# Abbas suggests Obama promised 67 lines - E. Jerusalem



## proudveteran06 (Mar 17, 2014)

The Jewish Press » » Abbas Suggests Obama Promised ?67 Lines, E. Jerusalem Capital



 U.S. President Barack Obama met in the Oval Office with Mahmoud Abbas, the acting leader of the Palestinian Authority late morning on Monday, March 17.

Obama spoke first, welcoming Abbas to his office. As noted elsewhere in The Jewish Press, Obama made several absurd comments, such as commending Abbas as someone who has consistently renounced violence, has consistently sought a diplomatic and peaceful solution that allows for two states, side by side, in peace and security; a state that allows for the dignity and sovereignty of the Palestinian people and a state that allows for Israelis to feel secure and at peace with their neighbors.

But Abbas also played with Obamas words.

Obama uttered his standard everybody understands the outlines of what a peace deal would look like, involving a territorial compromise on both sides based on 67 lines with mutually agreed upon swaps, and never said a word about Jerusalem.

In Abbass responsive remarks, he transformed what Obama said into something quite different. Abbas made it sound as though Obama said that there would be a Palestinian State with the 67 lines (actually, the 1949 Armistice Lines) as its western border, and with eastern Jerusalem as its capital.



  I have a question; What exactly are the differences between the 1949 Borders that the Arabs rejected and the 67 Borders that were also rejected   THANKS !


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## Hossfly (Mar 17, 2014)

proudveteran06 said:


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I hope Netanyahu is properly pissed off after reading this crap.


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## Vigilante (Mar 17, 2014)

This guy is a muslim sympathizer and enabler.... and what does the PA say???

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_DUaJV1Yw4]Obama: '67 Borders Reflects Long-standing Policy - YouTube[/ame]


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## Hossfly (Mar 17, 2014)

Vigilante said:


> This guy is a muslim sympathizer and enabler.... and what does the PA say???
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> Obama: '67 Borders Reflects Long-standing Policy - YouTube


Sympathizer is an understatement.


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## proudveteran06 (Mar 17, 2014)

Vigilante said:


> This guy is a muslim sympathizer and enabler.... and what does the PA say???
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> Obama: '67 Borders Reflects Long-standing Policy - YouTube



He is a Muslim.


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## ogibillm (Mar 17, 2014)

peace, with any border, is preferable to the current situation.


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## proudveteran06 (Mar 17, 2014)

ogibillm said:


> peace, with any border, is preferable to the current situation.



" 67 Borders" that were never recognized before, no access to E. Jerusalem and " Right of Return'?      NEVER. !!


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## Hossfly (Mar 17, 2014)

ogibillm said:


> peace, with any border, is preferable to the current situation.


I don't think so. Just sayin'.


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## ogibillm (Mar 17, 2014)

Hossfly said:


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so you have no interest in peace. got it.


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## Vigilante (Mar 17, 2014)

ogibillm said:


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What is your mental problem. Israel GAVE Arafat 95% of what they wanted YEARS ago, and was turned down!

The PA did not want land. The land is only and excuse to do what they really want. That is to kill all Israelis and take Israel off the map


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## proudveteran06 (Mar 17, 2014)

ogibillm said:


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So you believe Israel should give in to every Palestinian demand without them making any concessions , have no rights in E. Jerusalem where their most religious sites are, and allow " Right of Return" which will eventually anneliate the Jewish State.  So you have no interest in peace Got it.


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## ogibillm (Mar 17, 2014)

Vigilante said:


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i see that posted a lot, but it's so much crap. first, fairly sure that "95%" is not a real number but is so much made up propaganda.

second, it assumes that every desire is equally weighted. we all know that just isn't true.

finally, you may claim that the PA doesn't want land and only wants to kill, but if that's true they aren't nearly as good at is as the IDF.


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## toastman (Mar 17, 2014)

ogibillm said:


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Why are you saying that the number 95% is not true?? Ever hear of the Camp David summit?
Do a little research before you call someones comment 'propaganda'


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## proudveteran06 (Mar 17, 2014)

toastman said:


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He"s lying . Ask him for links that prove he's right and there will be no response .  When challenged as to why Israel should give in to all demands and the Palestinians make no concessions there is no response . It's called Pro Palestinian Mentality.


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## ogibillm (Mar 17, 2014)

toastman said:


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i've heard of it, and i have no idea how the 95% number is arrived at.

but it doesn't really matter, because once again not all desires are equal.


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## ogibillm (Mar 17, 2014)

proudveteran06 said:


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assuming that were the case with me, don't you have a pro-israel mentality?

what concessions would you have israel make?


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## Vigilante (Mar 17, 2014)

ogibillm said:


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Thank GOD (if there is one) that is true. The PA were the ones dancing in the streets when almost 3,000 Americans were killed on 9/11.... Google THAT! 

The enemy of my enemy is my friend!


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## Hossfly (Mar 17, 2014)

ogibillm said:


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I can answer both questions.
 1. Goddamn right.

2. None whatsever.


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## toastman (Mar 17, 2014)

ogibillm said:


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Ok, well then do a little research and you'll see where that number came from


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## ogibillm (Mar 17, 2014)

Hossfly said:


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so again, you clearly feel that peace is not an option


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## Hossfly (Mar 17, 2014)

ogibillm said:


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Peace is an option. All the Pallihoovians have to do is play by the rules.


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## ogibillm (Mar 17, 2014)

Hossfly said:


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the rules israel makes. do you not see how that isn't a negotiation at all?

would you settle for only the scraps someone else decided you could have?


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## RetiredGySgt (Mar 17, 2014)

ogibillm said:


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We have seen the peace that the Palestinians provide. Constant rocket mortar and missile attacks, kidnappings, murder, suicide attacks, tunnels under the border to kidnap more.

Any peace with them is a joke. Further they categorically deny recognition of the Jewish State.  They refuse to renounce attacks and kidnappings. They refuse to rein in terrorist organizations. They purposefully teach their young to hate Jews and to martyr themselves when old enough or join terror groups.

Unless and until the Palestinians renounce all the ways they attack deny and murder Jews there can never be peace.


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## Vigilante (Mar 17, 2014)

ogibillm said:


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You THINK the so called Palestinians could find another place to live and breed besides Israel, I mean, HALF that land is unoccupied!


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## ogibillm (Mar 17, 2014)

RetiredGySgt said:


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you need to try to put yourself in their shoes. how would react in their situation? 
they're boxed in, not allowed self determination. resources and movement are restricted, and it's not uncommon to have tanks rolling through their neighborhoods killing people in a 10 to 1 ratio.

it's important to keep that in mind - perspective is everything.


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## Hossfly (Mar 17, 2014)

ogibillm said:


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You're surrounded, Custer. Fold your tent and go silently into the night.


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## RetiredGySgt (Mar 17, 2014)

ogibillm said:


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You blindly refuse to recognize those incidents are the direct result of attacks on Israel. Israel offered to help them set up their own Government years ago and the response was direct attacks on Israel and the intifada.


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## ogibillm (Mar 17, 2014)

RetiredGySgt said:


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the only thing i refuse to do is give either side a pass. 

playing the 'but he started it' game doesn't move things forward or help anyone.


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## Hossfly (Mar 17, 2014)

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You win a seegar! But you lost the game.


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## Phoenall (Mar 18, 2014)

ogibillm said:


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 Would you prefer to see the situation carry on much as it is now, or to see every Jewish man, woman and child brutally slaughtered and the land of Israel destroyed because they agreed to your kind of peace. Because make no bones about it that is the outcome if Israel concedes to your peace with any borders.


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## Phoenall (Mar 18, 2014)

ogibillm said:


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No it is real and can be found if you google Camp David. 95% OF WHAT WAS INITIALLY DEMANDED AND ARAFAT REFUSED TO EVEN SIT DOWN AND TALK. HE JUST DEMANDED MORE AND MORE CONDITIONS BEFORE HE WOULD TALK. THEN HE WALKED OUT AND ASKED CLINTON IF HE WAS PROUD OF HIS HARDLINE STANCE.

 Don't take my word for it read this

Camp David, 2000

 The details were not disclosed formally, but according to media reports Barak's offer included:
Israeli redeployment from 95% of the West Bank and 100% of the Gaza Strip
The creation of a Palestinian state in the areas of Israeli withdrawal
The removal of isolated settlements and transfer of the land to Palestinian control
Other Israeli land exchanged for West Bank settlements remaining under Israeli control
Palestinian control over East Jerusalem, including most of the Old City
"Religious Sovereignty" over the Temple Mount, replacing Israeli sovereignty in effect since 1967

In return Arafat had to declare the "end of conflict" and agree that no further claims on Israel could be made in the future. Despite the considerable concessions by Israel, Arafat chose not to negotiate, not to make a counter-offer but to just walk out. This was typical of the Palestinian leader's style: offer nothing, just say no and wait for more concessions. In fact, the Palestinian negotiating team did make concessions during the negotiating process, but Arafat himself never agreed.


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## Phoenall (Mar 18, 2014)

ogibillm said:


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 What happened to your other screen names, have they been wiped ?


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## Phoenall (Mar 18, 2014)

ogibillm said:


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 Those detailed in the UN charter and Res 242, and not another one. Time for the Israelis to be hard line and say sign or we impose an intifada on you, see how the Palestinians like getting some back.


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## Phoenall (Mar 18, 2014)

ogibillm said:


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 Try the rules that the UN make, the Geneva conventions and the IHL. The very rules Israel is forced to play by while the Palestinians unleash illegal chemical/biological weapons on them.


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## Phoenall (Mar 18, 2014)

ogibillm said:


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 They can leave at any time they want.

 The have self determination and use it to attack Israeli children

 Legally as it happens and warranted, would you give a child a box of matches to play with

 BULLSHIT  that is another pallywood LIE and BLOOD LIBEL


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## Sweet_Caroline (Mar 18, 2014)

*Yasser Arafat's not so brainy quotes:
Yasser Arafat Quotes - BrainyQuote*


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## jillian (Mar 18, 2014)

proudveteran06 said:


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suddenly you believe abbas? lmao

he always said 67 lines WITH EXCHANGES. which has been US policy for every president before him.


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## Sallow (Mar 18, 2014)

proudveteran06 said:


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You an Israeli?


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## Sallow (Mar 18, 2014)

Phoenall said:


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What?


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## jillian (Mar 18, 2014)

proudveteran06 said:


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actually "right of return" was part of the negotiations when arafat last negotiated 

perhaps knowing history would be good for you.

there will never be a right of "return".


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## Phoenall (Mar 18, 2014)

ogibillm said:


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 Aren't you doing the same thing when you constantly blame Israel for the problems. The problems are in retaliation to excessive violence and attacks on unarmed Israeli children. The constant rocket attacks with chemical/biological warheads don't help either. Would you just sit back and let your neighbours kill your children and destroy your home, or would you retaliate ?


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## Phoenall (Mar 18, 2014)

Sallow said:


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 Exactly what I wrote the Palestinians use chemicals like Coumadin an anticoagulant to coat the nails with, or pack the warheads with rotting meat and faeces. Imagine the scene if a child is hit by just one piece of shrapnel from such a weapon. 

Now go and look it up like a good little pro Palestinian


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## Sweet_Caroline (Mar 18, 2014)

A recent history of the conflict for the uninformed here:


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## jillian (Mar 18, 2014)

ogibillm said:


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israel took a thousand missiles before retaliating.  i know certain people hate when jews defend themselves.

you aren't giving neither side a pass. you're taking sides.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Mar 18, 2014)

Oslo Accord: What Happened And Why It Failed


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## Sallow (Mar 18, 2014)

Phoenall said:


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Um.

You realize how ridiculous you sound?

Numbers, facts and reports on record do not back you up.

Israelis rarely die in terrorist attacks.

However, Palestinians are frequently killed in Israeli raids.

The numbers between Israeli and Palestinians casualties don't even come close.


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## Phoenall (Mar 18, 2014)

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 The thing is since Israel built the wall the nasty Palestinians cant engage in suicide bombing anymore. The Israelis have provided every school with safe rooms and shelters to protect their children. The Palestinians put them in front of their "brave" soldiers so they get killed first. That coupled with the fact that the Palestinians prefer to fight from civilian areas putting civilian lives at risk. So the only way they can hope to inflict any collateral damage is to use illegal substances in the nail bombs


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## proudveteran06 (Mar 18, 2014)

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Answering a question with a question.     That is because you don't have an answer.


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## proudveteran06 (Mar 18, 2014)

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He won't google it . Consider the source.


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## RoccoR (Mar 18, 2014)

Sallow,  _et al,_

Wait a minute!  Please...



Sallow said:


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*(COMMENT)*

The Hostile Arab Palestinian (HoAP) may have a number of different complaints, even legitimate complaints...  BUT!  Being more efficient at defense and the counter-attack, is not a legitimate complaint.

I've heard variation of this complaint many times.

Remember, "proportionality" is NOT a prerequisite condition in the exchange of deadly-force.  Israel does not have to suffer any casualties just to prove it follows the Laws of Land Warfare and International Humanitarian Law.  The entire object of an adequate defense and the suppression of fire is to reduce, to the extent possible, effectiveness of hostile enemy actions, and to protect the lives of those being defended against Hostile Arab Palestinian enemy action. 

The observation made that Israelis suffer few casualties in the face of Arab Palestinian hostile enemy action and Hostile Arab Palestinian suffers more casualties as a consequence of their hostile enemy action is a testimonial to the greater effectiveness of the Israeli defensive and countermeasures.  But there is nothing sinister about it.  In the self-defense scenarios often faced by the Israelis, the aggressor (HoAP) uses or attempts to use deadly force against Israeli targets that have the right to respond with deadly force.

When the Israelis reasonably believe the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent, suppress, or terminate what the Israelis reasonably believes to be the commission or attempted use of deadly force by the HoAP, then so be it.  The consequences _(who lives or who dies)_ as a result of the encounter, is a matter of effectiveness and application.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Sweet_Caroline (Mar 18, 2014)

And the Israelis are fighting for their very lives and for the continuance of the Jewish State of Israel whereas its enemy knows it is not entitled to the land, glories in death and aspires to death as martyrs.


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 18, 2014)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> A recent history of the conflict for the uninformed here:
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> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcSYUItDdZc



Source:

Lying sack of shit, Dennis Ross.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Mar 18, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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Whoa, you are loosing it my little goldfish.


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## Hossfly (Mar 18, 2014)

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Brother Tinmore will always deny recorded history. I am stumped as to why.


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## proudveteran06 (Mar 18, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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Tell us what exactly was offered then and what Arafat rejected . Also, please tell us what counter offers Arafat made   . Lying Sack of Shit: A Palestinian.


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 18, 2014)

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## Sweet_Caroline (Mar 18, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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No comment to go with the illustration?


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## proudveteran06 (Mar 18, 2014)

Sweet_Caroline said:


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There are barely any areas under Israeli Sovereignty so what is he babbling about?


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 18, 2014)

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Sure, where is that 95%?

Or was that just a lie?


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## Hossfly (Mar 18, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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Watch the video, Tinmore and let us know if Yessir Arafart was a lying sack of Hamas.

http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/165975/video-arafat-recognizes-israel-as-a-jewish-state


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## Sweet_Caroline (Mar 18, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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Why is the red area not on that pie chart, my little goldfish?


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## Phoenall (Mar 18, 2014)

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 That is why I posted the deal offered by Israel, and Arafat refused to even discuss


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## Vigilante (Mar 18, 2014)

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HillBillyJilly thinks Kentucky is in Oklahoma, you dumb bitch! You're knowledge can be put on a head of a pin, with room left over!


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## toastman (Mar 18, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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The plan was to give the Palestinians over 70% of the West Bank immidiately while remainder would be given over the course of 10 years.
How do you not know this?????


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## Phoenall (Mar 18, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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Only to you because he does not say what you want to hear. Every single part of the video was correct and the Palestinians are just blood thirsty violent psychopathic mass murdering scum


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## toastman (Mar 18, 2014)

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Ask Tinmore what he's lied about and you wont get an answer


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## Phoenall (Mar 18, 2014)

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 lying sack of shit palestinian shill


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## proudveteran06 (Mar 18, 2014)

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Ask what  Counter Offers the Palestinians proposed that the Israelis rejected and there will be no response  . Lying sack of Palestinian Shit


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## Phoenall (Mar 18, 2014)

Sweet_Caroline said:


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 What can he say other than he lifted it from a pro Palestinian blog, and so it has no valid status. It is just one persons POV that suits his so he provides it as proof positive


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## proudveteran06 (Mar 18, 2014)

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Doubt he will read it     .     .      .


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## ForeverYoung436 (Mar 18, 2014)

75% of the Old City and the Temple Mount?  That's like offering the White House and the Capitol to the Russians.  The Palestinians will never get that deal again.


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## Phoenall (Mar 18, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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You do the math and see what you come up with

 61% under P.A. control

 14% under Israeli control but to be handed back

 That is 74% of the west bank that is not under Palestinian sovereignty as of May 2000, add that to the red areas on your map and you see 95% 

 Or did you forget about the red areas because they weren't represented in the pie chart


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## aris2chat (Mar 18, 2014)

proudveteran06 said:


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'67 left sinai and the WB under Israels control. '49 left Gaza in Egypt's hands and the WB in Jordanian control and Jerusalem was split.


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## proudveteran06 (Mar 18, 2014)

aris2chat said:


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According to the Palestinian the great " concession" the Palestinians are making is that they are NOT demanding Israel go back to the  '49 Borders vs. the " 67 Borders " ( Which were never recognized ) What is he talking about ?     THANKS !!?


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## aris2chat (Mar 18, 2014)

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smack dab in the middle of the Nefud?

Israel offered to take back 100,000 refugees if the arab states absorbed the rest, but that idea didn't fly.  Israel has absorbed through family reunification programs close to half that amount already over the decades.


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## aris2chat (Mar 18, 2014)

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Sharon's scheduled visit to the mount was approved by Rajub and Arafat well in advance. Sharon wanted to meet and shake Arafat's hand.  Instead Arafat had a truck load of rocks delivered to the mount and bused protesters to the mount.
It was an excuse not to the sign a deal.


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## proudveteran06 (Mar 18, 2014)

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Ask the original poster what the Palestinians brought to the " negotiating table" and just like the Tinman there will be no response.  !


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 18, 2014)

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Here is a map from a different source.


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## toastman (Mar 18, 2014)

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They brought nothing but demands


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 18, 2014)

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The Palestinians are offering to give Israel 78% of Palestine.

And the pigs want more.


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## proudveteran06 (Mar 18, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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The Palestinians aren't " offering " anything . Israel was created thanks to the UN .   " Palestine" was never a Country; It was a territory . However , the " 67 Borders" aren't enough. The Pigs want more . It's their goal to eventually annex Israel to " Palestine" which is why they refuse to acknowledge Israel as a Jewish State.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Mar 18, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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Palestinians are part of the Arab people.  It says so in their documents, usually in the first paragraphs.  They get their marching orders from the Arab League.  The Arabs have over 99% of the Middle East.  Also, the Israelis have offered land swaps in exchange for the settlement blocs that they want to keep.  The Galilee is mostly Arab, for instance, but the Arabs who live there don't want to become a part of Palestine.


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 18, 2014)

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The Palestinians have been offering to cede land to Israel for decades.

Israel has never accepted the offer.


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## Sally (Mar 18, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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> ...



How can a people who never existed until the 1970's give land to anyone?  However, Mr. Tinmore, it's nice to see the Hamas representative staying at his station in the U.S. to quickly reply to posts.  I think everyone is aware by now that the Arab thinking is that none of the land really belongs to the Jews; all the land in the Middle East should belong to them.


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## proudveteran06 (Mar 18, 2014)

ogibillm said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > ogibillm said:
> ...



It has been posted what the Israelis have offered. Why can't he post what the Palestinians have done to " negotiate? " that is because the answer is " nothing" Rather then admit it he chooses not to answer.


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## aris2chat (Mar 18, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



The offer was 14 yrs ago that settlement would be removed, but now Jordan does not want palestinians to control the Jordan valley, they want Israel to retain control.
Life goes on.  People expand and build homes.  Even if many of the settlements were cleared out, Israel would have developed and improved the area.
If jews want to remain and become palestinians, OK.  They should be allowed to.
To say that palestine should be totally jew free is highly races and could easily become muslim only or sunni only.  If IJ became the main force any peace with Israel could turn to WB/G declare war on Israel.
Security and disarmament is high on the list.  Not loosing the Western wall again is paramount.


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## Roudy (Mar 18, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> Vigilante said:
> 
> 
> > ogibillm said:
> ...


And what makes you think Arabs care about each other?  Can you point anytime in history that Arabs did anything other than provide lip service for each other?


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## aris2chat (Mar 18, 2014)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Sweet_Caroline said:
> ...



Red is within the the palestinian zone.


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## aris2chat (Mar 18, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



Hamas is not recognizing Israel or a peace agreement.  palestinians are not giving Israel 78% of palestine.  Israel is not a gift or trade, Israel is theirs already.  Palestinians must acknowledge Israel as a jewish state, past and future.  It will retain its protection of all jews, no matter the future demographics or political make up.


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## aris2chat (Mar 18, 2014)

Erekat pointed out that the Palestinians have already recognized the State of Israel, under the 1993 Oslo Accord. Asking them to go further would be demanding that Palestinians change their own narrative about the history of the land on which they live, he said, noting that his hometown of Jericho is 10,000 years old.

&#8220;Israelis cannot deny the fact that I have my own narrative, religion,&#8221; he asserted. Calling Israel a Jewish state would imply that &#8220;I was the intruder on this land. It&#8217;s not my story.&#8221;

Erekat added that the demand had been raised by Israeli negotiator Tzipi Livni three years ago and was not part of the original core issues of settlements, Jerusalem, refugees and security. &#8220;Let us confine ourselves to what we agreed to discuss, then Israel can define itself as it likes,&#8221; said Erekat. He added that if he were an Israeli negotiator, he would focus on "the end of conflict and the end of claims."
Al-Monitor: The Pulse of the Middle East


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## proudveteran06 (Mar 18, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...



They won't recognize Israel as a Jewish State because the plan for those Racist Pigs is to annex Israel to " Palestine ".


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## Sweet_Caroline (Mar 18, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Yes, which is why that map devised by a pro-Palestinian biased source is meant to fool us but it is obvious that the red area takes the land offered up to around the 95% mark.  ppppffttinmore ought to really source his information from credible links.


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## Phoenall (Mar 18, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...






 And it still comes out as 95% if you look.

 OH! and the source is exactly the same blog you used before


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## Phoenall (Mar 18, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...






 The Palestinians are offering nothing that Israel DOESN'T ALREADY HAVE.  the only thing they offer is genocide and destruction.

 Now do show a credible link to this 78% figure as that would take in all of Jordan, Syria, Iraq and parts of Lebanon. Does the PLO have the power to sign all that away ?


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## Phoenall (Mar 18, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...






 Proof from a credible source, or retract and admit you are wrong


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## proudveteran06 (Mar 18, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...




The Palestinians have been offering to " cede land for decades?"  Lets see.....  They want borders that were never accepted before, NJA/ No Israelis allowed in " Palestine" and " Right of Return" for approx. 6.5 Million Arabs IF they wanted to so Israel would be annexed to Palestine.    What are they " offering" again?  The answer is " nothing"     


 The population in Israel is just over 8 Million. 75 percent are Jewish.  Abbas wants the OPTION of having 6.5 Million Palestinians " return" which would automatically destroy Israel and annex it to the Palestinian State.   Let him keep insisting.  It will never happen.


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## toastman (Mar 18, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
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> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Lol. Comments like this dont warrant an actual response


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## toastman (Mar 18, 2014)

proudveteran06 said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



LOL you actually think Tinmore knows anything about Palestine or Israel?? 
He didnt even know that Palestine was technically founded as a sovereign state in 1988 (west bank and gaza).


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## proudveteran06 (Mar 18, 2014)

toastman said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



According to him " Palestine" became a Country around 1910 ( Forgot his exact date) When asked what kind of Govt they had, etc. etc. there is no response .


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## ForeverYoung436 (Mar 18, 2014)

proudveteran06 said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...



It was supposedly in 1924 in a treaty that I later read, which doesn't even mention Palestine at all.


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## SAYIT (Mar 18, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...



Crickets.


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## proudveteran06 (Mar 18, 2014)

SAYIT said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Not going to get a response.


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## toastman (Mar 18, 2014)

proudveteran06 said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...



Actually he said 1924 , the same date of the treaty of Lausanne, which a BTW doesnt even mention Palestine


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 18, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...



The first indication that the PLO would be willing to accept a two-state solution, on at least an interim basis, was articulated by Said Hammami in the mid-1970s.

Security Council resolutions dating back to June 1976 supporting the two-state solution based on the pre-1967 lines were vetoed by the United States

Two-state solution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## SAYIT (Mar 18, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



I glean from your source that Israel will be forced to cede land to the Palestinians in any two-state solution deal but not a word about the Palestinians, as you claim, ceding anything.


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## aris2chat (Mar 18, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



You forget that arafat walked into the UNGA with his side arm instead of an olive branch.
Then he tried to over throw Jordan's king and when he got kicked out He used Lebanon as a launching ground to attack Israel.  Then his men trigger a civil war in Lebanon that ended with him and his PLO getting the boot out of the country.

Such words of peace from his mouth meant nothing.


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 18, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



It was Israel's offer. Why don't you post Israel's map so we can see where they differ.


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## aris2chat (Mar 18, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Arafat refused the offer because it also would give the west wall to Israel, although the mount would have been part of palestine.
Arafat choose war over peace.
The offer no longer stands, nor will it be offered again.


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## proudveteran06 (Mar 19, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



He also wanted  " Right of Return" which would destroy Israel


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## Phoenall (Mar 19, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...






 Cant see any decades of ceding land to Israel in your link, just the tiny part you copied.

 Then you manipulated the next part and missed out this..........which argued that the borders must be negotiated directly by the parties. The idea has had overwhelming support in the UN General Assembly since the mid-1970s.

So how about this link that details the willingness of the Palestinians to cede land to the Israelis


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## Phoenall (Mar 19, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...






 Could it be that because Arafat walked out the map was never drawn, making your maps inexpert doodlings of what the pro Palestinians think.  The deal was offered and everyone involved saw that it was 95% of the land demands with a small amount of restructuring borders. A right of return for 100,000 Palestinians  and a phased withdrawal of Israeli troops. It is detailed on many sites from both sides but Arafat decided to instigate violence rather than peace.

 So why don't you explain why pro palestinians  refuse to deal with the reality and just want to demonise Israel and blame them for the lack of peace. What has abbass brought to the table in the recent round of talks apart from the usual 67 borders and right of return ?


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## proudveteran06 (Mar 19, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 19, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



The PLO is willing to accept partition using the armistice lines.


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## proudveteran06 (Mar 19, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...





They will accept the " 1949 Armistice Line" , Jews having no access to E. Jerusalem and " Right of Return" which will eventually annex Israel to the Palestinian State?  Now, that's a " deal" Israel can't pass up !


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 19, 2014)

proudveteran06 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



Israel cannot, at the same time, exist and comply with international law.

Very strange situation.


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## Phoenall (Mar 19, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...






 Which is not acceptable to the UN, Israel or the civilised world. The PLO signed away the 1949/1967 lines at Oslo and realised too late that they did not have a leg to stand on. They best they could expect is the state of play in effect when they finally declared independence in 1988. Forget the Islamic version of 242 as that dictates that the borders must be negotiated and be mutually acceptable. The more the Palestinians demand pre requisites before negotiating the more the world see's that don't want peace. Israel has shown it is honourable with the two treaties it has with Egypt and Jordan


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## Phoenall (Mar 19, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...






 Why what aspects of International law is it in breach of. And give examples from a credible source, not some pro Palestinian blog


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## proudveteran06 (Mar 19, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...





  You're right.  That is why Israel has no intention of doing so   

  It's not against " International Law' for both Parties to sit down and truely negotiate.  Even the Saudis have come to this Conclusion.  


  Where is that " link" proving the Palestinians offered land that the Israelis refused?    Doesn't exist;  Just like the " negotiations"


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## Roudy (Mar 19, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Yet it exists and is complying with international law. And it is doing magnificent.

Arab Palestine doesn't exist and never did.


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## toastman (Mar 19, 2014)

In case no one else has noticed, every offer given to the Palestinians has offered less territory over time.

First there was the partition plan which would have given them more territory then the 67 borders.
Then there was the offer of the 67 borders after the 6 day war, but the Palestinians signed the Khartoum resolution
Then there was the offer to Arafart in 2000 which was less land the. The previous offer.
Then there was Olmerts offer in 2008 which was less land then the previous offer
And then there is now, where the minimum of the OLmert offer has not been offered yet.


Not too smart these Palestinians , are they?


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## Sallow (Mar 19, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



They weren't suffering huge amounts of casualties prior to the wall either. And considering modern Israel is the result of one of the most successful terrorist movements, ever, this is pretty significant.

Britain was more than happy to give away land it didn't own to:

1. Solve their Jewish terrorist problem.
2. Motivate their own Jewish population to resettle there.

As was most of Europe.

It was a state born in lawlessness. And still continues in that spirit.

Israel regularly spies on the US, has killed both US military personnel and civilians and browbeats the US in most negotiations.

It's a nasty little country with a nasty reputation.

But..it will never be invaded because it has nukes.

So?

Lets let them deal with the world on it's own.

Maybe if their economy crashed because of it's high military expenditure, they will resort to something they seldom try.

Diplomacy.


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## toastman (Mar 19, 2014)

Actually, Israel was created lawfully after the cessation of the Mandate after declaring independence.
The US and Israel have already agreed that the USS liberty was a result of misidentification, and Israel has compensated the families.

Oh, and Israel DOES deal with its problems on her own. Just because the US supplies Israel with money and arms, doesnt mean that the they are taking care of Israels problems


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## Roudy (Mar 19, 2014)

toastman said:


> In case no one else has noticed, every offer given to the Palestinians has offered less territory over time.
> 
> First there was the partition plan which would have given them more territory then the 67 borders.
> Then there was the offer of the 67 borders after the 6 day war, but the Palestinians signed the Khartoum resolution
> ...


Low learning curve. They think they can't get what they want through savagery and terrorism. The clock is ticking.


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## Roudy (Mar 19, 2014)

Sallow said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Sallow said:
> ...


Israel is dealing with other countries on its own, and isn't more or less nasty than any Western democracy out there. In fact one can easily argue that it is more tolerant and open than many countries.


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## aris2chat (Mar 19, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



Israel was going to give land to increase Gaza by 10%

The past offer no longer is relevant.  It is no longer on the table.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Mar 19, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



There you have it folks!!  His true colors come out.  He won't even accept Israel within the Green Line, which everyone does.


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## RoccoR (Mar 19, 2014)

Sallow,  _et al,_

We need a little perspective here.



Sallow said:


> They weren't suffering huge amounts of casualties prior to the wall either. And considering modern Israel is the result of one of the most successful terrorist movements, ever, this is pretty significant.


*(COMMENT)*


The "huge amounts of casualties" is subjective.  Palestinian political violence _(Jihadism, Armed Fedayeen Struggle, terrorism by subgroups)_ has significantly reduced since the Construction of the Security Barrier _(AKA: The Wall)_.  This is simply a matter of record, and not just supposition.  Was the Security Barrier responsible for the entire reduction?  (Rhetorical)  No!  But is was an extremely important component in the overall anti-terrorism campaign against Hostile Arab Palestinian (HoAP) Operations that included massacres, suicide bombings, hijackings, piracy, rocket & mortar attacks, armed assaults, etc; many of which were directly targeted against harmless and defenseless civilian activities.

Israel was established as a 'Jewish State" under the auspices of the guidance and direction of the UN; and NOT by "of one of the most successful terrorist movements, ever."  General Assembly 181(II) was not a Partition Plan the UN agreed to at the point of a gun.  It was an outcome of the efforts by the Special Commission on Palestine.  If anything, it can be said the following the adoption of GA/RES/181(II), the terrorism and warfare by the Arab League and HoAP was in direct defiance of the UN Plan. 



Sallow said:


> Britain was more than happy to give away land it didn't own to:
> 1. Solve their Jewish terrorist problem.
> 2. Motivate their own Jewish population to resettle there.​As was most of Europe.


*(COMMENT)*

Britain (UK) (the LoN Mandatory) did not "give away" anything in the Mandate of Palestine.  The Independence of the "Jewish State" was accomplished pursuant to the "Steps Preparatory to Independence" adopted by the General Assembly.



Sallow said:


> It was a state born in lawlessness. And still continues in that spirit.


*(COMMENT)*
_*"People Who Live In Glass Houses Should Not Throw Stones"*_​
Israel was born under fire from Arab League Armies attempting to overturn the implementation of the Plan in defiance of the decisions by the United Nations.



Sallow said:


> Israel regularly spies on the US, has killed both US military personnel and civilians and browbeats the US in most negotiations.
> 
> It's a nasty little country with a nasty reputation.


*(COMMENT)*

Everyone spies on the US! ---  And some of the greatest American Allies today, were once enemies.  It is the way of the world and the human endeavor.  In the twilight of American Power and Influence, it is something the US will have to face as a challenge.

The reputation of Israel is what it is.  But in mitigation, it would be foolish for the HoAP, famed for its peaceful ways to make any comment.

*Terrorist Attack on TWA Flight 841*
This is the worst terrorist attack in the air which managed to get 8th position in our top 10 worst terrorist attacks of the historys list. It happened on September 8, 1974 when TWA Flight 841 flew from Athens to Rome. It stopped for around 68 minutes in Greece to take off once again. Originally it took off from Tel Aviv to reach to its destination i.e. New York City JFK International Airport. The plane suddenly crashed (though it was suspected an engine failure) into the Lonian Sea. This engine failure was later on discovered as the result of a small bomb blast in the plane. All 79 passengers lost their lives in this plane crash incident.​*Maa lot Massacre Terrorist Attacks*
May 15, 1973 was probably the worst day in Israeli history when a huge massacre happened in this only Jewish state on Earth. Three armed Palestinian terrorists were behind this terrorist attack who belonged to Liberation of Palestine. They successfully managed to enter into this Jewish state and used the route of Lebanon. More or less 115 people were taken as hostages by them and killed around 25 people. A couple along with their son (only 4-year-old) was also among victim in Maa lot town.​*Munich Massacre*
The Munich Olympic Games Massacre was an attack during the 1972 Summer Olympics in Munich, West Germany on 11 members of the Israeli Olympic team, who were taken hostage and eventually killed, along with a German police officer, by the Palestinian group Black September. Shortly after the crisis began, they demanded the release of 234 prisoners held in Israeli jails, and the release of the founders of the German Red Army Faction, who were held in German prisons.​*MS Achille Lauro Piracy*
On October 7, 1985, four PLF militants hijacked the Achille Lauro liner off Egypt. Thehijackers had been surprised by a crew member and acted prematurely. Holding the passengers and crew hostage, they directed the vessel to sail to Tartus, Syria, and demanded the release of 50 Palestinians then in Israeli prisons.
On October 8, after being refused permission by the Syrian government to dock at Tartus, the hijackers murdered Leon Klinghoffer, a retired, wheelchair-bound Jewish American businessman, shooting him in the forehead and chest. They then forced the ship's barber and a waiter to throw his body and wheelchair overboard.​


Sallow said:


> But..it will never be invaded because it has nukes.
> 
> So?
> 
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Nukes?  So what!

Diplomacy is something the HoAP seldom use.

Article 9: Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine.
Article 13:  There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad.
Maybe you should give advice to the PLO-Negotiation Affairs Department.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## toastman (Mar 19, 2014)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...



Tinmore thinks all of Palestine is occupied because the Palestinians never ceded land to the Jews to create Israel  
That should say enough about him


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## Sallow (Mar 19, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



And..that's fine.

No need for the aid.

I dunno why that's a huge problem with you folks.

I thought you were fiscally responsible.


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## Sallow (Mar 19, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> Sallow,  _et al,_
> 
> We need a little perspective here.
> 
> ...



That's a whole lotta verbiage there..bud.

All it does is dodge deflect and distract.

Israel, by the way, by it's existence, is a proof of concept for terrorism.

As is..Ireland.

Be that as it may..my point stands.

If Israel wants to continue to behave the way it does.

There is no reason, at all, for us, as a nation to fund them.


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## toastman (Mar 19, 2014)

Sallow said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Sallow said:
> ...



If you have a problem with Israel receiving aid, then go whine to the U.S for giving it. When in history has a country receiving grants from another country asked to stop receiving it?? 
Stop whining


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## Sallow (Mar 19, 2014)

toastman said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



You first.


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## toastman (Mar 19, 2014)

Sallow said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Sallow,  _et al,_
> ...



He didn't deflect anything. You just weren't capable of responding to ANY of his points.
Big fail on your part.

Now go pay your taxes so some of your money can go to Israel


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## toastman (Mar 19, 2014)

Sallow said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Sallow,  _et al,_
> ...





Sallow said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Sallow said:
> ...



So did you complain to the U.S yet about the grants they give to Israel?


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## Phoenall (Mar 19, 2014)

Sallow said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Sallow said:
> ...






 It did own the land under the terms of the mandate and that had it as one of its aims to allocate land for a Jewish home.

 The lawlessness came from the arabs who are noted to this day to be terrorist mass murderers.

 LIES

 MORE LIES

 Why not Pakistan was invaded and it had nukes.

 They are as morons like you make sure of that.

 Their record on diplomacy stands on its own feet as shown by the treaties it has signed with Egypt and Jordan, the negotiations they try to put to the Palestinians who refuse to talk.


 You are just a NAZI POS ANTI SEMETIC JEW HATING WORM


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## Phoenall (Mar 19, 2014)

Sallow said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Sallow said:
> ...






 Because it is not about the aid at the end of the day, it is about American jobs. Stop the aid and many thousands of Americans will be unemployed as a result. Put the aid into illegal support for American firms and see import duties rise to 100% of the cost on all exports. This will put more Americans out of work, and before you know it the country is bankrupt and dependent on charity from the rest of the world. Your nukes will get sold to some tinpot Islamic dictator and he will turn them on the US, Israel and anyone else he does not like.

 So are you still against giving Israel those loans to buy American made goods ?


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## Phoenall (Mar 19, 2014)

Sallow said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Sallow,  _et al,_
> ...






 You forget the biggest terrorist campaigns for land in Pakistan and Bangladesh when 10 million innocents were murdered by the muslim invaders. Then the land of Sudan and Darfur were again Islamic terrorism was used to gain land illegally.

 If you don't your country will be bankrupt within a year and sold of to China


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## Phoenall (Mar 19, 2014)

Sallow said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Sallow said:
> ...






 WHY ?    because you hate the Jews so much


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## Phoenall (Mar 19, 2014)

toastman said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...






 Or more precisely help to keep America PLC afloat


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## montelatici (Mar 19, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...




_Stop the aid and many thousands of Americans will be unemployed as a result._

Sales to Muslim nations would grow at a far greater rate without the need to give away money.  I mean, paying someone to buy something from you does not seem to be good business for Americans.  Great for the Jews of Israel though.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Mar 19, 2014)

If Israel wasn't at risk of constant attacks and vile threats by her surrounding neighbors, then perhaps her defense budget could be cut.  As it is Israel needs to purchase military ware.  Want to stop the military aid out of the US budget - then stop supporting the countries that are a threat to Israel.


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## Roudy (Mar 19, 2014)

Just imagine, Israel has achieved all that it has while defending herself against the entire Muslim world, basically.  That makes it all the more remarkable and miraculous.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Mar 19, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Just imagine, Israel has achieved all that it has while defending herself against the entire Muslim world, basically.  That makes it all the more remarkable and miraculous.



*Enough to make you feel that G-d is surely on the Jewish State of Israel's side.  
Did you read that Sherri, Billo, PFtinmore, and all the other ignorant haters on these boards.  
*


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## Sally (Mar 19, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Sallow said:
> ...



Why don't  we let the American people vote as to whom they wish to give aid to.  Perhaps they will vote to stop giving aid to those countries where their citizens have no problem killing innocent people for their religious beliefs, such as we find in so many Muslim counries.  I wonder if the topic this  week in this poster's madrassa is the aid given to Israel where the students are taught to try and negate the U.S. aid to Israel while increasing the aid to those countries who participate in mass killings.  I think I will go with a former poster, a retired Naval Intelligence officer, who said that if Americans knew just how much Israel has helped America, the American people wouldn't deny her anything and would be happy to assist her.  Let us not forget that so much of the aid that we give other countries goes right into the pockets of the tyrants and dictators and never reaches the people for whom it was intended.


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## RoccoR (Mar 19, 2014)

Roudy,  _et al,_

If one looks at the original layout of the Partition Plan,, one can easily see that they Plan would have set the conditions for a symbiotic relationship between the Jewish and Arab economies.  Essentially, had the Arab Palestinian accepted the offers allocated in the Partition Plan, they would have been, in all probability, a very prosperous and advanced society today.  



Roudy said:


> Just imagine, Israel has achieved all that it has while defending herself against the entire Muslim world, basically.  That makes it all the more remarkable and miraculous.


*(COMMENT)*

The principle problem then, as now, is that we expect the Arab-Palestinian to act rationally, with the best interest of the people at heart.  

Clearly, it doesn't appear that either HAMAS or Fatah is really acting in the best interest of the Palestinian People in terms of achieving peace, prosperity, and economic advancements.  
---
It can equally be argued that Benjamin Netanyahu and the Likud Party are always acting in the best interest of the Israeli People.
The achievement of the Israeli are based upon the principles that Israel is based on a foundation that it exists to help sustain and develop the Jewish People _(the Jewish National Home concept)_; a government of the people and for the people.  However, all the major power factions in the Arab Palestinian community are based on the concepts of asset attainment, individual power and influence, ownership; with a clear separation from the Jewish People _(religious awareness)_ in each decision.

So the achievements of Israel are not so much as "remarkable and miraculous" --- as they are --- representative of the differences, shown and demonstrated in outcomes, of a the decision processes.  One compares the outcomes between the decisions made by the Israelis and the decisions made by the Palestinians ---- and judges which was the better.

Theoretically, the risks the Arabs have taken in the last 60 (plus) years, should have been marginal.  The Arab outnumbered the Jews, they had formalized military forces, they had the Jews surrounded.  But the weakness of their decision making process was fatal.

As Hercule Poirot says,"You see, _mon ami_, the voices of the little gray cells have begun to sing."  Just maybe not for the Palestinian.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Sallow (Mar 19, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> You are just a NAZI POS ANTI SEMETIC JEW HATING WORM



Oookay.

But before we continue.

Jesus Christ is not your lord and savior, right?

He is NOT the messiah.

Agree or not?


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## toastman (Mar 19, 2014)

Sallow said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
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> > You are just a NAZI POS ANTI SEMETIC JEW HATING WORM
> ...



I would like to see you answer those two questions


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## ForeverYoung436 (Mar 19, 2014)

Sallow said:


> Phoenall said:
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> > You are just a NAZI POS ANTI SEMETIC JEW HATING WORM
> ...



What does this have to do with the price of tea in China (where,  incidentally, they don't worship JC)?


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## Sallow (Mar 19, 2014)

toastman said:


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Really?

No and No.

I'm an Atheist.

And a large part of my family follows the Jewish faith.

And they WERE from Germany.

Yeah..that Germany. Circa 1933.


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## Sally (Mar 19, 2014)

toastman said:


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I am chuckling because Sallow inadvertently assumes that Phoenall is Jewish.  It would never cross his mind that there are people in Britain and also millions and millions of Christians here in the U.S. who stick up for Israel.


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## Sallow (Mar 19, 2014)

ForeverYoung436 said:


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You've never heard of the Falun Gong, I suppose.

Incidentally? Most people in Israel do not think Christ was the savior nor do they worship him.


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## Sallow (Mar 19, 2014)

Sally said:


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No..

Which puts on display your stupidity.

I suspect the poster is a Christian.

And like most Christians who "stick" up for Israel, they do so hoping Jews in their country will make a beeline for that place.


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## Sallow (Mar 19, 2014)

Phoenall said:


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You made some ridiculous accusation.

I want to know what I am dealing with..

So?

You shouldn't be ashamed.


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## Sally (Mar 19, 2014)

Sallow said:


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Then why were you asking Phoenall about Jesus as the Messiah if you knew he was not Jewish?  Have you ever thought that many readers think  you "suck up" to the Islamic terrorists who are busy murdering innocent people?  It's so obvious how the anti-Semites turn a blind eye to what is happening in the rest of the Middle East and the rest of the Muslim world.  Since there are now so many intermarriages in the U.S., do you honestly think that most Christians want the Jews to make a beeline to Israel.  They know that is not going to happen so you only are displaying your own stupidity for stating what you did.


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## Sallow (Mar 19, 2014)

Sally said:


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Well, yeah..I do.

The perpetrators of the Holocaust were Christians.

The biggest mass murderers of Jewish people, ever.


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## Sally (Mar 19, 2014)

Sallow said:


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Times have changed, Sallow, in case you don't realize it.  Are we in the U.S. not friends with Germany and Japan these days?  Meanwhile, why not tell us who are mass murderers of innocent people in many areas of the world today?  I don't think it is the Christians since they appear to be the most persecuted group today.  However, why not take a chance and wander through some country where you would be considered an Infidel and see how you make out.  You can always tell them that you are busy on forums demonizing their enemies and see how they react to that.


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## Phoenall (Mar 19, 2014)

montelatici said:


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 Then why aren't they buying the goods now, why are they buying from Russia. The only way they would is if the USA gave them the aid they are giving to Israel so that would not make any difference.

 They are not paying Israel they are lending them the money, that has to be paid back in full. Israel can not refuse to take the money either as they would have to pay the penalty. So not so great for Israel but very good for American workers who are kept in work


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## Phoenall (Mar 19, 2014)

Sallow said:


> Phoenall said:
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 NO I don't agree, I am a Christian from Britain. Burst your bubble didn't I


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## Phoenall (Mar 19, 2014)

Sallow said:


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 Now why don't I believe you ?


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## Phoenall (Mar 19, 2014)

Sallow said:


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 Correct and that is their religion, they did not see him as THE MESSIAH. But they did see him as one of the minor Prophets.


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## Phoenall (Mar 19, 2014)

Sallow said:


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 Well you would be wrong as some of my good friends are Jewish, and I would not want them to leave. They are pillars of the community and it is a sad thing that many muslims are attacking them. The local community is doing what they can to stop the attacks but are limited by left wing politics.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Mar 19, 2014)

Sallow said:


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Technically the Nazis were Christian, but they didn't make a big deal about religion.  The Holocaust, in their sick minds, was a "racial" thing.


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## Phoenall (Mar 19, 2014)

Sallow said:


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 And you would be wrong again as the German leaders were Satanists, and Hitler is alleged to have converted to islam.


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## proudveteran06 (Mar 19, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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The first proposal for the creation of Jewish and Arab states in the British Mandate of Palestine was made in the Peel Commission report of 1937, with the Mandate continuing to cover only a small area containing Jerusalem. The recommended partition proposal was rejected by the Arab community of Palestine;[5][6] was accepted by most of the Jewish leadership; Later rejected by the British government as impracticable.[7]

Partition was again proposed by the 1947 UN Partition plan for the division of Palestine. It proposed a three-way division, again with Jerusalem held separately, under international control. The partition plan was accepted by the Jewish leadership. However, the plan was rejected by the leadership of Arab nations and the Palestinian leadership at the time, which opposed any partition of Palestine and any Jewish presence in the area. The 1948 Arab-Israeli War for control of the disputed land broke out soon afterwards.


  This came from HIS thread !!!!!!


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## aris2chat (Mar 19, 2014)

Phoenall said:


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Thule are occultists not satanists.


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## proudveteran06 (Mar 19, 2014)

Sallow said:


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> ...





  No, he is not our " Lord and Savior" but so what?

  Below are a List of Non- Christian Religions.   I will add two more; Athiests and Agnostics

Buddhism 
 Confucianism 
 Hinduism 
 Islam 
 Janism 
 Judaism 
 Paganism 
 Sikhism 
 Shintoism 
 Taoism 
 Zoroastrianism


 Athiests

 Agnostics


  Why does it always bother Fake Bible Thumpers so much that ONLY the Jewish people don't believe what THEY believe?  Better question; Why should it bother them about what ANYONE believes?


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## Sally (Mar 19, 2014)

proudveteran06 said:


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He doesn't seem to have a problem with Muslims believing that when Jesus returns, He is going to break all the crosses and preach Islam.  Nor does he seem to have a problem with the Muslims murdering so many Christians in the Muslim world that they are the most persecuted people today.


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## proudveteran06 (Mar 19, 2014)

Sally said:


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  He has obviously learned well from Sheri.   This is the ONE time she acknowledged what Muslims are doing to Christians around the World


Does Jesus really dislike persecution of Christians?

He told Christians to expect persecution. 

  She is actually DEFENDING it.  Obviously, THEY don't believe  Jesus  is the Messiah.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Mar 19, 2014)

proudveteran06 said:


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Wiccans, Bahais, etc.  I know someone who calls herself "a witch" (in the religious sense, not in terms of personality).


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 19, 2014)

proudveteran06 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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> Later rejected by the British government as impracticable.



And Britain would not implement partition in 1947 for the same reason.

And what makes it more practicable now when partition is called the two state solution?


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## toastman (Mar 19, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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Not true. Had the Arabs accepted the partition it would have went through


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## proudveteran06 (Mar 19, 2014)

toastman said:


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By his OWN thread he ADMITS the Arabs rejected it . Obviously if they had accepted it, " later" would not have been an issue


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 19, 2014)

toastman said:


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Why should they have accepted something that was impracticable?


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## toastman (Mar 19, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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I didn't say they had to, that's not the issue.

But Had they done so, they would have more territory than the 67 borders .

Even Abbas said it was a mistake to reject it


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## proudveteran06 (Mar 19, 2014)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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What the Palestinian means is that they shouldn't accept ANY " Two State Solution "


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 19, 2014)

proudveteran06 said:


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It is a bizarre thing to ask them to accept.

No other country in the world would accept it.


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## toastman (Mar 19, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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Agreed, no other other country would accept that, but since Palestine was not a country in 1947, and had NO SOVEREIGNTY over the land, it's not the same as saying ' no other country would accept it'


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 19, 2014)

toastman said:


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Now all you have to do is to get millions of Palestinians to believe that shit.


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## aris2chat (Mar 19, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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Not picking up the pieces around the world from the aftermath of WWII.

The Israel/palestine area have resources, industry, water and power as well as agriculture it did not have back then.


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## proudveteran06 (Mar 19, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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Doesn't matter . There will be no " Right of Return" for over five Million Palestinians who have that " OPTION "   The goal is for Israel to be annexed to a Palestinian State and that will not happen .  " Right of Return" also mentions those who want to " live in peace with their Neighbors"  Fir that reason alone, it's DOA.


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## Phoenall (Mar 20, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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 Now it is too late for any plan devised before 2014 to be implemented. Why not go back to 1924 and the conference that set up the whole thing. We can keep going back until islam was not invented and the same thing is shown every time . The Jews have more rights to Palestine than the arab muslims


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## Phoenall (Mar 20, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
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 Yet you are demanding that Israel accept something now that is not just impracticable but suicide. The 1947 partinion plan is ancient history, as are the 67 ceasefire lines. Now we are in 2014 and the PLO has already granted Israel most of the west bank under the oslo accords, so live with the reality that Israel is in the west bank due to Palestinian stupidity.


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## Phoenall (Mar 20, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> proudveteran06 said:
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 Yet we see just this in the former Yugoslavia were muslims caused civil war and the portioning of a nation into smaller nations. Then more recently we have seen more muslim violence causing the partition of Sudan into 2 states, and the muslims still want it all.


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## Phoenall (Mar 20, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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 It is easy to do just tell them they have two choices return to were you came from or be evicted. If they don't like it ask Jordan and Egypt to change their minds for them.


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## toastman (Mar 20, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
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What did I say that was incorrect?? Why is it that the documented truth is 'shit' to you? What does convincing the Palestinians about the truth have to do with anything??


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 20, 2014)

Phoenall said:


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The armistice lines never were borders.

Oslo was a five year framework toward a peace agreement. None of the proposals made in Oslo mean anything until a peace agreement is signed.

Partition has never been the solution. Partition has always been the problem.


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 20, 2014)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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The document that created the mandate called Palestine a country ten times.

What documents do you have that contradicts this?


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## toastman (Mar 20, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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I have facts that prove Palestine became a sovereign nation in 1988. 
Why would you ask me for documents that contradict what you said when you know Im right? 
Why are you debating facts that are not up for debate?


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 20, 2014)

toastman said:


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I just asked you to post your "facts."

You ducked.


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## Sallow (Mar 20, 2014)

proudveteran06 said:


> Sallow said:
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Wait, what?

First off the question was not directed at you.

Secondly Atheism is not a religion. Agnostics are religious folks that question the existence of a god, so it's not a "separate" religion.

And I don't know who you are calling a fake bible thumper.


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## toastman (Mar 20, 2014)

You need me to post proof that Palestine became a sovereign nation in 1988???????


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## Sallow (Mar 20, 2014)

Sally said:


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So it's "Holocaust Schmolocaust" times have changed, eh?

And the US just had a bloody ol' time in Iraq, recently..didn't they? The majority of the 100,000 or so people killed were done so by a nation that you cite as mostly Christian, right?

Christians, historically, view themselves as "persecuted", gin up the crimes, vilify a group of people and then massacre them. The Holocaust was not the first time this was done.

And apparently, not the last.


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 20, 2014)

toastman said:


> You need me to post proof that Palestine became a sovereign nation in 1988???????



No. That wasn't the question.


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## Sallow (Mar 20, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> Sallow said:
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Of course you didn't burst my bubble.

I knew what you were from the jump.

And the Nazi tag fits you, chief. Moreso than it fits me.

I come from a family that has a good number of people who believe in the Jewish faith.

You really should be careful when you throw that tag around.

Makes you look like an idiot.


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## toastman (Mar 20, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
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> > You need me to post proof that Palestine became a sovereign nation in 1988???????
> ...



Was Palestine a sovereign nation in 1947 ? YES OR NO?

Did Palestinian Arabs have any sovereignty over the entire land of Palestine? YES OR NO?


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 20, 2014)

toastman said:


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Those weren't the question either.

The right to self determination without external interference does not require sovereignty.

That is a useless question.


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## toastman (Mar 20, 2014)

Why are you scared to answer the questions
And no they are not useless questions, but I notice you say that quite often over questions you don't like to answer or topics you don't like to discuss


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## Sallow (Mar 20, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> Sallow said:
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> My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.
> 
> -Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 20, 2014)

toastman said:


> Why are you scared to answer the questions?



It is only a diversion from the discussion. It has no meaning.


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## toastman (Mar 20, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Why are you scared to answer the questions?
> ...



Its not a diversion. You are diverting by refusing to answer them.

So, can you please answer the two questions and stop ducking?


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 20, 2014)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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Where are your documents showing that Palestine was not a country?

You are the one ducking and diverting.

You are trying to lead me down a rabbit hole.

No thanks.


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## toastman (Mar 20, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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All I hear is quacking from all the ducking you're doing. Keep it up.


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 20, 2014)

toastman said:


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Where are your documents showing that Palestine was not a country?

That was the question.

Where is your answer?


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## toastman (Mar 20, 2014)

How could they have been a country before 1988 when it was in 1988 that they became one???
If you need documents for this, then you have some issues Tinmore, and I dont mean that as an insult


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## Phoenall (Mar 20, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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 Yet you constantly refer to the '67 borders as if they were, why is this.

 WRONG  as Israel implemented their part of the Oslo accords in August 2005 at the insistence of the Palestinians.   See here for the main aspects of Oslo

 Key agreements[edit]

Key agreements in the Oslo process were:
IsraelPLO letters of recognition (1993). Mutual recognition of Israel and the PLO.

The Oslo I Accord (1993). The "Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements", which declared the aim of the negotiations and set forth the framework for the interim period. Dissolution of the Israeli Civil Administration upon the inauguration of the Palestinian Legislative Council (Article VII).

The GazaJericho Agreement or Cairo Agreement (1994). Partial Israeli withdrawal within three weeks from Gaza Strip and Jericho area, being the start of the five-year transitional period (Article V of Oslo I). Simultaneously transfer of limited power to the Palestinian Authority (PA), which was established in the same agreement.[4] Part of the Agreement was the Protocol on Economic Relations (Paris Protocol), which regulates the economic relationship between Israel and the Palestinian Authority, but in effect integrated the Palestinian economy into the Israeli one.[8] This agreement was superseded by the Oslo II Accord, except for Article XX (Confidence-Building Measures). Article XX dictated the release or turn over of Palestinian detainees and prisoners by Israel.

The Oslo II Accord (1995). Division of the West Bank into Areas, in effect fragmenting it into numerous enclaves and banning the Palestinians from some 60% of the West Bank. Redeployment of Israeli troops from Area A and from other areas through "Further Redeployments". Election of the Palestinian Legislative Council (Palestinian parlement, PLC), replacing the PA upon its inauguration. Deployment of Palestinian Police replacing Israeli military forces in Area A. Safe passage between West Bank and Gaza. Most importantly, start of negotiations on a final settlement of remaining issues, to be concluded before 4 May 1999.

All later agreements had the purpose to implement the former three key agreements


 Agreed the UN should have went with the original plan devised and accepted by all parties, including the arab muslims, in 1920 at San Remo. This gave what is now known as Palestine in its entirety to the Jews as a homeland. The non Jews were offered re-location to another nation or Israeli citizenship


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## Phoenall (Mar 20, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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 Which document was that then, the San Remo conference or the Conference of London ?


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## Phoenall (Mar 20, 2014)

toastman said:


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 He is counting the number of times the mandate for Palestine is mentioned as meaning it was a nation, and not an area on the map.


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## Phoenall (Mar 20, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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 Here you go then

State of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 This article is about the state proclaimed in 1988 that later became an observer of the United Nations

Is Palestine now a state? - CBS News

 So, is Palestine now a State? 


Here's what the U.N.'s own charter, and international law have to say on the matter:


"The recognition of a new State or Government is an act that only other States and Governments may grant or withhold. It generally implies readiness to assume diplomatic relations. The United Nations is neither a State nor a Government, and therefore does not possess any authority to recognize either a State or a Government," according to the United Nations.


A state may be considered a state by other countries, but not be a member of the U.N. -- as is the case with the Holy See and Kosovo, for example. The United States recognizes 195 states, whereas there are only 193 members of the U.N. 


U.S. Ambassador to the U.N. Susan Rice made the U.S. government's stance on the Palestinians abundantly clear after Friday's vote, telling the assembly:* "This resolution does not establish that Palestine is a state." *


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## Phoenall (Mar 20, 2014)

Sallow said:


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 I have had this same argument before with ignorant anti semites who use Christianity as a hammer to crack a nut.

 Can you provide one instance of American troops extolling GOD AS THEY WENT INTO BATTLE.   You know like muslims do when they are on one of their murderfests and scream allahu ahkbar constantly as they murder, pillage and rape


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## Phoenall (Mar 20, 2014)

p f tinmore said:


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> ...





 yes it was


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## Phoenall (Mar 20, 2014)

Sallow said:


> Phoenall said:
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 Then stop acting and posting like a NAZI ANTI SEMITIC JEW HATER


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## Sallow (Mar 20, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> Sallow said:
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Posting that Israel should deal with it's neighbors in an equitable and diplomatic fashion is being a "Nazi"?

In CAPS!

Oh I see. 

You folks are something else..seriously.


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## Phoenall (Mar 20, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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 Which the Palestinians were offered and given every chance to put in place. They refused and brought in OUTSIDE INFLUENCE in the guise of the arab league. From then they have exercised their right to self determination by attacking Israel without any legal justification. Unless you can provide evidence to the contrary that says Israel is not a nation ?


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## Sallow (Mar 20, 2014)

Phoenall said:


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Seriously?

BBC NEWS | Americas | US is 'battling Satan' says general



> Evangelical Christian Lieutenant-General William G Boykin was also quoted as saying a Muslim warlord in Somalia had an "idol" for a God.
> 
> Secretary Rumsfeld, questioned by journalists, defended the general's statements as "a private affair".



Do you even bother to think about what you post?


----------



## Phoenall (Mar 20, 2014)

Sallow said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Sallow said:
> ...






 Which only proves that he was Christian warped by his Jew hated even then.  Tony Blair was a Protestant right up until he resigned as Prime Minister and then he became a catholic. When Hitler came to power he was already a Satanist, and empowered his followers to devise a new German religion based on Aryan principles but with some Christianity thrown in.


 Want to try again using his speeches from 1936 to 1945


----------



## Phoenall (Mar 20, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...







 There are none as Palestine was not a country but was defined in the San Remo conference as an area of land to be partitioned into Lebanon, Syria, trans Jordan and a homeland for the Jews. No mention of a Palestinian state or nation to be incorporated into the plan. You try and hide the fact that the original area of Palestine included Lebanon, Syria, Trans Jordan and Israel. And that under the mandate the ruling powers could evict or re-locate people at will. If the world knew in 1947 what it knows now they would have stationed troops in the M.E with the remit to shoot to kill


----------



## Phoenall (Mar 20, 2014)

Sallow said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Sallow said:
> ...






 But you don't, you demonise and discriminate against the Jews and Israel. When it is pointed out that Israel is prepared to talk you deny that they will. They start of with a solution they know will be rejected, that is how negotiations work, and eventually come to an agreement that is acceptable to all. It is the Palestinians and their stuck in the 7c mentality that are the problem, yet you blame Israel and cite instances of them defending their people as examples of their refusal to talk.

 that is the actions of a Nazi anti-Semitic Jew hater in anyones book.


----------



## Phoenall (Mar 20, 2014)

Sallow said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Sallow said:
> ...






 Do you as I see no mention of the troops going into battle screaming GOD IS GOOD, GOD IS GREAT.    One man is not a nation, and he has his personal demons to contend with.

 Now find one instance of a Christian running into battle screaming GOD IS GOOD, GOD IS GREAT like the muslims do.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Mar 20, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



Hitler and the Nazis killed Jews who had converted to Christianity, even a famous nun.  People who had even one Jewish grandparent, on their father's side, were killed too.  (Judaism is passed thru the mother's side.)  It was a sick, "racial" issue with them.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Mar 20, 2014)

toastman said:


> How could they have been a country before 1988 when it was in 1988 that they became one???
> If you need documents for this, then you have some issues Tinmore, and I dont mean that as an insult



1988 has no relevance to the question of the status of Palestine before the creation of Israel.

The documents that I have seen, and previously posted, say that it was a country.

You have not posted anything to refute that.


----------



## toastman (Mar 20, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > How could they have been a country before 1988 when it was in 1988 that they became one???
> ...



1988 was the year Palestine was declared a sovereign state, yet it has no relevance?? Wow, just wow Tinmore.


----------



## toastman (Mar 20, 2014)

Tinmore, are you saying there was an Arab state ex Palestine before 1988 ? Yes or no?


----------



## RoccoR (Mar 20, 2014)

P F Tinmore,  _et al,_

The Brits made this abundantly clear.  PLEASE consider your statement refuted!



P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > How could they have been a country before 1988 when it was in 1988 that they became one???
> ...


*(OBSERVATION)*



			
				EXCERPTS:  UK MEMORANDUM NAMES COMMISSION AS SUCCESSOR GOVERNMENT - 27 February 1948 said:
			
		

> "Palestine is today a legal entity but it is not a sovereign state. Palestine is a territory administered under mandate by His Majesty (in respect of the United Kingdom), who is entirely responsible both for its internal administration and for its foreign affairs.
> 
> "After the 15th May, 1948, Palestine will continue to be a legal entity but it will still not be a sovereign state because it will not be immediately self-governing. The authority responsible for its administration will, however, have changed.
> 
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Before there was an Israel, the Government of Palestine was the UK as Mandatory.  After the establishment of the State of Israel, the Government of Palestine was the UNPC.

Try to keep on top of this.  You get it wrong every time.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Mar 20, 2014)

phoenall said:


> p f tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



OK, but by the time the Treaty of Lausanne was signed Palestine had defined international borders, with established nationality and citizenship of the natives.


----------



## RoccoR (Mar 20, 2014)

P F Tinmore,  _et al,_

Yes, there was a Government for Palestine.



P F Tinmore said:


> phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > p f tinmore said:
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

The Government for Palestine, and the borders, were established by the Allied Powers through the assignment of the Mandate.  As harsh as it may sound, the Arabs had nothing at all to do with it.  The Treaty of Lausanne has nothing to do with it. 

The issues of Nationality and Citizenship were determined by the Order in Council. 

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## toastman (Mar 20, 2014)

Rocco, was there an Arab state or country called Palestine before 1988?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Mar 20, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> 
> The Brits made this abundantly clear.  PLEASE consider your statement refuted!
> 
> ...



OK, but even under an appointed administration, it was still the country of Palestine.

As for the UNPC, when did it ever step foot in Palestine and what did it do to protect its citizens under its watch?


----------



## RoccoR (Mar 20, 2014)

toastman,

No!



toastman said:


> Rocco, was there an Arab state or country called Palestine before 1988?


*(COMMENT)*

Palestine is the original short-title for the phrase:  Mandate for Palestine.  The Government of Palestine was the assigned Mandatory (ie British).

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Mar 20, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> toastman,
> 
> No!
> 
> ...



Not so.

Palestine was still there after the mandate left Palestine.


----------



## toastman (Mar 20, 2014)

Tinmore, did you read the quote that says that Palestine was not a sovereign state, but a legal entity? ? That means it was not a country. A country and a sovereign state are the same thing. So are you going to stop calling it that?????


----------



## toastman (Mar 20, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > toastman,
> ...



Palestine the what?


----------



## toastman (Mar 20, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> toastman,
> 
> No!
> 
> ...



Yes, I used to say the same thing until I was somehow convinced that Mandatory Palestine and Palestine were not the same thing.

Thanks for clearing it up for me


----------



## RoccoR (Mar 20, 2014)

P F Tinmore,  _et al,_

Not a country!



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Palestine was legal entity ---.  There was no Arab Government in place.  The Arab Higher Committee rejected participation in the "Steps Preparatory to Independence."

The UNPC, implemented the Israeli acceptance of the Partition Plan and helped the Jewish execute the final "Steps Preparatory to Independence.   The UNPC was forced out of the Mandate to Palestine when the Arab League Armies attacked.  They did not afford the UNPC any time to make a difference. 

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Mar 20, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> 
> Not a country!
> 
> ...



Do you have any document to back that up?


----------



## RoccoR (Mar 20, 2014)

toastman,  _et al,_

Don't let them confuse you.



toastman said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > toastman,
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

The name territory and authority over Palestine was established by the Council.



			
				The Palestine Order in Council said:
			
		

> *PART I. PRELIMINARY.*
> 
> Title.1. This Order may be cited as "The Palestine Order in Council, 1922."
> 
> ...



Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## RoccoR (Mar 20, 2014)

P F Tinmore,  _et al,_

Yes I have...



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> ...


*(OBSERVATION)*



			
				PALESTINE COMMISSION ADJOURNS SINE DIE said:
			
		

> During today's brief meeting, Dr. Eduardo Morgan (Panama) said that this resolution of the Assembly merely "relieves responsibility. The Commission has not been dissolved.* In fact the resolution of last November 29 has been implemented."*
> 
> _*SOURCE:*_ PAL/169 17 May 1948



v/r
R


----------



## GISMYS (Mar 20, 2014)

God says==FOR BEHOLD, in those days and at that time when I shall reverse the captivity and restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, I will gather all nations and will bring them down into the Valley of Jehoshaphat, and there will I deal with and execute judgment upon them for their treatment of My people and of My heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations and because they have divided My land." [Joel 3:1-2


----------



## P F Tinmore (Mar 20, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> 
> Yes I have...
> 
> ...



Where are the documents showing what they did to implement the resolution. Dr. Eduardo Morgan said that we are done, we are out of here. Where are the thing they were supposed to do like physically laying out the proposed borders and setting up the jurisdiction of Jerusalem, among others?


----------



## toastman (Mar 20, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> ...



Wow  just wow


----------



## RoccoR (Mar 20, 2014)

P F Tinmore,  _et al,_

Unfortunately, the UN didn't have your leadership and guidance to direct the UNPC>  So they didn't try to meet your requirements, which differ from the "Steps Preparatory to Independence."



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

There were three separate aspects to the Partition Plan.

Jewish State
Arab State
Jerusalem
The UNPC only had to implement the portion that was preparatory to the independence of the Jewish State.  The original boundaries did not deviate from that of the Partition Plan.  What changed the boundaries was the conflict that immediately ensued.

The UNPC had to meet UN criteria and not the PF Tinmore criteria.  The declarations and clarifications on, amoung other things, the boundaries, were discussed by the UN in enclosure to Application of Israel for admission to membership in the United Nations (A/818).  These were accepted by the UN General Assembly and culminated in "Admission of Israel to membership in the United Nations (A/RES/273)."

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## montelatici (Mar 20, 2014)

The Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem consisted of Palestine and holdings in Syria and Lebanon.  Palestine is referred to in histories of the Latin Kingdom, including the most respected written by LIEUT.-COL. C. R CONDER.  The table of contents is below. Palestine existed within the Christian state and prior as a province within an Arab Caliphate.  All these attempts to deligitimize the rights of the Christians and Muslims of Palestine are infantile.



THE 



LATIN KINGDOM OF JERUSALEM. 



1099 TO 1291 A.D. 



BY 



LIEUT.-COL. C:*R:' CONDER, LL.D., M.R.A.S., R.E., 

Author of " Tent Work in Palestine" " Heth and Moab" etc. 




PUBLISHED BY THE 

COMMITTEE OF THE PALESTINE EXPLORATION FUND, 
24, HANOVER SQUARE, LONDON. 

1897. 
[All rights reserved. ] 




V 



LONDON : 

HARRISON AND SONS, PRINTERS IN ORDINARY TO HER MAJESTY. 
ST. MARTIN'S LANE. 




CONTENTS. 



PAGE 

PREFACE v. 

CHAP, I. PETER THE HERMIT . i 

,, II. THE MARCH TO ANTIOCH ... 28 

,, III. THE FOUNDING OF THE KINGDOM 55 

,, IV. THE GROWTH OF THE KINGDOM 75 

,, V. THE Loss OF THE KINGDOM 119 

,, VI. THE FRANK LIFE IN PALESTINE 161 

VII. THE NATIVE LIFE IN PALESTINE 215 

., VIII. THE THIRD CRUSADE 251 

,, IX. THE THIRTEENTH CENTURY FRANKS 294 

,, X. ST. Louis ... ... ... ... ... ... 344 

,, XL THE TARTARS 366 

,, XII. THE Loss OF ACRE 386 

CONCLUSION .. ... 414 

INDEX 429 



H 2 



MAPS. 



MAP OF WESTERN PALESTINE SHEWING THE LATIN 
FIEFS .. -


----------



## toastman (Mar 20, 2014)

What attempts are you referring to??


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Mar 20, 2014)

montelatici said:


> The Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem consisted of Palestine and holdings in Syria and Lebanon.  Palestine is referred to in histories of the Latin Kingdom, including the most respected written by LIEUT.-COL. C. R CONDER.  The table of contents is below. Palestine existed within the Christian state and prior as a province within an Arab Caliphate.  All these attempts to deligitimize the rights of the Christians and Muslims of Palestine are infantile.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, I am aware of the Kingdom of Jerusalem which was created under the Christian Crusaders.  It was called the Kingdom of Jerusalem, not Palestine.  It was destroyed by the Muslims.


----------



## Sallow (Mar 20, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



Really now?

So was Martin Luther a "Satanist" when he wrote this?

On the Jews and Their Lies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

How about King Charlamange when he forced conversions?
Charlemagne - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And all the other folks..

Forced conversion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You folks have a long and bloody history.


----------



## toastman (Mar 20, 2014)

Sallow said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Sallow said:
> ...



What exactly are you trying to say?


----------



## montelatici (Mar 20, 2014)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > The Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem consisted of Palestine and holdings in Syria and Lebanon.  Palestine is referred to in histories of the Latin Kingdom, including the most respected written by LIEUT.-COL. C. R CONDER.  The table of contents is below. Palestine existed within the Christian state and prior as a province within an Arab Caliphate.  All these attempts to deligitimize the rights of the Christians and Muslims of Palestine are infantile.
> ...



It was called the Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem and Palestine was the main holding.  Your position would deny that England or Wales exist because they are part of the United Kingdom. Silly position to take.


----------



## Phoenall (Mar 20, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> ...





 The documents you have posted have been shown to not prove the existence of a Palestinian state before 1988. In matter of fact not one of the originals contain any reference to Palestine, and it is only the deviousness of the author you rely on that inserted the term Palestine. If there had been a nation of Palestine when your source says there was then Lebanon, Syria and trans Jordan could not have been brought into existence. That is the simple concept you cant or wont understand, that Palestine at the time of the treaties he uses was all of those nations and the small part left that is disputed today.

 Whaqt did the Palestine nation do to protect ALL of its citizens on its watch. Because Jews and Christians are just as much valid Palestinians as muslims, and have as much right to free determination as the muslims.  This is something you deny by never mentioning the fact that under Palestinian rule the Jews and Christians have suffered greatly and been ethnically cleansed from their ancestral homes.


----------



## montelatici (Mar 20, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



You are so full of crap.  The Jews and the Muslims defended Jerusalem from  Christian (Crusader) attacks.  Muslims and Jews were allies against the Christian (European) invader.  Read some history.

Today, Palestinian Christians are just as oppressed by Jews as Muslim Christians. To wit:

"Since the Israeli occupation began in 1967, Israel has confiscated thousands of acres belonging to Palestinian Christians and Muslims. In the Jerusalem and Bethlehem areas, Christians have been severely affected by Israels colonization policies. As an example, approximately 5,436 acres of land from northern Bethlehem were unilaterally annexed by Israel to create the illegal settlements of Gilo and Har Homa  which Israel now cynically calls new Jerusalem neighborhoods.

The plight of Palestinian Christians | JPost | Israel News


----------



## RoccoR (Mar 20, 2014)

_et al,_

We've jumped around here a bit.

What is the argument now and what are the allegations?

v/r
R


----------



## aris2chat (Mar 20, 2014)

Jews could not serve in the Islamic military.


----------



## Sally (Mar 20, 2014)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > The Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem consisted of Palestine and holdings in Syria and Lebanon.  Palestine is referred to in histories of the Latin Kingdom, including the most respected written by LIEUT.-COL. C. R CONDER.  The table of contents is below. Palestine existed within the Christian state and prior as a province within an Arab Caliphate.  All these attempts to deligitimize the rights of the Christians and Muslims of Palestine are infantile.
> ...



Let's face ot. a Muslim or Dhimmi like montelatici  would never look for a book that tells about the Muslim conquest of the surrounding  countries when they left the Saudi Arabian Peninsula.  The people who were living their were among the early Christians and very, very devout.  Perhaps montelatici  doesn't care that millions of people were forced to convert to Islam and many who refused were murdered.  As for the Palestinians, I think this is an interesting piece.

http://chersonandmolschky.com/2014/01/09/palestinians-invented-people/


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Mar 20, 2014)

Sally said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



The article you posted should be mandatory reading.


----------



## RoccoR (Mar 20, 2014)

ForeverYoung436,  _et al,_

Yes --- this was a hot topic then.



ForeverYoung436 said:


> Sally said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

A number of participants in the discussion made similar observations.

OFFICIAL RECORDS OF THE FIRST SPECIAL SESSION OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY (VOLUME III)

I was making a similar argument with PF Tinmore, relative to where "Palestinian" was included in "Greater Syria."

In 1947, it may have been relevant.  But today, it has been overtaken by events.  

I happen to agree, just as a matter of a point in history that:



			
				Palestinians: The Invented People said:
			
		

> "The representative of the Arab Higher Committee to the United Nations submitted a statement to the General Assembly in May 1947 that said, Palestine was part of the Province of Syria, and that, politically, the Arabs of Palestine were not independent in the sense of forming a separate political entity."
> _*SOURCE:*_ Cherson and Molschky



Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Phoenall (Mar 20, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...






Try coming more up to date if you can, and if you read the Oslo Accords you will see that the P.A signed away all that land so Israel has not confiscated anything .

 "The Oslo II Accord (1995).* Division of the West Bank into Areas, in effect fragmenting it into numerous enclaves and banning the Palestinians from some 60% of the West Bank*. Redeployment of Israeli troops from Area A and from other areas through "Further Redeployments". Election of the Palestinian Legislative Council (Palestinian parlement, PLC), replacing the PA upon its inauguration. Deployment of Palestinian Police replacing Israeli military forces in Area A"


 Now how do you like them apples, that destroy your argument in one fell swoop and shows your sources to be wrong and out of touch with the reality. Isn't it also very biased against any treaties made with the Palestinians representatives ?


----------



## Phoenall (Mar 20, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> _et al,_
> 
> We've jumped around here a bit.
> 
> ...





 The Jews are stealing land.

 The Jews are murdering Palestinians

 The Jews are starving Palestinians

 The Jews are Nazis

 The Jews are the cause of all the problems


 have I missed anything out ?


----------



## Phoenall (Mar 20, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> Jews could not serve in the Islamic military.






 Correct as only muslims are allowed to bear arms.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Mar 20, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> 
> Unfortunately, the UN didn't have your leadership and guidance to direct the UNPC>  So they didn't try to meet your requirements, which differ from the "Steps Preparatory to Independence."
> 
> ...



Britain, as the mandate, refused to implement resolution 181 because it was not approved by both sides. The Security Council was faced with the prospect of having to implement it by force and it was not willing to do that. The US was proposing an alternate plan.

Then Israel unilaterally declared independence completely separate from the UN. There are some legal problems with this forced takeover of Palestinian land.


----------



## toastman (Mar 20, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> ...



Israel legally declared independence after cessation of the Mandate. I've showed you that link that says that many times from a credible source. There was nothing illegal about it. You say that Israel DI away from the U.N, but not only is that not true, but the U.N also recognized Israel's declaration
And, for the last time, Resolution 181 was the basis for Israel AND Palestine declaring independence, as the links I have posted several times say


----------



## toastman (Mar 20, 2014)

Ob, and there was no takeover of Palestinian land. The Jews had their shit together, the Arabs didn't.


----------



## Sallow (Mar 20, 2014)

toastman said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



What's not clear to you?

Christianity has a long and very bloody history.


----------



## RoccoR (Mar 20, 2014)

P F Tinmore,  _et al,_

I think you have to read the "entire" quote from the UK.  I think the next line is important.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

There were two implied remarks in the:

11/20/1947  GA/PAL/76  UK states views on partition and unitary plans - Ad Hoc Cttee - Press release
that His Majesty's Government could not play a major part in the implementation of a scheme that was not acceptable to both the Arabs and the Jews;
that they would, however, not wish to impede the implementation of a recommendation approved by the General Assembly.




P F Tinmore said:


> Then Israel unilaterally declared independence completely separate from the UN. There are some legal problems with this forced takeover of Palestinian land.


*(COMMENT)*

There was no forced takeover.  The application was review by both the Security Council and the General Assembly.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Roudy (Mar 20, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> Jews could not serve in the Islamic military.


Nor could they participate in any sports events representing a Muslim nation, for example, the Olympics, no matter how good they are or how much they deserve it. This is how sick and disgusting Muslims are.


----------



## Roudy (Mar 20, 2014)

Sallow said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Sallow said:
> ...


No relevance to today. Both religions have had a bloody past except Christianity has moved past it and Islam hasn't. In fact it wants to drag the rest of the world back to the medieval  barbaric ages, by violence if necessary.


----------



## proudveteran06 (Mar 21, 2014)

toastman said:


> Ob, and there was no takeover of Palestinian land. The Jews had their shit together, the Arabs didn't.



" Palestine" doesn't exist , It's a territory; Not a Country.


----------



## Phoenall (Mar 21, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> ...






Yet since 1988 the ICJ has decreed that "The Court has also held that the right of self-determination as an established and recognized right under international law applies to the territory and to the Palestinian people. Accordingly, the exercise of such right entitles the Palestinian people to a State of their own as originally envisaged in resolution 181 (II) and subsequently confirmed." In response, Prof. Paul De Waart said that the Court put the legality of the 1922 League of Nations Palestine Mandate and the 1947 UN Plan of Partition beyond doubt once and for all.

 This means that you are screwed along with Palestine, and you will have to stop Lying about Jews taking over Palestine as the PLO has said they didn't


----------



## Phoenall (Mar 21, 2014)

Sallow said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Sallow said:
> ...






 While Islam has a very much shorter but very much more bloody history. Just how many Jews has islam murdered in the last 1400 years compared to the numbers killed by Christianity.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Mar 21, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



No link?


----------



## Sweet_Caroline (Mar 21, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



When you need a link try copying and pasting the sentence or passage into Google search and you will find links you want.  Just a friendly tip to save time when you ask for links.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Mar 21, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> 
> I think you have to read the "entire" quote from the UK.  I think the next line is important.
> 
> ...



Sure, 750,000 Palestinians left theiy homes because Israel said please.

BTW, your link calls Palestine a* country* twice.


----------



## Phoenall (Mar 21, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...






 Yes one that you have used, but never fully

United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 The Resolution as a legal basis for Palestinian statehood[edit]

In 1988, the Palestine Liberation Organization published the Palestinian Declaration of Independence relying on Resolution 181, arguing that the resolution continues to provide international legitimacy for the right of the Palestinian people to sovereignty and national independence.[94] A number of scholars have written in support of this view.[95][96][97]

A General Assembly request for an advisory opinion, Resolution ES-10/14 (2004), specifically cited resolution 181(II) as a "relevant resolution", and asked the International Court of Justice (ICJ) what are the legal consequences of the relevant Security Council and General Assembly resolutions. Judge Abdul Koroma explained the majority opinion: "The Court has also held that the right of self-determination as an established and recognized right under international law applies to the territory and to the Palestinian people. Accordingly, the exercise of such right entitles the Palestinian people to a State of their own as originally envisaged in resolution 181 (II) and subsequently confirmed."[98] In response, Prof. Paul De Waart said that the Court put the legality of the 1922 League of Nations Palestine Mandate and the 1947 UN Plan of Partition beyond doubt once and for all.[99]

   Game set and match to the good guys I believe, and a massive fail for you


----------



## Phoenall (Mar 21, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> ...






No they left because the arab armies demanded they leave or be shot.


 What link ?


----------



## Sallow (Mar 21, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



You really shouldn't go there.

Christians have murdered millions upon millions of Jews.

So many that Pope John Paul had to apologize.

Then Nazi Pope Benedict had to go and ruin it.

Pope ends year as he began it -- with apology to Jews - CNN.com



> He started the year by welcoming a Holocaust-denying bishop back into the fold, and ended it by putting the controversial World War II-era Pope Pius XII one step closer to sainthood. Both caused uproars.
> 
> "It seems that the pope doesn't always know what's going out under his name, or the impact of what's going out under his name, which is very strange to observe because John Paul II was so media-savvy," said Ruth Ellen Gruber, a Jewish journalist and author who has long been based in Rome.
> 
> ...



Seriously..you guys couldn't find anyone better?

Thankfully..Francis is Pope now.

I like the guy.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Mar 21, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



*Typical Israeli lie!*

Only a few percent left by request of Arab leaders.


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## Phoenall (Mar 21, 2014)

Sallow said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Sallow said:
> ...






 You can like him all you want the fact remains that muslims have mass murdered more Jews than the Christians ever did. In Spain alone nearly 1 million were massacred during the Islamic reign. Then look at the population figures for the M.E. and see how many Jews have been murdered by muslims, because they sure haven't migrated to other countries or the population figures for them would have risen.

 You cant put together a better argument than this to defend and support your fellow ISLAMONAZIS, is it any wonder you are getting your buts kicked by minute Israel.


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## Phoenall (Mar 21, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...






 Not according to the arabs themselves who were told to leave, or are you calling them LIARS as well ?


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 21, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



It was still only a few percent.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Mar 21, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
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> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



By a few you mean how many percent and can you prove it with a link?


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## toastman (Mar 21, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Many Palestinians were expelled during the 1948 war and the 6 day war. 
I have no problem admitting that. 
But, they're not coming back. That's just they way it is Tinmore. 
They should have convinced the Palestinian militia groups and the surrounding Arab states not to attack Israel. 

Too little too late.


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## RoccoR (Mar 21, 2014)

P F Tinmore,  _et al,_

Just a short follow-on.



P F Tinmore said:


> Sure, 750,000 Palestinians left theiy homes because Israel said please.
> 
> BTW, your link calls Palestine a* country* twice.


*(COMMENT)*

Refugee columns are not unusual in any war.  There is not one single reason for a community to abandon their homes and move out of the theater of combat military operations.  Some will move as a matter of common sense and to avoid becoming collateral casualties.   Some will move on because, as non-combatants, they are being evacuated to avoid unnecessary casualties.  Some will be move out of the area because the represent a fifth columnist threat to rear area operations.  There are many reasons for a refugee column to form.  You are only focused on one of them.

Second, in respect to the attachment of the word "country" --- you will no doubt notice that in this regard, the Government of that named country was the UK, and not the Palestinians.  In no way did anything in the link remotely suggest that the Arab Palestinians had a "country."  In fact, no Arab-Palestinian Government was even mentioned in the link.  The word "country" was never used in the context of an Arab Palestinian Government or sovereignty.  The status of the territory, held in trust by the UK as the Mandatory, was then _(in that time frame - 20 November 1947)_ and unequivocally stated in a release on (PAL/138) 27 February 1948, concerning the Successor Government, as a "legal entity but it is not a sovereign state."

It can be made no more plain then that; in the proper context.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Phoenall (Mar 21, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
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 Around about 95% that moved out at the demands of the arab armies, the other 5% were insurgents that fought alongside the arab armies and were forced to leave Israel as a result. Unless you have a link from a creditable source that says otherwise


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## montelatici (Mar 21, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> 
> Just a short follow-on.
> 
> ...



From UN Security Council no. 46 of 17 April 1948 


"Considering that, as stated in that resolution, it is of the utmost urgency to bring about the immediate cessation of acts of violence in *Palestine* and to establish conditions of peace and order in that *country*,"

S/RES/46 (1948)-S/723 of 17 April 1948

Continued moronic attempts at deligitimizing the rights of Christians and Muslims of Palestine hold little water.  The UN itself cites Palestine as a country in the same paragraph.  Being sovereign or not is another issue. Oppressive regimes with power can and will withhold sovereignty from peoples.


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## toastman (Mar 21, 2014)

montelatici said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
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> > P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
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Why don't you go on google and do some research as to when Palestine actually became a sovereign state. It shouldn't take you too long. 
Then get back to me


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## toastman (Mar 21, 2014)

montelatici said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
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> > P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
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No one is trying to de legitimize anyone. We started this discussion about when Palestine became a sovereign state. 
There is nothing you can say that will change the fact that Palestine became a 'Country' in 1988. End of story


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## montelatici (Mar 21, 2014)

toastman said:


> montelatici said:
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Not the "end of story".  Palestine was no different in 1988 than it was in 1948.  It had no sovereignty in 1948 and had no sovereignty in 1988.  It had sovereignty when it was the Latin Kingdom and limited sovereignty while under the Caliphate at different times.


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## toastman (Mar 21, 2014)

montelatici said:


> toastman said:
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Wow, and you're accusing others of drinking kool aid?

Do I need to provide links or can you look it up yourself??


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## RoccoR (Mar 21, 2014)

montelatici, P F Tinmore,  _et al,_

Question?



montelatici said:


> From UN Security Council no. 46 of 17 April 1948
> 
> 
> "Considering that, as stated in that resolution, it is of the utmost urgency to bring about the immediate cessation of acts of violence in *Palestine* and to establish conditions of peace and order in that *country*,"
> ...


*(QUESTION)*

What authority was the Government for the county cited?

*(ANSWER)*

In April 1948, it had already been established that the UK was the Government of Palestine.

I cite the same document as before:  PAL/138 27 February 1948

You can try and take it out of context all you want.  It doesn't change reality.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## aris2chat (Mar 21, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
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Because the arabs told them to.
Even those who had land appropriated for state use did not have to leave, only move to a different location provided by Israel.  Those who had engaged in or supported terrorism against Israel were force to leave.  The vast majority of refugees were made so by their fellow arabs who had also refused them a state under the UN partition.

Despite the fact Jews were being attacked and killed by arabs, Jews had issued appeals in Jan of '48 for arabs not to leave but stay and work with the jews to build a state for them to share.  It was not the desire of the jews for the palestinians to leave.  Appeals were published in Arabic and Hebrew for the palestinians to stay.  They did not have to leave, that was their choice.  Their catastrophe was of their own making, not Israel's.


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## proudveteran06 (Mar 21, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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Know when a Pro Palestinian is lying. When they open their mouth especially if they are Palestinian .  I have produced several threads about the Mass Murder of Jews throughout history and of course the Palestinian ignores them  . They could have had their " state" after WW  1. After WW 2 and certainly before 1967.


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 21, 2014)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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> > Phoenall said:
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I am not the one making the claim that they were told to leave without posting any stats.


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## toastman (Mar 21, 2014)

But you're making the claim that only a small percent were asked to leave


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 21, 2014)

toastman said:


> But you're making the claim that only a small percent were asked to leave



The person making the claim needs to prove his point.


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 21, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> 
> Just a short follow-on.
> 
> ...





> * you will no doubt notice that in this regard, the Government of that named country was the UK, and not the Palestinians.*



Britain was a foreign government appointed by foreigners, against the wishes of the people, to promote the agenda of foreigners.

*The principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples*

    By virtue of the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples enshrined in the Charter of the United Nations, all peoples have the right freely to determine, without external interference, their political status and to pursue their economic, social and cultural development, and every State has the duty to respect this right in accordance with the provisions of the Charter.

    Every State has the duty to promote, through joint and separate action, realization of the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, in accordance with the provisions of the Charter, and to render assistance to the United Nations in carrying out the responsibilities entrusted to it by the Charter regarding the implementation of the principle, in order:


To promote friendly relations and co-operation among States; and


To bring a speedy end to colonialism, having due regard to the freely expressed will of the peoples concerned;

    and bearing in mind that subjection of peoples to alien subjugation, domination and exploitation constitutes a violation of the principle, as well as a denial of fundamental human rights, and is contrary to the Charter.

    Every State has the duty to promote through joint and separate action universal respect for and observance of human rights and fundamental freedoms in accordance with the Charter.

    The establishment of a sovereign and independent State, the free association or integration with an independent State or the emergence into any other political status freely determined by a people constitute modes of implementing the right of self-determination by that people.

A/RES/25/2625 - Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations - UN Documents: Gathering a body of global agreements


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## toastman (Mar 21, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
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I read this post twice, and I fail to see how anything you posted refutes what Rocco said.
What was the point of your post


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## RoccoR (Mar 21, 2014)

P F Tinmore,  _et al,_

You have your timelines fouled-up again.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
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> > P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
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*(COMMENT)*

A/RES/25/2625 	24 October 1970 came more than 20 years after 1948 Partition.  Law cannot be applied retroactively.  This particular set of Principles can be applied to the 1988 State of Palestine.

It did not apply to the actions in the establishment of the State of Israel, as it did not exist.  

The concepts of the Charter are not in conflict with the Adopted Resolutions.  The armies of the Arab League and the Hostile Arab Palestinian (HoAP) insurgents that opposed the implementation of the Resolution of 1947, constituted a direct threat under Chapter VII - Article 51 of the Charter.  The attack represented a demonstrated threat to the peace and security of the region.

So even if A/RES/25/2625 	24 October 1970 did apply, the Arab League and HoAP violated a basic prinicle:


"Every State has the duty to refrain from the threat or use of force to violate the existing international boundaries of another State or as a means of solving international disputes, including territorial disputes and problems concerning frontiers of States." 

"Every State likewise has the duty to refrain from the threat or use of force to violate international lines of demarcation, such as armistice lines, established by or pursuant to an international agreement to which it is a party or which it is otherwise bound to respect. Nothing in the foregoing shall be construed as prejudicing the positions of the parties concerned with regard to the status and effects of such lines under their special regimes or as affecting their temporary character."

So it would also be the case that the Arab League and the HoAP were violators of the principles.

The containment of hostile entities that threaten the peace and security of a nation like Israel, which was duly constituted under the agreed upon Resolution, is not a violation of the Charter under Chapter VII.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 21, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> 
> You have your timelines fouled-up again.
> 
> ...



This was not new law. It was a clarification of existing law.

The principles of self determination were expressed in the League of Nations Covenant.


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## aris2chat (Mar 21, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
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There has to be some readiness and effort to self determination, not just a desire to have a state.  Even with a desire to self determination of a state, those within the state might have other idea and not want to be separate or can't function well on their own and prefer to part of a "greater" state.
Palestinian were not and are still not ready for their own state.  They are not of one mind or one identity, nor do they have the structure capable or running an effective state.  Just wanting it is not enough.
They have to be ready to live in peace and cooperation with their neighbors, not exterminate their neighbor.


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## Phoenall (Mar 22, 2014)

montelatici said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
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> > P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
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 Once again you ignore the facts that are self evident, that the violence is coming mainly from the Palestinians and Israel is meeting that violence with retaliation. The numbers killed or injured are of no consequence in this matter as they are a result of the Palestinians disregard for human life, it is the frequency and number of such attacks that are paramount. So as all subsequent UN resolutions say the Palestinians have to cease all acts of belligerence and violence for there to be peace.

 By the way the Palestinian people have exercised their right to free determination and claimed sovereignty over Palestine in 1988, a matter of historical fact. Just another of your ISLAMONAZI LIES laid to rest.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Mar 22, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
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[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cn4r7ZjG9Nc]A PALESTINIAN MYTH - The so said NAKBA - YouTube[/ame]


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## Phoenall (Mar 22, 2014)

montelatici said:


> toastman said:
> 
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> > montelatici said:
> ...






 NO IT DID NOT as it was a small part of a larger whole, so had no actual sovereignty of its own. If you bothered to do the research you would find that the Palestinians were given 3 nations under the mandate guided by the mandated powers of Britain and France. First was Syria that took up sovereignty followed by Lebanon  and then trans Jordan, what was left was already agreed by all parties to be for the Jews to build a new homeland. The ISLAMONAZI grand mufti decided that he did not want the Jews living in Palestine so started to enflame the arab muslims with LIES and BLOOD LIBELS so they would demand the land for themselves. If he had been removed from liberty during WW2 then Israel would have received its promised land and the Palestinians would have been happy to stay or go.

Another history lesson for the pro Palestinians who will claim it is all Zionist lies.


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## Phoenall (Mar 22, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
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 You are denying the historical facts of the issue and are coming out with falsehoods, now provide the evidence of your accusations or retract and apologise for getting it wrong.

 By the way a creditable source of evidence is required not your usual islamonazi sources.


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## Phoenall (Mar 22, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
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 Only one problem with that is the resolution was not in effect in 1920 when the arabs agreed to the mandate being set up. You really should research your subject before posting and making a complete arse of yourself.


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## Phoenall (Mar 22, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
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And when were the arab muslims rights to self determination removed, and who removed them. 
They freely exercised their determination to acquire land illegally and to remove the Jews rights to free determination in May 1948. This was against the same existing law you are citing as only being relevant to the Jews and Israel.
 They freely exercised their determination to wipe the Jews of the face of the M.E. which is a breach of the existing law you are citing.
 They freely exercised their determination to engage in terrorist attacks on Israeli children which is against the existing law you are citing. As well as being a breach of the UN charter, Geneva conventions and International law, and a crime against humanity.
 They freely exercised their determination to carry on terrorist attacks on Israel using illegal weapons that are not allowed under International Law.

 So at what time in the past 70 years have Palestinian arab muslims not been allowed to freely determine their own futures and actions ?


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 22, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Sweet_Caroline said:
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Decisive causes of abandonment of Palestinian villages and towns according to Benny Morris Decisive causes of abandonment 	Occurrences[138]

military assault on settlement 	215
influence of nearby town's fall 	59
expulsion by Jewish forces 	53
fear (of being caught up in fighting) 	48
whispering campaigns 	15
*abandonment on Arab orders 	6*
unknown 	44

Causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 22, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
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> And when were the arab muslims rights to self determination removed, and who removed them.



Right cannot be removed. They are violated usually by external interference. Palestine was born under occupation and has remained under occupation for 90 years.



> Expressing its grave concern that the Palestinian people has been prevented from enjoying its inalienable rights, in particular its right to self-determination,
> 
> Guided by the purposes and principles of the Charter,
> 
> ...


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## Phoenall (Mar 22, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
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 From your link we see :-

 ... the Arabs in Palestine were asked to stay and live as citizens in the Jewish state. Instead, they chose to leave, either because they were unwilling to live with the Jews, or because they expected an Arab military victory which would annihilate the Zionists. They thought they could leave temporarily and return at their leisure. Later, an additional claim was put forth, namely that the Palestinians were ordered to leave, with radio broadcasts instructing them to quit their homes

The document details 11 factors which caused the exodus, and lists them "in order of importance":
1.Direct, hostile Jewish [ Haganah/IDF ] operations against Arab settlements.
2.The effect of our [Haganah/IDF] hostile operations against nearby [Arab] settlements... (... especially the fall of large neighbouring centers).
3.Operation of [Jewish] dissidents [ Irgun Tzvai Leumi and Lohamei Herut Yisrael]
*4.Orders and decrees by Arab institutions and gangs [irregulars].*5.Jewish whispering operations [psychological warfare], aimed at frightening away Arab inhabitants.
6.Ultimate expulsion orders [by Jewish forces]
*7.Fear of Jewish [retaliatory] response [following] major Arab attack on Jews.*
*8.The appearance of gangs [irregular Arab forces] and non-local fighters in the vicinity of a village.*
*9.Fear of Arab invasion and its consequences [mainly near the borders].*10.Isolated Arab villages in purely [predominantly] Jewish areas.
11.Various local factors and general fear of the future.[6]

Statements by Arab leaders and organizations

 Jamal Husseini, Palestinian representative to the United Nations, wrote to the Syrian UN representative, at the end of August 1948,

 "The withdrawals were carried out pursuant to an order emanating from Amman. The withdrawal from Nazareth was ordered by Amman; the withdrawal from Safad was ordered by Amman; the withdrawal orders from Lydda and Rale are well known to you. During none of these withdrawals did fighting take place. The regular armies did not enable the inhabitants of the country to defend themselves, but merely facilitated their escape from Palestine.  

According to Yitschak Ben Gad, Mahmoud Abbas, then member of PLO Executive Committee, wrote an article "Madha `Alamna wa-Madha Yajib An Na`mal" [What We Have Learned and What We Should Do] and published it in "Falastineth-Thawra" [Revolutionary Palestine], the official journal of the PLO, Beirut, in March 26, 1976:


"The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, they abandoned them, forced them to emigrate and to leave their homeland, and threw them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live in Eastern Europe, as if we were condemned to change places with them: they moved out of their ghettos and we occupied similar ones. The Arab States succeeded in scattering the Palestinian people and in destroying their unity

 But on doing a quick check on the author of this piece what do we find but that he is a PALESTINIAN WITH AN AGENDA

User:Screen stalker - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 So not a creditable source just another ISLAMONAZI one.


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## Phoenall (Mar 22, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
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> > P F Tinmore said:
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 Yes born under ROMAN occupation and has been so for over 2,000 years, not 90 years as you claim.

 The Palestinians have never had their right to free determination violated, they have exercised it since 1947. This is why they are in the situation they face now because they have allowed outside arab muslim interference in their free determination. 

 Just as the Jews exercised their right to free determination in May 1948 when they declared Israel an independent state, then defended that state from destruction. At no time has Israel denied or violated the Palestinians right to free determination without external interference or right to national independence and sovereignty. In fact they have tried to assist them do this all the time. It can be found in such treaties as the Oslo Accords were Israel actually suggests they set up an interim governing body to be recognised as the Palestinian government until such time as a proper government can be formed.

 So you lose again by not doing the research you should, and instead blame the Jews for all Palestine's faults and fails


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## RoccoR (Mar 22, 2014)

P F Tinmore,  _et al,_

Two important points to remember.



P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Article 22, League of Nation (LoN) Covenant, is the authority under which the Mandate of Palestine derives its effective power.  And what self-determination is espoused in the LoN Covenant, is not countered by this clause.  

Again, there is a timeline mistake. General Assembly A/RES/3236 (XXIX) and UN General Assembly Resolution 3237 A/RES/3237 (XXIX) were both adopted on 22 November 1974, more than 2 decades after the Partition Plan was adopted and put into effect.  The two clause quotation reaffirms the right of the Palestinian to self-determination do not reaffirm a LoN Covenant right; and it doesn't say the Palestinian was denied that right.  In fact, the Palestinian cited, exercised the right of self-determination by:

Rejecting the offer of establishing an Arab State in Resolution 181(II) in 1948.
By Declaring Independence in November 1988, and utilizing Resolution 181(II).
A/RES/3237 says nothing more than the Palestinians can watch the processes at the UN (Observer Status).

Nothing you have cited changes the impact of the the LoN Covenant, The Palestine Order in Council, or The Mandate for Palestine.  The same people that wrote the LoN Covenant also indicated that the indigenous population (Arab Palestinian) was not ready to stand alone, in its judgment.  And, based on the call for donations again this year, the State of Palestine cannot yet stand alone.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Sweet_Caroline (Mar 22, 2014)

*Something for the ignorant here

Coordination of Government Activities in the Terri​*


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 22, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> 
> Two important points to remember.
> 
> ...



Of course they can't. They are still under 90 years of occupation.

The LoN Covenant called for the mandates to assist the people to independence. Britain violated the covenant by pushing the people aside and promoting the agenda of foreigners.


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## Phoenall (Mar 22, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
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Why do you always deny the Jews their rights to free determination, and the treaty signed by the arab leaders giving Palestine to the Jews as their homeland. The only people pushed aside were the Jews who saw their allocation promised and signed for reduced to desert and indefensible land surrounded by hostile terrorists. The only agenda promoted was that of the arab league that wanted all the land and were prepared to break signed treaties to acquire the land. 

As I said before Palestine has been under constant occupation for over 2,000 years until 1948 when it was released by the Mandate and the UN.


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## toastman (Mar 22, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
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The British did not occupy Palestine. How can you say such a ridiculous thing???


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 24, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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Surely Palestine has had more than its fair share of invasions, conquests, and occupations.

WWI was a turning point for Palestine. Palestine came into legal existence when it was separated from Turkish rule after WWI. Its land was defined by international borders. Palestinians were a nation of people distinct from their neighbors. The Palestinians were the citizens of Palestine.

The Palestinians had inalienable rights in Palestine, including:

(a) The right to self-determination without external interference;

(b) The right to national independence and sovereignty;

The only reference to foreigners is that external interference is illegal.


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## toastman (Mar 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
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How could the Palestinians have been the citizens of Palestine then when Palestinians only came into existence in the mid 60's ?


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## montelatici (Mar 24, 2014)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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> > Phoenall said:
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What the heck are you talking about.  Do some research before posting bullshit.


Palestinian Passport from 1943:

http://tinyurl.com/krgtv6r


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## ForeverYoung436 (Mar 24, 2014)

montelatici said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



If I may speak for toastman, I think he means it was not before the 1960's that the Arabs in Palestine began to talk about themselves as being a distinct people or nationality.


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 24, 2014)

toastman said:


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Can you document that?


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## Hossfly (Mar 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
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Would you believe any documentation? I think not. You've been presented with hundreds and hundreds of*official* documents and you belittle every one of them. Come up with *your* documents.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Mar 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
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See 315 on this string.


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 24, 2014)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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OK, so?

That is a document?


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## toastman (Mar 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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Just because YOU need a document, that doesn't mean that one is ACTUALLY needed to prove it. 

Also, whenever you ask for a link to prove a point someone made, and one is presented to you that says exactly what the person you are debating with claimed, you still deny things. So why do you even bother asking for links?


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## Sweet_Caroline (Mar 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
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This is.

Mandate For Palestine - The Legal Aspects of Jewish Rights

In particular the paragraph titled There Has Never Been a Sovereign Arab State in Palestine


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## montelatici (Mar 24, 2014)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
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I have been on many political forums that discuss this issue, and this one has to have the least knowledgeable and most biased (pro-Israel) posters. Possibly because it is the only American-only forum I frequent.

The Palestinians (Muslim and Christians) thought of themselves as Palestinians centuries ago.  More recently, and well before the 1960s, Palestinians held congresses throughout Palestine.  The first Palestine Arab Congress met from 27 January to 10 February 1919, with 27 delegates from Muslim-Christian societies across Palestine.

I have no clue where you bozos get the idea that Palestinians weren't Palestinians until the 1960s.  Israeli propaganda maybe?

Palestine Arab Congress - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## montelatici (Mar 24, 2014)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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So, The Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem was not a sovereign state.  The propaganda is deafening.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Mar 24, 2014)

montelatici said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
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See number 321 above and get educated.


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## montelatici (Mar 24, 2014)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> montelatici said:
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Do you really believe that anyone except brainwashed morons would use a Jewish propaganda site for obtaining facts.  Grow up punk.


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 24, 2014)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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Drawing up the framework of nationality, Article 30 of the Treaty of Lausanne stated:

Turkish subjects habitually resident in territory which in accordance with the provisions of the present Treaty is detached from Turkey will become ipso facto, in the conditions laid down by the local law, nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred.​
Genesis of Citizenship in Palestine and Israel
----------------------------------
3.Q. What measures have been taken to bring the *country* under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will safeguard the civil and religious rights of *all the inhabitants of Palestine,* irrespective of race and religion? What are the effects of these measures?

A.	The Palestinian Citizenship Order in Council which was made in August, 1925, *provides for the acquisition of Palestinian citizenship by persons habitually resident in the country who were Ottoman subjects,* and persons who were foreign subjects and take up permanent residence.

- See more at: Mandate for Palestine - Report of the Mandatory to the League of Nations (31 December 1925)


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## Sweet_Caroline (Mar 24, 2014)

montelatici said:


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Oh I have more links.  How about this?


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## toastman (Mar 24, 2014)

Tinmore, does any of that refute what I said?


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## Sweet_Caroline (Mar 24, 2014)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> montelatici said:
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And this


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 24, 2014)

toastman said:


> Tinmore, does any of that refute what I said?



Which "what I said" are you talking about?


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## montelatici (Mar 24, 2014)

Sweet_Caroline said:


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So the fact that Palestinians considered themselves Palestinians and held congresses as Palestinians as early as 1919 does not matter to you.  To you the bullshit you have been fed trumps the truth and facts.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Mar 24, 2014)

montelatici said:


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The Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem was not a Sovereign Arab State.  Since when were the European Christian Crusaders known as Arabs?


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## RoccoR (Mar 24, 2014)

montelatici,  _et al,_

I think there is a misunderstanding as to the meaning and intention of the descriptor: "Palestinian."  

The resolutions of the Jerusalem Congress were:

Palestine should be part of Arab Syria
Rejection of French proposals for the area
No foreign influence
All foreign treaties referring to the area were voided
To maintain friendly relations with Britain and the Allied powers, accepting help if it did not affect the country's independence

The original Arab Palestinian that you are referring to thought of themselves as part of the Ottoman State of Syria, which was not unreasonable.  This is exactly how the Ottoman Empire thought of the territory.  _(I mentioned this before, in our talks a to why the Treaty of Lausanne never mentions "Palestine."  But it did not make an impression.)_



montelatici said:


> I have been on many political forums that discuss this issue, and this one has to have the least knowledgeable and most biased (pro-Israel) posters. Possibly because it is the only American-only forum I frequent.
> 
> The Palestinians (Muslim and Christians) thought of themselves as Palestinians centuries ago.  More recently, and well before the 1960s, Palestinians held congresses throughout Palestine.  The first Palestine Arab Congress met from 27 January to 10 February 1919, with 27 delegates from Muslim-Christian societies across Palestine.
> 
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Using your source _(supra)_, you will no doubt note that it says:  _"The Congress rejected political Zionism, agreeing to accept British assistance if it did not impinge on Arab sovereignty in Palestine. Palestine was envisaged as part of an independent Syrian state, governed by Faisal of the Hashemite family."_

While the Palestine Arab Congress attempted to establish a firm political base, it was not interested in a Palestinian Government; but rather, a Hashemite Government _(similar to that of Trans-Jordan)_.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Sweet_Caroline (Mar 24, 2014)

montelatici said:


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Wow, you certainly have problems absorbing facts.


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## Roudy (Mar 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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Big elephant in the room Tinmore avoids is Arabs never considered themselves Palestinians. The term referred to Jews only until Arafat decided to hijack the name in the 60's. Like I said before the Arabs were offered their Muslim state state in Jordan, they refused and instead attacked the Jewish Palestine aka Israel. This conflict is about Arab Muslim intolerance and hatred of others.  It has always been.


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## Roudy (Mar 24, 2014)

Sweet_Caroline said:


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To be a die hard Palestinian Hamas supporter, a certain level of denial and mental illness is a requirement.


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## Roudy (Mar 24, 2014)

*Let us hear what other Arabs have said:*

"There is no such country as Palestine. 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented. There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria. 'Palestine' is alien to us. It is the Zionists who introduced it".
- Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, Syrian Arab leader to British Peel Commission, 1937 -

"There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not".
- Professor Philip Hitti, Arab historian, 1946 -

"It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but Southern Syria".
- Representant of Saudi Arabia at the United Nations, 1956 -

Concerning the Holy Land, the chairman of the Syrian Delegation at the Paris Peace Conference in February 1919 stated:
"The only Arab domination since the Conquest in 635 c.e. hardly lasted, as such, 22 years".


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## Roudy (Mar 24, 2014)

*What other Arabs declared after the Six-Day War:*

Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian?
We did not particularly mind Jordanian rule. The teaching of the destruction of Israel was a definite part of the curriculum, but we considered ourselves Jordanian until the Jews returned to Jerusalem. Then all of the sudden we were Palestinians - they removed the star from the Jordanian flag and all at once we had a Palestinian flag.
When I finally realized the lies and myths I was taught, it is my duty as a righteous person to speak out.

-Former PLO terrorist

"There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity... yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel".

- Zuhair Muhsin, military commander of the PLO and member of the PLO Executive Council -

"You do not represent Palestine as much as we do. Never forget this one point: There is no such thing as a Palestinian people, there is no Palestinian entity, there is only Syria. You are an integral part of the Syrian people, Palestine is an integral part of Syria. Therefore it is we, the Syrian authorities, who are the true representatives of the Palestinian people".

- Syrian dictator Hafez Assad to the PLO leader Yassir Arafat -

"As I lived in Palestine, everyone I knew could trace their heritage back to the original country their great grandparents came from. Everyone knew their origin was not from the Canaanites, but ironically, this is the kind of stuff our education in the Middle East included. The fact is that today's Palestinians are immigrants from the surrounding nations! I grew up well knowing the history and origins of today's Palestinians as being from Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Christians from Greece, muslim Sherkas from Russia, muslims from Bosnia, and the Jordanians next door. My grandfather, who was a dignitary in Bethlehem, almost lost his life by Abdul Qader Al-Husseni (the leader of the Palestinian revolution) after being accused of selling land to Jews. He used to tell us that his village Beit Sahur (The Shepherds Fields) in Bethlehem County was empty before his father settled in the area with six other families. The town has now grown to 30,000 inhabitants".


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 24, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> montelatici,  _et al,_
> 
> I think there is a misunderstanding as to the meaning and intention of the descriptor: "Palestinian."
> 
> ...





> The resolutions of the Jerusalem Congress were:
> 
> Palestine should be part of Arab Syria
> Rejection of French proposals for the area
> ...



They may have had a different vision for the future but they did firmly reject illegal foreign interference.

As did the Palestinians in general.


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## toastman (Mar 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
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They also rejected sovereignty, independence and freedom


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## Phoenall (Mar 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
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 Palestine did not come into existence after WW1 it had been in existence as an area for 2000 years
 The land of greater Palestine yes that includes what is now Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and trans Jordan
 The arabs of Palestine were indistinguishable from their neighbours because that is were they originally came from
 The majority of Palestinians were recent migrants, this is proven by the fact they changed the rules to accommodate the recent arrivals. 

The exercised their right to self determination when they refused the offer of a nation in 1948. The only outside interference came from the arab league who invaded the land and tried to wipe out the Jews.


 Unless you have an unbiased account that says differently of course, not the usual Palestinian one that adds details to existing treaties because he thinks they should be part of the treaty.


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 24, 2014)

toastman said:


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They rejected *foreigner's version* of sovereignty, independence and freedom.


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## Phoenall (Mar 24, 2014)

montelatici said:


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 Only one problem IT IS A BRITISH PASSPORT as shown by the details on the left and the word BRITISH in the centre of the right hand page.

 Another massive fail because yiu don't read what you post in the first place. You have just shown that Palestine was still mandated in 1943 and this person could have come from Syria or trans Jordan


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## Phoenall (Mar 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
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Very easily 

 The arabs who lived in Palestine "understood" they were "palestinians" only after the war of 1967. Before that, Judea and Samaria, together with Jerusalem, were occupied by Jordan, and Gaza was occupied by Egypt- but not a single arab thought of himself as of a "palestinian". 
When did the Arabs start calling themselves Palestinians?

 Founded in 1964, the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) is an umbrella organization for groups that represent the Palestinian people before the international community.[35] The Palestinian National Authority, officially established as a result of the Oslo Accords, is an interim administrative body nominally responsible for governance in Palestinian population centers in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.[36] Since 1978, the United Nations has observed an annual International Day of Solidarity with the Palestinian People.
Palestinian people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Indeependent (Mar 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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So after hundreds of postings where you require international recognition of Israel and "Palestine", you have dismissed that requirement with THIS post.


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 24, 2014)

Phoenall said:


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Direct quotes from original sources.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/israe...ised-67-lines-e-jerusalem-22.html#post8823053


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 24, 2014)

Indeependent said:


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## Phoenall (Mar 24, 2014)

montelatici said:


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 Did you do the research into this article to verify its neutrality, I did and found that the author is pro Palestinian and a supporter of racist attacks on the Jews

 Useradres Hana

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 

Jump to: navigation, search 




Lord Balfour's childhood home.JPG
This user supports BDS. 








Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for 2013

Palestinian prisoners end hunger strike as agreement reached with Israeli officials Israel News | Haaretz

Palestinian costumes

Useradres Hana - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


 Another massive fail because of sloppy work.


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## Phoenall (Mar 24, 2014)

montelatici said:


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 Who was its ruler, where was its capital city, what was its currency and finally who was its GOD.    These are all indications of a sovereign state and if they are missing then there was no sovereign state.

 Yes your pro Palestinian terrorist propaganda is deafening


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## montelatici (Mar 24, 2014)

Phoenall said:


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So, Hong Kong did not exist because the people of Hong Kong had British written on their passports (along with Hong Kong), or New Zealanders do not exist because their passports had the word British on them.  Talk about "massive fail", to use your juvenile terminology. 

https://tinyurl.com/lgtcyjq

https://tinyurl.com/kqd8o5s


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## Phoenall (Mar 24, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
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 proof that it is a Jewish propaganda site as your word alone is worthless.


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## montelatici (Mar 24, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> montelatici said:
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So, Hong Kong did not exist because the people of Hong Kong had British written on their passports (along with Hong Kong), or New Zealanders do not exist because their passports had the word British on them.  Talk about "massive fail", to use your juvenile terminology. 

https://tinyurl.com/lgtcyjq

https://tinyurl.com/kqd8o5s


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## Phoenall (Mar 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
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 Correct and this dealt with the nations of Lebaqnon, Syria, Iraq and trans Jordan. Leaving what you refer to as Palestine to take on British citizenship temporarily.

 Correct and the title of British citizen of Palestine came into being. 

 There was no sovereign nation of Palestine until one was created in 1988, before that time it was Judea and Samaria.


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## montelatici (Mar 24, 2014)

Phoenall said:


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This is getting even funnier.  You folks are truly twats.  Do you really believe that that site is not a Jewish propaganda site or are you joking?


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## MrMax (Mar 24, 2014)

Too bad Obama has no power to offer anything except maybe a surrender of his own presidency.


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## Phoenall (Mar 24, 2014)

montelatici said:


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 In reality they did not see themselves as a separate entity but part of Syria

Palestinian people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 The historical record continued to reveal an interplay between "Arab" and "Palestinian" identities and nationalism. The idea of a unique Palestinian state separated out from its Arab neighbors was at first rejected by Palestinian representatives. The First Congress of Muslim-Christian Associations (in Jerusalem, February 1919), which met for the purpose of selecting a Palestinian Arab representative for the Paris Peace Conference, adopted the following resolution: "*We consider Palestine as part of Arab Syria, as it has never been separated from it at any time*. We are connected with it by national, religious, linguistic, natural, economic and geographical bonds


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## montelatici (Mar 24, 2014)

Phoenall said:


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The ignorance on this forum is deafening.  You mean to tell me you are so brainwashed that you didn't know of a kingdom that existed in Palestine for more than a century and yet you make ridiculous attempts at demonstrating some knowledge of the subject?

To your question.

The Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem had several kings, it was a kingdom after all.:


Kings of the Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem:

 - 	11001118	Baldwin I
 - 	11181131	Baldwin II
 - 	11311152	Melisende
- with Fulk 11311143
 - 	1143-1152-1162	Baldwin III
 - 	11621174	Amalric I
 - 	11741185	Baldwin IV
 - 	1185-1186	Baldwin V
 - 	11861192	Guy I
 - 	1192	Conrad I

The currency can be seen here:








Roman Catholicism was the official religion, so it was the God of the Roman Catholics that held sway in the Latin Kingdom.


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## Phoenall (Mar 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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 And the only documented illegal foreign interference was that of the arab league


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## Indeependent (Mar 24, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Phoenall said:
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He explicitly stated Arab, implying Muslim, NOT Catholic.


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## montelatici (Mar 24, 2014)

Phoenall said:


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When France was given the mandate for Syria and the UK for Palestine, that ended any chance of Syria absorbing Palestine into Syria.  By the way, Lebanon was also historically part of Syria, it was split off to maintain a Christian plurality.  The fact is, Palestinians existed since Roman times, thru the Middle Ages (Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem) and through modern times.  An attempt to deligitimize the Christians and Muslims of Palestine may play well in front of a brainwashed American audience, but is just plain bullshit as seen by the rest of the world.


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## Phoenall (Mar 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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 Which proves they exercised free determination to the full, so they accepted "foriegners versions" of sovereignty, independence and freedom.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Mar 24, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> montelatici said:
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monte will reply that there are some Arab Christians (like in Lebanon).  But everyone knows the Christian Crusaders were from Europe.


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## Indeependent (Mar 24, 2014)

montelatici said:


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Yes, we see how anxious the Christians were, post WWII, to live amongst the uncivilized animals called Muslims.


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## Phoenall (Mar 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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 Just your interpretation and not facts, the real facts are that the Palestine in your post includes Lebanon, Iraq, Syria and trans Jordan. This was so the mandate could give land for the nations mentioned but keep them under British governorship until such a tame as they were able to function as an entity.    

 Find a Palestinian passport issued before 1968 that does not have British printed all over it.

 So once again you fail because you spin your own personal views on the details without taking in the full picture.


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## montelatici (Mar 24, 2014)

Indeependent said:


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How does "Arab" imply Muslim?  There are plenty of Catholic/Christian Arabs, there were many more before the European Jews drove most of them out.   Local Christians were the ruling class in Palestine during the Latin Kingdom's era.  These continued attempts  deligitimize the Palestinians are annoying.  In any case, it looks like Christian Evangelicals are starting side with their Christian peers in Palestine.

"Christian Support for 'Palestinian Cause' Ascendant.....An interview with an American Christian commentator published by Israeli media this week reveals just how far the Evangelical Church has moved into the "Palestinian camp" when it comes to the Middle East conflict."

Christian Support for 'Palestinian Cause' Ascendant - Israel Today | Israel News


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## Indeependent (Mar 24, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Indeependent said:
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Yes, we see how well the Christian Arabs have been faring since Yassar Arafat and his murderers ran amok.
Are you in your twenties?


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## Phoenall (Mar 24, 2014)

montelatici said:


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 Wrong again as Hong Kong is part of China and New Zealand issues passports in its own right. But the "palestinian" passports during the mandate period are those of Brutish citizens of the mandate of Palestine. They were never issued by the Palestinian government as it did not exist, nor did any nation of Palestine until 1988. Before this Palestine was always occupied land by one group or another.


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## montelatici (Mar 24, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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## montelatici (Mar 24, 2014)

By the way, I never fail.  I do make you educationally unprepared lot look like amateurs though.


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## Phoenall (Mar 24, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Phoenall said:
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 Then this means you have failed to show that it is a Jewish propaganda site, and just threw that in to stir up the water. I TAKE IT YOU RESEARCHED THIS SITE THOROUGHLY AND IN DEPTH  ?


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## Phoenall (Mar 24, 2014)

montelatici said:


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 LINK as I believe they were commanders and not actual Kings.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Mar 24, 2014)

Phoenall said:


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They were kings.  You're playing right into his hands.


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## montelatici (Mar 24, 2014)

Phoenall said:


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Why do you want to make a fool of yourself?  Of course Dominion of New Zealand passports had British on them.  So did Hong Kong passports.  So did many others.  The fact that these passports had British on them did not negate that New Zealanders were a people.


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## Sally (Mar 24, 2014)

Phoenall said:


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Phoenall, I have to laugh at montelatici calling someone a punk.  It reminds me of a young arrogant woman (possibly a Muslim herself) who thinks she knows it all; and since she is calling posters twats, perhaps she is one of those Muslims in England.  Meanwhile, while she is attempting to show large Evangelical support for the Palestinians, there are still millions of American Evangelicals who still support Israel.  By the way, have you ever seen montelatici on any other forums condemning what her Muslim buddies are doing to the Christians not only in the Middle East, but also Africa and Southeast Asia.   Anyhow, the following is a site from the International Christian Embassy in Jerusalem who seems quite aware of what is happening to their fellow Christians.

Christians in Israel to EU: "Stop Christian Ethnic Cleansing in Arab Countries" | Breaking Israel News


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## natstew (Mar 24, 2014)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Indeependent said:
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Jesus, 'Christ' was a Jew. His followers were also Jews and the first Christians. Christians have existed in 'The Promised Land' since the first followers of Jesus.


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## Roudy (Mar 24, 2014)

montelatici said:


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Hong Kong are Chinese.  Doh!


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## montelatici (Mar 24, 2014)

Sweet_Caroline said:


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Talk about nutcases.  Zionist claims that Palestinians don't exist are so old school that even the most fervent Zionists don't use that tack anymore.


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## montelatici (Mar 24, 2014)

Roudy said:


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Hong Kong passports had British on them until 1997, dummy.


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## Sally (Mar 24, 2014)

natstew said:


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Let us not forget that these original Christians also lived in other parts of the Middle East, such as Iraq, Egypt, Syria -- and when the Muslims left the Saudi Peninsula to invade these countries, they forced many of these Christians to convert and killed many who refused.  The descendents of these original Christians who were lucky enough to survive the Muslim onslaught can't even practice their religion in peace these days.  By the way, let us not forget that the Greek Orthodox priest in Israel said that the Christians are not Arabs.  He named another group which these Christians belong to because as he stated, the Christians were there way before the Arabs.


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## toastman (Mar 24, 2014)

montelatici said:


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No one says they don't exist. We are just providing all the evidence that suggest they are a made up people, which they are.

Your reading comprehension skills are brutal. Did you finish high school?


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## Phoenall (Mar 24, 2014)

montelatici said:


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 Try again as France was also given the mandate for Palestine not Syria. Yes the area of Palestine did exist from the Roman conquest and included all of the above named nations, part of Saudi and part of Egypt. BUT IT WAS NEVER A SOVEREIGN STATE. The only people delegitimising the Christians are the arab muslims by keeping them under laws of DHIMMA. The muslims don't need any help in delegitimising themselves as they are doing a far better job than anyone else can. When you understand that before the mandate Palestine was a far latger part of the ME than it is now you might see your errors.

 By the rest of the world I take it you mean the Islamic world


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## montelatici (Mar 24, 2014)

There were very few Arabs from the Arabian Peninsula (who were the officer corps) in the conquering "Arab hordes".  The hordes were largely Christian (and some Jewish) converts, as the religion of the people in the areas conquered by the "Arabs"  in the Middle East and North Africa was mostly the state religion of Byzantium (Greek Orthodox).


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## Phoenall (Mar 24, 2014)

montelatici said:


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## Phoenall (Mar 24, 2014)

montelatici said:


> By the way, I never fail.  I do make you educationally unprepared lot look like amateurs though.





 Every time you use a pro Palestinian or anti Israeli source you fail, could be that you are a rank amateur


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## Phoenall (Mar 24, 2014)

ForeverYoung436 said:


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 Watch and see him squirm


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## montelatici (Mar 24, 2014)

toastman said:


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So, now the deligitimizing of the Palestinians continues by claiming they are a "made up people".  Exactly what does that mean?  Does it mean that they did not exist and magically they appeared after the creation of Israel.  Does it mean that no Christians or Muslims lived in Palestine before the European Jews settled there.

I am not sure what this "made up people" thing means.  Since I did not graduate from high school, please explain it in simple terms.  And, you might include what you feel the consequences of being a "made up" people are. Does that mean they do not have any rights, because they are "made up " people?  Does it make it ok for these "made up" people to be oppressed, murdered separated and otherwise mistreated by the Jews?

Come on let's hear what you have to say genius.


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## Phoenall (Mar 24, 2014)

montelatici said:


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 Yes a BRITISH PEOPLE, just as the so called Palestinians were British people


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## montelatici (Mar 24, 2014)

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You have a vivid imagination for being such a dunce.  Commanders indeed.


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## Phoenall (Mar 24, 2014)

montelatici said:


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 Correct showing that Hong Kong was not a nation, nor is it today as it is part of China. You see Britain rented Hong Kong from China and in 1997 the lease was up. Now Hong Kong passports have China on them.


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## montelatici (Mar 24, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> montelatici said:
> 
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> > Phoenall said:
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Oh, I see there were no New Zealanders  whilst their passports had British (and Dominion of New Zealand) on them and when British was removed they became New Zealanders.  Interesting. You are a genius and are doing your handlers proud. Sure put me in my place.


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## Phoenall (Mar 24, 2014)

montelatici said:


> There were very few Arabs from the Arabian Peninsula (who were the officer corps) in the conquering "Arab hordes".  The hordes were largely Christian (and some Jewish) converts, as the religion of the people in the areas conquered by the "Arabs"  in the Middle East and North Africa was mostly the state religion of Byzantium (Greek Orthodox).






 Read the laws of dhimma and you will see that no non muslims will be allowed to bear arms OR BE PART OF ANY ISLAMIC ARMY. So were ever you gleaned this from is LYING LIKE A CHEAP RUG


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## montelatici (Mar 24, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
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So, what's your point to the question of whether Palestinians existed as a people before the 1960s?  Are you going to say that the people of Hong Kong did not exist while Britain ruled Hong Kong?  Or New Zealanders until British was removed from their passports?


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## montelatici (Mar 24, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > There were very few Arabs from the Arabian Peninsula (who were the officer corps) in the conquering "Arab hordes".  The hordes were largely Christian (and some Jewish) converts, as the religion of the people in the areas conquered by the "Arabs"  in the Middle East and North Africa was mostly the state religion of Byzantium (Greek Orthodox).
> ...



That's why they converted to Islam, as I stated.  Do you have a reading comprehension problem or just don't know what religious "conversion" means?


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## MrMax (Mar 24, 2014)

I suggest Abbas surrender, he's as useful 3 legged camel.


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## Sally (Mar 24, 2014)

toastman said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Sweet_Caroline said:
> ...



It's a shame that she wasn't able to go with Arafat to Russia when he was told to call these Arabs "Palestinians."  However, I don't think she was even born then.  Those in the State Department like this former poster who said the following must have had a good laugh over this.

Sure there was a Palestine. It was invented in the 1960s in a conference room at 1 Lubyanka, Dzershinsky Place, Red Square, Moscow, CCCP. It came complete with a "Palestinian people" too. In fact, its legacy leader was trained east of Moscow at the legendary Balashikha special-ops school.


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## Phoenall (Mar 24, 2014)

montelatici said:


> toastman said:
> 
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> > montelatici said:
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For nigh on 2,000 years the only Palestinians were the Jews, after 635 C.E. the muslims came on the scene and turned the term into a term of obscenity. Right up until Arafat decided that the arab muslims needed a title to legitimise their claims they still used the term as an obscenity to describe the Jews. Much as they do today with the term Zionist. Now the term is used by other arab muslims as an obscenity to describe the muslim mongrels that live in gaza and west bank. 

 Does the murder, oppression, rape and brutal beatings of the Jews not count against the arab muslims and mollify the LESS barbaric and brutal treatment of the arab muslims at the hands of Jews


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## Sally (Mar 24, 2014)

montelatici said:


> There were very few Arabs from the Arabian Peninsula (who were the officer corps) in the conquering "Arab hordes".  The hordes were largely Christian (and some Jewish) converts, as the religion of the people in the areas conquered by the "Arabs"  in the Middle East and North Africa was mostly the state religion of Byzantium (Greek Orthodox).



Anyone viewing the Icons of the Holy Land from the 2nd to the 4th century lent by St. Catherine's Church in the Sinai and which were exhibited in the U.S.  could discern that the original Christians in the area were very devout Christians.  They certainly didn't raise their hands saying they wanted to be Muslims when the Muslims invaded them. 

History of Jihad against the Egyptian Coptic Christians (640)


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## Sally (Mar 24, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> montelatici said:
> 
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> > toastman said:
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I think we are getting the "Palestine" view of history from her.  After all, she doesn't seem to have any concern for all those innocent people being harassed and murdered in the other countries of the Middle East as well as Africa and Southeast Asia.  Maybe the murder of Christians, Buddhists, Hindus and Muslims of different sects don't matter to her, and like a good "Palestinian" she only wants to concentrate on the one little area of the world which is governed by Jews.  This has to stick in the craw of any "Palestinian."  You can't be fooled by the screen name that some posters choose.


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## aris2chat (Mar 24, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Phoenall said:
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Lebanon was autonomous under the ottoman empire.


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## aris2chat (Mar 24, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
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> > Phoenall said:
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The was Assad's dream of a greater Syria.  ISIS also wants a greater arab state.


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## aris2chat (Mar 24, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> montelatici said:
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## aris2chat (Mar 24, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Phoenall said:
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It has only bee two months since they stop issuing the UK passports, however they still have to apply to the UK for a passport, the new passport.  The UK passports are still valid till they expire.  They are still citizens of the British empire.


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## Roudy (Mar 24, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
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And that means people from hing King aren't Chinese. 

Wow, you so smart.


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## Roudy (Mar 24, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
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You aren't paying attention. We are talking about Arab Muslims. When and where did they become Palestinians.


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## MrMax (Mar 24, 2014)

Roudy said:


> montelatici said:
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When Jordan abandoned their former arab citizens?


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## Roudy (Mar 24, 2014)

MrMax said:


> Roudy said:
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Correct.  Jordan and Egypt.


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## TommyBoy (Mar 24, 2014)

Hello to all


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## Roudy (Mar 24, 2014)

TommyBoy said:


> Hello to all


Hello


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## montelatici (Mar 24, 2014)

Roudy said:


> MrMax said:
> 
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> > Roudy said:
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Muslim Arabs were a large minority in Jerusalem during the Latin Kingdom and may have been equal in number to the Christian Arabs in the Kingdom overall.  So claiming that the Muslim Arabs are newcomers to Palestine is just silly. 

"The majority of the kingdom's inhabitants were native Christians, especially Greek and Syrian Orthodox, as well as Sunni and Shi'a Muslims. There were also a small number of Jews and Samaritans. The native Christians and Muslims, who were a marginalized lower class, tended to speak Greek and Arabic, while the crusaders spoke Latin, French, and other Western European languages."

Kingdom of Jerusalem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Roudy (Mar 24, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
> 
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Baloney. The land was part of the Ottoman Empire for the last 600 years. The Arabs didn't own jack.  The Ottoman Empire was divided into many Muslim shitholes and one Jewish state.  Greedy savage Arabs didn't want any of it, and we are where we are today. Jerusalem will always be the eternal capital of the Jewish state.  Arabs can have Mecca and Medina, another city Arabs massacred Jews and committed ethnic cleansing. 

Now tell us again, how did Arabs become victorious in 1967?  Ha ha.


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## toastman (Mar 24, 2014)

Roudy said:


> montelatici said:
> 
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Arabs victorious in 1967, what????


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## aris2chat (Mar 24, 2014)

toastman said:


> Roudy said:
> 
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> > montelatici said:
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and Israel was still using PA-18 with a copilot dropping grenades and firing a machine gun from the open window.  To me that was hilarious and magnificent.  Egypt had vampires and migs.
Israel was outnumbered 3 to 1.
One hell of a smack down.


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## toastman (Mar 24, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> toastman said:
> 
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Damn right. 
I could only imagine how embarresing it was for Egypts government.


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## aris2chat (Mar 24, 2014)

toastman said:


> aris2chat said:
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They ran and left most of their tanks and equipment behind in the Sinai.


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## toastman (Mar 24, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> toastman said:
> 
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Haha ya I saw pictures of that. 

I read about how the airforce commanders would make the pilots practice their sorties over and over and over until they were able to do it in very little time.


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## Roudy (Mar 25, 2014)

toastman said:


> Roudy said:
> 
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> > montelatici said:
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He's about to tell us about Arab victory in 67.  Let's give him the floor.


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## toastman (Mar 25, 2014)

This should be interesting


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## Phoenall (Mar 25, 2014)

aris2chat said:


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## Phoenall (Mar 25, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
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Keep trying, and while you are at it look to the meaning of minority. The largest minority at that time in Jerusalem was the Jews followed by the muslims and lastly the arab Christians. The majority were Roman Catholics from Europe, the Crusaders as they were called, and Pilgrims from Europe. This is were Mohamed got his idea for the hajj from the many Christian pilgrims entering the Holy Land to visit the scenes of many of Jesus's miracles and to walk were he walked.


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## MrMax (Mar 25, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> montelatici said:
> 
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Mohammed was a plagiarist who wiped his ass with an uneven number of rocks and banged a 9 year old, which his more likely where he got the idea for the hajj, sorta like an Arab Cub Scout meeting in the desert.


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## montelatici (Mar 25, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> montelatici said:
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## montelatici (Mar 25, 2014)

toastman said:


> Roudy said:
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Making up shit I see. There was no Jewish state and hardly any Jews in Palestine from the Roman/Byzantine era through the Ottoman rule.

As far as Arabs being victorious in 1967, I don't know what you are talking about.


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## MrMax (Mar 25, 2014)

Obama promised them the '67 borders of Jordan, they should go there quickly, Israel would probably support the action.


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## RoccoR (Mar 25, 2014)

P F Tinmore, _et al,_

Before you get to "foreign interference" you have to determine what is "foreign."  And that depends on territorial control.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici,  _et al,_
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

The territorial control was clearly remanded to the Allied Powers.  The Sovereign Power (The Ottoman/Turks) gave up the territory to the Allied Powers.  It was then up to the Allied Powers to determine who was "foreign interference."

The Arab Palestinian couldn't even determine if they were Syrian or what!  Let alone determine who was a foreign interference.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## toastman (Mar 25, 2014)

montelatici said:


> toastman said:
> 
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> > Roudy said:
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Lol what?? Not very good at reading comprehension I see???


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## toastman (Mar 25, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore, _et al,_
> 
> Before you get to "foreign interference" you have to determine what is "foreign."  And that depends on territorial control.
> 
> ...



Rocco, Tinmore's position on Palestine is that it has been under occupation for 90 years, which means he consider that the British Mandate was a form of occupation.


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## montelatici (Mar 25, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore, _et al,_
> 
> Before you get to "foreign interference" you have to determine what is "foreign."  And that depends on territorial control.
> 
> ...



So, in your racist mind, the Arab Palestinian was so uncivilized and unsophisticated that he/she could not determine what he was.  Sheesh, on other forums you would have been booted long ago.


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## toastman (Mar 25, 2014)

montelatici said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore, _et al,_
> ...



Lol at calling Rocck racist!!!! 
Tell us , who is he racist against, and what did he say that would get him booted??
What did he say that you disagree with??

Even when Rocco posts politely, you insult him, which shows you can't handle the truth.


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## montelatici (Mar 25, 2014)

toastman said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



Claiming that Arab Palestinians were unable to determine what they were adds to the myth that the indigenous people were uncivilized  savages.  This not only untrue, it is a typical racist ploy.  Europeans used this same ploy to rationalize the ethnic cleansing and genocide of the native americans.


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## toastman (Mar 25, 2014)

montelatici said:


> toastman said:
> 
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> > montelatici said:
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That's the way YOU interpreted it. All he said was they couldn't determine if they were Syrian or not.


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## RoccoR (Mar 25, 2014)

toastman, _et al,_

Yes, this is a commonly held view by several factions of Palestinian.



toastman said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore, _et al,_
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

The Mandate is derivative authority under Article 22 of the League of Nations Covenant.  It is a tool used by the Allied Powers to give form to the Covenant.

Clearly, the character and moral turpitude we see today indicates that the Allied Powers were correct in the original assessment.  The stage of the development of the people we see today demonstrates how under developed the Arab Palestinian was then, and how much worse it would have been if they had been immediately given recognized and independence.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## RoccoR (Mar 25, 2014)

montelatici,  _et al,_

I don't believe that I mentioned "race."



montelatici said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore, _et al,_
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

No, looking back, I don't believe I pulled the "race card."


I believe I mentioned the capacity to make that determination, based on the Syke-Picot Agreement (1916) which trumps the wishes of the enemy population in the Ottoman Empire. 

I believe that Article 22, of the League of Nations Covenant, indicated that they were not yet able to stand alone; needing a measure of advice and assistance.  The Mandate signified a transition from military occupation to civil administration.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Roudy (Mar 25, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
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## Roudy (Mar 25, 2014)

montelatici said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
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Get over it. Even the Arabs considered the name "Palestinian" an insult because it referred to the Jews only.  More baloney from the phony. Ha ha ha.


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## Roudy (Mar 25, 2014)

toastman said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


Like I said these terrorist apologists sure know how to squeal and whine a lot when stuck in their own BS. LOL


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## aris2chat (Mar 25, 2014)

toastman said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
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A legend grew up that they ran and left their shoes.  The tanks and equipment though is true.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Mar 25, 2014)

Roudy said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
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Yes, they don't have a leg to stand on, and sneak off with their tail between their legs.  In other words they are sick animals.


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## montelatici (Mar 25, 2014)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
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One can observe how these brainwashed sock puppets pat each other harder on the back the more bullshit they exchange among themselves.  In any case, the denigration of people being oppressed by the oppressor is standard operating procedure.  It was used by the Germans vis-a-vis the Jews (and Gypsies, homosexuals etc.) to create an environment that facilitates the mistreatment and by extension murder of the people being oppressed.  The way Rocco, as the ring leader, and his racist followers refer to Arabs and the Palestinian Arabs typical of racists.  As I said, not many political forums would stand for it.  This forum, or should I say this section, is most similar to Stormfront, the difference being that on Stormfront both Jews and non-whites are treated as most of you sock puppets treat the Arab Christians and Muslims.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Mar 25, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
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You, in your hate for the Jews and Israel, have been brainwashed in the lies against Israel.  Not your fault of course, but you have just been reading the wrong news items and on the wrong forums.  Stick around, you will learn lots here.


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## Sally (Mar 25, 2014)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Sweet_Caroline said:
> ...



You know how you can tell these phonies -- when they are just obsessed with one little area of the world because the Jews are involved and couldn't care less what is happening to other people, such as in the rest of the Middle East, Southeast Asia, and Africa.  Thousands of people have been murdered because of their religious beliefs, and little Miss Phony Baloney closes her eyes to this.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Mar 25, 2014)

Sally said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
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> > montelatici said:
> ...


Of course.  They just need to simply be shown the truth.


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## Sally (Mar 25, 2014)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> Sally said:
> 
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The problem is that they close their eyes to the truth.  Maybe they think all those dead bodies piling up in the Middle East and elsewhere as a result of their buddies' actions are all a fake, just like the Pallywood Productions of their friends.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Mar 25, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
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monte, haven't you heard of Palestinians bombing cafes and busses?


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## Sweet_Caroline (Mar 25, 2014)

Sally said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> > Sally said:
> ...



Well yes.  I mean montelatici right from day one has only posted against Israel.  Makes one wonder, eh.....?


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## montelatici (Mar 25, 2014)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> Sally said:
> 
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You only post anti-Arab content, makes one wonder.


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## montelatici (Mar 25, 2014)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> montelatici said:
> 
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> > Sweet_Caroline said:
> ...



Haven't you heard that the Israelis bomb apartment buildings killing several families at a time. It has nothing to do with the racism issue.  The South African blacks and coloureds bombed buses and shopping centers killing hundreds of whites.  That's what happens when people are oppressed, they lash out.


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## Sally (Mar 25, 2014)

montelatici said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
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Are you dragging up that one incident that has been dragged up numerous times before when people in Syria are being bombed every day.  Evidently the 140,000 people killed so far in Syria in the last three years means nothing to you because you can't blame the Jews.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Mar 25, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> > Sally said:
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Oh really?  Tell me more.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Mar 25, 2014)

montelatici said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
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If anyone is oppressed it is the Jews in their own land.  They warn and warn against the continued attacks, then retaliate long after they should have done.  The Hamas think the Israelis are a pushover and to my mind the Israelis are far too slow in retaliating.  When they do they pre-warn the Gazans, then pin-point targeting.  Hamas admit to using human shields and also admit there is no occupation in Gaza.  You are obviously supporting the wrong side.


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## Sally (Mar 25, 2014)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> montelatici said:
> 
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> > Sweet_Caroline said:
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I am beginning to wonder, since someone has been basically quite, if this is another one of the Iranian gang who just loves to diss Israel and the Jews  Say, Caroline, has you ever seen her posting on another forum condemning what is happening to innocent people in other places?  I certainly haven't.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Mar 25, 2014)

Sally said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
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> > montelatici said:
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Like I said, right from day one he/she went straight into anti-Israel tirades according to the previous posts.  No worries though.  

We wipe the floor with these haters, and it is laughable the way they twist, turn, ignore history and show their hates and lies against Jews and Israel.  

And the idiotic thing is they keep on and on and on.  They don't realize they are making their views a laughing stock.


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 25, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> aris2chat said:
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## montelatici (Mar 25, 2014)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> Sally said:
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Don't kid yourselves, on a serious international political forum, your absurd positions clearly a result of brainwashing and conditioning in America, would be ridiculed.  You folks need to get out and learn.  Patting each other on the back repeating lies you have been fed does not make for intellectual growth.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Mar 25, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
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Like I said, you are new here.  Stick around and you will get educated on the subject of the Israel situation.  There are some extremely knowledgeable people here on this forum who will soon dispel all the myths you have been indoctrinated in with regards to Israel.


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## Sally (Mar 25, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
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Really???  I think it would be obvious to any intelligent readers that any poster who just concerns herself with one little area of the world and is not interested in what is happening elsewhere even though so much is happening is actually not fooling the readers.


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## montelatici (Mar 25, 2014)

Sally said:


> montelatici said:
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At the moment I am spending most of my time on threads related to Ukraine/Russia, the Venezuelan situation  and Egypt.  This is on slightly more serious forums.  This thread interested me because of the ignorance demonstrated by the Israeli right or wrongers you have here.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Mar 25, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Sally said:
> 
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I haven't seen your recent posts on Ukraine/Russia, Venezuela and Egypt.  Perhaps they are a figment of your imagination, just like what you think about Israel.


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## Sally (Mar 25, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Sally said:
> 
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You are really not fooling anyone.  If you were so concerned with what is happening to innocent people, you would certainly be on the Midrdle East, Africa and Asia forums -- where many people are being murdered for their religious beliefs.  The only reason this forum appealed to you is because the Jews and Israel are involved and you saw a great opportunity to start with your bashing.  If there were no Jews involved in this tiny part of the world, you would have nothing to say, the same way you have nothing to say about the Christians and others murdered for their religious beliefs in other parts of the world.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Mar 25, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
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Us Pro-Israelis also deal in facts.  You will find we can back up any of our claims by legitimate sources.  Unlike you Israel haters who run around like headless chickens and can't back up any of your claims.


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## Sally (Mar 25, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
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No kidding?  The education system in the U.S. is not the best these days as it was years ago, and many of the educators on the campuses appear to brainwash the students against Israel and tell them nothing about what is happening to innocent people in the other countries of that area., and you are a good example of what has happened.  However, give us some of that Muslim propaganda against Israel.  It really is amusing in a way since many of us are quite aware of what is happening to innocents in the Muslim world, where even Muslims are busy murdering other Muslims because of the sect they belong to.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Mar 25, 2014)

montelatici said:


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> 
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> > montelatici said:
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You're probably talking about travelling to Europe, which is very anti-Semitic, as a whole.  Just look at the way Britain, France, Germany and Spain admonished their Israeli ambassadors a few weeks ago!!


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## Sally (Mar 25, 2014)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> montelatici said:
> 
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For all we know, she is of Iranian roots (after all so many Iranians came over here after the Revolution but they and their kids don't mind traveling back and forth there regardless).  I think everyone realizes that many, many Iranians are very prejudiced against Israel and the Jews.


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## toastman (Mar 25, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
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> > Sally said:
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Ohhh well sorry we're not qualified to post on your exclusive political forum! 
I mean, it is a message board after all, so only the smartest people can post there


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## toastman (Mar 25, 2014)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> montelatici said:
> 
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He's not new here Caroline, if you know what I mean


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## Roudy (Mar 25, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
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Did dipshit Nazi squealer forget that Arabs and Muslims have a long history of persecuting and killing non Muslims.  That includes siding with the Nazis and even fighting for them.  And of course causing the unnecessary death of about half million Jews in death camps.

Amin Al Husseini: Nazi Father of Jihad, Al Qaeda, Arafat, Saddam Hussein and the Muslim Brotherhood - Tell The Children The Truth - Homepage 

Speaking of socks we all know that you are sock and who's sock you are.  So tell us, how did Arabs become victorious in 1967?


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## ForeverYoung436 (Mar 25, 2014)

Roudy said:


> montelatici said:
> 
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> > Sweet_Caroline said:
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Yeah, I never understood that screenname.  Arabs lost out to the Jews big-time in 1967!!  I guess logic isn't their strong suit.


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## Roudy (Mar 25, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
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I didn't realize that you are such an experienced board person, Mohommod.  Wow, such a sophisticated bullshit artist and terrorist apologist with this vast internet knowledge, and lots of time on his hands to BUM AROUND all the hate sites to gather the latest bullshit Islamist propaganda.  Problem is your anti Israel lies and garbage serves only as entertainment for those of us who are more informed and see you for what you are.


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## Roudy (Mar 25, 2014)

toastman said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Sweet_Caroline said:
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I think he has an Arab PHD in Posting Advanced Islamist Propaganda on the Internet Studies. We aren't fit to shine his shoes.  LOL


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## Roudy (Mar 25, 2014)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Roudy said:
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> > montelatici said:
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To put it another way, every time Arabs were humiliated, they claimed it as a magnificent victory.  Strange mindset.


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## Roudy (Mar 25, 2014)

toastman said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
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> > montelatici said:
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Yeah, they go and they come back under a new nom de guerre.  It's like whack a mole.  LOL


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## Sweet_Caroline (Mar 25, 2014)

They lose big-time on the forums.  You have to feel sorry for them, (for about three seconds).


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## RoccoR (Mar 25, 2014)

Sweet_Caroline,  _et al,_


Sweet_Caroline said:


> They lose big-time on the forums.  You have to feel sorry for them, (for about three seconds).


*(COMMENT)*

Wow!  That long?

Very Respectfully,
R


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## Sweet_Caroline (Mar 25, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> Sweet_Caroline,  _et al,_
> 
> 
> Sweet_Caroline said:
> ...



Well, I give them a couple of seconds extra out of pity.


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## montelatici (Mar 25, 2014)

It is interesting to watch posters on the wrong side of an issue, i.e. supporting the oppression of a people through overwhelmingly military power, patting each other on the back.  I wonder if they feel the same way about how the Chinese treat the Tibetans or how the Turks treat the Kurds?


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## Sweet_Caroline (Mar 25, 2014)

montelatici said:


> It is interesting to watch posters on the wrong side of an issue, i.e. supporting the oppression of a people through overwhelmingly military power, patting each other on the back.  I wonder if they feel the same way about how the Chinese treat the Tibetans or how the Turks treat the Kurds?



Yes, I certainly agree the Jews are being oppressed in their own land although I would not say their enemy is an overwhelming military power though.  Glad to see you have finally come to that conclusion.


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## montelatici (Mar 25, 2014)

Roudy said:


> toastman said:
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> > Sweet_Caroline said:
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Oh, I see, your goal is to shout down those that observe and comment on the I/P situation as neutrals.  You would prefer that everyone that posts here support Jewish oppression of Christians and Muslims.  Wonderful group we have here.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Mar 25, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
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It is a great group we have here.  We have a lot of very informed posters who show an amazing amount of patients trying to educate the Israel haters on this forum.  Personally I would not go as far as some of them because their research does not seem to be appreciated.  I would have thought that those who are ignorant of the Israel situation (ie you, tinmore, billo etc) would greatly appreciate being informed of the facts by some of the more eloquent members on here, but it seems that you haters have an agenda all of your own.


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## montelatici (Mar 25, 2014)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > It is interesting to watch posters on the wrong side of an issue, i.e. supporting the oppression of a people through overwhelmingly military power, patting each other on the back.  I wonder if they feel the same way about how the Chinese treat the Tibetans or how the Turks treat the Kurds?
> ...



Who is oppressing the Jews in Israel, and how? I'm curious.


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## Sally (Mar 25, 2014)

montelatici said:


> It is interesting to watch posters on the wrong side of an issue, i.e. supporting the oppression of a people through overwhelmingly military power, patting each other on the back.  I wonder if they feel the same way about how the Chinese treat the Tibetans or how the Turks treat the Kurds?



Yes, it is quite interesting to see those like montelatici bring up the Kurds and the Tibetans.  These unfortunate people have been brought up many times, but you never see those like montelatici calling for a country for the Kurds even though they number many, many millions more than the "Palestinians."  Of course, you never see them ever mentioning that the Tibetans are occupied by the Chinese because they only want people to think about Israel and the "Palestinians."  Has montelatici mentioned that part of Cyprus is occupied by the Muslim Turks?  Meanwhile Tibetan women are forced to get abortions so that the Tibetan culture will die out, while the "Palestinians" are growing by leaps and bounds.  Maybe montelatici should sit down with the Dalai Lama on his next visit to the U.S. and commiserate with him about the plight of his people.  By the way, His Holiness, the Dalai Lama, has a web site.  Why not try to contact him and ttell him that you are crying crocodile tears for his people?


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## Sweet_Caroline (Mar 25, 2014)

montelatici said:


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There are areas of Israel Jews cannot go, roads they cannot drive on without fear of rock attacks, their holiest sites are dangerous for them, even a walk in the countryside is fraught with danger of possible attacks.  There are constant threats being made by Hamas and the Palestinian Authority calling for the demise of the Jewish State.  

As soon as the PA and Hamas realize that the Jews are going to hold on to that land and not give any more land away in the hope of peace (they know that was a bad move indeed), the better.


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## montelatici (Mar 25, 2014)

Sally said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > It is interesting to watch posters on the wrong side of an issue, i.e. supporting the oppression of a people through overwhelmingly military power, patting each other on the back.  I wonder if they feel the same way about how the Chinese treat the Tibetans or how the Turks treat the Kurds?
> ...



Of course I support a Kurdish state, always have.  And criticize the Chinese in there treatment of the Tibetans.  There are forums that discuss these issues and I make my point on those threads just as I do on this one.  I am not a hypocrite as most of you are.  You support Israeli Jew oppression of Christians and Muslims but criticize the oppression of the Kurds and Tibetans.  

Cyprus is a much different situation.  The Greeks were about to commit genocide on Cyprus as explained by the U.S Secretary of State at the time:

"In his memoirs, American Undersecretary of State George Ball said: "Makarios's central interest was to block off Turkish intervention so that he and his Greek Cypriots could go on happily massacring Turkish Cypriots. Obviously we would never permit that. "The fact is, however, that neither the United Nations, nor anyone, other than Turkey ever took effective action to prevent it. On Feb. 17, 1964 the Washington Post reported that "Greek Cypriot fanatics appear bent on a policy of genocide."


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## Roudy (Mar 25, 2014)

montelatici said:


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Calm down Mohommod. You're the one that accused the entire forum of being sock puppets.  This of course is your lame tactic in diverting from obvious, that you are actually a sock of you know who. 

Now tell us how did Arabs become victorious in the 1967 war?


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## Roudy (Mar 25, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
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Muslims are oppressing, killing and persecuting non Muslims all over the world.  Where they aren't oppressing and killing is because:
A- they can't get away with it.  And.
B- they are in the minority. 

Wake up and smell the Jihad.

I just love it when terrorist worshippers act as if they are "concerned" about "the oppressed."  Ha ha ha. What a JOKE!


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## montelatici (Mar 25, 2014)

Roudy said:


> montelatici said:
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Who has ever claimed that the Christians and Muslims won the 1967 war?  You are confused.


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## Roudy (Mar 25, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
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Israel didn't fight Christians in 1967 dipshit. 

5 Arab nations attacked Israel in 1967, and got their butts kicked. Why is Israel responsible for the consequences of that aggression when it was the Arab's fault?  

And how do you consider that utter defeat a victory?


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## montelatici (Mar 25, 2014)

Roudy said:


> montelatici said:
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Ok, Muslims are oppressing Muslims and Christians in Egypt and the Saudis are oppressing Shiite Muslims etc., etc.  That is wrong and I criticize it.  I just don't believe that because Muslims in some countries are oppressing Muslims, Christians or people of  other faiths, that it is ok for Jews to oppress Muslims and Christians in Palestine. I realize that you support the oppression of Christians and Muslims in Palestine and I believe that is wrong-headed and frankly,  sociopathic to support the oppression of people by other people.


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## Roudy (Mar 25, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
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Blah blah blah. Stop lumping Christians with Muslims. 

Christians and Muslims (about 1.8 million) living inside Israel are not being oppressed and in fact very happy.  

Israel should have annexed the West Bank and gotten this whole crap over with.


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## montelatici (Mar 25, 2014)

Roudy said:


> montelatici said:
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Setting aside the fact that Israel attacked, not the other way around it was a defeat for the Arabs:

"Israeli forces have launched a pre-emptive attack on Egypt and destroyed nearly 400 Egypt-based military aircraft."

BBC ON THIS DAY | 5 | 1967: Israel launches attack on Egypt

But you really should do some research before calling those that have forgotten more than you will ever learn, a "dipshit".  It's so juvenile, punk

Of course Israel fought Christians, some of Syria's best Army officer's were and are Christian:

" A number of Syrian Christians are also officers in the armed forces of Syria. They have preferred to mix in with Muslims rather than form all-Christian units and brigades, and fought alongside their Muslim compatriots against Israeli forces in the various Arab-Israeli conflicts of the 20th century. In addition to their daily work, Syrian Christians also participate in volunteer activities in the less developed areas of Syria. As a result, Syrian Christians are generally viewed by other Syrians as an asset to the larger community."

Christianity in Syria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Roudy (Mar 25, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
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Yes even some Jews became Nazis and fought in the German Nazi army. Sadam Hussien's right hand man Tariq Aziz was a Christian.  What's your point. Fact remains, it is Muslims that are murdering and committing genocide against Christians all over the world, not Jews, DIPSHIT.


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## Roudy (Mar 25, 2014)

Ha ha ha. What a joke of a propagandist and epic fail this guy is.  Israel fought and brilliantly defeated Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Iraq, who were supported by Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Libya, Morocco, Tunisia, and Sudan.  And the moron claims "Israel fought Christians".  I didn't know any of these Islamic shithole countries were considered "Christian nations". Ha ha ha.  Just how desperate do these idiots get?


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## montelatici (Mar 25, 2014)

Roudy said:


> montelatici said:
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Sure they are very happy, that's why organizations like Christ at the Checkpoint exist.


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## Roudy (Mar 25, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
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1.8 million Arabs who live as Israeli citizens prefer living in Israel over any Muslim shithole,  and that includes but not limited to joining their brethren in West Bank and Gaza. Perhaps they know a thing or two more than a false propagandist on an Internet message board.


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## Roudy (Mar 25, 2014)

Yup, the latest news according to Mohommod Latici is that Israel fought Christian nations during the 1967 war. I wonder if the Pope knows about this?


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## montelatici (Mar 25, 2014)

Roudy said:


> montelatici said:
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What does that have to do with the Israeli/Palestinian situation and in particular the Palestinian Christians?  Are you implying that because certain Muslims are oppressing Christians, it is ok for Israeli Jews to oppress Palestinian Christians and Muslims? What is your point?


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## Phoenall (Mar 26, 2014)

montelatici said:


> It is interesting to watch posters on the wrong side of an issue, i.e. supporting the oppression of a people through overwhelmingly military power, patting each other on the back.  I wonder if they feel the same way about how the Chinese treat the Tibetans or how the Turks treat the Kurds?





 Isn't that what the Palestinians tried to do to the Jews in 1948 when the massed might of 5 arab armies invaded Israel and ended up getting the kicking of their lives.


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## Phoenall (Mar 26, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
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 If you were neutral you would not use only pro Palestinian and/or anti Israeli sites as evidence.


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## Phoenall (Mar 26, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
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 The Christians in the M.E are in decline because of Islamic ethnic cleansing and genocide, they never fought on the side of islam because they are not allowed to bear arms or fight for the Islamic military. so how about it vic care to explain your other screen name that was banned?


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## Phoenall (Mar 26, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
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 It is you that is all for the oppression of muslims and Christians in Palestine, we are all for peace that is mutually agreeable and benefits everyone. The Christians in Palestine have declined since 1967 and they will tell you it is because of the muslims ethnic cleansing and violence.  Nice that you admit to being sociopathic when you support the ethnic cleansing and genocide of non muslims from the M.E.

 And as a matter of interest the Kurds are being attacked by the Iraqis, Iranians and the turks with over 3 million mass murdered in the last 66 years. Lets hear it for the muslims


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## Phoenall (Mar 26, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
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 Its not certain muslims, it is all muslims the world over. The oppression of Christians in Palestine is at the hands of extremist muslim groups like hamas and fatah. This is why the numbers are in decline due to Islamic ethnic cleansing and genocides. Every Christian holy site is closed and desecrated by the muslim rulers of the land, that is the reality


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 26, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > It is interesting to watch posters on the wrong side of an issue, i.e. supporting the oppression of a people through overwhelmingly military power, patting each other on the back.  I wonder if they feel the same way about how the Chinese treat the Tibetans or how the Turks treat the Kurds?
> ...



*Not true!*

Arab armies fought Israeli troops in Palestine.


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## Roudy (Mar 26, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
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You're so full of it. Arab armies NEVER fought to create a Palestine, they planned to destroy the Jewish state and kill all the Jews, and then divide the spoils between themselves. Even the so called Palestinians weren't expecting a Palestine out of any of the wars. Arabs would have laughed at them and then killed them all.  So you see, this conflict has never been about "stolen land" it's simply about Arab Islamic intolerance, hatred, and violence towards the non Muslim.


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 26, 2014)

Roudy said:


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I didn't say that.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Mar 26, 2014)

Roudy said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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Tinmore is a useful, clueless tool for Islam.


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## montelatici (Mar 26, 2014)

Roudy said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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> > Phoenall said:
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The Arab "armies" were fighting a European neo-colonization project, not "Jews". Get it straight, the Europeans could have been Protestants and they would have fought against them, just as they fought against the Crusaders.


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## Phoenall (Mar 26, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Roudy said:
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 Israel was created under International law and accepted as a sovereign nation by the UN and the majority of its member states. You are trying to say that Israel did not have the right to declare independence and become a sovereign state because the arabs wanted all the land. So you fabricate many scenarios that have Israel seen as land thieves and colonists when the fact is they are rightfully living on land that was always theirs.


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## Phoenall (Mar 26, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
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 No they were all Jews with ties to the land of Judea through DNA links. The arab armies were doing what they always do and exercising their ethnic cleansing to keep the non muslims as downtrodden as possible. Just as many Jews that lived in the M.E. migrated to Israel as did from Europe, and then after 1948 many more Jews from the M.E were evicted from their homes and made their way to Israel. The arabs reneged on the treaties they had signed giving the land of Palestine to the Jews after the grand mufti incited rebellion and hostilities across Palestine.


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## montelatici (Mar 26, 2014)

Phoenall said:


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Are you being serious?  "Ties to the land of Judea through DNA links"  If DNA links meant that people could just settle land their ancestors had lived on 2000 years prior, Greeks could reclaim Byzantium or Native Americans could claim land in China. Sheesh, what a concept.

No Arab signed over Palestine to the Jews, and, no Palestinian agreed to give up his home and land to European settlers, it was taken from them. That is just propaganda.


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## Sally (Mar 26, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Phoenall said:
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There was no country of Palestine -- it was just a territory.  Does anyone think that this poster would complain about the Hindus having to give up their lands after their ancestors had lived there thousands of years?  After all, millions of Hindus had their land carved off to make way for Pakistan because the Muslims had to have their own country.  However, such a to do with one tiny area of the world when early travelers didn't see this huge population of Arabs that some posters want you to believe there were.  Imagine if the Jews weren't in this tiny area creating jobs for the poor Arabs who came from their impoverished countries.  What a sorry lot these Arabs would have been trying to scrape a living.


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## montelatici (Mar 26, 2014)

So, you admit that several hundred thousand Christians and Muslims of Palestine were dispossessed by European Jews, but since Pakistan was split off from India, it's ok that these Christians and Muslims were dispossessed.  While I don't get your logic, I guess you can maintain that position, however absurd the connection is.


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## Sally (Mar 26, 2014)

montelatici said:


> So, you admit that several hundred thousand Christians and Muslims of Palestine were dispossessed by European Jews, but since Pakistan was split off from India, it's ok that these Christians and Muslims were dispossessed.  While I don't get your logic, I guess you can maintain that position, however absurd the connection is.



It is you who are claiming that about the Christians, but you surely don't care about the millions of Hindus who had to leave their ancestral lands.  If the Jews were not involved, you have no interest in what is happening to Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, and even Muslims of different sects.  The blood of the Christians is now running in the streets of Syria and you have not a care in the world abou them.  You don't even care that many Christians are being forced into Islam there.  Maybe you get down on your prayer mat and say --- Inshallah.


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## toastman (Mar 26, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Phoenall said:
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More Palestinians lies. It wasn't taken from them.
The Jews declared independence legally after cessation of the mandate. 
Show me documents that show that their declaration of independence was illegal.


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## montelatici (Mar 26, 2014)

How do you know I have no interest in what is happening to Christians or any other group elsewhere?  This thread is about Israel/Palestine, that's what is being discussed.  Why do you insist on bringing up issues that have nothing to do with the I/P situation.  India was an exchange of land between Hindus and Muslims both indigenous to the area, so it bears no similarity to the I/P situation.  

As far as Syria, I am in fact discussing the issue as we speak on another forum. The Christians of Syria are fully behind the Government and are in the Syrian Army fighting the rebels.  Not sure about your claim of forced conversion in Syria, I haven't seen anything to that effect, and I doubt the Government would force conversions.  Maybe the Al Quaeda rebel factions are doing that, but again, I haven't seen anything in the press.  And, it has nothing to do with the I/P situation which is what this thread is about.


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## ForeverYoung436 (Mar 26, 2014)

monte, you don't seem to get the fact that the Palestinian Christians are just being used as tools for the Muslims until they get all of Palestine.  Then they will be massacred.


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## toastman (Mar 26, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
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Lol where so you get your lies from??
Why did you put the word 'armies' in quotations?

And yes, the Europeans were Jews, with the exception os a small percentage of them maybe. Also, it wasn't just the recent European immigrants that fought in the war, it was the Jewish residents as well.


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 26, 2014)

toastman said:


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What did the mandate have to do with anything?


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## montelatici (Mar 26, 2014)

toastman said:


> montelatici said:
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What lie?  The settlers were European and they wrestled control of land from the indigenous Christians and Muslims.   That's just a fact.  If you mean by Jewish residents the indigenous Jewish Arabs, as they were called, they were a tiny minority.

Armies is in quotes because outside of the Jordanian Arab Legion, they weren't disciplined military organizations.


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## Sally (Mar 26, 2014)

montelatici said:


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Hmm, wonder if montelatici gets a coffee break every now and then.  Some times you get the feeling that some of these Muslim posters are sitting on porta-potties while they are busy demonizing the Israeli Jews.

Jews to no one's land


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## Roudy (Mar 26, 2014)

montelatici said:


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So you conceded that the Arabs weren't fighting for this mythical Palestine which they themselves did not believe existed. One small step for a moron and false propagandist.   

The Arabs really had no say in how the land that was never theirs to begin with was to be divided. It had been Ottoman land for 600 years. Instead they decided to attack the Jews over and over and over. The Arabs had no problems or objections whatsoever with all the Muslim shithole countries that were carved out of the Ottoman Empire.  Apparently only the Non Muslim Jewish country established in the ancient ancestral homeland of the Jews seemed to upset them. 

Again, Muslim hatred, intolerance and violence towards the non Muslim, that is what this conflict is really about. Proof of that is when Jordan and Egypt controlled West Bank and Gaza for 20 years from 1948 to 1967 not a peep out of anybody about this phony baloney Palestine.  As long as the evil Jews weren't in control and it was in Muslim hands, that is what mattered to them.


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## Roudy (Mar 26, 2014)

montelatici said:


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Are you purposefully not including the approximately one million Middle eastern Jews who had to flee the Muslim savages, who kept screaming at them "go to the homeland that you love so much"? How about their rights, properties, livelihood, assets, etc.  ha ha ha


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## Roudy (Mar 26, 2014)

montelatici said:


> How do you know I have no interest in what is happening to Christians or any other group elsewhere?  This thread is about Israel/Palestine, that's what is being discussed.  Why do you insist on bringing up issues that have nothing to do with the I/P situation.  India was an exchange of land between Hindus and Muslims both indigenous to the area, so it bears no similarity to the I/P situation.
> 
> As far as Syria, I am in fact discussing the issue as we speak on another forum. The Christians of Syria are fully behind the Government and are in the Syrian Army fighting the rebels.  Not sure about your claim of forced conversion in Syria, I haven't seen anything to that effect, and I doubt the Government would force conversions.  Maybe the Al Quaeda rebel factions are doing that, but again, I haven't seen anything in the press.  And, it has nothing to do with the I/P situation which is what this thread is about.


How do we know you don't care about the rights of Christians being killed by Muslim savages?  Because you're a troll sock puppet who spends all his time defending Palestinians savagery, that's how.   

You aren't fooling anybody, Mohomod. Latici.


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## Roudy (Mar 26, 2014)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> monte, you don't seem to get the fact that the Palestinian Christians are just being used as tools for the Muslims until they get all of Palestine.  Then they will be massacred.


In fact the Christians are in a prison camp run by Muslim savages. They don't dare object because they know what their barbaric jailers are capable of.


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## montelatici (Mar 26, 2014)

Roudy said:


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No, this is about European neo-colonization and the dispossession of the indigenous people.  Can't get simpler than that.


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## montelatici (Mar 26, 2014)

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We are talking 1947, there was no large scale immigration from said countries until after the war.


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## montelatici (Mar 26, 2014)

Roudy said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > How do you know I have no interest in what is happening to Christians or any other group elsewhere?  This thread is about Israel/Palestine, that's what is being discussed.  Why do you insist on bringing up issues that have nothing to do with the I/P situation.  India was an exchange of land between Hindus and Muslims both indigenous to the area, so it bears no similarity to the I/P situation.
> ...



Who is defending Palestinian "savagery"?  I am just criticizing Israeli savagery.


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## Sally (Mar 26, 2014)

montelatici said:


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What Indigenous People???  In years to come, all those Muslims who are flooding into Europe for jobs will start claiming they were the Indigenous People!!!  Actually one of the biggest colonizers in the world were the Muslims when they left the Saudi Peninsula and started taking over other countries in the name of Islam.


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## Roudy (Mar 26, 2014)

montelatici said:


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Not really. It is about the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and the Arabs not liking the one non Muslim entity. In Jordan aka "Aran Palestine" they brought in a relative of the Saudi King to rule.  All the other Arab shitholes that were formed there were no issues.  Only the Jewish one. Not hard to figure out that this is about the intolerance of the backwards medieval savages.


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## aris2chat (Mar 26, 2014)

montelatici said:


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It is about a land underpopulated, under developed and cost more to run that it brought in. It is about giving a people with a rich religious and historical connection of the land back their identity and a haven they had been welcomed to by Ottoman and arab after persecution and near extermination.  It was about bringing a stagnant region of petty tribes into the modern world.  It was about the best division of the failed Ottoman empire and the creation of viable states.


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## toastman (Mar 26, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
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Palestine was the mandate and the mandate was Palestine. 

But what I said was that Israel declared independence after cessation of the British mandate


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## Roudy (Mar 26, 2014)

Sally said:


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Exactly. All the lands now considered "Muslim" were gained through invasion, aggression, violence, rape, looting, and pillaging by Arabs. Talk about "colonization".  Islam if anything is Arab Imperialism.  Look at all the countries that now speak Arabic and wave the flag and peaceful sword of Islam. Ha ha ha.


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## Roudy (Mar 26, 2014)

montelatici said:


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And not a peep about Palestinian savagery.   Ñor about Muslim barbarism throughout the world, Mohommod. You are too transparent. Give it up. Or don't , who gives.  We'll just keep laughing at your stupid propaganda and lies. How's that.


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## montelatici (Mar 26, 2014)

aris2chat said:


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Well, that's the propaganda.  The fact is between 500,000 and 750,000 Christians and Muslims lost their homes and their land and their offspring are in refugee camps.


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## Phoenall (Mar 26, 2014)

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Could that be because the arabs had no land in Palestine to begin with, the demographics show that very little land was owned by arabs. Don't forget the Palestinians are trying to claim land they never held title to or even lived on as they arrived after the Jewish farms started production.    

 Yes what a concept that a simple blood test could determine a person claims to be indigenous and able to trace their ownership of the land back to roman times as false. Or that the same blood test could show another person has direct links to the land due to a faulty Gene present in 99% of the people who lived their from before Christ till the present day, yet is present in less than 1% of the Palestinian muslims.

 The owners of the land could dispose of it how they saw fit and did not need the itinerant muslim workers permission to do so, this would be like saying you cant dispose of your land because a traveller wants to live there free of charge.

 You really need to get your head out of the Koran and start reading modern history books that tell the truth.


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## MrMax (Mar 26, 2014)

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Then maybe their offspring should re-think their strategy?


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## montelatici (Mar 26, 2014)

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Not propaganda, just facts.  The use of facts to make a point is something that people like you have difficulty with.  Your strategy is name calling and spouting bullshit.  

But in terms of "savagery"  Palestinian civilians killed by the IDF over the past 10 years run in the thousands while Israeli civilians killed run in the 100s.  While the death of a Christian, Muslim or Jewish civilian is a sad thing, it is clear to see which side is the most savage.


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## Phoenall (Mar 26, 2014)

montelatici said:


> So, you admit that several hundred thousand Christians and Muslims of Palestine were dispossessed by European Jews, but since Pakistan was split off from India, it's ok that these Christians and Muslims were dispossessed.  While I don't get your logic, I guess you can maintain that position, however absurd the connection is.






 Then what about the several hundred thousands of  Christians and Jews dispossessed of their land and property when Syria, Iraq, Lebanon and trans Jordan were created out of the mandate of Palestine. How the Palestinians in those nations ethnically cleansed the land of Christians and Jews against the charter of the mandate that you so blithely quote. How their right to free determination was not just violated but removed all together in the name of islam. How they escaped to what is now Israel and fought for the right to exist against the massed armies of the arab league and Palestine. Then evicted the muslims that had fought against them as dictated by the UN charter and the GENEVA CONVENTIONS.

 Not one muslim or Christian was dispossessed of anything by Israel, they dispossessed themselves by exercising their free determination to take part in a genocide of the Jews that they failed to carry out.


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## montelatici (Mar 26, 2014)

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Is this section about Muslims in the world or about the I/P conflict.  I am extremely critical Muslims when they cause havoc on the appropriate forum.  I just don't understand what Muslim activities in Sudan, for example, have to do with Palestine/Israel.


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## aris2chat (Mar 26, 2014)

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They left because their arab brothers told them to, not because jews or Israel made them leave.
Those same brethren prevented them from returning after the ceasefire and kept them in refugee camps that were eventually supported by the UN instead of absorbing the population they created.
Israel had reunification programs for palestinians.  They also absorbed the jews from arab lands forced to leave with what little they could carry, more people than the palestinians that had left before or during the war.  They also absorbed jews from around the world, and still they offered to take in more than 100,000 of the palestinians that had left if the arab states would settle the rest.
Oslo shifted responsibility of the refugees to the PA who also kept them in camps instead of integrating them back into the general population that would make up the future state.


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## Sally (Mar 26, 2014)

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Actually the Israelis have shown an awful lot of restrain since they certainly could have killed many more "Palestinians."  However, in Muslim countries, you will never see such restraint as the Israelis.  They could care less who they kill.  I can't see people such as the Russians and Chinese showing such restraint if the Muslims in their countries started up the way they have toward Israel.    By the way, I wonder if we can see some legitimate facts from you that would appear on such sites as the Encyclopedia Britanica or from a history department at a leading U.S. university.


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## montelatici (Mar 26, 2014)

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So, your contention is that the Muslims and Christians of Palestine owned no land so it was ok to ethnically  cleanse them.  Interesting concept.


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## Phoenall (Mar 26, 2014)

montelatici said:


> How do you know I have no interest in what is happening to Christians or any other group elsewhere?  This thread is about Israel/Palestine, that's what is being discussed.  Why do you insist on bringing up issues that have nothing to do with the I/P situation.  India was an exchange of land between Hindus and Muslims both indigenous to the area, so it bears no similarity to the I/P situation.
> 
> As far as Syria, I am in fact discussing the issue as we speak on another forum. The Christians of Syria are fully behind the Government and are in the Syrian Army fighting the rebels.  Not sure about your claim of forced conversion in Syria, I haven't seen anything to that effect, and I doubt the Government would force conversions.  Maybe the Al Quaeda rebel factions are doing that, but again, I haven't seen anything in the press.  And, it has nothing to do with the I/P situation which is what this thread is about.






 But they have everything to do with the situation as it was not an exchange of land but an aggressive colonisation of land by muslims who resorted to violent means of stealing land they had no title to. They murdered 20 million Hindu's and Sikhs to force Britain to hand over the land. The muslims came from near and far to colonise the land and to breed like vermin.

 It is you that constantly brings in of topic areas of debate like the Christian army general to show that Palestinians are not ethnically cleansing the land of Christians.


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## Sally (Mar 26, 2014)

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There probably were some who put aside money to buy land, but in the main the land was owned by the Turks.  For the life of me, I don't know how anyone can think that most of these poor people were able to buy land.  American sharecroppers never scrapped enough money to buy their own land.  They were stuck working for someone else the same way as the Arabs worked for the rich Turkish landowners.


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## Phoenall (Mar 26, 2014)

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 Everything as it was the mandate that was responsible for the partitioning of the land into 5 nations, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, trans Jordan and Israel. all agreed by the arab leaders who acquired their pound of flesh. It was the arabs that reneged on the treaties they signed as part of the mandate and wanted all the land for themselves. The British should have cut of all supplies to the mandated countries and called in the LoN to assist in quelling the rebellious arab muslims. Flooding the mandate with troops prepared to shoot at the first sing of any insurrection, and arresting the leaders on charges of treason and being in breach of International Law.


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## Phoenall (Mar 26, 2014)

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They had been invited by the British as part of the mandate terms, just as muslims were invited to Britain. They were valid legal migrants with as much right to be there as any arab muslim. The Jews of Palestine owned more land than the arab muslims and that is why Israel was the shape it was to account for the land owned by the Jews. Very few arab muslims owned land in Palestine they were that poor, and the few that did found it heavy going to make a living. The land was given freely by its legal and rightful owners to the Jews to make a homeland.


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## Phoenall (Mar 26, 2014)

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Makes me think of Cartman from South Park when he is playing online games and he gets the runs.


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## Phoenall (Mar 26, 2014)

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 NO that is just your excuse for the violence, more illegal arab colonists moved to Palestine after the creation of the muslim nations to swell the population of arab muslims than ever the European Jews did. The arabs were always  double the population of the Jews and Christians combined so they kept a demographic advantage. It failed them in 1948 when the Jews fought for their very existence and the arabs fought for nothing. In a straight war the muslims will always fail due to their cowardly manner and religious teachings. It was the intention of the arabs to dispossess the indigenous Jews of everything including their lives, only it was the Jews that ended up dispossessing the arabs of their lives and hopes.


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## Phoenall (Mar 26, 2014)

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 There was large scale immigration from all across the M.E. since the 1850's when the Jews were being ethnically cleansed. It became so much of a problem that iran held the Jews hostage to stop the migration. Look it up it is all there in the history books.


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## Phoenall (Mar 26, 2014)

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 Here we go again with the BLOOD LIBELS that never seem to have a trusted source. The only savages are the Palestinians when they brutalise and torture people to death and then proceed to eat their entrails. When you can find an example of that type of savagery coming from the Jews then I will join you and condemn them. This is even happening today in Syria


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## Phoenall (Mar 26, 2014)

Sally said:


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 Then the Europeans fought back and forced them to flee the stolen lands and crawl back to their tents in the Arabian desert


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## Phoenall (Mar 26, 2014)

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 islamonazi propaganda


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## Phoenall (Mar 26, 2014)

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 But you don't use facts, just ISLAMONAZI PROPAGANDA


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## Phoenall (Mar 26, 2014)

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 Because the muslim from sudan will flock to gaza to swell the ranks and attack the jews. We can see it in every muslim war. Iraq was over run with foreign muslims, Syria is awash with European muslims. every muslim arab spring sees thousands of foreign muslims flocking to the fight, and they have done the same in Palestine. Only this time it has backfired on them as they cant leave without showing they are flying a false flag.


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## Phoenall (Mar 26, 2014)

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Wrong again little boy the fact is the only people engaging in ethnic cleansing of Christians is the Palestinians as shown by the declining numbers right across the M.E. 
 This is why the Christians are flocking to Israel for safety, or fleeing to Christian countries away from the barbaric Palestinian scum. If you bother to read the mandate terms you will see that the British were tasked with evacuating all the muslims from the land to make way for the returning Jews. Those few muslims that  owned land would recive compensation for the loss of their land and livelihood and have land given to them in their new nation. No person would be forced to leave and could stay as full citizens of the NEW ISRAEL.   Now go back to 1948 when the combined might of the arab armies attempted to ethnically cleanse the Jews from the land  by the simple matter of committing genocide on them. something the muslims are well known for around the world is their genocides.


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## montelatici (Mar 26, 2014)

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You do realize that absolutely nothing you have written has a basis in fact.  

If you read the source documents you may be able to better understand what all the disagreement is about.  The Mandate is not a long document.  The key sentence in the document is the following:

"Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favor of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country; and..."

So, first of all, the Mandate for Palestine has nothing to do with anything but Palestine, nothing to do with 5 nations. Secondly, it clearly states that yes, there was a desire to establish a Jewish "home" IN Palestine.  Notice, it does not say state, country or anything of the like.  Thirdly, the creation of a "Jewish Home" IN Palestine was not to " prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine"

So, can you understand why the Christians and Muslims might just be a little chagrined?

Read the source document here:

The Avalon Project : The Palestine Mandate


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## montelatici (Mar 26, 2014)

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I posted the Mandate link below.  Nothing you have written has a basis in fact. The Mandate said nothing about evacuating Muslims, in fact, it said quite the opposite.  Its said that the rights of non-Jews were not to be tread upon.  You are just making up things.  Heck, there are source documents that contradict everything you have written. Why do you even post this nonsense that can so easily be disproven?

"Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favor of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, *it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine*, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country; and

The Avalon Project : The Palestine Mandate


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## MrMax (Mar 26, 2014)

Arabs should just realize that they lost the war they started and move on.


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## montelatici (Mar 26, 2014)

MrMax said:


> Arabs should just realize that they lost the war they started and move on.



Where to?


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## Roudy (Mar 26, 2014)

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The fact that the IslamoNazi savages didn't kill enough Jews doesn't make them right.  Doh!


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## Roudy (Mar 26, 2014)

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> ...


Anywhere that takes them. That's what Jews did after Arab animals kicked over a million of them out of lands they had been living in for millennia.  Oh I forgot, the Arabs won't take them in either, they just like to weep crocodile tears from afar  for a crisis they brought upon their own brethren but won't do jackshit for them.


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## Roudy (Mar 26, 2014)

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Ha ha. He spouts off IslamoNazi propaganda 24/7 and complains about it when he gets the truth thrown back in his face. Why are they always such whiners?


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## montelatici (Mar 26, 2014)

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What is the propaganda.  Are you claiming that no Christians and Muslims living in Palestine  before 1947 lost their land and homes?


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## montelatici (Mar 26, 2014)

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But the fact that Jews killed a greater number of Christians and Muslims makes them right?


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## proudveteran06 (Mar 26, 2014)

montelatici said:


> MrMax said:
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> > Arabs should just realize that they lost the war they started and move on.
> ...



Realize Israel is not going back to the 67 Lines they rejected in the first place or recognize " Right of Return" which will eventually annex Israel to Palestine . Please tell us what the Palestinians have done to " negotiate".


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## MrMax (Mar 26, 2014)

montelatici said:


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There are tons of Arab countries that could easily absorb them, they can take their pick.


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## Roudy (Mar 26, 2014)

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Muslim savagery isn't limited to any general geographical area.  The same savagery, barbarism, intolerance, medieval mentality, chauvinism, oppression, persecution, terrorism, inability to coexist, etc. is happening all over the world including in Israel and Palestine.  It is a worldwide phenomenon and Israel is just one of the hotspots and on the front lines of dealing with Islamic barbarism.  Got it? Get it? LOL


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## Roudy (Mar 26, 2014)

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It wasn't "their" land, idiot.


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## Roudy (Mar 26, 2014)

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Just as the Americans killed more Nazis.  By the way you again keep lumping Christians into a conflict instigated by Muslims of which Christians are the victims. How about you put up some data or shut up with the garbage propaganda about Jews killing Christians.  You are truly pathetic and desperate.


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## Roudy (Mar 26, 2014)

I'm trying to figure out of Mohommod Latici is Sherri #1 or Sherri #3.  LOL


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## montelatici (Mar 26, 2014)

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Muslims don't have a monopoly on savagery.  I guess the Muslims should hate Christians as much as you hate Muslims given what's going on in the Central African Republic.

"International peacekeepers have failed to prevent the ethnic cleansing of Muslim civilians in the western part of the Central African Republic, Amnesty International said in a report issued today.
To protect the countrys remaining Muslim communities, international peacekeeping forces must break the control of anti-balaka militias and station sufficient troops in towns where Muslims are threatened.
Anti-balaka militias are carrying out violent attacks in an effort to ethnically cleanse Muslims in the Central African Republic, said Joanne Mariner, senior crisis response adviser at Amnesty International.
The result is a Muslim exodus of historic proportions.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/news/cen...thnic-cleansing-sectarian-violence-2014-02-12


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## Roudy (Mar 26, 2014)

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Meh, get over it.  We are living in a world today where the words Muslim and Islam are synonymous with barbarism and terrorism.  

You really are fulla baloney.  99% of the "ethnic cleansing" going on today are by Muslims on non Muslims.  Look it up, oh Islam apologist and fighter for everything Islam and Palestinian.  LOL


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## Sally (Mar 26, 2014)

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You don't think that any Muslims killed Christians in the Central African Republic???  Meanwhile, how come you, supposedly a Roman Catholic, have overlooked the Boko Haram -- a group that has killed many Christians in Nigeria lately.  Maybe it doesn't bother you to see the Christians have their throats slit there and people killed while praying in their churches.  I guess it was too much trouble for you to find out what is happening to the Christians there.  It was enough that they were murdered in the millions in the 70's, but now you have this crazy extremist group of Muslims picking up the mantle in killing them.  Naturally the 2,000,000 plus Christians murdered in the Sudan wouldn't interest you at all. 

montelatici is certainly a hoot.  Here she is bringing up what is happening in Central Africa when Christians have been killed in Syria, Iraq, and many other Muslim countries. and there has not been a peep out of her..


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## montelatici (Mar 26, 2014)

Boko Haram are in Nigeria, not in the CAF, and they are murderous scum.  The point I am making is that your visceral hate for Muslims is a conditioned reflex brought about by constant viewing of anti-muslim propaganda. It is much like the hate Germans had for Jews after being conditioned to hate them through clever manipulation of the media or the hate Americans had for blacks.  Sure, some white women may have been raped by Blacks, but the propaganda of the time made appear that every black man was a rapist.  

There are bad people of all faiths, races and ethnicities

As I said, this section is for the I/P situation not who is killing who in India (Hindus have murdered many Christians), Africa etc.  It is you that keep bringing what is going on outside of the subject of this section, so quit highjacking the thread. Stick to the subject.


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## Sally (Mar 26, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Boko Haram are in Nigeria, not in the CAF, and they are murderous scum.  The point I am making is that your visceral hate for Muslims is a conditioned reflex brought about by constant viewing of anti-muslim propaganda. It is much like the hate Germans had for Jews after being conditioned to hate them through clever manipulation of the media or the hate Americans had for blacks.  Sure, some white women may have been raped by Blacks, but the propaganda of the time made appear that every black man was a rapist.
> 
> There are bad people of all faiths, races and ethnicities
> 
> As I said, this section is for the I/P situation not who is killing who in India (Hindus have murdered many Christians), Africa etc.  It is you that keep bringing what is going on outside of the subject of this section, so quit highjacking the thread. Stick to the subject.



You're not fooling many of the viewers not matter how hard you try.  You mentioned one country in Africa, but you sure did skip over the other countries where Muslim extremists are acting up.  Nobody hates Muslims in general; the ones they dislike are the ones who kill people in the name of their religion and who force Islamic ways on non Muslims.  Evidently you have no problem with Christian and Hindu girls being kidnapped, raped and forced into Islam.  If you had been alive at the time, you would have had no problem with 3,000,000 people (mainly Hindus) killed in Bangladesh by the Pakistani Army.  Thousands of women were raped during this time.  Surely, even you, are aware of the hatred the Sunnis have for the Shia and vice versa, and each group has no problem in blowing each other up.  The only reason you are on this forum is to demonize Israel when much worse is happening in the Middle East, Southeast Asia and Africa.  Your silence tells a lot about you.   You will find honest Muslims who admit that there is a big, big problem.  As one Pakistani Muslim said in a Letter to the Editor of Dawn.com that even if the terrorists were a small percentage of Muslims, it would still be in the millioins.


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## montelatici (Mar 26, 2014)

It is you that is not fooling anyone.  You are attempting to hijack a thread.  This thread is not about criticizing Muslims and their actions around the world.  It is about the I/P situation.  If you want to join a discussion about other Muslim issues, there are threads and discussion groups for it.  If you would prefer that this discussion be shut down because there are posters that have a different opinion than you do about the I/P situation (the subject of the discussion) , then ask the moderators to shut it down.


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## Sally (Mar 26, 2014)

montelatici said:


> It is you that is not fooling anyone.  You are attempting to hijack a thread.  This thread is not about criticizing Muslims and their actions around the world.  It is about the I/P situation.  If you want to join a discussion about other Muslim issues, there are threads and discussion groups for it.  If you would prefer that this discussion be shut down because there are posters that have a different opinion than you do about the I/P situation (the subject of the discussion) , then ask the moderators to shut it down.




But the Israel/Palestine conflict is actually nothing when you compare the horrendous things that are happening in the rest of the Middle East, Africa and Southeast Asia where people are lying dead in the streets.  How come you were so quick to bring up the Christians but you, yourself, couldn't find the time to find forums here to speak about what is happening to them in other countries.  It appears that if the Jews are not involved, you really don't care what is happening even though atrocities are taking place all the time.  One other thing, I hope you are getting time and a half for your effort in trying to demonize Israel.


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## Hossfly (Mar 26, 2014)

montelatici said:


> It is you that is not fooling anyone.  You are attempting to hijack a thread.  This thread is not about criticizing Muslims and their actions around the world.  It is about the I/P situation.  If you want to join a discussion about other Muslim issues, there are threads and discussion groups for it.  If you would prefer that this discussion be shut down because there are posters that have a different opinion than you do about the I/P situation (the subject of the discussion) , then ask the moderators to shut it down.


Re-calculate. Re-calculate.


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## aris2chat (Mar 26, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Boko Haram are in Nigeria, not in the CAF, and they are murderous scum.  The point I am making is that your visceral hate for Muslims is a conditioned reflex brought about by constant viewing of anti-muslim propaganda. It is much like the hate Germans had for Jews after being conditioned to hate them through clever manipulation of the media or the hate Americans had for blacks.  Sure, some white women may have been raped by Blacks, but the propaganda of the time made appear that every black man was a rapist.
> 
> There are bad people of all faiths, races and ethnicities
> 
> As I said, this section is for the I/P situation not who is killing who in India (Hindus have murdered many Christians), Africa etc.  It is you that keep bringing what is going on outside of the subject of this section, so quit highjacking the thread. Stick to the subject.



chad, camaroon and central africa.  They don't stop at the border of nigeria


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## montelatici (Mar 26, 2014)

Sally said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > It is you that is not fooling anyone.  You are attempting to hijack a thread.  This thread is not about criticizing Muslims and their actions around the world.  It is about the I/P situation.  If you want to join a discussion about other Muslim issues, there are threads and discussion groups for it.  If you would prefer that this discussion be shut down because there are posters that have a different opinion than you do about the I/P situation (the subject of the discussion) , then ask the moderators to shut it down.
> ...



If the I/P conflict is "actually nothing", perhaps this section/thread should be removed.  I participate in other discussions so it would be fine if this section were removed.


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## Sally (Mar 26, 2014)

montelatici said:


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Can you tell us on what other forums of the USMB you are participating where you are discussing what your friends are doing to others in many parts of the world?  I think many of us would be interested in what you are saying.


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## Phoenall (Mar 27, 2014)

montelatici said:


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 You don't even know what size Palestine was little boy do you, and that the original Palestinian mandate dealt with the whole of Palestine not just the little shit hole that is gaza and the west bank. The San Remo conference set the scene with these resolutions
 Great Britain and France agreed to recognize the provisional independence of Syria and Mesopotamia, while claiming mandates for their administration. Palestine was composed of the Ottoman administrative districts of southern Syria. Under international law, premature recognition of its independence would be a gross affront to the government of the newly declared parent state. It could have been construed as a belligerent act of intervention without any League of Nations sanction
For France, the San Remo decision meant that most of its claims in Syria were internationally recognized and relations with Faysal were now subject to French military and economic considerations. 
Recognizing that not all parts of the Middle East were ready for full independence, mandates were established for the government of three territories: Syria and Lebanon, Mesopotamia (Iraq) and Palestine. In each case, one of the Allied Powers was assigned to implement the mandate until the territories in question could "stand alone."


As history shows the Christians suffered brutality and atrocities at the hands of arab muslims for 1400 years


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## Phoenall (Mar 27, 2014)

montelatici said:


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There were plans to evacuate the arab muslims from Palestine to a nation of their choice because they were not natives of the area as this shows.

 FACT

The Jewish population increased by 470,000 between World War I and World War II, while the non-Jewish population rose by 588,000. 13 In fact, the permanent Arab population increased 120 percent between 1922 and 1947. 14

This rapid growth of the Arab population was a result of several factors. *One was immigration from neighboring states*constituting 37 percent of the total immigration to pre-state Israelby Arabs who wanted to take advantage of the higher standard of living the Jews had made possible. 15 The Arab population also grew because of the improved living conditions created by the Jews as they drained malarial swamps and brought improved sanitation and health care to the region. Thus, for example, the Muslim infant mortality rate fell from 201 per thousand in 1925 to 94 per thousand in 1945 and life expectancy rose from 37 years in 1926 to 49 in 1943. 16

The Arab population increased the most in cities where large Jewish populations had created new economic opportunities. From 19221947, the non-Jewish population increased 290 percent in Haifa, 131 percent in Jerusalem and 158 percent in Jaffa. The growth in Arab towns was more modest: 42 percent in Nablus, 78 percent in Jenin and 37 percent in Bethlehem. 17


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## Phoenall (Mar 27, 2014)

montelatici said:


> MrMax said:
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> 
> > Arabs should just realize that they lost the war they started and move on.
> ...





 How about were they migrated from between 1922 and 1947 when the arab population increased by 120% impossible alone from breeding and needed migration to reach this figure. 37% of the total migration to pre state Israel was by arab muslims looking to take advantage of the higher standard of living made possible by the Jews


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## Phoenall (Mar 27, 2014)

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Not as many as you have been told about, in fact very few muslims owned anything but the shirt on their backs. You see the reality is they only arrived in the area a few short years earlier. Which is why the Palestinians use the two year rule for claiming Palestinian nationality


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## Phoenall (Mar 27, 2014)

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 Try again as the majority of Christians killed have been at the hands of Palestinians and other muslims.  See here from a Christian organisation

Palestinian Areas « Christian & Church Persecution

 Wednesday, November 27th, 2013 

Christians living in the Gaza Strip live under the reality of ongoing attacks on both churches and individuals. Living under the control of Hamas which considers Christians as infidels, the situation is more serious than you can imagine, Hazem Shanab said. Hamas controls all churches and mosques implements their ideology in all sectors of life, even to rewriting textbooks to match their worldview.


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## Phoenall (Mar 27, 2014)

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 Here you go of topic again and using none Palestinian / Israeli actions to prove a non existent point. The fact is the muslims bit of more than they could chew and choked on the result in CAR, and have ended up losing. This is going to happen more and more as the muslims are fighting far too many wars on far too many fronts and they just don't have the manpower to sustain the level's of violence they are engaged in. So expect some rather epic fails in the coming months as conservative islam takes back control from extremist islam, just like has happened in Pakistan and Egypt.


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## Phoenall (Mar 27, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Boko Haram are in Nigeria, not in the CAF, and they are murderous scum.  The point I am making is that your visceral hate for Muslims is a conditioned reflex brought about by constant viewing of anti-muslim propaganda. It is much like the hate Germans had for Jews after being conditioned to hate them through clever manipulation of the media or the hate Americans had for blacks.  Sure, some white women may have been raped by Blacks, but the propaganda of the time made appear that every black man was a rapist.
> 
> There are bad people of all faiths, races and ethnicities
> 
> As I said, this section is for the I/P situation not who is killing who in India (Hindus have murdered many Christians), Africa etc.  It is you that keep bringing what is going on outside of the subject of this section, so quit highjacking the thread. Stick to the subject.






 You do the same and then tell everyone else to stick by your rules little boy.

 The fact remains that the muslims invaded CAR with the sole intention of taking the land and turning it into another Islamic shit hole. They failed and ended up getting a good pasting and now are complaining about the treatment they are getting. Same in Israel when they attack the Jews and get beaten to a pulp they complain about getting beat.


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## Phoenall (Mar 27, 2014)

montelatici said:


> It is you that is not fooling anyone.  You are attempting to hijack a thread.  This thread is not about criticizing Muslims and their actions around the world.  It is about the I/P situation.  If you want to join a discussion about other Muslim issues, there are threads and discussion groups for it.  If you would prefer that this discussion be shut down because there are posters that have a different opinion than you do about the I/P situation (the subject of the discussion) , then ask the moderators to shut it down.






By showing what the muslims are doing in other places highlights what they are doing in Palestine. And the fact is that the muslims are ethnically cleaning non muslims from Palestine.

http://www.persecution.org/category/countries/middle-east/palestinian-areas/

 Christian Schools in Gaza Strip Threatened with Closure
Sunday, July 21st, 2013 

As a result of a new degree issued by the Hamas government that oversees the Gaza strip five Christian schools are threatened to be unable to offer classes for more than 1000 students when classes are scheduled to start in September. The decree issued by the government places a ban on co-educational classes for all students over the age of 10. The result of this action, which is just another of the many pressures on Christians living in this area, will be that the schools are forced to close as the funds do not exist to recruit enough teachers or space and the impact will ripple through the community having effects on both the Christian and Muslim families who were served by the schools.


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## Phoenall (Mar 27, 2014)

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 You would like that wouldn't you so that your epic fail can no longer be seen. What a fool you have made of yourself with your claims using the Christians when the truth is they face the brutality and barbarism that is islam.

http://www.persecution.org/category/countries/middle-east/palestinian-areas/

 The Mideasts Vanishing Christians
Sunday, August 26th, 2012 

*Christians throughout the Middle East are being attacked and killed while thousands upon thousands have fled their homeland in hopes of finding a safe haven in western countries*. For example, in Iran, the Revolutionary Guard has taken over the oversight of churches and has arrested scores of Christian converts from Islam. In Kuwait, the Saudi grand mufti told crowds that it is necessary to destroy all the churches in the Arabian Peninsula. *In Gaza, Christians have allegedly been kidnapped and forced to convert to Islam.* These cases are just a few of many extreme acts and threats of persecution in the Middle East that The National Interest brings to light in this revealing article.


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 27, 2014)

Phoenall said:


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The two year rule was part of the citizenship order of 1925 written by the British as part of their mandate.

The citizenship order defined any former Turkish citizen who normally lived inside Palestine's international borders as a Palestinian citizen.

It also stated that any immigrant who spent two years in the country could become a Palestinian citizen. The Palestinians used the two year rule because that was the law that was on the books.

As far as the citizens owning nothing, there are people all over the world (including in places like the US and Israel) who own nothing. This has absolutely no bearing on their rights as citizens of their respective countries.


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## MrMax (Mar 27, 2014)

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And they should go back to Jordan then.


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 27, 2014)

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> The citizenship order defined any former Turkish citizen who normally lived inside Palestine's international borders as a Palestinian citizen.



You missed this point.

The Turkish citizens who normally lived inside Jordan's international borders became Jordanian citizens.

Different country.


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## Phoenall (Mar 27, 2014)

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 As did the Palestinians who lived in the west bank after Jordan annexed the land in 1949. They are no longer Palestinians as the exercised free determination to become part of Jordan. They cant claim right of return to land and property they never owned, which is what the vast majority of Palestinians are doing. So a simple piece of paper either from the mandate or the Ottomans giving details of land ownership will settle the problems once and for all. The registry of the land is still in existence and extends back to 1850 so the Palestinians can give the caretakers their names and the details of the land to receive a copy of the registry details for that land. For a small sum of course to cover expenses.


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## montelatici (Mar 27, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > It is you that is not fooling anyone.  You are attempting to hijack a thread.  This thread is not about criticizing Muslims and their actions around the world.  It is about the I/P situation.  If you want to join a discussion about other Muslim issues, there are threads and discussion groups for it.  If you would prefer that this discussion be shut down because there are posters that have a different opinion than you do about the I/P situation (the subject of the discussion) , then ask the moderators to shut it down.
> ...



Should the persecution of Muslims by Buddhists in Burma be taken as a sign that all societies with Buddhists in the majority will persecute Muslims? Should Muslims viscerally hate all Buddhists as you lot hate Muslims because of the persecution?

US Congressional Panel: End Persecution of Muslims in Burma

US Congressional Panel: End Persecution of Muslims in Burma


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 27, 2014)

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Jordan never legitimately annexed the West Bank. It was always considered occupied.

Land ownership is irrelevant to citizen's rights.


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## aris2chat (Mar 27, 2014)

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Jordan annexed the West Bank, it just was not accepted by most countries.  Jordan offered citizenship to the palestinians in the West Bank and Jordan as well as the position of PM to Arafat.


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## MrMax (Mar 27, 2014)

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Possession is 9/10ths of the law. Your move.


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## Phoenall (Mar 27, 2014)

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 This is not about Burma and Buddhists but about Palestine were the muslims are ethnically cleansing the Christians from the land.

 Your words from above
* You are attempting to hijack a thread.  This thread is not about criticizing Muslims and their actions around the world.  It is about the I/P situation*  So why are you trying to hijack the thread and take the argument away from the I/P situation


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## Phoenall (Mar 27, 2014)

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The Palestinians exercised their right to free determination by granting Jordan governmental rights over the land and people of the west bank. In effect declaring their intentions to be Jordanian citizens on Jordanian land. Under International law this was legal and allowed and it fulfilled the rights of the citizens of the west bank. The Palestinians accepted Jordan as its new nation/nationality and took part in free elections to decide who would represent them in the Jordanian parliament. Jordan did not need to annexe the west bank the inhabitants handed it to them on a plate, all wrapped up in legal red tape .


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## Roudy (Mar 27, 2014)

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Again, it was the Muslims that tried to Islamicize Burma and started the violence and aggression. The Burmese decided not to put up with the usual shit from Muslims and did something about it. 

All you are doing is pointing out hotspots where Muslims aren't "winning" in their aggression against non Muslims.  

Islam is a cancer upon humanity. It cannot coexist with anybody. 

[ame="http://youtube.com/watch?v=HxFGbWewTqs"]http://youtube.com/watch?v=HxFGbWewTqs[/ame]


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## Roudy (Mar 27, 2014)

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This Sherri #3 even whines like Sherri #3. LOL


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## Sally (Mar 27, 2014)

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Hey, no problem, Phoenall.  We all know that there is more persecution of Christians by her Muslim brethren than there is persecution of Muslims.   Perhaps she can show us from some Congressional Record where they are bringing up the persecution of Christians in many locations.  People are becoming more aware that the Christians are the most persecuted group at this time, and the persecution is coming from the Muslims.  We all know how the Pope is worried about what is going on.


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## montelatici (Mar 27, 2014)

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We Christians are among the most persecuted, but the Muslims are a close second.  Christians and Muslims face terrible persecution in India where forced conversions to the Hindu religion are common. 

*Report documents persecution of Christians, Muslims in India*

Report documents persecution of Christians, Muslims in India : News Headlines - Catholic Culture


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## Roudy (Mar 27, 2014)

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You do know that Muslims have killed millions of Indians, in their quest for Jihad and conquest of India, don't you? You ignorant buffoon.
[ame="http://youtube.com/watch?v=9IstZSgniH8"]http://youtube.com/watch?v=9IstZSgniH8[/ame]


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## Roudy (Mar 27, 2014)

The death and destruction Islam left behind in India. The savages only know how to kill and destroy. 

[ame=http://youtube.com/watch?v=7wF-pqIyI6Q]Islam Destroyed Ancient Universities of India - YouTube[/ame]


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## Roudy (Mar 27, 2014)

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And 1.8 million Arabs are now Israeli citizens with full rights as others. 

Point?


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## montelatici (Mar 27, 2014)

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Now what does that have to do with Hindus persecuting Christians and Muslims in India?

 What is wrong with you, are you just a dimwitted  and don't understand you constantly post non sequiturs


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## Roudy (Mar 27, 2014)

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It has everything to do with it. Islam cannot coexist with anybody. It is a proven historical fact. They impose their own Islamic ideology and barbaric way if life, through violence if necessary. You cry like a baby for your fellow Muslims but you forget to tell everybody of the millions of Hindus killed at the hands of Islamic savage animals.


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## Phoenall (Mar 27, 2014)

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Your words from above
You are attempting to hijack a thread. This thread is not about criticizing Muslims and their actions around the world. It is about the I/P situation So why are you trying to hijack the thread and take the argument away from the I/P situation


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## montelatici (Mar 27, 2014)

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Jews co-existed with Muslims for centuries, in fact Jews were far better off in Muslim society than in Christian societies until the Zionists began settling in Palestine.  Christians generally forced Jews to convert, leave or be killed.  Why do you think so many Jews converted to Christianity or left Spain after the Christians after the Reconquista?  

You are either a bit dim, or know nothing about history.

But to your point.  So, you believe that when a poster shows the persecution of a certain group, they must also post links to the persecution of the persecutor.  Don't you think that would become tiresome? 

Plus, do you think because, for example, Christian Crusaders persecuted and murdered Muslims and Jews, it is ok for Muslims and Jews to persecute Christians.  I think that's how your pea brain works.


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## Sally (Mar 27, 2014)

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This peace by a Jewish man once living in the Muslim world is very interesting.

Who is an Arab Jew? by Albert Memmi

I once read a piece about a Jewish philosopher living in Italy in the 15th century.  One would have thought that he would have written about how the Catholics treated the Jews in Spain because of the Inquisition, but he stated that the biggest threat to the Jews in the future would be the Muslims.  How right he was.  Not only are they the biggest threat to the Jews, but we can see how persecuted the Christians are by them.

I actually have to laugh at this pipsqueak calling someone a peabrain as if she were a member of MENSA.


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## montelatici (Mar 27, 2014)

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I am actually.


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## Sally (Mar 27, 2014)

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Anyone on a message board can claim anything they want to, even little pipsqueaks.


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## montelatici (Mar 27, 2014)

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I realize that, only in this case it's true.  Note: I didn't bring it up, you did.


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## Sally (Mar 27, 2014)

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Yeah, yeah.  A smart girl belonging to MENSA would not be spending her life on a forum like she is working on a term project for the madrassa.  She would be doing more important things.  Say, why don't some of us claim to be prominent heart surgeons or head of some department in a famed hospital.  After all, if posters want to claim they are members of MENSA and get their jollies calling other peabrains, we can throw the bull too.


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## montelatici (Mar 27, 2014)

Whatever you say.


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## Sally (Mar 27, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Whatever you say.



You can tell the readers whatever you feel like saying -- how smart you are, that you know it all -- and they will get a big laugh from the entertainment.  So, Professor, carry on and call posters dimwitted and peabrains while you want to appear so intelligent.


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## montelatici (Mar 27, 2014)

I am happy you are being entertained, that's a good thing, right?


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## ForeverYoung436 (Mar 27, 2014)

I have been to Jerusalem and seen Christian monks, nuns and priests walk around in the different costumes of their various denominations.  Church bells ring, Arab Christian youths hawk their wares, while crosses line the quaint Armenian Quarter.  Where is this persecution of Christians that you speak of?


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## montelatici (Mar 27, 2014)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> I have been to Jerusalem and seen Christian monks, nuns and priests walk around in the different costumes of their various denominations.  Church bells ring, Arab Christian youths hawk their wares, while crosses line the quaint Armenian Quarter.  Where is this persecution of Christians that you speak of?



I just posted excerpts of the 2013 Human Rights Watch report.  You can read or not read it, but it certainly is more credible than an anecdotal comment.

This is not anecdotal:



"Being spat at remains part of life for Christians in Jerusalem"

" Ultra-Orthodox young men curse and spit at Christian clergymen in the streets of Jerusalems Old City as a matter of routine."


Being spat at remains part of life for Christians in Jerusalem


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## montelatici (Mar 27, 2014)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> I have been to Jerusalem and seen Christian monks, nuns and priests walk around in the different costumes of their various denominations.  Church bells ring, Arab Christian youths hawk their wares, while crosses line the quaint Armenian Quarter.  Where is this persecution of Christians that you speak of?



Sorry, it was posted on another thread:



Excerpts from Human Rights Watch "WORLD REPORT 2013"

"In the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, Israeli settlers injured 151 Palestinians as of November 27. Israel imposed severe restrictions on Palestinians right to freedom of movement, continued to build unlawful settlements in occupied territory, and arbitrarily detained Palestinians, including children and peaceful protesters.......Israeli forces also fired on and confiscated Palestinian fishing boats that sailed more than 3 nautical miles from the coast, prohibiting access to 85 percent of Gaza's maritime area under international law.....As of November 27, Israeli authorities had demolished 568 Palestinian homes and other buildings in the West Bank (including East Jerusalem), displacing 1,014 people.

Building permits are difficult or impossible for Palestinians to obtain in East Jerusalem or in the 60 percent of the West Bank under exclusive Israeli control (Area C), whereas a separate planning process readily granted settlers new construction permits. Israel approved donor-funded construction of 14 schools and 5 clinics for Palestinians in Area C, but threatened entire Palestinian communities with demolition, such as 8 villages in an area designated as a military training zone.

Settlers continued to take over Palestinian homes in East Jerusalem, based in part on discriminatory laws that recognize Jewish ownership claims there from before 1948, but bar Palestinian ownership claims from that period in West Jerusalem......Israel maintained onerous restrictions on the movement of Palestinians in the West Bank, including checkpoints, closure obstacles, and the separation barrier. Settlement-related movement restrictions forced around 190,000 Palestinians to take time-consuming detours rather than the most direct route to nearby cities, the UN reported.

Israel continued construction of the separation barrier around East Jerusalem. Some 85 percent of the barrier's route falls within the West Bank, isolating 11,000 Palestinians who are barred from traveling to Israel and who must cross the barrier to access livelihoods and services in the West Bank, and separated Palestinian farmers and landowners in 150 communities from their lands, the UN reported......Israeli military authorities detained Palestinians who advocated non-violent protest against Israeli settlements and the route of the separation barrier. In May, an Israeli military court sentenced Palestinian activist Bassem Tamimi to 13 months in prison for leading demonstrations against land confiscation, in violation of his right to peaceful assembly, and for urging children to throw stones. The conviction on the latter charge was based primarily on a child's coerced statement.

Israeli authorities continued to arrest children suspected of criminal offenses, usually stone-throwing, in their homes at night, at gunpoint, question them without a family member or a lawyer present, and coerce them to sign confessions in Hebrew, which they did not understand......Bedouin citizens of Israel who live in unrecognized villages suffered discriminatory home demolitions on the basis that their homes were built illegally. Israeli authorities refused to prepare plans for the communities and to approve construction permits, and rejected plans submitted by the communities themselves, but have retroactively legalized Jewish-owned private farms and planned new Jewish communities in the same areas. In 2012, the Israel Land Administration demolished 47 Bedouin structures as of September, , not including tents erected by villagers from al-Arakib, which Israeli authorities have demolished 39 times the Bedouin-rights group Dukium reported."


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## Hossfly (Mar 27, 2014)

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How come you weren't at the last meeting? I didn't see you there. Sick in bed?


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## montelatici (Mar 27, 2014)

Didn't see you at Carpaccio's last month.


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## Sally (Mar 27, 2014)

montelatici said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > I have been to Jerusalem and seen Christian monks, nuns and priests walk around in the different costumes of their various denominations.  Church bells ring, Arab Christian youths hawk their wares, while crosses line the quaint Armenian Quarter.  Where is this persecution of Christians that you speak of?
> ...



Yes, the Human Rights Watch is so unbiased towarded Israel.

Human Rights Watch (HRW) in 2010: More Bias, Even Less Credibility


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## Sally (Mar 27, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Didn't see you at Carpaccio's last month.



You were spotted at a C.A.I.R. meeting where you were given your latest instructions.


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## GISMYS (Mar 27, 2014)

WORDS FOR TODAY WRITTEN OVER 3000 YEARS AGO. GOD is awesome!!! HUH??
 O God!
Do not hold Your peace,
And do not be still, O God!
2 
For behold, Your enemies make a tumult;
And those who hate You have lifted up their head.
3 
They have taken crafty counsel against Your people,
And consulted together against Your sheltered ones.
4 
They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation,
That the name of Israel may be remembered no more.
5 
For they have consulted together with one consent;
They form a confederacy against You. psalm 83:1-5


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## montelatici (Mar 27, 2014)

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Human Rights Watch is the most neutral of organizations of this type.  They criticize all parties in a conflict fairly.  It's just that Israeli supporters won't accept criticism.

For example from the same Human Rights Watch report:

"Hamas authorities in Gaza carried out six judicial executions in 2012, including after unfair trials, and men whom witnesses said were members of Hamass armed wing claimed responsibility for seven extrajudicial executions in November. The authorities frequently denied detainees access to their lawyers. Security forces conducted arbitrary arrests and tortured detainees. The authorities permitted some local human rights organizations to operate, but suppressed political dissent, free association, and peaceful assembly. Palestinian armed groups in Gaza launched more than 1,400 rockets that struck inside Israel as of November 2012, killing three civilians; a mortar shell killed a fourth civilian. The vast majority of rockets were launched indiscriminately towards populated areas."


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## jillian (Mar 27, 2014)

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why do you  think human rights watch is fair on this subject? because they say what you want them to?

reality --- when you lob missiles into someone else's territory (i.e., Israel) people get hurt.

let me know when you or human rights watch understands that equation.


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## Sally (Mar 27, 2014)

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Now isn't that strange because others think it is not neutral but is biased against israel.  However, if you want the readers to think they are oh so unbiased, go for it.  Why don't you tell your brethren to stop trying tio destroy Israel and then no one will get hurt.

It really is a hoot how we keep on seeing the same stuff brought up time and time again on this forum ad nauseam with the various posters popping up and dragging up the same old, same old when so many worse things are happening to innocent people in many parts of the Muslim world.


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## montelatici (Mar 27, 2014)

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Wait a minute, the Human Rights Watch you quoted accuses Hamas of torture and of firing 1,400 rockets indiscriminately towards population areas of Israel and you complain about Human Rights Watch?  Are you just a reflexive poster that doesn't read what's before him?


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## montelatici (Mar 27, 2014)

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Only Israeli right or wrong nutcases and rabid Islamists believe it is biased.  Normal people believe it is the best and most neutral organization of its kind. This report was just issued, it is for 2013 so it has not been brought up before.


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## GISMYS (Mar 27, 2014)

WORDS FOR TODAY WRITTEN OVER 3000 YEARS AGO. GOD is awesome!!! HUH??
O God!
Do not hold Your peace,
And do not be still, O God!
2 
For behold, Your enemies make a tumult;
And those who hate You have lifted up their head.
3 
They have taken crafty counsel against Your people,
And consulted together against Your sheltered ones.
4 
They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation,
That the name of Israel may be remembered no more.
5 
For they have consulted together with one consent;
They form a confederacy against You. psalm 83:1-5 
Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east. ZEC 14:2-4===the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:
Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.
13 
It shall come to pass in that day
That a great panic from the Lord will be among them.
NUKES?????


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## Sally (Mar 27, 2014)

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Hey, no one is saying that you can't believe they are neutral if that is what floats your boat.  I am sure y ou will agree that others can have their own opinion about this organization being biased against Israel.  Let me repeat.  We have heard this same stuff ad nauseam so many times from posters just like you.  I think most people are not interested in old stuff, but what is happening in the world of today.  Say, have you ever thought that some of the readers would consider you a nut case?  After all, you are not the only one who can think people are nut cases.


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## Roudy (Mar 27, 2014)

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> ...


Would you like to compare the "persecution" of Christians by Hindus to what Muslims are doing to non Muslims all over the world? It does not even compare.  Muslims are barbaric savages who think they are doing Gods work when they kill and oppress the non Muslims.

I know many Middle Eastern Jews who fled from Arab Muslim shitholes to India and have nothing but good things to say about the treatment they received.  Indian Hindus surprisingly were very tolerant and accepting of other religions, especially Jews and Christians.

And Jews who lived in Muslim countries lived as second class citizens, in an apartheid like system treated as subhumans and slaves.  As Islam started sweeping the region, Jews and Christians were oppressed more and more.  Arabs who were tolerant to Jews or Christians were so in spite of Islam, not because of. A good example of this is during the Shah of Iran's time, Jews and Christians lived as equal citizens, because it was a secular state, however when the Islamists took over, the shit of Islam hit the fan and all minorities more or less fled Iran. Christians in the Middle East were ethnically cleansed by Muslim animals.

And I didn't hear anything from you about the 1.2  million Jews that were killed, ethnically cleansed, and persecuted by Arabs.  Nor did I hear anything about the 80 million Hindus that were killed by Muslim animals until the partition and creation of the Islamic shithole state of Pakistan in the early 20th century.

Ignoramus keeps playing his violin for Palestinian terrorist animals. LOL


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## Phoenall (Mar 27, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...





 ISLAMONAZI PROPAGANDA that has no basis in reality. The Jews were persecuted and ethnically cleansed from all the Islamic nations since Mohamed wiped out the Jewish tribe in medina.

 It is you that is dim and needs to read some proper history books.

 You have tried to show that the Christians were being persecuted by the Jews until I gave you the link to a Christian site showing that it is the muslims doing it.

The Jews are not persecuting the Christians, far from they are saving them from muslim genocide


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## Phoenall (Mar 27, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Sally said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...






 Are you indeed, how much did it cost you to join ?


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## Phoenall (Mar 27, 2014)

montelatici said:


> sally said:
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> > montelatici said:
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 proof


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## Phoenall (Mar 27, 2014)

montelatici said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > I have been to Jerusalem and seen Christian monks, nuns and priests walk around in the different costumes of their various denominations.  Church bells ring, Arab Christian youths hawk their wares, while crosses line the quaint Armenian Quarter.  Where is this persecution of Christians that you speak of?
> ...






 So were does it mention Christians and persecution.    Another of topic deflection by the little boy


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## Phoenall (Mar 27, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Sally said:
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 They are so biased they might as well call themselves hamas


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## Phoenall (Mar 27, 2014)

montelatici said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...






 Get it right they pay lip service to the muslim breaches of humanitarian law every time they are shown to be anti Jewish. If Israel respond to a rocket killing a civilian HRW call it an unwarranted attack on gazan civilians.


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## Roudy (Mar 27, 2014)

Yep and despite all the demonization and bullshit Islamic anti semetic neo Nazi propaganda, the entire Christian world knows that all will be lost if Jerusalem was under the control of intolerant Muslim savages as opposed to Jews, who are great hosts and protectors of the rights of all religions and minorities. That is why the Baha'is have their main temple and center of their faith in Israel.  

Does this idiot really think that anybody trusts Muslims and especially PALESTINIANS to be as good hosts and caretakers of other faiths? 

 Let's do a short review of Muslim and Palestinian "respect" for other faiths in the last century.  All you will see is a trail of blood and desecration.


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## Phoenall (Mar 27, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Sally said:
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 A simple whois on HRW gives this, highlighted part is interesting

 Domain Name:HRW.ORG
Domain ID: D5105637-LROR
Creation Date: 1994-11-16T05:00:00Z
Updated Date: 2012-09-12T19:34:21Z
Registry Expiry Date: 2019-11-15T05:00:00Z
Sponsoring Registrar:Network Solutions, LLC (R63-LROR)
Sponsoring Registrar IANA ID: 2
WHOIS Server: 
Referral URL: 
Domain Status: clientTransferProhibited
Registrant ID:24077217-NSI
Registrant Name:Human Rights Watch
Registrant Organization:Human Rights Watch
Registrant Street: 350 Fifth Avenue, 34th Floor.
Registrant City:New York
Registrant State/Province:NY
Registrant Postal Code:10118
Registrant Country:US
Registrant Phone:+1.2122161241
Registrant Phone Ext: 
Registrant Fax: +1.2127361300
Registrant Fax Ext: 
Registrant Email:
Admin ID:24077218-NSI
*Admin Name:Walid Ayoub*


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## Roudy (Mar 27, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Sally said:
> ...


Osama Walid Bin Laden Ayoub Khara Kalb Heywan?


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## montelatici (Mar 27, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> montelatici said:
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> > jillian said:
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This is an annual report.  It covers human rights violations throughout the world. If Israelis bomb civilians they get the same treatment as when any other military bombs civilians.


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## montelatici (Mar 27, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Phoenall said:
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Human Rights Watch Board of Directors:

 Almost a third are Jewish. LOL

Board of Directors

Hassan Elmasry, Co-Chair [Bio]
Partner and Lead Portfolio Manager
Independent Franchise Partners, LLP

Joel Motley, Co-Chair [Bio]
Managing Director
Public Capital Advisors LLC


Wendy Keys, Vice Chair
Filmmaker
Former Executive Producer of Programming 
Film Society of Lincoln Center

Susan Manilow, Vice Chair [Bio]
Human Rights Activist

Jean-Louis Servan-Schreiber
Editor and Publisher 
CLÉS Magazines

Sid Sheinberg, Vice Chair [Bio]
Partner 
The Bubble Factory
Former COO of MCA/Universal

John J. Studzinski CBE, Vice Chair [Bio]
Global Head, Blackstone Advisory Partners L.P. 
The Blackstone Group

Michael G. Fisch
President and Chief Executive Officer
American Securities, LLC

Bruce Rabb, Secretary [Bio]
Legal Advisor to Non-Profit Organizations

Karen Herskovitz Ackman 
Landscape Architect

Jorge Castañeda
Professor
New YorkUniversity
Former Foreign Minister of Mexico

Tony Elliott
Chairman
Time Out Group

Michael E. Gellert
General Partner
Windcrest Partners

Hina Jilani
Director  
AGHS Legal Aid Center
Former Special Representative of the UN Secretary General on Human Rights Defenders

Betsy Karel
Photographer
Chair, Trellis Fund

Robert Kissane
President
CCS

Kimberly Marteau Emerson
Principal
KME Consulting

Oki Matsumoto 
Chairman & Chief Executive Officer
Monex Group, Inc.

Barry M. Meyer
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer
Warner Bros. Entertainment Inc.

Aoife OBrien 
Human Rights Activist
Writer and Journalist

Joan R. Platt
Human Rights Activist

Neil Rimer
Co-Founder and General Partner
Index Ventures

Amy Rao
Founder and Chief Executive Officer  
Integrated Archive Systems

Victoria Riskin 
Human Rights Activist
Writer-Producer
Former President of the Writers Guild of America

Graham Robeson
Chairman, The 66 Humanitarian Foundation
Chairman, Banque Havilland

Shelley F. Rubin
Co-Founder
The Rubin Museum of Art

Kevin P. Ryan
Founder and Chief Executive Officer
Gilt Groupe

Ambassador Robin Sanders
FE3DS, LLC

Javier Solana
President 
ESADE Center for Global Economy and Geopolitics
Former Secretary General of NATO

Siri Stolt-Nielsen
Artist

Darian W. Swig
Human Rights Advocate
Founder & President
Article 3 Advisors

John R. Taylor
Managing Partner
Wellspring Advisors, LLC

Amy Towers
Founder
Nduna Foundation

Marie Warburg
Director
American Council on Germany 
Director 
US and German Friends of the Jewish Museum Berlin

Catherine Zennström 
Zennström Philanthropies


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## montelatici (Mar 27, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> Sallow said:
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Where did you come up with that? Why don't you try to post fact and not fiction. While Jews are fully entitled to believe what they want, they don't believe that Jesus Christ was a "minor" prophet.  They think he was basically, a charlatan.

"The belief that Jesus is God, the son of God, or a person of the Trinity, is incompatible with Jewish philosophical tenets. The same applies to belief in Jesus as the Messiah or a prophet of God: those beliefs are also contrary to traditional Jewish views. The idea of the Jewish Messiah is different from the Christian Christ because Jews believe Jesus did not fulfill Jewish Messianic prophecies that establish the criteria for the coming of the Messiah.[7] Authoritative texts of Judaism reject Jesus as God, Divine Being, intermediary between humans and God, Messiah or saint. The belief in the Trinity is also held to be incompatible with Judaism, see shituf, as are a number of other tenets of Christianity."

Judaism's view of Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## GISMYS (Mar 27, 2014)

NO WORRIES!!! THE JEWISH PEOPLE will see the light of truth===Mourning the One they Pierced
10"I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. 11"In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem. Zechariah 12:10-11


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## Sally (Mar 27, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Phoenall said:
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And the Muslims think quite differently from the Christians about Jesus.  As a Muslim woman poster once said "When Jesus returns, he will get rid of all the dogs and pigs (meaning the Christians and Jews) and will start preaching Islam"  Meanwhile, as we can see, the Muslims have no problems with murdering the Christians in Muslim countries.

The Muslim Jesus, known as ?Isa


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## montelatici (Mar 27, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Yep and despite all the demonization and bullshit Islamic anti semetic neo Nazi propaganda, the entire Christian world knows that all will be lost if Jerusalem was under the control of intolerant Muslim savages as opposed to Jews, who are great hosts and protectors of the rights of all religions and minorities. That is why the Baha'is have their main temple and center of their faith in Israel.
> 
> Does this idiot really think that anybody trusts Muslims and especially PALESTINIANS to be as good hosts and caretakers of other faiths?
> 
> Let's do a short review of Muslim and Palestinian "respect" for other faiths in the last century.  All you will see is a trail of blood and desecration.



"WASHINGTON  Figures with deep roots in Americas religious right have launched a quiet effort aimed at pushing evangelical Christians away from decades of growing loyalty to Israel and toward increased solidarity with the Palestinians. 

The campaign by a coalition of religious leaders, international nonprofits, and activists has taken place in recent years largely behind the scenes and away from the prying eyes of the political press  and its being driven by a generation of Evangelicals alienated by the way their faith was yoked to Republican foreign policy during the Bush years. Now, organizations like the Telos Group and the large Christian nonprofit World Vision have joined a small army of ministers and Christian opinion-makers working to reorient Evangelicals stance on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict  *producing documentaries about the plight of Palestinian Christians, providing theological rationale for a more balanced view of the issue, and taking Evangelicals on trips to the Middle East."*

New Evangelical Movement Seeks Split From Pro-Israel Line


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## montelatici (Mar 27, 2014)

Sally said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



I am sure this woman Muslim poster was a Koran scholar and this anecdotal story accurately represents Islamic scripture.

In fact,  the Koran states that "Jesus was born to Mary (Arabic: Maryam) as the result of virginal conception, a miraculous event which occurred by the decree of God (Arabic: Allah). To aid in his ministry to the Jewish people, Jesus was given the ability to perform miracles (such as healing the blind, bringing dead people back to life, etc.), all by the permission of God rather than of his own power. According to the Quran, Jesus, although appearing to have been crucified, was not killed by crucifixion or by any other means; instead, "God raised him unto Himself"....Numerous titles are given to Jesus in the Quran and in Islamic literature, the most common being al-Mas&#299;&#7717; ("the Messiah"). Jesus is also, at times, called "Seal of the Israelite Prophets", because, in general Muslim belief, Jesus was the last prophet sent by God to guide the Children of Israel. Jesus is seen in Islam as a precursor to Muhammad, and is believed by Muslims to have foretold the latter's coming.
Muslims believe that Jesus will return to earth near the Day of Judgment to restore justice and to defeat al-Masih ad-Dajjal ("the false messiah", also known as the Antichrist)."

Jesus in Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Sally (Mar 27, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Sally said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



Why not tell us what you and your fellow Muslims think about the Gospel of Barnabas. 

http://www.ahttp://www.gotquestions...ng-islam.org/authors/durie/islamic_jesus.html


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## montelatici (Mar 27, 2014)

Sally said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Sally said:
> ...



I am not sure what Muslims think about it, but as a practicing Roman Catholic, it is heresy to me.


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## Sally (Mar 27, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Sally said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



You sound more like those who are called White Widows except you conduct your Jihad on the Internet.  By the way, since you know how to use Wikipedia, surely you could do some research to see how your brethren feel about that fake Gospel. Ask around.  They might be happy to give you their individual thoughts.


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## Hossfly (Mar 27, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Sally said:
> 
> 
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A Catholic who says Hail Mariams?


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## Roudy (Mar 28, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Sallow said:
> ...


Judaism has no opinion of a Jesus, you moron, it came thousands of years before him. 

Individual Jews, may have differing views.


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## Roudy (Mar 28, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Yep and despite all the demonization and bullshit Islamic anti semetic neo Nazi propaganda, the entire Christian world knows that all will be lost if Jerusalem was under the control of intolerant Muslim savages as opposed to Jews, who are great hosts and protectors of the rights of all religions and minorities. That is why the Baha'is have their main temple and center of their faith in Israel.
> ...


Yawn, you IslamoNazi worshippers are so fickng predictable. It's always the same repetitive drivel with you guys.  

Same boring blah blah blah blah, over and over over . Almost like a Jewish wedding. Come up with something new once in a while.


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## jillian (Mar 28, 2014)

montelatici said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
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on the balance, they and amnesty int'l (to whom i used to donate money automatically every month) resent when israel defends itself. 

in answer to your question... no.

but i also don't mindlessly think an organization is fair because it has "human rights" in its name.... 

so you might want to reflect upon your own knee-jerk responses.


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## MrMax (Mar 28, 2014)

*Abbas suggests Obama promised 67 lines - E. Jerusalem*

Abbas would probably get more for his people than he's getting now if he just all-out surrendered.


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## Phoenall (Mar 28, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
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> > montelatici said:
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 According to you and the other islamonazis the gazans are all civilians, even when they get blown up by the explosives they are carrying. The fact is according to the Geneva convention s they are all militia for acting as human shields


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## Phoenall (Mar 28, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



were is your evidence of your claim ?


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## Phoenall (Mar 28, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
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 He is Still viewed as a minor prophet just not a messiah by the Jews


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## Phoenall (Mar 28, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Yep and despite all the demonization and bullshit Islamic anti semetic neo Nazi propaganda, the entire Christian world knows that all will be lost if Jerusalem was under the control of intolerant Muslim savages as opposed to Jews, who are great hosts and protectors of the rights of all religions and minorities. That is why the Baha'is have their main temple and center of their faith in Israel.
> ...



 More of topic deflection by the little boy


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## montelatici (Mar 28, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



It is the topic, punk.


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## Phoenall (Mar 28, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
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> > montelatici said:
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WRONG as the topic is Abbas claiming that Obama offered 67 borders. Not what right wing Nazis are doing to Christians    LITTLE BOY


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## aris2chat (Mar 28, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Sally said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
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The Epistle and Acts of Barnabas both date to the mid 1st Century.  The Gospel, of Spanish origin, was likely written in Islamic Andalusia.


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## aris2chat (Mar 28, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Yep and despite all the demonization and bullshit Islamic anti semetic neo Nazi propaganda, the entire Christian world knows that all will be lost if Jerusalem was under the control of intolerant Muslim savages as opposed to Jews, who are great hosts and protectors of the rights of all religions and minorities. That is why the Baha'is have their main temple and center of their faith in Israel.
> ...



They don't need Israel to take them on a trip.  They have been traveling to and from Israel/mandate for more than a century.  They have seen the development and growth of the jewish community and the protection or the christian sites, but jews.  Under the Ottoman and Islamic empire, it was not as easy for christians to travel, beside being unsafe.
Now with modern transportation from air planes to high speed trams, Jerusalem and the rest of Israel is accessible to not just the churches but new archeological sites.  Biblical history might not scientifically match the bible but the bible is a spiritual tale not an exact history.  We can learn more about the life and people during the times of the Bible stories.  Science and bible should complement each other not corroborate even detail.


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## Roudy (Mar 28, 2014)

Montelatici is engaging in Islamic mental masturbation and denial. They all do that. 

Vast majority of American Christians stand shoulder to shoulder with Israel and Israel is enjoyed record high approval among Americans. I bet that bugs the shit out of Mohommod Latici. Ha ha ha


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## montelatici (Mar 28, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Montelatici is engaging in Islamic mental masturbation and denial. They all do that.
> 
> Vast majority of American Christians stand shoulder to shoulder with Israel and Israel is enjoyed record high approval among Americans. I bet that bugs the shit out of Mohommod Latici. Ha ha ha



No, just presenting facts.


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## Roudy (Mar 28, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Montelatici is engaging in Islamic mental masturbation and denial. They all do that.
> ...


Facts are vast majority of American Christians stand shoulder to shoulder with Israel, and Israel is enjoying some its highest approval ratings while Palestinians are somewhere in the bottom. Those are the facts.  

Your facts are more like Islamic propaganda and bullshit.


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## montelatici (Mar 28, 2014)

These are Christian websites, how can it be Islamic propaganda?

Presbyterian:

"Palestinian Christians are under attack in Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories. 

Israeli settlers have been vandalizing Palestinian churches, monasteries, cemeteries, and other Christian institutions and property in alarming numbers over the past three years.   

These crimes are thought to be part of the larger &#8220;price-tag&#8221; movement, a campaign started by Israeli settlers in 2011 both to intimidate Palestinians into leaving their land and to establish a punitive &#8220;price&#8221; Palestinians must pay for perceived setbacks to the security and geographic expansion of the Jewish state."

Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) - News & Announcements - Palestinian Christians under attack


"


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## montelatici (Mar 28, 2014)

Roudy said:


> montelatici said:
> 
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> ...



Then there is the "Christ at the Checkpoint" which just finished their bi-annual meet at the Bethlehem Bible College. Another Christian website and group which reminded Christians that they can't ignore parts of the Bible because you might  disagree with them.  I think this was intended for the Christian Zionists.

"Mark 10:33
New Testament King James version:

"Saying, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles:"

Christ at the Checkpoint


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## Sally (Mar 28, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



Meanwhile,  I wonder if montelatici can tell us why this group is not complaining about the treatment of the Christians in Muslim countries.  Surely, such an "unbiased" group would be very busy condemning what is happening to their fellow Christians in Muslim countries since so many horrendous things are happening to them.  Could it be that they are not interested because there are no Jews involved.  I think most of us realize that in the U.S. the vast majority of Christians (plus those of other religions, as the Hindu posters who used to say "God Bless Israel"), are wholeheartedly for Israel.  Regardless of montelatici pulling this up once again and even if she pulls it up a thousand times, it will not change the fact about how most Americans feel about Israel.  As one Evangelical poster whose grandfather is a Pastor used to state, there are millions and millions of American Protestants who stand for Israel.


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## montelatici (Mar 28, 2014)

Sally said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
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Well, all I post is facts.  If you believe that the Presbyterians and the Evangelical Christians of Christ at the Checkpoint *are not* a sign of Christians changing their support to Christians in Palestine and Israel, then you should be content, correct?


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## Sally (Mar 28, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Sally said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



As one Evangelical calls them -- Pseudo Evangelicals.  I am still wondering if you can show us where these "unbiased" people are concerned about what is happening to their fellow Christians in the Muslim world.  Are they that asleep at the switch that they aren't aware of what is happening?  It's a shame that they weren't like Raymond Ibrahim who speaks up and tell it like it is.  Wouldn't it be nice if montelatici could show us what action these "unbiased" people are taking toward the mistreatment of Christians in the Muslim world?


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## montelatici (Mar 28, 2014)

True Christians are concerned about the persecution of Christians in general.  Not just persecution by Muslims.  You, I can see, are not a true Christian.  You are just a Muslim hater.


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## aris2chat (Mar 28, 2014)

montelatici said:


> These are Christian websites, how can it be Islamic propaganda?
> 
> Presbyterian:
> 
> ...



Christians in Israel have been given their own representation, legally.  They are not in danger except in the minds of hatemongers who are trying to cause trouble by spreading lies.  In Gaza christians are threatened or forced to convert.  In Israel religious freedom for all faiths is in the basic laws.


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## Sally (Mar 28, 2014)

montelatici said:


> True Christians are concerned about the persecution of Christians in general.  Not just persecution by Muslims.  You, I can see, are not a true Christian.  You are just a Muslim hater.



Actually many Christians in the U.S. don't have a very good idea of what your brethren are doing to them.  If I were such a Muslim hater, I would not cringe every time I read about one of your sects blowing up the other sect and innocent people are killed and wounded.  It is amusing, though, to see the Muslims blurt out "You are just a Muslim hater."  It's like they get it from a script.  However, I am still wondering if you have any information about this Evangelical group you mentioned trying to spread the word about what is happening to Christians in the Muslim world.


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## montelatici (Mar 28, 2014)

Sally said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > True Christians are concerned about the persecution of Christians in general.  Not just persecution by Muslims.  You, I can see, are not a true Christian.  You are just a Muslim hater.
> ...



"The Catholic Church has lashed out at the Israeli government, after its property in East Jerusalem was bulldozed to the ground. Meanwhile, thousands of Palestinian flats were marked for demolition just before US Secretary of State John Kerrys visit.

Last week Israeli security forces arrived with bulldozers at a piece of property owned by the Catholic Church in east Jerusalem, close to the West Bank city of Bethlehem. They said it had been built without a permit and proceeded to destroy it.

This provoked a backlash from the head of the Catholic Church in Israel who said the demolition was carried out without any prior warning."


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## montelatici (Mar 28, 2014)

The Catholic Church, with 1.5 billion members is not a cult.


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## Sally (Mar 28, 2014)

montelatici said:


> The Catholic Church, with 1.5 billion members is not a cult.



Who said the Catholic Church is a cult.  It is a major religion.  Meanwhile, I am wondering if the Evangelical group you mentioned is worried about the Christians worldwide.  Do they have something like the following to tell people what is happening?

Persecution News of Churches Persecuted & Christian Sufferings

https://www.persecution.com/

CHRISTIANITY: THE MOST PERSECUTED WORLD FAITH


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## P F Tinmore (Mar 28, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Yep and despite all the demonization and bullshit Islamic anti semetic neo Nazi propaganda, the entire Christian world knows that all will be lost if Jerusalem was under the control of intolerant Muslim savages as opposed to Jews, who are great hosts and protectors of the rights of all religions and minorities. That is why the Baha'is have their main temple and center of their faith in Israel.
> ...



Presented at the Friends of Sabeel North America Conference held at the Immanuel Presbyterian Church, Albuquerque NM

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiD3T2iVcoc]Ali Abunimah | Standing Up for Justice and Equal Rights in Palestine: How to Win the Struggle Ahead - YouTube[/ame]


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## aris2chat (Mar 29, 2014)

montelatici said:


> These are Christian websites, how can it be Islamic propaganda?
> 
> Presbyterian:
> 
> ...



Welcome - Christians United for Israel


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## toastman (Mar 29, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Lol!!


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## MrMax (Mar 29, 2014)

montelatici said:


> The Catholic Church, with 1.5 billion members is not a cult.


"A cult is a religious group or other organization with deviant and novel beliefs and practices."
Cult - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sounds about right.


----------

