# Gun murder is up in democrat party cities, but gun crime in general is down....... More guns, less gun crime....



## 2aguy (Jan 15, 2022)

A look at the Crime Victimization Survey shows a decrease in gun crime even as gun murder in democrat party controlled cities is going up....of course, the victims of gun murder are majority criminals shot by other criminals.....

*But what the media ignores is that the number of violent gun crimes dropped dramatically in 2020. Last October, the US Department of Justice released a study showing victims reported 212,470 gun crimes to police in 2020, a drop of 27% from the 290,790 in 2019. The share of violent crimes committed with guns also fell – by over 30%.*

*Of course, victims don’t report all crimes to the police. To get a handle on that, the Bureau of Justice Statistics’ National Crime Victimization Survey interviews about 100,000 Americans each year. That survey also finds that the estimated number of gun crimes also fell by 27%, from 481,950 to 350,460 and that the share of violent crimes involving guns was only 7.7%.

In 2020, there was a statistically insignificant few percentage point rise in the share of murder committed with guns, but the share of guns used in robberies and aggravated assaults has dropped dramatically.

All this is consistent with academic research by myself and others showing that when civilians carry guns criminals are less likely to carry them. If a criminal pulls out a gun against an armed victim, he is more likely to be shot.

Gun ownership didn’t fuel the increase in crime over the last couple of years. Rather, people worried about violent crime and decided to arm themselves for self-protection.*

*It’s not hard to find explanations for the increased violence. Many urban areas saw more than half of prison inmates released because of the pandemic, and the releases still continue. Nationwide, there are over 340,000 fewer inmates in jails and prisons in 2021 than in 2019. In many places, police budgets were cut and officers ordered to stand down. New York City cut its police budget by $1 billion. 
----

Prosecutors in many major urban areas have refused to prosecute violent criminals. In October, two rival drug gangs got into a gunfight in Chicago during broad daylight. The fight, caught on video, left one shooter dead and two others wounded. Cook County District Attorney Kim Foxx declined to prosecute any of the gang members, initially explaining they were “mutual combatants.” *



			One moment, please...


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## JoeB131 (Jan 15, 2022)

2aguy said:


> look at the Crime Victimization Survey shows a decrease in gun crime even as gun murder in democrat party controlled cities is going up....of course, the victims of gun murder are majority criminals shot by other criminals.....



So gun crime is down unless youcount people victimized by guns... interesting. 

Meanwhile, in the real world, the number of murders shot up in 2020... mostly because when you lock people in their houses with a gun, they really tend to get on each other's nerves.


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## Wyatt earp (Jan 15, 2022)

A semi good guy (a reformed felon) killed a little girl here in Milwaukee trying to stop a hold up of a local burger king .. Just shooting at will at the bad guy.

Just saying


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## Wyatt earp (Jan 15, 2022)

JoeB131 said:


> So gun crime is down unless youcount people victimized by guns... interesting.
> 
> Meanwhile, in the real world, the number of murders shot up in 2020... mostly because when you lock people in their houses with a gun, they really tend to get on each other's nerves.


Mostly down south, but you knew that already


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## 1srelluc (Jan 15, 2022)

JoeB131 said:


> So gun crime is down unless youcount people victimized by guns... interesting.
> 
> Meanwhile, in the real world, the number of murders shot up in 2020... mostly because when you lock people in their houses with a gun, they really tend to get on each other's nerves.


Well that's a odd "argument".....Par for the course with you but I digress.

#1 Who was locked in their homes?

#2 Please to explain why violent crime is down in areas where legal gun ownership and the rule of law is high.

Now I'm not saying it's due to more guns/gun ownership, that's just silly,  but those areas are usually in states/counties where the cops have not been gelded by leftist politicians, the rule of law still prevails, and the criminal black population is 3-4 points below the national average.


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## JoeB131 (Jan 15, 2022)

1srelluc said:


> Well that's a odd "argument".....Par for the course with you but I digress.
> 
> #1 Who was locked in their homes?
> 
> ...



I've been mostly working from home since March 2020.   I think I've maybe gone into the office 30% of the weeks I've worked...  

Violent crime is up across the country. 









						Why violent crime surged in 2020 — and why it's not over yet
					

The pandemic, policing, and declining social trust all drove a homicide spike that hasn't ebbed yet




					www.axios.com


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## 1srelluc (Jan 15, 2022)

JoeB131 said:


> *I've been mostly working from home since March 2020.   I think I've maybe gone into the office 30% of the weeks I've worked... *
> 
> Violent crime is up across the country.
> 
> ...



What the blue fuck does that have to do with anything? You wearing a ankle monitoring bracelet or something?

Ha! You are not fooling me, I bet you are tooling around town at 1000 like the rest of the damn "Homers".


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## JoeB131 (Jan 15, 2022)

1srelluc said:


> What the blue fuck does that have to do with anything? You wearing a ankle monitoring bracelet or something?
> 
> Ha! You are not fooling me, I bet you are tooling around town at 1000 like the rest of the damn "Homers".


I wish.  I'm working close to 80 hours a week right now.  

I'm trying to crowd a bunch of errands into a Saturday because I won't have time for them the rest of the week.


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## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Jan 15, 2022)

JoeB131 said:


> So gun crime is down unless youcount people victimized by guns... interesting.
> 
> Meanwhile, in the real world, the number of murders shot up in 2020... mostly because when you lock people in their houses with a gun, they really tend to get on each other's nerves.


Which means the lockdown was fucking stupid.


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## 2aguy (Jan 15, 2022)

JoeB131 said:


> So gun crime is down unless youcount people victimized by guns... interesting.
> 
> Meanwhile, in the real world, the number of murders shot up in 2020... mostly because when you lock people in their houses with a gun, they really tend to get on each other's nerves.




No......if you look at who is being murdered, the ones getting murdered are 70-80% criminals murdered by other criminals......and of the rest, they are majority the baby mommas, children, other relatives, and friends and associates of gang members and other cxriminals who are killed when they are hit in the cross fire of gang beefs, and other criminal activity.

They are not John and Jane Q. citizen living their lives outside of the tiny areas in democrat party controlled cities where the democrats keep releasing these violent criminals over and over again...


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## 2aguy (Jan 15, 2022)

JoeB131 said:


> I've been mostly working from home since March 2020.   I think I've maybe gone into the office 30% of the weeks I've worked...
> 
> Violent crime is up across the country.
> 
> ...



Why?

1) The democrat party, in 2015, decided they would start a war on the police......they want to take money for the police and use it to fund their various stupid programs that do nothing but support the democrat party.....the police are now so concerned for their jobs, their pensions and their freedom...that they are not going after criminals until they absolutely have to...

2) the democrat party decided that releasing known, repeat, violent criminals was the way to go......and even when you have 5 gang members shooting at each other, on video....on a public street, with two of the gang members on the ground with bullets in them...the democrat party prosecutor, kim foxx in chicago.....will not press any charges against any of them......

Those two reasons are the sole reason we have more violent crime across America, but more violence in democrat party controlled cities.


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## 2aguy (Jan 15, 2022)

JoeB131 said:


> So gun crime is down unless youcount people victimized by guns... interesting.
> 
> Meanwhile, in the real world, the number of murders shot up in 2020... mostly because when you lock people in their houses with a gun, they really tend to get on each other's nerves.




No...when you keep the police from doing their jobs, gang members and other criminals start carrying guns with them all the time...since they are not afraid the police will stop them in public and catch them with the illegal gun....and then, even if caught, the democrat prosecutor will drop the gun charge, and the democrat party judge will release them without bail........

That is driving the gun murder rate....criminals shooting each other over drug turf...cause selling drugs never has a slow day...


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## JoeB131 (Jan 15, 2022)

Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> Which means the lockdown was fucking stupid.



I think it's more a balancing act.   Without lockdowns, this thing would have spread a lot faster and a lot deadlier.  The fact that we are STILL losing 1500-2000 people a day even with other precautions AND 60% of the population vaccinated,  one could only imagine the disaster if we kept going as we are in early 2000 with no other safeguards or protocols in place yet.  

Even a 10% increase in mortality in 2020 would be 40,000 lives.  As opposed to 5000 excess homicides for people who probably needed to see a divorce attorney.


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## JoeB131 (Jan 15, 2022)

2aguy said:


> No...when you keep the police from doing their jobs, gang members and other criminals start carrying guns with them all the time...since they are not afraid the police will stop them in public and catch them with the illegal gun....and then, even if caught, the democrat prosecutor will drop the gun charge, and the democrat party judge will release them without bail........
> 
> That is driving the gun murder rate....criminals shooting each other over drug turf...cause selling drugs never has a slow day...


That sounds like a good argument for legalizing drugs, not guns.  

Of course, most gun deaths are nothing to do with drugs, they are domestic arguments.


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## JoeB131 (Jan 15, 2022)

2aguy said:


> No......if you look at who is being murdered, the ones getting murdered are 70-80% criminals murdered by other criminals......and of the rest, they are majority the baby mommas, children, other relatives, and friends and associates of gang members and other cxriminals who are killed when they are hit in the cross fire of gang beefs, and other criminal activity.
> 
> They are not John and Jane Q. citizen living their lives outside of the tiny areas in democrat party controlled cities where the democrats keep releasing these violent criminals over and over again...



Ah, it's just the darkies, so no big whoop, right Dick Tiny?  

Sadly, that's too true.  The only time we give a crap about the gun violence is when a crazy white person shoots up a school or a theater.


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## 2aguy (Jan 15, 2022)

JoeB131 said:


> That sounds like a good argument for legalizing drugs, not guns.
> 
> Of course, most gun deaths are nothing to do with drugs, they are domestic arguments.




And you are lying....they are not domestic arguments.....they are criminals engaged in the criminal lifestyle and profession..


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## 2aguy (Jan 15, 2022)

JoeB131 said:


> Ah, it's just the darkies, so no big whoop, right Dick Tiny?
> 
> Sadly, that's too true.  The only time we give a crap about the gun violence is when a crazy white person shoots up a school or a theater.




No...that's you....and the democrats......we want violent criminals locked up because they kill other Americans, regardless of race....the democrats pretend to care about black Americans a few months before each election, then release the worst murderers back into black communities to kill, over and over again..


that is on you and the democrat party, not me.


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## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Jan 15, 2022)

JoeB131 said:


> I think it's more a balancing act.   Without lockdowns, this thing would have spread a lot faster and a lot deadlier.  The fact that we are STILL losing 1500-2000 people a day even with other precautions AND 60% of the population vaccinated,  one could only imagine the disaster if we kept going as we are in early 2000 with no other safeguards or protocols in place yet.
> 
> Even a 10% increase in mortality in 2020 would be 40,000 lives.  As opposed to 5000 excess homicides for people who probably needed to see a divorce attorney.


The lockdowns didn't do shit.  If anything, it made more people sick and it definitely created a multitude of other problems.


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## JoeB131 (Jan 15, 2022)

2aguy said:


> No...that's you....and the democrats......we want violent criminals locked up because they kill other Americans, regardless of race....the democrats pretend to care about black Americans a few months before each election, then release the worst murderers back into black communities to kill, over and over again..



Guy, most of the people in prison aren't in there for murder. If you restricted prisons to just the rapists and murderers, you would have a prison population of only about 400,000 or so.


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## 2aguy (Jan 15, 2022)

JoeB131 said:


> Guy, most of the people in prison aren't in there for murder. If you restricted prisons to just the rapists and murderers, you would have a prison population of only about 400,000 or so.
> 
> 
> View attachment 588466




Soooooo?    Why do the democrats keep releasing the murderers and rapists?

That is the question you have to answer.


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## JoeB131 (Jan 15, 2022)

Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> The lockdowns didn't do shit. If anything, it made more people sick and it definitely created a multitude of other problems.



I know that's the Bleach Drinker Bible version.


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## JoeB131 (Jan 15, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Soooooo? Why do the democrats keep releasing the murderers and rapists?
> 
> That is the question you have to answer.



Because they served their time?  Come on, buddy, you know better...  

As for rapists, only 3% of rapists ever see the inside of a prison cell.  I'd personally like that to be more, but then we'd have to let the drug dealers out.


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## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Jan 15, 2022)

JoeB131 said:


> I know that's the Bleach Drinker Bible version.


That's reality.  There's no source out there that can 1. Prove that the lockdowns suppressed the spread, nor 2. That the vaccine suppressed the spread.

You people need to get a fucking grip.


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## Captain Caveman (Jan 15, 2022)




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## Abatis (Jan 15, 2022)

JoeB131 said:


> Ah, it's just the darkies, so no big whoop, right Dick Tiny?
> 
> Sadly, that's too true.  The only time we give a crap about the gun violence is when a crazy white person shoots up a school or a theater.



Whatever concern is shown for crime victims by people like you only extends to how the victim's suffering can be capitalized on, to exploit for power to restrict those who you perceive are opposed to your agenda.

This is proven simply by examining the proposals your ilk present to address crime;  They never work to impact crime, only to expand government control over people . . . Of course *not* the people who are doing the killing. Your agenda's interest in killers is to nurture, protect, excuse even facilitate their war on society, for _that_ horror provides the plausible argument for gun control.


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Jan 15, 2022)

2aguy said:


> A look at the Crime Victimization Survey shows a decrease in gun crime even as gun murder in democrat party controlled cities is going up....of course, the victims of gun murder are majority criminals shot by other criminals.....
> 
> *But what the media ignores is that the number of violent gun crimes dropped dramatically in 2020. Last October, the US Department of Justice released a study showing victims reported 212,470 gun crimes to police in 2020, a drop of 27% from the 290,790 in 2019. The share of violent crimes committed with guns also fell – by over 30%.*
> 
> ...


This fails as a post hoc fallacy.


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## 2aguy (Jan 15, 2022)

JoeB131 said:


> Because they served their time?  Come on, buddy, you know better...
> 
> As for rapists, only 3% of rapists ever see the inside of a prison cell.  I'd personally like that to be more, but then we'd have to let the drug dealers out.



No...because the democrat prosecutor dropped the gun charges which would have added years to the sentence and the judge gave them less time....


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## M14 Shooter (Jan 15, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> View attachment 588470


Thank you for your zero-content response.


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## Captain Caveman (Jan 16, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Thank you for your zero-content response.


I think it compliments your zero-effective ideas on reducing gun violence. But that's not something you want.


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## JoeB131 (Jan 16, 2022)

Abatis said:


> Whatever concern is shown for crime victims by people like you only extends to how the victim's suffering can be capitalized on, to exploit for power to restrict those who you perceive are opposed to your agenda.
> 
> This is proven simply by examining the proposals your ilk present to address crime; They never work to impact crime, only to expand government control over people . . . Of course *not* the people who are doing the killing. Your agenda's interest in killers is to nurture, protect, excuse even facilitate their war on society, for _that_ horror provides the plausible argument for gun control.



They wouldn't be able to make war on society if it wasn't so easy for them to get guns.  

83% of murders are committed by people who know each other.  We have met the enemy, and he is us.


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## JoeB131 (Jan 16, 2022)

Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> That's reality. There's no source out there that can 1. Prove that the lockdowns suppressed the spread, nor 2. That the vaccine suppressed the spread.
> 
> You people need to get a fucking grip.



You mean other than countries that had complete lockdowns and wider vaccinations haven't had our casualty rates. 

You see, the thing is, the US has 4% of the world's population and 18% of the Covid deaths (it was at 25% under Trump) 

Compare that to Japan, where they have had strict lockdown and they have only had 18K deaths compared to our 800K.


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## bugs (Jan 16, 2022)

JoeB131 said:


> So gun crime is down unless youcount people victimized by guns... interesting.
> 
> Meanwhile, in the real world, the number of murders shot up in 2020... mostly because when you lock people in their houses with a gun, they really tend to get on each other's nerves.


^A Well Thought out Reply..
it's WHY I'm a Member >>> GOA | The only no compromise gun lobby in Washington


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## 2aguy (Jan 16, 2022)

JoeB131 said:


> They wouldn't be able to make war on society if it wasn't so easy for them to get guns.
> 
> 83% of murders are committed by people who know each other.  We have met the enemy, and he is us




*83% of murders are committed by people who know each other.*

Yep.....gang members of one gang murdering the members of another gang, and accidentally hitting the baby mommas, children, friends and associates of those gang members....the drug dealers shooting each other over drug turf........those are the people who "know each other," and are shooting each other as part of their criminal lifestyle...

It isn't the people who own guns for self defense, hunting and sport...you doofus....


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## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Jan 16, 2022)

JoeB131 said:


> You mean other than countries that had complete lockdowns and wider vaccinations haven't had our casualty rates.
> 
> You see, the thing is, the US has 4% of the world's population and 18% of the Covid deaths (it was at 25% under Trump)
> 
> Compare that to Japan, where they have had strict lockdown and they have only had 18K deaths compared to our 800K.


Other countries that had lockdowns and more vaccinations have had higher infection rates, too.  The UK, France, Ireland, Netherlands all have higher infection rates than The United States.  All are highly vaxxed and strictly locked down.

Japan has fewer people than The United States.  Of course they will have fewer deaths...lol.  Not to mention, the death numbers in The United States are inaccurate.


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## Otis Mayfield (Jan 16, 2022)

2aguy said:


> A look at the Crime Victimization Survey shows a decrease in gun crime even as gun murder in democrat party controlled cities is going up....of course, the victims of gun murder are majority criminals shot by other criminals.....
> 
> *But what the media ignores is that the number of violent gun crimes dropped dramatically in 2020. Last October, the US Department of Justice released a study showing victims reported 212,470 gun crimes to police in 2020, a drop of 27% from the 290,790 in 2019. The share of violent crimes committed with guns also fell – by over 30%.*
> 
> ...




Dem colerts are killin everyone!

Wut? I said, "colert."


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## Abatis (Jan 16, 2022)

JoeB131 said:


> They wouldn't be able to make war on society if it wasn't so easy for them to get guns.
> 
> 83% of murders are committed by people who know each other.  We have met the enemy, and he is us.



You are so full of crap . . .

I challenged it and asked you before to support your this "83% . . . " claim of yours.  It's obvious you don't really know the particulars of the 83% stat you have thrown out dozens of times in he last year.  Why is your description / breakdown of the 83% never specific and so lacking consistency?  

I have read it to be:
"83% *are killed by friends and family*" 
"83% *of murder victims know each other*"
"83% *of murder victims know their killers*"
"83% *of homicides are committed by people who know each other*"
"83% *of gun homicides are people the victim knows*"
"83% *of murderers have some relationship to the victim*"
"83% *of gun murders are "normal" people killing their friends and family*"
"83% *of homicides are not career criminals, they are people who got into altercations with their family, friends or neighbors*"
"83% *of homicides are family or aquaintences*[sic]"
"83% *of murders aren't gangs, they are people who shoot their family and neighbors*"
"83% *of gun homicides are people who are shot by family members, friends or neighbors*"
"83% *of homicides are domestic violence of some sort. i.e. victims know their killers*"
"83% *of homcides are domestic violence*"

You never cite the source of the 83% with a breakdown that refutes the simple challenge that you are stretching "acquaintance" far, far beyond the FBI meaning to make your half-assed gun control points.

Besides your loosely-goosey terminology, (which itself indicates deception), and blatant exaggerations / misrepresentations, (saying the 83% is just "gun homicides" or just "domestic violence"), *again* I demand you cite your source for the "83% . . . ", _with a link_.  

I know for a fact the numbers just don't add up, at least using numbers from *the most recent FBI-UCR*; 28% + 13% = 41%, *not* 83%.


"In 2019, 28.3 percent of homicide victims were killed by someone they knew other than family members (acquaintance, neighbor, friend, boyfriend, etc.), 13.0 percent were slain by family members, and 9.9 percent were killed by strangers. The relationship between murder victims and offenders was unknown in 48.9 percent of murder and nonnegligent manslaughter incidents."​

So put up or shut up, state your stats clearly, precisely, consistently and source them . . . Or not, and be a typical duplicitous anti-gunner eager to lie to make your points.

.


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## M14 Shooter (Jan 16, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> I think it compliments your zero-effective ideas on reducing gun violence.


What -are- my ideas on reducing gun violence?
Be _specific_


Captain Caveman said:


> But that's not something you want.


Why do I now want to reduce gun violence?
Be _specific_.


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## JoeB131 (Jan 16, 2022)

Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> Other countries that had lockdowns and more vaccinations have had higher infection rates, too. The UK, France, Ireland, Netherlands all have higher infection rates than The United States. All are highly vaxxed and strictly locked down.



The UK had a higher rate because Boris Johnson is almost a big an idiot as Trump.   The countries with LEADERSHIP had lower rates. 



Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> Japan has fewer people than The United States. Of course they will have fewer deaths...lol. Not to mention, the death numbers in The United States are inaccurate.



Uh, Japan has lost 18K people out of a population of 130 million. 
We lost 800K out of a population of 330 million. 




Abatis said:


> You are so full of crap . . .
> 
> I challenged it and asked you before to support your this "83% . . . " claim of yours. It's obvious you don't really know the particulars of the 83% stat you have thrown out dozens of times in he last year. Why is your description / breakdown of the 83% never specific and so lacking consistency?
> 
> I have read it to be:



Wow, you seriously linked to every post?  Man, that's pathetic and sad.  

Most people who are murdered are murdered by people they know.  FACT.  Strangers have no reason to kill you.  They don't know you.


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## Abatis (Jan 17, 2022)

JoeB131 said:


> Wow, you seriously linked to every post?  Man, that's pathetic and sad.



Given you ignored my request that you substantiate your "83% . . . " claims and that you have no intellectual integrity, I felt it prudent to simply prove that you do not maintain any continuity when you throw out your "83% . . .  " claim.

Sure, it was a bit of a pain in the ass but for quickly exposing your duplicitousness, it was worth the 10 minutes, better than wasting time in a half-dozen posts back-n-forth with you dissembling.



JoeB131 said:


> Most people who are murdered are murdered by people they know.  FACT.



Wrong, you are lying.  It can't be "most" murders, it sure isn't 83% of _all_ murders and damn sure isn't "gun" murders or "domestic" murders . . . Because of the total, 9.9% of murder victims are killed by strangers and for 49% of all murders, no relationship between murder victim and offender was ascertained.

The best that you can possibly hope for is to qualify your statement;  you could safely say, "most people who are murdered are murdered by people they know" -- _for just the incidents _where _a relationship_* is known*. 

It is you who is pathetic and sad, that you have so little confidence in your position and so little self respect that you just can't be honest in your argumentation.



JoeB131 said:


> Strangers have no reason to kill you.  They don't know you.



How preposterous; is that really how far the anti-gunner self-delusion goes?


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## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Jan 17, 2022)

JoeB131 said:


> The UK had a higher rate because Boris Johnson is almost a big an idiot as Trump.   The countries with LEADERSHIP had lower rates.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But, those countries are more vaxxed and have more restrictions than The United States ever did.  How do you explain that?  Is it because the lockdowns did more harm than good?

Japan has 431 inhabited islands.  That made it harder for the virus to travel among the population.


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## Captain Caveman (Jan 17, 2022)

Abatis said:


> You are so full of crap . . .
> 
> I challenged it and asked you before to support your this "83% . . . " claim of yours.  It's obvious you don't really know the particulars of the 83% stat you have thrown out dozens of times in he last year.  Why is your description / breakdown of the 83% never specific and so lacking consistency?
> 
> ...


Here's a stat, 100% of gun nuts are gun nuts because Numan.com won't supply them the medication


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## M14 Shooter (Jan 17, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Here's a stat, 100% of gun nuts are gun nuts because Numan.com won't supply them the medication


Why do you need to lie to make a point?


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## M14 Shooter (Jan 17, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> I think it compliments your zero-effective ideas on reducing gun violence.


What -are- my ideas on reducing gun violence?
Be _specific_



> But that's not something you want.


Why do I not want to reduce gun violence?
Be _specific_.


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## Abatis (Jan 17, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> Here's a stat, 100% of gun nuts are gun nuts because Numan.com won't supply them the medication



In 30+ years of enjoying on-line debate on guns, it always amazes me how many hoplophobes can't compose a thought in rebuttal to a gun rights person without projecting their sexual fixations, dwelling on male genitalia.  It is really a strange phenomena that is international and has persevered through generations of anti-gunners.


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## 2aguy (Jan 17, 2022)

Abatis said:


> In 30+ years of enjoying on-line debate on guns, it always amazes me how many hoplophobes can't compose a thought in rebuttal to a gun rights person without projecting their sexual fixations, dwelling on male genitalia.  It is really a strange phenomena that is international and has persevered through generations of anti-gunners.




Yeah......that is one of the weirdest things about the anti-gunners.....


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## JoeB131 (Jan 17, 2022)

Abatis said:


> Given you ignored my request that you substantiate your "83%





Abatis said:


> Wrong, you are lying. It can't be "most" murders, it sure isn't 83% of _all_ murders and damn sure isn't "gun" murders or "domestic" murders . . . Because of the total, 9.9% of murder victims are killed by strangers and for 49% of all murders, no relationship between murder victim and offender was ascertained.



That just means the cops didn't get off their lazy asses and solve the case.   If you extrapolate the KNOWN murders to the UNKNOWN murders, then you get 83% people being killed by their friends and family (really, the only ones who want to kill them) and 17% who are strangers.  Because why would you want to kill a stranger?  



Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> But, those countries are more vaxxed and have more restrictions than The United States ever did. How do you explain that? Is it because the lockdowns did more harm than good?
> 
> Japan has 431 inhabited islands. That made it harder for the virus to travel among the population.



Uh, most of the population lives on the four major islands and they are very well connected.  Japan ALSO is much more densely populated than the US, which would cause the virus to spread faster if they had Trump-class leadership.   

Of course, the Japanese followed social distancing.  They did lockdowns until other methods of control could be implemented.  They got vaxed.  They cancelled the Olympics for a year.   The wearing of Masks was already popular in Japanese cities, and the Japanese are less likely to make physical contact when greeting (they do the bowing thing instead of shaking hands or hugging).


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## Abatis (Jan 17, 2022)

JoeB131 said:


> That just means the cops didn't get off their lazy asses and solve the case.



Useless hyperbolic derogatory speculation.



JoeB131 said:


> If you extrapolate the KNOWN murders to the UNKNOWN murders, then you get 83% people being killed by their friends and family (really, the only ones who want to kill them) and 17% who are strangers.  Because why would you want to kill a stranger?



So if we conjure situations and invent conditions that are unsupported by the data, we might arrive at that very precise "_83% . .  ._" percentage that you have been citing dozens of times over the last year . . .  You have been beating the board over the head for months with that fake stat, pretending that you knew what you were talking about. 

You are a useless, untrustworthy fraud; not one sylable of anything you post should be considered "reality" or "fact", no matter how emphatically you misrepresent it.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 18, 2022)

Abatis said:


> Useless hyperbolic derogatory speculation.



In 2018, 87% of murders in Chicago went unsolved.  They totally proved that Jussie Smollet lied about getting beaten up, though.  So they can actually do investigations when they want to. 



Abatis said:


> So if we conjure situations and invent conditions that are unsupported by the data, we might arrive at that very precise "_83% . . ._" percentage that you have been citing dozens of times over the last year . . . You have been beating the board over the head for months with that fake stat, pretending that you knew what you were talking about.



The data is pretty clear.  83% of homicide victims know their killers... it's why the murder rate jumped in 2020 after we all got locked into our houses for a year.


----------



## Abatis (Jan 18, 2022)

JoeB131 said:


> In 2018, 87% of murders in Chicago went unsolved.  They totally proved that Jussie Smollet lied about getting beaten up, though.  So they can actually do investigations when they want to.



Murders go unsolved because witnesses are either fellow criminals and would rather settle the score themselves, or honest people who have zero confidence in the leftist, hug-a-thug DA to ever actually put the murderer in prison and/or even keep the hug in jail until the trial and keep the witnesses safe.

In leftist criminal-coddling Hell-holes like Chicago, coming forward and helping the prosecution means you will soon be another "stat" of a victim that "knew" their killer for leftist anti-gunners like you to throw out to argue White guys like me in the suburbs need to have their gun rights restricted.

You are morally bankrupt. . . .

Smollet's case began with an outsized police response because he was famous and gay and blamed Trump supporters.  Turns out he was just an idiot and his story collapsed.  Not even remotely equatable . . . Well, unless you are a dishonest, leftist anti-gunner without any intellectual integrity.



JoeB131 said:


> The data is pretty clear.  83% of homicide victims know their killers... it's why the murder rate jumped in 2020 after we all got locked into our houses for a year.



The data is clear, you are pretending to know what you are talking about.

.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 19, 2022)

Abatis said:


> Murders go unsolved because witnesses are either fellow criminals and would rather settle the score themselves, or honest people who have zero confidence in the leftist, hug-a-thug DA to ever actually put the murderer in prison and/or even keep the hug in jail until the trial and keep the witnesses safe.



Murders go unsolved because the cops don't give a fuck if it isn't a white person.  Ever notice that cop-killings never go unsolved?  



Abatis said:


> In leftist criminal-coddling Hell-holes like Chicago, coming forward and helping the prosecution means you will soon be another "stat" of a victim that "knew" their killer for leftist anti-gunners like you to throw out to argue White guys like me in the suburbs need to have their gun rights restricted.



Except Chicago was doing a pretty good job of bringing the murder rate down until the McDonald Decision allowed every asshole who wanted a gun to have one.  I mean, you guys flood the streets with guns and then wonder why the murder rate goes up. 



Abatis said:


> Smollet's case began with an outsized police response because he was famous and gay and blamed Trump supporters. Turns out he was just an idiot and his story collapsed. Not even remotely equatable . . . Well, unless you are a dishonest, leftist anti-gunner without any intellectual integrity.



But the question is, why are we not treating MURDERS with that kind of urgency.  If they could chase down every lead to find that Smollett was a big fibber, there's no reason why they can't do the same with murderers...  

Why did the CPD feel a NEED to exonerate Trump supporters?


----------



## Blues Man (Jan 19, 2022)

Our murder problem is a purely urban condition.

Murder rates are often more more than 10 times  the national rate.

But we already know this and we have always know it.









						New FBI Data Is In: Murder Rates in U.S. Cities, Ranked
					

The national murder rate increased by 29 percent in 2020 as violence surged during the pandemic, new FBI data shows.




					www.thetrace.org


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 19, 2022)

JoeB131 said:


> Murders go unsolved because the cops don't give a fuck if it isn't a white person.  Ever notice that cop-killings never go unsolved?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Chicago didn't bring down the murder rate.........and normal people carrying guns didn't increase the gun murder rate since normal people carrying legal guns don't shoot other people.....

The problem?

1) the democrat party in Chicago and across the country started a war on the police.

2) democrat party judges and prosecutors decided to start releasing known, violent, repeat gun offenders over and over again.......releasing the actual shooters to keep shooting people in their tiny areas in Chicago..


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 19, 2022)

JoeB131 said:


> Murders go unsolved because the cops don't give a fuck if it isn't a white person.  Ever notice that cop-killings never go unsolved?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*But the question is, why are we not treating MURDERS with that kind of urgency.  

 OOOH.....OOOOh.......pick me.....pick me....

The democrat party....

The democrat party started attacking the police and moving various detective units, and cutting the budget....that was before 2015 when the democrat party went even more insane and increased their attacks on the police...

The democrat party prosecutors and judges started a revolving door policy for the most violent criminals.....so that anyone who would even think of helping the police now knows the guy they will be pointing out to the police will be back on the street in less than 48 hours.......which makes it highly fucking unlikely that the defenseless witnesses will help the police....

The democrat party realizes they have the black vote locked up, so they don't care how many young black males are killed as long as there are still enough to vote for democrats every two years...*


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 20, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Our murder problem is a purely urban condition.
> 
> Murder rates are often more more than 10 times the national rate.
> 
> But we already know this and we have always know it.



You mean murders happen where people ACTUALLY LIVE?   Wow.  In related news, Water is Wet. 



2aguy said:


> The democrat party started attacking the police and moving various detective units, and cutting the budget....that was before 2015 when the democrat party went even more insane and increased their attacks on the police...



Actually, more like, we aren't going to fire any cops no matter how bad their performance is. 

They were able to prove Jussie Smollet was a liar within two weeks...there's really no reason why they can't solve homicides, except for complete apathy.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 20, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Chicago didn't bring down the murder rate.........and normal people carrying guns didn't increase the gun murder rate since normal people carrying legal guns don't shoot other people.....



83% of homicides victims know their killers...  sadly, giving "ordinary" people guns is exactly the problem.


----------



## Abatis (Jan 20, 2022)

JoeB131 said:


> 83% of homicides victims know their killers



Where ever you invent that BS number from, it has no relationship with actual facts.

From *the most recent FBI-UCR*:


"In 2019, 28.3 percent of homicide victims were killed by someone they knew other than family members (acquaintance, neighbor, friend, boyfriend, etc.), 13.0 percent were slain by family members, and 9.9 percent were killed by strangers. The relationship between murder victims and offenders was unknown in 48.9 percent of murder and nonnegligent manslaughter incidents."​

*STOP LYING!*


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 20, 2022)

Abatis said:


> Where ever you invent that BS number from, it has no relationship with actual facts.



Nobody cares about what the FBI says at this point.


----------



## Blues Man (Jan 20, 2022)

JoeB131 said:


> You mean murders happen where people ACTUALLY LIVE?   Wow.  In related news, Water is Wet.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No I mean that in very small urban areas the murder rate can be more than 10 times the national average.

Idiots like you think that stopping a person who lives hundreds of miles away in an area where the murder rate is historically near zero from owning a couple guns will somehow stop those murders in our hyper violent inner cities.

Like I said you don;t know Jack Shit about the crime and violence in this country


----------



## Abatis (Jan 20, 2022)

JoeB131 said:


> Nobody cares about what the FBI says at this point.



Well, nobody but disingenuous leftists, who's goal is to push illegitimate actions the government doesn't have to power to do, justifying your demands arguing statistics that you make up yourself, that contravene the official data.


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 20, 2022)

JoeB131 said:


> You mean murders happen where people ACTUALLY LIVE?   Wow.  In related news, Water is Wet.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Shithead....when the democrat party judges and prosecutors are releasing the murderers within 48 hours of arresting them, and them and their buddies go back to the neighborhood and look up the witnesses......?

Are you really that fucking stupid.....?   Yes....yes you are.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 20, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> No I mean that in very small urban areas the murder rate can be more than 10 times the national average.
> 
> Idiots like you think that stopping a person who lives hundreds of miles away in an area where the murder rate is historically near zero from owning a couple guns will somehow stop those murders in our hyper violent inner cities.
> 
> Like I said you don;t know Jack Shit about the crime and violence in this country



I know this much- It's too fucking high, especially compared to other European Nations. 

Now, I live in a nice suburb where there is very little crime, and our friendly police force even has time to pull you over to tell you a headlight is out.   So I could say, "Meh, not my problem, man."   But, um, yeah, it's a problem, and the easy access to guns is a major cause.  



Abatis said:


> Well, nobody but disingenuous leftists, who's goal is to push illegitimate actions the government doesn't have to power to do, justifying your demands arguing statistics that you make up yourself, that contravene the official data.



Government has the power to do anything that the majority is fine with.  There are no rights, only privileges the rest of society agrees you should have.  

The problem with the Gun Fetishists is that they have bullied the rest of us who don't own guns into going along with it... by various disingenous means.  So why most people only get upset for a day or two after a tragedy like Sandy Hook, the Gun Nuts work 24/7 to keep the status quo. 



2aguy said:


> Shithead....when the democrat party judges and prosecutors are releasing the murderers within 48 hours of arresting them, and them and their buddies go back to the neighborhood and look up the witnesses......?



Can you actually name a case where a witness has been murdered?  And I don't mean digging some shit up from 10 years ago, something recent, please.  

Maybe you need to watch less TV.


----------



## Blues Man (Jan 21, 2022)

JoeB131 said:


> I know this much- It's too fucking high, especially compared to other European Nations.
> 
> Now, I live in a nice suburb where there is very little crime, and our friendly police force even has time to pull you over to tell you a headlight is out.   So I could say, "Meh, not my problem, man."   But, um, yeah, it's a problem, and the easy access to guns is a major cause.
> 
> ...


And I already told you how we can bring the number down by up to 70% but you don;t want to hear it.

And What are you talking about witnesses being killed for?  I never said anything about that.
And I'll give you odds that you watch far more TV than I do.

And the reason why people don't maintain their outrage is on them not me.

I guess most people understand that gun violence isn't really a problem in the vast majority of communities in this country.


----------



## Otis Mayfield (Jan 21, 2022)

It's dem cullerts!


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 21, 2022)

JoeB131 said:


> I know this much- It's too fucking high, especially compared to other European Nations.
> 
> Now, I live in a nice suburb where there is very little crime, and our friendly police force even has time to pull you over to tell you a headlight is out.   So I could say, "Meh, not my problem, man."   But, um, yeah, it's a problem, and the easy access to guns is a major cause.
> 
> ...



You just stated how many murders go unsolved then ask me to give you names? You are an idiot.

Please, tell us that a witness to a shooting is going to name themselves when they know the shooter will be back in their neighborhood in 48 hours or less…


----------



## Abatis (Jan 22, 2022)

JoeB131 said:


> Government has the power to do anything that the majority is fine with.  There are no rights, only privileges the rest of society agrees you should have.



You really are a joke.  You espouse beliefs in direct opposition to the legal foundations and current operations of the US government which makes necessary your use of fake stats which you use to support and promote public policy that is unconstitutional and plain stupid.

You are a walking, talkng trifecta of idiocy.



JoeB131 said:


> The problem with the Gun Fetishists is that they have bullied the rest of us who don't own guns into going along with it... by various disingenous means.



Yes, the means called the foundational constitutional principles guiding legislative and judicial operations where the ignorant whims of people like you are crippled and extinguished. 



JoeB131 said:


> Can you actually name a case where a witness has been murdered?  And I don't mean digging some shit up from 10 years ago, something recent, please.
> 
> Maybe you need to watch less TV.



Are you saying '_don't snitch_' isn't enforced, that witness intimidation doesn't occur and that it is not a reason for low prosecution and especially conviction rates? As I said uptread, "murders go unsolved because witnesses are either fellow criminals and would rather settle the score themselves, or honest people who have zero confidence in the leftist, hug-a-thug DA to ever actually put the murderer in prison and/or even keep the thug in jail until the trial and keep the witnesses safe."

As former resident of Philly, (for 30 years), a frequent visitor with family and friends still in the city, I pay attention to what's going on. These stories on this situation from the last year . . .









						Philly anti-violence activists: Crime witnesses need more help
					

The conviction rates for nonfatal shootings and illegal gun possession are decidedly low in Philadelphia. One of the problems: Witnesses aren’t showing up to court.




					whyy.org
				












						Philadelphia DA says victim relocation requests are up 50% as the shootings crisis persists
					

Krasner’s plea for additional funding came as the pace of gun violence in the city continued at an unprecedented pace.




					www.inquirer.com
				












						Reluctant witnesses hampering gun violence prosecutions, Philly DA Krasner says - Pennsylvania Capital-Star
					

'Police go to every door, knock on the doors, ask if there are any witnesses,' Krasner said. 'No witnesses come forward, or there are no witnesses.'




					www.penncapital-star.com


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 22, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> And I already told you how we can bring the number down by up to 70% but you don;t want to hear it.


Yes, I don't want to hear how we can lock people up and make worse criminals... we've been doing that shit for 40 years and have dug ourselves deeper into the hole. 



Blues Man said:


> And What are you talking about witnesses being killed for? I never said anything about that.
> And I'll give you odds that you watch far more TV than I do.



I think I was responding to Dick Tiny...  who thinks that the reason why people don't report crime is because they are afraid of getting killed, even though that never happens.  They don't report crime because they don't trust the police.  



Blues Man said:


> I guess most people understand that gun violence isn't really a problem in the vast majority of communities in this country.


Actually, most Americans favor stricter gun control.    That number would be higher if they realized how lax our gun laws are. 






Blues Man said:


> And the reason why people don't maintain their outrage is on them not me.


I agree. People need to stand up to the Gun Industry..   



2aguy said:


> You just stated how many murders go unsolved then ask me to give you names? You are an idiot.
> 
> Please, tell us that a witness to a shooting is going to name themselves when they know the shooter will be back in their neighborhood in 48 hours or less…



Except you've never given an example of someone who was killed as a witness...  Come on, if this is the reason then you should be EASILY able to name someone who was murdered for being a witness against the gang-bangers.  

People don't speak up because they don't trust a police department that gave John Burge and Jason van Dyke badges...  



Abatis said:


> Are you saying '_don't snitch_' isn't enforced, that witness intimidation doesn't occur and that it is not a reason for low prosecution and especially conviction rates? As I said uptread, "murders go unsolved because witnesses are either fellow criminals and would rather settle the score themselves, or honest people who have zero confidence in the leftist, hug-a-thug DA to ever actually put the murderer in prison and/or even keep the thug in jail until the trial and keep the witnesses safe."



Again, point out a case where someone was killed for being a witness... and you might have a point.


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 22, 2022)

JoeB131 said:


> Yes, I don't want to hear how we can lock people up and make worse criminals... we've been doing that shit for 40 years and have dug ourselves deeper into the hole.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yeah...no....after the democrat party declared war on the police in 2015, and then sent their brown shirts, blm and antifa not only to burn minority neighborhoods, but now into the suburbs.....most Americans see them for what they are and have decided gun control is only for suckers........

From CNN.......I don't think those 3 letters look like NRA...

*Just 52% of Americans polled now say that the "laws covering the sales of firearms" should be stricter than they currently are, the lowest number that Gallup has measured on the question since 2014.
---
n 2019, there were still 64% of people who told Gallup they wanted stricter gun laws. That dropped to 57% in 2020 and now 52% in 2021.*









						Analysis: Support for gun control just hit its lowest point in almost a decade
					

In the wake of the 2018 mass school shooting in Parkland, Florida, a new generation of teen activists emerged who insisted that the old boom/bust cycle of gun control politics in this country was no more.




					www.cnn.com
				




And you know Gallup is skewing those numbers as hard as they possibly can......

And another poll on stupid gun control laws...

*The Quinnipiac poll, conducted November 11-15 among 1,378 U.S. adults, found 45% back stricter gun laws, while 49% oppose them.*
*That’s down from 54% support for stricter laws in April, Quinnipiac noted, and marks the first time less than 50% have supported more stringent rules since December 2015, when 47% were in favor of them.*









						Support For Stricter Gun Laws Drops Under 50%, Poll Finds — Lowest Rate In 6 Years
					

Support for more gun restrictions has fallen by nine percent since April.




					www.forbes.com


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 22, 2022)

JoeB131 said:


> Yes, I don't want to hear how we can lock people up and make worse criminals... we've been doing that shit for 40 years and have dug ourselves deeper into the hole.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Moron.......news stories barely cover black on black crime, because the democrats don't care about blacks except for a few months every election year.............so when witnesses are murdered or threatened it isn't reported....but the police state witnesses will not help them for fear of retaliation by the gangs and other criminals your slave rapist party, the democrats keep releasing no matter how many gun crimes they commit.

Remember joe....you call our Founders slave rapists...then you actually vote for the democrat party, the political party that was created by 2 slave owners, who, by your very own rhetoric, are slave rapists...you vote for the slave rapist party, the party that releases violent killers into black communities.......


----------



## Abatis (Jan 22, 2022)

JoeB131 said:


> Yes, I don't want to hear how we can lock people up and make worse criminals... we've been doing that shit for 40 years and have dug ourselves deeper into the hole.



Well, your model is the current tactic; a retreat from incarceration and we have seen gun homicide explode.  So, congratulations???



JoeB131 said:


> Actually, most Americans favor stricter gun control.



And here you go again with you supporting your position with misrepresentation.

The support for gun control is at least 9 points lower than what your 2.5 year old graphic shows.  *The article at 538 that that graphic was created for* cites an October 2018 Gallup poll which showed 61% of Americans supported stricter gun laws.

The latest Gallup poll (October 2021) puts that "_supports stricter gun control_" number at 52%.

Additionally, between the '18 and '21 polling, the "_keep the laws as they are_" rose from 30% to 35% and those who think "_the laws should be *less* strict"_ rose from 8% to 11%.












						Guns
					

Do you have a gun in your home? In general, do you feel that the laws covering the sale of firearms should be made more strict, less strict, or kept as they are now? Do you think there should or should not be a law that would ban the possession of handguns, except by the police and other...




					news.gallup.com
				







JoeB131 said:


> That number would be higher if they realized how lax our gun laws are.



I agree that people have a poor understanding of what the laws in force *NOW* are; I also believe they do not understand what the effect of proposed laws would be_* if *_enacted . . .   If they had fuller knowledge and understanding of both, the support for "_stricter gun control_" would be lower, not higher. We saw this drop in support for the Manchin-Toomey Universal Background Check Bill; once people found out it would require complete gun and owner registration to work, support dropped like a rock.

And then the House did their usual, believing it more important to poke the NRA in the eye and blame law-abiding gun owners, so even *Manchin dropped his support for what his bill became*.

This talk of polling is all a pointless exercise of course; fundamental rights are not subject to public opinion, they are not subject to popular vote . . . so you can just go pound sand.



JoeB131 said:


> I agree. People need to stand up to the Gun Industry..



You don't know what you don't know and you think that makes you smart.



JoeB131 said:


> Except you've never given an example of someone who was killed as a witness...  Come on, if this is the reason then you should be EASILY able to name someone who was murdered for being a witness against the gang-bangers.



The plain fact is, the links I provided show that protecting witnesses from retaliation and intimidation is a primary endeavor for DA's . . .  That the funding for protection and relocation needs to be radically expanded, shows the threat to be real.

Maybe you were intimidated by three links; here's just one, from Philadelphia's Public Broadcasting station; not a right-leaning source:









						Philly anti-violence activists: Crime witnesses need more help
					

The conviction rates for nonfatal shootings and illegal gun possession are decidedly low in Philadelphia. One of the problems: Witnesses aren’t showing up to court.




					whyy.org
				






JoeB131 said:


> People don't speak up because they don't trust a police department that gave John Burge and Jason van Dyke badges...



No, it has much more to do with DA's not prosecuting violent offenders and victims and witnesses knowing the offender will be released from custody and will only ever see the inside of a prison cell by divine providence, and even then, it will take years to happen.

.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 22, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Yeah...no....after the democrat party declared war on the police in 2015, and then sent their brown shirts, blm and antifa not only to burn minority neighborhoods, but now into the suburbs.....most Americans see them for what they are and have decided gun control is only for suckers........



Actually, a majority STILL supports gun control... and frankly, it would be higher if people realized how lax the gun laws actually are.  

We have spikes whenever we have a mass shooting, and people ask themselves for a minute, "How did this crazy person get a gun".  Unfortunately, people don't keep asking the question. 




2aguy said:


> Moron.......news stories barely cover black on black crime, because the democrats don't care about blacks except for a few months every election year.............so when witnesses are murdered or threatened it isn't reported....but the police state witnesses will not help them for fear of retaliation by the gangs and other criminals your slave rapist party, the democrats keep releasing no matter how many gun crimes they commit.



So you really don't have a single case of a witness being murdered, do you?  Because I am sure you looked.  

In fact, if you type "Witness Murdered" into Google, the main story you get is that someone who saw Amber Guyver kill Botham Gene was murdered.  



2aguy said:


> Remember joe....you call our Founders slave rapists...then you actually vote for the democrat party, the political party that was created by 2 slave owners, who, by your very own rhetoric, are slave rapists...you vote for the slave rapist party, the party that releases violent killers into black communities.......



Todays Democrats have little or nothing to do with the party of Jefferson, any more than REpublicans are the party of Lincoln.  Heck, I think we have more than a few Right Wingers who use pictures of John Wilkes Booth as their avatar on here. 



Abatis said:


> Well, your model is the current tactic; a retreat from incarceration and we have seen gun homicide explode. So, congratulations???



Um, yeah, you flood the streets with guns and then lock people up with their families, they are going to start shooting each other over who drank the last can of Milwaukee's Best. 



Abatis said:


> The plain fact is, the links I provided show that protecting witnesses from retaliation and intimidation is a primary endeavor for DA's . . . That the funding for protection and relocation needs to be radically expanded, shows the threat to be real.



Except for the lack of cases where it actually happens...   Hey, maybe Prosecutors need a fund to protect against Rabid Unicorn Attacks!!! 



Abatis said:


> No, it has much more to do with DA's not prosecuting violent offenders and victims and witnesses knowing the offender will be released from custody and will only ever see the inside of a prison cell by divine providence, and even then, it will take years to happen.



We lock up 2 million people.  Locking people up doesn't get you to safety. 

The problem is, we lock up the poor fool who engaged in shoplifting because he couldn't raise bail, while the gangbanger who maybe shot someone can make bail when his homies pass the hat.  So how about this.  We let the people go who didn't commit serious crimes, and we lock up the dangerous ones without bail.


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 22, 2022)

JoeB131 said:


> Actually, a majority STILL supports gun control... and frankly, it would be higher if people realized how lax the gun laws actually are.
> 
> We have spikes whenever we have a mass shooting, and people ask themselves for a minute, "How did this crazy person get a gun".  Unfortunately, people don't keep asking the question.
> 
> ...




Gun laws are not lax....what is lax is the democrat party and their policy of releasing violent gun offenders..........when we catch gun criminals we have all the laws we need to put them in jail...our problem is that your political party, the party created by slave owning rapists....as you call them........releases gun criminals within 48 hours of capture.....often doing this even for murder ......

Mass public shooters....are usually known to the police since they have contacts with them because of their behavior.....and the police fail to act.....it has nothing to do with any normal person who owns a gun...

We have over 330 million people in the U.S....how many mass public shootings were there in 2020?

*6

6 people out of 330 million......

How many people were killed in total by these shooters?

43....

To put that number in perspective....*

Deer kill 200 people a year

Ladders kill 300 people allow

lawn mowers 90-100 people a year

bathtubs kill 350 people a year...

You want to use mass public shootings to push gun control because those are the only kind of shootings normal people fear.....because morons like you in the democrat party controlled press and media push the coverage of any mass public shooting 24/7 even though, as the actual numbers show, they are the rarest of rare events......and Deer kill more people every single year than mass public shooters do......

We need more Deer control...

The democrat party is still and will always be the party of actual racism....from the beginning of it's founding by slave owners, the democrat party has used racism to grab power....and it still does so today, as it attempts to resegregate society by skin color....separate dorm rooms, separate graduations, isolating blacks from whites in every area of society where they have control.......that's on you and your slave owning political party.

The guy shoplifting isn't the guy the democrats are releasing who are shooting people........you have to explain how guys caught with illegal guns, over and over again, and even caught shooting at other people with those guns, are released on bail within 48 hours of being captured...

You don't want to address that because that is the real gun problem....the democrat party releasing violent gun offenders........you need those guys on the street shooting people to push your gun control agenda.


----------



## Abatis (Jan 22, 2022)

JoeB131 said:


> Actually, a majority STILL supports gun control... and frankly, it would be higher if people realized how lax the gun laws actually are.



And again, your entire focus on polling is absurd and anti-constitutional; fundamental rights are not at all dependent on public polling or subject to any vote.

"The very purpose of the Bill of Rights was to withdraw certain subjects  from the vicissitudes of political controversy, to place them beyond the reach  of majorities and officials and to establish them as legal principles to be  applied by the courts. One's right to life, liberty, and property, to free  speech, a free press, freedom of worship and assembly, and other fundamental  rights may not be submitted to vote they depend on the outcome of no  elections."​​_West Virginia State Bd. of Ed. v. Barnette_, 319 U.S. 624, 638 (1943)​​


JoeB131 said:


> We have spikes whenever we have a mass shooting, and people ask themselves for a minute, "How did this crazy person get a gun".  Unfortunately, people don't keep asking the question.



They stop asking when people find out the "how" is really because of failures in the system (the shooter was able to get a gun because of gov't. negligence, he was never entered into NICS -- see _*Devin Patrick Kelley*_) and by authorities following hug-a-thug leftist policy shielding the shooter -- see *Nikolas Cruz*) and that none of the "gun control" being promoted / demanded would *ever* impact that one or similar situations. 

That's why support for gun control tails off . . .



JoeB131 said:


> Um, yeah, you flood the streets with guns and then lock people up with their families, they are going to start shooting each other over who drank the last can of Milwaukee's Best.



Is that really what you think most gun murders are?



JoeB131 said:


> Except for the lack of cases where it actually happens...   Hey, maybe Prosecutors need a fund to protect against Rabid Unicorn Attacks!!!



Again, that the witness protection programs exist and requests are being made to expand funding, proves the threat to harm witnesses is real.

Here's a real-life one:









						North Philly man is charged with killing a witness who testified against him in a Montgomery County shooting case
					

Gerard Gethers shot Jerry White, 34, in broad daylight on Nov. 3, prosecutors said.




					www.inquirer.com
				






JoeB131 said:


> We lock up 2 million people.  Locking people up doesn't get you to safety.



Not punishing crime emboldens disdain for the law both in criminals and the citizenry.



JoeB131 said:


> So how about this.  We let the people go who didn't commit serious crimes, and we lock up the dangerous ones without bail.



What about people who violate any one of he myriad of new statutory gun laws you want to enact?  I would expect you would support summary extra-judicial execution for anyone so bold as to claim their rights to possess and use guns for lawful purposes -- of course you don't believe any lawful purposes exist, so warm-up he bulldozers, your idea of justice becomes self-fulfilling.

You're not against guns, you just want them all in in the control and command of your fellow ideologues; be sure to duck, brain splatter can stain.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 23, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Gun laws are not lax....what is lax is the democrat party and their policy of releasing violent gun offenders..........when we catch gun criminals we have all the laws we need to put them in jail...our problem is that your political party, the party created by slave owning rapists....as you call them........releases gun criminals within 48 hours of capture.....often doing this even for murder ......



If Joker Holmes can walk into a gun store with his orange hair and buy an AR and a 100 round clip, then our gun laws are lax.  

We don't have enough jail cells to hold the real criminals, much less "Black people who think the Second Amendment might apply to them".  



Abatis said:


> And again, your entire focus on polling is absurd and anti-constitutional; fundamental rights are not at all dependent on public polling or subject to any vote.


Quite the contrary, there are no rights.  There are only privileges that society tolerates.  The problem is the NRA has gotten so good at bullying the rest of us that we tolerate its bad behavior.  



Abatis said:


> They stop asking when people find out the "how" is really because of failures in the system (the shooter was able to get a gun because of gov't. negligence, he was never entered into NICS -- see _*Devin Patrick Kelley*_) and by authorities following hug-a-thug leftist policy shielding the shooter -- see *Nikolas Cruz*) and that none of the "gun control" being promoted / demanded would *ever* impact that one or similar situations.



Yes, background checks are weak because the NRA has fought to keep them weak.  That's why I say what we really need to do is allow the victims of gun violence to sue the gun makers and gun sellers.  they'll clean up their act after that.  



Abatis said:


> Not punishing crime emboldens disdain for the law both in criminals and the citizenry.



We lock up 2 million people, most for non-violent offenses...  If locking people up prevented crime, we'd have the lowest crime rates in the free world, not the highest. 

We need to address the underlying causes of crime- poverty, racism, addiction, mental illness and gun proliferation. 



Abatis said:


> What about people who violate any one of he myriad of new statutory gun laws you want to enact? I would expect you would support summary extra-judicial execution for anyone so bold as to claim their rights to possess and use guns for lawful purposes -- of course you don't believe any lawful purposes exist, so warm-up he bulldozers, your idea of justice becomes self-fulfilling.



Yeah, because the government respects your rights... when you are WHITE in this country.  

I don't mind pulling a Waco on the real crazies.   



Heh, heh, heh


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 23, 2022)

Abatis said:


> And again, your entire focus on polling is absurd and anti-constitutional; fundamental rights are not at all dependent on public polling or subject to any vote.
> 
> "The very purpose of the Bill of Rights was to withdraw certain subjects  from the vicissitudes of political controversy, to place them beyond the reach  of majorities and officials and to establish them as legal principles to be  applied by the courts. One's right to life, liberty, and property, to free  speech, a free press, freedom of worship and assembly, and other fundamental  rights may not be submitted to vote they depend on the outcome of no  elections."​​_West Virginia State Bd. of Ed. v. Barnette_, 319 U.S. 624, 638 (1943)​​
> 
> ...





JoeB131 said:


> If Joker Holmes can walk into a gun store with his orange hair and buy an AR and a 100 round clip, then our gun laws are lax.
> 
> We don't have enough jail cells to hold the real criminals, much less "Black people who think the Second Amendment might apply to them".
> 
> ...




Wah, Wah, Wah...that is all you have....tears and fears.......

Mass public shootings in 2021....

6

6 people out of over 330 million people committed acts of mass public shooting.

How many were killed?

Total.....43


For some reality and perspective....

Knives are used to murder over 1,500 people every single year....

Lawn mowers kill between 90-100 people every single year

Deer kill 200 people every single year

Ladders kill 300 people every year

bathtubs kill 350 people every single year....

Demanding that over 600 million guns be banned, and that over 21.5 million Americans who legally carry guns in public for self defense have their guns taken from them because 6 people out of over 330 million people used guns illegally ....?

That is just stupid and dumb................


----------



## Abatis (Jan 23, 2022)

JoeB131 said:


> Quite the contrary, there are no rights.  There are only privileges that society tolerates.



You say that as if it means anything.  Meanwhile, the "right to keep and bear arms" is being recognized, affirmed, reaffirmed and certainly enforced, which means governments are held powerless to act against the right.  I can't wait for June . . .




JoeB131 said:


> The problem is the NRA has gotten so good at bullying the rest of us that we tolerate its bad behavior.



The beliefs and principles the NRA supports are not of the NRA's design or origin.



JoeB131 said:


> Yes, background checks are weak because the NRA has fought to keep them weak.



They are weak because government is incompetent.  The database is a joke and the mandate for states and entities that adjudicate, is not enforced (even after multiple new laws by Congress and multiple EO's and EA's by multiple Presidents trying to force them to report).

Does it look like all prohibitory records are represented in the database?







JoeB131 said:


> That's why I say what we really need to do is allow the victims of gun violence to sue the gun makers and gun sellers.  they'll clean up their act after that.



Well, that's pure fantasy.



JoeB131 said:


> We lock up 2 million people, most for non-violent offenses...  If locking people up prevented crime, we'd have the lowest crime rates in the free world, not the highest.



My point was, let's just rip the laws that you really don't care about anymore, out of the book.



JoeB131 said:


> We need to address the underlying causes of crime- poverty, racism, addiction, mental illness and gun proliferation.



Democrats have been trying that since Johnson, funneling trillions from the federal government to the liberal cities where POC are warehoused in high-crime ghettos with no economic opportunity and their bodies are stacked in the morgues like cordwood.

The local elected officials have for years embraced your top-down reforms written by leftist academics and restorative justice warriors and implemented by -_promise-everything-deliver-nothing_- liberal politicians and their politically correct appointees.

Those politicians have their heads in the $$$ trough and then cow-tow to unions that resist any reform, be it teachers or police or other public services.  The end is always the same, brutal cops, failing schools and decrepit infrastructure . . .  And then the best part, come election time, point to the failures and blame conservatives / Republicans who have had no input or direction in implementing or directing any policies in these urban hellholes.



JoeB131 said:


> Yeah, because the government respects your rights... when you are WHITE in this country.








JoeB131 said:


> I don't mind pulling a Waco on the real crazies.
> View attachment 591756
> Heh, heh, heh



Of course you would.

Skull ventilating, burning and bulldozing is the leftist modus operandi


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 23, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Wah, Wah, Wah...that is all you have....tears and fears.......
> 
> Mass public shootings in 2021....


As of December 2021, 689 (of which 303 resulted in zero deaths) fit the Mass Shooting Tracker project criterion, leaving 702 people dead and 2,823 injured, for a total of 3,525 total victims, some including the shooter(s).






						List of mass shootings in the United States in 2021 - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				






Abatis said:


> You say that as if it means anything. Meanwhile, the "right to keep and bear arms" is being recognized, affirmed, reaffirmed and certainly enforced, which means governments are held powerless to act against the right. I can't wait for June . . .



I sure that another bad SCOTUS decision will make you wank for days... but people are getting fed up with the gun fetishist and the carnage they are causing. 2021 was a record year for murders... 



Abatis said:


> They are weak because government is incompetent. The database is a joke and the mandate for states and entities that adjudicate, is not enforced (even after multiple new laws by Congress and multiple EO's and EA's by multiple Presidents trying to force them to report).
> 
> Does it look like all prohibitory records are represented in the database?



That's a good argument for stronger laws that you would oppose..  



Abatis said:


> Of course you would.
> 
> Skull ventilating, burning and bulldozing is the leftist modus operandi



The Davidians could have walked out of that complex at any time.   

Just remember the Right Wing Mantra - George Floyd had it coming, but David Koresh is a martyr after he molested kids and killed four ATF Agents.


----------



## Abatis (Jan 24, 2022)

JoeB131 said:


> I sure that another bad SCOTUS decision will make you wank for days...



LOL.  I will celebrate the Constitution being enforced and illegitimate laws being invalidated.

You should *listen / read the oral arguments in NYSRPA*,  the SCOTUS Justices won't be crafting any groundbreaking decision; statements by the lawyers arguing for NY have guaranteed this case will be landmark and further reaching than just the question of NY's requirements for a carry license.

Not that you will understand the implications but the bullshit "two-tier test" invented and employed by liberal Circuit courts will be destroyed.  All the decisions by multiple Circuits sustaining "assault weapon" bans and "large capacity" magazine bans (and yes, NY's carry restrictions) will be held wrongly decided.



JoeB131 said:


> but people are getting fed up with the gun fetishist and the carnage they are causing. 2021 was a record year for murders...



And again, rights do not depend on the whims of the constitutionally ignorant public.  Yes, there will be hysterics and hand-wringing by leftists who have been lied to; you should be mad at the people who have deceived you, not SCOTUS forcing government to operate within the confines of the Constitution.



JoeB131 said:


> That's a good argument for stronger laws that you would oppose..



No, it's an argument to enforce the laws we have on the books now.



JoeB131 said:


> The Davidians could have walked out of that complex at any time.



Which they did every week.  Koresh regularly went into town, the assault wasn't needed and was the worst thing to do against a group fed persecution theories and a leader spouting apocalyptic prophesy . . .  Especially when the FBI knew Koresh was working on his seven seals treatise and the assault was so poorly planned that there was no fire plan, even though incendiary gas devices were in the plan.

You shouldn't waste your time trying to bullshit me about Waco . . .

Koresh knew the FBI was looking at him, FBI agents visited the compound months before.  On Feb 19, 1993 they visited for the singular purpose of shooting guns with Koresh, bringing AR-15's onto the compound . . .  In the hopes that Koresh would discuss or even show, illegally modified AR's or AK's.  Christ, they thought Koresh was so dangerous one of the agents (Robert Rodriguiz) let Koresh and two other Davidians shoot his duty weapon, a Les Baer FBI-HRT .38 Super . . .







JoeB131 said:


> Just remember the Right Wing Mantra - George Floyd had it coming, but David Koresh is a martyr after he molested kids and killed four ATF Agents.



You fail at keeping your mind centered on provable facts, you really suck at conjuring thoughts and invented beliefs and positions for other people.


----------



## Captain Caveman (Jan 24, 2022)

Abatis said:


> You really are a joke.  You espouse beliefs in direct opposition to the legal foundations and current operations of the US government which makes necessary your use of fake stats which you use to support and promote public policy that is unconstitutional and plain stupid.
> 
> You are a walking, talkng trifecta of idiocy.
> 
> ...


That's all the gun nuts have, the Constitution, they have no rational debate for the plethora of gun types, sizes etc.. Try to restrict the size, type, reloading of some guns, the fucking retarded copy and paste mouth frothing starts.


----------



## Abatis (Jan 24, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> That's all the gun nuts have, the Constitution, they have no rational debate for the plethora of gun types, sizes etc.. Try to restrict the size, type, reloading of some guns, the fucking retarded copy and paste mouth frothing starts.


The legitimate power to restrict the civilian possession and use of guns is very narrow.  For you to prattle on about a lack of discussion focused on the minutia of what you aren't allowed to do, is useless and absurd.


----------



## Captain Caveman (Jan 24, 2022)

Abatis said:


> The legitimate power to restrict the civilian possession and use of guns is very narrow.  For you to prattle on about a lack of discussion focused on the minutia of what you aren't allowed to do, is useless and absurd.


The types of guns gun nuts have is simple, they like guns. It's the only reason, but they prattle on about self defence of themselves and their family. And they believe increasing guns reduces the stats. You can't fix stoopid with that.


----------



## Abatis (Jan 24, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> The types of guns gun nuts have is simple, they like guns. It's the only reason, but they prattle on about self defence of themselves and their family. And they believe increasing guns reduces the stats. You can't fix stoopid with that.



"Stoopid" is some some Euro-Weenie statist authoritarian feeling a US citizen owes them an explanation or justification for exercising our right to arms.

.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jan 24, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> That's all the gun nuts have, the Constitution, they have no rational debate for the plethora of gun types, sizes etc..


Unsupportable nonsense.
There are innumerable legals uses for a firearm - and thus, innumberable purposes for same.
The effective pursuit of these purposes, by their inherent nature, requires a wide range of firearms and calibers.


Captain Caveman said:


> Try to restrict the size, type, reloading of some guns, the fucking retarded copy and paste mouth frothing starts.


Now that you have insulted someone and, inexplicably, feel better about yourself....
The constitution protects the right to own and use all bearable arms -- as such, there no rational reason to allow unecessary and ineffective restrictions on -any- of them.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jan 24, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> The types of guns gun nuts have is simple, they like guns. It's the only reason,


It does  not matter how many times you repeat your unsupportable nonsense  - you're still wrong.


----------



## Captain Caveman (Jan 24, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> It does  not matter how many times you repeat your unsupportable nonsense  - you're still wrong.


I'm sitting back leaving you guys to it. As the days pass, each gun nut just has to come back to get another word in. When I see these names in my alerts, I chuckle, then tag the alert as read. I'll catch up one day, but it's fun watching you seething.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jan 24, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> I'm sitting back leaving you guys to it.


Fact remains:
It does not matter how many times you repeat your unsupportable nonsense  - you're still wrong.
I'm glad you're comfortable with it.

And let us know when you have a meaningful response to post # 82,'


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 24, 2022)

Abatis said:


> LOL. I will celebrate the Constitution being enforced and illegitimate laws being invalidated.



Yeah, fuck those people who get killed, right?  



Abatis said:


> And again, rights do not depend on the whims of the constitutionally ignorant public. Yes, there will be hysterics and hand-wringing by leftists who have been lied to; you should be mad at the people who have deceived you, not SCOTUS forcing government to operate within the confines of the Constitution.



The constitution is not a suicide pact.  SCOTUS ignored 200 years of precedent to come up with the bizarre Heller ruling. 



Abatis said:


> Which they did every week. Koresh regularly went into town, the assault wasn't needed and was the worst thing to do against a group fed persecution theories and a leader spouting apocalyptic prophesy . . . Especially when the FBI knew Koresh was working on his seven seals treatise and the assault was so poorly planned that there was no fire plan, even though incendiary gas devices were in the plan.


Arresting Koresh wasn't the point of the raid.  The point was to seize the guns he was selling to shady people at gun shows with the gun show loophole.  




Abatis said:


> Koresh knew the FBI was looking at him, FBI agents visited the compound months before. On Feb 19, 1993 they visited for the singular purpose of shooting guns with Koresh, bringing AR-15's onto the compound . . . In the hopes that Koresh would discuss or even show, illegally modified AR's or AK's. Christ, they thought Koresh was so dangerous one of the agents (Robert Rodriguiz) let Koresh and two other Davidians shoot his duty weapon, a Les Baer FBI-HRT .38 Super . . .



You realize that it was the ATF, _NOT_ the FBI investigating him, right?


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 25, 2022)

JoeB131 said:


> As of December 2021, 689 (of which 303 resulted in zero deaths) fit the Mass Shooting Tracker project criterion, leaving 702 people dead and 2,823 injured, for a total of 3,525 total victims, some including the shooter(s).
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Wrong.........Mother Jones, the left wing, rabid, anti-gun news group uses the actual definition and does not pad the numbers with gang drive by shootings...

According to Mother Jones, using the FBI definition of a mass public shooting, the definition every American understands to be the definition....

US mass shootings, 1982–2021: Data from Mother Jones’ investigation

Dating back to at least 2005, the FBI and leading criminologists essentially defined a mass shooting as a single attack in a public place in which four or more victims were killed. We adopted that baseline for fatalities when we gathered data in 2012 on three decades worth of cases. 
-------


Here is a description of the criteria we use:

The perpetrator took the lives of at least four people. A 2008 FBI report identifies an individual as a mass murderer—versus a spree killer or a serial killer—if he kills four or more people in a single incident (not including himself), typically in a single location. (*In 2013, the US government’s fatality baseline was revised down to three; our database reflects this change beginning from Jan. 2013, as detailed above.)
The killings were carried out by a lone shooter. (Except in the case of the Columbine massacre and the Westside Middle School killings, which involved two shooters.)
The shootings occurred in a public place. (Except in the case of a party on private property in Crandon, Wisconsin, and another in Seattle, where crowds of strangers had gathered, essentially constituting a public crowd.)* Crimes primarily related to gang activity or armed robbery are not included, nor are mass killings that took place in private homes (often stemming from domestic violence).*
Perpetrators who died or were wounded during the attack are not included in the victim tallies.
We included a handful of cases also known as “spree killings“—cases in which the killings occurred in more than one location, but still over a short period of time, that otherwise fit the above criteria.
----------------------
Our research focused on indiscriminate rampages in public places resulting in four or more victims killed by the attacker. We exclude shootings stemming from more conventionally motivated crimes such as armed robbery or gang violence. (Or in which the perpetrators have not been identified.) Other news outlets and researchers have since published larger tallies that include a wide range of gun crimes in which four or more people have been either wounded or killed. While those larger datasets of multiple-victim shootings are useful for studying the broader problem of gun violence, our investigation provides an in-depth look at a distinct phenomenon—from the firearms used and mental health factors to the growing copycat problem. Tracking mass shootings is complex; we believe ours is the most useful approach for studying this specific phenomenon.



---------
The actual number of mass shootings from Mother Jones......

Here you go...the number of mass public shootings according to Mother Jones...rabid, anti gun, left wing news source.....not the NRA...

The list below comes from the old definition of 4 killed to make a shooting a mass shooting...if you now go to the link there are more than listed below...but that is because Mother Jones changed the list from the time I first posted it...and changed to obama's new standard of only 3 dead to make a mass shooting...



US Mass Shootings, 1982-2015: Data From Mother Jones' Investigation

2021...6
2020....2

2019....10

2018... 12

2017:  11 ( 5 according to the old standard)

2016....6

2015....4 ( obama's new standard....7)

2014....2 (4)

2013....5

2012....7

2011....3

2010....1

2009....4

2008....3

2007....4

2006....3

2005...2

2004....1

2003...1

2002 not listed so more than likely 0

2001....1

2000....1

1999....5

1998...3

1997....2

1996....1

1995...1

1994...1

1993...4

1992...2

1991...3

1990...1

1989...2

1988....1

1987...1

1986...1

1985... not listed so probably 0

1984...2

1983...not listed so probably 0

1982...1
US Mass Shootings, 1982-2015: Data From Mother Jones' Investigation

*US Mass Shootings, 1982-2015: Data From Mother Jones' Investigation*




Deaths in actual mass public shootings... ( someone do the math and tell us what percent of 10,235 the number 73 equals.....)

*Deer kill 200 people a year.....

Lawn mowers between 90-100 people a year....

Ladders 300 people a year....

bathtubs 350 people a year...

Cars killed over 39,000 people in 2019...


 Total number of people killed in mass public shootings by year...

*
2021...43
2020....5
2019....73
2018.....93
2017........117
*2016......71*
2015......37
2014..... 9
2013..... 36
2012..... 72
2011..... 19
2010....9
2009...39
2008...18
2007...54
2006...21
2005...17
2004...5
2003...7
2002...not listed by mother jones
2001...5
2000...7
1999...42
1998...14
1997...9
1996...6
1995...6
1994....5
1993...23
1992...9
1991...35
1990...10
1989...15
1988...7
1987...6
1986...15
1985...(none listed)
1984...28
1983 (none listed)
1982...8


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 25, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Wrong.........Mother Jones, the left wing, rabid, anti-gun news group uses the actual definition and does not pad the numbers with gang drive by shootings...



THese dead people don't count, they're black... I mean Gang members....


----------



## Abatis (Jan 28, 2022)

JoeB131 said:


> Yeah, fuck those people who get killed, right?



That's up to your political comrades.  Will they be smart enough to devise responses to criminal activity that no longer implicates the rights of law abiding citizens? 



JoeB131 said:


> The constitution is not a suicide pact.



I would love for you to explain your reasoning for that statement.  

I agree wholeheartedly, the Constitution is _*not*_ a suicide pact for* "WE THE PEOPLE"*, but your ideas make it so.  Your ideas declare government's power is nearly absolute and unquestionable.  You are arguing that no matter how far government wanders from the confines of the Constitution and the principles of government's establishment, the people must suffer whatever indignities and affronts this mutated government dishes out.

I say bullshit to whatever politically corrupt statist authoritarian interpretation you conjure granting government limitless power.  Please try to explain what YOU mean when you say, "_the constitution is not a suicide pact_".




JoeB131 said:


> SCOTUS ignored 200 years of precedent to come up with the bizarre Heller ruling.



That's just dumb and devoid of any knowledge of SCOTUS precedent and the genesis of the various 'collective right' perversions inserted in the lower federal courts in 1942.  Every "fact" point in your statement is a lie.  

The point of why I suggested, that you listen to / read the oral arguments in NYSRPA is that your interpretation is dead, nobody argues the "200 years of precedent" and "militia right" goofiness anymore except for ignorant anti-gun loudmouths on the internet, hopelessly stuck in a time warp.  Nobody actually defending gun control breathes a syllable of that BS, either in briefs or argument.



JoeB131 said:


> Arresting Koresh wasn't the point of the raid.  The point was to seize the guns he was selling to shady people at gun shows with the gun show loophole.



The point of the raid was to show that the ATF had some balls; all it proved was they had no brains.



JoeB131 said:


> You realize that it was the ATF, _NOT_ the FBI investigating him, right?



The gun offenses were the pretense, it was a Janet Reno directed DoJ fiasco and there were different agencies involved from the beginning, with the FBI taking complete operational control after the ATF screwed the pooch.  

.


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 28, 2022)

Abatis said:


> That's up to your political comrades.  Will they be smart enough to devise responses to criminal activity that no longer implicates the rights of law abiding citizens?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Are you talking Waco?   One of the primary reasons for the raid was the ATF budget....they wanted a big, splashy raid in order to be able to ask for more money.......we know this because it was reported koresh often walked into town all by himself to get icecream, on a weekly basis...they could have arrested him without killing those children at any time..


Just so you know.....I read your posts as soon as I see them....along with the other conservatives...I enjoy when you take joe apart....that's great...


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 29, 2022)

Abatis said:


> I agree wholeheartedly, the Constitution is _*not*_ a suicide pact for* "WE THE PEOPLE"*, but your ideas make it so. Your ideas declare government's power is nearly absolute and unquestionable. You are arguing that no matter how far government wanders from the confines of the Constitution and the principles of government's establishment, the people must suffer whatever indignities and affronts this mutated government dishes out.



Nobody argued that, buddy.   The problem with you is that you think "government" is this evil entity that wants to destroy you, when in fact, what you really fear is the majority getting sick and tired of the bullshit we have to deal with because you guys won't even agree to the most common sense gun control, like taking guns out of the hands of domestic abusers or doing a meaningful background check.  



Abatis said:


> The gun offenses were the pretense, it was a Janet Reno directed DoJ fiasco and there were different agencies involved from the beginning, with the FBI taking complete operational control after the ATF screwed the pooch.



The FBI took over because the Pedophile Cultists killed four ATF agents serving a legal warrant. 



2aguy said:


> Are you talking Waco? One of the primary reasons for the raid was the ATF budget....they wanted a big, splashy raid in order to be able to ask for more money.......we know this because it was reported koresh often walked into town all by himself to get icecream, on a weekly basis...they could have arrested him without killing those children at any time..



Arresting Koresh was never the point.  The point was to get the guns that he was illegally modifying.  That's why they conducted a LEGAL search of his residence. 

I always find it hilarious that you think that any murder of an unarmed black man is justified, but you think the Davidians were in their rights to murder federal agents serving a legal search warrant. 

The mistake was waiting 43 days for these cultist to come out.  They should have went in the next day.


----------



## watchingfromafar (Jan 29, 2022)

In the wild west anyone carrying a gun in a public place was fined up to $10,000

A public place includes streets, community places and malls.
It is a simple* law*, and our cities should enact this law *now*!!!!!
-


----------



## watchingfromafar (Jan 29, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Wrong.........Mother Jones, the left wing, rabid, anti-gun news group uses the actual definition and does not pad the numbers with gang drive by shootings...
> 
> According to Mother Jones, using the FBI definition of a mass public shooting, the definition every American understands to be the definition....
> 
> ...


Your lengthy comment filled a lot of space while having nothing to do with the topic. I think it is a trump thing.
-


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 29, 2022)

watchingfromafar said:


> In the wild west anyone carrying a gun in a public place was fined up to $10,000
> 
> A public place includes streets, community places and malls.
> It is a simple* law*, and our cities should enact this law *now*!!!!!
> -




Yeah.....the West wasn't what the movies are telling you........

The New York Times Botches America’s History With The Gun

*Second, the idea that “Gun control laws were ubiquitous” in the 19th century is the work of politically motivated historians who cobble together every minor local restriction they can find in an attempt to create the impression that gun control was the norm. If this were true, Kristof wouldn’t need to jump to 1879 to offer his first specific case.*
*
Visitors to Wichita, Kan., had to check their revolvers at police headquarters. As for Dodge City, a symbol of the Wild West, a photo shows a sign on main street in 1879 warning: “The Carrying of Fire Arms Strictly Prohibited.”


This talking point has been trotted out for years because it’s the closest thing anyone can find to resemble gun control in the Old West — a picture. But we don’t even know how rigidly the law was enforced, for how long, or if ever. We certainly don’t know that the guns were dropped off at “police headquarters.”

Dodge City-type ordinances—and those of some other towns—typically applied to the areas north of the “deadline,” which was the railroad tracks and a kind of red-light district. By 1879, Dodge City had nearly 20 businesses licensed to sell liquor and many whorehouses teeming with intoxicated young men. It was reasonable that these businesses wouldn’t want armed men with revolvers packed into their establishments.

However, the men voluntarily abandoned their weapons in exchange for entertainment and drink—just as they do today when entering establishments that prohibit the carrying of firearms. Those weapons were handed back to them when they were done. Not in their wildest imaginations would they have entertained the notion of asking the government for permission—getting a license or undergoing a background check—to own a firearm.
*
*In the rest of the city, as with almost every city in the West, guns were allowed, and people walked around with them freely and openly. They bought them freely and openly. Even children could buy them. A man could buy a Colt or Remington or Winchester, and he could buy as many as he liked without anyone taking notice.*

*
The fact is that in the 19th century there were no statewide or territory-wide gun control laws for citizens, and certainly no federal laws. Nor was there a single case challenging the idea of the individual right of gun ownership. Guns were romanticized in the literature and art, and the era’s greatest engineers designed and sold them. All the while, American leaders continued to praise the Second Amendment as a bulwark against tyranny.

Those who praised this right, incidentally, include numerous post-Civil War civil rights activists, who offered particularly powerful arguments for the importance of the Second Amendment. Most gun-control regulations that did exist, after all, were used for subjugating blacks and Indians.

=========*

Most of the gun control laws in the Old West, if they existed at all, had nothing to do with confiscation or restrictions on gun type. They had more to do with gun use by restricting and prohibiting firing pistols in city streets. And, while few opponents of gun control today would object to limitations on discharging firearms in a busy intersection, gun control laws of this extent were largely unheard of in most American cities. In fact, they were even unusual in the Old West, and using the gun control ordinance from Tombstone as an example, they were proven ineffective.
-----

There were other frontier towns with gun control restrictions similar to Tombstone. Most made it unlawful to carry in the hand or upon the person any deadly weapon _within the limits of said city_, without first obtaining a permit in writing. But, in those towns, as in Tombstone, in the closest equivalents to a “gun-free zone” in the 19th century, such gun control measures did little to stem gun violence, and likely provoked the infamous kerfuffle at the O.K. Corral.
----
Lots of guns, not a lot of crime​Mass violence, like what took place at the O.K. Corral, was actually infrequent. Moreover, the Old West reputation for lawlessness is unwarranted, despite, at times, an elevated number of homicides.

Crime such as rape and robberies occurred at a much lower rate than in modern America — certainly lower than in the 1970s and 1980s, when the nation was wracked by a surge in criminality. It is also worth noting that crime and gun violence has fallen steeply since the 1990s, even as gun ownership has increased dramatically.


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 29, 2022)

watchingfromafar said:


> In the wild west anyone carrying a gun in a public place was fined up to $10,000
> 
> A public place includes streets, community places and malls.
> It is a simple* law*, and our cities should enact this law *now*!!!!!
> -




Tombstone......

Gun Control, 1881

*The ordinance, in this case at least, proved to be almost entirely ineffective. As recounted in the court decision, Sheriff Behan had “demanded of the Clantons and McLaurys that they give up their arms, and … they ‘demurred,’ as he said, and did not do it.”*
*------------
This reliance is misplaced. A brief filed by historians and legal scholars explains that nineteenth-century prohibitions like the one in Tombstone were “unusual” and imposed “in response to transitory conditions.” 


Any “supposed distinction between populated and unpopulated areas, offered to justify heavy restrictions on carrying in the District, is not supported by the existence of handgun carry bans in a handful of mostly small towns in the Wild West, when nearly all major cities had no such laws.”*
*3/5/18*

NRA-ILA: The Myth of Effective Wild West Gun Control Exploded - The Truth About Guns
============


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 29, 2022)

watchingfromafar said:


> Your lengthy comment filled a lot of space while having nothing to do with the topic. I think it is a trump thing.
> -




Yes...you have no response...


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 29, 2022)

JoeB131 said:


> Nobody argued that, buddy.   The problem with you is that you think "government" is this evil entity that wants to destroy you, when in fact, what you really fear is the majority getting sick and tired of the bullshit we have to deal with because you guys won't even agree to the most common sense gun control, like taking guns out of the hands of domestic abusers or doing a meaningful background check.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Hey...dipshit.......the  Janet Reno, Bill clinton and the FBI killed 22 children.....


----------



## watchingfromafar (Jan 29, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Yes...you have no response...


And what did you contribute when you posted--
*Deer kill 200 people a year.....
Lawn mowers between 90-100 people a year....
Ladders 300 people a year....
bathtubs 350 people a year...
Cars killed over 39,000 people in 2019...*

What was your point in posting the above-?
People die from all sorts of things, this we know.
Murder by guns is the OP topic
No offense intended or implied
-


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 29, 2022)

watchingfromafar said:


> And what did you contribute when you posted--
> *Deer kill 200 people a year.....
> Lawn mowers between 90-100 people a year....
> Ladders 300 people a year....
> ...




Yep....and idiots like you want to exploit mass public shootings in order to demand gun confiscation and banning....

Pointing out the actual number of deaths by actual mass public shootings versus other types of deaths, shows that mass public shootings are the rarest of rare events, and that with a total of 43 people murdered in mass public shootings in 2021...a realistic understanding that deer kill 200 people a year, shows that using mass public shootings to justify taking guns away from millions of Americans is just stupid....


----------



## watchingfromafar (Jan 29, 2022)

I heard or read somewhere that eight (8) out of ten (10) murders committed with guns was done by a republicon.

-


----------



## JoeB131 (Jan 30, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Hey...dipshit.......the Janet Reno, Bill clinton and the FBI killed 22 children.....



Except THREE investigations, one led by Republican John Danforth, found the Davidians killed themselves and their children...  

Not that taking out 22 future cultists was a bad thing.   They'd have just grown up to be criminals.... Isn't that the excuse you guys use when cops kill kids?  (Oh, wait, they were white? )


----------



## watchingfromafar (Jan 30, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Yep....and idiots like you want to exploit mass public shootings in order to demand gun confiscation and banning....


*Gun control is nothing new. 

Gun Control Is as Old as the Wild Old West*
Dodge City in 1878 (Wikimedia Commons)

*Contrary to the popular imagination, bearing arms on the frontier was a heavily regulated business*
image: https://thumbs-prod.si-cdn.com/7hLl651L ... 835852.jpg

The “Old West” conjures up all sorts of imagery, but broadly, the term is used to evoke life among the crusty prospectors, threadbare gold panners, madams of brothels, and six-shooter-packing cowboys in small frontier towns – such as Tombstone, Deadwood, Dodge City, or Abilene, to name a few. One other thing these cities had in common: strict gun control laws.

*Laws regulating ownership and carry of firearms*, apart from the U.S. Constitution's Second Amendment, were *passed at a local level rather than by Congress*. “Gun control laws were adopted pretty quickly in these places,” says Winkler*. “Most were adopted by municipal governments exercising self-control and self-determination.”*

The practice was started in Southern states, which *were among the first to enact laws against concealed carry of guns and knives, in the early 1800s. --* The Battle Over the Right to Bear Arms in America, points to an 1840 Alabama court that, in upholding its state ban, ruled it was a state's right to regulate where and how a citizen could carry, and that the state constitution's allowance of personal firearms *“is not to bear arms upon all occasions and in all places.”

Contrary to the popular imagination, bearing arms on the frontier was a heavily regulated business

Dodge City in 1878 *(Wikimedia Commons)
Looking east on Dodge City’s Front Street, 1878.
Dodge City, 1878
*The sign warns visitors to check their guns.*
Buffalo Hide Yard in Dodge City, Kansas 1878
Dodge City Kansas 1874, courtesy Ford County Historical Society

It's *October 26, 1881*, in Tombstone, and Arizona
The laws of Tombstone at the time required visitors, *upon entering town to disarm, either at a hotel or a lawman's office. *(Residents of many famed cattle towns, such as Dodge City, Abilene, and Deadwood, had similar restrictions.)
image: https://public-media.si-cdn.com/fil...d ... lanton.jpg

*"Tombstone had much more restrictive laws on carrying guns in public in the 1880s than it has today,” *Same goes for most of the New West, to varying degrees, in the once-rowdy frontier towns of Nevada, Kansas, Montana, and South Dakota.

*Dodge City, Kansas, formed a municipal government in 1878*. According to Stephen Aron, a professor of history at UCLA, the *first law passed was one prohibiting the carry of guns in town*, likely by civic leaders and influential merchants who wanted people to move there, *Cultivating a reputation of peace and stability was necessary*, even in boisterous towns, if it were to become anything more transient than a one-industry boom town.

*Laws regulating ownership and carry of firearms*, apart from the U.S. Constitution's Second Amendment, were passed at a local level rather than by Congress. “*Gun control laws were adopted pretty quickly in these places*,” says Winkler. “Most were adopted by municipal governments exercising self-control and self-determination.” *Carrying any kind of weapon, guns or knives, was not *allowed other than outside town borders and inside the home. *When visitors left their weapons with a law officer upon entering town, they'd receive a token, like a coat check, which they'd exchange for their guns when leaving town.*

“Having a firearm to protect yourself in the lawless wilderness from wild animals, hostile native tribes, and outlaws was a wise idea. *But when you came into town, you had to either check your guns if you were a visitor or keep your guns at home if you were a resident.”*
Gun Control Is as Old as the Old West

*Did the Wild West Have More Gun Control Than We Do Today?
The answer is YES. When you entered a frontier town, you were legally required to leave your guns at the stables on the outskirts of town or drop them off with the sheriff*, who would give you a token in exchange. You checked your guns then like you’d check your overcoat today at a Boston restaurant in winter. Visitors were welcome, but their guns were not.
While people were allowed to have guns at home for self-protection, frontier towns usually *barred anyone but law enforcement from carrying guns in public.*

When Dodge City residents organized their municipal government, do you know what the very first law they passed was? *A gun control law*. —also *barred the carrying of guns openly*.

Like any law regulating things that are small and easy to conceal, the gun control of the Wild West wasn’t always perfectly enforced. But statistics show that, next to drunk and disorderly conduct, *the most common cause of arrest was illegally carrying a firearm. Sheriffs and marshals took gun control seriously.*
Did the Wild West Have More Gun Control Than We Do Today?

*Illinois town bans assault weapons, will fine those who keep them*
The town of Deerfield, Ill., has moved to *ban assault weapons, including the AR-15* used in the school shooting in Parkland, Florida, claiming the measure will make the town more safe from mass shootings.

*The ordinance was passed unanimously* Monday by the Deerfield Village Board. It states the move is in the best interest of public health and will spur a culture change toward *"the normative value that assault weapons should have no role or purpose in civil society."*

It also takes a swing at a popular reading of the Second Amendment, stating the weapons are *"not reasonably necessary to protect an individual's right of self-defense" *or to preserve a well-regulated militia.
*Illinois town bans assault weapons, will fine those who keep them

Chicago suburb bans assault weapons in response to Parkland shooting*
With the future of federal gun control legislation uncertain, an affluent Chicago suburb this week took the aggressive step of *banning assault weapons within its borders*, in what local officials said was a direct response to the mass shooting at a Parkland, Fla., high school earlier this year.

*Officials in Deerfield, Ill., unanimously approved the ordinance, which prohibits the possession, manufacture or sale of a range of firearms, as well as large-capacity magazines. *Residents of the 19,000-person village have until June 13 to remove the guns from village limits or face up to $1,000 per day in fines.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...h ... db16134355

*Seattle will require gun owners to lock up their firearms*, after the City Council voted unanimously Monday to pass legislation proposed by Mayor Jenny Durkan. Starting 180 days after Durkan signs the legislation, it will be *a civil infraction to store a gun without the firearm being secured in a locked container.*
The legislation will apply only to guns kept somewhere, rather than those carried by or under the control of their owners.
Also under the legislation, *it will be a civil infraction when an owner knows or should know that a minor, “at-risk person” or unauthorized user is likely to access a gun and such a person actually does access the weapon.*

*The legislation allows fines up to $500 when a gun isn’t locked up,
up to $1,000 when a prohibited person accesses a firearm
and up to $10,000 when a prohibited person uses the weapon to hurt someone or commit a crime.
Gun owners face fines up to $10,000 for not locking up their guns under new Seattle law

What has changed from then to now??*​


2aguy said:


> Pointing out the actual number of deaths by actual mass public shootings versus other types of deaths, shows that mass public shootings are the rarest of rare events, and that with a total of 43 people murdered in mass public


You are dodging the point. This is not only about “mass shootings”.

*There were 39,707 deaths from firearms in the U.S. in 2019*_. Sixty percent of deaths from firearms in the U.S. are suicides. In 2019, 23,941 people in the U.S. died by firearm suicide.1 Firearms are the means in approximately half of suicides nationwide._

*In 2019, 14,861 people in the U.S. died from firearm homicide,*_ accounting for 37% of total deaths from firearms. Firearms were the means for about 75% of homicides in 2018.
*There are approximately 115,000 non-fatal firearm injuries in the U.S. each year.*
Facts and Figures_

*The truth will set you free*


2aguy said:


> shootings in 2021...a realistic understanding that deer kill 200 people a year,


We eat deer, only cannibals eat people

*Cannibalism is the act of consuming another individual*_ of the same species as food. Human cannibalism is well documented, both in ancient and in recent times.
Cannibalism - Wikipedia

-_


2aguy said:


> shows that using mass public shootings to justify taking guns away from millions of Americans is just stupid....


Stop with the bla, pba, bla. This is NOT about "mass shootings"
-


----------



## 2aguy (Jan 30, 2022)

watchingfromafar said:


> *Gun control is nothing new.
> 
> Gun Control Is as Old as the Wild Old West*
> Dodge City in 1878 (Wikimedia Commons)
> ...




You are another moron......

The New York Times Botches America’s History With The Gun

Second, the idea that “Gun control laws were ubiquitous” in the 19th century is the work of politically motivated historians who cobble together every minor local restriction they can find in an attempt to create the impression that gun control was the norm. If this were true, Kristof wouldn’t need to jump to 1879 to offer his first specific case.

Visitors to Wichita, Kan., had to check their revolvers at police headquarters. As for Dodge City, a symbol of the Wild West, a photo shows a sign on main street in 1879 warning: “The Carrying of Fire Arms Strictly Prohibited.”


This talking point has been trotted out for years because it’s the closest thing anyone can find to resemble gun control in the Old West — a picture. But we don’t even know how rigidly the law was enforced, for how long, or if ever. We certainly don’t know that the guns were dropped off at “police headquarters.”

Dodge City-type ordinances—and those of some other towns—typically applied to the areas north of the “deadline,” which was the railroad tracks and a kind of red-light district. By 1879, Dodge City had nearly 20 businesses licensed to sell liquor and many whorehouses teeming with intoxicated young men. It was reasonable that these businesses wouldn’t want armed men with revolvers packed into their establishments.
*However, the men voluntarily abandoned their weapons in exchange for entertainment and drink—just as they do today when entering establishments that prohibit the carrying of firearms. Those weapons were handed back to them when they were done. Not in their wildest imaginations would they have entertained the notion of asking the government for permission—getting a license or undergoing a background check—to own a firearm.

In the rest of the city, as with almost every city in the West, guns were allowed, and people walked around with them freely and openly. They bought them freely and openly. Even children could buy them. A man could buy a Colt or Remington or Winchester, and he could buy as many as he liked without anyone taking notice.*


The fact is that in the 19th century there were no statewide or territory-wide gun control laws for citizens, and certainly no federal laws. Nor was there a single case challenging the idea of the individual right of gun ownership. Guns were romanticized in the literature and art, and the era’s greatest engineers designed and sold them. All the while, American leaders continued to praise the Second Amendment as a bulwark against tyranny.

Those who praised this right, incidentally, include numerous post-Civil War civil rights activists, who offered particularly powerful arguments for the importance of the Second Amendment. Most gun-control regulations that did exist, after all, were used for subjugating blacks and Indians.
================

Most of the gun control laws in the Old West, if they existed at all, had nothing to do with confiscation or restrictions on gun type. They had more to do with gun use by restricting and prohibiting firing pistols in city streets. And, while few opponents of gun control today would object to limitations on discharging firearms in a busy intersection, gun control laws of this extent were largely unheard of in most American cities. In fact, they were even unusual in the Old West, and using the gun control ordinance from Tombstone as an example, they were proven ineffective.
-----

There were other frontier towns with gun control restrictions similar to Tombstone. Most made it unlawful to carry in the hand or upon the person any deadly weapon _within the limits of said city_, without first obtaining a permit in writing. 



*But, in those towns, as in Tombstone, in the closest equivalents to a “gun-free zone” in the 19th century, such gun control measures did little to stem gun violence, and likely provoked the infamous kerfuffle at the O.K. Corral.*
----
Lots of guns, not a lot of crime​Mass violence, like what took place at the O.K. Corral, was actually infrequent. Moreover, the Old West reputation for lawlessness is unwarranted, despite, at times, an elevated number of homicides.

Crime such as rape and robberies occurred at a much lower rate than in modern America — certainly lower than in the 1970s and 1980s, when the nation was wracked by a surge in criminality. It is also worth noting that crime and gun violence has fallen steeply since the 1990s, even as gun ownership has increased dramatically.


----------



## watchingfromafar (Jan 30, 2022)

2aguy said:


> You are another moron......


_*It’s Official: Gun Deaths Hit an All-Time High in 2020*
CDC data shows that more than 45,000 Americans died by gunfire for the first time, driven by a spike in homicides.
By Jennifer Mascia Jan 7, 2022_
https://www.thetrace.org/2022/01/gun-violence-homicide-suicide-cdc-data-2020/
2agtoyoutwo
BTW: 
just joking
-


----------



## M14 Shooter (Jan 31, 2022)

watchingfromafar said:


> In the wild west anyone carrying a gun in a public place was fined up to $10,000
> A public place includes streets, community places and malls.
> It is a simple* law*, and our cities should enact this law *now*!!!!!


You know that in most cities, it is perfectly legal to carry a gun.
Right?


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## Blues Man (Jan 31, 2022)

watchingfromafar said:


> *Gun control is nothing new.
> 
> Gun Control Is as Old as the Wild Old West*
> Dodge City in 1878 (Wikimedia Commons)
> ...


And absolutely none of that is reason to tell law abiding citizens they are prohibited from owning a gun.


----------



## Colin norris (Feb 3, 2022)

2aguy said:


> A look at the Crime Victimization Survey shows a decrease in gun crime even as gun murder in democrat party controlled cities is going up....of course, the victims of gun murder are majority criminals shot by other criminals.....
> 
> *But what the media ignores is that the number of violent gun crimes dropped dramatically in 2020. Last October, the US Department of Justice released a study showing victims reported 212,470 gun crimes to police in 2020, a drop of 27% from the 290,790 in 2019. The share of violent crimes committed with guns also fell – by over 30%.*
> 
> ...


I blame Biden for every gun death since 1901. 
None if this escalation happened under a repubmican government.   It's thise irresponsible democrats  with their communist attitude. They allow terror and violence to run wild while all us law abiding citizens cuddle our guns and look on in horror yet do nothing. How strange.


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## 2aguy (Feb 5, 2022)

JoeB131 said:


> Yes, I don't want to hear how we can lock people up and make worse criminals... we've been doing that shit for 40 years and have dug ourselves deeper into the hole.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Moron....

*One of the men, charged this week, allegedly killed a witness who was scheduled to testify against another person who is on our list from 2020.*

*We found the other case while researching information for our recent reporting about murder defendants on electronic monitoring in Chicago. They are the 46th and 47th entries on 2020’s list.*









						Man is charged with killing a murder case witness while on felony bail (The other accused murderer was on bail at the time of that murder, too.)
					

Prosecutors this week charged 19-year-old George Reyes with murdering a man who was a key witness in a murder case against his friend, who was also on felony bail at the time of that alleged murder.




					cwbchicago.com


----------



## woodwork201 (Feb 8, 2022)

JoeB131 said:


> In 2018, 87% of murders in Chicago went unsolved.  They totally proved that Jussie Smollet lied about getting beaten up, though.  So they can actually do investigations when they want to.
> 
> 
> 
> The data is pretty clear.  83% of homicide victims know their killers... it's why the murder rate jumped in 2020 after we all got locked into our houses for a year.



The data doesn't show any such thing.  2570 out of 2870 criminals who murdered black men, or 89.5%, were other black men.  If we extrapolate this crime statistic to white murder statistics, then 89.5 per cent of those who murder white people are black men so the FBI stats are wrong.  They state that 2584 out of 3499 murderers of white people were other white people but our extrapolation shows that 3131 out of 3499 murderers of white people were actually black people.

Of course that's not true, any more than is your extrapolation.  That is the problem with statistical extrapolation: you have to fix a set of known control values across unknown variable values.   If everyone agrees on the fixed control points or if the fixed control points can be proven to be fixed across the variable data point then extrapolation works.  When the fixed point doesn't apply in the same way to the variable point then extrapolation fails.

​*"Over-extrapolation" refers to extrapolating in a reckless, excessive manner, usually by carrying the extrapolation far beyond the known values. For instance, it's probably fairly safe to conclude that the boy in the previous paragraph will weigh approximately 110 pounds in 2022. However, it would probably be over-extrapolating to claim that he will weigh 200 pounds in 2031 when he is 23 years old, and it would certainly be taking the extrapolation too far to conclude that he will weigh 300 pounds in 2041 at the age of 33.*​




__





						Logical Fallacy: Over-Extrapolation
					





					www.fallacyfiles.org


----------



## woodwork201 (Feb 8, 2022)

watchingfromafar said:


> *Gun control is nothing new.
> 
> Gun Control Is as Old as the Wild Old West*
> Dodge City in 1878 (Wikimedia Commons)
> ...



The Courts also upheld slavery.  So what the Courts uphold is not always correct.  You might respond about the 13th Amendment ending that but Biden states that no Amendment, no right, is absolute.  

Do you agree with Joe Biden that the 13th Amendment is not absolute?  Well, of course you do.  You support the open border, sex slavery, slavery of brown people, rape of women and children.  So at least you're consistent; you call for free exceptions to all of the Amendments.


----------



## woodwork201 (Feb 8, 2022)

Abatis said:


> Murders go unsolved because witnesses are either fellow criminals and would rather settle the score themselves, or honest people who have zero confidence in the leftist, hug-a-thug DA to ever actually put the murderer in prison and/or even keep the hug in jail until the trial and keep the witnesses safe.


Murders also go unsolved because lack of connection between the killer and the victim.  When the two know each other or have a connection, good police work far more easily solves the murder. JoeB131, of course, completely lies about this.


----------



## woodwork201 (Feb 8, 2022)

JoeB131 said:


> Actually, a majority STILL supports gun control...


What if the majority supported slavery?


----------



## woodwork201 (Feb 8, 2022)

Captain Caveman said:


> That's all the gun nuts have, the Constitution, they have no rational debate for the plethora of gun types, sizes etc.. Try to restrict the size, type, reloading of some guns, the fucking retarded copy and paste mouth frothing starts.


The Constitution is not the argument for gun rights.  To a degree, the Declaration of Independence is, but even it only points to pre-existing rights; it was just one early document that defined the most fundamental human rights, to the degree that it defined them: the pursuit of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

For instance, the left suggests that the right to life exists in Nicaragua, as well as the right to pursuit of happiness.  If a Nicaraguan finds his life threatened, he has the right to come to America.  If they are unhappy in Nicaragua - for instance, they all have phones but they can't afford the latest iPhone, then they have the right to pursue happiness and iPhones by coming to America.  So, please do not try to deny that the right to life and the right to the pursuit of happiness are not fundamental human rights that apply to everyone in the world.  

If their government is oppressive and they need to escape to obtain liberty, then Nicaraguans can come to America - though, for the life of me, I can't fathom what reason you might give for them coming here seeking liberty.

So, since we agree that the right to life exists, then one must have the means to defend that right.  If they cannot defend it, it cannot exist.

Since we agree that the right to pursuit of happiness exists, then we must have the right to defend/protect our iPhones.  If anyone can simply take our iPhones then how can we be happy?  If anyone can take our iPhone then we never really owned the iPhone in the first place.

And it is this fundamental right to defend our lives and our iPhones that led the Founders to put the 2nd Amendment in the Constitution.  The right to life and the right to liberty and the right to the pursuit of happiness existed before the Declaration of Independence.  The right to keep and bear arms, necessary to defend and safeguard those previously mentioned rights, and other rights not mentioned, existed before the other rights were mentioned in the Declaration of Independence and before the 2nd Amendment appeared in the Bill of Rights.

These fundamental rights are the argument for every type of weapon, size of magazine, fire rate, armor piercing, absolutely deadly form of weapon and ammunition.  To defend my life, to exercise my right to life, I have to have the ability to defeat anyone who might try to end my life.  To pursue happiness, I need to be able to defend the persons and things which make me happy and to defeat any who might try to take them from me.  To defend my liberty, I must have and have access to all of the terrible implements of war that government might try to use against me.  

Now, since I have the weapons to defend all of my rights, the government and I find that I can leverage those to serve as a militia and defend the nation from invasion and insurrection.  As a patriot, as someone who appreciates when the government helps to protect those fundamental rights of mine, I am anxious to make my skills and weapons available in the form of militia service to defend the nation against insurrection and invasion.

So, no, we don't need the Constitution as our argument for all those variations and styles of weapons and accessories.


----------



## watchingfromafar (May 26, 2022)

*Gun murder is up in democrat party cities, but gun crime in general is down....... More guns, less gun crime....*
This is all true and there is little the citizens of America can do about it. In America we have the right to bear arms. It is in our bill of rights as citizens of the USA.
And having said that, there is one power our President has. *Our President is our commander in chief. *He/She is *commander over all our military* divisions.

*The Ar15 was designed and mass-manufactured for our military for the soul purpose of killing fellow human beings.

Ar15s *
Since the AR-15 was designed and manufactured under the direction of *our Commander and Chef*,

the *President of the USA, Joe Biden could order the recall of all military firearms as property of our military.

 I vote for it
How about you--?

-*


----------



## watchingfromafar (May 26, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> And absolutely none of that is reason to tell law-abiding citizens they are prohibited from owning a gun.


This is all true and there is little the citizens of America can do about it. In America, we have the right to bear arms. It is in our bill of rights as citizens of the USA.

And having said that, there is one power our President has that could change this over night. *Our President is our commander in chief. *He/She is *commander over all our military* divisions.

The Ar15 was designed and mass-manufactured* for our military for the sole purpose of killing fellow human beings.
Ar15s *

Since the AR-15 was designed and manufactured under the direction of *our Commander and Chef*,

the *President of the USA, Joe Biden could order the recall of all military firearms as property of our military.
I vote for it

How about you--?*

*-*


----------



## watchingfromafar (May 26, 2022)

sorry, double post
-


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## 2aguy (May 26, 2022)

watchingfromafar said:


> *Gun murder is up in democrat party cities, but gun crime in general is down....... More guns, less gun crime....*
> This is all true and there is little the citizens of America can do about it. In America we have the right to bear arms. It is in our bill of rights as citizens of the USA.
> And having said that, there is one power our President has. *Our President is our commander in chief. *He/She is *commander over all our military* divisions.
> 
> ...




Wrong.......

*The FOIA request itself was prompted from a Nov. 2017 article in The Atlantic in which the magazine, unsurprisingly to anyone familiar with its anti-gun bent, attempted to bolster a claim that “these rifles were meant for the military, not civilians.”*


> *“Colt sent a pilot model rifle (serial no. GX4968) to the BATF for civilian sale approval on Oct. 23, 1963. It was approved on Dec. 10, 1963, and sales of the ‘Model R6000 Colt AR-15 SP1 Sporter Rifle’ began on Jan 2, 1964,” one critic of the article contended. “The M16 wasn’t issued to infantry units until 1965 (as the XM16E1), wasn’t standardized as the M16A1 until 1967, and didn’t officially replace the M14 until 1969.”*






Original ATF AR-15 Classification Refutes Claim that Rifle ‘Not Meant’ for Civilians


----------



## Blues Man (May 26, 2022)

watchingfromafar said:


> This is all true and there is little the citizens of America can do about it. In America, we have the right to bear arms. It is in our bill of rights as citizens of the USA.
> 
> And having said that, there is one power our President has that could change this over night. *Our President is our commander in chief. *He/She is *commander over all our military* divisions.
> 
> ...


The civilian version of an AR 15 isn't a military rifle it is just another run of the mill semiautomatic rifle just like any other.

This AR 15





and this Ranch Rifle




Fire the same round with the same accuracy

The only difference is cosmetic


----------



## watchingfromafar (May 26, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> The civilian version of an AR 15 isn't a military rifle it is just another run of the mill semiautomatic rifle just like any other.
> 
> This AR 15
> View attachment 649894
> ...


Ranch rifle, my asssssss
The commander in chief can order a recall of all military rifles; period
-


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (May 26, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> The civilian version of an AR 15 isn't a military rifle it is just another run of the mill semiautomatic rifle just like any other.
> 
> This AR 15
> View attachment 649894
> ...



I have definitely heard that before and it makes sense.  I guess, then, the only fix is...  well, you already made the case.  Thanks.


----------



## jbander (May 26, 2022)

2aguy said:


> A look at the Crime Victimization Survey shows a decrease in gun crime even as gun murder in democrat party controlled cities is going up....of course, the victims of gun murder are majority criminals shot by other criminals.....
> 
> *But what the media ignores is that the number of violent gun crimes dropped dramatically in 2020. Last October, the US Department of Justice released a study showing victims reported 212,470 gun crimes to police in 2020, a drop of 27% from the 290,790 in 2019. The share of violent crimes committed with guns also fell – by over 30%.*
> 
> ...


If it is from the right, it is a lie or a distortion. There are 19 whole state that are more dangerous than New York all are right wing controlled hate states, That whole fricken states not just city's . The safest cities over 200,000 people in the US are democratic cities. The worst place to raise your children, the places with the highest incidents of rape, the biggest welfare states, the states that depend most on federal  funding. The state with the highest use of food stamps. States with the highest number of hate groups and the highest death rate by guns, ALL IN RIGHT WING RUN HATE STATES. LIVE WITH IT>


----------



## jbander (May 26, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> I have definitely heard that before and it makes sense.  I guess, then, the only fix is...  well, you already made the case.  Thanks.


You have it easy, you only have to convince other stupid people. I vote for any gun that is designed to blow you into two pieces be banned. Then the stupid idiots who get their rocks off by having guns that can do that will be forced to buy guns for a different reason. They can tell the world how big their dick is differently.


----------



## M14 Shooter (May 26, 2022)

watchingfromafar said:


> *The Ar15 was designed and mass-manufactured for our military for the soul purpose of killing fellow human beings.*


False.
The AR15 was designed in 1963 by Colt as a sporting rifle - hunting, target shooting, plinking, whatever.


watchingfromafar said:


> Since the AR-15 was designed and manufactured under the direction of *our Commander and Chef*,
> the *President of the USA, Joe Biden could order the recall of all military firearms as property of our military.*


Only one of my firearms was ever owned by the government, and it isn't getting it back.


----------



## bodecea (May 26, 2022)

2aguy said:


> A look at the Crime Victimization Survey shows a decrease in gun crime even as gun murder in democrat party controlled cities is going up....of course, the victims of gun murder are majority criminals shot by other criminals.....
> 
> *But what the media ignores is that the number of violent gun crimes dropped dramatically in 2020. Last October, the US Department of Justice released a study showing victims reported 212,470 gun crimes to police in 2020, a drop of 27% from the 290,790 in 2019. The share of violent crimes committed with guns also fell – by over 30%.*
> 
> ...


Hit dogs still howling.


----------



## 2aguy (May 26, 2022)

jbander said:


> If it is from the right, it is a lie or a distortion. There are 19 whole state that are more dangerous than New York all are right wing controlled hate states, That whole fricken states not just city's . The safest cities over 200,000 people in the US are democratic cities. The worst place to raise your children, the places with the highest incidents of rape, the biggest welfare states, the states that depend most on federal  funding. The state with the highest use of food stamps. States with the highest number of hate groups and the highest death rate by guns, ALL IN RIGHT WING RUN HATE STATES. LIVE WITH IT>



Moron… the cities in Red states are controlled… completely… by the democrats….you idiot…

Their policies of attacking the police and releasing the most dangerous and violent criminals cause the increased
Violence


----------



## jbander (May 26, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Moron… the cities in Red states are controlled… completely… by the democrats….you idiot…
> 
> Their policies of attacking the police and releasing the most dangerous and violent criminals cause the increased
> Violence





2aguy said:


> Moron… the cities in Red states are controlled… completely… by the democrats….you idiot…
> 
> Their policies of attacking the police and releasing the most dangerous and violent criminals cause the increased
> Violence


You brain-dead moron if that was the case, which it isn't ,then the blues states with also blue cities would be more dangerous, and they are not. -That you dumb lame  micro mind is the point. You people are such dumb fucks that you won't be able to see the reasoning of this point.  To repeat myself, the right has it easy because they only have to convince stupid people of their stupid ideas. This being a prime example.


----------



## jbander (May 26, 2022)

They are fucking idiots.


----------



## jbander (May 26, 2022)

FIRE ARMS DEATH RATE


----------



## marvin martian (May 26, 2022)

2aguy said:


> A look at the Crime Victimization Survey shows a decrease in gun crime even as gun murder in democrat party controlled cities is going up....of course, the victims of gun murder are majority criminals shot by other criminals.....
> 
> *But what the media ignores is that the number of violent gun crimes dropped dramatically in 2020. Last October, the US Department of Justice released a study showing victims reported 212,470 gun crimes to police in 2020, a drop of 27% from the 290,790 in 2019. The share of violent crimes committed with guns also fell – by over 30%.*
> 
> ...



As I've said many times, the SUREST way to die violently in this country is by living in a place run by DemoKKKrats (be it a state, city, neighborhood, or building). The numbers don't lie.


----------



## 2aguy (May 26, 2022)

jbander said:


> You brain-dead moron if that was the case, which it isn't ,then the blues states with also blue cities would be more dangerous, and they are not. -That you dumb lame  micro mind is the point. You people are such dumb fucks that you won't be able to see the reasoning of this point.  To repeat myself, the right has it easy because they only have to convince stupid people of their stupid ideas. This being a prime example.




No...moron....blue cities are dangerous, even in Red States, you doofus...I notice you didn't name the cities, because we have already dont it for you in numerous other threads...we named the cities and pointed to the decades of total democrat party control in those cities...you moron...


----------



## LuckyDuck (May 27, 2022)

2aguy said:


> A look at the Crime Victimization Survey shows a decrease in gun crime even as gun murder in democrat party controlled cities is going up....of course, the victims of gun murder are majority criminals shot by other criminals.....
> 
> *But what the media ignores is that the number of violent gun crimes dropped dramatically in 2020. Last October, the US Department of Justice released a study showing victims reported 212,470 gun crimes to police in 2020, a drop of 27% from the 290,790 in 2019. The share of violent crimes committed with guns also fell – by over 30%.*
> 
> ...


Since gun murders in the Democrat run inner-cities is up, one can look at it as the Democrat base reducing itself.


----------



## Blues Man (May 27, 2022)

watchingfromafar said:


> Ranch rifle, my asssssss
> The commander in chief can order a recall of all military rifles; period
> -


The mini 14 was never a military rifle.

It is a commonplace  small caliber semiautomatic no different than any other semiautomatic rifle that has been available to civilians for over a century now


----------



## Blues Man (May 27, 2022)

jbander said:


> View attachment 650162
> FIRE ARMS DEATH RATE


That includes suicides and suicide is not a crime.  It's a choice that every single person has the absolute right to make


----------



## jbander (May 27, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> That includes suicides and suicide is not a crime.  It's a choice that every single person has the absolute right to make


Do you realize how pitiful that remark is? Killer


----------



## jbander (May 27, 2022)

2aguy said:


> No...moron....blue cities are dangerous, even in Red States, you doofus...I notice you didn't name the cities, because we have already dont it for you in numerous other threads...we named the cities and pointed to the decades of total democrat party control in those cities...you moron...


These people are too stupid to realize that if  their fact that hate party states  are worse off only because of the democratic city's, Then the worst states would of course be democratic states with their democratic city's in them, but that's not  the case, the worst states by far a Hate party states. No comparison. Like I said there are 19 states that have a higher homicide rate than New York, yup you guessed it, they are hate party states. Highest rape numbers, the highest crime rate across the board, The Highest welfare recipients, the highest food stamp recipients, hate party states cost Democratic states massive amounts of money because they take out way more federally then they contribute. Worst States to bring up children, the worst education systems, Most hate groups, The Lowest wages, Then worst health care, And the BEST city's in the US over 200,000 the majority are democratically run city's.


----------



## jbander (May 27, 2022)

If someone wants to take the time to educate these dumb lames, go ahead, I won't, I found out you can't teach brick for brains anything. Be my guest.


----------



## jbander (May 27, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Moron… the cities in Red states are controlled… completely… by the democrats….you idiot…
> 
> Their policies of attacking the police and releasing the most dangerous and violent criminals cause the increased
> Violence


 What a moron, not even close. So if I find one city in a hate party state that is run by democrats, then you are 100% wrong. What an idiot. The best cities in this country, the majority, are run by Democrats,


----------



## Blues Man (May 28, 2022)

jbander said:


> Do you realize how pitiful that remark is? Killer


yes I know you hate the idea of people having choices.

The concept that all people have the absolute right to choose to live or die interferes with your ability to control them


----------



## candycorn (May 28, 2022)

If a mass shooting occurs anywhere in any city, it automatically becomes a democratic city.  Has anyone else noticed this?


----------



## candycorn (May 28, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> yes I know you hate the idea of people having choices.
> 
> The concept that all people have the absolute right to choose to live or die interferes with your ability to control them


Its a shame these kids in school keep choosing to die.  OR are you suggesting a 4th grader should be able to carry concealed too?


----------



## Blues Man (May 29, 2022)

candycorn said:


> Its a shame these kids in school keep choosing to die.  OR are you suggesting a 4th grader should be able to carry concealed too?


I was talking about suicide, Idiot.


----------



## candycorn (May 29, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> I was talking about suicide, Idiot.


Well, it was their choice not to be armed, right idiot?


----------



## Blues Man (May 29, 2022)

candycorn said:


> Well, it was their choice not to be armed, right idiot?


Children don't have that choice, Moron.


----------



## woodwork201 (May 29, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> yes I know you hate the idea of people having choices.
> 
> The concept that all people have the absolute right to choose to live or die interferes with your ability to control them


Actually, jbander and the left do not believe at all in the right of a person to choose to live or die.  60 million deaths a year are supported by jbander and the left.  It's not death they hate,  it's guns they hate.


----------



## jbander (May 29, 2022)

woodwork201 said:


> Actually, jbander and the left do not believe at all in the right of a person to choose to live or die.  60 million deaths a year are supported by jbander and the left.  It's not death they hate,  it's guns they hate.


This is the best he has , 100% wrong and typically stupid. What an ass. Like I said, the right has it easy, all they have to do to get their bullshit across is to tell it to other stupid people, and these maga Maggots will all be slapping them on the back and high-fiving them. There has never been a larger group of dumb fucks in our history.


----------



## jbander (May 29, 2022)

2aguy said:


> No...moron....blue cities are dangerous, even in Red States, you doofus...I notice you didn't name the cities, because we have already dont it for you in numerous other threads...we named the cities and pointed to the decades of total democrat party control in those cities...you moron...


Has anyone explained to this dumb fuck how stupid he is yet.  These people are too stupid to realize that if  their fact that hate party states  are worse off only because of the democratic city's, Then the worst states would of course be democratic states with their democratic city's in them, but that's not  the case, the worst states by far a Hate party states. No comparison. Like I said there are 19 states that have a higher homicide rate than New York, yup you guessed it, they are hate party states. Highest rape numbers, the highest crime rate across the board, The Highest welfare recipients, the highest food stamp recipients, hate party states cost Democratic states massive amounts of money because they take out way more federally then they contribute. Worst States to bring up children, the worst education systems, Most hate groups, The Lowest wages, Then worst health care, And the BEST city's in the US over 200,000 the majority are democratically run city's.


----------



## 2aguy (May 29, 2022)

jbander said:


> Has anyone explained to this dumb fuck how stupid he is yet.  These people are too stupid to realize that if  their fact that hate party states  are worse off only because of the democratic city's, Then the worst states would of course be democratic states with their democratic city's in them, but that's not  the case, the worst states by far a Hate party states. No comparison. Like I said there are 19 states that have a higher homicide rate than New York, yup you guessed it, they are hate party states. Highest rape numbers, the highest crime rate across the board, The Highest welfare recipients, the highest food stamp recipients, hate party states cost Democratic states massive amounts of money because they take out way more federally then they contribute. Worst States to bring up children, the worst education systems, Most hate groups, The Lowest wages, Then worst health care, And the BEST city's in the US over 200,000 the majority are democratically run city's.


 Yeah.. no….please link to any of your BS


----------



## Moonglow (May 29, 2022)

Don't tell the OP that there is no democrat party in power in the US it will invalidate their ignorance of bias.


----------



## jbander (May 29, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Yeah.. no….please link to any of your BS





2aguy said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah.. no….please link to any of your BS
> ...


----------



## jbander (May 29, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Yeah.. no….please link to any of your BS


Most dependent on the fed


----------



## 2aguy (May 29, 2022)

As I stated, they use suicides to get those numbers…


----------



## 2aguy (May 29, 2022)

jbander said:


> Most dependent on the fed
> View attachment 651666


----------



## 2aguy (May 29, 2022)

jbander said:


> Most dependent on the fed
> View attachment 651666




Yeah.,......you are not a deep thinker......

*Now it’s true that the average taxpayer in blue states pays a higher per capita income tax than the average taxpayer in red states. But that’s because those states — particularly Connecticut, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York and California — have more rich people. Don’t the Democrats want the rich paying their fair share?*

*As for blue states allegedly getting back less, what numbers are they looking at? It is true that red states receive 35.75 percent on average of their budgets from the federal government, while blue states receive 30.80 percent. 

But this is because the blue states’ budgets are far larger due to all the bloat and waste. 

The 10 states in the best fiscal condition are almost all red states. 

The 10 states with the worst numbers in the red are almost all blue states.
----
The higher the taxes, the more mismanaged a state is. CNBC examined the infrastructure of every state — roads, airports, water systems and ports — and found that the places with the worst-rated infrastructure are six Democratic states, which also rank among the highest in taxes collected per resident: Connecticut, Hawaii, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, and New York.
----
Kyle Sammin at The Federalist found that if you look at the amount of money the federal government gives to states on a per capita basis instead, blue states get more; $2,124 per resident. Red states receive just $1,879 on average.*

*Matt Palumbo writing at The Dan Bongino Show found that even if red states receive more in federal welfare, it’s not going to Republicans. Those on public assistance, as well as long-term unemployment, are overwhelmingly Democrats.*





Behind the Misleading Statement That Blue States Subsidize Red States


----------



## jbander (May 29, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Yeah.. no….please link to any of your BS


Most hate groups





2aguy said:


> Yeah.. no….please link to any of your BS


----------



## jbander (May 29, 2022)

cRIME RATE


----------



## 2aguy (May 29, 2022)

The truth.....

New Study Finds Firearms Laws Do Nothing to Prevent Homicides

*But what jumps out at you when you read Fleegler’s article is that the decrease in fatalities that he documents relates almost exclusively to suicides. What his study really shows is that strict gun laws have little or no impact on gun homicides:

Compared with the quartile of states with the fewest laws, the quartile with the most laws had a lower firearm suicide rate (absolute rate difference, 6.25 deaths/100 000/y; IRR, 0.63; 95% CI, 0.48-0.83) and a lower firearm homicide rate (absolute rate difference, 0.40 deaths/100 000/y; IRR, 0.60; 95% CI, 0.38-0.95).*

http://reason.com/archives/2016/01/05/you-know-less-than-you-think-a/1

Do Gun Laws Stop Gun Crimes?
The same week Kristof's column came out, _National Journal_ attracted major media attention with a showy piece of research and analysis headlined "The States With The Most Gun Laws See The Fewest Gun-Related Deaths." The subhead lamented: "But there's still little appetite to talk about more restrictions."


*Critics quickly noted that the Journal's Libby Isenstein had included suicides among "gun-related deaths" and suicide-irrelevant policies such as stand-your-ground laws among its tally of "gun laws." *

*That meant that high-suicide, low-homicide states such as Wyoming, Alaska, and Idaho were taken to task for their liberal carry-permit policies. Worse, several of the states with what the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence considers terribly lax gun laws were dropped from Isenstein's data set because their murder rates were too low!*


*Another of National Journal's mistakes is a common one in gun science: The paper didn't look at gun statistics in the context of overall violent crime, a much more relevant measure to the policy debate. After all, if less gun crime doesn't mean less crime overall—if criminals simply substitute other weapons or means when guns are less available—the benefit of the relevant gun laws is thrown into doubt. When Thomas Firey of the Cato Institute ran regressions of Isenstein's study with slightly different specifications and considering all violent crime, each of her effects either disappeared or reversed.*

Another recent well-publicized study trying to assert a positive connection between gun laws and public safety was a 2013 _JAMA_ _Internal Medicine_ article by the Harvard pediatrics professor Eric W. Fleegler and his colleagues, called "Firearm Legislation and Firearm-Related Fatalities in the United States." It offered a mostly static comparison of the toughness of state gun laws (as rated by the gun control lobbyists at the Brady Center) with gun deaths from 2007 to 2010.


*"States with strictest firearm laws have lowest rates of gun deaths," a Boston Globeheadline then announced. But once again, if you take the simple, obvious step of separating out suicides from murders, the correlations that buttress the supposed causations disappear. As John Hinderaker headlined his reaction at the Power Line blog, "New Study Finds Firearm Laws Do Nothing to Prevent Homicides."*


Among other anomalies in Fleegler's research, Hinderaker pointed out that it didn't include Washington, D.C., with its strict gun laws and frequent homicides. If just one weak-gun-law state, Louisiana, were taken out of the equation, "the remaining nine lowest-regulation states have an average gun homicide rate of 2.8 per 100,000, which is 12.5% less than the average of the ten states with the strictest gun control laws," he found.

Public health researcher Garen Wintemute, who advocates stronger gun laws, assessed the spate of gun-law studies during an October interview with _Slate_ and found it wanting: "There have been studies that have essentially toted up the number of laws various states have on the books and examined the association between the number of laws and rates of firearm death," said Wintemute, who is a medical doctor and researcher at the University of California, Davis. "That's really bad science, and it shouldn't inform policymaking."
Wintemute thinks the factor such studies don't adequately consider is the number of people in a state who _have_ guns to begin with, which is generally not known or even well-estimated on levels smaller than national, though researchers have used proxies from subscribers to certain gun-related magazines and percentages of suicides committed with guns to make educated guesses. "Perhaps these laws decrease mortality by decreasing firearm ownership, in which case firearm ownership mediates the association," Wintemute wrote in a 2013 _JAMA_ _Internal Medicine_ paper. "But perhaps, and more plausibly, these laws are more readily enacted in states where the prevalence of firearm ownership is low—there will be less opposition to them—and firearm ownership confounds the association."










Would Cracking Down on Guns in the U.S. Really Reduce Violence? , by Robert VerBruggen, National Review

There is actually no simple correlation between states’ homicide rates and their gun-ownership rates or gun laws. 
This has been shown numerous times, by different people, using different data sets.

*A year ago, I took state gun-ownership levels reported by the Washington Post (based on a Centers for Disease Control survey) and compared them with murder rates from the FBI: no correlation. 

The legal scholar Eugene Volokh has compared states’ gun laws (as rated by the anti-gun Brady Campaign) with their murder rates: no correlation. 

David Freddoso of the Washington Examiner, a former National Review reporter, failed to find a correlation even between gun ownership in a state and gun murders specifically, an approach that sets aside the issue of whether gun availability has an effect on non-gun crime. (Guns can deter unarmed criminals, for instance, and criminals without guns may simply switch to other weapons.) *


, I recently redid my analysis with a few tweaks. Instead of relying on a single year of survey data, I averaged three years. (The CDC survey, the best available for state-level numbers, included data on gun ownership only in 2001, 2002, and 2004. Those were the years I looked at.)

*And instead of comparing CDC data with murder rates from a different agency, I relied on the CDC’s own estimates of death by assault in those years. Again: no correlation.

------
*
Left-leaning media outlets, from Mother Jones to National Journal, get around this absence of correlation by reporting numbers on “gun deaths” rather than gun homicides or homicides in general. 

More than 60 percent of gun deaths nationally are suicides, and places with higher gun ownership typically see a higher percentage of their suicides committed with a gun. 

Focusing on the number of gun deaths practically guarantees a finding that guns and violence go together. While it may be true that public policy should also seek to reduce suicide, it is homicide — often a dramatic mass killing — that usually prompts the media and politicians to call for gun control, and it is homicide that most influences people as they consider supporting measures to take away their fellow citizens’ access to guns. 

There are large gaps among the states when it comes to homicide, with rates ranging all the way from about two to twelve per 100,000 in 2013, the most recent year of data available from the CDC. These disparities show that it’s not just guns that cause the United States to have, on average, a higher rate of homicide than other developed countries do. Not only is there no correlation between gun ownership and overall homicide within a state, but there is a strong correlation between gun homicide and non-gun homicide — suggesting that they spring from similar causes, and that some states are simply more violent than others. A closer look at demographic and geographic patterns provides some clues as to why this is.


Read more at: Would Cracking Down on Guns in the U.S. Really Reduce Violence? | National Review


----------



## jbander (May 29, 2022)

rape


----------



## 2aguy (May 29, 2022)

jbander said:


> cRIME RATE
> View attachment 651670




Moron.......the blue cities in Red states cause all the crime rates........


----------



## jbander (May 29, 2022)

*The ten states with the lowest average incomes are:*


 
Mississippi - $41,776.

West Virginia - $44,947.

Kentucky - $45,966.

New Mexico - $46,325.

Alabama - $46,957.

Arkansas - $47,274.

South Carolina - $47,458.

Idaho - $48,591.


----------



## jbander (May 29, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Moron.......the blue cities in Red states cause all the crime rates........


If that was so then the blue cities in blue states would be the worst and that is not even close. You fricken lame idiot. The worst states for everything are all right wing hate sates. Y0u are too fucking dumb to understand that, but there are people who can actually think here. And they are rolling on the floor over your blatant stupidity.


----------



## 2aguy (May 29, 2022)

jbander said:


> *The ten states with the lowest average incomes are:*
> 
> 
> 
> ...




And?   You can't rent an apartment in New York for less than 3 grand for a studio or 1 bedroom.......


----------



## 2aguy (May 29, 2022)

jbander said:


> If that was so then the blue cities in blue states would be the worst and that is not even close. You fricken lame idiot. The worst states for everything are all right wing hate sates. Y0u are too fucking dumb to understand that, but there are people who can actually think here. And they are rolling on the floor over your blatant stupidity.




Nope.....I showed you that morons like you add suicide into those rates.......so a low murder state gets dinged for a high gun death rate because of suicides...


Then, Red states with blue cities get dinged for the democrats letting criminals run wild in their cities...


----------



## jbander (May 29, 2022)

worst education states 



 THEY HAVE TO KEEP THEM STUPID SO THEY WILL VOTE FOR THESE MAGA MAGGOTS


----------



## jbander (May 29, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Nope.....I showed you that morons like you add suicide into those rates.......so a low murder state gets dinged for a high gun death rate because of suicides...
> 
> 
> Then, Red states with blue cities get dinged for the democrats letting criminals run wild in their cities...


You are a clown , you have to be a complete idiot to vote for anyone in the hate party


----------



## 2aguy (May 29, 2022)

jbander said:


> You are a clown , you have to be a complete idiot to vote for anyone in the hate party



I don't vote for the hate party, the democrat party....


----------



## jbander (May 29, 2022)

Let's throw in one of the biggest points about the MAGA maggots. If you are concerned at all for the econimy, you would be a complete idiot to vote for any Maga maggot for president ever.



ADD IN THE FANTASTIC NUMBERS OBAMA ADDED TO THIS


----------



## jbander (May 29, 2022)

2aguy said:


> I don't vote for the hate party, the democrat party....


You have been buried in facts , and what does it mean , it means that you are one dumb fucking red neck hater.


----------



## jbander (May 29, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Nope.....I showed you that morons like you add suicide into those rates.......so a low murder state gets dinged for a high gun death rate because of suicides...
> 
> 
> Then, Red states with blue cities get dinged for the democrats letting criminals run wild in their cities...


Boring! and garbage


----------



## 2aguy (May 29, 2022)

jbander said:


> Let's throw in one of the biggest points about the MAGA maggots. If you are concerned at all for the econimy, you would be a complete idiot to vote for any Maga maggot for president ever.
> View attachment 651680
> ADD IN THE FANTASTIC NUMBERS OBAMA ADDED TO THIS




Moron....the republicans fix the economy, the good times convince people that they can vote for democrats, who then destroy all the job creation by the Republican party....you doofus.


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## 2aguy (May 29, 2022)

jbander said:


> Let's throw in one of the biggest points about the MAGA maggots. If you are concerned at all for the econimy, you would be a complete idiot to vote for any Maga maggot for president ever.
> View attachment 651680
> ADD IN THE FANTASTIC NUMBERS OBAMA ADDED TO THIS




Yes.....bloomberg and politico.........why not just use hunter biden as your source?


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## jbander (May 29, 2022)

There is nothing that you maga maggots produce in this country that is good for this country. You are the plague, this countries the biggest threat and enemy. Losers would be the prime word here. And funnier than a loon.


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## jbander (May 29, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Moron....the republicans fix the economy, the good times convince people that they can vote for democrats, who then destroy all the job creation by the Republican party....you doofus.


Pitiful, except that not what any chart or study says , there is no way you can back it up/You're just a bunch of losers, and I've made that clear with the stats.


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## jbander (May 29, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Yes.....bloomberg and politico.........why not just use hunter biden as your source?


Won't work ace , you aren't  impressing anyone with your cry baby nonsense.


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## jbander (May 29, 2022)

The worm got buried alive.


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## jbander (May 29, 2022)

Maybe I should come up with the same points by multiple sources , they are literally everywhere telling what a nothing group the MAGA maggots are.


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## jbander (May 29, 2022)

This is for the worm

 You definitely don't want to move your children to Right wing states, especially daughters. They are listed as the worst places to raise your children and the highest incident of rape. 

  You don't want to live in right wing states, they have the highest crime rate, murder rates and murder rates by gun. This is a hoot because they are always saying how dangerous democratically run cities are, when in fact many of their states are way more dangerous than these democratically run cities. 

   The biggest welfare and food support states by far are right wing states, and federally what they contribute is way less than the government funnels into these states just for minimal civilized resources. Where do they get the money from, well of course they get it from successful democratic states?

  The worst states for pay for your work are right wing states , their household family income is way less than democratic states. 

      Education in right wing states is a disaster. They have the worst educated people in the country, My opinion is because the right wants to keep them stupid because they know they have to keep them stupid to vote for them.

  Guess which states have the highest number of hate groups, well of course, hate party states. That one is easy to figure out. It is in right wing states that are run and based on hatred as their party is across the board.

   IF you are concerned at all as far as the economy is concerned, the worst thing you can do is elect a republican for president. They are a disaster for every aspect of the economy including Jobs, pay, unemployment


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## Jarlaxle (Jun 23, 2022)

Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> The lockdowns didn't do shit.  If anything, it made more people sick and it definitely created a multitude of other problems.


I know 8 people dead due to the shutdown.


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## jbander (Jun 23, 2022)

Jarlaxle said:


> I know 8 people dead due to the shutdown.


Sure you do, you people a joke . Believing any one of you people is insane.


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## Jarlaxle (Jun 24, 2022)

jbander said:


> Sure you do, you people a joke . Believing any one of you people is insane.


I'm sorry, you seem to think I give a rat fuck about your opinion.


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## jbander (Jun 24, 2022)

Jarlaxle said:


> I'm sorry, you seem to think I give a rat fuck about your opinion.


Good point , You are gone


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## jbander (Jun 24, 2022)

Everyone if people don't contribute, dump their asses, that is the only real way to keep a forum alive. Making a thread and then having to read a half dozen times that someone doesn't like you, think you are dumb or attack your spelling is a total waste of bandwidth. Who in the hell cares what someone thinks personally about someone else. Then there are the hijackers who respond to a post about Trump and answer with Hunter Biden or that Obama wasn't born here or that Clinton lied. If They do that, dump their stupid ass.


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## 2aguy (Jun 24, 2022)

jbander said:


> worst education states
> View attachment 651678 THEY HAVE TO KEEP THEM STUPID SO THEY WILL VOTE FOR THESE MAGA MAGGOTS




Again...you have blue cities in those states and the democrats in those cities allow the democrat party controlled teachers unions destroy the schools.......you idiot.


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## jbander (Jun 25, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Again...you have blue cities in those states and the democrats in those cities allow the democrat party controlled teachers unions destroy the schools.......you idiot.


You just have no clue , even if you are right about what you say , then the worst states would always be in Democratic states with democratic city's, but they aren't, the worst in this country , are in hate party states with democratic city's . I know this is too complicated for you, but people who can think can understand, and it shows them that you are stupid.


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## jbander (Jun 25, 2022)

*Love it when you can dump someone in the shitter with words/*


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## jbander (Jun 25, 2022)

Probably time for him to go after my spelling or change the subject to Hunter Biden.


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## 2aguy (Jun 25, 2022)

jbander said:


> You just have no clue , even if you are right about what you say , then the worst states would always be in Democratic states with democratic city's, but they aren't, the worst in this country , are in hate party states with democratic city's . I know this is too complicated for you, but people who can think can understand, and it shows them that you are stupid.




The hate party is the democrat party.....

Again......you have blue cities in Red States that drive up the violent crime rates because democrat mayors, prosecutors and judges are persecuting the police, and releasing the most violent, dangerous criminals.....

It seems to be complicated for you, since the problem has been explained to you over and over again.


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## jbander (Jun 28, 2022)

2aguy said:


> The hate party is the democrat party.....
> 
> Again......you have blue cities in Red States that drive up the violent crime rates because democrat mayors, prosecutors and judges are persecuting the police, and releasing the most violent, dangerous criminals.....
> 
> It seems to be complicated for you, since the problem has been explained to you over and over again.


Brainless, one more time. Let's say you are 100% right about blue city's  ,  but then the worst states would be blue states with their blue cities, but that not the case The most dangerous, the highest rate of rape, death by guns, the worst place to bring up children, the biggest welfare recipients, the biggest snap recipients , states with the worst education, The Lowest contribution but highest recipients of federal money , that they are getting from productive blue states, the largest number of hate groups, the highest crime.  ARE  RED STATES DOMINATED BY A MAJOR LARGE MAJORITY!!!!!!! YOU ARE A IDIOT AND IF YOU WANT TO CONTRIBUTE TO THE ABOVE AND KEEP THOSE LOOSER FACTS, KEEP VOTING FOR THE HATE PARTY?


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## jbander (Jun 28, 2022)

He won't get it will he.


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