# What Kind of State in Israel?



## georgephillip (Nov 25, 2012)

Two core questions that need to be answered: what kind of state is Israel and "who are the Palestinians that state is in conflict with?"

The CounterPunch POV:

"*Israel was established to be a Jewish state*. Its institutions have always been shaped and constrained so as to ensure the continued existence of a *Jewish majority* and character.  

"Passing a test of Jewishness entitles someone to Israeli citizenship regardless of where in the world she lives.  

"Furthermore, her citizenship comes with a bundle of political, social and economic rights which are preferential to that of citizens who do not qualify as Jewish.  

"This inbuilt discriminatory premise highlights *the apartheid nature of the state*.  But apartheid is not an accidental feature of Israel. Its very creation involved immense injustice and suffering."

Counterpunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names


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## Hossfly (Nov 25, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> Two core questions that need to be answered: what kind of state is Israel and "who are the Palestinians that state is in conflict with?"
> 
> The CounterPunch POV:
> 
> ...


Counterpunch = Yellow Journalism

Yellow journalism | Define Yellow journalism at Dictionary.com


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## toastman (Nov 25, 2012)

looks like georgieboy just got owned again


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## georgephillip (Nov 25, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> georgephillip said:
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> > Two core questions that need to be answered: what kind of state is Israel and "who are the Palestinians that state is in conflict with?"
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*Your link:*

*"yellow journalism*

"'sensational chauvinism in the media,' 1898, Amer.Eng. from newspaper *agitation for war with Spain*; originally 'publicity stunt use of colored ink' (1895) in ref. to the popular 'Yellow Kid'character (his clothes were yellow) in Richard Outcault's comic strip 'Shantytown' in the 'New York World.'"

*Please point out the "sensational chauvinism" in mine.*


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## Hossfly (Nov 25, 2012)

georgephillip said:


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The 1st definition, skidmark. You don't get to pick and choose.



World English Dictionary



yellow journalism 







 n 




the type of journalism that relies on sensationalism and lurid exaggeration to attract readers 







[C19: perhaps shortened from the phrase Yellow Kid journalism,  referring to the Yellow Kid,  a cartoon (1895) in the New York World,  a newspaper having a reputation for sensationalism] 



Collins English Dictionary - Complete & Unabridged 10th Edition
2009 © William Collins Sons & Co. Ltd. 1979, 1986 © HarperCollins
Publishers 1998, 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2009 
Cite This Source


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## Jos (Nov 25, 2012)

> Israel desires to be hated by Palestinians.  By provoking violence Israel has not merely managed to divert the limelight from its apartheid nature.  It has also managed to convince that, as Joseph Massad of Columbia University once captured, it has the right  to occupy, to dispossess and to discriminate, namely the claim that the apartheid premise which founds it should be put up with and rationalized as reasonable.  Would anybody allow such a right-claim to hold sway in apartheid South Africa?  How come that the anti-apartheid and egalitarian calls for the non-recognition of Israel right to exist are being marginalized as extreme and unrealizable?  What kind of existential fetters cause the world to exhibit such blindness and a drop of compassion?  Is there no unfolding tragedy that anticipates violence against Jews precisely because past violence against them in Europe is being allowed to serve as a rationalizing device of an apartheid state?
> 
> Israel has already created a de facto single state between the river and the sea, albeit one which suffers from several apartheid systems, one within Israel and another in the occupied territories. We must not let Israeli aggression prevent us from treating as moderate and realistic proposals to turn this single state into one where all would have equal rights.
> 
> *Oren Ben-Dor* grew up in the State of Israel.


Why Israel Desires to be Hated by Palestinians » Counterpunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names


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## georgephillip (Nov 25, 2012)

Hossfly said:


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Point out any "sensationalism" or "lurid exaggeration" in my link.
Do you agree with this:

"Israel was established to be a Jewish state. Its institutions have always been shaped and constrained so as to ensure the continued existence of a Jewish majority and character."

Counterpunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names


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## toomuchtime_ (Nov 25, 2012)

What kind of state is Israel?  I have it on good authority that Israel is a Light unto the Nations.



> "Yea, He saith, 'It is too light a thing for you to be My servant, to establish the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the scions of Israel, and I shall submit you as a light unto the nations, to be My salvation until the end of the earth' (Isaiah, 49:6)
> 
> "I the LORD have called unto you in righteousness, and have taken hold of your hand, and submitted you as the people's covenant, as a light unto the nations" (Isaiah, 42:6)
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Light Unto the Nations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Hossfly (Nov 25, 2012)

georgephillip said:


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Simply this: Counterpunch is one-sided yellow journalism. An anti-Semitic web site. Show us just one article in it's history that favors Israel.


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## Jos (Nov 25, 2012)

No its not


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## Jos (Nov 25, 2012)

Are you suggesting, Hoss, if an American site doesn't  post "one article in it's history that favors Israel" It's "An anti-Semitic web site"
Shame on you, go stand in the corner


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## Hossfly (Nov 25, 2012)

Jos said:


> Are you suggesting, Hoss, if an American site doesn't  post "one article in it's history that favors Israel" It's "An anti-Semitic web site"
> Shame on you, go stand in the corner


That's what I seem to be implying.


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## Jos (Nov 25, 2012)

> "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."


 Samuel Adams


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## Hossfly (Nov 25, 2012)

artfulcodger said:


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My dog likes me.


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## Jos (Nov 25, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> My dog likes me.



Your dog also likes to lick his own balls...just saying


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## georgephillip (Nov 25, 2012)

Jos said:


> > Israel desires to be hated by Palestinians.  By provoking violence Israel has not merely managed to divert the limelight from its apartheid nature.  It has also managed to convince that, as Joseph Massad of Columbia University once captured, it has the right  to occupy, to dispossess and to discriminate, namely the claim that the apartheid premise which founds it should be put up with and rationalized as reasonable.  Would anybody allow such a right-claim to hold sway in apartheid South Africa?  How come that the anti-apartheid and egalitarian calls for the non-recognition of Israel right to exist are being marginalized as extreme and unrealizable?  What kind of existential fetters cause the world to exhibit such blindness and a drop of compassion?  Is there no unfolding tragedy that anticipates violence against Jews precisely because past violence against them in Europe is being allowed to serve as a rationalizing device of an apartheid state?
> >
> > Israel has already created a de facto single state between the river and the sea, albeit one which suffers from several apartheid systems, one within Israel and another in the occupied territories. We must not let Israeli aggression prevent us from treating as moderate and realistic proposals to turn this single state into one where all would have equal rights.
> >
> ...


"Unpopulated land for a landless people was one of the first lies Zionists told the world.
Lately CNN determined Israel had been raised "from the sand" by Jewish migration.
In fact, Palestine was already substantially urbanized by the time of Lord Balfour's declaration with only 11% of its population identifying as Jews. 

By 1948 Jews were 32% yet managed to inflict a Jewish state upon a majority of Palestinians. Today there are a million more Arabs than Jews living between the Mediterranean Sea and Jordan River: yet it's Jewish civil and military laws that govern all of Palestine.

That single de-facto state between the river and the sea can't exist without apartheid, and only US support makes apartheid possible.


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## Hossfly (Nov 25, 2012)

artfulcodger said:


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Beastiality aint no word, Mr. Grammar.


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## Hossfly (Nov 25, 2012)

artfulcodger said:


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Now you spell it right. With help from the dictionary, Mr. Grammar.


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## georgephillip (Nov 25, 2012)

toomuchtime_ said:


> What kind of state is Israel?  I have it on good authority that Israel is a Light unto the Nations.
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*Are you and Bibi consulting the same authority?*

"You are dealing with our people's fate because it is clear today that the fate of the Jewish people is the fate of the Jewish state. *There is no demographic or practical existence for the Jewish people without a Jewish state*..."

"Our ability as a collective to determine our own destiny is what grants us the tools to shape our future - no longer as a ruled people, defeated and persecuted, but as a proud people with a magnificent country and one which always aspires to serve as 'Light Unto the Nations'".

Light Unto the Nations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## georgephillip (Nov 25, 2012)

artfulcodger said:


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In fact...Hossie really can be that stupid and more.
Do not underestimate him!


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## Hossfly (Nov 25, 2012)

artfulcodger said:


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Not at all, Mr. Grammar. You're the one who puts up words that are non-existant. I be playin' according to the rules.


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## georgephillip (Nov 25, 2012)

Hossfly said:


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*Here's one that qualifies in some places:*

"Israel today, the realization of the Zionist theory, bears little relationship to the original concept, which was much more attune to the fact that Palestine was peopled by Arabs and they were also human beings who deserved to have rights."

The Enigma of Israel » Counterpunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

The Jewish homeland in Palestine was an idea put forward by some devout anti-Semites in this country and England. I don't think they did that to enhance democracy in the middle east. I think it had more to do with arms sales and oil sales.


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## georgephillip (Nov 25, 2012)

Jos said:


> > "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."
> 
> 
> Samuel Adams


Conservatives don't favor that level of intellectual honesty, Jos.
You are on THIN ice.


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## RoccoR (Nov 25, 2012)

georgephillip,  _et al,_

Interesting.  I wonder what the agenda is here?



georgephillip said:


> Two core questions that need to be answered:
> 
> "what kind of state is Israel?"
> "who are the Palestinians that state is in conflict with?"


*(ANSWERS)*


The State of Israel is a democracy, ruled by the people in a parliamentary fashion; adhering to the Rule of Law adopted by most western nations.


Israel is not in conflict with the "Palestinians."  It is the Palestinians, and the adjacent Arab nations fighting vicariously through the "Palestinians," that are in conflict with Israel.
The "Palestinians" of today are the remainder and the descendants of former displaced residents of Israeli national territory; AND, a conglomerate of associated residents and migrants of the "Occupied Territories."  They include the proximity residents at the time of occupation, and the surge of anti-Jewish Arabs and Arab adventures that mustered in the region to fight against occupation and the Israel_ (referred to as the "Jewish Nation")_.​
Previous commentary mentions the term: "Apartheid;" the policy of racial segregation.  In the previous commentary, "Apartheid" seems to suggest a policy of religious segregation.  History would suggest that if the term "Apartheid" is applied in this manner, it would be applicable in the case that the "Palestinians" _[or more specifically HAMAS" (Islamic Resistance Movement)(Palestinian nationalism with Islamic fundamentalism)]_ were to be advancing the policy of the disintegration of Israel _(Islamics 'vs' Jewish)_ as a recognized state.

The Israeli policy of isolation and military containment in Gaza, for the purpose of neutralizing the flow of arms and munitions, should not be confused with any type of "Apartheid" _(religious or ethnic/racial)_.  While not the best strategy to be used, it is very standard 20th Century thinking to interdict the supply train of hostile forces accumulating deadly force instruments.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## abu afak (Nov 25, 2012)

RoccoR said:


> georgephillip,  _et al,_
> 
> Interesting.  I wonder what the agenda is here?
> .....
> ...


Hey Rocco.
You Get a vacation from DP for that too candid assessment of Palestinian *cult*ure?

Try: Where Hatred Trumps Bread - WSJ.com

abu afak/mbig
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## georgephillip (Nov 25, 2012)

RoccoR said:


> georgephillip,  _et al,_
> 
> Interesting.  I wonder what the agenda is here?
> 
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R...

When you say the State of Israel is a democracy, what Eastern border for the Jewish state are you assuming. If Israel encompasses all the land between the Mediterranean and the Jordan and there are almost a million more Arabs than Jews living there, I don't see how Jewish rule and democracy are compatible.

I see the Palestinians of today in opposition to nearly a century of "creeping annexation and transfer" policies at the hands of the Zionists.


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## eots (Nov 25, 2012)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=aOQqhvplwdY&feature=endscreen]Truth About Israel - American Media Won&#39;t Tell You - YouTube[/ame]


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## abu afak (Nov 25, 2012)

Eots the Clown- debate by Dubious/Goofy youtube- his mainstay.

Intellect from Credible sources not his thing.
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## eots (Nov 25, 2012)

abu afak said:


> Eots the Clown- debate by Dubious/Goofy youtube- his mainstay



I find most of your post goofy...goofy and most often lacking any credible source...unlike these videos


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## proudveteran06 (Nov 25, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> Two core questions that need to be answered: what kind of state is Israel and "who are the Palestinians that state is in conflict with?"
> 
> The CounterPunch POV:
> 
> ...






Middle East
http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=200935


" PALESTINE" WILL BE A NJA STATE !!!!!

Abbas vows: No room for Israelis in Palestinian state

By KHALED ABU TOAMEH

LAST UPDATED: 12/25/2010 17:33

PA president says US has failed to pressure J&#8217;lem, accuses Israel of &#8216;deception&#8217; for blaming PA for impasse in talks.
Photo: AP
 Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas announced on Saturday that when a Palestinian state is established, it will have no Israelis in it.

&#8220;We have frankly said, and always will say: If there is an independent Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital, we won&#8217;t agree to the presence of one Israeli in it,&#8221; Abbas told reporters in Ramallah.

RELATED:
Abbas: We reached deal with Olmert on security
Washington Watch: Settlements are excuse, not obstacle

He was commenting on unconfirmed reports suggesting that the PA leadership might agree to the presence of the IDF in the West Bank after the establishment of a Palestinian state.

&#8220;We are ready to have peace on the basis of international legitimacy and the road map, which we have accepted, as well as the Arab Peace Initiative,&#8221; Abbas said. &#8220;But when a Palestinian state is established, it would have no Israeli presence in it.&#8221;

The PA president criticized Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu and accused him of placing obstacles on the road to peace.

&#8220;He who prefers settlements over peace is responsible for the obstacles to peace,&#8221; he added.

&#8220;If he really was interested in peace, he would have at least preferred peace to settlements.&#8221;

Abbas accused the Israeli government of &#8220;deception&#8221; with the purpose of blaming the Palestinians for the current impasse in the peace talks. He also criticized the US administration for failing to put pressure on Israel to stop the construction in the settlements and east Jerusalem.

&#8220;The US administration has tried to stop the settlements, but Netanyahu refused,&#8221; he said. &#8220;We know that there&#8217;s a clear American position, but these days we don&#8217;t hear it any more. We hope we will hear it in the future.&#8221;

Abbas said that the PA has presented in writing to the US its position regarding all the core issues, but has still not heard Israel&#8217;s reply.

&#8220;All the final-status issues must be solved according to international resolutions,&#8221; he said. &#8220;All these issues will be resolved at the negotiating table, and this includes the issue of the refugees, which Israel tried to get rid of, but to no avail.&#8221;


 Does the Pro- Palestinian poster see anything wrong with the above?  Of course not.  Are there Muslims in " Israel proper?"  Of course there are.  Just one more example of how Pro- Palestinian posters are incapable of intelligent discussion


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## eots (Nov 25, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> georgephillip said:
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> > Two core questions that need to be answered: what kind of state is Israel and "who are the Palestinians that state is in conflict with?"
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*no link*


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## proudveteran06 (Nov 25, 2012)

artfulcodger said:


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Click here: Abbas vows: No room for Israelis in Palest... JPost - Middle East  http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=200935 *Every Copy and Paste Needs To Be Linked To It's Source.*

Dude;  Here is the link to the article I posted. The " broader implications" of what I posted is that I believe Israel has the right to exist ?  Too bad.  Israel ( which does have Arabs) is considered " Racist" but Abbas having a NJA Policy isn't?  Typical Pro- Palestinian racist double standard. " Israel proper" isn't a term I made up. It's a term others have used in referring to the 1967 Borders that the Arabs never accepted.   I will ask again.... EXACTLY what are the Palestinians contributing to " negotiations?"   There will not be an answer.... there never is.  Pro- Palestinian are a Classic example of Bigotry, Hate, and drinking the Pro- Palestinian Kool- Aid.


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## Hossfly (Nov 25, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


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Abbas vows: No room for Israelis in Palest... JPost - Middle East


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## RoccoR (Nov 25, 2012)

abu afak/mbig,

Yes, unfortunately I probably will not be back to DP.



abu afak said:


> Hey Rocco.
> You Get a vacation from DP for that too candid assessment of Palestinian *cult*ure?


*(COMMENT)*

While I did send "Serenity" a link one the discovery of the MAO-A gene, and synopsis where studies have found that high testosterone, maternal tobacco smoking during pregnancy, poor material living standards, dropping out of school, and low IQ can also trigger violent behavior in men with the low-activity alleles_ (which are overwhelmingly the 3R allele)_, I don't think they have an understanding of where I was coming from.  In my comment, I truncated the technical gene to DNA, and low IQ to gray matter. 

I actually had a good time on DP, but I don't think it makes sense for me to stick around where the Moderators associate me with hate speech.  In fact, I was quite shocked that I was targeted, given the (relatively) positive solutions I supported.

Well, take care.

v/r
R


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## RoccoR (Nov 25, 2012)

georgephillip,  _et al,_

This is (actually) a good question.



georgephillip said:


> R...
> 
> When you say the State of Israel is a democracy, what Eastern border for the Jewish state are you assuming. If Israel encompasses all the land between the Mediterranean and the Jordan and there are almost a million more Arabs than Jews living there, I don't see how Jewish rule and democracy are compatible.
> 
> I see the Palestinians of today in opposition to nearly a century of "creeping annexation and transfer" policies at the hands of the Zionists.


*(COMMENT)*

The democratic/parliamentary aspect of Israel is based on the citizenry of Israel and not borders.  As we all know, the entire issue of borders is argumentative in nature.  It is exceptionally hard to discuss the topic without it disintegrating in an uncivil manner.  But all throughout the lands controlled by Israel, there are citizens of the state.  And they have representation in the Knesset.   Thus, similar to the US/UK style of government, they are a representative-democracy.  And just like in the US/UK, you only have a voice if you are a citizen; not resident aliens or other non-citizens.

Now, citizenship, like in the US/UK is not based on religious affiliation.  So, there are many non-Jewish citizens of Israel.



> According to Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics, the Arab population in 2010 was estimated at 1,573,000, representing 20.4% of the country's population.[4] The majority of these identify themselves as Arab or Palestinian by nationality and Israeli by citizenship.[5][6][7]
> SOURCE:  Arab citizens of Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Most Respectfully,
R


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## proudveteran06 (Nov 25, 2012)

Hossfly said:


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" Free Palestine"  Translation; Israel does not have the right to exist. That is why there will never be a " Palestinian State"


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## P F Tinmore (Nov 25, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
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> > Two core questions that need to be answered: what kind of state is Israel and "who are the Palestinians that state is in conflict with?"
> ...





> Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas announced on Saturday that when a Palestinian state is established, it will have no Israelis in it.



There are no Palestinians in Israel either.

Is there a point here?


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## Hossfly (Nov 25, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


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Free Palestinians - from Palestinians


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## P F Tinmore (Nov 25, 2012)

RoccoR said:


> georgephillip,  _et al,_
> 
> This is (actually) a good question.
> 
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> The democratic/parliamentary aspect of Israel is based on the citizenry of Israel and not borders. As we all know, the entire issue of borders is argumentative in nature. It is exceptionally hard to discuss the topic without it disintegrating in an uncivil manner. But all throughout the lands controlled by Israel, there are citizens of the state.



Israel is unique in the world because it is a government with a population but no territory.


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## proudveteran06 (Nov 26, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


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There are Arabs in Israel.  Abbas has made it perfectly clear there will be no Jews/ Israelis in the Palestinian State. That is the difference.   Do you understand now?  Of course not; Anyone with the Pro- Palestinian mentality wouldn't.


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## P F Tinmore (Nov 26, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


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The posted quote did not mention Jews.


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## RoccoR (Nov 26, 2012)

P F Tinmore,  _et al,_

Well, this is not quite right.

I said this:



RoccoR said:


> The democratic/parliamentary aspect of Israel is based on the citizenry of Israel and not borders.



Not this.


P F Tinmore said:


> Israel is unique in the world because it is a government with a population but no territory.



Of course Israel has territory.  
SOURCE:  A/PV.207 of 11 May 1949


> At the invitation of the President, the delegation of Israel took its place in the General Assembly.



Most Respectfully,
R


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## docmauser1 (Nov 26, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> _The CounterPunch POV: "Israel was established to be a Jewish state._


The Saudi Arabia was established to be an arab state, etc.. Counterpunch are dumbass masturbants, of course.


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## P F Tinmore (Nov 26, 2012)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
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> Well, this is not quite right.
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Where does it say in your link that Israel acquired territory?


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## RoccoR (Nov 26, 2012)

P F Tinmore,  et al,

You have to read the entire, Plenary Meeting submission, to include the British Mandate Termination and the Israeli Application.



P F Tinmore said:


> Where does it say in your link that Israel acquired territory?


*(ANSWER)*

For your convenience, I have linked the sub-link of the Application.  Please note Subsection F of Part I, and Part II in Boundaries - Subjection B.  (A:  Arab State, B: Jewish State, C:  The City of Jerusalem)  

It is important to note all of these in order to get a complete 1948 picture.

SOURCE:  A/RES/181(II) of 29 November 1947

*(COMMENT)*

It is a matter of record that the UN General Assembly adopted this partition under Resolution 181, which essentially ratified the British Proposal and set the original boundaries for Israel; which we refer to today as the 1948 Boundaries.

I sincerely apologize for not being clear.  I made the assumption that when citing the UN Acceptance that it would be understood that the "Application" and "British Recommendation," which where annexes to the Plenary Meeting record, where included.

The territory set by the British and adopted by the UN General Assembly are a matter of record, as sited above.  You actually cannot hold a seat in the General Assembly if they don't know where your country is located.  They just don't do business that way.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## docmauser1 (Nov 26, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> _Where does it say in your link that Israel acquired territory?_


When have palistanians (never having a state, borders and who aren't even a people) ever had territory for others to acquire?


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## jillian (Nov 26, 2012)

toastman said:


> looks like georgieboy just got owned again



mah nishtanah halailah hazeh micol halailot?


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## Jos (Nov 26, 2012)

jillian said:


> toastman said:
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Mah nishtana halaila hazeh mikol-haleilot?
Why is this night different from all other nights?


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## toastman (Nov 26, 2012)

Jos said:


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How many Iranians died at the hands of their government during the protest


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## Jos (Nov 26, 2012)

toastman said:


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Wrong forum, shlomo


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## RoccoR (Nov 26, 2012)

docmauser1; P F Tinmore, _et al,_

Palestine was never a country.  It has always been a Region Destination, like saying today, "The Middle East."  Maybe 3000 years ago, most of what was Palestine was divided into two Kingdoms:


The northern portion of Palestine was (the first) Kingdom of Israel.  
The southern portion of Palestine was Kingdom of Judah.

But this is very ancient history and not really applicable today.  But back then, both the Israelis and the Judeans were Palestinians. 

The Region of Palestine was one of the most heavily conquered regions in history.  Nearly every empire owned it at one time or another.  The last empire to own the region was the Ottoman Empire.  At the conclusion of the WWII, Palestine was carved out of the British Mandate, along with other lands under the French and the British Mandates: 


Iraq --  from British Mandate 1921
Jordan -- from British Mandate 1921
Saudi Arabia -- by Ibn Saud in 1932
Lebanon -- from French Mandate 1943
Syria -- from French Mandate 1946
Israel -- from British Mandate 1949
etc



docmauser1 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > _Where does it say in your link that Israel acquired territory?_
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

The _(British)_ "Mandate of Palestine (1920/23)," under the signatory of the Legue of Nations following WWI, reaasserted the name "Palestine."   And in 1948, Israel was again reconstituted as a Country _(name sake for the Kingdom of 3 Centuries past)_. 

Under the "Mandate of Palestine" there was always an intention of establishing a National Home _(not further identified)_ for the Jewish People (NHJP).  The NHJP was supposed to be protected jointly by the British and the Arab Hashemite leadership.  _(Today we see how well that assigned Arab responsibility worked for us.)_

What is of special interest, is that the Arabs had leftover land to create a second state; some of which today is called the "Occupied Territories."  However, the Arab leadership never took a leadership role in developing these lands.  They could have created a Kingdom of Palestine, if they had taken the initiative a half century ago.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## AbeBird (Nov 26, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> Two core questions that need to be answered: what kind of state is Israel and "who are the Palestinians that state is in conflict with?"
> [/url]



Counterpunch is countertruth. And you are a lier.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 26, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> artfulcodger said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...


Within which borders does the Jewish State have a right to exist?
Specifically, what's Israel's Eastern border?
How much room will be left for six million Arabs?

"Netanyahu opposes all Palestinian Arab claims for a state of their own and favors measures to restrict the rights of Arabs. whether within Israel or the West Bank.  Jabotinsky was very close to Mussolinis brand of fascism, and the Revisionist youth movement, Betar, maintained a naval academy in Italy from 1934 to 1938. But even Jabotinsky believed that Arabs should play some part in Israels political process, *but always, of course, subservient to Jews*."

The Enigma of Israel » Counterpunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 26, 2012)

AbeBird said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > Two core questions that need to be answered: what kind of state is Israel and "who are the Palestinians that state is in conflict with?"
> ...


"Zionism was supposed to make Jewish existence 'normal;'  very different than in a Diaspora peopled by goyim, but there is nothing 'normal' in the life and culture of Israel today&#8212;which has not lived in peace with its neighbors, much less let the Palestinians have elementary human rights in the lands in which they have lived for thousands of years.  

"If war is the criteria of 'normal' existence, *then Zionism has become a failed nightmare*.   It was, when first conceptualized, not supposed to be this way."

The Enigma of Israel » Counterpunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 26, 2012)

docmauser1 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > _The CounterPunch POV: "Israel was established to be a Jewish state._
> ...


How many Jewish children have Saudis killed?


----------



## Hossfly (Nov 26, 2012)

Jos said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Jos said:
> ...


I guess Mr. Gooz here doesn't want us to discuss the Iranian protestors who were killed by his own leaders.  So tell us, Mr. Gooz, even though evidently you don't like it brought up, why do they really have to rape the young women thrown into the prisons there the night before these young women are to be killed?   Is it really important that these young women are not virgins before they are killed?  Isn't it enough that these young women realize that they are going to be murdered?


----------



## proudveteran06 (Nov 26, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> docmauser1 said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...



Another stupid question due to Pro- Palestinian ignorance.   Jews are VERBOTEN in Saudi Arabia.   Is that racist?    According to the Pro- Palestinian mentality.... Naaaaaa


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 26, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > docmauser1 said:
> ...


Arabs aren't occupying Israeli cities, blockading Israeli ports, violating Israeli airspace with manned and unmanned aircraft, and Arabs are not currently murdering, maiming, incarcerating, and displacing tens of thousands of Israeli children. The fact that Saudi Arabia is a racist, misogynistic, theocratic hell-hole says absolutely nothing about the morality of the Jewish occupation of Palestine.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Nov 27, 2012)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  et al,
> 
> You have to read the entire, Plenary Meeting submission, to include the British Mandate Termination and the Israeli Application.
> 
> ...





> The territory set by the British and adopted by the UN General Assembly are a matter of record, as sited above.



Well, no it isn't. UN General Assembly resolution 181 was a *non binding recommendation* for the Security Council to implement the partition of Palestine. The Security Council did not implement the partition.

There was good reason for the Security Council to reject the partition plan. Implementing the plan without the consent of the Palestinians would have been a violation of the Palestinian's rights under international law and a violation of the UN Charter.

The basic right to self determination without external interference as enshrined in international law is the hinge pin for many other international laws. Palestine has been under the boot of external interference since the demise of the Ottoman empire. Violations of their rights do not negate those rights.



> You actually cannot hold a seat in the General Assembly if they don't know where your country is located.  They just don't do business that way.



That is true with the exception of Israel. One of the requirements of a legitimate state is a defined territory. When I stated that "Israel is unique in the world because it is a government with a population but no territory" it was not just an opinion. Since Israel has no defined territory, the UN uses the 1949 armistice agreement lines do define Israel's territory. This is a curious position for the UN to take since the 1949 UN armistice agreements specifically state that those lines are not to be considered political or territorial borders.


----------



## RoccoR (Nov 27, 2012)

P F Tinmore,  _et al,_

This is where you and I agree on some very critical points.  In another thread: 





RoccoR said:


> artfulcodger,



I mention that I believe that the Palestinians (some, not all) have grounds for a civil cause of action.  And this, has a direct bearing on the dispute.  I agree that UN Res 181, as an authoritative document, is defective. 



P F Tinmore said:


> > The territory set by the British and adopted by the UN General Assembly are a matter of record, as sited above.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, no it isn't. UN General Assembly resolution 181 was a *non binding recommendation* for the Security Council to implement the partition of Palestine. The Security Council did not implement the partition.


*(COMMENT)*

Yes, agreed.  You asked about the territory.  And the Application, which was accepted, for a seat at the table, were the boundaries used.  But, as you so (very) rightly observe, the question is not settled.  The war is not truly over.  The Armistice, in effect, granted a stay of execution.



P F Tinmore said:


> There was good reason for the Security Council to reject the partition plan. Implementing the plan without the consent of the Palestinians would have been a violation of the Palestinian's rights under international law and a violation of the UN Charter.
> 
> The basic right to self determination without external interference as enshrined in international law is the hinge pin for many other international laws. Palestine has been under the boot of external interference since the demise of the Ottoman empire. Violations of their rights do not negate those rights.
> 
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

When participants to these discussion talk, the exchange generally centers around who's fault it is: "THEM" versus "US;" more accurately - the "Israelis" versus "Arabs (Palestinians)."  I tend to think this notion is flawed.  It is not eithers fault, but the both contribute to the continued aggravation of the conditions, and have _(together)_ probably made it an unsolvable equation.

I think that the International Community_ (at the time)(in particularly the British and French)_, the reigning Arab Leadership, and the United States _(as the major world power in the west)_ bare the lion's share of the responsibility for the dispute, the actions and the conditions that set the inevitability of the war --- and the follow-on 50 years of conflict.  Collectively, these players made a huge series of mistakes that they have not been able to go back and correct, causing the bloodletting _(a regional cascade failure)_.

The US encouraged the Jewish Settlers to take the bold action of declaring independence.
The French basically pulled away and gave into the "Ostrich Effect."  _(Head in the sand.)_
The British did the old _"Pontius Pilate"_ trick and washed their hands of it.  Knowing that as the last boot left, a war would start.  They where not happy with the Israelis and considered all the major Jewish Leaders as Terrorists _(with some justification)_.  Let the decision be decided in battle.  They expected a decisive defeat.
The British & French - together - as soulmates of colonial powers - didn't handle the former Ottoman Empire in the best interest of the indigenous populations and were hesitant of relinquishing control.
The International Community just played the role of bean counter _(who has what)_ but was at a loss for developing a solution.  And no one in the community of nations really acted to intervene and break-up the fight when it started.
At the time, the war in Europe had just ended.  The "Cold War" was just starting, and the nations most able to contribute to a solution were tired.  There were bigger fish to fry, and no one really wanted to engage in another foreign war.  Many thought that if they just ignored the problem, the Israelis and the Palestinians would tire of fighting and come to an equitable solution all on their own.  _(Boy, what a mistake that was!)_

You mentioned the "Right of Self Determination."  While US foreign Policy gives lip service to that notion, it is not a corner stone philosophy.  If you are a country of interest to the US, then you only have the "Right of Self Determination" if - and only if, your choice is in the best interest of the US.  That has been the stance of the US since the 1950s.  Otherwise you fall prey to US intervention for any number of reasons.  The US hegemony in the Middle East and Persian Gulf is becoming unsustainable.  It will eventually collapse.  It has all but receded to Bahrain and Kuwait.

The situation has been allowed to progress and fester for so long, no one really sees a viable solution to the Arab-Israeli dispute.  While the flare-ups and periodic outbreaks of hostilities can be attributed to one side or the other today, the root cause is not of their making.  The conditions for conflict between the Jews and the Palestinians _(really one and the same)_ were set by external forces beyond their control.  They were pawns.  And given the circumstances, probably could not have happened any other way.

In my discussions with "artfulcodger" in another thread, it is easy for me to see the conflict, one side - against another, and the desperate attempt to rationalize the actions and outcomes.  But the case of the Arab-Israeli Conflict is an example in which complex diplomatic actions and unpredictable results occur in an irrational way; generating a sequence of hostile events that we are unable to bring under control.  

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## docmauser1 (Nov 27, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> _Within which borders does the Jewish State have a right to exist?_


Within secure recognized borders, of course.


georgephillip said:


> _Specifically, what's Israel's Eastern border?_


Oh, that's easy. Israel-Jordan Peace Treaty. Annex I (a). Israel-Jordan International Boundary Delimitation and Demarcation, telling the facts, naming the names, of course.


georgephillip said:


> _How much room will be left for six million Arabs?_


The whole expanse of the arab states, of course. They are supposed to be brothers-sisters, or so they say, aren't they?


----------



## docmauser1 (Nov 27, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> docmauser1 said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...


Oh, so, if they hadn't, the Saudi Arabia wasn't established to be an arab state?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 27, 2012)

docmauser1 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > _Within which borders does the Jewish State have a right to exist?_
> ...


Are you delusional enough to believe five million Jews will transfer six million Arabs out of Palestine?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 27, 2012)

RoccoR said:


> georgephillip,  _et al,_
> 
> This is (actually) a good question.
> 
> ...


In most countries citizenship and nationality afford equal rights.
That doesn't seem to be the case in Israel, at least according to non-Jews:

"There is no such thing as 'Israeli' nationality.
&#9679; Jewish Nationality, however, is recognized. It is governed by the Law of 
Return (1950) which automatically assigns 'Jewish nationality' to every 
Jewish person in the world. 
&#9679; The Law of Return (1950) states a Jewish national is: 
 born of Jewish mother or has become converted to Judaism 
and is not a member of any other religion. 
&#9679; Rights of nationality are also vested in: 
 a child/grandchild of a Jew,  
 the spouse of a Jew,  
 the spouse of a child of a Jew,  
 or the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew  
unless they have been a Jew and voluntarily changed their religion."

http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrc/docs/ngos/BADIL_Israel-CERD80.pdf


----------



## irosie91 (Nov 28, 2012)

Palestine has been under the boot of external interference since the demise of the Ottoman empire. Violations of their rights do not negate those rights.


ROFLMAO        what an idiot----obviously never met an arab-------from the arabi islamicist POV----palestine was UNDER THE BOOT OF THE OTTOMANS    -----for the record---it was the OTTOMANS WHO HAPPILY SOLD LAND TO JEWS ----and by so doing---moderated the filth and stink of shariah.     Erdogan is now SEEKING LOVE----by promising to faithfully lick the ass of the rapist and impose the racist filth of shariah ---in order to realize his  IMPERAILIST PIG AMBITIONS


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 28, 2012)

irosie91 said:


> Palestine has been under the boot of external interference since the demise of the Ottoman empire. Violations of their rights do not negate those rights.
> 
> 
> ROFLMAO        what an idiot----obviously never met an arab-------from the arabi islamicist POV----palestine was UNDER THE BOOT OF THE OTTOMANS    -----for the record---it was the OTTOMANS WHO HAPPILY SOLD LAND TO JEWS ----and by so doing---moderated the filth and stink of shariah.     Erdogan is now SEEKING LOVE----by promising to faithfully lick the ass of the rapist and impose the racist filth of shariah ---in order to realize his  IMPERAILIST PIG AMBITIONS


*Whose rights are being violated and negated in today's Palestine:*

Should Israel enact public policies that favor Jews over Arabs?
Would you ROFLMAO while shitting the word "apartheid?"

"*That many Jews believe that Israel has adopted 'apartheid' policies* is surprising, given that the term is usually deployed only by Israel's most vociferous critics, and suggests that the government-led narrative that the Jewish State is the only democracy in the Middle East is unconvincing to some.

"But such self-awareness does not mean that Israelis are ashamed of it. 

"Nearly 70 per cent of those questioned would object to the 2.5 million Palestinians living in the West Bank obtaining the vote if Israel was to annex the Palestinian territory, *suggesting that they effectively endorse an apartheid regime.*" 

The new Israeli apartheid: Poll reveals widespread Jewish support for policy of discrimination against Arab minority - Middle East - World - The Independent


----------



## RoccoR (Nov 28, 2012)

georgephillip,  _et al,_

This is one-sided and confused.



georgephillip said:


> In most countries citizenship and nationality afford equal rights.
> That doesn't seem to be the case in Israel, at least according to non-Jews:
> 
> "There is no such thing as 'Israeli' nationality.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

You have to read the entire "Basic Law" on citizenship.  Like all countries, there is a process.  The law covers several categories, just like in the US:


Right of Return
Citizenship by Birth
Citizenship by Naturalization
Citizenship by Residence

The case cited in the above article is a case that was decided pertaining to one man; and not an entire class of people or to change existing law.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## ima (Nov 28, 2012)

So if the Pals all turn Jewish, they can all go back to Israel?


----------



## docmauser1 (Nov 28, 2012)

ima said:


> _So if the Pals all turn Jewish, they can all go back to Israel?_


No, to Egypt.


----------



## ima (Nov 28, 2012)

docmauser1 said:


> ima said:
> 
> 
> > _So if the Pals all turn Jewish, they can all go back to Israel?_
> ...



But if a beaner like Lips can call herself a Jew, why can't the Pals all become Jewish and live in Israel?


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Nov 28, 2012)

ima said:


> So if the Pals all turn Jewish, they can all go back to Israel?



Sure they could.  That's the law.  But they don't have to convert to move to Israel.  Israel's laws for immigrants other than Jews are about the same as those in the US, so just as many Palestinian Arabs have moved to the US, they could move to Israel if they applied to the government.  In fact, during the Oslo period before the second intifada, about 100,000 Arabs from the territories became Israeli citizens under the family reunification act.  The Arab Israeli who place the bomb on the bus in Tel Aviv recently was one of them.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 28, 2012)

"From 1993 to 2003 between 100,000 and 140,000 Palestinians from West Bank and Gaza became legal residents and have settled in Israel. After 2003 the process was halted as a result of Israeli Nationality and Entry Law."

Palestinian immigration (Israel) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Nov 28, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> "From 1993 to 2003 between 100,000 and 140,000 Palestinians from West Bank and Gaza became legal residents and have settled in Israel. After 2003 the process was halted as a result of Israeli Nationality and Entry Law."
> 
> Palestinian immigration (Israel) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Indeed, during the second intifada, citizenship through family reunification was suspended, because some of these new Israeli citizens were implicated in terrorism and later the law was amended so that applicants were subjected to more thorough security examinations.  The Arab who placed the bomb on a Tel Aviv bus recently, was one of those who became an Israeli citizen through the family reunification law.

Clearly, when the Israelis hoped the Palestinian Arabs had decided to live with them in peace, Arabs who wanted to emigrate to Israel were welcomed, but that hope was lost during the second intifada.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 29, 2012)

toomuchtime_ said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > "From 1993 to 2003 between 100,000 and 140,000 Palestinians from West Bank and Gaza became legal residents and have settled in Israel. After 2003 the process was halted as a result of Israeli Nationality and Entry Law."
> ...


Clearly the Zionist terrorism of "creeping annexation" and "creeping transfer" will never be acceptable to Palestinian Arabs.


----------



## irosie91 (Nov 29, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...




   georgie  endorses with ENTHUSIASM -------MALIGNANT ISLAMIC IMPERIALISM   ---an ideology which defines   ANY LAND UPON WHICH A MUSLIM EITHER DEFECATED OR RAPED
as   MUSLIM LAND FOREVER        I learned about the definition of  "MUSLIM LAND"    at the age of 14---(which was a long time ago)      I encountered a pakistani kid of the same age         He was in the USA   because he was the son of a pakistani diplomat.    Bright boy---he could parrot the islamo nazi propganda chapter and verse  ------just like georgie can-----but HIS name was   "MUHUMMAD"       For the record---ALL OF THE INDIAN SUBCONTINENT  is also    "MUSLIM LAND"  forever       I learned all about the 
"MOGHUL EMPIRE"     at about age 20     from a muslim surgeon from New Dehli

when georgie's  hero   OSAMA   mentioned the  TRAGEDY OF ANDALUSIA   in one of his 
videoed appearances -------he was claiming   SPAIN     as  MUSLIM LAND FOREVER ---too.

be not confounded----the idea that muslims own the world was   ASSERTED in a UN SPEECH    from the mouth of   ACHMADINEJAD     when he announced that   "ISLAM IS 
THE RELIGION FOR THE WORLD"    

     Totalitarian utopian ideologies have been responsible for virtually ever genocide
     on the planet------from the  'holy'  ROMAN EMPIRE ----TO THE GLORIOUS AGE OF 
     OF ISLAMIC CONQUEST -----and------of course----communism     which is yet 
     another totalitarian utopian ideology------fortunately not so persistent 
     as the  REICHS  AND ISLAMICISM


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 29, 2012)

Five million Jews think their G-d gave them the right to rule over six million Arabs.
That's a totalitarian ideology that depends on BILLION$ of US tax dollars to maintain.
Not so much for alleged Andulusian apoplexy.


----------



## irosie91 (Nov 29, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> Five million Jews think their G-d gave them the right to rule over six million Arabs.
> That's a totalitarian ideology that depends on BILLION$ of US tax dollars to maintain.
> Not so much for alleged Andulusian apoplexy.




I have known lots of jews in my life and never encountered one who thought that they are 
endowed with a RIGHT to rule  arabs       I learned lots about jewish theology and ideology---and never encountered any belief  regarding  RULING other people or even  SEEKING  to build  POWER  by   seeking   JOINERS in the form of converts.       ON THE OTHER HAND----I noticed in early childhood that  christians do seek converts-------and later on -----I learned that  muslims do believe that  ISLAM MUST RULE THE WORLD.     I have also noticed that there are lots of idiots in the world who imagine they KNOW  something 
about jews and judaism -------despite absolute ignorance on the subject.    

as to muslims---I notice yet another phenomenon------that of  INTENSE PROJECTION    
Muslims are FERVENT CONVERT SEEKERS----to the point of many many programs of
  CONVERT OR DIE  ---in virtually all lands invaded by or controlled by muslims.    Jews 
  have a long history of  DISCOURAGING conversion----which is not unique 
  in the world     Zoroastrians   do not allow it at all.    Yet seemingly intelligent muslims
  from foreign lands have  ASSERTED TO ME     "JEWS WANT ALL THE MUSLIMS TO 
  CONVERT TO JUDAISM"          the first time I heard that one I almost lost 
  my mouthful of coca cola---------EZRA probably flipped over----(an anti conversion 
  prophet)


----------



## Lipush (Nov 29, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> Five million Jews think their G-d gave them the right to rule over six million Arabs.



Where did you get your math degree, University of clowns?


----------



## irosie91 (Nov 29, 2012)

Lipush said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > Five million Jews think their G-d gave them the right to rule over six million Arabs.
> ...





    georgie    I am curious too-----I was born in the USA----I am  uhm   "middle aged" 
--daughter of jewish parents also born in the USA----and educated in pubic schools from
 kindergarten thru college --------uhm----can you provide some non specific aspects of 
 yourself --------we know that Lipush is in Israel and----probably speaks spanish----
 and may even eat  FRIJOLES   (did I spell that correctly  lipshi?)----I was a biology major
 in college   WAY BACK THEN.       Knowing a bit of a person's background helps one 
 understand his POV--------yours,  I might add------seems a bit weird----as if you have 
 no basis for "KNOWING"  ----but just  ASSUME ----based on---nothing


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 29, 2012)

Lipush said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > Five million Jews think their G-d gave them the right to rule over six million Arabs.
> ...


"According to these Israeli and Palestinian estimates, the population in Israel and the Palestinian Territories stands at 9.8&#8211;10.8 million."

Do you accept these numbers as a starting point?

Demographics of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Hossfly (Nov 29, 2012)

irosie91 said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...


Since Georgie Boy never wants to give away any of his background when asked, for all we know he was one of those who left Iran after the Revolution (and is probably retired now since he has plenty of time to stay on the message board and jump right in to respond to posts), moved to Los Angeles like many Iranian Muslims did, but still hates the Jews and Israel just like many of the Iranian Muslims living here.  I heard years ago from someone who was in the rug business that now that the Jewish rug dealers have left Iran, the Muslims have taken over.  For all we know, if Georgie Boy had stayed, he might be a successful rug dealer in Tehran right now.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 29, 2012)

irosie91 said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...


Rosie...I was born in Michigan in 1947 and have lived in southern California for the last sixty-plus years. Public education from K-14.
How do you "know" Israel has a "right" to rule over all of Palestine?


----------



## RoccoR (Nov 29, 2012)

georgephillip,  _et al,_

The reverse and the inverse of this question are just as valid.



georgephillip said:


> How do you "know" Israel has a "right" to rule over all of Palestine?


*(COMMENT)*


How do you know that Israel does not have the right to rule over the area it now controls?
How do you know the Arabs have the right to rule?

The weakness here, of course, is that establishing a "right to rule" is entirely the wrong question.  Prior to Israeli control, the region was under French and British Mandates.  Prior to the Western Mandates, the entire region was under the Ottoman Empire for nearly 400 years; and the Empire of the Mamluks for 200 years before that.

I'm not saying that the Palestinians don't have a legitimate grievance, but under the rights of conquest, they clearly have not established the "right to rule." 

Residency, that is a different matter.  Land holdings, that is a different matter.  But an inherent right, or a moral or ethnically bound "right;" they don't have.  Palestine, as a region, but never a country, has been conquered more so than almost any other region of the world.  

This Arab-Israeli conflict is a dispute over a question that has no answer.  Neither side is completely right or wrong.  But they argue as if territorial rule has some historic foundation; from ancient occupations.  Well, that is faulty; and the 21st Century Palestinian Arab should be thankful.  Because if we were still using the rights of conquest today, Israel has it.

This religious and ethnical base bickering needs to stop.  But I don't think either culture is intellectually set to resolve their differences.  

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Hossfly (Nov 29, 2012)

artfulcodger said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip,  _et al,_
> ...


Here Rocco expresses himself so politely, and Skitzo begins his ranting and raving act like a maniac who should be caged.  Who said all those Arabs were in the area all that time when so many came from the surrounding countries like Egypt for jobs that the Jews had for them, the same thing that you see happening today in our own country and in Europe when people from poorer countries come for the better opportunities.


----------



## RoccoR (Nov 29, 2012)

artfulcodger,  _et al,_

Where I have my home, has very little to do with the issue of sovereignty or territorial control.



artfulcodger said:


> wrong yet again Rocky...I find it mildly amusing that Israeli-sympathizers pontificate endlessly about the details of the conflict-history they scarcely begin to comprehend....let me help you out here:  13 successive centuries of residence are all the "rights' you need....does this kind of register in any of those clouded recesses of your ape-like mind???   European Jews had zero claim to these lands----zero claim....let me say it again so it resonates---ZERO FKG CLAIM !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


*(COMMENT)*

I own my home, and it is in the City of Reynoldsburg, State of Ohio, USA.  But if the State of Ohio dissolves the city charter and folds it over into the City of Columbus, then I live in Columbus.  

If the US sells that State of Ohio to Canada, or Canada invades and captures Ohio _(why they would want it --- I wouldn't know)_, then I live in Canada.  Land Grants, property ownership, historical residence have nothing to do with the national sovereignty.  

Ohio is an American-Indian name.  This entire region (The Ohio Valley) was once Shawnee Indians territory, then Iroquois territory.  My house sets not 20 miles from sacred Indian Burial Grounds.  But neither the Indians, or the French, or even the British that once controlled this valley are anywhere to be seen.  But for thousands of years, the American Indian lived on this land.  Now I live here.

National sovereignty _(under what system of government the land is ruled)_ is something entirely different than what you are talking about; a much different thing.  Other than nice to know trivia, "13 successive centuries of residence" get you nothing in term of national sovereignty.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Nov 30, 2012)

RoccoR said:


> artfulcodger,  _et al,_
> 
> Where I have my home, has very little to do with the issue of sovereignty or territorial control.
> 
> ...



OK, but let us say that Canada comes across Lake Erie and occupies Ohio. Until such time that there is an agreement between the US and Canada ceding that land, it still belongs to the US.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 30, 2012)

RoccoR said:


> georgephillip,  _et al,_
> 
> The reverse and the inverse of this question are just as valid.
> 
> ...


R: 

Israel has definitely conquered Palestine; however, the Jews had a little help beginning with Lord Balfour and Sir Ronald Storrs:

"Sir Ronald Storrs, the first Governor of Jerusalem, certainly had no illusions about what a 'Jewish homeland' in Palestine meant for the British Empire: 'It will form for England,&#8221; he said, &#8220;a little loyal Jewish Ulster in a sea of potentially hostile Arabism.'&#8221;

Arms sales and oil sales seem to prop up the Jewish State today in much the same way Sir Ronald (and Lord Rothschild) envisioned a century ago. It's barely possible to imagine that Jews and Arabs could have decided the "right to rule" issue at the ballot box in 1948, but it's impossible to imagine western imperial interests would have tolerated their decision.

BTW, your willingness to discuss these matters in a civil fashion is greatly appreciated.
Welcome to the asylum, R.

Divide and Conquer as Imperial Rules | FPIF


----------



## GHook93 (Nov 30, 2012)

In your own words:

"Biography 
A white male recently "retired" afte working 44 years in assorted minimum wage level jobs." 

Who is going to take your opinion serious. Only uneducated and clueless people can't rise above minimum wage! Sorry but few will take a person like you who wasted his entire life seriously! 





georgephillip said:


> Two core questions that need to be answered: what kind of state is Israel and "who are the Palestinians that state is in conflict with?"
> 
> The CounterPunch POV:
> 
> ...


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## toastman (Nov 30, 2012)

artfulcodger said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip,  _et al,_
> ...


You mad bro? Hahaha ya you're mad 
Who was the first king or ruler of the great Palestine that you say existed for so long? Surely you can answer that


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## P F Tinmore (Nov 30, 2012)

toastman said:


> artfulcodger said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



It is the people who are sovereign not a government.


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## georgephillip (Nov 30, 2012)

GHook93 said:


> In your own words:
> 
> "Biography
> A white male recently "retired" afte working 44 years in assorted minimum wage level jobs."
> ...


Care to respond to any *content*, Aristotle?

"The real challenge for change is a long-term one, *the fact of the matter is that last week&#8217;s war is a concentrated version of what happens throughout as a result of the settler-colonial project.*..."

"Miriyam Aouragh is a researcher and lecturer in Oriental and Middle East Studies at Oxford University. She is currently living and working in Palestine."

http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/11/30/pillars-or-pandoras/


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## docmauser1 (Nov 30, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> _"Miriyam Aouragh is a researcher and lecturer in Oriental and Middle East Studies at Oxford University. She is currently living and working in Palestine._


Let's name the names and call her a tovaristch agitprop kommissar, of course.


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## irosie91 (Nov 30, 2012)

Lets play   ADVOCATE  and accept  the TINNIE/GEORGIE---rights of residence   

I am all for it assuming it becomes a 
UNIVERSAL PRINCIPLE
    The people who have resided LONG
     in  "A LAND"   have rights of owner-
     ship over new comers and certainly
     over aggressors

    where does the  TINNIE/GEORGIE  
    principle  being us?    Lets 
    examine the INDIAN SUBCONTINENT--
       Hindus were in India for some 
       ? 5000 years before the dogs of
       outer mongolia invaded---thus
       india is ALL HINDU----in fact even
       jews were in India before the dogs
       got there---and some christians

   Lets examine Iran
       well----zoroastrians----still enough
       in MUMBAI and in ISRAEL and a few
       even hiding out in  Iran----and 
        ~~~ whatyakno~~~   JEWS AGAIN
            enough to take over


      Jerusalem--and Hebron----sorry boys~~
        fact is jews never left----always at least
        a few hiding out in the holy cities  
        Safed too

     uhm  EGYPT----well  jews and CHRISTIANS
     WIN AGAIN     

       shall we move on?     Afganistan---hindus,
          buddhists,   jews and christians


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Nov 30, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> Two core questions that need to be answered: what kind of state is Israel and "who are the Palestinians that state is in conflict with?"
> 
> The CounterPunch POV:
> 
> ...



I cannot help but add that Israel is a State that makes a practice out of killing Palestinians/nonJewish residents of Palestine.

Btslem dats shows Israel has killed over 8000 Palestinians, the majority civilians, that includes overr 1000 Palestinian children since the onset of The First Intifada in December of 1987.

Human rights groups write reports calling these civilian killings and child killings unlawful under The Fourth Geneva Convention and war crimes. See Amnesty and Human Rights Watch websites for their many reports.

Sherri


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## Hossfly (Nov 30, 2012)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > Two core questions that need to be answered: what kind of state is Israel and "who are the Palestinians that state is in conflict with?"
> ...


Call 911 and state your complaint.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Nov 30, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > artfulcodger,  _et al,_
> ...



And the UN Charter does not recognize the legitimacy of the acquisition of territory by military conquest!


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## Hossfly (Nov 30, 2012)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


Who cares?


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Nov 30, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...



Soon, Israeli child killers and civilian slaughterers are going to be hauled before The Hague and they are going to answer for their crimes!

I cannot wait to see that day, come!

Let it Come soon, Lord, come soon!


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## irosie91 (Nov 30, 2012)

sherri has supplied her background---clearly self describing herself as HEIRESS to the filth of the  "holy"  roman empire.    The roman empire,  pre CONSTANTINE  was extremly brutal ----but it was CONSTANTINE who impregnated it with the filth which is sherri---his filth was codified by his grandson ---in the JUSTINIAN CODE----which forms the basis for that which sherri likes best----the genocides of 
HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS by the  "ISA RESPECTERS"----an ongoing affair  in the hands of the ISA RESPECTERS who also  are MUHUMMAD RESPECTERS.      but repudiated by  MOST  CHRISTIANS of today.~~~~    
~~~~some remain~~~     one of sherri's notable heroes recently died>>>"dr"  Aribert Ferdinand Heim   aka  Tarek Hussein Farid 
  she apes his  writing  "style"  and general style


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Nov 30, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



People all over the world who respect international law!


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## irosie91 (Nov 30, 2012)

For those confused by   the allusion of islamo nazi sows to  "UNLAWFUL KILLING"    please keep in mind that  AL AZHAR UNIVERSITY---considered THE MAJOR AUTHORITY ON  KORANIC LAW BY SCORES OF MILLIONS OF MUSLIMS----has in the past few years rendered the KILLING OF ANY JEW---REGARDLESS OF AGE OF GENDER---to be legal------a few score years ago Al Azhar koranic scholars determined that the killing of any Israeli --regardless of age or gender is legal.    In her use of the term  LAW----it is important to know what law sherri refers.     The NUREMBURG LAWS legalized  genocide----in fact so did the JUSTINIAN LAWS which made legal the Inquisition bon fires in which sherri still delights


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## irosie91 (Nov 30, 2012)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



I grew up on the lands of the LENILENAPE INDIANS----it was the pigs 
of the  "HOLY ROMAN EMPIRE"  who murdered them.
In fact----since I am a jew----the only reason I lived there
 as a child is because the pigs of the 'holy' roman 
empire---needed to sell an excess of houses they 
had built in the post world war II era.   In prior times 
the nazi pigs and sows there kept the town  "RESTRICTED"


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## nesta (Nov 30, 2012)

israel is a racist state, clearly, the worlds only one.


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## toomuchtime_ (Nov 30, 2012)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



Bullshit.  The UN recognizes Israel on land it acquired during its War of Independence.  Under any reading of any international law or treaty, Israel has at least as much claim to the West Bank as the Palestinian mafia that runs the PA.  Since most of the world, including the UN, recognizes the land Israel acquire by conquest in the 1948-1950 war as legally and legitimately Israel's, there is no reason not to recognize the land it acquired in 1967 as legally and legitimately Israel's if Israel decides to claim it.  The land in question is the unincorporated remnants of the former Mandate for Palestine and no other country of people has a stronger legal claim to it than Israel.

This is a political issue, not a legal issue, and ill informed self righteous rants about international laws are irrelevant.


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## nesta (Nov 30, 2012)

toomuchtime_ said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



you are wrong.  intl law states you cannot keep land gained by war.  israel gained control of the west bank during the 67 war.  intl law makes it very clear israel has no right to any of that land and all settlements built on it are illegal.


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## toomuchtime_ (Nov 30, 2012)

nesta said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



You are mistaken.  The Hague Regulations and the UN Charter refer to lands captured by one country from another, the land Israel captured in 1967 belonged to no country and therefore no international law applies to it.  These lands were simply the unincorporated remnants of the former Mandate for Palestine just as the lands Israel captured in the 1948-1950 war which nearly the entire world, including the UN recognizes as legitimately and legally Israel's.


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## nesta (Nov 30, 2012)

toomuchtime_ said:


> nesta said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...



actually the un and the entire world except israel and america recognises thats nonsense.  land doesnt have to belong to a state, only to a people, there is no dispute it belonged to people, therefore israel has no right to it.   there is no point arguing the illegality of israels actions this is really old, basic stuff, everybody accepts they are in the wrong legally.  go and do some reading.


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## nesta (Nov 30, 2012)

Putting down the Propaganda, Fallacies, Mis-conceptions, Myths and Lies « First, find out what isn't true&#8230;


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## nesta (Nov 30, 2012)

&#8230;It&#8217;s actually quite simple. If it isn&#8217;t the &#8220;acknowledged&#8221; sovereign territory of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt or Israel, by default it&#8217;s a territory of Palestine, regardless of whether it is a state or not&#8230;


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## georgephillip (Nov 30, 2012)

"The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into *the territory* it occupies."

Fourth Geneva Convention - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Hossfly (Nov 30, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> "The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into *the territory* it occupies."
> 
> Fourth Geneva Convention - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


"There shall be no whine before it's time."
~~Tinhead the Terrible


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## toomuchtime_ (Nov 30, 2012)

nesta said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > nesta said:
> ...



If there is not a particular law that is being violated, then it makes no sense to talk about the legality of an action.


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## toomuchtime_ (Nov 30, 2012)

nesta said:


> Its actually quite simple. If it isnt the acknowledged sovereign territory of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt or Israel, by default its a territory of Palestine, regardless of whether it is a state or not



That may be your opinion, but there is no legal basis for that claim.  Again, this is a political issue, not a legal issue.


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## toomuchtime_ (Nov 30, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> "The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into *the territory* it occupies."
> 
> Fourth Geneva Convention - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Israel did not transfer its population to the West Bank any more than it has transferred Israeli citizens who live in the US to the US.  The Israeli government simply allowed its citizens to move to the West Bank or the US or elsewhere.  In fact, the Israeli government has acted to slow down the movement of Israelis to the West Bank by only approving a small percentage of the building permits applied for.


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## BecauseIKnow (Nov 30, 2012)

A state that sponsors violence by threatening the Palestinians or any activists of the matter who try to stop illegal settlement construction in occupied territories. They threaten them by arresting them or killing them.


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## toomuchtime_ (Nov 30, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> A state that sponsors violence by threatening the Palestinians or any activists of the matter who try to stop illegal settlement construction in occupied territories. They threaten them by arresting them or killing them.



The only illegal construction is that which has not been approved by the Israeli government.


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## BecauseIKnow (Nov 30, 2012)

toomuchtime_ said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
> 
> > A state that sponsors violence by threatening the Palestinians or any activists of the matter who try to stop illegal settlement construction in occupied territories. They threaten them by arresting them or killing them.
> ...



Only in the Israeli governments eyes......


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## toomuchtime_ (Nov 30, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > BecauseIKnow said:
> ...



No, it's a statement of fact.  For the construction to be illegal it would have to be in violation of a particular law and it is not.


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## BecauseIKnow (Nov 30, 2012)

toomuchtime_ said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...



I believe 'nesta' went over this with you on another thread......


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## toomuchtime_ (Nov 30, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > BecauseIKnow said:
> ...



She tried to, but couldn't support her claims.


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## irosie91 (Nov 30, 2012)

"because'   habibi      There are all kinds of "laws"  in the world    In Saudi arabia    there are LAWS  denying ----KAFFIRIN   the right to visit the birth place of the filthy stinking rapist pig   Muhummad----to wit MECCA     Who made that  "LAW"???    it is the law of that land-----the epicenter of the filth-----ARABIA       Are you suggesting that the only country in the world that can have  "LAWS"   is the land in which the pig was born?


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## BecauseIKnow (Nov 30, 2012)

irosie91 said:


> "because'   habibi      There are all kinds of "laws"  in the world    In Saudi arabia    there are LAWS  denying ----KAFFIRIN   the right to visit the birth place of the filthy stinking rapist pig   Muhummad----to wit MECCA     Who made that  "LAW"???    it is the law of that land-----the epicenter of the filth-----ARABIA       Are you suggesting that the only country in the world that can have  "LAWS"   is the land in which the pig was born?



lol you're such a clown.


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## docmauser1 (Nov 30, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> _"The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies."_


If we are wilfully ignoring article 2, aren't we? And we are, like Hansel, Carter's "legal" provider of peacemongering excuses, of course.


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## docmauser1 (Dec 1, 2012)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> _And the UN Charter does not recognize the legitimacy of the acquisition of territory by military conquest!_


Funny so, who tells that to the japanese still waiting for their southern Kurila islands? Those poor folks must be amazed by the blatant hypocricy of the UN, fussing about a bunch of rag-tagular arab settlers, who never had a valid legal excuse to the area, while ignoring an established legal sovereign that lost its land in violation of the non-aggression pact. So, let us drop this tune and return to our hilarious bible-thumping about jews treating muslims in a not-so-christian way, shall we?


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## ima (Dec 1, 2012)

*What Kind of State in Israel?*

It's the leader of the Axis of Zionism, of which there are only 9 members left.


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## georgephillip (Dec 1, 2012)

docmauser1 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > _"Miriyam Aouragh is a researcher and lecturer in Oriental and Middle East Studies at Oxford University. She is currently living and working in Palestine._
> ...


Hasbara-speak for "we will continue stealing all the land and water between the Mediterranean Sea and Jordan River because our G-d believes in keeping His collection plate full."

How's the backstroke working, drivel.
'Sure hope racist Jews can float.


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## georgephillip (Dec 1, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...


*Call Bibi and ask when he plans to begin honoring the ceasefire:*

"Since November 26th, 2012, 15 fishermen have been arrested and 6 boats destroyed. 

"As participants in an emergency delegation to Gaza, we have had the opportunity to speak to several of the fishermen arrested, members of their families, and a Palestinian activist, Maher Alaa, who was documenting the situation while aboard one of the adjacent boats, which also received heavy gunfire."

Counterpunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

*Killer Jews just can't stop killing, right, Killer?*


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## georgephillip (Dec 1, 2012)

toomuchtime_ said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


"The preamble[UNSCR 242] emphasizes the '*inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war* and the need to work for a just and lasting peace in the Middle East in which every State in the area can live in security.'

"Operative Paragraph One 'Affirms that the fulfillment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles:

(i) *Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict*;
(ii) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force." [4]

United Nations Security Council Resolution 242 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If the "chosen" people think they are going to rule all the land between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River by conquest, they are on the wrong side of History.(Again)


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## georgephillip (Dec 1, 2012)

toomuchtime_ said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > "The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into *the territory* it occupies."
> ...


I'm not aware of the IDF providing security for Israeli Jews living in the US.
Israel's government had no authority to provide any "building permits" on territory it acquired by conquest.
The Zionist imperative of "creeping annexation" (Dunam by dunam) has reached its logical, moral, and legal end point.
The only remaining question is when do the Jews start leaving the West Bank?


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## toastman (Dec 1, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...



Ah, simple answer. Never


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Dec 1, 2012)

toastman said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...



And Nazi Zionists have nice little Nazi Zionist boys like you to encourage their war crimes and murders against the children and civilian population of Palestine!


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## toastman (Dec 1, 2012)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...



Sherri, what is the definition of collateral damage?


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## RoccoR (Dec 1, 2012)

georgephillip, toomuchtime_, SherriMunnerlyn,  _et al,_

Our friend, georgephillip is absolutely correct.  UNSC 242 (S/RES/242 NOV 67) was adopted immediately after the 1967 Arab-Israeli War (5-11 JUNE 67) to prevent the permanent acquisition by conquest.  

The trouble with this is, some interpret UNSC Res 242 as "Retroactive Law."  The international community, watching the Arab Military build-up prior to the _(inevitable)_ conflict, never expected a decisive victory by the Israelis!  To negate the outcome, the resolution was passed to, in effect, reset the clock.

Contrary to popular belief, the UN (Charters VI: PACIFIC SETTLEMENT OF DISPUTES and CHAPTER VII: ACTION WITH RESPECT TO THREATS TO THE PEACE, BREACHES OF THE PEACE, AND ACTS OF AGGRESSION) does not address territorial concessions by conquest.  Neither Chapter addresses member nation territory or boundaries; or addresses the ramifications of conquest.  But Chapter V: THE SECURITY COUNCIL (Articles 24 and 25) do have an impact with respect to the implementation of UNSC Res 242 and 338 _(the companion)_.  

UNSC Res 242, and the companion UNSC Res 338 Arab-Israeli War of 1973, _(capture of Suez, the encirclement of Egyptian 3d Army, the advance to within 45km of Damascus, and the occupation of Golan Heights)_ revived the issued again.  At the beginning of the UNSC Res 338 (22 OCT 73) ceasefire, the Israeli holdings were substantial.  At the conclusion of the '67 War, the question was the return to the 1948 boundaries.  At the conclusion to '73 War, the call was the return to the '67 boundaries.



georgephillip said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

I happen to agree with the argument that the expansion by conquest does not further the cause of regional peace and stability.  But in order for such a concept to have any lasting impact, it must be accepted by both at Arab world, as well as the Israelis.  It is clear, that up through and including the Yom Kipper War _(4 major conflicts - the Arab Coalition vs Israel)_ that the Arab World is not ready to further the cause of regional peace and stability.  

Based on what has been observed to date, there is no reasonable expectation that we should see a change in the behavior of the Arab World.  No matter how many regime changes occur, no matter what promises have been made in the past, no matter what agreements has been signed, the Arab World in the Region will continue to periodically effect military build-ups and make an attempt to overrun Israel.  This, in turn requires Israel to secure strategic buffer zones around its territory to improve the ever mounting and inevitable attacks that can be expected by its _(not so friendly)_ neighbors. 

It really does not matter any more what the UN says or what the law says.  That has been transcended.  It doesn't really matter what the flavor of the day in leadership says, it doesn't really matter; it doesn't really matter what the conflict is about - they will make one excuse up or another for the justification to attack.  It is the history of the region and the habitual reflex of the Arab people to promote war and intolerance.  At the end of the day, everyone understands the inevitability of a future Arab attack; and they will continue until one side, or the other is _(not just defeated but)_ totally annihilated, extirpated to the root.  The Arab World can be defeated many times and recover its ever growing passion for cultural combat, but the Israelis need only lose once and they, as a culture and nation are extinguished.  While this raises hopes for the Arab people and is often cause for celebration, it does not further either the reputation of the culture or the advancement of peace and the species.  

I believe it is too late for humanity to save the Jewish Homeland or improve the heritage of the Arab people.  It is what it is.  Many of us have chosen sides, unwavering in our belief that we are in the absolute right; that the other side deserves eradication.  But history will not speak kindly of us, or the wisdom we've shown.  It will merely record that the world had a chance to secure peace in the region, but the barbarism of the time won-out.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## toomuchtime_ (Dec 1, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



242 addresses the parties to the conflict, Israel and the Arab states, and does not address any issues between Israel and any Palestinian state, real or imagined.  Regarding the West Bank and Gaza, the issues between Israel and the Arab states involved have been resolved, so 242 has no relevance any longer.


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## irosie91 (Dec 1, 2012)

no aquisition by war?     -----GOOD     east jerusalem was STOLEN  from a jewish population there which had resided there---sometimes SECRETLY  for more than 2000 years---in 1947 by a violent and deadly starvation siege inflicted on that 
population by  ISA RESPECTERS         illegal theft of jerusalem by the  ISA RESPECTER PIGS      Interestingly enough----NABLUS    which was orginally  SHECHEM ----was stolen by 
the ROMAN EMPIRE------and ruled with an oppressive hand by PIG IMPERIALIST CONSTANTINE------illegal aquisition


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## irosie91 (Dec 1, 2012)

Georgie has not revealed his background---but sherri has----as an heiress to the  filth of the  first, second and third reichs-------murderers of not millions but HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS----the pigs of the second reich even murdered millions in the americas -------raped and confiscated and enslaved children----IN THE MILLIONS        Some things never change----CULTURE is transmitted in all its filth----generation to generation 

anyone interested in the filth with which sherri is imbued ---should read such notable words as   CHILDHOOD AND SOCIETY


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## georgephillip (Dec 1, 2012)

toastman said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...


The Fourth Geneva Convention.
Section III.
Article 49.

Seems pretty straightforward to me.
Would you be less confused if five million Arabs were occupying six million Jews in Palestine?


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## toastman (Dec 1, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...



Let me ask you something. How did Israel come to occupying the West Bank ?


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## toomuchtime_ (Dec 1, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> toomuchtime_ said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...



Since the disputed territories were not sovereign territories when they fell under Israel's control, there are no treaties or international laws that can be appealed to to establish Israel's authority to issue building permits or to dispute its authority.  These are political issues, not legal issues, and as such, rights and authorities can only be established by war or negotiation.  If the Palestinian Arabs are unhappy about the building permits the Israeli government is approving, the way to settle this issue is to come to the negotiating table and make realistic proposals for a final settlement that would explicitly state the extent of the Israeli government's rights and authorities.  

As long as the Palestinian Arabs continue to talk about Israel while refusing to talk to Israel, it is fair to assume they have abandoned all interest in influencing facts on the ground and have de facto approved the policies of the Israeli government even as they whine about them.


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## P F Tinmore (Dec 1, 2012)

RoccoR said:


> georgephillip, toomuchtime_, SherriMunnerlyn,  _et al,_
> 
> Our friend, georgephillip is absolutely correct.  UNSC 242 (S/RES/242 NOV 67) was adopted immediately after the 1967 Arab-Israeli War (5-11 JUNE 67) to prevent the permanent acquisition by conquest.
> 
> ...





> UNSC 242 (S/RES/242 NOV 67) was adopted immediately after the 1967 Arab-Israeli War (5-11 JUNE 67) to prevent the permanent acquisition by conquest.



 UNSC 242 did not create the law against acquisition of land by conquest. It merely referenced existing law.


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## P F Tinmore (Dec 1, 2012)

toomuchtime_ said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...



So are you saying that Jordan and Egypt did not occupy the West Bank and Gaza?

What then were those relationships?


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## georgephillip (Dec 1, 2012)

toomuchtime_ said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...


242 addressed the issue of "land for peace", calling for Israeli withdrawal from "territories" it occupied in 1967 in exchange for peace with its neighbors. Instead, over the last 45 years, the Jewish State has filled the occupied territories with hundreds of thousands of Jews from all parts of the globe. The goal of the Zionists hasn't changed in the last hundred years: Jewish rule over all the land between the Mediterranean Sea and Jordan River regardless of the political will of a majority of those who live on that land.


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## georgephillip (Dec 1, 2012)

toastman said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...


By the same methods the US came to occupy the west bank of the Mississippi and Kabul.
Israel's timing wasn't as good primarily because of international legal covenants like the Fourth Geneva Convention which outlawed military conquest for territorial expansion. Are you ducking my question about the five million Arabs ruling over six million Jews?


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## toastman (Dec 1, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...



Your question is stupid, like most of them. It falls under the 'IF' category. What IF this and what IF that. Useless
What IF you are artfulcodger weren't such tools


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## georgephillip (Dec 1, 2012)

toomuchtime_ said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > toomuchtime_ said:
> ...


There are treaties and legal issues which Israel violated in 1967 and continues to ignore today. Namely the Fourth Geneva Convention which prohibits an Occupying Power from deporting or transferring its citizens into the territories. 

Moshe Dayan made it clear forty-five years ago that Israeli settlements in the occupied territories provided Israel with even greater security than the IDF did. Since without Jewish "civilians" living on the West Bank, the world would (rightly) perceive the IDF as an alien force ruling over a foreign people.

As long as Jews continue to violate international law by creating more "facts on the ground" by continuing their settlement building on the West Bank, Arabs have no choice but to refuse "negotiations" with those who are proving their indifference to any final settlement that doesn't guarantee Jewish rule over all the land between the Jordan and the Mediterranean.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 1, 2012)

toastman said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...


You might have to find a real job?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 1, 2012)

toastman said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



The West bank was Palestinian land that was occupied by Jordan. Since Israel cannot win Palestinian land from Jordan, it merely won the occupation.


----------



## AnjelicaT (Dec 2, 2012)

eots said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...



There was a link at the top, you've cut it awwffff


----------



## irosie91 (Dec 2, 2012)

~~~~~long live jewish yathrib~~~~~
     ************************************************


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 2, 2012)

"Dr. T., a medical doctor, is a Palestinian living in Gaza City.  

"He is still reeling from days of aerial bombardment. 

"When I asked about the children in his community he told me his church would soon be making Christmas preparations to lift the childrens spirits.  Looking at his kindly smile and ruddy cheeks, I couldnt help wondering if hed be asked to dress up as 'Baba Noel,' as Santa Claus.  

"I didnt dare ask this question aloud.  'The most recent war was more severe and vigorous than the Operation Cast Lead,' he said slowly, leaning back in his chair and looking into the distance.  'I was more affected this time. The weapons were very strong, destroying everything. *One rocket could completely destroy a building*.'

"The 8-day Israeli offensive in November lasted for fewer days and brought fewer casualties, but it was nonstop and relentless, and everywhere.

'At 1:00 a.m. the bank was bombed, and everyone in the area was awakened from sleep.  Doors were broken and windows were shattered.  There was an agonizing sound, as if we were in a battlefield.'

'The bombing went on every day.  F16 U.S. jets were hitting hard.'

'This is more than anyone can tolerate.  We were unsafe at any place at any time.'

Would the good doctor have been safer in Medina?

Counterpunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 2, 2012)

P F Tinmore,  _et al,_

While this is a very common believe and interpretation, it is not quite accurate.  Some often miss the importance and distinction.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > But Chapter V: THE SECURITY COUNCIL (Articles 24 and 25) do have an impact with respect to the implementation of UNSC Res 242 and 338 _(the companion)_.
> ...


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 2, 2012)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> 
> While this is a very common believe and interpretation, it is not quite accurate.  Some often miss the importance and distinction.
> 
> ...


----------



## irosie91 (Dec 2, 2012)

of course-----Nasser and ---dozens of diplomats who spoke in the UN---during televised  GENERAL ASSEMBLY MEETINGS     -----and were interviewed  on televised programs in the USA        were all   THREATENING TO ANNHILATE THE  "ZIONIST ENTITY"      and   Nasser  EMBARGOED    the  STRAITS OF TIRAN and LINED HIS ARMY UP IN THE SINAI---along with russian military advisors and billions in new tanks and weapons ----ALL TO GIVE THE JOOOOOS  AN EXCUSE TO  "EXPAND"          thanks for mentioning those days-----I was young----just done with final exams  and ABLE TO MEMORIZE    like-----uhm-----a not yet made COMPUTER                  it seems you missed it------it was very interesting----it took my FULL ATTENTION FOR WEEKS-----as I recovered from those final exams-------for the record----I ACED EVERY COURSE THAT SEMESTER------my mind was never before or never since SO SHARP.     I am always amused at how  IDIOTIC    idiots like you paint up  Nasser and his  UAR CLOWNS


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 3, 2012)

artfulcodger,  

Where did you get this nonsense?



artfulcodger said:


> once again Rocky, your ignorance is astounding, but you should probably be aware that this version of eventS stands in stark contradiction to the public statementS of Menachem Begin...Ezer Weitzman and Mosche Dayan---all of whom confirm Israel's role in initiating the 67 land-grab for purposes of expansion...I think these three carry a tad more authority on the matter....LMFAO!!!!!


*(COMMENT)*

Israel entered the conflict in '67 as a defensive measure.  

Certain key points and position were taken as strategic military value.  Yes they admit to that.  In fact, the continued occupation of selected points are still justified for that reason. 

GEN Moshe Dayan has been reported to have expressed some misgiving in the capture of the Golan Heights.

But the conflict would not have been triggered if the various Arab Forces had not been massed for attack.  So there was no intent at the time of the conflict for land acquisition.  

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 3, 2012)

P F Tinmore,  _et al,_

This is a bit disingenuous and subterfuge. 



P F Tinmore said:


> Another point, since Israel is inside Palestine, it cannot claim to be defending itself from the Palestinians. Being in Palestine is an aggressive position.


*(COMMENT)*

Today, the Palestinian call themselves "Palestinians."  Half the terrorist organization in the Region claim to be Palestinian.  And generally speaking, I think it is fairly common enough and understanding what is meant by the "Palestinian Authority" and the "Israelis."   I don't think anyone is going to confuse the two.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 3, 2012)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> 
> This is a bit disingenuous and subterfuge.
> 
> ...



Terrorist is an Israeli propaganda term so it is no surprise that most Palestinian organizations get called this name.

If you take a close look at these groups:

(1)They do not operate outside of Palestine's borders.

(2)They do not target "civilians" (the legal term is "protected persons") as defined by the Fourth Geneva Convention.

They simply do not match the definition of terrorists.

The PA was set up by foreigners to outsource Israel's occupation to a Palestinian face.


----------



## ima (Dec 3, 2012)

*What Kind of State in Israel?*

it's the kind of state that the Pals don't need permission from to advance their cause.


----------



## irosie91 (Dec 3, 2012)

ima said:


> *What Kind of State in Israel?*
> 
> it's the kind of state that the Pals don't need permission from to advance their cause.




what  "cause"???


----------



## ima (Dec 3, 2012)

irosie91 said:


> ima said:
> 
> 
> > *What Kind of State in Israel?*
> ...



Whatever it is.


----------



## irosie91 (Dec 3, 2012)

ima said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > ima said:
> ...



    I knew I would get a specific answer


----------



## docmauser1 (Dec 3, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> _Terrorist is an Israeli propaganda term so it is no surprise that most Palestinian organizations get called this name. If you take a close look at these groups: (1)They do not operate outside of Palestine's borders._


Indeed, they've never had neither borders, nor "palestine", of course.


P F Tinmore said:


> _(2)They do not target "civilians" (the legal term is "protected persons") as defined by the Fourth Geneva Convention._


Indeed, any jew for them is a target, of course.


P F Tinmore said:


> _They simply do not match the definition of terrorists._


Indeed, they're unique terrorists, of course.


----------



## irosie91 (Dec 3, 2012)

docmauser1 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > _Terrorist is an Israeli propaganda term so it is no surprise that most Palestinian organizations get called this name. If you take a close look at these groups: (1)They do not operate outside of Palestine's borders._
> ...




If you examine  tinnie's posts-----you can understand the DEFINITIONS 
of his terms which are actually precisely consistent with the definition of 
terms employed by both Hamas and Al Azhar koranic scholars.   A muslim 
who sneaks into the house of a jew for the purpose of slitting the throats 
of infants ---is NOT A TERRORIST    he is a  MUJAHAD     Mujahad 
roughly means----a PERSON DOING JIHAD     the word  "jihad"  is 
something like  "holy endeavor"    By the some token---a person 
who launches nail bombs ---an instrument which functions 
almost exclusively as a means of killing children and has no other 
"military"  use.  -----ie ---one cannot expect to destroy a weapons 
cache with a nail bomb      or a fortress or a tank  nor it is useful 
in REPELLING an invading force  ----the killing of jewish children 
is also DEFINED AS JIHAD   (ie  holy endeavor)


----------



## ima (Dec 3, 2012)

irosie91 said:


> ima said:
> 
> 
> > irosie91 said:
> ...



The point is that Israel doesn't ask the Pals for permission to do anything, so why should the Pals have to ask for permission from the Axis of Zionism? Why is this even a problem for the Axis? They don't like to give their prisoners rights?


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 3, 2012)

P F Tinmore,  _et al,_

I cannot hardly believe you said this!  I've been wrong all these years?



P F Tinmore said:


> Terrorist is an Israeli propaganda term so it is no surprise that most Palestinian organizations get called this name.
> 
> If you take a close look at these groups:
> 
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

And here, all this time, I thought that a terrorist engages in the systematic use of terror as a means of coercion.

I didn't know that Palestine had official borders.  But I will grant that Palestinian Terrorists generally operate regionally, in the Middle East.

I suppose they are all foreigners, non-Palestine, is that correct?  And they never launched a rocket into Israel, they never blew-up a bus, opened fire on civilian cars, highjacked a plane, or bombed civilians at a border crossing.  

I supposed they didn't bomb the Rosh Ha'ir Restaurant; Bombed of American convoy in the Gaza Strip, or detonated a bomb in the Main Cafeteria at the Hebrew University, Jerusalem, Israel; all of which killed American Citizens.  No, --- of course not.  A Palestinian would never do that.  It was all foreigners. 

Now I suppose that all these organizations don't have a membership of the indigenous population known as "Palestinians."  


Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO)
The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP)
Abu Nidal
HAMAS (Islamic Resistance Movement)
Hizballah (Party of God)
The Palestine Islamic Jihad (PIJ)
Palestine Liberation Front (PLF)
Al-Aqsa Brigade
The Tanzim

And none of these organizations have never received material, economic, or direct support that has been used to conduct operations I've asked about.  (Terrorist Supporter)  

No -- "They do not target "civilians" (the legal term is "protected persons") as defined by the Fourth Geneva Convention."

I'll be sure to tell the families of:  


Daniel Wultz, 16, of Weston, Florida
John Branchizio, 37, US Embassy in Tel Aviv
Mark Parson, 31, US Embassy in Tel Aviv
John Martin Linde, 30, US Embassy in Tel Aviv
David Applebaum, 51, Cleveland, Ohio 
Nava Applebaum, 20, Cleveland, Ohio
Goldie Taubenfeld, 43, New Square, New York
Shmuel Taubenfeld, 3 months, New Square, New York
Mordechai Reinitz, 49, Monsey, New York 
Yitzhak Reinitz, 9, Monsey, New York
Tehilla Nathanson, 3, Monsey, New York
etc
etc
etc

OK, I believe you!  

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## toastman (Dec 3, 2012)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> 
> I cannot hardly believe you said this!  I've been wrong all these years?
> 
> ...



I guess to the Nazis of this board, this isnt terrorism

List of Palestinian suicide attacks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Those are only the suicide attacks, they dont include the throat slitting or gunfire at CLOSE RANGE


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 3, 2012)

"On June 8, 1967 while patrolling in international waters[2] in the Eastern Mediterranean Sea, USS Liberty (AGTR-5) was savagely attacked without warning or justification by air and naval forces of the state of Israel.[3]

"Of a crew of 294 officers and men[4] (including three civilians)[5], the ship suffered thirty four (34) killed in action and one hundred seventy four (174) wounded in action.[6] The ship itself, a Forty Million ($40,000,000) Dollar state of the art signals intelligence (SIGINT) platform, was so badly damaged that it never sailed on an operational mission again and was sold in 1970 for $101,666.66 as scrap[7] .

"Israel acknowledged the following facts without qualification:

"USS Liberty was an American ship, hence a neutral vis-à-vis the June 1967 war between Israel and its Arab neighbors.[8]
USS Liberty remained in international waters at all times on June 8, 1967[9] .
The attacking Israeli forces never made a positive identification of the nationality of USS Liberty before unleashing deadly force in their attack on the ship."

USS Liberty Memorial: Summary of Events


----------



## Hossfly (Dec 3, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> "On June 8, 1967 while patrolling in international waters[2] in the Eastern Mediterranean Sea, USS Liberty (AGTR-5) was savagely attacked without warning or justification by air and naval forces of the state of Israel.[3]
> 
> "Of a crew of 294 officers and men[4] (including three civilians)[5], the ship suffered thirty four (34) killed in action and one hundred seventy four (174) wounded in action.[6] The ship itself, a Forty Million ($40,000,000) Dollar state of the art signals intelligence (SIGINT) platform, was so badly damaged that it never sailed on an operational mission again and was sold in 1970 for $101,666.66 as scrap[7] .
> 
> ...


No dice, George.


----------



## Hossfly (Dec 3, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> "On June 8, 1967 while patrolling in international waters[2] in the Eastern Mediterranean Sea, USS Liberty (AGTR-5) was savagely attacked without warning or justification by air and naval forces of the state of Israel.[3]
> 
> "Of a crew of 294 officers and men[4] (including three civilians)[5], the ship suffered thirty four (34) killed in action and one hundred seventy four (174) wounded in action.[6] The ship itself, a Forty Million ($40,000,000) Dollar state of the art signals intelligence (SIGINT) platform, was so badly damaged that it never sailed on an operational mission again and was sold in 1970 for $101,666.66 as scrap[7] .
> 
> ...


When all else fails, the anti-Semites like Georgie Boy pull up the Liberty incident.  If all the readers were being paid each time the Liberty incident was dragged up, we would all be very wealthy.  What Georgie Boy doesn't realize is that there are many military men, even those who were in the service at the time of the Liberty incident, who think it was just an accident that happened in the fog of war and that the Liberty was in the wrong place at the wrong time.  Of course, Georgie Boy never served in the military since he hates the U.S. military in the first place so he would not know of these accidents which happen many times.  By the way, Georgie Boy, do you happen to be a Palestinian yourself?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 4, 2012)

None of those alleged "military men" you reference include the 260 survivors of Israel's deliberate assault on _Liberty_, you know, the actual eye witnesses to the crime...

"Survivors report that the torpedo boat crews swept the decks of USS Liberty with continuous machine gun fire, targeting communications equipment and any crewmembers who ventured above decks.[22]

"Damage control firefighters, who had already risked their lives merely by appearing on deck, had to abandon their efforts because their fire hoses had been shredded by machine gun fire.[23]

"Survivors also report that the *torpedo boat crews fired on the inflated life boats* launched by the crew after the captain gave the order 'prepare to abandon ship.'[24] This order had to be rescinded because the crew was unable to stand on the main deck without being fired upon *and the life rafts were destroyed as they were launched*."

USS Liberty Memorial: Summary of Events


----------



## irosie91 (Dec 4, 2012)

I have been involved in the INVESTIGATION of many   INJURIES   
  including military injuries.      Injured persons virtually always 
  BLAME SOMEONE      The sense of that boys on the SS Liberty 
  have that they were being KNOWINGLY ATTACKED ----as a US 
  ship is not at all surprising.    Military people understand this 
  phenomenon


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 4, 2012)

irosie91 said:


> I have been involved in the INVESTIGATION of many   INJURIES
> including military injuries.      Injured persons virtually always
> BLAME SOMEONE      The sense of that boys on the SS Liberty
> have that they were being KNOWINGLY ATTACKED ----as a US
> ...


*"After more than two hours of unremitting assault*, the Israelis finally halted their attack. One of the torpedo boats approached the Liberty. This same torpedo boat crew had been circling the ship, machine-gunning anyone who stuck his head above decks, as well as the lifeboats the crew had put over the side.

"What had changed? *The Israeli government knew that US aircraft carriers had just launched aircraft to come to Liberty's aid and the attack was quickly called off*. 

"The Israeli government called the US Embassy and said that they had made a 'mistake.'

"A torpedo boat officer asked in English over a bullhorn: 'Do you need any help?'

"The wounded commander of the Liberty, Captain William McGonagle, instructed the quartermaster to respond emphatically: *"Fuck you*.'"

*AND YOURS!*

USS Liberty Memorial: Quotes Main Page


----------



## irosie91 (Dec 4, 2012)

try again   georgie-----the assault on the  SS Liberty    was more in the vicinity of   1/2 hour         during my time in active duty-----there were lots of accidental military deaths---
I served in peace time.      During my son's tour-----several----not in war-----domestic things,   My father who was a petty officer during  world war II-----never stopped blaming himself for 
a kid who fell overboard-----he had given a responsibility to another man who he later decided 
was simply not UP TO THE TASK of checking a KNOT


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 4, 2012)

irosie91 said:


> try again   georgie-----the assault on the  SS Liberty    was more in the vicinity of   1/2 hour         during my time in active duty-----there were lots of accidental military deaths---
> I served in peace time.      During my son's tour-----several----not in war-----domestic things,   My father who was a petty officer during  world war II-----never stopped blaming himself for
> a kid who fell overboard-----he had given a responsibility to another man who he later decided
> was simply not UP TO THE TASK of checking a KNOT


*One of your own, rosie:*

"'They must understand that a mistake was made here,' Spector said. 'The
fool is one who wanders about in the dark in dangerous places, so they
should not come with any complaints.'


Brig Gen. Yiftah Spector, Israeli Air Force, in an interview with the Jerusalem Post."

*The only mistake was trusting an "ally" like Spector and Israel.*

USS Liberty Memorial: Quotes Main Page


----------



## irosie91 (Dec 4, 2012)

Spector was right------wandering around in an arena of war without making sure ------the OTHER SIDE  knows you are not the enemy-----is really stupid.

An arena of war is not a spectator sport  

In fact even wandering around in an arena of war ----after INFORMING 
the players -----is very dangerous.      ----an ARENA OF WAR is VERY  
dangerous to EVERYONE PRESENT------the number of deaths by 
FRIENDLY FIRE is startling -----I heard figures ----from this and that 
person in the NAVY ---that were scary------and was horrified by a 
few  "incidents" that did come to my attention


----------



## Hossfly (Dec 4, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > try again   georgie-----the assault on the  SS Liberty    was more in the vicinity of   1/2 hour         during my time in active duty-----there were lots of accidental military deaths---
> ...


The Muslims can kill thousands in a short period, and Georgie Boy sits back and pulls up the Liberty incident for the umpteenth time.   Does anyone think that Georgie would bring up the fact that we give a lot of money to Pakistan, and in turn many in the Pakistani Army give intelligence to the Taliban so that they can kill our soldiers.  Then again Georgie Boy doesn't care how many American soldiers are killed because he hates our American military.  He doesn't even care about anyone killed on the Liberty, but just uses the incident because Israel was involved.  I guess Georgie Boy, living in Los Angeles, is too busy posting his same old stuff on message boards that he can't drive north of his home to the Naval Bases in Ventura county and ask the retired military men going in to do their shopping what they think about the Liberty incident.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 4, 2012)

irosie91 said:


> Spector was right------wandering around in an arena of war without making sure ------the OTHER SIDE  knows you are not the enemy-----is really stupid.
> 
> An arena of war is not a spectator sport
> 
> ...


"General Spector was the Israeli pilot who launched the attack, in clear *violation of international law,* on the unarmed USS Liberty sailing in *international waters*.

"Shamelessly, in that same interview, the reporter wrote of him:

"'He added *he remains baffled* that the conspiracy theories live on that
Israel deliberately attacked the US intelligence ship. He suggested it
might be due to anti-Semitism, or anti-Israeli sentiments' [on the part of
the Liberty crewmembers he tried to kill]."

I'm baffled how shit like Spector (and you) bite the hand that feeds you without noticing that's a very dangerous practice most steaming piles learn to avoid.
Hopefully Spector and you reap what you sow.

USS Liberty Memorial: Quotes Main Page


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 4, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > irosie91 said:
> ...


Since I never perceived the slightest threat to the US homeland or its legitimate national interest from Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan , and Pakistan COMBINED, I find it revealing how those who "choose" to participate in the killing of millions of innocent human beings have few qualms about the "chosen" people killing Americans who weren't engaged in war crimes.

What made you take part in the US invasion and occupation of South Vietnam, Hossie?
The same pathic lies that prop up the Jewish State?


----------



## proudveteran06 (Dec 4, 2012)

RoccoR said:


> artfulcodger,
> 
> Where did you get this nonsense?
> 
> ...



 THIS IS THE REASON FOR THE 1967 WAR THAT THE ARABS STARTED.  RERGARDING THE GOLAN HEIGHTS SYRIA WAS USING IT AS AN ADVANTAGE POINT TO SHOOT DOWN AT ISRAELIS.  SOMETHING THE PRO- PALESTINIANS WON'T ADMIT TO.  DE- NIAL IS NOT THE RIVER   


Between 1966 and 1967 Israels borders saw repeated Arab terrorist attacks and Syrian military activity.[32] On May 11, UN Secretary General U Thant leveled criticism at Syria for its sponsorship of Palestinian terrorism, denouncing those attacks as "deplorable," "insidious" and "menaces to peace."[33]

During 1965-7, Israel's armed forces staged numerous provocations along the Israeli-Syrian border area.[34] This escalation led the Syrians and the Soviets to believe Israel was planning to overthrow the Syrian regime using military force.[34] On April 7, 1967, a serious incident broke out between Israel and Syria over a cultivation problem within the demilitarized zone. Israel took military action against Syria, and eventually both sides employed artillery, tanks, and mortars.[35] During this clash Israeli airstrikes were launched a few miles from Damascus. Israel bombed both Syrian border villages, and Syrian military targets, and had refused a cease-fire proposal by the Chairman of Mixed Armistice Commission. After several hours the United Nations Truce Supervision Organization managed to arrange a cease-fire. Following this confrontation Arab governments pledged their support to Syria, but also complained that the Jordanian air force had done nothing to help Syrian planes even when they were shot down in Jordanian airspace.[36]

In May 1967, Israeli officials began to publicly threaten military action against Syria if Syria did not stop Palestinian guerrillas from crossing the border into Israel.[37] Following that, Nasser received false intelligence reports from the Soviet Union that an Israeli attack on Syria was imminent.[38][39][40][41][42] Egyptian intelligence later confirmed that the Soviet reports of Israeli force concentrations were in fact groundless,[43][44][45] but Nasser had by then already started his buildup and he feared that since a large portion of his army was already in the Sinai, a sudden callback of those forces would result in humiliation at a time when Nasser could ill afford being humiliated.[46] On May 19, U Thant called statements attributed to Israeli leaders "so threatening as to be particularly inflammatory in the sense that they could only heighten emotions and thereby increase tensions on the other side of the lines".[47] Nasser then misled the Egyptian people by perpetuating the falsehood claiming in an address on the anniversary of the Egyptian revolution, that the IDF was concentrating forces "on Syria's doorstep."[48] Israel's threats to invade Syria appeared serious to Arab leaders, however,[49][50][51] and foreign observers suspected that an Israeli strike on Syria was imminent.[52] According to Michael Oren, Nasser disregarded the counsel of his own intelligence[53] and began massing his troops in the Sinai Peninsula on Israel's border (May 16), expelled the UNEF force from Gaza and Sinai (May 19), and took up UNEF positions at Sharm el-Sheikh, overlooking the Straits of Tiran.[54][55] According to Moshe Shemesh, as Egypt and Syria shared a mutual defence pact, Nasser responded to the Israeli threats by beginning to concentrate his troops in the Sinai Peninsula according to the "Qahir" (Conqueror) defence plan. He also decided to prepare the feda'iyyun for carrying out the "Fahd 2 (Leopard) Plan" [murderous attacks] inside Israel and to coordinate military operations with Syria.[56]

The Straits of Tiran was regarded by the Western Powers and Israel as an international waterway[32][57][58] but its legal status was the subject of international controversy.[59] The Arabs believed that they had the right to regulate passage of ships while Israel, with the support of other major world powers, countered that the Arab claims were legally not supportable.[60] In 1967 Israel reiterated declarations made in 1957 that any closure of the Straits would be considered an act of war, or a justification for war.[61][62] On May 22 Nasser declared the Straits closed to Israeli shipping.[32][63] Nasser stated he was open to referring the closure to the International Court of Justice to determine its legality, but this option was rejected by Israel.[64][65] Egyptian propaganda attacked Israel,[66] and on May 27, Nasser stated "Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight."[67]

On May 30, Jordan and Egypt signed a defense pact. The following day, at Jordan's invitation, the Iraqi army began deploying troops and armored units in Jordan.[68] They were later reinforced by an Egyptian contingent.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 4, 2012)

None of which would have occurred if 650,000 Jews hadn't inflicted a Jewish State on 1.2 million Arab citizens of Mandate Palestine in 1948. The Six Day War should more properly be remembered as the "Liberation of Judea and Samaria," although its Final Solution remains in doubt.


----------



## proudveteran06 (Dec 4, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> None of which would have occurred if 650,000 Jews hadn't inflicted a Jewish State on 1.2 million Arab citizens of Mandate Palestine in 1948. The Six Day War should more properly be remembered as the "Liberation of Judea and Samaria," although its Final Solution remains in doubt.





  Translation;  Not only did Israel not have the right to be created but it should be wiped off the map; even today.  Which is why there can never be " peace".  Israel will never go back to Borders that COULD have been the " Palestinian State" prior to 1967, be denied access to E. Jerusalem; Something that Jordan was OBLIGATED to do but of course didn't, or allow " Right of Return".  The latter would wipe Israel off the map.  That is not going to happen; Deal with it.

 Ask ANY Pro- Palestinian what exactly they are doing to " negotiate" and there will be no answer.  All they have are big mouths


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 4, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > None of which would have occurred if 650,000 Jews hadn't inflicted a Jewish State on 1.2 million Arab citizens of Mandate Palestine in 1948. The Six Day War should more properly be remembered as the "Liberation of Judea and Samaria," although its Final Solution remains in doubt.
> ...


While all you have to offer is your little brain.

Israel was conceived as an apartheid state in which Jews would rule over non-Jews.
The fiction of a Democratic Israel always depended upon a Jewish majority.
There are currently a million more non-Jews living between the Mediterranean Sea and Jordan River than there are Jews.

Ask any pro-racist tool to translate that math.


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 4, 2012)

irosie91,  _et al,_

There is a mistake in the understanding of the even, politically.



irosie91 said:


> I have been involved in the INVESTIGATION of many   INJURIES
> including military injuries.      Injured persons virtually always
> BLAME SOMEONE      The sense of that boys on the SS Liberty
> have that they were being KNOWINGLY ATTACKED ----as a US
> ...



*(COMMENT)*

The purpose of the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty was to make it look like the Egyptians did it and draw the US into the conflict.  It was a perfect plan, except the USS Liberty did not sink.  The second assault was to finish the job, except the witnesses, the crew of the USS Liberty, had already contacted the fleet and exposed the Israelis as the true attackers.

There was no mistake by the Israelis in the identification of the ship.  They knew very well the identity of the ship.  They had it completely encircled and was observing it from every aspect angle, and intercepted the HF/VHF radio traffic with the fleet.  It took them a while to set-up their cover story.

While it shows the character and integrity of the Israeli IDF and Government _(morally, ethically, and politically)_ and is merely one of many reasons to double check everything the Israelis _(honesty, integrity, validity)_ give us, there are a number of reasons that are not in the public domain that neither the US or Israel really want exposed.  The IDF believed the USS Liberty was there to track a specific asset, while appearing to provide general tactical intelligence on the progress of the war.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 4, 2012)

Was the plan hatched in Tel-Aviv or DC?


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Dec 4, 2012)

RoccoR said:


> irosie91,  _et al,_
> 
> There is a mistake in the understanding of the even, politically.
> 
> ...



This is one of the most bizarre allegations I have seen to date.  What makes you think the Israelis wanted the US in the war when they had already knocked out the Egyptian air force in the first hours of the war and thus rendered their armor and infantry nearly useless?  The war had already been won and the Israelis were only interested in limiting their own losses when the attack took place.


----------



## Hossfly (Dec 4, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...


So tell us, Georgie Boy, how did you escape the draft since you claim you were born in 1947?  Did you run up to Canada and hide out for a period of time, and then when it was safe you came back here and joined something like Louie Farrakhan's group which taught you to bash Israel while embracing the terrorists who want to take over the world for Islam?  Or since there are many Muslims who are taught to hate the Jews and who emigrated to the U.S., were you one of these but prefer to claim that you were born here?  After all on the Internet a person can claim whatever he wants to.    When you can drag yourself away from the message board, Georgie Boy, do you attend that big Mosque in Los Angeles which was built with money given by a Saudi Prince?


----------



## toastman (Dec 4, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



Georgie buy is a huge liar, i wouldnt listen to what he says


----------



## proudveteran06 (Dec 4, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...




All you have to offer is your little brain and a Big Mouth.  Israel ( Where a Jewish Majority) and Non- Jews live is " Apartheid" but a NJA " Palestinian State" isn't?   How do you feel about other Arab States where Jews aren't allowed?   Of course you do not see anything wrong with that; You racist bigot.   

Still can't tell me what the Palestinians are doing to " negotiate".  That's because you can't.   All you can offer is your Anti- Israel, Pro- Palestinian bigoted, racist Big Mouth

WHICH IS WHY THERE WILL NEVER BE A " PALESTINIAN STATE"


----------



## ima (Dec 5, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...


So your excuse for Israel to be an apartheid state is because the arabs do it? Nice.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 5, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...



The state of Palestine is recognized by the UN. This did not create a state. It recognized an existing state.

How long has Palestine existed as a state?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 5, 2012)

toomuchtime_ said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > irosie91,  _et al,_
> ...


*Maybe their G-d told them to do it?*

There's no doubt they deliberately killed 34 Americans in international waters.

Any possible motives or accomplices will require a full investigation by the US Congress to determine.


----------



## irosie91 (Dec 6, 2012)

the Navy completed an investigation.    Military accidents are very common in 
peace time and   VERY VERY COMMON during war


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 7, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...


One thing Palestinians are not doing today is building settlements in Israel.
"Negotiations" are impossible with those who refuse to stop stealing land and water during actual "negotiations." Can you wrap your pathic "mind" around that?

NJA means there will be no IDF snipers killing Arab children for sport when Palestine comes into existence.

If Israel is such an exalted place, why aren't you living there?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 7, 2012)

irosie91 said:


> the Navy completed an investigation.    Military accidents are very common in
> peace time and   VERY VERY COMMON during war


The Navy completed its "investigation" in ten days without hearing any testimony from the IDF.
Liberty officers were not allowed to testify about the "accidental" machine gunning of life rafts.
What does that tell you about "whitewash?"


----------



## ima (Dec 7, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...



...because a lot of christians support Israel because they need armageddon in the ME for Jesus to come back and save them.


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## georgephillip (Dec 7, 2012)

I sometimes wonder if slavery could have been institutionalized without devout Jews and Christians?


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## Hossfly (Dec 7, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...


Are you posting from Gaza where your heart is?


----------



## ima (Dec 7, 2012)

*What Kind of State in Israel?*

It's the kind of state that can't defeat their enemies.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 7, 2012)

ima said:


> *What Kind of State in Israel?*
> 
> It's the kind of state that can't defeat their enemies.



Really.

Israel's military has been pounding on Palestinian civilians for over 60 years and have not won anything yet.


----------



## irosie91 (Dec 7, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> ima said:
> 
> 
> > *What Kind of State in Israel?*
> ...





The sluts and dogs of mecca have been murdering jews for 1400 years and are still 
mired in their own filth and covered with the sores of impetigo -----AND  remain, 
largely,   the SAME ILLITERATE PIGS  they were back then


----------



## ima (Dec 7, 2012)

irosie91 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > ima said:
> ...



Maybe, but they have most of our money.


----------



## toomuchtime_ (Dec 7, 2012)

I have it on good authority that Israel is a light unto the nations.



> The term originated from verses in the Book of Isaiah:
> 
> "Yea, He saith, 'It is too light a thing for you to be My servant, to establish the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the scions of Israel, and I shall submit you as a light unto the nations, to be My salvation until the end of the earth' (Isaiah, 49:6)
> 
> ...



Light Unto the Nations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Clearly, the Arabs who set the Arab Spring in motion aspired to the same kind of enlightened, progressive governments in their countries that all the citizens of Israel now enjoy, and when more of Israel's neighbors come to see and appreciate this light, peace will come to this region.


----------



## irosie91 (Dec 7, 2012)

ima said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



yes----there was oil under their unwashed asses -----now they have both money and impetigo


----------



## docmauser1 (Dec 7, 2012)

ima said:


> _What Kind of State in Israel? It's the kind of state that can't defeat their enemies._


Indeed, stomping international community pet cuties out is like shooting endangered species up, of course.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 7, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...


"RAFAH, Gaza Strip &#8212; The image of Hamas&#8217; long-exiled chief triumphantly walking around the Gaza Strip, flashing victory signs beside Islamic militant leaders Friday, illustrates how the group&#8217;s *defiance of Israel* is forcing a change in Palestinian politics.

"Buoyed by the rise of fellow Islamists in Egypt, Hamas chief Khaled Mashaal and his allies are confronting Israel with the specter of a change in the balance of power between the two rival Palestinian factions &#8212; Hamas and the Western-backed Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas&#8217; Fatah."

Flashing victory signs, exiled Hamas chief tours Gaza for first time; Israel looks other way - The Washington Post

*Is your heart in peace or plunder, Hossie?*


----------



## Hossfly (Dec 7, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...


Well my heart certainly isn't with you and your Muslim buddies in Gaza who think it is their duty to kill Jews for Allah.  Nor is my heart where I want to kill people, whomever they are (Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims of different sects) just because of their religious differences.  By the way, Georgie, just in case you are out of work and looking for a new job............
Pakistani Taliban recruit via Facebook | News.com.au


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## georgephillip (Dec 7, 2012)

How many civilians in your neighborhood have Pakistani Muslims killed?

" US drone strike in Shin Warsak, South Waziristan on December 1 2012 marked the 300th drone strike in Pakistan of Barack Obama&#8217;s presidency, according to Bureau research.

"The attack was the second since President Obama&#8217;s re-election on November 6. It reportedly killed Abdul Rehman al-Zaman Yemeni, described as an al Qaeda commander, along with up to three others.

"Although the pace of strikes has slowed considerably this year, *CIA attacks have struck Pakistan&#8217;s tribal areas on average once every five days during Obama&#8217;s first term* &#8211; six times more than under George W Bush." 

The Reaper Presidency: Obama

What would you guess is each missile's profit margin?


----------



## Hossfly (Dec 7, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> How many civilians in your neighborhood have Pakistani Muslims killed?
> 
> " US drone strike in Shin Warsak, South Waziristan on December 1 2012 marked the 300th drone strike in Pakistan of Barack Obama&#8217;s presidency, according to Bureau research.
> 
> ...


As long as the missles send terrorist leaders to the Happy Hunting Ground, the cost is within budget.


----------



## Hossfly (Dec 7, 2012)

Notice that Georgie Boy doesn't mention how many innocent people the Pakistanis have murdered.  Nor does he mention the Pakistani soldiers who give intelligence to the Taliban who in turn murder our military.   Evidently he has no problem with that.  Remember, Georgie, you are always free to leave this country for another country where you will feel more comfortable.  Then again, you could also take yourself to the Mojave Desert and be a martyr.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 7, 2012)

The Taliban isn't murdering "our military" in the US, are they?
If we weren't occupying another country in violation of international law, "our military" would not be getting killed by Muslims.
Maybe you should sign up for another tour, or two?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 7, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > How many civilians in your neighborhood have Pakistani Muslims killed?
> ...


What's your definition of "terrorist?"


----------



## irosie91 (Dec 7, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> The Taliban isn't murdering "our military" in the US, are they?
> If we weren't occupying another country in violation of international law, "our military" would not be getting killed by Muslims.
> Maybe you should sign up for another tour, or two?




The taliban are islamicists who advocate the murder of non muslims----the same kind of people who join the taliban come to the US hoping to blow up  TIMES SQUARE----on a saturday nite          your concept of isolationism is really cute       I assure you---it does not work----in fact isolationism was the major theme of the  PRO HITLER  propaganda of the mid-1930s  -----both in england and in the USA       and lots of disgusting people supported the idea


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 7, 2012)

irosie91,  georgephillip,  _et al,_

Don't get side tracked, mixing apples and oranges.



irosie91 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > The Taliban isn't murdering "our military" in the US, are they?
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

The Israeli/Palestinian issue is all about the Palestinian seeing themselves as the (virtual) victims of displacement, after the British Mandate, under a non-Islamic Government (Israel).  The Palestinians see themselves as an indigenous population which have been displaced under a self proclaimed Jewish Regime.

The Taliban see themselves as a government in exile, displaced by a US Regime Change effort.  The Taliban see themselves as an indigenous resistance force - fighting against the invasion and occupation, by foreign invaders, to reestablish their government.

These are two completely different situations, mutually exclusive of each other, with virtually nothing in common.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## irosie91 (Dec 7, 2012)

RoccoR said:


> irosie91,  georgephillip,  _et al,_
> 
> Don't get side tracked, mixing apples and oranges.
> 
> ...





no  R.    wrong---I got my education about the islamic mindset----from muslims from MANY MANY PARTS OF THE WORLD        The  "palestinians"  see themselves as  THE OWNERS OF MUSLIM LAND  -----the entire middle east       They see jews as  NON OWNERS 
no matter from where those jews originated.       even those who lived in palestine far longer than any  "MUSLIM ARAB"  did      The story about  "palestinians"  being ABORIGINALS-----even they do not buy it.     It is just propaganda they are willing to USE.
becasue it helps JUSTIFY THE ISLAMIC CLAIM TO PALESTINE.   Always remember---the "palestinian" thing is not----a case of  "WE WERE HERE FIRST"    it is a case of ---MUHUMMAD FLEW IN HERE ON HIS FLYING HORSE ---and then Sala'adin came---so NOW 
now it is MUSLIM LAND FOREVER------forget about that "PHILISTINE"  thing---no one 
believes it


as to the Taliban----they are  PAKISTANIS  intent on creating  a  SHARIAH PARADISE out 
of   Afghanistan       strict shariah law-----that is their goal-----they do not even consider 
themselves   AFGHANI   and,   indeed they are not------they do not even speak the same
language that the  AFGHANIS  speak-----the taliban largely speak URDU---the Afghanis 
speak  PASHTUN which contains more  FARSI than does Urdu        How do I know?    I encountered their friends and relatives right here in the USA       I am short and pakistanis find me a very easy conversationalist


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 7, 2012)

irosie91,  _et al,_

Again, apples and oranges.



irosie91 said:


> no  R.    wrong---I got my education about the islamic mindset----from muslims from MANY MANY PARTS OF THE WORLD        The  "palestinians"  see themselves as  THE OWNERS OF MUSLIM LAND  -----the entire middle east       They see jews as  NON OWNERS
> no matter from where those jews originated.       even those who lived in palestine far longer than any  "MUSLIM ARAB"  did      The story about  "palestinians"  being ABORIGINALS-----even they do not buy it.     It is just propaganda they are willing to USE.
> becasue it helps JUSTIFY THE ISLAMIC CLAIM TO PALESTINE.   Always remember---the "palestinian" thing is not----a case of  "WE WERE HERE FIRST"    it is a case of ---MUHUMMAD FLEW IN HERE ON HIS FLYING HORSE ---and then Sala'adin came---so NOW
> now it is MUSLIM LAND FOREVER------forget about that "PHILISTINE"  thing---no one
> believes it


*(COMMENT)*

Who "owns" the land has nothing what so ever to do with the "national sovereignty" issue _(what country it is)_.   There are many parcels of land that have continuous family ownership but under different government administrations changed over time _(Ottoman Empire, British Mandate, Israel)_.  A government doesn't "own" a country _(individuals own property)_, it leads the country.  In the case of the Palestinian/Arab _(outside Israel or other sovereignties)_ Palestinian leadership is in chaos, with no real single voice.

These are two different causes of action. 


Governmental/nationalistic sovereignty
Property Ownership



irosie91 said:


> as to the Taliban----they are  PAKISTANIS  intent on creating  a  SHARIAH PARADISE out
> of   Afghanistan       strict shariah law-----that is their goal-----they do not even consider
> themselves   AFGHANI   and,   indeed they are not------they do not even speak the same
> language that the  AFGHANIS  speak-----the taliban largely speak URDU---the Afghanis
> speak  PASHTUN which contains more  FARSI than does Urdu        How do I know?    I encountered their friends and relatives right here in the USA       I am short and pakistanis find me a very easy conversationalist


*(COMMENT)*

There are two different factions of Taliban; they are tribal, not nationalist (Afghanistan or Pakistan).

In Afghanistan, they were a combination of Mujahadeen and Pashtun tribesmen who came together to fight against the Soviet invasion in the 1980s.  While it is true that there is a very strong connection between Pashtun tribesmen and the Madrassas _(a Pakistani religious schools system)_, the fighters in Afghanistan began to split.  


Afghan Taliban leadership  also know as the Quetta Shura has Mullah Muhammad Omar as The Afghan Talibans Supreme Leader.  Mullah Muhammad Omar is the leader of the Afghan Government in Exile, with the current objective  to regain control of Afghanistan after the American Regime Change.


The Pakistan Taliban, currently under the command of Hakimullah Mehsud, is better known as the Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP).   Most recently, there seems to be a struggle between Mehsud and Wali-ur-Rehman for leadership, with the informed TTP contacts betting that Wali-ur-Rehman will replace Hakimullah Mehsud.  The current objective of the TTP is to topple the US influenced government in Pakistan.

The two Taliban organizations have a common origin, but have now begun to carve-out two separate strongholds under different leaderships.

*(AGAIN)*

It is my intention to suggest that mixing or trying to make some association between the Arab-Israeli situation and the US/Coalition-Afghan/Pakistan situation is a mistake.  They have completely different dynamics.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## docmauser1 (Dec 8, 2012)

RoccoR said:


> _The Israeli/Palestinian issue is all about the Palestinian seeing themselves as the (virtual) victims of displacement, after the British Mandate, under a non-Islamic Government (Israel)._


Philistines and dictionaries don't mix, of course.


RoccoR said:


> _The Palestinians see themselves as an indigenous population which have been displaced under a self proclaimed Jewish Regime._


It's part of the philistine occupation, of course, seeing things.


----------



## irosie91 (Dec 8, 2012)

There is a very important  COMMONALITY----between the TALIBAN  and the  ARABIST MOVEMENT  into which the  'palestinians'  have been inserted      Both are  manifestations of   "ISLAMIC IMPERIALISM"  ----<<<< see?    simple           that being the case both are bloody and dangerous to the civilized world


----------



## eots (Dec 8, 2012)




----------



## ima (Dec 8, 2012)

irosie91 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > The Taliban isn't murdering "our military" in the US, are they?
> ...



9/11 was a direct cause of our involvement and siding with Israel.


----------



## irosie91 (Dec 8, 2012)

ima said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...



Ima's comment is VERY VERY remeniscent of the pro Adolf propaganda of
the mid to late  `1930s    which centered on the idea that the world 
would have no problem with  Adolf if it simply let him have the Sudenten-
land  and did whatever he wished with HIS JEWS.    In fact the prominent 
LEADER  who spoke to millions via radio ---Father Charles Coughlin   so stated 
vehemently  to his millions of avid listeners---in something like  1938---
  somethings never change-------shit always stinks


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 8, 2012)

irosie91,  _et al,_

There (actually) may be more truth to this than you may think.  And this connection may explain why, in may facets, the various parties to conflict, cannot come to any common ground or resolution.

Genetically:

MAO-A Gene
VMAT-2 Gene



irosie91 said:


> There is a very important  COMMONALITY----between the TALIBAN  and the  ARABIST MOVEMENT  into which the  'palestinians'  have been inserted      Both are  manifestations of   "ISLAMIC IMPERIALISM"  ----<<<< see?    simple           that being the case both are bloody and dangerous to the civilized world


*(COMMENT)*

This is a matter of perspective.  It is just as important that we be able to see ourselves through their eyes, as well as, we can see ourselves in the mirror.

There is very little question that we see Islamic Fanaticism as barbaric, cruel and inhuman - with little or no potential for cultural advancement; or corrupting the human genome, and poisoning the species as a whole.  But that is a one was single view.  They may hold a similar view of us.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## docmauser1 (Dec 8, 2012)

RoccoR said:


> _This is a matter of perspective.  It is just as important that we be able to see ourselves through their eyes, as well as, we can see ourselves in the mirror. There is very little question that we see Islamic Fanaticism as barbaric, cruel and inhuman - with little or no potential for cultural advancement; or corrupting the human genome, and poisoning the species as a whole.  But that is a one was single view.  They may hold a similar view of us._


Same old, same old, multiculty, diversity, blahblah.


----------



## SAYIT (Dec 8, 2012)

RoccoR said:


> irosie91,  _et al,_
> 
> There (actually) may be more truth to this than you may think.  And this connection may explain why, in may facets, the various parties to conflict, cannot come to any common ground or resolution.
> 
> ...



You seem like someone who would appreciate Mark Lilla's essay. It's a bit long but worth the time. I've posted a link and his conclusion:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/19/magazine/19Religion-t.html?scp=5&sq=the+politics+of+god&st=nyt

"In the end, though, what happens on the opposite shore will not be up to us. We have little reason to expect societies in the grip of a powerful political theology to follow our unusual path, which was opened up by a unique crisis within Christian civilization. This does not mean that those societies necessarily lack the wherewithal to create a decent and workable political order; it does mean that they will have to find the theological resources within their own traditions to make it happen.

Our challenge is different. We have made a choice that is at once simpler and harder: we have chosen to limit our politics to protecting individuals from the worst harms they can inflict on one another, to securing fundamental liberties and providing for their basic welfare, while leaving their spiritual destinies in their own hands. We have wagered that it is wiser to beware the forces unleashed by the Bibles messianic promise than to try exploiting them for the public good. We have chosen to keep our politics unilluminated by divine revelation. All we have is our own lucidity, which we must train on a world where faith still inflames the minds of men."


----------



## Roudy (Dec 8, 2012)

ima said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...


Nope. Osama hardly mentioned Israel in his initial list of complaints. American presence in Saudi Arabia, support of the Saudi royals, etc. were the big issues. Israel was added as an afterthought after the blame-America Muslims and liberals in the West kept diverting to it. True story.


----------



## irosie91 (Dec 8, 2012)

muslims have comitted genocides in the HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS in the course of their 1400 year history     
Is it not amazing that they have done so  ALL BECAUSE of 
ISRAEL?         over 100 million in the Indian subcontinent 
alone----all because of Israel----and  more than 500 years ago.
Khartoum murdered two million christians----all because of 
Israel       and then there was Biafra and Armenia 

     for those who do not know----the real reason Iranians hate 
arabs is-----well arabs murdered millions of Iranians      don't  tell anyone ------they did it for  ALLAH -----who seems to now 
be enjoying an enhanced reputation amongst the survivors


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 8, 2012)

Roudy, ima, irosie91, _et al,_

Well, actually it probably would be more correct to say, that the "cause" is a compilation of all these things and more.



Roudy said:


> ima said:
> 
> 
> > irosie91 said:
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

The trouble has been brewing and building for decades.  Our portion of the entire compilation is called a policy of US intervention and political-military hegemonist policies.

Much of the outside world views the US as a Police Type - Interventionist country; casting itself as above the law and the fray, that its position is the only correct position.  Yes, they do not see the US as an honest broker for peace, or acting than other than its own best interest.  For that reason the US is seen as untrustworthy, detrimental the the furtherance of peace; regional or otherwise.  

These _(less than flattering)_ views are are only further aggravated by the fanatical application of religious ferver.  The 911 campaign and the focus of al-Qaeda, is only one aspect of a flashpoint by disaffected followers of cult like developers.  Clearly, theirs is only one view, and America is only one contributor to the compilation of causes.  

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 8, 2012)

RoccoR said:


> irosie91,  georgephillip,  _et al,_
> 
> Don't get side tracked, mixing apples and oranges.
> 
> ...


One possible corporate commonality between the occupation of Afghanistan and Palestine might be the amount of revenue each conflict generates for US "defense" contractors. Perhaps a 100% "sin tax" applied to all war related revenues generated after the first innocent civilian dies would make peace more profitable?


----------



## proudveteran06 (Dec 8, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...




All you have to offer is your big mouth.   Abbas declaring a NJA " Palestinian State" isn't racist?   There aren't any Arabs in Israel?  Know when a Pro- Palestinian lies?  Everytime they open their mouth


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 8, 2012)

irosie91 said:


> There is a very important  COMMONALITY----between the TALIBAN  and the  ARABIST MOVEMENT  into which the  'palestinians'  have been inserted      Both are  manifestations of   "ISLAMIC IMPERIALISM"  ----<<<< see?    simple           that being the case both are bloody and dangerous to the civilized world


Another commonality between the existence of the Taliban and the Jewish State is the US government's proclivity to enhance arms sales markets on behalf of western "defense" contractors. Without the help of the US government, both Israel and the Taliban would not exist in anything like their present forms.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 8, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...


NJA...As in "No Jew Assassins", Einstein.
Or do you believe the "IDF-chosen" should be allowed to continue killing Muslim children for sport?


----------



## Hossfly (Dec 8, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...


Dummheit.


----------



## irosie91 (Dec 8, 2012)

Israel was conceived as a land in which jews would not be oppressed----which to 
a person like GEORGIE is ----grossly OPPRESSIVE.   I am not at all surprised.  
I grew up in a town of nazi pigs      which is why I read nazi literature as a child. 
The stuff was LYING AROUND in sleazy pamphlets and weird magazines.   
The town had been  RESTRICTED  until the post war baby boom and--those VA  
mortgages --TEMPTED   the towns people to BUILD and ----even to sell to  <gasp>
 JOOOOOOOS       that was us.        But they still managed to keep the town  LILY-
WHITE------to them   DESEGREGATION WAS GROSS OPPRESSION     ----to them-
selves       I remember it well----the children of the nazis were INDIGNANT during 
the 1960s  civil rights era.  

      later on ----I went to college----a good friend of mine was a  BRAHMIN HINDU---
he repudiated the whole caste idea-----but told me about his UNCLE ---who was 
INDIGNANT   that the   "scheduled castes"     were  "GETTING EVERYTHING"

See Georgie-?---you are not alone----nazi pigs do not easily give up their 
 PERQUISITES.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 8, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...


Had you been born a generation earlier in Duderstadt, would you have goose-stepped for Hitler?


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## Hossfly (Dec 8, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...


I don't goose step, I elephant stomp. On Nazis.


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## georgephillip (Dec 8, 2012)

irosie91 said:


> Israel was conceived as a land in which jews would not be oppressed----which to
> a person like GEORGIE is ----grossly OPPRESSIVE.   I am not at all surprised.
> I grew up in a town of nazi pigs      which is why I read nazi literature as a child.
> The stuff was LYING AROUND in sleazy pamphlets and weird magazines.
> ...


Which has exactly what to do with the popular sovereignty aspects of five million Jews ruling six million Arabs? Racist conservatives were a staple in my hometown, as well. Which is why I don't accord Jews any more human rights than Arabs. Why are you consistently stuck on bigot?


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## georgephillip (Dec 8, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...


Accident of birth.


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 8, 2012)

ima said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...



   Israel isn't an " Apartheid State".   Israel does have Arabs in it.   A big difference between that and Abbas announcing a NJA Policy.   If you are really against " Apartheid" why don't you condemn the NJA Policy?  Because you and the rest of the Pro- Palestinian posters are nothing but a bunch of racist bigoted Hypocrites.  Nothing new


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 8, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
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> > georgephillip said:
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  Don't see anything wrong with Abbas declaring a NO Jew Allowed Policy?  Typical Pro- Palestinian Racist Bigot.


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## irosie91 (Dec 8, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > Israel was conceived as a land in which jews would not be oppressed----which to
> ...




   Your claim regarding   "five million jews, ruling six million arabs"   is absurd------you are referring to an OCCUPATION of a hostile nation   that attempted ----in  1967---under the leadership of  GAMAL ABDUL NASSER---to annhilate  Israel ------those people living in lands under occupation are NOT CITIZENS  just as the people of  JAPAN were not citizens of the USA    in the post world war era when   the USA   OCCUPIED JAPAN        In fact-----as far as I know----the people of the  VIRGIN ISLANDS  do not vote in USA elections either        I am not even sure your numbers are correct  ------are you including  GAZA in the   "RULED ARABS"   category?-----in fact they are not being  RULED-----in some cases based on their HOSTILE stance and love of murdering jewish infants-----Israel tries to restrict them   and their most favored activities in honor of  ALLAH/ISA         Jews have a  1400 year experience with   ISLAMIC DOMINANCE-----may you and yours be so HONORED     in the same way the Sudanese christians were honored by KHARTOUM     I support the rights of ALL PEOPLE----in some cases  ----LARGER POPULATIONS    must be forced to leave smaller populations in peace        Some LARGER POPULATIONS   use the word  DEMOCRACY  conferring upon them the  "RIGHT"  to rape, murder and pillage----------ie---people like you

If the issue of black slavery was left to the  MAJORITY of USA SOUTHERNERS-------blacks would still be picking cotton in Alabama in chains.

It is very likely that the christians of Egypt will be divested of lots of rights based on YOUR 
concept of  "DEMOCRACY"       In my home town-----the vote against having blacks in the town----WON        but later on -----as the town got diverse----the MAJORITY could not stop private home sales to -----blacks        When I was a kid my mom often said in defiance  of our neighbors-----WHEN I SELL THIS HOUSE--ITS GOING TO A COLORED FAMILY


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## P F Tinmore (Dec 9, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> ima said:
> 
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NJA? Do you have a link?


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## ima (Dec 9, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> proudveteran06 said:
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I'm pretty sure that the whites in South Africa had blacks around to be maids and what not also.


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## docmauser1 (Dec 9, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> _Another commonality between the existence of the Taliban and the Jewish State is the US government's proclivity to enhance arms sales markets on behalf of western "defense" contractors. Without the help of the US government, both Israel and the Taliban would not exist in anything like their present forms._


Drivel.


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## docmauser1 (Dec 9, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> _Or do you believe the "IDF-chosen" should be allowed to continue killing Muslim children for sport?_


How so, if the latter die for allah?


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## docmauser1 (Dec 9, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> _Which has exactly what to do with the popular sovereignty aspects of five million Jews ruling six million Arabs?_


Nah, it's the popular and unpopular sovereignty aspects that matter, of course.


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## georgephillip (Dec 9, 2012)

docmauser1 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > _Or do you believe the "IDF-chosen" should be allowed to continue killing Muslim children for sport?_
> ...


Allah doesn't buy the bullets or pull the trigger.
Do you?


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## docmauser1 (Dec 9, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> docmauser1 said:
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How so, if allah controls everything?


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 9, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> docmauser1 said:
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Notice How the Pro- Palestinian Racist Bigot doesn't condemn Abbas having a NO JEWS ALLOWED Policy?    Typical of the mental midget mindset


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 9, 2012)

ima said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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> 
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Want the " link?"  If you were really interested in the facts you could have looked it up yourself.  However, no Pro- Palestinian is ever interested in the facts.

Abbas vows: No room for Israelis in Palestinian state

By KHALED ABU TOAMEH

LAST UPDATED: 12/25/2010 17:33

PA president says US has failed to pressure Jlem, accuses Israel of deception for blaming PA for impasse in talks.
Photo: AP
 Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas announced on Saturday that when a Palestinian state is established, it will have no Israelis in it.

We have frankly said, and always will say: If there is an independent Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital, we wont agree to the presence of one Israeli in it, Abbas told reporters in Ramallah.

RELATED:
Abbas: We reached deal with Olmert on security
Washington Watch: Settlements are excuse, not obstacle

He was commenting on unconfirmed reports suggesting that the PA leadership might agree to the presence of the IDF in the West Bank after the establishment of a Palestinian state.

We are ready to have peace on the basis of international legitimacy and the road map, which we have accepted, as well as the Arab Peace Initiative, Abbas said. But when a Palestinian state is established, it would have no Israeli presence in it.

 BTW, the " Arab Peace Initiative" includes " Right of Return"   Want " proof?"   Ever hear of GOOGLE?   There will be no response from these rabid racist Pro- Palestinians. There never is.      Just hope Abbas keeps it up. There will NEVER be the " Palestinian State" that he wants.


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## P F Tinmore (Dec 9, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> ima said:
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There is no mention of Jews in this article.


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 9, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> proudveteran06 said:
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> > ima said:
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 Obviously Abbas is referring to Israeli Arabs which are the minority in Israel and Israeli Jews which are the Majority in Israel.   Still a policy of NJA.  Can't help it if you are too stupid to figure it out.      This isn't racist?  Not in the Pro- Palestinian racist mindset


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## P F Tinmore (Dec 9, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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Does that mean that the Palestinian Jews who have lived there since before 1948 will have to leave?


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## Hossfly (Dec 9, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> docmauser1 said:
> 
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But, Georgie Boy, the followers of Mohammed and Allah seem to have no problems in murdering innocent people in so many different places.  Are you such a fanatical Muslim that you don't care about this?  It seems that you are a typical extremist Muslim who has learned to hate the Jews and whatever the Muslims do is of no concern to you, even when they are busy murdering their own.   I can't understand why someone living in a big city with plenty going on why it appears you never leave your apartment but continue on day and night with your bashing of Israel and the Jews.  Do you think you get points with Allah for doing this?


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 9, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> proudveteran06 said:
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The Racist Abbas states that EVERY Israeli ( it IS understood that the majority of them are Jews except for you perhaps) would NOT be allowed to live in the W. Bank, Gaza, or E. Jerusalem Get it?  Of course not.   You are too stupid.

BTW, The Temple Mount is in E. Jerusalem.  Jordan was supposed to give the Israelis access to their Holy Sites but of course didn't.   The Jews will never be deprived of that right again.   Another reason why they will Never give up E. Jerusalem


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## georgephillip (Dec 9, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > docmauser1 said:
> ...


Notice how the in-bred congenital retard can't understand the NJA means no IDF snipers murdering Arab children in Palestine for sport? Do your keepers know you're using their computer?


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## georgephillip (Dec 9, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > docmauser1 said:
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How many innocent people have you murdered, Hossie?
Is that due to your fanatical allegiance to American Exceptionalism or the Religion of Peace?
Slaves like you kill whoever your told to kill no matter where you were born.
That'a another way of saying you're nothing more than a star-spangled Jihadist awaiting kosher Rapture.
Do you think Jesus gives a shit?


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## ima (Dec 10, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> ima said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
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And that's different from Israel having a no Gazans or West Bankers in Israeli policy because...?


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 10, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...



DE- NIAL is not the River.  Ever notice when the  Pro- Palestinian SCUMBAG RACIST   is  challenged as to why Abbas states that Jews/ Israelis are VERBOTEN there is no response?  Just one more example of his hypocrisy.   Maybe the IDF should name streets after the Soldiers who you claim do this and hand out the Candy.  After all, that is what the Palestinians do.  

 SCUMBAG " Palestinian Children" get killed?   They get their " Virgins" much earlier in life, they should have accepted that Israel does exist long ago,  They refuse?  More will get killed.    

NOW;   LET'S PARTY !!!!!


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## georgephillip (Dec 10, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...


*Sieg Heil, Shit-stain:*

"Zionist factions competed for the honor of allying to Hitler. By 1940-41, the 'Stern Gang,' among them Yitzhak Shamir, later Prime Minister of Israel, presented the Nazis with the 'Fundamental Features of the Proposal of the National Military Organization in Palestine (Irgun Zvai Leumi) Concerning the Solution of the Jewish Question in Europe and the *Participation of the NMO in the War on the Side of Germany.*'&#8221;

51 Documents » Counterpunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

PARTY ON, PUSSY!!!!!!!!!!


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 10, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...



Notice how the PRO- PALESTINIAN PRICK still refuses to acknowledge the No Jew/ No Israeli Policy in " Palestine" and that they actually CELEBRATE everytime an Israeli is killed?     You're right;  Everytime a " Palestinian" SCUMBAG is killed I WILL PARTY ON !


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## ima (Dec 10, 2012)

ima said:


> proudveteran06 said:
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> > ima said:
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## proudveteran06 (Dec 10, 2012)

ima said:


> ima said:
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> > proudveteran06 said:
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  Israel does and always will have Arabs within the " 67 Borders" that were never recognized.  Israel will never tolerate not being allowed to enter E. Jerusalem . After 1948 Jordan was supposed to allow Jews access to their Holy Sites but of course they were denied.  This will never happen again.    Only an Idiot like you ( and others) would believe Israel would agree to Borders tHat were NEVER recognized or respected and " Right of Return".   Let Abbas keep insisting on the Borders that were never recognized and still aren't; even today PLUS " Right of Return".  The " Palestinian State" that he wants will never happen


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## ima (Dec 10, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> ima said:
> 
> 
> > ima said:
> ...



I'm guessing that English isn't your first language, so I'll forgive you for being completely beside the topic. You said that the Pals had a no Jew policy and didn't like it. I asked how is that different from Israel not letting the Pals into their territory?


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## georgephillip (Dec 10, 2012)

"A majority of Israeli Jews admit they are living in an apartheid state, a recent survey claimed. Many also believed that *Palestinians should be denied the right to vote*, and suggested that Jewish citizens should be given preferential treatment..."

"On the contentious issue of the West Bank, 38 percent of respondents wanted to annex the territories with settlements, and 48 percent opposed that policy. 

"A followup question on voting rights for Palestinians saw *69 percent* of respondents in favor of *denying 2.5 million of Palestinians the vote* if West Bank territories were annexed.

"More than a half of those questioned said Jews should be given preference over Arabs when applying for jobs in the government sector. And slightly under half favored legalized discrimination of Arabs, saying that the *state should 'treat Jewish citizens better than Arab ones*.'

Israel an apartheid state? A majority of Jews say yes &mdash; RT

The Land of Israel was founded as a Jew-ruled state.
Since there are currently a million more Arabs than Jews living between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River, even retarded Zionists will soon have to choose between a Jewish State or democracy.


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## irosie91 (Dec 10, 2012)

try again  Georgie        now prove to us that there is a poll which shows a 
MAJORITY OF ISRAELIS       checking off    "I BELIEVE THAT ISRAEL SHOULD BE AN APARTHEID STATE"---------ie --you are ----again ----an idiot liar

Right now-----egypt is sinking into the filth of shariah----which BY LAW  renders  non muslims   ---LEGALLY   social and economic  INFERIORS 
and their RELIGIONS  ----legally SHIT         Try to be honest and admit 
that the fact that there is a country in which jews are not oppressed----
bothers you.     You are not alone----there are hundreds of millions of nazi pigs just like you in the world-----long ago I encountered  nazi pigs who felt 
the same way towards hindus that you feel toward jews       THE HEIRS OF 
THE MOGHUL EMPIRE FANTASY----just as overt as your shit


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 10, 2012)

ima said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > ima said:
> ...



  It's obvious you have a problem with reading comprehension; Nothing to " guess" about.  I never stated I " didn't like it" first of all. What I was comparing was the Double Standard and what Abbas expects of Israel which is not going to happen.    I never stated that Abbas should " let Israelis"  move into the " Palestinian Territory "either.  Referring to " Right of Return" again?  The answer should be obvious even to someone like you ( read slowly).  Eventually the Palestinians will outnumber the JEWISH ISRAELIS and " Israel Proper"  ( the 67 Borders will will never happen) will be annexed to the " Palestinian State".   Hamas vowed to destroy Israel and that is the best way to make it happen?  Can't do it from the outside?  They can do it from the inside.  Tell us again.....  EXACTLY what are the Palestinians doing to " negotiate?"  Forgot..... there is nobody home.  Get it now?  Of course not.


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 10, 2012)

irosie91 said:


> try again  Georgie        now prove to us that there is a poll which shows a
> MAJORITY OF ISRAELIS       checking off    "I BELIEVE THAT ISRAEL SHOULD BE AN APARTHEID STATE"---------ie --you are ----again ----an idiot liar
> 
> Right now-----egypt is sinking into the filth of shariah----which BY LAW  renders  non muslims   ---LEGALLY   social and economic  INFERIORS
> ...





Since there are currently a million more Arabs than Jews living between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River, even retarded Zionists will soon have to choose between a Jewish State or democracy. 


Rose,

 If he really feels this way why doesn't the Pro- Palestinian Racist SCUMBAG condemn Abbas for not allowing ANY Israeli ( even Arab) or Jew to live in his state?   

  Because the above says it all.


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## irosie91 (Dec 10, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > try again  Georgie        now prove to us that there is a poll which shows a
> ...




Veteran ---it is the MAFIA APPROACH-----he is making   OFFERS THAT CANNOT 
   BE REFUSED           review islamic history starting with the koran.    it is ALL 
   BASED ON MAKING OFFERS THAT CANNOT BE REFUSED       Keep in mind---
   Being a dhimmi in islamic law is the result of a  "TREATY"    ---a contract 
   between  "consenting adults"


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## georgephillip (Dec 10, 2012)

irosie91 said:


> try again  Georgie        now prove to us that there is a poll which shows a
> MAJORITY OF ISRAELIS       checking off    "I BELIEVE THAT ISRAEL SHOULD BE AN APARTHEID STATE"---------ie --you are ----again ----an idiot liar
> 
> Right now-----egypt is sinking into the filth of shariah----which BY LAW  renders  non muslims   ---LEGALLY   social and economic  INFERIORS
> ...


69% of the "chosen", according to this poll, favor denying the vote to 2.5 million Palestinians living on the West Bank when "creeping annexation" completes its RACIST mission. The "filth of Sharia" that Egypt and other states are contending with today would not exist today if the US and its prime Middle East proxy hadn't supported Muslim Fundamentalists in opposition to secular nationalist Arabs who actually believed the oil beneath their land belonged to them instead of bankers in London and on Wall Street.

Worry less about your MOGHUL FANTASY and more about the millions of innocent Muslims who've been murdered, maimed, displaced, incarcerated, and raped by YOUR OWN FUCKING COUNTRY, BITCH!

Israel an apartheid state? A majority of Jews say yes &mdash; RT


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 10, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > try again  Georgie        now prove to us that there is a poll which shows a
> ...



LET THIS RACIST BIGOTED PRO- PALESTINIAN COCK SUCKER RANT ON AND ON ABOUT ISRAEL WHILE IGNORING THE HATE AND RACISM IN HIS OWN FILTHY MUSLIM WORLD!!    LET'S START WITH THE NO JEWS ALLOWED IN SAUDI ARABIA!  NEXT WE WILL PROCEED TO THE SUDAN WHERE THOSE ARAB COCK SUCKERS ARE ENSLAVING, BEATING, BEHEADING CHRISTIANS!  LET'S TALK ABOUT THE MANY CHRISTIANS THEY HAVE KILLED, CHURCHES THAT HAVE BEEN BURNED DOWN, INCLUDING MANY HINDU PLACES OF WORSHIP!  WAIT..... FORGOT..... LET'S TALK ABOUT STONING SOMEONE TO DEATH, " HONOR KILLINGS" AMD SO MANY OTHER THINGS THESE SAVAGES ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR ! BLAMING SHARIA FILTH ON THE U.S?  THAT IS WHAT FILTH DOES.  BLAME OTHERS INSTEAD OF THE ONES WHO ARE RESPONSIBLE


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## irosie91 (Dec 10, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > try again  Georgie        now prove to us that there is a poll which shows a
> ...


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## georgephillip (Dec 10, 2012)

In fact, assuming you are American, your country has displaced MILLIONS of Muslims since 1991, quite possibly rivaling the number of Muslims murdered, maimed, and raped by holy Hindus.


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## irosie91 (Dec 10, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> In fact, assuming you are American, your country has displaced MILLIONS of Muslims since 1991, quite possibly rivaling the number of Muslims murdered, maimed, and raped by holy Hindus.



oh   the islamic version of history-----try again  georgie-----the invading Moghul dogs ----left their stinking yurts in the hills and murdered  more than 100 million hindus in the first  100 years of their OCCUPATION OF HINDU INDIA     and they have been murdering   Hindus ever since .     I know your version of history-------in fact it was the first history of the Indian subcontinent I learned    -----THE MOGHUL RULES ALL   shit  

    Hinduism in India is 5000 years old-----the moghul dogs should go back to their stinking yurts in the hills and eat their   rotted  meat and stinking mare's milk        

 as to the myth of hindu aggression against muslims-----I have seen the TRUTH UP CLOSE    ---lying dogs


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## georgephillip (Dec 10, 2012)

All of which you allege without the slightest attempt at offering proof has little or NOTHING AT ALL to do with US supported Zio-crimes in Palestine.

650,000 Jew inflict a Jewish State by force of arms upon 1.2 MILLION Arabs and it MOGHUL dogs who are responsible?

If your habara propaganda wasn't so predictably pathetic, it wouldn't be worth reading.


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## RoccoR (Dec 11, 2012)

irosie91,  et al,

Yes, I don't quite understand this allegation that the US displaced "millions of Muslims."



irosie91 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > In fact, assuming you are American, your country has displaced MILLIONS of Muslims since 1991, quite possibly rivaling the number of Muslims murdered, maimed, and raped by holy Hindus.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Can you give me an example?  I am confused.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## ima (Dec 11, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> ima said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...



Ok, let's try this again, you fucking douchesack. I asked how is it different that the Pals don't allow jews on their territory and the Israelis don't allow Pals in Israel. How is that different?


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## P F Tinmore (Dec 11, 2012)

ima said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > ima said:
> ...



Palestinian Prime Minister Salam Fayyad on Saturday said that Jews would enjoy freedom and full civil rights in a future Palestinian state, according to a report in the Aspen Daily News.

"Jews, to the extent they choose to stay and live in the state of Palestine, will enjoy those rights and certainly will not enjoy any less rights than Israeli Arabs enjoy now in the state of Israel," Fayyad said in response to a question from former CIA director James Woolsey at the Aspen Institute's Ideas Festival. 

Fayyad: Jews can be equal citizens in Palestinian state - Israel News | Haaretz Daily Newspaper


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## irosie91 (Dec 11, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> ima said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...




   Fayyad creates an excellent precedent     Jews can have rights in the faux "palestine"   that arabs have in Israel ------by the same token---muslims from around the world can have the same rights in JERUSALEM that jews have in Mecca .      Muslims in INDIA  should be granted the same rights that HINDUS have in saudi arabia      Equity is Justice


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 11, 2012)

ima said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > ima said:
> ...



 I answered you ; you fucking douchsack ( probably with a prick)  Take a course in reading comphrension.  You are OBVIOUSLY referring to " Right of Return" and I explained it to you. What is there that you don't understand?   Israel isn't asking any ARABS who live withing the " 1967 Borders" that the Arabs never recognized or respected  to move.    Israel isn't asking for a 100 % Jewish State with no Arabs allowed.  Exactly what Palestinians are in the the 1967 Borders that were never recognized or respected?   Show me evidence of Israel attempting to remove them.  

  Now, tell us again   you fucking PRICK; Tell us EXACTLY what the Palestinians are doing to " negotiate"


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## ima (Dec 11, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> ima said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...



So the Tinman showed that Gazans had no problem with Jews moving into an independent Palestinian state, so it's just the jews who don't want more arabs in Israel. It's ok, you lose again. Please try again soon.


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## georgephillip (Dec 11, 2012)

RoccoR said:


> irosie91,  et al,
> 
> Yes, I don't quite understand this allegation that the US displaced "millions of Muslims."
> 
> ...


Rocco..I was referring to the US invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq and the refugee flow they produced.

"The United Nations estimates that nearly 2.2 million Iraqis have fled the country since 2003,[1] with nearly 100,000 fleeing to Syria and Jordan each month between 2003 and 2006."

Refugees of Iraq - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Dec 11, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> ima said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
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Asshole,

Israel is pushing Palestinians off of their lands, inside the 1967 borders, CPT documents this, as do human rights groups, it is happening everyday! 

Ethnic cleansing has been nonstop by Israel since 1948! 

Israel needs to simply get the fuck out of East Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza for good and stop attacks upon the children and civilians of Palestine!

Israel needs to end her Occupation of Palestine!

Sherri


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 11, 2012)

ima said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > ima said:
> ...



 I'm not referring to the Jews moving into " Palestine".   I am referring to " Right of Return" which would eventually make Israel an annex to the " Palestinian State".   Try again....  you loose.  However, all Pro- Palestinians are loosers


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 11, 2012)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > ima said:
> ...



  Asshole,

     Israel is NEVER going to go back to the borders that the Arabs themselves have NEVER acknowledged or accepted or allow " Right of Return".  It's that simple.  Many of Israel's religious sites are in E. Jerusalem.  Israel will NEVER be deprived of them again.


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 11, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > irosie91,  et al,
> ...


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## RoccoR (Dec 11, 2012)

georgephillip,  _et al,_

Ah yes, with rare exceptions _(like the Palestinians)_, in almost every war/conflict area, there are columns of refugees that travel perpendicular and away from the forward edge of the battle area.



georgephillip said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, I don't quite understand this allegation that the US displaced "millions of Muslims."
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

One of "many" reasons the US likes these 100 day wars _(3 months)_ is that it puts a less of a strain on the refugee service components (UNHCR).

But, unfortunately, these very quick conventional battle scenarios give way to a very protracted post-conflict phase which are often a 10-to-30 times in duration as the war/conflict.  On the US side of the house, this is because the focus on organization, training and supplies is on the "warfighter" and not the inevitability of the displaced.

It is actually easier to submit a favorable budget proposal for a weapons system and the Table of Organization to support it, than to secure funding for a Constabulary Unit that deals with post-Combat Occupation area concerns and refugees.  The US is so very good at strike and annihilation capabilities, but so very bad at the administration of areas after the opposing force has been defeated.  Thus, Iraq today doesn't look anything like the Iraq that was envisioned prior to the invasion.  And the Afghanistan of today is a decade long struggle that is still unresolved.

Yes, I see what you mean.  But when the administration has has never been able to pull-off post-conflict operations very well.  That is the hidden trap behind Libya; and future trap of involvement in Syria.  We should stay as far away from those entanglements as possible.  All America needs in the region is --- still more enemies to blame us for helping.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 11, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> ima said:
> 
> 
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Abbas: No Jews in Palestinian State




In 1948 and again in 1967, Israel made big steps to naturalize Palestinians living in annexed territories.

The Druze in the Golan, for example, have virtually all accepted citizenship, been given access to world-class education and healthcare for free, and volunteer for the army.  They are free to travel anywhere in Israel, including the Arab free roads in Judea and Samaria.  They have Israeli passports and enjoy every freedom given to people in the Western, democratic world.

The Palestinians living in cities like Umm Al-Faham, Haifa, Tel Aviv, and Jerusalem were all given the same offer.  In Haifa, Israeli Arabs live next door to Israeli Jews in peace.  I will admit that there are problems.  Racism is a major issue.  There is some segregation between neighborhoods, but that is no different from Black neighborhoods and Mexican neighborhoods and White neighborhoods in the United States.  They are all given the same rights.

So why do the Palestinians treat the Jews differently?

Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas made it clear that a future state called Palestine will not be a home to Jews.


We have frankly said, and always will say: If there is an independent Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital, we wont agree to the presence of one Israeli in it.


Try to read SLOWLY you fucking DOUCHBAG


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## P F Tinmore (Dec 11, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > ima said:
> ...





> Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas made it clear that a future state called Palestine will not be a home to Jews.



Do you have a link?


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## docmauser1 (Dec 11, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> _Palestinian Prime Minister Salam Fayyad on Saturday said that Jews would enjoy freedom and full civil rights in a future Palestinian state, according to a report in the Aspen Daily News._


A PM of the illegal government, of course.


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## docmauser1 (Dec 11, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> _650,000 Jew inflict a Jewish State by force of arms upon 1.2 MILLION Arabs and it MOGHUL dogs who are responsible?_


1.2 mln. arabs shouldn't've tried to inflict by force of arms an arab state on 650.000 jews, of course.


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## ima (Dec 11, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> ima said:
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So you agree that the Pals have a right of return but you just refuse it to them? It's a start.


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## toomuchtime_ (Dec 11, 2012)

ima said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
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> > ima said:
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There is no such thing as a universal right of return.  If there were, much of the world would be playing musical nations.  Jews have a right of return to Israel because Israeli law says they do.


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 11, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> proudveteran06 said:
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No mention of Jews?  Try to read    

Abbas: No Jews in Palestinian State




In 1948 and again in 1967, Israel made big steps to naturalize Palestinians living in annexed territories.

The Druze in the Golan, for example, have virtually all accepted citizenship, been given access to world-class education and healthcare for free, and volunteer for the army. They are free to travel anywhere in Israel, including the Arab free roads in Judea and Samaria. They have Israeli passports and enjoy every freedom given to people in the Western, democratic world.

The Palestinians living in cities like Umm Al-Faham, Haifa, Tel Aviv, and Jerusalem were all given the same offer. In Haifa, Israeli Arabs live next door to Israeli Jews in peace. I will admit that there are problems. Racism is a major issue. There is some segregation between neighborhoods, but that is no different from Black neighborhoods and Mexican neighborhoods and White neighborhoods in the United States. They are all given the same rights.

So why do the Palestinians treat the Jews differently?

Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas made it clear that a future state called Palestine will not be a home to Jews.


We have frankly said, and always will say: If there is an independent Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital, we wont agree to the presence of one Israeli in it.

   There will be no response; There never is


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 11, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


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Click here: Abbas: No Jews in Palestinian State  The Israel Situation 


Of course there will not be an answer.  There never is.   It's O.K. for Abbas to DEMAND that even ISRAELI ARABS leave but Israel is supposed to accept " Right of Return" which would eventually annex them to the " Palestinian State?"  Hold your breath till it happens; It never will.


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## eots (Dec 11, 2012)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYXdoipaqnY&feature=g-high-rec]Israeli Soldiers Breaking The Silence on the Occupation of Palestine - YouTube[/ame]


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 11, 2012)

ima said:


> proudveteran06 said:
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" Right of Return" ( which will never happen) calls for those who wants to live " with their neignbors in peace"   lol   something the Palestinians have no intention of doing.  Hamas can't destroy Israel from the outside; they will try their best from the inside.  Again; Being the Pro- Palestinian that you are you lose


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## RoccoR (Dec 11, 2012)

eots, _et al,_

This is an interesting debate.  This is one way that the counter-point should be addressed.



eots said:


> Israeli Soldiers Breaking The Silence on the Occupation of Palestine - YouTube


*(COMMENT)*

This young man seems to talk about it rationally and coherently.  It is not a debate, but a single sided narrative_ (no counterpoint or opposing view)_.  Yet!  It opens some legitimate avenues to address and discuss.  

Clearly, he points-out an inequality in the administration of Gaza and the West Bank, and the difference between how an Israeli citizen is treated versus how the Palestinian is treated.  

And I believe that this is an essential initial first step.  Understanding what is going on.

I think that this little video is well worth the viewing time.  And it exemplifies the discussion that the Israelis have internally about the way they administer the "Occupied Territories"  and treat the Palestinians.

As I've said, neither side has clean hands.  And it is through rational dialog that we can bring both sides together and create solutions.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## ima (Dec 12, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> ima said:
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I'm not pro-Pal, I'm pro-peace, probably the only one at this board.
And sorry to have to tell you, but if Hamas detonates a nuke on their border with Israel, they'll take most of Israel with them. On that, you lose BIGTIME!


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## P F Tinmore (Dec 12, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > artfulcodger,
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> In May 1967, Israeli officials began to publicly threaten military action against Syria if Syria did not stop Palestinian guerrillas from crossing the border into Israel.



The UN has some responsibility for this conflict.

In 1949 the UN armistice agreement drew a cease fire line along the Syria/Palestine border dividing Syrian and Israeli forces. There was, however, no effort to address the question of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. The "Palestinian question," they stated, would be addressed at a later date. Well, by 1967 there had been no effort to address that question. By 2012 there still has been no effort to address that question.


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## georgephillip (Dec 12, 2012)

docmauser1 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > _650,000 Jew inflict a Jewish State by force of arms upon 1.2 MILLION Arabs and it MOGHUL dogs who are responsible?_
> ...


*"Popular sovereignty* or the sovereignty of the people is the principle that the legitimacy of the state is created and sustained by the will or consent of its people, who are the source of all political power..."

*Possibly, you prefer the kosher version?*

"The term 'squatter sovereignty' is used by Jefferson Davis in his book A Short History of the Confederate States of America. This term referred to the influx of new citizens in order to manipulate the ultimate sovereign votes."

*Do you remember how apartheid turned out for the Confederacy?*

Popular sovereignty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## P F Tinmore (Dec 12, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> docmauser1 said:
> 
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The "state of Israel" was created in Palestine without the consent of the people. There was never a vote, but all indications show that the vast majority of the people were opposed to the creation of Israel.


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## georgephillip (Dec 12, 2012)

RoccoR said:


> eots, _et al,_
> 
> This is an interesting debate.  This is one way that the counter-point should be addressed.
> 
> ...


We are agreed neither side has clean hands, yet Israeli hands are dirtied from enforcing an illegal occupation while Palestinian hands get soiled by resisting the illegal occupation.

Do you have any guesses about what might happen if the BDS movement gains sufficient strength to compel tens of thousands of "Jewish" settlers to leave the West Bank?


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## georgephillip (Dec 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
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Including a substantial number of Jews who saw the consequences of carving a Jewish homeland out of Arab real estate. Chomsky claims it was primarily elite Zionists who wanted a Jewish state in Palestine prior to 1948.


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## P F Tinmore (Dec 12, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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That is true. Most of the native Jews were opposed to the creation Israel.


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 12, 2012)

ima said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
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> > ima said:
> ...



  " Pro- Peace" is something that should have been thought about well before 1967.  They could have had their " Palestinian State" a long time ago.  " Right of Return" also calls for those who want to " live in peace with their Neighbors".  Those are not my words..   Hamas detonating a nuke?   LOL!  Yet supposedly every Pro- Palestinian says they are afraid Israel will do it.  Again... Being the Pro- Palestinian that you are you show your true colors.

  If Israel threatened to do it they would be accused of initiating WW 111!  Let Hamas initiate it instead.   Just typical of the PRO- PALESTINIAN double standard.    You are the looser....BIG TIME...Being the PRO- PALESTINIAN THAT YOU ARE...


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore;6482395

The "state of Israel" was created in Palestine without the consent of the people. There was never a vote said:
			
		

> Deal with it.... It's there with the JEWISH MAJORITY, no returning to the Borders that were NEVER recognized or respected and NO " Right of Return   '


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## Hossfly (Dec 12, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> Hossfly said:
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We know one thing, Georgie Boy, that if you were ever called up in a draft, you would be running to Canada like the coward you are instead of serving this country.  And for all we know since anyone can be what they want to on the Internet, the way you bash this country, there's a good chance that you weren't even born here, and I wouldn't be surprised if you were born in some Muslim country.  Meanwhile, Georgie, since the invention of Islam, Muslims have been killing millions and millions of people in the name of Allah, and they are still killing them for Allah.  And maybe you are not killing anyone for Allah as you sit safely in your apartment in Los Angeles, but you certainly are serving him by being on this message board day and night bashing America and Israel.  This is some life you lead.


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## Hossfly (Dec 12, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> In fact, assuming you are American, your country has displaced MILLIONS of Muslims since 1991, quite possibly rivaling the number of Muslims murdered, maimed, and raped by holy Hindus.


"Your country," Georgie???  What country are you a citizen of?  American citizens would refer to America as "our country."  Certainly sounds like Georgie is a Muslim who typically hates the Hindus.  He certainly would have gotten along famously with the Muslim woman poster who wanted to see hundreds of millions of Hindus eradicated just so Islam could rule India.


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 12, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > In fact, assuming you are American, your country has displaced MILLIONS of Muslims since 1991, quite possibly rivaling the number of Muslims murdered, maimed, and raped by holy Hindus.
> ...




Click here: muslim crimes against hindus - AOL Search Results 

He denies that Muslims have a History of Murdering Hindus;  If anything he stated it was the other way around.  Just typical of these disgusting Pro- Palestinians.


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## ima (Dec 12, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> ima said:
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I'm pro-peace, I think that Israel should do a deal with the Pals while they still have the upper hand, and before Iran develops nukes. Don't you agree?


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## georgephillip (Dec 12, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > In fact, assuming you are American, your country has displaced MILLIONS of Muslims since 1991, quite possibly rivaling the number of Muslims murdered, maimed, and raped by holy Hindus.
> ...


Few if any of us posting here have way of knowing who we are communicating with or where those we're communicating with actually live. How do you know rosie isn't posting from Tel Aviv?

For the second or third time I was born in Michigan in 1947 and have lived in southern California for over sixty years. Unlike you and many conservatives I grew up with, I don't believe there's one morality for the US and another for the rest of the world.

Why do you?


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## georgephillip (Dec 12, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


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It would be useful if we could find a poll revealing Jewish sentiment in Mandate Palestine for the creation of a Jewish State. No doubt many educated Palestinians of the time were clear on what Sir Ronald Storrs had in mind:

"Sir Ronald Storrs, the first (British) Governor of Jerusalem, certainly had no illusions about what a '*Jewish homeland' in Palestine* meant for the British Empire: 'It will form for England,' he said, &#8220;a little loyal Jewish Ulster in a sea of potentially hostile Arabism.'&#8221;

Divide and Conquer as Imperial Rules | FPIF

That "sea of potentially hostile Arabism" is getting deeper by the minute.
Do you think Bibi can swim?


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## georgephillip (Dec 12, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
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I've never denied Muslim crimes against Hindus.
I have pointed out examples of Hindu retaliation (and worse)

"Obviously, it is extremely difficult for the *right wing hardcore Hindu terrorist organizations* and their allies to survive in Indian politics without using hatred against Islam and Pakistan. 

"Communal political outs like RSS, VHP, Sivasena, and BJP etc, are the major culprits in spreading hate and anger amongst Indians against Islam and Pakistan and after the ghastly destruction of Babri Mosque in Uttar Pradesh in order to gain political mileage in polls now they want to escape punishment for their crimes and the ruling Congress and allies try to protect the Hindutuva crimes because that is their agenda too." 

I'm also clear on the tens of millions of North American Indians and Middle Eastern Muslims the US government has murdered, maimed, and displaced over the last 150 years.

Are you?

KashmirWatch - Latest News & In-depth Coverage on Kashmir Conflict


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## irosie91 (Dec 12, 2012)

it interests me very much that a few OTHER people  (ie other than myself)  have noticed that  georgie has the mindset of a muslim from the Indian 
subcontinent.    It is muslims from India and pakistan who INTRODUCED me to    that mindset LONG AGO-----in fact----about 50 years ago  ----when I was a child------and ever since.     Tell us the truth  Georgie-----I am a jew---born of two jewish parents both born in the USA----a few of my grandparents were born in europe---england and  austria ---but my mom's  mother----who I would say was the most influential in my  "culture"  was also born in the USA.     SEE?   that is my cultural background    I am not ashamed


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## georgephillip (Dec 12, 2012)

I can't help noticing how you have the mindset of a hasbara-hack from Haifa.
And I'm sure that causes you no lost sleep, either.


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## irosie91 (Dec 12, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> I can't help noticing how you have the mindset of a hasbara-hack from Haifa.
> And I'm sure that causes you no lost sleep, either.



That's a silly thing to say   "georgie"    When I was first introduced to the islamic mindset----I did not even know where Haifa was      I notice that you,  georgie---are STILL unwilling to state anything about your  "cultural background"


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## ima (Dec 12, 2012)

irosie91 said:


> it interests me very much that a few OTHER people  (ie other than myself)  have noticed that  georgie has the mindset of a muslim from the Indian
> subcontinent.    It is muslims from India and pakistan who INTRODUCED me to    that mindset LONG AGO-----in fact----*about 50 years ago  ----when I was a child*------and ever since.     Tell us the truth  Georgie-----I am a jew---born of two jewish parents both born in the USA----a few of my grandparents were born in europe---england and  austria ---but my mom's  mother----who I would say was the most influential in my  "culture"  was also born in the USA.     SEE?   that is my cultural background    I am not ashamed



More like 75 years ago when you were a child.


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 12, 2012)

ima said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > ima said:
> ...



  Israel is not going to " deal" with the Palestinians by making ALL the Concessions.  It's that simple. Tell us exactly what the Palestenians are doing to contribute to the " negotiations"   Inferring that Iran will INITIATE War with Israel?  ( WW 111)  WOW!!!!!     Could you imagine if ISRAEL made that threat?  They would be called DIRTY JEWS, WARMONGERS, AND G*D KNOWS WHAT ELSE!!!!   Just more of the Anti- Israel Pro- Palestinian DOUBLE STANDARD we have all come to know


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## BecauseIKnow (Dec 12, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> ima said:
> 
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> > proudveteran06 said:
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What?


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## Hossfly (Dec 12, 2012)

ima said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > it interests me very much that a few OTHER people  (ie other than myself)  have noticed that  georgie has the mindset of a muslim from the Indian
> ...


Why, Ima, we realize that you are a bored hausfrau who is always insinuating that other posters are so old and that you are allegedly a "spring chicken," but even "spring chickens" nowadays go to work and don't spend their time from the morning on posting nonsense on message boards.  Is there something physically or mentally wrong with you that you can't hold onto a job, or is the "Herr" (now that you have become a Frau) unwilling to let you out to even get a part time job at Macy's or some other department store for the holidays?


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## Hossfly (Dec 12, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
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Why, Georgie Boy, isn't it the Kashmir Muslims who are threatening to pull a Mumbai type of attack if they don't get their own way?  By the way, could you give us statistics from some legitimate site such as a university history department that will tell us exactly how many Native Americans were actually living here before people arrived from Europe.  Additionally, isn't it strange that most of the posters who are either entirely Native America or have a parent or grandparent who was one stick up for Israel?  No doubt Georgie Boy would have gotten disgusted with them on the other boards where they were participants.
Plus, it looks like Georgie Boy, the good Muslim is blaming the U.S. government on the plight of the Arabs in the Middle East for the last 150 years.  Of course, he will never admit that they have brought so much trouble onto themselves even though the Muslims have been busy murdering each other.  If this country is so bad, Georgie, why in the world did you immigrate here?  Millions of people around the world would be happy to take your place.  As one Muslim comedian said in an interview, every time he goes back to Iran to visit, his cousins ask him how they can get to come to the U.S.  Maybe Georgie should volunteer to let one of them take his place.

Unless Kashmir issue is solved, Mumbai-like attacks always a possibility: Imran Khan - Pakistan - IBNLive


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## eots (Dec 12, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
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 I think he said blah blah blah..( WW 111) WOW!!!! ISRAEL  DIRTY JEWS, WARMONGERS, AND G*D KNOWS WHAT ELSE!!!! DOUBLE STANDARD ...blah blah blah...or art least that's what I got out of it..


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## georgephillip (Dec 12, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
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I didn't notice any Muslim threatening violence if "they don't get their way" in your link:

"Pakistani cricketer-turned-politician Imran Khan on Wednesday said time was up for trying to solve India-Pakistan issues through 'militancy and militarily' but asserted that unless Kashmir issue was resolved, there was '*always a possibility*' of Mumbai-like attacks. 

"Khan, chief of Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf, also said if his party comes to power, he will not allow terrorism against India to originate from his country's soil."

When are you planning to call for an end for terrorism originating from "US soil" scattered across the globe?

"We were standing in front of a massive 145-acre construction site for a 'little America' rising in Vicenza, an architecturally renowned Italian city and UNESCO world heritage site near Venice. 

"This was Dal Molin, the new military base the U.S. Army has been readying for the relocation of as many as 2,000 soldiers from Germany in 2013.

"Since 1955, Vicenza has also been home to another major U.S. base, Camp Ederle. They&#8217;re among the more than *1,000 bases the United States uses to ring the globe* (with about 4,000 more in the 50 states and Washington, D.C.). 

"This complex of military installations, unprecedented in history, has been a major, if little noticed, aspect of U.S. power since World War II."

Picking Up a $170 Billion Tab: How US Taxpayers Are Paying the Pentagon to Occupy the Planet

I am blaming the US government ( and its useless tools) for garrisoning the globe for the benefit of the richest one percent of Americans while sticking US taxpayers with the $170 Billion/year bill.


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## georgephillip (Dec 12, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> ima said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
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Palestinians are NOT building settlements in Israel and filling them with Arabs from around the globe.
Palestinians are NOT currently subject to nearly 100 UNSC Resolutions condemning their illegal occupation of Israel.
Palestinians are NOT whining about NOT having partners for peace negotiations while stealing the land that Jew-only roads are built on.
Heroic Palestinian snipers are NOT using Jew children for target practice.

Are they?


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## irosie91 (Dec 12, 2012)

yes they are    georgie        Lots of them are in jail in the USA  for trying to entertain dogs like you  and sherri  by blowing the brains out of jewish children right here in the USA  as part of your shared agenda      They shoot and murder for allah/isa----when and where they  FIND THE OPPORTUNITY       As I am sure you know-----the KORANIC SCHOLARS have determined that no only a ALL ISRAELIS  regardless of age and gender legal targets for people like you and sherri------all jews are.


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 12, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > ima said:
> ...


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## georgephillip (Dec 12, 2012)

irosie91 said:


> yes they are    georgie        Lots of them are in jail in the USA  for trying to entertain dogs like you  and sherri  by blowing the brains out of jewish children right here in the USA  as part of your shared agenda      They shoot and murder for allah/isa----when and where they  FIND THE OPPORTUNITY       As I am sure you know-----the KORANIC SCHOLARS have determined that no only a ALL ISRAELIS  regardless of age and gender legal targets for people like you and sherri------all jews are.


How many Arab children are rotting in Israeli jails?


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## irosie91 (Dec 12, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > yes they are    georgie        Lots of them are in jail in the USA  for trying to entertain dogs like you  and sherri  by blowing the brains out of jewish children right here in the USA  as part of your shared agenda      They shoot and murder for allah/isa----when and where they  FIND THE OPPORTUNITY       As I am sure you know-----the KORANIC SCHOLARS have determined that no only a ALL ISRAELIS  regardless of age and gender legal targets for people like you and sherri------all jews are.
> ...



None----they are getting educated----and are treated very well     Some even come out of israeli jails with college degrees        Their only problem seems to be what to do with all the SOAP they are given-----they  hand it to their family visitors as gifts        I have a distant relative who is a social worker for those kids      I understand that you resent the fact that a child stopped with a bomb on his body  -----did not get a chance to DETONATE-----better luck next time


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 12, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > yes they are    georgie        Lots of them are in jail in the USA  for trying to entertain dogs like you  and sherri  by blowing the brains out of jewish children right here in the USA  as part of your shared agenda      They shoot and murder for allah/isa----when and where they  FIND THE OPPORTUNITY       As I am sure you know-----the KORANIC SCHOLARS have determined that no only a ALL ISRAELIS  regardless of age and gender legal targets for people like you and sherri------all jews are.
> ...



NOT ENOUGH


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## georgephillip (Dec 12, 2012)

How many would that be?


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## BecauseIKnow (Dec 12, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> How many would that be?



I think 'proudveteran' is actually a 'proud Zionist' .....kind of like the Likud charter mentality. He resembles those ideals.


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 12, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > How many would that be?
> ...



  If a Palestinian said the same thing about Israelis and accomplished the Mission a Street would be named after him and they would be handing out the Candy.  The Hypocrisy of the Pro- Palestinians. That is what they are best known for


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## BecauseIKnow (Dec 12, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
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English...?


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## georgephillip (Dec 12, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > How many would that be?
> ...


Both sides in Palestine have their lunatic fringe:

*"Who is funding the rabbi who endorses killing gentile babies..."*

"The more stringent will note that unlike the Hamas government, our government does not pay the salaries of rabbis who advocate the killing of babies.

"Is that so? Not really.

"For example, government ministries regularly transfer support and funding to a yeshiva whose rabbi determined that it is *permissible to kill gentile babies 'because their presence assists murder*, and there is reason to harm children if it is clear that they will grow up to harm us ... it is permissible to harm the children of a leader in order to stop him from acting evilly ... we have seen in the Halakha that even babies of gentiles who do not violate the seven Noahide laws, there is cause to kill them because of the future threat that will be caused if they are raised to be wicked people like their parents.'"

Who is funding the rabbi who endorses killing gentile babies? - Israel News | Haaretz Daily Newspaper


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## Hossfly (Dec 12, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...


Why, Georgie Boy, were you in a coma when that Mumbai incident happened?  Even Muslims were murdered by the Muslim killers in that event.  Since you have such a big problem with the U.S., why not move back to a Muslim country and let someone immigrate here who would appreciate this country.  It is obvious that you certainly don't.  And speaking of taxes, don't worry your head over it since you probably don't pay any taxes anyway.  For all we know, with all the time you are able to spend on this message board and coming from a foreign country, the U.S. taxpayer is no doubt paying for your keep.  One thing that must get Georgie's goat is that even though there are still many poor people in India, India is on its way toward becoming a world power and the Hindus are certainly not going to roll over and let Islam rule them.


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## BecauseIKnow (Dec 12, 2012)

George don't feed the troll


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## Hossfly (Dec 12, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> George don't feed the troll


Eots already had supper.


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## georgephillip (Dec 12, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
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*Mumbai pales in comparison to US crimes against humanity:*

"The 2008 Mumbai attacks were eleven coordinated shooting and bombing attacks across Mumbai, India's largest city, by Islamist terrorists[6][7] who were trained in and came from Pakistan.[8] The attackers allegedly received reconnaissance (recce) assistance before the attacks. 

"Ajmal Kasab, the only attacker who was captured alive, later confessed upon interrogation that the attacks were conducted with the support of Pakistan's ISI.[9][10] The attacks, which drew widespread global condemnation, began on Wednesday, 26 November and lasted until Saturday, 29 November 2008, *killing 164 people and wounding at least 308*.[2][11]"

2008 Mumbai attacks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Estimates of insurgent casualties are complicated by a lack of official figures. Most estimates places the number of i*nsurgents killed at around 1,200[46] to 1,500*,[47] with some estimations as high as over 2,000 killed.[48][49] 

"Coalition forces also captured approximately 1,500 insurgents during the operation.[50] 

"The Red Cross estimated directly following the battle that some *800 civilians had been killed *during the offensive.[51]

Second Battle of Fallujah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have no trouble condemning both crimes.
Unlike kosher war whores.


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## georgephillip (Dec 12, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> George don't feed the troll


Hossie from Haifa needs to earn his daily hasbara bread.


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## Hossfly (Dec 12, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
> 
> > George don't feed the troll
> ...


Tell us Georgie, who stands a better chance of ending up in Gitmo? I who supports Israel or you who supports a terrorist Hamas?


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## Hossfly (Dec 12, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
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> > George don't feed the troll
> ...


Hossie's ancestors were living in America when your ancestors were still living in tents in some Muslim country.  By the way, so many of us have learned a new word from these message boards -- "hasbara" straight from the hate sites.  Does anyone think that people coming from a Muslim country like Georgie ever heard of the word "hasbara" until they read about it on some hate site?


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## Hossfly (Dec 12, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> Hossfly said:
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Looks like the good Muslim Georgie Boy will never admit that his own brethren have murdered millions and millions and millions since the invention of Islam.  Why did you immigrate here in the first place, Georgie Boy, since it is apparent that you hate this country?  You could have saved yourself all the aggravation of living here if you would have stayed put in the Muslim country in which you were born.


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## ima (Dec 13, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> georgephillip said:
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housefly, you're waaayyyy too old to be put in gitmo. I think the cut off age is 75.


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## irosie91 (Dec 13, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> georgephillip said:
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Hoss   I do agree with you that based on LINGO and  "IDEOLOGY"     georgie is an islamo-nazi          Islamo nazi lingo has not changed much  for almost a century-----  It is very possible that he was educated in  something like a shariah shit hole----or is highly influenced by people who were.     More than 40 years ago     a  NEWLY ARRIVED  pakistani in the USA   told me that   "ashkenazi" jews    and  "sephardi"  jews were killing 
each other in Israel       I grew up in a largely christian town----worked with christians ---went to school with christians and did not know a single christian at  THAT TIME  who knew the words   "ashkenazi"   and  "sephardi"      yet here was a NEW ARRIVAL  from Medical school in KARACHI-----who was telling me about   "ashkenazi and sephardi jews"  in Israel. 
  Later on I heard more from him ------"INFORMATION"    also part of the  "KNOWLEGE"  base of georgie.      Of course it is possible that he simply studies islamo nazi propaganda


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## ima (Dec 13, 2012)

irosie91 said:


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Was there electricity back then?


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 13, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


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  The Pro- Palestinian Denies they name streets after the Palestinian   and give out Candy to " Honor" the one who is sucessful in killing Israelis and celebrate?  Typical Hypocrisy.  Don't expect anything else


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## ima (Dec 13, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
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But will you still be clapping when Iran develops nukes? hmmm, not so sure. Like I've said, Israel should use this time as the more superior power to make a peace deal, and not just wait for the other side to arm up with nukes.


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## georgephillip (Dec 13, 2012)

Hossfly said:


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"Hasbara is an Hebrew word defined as explanation. The purpose of Hasbara is to explain and educate western people about the Israeli mission."

Gilad Atzmon - Writings - Jonathon Blakeley: A guide to Hasbara trolls

Trolls like you make a hate site like Gitmo look good.
When are you leaving?


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## Hossfly (Dec 13, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> Hossfly said:
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Oh look, Georgie Boy found another Jew who wouldn't mind seeing Israel destroyed.  People like Georgie Boy love those Leftist Jews.  Let's face it, Georgie Boy never heard of the word "hasbara" until he started reading the hate sites.  "Hasbara" is a word that is mentioned on many of them.  Does anyone think that the other posters had even heard of this word until those with the mind set of Georgie Boy started dragging up the word from the hate sites?  I don't think you could go out on the streets of America and find Americans who even heard of this world unless they were participating on message boards and saw it dragged up.  Why should I leave, Georgie Boy.  As I said, my ancestors were here since this country was established while yours were living in tents in some Islamic land.  When are you going back to where you came from since it is obvious that you hate this country.


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## georgephillip (Dec 13, 2012)

"Public diplomacy in Israel (also hasbara) (Hebrew: &#1492;&#1463;&#1505;&#1456;&#1489;&#1464;&#1468;&#1512;&#1464;&#1492; hasbará, 'explaining') refers to public relations efforts to disseminate information about Israel.[1][2] 

"The term is used by the Israeli government and its supporters to describe efforts to explain government policies and promote Israel in the face of negative press, and to counter what they see as delegitimisation of Israel around the world. Hasbara means 'explanation', and is also a euphemism for propaganda."

Wiki: Another hate site for those convinced the "chosen people" can do no wrong.

BTW, some of my ancestors were here before racists like yours' arrived.
Let's face it...Hossie's just another cracker with low self-esteem

Public diplomacy (Israel) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Jos (Dec 13, 2012)

*Megaphone desktop tool*


> The Megaphone desktop tool is a Windows "action alert" tool developed by Give Israel Your United Support (GIYUS) and distributed by World Union of Jewish Students, World Jewish Congress, The Jewish Agency for Israel, World Zionist Organization, StandWithUs, Hasbara fellowships, HonestReporting, and other pro-Israel public relations organizations.


Megaphone desktop tool - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Jos (Dec 13, 2012)

*Hasbara Campus Manual*


> A Hasbara manual for students to use on US univesity campuses is now available online[2]. A summary of the techniques is provided from page 31 onwards:
> 
> Propaganda is used by those who want to communicate in ways that engage the emotions and downplay rationality, in an attempt to promote a certain message.
> 
> ...


Hasbara - SourceWatch


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## Hossfly (Dec 13, 2012)

Jos said:


> *Hasbara Campus Manual*
> 
> 
> > A Hasbara manual for students to use on US univesity campuses is now available online[2]. A summary of the techniques is provided from page 31 onwards:
> ...


Now we are hearing about "hasbara" from Yousef Mohammed, the  Muslim from Iran.  Naturally he never learned that word in Iran, but as soon as he was out and could avidly read the hate sites, it is a favorite word of his.  Meanwhile, Mr. Gooz is going to tell us why the Shiites and Sunnis are still killing each other even centuries after Islam was invented.  This is so much more important than the word "hasbara."  By the way, Mr. Coon, could you tell us, since you are speaking of campuses, why your fellow Muslims are always disrupting the speeches of those they disagree with.  If they did that in the country you come from, their relatives might not see them alive again.


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 13, 2012)

ima said:


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  You mean give in to every Palestinian demand?  Hmmm....  don't think so.   Why can't you tell us just one thing the Palestinians are doing to contribute to the " Peace Negotiations?"  Typical Hypocrite.... There is Nobody home.    Iran INITIATING WW 111?  According to all the Anti- Israel Pro Palestinian posters it was Israel who was SUPPOSED to initiate it.   You guys should all get together to keep your lies straight.


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## Hossfly (Dec 13, 2012)

Jos said:


> *Hasbara Campus Manual*
> 
> 
> > A Hasbara manual for students to use on US univesity campuses is now available online[2]. A summary of the techniques is provided from page 31 onwards:
> ...


I never heard the word "hasberra" until two weeks ago. Is this the Islamist "Word Of The Month"? What does it have to do with Yogiberra if anything?


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## Hossfly (Dec 13, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> "Public diplomacy in Israel (also hasbara) (Hebrew: &#1492;&#1463;&#1505;&#1456;&#1489;&#1464;&#1468;&#1512;&#1464;&#1492; hasbará, 'explaining') refers to public relations efforts to disseminate information about Israel.[1][2]
> 
> "The term is used by the Israeli government and its supporters to describe efforts to explain government policies and promote Israel in the face of negative press, and to counter what they see as delegitimisation of Israel around the world. Hasbara means 'explanation', and is also a euphemism for propaganda."
> 
> ...


And let's face it, Georgie Boy, the way you go on and on and never seem to leave your apartment day or night, weekday or weekend, because you are a mouthpiece for some Muslim organization, not many of us are going to believe you come from anyplace but some Muslim country.  Next you know it, folks, Georgie Boy is going to tell  us his ancestors came over that land bridge and were the first Native Americans.  By the way, Georgie, you can call me a cracker all you want as well as calling many Americans crackers from many parts of this great country (which you hate), but we realize by now how the Muslims are murdering innocent people.  Evidently, Georgie Boy must think the Muslims are the "chosen people" because like many of the Jew haters on here they are not on any other message boards condemning what the Muslims are doing.


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## georgephillip (Dec 13, 2012)

How would you know what other message boards I post on?
The voices in your head?
Your G-d?


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## Hossfly (Dec 13, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> How would you know what other message boards I post on?
> The voices in your head?
> Your G-d?


I would imagine that you would use the same screen name on some other message board as you are using here.  However, I doubt you are on another message board condemning what the Muslims are doing to others even if you were using a different screen name.  One thing, though, is very obvious -- that you don't have any other life other than this message board which is really pathetic inasmuch as you live in a large city where there is plenty to do.  Now tell the voices in your own head to be quiet for a while as you want to walk around your neighborhood to get a little fresh air and see how the people in the neighborhood have decorated for Christmas.  Even if you try to convince us that you are an atheist, surely even you can appreciate the different decorations people put up for Christmas.


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## BecauseIKnow (Dec 13, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> How would you know what other message boards I post on?
> The voices in your head?
> Your G-d?



lol he has this odd conspiracy that everyone posting in favor of the Palestinians is part of a secret Muslim organization....


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## Jos (Dec 14, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > How would you know what other message boards I post on?
> ...



Hossfly has Muslims hiding under his bed!


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## georgephillip (Dec 14, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> georgephillip said:
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> 
> > How would you know what other message boards I post on?
> ...


*Surely you know Christmas is just another lie the rich tell?*


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## georgephillip (Dec 14, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> georgephillip said:
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> > How would you know what other message boards I post on?
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And he thinks his "God" loves Jews almost as much as He loves Americans.
Hope he won't be too disappointed...


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## georgephillip (Dec 14, 2012)

Jos said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
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*Hossie's a closet mullah....who knew?*


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## georgephillip (Dec 14, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> ima said:
> 
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There's no shortage of "Jews" from the Ukraine and Poland at home on the West Bank.
When are the "Treasured People" planning to leave Palestine?
No answer?
Imagine my surprise.


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 14, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > ima said:
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   Who on the Board refers to themselves as the " Treasured People?"
  " Palestine" didn't exist before 1967 and it doesn't now.  

   Tell us exactly what the Palestinians are doing to " contribute" to " Peace Negotiations".    No answer?   Not surprising.   Just more of the Pro- Palestinian Hypocrisy.


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## Hossfly (Dec 14, 2012)

BecauseIKnow said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > How would you know what other message boards I post on?
> ...


Why, Baghdad Bob, if people who are trying to pass themselves off as such great humanitarians really cared about the people in the world, they certainly would be on at least one other message board condemning what the Muslims are doing to those who aren't Muslims.  Of course, we realize that you as a Muslim don't care what your brethren are doing to others so I really don't expect you to be on another message board condemning your own brethren.  By the way, have you come up with one Muslim organization that helps needy people of all religions in the world?


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## ima (Dec 14, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


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Like I've said, Israel should use this time as the more superior power to make a peace deal, and not just wait for the other side to arm up with nukes.


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## docmauser1 (Dec 14, 2012)

georgephillip said:


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Non-sequitur drivel, of course.


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## Hossfly (Dec 14, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> Jos said:
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Why Georgie Boy, I and others have the impression since you never seem to leave your apartment that besides posting on this message board you are working on your sermons at the big mosque in Los Angeles which was funded by a Saudi sheik.  No doubt he is also paying for your apartment since he is so proud at how devoted you are to the cause.  After all, even a Muslim clergyman living in Los Angeles, if he wasn't as devoted as you, would take time out to perhaps see a movie or a play or even sit on a bench at the beach in Santa Monica people watching and getting some fresh air.   So much going on in a big city, and Georgie Boy wouldn't leave his apartment because he is too busy to do anything else besides posting on this board and working on his sermons.


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## Hossfly (Dec 14, 2012)

Jos said:


> BecauseIKnow said:
> 
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No way, Jose. I have cockroach motels under my bed. Fooled ya!


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## ima (Dec 14, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> Jos said:
> 
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You live in a cockroach infested place? BOUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!


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## Hossfly (Dec 14, 2012)

ima said:


> Hossfly said:
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I just told you. Pay attention.


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## ima (Dec 14, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> ima said:
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To what? Your cockroaches? Do you talk to them?


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## docmauser1 (Dec 14, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> _Palestinians are NOT building settlements in Israel_


How so?


georgephillip said:


> _and filling them with Arabs from around the globe._


Indeed, they're busy colonizing the EU - far less chances of getting shot up for felonious activity.


georgephillip said:


> _Palestinians are NOT currently subject to nearly 100 UNSC Resolutions condemning their illegal occupation of Israel._


The chosen palistanians.


georgephillip said:


> _Palestinians are NOT whining about NOT having partners for peace negotiations while stealing the land that Jew-only roads are built on._


Indeed, philistines are just stealing land, of course.


georgephillip said:


> _Heroic Palestinian snipers are NOT using Jew children for target practice._


Indeed, those heroic philistine snipers got shot, of course.


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 14, 2012)

ima said:


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Like I've said, Israel is not going to make all the Concessions and give in to all the Palestinian demands.  Like I've said; We FINALLY have a Pro- Palestinian who ADMITS that the Arabs INITIATES wars with Israel and that it will be Iran NOT Israel who will initiate WW 111. Yet ALL this time we have heard from them that it will be Israel who uses them first.  Such liars they are.       Like Ive said;  Just name ONE thing the Palestinians are doing to contribute to " negotiations"   There will be no answer; There is nobody home


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## georgephillip (Dec 14, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
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"His Majesty's government view with favour the *establishment in Palestine* of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities *in Palestine*, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

Obviously Lord Balfour and His Majesty thought Palestine existed before 1948.

Today's Palestinians have no one to negotiate with since Jews are busy building settlements all across the territories subject to negotiation. If you and I are sitting at a table negotiating the division of a pizza, and I am eating slice after slice before we start, how stupid would you have to be to remain at the table?

Balfour Declaration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## georgephillip (Dec 14, 2012)

docmauser1 said:


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One person:One vote.
Try it, drivel, before you take the big SPLASH.


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 14, 2012)

georgephillip said:


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Dec 14, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


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## AnjelicaT (Dec 14, 2012)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 14, 2012)

AnjelicaT said:


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## AnjelicaT (Dec 14, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


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## docmauser1 (Dec 15, 2012)

georgephillip said:


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Yeah, right. Our honorable georgephillip is an established ignorant drivel and garbage vendor, of course, while the correct answer is in the memorable words of the Palestine Royal Commission report, Jul. 1937, "The only solution of tile problem put forward by the Arab Higher Committee was the immediate establishment of all independent Arab Government, which would deal with the 400,000 Jews now in Palestine as it thought fit.".


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## irosie91 (Dec 15, 2012)

AnjelicaT said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
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## proudveteran06 (Dec 15, 2012)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


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## ima (Dec 15, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> ima said:
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I never said that israel should make all the concessions, I said that as the superior power for now, they should initiate something meaningful instead of waiting for the other side to acquire nukes. Makes sense, no?

Btw, can you name ONE thing that Israel is doing to contribute to negotiation? Like, I dunno, building more settlements in the WB?


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## georgephillip (Dec 15, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 15, 2012)

ima said:


> proudveteran06 said:
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  Can I name ONE thing?  I guess leaving Gaza and being " rewarded" with more Rockets doesn't count in your Pro- Palestinian Mindset.    You have said Israel should make ALL the Concessions and that it NOT going to happen.  He wants the Borders that were Not recognized or respected by the Arabs before the 1967 War, He actually wants some land within Israel connecting Gaza and the W.Bank; Something Israel doesn't have to do since before the 67 War two different Countries owned that land, and of course " Right of Return".   Now WHAT Concessions has Abbas made?  There will not be a response.


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 15, 2012)

georgephillip said:


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## Colin (Dec 15, 2012)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> What is going to happen is Nazi *Israel is going to be wiped off the map and I say good riddance *to the present day  Rogue Nation Israel which today poses the biggest threat to peace in the Middle Peace!



Always amuses me when someone trying to present themselves as someone having concern for others lets their moralistic mask slip and we see them for the sanctimoneous bigot they really are. Your credibility rating just dropped through the floorboards!


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## georgephillip (Dec 15, 2012)

"The fact that the Israel-Palestine conflict grinds on without resolution might appear to be rather strange. For many of the world's conflicts, it is difficult even to conjure up a feasible settlement. 

"In this case, it is not only possible, but there is near universal agreement on its basic contours: a two-state settlement along the internationally recognized (pre-June 1967) borders -- with *'minor and mutual modifications,*' to adopt official U.S. terminology before Washington departed from the international community in the mid-1970s."

Right of Return doesn't mean every Arab illegally evicted from their homes, businesses, and bank accounts in 1948 is entitled to live inside the Green Line today. It does mean every Arab so victimized is deserving of just compensation for their loss.

Currently, Jews rule over all the land between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River yet there a million more Arabs than Jews living on that land. 

Jews wil soon have to choose between living in a democratic state(s) or a Jewish State.

A Middle East Peace That Could Happen (But Won't): In Washington-Speak, "Palestinian State" Means "Fried Chicken"


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## ima (Dec 15, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> ima said:
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Show me where I said that. You can't, now stfu you asswipe.


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## docmauser1 (Dec 15, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> _"Mandatory Palestine blahblah was a geopolitical entity under British administration, carved out of Ottoman Southern Syria after World War I._


Not a separate state with legal borders like our vendors of drivel here would like us to believe, of course. Kewl.


georgephillip said:


> _"British civil administration in Palestine operated from 1920 until 1948."_


During which Winnie Churchill hacked about 75% of the mandate palestine off as Transjordan to the hashemite royal family, when the latter got their asses kicked out of the Arabian peninsula by the al saud and wahhabi tribes, of course. For all intents and purposes it's the palistanian Philistinia for all the philistines.


georgephillip said:


> _In 1948 one third of the total population of Mandatory Palestine imposed a Jewish State by force of arms upon a majority of Palestinians, some of whom still hold deeds to land their families had lived on for generations._


In memorable words of the Palestine Royal Commission report, Jul. 1937, "The only solution of tile problem put forward by the Arab Higher Committee was the immediate establishment of all independent Arab Government, which would deal with the 400,000 Jews now in Palestine as it thought fit.". That is, arabs shouldn't have tried to impose a major arab immigrant state on jews by force of arms, of course.


georgephillip said:


> _Since Israel still controls its the airspace, coastal waters, and "borders", the Jews have never left Gaza, as they just proved once again by killing scores of civilians to prop up Bibi in the upcoming elections._


Funny, so, hamastan philistines have never left Israel!


georgephillip said:


> _chomsky.info_


Any more monomaniacal prophets?


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## georgephillip (Dec 15, 2012)

*Only you...and you're anonymous.*


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 15, 2012)

ima said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > ima said:
> ...



  I have asked you what Concessions Abbas has made and there has been no response. I have told you what Abbas is Demanding, he is NOT going to get it, and there has been no response.  I have asked you what " Compromises" Abbas has made and there has been no response.  All I have heard from you is Israel  you ASSWIPE


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 15, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> "The fact that the Israel-Palestine conflict grinds on without resolution might appear to be rather strange. For many of the world's conflicts, it is difficult even to conjure up a feasible settlement.
> 
> "In this case, it is not only possible, but there is near universal agreement on its basic contours: a two-state settlement along the internationally recognized (pre-June 1967) borders -- with *'minor and mutual modifications,*' to adopt official U.S. terminology before Washington departed from the international community in the mid-1970s."
> 
> ...



   Arabs/ Abbas  are not demanding Israel make ALL concessions?  Another lie. They are DEMANDING " Right of Return" for anyone who wants to go which obviously now includes generations.  That is a good part of the " Saudi Peace Plan"   Israel is not going to go back to Borders that the Arabs never recognized or respected before and be denied access to E. Jerusalem while the Palestinians have free reign.  It's that simple. After 1948 Jordan was supposed to allow Israelis to have access to their Holy Sites but of course were denied this.  This will never happen again.


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## irosie91 (Dec 15, 2012)

I support complete compansation for all arabs and all jews and all hindus   displaced in conflicts-------christians too-----and-----even homosexuals


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## ima (Dec 16, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> ima said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...



I don't know what Abbas said, that's not what I'm talking about. I said that Israel should use its dominant force position to make a worthwhile peace offer and not just sit around waiting for the other side to nuke up.


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 16, 2012)

ima said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > ima said:
> ...



   You  should learn how to read.  Abbas has made it very clear that he will not accept anything except the 67 Borders and " Right of Return".  This is something that everyone ( except you) knows. That is not going to happen.   Iran " nuking" up?  So you admit that the Arabs will start WW 111 with Israel yet it's Israel who is causing all the trouble in that region?   lol   Very sick, demented Pro- Palestinian " thinking".    Iran INITIATES the War with Israel yet it's Israel's fault.  Leave it to a Pro- Palestinian


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 16, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> ima said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...





ne·go·ti·ate/n&#601;&#712;g&#333;SH&#275;&#716;&#257;t/  VerbTry to reach an agreement or compromise by discussion with others.Eg: "his government's willingness to negotiate

The above is the definition of " negotiation".  Ask the Pro- Palestinian what Abbas has put forth; What he is willing to do and there will be no response.  Consider the source


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## ima (Dec 16, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > ima said:
> ...



I'm not talking about the arabs, I'm saying that Israel, before the arabs get nukes, should make a meaningful offer of peace, which they've never done. They just keep taking more land.


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 16, 2012)

ima said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...



 Another lie Pro- Palestinians tell.  Israel grabs " more land?"   It seems she " forgot" that Rocket attacks actually increased after Israel left Gaza.  " Meaningul offer?"  67 Borders that were never recognized or respected plus " Right of Return?'   lol   Only in your dreams.  Ask what proposals Abbas has put forth and there will be no response.   VERY VERY SLOWLY read the Websters definition of " Negotiations"  .


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## P F Tinmore (Dec 16, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> ima said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...





> Abbas has made it very clear that he will not accept anything except the 67 Borders...



That is a huge concession. Hamas wants to go back to 48 borders. Of course those are still the official borders.


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## docmauser1 (Dec 16, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> _That is a huge concession. Hamas wants to go back to 48 borders. Of course those are still the official borders._


Of course not.


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## irosie91 (Dec 16, 2012)

docmauser1 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > _That is a huge concession. Hamas wants to go back to 48 borders. Of course those are still the official borders._
> ...





what  '48 borders?


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## Hossfly (Dec 16, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > ima said:
> ...


Show us the official 1948 map, Tinmore.


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## georgephillip (Dec 16, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > "The fact that the Israel-Palestine conflict grinds on without resolution might appear to be rather strange. For many of the world's conflicts, it is difficult even to conjure up a feasible settlement.
> ...


2013 in the Holy Land.
Five million Jews rule six million Arabs living between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River.
Jewish State or Democratic State; what's your choice?


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## P F Tinmore (Dec 16, 2012)

irosie91 said:


> docmauser1 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Post a 1948 map and you will see them..


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## irosie91 (Dec 16, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> irosie91 said:
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> 
> > docmauser1 said:
> ...



The  1948 map shows  TRUCE LINES  ----not borders.    Are you calling the truce lines "borders"?


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## P F Tinmore (Dec 16, 2012)

irosie91 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > irosie91 said:
> ...



The truce lines are 1949. Post a 1948 map of Israel. Post a map of Israel without the truce lines.


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## irosie91 (Dec 16, 2012)

what for?     "borders"  were never determined      check out   "islamic"  geography books          simply ---no israel.      how about a  300 BC map of saudi arabia?


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## georgephillip (Dec 16, 2012)

*"In 1949*, Israel signed separate armistices with Egypt on 24 February, Lebanon on 23 March, Jordan on 3 April, and Syria on 20 July. 

"The Armistice Demarcation Lines, as set by the agreements, saw the territory under Israeli control encompassing approximately three-quarters of the prior British administered Mandate as it stood after Transjordan's independence in 1946. 

"Israel occupied territories of about one-third more than was allocated to the Jewish State under the UN partition proposal.[155] 

"After the armistices, *Israel had control over 78% of the territory comprising former Mandatory Palestine[156] or some 8,000 square miles* (21,000 km2), including the entire Galilee and Jezreel Valley in the north, whole Negev in south, West Jerusalem and the coastal plain in the center."

1948 Arab


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## irosie91 (Dec 16, 2012)

oh  good-----Israel had a very large influx of people at that time----lots from 
islamo nazi shit holes-----and,  of course,   all the survivors of the siege of East Jerusalem


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 16, 2012)

irosie91 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > irosie91 said:
> ...



    The Pro- Palestinian is willing to do that. This makes it even better for Israel.  NO ONE even in the U.N. is demanding that Israel go baclk to the 1948 " Borders"( Not really) that haven't been accepted since 1948.


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## irosie91 (Dec 16, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
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> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...




 tinnie has a theory-----COUNTRY BORDERS were determined by allah on the FIRST DAY 
 of   "CREATION"    including the  endless lands conferred upon the  UMMAH as  "MUSLIM 
 LAND"          of course that includes ALL OF THE MIDDLE EAST-----and ---the "borders" 
 are  IMMUTABLE   ------except for Texas---which seems to have changed its borders 
 several times in the  7000 year history----california and Idaho,  too


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 16, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> *"In 1949*, Israel signed separate armistices with Egypt on 24 February, Lebanon on 23 March, Jordan on 3 April, and Syria on 20 July.
> 
> "The Armistice Demarcation Lines, as set by the agreements, saw the territory under Israeli control encompassing approximately three-quarters of the prior British administered Mandate as it stood after Transjordan's independence in 1946.
> 
> ...



  The " Armistice Agreements" that the Arabs did not recognize or respect?  Now, THAT is funny.....lol


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## P F Tinmore (Dec 16, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > *"In 1949*, Israel signed separate armistices with Egypt on 24 February, Lebanon on 23 March, Jordan on 3 April, and Syria on 20 July.
> ...



Which Arabs are you talking about?


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## Hossfly (Dec 16, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...


Mongolian Arabs, Wise Ass.


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## P F Tinmore (Dec 16, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...



There was a truce between the Israelis and the Lebanese, Syrians, Jordanians, and Egyptians.

There was no truce with the Palestinians.


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## irosie91 (Dec 16, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...





There were no   "palestinian"   arab muslims back then   tinnie     As to the TRUCE  ---truce lines are not borders and your fellow filth decided NOT TO RECOGNIZE the existence of  Israel-----read that      "THE STINK AND FILTH AND PERVERSITY OF ISLAMIC IMPERIALISM"


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## P F Tinmore (Dec 16, 2012)

irosie91 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



Israel exists inside Palestine's borders.

That is the root of the conflict.


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## irosie91 (Dec 16, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
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> > P F Tinmore said:
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The root of the conflict is the islamo nazi pig lie that   "PALESTINE"   is  
"MUSLIM LAND"    when   IN FACT   "PALESTINE"  is simply an alternate name for 
 ISRAEL JUDEA     and  ALSO  the fact that the filthy IMPERIALIST DOGS of  arabia ---did 
invade and pillage and rape and murder in PALESTINE for a time which according to the perversity of their  "CREED"   renders the entire land the ETERNAL POSSESSION OF THE FILTH AND STENCH OF SHARIAH ADHERENT ASS LICKERS OF THE RAPIST PIG OF MECCA


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## Hossfly (Dec 16, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Check out this info, Tinnie.

Early History of Palestine


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 16, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > ima said:
> ...



  Another stupid remark from the Pro- Palestinian.  Since when does Abbas take his orders from Hamas? Now we know who is REALLY in charge.    The ONLY reason he is not demanding this is because even he knows that even  the U.N. and the U.S. will not stand behind him.  Leave it to the stupid Pro- Palestinian not to understand.       

 So; Tell us EXACTLY what " compromises, concessions" he has made. The answer is " none"


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 16, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...




ne·go·ti·ate/n&#601;&#712;g&#333;SH&#275;&#716;&#257;t/  
Verb
Try to reach an agreement or compromise by discussion with others.Eg: "his government's willingness to negotiate". 

 The above is the definition of " negotiation".  Ask the Pro- Palestinian what" compromises "Abbas has made and there will be no response.  There never is.


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## P F Tinmore (Dec 16, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > irosie91 said:
> ...



Thanks for the link.



> *What was the history of Palestine between Biblical times and the modern era?*
> 
> The land of Palestine has been populated by the nation known as Palestinians since historical times. These people are known to have been religiously diverse always with Muslim as its majority, living peacefully with fellow Jews, Christians and Druze people. However, with the Zionist movement of 20th century, a large number of Jews immigrated to Palestine from many parts of the Europe which increased the Jewish population drastically, leading to conflicts between Arabs and Jews.


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## irosie91 (Dec 16, 2012)

LOL    poor tinnie  >>>>  "PALESTINE HAS BEEN POPULATED MOSTLY WITH MUSLIMS THRU ITS ENTIRE HISTORY"------the man had lost his mind 

               got any more revisionist history    tinnie baby?     well--its true that 
                    some Bahai and zoroastrians have escaped islamo pig 
                         oppression and now live in Israel---so that does make 
                              the land religiously DIVERSE


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## irosie91 (Dec 16, 2012)

More news for tinnie----a land A LOT MORE RELIGIOUSLY DIVERSE 
    than palestine---HISTORICALLY ----was   ARABIA ----
          That is so because arabia is actually on a trade root and 
              harbored people from east and west---from hindus to 
                   zoroastrians to jews to christians and some---misc.

        then  ISLAM happened----now just to be a citizen of that land one 
          MUST be muslim and just sitting a part bench reading a bible 
              IS A CRIME       what a pile of shit they made out of that land!!!!!!


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## georgephillip (Dec 17, 2012)

*One that's above criticism, apparently:*

"The other day I tweeted an article that reported on a rather horrible story.  *It seems that the Israeli government gives African women drugs that keep them from reproducing.* 

"I think if this story had been about Canada, Korea, France, or Brazil people would have read it.  The conversation would not have immediately shifted to my alleged hatred of all Canadians. 

"Since it was about Israel, some people chose to announce that I hated Jews.  

"Such a response is not only baseless and nonsensical, but it *shifts attention to me and away from the story*, which in the end isn't seen. 

"Now, I don't know any more about that story than what I've read at that website (the website of a Jewish organization, as it happens).  The report may be accurate or not.  Israeli newspapers seem to report it as fully established, neither doubted nor challenged.  

"The story at least seems to merit investigation.  

"The point is that nobody told me it was inaccurate (news that would have delighted me).  

"Instead, they told me that I was anti-Semitic."

*Anyone criticizing the "Treasured People" is ALWAYS anti-Semitic.* 

How to Criticize the Israeli Government | Let's Try Democracy


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## sealadaigh (Dec 17, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> *One that's above criticism, apparently:*
> 
> "The other day I tweeted an article that reported on a rather horrible story.  *It seems that the Israeli government gives African women drugs that keep them from reproducing.*
> 
> ...



good article, good link, george. thanks.


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## ima (Dec 17, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> ima said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...



I guess you just can't understand simple things, can you even tell me what I was trying to say? hint: it has nothing to do with the arabs or Abbas. And I'm not pro-Palestinian, I'm pro peace, I want israel to make a peace offer so it doesn't get nuked.

PS the Israelis just built more settlements in the WB, that's called taking more land. Get it?


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## P F Tinmore (Dec 17, 2012)

irosie91 said:


> LOL    poor tinnie  >>>>  "PALESTINE HAS BEEN POPULATED MOSTLY WITH MUSLIMS THRU ITS ENTIRE HISTORY"------the man had lost his mind
> 
> got any more revisionist history    tinnie baby?     well--its true that
> some Bahai and zoroastrians have escaped islamo pig
> ...



I merely posted a passage from a link that Hossfly posted.

Many people have come and gone in Palestine over the centuries. Those who stayed and put down roots are the Palestinians of today. Not much different than any other place on earth.


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## georgephillip (Dec 17, 2012)

reabhloideach said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > *One that's above criticism, apparently:*
> ...


Few anti-war testimonies are more elegant than those that come from soldiers who awaken:

"The Palestinians didn't know there were soldiers behind them, and the soldiers would just spray their legs. . . . *His one goal was to lure Palestinian children, just to cut off their legs.*"

"We had a commander in the unit who would just say in these words, . . . 'I want bodies.  That's what I want.'"

"'You're not ranked by arrests -- *you're ranked by the number of people you kill*.'"

How to Criticize the Israeli Government | Let's Try Democracy


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## RoccoR (Dec 17, 2012)

ima, proudveteran06,  _et al,_

I will stipulate that the "Occupied Territories" and the administration of them, the post-'73 conflict ground control, and the post-'67 conflict ground control contain legitimate grievances on behalf of certain parties.  The establishment of Israeli settlements inside the "Occupied Territories" _(beyond the '67 borders)_ are a fundamental problem. 



ima said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > ima said:
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

PART I:

Having so stipulated: --- It must be equally as understood that the expansion of Israeli territorial control is directly associated with and attributed to the multinational military threat directly presented by the Arab Middle Eastern nations.  That post conflict control was not unilaterally a result or independent action on the part of Israel.  It was an outcome and consequence of Arab Aggression.​
PART II:

Both sides have legitimate concerns.  Our friend "ima" is correct, in that the expansion consequence must be elastic --- it must spring back to the 1967 Borders.  But "proudveteran06" is also correct in that there must be a meaningful dialog and good faith negotiation between the parities to resolve the issues with a lasting peace as an outcome.​
Nuclear Weapons:

Nuclear Weapons is not a solution.  Should the Arab World, in any of its forms, attack Israel with a nuclear weapon, the consequences would be incalculable.  Everything in the Middle East of value will be put at risk.  The retribution it would trigger - would be beyond imagination; Mecca, Qom, Damascus, Cairo, Riyadh, and Tehran --- all at risk of being destroyed.  _*(Imagine!)*_

The weaponization of the Middle East is not a solution.  Nuclear weapons present an unacceptable risk, even if the Arab nations win the destruction of Israel.  The total destruction outcomes are not something the Arab world would want in exchange.  No Arab nation would risk such an outcome set, unless they are _(the Arab World)_ is actually suicidal.  In which case, the question becomes what does the world do with a region infected by insanity?​
Yes, the honest negotiation is a key.  But each side must be willing to speak with an authoritative and meaningful voice.  And this is a drawback on the Arab side, as they have no single voice, no one that represents their side of the grievance process.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Hossfly (Dec 17, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > LOL    poor tinnie  >>>>  "PALESTINE HAS BEEN POPULATED MOSTLY WITH MUSLIMS THRU ITS ENTIRE HISTORY"------the man had lost his mind
> ...


I read everything in the article I linked. I knew when I posted that Tinnie would pick up on one statement and ignore the rest. Did Tinnie read the whole article? Of course he didnt, but others did.


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## irosie91 (Dec 17, 2012)

oh gee     "THEY PUT DOWN ROOTS"      yes----kinda like gypsies 
   in merry old england who lived in encampments near streams 
   and rivers--------were they given TITLE TO THAT LAND by 
   THE KING?           Tinnie has already told us that any  ARAB-
    MUSLIM who lived on land in  "palestine" for two years OWNS 
    the place      but jews who lived in lands later invaded by the dogs 
    of  arabia--------- FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS  ----own nothing


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 17, 2012)

RoccoR said:


> ima, proudveteran06,  _et al,_
> 
> I will stipulate that the "Occupied Territories" and the administration of them, the post-'73 conflict ground control, and the post-'67 conflict ground control contain legitimate grievances on behalf of certain parties.  The establishment of Israeli settlements inside the "Occupied Territories" _(beyond the '67 borders)_ are a fundamental problem.
> 
> ...



    The Pro- Palestinian is ADMITTING that Iran will INITIATE WW 111 with Israel but Israel is the agressor?   That is the Pro- Palestinian mindset.    

       The " Saudi Peace Plan" calls for the 67 Borders that Israel is never going to go back to plus " Right of Return"   The Pro- Palestinian is claiming Iran will INITIATE  WW 111 over this?    Let them.... Nothing Israel can do about it.


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 17, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > ima, proudveteran06,  _et al,_
> ...


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## Hossfly (Dec 17, 2012)

For those wishing to see the Dead Dea Scrolls in the Dallas/Ft Worth area this month:

"Dead Sea Scrolls & the Bible" Deal of the Day | Groupon Fort Worth


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## irosie91 (Dec 17, 2012)

hoss    islamic revisionists have decided that the   DEAD SEA SCROLLS    are a forgery-----uhm..... the "zionists"  did it         ask sherri-----she should know the party-line


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## docmauser1 (Dec 17, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> _"The Armistice Demarcation Lines, as set by the agreements, saw the territory under Israeli control encompassing approximately three-quarters of the prior British administered Mandate as it stood after Transjordan's independence in 1946._


In other words 75% of the original mandate had been allocated for arab grab, but arabs and their drivel distributors bitch about 3/4 of what remained. Mucho greedy.


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## docmauser1 (Dec 17, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> _"The Palestinians didn't know there were soldiers behind them, and the soldiers would just spray their legs. . . . His one goal was to lure Palestinian children, just to cut off their legs." "We had a commander in the unit who would just say in these words, . . . 'I want bodies.  That's what I want.'""'You're not ranked by arrests -- you're ranked by the number of people you kill.'" davidswanson.org How to Criticize the Israeli Government | Let's Try Democracy_


Should've been named "Let's Try Hashish", of course.


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## RoccoR (Dec 17, 2012)

irosie91, _et al,_

I think nearly everyone sees through this.  If the "Dead Sea Scrolls" are a fraud, then it was a fraud perpetrated by the Arab on the world.  It was the Bedouin's that originally found the jars and sold them for money.

But the scrolls mean nothing relative to the Arab/Israeli dispute.



irosie91 said:


> hoss    islamic revisionists have decided that the   DEAD SEA SCROLLS    are a forgery-----uhm..... the "zionists"  did it         ask sherri-----she should know the party-line


*(COMMENT)*

It is all about dialog.  While there is a system by which the Israelis can select formal negotiators on their side, their is no such system for the Palestinians _(whether we speak of Gaza or the West Bank)_ to select a negotiation team that speaks with authority.

Thus, the Palestinian, as a people, have not demonstrated that they want peace.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## docmauser1 (Dec 17, 2012)

RoccoR said:


> _The establishment of Israeli settlements inside the "Occupied Territories" (beyond the '67 borders) are a fundamental problem._


For those smuggling and marketing occupational, of course.
Hoda Tawfik of the Al Ahram asked James Baker in the Mideast Insight symposium, that took place in Washington on May 4, 1998, 
"What do you think is right? That these are occupied Arab territories and not disputed territories?"
James Baker replied:
"They're clearly disputed territories. That's what Resolutions 242 and 338 are all about. They are clearly disputed territories."
"'67 borders" was a good joke too, bth..


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## RoccoR (Dec 17, 2012)

docmauser1,  _et al,_

I don't think that anyone wants to challenge the integrity of James Baker, for his efforts over a decade ago.  But none-the-less, he was furthering a failed diplomatic approach.  And this posture (more than a decade old), demonstrated that the US was not an honest broker for peace or seeking an "equitable" settlement.



docmauser1 said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > _The establishment of Israeli settlements inside the "Occupied Territories" (beyond the '67 borders) are a fundamental problem._
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

I think nearly everyone that understands anything about the dispute between the Israelis and the various opposing factions on the side of the Palestinians, knows that - "in part" - the territorial rule is a integral component in the equation.  Now it is not the only key issue, but certainly a major area for discussion.

Probably another major competing component - is the internal struggle for power and influence between the various opposing factions that claim to be on the side of the Palestinians and represent them.  Answering the question as to who speaks for the Palestinians is a difficult proposition.  One cannot expect to gain an equitable payout if there is no one to speak for them.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## docmauser1 (Dec 17, 2012)

RoccoR said:


> docmauser1 said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


Cool, _a failed diplomatic approach_, _the US was not an honest broker for peace or seeking an "equitable" settlement_, we've read this drivel before, of course.


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## P F Tinmore (Dec 17, 2012)

RoccoR said:


> docmauser1,  _et al,_
> 
> I don't think that anyone wants to challenge the integrity of James Baker, for his efforts over a decade ago.  But none-the-less, he was furthering a failed diplomatic approach.  And this posture (more than a decade old), demonstrated that the US was not an honest broker for peace or seeking an "equitable" settlement.
> 
> ...



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72ai-Udti1M]On The Map with Avi Lewis: Gaza Coup d&#39;Etat? - YouTube[/ame]


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 17, 2012)

ima said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > ima said:
> ...



  Still waiting to hear about Abbas proposals which do NOT incluse the 67 Borders, " Right of Return" , the compromises he has made. No answer because there is nobody home.  Get it?


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## ima (Dec 17, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> ima said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...



MASSIVE DEFLECTION ALERT!!!! You don't want peace, show me where Israel ever made a proper offer. If you were in the IDF, then no wonder they can't beat Hamas.


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## irosie91 (Dec 17, 2012)

ima said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > ima said:
> ...



 Ima----the only offer that could be remotely acceptable to  the UMMAH----would be 
if Israel  agreed to  be pillaged and raped  ----with lots of murders thrown in---and 
enslavments and then  SIGNED THE PACT OF OMAR        for some  strange reason  
Israeli leaders have refused


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## ima (Dec 17, 2012)

irosie91 said:


> ima said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...



So basically Israel doesn't even want peace, is that what you're saying?


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## irosie91 (Dec 17, 2012)

ima said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > ima said:
> ...



well>>>>



Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace-- but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field!



Israel did not want  PAX ROMANA     -----
     or even   PAX   PERSIA   

    and certainly does not want    DAR AL ISLAM


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 17, 2012)

ima said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > ima said:
> ...



  MASSIVE DEFLECTION ALERT!!!!!     Being the Pro- Palestinian that you are you choose to " forget" that Israel left Gaza and was immediately " rewarded" with more Rockets.  After Israel withdrew what did Abbas do?  The answer is " nothing".   Show me where Abbas ever made a proper " Counter- offer".   Google your " proof" You can't.  

Not my fault you have a problem with reading comphrension.  Abbas has made it very clear he will NOT accept anything short of 67 Borders which were NEVER recognized and " Right of Return".  


We cannot recognize Israels legitimacy, the Hamas leader added. From the sea to the river, from north to south, we will not give up any part of Palestine  it is our country, our right and our homeland.

This is a recent statement .  In your Pro- Palestinian mindset this is " negotiation ".   To the Israelis it is not.


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 17, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> ima said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...







  The Pro- Palestinian wants to know what Israel has offered.


Fact Sheet:

 Abbas is the Obstacle to Peace

(Updated February 2012)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Read All Fact Sheets | Abbas: Table of Contents

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 Israel, the United States and most of the international community were pleased when Mahmoud Abbas was elected in 2005 as President of the Palestinian Authority (PA). Expectations were high that Abbas would radically alter the policies of his predecessor, consolidate his power, reform the PA, and put an end to years of senseless violence that had claimed many innocent lives on both sides and had left Palestinians with a feeling of hopelessness. 

Abbas, however, has done little since then to deserve the faith the international community placed in him. 

Rather than taking tangible steps toward peace, Abbas has done nothing but bypass and evade bilateral negotiations with Israel while incessantly repeating the longstanding irredentist demands of the PLO. Moreover, Abbas' insistence that Israeli intransigence - not Palestinian - has stalled the peace process, displays an incredibly narrow and hazy grasp on recent history. Abbas's power, prestige and popularity have dramatically weakened over the years, both internationally and amongst the Palestinian people, and the evidence is overwhelming that he is the biggest obstacle to making peace with Israel. 

Abbas's refusal in both January 2012 and October 2011 to discuss tangible peace initiatives with Israel through talks facilitated by Jordanian King Abdullah and the Mideast Quartet - a grouping of Russia, the EU, US and UN - barely made news headlines. Likewise, his requirement that Israel meet a set of strict preconditions before negotiations - including a settlement construction freeze, acceptance of a Palestinian state based on pre-1967 lines, and the release of Palestinian prisoners not included in the Gilad Shalit exchange deal - was also mostly excused by an international media all too quick to make excuses for the Palestinian leader. 

These recent refusals are far from the first times that the Abbas government has responded to Israeli peace initiatives with blank stares and impossible demands. In fact, they reflect a longstanding trend of evading negotiations that Abbas has maintained from his predecessor Yasser Arafat. Despite at least three successive Israeli administrations voicing support for compromise, Abbas has shown no willingness to meet Israel halfway.

 In 2005, when Israeli PM Ariel Sharon ordered the evacuation of all Israeli civilian and military personnel from the Gaza Strip, Abbas had an opportunity to announce that he would support the end of occupation and would begin to build the infrastructure of a state. Instead, he emphatically opposed the withdrawal, preferring occupation to a position where Palestinians could actually enjoy independence. Abbas, however, was given the benefit of the doubt by external analysts because of his relatively moderate tone.

 Abbas wasted yet another golden opportunity for peace in 2008. That year, Israeli PM Ehud Olmert made an offer for peace so overt that US Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice called it "amazing" and warned that "Yitzhak Rabin had been killed for offering far less." Olmert's offer called for Israeli withdrawal from approximately 94% of the West Bank, the creation of a pasasge from the West Bank to Gaza, and the equal "swapping" of land so that Israel could annex its major settlement blocs. Olmert even proposed to divide Jerusalem and absorb a few thousand Palestinian refugees. Abbas, though, refused to consummate the deal. As Israeli daily Haaretz noted, "aficionados of the Palestinians again found a million and one reasons why the peace-loving Palestinian leader had refused the offer." 

In 2009, Abbas again refused to negotiate, this time with new Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, and rejected the Israeli leader's offer to immediately resume talks without preconditions. Perfidiously playing the game of diplomacy, Abbas's chief negotiator Saeb Erekat called on the Arab countries to suspend the Arab peace initiative and called on the international community to isolate Netanyahu for sabotaging the peace process. Abbas, meanwhile, said he hoped the Obama Administration would force Netanyahu out of office and declared his willingness to wait years until that happened. 

In 2010, Abbas made clear that he refused to even sit in the same room with the Israelis and the Obama administration had to levy all of its political power just to pressure the Palestinians into "proximity talks" with U.S. special envoy George Mitchell. Not surprisingly, these talks yielded little progress. Abbas's senior aide, Tayeb Abdel Rahim, said that Israel's request to launch direct negotiations was unacceptable. Even after Israel placed a ten-month moratorium on settlement construction in the West Bank, Abbas refused to sit with the Israeli leaders.

In 2011, Abbas finally took tangible steps in the peace process - only in the wrong direction. His political party, Fatah, declared war on normalization with Israel and discounted peace talks as useless. Later, Abbas agreed to a reconciliation agreement with Hamas despite the fact that it is an internationally recognized terrorist organization and vows to never negotiate with Israel. And, in September, Abbas tried to completely bypass negotiations once and for all, with the tacit support of the international community, by officially requesting that the United Nations recognize the independence of a unilaterally declared Palestinian state. 

Mahmoud Abbas has consistently refused to negotiate a deal now with three different Israeli prime ministers and there is no reason to expect that a change in Israeli leadership would make him any less intransigent. Abbas has proven time and again that he is either incapable or unwilling to deliver on any agreement, yet despite this fact, Israel has repeatedly been asked by external actors to make gestures to the Palestinians. 

Not surprisingly, no offer has ever been sufficient. If Israel releases prisoners, it is not enough; if Israel agrees to withdraw troops or dismantle checkpoints, it makes no impression on Abbas.

The United States and the international community continue to place all their faith in a man whose track record suggests that he will remain the principal obstacle to any progress in the peace process. Rather than continuing to pressure Israel to make concessions, it is past time to look and work for a Palestinian leader who will respect not only the hopes of Israel but the wishes of his own people, the majority of whom would prefer to live in peace rather than continue to pursue a futile and endless strategy of "resistance."


  The " Arab Peace Initiative" that is spoken about has to do with the 67 Lines that were never recognized or respected plus " Right of Return".  Someone please explain this to the Pro- Palestinian who has a problem with reading comphrension


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 17, 2012)

irosie91 said:


> ima said:
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## P F Tinmore (Dec 18, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


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No link, but it reads like an Israeli propaganda site.


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## RoccoR (Dec 18, 2012)

docmauser1,  _et al,_

Suggesting that the US diplomatic intervention was less than successful has often placed me at odds with the pro-US discussion group members.



docmauser1 said:


> Cool, _a failed diplomatic approach_, _the US was not an honest broker for peace or seeking an "equitable" settlement_, we've read this drivel before, of course.[/font]


*(COMMENT)*

So I take it - that it is your position that the US diplomatic effort has been successful; and that, US is perceived to be an honest broker and has offered mediated settlements which would have prevented Israeli expansion.

If this was the case, how come the dispute is still ongoing?  

How do you define success?

If the effort does not have an outcome of peace, is it successful?  
It the effort doesn't end in an equitable settlement, then is it successful?

It has been more than half a century that the US has engaged in the process.  In that time, has the US strengthened it ties in the Middle East?  Does any nation in the Middle East, Persian Gulf, or North Africa consider the US a positive force for peace in the region?

Most Respectfully,
R


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## P F Tinmore (Dec 18, 2012)

RoccoR said:


> docmauser1,  _et al,_
> 
> Suggesting that the US diplomatic intervention was less than successful has often placed me at odds with the pro-US discussion group members.
> 
> ...



The preconditions set by Israel and the US make negotiations useless.


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## ima (Dec 18, 2012)

Hey vet, what moronic army would let you in? Probably one that can't win a war, like the US army or the IDF. Which is it?


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 18, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


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   Anytime I post something you post the above. Anytime I supply the link there is no response.  Perfect example; You wanted the link where Abbas stated No Jews in " Palestine" and I gave it to you   As usual there was no response. Don't believe the above?  Google it yourself then.   You won't because you don't have the Guts.


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 18, 2012)

ima said:


> Hey vet, what moronic army would let you in? Probably one that can't win a war, like the US army or the IDF. Which is it?




  Hey, you asshole; Still waiting for you to tell us what compromises and concessions Abbas has made.  Give them the proof they ask for  and they ignore it.    All Pro- Palestinians have are Big Mouths.


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## georgephillip (Dec 18, 2012)

docmauser1 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > _"The Armistice Demarcation Lines, as set by the agreements, saw the territory under Israeli control encompassing approximately three-quarters of the prior British administered Mandate as it stood after Transjordan's independence in 1946._
> ...


1948 Mandate Palestine.
650,000 Jews.
1.2 MILLION Arabs.
Jewish State?
Suicide!


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## georgephillip (Dec 18, 2012)

docmauser1 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > _"The Palestinians didn't know there were soldiers behind them, and the soldiers would just spray their legs. . . . His one goal was to lure Palestinian children, just to cut off their legs." "We had a commander in the unit who would just say in these words, . . . 'I want bodies.  That's what I want.'""'You're not ranked by arrests -- you're ranked by the number of people you kill.'" davidswanson.org How to Criticize the Israeli Government | Let's Try Democracy_
> ...


*Calling all (kosher) stoners!*

"[T]he brigade commander . . . briefs us, '*Any kid you see with a stone, you can shoot at him*.' Like, shoot to kill. A stone!"

"_t's unbelieva..."

You would never kill a kid for throwing a rock...
Right, drivel?

How to Criticize the Israeli Government | Let's Try Democracy_


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## P F Tinmore (Dec 18, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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> Abbas stated No Jews in " Palestine" and I gave it to you ...



No you didn't.


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## ima (Dec 18, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> ima said:
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> > Hey vet, what moronic army would let you in? Probably one that can't win a war, like the US army or the IDF. Which is it?
> ...



So what loser army lets an imbecile like you in? I bet you took a lot of group showers. 

I'm for peace, I think Israel should make a serious offer if they don't want to get nuked. Soon.


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 18, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


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  Yes I did . Go back on the board.


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 18, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


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Abbas' Palestine: No Jews Allowed 

Don't know if this was the one ( there are a few of them)


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 18, 2012)

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Abbas&#8217; Palestine: No Jews Allowed



May 30th, 2011 at 11:53 pm Emmanuel Navon | 36 Comments |

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&#8220;So now here is the question&#8221; Netanyahu cleverly asked in his masterly address to the US Congress.  &#8220;If the benefits of peace with the Palestinians are so clear, why has peace eluded us?&#8221;  Netanyahu&#8217;s answer to his own rhetorical question was correct: the Palestinian leadership has always refused, and continues to refuse, to sign a peace agreement that entails the acceptance and permanence of the Jewish state, regardless of its borders.  Hence the PA&#8217;s rejection of the offers by Ehud Barack (in 2000) and by Ehud Olmert (in 2008) to establish a Palestinian state on virtually the entire West Bank and Gaza.  Arafat and Abbas said no, because they were asked to abandon the fantasy of invading Israel with the descendants of the 1948 Arab refugees, because they refused to recognize the Jewish past of the Temple Mount, and because they would not commit to ending the conflict after reaching statehood.

So then here is another question.  If Abbas refused to establish a Palestinian state within borders that were practically identical to the 1949 armistice lines, why would he accept to establish a Palestinian state on a smaller territory in order for Israel to have defensible borders?  Those who claim that Israel will eventually achieve peace by keeping offering the Palestinians what they&#8217;ve rejected many times are a lively example of Einstein&#8217;s definition of insanity (&#8220;doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results&#8221.  And those who expect the Palestinians to agree to a downgraded version of what they rejected in the past somehow reenact the famous spat between Winston Churchill and Lady Astor (&#8220;Winston, if you were my husband, I&#8217;d poison your tea &#8230; Nancy, if I were your husband, I would drink it&#8221.

A standard answer to this question is that all Israel needs to do in order to achieve peace with the Palestinians is to withdraw to &#8220;the 1967 border.&#8221;  There never was such a border.  What existed between 1949 and 1967 was an armistice line specifically defined as &#8220;temporary&#8221; in the Rhodes Agreements upon Jordan&#8217;s insistence.  This line was not a border and never was meant to become one.  UN Security Council Resolution 242 was specifically worded so as not to convert the armistice line into a border.  There is no legal basis for &#8220;demanding&#8221; an Israeli withdrawal to the 1949 armistice line.  But besides legality, claiming that withdrawing to those lines will produce peace with the Palestinians defies logics.  There was no peace before 1967, so why would rewinding history back to 1967 bring a peace that didn&#8217;t exist then?

The reason why Israel was able to extract a peace agreement (though no real peace) from Sadat by withdrawing from Sinai is that all Sadat wanted was Sinai (and, incidentally, the American financial largess that came with it).  If all the Palestinians wanted were the West Bank and Gaza, the &#8220;rewind to 1967&#8221; formula would work with them as well.  But since what they want is all of Palestine, previous attempts to bring them to sign a peace agreement by settling for the pre-1967 setting have failed.  The PA teaches Palestinian children that Jaffa and Haifa will eventually be liberated from the Zionist invaders and that the only purpose of signing agreements with the infidels is to achieve the ultimate goal of &#8220;liberating&#8221; all of Palestine.  The message is getting through.  A poll conducted by Stanley Greenberg in November 2010 reveals that 60% of Palestinians see in the two-state solution a mere step to replace Israel with an exclusively Arab state.

The claim that the Palestinians have abandoned their goal of &#8220;liberating&#8221; all of Palestine ignores what they themselves keep saying (though, admittedly, in Arabic).  On May 28, Mahmud Abbas declared in Doha that he will never recognize Israel as a Jewish state, that he will never give up on the &#8220;right of return,&#8221; and that the future Palestinian state will be &#8220;clean&#8221; (or &#8220;empty,&#8221; depending on the translation) of any Israeli presence (including civilians).  In such a scenario, the State of Israel would lose its Jewish majority, while the Palestinian state will be &#8220;clean&#8221; of any Jew.  Jews would become a minority between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River, and they would be ruled by the Arab majority.  If Abbas is so clear about his true intentions, and if he is so explicit about them, why is it so hard to believe him?

What would the world&#8217;s reaction be if Netanyahu declared that the State of Israel should be &#8220;clean&#8221; of any Arab?  A two-state solution does not exclude the presence of minorities on both sides.  India was partitioned in 1947, but there are Muslims in India and Hindus in Pakistan.  This is what Netanyahu meant in his speech to Congress when he said that &#8220;in any real peace agreement that ends the conflict, some settlements will end up beyond Israel&#8217;s borders.&#8221;  Contrary to what The Economist mistakenly (or mischievously) wrote, this doesn&#8217;t mean that some Jewish towns would &#8220;by implication, have to be removed&#8221; (&#8220;You can&#8217;t make everyone happy,&#8221; The Economist, May 26).  It means that in a true peace there should be a Jewish minority in the Palestinian state, the same way that there is an Arab minority in the Jewish state.  Either the Palestinian state is willing to tolerate a Jewish minority with equal civil rights similar to the ones enjoyed by Arabs in the State of Israel, or it is committed to ethnic cleansing.  In that case, there should be a mutual population transfer, as suggested back in 1937 by the Peel Commission, between the two states.

Accepting the principle that there should be an Arab minority in the Jewish state but no Jewish minority in the Palestinian state would set an unprecedented double-standard; it would absolve the Palestinians for their intolerance towards minorities; and it would implicitly endorse the idea that the Arabs have stronger rights than the Jews over a land that both peoples claim to be theirs.

  Having " trouble" with the link?  The author and date of this article are right on top.   I realize it's hard for ANY Pro- Palestinian to admit they're wrong but in ADDITION to Abbas saying " No Israelis "(  It IS understood that MOST Israelis are Jewish) he ALSO stated NO JEWS


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## P F Tinmore (Dec 18, 2012)

Where is the quote saying no Jews?


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 18, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Where is the quote saying no Jews?



Click here: Arab Leader: No Jew in Future Palestinian State 

  Don't like that article ?  lol  Here's another one. Even IF the article said " NO ISRAELIS" is that any different?  I know you saw that article also.  It IS understood that the VAST MAJORITY of Israelis are Jewish.  Pro- Palestinians always squirm when you have them in a Corner.


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## ima (Dec 18, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> search FF
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Did you scrub a lot of toilets in the IDF?


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 18, 2012)

ima said:


> proudveteran06 said:
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## irosie91 (Dec 18, 2012)

veteran-----I  have named the   islamo-nazi  approach to  'reality'----the 
  TINKERBELLE PHENOMENON  -------just repeat over and over  
    I DO BELIEVE IN FAIRIES       I DO BELIEVE IN FAIRIES    ........

                      and tinkerbelle will  BE A REALITY


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 18, 2012)

irosie91 said:


> veteran-----I  have named the   islamo-nazi  approach to  'reality'----the
> TINKERBELLE PHENOMENON  -------just repeat over and over
> I DO BELIEVE IN FAIRIES       I DO BELIEVE IN FAIRIES    ........
> 
> and tinkerbelle will  BE A REALITY




  It's just unbelievable. I posted one article which clearly stated  NO ISRAELIS which AUTOMATICALLY means NO JEWS then I posted another one which states NO JEWS.

  Regarding past " negotiations and compromises" Israel has put forth I posted.  Of course they were DE- NIED especially by the Pro- Palestinian DIRTBAGS  One especially  CONSTANTLY denies that Abbas is DEMANDING the 67 Borders yet she refuses to offer her " resources". That's because she doesn't have any.  All she has is a big mouth


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## irosie91 (Dec 18, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > veteran-----I  have named the   islamo-nazi  approach to  'reality'----the
> ...




Veteran     -----  islamo nazi logic has not changed since its inception  ---APPROXIMATELY 
   300   AD-----CONSTANTINE


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## georgephillip (Dec 18, 2012)

*If it walks and talks like a 2013 CE fascist...*

"I would even dare to suggest that in Israel of the early 21st century, the fascist atmosphere with all its trappings &#8211; other than hatred of the Jews, which always serves as our decisive alibi for denial &#8211; reflects the public mood more than in the classic fascist regimes of the 20th century. 

"Here, fascist politics is made in the very image and character of the nation, even more than it was made in the image and character of the Germans and Italians. 

"Here, there is no disturbed, perverted and violent minority that is forcing its will on an entire culture &#8211; rather, this is the culture of the majority.

"*Glorification of the race*, hatred and aggression toward strangers and a lack of any compassion for the weak and helpless are the characteristics of the majority here. 

"Beautiful Israel is represented by the minority of the minority &#8211; the fig leaf that soon will no longer be able to hide our nakedness. In another brief moment, even this little shoot will turn yellow and fall."

Eyal Megged: If it walks like fascism and talks like fascism | Israeli Occupation Archive

*Ready for that Fall, rosie?*


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## ima (Dec 18, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 18, 2012)

ima said:


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 18, 2012)

irosie91 said:


> veteran-----I  have named the   islamo-nazi  approach to  'reality'----the
> TINKERBELLE PHENOMENON  -------just repeat over and over
> I DO BELIEVE IN FAIRIES       I DO BELIEVE IN FAIRIES    ........
> 
> and tinkerbelle will  BE A REALITY




  You know what's funny?  The Pro Palestinian   S**MBAG  DENIES Abbas is INSISTING on the 67 Borders yet a first grader would know enough to GOOGLE it.


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## georgephillip (Dec 18, 2012)

Maybe that explains why you can't provide a link proving Abbas's alleged insistence?


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## Hossfly (Dec 18, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> Maybe that explains why you can't provide a link proving Abbas's alleged insistence?


Abbas sez:

Peres: PA president is partner for peace; Netanyahu: Abbas' words are empty - Israel News | Haaretz Daily Newspaper

Abbas wants U.N. nod for Palestine - The Times-Gazette

Mahmoud Abbas Concedes No Right of Return


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## georgephillip (Dec 18, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe that explains why you can't provide a link proving Abbas's alleged insistence?
> ...


"Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas made a rare if symbolic concession to Israel on Thursday, saying he had no permanent claim on the town from which he was driven as a child during the 1948 war of the Jewish state&#8217;s founding.

*"Palestine now for me is &#8216;67 borders*, with East Jerusalem as its capital. This is now and forever &#8230; This is Palestine for me. I am (a) refugee, but I am living in Ramallah. I believe that (the)* West Bank and Gaza is Palestine and the other parts (are) Israel*.&#8221;

Mahmoud Abbas Concedes No Right of Return

The 1967 borders with "minor and mutual modifications" has been accepted worldwide as a starting point for resolving the Israel/Palestine dilemma for forty years. It would be useful if Israel would stop building settlements on the land that is being negotiated for, however.


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 18, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> Maybe that explains why you can't provide a link proving Abbas's alleged insistence?





  Denying that Abbas is INSISTING on the 67 Borders?  When confronted with the truth all these Pro- Palestinian liars know how to do is lie  It's in their blood


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 18, 2012)

Click here: Abbas Demands Palestinian State with 1967 Borders to UN &#8212; California Political Review

Let him keep insisting on the Borders that were not recognized or respected by the Arabs plus " Right of Return".  His " Palestinian State" will not happen.


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## georgephillip (Dec 18, 2012)

Click here.
1967 borders with "minor and mutual modifications" are the starting point for negotiations AFTER the Treasured People stop stealing the land being negotiated over.
Click here...and here...and here if terminally retarded.


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## irosie91 (Dec 18, 2012)

there were no borders in  1967-------if there were borders in 1967----why did Nasser want to have a war?      to establish borders?       how can any one  "steal land"  if there are no borders?       can we assume that egypt and jordan and syria are STEALING land since they do use lots of the  DISPUTED  non bordered areas


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## Hossfly (Dec 18, 2012)

Abbas Demands Palestinian State with 1967 Borders to UN


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 18, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> Click here.
> 1967 borders with "minor and mutual modifications" are the starting point for negotiations AFTER the Treasured People stop stealing the land being negotiated over.
> Click here...and here...and here if terminally retarded.



    So, ONE of the Pro- Palestinians FINALLY agrees with me.  We are still talking BASICALLY about the 1967 Borders which Israel will NOT go back to which is what I have been stating all along. 

     Abbas wants Israel TOTALLY out of the W.Bank and E. Jerusalem with " Right of Return".  It's not going to happen.  Abbas had the perfect chance for his " Palestinian State" after Israel left Gaza.  He blew it.  Read SLOWLY if terminally retarded


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 18, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> Click here.
> 1967 borders with "minor and mutual modifications" are the starting point for negotiations AFTER the Treasured People stop stealing the land being negotiated over.
> Click here...and here...and here if terminally retarded.





  TRY TO READ THIS IF NOT TERMINALLY RETARDED 































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Abbas wants return to pre-1967 borders




Posted 10/10/2007 9:01 AM | Comment  | Recommend 

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RAMALLAH, West Bank (AP)  Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas on Wednesday laid out his most specific demands for the borders of a future independent state, calling for a full Israeli withdrawal from all territories captured in the 1967 Mideast war.

Abbas' claim comes as Israeli and Palestinian negotiating teams are trying to hammer out a joint vision for a future peace deal in time for a U.S.-hosted conference next month.

With Israel seeking to retain parts of the West Bank and east Jerusalem, Abbas' comments appeared to set the stage for tough negotiations, which are expected to include complicated arrangements such as land swaps and shared control over holy sites.

In a television interview, Abbas said the Palestinians want to establish a state on 6,205 square kilometers (2,400 square miles) of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. It was the first time he has given a precise number for the amount of land he is seeking.

"We have 6,205 square kilometers in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip," Abbas told Palestine TV. "We want it as it is."


According to Palestinian negotiating documents obtained by The Associated Press, the Palestinian demands include all of the Gaza Strip, West Bank, east Jerusalem and small areas along the West Bank frontier that were considered no-man's land before the 1967 war.

Abbas said his claim is backed by U.N. resolutions. "This is our vision for the Palestinian independent state with full sovereignty on its borders, water and resources."

Israeli government spokeswoman Miri Eisin declined to comment, saying she did not want to prejudice negotiations. But the Palestinian demands appear to exceed anything that Israel would be willing to offer.

Israeli and Palestinian negotiators held their first working meeting this week as they try to hammer out a joint declaration in time for next month's conference. The U.S. hopes the document will provide a launching ground for full-fledged negotiations on a final peace agreement.

Israel captured the territories in the 1967 Mideast war and hopes in a final peace deal with the Palestinians to hold on to parts of the West Bank where Jewish settlement blocs are located. Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip in 2005.

Despite Abbas' tough public stance, aides to Abbas said he has agreed in recent talks with Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert to exchange West Bank land Israel wants to keep in a final peace deal with an equal amount of Israeli land. This would allow Israel to annex the West Bank area where the settlement blocs are located.

As part of the proposal, Abbas offered Olmert about 2% of the West Bank, the aides said. Olmert is seeking some 6-8% of the West Bank, but has said the exact amount of territory should be decided in future negotiations. The aides spoke on condition of anonymity since they were not authorized to discuss sensitive diplomatic matters with the media.

In exchange for the West Bank land, Israel is reportedly considering transferring to the Palestinians a strip of area between the Gaza Strip and West Bank to allow for a connection between them.

Abbas said the joint statement at the conference must deal with the main hurdles preventing a final peace agreement.

"The international conference must include the six major issues that are Jerusalem, refugees, borders, settlements, water and security," Abbas said.

Meanwhile, Israeli troops shot and killed a Palestinian militant affiliated with Abbas' Fatah Party in a raid early Wednesday, members of the armed group said.

The shooting also wounded a senior militant from the Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, the group said. The wounded man, Sufian Kandeel, had recently signed a deal granting him amnesty from Israel, but had not fulfilled several conditions, group spokesman Mahdi Abu Ghazaleh said.

Israel's army said it was checking into the report.

Witnesses said the Israeli soldiers entered Nablus' Old City, known as a militant stronghold, disguised in Palestinian security forces uniforms and carrying Kalashnikov rifles typical of the forces, witnesses said.

They spoke Arabic to passersby, asking "how are you," and raising no suspicions as they took positions on rooftops, the witnesses said.

The troops shot toward about a dozen Palestinian militants, some of whom were armed, and wounded Kandeel, who was unarmed, Abu Ghazaleh said. As the militants tried to evacuate Kandeel, the troops shot again, killing another unarmed man, he said.

Members of the group had said earlier that the two men were armed, but Abu Ghazaleh, who was at the scene of the shooting, said after that they were not.

Israel has in recent weeks offered several gestures to Abbas in an effort to strengthen the leader in the eyes of Palestinians.

Hamas' seizure of power in the Gaza Strip in intense fighting in June, left Abbas and a Western-backed government in control of the West Bank.

  Get it, stupid??  Of course not


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## georgephillip (Dec 18, 2012)

Fuck you, Bitch.

"The United States has slammed Israel for continuing to announce new settlement construction on land claimed by the Palestinians in an unusually rare and blunt criticism of its top Mideast ally.

The State Department accused Israel on Tuesday of engaging in a '*pattern of provocative action*' that runs counter to statements from Israeli leaders that they are committed to peace. Spokeswoman Victoria Nuland said settlement activity only puts the goal of peace 'further at risk.' She urged both Israel and the Palestinians to halt all provocations and take steps to revive long-stalled peace talks."

U.S. slams Israeli 'pattern of provocation' - Israel News | Haaretz Daily Newspaper


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## irosie91 (Dec 18, 2012)

yeah?      so??


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## Hossfly (Dec 18, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> Fuck you, Bitch.
> 
> "The United States has slammed Israel for continuing to announce new settlement construction on land claimed by the Palestinians in an unusually rare and blunt criticism of its top Mideast ally.
> 
> ...


You don't have to talk so sweetly, George, or should I say Dumas?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 19, 2012)

Where did Abbas get the authority to change Palestine's borders to the 1949 armistice lines?


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 19, 2012)

P F Tinmore,  _et al,_

This is what I mean when I say, the Palestinians have no one single voice of authority.



P F Tinmore said:


> Where did Abbas get the authority to change Palestine's borders to the 1949 armistice lines?


*(COMMENT)*

Negotiations are impossible because everyone complains about the terms.  Nothing the Palestinians say has any meaning because everyone has a different agenda and every offering is challenged.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## ima (Dec 19, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> Fuck you, Bitch.
> 
> "The United States has slammed Israel for continuing to announce new settlement construction on land claimed by the Palestinians in an unusually rare and blunt criticism of its top Mideast ally.
> 
> ...


Israel is provoking the arabs because they all want to be nuked. Me thinks that they'll get their wish soon enough.


----------



## irosie91 (Dec 19, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> docmauser1 said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...




The entire jewish population of the nation now called  SAUDI ARABIA 
was genocided out of existence.     Following that event----people FROM 
that nation now called saudi arabia ----invaded lands in north africa and asia 
on a rampage of   rape, murder and pillage.     The dogs of arabia  went to 
lands with high populations  of jews on their rape and murder rampage ---such as  
Yemen,  today's  IRAQ----and persia      etc etc  

It is likely that the dogs of arabia comitted genocide upon jews in 
many of those land in the same manner that their descendants 
in Nigeria murdered  millions of Biafran children----STARVATION SIEGE


----------



## proudveteran06 (Dec 19, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> Fuck you, Bitch.
> 
> "The United States has slammed Israel for continuing to announce new settlement construction on land claimed by the Palestinians in an unusually rare and blunt criticism of its top Mideast ally.
> 
> ...



  FUCK YOU PRICK.   All these VILE PRO- PALESTINIANS know how to do is CURSE when caught in their own lies.   It should be obvious even to SHITHEADS LIKE YOU that Abbas has NO DESIRE for " peace".   We saw what happened right after Israel left Gaza.    " Stalled Peace Talks?"  Get this through your PRO- PALESTINIAN PRICK.... Israel is NOT going to return to the 67 Borders that the Arabs have NEVER recognized or respected .  They are NEVER going to give up E.Jerusalem.  Share it?  Perhaps.  Give it up?  No; YOU PRICK.


----------



## irosie91 (Dec 19, 2012)

Abbas is more dangerous than was  ARAFART  and is  HANIYEH 
   Abbas is a devious bastard nazi


----------



## proudveteran06 (Dec 19, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Where did Abbas get the authority to change Palestine's borders to the 1949 armistice lines?





1949 Armistice lines?  I like that idea.   He should try it ( I mean it)


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 19, 2012)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> 
> This is what I mean when I say, the Palestinians have no one single voice of authority.
> 
> ...



Two questions:

If Hamas won the election, why did they have to "violently take over Gaza?"

If Fatah lost the elections, how did they end up running the West Bank?


----------



## irosie91 (Dec 19, 2012)

for those who do not understand  Tinnie's posts----I will explain----he has decided that there is a country called 
PALESTINE ----which is and has been MUSLIM LAND  for 
the past 10,000 years and its borders are IMMUTABLE. 

"PALESTINE"   includes----what is today called   'the west bank' 
 'gaza'     and     'israel'--------and has included these land masses as   "MUSLIM LAND"     ----for all of the history of mankind.      He is not alone in this belief-----I heard about  
MUSLIM LAND  from the son of a pakistani diplomat when we 
were both children-----that was pre 1967.     There is no  "jewish land"    but there is lots of  "MUSLIM LAND" 
      of course pakistan is MUSLIM LAND----but later on I 
learned that all of the  Indian subcontinent is  "MUSLIM LAND"---it is  "THE MOGHUL EMPIRE" 

when Bin laden spoke of correcting the  TRAGEDY OF ANDALUSIA-----he was making a declaration of  "SPAIN 
AS MUSLIM LAND"   

When Achmadinejad recently spoke in the UN  of  
"ISLAM AS THE RELIGION FOR ALL MANKIND"   he 
was describing the  PLANET EARTH   as  "MUSLIM LAND" 
   if there is life out there---on other planets----then----
   there are other  MUSLIM PLANETS


----------



## proudveteran06 (Dec 19, 2012)

irosie91 said:


> Abbas is more dangerous than was  ARAFART  and is  HANIYEH
> Abbas is a devious bastard nazi




    Abbas and Arafat are one of the same.  They both made it very clear they would NOT accept less then 67 " Borders"   lol and " Right of Return".     NANIYEH is a different story.  He has made it clear that even if there is a " Two State Solution" ( there won't be) he will never accept Israel and the Mission will be to destroy it.  He is actually doing Israel a big favor


----------



## irosie91 (Dec 19, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > Abbas is more dangerous than was  ARAFART  and is  HANIYEH
> ...




   Haniyeh   certainly makes it  LOGICAL for Israel to not capitulate 
to ANYTHING he wants      For me ----anyone who supports  HAMAS---
is an obvious nazi pig seeking to dance on the dead bodies of 
Israeli babies-----even if they do claim  ----"the jews do not have to die---
they can simply GO AWAY"-----something like nazi whore sherri.   Reminds 
me of the town nazis of my childhood----"the colored people can be happy 
ELSEWHERE"       (anyone remember the  "equal but separate" thing 
of the civil rights era?)


----------



## Hossfly (Dec 19, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > Abbas is more dangerous than was  ARAFART  and is  HANIYEH
> ...


Arafart + Abu Mazen = Munich '72. IMO


----------



## docmauser1 (Dec 19, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> _1967 borders with "minor and mutual modifications" are the starting point for negotiations AFTER the Treasured People stop stealing the land being negotiated over._


What land? No philistines mentioned in the resolution 242, of course.


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## docmauser1 (Dec 19, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> _Where did Abbas get the authority to change Palestine's borders to the 1949 armistice lines?_


A sad testimony to the EU/UN meddling in the philistine affairs, indeed. Pure neocolonialism.


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 19, 2012)

P F Tinmore,  _et al,_

Yes, this is one of those "Who's on First" acts.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Ah, the mysteries of the exotic Middle East.  All I can say is that the Palestinians work in mysterious ways.  

Even Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas instituted a "regional state of emergency" and attempted to dislodge the Hamas-led unity government they took control of the Gaza Strip.   And the Aqsa Brigade _(AKA Aqsa Martyrs')_ did a number on Hamas in the West Bank, which largely led to the success of Fatah.  

The control of Gaza and the West Bank is a struggle between various militant radical Islamic factions that are vying for the power and influence that they cannot achieve through democratic means.

Neither (designated terrorist group) is working in the best interest of the peoples.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 19, 2012)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> 
> Yes, this is one of those "Who's on First" acts.
> 
> ...



I think you missed the point of my questions.

BTW, what was that  "regional state of emergency" That Abbas was talking about?


----------



## ima (Dec 19, 2012)

Rocco, most respectfully, you're a fucking douchesack.


----------



## proudveteran06 (Dec 19, 2012)

ima said:


> Rocco, most respectfully, you're a fucking douchesack.



   Leave it to the Pro- Palestinian SCUM. The minute they are caught with their lies ( Abbas does NOT want the 67 Borders, the Palestinians are " negotiating", etc, etc,) they CURSE.


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 19, 2012)

P F Tinmore, ima, _et al,_

I will admit that it is hard to walk the tightrope of being sympathetic to positions assumed on both sides of these complex issues, while trying to maintain that distinctive American flavor.



P F Tinmore said:


> I think you missed the point of my questions.
> 
> BTW, what was that  "regional state of emergency" That Abbas was talking about?


*(COMMENT)*

I'm not sure how President Abbas perceived the election outcome.  I would NOT presume to speak for him or his very unique perspective on the event.  But it was very clear that he was quick to recognize the conditions for spot reactive violence and a clash between the two Palestinian elements.  He may have taken the step to warn the population of the outburst and protect them to the extent possible.


If I did miss the point, I apologize!  Break it down for me.  What was the point?



ima said:


> Rocco, most respectfully, you're a fucking douchesack.


*(COMMENT)*

I think the word you are looking for is "_douche bag_:" a pejorative term for an arrogant or obnoxious person.   I never thought of myself as an "obnoxious person" or "retarded;" but our ideas may conflict.  Without regard for what you might think of me _(the ad Hominem slight aside)_, I learn just as much from those that disagree with me _(such as yourself)_ as I do with those very _(very)_ few that might be parallel with me.



			
				Urban Dictionary said:
			
		

> 1.	 douche bag
> somebody who you think is a complete retard and doesn't know anything about what they're talking about.​SOURCE:  Urban Dictionary: douche bag



I often hold the minority opinion.  It is not uncommon for me to catch hell from both sides of the regional issue; as well as, the pro-US discussion participants.  Most often, the players are either totally on one side or the other, with little to no regard for the perspective of the other.  This is also true within the Israeli camp.  There are many Israelis that object to the strategy used by their government in the administration and exploitation of the "Occupied Territories."

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 20, 2012)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore, ima, _et al,_
> 
> I will admit that it is hard to walk the tightrope of being sympathetic to positions assumed on both sides of these complex issues, while trying to maintain that distinctive American flavor.
> 
> ...



One of my original questions was:



> If Hamas won the election, why did they have to "violently take over Gaza?"



If I may rephrase that, why would a legally elected government already in office have a coup? A coup against whom? What would be the purpose?

After the supposed coup, the president was still the president, the prime minister was still the prime minister, no cabinet members were changed, there was no change in the legislature or the judiciary, no laws were changed, the constitution was still in force.

*What kind of coup changes nothing?*

It seems that I am the only one who noticed these inconsistencies with the truth.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 20, 2012)

irosie91 said:


> yeah?      so??


So most of the world sees "creeping annexation" and you're still deaf, dumb, and blind:

"Earlier on Tuesday, the European Union members of the UN Security Council  Britain, France, Germany and Portugal  were expected to issue a joint statement condemning the Israeli government's decision to construct homes in the Ramat Shlomo neighborhood of Jerusalem, located beyond the Green Line."

U.S. slams Israeli 'pattern of provocation' - Israel News | Haaretz Daily Newspaper


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 20, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > Fuck you, Bitch.
> ...


Israel will return to the '67 borders with "minor and mutual modifications" or vanish from the page of time. It's a concept simple enough for even a pathic punk (like you) to grasp.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 20, 2012)

docmauser1 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > _1967 borders with "minor and mutual modifications" are the starting point for negotiations AFTER the Treasured People stop stealing the land being negotiated over._
> ...


"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in *Palestine*..." 

Balfour Declaration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## proudveteran06 (Dec 20, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...



  You first challenge me when I say that Abbas is insisting on the 67 Borders then when I'm proven right you get defensive.  Typical Pro- Palestinian Mentality.  Israel will never totally leave the W. Bank and especially E. Jerusalem where many of the religious sites are.   The Arabs didn't accept the 67 Borders then; Israel isn't going to accept them now.  I'm not even going to mention " Right of Return"  lol    It's a concept; simple enough even for a pathetic PRICK like you to grasp


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 20, 2012)

*Learn how to read, Retard:*

"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

Balfour Declaration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 20, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...



Why should the Palestinians accept a change to 67 borders when they already have borders?


----------



## proudveteran06 (Dec 20, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...



  The " 1948 Borders"   lol that the Arabs never accepted or respected PLUS " Right of Return?   "   Now... THAI'S FUNNY!


----------



## proudveteran06 (Dec 20, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> *Learn how to read, Retard:*
> 
> "His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."
> 
> Balfour Declaration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



  Read this retard;  The Arab Countries rejected the Balfour Declaration

 There are Arabs in Israel  who enjoy religious freedom

The Arabs rejected the 1948, 1967 Boundries and Israel doesn't have to accept them now.  In 1948 Jordan was supposed to allow the Israelis to have access to E. Jerusalem but of course they were denied.   That will NEVER happen again; Dirtbag.   Israel is not going to go back to Boundries that the ARABS themselves have rejected.  Get it?  Of course not.  You're too stupid


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 20, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...



The 1948 borders are still valid. Since when have the Palestinians rejected those borders. We are not talking about 1949 armistice lines that are specifically not borders.


----------



## docmauser1 (Dec 20, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> docmauser1 said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...


Cool, and still no philistines mentioned in the resolution 242, of course. Why's that me wonders?


----------



## docmauser1 (Dec 20, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> _Why should the Palestinians accept a change to 67 borders when they already have borders?_


So, what was their state that allegedly had "borders"?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 20, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > *Learn how to read, Retard:*
> ...


*Try to catch up, Pathic Vetch:*

In January of 1976 Arab states offered a peace plan at the UNSC calling for "minor and mutual modifications" to the 1967 borders. How did the "chosen people" respond? 

"Israel refused to attend the session. 

"The U.S. vetoed the resolution, and did so again in 1980."

A Middle East Peace That Could Happen (But Won't): In Washington-Speak, "Palestinian State" Means "Fried Chicken"

If Israel thinks five million Jews are going to rule six million Arabs, it will disappear into the same sewer as White South Africa...making shit like you feel useful for the first time in your pathic punk life.


----------



## docmauser1 (Dec 20, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> _In January of 1976 Arab states offered a peace plan at the UNSC calling for "minor and mutual modifications" to the 1967 borders. How did the "chosen people" respond? "Israel refused to attend the session. "The U.S. vetoed the resolution, and did so again in 1980." chomsky.info_


Yeah, right.


----------



## ima (Dec 20, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> ima said:
> 
> 
> > Rocco, most respectfully, you're a fucking douchesack.
> ...



If you hate the arabs so much, why did you leave the army? Because they wouldn't let you kill any?


----------



## proudveteran06 (Dec 20, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...




 The Borders that the Arabs have rejected?  Don't think so !  They could have had their " Palestinian State" in 1948 and did reject them along with the rest of the Arab World.  Nice try though !


----------



## proudveteran06 (Dec 20, 2012)

ima said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > ima said:
> ...



  I killed enough.  It was time for someone else to have a turn..  lol     Tell us AGAIN what " compromises" is Abbas making?  Oh wait;;;  There aren't any.


----------



## ima (Dec 20, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> ima said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...


I agree with you that the arabs haven't made many if any real compromises. But I also know that neither has Israel.
So how many carpet kissers did you whack?


----------



## proudveteran06 (Dec 20, 2012)

ima said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > ima said:
> ...



   Another lie.  The Arabs haven't made ANY compromises which is what I have been saying all along.  The Pro- Palestinian " forgot" about something called " Gaza" apparently.  Israel also offered to leave most ( not all ) of the W. Bank .  Are they going to leave E. Jerusalem?   The answer is " NO"         Carpet kissers did I " whack?"   I think all the Virgins are being used all over again


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 20, 2012)

docmauser1 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > _In January of 1976 Arab states offered a peace plan at the UNSC calling for "minor and mutual modifications" to the 1967 borders. How did the "chosen people" respond? "Israel refused to attend the session. "The U.S. vetoed the resolution, and did so again in 1980." chomsky.info_
> ...


*Exactly, Herr drivel...Just ask The World's Smartest Jew:*

"The fact that the Israel-Palestine conflict grinds on without resolution might appear to be rather strange. For many of the world's conflicts, it is difficult even to conjure up a feasible settlement. In this case, it is not only possible, but there is near universal agreement on its basic contours: a two-state settlement along the internationally recognized (pre-June 1967) borders -- *with minor and mutual modifications*,' to adopt official U.S. terminology before Washington departed from the international community in the mid-1970s.

"The basic principles have been accepted by virtually the entire world, including the Arab states (*who go on to call for full normalization of relations*), the Organization of Islamic States (i*ncluding Iran*), and relevant non-state actors (*including Hamas)*. 

"A settlement along these lines was *first proposed at the U.N. Security Council in January 1976* by the major Arab states. *Israel refused to attend the session. The U.S. vetoed the resolution*, and did so again in 1980..."

A Middle East Peace That Could Happen (But Won't): In Washington-Speak, "Palestinian State" Means "Fried Chicken"


----------



## SAYIT (Dec 20, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> docmauser1 said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...



In fact, I never said any of that camel crap.


----------



## SAYIT (Dec 20, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...



No reason to waste one's time grasping a concept that will never come to pass now is there, Princess?


----------



## SAYIT (Dec 20, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> *Learn how to read, Retard:*
> 
> "His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."
> 
> Balfour Declaration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



A line which has always bothered me because it tasked the Zionists with establishing a Jewish homeland without actually establishing a Jewish homeland ... in effect, making an omelete without cracking some eggs. The conflict, tragically, was inevitable. 64 years later we are tasked with helping these people find a way out. Don't bother to ask why.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 20, 2012)

SAYIT said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > *Learn how to read, Retard:*
> ...


Or perhaps the Zionists were tasked with creating a Jewish homeland and NOT a Jewish State?


----------



## SAYIT (Dec 20, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...



Will you and I quibbling about whether statehood or homeland was intended by Balfour help these people end their conflict or shall we engage in parsing while Rome burns?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 20, 2012)

SAYIT said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > docmauser1 said:
> ...


Are you sure?
What about this:

*"Substantial mythology* has been created about the entire record, but the basic facts are clear enough and quite well documented.

"The U.S. and Israel have been acting in tandem to extend and deepen the occupation. 

"In 2005, recognizing that it was pointless to subsidize a few thousand Israeli settlers in Gaza, who were appropriating substantial resources and protected by a large part of the Israeli army, the government of *Ariel Sharon decided to move them to the much more valuable West Bank and Golan Heights.*

"Instead of carrying out the operation straightforwardly, as would have been easy enough, the government decided to stage a '*national trauma,'* which virtually duplicated the farce accompanying the withdrawal from the Sinai desert after the Camp David agreements of 1978-79. 

"In each case, the withdrawal permitted the cry of 'Never Again,' which meant in practice: *we cannot abandon an inch of the Palestinian territories that we want to take in violation of international law.* 

"This farce played very well in the West, though it was ridiculed by more astute Israeli commentators, among them that country's prominent sociologist the late Baruch Kimmerling."

A Middle East Peace That Could Happen (But Won't): In Washington-Speak, "Palestinian State" Means "Fried Chicken"


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 20, 2012)

SAYIT said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > SAYIT said:
> ...


Hopefully, we can begin by agreeing any flames will likely be nuclear this time?

"The records of discussions that led up to the final text of the Balfour Declaration clarifies some details of its wording. 

"The phrase '*national home' was intentionally used instead of 'state*' because of opposition to the Zionist program within the British Cabinet. Following discussion of the initial draft the Cabinet Secretary, Mark Sykes, met with the Zionist negotiators to clarify their aims. 

"His official report back to the Cabinet categorically stated that the Zionists did not want 'to set up a Jewish Republic or any other form of state in Palestine or in any part of Palestine'"

Possibly because His Majesty's royal assent to a Jewish presence in Palestine had more to do with safeguarding British oil interests than with righting a two thousand year old wrong?

Balfour Declaration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## SAYIT (Dec 20, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...



I have no reason to believe that the current low-level conflict will escalate into anything nuclear and I'll wait here while you go through your obligatory parsing.


----------



## irosie91 (Dec 20, 2012)

it gets more and more amusing----georgie imagines that the MUSINGS and PERSONAL INCLINATIONS  and  IMAGINATIVE THOUGHTS of the king of england-----make a difference  and  "somehow"    disqualify  the lives of jews in their quest to survive the filth of islamo nazi pigs----like georgie      One can spend time trying to imagine why   LINCOLN  wanted to end black slavery too----maybe he considered that population an important source of  TRAIN PORTERS for the northern cities ----maybe


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 21, 2012)

Maybe Abe needed Blacks in the same way your hero Constantine needed Christians?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 21, 2012)

SAYIT said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > SAYIT said:
> ...


"parse (third-person singular simple present parses, present participle parsing, simple past and past participle parsed)
(linguistics) To resolve into its elements, as a sentence, pointing out the several parts of speech, and their relation to each other by government or agreement; to analyze and describe grammatically."

Grammatically speaking, why do you suppose loyal British Zionists lied about wanting "to set up a Jewish Republic or any other form of state in *Palestine* or in any part of *Palestine*?"

Possibly they were parsing Palestine...

parse - Wiktionary

I'm sure we both agree Israel lied about being the first to introduce nuclear weapons into the Middle East, right?


----------



## irosie91 (Dec 21, 2012)

Israel  did not lie about nuclear weapons-----it has never used them ----weapons do not kill----PEOPLE USING WEAPONS KILL    Islamo 
nazi pigs have never needed weapons to kill-----even in the MILLIONS.
The respecters of isa murdered more than two milion  Armenians armed 
only with clubs, knives and their cutomary perversity and characteristic 
stench


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 21, 2012)

Hitler's heroes didn't need weapons?
Who knew?

Speaking of Nazis...

"Senior Haaretz analyst Amir Oren says that if Obama wins in November, he will likely push for dramatic new reductions in nuclear arsenals; in addition to the U.S. and Russia, Israel may also have to give up some of the nuclear warheads it reportedly holds."

Israel's atomic arsenal could fall victim to a new U.S. nuclear policy - Israel News | Haaretz Daily Newspaper


----------



## irosie91 (Dec 21, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> Hitler's heroes didn't need weapons?
> Who knew?
> 
> Speaking of Nazis...
> ...




**************
so?      your fellow nazi pigs killed lots of people without weapons----using the muhummad 
ass licker technique of siege and starvation.    They did not use nuclear weapons.   Israel 
has defended itself from your fellow islamo nazi pigs without using nuclear bombs


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 21, 2012)

So there's absolutely no reason why the "chosen ones" should object to giving up weapons they've never used.


----------



## proudveteran06 (Dec 21, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> So there's absolutely no reason why the "chosen ones" should object to giving up weapons they've never used.



Acknowledged: U.K., China, France, India, Pakistan, Russia, United States, Israel, North Korea1
 Seeking: Syria, Iran2


   The above Countries have them, two are seeking them so why is the Pro- Palestinian targeting Israel?  Because that is the Pro- Palestinian mentality.     Just like the other one on the board who states that if Israel doesn't give in to EVERYTHING Abbas wants Israel is going to get " nuked" yet Israel is the " agressor?"   lol    These Pro- Palestinians are desperate.


----------



## docmauser1 (Dec 21, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> docmauser1 said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...


I know he's an idiot with the matching following, so there's no need to ask, of course.


----------



## docmauser1 (Dec 21, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> _Or perhaps the Zionists were tasked with creating a Jewish homeland and NOT a Jewish State?_


Or, perhaps, arabs were thought to be civilized, eh?


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## docmauser1 (Dec 21, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> _What about this:"Substantial mythology has been created about the entire record, but the basic facts are clear enough and quite well documented._


What about this: Chomsky's an idiot.


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## georgephillip (Dec 22, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > So there's absolutely no reason why the "chosen ones" should object to giving up weapons they've never used.
> ...


Of all the countries you mentioned only one is subject to nearly 100 UNSC Resolutions condemning its illegal occupation?

Hint: it's the same "chosen" state that lies (not acknowledges) about its nuclear arsenal.

Why does the Israel-Firster place the Jewish state's interest over that of the US?


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## georgephillip (Dec 22, 2012)

docmauser1 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > _What about this:"Substantial mythology has been created about the entire record, but the basic facts are clear enough and quite well documented._
> ...


"Avram Noam Chomsky (/&#712;no&#650;m &#712;t&#643;&#594;mski/; born December 7, 1928) is an American linguist, philosopher,[8][9] cognitive scientist, logician,[10][11] historian, political critic, and activist. 

"He is an Institute Professor and Professor (Emeritus) in the Department of Linguistics & Philosophy at MIT, where he has worked for over 50 years.[12] 

"In addition to his work in linguistics, he has written on war, politics, and mass media, and is the *author of over 100 books*.[13] 

"According to the Arts and Humanities Citation Index in 1992, Chomsky was cited as a source more often than any other living scholar from 1980 to 1992, and was the eighth most cited source overall.[14][15][16][17] 

"He has been described as a prominent cultural figure, and he was voted the "world's top public intellectual" in a 2005 poll."

Where did you place in that poll, drivel?
How many books have you published?
Where's your Wiki?
Idiot.

Noam Chomsky - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## irosie91 (Dec 22, 2012)

georgie is playing the usual islamo nazi libel game.     Way back circa 1960---the nazi dogs  did the   "ISRAEL FIRST"   game ----one of the early manifestations of georgie shit-----goes back to the early  60s when georgie clones invented the   "DUALIE"   libel.     The dogs actually published articles 
EXPLANING  that   the USA congress was FORCED to enact a NEW LAW ---
allowing   JOOOOOS,   AND JOOOOO ONLY---to have double citizenship----both with Israel and the  USA          Of course the dogs and pigs lied----THE USA  simply does not and never did prohibit  double or triple or quadruple 
citizenship-----but lots of people did not know that so their little silly filth WORKED SO WELL-----that there are still nazi pigs and sows in the world who 
use the term   "DUALIE"        For the record----the shit georgie articles on this 
subject actaully showed up in fairly reputable periodicals-----sold in candy stores where even kids could be subjected to georgie filth


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## P F Tinmore (Dec 22, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...



The Palestine Mandate was not to set up a Jewish state. It was to:


Facilitate the Immigration of Jews.

Assist Jews in obtaining Palestinian citizenship.

Set up a shared government.

Do nothing to infringe on the rights of the inhabitants.(natives)
Britain violated the League of Nations Covenant, its own mandate, and the legal rights of the Palestinians.


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 22, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...



  " Illegal Occupation" after the Arab Countries initiated every single War?   lol   If the Arabs had won the 67 War somehow I don't think we would be talking about " illegal occupation".  " Palestine" didn't exist before 1967 and still doesn't.    I am placing the Jewish States interest over that of the U.S. because I believe Israel has the right to exist?  Leave it to a Racist Pro- Palestinian who believes a " Palestinian State" should be the " Chosen State"  with almost everyone being a Muslim


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## georgephillip (Dec 22, 2012)

International law makes no distinction between territory acquired through war, whether Israel attacked first in 1967 because of Arab provocations doesn't change the illegality of filling the occupied territories with Jewish civilians from around the world.

A state called Palestine may or may not have existed before 1967; however, a place called Palestine has existed for centuries:

"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment *in Palestine* of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object..."

FWIW, I think Arab elites would not have embraced democracy had they won in '67.
It's hard to avoid the conclusion that Arab "leaders" fall into an authoritarian mode.
That doesn't change the current situation in the land between the Mediterranean and the Jordan.
Five million Jews ruling six million Arabs requires illegal occupation.

Balfour Declaration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## georgephillip (Dec 22, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > SAYIT said:
> ...


And the British did all this at the same time the Royal Navy was switching from coal to oil to power its fleets.

*"Sir* Ronald Storrs, the first Governor of Jerusalem, certainly had no illusions about what a 'Jewish homeland' in Palestine meant for the British Empire: 'It will form for England,' he said, '*a little loyal Jewish Ulster* in a sea of potentially hostile Arabism.'&#8221;

"Storrs&#8217; analogy was no accident. Ireland was where the English invented the tactic of *divide and conquer*, and where the devastating effectiveness of using foreign settlers to drive a wedge between the colonial rulers and the colonized made it a template for worldwide imperial rule."

Divide and Conquer as Imperial Rules | FPIF


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## irosie91 (Dec 22, 2012)

how fascinating      it is certainly true that  economics drive history.    Some historians believe that the wars that rocked the middle east----in the era about  2500   to  1600 years ago and the programs of CONQUEST  that even led to the romans ROAMING to the British Isles were related to changes in 
weather and crop failures         SO????     if not for the IRISH POTATO FAMINE----there might not be a  SAINT PATRICK'S DAY PARADE in Manhattan 
New York  each year.    I have head that the custom of eating  "CORNED BEEF AND CABBAGE"  on St Patrick's day----actually developed in  New York City because the Irish people escaping the  POTATO FAMINE-----came into 
contact with jews in----the southern part of Manhattan        Isn't that interesting?   Now tell me more about what brought the jews to palestine 
in the  1800s-------the  BRITISH SENT THEM AFTER OIL?


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## P F Tinmore (Dec 23, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...



Are you saying that the Palestinians started the 1948 war when they went to Europe and attacked the Zionists?


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## irosie91 (Dec 23, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...





   Islamo nazi pigs started the war of  1948  in    the year   629  CE --when they did their characteristic     MURDER RAPE AND PILLAGE for the 
glory of allah/isa  in the battle of  KHAYBAR-----they continued that attack    
INCESSANTLY  over the next  in excess of  13 centuries      in the countries which they invaded and inflicted their filth---in Africa,  Europe and Asia----
and very definitely in  Palestine ---aka   Israel/Judea
   They revved up the islamo nazi filth   in the early  1900s when to the   DELIGHT of TINNIE et al-----they embarked on his ALL TIME FAVE of infant 
throat slitting    and rape of  JOOOOOS    in palestine   aka Israel/Judea and in the land in which they had already imposed their filth and stink ---
upon ALREADY EXISTING --INDIGENOUS Jewish populations----such as in   
Iraq  and  Yemen   and Tunisia and  Morocco----etc etc


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## ima (Dec 23, 2012)

irosie91 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...



So iro, if the Jews knew what was going to happen in Palestine if they went back there, why did they go there? Didn't have enough shit with Hitler and just wanted to take some more pounding?


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 23, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...



  You're right....  The Palestinians aren't Arabs.  They are really Swedish and demanded their own State but the Arabs went against them and attacked Israel


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 23, 2012)

ima said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



  This comes from the Pro- Palestinian who tells us that Abbas is " compromising and negotiating" yet when you ask for the link  there is nobody home.  Consider the source


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## ima (Dec 23, 2012)

proudveteran06 said:


> ima said:
> 
> 
> > irosie91 said:
> ...


You're a fucking retard, I've NEVER mentioned Abbas, so go fuck yourself, you little zionut.


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## georgephillip (Dec 23, 2012)

irosie91 said:


> how fascinating      it is certainly true that  economics drive history.    Some historians believe that the wars that rocked the middle east----in the era about  2500   to  1600 years ago and the programs of CONQUEST  that even led to the romans ROAMING to the British Isles were related to changes in
> weather and crop failures         SO????     if not for the IRISH POTATO FAMINE----there might not be a  SAINT PATRICK'S DAY PARADE in Manhattan
> New York  each year.    I have head that the custom of eating  "CORNED BEEF AND CABBAGE"  on St Patrick's day----actually developed in  New York City because the Irish people escaping the  POTATO FAMINE-----came into
> contact with jews in----the southern part of Manhattan        Isn't that interesting?   Now tell me more about what brought the jews to palestine
> in the  1800s-------the  BRITISH SENT THEM AFTER OIL?


*Not OIL, fool, POTATOES!* 

We both remember 1969 and the number of bombs going off in Northern Ireland.
When did that example of Royal divide and conquer begin?
*1609*.

"Ariel Sharon and former Prime Minister Menachem Begin normally take credit for creating the 'facts on the ground' policies that have poured more than 420,000 settlers into the Occupied Territories. But they were simply copying *Charles I, the English King, who in 1609* forcibly removed the O&#8217;Neill and O&#8217;Donnell clans from the north of Ireland, moved in 20,000 English and Scottish Protestants, and founded the Plantation of Ulster.

The 'removal' was never really meant to cleanse Ulster of the Irish. Native labor was essential to the Plantation&#8217;s success and within 15 years more than 4,000 native Irish tenants and their families were back in Ulster. But they lived in a land divided into religious castes, with the Protestant invaders on top and the Catholic natives on the bottom.

"Protestants were awarded the 'Ulster privilege' which gave them special access to land and lower rents, and also served to divide them from the native Catholics. 

"The 'Ulster Privilege' is not dissimilar to the kind of 'privilege' Israeli settlers enjoy in the Territories today, where their mortgages are cheap, their taxes lower and their education subsidized."

Irish potatoes and Arab oil are commodities that rich, royal parasites have coveted in the past and continue to pursue today; yet more proof that Economics still drives History.

Divide and Conquer as Imperial Rules | FPIF


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## irosie91 (Dec 23, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > how fascinating      it is certainly true that  economics drive history.    Some historians believe that the wars that rocked the middle east----in the era about  2500   to  1600 years ago and the programs of CONQUEST  that even led to the romans ROAMING to the British Isles were related to changes in
> ...




   YES YES   all very fascinating---and do you know why jews lived in ARABIA?
Arabia was the STOP OVER   root  for the  WEST <<>>EAST  spice and 
textile trade     Do you know why Muhummad wanted MECCA so badly?
 Mecca was  the  FOCAL POINT of that  marketing thing CREATED 
 by the  east<<>><<>>west trade ----Muhummad started his 
 career ROBBING CARAVANS        Now lets try to figure out 
 why the ARABIANS    invaded  Palestine aka Judea/Israel    The 
 very first place they did that  rape, murder, pillage thing was 
 YEMEN     They already ---a pre islamic --had had the corner 
 on the SLAVE TRADE.      Ask Sherri----she read the bible---the 
 people  to whom   JOSEPH's brother was SOLD as a slave to 
 be shipped to egypt was called   ISHMAELITES.  
 Sudan is actually an  ARAB SLAVE TRADING COLONY ---the 
 arabian slave trading window to SUBSAHARAN AFRICA   and 
 all the   "ABEDS"   any ISLAMICIST  could ever want


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## georgephillip (Dec 23, 2012)

Rosie...are you saying rich Arabs hate and fear the poor as much Charles I?


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## irosie91 (Dec 23, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> Rosie...are you saying rich Arabs hate and fear the poor as much Charles I?



more---that is why   the  SAUDI ROYALS  import Jewish doctors.   Rich 
arabs live in constant fear of   assassination and plots against them


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## georgephillip (Dec 23, 2012)

And yet when governments fall in Arab states the new leaders are cast in the same authoritarian mold as their predecessors.


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## SAYIT (Dec 23, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> And yet when governments fall in Arab states the new leaders are cast in the same authoritarian mold as their predecessors.



MJ would likely call that the "Arab mentality" but freedom, justice, equality and tolerance might not be the lifestyle to which they aspire. It's their choice. Unfortunately many who leave the Arab World, ostensibly for a better life, often take those pathologies with them and try to erect their Sharia World in the West. Pity, really.


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## member (Dec 23, 2012)

*GEORGEPHILLIP*: "Two core questions that need to be answered:"

1) What *kind of* state is Israel

































_*and. . .*_


_*2) Who are the Palestinians that state is in conflict with?"*_


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## georgephillip (Dec 23, 2012)

SAYIT said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > And yet when governments fall in Arab states the new leaders are cast in the same authoritarian mold as their predecessors.
> ...


Religious/political fundamentalists of all stripes pose a serious threat to freedom, justice, equality, and tolerance everywhere including Israel. Israel began as a socialist state deeply committed to equality of at least all of its Jewish citizens, at least.

That has changed since the fall of the Soviet Union.
There are some kosher authoritarians rising in Israel that can rival any Arabs.
For example, I've just heard on the radio that 17% to 18% of Israeli families control the majority of wealth in that country, and Israel's security complex currently owns 51% of the Jewish state.

That would seem to pose some potent pathological problems for the Jews?


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## SAYIT (Dec 23, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...



Pathetic rationalization. Israel will sort out the nature of its democracy once the Arab threat has been removed. The Arab states, as you noted, simply trade one authoritarian tyranny for the next.


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## georgephillip (Dec 23, 2012)

What's your point

Five million Jews living between the Mediterranean Sea and Jordan River have a G-d given right to rule six million Arabs?

Have a nice day... without the blood.


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## georgephillip (Dec 23, 2012)

SAYIT said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > SAYIT said:
> ...


Would you care to share your plan for removing the "Arab threat" in the Middle East?


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## SAYIT (Dec 23, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> What's your point
> 
> Five million Jews living between the Mediterranean Sea and Jordan River have a G-d given right to rule six million Arabs?



Member's post seems to say those Jews have the right to live peacefully and productively within secure  borders which they have every right to defend.


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## irosie91 (Dec 23, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> What's your point
> 
> Five million Jews living between the Mediterranean Sea and Jordan River have a G-d given right to rule six million Arabs?
> 
> Have a nice day... without the blood.



Georgie---you INCESSANTLY   repeat your complaint about
six million arabs being "RULED"   by  JOOOOS    In reality 
they are not being ruled---AS YOU KNOW-----so why not simply 
say what you really want to say      "THERE ARE LOTS MORE 
MUSLIMS IN THE WORLD SO JOOOOOS SHOULD BE LICKING 
THEIR STINKING ASSES"

   If the USA had VOTED on the issue of  "should black slavery 
      be legal in the USA"    in  1860-----chances are black americans 
      would still be picking cotton on southern plantations.  
      Try to live with the fact that even minorities do not want 
      to lick you stinking ass


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## SAYIT (Dec 23, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...



Sure. Have the Arabs end their now 64 year long siege of Israel and ... puff ... their threat to Israel's existence will be gone. What did you think I meant, Princess?


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## georgephillip (Dec 23, 2012)

I thought maybe you were (finally) going to clue the Arabs in to Israel's Eastern border?


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## georgephillip (Dec 23, 2012)

irosie91 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > What's your point
> ...


Would rosie's chosen cotton pickers enjoy unlimited bathroom breaks?
Surely even a sad hasbara hack like you has noticed all Arabs living between the Mediterranean and the Jordan live under Israel's civil or military law?


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## SAYIT (Dec 23, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> Quote: Originally Posted by georgephillip
> Religious/political fundamentalists of all stripes pose a serious threat to freedom, justice, equality, and tolerance everywhere including Israel. Israel began as a socialist state deeply committed to equality of at least all of its Jewish citizens, at least.
> 
> That has changed since the fall of the Soviet Union.
> ...



As a reward for ending the Arab siege I'm certain Israel will reveal her plan for a border.


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## SAYIT (Dec 23, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...



Really? Israeli law applies in Gaza? PA law does not apply in parts of the WB? I'm shocked, Princess, shocked I tell you!


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## Hossfly (Dec 23, 2012)

SAYIT said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > SAYIT said:
> ...


I am wondering, Sayit, where Georgie Boy gets radio programs that have told him what he just posted.  Would our own radio stations, even the ones reporting on the news of the world, talk about the percentage of people owning the wealth in Israel.  Maybe Georgie Boy should contact Carlos Slim in Mexico, reportedly the world's richest man, and ask him what percentage of Mexicans own the wealth in Mexico.  Meanwhile, Georgie Boy doesn't seem to realize that most of the land in the U.S. is owned by the government and is administered by the Bureau of Land Management just as the majority of the land in Israel is administered by the Jewish National Fund.  Georgie Boy actually sounds like some disgrunted, bitter Palestinian man who settled in the U.S. (perhaps for the benefits he would get).


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## P F Tinmore (Dec 23, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...





> the majority of the land in Israel is administered by the Jewish National Fund.



Interesting. Who owns the Jewish National Fund?


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## Hossfly (Dec 23, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > SAYIT said:
> ...


For Sneezy, Dopey, Doc and Tinnie:

Jewish National Fund - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## proudveteran06 (Dec 23, 2012)

ima said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > ima said:
> ...



  You're a FUCKING RETARD.  You never mentioned Abbas by name yet you did say that the Palestinians are doing their part and it's Israel's fault.  Where's the link?  You can't produce it because you're  FUCKING PRO- PALESTINIAN LIAR


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## SAYIT (Dec 23, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



Very funny, Hoss. No better way than humor to say "I love you."


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## Hossfly (Dec 23, 2012)

SAYIT said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


I love ol' Tinnie. Really I do. Like a hog loves slop.


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## georgephillip (Dec 24, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...


"Pacifica Radio is a network of five independently operated, non-commercial, listener-supported radio stations known for its progressive/liberal[1][2] political orientation. Launched in 1949 with service in Berkeley, California, it claims to be the world's *oldest listener-funded radio network*.[3]

"It is also a program service supplying over 100 affiliated stations with various programs, primarily news and public affairs.[citation needed] The first public radio network in the United States, it is operated by the Pacifica Foundation, a non-profit corporation with national headquarters adjoining station KPFA in Berkeley. Programs such as Democracy Now! and Free Speech Radio News are some of its most popular productions.[citation needed]

"The Pacifica Radio Archives, housed at station KPFK in Los Angeles, is the nation's oldest public radio archive,[citation needed] documenting more than five decades of grassroots political, cultural, and performing arts history. The archive includes original recordings of interviews with John Coltrane, James Baldwin, Lorraine Hansberry, and Langston Hughes, among many others."

Pacifica Radio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The content you mentioned came from KPFK's Sunday morning show called "Middle East in Focus."

All shows stream live (sometimes) maybe you should listen in next Sunday?
Invite Rush for a debate??


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## georgephillip (Dec 24, 2012)

SAYIT said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > What's your point
> ...


Jews first have to declare borders before claiming any right to defend them.
What's that Eastern border again?
Damascus??
Baghdad???
Tehran!


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## Hossfly (Dec 24, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...


Boca Raton, Sillywilly.


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## Hossfly (Dec 24, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > SAYIT said:
> ...


Leave it to Georgie Boy to find a radio station started in Berkeley, CA.   It looks like Georgie Boy just loves those Leftists whose views coincide with his own.


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## georgephillip (Dec 24, 2012)

"Pacifica was founded in 1946 by pacifists E. John Lewis and Lewis Hill. *During World War II, Hill, as well as Lewis, filed for conscientious objector status*. After the war, Lewis, Hill and a small group of former conscientious objectors created the Pacifica Foundation. KPFA in Berkeley commenced broadcast activities in 1949."

Pacifists who opposed war for corporate gain formed Pacifica independently of all corporate advertising.
No commercials, Hossie?
How long would that rich draft dodger Rush last if he had to depend on listener contributions?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacifica_Radio#Early_history


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## Hossfly (Dec 24, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> "Pacifica was founded in 1946 by pacifists E. John Lewis and Lewis Hill. *During World War II, Hill, as well as Lewis, filed for conscientious objector status*. After the war, Lewis, Hill and a small group of former conscientious objectors created the Pacifica Foundation. KPFA in Berkeley commenced broadcast activities in 1949."
> 
> Pacifists who opposed war for corporate gain formed Pacifica independently of all corporate advertising.
> No commercials, Hossie?
> ...


Georgie, it seems as thouh you spend your life rooting for losers and deadbeats. Pitiful.


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## georgephillip (Dec 24, 2012)

Hossie...why do conservatives waste their lives by serving the rich?
Are you afraid of equality?


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## Hossfly (Dec 24, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> "Pacifica was founded in 1946 by pacifists E. John Lewis and Lewis Hill. *During World War II, Hill, as well as Lewis, filed for conscientious objector status*. After the war, Lewis, Hill and a small group of former conscientious objectors created the Pacifica Foundation. KPFA in Berkeley commenced broadcast activities in 1949."
> 
> Pacifists who opposed war for corporate gain formed Pacifica independently of all corporate advertising.
> No commercials, Hossie?
> ...


Why, Georgie Boy, we know what goes on in Berkeley and elsewhere in the Bay area, pictures and all to show how they hate the Jews.  So it is not surprising that you would avidly listen to a station which started in Berkeley.  I am wondering, though, since in your article about this station, several people who are Blacks are mentioned.  Perhaps I was wrong about you being a bitter, disgruntled Palestinian man but are actually a Black man who blames all his disappointments in life on the Jews.   A Thomas Sowell Georgie Boy could never be.
 Now even though it is obvious that Georgie Boy wouldn't have joined up to fight the Nazis if he was old enough in World War II, perhaps he can make a New Year's resolution that he will become a more patriotic American by emulating what this man in his own area is doing.  Surely you can spend one day a week away from your computer, Georgie Boy, and drive or take the bus down to the Los Angeles Airport.
Everyday Heroes: USO provides volunteer with a way to serve military, their families - LA Daily News


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## georgephillip (Dec 24, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > "Pacifica was founded in 1946 by pacifists E. John Lewis and Lewis Hill. *During World War II, Hill, as well as Lewis, filed for conscientious objector status*. After the war, Lewis, Hill and a small group of former conscientious objectors created the Pacifica Foundation. KPFA in Berkeley commenced broadcast activities in 1949."
> ...


"Kunze, who works as a manufacturing analyst for Northrop Grumman Corp. in El Segundo, volunteers at the USO at LAX from 2:30-6:30 p.m. every Tuesday.

"His involvement with the USO started through a Northrop partnership with the group.

"'(Northrop) gave four people a chance to see how the operations are like for one Tuesday and I volunteered to do it because you've seen the Bob Hope (USO) specials and, being a patriotic American, I wanted to learn more,' Kunze said."

One can only wonder how many Marines have died for Northrup's market share?

FYI...I spend 6-9 hours every week volunteering at a local ADHC (Adult Day Health Care) center.
You?

Everyday Heroes: USO provides volunteer with a way to serve military, their families - LA Daily News


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## Hossfly (Dec 24, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...


You're free to check my biography on my information page , George.


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## georgephillip (Dec 25, 2012)

"Kunze traces his respect for American troops at least in part to his father's service as an Army helicopter gunner in Vietnam and Korea.

"'Vietnam wasn't a very popular war, and I'd hate to think they were not welcomed back as heroes to this country, which they are," he said.'"

*They weren't.*

Those human beings Kunze's father gunned down in Vietnam were less threat to his country than the Taliban or Saddam was. Physical courage becomes a negative when it's used for Evil purpo$e$.

Everyday Heroes: USO provides volunteer with a way to serve military, their families - LA Daily News


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## member (Dec 25, 2012)

*GEORGEPHILLIP:* _*





 Have a nice day... without the blood.*_






  is this another 3s-company _misunderstanding_​





 Im sorry, I went overboard.  That disturbing _have a nice day sign_  that wasnt directed at you or anyone (well indirectly, it was meant as a symbol of how I feel I guess).  I was comparing places -- like a tourist (Israel/west bank).  You asked: _what kind of state is israel_?  Should I want to book a vacation there in the west bank/Gaza strip/ramallah refugee camp -- that was my [sick] interpretation of what (I THINK) is the _inviting_, feel of the WB/GS, etc.







 As far as Im concerned, now matter how small or big the land is where the women (most) are forced to walk around looking like this:















 . . . .Its a collective _insane-asylum_. Millions of _patients_





 walking around and in charge of stuff (the patients are the govt, they oversee the nuclear weapons factory, theyre the armies  ETC).






 The whole joints jumpin with _patients_ - (in the west bank, the ramallah refugee camp, the Gaza strip, michigan)


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## georgephillip (Dec 25, 2012)

Muslim fundamentalists and the rich Muslim elites they support are among the most racist, misogynistic human beings on the planet. My problem lies with rich US elites who prop up Arab dictators almost as loyally as rich Jews and their fundamentalist storm trooper in Judea and Samaria.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 25, 2012)

member said:


> *GEORGEPHILLIP:* _*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGZgKLZE8hk]12 Sleepless Gaza Jerusalem.mpg - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Hossfly (Dec 25, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> "Kunze traces his respect for American troops at least in part to his father's service as an Army helicopter gunner in Vietnam and Korea.
> 
> "'Vietnam wasn't a very popular war, and I'd hate to think they were not welcomed back as heroes to this country, which they are," he said.'"
> 
> ...


It is quite apparent, Georgie Boy, that when many enlisted in World War II, you would be trying very hard to even avoid the draft so as not to fight the Nazis like the Buffalo Soldiers did.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 25, 2012)

Are you a buffalo, Hossie?

My father fought in WWII, and I don't think that would have been necessary if we had stayed out of the War to End All Wars. Hitler and Tojo posed a threat to the US homeland where Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Afghanistan, and Iraq combined did and do not.

I expect I would have been swept up in the hysteria in 1941 a volunteered to fight in WWII.
I might have felt the same way if I had been born in Bavaria instead of Michigan.
Would you have killed for Hitler, Hossie?


----------



## Hossfly (Dec 25, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> Are you a buffalo, Hossie?
> 
> My father fought in WWII, and I don't think that would have been necessary if we had stayed out of the War to End All Wars. Hitler and Tojo posed a threat to the US homeland where Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Afghanistan, and Iraq combined did and do not.
> 
> ...


No way.


----------



## Hossfly (Dec 25, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> Are you a buffalo, Hossie?
> 
> My father fought in WWII, and I don't think that would have been necessary if we had stayed out of the War to End All Wars. Hitler and Tojo posed a threat to the US homeland where Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Afghanistan, and Iraq combined did and do not.
> 
> ...


Very good for your father, Georgie Boy, but I doubt you would have been as brave as he was.   I guess you would have had no problem with Hitler taking over Europe if he had had the chance.  Ridiculous Georgie Boy, asking a U.S. Army retiree if he would have fought for Hitler when so many of our military died fighting Hitler.  Maybe Georgie Boy is telling us that he would have found a little bit of bravery and would have fought side by side with the other Nazis if he had only been born in Baveria.  What a strange thing for him to say since there were actually Germans who were against Hitler.  Next Veterans Day, Georgie Boy, why not take the bus to the National Cemetery in West Los Angeles and put a little flag next to each grave of those brave men who fought the Nazis?

Buffalo Soldier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## ima (Dec 26, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > Are you a buffalo, Hossie?
> ...


Housefly, I bet you were the best potato peeler ever in the US military.


----------



## docmauser1 (Dec 26, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> _Of all the countries you mentioned only one is subject to nearly 100 UNSC Resolutions condemning its illegal occupation?_


Is that the UNSC legal occupation?


georgephillip said:


> _Hint: it's the same "chosen" state that lies (not acknowledges) about its nuclear arsenal._


Someone has to be chosen, of course.


georgephillip said:


> _Why does the Israel-Firster place the Jewish state's interest over that of the US?_


Why do arab-firsters have to ask that?


----------



## YKohen (Dec 26, 2012)

Here's a message from America-firsters:

 *Israel as a Security Asset for the United States*

  ... A strong, secure Israel is an asset upon which American military planners and political leaders can rely. Israel is a democracy - a rare and precious commodity in the region - and Israel shares our commitment to freedom, personal liberty and rule of law.

... As American defense professionals, we view events in the Middle East through the prism of American security interests.

  The United States and Israel established security cooperation during the Cold War, and today the two countries face the common threat of terrorism by those who fear freedom and liberty. Historically close cooperation between the United States. and Israel at all levels including the IDF, military research and development, shared intelligence and bilateral military training exercises enhances the security of both countries. American police and law enforcement officials have reaped the benefit of close cooperation with Israeli professionals in the areas of domestic counter-terrorism practices and first response to terrorist attacks.

  Israel and the United States are drawn together by shared values and shared threats to our well-being.

  The proliferation of weapons and nuclear technology across the Middle East and Asia, and the ballistic missile technology to deliver systems across wide areas require cooperation in intelligence, technology and security policy. Terrorism, as well as the origins of financing, training and executing terrorist acts, need to be addressed multilaterally when possible. The dissemination of hatred and support of terrorism by violent extremists in the name of Islam, whether state or non-state actors, must be addressed as a threat to global peace.

  In the Middle East, a volatile region so vital to U.S. interests, it would be foolish to disengage - or denigrate - an ally such as Israel.

  Rear Admiral Charles Beers, USN (ret.)
  General William Begert, USAF (ret.)
  Rear Admiral Stanley W. Bryant, USN (ret.)
  Lieutenant General Anthony Burshnick, USAF (ret.)
  Lieutenant General Paul Cerjan, USA (ret.)
  Admiral Leon Edney, USN (ret.)
  Brigadier General William F. Engel, USA (ret.)
  Major General Bobby Floyd, USAF (ret.)
  Major General Paul Fratarangelo, USMC (ret.)
  Major General David Grange, USA (ret.)
  Lieutenant General Tom Griffin, USA (ret.)
  Lieutenant General Earl Hailston, USMC (ret.)
  Lieutenant General John Hall, USAF (ret.)
  General Alfred Hansen, USAF (ret.)
  Rear Admiral James Hinkle, USN (ret.)
  General Hal Hornburg, USAF (ret.)
  Major General James T. Jackson, USA (ret.)
  Admiral Jerome Johnson, USN (ret.)
  Rear Admiral Herb Kaler, USN (ret.)
  Vice Admiral Bernard Kauderer, USN (ret.)
  General William F. Kernan, USA (ret.)
  Major General Homer Long, USA (ret.)
  Major General Jarvis Lynch, USMC (ret.)
  General Robert Magnus, USMC (ret.)
  Lieutenant General Charles May, Jr., USAF (ret.)
  Vice Admiral Martin Mayer, USN (ret.)
  Major General Fred McCorkle, USMC (ret.)
  Rear Admiral Mark Milliken, USN (ret.)
  Major General William Moore, USA (ret.)
  Lieutenant General Carol Mutter, USMC (ret.)
  Major General Larry T. Northington, USAF (ret.)
  Lieutenant General Tad Oelstrom, USAF (ret.)
  Major General James D. Parker, USA (ret.)
  Vice Admiral J. T. Parker, USN (ret.)
  Major General Robert Patterson, USAF (ret.)
  Vice Admiral James Perkins, USN (ret.)
  Rear Admiral Brian Peterman, USCG (ret.)
  Lieutenant General Alan V. Rogers, USAF (ret.)
  Rear Admiral Richard Rybacki, USCG (ret.)
  General Crosbie Saint, USA (ret.)
  Rear Admiral Norm Saunders, USCG (ret.)
  Major General Sid Shachnow, USA (ret.)
  Rear Admiral Jeremy Taylor, USN (ret.)
  Major General Larry Taylor, USMCR (ret.)
  Lieutenant General Lanny Trapp, USAF (ret.)
  Vice Admiral Jerry O. Tuttle, USN (ret.)
  General Louis Wagner, USA (ret.)
  Rear Admiral Thomas Wilson, USN (ret.)
  Lieutenant General Robert Winglass, USMC (ret.)
  Rear Admiral Guy Zeller, USN (ret.)


----------



## docmauser1 (Dec 26, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> docmauser1 said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...


And Chomsky's an idiot too, of course.


----------



## docmauser1 (Dec 26, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> _The Palestine Mandate was not to set up a Jewish state. It was to:
> Facilitate the Immigration of Jews.
> 
> Assist Jews in obtaining Palestinian citizenship.
> ...


In memorable words of Winnie Churchill ""So far from being persecuted, the Arabs have crowded into the country and multiplied till their population has increased more than even all world Jewry could lift up the Jewish population." Some major illegal "native" immigrants them arabs, of course.


----------



## irosie91 (Dec 26, 2012)

The only  "PALESTINIAN CITIZENSHIP"   that existed during  the time 
of the  "BRITISH PALESTINE MANDATE"      included ---jews. 
non jews were not termed  "PALESTINIANS"  by the British or 
anyone else including ---arab muslims living in palestine---nor 
did their official people term them  "palestinians"    As to the 
intentions of the  BRITISH  regarding  a "homeland in the 
middle east for jews"-----and facilitating immigration----
the arabs rejected the idea to the point of  POGROMS ---not 
only in  "palestine"   but even in arab countries against jews 
trying to escape       thus rendering the issue entirely MOOT ---
The matter included ESCALATING VIOLENCE      on the part 
of YOUR SIDE   -------and got ended with more violence   
-------your complaint is idiotic


----------



## docmauser1 (Dec 26, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> _International law makes no distinction between territory acquired through war,..._


And what might that "international law" be?


----------



## docmauser1 (Dec 26, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> _fpif.org_


"Foreign policy in focus", a project of the Institute for Policy Studies, that is George Soros. Who could've thought?


----------



## irosie91 (Dec 26, 2012)

georgie---try to focus----there existed no  BORDER  between Israel and the West Bank-----there existed only a  TRUCE LINE      In reality the war of  1967 
did not involve  AQUISITION OF LAND -----it simply involved ----MOVING THE 
TRUCE LINE      Jerusalem was  ACQUIRED    by  Jordan----in a very violent 
battle -----that went on more than a year and included a  STARVATION SIEGE 
upon   jews enacted by jordanians        Is ACQUISITION VIA STARVATION SIEGE   legal in your  "bible"?


----------



## docmauser1 (Dec 26, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> _And yet when governments fall in Arab states the new leaders are cast in the same authoritarian mold as their predecessors._


Cool, and palistanians are by no means an exception to the rule, of course.


----------



## docmauser1 (Dec 26, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> _Jews first have to declare borders before claiming any right to defend them. What's that Eastern border again? Damascus?? Baghdad???
> Tehran!_


Oh, that's easy, the Israel-Jordan Peace Treaty. Annex I (a). Israel-Jordan International Boundary Delimitation and Demarcation. It's all there, of course. There's no need to ask that dumbass question again and again.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Dec 26, 2012)

irosie91 said:


> georgie---try to focus----there existed no  BORDER  between Israel and the West Bank-----there existed only a  TRUCE LINE      In reality the war of  1967
> did not involve  AQUISITION OF LAND -----it simply involved ----MOVING THE
> TRUCE LINE      Jerusalem was  ACQUIRED    by  Jordan----in a very violent
> battle -----that went on more than a year and included a  STARVATION SIEGE
> upon   jews enacted by jordanians        Is ACQUISITION VIA STARVATION SIEGE   legal in your  "bible"?





> ---there existed no BORDER between Israel and the West Bank-----there existed only a TRUCE LINE...



There is no border between Israel and Gaza---there is only a truce line.

There is no border between Israel and Lebanon---there is only a truce line.


----------



## irosie91 (Dec 26, 2012)

P F Tinmore said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > georgie---try to focus----there existed no  BORDER  between Israel and the West Bank-----there existed only a  TRUCE LINE      In reality the war of  1967
> ...




no    in fact there is a border between Gaza and Israel     There is a very tiny little 
area of strategic interest between Israel and Lebanon     which will easily be resolved 
once    Hezbollah and  Nus-kharah-allah  drop dead


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 27, 2012)

YKohen said:


> Here's a message from America-firsters:
> 
> *Israel as a Security Asset for the United States*
> 
> ...


Here's a message from the USS Liberty:

"On June 8, 1967 while patrolling in international waters[2] in the Eastern Mediterranean Sea, USS Liberty (AGTR-5) was savagely attacked without warning or justification by air and naval forces of the state of Israel.[3]

"Of a crew of 294 officers and men[4] (including three civilians)[5], the ship suffered thirty four (34) killed in action and one hundred seventy four (174) wounded in action.[6]..."

Considering the fact that the state of Israel would not even exist today without US backing, the deliberate attack on Liberty should remind everyone which country in the Middle East poses the biggest threat to the US.


----------



## irosie91 (Dec 27, 2012)

wrong again georgie-----the US  did virtually nothing to facilitate the forming 
of the country   Israel -----gee you are stupid ----in fact the only thing the US 
did is vote  "FOR"   inclusion in the UN  in 1948

For those who do not know----islamo nazi pigs like georgie do insist---as 
recorded in the nazi literature---that the US sent BOMBER PLANES AND PILOTS  to Israel in  1948 ----and the SEVENTH FLEET ---and financed the whole country since  1900----or even since   800 BC


----------



## YKohen (Dec 27, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> YKohen said:
> 
> 
> > Here's a message from America-firsters:
> ...



Since you're way behind the times, I will help give you an ejamakashun.


If you actually go through the now-available NSA transcripts- like *MANY* people have done, then you would see that it was clearly a case of mistaken identity.  

  You should remember that the NSA tapes and transcripts that clearly show that the Israeli pilots thought it was an Egyptian ship are available for all online:

http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/_files/uss_liberty/audio_trans_104.pdf
http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/_files/uss_liberty/audio_104.wav

*Memorandum From the Joint Chiefs of Staff to Secretary of Defense McNamara*
  Washington, July 1, 1967.
  JCSM37967
      SUBJECT
    USSLiberty Incident (U)

  1. (TS) Immediately following the Israeli air and naval attack on the USSLiberty (AGTR5) during the recent ArabIsraeli war, a Joint Chiefs of Staff ad hoc fact finding team was established to investigate the incident. The team conducted an accelerated investigation and submitted a report based upon the information obtained.2 The time and facts available to the team limited the comprehensiveness of the report.

  2. (TS) This report contained 17 recommendations and attributes the fact that the USSLiberty did not receive timecritical messages to a combination of:

      a. Human error.
    b. High volume of communications traffic.
    c. Lack of appreciation of the sense of urgency regarding USSLiberty movement and location.

  3. (TS) Most of the recommendations relate to the delay attributed to delivery of timecritical messages to the USSLiberty. Had these messages been received, the ship might have cleared the danger area prior to the attack... 

Office of the Historian - Historical Documents - Foreign Relations of the United States, 1964

  After the attack, the rescue helicopters are heard relaying several urgent requests that the rescuers ask the first survivor pulled out of the water what his nationality is, and discussing whether the survivors from the attacked ship will speak Arabic.

http://www.nsa.gov/liberty/audio_trans_1054.pdf

  A U.S. Navy EC-121, had collected voice conversations between two Israeli helicopter pilots and the control tower at Hazor Airfield following the incident.

  The NSA-translated tapes show that the helicopters were first dispatched to rescue *Egyptians* (control tower to helicopter 815 at 1234Z: "The ship has now been identified as an Egyptian ship"), and that they demonstrate confusion as to the identification of the target ship. (e.g. control tower to helicopter 815 at 1310Z "The first thing is for you to clarify what nationality they are. Notify me immediately.")

http://www.nsa.gov/liberty/liber00007.pdf

  And this is from unclassified CIA documents that you can see on the US State Department web site:

*THE ISRAELI ATTACK ON THE USS LIBERTY*

Israeli Identification of the Ship

  4. the intercepted communications between the helicopter pilots and the control tower at Hatzor (near Tel Aviv) leave little doubt that the Israelis failed to identify the Liberty as a US ship before or during the attack.

  5. A subsequent message from the control tower to the helicopter identified the ship as Egyptian and told the pilot to return home

  7. Thus it was not until 4:12 p.m. (9:12 a.m.) that the Israelis became convinced that the Liberty was American. This was about 44 minutes after the last attack on the ship

  The Israeli offer of assistance was declined because of the sensitive mission of the ship



*"The 'USS Liberty': Case Closed"*


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 27, 2012)

Why does every single survivor of Liberty believe the attack was deliberate?


----------



## YKohen (Dec 27, 2012)

1. Every single one doesn't.

2. Your own NSA tapes show it was a tragic case of friendly fire.

3. Numerous Congressional hearings concluded the same through the years.

That's why the case was closed long ago.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 27, 2012)

Name a Liberty survivor who doesn't believe the attack was deliberate.


----------



## irosie91 (Dec 27, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> Name a Liberty survivor who doesn't believe the attack was deliberate.



Name a person involved in a  PERSONAL INJURY CASE   who does not lay  BLAME  for 
his injuries 

   technically----navy veterans who publically express opinions contrary 
   to that of the navy regarding incidents in which they were involved---
   are in violation of law.   If one of the people who was involved told 
   ME  his opinion----I could not,  ethically,  repeat what he said and 
   CERTAINLY NOT NAME HIM


----------



## YKohen (Dec 27, 2012)

I don't have to. You made the statement that "every single survivor of Liberty believe the attack was deliberate". If anything, YOU would have to bring testamony toback that up- from every single one.

But it's a moot point. The case was closed long ago.

Or do you think it's some sort of Zionist conspiracy? If so, it would be from LBJ down, include Secretary of Defense McNamara, include the top echelons of the armed forces- and Congress, plus the CIA, the NSA and many others; not to mention hundreds or even thousands of officers and soldiers.

And after 45 years, there was never any kind of leak.

Must be a first.

Oh, right, and I would just love to hear _*why *_there would be such a cover-up (not to mention why we would have attacked our close and important ally, and THE leader of the free world.

I can't wait to hear this.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 27, 2012)

irosie91 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > Name a Liberty survivor who doesn't believe the attack was deliberate.
> ...


Possibly that explains why all survivors of Israel's deliberate attack on Liberty were threatened with court martial if they told the truth after being discharged?

USS Liberty Witnesses


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 27, 2012)

YKohen said:


> I don't have to. You made the statement that "every single survivor of Liberty believe the attack was deliberate". If anything, YOU would have to bring testamony toback that up- from every single one.
> 
> But it's a moot point. The case was closed long ago.
> 
> ...


Any explanation of motive would require an investigation by the full US Congress.
So far, Israel's deliberate attack on Liberty is the only similar event in US History that has never received such scrutiny.
I can't wait to see that hearing on CSPAN...how about you?


----------



## YKohen (Dec 27, 2012)

Congress did carry out a full investigation. In fact:

*U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry (June 10_18, 1967)* 

  The attack was a case of mistaken identity. Calm conditions and slow ship speed may have made American flag difficult to identify. No indication the attack was intended against U.S. ship. 

*CIA Report (June 13, 1967)* 

  The attack was not made in malice and was a mistake. 

*Joint Chiefs of Staff Fact Finding Team (Russ Report) (June 9-20, 1967)* 

  Outlined "findings of fact," bud did not make any findings about the actual attack. 

*Clifford Report (July 18, 1967) *

  No premeditation, but "inexcusable failures" by Israeli forces constituting "gross negligence." Senate Committee on Foreign Relations 1967 Secretary of Defense McNamara testified he supported conclusion that the attack was not intentional. 

*Senate Armed Services Committee (Feb. 1, 1968) *

  No conclusion. Secretary McNamara makes comparison of attack on Liberty to that on Pueblo with regard to uncertainty about what was happening at the time of the incident. 

*House Appropriations Committee (April-May 1968) *

  Navy communications "foul-up" and no conclusion regarding Israeli actions. Much of report remains classified. 

*House Armed Services Committee (May 10, 1971) *

  Critical of Navy communications, no conclusion regarding Israeli actions. 

*Senate Select Committee on Intelligence (1979) *

  Responding to critical book by Liberty crewman James Ennes, Senate investigation found no merit to his claim attack was intentional. 

*National Security Agency (1981) *

  Liberty was mistaken for an Egyptian ship as a result of miscalculations and egregious errors. 

*House Armed Services Committee (June 1991) *

  Responding to request from Liberty Veterans Association, Subcommittee on Investigations launched probe that concluded there was no evidence to support allegations made by the Association and no reason for further investigation. 

Again, do you think it's some sort of Zionist conspiracy? If so, it would be  from LBJ down, include Secretary of Defense McNamara, include the top  echelons of the armed forces- and Congress, plus the CIA, the NSA and  many others; not to mention hundreds or even thousands of officers and  soldiers.

And after 45 years, there was never any kind of leak.

Congress closed the case for a good reason: They reached a conclusion.

Move along now. Find another conspiracy theory.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 27, 2012)

*Moving on...*

"On the day of the attack on the Liberty, I read yellow teletype sheets that spewed from the machines in front of me all day. We obtained our input from a variety of sources including the NSA. The teletypes were *raw translations of intercepts of Israeli air-to-air and air-to-ground communications between jet aircraft and their ground controller*. 

"I read page after page of these transcripts that day as it went on and on. The transcripts made specific reference to the efforts to direct the jets to the target which was *identified as American numerous times by the ground controller*. 

"Upon arrival, the aircraft specifically identified the target and mentioned the American flag she was flying. 

"There were frequent operational transmissions from the pilots to the ground base describing the strafing runs.

"The ground control began asking about the status of the target and whether it was sinking. They stressed that the target must be sunk and leave no trace. The pilots stated they had made several runs and the target was still floating. 

"The ground control station re-iterated that it was urgent that the target be sunk, leaving no trace. There was a detectable level of frustration evident in the transmissions over the fact that the aircraft were unable to accomplish the mission quickly and totally."

Why do you suppose the heroic Jews wanted to sink Liberty without any survivors?

Statement of Stephen Forslund


----------



## SAYIT (Dec 27, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...



Reading the Kavanaugh statement you will find he claims two NSA personnel debriefed him bedside. "They told me that I was never to speak of the attack to anyone and not to provide details about the attack to anyone. They also told me that if I committed a breach of this agreement that I would spend many years in Leavenworth." 
A breach of what agreement? Clearly Kavanaugh and his mates have spoken openly and with each other of this incident for decades. Does anyone have a copy of that agreement? Is there any document which requires their silence? Has anyone ever signed such an agreement? Have any of them been subject to court martial? Have any ever spent "years at Leavenworth?"


----------



## YKohen (Dec 27, 2012)

That's really odd, because the NSA didn't put those alleged things on their web site.

The only ones they do have show that it was unintentional.

Of course, Forslund, being an old man by now (the tragic event happened 45 years ago), must have a faulty recollection.

 *NSA tapes offer clues in '67 attack on U.S. spy ship 34 crewmen died, 171 hurt in 'mistaken' Israeli strike

*...Now, in a highly unusual release of eavesdropping tapes, the National  Security Agency has made public recordings that show an Israeli ground  controller telling helicopter pilots after the attack that the vessel  was "an Arab ship" or "an Egyptian supply ship."

The recordings were released in response to a lawsuit filed under the  Freedom of Information Act by A. Jay Cristol, a former Navy pilot and  lawyer who has studied the incident for 16 years and published a book  about it last year, The Liberty Incident, based on his doctoral  dissertation. He says the recordings support his conclusion that the  Israeli attackers had no idea they were targeting a U.S. vessel. 

"These  tapes contain nothing showing that the attack was deliberate, and, to  me at least, they show it was a mistake," says Cristol, now a U.S.  bankruptcy judge in Miami. Based in part on his analysis, Israeli news  media are reporting that the material proves their government's case. "There's  nothing more of significance to be found," says Cristol. "I think it  will settle the matter for all but that 2 percent of die-hard conspiracy  theorists." 
==
I suppose that would include you.


----------



## SAYIT (Dec 27, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> *Moving on...*
> 
> "On the day of the attack on the Liberty, I read yellow teletype sheets that spewed from the machines in front of me all day. We obtained our input from a variety of sources including the NSA. The teletypes were *raw translations of intercepts of Israeli air-to-air and air-to-ground communications between jet aircraft and their ground controller*.
> 
> ...



And yet none of what Forslund claims to have read has ever been made public so the only person to have read it was ... drum roll, please ... Forslund. 
How convenient.
The bottom line? Israel had nothing to gain and much to lose by attacking an American ship and no one has ever found a smoking gun which explains why successive American administrations have "covered up" what has been officially deemed a tragic case of mistaken identity.


----------



## SAYIT (Dec 27, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> *Moving on...*
> Why do you suppose the heroic Jews wanted to sink Liberty without any survivors?
> 
> Statement of Stephen Forslund



Is that some sort of ethnic slur, Princess?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 27, 2012)

SAYIT said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > irosie91 said:
> ...


"Between 1000 and 1100 hours, I observed what appeared to be a maritime reconnaissance aircraft at approximately 500 feet, move slowly from starboard to 
port making a half moon circle from bow to stern. It then moved away toward 
the shore. This aircraft flew directly over our ship and I observed that it was 
marked with a Military Star of David. The aircraft flew so close to us that *we 
waved to the pilot* as he looked down at us while banking the aircraft.

"8. When the attack began, I was taking a shower just aft of the CT sleeping quarters just above the screw. While showering I heard what sounded like marbles 
thrown into an empty oil drum then the lights dimmed a few times.   A few seconds later, the apparent second run by attacking aircraft, bullets penetrated the 
ship and a bullet hit just inches away from me tearing a hole in my hip and sending me to the floor of the shower in a pool of blood."

*Think the Heroic Jew waved back?*

http://www.gtr5.com/Witnesses/kavanaugh.pdf


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 27, 2012)

YKohen said:


> That's really odd, because the NSA didn't put those alleged things on their web site.
> 
> The only ones they do have show that it was unintentional.
> 
> ...


I suppose you and Cristol are among the Jews who lie about what happened to Liberty.

"Cristol&#8217;s insufferable mantra: &#8220;The Israelis&#8217; attack on the Liberty was an accident,&#8221; was repeated by him ad nauseam at the book signing. 

"However, the overwhelming credible evidence shows that the Israeli attack was intentional (*James M. Ennes, Jr.&#8217;s 'Assault on the Liberty'*), and that an insidious cover-up of that fact has continued down to the present day (*James Bamford's 'Body of Secrets*'). 

"Recently, two individuals from the U.S. intelligence community have come forward to verify that they had viewed intercepted real-time transcripts, on June 8, 1967, between Israeli jet pilots and their ground controllers, in which the Israelis clearly acknowledged that they knew that they were attacking, and worse still, trying to sink, '*the American ship*' (http://www.ussliberty.org/smoking.htm)."

"Liberty" Smearing Backfires: Pro-Israeli Cristol Overreaches, When Ahron Jay Cristol, a self-described "amateur historian," showed up at the National Security Agency's (NSA) National Cryptologic Museum at Fort George C. Meade, MD., on Jan. 14, 2004,


----------



## SAYIT (Dec 27, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...



Lame deflection. 
You claimed all survivors of Israel's deliberate attack on Liberty were threatened with court martial if they told the truth after being discharged (how is one court martialed after discharge, anyway?). I retorted that no one has ever seen the "agreement" to which Kavanaugh refered and the survivors have been talking to anyone and everyone for decades. You then changed the subject.
And you never answered the question, Princess ... is your "Heroic Jew" reference an ethnic slur?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 27, 2012)

SAYIT said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > SAYIT said:
> ...


What makes you think the "agreement" was ever written down?
All survivors of the "Heroic Jew" assault on Liberty claim they were told never to speak of what happened (not even to their families) and if they did they would face time in prison. You would have to ask your fellow apologists for Israel how many survivors were prosecuted.

Why do you take the word of foreign apologists over Liberty survivors in this matter?


----------



## SAYIT (Dec 27, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> YKohen said:
> 
> 
> > That's really odd, because the NSA didn't put those alleged things on their web site.
> ...



So who the hell is Bill Hughes and why would anyone care what he thinks?


----------



## SAYIT (Dec 27, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...



If even just a few survivors had come forward with this threat of prison story in a timely fashion the entire alleged "cover-up" would have blown up. 
In fact, I believe the results of American gov't hearings and investigations which, as you know, concluded that the attack was a fog-of-war friendly fire incident. 
Why do you have so little faith in America that you reject those findings?


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 27, 2012)

georgephillip,  _et al_,

It is called an "NDA" or Non-disclosure Agreement.  There are several different kinds.  The two most common are collateral (TS and below), and the one for "SCI" or Sensitive Compartmented Information or Special Access Programs (SAPs).  Everyone, down to the Cook, on the USS Liberty signed an NDA just for being assigned to an Intelligence Research Ship.  Most of the technical crew would have signed a couple, depending on the compartments they were given access.  

Every NDA Briefing says if you make an unauthorized disclosure you will go to jail and pay $10K in fines for each count.



georgephillip said:


> What makes you think the "agreement" was ever written down?
> All survivors of the "Heroic Jew" assault on Liberty claim they were told never to speak of what happened (not even to their families) and if they did they would face time in prison. You would have to ask your fellow apologists for Israel how many survivors were prosecuted.
> 
> Why do you take the word of foreign apologists over Liberty survivors in this matter?


*(COMMENT)*

I gave such briefings every day during my tenure as an SSO.  There is absolutely nothing unusual about the process.  It is still done today.  

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 27, 2012)

Rocco...do you have any thoughts on how the Liberty Incident would have played out in the Internet age?


----------



## SAYIT (Dec 27, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> YKohen said:
> 
> 
> > That's really odd, because the NSA didn't put those alleged things on their web site.
> ...



Do you infer that only Jews accept the US gov't conclusions which were conducted at the time of the incident and reject the stories of those such as Bill Hughes who find fame and perhaps fortune many decades later?


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 27, 2012)

georgephillip,  _et al_,

Interesting question.



georgephillip said:


> Rocco...do you have any thoughts on how the Liberty Incident would have played out in the Internet age?


*(COMMENT)*

Moving the clock, forward three decades ('67 to '97) it would be unlikely that such an event would have ever occurred given the technology available.   While the range finders and aiming scopes of 1967 leave open the possibility for plausible denial _(the misidentification defense leading to friendly fire)_, given the FDM use of the Guard Band, the active RADAR signature, and the ability of FM Ship-to-Ship, and allied IFF, there could not have been such an event. _(Not that the USS Liberty was not electromagnetically lit-up like a Christmas Tree.)_

But had the events of '67 populated the media stream at today's speeds, it would be rather unlikely that the relations between the US and Israel would have developed along the path it did.  It would have been the end of US direct support --- militarily and politically.

And that is the hinge pin.  

Most Respectfully,
R

_*PS:*  The events of the USS Liberty (AGTR-5) had set an important precedent  that would play-out again six months later with the USS Pueblo (AGER-2).  It should be noted that these are the only two US Naval Vessels ever attacked for which there was no response._


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 27, 2012)

Many thanks for your patience and tact, Rocco.
I wasn't taking into account all of the technological changes since June '67.

Admiral Thomas Moorer also has some thoughts on the _Liberty_ vs _Pueblo_ disconnect:

"As we know now, if the rescue aircraft from U.S. carriers had not been recalled, they would have arrived at the Liberty before the torpedo attack, reducing the death toll by 25. 

"The torpedo boat commanders could not be certain that Sixth Fleet aircraft were not on the way and this might have led to their breaking off the attack after 40 minutes rather than remaining to send the Liberty and its crew of 294 to the bottom. 

"Congress to this day has failed to hold formal hearings for the record on the Liberty affair. This is unprecedented and a national disgrace. 

"I spent hours on the Hill giving testimony after the USS Pueblo, a sister ship to the Liberty, was seized by North Korea. I was asked every imaginable question, including why a carrier in the area failed to dispatch aircraft to aid the Pueblo. 

"In the Liberty case, fighters were put in the air not once, but twice. They were ordered to stand down by Secretary of Defense McNamara and President Johnson for reasons the American public deserves to know."

Admiral Thomas Moorer Rejects Israeli's Excuse


----------



## irosie91 (Dec 28, 2012)

more idiocy from  georgie   Re ---the liberty>>>

   "The ground control station (israeli)  re-iterated that it was urgent that the target be sunk, leaving no trace."  

     georgie is quoting someone here.      HOW DOES ONE SINK A USA NAVAL 
                        VESSEL AND   "leave no trace"      ???????


----------



## docmauser1 (Dec 28, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> _Here's a message from the USS Liberty_


Any message from Cap'n Kirk?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 29, 2012)

He says, "the Jews did it."
Repent.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 29, 2012)

SAYIT said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > *Moving on...*
> ...


How do you know Forslund is the only person who has read the teletypes?
We do know every single survivor of Israel's attack claims the attack was deliberate.
We also know many high ranking US government officials don't believe AIPAC's version of the events:

"We, the undersigned, having undertaken an independent investigation of Israel's attack on USS Liberty, including eyewitness testimony from surviving crewmembers, a review of naval and other official records, an examination of official statements by the Israeli and American governments, a study of the conclusions of all previous official inquiries, and a consideration of important new evidence and recent statements from individuals having direct knowledge of the attack or the cover up, hereby find the following: **..."

"That there is compelling evidence that Israel's attack was a deliberate attempt to destroy an American ship and kill her entire crew; evidence of such intent is supported by statements from Secretary of State Dean Rusk, Undersecretary of State George Ball, former CIA director Richard Helms, former NSA directors Lieutenant General William Odom, USA (Ret.), Admiral Bobby Ray Inman, USN (Ret.), and Marshal Carter; former NSA deputy directors Oliver Kirby and Major General John Morrison, USAF (Ret.); and former Ambassador Dwight Porter, U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon in 1967.."

I don't think you would be so (kosher) pig-headed about resisting a full investigation of this incident if your pals the Egyptians had attacked Liberty.

The Moorer Commission


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 29, 2012)

SAYIT said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > SAYIT said:
> ...


*Because all governments lie.*
Why do you question the integrity of those who were actually on board Liberty?

"The USS Liberty Veterans Association has established, prima facie, *the commission of war crimes by the state of Israel* against US military personnel and civilians. These Americans volunteered to serve their country. They followed all orders given to them.  In the course of following those orders, they were suddenly and deliberately attacked by naval and air forces of the state of Israel and *their country did absolutely nothing to protect them* or seek justice on their behalf..

"The failure of the United States government to undertake a complete investigation of the Israeli attack on USS Liberty has resulted in grievous harm to the surviving victims, as well as to the families of all crewmembers. 

"Equally serious, this failure has resulted in an indelible stain upon the honor of the United States of America. It has sent a signal to America's serving men and women that their welfare is always subordinate to the interests of a foreign state. 

"The only conceivable reason for this failure is the political decision to put the interests of Israel ahead of those of American servicemen, employees, and veterans.[66]

"Finally, the fact that the Israeli government and its surrogates in the United States have worked so long and hard to prevent an inquiry itself speaks volumes as to what such an inquiry would find."

What do you suppose elites in Israel and the US have to fear from the first full investigation into Israel's deliberate assault of Liberty? 

Do you consider yourself an official surrogate of all Jews?

USS Liberty Memorial: Summary of Events


----------



## irosie91 (Dec 29, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...





  There are lots of group action law suits against the navy and army.     Even I had 
very peripheral involvement in some.  ------they are written up petition style 
as above------I would tell you about my own experience with such law suits---
but I cannot divulge any information------doing so would be a crime.   
The gag thing on the Liberty boys is -----standard for the navy for any 
investigated incident.    I find it amusing that  islamo nazi pigs try to paint it up 
as something  "special"  for Israel


----------



## docmauser1 (Dec 29, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> _He says, "the Jews did it."_


The Liberty soup?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 29, 2012)

irosie91 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > SAYIT said:
> ...


There is not another nation on this planet "special" enough to kill 34 US service members in international waters and get away with it. Just out of idle curiosity, has the Jewish state ever committed any war crimes in your opinion?


----------



## ima (Dec 29, 2012)

* What Kind of State in Israel?*

It's in a state of denial.


----------



## docmauser1 (Dec 29, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> _Because all governments lie._


Cool. So many trees for the rabble rousers to bark up!


----------



## docmauser1 (Dec 29, 2012)

ima said:


> _What Kind of State in Israel? It's in a state of denial._


Does it mean it's agnostic?


----------



## ima (Dec 29, 2012)

docmauser1 said:


> ima said:
> 
> 
> > _What Kind of State in Israel? It's in a state of denial._
> ...



Agnostics accept proof when they see it. Please try again.


----------



## irosie91 (Dec 29, 2012)

docmauser1 said:


> ima said:
> 
> 
> > _What Kind of State in Israel? It's in a state of denial._
> ...



a  DENIER---is called   "KAFFIR"   in  arabic-----it is a capital crime 
to DENY   the absolute veracity of the koran  (kufr).    In the days of the 
INQUISITION----which spanned a very large area of the planet --
even reaching to the americas----Denial of the official canon of 
the christian church  (heresy) ----was also a capital crime. 

   today---there are people ----like sherri----who LONG FOR 
THE GOOD OLD DAYS------<<this concept is actually the 
basis for the   NOBLE ARAB SPRING-----and the  
HEZBOLLAH  program  of Iran.   It is also the basis of 
NAZISM


----------



## docmauser1 (Dec 29, 2012)

ima said:


> docmauser1 said:
> 
> 
> > ima said:
> ...


What about blind agnostics?


----------



## jodylee (Dec 29, 2012)

A squatter state!


----------



## Hossfly (Dec 29, 2012)

jodylee said:


> A squatter state!


Ain't it a pity, Palisimians squatting on the Promised Land? Joshua would be mortified!


----------



## ima (Dec 29, 2012)

docmauser1 said:


> ima said:
> 
> 
> > docmauser1 said:
> ...



Why, in your tiny world, blind people can't tell if it's the truth or not?


----------



## RoccoR (Dec 29, 2012)

ima, docmauser1, _et al,_

My friend "ima" --- that is just too funny.  Ooops, I popped a couple stitches!

In the case cited, it depends on - if the Guide Dog _(Seeing Eye Dog)_ has a religious preference.



ima said:


> docmauser1 said:
> 
> 
> > ima said:
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

In nearly every debate, there are a few, outside the standard deviation, that simply cannot adjust to any new evidence or promising theory (testable) that will alter their evaluation and outcome.  But in the case of a "Blind Agnostic" _[someone that will never be compelled to the belief in an Active & Interventionist Supreme Being (SB)]_ there is no real testable set of reproducible demonstrations that would consistently reveal the existence of an SB.   

On the other hand, the only reason that "Blind Agnostic" is even recognizable as something outside the norm is because it has developed intuitively and naturally in the cognitive skill set of the "Blind Agnostic."  This could be attributed to a hardwire mental acquisition _[(the SLC18A2 Gene)(VMAT-2)(the "GOD" Gene)] _that amplifies the fear of the unknown and need to explain the unknown _(the invisible hand)_ which is not present in the "Blind Agnostic." 

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 30, 2012)

docmauser1 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > _He says, "the Jews did it."_
> ...


*The Liberty sieve?*

"Following their torpedo attack, the torpedo boats moved up and down the length of the ship (both the port and starboard sides), continuing their attack, raking the ship with cannon and machine gun fire.[21] 

"In Malta, crewmen were later assigned the task of counting all of the holes in the ship that were the size of a man's hand or larger. They found a total of 861 such holes, in addition to 'thousands' of .50 caliber machine gun holes."

USS Liberty Memorial: Summary of Events


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 30, 2012)

ima said:


> * What Kind of State in Israel?*
> 
> It's in a state of denial.


And it's a state that would not even exist without a "blank check" from US taxpayers.
I wonder if that falls under the heading of "treasured" or "chosen?"


----------



## Hossfly (Dec 30, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> ima said:
> 
> 
> > * What Kind of State in Israel?*
> ...


Are you still moaning, Georgie, when you don't even pay any taxes and the taxpayers in Los Angeles are subsidizing you to have a roof over your head?  Meanwhile, why exaggerate that Israel is given a blank check when that is a lie and most of the money allocated to Israel must be spent in our defense industry?  Why not whine about the money that the U.S. taxpapers have given for years to countries where the money was to help poor people but just landed up in the pocket of tyrants and dictators.  By the way, you sound hungry.  Why not go to a senior center for a low cost, filling meal.  Maybe if you fill your belly you would not be whining so much about Israel and the Jews.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 30, 2012)

*You're getting way too cynical, Hossie.*

The last time I paid market rent this low was when a single minimum wage job paid enough to cover the rent for a brand new one bedroom apartment. The richest 1% among us earned about 8% of US income at that time. Today, the rich take about 20% of annual US income; that is one big reason I need help to avoid living under a bridge which is exactly where I was four years ago this minute.

Your whining makes me wonder if you imagine yourself descended from the tribe of Manasseh?
Wouldn't you be happier killing Arab children in Judea?
Maybe you could get a drone franchise?

Israel is swirling the same racist drain White South Africa disappeared into three decades ago.
Good riddance, IMHO.


----------



## Hossfly (Dec 30, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> *You're getting way too cynical, Hossie.*
> 
> The last time I paid market rent this low was when a single minimum wage job paid enough to cover the rent for a brand new one bedroom apartment. The richest 1% among us earned about 8% of US income at that time. Today, the rich take about 20% of annual US income; that is one big reason I need help to avoid living under a bridge which is exactly where I was four years ago this minute.
> 
> ...


I don't imagine, I know for a fact. About Apartheid, read Michener's book, The Covenant before you claim to be an expert on the subject.


----------



## MHunterB (Dec 30, 2012)

Georgie must be quite n old geezer - which would explain both the stale quality of his posts and the faint aroma of ..........desperation clinging to them.

The situation he describes hasn't existed since about 1950 - which is before I was born.  We've been raising the minimum wage while not making much effort to remove taxes from the poorest among us.  And the many states which tax FOOD bought in the grocery store are punishing the poor for needing to spend more of their income on necessities.

Georgie isn't any better informed on foreign affairs than he is on domestic situations.  Or he'd be able to cite the 'apartheid laws' which restrict non Jews from voting for people running for the Knesset - or from running themselves, etc.....  I bet he'll tell us that Iran has 'Jews' in their legislature - it's ONE, and it's a 'set-aside' (aka 'apartheid'), one per each 'minority' Iran is willing to recognize.  That doesn't include the Baha'i , does it?

No, Israel is not perfect - not even as good as the US in some respects (but better in others!) - but it isn't anywhere near the 'equivalent' of the old SA.  And the 'Palestinians' who are about 20% of Israel's citizens are a hell of a lot better off than their kin who live in camps in nations like Syria and Egypt - or are wage slaves in KSA and the like.......  but none of that matters to Georgie.

He doesn't care about how the Palestinians are being abused, to include by their own Arab 'brethren' - he just wants to spit on Jews however he can find an excuse.


----------



## toastman (Dec 30, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> ima said:
> 
> 
> > * What Kind of State in Israel?*
> ...



Thanks for the money  We all appreciate it .

BTW, how much money does Obama give to the Muslim Brotherhood


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 30, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > *You're getting way too cynical, Hossie.*
> ...


Uri Avnery has a better perspective on contemporary apartheid in Israel than Michener's account of 19th century Africa has, IMHO.

For example, in this 2007 article he chronicles the plight of a young Arab woman from Jenin who married an Arab Israeli. The Jewish State forbids Palestinians from the occupied territories from joining their spouses in Israel.

The official excuse, of course, is "security"; however Avnery posits a more pragmatic motive behind
the prohibition involving a fearful demon and his emissaries

*"His emissaries scour the world for Jews, real or imagined*. 

"They have discovered (and brought to Israel!) Indians who claim to be descended from the tribe of Manasseh, one of the ten tribes that were exiled by the Assyrians &#8211; according to the Bible &#8211; from Palestine some 2720 years ago. 

"In New Mexico they have discovered families whose ancestors were supposedly Jews baptized 500 years ago under the threat of the Spanish Inquisition. 

"They bring Russian Christians, who have a tenuous connection with Jewish families, and the Falashmura from Ethiopia, whose Judaism is rather dubious. All of these are dragged to Israel and obtain immediate citizenship and a generous '*absorption subsidy*'. 

"But a young woman from Jenin, whose family has lived in this country for centuries, is not allowed to live here with her husband, whose forefathers have lived in Acre for generations. All because of that fearful demon."

Are your demons promising an "absorption subsidy", Hossie?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 30, 2012)

MHunterB said:


> Georgie must be quite n old geezer - which would explain both the stale quality of his posts and the faint aroma of ..........desperation clinging to them.
> 
> The situation he describes hasn't existed since about 1950 - which is before I was born.  We've been raising the minimum wage while not making much effort to remove taxes from the poorest among us.  And the many states which tax FOOD bought in the grocery store are punishing the poor for needing to spend more of their income on necessities.
> 
> ...


So...tell the ol' Geezer one thing, Marg: if Israel is a nation-state of Jews world wide does that give it "the right to do anything that serves Jews and harms non-Jews, even when they are Israeli citizens(?)"

The Future of Israel as Nation State » Counterpunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

650,000 Jews spat on democracy in 1948 when they inflicted a Jewish State on 1.2 million non-Jews. What goes around, comes around. Eventually.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 30, 2012)

toastman said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > ima said:
> ...


However much money Obama donates to the Brotherhood, it's dwarfed by the amount Wall Street will donate to him after he "reforms" Social Security to the banker's benefit sometime during his second term. Maybe the "Treasured People" will get a piece of that?


----------



## irosie91 (Dec 30, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...




Oh gee----georgie is from the shit of the  unwashed scum----THE JOOOOOS HAVE ALL THE MONEY  ---libel----with which they justified their rapes and murders and pillage fest for  1700 years -----for the entertainment of their disgusting sluts and the delight 
of 'priests'   of their    "RELIGION" 
    I know georgie well      I lived in a town full of pigs like georgie----------sad news 
georgie------the town is now  INTEGRATED and your murder rape fest has been 
discredited


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 30, 2012)

*Do you write your shit with a straight face, rosie?*

Some JOOOOOOOs have a lot of money.
Most JOOOOOOOOs tend to be politically liberal.
Maybe that's why Amnesty International wouldn't use the word "torture" in describing Israel's treatment of Palestinians in the '80s?
Not much doubt of kosher torture today, right?
'Not sure about your hometown.
Maybe you would care to tell us if Israel has ever committed a crime you would condemn?


----------



## ima (Dec 30, 2012)

Israel is like Hiroshima, but before the blast.


----------



## Hossfly (Dec 30, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...


Or perhaps the poor unfortunate people like Georgie will get a little more.  We'll keep our fingers crossed for you, Georgie.  Does anyone think that if Georgie had been successful in his life and had actually gotten a job on Wall Street and had earned a nice living that he would be pissing and moaning as he is now about the Jews?  Gee, if only Georgie had been as smart as Dr. Wanda. Austin, he could have been the one who is President of the Aerospace Corporation located in his county and wouldn't have to worry about the Los Angeles taxpayers chipping in to pay for his subsidized housing.


----------



## Hossfly (Dec 30, 2012)

irosie91 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...


I think in the long run Georgie Boy is probably an equal opportunity hater if a group has been more successful than he has been in life.  I wouldn't be surprised, if there happened to be a message board talking about the Korean Americans  on the Internet,  he would be blaming the Koreans in his town for the riots of the early 1990's.


----------



## Hossfly (Dec 30, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...


How funny that Georgie Boy is so obsessed with Israel that he doesn't realize that the Arabs have it so much better there than in many Middle Eastern countries.   And of course I don't think Georgie Boy, if he had happened to get a job in some Muslim country, would have liked it if they called him slave in Arabic.   I think Georgie Boy would have been treated better in Israel.
African refugee boys get a new start in Israel

Meanwhile, Georgie Boy has no problem with lapping up anything this Avnery fellow has to say.  If Georgie Boy would check, he would find out that many in the American Southwest who think they have Jewish roots are sending in samples of their DNA to find out.  When they find out that they do have Jewish roots, then they understand why there were always candles lit on Friday night and a clean white tablecloth was always put on the table.  Did you know, Georgie Boy, that the Rabbi in Tijuana had found out he had Jewish roots so went to a Rabbinical school to become a Rabbi?  Perhaps you can take a Greyhound Bus or the train down to San Diego and catch a trolley to the border.  Cross over and find the Rabbi and ask him how he felt when he found out his ancestry.   Wouldn't it be a hoot if Georgie Boy had some roots in Judaism via some Ethiopian or Ugandan ancestry?
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7YwtWe_gKk]Abayudaya (Jewish Uganda) synagogue - Shirat Hayam - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 31, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...


Is Hossie confused about Wall Street's relationship to those who profit from killing innocent human beings for money? Smedley Butler wasn't:

"*WAR is a racket. It always has been*.

"It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives.

"A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small 'inside' group knows what it is about. *It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many*. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes.

"In the World War _ a mere handful garnered the profits of the conflict. 

"At least 21,000 new millionaires and billionaires were made in the United States during the World War. That many admitted their huge blood gains in their income tax returns. How many other war millionaires falsified their tax returns no one knows."

Does Hossie consider those 21,000 patriotic Americans who became millionaires and billionaires from the War To End All Wars successful? Are those who falsified their tax returns more or less successful that their fellow patriots?

How many innocent human beings have died because Hossie was an unsuccessful abortion?

THREE TITLES [3] for the PRICE OF ONE.

BTW Bigot, my subsidize housing hasn't required me to kill a single human being for money.
Unlike yours._


----------



## ima (Dec 31, 2012)

Israel is like Nagasaki, but before the blast.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 31, 2012)

Be careful what you wish for:

"Noam Chomsky and others have said Israel suffers from a '*Samson complex*' which could lead to the destruction of itself as well as its Arab enemies."

Samson in popular culture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## irosie91 (Dec 31, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> Be careful what you wish for:
> 
> "Noam Chomsky and others have said Israel suffers from a '*Samson complex*' which could lead to the destruction of itself as well as its Arab enemies."
> 
> Samson in popular culture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




  Georgie is a real comedian----in one post he  states----that there are so many 
muslims in the world that they are bound to  "WIN" by virute of 
FORCE OF NUMBERS  -----so everyone should start 
licking their asses right now------     And in the next he COMPLAINS   that  Israelis 
might  fight so vigoriously for their own survival that it and lots of other nations 
could be destroyed       SO?        Yup       You think you made a point,  
georgie?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 31, 2012)

You think I missed the non sequitur, rosie?

I pointed out how Muslims will comprise about 25% of the global population by 2050 which means it would be difficult to discuss religious equality without including Islam in the discussion. You immediately crafted a "straw man" by rewriting my argument to include your regular feces fetish.

Apparently you confuse discussion with surrender.
Were you "hugged" too much in childhood?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 31, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...


I would be more inclined to blame those who created the economic conditions that encouraged black vs Korean violence in '92, Hossie. But I kinda doubt a good 'ol bible thumpin, flag flappin fool wants to seriously debate one source of those riots:

"Yuh Woon-Hyung (May 25, 1886 &#8211; July 19, 1947) was a Korean politician who argued that Korean independence was essential to world peace, and a reunification activist who struggled for the independent reunification of Korea since its national division in 1945.

"... He is rare among politicians in modern Korean history in that *he is revered in both South and North Korea.*"

Yuh Woon-Hyung - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Hossfly (Dec 31, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > irosie91 said:
> ...


Just what does this have to do with the riots?  Could it be that the Korean businessmen work very hard and others are jealous of their success?  Maybe they put it many more hours on the job to be successful than you ever did.  Wouldn't it be better, Georgie Boy, for you to take a bus down to Koreatown and debate what happened with the people down there?


----------



## Hossfly (Dec 31, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...


_
It is evident that Georgie Boy hates the military, but has Georgie Boy ever even joined the National Guard?  Wasn't it the National Guard who helped people in the Loe Angeles area after the big earthquake as they do after ever natural catastrophe?  Where were you, Georgie?  Hiding under your bed waiting for the next tremor?  I can't see you putting yourself out for anyone.  And I am sure that the readers can see that Georgie Boy has no problem with the taxpayers of Los Angeles contributing to his subsidized housing.  Maybe it should have been you to have a successful abortion so that the taxpayers in your city could save a little money and you wouldn't be on a message board whining about people who have more than you._


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## georgephillip (Dec 31, 2012)

Hossfly said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...


No need for busses, Hoss. I live within walking distance of Korea town and see many retired businessmen from that community where I volunteer. Most of them, sad to say, would agree with your mistaken belief that US imperialism at the end of WWII had nothing to do with economic conditions in Los Angeles forty years later. 

If Korea had united under Yuh in 1945, many Koreans would likely have remained in their country of birth and built it into an economic powerhouse to rival Japan. Funny how the Russians agreed to Korean reunification in '45 and the US didn't...maybe Smedley knows why that happened?


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## Hossfly (Dec 31, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...


Then if you live so close to Koreatown, why not ask these businessmen how they became so successful in a new country when they barely could speak the language when they came and didn't whine like you and others do because you didn't want to put yourself out and work so hard.  You could also ask them how come South Korea is doing so well now while North Korea is not.  As for the Russians, perhaps they thought that all Korea would become communist just like they are.  No doubt those living in South Korea are happy that they aren't hooked up with North Korea where many of the people are practically starving.


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## georgephillip (Dec 31, 2012)

Some of those successful businessmen barely speak English to this day.
Some of their success was built on exploitation of their workers and customers many of whom speak no English at all.
Possibly you remember scenes from '92 with armed Koreans on the roofs of their liquor stores.
Many of these stores were in black neighborhoods where misunderstandings were common on both sides. Blacks objected to high prices and Koreans objected to rampant theft.

What ever possible outcomes for Korea that the Russians envisioned, they had no problem with national elections on both side of the 38th Parallel in 1945. Not so for the global champion of democracy:

"In anticipation of Japan&#8217;s defeat in the Second World War, Yuh organized in 1944 the Korean Restoration Brotherhood (&#51312;&#49440;&#44148;&#44397;&#46041;&#47609;, Joseon Geon-guk Dongmaeng), a nationwide underground organization. He also formed the Committee for Preparation of Korean Independence (&#51312;&#49440; &#44148;&#44397; &#51456;&#48708; &#50948;&#50896;&#54924;, Joseon Geon-guk Junbi Wiwonhoe). 

"In September 1945, Yuh proclaimed the establishment of the Korean People's Republic and became its vice-premier. In October, he stepped down under pressure from the United States Military Government, and organized the People's Party of Korea, becoming its chairman. For the following months of the anti-trusteeship movement and other political changes, Yuh took a line of action in concert with the communists.

"When a movement to unify the political left and the political right arose in May 1946, Lyuh represented the center-left and occupied a position on the center between the left and the right.

"Yuh&#8217;s political stance was, however, attacked by both the extreme right and the extreme left, and his efforts to pursue a centrist position was made increasingly untenable by the political realities of the time. 

"On July 19, 1947, Yuh was assassinated in Seoul by a 19-year-old man named Han Chigeun, a recent refugee from North Korea and an active member of a nationalist right-wing group. Yuh's death was widely mourned."

Yuh Woon-Hyung - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Hossfly (Dec 31, 2012)

georgephillip said:


> Some of those successful businessmen barely speak English to this day.
> Some of their success was built on exploitation of their workers and customers many of whom speak no English at all.
> Possibly you remember scenes from '92 with armed Koreans on the roofs of their liquor stores.
> Many of these stores were in black neighborhoods where misunderstandings were common on both sides. Blacks objected to high prices and Koreans objected to rampant theft.
> ...


Regardless of what went on in Korea previously, the important thing is what is happening in today's world where South Korea is successful and North Korea, run by Communists. isn't.  And, Georgie, there are people who come here from every part of the world and they become successful by dint of hard work and not by exploiting their workers or customers.  I am not saying that this doesn't ever happen, but in most cases people can be successful without having to resort to that.


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 1, 2013)

Most of the hardest working people I've known have been small business owners.
They routinely work 70-80 hours every week to grow their businesses.
Some have been highly intelligent and college educated.
Yet as a group they are more exploited than the day laborers I see in my local Home Depot parking lot.

Conservative to the core, US small business owners vote overwhelmingly against their own class interests, as their support for rich parasites like Bush and Romney proves. It never seems to occur to them to question a tax code that places those earning 250,000 dollars a year in the same bracket as those "earning" $250,000,000 every year.


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## irosie91 (Jan 1, 2013)

georgie is worried about people earning  250,000   per year ------ok   georgie----worry


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## georgephillip (Jan 1, 2013)

*Define "worry", rosie.*

I worry when people who are educated and intelligent fail to perceive a class war that's been existence long before the beginning of this republic. Small business owners vote Republican overwhelmingly in spite of the Republicans well known penchant for serving inherited wealth.

Do you think the richest 1% of Americans deserve more income at the expense of Social Security and Medicare recipients?


----------



## irosie91 (Jan 1, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> *Define "worry", rosie.*
> 
> I worry when people who are educated and intelligent fail to perceive a class war that's been existence long before the beginning of this republic. Small business owners vote Republican overwhelmingly in spite of the Republicans well known penchant for serving inherited wealth.
> 
> Do you think the richest 1% of Americans deserve more income at the expense of Social Security and Medicare recipients?





you want to have a  MARXIST ARGUEMENT on this board    georgie?.     I was child in 
the   Mc Carthy   era------In my little nazi town ----the word  COMMUNIST ----was the 
THE MOST FILTHY  accusation.      I actually remember televised trial footage in which 
the question referred to  "card carrying communist"     and answers like  "I refuse 
to answer that question on the grounds that it might tend to incriminate me"  
I saw one of my WASP playmates slapped by her father----because SHE  had 
called another kid  "communist"   (the other kid was of Yugoslavian background). 

MOST OF ALL -----I was impressed by my father's comment    "if you were not a little 
pink" ----(during the 1930s)   " you were stupid"

   I have some sympathy for the  MARXIST POV-----after all-----I am a jew------but 
the fact is that  communism is a  TOTALITARIAN UTOPIAN CONCEPT----something 
like   islam and nazism  -----and  WORLD WIDE SALVATION THRU JESUS CHRIST---
---the three 
have caused   virtuallly all of the genocides in human history


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## Hossfly (Jan 1, 2013)

irosie91 said:


> georgie is worried about people earning  250,000   per year ------ok   georgie----worry


I think that if Georgie were still working and miraculously earning big bucks  (for instance as an entertainer making millions each year), you wouldn't see him complaining on this message board about people making money.  He would be out having a good time with that money.


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## georgephillip (Jan 1, 2013)

irosie91 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > *Define "worry", rosie.*
> ...


Your father sounds like a very wise man.
Marx got the solution all wrong, IMHO, but he was dead right about the excesses of capitalism (which have also sponsored more than a few genocides)
*Capitalism becomes a revolutionary force AFTER it emasculates government.*
One quick look at the White House and Congress should convince a reasonable person we're there.


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## georgephillip (Jan 1, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > georgie is worried about people earning  250,000   per year ------ok   georgie----worry
> ...


"All I know is what I read on the Internet."


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## Hossfly (Jan 1, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...


Capitalism is so bad that it is why many people from all over the world want to come here for the opportunities this country gives them.  Georgie Boy, since it appears he hates Capitalism, is always free to move to another country which doesn't have Capitalism and someone living someplace else in the world would be happy to take his place here.  In fact, Georgie could have left years and years ago because he probably had this idea that Capitalism was wrong for a long, long time and the person who came here to take his place might be a roaring success by now under Capitalism.


----------



## Hossfly (Jan 1, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > irosie91 said:
> ...


Why not get out more and you will see what is happening and how people become successful under Capitalism?  And how those who have not been successful seem jealous of these people who have made something of themselves.


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## georgephillip (Jan 1, 2013)

The big question (in my mind) is always how many human beings have been used as a means to an end whenever I read about the many "roaring successes" produced by capitalism. Maybe you should ask yourself if private wealth would've ever come into existence without the institution of slavery? Since private wealth can not be maintained in the absence of government, wouldn't it be ironic if humanity is forced to choose between private riches for a few or democracy for the many?


----------



## Hossfly (Jan 1, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> The big question (in my mind) is always how many human beings have been used as a means to an end whenever I read about the many "roaring successes" produced by capitalism. Maybe you should ask yourself if private wealth would've ever come into existence without the institution of slavery? Since private wealth can not be maintained in the absence of government, wouldn't it be ironic if humanity is forced to choose between private riches for a few or democracy for the many?


Sounds as though you think it would be a better life if we lived in Russia, China, North Korea, Cuba, etc. Everybody equal in those places. Riiight.


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## georgephillip (Jan 1, 2013)

That's another false dichotomies, Hossie; however, I wonder if your side prefers a Roman fate?

"Lawrence Lessig&#8217;s Republic Lost documents the corrosive effect of money on our political process. Lessig persuasively makes the case that we are witnessing the loss of our republican form of government, as politicians increasingly represent those who fund their campaigns, rather than our citizens.

"Anthony Everitt&#8217;s Rise of Rome is fascinating history and a great read. It tells the story of ancient Rome, from its founding (circa 750 BCE) to the fall of the Roman Republic (circa 45 BCE).

"When read together, striking parallels emerge &#8212; between our failings and the failings that destroyed the Roman Republic. As with Rome just before the Republic&#8217;s fall, America has seen..."

EconoMonitor : EconoMonitor » Is Our Republic Ending?


----------



## Hossfly (Jan 1, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> That's another false dichotomies, Hossie; however, I wonder if your side prefers a Roman fate?
> 
> "Lawrence Lessig&#8217;s Republic Lost documents the corrosive effect of money on our political process. Lessig persuasively makes the case that we are witnessing the loss of our republican form of government, as politicians increasingly represent those who fund their campaigns, rather than our citizens.
> 
> ...


If you believe all of this, Georgie Boy, nothing is really keeping you here.  Surely you can find a country which is run more to your liking.  How about Venezuela?  A smart fellow like you should be able to pick up the language very quickly.  When you see pictures in the papers of the happy faces taking the Oath of Citizenship, you know that these people are ecstatic about becoming a citizen of this country.  Since you are not happy being a citizen here, one of their relatives would be glad to take your place.  All I can say, if you had put the effort in your working life as you do to put down this country, you might have been more successful and would not be complaining so much.


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## Book of Jeremiah (Jan 1, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> artfulcodger said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



 You are on the right side of it and that is all that matters here, Hoss.  Using an anti-semitic website to attack Israel is a common tactic of anti-semites and when they are called on it they resort to personal attacks.  I believe it was Socrates that said,  When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.  We both know who lost this one.  Well done, Hoss.


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 2, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > That's another false dichotomies, Hossie; however, I wonder if your side prefers a Roman fate?
> ...


It is precisely because I wasn't "successful" that I'm not going anywhere until I spend ALL of that damn Social Security Trust Fund, so you can give that "love it or leave it" idiocy a rest, Hossie. Why do conservatives think the US Government is not in need of reform? Why do you think those wanting to impair the ability of rich parasites in the US to get richer from war and debt should leave the country instead of taxing war and debt into extinction?

"1 &#8212; Staggering Increase in the Cost of Elections, with Dubious Campaign Funding Sources: Our 2012 election reportedly cost $3 billion. *All of it was raised from private sources* &#8211; often creating the appearance, or the reality, that our leaders are beholden to special interest groups. During the late Roman Republic, elections became staggeringly expensive, with equally deplorable results. Caesar reportedly borrowed so heavily for one political campaign, he feared he would be ruined, if not elected."

Caesar is on his way, Hoss.
You and I may not be around when he arrives, but the war crimes we've inflicted on others are coming home to roost.

EconoMonitor : EconoMonitor » Is Our Republic Ending?


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## Hossfly (Jan 2, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...


I have to give you credit, George. You are a loyal and steadfast Obama Socialist and His Majesty is grateful for your service.


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## georgephillip (Jan 2, 2013)

Obama socialist?????
That's your coldest shot yet, Hoss.

" &#8212; Politics as the Road to Personal Wealth: During the late Roman Republic period, one of the main roads to wealth was holding public office, and exploiting such positions to accumulate personal wealth. As Lessig notes: Congressman, Senators and their staffs leverage their government service to move to private sector positions &#8211; that pay three to ten times their government compensation. Given this financial arrangement, 'Their focus is therefore not so much on the people who sent them to Washington. *Their focus is instead on those who will make them rich*.'&#8221; 

The rich are the problem here.
They have been for thousands of years.
Pick a side.

EconoMonitor : EconoMonitor » Is Our Republic Ending?


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## Hossfly (Jan 2, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> Obama socialist?????
> That's your coldest shot yet, Hoss.
> 
> " &#8212; Politics as the Road to Personal Wealth: During the late Roman Republic period, one of the main roads to wealth was holding public office, and exploiting such positions to accumulate personal wealth. As Lessig notes: Congressman, Senators and their staffs leverage their government service to move to private sector positions &#8211; that pay three to ten times their government compensation. Given this financial arrangement, 'Their focus is therefore not so much on the people who sent them to Washington. *Their focus is instead on those who will make them rich*.'&#8221;
> ...


Even though I am but a homeless pauper, I am a Capitalist and side with those who take advantage of the system, as long as they do it legally.You can't become rich punching a time clock so you wasted your life.


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## georgephillip (Jan 2, 2013)

I have wasted my life; however the truth value of that statement is independent of the amount of money I've earned.

Have you experienced homelessness, Hoss?


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## Hossfly (Jan 2, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> I have wasted my life; however the truth value of that statement is independent of the amount of money I've earned.
> 
> Have you experienced homelessness, Hoss?


No I haven't, George. And I am sorry you had to be homeless but by living in So Cal you didn't freeze to death.


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## georgephillip (Jan 2, 2013)

That's very true, Hoss, especially near the coast where puddles of water seldom freeze over even on the "coldest" nights. I know you've endured far worse, and I can't help but admire you for that.


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## ima (Jan 3, 2013)

Israel is like Berlin... while the Germans were winning the war.


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## georgephillip (Jan 3, 2013)

"Some important Twentieth century Hebrew poems have also been written about the Bible hero. More recently, elite Israeli combat units have been named 'Samson', and the Israeli nuclear program was called the 'Samson Option'"

Samson in popular culture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## irosie91 (Jan 4, 2013)

yeah  ?     so?     they made a movie out of Samson too----
if I remember correctly  VICTOR MATURE played Samson.
Why are you so fascinated with that character?


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## georgephillip (Jan 4, 2013)

Because limited nuclear eruptions on the opposite side of the planet will drive up food prices worldwide even before your heroes in Goldman Sachs start doing God's work in the commodities markets.


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## irosie91 (Jan 4, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> Because limited nuclear eruptions on the opposite side of the planet will drive up food prices worldwide even before your heroes in Goldman Sachs start doing God's work in the commodities markets.



What makes you think  "limited nuclear 'eruptions' ( sic)   will  "drive up" 
 food prices?----I do not believe that the effect on food prices in the US 
 would be predictable ----maybe  the prices of    CANNED CHOUMOUS  
 will rise-----but it is not a vital component of the average american diet


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jan 4, 2013)

jodylee said:


> A squatter state!



Certainly true, with over 600,000 illegal settlers squatting on land in Occupied Palestine!

Sherri


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## irosie91 (Jan 4, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> jodylee said:
> 
> 
> > A squatter state!
> ...



Squatters are persons who LIVE ON LAND   they never purchased.  
Much of the land that  sherri terms   "arab land"   is claimed as 
"arab land"  purely on the basis of  "squatting"    Far less of the 
land upon which jews live over there is a matter of "squatting" 

In fact  the city of Hebron which islamo nazis call  "arab 
land"    has never been purchased by   arabs---but 
has been purchased by jews three times and never sold.

In  1929  arabs gained  "possession"    by sherri's fave 
method-----slitting the throats of  jewish infants.

The situation regarding   east Jerusalem is similar  
The only claim that arabs have to the city is by 
invasion.  slit throats,  and---squatting

Some societies recognize  "SQUATTERS RIGHTS"-----in 
fact such  "rights"   are far  more prevalent in the 
americas than in the Middle east.   Ownership of 
land by PURCHASE -----is a concept more than  
4000 years.    Abraham  BOUGHT   Hebron.   Before 
Isa respecters  invaded the americas and comitted 
genocide upon the natives here-----the natives---
like the  Bedouins ---of the middle east has no "LAND 
OWNERSHIP"      The term  ISHMAELITE is an ancient 
one and appears in ancient writings    ----describing 
LANDLESS NOMADS    ------is that not interesting, 
sherri?     especially in aramaic writings


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## georgephillip (Jan 4, 2013)

irosie91 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > Because limited nuclear eruptions on the opposite side of the planet will drive up food prices worldwide even before your heroes in Goldman Sachs start doing God's work in the commodities markets.
> ...


The reasons I've heard claim the amount of smoke that nuclear explosions produce would greatly reduce the amount of sunlight reaching the earth, thereby reducing the production of food world wide. Naturally, all good Capitalists will seek to profit from that crisis.


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## Hossfly (Jan 4, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...


Don't worry, Georgie, as the good people in Los Angeles (including the good Capitalists) will see that you don't go hungry.  In fact, you probably could get a job working part time in the fields in Ventura County, and the farmers (who also like to make a profit so they must be Capitalists) will let you take home some of what you have helped produce.  By the way, Georgie Boy, do some research to find out that the wealthy Muslims in oil-rich countries in the Middle East are buying up farmland.  After all, you can't eat oil.  Maybe if you tell them that you spent hours castigating Israel and the Jews on the Internet, they too will let you share without you even having to pull up a single carrot for them.


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## georgephillip (Jan 5, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > irosie91 said:
> ...


Oil rich Muslims are not the only ones buying prime farmland outside their borders, Hossie.
Since corporate-capitalist agriculture has succeeded in poisoning/polluting much of the most productive land in developed countries, Africa and other parts of the developing world are selling much of their best land to capitalists from China to Chicago. Where do you suppose said capitalists get the idea that anyone should get rich from providing food (or water)?


----------



## ima (Jan 5, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...



China's buying up most of Africa's farmland. Herr housefly, your commie friends can feed you now.


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## MHunterB (Jan 5, 2013)

That'll be fun when the Africans wake up and decide to nationalize foreign interests.  I'm looking forward to it.


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## irosie91 (Jan 5, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> That'll be fun when the Africans wake up and decide to nationalize foreign interests.  I'm looking forward to it.




Even more fun----when the hundreds of thousands of  HINDUs 
supplying virtual  slave labor to the   OIL SHEIKS  (probably 
up to  MILLIONs)    decide to unite ----and do a gandhiji---
just sit down and refuse to move.    According to my kid 
who disembarked in some of those countries while in 
the NAVY------they are ENTIRELY DEPENDENT ON 
IMPORTED EXPLOITED INDIANS----to keep their 
countries functioning


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## Hossfly (Jan 5, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...


It certainly looks like Georgie Boy is insinuating that it is the Jews when he states "Where do you suppose said capitalists get the idea that anyone should get rich from providing food (or water)?  It sure looks like Georgie Boy has it in for the Jews for some reason or other.  Wonder what he thinks they did to him in the Los Angeles area -- raise his rent like other landlords do??  Meanwhile, Georgie Boy, speaking of water, since you are supposed to be saving water in your area, I certianly hope that you take just 2 minute showers.  I wonder if Georgie Boy's utilities are also subsidized by the good people of Los Angeles.   Yeah, those darn people in Los Angeles who actually work hard and pay taxes want to see Georgie Boy comfortable.


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## georgephillip (Jan 5, 2013)

You have a real problem responding to arguments without using fallacies.
I suspect some Jews have gotten rich by selling food and water.
So have some Muslims and more than a few Christians.
The fact you never refute a claim without resorting to ad hominem attacks on whoever's making the claim leads me to believe you don't value your own beliefs very highly. 
If you even have any.


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## irosie91 (Jan 5, 2013)

Georgie---for a lesson in POWER ATTAINED BY CONTROL OF THE FOOD 
  SUPPLY-----visit a zoo.       APES do it too.      It is not a conspiracy---
  It is HARDWIRED into the primate brain


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## georgephillip (Jan 5, 2013)

Maybe you should stop basing your morality on behavior displayed by APES?

"The neocortex (Latin for 'new bark' or 'new rind'), also called the neopallium ('new mantle') and isocortex ('equal rind', is a part of the brain of mammals. 

"It is the outer layer of the cerebral hemispheres, and made up of six layers, labelled I to VI (with VI being the innermost and I being the outermost). 

"The neocortex is part of the cerebral cortex (along with the archicortex and paleocortex, which are cortical parts of the limbic system). In humans, it is involved in higher functions such as sensory perception, generation of motor commands, spatial reasoning, *conscious thought* and language."

Neocortex - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## irosie91 (Jan 5, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> Maybe you should stop basing your morality on behavior displayed by APES?
> 
> "The neocortex (Latin for 'new bark' or 'new rind'), also called the neopallium ('new mantle') and isocortex ('equal rind', is a part of the brain of mammals.
> 
> ...




very good----you can copy and paste------food getting is so basic a behavior THRUOUT 
the animal world   (in fact also the plant world)   ----that actions directed at DOING it 
are instinctual-----the mechanisms are ---are already part of the function ---of THE ENTIRE 
brain-----even those brains lacking a "neocortex" or even a brain    Hint---amebas "eat"  (in a sense) but have no neo cortex----they do not even have a DAMNED cerebellum ----or 
a ----SUBSTANTIA NIGRA------or -----a   ----uhm   PUTAMEN

as to the MORAL issue-----the social behavior of APES ----is not entirely AMORAL--
some basic aspects of morality also seem to be hard wired.  -----in the sense of 'FOOD' 
sharing and----helping the other ape out ----


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## Hossfly (Jan 5, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> You have a real problem responding to arguments without using fallacies.
> I suspect some Jews have gotten rich by selling food and water.
> So have some Muslims and more than a few Christians.
> The fact you never refute a claim without resorting to ad hominem attacks on whoever's making the claim leads me to believe you don't value your own beliefs very highly.
> If you even have any.


Just whom do you think you are kidding, Georgie??  If you had your way, you would get on a soapbox (hopefully with a huge audience) and tell the listeners that the Jews are responsible for all the ills in the world.  Meanwhile, of course, we have seen Georgie Boy on the attack calling veterans "Baby Killers" all the time.  Right, Georgie Boy??


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## georgephillip (Jan 5, 2013)

I try to apply the universal principle of morality, Hossie.
I don't see any valid reason why it shouldn't also apply to Jews and veterans.
Do you?


----------



## Hossfly (Jan 5, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> I try to apply the universal principle of morality, Hossie.
> I don't see any valid reason why it shouldn't also apply to Jews and veterans.
> Do you?


So do I and others but you seem to make a mockery of and belittle our principles and morality


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 5, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > I try to apply the universal principle of morality, Hossie.
> ...


IMHO there exists a fairly wide gap between theoretical principles of morality and practical aspects of statecraft as practiced by the US government at the behest of the economic elites that control it. One of many examples:

"The Truman Doctrine was a policy set forth by the U.S. President Harry Truman in a speech[1] on March 12, 1947 stating that the U.S. would support Greece and Turkey with economic and military aid to prevent their falling into the Soviet sphere.[2] 

"Historians often consider it as the start of the Cold War, and the start of the containment policy to stop Soviet expansion.[3]

"President Harry S Truman told Congress the Doctrine was 'the policy of the United States to support free people who are resisting attempted subjugation by armed minorities or by outside pressures.'[4] 

"Truman reasoned, because these 'totalitarian regimes' coerced 'free peoples', they represented a threat to international peace and the national security of the United States. Truman made the plea amid the crisis of the Greek Civil War (1946&#8211;1949). 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truman_Doctrine

Do you detect a belittling or mocking tone in Harry's defense of "free peoples" in Greece and Turkey when US citizens were being lynched in his home state of Missouri?


----------



## Hossfly (Jan 5, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...


I think the readers realize that millions of people around the world would love to come to this country and become citizens, a country that Georgie Boy hates fervently and spends his life bashing it.  Why he is still here is a mystery.  Let's see -- the news said that Ecuador was the best place to retire to.  Se habla espanol, Georgie Boy?  Meanwhile, we all know that America and its citizens have helped so many unfortunate people around the world, and Georgie Boy is so blind to this as he continues his whining against America.  If Georgie Boy had put the same kind of effort when he was younger to learn some kind of trade as he puts in bashing America, perhaps he would be a more satisfied American citizen.  I don't buy it that Georgie Boy really cares that much for the unfortunates around the world.  He can cut and paste all his wants to from Wikipedia, but I think he uses people as scapegoats to bash this country where life hasn't turned out the way he wanted it to be for  him.


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## RoccoR (Jan 5, 2013)

Hossfly, georgephillip, _et al,_

The first axiom we have to understand it that US Foreign Policy is far from perfect.  The policy presupposes that globally _(wherever you are)_, what is good for America, what strengthens America, what is in the best interest of US National Security is universally applicable to every other nation.



> To advance Americas national security, the President is committed to using all elements of American power, including the strength of Americas values.
> SOURCE:  Foreign Policy | The White House



American Policy, takes as a Premise, that it is the leader of the free world.



			
				EXCERPTS From:  US National Security Strategy - 2010 said:
			
		

> Our national security strategy is, therefore, focused on renewing American leadership so that we can more effectively advance our interests in the 21st century. We will do so by building upon the sources of our strength at home, while shaping an international order that can meet the challenges of our time. This strategy recognizes the fundamental connection between our national security, our national competitiveness, resilience, and moral example. And it reaffirms Americas commitment to pursue our interests through an international system in which all nations have certain rights and responsibilities.
> ...   ...   ...​A key source of American leadership throughout our history has been enlightened
> self-interest. We want a better future for our children and grandchildren, and we believe that their lives will be better if other peoples children and grandchildren can live in freedom and prosperity. The belief that our own interests are bound to the interests of those beyond our borders will continue to guide our engagement with nations and peoples.
> SOURCE:  http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/rss_viewer/national_security_strategy.pdf



We can nail down US Policy.  But "morality" is no universal truth, no moral relativism that is accepted across the board by every culture or religion.  And US morality is anything but codified in any meaningful way.  Whatever you say it is, you will find an exception_ (if not many)_ where the US violated the principle cite.



Hossfly said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Do not mistake critical retrospection for nation bashing.  It is through looking at our past that we can understand better what we are today.  The fact that we can discuss our weaknesses, makes us a stronger nation.  By accepting our mistakes, we improve the potential of making better decisions in the future.

Does the US make mistakes.  Absolutely.  The US is the most famous nation in the world for polishing the justifications to conceal that fact.  But, we (on occasion) learn from our mistakes --- and sometimes not.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## ima (Jan 6, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > I try to apply the universal principle of morality, Hossie.
> ...



Herr housefly, I guess it must be a universal principle of morality to deport the arabs from the WB and Gaza and steal the rest of their land?


----------



## Hossfly (Jan 6, 2013)

ima said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...


Arab land? Them's squatters you're talking about.


----------



## ima (Jan 6, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> ima said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



Talk like that will get you a very moral Iranian nuke or two. Keep up the good work. I guess the ovens and gas chambers weren't enough for you folks.


----------



## Hossfly (Jan 6, 2013)

ima said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > ima said:
> ...


What ovens and gas chambers? There were no ovens or gas chambers. Them were showers and warming stations. What an imagination!


----------



## ima (Jan 6, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> ima said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



I'll remember that you're a holocaust denier.


----------



## Hossfly (Jan 6, 2013)

ima said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > ima said:
> ...


And I'll think about how you would have been a perfect concentration camp guard before your operation.  Oh wait, Frau Ima, after the operation you and Ilsa Koch could have shared the same room in the camps.  Since Frau Sherri liked your post about ovens and gas chambers, perhaps she, too, would have enjoyed a room in Buchenwald with you two and yelled out Mach Snell, Juden.


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 6, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> Hossfly, georgephillip, _et al,_
> 
> The first axiom we have to understand it that US Foreign Policy is far from perfect.  The policy presupposes that globally _(wherever you are)_, what is good for America, what strengthens America, what is in the best interest of US National Security is universally applicable to every other nation.
> 
> ...


Rocco...Chomsky seems to believe that many of our "mistakes" deliberately advance the economic interests of the US investor class (if I'm reading him correctly) If he's right, how likely is it that we will ever understand (much less correct) our weaknesses so long as we continue "choosing" between Democrat OR Republican in the voting booth?

This platform we are communicating with right now has the power to convince millions of US voters (especially those millions of eligible voter who don't normally perceive any difference between the two major parties) to get involved by voting for candidates representing already existing third parties.

Should hundreds of Republicans AND Democrats find themselves FLUSHED from the DC sewer in the span of a single news cycle, Change would not be hard to find, no?


----------



## ima (Jan 6, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> ima said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



You mean I would have made a good "warming station" attendant?


----------



## RoccoR (Jan 6, 2013)

georgephillip, Hossfly, _et al,_



georgephillip said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly, georgephillip, _et al,_
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Anyone would be foolish to suggest that most of the defense industry doesn't make out like a bandit during period of conflict.  And the Heavier the conflict, the longer the conflict, the more they make.  This is unquestionably true.  

Nether of the major political parties actually operate in the best interest of America; they are composed of a leadership that has turned from being patriotic to professional, with the intent to maximize their self-interest and the wealth of the shareholders that are their benefactors.  They want to keep their jobs and that requires money.  We have the best Congress money can buy.  Politicians wear patriotism like a cheap suit or a disguise.

There is a theory that the only way to reorient the two major parties is to vote-in a third party.  It won't happen because most Americans are too conservative and are generally loyal to a brand name.  The change is more difficult than one can imagine.  It would take a huge personality for America to rally towards in order to make it happen.  And the US hasn't had a leader of that magnitude in decades.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## georgephillip (Jan 6, 2013)

Rocco..we'e in agreement a single third party alternative isn't viable.
What about conservatives and liberals substituting Libertarian or Independent or Green or Peace and Freedom party candidates for their regular brand?


----------



## Hossfly (Jan 6, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> Hossfly, georgephillip, _et al,_
> 
> The first axiom we have to understand it that US Foreign Policy is far from perfect.  The policy presupposes that globally _(wherever you are)_, what is good for America, what strengthens America, what is in the best interest of US National Security is universally applicable to every other nation.
> 
> ...


I have the greatest respect for you, Rocco, and can see how knowledgeable you are.  I have no problem with someone criticizing our country because I know that no country in this world is perfect, not even our own.  However, I am sure you can see from Georgie's posts that he has nothing good at all to say about America, and the only thing ever coming out of him is bashing America.  I am sorry to say, but I certainly think he actually hates America even though he is a citizen here.  How bad can this country be if millions of people from around the world would give anything to become a citizen of this country?  Evidently Georgie is not grateful for what this country has offered people.


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## Hossfly (Jan 6, 2013)

ima said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > ima said:
> ...


No, you would have made a good twin sister of Ilsa Koch, the Bitch of Buchenwald.  After Frau Ima became a woman, he/she wished that he/she didn't go through with the change because he/she would have had more strength as a man cracking that whip.  Regardless of the before and after of Frau Ima, he/she must have been and probably still is (according to his/her fellow Nazis) the best comedian of his/her Nazi Bund group in New York State when the subject of concentration camps is brought up.  However, I guess the Bund meetings in his/her area are not on a regular basis, so the "spring chicken" Frau Ima, not knowing what to do with all his/her spare time goes on a message board with much older people to show he/she is an equal opportunity hater instead of finding a LGBT chat room where he/she could discuss his/her situation since the change.


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## georgephillip (Jan 6, 2013)

Are you sure Ilsa didn't live long enough to bring David and Charles into being?


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## Hossfly (Jan 6, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> Are you sure Ilsa didn't live long enough to bring David and Charles into being?


For all we know, Georgie Boy, Ilsa would have considered you a non desirable and would have sent you straight from Buchenwald to Auschwitz because you would not be considered an Aryan.  As you can see, little Georgie Boy ran to his trusty Wikipedia to tell us about the Koch Bros.  I guess when you have so little in life, the Koch Bros. and those like them must look like boogymen to someone like Georgie Boy.  For all we know, Georgie Boy might think that these men are worse than Hitler ever was.   Meanwhile, as you all can see, Georgie Boy has no problem with Frau Ima's jokes when it comes to the Nazis and the Jews.  He probably sits behind his computer giggling at them


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## georgephillip (Jan 6, 2013)

There's no doubt at all about how Ilsa and Adolph would have felt toward you, Hossie.
I'll just bet you would've spent hours polishing that Nazi belt buckle.

Good, godly conservatives just have to follow orders, right?


----------



## Hossfly (Jan 6, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> There's no doubt at all about how Ilsa and Adolph would have felt toward you, Hossie.
> I'll just bet you would've spent hours polishing that Nazi belt buckle.
> 
> Good, godly conservatives just have to follow orders, right?


Why, Georgie Boy, we know how you feel about the Jews and you have shown us how you feel that they are responsible for so much that is wrong in this world.  Adolph would have loved a guy like you.  He would have overlooked the fact that you are not an Aryan but a Jew hater like the rest of the Nazis and would have made you one of his right-hand assistants.  Meanwhile, let me reiterate -- has anyone ever seen Georgie Boy making any kind of comment regarding Frau Ima's concentration camp mentality.  Evidently he must salivate over Frau Ima's type of humor when it comes to the Jews and the Nazis.  I can say that I thought it was disgusting what Frau Ima said to Sunni Man and I had no problem understanding why he said he was putting her on Ignore., but little Georgie Boy can't seem to get his fingers working on the keyboard when Frau Ima starts in with the Jews and Nazis.


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## georgephillip (Jan 6, 2013)

*Speaking of Jewish Nazis:*

"As for Israel, its territory would cover over three-quarters of mandate Palestine, much larger than envisaged by the United Nations partition plan of 1947. *Israel would have defined borders for the first time in its existence* &#8212; which would spell the end of the Zionist project to gather world Jews into what was once Palestine.

"Israel&#8217;s insistence on being recognized as a Jewish state aims to keep the Zionist dream alive in the event of a two-state solution. A Jewish state would continue to give primacy to its Jewish citizens plus any Jews anywhere that want Israeli citizenship under its law of return.

"This project is of course resisted by the 1.45 million Palestinian citizens of Israel, who are still second-class citizens. And they have the support of a growing number of Israeli Jews who believe in equal rights for all Israelis.

What Kind of State? » Counterpunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

Putting aside all kosher distractions, Hossie, do you believe in equal rights for all Israelis?


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## Hossfly (Jan 6, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> *Speaking of Jewish Nazis:*
> 
> "As for Israel, its territory would cover over three-quarters of mandate Palestine, much larger than envisaged by the United Nations partition plan of 1947. *Israel would have defined borders for the first time in its existence* &#8212; which would spell the end of the Zionist project to gather world Jews into what was once Palestine.
> 
> ...


What kind of question is that, GP? You know I'm a republican.


----------



## Hossfly (Jan 6, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> *Speaking of Jewish Nazis:*
> 
> "As for Israel, its territory would cover over three-quarters of mandate Palestine, much larger than envisaged by the United Nations partition plan of 1947. *Israel would have defined borders for the first time in its existence* &#8212; which would spell the end of the Zionist project to gather world Jews into what was once Palestine.
> 
> ...


Oh, here is Georgie Boy right back with his Counterpunch shtick.  Do the citizens of Israel whatever their religion have the right to vote, Georgie Boy?  Are the Israeli Jews allowing all religions to practice their religious beliefs in peace, Georgie Boy, which is quite unlike the Muslim countries.  Why do you have a problem with Israel being known as a Jewish state but have no problem with Muslim states where people who are non Muslims and even Muslims of different sects are harassed and murdered and their houses of worship destroyed?  Do I detect a bit of prejudice there when it comes to this, Georgie Boy?  I am beginning to think that you are following in Louie Farrakhan's footsteps when it comes to the Jews.  I wonder if Georgie Boy has a problem with other Arabs  admitting that their brethren have it much better in Israel than they do in Arab countries.  Would it really be too much trouble, Georgie Boy, to put aside your favorite sites like Counterpunch and actually read some articles about what Arabs have said which are complimentary toward Israel.  There have been articles put up here, but evidently it is just beneath you to accept the opinion of any Arabs (or any others) who aren't  derogatory toward Israel.


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## georgephillip (Jan 7, 2013)

Do Arab citizens of Israel enjoy equal spending on their schools, Hossie?
Are Arab citizens of Israel able to purchase land?
Any Arabs telling other Arabs not to rent to Jews in Israel?
Are Arabs from around the globe invited to colonize the occupied territories like Jews are?
Israel was created as a Jewish state NOT a state for all of its citizens.

For all your constant deflections of Muslim prejudices, I notice you still haven't bothered to start any threads complaining about Arab hate. That makes me think the only reason you mention Muslim crimes is because you can't bring yourself to acknowledge Jewish issues.

"A crucial issue is how sovereign this Palestinian state would be. Would it exercise full control over its borders? Recently, for example, Israel stopped Mahmoud Abbas&#8217; envoy from traveling to South Africa to attend the inauguration of its new president. It has also introduced a rule that makes it even harder for West Bank Palestinians to enter Jerusalem.

"And if the new Palestinian state does control its own borders, would it be forced to accept Israeli behind-the-scenes monitoring of all travelers, an approach initiated in Gaza before Israel sealed its borders?"

What Kind of State? » Counterpunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names


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## irosie91 (Jan 7, 2013)

Georgie    you seem to be unable accept the stated fact 
that Israel is a state  which  exists as a REFUGE FOR JEWS 
as a JEWISH STATE      Who denied that fact?  
Its founding involved  Purchase of Land --as  part of a 
JEWISH NATIONAL TRUST------that trust can sell land --or 
actually "lease"  it to whomever it pleases just as such 
trusts can do so in the USA -----In the USA---the catholic 
churchs owns some land----it does not have to sell it to me.
In fact in Israel the Church also owns land which it does 
not have to sell to me  as does the WAQF  
If I go to a  JEHOVAH WITNESS  building and demand 
a right to live in it----do I get it?    As to renting or selling 
land to jews ----wrong again----there is quite a program 
among arabs to buy land and KEEP it out of the hands of 
jews       Gee you are such a silly guy.  Arabs can 
buy any land which is on the OPENED MARKET in Israel 

In  classic shariah shit holes----jews do not actually own 
land  -----even the land they owned before the dogs of 
arabia invaded


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## ima (Jan 7, 2013)

irosie91 said:


> Georgie    you seem to be unable accept the stated fact
> that Israel is a state  which  exists as a *REFUGE FOR JEWS*
> as a JEWISH STATE      Who denied that fact?
> Its founding involved  Purchase of Land --as  part of a
> ...


Florida is much safer. The smart ones go there.


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## georgephillip (Jan 8, 2013)

irosie91 said:


> Georgie    you seem to be unable accept the stated fact
> that Israel is a state  which  exists as a REFUGE FOR JEWS
> as a JEWISH STATE      Who denied that fact?
> Its founding involved  Purchase of Land --as  part of a
> ...


*"Who denied that fact?"*
Lord Balfour and His Majesty, for starters:

"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood *that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine..."*

Are you silly enough to believe Jews have done "nothing...which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of *existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine*"?

Sure you are.

Balfour Declaration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 8, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > Georgie    you seem to be unable accept the stated fact
> ...



By virtue of the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples enshrined in the Charter of the United Nations, all peoples have the right freely to determine, *without external interference,* their political status and to pursue their economic, social and cultural development, and every State has the duty to respect this right in accordance with the provisions of the Charter. 

It is clearly illegal under international law to deprive a people of their right to self-determination by using forcible actions including use of violence.

The right to self-determination - IHL


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## georgephillip (Jan 8, 2013)

When Israel annexes Area C an equal number of Jews and Arabs will occupy the land between the River and the sea. Do you expect all Arabs and all Jews will enjoy the same right to self-determination in Greater Israel?


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## Hossfly (Jan 8, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> Do Arab citizens of Israel enjoy equal spending on their schools, Hossie?
> Are Arab citizens of Israel able to purchase land?
> Any Arabs telling other Arabs not to rent to Jews in Israel?
> Are Arabs from around the globe invited to colonize the occupied territories like Jews are?
> ...


Regardless that you would never admit it, the Arabs have it much better in Israel than they do in so many of the Middle Eastern countries.  Instead of pulling up Counterpunch all the time whose authors are against Israel and the Jews, why not read some articles that have  been written by Arabs themselves telling how well the Arabs actually have it in Israel.  For someone who has stated that the Muslims, Jews and Christians are getting on his last nerves, he certainly doesn't have a problem pulling up his Counterpunch stuff once again like he thinks people are going to read the same old article over and over each time he pulls it up like it is some precious gem.


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## toastman (Jan 8, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> When Israel annexes Area C an equal number of Jews and Arabs will occupy the land between the River and the sea. Do you expect all Arabs and all Jews will enjoy the same right to self-determination in Greater Israel?



I think the fact that the Palestinians are even still allowed to live there is a huge privilege for them, considering all the shit they caused during the intifadas. Aything more than that is just a bonus.


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## RoccoR (Jan 8, 2013)

toastman, georgephillip,  _et al,_

I think that any further expansion or annexation by Israel is a mistake.



toastman said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > When Israel annexes Area C an equal number of Jews and Arabs will occupy the land between the River and the sea. Do you expect all Arabs and all Jews will enjoy the same right to self-determination in Greater Israel?
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

I think everyone should discourage Israel from further expansionist ideas and encourage Israel to unilaterally withdraw back to the '67 borders.  I thin Israel should move its capitol to Tel Aviv and dedicate all the pervious land to the Palestinian Authority. 

This move would prove that Israel is the better of the two parties in dispute.  If the Palestinians then break the peace, exercise the harshest of draconian measures.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Hossfly (Jan 8, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> toastman, georgephillip,  _et al,_
> 
> I think that any further expansion or annexation by Israel is a mistake.
> 
> ...


First of all the City of David has and always will be the capital of Israel. That's a given fact. Secondly I would approve any decision to further build settlements in Samaria and Judea. That's a birthright. "Palestine's" capital is and should be Gaza City. Period. Or Damascus


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## ima (Jan 8, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > toastman, georgephillip,  _et al,_
> ...



Good thing you fat fartsack will soon be dead. You're not going to make it to armageddon.


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## Lipush (Jan 8, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> toastman, georgephillip,  _et al,_
> 
> I think that any further expansion or annexation by Israel is a mistake.
> 
> ...









*NO WAY JOZEEEEEI!*


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## ima (Jan 8, 2013)

Lipush said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > toastman, georgephillip,  _et al,_
> ...



Lips, don't pop your bean! 

You weren't born in the area and have no roots in the area, so why do you even care?


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## georgephillip (Jan 8, 2013)

Lipush said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > toastman, georgephillip,  _et al,_
> ...


Since there are currently an equal number of Jews and Arabs living between the Jordan and the sea, why not decide the one-state/two-state dichotomy at the ballot box with UN supervised elections?


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## Lipush (Jan 8, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



What? Sorry, didn't get that? What exactly are you offering


----------



## RoccoR (Jan 8, 2013)

Hossfly,  _et al,_

I make my recommendation based on the potential that it is better for the overal security of Israel and the catalyst for peace.



Hossfly said:


> First of all the City of David has and always will be the capital of Israel. That's a given fact. Secondly I would approve any decision to further build settlements in Samaria and Judea. That's a birthright. "Palestine's" capital is and should be Gaza City. Period. Or Damascus


*(COMMENT)*

The ancient claims are no more valid today, for the modern day Israeli, than the ancient claims made absurdly popular by the Arabs.  

There are no ancient birthrights applicable to the region.  Even most of the 1948 land claims of the Arabs and lost property are gone.

It is important to remember that Israel today is a modern manifestation of a cascade turn of events.  Israel might not even exist today if it had not been for the fact that the UK tired of the Jewish led, anti-government, terrorism; and saw very little return on its investment.  But had they seen the outcome and the mess that both the Jewish people and the Arabs have made of the land and territory, they might have instituted stricter security measures and stayed.

*(QUESTIONS)*

What is the imperative that Jerusalem must be Israeli?  Why cannot Jerusalem be an independent City/State?

Most Respectfully,
R


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## georgephillip (Jan 8, 2013)

Lipush said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...


"A 'Hebrew' nation disconnected from its Jewish past."
A Semitic Union stretching from the Nile to the Euphrates:

"The Canaanites believed that much of the Middle East had been a Hebrew-speaking civilization in antiquity.[4] They hoped to revive this civilization, creating a 'Hebrew' nation, disconnected from the Jewish past, which would embrace the Middle East's Arab population as well.[4]

" *They saw both 'world Jewry and world Islam' as backward and medieval;* Ron Kuzar writes that the movement 'exhibited an interesting blend of militarism and power politics toward the Arabs as an organized community on the one hand and a welcoming acceptance of them as individuals to be redeemed from medieval darkness on the other.'"

Canaanism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## toastman (Jan 8, 2013)

For you ROcco..


Tell me what you think


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## Lipush (Jan 9, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...



"A 'Hebrew' nation disconnected from its Jewish past."

Sorry, not gonna work.

I remember that when the plans of making a jouney to Poland, some asked why is there a need to bring young youth to watch the remains of what is left in the European death camps. The answer to that was hanged on our class wall, which is also my answer to you now.

The written on the walls, said by Yigal Alon- * 'A nation that does not know its past, its present is poor and its future is shrouded in fog'*


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## ima (Jan 9, 2013)

Lipush said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



I'll offer you a one way ticket to the beaner country that you come from.


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## RoccoR (Jan 9, 2013)

toastman,  _et al,_

Yes, I've seen this, and similar videos before; and as a tactical explanation, it expresses the situation quite accurately.



toastman said:


> For you ROcco..
> 
> Tell me what you think


*(COMMENT)*

Before the 1990's, I essentially agreed with the entire concept of this video.  I understood the language of UN Res 242 and the meaning of "defensible borders."  At that time, I agreed.  At that time, and maybe a bit naive, I thought that Israel would be a very good caretaker of the West Bank and Gaza, and would make those portions of the area as rich and prosperous as  the rest of Israel.

However, it is more than obvious that Israel has not been a good caretaker and landlord of those selected areas _(equitable and fair with the same laws and justice for all)_; and there is no reason to believe that Israel intendes to improve in that respect.  In the 40+ years since the '67 War, the fair and equitable character, that Israel was believed to have, simply did not materialize; and it wasn't a matter of money _(financing)_.  There were plenty of sources for that.

I think that people like me, and much of the world, thought that Israel would institute something on the order of a Marshal Plan, that would promote the growth, infrastructure and prosperity of the Occupied Territories.  That the Occupied Territories would share in the advancement and economic development of Israel.  This did not happen.

Many, like myself, that originally gave unconditional support to Israel, now see that either the character and nature of the Israeli has change, or the task was well beyond their ability to construct.  In either case, the problems that existed 40+ years ago, still exist today, without much improvement over the Occupied Territories.  It is now approaching a time for a change.

No one wants to see Israel put in danger.  But Israel must understand that, largely through its misfeasance, _(in some cases)_ malfeasance, and certainly some nonfeasance, it has allowed the conditions to fester to the point that its security _(which was once paramount)_ has now become secondary to the plight and restoration of the Occupied Territories. 

There are very few that doubt that the basic concepts of internal and external security, as expressed in the video, are not accurate.  There are very few that doubt, that the trustworthiness, honesty, integrity, moral character and peaceful intentions of the Palestinian _(and the Arab World in general)_ are not in question.  But after nearly a half century, the Israeli approach has not proven successful in dealing effectively with the situation, and its inability to demonstrate the qualities of a good, fair and honest landlord and caretaker have been dismal.

It is time for change.  And the quasi-recognition of the Palestinian is a turning point.  Israel must understand that it is not the master and slumlord of the Occupied Territories.  Or it will be taken away.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## georgephillip (Jan 9, 2013)

Who's going to break that news to Bibi?

There's no shortage of religious "nuts" (for lack of a more clinical term) on both sides of this fight.
Jews have multiple nuclear weapons.
Could the UNSC enforce "slum clearance" on the West Bank and in Gaza?


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## toastman (Jan 9, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> toastman,  _et al,_
> 
> Yes, I've seen this, and similar videos before; and as a tactical explanation, it expresses the situation quite accurately.
> 
> ...



Taken away by whom ?


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## georgephillip (Jan 9, 2013)

UNSC?
Russia, China, USA...?
And...BDSmovement.net | The Palestinian BDS National Committee website


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## irosie91 (Jan 9, 2013)

Gaza is  "AWAY"      it is on its own----other than the fact 
that it has declared its intention of destroying israel and its 
religious leaders have declared that  ALLAH  wants  muslims 
to kill jews all over the world regardless of age or gender.  
That fact makes Gaza an enemy of Israel and all decent 
humans----and confers on israel the right to defend itself 
from the filth of the ideology promulgated in Gaza   As 
to the west bank----the border was not determined----east 
jerusalem was wrested from Jews in   1947-8 by virtue of  
massacre of civilians    and it's status was left undetermined. 
I do not believe that once things are  "settled"   that anyone 
is going to be satisfied and I believe that when  arab/muslims 
are not satisfied they engage in terrorism      In fact it is a 
reaction of muslims who like to emulate  "arab customs"  ---
as is happening in Pakistan


----------



## irosie91 (Jan 9, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> Hossfly,  _et al,_
> 
> I make my recommendation based on the potential that it is better for the overal security of Israel and the catalyst for peace.
> 
> ...




The imperative is justice and equity.     The conflict between jews and 
muslims in the middle east cannot be distilled down to ----JUST ISRAEL.
.    The conflict ---historically covered the ENTIRE REGION    once 
the  AGE OF ISLAMIC CONQUEST BEGAN.     which is only about 
the past  13 centures  ----that is HUMAN RECORDED KNOWN 
HISTORY -----not pre historic  australian aboriginal history-----It 
is as real to modern day jews as the person named  "jesus"  
is to  christians    It involves sites and locations and shrines very 
WELL KNOWN   as real places of importance ---known intimately.

Jerusalem is for jews---THE MOST IMPORTANT SPOT ON EARTH---
from the standpoint of jewish theology      For islam the place 
is mecca -----and the ancient JEWISH CITY OF MEDINA --from the 
standpoint of islamic theology         ---as far as I am concerned 
<<<< that fact is ENOUGH       The river Ganges has importance 
to HINDUS      Were someone to move into India and propose 
a take over of the River ganges that would somehow make that 
river  "BELONG"  to PEOPLE or INDUSTRY   other than  hindus----
I would object on the ground of JUSTICE AND EQUITY
The   JEWS FROM EUROPE  bullshit is a smoke screen over the 
fact that   the "GLORIOUS AGE OF ISLAMIC CONQUEST"   included 
not a single land that did not ALREADY have a jewish population--
which the GOLDEN INVADERS did not decimate.   A claim that 
the decimation of jewish populations over 1400 years 
in the middle east is -------"irrelevant"  ----is less logical than 
claiming that the  issue of  arab refugees from palestine is 
UTTERLY MEANINGLESS  ----in fact is it is grossly RACIST


----------



## RoccoR (Jan 9, 2013)

toastman,  _et al,_

Wow, is that what you took away from that?



toastman said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > ...   ...   ...
> ...


*(To the Question)*

Israel is losing ground and political support, little by little.  Between now, and the year 2030, you will see a decline in the use and effectiveness of political-military hegemonies.  The US is already at the point where it can no longer support such adventures.  Even the ANA _(security forces in general)_ have lost funding, even in the face of certain distaster. 

Thus, Israel will not have the support it once had in the UN, as well as direct links, that it once enjoyed.  If the International Community comes to the conclusion that unrestrained Israeli militarism over the Occupied Territories are no longer in the best interest of regional peace, the International Community will gradually place economic pressures on Israel until Israel decides that it is in its own best interest to change.

The US, once the dominant world power, is already gradually losing its clout.  Without a coalition, it could not have tackled Iraq or Afghanistan alone, with any residual presence.  While it can defeat most military opponents, it cannot stay and be effective beyond the cessation of hostilities.  And Israel will find that is the International Community decides to place a military embargo *(or take some other similar measure)* it will find that it has lost the umbrella in US support it once had; unless it turns the situation around.  It may take a while, but gradually, it will happen, just as the US finds itself in the situation that very few nations are now wiling to help it _(without cold cash and other tangible compensation)_.

*(To the Point)*

The more important point here is that Israel needs to become something other than what it is today.  No longer will Israels national defense be the plausible excuse to cover its choices in the Occupied Territories.  It will have to make some sacrifices that benefit the region and specifically the Occupied Territories.  And these sacrifices must be demonstrated by deeds and actions.

If Israel makes the change, and the Palestinian and Arab World exploit these deeds and actions, or continue their less than peaceful ways, THEN the International Community will once again bring its support back.  

To renew Israel support, there has to be a clear "good guy" and a clear "bad guy" in the picture.  If both sides are just as bad, the presumption will be that the stronger of the two is also the worst of the two.  If Israel is seen to make a sustained and clear sacrifice in making "major improvements" in the Occupied Territories, and the Palestinians then bite the hands, THEN --- the International Community will be able to recognize that the Palestinian is clearly the "bad guy" in the equation. 

Israel has painted itself into a corner.  But it better do something significant _(no marginal half-stepping)_ or its image with continue to deteriorate for cause.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Hossfly (Jan 9, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> UNSC?
> Russia, China, USA...?
> And...BDSmovement.net | The Palestinian BDS National Committee website


Maybe Georgie Boy, with his persuasive powers, can convince this Arab Muslim journalist that he has to join the BDS movement.

The Palestinian Authority's Inconvenient Truths :: Gatestone Institute


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 9, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > UNSC?
> ...


Your link, Hoss:

"Over 100 senior PLO and Fatah officials hold Israeli-issued VIP cards that grant them various privileges denied to most Palestinians. Among these privileges is the freedom to enter Israel and travel abroad at any time they wish. This privileging has existed since the signing of the Oslo Accords between Israel and the PLO in 1993."

IMHO, since Oslo, PLO and Fatah officials have been serving the interests of the US and Israel in the Occupied Territories. Part of the explanation for the rise of Hamas stems from this collusion on the West Bank.

What would Mandela say?

"'For to be free is not merely to cast off one&#8217;s chains, but to live in a way that respects and enhances the freedom of others.' &#8211;Nelson Mandela

"Horrified at the latest round of Israeli aggression against the 1.5 million Palestinians in the besieged and occupied Gaza Strip and conscious of the impunity that has enabled this new chapter in Israel&#8217;s decades-old violations of international law and Palestinian rights, we believe there is an urgent need for international action towards a *mandatory, comprehensive military embargo against Israel*. 

"Such a measure has been subject to several UN resolutions[1] and is similar to the arms embargo imposed against *apartheid South Africa* in the past.

Now is the time for a military embargo on Israel! | BDSmovement.net


----------



## Hossfly (Jan 9, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...


Do you honestly think, Georgie Boy, that countries are going to stop selling military equipment to Israel regardless of how loud you and your Dhimmi friends yell.  By the way, Israel manufacturers a lot of its own military equipment.  Meanwhile, why don't all you Dhimmis call for a boycott of Israel's technological and medical advances if you are so against Israel?   So many products are transshipped from one country to another so we will really never know how many of Israel's products are actually used in the Muslim countries.  And I doubt that those countries who invite Israelis in to help them with their agriculture and animal husbandry needs are going to tell the Israelis not to come.  I wonder if Georgie Boy, being the humanitarian he wants us to think he is, ever thought of setting up some kind of boycott against the countries who harass and murder people because of their religious beliefs.  We could always have the products that are currently made in those countries manufactured instead in Mexico and Central America and even South America.  After all, do we really need to buy clothing from a country such as Pakistan where Christians and Hindus are being killed along with the Shiite Muslims by the Sunnis?  I am sure that people realize that this BDS group is not bothered with those who kill people because of their religion.  They are only interested if Jews are involved..


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 9, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



Holy deflection, Batman.


----------



## Hossfly (Jan 9, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...


Thanks, *George.*


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 12, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...


Did you think countries would stop selling military equipment to your racist brothers in South Africa?
Why did Israel never cease military sales to another apartheid state, shit clumps?

Where did you get the idea human rights aren't routinely violated in Mexico?
Maybe you know why the "Land of the Free" has a larger prison population than any other country on the planet?
To those not hopelessly blinded by an accident of birth, US capitalism is a crime against humanity.

I think we agree about the difficulties of inflicting trade sanctions on a criminal state like Israel.
A better solution would involve banking sanctions, not unlike those your kin in White South Africa faced:

"SWIFT links 8,740 financial institutions in 209 countries. Without access to SWIFT and its interbank payment network, countries are unable either to pay for imports or to receive payment for exports. *In short, no payment &#8212; no trade*."

Terry Crawford-Browne: To end the occupation, cripple Israeli banks | Israeli Occupation Archive


----------



## Hossfly (Jan 12, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...


Didn't you already bring up that article, Georgie Boy?  Tell us, if capitalism is so bad since it creates jobs for people,  where do you think the taxpayers would come from which help pay for your subsidized apartment?  Perhaps it would have been better for you to grow up in a communist country so that you could appreciate what you now have here.  In fact, there are many ex-Russians living in the Los Angeles area (I believe you will find many of the women sitting in Plummer Park in West Hollywood) whom you could interview to find out which system they like better.  I am sure many of you realize that Georgie Boy is stuck on racist South Africa, but never will he mention that the Muslims are killing innocent others in the name of their religion in so many locations.  It appears that Georgie Boy has no problem with that because he feels he has more important things to condemn, like capitalism.  Murder of innocent people is far down on his list of things to worry about


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 12, 2013)

In case you've been spending too much time in Plummer Park, US capitalism is currently better at creating jobs in Brazil, India, and China. Finance capitalism is not productive; it's extractive and functions best when it shifts the tax burdens off unearned income and onto labor and consumers. Had wages kept pace with productivity gains over the last 40 years I wouldn't need a subsidized apartment or SSI benefits. BTW, many of those Russians currently living in LA are subsidized by the US government as are you. Obviously you find it impossible to condemn Israel's many crimes against Arabs so you compensate by posting alleged Muslim transgressions in other parts of the world in the USMB Israel-Palestine forum. Why is it you aren't starting threads in other forums criticizing Muslim atrocities in the Gulf States, for example? Are you a "Jew-Firster?"


----------



## Hossfly (Jan 12, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> In case you've been spending too much time in Plummer Park, US capitalism is currently better at creating jobs in Brazil, India, and China. Finance capitalism is not productive; it's extractive and functions best when it shifts the tax burdens off unearned income and onto labor and consumers. Had wages kept pace with productivity gains over the last 40 years I wouldn't need a subsidized apartment or SSI benefits. BTW, many of those Russians currently living in LA are subsidized by the US government as are you. Obviously you find it impossible to condemn Israel's many crimes against Arabs so you compensate by posting alleged Muslim transgressions in other parts of the world in the USMB Israel-Palestine forum. Why is it you aren't starting threads in other forums criticizing Muslim atrocities in the Gulf States, for example? Are you a "Jew-Firster?"


Just be thankful, Georgie Boy, that the taxpayers aren't complaining about helping you out with a subsidized apartment.  Nobody said you couldn't have had a part-time job in addition to a regular job like many people do so that your social security benefits would be bigger today.  You have community colleges and occupational centers in your city so why didn't you take advantage of them and learn a trade that would have paid you better?  Isn;t Georgie Boy a hoot???  Alleged Muslim transgressions, my foot!!!  Are all the newspapers lying about all the Muslim attacks even on each other, Georgie Boy?  And, Georgie Boy, much to your despair, the majority of Americans do stick up for Israel.  I realize you hate me bringing up what the Muslims are doing to others.  These things, in your thinking, should be kept under the cover so to speak and just this constant bashing of Israel should take place as if it was the worse country in the world.   And, Georgie Boy, I will think of you each time my military retirement check is sent to my bank account knowing that it kills you that men who have spent years in the military are actually getting something for serving their country, much to your disgust.    Oh, while I am thinking about it, there still is some time for you to make some money.  Just order this book and follow what he says.

:"Fox and Friends" sat down with self-made millionaire Ramit Sethi to get his tips on becoming a master negotiator. In his book, "I Will Teach You To Be Rich," Sethi says most people go wrong when they simply ask their boss for more money. Instead, plan ahead and claim what you deserve. On his personal blog, Ramit shares his trick for getting the salary you want. He calls it the 'briefcase technique.' His most important piece of advice? Have confidence and you'll be on your way to millions.


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 12, 2013)

Wouldn't it be a hoot if the rich don't exist in a free world?
Why do you think everyone wants wealth?
That military retirement check you're so proud actually comes from your service to Wall Street.
The Rockefellers and the Rothschilds say thanks, Killer.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jan 12, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> toastman,  _et al,_
> 
> Wow, is that what you took away from that?
> 
> ...



Some photos I Just viewed are a perfect illustration of how Israel is destroying Israel, they are of extremely violent attacks on Palestinians trying to form a village on land Israel has stolen They need to be posted all over the internet and I need to make copies and post them in public places everywhere. We shall open the eyes of all to the beasts Israelis have become as Occupiers  of Palestine.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jan 12, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> Wouldn't it be a hoot if the rich don't exist in a free world?
> Why do you think everyone wants wealth?
> That military retirement check you're so proud actually comes from your service to Wall Street.
> The Rockefellers and the Rothschilds say thanks, Killer.



It is so revolting to see disclosed this killing mindset we see displayed in so many posts here tonight and not just on this thread. Some of us want to save a life and some just want death and massive death.. What is it that is so appealing in wanting someone to die?  I just do not get it, I dont get it.


----------



## toastman (Jan 12, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > Wouldn't it be a hoot if the rich don't exist in a free world?
> ...




Why don't you ask a Hamas terrorist that question, you delusional Nazi. Hamas specializes in PROMOTING death to Jews in Israel. Ask him why it's so appealing to kill your self in the name of Allah and Jihad.


----------



## irosie91 (Jan 13, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > Wouldn't it be a hoot if the rich don't exist in a free world?
> ...




Poor sherri      so desperate to push an idiot cause       A criminal on a  "hunger strike"  
for the sake of a  "get out of jail free"  card-------and she styles her support of the piece 
of shit     "I AM SO GOOD--- I  DOES SEEK TO SAFE A LIFE"  
   hundreds of thousands (actually millions)   languish in the dust dying of starvation ---whilst an idiot criminal simply REFUSES TO EAT   
and that piece of shit is her  "NOBLE ISA RESPECTING,  ARMCHAIR,   HOLY,,  
SELF RIGHTEOUS CAUSE"           why  ----for a desperate bid to claim  

    THE JOOOOOS DID IT


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 13, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > Wouldn't it be a hoot if the rich don't exist in a free world?
> ...


You are not seeing the $$$$$$$!
The Rockefellers and the Rothschilds never made that mistake:

"Condition on which the U.S. entered into World War I (when it became clear that France and Britain can't cope with Germany, and Russia can no longer participate in the war) was that Rockefellers' oil empire «Standard Oil of New Jersey» will be allowed to participate in the development of Rothschilds' oil resources of the Middle East."

http://www.usmessageboard.com/general-global-topics/244363-the-great-game-of-rothschild-and-rockefeller.html

Private wealth has ruled every government yet created.
War and debt have been the principal tools.
Nothing changes until we build a wall of separation between government and private fortunes.


----------



## irosie91 (Jan 13, 2013)

I encountered muslims long ago----from foreign lands----One 
of the first I knew well told me----the ISLAMIC VIEW of 
war----quite proudly he said    "THE PURPOSE OF WAR IS 
THE ATTAINMENT OF  LAND, GOLD, AND WOMEN ----
a teaching from the koran.      At that point I had not yet 
read the koran----but I did manage to do so shortly thereafter 
when a copy of the PICTHALL  version fell into my hands.

The person who told me the islamic objective of war----
was a PROUD MOGHUL EMPIRE   pusher     He saw 
no reason why HINDUS   should be free of islamic control 
in India       He was EXTREMELY PROUD of the IMMENSE 
wealth of the  MOGHUL EMPIRE    ---for the record ----pillaged 
from hindus. 

Long ago   I read LOTS-----In the course of my life I stumbled 
upon  translations of old writings----from TALMUDIC TIMES---that 
is what comes of being a baby sitter for all  sorts of families.     
I read a translation of some traveling talmudic guy who wrote 
about his travels to INDIA -----he described immense wealth----but 
he as not too crazy about the religion there.   That was a writing
from about  2500 years ago.

In the ROME of   ----well---the pre christian and early christian era----
the   ALL POWERFUL SENATORS -----were simply the people who OWNED 
LOTS OF LAND and slaves ------that was the SENATE.     Do you idiots 
actually believe you are describing     THE EVIL USA ?  In the ancient 
roman system----the   PATER FAMILIA ----ie the guy who owned the 
household and the land and the slaves-----could legally execute any and 
all family members -------slaves,  children------I am not sure if he could 
legally execute his wives--------but you get the general drift.     

want to move further into the  islamic system?


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 13, 2013)

toastman said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...


*Wrong question, Tojo*.

Ask what level of desperation drives a human, being just like you, to strap a bomb to themselves in order to fight back against a policy of "creeping annexation" that was set in place decades before 650,000 Jews inflicted a kosher state on 1.2 million Arabs and others in 1948.

It's called self-defense, but there's an obvious contradiction involved when defending yourself requires suicide. Maybe you should be asking who's getting rich (Jew, Muslim, and Christian) from states like Israel and groups like Hamas? (It's not the families of suicide bombers or their victims)


----------



## irosie91 (Jan 13, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...





   Not surprisingly----sherri endorsed the idiot comment of  georgie   ---both of whom 
PREFER to ignore the fact that  islamo nazis  in MANY places are engaging in bomb 
on ass suicide operations  -----probably---in terms of NUMBERS OF WHORE ASS 
BOMBERS-----more  ELSEWHERE than in Israel or upon jews.    Suicide is  VERY VERY 
prevalent ---especially in young adults  ---WORLD WIDE         Any ideologue 
who wishes to use   SUICIDE OPERATIVES would have no problem getting them 
once he convinces them that for so engaging they get      ETERNAL ORGIASTIC 
BLISS-------a POSTUHMOUS REPUTATION AS A SAINT  ------and the family gets money 
and presitige and finally says -----well  "mustafa or fatima was not such a jerk afterall"
As a putative lawyer----sherri should have some grasp on the issue of suicide and 
its remarkable prevalence        Imagine the options of suicidal gazan girl has----
she could either pour  gasoline on herself and light a match----and die in agony----or 
she can    TIE A BOMB TO HER ASS and go out in an instant  IN GLORY---just 
like her SISTER bomb on ass whores in Iraq and  ---even in Pakistan


----------



## irosie91 (Jan 13, 2013)

Samer is playing his game for HIMSELF      his sense of self importance which 
is that which drove him to his terrorist crimes to begin with----the GLORY OF 
MURDER IN THE NAME OF ALLAH/ISA          not a new idea --not a new motive
---a very selfish act


----------



## Hossfly (Jan 13, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> "" I am Samer Issawi's sister, Shereen Issawi. He is a 170-day hunger striker. From the heart of the steadfast Jerusalem, I send my brother's message, saying: "My greetings to all people who have solidarity with me from all the four corners of the world. This is a actually a great indication that the humanitarian duty is still rooted in people's hearts and an indication for revealing the right over the wrong. By the will of God, injustice will be eliminated, and we all will live in peace away from destruction and wars."
> 
> Samer has been suffering from severe pains in all parts of his body, especially in his belly, kidney, severe weak sight, permanent dizziness. My brother informed me that he has a breakage in one of his rips after being beaten up by the Israeli forces in the conciliation court in Jerusalem. For this breakage which was examined by X-ray, Samer has been suffering a lot from continuous severe pains which prevent him to sleep.
> Samer assures that his hunger strike is still continuing and will never stop unless his demands are achieved!""
> ...


Do you really want us to believe that a person is still alive after not eating for half a year?  This guy has been eating on the sly.  Imagine if all the Muslim terrorists who have been picked up by the FBI and are in our prisons said they were going to go on a hunger strike if they are not released.  Frau Sherri would probably be starting a Facebook page for these Muslim terrorists.


----------



## Hossfly (Jan 13, 2013)

irosie91 said:


> Samer is playing his game for HIMSELF      his sense of self importance which
> is that which drove him to his terrorist crimes to begin with----the GLORY OF
> MURDER IN THE NAME OF ALLAH/ISA          not a new idea --not a new motive
> ---a very selfish act


I checked the Guinness World of Records and the record for a true hunger strike is 94 days. They have records for different versions of strikes. Nowhere near Samers "fast."


----------



## Hossfly (Jan 13, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...


More and more Georgie Boy is actually showing us how resentful he is that other people have some money.  If he hadn't been so lazy in previous years, he could have applied himself to prepare to get a good job which would have paid him a good salary and provide him with a pension check or he could have saved some of his salary to put into an IRA or a 401K.  In a big city as Los Angeles, surely Georgie Boy could have found a better paying job if he had had the gumption to push himself.  Now in order to show his resentment, he blabbers about people who have money on some forum while the taxpayers are contributing to his subsidized apartment.   No doubt he is also getting a break on his utilities.   He probably has the heat turned on right now to keep himself warm while he blabbers away about the rich.  I almost feel like taking up a collection for him.


----------



## irosie91 (Jan 13, 2013)

Hoss    fret not-----the schmuck is being fed by SOME MEANS ---the wheel 
chair thing is a fake --
--a broken rib?    I got bad news for the UMMAH----a person with a broken
rib  can function normally-----after a few days ----what he has for the first 
few days is pain when he takes a  DEEP BREATH   ----lots of 
people go thru broken ribs without even knowing about it and if you really 
want to----you can break one yourself 
.   ALSO ---it is ometimes a bit difficult to differentiate an OLD FRACTURED
 rib from a recent.   Old Broken ribs in  jailbirds is not uncommon 

Pain in his kidneys due to  KIDNEY FAILURE? -----that's a new one on me---
--kidney 
failure does not produce  "PAIN IN THE KIDNEYS"      
 in fact ---where does this idiot think his kidneys are?     
Most chronic kidney pain is perceived as pain in 
the low back-----sometimes a kidney stone is a sharp pain 
in the testicle   (sorry boys)

I have a strong sense that the samer idiot has a greater 
chance of dying of a WORK ACCIDENT  once he gets out 
of jail -----than starvation----or maybe that little sister of his 
will prematurely detonate in the living room


----------



## toastman (Jan 13, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



Georgie boy, why don't you review your history book concerning the first phrase in your post.

And did you just call killing civilians INTENTIONALLY self defense??? Your Nazi mindset is astonishing. Fuck, I mean, are you that brainwashed dude? OPEN YOUR EYES


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 13, 2013)

Would you INTENTIONALLY kill a civilian who was in the process of stealing your home and killing your family?
What's your definition of self-defense?
Whatever the "chosen people" decide?


----------



## irosie91 (Jan 13, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> Would you INTENTIONALLY kill a civilian who was in the process of stealing your home and killing your family?
> What's your definition of self-defense?
> Whatever the "chosen people" decide?




could you define  "in the process" ?     A process for killing jews and confiscating their 
property was   initiated and legalized in arabia ----and then in dozens of other countries 
and it is still ongoing      In fact   islamic iran uses a similar process to kill  "Bahais"  
and confiscate their property-----now that they have virtually completed their  pillage 
program upon zoroastrians and jews 

is there are a  statute of limitations upon these    "PROCESS"   actions ---in reference 
to the reaction?       Since the city of Hebron was taken in 1929 over the dead bodies 
of jewish kids with slit throats------and once jews returned the  PROCESS continued 
in a kind of  indolent manner-----did that make the action of  Dr Boruch Goldstein 
entirely legal-----gee----if so his murderers can be tried for murder.     HOw about the  
1947- 1948    starvation siege of  east jerusalem------did that justify blowing the brains 
out of any muslim child in THE WORLD?


----------



## irosie91 (Jan 13, 2013)

I am shocked-----georgie seems to believe that  the Bahai people in Israel have 
a  "right"    to kill arab muslim children for the PROCESSES of the  "UMMAH"


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 13, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > "" I am Samer Issawi's sister, Shereen Issawi. He is a 170-day hunger striker. From the heart of the steadfast Jerusalem, I send my brother's message, saying: "My greetings to all people who have solidarity with me from all the four corners of the world. This is a actually a great indication that the humanitarian duty is still rooted in people's hearts and an indication for revealing the right over the wrong. By the will of God, injustice will be eliminated, and we all will live in peace away from destruction and wars."
> ...


Have the heroic Jews been force feeding Samer?
In the same way heroic US Marines force fed hunger strikers at Gitmo?


----------



## Hossfly (Jan 13, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...


Nah, the clown has a stash of goodies in his cell.


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 13, 2013)

irosie91 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > Would you INTENTIONALLY kill a civilian who was in the process of stealing your home and killing your family?
> ...


Are you encountering difficulty responding to Israel's policy of "creeping annexation" in Palestine? Last time I looked neither Saudi Arabia nor Iran was located between the River and the sea. In the last 65 years Jews have engaged in a process that has expanded the Jewish control of Palestinian land by a factor of several hundred percent. During the past 22 years 126 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians while over 1400 Palestinian children have died at Jew hands. All of your amateurish attempts at deflection won't ever change that current reality.


----------



## Hossfly (Jan 13, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...


Perhaps Georgie Boy, the great terrorist supporter, can raise some funds among his like-minded acquaintances and fly down to Gitmo where he can see that these terrorists have it much better there than they had it out in the field in Muslim countries when they were trying to kill people.  Then he can come back and question why they are getting better medical and dental care plus better meals than he is getting.  Perhaps they will let him join them during their recreation periods, but of course after he gets down on a prayer rug and joins them in their prayers like a good terrorist supporter would.


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 13, 2013)

What percentage of those "terrorists" have been convicted of any crime?
What percentage have been cleared of all charges yet remain incarcerated?
Tool.


----------



## RoccoR (Jan 13, 2013)

georgephillip, irosie91, _et al,_

Yes, there is an interesting concept connection here, that needs explored.



georgephillip said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

There are really two issues here that have collided.


There should be no real misunderstanding on the objective of Israel and the inertia that pushes the actions they have taken.
The first is the right of self-defense, and the defensible borders issue, is one in which there is an endless hunt for strategic ground.
The second is the religious context in which the land between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean take-on; especially the City of Jerusalem.



Here we make a connection between the efficiency in which each side kills off the other, and the righteousness of the cause in which they pursue this fruitless activity.
In one sense, this is about the tactical competency in performance of Israeli countermeasures to Palestinian aggressive action.
In the second sense, this is about the lack of competency in the ability of the Palestinian to form a coherent defense against Israeli retaliatory action.

I'm unclear as to which aspect we are addressing.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 13, 2013)

Here's where I'm starting, Rocco:

"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that *nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine*..."

Balfour Declaration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Hossfly (Jan 13, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> Here's where I'm starting, Rocco:
> 
> "His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that *nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine*..."
> 
> Balfour Declaration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Water under the bridge, gone with the wind, spilt milk


----------



## Hossfly (Jan 13, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> What percentage of those "terrorists" have been convicted of any crime?
> What percentage have been cleared of all charges yet remain incarcerated?
> Tool.


Maybe when you fly down there you can question each of them to see which ones actually were terrorists or have the mind set of a terrorist if ever let loose..  Let us not forget, though, that there have been those who have been released who went right back to terrorism again.  Evidently Georgie Boy thinks he would be safe wandering around some Muslim country where these terrorists are operating.  He can make all th excuses he wants to for them on a forum, but they will be yelling Allah Akbar if they ever caught up with Georgie Boy, the Infidel.


----------



## irosie91 (Jan 13, 2013)

it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of  ............... the  Jews in any other country


You left out that part     georgie ........    remember that part?     remember 
the spate of pogroms and baby throat slitings you and yours JUSTIFY both 
in palestine and in various shariah shit holes around the world in response to 
the  THREAT of zionism------remember?


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 13, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > Here's where I'm starting, Rocco:
> ...


Just another lie the rich tell?
Like all those dominoes in Vietnam, Killer?
Or the multitude of WMDs in Fallujah?


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 13, 2013)

irosie91 said:


> it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of  ............... the  Jews in any other country
> 
> 
> You left out that part     georgie ........    remember that part?     remember
> ...


Mention that to your mom, or Lord Balfour.
Or His Majesty.
Funny how the rich manage to profit from mass throat slitting, isn't it?


----------



## Hossfly (Jan 13, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...


I think by now that we can all see that Georgie Boy hates the U.S., but he has no problem at all with his friends, the Muslims, with murdering hundreds of millions of innocent people.  Gee, Georgie Boy still has it against people who have money because he has been so lax in his life trying to make something of himself that he has to depend on subsidized housing and an extra handout from Social Security.  I know how he can pick up a few bucks.  They are going to allow the Muslims in the prison where Johnny Lindh Walker is incarcerated to gather for prayers, and if Georgie Boy takes lessons in being an Imam, he can lead the prayers.  No doubt some Muslim organization will be happy to pay him for this.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 13, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> georgephillip, irosie91, _et al,_
> 
> Yes, there is an interesting concept connection here, that needs explored.
> 
> ...





> There should be no real misunderstanding on the objective of Israel and the inertia that pushes the actions they have taken.



Indeed, the stated goal of the Zionists for the last hundred years is all of Palestine without the Palestinians. All of Israel's actions have been to fulfill that goal.



> In one sense, this is about the tactical competency in performance of Israeli countermeasures to Palestinian aggressive action.



Foreigners attacked and occupied Palestine. How do you see Palestinian aggression?


----------



## irosie91 (Jan 13, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip, irosie91, _et al,_
> ...





Mr. R.    try to simplify your question      Tinnie has expanded it to  the thousands of 
years of   INCURSIONS into Palestine  ----like VOLUMES AND VOLUMES of history. 
Even alexander was in Jerusalem


----------



## RoccoR (Jan 13, 2013)

Hossfly, georgephillip, _et al_,

Yes, this is an important historical (1917 era) document.  But there are slightly better documents you should consider and appreciate.



			
				British White Paper of June 1922 said:
			
		

> The tension which has prevailed from time to time in Palestine is mainly due to apprehensions, which are entertained both by sections of the Arab and by sections of the Jewish population. These apprehensions, so far as the Arabs are concerned are partly based upon exaggerated interpretations of the meaning of the [Balfour] Declaration favouring the establishment of a Jewish National Home in Palestine, made on behalf of His Majesty's Government on 2nd November, 1917.
> 
> Unauthorized statements have been made to the effect that the purpose in view is to create a wholly Jewish Palestine. Phrases have been used such as that Palestine is to become "as Jewish as England is English." His Majesty's Government regard any such expectation as impracticable and have no such aim in view. Nor have they at any time contemplated, as appears to be feared by the Arab deegation, the disappearance or the subordination of the Arabic population, language, or culture in Palestine. *They would draw attention to the fact that the terms of the Declaration referred to do not contemplate that Palestine as a whole should be converted into a Jewish National Home, but that such a Home should be founded `in Palestine*.' In this connection it has been observed with satisfaction that at a meeting of the Zionist Congress, the supreme governing body of the Zionist Organization, held at Carlsbad in September, 1921, a resolution was passed expressing as the official statement of Zionist aims "the determination of the Jewish people to live with the Arab people on terms of unity and mutual respect, and together with them to make the common home into a flourishing community, the upbuilding of which may assure to each of its peoples an undisturbed national development."
> *SOURCE:* The Avalon Project : British White Paper of June 1922





Hossfly said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > Here's where I'm starting, Rocco:
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

The intention is what is important; and not the common interpretation by laymen.



			
				British White Paper of 1939 said:
			
		

> The Mandate for Palestine, the terms of which were confirmed by the Council of the League of Nations in 1922, has governed the policy of successive British Governments for nearly 20 years. It embodies the Balfour Declaration and imposes on the Mandatory four main obligations. These obligations are set out in Article 2, 6 and 13 of the Mandate. *There is no dispute regarding the interpretation of one of these obligations, that touching the protection of and access to the Holy Places and religious building or sites*. The other three main obligations are generally as follows:
> 
> To place the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish People. To facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions, and to encourage, in cooperation with the Jewish Agency, close settlement by Jews on the Land.
> 
> ...



In addition to these basic "original concept" ideas, it is important to understand how the intervening history altered the intended end-state of the Mandate.  From the original Jewish state which it evolved "In Palestine" _(a British WP Term)_ there were a series of military Arab-Israeli, during this intervening period: 194849, 1956, 1967, 1973, and 1982; precipitating the expansion of territory controlled by Israel.

After these more conventional engagements, the Islamic Resistance Movement documented and formalized its overall strategies and objectives that had developed over time.  



			
				Excerpts:  The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) said:
			
		

> Definition of the Movement Article 7:  "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).
> 
> Strategies and Methods Article 15:  The day that enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In face of the Jews' usurpation of Palestine, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised. To do this requires the diffusion of Islamic consciousness among the masses, both on the regional, Arab and Islamic levels. It is necessary to instill the spirit of Jihad in the heart of the nation so that they would confront the enemies and join the ranks of the fighters.
> 
> ...



You should note that Article 32 outlines the need for an Arab Alliance against the Jewish people.  This is designated a Religious War by the Islamic Resistance Movement, with the intention to totally destroy the Jewish Homeland.  This objective and attitude has not change in the last 3 decades.  And, in fact, there are many Palestinians and Arabs that have adopted the use of this language and phrasing in the Covenant.  We have one in our own discussion group.

The clash between the establishment of the original intent, and the forces intending to destroy the Jewish State in its entirety, inadvertently caused the expansion and what has now become Israel (plus) _(Israel and the Occupied Territories)_.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## RoccoR (Jan 13, 2013)

P F Tinmore, georgephillip, irosie91, _et al,_

One cannot understand the development of today's situation unless one understands two critical points:


That the Arab and Palestinian have not been in control since before the Ottoman Empire.
That under the British Mandate, there was the intention of establishing a Jewish Homeland.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > There should be no real misunderstanding on the objective of Israel and the inertia that pushes the actions they have taken.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

You are still living in the 19th Century.  While "all of Palestine" may have been a dream at one time, in 1948, they did not ask for all of Palestine.  They asked for the piece of the territory promised by the Mandate.

The expansion and Occupation came as an outcome by subsequent aggression by the Palestinians and Arab States.  You cannot blame the lost of territory on a war started by the Arab and Palestinian.  If the Arab had not attempted to militarily conquer the Israeli, there would still be an Israel bounded by the 1948 borders. 



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > In one sense, this is about the tactical competency in performance of Israeli countermeasures to Palestinian aggressive action.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

What foreigners.  Jewish Immigration?  

First, the territory was not Palestinian.  It was under British Mandate, and before that, Ottoman.  This is just an excuse because of the greedy and barbaric actions of the Arab and Palestinian, they lost ground.

How much better off would the Palestinian and Arab be if they had not been aggressive? 

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 13, 2013)

Where does "Israel (plus) end?
Does your interpretation mean the Arabs were right all along about Jewish colonialism in Palestine?
It's hard for me to imagine a democratic Jewish state extending from the River to the Sea.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 13, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore, georgephillip, irosie91, _et al,_
> 
> One cannot understand the development of today's situation unless one understands two critical points:
> 
> ...





> They asked for the piece of the territory promised by the Mandate.



The mandate did not and could not promise any land. It was not theirs to give away.



> there would still be an Israel bounded by the 1948 borders.



There never were any 1948 borders.

BTW, you never responded to this post http://www.usmessageboard.com/6637015-post234.html That would explain the rest of your post.


----------



## RoccoR (Jan 13, 2013)

georgephillip,  _et al,_

I have to answer this in reverse order.



georgephillip said:


> It's hard for me to imagine a democratic Jewish state extending from the River to the Sea.


*(COMMENT)*

The ineptitude of the Palestinian/Arab/Persian Alliance may actually set the conditions for this to happen.  I would not so easily dismiss the possibility that future events may create a refugee flow, created by their own hand.



georgephillip said:


> Does your interpretation mean the Arabs were right all along about Jewish colonialism in Palestine?


*(COMMENT)*

No, not at all.  If the Arabs had not attacked Israel (several times), and there had developed a peaceful arrangement between the Regional States and Israel; then, in all probability, Israel would still be inside the 1948 borders.



georgephillip said:


> Where does "Israel (plus) end?


*(COMMENT)*

It can be stopped with the establishment of peace and recognition of the state.  It could recede, and the Occupation end, if the peace is sustained.   

We don't know.  The Israelis need some assurances, more than a reasonable expectation that given the opportunity, hostile forces will not exploit the relaxation of Israeli defensive posture and attack Israel.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 13, 2013)

"Joel Greenberg, writing in the New York Times notes; &#8216;At Israel's founding in 1948, the Labor Zionist leadership, which went on to govern Israel in its first three decades of independence, *accepted a pragmatic partition* of what had been British Palestine into independent Jewish and Arab states. 

"The opposition Revisionist Zionists, who evolved into today's Likud party, sought Eretz Yisrael Ha-Shlema -- Greater Israel, or literally, the Whole Land of Israel."

Rocco...do you honestly believe early leaders in Israel were not planning to eventually conquer the Whole Land of Israel?

Greater Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## RoccoR (Jan 13, 2013)

P F Tinmore,  _et al,_

You and I will always disagree on this, but it doesn't really matter, it was accepted by the UN.  Answering in reverse order.



P F Tinmore said:


> The mandate did not and could not promise any land. It was not theirs to give away.
> 
> There never were any 1948 borders.


*(COMMENT)*

The 1948 borders were accepted as part of the application for membership.  It was an annex, pre-approved in UN Res 181, which was valid at the time.

The UK had the mandate.  It was not a decision open for Palestinian debate.

LINK:  The Avalon Project : The Palestine Mandate



			
				British Mandate said:
			
		

> Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favor of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country; and
> 
> Whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country; and
> 
> ...



The Mandate is an interesting document.  You should read it some time.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## RoccoR (Jan 13, 2013)

georgephillip,  _et al,_

What people wanted to do, varies among the factions.  I am quite sure - that during that period - there was quite a debate on what should be done and who to



georgephillip said:


> "Joel Greenberg, writing in the New York Times notes; At Israel's founding in 1948, the Labor Zionist leadership, which went on to govern Israel in its first three decades of independence, *accepted a pragmatic partition* of what had been British Palestine into independent Jewish and Arab states.
> 
> "The opposition Revisionist Zionists, who evolved into today's Likud party, sought Eretz Yisrael Ha-Shlema -- Greater Israel, or literally, the Whole Land of Israel."
> 
> Rocco...do you honestly believe early leaders in Israel were not planning to eventually conquer the Whole Land of Israel?


*(COMMENT)*

Just as there are Islamic fundamentalist that have taken ancient religious text to the extreme, so there are Hebrew fundamentalist that act similarly.  However, the fact is, that the original creators did not act on those compulsions.   In their Declaration of Independence, they specifically cited Resolution 181.  The hostilities were opened by the Arabs.

No matter what the factions within the Jewish State wanted, or did not want, fate intervened, and the combat outcomes became what they are.

We will never know what might have happened, if the Arab States and the Palestinians had chosen a peaceful path.  What we know, is that as a result of their greed and barbaric approach to the establishment of the Jewish State of Israel, the Arab and Palestinian are principally responsible for setting the conditions we see today.

*(FUTURE CRIME SCENARIO) *

I have seen this future crime scenario before; where Israel is accused of plotting the regional takeover that never actually took place, but was so feared, that preemptive War was considered imperative.  This type of religious clairvoyance is now, and always has been shown to be counterproductive.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## RoccoR (Jan 13, 2013)

P F Tinmore, georgephillip, irosie91, _et al,_

I believe I did.



P F Tinmore said:


> BTW, you never responded to this post http://www.usmessageboard.com/6637015-post234.html That would explain the rest of your post.


*(COMMENT)*

I don't believe there were any other outstanding questions.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 13, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> georgephillip,  _et al,_
> 
> What people wanted to do, varies among the factions.  I am quite sure - that during that period - there was quite a debate on what should be done and who to
> 
> ...


"The Bible contains three geographical definitions of the Land of Israel. 

"The first, found in Genesis 15:18-21, seems to define the land that was given to all of the children of Abraham, including Ishmael, Zimran, Jokshan, Midian, etc. 

"It describes a large territory, 'from the brook of Egypt to the Euphrates', comprising all of modern-day Israel, the Palestinian Territories, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Iraq, as well as Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, U.A.E, Oman, Yemen, most of Turkey, *and all the land east of the Nile river*."

*Do you think Centcom knows?*

Greater Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## irosie91 (Jan 13, 2013)

the most difficult problem in the resolution of the issues in the middle east revolves 
on a very simple issue of psychology------ PROJECTION.     Jews seek----a safe harbor 
and an kind of strange ISOLATIONIST   approach -----in which they seek to be left 
in peace-----Judaism does not involve an IMPERIALISTIC  agenda.   Judaism as an 
ideology is not ALONE in this approach     In fact ZOROASTRIANS   seek the same.  
The sad reality is that  ---both the early christian NAZI approach include  "WORLD WIDE" 
"salvation"   like it or not       And the islamic approach is  WORLD WIDE ISLAM ---like 
it or not.       The projection issue is that muslims cannot accept the idea that jews 
do not want to rule them------and in general ---do not even want to know them


----------



## RoccoR (Jan 13, 2013)

georgephillip,  _et al,_

I have to laugh, just a bit.



georgephillip said:


> "The Bible contains three geographical definitions of the Land of Israel.
> 
> "The first, found in Genesis 15:18-21, seems to define the land that was given to all of the children of Abraham, including Ishmael, Zimran, Jokshan, Midian, etc.
> 
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Oh, yeah, CENTCOM knows.  On cigar night, we had many a philosophical discussions on the meaning and ramifications of these various religious texts, ancient interpretations, and the threats; as they pose the risk to peace of nonbelievers and alternative cultural subscribers.

We've seen what these fanatical believers in the mystic truths, associated with those that reveal the devine word, and find them to be most primitive in understanding the value of peaceful existence.  

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 13, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> 
> You and I will always disagree on this, but it doesn't really matter, it was accepted by the UN.  Answering in reverse order.
> 
> ...



I have.



> ART. 7.
> 
> The Administration of Palestine shall be responsible for enacting a nationality law. There shall be included in this law provisions framed so as to facilitate the acquisition of Palestinian citizenship by Jews who take up their permanent residence in Palestine.



Jews who immigrated and receive Palestinian citizenship would have the same rights as other Palestinians to buy land and to share in creating a government. There was not to be a Jewish state.  Britain tried to clarify the duties of the mandate in its 1939 White Paper but it was too little too late.



> Section I. The Constitution: It stated that with over 450,000 Jews having now settled in the mandate, the Balfour Declaration about "a national home for the Jewish people" had been met and called for an independent Palestine established within 10 years, governed jointly by Arabs and Jews:
> 
> "His Majesty's Government believe that the framers of the Mandate in which the Balfour Declaration was embodied could not have intended that Palestine should be converted into a Jewish State against the will of the Arab population of the country. [...] His Majesty's Government therefore now declare unequivocally that it is not part of their policy that Palestine should become a Jewish State. They would indeed regard it as contrary to their obligations to the Arabs under the Mandate, as well as to the assurances which have been given to the Arab people in the past, that the Arab population of Palestine should be made the subjects of a Jewish State against their will."
> 
> White Paper of 1939 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Anyone moving to Palestine to obtain citizenship and to be a part of Palestine's population can also enjoy the right to self determination. Indeed, one of the goals of the Palestine Mandate was to assist immigrant Jews in obtaining Palestinian citizenship.

However, that is not what happened in Palestine. The vast majority of Jews who moved to Palestine were imported by the Zionists not to be a part of Palestine but to populate a separate Jewish state inside Palestine.

Israel was created by foreigners, on behalf of a foreign organization, without the consent of the Palestinians, and imposed on Palestine by military force.


----------



## RoccoR (Jan 13, 2013)

P F Tinmore,  _et al,_

I will grant you, that this White Paper expresses a counter view to the position in the past and the actual actions in the decades to come.  But it is made moot.



P F Tinmore said:


> > ART. 7.
> >
> > The Administration of Palestine shall be responsible for enacting a nationality law. There shall be included in this law provisions framed so as to facilitate the acquisition of Palestinian citizenship by Jews who take up their permanent residence in Palestine.
> 
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

The Jewish Homeland was made a reality.  

It declared its Independence, 
it fought a war, 
security treaties, 
borders were recognized by treaties and armistice arrangements, 
it made application for admission to the UN and was accepted, 
and it fought additional wars to secure its territories.
No matter what we say here tonight, no matter what we believe individually, there is a truth in the reality that Israel exists.  It is a country that is recognized by the international community; including the five Arab nations that attacked it in 1948.  

The Occupied Territories are a result of a continuous series of military, paramilitary, and foreign assisted insurgent activity.  This conflict has lasted for so long that none of the traditional Occupation terminators have had time to engage.

Palestinians, frustrated that their take on history is not accepted, have formed into more than two dozen groups with a common cause to destroy Israel.  They have intentionally interfered with every single peace effort which might extend normality.  Each hostile action, meeting with failure results in their complaint that life becomes harder and more territory is seeded to Israeli domination.  Refusing to exercise any of the legal remedies on the international scene through courts and tribunals, and to formalize their arguments in a coherent litigation effort, the Palestinians persist in pursuing violence as their preferred solution.

Without regard to how unfair the've been treated, instead of seeking equity --- in a rational way --- they seek the unreasonable - backed by hostility.  The Palestinian cause becomes less and less authentic in its justification and more and more demonic ias it amplifies the "Death to Israel" mantra they have adopted under the false religious guise of Islam; and attempt to rationalize the continued conflict as a "heroic freedom fighting" effort or "resistance movement" shielding themselves by launching weapons from civilian population centers.  

They have consistently demonstrated that they are not interested in the economic, industrial, manufacturing development of the territories they purport to control.  There government is a cross between to terrorist factions that are at odds with each other and conduction bombing and ambushes on any target of opportunity, suicide bombing, indiscriminate rocket attacks, and complain that they should not be arrested because they are freedom fighters.

While there are many potential allies that believe the Israeli position needs to be reigned-in, they lose that support in the conduct of their anti-peace activity.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Hossfly (Jan 13, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> 
> I will grant you, that this White Paper expresses a counter view to the position in the past and the actual actions in the decades to come.  But it is made moot.
> 
> ...


Everyone believes this except Tinmore and he will never be convinced. Head as hard as a bowling ball and not as sharp as one.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 13, 2013)

Rocco,

While I respond to your post perhaps you could answer a question.

What is a traditional Occupation terminator?


----------



## RoccoR (Jan 13, 2013)

P F Tinmore,

Oh yeah, government-ese.



P F Tinmore said:


> Rocco,
> 
> While I respond to your post perhaps you could answer a question.
> 
> What is a traditional Occupation terminator?


*(COMMENT)*

It is generally, one year from the end of hostilities (give or take a month).

As an example, the US/Coalition ended the Occupation of Iraq in June 2004, with the transfer to the Interim government.

BTW:  I apologize for the unusual number of spelling errors in my previous post.  The kids were waiting for me to take them somewhere and I was in a bit of a rush.  

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 13, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,
> 
> Oh yeah, government-ese.
> 
> ...



OK, I just was not familiar with that term.

Perhaps it is because the hostilities have never ended.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 13, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore, georgephillip, irosie91, _et al,_
> 
> I believe I did.
> 
> ...



I was just curious because you did not refute anything I posted but you did continue to post like you had not seen the information I posted.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 13, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore, georgephillip, irosie91, _et al,_
> 
> One cannot understand the development of today's situation unless one understands two critical points:
> 
> ...





> How much better off would the Palestinian and Arab be if they had not been aggressive?



I hear that a lot but nobody has been able to say when the Palestinians went to Europe and attacked the Zionists.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 13, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> 
> I will grant you, that this White Paper expresses a counter view to the position in the past and the actual actions in the decades to come.  But it is made moot.
> 
> ...



I guess you do not disagree with this part of my post.



> Anyone moving to Palestine to obtain citizenship and to be a part of Palestine's population can also enjoy the right to self determination. Indeed, one of the goals of the Palestine Mandate was to assist immigrant Jews in obtaining Palestinian citizenship.
> 
> However, that is not what happened in Palestine. The vast majority of Jews who moved to Palestine were imported by the Zionists not to be a part of Palestine but to populate a separate Jewish state inside Palestine.
> 
> Israel was created by foreigners, on behalf of a foreign organization, without the consent of the Palestinians, and imposed on Palestine by military force.


----------



## irosie91 (Jan 14, 2013)

Had the TINNIE model  come to fruition-----Palestine would have followed the same 
path  that brought ---to the delight of Tinnie----a genocide, rape and enslavement 
fest upon the   christian population of SUDAN   ---to the delight of tinnie and all his 
fellow islamo nazis  

Had the TINNIE model come to fruition-----the fate of the Israeli kids woudl be the 
same as the IN EXCESS of a million babies who died of starvation in Biafra ----TO 
THE DELIGHT OF BOTH TINNIE AND SHERRI   

---and then the hindu kids who stumbled and died in the dust ---fleeing the same 
filth in east pakistan------1971

try to live with it tinnie and sherri------you failed this time-----over the dead 
bodies of HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS ----but this time you failed


----------



## RoccoR (Jan 14, 2013)

P F Tinmore, _et al,_

While it may appear that I disagree with your every word, and that I'm 100% pro-Israeli, I asure you, that is not the case.  Although I do lean more towards the Israeli side than I do on the side of the Palestinian.



P F Tinmore said:


> I was just curious because you did not refute anything I posted but you did continue to post like you had not seen the information I posted.


*(COMMENT)*

As I have mentioned many times, I do believe the Palestinians have several valid causes for action; relative to several different aspects of the overall Arab-Israeli dispute set.  I totally disagree with the way they have chosen as a solution.

While I agree in the right of the Jewish State to exist, and their right to self defense, I disagree entirely on their management of the Occupied Territories; and their stance and claims to the City of Jerusalem.  And I think that there are many factions in Israel that disrupt the peace process - with unreasonable claims - that go internally unchallenged.  This does not fair well for the reputation of the Israeli people.  The Israeli needs to demonstrate _(through deeds)_ that they are more honest, fair and equitable with the Palestinian than the Palestinians are unto themselves.  This they have not done.  And this casts a grave shadow on the position the Israelis hold.



P F Tinmore said:


> I hear that a lot but nobody has been able to say when the Palestinians went to Europe and attacked the Zionists.


*(COMMENT)*

Well, I would not say that this is entirely true.  Their reputation says they would if they could.

There are many facets and connections between the Palestinians and terrorists.  As a young Counterintelligence Agent, we often only did real examinations on incidents that had a direct US impact.


5 September 1972, Munich:  FATAH (Black September) killed the American David Berger, from Cleveland, Ohio, as part of the assault on the Israeli Olympic team. 

2 March 2 1973, Khartoum: FATAH killed two US Diplomats Cleo Noel, and George Moore.

8 September 1974, Athens; TWA Flight 841, FATAH killed 10 Americans.

12 April 12, 1984, Torrejon; Hizballah bombing wounding 13 Americans

14 June 1985, TWA Flight hijacking:  Hizballah  killed Robert Stethem, US Navy Diver

8 October 1985, Cruise Ship Achille Lauro: Palestine Liberation Front (PLF) killed Leon Klinghoffer.

I retired in 1989 from the Army, and didn't really reenter the intelligence and security field until after 911.  But I could continue the list, if necessary, although I think you get the point.  If I had added the number Palestinian related attacks against Jewish targets, the list would go on and on.



P F Tinmore said:


> I guess you do not disagree with this part of my post.


*(COMMENT)*

First, NO, I do not entirely disagree.

I recognize in myself the tendency to lapse into an argument that is tilted to one side when I'm trying to make a point.  While I disagree with the implication of your point, on the manner of immigration was contrary to the intent of the mandate, that it somehow justifies the violence for these many decades; it is not a legitimate solution.  But there was sufficient truth there for me not to challenge the salient points you made.  So I let it stand unchallenged - for the discussion group to balance on their own.

In the course of these many discussion, you have made a number of points which, in litigation, have substancial weight in the establishing just cause for some remedy in equity to be made in the name of the Palestinian People.  I might add, that, from time-to-time, our co-discussant "SherriMunnerlyn" has as well.  But I argue that none of it rises to the level of justification for the scope and intensity for the continued violence and mayhem that has characterized the Palestinian struggle.  And it certainly doesn't justify, in any way whatsoever, the implication that the Palestinian People are engaged in some "Holy War" _(Jihad)_ sanctioned by the Supreme Being.

It is not what you say that is so disagreeable, but the implication that somehow, these facts establish a just cause.  It does not.  The Palestinian conflict, without question, was initiated by the Palestinians and the Arab World, now supported by the Iranians, and continues to this day without having exhausted all the non-violent legal remedies at hand.  And that sets the character for the Palestinians.  

No matter what the cause, no matter what the religious context, no matter what land grant tort you establish, no matter what historical fact you uncover, there is absolutely no justification for the unrestrained violence.  How could any people justify killing a very old retired businessman who was in a wheelchair, and dumping his body overboard?  No, there is no justification.  But it does establish the character and nature of the Palestinian and those in their support.

So rather than address the validity of the factual evidence you rendered, which is _(in some measure)_ sound, I chose to let it stand on the reputation built by those that claim foul.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## jillian (Jan 14, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore, georgephillip, irosie91, _et al,_
> ...



and none of you rabid terrorist supporting liars have ever once been able to say what type of state was a 'palestinian' state... or what type of government it had... or who it's leaders were... or it's trading partners....

because there wasn't any such thing as an arab palestinian state. they're jordanians. go bother queen noor and ask her why she's not letting her people have their right of return.


----------



## irosie91 (Jan 14, 2013)

I am fascinated with the  use of the word   "ATTACK"   

from tinmore....
"I hear that a lot but nobody has been able to say when 
the Palestinians went to Europe and attacked the Zionists".



I wonder if tinmore can tell us why he locates
ZIONISTS in europe-----and why and WHEN 
does he fantasize an attack by  
"palestinians"  on zionists ?    Since until 
about  the 1960s the only people called  
PALESTINIANS were JEWS  --(zionists)  
living in  PALESTINE.  ----he must 
be talking about a  TERRORIST 
ATTACK ON ZIONIST JEWS LIVING 
IN EUROPE---by some palestinian 
terrorists      There were some 
islamic terrorist attacks on Jews ----
in europe----but I do not recall a 
specifically   "palestinian"   attack

ANYONE ???  

     the next question is --what 
            is the point of the question?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 14, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore, _et al,_
> 
> While it may appear that I disagree with your every word, and that I'm 100% pro-Israeli, I asure you, that is not the case.  Although I do lean more towards the Israeli side than I do on the side of the Palestinian.
> 
> ...



Perhaps I should have been more specific in my question. The topic at hand was your allegation of Palestinian aggression. To determine who is aggressive and who is defensive we need to know who started the conflict. Hence my question.

Did the Palestinians go to Europe and attack the Zionists or was it the Zionists who went to Palestine?

Your list of attacks are all in the middle of the conflict, not the beginning, and are irrelevant to the question at hand.



> I retired in 1989 from the Army, and didn't really reenter the intelligence and security field until after 911.  But I could continue the list, if necessary, although I think you get the point.  If I had added the number Palestinian related attacks against Jewish targets, the list would go on and on.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Immigration was a major part in the conflict. The Zionists went to Palestine with the stated goal of taking over Palestine. Britain affirmed this by having the Balfour declaration in its pocket.

The massive immigration of Jewish settlers was a necessary and very visible part of the implementation of this plan. Did they expect the Palestinians to sit on their hands while watching their country being taken over?



> In the course of these many discussion, you have made a number of points which, in litigation, have substancial weight in the establishing just cause for some remedy in equity to be made in the name of the Palestinian People.  I might add, that, from time-to-time, our co-discussant "SherriMunnerlyn" has as well.  But I argue that none of it rises to the level of justification for the scope and intensity for the continued violence and mayhem that has characterized the Palestinian struggle.  And it certainly doesn't justify, in any way whatsoever, the implication that the Palestinian People are engaged in some "Holy War" _(Jihad)_ sanctioned by the Supreme Being.
> 
> It is not what you say that is so disagreeable, but the implication that somehow, these facts establish a just cause.  It does not.  The Palestinian conflict, without question, was initiated by the Palestinians and the Arab World, now supported by the Iranians, and continues to this day without having exhausted all the non-violent legal remedies at hand.  And that sets the character for the Palestinians.



I think the evidence clearly shows that the Palestinians are and have always been on the defensive in this conflict.



> No matter what the cause, no matter what the religious context, no matter what land grant tort you establish, no matter what historical fact you uncover, there is absolutely no justification for the unrestrained violence.  How could any people justify killing a very old retired businessman who was in a wheelchair, and dumping his body overboard?  No, there is no justification.  But it does establish the character and nature of the Palestinian and those in their support.
> 
> So rather than address the validity of the factual evidence you rendered, which is _(in some measure)_ sound, I chose to let it stand on the reputation built by those that claim foul.
> 
> ...



Yours,
Paul


----------



## irosie91 (Jan 14, 2013)

Mr R     I think you are missing a point very important to  tinnie----
He characterizes the   migration of jews    in the  1800s     to 
"palestine"  as a violent attack by european jews  with an agenda
 to violently wrest   all of  "palestine"  from the ottomans and  
arab-muslims  living there----even including  TRANSJORDAN  and 
Gaza and parts of Syria ---etc etc      "palestine"  was not clearly 
defined as such during the days of the OTTOMAN EMPIRE----
-I am not sure if it included Gaza--but at times it seems to 
have included Trans Jordan and southern Syria.     
His  "attack"  by "european jews"   takes place in the  
1800s  which justifies  violent resistence  by arab muslims 
during the later part of the  1800s and the early   1900s.     
It is actually true that  arab muslims feared a kind of 
battle to create a  jewish caliphate out of a huge part 
of the middle east were sure that this entity would 
be a continually expanding empire if it was not destroyed -----
Ie a replay of  the islamic action in the area a millenium 
earlier  but instead of "MUSLIM RULE" ---"JEWISH RULE"

I learned this interpretation of events ----from muslims--
long ago------starting before  1967.   They seemed to think 
me very naive----(which would be typical for a female--thus 
I was TOLD THE FACTS )  for imagining it not to be so. 

There is an emphasis on EUROPEAN invasion---because the 
europeans would not fit into a shariah society.   Arab 
muslims did admit that there were some jews already 
living in the area but they generally had DHIMMIA 
experience somewhere in their  family legacy and 
could go on in that capacity-----but they were 
very much against an ENLARGED jewish population 
no matter its origin  -----but european was absolutely
not acceptable to them----not good dhimmi material


----------



## RoccoR (Jan 14, 2013)

P F Tinmore, irosie91, _et al,_

Ah, getting to the knitty-gritty!



irosie91 said:


> Mr R     I think you are missing a point very important to  tinnie----  He characterizes the   migration of jews  in the  1800s to "palestine"  as a violent attack by european jews  with an agenda to violently wrest all of  "palestine"  from the ottomans and  arab-muslims  living there  ----  even including  TRANSJORDAN and Gaza and parts of Syria --- etc etc      "palestine"  was not clearly defined as such during the days of the OTTOMAN EMPIRE ----- I am not sure if it included Gaza -- but at times it seems to have included Trans Jordan and southern Syria.  His  "attack"  by "european jews"   takes place in the 1800s  which justifies  violent resistence  by arab muslims
> during the later part of the  1800s and the early   1900s. ...   ...   ...


*(COMMENT) *

I'm a bit slow, but I'm getting there.  I think _(not entirely sure)_ I know where this is going.



P F Tinmore said:


> Perhaps I should have been more specific in my question. The topic at hand was your *allegation of Palestinian aggression*. To determine who is aggressive and who is defensive we *need to know who started the conflict*. Hence my question.​
> Did the Palestinians go to Europe and attack the Zionists or was it the Zionists who went to Palestine?
> 
> 
> ...


​*(COMMENT)*

I think I see four (4) distinct issues here:


Who started the conflict.
Palestinian aggression.
Palestinians go to Europe 'vs' Zionists went to Palestine.
Palestinians watching their country being taken over.

Who started the conflict is partly based on when you think the conflict started.

*[My Understanding of History (Thumbnail)]*

The Jewish People _(or The People of Israel, whichever you prefer)_ are often historically placed in the Region of Palestine _(a later Roman designation)_ dating back to the time of Joshua, some 3 millenium ago _(maybe further, being Catholic, my Hebrew history is rather weak)_.  But as I understand it, King David _(of David and Goliath fame, a story taught to all Christian children)_ unified the Hebrew tribes and reigned over the first Kingdom of Israel _(sometimes referred to in later times as Judea)_.  It covered almost all of today's Palestine _[less an area known as Philistia (in Hebrew "Peleshet") (known today as Gaza)]_.  Philistia was ruled by the people known as Philistines.  _(Oddly enough, I'm told that in Hebrew "Peleshet" means the "land of immigrants or invaders."   These are the precursors to the Roman word Palestine.  Now who would have guested.)_  Since that time, the entire landscape of today's Palestine, has been rule by the Babylonian, Persian, Greek Hellenistic, Roman and Byzantine Empires, Islamic and Christian crusaders, Ottoman Empire, and the British Empire.  But never by a people known as Palestinians (except for Gaza, as I said, who would have ever guessed; fact is stranger than fiction).​My point to this little thumbnail is, if you go back in history far enough, you might get some startling results.  And I also wanted to demonstrate how absurd it is to arbitrarily pick a starting point for the feud _(Jew 'vs' Muslim or Israeli 'vs' Palestinian, or however you want to frame it)_ based on a snapshot in time.  While we can say that the "original invaders" were historically Palestinian from Gaza, 3 Millenium ago, you can see how far removed that finding is from the reality of today.  So it is with your arbitrary selection of time in the Jewish Immigration of (today's) Palestine.  

Reality dictates that the reasonableness of the events that have led to the outcomes we see today, started in the European-WWII era; give or take a decade.

Having said that, I will not challenge the suggestion that Zionist planned and intentionally organized the gradual immigration of Jewish Families into the Mandate.  There is little question that by the turn into the 20th Century, loans through largely Arab Banks (Anglo-Palestine Bank) were being secured to finance Jewish businesses and agricultural cooperatives in the Mandate.  By the early 1930's, due largely to the persecution of Jews in Germany, these efforts were being ratcheted-up, at a pace commensurate to Nazi activity against European Jews.  By the time the US entered WWII, Jewish immigration efforts had begun to take-on a large scale image, as the activities of the German Concentration Camps became incrementally known.  By the end of WW-II, as the totality of the German cleansing efforts became revealed, the Jewish immigration effort began to operate at a feverishly rapid pace.  The world, less the hard core anti-semitic, began to show great sympathy for the surviving Jews.  Especially as stories were now openly being told of how countries like America turned away those desperately trying to escape Nazi Germany and the Holocaust.  Stories like the "Ship of the Damned" _(SS St. Louis)_ were recounted, and it became obvious that the Jewish People needed a homeland.  You may ask:  What's your point?  Well, while we may attribute much of the idea that a Jewish Homeland was important to the Zionist, in the decade immediately following WW-II _(driven by the Greatest of all Generations)_, there was an exponential explosion in support for the Jewish People in establishing a safe haven.

Did the post-WW-II Palestinian see a massive influx in the legal and illegal immigration of Jewish Families returning to their ancestral homeland.  Absolutely!  This was truly the start of the discord and why.



P F Tinmore said:


> I think the evidence clearly shows that the Palestinians are and have always been on the defensive in this conflict.


*(COMMENT)*

The evidence clearly shows that the Arab Culture, particularly in regards to the Palestinian, was anti-Semitic, having a grave intolerance to ANY foreign migration, and was totally immersed in themselves, not having any sympathy for the Jewish Plight that had just occurred.  The surrounding governments looked at Israel, in a post-WW-II eye, as prime real-estate and _(although they could not develop it on their own)_, wanted it for themselves and found the Jewish immigrant as unworthy.  (Fight-on!)  

Again, let me emphasize!



RoccoR said:


> No matter what the cause, no matter what the religious context, no matter what land grant tort you establish, no matter what historical fact you uncover, there is absolutely no justification for the unrestrained violence.  How could any people justify killing a very old retired businessman who was in a wheelchair, and dumping his body overboard?  No, there is no justification.  But it does establish the character and nature of the Palestinian and those in their support.
> 
> So rather than address the validity of the factual evidence you rendered, which is _(in some measure)_ sound, I chose to let it stand on the reputation built by those that claim foul.



The Palestinian never govern the land, never developed it to its potential, and never shared it with those culturally associated with it.  They were never invaded, they were never attacked.  And they never attempted to establish their own sovereignty.  In an attempt to overcome by force, those that did, they made their plight worse.  And now they want to concoct a conspiracy theory to justify the failed barbaric actions that have worsen their position.


Who started the conflict.
ANS:  The Arabs and Palestinians​
Palestinian aggression.
ANS:  Yes, they attempted to take what they could not earn on their own.​
Palestinians go to Europe 'vs' Zionists went to Palestine.
ANS:  Yes, Zionists went to Palestine; and the whole world helped them _(a bit late)_ in the end.​
Palestinians watching their country being taken over.
ANS:  It was never their country.  They have trouble making a lunch, let alone a nation.​


Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## irosie91 (Jan 14, 2013)

tinnie----I do not get your point.   You provided a kind of collage
 of questionable and muddled impressions regarding the history of 
 "palestine"    and then asserted that what seems in your mind 
to be some sort of fixed historic population  in "palestine"   
witnessing hordes of europeans invading their space.    Your 
impressions are very superficial almost as childish as defining 
 David as the guy who threw a rock at Goliath and  Jonah 
as the guy who got eaten by a whale-----but I understand----
I did go to sunday school a few times with 
a christian playmate.      It did not happen that way.    
The people who you now call palestinians were not a 
single "nation" ----they consisted of fragments of
 many  "peoples"   and included Bedouins who 
were densely illiterate and involved with their tents 
and sheep and subsistence living.   
---there were some---other subsistence 
living little groups who were something like 
tenant workers on Ottoman owned land ----
there were extremely dilapidated 
cities---like Jerusalem---in ruins ---Jaffa   
---all disconnected from each other.  
THE RULERS you describe----were almost 
simply NOT THERE.   ie just because the area was
 "part of an empire" ---does did not lways
 mean that the EMPIRE had much to do with the 
situation---sometimes a lot and sometimes  --
barely there.   In the 1800s ---
when jews started buying land ---your concept 
that there was something like an invasion 
is silly----they were barely noticed.    
The arabs of the area knew  jews.   
The arabs of the area were in and out 
of places that had jews.    Syria,  Lebanon,  Egypt----
never stopped having jews --  nor did palestine.
For some reason  the story  that is being told LEAVES 
jews out of the landscape until  EUROPEANS  suddenly 
appeared.   In fact jews were never entirely out 
of the landscape of the middle east.   And arab 
muslims knew who were jews---because of the 
laws that mediated something like  LEGAL 
DRESS.    These weird rules were started 
in the time of CONSTANTINE  (like 300 ad)
and never went entirely went away.  They 
were INSERTED into shariah law.
Another reality is that the population of  
palestine itself was IN FlUX for centuries---
-jews who lived in the middle east moved about --
but  muslims who lived there moved about 
even more.  Stories of  FIXED ARAB  
populations in palestine over millenia are silly--
or fixed PRE ISLAMIC populations other 
than jews----are silly.   Fact is the only 
actual fixed GROUP that stayed there 
for very long times were----small enclaves 
of jews ---and  even smaller---of SAMARITANS.

as to  DEFENSE   ---when you consider 
ARABS---think arab.   Tribal culture.   
Something like the Indians of North 
america.    They fight each other and 
anyone else available intermittently

 The history of 
arabs in Palestine is not that much 
different from arabs in arabia ---and 
that which is happening in Syria and 
Yemen today ----tribal warfare.   The islamic 
revisionist history describes the  jews in 
arabia as ----just a few more arab tribes 
who happened to be jews.   Your thinking 
is as simplistic as is theirs.   Today --yemen is 
an arabian tribal society.    The jews who 
were in Yemen as jews for millenia---never 
became  TRIBAL JEWS ---in fact---they were 
never entirely disconnected either from 
palestine ---or even from jews in other 
parts of the world.    I can expand on that issue 
some other time


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 14, 2013)

650,000 Jews.
1.2 million Arabs!
Jewish State?


----------



## irosie91 (Jan 14, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> 650,000 Jews.
> 1.2 million Arabs!
> Jewish State?



you seem to have forgotten-----MANDATE PALESTINE  was partitioned      The entire 
area called PALESTINE   varied ----from one moment to the next and sometimes 
included transjordan ALL OF WHICH was handed over to arabs and parts of SYRIA also 
handed over to arabs      ALSO    the reason  there were only  650,000 jews 
IN PALESTINE  was because  a large number were IMPRISONED in shariah shit holes. 
My husband's family spent  at least nine years trying to escape the shariah shit hole 
of his birth losing members along the way  and then there are the babies with slit
 throats upon whose bodies you dance with joy       
My grandfather was one of ten----he lost five brothers
 to your hero adolf abu ali hitler------
(he came to the USA  before hitler took austria    HIS ONE SURVIVING brother
  ----died trying to get into palestine just after  world war II --remember?   
the brits gave into the demands of your fellow islamo nazi pigs and blocked 
the ports    The existence of Israel is justified even if  only two jews SURVIVED 
YOUR STENCH AND FILTH   to live in it,  JUST AS SOUTH SUDAN is justified even 
if only three christians surived YOUR STINK AND DEPRAVITY....
YOU LEAVE OUT LOTS        gotohell piece of shit.  Your islamo nazi pig 
concept of  DEMOCRACY is ---"FIRST WE MURDER THEM and 
then we demand   "ONE MAN, ONE VOTE"    AN EMULATION OF THE 
COMPREHENSIVE GENOCIDE COMITTED BY THE RAPIST PIG IN ARABIA in 
order to create a society that LICKS ONE ASS  forever
Your ideology remains disgusting


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 15, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> The Jewish People _(or The People of Israel, whichever you prefer)_ are often historically placed in the Region of Palestine _(a later Roman designation)_ dating back to the time of Joshua, some 3 millenium ago _(maybe further, being Catholic, my Hebrew history is rather weak)_.  But as I understand it, King David _(of David and Goliath fame, a story taught to all Christian children)_ unified the Hebrew tribes and reigned over the first Kingdom of Israel _(sometimes referred to in later times as Judea)_.  It covered almost all of today's Palestine _[less an area known as Philistia (in Hebrew "Peleshet") (known today as Gaza)]_.  Philistia was ruled by the people known as Philistines.  _(Oddly enough, I'm told that in Hebrew "Peleshet" means the "land of immigrants or invaders."   These are the precursors to the Roman word Palestine.  Now who would have guested.)_  Since that time, the entire landscape of today's Palestine, has been rule by the Babylonian, Persian, Greek Hellenistic, Roman and Byzantine Empires, Islamic and Christian crusaders, Ottoman Empire, and the British Empire.  But never by a people known as Palestinians (except for Gaza, as I said, who would have ever guessed; fact is stranger than fiction).​My point to this little thumbnail is, if you go back in history far enough, you might get some startling results.  And I also wanted to demonstrate how absurd it is to arbitrarily pick a starting point for the feud _(Jew 'vs' Muslim or Israeli 'vs' Palestinian, or however you want to frame it)_ based on a snapshot in time.  While we can say that the "original invaders" were historically Palestinian from Gaza, 3 Millenium ago, you can see how far removed that finding is from the reality of today.  So it is with your arbitrary selection of time in the Jewish Immigration of (today's) Palestine.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R



I do not question the accuracy of your post as much as I question the relevance. How many countries in the world do not have a checkered past of conquest and imposed rule? How does that negate the rights of the Palestinians to Palestine?

Post war treaties created a handful of countries in the region. None of those people had lived under self rule. Why are the Palestinians unique?

1922 is not an arbitrary time. That time period saw the creation of Palestine and its neighboring states. It is a common time in the history of the region.


----------



## irosie91 (Jan 15, 2013)

you said nothing   Tinnie-----Jews have also lived in the middle east----and as a "nation" 
for a lot longer than have the newly founded   "palestinians"    As a nation ---jews 
are just as ENTITLED  to a country as the unwashed  hashemite things.   The issue in 
the middle east -----in the minds of you and your fellow islamo nazi pigs is not 
something  DENIED  the  people you now call  "palestinians"   ---it is the fact of the 
existence of a     """    "ZIONIST ENTITY"   the  "HEART OF THE ARAB WORLD"   """" 
     <<<<  read that arabist, islamicist fascist SHIT 

   somehow the heart of the "arab world"   cannot find room for their 
   BELOVED BRETHEREN----because the JOOOOOS  take up a few 
   inches         

              your filth is showing, tinnie


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 15, 2013)

irosie91 said:


> you said nothing   Tinnie-----Jews have also lived in the middle east----and as a "nation"
> for a lot longer than have the newly founded   "palestinians"    As a nation ---jews
> are just as ENTITLED  to a country as the unwashed  hashemite things.   The issue in
> the middle east -----in the minds of you and your fellow islamo nazi pigs is not
> ...





> somehow the heart of the "arab world" cannot find room for their
> BELOVED BRETHEREN----because the JOOOOOS take up a few
> inches



Not true. The Jews were living in Palestine side by side with their Muslim and Christian neighbors before the Zionist invasion.

When the Palestinians defined who was a Palestinian they *included the native Jews* as citizens.

Even today, Jews are considered equal to other Palestinians in their constitution.


----------



## irosie91 (Jan 15, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > you said nothing   Tinnie-----Jews have also lived in the middle east----and as a "nation"
> ...




LOL   try again   tinnie-----My own husband was born in a middle east shariah 
shit hole-----THAT situation has provided me with HUNDREDS of relatives  
who would laugh in your idiot face   at that  "equal"  idea----even in Egypt ---
non muslims were NEVER   "equal"  to muslims----neither christians nor jews.
Never was and never will be.     Such a concept is an AFFRONT TO ISLAM.

Even in the best of times and the most moderate of places----apparent 
equality is  at the very best ---not quite and very ephemeral  in any country 
with a  muslim majority----and often even those with a significant muslim 
minority-----there are PROBLEMS         for more information on that idea---
talk to       christians, jews,  zoroastrians  and even hindus from MUMBAI. 

Mumbai is amazingly diverse----and ----COHESIVE in the face of that 
diversity--------except for-----well----you know who.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 15, 2013)

irosie91 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > irosie91 said:
> ...





> LOL try again tinnie-----My own husband was born in a middle east shariah
> shit hole-----



Not in Palestine though.

*Irrelevant.*


----------



## irosie91 (Jan 15, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



What are we calling  "PALESTINE"  tinnie?     He was rescued from the shariah 
shit hole as an infant----and brought to palestine.      His papers were stamped 
PALESTINIAN     because he was a jew---unlike the arabs in the neighborhood  
----whom the brits did not call  "PALESTINIAN"    

I have encountered people from shariah shit holes whose parents   arrived very early in 
the 20th century-----and others who remember their arrival in the  1920s     
Where is this place you know of where    muslims and jews and christians 
are  "equal"    ???       Of course the CLAIM of equality does show up 
on some of the constitutions     even of shariah shit holes


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 15, 2013)

irosie91 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > irosie91 said:
> ...





> ----whom the brits did not call "PALESTINIAN"



Who cares what imperialist foreigners say? Palestine did not belong to those assholes.


----------



## irosie91 (Jan 15, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



try again     tinnie----the arabs of palestine did not call themselves  "palestinians" 
  when the  OTTOMANS   ran the place either-------but the jews did.    You don't 
care what the  arabs  ----"think"       ok      well      they have a right to change 
their minds         now they want to call themselves Palestinians-----after some 500 
years            when they start calling themselves    CANADIANS  ----that will own 
Canada


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 15, 2013)

irosie91 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > irosie91 said:
> ...



Why are you still playing Israel's name game?

Scraping the bottom of the barrel?


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## irosie91 (Jan 15, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



What "barrel"  tinnie?-----you were about to tell 
me about a   MUSLIM MAJORITY  'palestine'   or any country,,
   run on HOME-RULE   in which   jews,  muslims and 
   and christians all have  EQUAL RIGHTS


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 15, 2013)

irosie91 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > irosie91 said:
> ...



Already did.

You need to keep up.


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## irosie91 (Jan 15, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Tinnie----you claimed   "PALESTINE"      what are you calling   "PALESTINE"  
   some mythical  city from  1001  arabian nights ?   The Hamas charter ALREADY 
   calls for the estatblishment of a  SHARIAH SHIT HOLE   in which muslims are 
   LEGALLY   SUPERIOR   to non muslims ----even in courts of law.   and the filth 
   of the KORAN   is  the  UNASSAILABLE TRUTH ---by law    (PS  abbas is no better--
   he lies  a lot----but you prefer Hamas)


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 15, 2013)

irosie91 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > irosie91 said:
> ...





> The Hamas charter ALREADY
> calls for the estatblishment of a SHARIAH SHIT HOLE in which muslims are
> LEGALLY SUPERIOR to non muslims ----even in courts of law.



Got a link?


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## RoccoR (Jan 15, 2013)

P F Tinmore,  _et al_,

There has never been a "State" of Palestine.  Palestine is an ancient Roman name for their Administrative Region, that has carried forth unto today.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > The Jewish People _(or The People of Israel, whichever you prefer)_ are often historically placed in the Region of Palestine _(a later Roman designation)_ dating back to the time of Joshua, some 3 millenium ago _(maybe further, being Catholic, my Hebrew history is rather weak)_.  But as I understand it, King David _(of David and Goliath fame, a story taught to all Christian children)_ unified the Hebrew tribes and reigned over the first Kingdom of Israel _(sometimes referred to in later times as Judea)_.  It covered almost all of today's Palestine _[less an area known as Philistia (in Hebrew "Peleshet") (known today as Gaza)]_.  Philistia was ruled by the people known as Philistines.  _(Oddly enough, I'm told that in Hebrew "Peleshet" means the "land of immigrants or invaders."   These are the precursors to the Roman word Palestine.  Now who would have guested.)_  Since that time, the entire landscape of today's Palestine, has been rule by the Babylonian, Persian, Greek Hellenistic, Roman and Byzantine Empires, Islamic and Christian crusaders, Ottoman Empire, and the British Empire.  But never by a people known as Palestinians (except for Gaza, as I said, who would have ever guessed; fact is stranger than fiction).​My point to this little thumbnail is, if you go back in history far enough, you might get some startling results.  And I also wanted to demonstrate how absurd it is to arbitrarily pick a starting point for the feud _(Jew 'vs' Muslim or Israeli 'vs' Palestinian, or however you want to frame it)_ based on a snapshot in time.  While we can say that the "original invaders" were historically Palestinian from Gaza, 3 Millenium ago, you can see how far removed that finding is from the reality of today.  So it is with your arbitrary selection of time in the Jewish Immigration of (today's) Palestine.
> ...


*(QUESTIONS)*


Who created "The State of Palestine" in 1922?
Who was the "Head of State?"
Where was the seat of government?
Where is the Declaration of Independence?

*(NOTATION)*


Council of the League of Nations  created the "British" Mandate for Palestine in July '22.
The Memorandum for Jordan (taking half of Palestine) amended the Mandate in  September '22 with a one year transition period; ending September '23
Reference Text: Mandate for Palestine text/League of Nations decision confirming the Principal Allied Powers' agreement on the territory of Palestine (12 August 1922)

[*]PREAMBLE:  Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have agreed, for the purpose of giving effect to the provisions of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations, to entrust to a Mandatory selected by the said Powers the administration of the territory of Palestine, which formerly belonged to the Turkish Empire, within such boundaries as may be fixed by them;​



PREAMBLE:  Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have selected His Britannic Majesty as the Mandatory for Palestine;

Article 7:  The Administration of Palestine shall be responsible for enacting a nationality law. There shall be included in this law provisions framed so as to facilitate the acquisition of Palestinian citizenship by Jews who take up their permanent residence in Palestine.​
​
The "British" Mandate for Palestine terminated on 14 May with the creation of the State of Israel on the 15th of May 1948.

*(COMMENT)*

They (The UN) did not create a "State of Palestine."  The "Palestinians did not announce independence.  In fact, they various agencies and organizations that perport to speak on behalf of the Palestinians, rejected the offer of statehood.  If any recognized authority had declared Palestinian Independence, it wouldn't be necessary for Mahmoud Abbas to go through all the trouble he has, to get recognition, and he is only part way now.


The Allied Powers through the UN (LoN) assigned the UK as the Mandatory over Palestine with all Administration.
The (UK) Administration of Palestine had responsibility for "nationality laws." 
The Palestinian had no authority whatsoever that was not delegated by the UK as the Mandatory under the ultimate authority of the Allied Powers using the UN(LON) mechanism.  _(*Special Note:*  When the Mandate speaks of the "Administration of Palestine," they are speaking of an entity of HM Government.  Local administration 'v' central administration was preferred.)_



P F Tinmore said:


> Post war treaties created a handful of countries in the region. None of those people had lived under self rule. Why are the Palestinians unique?



*(COMMENT)*

The Mandate did not establish either the "State of Israel" or the "State of Palestine."  The "State of Israel" was created by the Israelis in their Declaration of Independence _(using the UN mechanisms, the same as Mahmoud Abbas is doing today)_; something the Palestinians did not bother to do.  The Palestinian/Arab World rather - went to war instead _(violence as the first solution, not diplomacy)_.  The lack of skill in diplomacy, and their cultural propensity for violence were a  definite drawback.  It set the stage for the cascade series of failures that the the warlike inertia has carried into the present day.  Still, the preferred method of settling disputes in the Palestinian culture is violence; the very thing that lost their chances for statehood, not just once; but twice. 

Most Respectfully,
R


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## irosie91 (Jan 15, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...




I do not hand out links for  COMMON KNOWLEGE issues      you are just being an A-hole
    Yes  that filth is part of the   HAMAS CHARTER-----but even if it were not 
    ALL   majority islamic lands are ALWAYS IN DANGER of an ISLAMIC REVIVAL  
   ---it is happening to one of the LEAST LIKELY------TURKEY    nothing new   
  a kind of periodic illness   historically


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 15, 2013)

irosie91 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > irosie91 said:
> ...



That is what I thought.

All you have is irrelevant blabber.


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## irosie91 (Jan 15, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



That is what I thought----all you have is OBSCENITY  and love of  GENOCIDAL FILTH ---
   That which you support has been responsible for  genocide of  
       HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS----and counting---more rapes and more  
             obscene mutilation murders to  ENTERTAIN THE PERVERTED    
                  and render for the really perverted joiners   A SENSE OF TRIUMPH
                          and POWER
      a fact which obviously  IS A TURN ON FOR THE GROSSLY PERVERTED


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## irosie91 (Jan 15, 2013)

BTW    tinnie----did you find that    HOME RULED COUNTRY WITH ISLAMIC 
MAJORITY -----in which   muslims and jews and christians all ENJOY EQUAL RIGHTS  
and THE RELIGIONS ARE JUDGED EQUAL IN VALUE?


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 15, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> They (The UN) did not create a "State of Palestine."  The "Palestinians did not announce independence.  In fact, they various agencies and organizations that perport to speak on behalf of the Palestinians, rejected the offer of statehood.  If any recognized authority had declared Palestinian Independence, it wouldn't be necessary for Mahmoud Abbas to go through all the trouble he has, to get recognition, and he is only part way now.



Of course none of that is true.

About 80 local Palestinian leaders got together in 1948 and declared independence on the territory within its defined borders. (Israel declared independence without defined territory.) A state does not need recognition to be a state.



> ARTICLE 3
> 
> The political existence of the state is independent of recognition by the other states. Even before recognition the state has the right to defend its integrity and independence, to provide for its conservation and prosperity, and consequently to organize itself as it sees fit, to legislate upon its interests, administer its services, and to define the jurisdiction and competence of its courts.
> 
> The Avalon Project : Convention on Rights and Duties of States (inter-American); December 26, 1933



The Palestinians never rejected the offer of statehood.


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## irosie91 (Jan 15, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > *(COMMENT)*
> ...




LOL    the muslim leaders got together and   DECLARED  a  STATE WITH EQUALITY FOR ALL           sure---just 
like   SUDAN is a   STATE WTH EQUALITY FOR ALL  -----and PAKISTAN IS A  STATE      ---with EQUALITY FOR ALL           good idea      That     was about the time 
my grandfather's brother died  trying to make it into Palestine      and it was 
about the time that  the  muslims of   ADEN    did a throat slitting fest on  the jews 
waiting in that PORT CITY to make their escape        (1947)    It was about the time 
the TUNISIAN jews were placed under attack too.     ALL FREE AND EQUAL     
Ask Roudy about the attack on the jews of Baghdad-----all  FREE AND EQUAL


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 15, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > *(COMMENT)*
> ...



PALESTINE PROGRESS REPORT OF THE UNITED NATIONS
MEDIATOR ON PALESTINE

CABLEGRAM DATED 28 SEPTEMBER 1948 FROM THE PREMIER AND
ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT
TO THE SECRETARY-GENERAL CONCERNING
CONSTITUTION OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT


28 September 1948


I HAVE THE HONOR TO INFORM YOUR EXCELLENCY THAT IN VIRTUE OF THE NATURAL RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE OF PALESTINE FOR SELF-DETERMINATION WHICH PRINCIPLE IS SUPPORTED BY THE CHARTERS OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS, THE UNITED NATIONS AND OTHERS AND IN VIEW OF THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE OVER PALESTINE WHICH HAD PREVENTED THE ARABS FROM EXERCISING THEIR INDEPENDENCE, THE ARABS OF PALESTINE WHO ARE THE OWNERS OF THE COUNTRY AND ITS INDIGENOUS INHABITANTS AND WHO CONSTITUTE THE GREAT MAJORITY OF ITS LEGAL POPULATION HAVE SOLEMNLY RESOLVED TO DECLARE PALESTINE IN ITS ENTIRETY AND WITHIN ITS BOUNDARIES AS ESTABLISHED BEFORE THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE AN INDEPENDENT STATE AND CONSTITUTED A GOVERNMENT UNDER THE NAME OF THE ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT DERIVING ITS AUTHORITY FROM A REPRESENTATIVE COUNCIL BASED ON DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES AND AIMING TO SAFEGUARD THE RIGHTS OF MINORITIES AND FOREIGNERS PROTECT THE HOLY PLACES AND GUARANTEE FREEDOM OF WORSHIP TO ALL COMMUNITIES

AHMED HILMI PASHA
PREMIER AND ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY 

A/C.1/330 of 14 October 1948


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## RoccoR (Jan 15, 2013)

P F Tinmore,  _et al,_

I thought part of this, deserved a special answer.  Separate from the other.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > The Jewish People _(or The People of Israel, whichever you prefer)_ are often historically placed in the Region of Palestine _(a later Roman designation)_ dating back to the time of Joshua, some 3 millenium ago _(maybe further, being Catholic, my Hebrew history is rather weak)_.  But as I understand it, King David _(of David and Goliath fame, a story taught to all Christian children)_ unified the Hebrew tribes and reigned over the first Kingdom of Israel _(sometimes referred to in later times as Judea)_.  It covered almost all of today's Palestine _[less an area known as Philistia (in Hebrew "Peleshet") (known today as Gaza)]_.  Philistia was ruled by the people known as Philistines.  _(Oddly enough, I'm told that in Hebrew "Peleshet" means the "land of immigrants or invaders."   These are the precursors to the Roman word Palestine.  Now who would have guested.)_  Since that time, the entire landscape of today's Palestine, has been rule by the Babylonian, Persian, Greek Hellenistic, Roman and Byzantine Empires, Islamic and Christian crusaders, Ottoman Empire, and the British Empire.  But never by a people known as Palestinians (except for Gaza, as I said, who would have ever guessed; fact is stranger than fiction).​My point to this little thumbnail is, if you go back in history far enough, you might get some startling results.  And I also wanted to demonstrate how absurd it is to arbitrarily pick a starting point for the feud _(Jew 'vs' Muslim or Israeli 'vs' Palestinian, or however you want to frame it)_ based on a snapshot in time.  While we can say that the "original invaders" were historically Palestinian from Gaza, 3 Millenium ago, you can see how far removed that finding is from the reality of today.  So it is with your arbitrary selection of time in the Jewish Immigration of (today's) Palestine.
> ...


*(THOUGHTS)*

Thought the Middle East, and even up through Afghanistan and into China, nomadic tribes and transient cultures are often secondary to the establishment of international governments, kindoms, republics, etc.  The Kurds have experienced this, and you already know that Jordan is a Hashemite Kingdom, not of any tribe or culture organic to the region.  The longevity of Palestinian residence, themselves once considered immigrants, is no different.  The feud between the Palestinians and Israelis is very similar to the famous Appalachian Region HatfieldMcCoy feud (18631891), where two clans nearly rendered each other extinct before it ended; the principle difference between being that neither side in the Palestinians and Israelis feud is mature enough to adopt a solution yet.

No one ever negated the rights of the Palestinian.  The Jewish population just acted faster and smart on their option; while the Palestinian chose another path, the path of violence.  If the Palestinian solution had worked, it would have settled everything.  But it was a gamble and they lost.  Now they want their money back.  Well, that chance is long gone.  But like the addicted compulsive gamble that doesn't know when to cut their losses and leave the table, they fight on; creating hardships for everyone concerned.

*(COMMENT)*

For more than 3 Millenium _(that is 3000 years, or 1,095,000 days)_, countless wars and conflicts, the Palestinian has never had a representative government _(never - no record at all of any Palestinian taking the reigns of leadership and building a nation)_.  Does that give you pause to think.

On the other hand, when we speak of the Israeli, we are basically taking about the Jews, who has been in the region just as long (maybe longer).  These were Pharaoh's engineers that made the Great Pyramids possible, that captured Jerusalem a 1000 years before Christ.  These are the people that gave us historic figures like Abraham, Moses, David, and Solomon.  It is from this linage that we got Albert Einstein, Sigmund Freud, and Leonard Nimoy (my favorite).  

I am often reminded that the Israeli's number over 800 as Nobel Laureates; the Palestinians but one, and that was Yassar Arafat in 1994.

We are talking about initiative here.  

It is not characteristic of the Palestinian to exercise the same level of initiative as its counterpart Israeli.  This is not a bad thing, but it helps explain why the histories and accomplishments are so radically different.


*QUESTION:*  "How does that negate the rights of the Palestinians to Palestine?"

*ANS:*  It doesn't and it never did.  This is a false conclusion.  It assumes that someone, some thing, some agency, prevented the Palestinian from working toward and attaining the same objective as the Israel (by comparison).  The Palestinian did not opt to advance the same objective.​
Most Respectfully,
R


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## RoccoR (Jan 15, 2013)

P F Tinmore,  _et al,_

I disagree.



P F Tinmore said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...





			
				RoccoR said:
			
		

> Again I disagree with your history.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



PALESTINE PROGRESS REPORT OF THE UNITED NATIONS
MEDIATOR ON PALESTINE

CABLEGRAM DATED 28 SEPTEMBER 1948 FROM THE PREMIER AND
ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT
TO THE SECRETARY-GENERAL CONCERNING
CONSTITUTION OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT


28 September 1948


I HAVE THE HONOR TO INFORM YOUR EXCELLENCY THAT IN VIRTUE OF THE NATURAL RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE OF PALESTINE FOR SELF-DETERMINATION WHICH PRINCIPLE IS SUPPORTED BY THE CHARTERS OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS, THE UNITED NATIONS AND OTHERS AND IN VIEW OF THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE OVER PALESTINE WHICH HAD PREVENTED THE ARABS FROM EXERCISING THEIR INDEPENDENCE, THE ARABS OF PALESTINE WHO ARE THE OWNERS OF THE COUNTRY AND ITS INDIGENOUS INHABITANTS AND WHO CONSTITUTE THE GREAT MAJORITY OF ITS LEGAL POPULATION HAVE SOLEMNLY RESOLVED TO DECLARE PALESTINE IN ITS ENTIRETY AND WITHIN ITS BOUNDARIES AS ESTABLISHED BEFORE THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE AN INDEPENDENT STATE AND CONSTITUTED A GOVERNMENT UNDER THE NAME OF THE ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT DERIVING ITS AUTHORITY FROM A REPRESENTATIVE COUNCIL BASED ON DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES AND AIMING TO SAFEGUARD THE RIGHTS OF MINORITIES AND FOREIGNERS PROTECT THE HOLY PLACES AND GUARANTEE FREEDOM OF WORSHIP TO ALL COMMUNITIES

AHMED HILMI PASHA
PREMIER AND ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY 

A/C.1/330 of 14 October 1948[/QUOTE]
*(COMMENT)*

I can just see the look on the UN Mediator's face when he got this.  This does not constitute an application.  But, whatever it might be interpreted as, I'm sure it got the recognition it deserved.



> Ahmed Hilmi Pasha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Prime Minister of All-Palestine Government
> 
> On 9 July 1948, following the declaration of Israeli statehood, the Arab League set up the Administrative Council for Palestine, chaired by Hilmi. On 22 September the National Assembly was set up in Gaza, with Haj Amin Husseini as President and Hilmi as Prime Minister.[citation needed] The assembly ceased to function following the Israeli army victories in Southern Palestine and the Arab Legion assuming control over Bethlehem and Hebron.[citation needed] In 1949 Hilmi became a district military governor in the West Bank and later he served as the Palestinian representative to the Arab League.[8]



The assumption was made by General Pasha that the Arab Armys would win, eliminating the State of Israel and then replacing it with an even larger state of Palestine.  That never came to pass.  This was just another attempted shortcut by the Palestinians that failed.  Also notice, that is wasn't even sent by the Palestinians (really).  It was sent by a former Ottoman General and Jordanian civil servent, from an organization set-up by the Arab League (not Palestinian).  The Palestinian couldn't even do this on there own.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## irosie91 (Jan 15, 2013)

Mr  R 
    I agree with lots in your post-----but would add some associated issues---which 
actually impact on the entire Middle east----and even the entire  "islamic world" 
I will engender some resentment for my comments----HOWEVER---I truly believe 
-----that  ALL PEOPLE are hindered by their own myths----but muslims  "more so" 
Jews had ----for all their existence a single   "ADVENT" which is actually very limited.
---"ZION"      after that----it is a  matter of  "come what may"    Interestingly enough--
the time following the single  ZION advent----is actually described in hebrew in words 
which I believe translate something like ----"the days after...."      Whenever 
I read or hear them ---I am reminded of   BOLSHEVIKS    saying  "COMES THE 
REVOLUTION....."     This expression shows up in the bible in messianic 
prophecy    and---in literature thereafter------the MYTHIC FUTURE TIME 
AFTER THE  "RETURN TO"  or  "ESTABLISHMENT"  of zion is achieved.  

Muslims not only have a MUCH MORE SWEEPING  advent-----but it is to 
be achieved  by  CONQUEST OF THE ENEMY----which is all people who 
are not  monotheists-------The accepted monotheists to be only those who 
accept ISLAM as the SUPREME MONOTHEIST RELIGION.    To put it 
mildly-----muslims have a far too   VAST EXPECTATION to begin with---
and then----are far TOO OPTIMISTIC  about it.   That optimism did 
galvanize a remarkably SUCCESSFUL    era of Conquest.   That era 
of conquest left muslims with the  CALIPHATE  COMPLEX  ----it once 
existed----it was wonderful ----and then ---somehow----it got STOLEN.

The MOGHUL EMPIRE got stolen      BAGHDAD as the center 
of the world and the ARABIAN NIGHTS  got  stolen     MOORISH 
Spain got stolen -----even  Morocco got stolen----but the concept 
carries on that     IT STILL EXISTS-- WE JUST HAVE TO GET IT 
BACK----ALL OF IT.     If you understand the caliphate complex---you 
understand not only why egyptian kids are talking about  "getting 
spain back"      you also understand why a schmuck like  achmadinejad
has the audacity to say  IN THE UN!!!    ISLAM IS THE RELIGION FOR 
THE WHOLE WORLD       and why peace just never happens in the 
erstwhile   MOGHUL EMPIRE  (pakistan/india)    and why Israel cannot 
exist       The problem in the Middle east is not  LACK OF PALESTINIAN 
state for the people who are now palestinians and their losses
-----the problem is  the existence of  Israel       

In order to understand the  CREEPING ANNEXATION FEAR-----you have 
to understand the ISSUE OF PROJECTION     Muslims are convinced 
that  the JOOOOOS    harbor  a CALIPHATE COMPLEX TOO ---just 
as ROBUST AND CONCRETE AS THEIR OWN.   Thus muslims---not just 
"palestinians"  cannot tolerate the existence of  Israel-----and consider it 
a  GROWING CANCER IN THE HEART OF THE ISLAMIC WORLD


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 15, 2013)

RoccoR said:
			
		

> *(COMMENT)*
> 
> Yes, the defined borders were in the annex to the application. I've already showed this a dozen times.



Indeed, but it is illegal to declare borders inside someone else's borders. That is why Israel has none.


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## RoccoR (Jan 15, 2013)

P F Tinmore

Ah, yes.  You don't recognize the mandate.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

This will be one of those things we will not agree upon. 

Most Respectfully,
R


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 15, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore
> 
> Ah, yes.  You don't recognize the mandate.
> 
> ...



What about the mandate?


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 15, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > *(COMMENT)*
> ...



The only "state" ever offered to the Palestinians required them to surrender, disarm, give over half of their country to foreigners, and hold their hand out for whatever crumbs they would be offered.

Name any country in the world who would accept such an offer.


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## irosie91 (Jan 15, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



Good point ----they would have had to work to eat instead of getting it all free ----
of course they did not want it.     Things would have deteriorated to the pre 
ziionist days------malaria,  tubeculosis,  polio,  cholera,  shistosomiasis,  impetigo, 
        filth   and even leprosy----and no doctors ---- in general----starving discarded 
        kids and cripples in the gutters -----just like it was in the early  1800s   
        Anyone interested ---there are discusssions of the filth of jerusalem and its 
        sicknesses  before jews were able to start buying land in palestine.   
        A real disgusting sewer of sickness----kids going from polio to cholers


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## RoccoR (Jan 15, 2013)

irosie91, P F Tinmore, _et al,_

Yes, I understand.



irosie91 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

The assumption here is that the Palestinians were actually giving up sovereignty.  They were not.  _(This is a point that P F Tinmore and I completely disagree on.)_  But they must adhere to this ridiculous idea that that they are fighting for something - even though it was not theirs to begin with. To believe otherwise would take the legitimacy of their freedom fighting claim away.  But there was never a State of Palestine that was in any way not under the control of another power.  The Allied Powers through the UN (LON) set the Administration and Control of the the Mandate on the fall of the Ottoman Empire.  The Palestinians had not built a nation.  Remember, it was always under the control of another sovereignty until 14 May, 1948.  And they cannot deny the legitimacy of The Allied Powers through the UN (LON), because that was the mechanism used to establish every country from the Persian Gulf to the Mediterranean Sea.  Every border made of straight lines was artificial and designed by The Allied Powers through the UN (LON).

Most Respectfully,
R


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 15, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> irosie91, P F Tinmore, _et al,_
> 
> Yes, I understand.
> 
> ...



Palestine is the Palestinian's country no matter how much the propagandists say that it is not. They hold the legal and moral high ground and they have never surrendered their rights to anyone.


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## irosie91 (Jan 16, 2013)

Right  TINNIE----in fact the  MOGHULS  never gave up their  sovereignty and right over 
the  INDIAN SUBCONTINENT  either      NEVER!!!!!       India--pakistan,  Kashmir---maybe 
even  AFGHANISTAN  is   THE MOGHUL EMPIRE-----
                   LONG LIVE SHAH JAHAN  AND SLUT MUMTAZ  in the memory 
                            of the  deluded

  always remember ----muhummad invented   DHAL AND CHAPPATIS    and 
          The art and architecture of the  BYZANT-----and glass and lemons

          Years ago----I listened with fascination to the founder of the organization 
          that later morphed into    CAIR-----actually screaming   (in the 60s )  
                             PITAAAA IS  ARRRABBBBBB       the jerk was annoyed that 
                                                                  some jews had set up falafel shops 
                                                                  in  the USA 

                                      remember   arabism,  baathism, pita, caliphate     --the shit 
                                                                                     never went away and has 
                                                                                     always enjoyed the love 
                                                                                     of imperiaist Russia

                                An interesting factoid----Pig nasser actually used  NITROGEN 
                                          MUSTARD GAS  ---in yemen in the 1960s  IN 
                                          SUPPORT OF BAATHISTS OVER THERE---with the 
                                          BLESSINGS OF THE USSR


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## ima (Jan 16, 2013)

Israel is like the dinosaurs, pre-extinction.


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## Billo_Really (Jan 16, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> The assumption here is that the Palestinians were actually giving up sovereignty.  They were not.  _(This is a point that P F Tinmore and I completely disagree on.)_  But they must adhere to this ridiculous idea that that they are fighting for something - even though it was not theirs to begin with. To believe otherwise would take the legitimacy of their freedom fighting claim away.  But there was never a State of Palestine that was in any way not under the control of another power.  The Allied Powers through the UN (LON) set the Administration and Control of the the Mandate on the fall of the Ottoman Empire.  The Palestinians had not built a nation.  Remember, it was always under the control of another sovereignty until 14 May, 1948.  And they cannot deny the legitimacy of The Allied Powers through the UN (LON), because that was the mechanism used to establish every country from the Persian Gulf to the Mediterranean Sea.  Every border made of straight lines was artificial and designed by The Allied Powers through the UN (LON).
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R


You cannot migrate into an area (as the zionists did) and automatically have more land rights than the people already living there.  Arabs had been living there for a 1000 years and 750,000 of them were driven from their homes due to jewish terrorist groups like Irgun.

Do you think its right to move into a neighborhood, go up to one of the homes, walk in the door and tell the people in there to get out, this is your house now?


----------



## ima (Jan 16, 2013)

loinboy said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > The assumption here is that the Palestinians were actually giving up sovereignty.  They were not.  _(This is a point that P F Tinmore and I completely disagree on.)_  But they must adhere to this ridiculous idea that that they are fighting for something - even though it was not theirs to begin with. To believe otherwise would take the legitimacy of their freedom fighting claim away.  But there was never a State of Palestine that was in any way not under the control of another power.  The Allied Powers through the UN (LON) set the Administration and Control of the the Mandate on the fall of the Ottoman Empire.  The Palestinians had not built a nation.  Remember, it was always under the control of another sovereignty until 14 May, 1948.  And they cannot deny the legitimacy of The Allied Powers through the UN (LON), because that was the mechanism used to establish every country from the Persian Gulf to the Mediterranean Sea.  Every border made of straight lines was artificial and designed by The Allied Powers through the UN (LON).
> ...


Hitler did it, and the jews are just following in their saviour's footsteps.


----------



## RoccoR (Jan 16, 2013)

ima, irosie91, loinboy, P F Tinmore, _et al,_

I cannot defend all things Israel.  I'm not that competent, nor am I that knowledgeable about certain accusations and events.  

What little I do know, leads me to believe that much of the self righteous attitude and cosmetic victimization shields the truth and is an obstruction to the realization of peace.



P F Tinmore said:


> Palestine is the Palestinian's country no matter how much the propagandists say that it is not. They hold the legal and moral high ground and they have never surrendered their rights to anyone.


*(COMMENT)*

Let's address this first.  No one said that the Palestinian "surrendered their rights to anyone."   What was said was that the Palestinian never made the effort to establish a Palestinian "State" and then, when they made a superficial (shoddy work) attempt, it was well too late.  What was said, is they that the same time to accomplish something as the Israelis, they had placement and economic advantages over the Israelis, they had external support from every regional country - over the Israelis.  Yet, the Israelis were able to accomplish so much more.  The Palestinian, for all their cry and posing as victims were not able to establish a nation, or make nearly the same measure of contributions to their ethnic culture or the world, to anywhere near the levels demonstrated by deeds in Israel.

This is merely a rationalization necessary to continue the armed aggression initiated by the Palestinians and Arab Nations in 1948.  It has no basis in fact.  This follows some ridiculous logic that Palestine was a sovereignty unto itself during the Mandate; and that the Arab Palestinian had some extraordinary claim to establish a sovereignty.

You cannot speak to the moral high ground.  The Palestinian, whether firing anti-tank rockets at a school bus full of children, stabbing to death a family while they sleep, ambushing civilian cars on the road, suicide bombings in crowded shopping centers and restaurants, indiscriminate rocket fire, or just entering a High School in Kfar Etzion and randomly stabbing students, --- these are not the tools or the methods of a people that hold the high moral ground.

All terrorist _(insurgents, freedom fighters, resistances movements, etc)_ share this common language they use to justify their actions.  Even Osama bin Laden _(another famous Arab Freedom Fighter)_, in his "Open Letter to America" placed the Palestinian Cause as the number one issue for why he attacked America.  That is one hell of a high moral endorsement and solidarity in common cause.  



loinboy said:


> You cannot migrate into an area (as the zionists did) and automatically have more land rights than the people already living there.  Arabs had been living there for a 1000 years and 750,000 of them were driven from their homes due to jewish terrorist groups like Irgun.


*(COMMENT)*

This is a switch in the discussion from a sovereignty issue to a civil and/property ownership issue. 

The Israeli did not "automatically have more land rights than the people already living there."  And I would never justify the unlawful appropriation of the private ownership of land.  

The Irgun is a tricky thing.  I think of them as a terrorist group, so I know what you mean.  Somewhere around here, I have a British Wanted Poster for Menachem Begin, the last Commander of the Irgun.  Oddly enough, they to, thought of themselves as freedom fighters against British occupation during the Mandate.  The rhetoric they used then, sounds eerily familiar to that being used by today's Palestinian Terrorist.  



loinboy said:


> Do you think its right to move into a neighborhood, go up to one of the homes, walk in the door and tell the people in there to get out, this is your house now?


*(COMMENT)*

I do not.  Yet, somehow, I don't think the story is complete --- that, that is all there is to it.  Nor have I a complete understanding of the circumstances.  

But, no - I don't support or approve the confiscation of privately own property without extraordinary justification.  But, again - is this justification for the continuation of a struggle for more than a half century?



ima said:


> Hitler did it, and the jews are just following in their saviour's footsteps.


*(COMMENT)*

This does not lend your argument any credibility whatsoever.  Such inflammatory and outrageous remarks only tend to deflect the questions at hand.   Anyone who knows anything about the relationship between the Jewish People _(those that survived)_ and the NAZI, knows that this statement is a red herring, intended to invoke an emotional response.   

Anyone can make such claims about anyone.  The use of NAZI association is common to both sides, to the point that it is now a signal that nothing important is being said:  [Example False Propaganda Or!)]  Stakelbeck on Terror: Arab-Nazi Alliance in the Holocaust http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/20...rror-The-Arab-Nazi-Alliance-in-the-Holocaust/


> The book outlines the history of Islamic anti-Semitism in the Middle East, including the 1941 organized massacre of Iraqi Jews in Baghdad known as _The Farhud_, or "violent dispossession."  Watch as Black breaks down the larger Arab Muslim role in the Nazi Holocaust, which included an active alliance between the leader of the Palestinians and Adolf Hitler, and how this history still affects the Middle East today.



Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## ima (Jan 16, 2013)

C'mon Roc, you know just as well as I do that without WWII, the West doesn't need to back the zionist play in Palestine because the Jews don't get persecuted and don't have to go anywhere (and at the end of WWII, the Allied countries didn't want to let Jews into their countries either). Ipso facto, without Hitler, Israel maybe/possibly/probably never comes into being, making Hitler the saviour of Israel, who led the Jews to the Promised Land. It might sound strange, but it is what it is.


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## irosie91 (Jan 16, 2013)

Crotchboy
R[/quote]You cannot migrate into an area (as the zionists did) and automatically have more land rights than the people already living there.  Arabs had been living there for a 1000 years and 750,000 of them were driven from their homes due to jewish terrorist groups like Irgun.

from rosie
The migration that resulted in the current state of Israel  began in  the early 1800s  --
when  the OTTOMAN TURKS   moderated the racist filth of shariah law which had 
been IMPOSED by invading arabs   about 1000 years earlier  effectively including 
the CONFISCATION of all  property OWNED BY JEWS .   However the population 
of palestine  was never entirely bereft of jews-------AND  the migration of jews 
to   palestine in the early  1800s was not the FIRST EFFORT   of jews to restablish
themselves in the land that had been invaded and stolen by arab invaders    The 
project involved NO VIOLENCE OR FORCE at all-----the OTTOMANS were eager to 
SELL  land since ---they had no profit at all from the land on which many arabs 
simply squatted and exploited



Crotchboy>>>
Do you think its right to move into a neighborhood, go up to one of the homes, walk in the door and tell the people in there to get out, this is your house now?[/QUOTE]

rosie>>
I did not grow up in the city in which I live now-----When I came here---I bought a 
little house   that had been unoccupied for a few years.     (what a mess---but it was 
a price I could handle at the time)     When I opened the door---I discovered squatters---
I gave them three weeks to leave-----they had been squatting so long that they 
had created an illegal  bathroom and toilet ---and had a THRIVING veggie garden 
in the backyard----decorated with old  "bowling balls"    stuck on makeshift 
tripods    (werid but true)  and had CLEVERLY siphoned electricity from a street line.
They had lived in the city for a long time----and I was a newcomer----but I had 
BOUGHT THE HOUSE    just as the jews of   the  1800s  bought land    In most cases, 
early on-----they simply HIRED the squatters ----the myth that they knocked on doors 
threw people out of their homes is propaganda.    In most cases the squatters had
mud floor shacks      PS   the squatters in the house I bought---left politely.     IN order 
to understand the RESENTMENT of the arabs who  were displaced when jews 
bought land from the OTTOMANS   one has to understand   ISLAMIC LAW----islamic 
law  includes provisions that render  it   MANDATORY that muslims have free access 
to the homes of jews    and land ownership by jews is ----very tentative---
it can be terminated at the will of the  muslim  CHIEFTAIN   ---ie ---the 'ownership 
does not actually exist      I am sure  crotch boy is INDIGNANT   that my husband's 
family home was confiscated in the shariah shit hole in which he was born.

For those who do not know----"arabs"   still hold a grudge against  TURKS --
for selling land to jews and continue to describe the event as  
"JEWS STEALING ARAB LAND"     (the ottomans who sold land,  sold 
land that they actually did OWN----not just any and all land in palestine)

The good ERDOGAN is making up for the  OTTOMAN  deficiencies 
in ISLAMIC ADHERENCE-----by becoming an AVOWED ISLAMICIST.
He will fix the problem by progressive imposing the racist filth 
of  SHARIAH


----------



## RoccoR (Jan 16, 2013)

ima,  _et al,_

Yes, a conditional theoretical statement on possibilities involving an alternative history.  While this sounds very logical, I assure you that it is totally an invalid way of thinking.

You make two assertions here:


Without Hitler, no Israel. ...  OR ...  Not "H" THEN Not "I"
With Hitler then Israel.    ...  OR ...  IF "H" THEN "I"

In Logic and Critical Thinking, we call this "Denying the Antecedent."  It is a logical fallacy.  But it sure sounds good, and makes sense to a lot of people.  Yet, it is totally wrong.



ima said:


> C'mon Roc, you know just as well as I do that without WWII, the West doesn't need to back the zionist play in Palestine because the Jews don't get persecuted and don't have to go anywhere (and at the end of WWII, the Allied countries didn't want to let Jews into their countries either). Ipso facto, without Hitler, Israel maybe/possibly/probably never comes into being, making Hitler the saviour of Israel, who led the Jews to the Promised Land. It might sound strange, but it is what it is.


*(SIMPLIFICATION)*

*Definition:*
Any argument of the following form is invalid:

If A then B
Not A Therefore, Not B
*Examples:*


*IF* you get hit by a car when you are six *THEN* you will die young. But IF you were *not* hit by a car when you were six. *THEN* you will *not* die young. _(Logically invalid:  Of course, you could be hit by a train, by poisoned, or suffer a catastrophic illness at age seven, in which case you still die young.)_

*IF* I am in Tel Aviv *THEN* I am in Israel.   *IF* I am *not* in Tel Aviv, thus, *THEN* I am *not* in Israel. _(Of course, I could be in Haifa, in which case I could still be in Israel.)_
Let's try a series that is just a little more complicated.

*IF* there was a Hitler *THEN* there is the persecution of Jews.  But *IF *there was *not* a Hitler, *THEN* there would be *no* persecution of Jews. 
*-->*_(There were several period in history were the Jews were persecuted, there being a personality like Hitler is not a condition for persecution.)_ 
*IF* there was *no* persecution of Jews by Hitler, *THEN* there would *no* sympathy for the Jews.
-->_(King Feisal Hussein, of Iraq and Syria agreed to Jewish National Home according to British Mandate (Israel and Jordan) in 1918.  He met Dr. Weizmann in Jordan (1918) and Paris (1919) where they reached an agreement on mutual aid, conditional on the implementation of British promises to the Arabs.  This is pre-Hitler.)_
*IF* there is *no* sympathy for the Jews *THEN* there is *no* support for a Homeland.
*-->*_(The Balfour Declaration was made November 1917, Hitler was in the WW-I German Army as a Corporal.  His rise to power would not be noticed for another decade.  But clearly there was seen a need in 1917 for a Jewish Homeland.  Hitler and NAZI Persecution were not prerequisite for the vision or the perceived need.)_
*IF* there is *no* support for a Homeland, *THEN* Israel is *not* born.
*-->*_(This may actually be the only true derived statement.)_

My point here, of course, that while the claim sounds realist and descriptive of the truth, in the final analysis, it is circumstantial.  It may be the case that, in an alternative history, Israel is not created.  But, the Mandate was an outcome of the First World War, not dependent on a Second World War.  And, most importantly, the Palestinians were showing no real social, economic, or industrial development of any consequence.  Eventually some entity was going to shape it into a productive landscape; if not the Jewish People, then Syria, Jordan or Iraq.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## irosie91 (Jan 16, 2013)

The arguement presented by  IMA   can be discussed ALSO  from the POV  of  the influence that  ADOLF ABU ALI   had on  the   arabs of the post world war I   era----and the fall of the
OTTOMAN EMPIRE.      Ie ---another issue is    WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IF THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE HAD NOT BEEN DISBANDED      and world war I had not happened?

Adolf abu ali was an outcome of  WORLD WAR I      as was  ARAB NATIONALISM ---
and SPECIFICALLY THE BAATHIST MOVEMENT     which is the filth of the present 
day ASSAD  and was the filth of  Saddaam and was the filth of nasser and was 
the filth of  AL HUSSEINI.    Even before  world war I   -----Israel was well on its way. 
Tel aviv was a  ZIONIST CITY     RISHON LE TZION     and the migration of jews 
to palestine was not being impeded by the OTTOMANS   ----that program was 
created by   ARABIST FILTH NATIONALISM   and  british cooperation thereof.

Without  world war I-----Israel would have been Israel by 1930  <<pure conjecture ---
but more logical than the conjecture of ima


----------



## ima (Jan 16, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> ima,  _et al,_
> 
> Yes, a conditional theoretical statement on possibilities involving an alternative history.  While this sounds very logical, I assure you that it is totally an invalid way of thinking.
> 
> ...



GeeZ, all that fart smoke, someone OPEN A WINDOW!!! 

And in your last paragraph, you agreed with me that without WWII, Israel is maybe not created. Making Hitler what again? C'mon, I know you know this one.


----------



## irosie91 (Jan 16, 2013)

Israel was inevitable     by  the later part of the  19th century       Hitler did not galvanize its 
establishment----Adolf abu ali   thwarted it by galvanizing the filth of  arab nationalism  which 
was and is the main opposition to the establishment of  Israel.    In fact  BAATHISM came out of  the ass of  Adolf abu ali  right into the mouth of  al husseini---thence sucked up by  Gamal Abdul nasser,   Sadaam and   papa and baby assad


----------



## RoccoR (Jan 16, 2013)

ima,  _et al,_

All that smoke, probably means there is fire behind it.



ima said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > My point here, of course, that while the claim sounds realist and descriptive of the truth, in the final analysis, it is circumstantial.  It may be the case that, *in an alternative history, Israel is not created*.  But, the Mandate was an outcome of the First World War, not dependent on a Second World War.  And, most importantly, the Palestinians were showing no real social, economic, or industrial development of any consequence.  Eventually some entity was going to shape it into a productive landscape; if not the Jewish People, then Syria, Jordan or Iraq.
> ...


*(COMMENT )*

Manybe you need to read it again!  

The logic does not require either Hitler, or WWII, to be a foundational prerequisite for the creation and existence of the Jewish State.  In an "alternative history" anything is possible.  In anything is possible, and some more probably that others.  Maybe, in an alternative history, the original Kingdom of Israel is never conquered, thus never requiring reconstitution.   

But here, we are more concerned with reality and the linkage between Hitler/NAZI and Israel.  While WWII increased the likelihood of an Israel, it was a prerequisite for the reconstitution. 

Now I realize that there are many arguments that, in their narrative form, sound so logical that they take-on a life of their own.  With them comes almost a mental gravity that sucks people into the center of it.  This is one of those arguments, except it is not a pivotable point or essential conception.  There is an argument that is both a pivotable point AND essential conception --- that is "P F Tinmores" argument that the Palestinian lost autonomy and sovereignty, that somehow, Palestine was the domain under the control of the Palestinian.  That is an "alternative history" that has been taken on in belief on such a scale that it borders on a "mass delusion."

In every anti-Somebody propaganda effort, there are elements of truth and a position taken that looks so undeniably logical that it becomes inconceivable to dispute.  Most religions and spiritual belief systems have this in common.   A very common example that many of the great religions have is that their fundamental source document is a "revealed word" predicated on their particular deity.  It is a belief held so strong (the VMAT-2 Gene) that if some kill for it, and some die for it (MAO-A Gene). [ame=http://youtu.be/_mbe3SSIj-4]The Warrior Gene, MAOA-3R - Dr. Phil April 4th, 2011 - YouTube[/ame]  It is a pivotable belief because if it becomes in question,  the entire belief is place in jeopardy.  

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 16, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> ima,  _et al,_
> 
> All that smoke, probably means there is fire behind it.
> 
> ...





> --- that is "P F Tinmores" argument that the Palestinian lost autonomy and sovereignty, that somehow, Palestine was the domain under the control of the Palestinian.



The problem with your assessment is that when Palestine, and other states, were carved out of the defunct empire the rights did not go to the people who actually lived there but to a bunch of criminals out of Europe.


----------



## Hossfly (Jan 16, 2013)

ima said:


> loinboy said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...


At the Nazi Bund meeting in Frau Ima's little town, when they all face the picture of their beloved Hitler, Frau Ima gives the best SIEG HEIL.  Next time they show the documentary about American Nazis on the History Channel, perhaps Frau Ima should watch it and see if he/she can spot some of his/her friends.


----------



## Hossfly (Jan 16, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > ima,  _et al,_
> ...


Yeah, Tinnie, all those "criminals" were able to provide jobs for the poor Arabs from the surrounding countries so those Arabs came in droves.  Tinnie would rather that the Jews didn't come so that these poor Arabs would have stayed in their own countries and continued to be impoverished.  Of course, Tinnie, even though he claims to be Christian, seems to have no problem with the Muslim leaving the Saudi Peninsula centuries ago and invading the surrounding Christian countries, forcing many of the Christians to convert to Islam and killing so many who refused.  And now the descendants of the Christians who were lucky enough to survive the Muslim onslaught can't even practice their religion in peace.  I doubt if Tinnie ever worries about them.


----------



## RoccoR (Jan 16, 2013)

P F Tinmore, _et al,_

Yes, I have a different take on reality.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > --- that is "P F Tinmores" argument that the Palestinian lost autonomy and sovereignty, that somehow, Palestine was the domain under the control of the Palestinian.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

I would not call the Allied Command Europe (ACE) or the League of Nations a "bunch of criminals out of Europe;" but, that is just me.

Allied Command Europe - a major strategic headquarters of NATO; safeguards an area extending from Norway to Turkey.​
Q:  Which one of these doesn't belong with the others?
a:  Israel --- Independence:  14 May 1948 (from League of Nations mandate under British administration)
b:  Iraq ---  Independence:  3 October 1932 (from League of Nations mandate under British administration)
c:  Jordan ---  Independence:  25 May 1946 (from League of Nations mandate under British administration)
d:  Kuwait ---  Independence:  19 June 1961 (from the UK)
e:  Lebanon ---  Independence:  22 November 1943 (from League of Nations mandate under French administration)
f:  Palestine ---  _*Not Independent*_
g:  Saudi Arabia  ---  Independence:  23 September 1932 (Unification of the Kingdom)
h:  Syria --- Independence:  17 April 1946 (from League of Nations mandate under French administration)​ANSWER*:* *"F"* The Palestine Order in Council: - LINK - Mandate for Palestine - The Palestine Order in LoN Council - Mandatory order (10 August 1922)​
Every country, all the way around Palestine, managed to create a nation for themselves, except for the Palestinian _(one can only ask what was wrong with the Palestinians)_; with the clarification:  Saudi Arabia, which unified itself by internal means, and Kuwait _(formerly the Arab Court of Sheiks)_ which was sponsored by the UK _(an Allied Power)_ for independence and recognition by the UN and ACE.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Billo_Really (Jan 16, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> I cannot defend all things Israel.  I'm not that competent, nor am I that knowledgeable about certain accusations and events.
> 
> What little I do know, leads me to believe that much of the self righteous attitude and cosmetic victimization shields the truth and is an obstruction to the realization of peace.


You seem to be a decent person, which is, on topics like this one, very appreciated and quite refreshing.




RoccoR said:


> Let's address this first.  No one said that the Palestinian "surrendered their rights to anyone."   What was said was that the Palestinian never made the effort to establish a Palestinian "State" and then, when they made a superficial (shoddy work) attempt, it was well too late.  What was said, is they that the same time to accomplish something as the Israelis, they had placement and economic advantages over the Israelis, they had external support from every regional country - over the Israelis.  Yet, the Israelis were able to accomplish so much more.  The Palestinian, for all their cry and posing as victims were not able to establish a nation, or make nearly the same measure of contributions to their ethnic culture or the world, to anywhere near the levels demonstrated by deeds in Israel.


_ "...cry and posing as victims..."_

They were asked to give up 70% of their land, to 10% of the population!

And when they refused, they were attacked by jewish terrorist groups to the point where 750,000 residents had to flee the homes their families were living in for generations.

Do you realize the gravity of that situation?



RoccoR said:


> This is merely a rationalization necessary to continue the armed aggression initiated by the Palestinians and Arab Nations in 1948.  It has no basis in fact.  This follows some ridiculous logic that Palestine was a sovereignty unto itself during the Mandate; and that the Arab Palestinian had some extraordinary claim to establish a sovereignty.


Jews and arabs lived in Palestine together for generations with no major incidents of violence between the two groups, but that all changed when the zionists showed up.  The hostility started with the zionist migration into Palestine.




RoccoR said:


> You cannot speak to the moral high ground.  The Palestinian, whether firing anti-tank rockets at a school bus full of children, stabbing to death a family while they sleep, ambushing civilian cars on the road, suicide bombings in crowded shopping centers and restaurants, indiscriminate rocket fire, or just entering a High School in Kfar Etzion and randomly stabbing students, --- these are not the tools or the methods of a people that hold the high moral ground.


Would you like me to list Israeli crimes that are just as bad (if not worse) than those?  If you're going to act, like that side of the equation doesn't exist (or doesn't matter), then I'm gonna list'em!  But if you tell me you are aware of them, I'm gonna ask that you list 3 of them, to prove you are trying to look at both sides fairly.



RoccoR said:


> All terrorist _(insurgents, freedom fighters, resistances movements, etc)_ share this common language they use to justify their actions.  Even Osama bin Laden _(another famous Arab Freedom Fighter)_, in his "Open Letter to America" placed the Palestinian Cause as the number one issue for why he attacked America.  That is one hell of a high moral endorsement and solidarity in common cause.


That's more of a statement showing how badly the Israeli's are treating Palestinian's.  



RoccoR said:


> This is a switch in the discussion from a sovereignty issue to a civil and/property ownership issue.
> 
> The Israeli did not "automatically have more land rights than the people already living there."  And I would never justify the unlawful appropriation of the private ownership of land.


How can you think that and say, _"...the [Pals] are posing as victims..." _



RoccoR said:


> The Irgun is a tricky thing.  I think of them as a terrorist group, so I know what you mean.  Somewhere around here, I have a British Wanted Poster for Menachem Begin, the last Commander of the Irgun.  Oddly enough, they to, thought of themselves as freedom fighters against British occupation during the Mandate.  The rhetoric they used then, sounds eerily familiar to that being used by today's Palestinian Terrorist.


Terrorism is terrorism.  

However, Irgun today, is the Likud Party.



RoccoR said:


> I do not.  Yet, somehow, I don't think the story is complete --- that, that is all there is to it.  Nor have I a complete understanding of the circumstances.
> 
> But, no - I don't support or approve the confiscation of privately own property without extraordinary justification.  But, again - is this justification for the continuation of a struggle for more than a half century?


The "...continuation of [the] struggle...", is because of the ongoing 45 year belligerant occupation of Palestinian land, the economic siege of Gaza and the denial of the Palestinian's inherent right to self-determination by the Israeli's.

Let's make no mistake about this, Israel is the aggressor.

An occupational force cannot claim self-defense!


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 16, 2013)

RoccoR said:
			
		

> QUESTION: "How does that negate the rights of the Palestinians to Palestine?"
> 
> ANS: It doesn't and it never did. This is a false conclusion. It assumes that someone, some thing, some agency, prevented the Palestinian from working toward and attaining the same objective as the Israel (by comparison). The Palestinian did not opt to advance the same objective.
> 
> ...



You are the one basing your conclusion of false premise.

The Palestinians did try to create the state that they had the right to do but were thwarted at every turn by the British. Any move toward nationalism was trampled. Leaders were jailed, exiled, or sometimes killed.

It is not that they had no desire or did not have motivation. It is that they were under the mandate of a world superpower who had a different agenda.


----------



## Staidhup (Jan 16, 2013)

Israel is a sovereign state. How they respond to terrorism is their business, so what makes it your business? The Jewish refugees that returned to what was once their home land did so to escape persecution and further annihilation. Europe clearly did not want them as was the case with the United States. Palestine was nothing more than an occupied British holding composed of independent nomadic tribes. So the Jews moved in, purchased land, had it taken back by the British, purchased it again, and displaced the Palestinians. The 1917 Balfour Agreement recognized and approved the need to help assist the Zionist movement in establishing a home land, the league of Nations in 1922 agreed, granted Britain temporary administrative powers, the Palestinian and European Immigrant Jews purchased land, then in 1939, Britain overturned the Balfour agreement and reclaimed the land as part of the dwindling British Empire. After the war the flood of immigrants overwhelmed the country, Britain attempted to maintain control, however, after their stunt in 1939 the Jewish people exercised their power to form a legitimate state.So where were these Palestinians, what country did they rule, and where was their government located? There will only be peace in Palestine when the Palestinians agree to respect the right of Israel to exist as a country and Israel respects the rights of Palestinians. If Palestine continues acts of terrorism, and their fellow Muslim counter parts continue to demand the annihilation of Israel, she will do as she must to protect her sovereign rights.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jan 16, 2013)

Staidhup said:


> Israel is a sovereign state. How they respond to terrorism is their business, so what makes it your business? The Jewish refugees that returned to what was once their home land did so to escape persecution and further annihilation. Europe clearly did not want them as was the case with the United States. Palestine was nothing more than an occupied British holding composed of independent nomadic tribes. So the Jews moved in, purchased land, had it taken back by the British, purchased it again, and displaced the Palestinians. The 1917 Balfour Agreement recognized and approved the need to help assist the Zionist movement in establishing a home land, the league of Nations in 1922 agreed, granted Britain temporary administrative powers, the Palestinian and European Immigrant Jews purchased land, then in 1939, Britain overturned the Balfour agreement and reclaimed the land as part of the dwindling British Empire. After the war the flood of immigrants overwhelmed the country, Britain attempted to maintain control, however, after their stunt in 1939 the Jewish people exercised their power to form a legitimate state.So where were these Palestinians, what country did they rule, and where was their government located? There will only be peace in Palestine when the Palestinians agree to respect the right of Israel to exist as a country and Israel respects the rights of Palestinians. If Palestine continues acts of terrorism, and their fellow Muslim counter parts continue to demand the annihilation of Israel, she will do as she must to protect her sovereign rights.


An occupational force cannot claim self-defense.


----------



## RoccoR (Jan 16, 2013)

loinboy,  Staidhup,   _et al,_

I don't agree.



loinboy said:


> Staidhup said:
> 
> 
> > Israel is a sovereign state. ...   ...   ...
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

This is nonsense.  The Occupation Force has the right of "self-defense."  

The Arab/Palestinian insurgents, when they strike, are the aggressor.  They are conducting criminal activity outside the Occupation Law and regional civil criminal law.  They have no special status.  

I may disagree with the Occupation methodologies and the General Administration of the Occupied Territories, as performed by the Israelis, but that does not entitle the Palestinians to conduct insurgent operations.  If they want to pretend to be freedom fighters, or some sort of Resistance Movement, then they better adopt higher ground.  Conducting operations without a very clearly worded set of objectives, with an established means of settlement is not a productive process.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## RoccoR (Jan 16, 2013)

P F Tinmore, _et al,_

I have to chuckle at this.  The British, while they might have arrest a couple of Arabs, for criminal activity, spent a majority of their time occupied by the terrorist threats presented by the Jewish constituents.  

While most sited here, is the Irgun, the Stern Gang was considered the most violent and active through to Independence.  And Avraham Stern was killed by the Palestinian Police (Arab/Jew Contingent) in 1942.  He was a very suspect member of the resistance in terms of loyalties to the Jewish cause. 



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

The Palestinian Police (LINK Middle East Centre --- Palestine Police Force 1923/1932-1948) didn't show any more preference for the Jewish terrorist --- as they did for the Arab Palestinian.  The Arab Palestinians did not really have a independence movement and were not considered separatist.

And, it wasn't the British High Commissioner that disbanded the Palestinian Arab High Committee, it was the Arab League in mid-1945.  They were not negotiating the Partition Plan (LoN Res 181), the rejected the entire idea of a Partition and demanded all 100% of Palestine, and it wasn't even theirs. 

In 2011, Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas stated that the Arab rejection of the partition plan was a mistake he hoped to correct.


			
				Mahmoud Abbas said:
			
		

> The Palestinian president said Friday that* the Arab world had erred in rejecting the United Nations&#8217; 1947 plan to partition Palestine* into a Palestinian and a Jewish state. The Palestinian and Arab refusal set off widespread fighting, then Arab militaries attacked Israel after it declared independence the following year, a war the Arab states lost. &#8220;It was our mistake,&#8221; the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, above, said in a rare interview on Israeli television. &#8220;It was an Arab mistake as a whole.&#8221; Referring to Israel, he added, &#8220;But do they punish us for this mistake for 64 years?&#8221;
> SOURCE:  http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/29/w...tition-Plan-Was-Error-Mahmoud-Abbas-Says.html



Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Staidhup (Jan 16, 2013)

I believe the legitimacy and existence of Israel is beyond that of an occupation force. It was written and  prophesied, by Moses, in Deuteronomy 30:3 that the state of Israel and its people would one day return to their native land after being scattered through out the world, which was the very foundation and accepted belief of the Zionist movement leading to the Balfour Agreement and acceptance by the League of Nations in 1922. Palestine was an area occupied at the time by numerous fractional tribes, not a nation which is similar to that of the United States and indigenous habitants. I agree that the Palestinians need to address the need to establish a peaceful resolution other than promotion of terrorism and annihilation of Israel. The sad reality is that the Palestinians are and continue to be used as pawns in the hands of political opportunists that care less about Palestinians than that of their own agenda.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jan 17, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> This is nonsense.  The Occupation Force has the right of "self-defense."


They have the right to protect their citizens, but it's not under the heading of "self-defense".  By virtue of the fact that they are an "occupational force", means they are the aggressor.  They are occupying land that isn't their's, in violation of international law.




RoccoR said:


> The Arab/Palestinian insurgents, when they strike, are the aggressor.  They are conducting criminal activity outside the Occupation Law and regional civil criminal law.  They have no special status.


Every citizen of every country has the right to resist the belligerent occupation of their land by a foreign force.  As long as they target the Israeli military and not innocent civilians who take no part in hostilities, it's perfectly legal.




RoccoR said:


> I may disagree with the Occupation methodologies and the General Administration of the Occupied Territories, as performed by the Israelis, but that does not entitle the Palestinians to conduct insurgent operations.  If they want to pretend to be freedom fighters, or some sort of Resistance Movement, then they better adopt higher ground.  Conducting operations without a very clearly worded set of objectives, with an established means of settlement is not a productive process.


They are not insurgents if they target the IDF.

Funny how you say nothing about the Israeli's targeting innocent civilians?  

They do that a lot more than the Pals do.


----------



## Billo_Really (Jan 17, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> The Palestinian Police (LINK Middle East Centre --- Palestine Police Force 1923/1932-1948) didn't show any more preference for the Jewish terrorist --- as they did for the Arab Palestinian.  The Arab Palestinians did not really have a independence movement and were not considered separatist.
> 
> And, it wasn't the British High Commissioner that disbanded the Palestinian Arab High Committee, it was the Arab League in mid-1945.  They were not negotiating the Partition Plan (LoN Res 181), the rejected the entire idea of a Partition and demanded all 100% of Palestine, and it wasn't even theirs.


What do you mean it wasn't their's?  Arabs owned 85% of the land at that time.  181 was not a fair proposal.



> _...*land ownership statistics from 1945 showed that Arabs owned more land than Jews in every single district of Palestine*, including Jaffa, where Arabs owned 47 percent of the land while Jews owned 39 percent  and Jaffa boasted the highest percentage of Jewish-owned land of any district. In other districts, Arabs owned an even larger portion of the land. At the extreme other end, for instance, in Ramallah, Arabs owned 99 percent of the land. *In the whole of Palestine, Arabs owned 85 percent of the land, while Jews owned less than 7 percent, which remained the case up until the time of Israels creation.*
> 
> Yet, despite these facts, *the U.N. partition recommendation had called for more than half of the land of Palestine to be given to the Zionists for their Jewish State. **The truth is that no Arab could be reasonably expected to accept such an unjust proposal.* For political commentators today to describe the Arabs refusal to accept a recommendation that their land be taken away from them, premised upon the explicit rejection of their right to self-determination, as *a missed opportunity represents either an astounding ignorance of the roots of the conflict or an unwillingness to look honestly at its history*._


Rejection of 181, was not a "missed opportunity".


----------



## Billo_Really (Jan 17, 2013)

Staidhup said:


> I believe the legitimacy and existence of Israel is beyond that of an occupation force. It was written and  prophesied, by Moses, in Deuteronomy 30:3 that the state of Israel and its people would one day return to their native land after being scattered through out the world, which was the very foundation and accepted belief of the Zionist movement leading to the Balfour Agreement and acceptance by the League of Nations in 1922. Palestine was an area occupied at the time by numerous fractional tribes, not a nation which is similar to that of the United States and indigenous habitants. I agree that the Palestinians need to address the need to establish a peaceful resolution other than promotion of terrorism and annihilation of Israel. The sad reality is that the Palestinians are and continue to be used as pawns in the hands of political opportunists that care less about Palestinians than that of their own agenda.


What happened 2000 years ago, don't mean shit today in regards to international law.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 17, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore, _et al,_
> 
> Yes, I have a different take on reality.
> 
> ...





> I would not call the Allied Command Europe (ACE) or the League of Nations a "bunch of criminals out of Europe;" but, that is just me.



Basically I was referring to the British and the Zionists. If anyone else was involved in the crimes it was their choice.



> By virtue of the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples enshrined in the Charter of the United Nations, all peoples have the right freely to determine, *without external interference,* their political status and to pursue their economic, social and cultural development, and every State has the duty to respect this right in accordance with the provisions of the Charter.
> 
> A people can be said to have realised its right to self-determination when they have either (1) established a sovereign and independent state;...
> 
> ...



If any foreign body violated the Palestinians right to establish an independent state then their actions are illegal.

In my book that would make them criminals.


----------



## irosie91 (Jan 17, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore, _et al,_
> ...




Your book,  tinnie---is interesting----as is your sense of "rights"    In past months 
several like you have supported the RIGHT  of   countries with muslim majorities 
to enact shariah law which includes a set of laws virtually identical to the 
nuremberg laws which germany also had a  RIGHT  to impose.      
Your concept of  "right"   would support the "right"  of hindu India to 
commit a comprehensive genocide of all beef eating muslims in India--or 
any muslim who openly denies the divinity of Krishna---India has just as 
much right to enact its own laws as does Pakistan.    Your sense of  "right is  
 in full support of the recent genocide of christians in  sudan and the continued 
enslavement of thousands of christian children -----the rebellion of south sudan was 
entirely  ILLEGAL  according to shariah law and your book.    More than 70 
years ago----the escape of my mother-in-law from enslavement in a shariah shit 
hole was ENTIRELY ILLEGAL in the country from which she escaped---and her 
entry into palestine was entirely illegal according to your "book"      The death 
of my grandfather's brother in his attempt to enter palestine on release from 
the legal concentration camp in which he was placed---was ENTIRELY legal 
since his attempt to enter palestine was  ILLEGAL therefore killing him was LEGAL.   
It was absolutely    legal for egyptians to shoot sudanese escapees in the head as 
they fled to Israel because they actually fled sudan ILLEGALLY according 
to the SHARIAH LAW of  Khartoum and the sensitivities of the pious egytpian border 
guards who shot them.

    Your book is fascinating-----Turkey likes it-----you also legalized the ARMENIAN 
genocide----the armenians violated shariah law ----making the actions of the Turks 
ENTIRELY LEGAL ACCORDING TO THE INALIENABLE RIGHT OF THE TURKS TO 
THE LAWS THEY  HOLD SACRED.   BLASPHEMY is a capital crime----rebellion against 
SHARIAH is blasphemy.    Nothing new---you also legalized the Inquisition


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 17, 2013)

RoccoR said:
			
		

> The Arab Palestinians did not really have a independence movement and were not considered separatist.



All those strikes and uprisings were what then.

The Palestinians were in Palestine. They would want to be separate from what?


----------



## irosie91 (Jan 17, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The  episodes of violence comitted by muslims in the area which included that 
which became the Palestine mandate after world war I -----were manifestations 
of  arab nationalism      The persons  involved in the throat slitting episodes 
did not refer to themselves as  "palestinians" ----they called themselves  
"arabs"  and sometimes  "syrians'     There was an agenda among arabs of 
that time of HOME RULE for arabs ---before world war I---as opposed to 
OTTOMAN control and after World War I   as opposed to British control  
    Local muslim leaders  supported the imposition of the filth of shariah  
 in a strict manner as opposed to the liberal approach of the Ottomans which 
went so far was to allow jews to own land.   One of the features of current 
islamo nazi propaganda is the DELETION of the dispute between the 
arabs and the turks.   The arabs resented  TURKISH CONTROL ---especially
the atrocity of allowing jews---whether migrants or residents to BUY LAND--
but also the lack of   SHARIAH LAW CONTROL       
 Try to be honest    tinnie    it will not kill    you-----
There was certainly no  campaign to create an ARAB MUSLIM COUNTY
CALLED PALESTINE   at that time.    There was a campaign by muslim leaders 
like   al husseini to emulate your hero   Adolf abu ali and commit a genocide 
against jews in the middle east -----over which you still fantasize.


----------



## RoccoR (Jan 17, 2013)

P F Tinmore, _ et al,_

Hummm, I have to say, that you caught me here.  I could have discussed this a little better.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> 
> > The Arab Palestinians did not really have a independence movement and were not considered separatist.


*(COMMENT)*

I was thinking in terms of the accepted processes _(non-violent/diplomatic)_ that did not involve an uprising.  But, yes, you are correct.  The Arab-Palestinians did, as a first choice, adopt a violent solutions against the Mandate authority.  And it failed.  As I wrote in an earlier commentary, the Palestinian standard practice was to jumpt to violence as a first solution.  The pre-1940 effort was a characteristic they would repeat in 1948.

Striking the British, in their darkest hour while facing a possible invasion from Europe, did not endear them to the UK.



P F Tinmore said:


> All those strikes and uprisings were what then.
> 
> The Palestinians were in Palestine. They would want to be separate from what?


*(COMMENT)*

Yes, you are correct. _ (I stand corrected and apologize; in that I did not fully explain.) _ 

There was a period of internal hostility between 19351940, called the Arab Revolt.  These were the Arab Nationalist backed by the Palestinian Arab High Committee, puppets of the Arab League (external forces).

The nature of the separation was from the mandate.  The separatist _(those nationalists that wanted to separate and withdraw from British control, seceding from an established mandate)_ were persistent for about a five year period, during WWII, when the British were perceived to be the weakest, and deeply involved in the homeland defense against Germany and the North African effort.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 17, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore, _ et al,_
> 
> Hummm, I have to say, that you caught me here.  I could have discussed this a little better.
> 
> ...



There were those who believed in diplomacy also. But Britain just shoved the Palestinians aside and went to its own agenda. This is nothing new. Britain had been trampling on natives for centuries.

Britain violated the League of Nations Covenant, its own mandate, and international law.

The Palestinians are only seeking justice for these violations.


----------



## ima (Jan 17, 2013)

Staidhup said:


> Israel is a sovereign state. How they respond to terrorism is their business, so what makes it your business? *The Jewish refugees that returned to what was once their home land did so to escape persecution and further annihilation. Europe clearly did not want them as was the case with the United States.* Palestine was nothing more than an occupied British holding composed of independent nomadic tribes. So the Jews moved in, purchased land, had it taken back by the British, purchased it again, and displaced the Palestinians. The 1917 Balfour Agreement recognized and approved the need to help assist the Zionist movement in establishing a home land, the league of Nations in 1922 agreed, granted Britain temporary administrative powers, the Palestinian and European Immigrant Jews purchased land, then in 1939, Britain overturned the Balfour agreement and reclaimed the land as part of the dwindling British Empire. *After the war the flood of immigrants overwhelmed the country,* Britain attempted to maintain control, however, after their stunt in 1939 the Jewish people exercised their power to form a legitimate state.So where were these Palestinians, what country did they rule, and where was their government located? There will only be peace in Palestine when the Palestinians agree to respect the right of Israel to exist as a country and Israel respects the rights of Palestinians. If Palestine continues acts of terrorism, and their fellow Muslim counter parts continue to demand the annihilation of Israel, she will do as she must to protect her sovereign rights.



It's what I've been saying all along, no war, no flood of immigrants, and Jews would be still happy in Europe, making Hitler Israel's best friend ever because who knows what would have happened without WWII, maybe Israel isn't even created, or is created instead in South Florida?


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 17, 2013)

"Sir Ronald Storrs, the first Governor of Jerusalem, certainly had no illusions about what a 'Jewish homeland' in Palestine meant for the British Empire: 'It will form for England,' he said, '*a little loyal Jewish Ulster in a sea of potentially hostile Arabism.*'

"Storrs&#8217; analogy was no accident. Ireland was where the English invented the tactic of divide and conquer, and where the devastating effectiveness of using foreign settlers to drive a wedge between the colonial rulers and the colonized made it a template for worldwide imperial rule."

It was 1609 when the English imported 20,000 Protestants into Northern Ireland.
In 1969 the violence levels from that original colonization rivaled the levels found in Vietnam on some days. Some of this problem reduces very simply to a Class War that's been in progress for thousands of years. IMHO, US and Israeli elites, and the governments they control, are on the wrong side.

Divide and Conquer as Imperial Rules | FPIF


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## irosie91 (Jan 17, 2013)

silly comment      who was being  "DIVIDED AND CONQUORED"   in  palestine?
  Was there some common cause over there that was being destroyed?     
  The technique of "divide and conquor"   is as old as human society and warfare 
    (which started at the very dawn of history at the water hole)


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## Hossfly (Jan 17, 2013)

loinboy said:


> Staidhup said:
> 
> 
> > I believe the legitimacy and existence of Israel is beyond that of an occupation force. It was written and  prophesied, by Moses, in Deuteronomy 30:3 that the state of Israel and its people would one day return to their native land after being scattered through out the world, which was the very foundation and accepted belief of the Zionist movement leading to the Balfour Agreement and acceptance by the League of Nations in 1922. Palestine was an area occupied at the time by numerous fractional tribes, not a nation which is similar to that of the United States and indigenous habitants. I agree that the Palestinians need to address the need to establish a peaceful resolution other than promotion of terrorism and annihilation of Israel. The sad reality is that the Palestinians are and continue to be used as pawns in the hands of political opportunists that care less about Palestinians than that of their own agenda.
> ...


Sure it do, Dumkopf.


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## irosie91 (Jan 17, 2013)

A very important component of islamo nazi pig propaganda is the assertion 
   that   the issue of   Israel   DIED   2000 years ago with its sacking by Rome--
   and centuries of  christian control followed by the invasion of the land by 
   arabians     -      Another islamo nazi pig assertion is that "zionism"   was 
   "invented"    in   1897  by  Herzl.    Long ago when I was a kid---a copy of 
    the  Picthall version of the koran fell into my hands      I read it----Assuming 
    this book was written sometime within  150 years of the death of Muhummad  
       ---even the writers of the koran  KNEW  how jews attached 
    to  Israel  ----the writers of the koran attribute to muhummad the idea 
    that the jews  SHOULD RETURN  to  Israel ,,    yet they continue to insist 
    that Zionism was "invented'   recently and jews have no real connection.

   Even on very superficial examination of the facts-----the continued 
   presence of jews in palestine---the several  zionist projects over that 
   2000 years----pilgrimages  ---writings regarding the issue of  RETURN 
   etc etc etc -----the claim of  ----"its all ancient history"  becomes 
   obviously absurd.------yet they continue to  INSIST


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## RoccoR (Jan 17, 2013)

P F Tinmore, _ et al,_

There is a forum for claim and justice.  The courts.



P F Tinmore said:


> There were those who believed in diplomacy also. But Britain just shoved the Palestinians aside and went to its own agenda. This is nothing new. Britain had been trampling on natives for centuries.


*(COMMENT)*

I believe in the democratic process.  I also believe in the Rule of Law.  Practices like the insurgency and terrorism are a very last resort.  The Palestinians took it as a first option.  It has been more than a half century since Israel was created.  You cannot role back the clock.  But there is still a possibility for some equity, given that it is approached the right way.



P F Tinmore said:


> Britain violated the League of Nations (LoNs) Covenant, its own mandate, and international law.
> 
> The Palestinians are only seeking justice for these violations.


*(COMMENT)*

Britain did not violate the LoNs Covenant.  Israel made application to the LoNs, not Britain.  The International Community (I believe wrongly) approved the application.  While they tried to fullfil the total obligation by dividing the remaining territory left over after the creation of several other countries (Jordan getting a great swath of Palestine), through Resolution 181, the High Committee and the Arab League rejected the division.  They wanted more and the LoNs refused.  Israel accepted and was created, Palestine (the State) was not.

The Allied Command and the LoNs set the Mandate, and the Allied Command and the LoNs accepted the application from Israel, pursuant to the previous decisions and Resolution 181.  Britain did not break the Covenant, the LoNs executed it as they saw at the time, as best they could.  When Israel acted, the Mandate terminated.  Britain did not shove the Palestinians aside at all.  They could have done the exact same thing.

You mentioned "their Agenda."  The British didn't care for the Jewish apparatus and leaders very much.  They knew that as soon as the British contingent withdrew, the Arabs would attack.  The British Government sis not expect the Israelis to survive the assault.  Most everyone was surprised that the Israel withstood the assault.  Essentially, the British confiscated as many weapons as they could before they left.  The idea was to leave the Israel as defenseless as possible for the Arabs to overcome.  That didn't happen.

*(EPILOG)*

The LoNs did what it did.  Britain withdrew, and the Arab Armies attacked.  The Arab League and the Palestinians chose force of arms as the means of settling the dispute.  

After the 1948 ArabIsraeli War (November 1947 - July 1949), Reprisal operations (1950s - 1960s - counter-Fedayeen guerillas action), Six-Day War (June 1967) Yom Kippur War (October 1973), Lebanon War (1982), First Intifada (19871993), Lebanon War (2006),  - 
Gaza War (December 2008 - January 2009), and now Operation Pillar of Defense (November 2012 - Ongoing), the Arab/Palestinian, the Arab League and the Iranian decision to the "Use of Force" as the first option to the settlement methodology has not been successful; Israel has survived _(through 3 Major Wars, a half dozen minor wars, and a constant level of insurgency operations)_.  Palestine is still not a country.

HAMAS, as a leadership entity, has been a very dismal failure.  But PA President Mahmoud Abbas, despite internal obstacles, has managed to get the PA recognized as an entity and is moving towards statehood.  If this is done, his State of Palestine may be able to make a claim and secure war reparations and property settlements from Israel _(maybe)_.  

Most Respectfully,
R


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## MHunterB (Jan 17, 2013)

George, why do you hate the Kurdish people?  How are they less deserving of self-determination than the Palestinians?

Is it because you perceive them as 'rich' since some of their ancestral territory sits on an oil reserve?  Or is it simply that the Kurds have no particular attachment to Marxism the way the Palestinian (PLO/PA) groups have ?

Please - everything does not fit tidily into your Marxist paradigm of 'class warfare'!


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## irosie91 (Jan 17, 2013)

Mr.  R       Facts will not overcome the  firm islamic belief that   the USA  and the UK  
  JAMMED ISRAEL into the very heart of the  "ISLAMIC WORLD"        IT IS A PLOT 
  AGAINST ISLAM   by the  ENEMEEEEEES OF ISLAAAAAAM          if you grew up with 
  the words   ENEMEEEEES OF ISLAAAAAAM   ringing in your ears---a mere litany of 
  facts would not stop the  ----rrrringingggggggg


----------



## ima (Jan 17, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> There is a forum for claim and justice.  The courts.



The US government doesn't even recognize the International Court in The Hague. Please try again.


----------



## Staidhup (Jan 17, 2013)

irosie91 said:


> Mr.  R       Facts will not overcome the  firm islamic belief that   the USA  and the UK
> JAMMED ISRAEL into the very heart of the  "ISLAMIC WORLD"        IT IS A PLOT
> AGAINST ISLAM   by the  ENEMEEEEEES OF ISLAAAAAAM          if you grew up with
> the words   ENEMEEEEES OF ISLAAAAAAM   ringing in your ears---a mere litany of
> facts would not stop the  ----rrrringingggggggg



Facts are Facts, history without factual validation is nothing more than speculative interpretive tripe. The only plot against Islam is the self induced paranoia within Islam which may well be the result of their 9th century cultures inability to transcend into the 
20th century. Shiite vs Sunni issue........
If at the waining moments of the British Empire they had not chosen to adopt the Balfour agreement, furthermore not meddled in the affairs of the region known as Palestine, would it have had an influence as to if the survivors of European persecution immigrated back to their ancestral homeland? 
Would the world have sat back once again and permitted the extermination of those of the Jewish faith? It was prophesied long before the birth of Islam, by Moses, that the Jewish people after being, conquered, displaced, and scattered around the world, would once again assemble and return to their promised land.
To go a step further, if anti-Semitism and Hitler had never existed in Europe would the prophesy of Moses have come to fruition?


----------



## RoccoR (Jan 17, 2013)

ima,  _et al,_

Yes, interesting isn't it.



ima said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > There is a forum for claim and justice.  The courts.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

We're not talking about the US involvement.  In fact, the US shouldn't be involved at all.  

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (Jan 17, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore, _ et al,_
> 
> There is a forum for claim and justice.  The courts.
> 
> ...



I read your post several times and I can't figure out what you are trying to say. It is too much of a jumble.


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 17, 2013)

Staidhup said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > Mr.  R       Facts will not overcome the  firm islamic belief that   the USA  and the UK
> ...


Where's your "factual validation" that Moses isn't just another lie the Rich tell to keep the collection plate full?

"The existence of Moses as well as the veracity of the Exodus story is disputed amongst archaeologists and Egyptologists, with experts in the field of biblical criticism citing logical inconsistencies, new archaeological evidence, historical evidence, and related origin myths in Canaanite culture.[3][4][5] 

"Other historians maintain that the biographical details, and Egyptian background, attributed to Moses imply the existence of a historical political and religious leader who was involved in the consolidation of the Hebrew tribes in Canaan towards the end of the Bronze Age.

Moses - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Staidhup (Jan 17, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> Staidhup said:
> 
> 
> > irosie91 said:
> ...



Rich and collection plate? Ouch that was deep, I didn't know those evil repressive republican bible thumpers existed over 2,000 years ago. What new archaeological evidence refuting the existence of Moses and the biblical text of Deuteronomy do you reference that states the existence of Moses and exodus did not occur? Wikipedia? 
What I pointed out and maintain as of interest is that in Deuteronomy 30:3 Moses prophesied the reestablishment of the nation of Israel after they had turned away from God and were scattered through out the world and its similarity to the post WWII immigration of the Jewish people back to the promised land. 
My belief in God, Jesus Christ, the Old, and New Testament is simply my spiritual belief. It should not be of concern to you for I pose no physical threat, unless of course, you have your doubts. But enough about the belief one may or may not have this thread is about Palestine and the Muslim belief that Israel has no justification for existence, to which I state is incorrect from both a Biblical, Historical, Archaeological, and Physical sense.


----------



## irosie91 (Jan 17, 2013)

The existence of  MOSES is not necessary to the  evolution of events in the Middle east----the 
concept of zionism is what galvanized the  re-establishment of Israel      Zionism has been a force for more than 3000 years .     The existence or non existence of the rapist pig is 
not necessary to the establishment of the filth of shariah----it was elaborated from 
the filth of the Justinian code   with some old arabian customs tossed in for extra filth


----------



## Hossfly (Jan 17, 2013)

georgephillip said:


> Staidhup said:
> 
> 
> > irosie91 said:
> ...


Wikipedia again, Georgie Boy???  I guess you don't read the Letters to the Editor in your own local newspaper.  One teacher said that she doesn't even allow her students to use Wikipedia, and that there are so many sources on line from legitimate sources which tell the truth.  Wasn't it the Egyptians saying that the Jews and Moses stole things when they left Egypt and the Egyptians now want the stuff back?  There are so many things that have been dug up at archeological sites and are still being dug up which corroborate what is in the Bible.


----------



## Hossfly (Jan 17, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore, _ et al,_
> ...


Fish oil pills are good to slow down Alzheimers, tinnie.


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 17, 2013)

irosie91 said:


> The existence of  MOSES is not necessary to the  evolution of events in the Middle east----the
> concept of zionism is what galvanized the  re-establishment of Israel      Zionism has been a force for more than 3000 years .     The existence or non existence of the rapist pig is
> not necessary to the establishment of the filth of shariah----it was elaborated from
> the filth of the Justinian code   with some old arabian customs tossed in for extra filth


The concept of colonialism at the  time the Royal Navy was switching from coal to oil for fuel "is what galvanized the re-establishment of Israel..."

"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood *that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine*, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

Balfour Declaration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Funny how Jews in other countries and Arabs in Palestine were both sacrificed for the good of global oil, right?


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## georgephillip (Jan 17, 2013)

Staidhup said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > Staidhup said:
> ...


Wikipedia is the fourth or fifth most visited site on the web.

Given the level of informed debate that produces its content, I would give it much greater credibility than a collection of myths that have been rewritten anonymously countless times over the last 2000 years often to enhance the political control of "...evil repressive...bible thumpers..." 

This thread actually began as a discussion about what kind of existence Israel is entitled to. Is a state that contains approximately equal numbers of Jews and Arabs entitled to exist as a Jewish State? Or should every eligible Arab and Jew have a vote over the domestic and military policies of a democratic Israel?


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## Billo_Really (Jan 17, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> I read your post several times and I can't figure out what you are trying to say. It is too much of a jumble.


He's trying to say it's all the Palestinian's fault and none of the Israeli's fault.


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## Billo_Really (Jan 17, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> I believe in the democratic process.  I also believe in the Rule of Law.  Practices like the insurgency and terrorism are a very last resort.  The Palestinians took it as a first option.


It wasn't a first option!

The violence started with zionists migrating into the area.



RoccoR said:


> The LoNs did what it did.  Britain withdrew, and the Arab Armies attacked.  The Arab League and the Palestinians chose force of arms as the means of settling the dispute.


That's not true!  Arab nations had told the British if they were not going to protect the Palestinian's civil rights, then they would step in to do it.  That's why the arab nations went into Palestine, to ensure arab civil rights that were being disregarded by the zionists.



RoccoR said:


> After the 1948 ArabIsraeli War (November 1947 - July 1949), Reprisal operations (1950s - 1960s - counter-Fedayeen guerillas action), Six-Day War (June 1967) Yom Kippur War (October 1973), Lebanon War (1982), First Intifada (19871993), Lebanon War (2006),  -
> Gaza War (December 2008 - January 2009), and now Operation Pillar of Defense (November 2012 - Ongoing), the Arab/Palestinian, the Arab League and the Iranian decision to the "Use of Force" as the first option to the settlement methodology has not been successful; Israel has survived _(through 3 Major Wars, a half dozen minor wars, and a constant level of insurgency operations)_.


Israel started the last 6 wars its been in.



RoccoR said:


> HAMAS, as a leadership entity, has been a very dismal failure.  But PA President Mahmoud Abbas, despite internal obstacles, has managed to get the PA recognized as an entity and is moving towards statehood.  If this is done, his State of Palestine may be able to make a claim and secure war reparations and property settlements from Israel _(maybe)_.


Abbas, is an Israeli bitch!


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## MHunterB (Jan 17, 2013)

"It wasn't a first option!
The violence started with zionists migrating into the area."

Damascus, 1840.  'Nuff said.


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## irosie91 (Jan 17, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> "It wasn't a first option!
> The violence started with zionists migrating into the area."
> 
> Damascus, 1840.  'Nuff said.




what about   Damascus   1840?      muslims never attack jews without  
FULL JUSTIFICATION      what do you expect them to do when jews kill kids 
as an ingredient for cookies?


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## RoccoR (Jan 18, 2013)

irosie91, MHunterB, _et al,_

There are atleast two-sides to every story or major event.  In the case of the Damascus Affair of 1840, there is more than aspect to look at it.



irosie91 said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> > "It wasn't a first option!
> ...


*(PREFACE)*

Analogous to this event is the Salem Witch Trails.



			
				Salem Witch Trials said:
			
		

> The episode is one of the most notorious cases of mass hysteria, and has been used in political rhetoric and popular literature as a vivid cautionary tale about the dangers of isolationism, religious extremism, false accusations and lapses in due process).
> Salem witch trials - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



*(SIMILARLY)*



			
				Damascus Affair said:
			
		

> The Damascus affair was an 1840 incident in which the accusation of ritual murder was brought against members of the Jewish community of Damascus. Eight notable Jews of Damascus were falsely accused of murdering a Christian monk, imprisoned and tortured. Several of the imprisoned died of torture, and another was forced to convert to Islam. In addition, the Muslim populace of Damascus fell upon the Jewish synagogue in the suburb of Jobar, pillaged it, and destroyed the scrolls of the Law.
> The affair drew wide international attention in particular due to the efforts of the Austrian Consul in Aleppo Eliahu Picciotto, who made representations to Ibrahim Pasha, who then ordered an investigation. Sir Moses Haim Montefiore, backed by other influential westerners led a delegation to the ruler of Syria and Egypt, Mehemet Ali. The negotiations in Alexandria continued from August 4 to August 28 and secured the unconditional release and recognition of innocence of the nine prisoners still remaining alive (out of thirteen). Later in Constantinople, Montefiore persuaded Sultan Abdülmecid I to issue a firman (edict) intended to halt the spread of blood libel accusations in the Ottoman Empire. The prevailing contemporary interpretation of this event is that of being a part of a long history of false blood libel charges against Jews.[1]
> SOURCE:  Damascus affair - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



*(COMMENT)*

Today, we could use more modern genetic testing to determine the probability and potential for what drives such events.  Through forensic testing, we could (today) explore whether the controversial VMAT-2 Gene was involved or some other inducement.  The zest in which the Spanish Inquisition was carried-out was a form of mass hysteria in combination with vigilantism through group-thinking.



			
				What is Groupthink? said:
			
		

> Groupthink, a term coined by social psychologist Irving Janis (1972), occurs when a group makes faulty decisions because group pressures lead to a deterioration of mental efficiency, reality testing, and moral judgment (p. 9).  Groups affected by groupthink ignore alternatives and tend to take irrational actions that dehumanize other groups.  A group is especially vulnerable to groupthink when its members are similar in background, when the group is insulated from outside opinions, and when there are no clear rules for decision making.
> 
> References (also see annotated bibliography of books, articles and websites below)
> 
> ...


Needless to say, such events occur periodically, even today.  It is not tied to the Arab-Israeli dispute.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## RoccoR (Jan 18, 2013)

loinboy,  _et al,_

Fault is leaping over the diagnosis and attributing negligence.  I'm not doing that at all.



loinboy said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > I read your post several times and I can't figure out what you are trying to say. It is too much of a jumble.
> ...


*(SIMPLEST TERMS)*

The Palestinian-Arab/Israeli dispute is quite similar to children who fight over toys.  Two children want the same toys at the same time.  In the end, one will get it and the other will complain to mother.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## RoccoR (Jan 18, 2013)

loinboy, _et al, _

Perspective.



loinboy said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > I believe in the democratic process.  I also believe in the Rule of Law.  Practices like the insurgency and terrorism are a very last resort.  The Palestinians took it as a first option.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

This is immigration intolerance, a mild form of apartheid.  The immigration was not violence, it was the Arab reaction to it that sparked the violence and made it an issue.  



loinboy said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > The LoNs did what it did.  Britain withdrew, and the Arab Armies attacked.  The Arab League and the Palestinians chose force of arms as the means of settling the dispute.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

This doesn't even pass the "smell test."  Since when, today or yesteryear, does the Arab or Palestinian have a reputation for protecting the civil rights of its citizens?  Every Arab government is either in turmoil or dominated by a strong central government.  What do you think the Arab Spring is all about?



RoccoR said:


> After the 1948 ArabIsraeli War (November 1947 - July 1949), Reprisal operations (1950s - 1960s - counter-Fedayeen guerillas action), Six-Day War (June 1967) Yom Kippur War (October 1973), Lebanon War (1982), First Intifada (19871993), Lebanon War (2006),  -
> Gaza War (December 2008 - January 2009), and now Operation Pillar of Defense (November 2012 - Ongoing), the Arab/Palestinian, the Arab League and the Iranian decision to the "Use of Force" as the first option to the settlement methodology has not been successful; Israel has survived _(through 3 Major Wars, a half dozen minor wars, and a constant level of insurgency operations)_.





loinboy said:


> Israel started the last 6 wars its been in.


*(COMMENT)*

Again, the "smell test!"  I'm just sure that the Israeli head of state just wakes up one day and says, time to attack an Arab country.  Yeah, like that happens.  It has nothing to do with the Arab Nations massing troops along the common borders; I'm sure that the Israeli head of state said, It's Yom Kipper, let's invite the Arab Armies over for a celebration.  Or, was it a surprise attack tactically planned to start on the biggest Jewish holiday of the year.

I'm very sure that the Israelis just could wait for the Jabalia refugees to start something so the IDF had something more to do.  I'm sure that the Palestinians were attacked by a 1000 of their own, who were cooperating with the Israelis and asked to be executed.  Yeah, I can just imagine that.

Each event has a trigger.  And each side is just as responsible for the cycle of violence as the other.  The difference is, the Israeli doesn't play the part of the victim.



RoccoR said:


> HAMAS, as a leadership entity, has been a very dismal failure.  But PA President Mahmoud Abbas, despite internal obstacles, has managed to get the PA recognized as an entity and is moving towards statehood.  If this is done, his State of Palestine may be able to make a claim and secure war reparations and property settlements from Israel _(maybe)_.





loinboy said:


> Abbas, is an Israeli bitch!


*(COMMENT)*

Yes, this is an example of the Palestinian inability to speak with a common voice.  And in some quarter, any Palestinian that wants to advance the cause of their people and the peace, by operating inside the legal system, is "an Israeli bitch!"

The counterpart to using the Peaceful method, as Mahmoud Abbas is doing, is to choose the non-peaceful method, as Hamas is doing.

As I said, we've circled back around again, the Palestinian jump to violence as the first choice.  I've seen no evidence of a concerted effort otherwise. 

Most Respectfully,
R


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 18, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> loinboy, _et al, _
> 
> Perspective.
> 
> ...





> Yes, this is an example of the Palestinian inability to speak with a common voice.  And in some quarter, any Palestinian that wants to advance the cause of their people and the peace, by operating inside the legal system, is "an Israeli bitch!"



Most people miss the obvious.

Fact: Fatah lost the 2006 elections.

Fact: Abbas left the government in June of 2007.

Now, how is it that Fatah and Abbas ended up being the PA in the West Bank?


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## ima (Jan 18, 2013)

irosie91 said:


> The existence of  MOSES is not necessary to the  evolution of events in the Middle east----the
> concept of zionism is what galvanized the  re-establishment of Israel      Zionism has been a force for more than 3000 years .     The existence or non existence of the rapist pig is
> not necessary to the establishment of the filth of shariah----it was elaborated from
> the filth of the Justinian code   with some old arabian customs tossed in for extra filth



Moses was a rapist pig? Wasn't he the one god gave 2 tablets and said if your headache doesn't go away, smoke some of the burning bush?


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## RoccoR (Jan 18, 2013)

P F Tinmore,  _et al,_

I think the Wakseh between the FatahHamas, politically; not because of the dispute, but what the ultimate reaction is going to be by the Palestinians.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, this is an example of the Palestinian inability to speak with a common voice.  And in some quarter, any Palestinian that wants to advance the cause of their people and the peace, by operating inside the legal system, is "an Israeli bitch!"
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Oh, I don't think anyone has missed the obvious.  We are quite use to the Palestinian People speaking with a forked-tongue.

Let's see which the Palestinian People appreciate more; the  promise of war (the option of HAMAS), or the pursuit of peace (the option of FATAH).

Maybe as the President of the Palestinian Authority, Abbas, can accomplish more than he could as a member of a failed government.

Give it time, it looks good so far.

*(MEANWHILE)*

Sometime, when the Palestinian pursues the high road to peace, positive outcomes happen.



> Partitioning the two-state solution said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*(QUESTION)*

Are we moving closure to the old Two-State Solution?  Or, are there still significant differences?

Will there be a difference between the Peace that the West Bank (FATAH) reaps, or will Gaza (HAMAS) benefit equally?

Most Respectfully,
R


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 18, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> 
> I think the Wakseh between the FatahHamas, politically; not because of the dispute, but what the ultimate reaction is going to be by the Palestinians.
> 
> ...



Yep, you missed the obvious.

The two state solution has been on the table since 1937 and we are farther away from a deal than we were back then. It has always been a pipe dream. It is there to legitimize Israel.


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## irosie91 (Jan 18, 2013)

P F Tinmore said:


> [O
> 
> The two state solution has been on the table since 1937 and we are farther away from a deal than we were back then. It has always been a pipe dream. It is there to legitimize Israel.





   Tinmore finally makes a good point------the people who lately call themselves  
  "palestinians"    and the rest of the UMMAH    never lacked an opportunity to 
   create a  STATE   for   ----the  "arabs"    of the area-----their  BIG PROBLEM 
   was that they were asked to   tolerate a  "jewish state"  in order to do so  and 
   to give up absolute and complete control of the entire middle east for the 
   glory of   the     ISLAMIC CAUSE       Muhummad did not give in ---he ordered and 
   GOT   a comprehensive genocide of    christians, jews, zoroastrians and "others"  
   in arabia      should the  "ummah"   tolerate anything less in the rest of the 
   middle east?


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## RoccoR (Jan 18, 2013)

P F Tinmore,  _et al,_

I don't think I've missed it, since I've used it so many times.  But, YES, it has been around for a while.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Yep, you missed the obvious.
> ...


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## irosie91 (Jan 18, 2013)

Mr R.    If   the  PA    becomes a  "country"    what happens to  Gaza?


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 18, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> 
> I don't think I've missed it, since I've used it so many times.  But, YES, it has been around for a while.
> 
> ...


----------



## RoccoR (Jan 18, 2013)

irosie91,  _et al,_

This is an interesting question.



irosie91 said:


> Mr R.    If   the  PA    becomes a  "country"    what happens to  Gaza?


*(COMMENT)*

By many accounts, including a couple members of this discussion group, there is no real love between the Palestinian that is the insurgent, and the Palestinian that lives for peace.  There is no real dividing label or characteristic that you can put on them, for which you will not find an exception.  And, there is no quick way to tell them apart.

My impression is that most of the Gazians are much more militant and are not interested in the FATAH Peace and Statehood Initiatives spawned in the West Bank.  So, it is quite possible that the Gazians will stick to insurgent tactics.  Although it is possible that "some" People of Gaza  might be tired and want to chose the pathway to a peaceful settlement, Palestinians are known to kill their own that cooperate with those that oppose the insurgency.

At this point we just don't have enough data points in the set to accurately make a prediction.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## irosie91 (Jan 18, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> irosie91,  _et al,_
> 
> This is an interesting question.
> 
> ...



my impression is that  Gazans have been much more intensely propagandized ---
but even more important is they lost  an advantage with the INTIFADA  that the 
PA  people are regaining---that is the ECONOMIC  interaction.


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 18, 2013)

irosie91 said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > irosie91,  _et al,_
> ...



What makes you say that?


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jan 18, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> 
> I think the Wakseh between the Fatah&#8211;Hamas, politically; not because of the dispute, but what the ultimate reaction is going to be by the Palestinians.
> 
> ...



rocco, 

The people are going to take control of this, in my opinion.

Neither Fatah or Hamas are acting for them. 

http://english.alarabiya.net/views/2013/01/18/261127.html

Sherri


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## P F Tinmore (Jan 18, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> ...



ISM, Free Gaza, BDS, IAW are all people movements. None of them are related to any political party. It is just as well.


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