# The end of windows XP and Microsoft collosal stupity.



## MisterBeale (Apr 1, 2014)

http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2014/01/21/264571072/as-windows-xp-fades-away-will-its-users-stick-with-microsoft
*As Windows XP Fades Away, Will Its Users Stick With Microsoft?*


> But the company faces a challenge as it herds its users away from the 12-year-old operating system: With so many computing options on the market, customers leaving XP behind might end up leaving Microsoft behind, too.
> 
> What The End Means For You
> 
> ...



http://www.marketplace.org/topics/tech/95-percent-us-atms-run-windows-xp



> *Who is still using Microsoft XP?* Probably your aunt, your grandparents and probably your parents.
> 
> 20 percent of computers worldwide use XP. Its the second most popular operating system behind Windows 7.
> 
> ...



I think I'll be partitioning my drive and coming here via Linux from now on. . . . My machine is will do a new operating system, but why should I buy one?  Thieves.

http://www.economist.com/node/13354332


> The strategy of planned obsolescence is common in the computer industry too. New software is often carefully calculated to reduce the value to consumers of the previous version. This is achieved by making programs upwardly compatible only; in other words, the new versions can read all the files of the old versions, but not the other way round. Someone holding the old version can communicate only with others using the old version. It is as if every generation of children came into the world speaking a completely different language from their parents. While they could understand their parents' language, their parents could not understand theirs.


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## martybegan (Apr 1, 2014)

MisterBeale said:


> http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2014/01/21/264571072/as-windows-xp-fades-away-will-its-users-stick-with-microsoft
> *As Windows XP Fades Away, Will Its Users Stick With Microsoft?*
> 
> 
> ...



Simple solution. If Microsoft abandons support, it abandons ownership protection. Someone else is now free to take up the slack. I'm sure current XP users would cough up $1-$2 per patch for "support" if they really wanted to keep using the system.


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## Chuckt (Apr 1, 2014)

martybegan said:


> MisterBeale said:
> 
> 
> > http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2014/01/21/264571072/as-windows-xp-fades-away-will-its-users-stick-with-microsoft
> ...



What is lesser known is the fact they are still providing support for Chinese users of XP.


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## Pogo (Apr 2, 2014)

Who's still using XP?

People who don't buy the Microslush bullshit idea of "if it ain't broke, change it".


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## Politico (Apr 3, 2014)

A lot of people on a planet called Earth.


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## Mojo2 (Apr 3, 2014)

MisterBeale said:


> http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2014/01/21/264571072/as-windows-xp-fades-away-will-its-users-stick-with-microsoft
> *As Windows XP Fades Away, Will Its Users Stick With Microsoft?*
> 
> 
> ...



As beautiful as Apple products are, they are too pricey and their planned obsolescence rate is ridiculously frequent. As much as i loved Mac, i will not dance to their tune any more.

XP has been around for 12 years and I think I will see if I can re-up with a Microsoft system for another decade or more.

The lack of backward compatibility sucks.

Imagine a $30,000 car you bought 15 years ago no longer being able to drive on the streets, lanes and hiways of America.

Bullshit.

Someone should do something.

I don't pretend to know what that might be.

I don't want to get all Communisty on free enterprise but something should be done.


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## iamwhatiseem (Apr 3, 2014)

Businesses use XP still everywhere.
Ours does. 
Windows 8 is probably the most business unfriendly OS on the planet. 
Windows 7 was not on new PC's for long enough for a lot of businesses to migrate to it as obviously businesses wait till bugs are worked out.
Not one of our enterprise systems works with Windows 8 - not one.


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## mudwhistle (Apr 3, 2014)

iamwhatiseem said:


> Businesses use XP still everywhere.
> Ours does.
> Windows 8 is probably the most business unfriendly OS on the planet.
> Windows 7 was not on new PC's for long enough for a lot of businesses to migrate to it as obviously businesses wait till bugs are worked out.
> Not one of our enterprise systems works with Windows 8 - not one.



Microsoft has been really screwing up lately.

Their release of the XBOX One was a major mistake. They also made the mistake of making one of my favorite games Forsa XBOX One exclusive. 

I'm not buying Forsa 4. It would cost me over $500 just to play that damned game if you include the price of new console. I'm perfectly happy with the XBOX360.


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## iamwhatiseem (Apr 3, 2014)

mudwhistle said:


> iamwhatiseem said:
> 
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> > Businesses use XP still everywhere.
> ...



Yep - the XboxOne rollout was very typical of Microsoft...repackaged original.
Why would anyone "upgrade" to an XBoxOne? 
And Windows 8? God it is annoying, it is the exact opposite of what an operating system is supposed to be.


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## Chuckt (Apr 4, 2014)

Pogo said:


> Who's still using XP?
> 
> People who don't buy the Microslush bullshit idea of "if it ain't broke, change it".



If all you use your computer for is Word Processing, why do you need a new computer every couple of years?  It is a waste of money.


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## Iceweasel (Apr 4, 2014)

MisterBeale said:


> I think I'll be partitioning my drive and coming here via Linux from now on. . . . My machine is will do a new operating system, but why should I buy one?  Thieves.


I've been on Linux for 3+ years. I still have XP on one partician since I have an expensive program that needs it. I don't need it but rarely, otherwise I'm on one of three Linux distros, Debian is my main one. Don't start there though unless you are familiar with Linux. Ubuntu or Mint would be a good start.

You might also consider adding a second drive and putting it there, that way the grub (bootup screen) won't overwrite Windows' boot. Otherwise you can partician during the install and add Linux automatically to coexist with Windows or manually adjust it (which might be a bit confusing). 

I've had Macs too and Linux has the best of both worlds but it does have a steeper learning curve. I'm no geek so it's very doable these days.


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## iamwhatiseem (Apr 4, 2014)

Iceweasel said:


> MisterBeale said:
> 
> 
> > I think I'll be partitioning my drive and coming here via Linux from now on. . . . My machine is will do a new operating system, but why should I buy one?  Thieves.
> ...



I have LinuxMint running on two laptops and a desktop at home.
It is awesome. It beats the daylights out of Windows. 
The learning curve is getting it setup with codecs etc....but after that it is so much faster and cleaner that Windows, especially Win8 which is a nightmare.


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## Iceweasel (Apr 4, 2014)

iamwhatiseem said:


> I have LinuxMint running on two laptops and a desktop at home.
> It is awesome. It beats the daylights out of Windows.
> The learning curve is getting it setup with codecs etc....but after that it is so much faster and cleaner that Windows, especially Win8 which is a nightmare.


Yep, and the overhead is a lot less too. I generally use less than 600 megs of memory with a browser, email program, Mac style Cairo dock going and three virtual desktops for two monitors (something I hear Windows still doesn't do).


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## iamwhatiseem (Apr 4, 2014)

Iceweasel said:


> iamwhatiseem said:
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> > I have LinuxMint running on two laptops and a desktop at home.
> ...



I have the desktop setup as my "entertainment center"
I have Plex Server running on it, and then via Roku I share any movie/show/music to every TV in the house. I transferred all of my DVD collection to an external drive, as well as downloaded movies - and watch them in full 1080 anywhere in the house.
Works well.


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## Iceweasel (Apr 4, 2014)

iamwhatiseem said:


> I have the desktop setup as my "entertainment center"
> I have Plex Server running on it, and then via Roku I share any movie/show/music to every TV in the house. I transferred all of my DVD collection to an external drive, as well as downloaded movies - and watch them in full 1080 anywhere in the house.
> Works well.


I watch movies on this one too but not to the TV. I have (had) XBMCuntu on another partition and broke it. I'm not sure if I'll reinstall it, it was TOO lightweight. I'll have to look into Plex Server.


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## mudwhistle (Apr 4, 2014)

iamwhatiseem said:


> mudwhistle said:
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8.1 is only a fraction better.

It's still difficult to find things.


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## Chuckt (Apr 4, 2014)

iamwhatiseem said:


> Iceweasel said:
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> > MisterBeale said:
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Windows 8 was a nightmare at first.  We got it to work.  Some things like search doesn't work and we don't buy apps from the app store.  I found a way to keep Windows 8 from booting to the app menu because we don't use it so Windows 8 just boots to the desktop.


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## Andylusion (Apr 4, 2014)

MisterBeale said:


> http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2014/01/21/264571072/as-windows-xp-fades-away-will-its-users-stick-with-microsoft
> *As Windows XP Fades Away, Will Its Users Stick With Microsoft?*
> 
> 
> ...



I'm a bit surprised that the Economist would say such a thing about planned obsolescence.    At least this particular writer doesn't seem to understand it.

Operating systems are huge.  They have millions of lines of code.  And one of the big issues with bugs and vulnerabilities, is that with every new patch and upgrade, one fix, can cause other bugs in those millions of lines of code.

I once was an aspiring programmer, and had to debug software, and it really is insane.    If a large bit of software was a patient at a doctors office, fixing software bugs would be like putting a bandaid on a toe that has a cut, and then suddenly the patients ear stopped hearing.

And as newer software is made for the newer operating systems (Windows 7 or Window 8), that software tends to have more problems operating on the older system, resulting in people complaining about more bugs.

At some point.... the company is spending more money trying to duct tape and bungie cord an old obsolete system that they are not making money on, and they simply have to let that old system go.    It's costing the company more resources to maintain, than it is worth it to maintain.

I'm not convinced that 13 years of life is all that bad.   It certainly has outlasted most automobiles, that cost several times as much to purchase.

Certainly you don't see Ford or Toyota building the exact same car for 13 years straight.    At some point you have to cut ties, and move on to better designs and technology.  You can't just sit there still supporting XP for another 20 years.

Wouldn't we even WANT Microsoft to invest more of their resources into something newer and better?

I will say that Microsoft does in fact do things unnecessarily to push people onto the new operating systems.   Again, it's partially because they want to sell more copies of the new stuff.... obviously....   but it's also because people calling in with problems, and complaining about issues with XP, is a cost to the company.    If everyone moved on from XP, then they wouldn't have so many phone calls about XP (obviously), and that would save them money.

However... the fact is, there is no real alternative.   Yes you have some Linux geeks out there, and that's fine.  I'm for that actually.  I would love it if Linux would take over the world..... but the fact is, it's not going to happen.  At least not in the foreseeable future.     I've installed Linux myself, and it's nifty... it's neat....   but it's not userfriendly, not by a long shot, and if someone doesn't have a geek core to them, Linux would be extremely frustrating and tiresome.   Some of the most simple functions, like simply installing a basic free-ware game, is frustrating and bothersome.   That's not an alternative to Windows.   I wish, but it's not.


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## Iceweasel (Apr 5, 2014)

Androw said:


> However... the fact is, there is no real alternative.   Yes you have some Linux geeks out there, and that's fine.  I'm for that actually.  I would love it if Linux would take over the world..... but the fact is, it's not going to happen.  At least not in the foreseeable future.     I've installed Linux myself, and it's nifty... it's neat....   but it's not userfriendly, not by a long shot, and if someone doesn't have a geek core to them, Linux would be extremely frustrating and tiresome.   Some of the most simple functions, like simply installing a basic free-ware game, is frustrating and bothersome.   That's not an alternative to Windows.   I wish, but it's not.


I think the main problem with Windows is the registry. It's massive, resource hungry and takes a long time to load. It's not needed in OSX or Linux so clearly there's a way to have an OS without all that. Linux boots in about a half minute. Less if you have a streamlined setup. It's not a gamer's machine but Android runs them well. BTW, Google developers use a modified Linux Mint to develope Android. Linux can and does run games well but the money isn't there since it's open source so game makers aren't going there, there are few choices there but it's not the OS's shortcoming.

As far as installing software, I don't know what you mean. I open the software manager, click on the one I'm interested in and the really big ones take a couple of minutes. I then open the program and use it. No registry updating, rebooting or fuss about it.


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## iamwhatiseem (Apr 5, 2014)

Androw said:


> MisterBeale said:
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> 
> > http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2014/01/21/264571072/as-windows-xp-fades-away-will-its-users-stick-with-microsoft
> ...



Well there you go...sorry, this will be rude but that is a whole lot of horseshit.
Linux is not user friendly?? And Windows 8 is??
That is hilarious.
Linux is a perfect system for simple users, I have set up a mint desktop for a lot of folks and they never want to go back to Windows. The "difficulty" in Linux, and it really is not that difficult anymore, is setting up the restricted codecs and proprietary drivers...which...wait for it...takes about 3 minutes. And your done.
  You can always tell when a person badmouths Linux that has no idea what they are talking about. And you are one of them.
 Linux used to be hard. It use to take hours and hours of hacking to get a system correctly setup. Now - about 3 or 4 minutes.


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## Andylusion (Apr 5, 2014)

iamwhatiseem said:


> Androw said:
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> > MisterBeale said:
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I'm sorry you are brainless idiot.   I told you... I have linux dumbass.   It's not that easy.   You are stupid and wrong.   You can always tell when you are talking to a linux cult fool, and you are most certainly one of them.

If you have your head shoved so far up your own linux arrogance, that you think it is just as easy, then you are too stupid to be on this forum.  Get lost.


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## iamwhatiseem (Apr 5, 2014)

Androw said:


> iamwhatiseem said:
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> > Androw said:
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You say it is hard to setup Linux, I say it is easy...and you say* I *am stupid? 
And the fact you resort to name calling, specifically "linux cult fool" - goes to you are a Microsoft fanboy. You guys are easy to see. "Oh...Linux is sooo hard...and...and..." 
Anyone who has any experience in today's popular distros knows that it is anything but hard. In fact, I would say it is harder to install Windows than Linux...and takes 8 times as long to boot. If people had to install Windows from scratch, they would be saying the same thing. A Pre-configured linux system is no different than a PC on Windows.


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## namvet (Apr 5, 2014)

got an ATM card???

Banks everywhere are in a race against time to upgrade their ATMs before they become hot targets for hackers.

link


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## Iceweasel (Apr 5, 2014)

namvet said:


> got an ATM card???
> 
> Banks everywhere are in a race against time to upgrade their ATMs before they become hot targets for hackers.
> 
> link


They've been using XP? Now I'm ascared to use the ATM. Linux was designed as a multiple user secure platform, plus it's free. I can't believe the cheap bastards were paying Microsoft.


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## waltky (Apr 6, 2014)

possum workin' on installin' Linux on Granny's `puter...

*Windows XP fans left on their own to fend off hackers*
_Mon, Apr 07, 2014 - People clinging to Microsoft&#8217;s aging Windows XP operating system will be left to fend off cyber criminals by themselves tomorrow._


> Tomorrow, the US software colossus will stop patching newly found security holes in Windows XP code that hackers could exploit to slip into computers.  Despite Microsoft&#8217;s long-heralded plan to stop &#8220;supporting&#8221; the nearly 13-year-old operating system, it still powers from 20 to 30 percent of Windows machines around the world, according to industry estimates.  &#8220;I am sure you have everything from police departments to banks to legal offices to restaurants,&#8221; Trustwave director Christopher Pogue said. &#8220;Think of a business and they probably run XP; I would say everyone is in equal danger.&#8221;
> 
> US-based Trustwave specializes in helping businesses fight cyber crime.  Microsoft support entails regular security updates, but when it stops issuing patches to defend against freshly revealed hacker tactics aimed at XP, those using the operating system will need to enlist their own software wizards or live with mounting threats.  Hackers might already know of new ways to break into XP-powered computers, but could be waiting until after tomorrow to attack because Microsoft will no longer step in to thwart them, security experts said.  &#8220;You are talking literally millions of computers systems that will cease to receive regular security updates,&#8221; Pogue said. &#8220;That is obviously causing a panic because of new vulnerabilities that will be introduced.&#8221;
> 
> ...


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## bianco (Apr 7, 2014)

Now I have to learn how to use Windows 8...baaah!
My friend says it's a nightmare.


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## Politico (Apr 7, 2014)

No you don't. They are releasing a new update that will allow you to bring back the classic windows all us sane people use.


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## Chuckt (Apr 8, 2014)

bianco said:


> Now I have to learn how to use Windows 8...baaah!
> My friend says it's a nightmare.



Some of us can walk you through it.  It is only a nightmare because it is different.  Once you learn it, it is easy.  You can even buy or get a free start menu like Windows 8 for the times you are lost.

You actually don't have to upgrade if XP is working well enough for you.


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## Darkwind (Apr 8, 2014)

Chuckt said:


> bianco said:
> 
> 
> > Now I have to learn how to use Windows 8...baaah!
> ...


I've found that Win8 is a breeze to use.  Whoever said that they can't find anything in Win8 must not know how to type, or spell.

All you have to do is type the first two or three letters of the program and bam, its right there.  You don't have to click run, you don't have search for an icon.  Simply start typing.  Now, if you are on the desktop and have used windows 7, then you'll know exactly were everything is.  The only change is that there is no start button to launch a menu list.  Easy to get around because you don't need the list.  One keystroke on the windows key brings up the main tile screen and you are back to just typing the programs name.  Same for the control panel, printer setup, any program that can be launched.  The tiles are nothing but a favorites list of programs.  You type the name, right click the program and pin it to the start menu.  Viola, a new tile.  Click and drag to put it where you want it.  

Click the down arrow on the main screen and an icon list of every installed program is shown.  The Metro platform is exactly like the tablet and phone.  If you can't operate your phone, you shouldn't be on a computer and you should just sit quietly until its your time to die.

Windows is designed to be easy and work right out of the fucking box.  No other operating system does that and is as user friendly as Windows.


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## Iceweasel (Apr 8, 2014)

Darkwind said:


> Windows is designed to be easy and work right out of the fucking box.  No other operating system does that and is as user friendly as Windows.


Ubuntu has Unity by default, which can be changed to numerous shells, or Gnome 3 shell, which is similar (easier to me). You can click the icon or type a few letters to find it. OSX is super easy. Are you familiar with other modern operating systems?


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## Chuckt (Apr 9, 2014)

You can all download Linux Mint to a thumb drive and try it without changing your operating system.  You can try it for a while without changing your computer.

Why Linux Mint is a worthwhile Windows XP replacement | ZDNet



> Second, Mint is free and even the latest version, Mint 16 Petra, can work on almost any XP system you already have in house. All Linux Mint needs to run is an x86 processor; 512 MBs of RAM (albeit you'll be happier with 1GB); 5 GBs of disk space; a graphics card that can handle 800×600 resolution; and a CD/DVD drive or USB port. That's it.
> 
> Next, you don't have to commit to Mint. You can try it before installing it by using a live USB thumb-drive.
> 
> To do this, you just need to download Mint and install it on an USB drive with at least 8GBs of room. With that drive, you can boot your XP box to Mint and give it a try without making any permanent changes to your PC.



See the above link for more information.


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## Andylusion (Apr 18, 2014)

Iceweasel said:


> Darkwind said:
> 
> 
> > Windows is designed to be easy and work right out of the fucking box.  No other operating system does that and is as user friendly as Windows.
> ...



I tried Ubuntu a while back, about a year ago, and installing stuff on it was a nightmare.

It seems to me... and I could be wrong... that when people say "Linux (or whatever version) is just as simple to use", they seem to be implying that people only want to use e-mail, and a web browser.

Which yeah, if you only use default programs, then Ubuntu and just about any Linux system is simple and easy to use.     Why not have a Chrome book then?   For $100, a fully internet functional system.

But the moment you step outside the Linux box of pre-installed programs, life gets difficult fast.

Again, I have Puppy Linux Legacy OS 2, installed on my Pent 3 Laptop.  I love it!   I really do.   It runs very fast, does everything I want, runs a bunch of vintage games, plays movies and youtube, and netflix and so on....  great!

But I am under no illusion that it's 'user-friendly'.   Please.   Just connecting the Wifi would drive nearly anyone without a degree in Nerdology nuts.

I do hope that at some point, a single unified Linux platform will take a dominating position, and gain enough programming support to become user-friendly enough to unseat Windows.

What a lot of open source Linux advocates fail to grasp, is it is exactly that open source aspect, that is hindering Linux.

If you were to have all of those millions of programmers around the world, focusing their talents on a single unified Linux distribution, you could easily, within a years time, have a version of Linux, that completely ended the dominance of Windows.

List of Linux distributions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But instead there are thousands of distributions.  Each one, with their own little group of supporting programmers.   With such massively diffused effort, it's no wonder that a company focusing on a single package, has easily held off free alternatives.

Even Ubuntu itself, has dozens on dozens of distributions.   If all those programmers had focused their ability and talents on one single Ubuntu operating system package, it would easily be replacing Windows by now.   Instead, we have dozens dozens of partially user friendly, 'almost there' options. 

*I hate Windows.   But the fact is, it is the best of bad options.*

Mac OS X was a great hope for me.  I had hoped that Mac OS having a basis in FreeBSD, would cause a boost in Linux programming.   I have not been able to see that this has happened.   Apple successfully gained enough traction with it's proprietary APIs, that most still program exclusively for Mac OS X.

Even though Linux programs can generally be recompiled with little effort to run on Macs, the reverse is not true.   But few bother to use Linux programs on a Mac, preferring native Mac programs.

I think Apple simply split the branch too far from the tree, to get the inter-community cross programming support I had hoped to see.  Disappointing, but not entirely unexpected.    Right now, Apple has nothing really, outside of it's unique user interface and software.

They could not have let their metaphoric software Apple fall close to the open source tree.   It would have been the death of them.

Nevertheless, Linux will always have a bright future of some sort.  But whether that bright future includes mainstream home user computers..... hard to say.


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## waltky (Apr 19, 2014)

Chuckt wrote: _You actually don't have to upgrade if XP is working well enough for you._

Will it guard against Heartbleed...

... or any other future viruses?


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## Politico (Apr 19, 2014)

No. None of them can if you don't watch where you go.


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## Iceweasel (Apr 19, 2014)

Androw said:


> Iceweasel said:
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> > Darkwind said:
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I've installed about 15 different distros and installing software was always done with one mouse click. If you want something not in the supported repository it is more complicated. I've done it but had to look online for instructions and just cut and pasted them into the terminal.


> It seems to me... and I could be wrong... that when people say "Linux (or whatever version) is just as simple to use", they seem to be implying that people only want to use e-mail, and a web browser.
> 
> Which yeah, if you only use default programs, then Ubuntu and just about any Linux system is simple and easy to use.     Why not have a Chrome book then?   For $100, a fully internet functional system.


I don't follow you at all. You can install Ubuntu but can't click on one of the 65,000 packages and don't see anything but browsers and email programs? WTF? I do photo editing, Darktable is very good, on par with Lightroom or whatever the Adobe one is. I use Gimp, just about on par with Photoshop unless you want to do some high end prepress. I have a full suite of Libre Office, on par with Microsoft Office, I make my own invoices and estimates. I scan documents and edit them if necessary. Import and store photos and video. Watch HD movies. I use MyPaint for digital paint with a Wacom tablet, for which there is no native equivalent in the Mac/PC world, although there are older versions available. The open source stuff comes out for Linux first and runs best in that environment. 

Most of that came pre-installed with my distro, which is typical and installation for anything I've added only took about 3 minutes with nothing but a mouse click. 

I do have XP and had to run it to install Garmin software. I had forgotten the length of time involved and rebooting. It was like going back in time a few decades. 


> But the moment you step outside the Linux box of pre-installed programs, life gets difficult fast.
> 
> Again, I have Puppy Linux Legacy OS 2, installed on my Pent 3 Laptop.  I love it!   I really do.   It runs very fast, does everything I want, runs a bunch of vintage games, plays movies and youtube, and netflix and so on....  great!
> 
> But I am under no illusion that it's 'user-friendly'.   Please.   Just connecting the Wifi would drive nearly anyone without a degree in Nerdology nuts.


I don't have wifi on this machine but the network setup automatically on install.  You can search for instructions but your hardware may not be compatible, even so it might be doable.  


> I do hope that at some point, a single unified Linux platform will take a dominating position, and gain enough programming support to become user-friendly enough to unseat Windows.
> 
> What a lot of open source Linux advocates fail to grasp, is it is exactly that open source aspect, that is hindering Linux.
> 
> ...


I've never been one to follow the mainstream but there are commercial distros, Red Hat is the big one I believe. It's more for business though since you can get a freeby for most things. All I know is that I'm saving a fortune in software and upgrade costs, have no anti-virus software or maintenance fees. 

Yes, they could use some more commercially produced applications, which would be easier and cheaper to produce and I've seen some in-roads but it will take more users to make it worth while. I agree with that but don't share your install experience. Your computer must not be Linux friendly.


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## Missourian (Apr 19, 2014)

Switch to windows 8.1 when I got a new laptop.

I was a diehard XPer,  resisting any upgrade...but...

Windows 8 ain't so bad,  once you learn it's idiosyncrasies.

Six months in and I don't miss XP at all.


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## Andylusion (Apr 19, 2014)

Iceweasel said:


> I've installed about 15 different distros and installing software was always done with one mouse click. If you want something not in the supported repository it is more complicated. I've done it but had to look online for instructions and just cut and pasted them into the terminal.



Do you think the average user is going to know what the different 'distros' are?   Are they going to know where to look, or even what those instructions are?  I don't think so.



> I don't follow you at all. You can install Ubuntu but can't click on one of the 65,000 packages and don't see anything but browsers and email programs? WTF? I do photo editing, Darktable is very good, on par with Lightroom or whatever the Adobe one is. I use Gimp, just about on par with Photoshop unless you want to do some high end prepress. I have a full suite of Libre Office, on par with Microsoft Office, I make my own invoices and estimates. I scan documents and edit them if necessary. Import and store photos and video. Watch HD movies. I use MyPaint for digital paint with a Wacom tablet, for which there is no native equivalent in the Mac/PC world, although there are older versions available. The open source stuff comes out for Linux first and runs best in that environment.



Yes I would imagine that it would come out for Linux first.    Well, perhaps things have improved drastically, or perhaps I picked a bad distro of Ubuntu that was difficult to use.     Of course that alone would illustrate my point.    If I can pick out the one 'not-so-easy' distro, what chance does the average user have?



> I do have XP and had to run it to install Garmin software. I had forgotten the length of time involved and rebooting. It was like going back in time a few decades.



Ok, then again I must have picked a bad distro of Ubuntu, because it booted slower than Windows.   In fact, much slower.   So you figured out which distro is great and awesome.  Wonderful.   What do you expect from average users?



> I don't have wifi on this machine but the network setup automatically on install.  You can search for instructions but your hardware may not be compatible, even so it might be doable.



Case and point.



> I've never been one to follow the mainstream but there are commercial distros, Red Hat is the big one I believe. It's more for business though since you can get a freeby for most things. All I know is that I'm saving a fortune in software and upgrade costs, have no anti-virus software or maintenance fees.
> 
> Yes, they could use some more commercially produced applications, which would be easier and cheaper to produce and I've seen some in-roads but it will take more users to make it worth while. I agree with that but don't share your install experience. Your computer must not be Linux friendly.



I'm all in favor of Red Hat.   Great company, good people there.  I'm a big fan of their success.

But it is, as you said.  They are geared towards corporate application, which of course is their bread and butter.

Also, you are absolutely right!  You *ARE* saving tons and tons and tons of money in software upgrade costs, and of course the lack of any real virus threat is worth thousands.

I worked in IT, and I can tell you it is the most terrible feeling being called to a customer site to examine a computer that stopped functioning right, and find that the hard drive was wiped by a virus.   And then.... you have to turn around and talk to the customer and explain that everything on their computer is blank and gone....     I'll tell you, that for me was a BAD DAY.   Here they are paying you to 'fix it', and all you can say to them is "uh... your screwed".

So yeah, I am totally with you on that one for sure.      That's why I never have ANYTHING of real value on my windows machine.  Everything mission critical, I do on my Mac.   In 20 years of using Apples, I have yet to lose a single important file.

Linux is the same.   Very much virus proof.

You don't have to preach the virtues of Linux, or pretty much any alternative to Microsoft, to me.  I'm singing in the choir behind you.   Totally in favor of a completely take over by better alternatives.

My only beef, it's just not as userfriendly.    Until it is so simple, that people don't have to wade through millions of different distros, until they don't have to figure out what "hda1/dev" means, or search the internet for command line instructions for setting up something, or searching hardware compatibility lists to see if their box is "linux friendly"....   as much as I would love to see a Linux with a 30% to 50% market share.... it's not going to happen.

I'd love to see it though.   I hope it happens in my life time.  Who knows.

I will say that your enthusiasm, has convinced me to check out Ubuntu again.   I will try it again.


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## percysunshine (Apr 19, 2014)

So when will 'Windows 9' be rolled out?


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## Iceweasel (Apr 19, 2014)

Androw said:


> Do you think the average user is going to know what the different 'distros' are?   Are they going to know where to look, or even what those instructions are?  I don't think so.


If they do any research they will find out Ubuntu and Mint are the top dogs. Ubuntu lost many due to the Unity interface, although it can be changed. Mint is more traditional and seems a bit more polished to me.


> Yes I would imagine that it would come out for Linux first.    Well, perhaps things have improved drastically, or perhaps I picked a bad distro of Ubuntu that was difficult to use.     Of course that alone would illustrate my point.    If I can pick out the one 'not-so-easy' distro, what chance does the average user have?


Something was wrong with the download or there was a hardware comparability issue. I've installed numerous Ubuntu and Mint distros plus a few others. They aren't different versions as much as newer versions, unless you go to an alternative  XFCE, Debian, KDE, etc. distro. They typically come out every 6 months unless you go for the LTS (long term support) which is every 3 or 5 years, I forget. That can be confusing but there is a lot online that describes them. Hardware and memory is a consideration, some are very basic, some very feature laden. 

I'm on a 8+ year old AMD machine and the newer stuff is too much for it.
Also, Ubuntu and Mint and the more popular releases are based on Debian unstable. Meaning not thoroughly tested. I've decided on Debian stable for my main use and some applications are older. But Debian is not for the novice, it isn't as user friendly to set up, no question. Then there's Debian experimental if life is too boring. I use mine in business so stability is paramount. But you can install other versions of whatever, I have two others plus XP.


> I'm all in favor of Red Hat.   Great company, good people there.  I'm a big fan of their success.
> 
> But it is, as you said.  They are geared towards corporate application, which of course is their bread and butter.
> 
> ...


I didn't have anti-virus programs on my Macs and had no problems. As mentioned by someone else, you can burn a DVD or stick and test a few versions out with no install. I would try Mint as well, I don't even know what version they are up to. Ubuntu's Unity dashboard is too clunky for me. Although you can log back in with a different desktop environment. I tell people on of the advantages of Linux is it's highly customizable and one of the disadvantages is that it's highly customizable.


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## Andylusion (Apr 19, 2014)

Iceweasel said:


> Androw said:
> 
> 
> > Do you think the average user is going to know what the different 'distros' are?   Are they going to know where to look, or even what those instructions are?  I don't think so.
> ...



Excellent.   Question:  What work applications are you using it for?   Or more to the point, what is it that you do?  What job is this being used for?


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## Iceweasel (Apr 19, 2014)

Androw said:


> Excellent.   Question:  What work applications are you using it for?   Or more to the point, what is it that you do?  What job is this being used for?


I have a website for gay midget porn.

Just kidding, I'm a general contractor so the office stuff is billing and such. The photos and painting are hobbies and hope to make a few bucks on it someday.


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## Chuckt (Apr 19, 2014)

Missourian said:


> Switch to windows 8.1 when I got a new laptop.
> 
> I was a diehard XPer,  resisting any upgrade...but...
> 
> ...



If it wasn't for the tile screen which I don't have Windows 8 booting to, I think that no geek could possibly love Windows 8.


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## Politico (Apr 20, 2014)

You are right. They don't.


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## Mushroom (Apr 25, 2014)

Androw said:


> Wouldn't we even WANT Microsoft to invest more of their resources into something newer and better?



I simply can't understand why anybody would even want to still use XP anymore.  Unless they are still using some antique 1 GHz system they bought 10 years ago.

Out of all the operating systems I ever used, XP was probably the one I used the least amount of time.  2004-2007, around 3 years.  And I only moved from Win2K because SP2 fixed a lot of issues I saw in the OS.

And I dumped it in 2007 and moved to Vista.  Why?  Because I had this nice new dual processor 64 bit processor, and giving it a lobotomy by using a 32 bit OS seemed stupid.

And if people think moving to OSX is a solution, think again.  OSX 10.6 "Snow Leopard" was released in 2009, and all support was killed last year, only 4 years after release.


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## Andylusion (Apr 25, 2014)

Mushroom said:


> Androw said:
> 
> 
> > Wouldn't we even WANT Microsoft to invest more of their resources into something newer and better?
> ...



That's actually not all that big of a deal.   The upgrade from 10.6 to any of the newer system is fairly minor on the front end.   Meaning it doesn't take a complete re-learning how to use the system.     Most of the noticeable upgrades were faster, better written software, and a few additional features.

That's my key beef with Microsoft upgrades, is that every other new version, requires you to completely relearn every single aspect of the system.

As for the money aspect, that's also not nearly as problematic.  Microsoft upgrade costs, are horrendous.     Mac OS X.... not so much.

Apple offered Snow Leopard for free to any OSX user.   I paid zero for Snow Leopard, except shipping cost of $9.99.  Mailed it to my house.

Then for me to upgrade from 10.6 to 10.8: "Mountain Lion", was an easy $19.99.   And the latest Version 10.9: "Mavericks" was also free.

FYI, Snow Leopard was the last hard copy sold software.  That's why it had to be mailed.   All others are online downloadable.

Now $30 is for me, extremely reasonable price for the operating system.   So lack of support for 10.6, when the cost to update is so cheap, is not really a problem in my book.   It's not like Windows which costs $120 to upgrade.


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## Mushroom (Apr 25, 2014)

Androw said:


> That's actually not all that big of a deal.   The upgrade from 10.6 to any of the newer system is fairly minor on the front end.   Meaning it doesn't take a complete re-learning how to use the system.     Most of the noticeable upgrades were faster, better written software, and a few additional features.
> 
> That's my key beef with Microsoft upgrades, is that every other new version, requires you to completely relearn every single aspect of the system.



Well, sorry if you are barking up the wrong tree here.

I have been using the "Mac OS" since before there was a Macintosh.  In other words since LisaOS.

And I have used every iteration of DOS since 3.3 and Windows since 1.02R.

I have learned more operating systems over the years then I could ever possibly remember.  And with only 1 or 2 exceptions I never had a problem going from one version of Windows to another.  And of all of those, 8 is the only one I refuse to ever go to at this time.

And in case you did not know, every other version but 8 had the capability to easily use the old interface.  Heck, I once got paid by a law office to convert all of their Windows 95 machines to use Program Manager (it was built in, just not the default).  And sure enough, 3 months later I was hired again to come back and put them all back to the default user interface.  You can set up XP to behave like 98, and Vista to behave like XP.

For me, the effort with OSX is a real pain in the butt.  Every other time my Mac updates, it breaks at least 2 or 3 key programs I need to use.  Especially the USB to Serial Port drivers and software, as well as others like IPSEC and my Virtual Machines.

I have rebuilt my Ubuntu VMs so often I can do it in my sleep now.  And I find myself doing more and more in VM because at least things work there still, where they no longer work in OSX.

And if you think Mac is easy to change, I can only guess you never used any of the System OSs they made.  Those were real nightmares.


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## AquaAthena (Apr 25, 2014)

I loved my XP and my Vista works flawlessly, but will only be supported my MS through 2017 so yesterday I ordered a Dell Home Premium Tower, WINDOWS 7....and will connect my keyboard, HD 20 inch monitor and my Z Cinema Logitech speakers to it. MS will support W-7 through 2020. 

Received my new Toshiba Chromebook yesterday.  Life is ***good!***


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## Andylusion (Apr 25, 2014)

Mushroom said:


> Androw said:
> 
> 
> > That's actually not all that big of a deal.   The upgrade from 10.6 to any of the newer system is fairly minor on the front end.   Meaning it doesn't take a complete re-learning how to use the system.     Most of the noticeable upgrades were faster, better written software, and a few additional features.
> ...



I guess I'm more of the, I just want it to work, belief system.   I don't want to have to install an operating system, just to turn around and try and set it up to work like something else.

While there is something to be said for having that ability, the problem then becomes that if you have some funky personalized system, then when others sit down at your computer, they are all confused and mystified by it, and equally if you sit down a someone with the default interface, you end up confused by it.

That's why a consistent user experience is useful.   That's also why I keep hoping for a more unified Linux system, so that every time I see a Linux machine somewhere, I don't have to relearn how to use it.

Granted I didn't start with Lisa, but I did cut my teeth on the Mac Plus.   I loved, and still love the original Mac OS.     I don't know how you and I got such vastly different experiences from the Mac OS systems, but that's just how life is, isn't it?

As for OS X, again, I can't complain.  I'm on 10.9 right now, and there is only one single thing I can even mention.   Apple's built in Mail program tends to crash once a month or two.   No idea why, and can't seem to fix it.   About every 6 weeks, all of sudden it will just 'pop' and gone.   Comes right back, no errors, no lost emails, nothing wrong... but that's strange.

Again, who knows how we have such different experiences.   But if Ubuntu works for you, great.  I'm all for it.  I hope that at some point a united linux distribution will take over the world (or at least a significant portion).   I think it would be good.


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## Mushroom (Apr 25, 2014)

Androw said:


> I guess I'm more of the, I just want it to work, belief system.   I don't want to have to install an operating system, just to turn around and try and set it up to work like something else.
> 
> While there is something to be said for having that ability, the problem then becomes that if you have some funky personalized system, then when others sit down at your computer, they are all confused and mystified by it, and equally if you sit down a someone with the default interface, you end up confused by it.
> 
> ...



Well, I actually run a great many different operating systems.

My desktop has 7, my laptop has Vista, my server has dual boot with Server 2012 and Mint Maya.  My work laptop has OSX Maverick, and I have other boxes in the garage that run anything from Win98 and XP to Win2K and one is actually still DOS 6 and Win 3.11.  And an Android phone and tablet.

And that is not counting my wife's systems, which are Android, XP, Vista, 7 and 8.

Ubuntu is what I work with primarily, but also Android, Chrome and Chromium.  But those are all on remote systems that I manage, they are not local to me.

And do not hold your breath on Linux ever standardizing.  It is fractured all over, and the community seems to like it that way.  Customizations is great for coders, but not so much for laymen.

But I also do not believe there is such a thing as a "best operating system".  Whatever a person likes, that is what is best for them.  And most of the time it is the software we run that matters much more then the operating system itself.


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## Ringel05 (Apr 25, 2014)

Mushroom said:


> Androw said:
> 
> 
> > I guess I'm more of the, I just want it to work, belief system.   I don't want to have to install an operating system, just to turn around and try and set it up to work like something else.
> ...



I run multiple OSs, liked XP, hated Vista, like Win7 and beta tested Win8 which I will never move to.  I use 7 for gaming and some other dedicated programs and Ubuntu or Mint for everything else.  Thinking about checking out RoboLinux and their StealthVM so I don't have to dual boot.  
Hated Unity when it first came out and switched over to Mint but eventually migrated back to Ubuntu as Unity became more polished.  As for Linux standardization it is slowly happening as Ubuntu and Mint work to become more user friendly, it's the purists who really create most of the issues as they decry and demean the direction the big two are going in.


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## beagle9 (Apr 26, 2014)

I'm still on Windows XP, but I don't use the computer for much other than here and some other minor activities. I don't do any banking on line or use my computer in those ways, and I have Norton 360 to keep viruses in check. Do I need to do anything else maybe ? Wiped the drive not long ago and reloaded.  This old Dell machine runs fast and smooth still. It has an awesome sound card in it, and I can play CD's with surround sound, and the video quality is also awesome. My grandkids are in awe when watching their favorite shows like Monsters Ink and such on here. I know I need to upgrade soon, but man this thing still rocks.


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## Andylusion (Apr 26, 2014)

Mushroom said:


> Androw said:
> 
> 
> > I guess I'm more of the, I just want it to work, belief system.   I don't want to have to install an operating system, just to turn around and try and set it up to work like something else.
> ...



I thought I was a computer nerdologist....  you take the cake.  What the heck do you need all those different systems for?   Are you starting an operating system museum or something?   OS protection agency?


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## waltky (Apr 27, 2014)

Non-XP users might want to visit the MS Windows update site to make sure you get the latest update...

*Microsoft rushes to fix browser after attacks; no fix for XP users*
_27 Apr.`14  - Microsoft Corp is rushing to fix a bug in its widely used Internet Explorer web browser after a computer security firm disclosed the flaw over the weekend, saying hackers have already exploited it in attacks on some U.S. companies._


> PCs running Windows XP will not receive any updates fixing that bug when they are released, however, because Microsoft stopped supporting the 13-year-old operating system earlier this month. *Security firms estimate that between 15 and 25 percent of the world's PCs still run Windows XP.*  Microsoft disclosed on Saturday its plans to fix the bug in an advisory to its customers posted on its security website, which it said is present in Internet Explorer versions 6 to 11. Those versions dominate desktop browsing, accounting for 55 percent of the PC browser market, according to tech research firm NetMarketShare.
> 
> Cybersecurity software maker FireEye Inc said that a sophisticated group of hackers have been exploiting the bug in a campaign dubbed "Operation Clandestine Fox."  FireEye, whose Mandiant division helps companies respond to cyber attacks, declined to name specific victims or identify the group of hackers, saying that an investigation into the matter is still active.  "It's a campaign of targeted attacks seemingly against U.S.-based firms, currently tied to defense and financial sectors," FireEye spokesman Vitor De Souza said via email. "It's unclear what the motives of this attack group are, at this point. It appears to be broad-spectrum intel gathering."
> 
> ...


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## Mushroom (Apr 28, 2014)

Androw said:


> I thought I was a computer nerdologist....  you take the cake.  What the heck do you need all those different systems for?   Are you starting an operating system museum or something?   OS protection agency?



ROFL!

Well, my main home systems is 7.  My laptop which I primarily only use on drill weekends is Visa.  My server (Dual opteron 1U I picked up for $50 last year) bounces between 2012 and Mint, depending on what I do.  The Mac/Ubuntu/Chrome/Chromium is what I use at work.

For the others, those generally sit in my garage unless I want to do some legacy stuff.


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## Bleipriester (May 30, 2014)

Anybody complaining of Windows 8 doesn´t know the 3rd party tools which allow users to customize Windows 8. I posted such tools here, but they earn distrust.

This forum is good, developers often publish their work here:
Windows 8 - MSFN Forum


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## Politico (May 31, 2014)

Preyty much everyone is. Windows 8 is crap.


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## Iceweasel (May 31, 2014)

Bleipriester said:


> Anybody complaining of Windows 8 doesn´t know the 3rd party tools which allow users to customize Windows 8. I posted such tools here, but they earn distrust.


You need third party software to customize it?


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## Andylusion (May 31, 2014)

Bleipriester said:


> Anybody complaining of Windows 8 doesn´t know the 3rd party tools which allow users to customize Windows 8. I posted such tools here, but they earn distrust.
> 
> This forum is good, developers often publish their work here:
> Windows 8 - MSFN Forum



Well again... if you are into that kind of stuff, more power to you.   My view is, if you need tools to customize the system that it doesn't drive you nutz, then it's a bad system.

Customization should be simply that... the ability to make the system more personalized to your taste... not to make it usable and non-frustrating.

If you bought yourself a Chevy, and then needed to spend $10K in upgrades so that you didn't hate it.... you wouldn't be talking about how great Chevy was, you would buy a better car to begin with.

The only difference here is, the cost isn't that high, and alternatives are few and far between.


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## Synthaholic (May 31, 2014)

martybegan said:


> *Simple solution. If Microsoft abandons support, it abandons ownership protection.* Someone else is now free to take up the slack. I'm sure current XP users would cough up $1-$2 per patch for "support" if they really wanted to keep using the system.



Did you just pull that out of your ass?  It's simple, alright.  Simple-minded.


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## Synthaholic (May 31, 2014)

I'm actually more pissed at all the companies who have stopped updating their drivers to work with Windows 7 or 8, FORCING me to keep one machine around that's running XP so that I can still use those devices.

Creative is a huge offender in that regard.


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## Andylusion (May 31, 2014)

Synthaholic said:


> I'm actually more pissed at all the companies who have stopped updating their drivers to work with Windows 7 or 8, FORCING me to keep one machine around that's running XP so that I can still use those devices.
> 
> Creative is a huge offender in that regard.



I had the same problem with my HP scanner/printer, which no longer made scanner drivers for my printer.    It was ridiculous because the printer wasn't all that old.  Nevertheless, since I rarely if ever needed to scan anything, I never bothered to replace it with a newer model.

Then during a free upgrade of Mac OS X, the preview program standard with Mac OS X, had generic scanner drivers that came with the system, and it scans perfectly now, after being un-usable for years.   I wish I had known, and I would have upgraded my system a long time ago.  (I rarely upgrade unless I have a specific reason to).


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## Bleipriester (Jun 1, 2014)

Politico said:


> Preyty much everyone is. Windows 8 is crap.


Once you have your personal solution to deal with the Modern UI, its nice.


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## Politico (Jun 1, 2014)

No one should have to come up with one. That is why they are abandoning it in droves and Microdumbsoft is moving away from it.


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## Bleipriester (Jun 1, 2014)

Right, but theres a simple solution called startisback. A simple registry entry applied prior to the installation of SIB solves a major problem, if you are using Windows 8.1. Startisback does not only add a startmenu, it even does it better then older Windows versions and also deals with Windows 8´s corner annoyances if that is the wish of the user.

Dare it, create a regfile with following content and apply it. Therefor open Edior, copy the content inside and save as "sib.reg" with quotes. sib is just a placeholder for the name you wish to give it but it needs to end with .reg of course.





			
				regfile said:
			
		

> Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00
> 
> [HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\StartIsBack\License]
> "ActivationData"=hex:11,11,11,11,11,11,11,11,11,11,11,11,11,11,11,11,11,11,11,\
> ...


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