# Britain doesn't have the 2nd Amendment...so criminals have guns, just murdered 9 year old, in gun free Britain...



## 2aguy (Aug 24, 2022)

This isn't supposed to happen......Britain banned and confiscated guns from their law abiding citizens...but criminals need guns to protect themselves and their illegal businesses....so gun control laws will not stop them.....and it hasn't...

*Olivia Pratt-Korbel was shot dead** when she was standing behind her mum as a gunman opened fire through a gap in the doorway at the front of her home on Monday night. Merseyside Police confirmed at a press conference that a gunman wearing a balaclava approached two men on Kingsheath Avenue, at the Finch Road end of the road, and opened fire at them just before 10pm. 

Olivia's mum Cheryl opened the front door to see what was happening before one man forced his way into her home, followed by the gunman. A number of shots were fired before one bullet hit Cheryl in the wrist and Olivia in the chest.*









						Schoolgirl named, Men left girl to die and Nan stabbed
					

The latest ECHO headlines at lunchtime on Tuesday, August 23




					www.liverpoolecho.co.uk
				




Some more gun free activity in Britain...









						Tip offs 'flowing in' after 'little man Sam' shot dead in street
					

Sam was stood with a group of people when he was hit by gunfire




					www.liverpoolecho.co.uk
				












						Family 'torn apart' by murder of 'our shining light' Ashley Dale
					

Ashley Dale, 28, was caught in a hail of bullets after a killer forced their way into her home




					www.liverpoolecho.co.uk


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## marvin martian (Aug 24, 2022)

2aguy said:


> This isn't supposed to happen......Britain banned and confiscated guns from their law abiding citizens...but criminals need guns to protect themselves and their illegal businesses....so gun control laws will not stop them.....and it hasn't...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is the way they want it. Defenseless people are easier to control.


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## Gabe Lackmann (Aug 24, 2022)

They also don't have the First Amendment...so they can't talk about it either.


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## JGalt (Aug 24, 2022)

2aguy said:


> This isn't supposed to happen......Britain banned and confiscated guns from their law abiding citizens...but criminals need guns to protect themselves and their illegal businesses....so gun control laws will not stop them.....and it hasn't...
> 
> *Olivia Pratt-Korbel was shot dead** when she was standing behind her mum as a gunman opened fire through a gap in the doorway at the front of her home on Monday night. Merseyside Police confirmed at a press conference that a gunman wearing a balaclava approached two men on Kingsheath Avenue, at the Finch Road end of the road, and opened fire at them just before 10pm.
> 
> ...



And like most crime in the UK, the police are clueless as to who committed them.


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## Calypso Jones (Aug 24, 2022)

JGalt said:


> And like most crime in the UK, the police are clueless as to who committed them.


here too.


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## Donald H (Aug 24, 2022)

Pos quiz: 
Has there been more school shootings in America in 2022 than there have been mass shootings in Britain since 1900?


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## 2aguy (Aug 24, 2022)

Donald H said:


> Pos quiz:
> Has there been more school shootings in America in 2022 than there have been mass shootings in Britain since 1900?




Yes.....and?

There were fewer mass shootings in Britain when you were allowed to own and carry guns...

*Now...your turn...

Were more innocent children murdered by their governments between the years 1933-1945, or in mass public shootings in America?*

***hint******  1,500,000 children were murdered by their governments in Europe during the Socialist occupation of those countries....


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## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Aug 25, 2022)

Donald H said:


> Pos quiz:
> Has there been more school shootings in America in 2022 than there have been mass shootings in Britain since 1900?


How many school shootings took place in England prior to 1996?


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## 2aguy (Aug 25, 2022)

Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> How many school shootings took place in England prior to 1996?




And add.....when they were still allowed to own guns and hadn't banned or confiscated them...


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## Donald H (Aug 25, 2022)

2aguy said:


> And add.....when they were still allowed to own guns and hadn't banned or confiscated them...


Could you just get back to us after the guvmunt has confiscated all your guns?


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## marvin martian (Aug 25, 2022)

Donald H said:


> Could you just get back to us after the guvmunt has confiscated all your guns?


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## 2aguy (Aug 25, 2022)

Donald H said:


> Could you just get back to us after the guvmunt has confiscated all your guns?



Why doesn't the fact that the governments of Europe murdered 15 million people bother you?   Do you really think that something that actually happened in the past can't happen in the future?  How do you compute that?


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## Donald H (Aug 25, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Why doesn't the fact that the governments of Europe murdered 15 million people bother you?   Do you really think that something that actually happened in the past can't happen in the future?  How do you compute that?


It couldn't have happened that fast!!
I didn't mean just 'your' guns, I meant the entire country's guns.


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## 2aguy (Aug 25, 2022)

Donald H said:


> It couldn't have happened that fast!!
> I didn't mean just 'your' guns, I meant the entire country's guns.




What?  It actually happened...in the span of about 12 years total, with the vast majority of the actual murder happening in 6 years....1939-1945 when Americans with guns stopped it....


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## Bootney Lee Farnsworth (Aug 28, 2022)

Donald H said:


> Pos quiz:
> Has there been more school shootings in America in 2022 than there have been mass shootings in Britain since 1900?


"Pos" quiz.

Gun-free zones include which of the following:

A.  Government Building
B.  Courthouse
C.  Schools
D.  All the above
E.  Take off, hoser...eh


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## Donald H (Aug 29, 2022)

F. None of the above.


Bootney Lee Farnsworth said:


> "Pos" quiz.
> 
> Gun-free zones include which of the following:
> 
> ...


F. None of the above.

G. Guns are now necessary in all locations as a matter of survival in murica. ya'all.


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## M14 Shooter (Aug 29, 2022)

Donald H said:


> G. Guns are now necessary in all locations as a matter of survival in murica. ya'all.


This is where I ask you to demonstrare your statement to be true; you will rrespond, like you alwsys do, by tucking your tail under and runnng away.


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## Vagabond63 (Aug 31, 2022)

2aguy said:


> This isn't supposed to happen......Britain banned and confiscated guns from their law abiding citizens...but criminals need guns to protect themselves and their illegal businesses....so gun control laws will not stop them.....and it hasn't...
> 
> *Olivia Pratt-Korbel was shot dead** when she was standing behind her mum as a gunman opened fire through a gap in the doorway at the front of her home on Monday night. Merseyside Police confirmed at a press conference that a gunman wearing a balaclava approached two men on Kingsheath Avenue, at the Finch Road end of the road, and opened fire at them just before 10pm.
> 
> ...


Just out of curiousity, if everyone involved had all been armed to the teeth, how could they have prevented any of these killings in the circumstances in which they occurred? Asking for a friend...


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## Vagabond63 (Aug 31, 2022)

Oh, here's an update on the case, if anyone is interested.









						Olivia Pratt-Korbel: police bail two men arrested over death of girl in Liverpool
					

Two men, aged 36 and 33, had been arrested on suspicion of murder after nine-year-old was shot in her home




					www.theguardian.com


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## Vagabond63 (Aug 31, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Britain banned and confiscated guns from their law abiding citizens...


Once again 2aguy is lying through his teeth. The only weapons banned were handguns under a certain barrel length  and semi automatic assault rifles. None were confiscated, they were bought back from gun owners, there are still roughly 1.5-2 million legally owned firearms in the UK not counting Northern Ireland. There are an estimated 1.1 million unregistered/illegal firearms in the UK, including Northern Ireland.

The UK has never had a gun culture; handgun ownership was always a "fringe" movement. Basically, we don't need handguns for self defence over here. The 1996 Act was designed to prevent the possibilty of any growth in mass shootings, like you have in America, so far it has worked, albeit with one or two notable exceptions since.


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## citygator (Aug 31, 2022)

Another moron points to a country with a fraction of our gun deaths and says “see what happens when everyone doesn’t have a gun?”


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## 2aguy (Aug 31, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Just out of curiousity, if everyone involved had all been armed to the teeth, how could they have prevented any of these killings in the circumstances in which they occurred? Asking for a friend...



One, the criminals might not have just barged in without fear of getting shot.......Criminals in Britain have nothing to fear from your people, so they can invade homes at will........


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## 2aguy (Aug 31, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Once again 2aguy is lying through his teeth. The only weapons banned were handguns under a certain barrel length  and semi automatic assault rifles. None were confiscated, they were bought back from gun owners, there are still roughly 1.5-2 million legally owned firearms in the UK not counting Northern Ireland. There are an estimated 1.1 million unregistered/illegal firearms in the UK, including Northern Ireland.
> 
> The UK has never had a gun culture; handgun ownership was always a "fringe" movement. Basically, we don't need handguns for self defence over here. The 1996 Act was designed to prevent the possibilty of any growth in mass shootings, like you have in America, so far it has worked, albeit with one or two notable exceptions since.




Moron.....forced "buy backs," which are not buy backs but confiscation with reimbursment is confiscation....you doofus.....

Give us your gun or you will be arrested....that isn't voluntary...

And please......using your number....with the 1.1 million unregistered guns in your country, what keeps the owners of those guns from walking into a school, a mall, a church, or a theater and shooting people....?  Please, do tell....

We don't have a growth in mass public shootings.....we had 6 in 2021, out of 350 million people, 2 in 2020.........tell us how that is "growth," in any rational sense of the word.....

Meanwhile, again.....

You have to explain to us how it is that we have about 2 million gun murders in our 246 year history...if you allow 20,000 gun murders each year.......and that is giving a lot of extra gun murders to use that number....

In Europe, across the pond from you, after they took guns away from people in the 1920s........in 6 years, from 1939-1945 you guys murdered 15 million innocent men, women and children......6 years.........

Can you tell which number is bigger?

So before you get smug....you have to explain how it is that guns control helped on the Continent......you could ask the 15 million men, women and children....but they were murdered by the very governments that took away their guns.....telling them they would be safer if they gave them up...

And, also, the gun murders in the U.S. are mainly criminals murdered by criminals...the 15 million you guys murdered were innocent people....not criminals...

Get back to us when our numbers reach your numbers.....


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## 2aguy (Aug 31, 2022)

citygator said:


> Another moron points to a country with a fraction of our gun deaths and says “see what happens when everyone doesn’t have a gun?”




They murdered 15 million innocent men, women and children in just about 6 years..........in 246 years of our country, roughly 2 million criminals murdered each other with guns......

They gave up their guns on the promise it would make them safer....can you see that it really didn't?


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## Captain Caveman (Sep 2, 2022)

2aguy said:


> This isn't supposed to happen......Britain banned and confiscated guns from their law abiding citizens...but criminals need guns to protect themselves and their illegal businesses....so gun control laws will not stop them.....and it hasn't...
> 
> *Olivia Pratt-Korbel was shot dead** when she was standing behind her mum as a gunman opened fire through a gap in the doorway at the front of her home on Monday night. Merseyside Police confirmed at a press conference that a gunman wearing a balaclava approached two men on Kingsheath Avenue, at the Finch Road end of the road, and opened fire at them just before 10pm.
> 
> ...


FOR SALE :
New school uniform
Never worn
Ideal for a girl aged nine


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## M14 Shooter (Sep 2, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> FOR SALE :
> New school uniform
> Never worn
> Ideal for a girl aged nine


Yours?


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## Captain Caveman (Sep 2, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Yours?


Sickipedia joke. Do keep up failed engineer.


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## 2aguy (Sep 2, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> FOR SALE :
> New school uniform
> Never worn
> Ideal for a girl aged nine




The governments of Europe murdered 1,500,000 children from 1939-1945.....how many of their uniforms did you guys sell?


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## Captain Caveman (Sep 2, 2022)

2aguy said:


> The governments of Europe murdered 1,500,000 children from 1939-1945.....how many of their uniforms did you guys sell?


1,499,999

Plus a few gold teeth.

Edit - Hey, checkout my thread -






						Zone1 - Thread IQ test
					

Can I suggest that USMB be the first forum that develops and plugs in an add on that requires members to pass a simple IQ test to post on a thread.  So each thread has it's own little test, so you can only post on that thread if you passed. The person starting the thread, gets to choose the IQ...



					www.usmessageboard.com
				




If this was also applied to thread creation, you wouldn't get to create any.


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## candycorn (Sep 3, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Once again 2aguy is lying through his teeth. The only weapons banned were handguns under a certain barrel length  and semi automatic assault rifles. None were confiscated, they were bought back from gun owners, there are still roughly 1.5-2 million legally owned firearms in the UK not counting Northern Ireland. There are an estimated 1.1 million unregistered/illegal firearms in the UK, including Northern Ireland.
> 
> The UK has never had a gun culture; handgun ownership was always a "fringe" movement. Basically, we don't need handguns for self defence over here. The 1996 Act was designed to prevent the possibilty of any growth in mass shootings, like you have in America, so far it has worked, albeit with one or two notable exceptions since.


Wow, I can't believe it.

You mean you guys don't want legislation like our 2nd Amendment?  It's been such a rousing success over here.  30K gun deaths a year and counting....I can't believe you don't want to import that sort of mayhem into your nation.


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## 2aguy (Sep 3, 2022)

candycorn said:


> Wow, I can't believe it.
> 
> You mean you guys don't want legislation like our 2nd Amendment?  It's been such a rousing success over here.  30K gun deaths a year and counting....I can't believe you don't want to import that sort of mayhem into your nation.




And you lie.....putting suicide in with gun murder....

Again, since you are an anti-gun fanatic and that makes you dishonest and irrational...

Europe between 1939-1945 murdered 15 million innocent men, women and children........I know that number confuses you.....

These were innocent people, rounded up by their governments under the direction of the socialists from Germany........

15 million people......

No one from there should have the nerve to talk about crime or murder for about the next 200 years.

In the U.S.....criminals in the U.S. make up the majority of those murdered with guns in this country....they are not innocent men, women and children......the actual innocent men, women and children who are murdered with guns, are again a majority of people who are associated with criminals...friends, family, criminal associates....

The average year of gun murder in the U.S. is about 10,000 people...again, majority criminals....

If you double that, to account for years with more gun crime.......and multiply that by 246, the total number of years the United States has been in existence...you get 4,920,000 majority criminals murdered.....

In 246 years of gun murder....

You guys murdered 15 million innocent men, women and children in 6 years....

Can you even begin to comprehend the truth of those numbers and facts?


And you guys murdered all of those people after you swore to them that giving up their guns would make the safer...the same arguments you use today....

And not only have you forgotten those murdered people.....you still demand that people in Europe not have guns...

You are insane...


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## candycorn (Sep 3, 2022)

2aguy said:


> You are insane...


Yet you’re the one shrugging at 30,000 gun deaths a year.

Fuck off you dickless wonder


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## 2aguy (Sep 3, 2022)

candycorn said:


> Yet you’re the one shrugging at 30,000 gun deaths a year.
> 
> Fuck off you dickless wonder



Nope… you have to lie and use suicides to make your number higher, because you are a dishonest anti-gun fanatic….


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## 2aguy (Sep 3, 2022)

candycorn said:


> Yet you’re the one shrugging at 30,000 gun deaths a year.
> 
> Fuck off you dickless wonder



You are actually shrugging off the deaths of 15 million innocent people cause you can’t explain how it can’t happen again since Europe didn’t learn anything and still limits gun ownership


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## ThunderKiss1965 (Sep 4, 2022)

Donald H said:


> Pos quiz:
> Has there been more school shootings in America in 2022 than there have been mass shootings in Britain since 1900?


And there is the but, but America.


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## ThunderKiss1965 (Sep 4, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> FOR SALE :
> New school uniform
> Never worn
> Ideal for a girl aged nine


Gun free zones are dangerous.


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## Vagabond63 (Sep 5, 2022)

2aguy said:


> One, the criminals might not have just barged in without fear of getting shot.......


If that were true, then there'd be no "home invasions" in gun soaked America.


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## Vagabond63 (Sep 5, 2022)

2aguy said:


> And please......using your number....with the 1.1 million unregistered guns in your country, what keeps the owners of those guns from walking into a school, a mall, a church, or a theater and shooting people....? Please, do tell....


Well, unregistered firearms in the UK includes antiques. A friend of mine has two Martini-Henry rifles and an Adams revolver. He has no firearms licence, but is considered legal. As for walking into a school, blah, blah. Aren't such massacres in America carried out by "normal" "responsible" gun owners who have no criminal records until they pull the trigger?


2aguy said:


> Moron.....forced "buy backs," which are not buy backs but confiscation with reimbursment is confiscation....you doofus.....


Well, there was no obligation on the Government to compensate gun owners at the time, it was just the fair and civilised way of getting handgun owners to comply with the law.


2aguy said:


> You have to explain to us how it is that we have about 2 million gun murders in our 246 year history...if you allow 20,000 gun murders each year.......and that is giving a lot of extra gun murders to use that number....
> 
> In Europe, across the pond from you, after they took guns away from people in the 1920s........in 6 years, from 1939-1945 you guys murdered 15 million innocent men, women and children......6 years.........


Ah, comparing chalk and cheese again. Your gun murders were carried out in peacetime by civilians, ours were carried out during a brutal war, by Far Right wing Fascists and Far Left wing Communists, and their puppet regimes, usually by soldiers or security forces in response to acts of armed resistance to those regimes. If you can't grasp the difference, I pity you.


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## 2aguy (Sep 5, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> If that were true, then there'd be no "home invasions" in gun soaked America.



Not every home has a gun…..and criminals can be very stupid…….each year about 235 of them are killed when they attack victims who are actually pointing guns at them……..


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## 2aguy (Sep 5, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Well, unregistered firearms in the UK includes antiques. A friend of mine has two Martini-Henry rifles and an Adams revolver. He has no firearms licence, but is considered legal. As for walking into a school, blah, blah. Aren't such massacres in America carried out by "normal" "responsible" gun owners who have no criminal records until they pull the trigger?
> 
> Well, there was no obligation on the Government to compensate gun owners at the time, it was just the fair and civilised way of getting handgun owners to comply with the law.
> 
> Ah, comparing chalk and cheese again. Your gun murders were carried out in peacetime by civilians, ours were carried out during a brutal war, by Far Right wing Fascists and Far Left wing Communists, and their puppet regimes, usually by soldiers or security forces in response to acts of armed resistance to those regimes. If you can't grasp the difference, I pity you.



No…the vast majority of gun murder victims in the U.S. are criminals murdered by other criminals as they live the criminal life…..

And no…the 15 million murdered innocent men, women and children were not part of the collateral damage from military combat…….these 15 million were innocent civilians, rounded up by the various governments under the control of the German Socialists and murdered…….

You can lie about this ….as expected since you are an anti-gun fanatic, but the truth is the truth…….you and the other Europeans can’t explain why this could never happen again…..and your refusal to understand how a free, armed people can keep it from happening again will make it more, not less likely…


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## 2aguy (Sep 5, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Well, unregistered firearms in the UK includes antiques. A friend of mine has two Martini-Henry rifles and an Adams revolver. He has no firearms licence, but is considered legal. As for walking into a school, blah, blah. Aren't such massacres in America carried out by "normal" "responsible" gun owners who have no criminal records until they pull the trigger?
> 
> Well, there was no obligation on the Government to compensate gun owners at the time, it was just the fair and civilised way of getting handgun owners to comply with the law.
> 
> Ah, comparing chalk and cheese again. Your gun murders were carried out in peacetime by civilians, ours were carried out during a brutal war, by Far Right wing Fascists and Far Left wing Communists, and their puppet regimes, usually by soldiers or security forces in response to acts of armed resistance to those regimes. If you can't grasp the difference, I pity you.



And you still can’t explain how your gun laws stop school shootings and other mass public shootings….you admit that guns are still available….and the British police admit they can’t stop the increasing flow of illegal guns into the country…


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## Papageorgio (Sep 5, 2022)

2aguy said:


> This isn't supposed to happen......Britain banned and confiscated guns from their law abiding citizens...but criminals need guns to protect themselves and their illegal businesses....so gun control laws will not stop them.....and it hasn't...
> 
> *Olivia Pratt-Korbel was shot dead** when she was standing behind her mum as a gunman opened fire through a gap in the doorway at the front of her home on Monday night. Merseyside Police confirmed at a press conference that a gunman wearing a balaclava approached two men on Kingsheath Avenue, at the Finch Road end of the road, and opened fire at them just before 10pm.
> 
> ...


But, but, but Americans are worser!


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## 2aguy (Sep 5, 2022)

ThunderKiss1965


Vagabond63 said:


> Well, unregistered firearms in the UK includes antiques. A friend of mine has two Martini-Henry rifles and an Adams revolver. He has no firearms licence, but is considered legal. As for walking into a school, blah, blah. Aren't such massacres in America carried out by "normal" "responsible" gun owners who have no criminal records until they pull the trigger?
> 
> Well, there was no obligation on the Government to compensate gun owners at the time, it was just the fair and civilised way of getting handgun owners to comply with the law.
> 
> Ah, comparing chalk and cheese again. Your gun murders were carried out in peacetime by civilians, ours were carried out during a brutal war, by Far Right wing Fascists and Far Left wing Communists, and their puppet regimes, usually by soldiers or security forces in response to acts of armed resistance to those regimes. If you can't grasp the difference, I pity you.



Fascists are left wingers…….you dope……fascism and communism are simply two flavors of socialism.   The term “fascism,” was created by life long communist, Benito Mussolini….who was kicked out of the communist party so he started his own brand of socialism.


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## Vagabond63 (Sep 6, 2022)

2aguy said:


> ThunderKiss1965
> 
> 
> Fascists are left wingers…….you dope……fascism and communism are simply two flavors of socialism.   The term “fascism,” was created by life long communist, Benito Mussolini….who was kicked out of the communist party so he started his own brand of socialism.


Oh good grief, even Wikipedia disagrees with you. Fascism and ideology - Wikipedia
"Fascism supported private property rights – except for the groups which it persecuted – and the profit motive of capitalism, but it sought to eliminate the autonomy of large-scale capitalism from the state. Its adherents shared many of the goals of the conservatives of their day and they often allied themselves with them by drawing recruits from disaffected conservative ranks, but they presented themselves as holding a more modern ideology, with less focus on things like traditional religion. Fascism opposed class conflict and the egalitarian and international character of socialism. It strongly opposed liberalism, communism, anarchism, and democratic socialism."

Sounds a lot like "Trumpism" to me, and what your GOP stands for from what I've seen.


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## Vagabond63 (Sep 6, 2022)

2aguy said:


> And you still can’t explain how your gun laws stop school shootings and other mass public shootings….you admit that guns are still available….and the British police admit they can’t stop the increasing flow of illegal guns into the country…


I have, several times, but it never seems to penetrate your cranium. 
One more time then, our laws for firearm ownership are designed to weed out those people who could be a threat to society if they were to own a firearm. No law ever functions perfectly, but when you compare the number of multiple homicides with firearms between the UK and the USA, our laws work to our satisfaction. 

Interestingly, the majority of your mass murderers were "responsible" and "law abiding" until they walked into a school or shopping centre, or store, or church and started shooting. Then they became "disturbed" or "crazy"; you know, those people we in the UK think should not be able to own firearms.

Oh, it's not the job of the Police to stop the smuggling of firearms into the UK, that's the responsibility of the UK Border Force, a separate organisation.


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## Vagabond63 (Sep 6, 2022)

Papageorgio said:


> But, but, but Americans are worser!


Given the number of gun killings and woundings compared to the UK, yes you are.


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## Vagabond63 (Sep 6, 2022)

2aguy said:


> And no…the 15 million murdered innocent men, women and children were not part of the collateral damage from military combat…….these 15 million were innocent civilians, rounded up by the various governments under the control of the German Socialists and murdered…….


Oh good grief, I never said they were, do keep up. 
"Far Right wing Fascists and Far Left wing Communists, and their puppet regimes, usually by soldiers or security forces *in response to acts of armed resistance to those regimes."*


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## Vagabond63 (Sep 6, 2022)

2aguy said:


> You can lie about this ….as expected since you are an anti-gun fanatic, but the truth is the truth…


*sigh* Once again, I'm not an anti-gun fanatic, I have no problem with guns, I used to own three myself before the law changed as I've stated before time after time. I am in favour of controlling who is allowed to own a firearm and in general, we here in the UK don't need guns for self defence, it's called civilisation.


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## 2aguy (Sep 6, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Oh good grief, even Wikipedia disagrees with you. Fascism and ideology - Wikipedia
> "Fascism supported private property rights – except for the groups which it persecuted – and the profit motive of capitalism, but it sought to eliminate the autonomy of large-scale capitalism from the state. Its adherents shared many of the goals of the conservatives of their day and they often allied themselves with them by drawing recruits from disaffected conservative ranks, but they presented themselves as holding a more modern ideology, with less focus on things like traditional religion. Fascism opposed class conflict and the egalitarian and international character of socialism. It strongly opposed liberalism, communism, anarchism, and democratic socialism."
> 
> Sounds a lot like "Trumpism" to me, and what your GOP stands for from what I've seen.




Wikipedia?

Now that is funny......

Here....dumb ass...a real definition...

Fascism: The Concise Encyclopedia of Economics | Library of Economics and Liberty


*As an economic system, fascism is socialism with a capitalist veneer. *

The word derives from _fasces,_ the Roman symbol of collectivism and power: a tied bundle of rods with a protruding ax. In its day (the 1920s and 1930s), fascism was seen as the happy medium between boom-and-bust-prone liberal capitalism, with its alleged class conflict, wasteful *competition*, and profit-oriented egoism, and revolutionary *Marxism*, with its violent and socially divisive persecution of the bourgeoisie. 

Fascism substituted the particularity of nationalism and racialism—“blood and soil”—for the internationalism of both classical liberalism and Marxism.
*Where socialism sought totalitarian control of a society’s economic processes through direct state operation of the means of production, fascism sought that control indirectly, through domination of nominally private owners.*

*Where socialism nationalized property explicitly, fascism did so implicitly, by requiring owners to use their property in the “national interest”—that is, as the autocratic authority conceived it. (Nevertheless, a few industries were operated by the state.)
*
Where socialism abolished all market relations outright, fascism left the appearance of market relations while planning all economic activities. Where socialism abolished money and prices, fascism controlled the monetary system and set all prices and wages politically.
x
*In doing all this, fascism denatured the marketplace.Entrepreneurship was abolished. State ministries, rather than consumers, determined what was produced and under what conditions.*


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## bodecea (Sep 6, 2022)

2aguy said:


> This isn't supposed to happen......Britain banned and confiscated guns from their law abiding citizens...but criminals need guns to protect themselves and their illegal businesses....so gun control laws will not stop them.....and it hasn't...
> 
> *Olivia Pratt-Korbel was shot dead** when she was standing behind her mum as a gunman opened fire through a gap in the doorway at the front of her home on Monday night. Merseyside Police confirmed at a press conference that a gunman wearing a balaclava approached two men on Kingsheath Avenue, at the Finch Road end of the road, and opened fire at them just before 10pm.
> 
> ...


One... how many in Uvalde?


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 6, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> I have, several times, but it never seems to penetrate your cranium.
> One more time then, our laws for firearm ownership are designed to weed out those people who could be a threat to society if they were to own a firearm. No law ever functions perfectly, but when you compare the number of multiple homicides with firearms between the UK and the USA, our laws work to our satisfaction.
> 
> Interestingly, the majority of your mass murderers were "responsible" and "law abiding" until they walked into a school or shopping centre, or store, or church and started shooting. Then they became "disturbed" or "crazy"; you know, those people we in the UK think should not be able to own firearms.
> ...




Again...before you banned guns you had a tiny number of mass public shootings....after you banned guns you had the same tiny number of mass public shootings...that shows, you doofus......that gun ownership isn't the issue....

Meanwhile, in the U.S.....we have over 350 million Americans, with about 50 million with some form of mental illness......

We had 6 mass public shootings in 2021.....

6 people out of over 350 million....

With over 600 million guns in private hands......

So no, we don't have a problem with mass public shooters....

We have a real problem with the democrat party releasing violent gun offenders who have long criminal records....and they release these individuals over and over again....


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 6, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> *sigh* Once again, I'm not an anti-gun fanatic, I have no problem with guns, I used to own three myself before the law changed as I've stated before time after time. I am in favour of controlling who is allowed to own a firearm and in general, we here in the UK don't need guns for self defence, it's called civilisation.




Yeah....keep telling yourself that as your criminals fear your police less and less each year......


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 6, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> I have, several times, but it never seems to penetrate your cranium.
> One more time then, our laws for firearm ownership are designed to weed out those people who could be a threat to society if they were to own a firearm. No law ever functions perfectly, but when you compare the number of multiple homicides with firearms between the UK and the USA, our laws work to our satisfaction.
> 
> Interestingly, the majority of your mass murderers were "responsible" and "law abiding" until they walked into a school or shopping centre, or store, or church and started shooting. Then they became "disturbed" or "crazy"; you know, those people we in the UK think should not be able to own firearms.
> ...




Yes....your weeding out process must be why gun crime is increasing........

*Concerns are now being raised about the growing availability of firearms in parts of the north of England and the Midlands as some police forces are struggling to tackle rising gun crime with fewer officers than they had a decade ago.*
*
The sharpest rise is in the north-east, where gun crime has more than tripled from an average of 91 firearms offences a year between 2009 and 2012, to 294 a year between 2019 and 2022.

In the Cleveland police area, firearms offences have risen almost sixfold, from a yearly average of 22 to 127. Durham, Sussex, Lincolnshire, Northumbria, South Yorkshire, Norfolk and Kent police have all seen numbers more than double in 10 years.
*
*While big cities dominate the headlines, the rise in gun crime in places such as Sussex, Kent and Cheshire is probably down to what has become known as “county lines” – urban organised crime groups pushing out into rural areas – said Peter Squires, a gun crime expert and professor of criminology at the University of Brighton.*

Gun crime rising in two-thirds of police force areas in England and Wales


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 8, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Yes....your weeding out process must be why gun crime is increasing........
> 
> *Concerns are now being raised about the growing availability of firearms in parts of the north of England and the Midlands as some police forces are struggling to tackle rising gun crime with fewer officers than they had a decade ago.*
> 
> ...


Yes, but as the "gun crime" is criminal v criminal, by your constant arguments, it doesn't count!


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 8, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Yeah....keep telling yourself that as your criminals fear your police less and less each year......


...and another "fear pill". Our police are armed when needed, thank you.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 8, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Again...before you banned guns you had a tiny number of mass public shootings....after you banned guns you had the same tiny number of mass public shootings...that shows, you doofus......that gun ownership isn't the issue....
> 
> Meanwhile, in the U.S.....we have over 350 million Americans, with about 50 million with some form of mental illness......
> 
> ...


Not talking about your FBI's definition of "mass public shootings," I mentioned multiple homicides with firearms, what really goes on in both our countries.


----------



## Paracetamol63 (Sep 8, 2022)

2aguy said:


> This isn't supposed to happen......Britain banned and confiscated guns from their law abiding citizens...but criminals need guns to protect themselves and their illegal businesses....so gun control laws will not stop them.....and it hasn't...
> 
> *Olivia Pratt-Korbel was shot dead** when she was standing behind her mum as a gunman opened fire through a gap in the doorway at the front of her home on Monday night. Merseyside Police confirmed at a press conference that a gunman wearing a balaclava approached two men on Kingsheath Avenue, at the Finch Road end of the road, and opened fire at them just before 10pm.
> 
> ...



Yup.  A few gun murders is the same as hundreds a day.  US=UK


----------



## Paracetamol63 (Sep 8, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> ...and another "fear pill". Our police are armed when needed, thank you.



I think the view in America is "when needed" = ALWAYS.

And "our police" = Any random dude with a gun fetish and some spare cash.

THAT'S the Second Amendment in a nutshell.


----------



## Paracetamol63 (Sep 8, 2022)

Gabe Lackmann said:


> They also don't have the First Amendment...so they can't talk about it either.



Wow.  SOunds like the British live in a prison camp!  No guns and no freedom of speech!  Sounds like NORTH KOREA if I were to listen to most posters on here.

Unfortunately I've actually been there many times and it didn't seem that horrible.  But then I was there for work most of the time and didn't need to have a gun.


----------



## Paracetamol63 (Sep 8, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> The UK has never had a gun culture; handgun ownership was always a "fringe" movement.



I think this is the problem in the US.  We have a "gun culture" which is what I grew up in in the Midwest. Hunters and the like.  They treated guns as dangerous tools that should be handled with great care.  Nowadays too many Americans have turned that into a game of "childhood fantasy" and "Wild West Cowboy Fantasy".  We have a sick relationship with guns now.  And that's part of the problem.


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 8, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Not talking about your FBI's definition of "mass public shootings," I mentioned multiple homicides with firearms, what really goes on in both our countries.




Among criminals.......in your country as in the U.S....but you guys want to have it both ways, call out gun crime in the U.S....which is 99% criminals murdering criminals...as it is in Britain, then hide the gun crime in Britain by saying it is criminals murdering criminals......

You doofus.


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 8, 2022)

Paracetamol63 said:


> I think this is the problem in the US.  We have a "gun culture" which is what I grew up in in the Midwest. Hunters and the like.  They treated guns as dangerous tools that should be handled with great care.  Nowadays too many Americans have turned that into a game of "childhood fantasy" and "Wild West Cowboy Fantasy".  We have a sick relationship with guns now.  And that's part of the problem.




No....that is incorrect.  What we have is a political party, the democrat party, that refuses to keep violent gun criminals locked up.

Our gun crime is not normal people who use their guns to shoot each other for fun.....our gun crime is hardened criminals, in democrat party controlled cities, who shoot at people, and then, when caught, they are released over and over again by democrat party judges, prosecutors and politicians.......

We don't have a sick relationship with guns....that would be a lie......we have a political party that refuses to enforce the law against known, repeat, violent gun offenders in the cities they control...


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 8, 2022)

Paracetamol63 said:


> I think the view in America is "when needed" = ALWAYS.
> 
> And "our police" = Any random dude with a gun fetish and some spare cash.
> 
> THAT'S the Second Amendment in a nutshell.




Wow...the dumb is strong with you........

You have no idea what you are talking about......and yet you talk about it with such confidence...


----------



## Gabe Lackmann (Sep 8, 2022)

Paracetamol63 said:


> Wow.  SOunds like the British live in a prison camp!  No guns and no freedom of speech!  Sounds like NORTH KOREA if I were to listen to most posters on here.
> 
> Unfortunately I've actually been there many times and it didn't seem that horrible.  But then I was there for work most of the time and didn't need to have a gun.


Cognitive dissonance much?






						UK Man Arrested For ‘Malicious Communications’ After Posting Meme Mocking the Transgender Flag | Brad Polumbo
					

According to the BBC, the man was arrested for “malicious communications,” while another man who recorded the incident was arrested for supposedly “obstructing an arrest.”



					fee.org


----------



## Paracetamol63 (Sep 8, 2022)

Gabe Lackmann said:


> Cognitive dissonance much?



No, it's called a PASSPORT.  It's how you learn about other cultures.


----------



## Paracetamol63 (Sep 8, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Wow...the dumb is strong with you........



Really?  I wouldn't be surprised.



2aguy said:


> You have no idea what you are talking about......and yet you talk about it with such confidence...



Do I?  Really?  Wow.  Thanks!  I normally don't get that.  

Wow.  I speak with confidence.  Cool.  Yay me!


----------



## Gabe Lackmann (Sep 8, 2022)

Paracetamol63 said:


> No, it's called a PASSPORT.  It's how you learn about other cultures.



When NPCs speak.


----------



## Paracetamol63 (Sep 8, 2022)

2aguy said:


> No....that is incorrect.  What we have is a political party, the democrat party, that refuses to keep violent gun criminals locked up.



No, I grew up around hunters and guns and I know what a "healthy" gun culture looks like.  The modern American Second Amendment Auditor carrying loaded AR-15's into a Starbucks are what you get when people develop a sick gun culture dominated by childish views of the gun.



2aguy said:


> Our gun crime is not normal people who use their guns to shoot each other for fun.....our gun crime is hardened criminals, in democrat party controlled cities, who shoot at people, and then, when caught, they are released over and over again by democrat party judges, prosecutors and politicians.......



That's a gross oversimplification.  I understand you HATE, really hate, Democrats.  Probably hate them so much, well, you know...

But it's oversimplification to assume that all gun crimes happen under Democrat control.  That isn't how it works at all.  

But I do kind of have a bit of fear that you have demonized Democrats so much someone might be inspired to, well, you know...  I mean, what else COULD you mean when you lay at the feet of Democrats all the gun homicides and all the crime?


----------



## Paracetamol63 (Sep 8, 2022)

Gabe Lackmann said:


> When NPCs speak.



Thank you!  I actually have played NPC's before in an RPG.  LOL. It was a trip.  The GM gave me control of an NPC and let me take it where I wanted it to go.  Turned out I was tuned in enough with the GM that it actually WORKED!  LOL.


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 8, 2022)

Paracetamol63 said:


> No, I grew up around hunters and guns and I know what a "healthy" gun culture looks like.  The modern American Second Amendment Auditor carrying loaded AR-15's into a Starbucks are what you get when people develop a sick gun culture dominated by childish views of the gun.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Wrong.......you talk about a hand full of people, vs. the democrat party releasing thousands and thousands of violent criminals over and over again, no matter what crimes they commit...that is the problem, not the handful you want to complain about....and that handful carrying their rifle in starbucks?  Don't fire their weapons or shoot anyone....while the repeat gun offenders released by the democrats are shooting at and hitting people every night of the week...

And yet.....the political violence in this country is 99.9% from the democrat party.....7 months of their brown shirts, blm, and antifa, actually looting, burning and murdering about 40 people...........actual violence....then you have the blm supporter murdering police in Dallas, the bernie sanders guy trying to murder the Republican baseball team, and the democrat trying to murder conservative Supreme Court Justices while the democrat party controlled DOJ does nothing.......

You are, again, all wrong....


----------



## Paracetamol63 (Sep 8, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Wrong.......you talk about a hand full of people, vs. the democrat party releasing thousands and thousands of violent criminals over and over again,



-sigh-

We DEFINITELY read you loud and clear:  Democrats are evil.  Got it.





2aguy said:


> And yet.....the political violence in this country is 99.9% from the democrat party.....7 months of their brown shirts, blm, and antifa, actually looting, burning and murdering about 40 people...........actual violence....then you have the blm supporter murdering police in Dallas, the bernie sanders guy trying to murder the Republican baseball team, and the democrat trying to murder conservative Supreme Court Justices while the democrat party controlled DOJ does nothing.......
> 
> You are, again, all wrong....



I hope and pray that your deep seated hatred doesn't lead you to do something...well, you know.  When people in the defense of guns determine that an entire group is dedicated to pure evil it seems like setting up a very bad scenario.


----------



## Captain Caveman (Sep 8, 2022)

2aguy said:


> IThis isn't supposed to happen......Britain banned and confiscated guns from their law abiding citizens...but criminals need guns to protect themselves and their illegal businesses....so gun control laws will not stop them.....and it hasn't...
> 
> *Olivia Pratt-Korbel was shot dead** when she was standing behind her mum as a gunman opened fire through a gap in the doorway at the front of her home on Monday night. Merseyside Police confirmed at a press conference that a gunman wearing a balaclava approached two men on Kingsheath Avenue, at the Finch Road end of the road, and opened fire at them just before 10pm.
> 
> ...


Apparently, having a 2nd Amendment reduces gun crime to virtually zero......erm.......hang on........the opposite happens  🤔


----------



## Paracetamol63 (Sep 8, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Apparently, having a 2nd Amendment reduces gun crime to virtually zero......erm.......hang on........the opposite happens  🤔



Sure America has crazy high levels of gun killings but you have to remember they are "Freedom Bullets" that are flying.  A symbol of our beloved national bird:  the bullet.


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 8, 2022)

Paracetamol63 said:


> -sigh-
> 
> We DEFINITELY read you loud and clear:  Democrats are evil.  Got it.
> 
> ...



Yeah…. The only violence that has killed people has all been from the democrat party brownshirts, blm and antifa and Bernie sanders
Supporters


----------



## Paracetamol63 (Sep 8, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Yeah…. The only violence that has killed people has all been from the democrat party brownshirts, blm and antifa and Bernie sanders
> Supporters



Well, please don't do anything rash to protect yourself from them.  People who see pure evil in others are sometimes prone to doing something.....bad.

I hope you can maintain your calm in the face of such overwhelming evil that you see.


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 8, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Apparently, having a 2nd Amendment reduces gun crime to virtually zero......erm.......hang on........the opposite happens  🤔



You still haven’t explained how the governments of Europe murdered 15 million innocent men, women and children….after they gave up their guns…….more people murdered than the number of gun murders in the U.S. over our entire 246 year history and your governments murdered those 15 million in just 6 years…..

Tell us again how we have the problem….


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 8, 2022)

Paracetamol63 said:


> Sure America has crazy high levels of gun killings...


>423,000,000 guns.
Around 35,000 "gun killings"
>99.9917% of guns in the US are not used to kill anyone.
There's your "high rate".


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 8, 2022)

Paracetamol63 said:


> -sigh-
> 
> We DEFINITELY read you loud and clear:  Democrats are evil.  Got it.
> 
> ...



And, of course, the 7 months of actual violence and murder by the democrats is completely ignored by you…….and you think you are clever…..


----------



## Paracetamol63 (Sep 8, 2022)

2aguy said:


> And, of course, the 7 months of actual violence and murder by the democrats is completely ignored by you…….and you think you are clever…..



I'm not clever.  Just scared a bit when I see someone who loves guns   demonize entire swaths of the country and just keeps on at it.

It's worrying.


----------



## Captain Caveman (Sep 8, 2022)

Paracetamol63 said:


> Sure America has crazy high levels of gun killings but you have to remember they are "Freedom Bullets" that are flying.  A symbol of our beloved national bird:  the bullet.


Yes, I've heard that some cranky Americans believe freedom is down to having a gun, yet they incarcerate more of their population than any other country.


----------



## Paracetamol63 (Sep 8, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> >423,000,000 guns.
> Around 35,000 "gun killings"
> >99.9917% of guns in the US are not used to kill anyone.
> There's your "high rate".



Then I wonder why everyone finds it so annoying.

Sounds like it isn't bad at all.  

Guess I wasn't looking at the right numbers.  Kept getting distracted when elementary schools keep getting shot up.  I'll make sure to stick with the real "happy" numbers instead.


----------



## Captain Caveman (Sep 8, 2022)

2aguy said:


> You still haven’t explained how the governments of Europe murdered 15 million innocent men, women and children….after they gave up their guns…….more people murdered than the number of gun murders in the U.S. over our entire 246 year history and your governments murdered those 15 million in just 6 years…..
> 
> Tell us again how we have the problem….


You have the 2nd Amendment, more guns, everyone is armed to the teeth, self defence fallacy etc.. Why dose the 2nd Amendment produce the opposite effect to a safe gun culture?


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 8, 2022)

Paracetamol63 said:


> Then I wonder why everyone finds it so annoying.


Political agenda.   
The push for additional unnecessary and ineffective restrictions on the right to keep and brear arms by the law abiding has nothign to do with reducing the numbe rof people killed with firearms.


Paracetamol63 said:


> Guess I wasn't looking at the right numbers.  Kept getting distracted when elementary schools keep getting shot up.


Ohh..  standing on the bodies and bathing in the blood of innocent children to push an agedna.
Bad form.


----------



## Paracetamol63 (Sep 8, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Political agenda.
> The push for additional unnecessary and ineffective restrictions on the right to keep and brear arms by the law abiding has nothign to do with reducing the numbe rof people killed with firearms.



Wow.  And to think at least 50% of the US actually DOESN'T like seeing mass shootings as commonly as we have them.


M14 Shooter said:


> Ohh..  standing on the bodies and bathing in the blood of innocent children to push an agedna.
> Bad form.



Ahhh, so it's the NRA that is keeping us safe from the gun grabbers?  

The tiny price we pay is the occasional slaughter of a bunch of elementary school kids?

Hmmm, not sure if the price is REALLY worth it, but I also understand some people have different hobbies.


----------



## Paracetamol63 (Sep 8, 2022)

The ONE USEFUL THING about school shootings is that it tells you where the next NRA convention will be held.  Usually within a few miles of the site.  Sort of a "victory lap" for Wayne LaPierre et al.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 8, 2022)

Paracetamol63 said:


> Wow.  And to think at least 50% of the US actually DOESN'T like seeing mass shootings as commonly as we have them.


It's probably higher than that.
However, those who have the knee-jerk "OMGbangunstheyrebad!!!" reaction to them are drivern by agenda.   
And ignorance.


Paracetamol63 said:


> Ahhh, so it's the NRA that is keeping us safe from the gun grabbers?


Look at you, trying to side-step away form the fact you happily stand on the bodies of innocent children as a means to push your agenda.
If your position were sound, you would not need to support it with an a_rgumentum ad passiones_ fallacy.
​


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 8, 2022)

Paracetamol63 said:


> The ONE USEFUL THING about school shootings is that it tells you where the next NRA convention will be held.  Usually within a few miles of the site.  Sort of a "victory lap" for Wayne LaPierre et al.


^^^^
Mindless nonsense.


----------



## Paracetamol63 (Sep 8, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> ^^^^
> Mindless nonsense.



Sure, sure.


----------



## Paracetamol63 (Sep 8, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Look at you, trying to side-step away form the fact you happily stand on the bodies of innocent children



I think they make me look fat when I'm standing up here...what do you think?


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 8, 2022)

Paracetamol63 said:


> I think they make me look fat when I'm standing up here...what do you think?


If your position were sound, you would not need to support it with an a_rgumentum ad passiones_ fallacy.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 8, 2022)

Paracetamol63 said:


> Sure, sure.


Concession accepted.


----------



## Paracetamol63 (Sep 8, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Concession accepted.



you bet.


----------



## Paracetamol63 (Sep 8, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> If your position were sound, you would not need to support it with an a_rgumentum ad passiones_ fallacy.



Yeah, I never did that well in the formal logic class.  Like I said, hearing about elementary school kids having their heads blown off is kind of an "emotional" thing for me.  I wish I was more steely-eyed and able to see how that isn't a real problem.  You know, be more like you!

A man.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 8, 2022)

Paracetamol63 said:


> Yeah, I never did that well in the formal logic class.


It shows.


----------



## Paracetamol63 (Sep 8, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> It shows.



Thanks.

Can I get some tips from you about how to NOT care about dead kids?


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 8, 2022)

Paracetamol63 said:


> Thanks.
> Can I get some tips from you about how to NOT care about dead kids?


Why do you tb I don't care about dead kids?
Ohh....  because -I- don't stand on their bodies and bathe in their blood to push a mindless and otherwise unsellable agenda.
Your error.


----------



## Captain Caveman (Sep 8, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Concession accepted.


Lol, that crazy shit a failed engineer comes out with


----------



## Paracetamol63 (Sep 8, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Why do you tb I don't care about dead kids?
> Ohh....  because -I- don't stand on their bodies and bathe in their blood to push a mindless and otherwise unsellable agenda.
> Your error.



What a  strange position you have.  Seems like you don't care much one way or the other so long as no one touches your guns.


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 8, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> You have the 2nd Amendment, more guns, everyone is armed to the teeth, self defence fallacy etc.. Why dose the 2nd Amendment produce the opposite effect to a safe gun culture?



Americans use their legal guns 1.2 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies, murders, beatings, and stabbings.....it works when people have their guns...

You, on the other hand......your governments promised that if people gave up their guns to the government, they would be safer, their government would protect them......

This happened in the 1920s.....by 1939, the German Socialists in control of Europe had already begun the process of murdering 15 million innocent men, women and children.....sort of the exact opposite of what you guys promised....and you guys murdered those 15 million in just 6 years......and it didn't stop until Americans.....with their guns.....made the German socialists stop....

You have it all backwards.......


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 8, 2022)

Paracetamol63 said:


> Yeah, I never did that well in the formal logic class.  Like I said, hearing about elementary school kids having their heads blown off is kind of an "emotional" thing for me.  I wish I was more steely-eyed and able to see how that isn't a real problem.  You know, be more like you!
> 
> A man.




And yet the very policies you believe in....gun free zones.....cause that to happen.......


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 8, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> If your position were sound, you would not need to support it with an a_rgumentum ad passiones_ fallacy.




Is this guy that old poster 357 or whatever...under a new name?   Seems like the same stupid posts that guy used to post...


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 8, 2022)

Paracetamol63 said:


> I'm not clever.  Just scared a bit when I see someone who loves guns   demonize entire swaths of the country and just keeps on at it.
> 
> It's worrying.



You mean like biden....the democrat party President of the United States did on Thursday night?  Like him?   After his brown shirts, blm and antifa spent 7 months looting, burning and murdering Americans in our major cities?  You mean like that?   Or after the bernie sanders supporter tried to murder the entire Republican baseball team?  Like that?  Or the attempt by another democrat to murder the conservative Supreme Court Justices?  Like that?

You have a funny sense of who is actually violent and dangerous and calling half the country dangerous....


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 8, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Yes, I've heard that some cranky Americans believe freedom is down to having a gun, yet they incarcerate more of their population than any other country.




We incarcerate criminals....your Irish buddies are locking up a guy who doesn't want to use the wrong gender when he refers to a student....and you are locking up people who sing Kung Fu fighting....and veterans who tweeted the wrong thing.......and, of course, the murder of 15 million innocent men, women and children...never forget that.....you murder your victims in the millions, we lock up people who are actual criminals.


----------



## Baron Von Murderpaws (Sep 8, 2022)

*Britain is just jealous cause Canada went full fledged Communist before they did!!

Cannibals eating people alive while they sleep.
Muslims driving vans onto sidewalks full of people.
Lunatics with knives going around stabbing people.*

The people not allowed to protect themselves, by law.
The people not allowed to carry weapons, by law.
The people not allowed to SPEAK about it in public without getting arrested, by law.

This is what Communism is.  Get used to it.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 9, 2022)

Paracetamol63 said:


> I think this is the problem in the US.  We have a "gun culture" which is what I grew up in in the Midwest. Hunters and the like.  They treated guns as dangerous tools that should be handled with great care.  Nowadays too many Americans have turned that into a game of "childhood fantasy" and "Wild West Cowboy Fantasy".  We have a sick relationship with guns now.  And that's part of the problem.


That's the impression we get over here, kids that played with toy guns, now want "grown up guns" to play with.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (Sep 9, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> That's the impression we get over here, kids that played with toy guns, now want "grown up guns" to play with.



Hell, I played with so many toy guns growing up it isn't funny.  It's also how Americans think most conflict is resolved.  Our movies, our entertainment, if the character runs into a problem 99% of the time they shoot their way out.

We have a real problem here.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 9, 2022)

Paracetamol63 said:


> What a  strange position you have.


I asked a question:
Why do you think I don't care about dead kids?
Well?


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (Sep 9, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> I asked a question:
> Why do you think I don't care about dead kids?
> Well?



I think you don't care because you are unwilling to think about your own personal sacrifice of maybe having a few more restrictions on your guns.

I don't think you WANT kids dead, but you see it as a necessary price for your hobby/fetish.

Hope that helps.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 9, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> I think you don't care because you are unwilling to think about your own personal sacrifice of maybe having a few more restrictions on your guns.


Ah.
Because I do not support unnecssary and ineffective restrictions on the exercsie of the right ot keep and bear arms by the law abiding...
...I don't care about dead kids.
How does that make sense?


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (Sep 9, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Ah.
> Because I do not support unnecssary and ineffective restrictions on the exercsie of the right ot keep and beasrt rms by the law abiding...
> ...I don't care about dead kids.
> How does that make sense?



Your logic error is the predicate.  You unilateraly claim no restrictions can do anything about this.  I believe you are wrong.

And the fact that little kids keep getting their heads blown apart doesn't cause you any concern...it just happens.  Meanwhile everyone who actually STUDIES this says that the guns are part of the problem.

What would it take for you to consider restrictions on your gun rights?  How many dead children do you need to see to hit your threshold of even caring enough *to fucking to some-goddamn-thing.*

You psychopaths are ghoulish.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 9, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> Your logic error is the predicate.  You unilateraly claim no restrictions can do anything about this.


I claimed no such thing.
Try again.
Because I do not support unnecessary and ineffective restrictions on the exercise of the right ot keep and beasrt rms by the law abiding...
...I don't care about dead kids.
How does that make sense?


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (Sep 9, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> I claimed no such thing.



You unilaterally decreed my proposal to be ineffective _even though you don't know what restrictions I was referring to_.

Ergo you think all restrictions are useless.



M14 Shooter said:


> Try again.
> Because I do not support unnecessary and ineffective restrictions on the exercise of the right ot keep and beasrt rms by the law abiding...
> ...I don't care about dead kids.
> How does that make sense?



Thotz-n-prayerz, ghoul.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 9, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> You unilaterally decreed my proposal to be ineffective _even though you don't know what restrictions I was referring to_.


This is a lie.
Try again.
Because I do not support unnecessary and ineffective restrictions on the exercise of the right ot keep and beasrt rms by the law abiding...
...I don't care about dead kids.
How does that make sense?


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (Sep 9, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> This is a lie.
> Try again.
> Because I do not support unnecessary and ineffective restrictions on the exercise of the right ot keep and beasrt rms by the law abiding...
> ...I don't care about dead kids.
> How does that make sense?



LOL.  Ghoul.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 9, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> LOL.  Ghoul.


And thus,. you cannot show how your position makes sense.
As expected.
I accept your concession.
Hope this helps.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (Sep 9, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> And thus,. you cannot show how your position makes sense.
> As expected.
> I accept your concession.
> Hope this helps.



So you say.

I bet you were the kid in school who averaged about a "c" but thought he was smarter than all the teachers.  I've seen your type around.

Thotz-n-Prayerz! LOL.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 9, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> So you say.


I'm sorry you do not like the fact you cannot show how your claim makes any sense - but that's on you.


----------



## Paracetamol63 (Sep 9, 2022)

2aguy said:


> And yet the very policies you believe in....gun free zones.....cause that to happen.......



So what stops it?


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (Sep 9, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> I'm sorry you do not like the fact you cannot show how your claim makes any sense - but that's on you.



I love how the lot of you are so amazingly ignorant that you don't even see what has happened.  LOL.

It's fun playing here in the mentally-challenged forum!


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 9, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> .... you don't even see what has happened.


Oh, but I do.
1:  You made a claim
2:  You cannot demonstrate that your claim make sense.
In all of your responses, neither 1 nor 2 have changed - nor will they.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (Sep 9, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Oh, but I do.
> 1:  You made a claim
> 2:  You cannot demonstrate that your claim make sense.
> In all of your responses, neither 1 nor 2 have changed - nor will they.



If that is what you want to see.  Kudos!

(Don't worry, widdle one, sometimes other people are right and it's YOU that's the dumbass.)


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 9, 2022)

Paracetamol63 said:


> So what stops it?




That's easy....

One, secure the building, one point entrance ...... cameras at the entrance two doors to get into the building.

Two....allowing some of the staff to carry guns, after appropriate training...this alone is one of the best deterrents......mass public shooters seek out gun free zones, they are looking for as much time alone as possible before good guys with guns get there to stop them....as we saw in Uvalde.....90 minutes, 400 cops....21 dead.....vs.....the Indiana mall, a civilian with his concealed carry gun stopped the killer in 15 seconds.

Another thing I like....having seen it in local schools...a police call box.  This box is like a fire alarm, but instead of going to the fire department, it goes directly to the police station...bypassing 911, and alerting all police in the area to converge on the school..

These are just 3 quick action items to keep people from attacking schools.  And they actually work.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 9, 2022)

2aguy said:


> That's easy....
> One, secure the building, one point entrance ...... cameras at the entrance two doors to get into the building.
> Two....allowing some of the staff to carry guns, after appropriate training..


IOW:   Physical obstacles over-watched with fire.
It will not stop every attack, but, it is an infinitely better solution than a sign that says "no guns".


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 9, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> Hell, I played with so many toy guns growing up it isn't funny.  It's also how Americans think most conflict is resolved.  Our movies, our entertainment, if the character runs into a problem 99% of the time they shoot their way out.
> 
> We have a real problem here.



* It's also how Americans think most conflict is resolved.*


No...it isn't, you dumb ass.......We have over 350 million people in the country....we have over 600 million guns in private hands, over 21.5 million people can actually carry guns in public for self defense.....on average we have 10,000 gun murders each year, and 95% of the people doing the shooting are criminals with long criminal records of crime and violence shooting other criminals......they are not normal Americans or normal American gun owners......

In fact, most of the shooters who shoot other criminals have been captured by the police, and then released by democrat party prosecutors, judges and politicians...

So now.....Americans don't think this is how conflict is resolved...


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (Sep 9, 2022)

2aguy said:


> That's easy....
> 
> One, secure the building, one point entrance ...... cameras at the entrance two doors to get into the building.
> 
> ...



And the cool thing about your solutions is: it puts the onus on just plain folks who don't care about guns at all!  It arms teachers and turns schools into armed encampments.  JUST LIKE YOUR CHILDHOOD FANTASY OF FORT APACHE!

Big man!  Wants to play with guns!  Fun!  Oops, guns are dangerous!  *LET'S PUT MORE GUNS IN PLACES!*

Think for a moment how pathological and SICK you have to be to turn everyday life into a shooting gallery.

Your answer is always MORE GUNS.

Sorry, bucky, but your childhood fantasies are just that.  Fantasies.


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 9, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> Your logic error is the predicate.  You unilateraly claim no restrictions can do anything about this.  I believe you are wrong.
> 
> And the fact that little kids keep getting their heads blown apart doesn't cause you any concern...it just happens.  Meanwhile everyone who actually STUDIES this says that the guns are part of the problem.
> 
> ...




No...gun grabbers who want to take guns away from people say guns are the problem....while completely ignoring the actual problem...the democrat party attacking the police, and the democrat party releasing violent, repeat gun offenders over and over again......

We don't need any more restrictions on gun rights, you doofus....we need restrictions on criminals, and that is started by voting out the democrats who attack the police, and then release the most violent criminals over and over again...


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 9, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> And the cool thing about your solutions is: it puts the onus on just plain folks who don't care about guns at all!  It arms teachers and turns schools into armed encampments.  JUST LIKE YOUR CHILDHOOD FANTASY OF FORT APACHE!
> 
> Big man!  Wants to play with guns!  Fun!  Oops, guns are dangerous!  *LET'S PUT MORE GUNS IN PLACES!*
> 
> ...




You really are a fucking moron.....without any common sense, rational thought, or understanding of human nature, human behavior or human history.....

The Jewish Schools in Europe all have armed Security..........all of the schools in Israel have armed security....because they actually want to keep people from attacking them...

You want dead kids......dead kids are like Christmas presents under your gun control tree...with dead kids, you can stampede uninformed Americans into giving you more power...

You are vile and disgusting.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 9, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> And the cool thing about your solutions is: it puts the onus on just plain folks who don't care about guns at all!


The onus is always on plain folks - you are your own first responder.
You can choose to not take that responsbility, but then you choose to put your life in the hands of others.


Cardinal Carminative said:


> It arms teachers and turns schools into armed encampments.


You're just unhappy because you know it will work better than a "No guns" sign.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 9, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> If that is what you want to see.


Tell me how I am wrong.
Oh.  You can't.  Because you know I am right.
Because you know you cannot demonstrate that your claim made sense.


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 9, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> And the cool thing about your solutions is: it puts the onus on just plain folks who don't care about guns at all!  It arms teachers and turns schools into armed encampments.  JUST LIKE YOUR CHILDHOOD FANTASY OF FORT APACHE!
> 
> Big man!  Wants to play with guns!  Fun!  Oops, guns are dangerous!  *LET'S PUT MORE GUNS IN PLACES!*
> 
> ...




Hey...dipshit....

The school in Uvalde relied on the police.......400 cops let the killer murder children and teachers for 90 minutes.......so sell your dumb crap to biden voters...the only people stupid enough to believe what you are selling...

Again, my 3 points protect schools.......you have nothing....


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 9, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Again, my 3 points protect schools.......you have nothing....


They aren't interested in actual solutions, only unnecessary and ineffective restrictions on the exercise of the right to keep and bear arms by the law abiding.


----------



## Captain Caveman (Sep 9, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Americans use their legal guns 1.2 million times a year to stop rapes, robberies, murders, beatings, and stabbings.....it works when people have their guns...
> 
> You, on the other hand......your governments promised that if people gave up their guns to the government, they would be safer, their government would protect them......
> 
> ...


We've been over this before, the utter vast majority of women do not use guns against rape, yet there's nothing between your ears to keep this info in.

You need to speak to Germany if you have concerns.


----------



## Captain Caveman (Sep 9, 2022)

2aguy said:


> We incarcerate criminals....your Irish buddies are locking up a guy who doesn't want to use the wrong gender when he refers to a student....and you are locking up people who sing Kung Fu fighting....and veterans who tweeted the wrong thing.......and, of course, the murder of 15 million innocent men, women and children...never forget that.....you murder your victims in the millions, we lock up people who are actual criminals.


When a dumbass says, "Americans are free", it means they swallowed the American Marketing Slogan without putting brain in gear.


----------



## Leo123 (Sep 9, 2022)

Donald H said:


> F. None of the above.
> 
> F. None of the above.
> 
> G. Guns are now necessary in all locations as a matter of survival in murica. ya'all.


F - Lie

G - Lie


----------



## flan327 (Sep 9, 2022)

marvin martian said:


> This is the way they want it. Defenseless people are easier to control.


Grow up

How many MASSACRES at schools?

America vs Britain

I’ll wait


----------



## flan327 (Sep 9, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> When a dumbass says, "Americans are free", it means they swallowed the American Marketing Slogan without putting brain in gear.


You ARE proud of being a CAVEMAN


----------



## Peace (Sep 9, 2022)

Donald H said:


> Could you just get back to us after the guvmunt has confiscated all your guns?


You do know America will never get rid of it second amendment, so you need to worry about mass stabbing in Canada 🍁.


----------



## Paracetamol63 (Sep 9, 2022)

2aguy said:


> That's easy....
> 
> One, secure the building, one point entrance ...... cameras at the entrance two doors to get into the building.
> 
> ...



This is, in my area, called an "engineering fix".  It doesn't address the root problem but it allows you to work with the system as is without changing anything.  It's kludgy at best, an abomination at worst.

Turning our schools into free-fire zones and arming the teachers doesn't seem rational to me.  And the recent suggestion that schools only have ONE DOOR?  At some point you have to balance out the danger of children being trapped in a building on fire with children being kept safe from murderous gun nuts.

I think the actual approach should include some of the root causes as well.  Improved mental healthcare and far more restrictions on access to guns.


----------



## Paracetamol63 (Sep 9, 2022)

flan327 said:


> Grow up
> 
> How many MASSACRES at schools?
> 
> ...



Likely you won't get any answers.  Anyone who questions the wisdom of unfettered gun access in America knows that America loves to see dead school kids, but the folks who love the guns will try to ignore the pile of bodies and point to literally everything else on the planet as a problem.  Just NOT GUNS.

We are stuck.


----------



## flan327 (Sep 9, 2022)

Peace said:


> You do know America will never get rid of it second amendment, so you need to worry about mass stabbing in Canada 🍁.


I do


----------



## Paracetamol63 (Sep 9, 2022)

2aguy said:


> We incarcerate criminals



There's  a reason the 3Strikes Laws are failing.  They tend to lock up "criminals" by criminalizing everything.  When you wind up with a black guy in St. Louis getting life for holding a  joint because he had 2 other strikes on his record you have to wonder what our criminal justice system is actually doing.

Meanwhile some guy in FLorida was just found in full "Rosenberg STyle" with a ton of nuclear state secrets and he's not in jail at this second!



2aguy said:


> ....your Irish buddies are locking up a guy who doesn't want to use the wrong gender when he refers to a student....and you are locking up people who sing Kung Fu fighting....and veterans who tweeted the wrong thing.......and, of course, the murder of 15 million innocent men, women and children...never forget that.....you murder your victims in the millions, we lock up people who are actual criminals.



LOL.  Sorry, but America locks up its fair share of silly non-criminal things.  If you deny this, you haven't been listening to the discussions around America's penal system.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (Sep 9, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Hey...dipshit....
> 
> The school in Uvalde relied on the police.



And in your twisted fantasy world they'd have to rely on TEACHERS.

TEACHERS!  People who go to school to learn hot to teach little kids how add and subtract.  THESE ARE NOT BATTLE HARDENED KILLERS, Dipshit.



2aguy said:


> Again, my 3 points protect schools.......you have nothing....



Your three points are an abomination.  You should be ashamed of being such a psychopath. I reject your worldview of guns and barbed wire and thick giant walls.

YOU wanna live in a prison?  YOU LIVE IN A PRISON.  Go ahead, get out of your guns and do something so you wind up in prison where you will be SAFE!

Man, what the fuck is WRONG with you people?????


----------



## flan327 (Sep 9, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> And in your twisted fantasy world they'd have to rely on TEACHERS.
> 
> TEACHERS!  People who go to school to learn hot to teach little kids how add and subtract.  THESE ARE NOT BATTLE HARDENED KILLERS, Dipshit.
> 
> ...


What is WRONG with you?


----------



## Peace (Sep 9, 2022)

flan327 said:


> I do


You do what?

Worry about Mass Stabbings or think the U.S. will get rid of the second amendment?

If the Second Amendment, well you lack the votes in the Senate and at the States, so good luck with that.


----------



## flan327 (Sep 9, 2022)

flan327 said:


> What is WRONG with you?


I taught in an alternative high school 

Soft lockdown?
Yup
Hard lockdown?
Yup

Was I ever scared?
Nope


----------



## flan327 (Sep 9, 2022)

Peace said:


> You do what?
> 
> Worry about Mass Stabbings or think the U.S. will get rid of the second amendment?
> 
> If the Second Amendment, well you lack the votes in the Senate and at the States, so good luck with that.


I can’t understand what you are saying 
Try again


----------



## Peace (Sep 9, 2022)

flan327 said:


> I can’t understand what you are saying
> Try again


You understood it, so play your game with someone else troll 🧌.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (Sep 9, 2022)

flan327 said:


> What is WRONG with you?



You mean because I think it's INCREDIBLY stupid to arm teachers?  Something is wrong with me?

LOL.

You are one to talk.  Are you one of those gun lovers who doesn't mind seeing dead kids?


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Sep 9, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Britain doesn't have the 2nd Amendment


It wouldn’t make any difference is it did.

“…people need to know that it is a fallacy to believe that the everyday gun owner can be expected to make all the right choices in a dangerous, fast-moving situation like a mass shooting with high-powered weapons.”









						The 'good guy with a gun' myth: Column
					

Expecting untrained civilians to shoot down terrorists is recipe for more dead innocents.



					www.usatoday.com


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 9, 2022)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> It wouldn’t make any difference is it did.
> 
> “…people need to know that it is a fallacy to believe that the everyday gun owner can be expected to make all the right choices in a dangerous, fast-moving situation like a mass shooting with high-powered weapons.”
> 
> ...




You know, Americans use their legal guns 1.2 million times a year to stop violent criminals....they stop rapes, robberies, murders, beatings and stabbings...every single day.....

The same week that Uvalde happened....400 police officers stood outside the doors of that classroom for 90 minutes as the killer murdered Teachers and students....90 fucking minutes...

In West Virginia, a woman....a civilian....with her personal concealed handgun stopped an attacker who also had an AR-15 rifle as he attacked a crowd of people.......stopping him with her gun...

You lying asshole.....

Shortly after that, in an Indiana mall....another civilian, with his personal, concealed carry pistol, stopped another mass public shooter, also armed with an AR-15 rifle, and he stopped him in 15 seconds after the attacker opened fire....

You are a liar.......you are vile..........


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 10, 2022)

2aguy said:


> You mean like biden....the democrat party President of the United States did on Thursday night?  Like him?   After his brown shirts, blm and antifa spent 7 months looting, burning and murdering Americans in our major cities?  You mean like that?   Or after the bernie sanders supporter tried to murder the entire Republican baseball team?  Like that?  Or the attempt by another democrat to murder the conservative Supreme Court Justices?  Like that?
> 
> You have a funny sense of who is actually violent and dangerous and calling half the country dangerous....


Oh, but your Right wing are pure as the driven snow, not.








						A Dark and Constant Rage: 25 Years of Right-Wing Terrorism in the United States
					

Over the past decade, domestic extremists of all kinds have killed at least 372 people in the U.S. Of those deaths, approximately 74% were at the hands of right-wing extremists, about 24% of the victims were killed by domestic Islamic extremists, and the remainder were killed by left-wing...




					www.adl.org


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 10, 2022)

2aguy said:


> You know, Americans use their legal guns 1.2 million times a year to stop violent criminals....they stop rapes, robberies, murders, beatings and stabbings...every single day.....


No they don't. No-one knows how many of these gun uses are real or fantasy attempts at publicity. The reality is that the true figure could be 1/10 of your number or x10 of your number. Without recording each incident objectively, your constant repetition of this figure is complete bullshit.


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 10, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Oh, but your Right wing are pure as the driven snow, not.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, bullshit.  The democrats and their FBI are now pushing an agenda against republicans, and calling anything they can Right Wing violence…… but being a foreigner you won’t understand that


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 10, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> No they don't. No-one knows how many of these gun uses are real or fantasy attempts at publicity. The reality is that the true figure could be 1/10 of your number or x10 of your number. Without recording each incident objectively, your constant repetition of this figure is complete bullshit.



18 different studies on the topic, say you are wrong.   Two from the government…. One from the CDC and the other from the Department of Justice..


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 10, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Yeah, bullshit.  The democrats and their FBI are now pushing an agenda against republicans, and calling anything they can Right Wing violence…… but being a foreigner you won’t understand that


Yeah, right, whatever. Poor Trumpists, no longer protected by the great orange one, blah, blah.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 10, 2022)

2aguy said:


> 18 different studies on the topic, say you are wrong.   Two from the government…. One from the CDC and the other from the Department of Justice..


No they don't. All these "studies" are based on small scale telephone or questionnaire surveys involving a few states, and then extrapolated to give a best guess at best. Pseudoscience at it's worst, an exercise in statistics at it's best. Which study states your 2.1 million figure, by the way, I forget?


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 10, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> No they don't. All these "studies" are based on small scale telephone or questionnaire surveys involving a few states, and then extrapolated to give a best guess at best. Pseudoscience at it's worst, an exercise in statistics at it's best. Which study states your 2.1 million figure, by the way, I forget?




over 5,000 in the sample sizes is not small........and both private and government researchers did this research showing these numbers....professional researchers, most of whom were rabidly anti-gun, trying to prove what you think you know...

Here........

A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....

The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense 

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

*Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)

DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)

Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)*


2021 national firearm survey, Prof. William English, PhD. designed by Deborah Azrael of Harvard T. Chan School of public policy, and  Mathew Miller, Northeastern university.......1.67 million defensive uses annually.

CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million  averaged over  those years.( no cops, no military)

*Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million*

--------------------


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)

Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)

Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)

Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)

Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."

(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])

Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. _Journal of Quantitative Criminology_, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer


-------------------------------------------

Ohio...1982...771,043

Gallup...1991...777,152

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..

*2021 national firearms survey..*

The survey was designed by Deborah Azrael of the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, and Matthew Miller of Northeastern University,
----
The survey further finds that approximately a third of gun owners (31.1%) have used a firearm to defend themselves or their property, often on more than one occasion, and it estimates that guns are used defensively by firearms owners in approximately 1.67 million incidents per year. Handguns are the most common firearm employed for self-defense (used in 65.9% of defensive incidents), and in most defensive incidents (81.9%) no shot was fired. Approximately a quarter (25.2%) of defensive incidents occurred within the gun owner's home, and approximately half (53.9%) occurred outside their home, but on their property. About one out of ten (9.1%) defensive gun uses occurred in public, and about one out of twenty (4.8%) occurred at work.
2021 National Firearms Survey


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 11, 2022)

2aguy said:


> over 5,000 in the sample sizes is not small


Seriously, out of an *estimated* gun owning population of 82 million?
Estimated, because no-one knows how many Americans own how many guns. Every "survey/study" you cite is basically a glorified opinion poll, but you keep regurgitating your preferred fantasy figure of 1.2 million DGUs every year as fact.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 11, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> Hell, I played with so many toy guns growing up it isn't funny.  It's also how Americans think most conflict is resolved.  Our movies, our entertainment, if the character runs into a problem 99% of the time they shoot their way out.
> 
> We have a real problem here.


Sadly you do. We started down your road until the Dunblane massacre in 1966. That was our wake up call and so far it has worked, unlike in the US, where children seem to be massacred on a regular basis.


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 11, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Seriously, out of an *estimated* gun owning population of 82 million?
> Estimated, because no-one knows how many Americans own how many guns. Every "survey/study" you cite is basically a glorified opinion poll, but you keep regurgitating your preferred fantasy figure of 1.2 million DGUs every year as fact.




No...I just posted 18 different studies.....I use the 1.2 number because it comes directly from the Centers for Disease Control research...but it is just one of 18..........

And yes, over 5,000 is a huge sample size for research of this type.....you dumb ass....


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 11, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Sadly you do. We started down your road until the Dunblane massacre in 1966. That was our wake up call and so far it has worked, unlike in the US, where children seem to be massacred on a regular basis.




How has it worked?  You guys had one mass public shooting every 10 years before you banned guns....since you banned guns you have had about 1 mass public shooting every 10 years, the last one last year in Plymouth....5 people murdered.....

Before you banned guns you had a low gun murder rate......and now your gun crime rate is going up, and your gun murder rate has stayed the same...

In science, if you remove a variable and nothing changes, that variable had nothing to do with the cause and effect you are looking for..........


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (Sep 11, 2022)

2aguy said:


> No...I just posted 18 different studies.....I use the 1.2 number because it comes directly from the Centers for Disease Control research...but it is just one of 18..........
> 
> And yes, over 5,000 is a huge sample size for research of this type.....you dumb ass....



PLEASE I'm begging you: LEARN HOW TO USE PUNCTUATION!

Reading your posts is like looking at the scrawl of some brain damaged little kid!  What is your malfunction?  Are you really so stupid you can't write like an adult?

Moron.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Sep 11, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> You mean because I think it's INCREDIBLY stupid to arm teachers?  Something is wrong with me?
> 
> LOL.
> 
> You are one to talk.  Are you one of those gun lovers who doesn't mind seeing dead kids?


It is incredibly stupid to arm teachers – it’s reckless and irresponsible.

As noted in post 149, teachers lack the training and experience to offer safe, effective self-defense in the chaotic environment of an active shooting incident.

Armed teachers would result in teachers shooting and killing students and other teachers, not the intruder.


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 11, 2022)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> It is incredibly stupid to arm teachers – it’s reckless and irresponsible.
> 
> As noted in post 149, teachers lack the training and experience to offer safe, effective self-defense in the chaotic environment of an active shooting incident.
> 
> Armed teachers would result in teachers shooting and killing students and other teachers, not the intruder.




And yet 18 states already do this without a problem...so your irrational fears are, of course, unfounded....which is typical of any of the issues revolving around guns and you anti-gun fanatics...

*18 states currently have teachers and staff who can carry permitted concealed handguns, though the rules vary considerably across the states.*



			One moment, please...


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 11, 2022)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> It is incredibly stupid to arm teachers – it’s reckless and irresponsible.
> 
> As noted in post 149, teachers lack the training and experience to offer safe, effective self-defense in the chaotic environment of an active shooting incident.
> 
> Armed teachers would result in teachers shooting and killing students and other teachers, not the intruder.




You can post that with the knowledge of Uvalde....where 400 police officers sat outside of a classroom for 90 minutes while a nut murdered 21 teachers and students........

At the same time, in West Virginia, a civilian woman, with her concealed handgun, stopped another mass public shooter, who was also armed with an AR-15 rifle....

At the same time, that same week we had another mass public shooter at an Indiana mall, and a civilian, with their concealed carry pistol, shot and killed the attacker 15 seconds after he began shooting people...and that shooter also had an AR-15 rifle...

Nothing you post about guns is even remotely close to being accurate or based in the reality of civilian gun ownership....


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 11, 2022)

2aguy said:


> I use the 1.2 number because it comes directly from the Centers for Disease Control research


Really? I must have missed that, care to provide a *direct* link to the actual CDC report where it actually states this number?


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 11, 2022)

2aguy said:


> And yes, over 5,000 is a huge sample size for research of this type.....you dumb ass....


Blah, blah, did you know that using the same methodology as these studies, and using their extrapolations, 3 million Americans are abducted by aliens every year!


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (Sep 11, 2022)

2aguy said:


> You can post that with the knowledge of Uvalde....where 400 police officers sat outside of a classroom for 90 minutes while a nut murdered 21 teachers and students........



I think Uvalde showed us what most ammosexuals would do when the bullets start flying.  Hide and cower.

I suspect most of you ammosexuals are just paper tigers.  You fantasize about being a big hero.  But you are too scared of everyone and everything.

All you do is fantasize about killing everyone that scares you with your mighty gun.  Because you are a little pussy.

Try dealing with the world like an adult and NOT go for your guns like you are John Wayne.  You aren't.  You're probably going to be more of a danger in a shooting situation than you will be a help.









2aguy said:


> At the same time, in West Virginia, a civilian woman, with her concealed handgun, stopped another mass public shooter, who was also armed with an AR-15 rifle....



Maybe you should get a sex change operation.  Or keep flogging this one instance like it's a dead horse.



2aguy said:


> Nothing you post about guns is even remotely close to being accurate or based in the reality of civilian gun ownership....



Like the shit you pedal is any better.


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 11, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> I think Uvalde showed us what most ammosexuals would do when the bullets start flying.  Hide and cower.
> 
> I suspect most of you ammosexuals are just paper tigers.  You fantasize about being a big hero.  But you are too scared of everyone and everything.
> 
> ...




Moron......400 trained police officers......waited 90 minutes...

In the Indiana mall, the guy with his own gun, a civilian with no police or military training, stopped a mass public shooter who was armed with  an AR-15 rifle, like the Uvalde shooter, in 15 seconds after the attacker started shooting....

Dittos the woman in West Virginia who also used her concealed carry pistol to stop another mass public shooter armed with an AR-15 rifle...both her and the guy in Indiana within two weeks of the Uvalde attack....

Again, you know so little about so little and you know it with so much conviction it is really sad....


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (Sep 11, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Moron......400 trained police officers......waited 90 minutes...



Just like you would, I suspect.  I assume you are a big talker too.



2aguy said:


> Again, you know so little about so little and you know it with so much conviction it is really sad....



I know people reasonably well.  I know your type. Big man talker.  Usually turns into a pussy or an incompetent when the going gets tough.

Don't be hard on yourself, though.  It's pretty common.  It's just funnier with you guys and your gun hobby.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (Sep 11, 2022)

2aguy said:


> You can post that with the knowledge of Uvalde....where 400 police officers sat outside of a classroom for 90 minutes while a nut murdered 21 teachers and students........
> 
> At the same time, in West Virginia, a civilian woman, with her concealed handgun, stopped another mass public shooter, who was also armed with an AR-15 rifle....
> 
> ...



Seriously, dude, do you NOT know what an actual period or comma are?  You must really be special needs.

You shouldn't have a gun if you couldn't make it through elementary school.


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 11, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Really? I must have missed that, care to provide a *direct* link to the actual CDC report where it actually states this number?




I notice you want to focus on the CDC because they buried their data.....while you do your best to ignore the other 17 studies on the same topic....but here is all of the information on the Centers for Disease Control research, their data that they hid when they realized it backed up and supported the findings of Kleck's work......something they didn't want to do, so they buried their research...

SSRN Electronic Library



Abstract​In 1996, 1997, and 1998, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) conducted large-scale surveys asking about defensive gun use (DGU) in four to seven states. Analysis of the raw data allows the estimation of the prevalence of DGU for those areas. Data pertaining to the same sets of states from the 1993 National Self-Defense Survey (Kleck and Gertz 1995) allow these results to be extrapolated to the U.S. as a whole. CDC’s survey data confirm previous high estimates of DGU prevalence, disconfirm estimates derived from the National Crime Victimization Survey, and indicate that defensive uses of guns by crime victims are far more common than offensive uses by criminals. CDC has never reported these results.

=========



Reason article on the revised paper..



in direct response to queries from _Reason,_ who first directly notified Kleck of his error, he worked through and has since issued a revised version of the paper, published as was the original as a working paper on the Social Science Research Network. In the new version, Kleck re-analyzes the BRFSS survey data accurately as limited to a small number of states, and ultimately concludes, when their surveys are analyzed in conjunction with his NSDS, that their surveys indicate likely over 1 million defensive uses of guns (DGUs) a year nationally, compared to the over 2 million of his own NSDS.

Here's how Kleck got to that new conclusion. The BRFSS, as Kleck describes it in his paper, "are high-quality telephone surveys of very large probability samples of U.S. adults…even just the subset of four to seven state surveys that asked about DGU in 1996-1998 interviewed 3,197-4,500 adults, depending on the year. This is more people than were asked about this topic in any other surveys, other than the National Self-Defense Survey conducted in 1993 by Kleck and Gertz (1995), who asked DGU questions of 4,977 people." The BRFSS asked about defensive uses of guns in seven states in 1996, seven in 1997, and four in 1998.

Kleck judged the "wording of the DGU question in the BRFSS surveys" as "also excellent, avoiding many problems with the wording that afflicted the DGU questions used in other surveys."

The BRFSS results were designed to exclude "uses by military, police and others with firearm-related jobs" and "uses against animals." The survey was designed to garner "yes" answers as long as a gun was used in presumed self-defense in any location (not just the home), whether or not the gun was actually fired (as, per Kleck's survey, around 3/4 of the time one needn't fire the gun to have found it useful in deterring an intruder or attacker).



A Second Look at a Controversial Study About Defensive Gun Use



-------



Original version before he went back to revise it...

The actual paper by Kleck revealing the CDC hiding data..



SSRN Electronic Library

The timing of CDC’s addition of a DGU question to the BRFSS is of some interest. Prior to 1996, the BRFSS had never included a question about DGU. Kleck and Gertz (1995) conducted their survey in February through April 1993, presented their estimate that there were over 2 million DGUs in 1992 at the annual meetings of the American Society of Criminology in November 1994, and published it in the Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology in the Fall of 1995. CDC added a DGU question to the BRFSS the very first year they could do so after that 1995 publication, in the 1996 edition. CDC was not the only federal agency during the Clinton administration to field a survey addressing the prevalence of DGU at that particular time. The National Institute of Justice (NIJ) financed a national survey devoting even more detailed attention to estimating DGU prevalence, which was fielded in November and December 1994, just months after preliminary results of the 1993 Kleck/Gertz survey became known. Neither CDC nor NIJ had ever financed research into DGU before 1996. Perhaps there was just “something in the air” that motivated the two agencies to suddenly decide in 1994 to address the topic. Another interpretation, however, is that fielding of the surveys was triggered by the Kleck/Gertz findings that DGU was common, and that these agencies hoped to obtain lower DGU prevalence estimates than those obtained by Kleck/Gertz. Low estimates would have implied fewer beneficial uses of firearms, results that would have been far more congenial to the strongly pro-control positions of the Clinton administration.


CDC, in Surveys It Never Bothered Making Public, Provides More Evidence That Plenty of Americans Innocently Defend Themselves with Guns



Kleck's new paper—"What Do CDC's Surveys Say About the Frequency of Defensive Gun Uses?"—finds that the agency had asked about DGUs in its Behavioral Risk Factor Surveillance System in 1996, 1997, and 1998.

Those polls, Kleck writes,



> are high-quality telephone surveys of enormous probability samples of U.S. adults, asking about a wide range of health-related topics. Those that addressed DGU asked more people about this topic than any other surveys conducted before or since. For example, the 1996 survey asked the DGU question of 5,484 people. The next-largest number questioned about DGU was 4,977 by Kleck and Gertz (1995), and sample sizes were much smaller in all the rest of surveys on the topic (Kleck 2001).


Kleck was impressed with how well the survey worded its question: "During the last 12 months, have you confronted another person with a firearm, even if you did not fire it, to protect yourself, your property, or someone else?" Respondents were told to leave out incidents from occupations, like policing, where using firearms is part of the job. Kleck is impressed with how the question excludes animals but includes DGUs outside the home as well as within it.

Kleck is less impressed with the fact that the question was only asked of people who admitted to owning guns in their home earlier in the survey, and that they asked no follow-up questions regarding the specific nature of the DGU incident.

From Kleck's own surveys, he found that only 79 percent of those who reported a DGU "had also reported a gun in their household at the time of the interview," so he thinks whatever numbers the CDC found need to be revised upward to account for that. (Kleck speculates that CDC showed a sudden interest in the question of DGUs starting in 1996 because Kleck's own famous/notorious survey had been published in 1995.)

At any rate, Kleck downloaded the datasets for those three years and found that the "weighted percent who reported a DGU...was 1.3% in 1996, 0.9% in 1997, 1.0% in 1998, and 1.07% in all three surveys combined."





Kleck figures if you do the adjustment upward he thinks necessary for those who had DGU incidents without personally owning a gun in the home at the time of the survey, and then the adjustment downward he thinks necessary because CDC didn't do detailed follow-ups to confirm the nature of the incident, you get 1.24 percent, a close match to his own 1.326 percent figure.

He concludes that the small difference between his estimate and the CDC's "can be attributed to declining rates of violent crime, which accounts for most DGUs. With fewer occasions for self-defense in the form of violent victimizations, one would expect fewer DGUs."

Kleck further details how much these CDC surveys confirmed his own controversial work:



> *The final adjusted prevalence of 1.24% therefore implies that in an average year during 1996–1998, 2.46 million U.S. adults used a gun for self-defense. *
> 
> This estimate, based on an enormous sample of 12,870 cases (unweighted) in a nationally representative sample, strongly confirms the 2.5 million past-12-months estimate obtained Kleck and Gertz (1995)....CDC's results, then, imply that guns were used defensively by victims about 3.6 times as often as they were used offensively by criminals.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 11, 2022)

2aguy said:


> You guys had one mass public shooting every 10 years before you banned guns...


No we didn't. We had 1 in 1987, 1 in 1996 which brought in the handgun ban, and no mass shootings involving handguns since. The other mass shootings were committed using rifles and or shotguns, which have not been banned in the UK.


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 11, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> No we didn't. We had 1 in 1987, 1 in 1996 which brought in the handgun ban, and no mass shootings involving handguns since. The other mass shootings were committed using rifles and or shotguns, which have not been banned in the UK.




Handguns?   Moron, you had 1 mass public shooting every 10 years.......it doesn't matter what gun was used, you lying dumb ass....

And criminals are getting all the handguns they want, as your police admit......


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 11, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> No we didn't. We had 1 in 1987, 1 in 1996 which brought in the handgun ban, and no mass shootings involving handguns since. The other mass shootings were committed using rifles and or shotguns, which have not been banned in the UK.




And here ......

Gun offences had been increasing since roughly 2015 across England and Wales, according to figures from the Office of National Statistics. But then came the pandemic.

Are gun crimes on the rise again?​Dr Robert Hesketh, from the School of Justice Studies at Liverpool John Moores University, thinks the incidents will increase because of the cost of living crisis. 
"People are getting desperate and desperate times call for desperate measures," he said.

*Dr Hesketh disagreed with senior police officers, who say it is hard for a criminal to buy a gun in Britain.

The academic instead suggested in Liverpool a cheap firearm can be obtained for as little as £150 with a bit of asking around.*

Gun crime is closely linked with drug dealing. At the top of the criminal tree drug gangs arrange imports to sell in the UK.
The retail arm of the market has become dominated by a relatively new business model.
County lines gangs, using dedicated mobile phones for customers to make orders, shift drugs around the country and have been blamed for increasing the risk of violence involving guns and knives.
Liverpool is an important part of the UK's drug gang infrastructure.









						Liverpool shootings: Are UK gun crimes on the rise again?
					

There have been seven killings in Liverpool and London since July, with shootings rising in Merseyside.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 11, 2022)

2aguy said:


> I notice you want to focus on the CDC because they buried their data.....


No, I want you to provide a direct link to where the CDC stated that there are 1.2 million DGUs in the USA annually, that is what you keep insisting is the source of the figure you keep on regurgitating, so once again, please provide the actual link to the CDC quoting that number.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 11, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Moron, you had 1 mass public shooting every 10 years..


Prove it.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 11, 2022)

2aguy said:


> And here ......
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh, we're back to counting criminals using illegal handguns now. None of the above was a mass shooting, but targeted assassination attempts by drug gangs against rival drug gang members.


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 11, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Oh, we're back to counting criminals using illegal handguns now. None of the above was a mass shooting, but targeted assassination attempts by drug gangs against rival drug gang members.




Wrong, again.....you are trying to confuse the issue, again.......the mass public shootings in Britain were nuts shooting strangers, just like here in the U.S.......you have them once every 10 years or so for now......you had them once every 10 years or so back when you had handguns...

You take the guns away, and you have the same number of mass public shootings....so guns are not driving mass public shootings in Britain...........

Meanwhile, in the U.S.....with over 350 million Americans, we had 6 mass public shootings last year.....6 people out of over 350 million........with all of our guns in private hands......

total killed by mass public shooters in 2021?  43

Number of people killed by deer every year.....200

Number of people killed by ladders every year....300

Number of people killed by lawn mowers every year, between 90-100

Meanwhile, Americans, on average, use their legal guns to stop violent criminal 1.2 million times a year.......according to the Centers for Disease Control....1.5 million according to the Department of Justice......or 2.5 million according to Gary Kleck's Research.....just 3 out of 18 studies on the topic.....

Rapes, robberies, murders, beatings and stabbings stopped by armed civilians in America....


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 11, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Prove it.




Here...






						Category:Mass shootings in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 11, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Oh, we're back to counting criminals using illegal handguns now. None of the above was a mass shooting, but targeted assassination attempts by drug gangs against rival drug gang members.




And now to the other problem in Britain...increasing gun crime.....

29 out of 43 English and Welsh police forces have seen increases in gun crime during that same period. 

Eight of those forces reported a doubling of the number of offences involving firearms, and one force saw levels six times higher than a decade ago.
---------
County lines​Peter Squires, professor of criminology at the University of Brighton, told The Guardian that so-called “county lines” – a form of criminal exploitation where urban gangs persuade young people to take drugs to rural areas of the country – are probably behind the rise in gun crime in places such as Sussex, Kent and Cheshire. 
-----
Gun smuggling​The prevalence of firearm offences is also partially to do with gun smuggling, experts say. Firearms can now be hired for as little as £100 around the UK and can be acquired in “less than a day”, reported the i news site’s investigations correspondent Dean Kirby.

*According to Dr Robert Hesketh, a criminology expert at Liverpool John Moores University, it is “relatively easy” to get hold of a firearm in many cities.*

*“A MAC-10 will cost about £3,000, an MP5 £3,000,” Hesketh said. “These are automatic weapons. Another gun doing the rounds a few years ago and possibly now was a Desert Eagle, for about £500. It isn’t hard, put it that way.”*

*There is also an option to rent a weapon – with criminals borrowing firearms for short periods. “You can get one possibly for £100 to £150 if you know the right people,” Hesketh said.
---
While it is working to cut off supplies to the UK, the National Crime Agency has seen a “gradual increase” in the use of fully automatic weapons.*

*Some of the weapons used are deactivated or blank-firing devices, which are being bought in eastern Europe, where they are legal and unrestricted. They are then illegally reactivated by criminals before being transported to the UK, Kirby said. 

Guns can also be bought on the dark web, and stolen, lawfully bought guns have also ended up being used in shootings. On the messaging app Telegram The Sunday Times found firearms advertised for sale from £400.*

*In 2019/20, the National Crime Agency seized 552 illegal firearms in the UK and abroad. The UK Border Force, meanwhile, picked up 2,600 lethal and non-lethal firearms in the year to September 2020.*











						Why is gun crime on the rise? | The Week UK
					

Poverty, smuggling and ‘county lines’ blamed for increase in firearms offences across England and Wales



					www.theweek.co.uk


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 11, 2022)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> It is incredibly stupid to arm teachers – it’s reckless and irresponsible.
> 
> As noted in post 149, teachers lack the training and experience to offer safe, effective self-defense in the chaotic environment of an active shooting incident.
> 
> Armed teachers would result in teachers shooting and killing students and other teachers, not the intruder.




You mean, except for this guy....right?

*As Hunt and other partiers had a bite to eat in the kitchen, the suspect pulled out a gun and began firing on the crowd, sending everyone fleeing, Mendez recounted. *
*
Mendez was shot in the head in front of his wife, who rushed to his side and believed he was dead due to the amount of blood covering his face. She then grabbed their two daughters and put them into a room deeper in the house, barricading them and other children inside. 

"She barricaded the door with the dresser. There were three other children in there, not including my two daughters. A total of five kids. She … throws them in the closet, throws clothes over them. Tells them, ‘Be quiet. Do not make a peep if you hear loud noises in this room,’" Mendez said of his wife's actions. 

As Hunt continued his alleged rampage, two other women began fighting back against the suspect and screamed for Mendez, knowing he had a concealed carry weapon, Mendez said. 

"By the glory of God or the adrenaline and just everything, just the will to live and the will to protect my family, I was able to hear those pleas, those yells for help. I heard my name. And I was able to get up," he said. 

He was able to pull out his firearm and shoot the suspect four times in the chest. 
*
*"Detectives have determined the individual who shot Jason, and others who fought against Jason, were acting in self-defense and defense of other innocent parties," Sgt. Tommy Hale said in a press release days after the incident, KTAR reported at the time. *









						Arizona man shot in the head at family party credits his concealed carry for saving lives: ‘would have died’
					

Arizona man Raul Mendez is speaking out after he thwarted a shooter at a Fourth of July party with his concealed carry despite being shot in the head and losing his left eye.




					www.foxnews.com


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 11, 2022)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> It is incredibly stupid to arm teachers – it’s reckless and irresponsible.
> 
> As noted in post 149, teachers lack the training and experience to offer safe, effective self-defense in the chaotic environment of an active shooting incident.
> 
> Armed teachers would result in teachers shooting and killing students and other teachers, not the intruder.




Here....a collection of just such stories...normal Americans stopping mass public shooter with their privately owned guns...often concealed carry guns....










						Arizona man shot in the head at family party credits his concealed carry for saving lives: ‘would have died’
					

Arizona man Raul Mendez is speaking out after he thwarted a shooter at a Fourth of July party with his concealed carry despite being shot in the head and losing his left eye.




					www.foxnews.com
				






======



Indiana mall shooting...











						What we know about the armed bystander who killed the shooter at an Indiana mall | CNN
					

Dressed in shorts and a T-shirt, Elisjsha Dicken was shopping with his girlfriend when a gunman opened fire on a food court at a Greenwood, Indiana, mall Sunday evening, killing three people and wounding two others.




					www.cnn.com
				




======



West Virginia woman....











						Woman credited with stopping mass shooting at apartment complex in West Virginia
					

Police say a woman's actions may have prevented a mass casualty event following an altercation about a man speeding through a neighborhood.




					www.wral.com
				




======



Shotgun attacker at Church service....











						Firearms instructor took out gunman at Texas church service
					

WHITE SETTLEMENT, Texas (AP) — Alarms went off in Jack Wilson's head the moment a man wearing a fake beard, a wig, a hat and a long coat walked into a Texas church for Sunday services...




					apnews.com
				




=====



Southerland Springs Church shooting .....





			https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/11/08/when-a-bystander-fired-on-the-texas-church-shooter-the-nra-found-its-hero/


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 11, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> You mean because I think it's INCREDIBLY stupid to arm teachers?  Something is wrong with me?


Yes.
You aren't able to understand no one is talking about arming teachers.


Cardinal Carminative said:


> You are one to talk.  Are you one of those gun lovers who doesn't mind seeing dead kids?


There you go again, standing on the bodies and bathing in the blood of innocent children as a means to push your mindless agenda.
So, in addition to the above, you're also a sociopath.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 11, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> I think Uvalde showed us what most ammosexuals would do when the bullets start flying.  Hide and cower.


400 ammosexuals... with badges.
If only the police a military should have guns, and the police refuse to act....  then what?


Cardinal Carminative said:


> I suspect most of you ammosexuals are just paper tigers.  You fantasize about being a big hero.  But you are too scared of everyone and everything.


Quite an imagination you have there - must be why you tell people you're never alone on Saturday nights.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 11, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> If that is what you want to see.


Tell me how I am wrong.
Oh.  You can't.  Because you know I am right.
Because you know you cannot demonstrate that your claim made sense.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 11, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> And the cool thing about your solutions is: it puts the onus on just plain folks...


The onus is always on plain folks - you are your own first responder.
You can choose to not take that responsibility, but then you choose to put your life in the hands of others.


> It arms teachers and turns schools into armed encampments.


You're just unhappy because you know it will work better than a "No guns" sign - which means fewer dead kids you can use to push your mindless agenda.
And we know you don't want that.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (Sep 11, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Tell me how I am wrong.



What a waste of my time!  You'll just be a douche about it.



M14 Shooter said:


> Oh.  You can't.  Because you know I am right.



Oh I'm sure you're 'right' about something.  



M14 Shooter said:


> Because you know you cannot demonstrate that your claim made sense.



LOL.  Buffoon


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 11, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> What a waste of my time!  You'll just be a douche about it.


Your surrender, accepted.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (Sep 11, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Your surrender, accepted.



Yup.  Douchebag.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Sep 11, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> Yup.  Douchebag.


Best you can do?
Oh wait.   Yes.   It is.


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 12, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Here...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh please! Now you are including the sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland? 

Well in that case, the US has had 279 mass shootings in this year alone, so far 14,283 Americans have been killed by guns.








						Gun Violence Archive
					






					www.gunviolencearchive.org


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 12, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Wrong, again.....you are trying to confuse the issue, again....



On the contrary, you are the one  pushing an agenda, I merely pick apart your "argument" which forces you to deluge any thread with cut and paste discredited BS, to try and bury and deflect. It's a tactic used by the Soviet Communists called a "fire hose of falsehoods".


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 12, 2022)

2aguy said:


> And now to the other problem in Britain...increasing gun crime.....
> 
> 29 out of 43 English and Welsh police forces have seen increases in gun crime during that same period.
> 
> ...


Duh, handguns and automatic weapons are illegal in the UK, so possessing one is automatically a "gun crime". Figures are going up because law enforcement here is getting better at finding smugglers.


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 12, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Duh, handguns and automatic weapons are illegal in the UK, so possessing one is automatically a "gun crime". Figures are going up because law enforcement here is getting better at finding smugglers.



They are finding them because there are more of them……


----------



## 2aguy (Sep 12, 2022)

Vagabond63 said:


> Duh, handguns and automatic weapons are illegal in the UK, so possessing one is automatically a "gun crime". Figures are going up because law enforcement here is getting better at finding smugglers.



From the article I just posted you can get an illegal gun in Britain for about £150……cheaper than a gun in the U.S legally…….


----------



## Vagabond63 (Sep 12, 2022)

2aguy said:


> They are finding them because there are more of them……


Oh good grief. 
"In reporting the number of firearm offences, it is not always possible to ascertain whether a real firearm was actually used. Unless a weapon is fired or recovered by the police following a criminal offence, in many cases there is no way of knowing conclusively whether the firearm was real or an imitation, or whether it was loaded or unloaded at the time of the offence. Moreover, the categorisation of firearms will sometimes be strongly reliant on the description given to the police by victims or witnesses, or upon other evidence. Some offences also involve the use of imitation weapons, while others involve the use of a ‘supposed firearm’."
"It is worth noting that the ONS suggest that some of the recent increases in recorded crime are due to “*improved crime recording practices and processes leading to a greater proportion of reports of crime being recorded.”* "https://commonslibrary.parliament.u...ere were a total,offences recorded in 2019/20.


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## Vagabond63 (Sep 12, 2022)

2aguy said:


> From the article I just posted you can get an illegal gun in Britain for about £150……cheaper than a gun in the U.S legally…….


Well you can rent on for that amount, although it is not clear if that's per day, per week, or per month.


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