# Visiting NYC in a few Weeks



## candycorn

Need some on-site intel:

We’ll be heading up the Hudson River Valley and visiting West Point on one of the trips.  

I see that there are multiple roads to take that all seem to wind up in the same area:  

Can anyone compare/contrast the Taconic Parkway, I 87, and State Highway 9?  Looks like 87 and 9 are the ones to take if you’re going to make stops along the way up to Hudson; the other seems to be the “express route”.  

Any stunning insights into NYC we should look at

Thanks,


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## TNHarley

I would LOVE to visit that city! Enjoy your trip!


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## Bruce_T_Laney

Have not been there since 1993. Good luck and do not drive.


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## TNHarley

Bruce_T_Laney said:


> Have not been there since 1993. Good luck and do not drive.


 there is no way I would drive in NYC. Nashville is bad enough lol


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## Hugo Furst

Were I to make a trip to NYC, I'd have to make a night trip to The Great White Way, just to see the lights on the marquees, and a visit to the Statue of Liberty.

But, not being a democrat, I have no compulsion to pay homage to their holy city.


----------



## usmbguest5318

candycorn said:


> Any stunning insights into NYC we should look at


Go out to eat at any of the following:

Chef’s Table at Brooklyn 
Eleven Madison Park -- This one is always fun because it's a tasting menu and it's always only what's most freshly available that day.
Jean-Georges 
Per Se 
Masa
Le Bernardin
Benoit -- my current fav
Call for reservations today.

Go to Le Bain in the evening.  Alternatively, Dream Downtown has two great options:  Electric Room and PHD.  Between them I prefer the Room, but PHD is nice when I've got guests I'm showing around.  My kids like Avenue.


----------



## candycorn

Xelor said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any stunning insights into NYC we should look at
> 
> 
> 
> Go out to eat at any of the following:
> 
> Chef’s Table at Brooklyn
> Eleven Madison Park -- This one is always fun because it's a tasting menu and it's always only what's most freshly available that day.
> Jean-Georges
> Per Se
> Masa
> Le Bernardin
> Benoit -- my current fav
> Call for reservations today.
> 
> Go to Le Bain in the evening.  Alternatively, Dream Downtown has two great options:  Electric Room and PHD.  Between them I prefer the Room, but PHD is nice when I've got guests I'm showing around.  My kids like Avenue.
Click to expand...


“CHEF’S TABLE AT BROOKLYN”?  Is that the name of the place?

Thanks .  Any opinion on the the road up to Hudson?


----------



## candycorn

TNHarley said:


> I would LOVE to visit that city! Enjoy your trip!



Thanks.


----------



## candycorn

WillHaftawaite said:


> Were I to make a trip to NYC, I'd have to make a night trip to The Great White Way, just to see the lights on the marquees, and a visit to the Statue of Liberty.
> 
> But, not being a democrat, I have no compulsion to pay homage to their holy city.



Does politics have to permeate every facet of your life?  pfft.


----------



## candycorn

TNHarley said:


> Bruce_T_Laney said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have not been there since 1993. Good luck and do not drive.
> 
> 
> 
> there is no way I would drive in NYC. Nashville is bad enough lol
Click to expand...


Love driving in the canyons of the cities.  Thats just me.


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## TheOldSchool

Katz deli is even more worth it than what you've heard


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## usmbguest5318

candycorn said:


> Xelor said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any stunning insights into NYC we should look at
> 
> 
> 
> Go out to eat at any of the following:
> 
> Chef’s Table at Brooklyn
> Eleven Madison Park -- This one is always fun because it's a tasting menu and it's always only what's most freshly available that day.
> Jean-Georges
> Per Se
> Masa
> Le Bernardin
> Benoit -- my current fav
> Call for reservations today.
> 
> Go to Le Bain in the evening.  Alternatively, Dream Downtown has two great options:  Electric Room and PHD.  Between them I prefer the Room, but PHD is nice when I've got guests I'm showing around.  My kids like Avenue.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> “CHEF’S TABLE AT BROOKLYN”?  Is that the name of the place?
> 
> Thanks .  Any opinion on the the road up to Hudson?
Click to expand...




candycorn said:


> “CHEF’S TABLE AT BROOKLYN”? Is that the name of the place?



Yes, that is the name of the restaurant. It's basically a really good restaurant that seats patrons in a chicly austere meant to evoke in one's mind what it might be like to eat at a counter in the kitchen at a fine restaurant.  

Memories of eating out:
Back in the old days, the days when dining out was part of what one did regularly as a member of the social set, regulars at a "white tablecloth" restaurant might on occasion show up unannounced when there is no available table in the dining room and one was yet genuinely famished.  As a courtesy, the chef might once in a while (or more often if one was, outside of the eatery, genuinely friends with the chef) offer one a place at the staff table or at his table -- literally just a plain table where the chef planned menus, placed orders, etc. -- in the back of the kitchen. 

(In the days of segregation, many a black ate in the kitchen at restaurants that wouldn't seat them in the dining room.  A friend joked -- I think, he was joking -- black folks were from whom white chefs learned how to fry chicken and cook collard greens, and, most importantly for the business, how to turn "poor" cuts into the most profitable things on the menu.  Have you ever had veal cheeks or pig ears?  You should if you haven't.)

In other establishments, the chef's table was the table for two set right outside the dining room entrance to the kitchen.  The table served the same purpose, of course, but unless they were "starving," paying "social" customers' never wanted to sit there, understandably, because of the noise and the traffic. One simply could not sit there and hold a conversation in the politely hushed tones appropriate to a restaurant.  

Gourmands, restaurant critics and social climbers -- one had to start somewhere if one had to "climb" -- didn't mind.  Indeed, it was rather customary that in consolation for taking such a dreadful table, or as an apology for seating one in the kitchen, the chef would bestow one with an _amuse bouche_ or three over the course of the standard five course meal.  On rarer occasions, one might be offered a complimentary bottle of wine -- typically a bottle a purveyor had left for evaluation --  that wasn't on the wine list if one routinely bought wine and was known to be a connoisseur.  

For friends of the house or chef, sitting at the chef's table could become a real saporific adventure.  That happened when, after being seated, one was asked something like, "What would you like this evening?  We are out of crab tonight, but we have sole, mussels, scallops, lamb, veal, chicken, beef, and pork, or we could prepare a pasta or hearty soup using any of those things as the main, if you'd like."  One'd choose a protein and leave everything else up to the chef.  One was in for among the best dining experiences imaginable when that happened.  

With critics, that little bit of"putting on the dog" like that bought the chef some benefit of the doubt, if you will, always useful in case something came out the kitchen that wasn't quite up to snuff.  Moreover, back then, there was basically no such thing as a food critic who wasn't also a lush. LOL  Remember what I said about the wine?  Well libated critics write good reviews, even if only because they have at least enough integrity not to write something scathing about a meal they can barely remember.  LOL

Regardless of how and why one found oneself at the chef's table, however, sitting there was always a treat for the tastebuds.  Chefs are artists and they love to show off, but they can't do really do that for a whole restaurant of diners -- it's not cost or time effective for them to do so -- but in exchange for accepting the bad table and making it profitable, one got to sample a much more interesting assortment of the chef's talent.

Skipping forward some 30 or so years during which time large quantities of Americans became familiar with tapas, teppanyaki, sushi bars, and, of course, "suffering" at the chef's table, and, voila, we have tasting menu restaurants.  Chef's Table at Brooklyn has a modern, swanky teppanyaki-sushi bar feel that invites socializing with others, which, as a business traveller who occasionally eats alone, it's a great place for doing that, though as all restaurants, it's best enjoyed with a friend, at CTB, ideally one with whom one won't trade business secrets or salacious gossip.  I wouldn't recommend it for groups larger than three or four (reserve corner seats if there are four of you) due to the seating arrangements, however it's fine fine for couples dining out together but sort of separately.  



candycorn said:


> Any opinion on the the road up to Hudson?



I'm sorry.  I can't really say much at all about driving around the Hudson Valley.  The most I've done are short car rides from Airhaven (just east of Poughkeepsie) to Poughkeepsie, Hyde Park and whatnot in the immediate area.  

If you're of a mind to drive north of the Point, FDR's home and a Vanderbilt museum are in Hyde Park, which with its two lane roads and ubiquitous escarpments, the Hyde Park area offers one bucolically charming view after another. The Culinary Institute of America has a Hyde Park branch and it has a bevy of restaurants from which you may choose.  All of that stuff is roughly an hour's drive north of The Point on US 9.  (I'd say take US 9W to go north instead of 9 so you can avoid IBM.  If Vasser is on your itinerary, however, may as well go with US 9.)

What's taking you to The Point, BTW?  Going over Memorial Day weekend, by any chance?  If so, congratulations to your Ring Knocker.


----------



## OldLady

TNHarley said:


> Bruce_T_Laney said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have not been there since 1993. Good luck and do not drive.
> 
> 
> 
> there is no way I would drive in NYC. Nashville is bad enough lol
Click to expand...

I thought it would be scary too, but after 13 years of commuting in Connecticut, I found NYC to be pretty much more of the same.  The only hard part was not knowing the roads and which lane to be in when.  If I went to NYC for a visit, I would never drive.  Parking is impossible, anyway.  The city has excellent public transportation.  Take advantage of it.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

candycorn said:


> Need some on-site intel:
> 
> We’ll be heading up the Hudson River Valley and visiting West Point on one of the trips.
> 
> I see that there are multiple roads to take that all seem to wind up in the same area:
> 
> Can anyone compare/contrast the Taconic Parkway, I 87, and State Highway 9?  Looks like 87 and 9 are the ones to take if you’re going to make stops along the way up to Hudson; the other seems to be the “express route”.
> 
> Any stunning insights into NYC we should look at
> 
> Thanks,


Palisades Pkwy is the most scenic


----------



## Toro

Traffic is awful in Midtown and parking is outrageous. But New York is a great city. 

Manhattan is safe. I've never once felt threatened there.


----------



## OldLady

candycorn said:


> Need some on-site intel:
> 
> We’ll be heading up the Hudson River Valley and visiting West Point on one of the trips.
> 
> I see that there are multiple roads to take that all seem to wind up in the same area:
> 
> Can anyone compare/contrast the Taconic Parkway, I 87, and State Highway 9?  Looks like 87 and 9 are the ones to take if you’re going to make stops along the way up to Hudson; the other seems to be the “express route”.
> 
> Any stunning insights into NYC we should look at
> 
> Thanks,


I 87 is thruway/turnpike, divided highway.


----------



## westwall

OldLady said:


> TNHarley said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bruce_T_Laney said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have not been there since 1993. Good luck and do not drive.
> 
> 
> 
> there is no way I would drive in NYC. Nashville is bad enough lol
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I thought it would be scary too, but after 13 years of commuting in Connecticut, I found NYC to be pretty much more of the same.  The only hard part was not knowing the roads and which lane to be in when.  If I went to NYC for a visit, I would never drive.  Parking is impossible, anyway.  The city has excellent public transportation.  Take advantage of it.
Click to expand...







Far better is a car service.  There are loads of them and they are relatively inexpensive if you book them for the week.  The drivers know the various out of the way spots too (no doubt they are related to the proprietors!) so you get a better experience of the local flora and fauna.


----------



## westwall

Toro said:


> Traffic is awful in Midtown and parking is outrageous. But New York is a great city.
> 
> Manhattan is safe. I've never once felt threatened there.







Harlem too, is nice.


----------



## OldLady

Xelor said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Xelor said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any stunning insights into NYC we should look at
> 
> 
> 
> Go out to eat at any of the following:
> 
> Chef’s Table at Brooklyn
> Eleven Madison Park -- This one is always fun because it's a tasting menu and it's always only what's most freshly available that day.
> Jean-Georges
> Per Se
> Masa
> Le Bernardin
> Benoit -- my current fav
> Call for reservations today.
> 
> Go to Le Bain in the evening.  Alternatively, Dream Downtown has two great options:  Electric Room and PHD.  Between them I prefer the Room, but PHD is nice when I've got guests I'm showing around.  My kids like Avenue.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> “CHEF’S TABLE AT BROOKLYN”?  Is that the name of the place?
> 
> Thanks .  Any opinion on the the road up to Hudson?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> 
> “CHEF’S TABLE AT BROOKLYN”? Is that the name of the place?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, that is the name of the restaurant. It's basically a really good restaurant that seats patrons in a chicly austere meant to evoke in one's mind what it might be like to eat at a counter in the kitchen at a fine restaurant.
> 
> Memories of eating out:
> Back in the old days, the days when dining out was part of what one did regularly as a member of the social set, regulars at a "white tablecloth" restaurant might on occasion show up unannounced when there is no available table in the dining room and one was yet genuinely famished.  As a courtesy, the chef might once in a while (or more often if one was, outside of the eatery, genuinely friends with the chef) offer one a place at the staff table or at his table -- literally just a plain table where the chef planned menus, placed orders, etc. -- in the back of the kitchen.
> 
> (In the days of segregation, many a black ate in the kitchen at restaurants that wouldn't seat them in the dining room.  A friend joked -- I think, he was joking -- black folks were from whom white chefs learned how to fry chicken and cook collard greens, and, most importantly for the business, how to turn "poor" cuts into the most profitable things on the menu.  Have you ever had veal cheeks or pig ears?  You should if you haven't.)
> 
> In other establishments, the chef's table was the table for two set right outside the dining room entrance to the kitchen.  The table served the same purpose, of course, but unless they were "starving," paying "social" customers' never wanted to sit there, understandably, because of the noise and the traffic. One simply could not sit there and hold a conversation in the politely hushed tones appropriate to a restaurant.
> 
> Gourmands, restaurant critics and social climbers -- one had to start somewhere if one had to "climb" -- didn't mind.  Indeed, it was rather customary that in consolation for taking such a dreadful table, or as an apology for seating one in the kitchen, the chef would bestow one with an _amuse bouche_ or three over the course of the standard five course meal.  On rarer occasions, one might be offered a complimentary bottle of wine -- typically a bottle a purveyor had left for evaluation --  that wasn't on the wine list if one routinely bought wine and was known to be a connoisseur.
> 
> For friends of the house or chef, sitting at the chef's table could become a real saporific adventure.  That happened when, after being seated, one was asked something like, "What would you like this evening?  We are out of crab tonight, but we have sole, mussels, scallops, lamb, veal, chicken, beef, and pork, or we could prepare a pasta or hearty soup using any of those things as the main, if you'd like."  One'd choose a protein and leave everything else up to the chef.  One was in for among the best dining experiences imaginable when that happened.
> 
> With critics, that little bit of"putting on the dog" like that bought the chef some benefit of the doubt, if you will, always useful in case something came out the kitchen that wasn't quite up to snuff.  Moreover, back then, there was basically no such thing as a food critic who wasn't also a lush. LOL  Remember what I said about the wine?  Well libated critics write good reviews, even if only because they have at least enough integrity not to write something scathing about a meal they can barely remember.  LOL
> 
> Regardless of how and why one found oneself at the chef's table, however, sitting there was always a treat for the tastebuds.  Chefs are artists and they love to show off, but they can't do really do that for a whole restaurant of diners -- it's not cost or time effective for them to do so -- but in exchange for accepting the bad table and making it profitable, one got to sample a much more interesting assortment of the chef's talent.
> 
> Skipping forward some 30 or so years during which time large quantities of Americans became familiar with tapas, teppanyaki, sushi bars, and, of course, "suffering" at the chef's table, and, voila, we have tasting menu restaurants.  Chef's Table at Brooklyn has a modern, swanky teppanyaki-sushi bar feel that invites socializing with others, which, as a business traveller who occasionally eats alone, it's a great place for doing that, though as all restaurants, it's best enjoyed with a friend, at CTB, ideally one with whom one won't trade business secrets or salacious gossip.  I wouldn't recommend it for groups larger than three or four (reserve corner seats if there are four of you) due to the seating arrangements, however it's fine fine for couples dining out together but sort of separately.
> 
> 
> 
> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any opinion on the the road up to Hudson?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm sorry.  I can't really say much at all about driving around the Hudson Valley.  The most I've done are short car rides from Airhaven (just east of Poughkeepsie) to Poughkeepsie, Hyde Park and whatnot in the immediate area.
> 
> If you're of a mind to drive north of the Point, FDR's home and a Vanderbilt museum are in Hyde Park, which with its two lane roads and ubiquitous escarpments, the Hyde Park area offers one bucolically charming view after another. The Culinary Institute of America has a Hyde Park branch and it has a bevy of restaurants from which you may choose.  All of that stuff is roughly an hour's drive north of The Point on US 9.  (I'd say take US 9W to go north instead of 9 so you can avoid IBM.  If Vasser is on your itinerary, however, may as well go with US 9.)
> 
> What's taking you to The Point, BTW?  Going over Memorial Day weekend, by any chance?  If so, congratulations to your Ring Knocker.
Click to expand...

Can't imagine wanting to eat at the chef's table anywhere.  Sounds like the food is great, but having worked in some actual kitchens, the last thing I'd want is to eat even great food in one.  They're hot, noisy, full of screaming chefs.  Yuck.


----------



## OldLady

westwall said:


> Toro said:
> 
> 
> 
> Traffic is awful in Midtown and parking is outrageous. But New York is a great city.
> 
> Manhattan is safe. I've never once felt threatened there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Harlem too, is nice.
Click to expand...

Is it really, now?  Last time I went through it, more than thirty years ago, it was in pretty bad shape.


----------



## westwall

OldLady said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toro said:
> 
> 
> 
> Traffic is awful in Midtown and parking is outrageous. But New York is a great city.
> 
> Manhattan is safe. I've never once felt threatened there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Harlem too, is nice.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Is it really, now?  Last time I went through it, more than thirty years ago, it was in pretty bad shape.
Click to expand...








They've cleaned it up pretty good now.  Yeah, there are a few spots that are still pretty nasty, but overall it is pretty nice now.  Kind of a hidden gem.  Give them a few more years and it will be really nice.


----------



## fbj

candycorn said:


> Need some on-site intel:
> 
> We’ll be heading up the Hudson River Valley and visiting West Point on one of the trips.
> 
> I see that there are multiple roads to take that all seem to wind up in the same area:
> 
> Can anyone compare/contrast the Taconic Parkway, I 87, and State Highway 9?  Looks like 87 and 9 are the ones to take if you’re going to make stops along the way up to Hudson; the other seems to be the “express route”.
> 
> Any stunning insights into NYC we should look at
> 
> Thanks,




I;m going back on April 29th.   I was just in NYC on March 9th and enjoyed it.

If you like seafood I recommend Bubba Gump Seafood Restaurant


----------



## usmbguest5318

I forgot to mention this...how could I?  If you are driving north out of NYC, just a stone's throw north of the Tappan Zee Bridge on US 9 is the historic town of Sleepy Hollow, NY.  Washington Irving is buried there and the Old Dutch Church graveyard next door is the setting for _The Legend of Sleepy Hollow_.  (Remember I mentioned Route 9 in mentioning a few things to do north of The Point in the Hudson Valley -- the Tappan Zee  crosses Hudson and 9 parallels it.)

Another thing that may appeal to you is winery visiting.  NY has some nice wineries in the Hudson Valley.  Google's going to be your friend on that one, for I haven't been to them.  I merely know they are there.


----------



## rightwinger

candycorn said:


> Need some on-site intel:
> 
> We’ll be heading up the Hudson River Valley and visiting West Point on one of the trips.
> 
> I see that there are multiple roads to take that all seem to wind up in the same area:
> 
> Can anyone compare/contrast the Taconic Parkway, I 87, and State Highway 9?  Looks like 87 and 9 are the ones to take if you’re going to make stops along the way up to Hudson; the other seems to be the “express route”.
> 
> Any stunning insights into NYC we should look at
> 
> Thanks,



87 is fastest but not scenic
Route 9 has traffic lights every half mile

Taconic and Palisades Parkway are nicer drives


----------



## candycorn

rightwinger said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Need some on-site intel:
> 
> We’ll be heading up the Hudson River Valley and visiting West Point on one of the trips.
> 
> I see that there are multiple roads to take that all seem to wind up in the same area:
> 
> Can anyone compare/contrast the Taconic Parkway, I 87, and State Highway 9?  Looks like 87 and 9 are the ones to take if you’re going to make stops along the way up to Hudson; the other seems to be the “express route”.
> 
> Any stunning insights into NYC we should look at
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 87 is fastest but not scenic
> Route 9 has traffic lights every half mile
> 
> Taconic and Palisades Parkway are nicer drives
Click to expand...


Read on Google that Taconic was dangerous...doesn't look treacherous at all.  any truth to that?


----------



## candycorn

Xelor said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Xelor said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any stunning insights into NYC we should look at
> 
> 
> 
> Go out to eat at any of the following:
> 
> Chef’s Table at Brooklyn
> Eleven Madison Park -- This one is always fun because it's a tasting menu and it's always only what's most freshly available that day.
> Jean-Georges
> Per Se
> Masa
> Le Bernardin
> Benoit -- my current fav
> Call for reservations today.
> 
> Go to Le Bain in the evening.  Alternatively, Dream Downtown has two great options:  Electric Room and PHD.  Between them I prefer the Room, but PHD is nice when I've got guests I'm showing around.  My kids like Avenue.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> “CHEF’S TABLE AT BROOKLYN”?  Is that the name of the place?
> 
> Thanks .  Any opinion on the the road up to Hudson?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> 
> “CHEF’S TABLE AT BROOKLYN”? Is that the name of the place?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, that is the name of the restaurant. It's basically a really good restaurant that seats patrons in a chicly austere meant to evoke in one's mind what it might be like to eat at a counter in the kitchen at a fine restaurant.
> 
> Memories of eating out:
> Back in the old days, the days when dining out was part of what one did regularly as a member of the social set, regulars at a "white tablecloth" restaurant might on occasion show up unannounced when there is no available table in the dining room and one was yet genuinely famished.  As a courtesy, the chef might once in a while (or more often if one was, outside of the eatery, genuinely friends with the chef) offer one a place at the staff table or at his table -- literally just a plain table where the chef planned menus, placed orders, etc. -- in the back of the kitchen.
> 
> (In the days of segregation, many a black ate in the kitchen at restaurants that wouldn't seat them in the dining room.  A friend joked -- I think, he was joking -- black folks were from whom white chefs learned how to fry chicken and cook collard greens, and, most importantly for the business, how to turn "poor" cuts into the most profitable things on the menu.  Have you ever had veal cheeks or pig ears?  You should if you haven't.)
> 
> In other establishments, the chef's table was the table for two set right outside the dining room entrance to the kitchen.  The table served the same purpose, of course, but unless they were "starving," paying "social" customers' never wanted to sit there, understandably, because of the noise and the traffic. One simply could not sit there and hold a conversation in the politely hushed tones appropriate to a restaurant.
> 
> Gourmands, restaurant critics and social climbers -- one had to start somewhere if one had to "climb" -- didn't mind.  Indeed, it was rather customary that in consolation for taking such a dreadful table, or as an apology for seating one in the kitchen, the chef would bestow one with an _amuse bouche_ or three over the course of the standard five course meal.  On rarer occasions, one might be offered a complimentary bottle of wine -- typically a bottle a purveyor had left for evaluation --  that wasn't on the wine list if one routinely bought wine and was known to be a connoisseur.
> 
> For friends of the house or chef, sitting at the chef's table could become a real saporific adventure.  That happened when, after being seated, one was asked something like, "What would you like this evening?  We are out of crab tonight, but we have sole, mussels, scallops, lamb, veal, chicken, beef, and pork, or we could prepare a pasta or hearty soup using any of those things as the main, if you'd like."  One'd choose a protein and leave everything else up to the chef.  One was in for among the best dining experiences imaginable when that happened.
> 
> With critics, that little bit of"putting on the dog" like that bought the chef some benefit of the doubt, if you will, always useful in case something came out the kitchen that wasn't quite up to snuff.  Moreover, back then, there was basically no such thing as a food critic who wasn't also a lush. LOL  Remember what I said about the wine?  Well libated critics write good reviews, even if only because they have at least enough integrity not to write something scathing about a meal they can barely remember.  LOL
> 
> Regardless of how and why one found oneself at the chef's table, however, sitting there was always a treat for the tastebuds.  Chefs are artists and they love to show off, but they can't do really do that for a whole restaurant of diners -- it's not cost or time effective for them to do so -- but in exchange for accepting the bad table and making it profitable, one got to sample a much more interesting assortment of the chef's talent.
> 
> Skipping forward some 30 or so years during which time large quantities of Americans became familiar with tapas, teppanyaki, sushi bars, and, of course, "suffering" at the chef's table, and, voila, we have tasting menu restaurants.  Chef's Table at Brooklyn has a modern, swanky teppanyaki-sushi bar feel that invites socializing with others, which, as a business traveller who occasionally eats alone, it's a great place for doing that, though as all restaurants, it's best enjoyed with a friend, at CTB, ideally one with whom one won't trade business secrets or salacious gossip.  I wouldn't recommend it for groups larger than three or four (reserve corner seats if there are four of you) due to the seating arrangements, however it's fine fine for couples dining out together but sort of separately.
> 
> 
> 
> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any opinion on the the road up to Hudson?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm sorry.  I can't really say much at all about driving around the Hudson Valley.  The most I've done are short car rides from Airhaven (just east of Poughkeepsie) to Poughkeepsie, Hyde Park and whatnot in the immediate area.
> 
> If you're of a mind to drive north of the Point, FDR's home and a Vanderbilt museum are in Hyde Park, which with its two lane roads and ubiquitous escarpments, the Hyde Park area offers one bucolically charming view after another. The Culinary Institute of America has a Hyde Park branch and it has a bevy of restaurants from which you may choose.  All of that stuff is roughly an hour's drive north of The Point on US 9.  (I'd say take US 9W to go north instead of 9 so you can avoid IBM.  If Vasser is on your itinerary, however, may as well go with US 9.)
> 
> What's taking you to The Point, BTW?  Going over Memorial Day weekend, by any chance?  If so, congratulations to your Ring Knocker.
Click to expand...


Not sure. We're going to some function at the place on the 29th.


----------



## usmbguest5318

westwall said:


> Toro said:
> 
> 
> 
> Traffic is awful in Midtown and parking is outrageous. But New York is a great city.
> 
> *Manhattan is safe.* I've never once felt threatened there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Harlem too*, is nice.
Click to expand...


Redundant.  All of Harlem is in Manhattan.  So is all of Midtown.


----------



## Toro

jillian has always given me some great ideas for the City.

I recommend staying away from Times Square, or anything around it.  Yes, you have to see it once.  But after that, it's just a giant tourist trap.


----------



## rightwinger

Toro said:


> jillian has always given me some great ideas for the City.
> 
> I recommend staying away from Times Square, or anything around it.  Yes, you have to see it once.  But after that, it's just a giant tourist trap.


You gotta do Times Square and that is where all the theaters are


----------



## fbj

Toro said:


> jillian has always given me some great ideas for the City.
> 
> I recommend staying away from Times Square, or anything around it.  Yes, you have to see it once.  But after that, it's just a giant tourist trap.




Times Square is beautiful


----------



## fbj

Toro said:


> jillian has always given me some great ideas for the City.
> 
> I recommend staying away from Times Square, or anything around it.  Yes, you have to see it once.  But after that, it's just a giant tourist trap.




Times Square is Gorgeous at night


----------



## usmbguest5318

BTW, if will find yourself driving through NJ, you may find this interesting:

Timeline: A brief history of why you can't pump your own gas in New Jersey


----------



## fbj

Xelor said:


> BTW, if will find yourself driving through NJ, you may find this interesting:
> 
> Timeline: A brief history of why you can't pump your own gas in New Jersey




That's why my family love going to jersey


----------



## candycorn

After we head to Hudson, we are toying with the idea of seeing Niagra Falls (from the Canadian side).  Anyone been?  Worth the trip?  Do we need a passport if we’re driving?


----------



## rightwinger

candycorn said:


> After we head to Hudson, we are toying with the idea of seeing Niagra Falls (from the Canadian side).  Anyone been?  Worth the trip?  Do we need a passport if we’re driving?



It is around a seven hour drive from NYC. Worth crossing off your bucket list. I think you need a passport but may get by with a drivers license and birth certificate

While there, you will be able to pay to see the falls from the side above the falls, from the side below the falls, from above, from below on a boat, from inside the falls, from Canada, from the US, at night.....by the time you leave, you are sick of them


----------



## candycorn

rightwinger said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> 
> After we head to Hudson, we are toying with the idea of seeing Niagra Falls (from the Canadian side).  Anyone been?  Worth the trip?  Do we need a passport if we’re driving?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is around a seven hour drive from NYC. Worth crossing off your bucket list. I think you need a passport but may get by with a drivers license and birth certificate
> 
> While there, you will be able to pay to see the falls from the side above the falls, from the side below the falls, from above, from below on a boat, from inside the falls, from Canada, from the US, at night.....by the time you leave, you are sick of them
Click to expand...



The prevailing plan is to hit Cooperstown for 1-2 days then move on to Niagara.  We’re crossing the freedom bridge then staying at one of the hotels in Canada facing the Horseshoe falls. 

I noticed they put broccoli on their pizza in Canada.  Is that some sort of attempt to be unique?


----------



## rightwinger

candycorn said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> 
> After we head to Hudson, we are toying with the idea of seeing Niagra Falls (from the Canadian side).  Anyone been?  Worth the trip?  Do we need a passport if we’re driving?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is around a seven hour drive from NYC. Worth crossing off your bucket list. I think you need a passport but may get by with a drivers license and birth certificate
> 
> While there, you will be able to pay to see the falls from the side above the falls, from the side below the falls, from above, from below on a boat, from inside the falls, from Canada, from the US, at night.....by the time you leave, you are sick of them
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The prevailing plan is to hit Cooperstown for 1-2 days then move on to Niagara.  We’re crossing the freedom bridge then staying at one of the hotels in Canada facing the Horseshoe falls.
> 
> I noticed they put broccoli on their pizza in Canada.  Is that some sort of attempt to be unique?
Click to expand...


Cooperstown itself is worth maybe a day, but the area and Finger Lakes region is very scenic

Doesn't matter what Canadians put on their pizza, it still sucks. NYC pizza is the best...do your pizza pig out there


----------



## NoNukes

candycorn said:


> Xelor said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any stunning insights into NYC we should look at
> 
> 
> 
> Go out to eat at any of the following:
> 
> Chef’s Table at Brooklyn
> Eleven Madison Park -- This one is always fun because it's a tasting menu and it's always only what's most freshly available that day.
> Jean-Georges
> Per Se
> Masa
> Le Bernardin
> Benoit -- my current fav
> Call for reservations today.
> 
> Go to Le Bain in the evening.  Alternatively, Dream Downtown has two great options:  Electric Room and PHD.  Between them I prefer the Room, but PHD is nice when I've got guests I'm showing around.  My kids like Avenue.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> “CHEF’S TABLE AT BROOKLYN”?  Is that the name of the place?
> 
> Thanks .  Any opinion on the the road up to Hudson?
Click to expand...

If you like Asian food, there is a Korean bar on Avenue A called Fat Buddha that has great food, live DJs and good drinks. My wife and I love it and go there a few times on our trips to New York, and have to fight to not go there every night. We are there enough during the year that the staff thinks that we are New Yorkers, even though we live in Ireland.


----------



## usmbguest5318

candycorn, how was your trip?  What route did you end up choosing to take?


----------



## usmbguest5318

candycorn said:


> Do we need a passport if we’re driving?


You most certainly do.  "Driver's license will do" days for trips to Canada are over.

On the upside, if you overstay your visa, Canadian authorities probably won't hunt you down.  LOL


----------



## Skull Pilot

you couldn't pay me enough to go to NYC again

I went once.  it stunk, it was loud and impossible to get any any sleep and the people were all assholes

so have fun


----------



## OldLady

candycorn said:


> After we head to Hudson, we are toying with the idea of seeing Niagra Falls (from the Canadian side).  Anyone been?  Worth the trip?  Do we need a passport if we’re driving?


I've been to Niagara Falls many times.  Yes, you want to go to the Canadian side, so you need your passport.  If you go in Spring/Summer/Fall, the parks are lovely.  The Canadians know how to do things up right.  There are a bazillion tourist shops and attractions and is fun for a day trip.  We usually bought some sandwiches and ate at one of the parks, which are beautifully maintained. The falls itself is quite a ways from the side of the river where you view it.  I mean, you can certainly see it, but you'll not be close enough to feel the drama.  Therefore, it is absolutely worth it to take the Maid of the Mist, the boat that takes you right up to the falls and behind it.  I LOVED it, went right up to the rail on the front of the boat, like a dog with its head out the window on a Sunday drive.  They will give you a rain slicker and make sure you button it up tight or you will be walking around in wet clothes for a few hours afterwards.  It is worth it.  You can always put a dry shirt in the car if you're super prepared.
There is a way to walk down by a minor falls to the side of the Falls, called Bridal Veil falls, which is entered from the American side on Goat Island, if I remember correctly.  I've never been down it myself.
Just pointing out, though, that Niagara Falls is about as far from the Hudson Valley as you can get and still be in New York State.  A good five hour drive, anyway.  Just warning you.


----------



## OldLady

rightwinger said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> 
> After we head to Hudson, we are toying with the idea of seeing Niagra Falls (from the Canadian side).  Anyone been?  Worth the trip?  Do we need a passport if we’re driving?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is around a seven hour drive from NYC. Worth crossing off your bucket list. I think you need a passport but may get by with a drivers license and birth certificate
> 
> While there, you will be able to pay to see the falls from the side above the falls, from the side below the falls, from above, from below on a boat, from inside the falls, from Canada, from the US, at night.....by the time you leave, you are sick of them
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The prevailing plan is to hit Cooperstown for 1-2 days then move on to Niagara.  We’re crossing the freedom bridge then staying at one of the hotels in Canada facing the Horseshoe falls.
> 
> I noticed they put broccoli on their pizza in Canada.  Is that some sort of attempt to be unique?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Cooperstown itself is worth maybe a day, but the area and Finger Lakes region is very scenic
> 
> Doesn't matter what Canadians put on their pizza, it still sucks. NYC pizza is the best...do your pizza pig out there
Click to expand...

Did you ever have Concord grape pie while in the Finger Lakes region?  It's horrid, but it's part of the experience.


----------



## rightwinger

OldLady said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> 
> After we head to Hudson, we are toying with the idea of seeing Niagra Falls (from the Canadian side).  Anyone been?  Worth the trip?  Do we need a passport if we’re driving?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is around a seven hour drive from NYC. Worth crossing off your bucket list. I think you need a passport but may get by with a drivers license and birth certificate
> 
> While there, you will be able to pay to see the falls from the side above the falls, from the side below the falls, from above, from below on a boat, from inside the falls, from Canada, from the US, at night.....by the time you leave, you are sick of them
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The prevailing plan is to hit Cooperstown for 1-2 days then move on to Niagara.  We’re crossing the freedom bridge then staying at one of the hotels in Canada facing the Horseshoe falls.
> 
> I noticed they put broccoli on their pizza in Canada.  Is that some sort of attempt to be unique?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Cooperstown itself is worth maybe a day, but the area and Finger Lakes region is very scenic
> 
> Doesn't matter what Canadians put on their pizza, it still sucks. NYC pizza is the best...do your pizza pig out there
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Did you ever have Concord grape pie while in the Finger Lakes region?  It's horrid, but it's part of the experience.
Click to expand...


No...but I did drink quite a bit of wine


----------



## OldLady

Skull Pilot said:


> you couldn't pay me enough to go to NYC again
> 
> I went once.  it stunk, it was loud and impossible to get any any sleep and the people were all assholes
> 
> so have fun


I'd like to see the 9/11 memorial and eat at Pete Luger, but I hear reservations are nearly impossible to get.


----------



## ChrisL

Skull Pilot said:


> you couldn't pay me enough to go to NYC again
> 
> I went once.  it stunk, it was loud and impossible to get any any sleep and the people were all assholes
> 
> so have fun



Sounds like USMB and you visit here!


----------



## martybegan

candycorn said:


> Need some on-site intel:
> 
> We’ll be heading up the Hudson River Valley and visiting West Point on one of the trips.
> 
> I see that there are multiple roads to take that all seem to wind up in the same area:
> 
> Can anyone compare/contrast the Taconic Parkway, I 87, and State Highway 9?  Looks like 87 and 9 are the ones to take if you’re going to make stops along the way up to Hudson; the other seems to be the “express route”.
> 
> Any stunning insights into NYC we should look at
> 
> Thanks,



The Taconic is more scenic, and also more dangerous, lots of sharp curves. It's also the route to take if you want to be east of the Hudson.

I-87 is the express route west of the Hudson, it also has rest areas if you don't feel like playing "find the bathroom" on the smaller highways.

Some people also use 684 east of the hudson to go north/south, but it ends at 84. 

never really driven 9, but it's probably a really really local road.


----------



## rightwinger

martybegan said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Need some on-site intel:
> 
> We’ll be heading up the Hudson River Valley and visiting West Point on one of the trips.
> 
> I see that there are multiple roads to take that all seem to wind up in the same area:
> 
> Can anyone compare/contrast the Taconic Parkway, I 87, and State Highway 9?  Looks like 87 and 9 are the ones to take if you’re going to make stops along the way up to Hudson; the other seems to be the “express route”.
> 
> Any stunning insights into NYC we should look at
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Taconic is more scenic, and also more dangerous, lots of sharp curves. It's also the route to take if you want to be east of the Hudson.
> 
> I-87 is the express route west of the Hudson, it also has rest areas if you don't feel like playing "find the bathroom" on the smaller highways.
> 
> Some people also use 684 east of the hudson to go north/south, but it ends at 84.
> 
> never really driven 9, but it's probably a really really local road.
Click to expand...


Rte 9 has traffic lights about every mile


----------



## martybegan

rightwinger said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Need some on-site intel:
> 
> We’ll be heading up the Hudson River Valley and visiting West Point on one of the trips.
> 
> I see that there are multiple roads to take that all seem to wind up in the same area:
> 
> Can anyone compare/contrast the Taconic Parkway, I 87, and State Highway 9?  Looks like 87 and 9 are the ones to take if you’re going to make stops along the way up to Hudson; the other seems to be the “express route”.
> 
> Any stunning insights into NYC we should look at
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Taconic is more scenic, and also more dangerous, lots of sharp curves. It's also the route to take if you want to be east of the Hudson.
> 
> I-87 is the express route west of the Hudson, it also has rest areas if you don't feel like playing "find the bathroom" on the smaller highways.
> 
> Some people also use 684 east of the hudson to go north/south, but it ends at 84.
> 
> never really driven 9, but it's probably a really really local road.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Rte 9 has traffic lights about every mile
Click to expand...


Figured as much.


----------



## Skull Pilot

ChrisL said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> you couldn't pay me enough to go to NYC again
> 
> I went once.  it stunk, it was loud and impossible to get any any sleep and the people were all assholes
> 
> so have fun
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like USMB and you visit here!
Click to expand...

I can turn off my computer to shut you people up

Can't do that in the Rotten Apple


----------



## candycorn

On our way to see Waitress!


----------



## candycorn

Our trip to the NE almost didn't happen.  I was in Vegas for a couple of days prior to taking off from Phoenix for Liberty Airport in NJ.  They were supposed to bring just a bare amount of luggage with them so we could check two bags each and then carry on a small bag.  Somehow they thought that meant 4 bags each (their pillows in one suitcase).  So instead of flying from Vegas to PHX, we rented a car that gave us a very close rate to the air fare + baggage penalties on Southwest.  Though I've lived here extensively, I've never had to return a car to the airport rental car area. It's not marked very well and I had to jump a curb to get to the lot.  I was worried about damage to the SUV they gave us in Vegas!!!  Turns out there was no big damage and we made our flight easily. 

Once at EWR, I learned why the rec's and ratings for Advantage Rent-a-Ca were so low.  After standing in line for what seemed like 20 minutes and not moving an inch, I walked over to the Dollar Rent-a-Car counter and got a nice Sonata for approximately the same rate.  Driving through Manhattan wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be once you racheted up your own aggression.  We saw a lot, missed a little, and made numerous invasions into the city.  I found Brooklyn to be amazing.  Good restaurants.  The trip up-state was aborted for my group.  The group we were traveling had plans to stay upstate near West point.  We didn't.  So they went on their way and we made it as far as Scarsdale.  We found a great place to eat in White Plains and came back to the Hotel after the drive through Yonkers, White Plains, and a few other places.


----------



## candycorn

After a few days in NYC, we headed down 95 to the DC area to have dinner with some old friends.  She lives about 1/2 way between Richmond and DC but was kind enough to come up to the Chantilly area to meet us.  After supper, I got up early the next morning to tour the Hazy center of the Smithsonian.  Not to inject politics into it but I wonder how many know that the Smithsonian got $840 Million (at least) in funding from Uncle Sam; about twice what Big Bird got.  Whatever they got, they spent it well with displays too numerous to list here but there was an Air France Concorde, the Enola Gay, a Boeing 707, the Space Shuttle orbiter discovery, the CSM of Gemini 7 (where Lovell and Borman spent 2 weeks in space in a craft the size of a mini van, an F14 Tomcat, a Raptor, and of course the SR71.  To top it off, free admission and simulators on site.  The simulators are hard core…you can almost go totally upside down in them!!!!  

Amazingly, the center also had some vintage aircraft from Japan and Germany and Russia  on hand; highlighting their military prowess  The Germans had this one plane that had a propeller in the front  as well as in the back—facing 180 degrees away from the front one.  Never saw anything like it.  

Later that day, we hit DC and saw the national archives display of the founding documents.  They need to be put on a wall somewhere and re-transcribed so they can be, you know, read.  I know I was looking at history there and what have you but the documents were in such bad shape, they should really be retired as a service to them.  The Archives themselves would be better spent as the focus of the entire trip but I think it was well worth it.


----------



## candycorn

Just to finish the  topic….  

The following morning, we got on the freeway, found a convienent Chik-Fil-A that had eluded us the previous day and took off for Niagara Falls.  We hit Gettysburg.  I will return.  I want to re-read the great novel, _The Killer Angels_ once more before going back.  I could have spent the entire vacation there.  One should always remember what a great service the National Parks are…  After watching the film and viewing the Cyclorama, we made our way to the Turnpike.  SIRI sent us on a route that was at least 50 miles out of the way it turns out.  We could have gone back to Carlisle and made better time to suburban Pittsburgh. What was even worse was that the delay put us in the middle of a hail storm on the Turnpike.  The next day, off we went to Niagara Falls.  The crossing into Canada was fine.  Making it to the Falls was wonderful.  Once there on the Canadian side, it was grotesque.  There are wax museums, casinos, a TGI Fridays, an IHOP, all right there at the Falls.  America does a much better job taking care of it’s natural wonders.  Canada should be admonished for it.  The Hotel (Embassy Suites) that offered us a “falls view” room was a bust; our “view” was standing in front of the window and turning extreme south with your head.  The restaurants were overpriced.  

Flying home wasn’t bad all things considered. We laid over at Midway before catching a late flight home. 



 Great places to visit, but I wouldn’t want to live there….


----------



## rightwinger

candycorn said:


> Just to finish the  topic….
> 
> The following morning, we got on the freeway, found a convienent Chik-Fil-A that had eluded us the previous day and took off for Niagara Falls.  We hit Gettysburg.  I will return.  I want to re-read the great novel, _The Killer Angels_ once more before going back.  I could have spent the entire vacation there.  One should always remember what a great service the National Parks are…  After watching the film and viewing the Cyclorama, we made our way to the Turnpike.  SIRI sent us on a route that was at least 50 miles out of the way it turns out.  We could have gone back to Carlisle and made better time to suburban Pittsburgh. What was even worse was that the delay put us in the middle of a hail storm on the Turnpike.  The next day, off we went to Niagara Falls.  The crossing into Canada was fine.  Making it to the Falls was wonderful.  Once there on the Canadian side, it was grotesque.  There are wax museums, casinos, a TGI Fridays, an IHOP, all right there at the Falls.  America does a much better job taking care of it’s natural wonders.  Canada should be admonished for it.  The Hotel (Embassy Suites) that offered us a “falls view” room was a bust; our “view” was standing in front of the window and turning extreme south with your head.  The restaurants were overpriced.
> 
> Flying home wasn’t bad all things considered. We laid over at Midway before catching a late flight home.
> 
> View attachment 125919 Great places to visit, but I wouldn’t want to live there….



Little Round Top
Nice place to see the battlefield, there was a massacre all around there

What I hated about Niagara Falls was what they charged you to park and the way they nickel and dime you. The city is very tacky. We did eat at a restaurant that was maybe 30-40 feet from the edge of the falls. That was pretty cool


----------



## candycorn

rightwinger said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just to finish the  topic….
> 
> The following morning, we got on the freeway, found a convienent Chik-Fil-A that had eluded us the previous day and took off for Niagara Falls.  We hit Gettysburg.  I will return.  I want to re-read the great novel, _The Killer Angels_ once more before going back.  I could have spent the entire vacation there.  One should always remember what a great service the National Parks are…  After watching the film and viewing the Cyclorama, we made our way to the Turnpike.  SIRI sent us on a route that was at least 50 miles out of the way it turns out.  We could have gone back to Carlisle and made better time to suburban Pittsburgh. What was even worse was that the delay put us in the middle of a hail storm on the Turnpike.  The next day, off we went to Niagara Falls.  The crossing into Canada was fine.  Making it to the Falls was wonderful.  Once there on the Canadian side, it was grotesque.  There are wax museums, casinos, a TGI Fridays, an IHOP, all right there at the Falls.  America does a much better job taking care of it’s natural wonders.  Canada should be admonished for it.  The Hotel (Embassy Suites) that offered us a “falls view” room was a bust; our “view” was standing in front of the window and turning extreme south with your head.  The restaurants were overpriced.
> 
> Flying home wasn’t bad all things considered. We laid over at Midway before catching a late flight home.
> 
> View attachment 125919 Great places to visit, but I wouldn’t want to live there….
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Little Round Top
> Nice place to see the battlefield, there was a massacre all around there
> 
> What I hated about Niagara Falls was what they charged you to park and the way they nickel and dime you. The city is very tacky. We did eat at a restaurant that was maybe 30-40 feet from the edge of the falls. That was pretty cool
Click to expand...


Both of us had soft drinks at the TGI Fridays in the hotel.  $12.00  Tacky is the perfect definition.  The American side looked a lot more “respectful” to the surroundings.


----------



## OldLady

Sorry you didn't like Niagara Falls.  Long ride to be disappointed!  I have been seeing it since I was a preschooler, so to me the "tacky" is part of the charm and I don't even think about it.  It's like an amusement park of a town.


----------

