# THIS is the real gun violence problem in the US ( and it's the government's fault)



## Blues Man (Oct 4, 2022)

PolitiFact - Is most gun crime committed by those who illegally possess guns?
					

U.S. Rep. John Faso says he opposes some gun-control measures because they target the wrong people. Laws that limit the




					www.politifact.com
				




The real problem with guns and crime in this country is 100% the fault of our State and Federal government's abdication of their responsibilities to enforce the gun laws we have on the books.  State prosecutors regularly drop gun charges in pleas deals and even though every single instance of illegal possession of a firearm is a federal crime, these crimes are not tried by federal prosecutors in federal courts. 


Now the gun control freaks like to put the blame on all law abiding citizens who legally and responsibly own and use guns.  This is proven by the constant call for more and more and more gun laws that target law abiding citizens and not criminals.  These laws are not meant to be put on the books to be enforced but rather the strategy of gun control freaks is to falsely claim that even though we have literally thousands of gun laws on the books gun violence hasn't been brought under control.

No laws work if the powers that be refuse to take responsibility for enforcing those laws.  So it's time to hold the President, State governors and city mayors, the US attorney's office, State District Attorney's offices and every single politician at state and federal levels accountable for their dereliction of duty.


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## Canon Shooter (Oct 4, 2022)

Of course, you are exactly correct.

If we enforced the laws we have now, we wouldn't need additional laws which, ultimately, do nothing...


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## M14 Shooter (Oct 4, 2022)

No, no no.
Crime is as bad as it is because we do not have enough unnecessary and ineffective restrictions on the exercise of the right to keep and bear arms by the law abiding.


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## DudleySmith (Oct 4, 2022)

America has always worshipped money, corruption, conspicuous consumption, and mindless hedonism. Why is anybody surprised the weak minded and stupid are the primary suckers and most heavily influenced by 'libertoonism'?


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## Mikeoxenormous (Oct 4, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> PolitiFact - Is most gun crime committed by those who illegally possess guns?
> 
> 
> U.S. Rep. John Faso says he opposes some gun-control measures because they target the wrong people. Laws that limit the
> ...


Of course if we just put a bullet in the brain of all criminals who use a gun for a crime, soon there arent gun crimes anymore....At least no repeat offenders....


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## Canon Shooter (Oct 4, 2022)

Mikeoxenormous said:


> Of course if we just put a bullet in the brain of all criminals who use a gun for a crime, soon there arent gun crimes anymore....At least no repeat offenders....



The penalties for using a gun in the commission of a crime need to be so draconian and so inhuman that no one, even the most seasoned criminal, would want to chance it...


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## Donald H (Oct 4, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> PolitiFact - Is most gun crime committed by those who illegally possess guns?
> 
> 
> U.S. Rep. John Faso says he opposes some gun-control measures because they target the wrong people. Laws that limit the
> ...


Stop right there my friend, there's a reason why crime is not prosecuted in America. You should make yourself aware of that reason and then lead the discussion toward facing the problem and then maybe starting to deal with it.

a hint: America's courts can't even handle the volume that it doesn't bargain away! Why is that?


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## M14 Shooter (Oct 4, 2022)

Donald H said:


> Stop right there my friend, there's a reason why crime is not prosecuted in America. You should make yourself aware of that reason and then lead the discussion toward facing the problem and then maybe starting to deal with it.
> a hint: America's courts can't even handle the volume that it doesn't bargain away! Why is that?


More mindless nonsense.


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## RetiredGySgt (Oct 4, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> More mindless nonsense.


He should be worried about all the loss of rights and cop problems Canada has rather than sticking his nose in our business.


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## M14 Shooter (Oct 4, 2022)

RetiredGySgt said:


> He should be worried about all the loss of rights and cop problems Canada has rather than sticking his nose in our business.


He doesn't get enough attention, so he comes here to troll.


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## Donald H (Oct 4, 2022)

RetiredGySgt said:


> He should be worried about all the loss of rights and cop problems Canada has rather than sticking his nose in our business.


You could address the problem I've hinted at for Canada too. We're not completely free of the problem but it's of a much lesser concern.

Concentrating on gun violence alone could be a a logical approach as a comparison.

Are America's courts now needing to plea bargain away murder with guns?


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## 2aguy (Oct 4, 2022)

RetiredGySgt said:


> He should be worried about all the loss of rights and cop problems Canada has rather than sticking his nose in our business.




And rising gun crime in Canada.....don't forget that....


*The rate of gun-related crime in Canada has increased by 42 per cent since 2013, due in large part to the increasing number of victims in Toronto.*



			https://www.cbc.ca/cbcdocspov/features/gun-violence-by-the-numbers


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## Blues Man (Oct 4, 2022)

Donald H said:


> Stop right there my friend, there's a reason why crime is not prosecuted in America. You should make yourself aware of that reason and then lead the discussion toward facing the problem and then maybe starting to deal with it.
> 
> a hint: America's courts can't even handle the volume that it doesn't bargain away! Why is that?


We do not have the will to enforce our laws.

The fact of the matter is that more people are in prison for nonviolent crimes than anything else while we let violent criminals back on the streets.


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## Mikeoxenormous (Oct 4, 2022)

Canon Shooter said:


> The penalties for using a gun in the commission of a crime need to be so draconian and so inhuman that no one, even the most seasoned criminal, would want to chance it...


To kill someone in Saudi Arabia is to lose your head.  Makes people think twice before they go and murder someone.


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## Canon Shooter (Oct 4, 2022)

Mikeoxenormous said:


> To kill someone in Saudi Arabia is to lose your head.  Makes people think twice before they go and murder someone.



Exactly...


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## Blues Man (Oct 4, 2022)

Mikeoxenormous said:


> To kill someone in Saudi Arabia is to lose your head.  Makes people think twice before they go and murder someone.


So you want to live in a country like Saudi Arabia?


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## Donald H (Oct 4, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> We do not have the will to enforce our laws.


Your country doesn't have the resources to enforce the laws. That's not a secret. Bargaining has become a necessity!


Blues Man said:


> The fact of the matter is that more people are in prison for nonviolent crimes than anything else while we let violent criminals back on the streets.


I think there's some truth in that.

If true, then it indicates the greatest priorities of the American people. It's evolved into that over a long period of time under both D and R regimes.

Let's think of petty crimes of drug use/possession being a priority. Is that due to too great an influence by some segment of the population?


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## Mikeoxenormous (Oct 4, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> So you want to live in a country like Saudi Arabia?


I lived in Saudi Arabia for 5 1/2 years.  During that time, i could leave my doors unlocked and didnt have to look over my shoulder to see if someone was going to sucker punch me.  Yeah, once a year a 3rd world idiot would be caught stealing and lose his hand, or he did drugs and was then beheaded.  Instead of coddling our criminals, we need to punish them so much, that they wont do any crime again.  



We used to have chain gangs, and those criminals would do their time, then never do a crime again, because how brutal it was to be on the chain.  Now we treat criminals better than we treat our military..


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## 2aguy (Oct 5, 2022)

Mikeoxenormous said:


> I lived in Saudi Arabia for 5 1/2 years.  During that time, i could leave my doors unlocked and didnt have to look over my shoulder to see if someone was going to sucker punch me.  Yeah, once a year a 3rd world idiot would be caught stealing and lose his hand, or he did drugs and was then beheaded.  Instead of coddling our criminals, we need to punish them so much, that they wont do any crime again.
> 
> 
> 
> We used to have chain gangs, and those criminals would do their time, then never do a crime again, because how brutal it was to be on the chain.  Now we treat criminals better than we treat our military..



Sweden is experiencing a rise in gang shootings and bombings and some law enforcement there say it is due to the immigrant gangs using teenage shooters…….shooters under the age of 18 only serve 4 years in prison in Sweden…..l

In the U.S, the democrat policies of attacking the police and releasing violent criminals is the reason for the massive spike in all crimes in democrat party controlled cities…


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## Blues Man (Oct 5, 2022)

Donald H said:


> Your country doesn't have the resources to enforce the laws. That's not a secret. Bargaining has become a necessity!
> 
> I think there's some truth in that.
> 
> ...


We have the resources we just won't commit them


Mikeoxenormous said:


> I lived in Saudi Arabia for 5 1/2 years.  During that time, i could leave my doors unlocked and didnt have to look over my shoulder to see if someone was going to sucker punch me.  Yeah, once a year a 3rd world idiot would be caught stealing and lose his hand, or he did drugs and was then beheaded.  Instead of coddling our criminals, we need to punish them so much, that they wont do any crime again.
> 
> 
> 
> We used to have chain gangs, and those criminals would do their time, then never do a crime again, because how brutal it was to be on the chain.  Now we treat criminals better than we treat our military..


Feel free to move back


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## Mikeoxenormous (Oct 6, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> We have the resources we just won't commit them
> 
> Feel free to move back


Until we adopt the justice system of Saudi Arabia, crime will continue to grow across the US, because criminals FEEL that they can get away with murder.


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## Blues Man (Oct 6, 2022)

Mikeoxenormous said:


> Until we adopt the justice system of Saudi Arabia, crime will continue to grow across the US, because criminals FEEL that they can get away with murder.


No thanks.

But please feel free to move to Saudi Arabia


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## Mikeoxenormous (Oct 6, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> No thanks.
> 
> But please feel free to move to Saudi Arabia


Then dont fucking complain about the justice system of the US, because it coddles the criminals, and be damned to the victim....


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## Blues Man (Oct 7, 2022)

Mikeoxenormous said:


> Then dont fucking complain about the justice system of the US, because it coddles the criminals, and be damned to the victim....


I am not complaining I am stating a fact.

But like I said if you want to live in a dictatorship where human rights don't matter then please feel free to move to one.


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## Mikeoxenormous (Oct 7, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> I am not complaining I am stating a fact.
> 
> But like I said if you want to live in a dictatorship where human rights don't matter then please feel free to move to one.


I guess you havent been watching what has been happening in the US of late, have you?


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## Blues Man (Oct 7, 2022)

Mikeoxenormous said:


> I guess you havent been watching what has been happening in the US of late, have you?


I still would not trade the US for Saudi Arabia


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## M14 Shooter (Oct 7, 2022)

Mikeoxenormous said:


> I guess you havent been watching what has been happening in the US of late, have you?


No.  Do tell.


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## Mikeoxenormous (Oct 8, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> I still would not trade the US for Saudi Arabia


Only the punishments for criminals that cannot be fixed..


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## Blues Man (Oct 8, 2022)

Mikeoxenormous said:


> Only the punishments for criminals that cannot be fixed..


Too bad we have that damned 8th Amendment huh?


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## Mikeoxenormous (Oct 8, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Too bad we have that damned 8th Amendment huh?


Nothing cruel or unusual with a beheading.  Quick and easy, much so than a slow death by injection....


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## Blues Man (Oct 9, 2022)

Mikeoxenormous said:


> Nothing cruel or unusual with a beheading.  Quick and easy, much so than a slow death by injection....


Read the definition issued by SCOTUS


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## Care4all (Oct 9, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> PolitiFact - Is most gun crime committed by those who illegally possess guns?
> 
> 
> U.S. Rep. John Faso says he opposes some gun-control measures because they target the wrong people. Laws that limit the
> ...


Weren't all of the *illegal* guns, *LEGAL* guns when the manufacturer produced and sold them?  How are these LEGAL guns, getting in to the hands of criminals making them illegal guns? 

That's where the root of the problem is....not AFTER they have committed a crime with the illegal gun.


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## Blues Man (Oct 9, 2022)

Care4all said:


> Weren't all of the *illegal* guns, *LEGAL* guns when the manufacturer sold them?  How are these LEGAL guns, getting in to the hands of criminals making them illegal guns?
> 
> That's where the root of the problem is....not AFTER they have committed a crime with the illegal gun.


Any gun that can be purchased by civilians is not an "Illegal" gun

The possession of a gun by a prohibited person as defined in our federal gun laws is illegal.

So now that that point of definition is clarified, there is no real way to completely stop the sale of guns on the black market.

Despite the heavily enforced drug laws in this country law enforcement cannot keep illegal drugs out of society.
But that's where the analogy ends.  Drug addiction should be treated as a health issue not so much a crime.  Now part of the problem is that drug users and addicts who get arrested are usually back out on the streets pretty quickly so they just score and use again.

The fact is no one on the federal or state level is enforcing gun laws.  But the difference here is that violent criminals with a willingness to use guns who get put back on the streets will just commit another violent crime.  

We know what happens when gun laws are enforced.

The city if Richmond VA initiated operation exile in 1998.  The state AG office in cooperation with the US Attorney's Office prosecuted instances of illegal possession of firearms as federal crimes in federal court with a minimum sentence of 5 years in federal prison and to no one's surprise there was a statisically significant drop in crime across the board.


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## Care4all (Oct 9, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> So now that that point of definition is clarified, there is no real way to completely stop the sale of guns on the black market


But that is where the illegal possession of the gun, starts.  And it is a black market that needs crushing from every angle!  Those who supply the guns to those who peddle the guns to criminals.

Sure, if there is space in our prisons, go after those caught later too.....


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## Blues Man (Oct 9, 2022)

Care4all said:


> But that is where the illegal possession of the gun, starts.  And it is a black market that needs crushing from every angle!  Those who supply the guns to those who peddle the guns to criminals.
> 
> Sure, if there is space in our prisons, go after those caught later too.....


We have more than enough prison space considering that there are far more arrests for simple marijuana possession than there are for violent crimes 

But tell me if we can't keep a drug as benign as pot off the streets how do you propose eliminating the black market for guns?  Hell there is still a thriving black market for cigarettes.

The only way to do that is to actually enforce gun laws and make it extremely unpleasant on criminals who possess guns illegally instead of dropping gun charges in plea deals.


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## 2aguy (Oct 9, 2022)

Care4all said:


> Weren't all of the *illegal* guns, *LEGAL* guns when the manufacturer produced and sold them?  How are these LEGAL guns, getting in to the hands of criminals making them illegal guns?
> 
> That's where the root of the problem is....not AFTER they have committed a crime with the illegal gun.




They steal them...or other criminals with clean records buy them, then sell them illegally to other criminals.

Are you this dumb in real life, or when just when you post?

No...most of the problem isn't that guns exist and that criminals then get their hands on them.  The actual problem is that we have a political party that has decided to attack local police in order to undermine their ability to stop violent criminals, and then, the democrats decided that releasing the most violent, repeat gun offenders was a viable strategy for gun control pushing.....

We can catch the actual criminals fairly easily.....the problem, the actual problem, then becomes the democrat party prosecutors, judges and politicians who work over time to then free those criminals over and over again...


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## 2aguy (Oct 9, 2022)

Care4all said:


> But that is where the illegal possession of the gun, starts.  And it is a black market that needs crushing from every angle!  Those who supply the guns to those who peddle the guns to criminals.
> 
> Sure, if there is space in our prisons, go after those caught later too.....



*And it is a black market that needs crushing from every angle!  Those who supply the guns to those who peddle the guns to criminals.*

Yes.....and yet the democrat party, the party you support, refuses to do this every time they release a known, violent, repeat gun offender in possession of an illegal gun.......

Increase the sentence for felons caught in possession of an illegal gun to 15-30 years....if they use that gun in the actual commission of a crime, life in prison.

That is how you stop criminals from getting illegal guns......that is how Japan did it.

This actual solution also has the magical aspect in that it does not impact normal Americans who own guns.....at all.   And that is why the democrat party and you hate this solution...you want to ban and confiscate all guns, not just the ones used by criminals.

In fact, by releasing the most dangerous, violent criminals, you are ensuring that guns are used to commit crime and murder, and that actually gives you more power.....for your political agenda, and your gun ban agenda.....


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## Care4all (Oct 10, 2022)

2aguy said:


> *And it is a black market that needs crushing from every angle!  Those who supply the guns to those who peddle the guns to criminals.*
> 
> Yes.....and yet the democrat party, the party you support, refuses to do this every time they release a known, violent, repeat gun offender in possession of an illegal gun.......
> 
> ...


See, you give a handful of examples, but its no where even close to all of them.

And you are talking about in a convoluted way, the drug dealer, vs. the drug user....aren't you?

If you cut off all supply, then you cut out the users....and new users....at least, reduce them.

How does the black market get the guns to sell illegally???

I saw a bust once that showed a guy that had 1500 guns in his garage and home that he was selling on the black market.....this was a while back, don't remember the state?


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## RetiredGySgt (Oct 10, 2022)

Care4all said:


> See, you give a handful of examples, but its no where even close to all of them.
> 
> And you are talking about in a convoluted way, the drug dealer, vs. the drug user....aren't you?
> 
> ...


Already answered that dumb ass. either stolen or straw buyer.


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## Care4all (Oct 10, 2022)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Already answered that dumb ass. either stolen or straw buyer.


So how do you stop the theft and straw buyers?


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## RetiredGySgt (Oct 10, 2022)

Care4all said:


> So how do you stop the theft and straw buyers?


you prosecute straw buyers if you catch them, and don't plea bargain it down and you prosecute those that use firearms illegally and DON'T plea bargain it down.


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## Blues Man (Oct 10, 2022)

Care4all said:


> See, you give a handful of examples, but its no where even close to all of them.
> 
> And you are talking about in a convoluted way, the drug dealer, vs. the drug user....aren't you?
> 
> ...


Here we go with a version of the everyone is a criminal in waiting argument.

If we take guns and rights away from everyone then there will be no more gun crimes.  The hell with the innocent until proven guilty bullshit right?

That is naïve to the point of mental retardation.


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## Care4all (Oct 10, 2022)

RetiredGySgt said:


> you prosecute straw buyers if you catch them, and don't plea bargain it down and you prosecute those that use firearms illegally and DON'T plea bargain it down.


How can we catch MORE straw buyers?  Why is it so easy?  Aren't there millions of illegal guns out there in the wrong hands?


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## Blues Man (Oct 10, 2022)

RetiredGySgt said:


> you prosecute straw buyers if you catch them, and don't plea bargain it down and you prosecute those that use firearms illegally and DON'T plea bargain it down.


The thing is a person illegally possessing firearms can be tried in both state and federal courts and serve time for both offenses without violating double jeopardy laws.

So a piece of shit gets caught illegally possessing a firearm should be tried in state court and federal court and when he finishes his stint in the county jail he can get shipped to a federal prison to serve that time.


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## RetiredGySgt (Oct 10, 2022)

Care4all said:


> How can we catch MORE straw buyers?  Why is it so easy?  Aren't there millions of illegal guns out there in the wrong hands?


The Fed doesn't try to catch straw buyers at all. And theft will happen no matter what. Prosecute those that use illegal firearms.


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## Blues Man (Oct 10, 2022)

RetiredGySgt said:


> The Fed doesn't try to catch straw buyers at all. And theft will happen no matter what. Prosecute those that use illegal firearms.


The federal government doesn't enforce gun laws at all


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## Care4all (Oct 10, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Here we go with a version of the everyone is a criminal in waiting argument.
> 
> If we take guns and rights away from everyone then there will be no more gun crimes.  The hell with the innocent until proven guilty bullshit right?
> 
> That is naïve to the point of mental retardation.


I don't want to take guns and rights away from everyone, that would include my husband.

I just want to take the easy peasy access to any illegal gun of the criminal's choice, away.


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## Blues Man (Oct 10, 2022)

Care4all said:


> I don't want to take guns and rights away from everyone, that would include my husband.
> 
> I just want to take the easy peasy access to any illegal gun of the criminals choice, away.


How?

We can't keep illegal drugs off the streets so how do you propose to keep black market guns off the streets?


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## Care4all (Oct 10, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> How?
> 
> We can't keep illegal drugs off the streets so how do you propose to keep black market guns off the streets?


That was my question in my first or second post!  I don't know, that's why I am asking you guys!


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## Blues Man (Oct 10, 2022)

Care4all said:


> That was my question in my first or second post!  I don't know, that's why I am asking you guys!


It can't be done in the real world.  Like i said we can't keep illegal drugs off the streets, there are thriving black markets for cigarettes and fake name brand clothing, so why do you think we can do for guns what cant be done for every other illicit product ?

The best we can do is actually enforce gun laws on both the state and federal levels.


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## M14 Shooter (Oct 10, 2022)

Care4all said:


> If you cut off all supply, then you cut out the users....and new users....at least, reduce them.


How do you cut off the supply of "illegal"guns when they are legal until someone acquires one illegally?


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## RetiredGySgt (Oct 10, 2022)

Again, make the crime cost a lot of years. and enforce the law.


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Oct 10, 2022)

Care4all said:


> Weren't all of the *illegal* guns, *LEGAL* guns when the manufacturer produced and sold them?  How are these LEGAL guns, getting in to the hands of criminals making them illegal guns?
> 
> That's where the root of the problem is....not AFTER they have committed a crime with the illegal gun.


Correct – all guns start out as legal guns when sold new by a Federally licensed dealer (FFL).

The thread premise is attempting to promote the lie that because most crimes are committed by prohibited persons who acquired firearms illegally, firearm regulatory measures ‘don’t work’ and that additional measures ‘aren’t warranted.’

Why this is a lie is noted in the OP link:

“About 48 percent of state prison inmates surveyed said they got the gun they used from a family member, friend, gun store, pawn shop, flea market, or gun show. Most states only require a background check if the purchase happens at a gun store, according to the Giffords Center to Prevent Gun Violence.”

In fact, only nine states have background check requirements.

Consequently, it’s a lie to claim that firearm regulatory measures ‘don’t work’; rather, the issue is that regulatory measures are inconsistent, varying from state to state.

From the OP link:

“The data is hard to track because gun ownership laws vary from state to state. New York state has universal background checks, for example. All gun sales have to go through a federally licensed dealer. A state like Mississippi, meanwhile, does not require background checks outside of gun shops.”


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## Blues Man (Oct 10, 2022)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Correct – all guns start out as legal guns when sold new by a Federally licensed dealer (FFL).
> 
> The thread premise is attempting to promote the lie that because most crimes are committed by prohibited persons who acquired firearms illegally, firearm regulatory measures ‘don’t work’ and that additional measures ‘aren’t warranted.’
> 
> ...


Most crimes involving guns ARE committed by people who illegally possess guns.









						PolitiFact - Is most gun crime committed by those who illegally possess guns?
					

U.S. Rep. John Faso says he opposes some gun-control measures because they target the wrong people. Laws that limit the




					www.politifact.com


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## RetiredGySgt (Oct 10, 2022)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Correct – all guns start out as legal guns when sold new by a Federally licensed dealer (FFL).
> 
> The thread premise is attempting to promote the lie that because most crimes are committed by prohibited persons who acquired firearms illegally, firearm regulatory measures ‘don’t work’ and that additional measures ‘aren’t warranted.’
> 
> ...


You are a liar most crime with firearms is by criminals and it has been linked several times in this thread alone.


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## 2aguy (Oct 10, 2022)

Care4all said:


> So how do you stop the theft and straw buyers?




When you catch the actual criminal with the illegal gun in their possession, you lock them up for 30 years........and when he tells you who the straw buyer was, you lock them up for 30 years too.......you idiot.


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## 2aguy (Oct 10, 2022)

Care4all said:


> How can we catch MORE straw buyers?  Why is it so easy?  Aren't there millions of illegal guns out there in the wrong hands?




Millions, no.   The problem, again, since you are very dumb....is the democrat party prosecutors, judges and politicians are refusing to keep violent gun offenders in jail and prison.  If there is no penalty for breaking gun laws, the criminals have no reason to stop.


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## 2aguy (Oct 10, 2022)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Correct – all guns start out as legal guns when sold new by a Federally licensed dealer (FFL).
> 
> The thread premise is attempting to promote the lie that because most crimes are committed by prohibited persons who acquired firearms illegally, firearm regulatory measures ‘don’t work’ and that additional measures ‘aren’t warranted.’
> 
> ...




Shit head....all states have federal background check requirements...you lying doofus.

And private sales of guns don't require background checks because you are selling a legal item from your own personal collection.   The only reason you and the other anti-gun fascists want universal background checks is to then demand universal gun registration....which is what you want and need before you ban and confiscate guns.


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