# papers, please - once again republicans are working against freedom



## blu (Apr 20, 2010)

FOXNews.com - Arizona Immigration Enforcement Bill Stirs National Debate



> An Arizona bill that would impose some of the toughest immigration laws in the country is generating a storm of controversy nationwide as it tracks toward the governor's desk.
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> The Arizona Senate voted Monday to approve the final version of the bill, which was voted up on a party-line vote by the state House last Tuesday. If it's signed by Gov. Jan Brewer, it would give police in the state broad new powers to arrest and charge people suspected of being in the country illegally.



so glad the small government conservatives of the republican party are working to preserve people's freedom


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## Lonestar_logic (Apr 20, 2010)

blu said:


> FOXNews.com - Arizona Immigration Enforcement Bill Stirs National Debate
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Lets see arresting people for breaking the law, that's not really a novel idea. It has been going on for a while now.

Why does that upset you?


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## Darkwind (Apr 20, 2010)

Are they stopping everyone?  I would think that would be a requirement for the premise to be true....or is it that you just need the votes and don't want illegals being stopped?


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## manu1959 (Apr 20, 2010)

bastards....arresting law breakers......


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## blu (Apr 20, 2010)

Lonestar_logic said:


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since when do people have to carry ID in america at all times? since when could police threaten people with arrest simple because they think they are in the couuntry illegally? how many mexican american citizens will go to jail and face charges, ffines, and court dates unnecessarily once this is enforced?


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## Patriot214 (Apr 20, 2010)

A legal matter being handled by local and state police IS small goverment.  If the federal government were passing legislation that would grant the FBI the authority to handle these matters, then THAT would be an example of BIG government.  On a side note, in case I missed something, aren't the police supposed to arrest poeple who are breaking the law?


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## Lonestar_logic (Apr 20, 2010)

blu said:


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If you're an United States citizen then you should have some form of ID on you, pretty much all the time. I never go anywhere without my driver's license. If you get cought without an ID then you should be held until you can provide documention or until they can determine just who the hell you are. 

Don't you think it's important to know who is in our country and whether or not they have a legal right to be here?

No citizen will go to jail or pay a fine unless they are guilty of something. Not having an ID will not get you arrested, it will get you detained until it's determined who you are and whether you have a legal right to be here. So basically those American citizens that don't carry any form of ID will be inconvenienced at most.

How hard is that to understand?


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## CrusaderFrank (Apr 20, 2010)

Since when is crossing the border illegally into the USA a Constitutional right?

My mother came here in the mid-50's from Brazil and my Dad had to post a bond with the State Department to prove she wouldn't be a burden on the government, she kissed the ground when she disembarked at JFK so I have not a lot of sympathy for Illegals.


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## chanel (Apr 20, 2010)

I don't know anyone who doesn't varry I.D. Even teens without licenses generally have a school tag or a library card, why would anyone leave their wallet at home? Ever?


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## Lost Soul (Apr 20, 2010)

Once again Blu gets his ass handed to him in his own thread.LOLOLOLOL


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## saveliberty (Apr 20, 2010)

blu said:


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I would guess very few, because if you show your citizenship papers or birth certificate it will never make it to a fine or court date.  Getting pretty worked up over nothing.

WASHINGTON - A divided Supreme Court on Monday upheld state requirements that voters present photo identification cards before casting ballots.

Citing different reasons, six of nine justices agreed that Indiana's photo ID requirement represented a valid measure to deter voter fraud. The politically significant decision reaches well beyond Indiana, as other states likewise have been adopting more rigorous voter identification standards.

High court OKs requiring voter photo IDs

ID necessary to participate in elections.

Parolees to be required to carry IDs 

CORPUS CHRISTI (AP) - Inmates released early from prison will be required to carry identification cards beginning in January.

Initially, the cards carried by prisoners on parole or mandatory release will be regular state identification cards.

State News - Lubbock Online.com Parolees to be required to carry IDs

Requiring a group to carry ID.

Even though it is a Constitutional right to bear arms, you still need a permit (with ID) to carry.


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## blu (Apr 20, 2010)

chanel said:


> I don't know anyone who doesn't varry I.D. Even teens without licenses generally have a school tag or a library card, why would anyone leave their wallet at home? Ever?



because why do you need one at all times except for laws like this?


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## chanel (Apr 20, 2010)

Driving Shopping Cigs Alcohol etc. I'm just talking practical blu. Who leaves the house without a wallet? Unless..


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## Darkwind (Apr 20, 2010)

blu said:


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You still don't.  Even with this law, if you get picked up, you need only provide proof of who you are.  A quick phone call to a relative or friend or even a boss will quickly have you on your way.

Of course, if you don't belong here.........


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## xsited1 (Apr 20, 2010)

blu said:


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This is wrong.  Making and enforcing immigration law is a federal responsibility.  Unfortunately, the federal government has dropped the ball which is the reason for this bill.  It doesn't make it right, however.  I wish Congress would pass a comprehensive immigration reform bill rather than more entitlement programs.


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## bodecea (Apr 20, 2010)

Lonestar_logic said:


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When was this a legal requirement?


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## George Costanza (Apr 20, 2010)

Lonestar_logic said:


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Have you ever heard of the 4th Amendment?  Have you ever heard of the requirement of probable cause to arrest someone?

This Arizona law, as I understand it, gives police the power to detain someone they merely _suspect_ of being in the country illegally.  So it a person "looks like" an illegal immigrant to a police officer, they have the right to stop them and search them for "proof of citizenship."

Suppose a Hispanic person who is an American citizen, is walking down a street in an Arizona town and some cop "thinks" he "looks like an illegal immigrant."  He isn't.  He's an American citizen.  Never mind.  Stop, detain and search.

Suppose the police find some form of contraband or a weapon in the guy's pocket.  Do you think for a second they are going to say, "Oh, well, never mind.  I see that you are a U.S. citizen, so you are free to go"?  Of course not.  The person will be arrested - as a consequence of what clearly would have been an illegal detention and search, but for this new law.

I have no problem at all with arresting people for breaking the law, provided the police have probable cause to believe the law has been broken.  I have a HUGE problem with arresting people without any probable cause whatsoever.


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## rdean (Apr 20, 2010)

They are stopping white people too, right?


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## George Costanza (Apr 20, 2010)

So many of you are overlooking the real danger of a law such as this.

Police LOVE laws that extend their power to avoid the 4th Amendment, and well-meaning legislatures fall right into their hands every time.  The issue here isn't stopping illegal aliens.  The issue is stopping _regular citizens_ who might _appear_ to be illegal aliens but who are not, and then arresting them for whatever the cops happen to find on their persons or in their cars.

In a scenario such as this, the police would have NO probable cause to stop anyone, but for the particular law that gives them that right - in this case, the Arizona "stop and check" law for illegals.  In other cases, DUI "checkpoints."  Of course, once the person has been detained legally, all bets are off.  Police are under no obligation to ignore contraband they observe incidentally while detaining someone for another purpose.

A law such as this one is just one more step toward a true police state - something that is to be avoided at all costs.


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## Oscar Wao (Apr 20, 2010)

bodecea said:


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I'll take that for $1000, Alex...

In historical European dictatorships in the 1900s?


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## Oscar Wao (Apr 20, 2010)

George Costanza said:


> So many of you are overlooking the real danger of a law such as this.
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> Police LOVE laws that extend their power to avoid the 4th Amendment, and well-meaning legislatures fall right into their hands every time. The issue here isn't stopping illegal aliens. The issue is stopping _regular citizens_ who might _appear_ to be illegal aliens but who are not, and then arresting them for whatever the cops happen to find on their persons or in their cars.
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Exactly.

It's not to stop illegals, even though that's its intention.  Remember, you never base your beliefs on "intention," ESPECIALLY good intention.

It gives the police another orgasm to exercise the power that turns them on.


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## George Costanza (Apr 20, 2010)

Oscar Wao said:


> George Costanza said:
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Of course the law is designed to stop illegal aliens.  The problem is, that it also impacts innocents as well as the guilty.  Don't you see that?  It's the same thing as a DUI checkpoint.  A totally sober person gets stopped in a DUI checkpoint.  He'd better not have anything he's not supposed to have in plain view in his car.  

Something like that doesn't bother you?

Oh, wait a minute, I know - don't do anything wrong and you won't have anything to worry about.  Right . . .


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## Xenophon (Apr 20, 2010)

blu said:


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They are forced to do the job the feds have punted on.


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## EriktheRed (Apr 20, 2010)

I know of another country that (thankfully) isn't around anymore that used to make people have their "papers" on them at all times.


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## Rozman (Apr 20, 2010)

I like the Libs attitude,they as always care more about those outside the law then the ones who abide by it.
They want to make sure that the illegals in this country are protected...How dare we do something to protect ourselves.If those that get stopped and questioned have documentation they go on their way,if they don't then they will be dealt with accordingly...So far I don't have a problem with any of this.


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## Political Junky (Apr 20, 2010)

I recall teabaggers being outraged at information given on the census, and encouraging people to throw the forms away. 
Michele Bachmann said it would cause us to be sent to camps. Has she spoken out against this yet?


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## blu (Apr 20, 2010)

Rozman said:


> I like the Libs attitude,they as always care more about those outside the law then the ones who abide by it.
> They want to make sure that the illegals in this country are protected...How dare we do something to protect ourselves.If those that get stopped and questioned have documentation they go on their way,if they don't then they will be dealt with accordingly...So far I don't have a problem with any of this.



and what about the american citizens who don't carry around paperwork and happen to be mexican or look something like it? what about the cop having a bad day who decides to take that out on the mexican without paperwork?


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 20, 2010)

Rozman is full of crap.

This is an issue every conservative and libertarian in America who loves freedom and liberty should be opposing.  I am amazed we have to have the liberals screaming about this instead of us.

Do you so-called cons really place politics above freedom and liberty?


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## SFC Ollie (Apr 20, 2010)

The thing that most seem to be overlooking is that it is now a State which has taken it upon themselves to do the Countries job.

If the idiots in Washington would simply close the border then AZ would not have the problem it has with illegals and wouldn't need this type of law.

I applaud them for it. Someone has to step up and enforce the law.


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 20, 2010)

The feds will stop them, Ollie, simple as that.  I do agree with you that we should shut the border down, period.  But business (the GOP) and special indentity politics (the Dems) will not permit it.


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## blu (Apr 20, 2010)

SFC Ollie said:


> The thing that most seem to be overlooking is that it is now a State which has taken it upon themselves to do the Countries job.
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> If the idiots in Washington would simply close the border then AZ would not have the problem it has with illegals and wouldn't need this type of law.
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> I applaud them for it. Someone has to step up and enforce the law.



I don't agree with AZ's choice of tactic, but I do agree that the federal government is fucking up the situation by not responding to it. They really need to figure it out one or the other and then after its sorted enforce whatever law is agreed upon


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## boedicca (Apr 20, 2010)

blu said:


> FOXNews.com - Arizona Immigration Enforcement Bill Stirs National Debate
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Oh.The.Horror.....Not


_The bill contains several provisions. Among them, it would create a new state misdemeanor crime for failing to carry alien registration documents; allow officers to arrest immigrants unable to show documents proving their legal residence; allow people to sue if they feel a government agency has adopted a policy that hinders immigration enforcement; prohibit people from blocking traffic when they seek or offer day labor services on street corners; and make it illegal for people to knowingly transport illegal immigrants. _

It basically calls for the state to enforce immigration laws.

Fine by me.


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 20, 2010)

Fine, uppity water nymph, but the feds will put an end to it immediately.


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## Avatar4321 (Apr 20, 2010)

Well this law, if passed, needs to be repealed immediately. It's blatantly unconstitutional.


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## Avatar4321 (Apr 20, 2010)

blu said:


> I don't agree with AZ's choice of tactic, but I do agree that the federal government is fucking up the situation by not responding to it. They really need to figure it out one or the other and then after its sorted enforce whatever law is agreed upon



They won't do it though. Too many special interests on both sides of the isle blocking enforcement.


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## Oscar Wao (Apr 20, 2010)

George Costanza said:


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Yup...otherwise you are supporting the terrorists! 

(We're playing a game of sarcasm, yes?)


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## chanel (Apr 20, 2010)

I don't think it I going to last long. Too many ambulance chasers salivating over the profiling suits. Extreme measures are needed, but I don't think this will fly. Cut off the jobs and entitlements and they may run right home. There's got to be a legal way to do that right?


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## SFC Ollie (Apr 20, 2010)

chanel said:


> I don't think it I going to last long. Too many ambulance chasers salivating over the profiling suits. Extreme measures are needed, but I don't think this will fly. Cut off the jobs and entitlements and they may run right home. There's got to be a legal way to do that right?



The problem is channel that they are not staying in AZ. That is simply a port of entry. A few months back they busted 20 of them in Southern Ohio. And of course told them to show up in court in 4 days.........


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## Lost Soul (Apr 20, 2010)

George Costanza said:


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When did illegals get the same rights as citizens of America? They are breaking the laws WE set in place for Americans to follow yet you liberals support illegals breaking the same laws we must live by then whine and cry when we arrest them.

Now the Drug Cartel are using illegals to grow and sell drugs to US children and you nasty sorry excuse for Americans want to give them rights the same as America citizens.

But why should we surprised, you are the same group of idiots that want to give terrorists rights.


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## George Costanza (Apr 20, 2010)

Lost Soul said:


> When did illegals get the same rights as citizens of America?



Ever since we have had our federal Constitution.  Keep in mind, the context of this discussion is illegal search and seizure, i.e., criminal law.  Any person, citizen or not, legal or illegal alien, who is arrested and/or charged with a crime, has the full protection of the Bill of Rights and all other applicable portions of the Constitution.

I represent illegal aliens in a criminal court every day.  Believe me, they are afforded exactly the same rights as citizens - right to counsel, speedy trial, etc.  They are also just as immune from illegal search and seizure as are regular citizens.



Lost Soul said:


> They are breaking the laws WE set in place for Americans to follow yet you liberals support illegals breaking the same laws we must live by then whine and cry when we arrest them.



You don't mean that, so don't even say it.  You know damn well that "us liberals" do NOT support illegals breaking the law.  I don't have the slightest problem with arresting people who are breaking the law, prosecuting them and putting them in prison (or deporting them) if they are convicted - very much including illegal aliens.

But the police have to have some reasonable belief that a person is committing a crime before they can arrest him.  They can't go around just arresting people for no reason at all and then check to see if a crime has been committed - you do see that, don't you?

THAT's what "us liberals" object to - and so should you, if you had one iota of intelligence.  



Lost Soul said:


> Now the Drug Cartel are using illegals to grow and sell drugs to US children and you nasty sorry excuse for Americans want to give them rights the same as America citizens.
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> But why should we surprised, you are the same group of idiots that want to give terrorists rights.



This one I won't even dignify with a response.


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## Avatar4321 (Apr 20, 2010)

I have no problem if when someone is under arrest, the authorities check their immigration status as part of procedure of arrest.

But i do have a problem with authorities simply walking up to people, demanding papers, and arresting them if they don't produce.


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## Lonestar_logic (Apr 21, 2010)

bodecea said:


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It will be when the bill passes.


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## Nosmo King (Apr 21, 2010)

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Thus the argument for racial profiling.  And the minority community has nothing to fear but police harassment.  Just an inconvenience, doncha know.


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## Lonestar_logic (Apr 21, 2010)

George Costanza said:


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Yes I understand the 4th amendment and if you look like an illegal wetback then that's probable cause to stop you and ask for ID. If you have no ID then you will be detained until it can be determined your legal status. 

There's a lot of supposition in your little rant, but let's suppose the man the cop stopped was wanted in connection with a murder, rape or child molestation then would it be ok?

No one will be arrested for NOT having an ID, but they will be detained until their legal status can be determined. Why wouldn't you want law enforcement to do their job to arrest and deport people that are here illegally?


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## Lonestar_logic (Apr 21, 2010)

Political Junky said:


> I recall teabaggers being outraged at information given on the census, and encouraging people to throw the forms away.
> Michele Bachmann said it would cause us to be sent to camps. Has she spoken out against this yet?



Apples and oranges dumbass!!

The census is required by the U.S. Constitution and it's only purpose is to count the people if the United States to determine the number of members of the U.S. House of Representatives from each state. 

The data gathered by the U.S. Census Bureau are used by the states to draw boundaries for congressional and state legislative districts, and by local governments to establish districts for other representative bodies such as county legislatures, city councils, and boards of supervisors.


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## Lonestar_logic (Apr 21, 2010)

blu said:


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Paperwork? All they need is an ID. How many people do you know that looks like a wetback who doesn't carry any form of ID around with them?


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## Lonestar_logic (Apr 21, 2010)

JakeStarkey said:


> The feds will stop them, Ollie, simple as that.  I do agree with you that we should shut the border down, period.  But business (the GOP) and special indentity politics (the Dems) will not permit it.



The feds can't stop them.


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## Lonestar_logic (Apr 21, 2010)

Nosmo King said:


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I don't have a problem with racial profiling as long as it keep illegal wetbacks out of the country.  So a police asking you for ID is harrassment?


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## nraforlife (Apr 21, 2010)

blu said:


> ......................so glad the small government conservatives of the republican party are working to preserve people's freedom





That they are friend- the freedom of REAL Americans to not be overrun by criminal border crossers.


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## GilbertArizona (Apr 21, 2010)

The problem is not so much the need to carry an ID, but rather past problems we've had in this state of Hispanic drivers being pulled over by police simply for being Hispanic.  Hispanics I know are all for illegal immigrants being kicked out of the country.  The problem is treating any group of American citizens as 2nd class citizens.  

Our governor Jan Brewer is facing a tough choice on this one. Somos Republicans, a grass-roots group working to register more Latino Republicans, sent an e-mail to Brewer on Monday, telling her that if she supports the bill, they will request that she "leave the Republican Party."   With the recent killing of a rancher in southern Arizona I think she'll face difficulty if she vetos the bill.  Truthfully, I haven't seen for myself what "broad powers" the bill is taking about. Thus I'll support the governor no matter how she decides.


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## bodecea (Apr 21, 2010)

George Costanza said:


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This is a massive extention of the "I pulled you over for a busted tail light" gambit.


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## bodecea (Apr 21, 2010)

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And what happens if you don't have your ID on you?


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## Gunny (Apr 21, 2010)

blu said:


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Your thread title is a blatant lie.  Illegal immigration has undermined our social infrastructure and economy.  

Illegal immigrants are criminals the second they cross the border.  Law enforcement in this nation is not responsible for protecting the freedom of criminals.  Matter of fact, we keep our criminals in cages, don't we?

This is nothing but fear-mongering.


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## saveliberty (Apr 21, 2010)

GilbertArizona said:


> The problem is not so much the need to carry an ID, but rather past problems we've had in this state of Hispanic drivers being pulled over by police simply for being Hispanic.  Hispanics I know are all for illegal immigrants being kicked out of the country.  The problem is treating any group of American citizens as 2nd class citizens.
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> Our governor Jan Brewer is facing a tough choice on this one. Somos Republicans, a grass-roots group working to register more Latino Republicans, sent an e-mail to Brewer on Monday, telling her that if she supports the bill, they will request that she "leave the Republican Party."   With the recent killing of a rancher in southern Arizona I think she'll face difficulty if she vetos the bill.  Truthfully, I haven't seen for myself what "broad powers" the bill is taking about. Thus I'll support the governor no matter how she decides.



Let's see...large shipments of drugs across the border by Japanese gangs?  Ah, no, that would be Mexican gangs.  Canadians shooting each other by the dozen every week?  Hmm...that would semm to be Mexicans.  Getting many illegal Europeans entering across the Mexican border?  Gee, why would be think a Mexican might be doing anything wrong?  Use your brain.


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 21, 2010)

Lonestar_logic said:


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Think not?  Try, but make sure you have you bail bondsman and attorney on speed dial.


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 21, 2010)

Gunny said:


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You are off the reservation, gunny.  Police state tactics are unacceptable in our Republic.  Enforce the border security, and the issue will go away.


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## WillowTree (Apr 21, 2010)

blu said:


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we have to have legitimite ID why shouldn't our visitors?? name one country on earth that doesn't require "papers"? then sit down and stfu for once.


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## WillowTree (Apr 21, 2010)

bodecea said:


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If you ask nicely they'll let your sorry azz go home and get them.. DUmmie


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## Truthmatters (Apr 21, 2010)

Everyone who travels to Arizona will have to carry citizenship papers.

Where in the fucking world did that ever happen, Hitler germany comes to mind


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 21, 2010)

The libertarians and reactionaries are defending the need for "papers"?  Pure hypocritical politicalism of a true national issue.  Sorry lozers.


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## Dont Taz Me Bro (Apr 21, 2010)

chanel said:


> I don't know anyone who doesn't varry I.D. Even teens without licenses generally have a school tag or a library card, why would anyone leave their wallet at home? Ever?



You are not required to carry your ID on you and you can't be compelled to show it without probable cause.  If I was walking down the street and a cop just randomly approached me and asked me for my ID I don't have to legally show it to him.


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## SFC Ollie (Apr 21, 2010)

Truthmatters said:


> Everyone who travels to Arizona will have to carry citizenship papers.
> 
> Where in the fucking world did that ever happen, Hitler germany comes to mind



Just your standard State issued ID card is more than sufficient. If you happen to do something illegal and get stopped.

SB1070 - 492R - Senate Fact Sheet

1.      Requires a reasonable attempt to be made to determine the immigration status of a person during any legitimate contact made by an official or agency of the state or a county, city, town or political subdivision (political subdivision) if reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the U.S.


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## Dont Taz Me Bro (Apr 21, 2010)

blu said:


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They are approaching this entirely the wrong way.  I agree that Arizona needs to crack down on illegal immigration because it's a big problem there, but they can do that by going after the employers who knowingly hire illegal labor and throwing them in jail and shutting their business down.  They can also check for proof of citizenship when people apply for welfare benefits.  When the jobs and free money dry up the illegals will leave on their own accord.

My understanding, and I could be wrong, is that under this bill the cops have the right to stop anybody and require proof of citizenship just because they suspect they could possibly be here illegally.  Well, how do you determine that?  By race?  Is a 30 year old born and raised American man with Hispanic heritage going to get pulled over and asked for his ID just because he looks Mexican?  That's unacceptable and it's a violation of civil rights.


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## Truthmatters (Apr 21, 2010)

JakeStarkey said:


> The libertarians and reactionaries are defending the need for "papers"?  Pure hypocritical politicalism of a true national issue.  Sorry lozers.



all worried about salt and willing to carry papers like in Nazi Germany?

its just soo fucked up


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## Dont Taz Me Bro (Apr 21, 2010)

JakeStarkey said:


> The libertarians and reactionaries are defending the need for "papers"?  Pure hypocritical politicalism of a true national issue.  Sorry lozers.



I beg your pardon. Conservatives may be defending this, but libertarians are doing no such thing.


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## Gatekeeper (Apr 21, 2010)

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I for one of many, I am sure, have carried an I.D. since I was first issued a SS#, then after that, a drivers license, then the military. I have NEVER gone anywhere to my recollection without some I.D. In fact I don't know any, except for those who have, forgotten their wallet or _maybe_ have something to hide, that would not carry any I.D. and for a few other reasons than just 'proving' your an American citizen.

With the world situation today and the threats to our security,* I want to know who is here legally and who is not!*


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## Dont Taz Me Bro (Apr 21, 2010)

Gatekeeper said:


> I for one of many, I am sure, have carried an I.D. since I was first issued a SS#, then after that, a drivers license, then the military. I have NEVER gone anywhere to my recollection without some I.D. In fact I don't know any, except for those who have, forgotten their wallet or _maybe_ have something to hide, that would not carry any I.D. and for a few other reasons than just 'proving' your an American citizen.
> 
> With the world situation today and the threats to our security,* I want to know who is here legally and who is not!*



The Founding Fathers faced far more dangerous times than we do and if Ben Franklin were alive today I doubt he'd share your opinion.  In his own words:

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."


----------



## Lonestar_logic (Apr 21, 2010)

bodecea said:


> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> > Nosmo King said:
> ...



You're subject to be detained.


----------



## Lonestar_logic (Apr 21, 2010)

JakeStarkey said:


> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> > JakeStarkey said:
> ...



I own a bail bonds company. But why should I need a bondsman or an attorney? I haven't broke any laws.


----------



## Truthmatters (Apr 21, 2010)

They are supposed to heave you in jail if you dont have your papers.

Just like in nazi occupied europe


----------



## Lonestar_logic (Apr 21, 2010)

Truthmatters said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > The libertarians and reactionaries are defending the need for "papers"?  Pure hypocritical politicalism of a true national issue.  Sorry lozers.
> ...



Well some of us care who's coming into our country and whether or not they have a legal right to be here. Some of us respect the rule of law.


----------



## Lonestar_logic (Apr 21, 2010)

Truthmatters said:


> They are supposed to heave you in jail if you dont have your papers.
> 
> Just like in nazi occupied europe



Prove that they will throw you in jail for not having an ID.


----------



## Xenophon (Apr 21, 2010)

Truthmatters said:


> They are supposed to heave you in jail if you dont have your papers.
> 
> Just like in nazi occupied europe


And the current EU.

All socialist nations requite ID be shown.


----------



## WillowTree (Apr 21, 2010)

JakeStarkey said:


> Fine, uppity water nymph, but the feds will put an end to it immediately.



oh so the feds have time to get Arizona back in line but they won't address the drugs and murders and kidnappings by the illegals in border towns?? what duz that tell ya?


----------



## WillowTree (Apr 21, 2010)

Truthmatters said:


> Everyone who travels to Arizona will have to carry citizenship papers.
> 
> Where in the fucking world did that ever happen, Hitler germany comes to mind



well, then just stay out of Arizona.


----------



## Lonestar_logic (Apr 21, 2010)

WillowTree said:


> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> > Everyone who travels to Arizona will have to carry citizenship papers.
> ...



And stay out of Texas as well.


----------



## Gatekeeper (Apr 21, 2010)

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


> Gatekeeper said:
> 
> 
> > I for one of many, I am sure, have carried an I.D. since I was first issued a SS#, then after that, a drivers license, then the military. I have NEVER gone anywhere to my recollection without some I.D. In fact I don't know any, except for those who have, forgotten their wallet or _maybe_ have something to hide, that would not carry any I.D. and for a few other reasons than just 'proving' your an American citizen.
> ...



 With all due respect Bro, let me re-read good ole Ben's words again:

* "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."* quote Ben Franklin

Okay, I guess Ben's,blanket statement from the* 1700's*, means you and I have to, when someone knocks on or just open our doors and walk into our 'homes' we have to respect THEIR liberty as well as ours, and let them have free roam throughout our house without knowing who they are?

*I DON'T THINK SO* 

Sorry, with all due respect to Ben Franklin, we HAVE to know who is in 'OUR HOUSE'. This isn't just about the *illegal aliens *such as Mexicans,Brazilians and others who are just trying to make money and have no 'evil plans' etc, it is also about Terrorists and others who are here to destroy our way of life.

Don't come into our country, the land of the FREE, so far anyway, and the first thing you do is violate the law of the land. The* illegals *for the most part, don't respect our laws or our people and snub their noses at law enforcement.


----------



## Gunny (Apr 21, 2010)

JakeStarkey said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> > blu said:
> ...



Wrong.  There are no police state tactics here.  Much adieu about nothing.

I'm all for enforcing the border.  Your brethren lefties consider that police state tactics too.  

Illegal aliens are criminals.  We hunt down criminals and throw them in jail for committing crimes.


----------



## Gunny (Apr 21, 2010)

Truthmatters said:


> Everyone who travels to Arizona will have to carry citizenship papers.
> 
> Where in the fucking world did that ever happen, Hitler germany comes to mind



The fascist you helped put in the Office of the President of the United States has already covered that "Hitler's Germany" thing nicely.


----------



## Xenophon (Apr 21, 2010)

Gunny said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > Gunny said:
> ...


Fascist!


----------



## Gunny (Apr 21, 2010)

JakeStarkey said:


> The libertarians and reactionaries are defending the need for "papers"?  Pure hypocritical politicalism of a true national issue.  Sorry lozers.



Nope.  We all have to have ID.  We have to have Social Security cards to work and driver's licenses to drive, and photo ID's to buy alcohol, and/or tobacco or have a bank account or get a job.

Your argument doesn't wash.


----------



## Gunny (Apr 21, 2010)

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


> chanel said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know anyone who doesn't varry I.D. Even teens without licenses generally have a school tag or a library card, why would anyone leave their wallet at home? Ever?
> ...



Try again.


----------



## Gunny (Apr 21, 2010)

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


> blu said:
> 
> 
> > FOXNews.com - Arizona Immigration Enforcement Bill Stirs National Debate
> ...



Typical leftwing answer.  They need to do BOTH.  They need to hammer employers AND crack down on illegals.

They're BOTH criminals.  Get it?


----------



## Gunny (Apr 21, 2010)

Truthmatters said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > The libertarians and reactionaries are defending the need for "papers"?  Pure hypocritical politicalism of a true national issue.  Sorry lozers.
> ...



Speaking of reactionaries ... I think Jake was talking about YOU.


----------



## Gunny (Apr 21, 2010)

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > The libertarians and reactionaries are defending the need for "papers"?  Pure hypocritical politicalism of a true national issue.  Sorry lozers.
> ...



Wrong again.


----------



## Vast LWC (Apr 21, 2010)

Gunny said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > The libertarians and reactionaries are defending the need for "papers"?  Pure hypocritical politicalism of a true national issue.  Sorry lozers.
> ...



Ah, but the problem here Gunny, is this makes it a *crime* to not have your ID on your person.  They can literally throw you in jail if you don't have your "papers".

That is most certainly a "police state" action, quite reminiscent of Stalin's USSR or Nazi Germany.


----------



## Gunny (Apr 21, 2010)

Xenophon said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> > JakeStarkey said:
> ...



No ... I'm an axe murderer .....


----------



## SFC Ollie (Apr 21, 2010)

Vast LWC said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> > JakeStarkey said:
> ...



And what happens if you get pulled over for speeding and do not have your ID (Drivers license)? In any state........


----------



## Gunny (Apr 21, 2010)

Vast LWC said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> > JakeStarkey said:
> ...



No it doesn't.  It says you may be detained until identity is established.  The crime is illegal immigration; which, is a crime and has been.  

Nothing police state about that.  Carry your ID.  I've been carrying one for 40 years.  This is a case of the left feigning and sensationalizing a lot about nothing.


----------



## George Costanza (Apr 21, 2010)

Gunny said:


> Vast LWC said:
> 
> 
> > Gunny said:
> ...



On this narrow point, I have to agree with Gunny here.  

There are other issues which make this an objectionable law, but I'm afraid that the detention part of it passes Constitutional muster, as does the requirement of being able to show some ID.


----------



## saveliberty (Apr 21, 2010)

Vast LWC said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> > JakeStarkey said:
> ...



Where is your ID when you leave the house Vast?


----------



## Lonestar_logic (Apr 21, 2010)

Probably up his ass, where all his ideas originate.


----------



## Vast LWC (Apr 21, 2010)

saveliberty said:


> Where is your ID when you leave the house Vast?



Depends on what I'm wearing or where I'm going.

If I'm taking my son to the park or the beach near my house, I may in fact often leave home without it.

But hell, that's not even the point.  What if I want to go hiking in some nearby woods and I forget my ID.  That's a crime???

There's no excuse for this.


----------



## Vast LWC (Apr 21, 2010)

Lonestar_logic said:


> Probably up his ass, where all his ideas originate.



You're seriously defending this?

Aren't you supposed to be a Libertarian?


----------



## saveliberty (Apr 21, 2010)

Vast LWC said:


> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> > Where is your ID when you leave the house Vast?
> ...



So...85% or the time your ID is in your wallet in your right rear pocket.  If you were stopped, you would properly identify yourself and the police would verify your identity in a couple of minutes.  You are on your way.  Why are you giving illegal folks a break?


----------



## Gunny (Apr 21, 2010)

Vast LWC said:


> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> > Where is your ID when you leave the house Vast?
> ...



Whatever.

The idiot you put in office is the biggest fascist in this nation; yet, you want o cry about civil liberties?


----------



## Vast LWC (Apr 21, 2010)

saveliberty said:


> So...85% or the time your ID is in your wallet in your right rear pocket.  If you were stopped, you would properly identify yourself and the police would verify your identity in a couple of minutes.  You are on your way.  Why are you giving illegal folks a break?



Because 15% of the time I don't have my wallet.

And if I happened to be of Hispanic decent in the area in question, I would be detained and arrested.


----------



## Gunny (Apr 21, 2010)

Vast LWC said:


> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> > Probably up his ass, where all his ideas originate.
> ...



I am, and I have no problem with it.  if we have a National government that is supposed to be responsible for the  sovereignty of our borders, then they should at LEAST do THAT instead of spending it's time taking over private sector industries.


----------



## Gunny (Apr 21, 2010)

Vast LWC said:


> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> > So...85% or the time your ID is in your wallet in your right rear pocket.  If you were stopped, you would properly identify yourself and the police would verify your identity in a couple of minutes.  You are on your way.  Why are you giving illegal folks a break?
> ...



Personal accountability.


----------



## Vast LWC (Apr 21, 2010)

Gunny said:


> Whatever.
> 
> The idiot you put in office is the biggest fascist in this nation; yet, you want o cry about civil liberties?



What specific personal civil liberties of yours have been abridged by the Obama administration, besides the "right" to scam everyone by going without medical insurance?


----------



## Vast LWC (Apr 21, 2010)

Gunny said:


> Vast LWC said:
> 
> 
> > Lonestar_logic said:
> ...



So... you do of course realize that in making this statement you are proving several derogatory stereotypes concerning modern Libertarians, right?

Specifically the ones that state that modern Libertarians only stand up for "personal freedom" when religion, guns or corporations are concerned, but could care less about any other situation.


----------



## saveliberty (Apr 21, 2010)

Vast LWC said:


> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> > So...85% or the time your ID is in your wallet in your right rear pocket.  If you were stopped, you would properly identify yourself and the police would verify your identity in a couple of minutes.  You are on your way.  Why are you giving illegal folks a break?
> ...



So...for your personal convenience, this law should be repealed, in a state you don't even live in.  Further, it could save someone's life from a dangerous illegal immigrant, by catching them and deporting them.  Seems a little selfish too me.


----------



## chanel (Apr 21, 2010)

I just can't seem to picture too many young men hiking in the "woods of AZ" with their kid and no without I.D Did they walk to this outing? Do they have many police patrolling these woods looking for law abiding Americans on hiking trips? Lost me there...


----------



## Lonestar_logic (Apr 21, 2010)

Vast LWC said:


> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> > Probably up his ass, where all his ideas originate.
> ...



If I must have a label then label me a conservative.


----------



## Lonestar_logic (Apr 21, 2010)

Vast LWC said:


> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> > So...85% or the time your ID is in your wallet in your right rear pocket.  If you were stopped, you would properly identify yourself and the police would verify your identity in a couple of minutes.  You are on your way.  Why are you giving illegal folks a break?
> ...



Detained? Probably until you can be indentified. Arrested? Depends on if you have outstanding warrants out.  You will not be arrested for not having proper ID, unless you're driving an automobile then, well, then you should be arrested because you're violating the law.


----------



## Vast LWC (Apr 21, 2010)

Lonestar_logic said:


> Detained? Probably until you can be indentified. Arrested? Depends on if you have outstanding warrants out.  You will not be arrested for not having proper ID, unless you're driving an automobile then, well, then you should be arrested because you're violating the law.



Yes you will, the law we are talking about made it a crime to not be carrying identification.


----------



## CMike (Apr 21, 2010)

Vast LWC said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> > Whatever.
> ...



Scam everyone? The right to decide how I will pay for my healthcare.


----------



## SFC Ollie (Apr 21, 2010)

Vast LWC said:


> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> > Detained? Probably until you can be indentified. Arrested? Depends on if you have outstanding warrants out.  You will not be arrested for not having proper ID, unless you're driving an automobile then, well, then you should be arrested because you're violating the law.
> ...



Not exactly.

11.  Specifies that, in addition to any violation of federal law, a person is guilty of trespassing if the person is:

a)      present on any public or private land in the state and

b)      is not carrying his or her alien registration card or has willfully failed to register.

SB1070 - 492R - Senate Fact Sheet


----------



## Lonestar_logic (Apr 21, 2010)

Vast LWC said:


> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> > Detained? Probably until you can be indentified. Arrested? Depends on if you have outstanding warrants out.  You will not be arrested for not having proper ID, unless you're driving an automobile then, well, then you should be arrested because you're violating the law.
> ...



Source?


----------



## Gatekeeper (Apr 21, 2010)

Gunny said:


> Vast LWC said:
> 
> 
> > Gunny said:
> ...



GUNNY,  Your facing off again with opponents those who's 'ammo belts' are empty?


----------



## Zoom-boing (Apr 21, 2010)

blu said:


> FOXNews.com - Arizona Immigration Enforcement Bill Stirs National Debate
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I fail to see how this is a problem.  Police charging/arresting people who are in the country illegally.  _Illegally_.  Hmmmm, that would mean they were breaking the law, yes?  Why shouldn't they be card checked and arrested if they're breaking the law?


----------



## Nosmo King (Apr 21, 2010)

Lonestar_logic said:


> bodecea said:
> 
> 
> > Lonestar_logic said:
> ...


Suppose one was blond and blue eyed.  Would they still get asked by the cops to show ID?  There are illegal immigrants from Scandinavia too.

Or is this little bit of totalitarianism used exclusively for Latinos?

Anything to erode liberty!  That's the Conservative way!


----------



## Lonestar_logic (Apr 21, 2010)

Nosmo King said:


> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> > bodecea said:
> ...



Suppose a frog had wings, would it bump it's ass on the ground when it hopped?

I'm pretty sure in this case it would be exclusive to those that looked as if they may be here illegally. I personally can tell in under a minute if a person is here legally or not and I wouldn't need to ask for an ID.  

How is enforcing the law eroding liberty? My liberty isn't affected at all. The liberty of those that are here illegally would certainly be affected.


----------



## Vast LWC (Apr 21, 2010)

SFC Ollie said:


> Not exactly.
> 
> 11.  Specifies that, in addition to any violation of federal law, a person is guilty of trespassing if the person is:
> 
> ...



Which means that any person who resembles an illegal alien, in other words most of the sizable Hispanic population of the state and anyone else that has darker skin and an accent, will be arrested if they don't have ID on them.


----------



## Lonestar_logic (Apr 21, 2010)

Vast LWC said:


> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> > Not exactly.
> ...



Yes if you're an illegal alien and you do not have valid ID your ass will be arrested and deported. If you are a citizen of the United States of America and you do not have proper ID, you will detained until your legal status can be determined. Which would take me about two minutes to determine. 

Answer me this, what state do you currently reside in and have you ever lived in a southern border state?


----------



## Vast LWC (Apr 21, 2010)

Lonestar_logic said:


> Yes if you're an illegal alien and you do not have valid ID your ass will be arrested and deported. If you are a citizen of the United States of America and you do not have proper ID, you will detained until your legal status can be determined. Which would take me about two minutes to determine.
> 
> Answer me this, what state do you currently reside in and have you ever lived in a southern border state?



I'm sorry, but how is "detained" different from "arrested", besides the legal mumbo-jumbo?

I live just outside the New York City limits, and though I have not lived in a southern border state, there are a hell of a lot of illegals here, so I know just what you're going through.

There's about 100 of them that line up in the morning outside the local grocery store to find day labor.


----------



## WillowTree (Apr 21, 2010)

The government and or the democrats should put up or shut the fuck up. Arizona has huge problems, if they can't be helped by the government then neither should they be hindered.. and quit posing this problem as a "rights" problem. as I have stated Americans have a right to have a country, to be safe from attacks from both foreign and domestic, to be free from being murdered by illegals, to be free from having their ID stolen, to be free from having their labor stolen..; you damn democrats got any ideas on how to help Arizona? If you don't then sit down and stfu.


----------



## WillowTree (Apr 21, 2010)

Vast LWC said:


> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> > Yes if you're an illegal alien and you do not have valid ID your ass will be arrested and deported. If you are a citizen of the United States of America and you do not have proper ID, you will detained until your legal status can be determined. Which would take me about two minutes to determine.
> ...



if you won't help Arizona then get the hell out of their way.


----------



## Gunny (Apr 21, 2010)

Gatekeeper said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> > Vast LWC said:
> ...



Happens to me a lot around here.


----------



## Gunny (Apr 21, 2010)

Nosmo King said:


> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> > bodecea said:
> ...



*yawn*

Yet another one trying to twist this into a racial thing.  Dude, I don't care if you're a one-eyed, one-horned flying purple people eater.  If you're on US soil illegally, you are a criminal who ... wait for it  ... is on US ILLEGALLY.


----------



## Gunny (Apr 21, 2010)

Vast LWC said:


> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> > Not exactly.
> ...



Wrong again.  Illegals don't look like Hispanic Americans.  Guess you just have to be there and know what you're talking about.


----------



## Meister (Apr 21, 2010)

Vast LWC said:


> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> > Not exactly.
> ...



Perhaps if the federal government did their job in protecting our borders, the state wouldn't be in a position that it finds itself now, no?


----------



## Lonestar_logic (Apr 21, 2010)

Vast LWC said:


> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> > Yes if you're an illegal alien and you do not have valid ID your ass will be arrested and deported. If you are a citizen of the United States of America and you do not have proper ID, you will detained until your legal status can be determined. Which would take me about two minutes to determine.
> ...



 detain   /d&#618;t'e&#618;n/
Synonyms:
verb: delay, stop, hold, keep, arrest, withhold, restrain, retain 
detains 3rd person present;   detaining present participle;   detained past tense, past participle
When people such as the police detain someone, they keep them in a place under their control. VERB formal 
The act allows police to detain a suspect for up to 48 hours. V n 
He was arrested and detained for questioning. V n 
To detain someone means to delay them, for example by talking to them. VERB formal 
Thank you. We won't detain you any further. V n 


 arrest   /&#601;r'est/
Synonyms:
verb: stop, apprehend, detain, seize, check, capture, catch 
noun: detention, apprehension, custody, capture, seizure 
arrests plural, 3rd person present;   arresting present participle;   arrested past tense, past participle
If the police arrest you, they take charge of you and take you to a police station, because they believe you may have committed a crime. VERB 
Police arrested five young men in connection with one of the attacks. V n 
The police say seven people were arrested for minor offences. 'be' V-ed + 'for' Also V n 'for' n 
Arrest is also a noun. N-VAR oft 'under' N 
...a substantial reward for information leading to the arrest of the bombers. 
Police chased the fleeing terrorists and later made two arrests. 
Murder squad detectives approached the man and placed him under arrest. 
If something or someone arrests a process, they stop it continuing. VERB formal 
The sufferer may have to make major changes in his or her life to arrest the disease. V n 
The law could arrest the development of good research if applied prematurely. V n 

See the difference between arrested and detained? 

And no you have no idea what I go through or what cattle ranchers on the border go through. Have you ever had your fences cut and your cattle scattered throughtout three counties? Ever had your livestock slaughtered or your camphouse ransacked?

No you have no idea what border ranchers go through or you wouldn't be arguing on the side of the illegals.


----------



## Gunny (Apr 21, 2010)

Vast LWC said:


> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> > Yes if you're an illegal alien and you do not have valid ID your ass will be arrested and deported. If you are a citizen of the United States of America and you do not have proper ID, you will detained until your legal status can be determined. Which would take me about two minutes to determine.
> ...



The point is, you are excusing criminal behavior.  Entering the US illegally is a CRIME.  

How do you think I feel being inconvenienced at DWI checkpoints because lefgtwingnuts like to take LSD and drive?

You're making excuses.  You have no argument.


----------



## Vast LWC (Apr 21, 2010)

Lonestar_logic said:


> detain   /d&#618;t'e&#618;n/
> *Synonyms*:
> verb: delay, stop, hold, keep, *arrest*, withhold, restrain, retain
> detains 3rd person present;   detaining present participle;   detained past tense, past participle
> ...



You do of course realize that the definitions you just supplied list arrest and detain as synonyms of one another, right?


----------



## Vast LWC (Apr 21, 2010)

Gunny said:


> The point is, you are excusing criminal behavior.  Entering the US illegally is a CRIME.
> 
> How do you think I feel being inconvenienced at DWI checkpoints because lefgtwingnuts like to take LSD and drive?
> 
> You're making excuses.  You have no argument.



I'm not excusing anything of the sort.  Personally I could care less about the deportation of the illegal aliens themselves.  They are in fact committing a crime and should be deported.

I am concerned solely with the rights of American Citizens in this case.


----------



## Gunny (Apr 21, 2010)

Vast LWC said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> > The point is, you are excusing criminal behavior.  Entering the US illegally is a CRIME.
> ...



US citizens merely need show their ID they're supposed to have anyway and they go their way, same as at a DWI checkpoint which is violating my freedoms because others choose to operate motor vehicles under the influence of drugs or alcohol.

Or being required to produce a social security card and photo ID to obtain a job only to end up on job sites half-manned by illegals who have neither.

You're more than willing to let Big Brother ransack the wallets of those that earn and redistribute those earnings to those that don't; yet, Heaven forbid someone inconvenience you if you can politicize a common sense measure that doesn't even come close to the fascism we have currently at the Federal level.


----------



## JakeStarkey (Apr 21, 2010)

Gunny said:


> Vast LWC said:
> 
> 
> > SFC Ollie said:
> ...



Gunny, you are not stupid, so stop sounding as if you are.  (1) Arizona will not be allowed to enforce the law, and (2) shut the border.  Now that was not hard.


----------



## blu (Apr 21, 2010)

Gunny said:


> Vast LWC said:
> 
> 
> > Gunny said:
> ...



there is no requirement to have ID


----------



## JakeStarkey (Apr 21, 2010)

blu said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> > Vast LWC said:
> ...



Permits and licenses, yes.  IDs about citizenship, no.  A requirement for such is an assault on all our liberties and freedoms.  Any so-called far right conservatives that want this are revealing they are wannabee little fascists.


----------



## NYcarbineer (Apr 21, 2010)

The Constitution suddenly got very flexible to a whole lot of conservatives.


----------



## Gunny (Apr 21, 2010)

JakeStarkey said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> > Vast LWC said:
> ...



Arizona will enforce its laws if Arizona chooses to.  That's not your call. They don't observe MLK Day against a Federally-declared holiday.  Don't assume everyone's got no balls just because some have no balls.

 I already said shut the border, Einstein, so calling me stupid for saying the same thing you are is .... ummm .... stupid?


----------



## Gunny (Apr 21, 2010)

blu said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> > Vast LWC said:
> ...



Depends on what state you live in, doesn't it?  If you have no ID in Texas, you WILL be detained.  It's that simple.

Oh, and that law IS enforced here contrary to the beliefs of some who say the it can't be enforced.


----------



## NYcarbineer (Apr 21, 2010)

saveliberty said:


> Vast LWC said:
> 
> 
> > saveliberty said:
> ...



Why not confiscate all guns if it would 'save someone's life'?  Surely a few lives would be saved, somewhere, somehow, if we ended all private gun ownership.


----------



## Gunny (Apr 21, 2010)

JakeStarkey said:


> blu said:
> 
> 
> > Gunny said:
> ...



Your argument is backwards assed and hypocritical to your argument on government fascist healthcare.


----------



## Gunny (Apr 21, 2010)

NYcarbineer said:


> The Constitution suddenly got very flexible to a whole lot of conservatives.



Pointless ad hominem.


----------



## Gunny (Apr 21, 2010)

NYcarbineer said:


> saveliberty said:
> 
> 
> > Vast LWC said:
> ...



Another pointless ad hominem.


----------



## blu (Apr 21, 2010)

Gunny said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> > saveliberty said:
> ...



I believe you were looking for deflection? ad hominem can only be against a person


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 21, 2010)

Gunny said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
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> > Gunny said:
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You are stupid if you think it is limited to and for the border only.  Research it.  And, no, if the US says AZ won't enforce it, then guess what: it won't be enforced.

You are normally a fairly realistic conservative.  I don't understand why you are so far off the reservation on this one, tonto.


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 21, 2010)

Gunny said:


> blu said:
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Link, please, because I know that it is not true about Texas.


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 21, 2010)

Gunny said:


> JakeStarkey said:
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> > blu said:
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Paying ss and medicare and medicaid taxes are not unconstitutional.  Neither is the health care taxing regulations.  Sorry about that.  Your argument is the one that is wrong way and upside down.  And telling you that you are wrong is not _ad hom_.  You will have to do far, far better than that.


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## blu (Apr 21, 2010)

JakeStarkey said:


> Gunny said:
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I would hope its not true. what freedom that you need a card at all times


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## WillowTree (Apr 21, 2010)

so,, being asked for an idea is inconvenient for libruls huh..


do you show your ID at the airport? or do you refuse?

do you take your shoes off at the airport or do you refuse?


do you walk through a scanner at the airport or do you refuse??


do you prove your age when buying alchohol or do you refuse??


vhen you register to vote in your state to you have to prove citizenship or do you refuse??


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## SFC Ollie (Apr 21, 2010)

JakeStarkey said:


> blu said:
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The only ID about citizenship required is for legal immigrants to have their Green Card. I'm certain that most of us carry a photo ID that shows we are either a citizen or at least here legally.


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## bodecea (Apr 21, 2010)

JakeStarkey said:


> Gunny said:
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I do too...my ex was a Texas police officer and I remember her talking about this years ago how they can't do that.


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## NYcarbineer (Apr 21, 2010)

Gunny said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> > The Constitution suddenly got very flexible to a whole lot of conservatives.
> ...



Well if you can find it in the constitution where the police can demand ID and proof of citizenship from you at any time or any place on the grounds that you look like you're from a foreign country, by all means cite it, and you win.


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## blu (Apr 21, 2010)

NYcarbineer said:


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indeed


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## Nosmo King (Apr 21, 2010)

Lonestar_logic said:


> Nosmo King said:
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The enforcement should be done by the employer, right?  If the employer isn't being forthright, then it's the responsibility of the INS.  The enforcement to the law should be done at the border, right?  

It should not impinge on any law abiding person, be he citizen, immigrant, tourist or business woman.  This sort of enforcement technique has trouble written all over it.

And not the legal precedents and rulings that have slapped this sort of action down before.  The trouble will come from the largest minority in the country; Latinos. 

You are supporting a Jim Crow on the Brown rather than the Black.  Why can't you folks learn from your mistakes?


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## Nosmo King (Apr 21, 2010)

WillowTree said:


> so,, being asked for an idea is inconvenient for libruls huh..
> 
> 
> do you show your ID at the airport? or do you refuse?
> ...


In all those cases, there is an implied contract.  ID at the airport?  Fine.  I realize it's for our safety.

Buying alcohol?  Sure.  I agree to show my ID to prove I can buy a restricted product.

Register to vote?  Absolutely.  No one is calling for the vote for illegals.

But this is stopping people and asking for ID without probable cause.  Anybody can be stopped and asked for papers.  In a land that's known as "Freedom", how can such a thing be fair?


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## SFC Ollie (Apr 21, 2010)

Nosmo King said:


> WillowTree said:
> 
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> > so,, being asked for an idea is inconvenient for libruls huh..
> ...



No one is stopping people without cause. Read the proposed law. It specifically says :

1. Requires a reasonable attempt to be made to determine the immigration status of a person during any legitimate contact made by an official or agency of the state or a county, city, town or political subdivision (political subdivision) if reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the U.S.

SB1070 - 492R - Senate Fact Sheet


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 21, 2010)

WillowTree said:


> so,, being asked for an idea is inconvenient for libruls huh..
> 
> 
> do you show your ID at the airport? or do you refuse?
> ...



Willow, it is the facts that we want, not questions that are not supported without with facts.  No one asks for my citizenship when I have voted in Texas, ever, and I have been voting here for more than thirty years.  And most of the registrars have not know me.


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 21, 2010)

Ollie, that 'probable cause' is going to be challenged very easily.

It won't get that far.  The U.S. is going to tell Arizona "no", Arizona will sue, and SCOTUS will probably tell AZ "no".


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## Meister (Apr 21, 2010)

JakeStarkey said:


> WillowTree said:
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> > so,, being asked for an idea is inconvenient for libruls huh..
> ...



She does bring up some good points along with Gunny's street DUI check points.


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## Meister (Apr 21, 2010)

SFC Ollie said:


> JakeStarkey said:
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> > blu said:
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And if you don't have an ID, they have a right to detain you until the can verify your identification.


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## SFC Ollie (Apr 21, 2010)

Meister said:


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And I cannot find anything wrong with that. the proposed law goes on to authorize the transportation of any illegal to the nearest INS or Federal Police. All the thing does is tell Washington that if they won't enforce the Federal Laws then AZ will do it for them.


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## blu (Apr 21, 2010)

WillowTree said:


> so,, being asked for an idea is inconvenient for libruls huh..
> 
> 
> do you show your ID at the airport? or do you refuse?
> ...



all of your examples have the potential to negatively affect people or some process such as a plane flying safely or having a valid election. walking down the street while looking mexican affects no one.


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## SFC Ollie (Apr 21, 2010)

blu said:


> WillowTree said:
> 
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> > so,, being asked for an idea is inconvenient for libruls huh..
> ...



Do you read the posts? check the links? How many times must I post this?

1. Requires a reasonable attempt to be made to determine the immigration status of a person during any legitimate contact made by an official or agency of the state or a county, city, town or political subdivision (political subdivision) if reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the U.S.

SB1070 - 492R - Senate Fact Sheet


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## blu (Apr 21, 2010)

SFC Ollie said:


> blu said:
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legitimate contacts just like "reasonable suspicion"  I can't see that being abused just to then ask for papers


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## SFC Ollie (Apr 21, 2010)

blu said:


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 21, 2010)

"reasonable contact" is the worm in the apple.

What bugs me is that some true conservatives here, like Ollie and Gunny, do not see that this law threatens citizens.  

I generally do not believe that personal privacy has extensive protection in public.  But the idea of a law enforcement official having the right to ask me for my "papers" invades whatever personal aura of privacy in public a citizen does have.  

My carry permit, my car registration, my dmv license, my realty papers, my professional licenses and certifications - none of these require proof of citizenship/

I will go to Arizona, if it is enforced, with a video crew and a contract with a cable station, defy it when ordered to produces my papers, be arrested, and we will be broadcasting the world.  I bet on the next weekend, there will be 100,000 protestorsl spreading all over the state with their cord cams and their auditors.


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## blu (Apr 21, 2010)

SFC Ollie said:


> blu said:
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in other words, you know what I said is correct and that it will be abused


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## SFC Ollie (Apr 21, 2010)

blu said:


> SFC Ollie said:
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In other words I doubt it will be abused as the State doesn't really have the funds to do these arrests unless they have to. But damn someone needs to enforce the law.


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## Si modo (Apr 21, 2010)

This is a federal jurisdiction.  But, instead of addressing laws already on the books, the federal government, run by Demcrats, is too busy telling all of us what products we NEED to purchace.  Don;t give me this "Republicans working against freedom" crap when the Dems are doing a fine job infringing on MY freedom to live MY life as I see fit.  I don't live in AZ, so I don't care except the fact that AZ thinks they need to do this because the feds won't act.


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## blu (Apr 21, 2010)

Si modo said:


> This is a federal jurisdiction.  But, instead of addressing laws already on the books, the federal government, run by Demcrats, is too busy telling all of us what products we NEED to purchace.  Don;t give me this "Republicans working against freedom" crap when the Dems are doing a fine job infringing on MY freedom to live MY life as I see fit.



are dems and repubs really mutually exclusive here? both are working for it in case you can't read


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## WillowTree (Apr 21, 2010)

Nosmo King said:


> WillowTree said:
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> > so,, being asked for an idea is inconvenient for libruls huh..
> ...



If you read the bill it specifically says ID will be asked for after being stopped for "probable cause."


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## WillowTree (Apr 21, 2010)

Si modo said:


> This is a federal jurisdiction.  But, instead of addressing laws already on the books, the federal government, run by Demcrats, is too busy telling all of us what products we NEED to purchace.  Don;t give me this "Republicans working against freedom" crap when the Dems are doing a fine job infringing on MY freedom to live MY life as I see fit.  I don't live in AZ, so I don't care except the fact that AZ thinks they need to do this because the feds won't act.



Amen Sistah!


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## blu (Apr 21, 2010)

WillowTree said:


> Nosmo King said:
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> > WillowTree said:
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which is already abused and this will just add to it


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## Si modo (Apr 21, 2010)

blu said:


> Si modo said:
> 
> 
> > This is a federal jurisdiction.  But, instead of addressing laws already on the books, the federal government, run by Demcrats, is too busy telling all of us what products we NEED to purchace.  Don;t give me this "Republicans working against freedom" crap when the Dems are doing a fine job infringing on MY freedom to live MY life as I see fit.
> ...


YOU wrote the title, moron.  YOU said Republicans are, once again, stepping on freedom.

You're a partisan hack.


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## blu (Apr 21, 2010)

Si modo said:


> blu said:
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was my title incorrect? are republics not stepping on freedom by doing this? and in case you haven't read my other posts I was also against the democrat freedom stripping moves such as the insurance buying mandate . you were the one who brought up the other party, making me believe you are in fact the hack


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## Si modo (Apr 21, 2010)

blu said:


> Si modo said:
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Really?  What part of my post was inaccurate?  Hacks hate facts.


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## blu (Apr 21, 2010)

Si modo said:


> blu said:
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 where did i say any of your post was inaccurate? all I said is that both parties work to restrict freedoms


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## Si modo (Apr 21, 2010)

blu said:


> Si modo said:
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> > blu said:
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Both parties do.  Although your title doesn't show that at all.  Hmmm.


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## blu (Apr 21, 2010)

Si modo said:


> blu said:
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umm really? this post was about one issue, and in this one issue democrats are for freedom and republicans are against. if you want to make a thread that encompasses all things that both parties are doing to restrict freedom than go ahead.


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## Si modo (Apr 21, 2010)

blu said:


> Si modo said:
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Yes, really.  The title implicates Republicans only.  But, your posts don't so, fair enough.


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## Nosmo King (Apr 22, 2010)

If the statesmen in Arizona pass this law, tens of thousands of Arizonans could be stopped and asked for papers.  Arizonans whose only infraction is being of Latino decent.  If you look Latino, you're subject to this harassment.  

Visiting your daughter at Arizona State?  Don't be named Martinez!  Mind you, if your name is Martin, no problem.  But this law is designed to harass Latinos.

And Latinos are the largest minority in America.

What's next?  Latinos should wear a badge identifying themselves as such?  If a Latino fails to comply, they are subject to arrest and placed in a camp run by Sheriff Arpaio?

Welcome to Arizona!  No Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. holiday and the cradle of the Fourth Reich!


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## Angelhair (Apr 22, 2010)

_The illegal advocates are using scare tactics to try and stop this bill from being signed.  Don't fall for their rhetoric!  AZ is in danger of being taken over by drug cartels and the like.  Politicians are pandering for the vote of those who oppose securing our borders and stopping the flow of illegal entry.
Come here LEGALLY or don't come at all. Simple solution.  Kudos to AZ for having the guts to address this problem head on!_


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## SFC Ollie (Apr 22, 2010)

Nosmo King said:


> If the statesmen in Arizona pass this law, tens of thousands of Arizonans could be stopped and asked for papers.  Arizonans whose only infraction is being of Latino decent.  If you look Latino, you're subject to this harassment.
> 
> Visiting your daughter at Arizona State?  Don't be named Martinez!  Mind you, if your name is Martin, no problem.  But this law is designed to harass Latinos.
> 
> ...



The law is designed to check the citizenship status of those stopped for other legitimate reasons. Honest citizens have nothing to fear. Read the damn thing. I've posted it often enough.


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## Lonestar_logic (Apr 23, 2010)

Vast LWC said:


> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> > detain   /d&#618;t'e&#618;n/
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Yes I do, but you can tell the difference, can't you?


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## Lonestar_logic (Apr 23, 2010)

Nosmo King said:


> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> > Nosmo King said:
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Employers are required to follow the law, not enforce it.

What is your solution in stopping illegal aliens from entering the country and what would you do with the ones that are already here illegally?


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## Lonestar_logic (Apr 23, 2010)

Si modo said:


> blu said:
> 
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I think what blu is saying is that Democrats are for freedom, freedom to let the illegal aliens do as they please while Republicans seek to apply the rule of law.


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## nraforlife (Apr 23, 2010)

It should be fairly obvious by now that Nosmo King is adamantly opposed to ANY action by government which would slow the flood of illegals. His faction NEEDS these criminals as clients to cement the permanent control of America by his marxist sort.


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## Lonestar_logic (Apr 23, 2010)

Nosmo King said:


> If the statesmen in Arizona pass this law, tens of thousands of Arizonans could be stopped and asked for papers.  Arizonans whose only infraction is being of Latino decent.  If you look Latino, you're subject to this harassment.
> 
> Visiting your daughter at Arizona State?  Don't be named Martinez!  Mind you, if your name is Martin, no problem.  But this law is designed to harass Latinos.
> 
> ...



Yes we just want to harrass Mexicans, damn you saw right though our little scheme!

It has nothing to do with the fact that illegal wetbacks are crippling the state and the federal government refuses to do anything about it. Nooooo it can't be that!


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## Nosmo King (Apr 23, 2010)

Lonestar_logic said:


> Nosmo King said:
> 
> 
> > If the statesmen in Arizona pass this law, tens of thousands of Arizonans could be stopped and asked for papers.  Arizonans whose only infraction is being of Latino decent.  If you look Latino, you're subject to this harassment.
> ...


That's the problem.  But this is a poor solution.  

Enforcement of the immigration laws falls to federal authorities at the border and at the employer.  Not by the local constabulary on the streets of Arizona.

The local cops could stop a Latino driving in any Arizona neighborhood and ask for papers.  These same cops could stop any Latino on the street and ask for papers.  Latinos are the largest minority in the country.  Some of them are actually American citizens or here legally.

This solution is Jim Crow for the Brown rather than the Black.  I'm not surprised you haven't learned from past mistakes.  Conservatives are constantly behind the curve of history and eroding civil liberties.  You're not gaining liberty with these Gestapo tactics, you're erasing it.


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 23, 2010)

The greater threat is to our civil liberties as citizens.

And Nosmo King is correct: this is a Jim Brown law, a law against Hispanics.

Downright pathetic, and there is no question the feds will put an immediate end to it.

And don't tell us about states rights.  AZ has as much of that and will be as effective as Arkansas when the paratroopers went into Little Rock and said "no, that's the end of it" in 1957.


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## Douger (Apr 23, 2010)

It's a plan !


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## blu (Apr 23, 2010)

Douger said:


> It's a plan !



awesome picture


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## Lonestar_logic (Apr 23, 2010)

Nosmo King said:


> Lonestar_logic said:
> 
> 
> > Nosmo King said:
> ...



What part of "the federal government is not doing anything" do you not understand?

Here's the thing, you have no alternative solution neither does the feds, so somebody has to do something and Arizona decided to be proactive and the bleeding heart liberals be damned.


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## Lonestar_logic (Apr 23, 2010)

JakeStarkey said:


> The greater threat is to our civil liberties as citizens.
> 
> And Nosmo King is correct: this is a Jim Brown law, a law against Hispanics.
> 
> ...



It's a law enforcing our immigration laws, it's aimed at illegal wetbacks not against Mexican citizens.


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 23, 2010)

The target does not matter, when the scatter load is so wide it endangers us all, Lonestar.


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