# Israel to pay students to defend it online



## P F Tinmore (Aug 15, 2013)

JERUSALEM (AP)  Israel is looking to hire university students to post pro-Israel messages on social media networks  without needing to identify themselves as government-linked, officials said Wednesday.

The Israeli prime minister's office said in a statement Wednesday that students on Israeli university campuses would receive full or partial scholarships to combat anti-Semitism and calls to boycott Israel online. It said students' messages would parallel statements by government officials.

"This is a groundbreaking project aimed at strengthening Israeli national diplomacy and adapting it to changes in information consumption," the statement said.
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*Israel isn't the only country to set up such a system. In China, members of the so-caled "fifty cent army" sprinkle positive, pro-government messages across the web and social media.*

Israel to pay students to defend it online

Birds of a feather...

How many Propaganda arms does one small country need, and why.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Aug 15, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> JERUSALEM (AP)  Israel is looking to hire university students to post pro-Israel messages on social media networks  without needing to identify themselves as government-linked, officials said Wednesday.
> 
> The Israeli prime minister's office said in a statement Wednesday that students on Israeli university campuses would receive full or partial scholarships to combat anti-Semitism and calls to boycott Israel online. It said students' messages would parallel statements by government officials.
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As much as possible.  So people can get the truth because there is far too much ignorance out there, and from many on this board.  This is welcome news.


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## Bloodrock44 (Aug 15, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> JERUSALEM (AP)  Israel is looking to hire university students to post pro-Israel messages on social media networks  without needing to identify themselves as government-linked, officials said Wednesday.
> 
> The Israeli prime minister's office said in a statement Wednesday that students on Israeli university campuses would receive full or partial scholarships to combat anti-Semitism and calls to boycott Israel online. It said students' messages would parallel statements by government officials.
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*Well duh-uh...just take a look at the onslaught of Israel hating posts in this forum and then ask yourself the question again. Hopefully some of those students will show up here and make mincemeat of the ilk.*


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## Kondor3 (Aug 15, 2013)

Paid propagda shills, working on behalf of Israel?

Excellent.

That'll help make up for all the paid shills and amateur-hour volunteers that the Palestinians are using.


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## sealadaigh (Aug 15, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> JERUSALEM (AP)  Israel is looking to hire university students to post pro-Israel messages on social media networks  without needing to identify themselves as government-linked, officials said Wednesday.
> 
> The Israeli prime minister's office said in a statement Wednesday that students on Israeli university campuses would receive full or partial scholarships to combat anti-Semitism and calls to boycott Israel online. It said students' messages would parallel statements by government officials.
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kafka would love the jewish state...LOL.

here we have meir panim on every major newspaper begging for food money to feed starving israeli children while the jewish states spends money to hire students to defend what amounts to be an indefensible position.

these people's desperation is palpable and they have absolutely no idea what is going on. they do not have any idea what they are doing wrong.


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## PredFan (Aug 15, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> JERUSALEM (AP)  Israel is looking to hire university students to post pro-Israel messages on social media networks  without needing to identify themselves as government-linked, officials said Wednesday.
> 
> The Israeli prime minister's office said in a statement Wednesday that students on Israeli university campuses would receive full or partial scholarships to combat anti-Semitism and calls to boycott Israel online. It said students' messages would parallel statements by government officials.
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So what? There are so many lies about Isreal out there, it's enemies don't care about truth, why not pay people to fight the lies? I'd do it if they asked and I'm not Jewish.


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## editec (Aug 15, 2013)

They have to_ pay_ these students?!


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## Book of Jeremiah (Aug 15, 2013)

I think it is about time they caught onto the idea of confronting propagandists rather than ignoring it.  The bottom line is Israel is facing an information war the same as we are here in America.  The Islamists churn out lies like butter ( al takeyya ) and no one challenges them.  No one but the bloggers.  

It is by challenging their lies and exposing their lies with the truth that others are informed about who the aggressors are.  Most of the bloggers I knew years ago for Israel are still writing today.  They know their stuff. 

 I think Israel should let the people who know the ins and outs of blogging come in and give talks on how to navigate on message boards.  Experience counts.  Teaching them how to work as a team.  How to hold a team together when a fight erupts, etc.   Networking, role playing - how to profile, how to set the bait and  take down a radical - there is so much to teach them - turning in radicals -do's and don'ts - building a relationship with terrorism task force in your area - that sort of thing..   I'm glad to hear that Israel is finally doing this.  Wonderful news.  - Jeremiah


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## Book of Jeremiah (Aug 15, 2013)

editec said:


> They have to_ pay_ these students?!



It's a job.  They will have to do it about 12 hours a day to really break in and get inside of what is going on out there.  If they are effective they will get cloaked threats on the message boards by the ones that are a problem.  If they are really effective they will drive them to the surface and they'll start receiving death threats by email.  Then you've got their IP - their photograph -  terrorism task force with take it from there - 

You cannot learn in a classroom all of their propaganda tactics or lies they put out there.  It's something that is learned along the way.  I think it is worth paying them.  Yes.  They are going to have to spend many hours to hone their skill and if they are really good they will be capturing the terrorists online - they'll learn where they hide and chat and will perfect how to go in undetected and gather information.   

They are definitely valuable assets and should be paid accordingly.


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## sealadaigh (Aug 15, 2013)

editec said:


> They have to_ pay_ these students?!



for some peoples, loyalty and love of country has a price tag.

i can see them lining up by freeway entrances holding pieces of cardboard..."will sell my soul for food money."


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 15, 2013)

PredFan said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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Why would there be more "lies" about Israel than any other country?


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## sealadaigh (Aug 15, 2013)

Jeremiah said:


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LOL...what i'm hearing you say is "don't trust jews. they are conniving liars out to entrap people and make money doing it".

what the hell is wrong with you people. i swear, you come up with the most absolutely stupid ideas. do you actually think it will enhance israel's reputation to have to pay people to promote it.

be my guest.


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## Kondor3 (Aug 15, 2013)

Paid propagandists?

Why not?

We pay people to propagandize for the United States, don't we?

Ever hear of Radio Free Europe? Voice of America? The professional staff behind the Obama Internet Campaign of 2008?

Just think of it as 'guerrilla marketing'... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




The mix of volunteers and paid folk doesn't really matter a damn.

Nothing new and exciting here.

Dog bites man.


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## Book of Jeremiah (Aug 15, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


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Because that is how Islamists steal land.  They lie and claim it's theirs.  Rewriting history is as easy as claiming youre the long lost palestinian people while having no history of the name prior to 1960. 

 This is how it was done in Bangaladesh, Kashmir, etc.   Now their trying to stake their claim on Jerusalem.    Nothing new under the sun.  It's time Israel educated the next generation on how to fight in the information war.   It's a good strategy.


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## Roudy (Aug 15, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> JERUSALEM (AP)  Israel is looking to hire university students to post pro-Israel messages on social media networks  without needing to identify themselves as government-linked, officials said Wednesday.
> 
> The Israeli prime minister's office said in a statement Wednesday that students on Israeli university campuses would receive full or partial scholarships to combat anti-Semitism and calls to boycott Israel online. It said students' messages would parallel statements by government officials.
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Islamic organizations many of which are considered terrorist by the US and Europeans such as Hamas and Hezbollah, are already doing that.  Israel is behind the curve on this one. It's about time.


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## Roudy (Aug 15, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


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Muslims keep their people busy and fixated on these lies, while their leaders oppress and steal from the people. Anti Semites across the world join in as well.


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## Book of Jeremiah (Aug 15, 2013)

sealadaigh said:


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Why am I not surprised, Seal?  How long have you been churning out the lies for propagandists?  What is it?  12 yrs now?  Or 15?  I forget.  In this information warfare the ONLY ONES you CAN TRUST are the Jews and those who are fighting alongside of them.  Which is why this news disturbs you so much.  ha! ha!   

It is a brilliant idea - it will increase the effectiveness of Israel being able to get the truth out there and for those who wish to go further and find the bad guys - why not?

  Listen, in my book, anything goes.  Whatever it takes.  My hero used to throw on a burka, wear a camera and videotape radical islamist meetings at the Marriot Hotel - then turn the videos over to the FBI. She was fluent in both Hebrew and Arabic and and gathering info was  as easy as shooting fish in a barrel for that gal.  Brilliant under cover. 

  In the end, she was the one who brought down the Holy Land Foundation - 108 charges - 108 guilty - verdict.    

I see protecting innocent citizens is not high on your list of priorities, Seal.  Then again... 

it never was. 

- Jeri


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## Book of Jeremiah (Aug 15, 2013)

Their idea, Roudy, of people "behaving" is keeping their mouths shut.  We see how that worked out for the passengers aboard the planes that flew into the twin towers on 9/11.   

It would be wise for all americans and Israelis to fight the information war - with pay for these trained students - they can focus on getting the job done and not lose time off the net.  

Notice who is opposed to this idea.  LOL!    You just cannot make it up.  I'm telling you.


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## Book of Jeremiah (Aug 15, 2013)

Here is a cute little story that depicts the heart of an Israel blogger.

This man noticed a neighbors son sitting in his dugout watching his team getting beat.  The score was 36 - visitors - home team - 0.     

The man said to the boy, "Well, son, looks like your team has lost".   

The boy exclaimed, Oh!  No! Sir!  My team hasn't gotten up to bat yet!

All we can see - Is VICTORY.  

- Jeri


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## Book of Jeremiah (Aug 15, 2013)

sealadaigh said:


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This from the man who sees nothing wrong with palestinians selling their children to suicide vests and terrorists for monetary gain.  Oh!  The Irony!  Pass the popcorn.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Aug 15, 2013)

The propaganda needs to be upped by Israel.  Yes, there are sites which show the truth, but Israel needs to do more and this news must be welcomed.  

The Pallywood videos on Youtube pallywood - YouTube            show what tricks the arabs do.


Also Media Watchdog | Coverage of Israel | Anti-Israel Bias | Everything You Need to Know*|*HonestReporting is a great site to show the truth.


Then of course we get the Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting, which is also showing the truth
http://www.camera.org/index.asp


And of course the Israel Defense Forces website:
IDF Blog | The Official Blog of the Israel Defense Forces


of which this is just one of the informative articles on there:
Civil Administration Assists Palestinian Sector With Wastewater Treatment ? IDF Blog | The Official Blog of the Israel Defense Forces


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## Roudy (Aug 15, 2013)

sealadaigh said:


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Antisemitic canard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dual loyalty

A canard found in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, but dating to before that document, is that Jews are more loyal to world Jewry than to their own country. Since the establishment of the state of Israel, this canard has taken the form of accusations that Jewish citizens of countries such as the United States are more loyal to Israel than to their home country.[51]


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## Lipush (Aug 15, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> JERUSALEM (AP)  Israel is looking to hire university students to post pro-Israel messages on social media networks  without needing to identify themselves as government-linked, officials said Wednesday.
> 
> The Israeli prime minister's office said in a statement Wednesday that students on Israeli university campuses would receive full or partial scholarships to combat anti-Semitism and calls to boycott Israel online. It said students' messages would parallel statements by government officials.
> 
> ...



Wait, wait, whaaaaaat?!

You wanna tell me that I sit around responding to assholes, when I can get paid to do that, but now I do that for *free*?!

Where do I sign in?!


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## Roudy (Aug 15, 2013)

Jeremiah said:


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## sealadaigh (Aug 15, 2013)

Jeremiah said:


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i mainly use wiki and the jewish press for my info.

you brag about the only ones you can trust are jews and those who stand by them...and then say your hero is someone who lurks around cheap hotels impersonating a mslim to take vids to incriminate them.

civilians? perhaps you should realise that palestinians have civilians too and are dieing at a rate ten times higher than that of israeli citisens.


i think it really says something about israel that they would even consider paying propagandists in a manner such as they are advocating. i think the jewish state would have at least a minimal amount of respect for the integrity of her children.


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## sealadaigh (Aug 15, 2013)

Jeremiah said:


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show me one single link.

i don't lie about you.


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## Book of Jeremiah (Aug 15, 2013)

sealadaigh said:


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You need to chill and listen to some of my fav blogging music, Seal.   Check out Stevie Rays Inspirational message below:  

[ame=http://youtu.be/p77e2_0fUyo]Stevie Ray Vaughan - Crossfire (1/24/89) - YouTube[/ame]


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## MHunterB (Aug 15, 2013)

sealadaigh said:


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And above we can see an example of the kind of hateful spewage these young people will be dealing with......


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## Book of Jeremiah (Aug 15, 2013)

sealadaigh said:


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You know what I'm talking about.  

-Jeri


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## RoccoR (Aug 15, 2013)

Roudy; Jeremiah; sealadaigh,  _et al,_

In the Intelligence business, we have the Espionage Specialist and the opponent, Counterespionage Specialist; but with each using essentially the same methods of operation.   In the Information Operations arena we have the Propaganda and the opponent, Counter-propaganda; and again, using essentially the same methods of operation.  Nothing new at all, we all know this basic.








*A Great Little Magazine:  I love it.*
The Propagandist​


Roudy said:


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*(COMMENT)*

For more than two decades, the Palestinians have used Propaganda as a principle tool in the conflict with the Israelis.  In fact, it is a basic tenant to their strategy of all-resource utilization.  We call them the associate or companion Article 15 Jihadist.  It is important that a viable and skillful counter-Propaganda effort be mounted on a professionally directed level.  What the Israelis are reportedly doing is nothing more notable than what the Palestinians have been doing since the emergence of social media.



			
				HAMAS Covenant said:
			
		

> *Article Fifteen:*
> 
> It is necessary that scientists, educators and teachers, information and media people, as well as the educated masses, especially the youth and sheikhs of the Islamic movements, should take part in the operation of awakening (the masses). It is important that basic changes be made in the school curriculum, to cleanse it of the traces of ideological invasion that affected it as a result of the orientalists and missionaries who infiltrated the region following the defeat of the Crusaders at the hands of Salah el-Din (Saladin). The Crusaders realised that it was impossible to defeat the Moslems without first having ideological invasion pave the way by upsetting their thoughts, disfiguring their heritage and violating their ideals. Only then could they invade with soldiers. This, in its turn, paved the way for the imperialistic invasion that made Allenby declare on entering Jerusalem: "Only now have the Crusades ended." General Guru stood at Salah el-Din's grave and said: "We have returned, O Salah el-Din." Imperialism has helped towards the strengthening of ideological invasion, deepening, and still does, its roots. All this has paved the way towards the loss of Palestine.​
> _*SOURCE:*_ http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp



But there are a couple basic differences in the approach in which the Palestinian takes.  In the Palestinian Program, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised by core policy and primary purpose.  

Propaganda typically takes any of these forms, or a combination of them:

*Name calling.* This is the crudest and least savory form of argumentum ad hominem. It consists of labeling the other cause, or a generic or particular adherent of that cause, with a noun or adjective having a decidedly negative "buzz" or "charge." Name-calling is also a part of the genetic fallacy of endorsing, or casting doubt upon, a proposition merely by calling attention to its source, when the nature of the source does not bear on the truth value of the propositions that come from that source.
*Half-truths, or lies of ommision*, in which facts which support the distributor are spread while deliberately neglecting facts which would pose difficulty.
*Testimonials.* This is a form of argumentum ab auctoritate. A "celebrity endorsement" is a prime example. So, too, is any speech or essay by one publicly celebrated as an athlete, actor in any form of theater, or other such person, on a subject in which the author has no legitimate expertise.
*Loaded questions.*
*Distortions of fact.*
*Extreme pronouncements,* which are a form of over-generalizations.
*Intimidation. *This may include arguing from the numbers or reminding an opponent of the power of the particular individual or group engaging in the intimidation--or of an individual or group for which one claims to speak.
*Using abridged or out-of-context quotes* to give a false impression, aka Quote mining.
*Sayings that, however factual, fall outside the scope or even off the topic at hand*. A lawyer would say that such facts are "incompetent, irrelevant and immaterial"--because they do not serve to advance a logical argument, are not properly related to the case at hand, and do not matter.
*Outright lies.* Dr. Josef Goebbels, Minister of Propaganda for Adolf Hitler, famously observed that if one tells a lie loudly enough and often enough, people will believe it rather than believe that anyone could lie so outrageously.
*Personal attacks.* This method of propaganda often involves spreading malicious rumors and misinformation about other people. The goal of such attacks is to undermine the character of the person in order to gain the upper hand. Name-calling and intimidation are often used in concurrence with this.

*SOURCE:* http://conservapedia.com/Propaganda

Having said that, there are some who are inadvertently mistaken for Propagandist; that are passionate about the subject, and occasionally, fall into bad habits _(such as calling everyone a "liar" or "distorting facts" to make a point)_.  

Whether one is paid to make a presentation, or one feels compelled to make a presentation, is really unimportant.  It is the ability to examine the content and determine what, within the content is wheat and what is chaff.   I've listened to almost everyone in this group, and the one thing in common is that ability to apply "critical thinking."  _(Many time to cross purposes.)_

Just My Thought on an otherwise Funny Subject,
R


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## MHunterB (Aug 15, 2013)

sealadaigh said:


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Seal, I think you should RUN to the audiologist then....  where in the article did it suggest anyone had refused to do this work unless paid?  

Let me explain something to you about the Jewish understanding of ethics:  there exists a sin which can be described as 'theft of time'.  An example of this would be as follows:  you want to buy a new appliance, so you head to the store where people are paid on commission, and make your inquiries.  But you buy it at the 'big box' store where you can get it cheaper.  

Doing that is 'theft of time/skill' under Jewish religious law.  You *knew* you had no intention of buying from that salesman, but you used his expertise for your own benefit *under false pretenses* 

The way I see it - and I acknowledge I'm not a religious scholar - asking the students to spend serious amounts of time or commit to this program without paying them would be a similar disrespect for their time and skills.  

In some nations, I've heard they pay students for finishing high school, or teenage girls for not getting pregnant - are you scandalized by those ideas as well?

Oh, and would you PLEASE stop with the 'you people' which is outrageously condescending and derogatory?


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## Lipush (Aug 15, 2013)

And how do we know Sealy doesn't get paid to say nonsense!?

Since he was the first to point out how 'appalled' he was by the idea.


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## Roudy (Aug 15, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> Roudy; Jeremiah; sealadaigh,  _et al,_
> 
> In the Intelligence business, we have the Espionage Specialist and the opponent, Counterespionage Specialist; but with each using essentially the same methods of operation.   In the Information Operations arena we have the Propaganda and the opponent, Counter-propaganda; and again, using essentially the same methods of operation.  Nothing new at all, we all know this basic.
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Palestinians have mastered the Nazi art of turn-speak, accusing your enemy of things you are guilty of. They do this in all aspects.


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## sealadaigh (Aug 15, 2013)

Jeremiah said:


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i think the convenience is yours, darlin', to falsely accuse me and then claim the proof is inaccessable. aren't you a christian?


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## sealadaigh (Aug 15, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> Roudy; Jeremiah; sealadaigh,  _et al,_
> 
> In the Intelligence business, we have the Espionage Specialist and the opponent, Counterespionage Specialist; but with each using essentially the same methods of operation.   In the Information Operations arena we have the Propaganda and the opponent, Counter-propaganda; and again, using essentially the same methods of operation.  Nothing new at all, we all know this basic.
> 
> ...



the really funny subject is your use of conservapedia as though it were some sort of legitimate source...

true colours, rocco?


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## eots (Aug 15, 2013)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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If they need to be paid to say it..what they say has little credibility


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## Sweet_Caroline (Aug 15, 2013)

eots said:


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Everyone needs to make a living.


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## eots (Aug 15, 2013)

Sweet_Caroline said:


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so why doesn't he government pay students opposed to the present policies to post..do not they need to make a living ?


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## sealadaigh (Aug 15, 2013)

MHunterB said:


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and you need to learn how to read. where did i say anything at all about people refusing to work without pay.

your whine about "you people" is generally offensive to homogenous ethnic or religious groups and not heterogenous groups linked by a common politicasl belie.

but i mean, i really don't give a fuck. bring in paid schills. all it will do is destroy boards like this and breed distrust and that will only come back to bite you on the ass.

is your message really that defeated that you need to pay people to promote it, and deceptively, no less.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Aug 15, 2013)

eots said:


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You are saying the Government should employ students?  Students need to study and they need to go to classes, as well as have time with their families and peers.  In other words students do not have time to work.  I am sure the Israel Government will sort this out well.  Don't worry yourself about it.


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## MHunterB (Aug 15, 2013)

"do you actually think it will enhance israel's reputation to have to pay people to promote it."

There ya go, sealie - from your post #12.  If Israel 'has to' pay, it means people would not do it *unless* paid.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Aug 15, 2013)

I would do it for free.  I have lots of time to spare.


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## Lipush (Aug 15, 2013)

eots said:


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Why should it?

They get their payments from 'enlightened' Anti-Israel organizations.


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## Lipush (Aug 15, 2013)

I still think it could be a nice gig.

I need money for books.

Mhmmmmm.


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## MHunterB (Aug 15, 2013)

"your whine about "you people" is generally offensive to homogenous ethnic or religious groups and not heterogenous groups linked by a common politicasl belie."

It was a polite request: I could show everyone what a 'whine' looks like, but then I try to avoid quoting your postings : ))  That rant about how people 'thanked' my post but not yours the other day, now that was a classic!

But I digress:  the government of Israel is the 'group' which decided to pay those kids.  Nobody here works for the government of Israel (that I know of) - so the 'you people' addressing posters here was out of place, inaccurate, and a misrepresentation.

The whole of the Jewish people does not speak for Israel, nor does Israel necessarily speak for the whole of the Jewish people.  We are *connected*:  we are not *interchangeable*


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## MHunterB (Aug 15, 2013)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> I would do it for free.  I have lots of time to spare.



Me, too.  Maybe they've got a training program for volunteers?


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## CMike (Aug 15, 2013)

I think it's wonderful too.

You look how much hatred, and untrue anti-Israel, proganda which is spread online.


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## CMike (Aug 15, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


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Because a lot of arabs with lots and lots of money want to destroy Israel because it exists.


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## sealadaigh (Aug 15, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> "do you actually think it will enhance israel's reputation to have to pay people to promote it."
> 
> There ya go, sealie - from your post #12.  If Israel 'has to' pay, it means people would not do it *unless* paid.



it means no such thing. 

it means israel has to pay some people to support her due to a lack of promotion otherwise. 

it doesn't mean that no one does it voluntairily, darlin'. i am sure some people do.

read the article.


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## Roudy (Aug 15, 2013)

Again, this IN RESPONSE TO the lies and false propaganda that has and is being spread about Israel. Is anybody claiming that Islamists and neo Nazis haven't already been doing this for years if not decades? Really?


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## sealadaigh (Aug 15, 2013)

Roudy said:


> Again, this IN RESPONSE TO the lies and false propaganda that has and is being spread about Israel. Is anybody claiming that Islamists and neo Nazis haven't already been doing this for years if not decades? Really?



give us a link from an objective source.


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## RoccoR (Aug 15, 2013)

sealadaigh,  _et al,_

I listen and learn from everyone, an judge the content on its merit; yours included.



sealadaigh said:


> the really funny subject is your use of conservapedia as though it were some sort of legitimate source...
> 
> true colours, rocco?


*(COMMENT)*

Even an opponent can make a good point.  Anytime you see me post inaccurate information, call me on it.  Truth is were you find it.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## patrickcaturday (Aug 15, 2013)

*I tell you what the day I think that there are paid posters on this board is the day I leave.  Shouldn't really be all that hard to see.*


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## sealadaigh (Aug 15, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> sealadaigh,  _et al,_
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> I listen and learn from everyone, an judge the content on its merit; yours included.
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some would suggest that such a statement indicates that you believe conservapedia is some kind of purveyor of truth, i.e. facts.

i imagine i can find some truth on sites such as stormfront intermingled with a lot of hate and bigotry and i also imagine that i would be dismissed outright, and rightfully so, were i to use that site.

i think also, you will find far more zionist posters using propaganda and questionable sites than you will find pro-palestinians posters doing the same.


----------



## sealadaigh (Aug 15, 2013)

patrickcaturday said:


> *I tell you what the day I think that there are paid posters on this board is the day I leave.  Shouldn't really be all that hard to see.*



i can't imagine the administrators allowing such a thing as it would, in essence, destroy the board.

i don't see how they can prevent it other than the extreme meausre of banning ISPs by countru, if that is possible.

it really does show how desperate israel is, not to mention dishonest, to consider such a thing.


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## georgephillip (Aug 15, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> JERUSALEM (AP)  Israel is looking to hire university students to post pro-Israel messages on social media networks  without needing to identify themselves as government-linked, officials said Wednesday.
> 
> The Israeli prime minister's office said in a statement Wednesday that students on Israeli university campuses would receive full or partial scholarships to combat anti-Semitism and calls to boycott Israel online. It said students' messages would parallel statements by government officials.
> 
> ...



From your link:

"An Israeli official said Wednesday that scholarship recipients would be free to decide whether or not to identify themselves as part of the program, which would begin within months.

"*Everyone who believes in the cause, and wants to join, can join*," he told The Associated Press. 

"He said the office was looking to budget $778,000 for the project, and that the national Israeli student association would select participants from a pool of applicants."

So, will everyone who believes in the cau$e of Greater Israel be willing to reveal the $ource of their of their $ympathy?


----------



## sealadaigh (Aug 15, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > JERUSALEM (AP)  Israel is looking to hire university students to post pro-Israel messages on social media networks  without needing to identify themselves as government-linked, officials said Wednesday.
> ...



LOL...watch the flood of denials. they've already started.


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## P F Tinmore (Aug 15, 2013)

sealadaigh said:


> patrickcaturday said:
> 
> 
> > *I tell you what the day I think that there are paid posters on this board is the day I leave.  Shouldn't really be all that hard to see.*
> ...



Not to mention that there are more ads pimping Israel than all other countries combined.


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## RoccoR (Aug 15, 2013)

sealadaigh,  _et al,_

Again, you judge the content.  If the content of a particular citation is true, then it is true no matter who says it.



sealadaigh said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > I listen and learn from everyone, an judge the content on its merit; yours included.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

I'm not sure my findings are the same.  I disagree with our friend P F Tinmore about 90% of the time.  I believe he would say the same about me.  But I've hardly ever  challenged his sources and I would say that he seldom challenges mind (as they are mostly official sources).  

Use of a specific site means nothing.  It is the information you glean from that site that is important.  If you cannot digest and analyze the information on its own merit, then you are not using your critical thinking skills.  Just because I did not cite Cyberspace and Information Warfare Center or CHAPTER 12 Propaganda Analysis and Counterpropaganda, *--->*JP 3-13, Information Operations, 27 November 2012 , which support that excerpt, doesn't mean it is less true or invalid.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## georgephillip (Aug 15, 2013)

sealadaigh said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



"The hasbara brigade strikes again! You always hear about Israeli attempts at media manipulation. Everyone knows it's going on but usually the process happens through cyber insurgents like those involved with Giyus (and its media monitoring software, Megaphone). 

"Now, we know that the Israeli foreign ministry itself is orchestrating propaganda efforts designed to flood news websites with pro-Israel arguments and information."

Israel is watching the world turn its back, and it thinks more propaganda will fend off the inevitable FLUSH.

Richard Silverstein: The Israeli foreign ministry itself is asking volunteers to flood news websites with pro-Israel arguments and information | Comment is free | theguardian.com


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## Bloodrock44 (Aug 15, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> sealadaigh said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...



*Just wait until those students flood this forum and make you look like a fool Georgie. Course they'll only need to send their 2nd grade students to do that.*


----------



## Roudy (Aug 15, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> sealadaigh said:
> 
> 
> > patrickcaturday said:
> ...


I don't know, somehow this glass isn't even half full for me to see that perspective.  I see it as just empty.


----------



## Roudy (Aug 15, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> sealadaigh,  _et al,_
> 
> Again, you judge the content.  If the content of a particular citation is true, then it is true no matter who says it.
> 
> ...


It's not the source, but what the source says, which is, the truth.


----------



## sealadaigh (Aug 15, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> sealadaigh,  _et al,_
> 
> Again, you judge the content.  If the content of a particular citation is true, then it is true no matter who says it.
> 
> ...



of course, and that is what i said. however, it is the zionist posters who complain about a lot of  soursce the pro-palestinians use while they themselves use very questionable sources. also, the manner in which propaganda sites present facts prejudices the argument.

it also says a lot about a person as to what site they use, whether you like it or not.

for the record too, i have found very legitimate and accurate articles on questionable sites and just walked away.

perhaps if you can't read and understand what i said, you should go back and reread it. i questioned the site. i haven't even gotton around to questioning the sites OPINION as to what constitutes propaganda. also, i did not see anything if the FM that particularly validated what was said in the original link you posted.


----------



## MHunterB (Aug 15, 2013)

patrickcaturday said:


> *I tell you what the day I think that there are paid posters on this board is the day I leave.  Shouldn't really be all that hard to see.*



In that case, PC - I'm really a 19 year-old nursing student in TA, and I get paid to post here : ))    I wish I could say it's been nice knowin' ya........


----------



## RoccoR (Aug 16, 2013)

sealadaigh,  _et al,_

I use all types of sources, and give proper attributes when I copy something of value.  It is a transparency thing on credits.



sealadaigh said:


> i questioned the site. i haven't even gotton around to questioning the sites OPINION as to what constitutes propaganda.


*(CONCEPT)*



			
				Propaganda techniques said:
			
		

> _*Ad hominem*_
> A Latin phrase which has come to mean attacking your opponent, as opposed to attacking their arguments.
> 
> _*SOURCE:*_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_techniques





			
				Propaganda - All Devices said:
			
		

> *Ad Hominem Attack:* If you can't refute the argument, attack the person presenting the argument. The intent is to discredit said person, as well as to distract you and make you think the argument has been refuted.
> 
> _*SOURCE:*_ http://www.physics.smu.edu/pseudo/Propaganda/alldevices.html





			
				Propaganda Techniques said:
			
		

> *Ad Hominem:*
> A person rejects a claim on the basis of derogatory facts (real or alleged) about the person making the claim.
> 
> _*SOURCE:*_ http://orderofsaintpatrick.org/marx1/propaganda-tech.htm



*(COMMENT)*

I use an excerpt from the site (a small compilation).  I did not endorse the site overall, just the list I used giving proper attribution; the endorsement was an inference you made to impugn the content and to sidetrack the real discussion.  



sealadaigh said:


> i did not see anything if the FM that particularly validated what was said in the original link you posted.


*(CONCEPT)*

Outside the Information Operations (IO) arena dealing with Propaganda and counter-Propaganda, the technique of _"ad hominem attacks"_ (the last item on the small list I copied) is more a Philosophical concept.   The technical name for it in IO is "indirect refutation."  



			
				FM 33-1-1 Page 12-12 said:
			
		

> Indirect Refutation. This technique involves the introduction of a new set of relevant themes that refute opponent propaganda by indirect means. These indirect means include implication and insinuation. Indirect refutation challenges the credibility of opponent propaganda. The advantage of this technique is that it does not reinforce or spread opponent propaganda as readily as direct refutation.  An example of this method would be to discredit the integrity of the sponsor or a prominent member of the opposition by damaging his credibility. This method serves to weaken the sponsors message.
> 
> *SOURCE:* http://library.enlisted.info/field-manuals/series-3/FM33-1-1/CH12.PDF



I chose to use a list that is less filled with technical jargon.  But every item on the list is covered in the FM or one of the other references.

*In this case, you got me.*  You indirectly discredited me (quite skillfully I might add) by challenging the reputation of the source I chose for the list compilation, without ever discussion the content.  That was a very effective use of "Indirect Refutation" _(in layman's terms an ----> ad hominem attack)_.  I was entangled before I knew what happened _(I'm getting very old)_.  Trapped by one of the very things I was trying to explain.  Good Show ---> I congratulate you!

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## daveman (Aug 16, 2013)

daveman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > JERUSALEM (AP)  Israel is looking to hire university students to post pro-Israel messages on social media networks  without needing to identify themselves as government-linked, officials said Wednesday.
> ...


They see this post -- and they keep doing it.


----------



## sealadaigh (Aug 16, 2013)

Bloodrock44 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > sealadaigh said:
> ...



that certainly says a lot about your opinion of the quality of the zionist posters on this forum if you think israel needs to pay second graders to bolster your arguments.


----------



## Roudy (Aug 16, 2013)

I think Palestinian supporters are some of the most ethical, educated, knowledgable, tolerant people you will ever find. <wink wink> 

I also have a used car for sale.


----------



## sealadaigh (Aug 16, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> sealadaigh,  _et al,_
> 
> I use all types of sources, and give proper attributes when I copy something of value.  It is a transparency thing on credits.
> 
> ...



i think it is always legitimate to attack a scurrilous sources. if you choose to take it personally, that is your business. do not interpret my attack on a source as an attack on you. when i attack you, you will know it.


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 17, 2013)

Bloodrock44 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > sealadaigh said:
> ...



Maybe you'll do better post-Kindergarten...

"World governments are still patient with Israel's justified operation in Gaza. The [sic] public opinion, on the other hand, is impatient, to say the least. This gap will soon close  it always does.

"It is our goal to shift the public opinion, as conveyed in the internet; avoiding, or at least minimising, sanctions by world leaders. We need to buy the IDF enough time to achieve its goals."

Richard Silverstein: The Israeli foreign ministry itself is asking volunteers to flood news websites with pro-Israel arguments and information | Comment is free | theguardian.com

Shifting public opinion to support Israel's "creeping annexation" of Palestine will require better arguments than "might makes right" which leaves you a semester or two short of  Kindergarten, Killer.


----------



## Bloodrock44 (Aug 17, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> Bloodrock44 said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...



*Well Comrade, while your arguing your ass off on some meaningless message board, Israel is expanding , expanding, expanding. Will you sing "We Are The Champions" with me? Oh BTW...might makes right. What are you going to do about it?*


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Aug 17, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> Bloodrock44 said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...



I don't know how the mods on this Board let you call former soldiers and war heroes "killers".  They protect your sorry ass.  Freedom is not free.


----------



## Bloodrock44 (Aug 17, 2013)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > Bloodrock44 said:
> ...



*This is not the first time he's called me a killer. His rage is overtaking him. He's resorting to the Liberty. I'd like to be a fly on the wall. Wouldn't go near his computer screen. Might get stuck in the spittle.  In which branch did he serve? Oh...never mind. *


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 18, 2013)

Bloodrock44 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > Bloodrock44 said:
> ...



*Ask de Gaulle (or your butt bud, Bibi)*

A World Record for Chutzpah » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

"THIS (the "peace process") WOULD not have been so dangerous if Netanyahu had been a Charles de Gaulle. Unfortunately, he isnt.

"De Gaulle was one of the towering figures of the 20th century. Cold, aloof, overbearing, intensely disliked by the rest of the worlds leaders, this extreme right-wing general took the historic decision to give up the huge country of Algeria, four times as big as metropolitan France.

"Algeria, it must be remembered, was officially not a colony, not an occupied territory, but a part of France proper. It had been under French rule for more than a century. *More than a million settlers saw it as their homeland.* Yet de Gaulle made the lonely decision to give it up, putting his own life in grave danger.

"Since then, Israeli leftists have yearned for 'an Israeli de Gaulle', who would do their job for them, according to the old Hebrew adage that '*the work of the righteous is done by others'*  others meaning, one assumes, people who are not quite so righteous.

"There is, of course, one important difference. De Gaulle was supported by his conservative allies, the tycoons of the French economy. These sober-minded capitalists saw how the Germans were taking over the economy of Europe, which was in the process of uniting, while France was wasting its resources on an expensive, totally useless colonial war in North Africa. They wanted to get rid of it as quickly as possible, and de Gaulle was their man."

Who had the "might" and who had the "right" in Algeria?
How did that turn out for rich European colonialists?
About the same way as White South Africa?

"So is there hope? Time to quote again the Yiddish saying: 'If God wills, even a broomstick can shoot!'


----------



## Hossfly (Aug 18, 2013)

Bloodrock44 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > Bloodrock44 said:
> ...


Is it really surprising that Georgie Boy has found a Leftist Jew who hates Israel and a Jew whose articles are featured on many of the sites where Israel and the Jews as a whole are hated by the two-bit anti-Semites.  By the way, Bloodrock, do you see this wuss calling you a killer when he would have been hiding under his bed if he ever saw any action.  He couldn't even finish two entire weeks in basic training without wimping out.

Richard Silverstein is a Dolt | Jewlicious THE Jewish Blog

Richard Silverstein Defends Blood Libel Cartoon | Israellycool


----------



## Bloodrock44 (Aug 18, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> Bloodrock44 said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...



*Not the first time he's called me a killer. But you notice he does it behind the safety of his keyboard. Gutless coward.*


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 18, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> Bloodrock44 said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...



Your shitty link, 'Stain:

"Rupert Murdoch has opened up a can of worms by attacking the award-winning cartoonist for his flagship Sunday Times, Gerald Scarfe. Murdoch called 'grotesque and offensive' a cartoon called 'Israeli election: will cementing peace continue?' 

"It depicts a brutish Bibi Netanyahu as bricklayer building the Separation Wall with the blood of Palestinian victims who are entombed within it.

"First, lets set the record straight: the cartoon is grotesque and offensive. But so is the Occupation. I would maintain that despite the jarring, horrific emotions it instills in the reader, it is within the tradition of the great cartoonists from Thomas Nast to Honore Daumier. 

"Revisit some of their cartoons and how they depicted Boss Tweed and the villains of their era. They made them out to be porcine brutes swilling on the blood, sweat and tears of their victims."

Is Rupert your kind of Jew (firster)?
Why do "heroes" like you and your sock-stain always take the side of Bibi and Boss Tweed?
Are you naturally submissive to rich white males or inbred chicken-shits?
Both?


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Aug 18, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Bloodrock44 said:
> ...



Bibi's first concern is always Israel's security.  He lost his brother Yoni, to terrorists in Uganda.  Yoni always said, "Follow me" to his boys, and he always lead the charge.  Bibi's dad, a professor, was an expert in the Spanish Inquisition.  Bibi doesn't want to see the Jews in a vulnerable position again, and he's not a bad role model, as you seem to hint.


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 18, 2013)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...


I'm pretty sure we don't value the opinion of Uri Avnery equally, but Avnery knew Bibi, his father, and Sarah much better than I.

Do you find any value in the following?

"His colleagues in the Likud leadership quite openly despise him, regarding him as a man of no principles, without a backbone, giving in to every pressure. 

"*This seems to have been the opinion of his late father, who once declared that Binyamin would make a good foreign minister, but certainly not a prime minister.*

In the government he is quite alone. Previous prime ministers had a close group of ministers to consult with. Golda Meir had a 'kitchen cabinet'. 

"Netanyahu has no one. 

"He does not consult with anyone. 

"He announces his decisions, and thats that.

"In his previous terms he had at least a group of confidants in his office. These officials have been driven out one by one by Sarah, his wife."

A World Record for Chutzpah » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names


----------



## Hossfly (Aug 18, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Bloodrock44 said:
> ...


Now, now, Georgie Boy, speaking of "shitty," don't you think many of the viewers think that about your nonsensical sites, many of which you drag up over and over like you have the mind of Joseph Goebbels, thinking that if you drag them up time and time again the viewers will start believing the lies.  Meanwhile, can you prove to us that Murdoch is Jewish -- from a legitimate source of course?  Looks like Georgie Boy is getting testier as the day goes by.  Guess this is what happens when  you get up to post before the rooster crows.  I guess a poster who has all those skidmarks thinks that everyone is like him because he is busy having fun calling them 'Stain.  We all know what he left off of 'Stain.  Go to the laundromat, Georgie Boy.  Meanwhile, it would stand to reason that Georgie Boy himself salivates when he sees all those Nazi-like cartoons dissing the Jews.  I don't think he would enjoy the derogatory cartoons against Blacks on the White Supremacist sites.  And, Georgie Boy, any grown man who couldn't even get through at least two weeks of basic training is the one who is actually chicken shit so you can say whatever you want to, but I think many of the readers realize by now that you are a wimp who would have nothing to say if you didn't have your sites to run to.  I'm sure many of the readers have noticed Georgie Boy referencing "rich" again in his post.  It appears that those who have had nothing (mainly for their own lack of initiative) really resent those who have money.


----------



## Hossfly (Aug 18, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...


Regardless of what Georgie Boy thinks and regardless of what that Leftist Avnery writes, this video shows a pretty sharp man to me.  I think many of the viewers will agree.  Maybe you and Avnery enjoy pecking away all day long on a keyboard, Georgie, but I think Bibi has more important things to do.  I wonder why Uri Avnery is not serving in the Knesset any more.  Perhaps Georgie Boy can tell us why.  He likes to do all this research so perhaps he will find time to research the answer to this question.  I also wonder if Georgie Boy can tell us if Avnery is on the staff as one of the writers for any of the Israeli publications or is he just free lance -- like singing for his supper.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lixYEZ9M_dU]benjamin netanyahu 28 years old - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Roudy (Aug 19, 2013)

The point is why would anybody be upset about this, when Arabs and Muslims have been spreading false propaganda, hate and lies abut Israel (and failing at it) for decades. Israel has every right to defend itself and its reputation against these vicious blood libels.


----------



## Saigon (Aug 19, 2013)

Roudy said:


> The point is why would anybody be upset about this, when Arabs and Muslims have been spreading false propaganda, hate and lies abut Israel (and failing at it) for decades. Israel has every right to defend itself and its reputation against these vicious blood libels.



So spreading lies and false propaganda is acceptable if both sides indulge in it?

I don't agree - I would rather see both sides stick to truth and facts as best they can.

Would you also agree that Palestinians have the right to defend themselves against "vicious blood libels" spread by racists?


----------



## Saigon (Aug 19, 2013)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Bibi's first concern is always Israel's security.  He lost his brother Yoni, to terrorists in Uganda.  Yoni always said, "Follow me" to his boys, and he always lead the charge.  Bibi's dad, a professor, was an expert in the Spanish Inquisition.  Bibi doesn't want to see the Jews in a vulnerable position again, and he's not a bad role model, as you seem to hint.



How would you describe his role modelling on issues such as corruption and nepotism?


----------



## Snouter (Aug 19, 2013)

See this all the time on Yahoo boards.  Prolly a few folks here on their payroll.


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## Roudy (Aug 19, 2013)

Saigon said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > The point is why would anybody be upset about this, when Arabs and Muslims have been spreading false propaganda, hate and lies abut Israel (and failing at it) for decades. Israel has every right to defend itself and its reputation against these vicious blood libels.
> ...


Where did it say that Israel will be spreading false propaganda?  The entire Arab and Muslim world, Palestinians included, is engaged in spreading lies about Israel. It's about time Israel did something about it.


----------



## Saigon (Aug 19, 2013)

> Where did it say that Israel will be spreading false propaganda?



Here:



> The point is why would anybody be upset about this, when Arabs and Muslims have been spreading false propaganda, hate and lies abut Israel (and failing at it) for decades.



The obvious implication is that Israel is now doing what Palestinians have done for decades.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 19, 2013)

Speaking about false propaganda. How do we get reporting in the MSM like this?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziSTY408h6k]Off the Charts - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## freedombecki (Aug 19, 2013)

Saigon said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > The point is why would anybody be upset about this, when Arabs and Muslims have been spreading false propaganda, hate and lies abut Israel (and failing at it) for decades. Israel has every right to defend itself and its reputation against these vicious blood libels.
> ...


 Deflecting original truth does not make it go away, Mr. Saigon.


----------



## freedombecki (Aug 19, 2013)

> JERUSALEM (AP)  Israel is looking to hire university students to post pro-Israel messages on social media networks  without needing to identify themselves as government-linked, officials said Wednesday.
> 
> The Israeli prime minister's office said in a statement Wednesday that students on Israeli university campuses would receive full or partial scholarships to combat anti-Semitism and calls to boycott Israel online. It said students' messages would parallel statements by government officials.
> 
> "This is a groundbreaking project aimed at strengthening Israeli national diplomacy and adapting it to changes in information consumption," the statement said.


 
I think teaching defense to those who are descended from the 6,000,000 Jews who died at the behest of the Nazis alone is a good way to preventing another holocaust from ever happening again.

The Mufti of Jerusalem who convinced Hitler he should murder all the Jews in Europe and his hitmen are directly responsible for this blight on history. Their descendants need to blend in the Middle East in a way that accepts that genocide is a bad idea, and stop bombarding Israel with bombs and threats.

Israel isn't going to take it any more.


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## Saigon (Aug 19, 2013)

> I think teaching defense to those who are descended from the 6,000,000 Jews who died at the behest of the Nazis alone is a good way to preventing another holocaust from ever happening again.



I totally agree - but I'd go further and say that Hoocaust history needs most to be taught to us Europeans and to people in the Middle East and Africa...it needs to be taught in places where anti-Semitism is most prevalent and where massacres are most like to recur. 

What we need least is to see Jews using the same rhetoric and tactics as fascists used back in the 1930's.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Aug 19, 2013)

Saigon said:


> > I think teaching defense to those who are descended from the 6,000,000 Jews who died at the behest of the Nazis alone is a good way to preventing another holocaust from ever happening again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I was never in Europe, except for one day in Amsterdam.  How is anti-Semitism over there?


----------



## Saigon (Aug 19, 2013)

FY - 

Well, it varies massively from society to society, of course. A lot of that I think reflects the quality of education. I think Germany, the UK, Benelux and Scandinavia have done an excellent job in teaching young people about the past, and I am always impressed with the German people I meet - they are much more open and responsible about their own history than people in most other countries are with their own embarrassing historical trauma. 

France and Austria I don't think have done as well, but are still balanced enough. 

The real threat comes in Eastern Europe - Russia, the Ukraine, Latvia, Hungary and the Czech Republic have large anti-Semitic groups, and I suspect a lot of middle class support. They worry me. There are a lot of neo-Nazis in their groups, and operating without the hostile opposition they have in Germany.


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## Trajan (Aug 19, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> JERUSALEM (AP)  Israel is looking to hire university students to post pro-Israel messages on social media networks  without needing to identify themselves as government-linked, officials said Wednesday.
> 
> The Israeli prime minister's office said in a statement Wednesday that students on Israeli university campuses would receive full or partial scholarships to combat anti-Semitism and calls to boycott Israel online. It said students' messages would parallel statements by government officials.
> 
> ...



soooo, Israel 'is' china...because they use media ? 

 ever heard of attackwatch? and we have a poster here who appears to be a paid or 'volunteer' mouthpiece for/of a government agency,....and, so what?


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## Book of Jeremiah (Aug 19, 2013)

Israel should get the truth out there by every means possible.  Time is of the essence.


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## Bloodrock44 (Aug 19, 2013)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > > I think teaching defense to those who are descended from the 6,000,000 Jews who died at the behest of the Nazis alone is a good way to preventing another holocaust from ever happening again.
> ...



*I spent 5 years in Germany and traveled extensively in Europe.  Never really encountered it until I came to these type forums.*


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## Bloodrock44 (Aug 19, 2013)

Jeremiah said:


> Israel should get the truth out there by every means possible.  Time is of the essence.



*Think I'll go to the local college and enroll in a class and then make a call to Tel Aviv.I don't come cheap though. /B]*


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## Roudy (Aug 19, 2013)

Saigon said:


> > Where did it say that Israel will be spreading false propaganda?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There is no implication. Perhaps only an imagined one. Israel has been ignoring lies and false propaganda, and it has just now realized it can no longer ignore this cancer that has been spreading for decades.  Setting the record straight isn't the same as spreading lies and hate.


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## Billo_Really (Aug 19, 2013)

Roudy said:


> There is no implication. Perhaps only an imagined one. Israel has been ignoring lies and false propaganda, and it has just now realized it can no longer ignore this cancer that has been spreading for decades.  Setting the record straight isn't the same as spreading lies and hate.


Do you consider your posts spreading _*"truth and love"?*_

Give me 3 examples of what you consider _*"lies and propaganda".*_


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## Billo_Really (Aug 19, 2013)

I find it funny that Israel, instead of doing the right thing and ending the occupation,  prefers to pay people to go online and try to change the _"perception"_ of the occupation.

I'm sorry, Israel, the only thing you can do with an occupation, _is to end it!_

That's the only option on your table.


----------



## Roudy (Aug 19, 2013)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > There is no implication. Perhaps only an imagined one. Israel has been ignoring lies and false propaganda, and it has just now realized it can no longer ignore this cancer that has been spreading for decades.  Setting the record straight isn't the same as spreading lies and hate.
> ...


Lets not get into personal attacks now. At times Yes, I find myself setting the record straight about the lies being told about Jews or Israel by the garden variety anti Semite or Islamofacist types.  But usually they bore me, often repeating the same lies and garbage propaganda over and over, even though they've been proven wrong and embarrassed many times.


----------



## Roudy (Aug 19, 2013)

It appears that the concept of Israel being able to defend itself and successfully, is very upsetting.  Good.


----------



## Billo_Really (Aug 19, 2013)

Roudy said:


> Lets not get into personal attacks now. At times Yes, I find myself setting the record straight about the lies being told about Jews or Israel by the garden variety anti Semite or Islamofacist types.  But usually they bore me, often repeating the same lies and garbage propaganda over and over, even though they've been proven wrong and embarrassed many times.


Questions are not personal attacks, they're just questions.

I believe I asked you to give me 3 examples of these lies you keep referring to; are you going to comply, or stay with the vague generalizations you've been doing so far?


----------



## toastman (Aug 19, 2013)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Lets not get into personal attacks now. At times Yes, I find myself setting the record straight about the lies being told about Jews or Israel by the garden variety anti Semite or Islamofacist types.  But usually they bore me, often repeating the same lies and garbage propaganda over and over, even though they've been proven wrong and embarrassed many times.
> ...



The Dodgers suck, hows that for a generalization ??


----------



## Billo_Really (Aug 19, 2013)

toastman said:


> The Dodgers suck, hows that for a generalization ??


You crossed the line, Mister!


----------



## toastman (Aug 19, 2013)

Billo_Really said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > The Dodgers suck, hows that for a generalization ??
> ...



LOL . Nah, they're awesome. My team (expos) moved to Washington a while back, so as a Canadian, naturally I cheer for the only Canadian team, the Blue Jays, who of course stink .


----------



## Billo_Really (Aug 19, 2013)

toastman said:


> LOL . Nah, they're awesome. My team (expos) moved to Washington a while back, so as a Canadian, naturally I cheer for the only Canadian team, the Blue Jays, who of course stink .


I used to live with a girl from Fargo, North Dakota.  Her brother told me one time how awesome it was to go bar-hopping up in Canada.  I asked him, _"Why?"  _He said, _"Dude, up there, we're foreigners!  Canadian women dig us; Canadian men................well, let me just say, we've been a lot of fights with Canadian men!" _


----------



## Roudy (Aug 20, 2013)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Lets not get into personal attacks now. At times Yes, I find myself setting the record straight about the lies being told about Jews or Israel by the garden variety anti Semite or Islamofacist types.  But usually they bore me, often repeating the same lies and garbage propaganda over and over, even though they've been proven wrong and embarrassed many times.
> ...


Easy to spot. Just look around.


----------



## Billo_Really (Aug 20, 2013)

Roudy said:


> Easy to spot. Just look around.


I have and I don't see it.

That's why I asked you to show me what you're talking about?


----------



## Lipush (Aug 20, 2013)

Billo_Really said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > There is no implication. Perhaps only an imagined one. Israel has been ignoring lies and false propaganda, and it has just now realized it can no longer ignore this cancer that has been spreading for decades.  Setting the record straight isn't the same as spreading lies and hate.
> ...



Try the Hamas and Islamic-Jihad webs.

That's the pure definition of it.


----------



## Lipush (Aug 20, 2013)

Billo_Really said:


> I find it funny that Israel, instead of doing the right thing and ending the occupation,  prefers to pay people to go online and try to change the _"perception"_ of the occupation.
> 
> I'm sorry, Israel, the only thing you can do with an occupation, _is to end it!_
> 
> That's the only option on your table.



The only option it to fight the enemy till the last drop of blood.

Thank you again for caring, though.


----------



## Saigon (Aug 20, 2013)

Billo_Really said:


> I find it funny that Israel, instead of doing the right thing and ending the occupation,  prefers to pay people to go online and try to change the _"perception"_ of the occupation.
> 
> I'm sorry, Israel, the only thing you can do with an occupation, _is to end it!_
> 
> That's the only option on your table.



This is really an excellent comment, and it's something I think anyone who is truly pro-Israel would agree with. 

The saddest thing about this conflict for me is watching Israel act against its own best interests, out of simple short-term greed.


----------



## Sweet_Caroline (Aug 20, 2013)

Shame that people can't understand the legality of the so-called "occupation."

Occupied from whom?


----------



## Saigon (Aug 20, 2013)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> Shame that people can't understand the legality of the so-called "occupation."
> 
> Occupied from whom?



From the people who have lived in towns like Nalbus or Ramallah for 3,000 years. 

And you know I can prove that, just ad Jews can prove it for Jericho or Jerusalem.

So ask youself - as an Israeli (you are in Israel, I assume) do you really want to say that living in one town for 3,000 years does not constitute legal ownership of land?


----------



## Sweet_Caroline (Aug 20, 2013)

Sorry, it doesn't wash.  The Jews were given the land by the United Nations, and the arabs other lands.  You know that full well.  The best thing the arabs can do is to accept that the land belongs to the Jews, is called Israel, and not Palestine.


----------



## Saigon (Aug 20, 2013)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> Sorry, it doesn't wash.  The Jews were given the land by the United Nations, and the arabs other lands.  You know that full well.  The best thing the arabs can do is to accept that the land belongs to the Jews, is called Israel, and not Palestine.



Exactly that - and the UN gave the West Bank to the Palestinians. It's not difficult stuff, this.


----------



## Sweet_Caroline (Aug 20, 2013)

Saigon said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry, it doesn't wash.  The Jews were given the land by the United Nations, and the arabs other lands.  You know that full well.  The best thing the arabs can do is to accept that the land belongs to the Jews, is called Israel, and not Palestine.
> ...



*WRONG!

This is either the seventh or eighth time of me posting this.  Please take good note.​*
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubDhnM0MUmY]Howard Grief - EC4I middle east conflict documentary: Give Peace A Chance - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Saigon (Aug 20, 2013)

Caroline - 

Can it be as much as a week since I proved beyond any reasonble doubt why your pet theory is useless?




> This is either the seventh or eighth time of me posting this. Please take good note.



You ran away from the questions last time - will you answer them now?


----------



## Bumberclyde (Aug 20, 2013)

* Israel to pay students to defend it online*

I think they're using 5th graders at this board.


----------



## Sweet_Caroline (Aug 20, 2013)

Saigon said:


> Caroline -
> 
> Can it be as much as a week since I proved beyond any reasonble doubt why your pet theory is useless?
> 
> ...



International law, a "pet theory?"

Much as you would like it to be a pet theory, I have to tell you you cannot change the law.  I know, you are wringing your hands in despair, but the simple fact is Israel is entitled to all the land, including the area that is currently under PA control.  The fact that Israel gave it to the PA was wrong, but of course Israel has not acted in her own best interests with giving land away for peace.  

Ah well, you can just keep getting agitated about the fact that the land rightfully belongs to the Jews, and the rest of us can keep watching you all get agitated.  

Here, have a tune.


----------



## Billo_Really (Aug 20, 2013)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> International law, a "pet theory?"
> 
> Much as you would like it to be a pet theory, I have to tell you you cannot change the law.  I know, you are wringing your hands in despair, but the simple fact is Israel is entitled to all the land, including the area that is currently under PA control.  The fact that Israel gave it to the PA was wrong, but of course Israel has not acted in her own best interests with giving land away for peace.
> 
> ...


There is not one international law you can point to that will back you up on that.

There are, however, several UN resolutions (ex: UN Resolution 242) that say you're FOS!


----------



## Sweet_Caroline (Aug 20, 2013)

Billo_Really said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> > International law, a "pet theory?"
> ...




Ah, you don't agree with the UN partition plan of 1922.  Well, that is up to you. You just go ahead and pick and choose what to believe.  The rest of us will go with what the Mandate of 1922 at San Remo agreed.


----------



## Billo_Really (Aug 20, 2013)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> *WRONG!
> 
> This is either the seventh or eighth time of me posting this.  Please take good note.​*
> Howard Grief - EC4I middle east conflict documentary: Give Peace A Chance - YouTube


And how many times do I have to tell you the Balfour Declaration had the caveat that a Jewish homeland could be created, provided the rights of the existing, non-jewish population of that area, was ensured.

But you didn't ensure those rights, you took them away.  In contractual terms, you were in breech of the agreement and therefore, it could not be enforced.


----------



## Bumberclyde (Aug 20, 2013)

Bumberclyde said:


> * Israel to pay students to defend it online*
> 
> I think they're using 5th graders at this board.


----------



## Billo_Really (Aug 20, 2013)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> Ah, you don't agree with the UN partition plan of 1922.  Well, that is up to you. You just go ahead and pick and choose what to believe.  The rest of us will go with what the Mandate of 1922 at San Remo agreed.


And this was part of that agreement...



> _His Majestys Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, *it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine*, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.
> -*Arthur James Balfour [Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs] * _


Why do you keep ignoring that?

You can't cherry-pick the parts of a law you like and throw out the rest.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 20, 2013)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > Sweet_Caroline said:
> ...



Yet after San Remo, after the mandate, after resolution 181, after the declaration of independence, and after the 1848 war, Israel has no land or borders.

If what you say is true, how can that happen?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 20, 2013)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Sweet_Caroline said:
> ...



No matter haw many times you post a lie, it is still a lie.


----------



## toastman (Aug 20, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...



And that goes for your last post as well about Israel having no land or borders


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 20, 2013)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Sweet_Caroline said:
> ...



Post the documents showing where Israel legally acquired any land.

Cue song and dance
3
2
1


----------



## toastman (Aug 20, 2013)

Umm, when Israel declared independence, it was recognized internationally, and by the U.N . 
How can a country that is a member of the U.N not have land lol.

Post any article that suggests Israel has no land. 

Cure song and dance...


----------



## toastman (Aug 20, 2013)

where does it say here that Israel has no land or borders:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 20, 2013)

toastman said:


> Umm, when Israel declared independence, it was recognized internationally, and by the U.N .
> How can a country that is a member of the U.N not have land lol.
> 
> Post any article that suggests Israel has no land.
> ...



More than half a century after independence, David Ben-Gurions normal country still lacks one of the fundamental attributes of a normal state: borders.

http://www.inss.org.il/publications.php?cat=21&incat=&read=203


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Aug 20, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Umm, when Israel declared independence, it was recognized internationally, and by the U.N .
> ...



North Korea and South Korea also use armistice lines to separate their countries.  Are you saying they also don't exist?  Let's also remember that Rocco already disproved your theories, when it concerns the Egyptian and Jordanian borders.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 20, 2013)

toastman said:


> Umm, when Israel declared independence, it was recognized internationally, and by the U.N .
> How can a country that is a member of the U.N not have land lol.
> 
> Post any article that suggests Israel has no land.
> ...



The UN recognizes Israel inside the armistice lines that specifically state are not to be political or territorial boundaries.

The UN's own map of Israel has a disclaimer on land and borders.


----------



## toastman (Aug 20, 2013)

You cannot deny the border agreements that Israel has with Egypt and Jordan. Those are not up for debate. No matter how much you hate Israel, those borders are internationally recognized. Sorry, i know its hard for you to understand


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 20, 2013)

toastman said:


> You cannot deny the border agreements that Israel has with Egypt and Jordan. Those are not up for debate. No matter how much you hate Israel, those borders are internationally recognized. Sorry, i know its hard for you to understand



Israel can get Palestinian land from Egypt and Jordan?

Interesting legal concept.


----------



## toastman (Aug 20, 2013)

Show me where it says they need permission from Palestinians for those border agreements to be valid


----------



## Synthaholic (Aug 20, 2013)

editec said:


> They have to_ pay_ these students?!


well...if they want them to say nice things, sure!


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 20, 2013)

toastman said:


> Show me where it says they need permission from Palestinians for those border agreements to be valid



They are Palestine's borders. Who else has the authority?


----------



## toastman (Aug 20, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Show me where it says they need permission from Palestinians for those border agreements to be valid
> ...



Again, show me where it says the Israels borders are not valid because of what you say.
I have read many articles discussing Israels borders with Egypt and Jordan. Not ONE of them suggest what you are saying. So surely you can show me some article that suggests what you are saying. In the mean time, I'll believe what I read on Wiki and other sites over what a rabid anti - Israeli says.


----------



## RoccoR (Aug 20, 2013)

P F Tinmore,  _et al,_

Who gave the Palestinians any authority over what?  Who are Palestinians anyway?



P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Show me where it says they need permission from Palestinians for those border agreements to be valid
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Palestinians, like the inhabitants of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, and Kuwait were subject of the Empire.  And the Empire handed the control to the Allied Powers.  Where does the Palestinian (an invention of the Allied Powers) assume any control.  Not until 1988 when the PLO declared the Independence of Palestine, and then the power was illusionary.

There are many people that are --- all about the borders.  That is strictly a matter of control.  One can pretend that they have some sort of "right" that makes them relevant.  But the reality is, who has control?  You are irrelevant if you have no control. 

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## toastman (Aug 20, 2013)

*Border with Jordan*

The Israel-Jordan Treaty of Peace was signed on October 26, 1994. The treaty resolved territorial and border issues that were ongoing since the 1948 war. The treaty specified and fully recognized the international border between Israel and Jordan


*Border with Egypt*

The Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty, signed on March 26, 1979 created an officially recognized international border along the 1906 line, with Egypt renouncing all claims to the Gaza Strip.

Borders of Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Why should I believe you Tinmore over this article ?


----------



## Sweet_Caroline (Aug 20, 2013)

Billo_Really said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> > Ah, you don't agree with the UN partition plan of 1922.  Well, that is up to you. You just go ahead and pick and choose what to believe.  The rest of us will go with what the Mandate of 1922 at San Remo agreed.
> ...



And just how has Israel reneged on that?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 20, 2013)

RoccoR said:
			
		

> Palestinians, like the inhabitants of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, and Kuwait were subject of the Empire. And the Empire handed the control to the Allied Powers.



How many people from those countries were removed from their homes to make room for foreign settlers like the Palestinians?


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Aug 20, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, none of them.  But that's the point.  The Arabs shouldn't be so greedy.  It's not fair that the Arabs should get everything, and the Jews nothing.


----------



## Lipush (Aug 20, 2013)

Bumberclyde said:


> * Israel to pay students to defend it online*
> 
> I think they're using 5th graders at this board.



That will be hilarious, taking to mind how many of the Anti-Israeli posters gets owned here every day


----------



## RoccoR (Aug 20, 2013)

Sweet_Caroline,  Billo_Really;  _et al,_

This is all illusion and perception.



Sweet_Caroline said:


> Billo_Really said:
> 
> 
> > Sweet_Caroline said:
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

The Arab Palestinian alienated themselves by adopting a hostile, depraved, and vicious profile.  



			
				Arab Higher Committee Delegation: said:
			
		

> &#8220;The only way to establish partition is first to wipe them out &#8211; man women and child."
> 
> _SOURCE:_ A/AC.21/9  S/676  16 February 1948



The Partition was a UN Plan, a passed UN Resolution, and a cooperative offer.  And this was the Arab Palestinian answer.

When we talk of "civil and religious" rights --- what are we talking about?  Rights for the Arab Palestinian and death for the Jewish Immigrant.

I'm an American, but I can tell you, that is a deal breaker for anyone with half a brain and a survival instinct.  Most Americans, and indeed, most of the world, don't understand the attitude the Arab Palestinian had then, and in 1967, had in 1973, had in 1988, and still has today.  It has not changed.  And the policy of the Palestinian needs to be firmly understood if we are to clearly understand the cause and situation that exists today.



			
				The Way of the Palestinian Then and now! said:
			
		

> *THEN:*
> 
> The Arabs of Palestine made a solemn declaration before the United Nations, before God and history, that they will never submit or yield to any power going to Palestine to enforce partition.​*&#8220;The only way to establish partition is first to wipe them out &#8211; man women and child."*​
> *NOW:*
> ...



The Arab Palestinian has stated its case; having not denied it --- and still promotes it today.  Once the world understands the scope and true nature of the Hostile Arab Palestinian, they will understand the need for containment; and that corrective action is not a denial of Humanitarian Rights or Civil Liberties, but the necessary action taken to quarantine a culture that has no other foundation than that built on violence.  They are self-proclaimed "Jihadist" of the First Order! and Greatest Magnitude!  -  They neither challenge this nor deny it. 

_*Nothing can justify terrorism &#8212; ever.  No grievance, no goal, no cause can excuse terrorist acts. *_
.............................................................................UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon​
Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Sweet_Caroline (Aug 20, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> Sweet_Caroline,  Billo_Really;  _et al,_
> 
> This is all illusion and perception.
> 
> ...



Exactly.  Even though the UN Resolution to divide the land was illegal (as the San Remo Mandate was protected), the arabs still refused the land and even to this very day preach hate.  That is what Israel has to deal with on a daily basis from the Palestinians' government spokespeople, the Palestinian media, random attacks on Jews (including today) every day, etc.

Israel does the best it can under the circumstances, and still cooperates with the Palestinian Authority even though the PA don't officially recognize Israel's right to the land.


----------



## Hoffstra (Aug 20, 2013)

Its disgusting and pathetic that Neo-Zionists feel they can't rely on the natural dispersion of truth to make their arguments. They actually have to recruit and pay people to spew their propaganda.

There are millions upon millions of English speaking Jews around the world, but Israel still has to PAY people to defend their views?

How very sad.

Indeed, openly admitting that they are recruiting and paying people to go into political discussion forums and spew Neo-Zionist and Judeo-Fascist propaganda, puts the integrity, honesty, and authenticity of ALL right-wing Zionists in these forums, into serious question.


----------



## MHunterB (Aug 20, 2013)

"millions upon millions of English speaking Jews"....  LOL!  

I can only guess you're so terrified of 'da JOOOOOOS' that you've forgotten how to count.....there's only 14 million Jews in the entire world.


----------



## Hoffstra (Aug 20, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> "millions upon millions of English speaking Jews"....  LOL!
> 
> I can only guess you're so terrified of 'da JOOOOOOS' that you've forgotten how to count.....there's only 14 million Jews in the entire world.



5 million in the USA.

Hundreds of thousands in Canada and Britain.

more than 6 million in Israel.

Yet Israel is soo desperate to spread its propaganda, that it is forced to PAY people to defend her.

how sad.


----------



## Roudy (Aug 20, 2013)

Billo_Really said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> > *WRONG!
> ...


Allowing 2 million Arab Muslims to live as Israeli citizens with the same rights as the Jews isn't enough?  Ah well, too bad.


----------



## Roudy (Aug 20, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Umm, when Israel declared independence, it was recognized internationally, and by the U.N .
> ...


Israel has no borders? 

Uh okay. Try sneaking into it and tell me how that turns out.


----------



## Hoffstra (Aug 20, 2013)

Roudy said:


> Allowing 2 million Arab Muslims to live as Israeli citizens with the same rights as the Jews isn't enough?  Ah well, too bad.



They routinely discriminate against the rights of Arabs in the West Bank, contrary to the requirements of the Balfour Declaration and Mandate for Palestine.

If Israel wants the right to build in the West Bank, they have to first respect Palestinian human and civil rights.


----------



## Roudy (Aug 20, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Show me where it says they need permission from Palestinians for those border agreements to be valid
> ...


There has never been an Arab Palestine. Israel became Jewish Palestine and Jordan became Arab Palestine...As planned by league of nations and administered by those who controlled the land. Arabs had no control or ownership of the land for 800 years.


----------



## toastman (Aug 20, 2013)

Roudy said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



Rocco and I have dismantled Tinnie's "Israel has no border' comments. I think the best thing to do is let him live in his fantasy world. He seems to be happy there anyway lol


----------



## Roudy (Aug 20, 2013)

Hoffstra said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Allowing 2 million Arab Muslims to live as Israeli citizens with the same rights as the Jews isn't enough?  Ah well, too bad.
> ...


So to recap Israelis indeed treat about 2 million Arabs with equality, and those who are upset are the ones that aren't Israelis, but Arabs who are paying for the consequence of joining with 5 Arab countries in attacking and trying to destroy Israel?  

Now that would be a ridiculous assertion, that even if Israel gets attacked it still has get permission t do what it wants  for land it won in a defensive war.  I bet the Arabs would have committed genocide on any Jew left in the land, had they been the victors in that same war.


----------



## Roudy (Aug 20, 2013)

toastman said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Speaking of paid propagandists. What does it tell you when certain lies are constantly told and retold (such as Israel has no borders) even though they've been totally debunked and exposed as insanity and rubbish, many times?


----------



## Hoffstra (Aug 20, 2013)

Roudy said:


> There has never been an Arab Palestine. Israel became Jewish Palestine and Jordan became Arab Palestine...As planned by league of nations and administered by those who controlled the land. Arabs had no control or ownership of the land for 800 years.



Muslims ruled Palestine for more than 1,200 years, 300+ years more than the Jews.

Between 1949 and 1967, the United States considered the West Bank to be Arab Palestine.


----------



## Hoffstra (Aug 20, 2013)

Roudy said:


> So to recap Israelis indeed treating about 2 million Arabs with equality, and those who are upset are the ones that aren't Israelis, but Arabs who are paying for the consequence of joining with 5 Arab countries in attacking and trying to destroy Israel?
> 
> Now that would be a ridiculous assertion, that even if Israel gets attacked it still has get permission do what it wants  for land it won in a defensive war.  I bet the Arabs would have committed genocide on any Jew left in the land, had they been the victors.



Israelis cannot cite the Balfour Declaration and Palestine Mandate as justification and vindication for their settlement operations in the West Bank while at the same time disregarding the articles of those same agreemants that condition Jewish settlement in all of Palestine upon equal and fair treatment to the non-Jewish population.

They can't have their cake AND eat it too.


----------



## toastman (Aug 20, 2013)

Hoffstra said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > There has never been an Arab Palestine. Israel became Jewish Palestine and Jordan became Arab Palestine...As planned by league of nations and administered by those who controlled the land. Arabs had no control or ownership of the land for 800 years.
> ...



Muslims NEVER ruled Palestine. Owning land and living on it & Ruling land are two different things. Try again Seal


----------



## Hoffstra (Aug 20, 2013)

toastman said:


> Muslims NEVER ruled Palestine. Owning land and living on it & Ruling land are two different things. Try again Seal



Sir, you can't be serious.

Muslims conquered Palestine in the 6th century, ruled it for four hundred years until the Crusaders conquered it.  The Muslims then retook Palestine and ruled it until 1918.

This is fact.


----------



## Bloodrock44 (Aug 20, 2013)

Hoffstra said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Muslims NEVER ruled Palestine. Owning land and living on it & Ruling land are two different things. Try again Seal
> ...



*Israel has it now. Not gonna give it up. Ever. This is fact.*


----------



## toastman (Aug 20, 2013)

Hoffstra said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Muslims NEVER ruled Palestine. Owning land and living on it & Ruling land are two different things. Try again Seal
> ...



Actually, before 1918, it was the Turk who ruled the land. It doesn't matter if they were Muslims, as religion is not the issue here. The fact is, Turks are not Arabs. Arabs never had control over the land.


----------



## Hoffstra (Aug 20, 2013)

toastman said:


> Actually, before 1918, it was the Turk who ruled the land. It doesn't matter if they were Muslims, as religion is not the issue here. The fact is, Turks are not Arabs. Arabs never had control over the land.



Wrong.  The first Muslim conquests of Palestine were by the Arabs.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 20, 2013)

toastman said:


> Show me where it says they need permission from Palestinians for those border agreements to be valid



States shall take resolute steps to eliminate the massive and flagrant violations of the human rights of peoples and human beings affected by situations such as those resulting from apartheid, all forms of racism and racial discrimination, colonialism, foreign domination and occupation, aggression, foreign interference and threats against national sovereignty, national unity and territorial integrity, threats of war and refusal to recognize the fundamental right of peoples to self-determination.

http://ir.lawnet.fordham.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1770&context=ilj


----------



## RoccoR (Aug 20, 2013)

Hoffstra,  _et al,_

Well, there is a certain amount of truth here.



Hoffstra said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > So to recap Israelis indeed treating about 2 million Arabs with equality, and those who are upset are the ones that aren't Israelis, but Arabs who are paying for the consequence of joining with 5 Arab countries in attacking and trying to destroy Israel?
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

For most researchers, the reason the US and other countries see the West Bank and Gaza Strip as the "State of Palestine," is because those areas were:


Identified in Part II, Section A, of  GA Resolution 181(II) as the Arab State.
And the Declaration of Independence for Palestine (Annex III, A/43/827  S/20278  18 November 1988), attached conditions of international legitimacy to GA Resolution 181(II) that outline the Arab State (Palestine) and  "sympathetic consideration should be given to its application for admission to membership in the United Nations."

As a general position, nearly everyone understood that customary law does not permit quasi-annexation by allowing its own civilian population into _(by whatever mechanism)_ occupied territory for the purpose of establishing permanent residences.  There has to be some special circumstances or overwhelming necessity, to justify the establishment of settlements.  It was going to be an issue at some point and a matter of compensation and reparation.

*(EPILOG SIDEBAR)*

Israel may have struck-it rich.  It has had several discoveries of natural gas in the Levant Basin in the last decade.  About 30 of the 40 trillion cubic feet known now, of the gas discoveries to date are Israeli and could generate $300B in royalties on just the fractional portion of the findings that have been assessed; or more.  

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## toastman (Aug 20, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Show me where it says they need permission from Palestinians for those border agreements to be valid
> ...



Hmm interesting. Now, show me where it says that permission was needed from the Palestinian Arabs, who had no sovereignty over the land, in order for the Israelis to declare borders in 1979 and 1994. Borders that are internationally recognized


----------



## RoccoR (Aug 20, 2013)

P F Tinmore,  _ et al,_

This is a citation from a "School Textbook," not a treaty, not a Convention, not a UN Resolution.  It is a school "essay" by a Jesuit Priest, advisor to Rome and law professor.



P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Show me where it says they need permission from Palestinians for those border agreements to be valid
> ...


*(QUESTIONS)*


What basic question does this passage answer?  
What allegation against Israel does it challenge?

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Billo_Really (Aug 20, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> Sweet_Caroline,  Billo_Really;  _et al,_
> 
> This is all illusion and perception.


What is "illusion" and "perception"?

Could you be a little more succinct here?



RoccoR said:


> The Arab Palestinian alienated themselves by adopting a hostile, depraved, and vicious profile.


After years of zionists treating them like garbage.

If you constantly treat someone like shit, don't act surprised when they stop being nice.



RoccoR said:


> The Partition was a UN Plan, a passed UN Resolution, and a cooperative offer.  And this was the Arab Palestinian answer.



Why do you keep bringing up resolution 181?  It needed a Security Counsel vote to make it binding and that never happened.  And from that point on, it became an un-enforcable document.

As for the resolution itself, it was not a fair solution for the arabs living in the area at the time.  They owned 85% of the land (jews owned 7%), but the partition plan wanted to give over 50% of all of Palestine to the zionists.  



> _In the whole of Palestine, *Arabs owned 85 percent of the land*, while Jews owned less than 7 percent, which remained the case up until the time of Israels creation.
> 
> Yet, despite these facts, the U.N. partition recommendation had called for more than half of the land of Palestine to be given to the Zionists for their Jewish State. The truth is that no Arab could be reasonably expected to accept such an unjust proposal._


That "Plan" was shot down and is no longer relevent.




RoccoR said:


> When we talk of "civil and religious" rights --- what are we talking about?  Rights for the Arab Palestinian and death for the Jewish Immigrant.


We're not talking about "religious" rights at all.  Religion has nothing to do with this.  We're not really talking about "civil" rights, either.  We're talking about "inalienable" rights.  You cannot move into an area and automatically have more rights than the people already living there.




RoccoR said:


> I'm an American, but I can tell you, that is a deal breaker for anyone with half a brain and a survival instinct.  Most Americans, and indeed, most of the world, don't understand the attitude the Arab Palestinian had then, and in 1967, had in 1973, had in 1988, and still has today.  It has not changed.  And the policy of the Palestinian needs to be firmly understood if we are to clearly understand the cause and situation that exists today.


What about the policy of the zionists? 

Don't we need to understand what their intentions were during the migration into Palestine?   

Because it has a lot to do with   Palestinian attitudes towards Israeli's.


RoccoR said:


> The Way of the Palestinian Then and now!
> 
> *THEN:*
> 
> The Arabs of Palestine made a solemn declaration before the United Nations, before God and history, that they will never submit or yield to any power going to Palestine to enforce partition.​*The only way to establish partition is first to wipe them out  man women and child."*​.


Because it wasn't fair and should not have been enforced.


RoccoR said:


> *NOW:*
> 
> Article 13 HAMAS Covenant:  There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad.
> Article 9 Palestine National Charter: Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine.​


That is not what is now.  Hamas leaders have said on more than one occasion, they're willing to accept a two-state solution, but Israel won't go for it.


RoccoR said:


> The Arab Palestinian has stated its case; having not denied it --- and still promotes it today.  Once the world understands the scope and true nature of the Hostile Arab Palestinian, they will understand the need for containment; and that corrective action is not a denial of Humanitarian Rights or Civil Liberties, but the necessary action taken to quarantine a culture that has no other foundation than that built on violence.  They are self-proclaimed "Jihadist" of the First Order! and Greatest Magnitude!  -  They neither challenge this nor deny it.


They are hostile, because Israel has occupied their land for almost half a century and are still treating them like garbage.

  Christ, Palestinian's can't even go fishing without getting shot at!


RoccoR said:


> _*Nothing can justify terrorism  ever.  No grievance, no goal, no cause can excuse terrorist acts. *_
> .............................................................................UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon​


I agree with that.  

Do you excuse the jewish terrorist massacre at Deir Yassan?


----------



## Billo_Really (Aug 20, 2013)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> And just how has Israel reneged on that?


By establishing racist, apartheid polices on land ownership and labour.  By driving out over 700,000 arabs through the use of jewish terrorist groups like Irgun.  And basically treating the arabs like they less human than they are.


----------



## Saigon (Aug 20, 2013)

Toastman - 



> Now, show me where it says that permission was needed from the Palestinian Arabs, who had no sovereignty over the land, in order for the Israelis to declare borders in 1979 and 1994. *Borders that are internationally recognized*



Who recognises Israel's 'ownership' of the West Bank or Gaza?


----------



## Billo_Really (Aug 20, 2013)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> Exactly.  Even though the UN Resolution to divide the land was illegal (as the San Remo Mandate was protected), the arabs still refused the land and even to this very day preach hate.  That is what Israel has to deal with on a daily basis from the Palestinians' government spokespeople, the Palestinian media, random attacks on Jews (including today) every day, etc.
> 
> Israel does the best it can under the circumstances, and still cooperates with the Palestinian Authority even though the PA don't officially recognize Israel's right to the land.


End the occupation and you'll end the hate.

BTW, I don't see any of your posts preaching love for the Pals, so maybe you should deal with your own hatred of them first, before talking about their hatred of you?


----------



## Billo_Really (Aug 20, 2013)

Saigon said:


> Who recognises Israel's 'ownership' of the West Bank or Gaza?


No one.  Not a single country on the planet does.  It's been that way for almost 50 years and it's not going to change.


----------



## RoccoR (Aug 21, 2013)

Billo_Really,  _et al,_





Billo_Really said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > The Arab Palestinian alienated themselves by adopting a hostile, depraved, and vicious profile.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

This is the kind of excuse you expect from a child.  This is a defense of "they were bad because they were abused as a child."

Nonsense.



Billo_Really said:


> Why do you keep bringing up resolution 181?  It needed a Security Counsel vote to make it binding and that never happened.  And from that point on, it became an un-enforcable document.


*(COMMENT)*

You keep saying that, it doesn't make it true.  GA RES 181(II) was never supposed to be a binding resolution (a command).  It was a resolution that made an offer and could be accepted or rejected.  The Jewish Agency Accepted and the Arab High Committee rejected.  The first implementation meeting (UNITED NATIONS PALESTINE COMMISSION) set up by the Security Council A/AC.21/7 29 January 1948 recorded the acceptance and rejection.  

The Security Council, after "having received and considered the application of Israel for membership in the United Nations," favorably recommended the membership to the GA.

It was later that the PLO used it as the instrument for establishing the State of Palestine.  And, again, a decade later, acknowledged it again.



Billo_Really said:


> As for the resolution itself, it was not a fair solution for the arabs living in the area at the time.  They owned 85% of the land (jews owned 7%), but the partition plan wanted to give over 50% of all of Palestine to the zionists.
> 
> That "Plan" was shot down and is no longer relevent.


*(COMMENT)*

Believe what you want.  When I talked of an Illusion, this is exactly the kind of logic to which I was referring.  You don't even acknowledge your own leadership.



Billo_Really said:


> We're not talking about "religious" rights at all.  Religion has nothing to do with this.  We're not really talking about "civil" rights, either.  We're talking about "inalienable" rights.  You cannot move into an area and automatically have more rights than the people already living there.


*(COMMENT)*

But you can be invited to immigrate and acquire the same rights.



Billo_Really said:


> What about the policy of the zionists?
> 
> Don't we need to understand what their intentions were during the migration into Palestine?


*(COMMENT)*

The intention was simple.  Everyone knew them.  To establish a Jewish National Home.  



Billo_Really said:


> Because it has a lot to do with   Palestinian attitudes towards Israeli's.  Because it wasn't fair and should not have been enforced.
> That is not what is now.  Hamas leaders have said on more than one occasion, they're willing to accept a two-state solution, but Israel won't go for it.


*(COMMENT)*

In what official forum have they said that?  

You better read your own web site:  



Khaled Mashaal said:


> Meshaals remarks came during an exclusive interview with the American Foreign Policy magazine, through which he stressed on Hamass rejection of the two-state solution and criticized the recent visit of U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry.
> 
> *SOURCE:* http://occupiedpalestine.wordpress.com/2013/05/16/meshaal-renews-rejection-of-a-two-state-solution/



HAMAS and FATAH say a lot of things, then turn around and say something different.  It is not uncommon with Palestinians.  They reject, GA/RES/181, then the accept it, then they use it, and now you reject it.  It is a familiar pattern.



RoccoR said:


> The Arab Palestinian has stated its case; having not denied it --- and still promotes it today.  Once the world understands the scope and true nature of the Hostile Arab Palestinian, they will understand the need for containment; and that corrective action is not a denial of Humanitarian Rights or Civil Liberties, but the necessary action taken to quarantine a culture that has no other foundation than that built on violence.  They are self-proclaimed "Jihadist" of the First Order! and Greatest Magnitude!  -  They neither challenge this nor deny it.


They are hostile, because Israel has occupied their land for almost half a century and are still treating them like garbage.



Billo_Really said:


> Christ, Palestinian's can't even go fishing without getting shot at!


*(COMMENT)*

If you are Palestinian, and you even look like you're going into the Levant Basin, you're in trouble.  HAMAS is, and has been, an asymmetric fighting activity that openly promotes Jihad.  Why would anyone risk letting them into the Basin with all that investment there?  That would be an unacceptable risk.  It would be like opening the doors of a bank to thieves.



RoccoR said:


> _*Nothing can justify terrorism  ever.  No grievance, no goal, no cause can excuse terrorist acts. *_
> .............................................................................UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon​





Billo_Really said:


> I agree with that.
> 
> Do you excuse the jewish terrorist massacre at Deir Yassan?


*(COMMENT)*

Of course not; not any more than I could condone the Hebron massacre (1929), perpetrated by the Arabs.  Neither party has clean hands. 

Name.........................Date.........................Responsible Party........................Death Toll
Jerusalem Riots..........December 2, 1947.......Arab residents.............62 Jewish, 32 Arab
Gush Etzion Convoy....December 11, 1947............Arab...............................10
Beth Nabala...............December 14, 1947.......Arab Legion..........................14
al-Tira.......................December 12, 1947..........Irgun.................................13
al-Tantura.................May 22-23, 1948.............Haganah	
al-Khisas...................December 18, 1947.........Haganah.............................10
Haifa Oil Refinery......December 30, 1947......Arab workers..........................39
Balad al-Shaykh.........December 31, 1947.........Haganah.............................60
Jaffa	........................January 4, 1948................Jewish...............................30
Haifa........................January 16, 1948..............Jewish................................31
Lamed Hey...............January 16, 1948................Arab.................................35
Jerusalem Bombing...February 1, 1948................Arab	.................................6+
Ben Yehuda 
Street Bombing.........February 11, 1948..............Arab (with British assistance)	 52
Sa'sa'.......................February 14, 1948............Jewish...............................11
Jewish Agency..........March 11, 1948...........Arab irregulars........................12
al-Husayniyya...........March 13, 1948................Jewish...............................30​
And so on and so on!

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## RoccoR (Aug 21, 2013)

Billo_Really;  _et al,_

There is a slight of hand trick here.



Billo_Really said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > Who recognises Israel's 'ownership' of the West Bank or Gaza?
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

You see, no one recognizes Israeli ownership, because Israel never claimed to own it and really doesn't want it.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Roudy (Aug 21, 2013)

Hoffstra said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > There has never been an Arab Palestine. Israel became Jewish Palestine and Jordan became Arab Palestine...As planned by league of nations and administered by those who controlled the land. Arabs had no control or ownership of the land for 800 years.
> ...


There was no such thing as an Arab Palestinian.  The area was part of the Ottoman Empire for 800 years, and then under the control of the British the collapse of the Ottomans Turks.  

Last I checked, Turks and Arabs were very different people.  

The name "West Bank" is a also new invention for Arabs, just as the label "Palestinian" is.  It was after 3000 years, in 1948 that invading Arabs changed correct name of the region, the name Judaea and Samaria of Ancient Israel, to this made up name "West Bank".  And 1967 was approximately the time when invading Arabs adopted the name "Palestinian", the name only referred to Jews of the region.

And why didn't Arabs establish this mythical Palestine when they controlled the "West Bank" from 1948 to 1967?  Because no such thing existed. 

Here's how it was supposed to be:


----------



## Roudy (Aug 21, 2013)

Hoffstra said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > So to recap Israelis indeed treating about 2 million Arabs with equality, and those who are upset are the ones that aren't Israelis, but Arabs who are paying for the consequence of joining with 5 Arab countries in attacking and trying to destroy Israel?
> ...


Non of the made up "interpretations" of said declarations say Israel has to get attacked by groups of Arab countries intending to destroy it, and then play nice if it wins in that war. And that goes for any country.


----------



## Billo_Really (Aug 21, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> There is a slight of hand trick here.
> 
> You see, no one recognizes Israeli ownership, because Israel never claimed to own it and really doesn't want it.


I hear ya!

It's common practice for people to build homes on land they don't want.


----------



## Saigon (Aug 21, 2013)

Roudy - 



> It was after 3000 years, in 1948 that invading Arabs changed correct name of the region, the name Judaea and Samaria of Ancient Israel, to this made up name "West Bank"



So it is not true that first Herotodus and then Romans used the term "Palestine" dating back five centuries before Christ?

Also, if Arabs only used the term 'Palestine' from 1948, why was the Mandate region called 'Palestine' from 1918?


----------



## Roudy (Aug 21, 2013)

Saigon said:


> Roudy -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Been there done that, like five times. Today's Arabs are not related to ancient Palestinians, they are Arabs identical to their neighboring Arabs in every way. In fact prior to Yasser Arafat hijacking the name Palestinian as an identity for his people, most Arabs considered it an insult to be called by that name, because it usually meant They were being called a Jew.


----------



## Lipush (Aug 21, 2013)

Hoffstra said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > There has never been an Arab Palestine. Israel became Jewish Palestine and Jordan became Arab Palestine...As planned by league of nations and administered by those who controlled the land. Arabs had no control or ownership of the land for 800 years.
> ...



So, basically you admit Palestine is Jordan.

Nice touche.

Now we're getting somewhere.


----------



## Saigon (Aug 21, 2013)

Roudy said:


> Been there done that, like five times. Today's Arabs are not related to ancient Palestinians, they are Arabs identical to their neighboring Arabs in every way. In fact prior to Yasser Arafat hijacking the name Palestinian as an identity for his people, most Arabs considered it an insult to be called by that name, because it usually meant They were being called a Jew.



If Yasser Arafat "hi-jacked" the term - why was it in such common use at the turn of the century,even before he was born? Why was the Mandate termed 'Palestine'?

Is it not true that there were Palestinian national newspapers being printed before WWI?

btw, Austrians are similar to Germans in every way. Does Austria not exist?


----------



## Billo_Really (Aug 21, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> This is the kind of excuse you expect from a child.  This is a defense of "they were bad because they were abused as a child."
> 
> Nonsense.


That's not it at all.  Arabs didn't, all of a sudden, become hostile towards zionists.  They became hostile for a reason.  And that reason was zionists being hostile towards them, terrorizing their residents, driving them off their land, refusing to allow the ones not driven off,  to work on jewish land.  Practicing racist and apartheid policies.  

Your scenario is when a child strikes at someone else who is totally unrelated to his abuse and someone is just making excuses for his actions.  If someone grows up as an abused child, it doesn't give them the right to rob a bank or murder someone they're angry with.  But rising up against the person directly related to the childs abuse, is not the same thing.  

Do you think it is wrong for a child to strike back at the one who was abusing him for years? Do you think the kids who were molested by Jerry Sandusky, don't have a right to kick his ass?  Well, zionists have been abusing the arabs ever since they migrated into the area and those arabs had every right to defend themselves.

Let me put it this way, there were no major incidents of violence between arabs and jews living in that area, until the zionists showed up.





RoccoR said:


> You keep saying that, it doesn't make it true.  GA RES 181(II) was never supposed to be a binding resolution (a command).  It was a resolution that made an offer and could be accepted or rejected.  The Jewish Agency Accepted and the Arab High Committee rejected.  The first implementation meeting (UNITED NATIONS PALESTINE COMMISSION) set up by the Security Council A/AC.21/7 29 January 1948 recorded the acceptance and rejection.
> 
> The Security Council, after "having received and considered the application of Israel for membership in the United Nations," favorably recommended the membership to the GA.
> 
> It was later that the PLO used it as the instrument for establishing the State of Palestine.  And, again, a decade later, acknowledged it again.


Offers, are not enforcable.  Non-binding resolutions, are not enforcable.  181, carry's no legal weight whatsoever.  So why keep talking as though it does?





RoccoR said:


> Believe what you want.  When I talked of an Illusion, this is exactly the kind of logic to which I was referring.  You don't even acknowledge your own leadership.


You lost me here.

I have no idea what you're talking about.




RoccoR said:


> But you can be invited to immigrate and acquire the same rights.


Not when you violate the terms of the immigration laws at the time.  And no one said you could strip the indigenous population of their rights.





RoccoR said:


> The intention was simple.  Everyone knew them.  To establish a Jewish National Home.


 At the expense of the non-jewish population already living there for generations.




RoccoR said:


> In what official forum have they said that?


Here's one of them... 




> _[in 2008] Hamas accepted a Palestinian state based on internationally recognized (pre-1967) borders, in accordance with UN resolutions, with full sovereignty and its capital in Jerusalem, but this has been ignored. Hamas also offered a 10-year truce, also ignored._


...but it's a ridiculous conversation.  As long as Israel maintains the occupation, there's no reason for peace.  Israel has to end the occupation before any negotiations on a lasting peace can even start. The first step is Israel's, not the Palestinian's.



RoccoR said:


> You better read your own web site:


My own website?  What are you talking about?  




RoccoR said:


> HAMAS and FATAH say a lot of things, then turn around and say something different.  It is not uncommon with Palestinians.  They reject, GA/RES/181, then the accept it, then they use it, and now you reject it.  It is a familiar pattern.


Don't even go there.  

The Israeli's have a long list of re-neging on their agreements.




RoccoR said:


> If you are Palestinian, and you even look like you're going into the Levant Basin, you're in trouble.  HAMAS is, and has been, an asymmetric fighting activity that openly promotes Jihad.  Why would anyone risk letting them into the Basin with all that investment there?  That would be an unacceptable risk.  It would be like opening the doors of a bank to thieves.


I'm not talking about Levant Basin.  I'm talking about Gazan territorial waters.  Which extends to only 3 miles off their shore.  International law allows  12 miles, but the Israeli's only allow Gazans 3.  And in that 3 mile limit, they shoot at their fisherman.  How fucked is someone, who shoots at people fishing?

I'm glad you at least admit there is violence on both sides.  On that, we are in agreement.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 21, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  _ et al,_
> 
> This is a citation from a "School Textbook," not a treaty, not a Convention, not a UN Resolution.  It is a school "essay" by a Jesuit Priest, advisor to Rome and law professor.
> 
> ...



Indeed, this is from an essay by a law professor titled:

*SOVEREIGNTY, HUMAN RIGHTS, AND SELF-DETERMINATION:
THE MEANING OF INTERNATIONAL LAW*​
Even though Palestine was not mentioned in this essay, my quote above is the most succinct definition of the situation in Palestine that I have ever seen.


----------



## toastman (Aug 21, 2013)

Saigon said:


> Toastman -
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I was talking about the borders between Israel & Egypt an Israel & Jordan


----------



## Saigon (Aug 21, 2013)

Toastman- 

I would agree that Israel's borders with Egypt, Lebanon and Jordan are recognised, and thatwith Syria is largely agreed upon. 

That said, I think it's fair to say that Israel's likely annexation of the West Bank will never be recognised by anyone.


----------



## Bumberclyde (Aug 21, 2013)

Syria is and always has been a waste of good sand. I say pound Syria out of existence and then give it to the Pals or the Jews, either one works for me.


----------



## toastman (Aug 21, 2013)

Bumberclyde said:


> Syria is and always has been a waste of good sand. I say pound Syria out of existence and then give it to the Pals or the Jews, either one works for me.



How old are you ?


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 21, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> Hoffstra,  _et al,_
> 
> Well, there is a certain amount of truth here.
> 
> ...


How could those $300B in royalties be used to make amends for Israel's Original Sin?
Right of Return or Reparations?

"This growing violence culminated in Israel's ruthless 1947-49 'War of Independence,' in which at least 750,000 Palestinian men, women, and children were expelled from their homes by numerically superior Israeli forces  half before any Arab armies joined the war. 

"This massive humanitarian disaster is known as The Catastrophe, al Nakba in Arabic.8

"Zionist forces committed 33 massacres and destroyed 531 Palestinian towns. Author Norman Finkelstein states: 'According to the former director of the Israeli army archives, "in almost every village occupied by us during the War... acts were committed which are defined as war crimes, such as murders, massacres, and rapes"...Uri Milstein, the authoritative Israeli military historian of the 1948 war, goes one step further, maintaining that *every skirmish ended in a massacre of Arabs*.'"

The Catastrophe - Al Nakba


----------



## toastman (Aug 21, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Hoffstra,  _et al,_
> ...



How come you never mention the massacres commited by the Palestinians ?


----------



## Sweet_Caroline (Aug 21, 2013)

*The 48 war was the was the result of the Palestinians together with their Arab allies to perform ethnic cleansing on the Jews and their failure to complete it.

Every single Jew in the parts of the Mandate seized by the Arabs was expelled from their homes. No exceptions. They even dynamited the entire ancient Jewish quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem in an attempt to wipe out the history of Jewish residence there. 

They also made it illegal for a Jew to live in the areas of the former Mandate that they controlled, including East Jerusalem, West Bank, Gaza and Jordan.

850,000 Jews were also forced from the Arab countries.

After the 5 Arab armies attacked Israel in 48,
Haj Amin Al Husseini stated:
I declare a holy war, my muslim brothers! Murder the Jews! Murder them all!
The Arab League Secretary, General Azzam Pasha declared a holy war. He said, This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades.

CAMERA Snapshots: Distorted Quotes to Defend Distorted Maps*


----------



## High_Gravity (Aug 21, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> JERUSALEM (AP)  Israel is looking to hire university students to post pro-Israel messages on social media networks  without needing to identify themselves as government-linked, officials said Wednesday.
> 
> The Israeli prime minister's office said in a statement Wednesday that students on Israeli university campuses would receive full or partial scholarships to combat anti-Semitism and calls to boycott Israel online. It said students' messages would parallel statements by government officials.
> 
> ...



So?


----------



## Sweet_Caroline (Aug 21, 2013)

High_Gravity said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > JERUSALEM (AP) &#8212; Israel is looking to hire university students to post pro-Israel messages on social media networks &#8212; without needing to identify themselves as government-linked, officials said Wednesday.
> ...



And some on here think some of the pro-Israel posters on here are being paid!  One even panicked about it and started up a thread elsewhere about the subject.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Aug 21, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Hoffstra,  _et al,_
> ...



To use an old expression--the Palestinians gave as good as they got...and then some.


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 21, 2013)

toastman said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



"Law of Return (1950)Grants right of immigration to Jews born anywhere in the world. Amended in 1970 to extend this right to 'a child and a grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew.' 

"A 'Jew' is defined as 'a person who was born of a Jewish mother or has become converted to Judaism and who is not a member of another religion.'

"Non-Jewish native-born Palestinians  most importantly those who fled during the Zionist massacres in 1947 and 1948  are in most cases prevented from returning."

Israel's Apartheid Laws


----------



## RoccoR (Aug 21, 2013)

georgephillip,   _et al,_

It depends on the perspective and the outcome of mediation.



georgephillip said:


> How could those $300B in royalties be used to make amends for Israel's Original Sin?
> Right of Return or Reparations?


*(COMMENT)*

It would appear that, in some respects, both sides have claims for damages.  It is not the case that it is a one-sided affair.  Normally, the loser of a military engagement, pays the war indemnity; for the reparations in financial liability for damage caused, restitution for terrorist actions against non-combatants, and compensated by the property or monetary allowances for war damages.

It would seem clear, at the outset, that the Hostile Arab Palestinians owe more than the Israelis.  But the Israelis may want to mitigate much of it in lieu of achieving more than the suggested HAMAS decade of peace.



georgephillip said:


> "This growing violence culminated in Israel's ruthless 1947-49 'War of Independence,' in which at least 750,000 Palestinian men, women, and children were expelled from their homes by numerically superior Israeli forces &#8211; half before any Arab armies joined the war.


*(COMMENT)*

This is an argument juxtaposed.  Quite frequently it is mentioned that the Partition was unfair because there were many, many more Arab than there were Jewish Immigrants.  Yet, every loss and (alleged) massacre is based on the "numerically superior Israeli forces."

Arguments suggest that the Israelis started the (alleged) ethnic cleansing "before the war."  Yet the first engagement was Hebron (1929) and 1929 Safed riots (1929); not excluding the Palestinian namesake today recognizes Izz ad-Din al-Qassam as well as Haj Amin Al-Husseini (the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem). 

But even before then, one of the major incidents that triggered regimentation of Jewish Defense Forces was the inflammatory anti-Zionist rhetoric of Amin al-Husseini which instigated the April 1920, uprising in the Old City (Nebi Musa riots) that caused 50,000 Arabs to attack Jews.  It was after these attacks that the Haganah (1920) emerged as a defense force.  The Irgun (1931) did not emerge until the Black Hand of al-Qassam began operations.

The history is very clear on this point, despite the FAISAL-WEIZMANN AGREEMENT (3 January 1919) which pledged the "closest possible, collaboration in the development of the Arab State and Palestine," the Arab leadership was xenophobic and determined to exercise force in expelling the Jewish Immigrant.  That legacy lives on today.

It must also be remembered that it is the "official policy" of HAMAS and the Palestinian National Authority to consider peaceful initiatives, peaceful solutions, conventions,  proposals and international conferences as a waste of time and vain endeavors; in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement.  The Hostile Arab Palestinian (HoAP) people, expressing themselves by armed Palestinian revolution, reject all solutions which are substitutes for the total liberation of Palestine and reject all proposals aimed at the liquidation of the Palestinian cause, or at its internationalization.  The HoAP see Palestine as an indivisible part of the greater Arab homeland, and the Palestinian people are an integral part of the Arab nation; with the boundaries it had during the British Mandate, is an indivisible territorial unit.  That is why we will never be able to rationally explain to our friend "P F Tinmore" the issue of boundaries.

Further, it is important to remember that, no matter what any other source may claim, it is the "official policy" of HAMAS and the Palestinian National Authority to achieve these objectives and goal, not through peaceful solutions, but through jihad and armed struggle.  And I don't think that you will find any nation (outside the Arab World) that doesn't consider the "jihadist" as a "terrorist."  Even within the Arab world, being a "jihadist" or a "muslim extremist" had dropped out of favor; for cause.  

The "official policy" that makes the HoAP such a distinctive activity that uses  the threat of violence for political purposes:


Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine.
There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad.

This is the legacy of the HoAP; it is what defines them, and has defined them since the Nebi Musa riots (1920).  Whatever else they may claim to be, as long as in the shadow their "official policy" is "jihad" and "armed struggle" --- they are a threat to humanity; and the human rights of every member of our species.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Hoffstra (Aug 21, 2013)

Lipush said:


> So, basically you admit Palestine is Jordan.
> 
> Nice touche.
> 
> Now we're getting somewhere.



No, Arab Palestine is the West Bank.

Even the US government said this.


----------



## Hoffstra (Aug 21, 2013)

Roudy said:


> The name "West Bank" is a also new invention for Arabs, just as the label "Palestinian" is.  It was after 3000 years, in 1948 that invading Arabs changed correct name of the region, the name Judaea and Samaria of Ancient Israel, to this made up name "West Bank".



Judaea and Samaria was never the common name for the West Bank.

Its a political invention of Judeo-Fascists.


----------



## MHunterB (Aug 21, 2013)

Hoffstra said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > The name "West Bank" is a also new invention for Arabs, just as the label "Palestinian" is.  It was after 3000 years, in 1948 that invading Arabs changed correct name of the region, the name Judaea and Samaria of Ancient Israel, to this made up name "West Bank".
> ...



And of course you've got copious reliable scholarly sources for that - which you're going to link to or at least identify. You being the 'new guy' here and all, with no 'track record' .........


----------



## MHunterB (Aug 21, 2013)

How could those $300B in royalties be used to make amends for Israel's Original Sin?
Right of Return or Reparations?

"This growing violence culminated in Israel's ruthless 1947-49 'War of Independence,' in which at least 750,000 Palestinian men, women, and children were expelled from their homes by numerically superior Israeli forces &#8211; half before any Arab armies joined the war. 

"This massive humanitarian disaster is known as &#8216;The Catastrophe,&#8217; al Nakba in Arabic.8

"Zionist forces committed 33 massacres and destroyed 531 Palestinian towns. Author Norman Finkelstein states: 'According to the former director of the Israeli army archives, "in almost every village occupied by us during the War... acts were committed which are defined as war crimes, such as murders, massacres, and rapes"...Uri Milstein, the authoritative Israeli military historian of the 1948 war, goes one step further, maintaining that &#8216;every skirmish ended in a massacre of Arabs.'"


*So, Georgie - you think that Alison Weir's webstain is a reliable and accurate source of info? 

It's amusing that a commie would chose to quote Milstein, given some of his other views on historical events:   he wrote a book saying the Deir Yassin "massacre" never occurred, and has written that Russia planned to attack Germany in '41  Uri Milstein - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 
*


----------



## toastman (Aug 21, 2013)

Hoffstra said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > The name "West Bank" is a also new invention for Arabs, just as the label "Palestinian" is.  It was after 3000 years, in 1948 that invading Arabs changed correct name of the region, the name Judaea and Samaria of Ancient Israel, to this made up name "West Bank".
> ...



Saying what you just said is for _Islamo-Fascists _


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 21, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> How could those $300B in royalties be used to make amends for Israel's Original Sin?
> Right of Return or Reparations?
> 
> "This growing violence culminated in Israel's ruthless 1947-49 'War of Independence,' in which at least 750,000 Palestinian men, women, and children were expelled from their homes by numerically superior Israeli forces  half before any Arab armies joined the war.
> ...


Yeah, "Marg."
I think Uri and Alison are at least as reliable sources of information for events in Israel/Palestine as you are:
"After completing his service in the IDF in 1960, (Uri Milstein) studied economics, philosophy and political science at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. He wrote his PhD on religion and legislation in Israel. 

"After the Six-Day War, he published War of the Paratroops, and at the beginning of 1973 he published a military history of the early days of Israeli statehood, In Blood And Fire Yehuda. 

"In the 1980s, he taught military history at the IDF Command and Staff College. In 1989, Milstein published the first volume of his series on the War of Independence, in which he alleged flawed functioning of commanders who were considered heroes in Israel. In 1993, he published Crisis and Its Conclusion, criticizing the functioning of the IDF in the Yom Kippur War."
Uri Milstein - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Hossfly (Aug 26, 2013)

Hoffstra said:


> Its disgusting and pathetic that Neo-Zionists feel they can't rely on the natural dispersion of truth to make their arguments. They actually have to recruit and pay people to spew their propaganda.
> 
> There are millions upon millions of English speaking Jews around the world, but Israel still has to PAY people to defend their views?
> 
> ...


Perhaps some NeoNazi/WhiteSupremacist/Islamofascist group can give some kind of stipend to Hoffstra since it is obvious that he is an anti-Semite.  By the way, Hoffstra, even though you threw in an extra "f" to your screen name, are you trying to tell us that you went to Hofstra University on Long Island and actually had to mingle with so many Jewish students there?  Oh, the horror of it!!!  Let's face it; people like Hoffstra are a dime a dozen, just like the people you find on sites like Stormfront.


----------



## toastman (Aug 26, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> Hoffstra said:
> 
> 
> > Its disgusting and pathetic that Neo-Zionists feel they can't rely on the natural dispersion of truth to make their arguments. They actually have to recruit and pay people to spew their propaganda.
> ...



The thing with him though is that people are getting ripped off on their dime


----------



## Hoffstra (Aug 26, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> Perhaps some NeoNazi/WhiteSupremacist/Islamofascist group can give some kind of stipend to Hoffstra since it is obvious that he is an anti-Semite.  By the way, Hoffstra, even though you threw in an extra "f" to your screen name, are you trying to tell us that you went to Hofstra University on Long Island and actually had to mingle with so many Jewish students there?  Oh, the horror of it!!!  Let's face it; people like Hoffstra are a dime a dozen, just like the people you find on sites like Stormfront.



Accusing all who oppose right wing extremism of being anti-Semites is probably Rule #1 for paid agents of Hasbara.


----------



## Hossfly (Aug 26, 2013)

Hoffstra said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Perhaps some NeoNazi/WhiteSupremacist/Islamofascist group can give some kind of stipend to Hoffstra since it is obvious that he is an anti-Semite.  By the way, Hoffstra, even though you threw in an extra "f" to your screen name, are you trying to tell us that you went to Hofstra University on Long Island and actually had to mingle with so many Jewish students there?  Oh, the horror of it!!!  Let's face it; people like Hoffstra are a dime a dozen, just like the people you find on sites like Stormfront.
> ...


So, tell us, Hoffstra, are you on any of the other forums here condemning what is happening in the rest of the Middle East plus Southeast Asia and Africa, or don't you care what is happening there and just are obsessed with Israel and the Jews and give those extremists who are operating in those different areas a pass?  So tell us, oh great humanitarian, who is paying you to give a pass to those who are so busy murdering innocent people and desecrating and/or burning down their houses of worship


----------



## RoccoR (Aug 26, 2013)

Hoffstra,  _et al,_

I'm not exactly following your path.

Are you in support of the "right wing extremist?"  
....................................OR....................................  
Are you supporting Palestinian Covenant/Charter policy?
....................................AND....................................
And why would you be concerned with Israeli Public Diplomacy if you can explain it all away?​


Hoffstra said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Perhaps some NeoNazi/WhiteSupremacist/Islamofascist group can give some kind of stipend to Hoffstra since it is obvious that he is an anti-Semite.  By the way, Hoffstra, even though you threw in an extra "f" to your screen name, are you trying to tell us that you went to Hofstra University on Long Island and actually had to mingle with so many Jewish students there?  Oh, the horror of it!!!  Let's face it; people like Hoffstra are a dime a dozen, just like the people you find on sites like Stormfront.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Do you deny that HAMAS and FATAH follow the path of Jihad and unrestrained armed struggle as a matter of practiced policy?

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Roudy (Aug 27, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> Hoffstra,  _et al,_
> 
> I'm not exactly following your path.
> 
> ...


Exactly.  Hamas and Islamist groups are the mother of all "right wing extremists".


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 27, 2013)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



Indeed, Israel's military has been pounding Palestinian civilians for 65 years and has not won yet.

*Lame!*


----------



## toastman (Aug 27, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...



SO tell us Tinnie, why does Israel bomb Gaza ??


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 27, 2013)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...



Armed robbery.


----------



## toastman (Aug 27, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Try again...


----------



## Sweet_Caroline (Aug 27, 2013)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



Give him a multiple choice answer.


----------



## toastman (Aug 27, 2013)

Great Idea Caroline.

Tinmore, why does Israel bomb Gaza, like you mentioned? :



a) To destroy Hamas infrastructure and rockets/rocket launchers in order to protect Israelis
b) To destroy Hamas infrastructure and rockets/rocket launchers in order to protect Israelis
c) To destroy Hamas infrastructure and rockets/rocket launchers in order to protect Israelis
d) All of the above
e) To destroy Hamas infrastructure and rockets/rocket launcher in order to protect Israelis


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 27, 2013)

toastman said:


> Great Idea Caroline.
> 
> Tinmore, why does Israel bomb Gaza, like you mentioned? :
> 
> ...



e)


----------



## toastman (Aug 27, 2013)

Good choice Tinnie. I knew you'd come around


----------



## Hoffstra (Aug 27, 2013)

Why does Israel have to pay people to defend them?

One would think their many loyal supporters would do it for free.  

You have to be one stingy/cheap bastard to require money in order to stand up for one's principles, on the internet.


----------



## Sweet_Caroline (Aug 27, 2013)

Hoffstra said:


> Why does Israel have to pay people to defend them?
> 
> One would think their many loyal supporters would do it for free.
> 
> You have to be one stingy/cheap bastard to require money in order to stand up for one's principles, on the internet.



Think about it.  They need the best employees, they must be multilingual and highly educated and adept at negotiating the web.  They need to be reliable with a good knowledge of the situation and know where to go for resources.  It will be a highly professional set-up.  About time too.  Long long overdue.


----------



## Hoffstra (Aug 27, 2013)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> Hoffstra said:
> 
> 
> > Why does Israel have to pay people to defend them?
> ...



Paying people to spread government sponsored propaganda is something that a Fascist or Communist state would do, not a supposed democracy.

What's next, will the Israeli government pay Hillel organizations around North America to do the same thing?

A nation that has to pay people to defend it, is obviously trying to defend the indefensable.


----------



## Sweet_Caroline (Aug 27, 2013)

Hoffstra said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> > Hoffstra said:
> ...



Don't get so upset.  I am sure Israel isn't.  It is a brilliant move on their part and will get the truth out there to counteract the lies.  Fantastic.


----------



## Hoffstra (Aug 27, 2013)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> Hoffstra said:
> 
> 
> > Sweet_Caroline said:
> ...



Not upset.  Dissapointed.

Democracies don't need to pay people to spread the truth.

Truth shouldn't require a pricetag.  If it does, its probably not "truth".

The best way to portray Israel in a positive light is to live the truth they wish to spread.

If the Israelis treated the people of Palestine with decency, courtesy, humanity, and respect, the world would know about it.


----------



## Hoffstra (Aug 27, 2013)

Perhaps Israel has to pay non-employees to spread propaganda because their paid employees keep making asses of themselves, spreading racism and hate.

Israel forced to apologise to Japan over offensive Hiroshima comments | World news | theguardian.com

from the OP:

The Israeli daily newspaper Haaretz identified the official heading the project as Danny Seaman, a public diplomacy official who has written posts on his personal Facebook page which Haaretz described as being *incendiary and anti-Muslim*.

Haaretz posted what it said were four screen shots of his recent posts. In one of them, Seaman wrote: "*Does the commencement of the fast of the Ramadan mean that Muslims will stop eating each other during the daytime*?" In another, he uses profanity in a comment about the chief Palestinian peace negotiator.


----------



## Roudy (Aug 27, 2013)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


----------



## Roudy (Aug 27, 2013)

Hoffstra said:


> Perhaps Israel has to pay non-employees to spread propaganda because their paid employees keep making asses of themselves, spreading racism and hate.
> 
> Israel forced to apologise to Japan over offensive Hiroshima comments | World news | theguardian.com
> 
> ...


And this is what you call turnspeak, a technique Arabs learned from the Nazis whom they adore so much. Accusing others (Israel in this case)  of crimes you are most guilty of.  It's part of the entire mindset called "Palestinian Mentality". In other words whe it comes to lying and spreading false propaganda, nothing comes close to the Palestinians. In fact there is an actual term for it called "Pallywood":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pallywood

Pallywood (Arabic: &#1576;&#1575;&#1604;&#1610;&#1608;&#1608;&#1583;* B&#257;l&#299;w&#363;d; Hebrew: &#1508;&#1488;&#1500;&#1497;&#1493;&#1493;&#1491;*), a portmanteau of "Palestinian" and "Hollywood", is a coinage that has been used to describe alleged "media manipulation, distortion and outright fraud by the Palestinians and other Arabs ... designed to win the public relations war against Israel." The incidents of the Muhammad al-Durrah tapes and the 2006 Lebanon War photographs controversies (dubbed "Hizbollywood" or "Hezbollywood")[1] are notable events which have been cited as examples.[2]

The term has been publicized in part by Boston University professor Richard Landes, as a result of an online documentary video he produced called Pallywood: According to Palestinian Sources, alleging specific instances of media manipulation.[3]

Journalist Ruthie Blum, writing in the Jerusalem Post, describes "Pallywood" as a term coined by Richard Landes to refer to "productions staged by the Palestinians, in front of (and often with cooperation from) Western camera crews, for the purpose of promoting anti-Israel propaganda by disguising it as news." Landes himself describes Pallywood as "a term I coined... to describe staged material disguised as news." Besides al-Durrah, Landes cites the Gaza beach blast and Hamas's alleged exploitation of electricity shortages during the 2007&#8211;2008 Israel-Gaza conflict, as incidents of Pallywood.

Dr. Anat Berko, a research fellow with the International Policy Institute for Counter-Terrorism, and Dr. Edna Erez, head of the criminal justice department of the University of Illinois at Chicago, say that "the phenomenon of manufacturing documentation about the conflict has been referred to as "Pallywood" (Palestinian Authority Hollywood)."[9] Similar allegations have been made by other media analysts, particularly after assertions of media manipulation (dubbed "Hizbollywood")[1] were made during the 2006 Lebanon War.[3][10][11][12][13] The Mackenzie Institute, a Canadian defense and security think tank,[14] has argued that given "a long history of posing for the cameras... the cynical 'Pallywood' nickname from once-deceived journalists for [Palestinian Authority] news services becomes understandable."[15]


----------



## Hoffstra (Aug 27, 2013)

Roudy said:


> Hoffstra said:
> 
> 
> > Perhaps Israel has to pay non-employees to spread propaganda because their paid employees keep making asses of themselves, spreading racism and hate.
> ...



you believe this Israeli Minister of Propaganda is guilty of "turnspeak"?


----------



## Hoffstra (Aug 27, 2013)

I see from the OP that China is the only other nation that pays its youth to spread propaganda.

Of course North Korea surely does the same thing, except they pay with food and not money.


----------



## Hossfly (Aug 27, 2013)

Hoffstra said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> > Hoffstra said:
> ...


Give us a break from your nonsense, Hoffstra.  Why shouldn't people be able to defend israel (we realize  you hate that country and close your eyes to all the atrocities that are happening in other places) when there is so much propaganda against Israel and even the head of the UN admitted that the UN is anti-Israel.  Is anyone stopping you from going to several of the hate sites writing your usual derogatory junk against Israel?


----------



## Hoffstra (Aug 27, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> Give us a break from your nonsense, Hoffstra.  Why shouldn't people be able to defend israel (we realize  you hate that country and close your eyes to all the atrocities that are happening in other places) when there is so much propaganda against Israel and even the head of the UN admitted that the UN is anti-Israel.  Is anyone stopping you from going to several of the hate sites writing your usual derogatory junk against Israel?



Two of the main rules of Hasbara is to accuse all people who criticize Israel, of "hating Israel" and to call for Israel's misdeeds to be ignored in favor of the "atrocities of other nations".


----------



## Hoffstra (Aug 27, 2013)

Palestinian home demolished, family moves to cave

Over the last 10 years Israel has demolished 448 Arab homes in East Jerusalem forcing more than 1,700 people to become homless, in violation of international laws regarding occupied territories and all protections for non-Jews stated in the Balfour Declaration, the Mandate for Palestine, and the San Remo Conference.

I am curious how the Israeli agents will spin that one.


----------



## Hossfly (Aug 27, 2013)

Hoffstra said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Hoffstra said:
> ...


It appears that Hoffstra might be being paid by those anti-Israel groups.  She doesn't seem to come up for air.  I wonder if Hofstra University has a film-making class, and Hoffstra should have taken it so that she could have helped make another Pallywood film or helped with one of those Arab children cartoons that teach the kids to hate the Jews.  Naturally, Hoffstra would never ask any group who publishes those anti-Semitic cartoons in Europe to stop.  She must salivate over those.  Or perhaps she likes to see the signs saying Hitler should have finished the job.  Hmm, wonder why she had to change the screen name in which she posted her nonsense before.


----------



## Hossfly (Aug 27, 2013)

Hoffstra said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Give us a break from your nonsense, Hoffstra.  Why shouldn't people be able to defend israel (we realize  you hate that country and close your eyes to all the atrocities that are happening in other places) when there is so much propaganda against Israel and even the head of the UN admitted that the UN is anti-Israel.  Is anyone stopping you from going to several of the hate sites writing your usual derogatory junk against Israel?
> ...


Now, now, Hoffstra.  There are loads of sites and forums all over the Internet.  When you come up for air from bashing Israel, do you ever take the time to condemn what is happening to innocent people?  Or maybe you have no feeling for those who are harassed and/or murdered for their religious beliefs.  By the way, I am willing to bet that none of us here, posters and viewers alike, had ever heard the word "hasbara" until some posters started reading the NeoNazi/Islamofascist hater sites.  Now the word is so popular with those who hate Israel.


----------



## Hoffstra (Aug 27, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> It appears that Hoffstra might be being paid by those anti-Israel groups.  She doesn't seem to come up for air.  I wonder if Hofstra University has a film-making class, and Hoffstra should have taken it so that she could have helped make another Pallywood film or helped with one of those Arab children cartoons that teach the kids to hate the Jews.  Naturally, Hoffstra would never ask any group who publishes those anti-Semitic cartoons in Europe to stop.  She must salivate over those.  Or perhaps she likes to see the signs saying Hitler should have finished the job.  Hmm, wonder why she had to change the screen name in which she posted her nonsense before.



Israeli propaganda rule #2:

"accuse all who counter right wing ideology of being Nazis and anti-Semites"


----------



## Hossfly (Aug 27, 2013)

Hoffstra said:


> Palestinian home demolished, family moves to cave
> 
> Over the last 10 years Israel has demolished 448 Arab homes in East Jerusalem forcing more than 1,700 people to become homless, in violation of international laws regarding occupied territories and all protections for non-Jews stated in the Balfour Declaration, the Mandate for Palestine, and the San Remo Conference.
> 
> I am curious how the Israeli agents will spin that one.


I wonder how the Arab agents like Hoffstra feel about their friends murdering people for their religious beliefs.  Perhaps Hoffstra can tell us her feelings about this.  Nobody likes to see anyone's home demolished even if it was taken by eminent domain.  However, there are thousands of Black Muslim women from Darfur living in tents in refugee camps in Chad who probably will never be able to obtain a roof over their heads again except a tent.  I wonder if, when Hoffstra comes up for a little air,  she can spread the word about these unfortunate women since she wants us to think she is this great humanitarian who really cares about people.


----------



## Hoffstra (Aug 27, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> I wonder how the Arab agents like Hoffstra feel about their friends murdering people for their religious beliefs.  Perhaps Hoffstra can tell us her feelings about this.  Nobody likes to see anyone's home demolished even if it was taken by eminent domain.  However, there are thousands of Black Muslim women from Darfur living in tents in refugee camps in Chad who probably will never be able to obtain a roof over their heads again except a tent.  I wonder if, when Hoffstra comes up for a little air,  she can spread the word about these unfortunate women since she wants us to think she is this great humanitarian who really cares about people.



Israeli propaganda rule #3 & #5:

"accuse all who counter right wing propaganda of being 'Arab agents'"

"derail debate to focus on genocide committed by Muslims somewhere in Africa"


----------



## Hossfly (Aug 27, 2013)

Hoffstra said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder how the Arab agents like Hoffstra feel about their friends murdering people for their religious beliefs.  Perhaps Hoffstra can tell us her feelings about this.  Nobody likes to see anyone's home demolished even if it was taken by eminent domain.  However, there are thousands of Black Muslim women from Darfur living in tents in refugee camps in Chad who probably will never be able to obtain a roof over their heads again except a tent.  I wonder if, when Hoffstra comes up for a little air,  she can spread the word about these unfortunate women since she wants us to think she is this great humanitarian who really cares about people.
> ...


Funny how Hoffstra doesn't mind when her like-minded pals here call those who stick up for Israel, whether they are Christian or Jewish, agents for Israel (and she herself is also busy doing just that), but she doesn't like to be called an agent for the Arabs.  If anyone counted the posts she has made today demonizing Israel, she must be putting a lot of moolah into her purse.  Hoffstra is thinking -- Neiman Marcus here I come or whatever expensive department store is out on Long Island.  She must know them all from her student days at Hofstra University.  Remember, Hoffstra, a "good humanitarian" like you has to save a little bit to give to the homeless of New York.


----------



## Kondor3 (Aug 27, 2013)

Is this silly-ass thread still on its feet?


----------



## Hossfly (Aug 27, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> Is this silly-ass thread still on its feet?


Nah, it's in the missionary position.


----------



## Roudy (Aug 27, 2013)

Hoffstra said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Hoffstra said:
> ...


No.

www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com


----------



## P F Tinmore (Aug 28, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> Hoffstra said:
> 
> 
> > Palestinian home demolished, family moves to cave
> ...



*That's easy. Deflect!*


----------



## Sweet_Caroline (Aug 28, 2013)

It is amusing to see how the antisemites on USMB are reacting over the top of this issue, they are scared of this and it is evident on these forums.  One person even made a thread about it as he/she was so worried that these "paid Israelis will join USMB," and he is now pinked.


----------



## Hossfly (Aug 28, 2013)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> It is amusing to see how the antisemites on USMB are reacting over the top of this issue, they are scared of this and it is evident on these forums.  One person even made a thread about it as he/she was so worried that these "paid Israelis will join USMB," and he is now pinked.


I have to admit, Caroline, I am being paid to push Israel's agenda here. How else could I afford a Bugatti?


----------



## Bloodrock44 (Aug 28, 2013)

Anyone wanna see my latest pay stub for defending Israel? Drinks are on me!


----------



## Roudy (Aug 28, 2013)

Bloodrock44 said:


> Anyone wanna see my latest pay stub for defending Israel? Drinks are on me!


 

Funny part is Israel's enemies do a such great job of making themselves look bad I don't think Israel really needs to do much defending. LOL


----------



## Hoffstra (Aug 28, 2013)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> It is amusing to see how the antisemites on USMB are reacting over the top of this issue, they are scared of this and it is evident on these forums.  One person even made a thread about it as he/she was so worried that these "paid Israelis will join USMB," and he is now pinked.


 
is that so?





..glick


----------



## Hoffstra (Sep 3, 2013)

One of the best ways of knowing if someone if a paid Zionist agent, is if the ONLY thing they talk about in online forums is Israel/Palestine/Muslim issues.

if their account never talks about other things, you know you got an agent.


----------



## MHunterB (Sep 3, 2013)

Hoffstra said:


> One of the best ways of knowing if someone if a paid Zionist agent, is if the ONLY thing they talk about in online forums is Israel/Palestine/Muslim issues.
> 
> if their account never talks about other things, you know you got an agent.



Wow, how fascinating.  Of course, you and many others would qualify........


----------



## Hoffstra (Sep 3, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> Hoffstra said:
> 
> 
> > One of the best ways of knowing if someone if a paid Zionist agent, is if the ONLY thing they talk about in online forums is Israel/Palestine/Muslim issues.
> ...



This of course PROVES that you cannot read, as I participate in many threads that have nothing to do with Israel, Palestine, or Muslims.


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## Hossfly (Sep 3, 2013)

Hoffstra said:


> One of the best ways of knowing if someone if a paid Zionist agent, is if the ONLY thing they talk about in online forums is Israel/Palestine/Muslim issues.
> 
> if their account never talks about other things, you know you got an agent.


The way we know that pro Palestinian propagandist posters are paid is that they don't bother to go to other forums to discuss what is going on in the Muslim world which covers a huge, huge amount of territory compared to postage-stamp size Israel.  I guess if they start condemning the atrocities happening in the Muslim world they are afraid they wouldn't get paid.  They can't even post about what is happening in the Philippines or Thailand when it comes to Muslims.  Perhaps this is the way Miss Hoffstra supplements her income because I think the viewers can discern that she really isn't that bright and makes silly posts such as the one she just made so her regular daytime job must not pay her very much.
Plight of the far South's women | Bangkok Post: news


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## Hoffstra (Sep 3, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> The way we know that pro Palestinian propagandist posters are paid is that they don't bother to go to other forums to discuss what is going on in the Muslim world which covers a huge, huge amount of territory compared to postage-stamp size Israel.



How would YOU possibly know if members are posting in other forums about problems in the Muslim world?


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## Hoffstra (Sep 3, 2013)

Looks like the member "Roudy" and "Toastman" are two of these paid agents.

ALL they ever talksabout is Israel/Palestine/Jewish/Muslim issues.

100% of the time, its their topic.  Nothing else.

They must be paid well.


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## Hossfly (Sep 3, 2013)

Hoffstra said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > The way we know that pro Palestinian propagandist posters are paid is that they don't bother to go to other forums to discuss what is going on in the Muslim world which covers a huge, huge amount of territory compared to postage-stamp size Israel.
> ...


Just a lucky guess, I guess.


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## Hossfly (Sep 3, 2013)

Hoffstra said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > The way we know that pro Palestinian propagandist posters are paid is that they don't bother to go to other forums to discuss what is going on in the Muslim world which covers a huge, huge amount of territory compared to postage-stamp size Israel.
> ...


Doesn't the USMessageBoard have several forums?  Aren't the Muslims acting up in Africa, Southeast Asia, the Middle East and other places in the world?  Just wondering if you will be asking for a raise for your silly posts.  In fact, you sound like some teenager who hangs around with anti-Semitic friends in high school.  Miss Hoffstra must think she is throwing people off the trail that she is a propagandist for the Palestinians by posting this nonsense.  In fact, she would do this for nothing because it would be a labor of love for her.  This ridiculous girl doesn't have the sense to realize that most of the viewers, unlike her, have retired and don't need to be paid for anything.  I guess since Miss Hoffstra didn't see fit in quoting my entire post, evidently she could care less about what is happening elsewhere, not even caring for the unfortunate women in Thailand.


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## Hossfly (Sep 3, 2013)

Hoffstra said:


> Looks like the member "Roudy" and "Toastman" are two of these paid agents.
> 
> ALL they ever talksabout is Israel/Palestine/Jewish/Muslim issues.
> 
> ...


Roudy, do you think you can get Miss Hoffstra a better job in the New York area so she doesn't have to be a paid pro Palestinian poster.  Maybe you can find her something that pays a bit more than her present job as a ladies room attendant in some hotel or restaurant.  As you can see, she is very childish so the job would have to fit her juvenile acting out.  Maybe cleaning out office buildings at night might be her bag.  She probably can swing a mean dust rag on the office furniture.


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## Hoffstra (Sep 3, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> Roudy, do you think you can get Miss Hoffstra a better job in the New York area so she doesn't have to be a paid pro Palestinian poster.  Maybe you can find her something that pays a bit more than her present job as a ladies room attendant in some hotel or restaurant.  As you can see, she is very childish so the job would have to fit her juvenile acting out.  Maybe cleaning out office buildings at night might be her bag.  She probably can swing a mean dust rag on the office furniture.



shows you're just a troll.


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## MHunterB (Sep 3, 2013)

Hoffstra said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy, do you think you can get Miss Hoffstra a better job in the New York area so she doesn't have to be a paid pro Palestinian poster.  Maybe you can find her something that pays a bit more than her present job as a ladies room attendant in some hotel or restaurant.  As you can see, she is very childish so the job would have to fit her juvenile acting out.  Maybe cleaning out office buildings at night might be her bag.  She probably can swing a mean dust rag on the office furniture.
> ...



And of course you yourself are just brimming with friendliness and good will towards everyone : ))


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## Hossfly (Sep 3, 2013)

Hoffstra said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy, do you think you can get Miss Hoffstra a better job in the New York area so she doesn't have to be a paid pro Palestinian poster.  Maybe you can find her something that pays a bit more than her present job as a ladies room attendant in some hotel or restaurant.  As you can see, she is very childish so the job would have to fit her juvenile acting out.  Maybe cleaning out office buildings at night might be her bag.  She probably can swing a mean dust rag on the office furniture.
> ...


For you to start up with your ridiculous statement about the posters who are pro Israel shows what a childish, immature woman you are.  Roudy, forget what I said about you looking for a job for her.  I don't think she is even capable of wiping the tables off at Macdonalds.


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## Bloodrock44 (Sep 4, 2013)

Right on time. Today is the 4th and I got my paycheck. Thanks BiBi.


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## MikeK (Sep 4, 2013)

I'm curious to see how they will deal with the fact that U.S. support of Israel was a major provocation for the 9/11 attack.


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## Bloodrock44 (Sep 4, 2013)

MikeK said:


> I'm curious to see how they will deal with the fact that U.S. support of Israel was a major provocation for the 9/11 attack.



*No need to watch it. We all know that Bush and Cheney flew the planes into the towers(wearing yarmulkes and Star of David shoulder patches) and parachuted just before impact. The 5 dancing Israelis picked them up in the white van after they set the charges that imploded the buildings.*


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## Coyote (Sep 4, 2013)

*Thread closed permanently due to lack of impulse control and trolling.*


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