# Writing Process



## Dhara

I've decided to channel most of my interest in writing to journaling instead of posting on forums.

I thought I'd start a thread for writers and we could encourage each other.


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## IsaacNewton

Read. All writers should read everything in sight. You assimilate the way various people construct something. You also see what doesn't work, very important.


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## MisterBeale

IsaacNewton said:


> Read. All writers should read everything in sight. You assimilate the way various people construct something. You also see what doesn't work, very important.


Believe it or not, one of America's greatest author's disagrees with you.  He felt that the more you read, the more you cloud your own voice and muddled your own thoughts.   IOW, it messed with your originality.

Other than history and biography, he rarely read.  Interesting but true.

Mark Twain quotations - Reading


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## koshergrl

Dhara said:


> I've decided to channel most of my interest in writing to journaling instead of posting on forums.
> 
> I thought I'd start a thread for writers and we could encourage each other.


Oh lord, not this again.

There's already an entire forum set aside for bad writers to write badly in, where they are forced to treat each other as if their writing is coherent and worthwhile.


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## Dhara

IsaacNewton said:


> Read. All writers should read everything in sight. You assimilate the way various people construct something. You also see what doesn't work, very important.


I'm a voracious reader.


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## koshergrl

MisterBeale said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Read. All writers should read everything in sight. You assimilate the way various people construct something. You also see what doesn't work, very important.
> 
> 
> 
> Believe it or not, one of America's greatest author's disagrees with you.  He felt that the more you read, the more you cloud your own voice and muddled your own thoughts.   IOW, it messed with your originality.
> 
> Other than history and biography, he rarely read.  Interesting but true.
> 
> Mark Twain quotations - Reading
Click to expand...

 Maybe he was being funny!

Mark Twain was wicked that way lolol.


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## Dhara

koshergrl said:


> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've decided to channel most of my interest in writing to journaling instead of posting on forums.
> 
> I thought I'd start a thread for writers and we could encourage each other.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh lord, not this again.
> 
> There's already an entire forum set aside for bad writers to write badly in, where they are forced to treat each other as if their writing is coherent and worthwhile.
Click to expand...

Hey, you don't like the topic, post elsewhere.


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## koshergrl

IsaacNewton said:


> Read. All writers should read everything in sight. You assimilate the way various people construct something. You also see what doesn't work, very important.


 Actually..writers should spend their time WRITING. Otherwise, they aren't writers, they're READERS. There's a difference.

I've been writing like crazy lately woo hoo. Working on two newsletters..one is mine, the other is work.


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## koshergrl

Dhara said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've decided to channel most of my interest in writing to journaling instead of posting on forums.
> 
> I thought I'd start a thread for writers and we could encourage each other.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh lord, not this again.
> 
> There's already an entire forum set aside for bad writers to write badly in, where they are forced to treat each other as if their writing is coherent and worthwhile.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hey, you don't like the topic, post elsewhere.
Click to expand...

 I can not like the topic, AND post. See how that works?


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## Dhara

koshergrl said:


> Dhara said:
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> koshergrl said:
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> 
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> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've decided to channel most of my interest in writing to journaling instead of posting on forums.
> 
> I thought I'd start a thread for writers and we could encourage each other.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh lord, not this again.
> 
> There's already an entire forum set aside for bad writers to write badly in, where they are forced to treat each other as if their writing is coherent and worthwhile.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hey, you don't like the topic, post elsewhere.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I can not like the topic, AND post. See how that works?
Click to expand...

Get lost.


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## IsaacNewton

MisterBeale said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Read. All writers should read everything in sight. You assimilate the way various people construct something. You also see what doesn't work, very important.
> 
> 
> 
> Believe it or not, one of America's greatest author's disagrees with you.  He felt that the more you read, the more you cloud your own voice and muddled your own thoughts.   IOW, it messed with your originality.
> 
> Other than history and biography, he rarely read.  Interesting but true.
> 
> Mark Twain quotations - Reading
Click to expand...


Hard to disagree with Mark Twain but I disagree with Mark Twain. It is hard to believe he didn't read anything in his life. 

Great film makers watch movies, painters don't only look at blank canvases, musicians emulate those they like. 

For all artists you start standing on the shoulders of those that came before, then you find your own voice or let it take the lead, then you get moving on your own. 

Spielberg says many times when he is in the process of making a movie he will go home and watch movies to get ideas for a scene. Johnny Depp watched many old pirate movies, looked at various people for character traits, then he created the character Jack Sparrow in his own voice. The actors around him were confused by the way he chose to portray that character. But watching the movies you think, how else could it have been done?

There does comes a time when your own voice becomes the only one you listen to, no matter what anyone else says. And of course if ignoring all the world works for you then by all means go that route. It is definitely an individual thing and no two people will have the same process.


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## koshergrl

IsaacNewton said:


> MisterBeale said:
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> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Read. All writers should read everything in sight. You assimilate the way various people construct something. You also see what doesn't work, very important.
> 
> 
> 
> Believe it or not, one of America's greatest author's disagrees with you.  He felt that the more you read, the more you cloud your own voice and muddled your own thoughts.   IOW, it messed with your originality.
> 
> Other than history and biography, he rarely read.  Interesting but true.
> 
> Mark Twain quotations - Reading
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hard to disagree with Mark Twain but I disagree with Mark Twain. It is hard to believe he didn't read anything in his life.
> 
> Great film makers watch movies, painters don't only look at blank canvases, musicians emulate those they like.
> 
> For all artists you start standing on the shoulders of those that came before, then you find your own voice or let it take the lead, then you get moving on your own.
> 
> Spielberg says many times when he is in the process of making a movie he will go home and watch movies to get ideas for a scene. Johnny Depp watched many old pirate movies, looked at various people for character traits, then he created the character Jack Sparrow in his own voice. The actors around him were confused by the way he chose to portray that character. But watching the movies you think, how else could it have been done?
> 
> There does comes a time when your own voice becomes the only one you listen to, no matter what anyone else says. And of course if ignoring all the world works for you then by all means go that route. It is definitely an individual thing and no two people will have the same process.
Click to expand...

 
He didn't say he didn't read anything. He said he read history and biography. There is a lot of material that is covered by that.


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## koshergrl

All the reading in the world isn't going to help you if you don't understand the words that are written.

And that, in turn, will prevent you from being a good writer.


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## Dhara

Writing alot makes a difference.  Meeting up with other writers and having writing dates is fun.  Taking writing classes have always been inspiring for me.  What works for you?


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## Dhara

koshergrl said:


> All the reading in the world isn't going to help you if you don't understand the words that are written.
> 
> And that, in turn, will prevent you from being a good writer.


What newsletters do you write?  Church?  Job?


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## Dhara

I like this site:

https://killzoneblog.com/


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## MisterBeale

koshergrl said:


> All the reading in the world isn't going to help you if you don't understand the words that are written.
> 
> And that, in turn, will prevent you from being a good writer.


Agreed.

What IsaacNewton was describing was how Hollywood types and 5th Ave. regurgitate pop culture and what intellectuals do to create art.  Is it any wonder the same swill we are consuming is little different than what we consumed in the 1970's?

I think there is a substantive difference between pop culture and high art.

Oh irony of ironies. . .


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## IsaacNewton

Dhara said:


> Writing alot makes a difference.  Meeting up with other writers and having writing dates is fun.  Taking writing classes have always been inspiring for me.  What works for you?



Yes writing alot of course. If you want to write, then you write. 

Some writers prefer a blank page and then they begin without any preconceived ideas. I can't do that. I have the general story already figured out and then have to set about filling in the story and that part is more stream of consciousness. Characters I find grow naturally out of the story line. If you are a sub captain in the navy then the story is going to be populated with the other people on the sub, the captain's family, and his superior officers. Likely people of an opposing military. 

If the story is set in a prison, like Shawshank Redemption, then it will have other inmaters, guards, the Warden, lawyers, as characters. And consider that story for a moment. It is merely a retelling of a jail break story we've seen a thousand times. The big twist is the escape tunnel behind the poster on the wall. The original short story by Stephen King is titled Rita Hayworth and The Shawshank Redemption. 

A story usually follows an arc. The main character is faced with an obstacle and the story follows him/her through all the hurdles to get over the obstacle, and the main character is tranformed into something new at the end. Usually in some way he/she had not forseen. Other characters may also be transformed, or they may be transformed in an opposite direction. Harvey Dent goes from being a squeaky clean almost better than Batman crime fighter to a vile new villlain at the end. But it is an arc.


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## IsaacNewton

Dhara, Beale suffers in misery and like most who do is vomiting on your thread. If you want to start a new one I'll be glad to join in. This site lends itself to the angries of the world. It likely isn't the best site to discuss writing.


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## Dhara

I've never completed a story.  I've started a number of them but haven't brought them to completion.


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## IsaacNewton

Dhara said:


> I've never completed a story.  I've started a number of them but haven't brought them to completion.



You should write a VERY short story. One or two pages. But make it a whole story and don't worry about it being 'good'. Just have a beginning, a middle, and an end. Classic three act story. Everything is riding a bike.


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## Dhara

IsaacNewton said:


> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've never completed a story.  I've started a number of them but haven't brought them to completion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You should write a VERY short story. One or two pages. But make it a whole story and don't worry about it being 'good'. Just have a beinning, a middle, and an end. Classic three act story. Everything is riding a bike.
Click to expand...

That's a really good idea.


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## koshergrl

Dhara said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> All the reading in the world isn't going to help you if you don't understand the words that are written.
> 
> And that, in turn, will prevent you from being a good writer.
> 
> 
> 
> What newsletters do you write?  Church?  Job?
Click to expand...

 Job.


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## Dhara

koshergrl said:


> Dhara said:
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> koshergrl said:
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> All the reading in the world isn't going to help you if you don't understand the words that are written.
> 
> And that, in turn, will prevent you from being a good writer.
> 
> 
> 
> What newsletters do you write?  Church?  Job?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Job.
Click to expand...

OK.  

Any other creative writing?  Poems?  Stories?  Essays?


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## IsaacNewton

The killzoneblog is a cool site, I read through the critique of the work in progress and the insights were good. Search the net for the top writing sites. Everyone has their favorites and you'll find your own. 

For myself I would say concentrate on story. A writer is merely a story teller who puts the story down in printed words. A director is a story teller that does it in images. A song-writer is a story teller that does it both in written word and using the emotion that can be put into the sound of singing words. 

But the story is the thing. I've come to writing fairly recently and over the last ten years or so I've deconstructed what a story is, or what a movie is. It is a whole, broken down into three chunks (generally, the classic form is the 3 act story, though it CAN be radically different), those are then broken down into scenes. Each genre has its own form. You'll need to learn the various forms of novels, novellas, short stories, poems, movies, movie shorts, etc if you want to foray into any of those. And you can change them in some ways if you feel like it and the changes resonate with others. 

But, the story is the thing. Forget the form. Come up with a good story, with drama and twists, and a great ending. You can fit any story into any form, usually but not always. 

What are the great stories? What makes them great? Jaws, Alien, and The Creature from the Black Lagoon are the same story. Fight and defeat the horrible monster. But look at how differently that story is told and what twists are added to each. Chest burster, exploding tank. The story teller has to come up with all that stuff.


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## IsaacNewton

Dhara said:


> koshergrl said:
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> Dhara said:
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> koshergrl said:
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> All the reading in the world isn't going to help you if you don't understand the words that are written.
> 
> And that, in turn, will prevent you from being a good writer.
> 
> 
> 
> What newsletters do you write?  Church?  Job?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Job.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> OK.
> 
> Any other creative writing?  Poems?  Stories?  Essays?
Click to expand...


By the way I'd recommend reading The Waste Land and the Norton book that deciphers it. You'll get an idea how the more knowledge you have the better you can write and the larger your story will be.

It's hard to recommend writing sites. Some are great, others are eh. You have to find your own niche. 

50 of the Best Websites for Writers

Writers Guild of America, West


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## longknife

koshergrl said:


> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've decided to channel most of my interest in writing to journaling instead of posting on forums.
> 
> I thought I'd start a thread for writers and we could encourage each other.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh lord, not this again.
> 
> There's already an entire forum set aside for bad writers to write badly in, where they are forced to treat each other as if their writing is coherent and worthwhile.
Click to expand...


Then do us all a favor and don't participate in this one.


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## koshergrl

longknife said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've decided to channel most of my interest in writing to journaling instead of posting on forums.
> 
> I thought I'd start a thread for writers and we could encourage each other.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh lord, not this again.
> 
> There's already an entire forum set aside for bad writers to write badly in, where they are forced to treat each other as if their writing is coherent and worthwhile.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then do us all a favor and don't participate in this one.
Click to expand...

 All you do is make me want to stay.


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## Moonglow

Dhara said:


> I've decided to channel most of my interest in writing to journaling instead of posting on forums.
> 
> I thought I'd start a thread for writers and we could encourage each other.


     Then why no indentation...?


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## longknife

IsaacNewton said:


> Dhara said:
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> koshergrl said:
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> Dhara said:
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> koshergrl said:
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> All the reading in the world isn't going to help you if you don't understand the words that are written.
> 
> And that, in turn, will prevent you from being a good writer.
> 
> 
> 
> What newsletters do you write?  Church?  Job?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Job.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> OK.
> 
> Any other creative writing?  Poems?  Stories?  Essays?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> By the way I'd recommend reading The Waste Land and the Norton book that deciphers it. You'll get an idea how the more knowledge you have the better you can write and the larger your story will be.
> 
> It's hard to recommend writing sites. Some are great, others are eh. You have to find your own niche.
> 
> 50 of the Best Websites for Writers
> 
> Writers Guild of America, West
Click to expand...



Thanks for the links.

Here are two excellent sites for writers:

Absolute Write Water Cooler @ Activity Stream - Absolute Write Water Cooler that has an excellent collection of tips on just about every writing subject.

Writers Helping Writers @ WRITERS HELPING WRITERS™ - Home of The Bookshelf Muse with a plethora of thesaursus' on just about anything you can image to help finding descriptions.



Me @ Amazon.com


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## Dhara

longknife said:


> IsaacNewton said:
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> Dhara said:
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> koshergrl said:
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> Dhara said:
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> koshergrl said:
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> All the reading in the world isn't going to help you if you don't understand the words that are written.
> 
> And that, in turn, will prevent you from being a good writer.
> 
> 
> 
> What newsletters do you write?  Church?  Job?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Job.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> OK.
> 
> Any other creative writing?  Poems?  Stories?  Essays?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> By the way I'd recommend reading The Waste Land and the Norton book that deciphers it. You'll get an idea how the more knowledge you have the better you can write and the larger your story will be.
> 
> It's hard to recommend writing sites. Some are great, others are eh. You have to find your own niche.
> 
> 50 of the Best Websites for Writers
> 
> Writers Guild of America, West
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the links.
> 
> Here are two excellent sites for writers:
> 
> Absolute Write Water Cooler @ Activity Stream - Absolute Write Water Cooler that has an excellent collection of tips on just about every writing subject.
> 
> Writers Helping Writers @ WRITERS HELPING WRITERS™ - Home of The Bookshelf Muse with a plethora of thesaursus' on just about anything you can image to help finding descriptions.
> 
> 
> 
> Me @ Amazon.com
Click to expand...

Very cool.


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## IsaacNewton

longknife said:


> IsaacNewton said:
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> Dhara said:
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> koshergrl said:
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> Dhara said:
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> koshergrl said:
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> All the reading in the world isn't going to help you if you don't understand the words that are written.
> 
> And that, in turn, will prevent you from being a good writer.
> 
> 
> 
> What newsletters do you write?  Church?  Job?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Job.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> OK.
> 
> Any other creative writing?  Poems?  Stories?  Essays?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> By the way I'd recommend reading The Waste Land and the Norton book that deciphers it. You'll get an idea how the more knowledge you have the better you can write and the larger your story will be.
> 
> It's hard to recommend writing sites. Some are great, others are eh. You have to find your own niche.
> 
> 50 of the Best Websites for Writers
> 
> Writers Guild of America, West
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the links.
> 
> Here are two excellent sites for writers:
> 
> Absolute Write Water Cooler @ Activity Stream - Absolute Write Water Cooler that has an excellent collection of tips on just about every writing subject.
> 
> Writers Helping Writers @ WRITERS HELPING WRITERS™ - Home of The Bookshelf Muse with a plethora of thesaursus' on just about anything you can image to help finding descriptions.
> 
> 
> 
> Me @ Amazon.com
Click to expand...


Bookmarked.

Very good info at both. Research on various subjects for a story is critical, both for characters and for the reality of things like the science, medical, and emotional aspects of things in the story. Some writers spent 5+ years just researching the fields they didn't know about that were in their story, before writing the book or screenplay.

And it's important to learn 'the business' you are in. Agents, publishing houses, movie studios. They all have their particular rules for submitting works.


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## IsaacNewton

By the way Dhara that was alot of info in a short span. If you aren't to the point of submissions or even writing to publish, I'd still say 'story'. 

Unless you are only writing in a journal as you mentioned, for your own reading. Then story won't matter obviously.


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## xband

Dhara said:


> I've decided to channel most of my interest in writing to journaling instead of posting on forums.
> 
> I thought I'd start a thread for writers and we could encourage each other.



I am an excellent writer but have trouble with punctuation"


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## MisterBeale

IsaacNewton said:


> Dhara, Beale suffers in misery and like most who do is vomiting on your thread. If you want to start a new one I'll be glad to join in. This site lends itself to the angries of the world. It likely isn't the best site to discuss writing.



You're right, I do suffer, and suffer mightily.  If you knew me better you would know that cause, but with out knowing the details, you are launching a low brow ad hominem attack when someone dares to offer an alternative view point to your deeply held belief.  Open your mind to the possibility that there might be more than one way to do things.

Do you honestly think Steinbeck, Hemingway, Faulkner or Fitzgerald did all the stuff you are going on about?  Seriously?

I can tell you that wasn't Thoreau's method.  

Although, I am not "vomiting," I am simply offering a different POV, which, without more info, it might have been premature.



Dhara said:


> I've decided to channel most of my interest in writing to journaling instead of posting on forums.
> 
> I thought I'd start a thread for writers and we could encourage each other.



What is your end goal through your writing?  With out knowing this, I can not really intelligently comment on what you hope to achieve.

I think both Sir Newton and I can agree, the first thing you need to identify is your audience, go from there.


Do you wish to just write for pleasure?

Do you want to write for posterity?  Do you hope to create high art and literature? 

Or are all of these things, in the end, secondary goals, while is writing for profit the primary motive?


See, I posted to soon.  With out knowing why you are writing, I cannot really intelligently comment on your writing thread.


Some would say it makes no difference, but it makes all the difference in the world.



I am always on my son's case about reading pop fiction versus reading literature.   Seems today, folks love to gobble that shit up.



They love to write it as well.  If your end goal is to write pop fiction and pulp, listen to everything Sir Newton has said, it is right on the money, and it will help you make a mint.    The world always needs more Harlequin writers.


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## koshergrl

MisterBeale said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dhara, Beale suffers in misery and like most who do is vomiting on your thread. If you want to start a new one I'll be glad to join in. This site lends itself to the angries of the world. It likely isn't the best site to discuss writing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're right, I do suffer, and suffer mightily.  If you knew me better you would know that cause, but with out knowing the details, you are launching a low brow ad hominem attack when someone dares to offer an alternative view point to your deeply held belief.  Open your mind to the possibility that there might be more than one way to do things.
> 
> Do you honestly think Steinbeck, Hemingway, Faulkner or Fitzgerald did all the stuff you are going on about?  Seriously?
> 
> I can tell you that wasn't Thoreau's method.
> 
> Although, I am not "vomiting," I am simply offering a different POV, which, without more info, it might have been premature.
> 
> 
> 
> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've decided to channel most of my interest in writing to journaling instead of posting on forums.
> 
> I thought I'd start a thread for writers and we could encourage each other.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What is your end goal through your writing?  With out knowing this, I can not really intelligently comment on what you hope to achieve.
> 
> I think both Sir Newton and I can agree, the first thing you need to identify is your audience, go from there.
> 
> 
> Do you wish to just write for pleasure?
> 
> Do you want to write for posterity?  Do you hope to create high art and literature?
> 
> Or are all of these things, in the end, secondary goals, while is writing for profit the primary motive?
> 
> 
> See, I posted to soon.  With out knowing why you are writing, I cannot really intelligently comment on your writing thread.
> 
> 
> Some would say it makes no difference, but it makes all the difference in the world.
> 
> 
> 
> I am always on my son's case about reading pop fiction versus reading literature.   Seems today, folks love to gobble that shit up.
> 
> 
> 
> They love to write it as well.  If your end goal is to write pop fiction and pulp, listen to everything Sir Newton has said, it is right on the money, and it will help you make a mint.    The world always needs more Harlequin writers.
Click to expand...

 
Isaac is an anal retentive totalitarian douche bag..don't expect great Art from him, or a realistic approach to the creation of Art. The fact of the matter is..you either have the gift, or you don't. People who are gifted writers, who people love to read, do not usually enforce upon themselves the masochistic regime that he has suggested..and crappy writers are going to be crappy writers even when they do.

The internet has created thousands, maybe even millions, of generic sub-standard fluff generators who churn out huge piles of garbage and think that makes them skilled writers.

It isn't the quanitity of your work that makes it special. It isn't the form, or the subject matter, or the diligence with which you edit. Your work has to be special to begin with, and to accomplish that you must have a certain knack for speaking and reaching people.

Trust me, no progressive has that knack. Progressives are death to Art. They squash the creativity of others, and they have no intrinsic creativity themselves. They substitute artistic endeavor and literature with forced servitude and propaganda.


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## MisterBeale

koshergrl said:


> MisterBeale said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dhara, Beale suffers in misery and like most who do is vomiting on your thread. If you want to start a new one I'll be glad to join in. This site lends itself to the angries of the world. It likely isn't the best site to discuss writing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're right, I do suffer, and suffer mightily.  If you knew me better you would know that cause, but with out knowing the details, you are launching a low brow ad hominem attack when someone dares to offer an alternative view point to your deeply held belief.  Open your mind to the possibility that there might be more than one way to do things.
> 
> Do you honestly think Steinbeck, Hemingway, Faulkner or Fitzgerald did all the stuff you are going on about?  Seriously?
> 
> I can tell you that wasn't Thoreau's method.
> 
> Although, I am not "vomiting," I am simply offering a different POV, which, without more info, it might have been premature.
> 
> 
> 
> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've decided to channel most of my interest in writing to journaling instead of posting on forums.
> 
> I thought I'd start a thread for writers and we could encourage each other.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What is your end goal through your writing?  With out knowing this, I can not really intelligently comment on what you hope to achieve.
> 
> I think both Sir Newton and I can agree, the first thing you need to identify is your audience, go from there.
> 
> 
> Do you wish to just write for pleasure?
> 
> Do you want to write for posterity?  Do you hope to create high art and literature?
> 
> Or are all of these things, in the end, secondary goals, while is writing for profit the primary motive?
> 
> 
> See, I posted to soon.  With out knowing why you are writing, I cannot really intelligently comment on your writing thread.
> 
> 
> Some would say it makes no difference, but it makes all the difference in the world.
> 
> 
> 
> I am always on my son's case about reading pop fiction versus reading literature.   Seems today, folks love to gobble that shit up.
> 
> 
> 
> They love to write it as well.  If your end goal is to write pop fiction and pulp, listen to everything Sir Newton has said, it is right on the money, and it will help you make a mint.    The world always needs more Harlequin writers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Isaac is an anal retentive totalitarian douche bag..don't expect great Art from him, or a realistic approach to the creation of Art. The fact of the matter is..you either have the gift, or you don't. People who are gifted writers, who people love to read, do not usually enforce upon themselves the masochistic regime that he has suggested..and crappy writers are going to be crappy writers even when they do.
> 
> The internet has created thousands, maybe even millions, of generic sub-standard fluff generators who churn out huge piles of garbage and think that makes them skilled writers.
> 
> It isn't the quanitity of your work that makes it special. It isn't the form, or the subject matter, or the diligence with which you edit. Your work has to be special to begin with, and to accomplish that you must have a certain knack for speaking and reaching people.
> 
> Trust me, no progressive has that knack. Progressives are death to Art. They squash the creativity of others, and they have no intrinsic creativity themselves. They substitute artistic endeavor and literature with forced servitude and propaganda.
Click to expand...



Well, I do agree to a certain extent with you, but I think the gift can be nurtured as well.

But the way you nurture that gift is NOT AT ALL in the way that Sir Newton as been intimating.  The way you nurture that gift is the way that Twain and Thoreau have taught us.

I don't know if Dhara is familiar with the likes of Poe, Kerouac, Thompson, Hemingway, or Woolf.  The things these folks have in common are their tortured souls, it's their insanity.   From the edge of sanity comes true art and creativity. 

It's experience, and it's the authentic life one leads that makes a writer.  Writers go out and live.  They don't get it by imitation.


When I had lunch with Vonnegut and Adams, that was the one similarity that I took away from both of those meetings.  It wasn't that they both focused on writing everyday.  Sure, writers know that you should sit down and attempt to write something interesting and thought provoking everyday.  That's like an athlete practicing. 

But you want to know what is far far more important?  It the existential experience of living.  It's your voice.  That is where the meat and bread of a writer's existence comes from.  Real writers are out in the mountains and the woods.  They are sailing, learning to do new things and experiencing life.

It is far more important for you to affect the world, and for the world to affect you, in order for your gift to be honed and sharpened into something that can be useful for the day when you sit down at the computer and decide it is time to compose.

For like you say, with out the passion, the creativity and a little bit of inborn insanity, the person desiring to be a writer will be nothing more than a hack.


----------



## longknife

If you are ever going to be successful as a writer - you have to approach it as a JOB. It requires dedication, gathering information, learning new things, set a schedule and adhere to it, and build a thick skin.

And, most important of all, if you can't properly tell the story, no one will read or listen to you.


----------



## koshergrl

longknife said:


> If you are ever going to be successful as a writer - you have to approach it as a JOB. It requires dedication, gathering information, learning new things, set a schedule and adhere to it, and build a thick skin.
> 
> And, most important of all, if you can't properly tell the story, no one will read or listen to you.


 Thank you, I will alert the media to let them know, because nobody knew this already.


----------



## koshergrl

The most important thing is to smoke opium or to abuse other drugs.

25 Great Writers Who Battled Drug Addiction and Alcoholism


----------



## IsaacNewton

MisterBeale said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dhara, Beale suffers in misery and like most who do is vomiting on your thread. If you want to start a new one I'll be glad to join in. This site lends itself to the angries of the world. It likely isn't the best site to discuss writing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're right, I do suffer, and suffer mightily.  If you knew me better you would know that cause, but with out knowing the details, you are launching a low brow ad hominem attack when someone dares to offer an alternative view point to your deeply held belief.  Open your mind to the possibility that there might be more than one way to do things.
> 
> Do you honestly think Steinbeck, Hemingway, Faulkner or Fitzgerald did all the stuff you are going on about?  Seriously?
> 
> I can tell you that wasn't Thoreau's method.
> 
> Although, I am not "vomiting," I am simply offering a different POV, which, without more info, it might have been premature.
> 
> 
> 
> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've decided to channel most of my interest in writing to journaling instead of posting on forums.
> 
> I thought I'd start a thread for writers and we could encourage each other.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What is your end goal through your writing?  With out knowing this, I can not really intelligently comment on what you hope to achieve.
> 
> I think both Sir Newton and I can agree, the first thing you need to identify is your audience, go from there.
> 
> 
> Do you wish to just write for pleasure?
> 
> Do you want to write for posterity?  Do you hope to create high art and literature?
> 
> Or are all of these things, in the end, secondary goals, while is writing for profit the primary motive?
> 
> 
> See, I posted to soon.  With out knowing why you are writing, I cannot really intelligently comment on your writing thread.
> 
> 
> Some would say it makes no difference, but it makes all the difference in the world.
> 
> 
> 
> I am always on my son's case about reading pop fiction versus reading literature.   Seems today, folks love to gobble that shit up.
> 
> 
> 
> They love to write it as well.  If your end goal is to write pop fiction and pulp, listen to everything Sir Newton has said, it is right on the money, and it will help you make a mint.    The world always needs more Harlequin writers.
Click to expand...


You are just angry.

This is why posting a thread regarding something as positive as writing is not best assisted on a political message board. Harlequin writer? LOL.

Thank you judge of the world who hasn't read anything anyone here has written. People like you are just tiresome to the soul. Relax a little. Rembrandt and all the greats were taught and learned from masters. If someone can do it on their own, get to it. 

Safe to think someone asking for opinions on writing is asking for opinions on writing.


----------



## IsaacNewton

longknife said:


> If you are ever going to be successful as a writer - you have to approach it as a JOB. It requires dedication, gathering information, learning new things, set a schedule and adhere to it, and build a thick skin.
> 
> And, most important of all, if you can't properly tell the story, no one will read or listen to you.



I agree, story is the whole thing. You can get someone to look through and fix grammar and punctuation. The story has to be good. And you definitely need to develop a thick skin. You can't be married to what you write. Be passionate about it, but you have to be able to hand it to someone and have them say "this is terrible, and here's why". Then go about rewriting it.

Like everything it's like peeling up a piece of tape stuck to a the table. It takes a long time to get your fingernail under the tape, but once you do it comes right up.


----------



## koshergrl

IsaacNewton said:


> longknife said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you are ever going to be successful as a writer - you have to approach it as a JOB. It requires dedication, gathering information, learning new things, set a schedule and adhere to it, and build a thick skin.
> 
> And, most important of all, if you can't properly tell the story, no one will read or listen to you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, story is the whole thing. You can get someone to look through and fix grammar and punctuation. The story has to be good. And you definitely need to develop a thick skin. You can't be married to what you write. Be passionate about it, but you have to be able to hand it to someone and have them say "this is terrible, and here's why". Then go about rewriting it.
> 
> Like everything it's like peeling up a piece of tape stuck to a the table. It takes a long time to get your fingernail under the tape, but once you do it comes right up.
Click to expand...

 
This is terrible, because that is the worse metaphor I've seen in a long time.


----------



## MisterBeale

IsaacNewton said:


> MisterBeale said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dhara, Beale suffers in misery and like most who do is vomiting on your thread. If you want to start a new one I'll be glad to join in. This site lends itself to the angries of the world. It likely isn't the best site to discuss writing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're right, I do suffer, and suffer mightily.  If you knew me better you would know that cause, but with out knowing the details, you are launching a low brow ad hominem attack when someone dares to offer an alternative view point to your deeply held belief.  Open your mind to the possibility that there might be more than one way to do things.
> 
> Do you honestly think Steinbeck, Hemingway, Faulkner or Fitzgerald did all the stuff you are going on about?  Seriously?
> 
> I can tell you that wasn't Thoreau's method.
> 
> Although, I am not "vomiting," I am simply offering a different POV, which, without more info, it might have been premature.
> 
> 
> 
> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've decided to channel most of my interest in writing to journaling instead of posting on forums.
> 
> I thought I'd start a thread for writers and we could encourage each other.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What is your end goal through your writing?  With out knowing this, I can not really intelligently comment on what you hope to achieve.
> 
> I think both Sir Newton and I can agree, the first thing you need to identify is your audience, go from there.
> 
> 
> Do you wish to just write for pleasure?
> 
> Do you want to write for posterity?  Do you hope to create high art and literature?
> 
> Or are all of these things, in the end, secondary goals, while is writing for profit the primary motive?
> 
> 
> See, I posted to soon.  With out knowing why you are writing, I cannot really intelligently comment on your writing thread.
> 
> 
> Some would say it makes no difference, but it makes all the difference in the world.
> 
> 
> 
> I am always on my son's case about reading pop fiction versus reading literature.   Seems today, folks love to gobble that shit up.
> 
> 
> 
> They love to write it as well.  If your end goal is to write pop fiction and pulp, listen to everything Sir Newton has said, it is right on the money, and it will help you make a mint.    The world always needs more Harlequin writers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are just angry.
> 
> This is why posting a thread regarding something as positive as writing is not best assisted on a political message board. Harlequin writer? LOL.
> 
> Thank you judge of the world who hasn't read anything anyone here has written. People like you are just tiresome to the soul. Relax a little. Rembrandt and all the greats were taught and learned from masters. If someone can do it on their own, get to it.
> 
> Safe to think someone asking for opinions on writing is asking for opinions on writing.
Click to expand...


Hmmm. . . funny you should mention fine art.  I also trained in that area.

I wonder if you can tell me, was Norman Rockwell an Artist?

What do you seriously know of that field?  I doubt much at all.




And someone isn't "asking writers" for their opinions on writing.  Dhara is asking the general population for the opinion on what they think actual writers do.  

Do, please, link us to some of your published work. . . . 

Goodreads


I've already related some anecdotal stories about my conversation with Douglas Adams and my Lunch with Kurt Vonnegut. . . but please, tell us which authors you have met and trained with, and what they have told you.


----------



## IsaacNewton

MisterBeale said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MisterBeale said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dhara, Beale suffers in misery and like most who do is vomiting on your thread. If you want to start a new one I'll be glad to join in. This site lends itself to the angries of the world. It likely isn't the best site to discuss writing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're right, I do suffer, and suffer mightily.  If you knew me better you would know that cause, but with out knowing the details, you are launching a low brow ad hominem attack when someone dares to offer an alternative view point to your deeply held belief.  Open your mind to the possibility that there might be more than one way to do things.
> 
> Do you honestly think Steinbeck, Hemingway, Faulkner or Fitzgerald did all the stuff you are going on about?  Seriously?
> 
> I can tell you that wasn't Thoreau's method.
> 
> Although, I am not "vomiting," I am simply offering a different POV, which, without more info, it might have been premature.
> 
> 
> 
> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've decided to channel most of my interest in writing to journaling instead of posting on forums.
> 
> I thought I'd start a thread for writers and we could encourage each other.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What is your end goal through your writing?  With out knowing this, I can not really intelligently comment on what you hope to achieve.
> 
> I think both Sir Newton and I can agree, the first thing you need to identify is your audience, go from there.
> 
> 
> Do you wish to just write for pleasure?
> 
> Do you want to write for posterity?  Do you hope to create high art and literature?
> 
> Or are all of these things, in the end, secondary goals, while is writing for profit the primary motive?
> 
> 
> See, I posted to soon.  With out knowing why you are writing, I cannot really intelligently comment on your writing thread.
> 
> 
> Some would say it makes no difference, but it makes all the difference in the world.
> 
> 
> 
> I am always on my son's case about reading pop fiction versus reading literature.   Seems today, folks love to gobble that shit up.
> 
> 
> 
> They love to write it as well.  If your end goal is to write pop fiction and pulp, listen to everything Sir Newton has said, it is right on the money, and it will help you make a mint.    The world always needs more Harlequin writers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are just angry.
> 
> This is why posting a thread regarding something as positive as writing is not best assisted on a political message board. Harlequin writer? LOL.
> 
> Thank you judge of the world who hasn't read anything anyone here has written. People like you are just tiresome to the soul. Relax a little. Rembrandt and all the greats were taught and learned from masters. If someone can do it on their own, get to it.
> 
> Safe to think someone asking for opinions on writing is asking for opinions on writing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hmmm. . . funny you should mention fine art.  I also trained in that area.
> 
> I wonder if you can tell me, was Norman Rockwell an Artist?
> 
> What do you seriously know of that field?  I doubt much at all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And someone isn't "asking writers" for their opinions on writing.  Dhara is asking the general population for the opinion on what they think actual writers do.
> 
> Do, please, link us to some of your published work. . . .
> 
> Goodreads
> 
> 
> I've already related some anecdotal stories about my conversation with Douglas Adams and my Lunch with Kurt Vonnegut. . . but please, tell us which authors you have met and trained with, and what they have told you.
Click to expand...


You want a debate where none exists. Be happy. 

End of line.....


----------



## MisterBeale

koshergrl said:


> The most important thing is to smoke opium or to abuse other drugs.
> 
> 25 Great Writers Who Battled Drug Addiction and Alcoholism


Actually, this gets to what you were saying before, great writers aren't made, they don't train, etc.

You can't want to be a good or a great writer, you have it or you don't.

The reason they battle with drug and alcoholism is that it is a coping and self medicating mechanism.


The best writer on this forum is probably Mr. H. . .  if he were dedicated.  


During his more lucid moments, he can break your heart.


----------



## MisterBeale

IsaacNewton said:


> MisterBeale said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MisterBeale said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dhara, Beale suffers in misery and like most who do is vomiting on your thread. If you want to start a new one I'll be glad to join in. This site lends itself to the angries of the world. It likely isn't the best site to discuss writing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're right, I do suffer, and suffer mightily.  If you knew me better you would know that cause, but with out knowing the details, you are launching a low brow ad hominem attack when someone dares to offer an alternative view point to your deeply held belief.  Open your mind to the possibility that there might be more than one way to do things.
> 
> Do you honestly think Steinbeck, Hemingway, Faulkner or Fitzgerald did all the stuff you are going on about?  Seriously?
> 
> I can tell you that wasn't Thoreau's method.
> 
> Although, I am not "vomiting," I am simply offering a different POV, which, without more info, it might have been premature.
> 
> 
> 
> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've decided to channel most of my interest in writing to journaling instead of posting on forums.
> 
> I thought I'd start a thread for writers and we could encourage each other.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What is your end goal through your writing?  With out knowing this, I can not really intelligently comment on what you hope to achieve.
> 
> I think both Sir Newton and I can agree, the first thing you need to identify is your audience, go from there.
> 
> 
> Do you wish to just write for pleasure?
> 
> Do you want to write for posterity?  Do you hope to create high art and literature?
> 
> Or are all of these things, in the end, secondary goals, while is writing for profit the primary motive?
> 
> 
> See, I posted to soon.  With out knowing why you are writing, I cannot really intelligently comment on your writing thread.
> 
> 
> Some would say it makes no difference, but it makes all the difference in the world.
> 
> 
> 
> I am always on my son's case about reading pop fiction versus reading literature.   Seems today, folks love to gobble that shit up.
> 
> 
> 
> They love to write it as well.  If your end goal is to write pop fiction and pulp, listen to everything Sir Newton has said, it is right on the money, and it will help you make a mint.    The world always needs more Harlequin writers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are just angry.
> 
> This is why posting a thread regarding something as positive as writing is not best assisted on a political message board. Harlequin writer? LOL.
> 
> Thank you judge of the world who hasn't read anything anyone here has written. People like you are just tiresome to the soul. Relax a little. Rembrandt and all the greats were taught and learned from masters. If someone can do it on their own, get to it.
> 
> Safe to think someone asking for opinions on writing is asking for opinions on writing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hmmm. . . funny you should mention fine art.  I also trained in that area.
> 
> I wonder if you can tell me, was Norman Rockwell an Artist?
> 
> What do you seriously know of that field?  I doubt much at all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And someone isn't "asking writers" for their opinions on writing.  Dhara is asking the general population for the opinion on what they think actual writers do.
> 
> Do, please, link us to some of your published work. . . .
> 
> Goodreads
> 
> 
> I've already related some anecdotal stories about my conversation with Douglas Adams and my Lunch with Kurt Vonnegut. . . but please, tell us which authors you have met and trained with, and what they have told you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You want a debate where none exists. Be happy.
> 
> End of line.....
Click to expand...

Thank you.

I'll accept your concession and apology.


----------



## koshergrl

MisterBeale said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> The most important thing is to smoke opium or to abuse other drugs.
> 
> 25 Great Writers Who Battled Drug Addiction and Alcoholism
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, this gets to what you were saying before, great writers aren't made, they don't train, etc.
> 
> You can't want to be a good or a great writer, you have it or you don't.
> 
> The reason they battle with drug and alcoholism is that it is a coping and self medicating mechanism.
> 
> 
> The best writer on this forum is probably Mr. H. . .  if he were dedicated.
> 
> 
> During his more lucid moments, he can break your heart.
Click to expand...

I never said that great writers don't train. I simply contested the theory that the excruciating regime promoted by Isaac would turn anybody into a writer...or is the recipe for universal success.


----------



## IsaacNewton

MisterBeale said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MisterBeale said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MisterBeale said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dhara, Beale suffers in misery and like most who do is vomiting on your thread. If you want to start a new one I'll be glad to join in. This site lends itself to the angries of the world. It likely isn't the best site to discuss writing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're right, I do suffer, and suffer mightily.  If you knew me better you would know that cause, but with out knowing the details, you are launching a low brow ad hominem attack when someone dares to offer an alternative view point to your deeply held belief.  Open your mind to the possibility that there might be more than one way to do things.
> 
> Do you honestly think Steinbeck, Hemingway, Faulkner or Fitzgerald did all the stuff you are going on about?  Seriously?
> 
> I can tell you that wasn't Thoreau's method.
> 
> Although, I am not "vomiting," I am simply offering a different POV, which, without more info, it might have been premature.
> 
> 
> 
> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've decided to channel most of my interest in writing to journaling instead of posting on forums.
> 
> I thought I'd start a thread for writers and we could encourage each other.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What is your end goal through your writing?  With out knowing this, I can not really intelligently comment on what you hope to achieve.
> 
> I think both Sir Newton and I can agree, the first thing you need to identify is your audience, go from there.
> 
> 
> Do you wish to just write for pleasure?
> 
> Do you want to write for posterity?  Do you hope to create high art and literature?
> 
> Or are all of these things, in the end, secondary goals, while is writing for profit the primary motive?
> 
> 
> See, I posted to soon.  With out knowing why you are writing, I cannot really intelligently comment on your writing thread.
> 
> 
> Some would say it makes no difference, but it makes all the difference in the world.
> 
> 
> 
> I am always on my son's case about reading pop fiction versus reading literature.   Seems today, folks love to gobble that shit up.
> 
> 
> 
> They love to write it as well.  If your end goal is to write pop fiction and pulp, listen to everything Sir Newton has said, it is right on the money, and it will help you make a mint.    The world always needs more Harlequin writers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are just angry.
> 
> This is why posting a thread regarding something as positive as writing is not best assisted on a political message board. Harlequin writer? LOL.
> 
> Thank you judge of the world who hasn't read anything anyone here has written. People like you are just tiresome to the soul. Relax a little. Rembrandt and all the greats were taught and learned from masters. If someone can do it on their own, get to it.
> 
> Safe to think someone asking for opinions on writing is asking for opinions on writing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hmmm. . . funny you should mention fine art.  I also trained in that area.
> 
> I wonder if you can tell me, was Norman Rockwell an Artist?
> 
> What do you seriously know of that field?  I doubt much at all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And someone isn't "asking writers" for their opinions on writing.  Dhara is asking the general population for the opinion on what they think actual writers do.
> 
> Do, please, link us to some of your published work. . . .
> 
> Goodreads
> 
> 
> I've already related some anecdotal stories about my conversation with Douglas Adams and my Lunch with Kurt Vonnegut. . . but please, tell us which authors you have met and trained with, and what they have told you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You want a debate where none exists. Be happy.
> 
> End of line.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> I'll accept your concession and apology.
Click to expand...


I'm sure your mind 'accepts' many things.

Last post to you Louie De Palma. Sorry for this Dhara, your thread deserves better.


----------



## MisterBeale

IsaacNewton said:


> MisterBeale said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MisterBeale said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MisterBeale said:
> 
> 
> 
> You're right, I do suffer, and suffer mightily.  If you knew me better you would know that cause, but with out knowing the details, you are launching a low brow ad hominem attack when someone dares to offer an alternative view point to your deeply held belief.  Open your mind to the possibility that there might be more than one way to do things.
> 
> Do you honestly think Steinbeck, Hemingway, Faulkner or Fitzgerald did all the stuff you are going on about?  Seriously?
> 
> I can tell you that wasn't Thoreau's method.
> 
> Although, I am not "vomiting," I am simply offering a different POV, which, without more info, it might have been premature.
> 
> What is your end goal through your writing?  With out knowing this, I can not really intelligently comment on what you hope to achieve.
> 
> I think both Sir Newton and I can agree, the first thing you need to identify is your audience, go from there.
> 
> 
> Do you wish to just write for pleasure?
> 
> Do you want to write for posterity?  Do you hope to create high art and literature?
> 
> Or are all of these things, in the end, secondary goals, while is writing for profit the primary motive?
> 
> 
> See, I posted to soon.  With out knowing why you are writing, I cannot really intelligently comment on your writing thread.
> 
> 
> Some would say it makes no difference, but it makes all the difference in the world.
> 
> 
> 
> I am always on my son's case about reading pop fiction versus reading literature.   Seems today, folks love to gobble that shit up.
> 
> 
> 
> They love to write it as well.  If your end goal is to write pop fiction and pulp, listen to everything Sir Newton has said, it is right on the money, and it will help you make a mint.    The world always needs more Harlequin writers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are just angry.
> 
> This is why posting a thread regarding something as positive as writing is not best assisted on a political message board. Harlequin writer? LOL.
> 
> Thank you judge of the world who hasn't read anything anyone here has written. People like you are just tiresome to the soul. Relax a little. Rembrandt and all the greats were taught and learned from masters. If someone can do it on their own, get to it.
> 
> Safe to think someone asking for opinions on writing is asking for opinions on writing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hmmm. . . funny you should mention fine art.  I also trained in that area.
> 
> I wonder if you can tell me, was Norman Rockwell an Artist?
> 
> What do you seriously know of that field?  I doubt much at all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And someone isn't "asking writers" for their opinions on writing.  Dhara is asking the general population for the opinion on what they think actual writers do.
> 
> Do, please, link us to some of your published work. . . .
> 
> Goodreads
> 
> 
> I've already related some anecdotal stories about my conversation with Douglas Adams and my Lunch with Kurt Vonnegut. . . but please, tell us which authors you have met and trained with, and what they have told you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You want a debate where none exists. Be happy.
> 
> End of line.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> I'll accept your concession and apology.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm sure your mind 'accepts' many things.
> 
> Last post to you Louie De Palma. Sorry for this Dhara, your thread deserves better.
Click to expand...

You keep saying that Alex Rieger, but here you are, still stuck on-line, an amateur, going no where fast, posting where no one cares. 

It tells you that you know no more about what you are talking about and have to call folks names when confronted with the inescapable truth.


----------



## longknife

MisterBeale said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MisterBeale said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dhara, Beale suffers in misery and like most who do is vomiting on your thread. If you want to start a new one I'll be glad to join in. This site lends itself to the angries of the world. It likely isn't the best site to discuss writing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're right, I do suffer, and suffer mightily.  If you knew me better you would know that cause, but with out knowing the details, you are launching a low brow ad hominem attack when someone dares to offer an alternative view point to your deeply held belief.  Open your mind to the possibility that there might be more than one way to do things.
> 
> Do you honestly think Steinbeck, Hemingway, Faulkner or Fitzgerald did all the stuff you are going on about?  Seriously?
> 
> I can tell you that wasn't Thoreau's method.
> 
> Although, I am not "vomiting," I am simply offering a different POV, which, without more info, it might have been premature.
> 
> 
> 
> Dhara said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've decided to channel most of my interest in writing to journaling instead of posting on forums.
> 
> I thought I'd start a thread for writers and we could encourage each other.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What is your end goal through your writing?  With out knowing this, I can not really intelligently comment on what you hope to achieve.
> 
> I think both Sir Newton and I can agree, the first thing you need to identify is your audience, go from there.
> 
> 
> Do you wish to just write for pleasure?
> 
> Do you want to write for posterity?  Do you hope to create high art and literature?
> 
> Or are all of these things, in the end, secondary goals, while is writing for profit the primary motive?
> 
> 
> See, I posted to soon.  With out knowing why you are writing, I cannot really intelligently comment on your writing thread.
> 
> 
> Some would say it makes no difference, but it makes all the difference in the world.
> 
> 
> 
> I am always on my son's case about reading pop fiction versus reading literature.   Seems today, folks love to gobble that shit up.
> 
> 
> 
> They love to write it as well.  If your end goal is to write pop fiction and pulp, listen to everything Sir Newton has said, it is right on the money, and it will help you make a mint.    The world always needs more Harlequin writers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are just angry.
> 
> This is why posting a thread regarding something as positive as writing is not best assisted on a political message board. Harlequin writer? LOL.
> 
> Thank you judge of the world who hasn't read anything anyone here has written. People like you are just tiresome to the soul. Relax a little. Rembrandt and all the greats were taught and learned from masters. If someone can do it on their own, get to it.
> 
> Safe to think someone asking for opinions on writing is asking for opinions on writing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hmmm. . . funny you should mention fine art.  I also trained in that area.
> 
> I wonder if you can tell me, was Norman Rockwell an Artist?
> 
> What do you seriously know of that field?  I doubt much at all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And someone isn't "asking writers" for their opinions on writing.  Dhara is asking the general population for the opinion on what they think actual writers do.
> 
> Do, please, link us to some of your published work. . . .
> 
> Goodreads
> 
> 
> I've already related some anecdotal stories about my conversation with Douglas Adams and my Lunch with Kurt Vonnegut. . . but please, tell us which authors you have met and trained with, and what they have told you.
Click to expand...


Seeing as you mentioned it -- Goodreads


----------



## Dhara

IsaacNewton said:


> MisterBeale said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MisterBeale said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MisterBeale said:
> 
> 
> 
> You're right, I do suffer, and suffer mightily.  If you knew me better you would know that cause, but with out knowing the details, you are launching a low brow ad hominem attack when someone dares to offer an alternative view point to your deeply held belief.  Open your mind to the possibility that there might be more than one way to do things.
> 
> Do you honestly think Steinbeck, Hemingway, Faulkner or Fitzgerald did all the stuff you are going on about?  Seriously?
> 
> I can tell you that wasn't Thoreau's method.
> 
> Although, I am not "vomiting," I am simply offering a different POV, which, without more info, it might have been premature.
> 
> What is your end goal through your writing?  With out knowing this, I can not really intelligently comment on what you hope to achieve.
> 
> I think both Sir Newton and I can agree, the first thing you need to identify is your audience, go from there.
> 
> 
> Do you wish to just write for pleasure?
> 
> Do you want to write for posterity?  Do you hope to create high art and literature?
> 
> Or are all of these things, in the end, secondary goals, while is writing for profit the primary motive?
> 
> 
> See, I posted to soon.  With out knowing why you are writing, I cannot really intelligently comment on your writing thread.
> 
> 
> Some would say it makes no difference, but it makes all the difference in the world.
> 
> 
> 
> I am always on my son's case about reading pop fiction versus reading literature.   Seems today, folks love to gobble that shit up.
> 
> 
> 
> They love to write it as well.  If your end goal is to write pop fiction and pulp, listen to everything Sir Newton has said, it is right on the money, and it will help you make a mint.    The world always needs more Harlequin writers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are just angry.
> 
> This is why posting a thread regarding something as positive as writing is not best assisted on a political message board. Harlequin writer? LOL.
> 
> Thank you judge of the world who hasn't read anything anyone here has written. People like you are just tiresome to the soul. Relax a little. Rembrandt and all the greats were taught and learned from masters. If someone can do it on their own, get to it.
> 
> Safe to think someone asking for opinions on writing is asking for opinions on writing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hmmm. . . funny you should mention fine art.  I also trained in that area.
> 
> I wonder if you can tell me, was Norman Rockwell an Artist?
> 
> What do you seriously know of that field?  I doubt much at all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And someone isn't "asking writers" for their opinions on writing.  Dhara is asking the general population for the opinion on what they think actual writers do.
> 
> Do, please, link us to some of your published work. . . .
> 
> Goodreads
> 
> 
> I've already related some anecdotal stories about my conversation with Douglas Adams and my Lunch with Kurt Vonnegut. . . but please, tell us which authors you have met and trained with, and what they have told you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You want a debate where none exists. Be happy.
> 
> End of line.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> I'll accept your concession and apology.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm sure your mind 'accepts' many things.
> 
> Last post to you Louie De Palma. Sorry for this Dhara, your thread deserves better.
Click to expand...

Thank you.  Every word you posted is something I will return to again and again.  I'd like to read your work too.  Just for the learning.

For that reason, I am "following you" Isaac Newton.  "Stalking" you to read what you write.


----------



## Dhara

That brings up a question.  How does a writer move from what the writer knows to writing about something the writer wants to know?


----------



## there4eyeM

Patiently.


----------



## IsaacNewton

Dhara said:


> That brings up a question.  How does a writer move from what the writer knows to writing about something the writer wants to know?



Research. You want to write about 14th century Russia? Go to the library and research online. Or find experts in the areas you need to know about, call your local University and see if a professor there will answer questions for 15-30 minutes. Some want to get paid, others don't. Just keep a list of names so you can credit them if need be and tell them you will give them credit for research if you publish something. Don't be shy, the worst anyone can say is no. People generally like talking about the things THEY are interested in so the more people you ask the more hits your'll get. 

For instance I have been researching geology and archeology recently. I'll start online, if I find a particular book that looks like it has many answers or alot of info on the subject I'll buy it. Usually a used book on amazon or ebay or even at the local used book store. Or I'll check the local library where it's free! 

Also, write to writers you admire and ask them questions. You may get something back, you may not. Check their websites, maybe they have a forum that they respond to, or they are on twitter or facebook. 

All those famous people are just people. Some really don't want to be bothered but some like helping others. Find them. 

I wanted to know about gold. This is the first link I came to just now.   All The World's Gold

If you are writing fiction you don't have to be an expert but it certainly helps you tell a believable story if you know specific details about something.


----------



## IsaacNewton

Dhara said:


> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MisterBeale said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MisterBeale said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IsaacNewton said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are just angry.
> 
> This is why posting a thread regarding something as positive as writing is not best assisted on a political message board. Harlequin writer? LOL.
> 
> Thank you judge of the world who hasn't read anything anyone here has written. People like you are just tiresome to the soul. Relax a little. Rembrandt and all the greats were taught and learned from masters. If someone can do it on their own, get to it.
> 
> Safe to think someone asking for opinions on writing is asking for opinions on writing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmm. . . funny you should mention fine art.  I also trained in that area.
> 
> I wonder if you can tell me, was Norman Rockwell an Artist?
> 
> What do you seriously know of that field?  I doubt much at all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And someone isn't "asking writers" for their opinions on writing.  Dhara is asking the general population for the opinion on what they think actual writers do.
> 
> Do, please, link us to some of your published work. . . .
> 
> Goodreads
> 
> 
> I've already related some anecdotal stories about my conversation with Douglas Adams and my Lunch with Kurt Vonnegut. . . but please, tell us which authors you have met and trained with, and what they have told you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You want a debate where none exists. Be happy.
> 
> End of line.....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> I'll accept your concession and apology.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm sure your mind 'accepts' many things.
> 
> Last post to you Louie De Palma. Sorry for this Dhara, your thread deserves better.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thank you.  Every word you posted is something I will return to again and again.  I'd like to read your work too.  Just for the learning.
> 
> For that reason, I am "following you" Isaac Newton.  "Stalking" you to read what you write.
Click to expand...


Thanks, generally I come here for entertainment though, nothing serious. I'd say best to read the great works of literature first. There is a reason they are considered great.


----------



## MisterBeale

*Vonnegut: The secret ingredient in my books is, there has never been a villain *
Vonnegut: The secret ingredient in my books is, there has never been a villain






The point is to write as much as you know as quickly as possible.



I started out as copyboy, just stuck there in the office, waiting for somebody to move on so I could become a reporter. One Sunday I was there and had the police radio on. I heard that in an office building three blocks over, a guy had just been killed in an elevator accident. There was nobody else to go, so I went over, and I got there as soon as the fire department and police did.

The top of the elevator had come down and crushed the elevator operator. And I got to see this guy squashed and dead.

I phoned the story in, and my editor said, "Okay, call up his wife. What does his wife say?"

I said, "I can't do that."

He said, "Yes, you can."

Oh it was so dishonorable! I wouldn't do it now. If I had worked at City News much longer, I probably would have gotten sick of it.

Still, being a journalist influenced me as a novelist. I mean, a lot of critics think I'm stupid because my sentences are so simple and my method is so direct: they think these are defects. No. The point is to write as much as you know as quickly as possible.

In journalism you learn to write a story so someone can cut it without even reading it, putting all the most important stuff in the beginning. And in my books, for the first few pages I say what the hell is going to happen. When I taught at the University of Iowa Writers' Workshop, I told my students, "Look, I want you to write in such a way that should you drop dead, the reader ought to be able to finish the story for you."

I wasn't writing fiction in Chicago, just news and anthropology papers. Later, I started writing short stories and selling them. So I said, Hey, I'm a writer, I guess!



The man is a writing genius.  Fucking brilliant.  So easy to quote.  Just that short bit, just by itself is a work. It makes you want to read the entire piece.

Well, it does if you care about writing and not just Sophistry.


----------

