# Good Teachers....Bad Teachers



## PoliticalChic (Jun 21, 2011)

Sure there are good teachers...bet each of us can name three who changed our lives.

"Value-added teacher evaluation" can help identify the good ones.

From an interesting essay in the City Journal:

1.	Value-added teacher evaluationa method that estimates the contribution teachers make to students test-score gainsis a concept whose time has most definitely come. Californians are entitled to know precisely *who is and isnt delivering the goods for their children. *

2.	The Los Angeles Times last month published a much-anticipated follow-up to its path-breaking 2010 investigation, which *ranked 6,000 third-, fourth-, and fifth-grade teachers based on their students progress on standardized tests year after year*. The updated rankings include data for more than 11,500 teachers. Using the California Public Records Act, Times reporters Jason Felch, Jason Song, and Doug Smith obtained student math and language arts scores for the Los Angeles Unified School District from 2003 through 2009. 

3.	The newspaper commissioned Richard Budden, a senior economist and education researcher with the Santa Monicabased RAND Corporation, to analyze the data. Using the value-added technique, he converted the scores into percentile ratings, and then divided them into *five equal categories from least effective to most effective*.

4.	The Times stories have *exposed that what currently passes for teacher evaluation in California is useless. *Currently, a principal or other administrator may visit a class several times (usually with a warning given long in advance), stay a few minutes, scribble down some notes, and leave.Thanks to this ineffective process, more than 99 percent of all teachers receive satisfactory ratings, and after just two years in the classroom achieve tenureessentially a job for life.

5.	Undaunted by the unions bullying, the Times spent the next nine months showing *the benefits of value-added teacher evaluations. *The paper reported: Highly effective teachers routinely *propel students *from below grade level to advanced in a single year. There is a substantial gap at years end between students whose teachers were in the top 10 percent in effectiveness and the bottom 10 percent. The fortunate students ranked 17 percentile points higher in English and 25 points higher in math.

6.	Studies have shown that *two consecutive years with a bad teacher can leave students so far behind that they will never catch up.*

7.	Hoover Institution senior fellow and economist Eric Hanushek claims that while value-added analysis isnt perfect, its the best tool we have available to zero in on the *impact of the individual teacher *on student achievement gains.

8.	Teachers unions dislike all forms of substantive teacher evaluation, viewing any kind of official differentiation among teachers as encouraging competition, which sows envy and thus undermines solidarity. *Truth is, of course, objective evaluations show that some teachers really are more effective than others.*Grading the Teachers by Larry Sand - City Journal


Let's not throw the baby out with the bad teachers....


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## psikeyhackr (Jun 21, 2011)

The nice thing about good books is that they are independent of the teachers.

The Tyranny of Words by Stuart Chase
Books: Semantics - TIME

That is from 1938 but I only found out about it last year.  But he talks about Alfred Korzybski who I read decades ago.  But Korzybski is really hard to understand.

But now computers can get us stuff for free.

Eight Keys to Eden by Mark Irvin Clifton - Free eBook

even though some people want to make us pay.

Fictionwise eBooks: Eight Keys to Eden by Mark Clifton

psik


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## Big Black Dog (Jun 21, 2011)

When I was in school, the good teachers always seemed to be pleased with my intelligence.  The bad teachers were always the ones who were critical of the teachers that thought I was smart.


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## psikeyhackr (Jun 21, 2011)

Good teachers taught math or science and concentrated on the subject not on convincing you that you could not learn the subject without them.

psik


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## signelect (Jun 21, 2011)

Our country is in an education crisis, the administrators are paid huge fixed salaries and are not delivering.  They don't want fair evaluations because it will show just how bad things are.  We rank very near the bottom of the list in Texas and we have been throwing money at it for years.  Teachers today can't teach because they have become day care providers for parents who can not or will not do anything to education their own children.  It is far easier to blame someone else.


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## midcan5 (Jun 21, 2011)

PoliticalChic said:


> Sure there are good teachers...bet each of us can name three who changed our lives.
> [...]
> 6.	Studies have shown that *two consecutive years with a bad teacher can leave students so far behind that they will never catch up.*
> [...]



City Journal is full of simplistic nonsense and this is just another example. *Two years will leave students behind forever? Where did this conclusion come from? A genuine study?* No, of course not, it came from the imagination of someone too lazy to figure out what was really going on in our schools and in our culture. What about a lifetime of TV watching? That should destroy anyone forever. Or lousy, lazy parents? Or lousy, lazy self? How about the inner city schools that are falling down, and full of juvenile delinquents with little parental support? Anyone with half a brain would know two years hardly make up a lifetime, nor does school fill enough of that time to have such impact. You wanna know why some students do poorly? They just don't live in zip codes in which income is in the top brackets. If you doubt that check it out sometime and throw City Journal in the trash where it belongs.


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## PoliticalChic (Jun 21, 2011)

midcan5 said:


> PoliticalChic said:
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> > Sure there are good teachers...bet each of us can name three who changed our lives.
> ...



Oooooo.....

This is bad news....

I post about a statistical method for identifying poor teachers...and you go berserk.
What are you so sensitive about?

Hmmmmm....


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## Big Black Dog (Jun 21, 2011)

Teachers don't need to teach you how to read and write or to do basic math and by all means, don't worry about teaching history as it really happened.  What they are required to do though is to teach you that condoms are available in the nurses office, you don't need to have your parent's permission to get an abortion and the only real political solution to today's problems come from only the liberal politicians.  They are also determined to inform your kid about how nice is it that there are queers in the world.


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## PoliticalChic (Jun 21, 2011)

Big Black Dog said:


> Teachers don't need to teach you how to read and write or to do basic math and by all means, don't worry about teaching history as it really happened.  What they are required to do though is to teach you that condoms are available in the nurses office, you don't need to have your parent's permission to get an abortion and the only real political solution to today's problems come from only the liberal politicians.  They are also determined to inform your kid about how nice is it that there are queers in the world.



Hey, Doggie...are you suggesting that education isn't what it once was???

It's no longer the attempt to instill middle class values and erudition??

Why...I never!


Hey, wanna feel worse, this from one of Winchester's books, check out what the English folk of the time were like:

On Wednesday, June 6, 1928 the Oxford English Dictionary was completed. In "The Meaning of Everything," Simon Winchester discusses the English of the time as follows:

	The English establishment of the day might be rightly derided at this remove as having been class-ridden and imperialist, bombastic and blimpish, racist and insouciant- but it was marked undeniably also by *a sweeping erudition and confidence, and it was peopled by men and women who felt they were able to know all, to understand much, and in consequence to radiate the wisdom of deep learning*.


(sigh)


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## Big Black Dog (Jun 21, 2011)

PoliticalChic said:


> Big Black Dog said:
> 
> 
> > Teachers don't need to teach you how to read and write or to do basic math and by all means, don't worry about teaching history as it really happened.  What they are required to do though is to teach you that condoms are available in the nurses office, you don't need to have your parent's permission to get an abortion and the only real political solution to today's problems come from only the liberal politicians.  They are also determined to inform your kid about how nice is it that there are queers in the world.
> ...



When I was in high school, there was a dress code.  No facial hair, no jeans or tennis shoes, shirts had to have a collar and everybody had to have a proper haircut.  You were not allowed to participate in any sports if you had a grade average of less than a C in any class.  Teachers (males) all wore at the least a tie and most wore a suit, and all of the female teachers wore some sort of dress or a skirt, etc.  No jogging suits, jeans, etc.  Today, there is no dress code, in our local area schools you can be failing two classes and still be active in sports, it's ok to have a cell phone, drink pop and chew gum in class.  The education we got back then was far superior to what the kids are getting now.  You be the judge.  My opinion is that our schools, teachers, and just about every element of eduction is broken - badly.  It's going to be the cause of our demise.


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## midcan5 (Jun 21, 2011)

PoliticalChic said:


> midcan5 said:
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> > PoliticalChic said:
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I am the calmest person you'd ever meet. Your post has nothing to do with identifying poor teachers, it has more to do with finger pointing from a publication that sucks. You need to see that, I already do.


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## Dabs (Jun 21, 2011)

Big Black Dog said:


> PoliticalChic said:
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> > Big Black Dog said:
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Just for the record, in my school, where I work and my grandchildren go, we do have a dress code.
The elementary schools, which is K thru 5th doesn't have as  strict a code, but shorts must not be too short and no tank tops, simple things really.
But in our middle school- which is 6th, 7th and 8th graders, they must wear Khaki pants/shorts/skirts and a Blue shirt---ONLY.
No yellow shirts, or white shirts or red and blue ones, no tie dyed, no sequins, no tank tops or t-shirts that have any words, of any kind...they have to wear BLUE shirts. And the shirts must have sleeves. The shirt can be a t-shirt, but with no pockets or a golf-type shirt, with a couple of buttons in front, or a whole dress shirt, buttoned completely down.
And when I say Khaki pants, I mean the tan colored Khakis...nothing else is allowed.
I find it rather annoying at times, because my granddaughter feels like she is wearing the same damn outfit every day, and so one basically has to buy about 4 or 5 pairs of the same pant.
But, the teachers are to dress nice too. No teachers in our schools wear shorts, they wear long slacks or dresses or a pair of capris is allowed.
And our high schools have dress codes too. If your child is in 5th grade or less, you have more to choose from, in regards to what you send your child to school in. But once they reach 6th grade, it's over for the child's choosing, they must be in dress code.


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## random3434 (Jun 21, 2011)

Big Black Dog said:


> Teachers don't need to teach you how to read and write or to do basic math and by all means, don't worry about teaching history as it really happened.  What they are required to do though is to teach you that condoms are available in the nurses office, you don't need to have your parent's permission to get an abortion and the only real political solution to today's problems come from only the liberal politicians.  They are also determined to inform your kid about how nice is it that there are queers in the world.



Your teacher friends here at the USMB, Annie, Chanel and myself thank you for this post.


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## PoliticalChic (Jun 21, 2011)

midcan5 said:


> PoliticalChic said:
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Well, you certainly would have a degree of expertise as to "a publication that sucks." After all, you read "Sojourners," don't you?

1. "Your post has nothing to do with identifying poor teachers,..."
Wrong again...

"Value-added evaluations offer a better way of assessing a teachers strengths and weaknesses in the classroom....Value-added isnt new, but the technique has gained greater acceptance recently as a way of evaluating teachers. Louisiana, Texas, and North Carolina have incorporated value-added into their teacher evaluation rules."

2. "There is a substantial gap at years end between students whose teachers were in the top 10 percent in effectiveness and the bottom 10 percent. The fortunate students ranked 17 percentile points higher in English and 25 points higher in math. 

Had enough? No?

3."Ever wonder how effective your childs teacher is? Officials in Albany would rather you didnt know. At least thats the lesson one has to take from their refusal to allow data systems to match students to teachers,

Standardized tests produce rich sources of information that researchers can use to identify effective policies and practices. The data revolution, moreover, promises to move education policy away from politics. Numbers dont have agendas or run for reelection. Accurately collected and properly analyzed, data can reveal truths that escape our sight.

One such truth is the effectiveness of individual teachers. Data analysis is far from perfect, and no one argues that it should be used in isolation to make employment decisions. But modern techniques can help us distinguish between teachers whose students excel and teachers whose students languish or fail. Theres just one problem with the data revolution: it doesnt work without data."

Teachers Unions vs. ProgressAgain by Marcus A. Winters, City Journal 14 December 2009

Sure seems informative.

4. Now, as the link states, stats alone may not be sufficient...but:
"Recent statistical advances have made it possible to look at student achievement gains after adjusting for some
student and school characteristics. These approaches that measure growth using value-added modeling (VAM) are
fairer comparisons of teachers than judgments based on their students test scores at a single point in time or comparisons
of student cohorts that involve different students at two points in time. VAM methods have also contributed to stronger
analyses of school progress, program influences, and the validity of evaluation methods than were previously possible."
http://epi.3cdn.net/724cd9a1eb91c40ff0_hwm6iij90.pdf

5. But, hey, you probably insist we rely on ....what.....seniority?
Here, from your fav publication:
That is, upward of 98 percent of a teachers contribution to her students learning owes to factors other than experience. Since the number of years teachers spend in the classroom hardly explains why some of their students show lots of progress and others show none at all, it makes almost no sense to decide, entirely based on seniority, whom to let go and whom to retain.
Experience Doesn't Teach by Marcus A. Winters, City Journal 27 April 2010


But, like the citizen who wanted to avoid jury duty, and declared "I can just look at a perp and tell if he is guilty or not...."
... you can probably just look at a teacher and see if they are effective or not....

...as long as they're progressive, eh?


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## William Joyce (Jun 21, 2011)

PoliticalChic said:


> *Truth is, of course, objective evaluations show that some teachers really are more effective than others.*



"Some are better than others" is a forbidden notion in America.  Wee iz all ekwal.


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## Trajan (Jun 21, 2011)

well we can thank jerry brown for appointing union friendly thugs to the controlling agency, so as  to stop or that is change a law, extent,  that allows parents to demand closure and re org. of their failing schools...in Compton no less...thats just jerry doing his part to hep da weedle chillen to lernz..


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## Polk (Jun 21, 2011)

Stricter performance standards would improve the quality of education, but it's really a dodge of the real problem. Teachers are expected to be professionals, but they aren't paid the kind of salaries professionals are paid. The result is that people who end up becoming teachers are, by and large, the people who couldn't cut it in other areas.


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## JamesInFlorida (Jun 21, 2011)

Polk said:


> Stricter performance standards would improve the quality of education, but it's really a dodge of the real problem. Teachers are expected to be professionals, but they aren't paid the kind of salaries professionals are paid. The result is that people who end up becoming teachers are, by and large, the people who couldn't cut it in other areas.



I think better teachers should be paid more than worse teachers. It's a simple solution. If a teacher is a great teacher-I don't think many people would resent paying them a nice salary. If a teacher sucks-they should be shown the door.

It's not that we spend too much, or too little money on education. It's that we waste the money that is spent, on stupid stuff.


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## Polk (Jun 22, 2011)

JamesInFlorida said:


> Polk said:
> 
> 
> > Stricter performance standards would improve the quality of education, but it's really a dodge of the real problem. Teachers are expected to be professionals, but they aren't paid the kind of salaries professionals are paid. The result is that people who end up becoming teachers are, by and large, the people who couldn't cut it in other areas.
> ...



The best teachers are still underpaid under that system.


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## chanel (Jun 22, 2011)

A value-added system sounds good on paper, but how would it work?  Testing in every subject every year?  Do you know how much that would cost? How much time would be wasted? How would special education teachers be paid? 

Is it fair to hold teachers responsible for truancy, transiency, and neglect?

Tenure needs to be reformed; not eliminated.  "Bad teachers" need to be fired, but student test scores do NOT measure "bad teachers".  When a 4th grader is tested in October, does that reflect what he has learned in 4th grade, or in K-3?  

Believe it or not folks, good teachers are rewarded and bad teachers are punished.  In the first 3 years, many new teachers are denied tenure.  After that, certain favorites are given perks like good classes, duties, and paid extracurricular positions.. Consequently, less popular teachers are given those that nobody else wants.  Good teachers are left alone; bad teachers are watched constantly.

Every single year, I have gotten all the classes I have requested.  When I ask for supplies, maintenance requests, or anything else to make the job less stressful, it is granted.   When others bitch about all of the above, I just smile.  That's worth far more than money.


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## JamesInFlorida (Jun 22, 2011)

chanel said:


> A value-added system sounds good on paper, but how would it work?  Testing in every subject every year?  Do you know how much that would cost? How much time would be wasted? How would special education teachers be paid?
> 
> Is it fair to hold teachers responsible for truancy, transiency, and neglect?
> 
> ...



Well first of all I think the most accurate way to determine whether a teacher is good or not, is by monitoring how much their students learn/improve from the start of the school year to the end. I don't think it should be a knee-jerk reaction. I think if over a few years the teacher consistently has students that just aren't learning enough-they should be fired.

Not sure how it is in your state, or school district but here when teachers go into a pool and apply for an open position the principal HAS to hire the first person who walks in the door. If person A walks in at 10:00 and wants the job, but person B who's much more qualified (has better results, awards, recognitions, higher degree) walks in-they don't get the job.

The principals have to hire based on the longevity of the teacher, and who looks better on paper-even if a newer teacher would make a much better teacher.

Then when schools get money, instead of using it for new computer labs, or other educational tools-what do they do? Build new football facilities, and new locker rooms. And people wonder why our education system sucks.

edit: And the amount of money we spend on the education system shouldn't be an issue. If a better way of measuring teacher's effectiveness is expensive-so? Our education system here is crumbling, and I think it's completely unacceptable. We used to be #1. We used to be the country that produced the most scientists, the most inventors, education was the backbone of this country-and it just isn't anymore. We need to invest (and yes that means spend money) on our education system. But the problem is when we've done that in the past-we just blindly threw money at the problem, we didn't address the needs. I don't think people really mind if we spend money on education-it's how the money gets spent which is the problem.


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## random3434 (Jun 22, 2011)

There may be another reason students aren't learning as 'well as they used to' like the 'good ole days'~Technology. Yes, it can enhance education if used right, but how many American kids are "Plugged In" to video games, their computers, Social Networks,cell phones, ipods, etc.



> Reading for pleasure, which has declined among young people in recent decades, enhances thinking and engages the imagination in a way that visual media such as video games and television do not, Greenfield said.




Here is an interesting article about it:


Is Technology Producing A Decline In Critical Thinking And Analysis?


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## Skull Pilot (Jun 22, 2011)

The one immutable fact that I learned about teachers:

Those that can't do teach.  Those that can't teach teach phys ed.


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## PoliticalChic (Jun 22, 2011)

chanel said:


> A value-added system sounds good on paper, but how would it work?  Testing in every subject every year?  Do you know how much that would cost? How much time would be wasted? How would special education teachers be paid?
> 
> Is it fair to hold teachers responsible for truancy, transiency, and neglect?
> 
> ...



"Find a job that you love and you'll never have to work a day in your life."

Sounds like it's true.


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## PoliticalChic (Jun 22, 2011)

Polk said:


> Stricter performance standards would improve the quality of education, but it's really a dodge of the real problem. Teachers are expected to be professionals, but they aren't paid the kind of salaries professionals are paid. The result is that people who end up becoming teachers are, by and large, the people who couldn't cut it in other areas.



Although senior teachers in NYC are paid over $100K...

...I believe that there is a great big dollop of truth in what you say, tie-man.
With the opportunities that have opened up for women in medicine and law, many top folks now look elsewhere for status and money.

I would like to see computers and technology used to their fullest...for teachers....so that a teacher could choose how many classes to teach, her time schedule, numbers of students in her classes....
....pay based on these parameters as well as performance.
My point is that said changes would allow women to pick teaching so as to fit it into having a family.


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## M.D. Rawlings (Jun 22, 2011)

Big Black Dog said:


> When I was in school, the good teachers always seemed to be pleased with my intelligence.  The bad teachers were always the ones who were critical of the teachers that thought I was smart.



I was a "passed-on kid" for the first four years of school; i.e., I was learning very little, though I could read well.  In fact, that's all I did.  Read.  While the others were listening and learning and doing their work in class, I read:  _Tom Sawyer_, _Huckleberry Finn_, _A Tale of Two Cities_, _The Count of Monte Cristo_, _The Call of the Wild_. . . .   

Outside class I liked sports, my only other real interest.

But in class when I wasn't reading, I was dreaming.  I was a dummy.  Stupid.  And I knew this to be true because my first grade teacher told me I was a dummy, that I was stupid.  So I didn't bother, just read and dreamed.  I knew my multiplication table, barely.  I could add and multiply, slowly.  But I couldn't subtract or do long division.

I was just passed on . . . until I ran into my fifth grade teacher who within a week noticed what no other teacher seemed to have noticed before.  Well, she put an end to my dream years.  She was delighted that I read at a twelfth-grade level, but appalled at the fact that I couldn't do much of anything else and didn't know much of anything else outside certain works of literature.  She changed my life.  By the end of my fifth year, I had caught with my peers.  By the end of my sixth year, I was ahead of most.

I suspect from all reports that in today's public education system my story is not so novel anymore, but increasingly becoming the norm.  Too many teachers just don&#8217;t give a damn.  It's a paycheck.  It's security.  It's benefits.  The unions protect bad teachers, block innovation, choice and meaningful reform.  Worse, reams of time are wasted on pure junk, the stuff of political correctness, multiculturalism, the banalities of sensitivity training, tolerance, acceptance, self-esteem, Mother Earth, _Jenny Has Two Mommies_, _Johnny Has Two Daddies_ or whatever. . . .


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## psikeyhackr (Jun 22, 2011)

This video says the chances of having 5 great teacher in a row is 1 in 17,000.

https://ideas.hmh.spigit.com/Page/theneed

So they are saying less than 1 in 7 teachers is great.

psik


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## initforme (Jun 22, 2011)

Those that are critical of teachers could never, NEVER hack it in todays classroom.    They would be on anti depressents within 2 weeks.   And considering how the percentage of terrible parents outnumber the good ones in america now, its going to be tough to come up with a system to rate teachers.  So lets leave it at if the principal likes you, you get the merit pay.  I believe $5,000 per every kid a teacher helps do well would be a start.   That would be a nice bonus for a good teacher.


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## Momanohedhunter (Jun 22, 2011)

PoliticalChic said:


> Sure there are good teachers...bet each of us can name three who changed our lives.
> 
> "Value-added teacher evaluation" can help identify the good ones.
> 
> ...



Mrs Fisher.

Mrs Abedigeion (sp!)

FC1 Rumschlag. Good shits all.


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## chikenwing (Jun 22, 2011)

midcan5 said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Sure there are good teachers...bet each of us can name three who changed our lives.
> ...



Simplistic or not,its as true as the sun coming up in the east. It sounds like you have never had kids in a public school,might be wrong on that,but bet not.


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## spectrumc01 (Jun 22, 2011)

If a student likes the teacher, the teacher is viewed as good, and the student will excell.  If the student doesn't like the teacher, the teacher is viewed as bad and the student will not excell.  Same teacher different viewpoint.  It's not wether teachers are good or bad, but rather are students good or bad.


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## psikeyhackr (Jun 22, 2011)

spectrumc01 said:


> If a student likes the teacher, the teacher is viewed as good, and the student will excell.  If the student doesn't like the teacher, the teacher is viewed as bad and the student will not excell.  Same teacher different viewpoint.  It's not wether teachers are good or bad, but rather are students good or bad.



Students need to focus on the subject instead of the teacher.  I got A's form teachers I liked and I got A's from teachers I could not stand in math and science.  English teachers were all just OK and I only got B's.  Who gives a damn about English Literature?

We should concentrate on getting really good books on the subject.  The better the book the less dependent the students are on the teacher.

Teach Yourself Electricity and Electronics, Fourth Edition : McGraw-Hill Professional Online Book Store

psik


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## Polk (Jun 22, 2011)

PoliticalChic said:


> Polk said:
> 
> 
> > Stricter performance standards would improve the quality of education, but it's really a dodge of the real problem. Teachers are expected to be professionals, but they aren't paid the kind of salaries professionals are paid. The result is that people who end up becoming teachers are, by and large, the people who couldn't cut it in other areas.
> ...



How many years of experience does a senior teacher have? 20? At that point, a secretary in NYC is making that much.


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## linyatta (Jun 22, 2011)

from my point of view (elementary teacher for 8 years for title 1 schools), here are some of the things that aren't working;

1.) Some teachers don't seem to like kids.  The truth is this, I don't know anyone that became a teacher because they didn't like kids.  What I've seen is that young teachers (rather new teachers), don't come in with high enough expectations for the kids.  The kids' behavior then gets out of control and the teacher, not wanting to seem like a BAD teacher, resorts to the oldest form of control, yelling and screaming.  this leads to unhappy teachers and students.  My students go to 5th grade and tell me all about their classrooms.  I was there too for a couple of years, but I made adjustments and read a book.  

We need prospective teachers to be able to observe great teachers.  My student teaching taught me nothing and I was not prepared.  There might be a supply and demand problem there.

2.)  Parents in low income families are by and large not contributing in any way to their kids education.  School is a break from their kid.  Parent's are not interested or at least act uninterested in their progress.  I know a lot of that is human nature, but its not good for the kid, teacher and test scores.  

There is a direct correlation between the income of a family and how well I know the parents by the end of the year, and the children are never failing if I know their parents well.

3.) No child left behind, leaves children behind.  Test scores require hard decisions at times.  Students who are enrolled after Oct 4th do not count on test scores.  Who do you think gets the in school tutoring we provide with push in subs, not them.  What happens to the student who had to move mid year and has gaps to fill.  They don't get filled.  Its all for the almighty test score. Games are played with reclassification of English language learners (probably not a big deal, but I'm saying this is a science now).  

I am at a very high performing school in southern california and we are the model for our large district.

4.)  Our district requires so many tests we haven't got much time for teaching because we are either prepping for a test or taking a test.  I counted once and it was over 8 weeks of testing (not for the whole day, but long enough where burnout plays a roll and the rest of the day is not productive).  

5.) because we have to congregate as a district every year and applaud each others API scores with little skits (I'm not even joking about this), it has become clear that the score is all that matters anymore.  Principals know this and are expendable.  They need teachers who will get good scores.  Teachers will do whatever it takes to keep the principal off of them so that means we perfect teaching to the test.  My principal always said, you're not teaching to the test if your doing it all year.  In other words, using test released question from day one is our normal teaching procedure.  

This is not fun for anyone and is very stressful for the kids.  

I want to leave the education industry soon.  I just don't see any positive changes coming.  We are the model, others aspire to be like my school, so where could I go.  

Parental knowledge and interest is waning.  This part of the triangle of learning (parents/teachers/students) is vital to any change.  Your throwing money down a hole if the parents aren't involved in their child's learning.

BTW, i might be negative on education, but I have professional pride and care about those kids.  I want it more than many of them do.  I try to inspire and turn out good critical thinking students.  Most teachers are this way, I know of only 2 that weren't in my years of teaching.


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## initforme (Jun 23, 2011)

Linyatta,

Great post.  Many good ideas and good insight.   The majority of parents today simply view schools as a place to send their kids.   They dont keep up with their kids education.   When the kid gets a "c" or below right away its the teachers fault.   Not to mention with the demonization of all teachers today in this country what high performing individual wants to stay in it?   In america we have clearly shown 3 things...

1)  We dont value education.  We say we do, but we dont.   
2)  We view teachers (good ones) as second class citizens.
3)  There is a large percentage of parents who are totally univolved in their kids education and they expect their kids to thrive academically.   When their kids dont perform, its a simple out.  It's the teachers fault.

When I hear people complain about teachers I hear

"only work 9 months"
" have summers off"
"not in it for the kids"

those are the same people who claim that in the US you are free to do what you want and you shouldnt be critical or envious of how someone else is doing.  Dont be angry that someone is successful.   Yet they complain about those who have decided to teach and do it successfully.   They indeed are the definition of hypocrites.


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## spectrumc01 (Jun 23, 2011)

Perhaps a tax deduction for parents whose children achieve decent grades, attendance, and a diploma would motivate parents?  We've tried everything else why not this?


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## PoliticalChic (Jun 23, 2011)

Polk said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Polk said:
> ...



Not for half a years work: 180 days in the school year.


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## JamesInFlorida (Jun 23, 2011)

PoliticalChic said:


> Polk said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...



In all fairness teachers work more than 8 hours a day, when you factor in they have to make lesson plans, and grade papers/projects/tests/etc. How many jobs is it required to take your job home with you? Not many.

Now I think teacher seniority getting more benefits than newer teachers is complete BS. But by no stretch of the imagination do teachers have an easy job.


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## linyatta (Jun 24, 2011)

JamesInFlorida said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Polk said:
> ...



 I have learned to work smarter over the years.  I really don't take work home with me anymore.  I pretty much work 8 hours a day.  Not to say I don't think about work when I'm off, but who doesn't.  I also know that lower grade levels have a lot more to do as far as planning and do work longer. 

With the right technology in the classrooms the teacher can free up much time in grading (using scantrons or gradecam software with hovercams).  Most of the year is testing anyway.  And as I stated somewhere, I give very little homework and can spot check it in the morning during morning work with each child.  I prefer to reteach at that time if needed.  

I will never complain about the money I make for the time I work.  I love the time off and the independence of the job.  However, the fact that I am ready to go after only 8 years, with all the benefits and time off should tell you just how stressful it is.  It absolutely zaps your energy.  

The job, if done right, doesn't allow for a single free second in the day.  I am never, ever sitting down. I take care of a myriad of problems every day while trying to keep everyone focused on standards.  I work dances, give awards, take conferences for various things, judge science fairs, administer spelling bees and on and on.  And all teachers help out with the many non academic programs, including sports.  You better be willing  and able to juggle many different things at the same time to be a teacher at the elementary level.  

At the end of the day I am exhausted and ready for a dark, silent room.  I am currently about midway through my 71 day vacation and I got to tell you, It's not long enough. 

BTW, the reason I am exhausted is because of the difficulty in managing students today.  Which stems from a lack of time, consequences and parental help.  Students are wearing out the teachers.  

I've heard that the average burnout rate is 5 years and that teachers were second behind police officers or alcoholism rates.

To those who think we're the enemy, don't hate me because I made the decision to go to college and get a secure job with good pay and a lot of time off.  Teachers have always had the same work year.  I didn't force anyone to set my terms of employment.  You also had the option to do this but chose not to.  

I subbed for a year before deciding on my credential.  Believe me, without the time off, the decent starting salary, and the benefits, I would not have chosen this profession.  Anyone going to school for 6 years to make 40k a year to start (in a high paying county), would need some added incentives.


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## editec (Jul 4, 2011)

Nobody expects Doctors to score 100% sucess with patient outcomes.

Nobody expects lawyers to win every case.

Nobody expects accountants to interpret the tax laws correctly every time.

Nobody expects their stockbroker to give them good advice 100% of the time.

Nobody expects Generals to win every battle.

Nobody expects preachers to save every soul.

Nobody expects that their mechanics can keep their cars going forever.

Nobody expects bonds rating agencies to get it right every time.

Nobody expects CEOs to get every business decision absolutely right.

Nobody expects Congress to get it right every time

Nobody expect the SCOTUS to get it right every time

Nobody expects the POTUS to get it right every time.


But let one kid fall behind, and we're ready to tear apart our entire educational system and hang the teachers out to dry.


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## chanel (Jul 4, 2011)

> No Dentist Left Behind
> 
> 
> My dentist is great! He sends me reminders so I don't forget check-ups. He uses the latest techniques based on research. He never hurts me, and I've got all my teeth. When I ran into him the other day, I was eager to see if he'd heard about the new state program. I knew he'd think it was great.
> ...



No Dentist Left Behind - A to Z Teacher Stuff Forums


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## editec (Jul 4, 2011)

> "did you hear about the new state program to measure effectiveness of dentists with their young patients?" i said. "no," he said. He didn't seem too thrilled. "how will they do that?" "it's quite simple," i said. *"they will just count the number of cavities each patient has at age 10, 14, and 18 and average that to determine a dentist's rating. Dentists will be rated as excellent, good, average, below average, and unsatisfactory. *that way parents will know which are the best dentists. The plan will also encourage the less effective dentists to get better," i ! ; said. "poor dentists who don't improve could lose their licenses to practice."


 
lol!


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## Samson (Jul 4, 2011)

Big Black Dog said:


> When I was in school, the good teachers always seemed to be pleased with my intelligence.  The bad teachers were always the ones who were critical of the teachers that thought I was smart.



Did you have any good teachers?


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## Samson (Jul 4, 2011)

chanel said:


> Every single year, I have gotten all the classes I have requested.  When I ask for supplies, maintenance requests, or anything else to make the job less stressful, it is granted.   When others bitch about all of the above, I just smile.  _*That's worth far more than money. *_



Heh....you just explained why teachers will never be paid more.

IMHO the best way to evaluate good teachers is to give parents a $500/yr voucher payable to the teacher of their choice.


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## random3434 (Jul 4, 2011)

chanel said:


> > No Dentist Left Behind
> >
> >
> > My dentist is great! He sends me reminders so I don't forget check-ups. He uses the latest techniques based on research. He never hurts me, and I've got all my teeth. When I ran into him the other day, I was eager to see if he'd heard about the new state program. I knew he'd think it was great.
> ...



Ah, but this will go over many of the 'haters' heads Chanel...................


But spot on!

Happy 4th!


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## MaggieMae (Jul 4, 2011)

signelect said:


> Our country is in an education crisis, the administrators are paid huge fixed salaries and are not delivering.  They don't want fair evaluations because it will show just how bad things are.  We rank very near the bottom of the list in Texas and we have been throwing money at it for years.  Teachers today can't teach because they have become day care providers for parents who can not or will not do anything to education their own children.  It is far easier to blame someone else.



Not only are schools expected to teach and also to parent, but some high schools (several in Texas) actually have day care centers on site to care for babies born to unwed teens who still want to graduate. The abysmal quality of education won't get any better until EDUCATION becomes its own entity again.


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## MaggieMae (Jul 4, 2011)

PoliticalChic said:


> Big Black Dog said:
> 
> 
> > Teachers don't need to teach you how to read and write or to do basic math and by all means, don't worry about teaching history as it really happened.  What they are required to do though is to teach you that condoms are available in the nurses office, you don't need to have your parent's permission to get an abortion and the only real political solution to today's problems come from only the liberal politicians.  They are also determined to inform your kid about how nice is it that there are queers in the world.
> ...



You mean that's changed? Not from my perch of many years. Different century, maybe, but nothing else. I'm right and you're not is still the norm, regardless the subject.


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## MaggieMae (Jul 4, 2011)

JamesInFlorida said:


> chanel said:
> 
> 
> > A value-added system sounds good on paper, but how would it work?  Testing in every subject every year?  Do you know how much that would cost? How much time would be wasted? How would special education teachers be paid?
> ...



I find it hard to believe Florida schools, as a matter of policy, must hire on a first-come basis. Maybe one school district got away with that, but it's an absurd policy that should never have been allowed.

Florida recently passed a comprehensive teacher performance requirement, which is in line with the OA's "Race to the Top" changes in teacher tenure and compensation.

Florida Senate passes teacher merit-pay bill - Orlando Sentinel


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## MaggieMae (Jul 4, 2011)

spectrumc01 said:


> If a student likes the teacher, the teacher is viewed as good, and the student will excell.  If the student doesn't like the teacher, the teacher is viewed as bad and the student will not excell.  Same teacher different viewpoint.  It's not wether teachers are good or bad, but rather are students good or bad.



But who gets to judge in the end? The teacher with a passing grade or not. Students historically want teachers who are reputed to be more lax, but they may wind up not getting what they wish for. I can remember my friends a year ahead of me in HS always passed on which teachers "I hope you get" because he/she was more fun or could be easily diverted to Friday's football game instead of boring history or biology, for example. I was never lucky enough to draw one of those, but I sure as hell _learned_ history and basic biology. And it didn't hurt a bit.


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## MaggieMae (Jul 4, 2011)

linyatta said:


> from my point of view (elementary teacher for 8 years for title 1 schools), here are some of the things that aren't working;
> 
> 1.) Some teachers don't seem to like kids.  The truth is this, I don't know anyone that became a teacher because they didn't like kids.  What I've seen is that young teachers (rather new teachers), don't come in with high enough expectations for the kids.  The kids' behavior then gets out of control and the teacher, not wanting to seem like a BAD teacher, resorts to the oldest form of control, yelling and screaming.  this leads to unhappy teachers and students.  My students go to 5th grade and tell me all about their classrooms.  I was there too for a couple of years, but I made adjustments and read a book.
> 
> ...



That saddens me, and I hope you'll stick it out. Schools are losing potentially excellent teachers because they become too frustrated just fighting "the system," which unfortunately often means school districts, school administrators, unions, and general disinterest work together to contribute hugely to the problem.


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## MaggieMae (Jul 4, 2011)

JamesInFlorida said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Polk said:
> ...



Not only that, but in some states, teachers are required to maintain their credentials to teach a specific subject by taking current teaching courses in that subject, and they do that in the summer months. Some choose to work at summer jobs because of the low salary scales compared to other professions. Some actually choose to tutor and/or teach summer school. I doubt if you interviewed the average high school teacher, s/he isn't just sitting around by the pool all summer.


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## sparky (Jul 4, 2011)

probably a common misconception Maggie

and yanno, one can usually look in their town school budget to sort it out a bit, top dog and/or  supervisory get the lions share, normal teachers sqaut

i used to be amazed at the young teachers hired here, i mean, right outta college 22-23 yr olds in front of a 14 yr old hurricane 

you _couldn't _pay me enough, and we really ought to think seriously about getting what we do pay for, or quit our b*tching imho

~S~


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## PoliticalChic (Jul 4, 2011)

MaggieMae said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Big Black Dog said:
> ...



The point of the quote is that that time, that people, respected and desired knowledge.

Today?  Too many folks get their history from Oliver Stone.


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## MaggieMae (Jul 4, 2011)

PoliticalChic said:


> MaggieMae said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...



Or the Internet. I agree. But that's not to say that even books (history books) haven't skewed a few facts. My problem with the whole unwillingness to expand one's knowledge on a subject is that these days people are too quick to accept as gospel only one version, failing to look beyond especially if you find yourself saying "that just doesn't sound right..." and taking the initiative to make sure it *is* right, or not.


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## PoliticalChic (Jul 4, 2011)

MaggieMae said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > MaggieMae said:
> ...



Now, Maggie...you know how I hate to start trouble....but did you buy the nonsense about the Republicans having a racist "Southern Strategy," or did you find yourself saying "that just doesn't sound right..."?


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## whitehall (Jul 4, 2011)

PoliticalChic said:


> Sure there are good teachers...bet each of us can name three who changed our lives.
> 
> "Value-added teacher evaluation" can help identify the good ones.
> 
> ...



No offense Chicki but I bet most of us can't name a single teacher who "changed our lives". That's fiction.  We may have liked certain teachers who liked us and we hated teachers who demanded more of us and we remember teachers who knew how to artfully  place a condom on a cucumber. So much for public ed.


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## PoliticalChic (Jul 5, 2011)

whitehall said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Sure there are good teachers...bet each of us can name three who changed our lives.
> ...



Of course I wouldn't be offended by your opinion, Whitey...but I, at least, certainly can recall at least three teachers whose erudition, and attitudes, made me wish to be more like them.
I hope they would endorse my efforts.

"...we hated teachers who demanded more of us..."
Not I.

"So much for public ed."
Well, there is much to be said about this...
let me leave it as this: I have had the opportunity to attend the best schools...yet, the greater part of my education occurred after I left formal school, and continues currently.


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## MaggieMae (Jul 5, 2011)

PoliticalChic said:


> MaggieMae said:
> 
> 
> > PoliticalChic said:
> ...



 I guess I didn't pursue that because I never believed it in the first place. I'm the last one to claim that liberals don't try to use their own extremist strategies to see what will stick.


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## MaggieMae (Jul 5, 2011)

whitehall said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Sure there are good teachers...bet each of us can name three who changed our lives.
> ...



I remember Mrs. Pettis clearly, who was in charge of the "secretarial courses" in HS business majors. The standard to pass her courses were taking shorthand at 100 wpm and typing (on a manual typewriter!) at 65 wpm. She pushed her students to do better, though, because we would be the first chosen by potential employers as the _creme de la creme_. So I got certified at age 18 to take shorthand at 150 wpm and type at 100 wpm. That enabled me to actually skip the last 6 weeks of my senior year and go to work, my first job as secretary to a bank manager. So yes, Mrs. Pettis, long dead now, was a driving force and I'll forever be in her debt.


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## Cimerian (Jul 6, 2011)

MaggieMae said:


> signelect said:
> 
> 
> > Our country is in an education crisis, the administrators are paid huge fixed salaries and are not delivering.  They don't want fair evaluations because it will show just how bad things are.  We rank very near the bottom of the list in Texas and we have been throwing money at it for years.  Teachers today can't teach because they have become day care providers for parents who can not or will not do anything to education their own children.  It is far easier to blame someone else.
> ...



I would love to see education sever itself from the government.


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## chanel (Jul 9, 2011)

Are you a good witch or a bad witch? I mean teacher.


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## Modbert (Jul 9, 2011)

chanel said:


> Are you a good witch or a bad witch? I mean teacher.



So Chanel, how many kids have you told about condoms in the nurse office, and how all our solutions to today's problems will come from only Liberal politicians? 



Big Black Dog said:


> Teachers don't need to teach you how to read and write or to do basic math and by all means, don't worry about teaching history as it really happened.  What they are required to do though is to teach you that condoms are available in the nurses office, you don't need to have your parent's permission to get an abortion and the only real political solution to today's problems come from only the liberal politicians.  They are also determined to inform your kid about how nice is it that there are queers in the world.


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## chanel (Jul 9, 2011)

My students confide in me often and I offer my best advice. But my job is to teach reading and British Literature; not dating dangers. Many people may be surprised to learn that there are conservative and liberal teachers who put academics ahead of social engineering. They want the same thing for their students that they want for their own children. Crazy ain't it?


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## Modbert (Jul 9, 2011)

chanel said:


> My students confide in me often and I offer my best advice. But my job is to teach reading and British Literature; not dating dangers. Many people may be surprised to learn that there are conservative and liberal teachers who put academics ahead of social engineering. They want the same thing for their students that they want for their own children. Crazy ain't it?



Such a crazy concept! It's funny however that it's only the Conservatives I've been seeing on USMB that are making such irrational posts about teachers. I'm sure you notice it too. Must suck to see people you believe to be rational act like complete morons on issues that hit close to home.


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## random3434 (Jul 9, 2011)

chanel said:


> My students confide in me often and I offer my best advice. But my job is to teach reading and British Literature; not dating dangers. Many people may be surprised to learn that there are conservative and liberal teachers who put academics ahead of social engineering. They want the same thing for their students that they want for their own children. Crazy ain't it?



Yeah, crazy!


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## chanel (Jul 9, 2011)

Modbert said:


> chanel said:
> 
> 
> > My students confide in me often and I offer my best advice. But my job is to teach reading and British Literature; not dating dangers. Many people may be surprised to learn that there are conservative and liberal teachers who put academics ahead of social engineering. They want the same thing for their students that they want for their own children. Crazy ain't it?
> ...



Modbert - In the news, we read about loony teachers on the left who write poems about wishing the governor dead and who vandalize capitol buildings.  On the right, we read about loony teachers who draw crosses on kids' arms, and who protest for the right to "arm the teachers".  That's what makes the news.  There are over 3 MILLION public school teachers in this country and most of them are not loony. Center for Education Reform - K-12 Facts 

Go figure.  

I don't think BBD or anyone else here is a complete moron when it comes to education.  The truth is that the only people who truly understand what's going on (good and bad) are the people in the trenches.  The politicians making policy and the unions paying them off don't give a rat's ass about "education".  It's all about money and power.


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## Modbert (Jul 9, 2011)

chanel said:


> Modbert - In the news, we read about loony teachers on the left who write poems about wishing the governor dead and who vandalize capitol buildings.  On the right, we read about loony teachers who draw crosses on kids' arms, and who protest for the right to "arm the teachers".  That's what makes the news.  There are over 3 MILLION public school teachers in this country and most of them are not loony. Center for Education Reform - K-12 Facts
> 
> Go figure.
> 
> I don't think BBD or anyone else here is a complete moron when it comes to education.  The truth is that the only people who truly understand what's going on (good and bad) are the people in the trenches.  The politicians making policy and the unions paying them off don't give a rat's ass about "education".  It's all about money and power.



I know most of the school teachers in this country are not loony. However, on USMB, I constantly see massive amounts of teacher hate by some on the right. I personally think that's wrong. This isn't the first time to say the least we've been through this.


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## random3434 (Jul 10, 2011)

Modbert said:


> chanel said:
> 
> 
> > Modbert - In the news, we read about loony teachers on the left who write poems about wishing the governor dead and who vandalize capitol buildings.  On the right, we read about loony teachers who draw crosses on kids' arms, and who protest for the right to "arm the teachers".  That's what makes the news.  There are over 3 MILLION public school teachers in this country and most of them are not loony. Center for Education Reform - K-12 Facts
> ...



And I invite each and every 'Teacher Basher' to my school to come visit. Hang out for a day, and see how dedicated the teachers I work with are, and the difference we are making in our students lives.

PM me if you're interested.


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## Samson (Jul 10, 2011)

Modbert said:


> I know most of the school teachers in this country are not loony. However, on USMB, I constantly see massive amounts of teacher hate by some on the right. I personally think that's wrong. This isn't the first time to say the least we've been through this.



The "teacher hate" on "the right" is balanced with the clergy hate on "the left."


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## random3434 (Jul 10, 2011)

Samson said:


> Modbert said:
> 
> 
> > I know most of the school teachers in this country are not loony. However, on USMB, I constantly see massive amounts of teacher hate by some on the right. I personally think that's wrong. This isn't the first time to say the least we've been through this.
> ...



Is that like separation of "Church and State?"


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## chanel (Jul 10, 2011)

Ha ha EZ. I say the same thing to my family and friends who have joined the teacher bashing craze. It seems anyone who has ever "attended school" thinks they know how to run one. It's envy over summers off and job security.  But when you say "Spend a day in my shoes" they usually eat crow and say "OMG! No thank you" lol


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## random3434 (Jul 10, 2011)

chanel said:


> Ha ha EZ. I say the same thing to my family and friends who have joined the teacher bashing craze. It seems anyone who has ever "attended school" thinks they know how to run one. It's envy over summers off and job security.  But when you say "Spend a day in my shoes" they usually eat crow and say "OMG! No thank you" lol



And most of the teachers I work with have spent their summer teaching summer school, attending workshops, or going to classes to renew their license. (Which I am doing right now this summer) 

But yeah, give them a day in our classrooms, and they can see how 'easy' it is.........

I really would love for them to come visit, I am very proud of my school, my staff and our students.


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## xsited1 (Jul 10, 2011)

Modbert said:


> chanel said:
> 
> 
> > Modbert - In the news, we read about loony teachers on the left who write poems about wishing the governor dead and who vandalize capitol buildings.  On the right, we read about loony teachers who draw crosses on kids' arms, and who protest for the right to "arm the teachers".  That's what makes the news.  There are over 3 MILLION public school teachers in this country and most of them are not loony. Center for Education Reform - K-12 Facts
> ...



On USMB, I see massive amounts of public education hate (directed at piss-poor public school administrations, unions who are in it for the power only and a few bad teachers) that is interpreted by some on the Left as 'teacher hate'.  I personally think that's wrong.  This isn't the first time to say the least we've been through this.


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## MaggieMae (Jul 10, 2011)

chanel said:


> Modbert said:
> 
> 
> > chanel said:
> ...



What do you think of Arne Duncan? I don't consider him a "politician," because he's raised the hackles of the unions by promoting merit based salaries instead of tenure, and also favors more charter schools. He appears to be one of those rare critters who just wants to get the job done (or at least begin the journey to excellence).


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## Samson (Jul 10, 2011)

Echo Zulu said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > Modbert said:
> ...



It's more like stupid is as stupid does.


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## CitizenPained (Jul 10, 2011)

Hah! I'd like to see administration and PARENTS evaluated. 

You can be the best teacher in the world, but you can only work so hard to fix classrooms without supplies, gang bangers, parents who smoke crack, principals who expect you to deal with cussing teens and fistfights, kids who can't read or speak English (and I'm an ESL teacher!)...ahh...yeah.

Too bad we can't fire the cause of the problem.


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## CitizenPained (Jul 10, 2011)

MaggieMae said:


> chanel said:
> 
> 
> > Modbert said:
> ...



Yeah, but if Charters can pick who their kids are, the bad ones go to public schools, and guess which teachers will suffer? Uh-huh. The ones who are evaluated on that merit-based pay. The ones that are still part of the teacher's union.

Ones like me.


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## Samson (Jul 11, 2011)

CitizenPained said:


> Hah! I'd like to see administration and PARENTS evaluated.
> 
> You can be the best teacher in the world, but you can only work so hard to fix classrooms without supplies, gang bangers, parents who smoke crack, principals who expect you to deal with cussing teens and fistfights, kids who can't read or speak English (and I'm an ESL teacher!)...ahh...yeah.
> 
> Too bad we can't fire the cause of the problem.



Public School would be much better without the Public.


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## Jackson (Jul 11, 2011)

midcan5 said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > Sure there are good teachers...bet each of us can name three who changed our lives.
> ...



The study is right.  Two years of failed teaching in the formative years can disrupt a child's school career forever.  Just where are they supposed to get their basic math and reading skills?  If there us no intervention and the child is continually passed on without foundational skills, they are the eight graders who cannot read.  Science is out of the question.  Finishing highschool is a non starter.  Get rid of anything that protects those teachers...Unions.


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## chanel (Jul 12, 2011)

Outstanding article on the VAM:



> In 1966, a groundbreaking government studythe Coleman Reportfirst identified a one-third in-school factors, two-thirds family characteristics ratio to explain variations in student achievement. Since then researchers have endlessly tried to refine or refute the findings. Education scholar Richard Rothstein described their results: No analyst has been able to attribute less than two-thirds of the variation in achievement among schools to the family characteristics of their students (Class and Schools, 2004). Factors such as neighborhood environment give still more weight to what goes on outside school.





> In a 2009 report to the U.S. Department of Education, the Board on Testing and Assessment of the National Research Council wrote, Even in pilot projects, VAM estimates of teacher effectiveness that are based on data for a single class of students should not be used to make operational decisions because such estimates are far too unstable to be considered fair or reliable.
> 
> John Ewing, president of Math for America (which promotes better math education in public high schools), describes the VAM phenomenon in Mathematical Intimidation: Driven by the Data (Notices of the American Mathematical Society, May 2011):
> 
> _People recognize that tests are an imperfect measure of educational success, but when sophisticated mathematics is applied, they believe the imperfections go away by some mathematical magic. But this is not magic. What really happens is that the mathematics is used to disguise the problems and intimidate people into ignoring thema modern, mathematical version of the Emperors New Clothes...._



Firing Line: The Grand Coalition Against Teachers | Truthout


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## editec (Jul 12, 2011)

One can hardly expect that schools, where society is coming undone, will NOT also become undone.

Blaming unions and teachers for the downfall of education in a society that is going down is fairly typical of right wing know-nothing nonsense that some of the RW trolls like to post here.


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## chanel (Jul 12, 2011)

Schools are a microcosm of the larger community.


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## Samson (Jul 12, 2011)

editec said:


> One can hardly expect that schools, where society is coming undone, will NOT also become undone.
> 
> Blaming unions and teachers for the downfall of education in a society that is going down is fairly typical of right wing know-nothing nonsense that some of the RW trolls like to post here.



Teachers are not allowed to collectively bargain in all states.

Perhaps we would do well to compare those states where it is allowed with those it is illegal:

Texas
N. Carolina
S. Carolina
Georgia
Virginia

Actually, this comparison has already been done with Wisconsin (unhappily, I cannot cut-and-paste from the website):

5 states that outlaw collective bargaining for teachers all rank below 44th in test scores, [ Barf ]

however, the conclusion is that how well a state's public school graduates do on ACT/SAT tests has very little, if anything, to do with whether or its teachers can legally collectively bargain.


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## MaggieMae (Jul 12, 2011)

CitizenPained said:


> MaggieMae said:
> 
> 
> > chanel said:
> ...



I think Arne's (and the administration's) take on charter schools is to build more, but with a partnered public and private funding endeavor and phase out the most inefficient (and dilapidated) public schools which would be too costly to fix. Currently, just as with public schools, there are good _and_ bad charter schools.


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## chanel (Jul 12, 2011)

Exactly Maggie, and despite being a proponent of public education, I do support charters and vouchers for students in failing schools.  It will do NOTHING to improve public education, and could hurt it, but I can only feel empathy for those frightened parents and kids who truly want to learn.  It's may be a band aid; but a necessary one for a gushing wound.  NO ONE nows how to turn around violent, inner city schools.  The only "solution" is to let those that wish to, get the hell out.


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## CitizenPained (Jul 13, 2011)

All it does is create corporate and private interest education that ends up making our schools even more segregated. :/

And it really does bleed taxpayer money. In Denver, charters don't last that long.


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## CitizenPained (Jul 13, 2011)

disclaimer: I send my son to a private school.


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