# Vietnam War and question for the boomer generation



## longly (May 26, 2021)

*In science, one verifies one's observations by submitting them to peer review. I remember something very clearly from the Vietnam War, but liberal friends and acquaintances tell me it never happened. I  have done internet research, but I can't find anything in regards to this issue. Now I know she made those comments before the internet, but they should be in the history of the time.  So here is the question for all  the boomer generation that may be on this site: I remember Jane Fonda praising the Khmer Rouge for their victory in  Cambodia; do you remember it?   Do you have a source that would back up my memories?*


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## Ringel05 (May 26, 2021)

longly said:


> *In science, one verifies one's observations by submitting them to peer review. I remember something very clearly from the Vietnam War  ,but liberal friends and acquaintances tell me it never happened. I  have done internet research, but I can't find anything in regards to this issue. Now I know she made those comments before the internet, but they should in the history of the time.  So here is the question for all the boomer generation that may be on this site. I remember Jane Fonda praising the Khmer Rouge for their victory in  Cambodia; do you remember it?   Do you have a source that would back up my memories?*


Jane Fonda praising the Khmer Rouge at DuckDuckGo


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## White 6 (May 26, 2021)

longly said:


> *In science, one verifies one's observations by submitting them to peer review. I remember something very clearly from the Vietnam War, but liberal friends and acquaintances tell me it never happened. I  have done internet research, but I can't find anything in regards to this issue. Now I know she made those comments before the internet, but they should be in the history of the time.  So here is the question for all  the boomer generation that may be on this site: I remember Jane Fonda praising the Khmer Rouge for their victory in  Cambodia; do you remember it?   Do you have a source that would back up my memories?*


How bout this found with DuckDuckGo:
Even in 1979, when the world was aware of the millions of Vietnamese and Cambodians murdered and starved to death by their communist victors, when even Joan Baez protested the Khmer Rouge slaughter, Jane Fonda refused to join in. As she then told the National Press Club, she was unable to confirm the accuracy of the charges.

This is more upsetting:
In 1972, having accused the U.S. of committing "genocide" by fighting communist takeover of South Vietnam, she volunteered for 10 vehement propaganda broadcasts for Radio Hanoi that called President Nixon a "new-type Hitler" and encouraged South Vietnamese soldiers to desert being "cannon fodder for U.S. imperialism," asserted U.S. pilots' bombing "makes one a war criminal," and she gleefully appeared around the world filmed in the firing seat of a North Vietnamese anti-air gun.

This piece of film she now admits was a "betrayal of the country that gave me privilege."

The hypocrisy and shallowness of this admission was quickly exposed when Jane Fonda defiantly added "I won't apologize" for her propaganda appearance with U.S. POWs, showing no remorse for some tortured for refusing to appear with her, by explaining in her morally blind view "both sides were using POWs for propaganda."

All the above from Jane Fonda is to be pitied


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## Mr Natural (May 26, 2021)

Fifty thousand young guys (many enslaved via the draft) died needlessly  in that fucking useless fiasco. It made me ashamed to be an American.

I escaped it by joining the Navy.

And Jane Fonda remains a hero of mine for doing what she did.


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## progressive hunter (May 26, 2021)

longly said:


> *In science, one verifies one's observations by submitting them to peer review. I remember something very clearly from the Vietnam War, but liberal friends and acquaintances tell me it never happened. I  have done internet research, but I can't find anything in regards to this issue. Now I know she made those comments before the internet, but they should be in the history of the time.  So here is the question for all  the boomer generation that may be on this site: I remember Jane Fonda praising the Khmer Rouge for their victory in  Cambodia; do you remember it?   Do you have a source that would back up my memories?*


peer review is only needed when the facts dont support the hypothesis,,


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## rightwinger (May 26, 2021)

Jane Fonda was right about her objection to the war
Millions died unnecessarily 

Blame Bob Hope


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## White 6 (May 26, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Jane Fonda was right about her objection to the war
> Millions died unnecessarily
> 
> Blame Bob Hope


When we have troops is the field, you don't go to the war zone to be photographed with the enemy supporting the enemy of your own troop, and making propaganda use of captured US troops unless you are a traitorous, spoiled bitch.  She will always be Hanoi Jane.


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## rightwinger (May 26, 2021)

White 6 said:


> rightwinger said:
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> > Jane Fonda was right about her objection to the war
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And you don’t lie to the American people to engage in a senseless war and wrap yourself in the American Flag while doing it.

Jane Fonda was more patriotic than the war hawks


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## Hugo Furst (May 26, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Jane Fonda was right about her objection to the war
> Millions died unnecessarily
> 
> Blame Bob Hope





rightwinger said:


> Jane Fonda was right about her objection to the war
> Millions died unnecessarily



She was wrong to piss on their graves.


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## rightwinger (May 26, 2021)

If Bob Hope had spoken out against the war like Jane Fonda, Mainstream America would have stopped supporting it.  

Instead, he sold the virtue of the war to the American public


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## rightwinger (May 26, 2021)

WillHaftawaite said:


> She was wrong to piss on their graves.


Actually, her opposition to the war prevented more graves


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## rightwinger (May 26, 2021)

Mr Clean said:


> Fifty thousand young guys (many enslaved via the draft) died needlessly  in that fucking useless fiasco. It made me ashamed to be an American.
> 
> I escaped it by joining the Navy.
> 
> And Jane Fonda remains a hero of mine for doing what she did.



50 years later, History shows Jane Fonda was correct.

US Vietnam policy was a disaster


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## Mr Natural (May 26, 2021)

Why were we even there?

Was it that domino theory nonsense?


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## White 6 (May 26, 2021)

rightwinger said:


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She could have protested over here in the streets all she wanted.  She became a traitor the moment she landed in Viet Nam.  I don't pick our enemies and never have.  I was trained for the enforcement side of the equation.  Those troops mostly did not choose to go, but they went and in the field deserved every bit of the support of the American people.  She is no patriot and never was.  When you go out of your way to support the enemy of the troops in the field, in the country where they are fighting and even use forced, captured troops of your country for your propaganda message against your own troops, your just a lousy traitor, deserving of the scorn she rightly deserved and still deserves.


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## Mikeoxenormous (May 26, 2021)

After WWII, there were calls from around the world that imperialism should be put to rest and countries should all have their own representation.  Viet Nam, with Ho Chi Min had begged the UN and United States to have his country be free of the French imperialism rule.  But the French who were devastated by the war, didnt want to relinquish their rule of the gooks of Viet Nam, and the UN and Truman agreed with France.  So Ho Chi, went to war with the French, and we all know how that ended....

Thank the French and Democrats for always getting US fucked....


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## Hossfly (May 26, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Mr Clean said:
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> > Fifty thousand young guys (many enslaved via the draft) died needlessly  in that fucking useless fiasco. It made me ashamed to be an American.
> ...



LBJ and his goons were a disaster and I know hundreds of guys who would have liked to blast Fonda's brains out, including me. She was a traitor who caused POWs to be tortured and beaten to death.


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## rightwinger (May 26, 2021)

Mr Clean said:


> Why were we even there?
> 
> Was it that domino theory nonsense?



History proved there was no Domino Theory
All the evils we predicted if Vietnam turned Communist never happened.
We killed millions needlessly because we couldn’t mind our own business


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## rightwinger (May 26, 2021)

andaronjim said:


> After WWII, there were calls from around the world that imperialism should be put to rest and countries should all have their own representation.  Viet Nam, with Ho Chi Min had begged the UN and United States to have his country be free of the French imperialism rule.  But the French who were devastated by the war, didnt want to relinquish their rule of the gooks of Viet Nam, and the UN and Truman agreed with France.  So Ho Chi, went to war with the French, and we all know how that ended....
> 
> Thank the French and Democrats for always getting US fucked....


We had a choice between a free Vietnam or a return to French Colonialism
We chose the French

Cost millions of lives


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## Mr Natural (May 26, 2021)

Easily one  of the most disgusting eras of our history.


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## rightwinger (May 26, 2021)

White 6 said:


> Those troops mostly did not choose to go, but they went and in the field deserved every bit of the support of the American people.



Those who resisted the war were supporting our troops
Those who claimed “we can win this thing if we only had 100,000 more troops” were the traitors


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## Mac-7 (May 26, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> History proved there was no Domino Theory


History did no such thing though lib revisionists historians are still trying

We fought the communist bloc to a standstill in Asia and no vital countries fell under Marxist domination by force of arms after vietnam


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## Mr Natural (May 26, 2021)

Mac-7 said:


> rightwinger said:
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More bullshit!


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## White 6 (May 26, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> White 6 said:
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> > Those troops mostly did not choose to go, but they went and in the field deserved every bit of the support of the American people.
> ...


I can agree for those that stayed here, not those that took an active part against our troops over there.  There is a difference, you are not understanding.


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## Darkwind (May 26, 2021)

Mr Clean said:


> Fifty thousand young guys (many enslaved via the draft) died needlessly  in that fucking useless fiasco. It made me ashamed to be an American.
> 
> I escaped it by joining the Navy.
> 
> And Jane Fonda remains a hero of mine for doing what she did.


I'm ashamed you're an American too.


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## rightwinger (May 26, 2021)

Mac-7 said:


> rightwinger said:
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The Communists won in Vietnam
There were no Dominos


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## Mr Natural (May 26, 2021)

Darkwind said:


> Mr Clean said:
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> > Fifty thousand young guys (many enslaved via the draft) died needlessly  in that fucking useless fiasco. It made me ashamed to be an American.
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Go fuck your self asshole!


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## rightwinger (May 26, 2021)

White 6 said:


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Fonda was wrong to visit Vietnam
Overall, she was right about the war

More people died for listening to Bob Hope than listening to Jane Fonda


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## Mac-7 (May 26, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> The Communists won in Vietnam
> There were no Dominos


the communist bloc was worn out and financially broke by the Vietnam War

They didn't want to fight another one any any time soon


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## rightwinger (May 26, 2021)

Mac-7 said:


> rightwinger said:
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We took a Civil War in Vietnam and turned it into a Cold War proxy. 
Needlessly cost millions of lives


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## Cellblock2429 (May 26, 2021)

longly said:


> *In science, one verifies one's observations by submitting them to peer review. I remember something very clearly from the Vietnam War, but liberal friends and acquaintances tell me it never happened. I  have done internet research, but I can't find anything in regards to this issue. Now I know she made those comments before the internet, but they should be in the history of the time.  So here is the question for all  the boomer generation that may be on this site: I remember Jane Fonda praising the Khmer Rouge for their victory in  Cambodia; do you remember it?   Do you have a source that would back up my memories?*


/——/ Yes, I remember it. Traitor Jane.


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## rightwinger (May 26, 2021)

Mac-7 said:


> rightwinger said:
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neither did we


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## Mikeoxenormous (May 26, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Mr Clean said:
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> We killed millions needlessly because we couldn’t mind our own business


 Kennedy got boots on the ground, and LBJ went full bore with his war machine.  Yep Progressive Demoncraps sure do like to kill lots of people, needlessly...


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## rightwinger (May 26, 2021)

andaronjim said:


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You may have a point if you can show me any prominent Republicans who opposed the war


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## whitehall (May 26, 2021)

Fonda's trip to Hanoi where she sat on a V.C. anti-aircraft weapon pretending to shoot down Americans while American fliers were held under barbaric conditions nearby should rank high enough on the treason scale for most people who are still interested. Not to be forgotten is old Canadian born Donald Southerland who traveled with her.


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## Pellinore (May 26, 2021)

longly said:


> *In science, one verifies one's observations by submitting them to peer review. I remember something very clearly from the Vietnam War, but liberal friends and acquaintances tell me it never happened. I  have done internet research, but I can't find anything in regards to this issue. Now I know she made those comments before the internet, but they should be in the history of the time.  So here is the question for all  the boomer generation that may be on this site: I remember Jane Fonda praising the Khmer Rouge for their victory in  Cambodia; do you remember it?   Do you have a source that would back up my memories?*


She visited Vietnam in 1972, and part of her trip took her on a tour of Hanoi (then in North Vietnam), during which she accused the US of deliberately bombing some dikes.  As far as I know, she offered no proof.  While there, she was photographed all happy and smilin', sitting on the same type of AA gun the NVA used to shoot down our pilots.  Needless to say, she got pilloried for this in the press.  

As far as I know, she never had any connection or made any statements about the Khmer Rouge.  It's impossible to prove that someone didn't do something, of course, but until a transcript or a recording surfaces, my professional assessment as a historian says that this is most likely a case of people who already don't like her, exaggerating her evilness.


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## Pellinore (May 26, 2021)

Mr Clean said:


> Fifty thousand young guys (many enslaved via the draft) died needlessly  in that fucking useless fiasco. It made me ashamed to be an American.
> 
> I escaped it by joining the Navy.
> 
> And Jane Fonda remains a hero of mine for doing what she did.


Thank you for your service.


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## Mikeoxenormous (May 26, 2021)

rightwinger said:


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Who got US involved in the Gulf War?


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## Pellinore (May 26, 2021)

Mr Clean said:


> Why were we even there?
> 
> Was it that domino theory nonsense?


That was a big part, yes.  

It was a French colony that successfully rebelled in the 1950s.  The northern half started leaning Communist, so fear of the dominos falling led us to install a pro-Western puppet in the South, who turned out to be a persecution-happy psycho dictator that everybody hated.  The CIA backed a military coup that had that guy killed, then Kennedy was shot, then between the threat of Communism and the sparks from the Gulf of Tonkin incident in 1964, we were off an running.   

It was pretty stupid, all in all.


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## rightwinger (May 26, 2021)

Pellinore said:


> Mr Clean said:
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In WWII the French left Vietnam to fight the Japanese on their own. After the war, Ho Chi Minh campaigned rightfully for independence. The US sold them out and supported French Colonialism 
We drove them into the hands of the Communists.


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## MaryL (May 26, 2021)

I remember little  about Vietnam accept my brother and two of our neighbors where drafted or enlisted. My brother came back, the others are still in Vietnam. Vague memory of Fonda being shown chumming it up with the enemy. Who was worse, LBJ & McNamara or the  entitled liberal contrarians thumbing their  rich entitled noses at everything? Sorry can't answer your question. Don't remember, not sure if it matters anymore.


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## 9thIDdoc (May 26, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Mr Clean said:
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Untrue to the max. The North Vietnamese and their USSR and Chi Com allies made killing innocent civilians policy and killed millions. North Vietnam occupied portions of Laos and Cambodia as well as South Vietnam so the domino was in effect and progressing at the time. Jane Fonda gave material and propaganda aid to the enemy during time of war and was a blatant traitor and should have been executed for her crimes against our Nation.


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## rightwinger (May 26, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> Jane Fonda gave material and propaganda aid to the enemy during time of war and was a blatant traitor and should have been executed for her crimes against our Nation.



The blatant traitors were those who lied to the public about the purpose of the war and our prospects of winning.  The give us 100,000 more boys and we will wrap it up by Christmas. 
They killed millions, Fonda killed nobody and saved lives by turning the public against the war.


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## 9thIDdoc (May 26, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> andaronjim said:
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> > After WWII, there were calls from around the world that imperialism should be put to rest and countries should all have their own representation.  Viet Nam, with Ho Chi Min had begged the UN and United States to have his country be free of the French imperialism rule.  But the French who were devastated by the war, didnt want to relinquish their rule of the gooks of Viet Nam, and the UN and Truman agreed with France.  So Ho Chi, went to war with the French, and we all know how that ended....
> ...


Free? You must be friggin kidding! Under oppressive Communist colonialism rather than as a republic? Those that weren't slaughtered out of hand or sent to "re-education" camps? You must be a mental health poster boy.


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## Dadoalex (May 26, 2021)

White 6 said:


> longly said:
> 
> 
> > *In science, one verifies one's observations by submitting them to peer review. I remember something very clearly from the Vietnam War, but liberal friends and acquaintances tell me it never happened. I  have done internet research, but I can't find anything in regards to this issue. Now I know she made those comments before the internet, but they should be in the history of the time.  So here is the question for all  the boomer generation that may be on this site: I remember Jane Fonda praising the Khmer Rouge for their victory in  Cambodia; do you remember it?   Do you have a source that would back up my memories?*
> ...


Not condemning is not the same as "praising"


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## rightwinger (May 26, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


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Lets see
The choice that killing millions of Vietnamese to keep them from becoming Communist? 

How can that make sense?


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## 9thIDdoc (May 26, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
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> ...


Her outright lies and propaganda unjustly turned many alleged Americans against American soldiers and one Vietnam veteran still commits suicide every 22 minutes. Thanks Jane you scum sucking bitch!


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## rightwinger (May 26, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


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You can‘t be serious
Vietnam Veterans kill themselves because of Jane Fonda?

They kill themselves because American leaders sold them out and put them in a conflict they could not win.  They killed a lot of people but could not win.


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## 9thIDdoc (May 26, 2021)

rightwinger said:


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How does allowing the Communists to massacre them make them more "free"?


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## 9thIDdoc (May 26, 2021)

rightwinger said:


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Of course American leaders sold them out right along with the South Vietnamese. The only reason the war was so protracted and is sometimes seen as a loss is because American leaders refused to let us win it.


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## rightwinger (May 26, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


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Guess what?
50 years of hindsight showed the Communists did not massacre them. Vietnam stabilized after 35 years of nonstop war and now has a robust economy.  They are better off now than they were under the French or Diem and his corrupt regime


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## rightwinger (May 26, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


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No you were not going to “win it”
You would have been tied up in Vietnam for decades suffering extended guerilla  warfare


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## 9thIDdoc (May 26, 2021)

rightwinger said:


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Simply untrue the North Vietnamese freely engaged in massacre even before their slave Army successfully invaded.  Massacre at Huế - Wikipedia
The people are better off under rich Communists than poor Communists?


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## whitehall (May 26, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
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Harry Truman and "Dugout" Doug MacArthur lied to everyone including the poor bastards who walked into a trap in Korea. The media ignored MacArthur's quirks and Truman's timid behavior and called Korea the "forgotten war". The media gave Harry and his age related mentally impaired appointed general a tickertape parade when we lost as many men in three years of Korea as the ten or so in Vietnam.  Vietnam was the CIA's project and, thanks to LBJ, the generals sat on the sidelines while CIA clerks fresh out of college ran the show. Democrats who initially supported LBJ's adventure suddenly defunded the whole operation and left Nixon holding the bag. The media managed to blame Nixon for the unfortunate result.


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## rightwinger (May 26, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


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The “massacre” was 35 years of endless wars killing millions of Vietnamese on both sides. We perpetuated it.

After 1975, Vietnam stabilized and now has a robust economy.


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## Mac-7 (May 26, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> We took a Civil War in Vietnam and turned it into a Cold War proxy.


Ot was a very important civil war that helped determine the outcome of the Cold War


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## 9thIDdoc (May 26, 2021)

rightwinger said:


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For years we had the troops and resources in place to invade and occupy North Vietnam and the result would have been a unified Vietnam Under the Republic of Vietnam. War over. We won. End of story.


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## Mac-7 (May 26, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> neither did we


I agree

But we not the aggressors in the Cold War


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## rightwinger (May 26, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


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You missed the lesson from Korea didn’t you?

Occupying the North would have brought China into the conflict


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## Dayton3 (May 26, 2021)

Mr Clean said:


> Fifty thousand young guys (many enslaved via the draft) died needlessly  in that fucking useless fiasco. It made me ashamed to be an American.
> 
> I escaped it by joining the Navy.
> 
> And Jane Fonda remains a hero of mine for doing what she did.


You are wrong on so many points.


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## 9thIDdoc (May 27, 2021)

rightwinger said:


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In Korea China entered the conflict and got it's ass kicked. You think they forgot that lesson?


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## Likkmee (May 27, 2021)

Cassius Clay


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## RetiredGySgt (May 27, 2021)

rightwinger said:


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Actually we had won it till democrats sold out the South Vietnam Government in 74 and 75.


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## Colin norris (May 27, 2021)

Ringel05 said:


> longly said:
> 
> 
> > *In science, one verifies one's observations by submitting them to peer review. I remember something very clearly from the Vietnam War  ,but liberal friends and acquaintances tell me it never happened. I  have done internet research, but I can't find anything in regards to this issue. Now I know she made those comments before the internet, but they should in the history of the time.  So here is the question for all the boomer generation that may be on this site. I remember Jane Fonda praising the Khmer Rouge for their victory in  Cambodia; do you remember it?   Do you have a source that would back up my memories?*
> ...



She at no time praised the KR. It might be you exaggerated it all because she was a leftie. That tends to send you repigs ballistic.


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## rightwinger (May 27, 2021)

RetiredGySgt said:


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I know...the old, Give us a hundred thousand more boys and we will wrap this up by Christmas

Victory is just around the corner


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## rightwinger (May 27, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


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China chased the mighty Douglas MacArthur back below the 38 th parallel
MacArthur had the same delusions of quickly mopping up N Korea by Christmas.


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## RetiredGySgt (May 27, 2021)

rightwinger said:


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Wrong the South Vietnamesee proved in 72 they could win against the North with out US combat troops. in 75 the democrats had cut their supplies off and reneged on the deal for artillery and air support, the North was just probing the line in force and when they realized the state of the souths units and no US air support they sent 25 divisions against the 12 of South Vietnam.


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## rightwinger (May 27, 2021)

RetiredGySgt said:


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Wrong

The North had kept the fight up for 25 years. They were not about to quit. 
They did not quit while the mighty US forces were there, why would they quit after they left?


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## Ringel05 (May 27, 2021)

Colin norris said:


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Did you accidentally include my post or did you mean to do it out of blind, partisan stupidity?   
All I did was link the reports on the subject, it was up to him to find what he wanted if he could.


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## RetiredGySgt (May 27, 2021)

rightwinger said:


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Look moron the south successfully stopped the North Vietnamese in a major campaign in72 and would have done the same in 75


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## rightwinger (May 27, 2021)

RetiredGySgt said:


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You said it yourself 
The North had 25 Divisions, the South had 12. 
The South was in a Defensive perimeter around Saigon, the North had the rest. 
Their days were numbered.

The US didnt care as long as we got our asses out of there
The public didn’t care either


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## RetiredGySgt (May 27, 2021)

rightwinger said:


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wrong with our airpower and artillery we coud stop the north with the south providing the armor ad Infantry.


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## rightwinger (May 27, 2021)

RetiredGySgt said:


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We had our AirPower, artillery AND hundreds of thousands of troops on the ground for seven years and it didn’t stop them.  

We have 60,000 dead to prove it


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## longly (May 27, 2021)

I believe in science, so I have to admit that I have not seen anything that backs up my memories so far. I also acknowledge that memories can be faulty; it could be that some other female liberal of the time made those comments, and I attributed them to Fonda. So I can not claim them as facts; my memories will have to remain hypnosis. But one thing is for sure Fonda was a traitor. That is a fact. She gave aid and comfort to the enemy in times of war, and it was well documented. Liberals accused trump of treason with no objective evidence but ignored Jane Fonda’s treason. If Fonda wasn’t a traitor, there is no such thing as treason.


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## Flash (May 27, 2021)

RetiredGySgt said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > 9thIDdoc said:
> ...




It is despicable that the only knowledge of the Vietnam War that most the Moon Bats have is what they got from Hollywood and the Libtard press.

We achieved our mission to secure South Vietnam from Communism with the Paris Peace Accord.  Due to Nixon taking the war to the North instead of fighting it in the South on the Communists terms.

The Commies agreed to acknowledge a non Commie South, which is what we wanted all along.  It was a victory.

However, the filthy ass Democrats, aided by a few weak Republicans, couldn't stand the victory so they gave it away with the Case Church budget amendment that defunded the South.  That was a green light for the Commies to invade and they did.

The Communists achieved a victory through the Democrats that they could achieve in the war. 

Democrats are the scum of America that always do the wrong thing.


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## rightwinger (May 27, 2021)

Flash said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


Stop blamingDemocrats
A Republican was President

We lost
America had enough


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## longly (May 27, 2021)

Flash said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



I am a Democrat, but unlike many in my party, I hate all forms of tyranny.


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## longly (May 27, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Flash said:
> 
> 
> > RetiredGySgt said:
> ...



Based on what I have seen, especially recently, Republican presidents have much less power than Democrats presidents. It was the liberals in Congress that cut off aid to South Vietnam and gave the communist a victory.


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## rightwinger (May 27, 2021)

longly said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Flash said:
> ...


America was fed up about the war
Republicans were calling the shots for 7 years. Stop blaming the Dems

We lost
We deserved what we got 
We never should have been there in the first place


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## Flash (May 27, 2021)

longly said:


> Flash said:
> 
> 
> > RetiredGySgt said:
> ...


Unfortunately very few in the Democrat Party would have the same set of values as yourself.


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## Mr Natural (May 27, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> I know...the old, Give us a hundred thousand more boys and we will wrap this up by Christmas
> 
> Victory is just around the corner


Nixon and Kissinger had a secret plan.


----------



## Circe (May 27, 2021)

Mr Clean said:


> Fifty thousand young guys (many enslaved via the draft) died needlessly  in that fucking useless fiasco. It made me ashamed to be an American.
> 
> I escaped it by joining the Navy.
> 
> And Jane Fonda remains a hero of mine for doing what she did.


Because a lot of people felt that way, the government could not prosecute her for treason. What Fonda did and said WAS treason, of course (I worked it out at the time, with difficulty and realized if that wasn't treason, nothing was) but they were losing the college-educated young people, and Jane Fonda was the popular, beautiful daughter of Hollywood legend Henry Fonda. So it wasn't going to happen. 

So now they can't try anyone for treason, even flamboyant cases like that Bradley Manning character who gave all the U.S. military data to Wikileaks.


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## rightwinger (May 27, 2021)

Mr Clean said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > I know...the old, Give us a hundred thousand more boys and we will wrap this up by Christmas
> ...


Nixon scuttled LBJs attempt at peace before the 68 election


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## Circe (May 27, 2021)

Pellinore said:


> longly said:
> 
> 
> > far as I know, she never had any connection or made any statements about the Khmer Rouge.  It's impossible to prove that someone didn't do something, of course, but until a transcript or a recording surfaces, my professional assessment as a historian says that this is most likely a case of people who already don't like her, exaggerating her evilness.


I can't remember her saying anything about the Khmer Rouge, either.


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## rightwinger (May 27, 2021)

Circe said:


> Mr Clean said:
> 
> 
> > Fifty thousand young guys (many enslaved via the draft) died needlessly  in that fucking useless fiasco. It made me ashamed to be an American.
> ...



Fonda was in her 20s and not a major star. She had little influence with mainstream America

It was John Wayne and Bob Hope who were the stars and influenced America 
They sided with the War Hawks who lied and killed millions needlessly.


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## Colin norris (May 27, 2021)

RetiredGySgt said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
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> > 9thIDdoc said:
> ...



America left Vietnam completely defeated. Their folly to eradicate communism in another country was a waste of 55000 lives and hundreds of thousands of injuries. The military left like a kicked dog.  
The democrats had absolutely nothing to do with that. That's a typical Republican view wanting to blame democrats for everything.  How pathetic.


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## rightwinger (May 27, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


LBJ may have pulled the trigger
But no major Republican ever opposed the Vietnam war from 1965 to 1975

Democrats lost their support by 1968


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## RetiredGySgt (May 28, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
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> > rightwinger said:
> ...


Actually it did stop them and it helped wipe out the viet cong, Or perhaps you can list for us the times the NV took territory while the US was there?


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## 9thIDdoc (May 28, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
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Great. Another history revisionist and Communist admirer.
We withdrew from Vietnam in good order when the government ordered us to do so and until that time we successfully carried out our mission of defending South Vietnam. We lost nothing.
It was the US Congress (mostly democrats if I remember correctly) that failed in our commitment to an ally by denying furthers funds for resupply and possible air cover. It was the Congress that betrayed South Vietnam and our fallen soldiers.
We were winning when I left.


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## rightwinger (May 28, 2021)

RetiredGySgt said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
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That is what was wrong about the US strategy in Vietnam
It was never about territory and body counts. It was about the hearts and minds of the people. 
Western occupiers were never welcome. As long as the French or US was there, you were going to face resistance.


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## rightwinger (May 28, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> It was the US Congress (mostly democrats if I remember correctly) that failed in our commitment to an ally by denying furthers funds for resupply and possible air cover.



It was the US Congress that failed you in continually buying into the militarist propaganda and using US Soldiers as fodder to cover for their failures in leadership.


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## RetiredGySgt (May 28, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
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After 72 South Vietnam was stable.


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## rightwinger (May 28, 2021)

RetiredGySgt said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > RetiredGySgt said:
> ...


How could they be “stable” with so many N Vietnamese troops occupying Southern territory?

They were stable to allow US troops to withdraw


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## RetiredGySgt (May 28, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


the south had only a little of North Vietnam occupying territory, the Viet Cong were destroyed and the military was confident in it's abilities.


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## rightwinger (May 28, 2021)

RetiredGySgt said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > RetiredGySgt said:
> ...


You can’t destroy guerilla forces.  They just disappear into the brush looking for an opportunity.  The Viet Cong were not going away....especially with the US forces out of the way.

Same goes for the Taliban


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## RetiredGySgt (May 28, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
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> > rightwinger said:
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look you moron the Viet Cong destroyed themselves in the TET offensive. If you want to be taken seriously learn a few real facts.


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## there4eyeM (May 28, 2021)

White 6 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Jane Fonda was right about her objection to the war
> ...


When did Congress declare that war?


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## Likkmee (May 28, 2021)

Cassius Clay had it right


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## gipper (May 28, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> White 6 said:
> 
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> > rightwinger said:
> ...


Blame your hero LBJ.


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## there4eyeM (May 28, 2021)

By preventing the agreed upon elections, the U.S. set the stage for protracted violence. Both sides misunderstood and underestimated the other. The Communists were insane to have carried out the war as they did, unnecessarily sacrificing so many people when by negotiating they would have gotten what they wanted, as they eventually did, a decade and a million deaths too late. This was matched in stupidity, if not in numbers, by the American conduct of the conflict.


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## rightwinger (May 28, 2021)

RetiredGySgt said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > RetiredGySgt said:
> ...



Took a licking but never disappeared
If they were so destroyed and there was no threat from the North......Why did S Vietnam fall like a cheap folding table?

They were provided the best equipment, supplies and training
But they were an inept force


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## rightwinger (May 28, 2021)

gipper said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > White 6 said:
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Yea...let’s look at LBJ

Vietnam defined his legacy. But LBJ wanted no part of Vietnam. He couldn’t care less. But he didn’t want Vietnam to fall to the Communists on his watch. He was offered a quick fix....give us a hundred thousand troops and we will wrap this up by Christmas.  Then the next Christmas and the next

Any other US President would have done the same. JFK, Nixon, Goldwater......they all would have taken the bait


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## RetiredGySgt (May 28, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
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Again you fucking Moron SV fell to an external Invasion not to any insurgency. And even with out supplies spare parts or air support the South fought for a month against that Invasion, we are done until or unless you learn some real facts not your make believe bullshit.


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## White 6 (May 28, 2021)

there4eyeM said:


> White 6 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


They never did.  I don't think we did in Korea either.  We haven't in Iraq or Afghanistan or Syria, but relied on what was supposed to be short term authorization that developed a life of it's own through mission creep.  
Only time I can remember us denying a president the authorization to use and pay for using the force was with the Contra/Sandinista thing down in Nicaragua. I am familiar with that one, as the CIA invited me to resign my commission (for deniability) and go there, because I was known to be good at what I did and would get it back after it was over.  Pretty open ended from the word go.  Had friends that went. Plane was shot down.  We denied we had them or the plane there for weeks as the survivors exfiltrated the country.  I had a strict policy favoring my wife and kids.  I would not take chances on disappearing or dying anonymously across some line where we weren't supposed to be, not operating under UCMJ or even the limited protection of rules of war and turned it down 2 weeks before the trip.


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## White 6 (May 28, 2021)

gipper said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > White 6 said:
> ...


Yep.  I have heard Kennedy wanted out.  Have heard it speculated, that is part of why he was assassinated.  In the end, Johnson knew it was a foolish waste of lives and money, and the reason he did not run again for president.
Still, that does not change the fact, Hanoi Jane was and is a traitor and for going there to publicly support our enemy while we had troops dying in the field there, supposedly in the name of freedom and democracy.


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## gipper (May 28, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


Wrong. JFK made it clear after the election, we were bugging out. LBJ like nearly all our recent presidents feared the MIC.  So he did what they told him. Just like your other favorite potus, Ears.


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## rightwinger (May 28, 2021)

RetiredGySgt said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
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> > RetiredGySgt said:
> ...


One month after we propped them up for ten years
The South was not going to survive unless we continued to feed the beast and do their fighting


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## White 6 (May 28, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


Kennedy wanted to pull out, ordering 1,000 of the 16,000 (at that time) pulled out and had plans to pull most of the rest, leaving small number of advisors if he won the 1964 election.  Some say that is why he was shot.


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## rightwinger (May 28, 2021)

gipper said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > gipper said:
> ...



JFK never made it to the election
The Vietnam that JFK faced in 61-63 was nothing like what LBJ faced in 63 and beyond 

Look at it this way. JFK had the same Sec Defenses and Generals that LBJ had.  He would have made the same mistakes and fallen into the same trap


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## RetiredGySgt (May 28, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


Not interested in uninformed moronic drivel so either learn facts or go away.


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## rightwinger (May 28, 2021)

White 6 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > gipper said:
> ...



Any politician would have made the same mistakes that LBJ made regardless of party.  JFK did not want to appear soft on Communism, that is what Republicans accused him of. 
He also would not have wanted Vietnam to turn Communist on his watch. 
He would have taken the bait and sent in more troops, then more and then more


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## gipper (May 28, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


You finally got something right. The South never had the will to fight and after a decade of US murdering and destroying the South, they were done.

We never should have been there. Ike fucked up by supporting the imperialist French and not Ho Chi Minh. However, US foreign policy has always supported western imperialism and does so today.

The domino theory was bogus bull shit made up by the warmongers in the Pentagon. They too continue their warmongering today with their constant propaganda for more war.


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## gipper (May 28, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


Fool. You claimed JFK would have continued the war. You are wrong. Now you idiotically claim he didn’t make it to the election. WTF?


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## rightwinger (May 28, 2021)

gipper said:


> The domino theory was bogus bull shit made up by the warmongers in the Pentagon. They too continue their warmongering today with their constant propaganda for more war.



All the gloom and doom they predicted if Vietnam fell to the Communists never happened. 
Ultimately, Vietnam prospered after 35 years of war and does better now than they did under Colonial Imperialism and corrupt Democracies


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## rightwinger (May 28, 2021)

gipper said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > gipper said:
> ...


I think LBJ ended up with JFKs second term.  JFK would have followed the same advice LBJ did (it came from the same people). JFK would have been despised just as much as LBJ. 

JFK was assassinated before the 64 election. It wasnt until Diem was assassinated in Nov 63 (same month as JFK) that the situation in Vietnam changed dramatically. 
JFKs Vietnam was not the same as what LBJ faced.  LBJ faced the imminent demise of the south. He stepped in to stop it


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## White 6 (May 28, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> White 6 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


Cannot just speculate history with any assurity.  We do not know if he would have had the profile in courage necessary to pull most out, against the guaranteed scorn of the Republicans and a bunch of Democrats also.
If reducing to a couple of thousand advisor and supplying funding, he could have adopted the very popular war model of modern countries, by fighting a proxy war, much more conservative and safer for our own troops, more able to control financial outlay, like a closet industry venture supporting the military industrial complex.  We will never know, if he would have proved as smart as modern day countries, with the exception of us.  We still put bodies on the line, to justify the commitment to industry dollars, throwing more bodies and dollars in front of the problem every time the enemy takes some out, and making the bodies front page news to rally enthusiasm and continued support to bad policy.


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## gipper (May 28, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


You’re just rambling with bull shit. JFK was hated and despised by the MIC. He was at odds with them and wouldn’t listen to them. He made it clear we were leaving after the election.

The first thing your beloved Butcher of Vietnam did upon gaining the presidency was overturn JFK’s EO, to bug out.  then told his buddies in the MIC, now you can have your war.


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## rightwinger (May 28, 2021)

White 6 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > White 6 said:
> ...


After JFK was assassinated he reached martyred status. Of course JFK would have KNOWN better than escalate Vietnam

But he would have the same facts as LBJ, same advisors.  There were not many in EITHER party advocating we stay out of the conflict. I don’t see why JFK would have been one of them


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## rightwinger (May 28, 2021)

gipper said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > gipper said:
> ...



The Vietnam JFK faced in 1963 was not the same as the one LBJ faced in 1965.


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## Mr Natural (May 28, 2021)

50,000 guys have their lives cut short so the likes of St Trumpy can save a few bucks on labor costs by having His MAGA hats made in Viet Nam.

Disgusting!


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## gipper (May 28, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


That’s right. In 1965 it made even more sense to get out.


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## NoNukes (May 28, 2021)

Mr Clean said:


> Fifty thousand young guys (many enslaved via the draft) died needlessly  in that fucking useless fiasco. It made me ashamed to be an American.
> 
> I escaped it by joining the Navy.
> 
> And Jane Fonda remains a hero of mine for doing what she did.


My brother escaped it by joining the Navy too. I had a high lottery number, and was a leader in the anti war movement.


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## rightwinger (May 28, 2021)

gipper said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > gipper said:
> ...



Why would you want to get out?
The North was in danger of toppling the Southern regime and turning it Communist.
We could save them by just sending 50,000 troops and we would wrap it up by Christmas 1965 with minimal casualties
If you do nothing, you will be blamed


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## Mr Natural (May 28, 2021)

And who really gives a shit if they went commie?

They ended up going commie anyway and nothing changed for us except for the fact that Mr Businessman can now save a few bucks on cheap labor.


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## White 6 (May 28, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


Basically, from a tactical and strategic point, it was.  He just did not have LBJ's experience with watching the body bags fill with American troops on TV, and did not want it, without an assured clean outcome, which he did not have faith in achieving.  LBJ became sickened with his own support of the military industrial complex and their grandiose plans, dreams and theories that did not pan out.  It's why he quit, if you remember watching the speech, that night, when he said he would not run for a re-election, he would have almost undoubtedly won.  The war, broke him.


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## White 6 (May 28, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


Well, that's what they said alright.  Just not how it worked out.


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## Mr Natural (May 28, 2021)

As a Boomer, I think the greatest achievement my generation accomplished was getting rid of the draft which was nothing more than modern day slavery.


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## rightwinger (May 28, 2021)

White 6 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > gipper said:
> ...


Exactly
That is what LBJ bought into
Once he was in, he couldn’t get out


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## rightwinger (May 28, 2021)

White 6 said:


> if you remember watching the speech, that night, when he said he would not run for a re-election, he would have almost undoubtedly won.



I think LBJ had about 35 percent approval and had just lost the NH primary.  The handwriting was on the wall


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## White 6 (May 28, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> White 6 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


Many of the ones we have had this century are too dumb to learn what has been tried and didn't work, still don't work and should be walked away from to cut losses, nor the political courage to stand up and say so, if they do know in private.


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## The Sage of Main Street (May 28, 2021)

White 6 said:


> longly said:
> 
> 
> > *In science, one verifies one's observations by submitting them to peer review. I remember something very clearly from the Vietnam War, but liberal friends and acquaintances tell me it never happened. I  have done internet research, but I can't find anything in regards to this issue. Now I know she made those comments before the internet, but they should be in the history of the time.  So here is the question for all  the boomer generation that may be on this site: I remember Jane Fonda praising the Khmer Rouge for their victory in  Cambodia; do you remember it?   Do you have a source that would back up my memories?*
> ...


*HeirHeads Head Whatever Is on the Air*

All you need to know about Janey is that she is rich girl.  Richkids don't belong in America; being unAmerican is what makes them anti-American.  They not only want to jealousyly destroy a society created entirely by those born in the White working class; their very presence here is what has blocked our traditional and time-tested American Way.


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## The Sage of Main Street (May 28, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Jane Fonda was right about her objection to the war
> Millions died unnecessarily
> 
> Blame Bob Hope


*Epitaph on the Vietnam War Memorial:  PROUD TO DIE TAKING A RICHKID'S PLACE*

The purpose of that war was too kill off or take the fight out of the bravest patriots born in the White working class.  Mission accomplished.


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## Mr Natural (May 28, 2021)

The Sage of Main Street said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Jane Fonda was right about her objection to the war
> ...



If only Captain Bone Spurs could  have been there leading the charge against the commies.  .  .


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## The Sage of Main Street (May 28, 2021)

Mr Clean said:


> Why were we even there?
> 
> Was it that domino theory nonsense?


*Capital Treason by the Sons of the Ruling Class and Its Flunkies Who Ran Away to College*

We who fought delayed Communism's momentum.  Because of our stand, it imploded not long after its Pyrrhic victory in a worthless jungle full of worthless people.  Your narratives are told by those who want to cover up their own cowardice and treason back then.  

Those who think it was useless have been taught an superficial and unrealistic version of history in general.  We are also told that the Crusades were a failure, but it set back the Islamic jihad 300 years.  By the time they got back on track in their thrill-killing rampage, the Christian world was strong enough to crush them.

BATTLE OF ZENTA (Serbia.  *September 11,* 1697)

Christians:  50,000 soldiers, 60 cannon
Muslims:  100,000 psychotic bloodthirsty religious fanatics, 200 cannon

Christian deaths:  429
Nazislamis sent to kiss Allah's butt:  30,000


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## The Sage of Main Street (May 28, 2021)

Mr Clean said:


> The Sage of Main Street said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


*Survival of the Fatherest Is the Way to National Extinction*

Trump had inside information that it was really class warfare. He went to school with the pro-war sons of powerful pro-war fathers.  He saw how those sissyboy hypocrites  all thought they were too precious to actually fight over there.  The guillotine-fodder snobbishly thought that it was the duty of the less fortunate Whites, whom they hated with a passion, to die taking their place. 

 Preppies owe real Americans 58,000 lives.  Their birth privileges became a matter of life and death and must be abolished forever.  If we have to do it on our own, so must they.


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## White 6 (May 28, 2021)

The Sage of Main Street said:


> White 6 said:
> 
> 
> > longly said:
> ...


I thought "Janey" was white, born in American, yet UN-American of mindset the whole time.  Yes, she was and is rich, but doesn't really matter, as is no excuse as an American Citizen to do what she did, where she did it, while what was going on was going on.  There is never and excuse for going against your country in a foreign country war zone.  If that's your thing, you should renounce citizenship and get the FK out, only coming back to visit or make your money.


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## rightwinger (May 28, 2021)

Mr Clean said:


> The Sage of Main Street said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


We would have won for sure


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## The Sage of Main Street (May 28, 2021)

gipper said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > RetiredGySgt said:
> ...


*The Boat People Were Chickenhawks.  No Vietnamese Should Have Been Allowed to Come to America.*

The Vietnamese are not Asian.  They are an inferior subspecies, the Asian version of Neanderthals.  Far back in history, they were driven into the jungle by evolved Asians because of their criminality.


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## gipper (May 28, 2021)

The Sage of Main Street said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


???


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## gipper (May 28, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


So?  Not our business. Look what Vietnam is today?  They aren’t our enemy. So what if they’re communist? Should mean nothing but the MIC turned them into an enemy. They need enemies to keep us at war. Wake up.


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## gipper (May 28, 2021)

Mr Clean said:


> As a Boomer, I think the greatest achievement my generation accomplished was getting rid of the draft which was nothing more than modern day slavery.


It can be bought back at any moment.


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## rightwinger (May 28, 2021)

gipper said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > gipper said:
> ...


Exactly

We killed millions of Vietnamese just so they wouldn‘t be Communist

We took “Better Dead than Red” literally


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## rightwinger (May 28, 2021)

The Sage of Main Street said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


You are a sick FUK
Please go somewhere else


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## 9thIDdoc (May 28, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


Wrong. We stopped them cold time after time and North Vietnam only still exists because idiotic US politicians decided to allow it to at everybodies expense.
"We"? You are no part of the "we" that fought in Vietnam. Never were and never could be. Stop trying to flatter yourself while slandering us.


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## rightwinger (May 28, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > RetiredGySgt said:
> ...


And where did stopping them cold for seven years get you?
They were not going anywhere. 
They did manage to inflict almost 60,000 deaths. Deaths that could not be justified to the American people.

Yes, I am part of “we”
We the People
As such, I get to object to the decisions of my Government


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## 9thIDdoc (May 28, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


If you were part of we the people you would understand that we the people *are *the government and that any government failure is also *your* failure no matter how much you whine and complain. No "we" that I'm a part of has any room for anti-American Communist shills or traitors.


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## gipper (May 29, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > 9thIDdoc said:
> ...


The people have almost no input on our government. We aren’t a democracy. We are a rapacious oligarchy run by a small unelected psychopathic elite. This is why our government mass murderers people all around the world. 

Stop believing the lies you were indoctrinated with back in second grade government school, about what our government is.


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## rightwinger (May 29, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > 9thIDdoc said:
> ...


Now you are getting it.

It was We the People who stepped in and stopped the abuse of Government power in Vietnam


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## longly (May 30, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


They do now have a booming economy, but they only did it by abandoning their so called socialist principles. After murdering millions of people, they threw it all away and adopted a free market economy demonstrating they are the materialistic imperialist pigs. If they had any sense of honor they would go back to their centralized command economy and go hungry.


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## rightwinger (May 31, 2021)

longly said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > 9thIDdoc said:
> ...


They didn’t murder millions of people, the Colonial French and Americans did.......all to save them from Communism 

They turned out just fine


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## 9thIDdoc (May 31, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> longly said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


That's a lie. They did indeed murder millions. Men. Women. Children. Infants. And quite often treated them to torture and rape before allowing them to die. The VC were terrorists on a scale to make the most blood-thirsty Arab drool. But they are your besties. Sez a lot about you.


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## rightwinger (May 31, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > longly said:
> ...


Show your math

Despite speculation that the victorious North Vietnamese would, in President Nixon's words, "massacre the civilians there [South Vietnam] by the millions," there is a widespread consensus that no mass executions took place.










						Vietnam War - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## rightwinger (May 31, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> Men. Women. Children. Infants. And quite often treated them to torture and rape before allowing them to die.



Look up Napalm


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## RetiredGySgt (May 31, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


fuck off you drooling retard, the Viet Cong murdered anyone that did not do as they told them to do. usually torturing them and raping and killing their wife and children. And after TET the Viet Cong were actually North Vietnamese regulars. After they invaded and conquered South Vietnam they rounded up all officers all police all Government and school employees and either murdered them out right or put them in concentration camps to "reeducate" them. It was so bad that hundreds of thousands tried to flee going into Cambodia trying to get to Thailand or putting to sea in rickety small craft.


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## 9thIDdoc (May 31, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


Tip of the iceberg: 
Massacre at Huế - Wikipedia​


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## rightwinger (May 31, 2021)

RetiredGySgt said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > 9thIDdoc said:
> ...



Read it and weep

Despite speculation that the victorious North Vietnamese would, in President Nixon's words, "massacre the civilians there [South Vietnam] by the millions," there is a widespread consensus that no mass executions took place.

However, in our attempt to keep Vietnam from turning Communist, millions of civilians were killed


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## rightwinger (May 31, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > 9thIDdoc said:
> ...



The estimated death toll was between 2,800 and 6,000 civilians and prisoners of war

Now, show me the millions that are being claimed


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## 9thIDdoc (May 31, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> > Men. Women. Children. Infants. And quite often treated them to torture and rape before allowing them to die.
> ...


You prefer to kill with kindness? Describe how that works.


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## RetiredGySgt (May 31, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


Ya they just killed thousands imprisoned thousands more and caused hundreds of thousands to flee in terror risking life and limb.


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## TheParser (May 31, 2021)

Being 84 years old, I am certainly not a boomer.

But since it appears other non-boomers have given their two bits in this thread, I shall join in.

Yes, Ms. Fonda had an absolute right to oppose the war.

But she was wrong to go to the area and make such dramatic statements.

It was very cruel to the boys who could not evade the draft and had  to fight the communists (and, I hear, sometimes fellow American troops. But I digress).

She has to live with her conscience.  That is her business, not mine.

People who feel that she did wrong should simply not support any commercial activity of hers (such as watching any TV show or movie she is in).

Some posters feel that she did right.  That's OK, too.


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## 9thIDdoc (May 31, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
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> > rightwinger said:
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The link addresses one single incident that was perpetrated over 26 days the scope of which can never be truly known. The remains  were still being discovered long after the atrocity. Do you think the nature of our enemy became all sweetness and light other than that one incident? The VC/NVA occupied that single city for 26 days. During Tet '68 cities and villages all across South Vietnam were attacked and many occupied in part or in whole for for varying lengths of time. Can you show proof that Hue was something more or less than the standard approved method of dealing with the South Vietnamese civilian population? They carried out that massacre over 26 days. North Vietnam has now occupied South Vietnam for 50 years. "Millions" sounds right to me but feel free to question the many South Vietnamese communities that were forced flee their homeland their opinion on the matter. 

_The *Huế massacre* (Vietnamese: Thảm sát tại Huế Tết Mậu Thân, or Thảm sát Tết Mậu Thân ở Huế, lit. translation: "Tết Offensive massacre in Huế") was the summary executions and mass murder perpetrated by the Viet Cong (VC) and People's Army of Vietnam (PAVN) during their capture, military occupation and later withdrawal from the city of Huế during the Tet Offensive, considered one of the longest and bloodiest battles of the Vietnam War.

The Battle of Huế began on 31 January 1968, and lasted a total of 26 days. During the months and years that followed, dozens of mass graves were discovered in and around Huế. Victims included women, men, children, and infants.[2] The estimated death toll was between 2,800 and 6,000 civilians and prisoners of war,[1][3] or 5–10% of the total population of Huế.[4] The Republic of Vietnam (South Vietnam) released a list of 4,062 victims identified as having been either murdered or abducted.[5][6] Victims were found bound, tortured, and sometimes buried alive. Many victims were also clubbed to death.[7][8][9]

A number of U.S. and South Vietnamese authorities as well as a number of journalists who investigated the events took the discoveries, along with other evidence, as proof that a large-scale atrocity had been carried out in and around Huế during its four-week occupation. The killings were perceived as part of a large-scale purge of a whole social stratum, including anyone friendly to American forces in the region. The massacre at Huế came under increasing press scrutiny later, when press reports alleged that South Vietnamese "revenge squads" had also been at work in the aftermath of the battle, searching out and executing citizens that had supported the communist occupation.[10][11] In 2017, Ben Kiernan described the massacre as "possibly the largest atrocity of the war."[12]
The Vietcong set up provisional authorities shortly after it had captured Huế in the early hours of 31 January 1968. They were charged with removing the existing government administration from power in the city and replacing it with a "revolutionary administration". Working from lists of "cruel tyrants and reactionary elements" previously developed by Vietcong intelligence officers, many people were to be rounded up following the initial hours of the attack. These included Army of the Republic of Vietnam (ARVN) soldiers, civil servants, political party members, local religious leaders, schoolteachers, American civilians, and other international people.[13] Cadres called out the names on their lists over loudspeakers, ordering them to report to a local school. Those who did not report voluntarily were hunted down.__[14]_


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## rightwinger (May 31, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
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> > 9thIDdoc said:
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Civilian men, women, children and infants incinerated just to keep them from being communist


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## rightwinger (May 31, 2021)

RetiredGySgt said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > RetiredGySgt said:
> ...


Doesn’t justify the Millions that were killed unnecessarily in a senseless war that was none of our business


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## RetiredGySgt (May 31, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
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fuck off commie lover.


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## Mikeoxenormous (May 31, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
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You and i finally agree that if John Kennedy didnt put boots on the ground to support France's imperialism of Viet Nam, Ho Chi Min would of worked with the US and not the Communists.









						The little-known story of Vietnamese communist leader Ho Chi Minh’s admiration for the US
					

The founding father of modern Vietnam is Ho Chi Minh. He led Vietnam's communist revolution against French colonial rule and then took on the United States. But it seems he long had an admiration for the US and repeatedly sought the country's help in the decades before the Vietnam War.




					www.pri.org


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## InstantOn (May 31, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Jane Fonda was right about her objection to the war
> Millions died unnecessarily
> 
> Blame Bob Hope


The one noble thing my now late ex-husband did was volunteer to stay on duty when Bob Hope came to entertain the troops in Vietnam. My ex had been drafted.


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## rightwinger (May 31, 2021)

RetiredGySgt said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > RetiredGySgt said:
> ...


Better to kill millions to keep them from being commie?

Turned out they were better off without us or the French


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## Mikeoxenormous (May 31, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
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Thank John Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson for all those deaths....


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## rightwinger (May 31, 2021)

andaronjim said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > RetiredGySgt said:
> ...


I blame Truman

He should have backed Vietnam independence after WWII.  Instead, he helped the French reestablish their colonial empire.


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## RetiredGySgt (May 31, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> andaronjim said:
> 
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> > rightwinger said:
> ...


I can agree with this, Ho Chi Mein only went communist to fund his war. But once we were in it we were in it to win it.


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## rightwinger (May 31, 2021)

RetiredGySgt said:


> I can agree with this, Ho Chi Mein only went communist to fund his war. But once we were in it we were in it to win it.



During WWII, France abandoned Vietnam and left them to the Japanese. Vietnam was left to fight the Japanese invaders by themselves.

After the war, Ho Chi Minh went to the western powers begging for independence claiming they had earned it. The western powers basically laughed and said......You Gooks are incapable of running your own country.

The US along with the rest of the western powers returned Vietnam to the Colonial French.

That decision led to 25 years of war and millions of deaths


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## The Sage of Main Street (Jun 1, 2021)

gipper said:


> The Sage of Main Street said:
> 
> 
> > gipper said:
> ...


*Empty Set*

(      )


----------



## The Sage of Main Street (Jun 1, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> The Sage of Main Street said:
> 
> 
> > gipper said:
> ...


*Whiteys Hating Whitey*

I hope America never goes where you are, slumming with savages. 

At the multicultie campfire, the marshmallows are white.


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## Desperado (Jun 1, 2021)

There was not one good reason for the US to be involved in Vietnam, It was a unforgivable that the politicians kept us there for so long. Every politician that kept supporting the war should be taken out and shot


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## gipper (Jun 1, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > I can agree with this, Ho Chi Mein only went communist to fund his war. But once we were in it we were in it to win it.
> ...


That decision by the US government to support imperialism in Vietnam is but one example, albeit the most murderous, of American foreign policy since shortly after the founding.

The US today is the foremost imperialist power on the planet. It is a warrior nation for the benefit of the ultra rich.


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## rightwinger (Jun 1, 2021)

Desperado said:


> It was a unforgivable that the politicians kept us there for so long. Every politician that kept supporting the war should be taken out and shot



Yet when it comes to placing the blame, conservatives blame Jane Fonda


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## Sunni Man (Jun 1, 2021)

The leadership of South Vietnam were Catholics that had been installed by the French who were predominately Catholics themselves.
President Kennedy our first Catholic president was a close friend of Archbishop Hannon who visited the White House many times.
Some people think, including me, that Pres. Kennedy was directed by the Vatican/Pope during his numerous meetings with the Archbishop, to help their fellow Catholics in South Vietnam.
Its never been proven that's why the U.S. got involved in Vietnam.
But it sounds reasonable to me. ...


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## Desperado (Jun 1, 2021)

Sunni Man said:


> The leadership of South Vietnam were Catholics that had been installed by the French who were predominately Catholics themselves.
> President Kennedy our first Catholic president was a close friend of Archbishop Hannon who visited the White House many times.
> Some people think, including me, that Pres. Kennedy was directed by the Vatican/Pope during his numerous meetings with the Archbishop, to help their fellow Catholics in South Vietnam.
> Its never been proven that's why the U.S. got involved in Vietnam.
> But it sounds reasonable to me. ...


Interesting never heard that before.


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## Desperado (Jun 1, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Desperado said:
> 
> 
> > It was a unforgivable that the politicians kept us there for so long. Every politician that kept supporting the war should be taken out and shot
> ...


She told the truth  about the war. but her PR man let her do it from the seat of a North Vietnamese  Anti-aircraft gun,  That destroyed her message.


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## Polishprince (Jun 1, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Mr Clean said:
> 
> 
> > Fifty thousand young guys (many enslaved via the draft) died needlessly  in that fucking useless fiasco. It made me ashamed to be an American.
> ...




So are you in favor of razing the Vietnam War Memorial in Washington DC down?

If America was wrong, why should the men who served be honored?

That's the same argument you libs have with the Civil War monuments- that because the rebels' policy was wrong, they need cancelled.


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## surada (Jun 1, 2021)

RetiredGySgt said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
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> > RetiredGySgt said:
> ...



How old are you?

Socialist Republic of Vietnam


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## Sunni Man (Jun 1, 2021)

Desperado said:


> *Interesting never heard that before.*


I'm sure the Catholic connection of why the U.S. became involved in Vietnam falls into the conspiracy theory category.
But it makes sense if you think about it. ...


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## surada (Jun 1, 2021)

Polishprince said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Mr Clean said:
> ...



Its in no way the fault of our soldiers.  Never is..


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## rightwinger (Jun 1, 2021)

Polishprince said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Mr Clean said:
> ...


I honor the dead, not those who sent them to their death unnecessarily

In the Civil War, I honor those who fought for our country, not those who fought against us


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## Polishprince (Jun 1, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Polishprince said:
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> > rightwinger said:
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So what's wrong with honoring Robert E. Lee or Jeff Davis?   Those men are deceased as well.


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## Mr Natural (Jun 1, 2021)

Polishprince said:


> So what's wrong with honoring Robert E. Lee or Jeff Davis? Those men are deceased as well.


Because they were traitors.


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## rightwinger (Jun 1, 2021)

Polishprince said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Polishprince said:
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Why not just put up a statue to Ho Chi Minh?


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## The Sage of Main Street (Jun 1, 2021)

andaronjim said:


> After WWII, there were calls from around the world that imperialism should be put to rest and countries should all have their own representation.  Viet Nam, with Ho Chi Min had begged the UN and United States to have his country be free of the French imperialism rule.  But the French who were devastated by the war, didnt want to relinquish their rule of the gooks of Viet Nam, and the UN and Truman agreed with France.  So Ho Chi, went to war with the French, and we all know how that ended....
> 
> Thank the French and Democrats for always getting US fucked....


*Third World Entertainment*

The Vietnamese just love to kill White people.


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## miketx (Jun 1, 2021)

Mr Clean said:


> Fifty thousand young guys (many enslaved via the draft) died needlessly  in that fucking useless fiasco. It made me ashamed to be an American.
> 
> I escaped it by joining the Navy.
> 
> And Jane Fonda remains a hero of mine for doing what she did.


Since you are a traitor and a coward, I have no doubt you feel that way.


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## Sunni Man (Jun 1, 2021)

The way history is taught by leftist liberals in America today.
I have no doubt that within a few decades.
Vietnam veterans statues and memorials will be torn down, and the soldiers who fought in the war will be vilified as war criminals in schools and universities. ...


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## Desperado (Jun 1, 2021)

surada said:


> Polishprince said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


Our Soldiers were not the ones calling the shots


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## surada (Jun 1, 2021)

Desperado said:


> surada said:
> 
> 
> > Polishprince said:
> ...



Exactly.. Our troops sign on to follow orders.. They are not to blame for stupid foreign policy or liars or those creeps who would save ENRON.


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## surada (Jun 1, 2021)

Sunni Man said:


> The way history is taught by leftist liberals in America today.
> I have no doubt that within a few decades.
> Vietnam veterans statues and memorials will be torn down, and the soldiers who fought in the war will be vilified as war criminals in schools and universities. ...



NO they won't. You are absolutely wrong and confused.


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## surada (Jun 1, 2021)

miketx said:


> Mr Clean said:
> 
> 
> > Fifty thousand young guys (many enslaved via the draft) died needlessly  in that fucking useless fiasco. It made me ashamed to be an American.
> ...



How old are you?  Socialist Republic of Vietnam..


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## RetiredGySgt (Jun 1, 2021)

surada said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


63 why?
 My father fought in Vietnam and my oldest brother missed it by months.


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 1, 2021)

gipper said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > RetiredGySgt said:
> ...


We were in Vietnam to counter North Vietnam imperialism. Sounds like you are OK with imperialism as long as the imperialists are communist.


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## Dogmaphobe (Jun 1, 2021)

I remember it.  I also remember liberals denouncing her because she crossed a line when she embraced them rather than just opposing the needless death. In fact, at the time this caused a rift in the S.D.S. between the liberals and the leftists.

Today, no such thing would happen because there are no liberals left, only leftists. A quick perusal of this forum will verify that.


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 1, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Desperado said:
> 
> 
> > It was a unforgivable that the politicians kept us there for so long. Every politician that kept supporting the war should be taken out and shot
> ...


Yes! And rightly so.


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 1, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Polishprince said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


You don't honor shit. Just as well because you have no honor to give.


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## rightwinger (Jun 1, 2021)

Polishprince said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Polishprince said:
> ...


Why not just put up a statue to Ho Chi Minh?


9thIDdoc said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


It was a Civil War that we turned into a proxy cold war

Cost a million lives


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 1, 2021)

Sunni Man said:


> The way history is taught by leftist liberals in America today.
> I have no doubt that within a few decades.
> Vietnam veterans statues and memorials will be torn down, and the soldiers who fought in the war will be vilified as war criminals in schools and universities. ...


They were doing that the time and still do occasionally.


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 1, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Polishprince said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


You got that backwards.


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## gipper (Jun 1, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


It doesn’t matter. It was none of our business and we never should have been there. Clearly you know this now right?  Vietnam never was our enemy and they certainly haven’t been for a long time.

We were lied to. The domino theory was bogus bull shit. All that death and destruction for NOTHING, but it did massively enrich the MIC.


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## Mr Natural (Jun 1, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> We were in Vietnam to counter North Vietnam imperialism. Sounds like you are OK with imperialism as long as the imperialists are communist.


And that was Vietnam’s problem, not ours.


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## gipper (Jun 1, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


No. We were in Vietnam to impose imperialism.


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 1, 2021)

gipper said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> > gipper said:
> ...


That's a lie. You flatter yourself by thinking you have the first clue. You don't.


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## Dayton3 (Jun 1, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Mr Clean said:
> 
> 
> > Fifty thousand young guys (many enslaved via the draft) died needlessly  in that fucking useless fiasco. It made me ashamed to be an American.
> ...


no it wasn't


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## Dayton3 (Jun 1, 2021)

gipper said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> > gipper said:
> ...


How do you figure that?


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## OKTexas (Jun 1, 2021)

longly said:


> *In science, one verifies one's observations by submitting them to peer review. I remember something very clearly from the Vietnam War, but liberal friends and acquaintances tell me it never happened. I  have done internet research, but I can't find anything in regards to this issue. Now I know she made those comments before the internet, but they should be in the history of the time.  So here is the question for all  the boomer generation that may be on this site: I remember Jane Fonda praising the Khmer Rouge for their victory in  Cambodia; do you remember it?   Do you have a source that would back up my memories?*








__





						American leftists were Pol Pot's cheerleaders - The Boston Globe
					





					archive.boston.com
				




.


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## gipper (Jun 2, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> > 9thIDdoc said:
> ...


 Very poor response. Dispute my points with facts. Otherwise STFU.


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## gipper (Jun 2, 2021)

Dayton3 said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> > 9thIDdoc said:
> ...


If you think our government invaded to protect South Vietnam, you need to do some research.


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## RetiredGySgt (Jun 2, 2021)

gipper said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
> 
> > gipper said:
> ...


Our fight in South Vietnam wore out China and the Soviets and in fact when the North turned on the Soviets and China that saw an end to adventurism by the Communists.


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## gipper (Jun 2, 2021)

RetiredGySgt said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> > Dayton3 said:
> ...


I don’t agree. The war didn’t wear them out. It did wear out the American people though. Sadly, we learned nothing from this imperialist fiasco.

Do you think millions of deaths and destruction of much of Vietnam and Cambodia was worth wear wearing out China and USSR?


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## RetiredGySgt (Jun 2, 2021)

gipper said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > gipper said:
> ...


yes I do. And we won in South Vietnam the dems sold out the south in 74 and 75.


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## rightwinger (Jun 2, 2021)

Dayton3 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Mr Clean said:
> ...


In what bizarro world was our Vietnam policy not a disaster?


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## rightwinger (Jun 2, 2021)

RetiredGySgt said:


> And we won in South Vietnam the dems sold out the south in 74 and 75.



Yea....just like Trump won in 2020 and the dems sold him out 

Alternate reality


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## rightwinger (Jun 2, 2021)

gipper said:


> If you think our government invaded to protect South Vietnam, you need to do some research.


From the Pentagon Papers

In another example, a memo from the Defense Department under the Johnson Administration listed the reasons for American persistence:


70% – To avoid a humiliating U.S. defeat (to our reputation as a guarantor).
20% – To keep [South Vietnam] (and the adjacent) territory from Chinese hands.
10% – To permit the people [of South Vietnam] to enjoy a better, freer way of life.
ALSO – To emerge from the crisis without unacceptable taint from methods used.
NOT – To help a friend, although it would be hard to stay in if asked out.


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## gipper (Jun 2, 2021)

RetiredGySgt said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> > RetiredGySgt said:
> ...


Lol. Yeah we won. Then we lost.

It was clear to the US when Nixon/Ford signed the Paris Peace Accords treaty that NV wasn’t going to abide by it. So, it was a phony treaty. We declared victory and left. Then the Ds refused to get us back in the war after the SV couldn’t fight worth a shit. Good thing too. 

If only our corrupt leaders had supported Ho Chi Minh in the 1950s making Vietnam a friend rather than an enemy, we could have avoided millions of deaths. Somehow this is never discussed. We never learn from our mistakes.


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## RetiredGySgt (Jun 2, 2021)

gipper said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > gipper said:
> ...


Wrong the South fought fine, in 1974 the dems cut off their supplies their ammo and their spare parts and then when tthe North attacked the dems refused to honor a TREATY. As for shit even with out our support the South fought for a month.


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## gipper (Jun 2, 2021)

RetiredGySgt said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> > RetiredGySgt said:
> ...


Yes you do??? WTF man. You’re crazy.

You and old Madeline Halfbright have much in common.


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## gipper (Jun 2, 2021)

RetiredGySgt said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> > RetiredGySgt said:
> ...


Wrong. The South couldn’t fight a paper tiger. Get informed.


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## RetiredGySgt (Jun 2, 2021)

gipper said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > gipper said:
> ...


retard in 72 the south fought WITHOUT US troops and stopped the North and in 75 they fought for a month out numbered and with out supplies. Learn some facts dumb ass.


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## gipper (Jun 2, 2021)

RetiredGySgt said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> > RetiredGySgt said:
> ...


Lol. Fool. Why were they without supplies?  Why were they outnumbered?  Shouldn’t they have been prepared?


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## Mikeoxenormous (Jun 2, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> > 9thIDdoc said:
> ...


It wasnt American Imperialism, it was French Imperialism that we entered the war of Viet Nam.


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## Mikeoxenormous (Jun 2, 2021)

RetiredGySgt said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> > RetiredGySgt said:
> ...


No, actually the gipper is right on this...France didnt want to lose their slaves in Vienam, and the wealth of that country, so went to war, thinking France could with better tanks, beat a bunch of rag tag people....Sorta like what the Brits thought about US in the revolution....Then Kennedy had to put boots on the ground in support of France..  

That is the history, which we seemed to repeat...


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## Dayton3 (Jun 2, 2021)

gipper said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
> 
> > gipper said:
> ...



Who did the U.S. invade in Southeast Asia?    We never actually invaded North Vietnam.


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## gipper (Jun 2, 2021)

Dayton3 said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> > Dayton3 said:
> ...


Lol. Yeah we just bombed the shit out of them, Cambodia and Laos too. That makes it okay. Right?


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## Dayton3 (Jun 2, 2021)

gipper said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
> 
> > gipper said:
> ...


Yes.   That is not an "invasion".


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## gipper (Jun 2, 2021)

Dayton3 said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> > Dayton3 said:
> ...


Oh brother.


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 2, 2021)

gipper said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> > gipper said:
> ...


*No. We were in Vietnam to impose imperialism.*

That is not even an attempt at making a point. It is a statement. And-as I said-it is a lie. If you wish it to be accepted as truth (and therefore a valid point) prove your statement or STFU.


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 2, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


The real one. But you wouldn't know that because you don't live there.


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## RetiredGySgt (Jun 2, 2021)

gipper said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > gipper said:
> ...


Because the Democrats cut them off moron we supplied the South and the dems cut them off god are you really this ignorant of historical facts?


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## gipper (Jun 2, 2021)

RetiredGySgt said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> > RetiredGySgt said:
> ...


You said outnumbered. Do you know what that means?  It certainly has nothing to do with the USA. 

Why didn’t they properly supply their army?  They had to know the US wasn’t dependable.

Has it occurred to you that they didn’t have the will to fight?  They were terribly corrupt and incompetent. 

Is it your opinion the US government should have returned to Vietnam and continued the war, killing millions more people?


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## rightwinger (Jun 2, 2021)

RetiredGySgt said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> > RetiredGySgt said:
> ...


We carried their asses for nearly ten years

America had enough of carrying the corrupt Southern Government


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 2, 2021)

andaronjim said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> > gipper said:
> ...


Whether or not the French presence was imperialistic is beside the point. We are not French. The French were gone, that's how North and South Vietnam became two separate nations like North and South Korea had. South Vietnam was our ally. We went to try to help it defend against communist invasion at their request and as obligated by treaty. Your knowledge of history sucks.


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## Wyatt earp (Jun 2, 2021)

Mr Clean said:


> Fifty thousand young guys (many enslaved via the draft) died needlessly  in that fucking useless fiasco. It made me ashamed to be an American.
> 
> I escaped it by joining the Navy.
> 
> And Jane Fonda remains a hero of mine for doing what she did.


Fucking coward


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 2, 2021)

gipper said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
> 
> > gipper said:
> ...


Yeah. We bombed the shit out of those parts of countries that North Vietnam had invaded occupied and controlled for years. This is a picture I took of Cambodians in Cambodia during the May 1970 Cambodian Incursion. Do they look angry or afraid to you? They seemed really happy to see us.




And, yes, that was exactly the right thing to do. If you go to war you must wage war to the best of your ability or you will most certainly die. I like living.


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## rightwinger (Jun 2, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> > Dayton3 said:
> ...


You were not shooting at them or burning down their hut at the time. 
Civilians paid a horrible price in that war


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## rightwinger (Jun 2, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> andaronjim said:
> 
> 
> > 9thIDdoc said:
> ...



That was our mistake number two in Vietnam. After they separated north and south after the French left, we agreed to an election within five years. 
When it became obvious that Ho Chi Minh would win that election easily.....we changed our mind
We preferred to allow millions to die rather than allow them to live under Communism


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## The Sage of Main Street (Jun 2, 2021)

Dayton3 said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> > Dayton3 said:
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*Dead Marine Zone*

I was there when North Vietnam invaded the South (Operation Prairie, September, 1966).  Not invading back and letting them use it as a sanctuary and staging area is why we lost the war.


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## Desperado (Jun 2, 2021)

Dayton3 said:


> gipper said:
> 
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> > Dayton3 said:
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At least the US did not try to rebuild the countries after bombing them


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## gipper (Jun 2, 2021)

Desperado said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
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> > gipper said:
> ...


Yeah...now we destroy and prevent rebuilding. The US arms it’s proxies who do the murdering and destroying, then they sanction the hell out of that nation to prevent it from rebuilding. The PR is better this way. See Syria.

The Evil Empire used to be the long dead USSR.  It’s now the USA. Amazingly few Americans know this. The power of government propaganda should never be discounted.


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 2, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
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We agreed to aid free and honest elections but when the time approached the NVA/VC had armed troops in place to decide who would/wouldn't vote. That would not have been a free or honest election and none of the other parties involved had any intention of abiding by the results and stated so plainly. It wasn't our decision to make. Of course anti-American  communist sympathizers like yourself have continued to try to somehow use that as propaganda. 
Americans were willing to die rather than allow communists to enslave a peaceful ally who wanted no part of them. The idea of a few million dead communists just gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling. They killed my friends. You think I should kiss them?


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 2, 2021)

gipper said:


> Desperado said:
> 
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> > Dayton3 said:
> ...


It's amazing how many alleged Americans are willing to slander their own Country. Bad habit to get in to.


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## Mr Natural (Jun 2, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> Americans were willing to die rather than allow communists to enslave a peaceful ally who wanted no part of them.



Most were enslaved via the draft and expected to needlessly give their lives for a meaningless military escapade.

The thing I’m most proud of my Boomer Generation doing was getting rid of the the draft.


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 2, 2021)

Mr Clean said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> > Americans were willing to die rather than allow communists to enslave a peaceful ally who wanted no part of them.
> ...


Nobody has gotten rid of the draft. It's just not presently being used. Doesn't mean it won't be back in use tomorrow or fifteen minutes from now.


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## Dayton3 (Jun 2, 2021)

gipper said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > gipper said:
> ...


As long as we killed communists,  why not?

And South Vietnam did not have the economy capable of outfitting a modern military.    North Vietnam didn't have that problem as they were lavishly supplied by the Chinese and Soviets.


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## Dayton3 (Jun 2, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> > Desperado said:
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There are plenty of filthy anti American bastards on political message boards.


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## gipper (Jun 2, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> gipper said:
> 
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> > Desperado said:
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Yeah our great wonderful country run by psychopaths should never be criticized.


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## gipper (Jun 2, 2021)

Dayton3 said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
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> > gipper said:
> ...


Yes I’m a traitor in a nation that claims it offers it’s people freedom.  Apparently some Americans would prefer a much more tyrannical government that imprisons all who oppose the empire. You’d do will in Nazi Germany.


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## Dayton3 (Jun 2, 2021)

gipper said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
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> > 9thIDdoc said:
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Nazi Germany hasn't existed in three quarters of a century. 

Whom has the U.S. imprisoned for political reasons?


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## gipper (Jun 2, 2021)

Dayton3 said:


> gipper said:
> 
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> > Dayton3 said:
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Oh be honest. You’d gladly imprison me and those like me.


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## gipper (Jun 2, 2021)

Dayton3 said:


> gipper said:
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> ...


Ever of a guy named Julian Assange?


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## Desperado (Jun 2, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> Mr Clean said:
> 
> 
> > 9thIDdoc said:
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There would be hell to pay if they even tried to bring it back,
No Presidential candidate could get away with supporting the draft


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## Desperado (Jun 2, 2021)

Dayton3 said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> > gipper said:
> ...


Yes I agree and they defend Israel's attack on the USS Liberty, and a bunch of useless wars that the US paid for in Blood and money.


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## Dayton3 (Jun 2, 2021)

gipper said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
> 
> > gipper said:
> ...


Why?


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## Dayton3 (Jun 2, 2021)

Desperado said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
> 
> > 9thIDdoc said:
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Whining about Israel's mistaken attack on the Liberty doesn't make someone pro American.


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 2, 2021)

Desperado said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> > Mr Clean said:
> ...


People said the same thing last time. Then they drafted me. Tends to make people a bit skeptical.


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## rightwinger (Jun 2, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> Desperado said:
> 
> 
> > 9thIDdoc said:
> ...


The nature of military service has changed in the last 50 years.  
It s not as labor intensive and is more specialized and high skilled 
A Volunteer service is optimal


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 2, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> > Desperado said:
> ...


What changes in the military is peacetime vs wartime. We have had a basically peacetime military since Vietnam. But you forget that highly skilled/trained people were prime targets of the draft and will be again. Those folks tend to be highly successful and well paid in cushy civilian employment. Do you honestly think they are going to run out and enlist for a drastic cut in pay, and horrible living conditions away from their loved ones (to possibly never see them again)? Should war come our more effeminate soldiers will be leaving the military post haste and will need to be replaced. I am-and always have been-against the draft. Nations that require slave armies to exist simply don't deserve to. If citizens are unwilling to attend to the duties and responsibilities of citizenship they deserve to become slaves to whoever will take them.


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## Dayton3 (Jun 3, 2021)

Consc


9thIDdoc said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > 9thIDdoc said:
> ...


Conscription is NOT SLAVERY.    You also forget (in the United States) the relationship between conscription and volunteering.    That is historically a substantial number of Americans volunteered for service in part due to the existence of a draft so they would have some control over their fates.


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## Mr Natural (Jun 3, 2021)

Dayton3 said:


> Conscription is NOT SLAVERY. You also forget (in the United States) the relationship between conscription and volunteering. That is historically a substantial number of Americans volunteered for service in part due to the existence of a draft so they would have some control over their fates.


Slavery is exactly what it is.

Or do you prefer the term "Involuntary Servitude"?


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## Desperado (Jun 3, 2021)

Dayton3 said:


> Consc
> 
> 
> 9thIDdoc said:
> ...


Conscription is NOT SLAVERY  yes it is!
If you get drafted you do not have a choice, either serve in the army or spend time in jail.  Sounds like slavery to me when you don't have a choice on how you live your life.


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## Moonglow (Jun 3, 2021)

andaronjim said:


> After WWII, there were calls from around the world that imperialism should be put to rest and countries should all have their own representation.  Viet Nam, with Ho Chi Min had begged the UN and United States to have his country be free of the French imperialism rule.  But the French who were devastated by the war, didnt want to relinquish their rule of the gooks of Viet Nam, and the UN and Truman agreed with France.  So Ho Chi, went to war with the French, and we all know how that ended....
> 
> Thank the French and Democrats for always getting US fucked....


The US took over during Eisenhower


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## Dayton3 (Jun 3, 2021)

Desperado said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
> 
> > Consc
> ...


There are much worse things in life than not having a choice as to how you live your life.


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## rightwinger (Jun 3, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> Americans were willing to die rather than allow communists to enslave a peaceful ally who wanted no part of them. The idea of a few million dead communists just gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling. They killed my friends. You think I should kiss them?



50 years of history has shown that not to be true. The propaganda at the time talked about communist enslavement and mass murder. The fact is that the average Vietnamese person did better than they did under French or American occupation.
Yes, 60,000 Americans died rather than allow Vietnam to become communist.  The few million “dead communists” you talk about were average civilians trying to survive in the midst of an unnecessary war.
Your friends died because of war hawks willing to sacrifice them for political and financial reasons


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## rightwinger (Jun 3, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> What changes in the military is peacetime vs wartime. We have had a basically peacetime military since Vietnam. But you forget that highly skilled/trained people were prime targets of the draft and will be again. Those folks tend to be highly successful and well paid in cushy civilian employment. Do you honestly think they are going to run out and enlist for a drastic cut in pay, and horrible living conditions away from their loved ones (to possibly never see them again)? Should war come our more effeminate soldiers will be leaving the military post haste and will need to be replaced. I am-and always have been-against the draft. Nations that require slave armies to exist simply don't deserve to. If citizens are unwilling to attend to the duties and responsibilities of citizenship they deserve to become slaves to whoever will take them.



The nature of military service has changed.  Back in your day we used to call them “grunts”. Stick a rifle in their hands and send them to the front. A draft served that purpose. When they die, just draft more.

Since Vietnam, being a soldier requires more skill. Volunteers want to be there and are worth investing the money to teach those skills. They are also more motivated than your average draftee. We have fewer soldiers but they are more lethal.


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## Desperado (Jun 3, 2021)

Dayton3 said:


> Desperado said:
> 
> 
> > Dayton3 said:
> ...


Really,   I thought we were fighting for freedom which I thought meant having a choice on how you live your life!  God you have one very strange concept of freedom


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 3, 2021)

Dayton3 said:


> Consc
> 
> 
> 9thIDdoc said:
> ...


I forget nothing. _You_ forget that I've been there; done that and paid attention. I received my draft notice but enlisted for the very reason you state. I suspected I might be allergic to assorted chunks of metal penetrating my body. I was offered my choice of Army schools based on my scores on entrance testing but was required to commit to an additional 1-2 years service. I signed up and-following basic training-was indeed transported to my chosen school where I was promptly informed that the Army had completed it's contract by sending me *to* the school. I could be reassigned at any time at the army's discretion for any reason. Make no mistake, when you enter the military (government) *owns* you and retains the option to reclaim you for decades after you "get out". If you willfully or negligently damage yourself you will be charged with "Damaging Government Property" and penalized. Elsewhere slaves are considered an investment and are reasonably housed and fed but, as in other forms of slavery, in the military if you prove to be more a liability than an asset seriously bad things will happen to you which may include death or dismemberment. 
Don't misunderstand. I do believe citizenship comes with a duty to serve the Nation if needed and would do it again if necessary and am proud of, and pleased with, my service. But signing up should always be optional rather than forced. If America is to be a free country it must not do so through slavery.


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 3, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> > What changes in the military is peacetime vs wartime. We have had a basically peacetime military since Vietnam. But you forget that highly skilled/trained people were prime targets of the draft and will be again. Those folks tend to be highly successful and well paid in cushy civilian employment. Do you honestly think they are going to run out and enlist for a drastic cut in pay, and horrible living conditions away from their loved ones (to possibly never see them again)? Should war come our more effeminate soldiers will be leaving the military post haste and will need to be replaced. I am-and always have been-against the draft. Nations that require slave armies to exist simply don't deserve to. If citizens are unwilling to attend to the duties and responsibilities of citizenship they deserve to become slaves to whoever will take them.
> ...


Most of that is bullshit. The objectives in warfare remain the same. The tools continually change but the basics remain constant.  Wars are won or lost by destroying the enemy or his assets. And it usually involves occupying or defending places. Neither of the things can be done without boots on the ground and those boots are worn by grunts. In many ways that makes him the most important weapon in the arsenal and vital to any war effort. Everything else in the military exists to support the grunt. That is the reality throughout human history and is unlikely to change anytime soon.
The average soldier in Vietnam enlisted rather than being drafted. Being a "volunteer" in no way indicates you want to be there or that you can or will do a better job than a draftee.


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 3, 2021)

Moonglow said:


> andaronjim said:
> 
> 
> > After WWII, there were calls from around the world that imperialism should be put to rest and countries should all have their own representation.  Viet Nam, with Ho Chi Min had begged the UN and United States to have his country be free of the French imperialism rule.  But the French who were devastated by the war, didnt want to relinquish their rule of the gooks of Viet Nam, and the UN and Truman agreed with France.  So Ho Chi, went to war with the French, and we all know how that ended....
> ...


Untrue. The US never "took over". When did the US claim to own any part of Vietnam?


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## Desperado (Jun 3, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> The average soldier in Vietnam enlisted rather than being drafted. Being a "volunteer" in no way indicates you want to be there or that you can or will do a better job than a draftee.


These "volunteers"  only enlisted because of the draft and by enlisting they thought they might get the job training they wanted.
What they actually got was 2 more years of active service than if they were drafted.  I have heard horror stories of the Army breaking their word on the specified training even if the enlistee had  contract.  The smarter ones if they did not mind the extended service time joined the Navy or Air Force.


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## rightwinger (Jun 3, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > 9thIDdoc said:
> ...


Thanks for your insight Sun Tsu

Yes the military has changed significantly from the Draft based Army you were in. 
Warfare has changed 
Grunts in trenches is not the way to win battles.  Today’s Army is smaller and more mobile. They are more high tech and require more advanced training.

The days of recruiting high school dropouts and guys looking to avoid jail are gone for good.  Today’s Army is more motivated and better educated and man for man...much more lethal.

Nice try with your BS that “the average Vietnam soldier enlisted”. You know better and I will not even bother to tell you why.


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## longly (Jun 3, 2021)

OKTexas said:


> longly said:
> 
> 
> > *In science, one verifies one's observations by submitting them to peer review. I remember something very clearly from the Vietnam War, but liberal friends and acquaintances tell me it never happened. I  have done internet research, but I can't find anything in regards to this issue. Now I know she made those comments before the internet, but they should be in the history of the time.  So here is the question for all  the boomer generation that may be on this site: I remember Jane Fonda praising the Khmer Rouge for their victory in  Cambodia; do you remember it?   Do you have a source that would back up my memories?*
> ...


From the above link:

"But nowhere in the Times story was there a reminder that the Khmer Rouge was able to seize power only after the US Congress in 1975 cut off all aid to the embattled pro-American government of Lon Nol -- and that it did so despite frantic warnings of the bloodbath that would ensue. President Ford warned of "horror and tragedy" if Cambodia was abandoned to the Khmer Rouge and pleaded with Congress to supply Lon Nol's army with the tools it needed to defend itself.

Ford's warning was to no avail. Though US troops had come home two years earlier, American antiwar activists were still intent on effecting the "liberation" of Southeast Asia. Radicals like *Jane Fonda*, David Dellinger, and Tom Hayden stormed the country, denouncing anyone who opposed communist victory in Cambodia and Vietnam. On the campuses, in the media, and in Congress, it was taken on faith that a Khmer Rouge victory would bring peace and enlightened leadership to Cambodia."


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 3, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


You just can't be bothered with facts can you? Your imagination is always preferred and insisted upon. 









						How effective draftees in the Vietnam War actually were
					

The image of the men who fought in Vietnam is usually that of a draftee who didn't want to be there, likely from a poor family, who were sent to die while they were still teens. But nothing could be further from the truth. Only a third of Vietnam v…




					www.wearethemighty.com
				



_*The image of the men who fought in Vietnam is usually that of a draftee who didn’t want to be there, likely from a poor family, who were sent to die while they were still teens. But nothing could be further from the truth. Only a third of Vietnam vets were draftees. The average age of U.S. troops in Southeast Asia was 23, and more than 80 percent had a high school diploma, twice as many as the World War II generation. They were more educated, affluent, and older than any assembled American fighting force who came before them.*_


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## rightwinger (Jun 3, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> Only a third of Vietnam vets were draftees.





9thIDdoc said:


> They were more educated, affluent, and older than any assembled American fighting force who came before them.



Again you ignore those who “enlisted” in the service or MOS of their choice rather than being drafted. Not exactly a volunteer if you have a draft hanging over your head.

More educated and affluent than fighting forces BEFORE Vietnam
We are talking about volunteer forces AFTER Vietnam


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## OKTexas (Jun 3, 2021)

longly said:


> OKTexas said:
> 
> 
> > longly said:
> ...




I guess that answered your question. Beware, they are trying to bring the same "enlightened leadership" here, that Vietnam and Cambodia got.

.


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 3, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> > Only a third of Vietnam vets were draftees.
> ...


My statement:
_*The average soldier in Vietnam* enlisted rather than being drafted. Being a "volunteer" in no way indicates you want to be there or that you can or will do a better job than a draftee._
clearly refers to soldiers who served in Vietnam. Nobody else before or after. But there is no reason to believe that in the future the same will not be true for the same reasons. You are the one that falsely claimed that most who served in Vietnam were drafted. You are refuted.


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## rightwinger (Jun 3, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > 9thIDdoc said:
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You are being misleading
If you had a low draft number and enlisted, you were basically drafted

Your motivation still sucks 
Doesn’t compare to today’s volunteers 

Today’s Army doesn’t need a draft


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## JustAGuy1 (Jun 3, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> > Americans were willing to die rather than allow communists to enslave a peaceful ally who wanted no part of them. The idea of a few million dead communists just gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling. They killed my friends. You think I should kiss them?
> ...



What a piece of crap liar you are. NOBODY did "better" under the Communists you idiot.


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## rightwinger (Jun 3, 2021)

JustAGuy1 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > 9thIDdoc said:
> ...


History says you are wrong

Vietnam went from peasants working rice fields in extreme poverty to one of the fastest growing economies in the world.

In 1986, Vietnam launched a political and economic renewal campaign (_Đổi Mới_) that introduced reforms to facilitate the transition from a centralized economy to a "socialist-oriented market economy". _Đổi Mới_ combined government planning with free-marketincentives and encouraged the establishment of private businesses and foreign investment, including foreign-owned enterprises. FBy the late 1990s, the success of the business and agricultural reforms ushered in under _Đổi Mới_ was evident. More than 30,000 private businesses had been created, the economy was growing at an annual rate of more than 7%, and poverty was nearly halved.[35]

Throughout the 1990s, exports increased by as much as 20% to 30% in some years. In 1999, exports accounted for 40% of GDP, an impressive performance in the midst of the economic crisis that hit other countries in Asia









						Economy of Vietnam - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## JustAGuy1 (Jun 3, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> JustAGuy1 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



Look dumbass, we're talking about Vietnam in the 60's, they purged the population of MILLIONS of people. God you're an idiot. How do you even look at yourself in the mirror? Who defends Communism.


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 3, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> JustAGuy1 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


The Communist masters benefit from the economy. Are the people (those who weren't slaughtered by those same masters) any happier or better off? But you wouldn't know or care.


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## rightwinger (Jun 3, 2021)

JustAGuy1 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > JustAGuy1 said:
> ...



The senseless war killed millions of civilians just to keep them from turning Communist

History has shown that Vietnam did just fine under Communism. Much better than under French and US occupation


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## JustAGuy1 (Jun 3, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> JustAGuy1 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



You can't move the goal posts, it will NEVER work with me.

Look dumbass, we're talking about Vietnam in the 60's, they purged the population of MILLIONS of people. God you're an idiot. How do you even look at yourself in the mirror? Who defends Communism. You're sick, very sick.


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## rightwinger (Jun 3, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> The Communist masters benefit from the economy. Are the people (those who weren't slaughtered by those same masters) any happier or better off? But you wouldn't know or care


Yes
The people are infinitely better off than under 25 years of war and under colonial French

Yes, the standard of living is much better in Vietnam


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## rightwinger (Jun 3, 2021)

JustAGuy1 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > JustAGuy1 said:
> ...



The war purged millions of people
The point I have been making throughout this thread is that interference by the French and the US led to millions of unnecessary deaths over 25 years of war.

Also that the threat of the evils that would happen from them turning Commie turned out to be grossly exaggerated and Vietnam did just fine without their Western masters


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## JustAGuy1 (Jun 3, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> JustAGuy1 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



Tell that to the MILLIONS that they purged junior. You are a disgusting human.


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## Dayton3 (Jun 3, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
> 
> > Consc
> ...


I forgot nothing.    I simply did not pay attention with you to begin with.

Actually World War Two had higher percentage of draftees serving in the military than Vietnam did.

Would  you suggest the U.S. should not have drafted so many millions in World War Two?    Wasn't it worth it to help defeat Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan?


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## Mr Natural (Jun 3, 2021)

Dayton3 said:


> Wasn't it worth it to help defeat Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan?


Germany and Japan were a threat to the world.  

Vietnam was not.


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## JustAGuy1 (Jun 3, 2021)

Mr Clean said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
> 
> > Wasn't it worth it to help defeat Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan?
> ...



It was all about the money.


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## Desperado (Jun 3, 2021)

Dayton3 said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> > Dayton3 said:
> ...


Are you actually comparing WW2 to Vietnam?
Was it worth all the American Dead and wounded to help South Vietnam in their civil war?


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## rightwinger (Jun 3, 2021)

JustAGuy1 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > JustAGuy1 said:
> ...


Get your Google out and......Show me where Vietnam purged MILLIONS of people


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## Dayton3 (Jun 3, 2021)

JustAGuy1 said:


> Mr Clean said:
> 
> 
> > Dayton3 said:
> ...


Prove it by citing unbiased sources please.


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## Dayton3 (Jun 3, 2021)

A


Desperado said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
> 
> > 9thIDdoc said:
> ...


Absolutely.     And there was no civil war in South Vietnam after the Viet Cong were destroyed effectively in 1968.

South Vietnam did not fall to a  bunch of guerrillas in pajamas.    South Vietnam fell to massive North Vietnamese columns of tanks featuring more armored vehicles than the Nazis used to conquer France in 1940.


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## Dayton3 (Jun 3, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> JustAGuy1 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


The book "The Black Book of Communism" indicates that.    And it was exhaustively researched.


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## JustAGuy1 (Jun 3, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> JustAGuy1 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



Just stop, you look like an ass here. The Vietnam War encompassed Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos. You REALLY want to try and make the point that there was no purge?


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## rightwinger (Jun 3, 2021)

Dayton3 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > JustAGuy1 said:
> ...


Show me where Vietnam purged MILLIONS of people


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## rightwinger (Jun 3, 2021)

JustAGuy1 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > JustAGuy1 said:
> ...


Same challenge to you
Show me where Vietnam purged MILLIONS of people
Otherwise....YOU look like an ass


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## Desperado (Jun 3, 2021)

Dayton3 said:


> A
> 
> 
> Desperado said:
> ...


You have proven you have no common sense.
The US should never have been involved in Vietnam in the first place.


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## JustAGuy1 (Jun 3, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> JustAGuy1 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



You aren't my league, first you use statistics from the 80's and 90's when we're talking about the 60's and early 70's, now you're dodging again.

The Vietnam War encompassed Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos. You REALLY want to try and make the point that there was no purge?


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## rightwinger (Jun 3, 2021)

JustAGuy1 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > JustAGuy1 said:
> ...


We are talking about Vietnam being better off under the Communist leadership than under French and US occupation. My referencing the 80s and 90s shows that

Still waiting for you to show your claim that VIETNAM killed millions
Not Laos and Cambodia. They are different countries


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## JustAGuy1 (Jun 3, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> JustAGuy1 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



Run along junior.

*Vietnam War or Second Indochina War *broke out between the communists which included Democratic Republic of Vietnam (North Vietnam) and National Liberation Front (Viet Cong), and the anti-communists which included the USA, Republic of Vietnam (South Vietnam) and its allies such as Australia, South Korea, Thailand etc. The communists received supports from People's Republic of China and Soviet Union. The war lasted from 1960 to 1975 and spilled over into Laos and Cambodia. 








						Communist Party of Vietnam - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				





The Khmer Rouge regime murdered hundreds of thousands of their perceived political opponents, and its racist emphasis on national purity resulted in the genocide of Cambodian minorities. Arbitrary executions and torture were carried out by its cadres against perceived subversive elements, or during genocidal purges of its own ranks between 1975 and 1978.[14] Ultimately, the Cambodian genocide led to the death of 1.5 to 2 million people, around 25% of Cambodia's population.









						Khmer Rouge - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## JustAGuy1 (Jun 3, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> JustAGuy1 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



KId you're dodging. I knew you would, sissy's like you always do. The vietnam war was not fought in just Vietnam. Your shit can't/won't work on me.


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## rightwinger (Jun 3, 2021)

JustAGuy1 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > JustAGuy1 said:
> ...


Nice try
But Vietnam did not control Pol Pot or the Khmer Rouge.
Your link

“The regime was removed from power in 1979 when Vietnam invaded Cambodia and quickly destroyed most of the Khmer Rouge's forces.”

You claimed Vietnam Communists killed millions.....still waiting


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## rightwinger (Jun 3, 2021)

JustAGuy1 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > JustAGuy1 said:
> ...



The US extended the war into Laos and Cambodia

Your claiming that Pol Pot was a Vietnam stooge is incorrect


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## JustAGuy1 (Jun 3, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> JustAGuy1 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



You're not a bright guy, as I have shown the Vietnam War was not confined to Vietnam, it spilled into Cambodia and Laos. The Vietnam Communists supported and fought along side the Communists of Cambodia. I said the Communists purged millions. You don't read well. You should also research what the Vietnam Communists did to the Vietnamese people. Have you always been a Communist?

"*The communists received supports from People's Republic of China and Soviet Union. The war lasted from 1960 to 1975 and spilled over into Laos and Cambodia."  

Vietnam on it's own....

The first time, charges arose from Hanoi's policy of forcing tens of thousands of its longtime citizens of Chinese ancestry onto the high seas in boats no better than floating coffins. Uncounted thousands died before an international outcry ended at least the most egregious manifestations of that policy.

Having practiced genocide on one ethnic group, Vietnam promptly turned upon another. As part of an evident effort to dominate the whole Indochinese peninsula, Hanoi has put hundreds of thousands of Cambodians -- perhaps even millions -- under the threat of starvation. These people have been driven from their homes and fields into barren no-man's-lands where all the combatants in the continuing war in Cambodia, but especially the Vietnamese, are using crop destruction and denial tactics to impose their political control.






						Vietnam War and question for the boomer generation
					

Americans were willing to die rather than allow communists to enslave a peaceful ally who wanted no part of them. The idea of a few million dead communists just gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling. They killed my friends. You think I should kiss them?   50 years of history has shown that not to be...



					www.usmessageboard.com
				



*


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## JustAGuy1 (Jun 3, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> JustAGuy1 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



Run along, you don't get to words in my mouth. The Communists (as they ALWAYS do) purged millions. Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, ALL Communist regimes do it.


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## rightwinger (Jun 3, 2021)

JustAGuy1 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > JustAGuy1 said:
> ...



MOVE THOSE GOALPOSTS

We fought against Communism in VIETNAM
You are bringing up other countries that Vietnam had no control over.

If you are concerned with Pol Pot, it was VIETNAM that invaded Cambodia and drove the Khmer Rouge out


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 3, 2021)

Dayton3 said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> > Dayton3 said:
> ...


I suggest that if the US had not been able to defeat Nazi Germany, and Imperial Japan without conscription she did not deserve to do so. If the people will not support and defend the Country they are citizens of, they do not deserve that country. Freedom and slavery do not mix. I believe that the people of that generation would have done just fine without conscription. They still believed in duty honor and Country. The cowards of the Vietnam era-dodged the draft and went went to Canada while others were conscripted to go in harms way in their stead. And quite a few never came back. They should have never been allowed to come back and to this day deserve to be deported. If and when the draft is restarted the cowards will simply leave again, allow others to fight and die in their place, reassured that they will be welcomed back with open arms when all the unpleasantness is over.


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 3, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> JustAGuy1 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


By the same token South Vietnam had no control over the US and North Vietnam had no legitimate control over South Vietnam. Our war was with Communism; not over any one particular sect.


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## Desperado (Jun 3, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
> 
> > 9thIDdoc said:
> ...


There has not been a war since WW2 that was worth fighting in.  None of the so called wars we have been involved in since Korea was not worth any American Blood or treasure.  If there still was a draft, I could understand people avoiding it,  These wars play no part in making America safer or Freer


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 3, 2021)

Desperado said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
> 
> > A
> ...


Sez you and the other Communist sympathizers on this board. Talk big but never support your argument.


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## rightwinger (Jun 3, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > JustAGuy1 said:
> ...



Very true
Our war was with Communism in Vietnam
Kill millions just so they won’t become Communist

Better Dead than Red


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 3, 2021)

Desperado said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> > Dayton3 said:
> ...


And if you had been around you would have said the same thing about any other war this country has fought. You think there is no cause that is worth risking one drop of your overly precious blood for. You are just trying to excuse cowardice rather than discussing ideology.


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## Desperado (Jun 3, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> Desperado said:
> 
> 
> > 9thIDdoc said:
> ...


Ill make it easy for you, How did Korea or Vietnam make the United States more free or more secure?


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 3, 2021)

Desperado said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> > Desperado said:
> ...


I'll make it easy for you. What makes think you have the right or the knowledge decide US foreign policy? Megalomania much?


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## longly (Jun 3, 2021)

JustAGuy1 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > 9thIDdoc said:
> ...



Communism is a form of slavery; anyone who supports communist supports slavery. Under communism, the people are the property of the communist state.


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## LA RAM FAN (Jun 3, 2021)

Hossfly said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Mr Clean said:
> ...


  Johnson and Nixon both were traiters as well same as her,they also were responsible fir pows being tortured and beaten desth,those two were the murderers of the 58,000 Americans.


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## Dayton3 (Jun 4, 2021)

Desperado said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> > Desperado said:
> ...


Why should they have?


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## rightwinger (Jun 4, 2021)

Dayton3 said:


> Why should they have?


Because we sacrificed almost 100,000 lives


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## Dayton3 (Jun 4, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
> 
> > Why should they have?
> ...


That doesn't mean the tragic loss of those lives should've resulted in the U.S. benefiting any.     That isn't the way the world tends to work.


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## rightwinger (Jun 4, 2021)

Dayton3 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Dayton3 said:
> ...



Our current military strategy in a nutshell

Deploy around the globe not benefitting the American people


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## Dayton3 (Jun 4, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


You sound like Donald Trump and his accursed obsession with everything being "transactional".


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## Desperado (Jun 4, 2021)

Dayton3 said:


> Desperado said:
> 
> 
> > 9thIDdoc said:
> ...


Because those are the only reasons the US should go to war.


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## Dayton3 (Jun 4, 2021)

Desperado said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
> 
> > Desperado said:
> ...


Why do you figure that?


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 4, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


The government does that with "foreign aid" to a much greater extent not that you're competent to judge loss vs gain. You just like to pretend you are.


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## Desperado (Jun 4, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Dayton3 said:
> ...


Didn't your parents tell you that you cannot buy your friends?
That is exactly what we are doing with foreign aid.


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## Desperado (Jun 4, 2021)

Dayton3 said:


> Desperado said:
> 
> 
> > Dayton3 said:
> ...


Is there any other reason we should put American lives at risk?


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## Dayton3 (Jun 4, 2021)

Desperado said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
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> > Desperado said:
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Assist American allies.


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## Desperado (Jun 4, 2021)

Dayton3 said:


> Desperado said:
> 
> 
> > Dayton3 said:
> ...


Before the wars Korea an Vietnam were are allies?
Iraq and Afghanistan were our allies


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 5, 2021)

Desperado said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
> 
> > Desperado said:
> ...


"We" don't put American lives at risk. The government does, sometimes for good reason. Sometimes not. Either way the average American citizen will never know all the factors that played into a foreign policy decision and that's exactly as it should be because giving enemies critical information about what we are doing or intend to do next also puts lives at risk. The job of the citizen is to elect wise leaders who will make wise decisions and ,if they fail to do this to do this, replace them with someone better.


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 5, 2021)

Desperado said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
> 
> > Desperado said:
> ...


Untrue. And again who are you to say so? You certainly have a right to have and express an opinion but why would anyone mistake your opinion for fact among a few hundred million other idiotic opinions? No support for your opinion?


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## rightwinger (Jun 5, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> The job of the citizen is to elect wise leaders who will make wise decisions and ,if they fail to do this to do this, replace them with someone better.


It is up to “wise leaders” to convince the public that their decision to risk the lives of their children is justified 

Trust us, we have our reasons has not worked out well over the last 50 years


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## rightwinger (Jun 5, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> The government does that with "foreign aid" to a much greater extent not that you're competent to judge loss vs gain. You just like to pretend you are.



Yes I am competent and so is every other American. That is why we have the vote

It is up to the Government to convince the people they are making wise decisions


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## Dayton3 (Jun 5, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> > The job of the citizen is to elect wise leaders who will make wise decisions and ,if they fail to do this to do this, replace them with someone better.
> ...


How do you figure that?    Would the U.S. have been better off if South Korea had been conquered by the North Koreans? 

I'm pretty sure the answer is definitely  no.


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 5, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> > The job of the citizen is to elect wise leaders who will make wise decisions and ,if they fail to do this to do this, replace them with someone better.
> ...


Oh please. When exactly was the last time you made a policy decision for the Nation? You can vote for who you like but whoever gets elected/appointed makes the decisions. And I think you're fooling yourself if you think anyone gives a crap what your foreign policy opinions past, present or future are.

*Trust us, we have our reasons has not worked out well over the last 50 years*
At times yes and at times no. But better by far than "listening to the voice of the people" as Congress claimed to do re; Vietnam.


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## rightwinger (Jun 5, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > 9thIDdoc said:
> ...


Voters made a policy decision in Vietnam

Get the Fuk out


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## rightwinger (Jun 5, 2021)

Dayton3 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > 9thIDdoc said:
> ...


We blew our policy decision when MacArthur ignored the Chinese and decided to conquer North Korea
He got his ass handed to him and cost 40,000 US lives


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## Dayton3 (Jun 5, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



When did they do that?


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## Dayton3 (Jun 5, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



Most Americans killed in the Korean War were killed during the two years of stalemate AFTER MacArthur was relieved of command. 

And the U.S. lost 33,000 killed in the Korean War.    Not 40,000.


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## rightwinger (Jun 5, 2021)

Dayton3 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Dayton3 said:
> ...



Point being that MacArthur escalated the war and brought the Chinese into the conflict


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## rightwinger (Jun 5, 2021)

Dayton3 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > 9thIDdoc said:
> ...


1968


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## Dayton3 (Jun 5, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


Electing the historically vehemently anti communist Nixon wasn't exactly a call to leave Vietnam by voters.


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## Dayton3 (Jun 5, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



How?    U.S./UN forces under MacArthur never attacked China or Chinese forces prior to them swarming across into Korea.


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## rightwinger (Jun 5, 2021)

Dayton3 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Dayton3 said:
> ...


There were more races than Nixon in 1968


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## rightwinger (Jun 5, 2021)

Dayton3 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Dayton3 said:
> ...



Not even worthy of a reply
Come back when you have a legitimate comment to add


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## RetiredGySgt (Jun 5, 2021)

The soviets convinced the Chinese the US was going to invade China and the idiot Mac Arthur did no good to us by threatening to do just that and bomb China.


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## rightwinger (Jun 5, 2021)

RetiredGySgt said:


> The soviets convinced the Chinese the US was going to invade China and the idiot Mac Arthur did no good to us by threatening to do just that and bomb China.



Marching to the Yalu River can be taken as a threat


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## RetiredGySgt (Jun 5, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > The soviets convinced the Chinese the US was going to invade China and the idiot Mac Arthur did no good to us by threatening to do just that and bomb China.
> ...


Ya Mac did exactly what the Soviets wanted, China was not ready for a war having just consolidated the mainland that year.


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## Dayton3 (Jun 5, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



Why isn't that worthy of reply?'

It is true you know.


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 5, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


No they didn't. Congress made a major fuggup and blamed it on "the Voters" when in reality they were merely a small and nasty (but loud) minority bunch of Communist sympathizers .


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## miketx (Jun 5, 2021)

Mr Clean said:


> Easily one  of the most disgusting eras of our history.


Today says, thanks to vermin like you, hold my beer....


----------



## PredFan (Jun 5, 2021)

longly said:


> *In science, one verifies one's observations by submitting them to peer review. I remember something very clearly from the Vietnam War, but liberal friends and acquaintances tell me it never happened. I  have done internet research, but I can't find anything in regards to this issue. Now I know she made those comments before the internet, but they should be in the history of the time.  So here is the question for all  the boomer generation that may be on this site: I remember Jane Fonda praising the Khmer Rouge for their victory in  Cambodia; do you remember it?   Do you have a source that would back up my memories?*


I do. It was the first time I'd ever heard of them.


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## PredFan (Jun 5, 2021)

Whether Jane Fonda was right about the war is irrelevant and stupid. There were many who were right about it and didn't cause prisoners to be tortured, or give solace to the enemy.

Jane Fonda will burn in hell as she deserves.


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 5, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


China brought itself into the war when it thought had an opportunity to invade and capture a lot of new territory cheaply. They gamboled that our politicians didn't have the balls to use the A-bomb and would be more than willing to allow American boys to die than take responsibility for that. More willing to sacrifice the lives of our greatly out-numbered troops rather than killing theirs. I used to wonder whose side the politicians are on but it appears that the vast majority are solely on their own. China still ended up  getting it's ass kicked. Thank a soldier; not a politician.


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## rightwinger (Jun 5, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Dayton3 said:
> ...


China saw the American Army at its border with its Commanding General making inflammatory statements about invading


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## rightwinger (Jun 5, 2021)

PredFan said:


> Whether Jane Fonda was right about the war is irrelevant and stupid. There were many who were right about it and didn't cause prisoners to be tortured, or give solace to the enemy.
> 
> Jane Fonda will burn in hell as she deserves.



More myth
Fonda did not cause prisoners to be tortured


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## Hossfly (Jun 5, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> PredFan said:
> 
> 
> > Whether Jane Fonda was right about the war is irrelevant and stupid. There were many who were right about it and didn't cause prisoners to be tortured, or give solace to the enemy.
> ...



Oh yes she did. When she met the prisoners to talk to and shake hands, some prisoners would slip her a note. When she finished, she turned to an NVA officer, handed him the notes and said, "What am I supposed to do with these." That night the beatings commenced and one   POW died. That was reported in the 70s when POWs were freed.


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## Dayton3 (Jun 5, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



You can't justify sending a half million man army to intervene in a war just because of the commanding general said stuff "inflammatory".


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## RetiredGySgt (Jun 5, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> PredFan said:
> 
> 
> > Whether Jane Fonda was right about the war is irrelevant and stupid. There were many who were right about it and didn't cause prisoners to be tortured, or give solace to the enemy.
> ...


She did when they refused to be photographed with her.


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Jun 5, 2021)

Mr Clean said:


> Fifty thousand young guys (many enslaved via the draft) died needlessly  in that fucking useless fiasco. It made me ashamed to be an American.
> 
> I escaped it by joining the Navy.
> 
> And Jane Fonda remains a hero of mine for doing what she did.


Please, don't ever claim you were in the Navy.  You will have everyone believing we take retards.


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Jun 5, 2021)

Mr Clean said:


> Easily one  of the most disgusting eras of our history.


Yes, your lifetime is a disgusting era.


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Jun 5, 2021)

MaryL said:


> I remember little  about Vietnam *accept *my brother and two of our neighbors where drafted or enlisted. My brother came back, the others are still in Vietnam. Vague memory of Fonda being shown chumming it up with the enemy. Who was worse, LBJ & McNamara or the  entitled liberal contrarians thumbing their  rich entitled noses at everything? Sorry can't answer your question. Don't remember, not sure if it matters anymore.



Why are your brothers still in Vietnam? I am not exactly sure what you mean.

I am sure they were wonderful men and I am sorry for your loss,

BTW, the word is  "except".


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Jun 5, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > 9thIDdoc said:
> ...


That is 22 per day, not 22 minutes.


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Jun 5, 2021)

Mr Clean said:


> The Sage of Main Street said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


Or Captain Asthma?


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Jun 5, 2021)

gipper said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > gipper said:
> ...


You have got to be the most historically ignorant piece of shit on this message board!


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## DudleySmith (Jun 5, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> Colin norris said:
> 
> 
> > RetiredGySgt said:
> ...



Notice these commies never once complain about all the foreign support Ho was getting from the Soviets, followed by the Red Chinese, it was only the U.S. 'interfering n stuff'.


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## DudleySmith (Jun 5, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


Rubbish. They fell when Congress cut them off, while the North was still being supplied by the Russians and Red Chinese. Your stupid myth that the North was some heroic local peasants revolt is just ludicrous lying. The North violated international law throughout the entire war, while the the U.S. fought within the UN mandates; your commie heroes never did, not even once.


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Jun 5, 2021)

gipper said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
> 
> > gipper said:
> ...



No, you need to be hospitalized, not imprisoned.


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Jun 5, 2021)

Desperado said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
> 
> > Consc
> ...


You could join the Navy or Chair Force.


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## OKTexas (Jun 5, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...




Show me you're not a fucking commie propagandist. Oh right, you can't you're paid to spew their propaganda every waking hour.

.


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## OKTexas (Jun 6, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> JustAGuy1 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...




Damn you're stupid. The NVA and VC extended the war into those countries by establishing resupply routes through them. Now run along commie and try to sell your propaganda elsewhere.

.


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## OKTexas (Jun 6, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...




Thanks for proving you know nothing about the military and the value of forward deployed personnel and equipment.

.


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## OKTexas (Jun 6, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...




Only because the politicians drug it out so long by tying the hands of the military. It would have been over in a couple of years if the military were unleashed. As was proven in Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan, micromanagement by politicians doesn't end well for us. But hey keep supporting those commies, you're really good at it. 

.


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## OKTexas (Jun 6, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...




Yet I was in Vietnam in 1970, go figure commie.

.


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## Desperado (Jun 6, 2021)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Desperado said:
> 
> 
> > Dayton3 said:
> ...


true but enlistment was for 4 yeas instead of 2


----------



## rightwinger (Jun 6, 2021)

DudleySmith said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> > Colin norris said:
> ...


Very true
But they didn’t put boots on the ground and bomb the hell out of the enemy like we did


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## rightwinger (Jun 6, 2021)

OKTexas said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Dayton3 said:
> ...


I honor your service but it has nothing to do with my post


----------



## Desperado (Jun 6, 2021)

OKTexas said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > 9thIDdoc said:
> ...


.Not great examples because be have been in Iraq,  and Afghanistan for almost20 year now


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## Dayton3 (Jun 6, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> DudleySmith said:
> 
> 
> > 9thIDdoc said:
> ...


 
The claims that the U.S. "bombed the hell out of the enemy (in Vietnam)" are way overstated.     Most American bombing was on South Vietnam and most hit largely empty jungle areas.


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## DudleySmith (Jun 6, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> DudleySmith said:
> 
> 
> > 9thIDdoc said:
> ...


Oh gee, cuz we threw more stuff in that was like, unfair n stuff... lol lol lol dumb point, but typical of the warped mentality of those who love ridiculous commie propaganda.


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## rightwinger (Jun 6, 2021)

DudleySmith said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > DudleySmith said:
> ...


I didn’t say it was unfair, I said it was stupid for us to get involved


----------



## DudleySmith (Jun 6, 2021)

OKTexas said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > 9thIDdoc said:
> ...



If Johnson had done that the right would have just snivled about him being a war criminal for violating the UN mandates. The fact is regardless of what McNamara, the Chiefs of Staff, and the CIA kept lying about, Johnson's policies defeated the Viet Kong and brought the North to the peace tables in just to years, and eventually led to the bankruptcy and defeat of the Kruschev/ Brezhnev Doctrine by 1973.


----------



## DudleySmith (Jun 6, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> DudleySmith said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


Why? Because you read some bullshit by Noam Chomsky and some commie hippies about 'war sucks n stuff', and think isolationism was a wonderful idea, cuz all those countries that went commie were turned into paradises n stuff?

Letting Soviet and Red Chinese imperialism run wild with no restraints was never an option for sane people.


----------



## Papageorgio (Jun 6, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> White 6 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


She admitted she betrayed our country, no room for you to try to change history.


----------



## DudleySmith (Jun 6, 2021)

OKTexas said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > JustAGuy1 said:
> ...


Yes. But the commies never once called for any of their commie countries' leaders to be tried for war crimes, just Nixon and LBJ. They get their views on VN from Pravda, and the propaganda has never died out on the left. thanks to all the cretins who became university professors and keep the mythology alive among the dopers and sociopaths.


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## DudleySmith (Jun 6, 2021)

Papageorgio said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > White 6 said:
> ...


She was also around 30 or older, so they can't claim she was just a 'naive yoof', either.


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## Papageorgio (Jun 6, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> If Bob Hope had spoken out against the war like Jane Fonda, Mainstream America would have stopped supporting it.
> 
> Instead, he sold the virtue of the war to the American public


Spitting on soldiers when they came home was support?


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## rightwinger (Jun 6, 2021)

DudleySmith said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > DudleySmith said:
> ...


Amazing we still have these delusional wing nuts after 50 years.
History proved us wrong....most have acknowledged it


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## rightwinger (Jun 6, 2021)

Papageorgio said:


> She admitted she betrayed our country, no room for you to try to change history.



Jane Fonda admits she made mistakes and has apologized for what she said about soldiers but not for opposing the war.

Most of those who pushed us into an unnecessary war have not apologized


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## Papageorgio (Jun 6, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Papageorgio said:
> 
> 
> > She admitted she betrayed our country, no room for you to try to change history.
> ...


She was not a patriot and admitted she wasn’t. So blow the idea she was a patriot out your ear.


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## rightwinger (Jun 6, 2021)

Papageorgio said:


> She was not a patriot and admitted she wasn’t. So blow the idea she was a patriot out your ear.



She was more of a Patriot than John Wayne or Bob Hope. 
She saw her country was making a horrible mistake and killing people on both sides needlessly. She was willing to sacrifice her career to fight for a just cause. 
That makes her a Patriot


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## Dayton3 (Jun 6, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Papageorgio said:
> 
> 
> > She was not a patriot and admitted she wasn’t. So blow the idea she was a patriot out your ear.
> ...



Balderwash.    Fonda was and always has been a shameless self promoter.    Also she has an annoying habit of adopting the political causes of her various lovers at the time.


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## Papageorgio (Jun 6, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Papageorgio said:
> 
> 
> > She was not a patriot and admitted she wasn’t. So blow the idea she was a patriot out your ear.
> ...


In your book I guess, in my book she was what she admitted to being, unpatrioti.


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## rightwinger (Jun 6, 2021)

Dayton3 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Papageorgio said:
> ...


Jane Fonda could have taken the Ann Margaret route. 
Henry Fonda’s daughter going on USO tours and kissing soldiers and being used by the Generals to show that the war wasn’t so bad. America would have loved her for it. 

But she took the unpopular stand to oppose the war and her career suffered for it.


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## Papageorgio (Jun 6, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


Doesn’t change that she claimed she was not a patriot. She admitted so, she just has not remorse for being unpatriotic. She was figuratively spitting on the soldiers.


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## Dayton3 (Jun 6, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


Not enough.


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 6, 2021)

Fonda's buddy John Kerry bragged about being a war criminal, lied about his service, lied to Congress under oath about war crimes and the American soldier, and met with enemy representatives while we were at war. And the American commie hippies loves him for it. Being a traitor was the fashion and still is with some.


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## PredFan (Jun 6, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> PredFan said:
> 
> 
> > Whether Jane Fonda was right about the war is irrelevant and stupid. There were many who were right about it and didn't cause prisoners to be tortured, or give solace to the enemy.
> ...


Revisionist history from lefties? No surprise there. She absolutely did. Former POWs said so and I believe them more than you.


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## PredFan (Jun 6, 2021)

Hossfly said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > PredFan said:
> ...


Real actual history.


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## OKTexas (Jun 6, 2021)

Desperado said:


> OKTexas said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...




Actually they are perfect examples of political micromanagement not allowing the military to do what was needed to be done.

.


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## OKTexas (Jun 6, 2021)

DudleySmith said:


> OKTexas said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...




And led to the defeat of South Vietnam.

.


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## rightwinger (Jun 6, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> Fonda's buddy John Kerry bragged about being a war criminal, lied about his service, lied to Congress under oath about war crimes and the American soldier, and met with enemy representatives while we were at war. And the American commie hippies loves him for it. Being a traitor was the fashion and still is with some.


You forgot.....SWIFTBOAT!


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## rightwinger (Jun 6, 2021)

PredFan said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > PredFan said:
> ...



One of those fabricated stories that Conservatives emailed to each other for decades
Did you see what Jane Fonda did!









						Did Jane Fonda Betray American POWs in North Vietnam?
					

The long-standing claim that Jane Fonda turned smuggled messages from U.S. POWs over to their North Vietnamese captors is false.




					www.snopes.com


----------



## Lastamender (Jun 6, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> > Fonda's buddy John Kerry bragged about being a war criminal, lied about his service, lied to Congress under oath about war crimes and the American soldier, and met with enemy representatives while we were at war. And the American commie hippies loves him for it. Being a traitor was the fashion and still is with some.
> ...


You forgot Kerry is a piece of shit.


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 6, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> > Fonda's buddy John Kerry bragged about being a war criminal, lied about his service, lied to Congress under oath about war crimes and the American soldier, and met with enemy representatives while we were at war. And the American commie hippies loves him for it. Being a traitor was the fashion and still is with some.
> ...


Yeah, thanks, he also whined until they let him abandon his boat crew and the duty he had volunteered for.


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## rightwinger (Jun 6, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > 9thIDdoc said:
> ...


Winner, Winner Chicken Dinner!


----------



## White 6 (Jun 6, 2021)

DudleySmith said:


> Papageorgio said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


Naive, stupid and UN-American, but not a yute.  Definitely old enough to know better and be held accountable for her traitorous actions.


----------



## ChemEngineer (Jun 6, 2021)

Mr Clean said:


> Fifty thousand young guys (many enslaved via the draft) died needlessly  in that fucking useless fiasco. It made me ashamed to be an American.
> 
> I escaped it by joining the Navy.
> 
> And Jane Fonda remains a hero of mine for doing what she did.



Hanoi Jane Fonda is one of the most hated women in America by every serviceman except for a few traitors such as you. 

Fonda gave aid and comfort to the enemy of America and South Vietnam, then a free country with free elections, not that you ever gave a shit.

Fonda said, "If you knew communism like I do, you would get down on your knees and pray that America will become communist."  

This filthy whore went on to marry billionaire Leftist Ted Turner.  And you love her.

This filthy whore also was looking up the gun sights of a North Vietnamese anti-aircraft gun and declared, "Oh if I had one of those airplanes in my sights right now....."

She wanted to kill an American pilot, and you declare her to be your hero.  You're a disgusting coward and traitor.


----------



## ChemEngineer (Jun 6, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> peer review is only needed when the facts dont support the hypothesis,,



Peer review is a sham.  Peer reviewed papers have been shown to have as much fraud and errors as non-peer reviewed.


----------



## Mr Natural (Jun 6, 2021)

ChemEngineer said:


> Mr Clean said:
> 
> 
> > Fifty thousand young guys (many enslaved via the draft) died needlessly  in that fucking useless fiasco. It made me ashamed to be an American.
> ...



Hey, asshole, the traitors of the day were the politicians enslaving young men to go die for no good reason in some meaningless military escapade.


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## JustAGuy1 (Jun 6, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Papageorgio said:
> 
> 
> > She admitted she betrayed our country, no room for you to try to change history.
> ...



Rewriting history again? That war belonged to JFK and LBJ.


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## JustAGuy1 (Jun 6, 2021)

Mr Clean said:


> ChemEngineer said:
> 
> 
> > Mr Clean said:
> ...



JFK tried to get out of it and they killed him. LBJ left it for Nixon, Nixon tried to  stop the supply lines just got us into it deeper.


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## rightwinger (Jun 6, 2021)

JustAGuy1 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Papageorgio said:
> ...


OK

Get into your Wayback Machine and find me some Republicans in the 1960s who opposed Vietnam intervention.

Better yet, find me any Republican who opposed the war


----------



## rightwinger (Jun 6, 2021)

JustAGuy1 said:


> Mr Clean said:
> 
> 
> > ChemEngineer said:
> ...


Nixon started the Paris Peace Talks and then tried to bomb our way to better terms

He failed


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## JustAGuy1 (Jun 6, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> JustAGuy1 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



Get over yourself son, We actually got involved under Ike, JFK upped it as did LBJ. Nixon frosted the cake. You ALWAYS want to try and deflect, I won't let you. By the way, I'm not a Pub either.


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## Mr Natural (Jun 6, 2021)

As I recall, Nixon had a secret plan that would be revealed once he was re-elected.


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## JustAGuy1 (Jun 6, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> JustAGuy1 said:
> 
> 
> > Mr Clean said:
> ...



I already said that, do try and keep up.


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## AZrailwhale (Jun 6, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


I lived through it.  When the US pulled out, the North was defeated, Haiphong harbor was blocked by mines, the rail and road links to the PRC were destroyed, North Vietnam wasn't receiving any supplies from the USSR or the PRC anymore. it was out of weapons' and ammo, it's people were nearing starvation, and the Viet Cong were completely destroyed.  The North sued for peace on the US's terms in Paris.  By any objective standards The People's Republic of Vietnam was defeated.


----------



## AZrailwhale (Jun 6, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


The Republic of Vietnam didn't fall to the Viet Cong, it fell to a mechanized invasion force supplied and trained by the Russians.  The Russians provided that force at no cost to the People's Republic of Vietnam and turned the PAVN from a light infantry army designed for a failed guerilla war into a heavy armor and mechanized army designed to invade a peaceful neighbor.  The only that army was able to succeed was that the US congress, led by the anti-war democrats, first cut off all aid to The Republic of Vietnam, then reneged on our treaty obligations to support the South Vietnamese government ion the face of North Vietnamese aggression.  The Viet Cong were destroyed by Tet, their leadership was destroyed and the remains were hated by the very people that had been terrorized into supporting them for years.  The PRVN stopped supporting the Viet Cong after it failed then during Tet so the VC faded away.


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## ChemEngineer (Jun 6, 2021)

Hanoi John Kerry, traitor like Hanoi Jane Fonda, publicly announced "All Vietnam veterans are war criminals."   A liar as always.  He gave aid and comfort to the communists who saw Nixon lose power and planned the invasion in violation of the Paris Peace Accord.
The gutless congress, dominated and controlled by Democrats, cut off the knees of the South, denying them promised military aid and funding.  Finally, Nixon had resigned and was unable to keep his promise to bomb North Vietnam back to the stone age if it violated its Peace Treaty.

Democrats lie to this day that America "lost the war."  No, Democrats gave it all away, cowards that they will always be.  When George Bush sent troops into Afghanistan and Iraq, the usual cowards rose up and smeared America as always.  "Why didn't you take out Saddam, huh, huh, huh!"  Then when Bush Jr. did take out Hussein, they screamed "At least he kept order!"

America is always wrong to hear Democrats as they tear it down.


----------



## Colin norris (Jun 6, 2021)

OKTexas said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Dayton3 said:
> ...





AZrailwhale said:


> Colin norris said:
> 
> 
> > RetiredGySgt said:
> ...



Defeated my foot.  You guys left with your tail between legs like a kicked dog. 55,000 died because the government wanted to flex their muscle against communists and it failed.


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 6, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> OKTexas said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


Wrong. We were winning when I left. I'm alive; they're dead. I win.


----------



## ChemEngineer (Jun 6, 2021)

Thank you Doc.  I trained at Fort Sam Houston as well.  11th Armored Cavalry Regiment, commanded by Colonel George S. Patton, Jr.  I promised when I got back to The World, I would not be like the Silent Majority. You and I don't have to take anybody's shit.


----------



## Colin norris (Jun 6, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> Colin norris said:
> 
> 
> > OKTexas said:
> ...



You keep believing that.  I wouldn't want to be contributing to destroying your lifelong dream. 
BTW I just checked and the communists are still there and surprise, still alive.
You couldn't win a game of cards.


----------



## 9thIDdoc (Jun 6, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> > Colin norris said:
> ...


Really? Name one Communist that came against me and is alive. At least they had the balls to come out to play. You? All talk; no balls.


----------



## rightwinger (Jun 6, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> OKTexas said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


The US negotiated a withdrawal where they wouldn’t attack us while we drawing down our troops.  
That is hardly a victory.

Didn‘t matter if we waited another five years or twenty years, S Vietnam was still going to lose


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## rightwinger (Jun 6, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> Colin norris said:
> 
> 
> > 9thIDdoc said:
> ...


That guy Nguyen is still quite alive


----------



## Dayton3 (Jun 6, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Colin norris said:
> 
> 
> > OKTexas said:
> ...



Why do you say that?


----------



## Dayton3 (Jun 6, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> > Colin norris said:
> ...



Ho Chi Minh is quite dead.     As is North Vietnams military leader.


----------



## rightwinger (Jun 6, 2021)

Dayton3 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Colin norris said:
> ...


S Vietnam was corrupt and inept
They wouldn’t have held out regardless of how long we stayed and how many lives we lost

Same will happen in Afghanistan


----------



## rightwinger (Jun 6, 2021)

Dayton3 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > 9thIDdoc said:
> ...



So is Westmorland and McNamara


----------



## 9thIDdoc (Jun 6, 2021)

ChemEngineer said:


> Thank you Doc.  I trained at Fort Sam Houston as well.  11th Armored Cavalry Regiment, commanded by Colonel George S. Patton, Jr.  I promised when I got back to The World, I would not be like the Silent Majority. You and I don't have to take anybody's shit.


Bns. of the 11th ACR fought beside my Bn, (2/47 Mec.) on day 1 of the Cambodia incursion and following days. Badasses.


----------



## 9thIDdoc (Jun 6, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


They dam sure held out until the US congress betrayed them and us.


----------



## rightwinger (Jun 6, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Dayton3 said:
> ...


Let’s see....
We withdrew and left all of our modern equipment including helicopters and a modern air force 
They didn’t last two years without us doing the fighting


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 6, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> > Colin norris said:
> ...


Then he didn't come against me.


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## rightwinger (Jun 6, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > 9thIDdoc said:
> ...


He says he did


----------



## Colin norris (Jun 6, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



Something is getting overlooked here. We invaded another country to overthrow the political system we didn't like. 
We were beaten at a very high cost. 

Why don't we invade China. They have the same system. Maybe north Korea. 

The perceived easy target wasn't so easy. 
What I hate is how those soldiers who died were portrayed as dying defending the nation and democracy. What a load of crap.


----------



## Dayton3 (Jun 6, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



Americans always use that excuse when a war isn't going the way they think it should.


----------



## Dayton3 (Jun 6, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Dayton3 said:
> ...



The U.S. invaded North Korea to finish off the still existing North Korean Army.


----------



## 9thIDdoc (Jun 6, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Dayton3 said:
> ...


What country are you talking about?
When-since WWII-have we invaded a country for that reason?
When exactly do you claim we were beaten?
You don't get to decide why another person fights, what they die for, or what they believe in. Had I died in Vietnam I would have done so believing I was defending my country as was my duty. I believed that then and believe that now. Who are you to claim differently? You have no clue what is necessary to defend this Country. You just like to run your mouth about things you cannot comprehend. It would be better for you to avoid slandering American boys who die for us all.


----------



## Colin norris (Jun 6, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> Colin norris said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



They are very febrile justifications.  
You invaded a country that showed no aggression towards America. 
It's impossible to suggest you were defending the country.  That's military propaganda to bolster justification for massive deaths for no reason. 

I'm not slandering anyone.  It's a fact and still is even if it's uncomfortable for you to accept. 
So tell me what is necessary to defend the country when the VC never attacked America? You invaded their country because Republican governments wanted to suppress those evil communists.  America was resoundingly beaten. The casualties were breathtaking and the VC were still willing and able to continue.  People  were demonstrating at home against a testosterone filled folly destined for failure and it did. 

So spin it all You like,  it's a fact. 

Would you like to start on Iraq and how GWB told you all he  was giving them freedom?


----------



## Dayton3 (Jun 6, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> > Colin norris said:
> ...


Any communist government anywhere in the world during the Cold War was a threat to the United States and we were fully justified in moving against them.


----------



## Polishprince (Jun 6, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> > Colin norris said:
> ...




Like the Germans and Japanese in the 1940's, the Communist Party was on a mission of World Conquest, including the VietCong.

As part of their operation, the Communist North Vietnamese sought to exterminate and conquer the peaceful South Vietnamese people.

The US government determined it was a good place to stop the Communists, so that's where the battle was fought.


----------



## Colin norris (Jun 6, 2021)

Polishprince said:


> Colin norris said:
> 
> 
> > 9thIDdoc said:
> ...



You can believe what you want. America invaded the country for no reason other than attempt to stop communism.  It failed miserably and were beaten resoundingly accumulating thousands of unnecessary deaths.  US elections were also a part as the government had everyone fearful of a communist takeover in DC. It still lingers today. 

You invaded a nation and no justification can change that.


----------



## OKTexas (Jun 6, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> OKTexas said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...




So you're another fucking foreigner?

.


----------



## Polishprince (Jun 6, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> Polishprince said:
> 
> 
> > Colin norris said:
> ...



On this date in history, in 1944, America invaded France for no other reason than because we were intent on stopping national Socialism.

Thousands died in that effort as well.

Its true that America wasn't successful in the Vietnam excursion as opposed to the French effort.

But in both cases, there was no direct attack on America, but it was done to stymie efforts of totalitarians pieces of shit from achieving world conquest.


----------



## Colin norris (Jun 6, 2021)

Polishprince said:


> Colin norris said:
> 
> 
> > Polishprince said:
> ...



I agree entirely with you but to invade another country is never appropriate. 
The Americans had allies then all for the common cause. 
Good talking. Cheers.


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## Polishprince (Jun 6, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> Polishprince said:
> 
> 
> > Colin norris said:
> ...



America had allies in Vietnam as well, you know.


----------



## Papageorgio (Jun 6, 2021)

Polishprince said:


> Colin norris said:
> 
> 
> > Polishprince said:
> ...


We know that Collin was rooting against us, a great reason we should not have fought Germany in WWII.


----------



## Colin norris (Jun 6, 2021)

Papageorgio said:


> Polishprince said:
> 
> 
> > Colin norris said:
> ...



That's like saying democrats hate America.  You don't like the truth and you know it. It's a fact and the government has conned you since then. 
Shut up you silly fool.


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Jun 6, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> Papageorgio said:
> 
> 
> > Polishprince said:
> ...


you can not change the fact that democrats sold out the South and enabled the North to invade.


----------



## Papageorgio (Jun 7, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> Papageorgio said:
> 
> 
> > Polishprince said:
> ...


Fuck off nut job. Democrats are just a patriotic as Republicans, they just have a different view on how to get from A to B. You root against us. All your posts are critical of my country. You are not our friend.


----------



## themirrorthief (Jun 7, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> White 6 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


democrats lied then and they lie now...LBJ god awrful horrible excuse for a president


----------



## Rigby5 (Jun 7, 2021)

White 6 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Jane Fonda was right about her objection to the war
> ...



YES YOU DO!!!!
The only way to save the lives of those US troops is to expose the Pentagon as the real enemy.
Anyone again Fonda was guilty of causing the murder not only of innocent Vietnamese, but of US GIs as well.
Ho Chi Minh was the hero of all Vietnam, for defeating the French and liberating the country.
Violating the peace accord between France and Vietnam by getting Diem to depose Bau Dai was one of the worst crimes in history.
Jane not only did the right thing, but she gained nothing by it and it was one of the most selfless acts of the century.


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## Rigby5 (Jun 7, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> Colin norris said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



Sorry, but that is really silly.
Vietnam was not attacking us, but we illegally prevented elections and supported dictators like Diem preventing democracy in Vietnam.
We murdered almost 3 million innocent Vietnamese.

And yes we were beaten in 1975 when Nixon gave up and removed all US troops from Vietnam.

But why we were beaten is more important.
Which is that the Vietnamese were fighting for freedom, and we were only fighting to war profit contracts.


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## Rigby5 (Jun 7, 2021)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Colin norris said:
> 
> 
> > Papageorgio said:
> ...



Wrong.
ALL of Vietnam loved Ho Chi Minh as the hero who defeated the French and liberated the country.
There was no south or north.
All of Vietnam supported Ho Chi Minh.

We instead supported Diem in preventing democracy and establishing an evil dictatorship.


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## Colin norris (Jun 7, 2021)

Papageorgio said:


> Colin norris said:
> 
> 
> > Papageorgio said:
> ...



You don't know who I am. 
Don't give me that United front crap when it is common knowledge repubmicand hate democrats because you ignorantly associate them with communism. What a load of crap. 
I'm not critical.  I'm simply telling the truth  which you never seen to mention but gloss over it continuously. 
You're the type of hate filled Republican no one would want as s friend.  You don't care about anyone but yourself. You don't care about the underprivileged or blacks. 
You couldn't care if democrats were eliminated.  Yet you think I should be a friend of that shit. 
So YOU fuck off you brain dead ignorant fool. I won t be taking my instructions from you boy.  You don't frighten me with your rubbish.


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## RetiredGySgt (Jun 7, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> > Colin norris said:
> ...


we removed all but advisors by 1972.


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## Rigby5 (Jun 7, 2021)

Polishprince said:


> Colin norris said:
> 
> 
> > 9thIDdoc said:
> ...



That is silly.
The Germans fought in WWII because the Allies in WWI started the war by assassinating Archduke Ferdinand and his wife, won the war by illegally starving the civilian population, and they robbed the Germans blind in the disgusting Treaty of Versailles.
The Japanese fought for similar reasons, in that we illegally were embargoing oil, iron, coal, etc.

There is no such thing as "South Vietnamese People".
All of Vietnam supported Ho Chi Minh, as the hero who liberated the country from the French.
There was no communist threat, and the only threat was the US Military Industrial Complex.


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## RetiredGySgt (Jun 7, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Polishprince said:
> 
> 
> > Colin norris said:
> ...


LOL another moron that wants to ignore historical facts. Explain EXACTLY how refusing to sell to Japan was illegal, be specific now and explain how who we decide to sell to is determined by any law.


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## Rigby5 (Jun 7, 2021)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Rigby5 said:
> 
> 
> > Polishprince said:
> ...



Any embargo is illegal because no government has any legal authority to dictate who gets to sell what to whom, but the embargo of oil, iron, and coal to Japan was even more illegal then usual because it was Indonesia, the Philippines, and other countries that we were preventing from selling to Japan.


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## Rigby5 (Jun 7, 2021)

Polishprince said:


> Colin norris said:
> 
> 
> > Polishprince said:
> ...



Actually no.  All of Vietnam considered Ho Chi Minh a hero.
The only allies we had on Vietnam were those who had collaborated with the Japanese or French, and did not want to get punished for it.


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## Papageorgio (Jun 7, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> Papageorgio said:
> 
> 
> > Colin norris said:
> ...


It’s obvious you don’t know me! I don’t hate Republicans or Democrats, why is that such a hard concept for you? I believe the two party system in the United States is our biggest weakness. I am neither a member of the Democratic Party or the Republican Party, neother has Americans best interests at heart. You are an idiot and keep proving it. If you hate me and don’t value my opinion put me on ignore, moron! No loss on my part.


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## RetiredGySgt (Jun 7, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > Rigby5 said:
> ...


A Government has the authority to declare an embargo as a matter of fact the Constitution gives to the federal Government control of any commerce between states and nations. Further the PURPOSE of the embargo was to get JAPAN to stop its war in China. There is no law that requires the US or her possessions to support a foreign Government at war with an ally of this Country.


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## Colin norris (Jun 7, 2021)

Papageorgio said:


> Colin norris said:
> 
> 
> > Papageorgio said:
> ...



You're a republican to the bootstraps and you know it. I don't hate you. I'm simply pointing out the bullshit you believe as facts. 
I've never seen your opinion. It's all Republican propaganda. 
I won't be blocking anyone.  While ever people making ridiculous you'll see me correcting them. So if you don't like it, don't tell lies. As you said, is that such a hard concept for you.


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 7, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > Colin norris said:
> ...


If you knew anything about history you would lie about it. All you know and repeat is the Communist line. Save it. Anybody with an actual interest in those times knows better.


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## Papageorgio (Jun 7, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> Papageorgio said:
> 
> 
> > Colin norris said:
> ...


Believe what you need to believe, makes no difference to me.


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## Colin norris (Jun 7, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> Papageorgio said:
> 
> 
> > Colin norris said:
> ...


Papageorgio
Is that the best you've got? 
Itsvnothing to laugh at son. You should be highly embarrassed about how you have been conned.


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## ChemEngineer (Jun 7, 2021)

Papageorgio said:


> Colin norris said:
> 
> 
> > That's like saying democrats hate America.  You don't like the truth and you know it. It's a fact and the government has conned you since then.
> ...



Democrats DO hate America. 
1.  They continually lie about our history, badmouthing America relentlessly.
"I've never been proud of America." - Michelle Obama
"America is not a Christian nation." - Barack Obama, who bowed down to the King of Saudi Arabia

2.  The 1619 bullshit condemns American youth to brainwashing and socialism of the worst kind.

3.  Democrats are NOT as patriotic as Republicans.   Democrats have long been critical of America's armed forces.  It's well established but Democrats lie about everything.

4.  The worst anti-Americans are Leftists in academia, who teach socialism, victocrat mentality,
divisiveness, and ignorance.





__





						Loading…
					





					DemocratInsanity.blogpspot.com
				









						BarackObamaisms
					






					BarackObamaisms.blogspot.com
				












						(no title)
					






					TheEducationFraud.wordpress.com


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## ChemEngineer (Jun 7, 2021)

themirrorthief said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > White 6 said:
> ...



Lies are all they know.  They're so anti-science they don't know male from female, and many of them are so afraid of women that they shack up with hundreds of strange men.  Take Obama please.


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## Polishprince (Jun 7, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Polishprince said:
> 
> 
> > Colin norris said:
> ...




There is no way to know that "all Vietnam" supported Ho Minh at all.  North Vietnam is a dictatorship with no free elections.   Just because the dictator Minh and his goons said they were supported by the people doesn't mean they were, they were too cowardly to have free elections so we can not know.   All I know is that the abuse that the communists gave to Americans including John McCain was uncalled for and very anti-vietnamese.   The Vietnamese people I know are very polite, and McCain wasn't treated with proper decorum for a war hero.


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## Dayton3 (Jun 7, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> Polishprince said:
> 
> 
> > Colin norris said:
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Why not?


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## Dayton3 (Jun 7, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> > Colin norris said:
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Quite a trick given that Nixon wasn't in office in 1975. 

And please explain how U.S. companies "profited" from the Vietnam War.


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## White 6 (Jun 7, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> White 6 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


Why, Hello, Jane!  You awful unpatriotic old whore.


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## rightwinger (Jun 7, 2021)

Dayton3 said:


> And please explain how U.S. companies "profited" from the Vietnam War.


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## Mr Natural (Jun 7, 2021)

Dayton3 said:


> And please explain how U.S. companies "profited" from the Vietnam War.


You think all those bombs were free?


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## Papageorgio (Jun 7, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> Colin norris said:
> 
> 
> > Papageorgio said:
> ...


Troll on nutter, that is all you have.


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## Dayton3 (Jun 7, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
> 
> > And please explain how U.S. companies "profited" from the Vietnam War.



Ignorant post on your part.


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## Dayton3 (Jun 7, 2021)

Mr Clean said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
> 
> > And please explain how US. companies "profited" from the Vietnam War.
> ...



Actually a substantial number of the bombs the U.S. used in the Vietnam War were left over from World War Two.     That was one of the factors that led to the explosion and fire on the U.S.S. Forestall.


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## rightwinger (Jun 7, 2021)

Dayton3 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Dayton3 said:
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Your comment on Vietnam profit was laughable


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## Dayton3 (Jun 7, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



I don't just take what people  "assume" to be he truth as in fact the "truth". 

If it can't be proven then at best it must be questionable.


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## rightwinger (Jun 7, 2021)

Dayton3 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Dayton3 said:
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Damn....You Goofy
You dont think war profits can be proven?

Sorry, but not engaging in your silliness


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## Dayton3 (Jun 7, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



I was referring to EXCESSIVE war profits. 

If those are that easy to prove then you actually offering such proof should be easy shouldn't it?


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## rightwinger (Jun 7, 2021)

Dayton3 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Dayton3 said:
> ...



Sorry, not taking your bait


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## Papageorgio (Jun 7, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


Without facts I'd be hesitant to discuss anything with Dayton as well, he'll roll you, you are more of a troller.


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## rightwinger (Jun 7, 2021)

Papageorgio said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Dayton3 said:
> ...


He is not in my league


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## Papageorgio (Jun 7, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Papageorgio said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


True, you are in a class all to yourself. I do enjoy our interactions.


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## DudleySmith (Jun 7, 2021)

OKTexas said:


> DudleySmith said:
> 
> 
> > OKTexas said:
> ...



Nah. Nixon wanted out. Johnson had no say any more after 1968. When your generals and intelligence agencies are caught blatantly lying to you for years, it is they who need to be shot, not you.


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## rightwinger (Jun 7, 2021)

DudleySmith said:


> When your generals and intelligence agencies are caught blatantly lying to you for years, it is they who need to be shot, not you.


Conservatives want to shoot Jane Fonda


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## DudleySmith (Jun 7, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> JustAGuy1 said:
> 
> 
> > Mr Clean said:
> ...







__





						President Johnson announced his decision to halt the bombing of North Vietnam. - LBJ Presidential Library
					

President Johnson announced his decision to halt the bombing of North Vietnam.



					www.lbjlibrary.org
				




You don't even know the basics. The faux 'Peace Left' sabotaged any peace agreements, and they also started supporting Arab terrorists before that, all at the beck and call of communist propagandists operating in the U.S. media and on college campuses. You  fake 'peace activists' were busy trying to get as many people killed as possible. You took your marching orders from European commies. Here is one essay on the rise of verminhood.






						Being Leftist and Anti-Semitic in Germany - Susanne Urban
					

Being Leftist and Anti-Semitic in Germany - Susanne Urban



					www.jcpa.org
				




Student Radicalization​
*During the Six Day War, the New Left definitively transformed its hitherto moderate pro-Arab positions into full support for Arab states and the Palestinians, and its fragile pro-Israeli attitudes dissolved into anti-Semitic slogans thinly disguised as "anti-imperialist" criticism of a "fascist state."


After 1967, however, not only the radicals but large parts of the German Left turned their backs on Israel. This went hand in hand with protests against the Vietnam War, against the conservative mainstream in Adenauer's Germany and afterward the "Great Coalition" that was headed from 1966 by Chancellor Kurt Georg Kiesinger, a former member of the Nazi Party.6 The New Left also idealized Communist China and Ho Chi Minh, despite their involvement in mass murder against their own people.7


Well-known intellectuals who were more moderate leftists tried to dissuade the New Left from its extreme positions. Ernst Bloch, Jean Amery, Herbert Marcuse, Iring Fetscher, and Jean-Paul Sartre argued with the radicals and discouraged blind solidarity with the PLO, as opposed to legitimate criticism of Israeli policies. They warned that notions of Israel's annihilation were intolerable and linked to National Socialist ideology. However, they were not heeded by the radicals.8*

You're just dumbass tools, and either don't care or are too stupid to know it.


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## DudleySmith (Jun 7, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> DudleySmith said:
> 
> 
> > When your generals and intelligence agencies are caught blatantly lying to you for years, it is they who need to be shot, not you.
> ...



I don't know many vets who cared what she did one way or the other; many in fact attended the anti-war road shows in Japan when they came through.


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## rightwinger (Jun 7, 2021)

DudleySmith said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > JustAGuy1 said:
> ...


You Goofy


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## Dayton3 (Jun 7, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Papageorgio said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



You're right.    I haven't competed in the kiddie league in decades.


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## OKTexas (Jun 7, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> DudleySmith said:
> 
> 
> > When your generals and intelligence agencies are caught blatantly lying to you for years, it is they who need to be shot, not you.
> ...




Actually she should have been charged with treason, for providing aid and comfort to our enemies. And shot only after conviction.

.


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## rightwinger (Jun 7, 2021)

OKTexas said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > DudleySmith said:
> ...


The Treason was from those war hawks who mislead the nation on the threat of Vietnam and lied about our prospects in the war.
Led to almost 60,000deaths 

Jane Fonda never killed anyone


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## Dayton3 (Jun 7, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> OKTexas said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



you don't have to kill someone to be guilty of treason.  

And can you point out precisely what lies were told about the "threat of Vietnam" and "our prospects on the war"?


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## Papageorgio (Jun 7, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> OKTexas said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


The Charlie Manson defense.


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## yidnar (Jun 7, 2021)

White 6 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Jane Fonda was right about her objection to the war
> ...


my dad was in Nam ...and he talked about how Fonda hurt the troops ...he also talked about democrats [the party you voted for ] spitting on them and calling them baby killers when they returned home .


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## White 6 (Jun 7, 2021)

yidnar said:


> White 6 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


Did he talk about them holding up Democrat signs, or did he just talk to enough of them individually to know they were democrats (the main party that carried on the war) until Republican Richard Nixon got us out of it?


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## JustAGuy1 (Jun 7, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> OKTexas said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



The War could have easily ben won but the Politicians purposefully prolonged it. Mcnamara came up with the "Rules of Engagement" plan and that is what cost us that War. It's also what caused to staggering losses and prolonged conflicts since. Yup, Bush and Rump kep that strategy in place.

Here is some goo reading





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					media.defense.gov


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## rightwinger (Jun 7, 2021)

yidnar said:


> he also talked about democrats [the party you voted for ] spitting on them and calling them baby killers when they returned home .



One of those lasting Vietnam myths that assumes our soldiers were meek enough to allow hippies to spit on them


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## White 6 (Jun 7, 2021)

JustAGuy1 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > OKTexas said:
> ...


Hard to say whether it could have been won. I do agree, if you are going to fight a war, everything should be on the table.


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 7, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> DudleySmith said:
> 
> 
> > When your generals and intelligence agencies are caught blatantly lying to you for years, it is they who need to be shot, not you.
> ...





rightwinger said:


> DudleySmith said:
> 
> 
> > When your generals and intelligence agencies are caught blatantly lying to you for years, it is they who need to be shot, not you.
> ...


Congratulations on your amazing insight. But she needs to take her BFF Kerry with her so she won't be lonely in Hell.


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## rightwinger (Jun 7, 2021)

White 6 said:


> Hard to say whether it could have been won. I do agree, if you are going to fight a war, everything should be on the table.



Nukes?
Chemical weapons?
Biological weapons?


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 7, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> yidnar said:
> 
> 
> > he also talked about democrats [the party you voted for ] spitting on them and calling them baby killers when they returned home .
> ...


Bullshit. We had orders not to react to the spitting, or the thrown dog shit, or the profanity and vile verbal abuse. We were directed not to wear our uniforms off duty. When the odds are 100 to I against you it acts as an aid in restraining yourself. And that was added to the threat of punishment for disobeying orders. Wild animals can be brave and vicious when massed in large packs. And so it was with the anti-American hippies.


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## rightwinger (Jun 7, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > yidnar said:
> ...


Interesting how there were no contemporary news stories of returning vets being spat upon. It would have received high visibility and Americans would have been outraged.

Ten years later when Rambo came out and there was a reference to being spat upon, it became part of the collective memory of vets. I know a guy....


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## White 6 (Jun 7, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> White 6 said:
> 
> 
> > Hard to say whether it could have been won. I do agree, if you are going to fight a war, everything should be on the table.
> ...


Not big on chemical or biologic weapons, though NBC trained.  I was a cold warrior.  Always knew if the Soviets came through the Fulda, we would probably do a first use of tactical Nukes.  I figured within the first 72 hours, as we would be horribly outnumbered by armored tanks.  The projected numbers during the first 24, 36 and 48 hours were just God awful. Not sure what the tactical or strategic goal would have been in the Vietnam War for use of nuclear weapons, as I did not study it.  I favored carpet bombing the dykes above Hanoi and elsewhere to starve them, as well has Hanoi itself, early as a strategic targets, but not necessarily with nukes. War sucks, totally, but if you are going to do it, do it.  If you can get it over with, get it over.  You can probably save on total lives lost on both sides.


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 7, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> White 6 said:
> 
> 
> > Hard to say whether it could have been won. I do agree, if you are going to fight a war, everything should be on the table.
> ...


Nice but unnecessary. All we really needed was for the dumbass politicians to shut up and stop trying to micro-manage the war from halfway around the world. The politicians kept us on a tight leash and were convinced they were military geniuses and true badasses as long as they were at least a thousand miles from the sound of guns. Many of them were not on our side and never were.


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## rightwinger (Jun 7, 2021)

White 6 said:


> Not sure what the tactical or strategic goal would have been in the Vietnam War for use of nuclear weapons, as I did not study it. I favored carpet bombing the dykes above Hanoi and elsewhere to starve them, as well has Hanoi itself, early as a strategic targets,


It is often asked why we didn’t invade the North and just kick the shit out of them.  
Sounds good on paper but we have to look at what happened when we invaded N Korea and kicked the shit out of them?
China came in and a simple war became a quagmire with massive casualties.

We did not want to repeat the mistake and were content to bomb the crap out of them. Didn’t lead to victory, but killed a lot of people


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## rightwinger (Jun 7, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > White 6 said:
> ...


How do you propose we should have “won” the war?
What do you consider a victory


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## White 6 (Jun 7, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > yidnar said:
> ...


My brother came back through California.  He did not mention seeing it.  I do not know if it happened or not.


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 7, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


Damn lie. There was lots of news coverage that showed in American living rooms every evening. Newspapers and magazines. A ton of first hand accounts including on here and from me. I have posted video on this site of a veteran of the fighting in the Mid East being spit on by your commie buddies. Just because you absolutely refuse to look at or read anything that doesn't match the propaganda supporting your master's agenda doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You've been contradicted many times on this site and you just refuse to acknowledge you have even heard such a thing. It is obvious that it is your agenda to re-write history; not remember or discuss it.


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## yidnar (Jun 7, 2021)

White 6 said:


> yidnar said:
> 
> 
> > White 6 said:
> ...


they were far left hippies idiot ! they grew up to become todays democrats ! dont you dare try to lie and cover for the left punk !


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## ChemEngineer (Jun 7, 2021)

yidnar said:


> White 6 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



"So, how many babies did YOU kill?" was their smartass treachery before Democrats lied through their teeth to get Supreme Court approval to.... kill unborn babies by the scores of millions. 

How amusing that Chinese women have had millions of female unborn babies aborted, their "choice," to the bitter consternation of pro-abortion women in the Former United States of America.  They call Chinese choice "barbaric," without flinching about their own vile murders.


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## yidnar (Jun 7, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > 9thIDdoc said:
> ...


white bitch is a weakling and a liar !


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## yidnar (Jun 7, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > 9thIDdoc said:
> ...


White Bitch is a disgrace .


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 7, 2021)

White 6 said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


I was stationed in San Francisco for a a little over a year '68-'69 and witnessed and experienced every atrocity you have heard rumored and some you probably haven't. If People don't know what happened it's because they don't want to.


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 7, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


More lies.
The vast majority of civilians killed were killed by the Communists who really didn't care if the South Vietnamese became communist or died. They were there to take the land, wealth, and resources. They just considered the people a problem to be dealt with in the most expeditious manner possible. 

*We were told millions of civilians would be tortured and killed if the Communists won...didn’t happen*
What part of "Yes it did." Do you not understand?


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## Colin norris (Jun 7, 2021)

Papageorgio said:


> Colin norris said:
> 
> 
> > Colin norris said:
> ...



Now I know you are beaten. When your opponents call you a troll and diagnose your intellectual capacity, they are out if ammo. 

So big mouth, get some facts before you blurt more of your brain farts.


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## rightwinger (Jun 7, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> *We were told millions of civilians would be tortured and killed if the Communists won...didn’t happen*
> What part of "Yes it did." Do you not understand?


Fair enough

Show me the reports of millions of civilians being killed by the N Vietnamese after 1975


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## rightwinger (Jun 7, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > 9thIDdoc said:
> ...


More phantom reports of spitting

Those who actually looked found no contemporary reports of ....Our boys are being spat on when they get home. It would have been national news...it wasn’t 
What was found that when you examine Pre-Rambo reports and Post-Rambo reports of coming home, it is the Post-Rambo reports that contain spitting.  

There were contemporary reports of Vietnam protestors being roughed up and spat upon. To which most people replied.....Good


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## White 6 (Jun 7, 2021)

yidnar said:


> White 6 said:
> 
> 
> > yidnar said:
> ...


Don't be a dumb ass. It ended 40 years ago or more.  Those "hippies" are late 60s and older, same as me.  All their rowdy friends have rowdied on down.  If they were draft age or collage age then, they are mostly in their 70s now or older.  They are not causing you or me any problems at this stage of the game.  It was a different time back then.  I was 1-A with a lottery number of 42.  I knew where I was going until week before high school graduation, when Nixon quit drafting.  It certainly didn't enter my mind to volunteer for the trip.  
It's the ones in their 20s, 30, 40s and maybe 50s you have a grievance with, if you have one.  Look at the riots last year.  Was it old geezers out in force in the streets, busting glass, kicking ass and taking over parts of left coast cities and pillaging stores?  I don't think so.  If you are my age, you should have gotten a life, a long time ago.  If you are still a youngin', you really ought to think about getting one.


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## Desperado (Jun 7, 2021)

OKTexas said:


> Desperado said:
> 
> 
> > OKTexas said:
> ...


Actually we gave the military a blank check ad called it "Shock and Awe" and how did that work out for you,  Not very good it appears since we are still there.


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 7, 2021)

*Insurection part 1*


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## Dayton3 (Jun 7, 2021)

Desperado said:


> OKTexas said:
> 
> 
> > Desperado said:
> ...



Still being in a country where we fought a war does not mean we lost.    In fact it can mean we won.    As we're still in Germany,  Italy, and Japan


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 7, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


I have refuted your bullshit several times in the past and once again given you a contemporary report. As usual you hear nothing but stale communist propaganda.


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Jun 7, 2021)

OKTexas said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > DudleySmith said:
> ...


The problem was that there was no declared war, so who knew who the enemy really was.


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## Dayton3 (Jun 7, 2021)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> OKTexas said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


Nations don't "declare war" anymore.     IIRC only two have been "declared" around the globe since World War Two.


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Jun 7, 2021)

Dayton3 said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> > OKTexas said:
> ...



Sorry to burst your bubble, but no declared war equals no treason.


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## OKTexas (Jun 8, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> OKTexas said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...




At least you're consistent, always pushing the commie propaganda. You and Hanoi jane, peas in a pod.

.


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## OKTexas (Jun 8, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...




Not really, I never had that problem. But I've heard some say they did. I think the problem was worse 65-69.

.


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## Kat (Jun 8, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...





*Need a link* rightwinger


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## DudleySmith (Jun 8, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> DudleySmith said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



Don't cry when you shoot your own self in the foot, dumbass; any simple search could prove your blatant ignorance is glaring; quit relying on ideological rubbish from left wing spam  for your 'facts' and things get a lot easier. The same goes for right wing ideologues as well.


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## OKTexas (Jun 8, 2021)

Desperado said:


> OKTexas said:
> 
> 
> > Desperado said:
> ...




You've obviously have never been on a two way rifle range. So you can shove your worthless opinions.

.


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## OKTexas (Jun 8, 2021)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> OKTexas said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...




When congress authorizes military action to defeat an enemy, it's a declaration of war, regardless of the wording.

.


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## PredFan (Jun 8, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> PredFan said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


Lol, Snopes. I believe the ex POWs before I’ll believe you or those liberal assholes.


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## rightwinger (Jun 8, 2021)

PredFan said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > PredFan said:
> ...


Snopes provides their sources
Haven‘t seen anything but rumors from you


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## Desperado (Jun 8, 2021)

OKTexas said:


> Desperado said:
> 
> 
> > OKTexas said:
> ...


If you were dumb enough to end up on a two way rifle range. you are not in any position to call anyone's else's opinion "worthless


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Jun 8, 2021)

OKTexas said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> > OKTexas said:
> ...


So, how many trials for treason have taken place under that authorization?


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## Dayton3 (Jun 8, 2021)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> OKTexas said:
> 
> 
> > Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> ...


The U.S.  very seldom  tries anyone for treason any more.


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## RetiredGySgt (Jun 8, 2021)

We were not at war with the Soviet Union when the treason trial was held for that couple that spied for them in the 50's.


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## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Jun 8, 2021)

Dayton3 said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> > OKTexas said:
> ...



I told you why, dumbass!


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## Hugo Furst (Jun 8, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> yidnar said:
> 
> 
> > he also talked about democrats [the party you voted for ] spitting on them and calling them baby killers when they returned home .
> ...



Not a myth, asshole.


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## OKTexas (Jun 8, 2021)

Desperado said:


> OKTexas said:
> 
> 
> > Desperado said:
> ...




Wow, a commie that actually comes out and says what they think of Veterans of Americas wars. There's nothing surprising in your statement, it's just surprising you'd say out loud.

.


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## OKTexas (Jun 8, 2021)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> OKTexas said:
> 
> 
> > Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> ...




The disgrace is how many could have and weren't. Many have been convicted under other laws when their actions were treasonous. For example convictions for providing material support for terrorist that we're fighting overseas.

.


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## rightwinger (Jun 8, 2021)

WillHaftawaite said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > yidnar said:
> ...


You think our soldiers are meek?


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## Hugo Furst (Jun 8, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> WillHaftawaite said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



I think you are an asshole, that you ignore the evidence presented because it disproves your biased OPINION. 

I don't think you have a clue as to what it took those men assaulted to keep walking, so they could continue their journeys, instead of being arrested, and either paying a fine, or being incarcerated.


I also think you should get on your hands and knees to thank those that did what you didn't have the nerve, or guts, to do.

are you starting to get an opinion of how low I think you are for attacking veterans?


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## rightwinger (Jun 8, 2021)

WillHaftawaite said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > WillHaftawaite said:
> ...


According to the Urban Legend ......
Our trained killer soldiers came home and dirty, stinking, draft-dodging hippies spat on them and not a one struck back

You think a jury would convict a soldier who beat the snot out of a hippie for spitting on him?


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## Hugo Furst (Jun 8, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> WillHaftawaite said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...





rightwinger said:


> You think a jury would convict a soldier who beat the snot out of a hippie for spitting on him?


You think soldier on his way home would want to take the chance of a conviction, or even a fine?

Delay his trip by even an hour while waiting for the cops?

are you seriously that STUPID?


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## rightwinger (Jun 8, 2021)

WillHaftawaite said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > WillHaftawaite said:
> ...



If some hippie spat on him?
You bet your ass

Ask any Marine today how he would react to someone spitting on him


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## Hugo Furst (Jun 8, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> WillHaftawaite said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



You take stupid to a new level.


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## rightwinger (Jun 8, 2021)

WillHaftawaite said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > WillHaftawaite said:
> ...


I will accept that as a victory

You is STOOPID is a concession of defeat


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## Hugo Furst (Jun 8, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> WillHaftawaite said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



Bud...

you can take it anyway you want.

You lost the first time you made the claim.

Links have been posted PROVING  you are wrong, and your reaction is .

Don't bother responding.


there is only so much stupidity I can handle in a day.

and you passed my limit for the month.


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## Rigby5 (Jun 8, 2021)

RetiredGySgt said:


> A Government has the authority to declare an embargo as a matter of fact the Constitution gives to the federal Government control of any commerce between states and nations. Further the PURPOSE of the embargo was to get JAPAN to stop its war in China. There is no law that requires the US or her possessions to support a foreign Government at war with an ally of this Country.



No.
The 1st amendment prohibits the federal government from forcing its political beliefs on any one.
It also violates the 4th and 5th amendments because it takes property from you without due compensation.
Regulating interstate commerce means preventing restrictions, not adding them.
There is no legal means by which the beliefs and values of the executive branch can be imposed upon individuals within the country.
It can be equally argued that Japan was right to support the monarchy in China.
That is a personal opinion the president and congress do not have the authority to dictate to us over.


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## Rigby5 (Jun 8, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> If you knew anything about history you would lie about it. All you know and repeat is the Communist line. Save it. Anybody with an actual interest in those times knows better.



No, it was the US that screwed up and made the Vietnamese hate us.
We deliberately brought the French back into power in Vietnam, after the Vietnamese had been fighting both the French and the Japanese.
We betrayed them.
And when they beat the French, our legal ability to get involved ended.
The French and Vietnamese conducted an internationally approved treaty we were obligated to respect.
It called for a nation wide plebiscite in 1955.
We illegally prevented that by supporting Diem taking over and kicking out the legal leader of the south, Bau Dai.
We prevented elections.
We were anti democratic.





__





						President Dwight D. Eisenhower on the likelihood that Ho Chi Minh would win a national election in Vietnam in 1955
					





					www.mtholyoke.edu
				




{... It was generally conceded that had an election been held, Ho Chi Minh would have been elected Premier.  ...}

For better or worse, we had  no right to interfere, and US military operation in Vietnam were entirely illegal.


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## Rigby5 (Jun 8, 2021)

Polishprince said:


> Rigby5 said:
> 
> 
> > Polishprince said:
> ...



Wrong.
International observers had full access to both countries, so we knew exactly what public sentiments were.

John McCain was treated much better than he should have been, since he was illegally attacking civilian targets in a country he had no right to even be in.
McCain and everyone who fought in Vietnam were not just POWs, but War Criminals.
Dropping loads of explosives from the safety of a plane, on civilian industries, was not legal.

And again, do you argue against Eisenhower?





__





						President Dwight D. Eisenhower on the likelihood that Ho Chi Minh would win a national election in Vietnam in 1955
					





					www.mtholyoke.edu
				




{...  It was generally conceded that had an election been held, Ho Chi Minh would have been elected Premier.  ...}


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## Rigby5 (Jun 8, 2021)

Dayton3 said:


> Quite a trick given that Nixon wasn't in office in 1975.
> 
> And please explain how U.S. companies "profited" from the Vietnam War.



Yes, I was going from memory, and it was 1973, not 1975.

As to how US companies profited from any war, it was the Military Industrial Complex Eisenhower warned us against.
To raise taxes and no have complaints, you have to scare people.
Wars are scary.
So then you prevent there is a threat, start a war, raise taxes to pay for it, and then spend huge amounts on munitions that otherwise no one would want.
This allows vast profits to those selling those munitions.

This is not new or just the US.
If you look at the companies selling munitions to Hitler, like Krupp, you see they made out like bandits.
Losing the war changed nothing.
They still made a bundle of profits.


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## RetiredGySgt (Jun 8, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Polishprince said:
> 
> 
> > Rigby5 said:
> ...


LOL so what were the NV troops pretending to be insurgents status?


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## Rigby5 (Jun 8, 2021)

White 6 said:


> Rigby5 said:
> 
> 
> > White 6 said:
> ...



Nope.
Jane was right and she will always be a hero because she not only told the truth, but knew it would cost her.
She never gained a thing from it, but save tens of thousands of lives.
The Vietnamese were never going to give up, so what do you think would have happened to all those US POWs if the war went on 5, 10, or 20 more years?

Face facts, the war in Vietnam was never legal or winnable.
Anyone doing anything to end it sooner should be praised.


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## Rigby5 (Jun 8, 2021)

WillHaftawaite said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > WillHaftawaite said:
> ...



No other war had such organized resistance as Vietnam.
That VVAW, *Vietnam Veterans Against the War* (*VVAW*), was a huge percentage of the protestors against the war.

{...
The fluctuating membership size has had varied estimates. The organization remained small until late 1969 when it gained several hundred new members.[4] With the Nixon administration's decision to invade Cambodia and the Kent State shootings in 1970, VVAW's visibility increased, and they attracted new members, increasing from 1,500 to almost 5,000.[5]

Membership passed 8,500 by January 1971, and thousands more flocked to the organization after _Playboy Magazine_ donated a full-page VVAW ad in its February edition.[6] The national televised coverage of VVAW's week-long April 1971 protest in Washington, D.C., and smaller protests in subsequent months brought attention.

A Federal Bureau of Investigation informant within the organization noted in March 1971 that membership had grown from 1,500 to over 12,000 in the past four months.[7] An article in _Ramparts,_ that year said VVAW had at that time approximately 11,000 members and employed 26 regional coordinators.[2]

Higher estimates exist, including a claim of 20,000 members for 1971.[8] The organization has claimed a peak membership of over 30,000.[3] Counting non-veteran supporters, VVAW had "roughly 50,000" members.[9]

By 1972, negotiations at the Paris peace talks were in full swing, signaling the beginning of the end of the war, meaning the end of VVAW's primary mission. Membership in the organization declined, and the leadership began to consider broader purposes to support veterans. Membership requirements were relaxed, and political differences arose as new members fought with old about direction. By 1973 VVAW had several thousand members.[10] With internal struggles still threatening the group, 2,000 members demonstrated in Washington DC in July 1974, demanding universal amnesty for draft resisters and deserters, and universal discharge with benefits for all Vietnam veterans.[11]

Historian Andrew E. Hunt concluded, "Detractors have always cited numbers when criticizing VVAW. At the pinnacle of VVAW's success in 1972, membership rolls listed almost 25,000 card carriers, or fewer than 1 percent of all eligible Vietnam era veterans. ... By emphasizing the low percentage of Vietnam veterans who paid dues to VVAW, opponents have sought to dismiss the significance and impact of the organization."[12]
...}








						Vietnam Veterans Against the War - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## Hugo Furst (Jun 8, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> WillHaftawaite said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



What does that have to do with my post?


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## Rigby5 (Jun 8, 2021)

RetiredGySgt said:


> LOL so what were the NV troops pretending to be insurgents status?



Not sure what you mean?
The fighting against the Japanese and the French had been mostly in the north, so the armed veterans were mostly in the north.
That does not mean the south also was glad to see the Japanese and French gone, and that they still were not greatful to Ho Chi MInh.
The VC were from the south, but we killed most of them in the Tet Offensive.
So then yes, NV troops did then start fighting in the south.
But that is not an insurgency because the US and Diem (and his following dictators), had no legitimacy at all.


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## Rigby5 (Jun 8, 2021)

WillHaftawaite said:


> Rigby5 said:
> 
> 
> > WillHaftawaite said:
> ...



Depends on what your post meant?
I just wanted to point out that the "hippie spitting on returning veterans" is mostly false.
The returning veterans were some of the most anti war, and the hippies knew that in general.


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## Hugo Furst (Jun 8, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> WillHaftawaite said:
> 
> 
> > Rigby5 said:
> ...


How many troops did we have in Nam?



Rigby5 said:


> The organization has claimed a peak membership of over 30,000.



30,000 sounds like a drop in the bucket.


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## Rigby5 (Jun 8, 2021)

OKTexas said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> > OKTexas said:
> ...



That is not true.
For example, Trump recently assassinated General Qasem Soleimani, and there was no implied declaration of war.
When Congress pass the authorization for the use of force in Iraq, it was limited to defending the US from WMD.
So was not a real declaration of war.
The fact the military then does what it wants, is part of the problem.


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## Dayton3 (Jun 8, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> White 6 said:
> 
> 
> > Rigby5 said:
> ...



Wrong.    The war in Vietnam was authorized by the U.S. Congress which made it completely legal.

And every war is winnable.


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## Rigby5 (Jun 8, 2021)

WillHaftawaite said:


> Rigby5 said:
> 
> 
> > WillHaftawaite said:
> ...



Highest under Johnson was about half a million troops.
But considering most were young and stupid, and they were not paid to join the VVAW, I think 30,000 shows extreme resistance.


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## Hugo Furst (Jun 8, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> WillHaftawaite said:
> 
> 
> > Rigby5 said:
> ...






Rigby5 said:


> I think 30,000 shows extreme resistance.



and estimated number, and likely included civilians.


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## Rigby5 (Jun 8, 2021)

Dayton3 said:


> Rigby5 said:
> 
> 
> > White 6 said:
> ...



Wrong.
Congress does not have unlimited authority, and can only declare war when required defensively.
Otherwise it fits the definition of illegal murder.
We also had congress ratify the UN charter, which makes any war illegal except when in direct defense, or with UN approval, like the Korean war.


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## Rigby5 (Jun 8, 2021)

WillHaftawaite said:


> Rigby5 said:
> 
> 
> > WillHaftawaite said:
> ...



Of course it was civilians.  Veterans always are civilians.  But VVAW has no one who was not a veteran.


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## Rigby5 (Jun 8, 2021)

RetiredGySgt said:


> We were not at war with the Soviet Union when the treason trial was held for that couple that spied for them in the 50's.



And likely the execution of the Rosenburgs was murder.
Those responsible should be in jail.


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## yidnar (Jun 8, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> White 6 said:
> 
> 
> > Rigby5 said:
> ...


listen to the communist [modern democrat] traitor defend a fellow traitor .


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## Dayton3 (Jun 8, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
> 
> > Rigby5 said:
> ...



Wrong.    No international agreement like the UN Charter is binding upon the United States unless it has enforcement provisions specifically passed by Congress that  lays out consequences of a violation and enforcement provisions. 

Look it up in "The Oxford Companion to American Law" if you don't believe me.


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## Rigby5 (Jun 8, 2021)

yidnar said:


> Rigby5 said:
> 
> 
> > White 6 said:
> ...



The Vietnamese have the legal right to choose their own government.
It was illegal for the US to try to interfere.

Nothing to do with political beliefs.
Pure case law.
The US was in violation.


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## yidnar (Jun 8, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> yidnar said:
> 
> 
> > Rigby5 said:
> ...


bull ! you are a leftist ! are trying to say that you are a conservative patriot ?


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## Rigby5 (Jun 8, 2021)

Dayton3 said:


> Rigby5 said:
> 
> 
> > Dayton3 said:
> ...



When the UN Charter was ratified by Congress, it became US law, just as the Geneva Conventions did in the past.
The consequences and enforcement can be passed to the external body, just as we do with international maritime law and the Geneva Conventions.


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## Rigby5 (Jun 8, 2021)

yidnar said:


> Rigby5 said:
> 
> 
> > yidnar said:
> ...



Sure I am a far left, progressive, liberal, but that does not conflict at all with also being a conservative patriot.
Leftist means being for the common poor people instead of the wealthy elite.
Progressive means fixing the things missing from the constitution, like ending slavery, and recognizing all individual rights.
Liberal means believing inherent individual liberties are the only source of legal authority.
There is no contradiction between any of that and being a conservative patriot because everyone had to know there were things missing from the Bill of Rights.


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## yidnar (Jun 8, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> yidnar said:
> 
> 
> > Rigby5 said:
> ...


sooo you are a communist [socialist ] and just how did i surmise that i wonder ??


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## Dayton3 (Jun 8, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> yidnar said:
> 
> 
> > Rigby5 said:
> ...


If that is the case then we have an amendment process for the U.S. Constitution that has been used more than two dozen times.     It isn't our place to simply decide what the U.S. Constitution is "supposed" to say.


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## Rigby5 (Jun 8, 2021)

yidnar said:


> sooo you are a communist [socialist ] and just how did i surmise that i wonder ??



That is too complex for a simple response because you don't know what socialism or communism is.
You likely think they imply a strictly centralized form of government, and they don't.


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## Rigby5 (Jun 8, 2021)

Dayton3 said:


> Rigby5 said:
> 
> 
> > yidnar said:
> ...



In general that is true.
The SCOTUS has slowly been incorporating the Bill of Rights as individual rights.
But imagine how painful it is to have to have waited until 1975 for Civil Rights if you are Black?
I would be tempted to speed things up a little.

And some thing we do have to decide are constitutional or not.
Like Prohibition was not.
It was a nanny law not based on defense of individual rights, but an invasive intrusion on the desires of others.
I think the War on Drugs is similarly illegal, and in violation of the principles of the constitution.
So are assault weapons bans.


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## White 6 (Jun 8, 2021)

Dayton3 said:


> Rigby5 said:
> 
> 
> > White 6 said:
> ...


Not necessarily.  Did you ever hear, "Never fight a land war in Asia"? It's a different type of war. If you think you have won, you will still have to keep an occupying force in place for generations to control what you never really controlled to begin with and will fight that war again and again if you wish to keep any semblance of order.   They read the The Art of War and understood Sun Tzu Wu, perfectly.


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## cnm (Jun 8, 2021)

White 6 said:


> When we have troops is the field,


...one must be a good German.

Jawohl!


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## cnm (Jun 8, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> The only reason the war was so protracted and is sometimes seen as a loss is because American leaders refused to let us win it.


Just like all the other wars since then your leaders have refused to let you win, eh?


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## cnm (Jun 8, 2021)

Mac-7 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > We took a Civil War in Vietnam and turned it into a Cold War proxy.
> ...


By losing it?


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## Rigby5 (Jun 8, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > 9thIDdoc said:
> ...



That is silly because when the north took over in the south, there were no massacres.
The rural south of Vietnam had always been communist.
When you need the whole village to keep rice paddies going, then communism is what you are already doing.


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## White 6 (Jun 8, 2021)

cnm said:


> White 6 said:
> 
> 
> > When we have troops is the field,
> ...


I would not have cared, if she were German.


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## rightwinger (Jun 8, 2021)

White 6 said:


> Did you ever hear, "Never fight a land war in Asia"



“Never go against a Sicilian when death is on the line”


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## White 6 (Jun 8, 2021)

cnm said:


> Mac-7 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


The outcome of the Cold War was never finalized.  The enemy gets a vote.  The American public never understood that and thought it was over.  It wasn't and still isn't.  Putin knows this.


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 8, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> WillHaftawaite said:
> 
> 
> > Rigby5 said:
> ...


Untrue. After Kerry and other members testified under oath before congress about alleged a "war crimes" they and their claims were officially investigated. Some were found to have never been in the military.  Some who had been in the military had never been in Vietnam. Some who actually had been to Vietnam had never been in a combat unit or assigned combat duties. Of the very few who had none, of their allegations were confirmed to have been war crimes.. None. Veterans or not they were simply a lying pack of scumbags looking for attention by defaming their betters. Pure theatrics.


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## cnm (Jun 8, 2021)

Dayton3 said:


> No international agreement like the UN Charter is binding upon the United States unless it has enforcement provisions specifically passed by Congress that lays out consequences of a violation and enforcement provisions.


Interesting. So the supreme Law of the Land is not binding on the US. That explains a lot.

_2:  This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding._​


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## cnm (Jun 8, 2021)

White 6 said:


> I would not have cared, if she were German.


The White Rose?


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## cnm (Jun 8, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> Of the very few who had none, of their allegations were confirmed to have been war crimes..


I'm curious. Was Calley charged/convicted of a war crime, or has the US ever confirmed the My Lai massacre to have been a war crime?


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## cnm (Jun 8, 2021)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Or perhaps you can list for us the times the NV took territory while the US was there?


Lol. I thought they took it back every night.


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## cnm (Jun 8, 2021)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Again you fucking Moron SV fell to an external Invasion not to any insurgency.


I love the way you pretend Vietnam was not invaded by Vietnam.


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## cnm (Jun 8, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> If you were part of we the people you would understand that we the people *are *the government and that any government failure is also *your* failure no matter how much you whine and complain. No "we" that I'm a part of has any room for anti-American Communist shills or traitors.


If 'they' are not part of 'we' the failure is not theirs.


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## Dayton3 (Jun 8, 2021)

White 6 said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
> 
> > Rigby5 said:
> ...



1) A common saying in no way makes something true.   
2) What is he big deal about keeping occupying force in a place for generations?     Many occupying forces have to stay a prolonged length of time. 
3) Just because something appears in a a book by Sun Tzu doesn't make it true either.


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## Dayton3 (Jun 8, 2021)

cnm said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> > Of the very few who had none, of their allegations were confirmed to have been war crimes..
> ...


Calley was  convicted and sent to prison ( albeit for a short time).    Actually Calley spent almost all of his three years incarcerated under house arrest.    He benefited greatly from the common opinion that he was a scapegoat for U.S. military policy.


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 8, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


Untrue. You just refuse to notice them. There was no shortage of atrocities while the war was ongoing Massacre at Huế List of massacres in Vietnam And only an idiot would suppose they suddenly became all warm and fuzzy once they took control. We have South Vietnamese communities here in the US. Ask them. What right do you have to speak for them? The boat people of the time were fleeing occupied South Vietnam; not fleeing *to* it.


----------



## White 6 (Jun 8, 2021)

Dayton3 said:


> White 6 said:
> 
> 
> > Dayton3 said:
> ...


You never read it and understood it, either.  Lots of truth in that small book.  That is why it is still studied today.


----------



## Dayton3 (Jun 8, 2021)

White 6 said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
> 
> > White 6 said:
> ...



What makes you think that?


----------



## 9thIDdoc (Jun 8, 2021)

cnm said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
> 
> > No international agreement like the UN Charter is binding upon the United States unless it has enforcement provisions specifically passed by Congress that lays out consequences of a violation and enforcement provisions.
> ...


International treaties must be Constitutional or they are not legal no matter who says otherwise. Neither our own government nor any foreign government or organization can legally violate the Bill of Rights. Attempting to do so is an act of war.


----------



## Rigby5 (Jun 8, 2021)

White 6 said:


> cnm said:
> 
> 
> > Mac-7 said:
> ...



I think the whole "cold war" was a hoax.
It really started around 1890, with the Bolshevik propaganda out of correct fear that the US was getting to corrupt, that some sort of changes were bound to start happening in the US as well.  For better or worse, instead the change were brought on by Teddy Roosevelt and trust busting, which solve the most serious problems.
The reality is that Russia never had the resources, connections, ability, or inclination to be any sort of threat to the US.
But fear is always a good justification for raising taxes.


----------



## Mac-7 (Jun 8, 2021)

cnm said:


> By losing it?


American arms destroyed tje NVA

We brought the communists to the bargaining table and saved the South

But after US forces withdrew the traitorous democrats in congress cut off funding to the democratic south and the communists took over


----------



## Rigby5 (Jun 8, 2021)

Dayton3 said:


> 1) A common saying in no way makes something true.
> 2) What is he big deal about keeping occupying force in a place for generations? Many occupying forces have to stay a prolonged length of time.
> 3) Just because something appears in a a book by Sun Tzu doesn't make it true either.



Keeping an occupying force for generations costs more than any possible point of invading in the first place, if the population is never pacified.
The Chinese occupied Vietnam for a 1000 years before they realized they had lost.
We just learned more quickly.


----------



## rightwinger (Jun 8, 2021)

Mac-7 said:


> cnm said:
> 
> 
> > By losing it?
> ...


Revisionist History along the lines that Trump had the election stolen from him

We negotiated with the N Vietnamese to get our troops out safely without being attacked. There was no pretext that we had won

We left a large portion of our military hardware with the S Vietnamese.  State of the Art Helicopter Gunships, a modern air force, tanks, artillery, ammo and supplies. 
In spite of all this and fighting a defensive war....the South quickly folded.......they were that bad


----------



## Rigby5 (Jun 8, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> Untrue. After Kerry and other members testified under oath before congress about alleged a "war crimes" they and their claims were officially investigated. Some were found to have never been in the military. Some who had been in the military had never been in Vietnam. Some who actually had been to Vietnam had never been in a combat unit or assigned combat duties. Of the very few who had none, of their allegations were confirmed to have been war crimes.. None. Veterans or not they were simply a lying pack of scumbags looking for attention by defaming their betters. Pure theatrics.



How can you say that?
You never heard of Mai Lai?
Lt. Calley?
The tiger pits?
Captured VC thrown out of helicopters?
Agent Orange?
Sinking Russian ship in Hai Phong harbor with mines?
How about supporting Diem's illegal military coup that prevented democratic elections?

The Declaration of Independence does not just say that US citizens have individual rights like to vote, etc.
It says ALL people do, every where.
So it is criminal when any one violates those inherent rights, and if the criminals are US citizens, they become our duty to prosecute.
The whole Pentagon should have been prosecuted.


----------



## White 6 (Jun 8, 2021)

Dayton3 said:


> White 6 said:
> 
> 
> > Dayton3 said:
> ...


I read and re-read for a paper on it  for A.O.A.C.   Sun Tzu was against fighting wars at distance, due to supply lines and ability to use mass and effective re-enforcement, and the fact they were not on his door step, so to speak.  He favored deception where possible.  Did not favor occupying armies to exact tribute, taxes and maintain controlled order, knowing locals would always gum up the works if they could not mount outright offensive.  Not sure if sabotage was mentioned, but it was endemic to the warfare of the feudal warlord conflicts in that part of the world, carried out more by peasants, not so much soldiers.


----------



## cnm (Jun 8, 2021)

Dayton3 said:


> Calley was convicted


Of a war crime? Has the US acknowledged My Lai was a war crime?


----------



## Rigby5 (Jun 8, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> Untrue. You just refuse to notice them. There was no shortage of atrocities while the war was ongoing Massacre at Huế List of massacres in Vietnam And only an idiot would suppose they suddenly became all warm and fuzzy once they took control. We have South Vietnamese communities here in the US. Ask them. What right do you have to speak for them? The boat people of the time were fleeing occupied South Vietnam; not fleeing *to* it.



I do talk to Vietnamese here, and they mostly came due to the illegal economic sanctions the US imposed.
Nothing to do with massacres.
During the war was different.
There not only were hard feelings, but there was desperation as well.
Not so once we left.
The boat people show poverty due to our embargo, not repression.
With repression you can't get a boat or leave.


----------



## cnm (Jun 8, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> International treaties must be Constitutional or they are not legal no matter who says otherwise.


Are you saying the US did not become signatory to the UN Charter under the authority of the US?
​_2: This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding._​


----------



## Rigby5 (Jun 8, 2021)

Mac-7 said:


> cnm said:
> 
> 
> > By losing it?
> ...



We took the bargaining table away originally by backing the brutal military takeover by Diem in 1954.
There is no amount of funding that could have kept the corrupt government of South Vietnam afloat.


----------



## White 6 (Jun 8, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> White 6 said:
> 
> 
> > cnm said:
> ...


They did.  They do. Plus, they threaten Europe even more and still support anti-democracy efforts around the world.  You have your head up your ass, or you are just a supporter of the old Soviet and the present day Russian government.  I do not.


----------



## Dayton3 (Jun 8, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
> 
> > 1) A common saying in no way makes something true.
> ...



It is quite possible to kill all the people fighting you.


----------



## Dayton3 (Jun 8, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Mac-7 said:
> 
> 
> > cnm said:
> ...


 
Considering hundreds of thousands of North Vietnamese regular troops were allowed to remain INSIDE South Vietnam after the treaty was signed there was no real chance that the  South Vietnamese could hold out without U.S. support (which was promised).


----------



## Dayton3 (Jun 8, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Mac-7 said:
> 
> 
> > cnm said:
> ...



There was nothing especially corrupt about the South Vietnamese government.    And historically corrupt governments have stayed afloat for months,   years, even generations.


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Jun 8, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Mac-7 said:
> 
> 
> > cnm said:
> ...


Wrong you fucking RETARD they lost because in 1974 the US Congress cut off all ammo parts supplies and equipment to South Vietnam. and still out number 2 to one and heavily outnumbered in tanks and armored vehicles the south fought for a MONTH.


----------



## rightwinger (Jun 8, 2021)

RetiredGySgt said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Mac-7 said:
> ...



They lost because the S Vietnamese forces outright SUCKED
Poor leadership, poor morale unable and unwilling to fight on their own

They had the best equipment, air superiority, choppers, modern air force.....


They still LOST......Their own fault


----------



## Dayton3 (Jun 8, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



All false and utterly idiotic.     You've swallowed the lies of the mainstream media whole.


----------



## OKTexas (Jun 8, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> OKTexas said:
> 
> 
> > Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> ...




Damn you're one stupid son of a bitch. Soleimani was providing material support and expertise to terrorist that were attacking US facilities and personnel, including the US Embassy. He entered the theater of war at his own peril and paid the price for it. He knew the US considered him the number 1 terrorist in the region. It was a good thing he was sent home in sandwich bags.

.


----------



## OKTexas (Jun 8, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Dayton3 said:
> 
> 
> > Rigby5 said:
> ...




Feel free to point that out in the Constitution.

.


----------



## OKTexas (Jun 8, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> > Untrue. After Kerry and other members testified under oath before congress about alleged a "war crimes" they and their claims were officially investigated. Some were found to have never been in the military. Some who had been in the military had never been in Vietnam. Some who actually had been to Vietnam had never been in a combat unit or assigned combat duties. Of the very few who had none, of their allegations were confirmed to have been war crimes.. None. Veterans or not they were simply a lying pack of scumbags looking for attention by defaming their betters. Pure theatrics.
> ...






Rigby5 said:


> The whole Pentagon should have been prosecuted.


You stupid fucking commie, the Military is controlled by civilian authority.

.


----------



## OKTexas (Jun 8, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> > Untrue. You just refuse to notice them. There was no shortage of atrocities while the war was ongoing Massacre at Huế List of massacres in Vietnam And only an idiot would suppose they suddenly became all warm and fuzzy once they took control. We have South Vietnamese communities here in the US. Ask them. What right do you have to speak for them? The boat people of the time were fleeing occupied South Vietnam; not fleeing *to* it.
> ...




LMAO, you might want to tell the people of Cuba that. They're finding all kinds of inventive ways to escape repression.

.


----------



## OKTexas (Jun 9, 2021)

cnm said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> > International treaties must be Constitutional or they are not legal no matter who says otherwise.
> ...




You might want to do some reading on the topic you stupid commie. Start here:





__





						supreme court internation agreements and treaties the violate the US constituion are unenforcable at DuckDuckGo
					

DuckDuckGo. Privacy, Simplified.




					duckduckgo.com
				




.


----------



## 9thIDdoc (Jun 9, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> > Untrue. After Kerry and other members testified under oath before congress about alleged a "war crimes" they and their claims were officially investigated. Some were found to have never been in the military. Some who had been in the military had never been in Vietnam. Some who actually had been to Vietnam had never been in a combat unit or assigned combat duties. Of the very few who had none, of their allegations were confirmed to have been war crimes.. None. Veterans or not they were simply a lying pack of scumbags looking for attention by defaming their betters. Pure theatrics.
> ...








If you were actually interested you could have followed one of the links I posted for you and found this: Note the numbers killed and by whom
This does not include many villages where the VC made "examples" of those they thought cooperated with the US or South Vietnamese. 
The following is a list of massacres that have occurred in Vietnam and its predecessors:


NameDateLocationDeathsPerpetratorSài Gòn massacre (Cité Héraud massacre)September 24–26, 1945Đa Kao of Sài Gòn Province, Vietnam300–400Việt MinhHàng Bún Street MassacreDecember 17, 1946Hàng Bún Street, Hanoi, VietnamAt least over 20French Armed ForcesMỹ Trạch massacreNovember 29, 1947Mỹ Trạch village, Mỹ Thủy commune, Lệ Thủy District, Quảng Bình Province300, more thanFrench Armed ForcesChâu Đốc massacreJuly 11, 1957Châu Đốc in An Giang Province, South Vietnam17Anti-government insurgentsBình An/Tây Vinh massacre (disputed)February 12, 1966 – March 17, 1966Tây Sơn District of Bình Định Province, South Vietnam1,004Republic of Korea Armed ForcesBinh Tai massacre (disputed)October 9, 1966Binh Tai village, Phước Bình, Sông Bé Province, South Vietnam168Republic of Korea Armed ForcesBình Hòa massacre (disputed)December 3, 1966 to December 6, 1966Bình Hòa village, Quảng Ngãi Province, South Vietnam430Republic of Korea Armed ForcesThuy Bo incident (disputed)January 31, 1967 to February 1, 1967Thuy Bo, Điện Bàn District, Quảng Nam Province, South Vietnam145United States Marine CorpsĐắk Sơn massacreDecember 5, 1967Đắk Sơn, Đắk Lắk Province, South Vietnam114–252Viet CongMassacre at HuếJanuary 31, 1968 to February 28, 1968Huế2,800–6,000Viet Cong and North Vietnamese ArmyPhong Nhị and Phong Nhất massacreFebruary 12, 1968Phong Nhị and Phong Nhất hamlets, Điện Bàn District of Quảng Nam Province, South Vietnam69–79Republic of Korea Armed ForcesHà My massacre (disputed)February 25, 1968Hà Mỹ village, Quảng Nam Province, South Vietnam135Republic of Korea Armed ForcesMy Lai MassacreMarch 16, 1968Mỹ Lai and My Khê hamlets, Sơn Mỹ, Quảng Ngãi, South Vietnam504U.S. ArmyThanh Phong massacreFebruary 25, 1969Thanh Phong village of Bến Tre Province, South Vietnam21U.S. NavySon Thang massacreFebruary 19, 1970Son Thang, South Vietnam16U.S. Marine CorpsDuc Duc massacreMarch 29, 1971Duc Duc Village, Quảng Nam Province, South Vietnam250Viet Cong and North Vietnamese ArmyBa Chúc massacreApril 18, 1978Ba Chúc, Tri Tôn, An Giang province, South Vietnam3,157Khmer Rouge Forces

"Tiger pits" were invented and used by the Vietnamese; not the US. 
I have had two heat attacks and have ischemic heart disease attributed to agent orange exposer I think it's safe to say I've heard of it. Not a war crime.
Sinking a Russian ship in Hai Phong harbor with mines is a pleasing war accomplishment; not a war crime.
*How about supporting Diem's illegal military coup that prevented democratic elections?*
Not a war crime and did not prevent elections.

_*The Declaration of Independence does not just say that US citizens have individual rights like to vote, etc.*_
*It says ALL people do, every where.*
The Declaration of Independence was basically a message telling the King of England to get bent. And lists some of the reasons for withdrawing from the Empire. It was in fact an illegal document that made the signers self-confessed traitors and criminals.  
It is the US Constitution that was enacted much later that made the Bill of Rights the law of the land. The US Bill of Rights does not-and can not- convey Rights to citizens of other Countries who have their own governments and laws. The Bill of Rights most certainly does convey individual rights to Americans.


----------



## 9thIDdoc (Jun 9, 2021)

cnm said:


> 9thIDdoc said:
> 
> 
> > International treaties must be Constitutional or they are not legal no matter who says otherwise.
> ...


I am saying that signing the Charter did not-and could not- commit this Nation to any act that would violate the US Constitution. Had it done so the signing would have been illegal.


----------



## rightwinger (Jun 9, 2021)

9thIDdoc said:


> Rigby5 said:
> 
> 
> > 9thIDdoc said:
> ...


All told......around 10,000
Not the millions that you claimed.


----------



## Mac-7 (Jun 9, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> Mac-7 said:
> 
> 
> > cnm said:
> ...


The north vietnamese never lost the support of russia and china

Not before or after the US withdrawal 

But the south was abandoned by the US thanks to democrats in congress

Thats a fact


----------



## Mac-7 (Jun 9, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> There is no amount of funding that could have kept the corrupt government of South Vietnam afloat.


Bullshit

The American revolution did not have full support of the colonists

Or even majority support

The vietnam war became an ideological battle between the left and right in America symbolized by libs like Jane Fonda and is being misrepresented by the left ever since


----------



## Mac-7 (Jun 9, 2021)

RetiredGySgt said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Mac-7 said:
> ...


It is libs who want to rewrite history to hide their guilt


----------



## Frankeneinstein (Aug 21, 2022)

Jane Fonda is the real life version of "white privilege" that the left worships and like with everything else keeps pointing the finger at others...
...Kennedy set the stage for Nam, Johnson produced the war and Nixon/Ford ended it, but Fonda called Nixon the "Hitler" from the group.
It's the same with all atrocities, white left wing privilege pays no price for its evil, they just share their guilt...concentration camps for Japanese-Americans, using nuclear weapons on their fellow man, slavery, Nam...the list of their crimes against humanity is endless, as is the finger pointing....its the definition of privilege in America.

btw Kennedy was a great man


----------



## rightwinger (Aug 21, 2022)

Frankeneinstein said:


> Jane Fonda is the real life version of "white privilege" that the left worships and like with everything else keeps pointing the finger at others...Kennedy set the stage for Nam, Johnson produced the war and Nixon/Ford ended it, but Fonda called Nixon the "Hitler" from the group.
> It's the same with all atrocities, white left wing privilege pays no price for its evil, they just share their guilt...concentration camps for Japanese-Americans, using nuclear weapons on their fellow man, slavery, Nam...the list of their crimes against humanity is endless, as is the finger pointing....its the definition of privilege in America.
> 
> btw Kennedy was a great man


If JFK had not been assassinated, he would have made the same mistakes in Vietnam that LBJ did


----------



## gipper (Aug 21, 2022)

Frankeneinstein said:


> Jane Fonda is the real life version of "white privilege" that the left worships and like everything else keeps pointing the finger at others...Kennedy set the stage for Nam, Johnson produced the war and Nixon/Ford ended it, but Fonda called Nixon the "Hitler" from the group.
> It's the same with all atrocities, white left wing privilege pays no price for its evil, they just share their guilt...concentration camps for Japanese-Americans, using nuclear weapons on their fellow man, slavery, Nam...the list of their crimes against humanity is endless, as is the finger pointing.
> 
> btw Kennedy was a great man


JFK was a great man and blaming the left for America’s historical atrocities is inaccurate. 

The right fully supported the Nam War and continued to long after it was an obvious failure and a horrendous crime.


----------



## gipper (Aug 21, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> If JFK had not been assassinated, he would have made the same mistakes in Vietnam that LBJ did


No. Wrong as usual. 

He planned to pull all troops after re-election. If you weren’t such a stupid warmongering statist, you’d know of his Peace Speech just months before your beloved shadow state had him murdered.


----------



## Frankeneinstein (Aug 21, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> If JFK had not been assassinated, he would have made the same mistakes in Vietnam that LBJ did


Hard to imagine "Hanoi Jane" referring to Kennedy as Hitler though, what do you think the spoiled white privileged brat would have done in that circumstance?


----------



## rightwinger (Aug 21, 2022)

gipper said:


> No. Wrong as usual.
> 
> He planned to pull all troops after re-election. If you weren’t such a stupid warmongering statist, you’d know of his Peace Speech just months before your beloved shadow state had him murdered.



JFK had the same advisors and generals that LBJ did. 
Robert MacNamara would have given him the same advice he gave LBJ.
Like LBJ, JFK did not want to appear soft on Communism and would have sent troops to keep S Vietnam from falling to the Communists 

Vietnam in 1963 was not the same as Vietnam in 1965


----------



## rightwinger (Aug 21, 2022)

Frankeneinstein said:


> Hard to imagine "Hanoi Jane" referring to Kennedy as Hitler though, what do you think the spoiled white privileged brat would have done in that circumstance?



If JFK had lived, I think rather than Camelot, he would have been heckled just as badly as LBJ was


----------



## Frankeneinstein (Aug 21, 2022)

gipper said:


> JFK was a great man


is there an echo?


gipper said:


> and blaming the left for America’s historical atrocities is inaccurate.


you mean the white privilege left...and only because they are the white privilege is it called inaccurate, otherwise it is obvious


gipper said:


> The right fully supported the Nam War and continued to long after it was an obvious failure and a horrendous crime.


and of course the finger pointing! where is the part about who began and ended the war, ya know, the real inconvenient truths.  more and more people are starting to see through the white privilege finger pointing.


----------



## Frankeneinstein (Aug 21, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> JFK had the same advisors and generals that LBJ did.
> Robert MacNamara would have given him the same advice he gave LBJ.
> Like LBJ, JFK did not want to appear soft on Communism and would have sent troops to keep S Vietnam from falling to the Communists


So? Is this to say that you do believe "Hanoi Jane" would have called Kennedy Hitler?


rightwinger said:


> Vietnam in 1963 was not the same as Vietnam in 1965


Which backs up my post/claim "Kennedy set the stage, Johnson produced the war" [you are not trying to pass that off as your claim are you?] who ended that left wing atrocity RW?...tell everyone.


----------



## Frankeneinstein (Aug 21, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> If JFK had not been assassinated, he would have made the same mistakes in Vietnam that LBJ did


Well perhaps, but the scuttlebutt on the left is that he was assassinated because he had no intention of making those mistakes...SEE: Oliver Stone


----------



## gipper (Aug 21, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> JFK had the same advisors and generals that LBJ did.
> Robert MacNamara would have given him the same advice he gave LBJ.
> Like LBJ, JFK did not want to appear soft on Communism and would have sent troops to keep S Vietnam from falling to the Communists
> 
> Vietnam in 1963 was not the same as Vietnam in 1965


Yes and they all opposed his efforts to stop the war. Some say this is why they assassinated him.

Tell me what changed in Vietnam between 1963 and 1965?


----------



## Frankeneinstein (Aug 21, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> If JFK had lived, I think rather than Camelot, he would have been heckled just as badly as LBJ was


So "Hanoi Jane" would have seen Kennedy as Hitler as well?


----------



## Frankeneinstein (Aug 21, 2022)

gipper said:


> Yes and they all opposed his efforts to stop the war. Some say this is why they assassinated him.


If it was in fact an assassination, then that is probably why


gipper said:


> Tell me what changed in Vietnam between 1963 and 1965?


Kennedy issued an "nsa" or "sam" or some memorandum numbered 263 [look that up as it may be the incorrect number] ordering down the troops in Nam [between 10 and 20 thousand stationed in the south] by 1000...
... after he was killed, Johnson, as the story goes, drew up memorandum 264 or 265 [look that up as well] during the Kennedy funeral procession reversing Kennedy's orders and flooding Nam with hundreds of thousands of troops by 65...the war was on


----------



## gipper (Aug 21, 2022)

Frankeneinstein said:


> If it was in fact an assassination, then that is probably why
> 
> Kennedy issued an nsa or sam or some memorandum numbered 263 [look that up as it may be the incorrect number] ordering down the troops in Nam [between 10 and 20 thousand stationed in the south] by 1000, after he was killed Johnson, as the story goes, drew up memorandum 264 or 265 [look that up as well] during the Kennedy funeral procession reversing Kennedy's orders and flooding Nam with hundreds of thousands of troops by 65...the war was on


Yes. LBJ’s actions expanding the war immediately after JFK’s assassination, would seem to be a red flag.


----------



## Frankeneinstein (Aug 21, 2022)

gipper said:


> Yes. LBJ’s actions expanding the war immediately after JFK’s assassination, would seem to be a red flag.


I'm not sure of how accurate that information was, but no one seems to dispute it.


----------



## rightwinger (Aug 21, 2022)

Frankeneinstein said:


> So? Is this to say that you do believe "Hanoi Jane" would have called Kennedy Hitler?



Vietnam protestors like Jane Fonda and John Kerry were Patriots

They recognized that we had no business being in Vietnam and that we were being lied to 

The Traitors were those who wrapped themselves in the flag and promised quick victory while they proceeded to get 60,000 Americans killed


----------



## rightwinger (Aug 21, 2022)

gipper said:


> Yes. LBJ’s actions expanding the war immediately after JFK’s assassination, would seem to be a red flag.



LBJ wanted no part of Vietnam
But he was told by his advisors that “You don’t want Vietnam going Communist on your watch”. Just give us 60,000 troops and we will wrap this thing up by Christmas with minimal casualties 

No politician in the 60s would have turned that down. Not JFK, not Nixon, not Goldwater, not Rockefeller


----------



## Mr Natural (Aug 21, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> Vietnam protestors like Jane Fonda and John Kerry were Patriots
> 
> They recognized that we had no business being in Vietnam and that we were being lied to
> 
> The Traitors were those who wrapped themselves in the flag and promised quick victory while they proceeded to get 60,000 Americans killed


And many of those 60,000 were enslaved via the draft.

You Gen Xers and Millenials can thank us Boomers for relieving you of that obligation.


----------



## Mac-7 (Aug 21, 2022)

Mr Clean said:


> Fifty thousand young guys (many enslaved via the draft) died needlessly  in that fucking useless fiasco. It made me ashamed to be an American.
> 
> I escaped it by joining the Navy.
> 
> And Jane Fonda remains a hero of mine for doing what she did.


the Vietnam War was an effort to save one small country from the curse of communism

The effort failed thank to jane fonda and quisling democrats in congress

But it was a noble effort


----------



## Mr Natural (Aug 21, 2022)

Mac-7 said:


> the Vietnam War was an effort to save one small country from the curse of communism
> 
> The effort failed thank to jane fonda and quisling democrats in congress
> 
> But it was a noble effort


And the commies won anyway and now they’re making clothing and hats for us.

A complete waste of 60,000 young lives thanks to some stupid domino theory bullshit.


----------



## Mac-7 (Aug 21, 2022)

Mr Clean said:


> *And the commies won anyway and now they’re making clothing and hats for us.*


The war is over but libs just cant give it up


----------



## Mr Natural (Aug 21, 2022)

Mac-7 said:


> The war is over but libs just cant give it up


Bad mistakes should never be forgotten.


----------



## Mac-7 (Aug 21, 2022)

Mr Clean said:


> And the commies won anyway and now they’re making clothing and hats for us.
> 
> *A complete waste of 60,000 young lives thanks to some stupid domino theory bullshit.*


The domino theory was correct

We lost South Vietnam and Cambodia but saved Thailand and the rest of SE Asia


----------



## Mr Natural (Aug 21, 2022)

Mac-7 said:


> The domino theory was correct


It was bullshit.


----------



## Mac-7 (Aug 21, 2022)

Mr Clean said:


> It was bullshit.


It is naive of libs to think that international communism did not want Burma and Thailand also


----------



## rightwinger (Aug 21, 2022)

Mac-7 said:


> the Vietnam War was an effort to save one small country from the curse of communism
> 
> The effort failed thank to jane fonda and quisling democrats in congress
> 
> But it was a noble effort


Vietnam was a Civil War that we turned into a Cold War

Fonda and other protestors were right about the war
War hawks lied to us and killed 60,000


----------



## gipper (Aug 21, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> LBJ wanted no part of Vietnam
> But he was told by his advisors that “You don’t want Vietnam going Communist on your watch”. Just give us 60,000 troops and we will wrap this thing up by Christmas with minimal casualties
> 
> No politician in the 60s would have turned that down. Not JFK, not Nixon, not Goldwater, not Rockefeller


Yeah sure. He just expanded our presence their as soon as he took office.  Lol.


----------



## Mac-7 (Aug 21, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> Vietnam was a Civil War that we turned into a Cold War
> 
> Fonda and other protestors were right about the war
> War hawks lied to us and killed 60,000


It was a civil war backed by russia and china for communist expansion leading to world domination


----------



## gipper (Aug 21, 2022)

Mac-7 said:


> It was a civil war backed by russia and china for communist expansion leading to world domination


Lmfao!!!!


----------



## Mac-7 (Aug 21, 2022)

gipper said:


> Lmfao!!!!


Laughter borne by your ignorance


----------



## rightwinger (Aug 21, 2022)

Mr Clean said:


> It was bullshit.





Mac-7 said:


> It was a civil war backed by russia and china for communist expansion leading to world domination



If that was the case, where was the world domination when the Communists won in 1975?
All the fear mongering that kept us in the war for ten years and killed over a million people never happened


----------



## Billo_Really (Aug 21, 2022)

longly said:


> *In science, one verifies one's observations by submitting them to peer review. I remember something very clearly from the Vietnam War, but liberal friends and acquaintances tell me it never happened. I  have done internet research, but I can't find anything in regards to this issue. Now I know she made those comments before the internet, but they should be in the history of the time.  So here is the question for all  the boomer generation that may be on this site: I remember Jane Fonda praising the Khmer Rouge for their victory in  Cambodia; do you remember it?   Do you have a source that would back up my memories?*


You Tube "Hanoi Jane" to find your answer.  Then jack-off to her in "Cat Ballou".


----------



## gipper (Aug 21, 2022)

Mac-7 said:


> Laughter borne by your ignorance


The shit you believe.


----------



## Mac-7 (Aug 21, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> If that was the case, where was the world domination when the Communists won in 1975?


The war was very expensive for the communist bloc which has a much smaller economy than the US

We exhausted the enemy, even though demo traitors in congress handed the victory to the losers of the fighting


----------



## Mac-7 (Aug 21, 2022)

gipper said:


> The shit you believe.


The trouble with libs is that you dont know how much you dont know


----------



## gipper (Aug 21, 2022)

Mac-7 said:


> The war was very expensive for the communist bloc which has a much smaller economy than the US
> 
> We exhausted the enemy, even though demo traitors in congress handed the victory to the losers of the fighting


There is absolutely no proof of this.


----------



## gipper (Aug 21, 2022)

Mac-7 said:


> The trouble with libs is that you dont know how much you dont know


I’m a no lib doofus. Just ask RW.

You dumb cons are so intellectually limited.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Aug 21, 2022)

gipper said:


> I’m a no lib doofus. Just ask RW.
> 
> You dumb cons are so intellectually limited.


No, you are a complete moron who doesn't know which side of the fence you should be on!  Your entire purpose is to troll.


----------



## MarathonMike (Aug 21, 2022)

White 6 said:


> How bout this found with DuckDuckGo:
> Even in 1979, when the world was aware of the millions of Vietnamese and Cambodians murdered and starved to death by their communist victors, when even Joan Baez protested the Khmer Rouge slaughter, Jane Fonda refused to join in. As she then told the National Press Club, she was unable to confirm the accuracy of the charges.
> 
> This is more upsetting:
> ...


After all these years, I'm still not Fonda Hanoi Jane. She undoubtedly fueled the terrible backlash to our young veterans returning from The Viet Nam hell hole.


----------



## ChemEngineer (Aug 21, 2022)

Mac-7 said:


> The trouble with libs is that you don't know how much you don't know


*Worse by far, they never want to learn anything.   They can't learn even in 20/20 hindsight.  Like the communists. Forge ahead.
"Progressive" is a one-word oxymoron.*
*http://DemocratInsanity.blogspot.com*


----------



## gipper (Aug 21, 2022)

ChemEngineer said:


> *Worse by far, they never want to learn anything.   They can't learn even in 20/20 hindsight.  Like the communists. Forge ahead.
> "Progressive" is a one-word oxymoron.*
> *http://DemocratInsanity.blogspot.com*


Except that there is no left wing or progressive movement in this country and certainly not in the D Party. The D Party is almost an exact duplication of the R Party. Both are corporatist, statist, authoritarian, warmongering political parties.


----------



## AZrailwhale (Aug 21, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> History proved there was no Domino Theory
> All the evils we predicted if Vietnam turned Communist never happened.
> We killed millions needlessly because we couldn’t mind our own business


So you are fine with the millions of Vietnamese and Cambodians murdered by their communist governments after the fall of Saigon?


----------



## gipper (Aug 21, 2022)

AZrailwhale said:


> So you are fine with the millions of Vietnamese and Cambodians murdered by their communist governments after the fall of Saigon?


Yet your fine with the millions killed and wounded caused by the USG‘s involvement.


----------



## MarathonMike (Aug 21, 2022)

gipper said:


> Except that there is no left wing or progressive movement in this country and certainly not in the D Party. The D Party is almost an exact duplication of the R Party. Both are corporatist, statist, authoritarian, warmongering political parties.


Rubbish. The Democrats have created the largest immigrant invasion the modern world has ever seen. Where are they all going to go? How much will "free healthcare" for millions upon millions of sick immigrants and their kids cost the US? They have also turned some of our finest cities into crime ridden hell holes. The Democrats represent foreign interests not American interests.


----------



## gipper (Aug 21, 2022)

MarathonMike said:


> Rubbish. The Democrats have created the largest immigrant invasion the modern world has ever seen. Where are they all going to go? How much will "free healthcare" for millions upon millions of sick immigrants and their kids cost the US? They have also turned some of our finest cities into crime ridden hell holes. The Democrats represent foreign interests not American interests.


No. Immigration has been a problem for decades. Did you forget Ronnie’s amnesty? W tried to give an amnesty too. 

Ds represent the interests of their donors, just as Rs do. This will blow your mind…their donors are the same people.


----------



## MarathonMike (Aug 21, 2022)

gipper said:


> No. Immigration has been a problem for decades. Did you forget Ronnie’s amnesty? W tried to give an amnesty too.
> 
> Ds represent the interests of their donors, just as Rs do. This will blow your mind…their donors are the same people.


I have lived within an hour's drive of the border for over 40 years. I can assure you, it has NEVER been this bad. Furthermore, the Democrats have corrupted the DOJ and intelligence agencies during their 6 year campaign to destroy Donald Trump. I will agree that the lifers of both parties are two sides of the same coin, but the Democratic Party is now run by the extremists and Biden is their meat puppet.


----------



## Mac-7 (Aug 21, 2022)

gipper said:


> There is absolutely no proof of this.


As much proof as any informed person needs

Where is your ironclad “proof” that the war was wrong?

L


----------



## Mac-7 (Aug 21, 2022)

gipper said:


> *I’m a no lib doofus. Just ask RW.*
> 
> You dumb cons are so intellectually limited.


Like the man said, If it walks like a duck…


----------



## Frankeneinstein (Aug 21, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> Vietnam protestors like Jane Fonda and John Kerry were Patriots


So would "Hanoi Jane" consider Kennedy to be "Hitler"?


rightwinger said:


> They recognized that we had no business being in Vietnam and that we were being lied to


or did they just point fingers at those they politically opposed?


rightwinger said:


> The Traitors were those who wrapped themselves in the flag and promised quick victory while they proceeded to get 60,000 Americans killed


that's all well and good if you want to pin that on those who started and sustained the war, but what do you call the ones who ended the war?, the ones who did what "Hanoi Jane" and John Kerry couldn't and didn't do...
..."HJ" calls them Hitler, while sparing those who had no part in ending the war, this is just the type of finger pointing the left excels at.


----------



## Mac-7 (Aug 21, 2022)

gipper said:


> No. Immigration has been a problem for decades. *Did you forget Ronnie’s amnesty? W tried to give an amnesty too.*
> 
> Ds represent the interests of their donors, just as Rs do. This will blow your mind…their donors are the same people.


I didnt forget

It was a mistake that bleeding heart libs are eager to repeat over and over


----------



## rightwinger (Aug 21, 2022)

Frankeneinstein said:


> So would "Hanoi Jane" consider Kennedy to be "Hitler"?
> 
> or did they just point fingers at those they politically opposed?
> 
> ...



Tactfully asking them to end the war did not seem to be working


----------



## rightwinger (Aug 21, 2022)

Mac-7 said:


> As much proof as any informed person needs
> 
> Where is your ironclad “proof” that the war was wrong?
> 
> L


2 million needlessly died


----------



## Frankeneinstein (Aug 21, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> If that was the case, where was the world domination


One need only look at a map from 1945 through 1980 to see how much redder the world became through the policies of appeasement, communism was metastasizing and the politics of "HJ" was a placebo that contributed to its spread.


rightwinger said:


> when the Communists won in 1975?


the American communists, but just 5 years later a man would come along whose wrath the commies are feeling to this day


rightwinger said:


> All the fear mongering that kept us in the war for ten years and killed over a million people never happened


Do you thank Nixon and Ford for putting an end to that or did/do ya point fingers?...but anyway it was happening, until of course an American hero put an end to it...an end that still has the smattering of communists gnashing their teeth at the mere mention of his name.


----------



## Frankeneinstein (Aug 21, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> Tactfully asking them to end the war did not seem to be working


You're referring to the "hitlers"? and not the one who did actually stop the war? is that right?...now do you believe "HJ" considered Kennedy to be hitler?


----------



## Frankeneinstein (Aug 21, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> 2 million needlessly died


Yeah but in the communist world that is a small number even during times of peace...And you have yet to deify the man who put an end to all your suffering during that time...give him his props bro


----------



## rightwinger (Aug 21, 2022)

Frankeneinstein said:


> Yeah but in the communist world that is a small number even during times of peace...And you have yet to deify the man who put an end to all your suffering during that time...give him his props bro


To the millions of families who lost loved ones, that is not small

We killed millions just so they wouldn’t turn communist


----------



## Frankeneinstein (Aug 21, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> To the millions of families who lost loved ones, that is not small


It is in the communist world


rightwinger said:


> We killed millions just so they wouldn’t turn communist


Thanks to men like John Kerry


----------



## rightwinger (Aug 21, 2022)

Frankeneinstein said:


> It is in the communist world
> 
> Thanks to men like John Kerry


John Kerry was a Patriot


----------



## AZrailwhale (Aug 21, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> No you were not going to “win it”
> You would have been tied up in Vietnam for decades suffering extended guerilla  warfare


Nope. Take out the North Vietnamese government and the Russians and Chinese would have had no one to ship the massive amounts of arms, missiles, ammo and food to.  The only reason the war lasted past 1965 was that the Communist Bloc was completely supporting North Vietnam.  The PRVN couldn't even grow enough food to feed itself, let alone prosecute the war.


----------



## rightwinger (Aug 21, 2022)

AZrailwhale said:


> Nope. Take out the North Vietnamese government and the Russians and Chinese would have had no one to ship the massive amounts of arms, missiles, ammo and food to.  The only reason the was lasted past 1965 was that the Communist Bloc was completely supporting North Vietnam.  The PRVN couldn't even grow enough food to feed itself, let alone prosecute the war.


They maintained a war for 20 years
We were not wearing them out


----------



## Mac-7 (Aug 21, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> 2 million needlessly died


Sez you

How many innocent people died in WWII?

By your logic all of those deaths were needless if we had simply given up peacefully to the Axis powers


----------



## Frankeneinstein (Aug 21, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> John Kerry was a Patriot


As were all the men who fought the communist scourge, that's why I said it was "thanks to him" and men like him...
...and it is typical that a white liberal would point the fickle finger at his political opponents while holding up those who actually committed the offenses you point at as patriotic...
it is white liberal privilege that allows for this type of behavior and blinds the left from the obviousness double speak it engages in...
...and ya never got around to the "HJ" question, probably just an oversight.


----------



## rightwinger (Aug 21, 2022)

Mac-7 said:


> Sez you
> 
> How many innocent people died in WWII?
> 
> By your logic all of those deaths were needless if we had simply given up peacefully to the Axis powers



If we supported Vietnamese independence after WWII none of the next 30 years would have been necessary

Instead, we sold them out to the French


----------



## AZrailwhale (Aug 21, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> You missed the lesson from Korea didn’t you?
> 
> Occupying the North would have brought China into the conflict


China could not even defeat Vietnam in the Sino-Vietnamese War of 1979.  It would have stood no chance against the ARVN supported by the US.  The Chinese knew this, the PLA was a light infantry army that hadn't seen combat since 1952 and was far less capable than the soldiers of the Korean War who were battle-hardened veterans of the Chinese Civil War.


----------



## Mac-7 (Aug 21, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> If we supported Vietnamese independence after WWII none of the next 30 years would have been necessary
> 
> Instead, we sold them out to the French


There is some truth to that

Unfortunately the early years of the Cold War were chaotic with the Soviet Union threatening to bury us and Uncle Ho appeared to be a Stalin puppet

So we supported the French against the communists


----------



## AZrailwhale (Aug 21, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> Nixon scuttled LBJs attempt at peace before the 68 election


LBJ's only possible peace would have been total capitulation to the North.  He spent his entire presidency "sending messages" to the PRVN with American blood trying to convince them if they'd just stop their invasion of the RVN he'd pull all the American troops out.  McNamara said in his book Vietnamese War that he and LBJ had no desire to defeat the PRVN.


----------



## Frankeneinstein (Aug 21, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> They maintained a war for 20 years


Its called "a war of attrition", and because the left wing government weren't the ones dying in it,  everyone else pays the price while the lefties appropriate the seats and levers of power at little or no expense to themselves ...
the people of Nam were nothing more than their shield much like today's minorities in America are the white liberal privilege class' shield...
...no matter what crisis presents itself white liberals are the only ones who do not pay a price for it, as long as there is strife and they're not held accountable they will continue to reap power and then point that infamous finger at others.


rightwinger said:


> We were not wearing them out


Yeah, they seemed to enjoy it.


----------



## AZrailwhale (Aug 21, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> You can’t destroy guerilla forces.  They just disappear into the brush looking for an opportunity.  The Viet Cong were not going away....especially with the US forces out of the way.
> 
> Same goes for the Taliban


After Tet, the Viet Cong were completely destroyed.  The invasion force was entirely NVA.  Today, you won't find a single Viet Cong official anywhere in the Vietnamese government.


----------



## gipper (Aug 21, 2022)

Mac-7 said:


> There is some truth to that
> 
> Unfortunately the early years of the Cold War were chaotic with the Soviet Union threatening to bury us and Uncle Ho appeared to be a Stalin puppet
> 
> So we supported the French against the communists


Which was a dumb mistake resulting in lots of death and destruction.


----------



## AZrailwhale (Aug 21, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> Took a licking but never disappeared
> If they were so destroyed and there was no threat from the North......Why did S Vietnam fall like a cheap folding table?
> 
> They were provided the best equipment, supplies and training
> But they were an inept force


Because people like you in the US Congress violated out promise to support the RVN after the war was over and to supply material and air support if the PRVN violated the Paris Peace Accords.  The democrats controlling the US government cut the RVN's throat by betraying them.


----------



## Mac-7 (Aug 21, 2022)

gipper said:


> Which was a dumb mistake resulting in lots of death and destruction.


It was only dump if you believe communist propaganda


----------



## AZrailwhale (Aug 21, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> After JFK was assassinated he reached martyred status. Of course JFK would have KNOWN better than escalate Vietnam
> 
> But he would have the same facts as LBJ, same advisors.  There were not many in EITHER party advocating we stay out of the conflict. I don’t see why JFK would have been one of them


JFK was a fan of asymmetrical warfare.  He would have fought the war with advisors and Special Forces.  You can see that with the Bay of Pigs. he refused to commit US troops unless the Cuban people rose up and supported the exiles in their invasion.  He would have done the same thing in Vietnam; given the RVN the means to fight their own war and let the chips fall where they might.


----------



## ChemEngineer (Aug 21, 2022)

gipper said:


> No. Immigration has been a problem for decades. Did you forget Ronnie’s amnesty? W tried to give an amnesty too.
> 
> Ds represent the interests of their donors, just as Rs do. This will blow your mind…their donors are the same people.



You have nothing but lies to offer.  Nothing.
1. Republicans attempt to appease Democrats with gestures like a one-time amnesty.
Appeasing evil never works. It only emboldens them/you.
2.  George Soros gives ONLY to the unscrupulous Left. ONLY to them, such as financing district attorneys who release criminals with no bond so they can go out and kill or rob again.
3. Teachers' unions are overwhelmingly far Leftists and give 95% or more of their contributions to Democrats who hypocritically preach public schools while sending their own spawn to private schools, as did the Clintons, the Gores and the Obamas.


If you spoke the truth, you would no longer be a Leftist.


----------



## ChemEngineer (Aug 21, 2022)

AZrailwhale said:


> Because people like you in the US Congress violated out promise to support the RVN after the war was over and to supply material and air support if the PRVN violated the Paris Peace Accords.  The democrats controlling the US government cut the RVN's throat by betraying them.


*Dead nuts on.

Hanoi John Kerry encouraged the communists, claiming all Americans were "war criminals."  He should be hung for treason. Instead, Democrats lionized this thug.
The Democrat congress cut off promised funding to the South and the great exodus began. There were no "boat people" during the war, only after Kerry and Fonda and Democrats cut the south's throat.
These are the same people who smeared Vietnam Vets screeching,  "SO, how many babies did YOU kill when you were over there?"

None.  The baby killers are today's Democrats promoting abortion.
67,000,000 killed and counting, proudly.*


----------



## Frankeneinstein (Aug 21, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> John Kerry was a Patriot


By his own admission he was a war criminal


----------



## Rigby5 (Aug 21, 2022)

longly said:


> *In science, one verifies one's observations by submitting them to peer review. I remember something very clearly from the Vietnam War, but liberal friends and acquaintances tell me it never happened. I  have done internet research, but I can't find anything in regards to this issue. Now I know she made those comments before the internet, but they should be in the history of the time.  So here is the question for all  the boomer generation that may be on this site: I remember Jane Fonda praising the Khmer Rouge for their victory in  Cambodia; do you remember it?   Do you have a source that would back up my memories?*



Your memory is wrong.
First of all, the Khmer Rouge did not take over Cambodia until 1975.
The Jane Fonda visit to Vietnam were in 1974.
So she could not have praised the Khmer Rouge in any of the Vietnam trip footage.
And since Fonda never went to Cambodia, she would never have known anything about the Khmer Rouge.


----------



## Rigby5 (Aug 21, 2022)

White 6 said:


> How bout this found with DuckDuckGo:
> Even in 1979, when the world was aware of the millions of Vietnamese and Cambodians murdered and starved to death by their communist victors, when even Joan Baez protested the Khmer Rouge slaughter, Jane Fonda refused to join in. As she then told the National Press Club, she was unable to confirm the accuracy of the charges.
> 
> This is more upsetting:
> ...



That is ridiculously wrong.

First of all you can NOT combine Vietnamese and Cambodians.
The VC and Khmer Rouge had nothing in common, and it was the VC who eventually fought and defeated the Khmer Rouge.

Second is that no one was "aware" of anything in Southeast Asia by 1979.

Third is that is it CORRECT that all use soldiers in Vietnam were guilty of war crimes.  The French had been defeated by the VC and negotiated an international peace accord with them when they surrendered in 1954.  
The internationally approved negotiations required a nation wide plebiscite election in 1955, which US illegally prohibited.  The US had no legal jurisdiction to be in Vietnam at all, and Diem was an illegal military dictator who had no authority to being in US troops.  The legal leader of South Vietnam was Bau Dai, not Diem.

Jane Fonda not only was correct, but was the only one who had nothing to gain.
She gave up a considerable amount of money should could easily have made, by do what was right.
What Johnson and Nixon did on Vietnam was not just wrong, but criminal.


----------



## Rigby5 (Aug 21, 2022)

Frankeneinstein said:


> By his own admission he was a war criminal



How could Kerry be a war criminal when he was against the illegal war, and helped end it?


----------



## Rigby5 (Aug 21, 2022)

Hossfly said:


> LBJ and his goons were a disaster and I know hundreds of guys who would have liked to blast Fonda's brains out, including me. She was a traitor who caused POWs to be tortured and beaten to death.



There were no real POWs because the US did not treat any VC captives legally as POWs, and the US was constantly committing war crimes, like burning and bombing villages, the Mai Lai massacre, agent orange chemical warfare, etc.


----------



## Rigby5 (Aug 21, 2022)

White 6 said:


> She could have protested over here in the streets all she wanted.  She became a traitor the moment she landed in Viet Nam.  I don't pick our enemies and never have.  I was trained for the enforcement side of the equation.  Those troops mostly did not choose to go, but they went and in the field deserved every bit of the support of the American people.  She is no patriot and never was.  When you go out of your way to support the enemy of the troops in the field, in the country where they are fighting and even use forced, captured troops of your country for your propaganda message against your own troops, your just a lousy traitor, deserving of the scorn she rightly deserved and still deserves.



Wrong.
Does not matter what country anyone just happens to come from.
The US soldiers new they were committing war crimes, while the VC were just trying to repel illegal invaders.
The US troops are NOT "my" troops and were always the "enemy".
They should never have been allowed to return to the US after all the crimes then committed.


----------



## Frankeneinstein (Aug 21, 2022)

Rigby5 said:


> How could Kerry be a war criminal when he was against the illegal war, and helped end it?


I didn't ask him and he didn't include that in his confession...and Nixon/Ford ended the war not Kerry...and what prevents a war criminal of kerry's ilk from "helping to end it"?

But to answer your question directly, you can commit war crimes and then claim you are against such practices to appease those who sit in judgement and can make good use of you for making that claim.


----------



## White 6 (Aug 21, 2022)

Rigby5 said:


> That is ridiculously wrong.
> 
> First of all you can NOT combine Vietnamese and Cambodians.
> The VC and Khmer Rouge had nothing in common, and it was the VC who eventually fought and defeated the Khmer Rouge.
> ...


Once you have troops in the field, civilian entertainers, can leave that crap at the ocean's edge, or they deserve the judgement of the military and their countrymen.  Hanoi Jane will always bear that judgement.


----------



## White 6 (Aug 21, 2022)

Rigby5 said:


> Wrong.
> Does not matter what country anyone just happens to come from.
> The US soldiers new they were committing war crimes, while the VC were just trying to repel illegal invaders.
> The US troops are NOT "my" troops and were always the "enemy".
> They should never have been allowed to return to the US after all the crimes then committed.


You are quite the charmer.  Glad we never met.


----------



## Frankeneinstein (Aug 21, 2022)

Rigby5 said:


> What Johnson and Nixon did on Vietnam was not just wrong, but criminal.


And yet fonda reserved "hitler" for Nixon who ended the war...was Kennedy a war criminal?


----------



## Frankeneinstein (Aug 21, 2022)

Rigby5 said:


> The US soldiers new they were committing war crimes, while the VC were just trying to repel illegal invaders.
> The US troops are NOT "my" troops and were always the "enemy".
> They should never have been allowed to return to the US after all the crimes then committed.


Does this include Kerry?


----------



## Frankeneinstein (Aug 21, 2022)

Rigby5 said:


> The US troops are NOT "my" troops and were always the "enemy".


that is pretty much the accusation being leveled at "HJ"...I will give you admiration points for admitting what the rest of the left will not confess to.


Rigby5 said:


> They should never have been allowed to return to the US after all the crimes then committed.


Kerry included I presume.


----------



## gipper (Aug 21, 2022)

Mac-7 said:


> It was only dump if you believe communist propaganda


Yeah all of Southeast Asia went communist. So did Australia!  The commies took over everything. That domino effect really happened!!!


Lmfao


----------



## gipper (Aug 21, 2022)

ChemEngineer said:


> You have nothing but lies to offer.  Nothing.
> 1. Republicans attempt to appease Democrats with gestures like a one-time amnesty.
> Appeasing evil never works. It only emboldens them/you.
> 2.  George Soros gives ONLY to the unscrupulous Left. ONLY to them, such as financing district attorneys who release criminals with no bond so they can go out and kill or rob again.
> ...


?


----------



## Mac-7 (Aug 21, 2022)

gipper said:


> *Yeah all of Southeast Asia went communist*. So did Australia!  The commies took over everything. That domino effect really happened!!!
> 
> 
> Lmfao


It didnt because America fought the communists to a standstill


----------



## gipper (Aug 22, 2022)

Mac-7 said:


> It didnt because America fought the communists to a standstill


You are a deamer and a warmongering statist.


----------



## Mac-7 (Aug 22, 2022)

gipper said:


> You are a deamer and a warmongering statist.


So you have run out of arguments and only have personal insults left


----------



## gipper (Aug 22, 2022)

Mac-7 said:


> So you have run out of arguments and only have personal insults left


My argument was made and you ignored it. You foolishly believe the domino theory even though it’s obviously propaganda disproven decades ago.


----------



## Smokin' OP (Aug 22, 2022)

Gotta fight the commies.
Now we trade with Vietnam.
Look around your house or your next shopping purchase, a lot were made by the people that killed Americans.

U.S. goods and services trade with Vietnam totaled an estimated* $92.2 billion* in 2020. Exports were $12.1 billion; imports were $80.1 billion. The U.S. goods and services trade deficit with Vietnam was $68.0 billion in 2020. Vietnam is currently our 10th largest goods trading partner with $89.5 billion.

Yet *STILL *have issues with Cuba................60 years later, they didn't kill Americans.


----------



## Mac-7 (Aug 22, 2022)

gipper said:


> My argument was made and you ignored it.


Meaning that if people agree with you fine

But if not civility ends and you move on to personal insults instead


----------



## Mac-7 (Aug 22, 2022)

Smokin' OP said:


> Gotta fight the commies.
> Now we trade with Vietnam.
> Look around your house or your next shopping purchase, a lot were made by the people that killed Americans.
> 
> ...


It sounds as if you are pissed that we arent still at war with Vietnam


----------



## Smokin' OP (Aug 22, 2022)

Mac-7 said:


> It sounds as if you are pissed that we arent still at war with Vietnam


WOW, *IS *that what you got out of that?
NO, dumbass.

Cuba is 90 miles from the US.
Vietnam is 8300 miles from the US.

Why are we trading and traveling 8300 miles away but not 90miles away?


Vietnam Vacation​Vibrant, eclectic and exciting, Vietnam is a rapidly developing nation that’s filled with dreams for the future and reminders of the past.

Vietnam Hotel + Flights​Starting at $108 a night, there are 14372 hotels to choose from here. It’s easy to book accommodations with a little help from Expedia, and there are great savings to be made if you bundle your hotel and flight (as well as incredible experiences) into one of our Vietnam Vacation Packages. Can’t wait to explore some of Vietnam’s historical attractions? Add a Hoi An Ancient Town tour to your package for some unbeatable local knowledge.


----------



## Mac-7 (Aug 22, 2022)

Smokin' OP said:


> WOW, *IS *that what you got out of that?
> NO, dumbass.
> 
> Cuba is 90 miles from the US.
> ...


We still have issues with Cuba that do not exist with Vietnam

My impression is that Ho Chi Min is dead and Vietnam is a communist country in name only

Cuba on the other hand is still ruled by the same tight dictatorship that it was in 1963

That could be a misimpression on my part because I dont follow events in Cuba at all

But other than cigars and baseball players what does cuba have to offer the US?


----------



## Smokin' OP (Aug 22, 2022)

Mac-7 said:


> We still have issues with Cuba that do not exist with Vietnam


Really?
Like what?
THIS:
Vietnam systematically suppresses basic civil and political rights. The government, under the one-party rule of the Communist Party of Vietnam (CPV), severely restricts freedom of expression, association, peaceful assembly, movement, and religion.

Prohibitions continued in 2021 on the formation or operation of independent unions and any other organizations or groups considered a threat to the Communist Party’s monopoly on power. Authorities blocked access to sensitive political websites and social media pages, and pressured social media and telecommunications companies to remove or restrict content critical of the government or the ruling party.

Critics of the government or party face police intimidation, harassment, restricted movement, arbitrary arrest and detention, and imprisonment.


Mac-7 said:


> My impression is that Ho Chi Min is dead and Vietnam is a communist country in name only


See above.


Mac-7 said:


> Cuba on the other hand is still ruled by the same tight dictatorship that it was in 1963
> 
> That could be a misimpression on my part because I dont follow events in Cuba at all
> 
> But other than cigars and baseball players what does cuba have to offer the US?


The same applies to Vietnam.......................8300 miles away.


----------



## Mac-7 (Aug 22, 2022)

Smokin' OP said:


> Really?
> Like what?
> THIS:
> Vietnam systematically suppresses basic civil and political rights. The government, under the one-party rule of the Communist Party of Vietnam (CPV), severely restricts freedom of expression, association, peaceful assembly, movement, and religion.
> ...


One advantage Vietnam has in my opinion is that they are not allied with china

We should be trading more with Vietnam and less with China


----------



## rightwinger (Aug 22, 2022)

Frankeneinstein said:


> By his own admission he was a war criminal


----------



## Smokin' OP (Aug 22, 2022)

Mac-7 said:


> One advantage Vietnam has in my opinion is that they are not allied with china
> 
> We should be trading more with Vietnam and less with China


Diversified sources should be implemented.

Your dear leader pulled out of one, that didn't involve China at all.

The *Trans-Pacific Partnership* (*TPP*), or *Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement*, was a highly contested proposed trade agreement between 12 Pacific Rim economies, Australia, Brunei, Canada, Chile, Japan, Malaysia, Mexico, New Zealand, Peru, Singapore, Vietnam, and the United States.

After taking office, the newly elected President Donald Trump formally withdrew the United States from TPP in January 2017, therefore the TPP could not be ratified as required and did not enter into force. The remaining countries negotiated a new trade agreement called Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership, which incorporates most of the provisions of the TPP and which entered into force on 30 December 2018.

But not only did Trump bail out US farmers to the tune of $48 billion but signed a trade agreement with China INCREASING trade by $200 billion a year.


----------



## Mac-7 (Aug 22, 2022)

Smokin' OP said:


> Diversified sources should be implemented.
> 
> Your dear leader pulled out of one, that didn't involve China at all.
> 
> ...


TPP has a poison pill in that international court could overrule US laws


----------



## Smokin' OP (Aug 22, 2022)

Mac-7 said:


> TPP has a poison pill in that international court could overrule US laws


WTF?
THAT is a new one.
How would that even happen, or WHEN did it happen, ever?
On a trade agreement?


----------



## Mac-7 (Aug 22, 2022)

Smokin' OP said:


> WTF?
> THAT is a new one.
> How would that even happen, or WHEN did it happen, ever?
> On a trade agreement?


It was reported

Which is just the sort of America Last policy preferred by obama





__





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					www.huffpost.com


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## Smokin' OP (Aug 22, 2022)

Mac-7 said:


> It was reported
> 
> Which is just the sort of America Last policy preferred by obama
> 
> ...


Not just Obama.

Conceived of in the 1950s, the system was intended to benefit both developing nations and the foreign companies that sought to invest in them. The companies would gain a fair, neutral referee if a rogue regime seized their property or discriminated against them in favor of domestic companies. And the countries would gain the roads or hospitals or industries that those foreign corporations would, as a result, feel confident building.

This system is already in place, operating behind closed doors in office buildings and conference rooms in cities around the world. Known as investor-state dispute settlement, or ISDS, it is written into a vast network of treaties that govern international trade and investment, including NAFTA and the Trans-Pacific Partnership, which Congress must soon decide whether to ratify.

But over the last two decades, ISDS has morphed from a rarely used last resort, designed for egregious cases of state theft or blatant discrimination, into a powerful tool that corporations brandish ever more frequently, often against broad public policies that they claim crimp profits.

Because the system is so secretive, it is not possible to know the total number of ISDS cases, but lawyers in the field say it is skyrocketing. Indeed, of the almost 700 publicly known cases across the last half century, more than a tenth were filed just last year.


A Dubai real estate mogul and former business partner of Donald Trump was sentenced to prison for collaborating on a deal that would swindle the Egyptian people out of millions of dollars — but then he turned to ISDS and got his prison sentence wiped away.

Regardless, information I, as well as many others didn't know existed.
Politicians and their bankroll (corporations) certainly do.


----------



## rupol2000 (Aug 22, 2022)

I recently wrote on this subject. The genocide in Cambodia is the fault of the hippies. The fact that the United States is now in the ass is a direct consequence of the shameful surrender of Vietnam. It wasn't over yet, but then US also fucked by  Taliban, and it even without hippi, biden and trump was enough


----------



## rupol2000 (Aug 22, 2022)

Radicals like Jane Fonda, David Dellinger, and Tom Hayden stormed the country, denouncing anyone who opposed communist victory in Cambodia and Vietnam. On the campuses, in the media, and in Congress, it was taken on faith that a Khmer Rouge victory would bring peace and enlightened leadership to Cambodia. American leftists were Pol Pot's cheerleaders - The Boston Globe


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## Frankeneinstein (Aug 22, 2022)

rightwinger said:


>


nice! a tapping out emoji


----------



## Frankeneinstein (Aug 22, 2022)

rightwinger said:


>


btw, why did ya substitute "Hanoi Jane" with Kerry, what did he have to do with this? did you feel it would be easier to get away with?


----------



## Frankeneinstein (Aug 23, 2022)

rightwinger said:


>


UH-OH
John Kerry’s War Crimes​by Cliff Kincaid on May 24, 2004
Print:    Share:


> Audio Player
> 
> 
> The Washington Post has run two articles over three days highlighting how John Kerry has criticized the Bush administration’s handling of the Iraqi prisoner abuse story.  Kerry thinks Donald Rumsfeld should go and that Bush should take responsibility.  In both of these stories, however, the Post failed to mention that Kerry himself admitted committing war crimes in Vietnam.
> To his credit, Tim Russert confronted Kerry with his own words from 1971 on Meet the Press.  Kerry had said, during an April 18, 1971, appearance on Meet the Press: “There are all kinds of atrocities and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free-fire zones.  I conducted harassment and interdiction fire.  I used 50-caliber machine guns which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people.  I took part in search-and-destroy missions, in the burning of villages.  All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare.  All of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down.”  Kerry said those who condoned or engaged in such activities were war criminals.


HONESTY IS THE BEST POLICY
"Asked about using the phrase, “war criminals,” Kerry replied that the words “were honest"


----------



## rightwinger (Aug 23, 2022)

Frankeneinstein said:


> UH-OH
> John Kerry’s War Crimes​by Cliff Kincaid on May 24, 2004
> Print:    Share:
> 
> ...


Good article that shows why John Kerry turned against the War. 
He saw first hand the abuses of military tactics he was ordered to use


----------



## rightwinger (Aug 23, 2022)

Frankeneinstein said:


> btw, why did ya substitute "Hanoi Jane" with Kerry, what did he have to do with this? did you feel it would be easier to get away with?


Both Fonda and Kerry were American Patriots fighting an unjust war that unnecessarily killed millions


----------



## Correll (Aug 23, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> Both Fonda and Kerry were American Patriots fighting an unjust war that unnecessarily killed millions




You got any anger for the Communists who were waging war against US, so that they could export and grow their totalitarian system, for their dream of world conquest?


You know, that ones that were actually killing US?


----------



## Frankeneinstein (Aug 23, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> Good article that shows why John Kerry turned against the War.


is that the spin now?


rightwinger said:


> He saw first hand the abuses of military tactics he was ordered to use


and then confessed to being a war criminal himself


----------



## rightwinger (Aug 23, 2022)

Correll said:


> You got any anger for the Communists who were waging war against US, so that they could export and grow their totalitarian system, for their dream of world conquest?
> 
> 
> You know, that ones that were actually killing US?



We had a chance to support Ho Chi Minh’s quest for independence and we turned him away and supported French Colonialism 

We pushed them to Communism

The RW Fear Mongering about what would happen if Vietnam turned Communist never panned out and Vietnam is now a stable country


----------



## rightwinger (Aug 23, 2022)

Frankeneinstein said:


> is that the spin now?
> 
> and then confessed to being a war criminal himself



He admitted he participated in what the US was doing and that  it was criminal

That is why he opposed it when he came home and gave a first hand account of what was happening


----------



## Frankeneinstein (Aug 23, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> Both Fonda and Kerry were American Patriots fighting an unjust war that unnecessarily killed millions


so if being an admitted war criminal is Patriotic who really did anything wrong here? btw, you make no mention of the men who stopped the war...any reason for that?


----------



## Correll (Aug 23, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> We had a chance to support Ho Chi Minh’s quest for independence and we turned him away and supported French Colonialism
> 
> We pushed them to Communism
> 
> The RW Fear Mongering about what would happen if Vietnam turned Communist never panned out and Vietnam is now a stable country




So, in YOUR opinion,  it's America's fault that the Soviets supported a war thousands of miles from their home, sending vast amounts of weapons and advisors to kill and maim our people for their ideological purposes.

THEIR motivations and  policies and war making you have no anger with.


It's fine when THEY do it to US, but it is wrong if WE do it to THEM.


And you libs wonder why we question your Patriotism. lol.


----------



## Frankeneinstein (Aug 23, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> He admitted he participated in what the US was doing and that it was criminal


TRANSLATION: OK so he admitted to being a war criminal


rightwinger said:


> That is why he opposed it when he came home and gave a first hand account of what was happening


and there it is, a white liberal committing an atrocity and sharing his guilt with the rest of America...it is the defining characteristic of white liberalism.


----------



## rightwinger (Aug 23, 2022)

Correll said:


> So, in YOUR opinion,  it's America's fault that the Soviets supported a war thousands of miles from their home, sending vast amounts of weapons and advisors to kill and maim our people for their ideological purposes.
> 
> THEIR motivations and  policies and war making you have no anger with.
> 
> ...



Like I posted  earlier, we turned a Civil War into a Cold War
Millions died because of it


----------



## Correll (Aug 23, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> Like I posted  earlier, we turned a Civil War into a Cold War
> Millions died because of it




Yes, I get it. WE did it. The Soviets who were just as far away, and interferred in the "Civil War" for COLD WAR reasons,  bear no responsibility, becuase of some reason you are not sharing. 

To be clear, I was restating YOUR positioin as I understand it. I disagree with that completely.  I tend to be more sympathetic to MY nation and harsher to our ENEMIES that kill and main US, in my judgements, while you libs do the opposite. 


That is my point. I don't really know where to go from there. Oh, I got an idea. But let me see if you have anything to say to this first.


----------



## rightwinger (Aug 23, 2022)

Correll said:


> Yes, I get it. WE did it. The Soviets who were just as far away, and interferred in the "Civil War" for COLD WAR reasons,  bear no responsibility, becuase of some reason you are not sharing.
> 
> To be clear, I was restating YOUR positioin as I understand it. I disagree with that completely.  I tend to be more sympathetic to MY nation and harsher to our ENEMIES that kill and main US, in my judgements, while you libs do the opposite.
> 
> ...


Yes WE did it


----------



## alexa (Aug 23, 2022)

Frankeneinstein said:


> so if being an admitted war criminal is Patriotic who really did anything wrong here? btw, you make no mention of the men who stopped the war...any reason for that?


The Vietnam war was to my knowledge the only major war fought with free journalism.  People had what was going on coming into their sitting rooms and it most certainly was not a moral sight.  It was not possible for Americans to pretend it was anything other than what it was.  Since then countries have made sure that the Press do not have this freedom.  If they want to report on a war they must do it how they are told and what they are told.  If they insist on going independently they have a risk of being shot.  So Vietnam stopped honest reporting from war zones.  We now hear everything sterilised with our side as the good guy.  The support of the bravery and integrity of journalists who investigated things and who let the public know the truth has gone....and in the US there appears now to be two mindsets.  The Republican and the Liberal.  This site seems to be massively Republican but it would appear that everyone who is a Republican thinks one way and blames these horrible people called liberals for everything that goes wrong.....maybe they do the same but there does not seem to be much room for independent thought.


----------



## Correll (Aug 23, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> Yes WE did it




Thanks for  your clear position. Question:  Do you hold America to a different standard than the Soviets, is that from your hate of America or  your love of communism?



Second question. Why the pass for the North Vietnamese? For a "civil war" their actions seem a lot like invading a neighboring country. Would you support a North Korean invasion of South Korea, you know, because "civil war"?


----------



## rightwinger (Aug 23, 2022)

Correll said:


> Thanks for  your clear position. Question:  Do you hold America to a different standard than the Soviets, is that from your hate of America or  your love of communism?
> 
> 
> 
> Second question. Why the pass for the North Vietnamese? For a "civil war" their actions seem a lot like invading a neighboring country. Would you support a North Korean invasion of South Korea, you know, because "civil war"?



I have ALWAYS held America to stricter standards


----------



## rightwinger (Aug 23, 2022)

Correll said:


> Second question. Why the pass for the North Vietnamese? For a "civil war" their actions seem a lot like invading a neighboring country. Would you support a North Korean invasion of South Korea, you know, because "civil war"?



Good question

Lets look back in history to see why a Civil War was necessary

After the French withdrew from Vietnam, it was arbitrarily drawn up as North and South. The US agreed to an election in five years to set up a new Government. When the five years was up, it was evident that the North and Ho Chi Minh would prevail in an election

So the US wouldn’t allow an election


----------



## Correll (Aug 23, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> I have ALWAYS held America to stricter standards




Got it. It is your anti-Americanism talking.


----------



## Correll (Aug 23, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> Good question
> 
> Lets look back in history to see why a Civil War was necessary
> 
> ...




So, again, you side with America's enemies. At least you are consistent. 


I haven't read the whole thread RW, out of curiosity, did you at any point make any comment on the tyranny or oppression or mass murder of the North Vietnamese government? Any negative comment on them in any way?


----------



## Frankeneinstein (Aug 23, 2022)

alexa said:


> The Vietnam war was to my knowledge the only major war fought with free journalism. People had what was going on coming into their sitting rooms and it most certainly was not a moral sight. It was not possible for Americans to pretend it was anything other than what it was. Since then countries have made sure that the Press do not have this freedom. If they want to report on a war they must do it how they are told and what they are told. If they insist on going independently they have a risk of being shot. So Vietnam stopped honest reporting from war zones. We now hear everything sterilised with our side as the good guy. The support of the bravery and integrity of journalists who investigated things and who let the public know the truth has gone....and in the US there appears now to be two mindsets. The Republican and the Liberal. This site seems to be massively Republican but it would appear that everyone who is a Republican thinks one way and blames these horrible people called liberals for everything that goes wrong.....maybe they do the same but there does not seem to be much room for independent thought.


See the problem here? we started out with Fonda and when that didn't pan out for her side the goal posts started moving and now we are at 'journalist in the sitting rooms', so what about fonda? would her view include Kennedy as Hitler...just your thoughts on it if you don't know....what about the men who actually stopped the war? why can't I get a straight answer for these questions? is it because there is no straight answer?


> We now hear everything sterilised with our side as the good guy.


Was Kerry a good guy? his admission to committing war crimes, means he can always be brought before a tribunal, council, court, commission if he does not play nice with charlie


> This site seems to be massively Republican but it would appear that everyone who is a Republican thinks one way and blames these horrible people called liberals for everything that goes wrong.....maybe they do the same but there does not seem to be much room for independent thought.


I'm a democrat, vote democrat across the board in every election and voted in the democratic primaries here on 6/28...
... I almost pulled the switch for kerry in 04 [I actually had my mind made up for a month and was in the booth with my hand on his name when I decided to give bush one more shot, big mistake and swore I would never vote republican again] and as a democrat I blame "these horrible people called liberals" [white liberals to be exact] for what they have done to my party.


----------



## Frankeneinstein (Aug 23, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> Good article


great article


rightwinger said:


> that shows why John Kerry turned against the War.


yes it does, kept/keeps him from facing a war crimes tribunal/commission


rightwinger said:


> He saw first hand the abuses of military tactics he was ordered to use


 Was that actually in his war crimes confession?
now how bout the men who stopped that war?


----------



## alexa (Aug 24, 2022)

Frankeneinstein said:


> See the problem here? we started out with Fonda and when that didn't pan out for her side the goal posts started moving and now we are at 'journalist in the sitting rooms',


You started on Fonda.  I started watching the atrocities on my tv in my sitting room.  Fonda did not come in for me till decades later and meant nothing.

I live in the UK.  We were on marches all the time against your war in Vietnam.  We were burning your flag regularly on our streets.  There was one time the police were concerned what we were going to break into to your Embassy.  The Vietnam war as far as I am aware, as I said before, was the one war where journalists had the ability to bring us the truth which we all saw in our sitting rooms thanks to the invention of televisions.  What we saw disgusted us and bit by bit the people of the United States as well despite their people fighting in it.  Wars could not be fought if the people knew what you were doing.  Since then Governments particularly the US have made sure journalists do not have the ability to bring the truth to the people.


----------



## Frankeneinstein (Aug 24, 2022)

alexa said:


> You started on Fonda. I started watching the atrocities on my tv in my sitting room. Fonda did not come in for me till decades later and meant nothing.


Which means you had nothing of substance to add to the topic


alexa said:


> I live in the UK. We were on marches all the time against your war in Vietnam. We were burning your flag regularly on our streets.


We don't blame you...What else is there to do over there?


alexa said:


> There was one time the police were concerned what we were going to break into to your Embassy.


So why didn't ya break in? I wish ya would have


alexa said:


> The Vietnam war as far as I am aware, as I said before, was the one war where journalists had the ability to bring us the truth which we all saw in our sitting rooms thanks to the invention of televisions. What we saw disgusted us and bit by bit the people of the United States as well despite their people fighting in it. Wars could not be fought if the people knew what you were doing. Since then Governments particularly the US have made sure journalists do not have the ability to bring the truth to the people.


so would Fonda have...wait, what was the thing with Fonda again? Sounds like you owe a debt of gratitude to Nixon and Ford and need to thank the men who stopped that war, [That is assuming you were being honest in your post] and while you're at it you need to thank Trump for instigating that whole Brexit thing.  You'd still be there if he hadn't thrown his weight behind the effort


----------



## alexa (Aug 24, 2022)

You are a lonely man who comes on forums to pretend he is someone.  Waste of time.


----------



## Frankeneinstein (Aug 24, 2022)

alexa said:


> You are a lonely man


Have never been lonely a day in my life, in fact I yearn for alone time quite often, my wish is that Iwould like to die in the desert and when they find my skeleton it would or will be holding a bottle of becks in one hand and a fishing pole in the other.


alexa said:


> who comes on forums to pretend he is someone.


So you're not buying into the whole "Frankeneinstein" thing Lexy?



alexa said:


> Waste of time.


There is actually a "TAP OUT" emoji for that


----------



## Correll (Aug 24, 2022)

alexa said:


> You started on Fonda.  I started watching the atrocities on my tv in my sitting room.  Fonda did not come in for me till decades later and meant nothing.
> 
> I live in the UK.  We were on marches all the time against your war in Vietnam.  We were burning your flag regularly on our streets.  There was one time the police were concerned what we were going to break into to your Embassy.  The Vietnam war as far as I am aware, as I said before, was the one war where journalists had the ability to bring us the truth which we all saw in our sitting rooms thanks to the invention of televisions.  What we saw disgusted us and bit by bit the people of the United States as well despite their people fighting in it.  Wars could not be fought if the people knew what you were doing.  Since then Governments particularly the US have made sure journalists do not have the ability to bring the truth to the people.




How do you feel about the actions of the Soviet Union and North Vietnam in the war?


----------



## Dogmaphobe (Aug 24, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> Vietnam protestors like Jane Fonda and John Kerry were Patriots
> 
> They recognized that we had no business being in Vietnam and that we were being lied to
> 
> The Traitors were those who wrapped themselves in the flag and promised quick victory while they proceeded to get 60,000 Americans killed



You are a moron. Jane was supportive of the Viet Kong.  Nuff said.

I had friends in the S.D.S back then, and there was a schism developing at the time between the responsible members who simply wanted our boys to come home and stop dying there, and those less mature who were just acting out and who actually supported the Viet Kong. Jane Fonda was indicative of the latter.

I'm reminded much of the non-liberal useful idiot leftists of today who side with Islamists just because they hate America.


----------



## Dogmaphobe (Aug 24, 2022)

gipper said:


> Yeah sure. He just expanded our presence their as soon as he took office.  Lol.


All that matters to him is the D next to Johnson's name.


----------



## rightwinger (Aug 24, 2022)

Dogmaphobe said:


> You are a moron. Jane was supportive of the Viet Kong.  Nuff said.
> 
> I had friends in the S.D.S back then, and there was a schism developing at the time between the responsible members who simply wanted our boys to come home and stop dying there, and those less mature who were just acting out and who actually supported the Viet Kong. Jane Fonda was indicative of the latter.
> 
> I'm reminded much of the non-liberal useful idiot leftists of today who side with Islamists just because they hate America.



Fonda fought for ending a senseless war
History has proved her correct


----------



## gipper (Aug 24, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> Fonda fought for ending a senseless war
> History has proved her correct


Its one thing to be against the war, it’s another thing when your actions are treasonous.


----------



## Dogmaphobe (Aug 24, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> Fonda fought for ending a senseless war
> History has proved her correct


My explanation of the difference between opposing a senseless war and siding with the Viet Kong went right over your silly little head, didn't it?


----------



## rightwinger (Aug 24, 2022)

gipper said:


> Its one thing to be against the war, it’s another thing when her actions were treasonous.



Evidently not. 
Didn’t see Nixon going after her

What WAS treasonous was lying to the American public about the reasons for war and prospects of winning it. 
What was treasonous was sending boys to their death on a false pretext 

Jane Fonda never killed anyone


----------



## gipper (Aug 24, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> Evidently not.
> Didn’t see Nixon going after her
> 
> What WAS treasonous was lying to the American public about the reasons for war and prospects of winning it.
> ...


I‘m not disputing LBJ’s and Tricky Dick’s horrendous actions. 

Hanoi Jane met captured American pilots who slipped her information, thinking she was really an American patriot. She promptly gave that info to the NV. Those pilots were then beaten. Who knows some may have died from those beatings.


----------



## Sunni Man (Aug 24, 2022)

There's no telling how many deaths Hanoi Jane is responsible for causing by her traitorous behavior.
She emboldened the N Vietnamese and demoralized the American soldiers.


----------



## francoHFW (Aug 24, 2022)

White 6 said:


> How bout this found with DuckDuckGo:
> Even in 1979, when the world was aware of the millions of Vietnamese and Cambodians murdered and starved to death by their communist victors, when even Joan Baez protested the Khmer Rouge slaughter, Jane Fonda refused to join in. As she then told the National Press Club, she was unable to confirm the accuracy of the charges.
> 
> This is more upsetting:
> ...


I highly doubt it. Really stupid war especially by the time Nixon was running it. My college caught the "sds" guy who got two freshmen to blow up the ROTC office and he's supposedly did it at kent state too. While he worked for the FBI and the Ontario County Sheriff's Department. J Edgar and Nixon didn't think it was worth investigating..


----------



## francoHFW (Aug 24, 2022)

Sunni Man said:


> There's no telling how many deaths Hanoi Jane is responsible for causing by her traitorous behavior.
> She emboldened the N Vietnamese and demoralized the American soldiers.


Most of what you believe about her is garbage propaganda period- at any rate good if she ended the war sooner, the worst war ever until Iraq. And all the other republican wars lol


----------



## Sunni Man (Aug 24, 2022)

francoHFW said:


> *Most of what you believe about her is garbage propaganda period- at any rate good if she ended the war sooner, the worst war ever until Iraq. And all the other republican wars lol*


WW1 .... Democrat war
WW2 .... Democrat war
Korean war ...  Democrat war
Vietnam war ...  Democrat war


----------



## francoHFW (Aug 24, 2022)

Sunni Man said:


> WW1 .... Democrat war
> WW2 .... Democrat war
> Korean war ...  Democrat war
> Vietnam war ...  Democrat war


democratic wars are necessary, republican ones are stupid like Iraq Afghanistan Spanish American and all the covert operations in Latin America, I would argue that the Dulles brothers started the Vietnamese war and the worst part was under Nixon cynical bombing horrible.... we should have allowed the 1956 election which Ho Chi minh would have won with about 90% of the vote.... Even earlier we should not have financed the French...


----------



## Sunni Man (Aug 24, 2022)

francoHFW said:


> *democratic wars are necessary, republican ones are stupid like Iraq *


^^^^ Most delusional, comical quote ever.  ...


----------



## francoHFW (Aug 25, 2022)

Sunni Man said:


> ^^^^ Most delusional, comical quote ever.  ...


Quote the whole thing then,  good as a liar.


----------



## Mushroom (Aug 25, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> Like I posted earlier, we turned a Civil War into a Cold War



That was not a Civil War.  That is when there are two factions in a single country that are fighting each other.

That was the nation of North Vietnam invading the nation of South Vietnam.  It was no more a "Civil War" than the Korean War was.  Or Germany taking over Poland and claiming it belonged to them as it was historically part of Germany.

Or that the 1990 Invasion of Kuwait was a "Civil War" because until WWI, that nation was part of Iraq and known as the Qadha district of the Basra Province.



> The ancient civilizations of Sumer and Babylon originated in Mesopotamia (the Greek word for "between rivers"), near the Tigris and Euphrates rivers in what is now Iraq. Modern day Kuwait began in the eighteenth century as a small village on the Persian Gulf. "Kuwait," the word for "small human settlement," was so named by Iraqi rulers of that era. Throughout the nineteenth century and up to World War I, Kuwait was a "Qadha," a district within the Basra Province, and it was an integral part of Iraq under the administrative rule of the Ottoman Empire.







__





						Iraq & Kuwait
					





					www.csun.edu


----------



## CrusaderFrank (Aug 25, 2022)

longly said:


> *In science, one verifies one's observations by submitting them to peer review. I remember something very clearly from the Vietnam War, but liberal friends and acquaintances tell me it never happened. I  have done internet research, but I can't find anything in regards to this issue. Now I know she made those comments before the internet, but they should be in the history of the time.  So here is the question for all  the boomer generation that may be on this site: I remember Jane Fonda praising the Khmer Rouge for their victory in  Cambodia; do you remember it?   Do you have a source that would back up my memories?*


Google scrubbed those results?


----------



## gipper (Aug 25, 2022)

gipper said:


> I‘m not disputing LBJ’s and Tricky Dick’s horrendous actions.
> 
> Hanoi Jane met captured American pilots who slipped her information, thinking she was really an American patriot. She promptly gave that info to the NV. Those pilots were then beaten. Who knows some may have died from those beatings.


Apparently the story she betrayed American POWs may be false. I did a little research trying to determine if it is true, and found lots of conflicting stories. So, I will admit it may not be accurate.


----------



## rightwinger (Aug 25, 2022)

Mushroom said:


> That was not a Civil War.  That is when there are two factions in a single country that are fighting each other.
> 
> That was the nation of North Vietnam invading the nation of South Vietnam.  It was no more a "Civil War" than the Korean War was.  Or Germany taking over Poland and claiming it belonged to them as it was historically part of Germany.
> 
> ...


It was Vietnam fighting among themselves

Civil War

We turned it into a war on Communism


----------



## gipper (Aug 25, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> It was Vietnam fighting among themselves
> 
> Civil War
> 
> We turned it into a war on Communism


That JFK planned to avert but they killed him, then LBJ gave them yet another imperialist war. Many followed in the years after, proving the MIC controls the presidency.


----------



## rightwinger (Aug 25, 2022)

gipper said:


> That JFK planned to avert but they killed him, then LBJ gave them yet another imperialist war. Many followed in the years after, proving the MIC controls the presidency.



JFK was no saint 

Once it became obvious that the N Vietnamese would capture the South, JFK would have intervened…….just like LBJ did


----------



## gipper (Aug 25, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> JFK was no saint
> 
> Once it became obvious that the N Vietnamese would capture the South, JFK would have intervened…….just like LBJ did


Must you always change the subject Strawman?  No one but you claimed him a saint. 

And no, he wouldn’t have intervened. You stupidly think he didn’t know the North would easily overtake the South, once we left.


----------



## rightwinger (Aug 25, 2022)

gipper said:


> Must you always change the subject Strawman?  No one but you claimed him a saint.
> 
> And no, he wouldn’t have intervened. You stupidly think he didn’t know the North would easily overtake the South, once we left.



JFK would have had no choice

The Vietnam in 1965 was much different than the Vietnam in 1963. The killing of Diem led to a power void that the North exploited

JFK would not want to appear soft on Communism
Just like LBJ


----------



## RetiredGySgt (Aug 25, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> It was Vietnam fighting among themselves
> 
> Civil War
> 
> We turned it into a war on Communism


wrong who do you think supplied the north? from 1949 on?


----------



## rightwinger (Aug 25, 2022)

RetiredGySgt said:


> wrong who do you think supplied the north? from 1949 on?



Like I said…..Cold War

We were supplying the South and supporting French Colonialism

During WWII, the French did nothing as the Japanese invaded. It was Vietnamese freedom fighters who fought the Japanese

After the war, instead of supporting those who fought for Freedom, we supported DeGaule and the French


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## RetiredGySgt (Aug 25, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> Like I said…..Cold War


1949 numbnuts long before we were involved. Long before any vote was planned.


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## rightwinger (Aug 25, 2022)

RetiredGySgt said:


> 1949 numbnuts long before we were involved. Long before any vote was planned.


Read my post about post WWII
We supported French Colonialism


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## RetiredGySgt (Aug 25, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> Read my post about post WWII
> We supported French Colonialism


we supported france so what? Again RETARD Soviet UNION was supplying arms and muntions to the North from 1949 on we did not get directly involved until 1960


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## rightwinger (Aug 25, 2022)

RetiredGySgt said:


> we supported france so what? Again RETARD Soviet UNION was supplying arms and muntions to the North from 1949 on we did not get directly involved until 1960



So what?
So if we are supporting their French Colonial Lords and the Soviets are supporting the revolution against the French occupiers……why are you surprised they went Communist?


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## RetiredGySgt (Aug 25, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> So what?
> So if we are supporting their French Colonial Lords and the Soviets are supporting the revolution against the French occupiers……why are you surprised they went Communist?


you claimed we shouldnt have gotten involved when the Soviets were directly involved and just for the record in 1972 the North was beaten. the democrats sold out the South.


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## rightwinger (Aug 25, 2022)

RetiredGySgt said:


> you claimed we shouldnt have gotten involved when the Soviets were directly involved and just for the record in 1972 the North was beaten. the democrats sold out the South.



Ho Chi Minh begged the US to support independence after WWII
We chose to support the French

The Soviets offered him support in resisting the French

We blew it


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## rightwinger (Aug 25, 2022)

RetiredGySgt said:


> just for the record in 1972 the North was beaten. the democrats sold out the South.



More “Victory is just around the corner”
Just like we heard in 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971

The North Vietnamese were never going to quit


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## Mac-7 (Aug 25, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> Ho Chi Minh begged the US to support independence after WWII
> We chose to support the French
> 
> The Soviets offered him support in resisting the French
> ...


You were not there so to an extent you’re giving us the Jane Fonda anti-war left version of events

Ho was a communist long before WWII

Just as bin Laden pretended to be our buddy during the anti Soviet Afghan war and then turned on us later we cant possibly know what was going on in Ho’s commie brain in 1945

Do you really think a lifelong communist since 1921 was going to become pro American after he overran all of vietnam?


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## rightwinger (Aug 25, 2022)

Mac-7 said:


> You were not there so to an extent you’re giving us the Jane Fonda anti-war left version of events
> 
> Ho was a communist long before WWII
> 
> ...



Ho would support anyone who was on his side
Just look at it from his side
The French were the Capitalists exploiting his country
The Communists offered independence


----------



## Mac-7 (Aug 25, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> *Ho would support anyone who was on his side*
> Just look at it from his side
> The French were the Capitalists exploiting his country
> The Communists offered independence


Thats what they said about bin Laden till he turned on us


----------



## rightwinger (Aug 25, 2022)

Mac-7 said:


> Thats what they said about bin Laden till he turned on us


Reagan supported him


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## Mac-7 (Aug 25, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> Reagan supported him


Nonsense

the US congress pushed for aid to the afghans after Reagan left office


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## Dayton3 (Aug 25, 2022)

Mr Clean said:


> Fifty thousand young guys (many enslaved via the draft) died needlessly  in that fucking useless fiasco. It made me ashamed to be an American.
> 
> I escaped it by joining the Navy.
> 
> And Jane Fonda remains a hero of mine for doing what she did.


Fighting communists is never "useless".


----------



## Dayton3 (Aug 25, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> Reagan supported him



Not true.   The Reagan Admin. supported the insurgents that later became the northern alliance in Afghanistan.


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## Mushroom (Aug 25, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> It was Vietnam fighting among themselves



No, they were two different countries.  One was created in 1945, the other in 1955.  The war between the two did not start until 1959.

They were not "fighting among themselves", the vast majority of those fighting against South Vietnam were from North Vietnam.

Once again, your calling this a "Civil War" is like trying to claim the Korean War was a Civil War because it was Koreans fighting among themselves.

Either you are ignorant, or purposefully playing games for your own purposes.

That is like saying that a war between El Salvador and Nicaragua is a "Civil War" because they were both once part of Spain.


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## Mushroom (Aug 25, 2022)

Mac-7 said:


> Just as bin Laden pretended to be our buddy during the anti Soviet Afghan war



Actually, he never was and hated Westerners even before then.

Just because he was part of the Mujahedeen, does not mean we supported all of them.  He was one of what was called the "Arab Mujahedeen", and neither the US or ISI gave them aid.  The US aid went to people like Ahmad Shah Massoud and groups like the Shura-e Nazar.  You might have heard of Massoud, Al-Qaeda assassinated him on 9 September 2001 at the request of the Taliban.

I know I have explained this before, but I find it funny how ignorant people are of what was going on, and try to lump all of the Mujahedeen groups together as if they were one.


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## Mushroom (Aug 25, 2022)

Dayton3 said:


> Not true. The Reagan Admin. supported the insurgents that later became the northern alliance in Afghanistan.



You just can't explain things like that to some people.  I am not sure if they are simply racists and see them all as "ragheads", or are willfully ignorant out of choice for some reason.

Just like another moron that claims that Vietnam was a "Civil War", and that the US at the same time was trying to support France in taking back the country, and also supporting South Vietnam.

I honestly think they do not care what the truth is.  They are so busy pushing their agenda that the facts do not matter.


----------



## Mac-7 (Aug 25, 2022)

Mushroom said:


> Actually, he never was and hated Westerners even before then.
> 
> Just because he was part of the Mujahedeen, does not mean we supported all of them.  He was one of what was called the "Arab Mujahedeen", and neither the US or ISI gave them aid.  The US aid went to people like Ahmad Shah Massoud and groups like the Shura-e Nazar.  You might have heard of Massoud, Al-Qaeda assassinated him on 9 September 2001 at the request of the Taliban.
> 
> I know I have explained this before, but I find it funny how ignorant people are of what was going on, and try to lump all of the Mujahedeen groups together as if they were one.


You admit that bin laden was part of the Mujahedeen

So US aid them certainly would have ended up in his hands too


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## rightwinger (Aug 25, 2022)

Mushroom said:


> No, they were two different countries.  One was created in 1945, the other in 1955.  The war between the two did not start until 1959.
> 
> They were not "fighting among themselves", the vast majority of those fighting against South Vietnam were from North Vietnam.
> 
> ...


Why was there a Civil War?

Because there was supposed to be a free election five years after the French left

When it became obvious that Ho Chi Minh would win, the US would not allow an election


----------



## Dayton3 (Aug 25, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> Why was there a Civil War?
> 
> Because there was supposed to be a free election five years after the French left
> 
> When it became obvious that Ho Chi Minh would win, the US would not allow an election



So?   The U.S. is in no way obligated to allow Communism to spread whether it has popular support or not.

No nation has a right to choose that option.


----------



## rightwinger (Aug 25, 2022)

Dayton3 said:


> So?   The U.S. is in no way obligated to allow Communism to spread whether it has popular support or not.
> 
> No nation has a right to choose that option.



So instead of allowing a Communist regime we thought killing 2 million people was a better idea.

Guess what?
Vietnam has been controlled by a Communist Government for 45 years and is doing better than they did under French Colonialism


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## Dayton3 (Aug 25, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> So instead of allowing a Communist regime we thought killing 2 million people was a better idea.



Yes.     And we didn't set out to kill two million people.    But they resisted. 

If they had simply complied probably no more than 500,000 tops would've been killed by the U.S.


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## Dayton3 (Aug 25, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> So instead of allowing a Communist regime we thought killing 2 million people was a better idea.
> 
> Guess what?
> Vietnam has been controlled by a Communist Government for 45 years and is doing better than they did under French Colonialism



French Colonialism was not the alternative to communist control .


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## rightwinger (Aug 25, 2022)

Dayton3 said:


> French Colonialism was not the alternative to communist control .



The Southern Government was established by the French

Why was the South Vietnamese Government Catholic while the country was Buddhist?

The French


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## Dayton3 (Aug 25, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> The Southern Government was established by the French
> 
> Why was the South Vietnamese Government Catholic while the country was Buddhist?
> 
> The French



South Vietnam was not entirely Buddhist.


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## sparky (Aug 25, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> Why was there a Civil War?
> 
> Because there was supposed to be a free election five years after the French left


Isn't that descriptive of the ukranie?

~S~


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## Mushroom (Aug 26, 2022)

Mac-7 said:


> You admit that bin laden was part of the Mujahedeen
> 
> So US aid them certainly would have ended up in his hands too



Do you even know what "Mujahedeen" is?  It is Arabic for "Fighters of Justice", or essentially "Soldier".  It is one who fights a "Holy War", in the case of Afghanistan it was a generic name for *any* who fought against the Soviets.  It was not an organization, it was not a group, any time you hear that term think "Soldier", not "Army".

Oh, and there are Mujahedeen also fighting in Cyprus, Burma, the Philippines, former Yugoslavia, Nigeria, Somalia, China, and India.  Do you mean to imply that the US has been funding all of them also?

No, the US did not aid him.  The US sent them primarily once again to Ahmad Shah Massoud.  A moderate Afghan, who was loyal to the King and came from a military background.  And Bin Laden had hated him for decades before he had him assassinated.  Because Massoud wanted to create a secular and free Afghanistan, while Bin Laden, Hekmatyar, and others wanted to create a strict Islamic State based upon Sharia Law.

So literally, what you are saying is that if the US was doing the same thing in Post-WWI Germany, they would be supporting both the Communists and the Fascists, as both were trying to overthrow the Weimar Republic.

Wow, the lack of understanding of anything is simply amazing.  As I said, I can only assume you are a racist by how you oversimply everything to such a degree.  And I guess you see all Muslims as simply "Arab Ragheads".


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## Mushroom (Aug 26, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> Because there was supposed to be a free election five years after the French left



Yes.  Which South Vietnam said they would honor, once North Vietnam stopped attacking them.

Yes, the Geneva Conference stated that there would be elections within five years.  However, in less than a year North Vietnam was trying to take by force what they could not get at the negotiation table.

There would have been elections, if the North Vietnamese government had honored their agreements.  Something they have a history of ignoring whenever they feel like it.  Kind of like the Treaty of Paris, where in 1973 they promised to never again attack South Vietnam.

And they then broke less than two years later.


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## Mushroom (Aug 26, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> The Southern Government was established by the French



Actually, it was set up at a multinational Peace Conference in Geneva.  And in that Conference, it was decided that the Soviet Union would be the sponsor and supporter of North Vietnam, and that the United States would be the sponsor and supporter of South Vietnam.  And no, it was not established by the French.

It literally was the continuation of the rule of Bao Dai, 13th Emperor of Vietnam.  Who had abdicated his throne in 1945 but remained as Head of State, and that is why the capitol was established in his former ruling city of Saigon.

Wow, you really do not know anything about history, do you?  I suggest you try actually doing some research, or I will smite you again with facts.


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## Mushroom (Aug 26, 2022)

Dayton3 said:


> But they resisted.



It was not that they "resisted", it is that they kept attacking another nation.

That is kind of like saying that the UN forces killed millions in the Korean War, and the Allies killed millions in WWII.  Well, if the governments they were fighting stopped attacking and invading their neighbors, that would not have happened.


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## Mac-7 (Aug 26, 2022)

Mushroom said:


> Do you even know what "Mujahedeen" is?  It is Arabic for "Fighters of Justice", or essentially "Soldier".  It is one who fights a "Holy War", in the case of Afghanistan it was a generic name for *any* who fought against the Soviets.  It was not an organization, it was not a group, any time you hear that term think "Soldier", not "Army".
> 
> Oh, and there are Mujahedeen also fighting in Cyprus, Burma, the Philippines, former Yugoslavia, Nigeria, Somalia, China, and India.  Do you mean to imply that the US has been funding all of them also?
> 
> ...


You peddle a lot of bullshit

The US funded anti soviet groups in afghanistan

Bin Laden was part of the anti soviet effort


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## Soupnazi630 (Aug 26, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> Jane Fonda was right about her objection to the war
> Millions died unnecessarily
> 
> Blame Bob Hope


She did not object to it.

She sided with the enemy which is not the same


----------



## Mushroom (Aug 26, 2022)

Mac-7 said:


> You peddle a lot of bullshit
> 
> The US funded anti soviet groups in afghanistan



I never said they did.  Logical fallacy here if you think that is the same as saying they funded *all* Anti-Soviet groups.

Basically, you are saying that all dogs are mammals, therefore all mammals are dogs.

The US did not fund all groups, only those that wanted to restore the old government.

Hell, I can tell you for a fact of another Mujahedeen Organization that the US never sent aid to.  And that was the Progressive Youth Organization (PYO), a group that formed in 1965 and was declared an enemy even before the Soviets took over by the PDPA in 1978.  They and others formed uneasy bonds with the various Mujahedeen groups, but the US never sent them aid either.

Why?  Because the PYO was a radical Maoist Communist organization.  Then in 2001 after the US invasion, they banded with other surviving Communist groups in the country to form the "Unitary Committee of Marxist-Leninist-Maoist Movement of Afghanistan", which, then dissolved after years of infighting in 2004.

And trust me, the PYO was indeed a Mujahedeen Organization in Afghanistan fighting the Soviets, and the US also never gave them aid.  Their aid was funneled to them from China, while the "Arab Afghans" like Bin Laden got his aid from the Persian Gulf region.

Sheesh, it would be nice if you actually bothered to do some research, and not just ignorantly spout off such nonsense.

Once again, you show your lack of knowledge about almost anything is overwhelming.  But what I just said is not "bullshit", it is a fact.  And that Marxists and Maoists have been fighting each other for decades.  But here, the following is a fascinating paper about the Maoists in Afghanistan.



			https://www.afghanistan-analysts.org/wp-content/uploads/downloads/2012/09/NIbr-Maoists-final.pdf


----------



## Mac-7 (Aug 27, 2022)

Mushroom said:


> I never said they did.  Logical fallacy here if you think that is the same as saying they funded *all* Anti-Soviet groups.
> 
> Basically, you are saying that all dogs are mammals, therefore all mammals are dogs.
> 
> ...


We have gotten far out in the weeds here

No one can say that none of the billions of dollars given away end up supplying bin Laden

In fact that was the left rallying cry during the Bush years that the US armed bin laden

No libs disputed that then but now apparently the storyline has evolved


----------



## AZrailwhale (Aug 27, 2022)

alexa said:


> You started on Fonda.  I started watching the atrocities on my tv in my sitting room.  Fonda did not come in for me till decades later and meant nothing.
> 
> I live in the UK.  We were on marches all the time against your war in Vietnam.  We were burning your flag regularly on our streets.  There was one time the police were concerned what we were going to break into to your Embassy.  The Vietnam war as far as I am aware, as I said before, was the one war where journalists had the ability to bring us the truth which we all saw in our sitting rooms thanks to the invention of televisions.  What we saw disgusted us and bit by bit the people of the United States as well despite their people fighting in it.  Wars could not be fought if the people knew what you were doing.  Since then Governments particularly the US have made sure journalists do not have the ability to bring the truth to the people.


The “truth” you saw was carefully crafted by the journalists to show all the bad things that occurred on the ARVN/US side, none of the good and certainly none of the atrocities committed by the Viet Cong and PAVN.  Both communist armies committed atrocities on a regular basis and they were a deliberate part of their battle plan.  Look at their conduct in Hue during the Tet offensive for a clear example.  The first thing they did while the battle was raging was to round up and kill Vietnamese civilians, often after torturing and raping them.


----------



## AZrailwhale (Aug 27, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> Like I said…..Cold War
> 
> We were supplying the South and supporting French Colonialism
> 
> ...


What were the French supposed to do?  Most of France was occupied and Vichy had to ask the Germans for permission to piss.  The small Free French forces were committed to supporting the British and had no ability to invade India-China on their own.  As for the US, Indo-China was far behind Japanese lines and Burma and the rest of South-East Asia was a British responsibility with only small American forces fighting under British command.


----------



## AZrailwhale (Aug 27, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> Why was there a Civil War?
> 
> Because there was supposed to be a free election five years after the French left
> 
> When it became obvious that Ho Chi Minh would win, the US would not allow an election


Ho would win because he had imprison  or killed everyone who opposed him in the areas he controlled.


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## rightwinger (Aug 27, 2022)

AZrailwhale said:


> Ho would win because he had imprison  or killed everyone who opposed him in the areas he controlled.


Actually he was very popular in Vietnam

The French Colonialists and their puppet regime were not


----------



## Mushroom (Aug 27, 2022)

Mac-7 said:


> No one can say that none of the billions of dollars given away end up supplying bin Laden



Fine, prove it then.

Oh wait, you do not use proof.  Just speculation.

Well, I think you may be taking money from aliens from Tau Ceti.  Oh, I don't need proof, but surely you are because they only give money to humans.  And you are human, therefore they gave you money.


----------



## Mushroom (Aug 27, 2022)

AZrailwhale said:


> The “truth” you saw was carefully crafted by the journalists to show all the bad things that occurred on the ARVN/US side, none of the good and certainly none of the atrocities committed by the Viet Cong and PAVN.



You mean like the execution of Nguyen Van Lem?  One of the most remembered photos of the entire war, where General Nguyen Ngoc simply puts a gun to his head and kills him.







However, Lem was a member of the Viet Cong assassination team from North Vietnam.  And his mission was specifically one of terror.  Shortly before his execution, he had killed one of the officers that served under him, Lieutenant Colonel Nguyen Tuan.  And not only that, but his wife, their six children, and his mother.  We have heard outrage for over half a century now of how "barbaric" the street execution was.  But almost nowhere is it ever mentioned that that monster had butchered an entire family of 9 people in an act of terror.

And it was not like he was innocent, when Lem was captured while trying to bury the bodies, and admitted when he was captured that he executed them.  The grave actually had 34 bodies in it, all executed by the VC.  But Lem was the only one that was captured alive, and he proudly confessed to the nine executions he did, and ordering the 25 others.  That is when he was taken to General Nguyen Ngoc.

It's funny, it is not like that was some kind of secret.  Because both AP photographer Eddie Adams and NBC cameraman Vo Suu were taken to the mass grave shortly after that.  I have seen interviews where they admitted to seeing the mass graves, but where is the video or photos of that?  But somehow, the bodies of 34 men, women, and children executed by the VC were not as important as the execution of a single VC.






						Mass graves discovered in Hue
					

Allied troops who had recaptured the imperial capital of Hue from the North Vietnamese during the Tet Offensive discover the first mass graves in Hue. It was




					www.history.com


----------



## Mac-7 (Aug 27, 2022)

Mushroom said:


> Fine, prove it then.
> 
> Oh wait, you do not use proof.  Just speculation.
> 
> Well, I think you may be taking money from aliens from Tau Ceti.  Oh, I don't need proof, but surely you are because they only give money to humans.  And you are human, therefore they gave you money.


Thats all youre doing is speculating - hoping - wishing


----------



## Mushroom (Aug 27, 2022)

Mac-7 said:


> Thats all youre doing is speculating - hoping - wishing



No, it is known as "sarcasm".

You are the one speculating.  Or to be more accurate "talking out of your arse".

You are the one making wild charges, without one shred of evidence.  Meanwhile I bring up many cases, some from actual scholarly and respected sources which you simply ignore and make logical fallacies.


----------



## Man of Ethics (Sep 2, 2022)

rightwinger said:


> Vietnam was a Civil War that we turned into a Cold War
> 
> Fonda and other protestors were right about the war
> War hawks lied to us and killed 60,000


Agree 100%.

PS.  Over a million civilians were killed in Southeast Asia by American firepower.


----------

