# How long before Kurdistan becomes a "Problem"?



## GHook93 (Jan 16, 2009)

The Kurds want independence for Iraq! They basically have it now. For the most part they have been a success story in Iraq war from the beginning. When the US eventually leaves Iraq, Iraq will have many problems. I believe this will be one for them. The Kurds are buying their time. They know if they tried to separate now, they would have to take on the US with Turkey probably more than happy to help, but when the US leaves, there is very very little disincentive for them to not cut and run. The Iraqi army probably will have its hands filled with keeping the rest of Iraq secure under amongst Shia/Sunni riffes. So I see Kurdistan doing a Kosovo and unilaterally parting from Iraq. They have been building up their economy and most likely military capacities for the day when the US leaves. Honestly they would be stupid not to try it now, since Iraq will be at its weakest when the US leaves!

But see the map below! The Kurds have made claims to more than just the Iraq, they believe a large chunk of Turkey, Iran and small pieces of Syria and Armenia are part of Kurdistan. This could cause a problem, since its unlikely that they will ever be able to get any territory beyond their current borders.

Nevertheless, just as the Palestinians deserve a homeland, the Kurds are just, if not more, as deserving a homeland too. Especially since they have been the victims of genocide by the Turks, Iraqis and Iranians and they are still discriminated against in Turkey, Iran (especially Iran), Iraq and Syria!

http://www.kokhavivpublications.com/help/maps/map.php?id=Kurdistan






Free Kurdistan, reasoning!
Free Kurdistan!: And Babylonia and Sumeria too! - Reason Magazine


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## GHook93 (Jan 16, 2009)

Here is the map!


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## editec (Jan 16, 2009)

> *How long before Kurdistan becomes a "Problem"? *




They've been a problem for a mighty long time.

Little Miss Muffet, for example, complained that she had Kurds in her Whey.


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## GHook93 (Jan 16, 2009)

editec said:


> They've been a problem for a mighty long time.
> 
> Little Miss Muffet, for example, complained that she had Kurds in her Whey.



Funny, owe so funny 

If you don't want to address the thread then don't troll it!


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## editec (Jan 16, 2009)

GHook93 said:


> Funny, owe so funny
> 
> If you don't want to address the thread then don't troll it!


 
Can't take the punishment, huh?

The Kurds _ARE_ the way, G. 

The Kurds have been in everyone's _way_ since the 1923 Treaty of Lausanne.

Another Asiatic disaster brought to us by the victors of WWI.  Another of the multitudes of failings I might add.

The right thing would have been to create that _promised land call Kurdistan_ per the1920 Treaty of Sevres.




> SECTION III.
> KURDISTAN.
> ARTICLE 62.
> 
> ...


 
source

Now, of course, that solution is too late.  

We cannot piss of Turkey, we won't have control over Iraq soon, and Iran isn't likely to give us their territory, either.


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## GHook93 (Jan 16, 2009)

editec said:


> Can't take the punishment, huh?
> 
> The Kurds _ARE_ the way, G.
> 
> ...



Very true, but I see them pulling away from Iraq in their current smaller state shortly after the US pulls out of Iraq and after a period of temporary chaos in the country! Kurdstan will be independent by 2011 and Iraq probably will fight it, but will have more pressing issues to deal with Iraq as a whole!

Then the question will be if the Kurds will be statisfied with a piece of land that is only a fraction of what they claim Kurdstan should encompass or will they seek more? My gut tells me they will sit tight for a little while, but then radical fractions will provoke Turk and Iran and trouble will begin!


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## GHook93 (Jan 19, 2009)

Why do the Kurds get ignored just like they do in this post!


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## GHook93 (Jan 19, 2009)

They deserve a home country. They are very close to getting a fraction of what Kurdistan used to be. However, they will have to succeed from Iraq. Suceed from Iraq will probably not be too difficult after the US leaves, but will the hold onto their desires for greater Kurdistan, which encompasses Turkey, Iran and Syria. Probably not. So they will be in struggle for more land, even though they have a free independent country of their own. They will never get the sympathy or coverage that the Pals get though, since it will be Muslim on Muslim meaning the hypocritical Muslim community across Europe will be split or frankly won't give a shit.


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## Tech_Esq (Jan 19, 2009)

GHook93 said:


> They deserve a home country. They are very close to getting a fraction of what Kurdistan used to be. However, they will have to succeed from Iraq. Suceed from Iraq will probably not be too difficult after the US leaves, but will the hold onto their desires for greater Kurdistan, which encompasses Turkey, Iran and Syria. Probably not. So they will be in struggle for more land, even though they have a free independent country of their own. They will never get the sympathy or coverage that the Pals get though, since it will be Muslim on Muslim meaning the hypocritical Muslim community across Europe will be split or frankly won't give a shit.



Forget it. If the Kurds split away from Iraq, the Turks will crush them like a bug. Nobody will even blink. (Hell, the Turks may crush them like a bug anyway.)


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## GHook93 (Jan 19, 2009)

Tech_Esq said:


> Forget it. If the Kurds split away from Iraq, the Turks will crush them like a bug. Nobody will even blink. (Hell, the Turks may crush them like a bug anyway.)



They are pretty self-automnous right now in Iraq! 

Now if the Turks crush them are they still going to be crying foul at Israel?


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## Tech_Esq (Jan 19, 2009)

GHook93 said:


> They are pretty self-automnous right now in Iraq!
> 
> Now if the Turks crush them are they still going to be crying foul at Israel?



Is there some reason to believe that the Turks are not hypocrites?

The Kurds are not Arabs, the Israelis are not Arabs. The Turks care about keeping their standing among Arab countries. They have already sent a punitive mission into the Kurdish reason. There is no reason to believe that they would not do it again with more force once the US is out. Further there is no reason to think that if the Kurds separate it wouldn't be worse.


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## GHook93 (Jan 19, 2009)

Tech_Esq said:


> Is there some reason to believe that the Turks are not hypocrites?
> 
> The Kurds are not Arabs, the Israelis are not Arabs. The Turks care about keeping their standing among Arab countries. They have already sent a punitive mission into the Kurdish reason. There is no reason to believe that they would not do it again with more force once the US is out. Further there is no reason to think that if the Kurds separate it wouldn't be worse.



Hence how long before the Kurds become a problem. I predict 1 month after the US leave Iraq and the Iraqi government is on their own fighting secular violence between Sunnis and Shias, the Kurds will cease their opportunity and declare their independence. 

So how long in your opinion will it take for the Kurds to become a problem Turkey, Syria or Iran? Who will Kurdistan's first war be with? Will it be a join Turk, Persia, Syria and/or Iraqi alliance against the Kurds just like in '48 vs Israel?


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## Neubarth (Jan 19, 2009)

Personally, I would like the see the Kurds (The ancient Medes of the Bible) independant. Their ethnic regions in Turkey, Syria, Iraq and Iran should be unified after we go for regime change in Iran.  The more we divide up the larger countries in that region, the less BIG problems we will have.


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## ekrem (Jan 20, 2009)

GHook93 said:


> Hence how long before the Kurds become a problem. I predict 1 month after the US leave Iraq and the Iraqi government is on their own fighting secular violence between Sunnis and Shias, the Kurds will cease their opportunity and declare their independence.
> 
> So how long in your opinion will it take for the Kurds to become a problem Turkey, Syria or Iran? Who will Kurdistan's first war be with? Will it be a join Turk, Persia, Syria and/or Iraqi alliance against the Kurds just like in '48 vs Israel?




Hello.
The Kurdish Administration of North-East Iraq will only get indenpendent when regional circumstances allow this to happen. 
This means:

- The "Kurdish Administration" becoming economicaly survivable on its own (inclusion of Kirkuk into "Kurdish Administration).
- some sort of inofficial acceptance by a neighbouring country to this independence, where this independent country then interacts with the rest of the world. Either way "Kurdistan" is landlocked. --> Trade routes, opening up of Air- and landspace.

These circumstances did not have arisen.
Kirkuk will stay under authority of the central Iraqi government. This means that the "Kurdish Administration" is in need of the central government for its finances.
Allthough there are ressources within the "Kurdish Administration" itself these do not match an income generation as nearly as to that of what Kirkuk promises. Besides oil there is heavy industry in Kirkuk located. 
:


> Stratfor has received word that Turkish President Abdullah Gul recently reached a deal with U.S. President George W. Bush on the question of Kirkuk and Turkish military intervention in northern Iraq. In return for the shelving of U.S. plans to hold the Kirkuk referendum, Turkey allegedly has promised not to launch a large-scale military incursion into northern Iraq and instead will stick to cross-border shelling and occasional airstrikes


Free Preview of Members-Only Content | Stratfor

Also you can't compare the situation of Israel to that of the "Kurdish Administration". Totally different story. The GDP of the "Kurdish Administration" is   27 Billion Dollars.
That GDP is 34 times smaller then Turkey, or in other words exactly the size of the Turkish Army Pension Fund. We will not hunger if we stop economical interaction. They will as 
About 80 percent of foreign investment in Kurdistan now comes from Turkey.


We also did open a University in the "Kurdish Administration". That University is granted by YÖK (Higher Education Board of Turkey) acceptance. So the diplomas of the graduates from that university are accepted within Turkish economy. Let's face it, the "Kurdish Administration" is built upon ressources. You need there graduates of petro-industry, some economists and agricultury industry. Other branches of industry they must first build-up. For this to happen they do not have the Know-How. So that is a good oportunity for the graduates to work in Turkish economy.

Since 1.1.2009 Turkish state Television does also send our propaganda 24 hours into North-Iraq. The Channel is called TRT-6, or TRT-Ses in Kurdish.
TRT.TELEVÄ°ZYON

The only option for independence is massive US assistance against the will of Turkey. That was a friction between USA and Turkey since 2003. But solved. There will be no independence. Facts on ground do not open a door of independence to pass through. "Kurdish Administration" will interact with the world through Iraqi state. Independence is an "all or nothing" strategy, and it will lead to nothing.


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## GHook93 (Jan 21, 2009)

ekrem said:


> Hello.
> The Kurdish Administration of North-East Iraq will only get indenpendent when regional circumstances allow this to happen.
> This means:
> 
> ...



Right now there is a Kurdistan, which is fraction of the size of anicent Kurdistan, but its located entirely in Iraq. Right now Kurdistan acts independent is almost every way. Do you really believe that when the current Iraqi government will be at its weakest and have more problems with Shia and Sunni infighting, that the Kurds will not cease the opportunity and do a Kosovo type split?


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## ekrem (Jan 21, 2009)

GHook93 said:


> Right now there is a Kurdistan, which is fraction of the size of anicent Kurdistan, but its located entirely in Iraq. Right now Kurdistan acts independent is almost every way. Do you really believe that when the current Iraqi government will be at its weakest and have more problems with Shia and Sunni infighting, that the Kurds will not cease the opportunity and do a Kosovo type split?




The "Kurdish Administration" does not act independently in almost everyway, but it is acting in the context of the new Iraqi constitution which grants them legislative rights over the 3 provinces which they administer. A thank-you present by US for their cooperation. 
All in the context of preserving territorial integrity. 

Kosovo's security is backed by NATO. Kosovo does also have access via land-territory and water to interact with the world --> Macedonia and Albania. Kosovo's independence is backed by many significant countries worldwide (US) and in the region (EU+Turkey). These states do also guarantee Kosovo's security on ground. You can not compare this to the "Kurdish Administration" in North-Iraq. The door for independence was open for Kosovarians, so they stepped through. In case of Iraq the door is closed by different reasons. And so it will stay as the "Kurdish Administration" is in no way a sort of  economical, military and geo-political power which has the ability to force its "design-wishes" upon the region.


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## GHook93 (Mar 4, 2009)

Asia Times Online :: Middle East News, Iraq, Iran current affairs

The Kurds are now fearing the day the Americans leave the country? Why is that? The Iraq army is now 500K strong and the government appears to be stable. The Kurds who desire their own state know that it will be difficult now. However, I don't think that will stop them from trying to pull away. Expect war and another slaughter of the Kurds!


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## Shogun (Mar 5, 2009)

We could always give the Kurds Southern Israel for a brand spanking new nation....


surely, SURELY zionists won't react violently to THAT!


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## auditor0007 (Mar 5, 2009)

The Kurds will never get independence.  That being said, the Iraqis would be wise to allow them some automony within Iraq.  Set them up as a state within Iraq.  The reason the Shia and Sunni will not allow the Kurds independence is that the Kurds are sitting on a lot of oil.  The Sunnis would definitely be against this as the majority of land they occupy has little oil.  

Not sure what will happen, but I am pretty certain, Kurdish independence is not in the equation.


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## Tech_Esq (Mar 5, 2009)

auditor0007 said:


> The Kurds will never get independence.  That being said, the Iraqis would be wise to allow them some automony within Iraq.  Set them up as a state within Iraq.  The reason the Shia and Sunni will not allow the Kurds independence is that the Kurds are sitting on a lot of oil.  The Sunnis would definitely be against this as the majority of land they occupy has little oil.
> 
> Not sure what will happen, but I am pretty certain, Kurdish independence is not in the equation.



The Kurds are also Sunni, no? It's just Kurd trumps Sunni for them.


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## Epsilon Delta (Mar 5, 2009)

Others have pretty much addressed it already- the geopolitical reality basically murders the viability of any independent Kurdish state. If it were to secede from Iraq it would cause secessionism in the Kurdish areas of neighboring countries and nobody wants that. Unless it can find a super-powerful patron state to arm and fund it regardless of the possibility of outright war with Turkey/Iran/Whoever, it's pretty much hopeless.


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## Rando (May 5, 2012)

guys,berzani said if iraq keeps on heading towards a dictatorship,they will hold a vote for independence in september this year (2012).
not only that,but turkey said it would recognize an independent KRG/South kurdistan IF we and US helped turkey to get PKK out of afrin moutains. US agreed to it.
Sunni`s and Shia`s don`t have the power to take on kurdistan  if it decleares independece. 
Syria have its own problems.
Iran can`t do anything,because an attack against S.K could trigger a intense gurilla warfare inside iran by kurds in iran. not only that: The slightest aggresive move by iran could trigger an US-israeli attack against it. 
economecly,kurdistan will survive. as it will produce 500,000 by the end of this year. the oil will go truth turkey,as they agreed to sell their products even if kurdistan is decleared.


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## RoccoR (May 7, 2012)

GHook93,  _*et al,*_

Someday the Kurdish will establish a state.  But not anytime soon.  Certainly not before the Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG) has been satisfied over Kirkuk.  And it is not likely that the governemnt in Erbil (KRG) will start a conflict over Turkish Territory.  That woud risk everything.  



GHook93 said:


> ...   ...  ...Honestly they would be stupid not to try it now, since Iraq will be at its weakest when the US leaves!
> 
> But see the map below! The Kurds have made claims to more than just the Iraq, they believe a large chunk of Turkey, Iran and small pieces of Syria and Armenia are part of Kurdistan. This could cause a problem, since its unlikely that they will ever be able to get any territory beyond their current borders.


*(COMMENT)*

There was once a Treaty; The Treaty of Sèvres (10 August 1920).  This is were the original promise of a Kurdish homeland was made.  Unfortunately it never came to pass.  But for several decades, the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) has been trying to mount a struggle to form such a state through armed terrorist activity.



			
				Iraqi President Jalal Talabani said:
			
		

> The president also gave an example of what could happen if Iraqs Kurds were to declare independence. Imagine the Kurdish Parliament decided to be independent. Even if none of Turkey, Syria, Iraq or Iran fought the new state with arms, but simply closed the borders, how could anyone get there? So we must be realistic, we are enjoying our rights now, Talabani said.



But President Talabani may not be illuminating the complete story.  Rumor has it that the Erbil and Ankara have been exchanging ideas relative to an Independent Kurdistan.  However, it would probably require the neutralization of the PKK operating on both sides of the border and some oil concessions.

The cost may be a bit too high at the moment; and there are still ongoing agreements between Erbil and Baghdad that need resolved.  However, if Baghdad become uncooperative, it is possible that Masoud Barzani, Leading the KRG, might call for independence.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## kirkuki (Jun 22, 2012)

to all you cleuless haters , Kurdistan has already been established just needs proclaiming ... i know you will all have a sleepless night tonight but it is what it is , kurds in South kurdistan has given Halabja gassing and Anfal campaign which cost 5000 and 182000 lives respectivly which of you have given so many lives for a statehood !!? turks , iranians ? iraqis or syrians maybe ! not . and not Syrian(West) kurdistan is getting its autonomy , when iran is attacked the East kurdistan will become free , so it will be turkey vs 3 kurdistans lol , good luck then .


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## kirkuki (Jun 22, 2012)

here is a video to those wondering why kurds want a state on their ancestral lands occupied by "muslims" which by the way occupation of another nation's land is forbidden in the Quran lol , lesson # for blind turks .


What if you were born a Kurd? - YouTube


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## RoccoR (Jun 23, 2012)

kirkuki,  _et al,_

The little video is a nice piece of work.  It plays to the sympathy and emotion of the common man.  It is a well done clip.



kirkuki said:


> here is a video to those wondering why kurds want a state on their ancestral lands occupied by "muslims" which by the way occupation of another nation's land is forbidden in the Quran lol , lesson # for blind turks .


*(COMMENT)*

The establishment of firm borders and recognized boundaries inside northern Iraq should be the first goal.  That will be hard enough; politically and militarily.

It is not reasonable to assume that, given the current Regional political climate of the adjacent states, the Kurdish Culture cannot expect much more.  Certainly, no Syrian or Turkish territory should even be considered at this time.  And the continued suggestion that any new Kurdish autonomy would include Syrian or Turkish Territory will not further international regional support for the cause.  

Additionally, the Kurdistan Regional Government, should be focused on the settlement of the Kirkuk lines.   And that will be a hard sell, if not a fight.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## GHook93 (Jun 25, 2012)

Rando said:


> guys,berzani said if iraq keeps on heading towards a dictatorship,they will hold a vote for independence in september this year (2012).
> not only that,but turkey said it would recognize an independent KRG/South kurdistan IF we and US helped turkey to get PKK out of afrin moutains. US agreed to it.
> Sunni`s and Shia`s don`t have the power to take on kurdistan  if it decleares independece.
> Syria have its own problems.
> ...



Not disputing what you are saying, but do you have a link. I know the Kurdish PM has stated if the Iraqi stagnate governmenbt doesn't do anything then the will vote on independence, but I hadn't seen anything on a September timeframe. I also haven't see anything on Turkey saying they would recognize the country. 
You are right on Syria, they won't do anything with problems of their own. I think there is more secular fighting in Iraq then the media is letting onto and it should only get worse. Iran can't do anything, because they don't want to give reason for NATO to attack!


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## kirkuki (Jun 25, 2012)

RoccoR said:


> kirkuki,  _et al,_
> 
> The little video is a nice piece of work.  It plays to the sympathy and emotion of the common man.  It is a well done clip.
> 
> ...



well i think each occupied part of kurdistan has to be freed in its own unique ways , yes South kurdistan is on the way for independence , western kurdistan is already enjoying autonomy and they will not back out on it after Assad , eastern kurdistan depends on the fall of the mullahs in Tehran , so it is only turkey in the end that will be forced to give an autonomy to 15-20 million kurds living in northern kurdistan .


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## RoccoR (Jun 25, 2012)

kirkuki,  _et al,_

Asking for the Sun, and the Moon and the Stars, will get you nothing.



kirkuki said:


> well i think each occupied part of kurdistan has to be freed in its own unique ways , yes South kurdistan is on the way for independence , western kurdistan is already enjoying autonomy and they will not back out on it after Assad , eastern kurdistan depends on the fall of the mullahs in Tehran , so it is only turkey in the end that will be forced to give an autonomy to 15-20 million kurds living in northern kurdistan .


*(COMMENT)*

Get recognized first.  Get a nation.  Right now, there is no autonomous nation for the Kurds; not recognized by the body of nations _(anyway)_.  Baby sets!  

Don't count on shaving Syrian territory during a transition.  The UN will take special care that Syria is not carved-up during such a sensitive and critical period.  

Turkey is not going to give the Kurds the time of day.  In fact, it will fight against the establishment of any autonomous territory for the Kurds; even that within the Iraqi border.

If the Kurdish people start a serious controversial issue, or risk the ignition of hostilities, it will lose its sympathetic support and setback the objective.  The Kurds will have to be patient and accommodating. _ (Just one man's opinion.)_

Most Respectfully,
R


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## kirkuki (Jul 10, 2012)




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## RoccoR (Jul 11, 2012)

kirkuki,  _*et al,*_

This is a great "historical map;" but (unfortunately) it relates to the The Treaty of Sèvres (10 August 1920) at the end of the first World War.   The main state players were Britain, France, and the Ottoman Empire.  



kirkuki said:


>


*(COMMENT)*

Before the Treaty was ratified by the Ottoman Empire, which would have established an autonomous Kurdistan in eastern Anatolia; Atatürk  (Mustafa Kemal) affected a Regime Change, overthrowing the reigning Sultan and abolished the Sultanate (Mehmet VI).  This negated the agreements under the Treaty of Sèvres (10 August 1920) and was ultimately superseded by the Treaty of Lausanne (1923).  Thus, the plans to establish an autonomous Kurdistan we disolved and gave rise to the beginning of the Kurdish separatists movement associated today _(modern times)_ with the Kurdistan Workers' Party [PKK - AKA:  Kurdistan Freedom and Democracy Congress (KADEK)**] _(opposed by Turkey and Iraq)_.  It also ended the concept of an independent Armenia.

*NOTE: * AKA Historically: Peoples Congress of Kurdistan, Kongra Gel, Kongra Gele Kurdistan, Partiya Karkeren Kurdistan, New PKK, Freedom and Democratic Congress of Kurdistan, Kurdistan Freedom and Democracy Congress (KADEK), Kurdistan Halk Kongresi (KHK), Kurdistan Labor Party, Kurdistan Peoples Congress, Kurdish Freedom Falcons, Kurdish Liberation Hawks, Kurdistan Ozgurluk Sahinleri, Teyrbazên Azadiya Kurdistan (TAK).​​
The PKK Separatist Movement has always been committed to the creation of an independent homeland for the Kurdish People in a Marxist fashion and revolt.  The PKK is considered a regional terrorist group and has publicly stated (October 2005) that it will continue its armed campaign against in Turkey until the Turkish government meets its 
demands.  



			
				Turkish Weekly Alakbar Raufoglu for SES Türkiye -- 04/07/12 said:
			
		

> Seeking an end to the rising tide of PKK attacks from the mountains of northern Iraq, Turkey is again enlisting the support of the Iraqi Kurdish leadership. Iraqi President Jalal Talabani, a Kurd, and Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG) President Massoud Barzani have been urging the PKK to declare a ceasefire -- and eventually lay down its arms -- in order to give a political solution a chance.
> 
> *SOURCE:* Turkey Looks to KRG for Help Against PKK, 5 July 2012 Thursday 10:25



There seems to be some "recent" movement on the issue.  It appears that the senior leadership of the Justice and Development Party (AKP) have opened a discreet dialog with the imprisoned PKK leader.  The AKP is a major player in Turkish domestic policy, and holds the key to how solutions are developed.  This, I think is a major break-through.



			
				Rudaw -  Secret Talks Reported between Turkey and Imprisoned PKK Leader said:
			
		

> ERBIL, Kurdistan Region -- A source close to Abdullah Ocalan, the imprisoned leader of the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK), informed Rudaw that a meeting between him and the Turkish state has taken place in his cell on Imrali Island.
> 
> Ilhami Isik, also known as Balikci, told Rudaw that a delegation from the Turkish state visited Ocalan on June 26.
> 
> ...



I am thinking that the PKK have come to understand that there is a better way to achieving autonomy than merely through armed action; and that further armed action may just be counterproductive.  We shall see.

Most Respectively,
R


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## kirkuki (Jul 11, 2012)

Well if the treaty of Sevres was implemented , none of these kurdish rebels would have existed now . 

i see some lil changes going ahead by AKP but so far it is only talks no solid proof on the grounds . 

and the only solution is to re-new the Treaty of Sevres or back to square one and the fighting will carry on.

and pkk is not a terrorist group , they juts simply seek "self-rule" like KRG .. 

if pkk is a terrorist so is the turkish army:



> *Turkish military kills 35 Kurdish civilians*
> 
> Turkish military kills 35 Kurdish civilians - OpenGlobe


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## High_Gravity (Jul 16, 2012)

I have always liked the Kurds they have the resources and the manpower to have their own country, I hope they can get it.


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## RoccoR (Jul 16, 2012)

kirkuki,  _et al,_

The Treaty of Sevres is dead.  It may have been a good idea at one time, but now we are dealing with entirely different state actors. 



kirkuki said:


> Well if the treaty of Sevres was implemented , none of these kurdish rebels would have existed now .
> 
> i see some lil changes going ahead by AKP but so far it is only talks no solid proof on the grounds .
> 
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

The Turkish Army is protecting its national sovereignty.  The Kurdistan Workers' Party (PPK) is a subversive and insurgent terrorist organization attempting to use of force and violence to intimidate or coerce the Turkish government, the local indigenous population, in furtherance of defunct political objectives and social goals.  

The PPK's actions are not only a disruptive and terrorist entity from a Turkish view, it is detrimental to the establishment of a Kurdish Sovereignty within the Iraqi Border.  The PPK's insistance on pursuing a multi-state carve-out is going to adversely impact the Kurdish Sovereignty in Iraq and eventually cause a deadly civil dispute between the Kurdish Regional Government (KRG) and counterproductive PPK elements; necessary for the KRG to secure Turkish support for KRG independence.  But if Turkish sovereignty is jeopardized, you can bet that the Turks will become incrementally more forceful with those Kurdish enclaves that render aid, support, and assistance to the PPK.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## kirkuki (Jul 16, 2012)

no, the pkk is asking for kurdish rights , in case you have forgotten the turkish constitution says there are only turks in turkey , hence denying over 15 million kurds who live on their ancestral land . 

if turkey gives kurds autonomy then pkk will lay arms down, if not then there will be fighting going on till freedom is granted.


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## kirkuki (Jul 17, 2012)

RoccoR said:


> The Turkish Army is protecting its national sovereignty.



its occupying kurdish lands and they have to leave these lands or fighting will go on.



> The Kurdistan Workers' Party (PPK) is a subversive and insurgent terrorist organization attempting to use of force and violence to intimidate or coerce the Turkish government, the local indigenous population, in furtherance of defunct political objectives and social goals.



Turkish military kills 35 Kurdish civilians - OpenGlobe
Turkish military operations will stop if PKK lays down arms. By Dr. Kirmanj Gundi


> The PPK's actions are not only a disruptive and terrorist entity from a Turkish view, it is detrimental to the establishment of a Kurdish Sovereignty within the Iraqi Border.  The PPK's insistance on pursuing a multi-state carve-out is going to adversely impact the Kurdish Sovereignty in Iraq and eventually cause a deadly civil dispute between the Kurdish Regional Government (KRG) and counterproductive PPK elements; necessary for the KRG to secure Turkish support for KRG independence.  But if Turkish sovereignty is jeopardized, you can bet that the Turks will become incrementally more forceful with those Kurdish enclaves that render aid, support, and assistance to the PPK.



KRG will never interfere in the pkk-turk war, and it has officially said this 100 times , pkk is waiting for a brave world leader to take 15 million kurdish interests into account not the turkish government account as its an ally to the west at the moment which really shows the double standard of the west, because they allow turkey to kill kurdish citizens while they call assad a dictator which too does the same with its people , the only way to get the northern kurdistan back it thru war since turks do not know how to be peaceful hence their genocidal past.


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## High_Gravity (Jul 17, 2012)

Why is everyone so gung ho for the Palestinians to take all of Israel but nobody wants the Kurds to have anything? whats up with that?


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## RoccoR (Jul 17, 2012)

High_Gravity,  _et al,_

I don't think this is quite right.



High_Gravity said:


> Why is everyone so gung ho for the Palestinians to take all of Israel but nobody wants the Kurds to have anything? whats up with that?


*(COMMENT)*

There is no doubt that the Palestinians have their following and supporters.  But I don't think there is a very large following outside the radical Arab contingent that wants the demise of Israel.  I certainly don't.  But I see that both the Palestinians and the Israeli have, in part, elements that are irrational on the topic.

The Kurds are similar.  In some respects they have elements, that irrationally subscribe to a homeland.

Some people forget that the Turkish people are made up of a number of ethnic cultures - to include those of Kurdish heretage.  Just as America is made up of a number of different groups, to include those of American-Indian heretage.  It doesn't means that America, or any other country in the 21st Century has to be carved-up to accomodate those individual diversities.  

Most Respectfully,
R


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## kirkuki (Jul 17, 2012)

> Turkish people are made up of a number of ethnic cultures



that is a false statement and that is what ataturk and turkey;s constitution does as well "deny 15 million kurds" , the correct statement should have been "turkey is made up of a number of ethnic cultures".


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## Mr. President (Jul 18, 2012)

I have said this every trip over there and will continue to say it.  Kurds are the only people in that region with any kind of sense and the only ones with the abillity to self govern.  They are militarily and economically sound.


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## High_Gravity (Jul 18, 2012)

Mr. President said:


> I have said this every trip over there and will continue to say it.  Kurds are the only people in that region with any kind of sense and the only ones with the abillity to self govern.  They are militarily and economically sound.



Yup, the Kurds are a good people with the resources and the people to run their own country, the only problem is they are hated and despised by all their neighbors/


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## RoccoR (Jul 18, 2012)

kirkuki;  _et al,_

OK, I'll take the hit on that.



kirkuki said:


> > Turkish people are made up of a number of ethnic cultures
> 
> 
> 
> that is a false statement and that is what ataturk and turkey;s constitution does as well "deny 15 million kurds" , the correct statement should have been "turkey is made up of a number of ethnic cultures".


*(COMMENT)*

But the point is, the Kurd's are not denied representation as Turkish Citizens.



			
				I. Turkish Citizenship
ARTICLE 66. (As amended on October 17 said:
			
		

> Everyone bound to the Turkish state through the bond of citizenship is a Turk.
> The child of a Turkish father or a Turkish mother is a Turk.
> Citizenship can be acquired under the conditions stipulated by law, and shall be forfeited
> only in cases determined by law.
> ...



Everyone is a "Turk"  in Turkey.  The Constitution doesn't make a distinction between ethnic, tribal or religious affiliation.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## High_Gravity (Jul 18, 2012)

RoccoR said:


> kirkuki;  _et al,_
> 
> OK, I'll take the hit on that.
> 
> ...



Thats all just window dressing, Kurds in Turkey cannot even teach Kurdish in schools and they are not treated the same as regular Turkish citizens, even though it says so on paper. If this were all true the PKK would have no problems with Turkey.


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## RoccoR (Jul 18, 2012)

High_Gravity,  _et al,_

Yes, of course.  That is what makes the PPK look foolish.



High_Gravity said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > kirkuki;  _et al,_
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

As for the language issue, that is actually something similar to what the US went through some time ago.  

Under the Turkish Constitution, the primary language for ALL Turks is Turkish.



			
				III. Integrity of the State said:
			
		

> The Turkish state, with its territory and nation, is an indivisible entity. Its
> language is Turkish.



While Kurdish is the principle minority language, Arabic, Laz Language, Armenian and Greek are also spoken.

Ataturk saw a need for all Turks to be bound by a common language. 

While I have always had favorable dealings with the Kurds; not everyone loves the Kurds, and not every country thinks along the same lines as America.  So, there will be less than perfect outcomes in countries like Turkey that have to deal with the Kurd on national security matters and the threat.  The language is one of those less than perfect outcomes.

I cannot defend the Turks for the direction they have chosen to take, but it is part of their chosen destiny and the direction they have taken.  

Most Respectfully,
R










[==========-


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## kirkuki (Jul 19, 2012)

not long ago a kurd was beaten by turkish police at a checkpoint because "he spoke kurdish" !!

the turkish constitution article 140 denies kurdish existences despite been 15 million in number , how is this fair !!?? why is US allowing such unfairness to occur in turkey !!! US must drop is "good kurd bad kurd" policy and see kurds in one eye, that is they deserve a nation and a recognized border of their own in the areas they cuurently hold majority which is their ancestral lands by the way , we did not ask or we were not asked after the fall of the ottoman empire to be part of iraq iran turkey and syria , we were forced against our own will and consent , this has to be reversed .

you cant force people to be something they are not , kurds are not iraqi irani turkish or syrians they are Kurdistanis , we tried been those but all we saw was 'genocide' our villages destroyed chemical gassing , Anfal Campaign etc...

Czech and Slovakian were forced to be together in the end they separated.
Germans were forced to be separated in the end they reunited.

kurds are forced into countries where they are minorities and oppressed, they have to be reunited one day and declare the "great Kurdistan".


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## RoccoR (Jul 19, 2012)

kirkuki,  _et al,_

Let me try to examine this.



kirkuki said:


> not long ago a kurd was beaten by turkish police at a checkpoint because "he spoke kurdish" !!


*(COMMENT)*

Turkey, as is most of the Middle East, has trouble with their Law Enforcement and Border Police.  Just as we, here in the US, have anecdotal incidents of adverse police confrontations, so it is in Turkey, if not a bit more.  Not all countries are as restrained as the US in such matters.



kirkuki said:


> the turkish constitution article 140 denies kurdish existences despite been 15 million in number , how is this fair !!?? why is US allowing such unfairness to occur in turkey !!!


*(COMMENT)*

I'm not sure you have the right Article of the Constitution.  The Official English translation from the Government of Turkey shows Article 140 dealing with Judges.  I'm having difficulty finding the Turkish Constitution directly addressing the Kurd or Kurdish issue at all.  In fact, while the word "Turkish" is used 240 times in the Constitution, the words "Kurd, Kurds, Kurdish" don't appear once _(that I can find)_.  Can you be a little more specific?



			
				ARTICLE 140. said:
			
		

> Judges and public prosecutors shall serve as judges and public  prosecutors of courts of justice and of administrative courts. These duties shall be carried
> out by professional judges and public prosecutors.
> 
> Judges shall discharge their duties in accordance with the principles of the independence
> ...





kirkuki said:


> you cant force people to be something they are not , kurds are not iraqi irani turkish or syrians they are Kurdistanis , we tried been those but all we saw was 'genocide' our villages destroyed chemical gassing , Anfal Campaign etc...
> 
> Czech and Slovakian were forced to be together in the end they separated.
> Germans were forced to be separated in the end they reunited.


*(COMMENT)*

There is no - one shoe fits all - solution to these issues.  There are clans, tribes and groups, that assimilate --- and --- those that don't.  There are various political-military actions that are recorded throughout recent history that target minorities and ethnic differences.  The US has several of its own, that did not require separate political subdivision to be created.  When dealing with Dictatorial and Authoritarian Governments, particularly those in the Middle East, you will find the moral and ethical considerations rendered by those powers against their citizenry differ significantly from what we consider today as benevolent.  The case of the Kurds inability to regionally assimilate is not different.  The Kurds now have a chance to establish a quasi-homeland with some autonomy.  It is not what they might consider ideal, but it is more than they might expect.



kirkuki said:


> US must drop is "good kurd bad kurd" policy and see kurds in one eye, that is they deserve a nation and a recognized border of their own in the areas they cuurently hold majority which is their ancestral lands by the way , we did not ask or we were not asked after the fall of the ottoman empire to be part of iraq iran turkey and syria , we were forced against our own will and consent , this has to be reversed .


*(COMMENT)*

Unfortunately, the Kurds are not all qualified for nomination into Sainthood.  They all don't have clean hands.  It is the case that some act neither in the best interest of the Kurdis Regional Government or the best interest in the establishment of their own autonomous region.



kirkuki said:


> kurds are forced into countries where they are minorities and oppressed, they have to be reunited one day and declare the "great Kurdistan".


*(COMMENT)*

Or, they can assimilate.  It is unlikely that other nations are going to voluntarily give-up sovereignty of their territory just to accomodate the Kurds.  And any factions _(the PPK included)_ that tries to take such sovereign territory by force will face strong opposition.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## kirkuki (Jul 20, 2012)

RoccoR said:


> Turkey, as is most of the Middle East, has trouble with their Law Enforcement and Border Police.  Just as we, here in the US, have anecdotal incidents of adverse police confrontations, so it is in Turkey, if not a bit more.  Not all countries are as restrained as the US in such matters.



reality is reality , turks are known for been brutal, does the armenian genocide ring a bell !!?? 3000 kurdish villages were destroyed by turks , saddam did the same in south kurdistan.




> I'm not sure you have the right Article of the Constitution.  The Official English translation from the Government of Turkey shows Article 140 dealing with Judges.  I'm having difficulty finding the Turkish Constitution directly addressing the Kurd or Kurdish issue at all.  In fact, while the word "Turkish" is used 240 times in the Constitution, the words "Kurd, Kurds, Kurdish" don't appear once _(that I can find)_.  Can you be a little more specific?



exactly , kurds are denied their existence , ataturk use to call us "mountain turks" many racist turks still do.




> It is not what they might consider ideal, but it is more than they might expect.



we will fight till we get there, there is nothing that going to stop us , you might slow us down but thats is your cheapest shot. 




> Unfortunately, the Kurds are not all qualified for nomination into Sainthood.  They all don't have clean hands.  It is the case that some act neither in the best interest of the Kurdis Regional Government or the best interest in the establishment of their own autonomous region.



it must be step by step , first autonomy then you work on getting more rights like KRG is doing and it is working well.


> *
> Or, they can assimilate.*  It is unlikely that other nations are going to voluntarily give-up sovereignty of their territory just to accomodate the Kurds.  And any factions _(the PPK included)_ that tries to take such sovereign territory by force will face strong opposition.



assimilate ??? we have been fighting fascist turkish state for 80 years refusing to assimilate and your asking us in 2012, UN era and arab spring century to abandon our ethnicity and become turks ? what are you the new ataturk reborn !??? keep dreaming Mr. kurds are kurds we will fight for 1000 years to get our state and there is nothing your alikes can do to stop us .

we are the bravest people of ME, turks with all those US power, $ and equipment can not defeat us so forget it already and let the fight continue .

and nobody is giving us lands , we are already living on our ancestral lands which "was attached to these so called countries" after the fall of the ottoman empires WWII , they have stolen something and we will fight till we take them back , it is now theirs in the first place in order to "give it to us" please cut me the BS will ya !?


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## kirkuki (Jul 20, 2012)

RoccoR

here is the reply for your "kurds should assimilate themselve crap"


we will never back down until a kurdish state carved out of our occupied lands is declared if it  takes 1000 years .


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## kirkuki (Jul 20, 2012)

so far two parts of Kurdistan are liberated (South Kurdistan) and (Western Kurdistan) two more to go , eastern kurdistan will be liberated once US and Israel attack iran , so it will be poor turkey vs 3 kurdish states


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