only 6% of scientists identify as "Republicans" the rest are from the "I feel that 3*4=11" school of science and education, then you wonder why our infrastructure is crumbling
> ...



I would want the person who is spending hundreds of thousands of my dollars building a house to have had some 'rote teaching of facts.'


----------



## idb (Aug 19, 2013)

Sunshine said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> > CrusaderFrank said:
> ...



Sure, as I said above, you need to know the basics.
But what if each piece of timber delivered is not the exact required length?
How can he work out what length to cut it to to ensure that everything is kept square (or whatever angle is required)?


----------



## Sunshine (Aug 19, 2013)

idb said:


> Zoom-boing said:
> 
> 
> > You need both to understand how to do the math and also understand how to to the process. Getting the right answer without understand how you got it really isn't any good; understanding the process then screwing up the basic math isn't any good.
> ...



If you were my patient in a hospital, I would be able to calculate your IV drip rate, you medicine to the nearest nanogram, and count out all your pills for the day.  A lot of nurses these days cannot do any of that.  We always gave a math question on our tests.   Here was my question:

You are a community health nurse.   You have an indigent patient who needs medication but has no insurance. The doctors order reads: Zyprexa 20mg by mouth every night.  You have on hand samples of Zyprexa the pharm rep left last visit.  Each bottle contains 7 ten milligram pills.  It takes 28 days to get the patient on Tenncare.  How many bottles will you give him to last until he has insurance.  They would turn in two pages of equations and still have the wrong answer.

Another.  Doctors order says:  Haldol Decanoate 150mg IM every 4 weeks.  You have on hand Haldol Decanoate in 100mg/1ml vials.  How many ml do you give the patient IM every 4 weeks?  I can figure these in my head.  But your nurse likely will not be able to solve either one of them.

Scary isn't it?


----------



## idb (Aug 19, 2013)

Sunshine said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> > Zoom-boing said:
> ...



It's a shame alright.
The greatest risk, as I see it, is relying so much on mathemalculating machines that the operator can't even see if an answer is reasonable or not.

Mind you, I can't get the answer to the first problem Sunshine.
Is there something missing...do I need to know the dosage or is that something a nurse would just know?


----------



## Quantum Windbag (Aug 19, 2013)

idb said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > idb said:
> ...



How do you know what calculations to use? How about the fact that you just learned the formulas last week? Would you consider that a clue, or would you expect the test to cover the formulas you will be getting next week?

It is a math test, you use the stuff you learned in the class. If you want to discuss something sensible that applies to the real world you are going to have to start by admitting the right answer counts.


----------



## Quantum Windbag (Aug 19, 2013)

idb said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > idb said:
> ...



You want me to explain to you how calculus makes getting the right answer easier yet you want to insist that being able to explain how you got the answer is more important than the answer?


----------



## Quantum Windbag (Aug 19, 2013)

idb said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > idb said:
> ...



Experience tells me that catching a ball in a basket is stupid because balls bounce.


----------



## Quantum Windbag (Aug 19, 2013)

BobPlumb said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> > dilloduck said:
> ...



You might have a hard time grasping this, but English and Math are two different things.


----------



## idb (Aug 19, 2013)

Quantum Windbag said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...



You're dead right of course.
You will use the formulae that you learned in class.
That's why it's important to learn those formulae in class and your comprehension of the appropriateness and application is tested.
Where are we disagreeing again?


----------



## idb (Aug 19, 2013)

Quantum Windbag said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...



I can't recall insisting any such thing.


----------



## Quantum Windbag (Aug 19, 2013)

idb said:


> Sunshine said:
> 
> 
> > idb said:
> ...



Generally, you look at the plans and read the numbers somebody else figured out. Then, when you know it won't work because the guy who did all the calculating learned that it was more important to understand the process then get the right answer, you just build it the way it is supposed to be built. 

The really stupid part I see in your argument is your insistence that, unless you understand the process, you can't get the answer. If it actually worked that way it would take a degree in mathematics to wire a house because it would take that level of education before you describe the way an alternating current exists as various levels of current based on the point of its cycle, and how that quite real square root of negative one can kill you.


----------



## Quantum Windbag (Aug 19, 2013)

idb said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > idb said:
> ...



We disagree because I insist that the right answer counts.


----------



## idb (Aug 19, 2013)

Quantum Windbag said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> > Sunshine said:
> ...



That isn't my insistence at all.

My insistence is that there's value in understanding rather than just reciting.


----------



## idb (Aug 19, 2013)

Quantum Windbag said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...



Then there's no disagreement at all.
I suspect the real reason we disagree is because I'm debating against a devil's advocate.
Fair enough.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Aug 19, 2013)

Sunshine said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> > Zoom-boing said:
> ...



I didn't read any further in the thread.  Is the answer to the first problem:  the patient would need a total of 56 10mg pills, so 8 bottles total would be needed?  



I have no clue on the second question ... I don't even know what IM stands for.  

Don't they teach how to do these types of things in nursing school?  Yeah, in addition to what you'd learn in school in general ... but with ml and IM and all ... don't they teach that?


----------



## dilloduck (Aug 19, 2013)

Zoom-boing said:


> Sunshine said:
> 
> 
> > idb said:
> ...



damn ZB----what an effort ! You can be my nurse any day. To hell with the IM and ml stuff.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Aug 19, 2013)

dilloduck said:


> Zoom-boing said:
> 
> 
> > Sunshine said:
> ...


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## Quantum Windbag (Aug 19, 2013)

Zoom-boing said:


> Sunshine said:
> 
> 
> > idb said:
> ...



You don't need to know that IM stands for intramuscular, all you need to do is figure out that 1.5 ml is equal to 150 mg.


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## skye (Aug 19, 2013)

2+2 is not 5


that's all I know!

Obama's maths are stupid!


----------



## OohPooPahDoo (Aug 20, 2013)

skye said:


> 2+2 is not 5
> 
> 
> that's all I know!
> ...



Hey look! I tot of sometin tooped! 'dat mean Obamadummy tooopeddd!!! ARRGHH!!!!! hah ha ha! Obamadummy tooped! ha ha ha!


----------



## idb (Aug 20, 2013)

skye said:


> 2+2 is not 5
> 
> 
> that's all I know!
> ...



What's wrong with Obama's maths?


----------



## Sunshine (Aug 20, 2013)

Quantum Windbag said:


> Zoom-boing said:
> 
> 
> > Sunshine said:
> ...



Ding ding ding...........we have a winner!


----------



## Moonglow (Aug 20, 2013)

Matthew said:


> *Obama math: under new Common Core, 3 x 4 = 11*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's called Logic and the text is trying to get you to understand truth in expressions, such as math, language, etc., catching on yet?


----------



## Sunshine (Aug 20, 2013)

Zoom-boing said:


> Sunshine said:
> 
> 
> > idb said:
> ...



It is not possible to teach nursing math to someone who scored a whopping 5 on the ACT, even if they did finally get their C in remedial math after 3 tries.  That is what colleges are having to cope with these days thanks to the liberal philosophy of social promotion even in college.  They simply forget that there ARE people who need to know how to read, write, and do math.  I had a nursing student who got to third semester nursing and could not read.  That means she was socially promoted through all her science  and math classes and 2 semesters of nursing before she met up with someone who had the intestinal fortitude to flunk her ass out of school.....ME.


----------



## Sunshine (Aug 20, 2013)

Moonglow said:


> Matthew said:
> 
> 
> > *Obama math: under new Common Core, 3 x 4 = 11*
> ...



That is a different class altogether.  It should not be mixed up with something as important as math.  Many Americans are already handicapped in that area as it is.


----------



## Moonglow (Aug 20, 2013)

my kids had trig, algebra and geometry in school, for some reason it's required, me, I had basic algebra in 8th grade, no more math was required.


----------



## Moonglow (Aug 20, 2013)

Sunshine said:


> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> > Matthew said:
> ...



Well I don't know why, I teach my kids that math is in everything you do all day and night.
I was a high school drop out and still passed electronics school and we didn't use calculators back then.


----------



## Sunshine (Aug 20, 2013)

Moonglow said:


> Sunshine said:
> 
> 
> > Moonglow said:
> ...



So you think you can teach math to someone who scored a 5 on the ACT and took 3 tries in remedial math to get their C.  You are a valuable commodity.  Colleges everywhere are looking for you.  Get crackin!


----------



## Lovebears65 (Aug 20, 2013)

Tell  us again Libs how this would not anger you if it was ok to tell your child the wrong answer is right  .. I get the explanation part  but tell them no try again when they get the CORRECT answer then ask them to explain how they got it.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Aug 20, 2013)

Well see, nobody likes to have their feelings hurt. But Liberals would rather glorify failure than to extol success.


----------



## Quantum Windbag (Aug 20, 2013)

Moonglow said:


> Sunshine said:
> 
> 
> > Moonglow said:
> ...



We did use slide rules though.

Come to think of it, knowing how a slide rule works taught me more about math than anything I learned from math classes in school.


----------



## Quantum Windbag (Aug 20, 2013)

Sunshine said:


> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> > Sunshine said:
> ...



I can teach it to them, if they want to learn.


----------



## Mad Scientist (Aug 20, 2013)

People are harder to control when they're smart.


----------



## g5000 (Aug 20, 2013)

Lovebears65 said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=DW0VxxoCrNo
> 
> 
> Tell  us again Libs how this would not anger you if it was ok to tell your child the wrong answer is right  .. I get the explanation part  but tell them no try again when they get the CORRECT answer then ask them to explain how they got it.



The speaker provides no evidence for this claim.

Some of these common core opponents came to my town.  They are some serious tin foil hat kind of people.  Conspiracy theories involving Bill Gates, sooper sekrit societies, etc.


----------



## Sunshine (Aug 20, 2013)

Quantum Windbag said:


> Sunshine said:
> 
> 
> > Moonglow said:
> ...



I had so many who had been passed when they didn't make the grade because they were 'trying real hard.'  Those people don't want to learn.  They just want you to pass them.


----------



## Plasmaball (Aug 20, 2013)

g5000 said:


> Lovebears65 said:
> 
> 
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=DW0VxxoCrNo
> ...



omg then i can see how we must lump every liberal with them. 

Since we are playing this game in the OP. She is a fucking racist tea party member.


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## Quantum Windbag (Aug 20, 2013)

Sunshine said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > Sunshine said:
> ...



Bingo, they have to learn that trying doesn't count, all that counts is getting the answer.


----------



## bodecea (Aug 20, 2013)

Lovebears65 said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=DW0VxxoCrNo
> 
> 
> Tell  us again Libs how this would not anger you if it was ok to tell your child the wrong answer is right  .. I get the explanation part  but tell them no try again when they get the CORRECT answer then ask them to explain how they got it.



Tell us again, by showing examples embedded in the easily accessable Common Core curriculum how your OP is the Truth.


----------



## ScreamingEagle (Aug 20, 2013)

common core is simply more dumbed-down centralized education....it's time for parents and States to opt out...


----------



## Lovebears65 (Aug 20, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> Well see, nobody likes to have their feelings hurt. But Liberals would rather glorify failure than to extol success.



Obama next step to Dumbing down America !!


----------



## bodecea (Aug 20, 2013)

Lovebears65 said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > Well see, nobody likes to have their feelings hurt. But Liberals would rather glorify failure than to extol success.
> ...



Obama created Common Core?


----------



## rightwinger (Aug 20, 2013)

7 X 13 = 28

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLprXHbn19I]Abbott And Costello 13 X 7 is 28 - YouTube[/ame]


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## g5000 (Aug 20, 2013)

Common Core State Standards Initiative | Mathematics | Home | Mathematics


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## g5000 (Aug 20, 2013)

Debunking Common Core State Standard Myths


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## iamwhatiseem (Aug 20, 2013)

Common core principle #1... it is more admirable for a child to explain why they can't understand the lessons, than to be naturally smart and understand the lessons easily.


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## g5000 (Aug 20, 2013)

What English classes should look like in Common Core era



> The claim that the Common Core State Standards have abolished the teaching of literature makes for a great headline.  Who wouldnt get hot and bothered over the idea that high school students will no longer be reading Romeo and Juliet, The Crucible, and Invisible Man? I would be up in arms, too. Fortunately, nothing in the standards supports this claim.


----------



## Mustang (Aug 20, 2013)

g5000 said:


> Lovebears65 said:
> 
> 
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=DW0VxxoCrNo
> ...



Yeah, they're all over the place, including, naturally, AM radio.

They're people who normally would have little if any influence because of a lack of education and/or expertise on a given subject.  But let them take to the airwaves with the latest conservative conspiracy theory, and they can fill town halls and other public forums.  Overnight they go from relative nobodies to people whose phones ring off the hook and whose email addresses fill up daily.  In other words, they become important.  That kind of sudden influence is like a narcotic.  And naturally, they're hooked.

On a lighter mathematical note, here's a joke for everyone...

What's the absolute value of a conservative opinion when it comes to matters of education and the value of an education in any decision making process? 

|0|


----------



## Wry Catcher (Aug 20, 2013)

Lovebears65 said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=DW0VxxoCrNo
> 
> 
> Tell  us again Libs how this would not anger you if it was ok to tell your child the wrong answer is right  .. I get the explanation part  but tell them no try again when they get the CORRECT answer then ask them to explain how they got it.



You're an idiot.  That's really the only way to describe your interpretation of this thread after I read the link.


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## g5000 (Aug 20, 2013)

It is unfortunate Critical Thinking is not part of our education system.  The lack of it definitely shows around here.


----------



## Clementine (Aug 20, 2013)

Try volunteering at your child's or grandchild's school and you'll see for yourself just how screwed up our education system is getting.     The schools near the bigger cities are worse, in my experience.   Maybe because there are so many students and many come from the poor neighborhoods.   Seems to be a link between undisciplined children and welfare.    Coincidence????     When parents aren't involved, it shows!    And children do imitate their parents.   If children don't have role models who go to work and are productive, then they aren't likely to be productive either.   

The outcome based education, now referred to as common core, has been creeping into schools for years now.   I believe it started with the Clinton administration.   It is about making kids feel good about themselves and no one thought about the long term effects.   Making the child feel smarter for getting the wrong answer now means they will fail as adults.    How will it go over at the bank when the person can't balance their checkbook and they have to pay overdraft and bounced check fees?    Won't feel too good then, will it?

Children are our future and dumbing them down by accepting ignorance isn't going to make the future very bright.    

I went with my sister-in-law to my nieces parent teacher conference a few years back.    My niece had been having trouble with math and English.    She was in 8th grade and reading at a 3rd grade level.   The teacher said that if students can read at a 5th grade level by graduation, that would be sufficient.   Really??    I don't know how they came to that conclusion, but it was the norm for schools to pass students who really didn't deserve it.    

Are we going to keep pretending that it's okay for children not to learn?    That no one should tell them they need to get with the program and start paying attention, doing their homework and working to improve?    Why is that a bad thing these days?    Seems the only things children have to learn is that liberalism is good and everything else is bad.   They don't let them slide on that, do they?    I've seen some tests given in school where the students are taught that Republicans don't care about people and redistribution of wealth is a good thing.    

Indoctrination doesn't require that students become intelligent.   It merely seeks to make them obedient.


----------



## Wry Catcher (Aug 20, 2013)

g5000 said:


> Debunking Common Core State Standard Myths



Thanks.  I'd refer the author of the OP to your link but I'm certain she would still not understand.


----------



## Mustang (Aug 20, 2013)

Clementine said:


> Try volunteering at your child's or grandchild's school and you'll see for yourself just how screwed up our education system is getting.     The schools near the bigger cities are worse, in my experience.   Maybe because there are so many students and many come from the poor neighborhoods.   Seems to be a link between undisciplined children and welfare.    Coincidence????     When parents aren't involved, it shows!    And children do imitate their parents.   If children don't have role models who go to work and are productive, then they aren't likely to be productive either.
> 
> The outcome based education, now referred to as common core, has been creeping into schools for years now.   I believe it started with the Clinton administration.   It is about making kids feel good about themselves and no one thought about the long term effects.   Making the child feel smarter for getting the wrong answer now means they will fail as adults.    How will it go over at the bank when the person can't balance their checkbook and they have to pay overdraft and bounced check fees?    Won't feel too good then, will it?
> 
> ...



People who believe what they hear on talk radio are in no position to preach to others about the dumbing down of America.

I listen for the entertainment value (and the occasional shock value, I must admit).  It's a hobby more than anything.  I get a pretty good laugh out of it most of the time.  And since I don't watch TV anymore and haven't for about 3 years (because it's so unfailingly ignorant even compared to twenty years ago), it's a guilty pleasure.

It's mostly propaganda, rumor, fear-mongering, and just plain lies.  But, in and of itself, that doesn't bother me.  What bothers me more is that it's constantly being painted and projected as if it's insightful erudition when it's nothing of the kind.

But do you know what bothers me the most?  It's the people who call in and quite obviously blindly believe anything and everything they hear over the airwaves.  Now, THAT is scary!


----------



## g5000 (Aug 20, 2013)

I heard it on the radio/TV/internet and it coincides with my belief system.  It must be true.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Aug 20, 2013)

Quantum Windbag said:


> Zoom-boing said:
> 
> 
> > Sunshine said:
> ...





They tried to teach us metric when I was in 5th grade, eons ago.  Uh, no.  I don't do metric.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Aug 20, 2013)

So, did I get the math part right on Sunshine's first word problem?


----------



## ScreamingEagle (Aug 20, 2013)

rightwinger said:


> 7 X 13 = 28
> 
> Abbott And Costello 13 X 7 is 28 - YouTube



this is probably how Dumbocrats figure their budgets....  

nothing wrong with creative/critical thinking....and this was a great example....
but getting the right numbers is also critical....


----------



## boilermaker55 (Aug 20, 2013)

Try to see the entire picture before going off on a tangent. It is all about big money for text book companies and for test printing companies. It is exactly like NCLB, it makes money for those with high paid lobbyists. 
But then you are so bent on keeping a conspiracy theory going, have fun.


----------



## Wry Catcher (Aug 20, 2013)

ScreamingEagle said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > 7 X 13 = 28
> ...



You should have applied critical thinking.  Getting the number using the correct process is what is being taught.  Getting the number correct is as easy as looking at your neighbors answers and if they agree writing it down.


----------



## Connery (Aug 20, 2013)

*Merged threads*


----------



## Mac1958 (Aug 20, 2013)

.

Well, fuck it.  As long as they "feel good" about themselves.  That's all that matters.

Confident Idiots: American Students Growing More Confident, Less Capable

The decay continues.

.


----------



## Quantum Windbag (Aug 20, 2013)

g5000 said:


> It is unfortunate Critical Thinking is not part of our education system.  The lack of it definitely shows around here.



Is that why you started talking about literature in a thread about math?


----------



## Sunshine (Aug 20, 2013)

idb said:


> Sunshine said:
> 
> 
> > idb said:
> ...



 [MENTION=27296]idb[/MENTION]

Yes, I left off the dose but when I saw that I corrected it.  You are right about calculating machines.  Nurses no longer have to figure drip rates themselves.  The machines do it for them.  There are many stupid mistakes in hospitals and some of them are fatal.  It isn't just nurses, but since I AM a nurse, I am far harder on them than anyone else.  Dennis Quaid's baby was overdosed on heparin.  There was an infant in Colorado I believe who was overdosed on penicillin and died.  I know the nurses AND the pharmacist in Colorado were charged by the DA with CRIMINAL negligence.  That is out of the ordinary as these things usually fall within the civil and administrative realm.  But if you do something that you know or should know is wrong that rises to the level of criminal negligence.   When I worked a cancer floor we used pumps that delivered an automatic dose of medicine.  One of the nurses installed a new syringe of morphine in the pump.  The pharmacy in order to make it last longer had changed the concentration to a stronger concentration and circled the change in red.  The nurse did not adjust the pump.  That actually killed the man.  When the error was discovered the doctor was going to order naltrexone to block the morphine, but the man had been screaming in pain for two days and his family just wanted to let him go head and die.  That is what was done.  But had this person not been an end stage cancer patient the nurse likely would have been fired, sued, and lost her job.  I never made an error like that, but I was so overly cautious that I usually did my calculations 3 times.

Nurses have a system of checking insulin and heparin with another nurse to be sure they are correct.  Likely the one who overdosed the Quaid baby ignored that procedure.  One time and one time only I was tempted not to check a dose of insulin because we were busy.  But I did do the check.  I had drawn up the wrong insulin.  When it peaked it would have killed the patient.  There is a reason that people in health care need to know how to do math and procedures are in place for a reason!  The more we dumb down education, and the more technically dependent we become, the greater the danger to your life.  Machines can malfunction.  I saw one malfunction once and pump a day's worth of lipids into a patient in 1 hour. Thank God that wasn't mine either.  I was always just VERY very cautious and I never took the job lightly.  Nurses are taught to look at a med dose 3 times before they give it.  A couple of times I discovered I had made an error on the 3rd look.  Now, they like to act like they are too busy to take that 3 seconds in the interest of your life.


----------



## Quantum Windbag (Aug 20, 2013)

Zoom-boing said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > Zoom-boing said:
> ...



Metric is easy.


----------



## Quantum Windbag (Aug 20, 2013)

Zoom-boing said:


> So, did I get the math part right on Sunshine's first word problem?



Yep, but I would hate to have to explain it to the idiot that can't read.


----------



## Sunshine (Aug 20, 2013)

Quantum Windbag said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...



Students where I taught have to make 70% on their nursing math test to pass.  The school I went to requires the student to make 95% to pass.  You get three tries.  If you don't pass it in 3 tries you are out.   So when you go to the hospital, you should wonder which standard your nurse was held to.


----------



## Zoom-boing (Aug 20, 2013)

Quantum Windbag said:


> Zoom-boing said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...



So I've heard.



Quantum Windbag said:


> Zoom-boing said:
> 
> 
> > So, did I get the math part right on Sunshine's first word problem?
> ...



  Chalk one up for ZB.


----------



## regent (Aug 21, 2013)

I wonder if there is any correlation between common core and these posts? For example, it seems few people tried to research the reason for common core, they immediately made it political they made it into Obama's common core or a federal mandate. If it was not Obama or the feds, then who decided common core should be taught and why? In effect they they tried to solve the problem without a formula, but did they? How good was their reasoning?  

 So without politics, can anyone tell us what common core is, and why 45 or so states want it? 
And the real baffler for many, why does common core not give students all the means to solve problems? Will students come closer to the correct answer than so many posters with their political reasons?


----------



## Quantum Windbag (Aug 21, 2013)

regent said:


> I wonder if there is any correlation between common core and these posts? For example, it seems few people tried to research the reason for common core, they immediately made it political they made it into Obama's common core or a federal mandate. If it was not Obama or the feds, then who decided common core should be taught and why? In effect they they tried to solve the problem without a formula, but did they? How good was their reasoning?
> 
> So without politics, can anyone tell us what common core is, and why 45 or so states want it?
> And the real baffler for many, why does common core not give students all the means to solve problems? Will students come closer to the correct answer than so many posters with their political reasons?



I have no idea what it is, but I would guess the states that want it want it because the feds are throwing money at them if they take it.


----------



## Sunshine (Aug 22, 2013)

Quantum Windbag said:


> Zoom-boing said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...



I did not find metric to be difficult either.  IMO, it is much simpler than units of measurement used in the US.  It is more precise when you figure things like med doses.  Being based upon 10 and its multiples means it is super simple.  But that's just me.


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## Sunshine (Aug 22, 2013)

Quantum Windbag said:


> regent said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder if there is any correlation between common core and these posts? For example, it seems few people tried to research the reason for common core, they immediately made it political they made it into Obama's common core or a federal mandate. If it was not Obama or the feds, then who decided common core should be taught and why? In effect they they tried to solve the problem without a formula, but did they? How good was their reasoning?
> ...



Winner, winner, chicken dinner.


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## bodecea (Aug 22, 2013)

boedicca said:


> Perhaps the issue is the functional illiteracy of many who "pose" as teachers these days.



Do you think it is the classroom teachers who have designed Common Core?


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