# Capitalism's Failures in Hong Kong



## georgephillip (Nov 18, 2019)

*What's to blame for escalating protests in Hong Kong, capitalism or Communist China?*





Why it’s wrong to blame Beijing for Hong Kong protests

"Hong Kong’s civil unrest is motivated less by democratic dreams than by a crushing hopelessness in the face of growing inequality
Capitalism’s failures in Hong Kong should be a cautionary tale for the rest of the world..."
"For the past 25 years, Hong Kong has been ranked the freest economy
 in the world and a fine demonstration of capitalism. 

"Prosperity has, however,come at a cost

"Skyrocketing property prices and an ever-widening wealth gap have been two direct consequences. 

"Throw into the mix a lack offsocial mobility as well, and it’s easy for a young Hongkonger to feel that there is no way out.

"There are two reasons I am convinced the protests are not about 
democracy

"First, during the over 150 years of British rule, Hong Kong never enjoyed democracy. 

"This is not to say that people cannot demand what they never had, but when protesters 
repeatedly reminisce about the 'better days' of British rule,
they do not refer to a democratic past, but to a period of relative equality."

*Same old story.

Capitalists and communists throw human rights under the bus whenever the profit motive dictates.*


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## TNHarley (Nov 18, 2019)

Lol yea. The protestors dont know what they are protesting, but you, a known moron, does.
Good gawd I love this site.


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## JGalt (Nov 18, 2019)

georgephillip said:


> *What's to blame for escalating protests in Hong Kong, capitalism or Communist China?*
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The Hong Kong protests have nothing to do with economic reasons, they are political and nationalist, on the part of China.

What is driving Hong Kong-China tensions?

So I take it that you'd have no problem if the US were somehow reverted to being under British rule?


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## georgephillip (Nov 18, 2019)

TNHarley said:


> Lol yea. The protestors dont know what they are protesting, but you, a known moron, does.
> Good gawd I love this site.


*You're too stupid to be on this site*

What is driving Hong Kong-China tensions?

*"What do pro-democracy activists want?*
Hong Kong's pro-democracy activists have been protesting against what they say is China's growing encroachment on the city's freedoms in a breach of the 'one country, two systems' arrangement.

"'I'm not the one to advocate for Hong Kong' independence, but I'm the one who fights for autonomy and against the indifference of China towards Hong Kong. And we were promised to have a high degree of autonomy in the international treaty, which means the joined declaration,' Joshua Wong, student and pro-democracy activist, told Al Jazeera.

"'The 'one country, two systems' in the 20th anniversary seems to be a lie for the Hong Kong people,' he added.

"'I hope to see full democracy in Hong Kong in my life time, but whether Hong Kong can implement, or achieve, democracy, it doesn't depend on me, but it depends on its people and the international community.'"


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## Nostra (Nov 18, 2019)

georgephillip said:


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aljazeera.com?

Pass.....


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## Nostra (Nov 18, 2019)

georgephillip said:


> *What's to blame for escalating protests in Hong Kong, capitalism or Communist China?*
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South China Morning Post?

Pass..............


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## georgephillip (Nov 18, 2019)

JGalt said:


> georgephillip said:
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> > *What's to blame for escalating protests in Hong Kong, capitalism or Communist China?*
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JGalt said:


> The Hong Kong protests have nothing to do with economic reasons, they are political and nationalist, on the part of China.


*Where does the Hong Kong housing crisis fit in to your theory?*

A lack of affordable housing feeds Hong Kong's discontent

"In a global survey released in January by United States research firm Demographia, Hong Kong retained its title as the world's least affordable housing market for a ninth consecutive year. 

"That means the average price for a home is a staggering 20.9 times the annual household income in Hong Kong."

*Even Churchill recognized what happened in a capitalist economy when the pie stops growing:*

Why it’s wrong to blame Beijing for Hong Kong protests

"The bigger enemy, as Winston Churchill put it, is the 'vice of capitalism'. 
"This is, however, not a problem unique to Hong Kong. The protests in Hong Kong should be an alarm bell for the rest of the world: capitalism has failed, at least in Hong Kong.

"A completely free capitalist regime simply does not work once the pie stops growing. Winners will always take all"


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## JGalt (Nov 18, 2019)

georgephillip said:


> TNHarley said:
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> > Lol yea. The protestors dont know what they are protesting, but you, a known moron, does.
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So you shifted from "the failure of capitalism" to Hong Kong's simply wanting autonomy from China in just two posts, using the link I provided? And then repeated the link I provided? And then went back to "the failure of capitalism"?

I seriously doubt they're rioting over "affordable housing."


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## georgephillip (Nov 18, 2019)

JGalt said:


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JGalt said:


> I seriously doubt they're rioting over "affordable housing."


*I seriously doubt you have any idea why the riots are occurring:*

Does Hong Kong have a housing crisis?

*"Hong Kong’s home prices are the world’s highest. Can the city fix it?*

"So how much have prices gone up this year?

"The latest available government statistics from October showed Hong Kong’s private residential property prices had not dropped since March last year.

"Between this January and October, prices spiked by 11 per cent, according to the government’s private domestic price indices, which track overall trends in the property market."




Economic determinism - Wikipedia


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## JGalt (Nov 18, 2019)

georgephillip said:


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Fuck Marxists. They could all end up dying in some jungle like this guy did, and I'd be happy...


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## georgephillip (Nov 18, 2019)

JGalt said:


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JGalt said:


> Fuck Marxists. They could all end up dying in some jungle like this guy did, and I'd be happy...


Is this your idea of a freedom fighter?




Our Debt to Central American Refugees - Democratic Socialists of America (DSA)


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## JGalt (Nov 18, 2019)

georgephillip said:


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Yes it does. I helped train more than several South and Central American military personnel the joys of killing communists with artillery, when I served under him.

Ever see what a 105mm HE round can to do communists?


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## Dont Taz Me Bro (Nov 18, 2019)

georgephillip said:


> *What's to blame for escalating protests in Hong Kong, capitalism or Communist China?*
> Why it’s wrong to blame Beijing for Hong Kong protests
> 
> "Hong Kong’s civil unrest is motivated less by democratic dreams than by a crushing hopelessness in the face of growing inequality
> ...



I'm not even wasting my time on you...... Jesus Christ.....


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## Kilroy2 (Nov 18, 2019)

Well this is another problem created by the UN of which the US is a part of.

The Israel/Palestinian problem

now the Hong Kong problem

have come to a boil

They were removed from the non self governing territories which gave basically gave China the right to reclaim Hong Kong

Obvious it is a thorny issue but so was the US civil war when the South tried to succeed from the Union

The civil rights movement was both nonviolent and violent

The Vietnam protest 

I wonder what would have happen if a foreign country had intervene in what is a civil internal matter 
I would like to see China have a dialogue and see if some agreements can be reached before it becomes bloody but both sides needs to keep it non violent

Ultimately it is a internal civil matter


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## georgephillip (Nov 18, 2019)

Kilroy2 said:


> Well this is another problem created by the UN of which the US is a part of.
> 
> The Israel/Palestinian problem
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Kilroy2 said:


> I wonder what would have happen if a foreign country had intervene in what is a civil internal matter
> I would like to see China have a dialogue and see if some agreements can be reached before it becomes bloody but both sides needs to keep it non violent
> 
> Ultimately it is a internal civil matter


*Aspects of Democracy like universal suffrage seem to be at the heart of this dispute?*

Democratic development in Hong Kong - Wikipedia

"Other democracy-related issues involving human rights and universal suffrage (in this case the right to elect Hong Kong leaders through general elections under universal suffrage with no curtailment from the central government of China) became the new focal point for the pro-democracy camp. 

"Ever since the 1950s, the Chinese government has continually threatened the British over any attempts to bring about democratic development in Hong Kong. 

"Attempts to bring Hong Kong citizens to the negotiating table by the British during the Sino-Anglo discussions were rejected by Beijing in the late 1980s. 

"The last governor Chris Patten faced a great deal of opposition in changing the former colony's political system."

*HK protesters frequently wave UK and US flags during demonstrations, but ongoing trade negotiations make it unlikely any western state will take sides.*


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## Kilroy2 (Nov 18, 2019)

China even though it is a communist political system has embraced private ownership

Under Mao it was a disaster

The new regime has kept some things that are communist in nature but has open up free enterprise as their is now private ownership in a communist country

People seems to be free to leave the country

Yes politically they silence opposition, have an authoritarian leader, and free speech is anemic

So Honk Kong seems to like its free speech and does not want to give that up

Yet in the US we have free speech 

Certainly we can say anything within reason but that has lead to lies and misinformation that can be spoken with impunity

and people will believe it because it supports their world view

Truth is fake news depending on what float your on 

Fake news is truth

Free speech, you just gotta love it


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## georgephillip (Nov 19, 2019)

Kilroy2 said:


> China even though it is a communist political system has embraced private ownership
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> Under Mao it was a disaster
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*Many Hong Kong protesters are looking ahead 28 years to 2047; that's when their "borrowed time" relationship with China is slated to end. 

The "one country, two systems" formula arranged between Beijing and London that allows Hong Kong to function somewhat independently of China will end, and many in Hong Kong fear the worst, possibly with good reasons since the Communist Party on the mainland (fueled by capitalism) controls many aspects of society, including the media and courts.*

Hong Kong campus siege almost over, but the violence and anger is here to stay - CNN




"Hanging over the escalating unrest is the potential threat of military intervention. 

"On Saturday, soldiers from one of Hong Kong's People's Liberation Army (PLA) barracks were seen helping local residents clean up surrounding streets.

"The presence of the troops on the streets, despite being unarmed and wearing workout gear -- unnerved many Hong Kong residents and pro-democracy legislators, even as it was cheered by pro-Beijing newspapers and on Chinese social media.

"Analysts agree that a military intervention could severely damage Hong Kong's economy and might spark an exodus from the city. 

"Speaking Tuesday, Lam said it was 'not uncommon' for PLA troops to engage in voluntary activities."


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## Kilroy2 (Nov 19, 2019)

So the question  is

Is it really that different from what it is now 

The HK government seems to be close to the mainland China government and cooperate with it

Sure there appears to be some autonomy but is it real or an illusion

You are probably right that those in HK know that times is running out and if they want their own country, best to do it before the deadline

But it would be interesting to get numbers of those who really fear the mainland taking over vs those who just accept that it is inevitable

Civil war is not pretty and I cannot  see how they can win (HK who want independence) unless the UN goes to bat for them and try to pressure the mainland into granting them independence or striking up a new timeline for the inevitable


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## georgephillip (Nov 20, 2019)

Kilroy2 said:


> So the question  is
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> Is it really that different from what it is now
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Kilroy2 said:


> Civil war is not pretty and I cannot see how they can win (HK who want independence) unless the UN goes to bat for them and try to pressure the mainland into granting them independence or striking up a new timeline for the inevitable


*I don't think any agent on the planet can interfere with China's intentions towards Hong Kong. Imho, China is the state capitalism was created for, and the Chinese believe the 21st century belongs to them.*

In Warning to Hong Kong’s Courts, China Shows Who Is Boss

"BEIJING — After months of relative restraint, China’s Communist government this week took its most decisive steps to intervene in Hong Kong’s political crisis, signaling a more forceful response that could further inflame tensions in the Chinese territory.

"China’s top legislative body, the National People’s Congress, warned that it would use its authority, if necessary, to overrule the territory’s judiciary. 

"It followed a Hong Kong court’s ruling on Monday overturning a contentious ban on wearing face masks, which protesters have used to shield their identities from the police."


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## okfine (Nov 25, 2019)

georgephillip said:


> *What's to blame for escalating protests in Hong Kong, capitalism or Communist China?*
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Have you read Foreign Policy lately?

"As an individual, Trump has always been an unreliable peg for China hawks to hang their hopes on. He has absolutely zero interest in human rights and free speech. His own instincts are authoritarian, as he has repeatedly shown through his support for torture, pardons of war criminals, and attacks on the press. He is barely even able to pretend that he cares; he goes after China out of protectionist instincts, not political principle."

Donald Trump’s America Can’t Fight Xi Jinping’s China


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## CrusaderFrank (Nov 25, 2019)

georgephillip said:


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ChiCom bots are out in full force to defend their motherland and Communism


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## CrusaderFrank (Nov 25, 2019)

georgephillip said:


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ChiCom bot wants to tell us that the Hong Kong protests are not about liberty,  freedom,  nationalism and self determination but rather they want a Progressive economy like Cuba or Venezuela.


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## CrusaderFrank (Nov 25, 2019)

okfine said:


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In under one term Trump has pressured your ChiCom Masters like none of the past 3 Presidents ever did. He knows EXACTLY what he's doing! He's pressuring your ChiCom Masters to stop stealing all our IP


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## CrusaderFrank (Nov 25, 2019)

georgephillip said:


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ChiCom bots LOVE when an all powerful Progressive government gets to crush its unarmed citizens. I bet the video Maduro's APC running down those unarmed protesters was your preferred porn


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## okfine (Nov 25, 2019)

CrusaderFrank said:


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Has he produced results?

Ever see the TV commercial where the young lady talks about the smell around her, and then says it was her own bad breath?


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## CrusaderFrank (Nov 25, 2019)

okfine said:


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The Hong Kong protests ARE the results of Trump ramping up the pressure on the ChiComs


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## georgephillip (Nov 25, 2019)

CrusaderFrank said:


> georgephillip said:
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CrusaderFrank said:


> ChiCom bots are out in full force to defend their motherland and Communism


*Where's the capitalist Pussy Grabber?*




Why Hong Kong protesters wave US and British flags

"Another US flag-waver, who refused to give his name, said he wanted the American government to pass the proposed Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy Act.

"The legislation was first introduced in 2016 and then reintroduced earlier this year after the first protests against the extradition bill began in the city. 

"While the bill is not likely to be passed in the short term, should it become law, it would require the US government to conduct an annual assessment of Hong Kong’s autonomy – something the city’s 
Basic Law
 and 'one country, two systems' model is supposed to protect."

*How much money is the Trump Crime Family making in China?
Too much to support democracy in Hong Kong.*


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## JGalt (Nov 25, 2019)

georgephillip said:


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Why don't you go support them, so we we can watch when you get tear-gassed?

I haven't had a good laugh yet today.


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## georgephillip (Nov 25, 2019)

"Seventeen of the 18 district councils are now controlled by pro-democracy councillors, according to local media.

"The election, the first since the wave of anti-Beijing protests began, saw an unprecedented turnout of more than 71%.

"It is being seen as a stinging rebuke of Ms Lam's leadership and a show of support for the protest movement."

HK leader will 'reflect' after election rout

*Will Trump stay silent or support democracy in Hong Kong?*


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## georgephillip (Nov 25, 2019)

JGalt said:


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JGalt said:


> Why don't you go support them, so we we can watch when you get tear-gassed?
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> I haven't had a good laugh yet today.


You need a good laugh?




Glad I could help.


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## CrusaderFrank (Nov 25, 2019)

georgephillip said:


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Maybe you can rewatch Maduro's APC running over unarmed protesters?


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## georgephillip (Nov 25, 2019)

CrusaderFrank said:


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CrusaderFrank said:


> Maybe you can rewatch Maduro's APC running over unarmed protesters?


Heroes in Action


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## CrusaderFrank (Nov 25, 2019)

georgephillip said:


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Progressive heroes in action


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## georgephillip (Nov 25, 2019)

CrusaderFrank said:


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_*"Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun*_ (Chinese:  pinyin: _Qiānggǎn zi lǐmiàn chū zhèngquán_) is a phrase which was coined by Chinese communist leader Mao Zedong. The phrase was originally used by Mao during an emergency meeting of the Communist Party of China on 7 August 1927, at the beginning of the Chinese Civil War.[1] Mao employed the phrase a second time on 6 November 1938, during his concluding speech at the sixth Plenary Session of the CPC's sixth Central Committee; again, the speech was concerned with the Civil War, and now also with World War II"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_power_grows_out_of_the_barrel_of_a_g




Debate over the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki - Wikipedia


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