# Is needing or wanting to worshiping a God a human defect or benefit?



## GreatestIam (Jul 15, 2013)

Is needing or wanting to worshiping a God a human defect or benefit?

Gods have no needs or wants that man can assuage. Gods are said to be so high above us that for any God to have such a need would be like man craving the adoration of germs.

I see us as just as foolish as germs and the creatures shown in this clip as we act the same way.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4a_uwyY_H4]MIB2 All Hail J - YouTube[/ame]

I can see where at one time it would have been profitable to bend the knee to King/Gods as in the original archetype city states, as used in the original Eden myth written by the Jews, but not today.

That myth I think was written of the following reality.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ9cvYB7Tes]Bible's Buried Secrets (BBC) Ep.3: The real garden of Eden (1/4) - YouTube[/ame]

Our present secular systems of governance have bested the Gods in the moral and legal senses and only the really right wing theists would want to live under the laws of the old barbaric Gods.

I am not an atheist and seek God to appease what I recognize as my spiritual side. But not to bend the knee or adore; just to improve any defect in my thinking; if I have one.  

I know that there are way more followers out there than leaders but cannot fathom why someone would want to lower themselves to adore even a God unless it is strictly as a self-serving action that we hope God will recognize and reward.

That is hardly being good for goodness sake. God would know and send such hypocrites to hell. Which scriptures say is where the vast majority of us will end up regardless.

That means that you, even if you pray daily and hard, are likely going to hell along with most of those you know. In a sense, you should feel sorry for those few who make it to heaven as they must spend eternity watching their loved ones in purposeless torture. That would drive any moral person insane.

Gods have no needs or wants and has no rewards to give in exchange for what Gods have no need or want of.

The Godhead I know certainly disavows such a need or want.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkT1-N0VqUc]What Does God Need With a Starship? - YouTube[/ame]


Why then, if you are a believer, do you need or want to worship a God if not for the reward you think it will bring you?

Is your need to adore a God a defect or benefit?

Regards
DL


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## theword (Jul 15, 2013)

It's obvious you've never been humbled by our Creator.


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## GreatestIam (Jul 15, 2013)

theword said:


> It's obvious you've never been humbled by our Creator.



Now why would a God want to humble his greatest creation?

God would have to want to humble me and as I said, God has no wants or needs.

Regards
DL


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## Surfer (Jul 15, 2013)

We are born with a hole in our soul that only God can fill. Godless people are missing out on the joy of the relationship, comfort, security, and peace of mind that worshiping God/Jesus Christ brings.


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## Skull Pilot (Jul 15, 2013)

Surfer said:


> We are born with a hole in our soul that only God can fill. Godless people are missing out on the joy of the relationship, comfort, security, and peace of mind that worshiping God/Jesus Christ brings.



You can't have a relationship with something that doesn't exist.

I had an imaginary friend when I was a kid but I grew out of it.  Just like I grew out of the god thing.


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## theword (Jul 15, 2013)

GreatestIam said:


> theword said:
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You won't be able to keep your flesh from dying according to our Creator's plan.


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## theword (Jul 15, 2013)

Surfer said:


> We are born with a hole in our soul that only God can fill. Godless people are missing out on the joy of the relationship, comfort, security, and peace of mind that worshiping God/Jesus Christ brings.



There's no such thing as a hole in a soul. The soul of a man contains false information that makes him believe in it rather than understanding who he truly is in our Creator's thoughts.


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## dblack (Jul 15, 2013)

Historically, I think it's been a tremendous benefit. Not sure how civilized societies could have developed without it. That said, I see no reason why we can't develop a more sophisticated understanding of religious phenomena.


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## theword (Jul 15, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> Surfer said:
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> > We are born with a hole in our soul that only God can fill. Godless people are missing out on the joy of the relationship, comfort, security, and peace of mind that worshiping God/Jesus Christ brings.
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All religions were used by our Creator to keep men focused on this world instead of knowing what energy was about. Not even scientists understand energy, yet, but the last saint does.


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## theword (Jul 15, 2013)

dblack said:


> Historically, I think it's been a tremendous benefit. Not sure how civilized societies could have developed without it. That said, I see no reason why we can't develop a more sophisticated understanding of religious phenomena.



You should be a king in a religious kingdom.


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## KevinWestern (Jul 15, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> Surfer said:
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> > We are born with a hole in our soul that only God can fill. Godless people are missing out on the joy of the relationship, comfort, security, and peace of mind that worshiping God/Jesus Christ brings.
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Personally, I think it's sort of foolish to say (in a definitive way) that something "doesn't exist", given that no human has ever traveled much further past our moon (lol), and that distance covers literally an *infinitely small patch* of our Universe. Fact is, we have no clue what's out there. I personally think anything is possible. 

Wouldn't it make more sense to simply say "I don't know"? Not calling you out or anything, just challenging your thinking. 

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## Surfer (Jul 15, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> You can't have a relationship with something that doesn't exist.
> I had an imaginary friend when I was a kid but I grew out of it.  Just like I grew out of the god thing.



God does exist: He is The Great I Am--the Is, Was and Always will be. His son, Jesus Christ, died on the cross for our sins. Believing in Him, receiving/accepting Him as our Lord and Savior, repenting, establishing a relationship with Him etc gets us into Heaven. How sad for you that you won't be there.


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## theword (Jul 15, 2013)

Surfer said:


> Skull Pilot said:
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And you're a religious liar who believes in the Roman religious fairy tales.


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## KevinWestern (Jul 15, 2013)

Surfer said:


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I certainly believe that a God might exist, but personally believe that it makes more sense to take on an &#8220;evolving&#8221; path to spirituality verses one that is set in stone, and was written down thousands of years ago by men just like yourself. 

We, as a human race, have allowed ourselves to evolve in so many beneficial ways over the past 1,000 years; why should our approach to spirituality remain stagnant and unchanging? 

Wouldn&#8217;t it make sense to leave the gates to that journey open, and say that the possibilities are endless (given that &#8211; at the end of the day &#8211; we really don&#8217;t know ANYTHING at all about this grand and mysterious universe)? 

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## Surfer (Jul 15, 2013)

p.s. It's a benefit: a gift. God loves when we worship Him.


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## itfitzme (Jul 15, 2013)

It is simply a concept, developed by man, to organize individual and group understanding.  It serves as the first philosophical attempt at individual psychology, societal law and socieconomic organization.  Framing it as a "defect or a benefit" kinda misses the point. 

Was the knife a benefit or a mistake?  It depends on if it is in the hands of Julia Childs or Freddy Krugger.

Life isn't a science experiment, unfortunately.


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## GreatestIam (Jul 15, 2013)

Surfer said:


> We are born with a hole in our soul that only God can fill. Godless people are missing out on the joy of the relationship, comfort, security, and peace of mind that worshiping God/Jesus Christ brings.



Why would God create you with a hole in your soul?
Why would he create you ill and demand that you be well?

I can appreciate how you would go for the self-serving and selfish joy of the relationship, comfort, security, and peace of mind that worshiping God/Jesus Christ brings, but cannot fathom why you would sell your soul to Satan for that warm fuzzy feeling.

You have to embrace barbaric and immoral human sacrifice and the notion that it is good to punish the innocent instead of the guilty to believe in your Jesus Christ.

God would not let those of such poor morals into heaven so enjoy all the things you name now because when you die, Satan will ask you; How was your ticket to heaven purchased? With innocent blood? 

When you say yes, you become his.

Regards
DL


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## GreatestIam (Jul 15, 2013)

theword said:


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Who need flesh after death. Go away fool and stop following me all over the place.

Regards
DL


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## GreatestIam (Jul 15, 2013)

dblack said:


> Historically, I think it's been a tremendous benefit. Not sure how civilized societies could have developed without it. That said, I see no reason why we can't develop a more sophisticated understanding of religious phenomena.



We do have a more sophisticated understanding of religious phenomena. We recognize them as fantasy along with foolish beliefs in miracles and magic.

What benefits do see in history other than those of various religions killing each other for the supremacy of their invisible absentee Gods?

Regards
DL


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## GreatestIam (Jul 15, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


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If we cannot know, how is it that the religious all seem to know?

Regards
DL


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## GreatestIam (Jul 15, 2013)

Surfer said:


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Jesus said that those who believe in him will never die and that they could do even greater works than he did.

What are you waiting for to save the 10 million or so that will starve this year?

Show your faith and do your deeds or be seen as not believing at all.

Regards
DL


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## Skull Pilot (Jul 15, 2013)

Surfer said:


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I'm not worried about it.

Heaven is a fairy tale for those too weak minded to deal with the fact that they will die.


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## KevinWestern (Jul 15, 2013)

GreatestIam said:


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Have no idea. I'd like to see a much more open and evolving approach to religion.


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## GreatestIam (Jul 15, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


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You sound like a good candidate for being a Gnostic Christian like myself.

Have a look at this clip that shows the way to apotheosis. It is not quite the method that worked for me but it is the closest that I have found.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdSVl_HOo8Y]1A Hidden Meanings In Bible - YouTube[/ame]

Regards
DL


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## Skull Pilot (Jul 15, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


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Yeah the whole agnosticism is the only rational choice argument has merit.

But it seems wishy washy to me so I just go all in for the atheist argument.

If I'm wrong there's always Pascal's wager.


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## itfitzme (Jul 15, 2013)

GreatestIam said:


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Yeah, there is always a lack of symetry.  

And god plays hide and go seek.  He is everywhere, and yet nowhere.


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## GreatestIam (Jul 15, 2013)

Surfer said:


> p.s. It's a benefit: a gift. God loves when we worship Him.





He told you did he?

Regards
DL


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## GreatestIam (Jul 15, 2013)

itfitzme said:


> It is simply a concept, developed by man, to organize individual and group understanding.  It serves as the first philosophical attempt at individual psychology, societal law and socieconomic organization.  Framing it as a "defect or a benefit" kinda misses the point.
> 
> Was the knife a benefit or a mistake?  It depends on if it is in the hands of Julia Childs or Freddy Krugger.
> 
> Life isn't a science experiment, unfortunately.



Not to argue but if you watched that Eden clip, you will note that the king controlled the socioeconomic situation and not the God.

Unless you want God to have invented temple prostitution.

Quite the choice eh? 

Regards
DL


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## GreatestIam (Jul 15, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


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Ditto.

I my sound like an atheist sometimes but I am not.

I do not have faith. Apotheosis has given me belief. I have no proof though.

You would lie this Bishop I think.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AfFcAmx-Ro&feature=relmfu]Controversial retired bishop John Spong on religion. full sh - YouTube[/ame]

Regards
DL


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## amrchaos (Jul 15, 2013)

Maybe it is both?

It is a defect because we can't tell which god/religion is true or false on the face of it.

However it is a benefit because it helps us herd the sheep into obdient flocks for those that realize this simple fact.

Just remember--simple facts imply beliefs, establish truths.


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## GreatestIam (Jul 15, 2013)

amrchaos said:


> Maybe it is both?
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> It is a defect because we can't tell which god/religion is true or false on the face of it.
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Sheep are good for fleecing and butchering.

That is why churches like them.

Regards
DL


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## dblack (Jul 15, 2013)

GreatestIam said:


> dblack said:
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I honestly regard that as a grossly un-sophisticated understanding. There's clearly something fundamental to human societies going on with religion. it seems foolish to dismiss that out of hand. Especially when so much of our culture has derived from it - up to and including scientific materialism.


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## GreatestIam (Jul 15, 2013)

dblack said:


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Social manipulation and control is hardly sophisticated.

Your regard did not answer the question posed. 

Your answer might give sophistication if you can fill the blanks that you elude to.

I will not ask again. Please make your point

Regards
DL


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## dblack (Jul 15, 2013)

GreatestIam said:


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Nah. You don't really seem interested. No worries.


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## Surfer (Jul 15, 2013)

GreatestIam said:


> 1--Why would God create you with a hole in your soul?
> 2--Why would he create you ill and demand that you be well?
> 3--I can appreciate how you would go for the self-serving and selfish joy of the relationship, comfort, security, and peace of mind that worshiping God/Jesus Christ brings, but cannot fathom why you would sell your soul to Satan for that warm fuzzy feeling.
> 4--You have to embrace barbaric and immoral human sacrifice and the notion that it is good to punish the innocent instead of the guilty to believe in your Jesus Christ.
> 5--God would not let those of such poor morals into heaven so enjoy all the things you name now because when you die, Satan will ask you; How was your ticket to heaven purchased? With innocent blood?..



1--So that you find your way back to Him. So you search for Him. For some it takes their whole lives. Some of us "get it" early.
2-- I was never ill.
3-- I sold my soul to no one. I GAVE my heart, soul, spirit, body (and everything else) to Jesus Christ. In return I get eternal life and a GLORIOUS life here on earth. I got the MUCH better end of the deal!
4-- Not true. I am a New Testament Born-Again Christian.
5-- My morals are like Jesus'. I am an angel!  When I die I will go straight to Heaven to spend eternity with Jesus Christ/God. Satan will be frying in Hell with his kids.



Skull Pilot said:


> I'm not worried about it.Heaven is a fairy tale for those too weak minded to deal with the fact that they will die.



You will be when you're on your deathbed. You'll be one of the losers who begs, pleads and bargains with God for salvation, Heaven, and eternal life. Unless you die suddenly. Then you will just go straight to Hell and have no chance to get a deathbed deliverance like so many liberal loons.
Heaven is real and is for God's kids.



GreatestIam said:


> He told you did he?



Yep. In his handbook for everyday life aka The Bible.


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## GreatestIam (Jul 16, 2013)

Being born again does not negate that you will use Jesys as your scapegoat redeemer.

You have to embrace barbaric and immoral human sacrifice and the notion that it is good to punish the innocent instead of the guilty to believe in your Jesus Christ.

Your religion has corrupted your morals.

In reality, if God did demand such a barbaric sacrifice, he would be sinning.
He would know that barbaric human sacrifice is immoral.

You do too. Right?

Those with good morals will know that no noble and gracious God would demand the sacrifice of a so called son just to prove it's benevolence.

When you die, Satan will ask you; How was your ticket to heaven purchased? With innocent blood? 

When you say yes, you become his.

Regards
DL


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## Surfer (Jul 16, 2013)

GreatestIam said:


> Being born again does not negate that you will use Jesys as your scapegoat redeemer...



You already posted the same crap. Doing it twice does not make it true. Master Christianity and then we can discuss your preposterous ideas/thoughts. Sheesh...


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## GreatestIam (Jul 16, 2013)

Surfer said:


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I will let deluded fools master fantasy, miracles and magic.

Enjoy your delusions and follow your genocidal son murdering God.
He will lead you straight to hell.

Regards
DL


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## hobelim (Jul 16, 2013)

GreatestIam said:


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Why type of person anyway would find the specious promise that they could escape the consequences for their own actions as long as they were OK with Jesus being tortured and killed instead morally acceptable or even tempting?

If Jesus ever actually shows up I'm sure he will be extremely impressed by their love for him.......


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## theword (Jul 16, 2013)

GreatestIam said:


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The only way we can experience information is by having a body with a processor to process information into information we can understand, which is happening in this world. The body contains a brain (processor, which is also made up of information) to process other information to give us defined worlds to experience.  Information without being processed into understandable information cannot be experienced. Just ask any 0's and 1's in a binary computer code.


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## Staidhup (Jul 16, 2013)

One God, not a God. So when everything is imploding around you and you have nothing left, Baal has deserted you, humanism has left you all alone in misery, who do you turn to, and what will give you the strength to overcome and prevail? When you choose not to live by the laws handed down by Moses you will suffer, society will suffer. When you embrace sin you are doomed to perish. God simply provides the strength and wisdom to prevail, prosper, live in peace, and yet all he asks in return is obedience to his laws, and only believe in one God.


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## Staidhup (Jul 16, 2013)

GreatestIam said:


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So how can there be a hell if there is not a God? Do you profess that Satan exists and yet not the antithesis, God? Is not one the belief in the Angel of sin exiled from heaven and the other the son of God?


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## Surfer (Jul 16, 2013)

GreatestIam said:


> ...Enjoy your delusions and follow your genocidal son murdering God...



No delusions: just fact. Remember this as you fry in Hell for eternity screaming in agony with unquenchable thirst and scorching flesh. Too bad. So sad...


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## daws101 (Jul 16, 2013)

Surfer said:


> GreatestIam said:
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and they say christianity makes no threats ....


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## Surfer (Jul 16, 2013)

daws101 said:


> and they say christianity makes no threats ....



No threat: just facts...


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## hobelim (Jul 17, 2013)

daws101 said:


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He is just trying to save you from what he fears..

Just think!

 If you would only disable your rational mind and just believe that God impregnated a virgin to father himself so he could become fully human without a human father only to performed some magic tricks, teach the exact opposite of what was revealed through the law and the prophets and then turn himself into a cracker and floated up into the sky after he was tortured and killed because he loved the world so much you too can become a gibbering idiot while you are alive who won't have to worry about fire or being thirsty after you are dead.


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## GreatestIam (Jul 17, 2013)

hobelim said:


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The type that Jesus would condemn to hell.

Check the numbers. The large number represents Christians who would pass the nails to the Romans to insure their savior saves them.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKOjV-wtpPc]South Park Kenny goes to Hell - YouTube[/ame]

Regards
DL


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## GreatestIam (Jul 17, 2013)

theword said:


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Good. Your non-corporeal God cannot think as he has nothing to think with.
Go away stalker.

Regards
DL


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## GreatestIam (Jul 17, 2013)

Staidhup said:


> One God, not a God. So when everything is imploding around you and you have nothing left, Baal has deserted you, humanism has left you all alone in misery, who do you turn to, and what will give you the strength to overcome and prevail? When you choose not to live by the laws handed down by Moses you will suffer, society will suffer. When you embrace sin you are doomed to perish. God simply provides the strength and wisdom to prevail, prosper, live in peace, and yet all he asks in return is obedience to his laws, and only believe in one God.



He does not ask. He commands like all good genocidal son murdering tyrants.

Regards
DL


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## GreatestIam (Jul 17, 2013)

Staidhup said:


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Who said there was no God?
Get the quote.

Does Satan exist?

You exist. Do you have an antithesis?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc]'Hell' as an invention of the church - YouTube[/ame]

Regards
DL


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## GreatestIam (Jul 17, 2013)

Surfer said:


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Better to shovel coal in hell than to spend eternity in heaven watching friends, neighbors and our children in torture and flame forever.

Only a sick mind like you have shown yours to be would conceive of such a situation or wish it upon anyone or gain pleasure from it. That is why God would not do such because then, heaven would be hell.

If those in heaven did not go insane then they could not have once been human or good.

You should think of hell just a bit and recognize that God would not create such an immoral construct. Lose your barbaric tribal mentality. We are in 2013, not 113.

Regards
DL


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## Jimmy_Jam (Jul 17, 2013)

Re: the OP:

Defect or benefit, it is part of the human condition. Carl Jung held that to attempt to dislocate the spiritual drive means human beings must replace it with something else that is revered with similar adoration. For atheists, this usually (but not always) comes in the form of adoration for the state or for science. He lived in Europe during a time when adoration of the state was like an illness.

Many things are part of the human condition: fear, love, compassion, cruelty, faith, exaggeration, and so on. While all of these may not necessarily serve us well all the time, they all stem from something that is inherent and has a purpose. As much as some atheists may want to erase religion from the face of the earth, the need to have faith or to believe in something greater than oneself cannot be erased and will continue to manifest itself in one form or another. 

Defect or benefit, it doesn't matter. It's there. Fear does not always manifest itself in useful ways, but it is there for a reason and is necessary. The same goes for the need referenced in the OP. While it may manifest itself in negative ways, it is a necessary part of our being. As such, I try not to dislocate it.


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## oldfart (Jul 17, 2013)

Jimmy_Jam said:


> Re: the OP:



The OP?  You mean the thread has gotten off topic?  Say it isn't so!  [remove tongue from cheek]

Seriously, it's a good topic and deserves thoughtful discussion.  Thank you for returning the thread to it!



Jimmy_Jam said:


> Defect or benefit, it is part of the human condition. Carl Jung held that to attempt to dislocate the spiritual drive means human beings must replace it with something else that is revered with similar adoration. For atheists, this usually (but not always) comes in the form of adoration for the state or for science. He lived in Europe during a time when adoration of the state was like an illness.



I approach most of these type of questions (questions of meaning) from a different starting point, and one of the great challenges is to translate the various "Christian" theologies into that frame of reference, and the process of that frame of reference into something "Christians" can recognize and evaluate.  I think that Jung is fundamentally mistaken here.  He observes a "spiritual drive" or impulse and decides that it is innate rather than a result of socialization.  Therefore this impulse must find an outlet somewhere; if not religion, then state-worship or some kind of "movement" greater than the member.  But is the premise true?  Is there an innate impulse to worship something?

Personally I believe there is not.  This is a learned behavior.  I do not see it in small children, it develops around ages 3--5 as part of the socialization by parents.  Now if this socialization is not present, regardless of source, do we see a need to "worship" or adore some concept?  In infancy there is a bonding with caregiving parents which reflects the infant's absolute dependence for all things necessary for life.  When this attachment wanes and the child develops independence, the follow-on is a wider circle of human attachments, not an abstract concept.  

Now this does not mean I believe that "atheists" are any less prone to a need for belief.  I just think that this is a result of socialization.  What kicks in is self-awareness.  With self-awareness comes a concern about purpose and meaning.  This I think IS an innate drive that develops from biology and neural development independent of socialization.  All humans to one degree or another struggle with their place in the world at about the same stage in development.  Socialization ("rites of passage") are intended to ease this process, but they do not create the need for it.  



Jimmy_Jam said:


> Many things are part of the human condition: fear, love, compassion, cruelty, faith, exaggeration, and so on. While all of these may not necessarily serve us well all the time, they all stem from something that is inherent and has a purpose. As much as some atheists may want to erase religion from the face of the earth, the need to have faith or to believe in something greater than oneself cannot be erased and will continue to manifest itself in one form or another.



I agree with the first part.  I would agree that the second part might be true of many or most as a result of socialization.  But I think there is another possibility.  It may hinge on what you regard as "religion".  If you use a functional definition ("religion" is what we create to deal with the problems of death, suffering, and injustice, for example) then, since these are universal problems everyone will encounter in life, some form of religion is probably universal.  But people usually mean more than this when they refer to "religion".  Usually they imply an additional set of beliefs based on what the socialization they have undergone holds true.  

For example, the Abrahamic religions posit a personified deity that is immortal, involved in human history, and accessible by individual human beings.  This being has the personality characteristics you mentioned earlier and exhibits behavior consistent with it.  The concept of a personified deity, however, is rejected by some other faith traditions (notably philosophical Taoism).  These individuals regard themselves as atheists with respect to all personified deities, and are generally regarded as atheists by adherents of personified deities.  So what, exactly, to they have in impulse to worship?  And do they worship?  

Peace all,  Jamie


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## Steven_R (Jul 17, 2013)

Surfer said:


> No delusions: just fact. Remember this as you fry in Hell for eternity screaming in agony with unquenchable thirst and scorching flesh. Too bad. So sad...



This is what I don't get about God. He loves us so much that he'll torture us for eternity if we don't love him back. He'll send us his son so we can atone for sins, sins that were made possible by giving humans free will (and that doesn't even take into account the whole I'm paying the price for Adam and Eve's poor decisions thing). He'll scatter humanity to the four corners of the Earth, but not give everyone the same religion to ensure we are all covered by the right one, meaning a whole lot of people will burn because God didn't tell them what to do in the first place. 

It's almost like an abusive husband. "Baby, I love you. Why do you make me hit you?"


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## dblack (Jul 17, 2013)

Steven_R said:


> Surfer said:
> 
> 
> > No delusions: just fact. Remember this as you fry in Hell for eternity screaming in agony with unquenchable thirst and scorching flesh. Too bad. So sad...
> ...



To be fair, that's one conception of one god. It doesn't really tell us much about the value of religion in general - though I suppose it can serve as evidence of potential problems with the institution.


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## Jimmy_Jam (Jul 17, 2013)

oldfart said:


> Jimmy_Jam said:
> 
> 
> > Re: the OP:
> ...



We disagree on Jung's premise. That's fair. 

Ultimately we cannot prove outright that the spiritual drive is an inherent part of the human condition or the result of socialization. Our best tool in this case is conjecture. But conjecture can be done well or bungled horribly. I don't think either of us are guilty of the latter.

Consider this. Belief in deities or higher powers predates recorded history. The discovery of Gobekli Tepe, the oldest archeological discovery yet made, demonstrates this very ancient tendency very well. While this still proves neither inherency nor socialization, it does establish that this tendency has been with us for a very, very long time. Gobekli Tepe does not establish religious tendency as primal, but to me it certainly suggests it.

Consider this as well. Perhaps religious belief is symptomatic of the inherent need to socialize. I am open to this idea. Be that as it may, whether the spiritual drive is as primal as fear or the result of socialization, it is very, very ancient, and I don't know that something has to be inherent or primal to necessarily be an integral part of the human condition. Simply having been a defining part of humanity since before antiquity might be enough.


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## GreatestIam (Jul 17, 2013)

Jimmy_Jam said:


> Re: the OP:
> 
> Defect or benefit, it is part of the human condition. Carl Jung held that to attempt to dislocate the spiritual drive means human beings must replace it with something else that is revered with similar adoration. For atheists, this usually (but not always) comes in the form of adoration for the state or for science. He lived in Europe during a time when adoration of the state was like an illness.
> 
> ...



Understood and well thought out and put.

I recognize that we all have a spiritual side. Here we agree.

The thing is, my spiritual side says that God want to be recognized, not adored. God has no need for it. He is what he is, so to speak, and does not crave something he did not earn by acts or deeds.

Jesus said that we would recognize his people by their deeds and he did recognizable deeds, at least in scriptures, I do not believe in miracles, but God, being our purported leader would also lead by example. He would not want us to desire adoration for our deeds so would also not want it for his.

If we adore him then, it is strictly a sel=serving adoration.

Regards
DL


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## daws101 (Jul 17, 2013)

hobelim said:


> daws101 said:
> 
> 
> > Surfer said:
> ...


 I get that alot ...mostly from people who have trouble with reality.


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## GreatestIam (Jul 17, 2013)

Jimmy_Jam said:


> oldfart said:
> 
> 
> > Jimmy_Jam said:
> ...



Not to interfere with your discussion, and I thank you both for doing what I create O Ps for,--- to see good minds debate and discuss, ---- but reverence and Goddess worship goes further back than Gobekli Tepe.

Mother goddess - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I do not know if we can say that they adored in the way we use it today but they certainly had reverence for life.

This is long and she is hard to listen to in one sitting but I found this scholar interesting.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yU1bEmq_pf0]The World of the Goddess - Marija Gimbutas - YouTube[/ame]

Regards
DL


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## Jimmy_Jam (Jul 17, 2013)

GreatestIam said:


> Jimmy_Jam said:
> 
> 
> > oldfart said:
> ...



How could you intrude when you started the thread? 

Anyway, I was simply using Gobekli Tepe as an illustrating example. I am always open to alternate or better examples. I just thought it was a good one.


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## GreatestIam (Jul 17, 2013)

J J

I have seen some information on Gobekli Tepe but have seen nothing about religious artifacts. 
Do you have a link for me?

Regards
DL


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## Jimmy_Jam (Jul 17, 2013)

GreatestIam said:


> J J
> 
> I have seen some information on Gobekli Tepe but have seen nothing about religious artifacts.
> Do you have a link for me?
> ...



The wikipedia article is sufficient to illustrate that the site is widely interpreted as being of religious meaning.

Göbekli Tepe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There is little or nothing to indicate that the site is anything but one of profound spiritual significance.


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## GreatestIam (Jul 17, 2013)

Jimmy_Jam said:


> GreatestIam said:
> 
> 
> > J J
> ...



Interpretations and assumptions are two word they are frequently using in that report.

I did not see any of the other iconic shapes that were used in religious settings before that time so I will reserve the notion that it was built for religious reasons until they qualify it more.

Thanks for the link.

Regards
DL


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## oldfart (Jul 17, 2013)

Jimmy_Jam said:


> We disagree on Jung's premise. That's fair.
> 
> Ultimately we cannot prove outright that the spiritual drive is an inherent part of the human condition or the result of socialization. Our best tool in this case is conjecture. But conjecture can be done well or bungled horribly. I don't think either of us are guilty of the latter.



Agreed that it is hard in our society to do an experiment which might shed more light on the inherent drive/socialization issue.  My position is really two points.  First, while a "spiritual drive" may be very common, I don't think it is as universal as, say, parent-infant bonding.  Infants don't die if they are not nurtured to satisfy the "spiritual drive".  Second, many of the people who make the argument for a biologically determined need for religion (and I exclude you from this group) make a great leap from a generalized religious instinct to a very specific theology.  In fact, medieval theologians made this one of the "Proofs of God"!



Jimmy_Jam said:


> Consider this as well. Perhaps religious belief is symptomatic of the inherent need to socialize. I am open to this idea. Be that as it may, whether the spiritual drive is as primal as fear or the result of socialization, it is very, very ancient, and I don't know that something has to be inherent or primal to necessarily be an integral part of the human condition. Simply having been a defining part of humanity since before antiquity might be enough.



Clearly humans are social animals and do not survive without effective socialization.  As this is biologically driven, religious belief could be considered one of the primary methods of achieving that socialization, which would make it a very common institutional adaptation.


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## Jimmy_Jam (Jul 17, 2013)

oldfart said:


> Jimmy_Jam said:
> 
> 
> > We disagree on Jung's premise. That's fair.
> ...



No problems for the most part with your observations. However, I am not making the argument that spiritual belief is biologically determined. It may be, but I am not making that case. I am simply saying that it is a defining part of the human condition. 

Another example of the human condition that is not necessarily biologically determined is the tendency to embellish. It is virtually universal. Even the most honest people in the world cannot resist the tendency to embellish, even if it is a tiny bit, a recollection of events. Even if a person tells a story as it happened, no person's recollection is 100% perfect, because we are fallible and we suffer memory loss to varying degrees and over time. The human tendency is to fill in the gaps to the best of their ability. Even the most honest person will fill in those gaps with information that is favorable to themselves or their position. This is because we all possess an ego. Some people may embellish more than others, and some may outright lie. This is why, in trials, there can be variations in what three different people testify to who saw the same thing. Each are applying their own biases and self-protection mechanisms to their recollection of events. Is that tendency biologically determined, or socially developed? It's all part of the nature/nurture argument and one that is extremely difficult to solve.

My position is that the spiritual drive is a part of the human condition in a similar way, whether socially or biologically determined, or a combination thereof.


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## daws101 (Jul 17, 2013)

Jimmy_Jam said:


> oldfart said:
> 
> 
> > Jimmy_Jam said:
> ...


stop embellishing!.... 
just couldn't resist ,,


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## Surfer (Jul 17, 2013)

GreatestIam said:


> Better to shovel coal in hell than to spend eternity in heaven watching friends, neighbors and our children in torture and flame forever.Only a sick mind like you have shown yours to be would conceive of such a situation or wish it upon anyone or gain pleasure from it. That is why God would not do such because then, heaven would be hell.If those in heaven did not go insane then they could not have once been human or good.You should think of hell just a bit and recognize that God would not create such an immoral construct...


There is no shoveling coal in Hell: there is only frying in the eternal lake of fire. You don't watch friends/neighbors/kids from Heaven. You worship God/Jesus. I didn't conceive of it; God did. Take it up with Him. 



Steven_R said:


> This is what I don't get about God. He loves us so much that he'll torture us for eternity if we don't love him back...



You have a choice.


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## daws101 (Jul 17, 2013)

Surfer said:


> GreatestIam said:
> 
> 
> > Better to shovel coal in hell than to spend eternity in heaven watching friends, neighbors and our children in torture and flame forever.Only a sick mind like you have shown yours to be would conceive of such a situation or wish it upon anyone or gain pleasure from it. That is why God would not do such because then, heaven would be hell.If those in heaven did not go insane then they could not have once been human or good.You should think of hell just a bit and recognize that God would not create such an immoral construct...
> ...


my way or the highway is no choice.


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## Steven_R (Jul 17, 2013)

Surfer said:


> GreatestIam said:
> 
> 
> > Better to shovel coal in hell than to spend eternity in heaven watching friends, neighbors and our children in torture and flame forever.Only a sick mind like you have shown yours to be would conceive of such a situation or wish it upon anyone or gain pleasure from it. That is why God would not do such because then, heaven would be hell.If those in heaven did not go insane then they could not have once been human or good.You should think of hell just a bit and recognize that God would not create such an immoral construct...
> ...



So it really is "baby, I love you. Why do you make me hit you?" 

I'll pass, thanks.


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## Surfer (Jul 18, 2013)

daws101 said:


> my way or the highway is no choice.



It is if you want Heaven. If you want to fry in the Lake of Fire for eternity it's your choice. Just remember you had the opportunity to spend eternity in Heaven with Jesus Christ/God but you spit in His face. Bad decision. Bad...


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