# Another Islamist in the West Kills His Own Child - You BASTARD!



## GHook93 (Oct 21, 2009)

How many times are we going to see these honor killing done by Muslim upon their own children in the name of Islam? How much longer are we going to let liberals allow us to believe its not a danger? How long are we going to let liberals stand behind their unholy alliance and protect Islamist when they do the unthinkable!


Precursor: Fuck you Shogun, Fuck you Sunni, Fuck You Dogshit and Fuck You Cunticious!

Police: Man ran down 'too Westernized' daughter - CNN.com


> (CNN) -- Arizona police are looking for a man who they allege ran down his daughter and her friend because he believed his daughter had become "too Westernized."
> Police say they're looking for Faleh Hassan Almaleki, who they say struck two people with a vehicle Tuesday.
> 
> Police say they're looking for Faleh Hassan Almaleki, who they say struck two people with a vehicle Tuesday.
> ...


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## auditor0007 (Oct 21, 2009)

Lovely; another killing for Allah.


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## GHook93 (Oct 21, 2009)

auditor0007 said:


> Lovely; another killing for Allah.



As a father of 2 young girls (and 1 boy) it would kill me if they went certain routes! Meaning extremely religious (in any religion whether it be Judaism, Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism etc), if they went goth, if they became criminals, druggies and of course if they became sluts (not sure I could handle this one)! However, I would NEVER harm them and even think for a second of killing them!

I just can't understand how a so-called parent can harm their children! Its perplexing to me!


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## Si modo (Oct 21, 2009)

Idiots.  Freaking idiots.


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## chanel (Oct 21, 2009)




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## potter 58 (Oct 21, 2009)

idiots for certain, but read up on ChristiNAITY, NOT MUCH BETTER, AND IF THE WINGNUTS GET THEIR WAY IT'S COMING BACK, SOONER RATHER THAN LATER


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## xotoxi (Oct 21, 2009)

GHook93 said:


> How many times are we going to see these honor killing done by Muslim upon their own children in the name of Islam? How much longer are we going to let liberals allow us to believe its not a danger? How long are we going to let liberals stand behind their unholy alliance and protect Islamist when they do the unthinkable!


 
What the fuck are you talking about?

Do you seriously think that "liberals" or anyone else thinks this is okay?

What do you want to do about it?  Round up all the muslims and exterminate them?  Nuke their countries?

Are you claming that a non-muslim has never killed their child?


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## rdean (Oct 21, 2009)

GHook93 said:


> How many times are we going to see these honor killing done by Muslim upon their own children in the name of Islam? How much longer are we going to let *liberals* allow us to believe its not a danger? How long are we going to let liberals stand behind their unholy alliance and protect Islamist when they do the unthinkable!
> 
> 
> Precursor: Fuck you Shogun, Fuck you Sunni, Fuck You Dogshit and Fuck You Cunticious!
> ...


_

Liberals?  Sorry butthead.  It's the conservatives.  

Islamic conservatives are just as bad as our own.  Look at Fred Phelps.  Look at Allen Keyes.  

Ah, yes, Allen, threw his own daughter out into the streets for being gay.  Penniless, no place to go, completely cut off.  How many of us could do that?  Just go out into the streets with nothing and be OK.  This is a man who ran for the Senate.  Of course, as a Republican.

There is a rumor that an NFL coach's son committed suicide at the urging of his father for coming out.  And it was said he talked about his son at church. It's been said that he felt God would have approved.  While this hasn't been completely confirmed, it would be no surprise to me.  It's just not far fetched.

How many Republicans on this board applaud the death penalty for gays.  Gay people are part of our families, the children of American citizens.

So don't compare that with Liberals.  Conservatives would be a much better comparison.  Believe it._


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## chanel (Oct 21, 2009)

Very few in the name of religion xotoxi.  





> The United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA) estimates that the annual worldwide total of honor-killing victims may be as high as 5,000.[1]



Honor killing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is America.  They are going to have to leave their evil ways at the door if they want to stay here.


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## Si modo (Oct 21, 2009)

potter 58 said:


> idiots for certain, but read up on ChristiNAITY, NOT MUCH BETTER, AND IF THE WINGNUTS GET THEIR WAY IT'S COMING BACK, SOONER RATHER THAN LATER


Lame.  Focus on what actually happened.  Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Wiccans, etc. had nothing to do with this.


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## chanel (Oct 21, 2009)

Treating women like animals is a tradition that has no place in America.  If they want to do that, they can live in the frickin desert and eat sand.


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## bodecea (Oct 21, 2009)

rdean said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> > How many times are we going to see these honor killing done by Muslim upon their own children in the name of Islam? How much longer are we going to let *liberals* allow us to believe its not a danger? How long are we going to let liberals stand behind their unholy alliance and protect Islamist when they do the unthinkable!
> ...


_

I would hope that this:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/relig...become-a-death-penalty-offense-in-uganda.html

does not happen here in the U.S._


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## garyd (Oct 21, 2009)

Makes two of us. How Old was Keyes daughter at the time?


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## GHook93 (Oct 22, 2009)

potter 58 said:


> idiots for certain, but read up on ChristiNAITY, NOT MUCH BETTER, AND IF THE WINGNUTS GET THEIR WAY IT'S COMING BACK, SOONER RATHER THAN LATER



ALWAYS the liberal attack, I stand by my oath to protect Islamofacists in every form!

NO christianity back in the dark ages (like everyone else back then) was barbaric, but that is not the case now! Christianity is for the most part the most generous, charitable and peaceful religions! 

Either way you do not see any Christians killing their children in the name of Jesus (some kill their children, but not in the name of Islam)!

The only thing you might have on Evangenicals is their assault on abortion clinics! But the killing of abortion doctors far dwarfed by the shear number of honor killings by Muslims!


I will tell you one thing if there will ever be a one world religion, I pray its Christianity and NOT Islam!


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## namvet (Oct 22, 2009)

are these the peaceful Muslims the leftards always harp about ?????


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## theHawk (Oct 22, 2009)

GHook93 said:


> How many times are we going to see these honor killing done by Muslim upon their own children in the name of Islam? How much longer are we going to let liberals allow us to believe its not a danger? How long are we going to let liberals stand behind their unholy alliance and protect Islamist when they do the unthinkable!
> 
> 
> Precursor: Fuck you Shogun, Fuck you Sunni, Fuck You Dogshit and Fuck You Cunticious!
> ...


_

Another clear cut example of why Islam doesn't mix with Western society.  We should cut off all immigration from Islamic countries and deport all the Muslim non-citizens we have.  They bring nothing to our society, they don't "help make this country a better place".  They never have, they never will.

But our liberal immigration policies continue to let these wackos enter our country.  Unless they are changed we''re going the down the same path as Europe which at this point is almost a lost cause._


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## theHawk (Oct 22, 2009)

rdean said:


> Liberals?  Sorry butthead.  It's the conservatives.
> 
> Islamic conservatives are just as bad as our own.  Look at Fred Phelps.  Look at Allen Keyes.
> 
> ...





Oh look!  More imaginary arguements from rdean.  

There is nothing conservative about our immigration policies that allow shitbags like this into our country.  If it were up to conservatives, our borders would be shut and protected.  The days of educated, responisble immigrants escaping persecution are long gone.


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## GHook93 (Oct 22, 2009)

xotoxi said:


> What the fuck are you talking about?


It will be hard to explain it to you because you are dumb as they come!



xotoxi said:


> Do you seriously think that "liberals" or anyone else thinks this is okay?


  No I don't retard! But they will do what they always do! EXCUSE IT, attack conservatives, attack Christians and well say man that was bad, but heck what's for dinner!



xotoxi said:


> What do you want to do about it?  Round up all the muslims and exterminate them?  Nuke their countries?


 Nice red herring you fucking fool! I never claimed anything of the sort! I never lumped Muslims in *WITH ISLAMOFACISTS!* There are many peaceful religious muslims, secular Muslims and near atheist muslims, but then there are our enemies, *ISLAMOFACISTS!*

If you want to get specific, yes round up all the Islamofacists and nuke them! You can join them in that circle before the bomb drops if you choose!




xotoxi said:


> Are you claming that a non-muslim has never killed their child?


Nice Red Herring again! Non-muslims have killed their children, but seldomly do they do it (part from the truly crazy one) like Islamofacists do based solely on their religious beliefs! Check the honor killing amongst Christians and Muslims and I guarantee there is probably 1 Chistian honor killing to evey 100,000 Muslim honor killing. 


See you cowardly liberals will denounce this as one brutal father that killed his daughter! You will not see it as an Islamofacist that honor killed his daughter in the name of Allah!


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## Douger (Oct 22, 2009)

One less in the gene pool.


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## GHook93 (Oct 22, 2009)

rdean said:


> Liberals?  Sorry butthead.  It's the conservatives.


I know you will never understand because you are partisan hack, but liberals are not going out and honor killing their children! In fact liberals love their children a great deal! Rather what they do is protect Islamofacist whereever they do middle-age type brutality in the name of Allah! You do it because you are cowards! Islamofacists have drive and dedication to fight, that liberals do not possess. So instead of fighting them you want to apologize for everything they do. You think if I am nice to them they will leave us alone! Good luck stroker! Look what you cowards want to do now, negotiate witht he Taliban and allow them to come back to power! I say nuke the entire country before we do that!




rdean said:


> Islamic conservatives are just as bad as our own.  Look at Fred Phelps.  Look at Allen Keyes.


Not sure who Phelps is, but Keyes didn't kill his children for any literature I read, nor has he even embraced people who do! 




rdean said:


> Ah, yes, Allen, threw his own daughter out into the streets for being gay.  Penniless, no place to go, completely cut off.  How many of us could do that?  Just go out into the streets with nothing and be OK.  This is a man who ran for the Senate.  Of course, as a Republican.


What about Cheaney, huh? He, as did Bush, more than accept his openly gay daugther! What this guy did was wrong, but he far dwarfs killing his daughter! Not sure when he tossed her out, but if it was at 18 he broke no laws! 

See you are arrogant is saying that because most Republicans do not support  gay marriage (not this one), they they are anti-gay people! There is some truth to that, but not entirely!



rdean said:


> There is a rumor that an NFL coach's son committed suicide at the urging of his father for coming out.  And it was said he talked about his son at church. It's been said that he felt God would have approved.  While this hasn't been completely confirmed, it would be no surprise to me.  It's just not far fetched.


AND??????



rdean said:


> How many Republicans on this board applaud the death penalty for gays.  Gay people are part of our families, the children of American citizens.


Sunni, 52 Street and Charlie Bass, all people that voted for OBAMA!

You do know why the gay marriage bill was lost in CA do you! It was because of the record turn out to vote for Obama (most black and hispanic democrats voted AGAINST Gay marriage)!



rdean said:


> So don't compare that with Liberals.  Conservatives would be a much better comparison.  Believe it.


I wasn't comparing Islamofacist to anyone numbnutz! Rather I was saying liberals will apologize and excuse this!


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## GHook93 (Oct 22, 2009)

namvet said:


> are these the peaceful Muslims the leftards always harp about ?????



But you have seen the liberal oath to protect Islamofacists in this thread! Potter and rdean displayed it perfectly!


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## GHook93 (Oct 22, 2009)

theHawk said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> > How many times are we going to see these honor killing done by Muslim upon their own children in the name of Islam? How much longer are we going to let liberals allow us to believe its not a danger? How long are we going to let liberals stand behind their unholy alliance and protect Islamist when they do the unthinkable!
> ...


_

You can't be serious on that! For the most part most American Muslims have assimulated into America, especially their children! I don't believe that should be the case in the least!

Make sure you differiate between Muslims (like say Kalam, who might be an cowardly appreaser, but he is definitely a true American and not an Islamofacist!) and Islamofacists (like Sunni Man)!_


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## Lonestar_logic (Oct 22, 2009)

potter 58 said:


> idiots for certain, but read up on ChristiNAITY, NOT MUCH BETTER, AND IF THE WINGNUTS GET THEIR WAY IT'S COMING BACK, SOONER RATHER THAN LATER



Can you cite some examples of Christians killing their children for the sake of honor or religion?


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## GHook93 (Oct 22, 2009)

Lonestar_logic said:


> potter 58 said:
> 
> 
> > idiots for certain, but read up on ChristiNAITY, NOT MUCH BETTER, AND IF THE WINGNUTS GET THEIR WAY IT'S COMING BACK, SOONER RATHER THAN LATER
> ...



No he can't!


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## rdean (Oct 22, 2009)

garyd said:


> Makes two of us. How Old was Keyes daughter at the time?



I'm guessing 18 or 19.  I know that's "old enough", but she was going to college full time and living at home.  The reason she came out was because she just couldn't take the anti gay rhetoric her father was spewing as he was running against Barrack Obama.

You know, I said it before.  If a gay gene were ever discovered, you will see a complete about face by conservatives about abortion.  They hate gays that much.


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## Si modo (Oct 22, 2009)

So typical.  The cowards cannot focus on the topic - a MUSLIM'S egregious violence toward his child.  Somehow these cowards think that the 'you too' argument is logical.  It's not.  And, by using it, the cowards give tacit approval to the egregious behavior.

Don't acknowledge their irrelevance, except to say it is irrelevant.


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## theHawk (Oct 22, 2009)

GHook93 said:


> You can't be serious on that! For the most part most American Muslims have assimulated into America, especially their children! I don't believe that should be the case in the least!
> 
> Make sure you differiate between Muslims (like say Kalam, who might be an cowardly appreaser, but he is definitely a true American and not an Islamofacist!) and Islamofacists (like Sunni Man)!



And how do you propose the government make that distinction?  It can't.  Nor do I have any interest in going around trying to sniff out the bad ones from the "good ones".
As I said, all NON-citizens should be deported.  We do NOT need them.


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## Lonestar_logic (Oct 22, 2009)

rdean said:


> garyd said:
> 
> 
> > Makes two of us. How Old was Keyes daughter at the time?
> ...



Oh my !!! He kicked his grown daughter out?? He should be tarred and feathered!! 

There is not and never will be a  "gay gene" may as well accept that fact. So you 'll have to blame your homosexuality on something else. Hey, here's a novel idea, blame it on Bush!!


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## theHawk (Oct 22, 2009)

rdean said:


> garyd said:
> 
> 
> > Makes two of us. How Old was Keyes daughter at the time?
> ...



More imaginary arguements.


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## GHook93 (Oct 22, 2009)

rdean said:


> garyd said:
> 
> 
> > Makes two of us. How Old was Keyes daughter at the time?
> ...


So she was legal age and he broke no laws! So she ruined his campaign! I guess you left that out!




rdean said:


> You know, I said it before.  If a gay gene were ever discovered, you will see a complete about face by conservatives about abortion.  They hate gays that much.


BULLSHIT! They have strong convictions on abortion, that you obviously don't understand!

And most don't hate gays they way YOU make them out to be! I know now you will bring up the "God Hates Fags" West Baptist Church lunatics!


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## mdn2000 (Oct 22, 2009)

Liberalism strikes again and a woman is dead, maybe the super models and the super fools will wear black Burquas and Hijabs in mourning and solatarity.

Its a womans right to wear a Hijab or Burqua, its her choice and right to support the Moslem father who killed his daughter. 

Liberalism is a mental disorder


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## bodecea (Oct 22, 2009)

If the laws in this country either supported or looked the other way in ALL religion-based 'punishment' issues.....does anyone here think that only the Muslims would go on a killing spree?


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## Emma (Oct 22, 2009)

GHook93 said:


> Rather I was saying liberals will apologize and excuse this!



Bullshit.


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## ba1614 (Oct 22, 2009)

GHook93 said:


> How many times are we going to see these honor killing done by Muslim upon their own children in the name of Islam? How much longer are we going to let liberals allow us to believe its not a danger? How long are we going to let liberals stand behind their unholy alliance and protect Islamist when they do the unthinkable!
> 
> 
> Precursor: Fuck you Shogun, Fuck you Sunni, Fuck You Dogshit and Fuck You Cunticious!
> ...


_

It's all over the place too, here's an ugly incident in Canada this summer, Husband, son, and wife killed 3 daughters, and the husbands first wife!
* Family's plans to murder daughters, first wife hatched months before: police*_


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## Charles Stucker (Oct 22, 2009)

namvet said:


> are these the peaceful Muslims the leftards always harp about ?????



No these are the "Islamic" extremists that anyone, outside the extremists themselves,  who studies the issue would like to suppress. This kind of atrocity is perpetrated daily around the globe, and we react only when it happens here. Stopping atrocities is a valid goal for anyone, unfortunately a large percentage of Islamic worshipers proclaim doctrine, or perhaps dogma, too similar to this extremist's view to hope that we can change them all without a protracted struggle. We can execute this man if he turns out to be the culprit, but we cannot expunge the worship of Islam in our country without destroying the very freedoms which protect every one of us from state based religious persecution. 
I would support requiring immigrants to pay for psychological analysis to determine if they are prone to such extremism and rejecting anyone who shows such tendencies, but I could not, in good conscience, allow us to simply shut our borders based on religious denomination.


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## mdn2000 (Oct 22, 2009)

Some cultures will never mix completely, those in the USA must accept our culture, we need not accept others cultures that choose to live within our borders under our laws.


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## Coyote (Oct 22, 2009)

Honor killing has  nothing to do with Islam.  The Quran does not condone honor killings and honor killings are not  specific to any one religion or part of the world.  

They are symtomatic of a more widespread cultural acceptance of violence towards women in South America, Asia, the Middle East, and North Africa.  For instance, in the areas of the Middle East, where muslims practice honor killings - so do the Christians and other religious groups.  In 1991 the Supreme Court of Brazil finally struck down "defense of honor" as a justification for murdering a wife yet courts still show leniency and fail to prosecute and convict men who claim they kill their wives because of their alleged infidelity.  In India, a bride can be killed if her dowry is deemed insufficient.  

Those who think honor killing is an Islamic aboration seem like they care more about denouncing Islam then do about helping women who are the victims of those horrific practices.


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## Si modo (Oct 22, 2009)

bodecea said:


> If the laws in this country either supported or looked the other way in ALL religion-based 'punishment' issues.....does anyone here think that only the Muslims would go on a killing spree?


Yet, even with our laws, these folks did.  Scary shit, even with law.


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## mdn2000 (Oct 22, 2009)

Coyote said:


> Honor killing has  nothing to do with Islam.  The Quran does not condone honor killings and honor killings are not  specific to any one religion or part of the world.
> 
> They are symtomatic of a more widespread cultural acceptance of violence towards women in South America, Asia, the Middle East, and North Africa.  For instance, in the areas of the Middle East, where muslims practice honor killings - so do the Christians and other religious groups.  In 1991 the Supreme Court of Brazil finally struck down "defense of honor" as a justification for murdering a wife yet courts still show leniency and fail to prosecute and convict men who claim they kill their wives because of their alleged infidelity.  In India, a bride can be killed if her dowry is deemed insufficient.
> 
> Those who think honor killing is an Islamic aboration seem like they care more about denouncing Islam then do about helping women who are the victims of those horrific practices.



Its too bad Islam does not agree with you, its too bad this father who followed Islam did not agree with you. I am also sure you thoughts would of comforted the daughter had she lived.

Uh, you do realize you state "Honor killing has  nothing to do with Islam" and follow this statement with " areas of the Middle East, where muslims practice honor killings". 

Islam is the Moslem faith, Islam does have something to do with Moslems, this killing was in accordance with the Moslem's faith in Islam


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## rdean (Oct 22, 2009)

Si modo said:


> So typical.  The cowards cannot focus on the topic - a MUSLIM'S egregious violence toward his child.  Somehow these cowards think that the 'you too' argument is logical.  It's not.  And, by using it, the cowards give tacit approval to the egregious behavior.
> 
> Don't acknowledge their irrelevance, except to say it is irrelevant.



Actually, my myopic friend, there are plenty of Muslims that love their children.  The "bigger picture" here is "religious extremism".  And THAT comes in many flavors.

One flavor being "Islamic extremism" and another flavor being, "Christian right wing extremism".  The kind that blames natural disasters on women's rights and gays.  After all, if Katrina and 9/11 were the fault of the gays and feminists, they must be "punished" for what they did, right?


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## Coyote (Oct 22, 2009)

mdn2000 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Honor killing has  nothing to do with Islam.  The Quran does not condone honor killings and honor killings are not  specific to any one religion or part of the world.
> ...



Maybe you can find me the place in the Quran that talks about honor killing?  And while you are at it, can you tell me why the Christians and Druze in Palestine and Lebonon practice honor killing?



> Uh, you do realize you state "Honor killing has  nothing to do with Islam" and follow this statement with " areas of the Middle East, where muslims practice honor killings".



What part of " - so do the Christians and other religious groups" did you miss?



> Islam is the Moslem faith, Islam does have something to do with Moslems, this killing was in accordance with the Moslem's faith in Islam



Am I the only one who thinks this statement makes no sense?


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## Si modo (Oct 22, 2009)

rdean said:


> Si modo said:
> 
> 
> > So typical.  The cowards cannot focus on the topic - a MUSLIM'S egregious violence toward his child.  Somehow these cowards think that the 'you too' argument is logical.  It's not.  And, by using it, the cowards give tacit approval to the egregious behavior.
> ...


Morons can't read.  Morons seem to think I said Muslims don't love their children.  Moron's also think there is relevance to a 'you too' argument.  Morons can't focus.


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## Coyote (Oct 22, 2009)

Si modo said:


> So typical.  The cowards cannot focus on the topic - a MUSLIM'S egregious violence toward his child.  Somehow these cowards think that the 'you too' argument is logical.  It's not.  And, by using it, the cowards give tacit approval to the egregious behavior.
> 
> Don't acknowledge their irrelevance, except to say it is irrelevant.



Who is really giving tacit approval here?

The person who is focusing on "MUSLIM" or the person who is focusing on "honor killings?"


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## Coyote (Oct 22, 2009)

Si modo said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> > Si modo said:
> ...



Focus sweetheart


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## Charles Stucker (Oct 22, 2009)

Coyote said:


> Honor killing has  nothing to do with Islam.
> 
> They are symtomatic of a more widespread cultural acceptance of violence towards women in South America, Asia, the Middle East, and North Africa.  For instance, in the areas of the Middle East, where muslims practice honor killings - so do the Christians and other religious groups.



Yes and no. Honor killings are not unique to Islam, and certainly they are not art of many sects, but there are Islamic factions which do treat women as something not quite human. Those need to be opposed, not with overt violence, but with the tactics of denying them a chance to spread their particular dogma. This means stopping them at every border and using any legal means to reduce their influence within our borders. I don't recall suggesting we force only Islamic immigrants to pay for psychological analysis.


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## Coyote (Oct 22, 2009)

Charles Stucker said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Honor killing has  nothing to do with Islam.
> ...



Fundamentalism as a whole treats women like shit.  But the concept of honor killings is much more cultural than religious and if you focus on the religion you ignore the fact that it is going on in other religions of similar cultures.

Fundamentalism always treats women like crap frankly.


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## JScott (Oct 22, 2009)

This thread is the poster child of what America really is in reality. Bigoted and ignorant.


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## JScott (Oct 22, 2009)

Coyote said:


> Charles Stucker said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



I wouldnt say that its cultural persay. Anti-social maybe. Psychotic most probably. The only kind of person that would kill their child has mental problems. It doesnt matter if theyre Muslim or Christian or any other religion. Im sure Buddhists and Hindis have done the same.


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## mal (Oct 22, 2009)

potter 58 said:


> idiots for certain, but read up on ChristiNAITY, NOT MUCH BETTER, AND IF THE WINGNUTS GET THEIR WAY IT'S COMING BACK, SOONER RATHER THAN LATER



Get FUCKED!...

This is the Standard in Islam in the Middle East TODAY... Stop Talking about the Past as a Deflection for what these Animals are doing RIGHT NOW!...



peace...


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## Coyote (Oct 22, 2009)

JScott said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Charles Stucker said:
> ...



That is why I said it is a cultural issue not a religious one.  Cultures that think it's alright to treat women like that.


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## mal (Oct 22, 2009)

bodecea said:


> I would hope that this:
> 
> http://www.usmessageboard.com/relig...become-a-death-penalty-offense-in-uganda.html
> 
> does not happen here in the U.S.



Then I would Hope that you and others would Start Speaking out Against Islam instead of Appearing to Excuse and Run Static for it Everytime someone Points out how Animalistically Murderous it is around the Globe...

The only way it Happens here, Bodey... Is if we become an Islamic State.

Start Denouncing the Religion that Executes your Kind, and People may Start Taking you Seriously.



peace...


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## mdn2000 (Oct 22, 2009)

Its just a shame people wish to ignore what the Moslems are doing, you can scream its not the religion, its the culture, but the fact is the religion is the culture, you cannot seperate the two. Like all things people will follow and abide to the religion to varying degrees.

What does the Quran state on this subject, who knows and who cares, call it culture or religion, call it anything you want, any way you state what happened the fact is a Moslem father committed murder because he did not like that his daughter was enjoying the culture of the USA.

religion is culture, depending on the culture, the religion and the person determines to what degree.


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## jeffrockit (Oct 22, 2009)

potter 58 said:


> idiots for certain, but read up on ChristiNAITY, NOT MUCH BETTER, AND IF THE WINGNUTS GET THEIR WAY IT'S COMING BACK, SOONER RATHER THAN LATER



Care to elaborate on this accusation or are  you just bashing Christians? I can't think of any news I have read or heard where a Christian killed their child because they chose another religion or any other choice they made that does not follow Christianity.


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## Kalam (Oct 22, 2009)

La'anatullah alayhi.

_And whoever kills a believer intentionally, his punishment is hell, abiding therein; and Allah is wroth with him and He has cursed him and prepared for him a grievous chastisement._ - 4:93​


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## garyd (Oct 22, 2009)

Okay nimrod please site me a Christian honor killing anywhere in the last 100 years.


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## Zander (Oct 22, 2009)

Bluloolooloooloooo!!! Blulooloooolooooo!!!! I blow you up!!! Blulooloolooo!!! Daughter is whore!! Blulolooolooooo!!! I kill you for allah!!! Blulooloooloooo!! I blow you up!!!!!blulooloooloooo!! Blulooloooloooo!! My daughter is whore who shamed me!!!! Blulooloooloooo!! Allah ahkbar!!!! Blulooloooloooo!! I kill innocent child for allah!!!! Blulooloooloooo!! Blulooloooloooo!!


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## Sunni Man (Oct 22, 2009)

garyd said:


> Okay nimrod please site me a Christian honor killing anywhere in the last 100 years.



The Guardian, Thursday 23 June 2005 

Faten Habash's father wept as he assured his daughter there would be no more beatings, no more threats to her life and that she was free to marry the man she loved, even if he was a Muslim. All he asked was that Faten return home. 
Hassan Habash even gave his word to an emissary from a Bedouin tribe traditionally brought in to mediate in matters of family honour, a commitment regarded as sacrosanct in Palestinian society. But the next weekend, as Faten watched a Boy Scouts parade from the balcony of her Ramallah home, the 22-year-old *Christian Palestinian *was dragged into the living room and bludgeoned to death with an iron bar. Her father was arrested for the murder. 

Murdered in name of family honour | World news | The Guardian


----------



## Kalam (Oct 22, 2009)

garyd said:


> Okay nimrod please site me a Christian honor killing anywhere in the last 100 years.



Daily News Egypt - Full Article


----------



## Sunni Man (Oct 22, 2009)

Actually, India has the most honor killing of any nation by far.

Mainly by Hindus.

People like to pin honor killings on Islam.

But as Kalam pointed out. 

Honor killings are a cultural phenomenon and have no justification in Islam.


----------



## potter 58 (Oct 22, 2009)

AH COME ON jEFF, THE HOLY ROLLERS BELIEVE IN FAITH AND HAVE BEEN IN COURT NUMEROUS TIMES TO PREVENT THEIR KIDS LIFE SAVING TREATMENTS, TRY ANFD KEEP UP


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## Kalam (Oct 22, 2009)

I find it funny that people have attempted to turn this into a religious issue when religion isn't mentioned anywhere in the article.



> Faleh Hassan Almaleki was angry with his daughter "as she had become too 'Westernized' and was not living according to [the family's] traditional Iraq_ values,"_


_

This is a cultural issue. Frankly, I find that surprising, because many of the Iraqis I know are some of the kindest and most "westernized" immigrants I've met._


----------



## Si modo (Oct 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> garyd said:
> 
> 
> > Okay nimrod please site me a Christian honor killing anywhere in the last 100 years.
> ...


Look at that, an A-rab 'honor' killing (of a guy).  _Quelle surprise_.


----------



## Kalam (Oct 22, 2009)

Si modo said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > garyd said:
> ...


Look at that, a poster who needs to work on her reading comprehension.

_Ahmed Saleh was killed by his wifes brother Rami Atef Khella, 28, who was angered by his sisters conversion to Islam three years earlier. Khella also shot his sister, Miriam, 25, and the couples 18-month daughter, Nora, who are in critical condition in the hospital.​_


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## Si modo (Oct 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Si modo said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...


She ain't dead, now is she?  You know: killing?  dead?    My reading seems significantly more effective than yours.

Regardless, it's an Arab.  No surprise.


----------



## Kalam (Oct 22, 2009)

Si modo said:


> [She ain't dead, now is she?    My reading seems significantly more effective than yours.



Neither is the girl in the OP's article; did you bother reading that? Does that make the crime more excusable in either case? 

Rest assured, reading comprehension doesn't seem to be a weakness of mine. You have attempted to pin this incident on Islam and Muslims when the article -- which doesn't specify the family's religious persuasion -- clearly states that the father's motivations were cultural.


----------



## Kalam (Oct 22, 2009)

Si modo said:


> Regardless, it's an Arab.  No surprise.



It's always good to garnish a hypocritical post with a little ethnic prejudice.


----------



## Si modo (Oct 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Si modo said:
> 
> 
> > Regardless, it's an Arab.  No surprise.
> ...


How is it hypocritical whenever I correct your dishonest representation of my words?  No ethnic prejudice at all, just statistical.


----------



## Si modo (Oct 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Si modo said:
> 
> 
> > [She ain't dead, now is she?    My reading seems significantly more effective than yours.
> ...


OK.  You're being dishonest again:  Where did I say the OP referred to a killing?  If you could read, or if you were honest, you would know I said "egregious violence" with respect to the OP.  And, it's a good bet an Arab family is Muslim.  Or would you like to dispute that?


----------



## Kalam (Oct 22, 2009)

Si modo said:


> How is it hypocritical whenever I correct your dishonest representation of my words?






Si modo said:


> No ethnic prejudice at all, just statistical.


According to which study?


----------



## Sunni Man (Oct 22, 2009)

Si modo said:


> And, it's a good bet an Arab family is Muslim.



Egypt alone has several million arab christians.

Turkey also has several million arab christians.

Syria, Iraq and Lebanon have fairly large arab christian communities. 
__________________


----------



## Si modo (Oct 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Si modo said:
> 
> 
> > How is it hypocritical whenever I correct your dishonest representation of my words?
> ...


The UN, Human Rights Watch, _et al_ (Wiki:  Honor Killings and references therein)


----------



## Si modo (Oct 22, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Si modo said:
> 
> 
> > And, it's a good bet an Arab family is Muslim.
> ...


No shit.  And the majority?


----------



## Modbert (Oct 22, 2009)

I did not know that Ralph Nader is a Arab Christian.

Arab Christians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

30 to 35 million is nothing to slouch at.


----------



## Si modo (Oct 22, 2009)

Dogbert said:


> I did not know that Ralph Nader is a Arab Christian.
> 
> Arab Christians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 30 to 35 million is nothing to slouch at.


Who said it was?  Oh, right, that was YOU.  

*I* said that it is a good bet that an Arab is a Muslim.  Do you want to dispute that?


----------



## Modbert (Oct 22, 2009)

Si modo said:


> Who said it was?  Oh, right, that was YOU.
> 
> *I* said that it is a good bet that an Arab is a Muslim.  Do you want to dispute that?



I never said it was. Considering there is a Arab Christian for every 10 other Arabs, I would say that it is a good bet that a Arab could be non-Muslim too. Not every other Arab also practices any religion either.


----------



## Si modo (Oct 22, 2009)

Dogbert said:


> Si modo said:
> 
> 
> > Who said it was?  Oh, right, that was YOU.
> ...


Maybe your bookie gives odds.  Mine gives even odds on this, so I bet that an Arab is likely a Muslim.


----------



## Kalam (Oct 22, 2009)

Si modo said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Si modo said:
> ...



I'm sorry, but I was unable to find any statistic indicating that Arabs perform the majority of "honor killings" after reading the article and looking through a few of the sources it cited. If I missed something, please post it here.


----------



## Si modo (Oct 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Si modo said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...


Actually, I doubt that.  As I said, you are not dumb, but I am learning about your dishonesty.  I have no doubt that you will not see (or claim not to see) anything in the entry.  I do not attempt to convince those in willful denial.  Others will inspect the link, though.


----------



## Kalam (Oct 22, 2009)

Si modo said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Si modo said:
> ...



Accusing me of dishonesty is a popular recourse among this forum's worst and dullest (particularly the aspirant orientalists who enjoy accusing me of "taqiyyah" .) I hope you don't count yourself among them. Here's what I did find.

According to a _National Geographic_ article cited by the Wikipedia page: "In India, for example, more than 5,000 brides die annually because their dowries are considered insufficient, according to the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF)." These brides are obviously non-Muslims because Islamic marriages do not involve dowries. On the Wikipedia page itself, it is mentioned that "[t]he United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA) estimates that the annual worldwide total of honor-killing victims may be as high as 5,000." What am I supposed to make of this? 

Sources:
Thousands of Women Killed for Family "Honor"
Honor killing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Kalam (Oct 22, 2009)

FWIW:

_And a believing man of Pharaoh&#8217;s people, who hid his faith, said: Will you slay a man because he says, My Lord is Allah, and indeed he has brought you clear arguments from your Lord? And if he be a liar, on him will be his lie, and if he be truthful, there will befall you some of that which he threatens you with. Surely Allah guides not one who is a prodigal, a liar._ - 40:28​


----------



## Si modo (Oct 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Accusing me of dishonesty is a popular recourse among this forum's worst and dullest (particularly the aspirant orientalists who enjoy accusing me of "taqiyyah" .) ....


If you're accusing me of calling you as one of the "taqiyyah", I haven't.  So now that that is clarified, you don't wear the victim-of-being-called-dishonest costume too well when in the last two hours I've nabbed you in your dishonesty twice, here:





Si modo said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Si modo said:
> ...


And here


Si modo said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Si modo said:
> ...



So, you own the dishonesty, Kalem.


----------



## Kalam (Oct 22, 2009)

Si modo said:


> You don't wear the victim-of-being-called-dishonest costume too well


Pretending to be a victim would involve acknowledging that my opponents possess some degree of superiority over me. The posters in question most certainly do not. 



Si modo said:


> when in the last two hours I've nabbed you in your dishonesty twice, here:
> 
> She ain't dead, now is she?  You know: killing?  dead?    My reading seems significantly more effective than yours.
> 
> Regardless, it's an Arab.  No surprise.


That was dishonest? Pointing out that you conveniently omitted the attempted murder of a woman and her infant child from your "summary" of the article? I respectfully disagree. Please do better than this if you're going to accuse me of something I view as a breach of my religious duty. 



Si modo said:


> And here
> 
> OK.  You're being dishonest again:  Where did I say the OP referred to a killing?  If you could read, or if you were honest, you would know I said "egregious violence" with respect to the OP.


While you seem to imply that an actual killing took place in post #38 of thread, you're right, you never unambiguously called the incident a murder. I apologize for this mistake; everybody else had done so and I'd assumed that you had as well.


----------



## Si modo (Oct 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Si modo said:
> 
> 
> > You don't wear the victim-of-being-called-dishonest costume too well
> ...



You dishonestly represented my words, Kalem.  You wear the dishonesty moniker well.  Or maybe you are just dull and can't understand the written word in my posts?

And your character leaves a lot to be desired as now you are trying to weasel out of your dishonesty.  Your dishonesty = telling others that I said the victim in the OP was killed + telling others that I said only the Egyptian man was killed when he was the only one who WAS killed.


----------



## Kalam (Oct 22, 2009)

Si modo said:


> You dishonestly represented my words, Kalem.


In the first example you cited, that's absolutely untrue. If anybody was peddling half-truths in that exchange, it was you. In the second example, I made a mistake out of carelessness. 



Si modo said:


> Or maybe you are just dull and can't understand the writtne word in my posts?


Maybe.


----------



## Si modo (Oct 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Si modo said:
> 
> 
> > You dishonestly represented my words, Kalem.
> ...


NOW you admit to it.  That's something.  Good. 



> ....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Check the edit.  Like typos never happen, but congrats on that skill requiring such a high level of intellect.


----------



## Kalam (Oct 22, 2009)

Si modo said:


> And your character leaves a lot to be desired as now you are trying to weasel out of your dishonesty.


Gosh, I'll have to remember not to call upon you as a character witness should the need ever arise.



Si modo said:


> Your dishonesty = telling others that I said the victim in the OP was killed


This was a careless error for which I've already taken responsibility.



Si modo said:


> telling others that I said only the Egyptian man was killed when he was the only one who WAS killed.


I think that attempted fratricide and infanticide were details worth mentioning. I think you knew this as well.


----------



## Kalam (Oct 22, 2009)

Si modo said:


> NOW you admit to it.  That's something.  Good.


"Now"? See post #82.



Si modo said:


> Check the edit.  Like typos never happen, but congrats on that skill requiring such a high level of intellect.


Thank you.


----------



## Si modo (Oct 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> [edited out already addressed drivel from you]
> I think that attempted fratricide and infanticide were details worth mentioning. I think you knew this as well.


Sure it was worth mentioning.  You didn't just mention it though, your implication was that I lied when I said the guy was the only one who was killed.

Don't lie to me or about my words.  I accept opposing views but I give dishonesty about my words no quarter.


----------



## Kalam (Oct 22, 2009)

Si modo said:


> Sure it was worth mentioning.


What made you change your mind?



Si modo said:


> You didn't just mention it though, your implication was that I lied when I said the guy was the only one who was killed.


I'm not sure why you think this. The short passage I posted specifically mentioned that the daughter and mother were at a hospital... I simply thought that it was dishonest of you to leave that detail out.


----------



## Si modo (Oct 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Si modo said:
> 
> 
> > Sure it was worth mentioning.
> ...


How did I change my mind?

Don't weasel again.  


> ....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I left nothing out.  YOU provided the link.  ALL of the information is there.  The man was the only one who was killed, which is EXACTLY what I said.

You're being dishonest again and weaseling.

I am tenacious, too, whenever that happens.  

And, it was another 'honor' killing by an Arab.  No surprise.


----------



## Kalam (Oct 22, 2009)

Si modo said:


> How did I change my mind?


You apparently didn't think it was worth mentioning, because... well... you didn't mention it. 



Si modo said:


> I left nothing out. YOU provided the link.  The man was the only one who was killed.


The impression I got from your post was that you mistakenly believed that nothing else had occurred.



Si modo said:


> You're being dishonest again and weaseling.


So you keep saying. 



Si modo said:


> And, it was another 'honor' killing by an Arab.  No surprise.


Based on the information you told me to examine, I'd say that this isn't a statistical likelihood as you suggested it was. I wonder if a thread about a Hindu bride-slaying would be as popular as this one? After all, Indian Hindus seem to be more prone to honor killing than any other single ethnoreligious group. How many vitriolic denunciations of Hinduism do you think such a thread would produce?


----------



## Maple (Oct 22, 2009)

These people are again showing their extreme ignorance and intolerance of any and all who do not believe what they have stupidly bought into.


----------



## Kalam (Oct 22, 2009)

Maple said:


> These people are again showing their extreme ignorance and intolerance of any and all who do not believe what they have stupidly bought into.



I'm not sure who you're referring to, but I'd say that this statement applies to the perpetrator of the crime as well as to several of the participants in this thread. Especially the ones that are so gung-ho about turning this into a religious issue and claiming that America and Islam are "incompatible."


----------



## Si modo (Oct 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Si modo said:
> 
> 
> > How did I change my mind?
> ...


As my mentioning it would be redundant; all of the information was in the link.  I am efficient.  Some have issues with efficiency.  Yet, you called that dishonest.  How bizarre of you.



> ....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And that erroneous assumption of yours made you look like an ass, thus the test of time for the adage about assumptions.



> ....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As an honest poster, of course I would keep saying it. 



> ....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Still, it's no surprise that both acts of violence - the OP and the Egyptian 'honor' killing - are by Arabs.

As I said, I accept that you are in denial that Arabs are known for their honor killings.  Maybe if more Arabs who oppose that speak out about it rather than giving tacit approval through deflection and marginalization, that would change.


----------



## GHook93 (Oct 22, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Si modo said:
> 
> 
> > And, it's a good bet an Arab family is Muslim.
> ...



Egypt 90% Muslim
Turkey 98% Muslim
Syria 95% Muslim
Iraq 98% Muslim
Lebanon used to have a Christian majority and now they make up close to 25%! They are getting ethnically cleansed out of Lebanon!


----------



## Si modo (Oct 22, 2009)

GHook93 said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Si modo said:
> ...


Place your bets, folks.


----------



## Zander (Oct 22, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Si modo said:
> 
> 
> > How did I change my mind?
> ...



Honor killings are wrong regardless of who does them, whether it is Hindus, Rastafarians, or Christians.  But remember, as horrible as they are, honor killings are not mass murder.  The only people that regularly commit mass murder in the name of religion are Muslims.


----------



## Kalam (Oct 22, 2009)

Si modo said:


> As my mentioning it would be redundant;


Then why did you mention any of it in the first place? 



Si modo said:


> And that erroneous assumption of yours made you look like an ass, thus the test of time for the adage about assumptions.


What else was I to assume? You left out the worst parts of the man's crime. I wouldn't have thought that you'd do that on purpose. 



Si modo said:


> As an honest poster, of course I would keep saying it.


It sounds like you're desperately trying to convince yourself that I'm dishonest by making sure to let me know whenever the opportunity presents itself. Do it as much as you'd like; I wouldn't last long as a Muslim online if I didn't have a high tolerance for inane accusations of dishonesty. 



Si modo said:


> Still, it's no surprise that both acts of violence - the OP and the Egyptian 'honor' killing - are by Arabs.
> 
> As I said, I accept that you are in denial that Arabs are known for their honor killings.


Well, one of the articles was from an Egyptian publication, so I'd expect it to deal mostly with things involving Arabs. Regarding the CNN article, yes, I'm quite aware of the trend in the mainstream media that involves emphasizing stories such as that one over accounts of much more common atrocities.



Si modo said:


> Maybe if more Arabs who oppose that speak out about it rather than giving tacit approval through deflection and marginalization, that would change.


Yes, maybe. I'd recommend bringing this to the attention of an Arab.


----------



## Kalam (Oct 23, 2009)

GHook93 said:


> Lebanon used to have a Christian majority and now they make up close to 25%!



That would be about 40%. 



GHook93 said:


> They are getting ethnically cleansed out of Lebanon!


The most significant act of Lebanese "ethnic cleansing" was the other way around. You should remember this one:

Sabra and Shatila massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Kalam (Oct 23, 2009)

Zander said:


> Honor killings are wrong regardless of who does them, whether it is Hindus, Rastafarians, or Christians.  But remember, as horrible as they are, honor killings are not mass murder.  The only people that regularly commit mass murder in the name of religion are Muslims.



You don't really believe that, do you? As bad as "Islamic" terrorist groups can be, none of them can hold a candle to groups such as the LRA:

Lord's Resistance Army (LRA)

_"The LRA rebels say they are fighting for the establishment of a government based on the biblical Ten Commandments."_


----------



## Si modo (Oct 23, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Si modo said:
> 
> 
> > As my mentioning it would be redundant;
> ...


Because YOU brought it up!  



> .....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


YOUR assumption; YOUR responsibility for it.  YOU own it.


> ....  It sounds like you're desperately trying to convince yourself that I'm dishonest by making sure to let me know whenever the opportunity presents itself. ....


When you dishonesty reperesent MY written words, IN WRITING, there is not much left to the imaginiation, eh?



> ....  Do it as much as you'd like; I wouldn't last long as a Muslim online if I didn't have a high tolerance for inane accusations of dishonesty.  ....


Your dishonesty is in WRITING - on record.  And, I've even highlighted it.

LMFAO!



> ....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh, it's the media's fault and not the Muslims and Arabs who kill mostly women? How pathetic your continued apologetics for such egregious violence against mostly women are.

You continue to deflect, apologize, attempt _tu quoque_ and it all is continued tacit approval of not just oppression of women, but violence against them.

Misogynists suck.


----------



## Zander (Oct 23, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Zander said:
> 
> 
> > Honor killings are wrong regardless of who does them, whether it is Hindus, Rastafarians, or Christians.  But remember, as horrible as they are, honor killings are not mass murder.  The only people that regularly commit mass murder in the name of religion are Muslims.
> ...



The key word in my post was "REGULARLY".  You can find a fringe religious group that commits atrocities occasionally,  if you dig deep enough.  Muslims commit mass murder on a daily basis.  Only Muslims strap bombs on children and make them Suicide bombers with startling regularity.


----------



## Kalam (Oct 23, 2009)

Si modo said:


> Because YOU brought it up!


What was the purpose of post #62?



Si modo said:


> Your dishonesty is in WRITING - on record.  And, I've even highlighted it.


Look, my intention has never been to misrepresent anything that you or anybody else has said, so I apologize if I've done that unwittingly. Cut the crap so we can have a substantive discussion, huh?



Si modo said:


> Oh, it's the media's fault and not the Muslims and Arabs who kill mostly women?


Fault for what?



Si modo said:


> How pathetic your continued apologetics for such egregious violence against mostly women are.
> 
> You continue to deflect, apologize, attempt _tu quoque_ and it all is continued tacit approval of not just oppression of women, but violence against them.


You don't know me at all, let alone well enough to pass judgment on my beliefs about the rights of women. 



Si modo said:


> Misogynists suck.


You have no idea what true misogyny is. That's not an insult; it's a good thing... be thankful.


----------



## Kalam (Oct 23, 2009)

Zander said:


> The key word in my post was "REGULARLY".  You can find a fringe religious group that commits atrocities occasionally,  if you dig deep enough.  Muslims commit mass murder on a daily basis.


Were you under the impression that the LRA only operates on certain days? 



Zander said:


> Only Muslims strap bombs on children and make them Suicide bombers with startling regularity.


This should be interesting. How many child suicide bombers, in your estimation, self-detonate per year?


----------



## Zander (Oct 23, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Zander said:
> 
> 
> > The key word in my post was "REGULARLY".  You can find a fringe religious group that commits atrocities occasionally,  if you dig deep enough.  Muslims commit mass murder on a daily basis.
> ...



How many non-Muslim child suicide bombers, in your estimation, self-detonate per year?


----------



## Kalam (Oct 23, 2009)

Si modo said:


> Oh, it's the media's fault and not the Muslims and Arabs who kill mostly women? How pathetic your continued apologetics for such egregious violence against mostly women are.
> 
> You continue to deflect, apologize, attempt _tu quoque_ and it all is continued tacit approval of not just oppression of women, but violence against them.
> 
> Misogynists suck.



Go back to my first post in this thread.


----------



## Smartt33 (Oct 23, 2009)

potter 58 said:


> idiots for certain, but read up on ChristiNAITY, NOT MUCH BETTER, AND IF THE WINGNUTS GET THEIR WAY IT'S COMING BACK, SOONER RATHER THAN LATER



Yoiu are foaming at the mouth, so you might want to put some facts behind those words. Just saying that means nothing.


----------



## GHook93 (Oct 23, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Si modo said:
> 
> 
> > Oh, it's the media's fault and not the Muslims and Arabs who kill mostly women? How pathetic your continued apologetics for such egregious violence against mostly women are.
> ...



Kalam,

Not surprising to see you come in and basically try to ignore the fact that this was an Islamofacist motivated killing!


----------



## Coyote (Oct 23, 2009)

Si modo said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Si modo said:
> ...



They also have sizeable minorities that are neither Muslim nor Christian, nor Arab yet they seem to get lumped under "Muslim"..."Arab"....

Turkey is not Arab and neither are the Lebonese.


----------



## Coyote (Oct 23, 2009)

Si modo said:


> As I said, I accept that you are in denial that Arabs are known for their honor killings.  Maybe if more Arabs who oppose that speak out about it rather than giving tacit approval through deflection and marginalization, that would change.



All this back and forth about Arabs and Muslims and Honor Killings and the deliberate insistence that we ignore the multitude of honor killings occuring in other ethnic groups and religions leads to only one conclusion.

You really don't give a shit about honor killings.  Only about Ay-rabs and Muslims doing it.


----------



## MaggieMae (Oct 23, 2009)

GHook93 said:


> How many times are we going to see these honor killing done by Muslim upon their own children in the name of Islam? How much longer are we going to let liberals allow us to believe its not a danger? How long are we going to let liberals stand behind their unholy alliance and protect Islamist when they do the unthinkable!
> 
> 
> Precursor: Fuck you Shogun, Fuck you Sunni, Fuck You Dogshit and Fuck You Cunticious!
> ...


_

The barbarism has been going on for centuries. Just what is it you want the US to do about it? 

A comprehensive demographic study of more than 200 countries finds that there are 1.57 billion Muslims of all ages living in the world today, representing 23% of an estimated 2009 world population of 6.8 billion.

While Muslims are found on all five inhabited continents, more than 60% of the global Muslim population is in Asia and about 20% is in the Middle East and North Africa. However, the Middle East-North Africa region has the highest percentage of Muslim-majority countries.

Pew Forum: Global Muslim Population: Executive Summary_


----------



## Charles Stucker (Oct 23, 2009)

Zander said:


> Honor killings are wrong regardless of who does them, whether it is Hindus, Rastafarians, or Christians.  But remember, as horrible as they are, honor killings are not mass murder.  The only people that regularly commit mass murder in the name of religion are Muslims.



Because of course the Spanish Inquisition was authorized by the Sultan of Rum.


----------



## mdn2000 (Oct 23, 2009)

This thread is about Moslems so why do the morons want to talk about other religions. Why do the Liberal fools always want to take any subject and use said issue to make the USA look bad. For the Liberals every issue is an oppurtunity to change the subject and focus on who Liberals really hate, plain old american citizens. Forget about Moslems killing in the name of Islam, there is a child raper loose and he went to a baptist church.

This thread is a good example of the Liberal morons politicizing every issue to advance the Liberal/Marxist agenda to destroy all that is good in the USA.

And to all you morons who attempt to seperate this into a cultural issue and not a religous issue, this just shows you know nothing of Islam, period. It shows you morons have not read any decent book on the Middle East. 

What is obvious is the Islamic mind has not changed much in over 400 years. I will give the morons the fact that honour killings are rare in the world of Islam. That is irrelevant to this discussion. The killings are rare, after all a girl is taught to submit as soon as the girl is born, every day the girl is indoctrinated, every day she taught to submit. 

A child taught from day one to submit seldom even thinks of disobeying men. Hence not too many honour killings.

As far as what is written in the Koran, there is no Arabic word for honour so its obvious that one could not find this subject in the Koran. What is in the Koran is passages dealing with the unclean, which this killing would fall under, you know why the father used his car, because in Islam the holy do not touch the filthy unholy which in the eyes of the father is what this girl became. 

The clean and the unclean, the holy and the unholy, according to the Koran the whole world is thus divided, unbelievers, christians, jews are unclean, unholy. Touching the unholy renders a Moslem impure. Hence the father ran his daughter over with a car. 

Hell, if you shake hands with a devout Moslem his lips will be moving as the Moslem shakes a non-moslems hand, the devout Moslem is citing the prayer of purification.

Clueless morons, the Koran explicitly deals with the unholy. 

Yes go look in the Koran, how about the Hadith, can I look in the Hadith, does the Hadith talk of Apotasy.

And its Qur'an, not quran.

So why have the "islamic experts" not pointed out where Mohammed explicitly speaks of Apotasy, simple, those posting know very little of Islam.


----------



## Coyote (Oct 23, 2009)

mdn2000 said:


> This thread is about Moslems so why do the morons want to talk about other religions. Why do the Liberal fools always want to take any subject and use said issue to make the USA look bad. For the Liberals every issue is an oppurtunity to change the subject and focus on who Liberals really hate, plain old american citizens. Forget about Moslems killing in the name of Islam, there is a child raper loose and he went to a baptist church.
> 
> This thread is a good example of the Liberal morons politicizing every issue to advance the Liberal/Marxist agenda to destroy all that is good in the USA.
> 
> ...



Oh my gosh, I'm soooo sorry we tried to interrupt your ignorant anti-Muslim hate fest, it was so naughty of us to try to point out a few facts about honor killings that don't seem to jive with your talking points.

Carry on.

Oh, wait - you aren't the thread police are you?

P.S.  As far as spelling is concerned - the word for the holy book of Islam is a phonetic translation from Arab into the English alphabet.  "Koran," "Quran,", "al-Quran" and "Quoran" are all acceptable.


----------



## MaggieMae (Oct 23, 2009)

mdn2000 said:


> This thread is about Moslems so why do the morons want to talk about other religions. Why do the Liberal fools always want to take any subject and use said issue to make the USA look bad. For the Liberals every issue is an oppurtunity to change the subject and focus on who Liberals really hate, plain old american citizens. Forget about Moslems killing in the name of Islam, there is a child raper loose and he went to a baptist church.
> 
> This thread is a good example of the Liberal morons politicizing every issue to advance the Liberal/Marxist agenda to destroy all that is good in the USA.
> 
> ...



Sooo...once again, what would you do about it?


----------



## mdn2000 (Oct 23, 2009)

Coyote, I am so sorry I did not specify you are a moron, feel better now. The only person spewing hate is you. Why do you hate those who have a better education than you. Try reading "Life in the Moslem East, Peirre Ponafidine", after that you can tackle "Deserta Arabia by Doughty", Deserta Arabia will be tough for you, over a thousand pages.

Get an education, either way I see you attacking me, not the facts I posted.

Coyote, maybe you can tell us how the Hadith is a talking point, what is obvious is Coyote is ignorant, imagine describing the Hadith as a talking point, nice way to show all the users how stupid you are Coyote.



'Umdat al-Salik o8.1-2


----------



## Charles Stucker (Oct 23, 2009)

mdn2000 said:


> This thread is about Moslems so why do the morons want to talk about other religions.
> 
> This thread is a good example of the Liberal morons politicizing every issue to advance the Liberal/Marxist agenda to destroy all that is good in the USA.


This thread is about Religion so why do the morons want to talk about politics?


----------



## Coyote (Oct 23, 2009)

mdn2000 said:


> Coyote, I am so sorry I did not specify you are a moron, feel better now.



Indeed I do.  It is very comforting to know that you have properly certified me as a "moron" rather than a moron-wannabe. 



> The only person spewing hate is you.  Why do you hate those who have a better education than you. *Try reading* "Life in the Moslem East, Peirre Ponafidine", after that you can tackle "Deserta Arabia by Doughty", Deserta Arabia will be tough for you, over a thousand pages.



Yes.  Try reading., it will improve your debate. 



> Get an education, either way I see you attacking me, not the facts I posted.



I've attacked facts earlier in a thread.  When you post something where every other word seems to be "you morons" don't expect the argument you are attempting to make to be taken seriously.  Normally, that's a clue the poster isn't worth serious debate.



> Coyote, maybe you can tell us how the Hadith is a talking point, what is obvious is Coyote is ignorant, imagine describing the Hadith as a talking point, nice way to show all the users how stupid you are Coyote.



Cherry picking the Hadith is little more than reiterating typical Islamophobic talking points.  

Culture or religion?  Maybe both.

Islam today is facing a collision between a medievil mindset and the modern world of women.  But it isn't just Islam - many of the countries that are predominately Islamic are also newly developing.  There are many cultures that are in the process of developing and women are seeking emancipation from the status of property.  It occurs in some varient in South America, India, China, Africa etc.  But you don't really care about that do you?  Islam has a way out of "honor killings" in that it is not part of the Quran, but part of the culture that brought about the Quran - the same culture that brought about Christianity and Judaism too.  The Middle East.  But Middle Eastern cultures -whether they are Islamic, Christian, Druze, or any of a number of sects are very fundamentalist and rigid in regards to women.


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## actsnoblemartin (Oct 23, 2009)

hi, im a christian hater, i mean liberal

christians are just as bad as muslims

oh yeah well centuries ago, the inquisitions

you know what drunks as christian hating liberal have in common, neither makes any sense


----------



## Coyote (Oct 23, 2009)

actsnoblemartin said:


> hi, im a christian hater, i mean liberal
> 
> christians are just as bad as muslims
> 
> ...



Oh boy.  Another superficial retard. 

...or maybe you just don't have a good grasp of grammar and capitalization.


----------



## mdn2000 (Oct 23, 2009)

Charles Stucker said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> > This thread is about Moslems so why do the morons want to talk about other religions.
> ...



I dont see the word Religion in the title of the thread do you, I do see Islamist which is moslem, the thread was about a moslem killing his daughter. 

Of course when speaking of Moslems the religion is politics. 

so whats wrong chuck stucker, you cant despute the facts. you lack the education, or are you pissed because the Liberal/Marxist shoe fits you? Must be that Chuck identifies himself (or herself) as a marxist. 

Uneducated idiots, simple morons, political hacks, propagandists, got to twist every current event and use it to stab the USA in the back. 

I see people who hate the USA, the USA gives all of you those nice computers you post with, christians, conservatives, capitalists all work hard so you pathetic morons can post on these boards, we sweat producing all you fools cherish, and instead of discussing the subject you twist it to bite the hand that feeds.

MaggieMae, what would I do, what would you do, tell me what you will do about this killing. 

There is not one bit of hate in what I posted, at least not directed at Moslems. There is plenty of hate in Coyote's post, that hate is directed at me, that is the ugliest hate of all, to be a bigot and accuse others of what you hide in your heart. 

MaggieMae, why dont you question Coyote's bigotry. What are you going to do about that.

MaggieMae, what are you going to do about Coyote mischaracterizing my post as an "anti-muslim hate fest". You okay with a deliberate lie or if not a lie a person of substandard intelligence not understanding what they read, what are you going to do about that.

I gave four or five sources in my post, one being from Mohammed himself. 

Whats would I do, I would do what I did, post facts with references so that those with a heart, passion, and love can read for themselves. 

Fucking prick considers his daughter to be unclean, unholy according to his religion, so in accordance with his religion he does not defile his body by touching the unclean, so he uses his car to run his daughter over, in accordance with the teachings of Mohammed, as it is his culture. 

The girls is dead, some of you should be ashamed of yourselves, really ashamed. 


Right now I am on Litchfield rd in Goodyear AZ. Just a few miles from where this happened, I have studied the Middle East extensively, hence my ability to provide you fools with a good source, such as Ponafidine's book, download it from google books, I have my personal copy in my hands right now. Go to Chapter V, Sunnites and Shites and the Relics of the Prophet, page 78 speaks of touching the unclean. 

Go read the Hadith, look up Hadith in a dictionary so you know what it is.

Read Arabia Deserta. 

What am I going to do, educate those who care, tell off those who dont and put the Liberal/Marxist in their place.


----------



## Coyote (Oct 23, 2009)

mdn2000 said:


> MaggieMae, why dont you question Coyote's bigotry. What are you going to do about that.



What bigotry mdn?  Seems like if you're going to throw labels around you ought to warn the recipient.  Care to back up that assertion?



> MaggieMae, what are you going to do about Coyote mischaracterizing my post as an "anti-muslim hate fest". You okay with a deliberate lie or if not a lie a person of substandard intelligence not understanding what they read, what are you going to do about that.



And "anti-muslim hate fest" is at least as accurate as your constant refrains of "you morons". If you don't like being mischaracterized then watch yer own words bubby. 

Dang....looks like I pricked some thin skin here...


----------



## Charles Stucker (Oct 23, 2009)

mdn2000 said:


> Charles Stucker said:
> 
> 
> > mdn2000 said:
> ...


You really are an imbecile aren't you? Have you read this thread? Did you miss the point of my post which was to mock your inability to be consistent? You know "This is about A not B, so let me talk about B"
In case it slipped your notice a thread about Moslems (sic) is a thread about religion.
In case it also slipped your notice, perhaps you should search this thread for the post I put in about executing the father if/when the crime was proven in court. I even followed with a bit about making aspiring immigrants pay for a government appointed psychologist to weed out the nutjobs like this, as well as may be done, and deny them entrance. So how is that a Liberal/Marxist stance designed to destroy the good in the USA?
Oh please forgive me, did I use more than just monosyllabic words and confuse you?


----------



## Sunni Man (Oct 23, 2009)

mdn2000 said:


> the USA *gives* all of you those nice computers you post with



Dang!!!

Where was the line forming for the FREE computers???  

I had to spend my own money for mine


----------



## mdn2000 (Oct 23, 2009)

> I've attacked facts earlier in a thread. When you post something where every other word seems to be "you morons" don't expect the argument you are attempting to make to be taken seriously. Normally, that's a clue the poster isn't worth serious debate



Yes coyote, you are so above the fray, coyote only debates making articulate points



> Oh my gosh, I'm soooo sorry we tried to interrupt your ignorant anti-Muslim hate fest, it was so naughty of us to try to point out a few facts about honor killings that don't seem to jive with your talking points.
> 
> Carry on.
> 
> Oh, wait - you aren't the thread police are you?



Yep, so above the fray, ignoring those not worthy of debate, no name calling, no bigotry, no mischarcaterizing. 

What is a moron, as I used the word, its one of inferior intelligence. I use the word here because it fit. I see morons who cannot debate the facts, I see morons daring one to point out where in the Koran condones honor killing. So its a moron who thinks the Koran is the last and only word in the Moslem world.

As far as cherry picking the Hadith, quit being a Moron, the Hadith is Mohammeds word as spoken, as commanded. No cherry picking, I did not even quote the Hadith, I simply pointed out if one wanted to debate intelligently or if one wanted to know what is written the Hadith is a very important work. 

So coyote, you are a moron, you accuse me of cherry picking the Hadith when I did not quote the Hadith. 

Coyote also states


> your ingorant anti-Muslim hate fest



Coyote does not think one who uses the word Moron should be taken serious in a debate but yet its okay for coyote to mischaracterize my post and to mischaracterize me. Coyote cannot debate nor take serious me because I used the word moron yet we are to believe we can debate Coyote when Coyote falsely calls my post "anti-Muslim hate fest".

Coyote, I am tired of your anti-chrsitian, anti-usa hate fest. 

Coyote is telling others what to think of my post as if others do not have the intelligence to read the post and to look at my reference material. Why would Coyote have to tell others to ignore and how to think, Coyote must think everyone is stupid and unable to come to their own judgement. 

Ignorant, only if Coyote is pointing at herself (or himself). Igorant is why only the messenger was attacked and the facts were left standing.


----------



## GHook93 (Oct 23, 2009)

She ran away because she feared for her life! Close to being another honor killing in America!



> Christian Convert Runaway Tells Officials Father Planned Her Marriage - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News - FOXNews.com
> ORLANDO, Fla.   Ohio teen runaway Fathima Rifqa Bary told Florida investigators about her religious conversion, explained how and why she ended up in Florida and detailed a fearful life with her Muslim family, including the fact she was supposed to be in an arranged marriage.
> 
> A month after she ran away from her home outside Columbus, the 17-year-old girl met with several investigators with the Florida Department of Law Enforcement for more than two hours and answered questions about her journey to Florida and her family life.
> ...


----------



## Sunni Man (Oct 23, 2009)

mdn2000 said:


> if you shake hands with a devout Moslem his lips will be moving as the Moslem shakes a non-moslems hand, the devout Moslem is citing the prayer of purification.



Most likely mdn2000, the muslim you are talking to is muttering under his breath, "how did I end up talking to this ignorant jerk"??


----------



## mdn2000 (Oct 23, 2009)

Apostasy is addressed in the Hadith

Life in the Moslem East addresses the unclean and unholy

Arabia Deserta is the bible, the reference used by all scholars, Arabia Deserta explains Moslem culture in clear detail.

The Qur'an is interpeted many different ways by many different people, on its own, a fools arguement.

Chuck, you missed my point about Morons, only an imbecile would be drawn into a debate with a moron. The premise of your post is wrong hence nothing I can respond to.

Sunni, you are a lousy fuck, seriously, you called me racist, I am married to an African and you cowardly show your cowardice by telling me the Grand Dragon is waiting for me. 

You see, there is more than one Moron is this thread, the moron assumed I was specifically speaking to you, I did not specifically call anyone a moron at first but many of you decided you must be the moron I spoke of. I do have a problem with Sunni, Sunni said a nasty remark to me so when I see Sunni posting I see a moron, ignorance is the biggest problem of many people. Imagine calling a white man married to a black african a racist. Nothing more moronic nor more ignorant. 

I did not specifically call anyone a moron by user name unitl those who felt slighted attacked and mischaracterized my post. If you dont like it now its too bad, you showed yourselves to be no better and in fact of less character than I. 

I dont even remember who kept posting, "where in the qur'an", "show me a quote in the Qur'an", yet its a post such as this that is moronic, seriously, very moronic. The Koran can and is interpetted in many ways. To constantly challenge all you disagree with to cite a soucrce in the Koran while being ignorant of the Hadith is moronic. Further if one knew about the Hadith they did not bring that knowledge into the debate which again is moronic. 

Yet it does not end there, with so many books written of the culture of Islam (religion is an inseperable part of Islamic culture) again its moronic to keep posting "where in the qur'an" as if one cannot find the relevance in the koran than ones assertion about honour killings is wrong. 

So quit being morons.


----------



## mdn2000 (Oct 23, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> > if you shake hands with a devout Moslem his lips will be moving as the Moslem shakes a non-moslems hand, the devout Moslem is citing the prayer of purification.
> ...



Who is sunni, sunni insulted me personally, Sunni knows I am a white conservative married to an African woman and Sunni tells me the Grand Dragon of the KKK is waiting for me. What am I to think of you Sunni, why should I not throw around the word moron where you post, (kind of funny so many others thought I was speaking directly to them, oh well, only a moron would think that so it fits.) But back to you sunni, you owe me an apology. What am I to think of you when you post such a hateful comment.

How can anyone be surprised or act slighted if I choose to call users moron. Users such as Sunni post such ignorant and hateful comments directed at others simply because they lack the education to debate facts.

I guess it dont matter if a white conservative marries a black african, its still fine to tell me the Grand Dragon of the KKK is waithing for me. 

To state such a hatefilled comment out of ignorance or because you disagree with me politically or because you cannot dispute my facts and logic is the act of someone much more than simply a moron. 

Yep Sunni, your a real funny asshole. Someone else said it best, a coward hiding behind a computer.


----------



## Coyote (Oct 23, 2009)

mdn2000 said:


> > I've attacked facts earlier in a thread. When you post something where every other word seems to be "you morons" don't expect the argument you are attempting to make to be taken seriously. Normally, that's a clue the poster isn't worth serious debate
> 
> 
> 
> Yes coyote, you are so above the fray, coyote only debates making articulate points



Nah...nothing so intellectual as that.  I just go with the poster's flow and treat "morons" like...well...you know..."morons" 

Unless they give me cause to treat them otherwise. 



> Yep, so above the fray, ignoring those not worthy of debate, no name calling, no bigotry, no mischarcaterizing.
> 
> What is a moron, as I used the word, its one of inferior intelligence. I use the word here because it fit. I see morons who cannot debate the facts, I see morons daring one to point out where in the Koran condones honor killing. So its a moron who thinks the Koran is the last and only word in the Moslem world.



Buddy, when you start out with name calling don't start whining when others treat you the same or refuse to debate your points seriously.  You set the tone.

The problem isn't necessarily the facts oh one-of-such-vaunted-intelligence, but rather the conclusions you attempt to draw from them and those have been debated but you try to side track such debates by insisting on focusing on only Islam.  As has been pointed out, up to 5,000 honor killings take place every year across the world from India to North America. You have Muslims, Druze, Sikhs and Christians guilty of it, yet in the media it is only Islam associated with this barbaric practice.

Honor killing predates Islam.  The Codes of Hammurabi and Assura, some of the earliest set of laws state that a woman's virginity belongs to the family.  Honor killings were permitted in ancient Rome with Cato stating: "If you catch your wife in adultery, you can kill her with impunity..."  This attitude is still very much alive today around the world.

The Koran is not necessarily the last word but it IS (didn't you say it was spelled Quran?) the book that every Muslim reads and knows.  The Hadith are massive, sometimes contradictory, and involve every aspect of how to live a good Muslim life, and the average Muslim has probably never read it and never will.

Islamic scholars say that none of the religious laws can justify honor killing...that Sharia is against the act because the husbands or families should refer to the law rather than carrying out their own punishment. 



> As far as cherry picking the Hadith, quit being a Moron, the Hadith is Mohammeds word as spoken, as commanded. No cherry picking, I did not even quote the Hadith, I simply pointed out if one wanted to debate intelligently or if one wanted to know what is written the Hadith is a very important work.
> 
> So coyote, you are a moron, you accuse me of cherry picking the Hadith when I did not quote the Hadith.



Point taken 




> Coyote also states
> 
> 
> > your ingorant anti-Muslim hate fest
> ...



Thin skin eh? 



> Coyote, I am tired of your anti-chrsitian, anti-usa hate fest.



What "anti-chrsitian, anti-usa hate fest. "?



> Coyote is telling others what to think of my post as if others do not have the intelligence to read the post and to look at my reference material. Why would Coyote have to tell others to ignore and how to think, Coyote must think everyone is stupid and unable to come to their own judgement.



Coyote thinks you grant your words waaaaayyyyyy too much importance here.  Coyote also thinks talking third person is moronic.



> Ignorant, only if Coyote is pointing at herself (or himself). Igorant is why only the messenger was attacked and the facts were left standing.



Speaking of facts....you seem not to have addressed any of them so why are you so concerned?


----------



## GHook93 (Oct 23, 2009)

mdn2000 said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > mdn2000 said:
> ...



Wait so does that mean you don't bring your wife to the KKK rallies?


----------



## mdn2000 (Oct 23, 2009)

Coyote said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> > MaggieMae, why dont you question Coyote's bigotry. What are you going to do about that.
> ...




Coyote, your right, I am sorry, okay I will take your advice. 

WATCH OUT COYOTE, I AM GOING TO THROW LABELS AROUND IF YOU POST STUPID COMMENTS OR ATTEMPT POST LIES OR FALSEHOODS.

thin skin, ha, ha, all coyote has done is made a joke, nothing more. my post is left untouched, the facts remain.

The father runs over his child with a car so as to not become defiled by what the fathers culture/religion has taught the father to be unclean and Coyote wishes to distract from this. 

I am really sorry that morons just dont care.

I am really sorry that morons will dismiss not one source, but multiple accurate books cited by every credible scholar who studies Islam.

Only a moron would call Arabia Deserta " ingorant anti-Muslim hate fest".

Only a moron would state I cherry picked the Hadith when I did not quote the Hadith, I simply stated the Hadith addresses Apostasy. 

Anyhow this thread is about a woman murdered by a father, amazining how this has seemed to be forgotten simply so that Coyote can demonize Christians, Conservatives, and the USA.


----------



## Sunni Man (Oct 23, 2009)

mdn2000 said:


> you called me racist, I am married to an African and you cowardly show your cowardice by telling me the Grand Dragon is waiting for me.



Just because you are married to a hottentot woman.

You act like you deserve a medal or something.


----------



## Coyote (Oct 23, 2009)

mdn2000 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > mdn2000 said:
> ...



Damn you callow jerk.  Now you've made me  cry. 

Ok, done with that.



> The father runs over his child with a car *so as to not become defiled by what the fathers culture/religion has taught the father to be unclean* and Coyote wishes to distract from this.



Um...no.  I'm just trying to figure out where in the initial article it says that.  Never mind, it doesn't.



> I am really sorry that morons just dont care.



About what?  Brutal, barbaric culturally condoned practices against women?  You bet I care! 



> I am really sorry that morons will dismiss not one source, but multiple accurate books cited by every credible scholar who studies Islam.



Look sweetcheeks, you're flinging around titles of books a dime a dozen as if they are supposed to mean anything.  As books, ya they do - but they aren't the only books and writings of importance on the Middle East and Islam and honor killings are not confined to those cultures.  You aren't sourcing your claims beyond just titles and you seem to think that is sufficient to end all debate on the matter and your opinion should not be contradicted.

Then you decide that we'll frame this debate around on the Muslim religion alone ignoring all other cultural practices of "honor killing" refusing to address those points at all.  



> Only a moron would call Arabia Deserta " ingorant anti-Muslim hate fest".



Only a moron would think I was talking about the book when I said that 



> Only a moron would state I cherry picked the Hadith when I did not quote the Hadith, I simply stated the Hadith addresses Apostasy.
> 
> Anyhow this thread is about a woman murdered by a father, amazining how this has seemed to be forgotten simply so that Coyote can demonize Christians, Conservatives, and the USA.



Whoah Bubba!  You've expanded my repetoire, how can I keep up!    Not only am I anti-Christian, anti-America, and demonizing Christians but I'm demonizing conservatives too! 

Oh lord please grant me eternal access to all the roadkill on this ideological highway ::


----------



## mdn2000 (Oct 23, 2009)

Coyote said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> > > I've attacked facts earlier in a thread. When you post something where every other word seems to be "you morons" don't expect the argument you are attempting to make to be taken seriously. Normally, that's a clue the poster isn't worth serious debate
> ...



Thin skin, far from it, this is just the internet, nothing more than a game at best, I may educate a few, I may not, thats all. When its all over its over, if I ever met you I would buy you a beer and hope you are mature enough to have a drink on me and we will laugh about our tit for tat. 

I wont address your last post, you can have the last word, my point was made and my facts remain.


----------



## Againsheila (Oct 23, 2009)

potter 58 said:


> idiots for certain, but read up on ChristiNAITY, NOT MUCH BETTER, AND IF THE WINGNUTS GET THEIR WAY IT'S COMING BACK, SOONER RATHER THAN LATER



Really?  Are you sure about that?  "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" too much for you?  Can't stand the fact that Jesus said loving your neighbors wasn't good enough, you had to love your enemies as well?


----------



## Coyote (Oct 23, 2009)

Againsheila said:


> potter 58 said:
> 
> 
> > idiots for certain, but read up on ChristiNAITY, NOT MUCH BETTER, AND IF THE WINGNUTS GET THEIR WAY IT'S COMING BACK, SOONER RATHER THAN LATER
> ...



_I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ..._
-- Mohandas Gandhi


----------



## Againsheila (Oct 23, 2009)

Coyote said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> > potter 58 said:
> ...



The difference is that the man who killed his daughter was following his religion.....ISLAM.  Had a Christian done the deed, he would have been going AGAINST his religion.


----------



## kyzr (Oct 23, 2009)

Coyote said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> > potter 58 said:
> ...



Gandhi is not the point.  The point is Islam, honor killings, and refusal by Islam to actively eliminate terrorism.  Please try to keep up.  Christians don't do honor killings while playing the holier than thou card.


----------



## Kalam (Oct 23, 2009)

Zander said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Zander said:
> ...



I don't know. That's why you don't see me speculating about it.


----------



## judyd (Oct 23, 2009)

On the DC news this morning, they were reporting on a Korean family which performed an exorcism on their teenage daughter which ultimately ended in her death.  

There have been countless other families that refused medical treatment or blood transfusions for their precious children because of their "Christian" religious beliefs.

There are many fanatics in various beliefs, and pseudo "Christians" probably lead the group.  Jim Jones was trying to appear to be adhering to some Biblical beliefs, as did the leader of the Waco commune.  

The Islamics do not have a corner on insanity by any means.


----------



## Againsheila (Oct 23, 2009)

judyd said:


> On the DC news this morning, they were reporting on a Korean family which performed an exorcism on their teenage daughter which ultimately ended in her death.
> 
> There have been countless other families that refused medical treatment or blood transfusions for their precious children because of their "Christian" religious beliefs.
> 
> ...



I think you made my point for me...."pseudo" Christians vs "real" Islamics...do you see the difference now?


----------



## MaggieMae (Oct 23, 2009)

mdn2000 said:


> Charles Stucker said:
> 
> 
> > mdn2000 said:
> ...



Whew. Such an angry diatribe. I think I'm in there somewhere. Oh yeah, what should I do about the killing. Like huh? 

Actually, my point in asking what you would do about it was answered by the question itself. You can't. What on earth makes you think that the U.S. will ever have any significant influence on religious habits practiced for over 2,000 years? That's one. Another is that the majority of modernized Muslims are NOT militant extremists who have cherry-picked the Qu'ran to suit an agenda propagandized by a sect within Islam who are jihadis. Most Muslims are peaceful, and although the way they carry out their religious offerings is weird to the basic American, we're not about to change those either, even if we tried. Most Muslims do not go around killing their offspring just because they have violated some provision of the Qu'ran, just like most Americans don't go around literally acting upon an eye-for-an-eye, although I'm sure there are some who do (or at least try).

I think while it's commendable that you have read a lot about Islam, it's also obvious that you've only been reading one-sided material. Have you read Benazir Bhutto's ''Reconciliation: Islam, Democracy, and the West'' ? She was the last best hope for Pakistan and was assassinated. Was she herself a militant jihadi? Of course not, but she was a Muslim nevertheless. She and her family have spent most of their lives trying to educate their people into the 21st Century. Read some of THOSE books in addition to those you are reading which do nothing but denigrate the religion. They too have their story.

As for your beef with Coyote, I honestly don't think he is being the bigot here. He's saying in fewer words what I just said. You and others here are the bigots by lumping the entire religion into the evil category because of the actions of a few. What if a horrific crime had been committed on your drive through Goodyear AZ perpetrated by a white Christian pedophile against a child? You would be equally upset about the incident, but you wouldn't denounce all of Christianity because of the crimes of Christian pedophiles, would you?


----------



## MaggieMae (Oct 23, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> > the USA *gives* all of you those nice computers you post with
> ...



Yeah!! I'm in the market for a laptop. I didn't know the gubmit would buy me one. Sheeite, now I'm gonna start looking for one in the $3,000 range, not $300.


----------



## MaggieMae (Oct 23, 2009)

mdn2000 said:


> Apostasy is addressed in the Hadith
> 
> Life in the Moslem East addresses the unclean and unholy
> 
> ...




mdn-- Have you ever read The Bible (or an accurate English version for the layperson to better understand)? If not, be prepared to be shocked. It is chock full of violence, proclamations of killings over the most foolish things, and all sorts of bloody and senseless incidents all done in the name of *our* "God." In fact, The Bible can be so controversial (especially these days), that some conservative organization has taken it upon themselves to REWRITE IT, in order to tone it down and remove any "liberal" language. 

conservapedia.com/Conservative_Bible_Project


----------



## MaggieMae (Oct 23, 2009)

mdn2000 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > mdn2000 said:
> ...



So I think we all can agree that was a terrible thing and the father should be prosecuted. Now wouldn't that have made for a pretty boring topic and you wouldn't have gotten all this attention. Instead, being an open forum, you opened a proverbial Pandora's Box, and now you don't like it. Well then I suggest you stay away from passionate subjects such as mass bigotry toward Muslims which has arisen in the wake of 911. You're gonna get a lot of heated opinions, not all agreeing with yours.


----------



## MaggieMae (Oct 23, 2009)

kyzr said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Againsheila said:
> ...



But I think they ARE doing a lot to eliminate terrorism. If you read the back pages there are stories about groups in Saudi Arabia who are re-programming extremists (even some who were released from Gitmo). Indonesia, once the most violent-prone region for terrorism now has almost zero. Germany, Spain, Great Britain have prosecuted thousands of al-Qaeda operatives. The US? Only two. I keep waiting for OUR justice to be played out in open court by those masterminding the attacks of 911.


----------



## MaggieMae (Oct 23, 2009)

Againsheila said:


> judyd said:
> 
> 
> > On the DC news this morning, they were reporting on a Korean family which performed an exorcism on their teenage daughter which ultimately ended in her death.
> ...



No, Shiela, because the extremists are also "pseudo" Islamists. There's an entire documentary titled "Islamism vs. Islam" and if you Google a few reviews, you can get the gist. Or, just read this:

"Islamism" vs. "Islam" and The Meaning of "Jihad" - Reader comments at Daniel Pipes


----------



## MaggieMae (Oct 23, 2009)

*mdn-- Have you ever read The Bible (or an accurate English version for the layperson to better understand)? If not, be prepared to be shocked. It is chock full of violence, proclamations of killings over the most foolish things, and all sorts of bloody and senseless incidents all done in the name of our "God." In fact, The Bible can be so controversial (especially these days), that some conservative organization has taken it upon themselves to REWRITE IT, in order to tone it down and remove any "liberal" language. 

conservapedia.com/Conservative_Bible_Project*

Aha. I guess this is why that page won't load:
Conservapedia's Bible Removes Passages | Politics | Christianity Today

Google Conservative Bible Project, and you'll see a bunch of commentary on it.


----------



## mdn2000 (Oct 23, 2009)

MaggieMae said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> > Charles Stucker said:
> ...




MaggieMae, dont flatter yourself, I was not even aware you were posting in this thread. I only read one sided material, far from it, I own dozens of books on the subject. I know you could not of read all my posts, not as many as Sunni has read so I aint offended when you make mistakes. I never denounced all of Islam, not at all. Go back and quote me if you think a post makes your post, I know what is in my heart and will easily be able to explain any of my posts. A bigot would accuse me of exactly what you just accused me. Sp your lecturing me on something I never even came close to saying.

MaggieMae, your post reads as if you read Coyote's mischaracterization of my post and never read what I said. Its possible Coyote's intent was to mischaraterize my post thus influencing how you think about me. After all your diatribe is completely off the mark.

MaggieMae, I will thank you for the suggestion on the book, I will go out and buy the book, I read everything I can on the subject.

MaggieMae, if you read my post and researched the books I cited you would realize how ignorant and how wrong you about me and the books I referenced. One sided material, that is about the dumbest thing anyone can say about Arabia Deserta, seriously, you made a huge error, you obviously screwed up. 

Arabia Deserta is the best book written on the culture of Islam. Doughty lived with the Arabs, almost died by the Arabs hands, was saved by the Arabs, Doughty's life was literally saved more than once by Arabs. Doughty describes day to day life, the habits and customs in exact detail. What is very clear is that throughout Arabia you cannot stereotype the people, they are so different, from the city dwellers to the Bedouin, from the Shieyk to the thief. I dont have my copy with me otherwise I would give you an example. Doughty lived in Arabia for a couple of years and described many good people and many bad. Anyone who reads this book knows you cannot stereotype all Moslems as killers or fanatics.

Life in the Moslem East, if you read the post you would of noticed you can download it from google books so you do not have to take my word to as what the book describes. Biased, not in the least, Ponafidine lived with Moslems, how could I possibly beleive all moslems are murderers having read this book.

Further if you researched my posts, you would of found my posts where I state not all moslems follow the faith, not all Moslems that are religous follow the faith to the same degree, I have stated this. So the rant you post does not even come close to applying to me. 

MM, if I can shorten you name, had you hit that button to find all posts by me you easily would of found the one where I tell of the Rib Joint in Dana Point Ca on Pacific Coast highway. I have been going to the Rib Joint for over twenty years. The Rib Joint is owned and ran by a Moslem Palestinian, its a family place, his sister works there as well, this is in one of my posts. Obviously the sister does not where the Hijab and is not subservient to men yet she says she is Moslem. Her brother calls himself a Moslem and he does all the cooking, being a BBQ joint he serves PORK RIBS. This man was born in Palestine/Israel and came to the USA for a better life, he loves it here. Imagine a Moslem from Palestine cooking pork ribs in california, I have been eating there over twenty years. So this is the second time I posted this information.

I should not have to explain all of this to you so that I can also qoute four different books on the culture/religion of Islam. 

The Hidath is the word of Mohammed, I did not quote this, merely offered it as relevant reference.

Life in the Moslem East relates a french mans experience in Iraq.

Arabia Deserta, all scholars consider this the bible on Arab culture, this book is more about culture than religion simply because most in Arabia were not devout moslems. 

When folks keep posting "its not in the quran, its not in the quran", they are ignorant and more so behaving like a moron, in light of my disgust at a woman being murdered in a manner that appears to be in accordance to certain customs of Islam I cannot help but call those who are pigheaded morons.

I am glad I called folks morons, it gives me the chance to see who is quick to jump the gun and accuse me of exactly what they have done, stereotype and bigotry. I can see who gets emotional and mischaracterizes others posts. 

MaggeeMae, I had no idea you were posting in this thread hence moron was never directed at you, if you like you can respond to this post and than if a second time you are wrong I can than respond accordingly.


----------



## actsnoblemartin (Oct 23, 2009)

im not saying all muslims are bad, ive had muslims friends. But, to defend these honor killings by pointing out some pseudo christian, who did something bad is ridiculous

its just sad, these liberals have to defend islam, every time it does something bad, as if every religion says to kill your daughter if she becomes to westernized.

Now i know for various reasons, that not all muslims are gonna do honor killings in america, but it is happening and we need to openly and honestly discuss it, and the muslims of this board and of america should honestly condemn it.




judyd said:


> On the DC news this morning, they were reporting on a Korean family which performed an exorcism on their teenage daughter which ultimately ended in her death.
> 
> There have been countless other families that refused medical treatment or blood transfusions for their precious children because of their "Christian" religious beliefs.
> 
> ...


----------



## mdn2000 (Oct 23, 2009)

MaggieMae said:


> *mdn-- Have you ever read The Bible (or an accurate English version for the layperson to better understand)? If not, be prepared to be shocked. It is chock full of violence, proclamations of killings over the most foolish things, and all sorts of bloody and senseless incidents all done in the name of our "God." In fact, The Bible can be so controversial (especially these days), that some conservative organization has taken it upon themselves to REWRITE IT, in order to tone it down and remove any "liberal" language.
> 
> conservapedia.com/Conservative_Bible_Project*
> 
> ...




Boy, you just could not wait to sink your teeth in me, sorry I took a bit of time writing my response to you. Why would you not look at my profile and hit that button that allows you to see all my posts and than go through them. Your rant against me is baseless, seriously, quote my offending remark and I will explain the context because you are completely wrong about what I posted.


----------



## Zander (Oct 23, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Zander said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...



Allow me to help you. There are NONE. Only Muslims use children as bombs.


----------



## Sunni Man (Oct 23, 2009)

actsnoblemartin said:


> im not saying all muslims are bad, ive had muslims friends. But, to defend these honor killings by pointing out some pseudo christian, who did something bad is ridiculous



I wonder how many honor killings there have been by muslims in America in the last year or even last 10 years?


----------



## actsnoblemartin (Oct 23, 2009)

i dont know, probably NOT a lot, but each one is still shocking.

whats also shocking is in the muslim world the amount of honor killings that go on.

im not trying to be disrespectful, but something is wrong when fathers and even some brothers believe they must kill their own daughter/sister for some silly honor.



Sunni Man said:


> actsnoblemartin said:
> 
> 
> > im not saying all muslims are bad, ive had muslims friends. But, to defend these honor killings by pointing out some pseudo christian, who did something bad is ridiculous
> ...


----------



## judyd (Oct 23, 2009)

actsnoblemartin said:


> im not saying all muslims are bad, ive had muslims friends. But, to defend these honor killings by pointing out some pseudo christian, who did something bad is ridiculous
> 
> its just sad, these liberals have to defend islam, every time it does something bad, as if every religion says to kill your daughter if she becomes to westernized.
> 
> ...



How is pointing out that there are just as many "Christian" deaths due to beliefs, defending Islam?  I am not defending any of them, but I am not going to condemn one group more than the other because of things the fanatics do.  They are all heartbreaking.  Islam are no worse than some of the other "Religous" cults.


----------



## actsnoblemartin (Oct 23, 2009)

Look islam is not the only issue, but it is  the topic of this thread.

sunni, feel free to make a thread about america's other ills

abortion, fornication, homosexuality, divorce

murder rates, suicide


----------



## actsnoblemartin (Oct 23, 2009)

because you feel you must excuse the bad actions of islam by pointing out supposed bad actions of another religion

christiniaty does not say, kill your daughter if she becomes too americanized.

where are their christian in the media quoting the bible, saying jesus said bomb this abortion clinc.

jesus never said that, nor did he say beat gays, or women or have multipe wives so im sorry but i think your wrong

I never called islam a cult, so thats on you



judyd said:


> actsnoblemartin said:
> 
> 
> > im not saying all muslims are bad, ive had muslims friends. But, to defend these honor killings by pointing out some pseudo christian, who did something bad is ridiculous
> ...


----------



## mdn2000 (Oct 23, 2009)

actsnoblemartin said:


> Look islam is not the only issue, but it is  the topic of this thread.
> 
> sunni, feel free to make a thread about america's other ills
> 
> ...



Sorry to correct you but dont you mean, "feel free to make a thread about americs's other ill, liberalism".


----------



## Sunni Man (Oct 23, 2009)

Point #1) There are said to be around 7 milliom muslims in the U.S.

So one or two alleged honor killings per year is hardly an epidemic or a trend.

 (and no, I am not sticking up for honor killings)

Point #2) Whan a crime is committed here in America. The criminals religion is only listed in the news if the person is a muslim.

I have yet to see a headline that reads, "Catholic man shoots at police" or Baptist man robs bank".

Point #3) The majority of Americans claim their religion to be Christianity. 

So in essense, tens of thousands of murders, rapes, kidnappings, robberies, and other crimes, are comitted by christians every year in America..


----------



## actsnoblemartin (Oct 23, 2009)

no offense taken, because you would be right



mdn2000 said:


> actsnoblemartin said:
> 
> 
> > Look islam is not the only issue, but it is  the topic of this thread.
> ...


----------



## actsnoblemartin (Oct 23, 2009)

some excellent points here



Sunni Man said:


> Point #1) There are said to be around 7 milliom muslims in the U.S.
> 
> So one or two alleged honor killings per year is hardly an epidemic or a trend.
> 
> ...


----------



## actsnoblemartin (Oct 23, 2009)

Your a good man Sunni.



Sunni Man said:


> Point #1) There are said to be around 7 milliom muslims in the U.S.
> 
> So one or two alleged honor killings per year is hardly an epidemic or a trend.
> 
> ...


----------



## Old Rocks (Oct 23, 2009)

*This is the trail of death of children left by just one small group of Christian Fundementalists in Oregon. It is the children that always suffer for the fundementalist religious idiocy of any religion.*


Death of newborn sparks another Followers of Christ case

CLACKAMAS COUNTY  KATU confirmed Tuesday that detectives are investigating the death of an infant born over the weekend in Clackamas County.

It has also been confirmed that the childs family is a member of the Followers of Christ Church in Oregon City. There have been no charges filed against the family, as the medical examiner works to determine the cause of death.
[...]

Some members of the Followers of Christ Church in Oregon City favor faith healing over modern medicine.

In a separate case, Carl Worthington, a member of the church, was convicted of criminal mistreatment on July 23 in the death of his daughter, 15-month-old Ava, who died of what the medical examiner called a treatable condition. Carl Worthington was sentenced to 60 days and was released last week.

Meanwhile, Avas grandparents Jeff and Marci Beagley are scheduled to go on trial in January in the 2008 death of their teenage son Neil. Dr. Cliff Nelson, with the State Medical Examiners office, said their 16-year-old could have survived with medical treatment.

A KATU investigation in the late 1990s, showed that at least two dozen children buried at a Clackamas County cemetery died from treatable causes but doctors were never called.


----------



## jeffrockit (Oct 23, 2009)

potter 58 said:


> AH COME ON jEFF, THE HOLY ROLLERS BELIEVE IN FAITH AND HAVE BEEN IN COURT NUMEROUS TIMES TO PREVENT THEIR KIDS LIFE SAVING TREATMENTS, TRY ANFD KEEP UP



Does not sound like honor killings to me. I believe you are the one that needs to try and keep up. We were discussing a specific murder and all you can come back with is "but the holy rollers...."


----------



## Kalam (Oct 23, 2009)

mdn2000 said:


> What is in the Koran is passages dealing with the unclean, which this killing would fall under, you know why the father used his car, because in Islam the holy do not touch the filthy unholy which in the eyes of the father is what this girl became.


The disbelievers and idolaters are unclean in belief and action, yes. So are those who attempt to force their beliefs onto others:

_And if thy Lord had pleased, all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them. Wilt thou then force men till they are believers? And it is not for any soul to believe except by Allahs permission. And he casts uncleanness on those who will not understand. _- 10:99-100​
Refusing to touch disbelievers because their beliefs are unclean is silly; only Shi'ah Muslims think that disbelievers are _najis _(ritually impure) by their very nature.



mdn2000 said:


> The clean and the unclean, the holy and the unholy, according to the Koran the whole world is thus divided, unbelievers, christians, jews are unclean, unholy. Touching the unholy renders a Moslem impure. Hence the father ran his daughter over with a car.


Have you read it? 

_O mankind, surely We have created you from a male and a female, and made you tribes and families that you may know each other. Surely the noblest of you with Allah is the most dutiful of you. Surely Allah is Knowing, Aware._ - 49:13

_Allah forbids you not respecting those who fight you not for religion, nor drive you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly. Surely Allah loves the doers of justice._ - 60:8​


mdn2000 said:


> Hell, if you shake hands with a devout Moslem his lips will be moving as the Moslem shakes a non-moslems hand, the devout Moslem is citing the prayer of purification.


Do you make this up as you go along? There is no "prayer of purification." Ablution, wudu, requires bathing oneself with water and the only things that may be recited are the bismillah and the shahada. 



mdn2000 said:


> So why have the "islamic experts" not pointed out where Mohammed explicitly speaks of Apotasy,



_Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: A Bedouin gave the Pledge of allegiance to Allah's Apostle for Islam and the Bedouin got a fever where upon he said to the Prophet "Cancel my Pledge." But the Prophet refused. He came to him (again) saying, "Cancel my Pledge.' But the Prophet refused. Then (the Bedouin) left (Medina). Allah's Apostle said: "Medina is like a pair of bellows: It expels its impurities and brightens and clears its good."  _

- Sahih Bukhari, Ahkaam (Judgment), no. 316​
The same account is related in numbers 318 and 323 of that book, as well as no. 424 of book 92 ("Holding Fast to the Qur'an and Sunnah.")



mdn2000 said:


> simple, those posting know very little of Islam.


----------



## Kalam (Oct 23, 2009)

Againsheila said:


> The difference is that the man who killed his daughter was following his religion



Did you have a particular passage of scripture in mind? I'm very interested in seeing the requirement that I kill whoever fails to uphold the values of my culture.


----------



## Kalam (Oct 23, 2009)

mdn2000 said:


> 'Umdat al-Salik o8.1-2



_Reliance of the Traveler_ is not a hadith collection; it's a book on Shafi'i jurisprudence. Try again.


----------



## Kalam (Oct 23, 2009)

GHook93 said:


> Kalam,
> 
> Not surprising to see you come in and basically try to ignore the fact that this was an Islamofacist motivated killing!



My first post in this thread was a request that the perpetrator be deprived of the blessings of Allah (SWT) and a scriptural passage condemning him to hell. I then began defending my religion, as I am apt to do when it's being attacked.


----------



## Si modo (Oct 23, 2009)

Coyote said:


> Si modo said:
> 
> 
> > As I said, I accept that you are in denial that Arabs are known for their honor killings.  Maybe if more Arabs who oppose that speak out about it rather than giving tacit approval through deflection and marginalization, that would change.
> ...


You know shit about what I care about.  Your ignorant assumptions are without foundation.  The subject of THIS thread is an Arab freak who committed egregious violence against his kid.


----------



## Kalam (Oct 23, 2009)

GHook93 said:


> She ran away because she feared for her life! Close to being another honor killing in America!



Poor example. Rifqa Bary is a fraud who has brought unnecessary hardship on her family by lying about them. What's worse, she and her attention whore of a pastor have drawn attention away from women who really _do_ face death for converting.


----------



## Kalam (Oct 24, 2009)

Zander said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Zander said:
> ...


Hey, you may be correct. Christians have the decency to provide the children they enlist with guns before making them face the enemy. Or, in the case of female children, they kindly allow them to stay behind and work as sex slaves.

http://www.un.org/events/tenstories/06/story.asp?storyID=100



> _The most disturbing aspect of this humanitarian crisis is the fact that this is a war fought by children on children - minors make up almost 90% of the LRAs soldiers. Some recruits are as young as eight and are inducted through raids on villages. They are brutalized and forced to commit atrocities on fellow abductees and even siblings. Those who attempt to escape are killed. For those living in a state of constant fear, violence becomes a way of life and the psychological trauma is incalculable.
> 
> ...
> 
> Since the rebellion began in the 1980s, some 30,000 children have been abducted to work as child soldiers and porters, or to serve as wives of rebels and bear their children. These numbers have soared, with 10,000 children abducted in the past 18 months alone._




They are not people who simply happen to be Christians, they're fanatically committed to their religion.

Uganda's Christian Rebels Revive War in North - The New York Times
IRIN | In-depth | Living with the LRA: The Juba Peace Initiative | UGANDA-SUDAN: A leadership based on claims of divine revelations
DR Congo: LRA Slaughters 620 in âChristmas Massacresâ | Human Rights Watch

Do you really want to play this game? What is it that you think you'll accomplish?


----------



## Nunz (Oct 24, 2009)

rdean said:


> *Liberals?**  Sorry butthead.  It's the conservatives.  *
> 
> *Islamic conservatives are just as bad as our own.* Look at *Fred Phelps*.  Look at Allen Keyes.





GHook93 said:


> *Not sure who Phelps is...*





 Fred Phelps is the founder of the Westboro Baptist Church, odds are that most here know them as the "God Hates Fags" people, the same ones who've been featured on TV (as of late) protesting military funerals. 

This must be the Fred Phelps that rdean is talking about.

 The same *Fred Phelps* that founded the Phelps Chartered law firm, was a *civil rights attorney* in the 60's, *civil rights activist*, and ran for office (5 times) as a *Democrat*!

"_*Phelps has run in various Kansas Democratic Party primaries five times, but has never won. These included races for governor in 1990, 1994, and 1998, receiving about 15 percent of the vote in 1998. In the 1992 Democratic Party primary for U.S. Senate, Phelps received 31 percent of the vote. Phelps ran for mayor of Topeka in 1993 and 1997.*_"


 He was, and continues to be, a registered Democrat.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 24, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> > The difference is that the man who killed his daughter was following his religion
> ...


Islamic guidance comes from more than the Quran.
Im sure if you looked you could find it , then say it is not in harmony with  the Quran.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 24, 2009)

9:28. O you who believe (in Allâh's Oneness and in His Messenger (Muhammad SAW)! Verily, the Mushrikûn (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allâh, and in the Message of Muhammad SAW) are Najasun (impure)[]. So let them not come near Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (at Makkah) after this year, and if you fear poverty, Allâh will enrich you if He will, out of His Bounty. Surely, Allâh is All-Knowing, All-Wise.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 24, 2009)

Kalam said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam,
> ...



Your religion is being attacked, it is being explored.
Who knows, you make get some "reverts".


----------



## Si modo (Oct 24, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Zander said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...




So predictable.  Talk about Muslims strapping bombs to their kids, and this is all you can say without some pathetic deflection to a different subject?  Muslims are the only ones who strap bombs to their kids and blow them up TO blow others up.

How fucking pathetic your continued deflection is.

Be a man; face the music.


----------



## Sunni Man (Oct 24, 2009)

Si modo do you have any evidence of parents strapping bombs to children?


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 24, 2009)

http://israelsmessiah.com/terrorism/teaching_hatred.htm


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 24, 2009)

Is it Halloween or is it teaching hate?


----------



## Old Rocks (Oct 24, 2009)

jeffrockit said:


> potter 58 said:
> 
> 
> > AH COME ON jEFF, THE HOLY ROLLERS BELIEVE IN FAITH AND HAVE BEEN IN COURT NUMEROUS TIMES TO PREVENT THEIR KIDS LIFE SAVING TREATMENTS, TRY ANFD KEEP UP
> ...



The result is the same, dead children, for the same reason, a fundementalist view of religion.


----------



## Sunni Man (Oct 24, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Is it Halloween or is it teaching hate?



Dressing kids up is a whole lot different than blowing them up.

Heck, we dress kids up in all kinds of costumes for Halloween.

People in this thread are saying that people were strapping bombs on children and blowing them up.

So where is a news link showing this to be a fact?


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 24, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Is it Halloween or is it teaching hate?
> ...


Ya got to start somewhere.


----------



## Againsheila (Oct 24, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Point #1) There are said to be around 7 milliom muslims in the U.S.
> 
> So one or two alleged honor killings per year is hardly an epidemic or a trend.
> 
> ...



Point 4.....honor killings by muslims is them following their religion, Christians, committing any crime is them going AGAINST their religion...why is it you don't get that?


----------



## Againsheila (Oct 24, 2009)

Old Rocks said:


> jeffrockit said:
> 
> 
> > potter 58 said:
> ...



No, the result is not the same.  Someone that doesn't believe in invasive treatment for a sick child may be letting the child die NATURALLY as they would if modern medicine wasn't around.  I'm not condoning it but I am pointing out that LETTING a child die naturally is not the same as KILLING a child because you don't like their behavior.


----------



## Againsheila (Oct 24, 2009)

Kalam said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam,
> ...



Again, the difference between Christianity and Islam is glaring....

I pray for your soul, I don't condemn you to hell nor do I want you to go there just because you have some ill conceived belief in a violent faith.


----------



## GHook93 (Oct 24, 2009)

Kalam said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam,
> ...



If your religion is what you say it is, then you need to start preaching it to Islamofacists (like Sunni) and not to non-believers who think your religion blows (all non-Muslims)!


----------



## Sunni Man (Oct 24, 2009)

GHook93 said:


> If your religion is what you say it is, then you need to start preaching it to Islamofacists (like Sunni)



What exactly in your opinion makes me a so called Islamofascist in your eyes GHook?


----------



## judyd (Oct 24, 2009)

I am a Bible-believing Christian and the Bible teaches us to love our "enemies".  I don't believe we should wish harm on any sect.   We are commanded to pray for them, and the Islamics definitely need our prayers.


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## Coyote (Oct 24, 2009)

Againsheila said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Againsheila said:
> ...



Not really, though like all the Abrahamic religions and Hinduism (another religion with a high rate of "honor" killing in it's culture) - there is the usual double standard when it comes to chastity.

"In Islam, there is no place for unjustifiable killing. Even in case of capital punishment, only the government can apply the law through the judicial procedures. No one has the authority to execute the law other than the officers who are in charge. '

Or check out:
Honor Killings


Keep in mind, Christians and other minority sects in those same regions practice and condone honor killing.  So while (like Islam) it is not explicit in the religion, the higher bar all those religions have for female conduct encourages it.

Of course...it sure is much easier to just blame "Islam" isn't it?


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## Coyote (Oct 24, 2009)

kyzr said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Againsheila said:
> ...



Terrorism isn't the point.

The topic is "honor killings" and the point is the refusal by such as you to recognize that this type of condoned violence towards women occurs in many cultures and religions around the world. 

The only "holier than thou card" I'm seeing...is yours.


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## Coyote (Oct 24, 2009)

Againsheila said:


> judyd said:
> 
> 
> > On the DC news this morning, they were reporting on a Korean family which performed an exorcism on their teenage daughter which ultimately ended in her death.
> ...




What makes *you think *that you *know the difference*?


----------



## Coyote (Oct 24, 2009)

Againsheila said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Point #1) There are said to be around 7 milliom muslims in the U.S.
> ...



Maybe because it isn't exactly true.

Ghandi's quote makes a good point: any religion can be twisted to suit cultural agendas.  Texts can be cherry picked to find the right quotes to justify war and killing, and that includes Christianity.  It happens all the time.

You can't sit there and proclaim "oh, but that's not a real Christian" while ignorantly pointing out that the other is "real Islam".  It's ALL real baby.  Because it's there and *every one of those people believes they are following the words of their prophets to the letter.*

Religions have a dark side and a light side to them and since no one is alive who knew their founders you can't possibly say one is the "real" version and the other not.  That's why wars are still fought over dogma.


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## Coyote (Oct 24, 2009)

Si modo said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Si modo said:
> ...



The subject of this thread is also about honor killings.  The fact that you continuously seem to want to restrict the topic to "Arab freaks" when it's a cultural abboration world wide, makes little sense if you really cared about the dead girls.


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## Kalam (Oct 24, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Againsheila said:
> ...



Did you have a particular passage of scripture in mind? I'm very interested in seeing the requirement that I kill whoever fails to uphold the values of my culture.


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## Kalam (Oct 24, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> 9:28. O you who believe (in Allâh's Oneness and in His Messenger (Muhammad SAW)! Verily, the Mushrikûn (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allâh, and in the Message of Muhammad SAW) are Najasun (impure)[]. So let them not come near Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (at Makkah) after this year, and if you fear poverty, Allâh will enrich you if He will, out of His Bounty. Surely, Allâh is All-Knowing, All-Wise.



The reference is mostly to those idolaters who defiled the Ka'bah by using it to house their satanic rituals. Idolatry is essentially unclean and has no place in the Ka'bah - idolators are not essentially unclean, but they become defiled when they engage in acts of idolatry. 

_O you who believe, intoxicants and games of chance and (sacrificing to) stones set up and (dividing by) arrows are only an uncleanness, the devils work; so shun it that you may succeed. _- 5:90​
None of the four Sunni madhhabs require ablution for coming into contact with kafiruun and mushrikuun.


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## Kalam (Oct 25, 2009)

Againsheila said:


> Again, the difference between Christianity and Islam is glaring....
> 
> I pray for your soul, I don't condemn you to hell nor do I want you to go there just because you have some ill conceived belief in a violent faith.



I'm awaiting your response to my question. I'm sure you won't disappoint me.


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## Kalam (Oct 25, 2009)

Si modo said:


> So predictable.  Talk about Muslims strapping bombs to their kids, and this is all you can say without some pathetic deflection to a different subject?  Muslims are the only ones who strap bombs to their kids and blow them up TO blow others up.
> 
> How fucking pathetic your continued deflection is.
> 
> Be a man; face the music.


It amuses me to see you react like this when I dare criticize members of a religion that you approve of. If a person criticizes Muslims for causing the deaths of children as if this is some religiously-sanctioned phenomenon endemic to Islam, I will do what I can to shatter their misconceptions. While I'm sure you'd like to see me join in the hypocritical criticism of my religion and its adherents, my duty is to defend those things. I don't have a guilty conscience as far as addressing problems within Islam is concerned, SM; I don't feel the need to prove myself to you or any other poster here. Wa 'alaykum as-salaam.


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## Kalam (Oct 25, 2009)

GHook93 said:


> If your religion is what you say it is, then you need to start preaching it to Islamofacists (like Sunni) and not to non-believers who think your religion blows (all non-Muslims)!



I don't preach. I wade through and respond to the bullshit flung at Islam by those "who think [my] religion blows." People like the posters in this thread provide support for "Islamofascists" by claiming that their violent interpretation of Islam is correct, and have the nerve to simultaneously chastise me and others for not doing enough to stop them. SM is not an "Islamofascist."


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## Si modo (Oct 25, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Si modo said:
> 
> 
> > So predictable.  Talk about Muslims strapping bombs to their kids, and this is all you can say without some pathetic deflection to a different subject?  Muslims are the only ones who strap bombs to their kids and blow them up TO blow others up.
> ...


It's sad that despite the logical fallacies of deflection and _tu quoque_, you still use them.

You still defend logical fallacies.

The subject of the thread is a MUSLIM freak who comitted egregious violence against his own child.





Those who do not use logic are pathetic.

Those who cannot face the music of that and who cannot face honest criticism of their religion are pussies.  You are a coward on two fronts.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 25, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > 9:28. O you who believe (in Allâh's Oneness and in His Messenger (Muhammad SAW)! Verily, the Mushrikûn (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allâh, and in the Message of Muhammad SAW) are Najasun (impure)[]. So let them not come near Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (at Makkah) after this year, and if you fear poverty, Allâh will enrich you if He will, out of His Bounty. Surely, Allâh is All-Knowing, All-Wise.
> ...


----------



## RadiomanATL (Oct 25, 2009)




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## Coyote (Oct 25, 2009)

Si modo said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Si modo said:
> ...



The subject is also honor killings.  All those who condone or act in that matter are freaks to western culture.  Your pathetic attempt to constrain this topic to Islam and ignore the honor killing aspect seems to say one thing - you hate Muslims and have no interest in the abuse of women if it does not involve Muslims nor do you have any interest in understanding Islam beyond the talking points of hate.  Any attempt to put this problem into context by addressing other aspects of the religion that do not condone this, by talking about culture or by talking about how this is a serious problem in many cultures is met by an absolute refusal to discuss.

The sad thing is, this is the sort of ignorant hysteria that led to the relatively inocous imprisoning of Japanese Americans in WW2 and the far more horrific programs against Jews under Hitler.  The difference is one of degree and implimentation, but there is little difference in the sentiments driving it.




> Those who do not use logic are pathetic.



Yes.  They are.  Perhaps you can start using it?



> Those who cannot face the music of that and who cannot face honest criticism of their religion are pussies.  You are a coward on two fronts.



Honest criticism is there, and open to discussion - but yours is far from honest when it stems from the certainty of ignorance.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 25, 2009)

Coyote said:


> Honor killing has  nothing to do with Islam.  The Quran does not condone honor killings and honor killings


There is more to Islam  than the Quran.
Islam's  "honor" has been defended with murder since early on.

1. March 624: Al-Nadr bin al-Harith

Before Muhammad&#8217;s Hijrah (Emigration from Mecca to Medina in 622), he used to sit in the assembly and invite the Meccans to Allah, citing the Quran and warning them of God&#8217;s punishment for mocking his prophets. Al-Nadr would then follow him and speak about heroes and kings of Persia, saying, "By God, Muhammad cannot tell a better story than I, and his talk is only of old fables which he has copied as I have." Al-Nadr is referring to legends and opaque histories about Arabs of long ago and possibly to Bible stories about such figures as Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus, which Muhammad told, but according to his own inaccurate versions. On other days al-Nadr would interrupt Muhammad until the prophet silenced him. In reply to al-Nadir&#8217;s harassment, it is possible (scholars sometimes have difficulties matching up Quranic verses with historical events) that Allah sent down these verses to Muhammad concerning him or certainly other mockers in Mecca, according to the account of Ibn Abbas, Muhammad&#8217;s cousin, who is considered a reliable transmitter of traditions:

25:6 Say [Prophet], "It was sent down by Him who knows the secrets of the heavens and earth. He is all forgiving and merciful." (MAS Abdel Haleem, The Qur&#8217;an, Oxford UP, 2004)

83:13 ... [W]hen Our revelations are recited to him, he says, "Ancient fables!" 14 No indeed! Their hearts are encrusted with what they have done. 15 No indeed! On that day they will be screened off from their Lord, 16 they will burn in Hell, 17 and they will be told, "This is what you call a lie." (Haleem)

Muhammad did not take revenge on him&#8212;not yet&#8212;even though the verses in Sura 83 promise a dismal eternal future for mockers. Muhammad&#8217;s revenge was not long coming. It was al-Nadir&#8217;s bad fortune to join Mecca&#8217;s army, riding north to protect their caravan, which Muhammad attacked at the Battle of Badr in AD 624. The story-telling polytheist was captured, and on Muhammad&#8217;s return journey back to Medina, Ali, Muhammad&#8217;s son-in-law, at Muhammad&#8217;s order, beheaded him, instead of getting some possible ransom money. He was one of two prisoners who were executed and not allowed to be ransomed by their clans&#8212;all because they wrote poems and told stories critiquing Muhammad.

Source: Ibn Ishaq, The Life of Muhammad, trans. A. Guillaume, (Oxford UP, 1955, 2004), pp. 136 (Arabic pages 191-92); 163 / 236; 181 / 262; 308 / 458. Reputable historians today consider Ibn Ishaq to be a good source of early Islam, though they may disagree on his chronology and miraculous elements.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 25, 2009)

Coyote said:


> Honor killing has  nothing to do with Islam.  The Quran does not condone honor killings and honor killings


There is more to Islam  than the Quran.
Islam's  "honor" has been defended with murder since early on.
2. March 624: Uqba bin Abu Muayt

A similar story as that of al-Nadir can be told about Uqba. He too harassed and mocked Muhammad in Mecca and wrote derogatory verses about him. He too was captured during the Battle of Badr, and Muhammad ordered him to be executed. "But who will look after my children, O Muhammad?" Uqba cried with anguish. "Hell," retorted the prophet coldly. Then the sword of one of his followers cut through Uqba&#8217;s neck.

Source: Bukhari, vol. 4, no. 2934; Muslim, vol. 3, nos. 4422, 4424; Ibn Ishaq, p. 308 / 458. Bukhari and Muslim are reliable collectors and editors of the hadith (words and deeds of Muhammad outside of the Quran). These three passages from the hadith depict Muhammad calling on Allah for revenge on this poet.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 25, 2009)

Coyote said:


> Honor killing has  nothing to do with Islam.  The Quran does not condone honor killings and honor killings


There is more to Islam  than the Quran.
Islam's  "honor" has been defended with murder since early on.

3. March 624: Asma bint Marwan

Asma was a poetess who belonged to a tribe of Medinan pagans, and whose husband was named Yazid b. Zayd. She composed a poem blaming the Medinan pagans for obeying a stranger (Muhammad) and for not taking the initiative to attack him by surprise. When the Allah-inspired prophet heard what she had said, he asked, "Who will rid me of Marwan&#8217;s daughter?" A member of her husband&#8217;s tribe volunteered and crept into her house that night. She had five children, and the youngest was sleeping at her breast. The assassin gently removed the child, drew his sword, and plunged it into her, killing her in her sleep.

The following morning, the assassin defied anyone to take revenge. No one took him up on his challenge, not even her husband. In fact, Islam became powerful among his tribe. Previously, some members who had kept their conversion secret now became Muslims openly, "because they saw the power of Islam," conjectures Ibn Ishaq.

Source: Ibn Ishaq, pp. 675-76 / 995-96.


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## Kalam (Oct 25, 2009)

Si modo said:


> It's sad that despite the logical fallacies of deflection and _tu quoque_, you still use them.
> 
> You still defend logical fallacies.


I'm not entirely sure what you want me to do when it comes to addressing the issue of violence within Islam, nor do I really care. I have condemned it here and worked on my own to suppress it. What's interesting is that you accuse me of deflection when I've already addressed the issue at hand and it's now you who is attempting to deflect criticism of Christians. If you have a specific criticism of Islam or Muslims that you'd like for 5me to address directly, please feel free to post it here. 



Si modo said:


> The subject of the thread is a MUSLIM freak who comitted egregious violence against his own child.


The man's religion wasn't actually specified, and the crime, according to the OP's own article, was culturally motivated. A contingent of posters here -- and that seemingly includes you -- will waste no opportunity to criticize Islam and Muslims... even if that criticism is irrelevant to what actually took place.



Si modo said:


> Those who do not use logic are pathetic.


You're a paragon of rationality, I'm sure. Riddle me this, Aristotle: when did it become logical to equate a religion to one of the thousands of cultures of its adherents?



Si modo said:


> Those who cannot face the music of that and who cannot face honest criticism of their religion are pussies.


This is what I spend most of my time here doing. Well, most of the criticism isn't "honest," but you get the idea. 



Si modo said:


> You are a coward on two fronts.


I'm willing to answer any questions about Islam or Muslims you may have, SM. What I'm not willing to do is become a Muslim who posts falsehoods about his own religion for the sake of ingratiating himself with prejudiced non-Muslims.


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## Si modo (Oct 25, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Si modo said:
> 
> 
> > It's sad that despite the logical fallacies of deflection and _tu quoque_, you still use them.
> ...



I've seen no condemnation of this act at all from you.  I've seen condenmation of off-topic acts by others that you (and others) illogically bring up, but you cannot condemn this.

It's amazing.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 25, 2009)

Kalam said:


> I'm willing to answer any questions about Islam or Muslims you may have,.



Is your interpretation of  the Quran widely held or considered traditional?


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## Kalam (Oct 25, 2009)

You're making this too easy. For your sake, we will ignore the fact that Ibn Ishaq's accounts are unreliable and assume for the purposes of this discussion that the passages you posted are 100% accurate. You are welcome. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> Al-Nadr... join[ed] Meccas army, riding north to protect their caravan, which Muhammad attacked at the Battle of Badr in AD 624.


Al-Nadr joined the army of the idolatrous oppressors. He was an enemy combatant; his death was entirely justified. Notice that Muhammad (SAWS) did not kill him when he mocked Islam, he was killed after he took up arms with the enemies of Islam.



Mr.Fitnah said:


> A similar story as that of al-Nadir can be told about Uqba. He too harassed and mocked Muhammad in Mecca and wrote derogatory verses about him. He too was captured during the Battle of Badr,


You post an account of slaying an enemy combatant again as if this is murder. If you willingly take up arms with those whose unambiguous intention is to destroy Islam, your life is forfeit to the Muslims you were willing to kill.



Mr.Fitnah said:


> Asma was a poetess who belonged to a tribe of Medinan pagans, and whose husband was named Yazid b. Zayd. She composed a poem blaming the Medinan pagans for obeying a stranger (Muhammad) and *for not taking the initiative to attack him by surprise.*


You post an account of a woman who openly encouraged the assassination of Muhammad (SAWS). In addition to this being a crime in and of itself, her call for assassination took place at a time when Islam was a fledgling religion that faced the threat of destruction. Try to find a reliable account of somebody being assassinated per Muhammad's (SAWS) orders for doing nothing more than criticizing or mocking Islam. The punishment for those individuals is not earthly.


_Allah will pay them back their mockery, and He leaves them alone in their inordinacy, blindly wandering on._ - 2:15

_The life of this world is made to seem fair to those who disbelieve, and they mock those who believe. And those who keep their duty will be above them on the day of Resurrection. And Allah gives to whom He pleases without measure._ - 2:212

_And indeed He has revealed to you in the Book that when you hear Allahs messages disbelieved in and mocked at, sit not with them until they enter into some other discourse, for then indeed you would be like them. Surely Allah will gather together the hypocrites and the disbelievers all in hell -- those who wait for you. Then if you have a victory from Allah they say: Were we not with you? And if there is a chance for the disbelievers, they say: Did we not prevail over you and defend you from the believers? So Allah will judge between you on the day of Resurrection. And Allah will by no means give the disbelievers a way against the believers._ - 4:140-141​


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## Kalam (Oct 25, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > I'm willing to answer any questions about Islam or Muslims you may have,.
> ...


I will respond as much as possible using clear passages which require no interpretation, or I will substantiate my interpretation with other Qur'anic passages, relevant and legitimate ahadith, or the opinions of trustworthy 'ulama.


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## Si modo (Oct 25, 2009)

Can Kalem condemn the subject act or not?

Tune in next century to find out.


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## Kalam (Oct 25, 2009)

Si modo said:


> I've seen no condemnation of this act at all from you.  I've seen condemation of off-topic acts by others from you, but you cannot condemn this.
> 
> It's amazing.



Then I will do so again for your sake.



Kalam said:


> La'anatullah alayhi.
> 
> _And whoever kills a believer intentionally, his punishment is hell, abiding therein; and Allah is wroth with him and He has cursed him and prepared for him a grievous chastisement._ - 4:93​



La'anatullah alayhi - May deprivation of God's (SWT) blessings be upon him. Punish him here, and let him be punished in hell for what he has done unless he repents and makes amends.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 25, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...


Im not sure anyone has the stomach for watching you torture the Quran  any further.
You failure to accept  the established fact of nasik leads you to hold heretical views of Islam.

Why not just cut to the chase and use what  the link in your sig leads  one to believe.

By the end of the ninth century, Mu'tazilis were subjected to vehement attacks from the right (the traditionalists) and from the left (the atheists, deists, philosophers, non-Muslim thinkers, etc.).


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## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 25, 2009)

Kalam said:


> You're making this too easy. For your sake, we will ignore the fact that Ibn Ishaq's accounts are unreliable and assume for the purposes of this discussion that the passages you posted are 100% accurate. You are welcome.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Only In Islam and crime syndicates are  those who commit  crimes against humanity the good guys, and those who object and try to stop them the enemy combatants


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## Kalam (Oct 25, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Im not sure anyone has the stomach for watching you torture the Quran  any further.


You are not qualified to pass judgment on what is or isn't a legitimate interpretation of the Qur'an. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> You failure to accept  the established fact of nasik leads you to hold heretical views of Islam.



The interpretation of naskh favored by you has been conclusively refuted... again.


Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...


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## Kalam (Oct 25, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Only In Islam and crime syndicates are  those who commit  crimes against humanity the good guys, and those who object and try to stop them the enemy combatants



I accept that you are unable to find an example of Muhammad (SAW) ordering the execution of anyone who did not take up arms against Islam or openly threaten it with destruction. Thank you for your concession; this has been a productive discussion.


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## Si modo (Oct 25, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Si modo said:
> 
> 
> > I've seen no condemnation of this act at all from you.  I've seen condemation of off-topic acts by others from you, but you cannot condemn this.
> ...


Quoting a verse from some book is your idea of condemnation?  This has to do with killing believers.  LMAO!  He didn't kill his daughter, he ran her over trying to kill her.   And, if the daughter was a non-believer it's all OK?  What a pathetic joke you are.  That's no condemnation.  See if *you* can have the courage to condemn this.


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## Kalam (Oct 25, 2009)

Si modo said:


> Quoting a verse from some book is your idea of condemnation?


It may not mean much to you, but a condemnation on religious grounds is very significant to me. Asking that someone be deprived of Allah's (SWT) blessings is not something that I do often or without careful consideration. It's not just some book.



Si modo said:


> LMAO!  And, if the daughter was a non-believer it's all OK?


Of course not. He would deserve punishment here and in the hereafter either way. I'd quote relevant scripture for you, but that doesn't seem to suffice in your mind. 



Si modo said:


> What a joke you are.


I'm sorry you feel that way, but I'm not going to lose sleep over what you think about me.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 25, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Im not sure anyone has the stomach for watching you torture the Quran  any further.
> ...


Well please imam "kalam"
give your tafsir.( heres a real one)
Explain how besiege and  ambush are defensive.
Who pays zakat?
Who preforms as salat.

5. Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islâmic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikûn (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and *besiege* them, and prepare for them each and every *ambush*. But if they repent and perform *As-Salât* (Iqâmat-as-Salât), and give* Zakât*, then leave their way free. Verily, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful


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## Si modo (Oct 25, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Si modo said:
> 
> 
> > Quoting a verse from some book is your idea of condemnation?
> ...


I find those who cannot speak for themselves pathetic indeed.  And the verse you provided addresses killing.

You have condemned nothing and your verse doesn't even apply to this.

You aren't man enough to condemn this.  Of course, given the way your religion treats women in general, that comes as no surprise to me.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 25, 2009)

Si modo said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Si modo said:
> ...


You may find this  entertianing

http://www.usmessageboard.com/religion-and-ethics/81748-islam-forbids.html


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## Sunni Man (Oct 25, 2009)

I condemn the murder of this girl. 

The same as I would any other murder.

Her murder had nothing to do with Islam.


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## Kalam (Oct 25, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Well please imam "kalam"
> *give your tafsir.*
> Explain how besiege and  ambush are defense.
> Who pays zakat?
> Who preforms as salat.


Explain 9:5? Again...? 

Very well. The verse in question applies clearly to the idolaters who were either hostile towards Muslims themselves or supported others in their hostility towards Muslims. This distinction is delineated in other parts of the passage.

_Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you; so fulfil their agreement to the end of their term. Surely Allah loves those who keep their duty._- 9:4​
The idolaters that are to be attacked are contrasted here with those who held to their agreements with the Muslims and did not support any of the Muslims' enemies, implying that the party referred to in 9:5 was guilty of these transgressions. This is confirmed by other verses in the passage.

_How can there be an agreement for the idolaters with Allah and with his Messenger, except those with whom you made an agreement at the Sacred Mosque? So as long as they are true to you, be true to them. Surely Allah loves those who keep their duty._ - 9:7-8​
Muslims are instructed again to respect their agreements with idolaters who have done the same, implying yet again that the guilty party of idolaters failed to do so. This is stated explicitly in 9:10 -

_They respect neither ties of relationship nor covenant, in the case of a believer. And these are they who go beyond the limits._​
All of this is confirmed in the following verses, which make it clear that the idolaters referenced were guilty of a number of things, including breaking oaths, attacking Muslims, and attempting to silence and expel the Messenger (SAWS) of God (SWT).

_And if they break their oaths after their agreement and revile your religion, then fight the leaders of disbelief -- surely their oaths are nothing -- so that they may desist. Will you not fight a people who broke their oaths and aimed at the expulsion of the Messenger, and they attacked you first? Do you fear them? But Allah has more right than you should fear Him, if you are believers._ - 9:12-13​
Therefore, it's plainly obvious that interpreting 9:5 as an open call for the destruction of all Mushrikuun requires ignoring the rest of the Qur'an, including the verses that surround it. That is improper.


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## Si modo (Oct 25, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Si modo said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...


Thanks.  I know.  It's the illogical way most justify their barbarism.  It's a classic 'begging the question' case - quite circular and involves little to no intellect, obvious to even the most casual observer.  Running me over with a car would not be condemnable, for example.


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## mdn2000 (Oct 25, 2009)

Kalam said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> > What is in the Koran is passages dealing with the unclean, which this killing would fall under, you know why the father used his car, because in Islam the holy do not touch the filthy unholy which in the eyes of the father is what this girl became.
> ...



Ah, how can I possibly respond to such a post so articulate and accurate. Its actually real easy, the Koran (intentional use of spelling of 1800's) is written in Arabic. Being written in Arabic there are thousands of translations, which translation one uses is of the utmost importance, not all translations or interpetations are the same. So what the hell is Kalem quoting, the Koran or the Hadith, I actually cannot respond quote for quote, passage for passage without knowing which translation or which book. 

It dont matter though, what I have written is simple fact. 

The Holy and Unholy, the clean and unclean, this point is factual, any translation of the Koran or Hadith, any book on the culture of the Middle East will explain clean and unclean.

For the world of Islam nothing is as unclean as the dead, Moslems do not touch the dead and if they do they must undergo a purification prosess, depending on the sect this can be a ritual that lasts nine days. Touching the unclean is why in the Moslem world someone will be stoned to death, there is no chance of touching the corpse. 

Kalem cannot despute my facts without at first determining which sect said father belongs to, was this man Sunni or Shia, was he Wahabbi Sunni. This is of extreme importance yet kalem has not gone into this detail. Still it does not matter, the clean and unclean is common to all sects. 

Maybe Kalem should explain that the pure and the unpure fall in two catagories thus there are two processes of purification, great and small. 

Touching a corpse, which this man's daughter becomes in the course of murder falls into the catagory of unpure that requires a "great" purification. Depending on the sect of the Islamic religion depends on if the Great Purification is needed. I will not pretend to know the details of the Great Purification but in one sect instead of using water Bull's Urine is used. Is this type of purification still used today, I dont know, did this man read the same book I did and thus beleive if he touched the corpse of the one he murdered and thus would need great purification, its possible, why would not a moslem know more than me, I am still learning. So nobody can dispute that this man deliberatly committed a murder where it was impossible for said man to touch the corpse thus becoming unclean and needing a purification in which Bull's urine is needed.

Need a source, I already gave my sources and they are at this time not in despute. 

Kalem sites a passage or two without being specific as to the translation Kalem chooses to use, kalem demonstrates he knows nothing of purifcation, no bathing in water, sure, that is true, the bath is not water, its Bull Urine, unfortunately one or two books is not sufficient, its possible Camel Urine can be used for purification. Some sects even use Urine to baptize babies. Either way purification is real, there is holy and unholy.

No prayer of purification, Kalem knows a tiny amount if anything about Islam and the culture. 



> The Koran is remarkable for its disconnected, fragmentary form and absence of any system in its composition. It is full of obscure passages giving rise to much discussion among modern commentators. Pierre Ponafidine, Life in the Moslem East. (download the full copy at google books).


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## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 25, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Well please imam "kalam"
> ...



Clearly it also requires ignore the tense
Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islâmic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikûn (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât), and give Zakât, then leave their way free. Verily, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful


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## Coyote (Oct 25, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...



Mr. Fitnah, you take cherry-picked quotes out of context to try to make a point.  Anyone can do that.  I'm sure you've seen people who bash Christianity in the same manner you are bashing Islam, do so with carefully selected quotes and passages that promote or seem to promote violence and intolerance.  Certainly fundamentalist sects have made use of just such cherry picking to justify atrocities.  Kalam is putting those quotes in context yet you claim he is "torturing" the Quran?  Is context irrelevant then?


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## Coyote (Oct 25, 2009)

Si modo said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Si modo said:
> ...



It is sad that you require some sort of "litmus test" as proof of rightful condemnation.


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## Si modo (Oct 25, 2009)

Coyote said:


> Si modo said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...


No litmus test, just an actual condemnation would go toward the poster's cred.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 25, 2009)

Coyote said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...



I cherry pick from the Quran because I only  care about the parts of the Quran that concern me.

The Quran contains little context on its own.
"kalam' post what he wants to people to believe  is contextual , but provides little supporting evidence. IE Tafsir  Hadith  fatwa etc.


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## Coyote (Oct 25, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...



He provides more supporting evidence than either you or mdm do - he provides the historical context of those quotes and that is important in determining what they mean.  All you do is quote texts on Middle Eastern Culture but Islam is not limited to the Middle East nor is it a monolithic religion - it has sects and differences of interpretation.

It is the same with the bible - it's not just the bible, but a host of associated material and history that gives it meaning and context - at least to any thoughtful person.

Your cherry picking is no different than that of fundamentalists and extremists who cherry pick the Quran, or Hadith, or the Bible to justify their narrow view of religion and inhumane acts.  Your view is just as narrow and intolerant as that of extremists.


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## mdn2000 (Oct 25, 2009)

Coyote said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...



Coyote, did you see my post in the Anita Dunn thread, I dont want to accuse Coyote of cherry picking the threads Coyote posts in but in the Anita Dunn thread I pretty muched ripped your comments to threads so let me know if your getting to my post or if your cherry picking.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 25, 2009)

Coyote said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


On matters of Islam  that concern me,  there is no daylight between any major school of Islamic thought and what I post.
Im glad you are able to find some meaning and value in what "kalam " posts.
As for him having supporting evidence ?
None that I find compelling based on my greater body of knowledge.


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## Sunni Man (Oct 25, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> As for him having supporting evidence ?
> None that I find compelling based on *my greater body of knowledge*.



Get a grip Mr Fitnuts

Kalam is far more versed in Islam and supporting text than you by far.

He also is fluent in arabic. So he can real the original works.


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## Kalam (Oct 25, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > As for him having supporting evidence ?
> ...



Thank you, brother. 

Unfortunately I have not yet attained fluency in Arabic, but I'll be able to read the original works with no difficulty soon, in sha' Allah.


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## Againsheila (Oct 25, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Honor killing has  nothing to do with Islam.  The Quran does not condone honor killings and honor killings
> ...



Yeah, convert or die....that pretty much makes conversion easy.


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## Kalam (Oct 25, 2009)

Si modo said:


> I find those who cannot speak for themselves pathetic indeed.


I arrived at a conclusion and condemned the criminal based on the teachings of the religion that has become the subject of this thread. I apologize if that wasn't what you were looking for.



Si modo said:


> And the verse you provided addresses killing.
> 
> You have condemned nothing and your verse doesn't even apply to this.


His intention was to kill and he acted on this intention. I doubt he expected or wanted to be unsuccessful, so he's hardly better than a murderer as far as I'm concerned. 



Si modo said:


> You aren't man enough to condemn this.  Of course, given the way your religion treats women in general, that comes as no surprise to me.


I have condemned it. I haven't changed my mind. What is it that you'd like for me to do?

I'll ignore the potshot at the end of your post.


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## Kalam (Oct 25, 2009)

Againsheila said:


> Yeah, convert or die....that pretty much makes conversion easy.



Still waiting...


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## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 25, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > As for him having supporting evidence ?
> ...


I was referring to my knowledge compared t that of coyotes.
I have never denigrated 'kalam's knowledge,
 I have just offered an alternative interpretation.
One that is widely accepted and is considered mainstream Islam.
I almost habitually only post  the supporting text so much so you ridicule me   by insistently asking if I have any original thoughts.
He is not fluent in arabic


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## mdn2000 (Oct 25, 2009)

> The disbelievers and idolaters are unclean in belief and action, yes. So are those who attempt to force their beliefs onto others:
> 
> And if thy Lord had pleased, all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them. Wilt thou then force men till they are believers? And it is not for any soul to believe except by Allahs permission. And he casts uncleanness on those who will not understand. - 10:99-100
> Refusing to touch disbelievers because their beliefs are unclean is silly; only Shi'ah Muslims think that disbelievers are najis (ritually impure) by their very nature



Kalem, I spoke of apostasy and disbelievers, apostasy is clearly what the daughter is guilty of and this response of your does not apply to apostasy.

Kalem, does not reference the Hadith, as important as the Koran.

Your point about Shi'ah is irrelevant as well, for one you can never stereotype what an entire sect of people think. 

The disbeliever is unclean, sure the beliefs are unclean, but the Moslem considers the entire person as unclean, its not just the beliefs or thoughts that are unclean, the person as a whole is considered unclean. Nice try though.

Did you ignore the post purposely or are you busy researching a response because you are uneducated in regards to the culture of Islam, 

I see you cannot reference the Hadith, any real student of Islam knows the Hadith is as important as the Qur'an. You should be using this as your primary reference in this discussion.


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## Si modo (Oct 25, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Si modo said:
> 
> 
> > I find those who cannot speak for themselves pathetic indeed.
> ...


And that teaching, which you quoted and say applies to you, does NOT condemn killing of a non-believer.

So, one must know if you view this girl as a non-believer or not to know if you actually condemn the egregious act of violence.  I made the question of that condition quite obvious several times, now.

So?


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## Kalam (Oct 25, 2009)

Si modo said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Si modo said:
> ...


No, I don't, nor would it matter to me if she was. Murder is not permissible either way.


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## mdn2000 (Oct 25, 2009)

Si modo said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Si modo said:
> ...



It is obvious Kalem knows a little of Islam but not a lot. The woman is guilty of Apostasy which is much different than simply being a non-believer. Passages and quotes from the Qur'an which deal with the non-believer are secondary to the Hadiths that deal with a  person guilty of Apostasy.

This is a very big error on Kalem's part.

Kalem is either not a student of Islam or Kalem is attempting to hide the truth.


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## Si modo (Oct 25, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Si modo said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...


*Finally.*  Good to know.


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## Coyote (Oct 25, 2009)

mdn2000 said:


> Si modo said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...



Or, maybe you don't know as much as you claim.


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## Coyote (Oct 25, 2009)

mdn2000 said:


> > The disbelievers and idolaters are unclean in belief and action, yes. So are those who attempt to force their beliefs onto others:
> >
> > And if thy Lord had pleased, all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them. Wilt thou then force men till they are believers? And it is not for any soul to believe except by Allah&#8217;s permission. And he casts uncleanness on those who will not understand. - 10:99-100
> > Refusing to touch disbelievers because their beliefs are unclean is silly; only Shi'ah Muslims think that disbelievers are najis (ritually impure) by their very nature
> ...



Aren't you stereotyping what an entire religion thinks?

Also, the Hadiths are huge volumes of material - there are many of them, often contradictory - your average muslim is not likely to be as familiar with them as the Quran.  In fact - I doubt many bother to read them.

By the way...weren't you the fellow whining about "attacking the messanger"....isn't that what you have been doing with Kalam?


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## Kalam (Oct 25, 2009)

mdn2000 said:


> Ah, how can I possibly respond to such a post so articulate and accurate. Its actually real easy, the Koran (intentional use of spelling of 1800's) is written in Arabic. Being written in Arabic there are thousands of translations, which translation one uses is of the utmost importance,


There are not thousands of translations of the Qur'an into English; there are about fifty. The translations that are most frequently relied upon by academics are similar enough that one can assume they're largely reliable, so you don't really have an argument there. 



mdn2000 said:


> not all translations or interpetations are the same. So what the hell is Kalem quoting, the Koran or the Hadith, I actually cannot respond quote for quote, passage for passage without knowing which translation or which book.


If you were at all familiar with the Qur'an or hadith collections, my citations would be clear to you. A Qur'anic passage is cited by giving the number of its surah followed by the number or numbers of whatever ayah or ayaat are cited. I cite ahadith by specifying the name of the collection, the name of the book in which the hadith appears, and the number of the hadith.



mdn2000 said:


> It dont matter though, what I have written is simple fact.


I'm glad that you're self-confident. That can be a good attribute. Unfortunately, you're incorrect in this case. 



mdn2000 said:


> The Holy and Unholy, the clean and unclean, this point is factual, any translation of the Koran or Hadith, any book on the culture of the Middle East will explain clean and unclean.


Persons, practices, and objects may be regarded as "unclean" without being considered ritually impure. The fact is that none of the four major Sunni madhhabs consider disbelievers ritually impure to the extent that ablution is required after coming into contact with one. While I'm sure that your books on the Middle East are interesting reads, knowledge of Islam requires familiarizing oneself with Islamic scripture, jurisprudential resources, and other religious writings. 



mdn2000 said:


> For the world of Islam nothing is as unclean as the dead, Moslems do not touch the dead and if they do they must undergo a purification prosess, depending on the sect this can be a ritual that lasts nine days. Touching the unclean is why in the Moslem world someone will be stoned to death, there is no chance of touching the corpse.


Once again, you're incorrect. Disagreement exists over whether the corpses of Muslims are ritually impure. 

_Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet came across me in one of the streets of Medina and at that time I was Junub. So I slipped away from him and went to take a bath. On my return the Prophet said, "O Abu Huraira! Where have you been?" I replied, "I was Junub, so I disliked to sit in your company." The Prophet said, "Subhan Allah! A believer never becomes impure."_  - Sahih Bukhari, _Ghusl_, no. 281​


mdn2000 said:


> Kalem cannot despute my facts without at first determining which sect said father belongs to, was this man Sunni or Shia, was he Wahabbi Sunni. This is of extreme importance yet kalem has not gone into this detail. Still it does not matter, the clean and unclean is common to all sects.


You're presupposing that this had anything to do with the crime. The vast majority of "honor killings" are carried out in ways that involve physical contact between the murderer and the victim. The victims were probably hit with a car because that was the most convenient way for the would-be murderer to attack them. Moreover, you're incorrect once again about the rules regarding najasa. Rules vary slightly between the Sunni Madhhabs and more significantly between the Ahl as-Sunnah and the Shi'a. 



mdn2000 said:


> Maybe Kalem should explain that the pure and the unpure fall in two catagories thus there are two processes of purification, great and small.


Full ablution (ghusl) is generally required after the following for Sunnis:


Sexual intercourse or any kind of sexual discharge (Sahih Muslim, _Haid_, no. 616 and others)
Reaching puberty - full ablution is required every Friday (Sahih Bukhari, _Characteristics of Prayer_, no. 817)
Dying (Sahih Bukhari, _Janaaiz_)

It's also recommended before formally converting, before performing hajj, and before Eid prayers. Partial ablution (wudu) is required before handling the Qur'an or praying.  



mdn2000 said:


> Touching a corpse, which this man's daughter becomes in the course of murder falls into the catagory of unpure that requires a "great" purification.


Not in any major Sunni school of thought. Only the body itself needs to undergo ghusl.



mdn2000 said:


> Depending on the sect of the Islamic religion depends on if the Great Purification is needed. I will not pretend to know the details of the Great Purification but in one sect instead of using water Bull's Urine is used.


Uh... that's not correct. Ghusl and wudu must be performed using clean water according to all sources. 



mdn2000 said:


> Need a source, I already gave my sources and they are at this time not in despute.


You sources are, for the most part, the travel accounts of Western orientalists. If you're looking for accurate information about Islam, read the scripture itself or consult a knowledgeable 'alim.



mdn2000 said:


> kalem demonstrates he knows nothing of purifcation


You're right; I know nothing about the purification I undergo every day. 



mdn2000 said:


> its Bull Urine, unfortunately one or two books is not sufficient, its possible Camel Urine can be used for purification. Some sects even use Urine to baptize babies. Either way purification is real, there is holy and unholy.


Using "bull urine" in ablutions is un-Islamic. Only clean water may be used; this is not disputed.



mdn2000 said:


> No prayer of purification, Kalem knows a tiny amount if anything about Islam and the culture.


Claiming that you know more about Islam than Muslims while posting the ridiculous nonsense you peddle does not tend to work wonders for your credibility. You do not know more about Islam than I do. Just a word of friendly advice.


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## Coyote (Oct 25, 2009)

Si modo said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Si modo said:
> ...



I'm assuming your religion is Christianity, based on your attitudes.

Does it specifically condemn the killing of a non-believer?  After all, there are cherry picked quotes from the bible instructing believers to do just that.


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## Coyote (Oct 25, 2009)

Si modo said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Si modo said:
> ...



Condemnation by providing a quote that is the basis of the philosophy you live by, is still condemnation.

Apparently it doesn't suit you.  Hence - litmus test.


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## Si modo (Oct 25, 2009)

Coyote said:


> Si modo said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...


Is that the subject of the thread?  No.  Focus.

And read how illogical your _tu quoque_ point is.  Congratulations on joining the irrelevance club.


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## Si modo (Oct 25, 2009)

Coyote said:


> Condemnation by providing a quote that is the basis of the philosophy you live by, is still condemnation.
> 
> Apparently it doesn't suit you.  Hence - litmus test.


If one is going to use 'hence', they really should not use it when presenting a _non sequitur_.  It just makes them look even sillier.


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## Kalam (Oct 25, 2009)

mdn2000 said:


> Kalem, I spoke of apostasy and disbelievers, apostasy is clearly what the daughter is guilty of


Source? That is not what was said in the article. 



mdn2000 said:


> Kalem, does not reference the Hadith, as important as the Koran.


No, they aren't. The Qur'an is the divine word of Allah (SWT) and is accepted by all Muslims. Placing ahadith at the same level of the Qur'an would imply that they're as genuine and reliable as the word of Allah (SWT) - implying that something is equal to Allah (SWT) in any way is a form of _shirk_, a major sin in Islam. Ahadith are not divine and opinions on the reliability of certain hadith collections varies from sect to sect. FWIW, I've referenced a ton of ahadith. You're unaware of this because you have no clue what you're talking about. 



Kalam said:


> The oldest and most respected book is the Qur'an, which contains a multitude of references to events in Muhammad's life. It is the only account that can be considered 100% factual and reliable in Islam, and the only source of guidance that all Muslims share in common.
> 
> Next in supposed reliability for many Muslims are the hadith collections. The Sunni canon consists of Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Sunan Abu Dawud, Sunan al-Tirmidhi, Sunan as-Sughra, and Sunan ibn Maja. Shi'ites generally reject the Sunni canon, and acceptance of other collections among Shi'ites tends to vary from sect to sect. The most prominent sect, the Twelvers, accepts the Kitab al-Kafi, Man la yahduruhu al-Faqih, Tahdhib al-Ahkam, and Al-Istibsar. Even Muslims who believe in one canon of ahadith or another admit that they're non-divine and fallible. After all, in spite of the careful research completed by most compilers, ahadith are based on oral traditions transmitted over multiple centuries and must be tested for accuracy using the Qur'an. As Bernard Lewis wrote, "the collection and scrutiny of Hadiths didn't take place until several generations [after Muhammad's death]... during that period the opportunities and motives for falsification were almost unlimited."
> 
> The biographies are even less reliable. Unlike ahadiths, biographical accounts were based on oral traditions with unknown isnad (chains of transmitters). Because the transmitters of these traditions are not even known, the reliability of these biographies is even more questionable than the reliability of hadith collections and no definitive conclusions should be drawn about the life of Muhammad (SAW) based on biographies alone.





mdn2000 said:


> Your point about Shi'ah is irrelevant as well, for one you can never stereotype what an entire sect of people think.


First of all, that statement was based on a juristic ruling that is adhered to by all Shi'ite Muslims; it wasn't a generalization. Secondly, your arguments are based entirely on the misconceptions of orientalists and blanket generalizations that you make based thereon. I'm beginning to wonder if you're a troll. If so, I congratulate you for having a lively sense of humor, but I'm not interested in wasting my time.



mdn2000 said:


> The disbeliever is unclean, sure the beliefs are unclean, but the Moslem considers the entire person as unclean, its not just the beliefs or thoughts that are unclean, the person as a whole is considered unclean. Nice try though.


Let's make this easy. Cite a work on Sunni fiqh that claims that wudu is compromised by physical contact with a kafir or a mushrik. 



mdn2000 said:


> Did you ignore the post purposely or are you busy researching a response because you are uneducated in regards to the culture of Islam,


I ignored the post initially because it was long, poorly written, and supersaturated with bullshit. I don't know what made me change my mind. 



mdn2000 said:


> I see you cannot reference the Hadith, any real student of Islam knows the Hadith is as important as the Qur'an. You should be using this as your primary reference in this discussion.


I cited Bukhari in my first reponse to you. If you were the least bit acquainted with the Diin al-Islam, you'd know that Sahih Bukhari is a major Sunni hadith collection. And no, as I pointed out earlier, the Qur'an takes precedence over all man-made texts, including ahadith. Belief otherwise constitutes shirk. 

As amusing as it is to see you claim that I don't know anything about the religion I study daily, I pity you for being so delusional. Please do yourself a favor and at least read a wikipedia article or two before you make a fool of yourself again. 

It's "Kal*a*m", by the way.


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## Coyote (Oct 25, 2009)

Si modo said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Si modo said:
> ...



Oh? (raises eyebrow)

Read your link a bit more thoroughly.



> In many cases tu quoque arguments are used in a logically fallacious way, to draw a conclusion which is not supported by the premises of the argument.
> 
> You-too version
> This form of the argument is as follows:
> ...



I am not dismissing P.

Nice try though.


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## Coyote (Oct 25, 2009)

Si modo said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Condemnation by providing a quote that is the basis of the philosophy you live by, is still condemnation.
> ...



You must be related to the Grammar and Spelling Nazis.  In otherwords, they can't address the points so they resort to picking at grammar. 

Congratulations.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 25, 2009)

Kalam said:


> t.
> Explain 9:5? Again...?



9:5 again maybe this time you will answer
Who pays zakat?
Who preforms as salat.

9:5. Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islâmic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikûn (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât), and give Zakât, then leave their way free. Verily, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful
yeah


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## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 25, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Using "bull urine" in ablutions is un-Islamic.. Only clean water may be used; this is not disputed.


What is the meaning of the word "tayammum"


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## Si modo (Oct 25, 2009)

Coyote said:


> Si modo said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


  Pssst.  That wasn't a critique of your grammar.


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## Si modo (Oct 25, 2009)

Coyote said:


> Si modo said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


LMAO!!!!!!  You don't even understand the fallacy you used even when it's explained to you.


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## Coyote (Oct 25, 2009)

Si modo said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Si modo said:
> ...



Or perhaps you are misusing it.


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## Coyote (Oct 25, 2009)

Si modo said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Si modo said:
> ...



Did I say it was?

Learn to read


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## Si modo (Oct 25, 2009)

Coyote said:


> Si modo said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


[Emphasis added]  Those short term memory issues affect your real life, too, I imagine.

Good to know, though.  I can add another to my ever-growing list of the deranged.


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## Coyote (Oct 25, 2009)

Si modo said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Si modo said:
> ...



Speaking of deranged, are you capable of addressing any of the points or is this all you can come up with?


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## Si modo (Oct 25, 2009)

Coyote said:


> Si modo said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


If you bring up a relevant point to me, I'll be pleased to address it.


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## Coyote (Oct 25, 2009)

Si modo said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Si modo said:
> ...



If you are incapable of doing so, just say so and stop with the silly digressions 

_Condemnation by providing a quote that is the basis of the philosophy you live by, is still condemnation._


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## Si modo (Oct 25, 2009)

Coyote said:


> Si modo said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Only if the quote applies to what needs condemnation.  That part of Kalem and my conversation obviously flew right over your head.  But, Kalem understood, as I knew he would.  He is a pretty bright guy.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 25, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Only In Islam and crime syndicates are  those who commit  crimes against humanity the good guys, and those who object and try to stop them the enemy combatants
> ...



It is not a crime to call for the capture or killing of a person  who you yourself admit  was a thief ,whose actions  you blithfully justify .
When the charity of the people of median ran out, what was Mohammeds job?
where did he get his money?


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## Kalam (Oct 26, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> 9:5 again maybe this time you will answer


I provided an answer and await your full rebuttal. If what you've already offered in response is the extent of what you plan to post, my argument stands. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> Who pays zakat?
> Who preforms as salat.


Muslims. Conversion to Islam absolves all former sins, even those committed by the oath-breaking, aggressive Mushrikuun discussed in 9:5.


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## Kalam (Oct 26, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> What is the meaning of the word "tayammum"



Permissible, yes, though modern conveniences have rendered it unnecessary for most people. Still, I doubt anyone could argue that bull piss is an acceptable substitute for dust.


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## Kalam (Oct 26, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> It is not a crime to call for the capture or killing of a person  who you yourself admit  was a thief ,whose actions  you blithfully justify .


I've never referred to Muhammad (SAWS) as a "thief", because subsisting off of the property of one's oppressors does not constitute thievery.



Mr.Fitnah said:


> When the charity of the people of median ran out, what was Mohammeds job?
> where did he get his money?


From those who forced him and his followers into poverty in the first place, just as he should have.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 26, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > What is the meaning of the word "tayammum"
> ...


 I am aware of  the ritual. I just thought  those playing along at home would like to see  what it means when you use words like " Only" and "not disputed".


> Only clean water may be used; this is not disputed .


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 26, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > It is not a crime to call for the capture or killing of a person  who you yourself admit  was a thief ,whose actions  you blithfully justify .
> ...


*There you have it folks, justifying crimes  for Islam*
They were not oppressors, they were people who did not like being robbed by Mohammad and did not want to be muslims.
  Mohammad  evolve from lying  beggar  to murderous thief in medina after  proving himself a fraud in Mecca.
His lies forced him into poverty .
 He struck back ,at those who tired of his lies after a decade  of his harassment and took to raiding the same caravans he used to lead .


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 26, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > 9:5 again maybe this time you will answer
> ...



So much for no compulsion in religion and defense jihad only.

9:5. Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islâmic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikûn (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât), and give Zakât, then leave their way free. Verily, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

This is the Ayah of the Sword

Mujahid, `Amr bin Shu`ayb, Muhammad bin Ishaq, Qatadah, As-Suddi and `Abdur-Rahman bin Zayd bin Aslam said that the four months mentioned in this Ayah are the four-month grace period mentioned in the earlier Ayah,

(So travel freely for four months throughout the land.) Allah said next,

(So when the Sacred Months have passed...), meaning, `Upon the end of the four months during which We prohibited you from fighting the idolators, and which is the grace period We gave them, then fight and kill the idolators wherever you may find them.' Allah's statement next,

(then fight the Mushrikin wherever you find them), means, on the earth in general, except for the Sacred Area, for Allah said,

(And fight not with them at Al-Masjid Al-Haram, unless they fight you there. But if they attack you, then fight them. )[2:191] Allah said here,

(and capture them), executing some and keeping some as prisoners,

*(and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush), do not wait until you find them. Rather, seek and besiege them in their areas and forts, gather intelligence about them in the various roads and fairways so that what is made wide looks ever smaller to them. This way, they will have no choice, but to die or embrace Islam,*

(But if they repent and perform the Salah, and give the Zakah, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.) Abu Bakr As-Siddiq used this and other honorable Ayat as proof for fighting those who refrained from paying the Zakah. *These Ayat allowed fighting people unless, and until, they embrace Islam and implement its rulings and obligations.* Allah mentioned the most important aspects of Islam here, including what is less important. Surely, the highest elements of Islam after the Two Testimonials, are the prayer, which is the right of Allah, the Exalted and Ever High, then the Zakah, which benefits the poor and needy. These are the most honorable acts that creatures perform, and this is why Allah often mentions the prayer and Zakah together. In the Two Sahihs, it is recorded that Ibn `Umar said that the Messenger of Allah said,


(I have been commanded to fight the people until they testify that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, establish the prayer and pay the Zakah.) This honorable Ayah (9:5) was called the Ayah of the Sword, about which Ad-Dahhak bin Muzahim said, "It abrogated every agreement of peace between the Prophet and any idolator, every treaty, and every term.'' Al-`Awfi said that Ibn `Abbas commented: "No idolator had any more treaty or promise of safety ever since Surah Bara'ah was revealed. The four months, in addition to, all peace treaties conducted before Bara'ah was revealed and announced had ended by the tenth of the month of Rabi` Al-Akhir.''

(6. And if anyone of the Mushrikin seeks your protection then grant him protection so that he may hear the Word of Allah (the Qur'an) and then escort him to where he can be secure, that is because they are men who know not.)


----------



## mdn2000 (Oct 26, 2009)

Kalam said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> > Ah, how can I possibly respond to such a post so articulate and accurate. Its actually real easy, the Koran (intentional use of spelling of 1800's) is written in Arabic. Being written in Arabic there are thousands of translations, which translation one uses is of the utmost importance,
> ...




Kalem, what do you know, you know enough to completely ignore what this topic is about and for good reason, again you speak of "disbeleivers" when this topic is about APOSTASY.

Two books, yep, just two, of course I possess over a hundred books on the Middle East.

Kalem, if you know so much and am so smart why did you state the two book I listed were from "western orientalist", one was written by the Russian consulate to Persia, last time I checked Russia is not the "west". 

Books, very few written by Arabs, very, very, few.

To dismiss Doughty shows pure igorance, but that seems to be what your about. Dismissing all information coming from the west as biased againt the poor Moslems. 

Yes, you know nothing of purification, hence you refer to the lesser purification and not the "Great" purification in which I specifically was speaking of.



> The vast majority of "honor killings" are carried out in ways that involve physical contact between the murderer and the victim.


Here Kalem is obviously refering to "stoning to death" or chopping of the head off of infidel, funny that the two most common methods  does not involve an act that touches the unclean corpse.

So in closing, and you can have the last work on this Kalem, so in closing.

Kalem refused to address Apostasy, 
Kalem dismissed two books which Kalem knows nothing of, one book Kalem labeled as western when it was Russian. 
Kalem kept refering to a disbeleiver, obfuscating the facts of this murder and Apostasy.
Kalem ignored the Hadith, specifically concentrating on the Qur'an, the Qur'an does not specify the punishment for Apostasy so this is literally Kalem's strawman arguement.
Kalem states

Yes, look to the Qur'an, show us were in the Qur'an (morons think others do not know that the Hadith's are followed as zealously as the Koran), I say how about the Hadith, silence followed.

Apostasy, the act of turning away from ones religion.
Punishment according to culture, tradion, and the word of the prophet, DEATH

So speak of disbelievers, the woman would not be treated as a disbeliever, she was treated as someone guilty of Apostasy.

Do I know more of Islam than Kalem, I think so, Kalem is not familiar with the most relevant book written in the west, if all you read is the Qur'an and the Hadith, dismissing the unbiased western scholarly works than its Kalem that has limited Kalem's knowledge. This was demonstrated by Kalem's ignorance of the use of Urine, this was demonstrated by Kalem's inability to address Apostasy. This was demonstrated by Kalem defining the conditions and terms of study one must take to credible. 

Kalem states "knowledge of Islam requires familiarizing oneself with Islamic scripture, jurisprudential resources, and other religious writings." Knowledge of Islam can be attained in many ways, a strawman arguement to define the terms of one who is credible.

Knowledge of Islam is better understood by studying the history of Islam, only by the study of history, only by the study of the culture and practise of the people of Islam can one see how people practise their beliefs. Only through the study of history can one relate current events of today such as this man who killed his daughter, with the tradions and practises of the culture. 

Kalem you have done yourself and Allah a disservice by limiting your knowledge to such a narrow area of study.
Me, I will continue the higher course of study, the collecting and reading of the thousands of book written by nonbiased credible persons who have first have experience not as mere travelers but as persons living in the midst of the culture of Islam.

So take the last work Kalem, qoute the Qur'an which any true scholar knows is not the last nor most complete word on Apostasy.


----------



## Coyote (Oct 26, 2009)

Why do you say this topic is about Apostasy?  There is nothing in the article that started the thread about that.  Nothing.  It is all your own extrapolation.


----------



## Coyote (Oct 26, 2009)

mdn2000 said:


> > The vast majority of "honor killings" are carried out in ways that involve physical contact between the murderer and the victim.
> 
> 
> 
> Here Kalem is obviously refering to "stoning to death" or chopping of the head off of infidel, funny that the two most common methods  does not involve an act that touches the unclean corpse.



Actually, when you do a search on honor killings a lot of them seem to involve stabbing or cutting throats.

As for Russia, it is BOTH east and west - that is one of it's great cultural distinctions - it's where east meets west.


----------



## mdn2000 (Oct 26, 2009)

Coyote said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> > > The vast majority of "honor killings" are carried out in ways that involve physical contact between the murderer and the victim.
> ...



Why do you cherry pick the posts you respond to, why can you not support your claim about Bill Ayers in the Anita Dunn thread.

Claiming this discussion has nothing to do with Apostasy is ignorant. 

Russia is where the east meets the west? Japan is in the east? When one spoke of the western world they spoke of Russia?

I am pretty much done with this topic, if anyone cares I listed two great sources on the culture of Islam, one free and easy to download at google books. The last couple of posts of Kalem's contained no information relevant to this topic and Coyote's last post did not aid Kalem's assertions.

The best source of information on Islam is the western world.


----------



## Coyote (Oct 26, 2009)

mdn2000 said:


> Knowledge of Islam is better understood by studying the history of Islam, only by the study of history, only by the study of the culture and practise of the people of Islam can one see how people practise their beliefs. Only through the study of history can one relate current events of today such as this man who killed his daughter, with the tradions and practises of the culture.
> .



To some extent, I agree with you but Islam is at a crossroads of reformation right now and it needs to come to terms with modern values while retaining core religious values.  This is doable because, like the bible - there is plenty of material in the Quran to support more peaceful interpretations of the religion.

I think what you are saying is that cultures create religion and you can't totally separate them.  Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all sprang from the same violent cultures and all, in their fundamentalist aspects treat women badly.  Christianity has had it's reformation and has been largely diluted by the more secular ideals that came out of the "Enlightenment" and the seperation of church from government.  Many of the countries that are predominantly Muslim don't have that separation, and are still very much in a medievil mindset clashing with change that - unlike Christianity, where it took place very slowly - is happening at an incredible speed.  People are moving around, immigrating, absorbing western ideals through the rapid dissimination of electronic media without the time to adjust as a culture.

But religions and cultures aren't static - religion can also continue to be influenced by culture.  This is evident when you look at the majority of muslim immigrants in the U.S. and Canada who have adopted western culture and have been here for several generations.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 26, 2009)

Reformation of Islam is not a rational expectation nor something you would want,
 a return to fundamental Islam is what you are hearing about in the news.
Expect more caving into Islamic demands and more lies about the  nature of Islam from politicians and the media, nothing more.


----------



## Coyote (Oct 26, 2009)

mdn2000 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > mdn2000 said:
> ...



I have neither the time nor the inclination to read through every single post on these boards or search through a ton of responses.  If you do, well more power to you.  Provide a link to the post you think I'm ignoring and I'll be happy to oblige.



> Claiming this discussion has nothing to do with Apostasy is ignorant.



No.  It's sticking to the facts of the article that began this thread.  Anything else is your opinion.



> Russia is where the east meets the west? Japan is in the east? When one spoke of the western world they spoke of Russia?



If we are talking about cultural influences, then yes: Russian culture has been shaped by its unique position on the margins of both the East and West.   It's both.



> I am pretty much done with this topic, if anyone cares I listed two great sources on the culture of Islam, one free and easy to download at google books. The last couple of posts of Kalem's contained no information relevant to this topic and Coyote's last post did not aid Kalem's assertions.
> 
> *The best source of information on Islam is the western world.*



I doubt it, because much of what the "western world" writes is from the outside looking in - it interprets Islam through it's own cultural prism.  That doesn't mean it's totally inaccurate but neither does it present the complete picture.  I think the best source would be a combination of sources - "west" and "east" and despite your assertions there is plenty of material written by Islamic authors - it just may not be widely translated.


----------



## Sunni Man (Oct 26, 2009)

mdn2000 said:


> The best source of information on Islam is the western world.



That is one of the most idiotic statements about Islam I have ever read.

Devout Islamic scholars in the Middle East have studied and written about Islam and it's theology for over a thousand years. There is nothing in the West that can even come close these great scholarly works,


mdn the Quran is the center of Islam. So all other texts and ideas must be judged in the light of what the Quran says and teaches.

Same with the Bible. It is the center piece of Christianity. So all other texts and theology must be judged as to how it aligns to the Bible.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 26, 2009)

8:7. Though God promised that one of two columns (would fall to you), you desired the one that was not armed. But God wished to confirm the truth by His words, and wipe the unbelievers out to the last,


----------



## Kalam (Oct 26, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...


My intention was clearly to deceive. God knows what would happen if people found out that dust can be used in ablutions.


----------



## Kalam (Oct 26, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> There you have it folks, justifying crimes  for Islam


Nothing Muhammad (SAWS) did was a crime. 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> They were not oppressors, they were people who did not like being robbed by Mohammad and did not want to be muslims.


Your contention is that the Makkans did not oppress the Muslims? 



Mr.Fitnah said:


> Mohammad  evolve from lying  beggar  to murderous thief in medina after  proving himself a fraud in Mecca.
> His lies forced him into poverty .
> 
> He struck back ,at those who tired of his lies after a decade  of his harassment and took to raiding the same caravans he used to lead .


Yes, that's quite nice and all, but your version of the Hijra and the life of Muhammad (SAWS) unfortunately has no basis in historical fact.


----------



## Kalam (Oct 26, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> So much for no compulsion in religion and defense jihad only.



I'm sorry; copying and pasting a tafsir from the Middle Ages does not address my post. Please do so yourself. If you are unable to, say so.


----------



## obama2ndterm (Oct 26, 2009)

*Ghoo93, you bigoted piece of SHIT.,if you hate it  so  much you should move!*


----------



## Kalam (Oct 26, 2009)

mdn2000 said:


> Kalem, what do you know, you know enough to completely ignore what this topic is about and for good reason, again you speak of "disbeleivers" when this topic is about APOSTASY.


No, the topic of this discussion is not apostasy. Try again.



mdn2000 said:


> Two books, yep, just two, of course I possess over a hundred books on the Middle East.


Coloring books don't count. You claim to be familiar with Islam, yet you didn't know that the Qur'an is the religion's most important book or that Sahih Bukhari is a hadith collection.



mdn2000 said:


> Kalem, if you know so much and am so smart why did you state the two book I listed were from "western orientalist", one was written by the Russian consulate to Persia, last time I checked Russia is not the "west".


Check again. Moscow lies west of the Ural Mountains. That's "the West."



mdn2000 said:


> Books, very few written by Arabs, very, very, few.


Here are some books written by Muslims that you may want to read:

Qur'an - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sahih al-Bukhari - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sahih Muslim - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Al-Sunan al-Sughra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sunan Abu Dawood - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sunan al-Tirmidhi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sunan ibn Maja - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Mishkat al-Masabih - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Al-Muwatta - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



mdn2000 said:


> To dismiss Doughty shows pure igorance, but that seems to be what your about. Dismissing all information coming from the west as biased againt the poor Moslems.


What's ignorant is claiming that you know more about Islam than a Muslim because you read the travel diary of a 19th-century Englishman. 



mdn2000 said:


> Yes, you know nothing of purification, hence you refer to the lesser purification and not the "Great" purification in which I specifically was speaking of.


No, that would be incorrect. I was referring to ghusl, which is a complete ablution. Partial ablution is known as wudu. Everything I posted about ablution is entire factual, based on ahadith that I cited and the fact that I perform ablutions every day per religious requirements. Don't be a fool. 



mdn2000 said:


> Here Kalem is obviously refering to "stoning to death" or chopping of the head off of infidel,


Not really.



mdn2000 said:


> funny that the two most common methods  does not involve an act that touches the unclean corpse.


Please post any data you have indicating that the aforementioned types of murder are the two most commonly used against apostates. 



mdn2000 said:


> Kalem ignored the Hadith, specifically concentrating on the Qur'an,


I'd call you a liar, but I'm convinced that you really are this stupid. 



Kalam said:


> Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: A Bedouin gave the Pledge of allegiance to Allah's Apostle for Islam and the Bedouin got a fever where upon he said to the Prophet "Cancel my Pledge." But the Prophet refused. He came to him (again) saying, "Cancel my Pledge.' But the Prophet refused. Then (the Bedouin) left (Medina). Allah's Apostle said: "Medina is like a pair of bellows: It expels its impurities and brightens and clears its good."
> 
> - Sahih Bukhari, Ahkaam (Judgment), no. 316
> 
> The same account is related in numbers 318 and 323 of that book, as well as no. 424 of book 92 ("Holding Fast to the Qur'an and Sunnah.")





Kalam said:


> Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet came across me in one of the streets of Medina and at that time I was Junub. So I slipped away from him and went to take a bath. On my return the Prophet said, "O Abu Huraira! Where have you been?" I replied, "I was Junub, so I disliked to sit in your company." The Prophet said, "Subhan Allah! A believer never becomes impure."[/I]  - Sahih Bukhari, _Ghusl_, no. 281





Kalam said:


> Sexual intercourse or any kind of sexual discharge (Sahih Muslim, _Haid_, no. 616 and others)
> Reaching puberty - full ablution is required every Friday (Sahih Bukhari, _Characteristics of Prayer_, no. 817)
> Dying (Sahih Bukhari, _Janaaiz_)



If you did not know that Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim are hadith collections, I'd go ahead and leave the discussion now if I were you. You don't have much face left to save.



mdn2000 said:


> So speak of disbelievers, the woman would not be treated as a disbeliever, she was treated as someone guilty of Apostasy.


The victim of the crime was not an apostate. 



mdn2000 said:


> Do I know more of Islam than Kalem, I think so,


Then you're deluding yourself. You do not know more about Islam than I do. Realize this. 



mdn2000 said:


> Kalem is not familiar with the most relevant book written in the west, if all you read is the Qur'an and the Hadith, dismissing the unbiased western scholarly works than its Kalem that has limited Kalem's knowledge.


If you believe that the accounts of orientalists are unbiased or necessary to understanding Islam, you're a fool. Please, I'm begging you, go and tell Grand Mufti Ali Gomaa or Shaykh Yusuf Qaradawi that you know more about Islam than they do. After all, I doubt they've read as many Western accounts of the Middle East as you have. 



mdn2000 said:


> This was demonstrated by Kalem's ignorance of the use of Urine,


Please demonstrate -- using Islamic scripture or the jurisprudential writings of any major madhhab -- that "bull urine" is an acceptable substitute for water in ghusl or wudu. Thank you. 



mdn2000 said:


> this was demonstrated by Kalem's inability to address Apostasy.


Apostasy has been addressed. It is not the subject of this discussion. 



mdn2000 said:


> This was demonstrated by Kalem defining the conditions and terms of study one must take to credible.


Please consult the syllabus of any major Islamic university and get back to me on how many 19th-century travel logs are part of the curriculum. 



mdn2000 said:


> Kalem states "knowledge of Islam requires familiarizing oneself with Islamic scripture, jurisprudential resources, and other religious writings." Knowledge of Islam can be attained in many ways, a strawman arguement to define the terms of one who is credible.


Wrong. Knowledge of Islam requires knowledge of the texts that define Islam. These are the Qur'an and the major hadith collections. Certain commentaries, biographies, and manuals of fiqh can be useful as well. It's evident that you've read none of these things. Stop embarrassing yourself by claiming that you know more about Islam than I do. 



mdn2000 said:


> Knowledge of Islam is better understood by studying the history of Islam, only by the study of history, only by the study of the culture and practise of the people of Islam can one see how people practise their beliefs.


The relevant history of Islam (ie: the history of the life of the prophet SAWS) is contained within the ahadith. One can learn about Islam by reading hadith collections and the Qur'an, which explain in detail how Islam is to be practiced.



mdn2000 said:


> Me, I will continue the higher course of study, the collecting and reading of the thousands of book written by nonbiased credible persons who have first have experience not as mere travelers but as persons living in the midst of the culture of Islam.


By all means, continue to claim that you're a "scholar of Islam" when you're completely unfamiliar with its foundational texts. 



mdn2000 said:


> So take the last work Kalem, qoute the Qur'an which any true scholar knows is not the last nor most complete word on Apostasy.


I cite the Qur'an, and you claim that it isn't the most important text in Islam. I cite ahadith, and you claim that I haven't. I cite the works that define Islam, and you claim that one can only understand Islam through worthless travel books that were written some 1200 years after the foundation of the religion. How oh how did we Muslims exist for 1200 years without brilliant "scholars of Islam" such as yourself and Doughty to explain our own religion to us? You're dismissed, fool.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 26, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > So much for no compulsion in religion and defense jihad only.
> ...


Islam was formed in the middle ages 
Yeah thats great and all, but  there is one hitch in your plan.
People can read.
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1650682-post273.html

Just produce proof Ibn kathirs Tasfir is unreliable.


Ibn Kathir born in 1302 AD was scholar of History and a mufassir (Qur'an commentator) . He was renowned for his great memory regarding the sayings of Muhammad and the entire Qur'an. 

Ibn Kathir wrote a famous commentary of the Qur'an named Tafsir ibn Kathir which linked certain Hadith, or sayings of Muhammad, and sayings of the sahaba to verses of the Qur'an, in explanation. Tafsir Ibn Kathir is famous all over the Muslim world and among Muslims in the Western world, and is one of the most widely used explanations of the Qu'ran today. This site introduces the reader to one of the most Authentic books for explaining the Quran using both arabic and english text to grasp the understanding of the Quran.
Tafsir Ibn Kathir - Quran Tafsir - Home


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 26, 2009)

Kalam said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> > Kalem, what do you know, you know enough to completely ignore what this topic is about and for good reason, again you speak of "disbeleivers" when this topic is about APOSTASY.
> ...



Argumentum ad nauseum


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 26, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > There you have it folks, justifying crimes  for Islam
> ...


Everything Mohammad did was  a crime .
His lies  against God constitute a crime .
 Islam is an ongoing crime against humanity .


----------



## Sunni Man (Oct 26, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Everything Mohammad did was  a crime .
> His lies  against God constitute a crime .



Then Mr Fitnuts you should go down to the local police dept. and file a complaint against him


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 26, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Everything Mohammad did was  a crime .
> ...


Thats pretty funny Mr. Nazi, have a laugh at this.
Muslims should be arrested, prosecuted and incarcerated under the RICO act.


----------



## Kalam (Oct 26, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Yeah thats great and all, but  there is one hitch in your plan.
> People can read.
> http://www.usmessageboard.com/1650682-post273.html
> 
> Just produce proof Ibn kathirs Tasfir is unreliable.



I have. It's hinged on a view of _naskh_ that is inconsistent with the Qur'an and with reality:




Kalam said:


> I have shown it to be true on a number of occasions; you cling to falsities because you realize that acknowledging the truth would deprive your hilariously pathetic Islamophobia of a rational basis. I'm sure that you're not even familiar with the development of the theory of internal naskh. As time has passed and knowledge has increased, a progressively fewer number of verses have been regarded as "abrogated." During the Medieval period, for example, varying numbers of passages were thought to be affected by internal abrogation - Imam Jalaluddin Al-Suyuti eventually demonstrated that no more than 21 verses could have been abrogated.
> 
> The possibly abrogated verses -- as recognized by Suyuti -- are as follows:
> 
> ...


----------



## Kalam (Oct 26, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Argumentum ad nauseum



Read what the idiot wrote. Even _you_ know more than he does.


----------



## Kalam (Oct 26, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Everything Mohammad did was  a crime .
> His lies  against God constitute a crime .
> Islam is an ongoing crime against humanity .



I'll take this outburst of irrationality as an admission of defeat.


----------



## Sunni Man (Oct 26, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Thats pretty funny Mr. Nazi, have a laugh at this.
> Muslims should be arrested, prosecuted and incarcerated under the RICO act.


Maybe you should go to the Fed's and file a complaint against all 7 million Muslims in America for being part of an organized crime family.

I am sure they would like to hear your accusations and would take you seriously.


----------



## Kalam (Oct 26, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...



Aww, SM made you angwy! 

The irony of the "Mr. Nazi" insult is lost on you, I'm sure.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 26, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Thats pretty funny Mr. Nazi, have a laugh at this.
> ...



The 7 million is a number created by CAIR.
The real number is somewhere between 1 and 2 million.


----------



## Kalam (Oct 26, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> The 7 million is a number created by CAIR.
> The real number is somewhere between 1 and 2 million.



Should be easier to round 'em up, then, right?


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 26, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Everything Mohammad did was  a crime .
> ...


That is what Islam does folks,
It  scrambles your eggs.

You tell me,
Mohammed: OG or prophet of god?


Volume 4, Book 52, Number 163(a): 
Narrated Ibn 'Umar: 

That the Prophet said, "My livelihood is under the shade of my spear (from war booty), and he who disobeys my orders will be humiliated by paying the Jizya.


----------



## Kalam (Oct 26, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...



I'll take this outburst of irrationality as an admission of defeat. 

BTW, your citations are meaningless unless you specify the name of the hadith collection you're referencing.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 26, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...


The formate  should have be familiar enough for you.
All my post are meaningless to you
It is meaningless to look for it online, you will have to go to a hard copy of sahih Bukhari to find it.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 26, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...


Muslims do not get to appropriate  any protection  from what was done to jews by muslims and Nazis through lies .
Telling the truth about Islam, is not the same as lying about Jews.


----------



## Sunni Man (Oct 26, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Muslims do not get to appropriate  any protection  from what was done to jews by muslims and Nazis through lies



Mr Fitnuts would you please translate your above sentence into a rational thought.

Thank You


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 26, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Muslims do not get to appropriate  any protection  from what was done to jews by muslims and Nazis through lies
> ...



It is plain enough.


----------



## Sunni Man (Oct 26, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...



If that is plain to you and makes sense Mr Fitnuts.

Then you really need to put the bong down for awhile


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 26, 2009)

Like I said ,Islam scrambles your eggs.
Just like fish don't know they are wet.
Muslims don't know they are demented.


----------



## Sunni Man (Oct 26, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Like I said ,*Islam scrambles your eggs*



I like scrambled eggs with hash browns and grits


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 26, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Like I said ,*Islam scrambles your eggs*
> ...


The nurse should be along  with your tray shortly.


----------



## Kalam (Oct 26, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> The formate  should have be familiar enough for you.
> All my post are meaningless to you
> It is meaningless to look for it online, you will have to go to a hard copy of sahih Bukhari to find it.


The hadith you refer to was reported by Ahmad and Ibn Asakir. Again, proper citations are necessary.


----------



## Kalam (Oct 26, 2009)

Kalam said:


> The irony of the "Mr. Nazi" insult is lost on you, I'm sure.





Mr.Fitnah said:


> Muslims do not get to appropriate  any protection  from what was done to jews by muslims and Nazis through lies. Telling the truth about Islam, is not the same as lying about Jews.



"Muslims and Nazis." 

How unsurprisingly dishonest. You won't be able to point out any examples of Muslim complicity aside from that shithead al-Husayni and two SS divisions from Bosnia and Albania (the former of which mutinied.)

A bit hypocritical of you, but nothing I haven't come to expect. 















_&#8220;The National Government will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built up. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality and the family as the basis of national life.&#8221; 

&#8220;It is the purpose of the Government &#8220;to fill our whole culture once more with a Christian spirit, and that not only in politics. We want to burn out the harmful features in our theater and our literature.&#8221;

&#8220;The Government of the Reich &#8230; regards Christianity as the unshakable foundation of the morals and moral code of the nation.&#8221; &#8220;The rights of the churches will not be diminished.&#8221;​_
All quotes are from Hitler, 1933.

Oh, and regarding Muslims: http://thenewjew.wordpress.com/2007/10/30/yad-vashem-honors-albanian-muslims-among-righteous-gentiles/


----------



## Coyote (Oct 27, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...



According to what laws?


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 27, 2009)

Coyote said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...



The law of God  and the law of Men. Mohammad came  with his laws to make  his gang with its new laws the rulers of the land .The jihad still continues.


----------



## PixieStix (Oct 27, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...


 
And he continues to be a criminal, by proxy. Way to go Islam


----------



## Coyote (Oct 27, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...



What laws would those be?

I have difficulty accepting that any legislation coming down from a pissy omnipotent omnipresent invisible man in the sky who talks to his minions through burning bushes is somehow more "valid" than that of Mohammad.

The law of Men....don't know that.  Perhaps you can provide a link?


----------



## Sunni Man (Oct 27, 2009)

Coyote said:


> The law of Men....don't know that.  Perhaps you can provide a link?



Yea, I would like to see that also


----------



## Coyote (Oct 27, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > The law of Men....don't know that.  Perhaps you can provide a link?
> ...



Well, I consulted my trusty friend Mr. Google and found it - yup, it exists! 


These are our rules!  Please note... these are all numbered "1"  on purpose!

1. Men are NOT mind readers.

1. Learn to work the toilet seat.  You're a big girl. If it's up, put it down. 
We need it up, you need it down. 
You don't hear us complaining about you leaving it down.

1. Sunday sports. It's like the full moon or the changing of the tides.  Let it be.

1. Shopping is NOT a sport.  And no, we are never going to think of it that way.

1. Crying is blackmail.

1. Ask for what you want. Let us be clear on this one: Subtle hints do not work!
Strong hints do not work! Obvious hints do not work! Just say it!

1. Yes and No are perfectly acceptable answers to almost every question.

1. A headache that lasts for 17 months is a Problem. See a doctor.

1. Anything we said 6 months ago is inadmissible in an argument.
In fact, all comments become null and void after 7 Days.

1. If you think you're fat, you probably are.  Don't ask us.

1. If something we said can be interpreted two ways and one of the
ways makes you sad or angry, we meant the other one.

1. If it itches, it will be scratched. We do that.

1. I am in shape.  Round IS a shape!


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 27, 2009)

Coyote said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



The unwritten law of society  , that we are free to believe what we wish and we wont kill each other based on  what we believe, we can disagree ,but we can coexists  and work things  out over time.
It doesn't work perfectly   but in general a society can thrive, if all people agree to not cut each other heads off because we believe it is the right thing to do for god and man .

Islam does not allow for that ,it must continue to fight until only Muslim rule and all  others are eradicated.
Once you introduce an element   that can not be trusted to adhere to  that simple idea the society falls apart  which is a benefit to the revolutionary nature of Islam.


----------



## Coyote (Oct 27, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...



I do agree with that, but I do not think any religion - in it's entirety can coexist within that framework.



> Islam does not allow for that ,it must continue to fight until only Muslim rule and all  others are eradicated.
> Once you introduce an element   that can not be trusted to adhere to  that simple idea the society falls apart  which is a benefit to the revolutionary nature of Islam.



I don't think any major religion (except may Buddhism?) can allow for that - only some sects within each.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 27, 2009)

That may be entirely do to your lack of knowledge and bigotry.


----------



## Coyote (Oct 27, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> That may be entirely do to your lack of knowledge and bigotry.



And what bigotry would that be?


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 27, 2009)

Coyote said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > That may be entirely do to your lack of knowledge and bigotry.
> ...


You will have to decide that for yourself.

We all hold  bigoted views on all sorts of topics, it is part of human nature , it is in acknowledging these human shortcomings  that we can extend our knowledge and wisdom.


----------



## Coyote (Oct 27, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...



Not really.  We hold biased views on all sorts of topics - not necessarily bigoted.

Bigot: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance​
But since your statement seems to imply that you know what my "bigotry" is, I am would like to hear that.  Stop weaseling.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 27, 2009)

You infer that which I did not imply.


----------



## Coyote (Oct 27, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> You infer that which I did not imply.



Inference of implication will be duly ignored than....


----------



## Charles Stucker (Oct 27, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> We all hold  bigoted views on all sorts of topics, it is part of human nature , it is in acknowledging these human shortcomings  that we can extend our knowledge and wisdom.


Right; so you're a bigot, but a good bigot because you acknowledge that you're a bigot.

Hypothetically would you demand the execution of someone in say Texas if they denounced the founder of Islam in a particularly forceful and graphic manner?

I did try to phrase the hypothetical question in a tasteful way and ask the forgiveness of any Islamic worshiper if I failed. I am not trying to denigrate Islam, just bigots.

And bastards who kill their own children.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 27, 2009)

charles stucker said:


> mr.fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > we all hold  bigoted views on all sorts of topics, it is part of human nature , it is in acknowledging these human shortcomings  that we can extend our knowledge and wisdom.
> ...


have you lost your mind or are you unable to read?


----------



## Charles Stucker (Oct 28, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> have you lost your mind or are you unable to read?



I'm just trying to determine if you are a "good bigot" or a bastard who would kill their own child for converting to Judaism.


----------



## mystic (Oct 28, 2009)

A man kills his own child...what does it have to do with religion? Nothing. 
Culture? Maybe. 
Mental illness? Probably.

And instead of discussing ways of supporting battered women and children services, some on this thread try to use the death of this child as a talking point for their war against peace.

Shame on you.


----------



## Charles Stucker (Oct 28, 2009)

mystic said:


> A man kills his own child...what does it have to do with religion?


If a man kills his own child for embracing un-Islamic beliefs then it does have something to do with religion. 
If Islamic Terrorists kill a busload of school children, it has something to do with religion.
If Islam is about peace, why do so many Islamic fanatics kill anyone who fails to convert?

There are two extremes of views about Islam in America:
One extreme is that Islam is a religion of peace and we should be tolerant as they try to get their fanatics under control; at most we oppose the violent fanatics.
The other is; Kill em all now let Allah have them.

The problem is that every "Islamic" atrocity shifts more people toward the second view. I put Islamic in quotes because the determination of what is an "Islamic" atrocity lies in the eyes of the person hearing of a particular atrocity.

As soon as enough people in the US have the second view there exists the real possibility of US atrocities. The US has the technological and military ability to shatter industry throughout the Islamic world with Neutron bombs. All we need is a secret agreement beforehand with China and Russia and we're set to go on that. Nuke them, then drop designer pathogens on their crops, then blockade any ports not destroyed in the initial strike and let them starve. Divide the territory with the Indians, Chinese and Russians and move through killing anything which moves. 
I would like to avoid that worst case scenario, and the best way is to convince the Islamic moderates to police their own. 
Or would you deny that Islamic moderates exist in sufficient numbers to bring the rabid dogs to bay?


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 28, 2009)

You would benefit from read  the management of savagery .


----------



## Shogun (Oct 28, 2009)

....ironically, this guy probably thinks the holocaust against jews was horrible yet he has no problem with nuking isreal's unwanteds.


there truly is nothing new under the sun.


----------



## Charles Stucker (Oct 28, 2009)

Shogun said:


> ....ironically, this guy probably thinks the holocaust against jews was horrible yet he has no problem with nuking isreal's unwanteds.


If you are referring to my last post, then perhaps you missed the "I would like to avoid this" section. Did I use too many big words for you?
To sum up;
Either Islam brings their fanatics to heel or someone else eventually will.
Those someones will eventually use Mongol methods for pacification - completely wipe out the problematic populations and take their land.
Unless Allah suddenly shifts the global power balance radically in their favor.

So go on and make a few more excuses for Islamic radicals blowing up school children. Keep laughing every time terrorists kill a few more "unbelievers."
But don't expect undue sympathy when the tables turn and people, having tired of waiting for Islam to embrace peace, destroy them totally.


----------



## mystic (Oct 28, 2009)

Charles Stucker said:


> mystic said:
> 
> 
> > A man kills his own child...what does it have to do with religion?
> ...



The article didn't say that. In fact, it mentioned culture. 

For the sake of argument, let us say that it was in fact because of religious beliefs. Are you proposing that Islam supports the killing of your children if they become too "Americanized"? If this father thought that what he was doing was Islamic, then that is a point to be addressed, which is what I think you're trying to do. 
But the great majority of Muslims would see this as a satanic act. Can you not compare it to the majority of Christians who want nothing to do with nazis or the kkk?



Charles Stucker said:


> If Islamic Terrorists kill a busload of school children, it has something to do with religion.
> If Islam is about peace, why do so many Islamic fanatics kill anyone who fails to convert?



There are many fanatical religious nut jobs in the world. Of all faiths. Most of the time, like you say in your example above of Islamic terrorists killing a busload of schoolchildren, the reason given might be "religion", but the actual motivation be political. I see this time and time again.



Charles Stucker said:


> There are two extremes of views about Islam in America:
> One extreme is that Islam is a religion of peace and we should be tolerant as they try to get their fanatics under control; at most we oppose the violent fanatics.
> The other is; Kill em all now let Allah have them.
> 
> The problem is that every "Islamic" atrocity shifts more people toward the second view. I put Islamic in quotes because the determination of what is an "Islamic" atrocity lies in the eyes of the person hearing of a particular atrocity.



Exactly my point. Most times the motivation is political, yet it is packaged and marketed as religious. All the better to fan the flames. Read my sig. 



Charles Stucker said:


> As soon as enough people in the US have the second view there exists the real possibility of US atrocities. The US has the technological and military ability to shatter industry throughout the Islamic world with Neutron bombs. All we need is a secret agreement beforehand with China and Russia and we're set to go on that. Nuke them, then drop designer pathogens on their crops, then blockade any ports not destroyed in the initial strike and let them starve. Divide the territory with the Indians, Chinese and Russians and move through killing anything which moves.
> I would like to avoid that worst case scenario, and the best way is to convince the Islamic moderates to police their own.
> Or would you deny that Islamic moderates exist in sufficient numbers to bring the rabid dogs to bay?



uh, you sound like you've given this a lot of thought.  That's a lot of territory to nuke. If America actually did that, _everyone_ would have fallout. Plus, you better get all the Muslims living in western countries, otherwise, there would be reprisals. Yeah, that's going to get messy. 
How about we just kill everybody who doesn't have blue eyes? Then we could hunt down the Muslims who happen to have blue eyes. That might be quicker. And more efficient.
You wouldn't miss anyone that way.


----------



## mystic (Oct 28, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> You would benefit from read  the management of savagery .


Were you talking to me?
I was about to say, "I will; I like to read," but then I looked it up online. It's not a _real_ book. It's not published. And therefore not worthy of my attention. 
Best "case against Islam" type book I've read so far has been Hirshi Ali's Infidel. Really thought-provoking. Although, I must say, it's more of an argument against religion in general. And I just happened to love her writing style.


----------



## Sunni Man (Oct 28, 2009)

Hirshi Ali is both an atheist and a lesbian.

It is now known that her personal story was a lie.

She had made it up to get refuge status in Denmark.

When this was found out, was kicked out of that country.


----------



## mystic (Oct 28, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> Hirshi Ali is both an atheist and a lesbian.
> 
> It is now known that her personal story was a lie.
> 
> ...



Have you read the book? How is it known? Who could possibly know that her life story is a lie, but her? 
I doubt very much it's a lie. Women in Somalia routinely are subjected to FGM and forced marriages. Are you saying this is not true?

She did lie on her residency application in fear of being sent back. She used a different last name so as not to be tracked. When this was made an issue because of her involvement in politics, she resigned from parliament. Her citizenship was annulled, but then reinstated. She was never kicked out of the country. She lives in the US by choice. She still has Dutch citizenship. You don't have to believe me. You can look it up.


----------



## Sunni Man (Oct 28, 2009)

mystic said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > Hirshi Ali is both an atheist and a lesbian.
> ...


"Once in the Netherlands, she requested political asylum and received a residence permit. It is not known on what grounds she received political asylum, though she has admitted that *she had lied by devising a false story about having to flee Mogadishu and spending time in refugee camps on the border between Somalia and Kenya*. In reality, she did spend time in those camps, but in order to help relatives who were trapped there; she was already safely settled in Kenya at the time open warfare erupted in the Somali capital. She gave a false name and date of birth to the Dutch immigration authorities,"

"about the reason for seeking asylum, which had been the threat of a forced marriage, despite a claim to the contrary on the TV program by some of her relatives"

www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi


----------



## Charles Stucker (Oct 28, 2009)

mystic said:


> That's a lot of territory to nuke. If America actually did that, _everyone_ would have fallout. Plus, you better get all the Muslims living in western countries, otherwise, there would be reprisals.


Nuke using neutron bombs, to reduce the long term radiation. 
Only hit major Manufacturing centers.
And time it for a big Islamic holy day and round up all the Islamic worshipers in the US, just like Japanese in WWII, while they're at worship and before the news hits.

Or
Have the Islamic moderates take control of their religion and eliminate most of those fire-breathing fanatics. Perhaps the US could help out by making a list of Islamic Charities that don't funnel money to terrorists and make that list freely available. Cutting the flow of funds from Moderates would either eliminate most of the threat, or show that the moderates are too few.


----------



## Againsheila (Oct 28, 2009)

mystic said:


> A man kills his own child...what does it have to do with religion? Nothing.
> Culture? Maybe.
> Mental illness? Probably.
> 
> ...



In this particular case, it had EVERYTHING to do with religion.  He called it an HONOR KILLING.  He did it BECAUSE of his religion, not in spite of it.


----------



## Kalam (Oct 28, 2009)

Though it clearly wasn't her intention, Ayaan Hirsi Ali is more of a critic of Somali society than she is of the Islamic religion. Her book is more of a misdirected attempt at a polemic than an autobiography. She doesn't know enough about Islam to denounce the entire religion so confidently. Here's a good review of the book, IMO:

Only One Side Of The Story | Newsweek.com

Case in point - even in the few quoted sentences of hers in that article, Hirsi Ali attributes a saying to the Qur'an that actually came from a hadith (#2771) in Ibn Majah's _Sunan_.


----------



## Kalam (Oct 28, 2009)

Againsheila said:


> In this particular case, it had EVERYTHING to do with religion.  He called it an HONOR KILLING.


He did? Where?



Againsheila said:


> He did it BECAUSE of his religion, not in spite of it.


If that's so, then why have you failed to respond to my question?


Kalam said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> > The difference is that the man who killed his daughter was following his religion
> ...


----------



## Againsheila (Oct 28, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> > In this particular case, it had EVERYTHING to do with religion.  He called it an HONOR KILLING.
> ...



Different people interpret it differently....you are the one that prayed for the death and condemned to hell the person who started this thread.....where did you come up with that idea if not from your religion?

Or is your religion so insignificant that praying for someone's death is no big deal????


----------



## Kalam (Oct 28, 2009)

Againsheila said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > Againsheila said:
> ...



Actually, I condemned the perpetrator of the crime and called for _him _to be condemned to hell. Let's hear it for reading comprehension. 

Also, where did the perpetrator call his crime an "honor killing"?


----------



## Coyote (Oct 28, 2009)

Againsheila said:


> mystic said:
> 
> 
> > A man kills his own child...what does it have to do with religion? Nothing.
> ...



In this particular case, you don't bother to read the article...all 8 sentances of it.

He did not call it an HONOR KILLING.   According to the article:  Faleh Hassan Almaleki was angry with his daughter "as she had become too 'Westernized' and was not living according to [the family's] traditional Iraq_ values," 

Nor does it say anything about his religion.

But feel free to make stuff up if it satisfies your religious hatred _


----------



## Coyote (Oct 28, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> > Kalam said:
> ...



I think that's part of her reading comprehension problem....


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 28, 2009)

mystic said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > You would benefit from read  the management of savagery .
> ...


No, I was not posting to you,  you  have no interest in this.

Management of Savagery, subtitled The Most Critical Stage Through Which the Ummah Will Pass was uploaded to the Internet in 2004 by the al-Qaeda terrorist organization. Its author Abu Bakr Naji is unidentified, and is known only for this piece plus some contributions to the al-Qaeda online magazine Sawt al-Jihad. Some believe Naji's book has influenced al-Qaeda.
Management of Savagery has been translated into English and is available online.[1] An overview is also available.[2]


----------



## Charles Stucker (Oct 29, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Management of Savagery



Must lose a lot in translation. Sounds like typical fanatic rubbish with a slight understanding of the principles of guerrilla warfare thrown in. Emphasis on the slight.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 29, 2009)

What it loses in translation pales in comparison  to what it loses unread.
If you are  confident that you understand  vexation and exhaustion tactics of Islamic fighters,please do not read.


----------



## Charles Stucker (Oct 29, 2009)

Do you, Herr Fitnah read history?
Question "How did Islam conquer the Turks?"
Answer "By losing the battles and then peacefully assimilating their conquerors."
In the modern world you might be able to exhaust America with attrition tactics, but China is poised to "fill the vacuum" and no wailing and gnashing of teeth by Islamic radical idiot will make it possible for you to succeed against them at attrition. They do understand Mongol tactics and will employ them. They can carve up the little Islamic states and no Net-prophet is going to change the fractious nature of Islam to create a superstate. 
The Ottoman empire wasn't as monolithic as you might suppose. 
"al Maghreb" aka the western portion of North Africa was not under control of the Ottomans at any point. Neither was all the converted population east of India.
With all that, at the height of their power, the Ottoman Empire failed to take Vienna. They got driven back for their efforts. 
You ought to learn how to read more than just moronic "revolutionary pamphlets" written on the net.


----------



## mystic (Oct 29, 2009)

Kalam said:


> Though it clearly wasn't her intention, Ayaan Hirsi Ali is more of a critic of Somali society than she is of the Islamic religion.



*I totally agree.* It really is cultural practices that most of her issues stem from. She admits that she initially lied on her application and there's really nothing in the book that would make me think she's lying or exaggerating. I've read quite a few autobiographies of women from sahara/sub sahara areas, and their experiences have certain parallels.



Againsheila said:


> Different people interpret it differently....you are the one that prayed for the death and condemned to hell the person who started this thread.....where did you come up with that idea if not from your religion?



You gotta feel sorry for her, don't ya?


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 29, 2009)

Charles Stucker said:


> Do you, Herr Fitnah read history?
> Question "How did Islam conquer the Turks?"
> Answer "By losing the battles and then peacefully assimilating their conquerors."
> In the modern world you might be able to exhaust America with attrition tactics, but China is poised to "fill the vacuum" and no wailing and gnashing of teeth by Islamic radical idiot will make it possible for you to succeed against them at attrition. They do understand Mongol tactics and will employ them. They can carve up the little Islamic states and no Net-prophet is going to change the fractious nature of Islam to create a superstate.
> ...


Thanks,we are done here.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 29, 2009)

If anyone who is not a "self indulgent know it  all"would like to read the document in question  it can be found here . American Thinker: Know Your Terrorist Enemy

West Point's Combatting Terrorism Center have done. 
'The key to defeating the jihadi movement is identifying its strengths and weaknesses so that the former may be countered or coopted and the latter exploited.'​'Stealing AlQa'ida's Playbook' examines the writings of four prominent terrorist ideologues:  Abu Bakr Naji (The Management of Barbarism), Ayman alZawahiri (Knights Under The Banner of The Prophet), Abu Qatada (Between Two Methods) and Abu Mus'ab alSuri (Observations Concerning the Jihadi Experience in Syria). If you want to understand the enemy, these guys are a good place to start.
Naji does not believe the terrorist movement can defeat the United States in headtohead confrontation. He takes the long, asymmetrical view:  initially, there will be important propaganda victories, followed by increasing societal and economic strains which will eventually result in political defeat.  Naji, noting this strategy was highly successful against the Soviet Union, believes it has an even better chance with the* U.S. because 'it does not have the ruthless or resolve' of the USSR. *
The propaganda victories Naji foresees will stem from Middle Eastern countries (Iraq not specified) that have been invaded and occupied by the U.S.  Citizens will be outraged at the (infidel) occupiers, and as the war drags on, they will see that in fact this superpower is not invincible. 
Their anger will also be directed at the 'proxy government.'  As the authors put it 'this will lead to social unrest at home and the ultimate defeat of the superpower.'  (If I didn't know any better, I'd say Naji is using our Vietnam experience as his template.)


----------



## mdn2000 (Oct 31, 2009)

Kalam said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> > Kalem, what do you know, you know enough to completely ignore what this topic is about and for good reason, again you speak of "disbeleivers" when this topic is about APOSTASY.






> I cite the Qur'an, and you claim that it isn't the most important text in Islam. I cite ahadith, and you claim that I haven't. I cite the works that define Islam, and you claim that one can only understand Islam through worthless travel books that were written some 1200 years after the foundation of the religion. How oh how did we Muslims exist for 1200 years without brilliant "scholars of Islam" such as yourself and Doughty to explain our own religion to us? You're dismissed, fool.



You cite the Koran and than lie about my claims, I never made the claim it was not the most important text, so why must a Moslem lie, simple, the truth is not on this moslems side, further according to the koran, its okay for a moslem to lie to the infidels.


I thought I would let you have the last word on this but you prove to be to big of an idioit. 

Coloring books, gee, you dismiss all western works as coloring books. This shows Kalem as being completely biased.

How can one debate or discuss with a person who's position is all western books are coloring books, you cannot, its this kind of bigotry that was exhibited by the man that ran over his daughter. 

As far as everything Kalem posts in response to my posts, it is very clear that Kalem knows nothing of muslem culture. 

Kalem has resorted to attacking the messenger, nice tactic of the liberal/marxist, attack and demean the messenger while misquoting and telling complete lies. 

Kalem is actually the sound I make when I clear my throat and hack up a green piece of phlem.

So there is nothing to address in Kalem's response to my post, what one should note is kalem is biased, has only studied the koran, has cherry picked the koran in order to avoid the relevant text in other moslem words such as the Hadith.

Had Kalem not dismissed all western works as biased coloring books kalem would of been educated on the moslem culture and recognized this murder as being an Islamic moslem murder based on the religion of Islam, based on the culture of Islam, based on the traditions of moslem people. Being so narrow minded and concentrated only on a passage in the Koran blinded kalem to the truth.

Or of course, the more sinister explanation is Kalem knows the truth and and wishes to hide the truth. 

This is the problem with some Moslems, Kalem will defend Islam and be completely ignorant to the harm kalem does to Islam. My perception is there are religous zealots, religous extremists in the Islamic religion, Kalem is Moslem extremist. 

Kalem is the problem with Islam

Kalem you did not mention the Hadith until I brought up how kalem is ignoring the hadith, Kalem allowed posts to stand citing the quran when kalem supposedly knew the hadith contained the relevant facts. 

Kalem you put word in my mouth and twisted my word into things I never said nor implied.

Kalem shows how according to the quran and mohammed its okay to lie and deceive. 

That is our next bit topic, in Islam it is okay, it is condoned, its perfectly okay to lie and cheat an Infidel. The Hadiths and Quran speak of this, of course Kalem is not familiar with the culture of Islam so he dont know this. 

In closing, I will quote another book or as KALEM likes to call them, biased-western-coloring books.



> The termination of the Iraq Mandate in 1932, which was so significant a landmark in the political development of that country, unfortunately marked the beginning of the a decline in the flow of documentary material and books on the development of this new State.


From the Oxford University Press

You see, western sources are the best non-biased source for facts on Moslems. You can dismiss one or two books as "coloring books" as Kalem has, but you cannot dismiss all the books. What Kalem does not know or chooses to ignore is that very few moslems per captia compared to the wertern world were educated, that is why the west is the best source. Only the very elite in the Moslem world became educated. That may of changed I do not know. What is true is the best Moslem scholars, if there are any, all became educated in western schools. 

Thats right, Moslems had no chance of a university level educatation in the moslem world, that is why the western world is the best source. 

The Oxford University Press cannot be argued with, they state there was a decline in printed works after the moslems took over, that is the fact. The reason being so few moslems had the education to write.


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## Kalam (Oct 31, 2009)




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## mdn2000 (Oct 31, 2009)

Kalam said:


>




The site you cite does not disprove my assertion, it is very extreme to call all western books biased and nothing more than coloring books. 

It is very extreme to obfuscate the facts of a honor killing or one guilty of apostasy.

It is very extreme to misquote a westerner.

It is an extremist who must lie, it is an extremist who must put words in the opponents mouth, it is the extremist who obfuscates the facts.

To completley ignore the history and works of great western scholars is part oif being an extremist.


Kalem is a Moslem Extremist.


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## Kalam (Oct 31, 2009)




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## mdn2000 (Oct 31, 2009)

Kalam said:


>





> Respect for humanity in general


Kalem:


> Coloring books don't count



A contradiction, where is the respect? I went to your site, it talks of respect so how is labeling western works coloring books in accordance to who kalem portrays him or herself.  This is extreme to claim to be respectful on the one hand, and be disrespectful on the other.

Kalem:


> Check again. Moscow lies west of the Ural Mountains. That's "the West."



Check again, ever here of the "Eastern Block", Kalem, you simply prove that you do not respect others facts.

Kalem does not know the difference between the "eastern bloc" and the "western world".

It is very extreme to support ones position while the facts are clear.

So Kalem, your refusal to even admit an error is extreme.

kalem simply proves kalem is a moslem extremist bigot.

Kalem, I had to laugh at your cut and paste from wikipedia, I thought you were a moslem scholar, scholars do not cite wikipedia. 

Kalem shows Kalem knows very little, from not knowing that Russia was the Eastern Bloc and not of the Western world to using wikipedia. I am sorry I called you a moslem extremist, Kalem is simply not educated or simply ignorant.

Kalem is not a moslem extremist, that would be a badge of honor, kalem may merely be a simple fool. We will see if Kalem is able to swallow kalem's ego and correct kalem's errors.


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## Kalam (Oct 31, 2009)

You're no Bernard Lewis, fuck-knuckle. 

I've already spent enough time addressing your fallacy-filled posts. If anybody's still stupid enough to believe that you're a credible source of information on Islam, another post of mine isn't going to help them. Goodbye.


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## Sunni Man (Oct 31, 2009)

You are one silly person mdn2000

The Middle East is full of universities and schools of higher education.

In fact, muslims basically invented the university educational system.

Which Europe centurys later copied and spread to America.


"The University of Al Karaouine in Fez, Morocco is thus recognized by the Guinness Book of World Records as the oldest degree-granting university in the world with its founding in 859 by Fatima al-Fihri.  Also in the 9th century, Bimaristan medical schools were founded in the medieval Islamic world, where medical degrees and diplomas were issued to students of Islamic medicine who were qualified to be a practicing Doctor of Medicine.  Al-Azhar University, founded in Cairo, Egypt in 975, was a Jami'ah university which offered a variety of post-graduate degrees and had individual faculties for a theological seminary, Islamic law and jurisprudence, Arabic grammar, Islamic astronomy, early Islamic philosophy, and logic in Islamic philosophy".

University - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## mdn2000 (Oct 31, 2009)

Kalam said:


> You're no Bernard Lewis, fuck-knuckle.
> 
> I've already spent enough time addressing your fallacy-filled posts. If anybody's still stupid enough to believe that you're a credible source of information on Islam, another post of mine isn't going to help them. Goodbye.



Respect for humanity in general, Kalem you do not practise what the Qur'an preaches.

Fallacy filled posts yet kalem thinks Communist Russia was the western world and not the "Eastern Bloc". To not understand the difference between the east and west shows who is actually stupid. 

If Kalem thinks Kalem is credible after Kalem shows complete ignorance to the Eastern Bloc countries and the Western world than Kalem is a fool, and according to the old Arab proverb, "a man who is born a fool, remains a fool", well, Kalem proves that there is wisdom  in this old arab proverb.


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## mdn2000 (Oct 31, 2009)

Sunni Man said:


> You are one silly person mdn2000
> 
> The Middle East is full of universities and schools of higher education.
> 
> ...



Sunni, are you claiming that under the Moslem-Turkish rule of the Ottoman empire education did not significantly decline? Do you wish to make that claim in regards to Iraq and the period I specify?

Muslims invented the university system, lets make one thing clear, wikipedia is not a source nor is google

I made a very specific point citing a very specific fact, so do you care to reconsider your words Sunniman?


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## Coyote (Oct 31, 2009)

mdn2000 said:


> Kalam said:
> 
> 
> > mdn2000 said:
> ...



Okay....................














..........so.............








What's your excuse for lying then?


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## Coyote (Oct 31, 2009)

mdn2000 said:


> Fallacy filled posts yet kalem thinks Communist Russia was the western world and not the "Eastern Bloc". To not understand the difference between the east and west shows who is actually stupid.



That is the most bizzare and illogical mish mash of ideas there.

Eastern Bloc is not the same as East and West in terms of culture.


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## Mr.Fitnah (Oct 31, 2009)

You lost it .


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## Coyote (Oct 31, 2009)

Mr.Fitnah said:


> You lost it .



You never had it


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## mdn2000 (Oct 31, 2009)

Coyote said:


> Mr.Fitnah said:
> 
> 
> > You lost it .
> ...



I am not great at english, do you mean "than or then".

My excuse for lying is I cannot sleep while sitting or standing. 

I dont see what that has to do with the topic.

Now if Coyote cares to be specific or serious I will gladly oblige.


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## chanel (Nov 2, 2009)

Update:



> Noor Almaleki remains hospitalized in serious condition after undergoing spinal surgery. The other woman, Amal Khalaf, is in serious but stable condition, according to family members.
> 
> Police said the Almalekis moved to Peoria from Iraq in the mid-1990s.
> 
> ...



Arizona Jails Iraqi Driver Accused of Running Down Daughter With His Car - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News - FOXNews.com


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## mdn2000 (Nov 12, 2009)

Why is so much left out of these stories, this man was a Sunni, the ft. hood killer is a sunni, these moslems are not Iranian Shia, they are Sunni. We ally ourselves with Sunni Saudi Arabia and we get attacked on 9/11 by Sunni's from Saudi Arabia. 

So why is the media not reporting on what is a Sunni terrorist problem. I dont blame Iran for seeking nukes, they must see Sunni's as a danger, they must see the USA giving weapons to the Sunni Saudi's. 

Shia or Sunni, look at every single terror attack and its all Sunni, its Sunni who are killing christian women and children in Kosovo, Israel, Spain, the USA. 

The media says Islam is a peaceful religion yet they do not identify that these cowardly murderers are all Sunni. We must identify the problem before a solution can be proposed and acted apon.


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## Coyote (Nov 12, 2009)

mdn2000 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.Fitnah said:
> ...



Ahhhhh.....another spelling Nazi....

Then could be then or than - both would fit eh?

Are you that was a serious post I was responding to?


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## The_Halfmoon (Nov 12, 2009)




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## The_Halfmoon (Nov 12, 2009)

mdn2000 said:


> Why is so much left out of these stories, this man was a Sunni, the ft. hood killer is a sunni, these moslems are not Iranian Shia, they are Sunni. We ally ourselves with Sunni Saudi Arabia and we get attacked on 9/11 by Sunni's from Saudi Arabia.
> 
> So why is the media not reporting on what is a Sunni terrorist problem. I dont blame Iran for seeking nukes, they must see Sunni's as a danger, they must see the USA giving weapons to the Sunni Saudi's.
> 
> ...



it is true, but mainly because the Shia use suicide bombing as a military tactic.  Every Shia terrorist had to get permission directly from Iran.  They're far more centralized and organized, whilst the Sunni tend to be individuals interpreting the Koran for their own agenda.  

The main reason Shia terrorism is not prevalent is not so much religious, as it is the fact that shia societies are very much organized and run like western militaries.


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## Kalam (Nov 12, 2009)

The_Halfmoon said:


>



Shi'ite heretics self-mutilating as they mourn the death of Husayn ibn Ali. Most Shi'ites, of course, don't take part in this sinful and demented practice.


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## mal (Nov 13, 2009)

Kalam said:


> The_Halfmoon said:
> 
> 
> >
> ...



What Percentage would you say are Sympathetic to it?...



peace...


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## nia588 (Nov 20, 2009)

This crap has nothing to do with Islam. Honor killing is some cultural bull crap that was happening in Arab cultures way back in the day before Islam even came about. The face that ignorant fools believe 1.3 billion(world Muslim population) people think honor killings is OK is just wrong.

Murder is wrong whether it's done in the name of Islam, Christianity, Spaghetti monster, who the fudge ever it's wrong.


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