# Honest men and women can have honest differences of opinion...



## ding (Oct 25, 2016)

Hey Everyone,

My name is ding and I believe that honest men and women can have honest differences of opinion without having to act like jerks to each other.  I believe that growth filled communities should explore all sides of an issue to arrive at objective truth.


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## Ridgerunner (Oct 25, 2016)

ding     wish you the best of luck with getting some to listen to your opinion...


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## ding (Oct 25, 2016)

Thanks. Whether they do or don't is unimportant. My obligation is satisfied by providing the information. What they choose to do with it is up to them.


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## Ringel05 (Oct 25, 2016)

Hi, my name is dong and what the hell is a "growth filled community", a public pot farm?  A community suffering from an over abundance of black mold?  

Oh and welcome........


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## ding (Oct 25, 2016)

Thanks for that heartfelt welcome. A growth filled community is one that seeks to continuously improve.  Attributes would be order, harmony and respect.


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## Ringel05 (Oct 25, 2016)

ding said:


> Thanks for that heartfelt welcome. A growth filled community is one that seeks to continuously improve.  Attributes would be order, harmony and respect.


Oh, a fantasy......  Got it.


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## Skull Pilot (Oct 25, 2016)

ding said:


> Hey Everyone,
> 
> My name is ding and I believe that honest men and women can have honest differences of opinion without having to act like jerks to each other.  I believe that growth filled communities should explore all sides of an issue to arrive at objective truth.


Everybody lies therefore nobody is honest


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## ChrisL (Oct 25, 2016)

ding said:


> Hey Everyone,
> 
> My name is ding and I believe that honest men and women *can have honest differences of opinion without having to act like jerks to each other.*  I believe that growth filled communities should explore all sides of an issue to arrive at objective truth.



Welcome.  It's easy to say that but it's not so easy to do all the time.


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## ChrisL (Oct 25, 2016)

ding said:


> Thanks for that heartfelt welcome. A growth filled community is one that seeks to continuously improve.  Attributes would be order, harmony and respect.



You are at the WRONG place then.    You have no idea what you are in for.  Good luck to you!


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## Alex. (Oct 25, 2016)

Welcome Ding, I salute your optimistic perspective, but the ding with me is that no matter how I try someone always picks on someding I say and finds fault with it. That leads to more of a ding than I wanted to discuss to begin  with. I listen to Dong pretty much all the time and he has pointed out several dings that I should improve upon, first, being a speech impediment I have with the "th" sound I pronounce it like a "D" and I type the way I speak so there have been many dings that have misconstrued and lead to one ding or another.

In any event welcome and stick with your mentor Dong he is good people and if there is anyding I can help with please PM Dong he will let me know.


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## saveliberty (Oct 25, 2016)

ding said:


> Thanks. Whether they do or don't is unimportant. My obligation is satisfied by providing the information. What they choose to do with it is up to them.



If your looking for a truthful time saving idea here it is:






Insert ideas here ^


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## ding (Oct 25, 2016)

Skull Pilot said:


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It isn't hard to be objective.  Everyone can be objective. Just because they aren't always objective that doesn't mean they can't do it.   It's a choice.


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## ding (Oct 25, 2016)

Ringel05 said:


> ding said:
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No. It's not a fantasy.  You have a family, right?   You have friends too, right?  Those are communities.  You do it there, don't you?  Why can't you do it every where else?


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## ding (Oct 25, 2016)

ChrisL said:


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Thanks.  That is true.  It isn't easy.  It can be quite difficult sometimes. It's a choice.


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## ChrisL (Oct 25, 2016)

ding said:


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You need to visit the Flamer Zone.     All KINDS of people are posting on these message boards and not all are very "healthy" if you know what I mean.


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## ding (Oct 25, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> ding said:
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> > Thanks for that heartfelt welcome. A growth filled community is one that seeks to continuously improve.  Attributes would be order, harmony and respect.
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Maybe.  Maybe not. Time will tell.  Thanks.


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## Ringel05 (Oct 25, 2016)

ding said:


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Family, dysfunctional (both the wife's and mine), friends, strange like me........  Why can't it work on a bigger scale?  You are paying attention to election cycles ain'tcha, international affairs?  That should answer your question. 
Of course it can work to some degree in small, closed communities but on a larger scale......  That's a fantasy.


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## ding (Oct 25, 2016)

ChrisL said:


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My eyes are wide open.  I can't be harmed by what others think, say or do.  I can only be harmed by what I think, say or do.   I do appreciate the warming and advice though.  Thanks.


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## Ringel05 (Oct 25, 2016)

ChrisL said:


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Hey!!  I resemble that remark!!!!!


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## ding (Oct 25, 2016)

Ringel05 said:


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I'm sorry to hear that.   Election cycles? When did any thing they do actually make a difference in your day to day life?  Of course it can work on a bigger scale, it's just a sum of the parts.


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## ding (Oct 25, 2016)

saveliberty said:


> ding said:
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Thanks.  That's cute.


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## ding (Oct 25, 2016)

Alex. said:


> Welcome Ding, I salute your optimistic perspective, but the ding with me is that no matter how I try someone always picks on someding I say and finds fault with it. That leads to more of a ding than I wanted to discuss to begin  with. I listen to Dong pretty much all the time and he has pointed out several dings that I should improve upon, first, being a speech impediment I have with the "th" sound I pronounce it like a "D" and I type the way I speak so there have been many dings that have misconstrued and lead to one ding or another.
> 
> In any event welcome and stick with your mentor Dong he is good people and if there is anyding I can help with please PM Dong he will let me know.


Thanks.  That was pretty funny.  I can use all the laughs I can get.


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## Ringel05 (Oct 25, 2016)

ding said:


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Uuuummmmm, Obviously you're not a student of human nature.  Anyway this is a welcome thread not a discussion thread so again, welcome to the insane asylum and good luck......  You'll need it......


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## MisterBeale (Oct 25, 2016)

Ridgerunner said:


> ding     wish you the best of luck with getting some to listen to your opinion...
> 
> View attachment 95180


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## ding (Oct 25, 2016)

Ringel05 said:


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I can assure you that I am quite intimate with human nature.  Normalization of deviance is one of my favorite subjects.  Like I wrote before... thanks for your heartfelt welcome.


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## ding (Oct 25, 2016)

MisterBeale said:


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I know, right.


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## MisterBeale (Oct 25, 2016)

ding said:


> Hey Everyone,
> 
> My name is ding and I believe that honest men and women can have honest differences of opinion without having to act like jerks to each other.  I believe that growth filled communities should explore all sides of an issue to arrive at objective truth.



Good luck.


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## Pumpkin Row (Oct 25, 2016)

_Welcome to USMB, I hope you enjoy yourself, I suggest staying away from the Flame Zone. _

_Question; Political alignment? Who are you voting for, if at all?_


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## ding (Oct 25, 2016)

MisterBeale said:


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Thanks. I can use all the luck I can get.


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## ding (Oct 25, 2016)

Pumpkin Row said:


> _Welcome to USMB, I hope you enjoy yourself, I suggest staying away from the Flame Zone. _
> 
> _Question; Political alignment? Who are you voting for, if at all?_


I was thinking about writing in my name.  How many votes do you think ding will get?


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## Pumpkin Row (Oct 25, 2016)

ding said:


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_Likely none. If you're going to write in, I suggest writing in Limberbutt McCubbins. The time is meow._


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## MisterBeale (Oct 25, 2016)

I'm afraid not as many as the other ding-dongs will get. . . .


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## ChrisL (Oct 25, 2016)

Pumpkin Row said:


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## ChrisL (Oct 25, 2016)

See?  We have choices!


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## ding (Oct 25, 2016)

Pumpkin Row said:


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Well... I would get at least one more than none.  Maybe two if I can get my dead uncle to vote for me.


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## ding (Oct 25, 2016)

ChrisL said:


> See?  We have choices!


Yes.  No is a choice.


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## Pumpkin Row (Oct 25, 2016)

ding said:


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_You're not an establishment shill, nor are you voting for Hillary, so you likely couldn't get away with it~_


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## ding (Oct 25, 2016)

MisterBeale said:


> I'm afraid not as many as the other ding-dongs will get. . . .


Me too.


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## ding (Oct 25, 2016)

Pumpkin Row said:


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I was afraid of that.


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## Skull Pilot (Oct 25, 2016)

ding said:


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Objectivity has nothing to do with honesty
and I never said anyone can't be honest the fact is no one is honest whether they can be or not is irrelevant


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## OldLady (Oct 25, 2016)

Welcome Ding.  I fear you have made a large mistake, but if you start threads that don't bash Trump, Hillary, or the MSM,  I will be eternally grateful.  Just don't use too many big words


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## ding (Oct 25, 2016)

Skull Pilot said:


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Of course objectivity is related to honesty.  If you are objective about something then you don't rationalize being right when you are wrong.  Most lies are not outright lies.   Most lies are rationalizations. In other words they are lies that we tell ourselves.


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## ding (Oct 25, 2016)

OldLady said:


> Welcome Ding.  I fear you have made a large mistake, but if you start threads that don't bash Trump, Hillary, or the MSM,  I will be eternally grateful.  Just don't use too many big words


I'll try my best.


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## Dogmaphobe (Oct 25, 2016)

There are precious few honest people in a world where most people's understanding of politics runs no deeper than they're being a member of the good guy tribe and so they oppose everything about the bad guy tribe.


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## ding (Oct 25, 2016)

Dogmaphobe said:


> There are precious few honest people in a world where most people's understanding of politics runs no deeper than they're being a member of the good guy tribe and so they oppose everything about the bad guy tribe.


That's because they are not objective.  They reject anything that is contrary to their position. It's not so much that they believe in the people they support as it is they believe that they can't be wrong about them.


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## anotherlife (Oct 25, 2016)

Hi ding.  My name is dong.  And I am honest too.  I never lie.  I never lie especially to women.  Women are honest and always tell the truth in order to improve their relationships.


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## anotherlife (Oct 25, 2016)

ChrisL said:


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Is flames zone a website?  How good does your English have to be to participate there?


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## Ringel05 (Oct 25, 2016)

anotherlife said:


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Scroll down to the bottom of the forum categories - Flame Zone...........


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## Ringel05 (Oct 25, 2016)

ding said:


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My wife's background is deviant psychology, mine is history, sociology (specifically cultural anthropology) and psychology. 
Normalization of deviance........ interesting concept........  You are an optimist.........  Maybe......

It just occurred to me, wonder if that means deviant behavior correction (fixing deviant behavior) or normalizing deviance within cultures (acceptance of deviant behavior as normal)........ Uuummmmm........


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## saveliberty (Oct 25, 2016)

Ringel05 said:


> My wife's background is deviant psychology, mine is history, sociology (specifically cultural anthropology) and psychology.
> Normalization of deviance........ interesting concept........  You are an optimist.........



Are we going out three standard deviations?


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## Ringel05 (Oct 25, 2016)

saveliberty said:


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Great, I was just in the process of editing that post.......  Ya should have waited......


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## ding (Oct 25, 2016)

anotherlife said:


> Hi ding.  My name is dong.  And I am honest too.  I never lie.  I never lie especially to women.  Women are honest and always tell the truth in order to improve their relationships.


Justin B., is that you?  But seriously, I couldn't be happier for you, brother.


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## ding (Oct 25, 2016)

Ringel05 said:


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Based on what you just wrote, I don't believe you know what normalization of deviance is.


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## ding (Oct 25, 2016)

saveliberty said:


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That's not it either.  That's statistics.  Normalization of deviance is when one lowers a standard and then normalizes the deviance from the standard to the new lower standard, thus setting themselves up for predictable surprises.


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## anotherlife (Oct 25, 2016)

ding said:


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Sorry I am not, I am Justin C.  However if I study better next year, I may become Justin B ... Justin Case.


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## ding (Oct 25, 2016)

anotherlife said:


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Either way, I couldn't be happier for you.  Good luck with school.


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## Ringel05 (Oct 25, 2016)

ding said:


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That's because I'm looking at the word deviance from a human studies (psychology) standpoint where deviance is a behavioral (and in many cases) genetic personality malformation.


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## Unkotare (Oct 25, 2016)

ding said:


> Hey Everyone,
> 
> My name is ding and I believe that honest men and women can have honest differences of opinion without having to act like jerks to each other.  I believe that growth filled communities should explore all sides of an issue to arrive at objective truth.



Sophism


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## ding (Oct 25, 2016)

Unkotare said:


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How so?


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## Papageorgio (Oct 25, 2016)

ding said:


> Hey Everyone,
> 
> My name is ding and I believe that honest men and women can have honest differences of opinion without having to act like jerks to each other.  I believe that growth filled communities should explore all sides of an issue to arrive at objective truth.



Welcome


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## Yarddog (Oct 25, 2016)

ding said:


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Its just that not all people come here with the same purpose in mind,  a lot are not serious and others just want 
to unload on someone because of how their day went, or some are ego driven, of course then you do have the ones who like to share and receive information,  but it could be quite a mix of all those and other factors. Kind of like mixing the wrong types of fish in your fish tank though.... they might not achieve harmony when some like to bite 
the fins of the other ones though.


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## ding (Oct 25, 2016)

Yarddog said:


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It is all part of the conflict and confusion process of arriving at objective truth.  Diversity of thought is needed.  The beauty of it is that error cannot stand.  Eventually it will fail.  It is just a question of time.


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## Yarddog (Oct 25, 2016)

ding said:


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Well, welcome to the board!


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## saveliberty (Oct 26, 2016)

ding said:


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You can statistically move the bar as well.


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## saveliberty (Oct 26, 2016)

ding said:


> It is all part of the conflict and confusion process of arriving at objective truth.  Diversity of thought is needed.  The beauty of it is that error cannot stand.  Eventually it will fail.  It is just a question of time.



Unless extinction happens first.


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## Dogmaphobe (Oct 26, 2016)

Ringel05 said:


> That's because I'm looking at the word deviance from a human studies (psychology) standpoint where deviance is a behavioral (and in many cases) genetic personality malformation.



 .....or not a malformation at all, but merely the expression of an uncommon attribute. Heaven forbid we ever arrive at a time so totalitarian that a person cannot deviate from the norm. 

We are at once predisposed towards a herd instinct and the expression of individuality, and it is the tension between the two that matters.  At one extreme lies the sociopaths and at the other the cultists, neither of which are healthy.


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## Ringel05 (Oct 26, 2016)

Dogmaphobe said:


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I was referring to deviant psychology in relation to pathology.


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## Dogmaphobe (Oct 26, 2016)

Ringel05 said:


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 Yes, I know you were, but since the term in its broader sense involves behavior that might or might not be harmful, I find it important to distinguish between certain types of dysfunctional behavior and that which is merely outside the norm.

 Take homosexuality, for instance. Decades ago, psychologists considered it as deviant, but saner heads have prevailed over the years as the only reason it was considered such had to do with normative morality based upon a preconception that had nothing to do with the harm principle. As such, it falls under the purview of mores rather than morals. One could just as easily state that wearing white pumps after labor day is deviant based upon nothing deeper than it being a shared custom. 

  What I am trying to get at is the distinction between deviant in your clinical sense and deviant it its broader sense.


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## Ringel05 (Oct 26, 2016)

Dogmaphobe said:


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That's all a given and yes I'm fully aware of the broader applications in many areas of study/endeavour.  It was his phrase 'normalization of deviance' that first threw me.  From a psychological perspective, basing the focus on known deviant pathology (sociopath/psychopath/pedophilia/etc), I wasn't sure that he didn't mean accepting those behaviors as normal or attempting to "fix" those behaviors.


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## Dogmaphobe (Oct 26, 2016)

Ringel05 said:


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It threw me, too, as it suggests to me that the behavior in question is not really deviant from a clinical perspective, but merely that which has been reexamined by nature of its causing no harm or involving an actual pathology.


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## Unkotare (Oct 26, 2016)

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Actually, you can.


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## aaronleland (Oct 26, 2016)

Pumpkin Row said:


> _Welcome to USMB, I hope you enjoy yourself, I suggest staying away from the Flame Zone. _
> 
> _Question; Political alignment? Who are you voting for, if at all?_



The Flame Zone is the only place on this forum where people of differing political views actually get along, and joke around with each other. Of course you have the occasional nasty feud, but most of us are friends down there.


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## ding (Oct 26, 2016)

saveliberty said:


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Yeah, sure, but all that is saying is that one will accept the failures associated with accepting a lower standard.   In other words, they are acceptable losses.


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## ding (Oct 26, 2016)

Unkotare said:


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Not according to my beliefs.


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## ding (Oct 26, 2016)

Dogmaphobe said:


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Deviance: the fact or state of departing from usual or accepted standards


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## Unkotare (Oct 26, 2016)

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Your beliefs can bleed just like anyone else's.


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## ding (Oct 26, 2016)

Unkotare said:


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Everyone has got to die sooner or later.  What's the big deal?


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## Unkotare (Oct 26, 2016)

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Whistling past the graveyard fools no one, kid.


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## ding (Oct 26, 2016)

Unkotare said:


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I'm not trying to fool anyone.  I truly believe that only I can harm myself.  I am more than the sum of my parts.  Nothing you can do to me will diminish me whatsoever.  What part of that do you not understand?


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## emilynghiem (Oct 26, 2016)

ding said:


> Hey Everyone,
> 
> My name is ding and I believe that honest men and women can have honest differences of opinion without having to act like jerks to each other.  I believe that growth filled communities should explore all sides of an issue to arrive at objective truth.



Dear ding Not sure if honesty is the word to describe the people who can respect each other's beliefs and differences.
I find it is a factor of fear and unforgiveness being projected, where people with "scarcity mentality" resort to bullying by exclusion or coercion to defend themselves,
vs. faith that truth is the controlling force and exercise forgiveness and inclusion when dealing with people and different groups/beliefs

When people have faith that truth and justice prevail without needing to resort to force, bullying, abuse coercion oppression etc.
sure
that opens the door to people "feeling safe" to express themselves freely openly and honestly.

The link betwe en the two
is if people aren't fully aware of the fears and unforgiven issues behind their biases
then they project emotionally and don't include all others equally.

It's the fear and forgiveness factor that makes all the difference in the world.

If people are in denial, it's usually because they are afraid of someone or something
and not ready to face changing or confronting that issue.

You can be as honest as you can about this,
and if you are still not ready to forgive and receive change,
then it blocks and limits the interaction with others.

As long as you are forgiving and willing to work with others,
then even if you fall short in some areas, and aren't perfectly transparent open and honest,
you can still work with others, to the same extent they are willing to work with you, 
as long as you both allow each other the same
room for error and benefit of the doubt.

Overall I would agree that intellectual honesty
and awareness/understanding
goes hand in hand with being able to forgive and include other people regardless of 
differences and conflicting beliefs.

But I find it's the forgiveness factor vs the fear factor
that determines if people can interact inclusively and safely with each other.
Once the scarcity mentality, the competitive/combative defensiveness kicks in,
it's very hard to work through that and try to get to a safe place of mutual agreement and respect.
But that's part of the process also.

We all have to learn to navigate and manage this process
in order to rebuild working relationships, restore communities
and society, and create more effective sustainable solutions by collaborating
to capitalize on the best ideas, talents, models, and leaders from diverse backgrounds and sectors.

Whatever is standing in the way of that,
we need to work through anyway.
There are no shortcuts.
Nobody can do the work and fix our problems for us.
It will take all of us working together, delegating
different areas to different people and groups,
to solve all the world's problems with the given resources we have to work with.

Thanks for being here and sharing
and I hope you will see that your
participation and influence makes a difference.

Everyone here is a necessary piece of the puzzle
or else we wouldn't be here! Enjoy!


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## ding (Oct 26, 2016)

emilynghiem said:


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Honesty is achieved when one becomes objective and removes all concerns for self and has no preference for an outcome.  When one does that all fears melt away because they can't be wrong because they don't have a preference.


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## emilynghiem (Oct 26, 2016)

ding said:


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Well ding to be "honest" with you
I don't know anyone who can be completely objective and free of bias.
That's why we have to take turns, on who can best address which issues or conflicts in which cases.
We are not going to be fair in ALL cases.
Nobody is that perfect.

What we CAN be honest about is where we have biases and conflicts of interests/beliefs.
We may still not be able to "remove ourselves" enough to be equally objective.

We can be HONEST about our biases, and where we just can't ad dress something neutrally,
and be fair enough to ask someone else to step in and help balance it out where we are going to favor one view over another.

Nobody I know can defend protect and represent all people, views and groups equally in all situations.

As it is said in Christianity, only Jesus Christ is perfectly righteous
and every other human being falls short because of our biases from our experiences and perceptions that are all different.
Together we can cover all bases, but not any one of us alone.

Like you said, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.
To be made perfect means to be made whole.
When you add all humanity together,
then collectively, yes, we can universally represent all that is out there within human scope.

But not one of us can do it alone.
When we are as honest and transparent as possible,
we will have the honesty to admit where our biases and limitations are
and ask help of others to fill in those gaps.


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## ding (Oct 26, 2016)

emilynghiem said:


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Being objective isn't easy.  The key is to not have a preference for an outcome.  The more one does it, the better one gets at it.  So I do believe it is possible to be that way almost all of the time.  

I believe change occurs through concentric circles.  We emulate what we see.


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## emilynghiem (Oct 27, 2016)

ding said:


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Now you make two very good points here, ding
I like and align with how you describe objectivity as
"not having a preference for an outcome"
That is a VERY clear description, and I think this language
would be helpful in spelling out FORMAL agreements how
to deal with political beliefs and biases in public policy and process.

[Personally, I would specify the difference between
* having a bias/preference on an outcome
* letting that affect judgment, and especially imposing it through a public policy decision where other people are objecting
and DON'T have the same preference for that outcome

- just because we HAVE a preference, doesn't mean it has to be exerted with unequal influence on the final outcome affecting others
- just because we don't LET the preferences we have skew the outcome beyond what others consent to equally, given their own preferences.
doesn't mean we DON'T have a preference on the outcome and "that's why" we're able to do that.

In mediation, a successful solution tends to have these characteristics
* both sides acknowledge the final result is not the outcome they originally preferred, but at least it is equal
* they both see that between them and the other side, both sides had to stretch equally outside
of what they originally wanted and preferred, in order to give and take and wind up with something
they can both accept, that at least covers the most important issues they were concerned about and doesn't compromise that,
and that equally includes both sides interests as much as could be obtained given their differences
* they both AGREE and CHOOSE/ACCEPT this outcome freely by knowing it is the best and fairest that could be done,
where neither side feels the other is forcing them MORE into it any more than they are forcing the other side

So I would say we STILL keep our preferences on the outcome, and still prefer something else.
But we recognize the other people involved are having to adjust equally on THEIR side,
and we BOTH agree not to let that stand in the way of working and including
what the OTHER people ALSO prefer as the outcome, equally as our own preferences.

I see this with prolife arguments.
Just because someone is prolife, and PREFERS to have laws that FAVOR prolife,
doesn't mean that has to affect their judgment and agreement by principle
to put Constitutional religious freedom principles first, and accommodate the beliefs of other people
who DON'T share and favor/prefer those same beliefs/bias toward prolife.

that doesn't change the fact those people STILL have a preference for prolife beliefs and bias in the outcomes.]

As for the second point you made, this also rings true with me:
the point about emulating others.

I agree that we raise the standards by examples we set.
If we show the mediation works and consensus/inclusion is possible,
it starts being a choice in people's minds to work toward or at least try for where possible.

right now, if all people see is bullying and coercion to get anywhere
"because the two sides of a conflict are not going to change,
and that's they only way to get anything done or passed at all"
then that's what they keep resorting to and rewarding.

I find this trend very disturbing.

Not only does it negate the Constitutional concepts and principles that
laws and democratic process should respect and protect individual rights of all people equally
ie "equal protection of the laws" and "equal justice under law"

but it sends mixed signals, and makes it harder to enforce a consistent standard:
on one hand we are telling kids NOT to bully in schools,
NOT to harass and discriminate against people who are "different"
but then we see our own national and party leaders
actively and verbally demonize and blame "people of the other affiliation or group/party"
as the ENEMY. And we fight to EXCLUDE and dominate over those views in order to defend our own?

Very conflicting message and approach,
and one I do not find to be sustainable but destructive
and not respectful of equal and inclusive relatìonships.

Mutual respect is key; where people go into arguments already "seeing the other person as representing a group they want to attack exclude and put down", if both sides do that, they won't get anywhere but just attack and defend. Our best bet is addressing each other "one on one" where there is a chance to get away from the fear that a whole other group is out to oppress us.
if we can hear what each other is saying, is concerned about and trying to address,
we can apply that to the larger groups and communicate across barriers of perception
keeping them at odds with each other. change occurs on the "molecular level" and usually
in tandem where two individuals from different viewpoints equally influence each other
to understand where the other is coming from instead of just rejecting and competing.
Because the dynamic is mutual, it is not a matter of one side forcing the other to change,
but both expand their process to include the other, and not necessarily change the existing
beliefs that more often remain in conflict, just the approach to managing this diversity or conflict.

I appreciate the fact you already come here with the
understanding there is a higher way to approach people despite conflicting beliefs.
And yes, that it is more powerful than the coercive means used to try to destroy and control others to dominate.

I like the language you use to describe this,
and hope you will continue to influence and share with others
so more people can get used to seeing how this
approach works in practice.

I agree with you that the influence rubs off on others,
and changes how we do things. And in return other
people teach and influence us, to learn how to manage
more people coming from those diverse backgrounds and beliefs.
So the gain is mutual and we grow toward a more
inclusive and respectful environment, where it is safer to
talk through issues and resolve them diplomatically, by free and informed choice
and not relying so much on coercion and the domination/bullying games we see in party politics and media.

Thank you so much ding
more power to you
and may the meek rise to the top
establishing a more consistent standard
of what is possible by conflict resolution and
consensus decision making to end the need for bullying politics!

Hats off and respect to you!
Keep up what you are doing
and may your circle of influence
be multiplied infinitely and virally, locally and online, to
become the exponential change we'd like to see in the world....

Yours truly, Emily


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## ChrisL (Oct 27, 2016)

emilynghiem said:


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We love Emily, but she tends to write novels.


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## ding (Oct 27, 2016)

emilynghiem said:


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Thank you Emily, I enjoyed reading your post very much.  I agree with many of the things you have written.  Here is another idea for you to consider....

virtue is the ultimate organizing principle.


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## emilynghiem (Oct 27, 2016)

ding said:


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Okay ding  I think you hit on the secular equivalent
of the Biblical scripture:
The greatest of all is Charity/Love.

There are many translations/variations, and the
more specific meaning of the word Love in this context is Charity.

Love is one of the names of God,
but so is Wisdom and Justice (which I equate with the secular
name for Jesus or Christ Jesus as Restorative Justice / Justice with Mercy / Peace and Justice)

Virtue reminds me of the Confucian Trinity
* Jen as the Greatest Virtue or Benevolence
* Yi as the Highest Principles embodied in man
* Li as the Outward Expression of Moral Standards in Conduct

you and I could probably go on and on, about translating
the equivalents of these principles in this system or that one.

How the 5 principles in Confucianism might parallel with the
Cardinal Virtues in Catholicism or the Precepts in Buddhism.
(I already show the parallels between the 4 noble truths in
Buddhism and the 4 spiritual laws in Christianity, how one
begs the questions and the other symbolizes the answers.
And the 3 Refuges compared with the Holy Trinity, and
the 2 core principles of Wisdom and Compassion compared
with the Two Great Commandments upon which all laws
and prophets/teachings are based)

I believe if we can align our "language" for these universal principles,
we'd find each person or system translates them slightly differently,
but the "relationship" between the three levels is still supposed to lead to harmony.

So the goal is the same even if we focus and frame the questions
and answers in different contexts and terms.  Again, about the
whole being greater than the sum of the parts, if we take the
collective of all these systems together, we cover all the truth
out there we can possibly capture in human words and perceptions.

Each system serves to address certain situations and audiences,
and together, the synergy between them covers all levels and ground.

If we fear each other's groups and our differences in priorities, 
and fear we cannot resolve our conflicts, we lose out.  

Learning to coordinate between the different groups with different
focus and tasks is like an Orchestra, where we not only have to 
distinguish who belongs in the trumpets or the woodwinds, and
what instrument and key each person plays in, but help each
musician and section to play their parts in tune, in time and in harmony/balance
with what everyone else is playing. We are all different for a reason,
and these are all necessary to the whole.

I hope we can learn to sing together, and help each other to succeed
in whatever role or purpose we add to this whole universe, for the betterment of humanity.

With the internet and the interaction of groups from all over,
our learning curve should be exponentiated.  Both the very best
and very worst comes out, but that's all part of the process.

Thanks again for being here, keep posting more threads.
Thanks especially for keeping it short, and I certainly hope your
influence rubs off on me. For the sake of everyone else here!

Hugs and smiles
Yours truly, Emily


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## ding (Oct 27, 2016)

emilynghiem said:


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I could not possibly agree more. Two loving people will always have a better relationship than two hateful people.  Two thankful people will always have a better relationship than two thankless people.  Two honest people will always have a better relationship than two dishonest people.  Two caring people will always have a better relationship than two cruel people.  Two humble people will always have a better relationship than two arrogant people.  Two thoughtful people will always have a better relationship than two thoughtless people.  And on and on and on.  Not some of the time.  All of the time.


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## emilynghiem (Oct 27, 2016)

ding said:


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Thanks ding
what I usually run into with people
is each person has strengths in some areas, and fall short in others.
So the two people help each other lift up the good parts, bring out the best sides,
but also address the worst faults that also come out.

I can be thoughtful in some areas but a total DOOF in others and miss the obvious!
So with each person, we bring out our opposites and learn how to use that.
If I can learn to be "more like you" in areas where I NEED to be "more like that"
then I follow your example and "emulate" you. And vice versa.

The beauty is that it tends to be an even trade out of swapping strengths for weaknesses on both sides.
and I must say again, as you said, there is a GREATER benefit in this "even exchange"
where both people come out AHEAD. so by the math of life, the debts become bigger surpluses.
There is expansion and multiplication, like the bread and fishes feeding the multitude.

We need to stop this right now.
If you and I keep on with this, this will bring on the second coming
the final rapture, and I don't think the planet is quite ready.

I have laundry to do and my hair is a mess.
Not ready for the Kingdom of God.

Please stop here, if you keep going, 
there's only one place this is going to lead.

Are you sure the world is ready?
For two of us?  In agreement, do you know what's going to happen
when that aligns and escalates?

C'mon at least post some things where we can disagree
and start projecting emotionally "just a little bit" like everyone else.

We can't agree on everything, that's going to lead to mass consensus.
And as everyone else has preached to me on here, "that's not possible
in our lifetime". 

Is it fair for you and I to be right, that people can resolve differences
and reach harmonious agreements? and make so many other people wrong?
What kind of math is this? I thought majority ruled!

ha ha, keep posting ding, and we'll see the revolution come in, of peace and justice made manifest,
that is overdue on our timeclock but not scheduled on a lot of people's calendars....


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## Yarddog (Oct 27, 2016)

ChrisL said:


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And I expect you to have a report on each one on my desk by Tuesday, Chris.  No fair using Clif notes !


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## ChrisL (Oct 28, 2016)

Yarddog said:


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I'll need more time then!


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## Yarddog (Oct 28, 2016)

ChrisL said:


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More time?   I just didn't want you to fall behind seeing as Emily is so prolific. The mysteries of civization and the universe are about to fall, i just need the translation. Please hurry Chris !  and ahhh,  please wear one of your sexy outfits when you bring the reports.


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## ding (Oct 28, 2016)

emilynghiem said:


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If you are familiar with the personality tests, you might find it interesting that opposites do attract.  Couples tend to select opposites because the opposite s fill a void.  Hence the expression, "you complete me."  Anyway, I completely agree with what you are saying.  I'm a big fan of diversity.


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