# Enemies of America



## Indofred (Apr 2, 2013)

Split from another thread.

Can anyone name an enemy of America where America didn't create that enemy through interference in that country or regional interference?

I've tried and I can't find one.

Anyone game to try?


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## Ringel05 (Apr 2, 2013)

Can anyone name an enemy of (fill in your favorite major world power here)__________ where (said major world power) didn't create that enemy through interference in that country or regional interference throughout the history of mankind, no matter how well intentioned.......... or painted as such by one faction within said country or region?

I've tried and I can't find one.

Anyone game to try?


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## tjvh (Apr 2, 2013)

Indofred said:


> Split from another thread.
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> Can anyone name an enemy of America where America didn't create that enemy through interference in that country or regional interference?
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Can anyone think of one Islamic country that borders a non Islamic country that didn't have a conflict with that non Islamic country? 
Anyone? And one example (to answer the OP) is America fighting its way out from under England's tyranny.


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## Indofred (Apr 2, 2013)

tjvh said:


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Translated.
I can't name any so I'll try to sound clever.

Fail.


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## hortysir (Apr 2, 2013)

Ringel05 said:


> Can anyone name an enemy of (fill in your favorite major world power here)__________ where (said major world power) didn't create that enemy through interference in that country or regional interference throughout the history of mankind, no matter how well intentioned.......... or painted as such by one faction within said country or region?
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> I've tried and I can't find one.
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> Anyone game to try?



QFT



B-b-but it's America's fault.
We're the only nation in history to make enemies


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## Dugdale_Jukes (Apr 2, 2013)

Ringel05 said:


> Can anyone name an enemy of (fill in your favorite major world power here)__________ where (said major world power) didn't create that enemy through interference in that country or regional interference throughout the history of mankind, no matter how well intentioned.......... or painted as such by one faction within said country or region?
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> I've tried and I can't find one.
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> Anyone game to try?



How did Poland provoke Germany in the 1930s? What did Russia do to provoke Germany in the 1930s? What did the US do to Japan to provoke Pearl Harbor (besides sell them more scrap steel than all of Europe bought in those years)? What did Afghanistan do to provoke Russia in the 1970s? 

What did Greece do to provoke Persia back in the day? What did any European region do to provoke Rome?

War mongers are what they are. My guess is not many of my generation - especially graying former yuppies who opposed the draft and later evolved into morally degenerate scum who supported invading Iraq and Afghanistan - would have admitted in the 1970s that one day they would be herded (like the human cattle they are) by corporatist neocons into supporting the US invading sovereign nations in Asia Minor for... 

For what? 

That has never been clear.


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## Ringel05 (Apr 2, 2013)

Dugdale_Jukes said:


> Ringel05 said:
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> > Can anyone name an enemy of (fill in your favorite major world power here)__________ where (said major world power) didn't create that enemy through interference in that country or regional interference throughout the history of mankind, no matter how well intentioned.......... or painted as such by one faction within said country or region?
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Either didn't read it all or read into what I posted...... Oh well.


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## TheOldSchool (Apr 2, 2013)

Well everyone hates the Swiss


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## Dugdale_Jukes (Apr 2, 2013)

Ringel05 said:


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With all due respect, I read your post and understood what the post said. If you meant something different post that. No region in today's Germany or England antagonized Rome. Rome invaded. Period. No one in Poland antagonized Germany in the late 1930s. Germany invaded. Period. And so on through my examples in re war mongering major powers.  

There was no need to bring up Alexander or Genghis Kahn, two major powers leaders whose primary motives were conquest, conquest and more conquest.

One wishes Junebug's reason for invading Iraq was conquest instead of showing his mama he could penetrate deeper and stay longer than daddy-o.


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## Dante (Apr 2, 2013)

Indofred said:


> Split from another thread.
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> Can anyone name an enemy of America where America didn't create that enemy through interference in that country or regional interference?
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Your premise is that all of Americas enemies were never her enemies until she _interfered_?


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## Dante (Apr 2, 2013)

hortysir said:


> Ringel05 said:
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> > Can anyone name an enemy of (fill in your favorite major world power here)__________ where (said major world power) didn't create that enemy through interference in that country or regional interference throughout the history of mankind, no matter how well intentioned.......... or painted as such by one faction within said country or region?
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If America had you for a defense lawyer, she'd be singi8ng an aria at the gallows


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## Dante (Apr 2, 2013)

TheOldSchool said:


> Well everyone hates the Swiss



They have non profit health care insurance, those dirty bastards!


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## Ringel05 (Apr 2, 2013)

Dugdale_Jukes said:


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Uuuummmm....... Many in the Middle East see us as invaders, in many countries where we stayed after WWII some eventually viewed us as "occupiers", prior to that some country's citizens, obviously not all, like in the Philippines saw us as conquerors.  Many in countries not friendly to us propagate the imperial capitalist myth to this day. 
Since when was Poland a major world power?  They may have had delusions of grandeur but they were never a world power.  Russia didn't become a world power until after WWII though it was well known that ultimately, between Germany and the Soviet Union, one would invade the other, they were traditional enemies and the non-aggression treaty was nothing more than a move of convenience for both.  Not all of Rome's territory's were originally derived from conquest, some started out as alliances.  
Our antagonism towards England that lead up to the American Revolution was partially our fault, we started the French and Indian wars, the real first world war.  It drained the English crown coffers and they felt we should share in the cost.  We had been self sufficient for so long that it was met with complete resentment by many but not all.
I could go on for pages, quoting books, articles and spending hours finding links but I really don't feel like it. 
Nuances,  the nuances are the key.


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## eots (Apr 2, 2013)

TheOldSchool said:


> Well everyone hates the Swiss



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yClTu-Va9do]wampas i hate switzerland - YouTube[/ame]


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## Indofred (Apr 3, 2013)

Dugdale_Jukes said:


> What did the US do to Japan to provoke Pearl Harbor (besides sell them more scrap steel than all of Europe bought in those years)?.



Just as a note, the attack on the American occupied island of Hawaii was done from ships running on American fuel and with aircraft running on American fuel.
It was the cutting off of these fuel supplies that forced Japan's hand into the Pearl attacks.
Not that they wouldn't have done it sooner or later anyway but it is interesting to note, no one has found any enemy country yet, at least not without going back all that way.


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## Indofred (Apr 3, 2013)

Dante said:


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Name on that doesn't fit my premise.


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## Sallow (Apr 3, 2013)

Dugdale_Jukes said:


> Ringel05 said:
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> > Can anyone name an enemy of (fill in your favorite major world power here)__________ where (said major world power) didn't create that enemy through interference in that country or regional interference throughout the history of mankind, no matter how well intentioned.......... or painted as such by one faction within said country or region?
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You're kidding right?

Admiral Perry ring a bell?


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## Sallow (Apr 3, 2013)

Ringel05 said:


> Can anyone name an enemy of (fill in your favorite major world power here)__________ where (said major world power) didn't create that enemy through interference in that country or regional interference throughout the history of mankind, no matter how well intentioned.......... or painted as such by one faction within said country or region?
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> I've tried and I can't find one.
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> Anyone game to try?



That's sort of true.

And it puts a large part of the notion of "American Exceptionalism" to bed.

Because like every world power..we've behaved just as badly.


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## Indofred (Apr 3, 2013)

Sallow said:


> Ringel05 said:
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We British were just as bad but we're starting to admit how daft we were.
In the long run, it was quite handy for me as my job would never had existed if the British of old weren't such gits.

America has yet to even consider its mistakes and, worst still, hides them from its population.
All those 'enemies' but none that America didn't actually make its enemies by its own stupidity and/or greed.


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## editec (Apr 3, 2013)

Ringel05 said:


> Can anyone name an enemy of (fill in your favorite major world power here)__________ where (said major world power) didn't create that enemy through interference in that country or regional interference throughout the history of mankind, no matter how well intentioned.......... or painted as such by one faction within said country or region?
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> I've tried and I can't find one.
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> Anyone game to try?


_*
BINGO!*_

Empires are like that.


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## Ringel05 (Apr 3, 2013)

Sallow said:


> Ringel05 said:
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Yeah, I was saying that also, hence the word "or".


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## koshergrl (Apr 3, 2013)

Indofred said:


> Split from another thread.
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> Can anyone name an enemy of America where America didn't create that enemy through interference in that country or regional interference?
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Bill Ayers and Barrack Obama.


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## Katzndogz (Apr 3, 2013)

koshergrl said:


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Ooooh good one!


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## Katzndogz (Apr 3, 2013)

It is nice to notice that the liberals members of this board have no problem with North Korea and China kicking obama's ass all over the pacific.   We will deserve it after all.  And so we will but for other reasons.  It took a long time for a lib to actually agree with me.

Pull down your pants barackoboy, it's about to get an asian boot right up the crack.


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## koshergrl (Apr 3, 2013)

Does anyone remember when Phil Donahue had a hysterical laughing fit over the very idea that China could be considered a threat?

And he's one of their stars. These people just aren't very smart.


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## Dugdale_Jukes (Apr 3, 2013)

Ringel05 said:


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No. 

Nuances are not the key. Facts are the key. 

The fact is that a majority of people around the globe aware the US invaded Iraq see the US as invaders. Possibly because the US did invade Iraq. That their governments were degenerate enough to join criminal American leadership doesn't change the facts. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_the_Iraq_War#Opposition_throughout_the_world

Easy to agree Poland wasn't a major power. Germany, the invading nation, was, which is dead on to your point. Rome invaded without provocation, dead on to your point. Japan attacked without provocation. And so on. 

There was no justification at all for invading Iraq; to the contrary. Something the filthy little cocksucker's old man understood was that Hussein was a free lid on the Iran pressure cooker. There is no reasonable expectation halfwit America buys that; they still think Reagan was a conservative, for Christ's sake. 

However, people who understand global power dynamics understand that the Boy Bush - the draft dodging chickenhawk cocksucker Pap Bush prevailed on friends to invest in and employ until he got the boy a government job in Tejas - fucked it up.


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## hortysir (Apr 3, 2013)

Dante said:


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Not defending.
Just pointing out how the OP suggests that any conflict our country has been involved in was our own fault.

Yea, as a nation, we've done some stupid shit.
What country hasn't?

Still don't feel there's a better option on this planet.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Apr 3, 2013)

Indofred said:


> Split from another thread.
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> Can anyone name an enemy of America where America didn't create that enemy through interference in that country or regional interference?
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progressives are the greatest threat to America.
Democrat Republican obama 
They are doing far more damage from within than any outside source could ever do.


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## Dante (Apr 3, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Indofred said:
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## Dante (Apr 3, 2013)

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Indofred said:


> Split from another thread.
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> Can anyone name an enemy of America _where America didn't create that enemy through interference in that country or regional interference_?
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Dante said:


> Your premise is that all of Americas enemies were never her enemies until she _interfered_?





Indofred said:


> Name on that doesn't fit my premise.


There are distinct differences between _interference in a country_ and _regional interference_. You evidently strung them together thinking it made for a better argument, when in reality it weakens your argument in many ways. 



> *interference: Noun:*
> _The action of interfering or the process of being interfered with: "interference in the country's internal affairs"_.



Regional_ interference_ would be in the eye of the beholder, and therein lays a deep chasm of a flaw in your premise, so let us put that one aside and tackle the easy one first: _interference in a country_: Nations have become the enemy of America without America having first interfered in those nation's internal affairs. If you do not acknowledge this, there is no sense in me continuing to engage you after this post

Now we tackle _regional interference_: Regional_ interference_ is in the eye of the beholder. America like most every nation on Earth has had interests in regional affairs close to home and far away. It is how the world works. America's interests in regional affairs world wide can and have run into conflict with the interests of other nations. How nations including America, choose to deal with these conflicts is where we can sort out who first chose viewing another nation as an enemy

As with politics, Dante has always said he views most people as opponents and enemies, even when some people would attempt to make an enemy of Dante.


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## American_Jihad (Apr 4, 2013)

Dugdale_Jukes said:


> Ringel05 said:
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> > Can anyone name an enemy of (fill in your favorite major world power here)__________ where (said major world power) didn't create that enemy through interference in that country or regional interference throughout the history of mankind, no matter how well intentioned.......... or painted as such by one faction within said country or region?
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What did America do to provoke Benghazi...





Flame Zone...​


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## bigrebnc1775 (Apr 4, 2013)

Dante said:


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Kiss my ass bitch. You are a stupid fuck why don't you shut the fuck up?


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## Indofred (Apr 4, 2013)

hortysir said:


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Since WWII, yes.
No country has seriously threatened the US, invaded it or even attacked it but you've invaded or interfered in loads.
Yes, I know, you're going to quote Afghanistan and the towers but no Afghans were proven to be involved in that one.


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## Indofred (Apr 4, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


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So you can't name one either.

It's starting to look like no one can name an enemy of America that America didn't start on first yet you look a lot like you're going to attack North Korea, a nation that has NEVER attacked the United states and only shouts about you because you've built up thousands of troops on its border.


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## Indofred (Apr 4, 2013)

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A long, well thought out load of rubbish, devoid of an answer to the question.
You, as everyone else, can't name an enemy that you didn't create yourselves.


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## Indofred (Apr 4, 2013)

American_Jihad said:


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And Benghazi is a country that attacked America?
Fail.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Apr 4, 2013)

Indofred said:


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I did, progressives


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## Indofred (Apr 4, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


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I looked all over wiki but failed to find a country called, progressives.


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## Indofred (Apr 4, 2013)

So we have a conclusion. 
There are no enemies of America that America didn't make.

This suggests you guys need a change of foreign policy (unless you enjoy seeing your young men come home in body bags).






Your foreign policy is killing your troops, just as surely as if your government shot them itself.


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## Dante (Apr 4, 2013)

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So what we have here is a troll post devoid of reason, rationality, and intellectual honesty. The OP refuses to acknowledge the reality of an _ invalid argument _.

on top of that the OP appears to have revisited the OP: "Can anyone name an enemy of America *since WWII*, _where America didn't create that enemy through interference in that country or regional interference_?"

Invalid argument = fail 

A more intellectually honest argument could be "Can anyone name an enemy of America since WWII, _where America didn't create that enemy through some sort of regional interference_?"


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## Ringel05 (Apr 4, 2013)

Dugdale_Jukes said:


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I looked and again I saw nothing in my post that claimed justification for anything.  Simply a presentation of facts and presumptions (perspective) that are/have been used to validate the OPs premise while applying those same facts and perspectives to all major world powers throughout history.
Personally I could care less about your hatred for the Bushes like I could care less about the wing nuts hatred of Obama so try to stay on topic.  Such is life.


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## Dante (Apr 4, 2013)

poor enemies ran out of gas


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## bigrebnc1775 (Apr 4, 2013)

Indofred said:


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I said progressives are the greatest threat they are more dangerous than any outside country.


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## Indofred (Apr 5, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


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But I asked for COUNTRIES, not political ideals within America.

No one has managed to name one, thus, I believe I'm correct and America has created all its modern enemies.


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## editec (Apr 5, 2013)

> No one has managed to name one, thus, I believe I'm correct and America has created all its modern enemies.



The state of affairs in the world mostly involves market and resource economics. THAT the root cause of most wars.

Oh there's always some political or religious nonsense attached to the narrative to convince clueless people they need to fight for their nation, but generally every war in modern times has as its basic cause some ECONOMIC consideration.


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## Indofred (Apr 5, 2013)

editec said:


> > No one has managed to name one, thus, I believe I'm correct and America has created all its modern enemies.
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I would tend to agree.
Pre WWII, the American arms industry was at a low point but there has always been a need for arms since.
Of course, when enemies disappeared, new reasons to buy arms needed to be invented.
This involved killing millions but what's that when compared to keeping arms manufacturers in large houses, nice cars and making sure they can afford as many prostitutes as their tongues can handle?

They'll happily lie to get a war started and are covered by corrupt politicians who are paid off to shut up and make sure all the evidence is well buried. 

This is mass murder on a monumental scale but no one ever gets the chop for it.


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## High_Gravity (Apr 5, 2013)

Fred do you hate America?


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## Ringel05 (Apr 5, 2013)

editec said:


> > No one has managed to name one, thus, I believe I'm correct and America has created all its modern enemies.
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Not just modern times.  If one studies the history of each expansion and, or war and boils it down to the root cause it's always economic (resource) driven.


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## Indofred (Apr 5, 2013)

High_Gravity said:


> Fred do you hate America?



No.
Nor do I hate Americans, but your foreign policy stinks.


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## High_Gravity (Apr 5, 2013)

Indofred said:


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Fair enough.


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## Ringel05 (Apr 5, 2013)

Indofred said:


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To some degree yes but you're assessment is to simplistic.  There are too many variables to claim one nation created *all* it's enemies.  This is not to say that said nation didn't have a hand in it but there are always two sides to every coin.  Those who perceived us as enemies to their political system, culture, economic system, sphere of influence (whether we were or not) helped propagate the division.  In most cases the blame can be equally shared.


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## Indofred (Apr 5, 2013)

Ringel05 said:


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That (My red bold) suggests America may be a victim of someone's perception but I argue it's always actual interference, not a perceived threat.
Given no one has managed to name an enemy that was not created by America, I believe I may well be correct.


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## Ringel05 (Apr 5, 2013)

Indofred said:


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That's called cherry picking, taking out of context.  You can believe that America is the only one at fault, the reality is all sides share in the fault to some degree or another and as you should know, perception is everything, thus most responsible for all sides views.  
We can go into a historical dissertation on every aspect of this subject if you want but we'll probably be here, on this thread 24/7 for the next two months. 
As for your cherry picking, interference from who's perspective?  Radical Islam would see it as such but there are just as many in those regions who view radical Islam in the same light.  What about their perspective?  So far our major mistake of recent times was Iraq which gave radical Islam the propaganda tool to say, "see, we told you so.  They want to destroy your way of life and destroy Islam", leading to some of the current views of America by other groups and some nations.
You need to do some historical research, not Wikipedia, real research and tell me why America became the enemy of China, the Soviet Union, N. Korea.


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## editec (Apr 5, 2013)

Indofred said:


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I basically AGREE with you but STILL I FIND YOUR POV ANNOYING.

Want to know why?

Because you focused this obvious truism ONLY ON AMERICA.

This sad fact is true for_ EVERY COUNTRY_ ON EARTH.


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## hortysir (Apr 5, 2013)

Indofred said:


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Clinton and Kerry as our most recent SoS

No wonder


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## Toddsterpatriot (Apr 5, 2013)

Indofred said:


> Split from another thread.
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Why don't you list all of America's enemies, and then we can discuss why they're enemies?


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## freedombecki (Apr 5, 2013)

Indofred said:


> Split from another thread.
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 We decided to stay a neutral nation in WWII. We traded with both sides of the conflict. The Axis powers took that as interference since it supplied their "enemies," so they went after us for doing what other neutral countries did.

The last straw was them killing thousands of Americans at Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941, four years after Japan invaded China, and a year and a half after Hitler started his military occupancy of countries in Europe.

As a commander in Japan was said to note, it was a little unwise to wake the sleeping giant.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Apr 5, 2013)

Indofred said:


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You can do more damage to a country from within than an outside source could ever do.

I say again Progressives are the greatest threat.


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## Indofred (Apr 5, 2013)

editec said:


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The thread is about America as that country has more enemies than any other.
Basically, I was thinking about the Korean conflict but this expanded into looking at all enemies of America.
In no case could I find an enemy that America didn't make for itself.

It may well be true of other countries but, in my opinion, American foreign policy has started more wars and killed more people than any other country in history, including colonial era England.


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## Indofred (Apr 5, 2013)

Ringel05 said:


> That's called cherry picking, taking out of context.  You can believe that America is the only one at fault, the reality is all sides share in the fault to some degree or another and as you should know, perception is everything, thus most responsible for all sides views.
> We can go into a historical dissertation on every aspect of this subject if you want but we'll probably be here, on this thread 24/7 for the next two months.
> As for your cherry picking, interference from who's perspective?  Radical Islam would see it as such but there are just as many in those regions who view radical Islam in the same light.  What about their perspective?  So far our major mistake of recent times was Iraq which gave radical Islam the propaganda tool to say, "see, we told you so.  They want to destroy your way of life and destroy Islam", leading to some of the current views of America by other groups and some nations.
> You need to do some historical research, not Wikipedia, real research and tell me why America became the enemy of China, the Soviet Union, N. Korea.



Cherry picking? No, just reacting to an inaccurate statement.
You suggested, perception may be a cause of some enemies but I argue, actual interference is the cause.
Of course, I can't argue against your point regarding Muslim extremists using attacks on Iraq/maybe Iran as propaganda but that's a minority in several countries, not a government of one that goes on to murder by the thousand as a result of its claims.
America has attacked a whole host of countries, not just Muslim countries so Islam is a moot point in the context of the thread; more so when you realise the thread stemmed from a thread about North Korea, not a Muslim majority country last time I looked.

The Soviet union is a dead duck now so a bit academic but China is alive and well.
We've seen a lot of anti Chinese (probably fake) news stories of late.
The South Korean computer hacks from a Chinese IP comes to mind but what actual military threat is China to the US?
You guys moaned when they commissioned an aircraft carrier, complaining of globalisation and possible attacks outside Chinese waters but exactly how many flattops does America have?
Back to N Korea. You guys supported the South Korean corrupt dictator and, more up to date, you guys started the new escalation by sending thousands of troops to the region.
Of course NK went ballistic, you landed a potential invasion force on the peninsular.

If Iran landed 40,000 troops with a mass of military hardware in Mexico at the invitation of the Mexican government, would you be happy?

Its not perception, its physical interference.


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## Dugdale_Jukes (Apr 6, 2013)

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Nothing leading to Pearl Harbor. The one who visited Japan in the 19th century can hardly be a direct cause of Pearl Harbor per the discussion.


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## Ringel05 (Apr 6, 2013)

Indofred said:


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No, you cherry picked because it was only one part of the answer and you chose it because you could attack it by making it appear to be my only response.  Your rambling concerning China, N Korea and S Korea shows nothing less than a complete lack of knowledge of real events and players, so can and will be dismissed out of hand.  Given the fact that you've proven to be completely (and most likely willfully) ignorant of the causes and players in world events, you've successfully managed to destroy your own premise as stated in the OP.  
Try again when you actually have facts, and an unbiased attitude, not state sponsored propaganda to play with.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Apr 6, 2013)

Indofred said:


> editec said:
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> > Indofred said:
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Yes, we heard your opinion. Why don't you answer my question?

*Why don't you list all of America's enemies, and then we can discuss why they're enemies*?


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## Indofred (Apr 6, 2013)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Indofred said:
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> > editec said:
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Because the thread is about America.
If you wish to start one about other countries, please feel free to do so.

As for the list, is there enough server space to cope with it?
I've a better idea, you post the name of an enemy country you think wasn't caused by America, and I tell you why they're an enemy.
I'm sure that'll be easier.


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## Indofred (Apr 6, 2013)

Ringel05 said:


> Indofred said:
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Again, I cherry picked because you attempted to make an invalid point with that statement - that makes it fair game.
If you think the Korean situation isn't the fault of America, please say why and I'll be happy to debate it.
I see no reasoned argument from you, just unsupported suggestions.
I say North Korea is an enemy because America interfered in the country with a massive military attack that was nothing to do with defending the US and a lot to do with political rubbish in that you were trying to stop communism.


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## Dugdale_Jukes (Apr 6, 2013)

Indofred said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
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While your premise is correct since 1941, the US did NOTHING to provoke either Germany or Japan. Before WWII there are dozens of instances in history of major powers invading others without provocation including Japan and German attacks on US.


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## Ringel05 (Apr 6, 2013)

Indofred said:


> Ringel05 said:
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> > Indofred said:
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So on the 25th of June, 1950 when N Korea invaded S Korea that was our fault....... It was our fault that we were allied with S Korea and came to their defense...... Since the cease fire of July 27th, 1953 the US having troops in S Korea to help defend the boarder is our fault....Due to the recent saber rattling and provocations of N Korea, our assurances to S Korea defense is our fault...... 
Oh yeah, S Korea's popularly elected President is a corrupt dictator......... and that we had "landed 40,000 troops" on N Korea's  border......... That's the most telling statement you've made so far. 
My point is completely valid but your contumacious, benighted fallacy won't allow you to accept the reality of the statement. 
You completely missed the reference to the Soviet Union and your original statement.... Not surprised.   
Again, when you choose to apply real world facts based on actual occurrences and not state sponsored propaganda spins we'll be able to have a real discussion.  Until then I find I am arguing with a La Fausse Monnaie.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Apr 6, 2013)

Indofred said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
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You're talking about countries that America has made into enemies, *so list them*.
I thought you wanted a thoughtful discussion?
Your list will be the start.
Or you can whine instead?


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## Indofred (Apr 7, 2013)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Indofred said:
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List them, are you kidding?
I sit down for hours to make a list with reason why they're against the US but you simply spout some crap in reply.

I have a far better idea.
You post a country that is anti America but for reasons not caused by American meddling.
I don't seriously expect you to be able to name one.
Any country with post WWII hate/distrust/anger towards America will do.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Apr 7, 2013)

Indofred said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
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*List them, are you kidding?*

Not kidding. If you want to have an intelligent discussion.

Or you could whine some more.

*I sit down for hours to make a list with reason why they're against the US *

You have to take that long? I thought the reasons were obvious? 
Just post the list, we'll all discuss the reasons.


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## Indofred (Apr 8, 2013)

Ringel05 said:


> So on the 25th of June, 1950 when N Korea invaded S Korea that was our fault....... It was our fault that we were allied with S Korea and came to their defense...... Since the cease fire of July 27th, 1953 the US having troops in S Korea to help defend the boarder is our fault....Due to the recent saber rattling and provocations of N Korea, our assurances to S Korea defense is our fault......
> Oh yeah, S Korea's popularly elected President is a corrupt dictator......... and that we had "landed 40,000 troops" on N Korea's  border......... That's the most telling statement you've made so far..



I love it when a poster has to lie/twist the truth and twist the angle in order to defend their point.
North Korea, whilst being run by a bunch of nasty little morons, is entirely right as far as its view of America is concerned.

The Soviets backed North Korea but withdrew their forces in '48.
America backed South Korea but kept forces in that country.

Syngman Rhee. total git and president of Korea was a nasty sod at best.
Have some history.

Syngman Rhee (president of South Korea) -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia



> After the war, since Rhee was the only Korean leader well known to Americans, he was returned to Korea ahead of the other members of the Provisional Government. He campaigned for a policy of immediate independence and unification of the country. He soon built up a mass political organization supported by strong-arm squads and a following among the police. With the assassination of the major moderate leaders, including Song Jin Woo and Chang Duk Soo, Rhee remained the most influential leader, and his new party won the elections in South Korea. In 1948 he became president of the Republic of Korea, a post to which he was reelected in 1952, 1956, and 1960.
> 
> As president, Rhee assumed dictatorial powers, tolerating little domestic opposition to his program. Rhee purged the National Assembly of members who opposed him and outlawed the opposition Progressive Party, whose leader, Cho Bong Am, was executed for treason. He controlled the appointment of mayors, village headmen, and chiefs of police. He even defied the United Nations (UN) during the Korean War (195053). Hoping that UN forces would continue to fight and eventually unite North and South Korea under one government, Rhee hindered the truce talks by ordering the release in June 1953 of some 25,000 anticommunist North Korean prisoners. (Under the agreed-upon truce settlement, these men were to have been repatriated to North Korea.) Stunned, the communists broke off the negotiations and renewed their attack, largely ignoring the UN forces and concentrating their fire on Rhees South Korean troops. Having made their point, the communists then resumed negotiations, and a truce settlement was speedily signed.
> 
> In spite of his authoritarian policies, Rhee failed to prevent the election of an opposition vice president, Chang My&#335;n, in 1956. Government claims that the March 1960 elections gave Rhee more than 90 percent of the popular vote (55 percent in 1956) provoked student-led demonstrations against election fraud, resulting in heavy casualties and demands for Rhees resignation. These demands were supported by the unanimous vote of the National Assembly and by the U.S. government. Rhee resigned on April 27, 1960, and went into exile in Hawaii.



That account fails to mention the Bodo League and Geochang massacres, where Rhee had thousands murdered in order to get rid of 'communists'.

Try this one.

SparkNotes: The Korean War (1950-1953): North Korea's Surprise Attack



> In 1949, Congress dragged its feet in considering a $150 million dollar aid bill to South Korea. Syngman Rhee had so often talked about invading North Korea that US leaders feared giving him too much in the way of weapons



So, in answer to your question, it wasn't America's fault directly but you did support an evil, a mass murdering dictator that made his wish to invade the North, very clear.

As for the latest spat, 

U.S. military buildup in S. Korea months in making



> WASHINGTON -- The Pentagon's deployment in the last week of its most advanced fighters, bombers and warships to counter North Korea's mounting threats has overshadowed its more gradual buildup of forces in the region.
> 
> Over the last year, the military has responded to the Obama administration's "pivot" to Asia as it withdraws troops from Afghanistan and its war in Iraq recedes into history. The rebalancing of forces addresses, in part, the rise of Chinese power in the region. Other changes were made with a clear focus on North Korea.



Oh look, America has been building up troops in South Korea for a good while.

However, this kicked it off.

War Games: South Korea, U.S. Begin Annual Military Drills As North Korea Makes New Threats



> SEOUL, South Korea  South Korea and the United States began annual military drills Monday despite North Korean threats to respond by voiding the armistice that ended the Korean War and launching a nuclear attack on the U.S.
> 
> After the start of the drills, South Korean officials said their northern counterparts didn't answer two calls on a hotline between the sides, apparently following through on an earlier vow to cut the communication channel because of the drills.



The latest problems are directly down to America troop build up in the region.
Frankly, whist I have no love for North Korea, they're right about the American government's want of a war.
You guys are doing all you can to provoke it and spouting a load of lies about it all being down to the North's naughty intentions.


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## editec (Apr 8, 2013)

Ringel05 said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> > > No one has managed to name one, thus, I believe I'm correct and America has created all its modern enemies.
> ...



yes I think you are mostly right about that ringel.

I limited my observation to only "modern" times because it is so much more obvious and easier to prove post 1500 or so.

But obviously, even though Rome (as abut one  example) had a very different economic model working for it, the motive for its continued expansion was CLEARLY economic.

Bread and circuses aren't cheap, ya know?


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## Indofred (Apr 8, 2013)

Indofred said:


> Split from another thread.
> 
> *Can anyone name an enemy of America where America didn't create that enemy through interference in that country or regional interference?*
> 
> ...



I have to admit, I didn't make clear I was looking at modern times, not pre WWII.



Toddsterpatriot said:


> *List them, are you kidding?*
> 
> Not kidding. If you want to have an intelligent discussion.
> 
> ...



I'm taking a wild guess you can't find an example as requested in my OP so you're blustering in a silly attempt to divert attention form the clear truth; America made its own enemies.

If you're confident of your ability to win a debate, post the name of an enemy country you think wasn't America's fault.

Perhaps we could start with Iran - are they mad on attacking America because they're evil mini Hitlers or did America do something to them first?

Name one or admit you can't.


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## editec (Apr 8, 2013)

Dugdale_Jukes said:


> Sallow said:
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I think there is a very direct historical correlation between Admiral Perry's GUNBOAT diplomacy and the Japanese decision to modernize that eventually lead to it becoming entangled in WWII.

EXTREMELY direct, actually.

You do realize Perry's visit was NOT welcomed, right?


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## Toddsterpatriot (Apr 8, 2013)

Indofred said:


> Indofred said:
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> > Split from another thread.
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You're talking about countries that America has made into enemies, so list them.
I thought you wanted a thoughtful discussion?
Your list will be the start.
Or you can whine instead?


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## Indofred (Apr 8, 2013)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Indofred said:
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I'll start with one.
Iran.

Tell me how America didn't cause that one.

If you manage, I'll add another but I seriously don't expect to have to.
Of course, you are simply blustering because you can't name a country as I requested in my OP.
You're making yourself look silly.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Apr 8, 2013)

Indofred said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
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So what did we do that made Iran our enemy?


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## editec (Apr 8, 2013)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Indofred said:
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OPur CIA funded overthrow of their government in 1952 for starters.,

Our support for the Shah of Iran and his SECRET POLICE (trained by General Normal Swartskorfs daddy, I note) in the years following our Coup d etat for another.


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## hortysir (Apr 8, 2013)

editec said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
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QFT


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## Indofred (Apr 8, 2013)

editec said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
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Cheers, saved me bothering.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Apr 8, 2013)

editec said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
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Great. Now imagine we didn't do those nasty things.
Does Khomeni love us and not call us the Great Satan?
Is Iran our friend? Or are they still our enemy?


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## Indofred (Apr 8, 2013)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> editec said:
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I think the point is, if you hadn't removed the elected government and bunged your dictator into power, there would probably never have been an Islamic revolution.

You lot caused it.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Apr 8, 2013)

Indofred said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
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Probably? Well, with proof like that, how can I argue?

I'll wait for your more comprehensive list, so we can continue the discussion.


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## g5000 (Apr 8, 2013)

Indofred said:


> Split from another thread.
> 
> Can anyone name an enemy of America where America didn't create that enemy through interference in that country or regional interference?
> 
> ...



Such a question is based on the presumption that all interference is bad, and that the country on the receiving end of American "interference" was not a bad actor. It presumes they were just some noble savages minding their own business, and then one day, out of the blue, big bad America comes along and rapes and pillages them. 

This kind of flawed reasoning would lead us to believe Japan was doing the Pacific region a favor by trying to take it over. The attack on Pearl Harbor was our fault for inflicting an oil embargo on Japan and interfering in their sacred duty. So forth, and so on.

Can anyone name an enemy of the police where the police didn't create that enemy through interference in that person's life?


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## Billo_Really (Apr 8, 2013)

g5000 said:


> Such a question is based on the presumption that all interference is bad, and that the country on the receiving end of American "interference" was not a bad actor. It presumes they were just some noble savages minding their own business, and then one day, out of the blue, big bad America comes along and rapes and pillages them.


That has nothing to do with it.  You make up any bullshit reason that justify's your interference, but that's all it is_*...........a bullshit reason!*_

As a member state of the UN, were are duty bound to honor the Charter which only allows interference within the borders of a sovereign nation if it is in self defense or with the approval of the UNSC.  Other than that, it's illegal.  Period.




g5000 said:


> This kind of flawed reasoning would lead us to believe Japan was doing the Pacific region a favor by trying to take it over. The attack on Pearl Harbor was our fault for inflicting an oil embargo on Japan and screwing up their sacred duty. So forth, and so on.


Japan definately gets the lions share of the blame, but fucking with their oil did play  a role in the whole event.  It doesn't justify what Japan did, it was just one of the factors that led to the attack.




g5000 said:


> Can anyone name an enemy of the police where the police didn't create that enemy through interference in that person's life?


What a dumbass statement!


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## editec (Apr 9, 2013)

freedombecki said:


> Indofred said:
> 
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> > Split from another thread.
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You have been tragically misinformed about the state of trade leading up to WWII.

Do yourself a favor, becki...start READING.


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## editec (Apr 9, 2013)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> editec said:
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I guess we'll never know, will we?

But if I had to guess, I'd guess that the Allyatoluhs wouldn't have any power if we hadn't replaced their SECULAR ELECTED government with SHAH back in 1952.

Now, if you are truly interested, do some research to see WHY we replaced the government in Iran with the a SHAH (A KING, dude.  We replaced an ELECTED GOVENMENT and put a KING in power!!!)

Here's a hint, though...Mossadeq


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## Two Thumbs (Apr 9, 2013)

Indofred said:


> Split from another thread.
> 
> Can anyone name an enemy of America where America didn't create that enemy through interference in that country or regional interference?
> 
> ...



Russia
China
Nazi germany
Great Britain for the Rev war
Italy
there's a few others, I'm sure, but I put no thought, just let the obvious come through.


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## Indofred (Apr 9, 2013)

Two Thumbs said:


> Indofred said:
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> > Split from another thread.
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And in modern times?


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## Two Thumbs (Apr 9, 2013)

Indofred said:


> Two Thumbs said:
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good lord

Russia
China
democrats


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## High_Gravity (Apr 9, 2013)

Sounds like Russia is totally fucked.


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## Two Thumbs (Apr 9, 2013)

mememe said:


> Two Thumbs said:
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> > Indofred said:
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your "facts" and history knowledge sucks.

WW2, Italy was an enemy.

And since you can't get that right....


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## High_Gravity (Apr 9, 2013)

Two Thumbs said:


> mememe said:
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mememe is too busy sucking commie cock to think straight.


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## Two Thumbs (Apr 9, 2013)

High_Gravity said:


> Two Thumbs said:
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seriously

Playing russia and china off as victims?

How fucking cherry picking ignorant do you have, and I mean HAVE to be?

It's like he's the dumbest kid in school and is proud of it b/c of all the effort he goes through to remain that damn dumb.


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## High_Gravity (Apr 9, 2013)

Two Thumbs said:


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mememe is a trained brainwashed left over commie student, its all she knows.


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## Two Thumbs (Apr 9, 2013)

High_Gravity said:


> Two Thumbs said:
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Just a passing knowledge of post WW2 where Stalin took off his shoe to pound his podium and scream "We will bury you!"  is enough to make things clear to grade school kids.


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## High_Gravity (Apr 9, 2013)

Two Thumbs said:


> High_Gravity said:
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According to mememe Stalin is the Russian Aberham Lincoln and everything bad said about him is Western propoganda.


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## Two Thumbs (Apr 9, 2013)

1 doesn't counter that we did not start it.

China has been bullying our allies for decades, we are showing a presence, IN RESPONSE to what they do

2, krist, Italy was an ally of germany

no, clearly you do not have it right


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## Dante (Apr 9, 2013)

Dante said:


> Dante said:
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> 
> > ...........
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## blackcherry (Apr 12, 2013)

mememe said:


> 1 the fact that US finances anti-Russian organisations within Russia as well as terrorists in N. Caucasus are not denied by US itself.


The only Terrorists in the north caucasus are the Russians themselves .
And it is poetic justice that the Mountain Freedom Fighters are giving them a heavy mauling .
We should see an influx of international freedom fighters push this insurrection into southern Russia next year .
Russia is in a lose/ lose situation and there will be no sympathy for it  from anybody  , once it is known how inhuman Russia has been in its dealings and attempted colonisation .


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## editec (Apr 12, 2013)

Two Thumbs said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> > Split from another thread.
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Honest to GOD you people really need to read some history. 



> The Allied intervention was a multi-national military expedition launched during the Russian Civil War in 1918. Its operations included forces from 14 nations[1] and were conducted over a vast territory. The initial stated goals were to help the Czechoslovak Legions, secure supplies of munitions and armaments in Russian ports, and re-establish the Eastern front. After winning the war in Europe, the Allied powers militarily backed the pro-Tsarist, anti-Bolshevik White forces in Russia.
> 
> *Foreign forces throughout Russia*
> 
> ...


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## Indofred (Apr 12, 2013)

This thread is tossing up some interesting points.
Notable countries, the main enemies on today's special menu are totally missing from the arguments, whist Russia, a country that has not attacked the united states, and China, another country that has not attacked the United States, are moving to centre ground.
Iran, a country that has never attacked the United states is being attacked with US propaganda and is ringed by US military bases and North Korea, a country that has never attacked the United states, is also ringed by American military bases.
Many of the arguments date back to 1945 in an attempt to deflect attention away from modern American interference.


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