# Average teacher salary VS median income by state



## rdean

Free By 50: Teacher Pay vs Median Incomes by State

What made me start this thread was because on the news, after Gov. Christie talked about New Jersey, they reported that New Jersey had 212 thousand millionaires state wide and 102 thousand teachers.  

The average teacher's salary in New Jersey is $58,156.00 while the median state income is $64,070.00.  That means teachers make 91% of the median state income.

Here is a list of "starting salaries" by state:

Teacher Salaries By State | Average Salaries For Teachers | Beginning Salaries For Teachers | Teacher Raises | TeacherPortal.com

Starting salary in Wisconsin is a measly $25,000.  I had no idea it was that low.  25 grand.

When right wingers point out a teaching job that pays $100,000, it's because they have a Masters and have been teaching for 20 years or they live in an area where the standard of living is that high.

Right wingers chasing teachers out of their areas might have a "silver lining".  Liberals areas will have the pick of the best.  The best jobs will go to liberals and right wingers can fight with illegal immigrants over who gets to pick the biggest apples and the plumpest strawberries.


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## asterism

What's the significance of median income?


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## asterism

From the link:



> I also found Census data on median household income.



Hmmmm.......

Anyone else see a problem with this comparison?


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## asterism

Rdean do you know the difference between average and median?  The author in your link does not and your title implies that you don't either.


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## rdean

asterism said:


> Rdean do you know the difference between average and median?  The author in your link does not and your title implies that you don't either.



http://www.bvmarketdata.com/pdf/Median-Mean.pdf

0.45
0.47
0.49
0.49
0.52
0.55
0.55
0.60
0.61 Middle of sorted sample set
0.62
0.70
0.74
0.76
0.80
0.91
5.30
10.40
0.61 Median
1.47 Mean (Average)

If you simple took the salaries of everyone in the state, added them together, and divided by the number of people, it would skew the results.  You wouldn't really get the salary of the middle of the state.

But for teachers, they are ALL teachers.  So it's not that same.


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## del

rdean said:


> asterism said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rdean do you know the difference between average and median?  The author in your link does not and your title implies that you don't either.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.bvmarketdata.com/pdf/Median-Mean.pdf
> 
> 0.45
> 0.47
> 0.49
> 0.49
> 0.52
> 0.55
> 0.55
> 0.60
> 0.61 Middle of sorted sample set
> 0.62
> 0.70
> 0.74
> 0.76
> 0.80
> 0.91
> 5.30
> 10.40
> 0.61 Median
> 1.47 Mean (Average)
> 
> If you simple took the salaries of everyone in the state, added them together, and divided by the number of people, it would skew the results.  You wouldn't really get the salary of the middle of the state.
> 
> But for teachers, they are ALL teachers.  So it's not that same.
Click to expand...


neither is comparing an individual salary to a household income.


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## syrenn

rdean said:


> Free By 50: Teacher Pay vs Median Incomes by State
> 
> What made me start this thread was because on the news, after Gov. Christie talked about New Jersey, they reported that New Jersey had 212 thousand millionaires state wide and 102 thousand teachers.
> 
> The average teacher's salary in New Jersey is $58,156.00 while the median state income is $64,070.00.  That means teachers make 91% of the median state income.
> 
> Here is a list of "starting salaries" by state:
> 
> Teacher Salaries By State | Average Salaries For Teachers | Beginning Salaries For Teachers | Teacher Raises | TeacherPortal.com
> 
> Starting salary in Wisconsin is a measly $25,000.  I had no idea it was that low.  25 grand.
> 
> When right wingers point out a teaching job that pays $100,000, it's because they have a Masters and have been teaching for 20 years or they live in an area where the standard of living is that high.
> 
> Right wingers chasing teachers out of their areas might have a "silver lining".  Liberals areas will have the pick of the best.  The best jobs will go to liberals and right wingers can fight with illegal immigrants over who gets to pick the biggest apples and the plumpest strawberries.




You are not taking into account the benefits. A 25k job PLUS the benefits is quite a bit more then what you assert. You need to include that into the mix.


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## asterism

rdean said:


> asterism said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rdean do you know the difference between average and median?  The author in your link does not and your title implies that you don't either.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.bvmarketdata.com/pdf/Median-Mean.pdf
> 
> 0.45
> 0.47
> 0.49
> 0.49
> 0.52
> 0.55
> 0.55
> 0.60
> 0.61 Middle of sorted sample set
> 0.62
> 0.70
> 0.74
> 0.76
> 0.80
> 0.91
> 5.30
> 10.40
> 0.61 Median
> 1.47 Mean (Average)
> 
> If you simple took the salaries of everyone in the state, added them together, and divided by the number of people, it would skew the results.  You wouldn't really get the salary of the middle of the state.
> 
> But for teachers, they are ALL teachers.  So it's not that same.
Click to expand...


Why does your title say "average" when there is no data that shows average?


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## Jroc

> What made me start this thread was because on the news, after Gov. Christie talked about New Jersey, they reported that New Jersey had 212 thousand millionaires state wide and 102 thousand teachers.



I fail to see the relevance of the number of millionaires they have..Also those numbers don't include benefits and the fact that most teachers only work 9 months out of the year.


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## asterism

del said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> asterism said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rdean do you know the difference between average and median?  The author in your link does not and your title implies that you don't either.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.bvmarketdata.com/pdf/Median-Mean.pdf
> 
> 0.45
> 0.47
> 0.49
> 0.49
> 0.52
> 0.55
> 0.55
> 0.60
> 0.61 Middle of sorted sample set
> 0.62
> 0.70
> 0.74
> 0.76
> 0.80
> 0.91
> 5.30
> 10.40
> 0.61 Median
> 1.47 Mean (Average)
> 
> If you simple took the salaries of everyone in the state, added them together, and divided by the number of people, it would skew the results.  You wouldn't really get the salary of the middle of the state.
> 
> But for teachers, they are ALL teachers.  So it's not that same.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> neither is comparing an individual salary to a household income.
Click to expand...


The funny part is that the link shows that New Hampshire, the state with the lowest percentage of average teacher salary to median statewide household income is 66%.  So one teacher can earn over half the median statewide household income?  I see no problem here especially since they are paid by those very same people who make less than them.


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## Quantum Windbag

rdean said:


> Free By 50: Teacher Pay vs Median Incomes by State
> 
> What made me start this thread was because on the news, after Gov. Christie talked about New Jersey, they reported that New Jersey had 212 thousand millionaires state wide and 102 thousand teachers.
> 
> The average teacher's salary in New Jersey is $58,156.00 while the median state income is $64,070.00.  That means teachers make 91% of the median state income.
> 
> Here is a list of "starting salaries" by state:
> 
> Teacher Salaries By State | Average Salaries For Teachers | Beginning Salaries For Teachers | Teacher Raises | TeacherPortal.com
> 
> Starting salary in Wisconsin is a measly $25,000.  I had no idea it was that low.  25 grand.
> 
> When right wingers point out a teaching job that pays $100,000, it's because they have a Masters and have been teaching for 20 years or they live in an area where the standard of living is that high.
> 
> Right wingers chasing teachers out of their areas might have a "silver lining".  Liberals areas will have the pick of the best.  The best jobs will go to liberals and right wingers can fight with illegal immigrants over who gets to pick the biggest apples and the plumpest strawberries.



Nice try.

If you bother to check your numbers you will see that teachers, when you compensate for hours worked, get paid more than private sector workers. Additionally, if you compare them to private school teachers, they make  $13,540 more than private school teachers, and that is without the benefits.

Average salaries for full-time teachers in public and private elementary and secondary schools, by selected characteristics: 2007-08


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## rdean

Here is a very interesting site.  It gives median and average salaries by "zip-code".

If you have a single billionaire in the group, average salary zooms up, but that hardly affects "median" income.  Teachers "median and average" are probably pretty close to the same.  After all, how many millionaires become teachers?

Average Income per Person in the United States by Zip Code


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## asterism

Hold up, I found an error in my median vs. average statement.  The teacher salaries are indeed stated as "average."

My apologies to Rdean.


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## Quantum Windbag

asterism said:


> Rdean do you know the difference between average and median?  The author in your link does not and your title implies that you don't either.



He doesn't.


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## asterism

rdean said:


> Here is a very interesting site.  It gives median and average salaries by "zip-code".
> 
> If you have a single billionaire in the group, average salary zooms up, but that hardly affects "median" income.  Teachers "median and average" are probably pretty close to the same.  After all, how many millionaires become teachers?
> 
> Average Income per Person in the United States by Zip Code



Ah.  So average is a poor benchmark used alone.  What makes you think median or any other statistical indicator should be used alone?


----------



## Quantum Windbag

asterism said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> asterism said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rdean do you know the difference between average and median?  The author in your link does not and your title implies that you don't either.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.bvmarketdata.com/pdf/Median-Mean.pdf
> 
> 0.45
> 0.47
> 0.49
> 0.49
> 0.52
> 0.55
> 0.55
> 0.60
> 0.61 Middle of sorted sample set
> 0.62
> 0.70
> 0.74
> 0.76
> 0.80
> 0.91
> 5.30
> 10.40
> 0.61 Median
> 1.47 Mean (Average)
> 
> If you simple took the salaries of everyone in the state, added them together, and divided by the number of people, it would skew the results.  You wouldn't really get the salary of the middle of the state.
> 
> But for teachers, they are ALL teachers.  So it's not that same.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why does your title say "average" when there is no data that shows average?
Click to expand...


Because rdean is the 2nd stupidest person on this message board. (I used to think he is the stupidest, but someone from the right is actually dumber.)


----------



## asterism

rdean said:


> Here is a very interesting site.  It gives median and average salaries by "zip-code".
> 
> If you have a single billionaire in the group, average salary zooms up, but that hardly affects "median" income.  Teachers "median and average" are probably pretty close to the same.  After all, how many millionaires become teachers?
> 
> Average Income per Person in the United States by Zip Code



I know 4 of them.  Teaching is probably what I'll do when I hit my magic number.


----------



## rdean

Quantum Windbag said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> Free By 50: Teacher Pay vs Median Incomes by State
> 
> What made me start this thread was because on the news, after Gov. Christie talked about New Jersey, they reported that New Jersey had 212 thousand millionaires state wide and 102 thousand teachers.
> 
> The average teacher's salary in New Jersey is $58,156.00 while the median state income is $64,070.00.  That means teachers make 91% of the median state income.
> 
> Here is a list of "starting salaries" by state:
> 
> Teacher Salaries By State | Average Salaries For Teachers | Beginning Salaries For Teachers | Teacher Raises | TeacherPortal.com
> 
> Starting salary in Wisconsin is a measly $25,000.  I had no idea it was that low.  25 grand.
> 
> When right wingers point out a teaching job that pays $100,000, it's because they have a Masters and have been teaching for 20 years or they live in an area where the standard of living is that high.
> 
> Right wingers chasing teachers out of their areas might have a "silver lining".  Liberals areas will have the pick of the best.  The best jobs will go to liberals and right wingers can fight with illegal immigrants over who gets to pick the biggest apples and the plumpest strawberries.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nice try.
> 
> If you bother to check your numbers you will see that teachers, when you compensate for hours worked, get paid more than private sector workers. Additionally, if you compare them to private school teachers, they make  $13,540 more than private school teachers, and that is without the benefits.
> 
> Average salaries for full-time teachers in public and private elementary and secondary schools, by selected characteristics: 2007-08
Click to expand...


So you are taking everything into consideration?  Class size?  Educational requirements?  Starting salary?  Continuing education?

The truth is, all you right wingers are arguing why "Teachers are bad people who get too much and don't do anything".  You did the SAME DAMN THING with scientists.  All the posts about how scientists don't do anything but rest on their education, sit on their fat butts and collect government stipends.   

Always looking for someone to point a finger at.  Someone to blame.  Looking for an accusation.  Because that's all you've got.  You know it.  I  know it.  It can't be denied.


----------



## AquaAthena

syrenn said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> Free By 50: Teacher Pay vs Median Incomes by State
> 
> What made me start this thread was because on the news, after Gov. Christie talked about New Jersey, they reported that New Jersey had 212 thousand millionaires state wide and 102 thousand teachers.
> 
> The average teacher's salary in New Jersey is $58,156.00 while the median state income is $64,070.00.  That means teachers make 91% of the median state income.
> 
> Here is a list of "starting salaries" by state:
> 
> Teacher Salaries By State | Average Salaries For Teachers | Beginning Salaries For Teachers | Teacher Raises | TeacherPortal.com
> 
> Starting salary in Wisconsin is a measly $25,000.  I had no idea it was that low.  25 grand.
> 
> When right wingers point out a teaching job that pays $100,000, it's because they have a Masters and have been teaching for 20 years or they live in an area where the standard of living is that high.
> 
> Right wingers chasing teachers out of their areas might have a "silver lining".  Liberals areas will have the pick of the best.  The best jobs will go to liberals and right wingers can fight with illegal immigrants over who gets to pick the biggest apples and the plumpest strawberries.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are not taking into account the benefits. A 25k job PLUS the benefits is quite a bit more then what you assert. You need to include that into the mix.
Click to expand...


And the fact that teachers typically work 36 weeks a year as opposed to 50 for the private sector. ( two weeks vacation included in that ) In 2002 my husband, a music teacher with a master's degree, started teaching at a small coastal town in Oregon and his salary was, $47K a year. Great benefits and many days and weeks for vacation, in addition to those 9 months, off. I think it was about an 8 month work year. Plenty of time for a second job in which he played professionally all over the world and won a Platinum award.


----------



## rdean

asterism said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a very interesting site.  It gives median and average salaries by "zip-code".
> 
> If you have a single billionaire in the group, average salary zooms up, but that hardly affects "median" income.  Teachers "median and average" are probably pretty close to the same.  After all, how many millionaires become teachers?
> 
> Average Income per Person in the United States by Zip Code
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know 4 of them.  Teaching is probably what I'll do when I hit my magic number.
Click to expand...


Sure you do.


----------



## rdean

asterism said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> asterism said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rdean do you know the difference between average and median?  The author in your link does not and your title implies that you don't either.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.bvmarketdata.com/pdf/Median-Mean.pdf
> 
> 0.45
> 0.47
> 0.49
> 0.49
> 0.52
> 0.55
> 0.55
> 0.60
> 0.61 Middle of sorted sample set
> 0.62
> 0.70
> 0.74
> 0.76
> 0.80
> 0.91
> 5.30
> 10.40
> 0.61 Median
> 1.47 Mean (Average)
> 
> If you simple took the salaries of everyone in the state, added them together, and divided by the number of people, it would skew the results.  You wouldn't really get the salary of the middle of the state.
> 
> But for teachers, they are ALL teachers.  So it's not that same.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why does your title say "average" when there is no data that shows average?
Click to expand...


Because I included two links to "average" salaries?


----------



## asterism

Middle class area in Jacksonville, FL.  Zip code is 32257, part of an area known as Mandarin, but few properties on the water.  No bad areas though.

Median household income:	$48,452.00
Florida average teacher salary: $43,302

Pretty good.

Statewide for Florida:

Florida average teacher salary: $43,302
Average salary:  $39,386.35

Looks like teachers are doing just fine.


Teacher Salaries By State | Average Salaries For Teachers | Beginning Salaries For Teachers | Teacher Raises | TeacherPortal.com

32257 Zip Code | Jacksonville, Florida | Map & Detailed Profile | Zip Atlas


----------



## syrenn

AquaAthena said:


> syrenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> Free By 50: Teacher Pay vs Median Incomes by State
> 
> What made me start this thread was because on the news, after Gov. Christie talked about New Jersey, they reported that New Jersey had 212 thousand millionaires state wide and 102 thousand teachers.
> 
> The average teacher's salary in New Jersey is $58,156.00 while the median state income is $64,070.00.  That means teachers make 91% of the median state income.
> 
> Here is a list of "starting salaries" by state:
> 
> Teacher Salaries By State | Average Salaries For Teachers | Beginning Salaries For Teachers | Teacher Raises | TeacherPortal.com
> 
> Starting salary in Wisconsin is a measly $25,000.  I had no idea it was that low.  25 grand.
> 
> When right wingers point out a teaching job that pays $100,000, it's because they have a Masters and have been teaching for 20 years or they live in an area where the standard of living is that high.
> 
> Right wingers chasing teachers out of their areas might have a "silver lining".  Liberals areas will have the pick of the best.  The best jobs will go to liberals and right wingers can fight with illegal immigrants over who gets to pick the biggest apples and the plumpest strawberries.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are not taking into account the benefits. A 25k job PLUS the benefits is quite a bit more then what you assert. You need to include that into the mix.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And the fact that teachers typically work 36 weeks a year as opposed to 50 for the private sector. ( two weeks vacation included in that ) In 2002 my husband, a music teacher with a master's degree, started teaching at a small coastal town in Oregon and his salary was, $47K a year. Great benefits and many days and weeks for vacation, in addition to those 9 months, off. I think it was about an 8 month work year. Plenty of time for a second job in which he played professionally all over the world and won a Platinum award.
Click to expand...


So what you are saying is he got 47k for 8 months of work. Not bad.  Any idea what the benefits package was worth?


----------



## asterism

rdean said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> Free By 50: Teacher Pay vs Median Incomes by State
> 
> What made me start this thread was because on the news, after Gov. Christie talked about New Jersey, they reported that New Jersey had 212 thousand millionaires state wide and 102 thousand teachers.
> 
> The average teacher's salary in New Jersey is $58,156.00 while the median state income is $64,070.00.  That means teachers make 91% of the median state income.
> 
> Here is a list of "starting salaries" by state:
> 
> Teacher Salaries By State | Average Salaries For Teachers | Beginning Salaries For Teachers | Teacher Raises | TeacherPortal.com
> 
> Starting salary in Wisconsin is a measly $25,000.  I had no idea it was that low.  25 grand.
> 
> When right wingers point out a teaching job that pays $100,000, it's because they have a Masters and have been teaching for 20 years or they live in an area where the standard of living is that high.
> 
> Right wingers chasing teachers out of their areas might have a "silver lining".  Liberals areas will have the pick of the best.  The best jobs will go to liberals and right wingers can fight with illegal immigrants over who gets to pick the biggest apples and the plumpest strawberries.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nice try.
> 
> If you bother to check your numbers you will see that teachers, when you compensate for hours worked, get paid more than private sector workers. Additionally, if you compare them to private school teachers, they make  $13,540 more than private school teachers, and that is without the benefits.
> 
> Average salaries for full-time teachers in public and private elementary and secondary schools, by selected characteristics: 2007-08
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So you are taking everything into consideration?  Class size?  Educational requirements?  Starting salary?  Continuing education?
> 
> The truth is, all you right wingers are arguing why "Teachers are bad people who get too much and don't do anything".  You did the SAME DAMN THING with scientists.  All the posts about how scientists don't do anything but rest on their education, sit on their fat butts and collect government stipends.
> 
> Always looking for someone to point a finger at.  Someone to blame.  Looking for an accusation.  Because that's all you've got.  You know it.  I  know it.  It can't be denied.
Click to expand...


Not true.

I think teachers are generally paid fairly.  If I had my druthers the top performers would make 6 figures and the bottom of those after cutting the poor performers would make a living wage.  But on average, they are paid fairly in my opinion.  They never get rich on teaching alone, but they also don't have to take any risk.

I know lots of unemployed millionaires.  I don't know *any* unemployed teachers.  What's the value of a recession proof job?


----------



## asterism

rdean said:


> asterism said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a very interesting site.  It gives median and average salaries by "zip-code".
> 
> If you have a single billionaire in the group, average salary zooms up, but that hardly affects "median" income.  Teachers "median and average" are probably pretty close to the same.  After all, how many millionaires become teachers?
> 
> Average Income per Person in the United States by Zip Code
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know 4 of them.  Teaching is probably what I'll do when I hit my magic number.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sure you do.
Click to expand...


You asked, I answered, you disregarded my answer.  What is this a global warming thread?


----------



## asterism

rdean said:


> asterism said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.bvmarketdata.com/pdf/Median-Mean.pdf
> 
> 0.45
> 0.47
> 0.49
> 0.49
> 0.52
> 0.55
> 0.55
> 0.60
> 0.61 Middle of sorted sample set
> 0.62
> 0.70
> 0.74
> 0.76
> 0.80
> 0.91
> 5.30
> 10.40
> 0.61 Median
> 1.47 Mean (Average)
> 
> If you simple took the salaries of everyone in the state, added them together, and divided by the number of people, it would skew the results.  You wouldn't really get the salary of the middle of the state.
> 
> But for teachers, they are ALL teachers.  So it's not that same.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why does your title say "average" when there is no data that shows average?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because I included two links to "average" salaries?
Click to expand...


Keep reading.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/3379395-post13.html


----------



## syrenn

asterism said:


> Middle class area in Jacksonville, FL.  Zip code is 32257, part of an area known as Mandarin, but few properties on the water.  No bad areas though.
> 
> Median household income:	$48,452.00
> Florida average teacher salary: $43,302
> 
> Pretty good.
> 
> Statewide for Florida:
> 
> Florida average teacher salary: $43,302
> Average salary:  $39,386.35
> 
> Looks like teachers are doing just fine.
> 
> 
> Teacher Salaries By State | Average Salaries For Teachers | Beginning Salaries For Teachers | Teacher Raises | TeacherPortal.com
> 
> 32257 Zip Code | Jacksonville, Florida | Map & Detailed Profile | Zip Atlas




Again, those salaries are deceptively..LOW. The sated salary is NOT for 12 months of work and it does NOT include the amount of the benefits package.


----------



## AquaAthena

syrenn said:


> AquaAthena said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> syrenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are not taking into account the benefits. A 25k job PLUS the benefits is quite a bit more then what you assert. You need to include that into the mix.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the fact that teachers typically work 36 weeks a year as opposed to 50 for the private sector. ( two weeks vacation included in that ) In 2002 my husband, a music teacher with a master's degree, started teaching at a small coastal town in Oregon and his salary was, $47K a year. Great benefits and many days and weeks for vacation, in addition to those 9 months, off. I think it was about an 8 month work year. Plenty of time for a second job in which he played professionally all over the world and won a Platinum award.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So what you are saying is he got 47k for 8 months of work. Not bad.  Any idea what the benefits package was worth?
Click to expand...


Noo, wasn't looking at that back then....


----------



## Intense

rdean said:


> Free By 50: Teacher Pay vs Median Incomes by State
> 
> What made me start this thread was because on the news, after Gov. Christie talked about New Jersey, they reported that New Jersey had 212 thousand millionaires state wide and 102 thousand teachers.
> 
> The average teacher's salary in New Jersey is $58,156.00 while the median state income is $64,070.00.  That means teachers make 91% of the median state income.
> 
> Here is a list of "starting salaries" by state:
> 
> Teacher Salaries By State | Average Salaries For Teachers | Beginning Salaries For Teachers | Teacher Raises | TeacherPortal.com
> 
> Starting salary in Wisconsin is a measly $25,000.  I had no idea it was that low.  25 grand.
> 
> When right wingers point out a teaching job that pays $100,000, it's because they have a Masters and have been teaching for 20 years or they live in an area where the standard of living is that high.
> 
> Right wingers chasing teachers out of their areas might have a "silver lining".  Liberals areas will have the pick of the best.  The best jobs will go to liberals and right wingers can fight with illegal immigrants over who gets to pick the biggest apples and the plumpest strawberries.



What is the cash value of all combined benefits RD???


----------



## Quantum Windbag

rdean said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> Free By 50: Teacher Pay vs Median Incomes by State
> 
> What made me start this thread was because on the news, after Gov. Christie talked about New Jersey, they reported that New Jersey had 212 thousand millionaires state wide and 102 thousand teachers.
> 
> The average teacher's salary in New Jersey is $58,156.00 while the median state income is $64,070.00.  That means teachers make 91% of the median state income.
> 
> Here is a list of "starting salaries" by state:
> 
> Teacher Salaries By State | Average Salaries For Teachers | Beginning Salaries For Teachers | Teacher Raises | TeacherPortal.com
> 
> Starting salary in Wisconsin is a measly $25,000.  I had no idea it was that low.  25 grand.
> 
> When right wingers point out a teaching job that pays $100,000, it's because they have a Masters and have been teaching for 20 years or they live in an area where the standard of living is that high.
> 
> Right wingers chasing teachers out of their areas might have a "silver lining".  Liberals areas will have the pick of the best.  The best jobs will go to liberals and right wingers can fight with illegal immigrants over who gets to pick the biggest apples and the plumpest strawberries.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nice try.
> 
> If you bother to check your numbers you will see that teachers, when you compensate for hours worked, get paid more than private sector workers. Additionally, if you compare them to private school teachers, they make  $13,540 more than private school teachers, and that is without the benefits.
> 
> Average salaries for full-time teachers in public and private elementary and secondary schools, by selected characteristics: 2007-08
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So you are taking everything into consideration?  Class size?  Educational requirements?  Starting salary?  Continuing education?
> 
> The truth is, all you right wingers are arguing why "Teachers are bad people who get too much and don't do anything".  You did the SAME DAMN THING with scientists.  All the posts about how scientists don't do anything but rest on their education, sit on their fat butts and collect government stipends.
> 
> Always looking for someone to point a finger at.  Someone to blame.  Looking for an accusation.  Because that's all you've got.  You know it.  I  know it.  It can't be denied.
Click to expand...


Take a look at the site, everything is listed, including education levels, continuing education, and experience. Plus, it is a government site so you can not dismiss it as right wing. Public school teachers outstrip private school teachers across the board. And most private school teachers do not get benefits. On top of that, private schools consistently outstrip public schools in academic performance, graduation rates, college placement, and graduation from advanced studies courses.

I am not saying teachers are bad, I am just pointing out that your insistence that public school teachers are underpaid does not stack up. The facts do not agree with your position, and you are stupid for sticking to it in the face of contrary data. If you cared half as much about science as you claimed you do you would admit that you are wrong, and go on to something else.

Prove to me, and everyone else on the board, that you are not as stupid as you pretend you are. Admit that the data you are relying on is flawed, and examine the data that the government has presented. Think about it, and show you are an adult by admitting that you have been lied to.

Don't be angry at me because I am the first person to insist you look at the truth, be angry at the people who have been lying to you for years.


----------



## asterism

syrenn said:


> asterism said:
> 
> 
> 
> Middle class area in Jacksonville, FL.  Zip code is 32257, part of an area known as Mandarin, but few properties on the water.  No bad areas though.
> 
> Median household income:	$48,452.00
> Florida average teacher salary: $43,302
> 
> Pretty good.
> 
> Statewide for Florida:
> 
> Florida average teacher salary: $43,302
> Average salary:  $39,386.35
> 
> Looks like teachers are doing just fine.
> 
> 
> Teacher Salaries By State | Average Salaries For Teachers | Beginning Salaries For Teachers | Teacher Raises | TeacherPortal.com
> 
> 32257 Zip Code | Jacksonville, Florida | Map & Detailed Profile | Zip Atlas
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, those salaries are deceptively..LOW. The sated salary is NOT for 12 months of work and it does NOT include the amount of the benefits package.
Click to expand...


Oh I agree.

I've never met a poor teacher.  When some of them bitch about how much education they have and how they aren't rich I always inform them that there are plenty of other places where they can use that education to make more money if they choose.

"But I don't get job security where you work."

"Risk vs. reward.  You never learned that in college?"


----------



## syrenn

asterism said:


> syrenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> asterism said:
> 
> 
> 
> Middle class area in Jacksonville, FL.  Zip code is 32257, part of an area known as Mandarin, but few properties on the water.  No bad areas though.
> 
> Median household income:	$48,452.00
> Florida average teacher salary: $43,302
> 
> Pretty good.
> 
> Statewide for Florida:
> 
> Florida average teacher salary: $43,302
> Average salary:  $39,386.35
> 
> Looks like teachers are doing just fine.
> 
> 
> Teacher Salaries By State | Average Salaries For Teachers | Beginning Salaries For Teachers | Teacher Raises | TeacherPortal.com
> 
> 32257 Zip Code | Jacksonville, Florida | Map & Detailed Profile | Zip Atlas
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, those salaries are deceptively..LOW. The sated salary is NOT for 12 months of work and it does NOT include the amount of the benefits package.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh I agree.
> 
> I've never met a poor teacher.  When some of them bitch about how much education they have and how they aren't rich I always inform them that there are plenty of other places where they can use that education to make more money if they choose.
> 
> "But I don't get job security where you work."
> 
> "Risk vs. reward.  You never learned that in college?"
Click to expand...


Exactly. Its a sweet enough deal that they wont leave the job, and fight tooth and nail to keep it the way it is.


----------



## JamesInFlorida

Wow people who don't know the difference between mean and median, and when it's more accurate to use them really shouldn't act as if they know anything about business/economics whatsoever.

As a side note Median incomes are used with salaries because it's more accurate as it helps to eliminate inaccurate data due to extremes. 

For example, Bill Gates lives in Medina, Washington. The town only has a population 3,000 people (1,100 households). The median income is a little under $134K. If one were to go by the average income-it wouldn't be an accurate measurement of the town, because it would more than likely be much higher than the overwhelming majority salary of the people of the town.


----------



## WorldWatcher

Quantum Windbag said:


> Take a look at the site, everything is listed, including education levels, continuing education, and experience. Plus, it is a government site so you can not dismiss it as right wing. Public school teachers outstrip private school teachers across the board. And most private school teachers do not get benefits.



I don't disagree, but I think if you were to be able to look at demographics and compare marital status, length in career (private v. public schools), certifications, and education you would also find some interesting indicators.

IMHO they would be that more often private school teachers have a working spouse and are not the sole source of family income and medical benefits, they less often make it a "career" as there is less provided for long term financial security and lack of health benefits, that significant percentage are working until they can get a public school job, that many schools do not require certification or comparable education backgrounds.


I mention that because my sister was a private school teacher for about 5 years.  Pay was about half of a public school teachers, no benefits, and retirement options.  She loved the smaller classes and the kids, but she had no choice but to go public to support herself, make a dent in student loans, and begin to plan for her future.





Quantum Windbag said:


> On top of that, private schools consistently outstrip public schools in academic performance, graduation rates, college placement, and graduation from advanced studies courses.



Correlation though does not equal causation.  (Hmmm - did I get that right?)

1. Private schools are not required to take all "comers" like public schools are.

2. Private schools can forgo taking on special education students and their associated higher costs (and typically poorer academic performance).

3. Private schools can screen students for academic performance and reject those that don't meet entrance standards.

4. Private schools can expel students for poor academic performance (artificially raising their record of academic achievement).

5. Private school can require certain levels of parental involvement which contributes to student performance.




****************************

Not disagreeing with what you said, just pointing out some other factors.



>>>>


----------



## Leweman

This has been argued a million times before in the last 2 weeks.  I think its been established that teachers have it pretty damn good for the most part.  I assume there are some pretty crappy districts to teach in.  Maybe those teachers should receive hazard pay.  Other than that its better then most middle class jobs Id say.


----------



## Samson

rdean said:


> Here is a list of "starting salaries" by state:
> 
> Teacher Salaries By State | Average Salaries For Teachers | Beginning Salaries For Teachers | Teacher Raises | TeacherPortal.com
> 
> Starting salary in Wisconsin is a measly $25,000.  I had no idea it was that low.  25 grand.



And in Texas, where collective bargaining by teachers is outlawed, the starting salary is $33,000.

Other than your usual point: To publically demonstrate your own intellectual incompetence, was the point of this thread to show how little the teacher's union in WI helps beginning teachers?


----------



## asterism

JamesInFlorida said:


> Wow people who don't know the difference between mean and median, and when it's more accurate to use them really shouldn't act as if they know anything about business/economics whatsoever.



I think that was directed at me.  You should try to get past the first 3 pages of a statistics book.  Neither are accurate nor appropriate to be used alone.



JamesInFlorida said:


> As a side note Median incomes are used with salaries because it's more accurate as it helps to eliminate inaccurate data due to extremes.



That's patently false.  In a normal distribution the mean equals the median (and the mode, by the way).  So when the two are different the only use of the median is as an indicator of whether the distribution is normal or not.  If it's not, then other methods to calculate a trend are needed.



JamesInFlorida said:


> For example, Bill Gates lives in Medina, Washington. The town only has a population 3,000 people (1,100 households). The median income is a little under $134K. If one were to go by the average income-it wouldn't be an accurate measurement of the town, because it would more than likely be much higher than the overwhelming majority salary of the people of the town.



Then perhaps a mean of all incomes within one standard deviation might be more accurate.  It would be hard to know unless an analysis of variance is done.  But please, continue to educate me on the use of statistics.  You obviously don't do it for work so perhaps you're one of "those who can't..." type of teachers?


----------



## JamesInFlorida

asterism said:


> JamesInFlorida said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow people who don't know the difference between mean and median, and when it's more accurate to use them really shouldn't act as if they know anything about business/economics whatsoever.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think that was directed at me.  You should try to get past the first 3 pages of a statistics book.  Neither are accurate nor appropriate to be used alone.
> 
> 
> 
> JamesInFlorida said:
> 
> 
> 
> As a side note Median incomes are used with salaries because it's more accurate as it helps to eliminate inaccurate data due to extremes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's patently false.  In a normal distribution the mean equals the median (and the mode, by the way).  So when the two are different the only use of the median is as an indicator of whether the distribution is normal or not.  If it's not, then other methods to calculate a trend are needed.
> 
> 
> 
> JamesInFlorida said:
> 
> 
> 
> For example, Bill Gates lives in Medina, Washington. The town only has a population 3,000 people (1,100 households). The median income is a little under $134K. If one were to go by the average income-it wouldn't be an accurate measurement of the town, because it would more than likely be much higher than the overwhelming majority salary of the people of the town.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then perhaps a mean of all incomes within one standard deviation might be more accurate.  It would be hard to know unless an analysis of variance is done.  But please, continue to educate me on the use of statistics.  You obviously don't do it for work so perhaps you're one of "those who can't..." type of teachers?
Click to expand...


I didn't direct my post towards you, so relax over there. And I never said that median was the most efficient way to compare the salaries together, I simply said on its own it's more efficient than comparing it to just the mean salary on it's own. You're reading too much into my post. 

And for the record I have a business degree, and have taken multiple statistics classes, and while I'm no expert on it, I'm familiar with using standard deviations. And no, I'm not a teacher. 

-Just for shits and giggles I'd be willing to bet the standard of deviation for a teachers salary compared to the mean would be slightly high (as long as you took the sample from a population of those with 4-year degrees, or more). It wouldn't be extremely high-I'm not saying that, but it wouldn't be as low as some on here would suggest.

And also it would obviously change from state to state, where depending on the economic situation of the state the variance of the data within the sample populations would differ from one another. But with that said I'd be willing to bet the teacher's from most states would still have a pretty high stand deviation from the mean (even if you factor in their benefits as part of their salaries).

Now you may not agree with my opinions on where they would fall on a distribution-and that's ok, but you really shouldn't assume someone isn't familiar with basic statistics (I don't claim to be a whiz at the subject). And don't take posts so personally-as I said it wasn't geared towards you.

edit: and a normal distribution of all salaries in the US would not be accurate. The sample you'd have to look at is those with 4-year degrees, because those are the one who're as qualified as a teacher is.


----------



## DaGoose

syrenn said:


> asterism said:
> 
> 
> 
> Middle class area in Jacksonville, FL.  Zip code is 32257, part of an area known as Mandarin, but few properties on the water.  No bad areas though.
> 
> Median household income:	$48,452.00
> Florida average teacher salary: $43,302
> 
> Pretty good.
> 
> Statewide for Florida:
> 
> Florida average teacher salary: $43,302
> Average salary:  $39,386.35
> 
> Looks like teachers are doing just fine.
> 
> 
> Teacher Salaries By State | Average Salaries For Teachers | Beginning Salaries For Teachers | Teacher Raises | TeacherPortal.com
> 
> 32257 Zip Code | Jacksonville, Florida | Map & Detailed Profile | Zip Atlas
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, those salaries are deceptively..LOW. The sated salary is NOT for 12 months of work and it does NOT include the amount of the benefits package.
Click to expand...


And if we were going to compare them, why not compare their income to the average person with a Master's Degree like my wife has?


----------



## Quantum Windbag

DaGoose said:


> syrenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> asterism said:
> 
> 
> 
> Middle class area in Jacksonville, FL.  Zip code is 32257, part of an area known as Mandarin, but few properties on the water.  No bad areas though.
> 
> Median household income:    $48,452.00
> Florida average teacher salary: $43,302
> 
> Pretty good.
> 
> Statewide for Florida:
> 
> Florida average teacher salary: $43,302
> Average salary:  $39,386.35
> 
> Looks like teachers are doing just fine.
> 
> 
> Teacher Salaries By State | Average Salaries For Teachers | Beginning Salaries For Teachers | Teacher Raises | TeacherPortal.com
> 
> 32257 Zip Code | Jacksonville, Florida | Map & Detailed Profile | Zip Atlas
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, those salaries are deceptively..LOW. The sated salary is NOT for 12 months of work and it does NOT include the amount of the benefits package.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And if we were going to compare them, why not compare their income to the average person with a Master's Degree like my wife has?
Click to expand...


Because that is completely deceptive, it ignores what the degree is in. A masters of engineering has more economic value than one in art history, so just comparing them based on how long they went to school ignores what they studied.


----------



## DaGoose

Quantum Windbag said:


> DaGoose said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> syrenn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, those salaries are deceptively..LOW. The sated salary is NOT for 12 months of work and it does NOT include the amount of the benefits package.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And if we were going to compare them, why not compare their income to the average person with a Master's Degree like my wife has?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Because that is completely deceptive, it ignores what the degree is in. A masters of engineering has more economic value than one in art history, so just comparing them based on how long they went to school ignores what they studied.
Click to expand...


I agree. 

I think someone with a Master's Degree in child development who can turn the lives of children around and make them productive adults has FAR more worth most.


----------



## editec

asterism said:


> What's the significance of median income?


 
You don't know what median means?

50% of all incomes are above the median, 50% below.


----------



## editec

Quantum Windbag said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice try.
> 
> If you bother to check your numbers you will see that teachers, when you compensate for hours worked, get paid more than private sector workers. Additionally, if you compare them to private school teachers, they make $13,540 more than private school teachers, and that is without the benefits.
> 
> Average salaries for full-time teachers in public and private elementary and secondary schools, by selected characteristics: 2007-08
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you are taking everything into consideration? Class size? Educational requirements? Starting salary? Continuing education?
> 
> The truth is, all you right wingers are arguing why "Teachers are bad people who get too much and don't do anything". You did the SAME DAMN THING with scientists. All the posts about how scientists don't do anything but rest on their education, sit on their fat butts and collect government stipends.
> 
> Always looking for someone to point a finger at. Someone to blame. Looking for an accusation. Because that's all you've got. You know it. I know it. It can't be denied.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Take a look at the site, everything is listed, including education levels, continuing education, and experience. Plus, it is a government site so you can not dismiss it as right wing. Public school teachers outstrip private school teachers across the board. And most private school teachers do not get benefits. On top of that, private schools consistently outstrip public schools in academic performance, graduation rates, college placement, and graduation from advanced studies courses.
> 
> I am not saying teachers are bad, I am just pointing out that your insistence that public school teachers are underpaid does not stack up. The facts do not agree with your position, and you are stupid for sticking to it in the face of contrary data. If you cared half as much about science as you claimed you do you would admit that you are wrong, and go on to something else.
> 
> Prove to me, and everyone else on the board, that you are not as stupid as you pretend you are. Admit that the data you are relying on is flawed, and examine the data that the government has presented. Think about it, and show you are an adult by admitting that you have been lied to.
> 
> Don't be angry at me because I am the first person to insist you look at the truth, be angry at the people who have been lying to you for years.
Click to expand...

 
Comparing public school educator salaries to private school salaries can be extremely misleading.

Many private school educators get ROOM AND BOARD, in addition to salary and benefits.
And every private school educator I knew (and I knew a lot of them) get health care, contrary to what some here have claimed.

So what is the market value of room and board?

Depends, I suppose on the state of the room and board, doesn't it?


----------



## asterism

editec said:


> asterism said:
> 
> 
> 
> What's the significance of median income?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You don't know what median means?
> 
> 50% of all incomes are above the median, 50% below.
Click to expand...


That's the definition, true.  What's the significance?


----------



## editec

asterism said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> asterism said:
> 
> 
> 
> What's the significance of median income?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You don't know what median means?
> 
> 50% of all incomes are above the median, 50% below.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's the definition, true. What's the significance?
Click to expand...

 
I don't understand the question.

Significance of *the median?*

Here's why it is a useful way of looking at a set of data.

The median describes a statistic...it is designed to help people make sense of large sets of data.

_That_ is its signficance.

If you make the median income, half the workers make more than you do, and half make less.

Seriously, this is confusing you?

Let's take a set of stats.

4, 6, 10, 11, 12, 15, 2000

*What is the average of that data set? 2058/7 = 294*

*What is the median of that data set? 11*


See the difference? 

That 2000 number wildly throws off the _average _thus it might mislead you if you used it to try to understand that data set.

Of course, this (and all)statistical method actually makes a lot more sense when the data set isn't just a few numbers (like my example) but thousands of data points.

There ARE times when finding an average gives you a clearer picture of what's happening than the median does.


Average median and mode are three ways of looking at large data sets.

Each has its place dependeing on the way the data is, and each has its shortcomings, too.

MODE is the most frequent number found in a data set, for example.

If you don't understand at least the basics of statistical analysis, then you really cannot understand MOST of what people debate in social science issues.

What's more if you don't understand at least some statistical methodology, you are set up to be MISLEAD by those who do.


----------



## WorldWatcher

editec said:


> Many private school educators get ROOM AND BOARD, in addition to salary and benefits.
> And every private school educator I knew (and I knew a lot of them) get health care, contrary to what some here have claimed.




1.  Could you support the ROOM AND BOARD comment with any kind of data?  I'm not saying it doesn't happen early for the odd boarding school, but I would posit that it is pretty rare in the general private school teaching population.  To me, many is more than a few, so many could be 6 or 7 people.  However when compared as a percentage of total private school teachers I'd bet the percentage is very, VERY small.


2.   My sister was a private school teacher for 5-years and the pay was about 1/2 of what public school teachers in the area made and no benefits (no paid vacation, no health care, no retirement).  She loved the kids and smaller class sized but eventually had to go public to pay the bills, student loans, and be able to prepare for retirement.



>>>>


----------



## asterism

editec said:


> asterism said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> You don't know what median means?
> 
> 50% of all incomes are above the median, 50% below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's the definition, true. What's the significance?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't understand the question.
> 
> Significance of *the median?*
> 
> Here's why it is a useful way of looking at a set of data.
> 
> The median describes a statistic...it is designed to help people make sense of large sets of data.
> 
> _That_ is its signficance.
> 
> If you make the median income, half the workers make more than you do, and half make less.
> 
> Seriously, this is confusing you?
> 
> Let's take a set of stats.
> 
> 4, 6, 10, 11, 12, 15, 2000
> 
> *What is the average of that data set? 2058/7 = 294*
> 
> *What is the median of that data set? 11*
> 
> 
> See the difference?
> 
> That 2000 number wildly throws off the _average _thus it might mislead you if you used it to try to understand that data set.
> 
> Of course, this (and all)statistical method actually makes a lot more sense when the data set isn't just a few numbers (like my example) but thousands of data points.
> 
> There ARE times when finding an average gives you a clearer picture of what's happening than the median does.
> 
> 
> Average median and mode are three ways of looking at large data sets.
> 
> Each has its place dependeing on the way the data is, and each has its shortcomings, too.
> 
> MODE is the most frequent number found in a data set, for example.
> 
> If you don't understand at least the basics of statistical analysis, then you really cannot understand MOST of what people debate in social science issues.
> 
> What's more if you don't understand at least some statistical methodology, you are set up to be MISLEAD by those who do.
Click to expand...


Your points are quite valid, especially regarding the basics and the propensity to be misled.

So, if income were distributed like this like this 10 years ago:

1 million, 100K, 75K, 50K, 40K, 40K, 10K, 10K, 5K, 5k, 2K, 1K, 1K

And this presently:

10 million, 100K, 75K, 50K, 40K, 40K, 10K, 10K, 5K, 5k, 2K, 1K, 1K

What's the significance of the median?


----------



## DaGoose

WorldWatcher said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> .....My sister was a private school teacher for 5-years and the pay was about 1/2 of what public school teachers in the area made and no benefits (no paid vacation, no health care, no retirement).  She loved the kids and smaller class sized but eventually had to go public to pay the bills, student loans, and be able to prepare for retirement........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow. Where to start..............
> 
> 1) I find it telling that your sister ended up going to a public school district (and, I assume union represented) in order to get a teaching job that paid something close to a living wage.
> 
> 2) With classes that are 1/2 the size the teacher/student personal time ratio would be twice the average public school teacher. No wonder private schools score higher on tests.
> 
> 3) And most important......Since they are paying tuition it would be a very safe bet that the parents are much more active in the school.
Click to expand...


----------



## chanel

Maybe some of these laid off teachers can get a job painting.



> #The Sun-Sentinel today reported that: #
> 
> The Broward County School District last year paid about 34 of its painters and 24 of its roofers at least $59,000  more per day than it paid teachers with 16 years of experience. #



Report: Florida public teachers salaries keep dropping | The Florida Independent


----------



## Bern80

Woe is the plight of the underpaid public school teacher huh? Assuming that teachers really do make 10% less than the avg. income in that state, there is a very simple way for teachers to make up that 10% difference or even more.........WORK THE REST OF THE YEAR LIKE EVERYONE ELSE!


----------



## NYcarbineer

A teacher has 4 to 6 years, at least, of higher education/training and is working in the profession they were trained in.

What's the average level of education in this country.  What percent of Americans are working at the level they were trained (as opposed to being underemployed)?

Clearly teachers are underpaid.


----------



## Bern80

NYcarbineer said:


> A teacher has 4 to 6 years, at least, of higher education/training and is working in the profession they were trained in.
> 
> What's the average level of education in this country.  What percent of Americans are working at the level they were trained (as opposed to being underemployed)?
> 
> Clearly teachers are underpaid.



Umm did you miss my post? THEY DON'T WORK A QUARTER OF THE YEAR LIKE THE REST OF US. 

Secondly, a person is not paied to compensate for their training. They are paid what the market says their skills are worth.


----------



## Baruch Menachem

Weird.    

What matters is not pay vs everyone else's pay.  But pay vs performance, or cost vs Performance.

What would be more interesting would be average school cost per pupil  vs average sat score by district.

There is anecdotal evidence that these numbers are inversely proportional.  IE, the highest cost schools like in NJ, Chicago and DC have the lowest performance metrics.


----------



## Bern80

WorldWatcher said:


> 1.  Could you support the ROOM AND BOARD comment with any kind of data?  I'm not saying it doesn't happen early for the odd boarding school, but I would posit that it is pretty rare in the general private school teaching population.  To me, many is more than a few, so many could be 6 or 7 people.  However when compared as a percentage of total private school teachers I'd bet the percentage is very, VERY small.



I can tell you at the private college I went to some teachers do get free room and board. Now in the interest of full discclosure those that did were either monks or nuns as there was an on campus monastery at our school. But that type of private college is not as rare as you might think.


----------



## HockeyDad

> Weird.
> 
> What matters is not pay vs everyone else's pay. But pay vs performance, or cost vs Performance.
> 
> What would be more interesting would be average school cost per pupil vs average sat score by district.
> 
> There is anecdotal evidence that these numbers are inversely proportional. IE, the highest cost schools like in NJ, Chicago and DC have the lowest performance metrics.



I think it is common knowledge that the quality of a child's education had everything to do with the parents of that child and precious little to do with the teachers.  If daddy is in jail for armed robbery and mommy is a crack whore, the chances of a teacher being able to educate that child are slim to none.

Here in Wisconsin, the inner city schools which are populated almost exclusively with black kids, the Great Schools rating is an average of 2 out of 10 or worse.  Go 10 miles out into the white suburbs and the Great Schools rating is an average of 9 out of 10 or better.  Are the teachers that much better 10 miles away?  Absolutely not...... but the parents are.  This is easily verifiable.  Simply go to wwwgreatschoolsorg and see for yourself.  The ratings are based strictly on standardized test scores.


----------



## WorldWatcher

Bern80 said:


> WorldWatcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1.  Could you support the ROOM AND BOARD comment with any kind of data?  I'm not saying it doesn't happen early for the odd boarding school, but I would posit that it is pretty rare in the general private school teaching population.  To me, many is more than a few, so many could be 6 or 7 people.  However when compared as a percentage of total private school teachers I'd bet the percentage is very, VERY small.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can tell you at the private college I went to some teachers do get free room and board. Now in the interest of full discclosure those that did were either monks or nuns as there was an on campus monastery at our school. But that type of private college is not as rare as you might think.
Click to expand...



The request was for evidence supporting your claim, a single anecdotal statement is not evidence.

There are approximately 2,300 private colleges and universities in the United States awarding 2 or 4 year degrees.  Survey those schools and I would wager that the vast majority do not provide free room board as part of the job.


>>>>


----------



## Samson

NYcarbineer said:


> A teacher has 4 to 6 years, at least, of higher education/training and is working in the profession they were trained in.
> 
> What's the average level of education in this country.  What percent of Americans are working at the level they were trained (as opposed to being underemployed)?
> 
> Clearly teachers are underpaid.



A. There are many teachers that have "emergency certificates" that are not "working in the profession that they were trained in [sic: dangling preposition]"

Teaching Certificate


> What is an emergency teaching certificate?
> Because of critical teacher shortages, some states extend temporary and emergency licenses that bypass state licensing requirements. These often are granted to individuals to teach in high-need subject areas, such as mathematics, science, special education, or bilingual education, or for high-need geographic areas such as urban schools.


----------



## WorldWatcher

Samson said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> A teacher has 4 to 6 years, at least, of higher education/training and is working in the profession they were trained in.
> 
> What's the average level of education in this country.  What percent of Americans are working at the level they were trained (as opposed to being underemployed)?
> 
> Clearly teachers are underpaid.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A. There are many teachers that have "emergency certificates" that are not "working in the profession that they were trained in [sic: dangling preposition]"
> 
> Teaching Certificate
> 
> 
> 
> What is an emergency teaching certificate?
> Because of critical teacher shortages, some states extend temporary and emergency licenses that bypass state licensing requirements. These often are granted to individuals to teach in high-need subject areas, such as mathematics, science, special education, or bilingual education, or for high-need geographic areas such as urban schools.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...



Sam,

In Virginia there are no "emergency" teaching certificates issued by VDOE, there are provisional licenses, but those are not available to just have a warm body in the classroom.



I work in the Human Resources department for a school system.  We get people all the time (especially with the downturn of the economy) that think they can walk in to HR and we will hire them as a teacher.  Sorry, doesn't work that way.  If you don't have the background in the field, you can't be hired.

For elementary and Special Education, "experiential learning" does not count at all.  You have to go back to school and take the early education courses.  Once you have completed some of the course, THEN you can qualify for a provisional license and you have 3-years to complete the rest of the course work (in total 18 Semester Hours in specific areas), pass the Praxis test for Elementary, and pass the Virginia Communication and Literacy Assessment.

For secondary education, those teachers focus on a specialty curriculum area.  This is where those who have degrees in a specific field typically can gain employment in education.  For example an Engineer typically has a enough math courses, when combined with "experiential learning" to qualify for a provisional teaching certificate.  Based on their backgrounds which have direct applicability to the subject they teach, they can get a job, however they also have a 3-year limit to meet full qualification requirements which includes completing required education coursework, passing the Specialty Praxis for that specialty area, and passing the VCLA.



Specifics of course may vary in other states.

>>>>


----------



## Trajan

as of 2009 there are 7.8 million millionaires in the US not counting primary residence....we have what? 330 million people here? you're right, thats to many.....


----------



## Samson

WorldWatcher said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> 
> A teacher has 4 to 6 years, at least, of higher education/training and is working in the profession they were trained in.
> 
> What's the average level of education in this country.  What percent of Americans are working at the level they were trained (as opposed to being underemployed)?
> 
> Clearly teachers are underpaid.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A. There are many teachers that have "emergency certificates" that are not "working in the profession that they were trained in [sic: dangling preposition]"
> 
> Teaching Certificate
> 
> 
> 
> What is an emergency teaching certificate?
> Because of critical teacher shortages, some states extend temporary and emergency licenses that bypass state licensing requirements. These often are granted to individuals to teach in high-need subject areas, such as mathematics, science, special education, or bilingual education, or for high-need geographic areas such as urban schools.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Sam,
> 
> In Virginia there are no "emergency" teaching certificates issued by VDOE, there are provisional licenses, but those are not available to just have a warm body in the classroom.
> 
> 
> 
> I work in the Human Resources department for a school system.  We get people all the time (especially with the downturn of the economy) that think they can walk in to HR and we will hire them as a teacher.  Sorry, doesn't work that way.  If you don't have the background in the field, you can't be hired.
> 
> For elementary and Special Education, "experiential learning" does not count at all.  You have to go back to school and take the early education courses.  Once you have completed some of the course, THEN you can qualify for a provisional license and you have 3-years to complete the rest of the course work (in total 18 Semester Hours in specific areas), pass the Praxis test for Elementary, and pass the Virginia Communication and Literacy Assessment.
> 
> For secondary education, those teachers focus on a specialty curriculum area.  This is where those who have degrees in a specific field typically can gain employment in education.  For example an Engineer typically has a enough math courses, when combined with "experiential learning" to qualify for a provisional teaching certificate.  Based on their backgrounds which have direct applicability to the subject they teach, they can get a job, however they also have a 3-year limit to meet full qualification requirements which includes completing required education coursework, passing the Specialty Praxis for that specialty area, and passing the VCLA.
> 
> 
> 
> Specifics of course may vary in other states.
> 
> >>>>
Click to expand...


Indeed, the quote I posted refered to some states: All I know are TX, CA, PA, but there may be more.

But, my point was, that the broad statement that every teacher has 4-6 years training in their "profession" has many exceptions. However, you have supported the arguement that teachers salaries are NOT too low: "We get people _all the time_ (especially with the downturn of the economy) that think they can walk in to HR and we will hire them as a teacher."


----------



## WorldWatcher

Samson said:


> Indeed, the quote I posted refered to some states: All I know are TX, CA, PA, but there may be more.
> 
> But, my point was, that the broad statement that every teacher has 4-6 years training in their "profession" has many exceptions. However, you have supported the arguement that teachers salaries are NOT too low: "We get people _all the time_ (especially with the downturn of the economy) that think they can walk in to HR and we will hire them as a teacher."




My post wasn't made to counter the level of teacher pay.  It was simply to expound upon the concept of "emergency" teachers and to point out, at least in Virginia, we have to turn away people because they don't meet the requirements to be placed in the classroom.  It wouldn't make a difference if we were paying teachers $10,000 a year or $100,000 a year - if you don't have the professional training in the area you are looking to teaching, you don't go in the classroom.  At least in divisions around here.


>>>>


----------



## code1211

rdean said:


> Free By 50: Teacher Pay vs Median Incomes by State
> 
> What made me start this thread was because on the news, after Gov. Christie talked about New Jersey, they reported that New Jersey had 212 thousand millionaires state wide and 102 thousand teachers.
> 
> The average teacher's salary in New Jersey is $58,156.00 while the median state income is $64,070.00.  That means teachers make 91% of the median state income.
> 
> Here is a list of "starting salaries" by state:
> 
> Teacher Salaries By State | Average Salaries For Teachers | Beginning Salaries For Teachers | Teacher Raises | TeacherPortal.com
> 
> Starting salary in Wisconsin is a measly $25,000.  I had no idea it was that low.  25 grand.
> 
> When right wingers point out a teaching job that pays $100,000, it's because they have a Masters and have been teaching for 20 years or they live in an area where the standard of living is that high.
> 
> Right wingers chasing teachers out of their areas might have a "silver lining".  Liberals areas will have the pick of the best.  The best jobs will go to liberals and right wingers can fight with illegal immigrants over who gets to pick the biggest apples and the plumpest strawberries.




I would assume that the point that you are trying to make is that teachers salaries are grossly low compared to the states averages.

If this is your thesis, then, as usual, this Liberal talking point can be supported only by lying about the comparisson.  

Your study is comparing the salry of 1 teacher to income of a household.  The 15% greater income in each household represents the incomes in most cases of at least two people compared to the income of one teacher.

Why not compare apples to apples in an honest way rather than a deliberately disingenuous deception?

Teacher Pay vs Median Incomes by State | Free By 50

<snip>

[edit March 7, 2011 : This is not an apples to apples comparison.  I want to point out that I am using the mean teacher salary versus the median household income. 

<snip>


----------



## KissMy

If government employees were underpaid then there would not be such a huge demand for cushy government jobs.

WSJ: We've Become a Nation of Takers, Not Makers


> If you want to understand better why so many statesfrom New York to Wisconsin to Californiaare teetering on the brink of bankruptcy, consider this depressing statistic: *Today in America there are nearly twice as many people working for the government (22.5 million) than in all of manufacturing (11.5 million).* This is an almost exact reversal of the situation in 1960, when there were 15 million workers in manufacturing and 8.7 million collecting a paycheck from the government.
> 
> It gets worse. More Americans work for the government than work in construction, farming, fishing, forestry, manufacturing, mining and utilities combined. We have moved decisively from a nation of makers to a nation of takers. Nearly half of the $2.2 trillion cost of state and local governments is the $1 trillion-a-year tab for pay and benefits of state and local employees. Is it any wonder that so many states and cities cannot pay their bills?...
> 
> Don't expect a reversal of this trend anytime soon. *"Surveys of college graduates are finding that more and more of our top minds want to work for the government"*...
> 
> The employment trends described here are explained in part by hugely beneficial productivity improvements in such traditional industries as farming, manufacturing, financial services and telecommunications. These produce far more output per worker than in the past. The typical farmer, for example, is today at least three times more productive than in 1950.
> 
> Where are the productivity gains in government? Consider a core function of state and local governments: schools. *Over the period 1970-2005, school spending per pupil, adjusted for inflation, doubled, while standardized achievement test scores were flat. Over roughly that same time period, public-school employment doubled per student, according to a study by researchers at the University of Washington. That is what economists call negative productivity.*
> 
> But education is an industry where we measure performance backwards: We gauge school performance not by outputs, but by inputs. If quality falls, we say we didn't pay teachers enough or we need smaller class sizes or newer schools. If education had undergone the same productivity revolution that manufacturing has, we would have half as many educators, smaller school budgets, and higher graduation rates and test scores.
> 
> The same is true of almost all other government services. *Mass transit spends more and more every year and yet a much smaller share of Americans use trains and buses today than in past decades.* One way that private companies spur productivity is by firing underperforming employees and rewarding excellence. In government employment, tenure for teachers and near lifetime employment for other civil servants shields workers from this basic system of reward and punishment. It is a system that breeds mediocrity, which is what we've gotten.
> 
> Most reasonable steps to restrain public-sector employment costs are smothered by the unions. Study after study has shown that states and cities could shave 20% to 40% off the cost of many servicesfire fighting, public transportation, garbage collection, administrative functions, even prison operationsthrough competitive contracting to private providers. But unions have blocked many of those efforts. *Public employees maintain that they are underpaid relative to equally qualified private-sector workers, yet they are deathly afraid of competitive bidding for government services.*


----------



## Samson

WorldWatcher said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, the quote I posted refered to some states: All I know are TX, CA, PA, but there may be more.
> 
> But, my point was, that the broad statement that every teacher has 4-6 years training in their "profession" has many exceptions. However, you have supported the arguement that teachers salaries are NOT too low: "We get people _all the time_ (especially with the downturn of the economy) that think they can walk in to HR and we will hire them as a teacher."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My post wasn't made to counter the level of teacher pay.  It was simply to expound upon the concept of "emergency" teachers and to point out, at least in Virginia, we have to turn away people because they don't meet the requirements to be placed in the classroom.  It wouldn't make a difference if we were paying teachers $10,000 a year or $100,000 a year - if you don't have the professional training in the area you are looking to teaching, you don't go in the classroom.  At least in divisions around here.
> 
> 
> >>>>
Click to expand...


No, it WOULD, and DOES make a difference if you were paying $10,000/yr or $100,000/yr.

The fact that you get applicants demonstrates that someone wants the pay. You would get fewer applicants at $10k/yr. You would get more applicants at $100k/yr, regardless of their qualification. The fact you get applicants at whatever starting salary your offering, demonstrates some level of competitiveness (I would guess that many have 4 year degress).

The fact that VA will not let a Rocket Scientist teach 8th grade science for $40,000/yr, and therefore has a shortage of teachers, doesn't mean they pay teachers too little to attract qualified "professionals."

It demonstrates, unsurprisingly, that academians value themselves much more highly based on their academic acheivements, rather than practical knowledge, than any other "professional."


----------



## WorldWatcher

Samson said:


> WorldWatcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, the quote I posted refered to some states: All I know are TX, CA, PA, but there may be more.
> 
> But, my point was, that the broad statement that every teacher has 4-6 years training in their "profession" has many exceptions. However, you have supported the arguement that teachers salaries are NOT too low: "We get people _all the time_ (especially with the downturn of the economy) that think they can walk in to HR and we will hire them as a teacher."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My post wasn't made to counter the level of teacher pay.  It was simply to expound upon the concept of "emergency" teachers and to point out, at least in Virginia, we have to turn away people because they don't meet the requirements to be placed in the classroom.  It wouldn't make a difference if we were paying teachers $10,000 a year or $100,000 a year - if you don't have the professional training in the area you are looking to teaching, you don't go in the classroom.  At least in divisions around here.
> 
> 
> >>>>
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, it WOULD, and DOES make a difference if you were paying $10,000/yr or $100,000/yr.
> 
> The fact that you get applicants demonstrates that someone wants the pay. You would get fewer applicants at $10k/yr. You would get more applicants at $100k/yr, regardless of their qualification. The fact you get applicants at whatever starting salary your offering, demonstrates some level of competitiveness (I would guess that many have 4 year degress).
Click to expand...


The number of applicants isn't the issue.  Supply and demand is based on the number of qualified applicants.  Doesn't matter of we have 100 applicants for a single teaching position if none of them can be hired.  When qualification requirements are set by state law, the the supply and demand equation is based on qualified candidates.

While having a Bachelor's is a minimum requirement for the job, having a 4-year degree does not mean you are qualified for the job.  As I pointed out earlier.

We pay bus attendants to ride along on transportation runs, mostly to provide assistance services to disabled students.  They make about $10,000 a year for close to minimum wage.  They could apply to be teachers also, but we couldn't hire them either, but they can apply.  

See it's not just about who we hire today, it's also about making the career attractive long term.  If the profession is not attractive, with the likelihood of attracting high school students into the college prep programs, without those then there are less people that can be hired under state law, resulting in a smaller pool of applicants, that results in schools competing for a more limited pool.  Supply goes down, with a constant demand - then school systems raise salaries.


BTW - Again, I've not said teachers are underpaid.



Samson said:


> The fact that VA will not let a Rocket Scientist teach 8th grade science for $40,000/yr, and therefore has a shortage of teachers, doesn't mean they pay teachers too little to attract qualified "professionals."



Where did you get the idea that I said VA would not allow a Rocket Scientist to teach 8th Grade Science?

Depending on a transcript review, and a determination that the Rocket Scientist would be good in the classroom of course, we'd hire a Rocket Scientist in a heartbeat.  As I previously said about Engineers, they typically have met the core subject requirements (in this case science) as part of their previous college experience to qualify for a provisional license which would be good for 3-years.  During that time they would have certain college classes and testing requirements to meet.


>>>>


----------



## Samson

WorldWatcher said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WorldWatcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> My post wasn't made to counter the level of teacher pay.  It was simply to expound upon the concept of "emergency" teachers and to point out, at least in Virginia, we have to turn away people because they don't meet the requirements to be placed in the classroom.  It wouldn't make a difference if we were paying teachers $10,000 a year or $100,000 a year - if you don't have the professional training in the area you are looking to teaching, you don't go in the classroom.  At least in divisions around here.
> 
> 
> >>>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, it WOULD, and DOES make a difference if you were paying $10,000/yr or $100,000/yr.
> 
> The fact that you get applicants demonstrates that someone wants the pay. You would get fewer applicants at $10k/yr. You would get more applicants at $100k/yr, regardless of their qualification. The fact you get applicants at whatever starting salary your offering, demonstrates some level of competitiveness (I would guess that many have 4 year degress).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The number of applicants isn't the issue.  Supply and demand is based on the number of qualified applicants.  Doesn't matter of we have 100 applicants for a single teaching position if none of them can be hired.  When qualification requirements are set by state law, the the supply and demand equation is based on qualified candidates.
> 
> While having a Bachelor's is a minimum requirement for the job, having a 4-year degree does not mean you are qualified for the job.  As I pointed out earlier.
> 
> We pay bus attendants to ride along on transportation runs, mostly to provide assistance services to disabled students.  They make about $10,000 a year for close to minimum wage.  They could apply to be teachers also, but we couldn't hire them either, but they can apply.
> 
> See it's not just about who we hire today, it's also about making the career attractive long term.  If the profession is not attractive, with the likelihood of attracting high school students into the college prep programs, without those then there are less people that can be hired under state law, resulting in a smaller pool of applicants, that results in schools competing for a more limited pool.  Supply goes down, with a constant demand - then school systems raise salaries.
> 
> 
> BTW - Again, I've not said teachers are underpaid.
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> The fact that VA will not let a Rocket Scientist teach 8th grade science for $40,000/yr, and therefore has a shortage of teachers, doesn't mean they pay teachers too little to attract qualified "professionals."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Where did you get the idea that I said VA would not allow a Rocket Scientist to teach 8th Grade Science?
> 
> Depending on a transcript review, and a determination that the Rocket Scientist would be good in the classroom of course, we'd hire a Rocket Scientist in a heartbeat.  As I previously said about Engineers, they typically have met the core subject requirements (in this case science) as part of their previous college experience to qualify for a provisional license which would be good for 3-years.  During that time they would have certain college classes and testing requirements to meet.
> 
> 
> >>>>
Click to expand...


"Depending on a transcript review, and a determination that the Rocket Scientist would be good in the classroom of course, we'd hire a Rocket Scientist in a heartbeat."



Could you be a little more duplicious? 

Also, if engineers are applying to be teachers, then teachers are not underpaid.

Engineers are.

As far as your comment: "it's not just about who we hire today, it's also about making the career attractive long term," what exactly is "it." 

Is it pay? Certainly not. Because teachers' pay raises typically become a smaller percentage the longer they remain in teaching. Whatever "it" is, there is nothing that makes teaching an attractive long term career except external factors for which HR has absolutely no control.


----------



## asterism

Samson said:


> WorldWatcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, the quote I posted refered to some states: All I know are TX, CA, PA, but there may be more.
> 
> But, my point was, that the broad statement that every teacher has 4-6 years training in their "profession" has many exceptions. However, you have supported the arguement that teachers salaries are NOT too low: "We get people _all the time_ (especially with the downturn of the economy) that think they can walk in to HR and we will hire them as a teacher."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My post wasn't made to counter the level of teacher pay.  It was simply to expound upon the concept of "emergency" teachers and to point out, at least in Virginia, we have to turn away people because they don't meet the requirements to be placed in the classroom.  It wouldn't make a difference if we were paying teachers $10,000 a year or $100,000 a year - if you don't have the professional training in the area you are looking to teaching, you don't go in the classroom.  At least in divisions around here.
> 
> 
> >>>>
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, it WOULD, and DOES make a difference if you were paying $10,000/yr or $100,000/yr.
> 
> The fact that you get applicants demonstrates that someone wants the pay. You would get fewer applicants at $10k/yr. You would get more applicants at $100k/yr, regardless of their qualification. The fact you get applicants at whatever starting salary your offering, demonstrates some level of competitiveness (I would guess that many have 4 year degress).
> 
> The fact that VA will not let a Rocket Scientist teach 8th grade science for $40,000/yr, and therefore has a shortage of teachers, doesn't mean they pay teachers too little to attract qualified "professionals."
> 
> It demonstrates, unsurprisingly, that academians value themselves much more highly based on their academic acheivements, rather than practical knowledge, than any other "professional."
Click to expand...


Not even academic achievements.  My niece's Trigonometry teacher never took Trigonometry.  But what were they to do with the Soccer Coach?  Oh he's got a degree in Education, so I guess that means he can teach - something.  He can't teach Trig.  Dude barely remembers Geometry.


----------



## asterism

WorldWatcher said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WorldWatcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> My post wasn't made to counter the level of teacher pay.  It was simply to expound upon the concept of "emergency" teachers and to point out, at least in Virginia, we have to turn away people because they don't meet the requirements to be placed in the classroom.  It wouldn't make a difference if we were paying teachers $10,000 a year or $100,000 a year - if you don't have the professional training in the area you are looking to teaching, you don't go in the classroom.  At least in divisions around here.
> 
> 
> >>>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, it WOULD, and DOES make a difference if you were paying $10,000/yr or $100,000/yr.
> 
> The fact that you get applicants demonstrates that someone wants the pay. You would get fewer applicants at $10k/yr. You would get more applicants at $100k/yr, regardless of their qualification. The fact you get applicants at whatever starting salary your offering, demonstrates some level of competitiveness (I would guess that many have 4 year degress).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The number of applicants isn't the issue.  Supply and demand is based on the number of qualified applicants.  Doesn't matter of we have 100 applicants for a single teaching position if none of them can be hired.  When qualification requirements are set by state law, the the supply and demand equation is based on qualified candidates.
> 
> While having a Bachelor's is a minimum requirement for the job, having a 4-year degree does not mean you are qualified for the job.  As I pointed out earlier.
> 
> We pay bus attendants to ride along on transportation runs, mostly to provide assistance services to disabled students.  They make about $10,000 a year for close to minimum wage.  They could apply to be teachers also, but we couldn't hire them either, but they can apply.
> 
> See it's not just about who we hire today, it's also about making the career attractive long term.  If the profession is not attractive, with the likelihood of attracting high school students into the college prep programs, without those then there are less people that can be hired under state law, resulting in a smaller pool of applicants, that results in schools competing for a more limited pool.  Supply goes down, with a constant demand - then school systems raise salaries.
> 
> 
> BTW - Again, I've not said teachers are underpaid.
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> The fact that VA will not let a Rocket Scientist teach 8th grade science for $40,000/yr, and therefore has a shortage of teachers, doesn't mean they pay teachers too little to attract qualified "professionals."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Where did you get the idea that I said VA would not allow a Rocket Scientist to teach 8th Grade Science?
> 
> Depending on a transcript review, and a determination that the Rocket Scientist would be good in the classroom of course, we'd hire a Rocket Scientist in a heartbeat.  As I previously said about Engineers, they typically have met the core subject requirements (in this case science) as part of their previous college experience to qualify for a provisional license which would be good for 3-years.  During that time they would have certain college classes and testing requirements to meet.
> 
> 
> >>>>
Click to expand...


Teaching is a calling, not a profession.  As such, professionals should be called and encouraged to contribute.  Most of our town's Lawyers, Doctors, and other businesspeople would love to teach at different stages of their lives.  As it turns out, the School Board has deemed almost all of them unqualified to teach the future Doctors, Lawyers, and businesspeople.  Some guy with a degree in Leisure Sports Education?  He's somehow the interim Math teacher that can't balance his own checkbook.


----------



## editec

I am constantly amused by the way the teacher hating fascists ignore the facts.

Their minds are made up and by GOD, don't confuse them with facts.


----------



## California Girl

editec said:


> I am constantly amused by the way the teacher hating fascists ignore the facts.
> 
> Their minds are made up and by GOD, don't confuse them with facts.



I am constantly amused by the misuse of the word 'hate'. Not marching lock step with liberal thinking is not 'hate'. Assuming you have left school, you really should have learned that much.


----------



## WorldWatcher

Samson said:


> WorldWatcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, it WOULD, and DOES make a difference if you were paying $10,000/yr or $100,000/yr.
> 
> The fact that you get applicants demonstrates that someone wants the pay. You would get fewer applicants at $10k/yr. You would get more applicants at $100k/yr, regardless of their qualification. The fact you get applicants at whatever starting salary your offering, demonstrates some level of competitiveness (I would guess that many have 4 year degress).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The number of applicants isn't the issue.  Supply and demand is based on the number of qualified applicants.  Doesn't matter of we have 100 applicants for a single teaching position if none of them can be hired.  When qualification requirements are set by state law, the the supply and demand equation is based on qualified candidates.
> 
> While having a Bachelor's is a minimum requirement for the job, having a 4-year degree does not mean you are qualified for the job.  As I pointed out earlier.
> 
> We pay bus attendants to ride along on transportation runs, mostly to provide assistance services to disabled students.  They make about $10,000 a year for close to minimum wage.  They could apply to be teachers also, but we couldn't hire them either, but they can apply.
> 
> See it's not just about who we hire today, it's also about making the career attractive long term.  If the profession is not attractive, with the likelihood of attracting high school students into the college prep programs, without those then there are less people that can be hired under state law, resulting in a smaller pool of applicants, that results in schools competing for a more limited pool.  Supply goes down, with a constant demand - then school systems raise salaries.
> 
> 
> BTW - Again, I've not said teachers are underpaid.
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> The fact that VA will not let a Rocket Scientist teach 8th grade science for $40,000/yr, and therefore has a shortage of teachers, doesn't mean they pay teachers too little to attract qualified "professionals."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Where did you get the idea that I said VA would not allow a Rocket Scientist to teach 8th Grade Science?
> 
> Depending on a transcript review, and a determination that the Rocket Scientist would be good in the classroom of course, we'd hire a Rocket Scientist in a heartbeat.  As I previously said about Engineers, they typically have met the core subject requirements (in this case science) as part of their previous college experience to qualify for a provisional license which would be good for 3-years.  During that time they would have certain college classes and testing requirements to meet.
> 
> 
> >>>>
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "Depending on a transcript review, and a determination that the Rocket Scientist would be good in the classroom of course, we'd hire a Rocket Scientist in a heartbeat."
> 
> 
> 
> Could you be a little more duplicious?
Click to expand...



Not trying to be duplicitous at all.  Background checks, degree confirmation, and personal interviews - do you not feel employers should verify information provided by someone seeking a job?




Samson said:


> Also, if engineers are applying to be teachers, then teachers are not underpaid.
> 
> Engineers are.




Ahhhhhhhhh - I see what you up to.  You are attempting to imply that because I said we could hire an Engineer (not because of the "title" Engineer, but because of their college course load) that I meant that Engineers were inundating us with applications.  Not true.  We have a pretty decent sized school district.  Over the last 10 years we've hired, IIRC, at the low end 150 teachers over a summer, at the high end it was 255.  There are about 8 districts in commuting distance and there is some turnover their if we don't stay competitive, there are always some retirees, and we live in a high military area so there is some turnover as spouses receive orders to rotate out of area.

So let's go with the low end.  10 years, 150 per year - that's about 1500 teacher hirings sine I've been working there.  Over those 10-years I could probably count the number of Engineer applicants on one hand.  Of the three I can remember off the top of my head, 2 abandoned their classroom mid-year supposedly to go back to engineering for more money.  The one that has worked out long-term is acutally a retired researcher from NASA (NASA Langly is in our area), he's worked out great.  But he's retired and only wants to work part-time.




Samson said:


> As far as your comment: "it's not just about who we hire today, it's also about making the career attractive long term," what exactly is "it."
> 
> Is it pay? Certainly not. Because teachers' pay raises typically become a smaller percentage the longer they remain in teaching. Whatever "it" is, there is nothing that makes teaching an attractive long term career except external factors for which HR has absolutely no control.



The road you're going down is the balance between intrinsic and extrinisc values placed on the job.  Intrinsic being internal factors - the sense of accomplishment, how the employee sees society valuing their work, personal satisfaction in being a part of the teaching profession.  External factors then tend to be salary to pay the bills, health care to care of your family, access to high quality professional development, etc...

There is no one "it".  There is a totality of the factors the are weighed. 


>>>>


----------



## asterism

editec said:


> I am constantly amused by the way the teacher hating fascists ignore the facts.
> 
> Their minds are made up and by GOD, don't confuse them with facts.



Who made up your mind?


----------



## Bern80

editec said:


> I am constantly amused by the way the teacher hating fascists ignore the facts.
> 
> Their minds are made up and by GOD, don't confuse them with facts.



You mean like the fact that they complain about being paid less than everyone else, but can't seem to grasp that it might have something to do with the FACT that they work less than everyone else. That fact?


----------



## Si modo

And, teachers generally don't work in the summer months.  Gross up their salaries for a full year.


----------



## Samson

editec said:


> I am constantly amused by the way the teacher hating fascists ignore the facts.
> 
> Their minds are made up and by GOD, don't confuse them with facts.



Thanks for playing.

Since you're so full of "facts" perhaps you can explain why an opinion that teachers are adequately paid is the opinion of a "teacher hating fascist?"

Or, perhaps you haven't considered the fact that many appreciate teachers AND BELIEVE THEY ARE ADEQUATELY COMPENSATED.

You're typical of all bleeding-hearts: When confronted with any intellectual issue, turn it into an emotional one.


----------



## Samson

si modo said:


> and, teachers generally don't work in the summer months.  Gross up their salaries for a full year.


 4/3

x 1.3


----------



## Samson

WorldWatcher said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WorldWatcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> The number of applicants isn't the issue.  Supply and demand is based on the number of qualified applicants.  Doesn't matter of we have 100 applicants for a single teaching position if none of them can be hired.  When qualification requirements are set by state law, the the supply and demand equation is based on qualified candidates.
> 
> While having a Bachelor's is a minimum requirement for the job, having a 4-year degree does not mean you are qualified for the job.  As I pointed out earlier.
> 
> We pay bus attendants to ride along on transportation runs, mostly to provide assistance services to disabled students.  They make about $10,000 a year for close to minimum wage.  They could apply to be teachers also, but we couldn't hire them either, but they can apply.
> 
> See it's not just about who we hire today, it's also about making the career attractive long term.  If the profession is not attractive, with the likelihood of attracting high school students into the college prep programs, without those then there are less people that can be hired under state law, resulting in a smaller pool of applicants, that results in schools competing for a more limited pool.  Supply goes down, with a constant demand - then school systems raise salaries.
> 
> 
> BTW - Again, I've not said teachers are underpaid.
> 
> 
> 
> Where did you get the idea that I said VA would not allow a Rocket Scientist to teach 8th Grade Science?
> 
> Depending on a transcript review, and a determination that the Rocket Scientist would be good in the classroom of course, we'd hire a Rocket Scientist in a heartbeat.  As I previously said about Engineers, they typically have met the core subject requirements (in this case science) as part of their previous college experience to qualify for a provisional license which would be good for 3-years.  During that time they would have certain college classes and testing requirements to meet.
> 
> 
> >>>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Depending on a transcript review, and a determination that the Rocket Scientist would be good in the classroom of course, we'd hire a Rocket Scientist in a heartbeat."
> 
> 
> 
> Could you be a little more duplicious?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Not trying to be duplicitous at all.  Background checks, degree confirmation, and personal interviews - do you not feel employers should verify information provided by someone seeking a job?
Click to expand...


Perhaps the phrase, "we'd hire a Rocket Scientist in a heartbeat," was just a tad euphamistic.

Better would be: "we'd hire a Rocket scientist after scrutinizing him as much as we would any recent graduate from State U College of Education?" But this wouldn't be quite true, would it? _The fact_ is that you'd scrutize him/her MORE than any other candidates with teaching certificates/licensure, *and that is my point.* You'd force him/her to jump through all sorts of absurd hoops: paying for additional classes like "Classroom Management" and "Adolescent Emotions" and "Society and The School."

The fact that you would get ANY Engineers to apply, much less being "inundated" is astonishing in light of the barriers to entry public schools have built to obstruct teaching candidates. Pay is actually the least painful of these.


----------



## editec

asterism said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> asterism said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's the definition, true. What's the significance?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't understand the question.
> 
> Significance of *the median?*
> 
> Here's why it is a useful way of looking at a set of data.
> 
> The median describes a statistic...it is designed to help people make sense of large sets of data.
> 
> _That_ is its signficance.
> 
> If you make the median income, half the workers make more than you do, and half make less.
> 
> Seriously, this is confusing you?
> 
> Let's take a set of stats.
> 
> 4, 6, 10, 11, 12, 15, 2000
> 
> *What is the average of that data set? 2058/7 = 294*
> 
> *What is the median of that data set? 11*
> 
> 
> See the difference?
> 
> That 2000 number wildly throws off the _average _thus it might mislead you if you used it to try to understand that data set.
> 
> Of course, this (and all)statistical method actually makes a lot more sense when the data set isn't just a few numbers (like my example) but thousands of data points.
> 
> There ARE times when finding an average gives you a clearer picture of what's happening than the median does.
> 
> 
> Average median and mode are three ways of looking at large data sets.
> 
> Each has its place dependeing on the way the data is, and each has its shortcomings, too.
> 
> MODE is the most frequent number found in a data set, for example.
> 
> If you don't understand at least the basics of statistical analysis, then you really cannot understand MOST of what people debate in social science issues.
> 
> What's more if you don't understand at least some statistical methodology, you are set up to be MISLEAD by those who do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your points are quite valid, especially regarding the basics and the propensity to be misled.
> 
> So, if income were distributed like this like this 10 years ago:
> 
> 1 million, 100K, 75K, 50K, 40K, 40K, 10K, 10K, 5K, 5k, 2K, 1K, 1K
> 
> And this presently:
> 
> 10 million, 100K, 75K, 50K, 40K, 40K, 10K, 10K, 5K, 5k, 2K, 1K, 1K
> 
> What's the significance of the median?
Click to expand...

 
An _excellent_ example of why and how statistics can be misleading and why we need different ways of looking at the same data, too.

In the avove example the thing that WOULD be significant wouldn't be the median average, and even the average could be very misleading, too.

But what would stand out is the _standard deviation from the mean of the data points.._


Statistical analysis is but a TOOL to understanding large data sets. 

What they can tell you is_ still subject to your interpretations_ of what they mean _as applied to the issue under study._


----------



## editec

WorldWatcher said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> Many private school educators get ROOM AND BOARD, in addition to salary and benefits.
> And every private school educator I knew (and I knew a lot of them) get health care, contrary to what some here have claimed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Could you support the ROOM AND BOARD comment with any kind of data? I'm not saying it doesn't happen early for the odd boarding school, but I would posit that it is pretty rare in the general private school teaching population. To me, many is more than a few, so many could be 6 or 7 people. However when compared as a percentage of total private school teachers I'd bet the percentage is very, VERY small.
> 
> 
> 2. My sister was a private school teacher for 5-years and the pay was about 1/2 of what public school teachers in the area made and no benefits (no paid vacation, no health care, no retirement). She loved the kids and smaller class sized but eventually had to go public to pay the bills, student loans, and be able to prepare for retirement.
> 
> 
> 
> >>>>
Click to expand...

 
No I cannot provide that information, and I see your point as it regards small private (probably religously based) non-boarding schools, too.

I was comparing my public school experience to my private boarding school teaching experience.

The public school paid more, but I had to pay room and board. I lived therefore in a slum in Boston

In the private school, my salary was lower, but then too I could live on campus and have essantially no bills.

In that case I lived with an ocean view in a masion, complete with four meals a day and every cent I made was DISPOSABLE income.

How does one compare those?

Well...what would the room and board have cost me if I'd been paying rent and utilites and food and so forth?

Much much More than I made as public school teacher, I suspect.  I was living in a mansion on the north shore in one of the wealthiest towns in America!

And in both cases I have pretty good HC benefits and so forth.

So comparing private schools to public schools really demands that one look at more than JUST salaries, I think.

See my point?


----------



## WorldWatcher

editec said:


> WorldWatcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> Many private school educators get ROOM AND BOARD, in addition to salary and benefits.
> And every private school educator I knew (and I knew a lot of them) get health care, contrary to what some here have claimed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Could you support the ROOM AND BOARD comment with any kind of data? I'm not saying it doesn't happen early for the odd boarding school, but I would posit that it is pretty rare in the general private school teaching population. To me, many is more than a few, so many could be 6 or 7 people. However when compared as a percentage of total private school teachers I'd bet the percentage is very, VERY small.
> 
> 
> 2. My sister was a private school teacher for 5-years and the pay was about 1/2 of what public school teachers in the area made and no benefits (no paid vacation, no health care, no retirement). She loved the kids and smaller class sized but eventually had to go public to pay the bills, student loans, and be able to prepare for retirement.
> 
> 
> 
> >>>>
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No I cannot provide that information, and I see your point as it regards small private (probably religously based) non-boarding schools, too.
> 
> I was comparing my public school experience to my private boarding school teaching experience.
> 
> The public school paid more, but I had to pay room and board. I lived therefore in a slum in Boston
> 
> In the private school, my salary was lower, but then too I could live on campus and have essantially no bills.
> 
> In that case I lived with an ocean view in a masion, complete with four meals a day and every cent I made was DISPOSABLE income.
> 
> How does one compare those?
> 
> Well...what would the room and board have cost me if I'd been paying rent and utilites and food and so forth?
> 
> Much much More than I made as public school teacher, I suspect.  I was living in a mansion on the north shore in one of the wealthiest towns in America!
> 
> And in both cases I have pretty good HC benefits and so forth.
> 
> So comparing private schools to public schools really demands that one look at more than JUST salaries, I think.
> 
> See my point?
Click to expand...



I see your point very well.  Not trying to say there are no boarding schools that provide room and board.  My only comment was that in the regular world they are pretty rare.

My sister was a private school teacher at a religious school for about 6 years.  She loved the kid, loved the school - put finally reality set in.  Her pay was about 1/2 what public school teacher made and no benefits.  Finally the reality of needing to pay off student loans to furnish the education that qualified her for the job, the need for affordable health care, and the realization that eventually she would need income for retirement moved her out of the private school realm.


>>>>


----------



## WorldWatcher

Samson said:


> WorldWatcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> "Depending on a transcript review, and a determination that the Rocket Scientist would be good in the classroom of course, we'd hire a Rocket Scientist in a heartbeat."
> 
> 
> 
> Could you be a little more duplicious?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not trying to be duplicitous at all.  Background checks, degree confirmation, and personal interviews - do you not feel employers should verify information provided by someone seeking a job?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Perhaps the phrase, "we'd hire a Rocket Scientist in a heartbeat," was just a tad euphamistic.
Click to expand...



OK, I can accept that.




Samson said:


> Better would be: "we'd hire a Rocket scientist after scrutinizing him as much as we would any recent graduate from State U College of Education?" But this wouldn't be quite true, would it? _The fact_ is that you'd scrutize him/her MORE than any other candidates with teaching certificates/licensure, *and that is my point.* You'd force him/her to jump through all sorts of absurd hoops: paying for additional classes like "Classroom Management" and "Adolescent Emotions" and "Society and The School."




Actually we wouldn't force him/her to jump through any more hoops than anyone else.  As a matter of fact to start working the person would have to jump through LESS hoops then others.  The "others" would have already jumped through those hoops as part of their college teacher prep programs.  The individual wouldn't have to pay for any additional classes that other applicants had already taken.

*The point is* that they have to meet the same qualifications as other applicants, not more.  



Samson said:


> The fact that you would get ANY Engineers to apply, much less being "inundated" is astonishing in light of the barriers to entry public schools have built to obstruct teaching candidates. Pay is actually the least painful of these.



Again I've never said we were "inundated" with Engineers or Scientists as applicants, they are actually very, VERY rarely apply.  I may have said that we were "inundated" with applicants, especially during down economic times, who were not qualified to teach.  Being inundated with applicants is very different then being inundated with qualified applicants.

One thing I told my kids a few years ago, "your Mom and I will help you through college, but two things:  One, you will contribute to your own education, and two the degree field must be employable"  If they wanted a degree in sociology or Early European Literature, fine have at it, but you are on your own.  Our son is working on an IT degree and my daughter is full ride scholarship as a dual Math/Chemistry major with employment guaranteed after school.


>>>>


----------



## Korean_Teacher

Both of you two are arguing back and forth on mute points on my behalf.  I can see where you both are coming as being on both sides of the fence.  I have always wanted to help others ever since I was in school.  Because of that I went pre-med at CALU, and graduated with honors.  Once I finished my undergrad degree I started to volunteer with kids and have since pursued a teaching career.  So, when 1 of you argues that there are not enough educated people out there to teach our society and children, I would have to disagree.  People do not chose education because of the career outlook (just look at what is goign on in Wisconsin, Ohio, Indiana, or Pennsylvania) or the pay (starting teacher where I live is $32k a year).  People chose to become teachers because they love the difference they make on the lives of adolescents.  When I hear people argue that teachers 'Make so much, but only work 9 months out of the year', that also makes me realize how little they think we put into everything.  Yes I do only clock in 9 months out of the year, but during that 9 months I put about 60 hours in a week.  That also doesn't include everything a teacher does over the summer.  While some may think that teachers get 3 months off a year, I would just have to argue that if you took our place for a year you would see how much time and effort we put into that.


----------



## asterism

Korean_Teacher said:


> Both of you two are arguing back and forth on mute points on my behalf.  I can see where you both are coming as being on both sides of the fence.  I have always wanted to help others ever since I was in school.  Because of that I went pre-med at CALU, and graduated with honors.  Once I finished my undergrad degree I started to volunteer with kids and have since pursued a teaching career.  So, when 1 of you argues that there are not enough educated people out there to teach our society and children, I would have to disagree.  People do not chose education because of the career outlook (just look at what is goign on in Wisconsin, Ohio, Indiana, or Pennsylvania) or the pay (starting teacher where I live is $32k a year).  People chose to become teachers because they love the difference they make on the lives of adolescents.  When I hear people argue that teachers 'Make so much, but only work 9 months out of the year', that also makes me realize how little they think we put into everything.  Yes I do only clock in 9 months out of the year, but during that 9 months I put about 60 hours in a week.  That also doesn't include everything a teacher does over the summer.  While some may think that teachers get 3 months off a year, I would just have to argue that if you took our place for a year you would see how much time and effort we put into that.



That's great and I commend you.  For you it seems Teaching is actually a calling and a vocation.  I hope one day to be able to afford a second vocation of my own (my first was military service).  I'd like to bring desalination equipment to poverty stricken areas.  As it turns out there is no union I can join, no national association to lobby on my behalf just to help me do that.  So I'm going to fund my activities myself.  In the meantime I get hear from people where were called to serve, but want a pension.

I'm a bit perplexed, please forgive me.


----------



## Samson

asterism said:


> Korean_Teacher said:
> 
> 
> 
> Both of you two are arguing back and forth on mute points on my behalf.  I can see where you both are coming as being on both sides of the fence.  I have always wanted to help others ever since I was in school.  Because of that I went pre-med at CALU, and graduated with honors.  Once I finished my undergrad degree I started to volunteer with kids and have since pursued a teaching career.  So, when 1 of you argues that there are not enough educated people out there to teach our society and children, I would have to disagree.  People do not chose education because of the career outlook (just look at what is goign on in Wisconsin, Ohio, Indiana, or Pennsylvania) or the pay (starting teacher where I live is $32k a year).  People chose to become teachers because they love the difference they make on the lives of adolescents.  When I hear people argue that teachers 'Make so much, but only work 9 months out of the year', that also makes me realize how little they think we put into everything.  Yes I do only clock in 9 months out of the year, but during that 9 months I put about 60 hours in a week.  That also doesn't include everything a teacher does over the summer.  While some may think that teachers get 3 months off a year, I would just have to argue that if you took our place for a year you would see how much time and effort we put into that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's great and I commend you.  For you it seems Teaching is actually a calling and a vocation.  I hope one day to be able to afford a second vocation of my own (my first was military service).  I'd like to bring desalination equipment to poverty stricken areas.  As it turns out there is no union I can join, no national association to lobby on my behalf just to help me do that.  So I'm going to fund my activities myself.  In the meantime I get hear from people where were called to serve, but want a pension.
> 
> I'm a bit perplexed, please forgive me.
Click to expand...


I'd like to give the world a Coke, and teach it to sing in perfect harmony.



Maybe I should apply for a US Recovery Bill Grant.


----------



## PLYMCO_PILGRIM

rdean said:


> Free By 50: Teacher Pay vs Median Incomes by State
> 
> What made me start this thread was because on the news, after Gov. Christie talked about New Jersey, they reported that New Jersey had 212 thousand millionaires state wide and 102 thousand teachers.
> 
> The average teacher's salary in New Jersey is $58,156.00 while the median state income is $64,070.00.  That means teachers make 91% of the median state income.
> 
> Here is a list of "starting salaries" by state:
> 
> Teacher Salaries By State | Average Salaries For Teachers | Beginning Salaries For Teachers | Teacher Raises | TeacherPortal.com
> 
> Starting salary in Wisconsin is a measly $25,000.  I had no idea it was that low.  25 grand.
> 
> When right wingers point out a teaching job that pays $100,000, it's because they have a Masters and have been teaching for 20 years or they live in an area where the standard of living is that high.
> 
> Right wingers chasing teachers out of their areas might have a "silver lining".  Liberals areas will have the pick of the best.  The best jobs will go to liberals and right wingers can fight with illegal immigrants over who gets to pick the biggest apples and the plumpest strawberries.



Damn dude teachers get hooked up.   A 3 month vacatoin in the summer and over 50k/year in compensation....sign me up what an awesome paying job!

Serioiusly are you really trying to say that making over 50k/year for working less than 9 months of the year, while having a full benefits pacakage, is bad compensation?  For Real?   Don't forget many teachers do the job because they love it, another bonus.


I think its fine that teachers make that much money, sure its more than many americans make, especially if you figure in the vacation time, but their job is important so I dont think the pay needs to be cut....they just need to contribute 50% to their insurance and retirement benefits like everyone else to help the financial burden on every state govt in the union.


----------



## Samson

PLYMCO_PILGRIM said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> 
> Free By 50: Teacher Pay vs Median Incomes by State
> 
> What made me start this thread was because on the news, after Gov. Christie talked about New Jersey, they reported that New Jersey had 212 thousand millionaires state wide and 102 thousand teachers.
> 
> The average teacher's salary in New Jersey is $58,156.00 while the median state income is $64,070.00.  That means teachers make 91% of the median state income.
> 
> Here is a list of "starting salaries" by state:
> 
> Teacher Salaries By State | Average Salaries For Teachers | Beginning Salaries For Teachers | Teacher Raises | TeacherPortal.com
> 
> Starting salary in Wisconsin is a measly $25,000.  I had no idea it was that low.  25 grand.
> 
> When right wingers point out a teaching job that pays $100,000, it's because they have a Masters and have been teaching for 20 years or they live in an area where the standard of living is that high.
> 
> Right wingers chasing teachers out of their areas might have a "silver lining".  Liberals areas will have the pick of the best.  The best jobs will go to liberals and right wingers can fight with illegal immigrants over who gets to pick the biggest apples and the plumpest strawberries.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Damn dude teachers get hooked up.   A 3 month vacatoin in the summer and over 50k/year in compensation....sign me up what an awesome paying job!
> 
> Serioiusly are you really trying to say that making over 50k/year for working less than 9 months of the year, while having a full benefits pacakage, is bad compensation?  For Real?   Don't forget many teachers do the job because they love it, another bonus.
> 
> 
> I think its fine that teachers make that much money, sure its more than many americans make, especially if you figure in the vacation time, but their job is important so I dont think the pay needs to be cut....they just need to contribute 50% to their insurance and retirement benefits like everyone else to help the financial burden on every state govt in the union.
Click to expand...


Another bonus is they can take ANOTHER JOB during the summer.


----------



## FireFly

Area Superintendents Defend Salaries from Governor Andrew Cuomos proposal to cap public school superintendents salaries to between $125,000 and $175,000

Overview of superintendent salaries in Patch's Hudson Valley coverage area:
Local School District Superintendent Salary

Ardsley $244,000 
Bedford $251,000 
Brewster $226,964 
Blind Brook *$250,920 
Bronxville $279,212 
Chappaqua $265,801 
Dobbs Ferry $232,532 
Eastchester $238,855 
Harrison $287,074 
Hastings $228,000 
Irvington $256,965 
Katonah-Lewisboro $274,275 
Lakeland $250,000 
Mamaroneck $255,000 
Nanuet $237,317 
New City/Clarkstown $225,000 
New Rochelle $263,250 
Nyack $237,038 
Pearl River *$289,228 
Peekskill *$212,226 
Pelham $240,000 
Rye $253,623 
Rye Neck $286,575 
Tarrytown $274,120  
Tuckahoe $160,000 
White Plains $214,200 
Yorktown $240,240


----------



## midcan5

Let's be honest here folks, Americans do not respect Teachers, teaching, or education. They only respect overpaid sport's persons who often have no education, and who talk the most stupid nonsense as Kobe demonstrated again this week. Americans worship MONEY and SPORT followed by Corporations who are just ahead of the nonsense on TV. 

"*Not surprisingly, in a land where literacy and numeracy are considered virtues, teachers are revered. Teenagers ranked teaching at the top of their list of favorite professions in a recent survey. Far more graduates of upper schools in Finland apply for admission to teacher-training institutes than are accepted.* The overwhelming majority of those who eventually enter the classroom as a teacher make it a lifelong career, even though they are paid no more than their counterparts in other European countries." 

"*At the heart of Finland's stellar reputation is a philosophy completely alien to America. The country of 5.3 million in an area twice the size of Missouri considers education an end in itself - not a means to an end.* It's a deeply rooted value that is reflected in the Ministry of Education and in all 432 municipalities. In sharp contrast, Americans view education as a stepping stone to better-paying jobs or to impress others. The distinction explains why we are obsessed with marquee names, and how we structure, operate and fund schools." Lessons From Finland: The Way to Education Excellence | CommonDreams.org


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