# Can someone explain a legitimate argument for protecting illegal immigrants in the US?



## Donald Polish (Feb 28, 2015)

I know it is a big deal for many of us...
I've always been "against" illegal immigration and do not find anything morally wrong with deporting people who come into the United States illegally. Moreover I support this policy. 
Do you have people who come to the country illegally, who US citizens are now defending. Why? Why do they have any claims to the rights that legal citizens/workers in the US enjoy? They cheated the system, and people don't think they should be punished or deported. How is it fair that thousands of people work their asses off just for a chance to stay in the US while others come in illegally and then are defended against deportation? How can you discourage people from cheating the system if you just reward them if they manage to cross the border illegally?
When it comes to the children of illegal immigrants, I'm really unsure of what's the best course of action is, so I'd prefer to stick to discussing illegal immigrants who don't have children born in the US.


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Feb 28, 2015)

All persons in the United States are entitled to due process of the law, including those undocumented (_Plyler v. Doe_ (1982)). That one is in the country absent documentation doesn't necessarily mean he is 'illegal,' where one is not 'illegal' until determined as such in a court of law.

This issue therefore is not one of undocumented immigrants entering the country, but the unwarranted fear and hate of those hostile to immigrants, and their refusal to allow immigration reform that will address the issue in compliance with the Constitution's requirement that all persons in fact be afforded due process of the law.


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## USNavyVet (Feb 28, 2015)

They vote Democrat because the Democrats give them money, drivers licenses, and welfare benefits and that is why some protect illegal immigrants.


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## rdean (Feb 28, 2015)

It's really quite simple.  I'm embarrassed to have to explain it.

Survey GOP executives want immigrant labor not voters The Daily Caller

Most GOP-leaning business leaders want to hire more cheap foreign workers, but many are reluctant to see those workers get the right to vote, according to a new survey by the Chicago Council on Global Affairs.

Seventy-five percent of the surveyed GOP executives in the Midwest back the Senate’s June 2013 immigration rewrite,

U.S. Farmers Urge Changes to Immigration Law Amid Labor Shortage TIME.com

“The enforcement of immigration policy has devastated the skilled-labor source that we’ve depended on for 20 or 30 years,” said Ralph Broetje during a recent teleconference organized by the National Immigration Forum, adding that last year Washington farmers — part of an $8 billion agriculture industry — were forced to leave 10% of their crops rotting on vines and trees. “It’s getting worse each year,” says Broetje, “and it’s going to end up putting some growers out of business if Congress doesn’t step up and do immigration reform.”

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See?  This is where greedy big business and their minions part ways.  Business knows it has the ignorant right wing vote sewn up so they don't want immigrants to vote.  They just want to use them to do the jobs ignorant right wingers aren't qualified or capable of doing.  Whether it's hard labor or skilled labor.  Doesn't matter.  Republicans are simply to lazy and too dumb.  

georgia wants migrant workers - Google Search

business wants immigrants - Google Search

pick your source.  it's easy to find.  The knowledge isn't "secret".

Consider this a "teaching moment".


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## rdean (Feb 28, 2015)

USNavyVet said:


> They vote Democrat because the Democrats give them money, drivers licenses, and welfare benefits and that is why some protect illegal immigrants.


See?  I posted links.  You just made up bullshit.  Republicans ridiculous right winger talking points.  Do you understand how dumb that makes you look?


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## Menerva Lindsen (Feb 28, 2015)

First you just make illegals uncomfortable and many will self deport. When you cant rent a house, open a bank account, get a job you quickly realize this is not the place for you.
Second, using this argument we shouldn't prosecute hardly any crimes as that costs money


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## Greeneyedlady (Feb 28, 2015)

That was working up until Obama....Now states like CA are telling those who self deported they can come back.


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## rdean (Mar 1, 2015)

No right winger even wants to admit that business wants immigrants here.  They feel it just can't be.  They LOVE business.  Why would business turn on them?  Must be some mistake.


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## percysunshine (Mar 1, 2015)

Donald Polish said:


> I know it is a big deal for many of us...
> I've always been "against" illegal immigration and do not find anything morally wrong with deporting people who come into the United States illegally. Moreover I support this policy.
> Do you have people who come to the country illegally, who US citizens are now defending. Why? Why do they have any claims to the rights that legal citizens/workers in the US enjoy? They cheated the system, and people don't think they should be punished or deported. How is it fair that thousands of people work their asses off just for a chance to stay in the US while others come in illegally and then are defended against deportation? How can you discourage people from cheating the system if you just reward them if they manage to cross the border illegally?
> When it comes to the children of illegal immigrants, I'm really unsure of what's the best course of action is, so I'd prefer to stick to discussing illegal immigrants who don't have children born in the US.



'Can someone explain a legitimate argument for protecting illegal immigrants in the US?'

Define the term 'legitimate argument'.

Does it have to make any sense?


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## Bfgrn (Mar 1, 2015)

We sure as hell don't want these people paying taxes and contributing their fair share.


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## percysunshine (Mar 1, 2015)

.
I guess not.

.


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## Greeneyedlady (Mar 1, 2015)

sure they can pay their back taxes, pay back for the food stamps, medical, education etc. that they have used for years, then they can go back to their own country and wait at the end of the line behind everyone else, and go through the process.


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## Bfgrn (Mar 1, 2015)

Greeneyedlady said:


> sure they can pay their back taxes, pay back for the food stamps, medical, education etc. that they have used for years, then they can go back to their own country and wait at the end of the line behind everyone else, and go through the process.



They come here to work. They work hard and put our citizens to shame.


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## Greeneyedlady (Mar 1, 2015)

Sure work, then they send the money out of the US. They break our laws. They scam our social systems. They want to live and work here, then pay up everything that they have already taken from us, go back home and get in line.


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## Yarddog (Mar 1, 2015)

Donald Polish said:


> I know it is a big deal for many of us...
> I've always been "against" illegal immigration and do not find anything morally wrong with deporting people who come into the United States illegally. Moreover I support this policy.
> Do you have people who come to the country illegally, who US citizens are now defending. Why? Why do they have any claims to the rights that legal citizens/workers in the US enjoy? They cheated the system, and people don't think they should be punished or deported. How is it fair that thousands of people work their asses off just for a chance to stay in the US while others come in illegally and then are defended against deportation? How can you discourage people from cheating the system if you just reward them if they manage to cross the border illegally?
> When it comes to the children of illegal immigrants, I'm really unsure of what's the best course of action is, so I'd prefer to stick to discussing illegal immigrants who don't have children born in the US.




Im against Illegal immigration as well,  I think sometimes there are humanitarian cases where it IS ok.  After all we all have a heart.  But not to the scale it has been allowed. Even Ceasar Chavez was strongly against Illegal migrants,  and he definately was not a racist being mexican himself.  
I think the argument really needs to be thrown back at the Mexican Government.  All eyes are alway on the US , as to what we should owe the Mexican people. But the real questiion is why does every administration shelter the Mexican government from their responsibility.  It might be cheaper for us to help them develop their own natural resources then for us to absorb another underclass and deprive our existing poor who need help


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## Yarddog (Mar 1, 2015)

Bfgrn said:


> Greeneyedlady said:
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> > sure they can pay their back taxes, pay back for the food stamps, medical, education etc. that they have used for years, then they can go back to their own country and wait at the end of the line behind everyone else, and go through the process.
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There are examples of that,  but i believe its a distorted truth.  There are millions of hardworking americans,  maybe just not in Marin County. Ive known illegal immigrants in my own life.  One is a friend.  Ive worked with some who were hard workers like you say. Ive known others who where complete pieces of shit and sold Tar heroine, I knew one who stole my car and I had to get it back at my own risk, some come here who have absolutely no respect for us and others are the sweetest people on earth.   But the problem is , were not checking out who is comming across the border. theres no excuse for it. My great Grandparents had to go through the process, same as others


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## Bfgrn (Mar 1, 2015)

Yarddog said:


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Do you know any Americans who are complete pieces of shit, sell heroine or steal cars? When you start 'profiling' you will be rightly chastised and abdicate the argument. 

America is no haven of social safety nets. Wake up.


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## Yarddog (Mar 1, 2015)

Bfgrn said:


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Your profiling by saying they all work hard and put americans to shame.  what the fuck do you think that is


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## Yarddog (Mar 1, 2015)

Its fucking profiling


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## Bfgrn (Mar 1, 2015)

Greeneyedlady said:


> Sure work, then they send the money out of the US. They break our laws. They scam our social systems. They want to live and work here, then pay up everything that they have already taken from us, go back home and get in line.


 
Sounds great as long as it isn't YOUR life, your existence or your family in the balance.

They come here for work, and they don't 'scam' our system. Turn off Faux news and stop being a parrot. There are many Americans who need help and can't get government assistance. What makes you think anyone can just get food stamps etc?


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## Yarddog (Mar 1, 2015)

You cherry pick through my post and pick out the negatrive things  but what I posted was from my own personal experience


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## Yarddog (Mar 1, 2015)

Bfgrn said:


> Greeneyedlady said:
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> > Sure work, then they send the money out of the US. They break our laws. They scam our social systems. They want to live and work here, then pay up everything that they have already taken from us, go back home and get in line.
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I dont have TV


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## Yarddog (Mar 1, 2015)

Bfgrn said:


> Greeneyedlady said:
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> > Sure work, then they send the money out of the US. They break our laws. They scam our social systems. They want to live and work here, then pay up everything that they have already taken from us, go back home and get in line.
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Yes some of them do    LIKE I SAID


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## Bfgrn (Mar 1, 2015)

Yarddog said:


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It is the truth. Most illegal immigrants take jobs Americans turn their nose up on and they participate in the workforce at higher rates than native-born Americans


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## Bfgrn (Mar 1, 2015)

Yarddog said:


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Are you sure? You don't even know who you are. Are you Greeneyedlady?


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## Yarddog (Mar 1, 2015)

Bfgrn said:


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Sorry,  made a mistake theere


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## Greeneyedlady (Mar 1, 2015)

Bfgrn said:


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They work illegally, breaking the law.


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## Yarddog (Mar 1, 2015)

Bfgrn said:


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Why is it ok for Latin americans to come here illegaly and then not everyone else from all over the world. ?  Why bother having an immigration law att all ? whats the point,  you come here you stay.  Why should anyone else wait in line?  theres no reason to wait in line.  I tried to help a friend bring here niece here as a student from Kenya,  We had a foster family set up,  The Ach Diocese in SF had given her the OK and she was accepted on a scholarship by a Highschool in Marin County who wanted her,  and she was still denied.  Why is that fair, when other people can just walk accross th eborder?   granted, there is a lot of corruption in our US embassy in Kenya, but its actually something my kenyan friend pointed out to me as well. 

I dont believe American people wont work hard, it may depend on where you are looking, theres a lot of Americans who are not working, yes.  But importing other foreign workers is not going to solve that problem,   just perpetuate it more. Im not against Immigration, but you need to know who is coming over the border,  There were a lot of white europeans who wer not accepted and sent back from Ellis Island, every country has a right to control its immigration.  and every other country does except for the US


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## Oldglory1 (Mar 1, 2015)

Bfgrn said:


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What utter BS!   There are no jobs that Americans won't do for a fair wage.   Who the hell do you think did them before the arrival of millions of illegal aliens willing to work for less?   WTH are you talking about?   We have only 12-20- million illegal aliens in this country with a population of 320 million.   How the hell can you make the stupid claim that they participate in our workforce at higher rates than natives?   Illegal immigration is against the law.   What part of that aren't you getting?


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## Oldglory1 (Mar 1, 2015)

rdean said:


> No right winger even wants to admit that business wants immigrants here.  They feel it just can't be.  They LOVE business.  Why would business turn on them?  Must be some mistake.



I am a conservative and I know both Republicans and Democrats hire illegal aliens  to increase their profits while denying Americans a job at a fair wage and passing the social costs of their illegal workforce on to the taxpayer.  No law abiding American loves these greedy employers and wants them held accountable.  So WTH are you talking about?   By the way, illegal aliens aren't "immigrants".


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## Roadrunner (Mar 1, 2015)

Donald Polish said:


> I know it is a big deal for many of us...
> I've always been "against" illegal immigration and do not find anything morally wrong with deporting people who come into the United States illegally. Moreover I support this policy.
> Do you have people who come to the country illegally, who US citizens are now defending. Why? Why do they have any claims to the rights that legal citizens/workers in the US enjoy? They cheated the system, and people don't think they should be punished or deported. How is it fair that thousands of people work their asses off just for a chance to stay in the US while others come in illegally and then are defended against deportation? How can you discourage people from cheating the system if you just reward them if they manage to cross the border illegally?
> When it comes to the children of illegal immigrants, I'm really unsure of what's the best course of action is, so I'd prefer to stick to discussing illegal immigrants who don't have children born in the US.


It is all about the "D"!


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## Roadrunner (Mar 1, 2015)

Bfgrn said:


> Greeneyedlady said:
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> > sure they can pay their back taxes, pay back for the food stamps, medical, education etc. that they have used for years, then they can go back to their own country and wait at the end of the line behind everyone else, and go through the process.
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I admire their desire to work and better themselves.

I wish that every time we caught a working illegal, we could ship a welfare bum to the illegal's country of origin.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 1, 2015)

Oldglory1 said:


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What is a fair wage for a semi-literate self-consumed average American 18 year old that has to be trained to know you show up at work on time?


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## HereWeGoAgain (Mar 1, 2015)

Bfgrn said:


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 But they aren't here illegally.
Mexicans commit crimes and go back to mexico to avoid prosecution.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Mar 1, 2015)

Bfgrn said:


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  Thats bullshit. As I've said here at least a dozen times........
I watched machine shops go from maybe 3% hispanic to over 80% hispanic in the course of twenty years. And guess what..wages went stagnant because of it.
   You need to get out of your moms basement and see the real world.


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## Bfgrn (Mar 1, 2015)

Yarddog said:


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The issue of immigration as most other issues this country faces need to be LIBERALIZED, not become more conservative which is a synonym for punitive.

The restrictions on "legal" immigration are so punitive that there is no line to get into, unless you live to be 100 years old.

An immigration black market only exists because the government has made the legal market so small and restricted. For example, if an Indian waiting for an employment-based green card (EB-3) applied in 2002, he would advance to the next stage sometime in 2012. That's a 10-year wait for a skilled immigrant with a job offer from a U.S. firm.

Factoring in the enormous monetary and legal costs that exclude most potential applicants, a mere small fraction of applicants for employment-based green cards even bother applying with, and there's still a long wait-list. And that's for skilled immigrants. Except for relatives of American citizens and green card holders, there really is no legal way for more than a small number of people to come here legally to work every year. No wonder a black market exists and the expectation of corruption is omnipresent. ref


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## Greeneyedlady (Mar 1, 2015)

Bfgrn said:


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Tough cookies. Millions of people have immigrated legally through the system. They waited and paid. Why should someone who disregards our laws be given a free ride? It's a slap in the face to Law Abiding LEGAL Immigrants.


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## Oldglory1 (Mar 1, 2015)

Bfgrn said:


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Do you think we have annual quotas for legal immigration just for laughs?    Are you really this stupid?   We have 23 million Americans out of work and our social and natural resources are being stretched thin.already and you want more immigrants?   WTH?    We don't need any unskilled, uneducated immigrants.   They are a burden to our society and end up on our welfare coffers via their U.S. born kids.

A black market only exists because the employers want to pay less not that they can't find an American to do the job for a fair wage.   Educate yourself on this issue because you are either totally clueless, hire illegal aliens for more profit,  a dumb bleeding heart liberal or you have ethnic ties to most illegals that are here.      Which is it?


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## Oldglory1 (Mar 1, 2015)

Roadrunner said:


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Your attempt to demonize the average American worker is laughable,  and desperate to say the very least.    Anything to justify the unjustifiable though, right ?    We have sensible immigration laws.   Don't like it tough!


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## Oldglory1 (Mar 1, 2015)

Roadrunner said:


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Most Americans don't desire to work and better themselves?   The difference is they have a right to live and work in this country and illegal aliens do not!    They do not hold the corner of the market on good work ethics either.  Many of them are living off the welfare that they get thru their U.S.  born kids.   Take your anti-American hatred and shove it where the sun don't shine.  Or better yet get the hell out  of this country since our laws mean nothing to you!


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## HereWeGoAgain (Mar 1, 2015)

Oldglory1 said:


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  You just described obama perfectly.....


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## Bfgrn (Mar 1, 2015)

Oldglory1 said:


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Clueless? You have ZERO education on the subject.

Even an educated conservative understands...

On immigration, the evidence is overwhelming; the best way forward is clear.

The forlorn pundit doesn’t even have to make the humanitarian case that immigration reform would be a great victory for human dignity. The cold economic case by itself is so strong.

Increased immigration would boost the U.S. economy. Immigrants are 30 percent more likely to start new businesses than native-born Americans, according to a research summary by Michael Greenstone and Adam Looney of The Hamilton Project. They are more likely to earn patents. A quarter of new high-tech companies with more than $1 million in sales were also founded by the foreign-born.

A study by Madeline Zavodny, an economics professor at Agnes Scott College, found that every additional 100 foreign-born workers in science and technology fields is associated with 262 additional jobs for U.S. natives.

Thanks to the labor of low-skill immigrants, the cost of food, homes and child care comes down, living standards rise and more women can afford to work outside the home.

The second clear finding is that many of the fears associated with immigration, including illegal immigration, are overblown.

Immigrants are doing a reasonable job of assimilating. Almost all of the children of immigrants from Africa and Asia speak English and more than 90 percent of the children of Latin-American immigrants do. New immigrants may start out disproportionately in construction and food-service jobs, but, by second and third generation, their occupation profiles are little different from the native-born.

Immigrants, including illegal immigrants, are not socially disruptive. They are much less likely to wind up in prison or in mental hospitals than the native-born.

Immigrants, both legal and illegal, do not drain the federal budget. It’s true that states and localities have to spend money to educate them when they are children, but, over the course of their lives, they pay more in taxes than they receive in benefits. Furthermore, according to the Congressional Budget Office, giving the current illegals a path to citizenship would increase the taxes they pay by $48 billion and increase the cost of public services they use by $23 billion, thereby producing a surplus of $25 billion.

It’s also looking more likely that immigrants don’t even lower the wages for vulnerable, low-skill Americans. In 2007, the last time we had a big immigration debate, economists were divided on this. One group, using one methodology, found immigration had a negligible effect on low-skill wages. Another group, using another methodology, found that the wages of the low-skilled were indeed hurt.

Since then, as Heidi Shierholz of the Economic Policy Institute explains, methodological advances suggest that the wages of most low-skill workers are probably not significantly affected. It turns out that immigrant workers are not always in direct competition with native-born workers, and, in some cases, they push the native-born upward into jobs that require more communication skills.

Shierholz found that between 1994 and 2007 immigration increased overall American wages by a small amount ($3.68 per week). It decreased the wages of American male high school dropouts by a very small amount ($1.37 per week). And it increased the wages of female high school dropouts by a larger amount ($4.19 per week).

Continue reading the main story


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## Harry Dresden (Mar 1, 2015)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> All persons in the United States are entitled to due process of the law, including those undocumented (_Plyler v. Doe_ (1982)). That one is in the country absent documentation doesn't necessarily mean he is 'illegal,' where one is not 'illegal' until determined as such in a court of law.
> 
> This issue therefore is not one of undocumented immigrants entering the country, but the unwarranted fear and hate of those hostile to immigrants, and their refusal to allow immigration reform that will address the issue in compliance with the Constitution's requirement that all persons in fact be afforded due process of the law.


if you come across the border without letting anyone know you are here, means you are here ILLEGALLY jones......yea i know....i said ILLEGAL instead of being Politically Correct like you and saying "undocumented".....tough....


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## Harry Dresden (Mar 1, 2015)

rdean said:


> USNavyVet said:
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they get those things in my State Dean.....go ahead prove me wrong.....


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## Harry Dresden (Mar 1, 2015)

Bfgrn said:


> Greeneyedlady said:
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we have many citizens who work hard too....quit comparing the general population to you....and not all Mexicans are hard workers,some of them are like you too....


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## Harry Dresden (Mar 1, 2015)

Greeneyedlady said:


> Sure work, then they send the money out of the US. They break our laws. They scam our social systems. They want to live and work here, then pay up everything that they have already taken from us, go back home and get in line.


*They break our laws. They scam our social systems.*
so do lots of Americans..........just sayin.....


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## Bfgrn (Mar 1, 2015)

Harry Dresden said:


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Suck my dick you piece of shit. I have worked hard since I was a kid with a paper route. 

There is an old axiom that is true..."it takes one to KNOW one"


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## Harry Dresden (Mar 1, 2015)

Bfgrn said:


> Greeneyedlady said:
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*and they don't 'scam' our system*

they dont?.....apparently were you live you dont have many illegals.....they have their assholes just like everyone else....


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## Bfgrn (Mar 1, 2015)

Harry Dresden said:


> Greeneyedlady said:
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By FAR the BIGGEST and MOST expensive scam of our social programs are perpetrated by doctors, hospitals, pharmaceutical companies, medical device manufacturers, insurance cartel and corporations.

When those behemoths suck government tit, they hook up auto-milkers.


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## Bfgrn (Mar 1, 2015)

Harry Dresden said:


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Every group has their assholes. But the majority on Hispanics are hard working people. THINK for the first time in your miserable life. NO ONE who takes the risk and effort to uproot themselves, move to a new country with a different language and no sure way of supporting themselves is lazy. 

And getting any government assistance is not easy. It requires filing out numerous forms, interviews with social services, copies of pay checks, documentation up the ass.


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## Harry Dresden (Mar 1, 2015)

Bfgrn said:


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who is the one who said,and i quote....."They work hard and put our citizens to shame".....you or me asshole?.....so the only person in this country who works as hard as a Mexican is you?....fuck you....and if you want homosexual love,go find a gay guy dipshit....


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## Greeneyedlady (Mar 1, 2015)

Harry Dresden said:


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Our citizens pay the price when they get caught, illegals get away with it. They just run and take a new name instead of facing the consequences.


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## Mr Natural (Mar 1, 2015)

Yeah, I can explain it.  They work cheap and Mr. Businessman loves his cheap labor.


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## MaryL (Mar 1, 2015)

Donald Polish said:


> I know it is a big deal for many of us...
> I've always been "against" illegal immigration and do not find anything morally wrong with deporting people who come into the United States illegally. Moreover I support this policy.
> Do you have people who come to the country illegally, who US citizens are now defending. Why? Why do they have any claims to the rights that legal citizens/workers in the US enjoy? They cheated the system, and people don't think they should be punished or deported. How is it fair that thousands of people work their asses off just for a chance to stay in the US while others come in illegally and then are defended against deportation? How can you discourage people from cheating the system if you just reward them if they manage to cross the border illegally?
> When it comes to the children of illegal immigrants, I'm really unsure of what's the best course of action is, so I'd prefer to stick to discussing illegal immigrants who don't have children born in the US.


Don't feel too much quilt about  deporting the parents of illegal aliens, Our immigration laws have so many holes in them you can drive  a truck through them.The parents of anchor babies don't have any qualms using their children as human shields, and that itself is bothersome enough. Send the whole family back, that way families don't get broken up. Everything is copasetic.


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## Harry Dresden (Mar 1, 2015)

Bfgrn said:


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*But the majority on Hispanics are hard working people.*
which i have said in numerous threads here....
*THINK for the first time in your miserable life*
something you should try doing....
* NO ONE who takes the risk and effort to uproot themselves, move to a new country with a different language and no sure way of supporting themselves is lazy. *
who said they were? i sure as hell didnt.....see start thinking about what you post....
*And getting any government assistance is not easy. It requires filing out numerous forms, interviews with social services, copies of pay checks, documentation up the ass*
not that hard in my State.....if they have kids they walk out of the Social Service office with something....


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## Harry Dresden (Mar 1, 2015)

Greeneyedlady said:


> Harry Dresden said:
> 
> 
> > Greeneyedlady said:
> ...


thats not true.....i have seen quite a few either get deported or doing jail time for that in my 45 years living here.....just here in my neighborhood in the last few years i can name 2 men and a woman who got popped for various things.....and i have never seen them again....and when i asked i was told that one is doing time the other 2 got the boot....


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## MaryL (Mar 1, 2015)

The majority of Hispanics are hard working people. Never doubted that. How does that tie in with illegal aliens? Most of us are descendants of legal immigrants, most of which were just as  hard working. I have known enough LEGAL immigrants to realize what a folly defending illegal immigrants is.


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## Greeneyedlady (Mar 1, 2015)

got the boot and then back across the border over here on a month.


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## Greeneyedlady (Mar 1, 2015)

Most Legal immigrants do work hard and follow the laws. It's the illegals who come here and disregard our laws from the day they step across the border without papers.


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## Oldglory1 (Mar 1, 2015)

Bfgrn said:


> Oldglory1 said:
> 
> 
> > Bfgrn said:
> ...



Keep repeating the same old nonsense .  It's fun to watch.  You might want to read the topic heading again.   It's about illegal aliens not "immigrants".


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## Oldglory1 (Mar 1, 2015)

Harry Dresden said:


> Greeneyedlady said:
> 
> 
> > Sure work, then they send the money out of the US. They break our laws. They scam our social systems. They want to live and work here, then pay up everything that they have already taken from us, go back home and get in line.
> ...



Right, and when caught Americans face justice. They can't be deported though..  Illegal aliens can and should be. Obama want to reward them instead though.


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## MaryL (Mar 1, 2015)

Harry Dresden said:


> Greeneyedlady said:
> 
> 
> > Harry Dresden said:
> ...


For all the people that I suspected WHERE illegal immigrants (some even admitted they were), only one was deported. And that was because one of her relatives narced on her. A personal feud. All the rest...NADA. Something smells  fishy here. I once went to a local INS office to report suspected  illegals. Agent Smith said they couldn't do anything, blamed some arcane Regan era laws for them sitting on their freeking  hands. Yeah. Don't enforce laws, because it might actually accomplish something and piss of Hisp-, Illegals I mean.


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## Bfgrn (Mar 1, 2015)

Greeneyedlady said:


> Most Legal immigrants do work hard and follow the laws. It's the illegals who come here and disregard our laws from the day they step across the border without papers.



Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live; it is asking others to live as one wishes to live.
Oscar Wilde


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## Bfgrn (Mar 1, 2015)

MaryL said:


> The majority of Hispanics are hard working people. Never doubted that. How does that tie in with illegal aliens? Most of us are descendants of legal immigrants, most of which were just as  hard working. I have known enough LEGAL immigrants to realize what a folly defending illegal immigrants is.



The REALITY...there is no reasonable legal path...

An immigration black market only exists because the government has made the legal market so small and restricted. For example, *if an Indian waiting for an employment-based green card (EB-3) applied in 2002, he would advance to the next stage sometime in 2012. That's a 10-year wait for a skilled immigrant with a job offer from a U.S. firm.*

Factoring in the enormous monetary and legal costs that exclude most potential applicants, a mere small fraction of applicants for employment-based green cards even bother applying with, and there's still a long wait-list. And that's for skilled immigrants. Except for relatives of American citizens and green card holders, there really is no legal way for more than a small number of people to come here legally to work every year.


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## MaryL (Mar 1, 2015)

Bfgrn said:


> Greeneyedlady said:
> 
> 
> > Most Legal immigrants do work hard and follow the laws. It's the illegals who come here and disregard our laws from the day they step across the border without papers.
> ...


Wasn't Oscar Wilde a glorified  pedophile? Witty as hell though. Finding chinks in the armor of logic to defend the indefensible. I have known enough European immigrants that worked hard, filed all their papers, jumped through all the flaming hoops and slings and arrows to get in to America. Do we hold their struggles so cheap as to just allow others to wander in willy nilly and accept them in the same light? I won't and I hope if  any of you have any  standards of right and wrong,  you won't either.


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## Bfgrn (Mar 1, 2015)

MaryL said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > Greeneyedlady said:
> ...



No, he wasn't a glorified pedophile. And whatever he was is totally irrelevant. 

Reality sucks. They are going to continue to sneak across the borders no matter how hard you stamp your feet. The laws are too restrictive, too expensive and too corrupt. HOW many years is a reasonable waiting time? If it takes 10 years for an Indian waiting for an employment-based green card (EB-3) who applied in 2002, to advance to the next stage sometime in 2012. That's a 10-year wait for a skilled immigrant with a job offer from a U.S. firm. A lifetime is not infinite. Use your brain.


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## Greeneyedlady (Mar 1, 2015)

Bfgrn said:


> Greeneyedlady said:
> 
> 
> > Most Legal immigrants do work hard and follow the laws. It's the illegals who come here and disregard our laws from the day they step across the border without papers.
> ...


Fine, let them go live their own way in their own country.


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## Greeneyedlady (Mar 1, 2015)

Bfgrn said:


> MaryL said:
> 
> 
> > The majority of Hispanics are hard working people. Never doubted that. How does that tie in with illegal aliens? Most of us are descendants of legal immigrants, most of which were just as  hard working. I have known enough LEGAL immigrants to realize what a folly defending illegal immigrants is.
> ...



There are quotas for a reason. Millions of Americans out of work right now and you would rather a lawbreaker have the job?


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## Bfgrn (Mar 1, 2015)

Greeneyedlady said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > MaryL said:
> ...



Immigrants can be depicted on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays as indolent leeches who flock to the United States to go on welfare — and condemned on Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays for taking away jobs that would otherwise go to Americans.

The stolen job myth - Opinion - The Boston Globe


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## Greeneyedlady (Mar 1, 2015)

Illegals can be called all those things everyday. They are not immigrants. Immigrants go thru the channels. Illegals are criminals.


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## Care4all (Mar 1, 2015)

Oldglory1 said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > Yarddog said:
> ...


Was wondering, who's going to do those jobs of the boomers, when all the boomers retire?  Will the jobs just disappear?  Boomers are expected to live 20- 30 years in retirement!!


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## Care4all (Mar 1, 2015)

I think if Congress were serious about deporting all illegals here, THEY WOULD FUND THAT MEASURE....  but since they only fund the deportation of a few hundred thousand illegals a year, it would take over 20-30 years to deport the illegals we have now with no additions.

THIS IS A PROBLEM.

A PROBLEM THAT EXISTS.

RIGHT NOW, IN THE PRESENT.

And since Congress has not funded the deportation of the millions and millions of illegals here, then I believe measures HAVE TO BE put in place to deal with the illegals, and the President is CORRECT in approaching the deportation of the illegals by PRIORITIZING who gets deported FIRST and LAST, with the little amount of money INS is given each year in the congressional budget, for the purpose of deporting illegals.

the criminals- the gang members and gangsters, and drug dealers, and rapists etc should be the focus, should be deported FIRST, SINCE the money allotted for deportation is so limited....

AND the parents of the USA citizen children, who are working and have a clean record should be the very LAST people deported.  I agree with Obama....especially since Congress has failed to enact any immigration sollutions, he HAS TO PRIORITIZE with INS and the undesirables is where INS should spend their limited money specific to deportation and they should focus on them.


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## Greeneyedlady (Mar 1, 2015)

Don't think he's been prioritizing at all.
Over 36,000 violent illegal rapists, murderers, etc. were released from prison while they were up for deportation in 2013 alone.


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## Greeneyedlady (Mar 1, 2015)

Might as well call it, bambi's gift   'coming to a neighborhood near you"


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## Harry Dresden (Mar 1, 2015)

Greeneyedlady said:


> got the boot and then back across the border over here on a month.


for some yea,im sure that happens.....


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## Harry Dresden (Mar 1, 2015)

Greeneyedlady said:


> Most Legal immigrants do work hard and follow the laws. It's the illegals who come here and disregard our laws from the day they step across the border without papers.


outside of being here illegally most illegals follow the laws like the rest of us.....


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## Harry Dresden (Mar 1, 2015)

Oldglory1 said:


> Harry Dresden said:
> 
> 
> > Greeneyedlady said:
> ...


and so if an illegal is caught scamming our system you are saying nothing is done and Obama gives them a bowl of soup and a new hat?.....like i said above about the 3 i know about.....2 deported one doing time....


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## Harry Dresden (Mar 1, 2015)

MaryL said:


> Harry Dresden said:
> 
> 
> > Greeneyedlady said:
> ...


the 3 i am referring to were caught doing something illegal outside of just being here illegally....


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## Bfgrn (Mar 2, 2015)

Greeneyedlady said:


> Illegals can be called all those things everyday. They are not immigrants. Immigrants go thru the channels. Illegals are criminals.



Our founding fathers were 'criminals'... had they lost the revolutionary war, they would have been hanged by the neck until they were dead.

You are not very bright.


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## Oldglory1 (Mar 2, 2015)

Care4all said:


> I think if Congress were serious about deporting all illegals here, THEY WOULD FUND THAT MEASURE....  but since they only fund the deportation of a few hundred thousand illegals a year, it would take over 20-30 years to deport the illegals we have now with no additions.
> 
> THIS IS A PROBLEM.
> 
> ...



The parents are here illegally and working with either a fake or stolen ID or getting paid under the table aka tax evasion.    All  of these crimes are felonies.


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## Oldglory1 (Mar 2, 2015)

Care4all said:


> Oldglory1 said:
> 
> 
> > Bfgrn said:
> ...



Adult Americans and legal immigrants, that's who!!!


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## Greeneyedlady (Mar 2, 2015)

Bfgrn said:


> Greeneyedlady said:
> 
> 
> > Illegals can be called all those things everyday. They are not immigrants. Immigrants go thru the channels. Illegals are criminals.
> ...



Different era. There was no Constitution/Immigration laws at the time of the Revolutionary War.
Not very bright, are you?


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## Bfgrn (Mar 2, 2015)

Greeneyedlady said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > Greeneyedlady said:
> ...



Actually I am very bright...

Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.
Thomas Jefferson

People crushed by laws, have no hope but to evade power. If the laws are their enemies, they will be enemies to the law; and those who have most to hope and nothing to lose will always be dangerous.
Edmund Burke


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## Oldglory1 (Mar 2, 2015)

Bfgrn said:


> Greeneyedlady said:
> 
> 
> > Bfgrn said:
> ...



Cute, but without laws there is chaos.and anarchy.


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## emilynghiem (Mar 3, 2015)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> All persons in the United States are entitled to due process of the law, including those undocumented (_Plyler v. Doe_ (1982)). That one is in the country absent documentation doesn't necessarily mean he is 'illegal,' where one is not 'illegal' until determined as such in a court of law.
> 
> This issue therefore is not one of undocumented immigrants entering the country, but the unwarranted fear and hate of those hostile to immigrants, and their refusal to allow immigration reform that will address the issue in compliance with the Constitution's requirement that all persons in fact be afforded due process of the law.


C_Clayton_Jones
You seem to leave out that if someone breaks laws they owe restitution.
That is natural law. So there is a debt created, or else it isn't fair to people who didn't break the law.

I can't help but notice the weird pattern of thinking,
that unless or until you are caught and convicted, then none of this counts.

What's worse is the poor blame the wealthy and the rich corporations when they act like they have immunity 
"unless caught and ordered by courts"
While the right blame the poor for acting entitled "until and unless proven guilty by due process."

There must be accountability for violating laws.
So there must be some restitution owed that is proportional to the degree of violations
or it isn't fair to people who didn't break the laws.

I notice my friends who live by the Bible were citing the passages
on not oppressing the stranger but practicing charity to the foreigner.

And I had to point out that one must follow and respect civil authorities,
and can't just break the laws without owing or offering restitution.

It's funny how liberals CLAIM not to recognize natural laws and rights coming from God,
but when it suits their arguments, well, suddenly these rights are free and not dependent on govt.

That's where I disagree. I do believe freedom comes from God, as part of human free will,
but when it comes to citizenship and privileges,and laws for registering because services are paid for
with tax dollars, that part IS granted by the state and those rules should be respected.

It isn't free.

So there is a difference between spiritual freedom which is freely given
and political freedom which isn't. And people seem to mix up the two.


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## emilynghiem (Mar 3, 2015)

percysunshine said:


> Donald Polish said:
> 
> 
> > I know it is a big deal for many of us...
> ...



I guess for health, safety and criminal issues,
once people are here illegally it is best to document or enroll them with some sponsoring
organization or legal guardian, so that if there are any health issues,
employment and education issues, and/or any crime is committed either
against such persons or by such persons, there is financial and legal responsibility taken.

I would like to see Obama's ACA exchanges and enrollment networks expanded
to register all residents of illegal or transitional status, so their education, work,
and services can be accounted for, similar to how students enroll in a university
that accepts them, and tracks their scholastic credits and work-study hours,
medical records and costs of school, room and board, health coverage, etc.

Instead of the federal govt micro-managing law abiding working citizens, deprived of liberty without
having committed any crimes, the ACA mandates should
apply to voluntary participants only, or mandatory participants if they owe the public
restitution and costs of convicted crimes.  This program could cover both inmates transitioning
back into society, or immigrant workers applying to become citizens. Any violations that either
one incurs should require proportional restitution in terms of fines or work hours owed.


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## Oldglory1 (Mar 3, 2015)

emilynghiem said:


> percysunshine said:
> 
> 
> > Donald Polish said:
> ...



NO, illegal aliens need to be deported instead of enrolled in anything or allowed to stay here.  It's the law!


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## EatMorChikin (Mar 3, 2015)

Bfgrn said:


> We sure as hell don't want these people paying taxes and contributing their fair share.



You are obviously not smart enough to see the true picture. There is probably a forum someplace for people aged 9-13, that might be more on your level of critical thinking.


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## EatMorChikin (Mar 3, 2015)

Bfgrn said:


> Greeneyedlady said:
> 
> 
> > sure they can pay their back taxes, pay back for the food stamps, medical, education etc. that they have used for years, then they can go back to their own country and wait at the end of the line behind everyone else, and go through the process.
> ...



Speak for yourself you fucking traitorous ****.


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## EatMorChikin (Mar 3, 2015)

Oldglory1 said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > Yarddog said:
> ...



He is an anti American traitor, He will use any argument to cheer on the invasion..


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## EatMorChikin (Mar 3, 2015)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > Yarddog said:
> ...



If they are HERE, they are HERE illegally.


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## EatMorChikin (Mar 3, 2015)

Bfgrn said:


> Oldglory1 said:
> 
> 
> > Bfgrn said:
> ...



This is about illegal immigration. And those people are not here to start businesses. They are the bottom of the barrel, even Cauleron is pushing the traitors in the white house to keep them. Why do you think that is?


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## rdean (Mar 3, 2015)

percysunshine said:


> Donald Polish said:
> 
> 
> > I know it is a big deal for many of us...
> ...



'Can someone explain a legitimate argument for protecting illegal immigrants in the US?'

Gladly.  There are 5 million jobs available in the US.

Report Economy Will Face Shortage of 5 Million Workers in 2020 - US News

There Are Now More Than Five Million Job Openings in America - Bloomberg Business

Business knows it has the right wingnut vote sewn up.  But it needs skilled workers.  Would you turn over a million dollar piece of equipment to an ignorant anti science wingnut?  Of course not.

At the same time, the educated tend to vote Democrat.  For obvious reasons.  And illegals can't vote.

This is where it get's tricky.  Republicans are afraid these people will take THEIR jobs.  Only Republicans are too lazy to do field work and don't have the technical background to do anything skilled.  So of course, illegals won't take THEIR jobs because Republicans aren't qualified for much of anything.  Their only real talent is trying to bring down the country and complaining about paying their fair share.  Even they can't name a single GOP policy for the last 40 years that has helped the majority of Americans and the reason they want to put troops everywhere is because reality freaks them out.  But no matter how many troops there are, Republicans will never feel safe.  There will never be enough troops.  Republicans are simply too out of phase with this reality.


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## EatMorChikin (Mar 3, 2015)

Harry Dresden said:


> Greeneyedlady said:
> 
> 
> > Most Legal immigrants do work hard and follow the laws. It's the illegals who come here and disregard our laws from the day they step across the border without papers.
> ...



"Outside of being here illegally"


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## EatMorChikin (Mar 3, 2015)

emilynghiem said:


> percysunshine said:
> 
> 
> > Donald Polish said:
> ...



Would you be willing to be the 1st to step forward and donate to that cause. Because I don't want one cent of my money going towards giving illegal invaders free health care.

You and all other traitorous progressive fools could pay for that, sounds great.


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## percysunshine (Mar 3, 2015)

rdean said:


> percysunshine said:
> 
> 
> > Donald Polish said:
> ...



I asked for a definition, not an example. As it happens, your answer is neither.

There are 90 million employable people in the US who do not have jobs. Given the size of that number, most of them must have voted for Obama, or he would not be President.

Why does he hate them rdean?

.

.


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## emilynghiem (Mar 3, 2015)

EatMorChikin said:


> emilynghiem said:
> 
> 
> > percysunshine said:
> ...



EatMorChikin That's my whole point.

Hold the wrongdoers responsible for their own costs, not forcing law abiding taxpayers to pay for it unless (a) they volunteer to do so as charity (b) they have equal options of lending to govt similar to Federal Reserve investors and either get tax breaks or paid interest as student or business loans, paid by the borrowers

If Democrats want to enroll all these immigrants under ACA exchanges to manage the credits back and forth, great. Why not get maximum use of these systems and make them work for the people who WANT to make those systems work.

As a Constitutionalist, I believe those mandates need to be voluntary, and govt can only impose mandates on people convicted of crimes who owe restitution and lose liberties as part of due process to work out terms for paying back their costs to the public. But even the Restorative Justice programs that work, are run on a voluntary basis. So it can be mandatory to pay back restitution for crimes, but the terms have to be agreed upon by consent of the parties participating or it doesn't work effectively.

I believe the Democrats should take on the task of managing all the prison and immigrant population as a full time responsibility per state. And because the ACA was passed and pushed unconstitutionally against the beliefs of half the nation, the restitution for that should be to correct the problems, starting with Obama, Pelosi and other leaders most responsible. As a Democrat, I have already worked with other community members who created model solutions toward the same end, so I am willing to volunteer and put the corrections together. But I believe it should be  funded and managed voluntarily, and only mandatory for Democrats who conspired to violate civil rights by pushing the ACA mandates that were unconstitutional and in violation of federal duties and oath of office. 

Although I contested that from the state, I am willing to consult and volunteer with fellow Democrats to take responsibility for the programs as promised to constituents, which are not constitutional to mandate on a federal level, but are constitutional to offer on a state level on a voluntary basis of participation and funding. Only those who broke laws and committed abuses and violations should be required to fund and follow those programs as part of restitution to the public.


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## gallantwarrior (Mar 3, 2015)

We should implement and enforce the same immigration laws that Mexico does.  Problem solved.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Mar 3, 2015)

EatMorChikin said:


> HereWeGoAgain said:
> 
> 
> > Bfgrn said:
> ...



 Put down the joint and read again.....................


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## Greeneyedlady (Mar 3, 2015)

EatMorChikin said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > Greeneyedlady said:
> ...


You'd best spit out the feathers. It clogs the natural bodily functions and ends coming back up. Just so you know eating more chicken feathers doesn't clean out your system, or brush out stupidity  Thus we see you spewing vile regurgitated fowl and really nasty filth. Cleanse your system and brush your teeth. Get an enema. Then I will consider addressing you again. Until you do, you are nothing but the chicken shit I spread on my lawn as fertilizer.


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## Greeneyedlady (Mar 3, 2015)

Repeal the anchor baby act. It's simple enough. There is no other country the size of the US that allows an illegal to use and abuse their social systems and pay for an illegal to have a child here and give them rights without paying. Deport them all.


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## gallantwarrior (Mar 4, 2015)

Bfgrn said:


> Yarddog said:
> 
> 
> > Bfgrn said:
> ...


Until they realize that they can hop on that same gravy train.  Then the newest criminal trespassers can pick your grapes.


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## gallantwarrior (Mar 4, 2015)

Oldglory1 said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > Yarddog said:
> ...


Take away all the "free" govt bs and you'd be surprised how many Americans would take these jobs.


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## EatMorChikin (Mar 4, 2015)

Greeneyedlady said:


> EatMorChikin said:
> 
> 
> > Bfgrn said:
> ...



Whatever you say ding dong.


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## Greeneyedlady (Mar 4, 2015)

LOL! "weak"


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## quorthon (Mar 4, 2015)




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## Oldglory1 (Mar 4, 2015)

rdean said:


> percysunshine said:
> 
> 
> > Donald Polish said:
> ...



So illegal aliens have been coming here for decades to fill a supposed shortage of workers in 2020?   LOL!   Only Republicans have done blue-collared jobs like construction, landscaping and lost their jobs to illegal aliens?    None of those Americans workers that were displaced were Democrats because they were too smart for those jobs?    As for crop picking no American whether they be they be a Republican or a Democrat will make a career out of that for the obvious reasons.  But guess what oh clueless one we have the unlimited H-2A visas for legal, foreign crop pickers so there is no reason to hire illegal aliens for that job except for pure greed.   Most black Americans are Democrats so why aren't you bitching about them not picking corps?   Hypocrite!

There are not 5 million job openings for unskillled, uneducated people and that is what they illegal aliens are.    There are not 5 million jobs openings even for skilled workers that can't be filled by an Americans.

It is a known fact that some illegals vote by cheating the system. however that's not the issue.    The Democrats are pandering to the Hispanic citizen vote by promising their illegal amigos amnesty in spite of the fact that it Is a detriment to our country.  Hispanics apparently think their ethnic  group is above our immigration laws. with their tribal mentality.

You can take your other smears, lies and hatred of conservative Americans and shove it where  the sun don't shine!


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## Conservative65 (Mar 5, 2015)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> All persons in the United States are entitled to due process of the law, including those undocumented (_Plyler v. Doe_ (1982)). That one is in the country absent documentation doesn't necessarily mean he is 'illegal,' where one is not 'illegal' until determined as such in a court of law.
> 
> This issue therefore is not one of undocumented immigrants entering the country, but the unwarranted fear and hate of those hostile to immigrants, and their refusal to allow immigration reform that will address the issue in compliance with the Constitution's requirement that all persons in fact be afforded due process of the law.



Why do you hate and are such a traitor to your own country?


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## Teddy Pollins (Mar 6, 2015)

My opinion: here are some arguments not _for_ illegal immigration, but _against_ increasing and harsh punishment of illegal immigration:

The severity of punishment should fit the severity of the crime. We don't put people in prison for, say, double-parking, for instance.
We need to treat people humanely, no matter how much they have offended our personal sense of morality or justice.
Illegal immigrants actually add materially to our economy and even our tax base.
Illegal immigrants are often performing work Americans are largely unwilling to perform.


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## Unkotare (Mar 6, 2015)

Greeneyedlady said:


> Repeal the anchor baby act. It's simple enough. There is no other country the size of the US that allows an illegal to use and abuse their social systems and pay for an illegal to have a child here and give them rights without paying. Deport them all.



You have no idea what you are talking about.


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## Oldglory1 (Mar 7, 2015)

Teddy Pollins said:


> My opinion: here are some arguments not _for_ illegal immigration, but _against_ increasing and harsh punishment of illegal immigration:
> 
> The severity of punishment should fit the severity of the crime. We don't put people in prison for, say, double-parking, for instance.
> We need to treat people humanely, no matter how much they have offended our personal sense of morality or justice.
> ...



You're so out of touch with reality that it isn't even funny and by the way what part of we have immigration laws aren't you comprehending?  Educate yourself on this subject instead of spouting anti-American propaganda and lies.


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## timslash (Mar 16, 2015)

Of course no! I understand that  illegals are "useful" for our country and for economy, but not when their number is SO HIGH!
And of course somebody will talk about cheap workers or something else, but i don't think it's "Legitimate arguments"


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## danielpalos (Mar 16, 2015)

Donald Polish said:


> I know it is a big deal for many of us...
> I've always been "against" illegal immigration and do not find anything morally wrong with deporting people who come into the United States illegally. Moreover I support this policy.
> Do you have people who come to the country illegally, who US citizens are now defending. Why? Why do they have any claims to the rights that legal citizens/workers in the US enjoy? They cheated the system, and people don't think they should be punished or deported. How is it fair that thousands of people work their asses off just for a chance to stay in the US while others come in illegally and then are defended against deportation? How can you discourage people from cheating the system if you just reward them if they manage to cross the border illegally?
> When it comes to the children of illegal immigrants, I'm really unsure of what's the best course of action is, so I'd prefer to stick to discussing illegal immigrants who don't have children born in the US.



It has to do with our federal form of government.  Immigration into the Union is no longer a States' right, since 1808.  Thus, the several States have no Constitutional basis to care (under our limited form of Government), if someone is from out of State or from out of state.

States have a right to ensure Commerce is lawful within the State via their inspection laws.

We also have a federal doctrine and State laws regarding the concept of employment at will.

And, we already pay taxes for our general government.

The private sector should not be burdened with a public sector task.


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## Oldglory1 (Mar 16, 2015)

timslash said:


> Of course no! I understand that  illegals are "useful" for our country and for economy, but not when their number is SO HIGH!
> And of course somebody will talk about cheap workers or something else, but i don't think it's "Legitimate arguments"



They are only useful to the greedy employers that hire them.   The rest of us suffer from loss of jobs, reduced wages and higher taxes because of their enormous social costs.   Not to mention our crowded schools, jails and hospitals and higher crime rates which includes them stealing an American's ID to work and the pain and suffering from that.


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## danielpalos (Mar 16, 2015)

Oldglory1 said:


> timslash said:
> 
> 
> > Of course no! I understand that  illegals are "useful" for our country and for economy, but not when their number is SO HIGH!
> ...


It is why it is important for the People to understand that there is no appeal to ignorance of our Commerce Clause and that we should not be losing money on Commerce at our borders.


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## Treeshepherd (Mar 17, 2015)

Rain during a drought is welcome. Rain during a flood is not.

Same with immigration. There are times when a country needs it, and other times when it exacerbates the problems of a country. That dynamic is evident in the rise and fall of the Roman Empire.


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## danielpalos (Mar 17, 2015)

It only seems bad now, because the right cannot find Good Capitalists to make money with our Commerce Clause and an official Mint.  

Even illegal immigration was not a problem with massive federal budget surpluses.


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## Wry Catcher (Mar 17, 2015)

USNavyVet said:


> They vote Democrat because the Democrats give them money, drivers licenses, and welfare benefits and that is why some protect illegal immigrants.




Grow up.  A driver's license is not a passport or de facto evidence of citizenship.  It is an ID, one which Identifies the holder as a non citizen.  It also means the holder of the license has some driver training and understands the rules of the road.

As for welfare, 

"The extent to which residents of the United States who are not U.S. citizens should be eligible for federally funded public aid has been a contentious issue since the 1990s. This issue meets at the intersection of two major policy areas: immigration policy and welfare policy. The eligibility of noncitizens for public assistance programs is based on a complex set of rules that are determined largely by the type of noncitizen in question and the nature of services being offered. Over the past 18 years, Congress has enacted significant changes in U.S. immigration policy and welfare policy. Congress has exercised oversight of revisions made by the 1996 welfare reform law (the Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act, P.L. 104-193)—including the rules governing noncitizen eligibility for public assistance that it established—and legislation covering programs with major restrictions on noncitizens’ eligibility (e.g., food stamps/SNAP, Medicaid)."

Link:  http://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL33809.pdf

You have a problem with this, send Boehner a letter and tell him.  He and McConnell refuse to put comprehensive Immigration Reform in a bill solely for political reasons.  Their base wants 'em all deported, as you likely do.  The fact is to do so is fiscally irresponsible as each person is required do process, including representation by an attorney.

There is also a factor of concern to all but the most callous conservatives, the so called anchor babies, a topic which might require a repeal of a part of the 14th Amendment (read section one), and those children brought into the United States as minors who have no experience living anywhere else and in many cases speak and understand English only.


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## danielpalos (Mar 17, 2015)

Dear Persons on the right, 

There is no willful appeal to ignorance of our Commerce Clause; we should not be losing money on Commerce at our borders.  

Only Bad or incompetent Capitalists, do that.


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## Oldglory1 (Mar 17, 2015)

Wry Catcher said:


> USNavyVet said:
> 
> 
> > They vote Democrat because the Democrats give them money, drivers licenses, and welfare benefits and that is why some protect illegal immigrants.
> ...



You're the one who needs to grow up!   We have immigration laws and quotas in place for good reasons.  Illegal immigration negates that sane policy.    Why would we conservatives contact our elected officials and ask them to pass an amnesty which is exactly what CIR is rather than enforcing our immigration laws and removing the incentives for illegal aliens to remain here? 

Illegal aliens gets all kinds of welfare thru their U.S. born kids.   Birthright citizenship should be denied to them which is another incentive why they come here.

As for the ids they drag over our border illegally their parents shouldn't be rewarded for that by allowing them to remain here.   They know the culture and language of their homeland otherwise how do you think they communicate with their parents? 

This isn't being calloused nor is it a conservative vs liberal issue.   This is a American law issue.


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## Wry Catcher (Mar 17, 2015)

Oldglory1 said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > USNavyVet said:
> ...



Read the 14th Amendment to the Constitution and the link I provided.  Then consider the cost of due process in doing what you advocate.  We are a nation of laws, and it is callous to toss someone, who was born elsewhere and brought to the US as an infant, back across the border.  The law requires due process and it is very expensive.

Local and state agencies do not have the standing to enforce Federal Laws.  Immigration is a Federal Responsibility and speaking from experience, when we arrested a person who entered the country illegally and we notified INS (now ICE) we rarely got a return call.  Thus, many non citizens would be arraigned, provided the Public Defender, tried by the District Attorney and if convicted interviewed by the Probation Officer, sentenced to probation,  jailed or placed in prison all on the states dime.

"illegal aliens" get employment from businesses, big and small, and industry, they do not get TANF under normal circumstances.  Get the facts, the issue is not as simple as you hope it to be.


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## Wry Catcher (Mar 17, 2015)

Well, it's been an hour so we can dismiss a couple of more posters as serious, informed and honest.  My question is why do people believe the conservative media - radio, TV and print - and never follow Reagan's advice to verify?


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## danielpalos (Mar 17, 2015)

Oldglory1 said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > USNavyVet said:
> ...


There really is no appeal to ignorance of our Commerce Clause in this capital matter.  Why are we losing money on Commerce at our borders.  Are there no Good Capitalists to be found, even on the right?


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## danielpalos (Mar 17, 2015)

Wry Catcher said:


> Well, it's been an hour so we can dismiss a couple of more posters as serious, informed and honest.  My question is why do people believe the conservative media - radio, TV and print - and never follow Reagan's advice to verify?


The several States ceded their former States' sovereign right over immigration into the State in favor of a federal right over immigration into the Union since 1808.


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## Oldglory1 (Mar 17, 2015)

Wry Catcher said:


> Oldglory1 said:
> 
> 
> > Wry Catcher said:
> ...



It's a hell of a lot more expensive to allow illegal aliens to remain here than to seek deportations for them either voluntarily or involuntarily.   By not enforcing our immigration laws it just encourages more to come here.   Only and utter idiot wouldn't understand that.   Well if the shoe fits..........


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## danielpalos (Mar 17, 2015)

Oldglory1 said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > Oldglory1 said:
> ...


There really is no appeal to ignorance of our Commerce Clause in this capital matter. Why are we losing money on Commerce at our borders. Are there no Good Capitalists to be found, even on the right?


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## Wry Catcher (Mar 17, 2015)

Oldglory1 said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > Oldglory1 said:
> ...



First of all, fuck you and take that shoe and shove it up your ass!

That said, many of those who are here without papers work, they replace roofs, cut lawns and trees, cook in restaurants, pay sales taxes and buy goods and services. Many own homes, pay real estate and special district taxes, thus they contribute to our overall economy.

Your ignorance is even more pronounced than your bigotry,  I suggest you look into the billing rate for an immigration attorney, and figure out the costs to hire administrative law judges and the number of US Deputy Attorney's needed to provide evidence, evidence collected by ICE agents, plus the clerical help, office space and the cost of detention - contracted out to local jails - all paid for by John Q Taxpayer.


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## Wry Catcher (Mar 17, 2015)

Why is it the conservative element on this message board are so dumb?


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## danielpalos (Mar 17, 2015)

Wry Catcher said:


> Why is it the conservative element on this message board are so dumb?


They believe they are right simply because they are on the right?


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## Oldglory1 (Mar 18, 2015)

Wry Catcher said:


> Oldglory1 said:
> 
> 
> > Wry Catcher said:
> ...



So it's bigoted not to want foreigners to violate our immigration laws, steal jobs from Americans, commit felony ID theft or income tax evasion by getting paid under the table?   The jobs mentioned Americans have always been ones that they will do.  Who do you think did them before the arrival of cheap, illegal labor to make the rich richer?  If Americans were to get those jobs back they in turn would be buying houses, paying taxes and contributing to our economy.  Why are YOU so bigoted against the American worker/taxpayer, you hypocrite!  If anyone is the ignorant  fool .....it's you!

There are virtually no costs in self-deportations.   E-verify which will remove the job incentives and removing birthright citizenship for their kids leaves them no reason to remain here or to keep coming here illegally.  With their enormous social costs we would be saving billions in tax dollars also.   Even Homeland Security has said it is cheaper to deport them than to allow them to remain here.   Now with all that being said welcome to my ignore list you ignorant anti-American POS!


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## danielpalos (Mar 18, 2015)

Oldglory1 said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > Oldglory1 said:
> ...



It is bigoted to believe any form of Prohibition is more effective than Commerce, well regulated with our Commerce Clause.


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## Wry Catcher (Mar 18, 2015)

Oldglory1 said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > Oldglory1 said:
> ...



Willful Ignorance seems to be fitting, given your rant.  Too bad you won't read my response, I would point out that the first paragraph of your rant indicts employers for illegal activity - something you missed (maybe you aren't *willfully* ignorant, but I digress) and the employee is simply seeking a better, maybe safer, place to live and work.  Both may be culpable of a crime, but morally I'd would side with the immigrant.

Now, as to your angry and childish ad hominem, I am not insulted.  It was one more bit of evidence that you are driven by your emotions and thus never likly to post anything of substance or thoughtful.  It's sad, because people all over the world will read your comments and that will reflect poorly on our nation's people.


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## danielpalos (Mar 18, 2015)

Thank you, Persons on the right, for your free samples of your version of a moral of "goodwill toward men".


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