# Hoarders



## Luddly Neddite (Aug 25, 2013)

Since getting home today, I've been watching the program, Hoarders, Buried Alive. I had never seen it before and decided to watch it because I visited a hoarder today. I had been told it was bad before I got there but I was absolutely stunned at what I saw. 

A long time, widowed woman and her 30-some son live in this very nice bi-level house. They're both very heavy smokers so breathing is pretty much impossible. Just inside the front door, you can look up to the top level but there are boxes and stuff right to the edge of the steps so going up there is not possible. 

She invited us down to the lower level where we walked past a little alcove where there was a TV playing and her son sitting at the end of a couch that was piled high with stuff.There were boxes, VCR tapes and overflowing ashtrays.

The next room was a kitchen where there was a table with her computer on it, two chairs besides the one where she sits and a refrigerator. The stove was piled high but it looked like they use a microwave. More ashtrays and filth everywhere.

Both are overweight and diabetic. She sort of served coffee, key lime pie and brownies. The coffee was instant, heated in the microwave and the desserts were store bought. As we sat there, she ate most of the key lime pie while her son ate most of the brownies.

I once knew another hoarder where you had to shimmy inside sideways and you literally stepped up onto the filth. This person seemed to be clueless or maybe just uncaring but she invited me in as though she lived in a castle. Inside, she took me in to the bathroom to see kittens so I walked through the living room, down a hallway, past a bedroom and into the bathroom. In that walk, there was no place to sit, no toilet or shower. The tub was piled high with clothes, empty cat food cans and empty TV dinners and soda cans and just trash. Seeing that was years ago and I was really unprepared for what I saw today. 

So, I've been asked for help in dealing with this situation. Both are unhappy with this awful mess but I didn't see or hear any thing that indicated they wanted to make a change. I feel like there's a huge wall and no way past it. 

MY opinion is that nothing can be done or should be done until and unless they want it. And, they're going to have to want it really bad because, out of a 4 bedroom house, they are actually living in two very tiny rooms. (I have no idea where they sleep.) Moreover, I feel like I (my friends) don't have the right to go in and tell these people how to live. 

A major factor here is that the son has no way to make a living when his mother dies. As it is now, they're living on family wealth passed down to them. The house is paid for.

Has anyone ever seen this before and have any thoughts?

BTW, I've dealt with animal hoarders but never anything like this. 

Thanks for reading this long post.


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## Luddly Neddite (Aug 25, 2013)

Speaking of alternative lifestyles, now watching "sister wives", which I also have never seen before. 

How do these people afford these brand new houses and nice new cars?


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## Rozman (Aug 25, 2013)

I live in an apartment building and the apartment next to me was a husband and wife who were hoarders.They have a young daughter who would vist from time to time.All of them dressed ok and from the looks of them who would think anything was up.

Well so many people who lived above them complained about a smell coming into their apartments
the landlord sent the super in there to see what was going on.I would be out in the hallway waiting for the elevator and the smell of "mouse" was heavy in the hallway.

We had a really bad roach problem in the hallway as well with roaches all around their door.

Well when access was gained into their apartment the sight and smell was horrific.
It took six men six hours to get all the crap out.They filled up a good sized dumpster 
that was out in the street.While this was going on you could not walk out into the hall.
I took a peek inside and was shocked at the filth.

These people were living in an apartment that was floor to ceiling trash.

Someone bought the apartment and had it gutted.It has taken weeks but finally the stink is gone
as well as the husband and wife.I am shocked at what was going on next door and can't figure for the life of me how they were able to live in all that.


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## Luddly Neddite (Aug 25, 2013)

Yeesh.

You've brought back a really weird memory from my childhood. A neighbor house where, instead of laundering clothing, they would throw it outside and, I guess, just buy more. 

Another memory, of neighbors to a house we rented before we bought a house in Tucson. I went to their house one day to ask to use the phone because ours wasn't installed yet. There were kids at home watching TV and I stood at the kitchen counter to talk on the phone. There were dirty dishes, open food cans, filth, cockroaches, mice -  everywhere. It smelled awful and the roaches didn't even bother hiding. There were out in the open, leisurely wandering from one food source to another. 

They had dogs outside and that's where we got ticks that it took us so many years to get rid of. 

At least your filthy neighbors moved out.


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## Immanuel (Aug 25, 2013)

I've never seen anything like that before except on tv.

My only thought is that there is nothing you can do to help until they decide to make a change in their lifestyles.

Good luck,

Immie


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## Luddly Neddite (Aug 25, 2013)

Immanuel said:


> I've never seen anything like that before except on tv.
> 
> My only thought is that there is nothing you can do to help until they decide to make a change in their lifestyles.
> 
> ...



My thinking as well but today I was told that's a cop-out.

Thing is, if they don't want to change, they won't change. And, unless they're breakig some law or endangering others, I believe they have the right to live that way.

As for the son not having a way to earn a living ... They both know that the money will end with her death but they have done nothing to plan ahead for that eventuality. 

Isn't that their choice?


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## Luddly Neddite (Aug 25, 2013)

Jeeez. I've turned the TV back to that hoarding program and there are people actually wearing respirators inside the house. 

About 3 years ago, we left out house in town empty for the entire summer. The air conditioner was on but the people who we paid to check on the house didn't, the AC quit and we went back to a house that was covered with mold. It was terrible and we had to have it professionally cleaned. 

How could people live in that? And, why?

Yeah, I know, it really is a mental illness. 

Just really sad.


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## Immanuel (Aug 25, 2013)

Luddly Neddite said:


> Immanuel said:
> 
> 
> > I've never seen anything like that before except on tv.
> ...



It is their choice.  

And I don't agree that it is a "cop-out".  You could barge in there and clean up that house making it **** an' span if you are so inclined, but before long they will be right back in the same situation and you will have not accomplished anything.  They will probably resent you for it, too.

Immie


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## percysunshine (Aug 25, 2013)

The literature is mixed as to whether it is a learned behavior or has neurologic origins. Everyone seems to agree that a hoarder seldom sees it as a problem.

"..hoarding as an avoidance behavior tied to indecisiveness and perfectionism. Saving allows the hoarder to avoid the decision required to throw something away, and the worry which accompanies that decision (worry that a mistake has been made). Also, it allows hoarders to avoid emotional reactions which accompany parting with cherished possessions, and results in increased perception of control."

The hoarding of possessions

https://www.google.com/#fp=d376bad89d5753b2&q=psychology+of+hoarding+behavior&revid=1305656010


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## Luddly Neddite (Aug 25, 2013)

> Everyone seems to agree that a hoarder seldom sees it as a problem.



Today, trying to be diplomatic, it was very clear that she did not see a problem. Her son - argh. Who knows? He just seems like a cypher. 

Visiting them and then watching this horrible TV show just makes me want to throw stuff away!


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## Immanuel (Aug 25, 2013)

Luddly Neddite said:


> > Everyone seems to agree that a hoarder seldom sees it as a problem.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Don't do it!!!!

If you throw stuff away... tomorrow you will need it.  

Hehe, I suffer from the knowledge that as soon as I throw something away and cannot retrieve it, I will need it.  I'm not a hoarder, but I have wondered just what it would take to make me one... probably bachelorhood!

Immie


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## boedicca (Aug 25, 2013)

Luddly Neddite said:


> Speaking of alternative lifestyles, now watching "sister wives", which I also have never seen before.
> 
> How do these people afford these brand new houses and nice new cars?





WIC welfare.   They aren't legally married, so they qualify for single mother benefits.


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## whitehall (Aug 25, 2013)

Hoarding is in the eye of the beholder. If it becomes a health hazard the government steps in but otherwise   the old saying comes to mind "one man's junk is another man's treasure". It's all a matter of value and organization. You could say the Smithsonian is the biggest hoarder the world has ever seen with 200 million artifacts stashed away in jars and bins in dusty basements.


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## percysunshine (Aug 25, 2013)

I don't know if this qualifies as the same thing, but I knew a guy a few years ago that hoarded girl friends. Obviously, he couldn't keep them all together in the living room.


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## boedicca (Aug 25, 2013)

Collecting is not the same as hoarding.


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## percysunshine (Aug 25, 2013)

boedicca said:


> Collecting is not the same as hoarding.



True. But where do you draw the line? Seems like there is a lot of grey area.


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## whitehall (Aug 25, 2013)

boedicca said:


> Collecting is not the same as hoarding.



How is it different?


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## boedicca (Aug 25, 2013)

percysunshine said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> > Collecting is not the same as hoarding.
> ...




I think the line is crossed when it becomes unmanageable and one's life is dysfunctional.  Not being able to walk through one's abode unimpeded is a sign...as are the inability to hold a job, find things, let go of possessions, etc.

I read an article a couple of years ago about a woman who lives in one of those Tiny Houses.  She has a limit for the number of possessions she can own.  If she acquires an additional possession, she gets rid of one she already has.    I like the concept of setting a limit for one's space.   Hoarders don't do that.


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## Luddly Neddite (Aug 25, 2013)

boedicca said:


> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> > Speaking of alternative lifestyles, now watching "sister wives", which I also have never seen before.
> ...



Oh.

Disgusting but, welfare isn't enough to even subsist on and apparently, they had 4 new houses built for them, all together on a cul de sac. There were a slew of newish cars parked out front and what looked like a litter of little baby fundie morms in every scene.

Oh, and at one point, daddy koresh preacher told the kids they couldn't bring their smart phones to "church" which appeared to be held in the living room. I heard him say something about them being alone. No others of their kind. 

To each their own but I think they should pay their own way. And, I wonder how much these "reality" shows pay.


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## percysunshine (Aug 25, 2013)

Do those cat people that you hear about count? You know, the old lady with 300 cats in her house.


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## boedicca (Aug 25, 2013)

percysunshine said:


> Do those cat people that you hear about count? You know, the old lady with 300 cats in her house.




Oh definitely.  Having too many cats is a sign of mental illness.


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## skye (Aug 25, 2013)

I watch that program sometimes...yes.... and I am  hypnotized by the filth, it is beyond anything I have seen....

Can't take my eyes off it.


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## Immanuel (Aug 25, 2013)

boedicca said:


> percysunshine said:
> 
> 
> > Do those cat people that you hear about count? You know, the old lady with 300 cats in her house.
> ...



So is having one dog.  

Okay, I know, I'm in trouble for that one.  Do I need to go stand in the corner?  

Immie


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## boedicca (Aug 25, 2013)

skye said:


> I watch that program sometimes...yes.... and I am  hypnotized by the filth, it is beyond anything I have seen....
> 
> Can't take my eyes off it.




I watched it three times, and decided to stop.  It makes me feel to much anxiety and the people's lives are incredibly depressing.


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## skye (Aug 25, 2013)

boedicca said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
> > I watch that program sometimes...yes.... and I am  hypnotized by the filth, it is beyond anything I have seen....
> ...




me too but... it's magnetic.... I can't stop myself watching!


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## boedicca (Aug 25, 2013)

I'd rather watch Duck Dynasty or What Not To Wear (which sadly, is ending its run).


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## Luddly Neddite (Aug 25, 2013)

Immanuel said:


> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> > > Everyone seems to agree that a hoarder seldom sees it as a problem.
> ...



This is really true.

I wrote a while back about us deciding to get rid of some of our huge book collection so we wouldn't have that to worry about when we sell another one of our houses. I have listed several hundred on Amazon, Alibris, ebay, etc and its nice to get those emails telling us there has been another deposit to our bank account. And, its really nice to see stuff going out of the house. 

So far, I haven't been REEEEL sorry if a particular title or item sold but there have been times when I've thought about it --

More than anything else,  I like being in control of my stuff and not the other way around. 



> I watched it three times, and decided to stop. It makes me feel to much anxiety and the people's lives are incredibly depressing.



I don't feel anxiety but I certainly feel uncomfortable. 

It is terribly sad.


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## percysunshine (Aug 25, 2013)

Ok, honest time. Who here hoards links to USMB posts in case you might need them in an argument sometime in the future?


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## skye (Aug 25, 2013)

boedicca said:


> I'd rather watch Duck Dynasty or What Not To Wear (which sadly, is ending its run).



I know!

But watching a human garbage machine????    that is something to behold!


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## boedicca (Aug 25, 2013)

percysunshine said:


> Ok, honest time. Who here hoards links to USMB posts in case you might need them in an argument sometime in the future?





Not me.   I am perfectly copacetic that I have the wit and intelligence to come up with a new reply.


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## Connery (Aug 25, 2013)

I had a girlfriend once that when she got anxiety attacks she would hoard and collect newspapers. It was a terrible condition for her to go through and any chance at a normal, balanced relationship  with anyone was very slim. Long after the relationship was finished she informed me she had OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder). I would not want to wish that on anyone.


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## boedicca (Aug 25, 2013)

Luddly Neddite said:


> Immanuel said:
> 
> 
> > Luddly Neddite said:
> ...





We have literally 1,000s of books, which is why we can never move.  I know most of them will never be ready again, and would be happy donating them to our friends of the library group, but mr. boe is rather attached.   It's the only thing about which he's materialistic.


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## boedicca (Aug 25, 2013)

skye said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> > I'd rather watch Duck Dynasty or What Not To Wear (which sadly, is ending its run).
> ...




If you want to see a real human garbage machine, check out "I Eat 33,000 Calories A Day" (it was on the Discovery Channel a few years back).

Talk about disgusting.  Here's a clip.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0fISI7tYPE].[/ame]


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## Gracie (Aug 25, 2013)

Luddly Neddite said:


> Since getting home today, I've been watching the program, Hoarders, Buried Alive. I had never seen it before and decided to watch it because I visited a hoarder today. I had been told it was bad before I got there but I was absolutely stunned at what I saw.
> 
> A long time, widowed woman and her 30-some son live in this very nice bi-level house. They're both very heavy smokers so breathing is pretty much impossible. Just inside the front door, you can look up to the top level but there are boxes and stuff right to the edge of the steps so going up there is not possible.
> 
> ...




Eww. You really sat at their table and DRANK coffee out of one of their cups and maybe even ate the pie or brownies? And no hazmat suit? Dayum. You are brave. No way would I have entered that place.


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## boedicca (Aug 25, 2013)

Gracie said:


> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> > Since getting home today, I've been watching the program, Hoarders, Buried Alive. I had never seen it before and decided to watch it because I visited a hoarder today. I had been told it was bad before I got there but I was absolutely stunned at what I saw.
> ...




The clouds of cigarette smoke killed the germs, no doubt.


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## Missourian (Aug 25, 2013)

Link to Horders on Hulu...8 episodes stream free...horders | Search results | Watch TV online | Free | Hulu


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## whitehall (Aug 25, 2013)

It's just a problem of perceived value and organization. An art exhibit could be hoarding of useless junk on a grand scale or priceless canvas with speckles and drops of paint allegedly created by maniac alcoholic Jackson Pollack. If you saw a statue of the Virgin Mary smeared with dung in the front yard of a junk collector you might be horrified but in a NYC art gallery it's considered art. There must be a million big and little museums in the US not to mention the entire world and one man's artfully displayed iron square nail is another man's piece of junk  It's all about perception.


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## boedicca (Aug 25, 2013)

whitehall said:


> It's just a problem of perceived value and organization. An art exhibit could be hoarding of useless junk on a grand scale or priceless canvas with speckles and drops of paint allegedly created by maniac alcoholic Jackson Pollack. If you saw a statue of the Virgin Mary smeared with dung in the front yard of a junk collector you might be horrified but in a NYC art gallery it's considered art. There must be a million big and little museums in the US not to mention the entire world and one man's artfully displayed iron square nail is another man's piece of junk  It's all about perception.




Ownership and possession are not hoarding.   One may question someone's taste, but merely having something distasteful doesn't make that person a hoarder.


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## Vox (Aug 25, 2013)

percysunshine said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> > Collecting is not the same as hoarding.
> ...



cleanliness and order. no grey line here at all

that's the line.

I have not seen hoarders before I moved to the US. So far I've seen them on TV only


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## whitehall (Aug 25, 2013)

boedicca said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> > It's just a problem of perceived value and organization. An art exhibit could be hoarding of useless junk on a grand scale or priceless canvas with speckles and drops of paint allegedly created by maniac alcoholic Jackson Pollack. If you saw a statue of the Virgin Mary smeared with dung in the front yard of a junk collector you might be horrified but in a NYC art gallery it's considered art. There must be a million big and little museums in the US not to mention the entire world and one man's artfully displayed iron square nail is another man's piece of junk  It's all about perception.
> ...



Isn't ownership and possession part of the definition of hoarding? How many things does it take to label a person a hoarder? Isn't it a matter of space and organization and value? The Smithsonian has 200 million artifacts. OK the discussion was fun and maybe we should distinguish between types of hoarders even if the program doesn't. There are collectors who live among the junk they continue to accumulate and then there are crazy people who live in discarded pizza boxes and rodent filth and sometimes dead pets that they haven't seen for a while.


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## skye (Aug 25, 2013)

boedicca said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
> > boedicca said:
> ...



Yep.

All that is hypnotic ....

and magnetic...

and  one is glue to the TV .... because repulsion and attraction are  opposite ends of the same string.


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## whitehall (Aug 25, 2013)

Here's the deal in logical legal terms. A hoarder who accumulates stuff and continues to accumulate stuff is restricted by zoning ordinances that he is required to comply with and if zoning ordinances are loose enough he is on his own as long as he can pay for the stuff and pay his taxes. When a person or a family relies on government support and lives in filth and pizza boxes and roaches and animal dung he/she and/or the family needs to be placed in a shelter because they are mentally or physically unable to function within the limits of reasonable behavior supported by taxpayers. The concept is simple but the program conveniently fails to inform viewer if the hoarding is financed by taxpayers.


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## Noomi (Aug 26, 2013)

Here's a solution - drag them out of the house, clean it all up, and send them the bill. If they wreck the house a second time, they lose it for good.

Couple weeks ago I watched a TV show about a woman who filled her house with junk. 7 years ago she had a TV station pay to remove 4 large industrial sized bins worth of garbage, and then she filled the house with rubbish again, and called up the same TV station, expecting them to pay to remove the rubbish yet again.

Thank goodness they refused.

Years ago I recall watching a show about an overweight, diabetic woman who lived in filth, mold everywhere, her fridge was covered in it, and mice and cockroaches were all over the place. She couldn't get to the toilet because of all her junk so she shat wherever she could, in the kitchen, in the hall, etc.
She was interview sitting in her 'kitchen' which smelled so bad the interviewer had to wear a mask. The woman was sitting down in an oversized nightgown, demanding to know who was going to help her clean up the mess.

Again, thank goodness the TV station had enough sense to ignore her.

If you don't like the filth you live in, clean your house. That's my advice.


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## Gracie (Aug 26, 2013)

Some of those folks have mental issues and cleaning up their house for them won't make those issues go away.


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## Noomi (Aug 26, 2013)

Gracie said:


> Some of those folks have mental issues and cleaning up their house for them won't make those issues go away.



See, I believe that we overuse the term 'mental illness'. Sometimes there is nothing wrong with you, but we label people mentally ill anyway to give them an excuse for their rotten behavior.


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## Book of Jeremiah (Aug 26, 2013)

I think they have attached their own personal self worth to what they own and cannot throw anything away without feeling they are throwing a piece of themselves away.  They feel more comfortable living in filth than with everything clean and nice.  I definitely think there is something to it although I have not figured out what it is that would drive someone to live like that.  It is as if they are completely detached from their surroundings.    Personally, I could not live that way.


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## Luddly Neddite (Aug 26, 2013)

I dreamed about this last night. The piles of junk and filth, the stench of cigarette smoke and FILTH. Both of them had that grey skin smokers get and their clothes looked as dirty as everything else. Also, not sure I said this earlier but the son ate most of the brownies and she ate one piece of key lime pie after another.  

I don't think there's a fine line between collecting and hoarding. There is not one room in my home that does not have a bookcase in it and I am SO glad to be selling books on Amazon. 

Vox is right -


> cleanliness and order. no grey line here at all
> 
> that's the line.



And, what is it with people being willing (wanting?) to appear on these disgusting TV shows? Last night, I flipped channels a little bit when I just couldn't stand to look at the hoarders any more. Our brains are rotting. That's the only possible reason why those shows are popular. 

33K calories a day and that plate of cookies sitting there. She said, 'as soon as its safe, as soon as no one is there to find out', she's shoving platefuls of cooking into her face. REALLY? When the kid comes home with more cookies, does she think he doesn't know where the last plate full of cookies went? It sure as hell wasn't the cookie monster.

I come from a fat family and I can see they all have enablers. Someone who eats that much does not go to work, earn the money and then go to the cookie store. Someone else does that for them.

Ugh. I'm not having anything to do with cleaning up for this hoarder I visited yesterday. I do feel bad for them but it just isn't right for people to come in and tell someone how to live. If they break city ordinances or if neighbors complain, that would be different. But, they choose to live like this and its not my business to tell them to live differently.


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## Circe (Aug 26, 2013)

whitehall said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> > Collecting is not the same as hoarding.
> ...



Easy, and it's a basic issue in the field of hoarding.

Collecting is when you are proud of the collection and show it off.

Hoarding is when you are ashamed of the stuff.


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## boedicca (Aug 26, 2013)

whitehall said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> > whitehall said:
> ...





Ownership and possession are not indications of a mental disorder.

It's the obsessive compulsive disorder aspect that makes it a mental illness.  The OCD just manifests itself in hoarding behavior.


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## Circe (Aug 26, 2013)

boedicca said:


> percysunshine said:
> 
> 
> > Do those cat people that you hear about count? You know, the old lady with 300 cats in her house.
> ...



Reminds me of the T-shirt slogan --------

"One cat away from crazy cat lady"

[



It's an interesting issue, though. After all, the cats tend to do it themselves, that is, increase in numbers. If they are just doing it themselves, the issue becomes, do you harden your heart and get rid of some and neuter the rest or just keep the males? That's what we did, and we only keep two (spayed and now old) inside. In the case of natural increase, it's like having mice or rats or bats -- people are expected to have limits on their homes that don't involve a lot of animal dirt.

The REAL animal hoarding problem is when they actively bring them in. Animal "rescuers." My husband knew a woman in Canada who had 26 cats in a small apartment.....it was a no-pets building. 

And a young, nervous woman came to a wool-spinning group who says she's a cat rescuer and people supply her with food for them....I know the place where she lives and I am hoping she keeps them in the barn. She apparently had LOTS. She didn't want to say how many and was generally vague about her situation.....so I bet it's pretty bad. She was very controlling and directive and urgent about telling people what they had to do with cats, and quick, too --- I realized she was one of these crazies who will call the County on everyone who has animals but herself, a control freak, so I broke off contact. 

This "animal rescue" label puts a good name on what probably is a lot of animal hoarding going on.


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## Circe (Aug 26, 2013)

Noomi said:


> Gracie said:
> 
> 
> > Some of those folks have mental issues and cleaning up their house for them won't make those issues go away.
> ...




Noomi. Of course they are mentally ill. What, people defaecating wherever they can because they can't get to a bathroom anymore? What did you suppose mental illness looks like??

Worst-end hoarding is an obvious sign of psychosis if they are young and an obvious sign of senility when they are old: it's all too common in old age, so watch out, it could happen to any of us.


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## Circe (Aug 26, 2013)

Luddly Neddite said:


> I dreamed about this last night. The piles of junk and filth, the stench of cigarette smoke and FILTH. Both of them had that grey skin smokers get and their clothes looked as dirty as everything else. Also, not sure I said this earlier but the son ate most of the brownies and she ate one piece of key lime pie after another.
> 
> I don't think there's a fine line between collecting and hoarding. There is not one room in my home that does not have a bookcase in it and I am SO glad to be selling books on Amazon.



Okay, that's it. Luddly, what is going on here is that you have been traumatized by this event, and that's the norm. I know something about this issue and when a non-hoarder sees this sort of situation, they do become quite traumatized. And you do start worrying a lot about where you are on the spectrum.

Which is not a bad thing.....this country is so rich that our economy facilitates development of this mental disease, of course. I expect it always happened with senility and mental illness, however: you can accumulate a lot even in poorer circumstances if you never throw anything out! Watch for it in older fiction and you'll find it.

Personally, I think it's the madness that traumatizes us. We come into contact, unwarned, with flagrant madness, and a lot of people try to normalize it and talk about rights, so it becomes very confusing. There is of course a continuum of hoarding from everyone's junk drawer in the kitchen to the TV show situations, because humans are a storing-up species, like pack rats and ravens and several other species. So we are anxious about the idea that we maybe should get rid of our stuff and what is crazy and what isn't!

I think you should realize that you actually got yourself into a serious situation here ---- for you. (They are perfectly comfortable in it, at least till people start throwing away their stuff.)  If you are like many people, you will probably take some years to process this, so take care of yourself and expect that. It's usual. Contact with flagrant madness is not good for people ever and is hard to deal with unless you are very used to it like some of the TV show social workers and junk removers.


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## editec (Aug 26, 2013)

Luddly Neddite said:


> Since getting home today, I've been watching the program, Hoarders, Buried Alive. I had never seen it before and decided to watch it because I visited a hoarder today. I had been told it was bad before I got there but I was absolutely stunned at what I saw.
> 
> A long time, widowed woman and her 30-some son live in this very nice bi-level house. They're both very heavy smokers so breathing is pretty much impossible. Just inside the front door, you can look up to the top level but there are boxes and stuff right to the edge of the steps so going up there is not possible.
> 
> ...



This behavior is quite common here in Maine.


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## Luddly Neddite (Aug 26, 2013)

Circe said:


> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> > I dreamed about this last night. The piles of junk and filth, the stench of cigarette smoke and FILTH. Both of them had that grey skin smokers get and their clothes looked as dirty as everything else. Also, not sure I said this earlier but the son ate most of the brownies and she ate one piece of key lime pie after another.
> ...



I think you are absolutely correct that my reaction is to finding myself in the presence of very obvious madness. It is simply not normal to fill one's cave up with so much stuff that you less than two rooms to actually live in. 

I marveled that the house looked so normal from the outside. And, that the woman carried on a nice normal conversation, as though we were not sitting in the annex to the city dump. Actually, we were mostly standing for lack of room to sit. 



> This behavior is quite common here in Maine.



I suspect its a lot more common everywhere than most of us know. 

When we drive from our lake house to town, we see places where cars are sitting up on blocks, old trashy trailers rotting out, junk piled on porches.

The more I think about this, the sicker and the sadder it feels to me.


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## Circe (Aug 26, 2013)

Luddly Neddite said:


> I suspect its a lot more common everywhere than most of us know.
> 
> When we drive from our lake house to town, we see places where cars are sitting up on blocks, old trashy trailers rotting out, junk piled on porches.
> 
> The more I think about this, the sicker and the sadder it feels to me.




Yeah, once you've been shocked by seeing it up close you start to become more observant and see it in more places than before. We communally ignore a lot of it on public view as basically not our problem. 

We are frequently overwhelmed by our possessions and our instincts. Thoreau was probably right: "Simplify! Simplify!"


Though it has always worried me that he said it twice.......

[


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## April (Aug 26, 2013)

Hey...you all say 'crazy cat lady' as if it's a bad thing...


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## FA_Q2 (Aug 26, 2013)

Gracie said:


> Some of those folks have mental issues and cleaning up their house for them won't make those issues go away.


No, it wont.  As a matter of fact (or belief I guess as this is MHO) the ONLY thing that is going to help people like this is when THEY actually throw everything away.  One has to make the conscious decision and take the self-action of overcoming something like this or they will never get out of it.

It is the same with virtually all mental problems from mental addictions to things like this.  You can force them to comply but the problem will never go away like that.


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## skye (Aug 26, 2013)

Circe said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> > boedicca said:
> ...



Exactly! the difference is like Heaven and hell.




Collecting






Hoarding


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## Connery (Aug 26, 2013)

Circe said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> > boedicca said:
> ...



I do not think that being "ashamed" is a requisite element to being a hoarder. To me there is a mental illness or emotional problem going on.


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## Asclepias (Aug 26, 2013)

Its pretty obvious its a underlying mental issue.  Ive seen the Hoarder show a number of times and everyone of those people have some serious mental issues. For some it shows just how far people go when they isolate themselves.  We were meant to live in groups.  For others it shows how dangerous it is to only hang around like minded individuals and enablers.


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## Luddly Neddite (Aug 26, 2013)

Asclepias said:


> Its pretty obvious its a underlying mental issue.  Ive seen the Hoarder show a number of times and everyone of those people have some serious mental issues. For some it shows just how far people go when they isolate themselves.  We were meant to live in groups.  For others it shows how dangerous it is to only hang around like minded individuals and enablers.



Isolation. 

And, the internet is making it easier and easier to withdraw from society.


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## percysunshine (Aug 26, 2013)

There isn't much of a debate going on here. Someone needs to step forward and take the pro-hoarding side.

Ok, I'll give it a try.

Pro-hoarding position;

1) It doesn't really hurt anyone.  What is the big deal? As long as it is the hoarders money they are spending, and no one is being forced to live with them, it is a free country.

2) The benefits to the hoarder are peace of mind. Would you try to force them to stop? Causing all sorts of pathologic behavior? No.

3) Maybe they have something you just might need. Then you would be glad someone had the fore sight to save it. For all anyone knows, there is a cure for cancer buried in there somewhere.

4) Hoarders provide a useful reference point for normal behavior. If there were no hoarders, how would you know what normal was? Society might select some other behavior as an example of abnormal and excoriate or decry it. Like writing messages to complete strangers on the internet or something. In a way, hoarders protect USMB members from being declared reprobates by society.


There...counter debate anyone?


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## Luddly Neddite (Aug 26, 2013)

1. Oh yeah? Go visit a hoarder and come back and tell us if you want to stay for dinner.

2. Chicken or egg ... Were they crazy before they hoarded or hoarding made them crazy later?

3. And, how would they know?

4. Too late. This joint is crawling with reprobates and rascals. I myself take great pride in being fairly nuts. 'sides, for all we know, its the hoarders who are sane. Didja think of that?

Can't dee-bate anymore right now cuz one of my 37 cats is sharpening his claws on my foot and I hafta staunch the flow of my life fluid or sumthin like that.


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## percysunshine (Aug 26, 2013)

Luddly Neddite said:


> 1. Oh yeah? Go visit a hoarder and come back and tell us if you want to stay for dinner.
> 
> 2. Chicken or egg ... Were they crazy before they hoarded or hoarding made them crazy later?
> 
> ...




Wow...I won the debate in one exchange. That must be a forum record...chuckle


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## Luddly Neddite (Aug 26, 2013)

I let you win.


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## Noomi (Aug 26, 2013)

percysunshine said:


> There isn't much of a debate going on here. Someone needs to step forward and take the pro-hoarding side.
> 
> Ok, I'll give it a try.
> 
> ...



That is where you are wrong. If the mess spreads to outside, it devalues the properties around it. Its a firehazard, not only to that house, but the homes around it, and lets not mention the smell.


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## arKangel (Aug 26, 2013)

Luddly Neddite said:


> Since getting home today, I've been watching the program, Hoarders, Buried Alive. I had never seen it before and decided to watch it because I visited a hoarder today. I had been told it was bad before I got there but I was absolutely stunned at what I saw.
> 
> A long time, widowed woman and her 30-some son live in this very nice bi-level house. They're both very heavy smokers so breathing is pretty much impossible. Just inside the front door, you can look up to the top level but there are boxes and stuff right to the edge of the steps so going up there is not possible.
> 
> ...



1st, you prefaced this whole anecdote with a TV show(?), which means you are admitting that you are clearly biased.
You appear to be very simply justifying your own anti-privacy bias.

Your anecdote has a lot of holes in it...
Why were you there in the first place?
Was you assessment in any way tainted by your clear prejudice? 
Do you feel better now that you have denigrated some people on a who apparently welcomed you into their home on an obscure message board?


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## arKangel (Aug 26, 2013)

Noomi said:


> percysunshine said:
> 
> 
> > There isn't much of a debate going on here. Someone needs to step forward and take the pro-hoarding side.
> ...



Nothing about the anecdote indicated that it was spreading to others property.  
You hate the concept of private property so much that you did not actually read the OP?


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## Noomi (Aug 26, 2013)

Doesn't matter. The mess is inside the house, and still a fire hazard.


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## arKangel (Aug 26, 2013)

Noomi said:


> Doesn't matter. The mess is inside the house, and still a fire hazard.



It does matter, your point is now admittedly moot.


You have now admitted that you hate the concept of private property.
Why do you hate privacy?  Are you some kind of psychotic voyeur?


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## Circe (Aug 27, 2013)

Noomi said:


> If the mess spreads to outside, it devalues the properties around it. Its a firehazard, not only to that house, but the homes around it, and lets not mention the smell.




Strong cultural opinions about privacy and property rights are presumably why communities do nothing about even the worst hoarding situations. It is an interesting issue about whether and when the community should get involved --- after all, the hoarders LIKE to live the way they do and strongly resist cleanups or recreate the mess afterward. it IS their stuff; it is their home.

Anytime you get regular defaecation in non-toilet areas of the house, that's a sign of psychosis and/or severe senility and that means it's time for the nursing home for the unfortunate there, who probably has severe personality disintegration by then and plainly can no longer cope with independent living. At some point it's not hoarding: it's somebody badly needing help because their minds are gone. Even when the community and family lets them hoard much of their lives, when the person gets to be in their 80s or 90s, they do tend to get moved into the rest home, like it or not.

People setting fires because they try to cook with papers and boxes all over the stove; people who have have frequent health emergencies but emergency services can't get in -- these tend to bring official demands for clean-ups or else. The house so degraded that roofs are falling in or beams cracking lead to threats of the county condemning the house and demolishing it. This is common, because the house structure has to carry the weight of too much junk, and is never repaired. 

Another common reason for the county to get involved is animal hoarding. Neighbors WILL call officials if animals are straying all over or seem malnourished. That nice-looking guy who supervises the 1-800-GOT-JUNK crews on Hoarders says he has long categorized his client houses by how many dead cats they find in the house. Like, a three-cat house.

Another reason for the law to get involved is children. A lot of hoarders on the shows are there to get clean-ups because the county is threatening to take away their children because it's a manifestly unsafe and unsanitary environment.


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## FA_Q2 (Aug 27, 2013)

arKangel said:


> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> > Since getting home today, I've been watching the program, Hoarders, Buried Alive. I had never seen it before and decided to watch it because I visited a hoarder today. I had been told it was bad before I got there but I was absolutely stunned at what I saw.
> ...



There is one massive hole in that reasoning though.  He never intones that it is not the right of those to do what they were doing.

The idea is with intervention.  The OP comes off as though this is a mutual acquaintance through a friend and not a loved no so it does not apply in this specific case to him (at least AFAIK) so that is why I did not post it earlier but there are times when intervention is not only called for but the only moral choice that you can make.  There is nothing wrong with stepping up to a loved one and attempting to pull them back from self-destructive lifestyle.  A good parallel is drug use.  There are times when an individual is simply lost and cannot claw themselves out from the inside of their own situation.  In those cases, the person in question might not even ask, intone or even realize that they need help but they need it all the same.  Sometimes what it takes for them to reach that admission is for a loved one that they care dearly about to smack them in the face and force them to see the situation.  After that, it is the persons choice to take the help or reject it.  In the end it is always their choice but in the beginning it is the loved ones RESPONSIBILITY to help insofar as they can.


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## midcan5 (Aug 27, 2013)

Luddly Neddite said:


> Speaking of alternative lifestyles, now watching "sister wives", which I also have never seen before.
> 
> How do these people afford these brand new houses and nice new cars?



American TV is amazing today, next watch 'Breaking Amish,' 'Honey boo boo,' and finish with the polygamy show in which the women select a husband married or not married. Then there are the Housewives shows and don't forget the 'Kardashians.' As the world turns, no need to watch soaps, they have come alive in a bizarre fashion. A past brother in law was a hoarder, he was always strange, but till he died no one realized all the stuff he had accumulated. We had a few hoarders in Philly recently and you should see the dumpster loads. Unreal. The funny thing about humans is, we are all alike in so many ways, yet some take those ways to the farthest extremes. We all save the useless for all sorts of reasons.


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## Circe (Aug 27, 2013)

FA_Q2 said:


> The idea is with intervention.  The OP comes off as though this is a mutual acquaintance through a friend and not a loved no so it does not apply in this specific case to him (at least AFAIK) so that is why I did not post it earlier but there are times when intervention is not only called for but the only moral choice that you can make.  There is nothing wrong with stepping up to a loved one and attempting to pull them back from self-destructive lifestyle.  A good parallel is drug use.  There are times when an individual is simply lost and cannot claw themselves out from the inside of their own situation.  In those cases, the person in question might not even ask, intone or even realize that they need help but they need it all the same.  Sometimes what it takes for them to reach that admission is for a loved one that they care dearly about to smack them in the face and force them to see the situation.  After that, it is the person&#8217;s choice to take the help or reject it.  In the end it is always their choice but in the beginning it is the loved ones RESPONSIBILITY to help insofar as they can.




There IS a case to be made for freedom, however, and that is why people leave it alone for so long -------- well, the hoarder usually hides what s/he is doing, of course, because they don't want to clean up and throw out. I think in many cases, the best thing to do is wait till the person dies, then clean up. Hire it done or let the county do it. The situation Luddly saw is more complex because there is a younger son who also hoards.

I don't think the "eyesore" reason is a good one for the law requiring cleanup. Sure, the hoarder depreciates property values all around. But s/he's been there a LONG time, maybe that's fair. Luddly is looking around now and seeing a lot of messy yards and realizing that if they are like that outside, what are they like inside? Worse, probably. There's a lot more hoarding that people used to realize. But we're learning now.

The vermin problem is one I don't know the answer to. Hoarders have appalling vermin issues and neighbors usually complain about that, but is that reasonable if it's a free-standing house? I'm not sure it is. If they want to live with mice and ants and roaches and bedbugs in a free-standing house and there are no children there -------- shouldn't they be free to do so? Opinion?


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## Noomi (Aug 27, 2013)

^if there are houses next to them, they need to clean it up. People shouldn't have a house devalued because of the filth next door. If its a house in the middle of nowhere, do what you like, but not in a regular neighborhood.


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## Circe (Aug 27, 2013)

Noomi said:


> ^if there are houses next to them, they need to clean it up. People shouldn't have a house devalued because of the filth next door. If its a house in the middle of nowhere, do what you like, but not in a regular neighborhood.



I just realized from your post that hoarding and storing the overflow outside as some (not all) hoarders do is one reason subdivisions often have restrictive covenants about what you can and can't have on your visible property: they are trying to protect property values.

I live in the country so I didn't think about close-set neighborhoods. In the country you can see a lot of homes with a lot of squalor piled around.


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## Noomi (Aug 27, 2013)

Just down the road from us is a home that was up for sale. It was for sale for 12 months before the owners gave up because they had no choice but to stay there.
They live on a corner, and there are two houses either side of theirs.
House one is falling down, and should be demolished. The grass is overgrown, the front veranda is a shambles. The 'garage' is ready to save in, and the entire house needs a good paint. In summer, the grass grows to knee heightm but they still head outside to peg the washing on the line. They have spent thousands on solar panels, but nothing on cleaning up the outside of the house.

House number two has a couple of feral Aborigines in it. Bedsheets for curtains, overgrown grass, rusty cars in the front yard, broken windows etc.

The house with the For Sale sign out the front never did sell, and it won't - unless the owners want to accept a price well under that of the true value of the house, all because of the properties next door.

Now, the owners of the two homes are not hoarders, but it gives you an idea of how people can be affected by one person's choices.


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## Luddly Neddite (Aug 27, 2013)

FA_Q2 said:


> arKangel said:
> 
> 
> > Luddly Neddite said:
> ...



These people didn't come across as lost although, apparently neither goes out except when they have to.  Noomi makes a very good point about safety. Like the anecdote about the roaches and ticks in the house next to us in Tucson, these people surely don't live in a vacuum. 

This has been very much on my mind but, like I've said before, I still can't quite see that its my place to be part of some sort of intervention. Maybe I'm just a coward but, just as I wrote in earlier posts, I think I just have to back away and mind my own business.


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## Luddly Neddite (Aug 27, 2013)

midcan5 said:


> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> > Speaking of alternative lifestyles, now watching "sister wives", which I also have never seen before.
> ...



Actually, we did watch a bit of Honey boo boo last night. Ugh. Best to turn off that crap for fear of one's brain rotting and falling out through one's ears. 

Something else about hoarding - I've said we're selling books on Amazon and Alibris and other sited, and some other stuff on ebay. And, I think I mentioned that the son of the woman we visited will not have an income when she dies. 

From what I saw, he pretty much just sits in front of the TV but I would think he could do well if he worked to sell stuff on line. 

To each there own, but I couldn't live like that - the hoarding OR Honey boo boo.


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## Luddly Neddite (Aug 27, 2013)

arKangel said:


> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> > Since getting home today, I've been watching the program, Hoarders, Buried Alive. I had never seen it before and decided to watch it because I visited a hoarder today. I had been told it was bad before I got there but I was absolutely stunned at what I saw.
> ...



Perhaps you would like to actually read what was written before judging. 

Or, perhaps not. 

Either is fine with me.


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## FA_Q2 (Aug 27, 2013)

Luddly Neddite said:


> midcan5 said:
> 
> 
> > Luddly Neddite said:
> ...



TV is terrible.  I cancelled ours about a decade ago and never looked back once.  Most programing is complete garbage (particularly reality shows) and you get rewarded for watching that crap with a bunch of other guys lies about why you should buy their crap.

If I like a show or movie, ill get the show itself thank you very much.  No commercials, programming schedules, monthly bills or garbage that I dont want to watch in the first place.

I have seen a single episode of hoarders and that WAS interesting for a single episode.  I am not sure why I would ever bother watching more than one  it is just the same theme done over again.  The only reason that it was interesting the first time is that I had never seen anything done to that extreme.  I have to admit,. There is a little hoarder in me as I have a garage that I can no longer walk though  but it is CLEAN (no trash) and the house is free of that insane clutter.


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## Circe (Aug 27, 2013)

FA_Q2 said:


> There is a little hoarder in me as I have a garage that I can no longer walk though  but it is CLEAN (no trash) and the house is free of that insane clutter.




Everybody has one such area. Ours is the attic. 

I think the criterion is suppose to be whether the house is functional: that is, whether you can walk into and use rooms, sleep on beds, cook on the stove, eat out of the refrigerator without being poisoned, climb stairs normally, sit at a table or on a couch. 

Hoarders can't do any of those activities.


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## Mertex (Aug 27, 2013)

whitehall said:


> It's just a problem of perceived value and organization. An art exhibit could be hoarding of useless junk on a grand scale or priceless canvas with speckles and drops of paint allegedly created by maniac alcoholic Jackson Pollack.* If you saw a statue of the Virgin Mary smeared with dung in the front yard of a junk collector you might be horrified but in a NYC art gallery it's considered art. *There must be a million big and little museums in the US not to mention the entire world and one man's artfully displayed iron square nail is another man's piece of junk  It's all about perception.




You might be stretching it a bit.  Hoarders don't display their stuff neatly, they just pile it up, I'm sure if the NY City art gallery doesn't even come close to that.


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## Mertex (Aug 27, 2013)

AngelsNDemons said:


> Hey...you all say 'crazy cat lady' as if it's a bad thing...



Yeah, it would only be crazy if you didn't clean up after them and feed them!


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## FA_Q2 (Aug 27, 2013)

Luddly Neddite said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> > arKangel said:
> ...



Its only cowardly if these people mean enough to you to justify the stress and hardship that you would need to go through to help them because, lets face it, such an action is NOT easy on your part.  You have not clarified how close you are to them.  If you are not that close than it is not cowardly at all, they have no rights to your attention and hard work anymore than you have a right to force them to live as you want.  Only a personal connection with them and them with you gives either of you the responsibility to step in.

Of course, even if you deem that they are that important to you and you are going to take up that charge  it might be for naught.


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## FA_Q2 (Aug 27, 2013)

Noomi said:


> Just down the road from us is a home that was up for sale. It was for sale for 12 months before the owners gave up because they had no choice but to stay there.
> They live on a corner, and there are two houses either side of theirs.
> House one is falling down, and should be demolished. The grass is overgrown, the front veranda is a shambles. The 'garage' is ready to save in, and the entire house needs a good paint. In summer, the grass grows to knee heightm but they still head outside to peg the washing on the line. They have spent thousands on solar panels, but nothing on cleaning up the outside of the house.
> 
> ...


Disclaimer: this applies to the US only.  I have no idea what the law is in your nation:

When you purchase a home you have a decision to make.  Do you want the freedom to park a trailer on blocks in your yard or do you want an organized location with a homeowners association and bylaws that control that kind of environment.  Simply put, if that person who could not sell their home lived in the US, they would only have themselves to blame.  They did not go through the trouble to ensure that such a set of rules was in place before they purchased the home.  That is real freedom because you have the option to set up communities as you see fit or you have the option not to.  You just have to accept the consequences when you do.


Circe said:


> FA_Q2 said:
> 
> 
> > The idea is with intervention.  The OP comes off as though this is a mutual acquaintance through a friend and not a loved no so it does not apply in this specific case to him (at least AFAIK) so that is why I did not post it earlier but there are times when intervention is not only called for but the only moral choice that you can make.  There is nothing wrong with stepping up to a loved one and attempting to pull them back from self-destructive lifestyle.  A good parallel is drug use.  There are times when an individual is simply lost and cannot claw themselves out from the inside of their own situation.  In those cases, the person in question might not even ask, intone or even realize that they need help but they need it all the same.  Sometimes what it takes for them to reach that admission is for a loved one that they care dearly about to smack them in the face and force them to see the situation.  After that, it is the persons choice to take the help or reject it.  In the end it is always their choice but in the beginning it is the loved ones RESPONSIBILITY to help insofar as they can.
> ...


My opinion is addressed above.  You do NOT have a right to interfere with others though and if you are creating a health risk with vermin or other unreasonable risk the you are going to have to clean it up or be evicted.  The eyesore though is a matter of whether or not you have entered into a mutual contract to cover that (aka: homeowners associations and the like).  That would apply to almost anything as long as it was not a direct threat to you or affecting your property rights.

I would not think that a messy yard is an indication of a hoarder though.  I lived next to someone that I think is going to become a hoarder as there insanity worsens.  It usually works like that.  They used to keep their trash that belonged outside in the kitchen (I assume so they did not have to take it out so often) and the smell was absolutely terrible in the house.  They used to try and cook for us and we would refuse to eat anything made at that house, just the thought of the dishes disgusted me.  They could still walk around and use the bathrooms/couches and other things but you coud tell it was just like the hoarders in an infancy stage.

The doctors told the woman that she should not clean up after the cats and dogs (2 each I think) because feces was unhealthy for pregnant women.  While true, she was not smart enough to realize that leaving it in the middle of the living room floor for a day or 2 was far WORSE.  Absolutely disgusting.


----------



## Luddly Neddite (Aug 27, 2013)

FA_Q2 said:


> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> > FA_Q2 said:
> ...



I've thought about how I would feel if someone came into my home and informed me that they were there to set me straight, to "fix" my way of living. 

Watching that horrendous tv show about hoarding, those people were in terrible distress. They were ashamed and overwhelmed and, IMO, mentally ill to some extent. To a person, they had asked for help. The people I visited were not looking to fix their way of life and its not up to me or anyone else to tell them differently.

Needless to say, if I lived next door, I might feel differently. 



> The doctors told the woman that she should not clean up after the cats and dogs (2 each I think) because feces was unhealthy for pregnant women.



Just an FYI -- the parasite, toxoplasmosis is more commonly passed to pregnant women via handling raw meat they're preparing to eat. That doesn't mean the litter box is safe. It just means that meat should be prepared on separate cutting board and, of course, wash everything well -  including your hands.


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## arKangel (Aug 27, 2013)

Luddly Neddite said:


> arKangel said:
> 
> 
> > Luddly Neddite said:
> ...



Umm, it seems you are the one who is doing the "judging", I mean these people welcomed you into their home... and this is how you repay the hospitality?

Either way, let me reiterate the questions so are so eager to avoid...

Why were you there in the first place?
Has your advertising of some typical hateful TV show influenced your portrayal of people in this anecdote?
Do you feel better now that you have denigrated people who obviously welcomed you into their home?


----------



## MikeK (Aug 28, 2013)

percysunshine said:


> The literature is mixed as to whether it is a learned behavior or has neurologic origins. Everyone seems to agree that a hoarder seldom sees it as a problem.
> 
> "..hoarding as an avoidance behavior tied to indecisiveness and perfectionism. Saving allows the hoarder to avoid the decision required to throw something away, and the worry which accompanies that decision (worry that a mistake has been made). Also, it allows hoarders to avoid emotional reactions which accompany parting with cherished possessions, and results in increased perception of control."



Some behaviorists believe an aspect of the hoarding orientation, which is a recognized psychological disorder, motivates the compulsive accumulation and retention (hoarding) of excessive wealth.  

Having accumulated a level of wealth capable of assuring a lifetime of luxurious comfort and continued prosperity, the rational mind would be inclined to turn away from the demanding efforts of accumulation (input) and toward benevolent and philanthropic pursuits (output).  But the hoarding compulsion in this example manifests as obsessive preoccupation with input and retention.


----------



## FA_Q2 (Aug 28, 2013)

Luddly Neddite said:


> I've thought about how I would feel if someone came into my home and informed me that they were there to set me straight, to "fix" my way of living.
> 
> Watching that horrendous tv show about hoarding, those people were in terrible distress. They were ashamed and overwhelmed and, IMO, mentally ill to some extent. To a person, they had asked for help. The people I visited were not looking to fix their way of life and its not up to me or anyone else to tell them differently.
> 
> Needless to say, if I lived next door, I might feel differently.


My father never asked for help either for his cocaine addiction.  He didnt think he had one and, consequently, he did not think he needed any help.  When faced with the prospect of loosing his grandchildren though (and watching one of them possibly pass away without being able to see him) he realized that there really was something wrong and he needed to address it.  Sometimes, you intervene whether or not the person realizes it is needed.

I must note that this is different though in the fact that the loss is far less.  A hoarder does not necessarily lose contact with friends or family but rather simply loses the ability to have them visit within their own home or deal with anything there.


----------



## Luddly Neddite (Aug 28, 2013)

> Some behaviorists believe an aspect of the hoarding orientation, which is a recognized psychological disorder, motivates the compulsive accumulation and retention (hoarding) of excessive wealth.
> 
> Having accumulated a level of wealth capable of assuring a lifetime of luxurious comfort and continued prosperity, the rational mind would be inclined to turn away from the demanding efforts of accumulation (input) and toward benevolent and philanthropic pursuits (output). But the hoarding compulsion in this example manifests as obsessive preoccupation with input and retention.





> I must note that this is different though in the fact that the loss is far less. A hoarder does not necessarily lose contact with friends or family but rather simply loses the ability to have them visit within their own home or deal with anything there.



Interesting that most of us believe our family is our biggest wealth and yet, from what I've seen so far, and I'm still learning!, the "things" these poor people have are worth less than nothing and the hoarding does indeed drive away family and friends. 

I mean, pooping on the floor of your home? That's sends an unmistakable message.

But, so does not having a place to sit and the stench of roaches, mice and so on. 

This is just heartbreaking.


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## Mertex (Aug 28, 2013)

arKangel said:


> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> > arKangel said:
> ...



Chill out already.  Sounds like you may have taken this too personally?  Everyone is just giving their opinion.  I don't understand hoarders, and I don't understand how anyone can live like that, there's definitely something wrong with someone who hoards to that extreme, that's all.


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## Againsheila (Aug 28, 2013)

Luddly Neddite said:


> Since getting home today, I've been watching the program, Hoarders, Buried Alive. I had never seen it before and decided to watch it because I visited a hoarder today. I had been told it was bad before I got there but I was absolutely stunned at what I saw.
> 
> A long time, widowed woman and her 30-some son live in this very nice bi-level house. They're both very heavy smokers so breathing is pretty much impossible. Just inside the front door, you can look up to the top level but there are boxes and stuff right to the edge of the steps so going up there is not possible.
> 
> ...



I've watched a few episodes of the Hoarders and only one of those people, I think will really change.  It was the mother who was having them clean out her house because she wanted to see her kids and grandkids again.  At one point, they asked her about something and she started to think about it but before she answered, her daughter gave her a look and she said, take it, I want to see my grandkids again.  

It's an illness.  Even if you clean it up, it will end up back the same way unless they get some kind of continuing help.

I will say, watching the show had gotten my husband to start moving and getting rid of some things he's been "collecting" over the years.


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## Againsheila (Aug 28, 2013)

boedicca said:


> I'd rather watch Duck Dynasty or What Not To Wear (which sadly, is ending its run).



Duky Dynasty is funny.  The episode with the bees had me laughing so hard I practically peed my pants.

Using a shop vac to vacuum up the bees so you can steal their honey???? How could they not know how badly that was going to end.  Uncle Sy "Everyman for himself!" as he drives away in the jeep, leaving Willie trying to outrace the bees.


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## Againsheila (Aug 28, 2013)

skye said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> > I'd rather watch Duck Dynasty or What Not To Wear (which sadly, is ending its run).
> ...



I'm glad I cancelled cable.


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## Againsheila (Aug 28, 2013)

boedicca said:


> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> > Immanuel said:
> ...



There is book out there called "The Inca Princess".  My grandfather had it in his library but my mom wouldn't let me borrow it and he died that night.  I was in 5th grade and wanted to read the book because we were studying the aztecs and incas in school.  Somehow that book disappeared.  The only thing I asked for from my grandfather.  If any of you book hoarders have it, I'll gladly pay you for it, if I can afford it.


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## Luddly Neddite (Aug 28, 2013)

Againsheila said:


> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> > Since getting home today, I've been watching the program, Hoarders, Buried Alive. I had never seen it before and decided to watch it because I visited a hoarder today. I had been told it was bad before I got there but I was absolutely stunned at what I saw.
> ...



Oh how well I understand that.

I've never liked clutter. It keeps me from actually getting things done, or so it seems to me. 

I've had enough of watching the so-called "reality" shows to last me for a long time.


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## Againsheila (Aug 28, 2013)

boedicca said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
> > boedicca said:
> ...



You know, I'm overweight, not that overweight, but I am overweight and I'm finding it impossible to lose.  I was really depressed until I talked a woman who told me that my blood pressure medicine causes weight gain.  Great, all this time I've been working to lose weight and I actually did lose 13 pounds, but I can't seem to lose anymore.  If I don't take my blood pressure pills I lose my kidney.  If I don't lose weight, I need the blood pressure pills.  It's a vicious circle.    I can't imagine how fat I'd be if I ate 33,000 calories a day.  I eat less than most thin people as a rule.  At this point I'm dieting to maintain my weight so I don't get even fatter. There are times when I binge but as I don't keep a lot of the stuff I binge on in the house, those times are getting rarer and rarer.  If I want to binge, I actually have to plan it. 

If I go out to eat with my friend, we usually split a meal and there's still left overs.  One day, the waitress looked at me funny when I ordered a big breakfast (my husband didn't want to split anything) and I asked for a box and took 2/3  of it home.  I ate the rest of it throughout the day.  Then I read things like this and I think "people think I'm disgusting because I'm fat", but there's not a whole lot I can do about it.  I was walking 30 minutes a day, everyday but my bone spurs got the best of me.  Now I'm looking for a pool where I can go exercise but I really need to do it several times a week and it's more than $6.00 to use the pool at the community center and that's when you belong.  Another what, $500 to join?  This was paid for with our tax dollars, it should be free, or low cost to our residents.  Worse, they raised the utilities taxes to pay for it so it didn't have to go before the voters and we can't deduct it from our income tax.  

I don't sit at home and watch TV all the time.  I'm still going to the church every Monday to give out lunches.  I'm co-housemanger and coordinator of volunteers for our local live theater, and now, I'm the secretary of our non-academic sorority that raises funds for cancer research.  It's so nice to know that while I'm running around in actual physical pain doing the job that needs to be done anyway, making sure everything goes right at the theater, that there are some people there thinking I'm disgusting.  It does so much for my morale.

I'll bet you can guess what I find disgusting...


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## Againsheila (Aug 28, 2013)

Noomi said:


> Gracie said:
> 
> 
> > Some of those folks have mental issues and cleaning up their house for them won't make those issues go away.
> ...



I'm pretty sure those people on Hoarders are mentally ill.  

You sound like my brother who was all over me to get after my son and get him working.  My oldest son has high functioning autism.  He can't find a job.  He graduated from De Vry with a 4.0 and can't find a job.  Unfortunately for my brother, the last time he went off on me about it was in front of his girlfriend who is a physical therapist and knows a little something about the disorder.  She looked at him and explained it in words he finally understood.  My brother hasn't said a word since, which takes a heck of a lot of unneeded pressure off of me.  I love his girlfriend.


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## Againsheila (Aug 28, 2013)

AngelsNDemons said:


> Hey...you all say 'crazy cat lady' as if it's a bad thing...



I plan to be a crazy cat lady someday.  Maybe that's why my husband won't let me get a cat?


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## FA_Q2 (Aug 29, 2013)

Againsheila said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> > Luddly Neddite said:
> ...



Could this be it?
THE Inca Princess A Historical Romance 1886 1167185234 | eBay

Embrace the EBay  there is nothing that is not for sale there 
 (though I should have bought it and then resold it to you  )


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## FA_Q2 (Aug 29, 2013)

Luddly Neddite said:


> > Some behaviorists believe an aspect of the hoarding orientation, which is a recognized psychological disorder, motivates the compulsive accumulation and retention (hoarding) of excessive wealth.
> >
> > Having accumulated a level of wealth capable of assuring a lifetime of luxurious comfort and continued prosperity, the rational mind would be inclined to turn away from the demanding efforts of accumulation (input) and toward benevolent and philanthropic pursuits (output). But the hoarding compulsion in this example manifests as obsessive preoccupation with input and retention.
> 
> ...



Very true.  Sometimes our priorities are out of sync.  That and the fact is that you never realize how import and a person or family member is until you drive them away and discover the hole that is left behind.  

But hey, we are only human and you cant expect to get everything right the first time


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## Skull Pilot (Aug 29, 2013)

I grew up with a manic depressive shopaholic hoarder of a mother.

It was not fun.

I moved out when I was 17 and haven't had any contact with her in over a decade.

She's fucking nuts.


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## Luddly Neddite (Aug 29, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> I grew up with a manic depressive shopaholic hoarder of a mother.
> 
> It was not fun.
> 
> ...



If you wanted to sit down in my mother's living room, you had to first move a stack of newspapers, magazines and old mail. But, that's not why I had no contact with her for the last 30 years of her life or why I didn't go to her funeral. 

Way too many people spend their life trying to heal the wounds inflicted by those they should have been able to trust to care for and protect them.

I feel for you and with you.


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## Circe (Aug 29, 2013)

Luddly Neddite said:


> Way too many people spend their life trying to heal the wounds inflicted by those they should have been able to trust to care for and protect them.



This is so true.


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## Againsheila (Aug 29, 2013)

FA_Q2 said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> > boedicca said:
> ...



I don't know, the one I was going to read didn't say "A Historical Romance" and shouldn't that be "An Historical Romance?"  I may buy it just to find out.


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