# 62 Miles (City) Per Tank . . . of Compressed Air



## Synthaholic (Mar 1, 2011)

Awesome technology, totally clean, and you can fill it up from your garage!


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OneFlowAIR, MiniFlowAIR, CityFlowAIR, MultiFlowAIR, MDI Enterprises S.A. air compressed cars - sustainable and environmentally friendly cars.


The need of an extremely economic and ecological car  is currently an evidence. More and more cars makers seek this type of  vehicle. From these observations and with the advantages of its concept  of industrialization, MDI initiated the study of a *low cost, utility clean car*.

The  Industrial Concept and light construction technology of MDI allow to  reach this challenge. This type of cars is intended to drive in  overpopulated and particularly polluted cities.

It is the only vehicle on the market answering these characteristics:


Two minutes refill
Mono-energy compressed-air in city, dual-energy on road
Zero Pollution with mono-energy, 30g of CO2 with dual-energy
900Km road range with dual-energy, 100Km with mono-energy
Car body monoblock made in fiberglass and external chassis for safety
  This "Mehari" of modern times will be produced in two models:                         

A basic version from  3500
A more complete version from  5300
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*The Compressed Air Engines*
                     The  fruit of more than ten years of researches, MDIs mono-energy engines operate  on a* totally eco-friendly* basis using compressed air stored at high pressure. 
                     These engines are used on   vehicles designed for urban use, backup generators or industrial  tractors. They  are particularly tailored for applications where the  torque has an importance  and when an averagely moderate power is  needed.     
                     Together with the zero pollution   engines, some other versions having the same technical basis have also  been  created by MDI, they are known as the dual-energy engines. In the  case of  dual-energy engines, an energetic adjuvant (petrol, diesel,  oil, alcohol or  gas) is burned in an external continuous combustion  chamber. These dual-energy  engines have more range and the amount of  toxic gases released is very low.


*Less than two       Liters* per hundred Kilometers (at 90 Km/h for MiniFlowAIR)
Zero  NOx,
3 to 4000 times       less unburned HC compared to conventional engines.
3 times less C02       emissions in comparison to classic engines.
 
                       These engines will be fitted on  production generators. Regarding the  vehicles that will be operated  using these engines; there will be no pollution  when used in towns as  they would be operating on the compressed air mode  only. 
                      On the motorway these engines provide a good range  thanks to the  combustion of the liquid or gas adjuvant.
                     Finally based on this new  technology, MDI has imagined and developed a  « thermodynamic theory »  which will give rise to further improvement in  the years to come, thus  creating a real energetic revolution.  
                     All MDI engines  have an active chamber and are protected worldwide by patents. 
                      They can be used  for a wide range of applications, varying from 4 to 75 hp.
                      The engines will be  used in the following:  


Urban transporters
MDIs eco-friendly cars (OneFlowAIR,       MiniFlowAIR and CityFlowAIR)
MDIs urban       transporters (MultiFlowAIR)
Production and       backup generators
Tow tractors and       fork-lifts
Agricultural       tractors
Boat engine
Light aircraft       engine


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## Old Rocks (Mar 1, 2011)

Interesting ideas. And a solar roof installation could power the generator for home refills.


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## Provocateur (Mar 1, 2011)

LOL @ the pictures of the cars.  And I thought the Volt was goofy.


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## Synthaholic (Mar 1, 2011)

Provocateur said:


> LOL @ the pictures of the cars.  And I thought the Volt was goofy.


I advise you not to take any medicines.  Have you ever seen what that stuff looks like under a microscope?  Very goofy.


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## Oddball (Mar 1, 2011)




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## Synthaholic (Mar 1, 2011)

Old Rocks said:


> Interesting ideas. And a solar roof installation could power the generator for home refills.


A simple air compressor for $79 at Sears would be all you need.  And running it for 2 minutes each day will use hardly any energy at all.

A car like this could truly revolutionize the daily commute to work, leaving your regular car in the driveway, saving it wear and tear, saving so much money per person for gas.   I think the average person spends $2500 per year on gas.  I would love to stick an extra $2500 per year into an investment account instead of my gas tank.


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## Synthaholic (Mar 1, 2011)

Oddball said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAqPMJFaEdY


You are right on cue, Oddball:


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## Two Thumbs (Mar 1, 2011)

interesting

What's the psi on the air tanks?  Cuz no air pump from Wal-mart is going to be able to push a car, so the psi has to be kinda high.

My concern is air canisters become twirling rockets when punctured and very high psi can kill you from a tiny leak.

sorry, it the info was in there and I missed it.  Got bored and started skimming.

How far does the 7 seater van go?


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## Two Thumbs (Mar 1, 2011)

Synthaholic said:


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safety ratings is nothing to joke about.


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## asterism (Mar 1, 2011)

Synthaholic said:


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Got a link to the specs proving that?  The only usable engines I've seen need about  1000 psi, something a small air compressor cannot produce and even industrial compressors cannot produce in 2 minutes.


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## Oddball (Mar 1, 2011)

What happens if you get in a head-on with a squirrel?


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## Dr.House (Mar 1, 2011)

Oddball said:


> What happens if you get in a head-on with a squirrel?



The occupant of the new "Synthiamobile" is toast, but the squirrel suffers only minor lacerations and bruises...


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## Two Thumbs (Mar 1, 2011)

asterism said:


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we could swap air tanks at the air tank station.

Let me check google maps~~~~~

wth!

My 'puter is loling at me.


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## Dr.House (Mar 1, 2011)

The Synthiamobile


by Little Tikes.


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## asterism (Mar 1, 2011)

Two Thumbs said:


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Heh!

Yeah, Tata has a design that one day will allow refueling at specific stations in 2-3 minutes but 220-380v compressors included with the car will take 3-4 hours to refill.

The Air Car - zero pollution and very low running costs

Now how much electricity is used running a 220v compressor for 3 hours?  10 bucks here.  So $10 for 180 miles.  That's a cost increase, not a decrease and it's not cleaner at all since all that electricity is still consumed.


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## Two Thumbs (Mar 1, 2011)

asterism said:


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but, but, but

We have to get off oil :sob:


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## MikeK (Mar 1, 2011)

If you think the Pelosi is something wait 'til you see the Boner.  Runs on alcoholic urine and reaches a top speed of 150mph in less than ten seconds.  The only problem is it has no brakes because the manufacturer doesn't believe such added cost is necessary.


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## Provocateur (Mar 1, 2011)

asterism said:


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Sounds like a crazy scenario....nothing but compressed air tanks flying down the highways across America.  No danger there.  


Has anyone considered drilling for oil?


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## GHook93 (Mar 1, 2011)

Honestly it doesn't look anywhere as promising as the electric car, but who knows! 

Pros:
(1) Very Inexpensive: In the clip below its says the hyprid (gas and compressed air) will cost $10K! Can't imagine how cheap the regular goes for
(2) Option of No Gas at all
(4) Even with the hyprid we can get off foreign oil
(5) Stationary Energy sources aren't need
(6) No pollution or emissions (if you believe the global warming hoax)
(7) Quick Refueling - 2 mins

Cons:
(1) Looks like shit (correction looks worse than shit)
(2) Doubt it has the bells and whistles we are used to. Probably has worse features than the Model T
(4) Slow as balls - 110 KM/hr or 68 mph
(5) It a death trap. Any accident would mean most people in the car die.
(6) Doubt it has an horse power to carry or pull anything. Get two fat Americans in there and it might not move
(7) Distance - what did it say 100 KM (60 miles). Not far, but that is the same knock with the electric car
(8) Limitations - No way this car could go on crowded US highways and would be limited in cities like New York and Chicago!
(9) Prone to Theft - Look at what its made off. People could steal this car with ease!


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## GHook93 (Mar 1, 2011)

300 miles per charge (would fulfill the vast majority of Americans commutes for a 5 day work week)
5 seater. 
AMAZINGLY LOOK
All the bells and whistles we are accused to
0-60 in 5.6 sec!

Ford, Nissan, GM, Mitsubshi, Honda, Kia, BMW, Tesla, Toyota and Daimler are all pouring electric cars into the field come 2011. I predict by 2015, the 2nd generation of PERFECTED electric cars hits the market.


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## whitehall (Mar 1, 2011)

I think they have a little trapdoor on the floor for that extra push going uphill.


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## Synthaholic (Mar 2, 2011)

Two Thumbs said:


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Don't go by the still photo on Oddball's YouTube video, TT.  Watch for about 5 seconds and you will see that he is just playing the fool once again.  It suits him.


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## Synthaholic (Mar 2, 2011)

asterism said:


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I cannot account for what you have or have not seen.  Sorry.


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## Synthaholic (Mar 2, 2011)

GHook93 said:


> Honestly it doesn't look anywhere as promising as the electric car, but who knows!
> 
> Pros:
> (1) Very Inexpensive: In the clip below its says the hyprid (gas and compressed air) will cost $10K! Can't imagine how cheap the regular goes for
> ...


Thanks for the videos, GHook, although that's a different company.


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## American Horse (Mar 2, 2011)

I wonder what type of air compressor can fill such a high pressure tank in just two minutes.  Am I wrong to think that the energy used to fill the tank must be close to equivalent of the energy that is to be utilized (converted to kinetic energy) upon its release from the tank?  

These vehicles are very lightweight.  That's ok for in-city driving, but I would bet that a better way of rating their mileage would be "per-passenger" not so much by the vehicle; the 62 mile distance rating is of course optimal.


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## Two Thumbs (Mar 2, 2011)

http://www.usmessageboard.com/the-flame-zone/157591-men-please-splain-why-8.html#post3380835

I think we may be on to something here


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## asterism (Mar 2, 2011)

Synthaholic said:


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So no link to the specs?  Do you understand physics and thermodynamics?  There just isn't enough stored energy at lower pressures to move a car.  Perhaps I am wrong on that which is why it would be nice if you would prove your claim, specifically where you claimed a $79 compressor would fill the tanks in 2 minutes.


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## asterism (Mar 2, 2011)

American Horse said:


> I wonder what type of air compressor can fill such a high pressure tank in just two minutes.  Am I wrong to think that the energy used to fill the tank must be close to equivalent of the energy that is to be utilized (converted to kinetic energy) upon its release from the tank?
> 
> These vehicles are very lightweight.  That's ok for in-city driving, but I would bet that a better way of rating their mileage would be "per-passenger" not so much by the vehicle; the 62 mile distance rating is of course optimal.



SHHH!

Physics is just a collection of suggestions in the mind of an ignorant activist.


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## American Horse (Mar 3, 2011)

asterism said:


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MY own three hundred $ compressor, fills to 120-psi and when in use wont even drive nails into a pine board when it drops below 90-psi, let alone drive a thousand pounds of vehicle/passengers/cargo.  It's going to take a whale of a compressor compared to a typical one.


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## Douger (Mar 3, 2011)

There's all sorts of technology out there but murkins aren't normally interested.


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## editec (Mar 3, 2011)

I don't doubt they're pollution free in operation.

Now if but only the energy to compress that air was likewise pollution free, eh?

Sadly it isn't.

There's no free lunch.


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## Old Rocks (Mar 3, 2011)

GHook93 said:


> 300 miles per charge (would fulfill the vast majority of Americans commutes for a 5 day work week)
> 5 seater.
> AMAZINGLY LOOK
> All the bells and whistles we are accused to
> ...



All that needs to happen for electrics to become a major automotive force is a large capacity battery that has a reasonable price tag. Right now, the Zinc-air and Lithium-air look promising.


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## Mad Scientist (Mar 3, 2011)

Compressed air motors don't really have much torque. I would think a compressed air powered car would be *slow* to accelerate. I do like the idea though.

I have seen a few compressed air model airplanes in my time that performed pretty well, but of course, those were *very light weight*.


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## GHook93 (Mar 3, 2011)

Old Rocks said:


> GHook93 said:
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All first ground break technology has major set backs and high prices! Take the computer and cell phone. I remember my father saying that the cell phone would never take off, because they are too much of a burden to carry around and way too expensive (no one wants to pay $5 a minute to talk)!

The Computer:










Cell Phone:


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## The Infidel (Mar 3, 2011)

Old Rocks said:


> Interesting ideas. And a solar roof installation could power the generator for home refills.


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## The Infidel (Mar 3, 2011)

Synthaholic said:


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If thats the case.... why are'nt businessmen beating down the door of every quack who has had this silly idea yet?

Oh..... its stupid and it wont work.

Besides, I dont want to be anywhere near a compressed air tank exploding during a crash


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## The Infidel (Mar 3, 2011)

American Horse said:


> *I wonder what type of air compressor can fill such a high pressure tank in just two minutes.  Am I wrong to think that the energy used to fill the tank must be close to equivalent of the energy that is to be utilized (converted to kinetic energy) upon its release from the tank?  *
> 
> These vehicles are very lightweight.  That's ok for in-city driving, but I would bet that a better way of rating their mileage would be "per-passenger" not so much by the vehicle; the 62 mile distance rating is of course optimal.




Just the heat alone could generate enough steam to power another generator to power the compressor..... PERPETUAL ENERGY!



Im going to be rich!!!!


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## The Infidel (Mar 3, 2011)

editec said:


> I don't doubt they're pollution free in operation.
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> Now if but only the energy to compress that air was likewise pollution free, eh?
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## Synthaholic (Mar 3, 2011)

asterism said:


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OK - maybe a $79 compressor would fill the tank in more than 2 minutes.


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## asterism (Mar 3, 2011)

Synthaholic said:


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Do you have anything to substantiate that any household compressor would work at all?


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## Synthaholic (Mar 3, 2011)

asterism said:


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You're the one who has claimed that you would need 1000 psi.  Do you have any evidence that would be the requirement?

The OP states a 2 minute refill.  They do not state a tank capacity or a psi.


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## asterism (Mar 4, 2011)

Synthaholic said:


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The 1000 psi number came from my understanding of physics.  Here's linkable evidence:

World's First Air-Powered Car: Zero Emissions by Next Summer - Popular Mechanics



Synthaholic said:


> The OP states a 2 minute refill.  They do not state a tank capacity or a psi.



True.  So I'm curious about why you said this:



Synthaholic said:


> A simple air compressor for $79 at Sears would be all you need.  And running it for 2 minutes each day will use hardly any energy at all.
> 
> A car like this could truly revolutionize the daily commute to work, leaving your regular car in the driveway, saving it wear and tear, saving so much money per person for gas.   I think the average person spends $2500 per year on gas.  I would love to stick an extra $2500 per year into an investment account instead of my gas tank.



None of those claims are even remotely true.


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## GHook93 (Mar 4, 2011)

Synthaholic,

You have to be honest. These compressed air cars will be the solution to for some Americans. Maybe in rural areas, in which driving 60 miles a day is not a problem. But it won't be the long-term solution for America. The LT solution is the electric car and better stationary sources to produce the needed energy for the electric car. The goal should be to combat the global warming hoax, but to get off foreign oil and be completely ENERGY INDEPENDENT!!!

*(1) Coal is our MAIN source!* We have more coal than any other country on the planet. Don't let Reid, Pelosi, Obama and EPA shut it down like they do to our oil reserves. We have one of the largest oil reverses in the world, we could actually be oil independent, but the liberals have stopped us from foing that.

*(2) BUILD NUCLEAR PLANTS!* For god sake, why are we not building nuclear plants. Other countries like France has been doing this for a while. 

*(3) Natural Gas!* We have a ton of reserves. I saw the documentary on fracking. I don't like, so we must demand natural gas companies find more efficient and less environmental harazdous ways to extract natural gas. But Natural Gas should be promoted as our second or third source.

*(4) Maximize our Hydroelectric Sources!* Hydro is one of those green, renewable sources that actually produces a lot of energy. We still have a ton of stops in the country to build hydroelectric dams, we need to do it.

*Promote Wind and Solar, BUT BE HONEST ABOUT IT!* Wind and Solar must become more efficient and effective to become a viable alternative! Right now they aren't. The technology must get better!




Synthaholic said:


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## Skull Pilot (Mar 4, 2011)

Compressed air has a way of reacting to temperature swings.  You could find that a full tank of compressed air loses pressure as the temperature drops so I'd be a little wary of driving in the winter.


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## American Horse (Mar 4, 2011)

Skull Pilot said:


> Compressed air has a way of reacting to temperature swings.  You could find that a full tank of compressed air loses pressure as the temperature drops so I'd be a little wary of driving in the winter.



These will do just fine in Delhi India where they are originally designed to be driven.


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## Synthaholic (Mar 4, 2011)

asterism said:


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Whether you understand physics or not is irrelevant.  You pulled the 1000 psi number out of your ass, based on someone else's design, yet you want me to argue your arbitrary figure instead of the OP.  Sorry.

_"A car like this could truly revolutionize the daily commute to work"_  -  that's not a claim that's remotely true?

_"leaving your regular car in the driveway, saving it wear and tear, saving so much money per person for gas."_  -  that's not a claim that's remotely true?

_"I think the average person spends $2500 per year on gas."_  -  that's not a claim that's remotely true?

_"running it for 2 minutes each day will use hardly any energy at all."_  -  that's not a claim that's remotely true?


Now, maybe a $79 Sears compressor might not do it - or maybe it would, but the OP states that this would be a low cost option.  I would imaging that wouldn't be the case if you had to buy a very expensive compressor.


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## Synthaholic (Mar 4, 2011)

GHook93 said:


> Synthaholic,
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> *You have to be honest. These compressed air cars will be the solution to for some Americans. Maybe in rural areas, in which driving 60 miles a day is not a problem. But it won't be the long-term solution for America.* The LT solution is the electric car and better stationary sources to produce the needed energy for the electric car. The goal should be to combat the global warming hoax, but to get off foreign oil and be completely ENERGY INDEPENDENT!!!



Where have I not been honest?  And where have I implied this would be the solution for all America or that every American would want one?

See, this is the problem with the ignorant, reactionary Rightwing:  If you show them something like this, they jump to the conclusion that 'Evil Liberals' want to mandate that everyone buy one.  You see this in the first few wingnut replies to this thread.

Wingnuts are really big on slippery slope arguments, because that's what Rush and Sean tell them to think.  You can't have solar energy, because then it will become law, you can't restrict extended clips and personal bazooka ownership, because the next step is taking away everyone's peni...er, guns, and you can't have air-compressed cars because the gummint will force everyone to own one.

I think this car would be great for short work commutes, in retirement communities where they just want to get to a store and run errands, as a replacement for mail trucks, and in dense cities like NYC, Tokyo, etc.


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## Synthaholic (Mar 4, 2011)

GHook93 said:


> *(1) Coal is our MAIN source!* We have more coal than any other country on the planet. Don't let Reid, Pelosi, Obama and EPA shut it down like they do to our oil reserves. We have one of the largest oil reverses in the world, we could actually be oil independent, but the liberals have stopped us from foing that.
> 
> *(2) BUILD NUCLEAR PLANTS!* For god sake, why are we not building nuclear plants. Other countries like France has been doing this for a while.
> 
> ...



I agree with all of this.  And they now believe that fracking may be the cause of the sudden rash of earthquakes in Arkansas.


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## GHook93 (Mar 4, 2011)

Synthaholic said:


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 You say I am jumping to conclusion!  Yet you infer that I am saying your calling for a mandate to all Americans! 

All I was saying is these compressed air cars can help us get freed from oil, but its far from the solution. If all we had was these cars as the solution, then we fail! I believe the electric car is the future!


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## Synthaholic (Mar 4, 2011)

GHook93 said:


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No, I wasn't talking about you, GHook - I was talking about the wingnuts who do not want to hear about anything that isn't oil-based.


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## edthecynic (Mar 4, 2011)

asterism said:


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Ten bucks to run a compressor for 3 to 4 hours!!! 

My friend has an all electric 2 bedroom house and his highest electric bill is $350 a month in the winter. That's less than $12 per day to heat the house, the water, burn the lights, run the refrigerator, the dishwasher, TV and stereo and you expect me to believe that running a small compressor for 3 to 4 hours uses almost as much electricity as a whole house uses in the winter.


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## American Horse (Mar 4, 2011)

edthecynic said:


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Compressed air car - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Refueling the compressed air container using a home or low-end conventional air compressor may take as long as 4 hours, though specialized equipment at service stations may fill the tanks in only 3 minutes. To store 14.3 kWh @300 bar in 300 l (90 m3 @ 1 bar) reservoirs, you need at least 93 kWh on the compressor side (with an optimum single stage compressor working on the ideal adiabatic limit), or rather less with a multistage unit. That means, a compressor power of over 1 Megawatt (1000 kW) is needed to fill the reservoirs in 5 minutes from a single stage unit, or several hundred horsepower for a multistage one.


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## edthecynic (Mar 4, 2011)

American Horse said:


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Are you trying to say it will cost $10 to recharge the tank?
If you are, would you like to put some money on it?


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## asterism (Mar 4, 2011)

Synthaholic said:


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No, I asked for a link to the specs.  You never provided one.  I then did a quick calculation based on my understanding of physics and got to about 1000 psi, knowing that all the designs I've ever been exposed to were well over that.



Synthaholic said:


> _"A car like this could truly revolutionize the daily commute to work"_  -  that's not a claim that's remotely true?



Nope.  It's too expensive to buy and to use.



Synthaholic said:


> _"leaving your regular car in the driveway, saving it wear and tear, saving so much money per person for gas."_  -  that's not a claim that's remotely true?



Nope because it would cost much more in electricity costs.



Synthaholic said:


> _"I think the average person spends $2500 per year on gas."_  -  that's not a claim that's remotely true?



Nope.

Or try this one:

How Much Gas Does Your State Use Per Person? » INFRASTRUCTURIST



Synthaholic said:


> _"running it for 2 minutes each day will use hardly any energy at all."_  -  that's not a claim that's remotely true?



Nope.



Synthaholic said:


> Now, maybe a $79 Sears compressor might not do it - or maybe it would, but the OP states that this would be a low cost option.  I would imaging that wouldn't be the case if you had to buy a very expensive compressor.



Your imagination does not correlate to reality.


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## asterism (Mar 4, 2011)

Synthaholic said:


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As opposed to the ignorant reactionary leftist?  One that is clueless about how much it costs to fill up a tank capable of moving a car?


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## edthecynic (Mar 4, 2011)

asterism said:


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If I'm so "clueless" about how much it costs to recharge the tank of the air car, why don't you warranty your claim of $10 per tank, SUCKER????


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## American Horse (Mar 4, 2011)

edthecynic said:


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To air charge a tank large enough to propel a car weighing 500 pounds carrying 2 passengers weighing, GVWt.  750 lbs, 62 miles powered entirely by compressed air would cost more than $10 to fill at home (and significantly more than $10 at a commercial convenience station). 

My rationale is based on the First law of thermodynamics/conservation of energy: "The law of conservation of energy is an empirical law of physics. It states that the total amount of energy in an isolated system remains constant over time (is said to be conserved over time). A consequence of this law is that energy can neither be created or destroyed: it can only be transformed from one state to another. The only thing that can happen to energy in a closed system is that it can change form: for instance chemical energy can become kinetic energy."


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## edthecynic (Mar 4, 2011)

American Horse said:


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You don't have to explain the FLoT to me, I'm a physicist.
if you really believe it will cost $10 to fill the compressed air tank, warranty it with some money. I'll match any amount you can afford to lose without welshing. We can settle up anonymously with Paypal.


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## asterism (Mar 4, 2011)

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I would love to hear about alternatives.  I've looked into them.

How much does a 25kw system installed on my roof cost?  How much does a solar car cost?  An air car isn't feasible in Florida but solar should be.


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## asterism (Mar 4, 2011)

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Define "small."  Remember, the compressor has to fill a tank to over 1000 psi.  Do you know of any "small" compressor that can do that?

I guess it depends on the definition of "small."



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Sure.

Back when I was doing construction we'd have temporary power hooked up to the house and were given detailed billing of our usage.  Running nothing but an air compressor to power paint sprayers and impact wrenches  because there were no lights or electrical outlets (we were hanging drywall and painting), the bill worked out to about $3 per hour that the meter was running.


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## asterism (Mar 4, 2011)

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How can one settle anonymously with Paypal?


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## Immanuel (Mar 4, 2011)

Okay, I'm hittin' the hay shortly, but why is everyone knocking this technology?

Just look back at the cars of the early 20th century and compare them to today's cars.  If such technology is possible, I say get to work on it and fast... before the oil companies can find the pen and paper to buy out who ever is working on it!

Immie


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## Synthaholic (Mar 5, 2011)

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You've got nothing.


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## edthecynic (Mar 5, 2011)

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I don't see a dollar figure that you are willing to back that $3 per hour anecdotal figure up with, therefore it's WORTHLESS.

You do know that the car was first released in France and they have the cost of recharging it at French electricity rates, which are higher than the USA, using the BUILT-IN  compressor that takes 4 hours, don't you? Of course you do, that's why you won't put up any money against me.


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## American Horse (Mar 5, 2011)

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edthecynic said:


> To asterism: If I'm so "clueless" about how much it costs to recharge the tank of the air car, why don't you warranty your claim of $10 per tank, SUCKER????
> 
> You do know that the car was first released in France and they have the cost of recharging it at French electricity rates, which are higher than the USA, using the BUILT-IN  compressor that takes 4 hours, don't you? Of course you do, that's why you won't put up any money against me.



I for one don&#8217;t; source on that?
And now the vehicle is loaded down with a BUILT-IN compressor?

At any rate, read my statement; my disagreement is in the real cost per mile.  If the above (France stuff) is accurate, then the miles it will travel, loaded, cannot be 62 miles.  

I posted the blurb on FLoT, not to tutor you but to remind you to consider the proposition we&#8217;re discussing here: 
The vehicle, from the data sheet, basic model, weighs 320 kg or 710 pounds; we can assume a single passenger/driver at 190 pounds totaling 900 pounds.

The WORK required to move a vehicle with a passenger (weighing total 900 pounds) a distance of 62 miles is 900# X 5280 ft. (ft/mile) X 62 mi. = 294,624,000 Foot pounds (FPE=F.)

or 294,624,000-F

1-kwh (KWH=WORK - CHART) =  2,655,000F.

Therefore: 
294,624,000-F divided by 2,655,000F per kwh = 110.97 KWHr. that is the work (energy)  to deliver the required foot-pounds to move the loaded vehicle 62 miles.


Furthermore, to convert electrical energy to mechanical energy to charge the tank with air, and then to change the compressed air to mechanical energy to move the vehicle is not done at 100% efficiency.  You, as a physicist, are much more capable than I to calculate that; what is it &#8211; 90%? ... 85%?  We do know that it is not 100%.  

So let&#8217;s use 95% (which we know is far far too close to 1.0)

110.97 kwh/.95 =  116.81-kwh

Utility rate: $0.1 per kwh (which you used is among the lowest US rates) gives us a cost of about $11.68 per 62 mile trip.

That is the whole bone of contention for me. The salient points are 62 miles, vehicle size/weight, and energy cost to deliver
So where is the proof otherwise from the France case?

Respectfully, you're the physicist; is my math skewed?


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## asterism (Mar 5, 2011)

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Good luck with your dream.


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## asterism (Mar 5, 2011)

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Sorry but I'm not going to play your silly trolling game.  If you can figure out a way to anonymously settle the bet I'm in.  If I'm incorrect I'd gladly pay up.


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## edthecynic (Mar 5, 2011)

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Well, if you were lifting the car and passenger 62 miles in the air you would have a case. But it takes considerably less work to push the weight 62 miles on wheels.
For example, I had a Triumph Spitfire and the starter went on it. I couldn't lift the car, but I could push the car with the driver side door open fast enough to hop inside it, pop the clutch and jump start it by myself.

While you didn't put up any money, you went through so much trouble with your calculations I'll post the link to the recharge costs with the car.

Car runs on compressed air, but will it sell? - U.S. news - Environment - Green Machines - msnbc.com

*How it works 
*In both cars, an electric pump compresses air into the tank  at a pressure of 300 bars. *The pump plugs straight into an ordinary  household socket and takes four hours to complete the recharge.*
 "When you get home you normally plug in your cell phone," said Braud. "Well, now you do that with your car too."




  The already attractive economics of the Air Car  *MDI claims a  recharge costs just $2.50 at French electricity prices * can only get  more persuasive if oil prices stay high.
 "It certainly can't hurt," said Braud. "It will help encourage people to switch over."
 The Air Car's pistons, pumped by the escaping compressed air, can  take the vehicle up to 70 miles per hour. It can travel 50 miles at top  speed on a full tank, or further at lower speeds.
 Slightly pricier hybrid versions achieve higher speeds and longer  ranges by running on a combination of compressed air and conventional  gasoline, or bio-fuels derived from organic matter.


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## editec (Mar 5, 2011)

Compressed Air powered cars solve ZERO energy problems.

They are a stupid idea EXCEPT for possible powering vehicles in places were ZERO pollution can be tolerated.

_This is not immediately apparent to all of us?_

Come on folks this is 8th grade science.

Converting energy into potential energy results in losses every time it is done.

Compressed air is nothing but potential energy that we spend more energy making that we can use.

I dont;' give a crap what compressor you use more energy to compress the gas is lost than is turned back into potential energy.

You might as well suggest that the solution to the energty problem is to tow everybody car up hill so that when we need to use it we can us GRAVITY.

WAKE UP and smell the laws of THERMO DYNAMICS


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## asterism (Mar 5, 2011)

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Please explain to the class how a compressor can charge a tank to 300 bar (that's 4351 psi) for $2.50?

Here's a handy formula:

HP x .746 x hours x Kw cost / motor efficiency

Assuming $.15 per Kwh and a 100% efficient motor, that means $2.5 would run a 22hp compressor for one hour or in the example you quoted, a 5 hp motor for 4 hours.

Now tell us where we can get a compressor that reaches 300 bar in an hour using a 22 hp motor, or a compressor that reaches 4351 psi on 5 hp in any time frame?


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## Immanuel (Mar 5, 2011)

editec said:


> Compressed Air powered cars solve ZERO energy problems.
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Sorry, but the way I see it is that if we all had that kind of an attitude, we'd still be trying to figure out how to make a wheel round.

Immie


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## edthecynic (Mar 5, 2011)

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Simple! Just buy the air car, it comes with its own pump!!!!!


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## asterism (Mar 5, 2011)

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Ok, let's try this another way.

Please explain the physics that would have to take place to convert 16 kWh of electricity to 4351 psi using a 5 hp compressor.


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## JoReba (Mar 5, 2011)

Synthaholic said:


> Awesome technology, totally clean, and you can fill it up from your garage!
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Guess waht?  It still takes carbon producing electricity to compress the air for the car.  Understand ... ?  Lol.  In fact, the air engine is much less thermodynamically efficient than an electric car.


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## Synthaholic (May 1, 2011)

Now, this is the compressed air car that I want!








*       2010 Volvo Air Motion Concept Design    *


 Lets face it, nearly everybody in the world is affected by the price  of fuel and this has affected our lifestyle. But with the Volvo Air  Motion Canyon Carver, gasoline is history. Thats right, this is a  vehicle that uses no gasoline at all but still considered to be a fast  car. This car uses air to run.

 Its exterior is designed like a clamshell; a body made from carbon  fiber and can hold up to four people. The normally heavy conventional  internal engine is replaced by compressed air motors. Theses motors cool  down instead of heating up when it is under load, making heavy cooling  systems unnecessary for the vehicle, thus making it lighter. Instead of  gasoline stations, the mounted air tank of the vehicle is filled with  compressed air using Air Replenishment Sites; these sites are  outfitted with a wind-power air turbines suspended one-thousand feet in  the air. This car makes people say goodbye to gasoline, gasoline-powered  cars and/or vehicles, and although this doesnt eliminate the need for  gasoline completely, it eliminates one of the machines that need it the  most.


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