# Is LeBron James the GOAT?



## Mac1958 (May 26, 2018)

I've always been a Jordan guy, the Greatest of All Time, but not any more.

I don't think the sport has seen anything like LeBron James, and I'm not sure ANY sport has.

You usually see career records and career milestones passed as an athlete is winding down his career.  Not this guy.  He's still absolutely DOMINANT.

The closest team athlete I can think of is Jim Brown.

Thoughts?
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## Tom Horn (May 26, 2018)

The greatest athletes in the world are US 5th Special Forces followed closely by Navy S.E.A.L.s....Lebron wouldn't last a day in the field with either branch.


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## Sunni Man (May 26, 2018)

Tom Horn said:


> The greatest athletes in the world are US 5th Special Forces followed closely by Navy S.E.A.L.s....Lebron wouldn't last a day in the field with either branch.


My vote would be for Delta   .....


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## MarathonMike (May 26, 2018)

We measure greatness by number of world championships. Nicklaus is better than Woods even though Woods has many more tour wins than Nicklaus. Brady is the best because he has the most rings. Jordan is still the best because he has most rings.


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## Tom Horn (May 26, 2018)

Sunni Man said:


> Tom Horn said:
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That's a pack of killers....no unis...you don't know who they are before your throat gets cut.  Force-Recon USMC ain't too shabby either.


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## Sunni Man (May 26, 2018)

Tom Horn said:


> That's a pack of killers....no unis...you don't know who they are before your throat gets cut.  Force-Recon USMC ain't too shabby either.


Delta and Seal team 6 are tier 1 assets.

The best of the best of the best, by invitation only units.  ....


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## Tom Horn (May 26, 2018)

Sunni Man said:


> Tom Horn said:
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Matter of opinion really.....I got my Ithaca 37 from a SEAL in a trade for my Colt .357 at the Rex in Saigon...they had the first CAR-15s....took me a week to round up enough .12 buckshot to take the 37 into the field.  I'll stick with my 5th SFG for all-around  badasses....plus they can dig a round out of you and stitch you up if necessary.


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## BlackFlag (May 26, 2018)

Mac1958 said:


> I've always been a Jordan guy, the Greatest of All Time, but not any more.
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> I don't think the sport has seen anything like LeBron James, and I'm not sure ANY sport has.
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Lebron is more gifted, but I still say Jordan beats him more than 50% of the time over however many matches you want.


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## IM2 (May 26, 2018)

Tom Horn said:


> The greatest athletes in the world are US 5th Special Forces followed closely by Navy S.E.A.L.s....Lebron wouldn't last a day in the field with either branch.



I really don't think you can say that. And those people are not athletes, they are soldiers. Thy might be the worlds best soldiers but war is not a sport.


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## IM2 (May 26, 2018)

MarathonMike said:


> We measure greatness by number of world championships. Nicklaus is better than Woods even though Woods has many more tour wins than Nicklaus. Brady is the best because he has the most rings. Jordan is still the best because he has most rings.



If you've won more golf tournaments there is no argument. Woods is better than Nicklaus. But I like them both. There is no official world championship golf tournament.


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## MarathonMike (May 26, 2018)

IM2 said:


> MarathonMike said:
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By that logic then Sam Snead is the greatest since he has the most all time tournament wins. He has no where near the number of majors that Woods and Nicklaus have. In golf it's all about the 4 majors.


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## IM2 (May 26, 2018)

BlackFlag said:


> Mac1958 said:
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Jordan is the best basketball player to ever live. But I think that at the same age Jordan led the league in scoring and averaged over 30 points a game. He did that for years. Lebron has not done that. And as far as being a competitor, Jordan beats him hands down. But Lebron is in the top 3 or 4 ever to play..


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## rightwinger (May 26, 2018)

Mac1958 said:


> I've always been a Jordan guy, the Greatest of All Time, but not any more.
> 
> I don't think the sport has seen anything like LeBron James, and I'm not sure ANY sport has.
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Not as pretty as Jordon, not as smooth, not as charismatic

But he physically dominates the court


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## rightwinger (May 26, 2018)

I used to swear I’d never see a better QB than Joe Montana 

But Brady passed him by


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## WheelieAddict (May 26, 2018)

A very good argument can be made that he is, and his career isn't even over yet.


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## WheelieAddict (May 26, 2018)

rightwinger said:


> I used to swear I’d never see a better QB than Joe Montana
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> But Brady passed him by


I think Montana is better but as much as I dislike the Patriots it gets harder to argue against Brady the longer he plays. At this point it is obvious he is one of the best ever, and can be argued as the best. Same for Belichick versus say Shula for example.


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## IM2 (May 26, 2018)

MarathonMike said:


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I know that but  I've seen Nicklaus and Woods play in their primes. Woods is better IMO. And he's not done quite yet, I don't think. I think they really need a world championship tournament of golf.


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## rightwinger (May 26, 2018)

WheelieAddict said:


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Belichick is better than Vince Lombardi


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## rightwinger (May 26, 2018)

IM2 said:


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Have to agree


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## WheelieAddict (May 26, 2018)

rightwinger said:


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That's a bold statement, but it is hard to argue against. Like Brady they are both in top 3 conversation if not best.


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## rightwinger (May 26, 2018)

WheelieAddict said:


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Lombardi’s run lasted about ten years. He built a solid team and ran with them. NFL only had 14 teams then. Lombardi only had to win his division and go straight to the championship
Belichick has to beat 30 teams and win at least three playoff games to win a championship


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## IM2 (May 26, 2018)

WheelieAddict said:


> rightwinger said:
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I don't know. Brady will get that kind of credit but you got guys who probably won't see as many Superbowls who might be better.  Aaron Rodgers for example.. He can do more than Brady. And athletically Montana was better than Brady. So was Elway. But in the end Brady will probably have all the numbers.


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## WheelieAddict (May 26, 2018)

rightwinger said:


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You aren't wrong but using the rules coaches or players worked with during their time against them isn't exactly fair IMO. That's why this stuff is always subjective and almost never clear cut.


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## IM2 (May 26, 2018)

WheelieAddict said:


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That's a tough one.  Lombardi won a whole bunch of championships before there was a super bowl. George Halas, Curly Lambeau and Shula are in this discussion with them.


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## WheelieAddict (May 26, 2018)

IM2 said:


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That's the argument that Montana is better than Brady. It's a good one and I agree with it. This stuff can be argued forever though. Brady benefits from goat coach and great defenses vs. say Rodgers or Brees.


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## IM2 (May 26, 2018)

WheelieAddict said:


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Yes I agree. But these are fun discussions, much better than arguing about race or politics. It's really hard to disagree with any of these opinions. All of these players and coaches are great. And I totally forgot about Brees , he definitely should be in the discussion. So does Peyton Manning.


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## MarathonMike (May 26, 2018)

IM2 said:


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I've watched Tiger since he played with the pros at age 16 on an invite. And I watched Jack, Tom, Lee, Gary and Nick in their primes. I agree in terms of pure talent there has never been anyone like Tiger. But he unfortunately messed up his personal life and his body to such a degree that he robbed himself of the chance to break Nicklaus' 18 majors record. I hope his body holds up long enough for him to win again.


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## IM2 (May 27, 2018)

MarathonMike said:


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I don't know if he's lost the chance to break the majors record yet, but you are correct on many things you said.


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## my2¢ (May 27, 2018)

I'll vote for Bill Russell, 11 championships during his 13-year career.


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## G.T. (May 27, 2018)

Jordan is levels above Lebron because of an x-factor called the will to win. Lebron has fatigue issues, he appears defeated and lunky in alotta important 4th quarter situations. Jordan refused to lay down and as a result, 6 chips in dominant slugging it out fashion. 

Lebron has killer physical dominance, but not killer instincts. You cant measure that, you just have to know your shit.


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## rightwinger (May 27, 2018)

my2¢ said:


> I'll vote for Bill Russell, 11 championships during his 13-year career.



I always hear that in comparing Bill Russell to Wilt Chamberlain. Russell won championships. But Bill Russell had five Hall of Fame players surrounding him. Wilt Chamberlain had to carry his team night after night


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## Tom Horn (May 27, 2018)

IM2 said:


> Tom Horn said:
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Yeah, well I did say that didn't I, asshole?  Put a 70lb rucksack and another 30 lbs of gear on any NBA clown in his little short pants and tell him to double-time 6 clicks in the mountains of Afghanistan.....As usual you don't know shit from shinola, boy.


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## G.T. (May 27, 2018)

Tom Horn said:


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It doesn't come off right when you overcompensate by trying to talk like such a tough guy, dude. Its just lame


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## Tom Horn (May 27, 2018)

G.T. said:


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Fuck you, Loretta and the dildo you rode in on,.


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## G.T. (May 27, 2018)

Tom Horn said:


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Thats just cringey talk, Thomas.


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## Tom Horn (May 27, 2018)

G.T. said:


> Thats just cringey talk, Thomas.



You wanna suck my WHAT?


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## G.T. (May 27, 2018)

Tom Horn said:


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lol


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## rightwinger (May 27, 2018)

The argument can be made that Lebron is the GOAT
You can also make a case for Jordan 

But Lebron still has several years to play


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## IM2 (May 27, 2018)

rightwinger said:


> The argument can be made that Lebron is the GOAT
> You can also make a case for Jordan
> 
> But Lebron still has several years to play



I make my case for Jordan based on the fact that he was scoring an average of over 30 points per game for at least the 6 years he won championships. He led the league in scoring those years and I think in steal for several years with it and made the all defensive team as well. James has not had years scoring 30 ppg, consecutively if he has had one. James has never approached the 37 ppg average Jordan had one year. James is one of the greats for certain but the greatest of all time? Not IMO.


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## rightwinger (May 27, 2018)

IM2 said:


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Good point

But scoring is not the only aspect of the game.


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## IM2 (May 27, 2018)

Tom Horn said:


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I think that if they train 5 days a week to do that, they are very capable of doing so. You try sprinting the 8-9 miles they do per game. These men are in tremendous shape. And I think that if they were SEALS they could do what the seals do with the same training. You see junior, the body will do what it's rained to do. Those seals did not show up on their first day able to do the shit you talk about. Apparently you know nothing about training and the difference between sports and war. Those SEALS are soldiers, not athletes, and they are not preparing for a game, they are preparing to try surviving in a war. Those NBA players can be trained to do the same thing. And one thing is for certain, that when they show up for basic they'll be in better shape initially than the others trying to be SEALS and it will take them less time to be in good enough shape to fight than the average SEAL.


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## IM2 (May 27, 2018)

rightwinger said:


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I know and  that's why I mentioned that Jordan was on the all defensive team for years.


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## IM2 (May 27, 2018)

rightwinger said:


> my2¢ said:
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Wilt was statistically better than Russell in those match ups. Wilt was better than Russell.


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## rightwinger (May 27, 2018)

IM2 said:


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Look at Wilt when he was older and with the Lakers
He had great players around him and he didn’t have to carry the team. Then he won championships


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## IM2 (May 27, 2018)

rightwinger said:


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They say if Wilt had hit more free throws it wouldn't have mattered. But Wilt ate Russell up every game they played against each other.

Wilt averaged 30 points and 23 rebounds against Russell. Now that's dominance.

Wilt Chamberlain vs. Bill Russell Comparison


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## rightwinger (May 27, 2018)

IM2 said:


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23 rebounds?

Against the games greatest defensive player?


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## IM2 (May 27, 2018)

rightwinger said:


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And 30 points. If you hit the link, you see that Wilt was simply the better player and it's not even an argument


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## rightwinger (May 27, 2018)

IM2 said:


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Wilt averaged 50 a game one year


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## IM2 (May 27, 2018)

rightwinger said:


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Yes he did and scored 100 points in an NBA game at least once.


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## sealybobo (May 27, 2018)

Mac1958 said:


> I've always been a Jordan guy, the Greatest of All Time, but not any more.
> 
> I don't think the sport has seen anything like LeBron James, and I'm not sure ANY sport has.
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Fix! I knew Cleveland would win game 7 even though Boston seemed unstoppable at home and golden state will take care of business in Houston.

F me! I wanted a Boston houston finals


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## IM2 (May 27, 2018)

sealybobo said:


> Mac1958 said:
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I don't think it was a fix. The Celtics were young and they were missing their best player.


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## Tom Horn (May 27, 2018)

IM2 said:


> I think that if they train 5 days a week to do that, they are very capable of doing so. You try sprinting the 8-9 miles they do per game. These men are in tremendous shape. And I think that if they were SEALS they could do what the seals do with the same training. You see junior, the body will do what it's rained to do. Those seals did not show up on their first day able to do the shit you talk about. Apparently you know nothing about training and the difference between sports and war. Those SEALS are soldiers, not athletes, and they are not preparing for a game, they are preparing to try surviving in a war. Those NBA players can be trained to do the same thing. And one thing is for certain, that when they show up for basic they'll be in better shape initially than the others trying to be SEALS and it will take them less time to be in good enough shape to fight than the average SEAL.



I was at An Khe when you were 6 years old, shitbag.  You know nothing about soldiers, sports, life, or anything else...you just run your mouff on a message board.  I was ten times the athlete you ever were but barely got on the Recon team I went for.  That's the difference...what we did wasn't a game and coming in second was coming home dead.   I've scraped better than you off the bottom of my boot, punk.


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## IM2 (May 28, 2018)

Tom Horn said:


> IM2 said:
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> > I think that if they train 5 days a week to do that, they are very capable of doing so. You try sprinting the 8-9 miles they do per game. These men are in tremendous shape. And I think that if they were SEALS they could do what the seals do with the same training. You see junior, the body will do what it's rained to do. Those seals did not show up on their first day able to do the shit you talk about. Apparently you know nothing about training and the difference between sports and war. Those SEALS are soldiers, not athletes, and they are not preparing for a game, they are preparing to try surviving in a war. Those NBA players can be trained to do the same thing. And one thing is for certain, that when they show up for basic they'll be in better shape initially than the others trying to be SEALS and it will take them less time to be in good enough shape to fight than the average SEAL.
> ...



I really could care less. I know plenty about soldiers. I doubt if you were 10 times the athlete I was. Between you and I, you are the one blowing the hot air. And I know damn well that if I could wear 20-25 pounds of equipment 3 times a day in 100 plus degree heat, and on Saturday afternoons,  I could do what SEALS do.


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## Tom Horn (May 28, 2018)

IM2 said:


> I really could care less. I know plenty about soldiers. I doubt if you were 10 times the athlete I was. Between you and I, you are the one blowing the hot air. And I know damn well that if I could wear 20-25 pounds of equipment 3 times a day in 100 plus degree heat, and on Saturday afternoons,  I could do what SEALS do.



You mean bark until somebody throws you a fish, moron?


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## Old Yeller (May 28, 2018)

LeBron is heading to his 8th straight final with a weak supporting cast.  LJ is getting it done in the modern era against much stronger players than the olden days.  7" Durant is playing point forward! 

Wilt could catch lob and dunk.  No one could play that high.  Mugsy Bouges could play above the rim during Lebrons' era.

MJ had Pippen. JR Smith? Please. He of "black beavis and butthead".  George Hill seems OK. Along with the heavy one, name escapes me?

The Greatest?   He got Cleve a Title, no one else had done that.  Down 3-1 to hot-shooting GS.  LeBron is constantly winning me over.  I used to be a doubter,  but last night...he got it done again.


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## sealybobo (May 28, 2018)

IM2 said:


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No offense but screw that. Lol. I saw this coming. My dad said it’d be a miracle if Cleveland beat them in Boston without love especially.

I told my dad if it goes 7 throw out home court advantage.

You’re right though Boston is young. They choked at home. Couldn’t close the deal. I suspect that team will be back.

Lebron 8 finals in a row? That’s pretty great. Jordan didn’t do that but he won 6.

I still have Jordan 1a and lebron 1b. I can’t definitely put lebron as #2. But he’s better than Kobe even though Kobe has more rings. He needed shaq to get three of those.

Jordan had better teams too but Jordan was just a competitive assassin.

It’s almost unfair to put lebron below anybody but jordan was the man. So competitive. Did it with flare.

If you had to pick first for a five on 5 who you gonna pick?

You lebron

Me Jordan

Me wilt

You Kareem or shaq or alajuan. We only get one center each.

Ok so now who are the next 6 guys we would pick?

Kobe has to be one of the guys. Tim Duncan maybe my forward? Magic Johnson. Larry Bird.

No one older than bird and Johnson. Who’ve I missed?


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## DrLove (May 28, 2018)

King James certainly put on a show in this series .. and to do this in game 7 in the Gahhh-den? Crazy.

I'm pretty sure he's from another planet


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## sealybobo (May 28, 2018)

DrLove said:


> King James certainly put on a show in this series .. and to do this in game 7 in the Gahhh-den? Crazy.
> 
> I'm pretty sure he's from another planet


I hope golden state at least loses. I don’t want to see the same two teams every year. Durant got his ring. I wanted that. But no he needs to be humbled and learn to play better team ball.

Durant doesn’t make his teammates better. That’s why lebron is better than him


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## DrLove (May 28, 2018)

sealybobo said:


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I like Kevin a lot but you're right, LeBron has almost twice as many assists per game. Part of that may be that LeBron handles the ball a lot more - more touches is gonna mean more assists.

What's amazing about BOTH is their ball handling skills. Either can bring the ball up court with the ease of a really good NBA guard.

*Points Per Game*
Kevin Durant *27.1*




LeBron James  *27.2*








*Rebounds Per Game*
Kevin Durant *7.1*




LeBron James  *7.4*








*Assists Per Game*
Kevin Durant *3.9*




LeBron James  *7.2*








*Steals Per Game*
Kevin Durant *1.2*




LeBron James  *1.6*








*Blocks Per Game*
Kevin Durant *1.1*




LeBron James  *0.8
*
Agree with you though on same two teams every year. Which is why I was rooting for Boston last night


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## yiostheoy (May 28, 2018)

Mac1958 said:


> I've always been a Jordan guy, the Greatest of All Time, but not any more.
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I believe Shak Attack was the greatest guy.

But Seth is fast taking over.


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## yiostheoy (May 28, 2018)

sealybobo said:


> DrLove said:
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sealybobo every time you wish for the Warriors to lose they win.


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## IM2 (May 28, 2018)

We are all caught up in the moment, but Jordan was out of the game for 2 years and probably would have won 8 championships in a row had he not been. Not just go to 8 championships then lose most of them. Jordan is better than James. But James is certainly one of the all time greats, And James had Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh for several years. Wade is a hall of famer, Bosh might be. James had Kyrie Irving with him until this year. Jordan had Pippen and still carried that team.

Wilt was a high jumper on the KU track team. The man was a great athlete. But we forget Kareem too.


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## IM2 (May 28, 2018)

yiostheoy said:


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Shaq was one of the great centers ever and that's saying a lot but he was not the greatest player. Seth Curry  is not even close. He's a great shooter and that's it.


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## rightwinger (May 28, 2018)

IM2 said:


> We are all caught up in the moment, but Jordan was out of the game for 2 years and probably would have won 8 championships in a row had he not been. Not just go to 8 championships then lose most of them. Jordan is better than James. But James is certainly one of the all time greats, And James had Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh for several years. Wade is a hall of famer, Bosh might be. James had Kyrie Irving with him until this year. Jordan had Pippen and still carried that team.
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> Wilt was a high jumper on the KU track team. The man was a great athlete. But we forget Kareem too.



Wilt was more than a high jumper, he also excelled at shot put, middle distance and long jump


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## IM2 (May 28, 2018)

rightwinger said:


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That's true and as I live in Kansas I guess I should have known that. But I didn't go to KU and can't stand the Jayhawks. It's the only thing I have against Wilt.


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## IM2 (May 28, 2018)

Old Yeller said:


> LeBron is heading to his 8th straight final with a weak supporting cast.  LJ is getting it done in the modern era against much stronger players than the olden days.  7" Durant is playing point forward!
> 
> Wilt could catch lob and dunk.  No one could play that high.  Mugsy Bouges could play above the rim during Lebrons' era.
> 
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Elgin Baylor, Connie Hawkins and many others during Wilts day played above the rim.


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## sealybobo (May 28, 2018)

IM2 said:


> We are all caught up in the moment, but Jordan was out of the game for 2 years and probably would have won 8 championships in a row had he not been. Not just go to 8 championships then lose most of them. Jordan is better than James. But James is certainly one of the all time greats, And James had Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh for several years. Wade is a hall of famer, Bosh might be. James had Kyrie Irving with him until this year. Jordan had Pippen and still carried that team.
> 
> Wilt was a high jumper on the KU track team. The man was a great athlete. But we forget Kareem too.


I agree. This is why as great as lebron is, he’s no Jordan.

But I bet you anyone who loves basketball and is around 25 or 30 years old. In 10 years we will be arguing with them. They will point to how lebron has owned the east almost from day one. He broke up the 2006 (roughly) pistons and has owned the east ever since. Either on crappy Cleveland in the beginning or now, or with the heat.

I’m not arguing with you. Jordan would have won 3 with wade and bosh. And lebron didn’t win in Cleveland. He had to leave to go get a ring. I’ll give him credit for coming back and winning ONLY one for Cleveland

Lebron could make a case for himself by winning a championship this year. Otherwise this season will add to our case that Jordan was better.

I know people will say the bulls were better but fact is that was the mofo Michael Jordan show


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## sealybobo (May 28, 2018)

Dirk nowitski and Mark Cuban beat lebron


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## IM2 (May 28, 2018)

Tom Horn said:


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> 
> 
> > I really could care less. I know plenty about soldiers. I doubt if you were 10 times the athlete I was. Between you and I, you are the one blowing the hot air. And I know damn well that if I could wear 20-25 pounds of equipment 3 times a day in 100 plus degree heat, and on Saturday afternoons,  I could do what SEALS do.
> ...



That's apparently all you did. .


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## IM2 (May 28, 2018)

sealybobo said:


> Dirk nowitski and Mark Cuban beat lebron



Yes they did.


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## sealybobo (May 28, 2018)

IM2 said:


> Old Yeller said:
> 
> 
> > LeBron is heading to his 8th straight final with a weak supporting cast.  LJ is getting it done in the modern era against much stronger players than the olden days.  7" Durant is playing point forward!
> ...


Walton McCale and bird. Best white lineup ever


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## IM2 (May 28, 2018)

sealybobo said:


> IM2 said:
> 
> 
> > Old Yeller said:
> ...



They were one of the best lineups ever period. Not as good as the Lakers of that time but still when you look at the history of the game this team is up there with the greats.


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## sealybobo (May 28, 2018)

IM2 said:


> Tom Horn said:
> 
> 
> > IM2 said:
> ...


At tiger stadium they have the picture of the black team before blacks were allowed in the MLB. They all looked like modern day athletes today. Then you go look at the little white tigers. So obvious the black team would have killed the white team

Legend has it ty Cobb used to go practice with the blacks. Hit against them. Steal on their catchers. Etc. that’s why he got so great in the white league

The guy tried to suggest Cobb wasn’t racist because of this. I disagree. Just because he used them to make himself better doesn’t make him a humanitarian. He didn’t speak out. In fact when blacks back then said black lives matter ty Cobb said all lives matter


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## rightwinger (May 28, 2018)

IM2 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > IM2 said:
> ...


Kansas was a long way from Philadelphia

He was the dominant team basketball player of his era


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## sealybobo (May 28, 2018)

IM2 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > IM2 said:
> ...


On 30 for 30 they make an argument that the one year they were their best they were going to destroy that laker team and the lakers got bounced by Portland I believe it was?


----------



## rightwinger (May 28, 2018)

IM2 said:


> Old Yeller said:
> 
> 
> > LeBron is heading to his 8th straight final with a weak supporting cast.  LJ is getting it done in the modern era against much stronger players than the olden days.  7" Durant is playing point forward!
> ...


They did, but it was a different game back then

Two handed set shot was still in use


----------



## sealybobo (May 28, 2018)

IM2 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > IM2 said:
> ...


I’ll give you this. If we were playing Nintendo and you gave me first pick and we had $1000 on it, I’d pick LA. Lol


----------



## IM2 (May 28, 2018)

.


rightwinger said:


> IM2 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



Wilt is one of the greatest of all time. He would have been at the top in ay era. Him and Kareem.


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## IM2 (May 28, 2018)

sealybobo said:


> IM2 said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...



Overall the Lakers beat the Celtics in more championship series than they beat the Lakers. And it was Houston. Let's not forget that the Celtics got lucky against the Pistons when Isiah threw that lazy pass.


----------



## IM2 (May 28, 2018)

0


rightwinger said:


> IM2 said:
> 
> 
> > Old Yeller said:
> ...



At the same time the game was far more physical.


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## rightwinger (May 28, 2018)

IM2 said:


> 0
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> ...


They weren’t anywhere close athletically to those playing today

A good HS team today would beat most NBA teams of the 50s


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## DGS49 (May 28, 2018)

LeBron is the greatest basketball player who ever lived.  This is not a statistical observation, but a competitive one.  No one else has ever taken more mediocre teams - personally - to the heights that LeBron has.  MJ won championships with excellent teams, where he was the one player who took them "over the top."  But LeBron CARRIES his teams, most of which have been barely playoff-level teams without him.

Tiger is the best golfer who ever lived, regardless of the number of "majors" he collects through the end of his career.  No other golfer has dominated the way he did.  Tiger's most important and noteworthy "statistic" is the number of tournaments he won after leading on Sunday morning.  The answer is, basically, every one (there were a few fluke-ish exceptions).  Every other top golfer goes into a fetal position when they bring a lead into Sunday. If they win/won a tournament, it was with a 72 or 73 on the final day, with the other players simply not able to catch up.  Tiger played better on Sunday than he did from Thursday through Saturday, and by definition, that means he played best when the win was on the line.  No question about it.

As for baseball players, there are too many variables to make a definitive case, but by any measures, Babe Ruth, Barry Bonds, Lou Gehrig, and Henry Aaron have to be considered.

For pure skills, I think today's players are quite a bit better than those who came before.  Mike Trout would have been HOF in any era.


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## IM2 (May 28, 2018)

rightwinger said:


> IM2 said:
> 
> 
> > 0
> ...



The thing is that most of the players today are the beneficiaries of the teaching of those back then. And training is different now as well.


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## IM2 (May 28, 2018)

DGS49 said:


> LeBron is the greatest basketball player who ever lived.  This is not a statistical observation, but a competitive one.  No one else has ever taken more mediocre teams - personally - to the heights that LeBron has.  MJ won championships with excellent teams, where he was the one player who took them "over the top."  But LeBron CARRIES his teams, most of which have been barely playoff-level teams without him.
> 
> Tiger is the best golfer who ever lived, regardless of the number of "majors" he collects through the end of his career.  No other golfer has dominated the way he did.  Tiger's most important and noteworthy "statistic" is the number of tournaments he won after leading on Sunday morning.  The answer is, basically, every one (there were a few fluke-ish exceptions).  Every other top golfer goes into a fetal position when they bring a lead into Sunday. If they win/won a tournament, it was with a 72 or 73 on the final day, with the other players simply not able to catch up.  Tiger played better on Sunday than he did from Thursday through Saturday, and by definition, that means he played best when the win was on the line.  No question about it.
> 
> ...



On a competitive level Jordan is far superior to Lebron. Lebron was on a superior team in the Miami Heat. And for 3 years in Cleveland he had 2 other all stars with him. As for baseball, don't forget Griffey Jr.


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## sealybobo (May 28, 2018)

DGS49 said:


> LeBron is the greatest basketball player who ever lived.  This is not a statistical observation, but a competitive one.  No one else has ever taken more mediocre teams - personally - to the heights that LeBron has.  MJ won championships with excellent teams, where he was the one player who took them "over the top."  But LeBron CARRIES his teams, most of which have been barely playoff-level teams without him.
> 
> Tiger is the best golfer who ever lived, regardless of the number of "majors" he collects through the end of his career.  No other golfer has dominated the way he did.  Tiger's most important and noteworthy "statistic" is the number of tournaments he won after leading on Sunday morning.  The answer is, basically, every one (there were a few fluke-ish exceptions).  Every other top golfer goes into a fetal position when they bring a lead into Sunday. If they win/won a tournament, it was with a 72 or 73 on the final day, with the other players simply not able to catch up.  Tiger played better on Sunday than he did from Thursday through Saturday, and by definition, that means he played best when the win was on the line.  No question about it.
> 
> ...


Good post. Still I believe mj would have made lebron cramp up physically and mentally. He would have owned lebron and lebron not having that competitiveness in him would have taken it with class


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## rightwinger (May 28, 2018)

IM2 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > IM2 said:
> ...


Much different 

As are the steroids and HGH


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## rightwinger (May 28, 2018)

sealybobo said:


> DGS49 said:
> 
> 
> > LeBron is the greatest basketball player who ever lived.  This is not a statistical observation, but a competitive one.  No one else has ever taken more mediocre teams - personally - to the heights that LeBron has.  MJ won championships with excellent teams, where he was the one player who took them "over the top."  But LeBron CARRIES his teams, most of which have been barely playoff-level teams without him.
> ...


Hard to say

Lebron is a freak of nature. A beast
Hard to physically deal with him


----------



## IM2 (May 28, 2018)

rightwinger said:


> IM2 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



True. Except steroids are nothing new.


----------



## Ridgerunner (May 28, 2018)

sealybobo said:


> No one older than bird and Johnson. Who’ve I missed?



Reggie Miller   

*Points* 25,279 (18.2 ppg)
*3-Pointers* 2,560 (2nd all-time)
*Assists* 4,141 (3.0 apg)


----------



## Old Yeller (May 28, 2018)

They were all dunking, palming and putting on muscle by the late 80s'  Spud Webb was dunking.

They started allowing charging and carrying the ball too IMVHO.  No way ..... in the olden days.

Guys like Havlechek Stockton Sloan Barry were tough and good,  but they had to work hard every minute. They culd not play like these modern athletes with 7' wingspans and giant hands.

Remeber DR.. J and all the ABA coming over in the 80s' ?    Land O' Goshen!  

Oscar Robertson was another great one from what I heard.


----------



## IM2 (May 28, 2018)

rightwinger said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > DGS49 said:
> ...



By todays rules LeBron is tough to deal with, but when Jordan played Lebron would be hitting the ground often. Now think about Jordan playing a game where he can't be hand checked and beat up going to the hole. There ain't no Charles Oakleys and those types who were the size of LeBron now who really had only one job, to beat you up when you came inside. Jordan might average 45 points a game by todays rules


----------



## Ridgerunner (May 28, 2018)

Old Yeller said:


> They culd not play like these modern athletes with 7' wingspans and *giant hands*.



In the early 80's I had a part-time gig helping my BIL on Waikiki Beach... Wilt had a Condo across the street from where I was working and sometimes he would stop and get drink after tanning on the beach... Don't ask why he tanned, but he did... Anyway the point to the story is this man had hands that belonged in a circus... Unphucking believable is what they were... Actually he was a pretty nice guy... But his hands should have been registered lethal weapons...


----------



## IM2 (May 28, 2018)

Old Yeller said:


> They were all dunking, palming and putting on muscle by the late 80s'  Spud Webb was dunking.
> 
> They started allowing charging and carrying the ball too IMVHO.  No way ..... in the olden days.
> 
> ...



All these players work hard. Let's be real about that. And it's up to the refs to make calls.


----------



## IM2 (May 28, 2018)

Ridgerunner said:


> Old Yeller said:
> 
> 
> > They culd not play like these modern athletes with 7' wingspans and *giant hands*.
> ...



Yeah you gotta wonder why he was tanning, but everybody likes to sit on the beach.


----------



## rightwinger (May 28, 2018)

Ridgerunner said:


> Old Yeller said:
> 
> 
> > They culd not play like these modern athletes with 7' wingspans and *giant hands*.
> ...


Andre the Giant sized?


----------



## Ridgerunner (May 28, 2018)

IM2 said:


> Yeah you gotta wonder why he was tanning, but everybody likes to sit on the beach.



I always figured it was the potang… Wilt had quite a rep when it came to women and strangely enough there was women galore on the beach...   



rightwinger said:


> Andre the Giant sized?



Never seen Andre's hands in person so can't say...


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## Old Yeller (May 28, 2018)

GOAT used to be the one who "lost the game" with an error or choke or turnover.


----------



## candycorn (May 28, 2018)

The NBA refereeing is so bastardized that it is hard to say.  It used to be about the game.  Now it's about entertainment.  I wonder how Gervin, English, Russell, Chamberlain, and Oscar Robertson  would fare today if they had the lackadaisical rules that the superstars benefit from today.


----------



## Ridgerunner (May 28, 2018)

I always wanted to open a Luggage Concession and a Travel Agency at Market Square Arena because all of those NBA players were travelin'...


----------



## IM2 (May 28, 2018)

Ridgerunner said:


> IM2 said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah you gotta wonder why he was tanning, but everybody likes to sit on the beach.
> ...



Yeah I think it was about the women. Can't say I blame him either.


----------



## IM2 (May 28, 2018)

candycorn said:


> The NBA refereeing is so bastardized that it is hard to say.  It used to be about the game.  Now it's about entertainment.  I wonder how Gervin, English, Russell, Chamberlain, and Oscar Robertson  would fare today if they had the lackadaisical rules that the superstars benefit from today.



There are a lot of things that make the game different now. The 3 point line opens up the court and so you can do more than jus dump it to a big guy. Some of the better open court players would run amuck today just as they did then.


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## Ridgerunner (May 28, 2018)

IM2 said:


> Yeah I think it was about the women. Can't say I blame him either.



OOOH Nooo… I have liked girls ever since I was a little fellar...


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## IM2 (May 28, 2018)

Ridgerunner said:


> IM2 said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah I think it was about the women. Can't say I blame him either.
> ...



Same here.


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## sealybobo (May 29, 2018)

Ridgerunner said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > No one older than bird and Johnson. Who’ve I missed?
> ...


Would you rather have Durant or bird?


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## rightwinger (May 29, 2018)

candycorn said:


> The NBA refereeing is so bastardized that it is hard to say.  It used to be about the game.  Now it's about entertainment.  I wonder how Gervin, English, Russell, Chamberlain, and Oscar Robertson  would fare today if they had the lackadaisical rules that the superstars benefit from today.



The traveling is hard to believe
They used to call it if you nudged your foot a half an inch. Now, it is four or five steps as long as you make the basket


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## candycorn (May 29, 2018)

rightwinger said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > The NBA refereeing is so bastardized that it is hard to say.  It used to be about the game.  Now it's about entertainment.  I wonder how Gervin, English, Russell, Chamberlain, and Oscar Robertson  would fare today if they had the lackadaisical rules that the superstars benefit from today.
> ...



You can say that again.  The NBA is like the way wrestling used to be...the superstars can do whatever they want and the scrubs have to play by the rules.  I really wonder about Tim Donaghe (sp?) and his accusations about fixing games and the like. That scandal seemed to dry up awfully fast....further I recall one time when a referee named Ed Rush was caught by a microphone court side asking the score keeper "how many fouls does Shaq have" before assigning a foul on a play.  

NBA conspiracy theories


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## rightwinger (May 29, 2018)

candycorn said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > candycorn said:
> ...



Stars have always gotten the calls 
They rarely get called for a foul and get sent to the line for the lightest contact


----------



## IM2 (May 29, 2018)

Michael Jordan - Chicago Bulls - Shooting Guard




_Career averages:_ *30.1 PPG, 6.2 RPG, 5.3 APG, 0.8 BPG, 2.3 SPG*
_Individual Accolades:_ *6-time NBA Champion (1991-1993, 1996-1998), 6-time NBA Finals MVP (1991-1993, 1996-1998), 5-time MVP (1988, 1991, 1992, 1996, 1998), 14-time All-Star selection, 11-time All-NBA selection, 1-time Defensive Player of the Year (1988), 9-time All-Defensive selection, 1985 Rookie of the Year, 10-time Scoring Champion (1987-1993, 1996-1998), 3-time Steals leader (1988, 1990, 1993)
*
Compare these facts to Lebrons and it's quite clear who is the greatest.


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## Ridgerunner (May 29, 2018)

sealybobo said:


> Would you rather have Durant or bird?



Without a doubt Larry Bird... With Chris Mullin sitting in reserve...


----------



## sealybobo (May 31, 2018)

Mac1958 said:


> I've always been a Jordan guy, the Greatest of All Time, but not any more.
> 
> I don't think the sport has seen anything like LeBron James, and I'm not sure ANY sport has.
> 
> ...


If he wins a championship this year he will be the greatest. He’ll, I wouldn’t argue too hard even though I still sort of go with Jordan just because he was such a competitor I think mentally Michael would have owned lebron but damn it’s hard to say anyone was greater than lebron.

Even Jordan would have been in awe of lebron while he was beating him.


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## sealybobo (May 31, 2018)

Oh, and the bulls would have shut lebron down. So would have the bad boys


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## IM2 (Jun 1, 2018)

sealybobo said:


> Mac1958 said:
> 
> 
> > I've always been a Jordan guy, the Greatest of All Time, but not any more.
> ...



Actually it's not that hard IMO. LeBron is no Jordan. Not even close. And LeBron is great but not like that. I really think people have forgotten just how dominant Jordan truly was. He was in his 30's the same age as Lebron, his teams had 2 consecutive 70 win seasons and he averaged over 30 point per game while winning 2 championships.

He won his last title on a 70 -12 team at age 35 averaging over 30 points per game.


----------



## IM2 (Jun 1, 2018)

Ridgerunner said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Would you rather have Durant or bird?
> ...



It's hard to argue against Bird, but Durant is the one I'd take and certainly before Mullin although I liked Mullin also. I really think that people need to look at the players and their games instead of overrating players just because you need something.


----------



## sealybobo (Jun 1, 2018)

IM2 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > Mac1958 said:
> ...


So he had a better team. Lebron did everything he could last night. The cavs should be up 1 to 0.

Lebron is now the goat in my mind. He won that game last night if not for jr Smith.


----------



## IM2 (Jun 1, 2018)

sealybobo said:


> IM2 said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...



That's your opinion. Lebron ran players out of town so if he has to score like that and has to do everything it's his fault. But he's no Jordan. Not even close.


----------



## Wry Catcher (Jun 1, 2018)

Mac1958 said:


> I've always been a Jordan guy, the Greatest of All Time, but not any more.
> 
> I don't think the sport has seen anything like LeBron James, and I'm not sure ANY sport has.
> 
> ...



Well, last night he scored 51 points and even though the Cavs lost he could have won an academy award.  Last night he blocked D. Green, who was being pushed by another Cav, and fell to the floor as if he'd been hit by a truck; there he thrashed about on the floor as if his night on the court was surly over.

Constantly rubbing his eye, he heroically stood and walked to the free throw line and canned both shots all net.  His play is mindful of Soccer, when players fall down as if they died, and a minute or two later they are sprinting to the ball.


----------



## IM2 (Jun 1, 2018)

We are here talking a lot about basketball, but we should not forget men like Gretzky, Bobby Orr, etc.. Doing all that on skates?


----------



## sealybobo (Jun 1, 2018)

IM2 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > IM2 said:
> ...



I don't think Jordan would have done more with that team.


----------



## sealybobo (Jun 1, 2018)

IM2 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > IM2 said:
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Jordan is benefitting from his teams success.

You know who I have lost a little respecct for? Durant. He may win another championship this year but he’s not impressing me like he did last year and years before.


----------



## IM2 (Jun 1, 2018)

sealybobo said:


> IM2 said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...



Lebron ran players out of town. So if he has to carry a team of scrubs it's his fault. Jordan carried the Bulls and Jordan is simply better than Lebron. All of a sudden we are going to make excuses for Lebrons team when for much of his career he's been surrounded by All stars. If Jordan played by todays rules, he'd average 50 points a game. No hand checks, no hard fouls in the lane, Jordan would have a field day.


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## Ridgerunner (Jun 1, 2018)

IM2 said:


> It's hard to argue against Bird, but Durant is the one I'd take and certainly before Mullin although I liked Mullin also. I really think that people need to look at the players and their games instead of overrating players just because you need something.



I choose Bird and Mullin not only for their ability to play ball, but because of their passion and heart for the game... In my guesstimation Mullin had more natural ability for the game than Bird… Bird worked and worked hard at playing ball... Those two and Reggie Miller are my all time favorites...


----------



## IM2 (Jun 1, 2018)

Ridgerunner said:


> IM2 said:
> 
> 
> > It's hard to argue against Bird, but Durant is the one I'd take and certainly before Mullin although I liked Mullin also. I really think that people need to look at the players and their games instead of overrating players just because you need something.
> ...



My thing is that every player playing in the NBA or any other sport worked extremely hard to get there and works harder to stay here. Jordan didn't just wake up one day with those skills. Bird didn't work harder than anyone else. And I liked Bird and Mullin, but I recognize that others existed that were better. Bird was an assassin of the highest order but I'd take Durant over him almost every time.


----------



## Rocko (Jun 1, 2018)

rightwinger said:


> IM2 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


Jordan won defensive player of the year, lebron never has. Lebron is a better rebounder and passer however


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## Rocko (Jun 1, 2018)

Physically lebron is better, skill wise Jordan was better


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## IM2 (Jun 1, 2018)

Rocko said:


> Physically lebron is better, skill wise Jordan was better



Physically Lebron is bigger. But he is not as quick.


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## Ridgerunner (Jun 1, 2018)

IM2 said:


> My thing is that every player playing in the NBA or any other sport worked extremely hard to get there and works harder to stay here. Jordan didn't just wake up one day with those skills. Bird didn't work harder than anyone else. And I liked Bird and Mullin, but I recognize that others existed that were better. Bird was an assassin of the highest order but I'd take Durant over him almost every time.



Oh please believe me I know that none of my picks are ever going to be athletic GOAT's... Larry Bird just did not have the Natural Athletic Ability the great ones have... Let's just say the coaches were not beating down the door to watch Larry Bird play ball... I am not trying to say the MJ did not have to work and work hard to become the player he become (GOAT as far as I am concerned)… I am saying Bird more than likely put in more time than a very large % of College and NBA players to become the level of Player he was... Passion & Heart...


 “I couldn’t wait for school to let out for the summer so I could play ball. I would duck into the gym in between classes to get a few shots up and play again after school into the early hours of the next morning, feeling that sleep was a rude intrusion on my practice time.” Larry Bird

*The senior year*

Former Sycamore coach Bill Hodges, an assistant at Tennessee Tech at the time, recalls seeing Bird play as a junior when he was recruiting the 6-7 Gilstrap. Hodges was among the majority of programs that weren’t interested in Bird’s potential … yet.

“He was a good player — he was a ‘tweener’ — but you don’t jump out and start recruiting a 6-3 wing player,” Hodges recalled. “I liked their [point guard] Danny King [and] eventually ended up recruiting him to Indiana State [from junior college].”

The Bird Years: Small-town beginnings


----------



## IM2 (Jun 1, 2018)

Ridgerunner said:


> IM2 said:
> 
> 
> > My thing is that every player playing in the NBA or any other sport worked extremely hard to get there and works harder to stay here. Jordan didn't just wake up one day with those skills. Bird didn't work harder than anyone else. And I liked Bird and Mullin, but I recognize that others existed that were better. Bird was an assassin of the highest order but I'd take Durant over him almost every time.
> ...



But somehow he ended up playing for Bobby Knight on scholarship as a freshman.

Bird didn't work harder than anyone else in the NBA. He had no more passion and heart than anyone else. You could post the same statement you quoted from Bird to almost any of the NBA players and certainly to the all time greats. Kids from the inner city who would wake up go to the park and play until dark. Nothing against you, but I get tired of how certain types are always portrayed as not having things and how they just outsmarted or worked harder than everyone. Magic wasn't the greatest athlete either but he won 5 championships and went to 9 finals. Yet he never got credit for outworking or outsmarting anyone. Bird was an all time great. He's in the HOF. It doesn't get much better than that.


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## sealybobo (Jun 1, 2018)

IM2 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > IM2 said:
> ...


Hard to argue. I go back and forth. You’ve made good points.

But then what about the Jordan rule? And they would always call fouls on Jordan’s defender. He was protected like Gretzky.

Imagine if jr Smith didn’t screw up and the Cavs went on to win the series. That almost happened last night. The sucky Cavs almost beat green curry Durant and the rest of that crew. Lebron is pretty damn good. Maybe the best. Hard to compare but I know why you think Jordan is the greatest because I agree. But I’m also open to the idea lebron has done more with less


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## sealybobo (Jun 1, 2018)

IM2 said:


> Ridgerunner said:
> 
> 
> > IM2 said:
> ...


Bird probably had to put extra hours in because he wasn’t as naturally gifted.

It’d be nice if Andre Drummond practiced free throws


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## Ridgerunner (Jun 1, 2018)

IM2 said:


> But somehow he ended up playing for Bobby Knight on scholarship as a freshman.



Bird signed a letter of intent with IU... Never played one game for The General...


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## sealybobo (Jun 1, 2018)

IM2 said:


> Ridgerunner said:
> 
> 
> > IM2 said:
> ...


You guys hate it when a guy like Elvis, Eminem bird or Justin Timberlake comes along and white people start saying they’re the greatest of all time.

He’s only the greatest white. Then dirk nowitski. And Walton. Not too many whites in the top 20


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## Rocko (Jun 1, 2018)

IM2 said:


> Rocko said:
> 
> 
> > Physically lebron is better, skill wise Jordan was better
> ...


That’s debatable


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## IM2 (Jun 1, 2018)

Rocko said:


> IM2 said:
> 
> 
> > Rocko said:
> ...



Not really. Lebron has great straight ahead speed but he's at a deficit compared to Jordan when it comes to cutting and shifting. Most of LeBrons attacks to the basket are him going straight ahead. On top of that if you look real close he gives a stiff arm to defenders to begin his move.


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## IM2 (Jun 1, 2018)

sealybobo said:


> IM2 said:
> 
> 
> > Ridgerunner said:
> ...



No, you're wrong. What I dislike is how whites get credit for their minds and hard work while blacks never do. In sports blacks are just lucky and born with superior athletic ability whereby the whites are hard workers who out think everybody. That's what I don't like. And don't get me started on white musicians because the politics of race is even worse there.


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## Bruce_T_Laney (Jun 1, 2018)

Mac1958 said:


> I've always been a Jordan guy, the Greatest of All Time, but not any more.
> 
> I don't think the sport has seen anything like LeBron James, and I'm not sure ANY sport has.
> 
> ...



If King James had to play against Sir Charles, well the King would have fell on his crown...

King James might be great today but Jordan, damn he was something to see and I hated him!

Different type of player, era and so much more...

It is like comparing Babe Ruth to Barry Bonds while forgetting Ruth pitched a few years before becoming the slugger we all remember...


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## dblack (Jun 1, 2018)

Mac1958 said:


> I've always been a Jordan guy, the Greatest of All Time, but not any more.
> 
> I don't think the sport has seen anything like LeBron James, and I'm not sure ANY sport has.
> 
> ...



I don't follow basketball, especially pro. But I happened to catch a game the other day and James execute a behind the back pass that was utterly amazing - and it played like an afterthought.


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## Ridgerunner (Jun 2, 2018)

IM2 said:


> No, you're wrong. What I dislike is how whites get credit for their minds and hard work while blacks never do. In sports blacks are just lucky and born with superior athletic ability whereby the whites are hard workers who out think everybody. That's what I don't like. And don't get me started on white musicians because the politics of race is even worse there.



Color me gone if you turn this into a racial discussion... It is not about race and never has been for me... I thought we were having a civil discourse re: Basket Ball and the Players that make the game great... If everything in your life is about race, my deepest consolation...


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## IM2 (Jun 2, 2018)

sealybobo said:


> IM2 said:
> 
> 
> > Ridgerunner said:
> ...





Ridgerunner said:


> IM2 said:
> 
> 
> > No, you're wrong. What I dislike is how whites get credit for their minds and hard work while blacks never do. In sports blacks are just lucky and born with superior athletic ability whereby the whites are hard workers who out think everybody. That's what I don't like. And don't get me started on white musicians because the politics of race is even worse there.
> ...



Then be gone if you can't say that to the person who bought up race.


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## IM2 (Jun 2, 2018)

Bruce_T_Laney said:


> Mac1958 said:
> 
> 
> > I've always been a Jordan guy, the Greatest of All Time, but not any more.
> ...



Barry was maybe the best but Ruth was third. Let's not forget Hank Aaron.


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## sealybobo (Jun 2, 2018)

IM2 said:


> Bruce_T_Laney said:
> 
> 
> > Mac1958 said:
> ...


Obama was the best?

What about ken Griffey jr?

I have a lot of bonds rookie cards. Hopefully one day he is forgiven for taking steroids. They’ll be worth more.

I could have got $500 each for my Mark McGuire cards. Now they aren’t worth shit


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## IM2 (Jun 2, 2018)

sealybobo said:


> IM2 said:
> 
> 
> > Bruce_T_Laney said:
> ...



What does Obama have to do with this?

IMO Bonds was better than Griffey. Both were great.

I played baseball for 13 years growing up. You have to be able to hit the ball, steroids don't help that. So for a man to hit 762 home runs, that's hall of fame with no argument. McGwire hall of fame no argument. Steroids had nothing to do with thie ability to make contact with a baseball.


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## IM2 (Jun 2, 2018)

And when we talk about athletes we are leaving out hockey players.  I can't skate worth a damn, but these guys are doing so full speed, change directions consistently and they are doing it on ice skates. One of the greatest moves I've seen in any sport was a goal by Gretzky where he made a spin move while skating with the puck, stopped on a dime then shot the puck in for a goal. Now if that's not great athleticism, there is no such thing.


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## Rocko (Jun 3, 2018)

IM2 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > IM2 said:
> ...


Steroids has nothing to do with the ability to make contact, but they have everything to do with making you hit the ball further when you do make contact


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## Mac1958 (Jun 3, 2018)

Rocko said:


> IM2 said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...


Yep.  Bat speed.
.


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## sealybobo (Jun 3, 2018)

IM2 said:


> sealybobo said:
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> 
> > IM2 said:
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They may have even juiced up the balls so they went farther. They did it to get people watching. People loved Sosa McGuire 

Shady era just like the championships in the nba during the Tim Donaghy era


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## sealybobo (Jun 3, 2018)

IM2 said:


> sealybobo said:
> 
> 
> > IM2 said:
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You know how cons call him Barry? It was a joke I thought you’d get


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## sealybobo (Jun 3, 2018)

Mac1958 said:


> Rocko said:
> 
> 
> > IM2 said:
> ...


Well who had the best batting average during that era? He’s the best whoever he is. Ken Griffey jr? He didn’t take steroids.

And have you guys ever taken steroids? What kind? Some can help with bat speed, intensity, focus, etc...


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## IM2 (Jun 3, 2018)

Rocko said:


> IM2 said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...



But you have to hit the ball first and pitchers were using PEDS during that time also.

I think that when you grow up as Barry Bonds the son of a man who was a great baseball player and you get taught baseball by him, Willie Mays, Willie McCovey and the like, you are going to hit a lot of home runs no matter what. The same for Griffey Jr.  He was taught baseball by his father and more of the games greats.


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## Jarlaxle (Jun 10, 2018)

IM2 said:


> DGS49 said:
> 
> 
> > LeBron is the greatest basketball player who ever lived.  This is not a statistical observation, but a competitive one.  No one else has ever taken more mediocre teams - personally - to the heights that LeBron has.  MJ won championships with excellent teams, where he was the one player who took them "over the top."  But LeBron CARRIES his teams, most of which have been barely playoff-level teams without him.
> ...


Ted Williams.[/thread]


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## Jarlaxle (Jun 10, 2018)

candycorn said:


> The NBA refereeing is so bastardized that it is hard to say.  It used to be about the game.  Now it's about entertainment.  I wonder how Gervin, English, Russell, Chamberlain, and Oscar Robertson  would fare today if they had the lackadaisical rules that the superstars benefit from today.


I figure most of the games are rigged.


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## IM2 (Jun 10, 2018)

Jarlaxle said:


> IM2 said:
> 
> 
> > DGS49 said:
> ...



Ted Williams was a great hitter but I don't quite think his all around game was as good.. Trout will be a HOF player.  Bonds and Griffey would have been HOF in any era also.

Jordan was the best BB player of all time based on stats and competition.  James  was on a super team in Miami, he had Wade, Bosh and Ray Allen, 3 hall of famers. He had 2 all stars with him until this last year in Cleveland.  He's carried a team exactly one year. And he carried this years team because he ran everybody else out. Jordan played when you could hand check and it was much more physical and still averaged 30 points a game for his career. James maybe has one season in a less physical game were he barely averaged 30 points. Had Jordan played now, with the lack of contact, he'd average 50 points a game. We're caught up in the moment, but James is not the GOAT.


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## candycorn (Jun 10, 2018)

Jarlaxle said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > The NBA refereeing is so bastardized that it is hard to say.  It used to be about the game.  Now it's about entertainment.  I wonder how Gervin, English, Russell, Chamberlain, and Oscar Robertson  would fare today if they had the lackadaisical rules that the superstars benefit from today.
> ...



Sometimes I do and sometimes I do not.  One would think that the reason for any such “fixing” would be to increase revenues….  Two smaller market teams making the finals in consecutive years is a counterfactual to be sure.  However…if you buy into the “superstars make the game” coupled with a “rising tide lifts all boats”, allowing LeBron to get a few extra steps or (dating myself) giving Olajuwon an extra step on his turnaround jumper you get bigger crowd sizes where ever they go and increase revenues for the owners.  This could be easily controlled by the league.


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## Jarlaxle (Jun 10, 2018)

Read _Personal Foul_.


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## candycorn (Jun 13, 2018)

sealybobo said:


> Ridgerunner said:
> 
> 
> > sealybobo said:
> ...



A few years ago...I think I would have said no contest.  But I think the question has merit now.


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## evenflow1969 (Jul 23, 2018)

MarathonMike said:


> IM2 said:
> 
> 
> > MarathonMike said:
> ...


One thing people do not take into account when comparing Nicklaus and Tiger is that Tiger had cavity backed Irons and Oversized drivers that Nicklaus did not!


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## evenflow1969 (Jul 23, 2018)

Tom Horn said:


> IM2 said:
> 
> 
> > I think that if they train 5 days a week to do that, they are very capable of doing so. You try sprinting the 8-9 miles they do per game. These men are in tremendous shape. And I think that if they were SEALS they could do what the seals do with the same training. You see junior, the body will do what it's rained to do. Those seals did not show up on their first day able to do the shit you talk about. Apparently you know nothing about training and the difference between sports and war. Those SEALS are soldiers, not athletes, and they are not preparing for a game, they are preparing to try surviving in a war. Those NBA players can be trained to do the same thing. And one thing is for certain, that when they show up for basic they'll be in better shape initially than the others trying to be SEALS and it will take them less time to be in good enough shape to fight than the average SEAL.
> ...


You and sunnifuck are the biggest dumb fucks on the entire site.


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## DGS49 (Jul 23, 2018)

The "best" basketball player of all time is a matter of debate.  The "greatest" player was Wilt Chamberlain - no question.  Unstoppable offensively, greatest rebounder of all time, overwhelming defensively (teams had to adjust their offense, entirely due to his presence).  Never fouled out of a game.  Never.

Couldn't dribble very well.  Couldn't shoot foul shots.

Russell?  If he had played anywhere but for Auerbach, nobody would even remember his name.


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## PK1 (Jul 23, 2018)

Mac1958 said:


> I've always been a Jordan guy, the Greatest of All Time, but not any more.
> 
> I don't think the sport has seen anything like LeBron James, and I'm not sure ANY sport has.
> 
> ...


Indeed, Lebron is amazing, and i’d give him my vote for MVP of all NBA time, ahead of Michael.


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## Papageorgio (Jul 23, 2018)

I’m still thinking Jordan is, but Lebron has a couple more years left.


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## Liberty777 (Aug 1, 2018)

Lebron is the greatest point guard of all time, but I just feel he lacks that “dog” mentality to be compared to Jordan.


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