# Iraq is imploding.  Should we lend air support or wash our hands?



## Remodeling Maidiac (Jun 12, 2014)

The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige? 
Seems strange to me that we would spend all the money & lives just to let it fall in a matter of weeks/months.


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## healthmyths (Jun 12, 2014)

Grampa Murked U said:


> The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
> Seems strange to me that we would spend all the money & lives just to let it fall in a matter of weeks/months.



Remember these words from two members of the current administration that helped encourage these terrorists and in doing so did 
what this Harvard study showed:

  Senator Kerry (now Secretary of State)  (D)  "American soldiers going into the homes of Iraqis in the
        dead of night, terrorizing kids and children."
        Senator Obama (Now President) said  "troops are air-raiding villages and killing civilians,"

This Harvard study found here THE "EMBOLDENMENT EFFECT"

asked: "Are insurgents in Iraq emboldened by voices in the news media *expressing dissent *or calling for troop withdrawals from Iraq?

       The short answer is YES!!! according to Radha Iyengar, a Robert Wood Johnson Scholar in health policy
       research at Harvard and  Jonathan Monten of the Belfer Center at the university's Kennedy School of Government.

 STUDY ABSTRACT
Are insurgents affected by information on US casualty sensitivity? Using data on attacks and variation in access to international news across Iraqi provinces,  we identify an emboldenment effect by comparing the rate of insurgent attacks in areas with  higher and lower access to information about *U.S news after public statements critical of the war. (wouldn't you conclude the next president accusing the US military of methodically and systematically air raiding villages killing civilians.. dissent???)* We find in periods after a spike in war-critical statements, insurgent attacks increases by 5-10 percent.


So you tell me who helped this situation???


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## Remodeling Maidiac (Jun 12, 2014)

I have mixed feelings on this. 

On one hand the middle east is a cesspool of savages and I just wish they would all kill each other off. 

On the other hand do we stand by and let these savages gain control of a nation from which they would gain military assets to use against us?

Ignoring them won't make them leave us alone so whats the solution?


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## Plasmaball (Jun 12, 2014)

Nope fuck them. ..they wanted us out...we shouldnt have been there..This is what was said would happen when bush when in...


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## edthecynic (Jun 12, 2014)

Grampa Murked U said:


> The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
> Seems strange to me that we would spend all the money & lives just to let it fall in a matter of weeks/months.



As the GOP always says, how are we going to pay for it?
How much blood and treasure are we going to piss away on an Iraqi "government" that can't function as a government, an Iraqi "army" that can't function as an army, and an Iraqi "police force" that can't function as a police force?


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## BlindBoo (Jun 12, 2014)

If Congress wants the President to use military force again in Iraq let them vote on a resolution supporting President Obama and giving him the resources necessary.


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## Little-Acorn (Jun 12, 2014)

Any reason to think the liberals won't just pull us out before the war's over, again?


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## tinydancer (Jun 12, 2014)

All they are asking for is drone strikes. This is absolutely appalling that none in the West are helping Iraq defend itself from ISIS.


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## Dot Com (Jun 12, 2014)

This is what happens when religious sectarianism trumps nationalism. Not something the military can solve old man.


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## martybegan (Jun 12, 2014)

Grampa Murked U said:


> The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
> Seems strange to me that we would spend all the money & lives just to let it fall in a matter of weeks/months.



I say just arm the crap out of the Kurds and let them handle it. They are the only ethnic group in the area that like us anyway.


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## BlindBoo (Jun 12, 2014)

healthmyths said:


> Grampa Murked U said:
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> > The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
> ...



Ah the same out of context (lies) quotes that healthmyth continuously posts.


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## tinydancer (Jun 12, 2014)

Plasmaball said:


> Nope fuck them. ..they wanted us out...we shouldnt have been there..This is what was said would happen when bush when in...



Hey Obama's administration released the son of a murdering bitch Baghdadi in 2009 and have allowed him to develop an army of 12,000 in Syria.

Obama owns this crew of freaking terrorists. He wanted Assad toppled so badly he turned a blind eye to AQ in Syria.

And now the Ghost and his band of blood letting monsters are beheading their way to Baghdad. All this blood is on Obama's hands.


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## Remodeling Maidiac (Jun 12, 2014)

Dot Com said:


> This is what happens when religious sectarianism trumps nationalism. Not something the military can solve old man.



I have no illusions that we can fix/stop their problems. However if minimal air strikes could buy enough time for them to get serious about solving their own problems now that they can see their own demise I wouldn't be opposed to it.


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## Plasmaball (Jun 12, 2014)

tinydancer said:


> Plasmaball said:
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> > Nope fuck them. ..they wanted us out...we shouldnt have been there..This is what was said would happen when bush when in...
> ...



Hey you've posted this a hundred times already...
He owns nothing...shut up


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## Mac1958 (Jun 12, 2014)

Grampa Murked U said:


> I have mixed feelings on this.
> 
> On one hand the middle east is a cesspool of savages and I just wish they would all kill each other off.
> 
> ...




I appreciate your honesty regarding your mixed emotions.  Life is nuance, yet few people here will admit that a given issue isn't simple and black & white.

We have to learn to stop sticking our nose in the business of others.  Example after example should be showing us that we're not very good at considering the negative ramifications of our actions.

At the same time - we've already stuck our nose into Iraq and I guess I wouldn't blame Obama if he blew some of these assholes away.  

I just wish we'd stop creating messes like this, those that lead to two bad fucking choices.

.


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## Little-Acorn (Jun 12, 2014)

Does this mean that their pronouncements that they wanted us out, are no longer "operative"?


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## chikenwing (Jun 12, 2014)

BlindBoo said:


> healthmyths said:
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No lies and how is "we have lost the war" OUT OF CONTEXT. in other words you really have no argument.


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Jun 12, 2014)

Grampa Murked U said:


> The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
> Seems strange to me that we would spend all the money & lives just to let it fall in a matter of weeks/months.



We should respect any agreements, if any, to provide assistance - but nothing more.


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## BlindBoo (Jun 12, 2014)

chikenwing said:


> BlindBoo said:
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Jesus fucking Chryst, you can't even get the out of context quote right.  "..the war is lost" 

Full quote.

"As long as we follow the President's path in Iraq, *the war is lost*. But there is still a chance to change course and we must change course.


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## Remodeling Maidiac (Jun 12, 2014)

Listening to Obama presser now. He makes it sound likely that he may decide to lend some military help.


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## jasonnfree (Jun 12, 2014)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Grampa Murked U said:
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> > The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
> ...



We could send bushcheney there to help out.  They created the problem to begin with.


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## J.E.D (Jun 12, 2014)

Lend minimal assistance, but no occupation. We're out of there. We shouldn't have gone there in the first place.


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## JakeStarkey (Jun 12, 2014)

What we do will be up to the admin, which is not listening to failed neo-con leaders of the past.


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## Peach (Jun 12, 2014)

Little-Acorn said:


> Any reason to think the liberals won't just pull us out before the war's over, again?



Bush was not "liberal" He abandoned the fight against  al Qaeda to wander into Iraq. The world is paying the price for it now, we may again.


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## Peach (Jun 12, 2014)

Grampa Murked U said:


> Listening to Obama presser now. He makes it sound likely that he may decide to lend some military help.


 ISI is the product of many years of infighting, and the invasion, which gave evidence to the extremists. we cannot put this on IGNORE, you can ignore me, but not the dangers created by prior actions.


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## tinydancer (Jun 12, 2014)

Grampa Murked U said:


> Dot Com said:
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> > This is what happens when religious sectarianism trumps nationalism. Not something the military can solve old man.
> ...



Apparently the requests date back to last November. The drone strikes could have headed off at the pass this nightmare of AQ troops being able to take over Mosul and Tikrit.

I'm not sure if you know this but ISIS not only has released all the terrorists and criminals imprisoned in those two cities but they have raided the banks.

They've got over $425 million at last count. Holy toledo!


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## Ibentoken (Jun 12, 2014)

Blow them away.


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## bodecea (Jun 12, 2014)

Grampa Murked U said:


> The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
> Seems strange to me that we would spend all the money & lives just to let it fall in a matter of weeks/months.



Let it go...we broke it...but oh well.  Hopefully, they will end up as friends like Viet Nam is about 30 years down the road.


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## tinydancer (Jun 12, 2014)

Peach said:


> Little-Acorn said:
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> > Any reason to think the liberals won't just pull us out before the war's over, again?
> ...



Why do you keep using the same lying talking point? It's been pointed out to you  numerous times that NATO troops successfully held the fort for you in Afghanistan. And one more freaking time, you didn't pull all American troops out. 

For crying out loud. You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts.


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## Katzndogz (Jun 12, 2014)

We should do nothing.   We do not have capable leadership.  obama leads like he's in a hamster ball.  A bad leader is much worse than no leadership at all.   The United States has a bad leader.


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## Rotagilla (Jun 12, 2014)

Grampa Murked U said:


> Dot Com said:
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> > This is what happens when religious sectarianism trumps nationalism. Not something the military can solve old man.
> ...



They weren't able to "solve their own problems" the whole time we were there in force.

They have had over a thousand years to "solve their problems". 

No more wars for israel.
Let them all sink or swim on their own


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## Remodeling Maidiac (Jun 12, 2014)

bodecea said:


> Grampa Murked U said:
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> > The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
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Wishful thinking. These religious nuts have been at it since the beginning of time.


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## tinydancer (Jun 12, 2014)

Plasmaball said:


> tinydancer said:
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No way am I going to shut up about a President who would allow AQ to build up an army of 12,000 on his freaking watch. 

While he and Kerry and others wanted Assad removed from power so bad he could taste it, Baghdadi was amassing an army and a fortune to arm it.

While Obama and Kerry and others were lying thru their teeth that this was a "Syrian Spring" anyone with a lick of sense and a brain was finding out that there was no such person as a _Syrian rebel._

All freaking lies from this White House aka Home of the Whopper.

They were paid mercenaries and terrorists trying to take out Assad. True mother trucking story.

And Obama has allowed ISIS and Levant to flourish and now they are beheading their way to Baghdad.

The blood of Iraqis is on his hands. He owns it. And now the bastard won't even give air support.


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## Plasmaball (Jun 12, 2014)

tinydancer said:


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Now it's syria.....move those goal posts....end of the day it's not our problem.
I really really hate neocons. .


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## Ravi (Jun 12, 2014)

Grampa Murked U said:


> The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
> Seems strange to me that we would spend all the money & lives just to let it fall in a matter of weeks/months.



We broke it. Thank you President Bush.

Hey, we should send Dubya and Cheney over there to run the place.


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## bripat9643 (Jun 12, 2014)

Grampa Murked U said:


> The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
> Seems strange to me that we would spend all the money & lives just to let it fall in a matter of weeks/months.



So long as Obama gets the blame, I couldn't care less if Iraq implodes.  A Democrat will not get elected for the next 40 years if that happens.


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## NYcarbineer (Jun 12, 2014)

Anyone remember the Sunni Awakening?


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## NYcarbineer (Jun 12, 2014)

tinydancer said:


> Plasmaball said:
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> > Nope fuck them. ..they wanted us out...we shouldnt have been there..This is what was said would happen when bush when in...
> ...



You're starting to sound dumber than Katzndogz.


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## Siete (Jun 12, 2014)

Powell said if you go, you own it ...


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## tinydancer (Jun 12, 2014)

Katzndogz said:


> We should do nothing.   We do not have capable leadership.  obama leads like he's in a hamster ball.  A bad leader is much worse than no leadership at all.   The United States has a bad leader.



Oh, Obama was too busy being a strutting banty rooster over Crimea. Him and Kerry chest thumping over the Ukraine and looking like bloody fools drawing another stupid red line in the sand.

Meanwhile back at the Ranch, the Iraqi Ranch ISIS and Levant have been growing in leaps and bounds forming a terrorist army that makes Al Qaeda look like wimps.

Aye carumba! How did America elect this wanker not once but twice? He's so inept it's unfreaking real.


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## dilloduck (Jun 12, 2014)

tinydancer said:


> Katzndogz said:
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> > We should do nothing.   We do not have capable leadership.  obama leads like he's in a hamster ball.  A bad leader is much worse than no leadership at all.   The United States has a bad leader.
> ...



The reactionaries hated Bush so we got Obama.


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## chikenwing (Jun 12, 2014)

Ravi said:


> Grampa Murked U said:
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> > The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
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6 years current leader has been in place 6 years,when will you people hold him accountable for his time also.

Whats really pathetic,is just a short time ago,Obama had ended the Iraq war ,had the bad guys on the ropes and all was well according to the propaganda machine,now its not,but its still Bush,you people are a sad excuse for humans.


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## bodecea (Jun 12, 2014)

Grampa Murked U said:


> The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
> Seems strange to me that we would spend all the money & lives just to let it fall in a matter of weeks/months.



We broke it in the first place.   But we cannot go back and refix it.  Sorry.  Never should have gone in.   Period.


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## tinydancer (Jun 12, 2014)

NYcarbineer said:


> tinydancer said:
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Piss off. I'm telling the truth. How many links do you want so you can learn about this rock star jihadist?

Here from one of your left wing rags.

*The true heir to Osama bin Laden may be ISIS leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, wrote The Washington Posts David Ignatius.

 He is more violent, more virulent, more anti-American, a senior U.S. intelligence official told the columnist, while the cautious and uncharismatic Zawahiri is not coping well. 

In fact, Baghdadi is now recruiting fighters from other Zawahiri affiliates, including al-Qaedas Yemen branch and the Somalia-based al-Shabab.*

How ISIS leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi became the world?s most powerful jihadist leader - The Washington Post

And a nice little profile on the terrorist you let go in 2009. Again from your left wing rag.

*Whereas Baghdadi has done an amazing amount  he has captured cities, he has mobilized huge amounts of people, he is killing ruthlessly throughout Iraq and Syria. If you were a guy who wanted action, you would go with Baghdadi.*


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## EriktheRed (Jun 12, 2014)

I remember this little nugget from way back when:




If you go to the YouTube site, they have comments disabled. Can't imagine why, can you?


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## Rotagilla (Jun 12, 2014)

tinydancer said:


> Aye carumba! How did America elect this wanker not once but twice? He's so inept it's unfreaking real.



Look at it this way.
He isn't the problem, really.
Whatever obama wrecks, we could probably fix. He'll be gone eventually. 

The problem is the kind of people who would vote for him twice. They aren't going anywhere.

You get the kind of government you deserve.


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## EriktheRed (Jun 12, 2014)

bripat9643 said:


> Grampa Murked U said:
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> > The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
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Not to worry, stupid. Enough of the country knows the Shrubster caused this shit. Have fun in 2016.


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## Skull Pilot (Jun 12, 2014)

Iraq was more stable when Hussein was in power.

We did nothing but make it worse for the people of that country.

And we wonder why they hat us.


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## Pop23 (Jun 12, 2014)

martybegan said:


> Grampa Murked U said:
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> > The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
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That was and has always been the answer.


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## Siete (Jun 12, 2014)

NYcarbineer said:


> tinydancer said:
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starting to?


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## Avatar4321 (Jun 12, 2014)

This is precisely what the Twelvers have been trying to stir up in Iraq.


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## Katzndogz (Jun 12, 2014)

tinydancer said:


> Plasmaball said:
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Air support!   A couple of days ago a unit of Americans asked for air support, they got it, the helicopters bombed the Americans killing five.   American air support isn't what it used to be.   obama is on the side of al quaeda.


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## bripat9643 (Jun 12, 2014)

EriktheRed said:


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After AQ takes over Iraq they'll know Obama left them to twist in the wind.


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## tinydancer (Jun 12, 2014)

Siete said:


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Put up the proof that I am wrong about ISIS, Levant, Baghdadi or any thing I post on USMB.

If not shut the fuck up.


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## Rotagilla (Jun 12, 2014)

EriktheRed said:


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"shrubster"


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## rdean (Jun 12, 2014)

Grampa Murked U said:


> The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
> Seems strange to me that we would spend all the money & lives just to let it fall in a matter of weeks/months.



That's the problem.  Republicans see everyone they are against as "terrorists".  If they weren't such education tards, the Middle East wouldn't be in the mess it's in.

Iran is Shiite.

Iraq was controlled by a Sunni minority.  True, al Qaeda is Sunni, but Bin Laden and Saddam were enemies because both wanted to be leaders of the Sunni.

When Bush invaded Iraq, he opened the doors for al Qaeda to enter Iraq.  Worse, in his tarded ignorance and refusal of any help from experts in the Muslim Religion, he installed a mostly Shiite government which is why the Iraqi government is such close friends with Iran. 

The Sunni, who had been in charge of Iraq for the last 13 centuries were disenfranchised by the US installed and backed Shiite government.  

Now they are fighting back, taking back territory they believe is theirs with the help of al Qaeda, the organization that attacked the US when headed by Bin Laden, the guy Republicans let go and stopped looking for.

In their ignorance and shallow bully minds, Republicans couldn't have made a bigger disaster than if they had planned it out all in advance.  

They turned over the apple cart.
Fucked over millions of people (not even counting what they let happen to Iraqi Christians)
Ignored al Qaeda
Let Bin Laden go
Created the worst possible government

Even helped the Iraqi's put this into their constitution:

Article 2:

First: Islam is the official religion of the State and it is a fundamental source of legislation:

A. No law that contradicts the established provisions of Islam may be established.

Full Text of Iraqi Constitution

In fact, the ONLY thing I can think of they did to help Iraq was to make sure it had a single payer health care system, something they won't allow here.

And you wonder why thinking people are angry at the GOP????


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## Sallow (Jun 12, 2014)

BlindBoo said:


> If Congress wants the President to use military force again in Iraq let them vote on a resolution supporting President Obama and giving him the resources necessary.



Yup.

They should stop sitting on their fucking hands waiting for Obama to do something, so they can condemn him for it.


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## tinydancer (Jun 12, 2014)

bripat9643 said:


> EriktheRed said:
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This is not going to end well. The request for drone strikes go back to last November Iraqis as they fight to the death in Kabul will never forget. And if that son of a bitch Baghdadi takes Baghdad and all its riches only the good Lord knows how bad it's going to be.


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## Remodeling Maidiac (Jun 12, 2014)

rdean said:


> Grampa Murked U said:
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> > The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
> ...



When you kill innocent men, women and children you are a terrorist no matter what the looney left says


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## Synthaholic (Jun 12, 2014)

Grampa Murked U said:


> The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
> Seems strange to me that we would spend all the money & lives just to let it fall in a matter of weeks/months.



'Terrorists'?

They are actually the Sunni population that has been in Iraq for 13 centuries.  It's the Iranian-backed Shiite minority government which was installed by Bush who should be sent packing.

They may be calling themselves al Qaeda, but these aren't the people from bin Laden's group.


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## B. Kidd (Jun 12, 2014)

We arm Jihadists on the Syrian side and bomb 'em on the Iraqi side. Now thatz what I call supply and demand!


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## Freewill (Jun 12, 2014)

That we are even discussing this is amazing.  Iraq, like it or not, is our ally and when allies call the US should respond within reason.  No different then if NATO calls and asks us to bomb Serbia for them and we do.  No different then when be bombed the crap out of Libya or Syria.  They are our allies, we are obligated to help.  Who is going to trust the US if we let down our allies?


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## Ravi (Jun 12, 2014)

chikenwing said:


> Ravi said:
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Obama didn't invade the wrong country. That was Bush.


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## Freewill (Jun 12, 2014)

Synthaholic said:


> Grampa Murked U said:
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> > The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
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What were the elections all about?


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## Siete (Jun 12, 2014)

tinydancer said:


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proof to you is tantamount to water on a duck, I'll gladly leave you to your own design


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## Katzndogz (Jun 12, 2014)

tinydancer said:


> bripat9643 said:
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It will end very well for obama and the democrats.  The Islamic fanatics will have enormous power and be able to go wherever they want, do whatever they want.   They are neither white nor Christian so in the democrats' minds they are the doing exactly what democrats would do if only they had the guts to stand up and do it.

Democrats hate whites and Christians so much, that the sacrifice of the middle east and Africa is worth it if muslims can get rid of the hated enemy.


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## Peach (Jun 12, 2014)

They are neither white nor Christian so in the democrats' minds they are the doing exactly what democrats would do if only they had the guts to stand up and do it.
______________________________________________
Obviously, this increases the idea Republicans today are racist.


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## tinydancer (Jun 12, 2014)

rdean said:


> Grampa Murked U said:
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> > The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
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What an ignorant and uninformed LYING mother fucking post AGAIN rdean. Can you get your head out of Obama's asshole long enough to recognize that the Sunnis aren't regaining the country with the help of AQ.

THEY ARE A BRANCH OF FREAKING AQ you idiot.  ISIS makes the rest of AQ look like boy scouts you moron. 

And Obama owns this crew. He allowed Baghdadi their leader to be released in 2009.

And because he wanted Assad toppled so desperately he has allowed Bagdhadi and ISIS to form a 12,000 and growing terrorist army.

Obama has the blood of every Iraqi they slaughter as they behead their way to Bagdhad.


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## Rotagilla (Jun 12, 2014)

Freewill said:


> That we are even discussing this is amazing.  Iraq, like it or not, is our ally and when allies call the US should respond within reason.  No different then if NATO calls and asks us to bomb Serbia for them and we do.  No different then when be bombed the crap out of Libya or Syria.  They are our allies, we are obligated to help.  Who is going to trust the US if we let down our allies?



Check out how the u.s. installed and propped up the shah of iran, as brutal a dictator as any in that region..

Check out what happened in iran to our embassy when he fled his country for the u.s.

After we got the hostages back, we couldn't give Saddam enough help killing iranians.Weapons, intel, satellite info...
Sure he was a brutal monster...but he was OUR monster and as long as he was killing iranians for us, he was cool.

Russia invades afghan...we support the mujahideen with weapons, material and satellite info...sure they're brutal and backwards but hey...they're killing russians..let's arm them.

Saddam invades kuwait...a place he had a legitimate claim to, actually. 

Prior to WWI there was no iraq,iran,kuwait, etc..it was all Persia. 
After the war the winners carved the area up with no regard to historical boundaries, loyalties or incompatible religious groups.

So we attack Saddam to "protect" kuwait..kuwait is not a democracy..kuwait is an emirate with civil rights violations and no womens suffrage...but we just HAD to further destabilize the area..


We invade iraq on trumped up BS WMD/AL Qaeda/regime change... We all know how well that went/is going.

The mujahideen we armed, the iranians we supported then abandoned, the afghanis we helped, the iraqis we double crossed....all hate our guts for our constant destabilizing and meddling.

Nobody in the ME trusts us. No wonder.


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## tinydancer (Jun 12, 2014)

Siete said:


> tinydancer said:
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You can't find any proof to negate the facts I have put up? T'is alright. You wouldn't be able to. I never lie. I don't have to. Truth is my street howitzer. And I always support my proofs with links.


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## Synthaholic (Jun 12, 2014)

Little-Acorn said:


> Any reason to think the liberals won't just pull us out before the war's over, again?


Get a clue, retard.


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## tinydancer (Jun 12, 2014)

Synthaholic said:


> Grampa Murked U said:
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> > The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
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They are terrorists. Make no mistake about it. I've been watching the spin develop on different lib boards trying to do damage control and find a way to blame Bush for Obama's mega fuck up allowing ISIS and Baghdadi to form a terrorist army. 

You can't. Here ya go. Chew on it. From your liberal rag....

*The true heir to Osama bin Laden may be ISIS leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, wrote The Washington Posts David Ignatius. He is more violent, more virulent, more anti-American, a senior U.S. intelligence official told the columnist, while the cautious and uncharismatic Zawahiri is not coping well. In fact, Baghdadi is now recruiting fighters from other Zawahiri affiliates, including al-Qaedas Yemen branch and the Somalia-based al-Shabab.*



Obama let this terrorist go in 2009. 

* Whereas Baghdadi has done an amazing amount  he has captured cities, he has mobilized huge amounts of people, he is killing ruthlessly throughout Iraq and Syria. If you were a guy who wanted action, you would go with Baghdadi.*

How ISIS leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi became the world?s most powerful jihadist leader - The Washington Post


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## Synthaholic (Jun 12, 2014)

tinydancer said:


> All they are asking for is drone strikes. This is absolutely appalling that none in the West are helping Iraq defend itself from ISIS.


Why is it the West's responsibility?  Let the Saudis launch air strikes.  Or the Egyptians.  Or the Turks.  Or Jordon.  Or Kuwait.

Although, they should launch air strikes against the Shiite minority government.


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## Synthaholic (Jun 12, 2014)

tinydancer said:


> Plasmaball said:
> 
> 
> > Nope fuck them. ..they wanted us out...we shouldnt have been there..This is what was said would happen when bush when in...
> ...


I don't think you're stupid enough to believe your own bullshit.

I may be wrong!


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## Ravi (Jun 12, 2014)

tinydancer said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > Grampa Murked U said:
> ...



Guy was never in captivity therefore he couldn't have been let go. Are you hitting the sauce?


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## tinydancer (Jun 12, 2014)

Synthaholic said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> > Plasmaball said:
> ...



#1 Baghdadi was in American custody. Obama let him go in 2009. Well known brutal mega terrorist.

#2 ISIS/Levant control a nice chunk of Syria. AQ look like pussies compared to this spin off and has actually tried to distance themselves from ISIS/Levant.

#3 Because Obama has been desperate to have Assad ripped from power he has allowed Baghdadi to form a 12,000 plus strong terrorist army who are beheading their way to Baghdad.

Obama owns this.


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## BlindBoo (Jun 12, 2014)

chikenwing said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > Grampa Murked U said:
> ...



The blame goes to Iraq. If they had agreed to the Status of Forces agreement both Presidents offered them, the US would still be a presence in the country.  Now it looks like their Civil War is entering a new phase.  

I say for each plane load of bombs we drop on the Sunnis, the Shiites pay us with a cut rate crude oil contract.


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## Ibentoken (Jun 12, 2014)

"Iraq is one of Obama's great achievements."  
Joe Biden, 2010.


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## Synthaholic (Jun 12, 2014)

Skull Pilot said:


> Iraq was more stable when Hussein was in power.
> 
> We did nothing but make it worse for the people of that country.
> 
> And we wonder why they hat us.


but...but...rape rooms!!!1!!!!


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## Synthaholic (Jun 12, 2014)

tinydancer said:


> Siete said:
> 
> 
> > NYcarbineer said:
> ...


None of them are from the al Qaeda group who attacked us on 9/11.


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## PaintMyHouse (Jun 12, 2014)

The best thing we can do for Iraq, nothing.  It's what we should have done in the first place.


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## Politico (Jun 12, 2014)

Little-Acorn said:


> Any reason to think the liberals won't just pull us out before the war's over, again?



Sigh we pulled out per our agreement made years before. Sad how short people's memories are. Let me help you with history. Obammy hoping no one remembered he was against being in Iraq.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXzmXy226po]2002 Barack Obama Interview: Against Iraq - YouTube[/ame]

asked if we could stay. They told us don't let the door hit you on the way out. 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLFTQTKBL2E]Obama: U.S. Troops Will Exit Iraq by Dec. - YouTube[/ame]

So again not realizing video doesn't go away, he claimed he ended the war that was agreed to be ended years before.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1sxdXsffYE]President Obama declares an end to Iraq war - YouTube[/ame]

So we are done. Mission accomplished!



tinydancer said:


> All they are asking for is drone strikes. This is absolutely appalling that none in the West are helping Iraq defend itself from ISIS.



I don't care if they are asking for firecrackers. The little prick doesn't need to be dragging us into another war that is none of our business.


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## Synthaholic (Jun 12, 2014)

Grampa Murked U said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> > Grampa Murked U said:
> ...


To you they are innocent.  To them, they are the enemy.


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## Synthaholic (Jun 12, 2014)

Freewill said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > Grampa Murked U said:
> ...



Theirs or ours?


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## Synthaholic (Jun 12, 2014)

tinydancer said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> > Grampa Murked U said:
> ...



You are wrong and rdean is absolutely correct.


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## Steinlight (Jun 12, 2014)

Saddam, miss him yet?

Honestly, what a waste of blood and treasure that war was, we got absolutely nothing out of this pointless quagmire(except a trillion in debt, thousands of americans dead, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis debt, and a demoralized fighting force that is spread far too thin) . We didn't even get oil out of the deal(we fought a war to give the Chinese cheap oil).

And as if the situation couldn't get any worse, President Noble Peace Prize had the bright idea to give Al Qaeda weapons in Syria(because Assad was the new Hitler), and when these guys lost in Syria they have just decided to overthrow the puppet state we spent a decade establishing.

It comes full circle, President Bush got rid of Saddam because Al Qaeda(despite the fact Saddam opposed Al Qaeda and had nothing to do with 911), now the Smartest President Ever put Al Qaeda into a position to run the country with the second largest oil supply in the middle east.

It's dark comedy is what it is.


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## regent (Jun 12, 2014)

It's the American people I feel sorry for, all those lives and money and this. To restore the American people's morale, we should continually play on TV Bush's carrier landing and his Mission Accomplished sign. Great morale builder.


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## tinydancer (Jun 12, 2014)

Ravi said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...



One of the worst things about the US media these days is they lie, or cover up or just don't give the American public real news so that individuals can be armed with facts and not spin. 

So I hate to burst your bubble Ravi....

*ABU DUA: IMPRISONED BY THE US, THE MAN WHO HATES THE WEST MORE THAN OSAMA BIN LADEN 

The shadowy leader of thousands of Islamist fighters in Syria and Iraq, many of them Westerners, appears to be surpassing Al-Qaeda chief Ayman al-Zawahri as the worlds most influential jihadist.
*

They call him _The Ghost._

*WHY DID THE US RELEASE BAGHDADI RELEASED FROM BOCCA CAMP?

Baghdadi has a $10million bounty on his head by the US that is only second to that of Al-Qaeda chief Ayman al-Zawahri at $25million.

He was taken as a prisoner of the Americans in Camp Bucca between 2005 and 2009 - it was here that one of the only two photos know to be in existence was taken of him.

It is unknown if he came radicalised during his time at the camp where many al-Qaeda commanders were held or if he was already a radical who emerged after the 2003 US invasion.

A US intelligence report from 2005, states: 'Abu Duaa was connected to the intimidation, torture and murder of local civilians in Qaim', says a Pentagon document.

'He would kidnap individuals or entire families, accuse them, pronounce sentence and then publicly execute them.'

It is therefore unclear why he was released in 2009.

He may have been one of thousands of suspected insurgents granted amnesty as the US began its draw down in Iraq or he may be under several names.

'We either arrested or killed a man of that name about half a dozen times, he is like a wraith who keeps reappearing, and I am not sure where fact and fiction meet,' said Lieutenant-General Sir Graeme Lamb, a former British special forces commander who helped US efforts against al-Qaeda in Iraq told The Telegraph.

'There are those who want to promote the idea that this man is invincible, when it may actually be several people using the same nom de guerre.'

*

Tikrit falls to Islamist terrorists | Mail Online


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## BlindBoo (Jun 12, 2014)

Katzndogz said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> > Plasmaball said:
> ...





An American fighter jet mistakenly dropped at least one laser-guided bomb on Canadian forces in Afghanistan during a live-fire training exercise today.

'Friendly fire' kills Canadian soldiers | Mail Online 

Friendly fire has been a part of warfare as long as it has existed. However, in more recent times, the growing destructiveness of modern weapons has contributed to making friendly fire more devastating than ever before. Despite the concurrent advance of IFF (Identification Friend or Foe) technology and other gadgets to reduce the likelihood of this, simple human error means friendly fire is a problem that is unlikely to disappear. This list looks at eight modern examples of friendly fire  their causes, and their consequences.

8 Worst Cases of Friendly Fire - Listverse

What Really Happened To Pat Tillman? - CBS News


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## Ravi (Jun 12, 2014)

tinydancer said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > tinydancer said:
> ...


^Made up BS.


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## tinydancer (Jun 12, 2014)

Synthaholic said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> > rdean said:
> ...



It's not a Sunni insurgency no matter how you try to spin it. You're looking like an asshole. Look I monitor lib boards. I knew the talking point bullshit before the first post went up that this was now a civil war Sunni against Shia and of course Bush was to blame.



Blatant lie. But what else should I expect from left wing loons. You really should educate yourself on how Baghdadi has amassed an army of terrorists. Because if they take over Iraq, whoa geeze red lines in the sand won't help the planet. 

*cough* they're definitely more dangerous than global warming. And if the Shias feel that the west has abandoned them expect home growns in droves to exact retribution for America and others deserting them in their time of need. 

Now ISIS/Levant is a terrorist organization that used to be under the umbrella of AQ. You know Al Qaeda that Obama is on record saying that they are decimated and on the run.

Freaking delusional man you've got at the WH.

*'They lined the streets with the decapitated heads of police and soldiers': Iraqi refugee reveals the horrors of the jihadi takeover as Baghdad vows to fight back
*

ISIS militants march on Baghdad with a bullet in the head for anyone who gets in the way | Mail Online


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## BlindBoo (Jun 12, 2014)

tinydancer said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > Grampa Murked U said:
> ...



"Much of what is known of Baghdadis history is unconfirmed, while other information is disputed to such a degree that its nearly impossible to discern where fact meets Baghdadis rising myth."

That is from your link.

So care to expand upon the claim that Obama let this guy go?


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## tinydancer (Jun 12, 2014)

Ravi said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...



Link to negate data put out there by both the Daily Mail and the Telegraph that he was held in Camp Bocco?  Oh and the BBC?

Note: I'm picking up two different spellings of the American camp. Not a typo. 

* Some believe he was already a militant jihadist during the rule of Saddam Hussein. Others suggest he was radicalised during the four years he was held at Camp Bucca, a US facility in southern Iraq where many al-Qaeda commanders were detained.*






You might want to check out who America let go that just might take over Iraq up and coming. 

*Profile: Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi*

BBC News - Profile: Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi


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## blackhawk (Jun 12, 2014)

Grampa Murked U said:


> The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
> Seems strange to me that we would spend all the money & lives just to let it fall in a matter of weeks/months.



We will watch it fall President Obama has made it clear he won't get involved in a military way in the Middle East or anywhere else.


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## Paperman299 (Jun 12, 2014)

Ravi said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...



It's not. 



> The $10 million price on his head, meanwhile, suggests that whoever released him from US custody four years ago may now be regretting it.



Information about him is still pretty sketchy, but it seems most likely at this point that we did have this person in custody and released him in 2009.


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## tinydancer (Jun 12, 2014)

BlindBoo said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...



He was let go in 2009. Just go thru and read my posts. I'm not giving you a fairy tale. I'm presenting the board with information that is out there from different solid sources.

Here we go again. 

*WHY DID THE US RELEASE BAGHDADI RELEASED FROM BOCCA CAMP?

Baghdadi has a $10million bounty on his head by the US that is only second to that of Al-Qaeda chief Ayman al-Zawahri at $25million.

He was taken as a prisoner of the Americans in Camp Bucca between 2005 and 2009 - it was here that one of the only two photos know to be in existence was taken of him.

It is unknown if he came radicalised during his time at the camp where many al-Qaeda commanders were held or if he was already a radical who emerged after the 2003 US invasion.

A US intelligence report from 2005, states: 'Abu Duaa was connected to the intimidation, torture and murder of local civilians in Qaim', says a Pentagon document.

'He would kidnap individuals or entire families, accuse them, pronounce sentence and then publicly execute them.'

It is therefore unclear why he was released in 2009.

He may have been one of thousands of suspected insurgents granted amnesty as the US began its draw down in Iraq or he may be under several names.

'We either arrested or killed a man of that name about half a dozen times, he is like a wraith who keeps reappearing, and I am not sure where fact and fiction meet,' said Lieutenant-General Sir Graeme Lamb, a former British special forces commander who helped US efforts against al-Qaeda in Iraq told The Telegraph.

'There are those who want to promote the idea that this man is invincible, when it may actually be several people using the same nom de guerre.'

*

Tikrit falls to Islamist terrorists | Mail Online


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## Ravi (Jun 12, 2014)

tinydancer said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > tinydancer said:
> ...



I bet your picking up a lot more than misspellings.


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## TooTall (Jun 12, 2014)

jasonnfree said:


> C_Clayton_Jones said:
> 
> 
> > Grampa Murked U said:
> ...



He had a little help creating the problem:



> WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Bush turns his attention on Friday to the United Nations after the Senate joined the House in strong votes authorizing a possible U.S. attack on Iraq.
> 
> The Republican-led House and Democratic-led Senate by wide margins approved the resolution that Bush wanted to reinforce his demand that the U.N. Security Council threaten the use of force, if necessary, to enforce its requirements that Iraqi President Saddam Hussein abandon programs for biological, chemical or nuclear weapons.
> 
> ...



Congress Grants Bush War Powers Against Iraq


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## Mojo2 (Jun 12, 2014)

Grampa Murked U said:


> The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
> Seems strange to me that we would spend all the money & lives just to let it fall in a matter of weeks/months.



This happens when you seek to only end wars and not finish them.

And this is the lesson of Viet Nam we STILL haven't learned.


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## Synthaholic (Jun 12, 2014)

Steinlight said:


> Saddam, miss him yet?



I missed him the day we invaded.  I wanted us to reconcile with him and put up a united front against Iran.



> Honestly, what a waste of blood and treasure that war was, we got absolutely nothing out of this pointless quagmire(except a trillion in debt, thousands of americans dead, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis debt, and a demoralized fighting force that is spread far too thin) . We didn't even get oil out of the deal(we fought a war to give the Chinese cheap oil).



Ok, so far, so good.



> *And as if the situation couldn't get any worse, President Noble Peace Prize had the bright idea to give Al Qaeda weapons in Syria(because Assad was the new Hitler),* and when these guys lost in Syria they have just decided to overthrow the puppet state we spent a decade establishing.



...and now you've gone full retard.

Obama didn't arm the Syrian rebels, like John McCain wanted him to.


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## Ravi (Jun 12, 2014)

Mojo2 said:


> Grampa Murked U said:
> 
> 
> > The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
> ...


Bigger lesson that we haven't learned is to not start unneeded wars.


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## Synthaholic (Jun 12, 2014)

tinydancer said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > tinydancer said:
> ...



Wait a minute - they don't KNOW?  

If Bush/Cheney had him for over 4 years and he's this culpable, why didn't they put him on trial?


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## LogikAndReazon (Jun 12, 2014)

The more dead muslims, jihadists & islamists the BETTER


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## Synthaholic (Jun 12, 2014)

tinydancer said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > tinydancer said:
> ...



Yes.  It is.


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## Synthaholic (Jun 12, 2014)

blackhawk said:


> Grampa Murked U said:
> 
> 
> > The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
> ...


Another campaign promise kept!


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## PaintMyHouse (Jun 12, 2014)

LogikAndReazon said:


> The more dead muslims, jihadists & islamists the BETTER


How odd.  Many of them feel the same way, about Christians and Jews.


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## Synthaholic (Jun 12, 2014)

Ravi said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...


She's also spamming the board with the same article, over and over, like it's going to make it true.


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## BlindBoo (Jun 12, 2014)

tinydancer said:


> BlindBoo said:
> 
> 
> > tinydancer said:
> ...



I've already read them.  Sounds like the Dread Pirate Roberts.

He may have been one of thousands of suspected insurgents granted amnesty as the US began its draw down in Iraq or he may be under several names.

'We either arrested or killed a man of that name about half a dozen times, he is like a wraith who keeps reappearing, and I am not sure where fact and fiction meet,' said Lieutenant-General Sir Graeme Lamb, a former British special forces commander who helped US efforts against al-Qaeda in Iraq told The Telegraph.

'There are those who want to promote the idea that this man is invincible, when it may actually be several people using the same nom de guerre.'


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## AmericanFirst (Jun 12, 2014)

BlindBoo said:


> If Congress wants the President to use military force again in Iraq let them vote on a resolution supporting President Obama and giving him the resources necessary.


Obamashitforbrains won't go through congress as he thinks he doesn't have to.


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## AmericanFirst (Jun 12, 2014)

Obamashitforbrains has no clue what he is doing and this is what happens.


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## LogikAndReazon (Jun 12, 2014)

Muslims kill more muslims then christians and jews...

PRECIOUS


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## Synthaholic (Jun 12, 2014)

Mojo2 said:


> Grampa Murked U said:
> 
> 
> > The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
> ...



Describe what that finished war would look like, and how we would get there.

How many more dead Americans did you want to expend?  How much more money?  How many more years?

There was no way we were going to stay in a country without a SOFA.  We demand it and get it from every country we are in, in order to protect our troops.  The Iraqi 'government' refused.

This country would never allow it.  Would you put up with American soldiers being judged by Iraqis using Sharia Law?  Obama won't.  And Bush wouldn't.

So STFU.


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## PaintMyHouse (Jun 12, 2014)

LogikAndReazon said:


> Muslims kill more muslims then christians and jews...
> 
> PRECIOUS


And Christians kill more Christians.  This should not be shocking.


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## LordBrownTrout (Jun 12, 2014)

We'll see what happens if this horrendous group takes control of an oilfield.


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## B. Kidd (Jun 12, 2014)

PaintMyHouse said:


> LogikAndReazon said:
> 
> 
> > The more dead muslims, jihadists & islamists the BETTER
> ...




Looks like a Holy War.


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## Synthaholic (Jun 12, 2014)

BlindBoo said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> > BlindBoo said:
> ...


Maybe it's time for tinydancer to produce a birth certificate!


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## BlindBoo (Jun 12, 2014)

AmericanFirst said:


> BlindBoo said:
> 
> 
> > If Congress wants the President to use military force again in Iraq let them vote on a resolution supporting President Obama and giving him the resources necessary.
> ...



Well as a matter of fact he doesn't.  But I think he should call a special session and call for Congress to vote on a resolution of support and pledge all the necessary support for the operation.  That way both sides can put up or shut up.


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## Steinlight (Jun 12, 2014)

Synthaholic said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> > Saddam, miss him yet?
> ...



Wow, I thought this was common knowledge that US was arming rebels(which are primarily Islamic Radicals like Al Nusrah and ISIS. I guess the average American is in fact more retarded than I thought. The fact that someone so incredibly misinformed can have the right to vote is a fucking tragedy. Seriously go sit in the corner with your cyber dunce cap. 



CIA begins weapons delivery to Syrian rebels - The Washington Post

Syrian rebels seen firing U.S.-made weapons raises questions - TIME

US reportedly starts supplying Syrian rebels with anti-tank weapons ? RT USA

U.S., Britain suspend aid to north Syria after Islamists seize weapons store | Reuters


The Islamic State of Iraq and Greater Syria: Two Arab countries fall apart | The Economist

U.S. providing some lethal aid to Syrian rebels: opposition spokesman | Reuters

» Susan Rice Admits U.S. Giving Arms to Al-Qaeda in Syria Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!

Honestly, stick to talking about how evil the Tea Party is or how guns are bad. You are out of your depth on foreign policy issues


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## Mojo2 (Jun 12, 2014)

Synthaholic said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> > Saddam, miss him yet?
> ...



What about the Iraq Liberation Act?

Iraq Liberation Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Weren't you concerned about Saddam when Clinton signed this into law?


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## LogikAndReazon (Jun 12, 2014)

And blacks kill more negroes....

More Dead muslim neanderthals means this country is more secure to a fractal degree...sunnis, shia, goatherders.... Let that genocidal bloodbath never end


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## PaintMyHouse (Jun 12, 2014)

B. Kidd said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > LogikAndReazon said:
> ...


Yep.  Just the Children of God slaughtering each other again.  Business as usual for religion.


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## LogikAndReazon (Jun 12, 2014)

Godless, atheist, marxist & communist totalitarians killed more folk in the last century then religions ever have.  

In an intellectually superior kinda way.... Heathens


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## Mojo2 (Jun 12, 2014)

PaintMyHouse said:


> LogikAndReazon said:
> 
> 
> > Muslims kill more muslims then christians and jews...
> ...



Examples please.


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## thereisnospoon (Jun 12, 2014)

Plasmaball said:


> Nope fuck them. ..they wanted us out...we shouldnt have been there..This is what was said would happen when bush when in...



I tend to agree with this point of view.
One of the main irritants that Islamists use to direct terror towards the US is our mere presence in the Middle East.
We should stay out. Let them settle their own problems.
The ideas of spreading democracy and nation building are obsolete.
Even when the US sends troops to liberate people from tyranny, the liberated turn against us.
Our troops would serve this nation better if they were deployed on our borders and sea ports.


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## Steinlight (Jun 12, 2014)

PaintMyHouse said:


> B. Kidd said:
> 
> 
> > PaintMyHouse said:
> ...



LOL, as though a couple thousand guys represents Islam, or all religions. Yea, it's all religions fault, not the America's fault for arming radicals in Syria and stoking the flames of instability in the region. You ought to spend your time learning about the world around you instead of performing fellatio on Richard Dawkins and the dead carcass of the fat degenerate drunk Chris Hitchens. You are part of the reason America is despised around the world. You aren't even aware of the actions of your own government and demonize the culture of the victims as though that is the problem.

Iraq and Syria were peaceful before the US got involved, and they would be far more stable if the US stayed out of their way. 

Fucking faggot ass dumbshit atheist, you disgust me.


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## georgephillip (Jun 12, 2014)

Grampa Murked U said:


> The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
> Seems strange to me that we would spend all the money & lives just to let it fall in a matter of weeks/months.


We could also vote AGAINST every single Republican AND Democrat who's still in congress and voted in favor of the Joint Resolution to Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq on 2 October 2002.


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## tinydancer (Jun 12, 2014)

Synthaholic said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...



So to left wing loons now Al Qaeda and affiliates have never been terrorists. Just a Sunni insurgency.



Whatever cranks your world.


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## Kondor3 (Jun 12, 2014)

Walk away...

Fuck 'em...

To hell with the oil...

To hell with our pledge to assist...

To hell with our dashed and moronic hopes for nation-building...

They don't have it in 'em, to govern without brutal overcoming of one faction by another...

Let 'em sink back into the cesspool...

To hell with Iraq...

We have forgotten how to win a war, then walk away, and leave the place to shift for itself...

Time to re-learn that lesson...

Things will sort themselves out one way or another, without our help...

If the UN wants to go in there and fix it, that's fine...

We can contribute our share of logistical and financial support, but that's it...

Not one more bomb or cannon-shell or bullet...

Not one more American dollar...

Not one more drop of American blood...

We can always turn the place into a pile of rubble, if they ever make a move on us or our interests...

Vietnam taught us to identify and act-upon the _Point-of-Diminishing-Returns_, after which we were pouring good money (and blood) after bad, to no good purpose nor likely prospect for success...

Let us remember that lesson, now, and act upon that memory...

Iraq is a hopeless tangle, due in part to our own interference, and due in very large part to their own twisted culture and religious zeal...

Trying to plant democracy in such shit-holes is akin to the pearls-before-swine metaphor...

Ultimately, they just haven't got it in 'em; certainly, not to an extent where they're willing to effectively defend it themselves...

Further intense involvement will simply be throwing good money after bad...

Let's stop being stupid about this...

Fuck 'em...

Just walk away...


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## thereisnospoon (Jun 12, 2014)

Steinlight said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > B. Kidd said:
> ...



Paint my house is here just to antagonize other posters. Do not engage.
The more you post, the more stupid shit he spews back.
Treat him for what he is...A fucking flyspeck in the ocean.


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## thereisnospoon (Jun 12, 2014)

BlindBoo said:


> If Congress wants the President to use military force again in Iraq let them vote on a resolution supporting President Obama and giving him the resources necessary.



What's that got to do with the subject matter of this thread?


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## Paperman299 (Jun 12, 2014)

Steinlight said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > B. Kidd said:
> ...



I agree that the US is making things worse, not better, abroad. But why all the hate for atheists? You rebuke Paint for painting all Muslims with the same broad brush, and follow it up by popping everyone who doesn't report themselves as religious on a census into the same devious cabal.


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## thereisnospoon (Jun 12, 2014)

Plasmaball said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> > Plasmaball said:
> ...



Actually, he does. Period.


----------



## Steinlight (Jun 12, 2014)

Paperman299 said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> > PaintMyHouse said:
> ...



Where did I paint all atheists with the same broad brush? I did no such thing. Stay on topic, this isn't about your belief or lack there of in a deity. This is about the US intervention turning an entire region upside down.


----------



## thereisnospoon (Jun 12, 2014)

chikenwing said:


> BlindBoo said:
> 
> 
> > healthmyths said:
> ...



Whenever a lib cannot control the narrative and their play book does not offer them a canned response, they resort to "out of context" or "you are a liar"...
So childish.


----------



## tinydancer (Jun 12, 2014)

Synthaholic said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > tinydancer said:
> ...



I've only been in three threads today. One post in a gun control thread and a couple of posts in Crusader Frank's thread.  Your nose must be growing.


----------



## kaz (Jun 12, 2014)

Grampa Murked U said:


> The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
> Seems strange to me that we would spend all the money & lives just to let it fall in a matter of weeks/months.



And if we get involved again, then it'll just be a matter of time before we have to make the same choice again, and again and again...


----------



## BlindBoo (Jun 12, 2014)

thereisnospoon said:


> BlindBoo said:
> 
> 
> > If Congress wants the President to use military force again in Iraq let them vote on a resolution supporting President Obama and giving him the resources necessary.
> ...



Should we bomb or no.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqH21LEmfbQ&feature=kp]The Clash - Should I Stay Or Should I Go - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Paperman299 (Jun 12, 2014)

Steinlight said:


> Paperman299 said:
> 
> 
> > Steinlight said:
> ...





> ...instead of performing fellatio on Richard Dawkins and the dead carcass of the fat degenerate drunk Chris Hitchens





> Fucking faggot ass dumbshit atheist, you disgust me



lol, you brought up atheists. No one else. And don't act innocent when you've put "atheist" as the insult that *caps off* a string of insults. 

You want to talk about the Middle East, talk about the Middle East.


----------



## Steinlight (Jun 12, 2014)

Paperman299 said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> > Paperman299 said:
> ...



Sorry I hurt your feelings, you atheist faggot. I made myself clear, I wasn't talking about any atheists except the one I was responding to, now I am talking to you as well. Believe it or not, the world doesn't revolve around your feels. 

Stop derailing the thread you liberal piece of shit.

I am not responding to your trolling anymore.


----------



## Steinlight (Jun 12, 2014)

Thousands of Iraqi Army personnel captured, no big deal right?


----------



## tinydancer (Jun 12, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> Walk away...
> 
> Fuck 'em...
> 
> ...



Normally we are on the same page but I have to disagree with you on this one. And with all due respect here is why. 

If ISIS and Levant take over Baghdad and consequently conquer the rest of Iraq we've got hell on earth coming our way. 

These terrorists truly make Al Qaeda look like choir boys. Think about it. This is an army of vicious terrorists reportedly 12,000 strong. 

They already took over Mosul and Tikrit. Releasing more terrorists along the way who are no doubt joining up with them.

On top of that they have raided the banks and already have over $400 million dollars at their disposal now.

So if they are successful in taking Baghdad .......


----------



## BlindBoo (Jun 12, 2014)

thereisnospoon said:


> chikenwing said:
> 
> 
> > BlindBoo said:
> ...



At least get the out of context quote correct!  He was screaming at the top of his lungs

"The War is Lost"  running up and down the Senate Chambers  "The War is Lost"

Not "we have lost the war", "we have lost the war".

That's just silly.  Well not as silly as thinking he only said either one but I know you don't really care that the words immediately preceding those 4 words were something like "If we don't change course in Iraq Mr. President, the war is lost" But I can't help you there.


----------



## Zander (Jun 12, 2014)

It's time for the Iraqi's to take care of themselves.  

We should help the nation of "Kurdistan" become a reality.... and then arm them to the teeth.


----------



## tinydancer (Jun 12, 2014)

kaz said:


> Grampa Murked U said:
> 
> 
> > The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
> ...



I don't think we have an option at this point kaz. If Baghdadi and ISIS capture Baghdad. 

You know what it just makes my head explode thinking of the consequences if we allow this to happen.


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## Steinlight (Jun 12, 2014)

tinydancer said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Walk away...
> ...



They have also taken Baiji, a major oil refining town with power plants that provide electricity to Baghdad and Kirkuk. Iraq is at the height of summer temperatures at the moment. No electricity in the dead of Iraqi summer, nothing good comes from this. Expect ISIS to take advantage of this and use this control of power plants as a weapon to create instability in cities not yet captured by them. 
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/06/11/world/middleeast/isis-control-map.html


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## PaintMyHouse (Jun 12, 2014)

tinydancer said:


> ...it just makes my head explode thinking of the consequences if we allow this to happen.



Funny, I'm the exact opposite.


----------



## Paperman299 (Jun 12, 2014)

Steinlight said:


> Paperman299 said:
> 
> 
> > Steinlight said:
> ...



Funny how "derailing the thread" is synonymous with "calling out my hypocrisy." But since you couldn't keep up your facade of holding no bigotry against non-religious types for even one post, by all means. Get back to spewing just as much vitriol at people in this thread for completely on-topic reasons.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 12, 2014)

tinydancer said:


> > ...To hell with Iraq...
> >
> > Just walk away...
> 
> ...


Yeah, I hear you, TD.

I'm not comfortable with the idea myself.

But I believe that the situation is probably too far gone now to be salvaged.

Case-in-point - the en masse desertions from their national security forces.

If the people will not defend themselves, then we cannot help them, in the long run.

The shades (ghosts) of every one of our fallen boys and girls who died in Vietnam are looking down and pleading with us to remember that hard and bitterly-learned lesson.

If we only allow ourselves to listen.

Personally, and like so many others, I never believed in the Iraq Adventure, even though I shut my mouth and supported our people there, once we had gone in.

I think we've hit that _Point of Diminishing Returns_ with Iraq, and I don't want to burn-through more American lives and more billions of American dollars on a bad bet...

Every so often, you've got to say: To hell with the consequences.

I think we've reached that point with Iraq.

Certainly, with the present Administration's hand on the wheel.

It's rather like asking Jimmy Carter to orchestrate a large-scale intervention.

Someone far better suited to sitting around the campfire and holding hands and singing Kumbaya-My-Lord, than leading a nation during a shooting war.

Your mileage may vary.


----------



## tinydancer (Jun 12, 2014)

Zander said:


> It's time for the Iraqi's to take care of themselves.
> 
> We should help the nation of "Kurdistan" become a reality.... and then arm them to the teeth.



If we let Iraq fall to this psycho offshoot of Al Qaeda there's no helping the Kurds. They're toast.


----------



## Steinlight (Jun 12, 2014)

Paperman299 said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> > Paperman299 said:
> ...


http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...support-or-wash-our-hands-10.html#post9254107

Done with you, stop derailing the thread, you are a classic troll. Trying to distract people from disseminating information on the conflict in Iraq.

This is my last response to you.


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## Steinlight (Jun 12, 2014)

Iraqi Parliament has all but dissolved(only a 1/3 showed up for business today) and the Iraqi Army has experienced mass desertions. ISIS is 30 miles outside Baghdad. 

LA Times

500,000 people have fled Mosul according to reports as well. 

Militants Reportedly Overrun Tikrit, As 500,000 Flee Mosul : The Two-Way : NPR


----------



## tinydancer (Jun 12, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> > > ...To hell with Iraq...
> ...



It's Baghdadi. They've got over $400 million from Mosul. Terrorists with mega bucks. Answering to no one. Not even Zawahiri.

Obama set him free and has been watching him grow in stature and power in Syria and not doing a damn thing about it.

Iraq was begging for drone strikes since last November. To prevent this invasion. 

I don't want to get involved but if we don't stop ISIS now they will not be contained.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 12, 2014)

You may very well be right, TD, but this is where I think we will be, in a couple of weeks, perhaps sooner...







I doubt that _Teddy Roosevelt_ could pull this one out of the fire now...


----------



## TooTall (Jun 12, 2014)

EriktheRed said:


> bripat9643 said:
> 
> 
> > Grampa Murked U said:
> ...



And all this time I thought Bush was merely taking the advice of these two and a dozen more highly regarded Democrats that were in Congress.

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real..."
   - *Sen. John F. Kerry *(D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003 | Source

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members ... It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
   -* Sen. Hillary Clinton *(D, NY), Oct 10, 2002 | Source
snopes.com: Weapons of Mass Destruction Quotes


----------



## tinydancer (Jun 12, 2014)

Steinlight said:


> Iraqi Parliament has all but dissolved(only a 1/3 showed up for business today) and the Iraqi Army has experienced mass desertions. ISIS is 30 miles outside Baghdad.
> 
> LA Times
> 
> ...



This is so FUBAR'D my heads spinning faster than Linda Blair's in the Exorcist. 

I don't have a warm and fuzzy at the thought of ISIS taking over Iraq.


----------



## Steinlight (Jun 12, 2014)

tinydancer said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> > Iraqi Parliament has all but dissolved(only a 1/3 showed up for business today) and the Iraqi Army has experienced mass desertions. ISIS is 30 miles outside Baghdad.
> ...



Don't expect this to end any time soon. According to reports, they control oil fields in the East of Syria, and are using the revenues to finance their operations in Iraq. 
ISIS: The al-Qaeda-linked Islamists powerful enough to capture a key Iraqi city - The Washington Post

With US weapons and the ability to self finance, they are poised to take over the country with the second largest oil reserves in the region. For all these years, we talked about a so called Islamic threat in Saddam, the Iranian Regime, Taliban etc. Isn't it ironic we have now created the radical islamic monster in ISIS that we claimed to be fighting all these years. And they by far the biggest threat so far.

Now they have taken control of Iraqis largest oil refinery in Baiji.
Islamist Insurgents Close In On Iraq's Biggest Oil Refinery Day After Assault On Mosul

Now they control 17% of the country's oil fields. ISIS now controls more oil than most of nations of the world. A scary thought to say the least.
ISIL Extends Gains in Iraq, Takes Turk Diplomats Hostage - Bloomberg

Expect instability not only in Iraq. But if ISIS can make a radical islamic state out of Iraq and parts of Syria, expect a massive uptick in radical islamist activity worldwide. Chechnya, Somalia, Nigeria, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and  a revitalized "arab spring" etc.


----------



## Steinlight (Jun 12, 2014)

Iranian Forces now in Iraq fighting radical islamist ISIS. You know its a messed up world when the Iranians are the good guys. 

Iran Deploys Forces to Fight Militants in Iraq - WSJ

http://dailycaller.com/2014/06/12/report-iranian-troops-already-battling-terrorists-inside-iraq/


----------



## tinydancer (Jun 12, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> You may very well be right, TD, but this is where I think we will be, in a couple of weeks, perhaps sooner...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What pisses me off Kondor is that if Obama and his administration hadn't been so hell bent for leather on trying to keep that idiotic narrative that AQ was on the run. AQ was decimated going we wouldn't be here right now. 

We wouldn't be witnessing what we are seeing unfold today. Baghdadi has been operating in Syria all this time with Assad trying to fight him and other terrorist groups and paid mercenaries while Obama has turned a blind eye to this massive build up of an AQ ARMY all because for political reasons he wanted Assad gone. 

Now we have a virulent terrorist freaking army who are beyond evil now marching on Baghdad.

This was preventable. Check this out. No boots on the ground were needed if instead of dicking around drawing lines in the sand for Putin, Obama actually took care of business somewhere in the freaking world instead of strutting like a banty rooster all the time. 

The key to this disaster lies in this Administrations goal to have Assad removed from power. It was more important to them to keep this war in Syria going and being the idiots they are they didn't foresee the spillover into Iraq.

Aye carumba!

*Al-Maliki and other Iraqi leaders have pleaded with the Obama administration for more than a year for additional help to combat the growing insurgency, which has been fueled by the unrelenting civil war in neighboring Syria.

Northern Iraq has become a way station for insurgents who routinely travel between the two countries and are seeding the Syrian war's violence in Baghdad and beyond.
*

'I don't rule out anything': Obama vows to help Iraqis after he's accused of 'taking a nap' while al-Qaeda army marches on Baghdad -- but what can he do? | Mail Online


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## PaintMyHouse (Jun 12, 2014)

Steinlight said:


> You know its a messed up world when the Iranians are the good guys.


You missed the memo I see, there _are no_ good guys.


----------



## Siete (Jun 12, 2014)

tinydancer said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > You may very well be right, TD, but this is where I think we will be, in a couple of weeks, perhaps sooner...
> ...




Obama thanks troops in Afghanistan, says ?Al Qaeda is on its heels ? because of you? ? CNN Political Ticker - CNN.com Blogs


----------



## paulitician (Jun 12, 2014)

Looks like we're all-in on supporting this current regime. Too much American blood & treasure has been invested in them. We have no choice but to defend em. So Airstrikes are gonna happen. What a choice though, huh? Support the Shiite Iran-aligned Iraqi Government. Or the Sunni Al Qaeda-led Terrorists. 

I just read that Iranian Troops are now fighting alongside Iraqi Government troops. So all that American blood & treasure was spent to help Iran become a more powerful force in Iraq and the region. What a serious blunder. It's a No-Win scenario for Americans. There are winners in this, but the American People aren't one of em.


----------



## dilloduck (Jun 12, 2014)

PaintMyHouse said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> > You know its a messed up world when the Iranians are the good guys.
> ...



Then who in the hell were the US and other western countries supporting to overthrow Assad ?


----------



## tinydancer (Jun 12, 2014)

Steinlight said:


> Iranian Forces now in Iraq fighting radical islamist ISIS. You know its a messed up world when the Iranians are the good guys.
> 
> Iran Deploys Forces to Fight Militants in Iraq - WSJ
> 
> Report: Iranian Troops Already Battling Terrorists Inside Iraq | The Daily Caller



Wow. Obama has ignored all the pleas for help for over a year and now Iran is coming to Iraq's aid?

Unreal. Just unfreaking real.


----------



## Mr Natural (Jun 12, 2014)

Just let them fight it out among themselves.

The more dead Islamists, the better off the rest of the civilized world will be.


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## PaintMyHouse (Jun 12, 2014)

dilloduck said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > Steinlight said:
> ...



The not quite as bad as this guy guys, at least for now.


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## NoTeaPartyPleez (Jun 12, 2014)

Grampa Murked U said:


> The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
> Seems strange to me that we would spend all the money & lives just to let it fall in a matter of weeks/months.



*If Bush and CHeney had actually listened to those generals they were so fond of referring to, they would have been told just that.  

*


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## bedowin62 (Jun 12, 2014)

its comical the way you losers cant defend Obama!!!


----------



## dilloduck (Jun 12, 2014)

PaintMyHouse said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> > PaintMyHouse said:
> ...



The Saudi's and Qatari's were paying big bucks for revolutionaries before---maybe they will pay us.


----------



## Steinlight (Jun 12, 2014)

PaintMyHouse said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> > PaintMyHouse said:
> ...



Assad was like Saddam, secular, certainly repressive, but far better than the rebels, as we can now see. We really opened up a can of worms now to say the least getting involved in Syria with shady elements like ISIS and Al Nusra. 

For their faults, the Middle East was a far more peaceful, secular, a prosperous place with strongmen like Assad and Saddam in power.


----------



## PaintMyHouse (Jun 12, 2014)

dilloduck said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > dilloduck said:
> ...



Gotta keep the price of oil up.  Whatever does that, they are fans of.


----------



## dilloduck (Jun 12, 2014)

Steinlight said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > dilloduck said:
> ...



Maybe but Obama says Assad must go -----( well he was for awhile --He might like him now )


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## PaintMyHouse (Jun 12, 2014)

Steinlight said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > dilloduck said:
> ...



Only a strongman can hold together what should never have been in the first place.


----------



## Siete (Jun 12, 2014)

Mr Clean said:


> Just let them fight it out among themselves.
> 
> The more dead Islamists, the better off the rest of the civilized world will be.




so much for the Republican mantra "let the strong survive"


we try and kill them  then bitch when they kill  each other


simply amazing .......


----------



## paulitician (Jun 12, 2014)

Steinlight said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > dilloduck said:
> ...



Spot On. Look at our choices now in Iraq...Support the current Shiite Iranian-aligned Iraqi Government, or the Sunni Al Qaeda-led Rebels? It's a worse choice than in Syria. A truly disastrous blunder for Americans.


----------



## Steinlight (Jun 12, 2014)

dilloduck said:


> PaintMyHouse said:
> 
> 
> > dilloduck said:
> ...



The question is, is this whole scenario out of our hands, are we really this impotent and incompetent, or are we behind the scenes in Iraq stoking this instability because their shia government is moving towards Iran(As evident by Iranian forces on the ground in Iraq helping the government now)?

Neither would surprise me, either way, very bad times are ahead in the region.


----------



## dilloduck (Jun 12, 2014)

PaintMyHouse said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> > PaintMyHouse said:
> ...



Yay petro dollars


----------



## Steinlight (Jun 12, 2014)

PaintMyHouse said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> > PaintMyHouse said:
> ...



Syria and Iraq were stable until we got involved. I don't buy this line that the arabs aren't capable of proper and stable governance. Compared to the Gulf States, Syria and Iraq had a far better standard of living for the average person(and women as well) compared to the US allied Gulf States.


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## Steinlight (Jun 12, 2014)

Turkey threatens action against ISIS if the 80 Turkish hostages of ISIS are harmed. Interesting to see, because up until now, Turkey seemed to be cooperating with Gulf States and Saudi Arabia in Syria. I winder how this disrupts relations considering ISIS is backed by the latter powers. 

Iraq Isis Crisis: Turkey Threaten Military Action if 80 Citizens are Harmed in Mosul by Islamic Militants


----------



## Rozman (Jun 12, 2014)

Grampa Murked U said:


> The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
> Seems strange to me that we would spend all the money & lives just to let it fall in a matter of weeks/months.



Maybe the Democrat's will be interested in doing something when the price 
of oil goes to $125.00 per barrel.

As for the Iraqi's...They were given freedom and now they need to fight for their 
country.


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## namvet (Jun 12, 2014)

fuck em. let em fall


----------



## Zander (Jun 12, 2014)

Did you hear the one about the brainwashed Allah-monkeys that got in a fight over minor differences in their interpretation of a silly book? .....they killed each other for 1300 years!   Yeah, it's hilarious!! 



seriously, Arm the Kurds to the teeth. They deserve their own nation. Then let the Shia and Sunni nutjobs continue to kill each other...just like they've been doing for the last 1300 years....


----------



## Siete (Jun 12, 2014)

namvet said:


> fuck em. let em fall



indeed.


Iraq screams help, we help. The next time they scream help we help. Its an endless cycle. Take the training wheels off and ride the bike or fall down. It's that simple


----------



## paulitician (Jun 12, 2014)

Please tell me these aren't the same Terrorists our Government is funding & arming in Syria. I mean, it wouldn't surprise me though. But does anyone know of this group is connected to Rebel Groups in Syria? Just curious.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 12, 2014)

Zander said:


> Did you hear the one about the brainwashed Allah-monkeys that got in a fight over minor differences in their interpretation of a silly book? .....they killed each other for 1300 years!   Yeah, it's hilarious!!
> 
> seriously, Arm the Kurds to the teeth. They deserve their own nation. Then let the Shia and Sunni nutjobs continue to kill each other...just like they've been doing for the last 1300 years....


Agreed.

Let 'em slaughter each other.

It's their favorite pastime.

But draw the line at Turkey...

They are our friends, and as much European as Middle-Eastern, and sane, and deserving of our full and utmost support.

But, Iraq and Syria?

I say we walk away, and devil take the consequences.

But that is war-weariness and a total lack of confidence in the Obama Administration (in this context) talking, and I understand that there is an equally compelling counterargument for this.


----------



## regent (Jun 12, 2014)

chikenwing said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > Grampa Murked U said:
> ...



But how do we convince people that it was Obama that invaded Iraq? That's a pretty tough sell seeing that many today were alive when Bush invaded Iraq. Some might even remember Bush landing on that carrier deck and the sign, Mission Accomplished. Add to that the authorization Congress gave to Bush to invade Iraq, if the president thought it necessary. It would be great if when a new president is elected all the past is wiped out and everything starts again like a board game.


----------



## Siete (Jun 12, 2014)

regent said:


> chikenwing said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...




the idiots are already convinced, working on everyone else that isn't a republican will be difficult.


----------



## TooTall (Jun 12, 2014)

Rozman said:


> Grampa Murked U said:
> 
> 
> > The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
> ...



That is exactly what Obama wants to happen.  At least $125 or higher and he can push his green agenda.


----------



## Steinlight (Jun 12, 2014)

regent said:


> chikenwing said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...



Honestly, leave your pro-Obama hackery for another thread. There is no other way to spin this than Obama screwed up majorly by aiding radical islamists in Syria who are  now on the verge of toppling a weak puppet Iraqi government Bush installed and we spent thousands of lives and over a trillion dollars installing(not even counting the hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis. Obama and Bush are two sides of the same failed interventionist foreign policy coin.

Lets try to keep this thread clean of how of Team Democrat Team Republican feuds. It is the lowest common denominator of political conversation.


As for more news...

Apparently, Iraq hasn't asked for US troops or any specific aid according to their officials, but have said they wouldn't be opposed to the US using drone strikes against millitants.

And it looks as though there is good news. The government has taken back Tikrit.
Obama: Iraq needs help as ISIS threatens to seize more cities - CNN.com


----------



## Steinlight (Jun 12, 2014)

Kurds have taken Kirkuk from Islamists. The situation seems to be changing by the second. 

Iraq disintegrating as insurgents advance; Kurds seize Kirkuk - The Washington Post


----------



## georgephillip (Jun 12, 2014)

Why not reject every Republican AND Democrat running for reelection next November on the basis of their support for the invasion and occupation of Iraq? Many ballots already offer third party congressional candidates. Choose from Green, Libertarian or whatever BUT reject both wings of the Wall Street/War Party.


----------



## paulitician (Jun 12, 2014)

Steinlight said:


> regent said:
> 
> 
> > chikenwing said:
> ...



Looks like you're right. I'm hearing the groups are connected. Our Government should not have funded & armed Al Qaeda-linked Rebels in Syria. This is the Blow Back on that. It's very sad.


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## Kondor3 (Jun 12, 2014)

PaintMyHouse said:


> Only a strongman can hold together what should never have been in the first place.


Perhaps.

Which is why it should be allowed to collapse, and give rise to something different.

So long as that 'something different' does not present an even greater threat to us.

Which is, of course, the flip side of the coin (argument) - even though I'm war-weary enough and lack enough confidence in this Administration to care, or to think that anything good can be done to salvage this looming train-wreck.


----------



## TooTall (Jun 12, 2014)

NoTeaPartyPleez said:


> Grampa Murked U said:
> 
> 
> > The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
> ...



If Obama had listened to those Generals this could have been prevented.  A small special ops force to continue training the Iraqi Army and provide intel to them.  

I can hear Joe Biden now when Obama sent him to Iraq to ask for a status of forces agreement allowing that to happen.  "You guys don't want the US to keep any troops in Iraq, do you?"  "Didn't think so."

The US has kept a military presence in So Korea, Japan, and Germany after major wars.  Why not Iraq, if for no other reason than to keep the price of oil stable?


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 12, 2014)

TooTall said:


> NoTeaPartyPleez said:
> 
> 
> > Grampa Murked U said:
> ...


On the other hand, we can always just kick-down the door again, if we ever need to, so, why bother with the expense of maintaining such a force. Or so it seems, at first glance.


----------



## paulitician (Jun 12, 2014)

Anyway, my vote is 'wash our hands.' We've spent enough blood & treasure over there.


----------



## Steinlight (Jun 12, 2014)

paulitician said:


> Anyway, my vote is 'wash our hands.' We've spent enough blood & treasure over there.



Washing our hands, meaning you support withdrawing funds and weapons for the rebels in Syria as well? This is where the ISIS stems from. Cut off the rebels in Syria, and you cut off the head of the ISIS and end this instability.


----------



## paulitician (Jun 12, 2014)

Steinlight said:


> paulitician said:
> 
> 
> > Anyway, my vote is 'wash our hands.' We've spent enough blood & treasure over there.
> ...



Massive Debt, too many funerals, and a more powerful Iran & Al Qaeda. That's all the American People have gotten out of this horrific Iraq debacle. It's time to cut our losses. Our intervention over there has made things much worse. It's time to move on.


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## namvet (Jun 12, 2014)

even Iran is coming into the fray

"Iran is coming to the aid of its historic nemesis, sending elite fighters to Iraq in the wake of a Sunni insurgency that has claimed two key northern cities and now threatens Baghdad, Fox News has learned.

Some 150 fighters from the Revolutionary Guards elite Quds force have already been dispatched by Tehran, and the division's powerful commander, Qassem Suleimani, met with Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki Thursday and pledged to send two notorious Iranian brigades to aid in the defense of Baghdad. That could amount to as many as 10,000 soldiers sent to fight the Sunni group known as Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant (ISIS)."

link


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## Bill Angel (Jun 12, 2014)

The Obama Shop 
We should supply Iraq with drone air support, provided that they pay us for its costs in CASH.


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## Peach (Jun 12, 2014)

namvet said:


> even Iran is coming into the fray
> 
> "Iran is coming to the aid of its historic nemesis, sending elite fighters to Iraq in the wake of a Sunni insurgency that has claimed two key northern cities and now threatens Baghdad, Fox News has learned.
> 
> ...



And Obama is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. McCain says act, Boehner says we should have acted sooner. A few tea party aligned say STAY OUT. Catch-22. 

Obama says Iraq going to need more help - CNN.com


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## oldunclemark (Jun 12, 2014)

Ignore them....

Continuing to intervene...will require that we continue to intervene.

Our misrakdes was to e,liminate Sadaam who never allowed Al Queda in..

But we need to cut our losses...Its, at its base,  not about us




Grampa Murked U said:


> I have mixed feelings on this.
> 
> On one hand the middle east is a cesspool of savages and I just wish they would all kill each other off.
> 
> ...


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 12, 2014)

Peach said:


> namvet said:
> 
> 
> > even Iran is coming into the fray
> ...


Obumble is not an effective nor credible Wartime President.


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## paulitician (Jun 12, 2014)

Peach said:


> namvet said:
> 
> 
> > even Iran is coming into the fray
> ...



Obama's biggest mistake was not listening to Putin and Russia in reference to Syria. Putin warned him not to fund & arm very questionable Rebel groups there. But Obama became so gung-ho in getting rid of Assad. He didn't listen. The Blow Back on that is happening now. 

The groups are connected and are Al Qaeda-linked. It was a huge blunder on his part. If not for Putin and Russia, these brutal Terrorist groups would have already taken Syria. Putin was right, our Government should just admit that and stop supporting these animals.


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## oldunclemark (Jun 12, 2014)

..and what ever they say now..they will flip once action is taken..
How much do we care if Baghdad is in turmoil..there are more than 2 sides



Peach said:


> namvet said:
> 
> 
> > even Iran is coming into the fray
> ...


----------



## blackhawk (Jun 12, 2014)

Synthaholic said:


> blackhawk said:
> 
> 
> > Grampa Murked U said:
> ...



Or a brilliant display naivety.


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## oldunclemark (Jun 12, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> Peach said:
> 
> 
> > namvet said:
> ...


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## dilloduck (Jun 12, 2014)

oldunclemark said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Peach said:
> ...


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## Plasmaball (Jun 12, 2014)

Avatar4321 said:


> This is precisely what the Twelvers have been trying to stir up in Iraq.



what?


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## Peach (Jun 12, 2014)

Little-Acorn said:


> Any reason to think the liberals won't just pull us out before the war's over, again?



Again? We left a couple of years ago. When did we 'go in'.....hmmmmmm.....................the nation has been at war, now we critique?


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## dilloduck (Jun 12, 2014)

Peach said:


> namvet said:
> 
> 
> > even Iran is coming into the fray
> ...



Well welcome to the big league Obama-----this ain't Chicago.


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## tinydancer (Jun 12, 2014)

oldunclemark said:


> Ignore them....
> 
> Continuing to intervene...will require that we continue to intervene.
> 
> ...



To allow Baghdadi and his terrorist army to seize and plunder Baghdad would be pure idiocy on our part. 

We're just begging for all hell to be unleashed on us if we let that happen. As it is by taking Mosul's banks they are now the best funded terrorist organization on the planet.

They scored over $400 million in one fell swoop. Think if they seized Baghdad. Aye carumba!

Looks like Iran though has stepped in to save the day. I for one will be relieved if they can wipe this terrorist offshoot of AQ off the face of the earth.


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## Peach (Jun 12, 2014)

dilloduck said:


> oldunclemark said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...


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## TemplarKormac (Jun 12, 2014)

Yeah. Obama wanted to end this war prematurely, and did. He ran on the fact that he brought the troops home in 2012. So, now he finds himself in a conundrum. Stick to his political rhetoric, or risk angering his base by helping the Iraqis.


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## Peach (Jun 12, 2014)

edthecynic said:


> Grampa Murked U said:
> 
> 
> > The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
> ...



We mortgaged the next century to begin this.......yest one was a traitor not to support the invasion.


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## Kondor3 (Jun 12, 2014)

Peach said:


> edthecynic said:
> 
> 
> > Grampa Murked U said:
> ...


No...

One could disagree with the President and his Administration all one wanted, in the period preceding invasion...

To continue to publicly oppose it after our boys and girls were committed, and already engaged?

Thereby giving aid and comfort to the enemy?

Well, that's oftentimes viewed as a different kind of animal, and more closely akin to treason, in the minds of many good people on both sides of the aisle.


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## deltex1 (Jun 12, 2014)

Grampa Murked U said:


> The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
> Seems strange to me that we would spend all the money & lives just to let it fall in a matter of weeks/months.





Too late...just purge the Magic Neeeeeeeeeeeegro.


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## Pheonixops (Jun 12, 2014)

Grampa Murked U said:


> The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
> Seems strange to me that we would spend all the money & lives just to let it fall in a matter of weeks/months.



If they are fighting each other, they aren't focusing on US. Let them handle their own business or let them request help from the UN and let OTHER countries "help" them. We need a break and WE need to focus on America first. 

Would you keep spending money on a bad investment or would you cut your losses and spend that money on something more productive? I certainly wouldn't want to risk Our people's lives for them? What was one of the reasons that we totally pulled out of Iraq? Didn't it involve the Iraqi government's reluctance to grant immunity to Our military members who would still remain there?


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## TemplarKormac (Jun 12, 2014)

> If they are fighting each other, they aren't focusing on US. Let them  handle their own business or let them request help from the UN and let  OTHER countries "help" them. We need a break and WE need to focus on  America first.



It's quite foolish to assume that these guys aren't focused on doing us harm. Just look at how they responded to the Bergdahl trade. They vowed to start abducting Americans for ransom in exchange for their own fighters. 

Obama's foreign policy on Iraq is like putting a pot of water on a rolling boil, then putting it on simmer in hopes it will stop boiling altogether.


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## J.E.D (Jun 12, 2014)

bripat9643 said:


> Grampa Murked U said:
> 
> 
> > The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
> ...



Americans don't want their troops there. Nobody but pussy chickenhawks like   [MENTION=29100]bripat9643[/MENTION] aka bribaby and your ilk think we should stay.

But thanks for showing your true colors. As long as it hurts Obama, who cares? Who cares if more US troops die? As long as it hurts Democrats.

You are one sorry sack of human feces. Go fuck your own asshole rimless. Fuck you.


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## tinydancer (Jun 12, 2014)

Pheonixops said:


> Grampa Murked U said:
> 
> 
> > The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
> ...



With all due respect Phoenix Ops we are not dealing with a Sunni insurgency as so many on the left tried to portray this invasion of Iraq earlier today.

Oh no no no. We are talking a terrorist army of reportedly 12,000 who had the ability to over run Tikrit and Mosul scoring $400 million plus along the way to now become the richest terror group on the planet.

They are ISIS and Levant whose leader makes Bin Laden look as tough as Liberace. We are talking pure kick ass psycho rock star of terrorists. His name is Baghdadi.

On the bright side while Obama has been dithering, Iran has come to the rescue of the Iraqi people and most importantly are helping to defend Baghdad. 

You have to realize that if this terrorist army truly seizes Iraq and is able to plunder Baghdad for her wealth, destroy the oil fields, have access to all the military hardware we gave Iraq, well hell will rain down on the planet.


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## tinydancer (Jun 12, 2014)

TemplarKormac said:


> > If they are fighting each other, they aren't focusing on US. Let them  handle their own business or let them request help from the UN and let  OTHER countries "help" them. We need a break and WE need to focus on  America first.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh this leader is a piece of work. Check this out. Even the left wing rag WP describes him as formidable.

*The true heir to Osama bin Laden may be ISIS leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, wrote The Washington Posts David Ignatius. He is more violent, more virulent, more anti-American, a senior U.S. intelligence official told the columnist, while the cautious and uncharismatic Zawahiri is not coping well. 

In fact, Baghdadi is now recruiting fighters from other Zawahiri affiliates, including al-Qaedas Yemen branch and the Somalia-based al-Shabab.*

 This monster is enormously successful. 

* Whereas Baghdadi has done an amazing amount  he has captured cities, he has mobilized huge amounts of people, he is killing ruthlessly throughout Iraq and Syria. If you were a guy who wanted action, you would go with Baghdadi.*

How ISIS leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi became the world?s most powerful jihadist leader - The Washington Post


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## Pheonixops (Jun 12, 2014)

Grampa Murked U said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> > Grampa Murked U said:
> ...



LOL, that means that a lot of countries would fit the above criteria. If some country does a sortie to take out a city and innocents are killed, that would pretty much fit the bill. Show me once country that has gone to war or gone to conflict, where innocents weren't killed.


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## Samson (Jun 12, 2014)

tinydancer said:


> Pheonixops said:
> 
> 
> > Grampa Murked U said:
> ...



So, you're saying the attackers are not Sunni?

What sect are they?




> ISIL fanatics are *hardline followers of the Sunni Muslim creed*. They despise Iraq&#8217;s leadership - as well as the majority of the country&#8217;s population - who follow the Shia version of the faith.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ing-amputation-crucifixion.html#ixzz34TcApZiD 
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


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## eagle1462010 (Jun 12, 2014)

According to articles I've read 90,000 Iraqi Troops deserted.  If they refuse to fight for their own country even after we've armed them, then they are hopeless..............

Hopefully some of them will have enough back bone to fight back, but so far it doesn't appear so.


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## Katzndogz (Jun 12, 2014)

Didn't we have that leader in custody and release him?   We just let five more just like him go too.


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## Pheonixops (Jun 12, 2014)

TemplarKormac said:


> Yeah. Obama wanted to end this war prematurely, and did. He ran on the fact that he brought the troops home in 2012. So, now he finds himself in a conundrum. Stick to his political rhetoric, or risk angering his base by helping the Iraqis.





"In late April 2007 Congress passed a supplementary spending bill for Iraq that set a deadline for troop withdrawal but President Bush vetoed this bill soon afterwards.[9][10] *All American military forces were mandated to withdraw from Iraqi territory by 31 December 2011 under the terms of a bilateral agreement signed in 2008 by President Bush. *The last U.S. troops left Iraq on 18 December 2011"

"As reported on Saturday, October 15, 2011, the Obama Administration proceeded with the plan to withdraw American forces from Iraq (barring some last-minute move in the Iraqi parliament when they returned from a break in late November 2011 shortly before the end-of-the-year withdrawal date) *because of concerns that they would not have be given immunity from Iraqi courts*, a concern for American commanders in the field who also had to worry about the Sadrist response should troops stay and the general state of Iraq's readiness for transfer of power"


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## Pheonixops (Jun 12, 2014)

TemplarKormac said:


> > If they are fighting each other, they aren't focusing on US. Let them  handle their own business or let them request help from the UN and let  OTHER countries "help" them. We need a break and WE need to focus on  America first.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No, it's not foolish at all. If they are fighting and killing each other in their country, they aren't concerned about us now. You are mixing up the Iraqis and the Afghans. That has been their goal all along. 

How did Obama make Iraq get into a boil? He didn't initiate the invasion and occupation of Iraq.


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## Pheonixops (Jun 12, 2014)

tinydancer said:


> Pheonixops said:
> 
> 
> > Grampa Murked U said:
> ...



Tiny, I don't care if it's a Shiite or Sunni "insurgency", the fact is that they are killing each other and if those folks do win and take over Iraq, we will take care of business if they try to harm us.


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## Steinlight (Jun 12, 2014)

Pheonixops said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > > If they are fighting each other, they aren't focusing on US. Let them  handle their own business or let them request help from the UN and let  OTHER countries "help" them. We need a break and WE need to focus on  America first.
> ...


If it weren't for Obama funding and supplying islamists(al nusra and isis) in Syria, this civil war in Iraq would not be occurring. Without US support these radical islamists who have now spilled into Iraq from the Syria would not exist as they would have been liquidated by Assad long ago.

Bush bares the blame for the establishment of the weak puppet government in Iraq, Obama bares the responsibility for its overthrow. Both administrations have royally screwed Iraq.

The only thing we should do is stay out of it and pull funding for the islamist  rebels now pouring into Iraq from Syria. If we can stem the flow of weapons to these radicals they might be able to be neutralized once and for all by the Iraqi  and Syrian Governments.


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## JakeStarkey (Jun 12, 2014)

Fucking lie this: "If it weren't for Obama funding and supplying islamists(al nusra and isis) in Syria, this civil war in Iraq would not be occurring."  A great part of the problem are the 150 fighters that rejoined the jihadists after Bush released them.

We can't really slow them down, but Iraq is getting assistance and probably some troops very shortly from Iran.

Let's send Bush to The Hague now.


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## paulitician (Jun 12, 2014)

Steinlight said:


> Pheonixops said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...



Wise analysis. If not for Putin and Russia, these brutal Terrorists would have already taken Syria. Obama got it all wrong. He shouldn't have funded & armed 'Rebels' in Syria. The Blow Back on that has begun. No free pass for him on this. He's had a hand in it.


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## Steinlight (Jun 12, 2014)

Pheonixops said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> > Pheonixops said:
> ...



I know you don't care, you are a typical ignorant American, you can't bother to discern the mass difference in cultures between sunni and shia and the mass difference in outcome between the Al Maliki government defeating ISIS and ISIS, who are radical islamists, taking over a country with the second largest oil reserves in the region. Not only would they have a base for terrorist operations globally, they would have  monetary base with oil resources to finance islamists in Syria, Chechnya, Somalia, Nigeria, Pakistan, Afghanistan etc. And this is all do the short sighted and interventionist policy of the Obama Administration backing islamists in Syria.


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## Zander (Jun 12, 2014)

At this point, I think we need to let the allah-monkeys fight and kill each other. Allahu Ahkbar!!


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## paulitician (Jun 12, 2014)

Looks like Iran and Al Qaeda are the big winners in this. The American People certainly aren't. I think that's all that needs to be said at this point.


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## Steinlight (Jun 12, 2014)

JakeStarkey said:


> Fucking lie this: "If it weren't for Obama funding and supplying islamists(al nusra and isis) in Syria, this civil war in Iraq would not be occurring."  A great part of the problem are the 150 fighters that rejoined the jihadists after Bush released them.
> 
> We can't really slow them down, but Iraq is getting assistance and probably some troops very shortly from Iran.
> 
> Let's send Bush to The Hague now.



You are the only fucking liar here. You are a fucking hack covering up American Government Crimes and Blunders in the Middle East. Neo-Libs, Neo-Cons you are all the same. You are pricks who think your shit doesn't stink and think you guys are immune to global blowback. You have no conception of cause and effect and no understanding of the region or its history.

And it is well established the US backed these Islamists. With President Nobel Peace Prize backing these guys they would have never gotten in a position to overthrow the government of Iraq.


CIA begins weapons delivery to Syrian rebels - The Washington Post

Syrian rebels seen firing U.S.-made weapons raises questions - TIME

US reportedly starts supplying Syrian rebels with anti-tank weapons ? RT USA

U.S., Britain suspend aid to north Syria after Islamists seize weapons store | Reuters


The Islamic State of Iraq and Greater Syria: Two Arab countries fall apart | The Economist

U.S. providing some lethal aid to Syrian rebels: opposition spokesman | Reuters

» Susan Rice Admits U.S. Giving Arms to Al-Qaeda in Syria Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!

Send Obama to the Hague as well.


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## Kondor3 (Jun 12, 2014)

JakeStarkey said:


> Fucking lie this: "If it weren't for Obama funding and supplying islamists(al nusra and isis) in Syria, this civil war in Iraq would not be occurring."  A great part of the problem are the 150 fighters that rejoined the jihadists after Bush released them.
> 
> We can't really slow them down, but Iraq is getting assistance and probably some troops very shortly from Iran.
> 
> Let's send Bush to The Hague now.


Do they have the jurisdictional competency to try him?


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## tinydancer (Jun 12, 2014)

Samson said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> > Pheonixops said:
> ...



Oh of course they are Sunni.

 But what was being posted earlier today was a spin that these guys that were beheading their way to Baghdad were Mohammed six pack Sunnis who just decided to take over a couple of towns yesterday. 



The spin didn't work.These terrorists are hard core and their leader did pull of conquering Tikrit and Mosul.


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## paulitician (Jun 12, 2014)

Obama was ill-advised on the Syrian conflict. He ended up funding & arming the animals who are now wreaking havoc in Iraq. Assad was the safer pick. Putin had it right. Much bloodier times are ahead over there. Even if Obama decides to bomb the Rebels, it won't solve the problem. The Sunni Rebels aren't going away. It is what it is.


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## tinydancer (Jun 12, 2014)

JakeStarkey said:


> Fucking lie this: "If it weren't for Obama funding and supplying islamists(al nusra and isis) in Syria, this civil war in Iraq would not be occurring."  A great part of the problem are the 150 fighters that rejoined the jihadists after Bush released them.
> 
> We can't really slow them down, but Iraq is getting assistance and probably some troops very shortly from Iran.
> 
> Let's send Bush to The Hague now.



Jake, Obama gave weaponry to the so called rebels for the non existent "Syrian Spring".

These so called rebels couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag and the big guns hit the ground running in Syria and took everything you gave them. Terrorists

They beat the snot out of them and the only one who is keeping these monsters at bay is Assad.

You know. The leader that Obama wanted so desperately removed from office his was willing to turn a blind eye to ISIS and Levant amassing a terrorist army that reportedly numbers 12,000 plus.

AND a big part of the narrative of this administration to get re elected was to declare AQ on the run, decimated and defeated.

Which we who don't suck on a certain part of the President's anatomy realized it was an unadulterated lie from the White House aka The Home of the Whopper.


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## tinydancer (Jun 12, 2014)

paulitician said:


> Obama was ill-advised on the Syrian conflict. He ended up funding & arming the animals who are now wreaking havoc in Iraq. Assad was the safer pick. Putin had it right. Much bloodier times are ahead over there. Even if Obama decides to bomb the Rebels, it won't solve the problem. The Sunni Rebels aren't going away. It is what it is.



I'm sitting here hoping to see a tweet from Assad to Obama. 

*I told you they were terrorists you asshole.*


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## paulitician (Jun 12, 2014)

tinydancer said:


> paulitician said:
> 
> 
> > Obama was ill-advised on the Syrian conflict. He ended up funding & arming the animals who are now wreaking havoc in Iraq. Assad was the safer pick. Putin had it right. Much bloodier times are ahead over there. Even if Obama decides to bomb the Rebels, it won't solve the problem. The Sunni Rebels aren't going away. It is what it is.
> ...



Putin tried to warn him in a reasonable & respectful manner. He told him these were not people he should fund & arm. But like Bush with Hussein, he was hell-bent on removing Assad. And now it's time for Blow Back. It's very sad.


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## TooTall (Jun 12, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> TooTall said:
> 
> 
> > NoTeaPartyPleez said:
> ...



The expense of keeping a small force in country is miniscule compared to 'kicking down the door" again.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 12, 2014)

TooTall said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > TooTall said:
> ...


Agreed.

But the political and economic costs associated with staying might prove very high as well.

And, of course, if we kick down the door again, without worrying about the nation-building afterwards, then the cost goes way down.


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## edthecynic (Jun 13, 2014)

Ravi said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...



The Right knows they are two different "Baghdadis," which is a fake name to begin with, AQ in Iraq calls ALL their leaders Baghdadi. Kill one Baghdadi and up pops another Baghdadi. The Baghdadi that was released in 2009 was killed in 2010. The Right knows this but the Right has to lie to breathe.


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## Chris (Jun 13, 2014)

Divide Iraq into Sunni, Shia, and Kurdish countries.

Just like we did with Yugoslavia.


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## edthecynic (Jun 13, 2014)

tinydancer said:


> *He was taken as a prisoner of the Americans in Camp Bucca between 2005* and 2009 - it was here that one of the only two photos know to be in existence was taken of him.
> 
> *'We either arrested or killed a man of that name about half a dozen times*, he is like a wraith who keeps reappearing, and I am not sure where fact and fiction meet,' said Lieutenant-General Sir Graeme Lamb, a former British special forces commander who helped US efforts against al-Qaeda in Iraq told The Telegraph.
> 
> *'There are those who want to promote the idea that this man is invincible, when it may actually be several people using the same nom de guerre.'*



His capture in 2005 is pure bullshit. At the end of October 2005 they claimed they killed him, so at the very least he was still free with only 2 months left in 2005. You know this, of course, because your own link admits there are many Baghdadis!!!

WebCite query result

US launches airstrike near Syrian border

10/26/2005 18:48 

A US warplane struck a suspected insurgent safe house near the Syrian border Wednesday and *may have killed a senior al-Qaida in Iraq figure* who assisted in smuggling Syrian and Saudi fighters into Iraq, the US military said. A military statement did not give details of the airstrike. But it said *intelligence sources indicated that the al-Qaida member, identified only as Abu Dua, was inside the house at the time of the attack. His body has not been recovered,* the military said. Abu Dua was part of a network that included al-Qaida figures in a network of towns along the Syrian border northwest of Baghdad, the statement added.


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## Synthaholic (Jun 13, 2014)

Steinlight said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > Steinlight said:
> ...


So covert?  If Susan Rice has to admit it, then it wasn't an announced policy, as I said.

From your first link:


*Its better than nothing*


While the State  Department is coordinating nonlethal aid, the CIA is overseeing the  delivery of weaponry and other lethal equipment to the rebels. An  opposition official, speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss  *covert arms transfers*, said U.S. intelligence personnel have begun  delivering long-promised *light weapons and ammunition* to rebel groups in  the past couple of weeks. 



 The weaponry doesnt solve all the  needs the guys have, but *its better than nothing, the opposition  official said. He added that Washington remains reluctant to give the  rebels what they most desire: antitank and antiaircraft weapons. *


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## bripat9643 (Jun 13, 2014)

Chris said:


> Divide Iraq into Sunni, Shia, and Kurdish countries.
> 
> Just like we did with Yugoslavia.



we didn't do shit with Yugoslavia.  The current borders were determined by a blood civil war that killed tens of thousands of people.


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## tinydancer (Jun 13, 2014)

edthecynic said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > tinydancer said:
> ...



You're calling David Ignatius a right wing liar now? You are getting desperate.


----------



## Synthaholic (Jun 13, 2014)

Mojo2 said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > Steinlight said:
> ...



No.  Saddam was no more deserving of being toppled than Mubarak, Assad (Sr.), Gaddafi, or any other Middle East strongman.  NeoCons who wanted access to those oil fields made him out to be Satan incarnate.


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## tinydancer (Jun 13, 2014)

Iran is vowing to end terrorism in Iraq. What do you think their rules of engagement are going to be?

I digress. back to Baghdadi. If he's dead like old Eddie is claiming why would America still have a 10 million dollar bounty on his head. And it is only speculation that there are several commanders using the same name. No proof whatsoever. And that is completely countered by other claims of one man leading this army of terrorists. 

Sorry Eddie to burst your left wing bubble....

*The organisation is led by Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, who has a U.S. bounty of $10million on his head, second only to al-Zawahiri.

The ISIS leader, who was born in 1971 in Baghdad, is touted as a battlefield commander and tactician.

Baghdadi, who has a degree in Islamic studies, apparently joined the insurgency that erupted in Iraq soon after the 2003 U.S.-led invasion.

He was taken as a prisoner of the Americans in Camp Bucca between 2005 and 2007 - it was here that one of the only two photos know to be in existence was taken of him.

He is known as 'The Ghost' to members of the pro-Assad Lebanese Shi-ite militia Hizballah.

The secretive Baghdadi talks with a scarf covering his face even when dealing with close allies, according to militants who worked with him in Iraq.

He addresses his ISIS followers through audio recordings posted to the internet, rather than in public places.

Military sources have reported his death on numerous occasions in the past years, but the fighter always seems to reappear. This has led to speculation that al-Baghdadi is in fact a name used jointly by several commanders.

Some estimates claim Isis group has in excess of 10,000 fighting men in its ranks. Many of its fighters are thought to be radicalised Western Muslims who have poured in from Europe and North American to join the fighting in Syria and elsewhere.

The group, which controls large areas of land in Syria, is thought to be pouring resources and money from those areas into its burgeoning Iraqi campaign, which has seen it tear through the northern regions on the country.*

ISIS militants march on Baghdad with a bullet in the head for anyone who gets in the way | Mail Online


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## Interpol (Jun 13, 2014)

I would not be in favor of lending any air or other support. 

It has been to our great detriment that we continue to stick our noses in the middle of a rampant sectarian civil war currently fighting itself out in the Middle East. 

It is absolutely pointless to send arms to one faction, only to see them be stolen by another faction or made unusable by our allies so that no one can use them. 

John McCain's idea of flying in 5000 troops is so preposterous as to be laughable. 

Any person who is for going in there a third friggin' time in 23 years is a person that has taken leave of logic and can't be taken seriously.


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## Siete (Jun 13, 2014)

tinydancer said:


> Iran is vowing to end terrorism in Iraq. What do you think their rules of engagement are going to be?
> 
> I digress. back to Baghdadi. If he's dead like old Eddie is claiming why would America still have a 10 million dollar bounty on his head.
> 
> ...




none of our business, NONE.


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## Synthaholic (Jun 13, 2014)

tinydancer said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> > Iranian Forces now in Iraq fighting radical islamist ISIS. You know its a messed up world when the Iranians are the good guys.
> ...



Once again for the slow readers:

Iraq refused a SOFA.  Look it up.

Maliki invited the Iranian Revolutionary Guard to Iraq.  Why?  Because he and his government are Shiites and so are the Iranians.


----------



## Synthaholic (Jun 13, 2014)

dilloduck said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> > PaintMyHouse said:
> ...


He was talking about the senior Assad.

Bashir Assad is just the punk son with an eye doctor's license.

Like Rand Paul.


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## tinydancer (Jun 13, 2014)

Synthaholic said:


> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...



Obama wanted all those other leaders gone. And he pushed to get rid of Mubarak and replace him with Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood. 

Thank heavens Egyptians came to their senses and tossed him. Libya is run by militias now that Obama forced Gaddafi out. It's a dog's breakfast.

He's still bitching like crazy over Assad and has tried every which way but loose to bump him from power. 

And most recently he backed the coup in Ukraine to force a duly elected leader and government from power.

So why not Saddam?

Just curious.


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## Interpol (Jun 13, 2014)

tinydancer said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > Mojo2 said:
> ...



Saddam worked out as a buffer between Iran and Syria. Saddam was not as terribly strong as everyone thought he was, but his public image campaign worked to convince us otherwise. He was dastardly and played a great poker hand as leader of Iraq. The whole region has been more destabilized since he got toppled. Who'd a thunk it? 

I think Obama was right about Iraq all along. We created a worse devil, but in the end, just like Vietnam, we can't just stay there forever. Those people have to fight for their own destinies. We should try to help in better ways than just sending arms to one faction.


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## edthecynic (Jun 13, 2014)

eagle1462010 said:


> According to articles I've read* 90,000 Iraqi Troops deserted.  If they refuse to fight for their own country even after we've armed them, then they are hopeless.*.............
> 
> Hopefully some of them will have enough back bone to fight back, but so far it doesn't appear so.



Exactly! Bush tried to train the Iraqi army and police for almost 6 years, nearly everything American blood and treasure had won was lost the first time Bush tried to turn over the fighting to the Iraqi army. Bush then spilled more American blood and wasted more treasure with the surge that took back all the territory the Iraqi army had lost, American soldiers are more than capable of defeating the terrorists. But after another 5 years of training the Iraqi army still can't hold the territory American blood and treasure have won.

After 11 years it should be obvious that the only way to hold Iraq is with American blood and treasure invested there forever! Do we want to spend American blood and treasure in Iraq for the next 100 years as McCain wanted to do, because that is what is required in Iraq?!!!!!


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## Siete (Jun 13, 2014)

Synthaholic said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> > Steinlight said:
> ...



allow me to help ..

In one of his final acts in office, President Bush in December of 2008 had signed a Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA) with the Iraqi government that set the clock ticking on ending the war hed launched in March of 2003. The SOFA provided a legal basis for the presence of U.S. forces in Iraq after the United Nations Security Council mandate for the occupation mission expired at the end of 2008. But it required that all U.S. forces be  gone from Iraq by January 1, 2012, unless the Iraqi government was willing to negotiate a new agreement that would extend their mandate.


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## I.P.Freely (Jun 13, 2014)

allow me to help.
*Iraq crisis: Sunni caliphate has been bankrolled by Saudi Arabia - Voices - The Independent*


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## edthecynic (Jun 13, 2014)

edthecynic said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> > *He was taken as a prisoner of the Americans in Camp Bucca between 2005* and 2009 - it was here that one of the only two photos know to be in existence was taken of him.
> ...





tinydancer said:


> Iran is vowing to end terrorism in Iraq. What do you think their rules of engagement are going to be?
> 
> I digress. back to Baghdadi. *If he's dead like old Eddie is claiming why would America still have a 10 million dollar bounty on his head.* And it is only speculation that there are several commanders using the same name. No proof whatsoever. And that is completely countered by other claims of one man leading this army of terrorists.
> 
> ...


First of all, it is the government who claims they blew him to bits at the end of October 2005, so many bits they could not find his body!!!

By the same token, if he was captured in 2005, why was the government still trying to kill him at the end of 2005????? He was obviously still at large on October 26, 2005.

Obviously the guy captured in 2005 and the guy with a $10 million bounty on his head are not the same guy!!!


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## tinydancer (Jun 13, 2014)

Synthaholic said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> > Steinlight said:
> ...



Obama was so hell bent for leather to bail out of Iraq he never negotiated to continue to keep a stabilizing force.

Yes the Iraq government has great ties with Iran. Of course they do. But Iraq has been begging the US since last year to please please please help them with ISIS and Levant.

Obama refused. I'm beginning to think he has a genuine hard on against Shiites.


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## tinydancer (Jun 13, 2014)

Have fun fellow posters. Calling it a day.


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## Politico (Jun 13, 2014)

Synthaholic said:


> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> > Grampa Murked U said:
> ...



If we're going to discuss this at least have the facts straight. Afghanistan was the one who flat out refused the SOFA. Obama never pressed Maliki. Instead he took advantage of the pull out agreement already in place from the prior administration. He brought them home and claimed it was his idea.


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## Remodeling Maidiac (Jun 13, 2014)

Funny the left here calls me an uninformed goper because I call the aggressors terrorists. Obama JUST NOW in a pressor called them.......... TERRORISTS


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## LogikAndReazon (Jun 13, 2014)

Just think of the social programs and infrastructure projects that could have been invested in here at home instead of wasted on the greedy military industrial complex....

Lol


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## Remodeling Maidiac (Jun 13, 2014)

LogikAndReazon said:


> Just think of the social programs and infrastructure projects that could have been invested in here at home instead of wasted on the greedy military industrial complex....
> 
> Lol



That is quite funny as we don't need anymore "social" programs.  And infrastructure is typically a local issue


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## Steinlight (Jun 13, 2014)

Synthaholic said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...


Glad you admit you were wrong and you admit they are giving weapons to Islamists. And glad you have the ability to click on a link, now click on the other links and you can learn about the heavy weaponry they were providing to Islamists as well. Even moderate forces admit that most of their weapons end up in the hands of Islamists, and that they are commanded by US/Saudi intelligence to do so. US Intelligence understands Islamists make up the most effective and largest contingent of rebels and don't want our weapons going to waste. They really made a deal with the devil to take out Assad. 

You are making progress yet. You are not as big of a retard as I previously thought. 

Covert? Who said anything about covert ? Its been so obvious and out in the open to anyone that bothers to look into the issue it is a wonder it took Susan Rice till a couple days ago to admit it. And it was a wonder it took until September 2013 for Wash Post to admit it it was going on long before that. Business Insider did a story in Spring 2013 where unnamed US officials admitted most of the weapons the CIA have bought/transferred are going to Islamists.
http://www.businessinsider.com/cia-weapons-going-to-jihadists-in-syria-2013-3


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## Synthaholic (Jun 13, 2014)

tinydancer said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > Mojo2 said:
> ...



If all you are going to do is lie, I'm just going to ignore your posts.

He never pushed for anything other than democratic elections in Egypt.  Which is what Bush always claimed was his goal: bringing democracy to the Middle East.

Sometimes the people vote for leaders who we don't like.  Too bad.


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## Synthaholic (Jun 13, 2014)

eagle1462010 said:


> *According to articles I've read 90,000 Iraqi Troops deserted.  If they refuse to fight for their own country even after we've armed them, then they are hopeless..............*
> 
> Hopefully some of them will have enough back bone to fight back, but so far it doesn't appear so.



More info has come out.

Shiite government forces have quit in some areas because they won't defend Sunni neighborhoods against these forces.  And Iraq, obviously, is full of Sunni neighborhoods.


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## Synthaholic (Jun 13, 2014)

edthecynic said:


> edthecynic said:
> 
> 
> > tinydancer said:
> ...


All Muslims look alike to tinydancer.


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## Steinlight (Jun 13, 2014)

An article by Haaretz, talking about the US shipping anti-tank missiles to these Islamist Syrian rebels. No doubt these arms are being used in the Iraq unrest right now as well.
U.S. ups aid to Syrian rebels, sending them missiles and guns - Diplomacy and Defense Israel News | Haaretz


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## candycorn (Jun 13, 2014)

Grampa Murked U said:


> The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
> Seems strange to me that we would spend all the money & lives just to let it fall in a matter of weeks/months.



Wash the hands.


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## Synthaholic (Jun 13, 2014)

tinydancer said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > tinydancer said:
> ...



Another lie.



> Yes the Iraq government has great ties with Iran. Of course they do. *But Iraq has been begging the US since last year to please please please help them with ISIS and Levant.*



Yes, they want our help but refuse legal protection for our troops.

It's a non-starter.


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## Synthaholic (Jun 13, 2014)

LogikAndReazon said:


> Just think of the social programs and infrastructure projects that could have been invested in here at home instead of wasted on the greedy military industrial complex....
> 
> Lol


Thank you for re-stating what Liberals have been saying for over 10 years.


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## JimH52 (Jun 13, 2014)

No, we cannot let ISIS take Iraq.  They will not stop there.  They are the most ruthless terrorist group and are even shunned by many Al-Qaeda affiliates.  They are brutal and cut throat.  We use drones to take out their convoys and we supply intelligence to the Iraq government.  If these people are allowed to continue, they could be standing on our doorstep in the near future.


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## Synthaholic (Jun 13, 2014)

Steinlight said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > Steinlight said:
> ...



Your own link, which I quoted!


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## BlindBoo (Jun 13, 2014)

TooTall said:


> NoTeaPartyPleez said:
> 
> 
> > Grampa Murked U said:
> ...



But ultimately, the Iraqis did insist that a new SOFA had to go through their parliament and they would not budge on the immunities issue, which made an extension of U.S. forces there impossible, Jeffrey said. He said the insistence on immunity was uniform inside the Obama administration.

Obama?s Iraq ambassador: I wanted troops to remain in Iraq


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## Synthaholic (Jun 13, 2014)

Awesome!  Re-live all the lies and ignorance of John McCain in a series of past clips.

Why anyone still pays McCain any attention is beyond me.


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASw7tXSBaLc#t=343]Chris Hayes: Senator McCain DESTROYS John McCAIN on IRAQ!!! Oops? Alzheimer's? - YouTube[/ame]


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## Steinlight (Jun 13, 2014)

Synthaholic said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...



OK, I got you, well it wasn't covert we were giving weapons to Islamists by the time the Wash Post got to it, and as the Business Insider article shows, Wash Post was about half a year late to the game on breaking that story.


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## Synthaholic (Jun 13, 2014)

Steinlight said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > Steinlight said:
> ...


Obviously there is a difference between the light arms the CIA was supplying and the anti-tank, etc. weapons which McCain and Senator Huckleberry Closetcase were pushing for.

Your article dates to last October, yet McCain has been on TV plenty of times since then complaining that Obama is not arming the rebels.


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## JimH52 (Jun 13, 2014)

tinydancer said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > tinydancer said:
> ...



You are very uninformed.  We had no choice but to get out of Iraq.  They refuse to give US soldiers immunity.  If we had stayed, we would have ended up with more US prisoners in Iraq prisons.

ISIS will be beaten, oddly enough by US drones, intelligence and Iranian boots on the ground.


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## JimH52 (Jun 13, 2014)

JimH52 said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...



Forgot this link...

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/05/w...unity-for-remaining-american-troops.html?_r=0


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## BlindBoo (Jun 13, 2014)

TemplarKormac said:


> Yeah. Obama wanted to end this war prematurely, and did. He ran on the fact that he brought the troops home in 2012. So, now he finds himself in a conundrum. Stick to his political rhetoric, or risk angering his base by helping the Iraqis.



All American military forces were mandated to withdraw from Iraqi territory by 31 December 2011 under the terms of a bilateral agreement *signed in 2008 by President Bush*. The last U.S. troops left Iraq on 18 December 2011.

Neither Bush nor Obama could get the Iraqis to agree to allowing our troops immunity from Iraqi laws.  Therefore no extension.


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## birddog (Jun 13, 2014)

BlindBoo said:


> TooTall said:
> 
> 
> > NoTeaPartyPleez said:
> ...



Maybe Obama should have forced the Iraq government to go by our rules.  No, he's too chickenshit!  Obama caves to all muslims.


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## Desperado (Jun 13, 2014)

We should do our best Pontius Pilate impersonation and wash our hand of the whole middle east.
Iraq had their say and told us to get out.  We gave them what they wanted they are seeing the results.
After all the material and training we gave their army they gave up without a fight.   
No more American Blood or Money should be wasted in that part of the world.  
Just another prediction, when we leave Afghanistan the same thing will happen there too.


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## Steinlight (Jun 13, 2014)

Synthaholic said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...


 Well, it is a step in the right direction. first you said they weren't arming weapons, now you are saying, "well there is a difference between small arms and anti-tank weapons, small arms to Islamist terrorists don't count, really!". There is a difference between them, definitely, but they provide both small arms and heavy weaponry(anti-tank as you said)if you bothered reading the links. The TIME, Haaretz, and RT links more specifically.


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## Synthaholic (Jun 13, 2014)

birddog said:


> BlindBoo said:
> 
> 
> > TooTall said:
> ...


How would he do that, dope?

Bush turned the sovereignty back to the Iraqis.  Which was a mistake while we were still fighting a war.  But he wanted all those purple fingers as a publicity and public relations stunt.


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## paulitician (Jun 13, 2014)

I think the consensus is 'wash our hands.' Cut our losses and move on. Iranian Troops are now in Iraq fighting alongside Iraqi Government Troops. And that's pretty disturbing in itself. 

So what did the American People get out of the Iraq War?...

Massive Debt, too many funerals, and a more powerful Iran and Al Qaeda.


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## Steinlight (Jun 13, 2014)

Steinlight said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > Steinlight said:
> ...



will post the heavy weaponry links again here.

Syrian rebels seen firing U.S.-made weapons raises questions - TIME
U.S. ups aid to Syrian rebels, sending them missiles and guns - Diplomacy and Defense Israel News | Haaretz
http://rt.com/usa/us-syria-moderate-opposition-weapons-921/

And yes, you are right, both the democrats and republicans(neo-libs and neo-cons) are complicit in the crimes against Syria.


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## paulitician (Jun 13, 2014)

Grampa Murked U said:


> Funny the left here calls me an uninformed goper because I call the aggressors terrorists. Obama JUST NOW in a pressor called them.......... TERRORISTS



Yes, this group is considered an Al Qaeda-linked Terrorist group. It's connected with other Terrorist groups fighting in Syria. Unfortunately, the same groups our Government has been funding & arming in Syria. This is the Blow Back on that. Obama blew that one. He should have listened to Putin. Assad was the safer play. Putin told him these are not people he should be funding & arming. But for some reason Obama became hell-bent on getting rid of Assad. It is eerily similar to Bush's obsession with getting rid of Hussein. 

The fact is, our nation is better off with Assad staying in power. And it would have been better off with Saddam Hussein staying in power as well. The Blow Back for our meddling is much worse. That's being proven right now.


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## BlindBoo (Jun 13, 2014)

Steinlight said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > Fucking lie this: "If it weren't for Obama funding and supplying islamists(al nusra and isis) in Syria, this civil war in Iraq would not be occurring."  A great part of the problem are the 150 fighters that rejoined the jihadists after Bush released them.
> ...



From your first link.  Didn't bother with the rest.

"The arms shipments, which are limited to light weapons and other munitions that can be tracked..."

"U.S. officials hope that, taken together, the weapons and gear will boost the profile and prowess of rebel fighters in a conflict that started about 2-1 / 2 years ago."

"The delays prompted several senior U.S. lawmakers to chide the Obama administration for not moving more quickly to aid the Syrian opposition after promising lethal assistance in June."

"The latest effort to provide aid is aimed at supporting rebel fighters who are under the command of Gen. Salim Idriss, according to officials, some of whom spoke on the condition of anonymity because part of the initiative is covert. Idriss is the commander of the Supreme Military Council, a faction of the disjointed armed opposition."


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## Slyhunter (Jun 13, 2014)

Napalm Islamic terrorists wherever you find them.


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## Steinlight (Jun 13, 2014)

BlindBoo said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> > JakeStarkey said:
> ...



Of course you don't bother with the other links. You just did the same thing synthaholic did. Small arms to islamists don't count as REAL weapons in your deluded mind. Interesting your not bothered by the giving weapons to Islamists part, you are just saying, well it's not as bad as it could be, we could be giving terrorist REAL weapons. And you won't read the other links that challenge your worldview, that things other than small arms(which would count as weapons in your mind) are being given to Islamists.

You are intellectually lazy and dishonest.


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## depotoo (Jun 13, 2014)

I hear they are beheading  along their way to Baghdad.


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## Kosh (Jun 13, 2014)

The far left wished failure for Iraq and they are getting what they wished for.


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## paulitician (Jun 13, 2014)

Kosh said:


> The far left wished failure for Iraq and they are getting what they wished for.



I do have to admit there is some truth in your statement. The Left/Democrats have rooted for failure in Iraq all along. Obviously they'll deny it, but they know it's true. It was always about getting their mean ole BOOOOOOOSH Boogeyman. It's always 'Party before Country' for them.


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## Rotagilla (Jun 13, 2014)

Mercs in trouble.
I wonder if they're Academi?

200 U.S. contractors surrounded by jihadists in Iraq

NEW YORK &#8211; About 200 Americans under contract with the Department of Defense at Balad Air Force Base in Iraq are trapped by the al-Qaida-inspired jihadists who have seized control of two cities and are now threatening Baghdad, according to WND sources.

The sources, private contractors who have recently returned to the U.S. from Iraq, said Friday their former colleagues effectively have been abandoned by the U.S. military and are fighting for their lives against an army of jihadists surrounding the base who belong to the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria, or ISIS.

The U.S. contractors are at Balad to help the Pentagon prepare the facilities for the delivery of the F-16 aircraft the Obama administration has agreed to provide the Iraqi government.

The surrounded Americans said they currently are under ISIS fire from small arms, AK47s, and rocket propelled grenades, or RPGs.

The contractors so far have been able to hold the base, but those on the scene reported it was only a matter of time before the ISIS terrorists succeed in breaking through the perimeter. They expressed concern that they would be ab

WND has learned from sources that the jihadists have closed down escape routes, and the U.S. Air Force is in a stand-down position. U.S. forces are not assisting even with air cover so a private extradition flight could land for a rescue, the sources said.


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## BlindBoo (Jun 13, 2014)

tinydancer said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > tinydancer said:
> ...



Leather and lies.

Jeffrey was a key player on both the Washington and Baghdad sides of the 2011 negotiations that were meant to agree on a follow on force to extend the Bush administration's Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA) after it was set to expire last December. Those negotiations ultimately failed. The White House has said the Iraqis refused to grant immunity for U.S. troops in Iraq after 2011 and submit a new SOFA through their own parliament, two things the United States needed to extend the troops' mission.

Obama?s Iraq ambassador: I wanted troops to remain in Iraq


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## georgephillip (Jun 13, 2014)

Kosh said:


> The far left wished failure for Iraq and they are getting what they wished for.


The far left filled the streets of the world with millions of demonstrators opposed to the US invasion of Iraq.

Where were you?


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## Steinlight (Jun 13, 2014)

Rotagilla said:


> Mercs in trouble.
> I wonder if they're Academi?
> 
> 200 U.S. contractors surrounded by jihadists in Iraq
> ...



So much for no american troops in Iraq.

If they are private mercs they don't count, right guys?


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## BlindBoo (Jun 13, 2014)

Politico said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > Mojo2 said:
> ...



Jeffrey was a key player on both the Washington and Baghdad sides of the *2011 negotiations that were meant to agree on a follow on force to extend the Bush administration's Status of Forces Agreement *(SOFA) after it was set to expire last December. Those negotiations ultimately failed. The White House has said the Iraqis refused to grant immunity for U.S. troops in Iraq after 2011 and submit a new SOFA through their own parliament, two things the United States needed to extend the troops' mission.

Obama?s Iraq ambassador: I wanted troops to remain in Iraq


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## Katzndogz (Jun 13, 2014)

It will give obama an excuse to release more terrorists.


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## paulitician (Jun 13, 2014)

Steinlight said:


> Rotagilla said:
> 
> 
> > Mercs in trouble.
> ...



I've always said we're not leaving Iraq or Afghanistan. There will always be bases in both nations. But the dupes are always quick to express scorn at that notion. They're the true believers. They truly believe we're leaving and that's that. But that's never the case. We're there and we'll be there for a long time.


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## georgephillip (Jun 13, 2014)

Rotagilla said:


> Mercs in trouble.
> I wonder if they're Academi?
> 
> 200 U.S. contractors surrounded by jihadists in Iraq
> ...


*From your link:*

"Balad Air Force Base has been under attack since Wednesday, when ISIS rebels seized the nearby town of Tikrit, the birthplace of Saddam Hussein.

"The attacking ISIS forces approached Balad Air Force Base in trucks and called through loudspeakers for all private security forces and Iraqi special military to leave immediately or die.

"The U.S. private contractors in touch with WND reported that after hearing the broadcast, the private security forces and the Iraqi military defending the base dropped their weapons and ran.

"The American contractors collected the weapons the fleeing private security forces and Iraqi military left behind and were able to hold off further immediate advances.

200 U.S. contractors surrounded by jihadists in Iraq

*Do we know the nationalities of the American contractors?*


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## Derideo_Te (Jun 13, 2014)

Grampa Murked U said:


> The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
> Seems strange to me that we would spend all the money & lives just to let it fall in a matter of weeks/months.



We should never have invaded Iraq in the first place. That was a mistake. Getting involved again would just be another mistake. 

The Middle East is not a sandbox for the USA to play in whenever it feels the urge. It is a vipers nest of centuries long feuds. Let them work out their own destiny. If it means we all pay a higher price for gas then sobeit. That is still a pittance compared to the $2 trillion we wasted the last time the "War President" decided that he knew better than history.


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## Rotagilla (Jun 13, 2014)

Steinlight said:


> Rotagilla said:
> 
> 
> > Mercs in trouble.
> ...



Wait..My mistake. 

The article called them "contractors".

I'm the one that said "mercs"..We have no proof they are mercs...they're probably just cooks, clerks and truck drivers.....


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## BlindBoo (Jun 13, 2014)

birddog said:


> BlindBoo said:
> 
> 
> > TooTall said:
> ...



So President Obama should have just disregarded the agreement signed by President Bush?


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## paulitician (Jun 13, 2014)

Looks like Iran is seizing on this opportunity. Their troops are pouring in Iraq. And there's nothing we can do about it. All Obama can do now is help Iran and the Iranian-backed Iraqi Government. He can't allow the Al Qaeda Rebels to win there. So it's become a very nasty Catch 22 of us. It's No-Win scenario for Americans. More ugly Blow Back.


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## Rotagilla (Jun 13, 2014)

georgephillip said:


> Rotagilla said:
> 
> 
> > Mercs in trouble.
> ...



First sentence in the article;

*NEW YORK  About 200 Americans under contract with the Department of Defense at Balad Air Force Base in Iraq are trapped by the al-Qaida-inspired jihadists who have seized control of two cities and are now threatening Baghdad, according to WND sources.*


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## Steinlight (Jun 13, 2014)

Rotagilla said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> > Rotagilla said:
> ...



Tough ass cooks and clerks they are, apparently they are tougher than the Iraqi army if they are holding their base.

It's like they have combat training or something, oh never mind, nothing to see hear Obama says there are no troops in Iraq.


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## francoHFW (Jun 13, 2014)

Let our new ally Iran handle it...stupidest war ever!


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## georgephillip (Jun 13, 2014)

Rotagilla said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > Rotagilla said:
> ...


Are they US citizens or Mexicans or Salvadorians or Colombians?


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## paulitician (Jun 13, 2014)

francoHFW said:


> Let our new ally Iran handle it...stupidest war ever!



Yup, Iran is seizing the moment. Their Troops are pouring in. And they're invited guests. The big winners in this tragic mess are Iran and Al Qaeda. Should have left ole Saddam in there. Now we have to deal with the ugly Blow Back for our meddling. So sad.


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## BlindBoo (Jun 13, 2014)

Steinlight said:


> BlindBoo said:
> 
> 
> > Steinlight said:
> ...



I didn't say I didn't read them Zippy, I just didn't bother quoting each one.  Not one connected US to intentionally arming the ISIS, period.  You're counting on lazy folks who see your multiple posts of the exact same thing as true without checking.


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## Rotagilla (Jun 13, 2014)

georgephillip said:


> Rotagilla said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...



What? You're trying to be funny?
North, Central, or South?
Very clever. 

How the flip do you expect me to know?
It says Americans. I don't know how many are from Montana, I don't know how many of them have brown hair, I don't know their education, military experience, age, marital status, what kind of car they drive, I don't know if they're naturalized or native born.......All I know is the article says 200 "Americans"


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## georgephillip (Jun 13, 2014)

Rotagilla said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > Rotagilla said:
> ...


The point I'm trying to make is simply this: if they are US citizens as opposed to "hired guns" from South or Central America, Obama will pay a much higher political price for letting them die.


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## paulitician (Jun 13, 2014)

Blow Back on this is getting even uglier. The Kurds have now seized the oil-rich city Kirkuk. They will likely declare their Independence in the near future. And that will lead to all-out War with Turkey. 

Do Americans still want this aggressive Foreign Interventionism? I can't see why they would. Look what all our meddling has caused. It's a real shame.


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## Rotagilla (Jun 13, 2014)

georgephillip said:


> Rotagilla said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...




Oh?
Are there a lot of mercs from mexico, central america and/or south america  working for the u.s.in Iraq?

I think Academi, for example (and others) is WELL known for having "operators" in the ME/Iraq.


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## Steinlight (Jun 13, 2014)

BlindBoo said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> > BlindBoo said:
> ...



Didn't bother with them is different didn't bother quoting. But the point is, if you read those, and keep holding your line we aren't arming islamists, than you are a bold faced liar covering for the administration. 
CIA Weapons Going To Jihadists in Syria - Business Insider
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/15/w...rms-sent-to-syrian-rebels.html?pagewanted=all
http://www.businessinsider.com/us-arming-jihadists-syria-2012-10

some more articles.

You can't spin this away, weapons are going from America to Islamists in Syria(including ISIS), and they are using these weapons to overthrow the Iraqi Government. More US intervention leading to blowback. Typical consequence of neo-con-neo-lib intervention.


----------



## paulitician (Jun 13, 2014)

Looks like the Kurds and Iran are making their moves. Things are gonna get much uglier over there. What an awful mess.


----------



## Remodeling Maidiac (Jun 13, 2014)

I'm a bit confused.  It's being reported that 3 battalions from IRAN are going in to fight FOR the government of Iraq.


----------



## georgephillip (Jun 13, 2014)

Rotagilla said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > Rotagilla said:
> ...


*I'll have to research this to be sure; however, it's widely believed on the left that when the US pulled its troops from Iraq the security burden fell to private contractors who recruited heavily outside the US. Academi, for example, has been criticized by these sources for hiring from the Colombian Armed Forces. 

I can't imagine Obama could get away with allowing 200 US citizens of any ethnicity to be killed or captured by ISIL.
*

"US companies were Thursday evacuating hundreds of Americans working with the Iraqi government from a major air base, US officials said, as Islamic militants swept towards Baghdad. 

"A US defense official confirmed that 'a few hundred' American contractors from Balad air base, 80 kilometers (50 miles) north of the capital, were being moved to Baghdad for security reasons.

Americans Evacuated From Balad Near Baghdad - Business Insider


----------



## Rotagilla (Jun 13, 2014)

georgephillip said:


> Rotagilla said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...



I agree with all of that.
There are a lot of brit mercs as well. Who knows?
All I was going by was it said "American contractors"


----------



## emilynghiem (Jun 13, 2014)

Grampa Murked U said:


> I have mixed feelings on this.
> 
> On one hand the middle east is a cesspool of savages and I just wish they would all kill each other off.
> 
> ...



To sort out who's who, we need and should have always listened to the people at the bottom not the political leaders at the top.

The local clergy, nonprofits, community and academic leaders closest to the people
are who should be organized and consulted to reinforce them. The ones who have been serving the people during crisis and warfare, not benefitting off the war and contracts.

The people holding the nation and populations together are the ones
who KNOW what they need and don't need to protect their democratic citizenry.

The peace and justice networks worldwide tend to know who is who,
and who is a fake and who is "funding terrorists to take over so they can benefit politically from the collapse."

The military who have been building or rebuilding infrastructure who have good working relations with the local leadership
should also be able to use those contacts to reinforce the REAL representation of the Iraqi people, not the oppressors in the way.

Remember those people are victims also of the same terrorist militants taking over and hijacking control of the govt and country.

We have to stop this trend of "collectively punishing" the innocent victims and civilian populations along with the terrorists and political hacks who are the real problem.

There are more good people than bad. We don't need to wipe out a whole country just to get to the political hijackers.  
We need to listen to the people at the bottom who know who is really in charge of protecting their lives and democratic interests, and reinforce THOSE relations and institutions.

I guess the reason our political leaders can't do this very well, is that we politically punish "whole parties and populations" of our own citizens to retaliate against the corrupt party leaders.
I guess it will take community leaders in both countries, not the political leaders, who work from the bottom up not the top down, to stop this collective punishment by whole groups.


----------



## Derideo_Te (Jun 13, 2014)

Grampa Murked U said:


> I'm a bit confused.  It's being reported that 3 battalions from IRAN are going in to fight FOR the government of Iraq.



Why is that confusing?


----------



## Desperado (Jun 13, 2014)

Rotagilla said:


> Mercs in trouble.
> I wonder if they're Academi?
> 
> 200 U.S. contractors surrounded by jihadists in Iraq
> ...



Maybe they can make it to our US Embassy in Iraq?  You know the one: At 440,000 square meters, it is the largest and most expensive embassy in the world and is nearly as large as Vatican City. It employs 15,000 people and cost $750 million to build.  
Looks like even that is on shaky ground.


----------



## Samson (Jun 13, 2014)

Derideo_Te said:


> Grampa Murked U said:
> 
> 
> > I'm a bit confused.  It's being reported that 3 battalions from IRAN are going in to fight FOR the government of Iraq.
> ...



Grampa is living in 1985.


----------



## Samson (Jun 13, 2014)

Desperado said:


> Rotagilla said:
> 
> 
> > Mercs in trouble.
> ...



Hope the embassador makes it this time......Obama doesn't need another failure to protect american diplomats.


----------



## BlindBoo (Jun 13, 2014)

Steinlight said:


> BlindBoo said:
> 
> 
> > Steinlight said:
> ...



The spin is all yours.  These are old stories.  Weapons are going to Islamist in Syria via Qatar and Saudi Arabia.   Despite the CIA's precaution several groups we don't want to are still getting weapons.  Nothing to suggest that the arming of ISIS was the goal of the US Government.  Some of the weapons are from Croatia according to one of those I think.  But I'm not surprised that our "Friends" in Saudi Arabia would try and stab us in the back again but you've got to expect shit like that when you're the worlds leading exporter of weapons..........We've sold lot of Weapons to the House of Saud haven't we?


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## paulitician (Jun 13, 2014)

Grampa Murked U said:


> I'm a bit confused.  It's being reported that 3 battalions from IRAN are going in to fight FOR the government of Iraq.



Yeah, they've been invited in. They're gonna try to hold Baghdad. Iran is really enjoying this. They've been given a gift. It's a sad Catch 22 for us over there. Who do you support in this mess?...Iran and the Iranian-backed Iraqi Government, or the Sunni Al Qaeda-led Rebels? Pretty bad choice. It's a No-Win scenario for Americans. 

And now the Kurds are making their move too. They've taken the oil-rich city of Kirkuk. Once they declare Independence, it'll be all-out War with Turkey. So the Blow Back is gonna get even worse over there. It's very sad.


----------



## GHook93 (Jun 13, 2014)

Grampa Murked U said:


> The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
> Seems strange to me that we would spend all the money & lives just to let it fall in a matter of weeks/months.



No!!! We should hope that Iran steps in and takes on Al Qaeda. Then Al Qaeda declares jihad on Iran and then hopefully they kill many of each other!


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## depotoo (Jun 13, 2014)

Steinlight said:


> Rotagilla said:
> 
> 
> > Mercs in trouble.
> ...



Why does this remind me of Benghazi?


----------



## Political Junky (Jun 13, 2014)

No


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## Chris (Jun 13, 2014)

Iraq needs to be broken up into separate countries, just like we did with Yugoslavia.

One for the Shia, one for the Sunni, and one for the Kurds.


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## depotoo (Jun 13, 2014)

News is they hit a bank on the way to Baghdad and got themselves $400,000,000 cash.  400 million.


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## Dot Com (Jun 13, 2014)

Chris said:


> Iraq needs to be broken up into separate countries, just like we did with Yugoslavia.
> 
> One for the Shia, one for the Sunni, and one for the Kurds.



yep, I called for that years ago as did one or two pols. Thing is ALL of them want Kirkuk so thats why all, but the kurds, are in no hurry to separate


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## Rotagilla (Jun 13, 2014)

Chris said:


> Iraq needs to be broken up into separate countries, just like we did with Yugoslavia.
> 
> One for the Shia, one for the Sunni, and one for the Kurds.





Who is "we"?


----------



## Pheonixops (Jun 13, 2014)

Steinlight said:


> Pheonixops said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...



I don't think that we should have sent anything to those rebels, I feel that more times than not, Our intervention backfires on us.  How do you get an ISIS connection from this:
" The US is &#8220;the single largest contributor of humanitarian assistance, providing over $1.7 billion&#8221; in assistance, Rice told CNN.

&#8220;T*hat&#8217;s why the United States has ramped up its support for the moderate vetted opposition*, providing lethal and nonlethal support where we can to support both the civilian opposition and the military opposition,&#8221; she said. "

The rest of the article is pretty damning if it's true.

I agree that we should stay out of it. I agree that we should not be funding ANYBODY over there.


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## Kondor3 (Jun 13, 2014)

Iraq is already FUBAR, people.






Step away.

Wash your hands.

Wait to see who's the _Last Man Standing_, after this particular tidal-wave of Islamic violence finds its level.


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## kaz (Jun 13, 2014)

Chris said:


> Iraq needs to be broken up into separate countries, just like we did with Yugoslavia.
> 
> One for the Shia, one for the Sunni, and one for the Kurds.



Try to draw that map...


----------



## Pheonixops (Jun 13, 2014)

Steinlight said:


> Pheonixops said:
> 
> 
> > tinydancer said:
> ...



I'm an American and I am not ignorant; I care more for Our country than I care for the country of Iraq. It's all not due to the current Administration's "interventionist policy", this is a conglomeration of this Administration's and the previous Administration's "interventionist policy". If your nightmare scenario happens and they try to come at us, I am all in favor of stomping a mud hole in their asses without ay type of "nation building".  If you are so 'concerned about that situation, why would you basically say the same thing that I am saying  below?



Steinlight said:


> *The only thing we should do is stay out of it and pull funding for the islamist  rebels now pouring into Iraq from Syria.* If we can stem the flow of weapons to these radicals they might be able to be neutralized once and for all by the Iraqi  and Syrian Governments.





My only addition was to let them kill each other and if anyone is left who wants to harm us, we'll take care of them. There are Shiite, Sunni, Wahabbists, etc. that have no good feelings for Our country.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 13, 2014)

kaz said:


> Chris said:
> 
> 
> > Iraq needs to be broken up into separate countries, just like we did with Yugoslavia.
> ...


Kurds to the North...

Shiites in the Middle...

Sunnis in the South?


----------



## Rotagilla (Jun 13, 2014)

email the state department. There's still time to avert this crisis.


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## Care4all (Jun 13, 2014)

Let Iraq and Iran duke it out?  That would keep Iran busy for a while, no?


----------



## georgephillip (Jun 13, 2014)

kaz said:


> Chris said:
> 
> 
> > Iraq needs to be broken up into separate countries, just like we did with Yugoslavia.
> ...


*Lt. Colonel Ralph Peters already has*







"The map of the 'New Middle East' was a key element in the retired Lieutenant-Colonel&#8217;s book, Never Quit the Fight, which was released to the public on July 10, 2006. 

"This map of a redrawn Middle East was also published, under the title of Blood Borders: How a better Middle East would look, in the U.S. military&#8217;s Armed Forces Journal with commentary from Ralph Peters.5

"It should be noted that Lieutenant-Colonel Peters was last posted to the Office of the Deputy Chief of Staff for Intelligence, within the U.S. Defence Department, and has been one of the Pentagon&#8217;s foremost authors with numerous essays on strategy for military journals and U.S. foreign policy.

"It has been written that Ralph Peters&#8217; 'four previous books on strategy have been highly influential in government and military circles,' but one can be pardoned for asking if in fact quite the opposite could be taking place. 

"Could it be Lieutenant-Colonel Peters is revealing and putting forward what Washington D.C. and its strategic planners have anticipated for the Middle East?

"The concept of a redrawn Middle East has been presented as a 'humanitarian' and 'righteous' arrangement that would benefit the people(s) of the Middle East and its peripheral regions. According to Ralph Peter&#8217;s:

"'International borders are never completely just. But the degree of injustice they inflict upon those whom frontiers force together or separate makes an enormous difference &#8212; often the difference between freedom and oppression, tolerance and atrocity, the rule of law and terrorism, or even peace and war.'"

Plans for Redrawing the Middle East: The Project for a ?New Middle East? | Global Research


----------



## Rotagilla (Jun 13, 2014)

georgephillip said:


> kaz said:
> 
> 
> > Chris said:
> ...



Randomly drawing borders after WWI is part of the problem. The whole area used to be "Persia".

No ME nation is going to allow america...or anyone else.... to redraw their borders.


----------



## JakeStarkey (Jun 13, 2014)

*Should we lend air support *

No, Iran is going to intervene with Iraqi acquiescence to prevent Baghdad falling.

Let them bleed the pan-jihadist beat.

The bushies fucked up, and we have no need to jump back in.


----------



## Steinlight (Jun 13, 2014)

BlindBoo said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> > BlindBoo said:
> ...


Wrong, we have now proof in those links of US/Saudi intelligence encouraging Syrian Free Army to hand over weapons to more effective rebel Islamists(ISIS and Al Nusra), we have evidence of the US under Obama giving weapons to Saudi Arabia and Qatar knowing they give them to Islamists(ISIS and Al Nusra), the the CIA is helping move and fund Saudi/Qatari Weapons into Syria, and the Islamists(Al Nusra and ISIS) are seizing US weapons stores initially given to moderates.

So Obama's reckless intervention on the side of known Islamists in Syria is what brought us to this point. Certainly Bush shares blame for toppling Saddam and replacing it with a weak central government. But Obama bears the responsibility for putting the weak Iraqi state into a situation where it cant adequately defend itself against ISIS. 

Sorry, can't just blame Bush here, or deflect to the Saudis, the current American government shares as much  blame, and you won't get away with obfuscating the situation by pretending Obama is some anti-war peacenick. He is as much of a rabid interventionist as the others and is experiencing what we call blowback. 

The only major politician that opposed the Syrian intervention before leaving the house was Ron Paul and to a lesser extent Rand Paul. They warned arming islamists could destabilize the region and they were right. They were the only ones who were right on both counts. The Pauls not only opposed intervention in Iraq but also in Syria.


----------



## georgephillip (Jun 13, 2014)

JakeStarkey said:


> *Should we lend air support *
> 
> No, Iran is going to intervene with Iraqi acquiescence to prevent Baghdad falling.
> 
> ...


Should we make all congressional incumbents who voted for the invasion of Iraq pay at the polls next November?


----------



## Steinlight (Jun 13, 2014)

Good on Iran. They have been a great example of a power trying to bring stability to the region by fighting these radical sunni islamists in Syria and now Iraq.


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## georgephillip (Jun 13, 2014)

Rotagilla said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > kaz said:
> ...


If you find Wesley Clark credible, he laid out a Pentagon plan that was already decided upon in November of 2001; it called for regime change in seven Muslim states in five years, starting with Iraq then Lebanon, Libya, Syria, Sudan, Somalia, and finishing off with Iran.

The US launched the invasion of Iraq in 2003, and three years later Israel invaded Lebanon, probably with the intention of occupying the neighboring country as far north as the Litani river. This was something the IDF had accomplished in the past; however, in 2006 Hezbollah was able to repel the invasion.

The Arab Spring kicked off in Tunisia and Egypt, and then NATO took care of Libya.
Last August, Obama couldn't deliver regime change in Syria.
The poll on this board was something like 95% against military action.

I'm pretty sure what we're seeing today in Iraq, Syria, and Iran is a plan to redraw those borders regardless of the cost in human suffering.

*"The 'New Middle East' project was introduced publicly by Washington and Tel Aviv with the expectation that Lebanon would be the pressure point for realigning the whole Middle East and thereby unleashing the forces of 'constructive chaos.' 

"This 'constructive chaos' which generates conditions of violence and warfare throughout the region would in turn be used so that the United States, Britain, and Israel could redraw the map of the Middle East in accordance with their geo-strategic needs and objectives."*

Plans for Redrawing the Middle East: The Project for a ?New Middle East? | Global Research


----------



## JakeStarkey (Jun 13, 2014)

georgephillip said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > *Should we lend air support *
> ...



Everyone who voted for invading Iraq should go, dem and repub, that are still in Congress, yes.

We have no business or interest to fly air cover for a joint Iraq Iran defense of Baghdad.

This insanity is where Bush's stupid information and the Congress's gutless decision led us.


----------



## georgephillip (Jun 13, 2014)

JakeStarkey said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > JakeStarkey said:
> ...


And we probably haven't seen the worst of it yet.
We are creating literally hundreds of thousands of enemies across the Muslim world, and the blowback from that could bring much of the misery we see today in Iraq and Syria home with a vengence.
If we see another 911 attack on the homeland, we can probably say "goodbye" to what's left of our civil rights and our republic. 
Three hundred million guns are loaded...Satan cries "take aim."


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## U2Edge (Jun 13, 2014)

Grampa Murked U said:


> The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
> Seems strange to me that we would spend all the money & lives just to let it fall in a matter of weeks/months.



Absolutely the United States and other countries should help. Why let a terrorist organization like ISIS win and threaten the world. Don't make the mistake that the United States did in Vietnam and abandon a country to tyranny.


----------



## Katzndogz (Jun 13, 2014)

U2Edge said:


> Grampa Murked U said:
> 
> 
> > The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
> ...



We don't have the leadership to do anything.   obama cannot put together a coalition of forces.   No one trusts him.  obama decapitated our own military leaders by firing over 300 generals and commanders in a competency purge.


----------



## georgephillip (Jun 13, 2014)

U2Edge said:


> Grampa Murked U said:
> 
> 
> > The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
> ...


Greatest Purveyor of Violence in the World, remember?
Why would you think more killing, maiming, and displacing will solve the problem created by the USofA?


----------



## JakeStarkey (Jun 13, 2014)

Katzndogz said:


> U2Edge said:
> 
> 
> > Grampa Murked U said:
> ...



Katzndogz is not telling you that our allies fear, hate, and distrust America's far right, the very folks like Katzndogz.

Our allies want to make sure our far right has nothing to do with foreign policy making.

Damn right.


----------



## Katzndogz (Jun 13, 2014)

JakeStarkey said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> > U2Edge said:
> ...



No one is talking to obama.   Even David Cameron told him no.  

We don't have any allies.


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## Steinlight (Jun 13, 2014)

Iran is a agent of stability in the region, the US, Saudi, and the Gulf States are agents of chaos(who have created Frankenstein monster in ISIS they lost control of). Who would have thought considering the mainstream media narrative about Iran.


----------



## deltex1 (Jun 13, 2014)

tinydancer said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > > If they are fighting each other, they aren't focusing on US. Let them  handle their own business or let them request help from the UN and let  OTHER countries "help" them. We need a break and WE need to focus on  America first.
> ...


How hard is it to kill Baghdadi?..


----------



## JakeStarkey (Jun 13, 2014)

Katzndogz said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > Katzndogz said:
> ...



Because he is afraid of our neo-cons and folks like you, not Obama.


----------



## JakeStarkey (Jun 13, 2014)

Steinlight said:


> Iran is a agent of stability in the region, the US, Saudi, and the Gulf States are agents of chaos(who have created Frankenstein monster in ISIS they lost control of). Who would have thought considering the mainstream media narrative about Iran.



Iran will help Iraq save Baghdad.  But make no mistake, the shia are every bit as evil as the sunni.


----------



## U2Edge (Jun 13, 2014)

georgephillip said:


> U2Edge said:
> 
> 
> > Grampa Murked U said:
> ...



The United States made the region more stable. The United States made Kuwait safer than it has been in a generation. The United States brought the killings and instability in Iraq down and got it under control. Then Obama failed to follow through and withdrew troops prematurely. Still Iraq was able to hold on for over 2 years despite essentially being abandoned by the Obama administration. 

         Sending in around 10,000 U.S. troops, special forces, advisors and forward observers to work with the Iraqi military in the south near Baghdad and the Kurdish military in the north near Mosul and Kirkuk combined with U.S. airpower and drone capabilities would gradually bring the situation back under control and allow many of the 500,000 people to return home. The Kurds should be given responsibility for security in Mosul and Kirkuk from here on out given how far behind the Iraqi military has fallen in its training and cohesion. The Iraqi's and work on Al Anbar, Diyala and Salihadin Provinces. The border between Syria and Iraq, while it can never be sealed, needs to be less permeable and concerted effort should be made to stop the flow of weapons terrorist across the border in both directions. 

           A lot of good, can come from the correct use of a small amount of military force in a relatively short amount of time. Make no mistake, the war will continue, but this highly risky episode of the past week can be made history, if the President is willing to take decisive action, which unfortunately he has been unable to for several years now. The President has the means to restore the conflict to where it was a few months ago which would benefit millions of people given the current situation. The question is, will he do it?


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## JakeStarkey (Jun 13, 2014)

"The United States brought the killings and instability in Iraq down and got it under control. Then Obama failed to follow through and withdrew troops prematurely."

Lying narrative^.  We lost any chance of stabilizing Iraq as our long time enemy when the administration invaded with the less than 200,000 troops, 1/2 of what Shenseki would be required to permanently stabilize the country and win the peace.

Only in the surge did Bush increase to 400,000 the number of troops, mercenaries, and contractors.  The violence subsided, the insurgency knowing the American people would never sustain such a presence after 2008.

Most of America felt betrayed that Obama did not immediately bring home all the troops.

You neo-cons are (1) not going to lie your way out of this, and (2) not get us involved in it again.

This is over.


----------



## Steinlight (Jun 13, 2014)

JakeStarkey said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> > Iran is a agent of stability in the region, the US, Saudi, and the Gulf States are agents of chaos(who have created Frankenstein monster in ISIS they lost control of). Who would have thought considering the mainstream media narrative about Iran.
> ...


Well if we are going to go into broad generalizations(sunnis are evil, shia are evil, americans are good), Shia are not as evil as a country that preemptively invades Iraq and kills hundreds of thousands, or backs terrorists in Syria. They may not be liberal democrats(not democrats in the party sense), but they have caused far less death and destruction in the Middle East then the so called western democratic powers.


----------



## JakeStarkey (Jun 13, 2014)

Steinlight said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > Steinlight said:
> ...



Yup, tell that to the devil ghosts of Saddam and Khomeini.

I do agree that the US has no dog in this hunt, led the bastards bleed each other out.  Neither side can defeat the other, only stalemate, which is very very good for the West.


----------



## Steinlight (Jun 13, 2014)

JakeStarkey said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> > JakeStarkey said:
> ...


Saddam wasn't a islamist, and suppressed islamists like ISIS during his reign, so bringing him up in context of this conversation is absurd. 

But sure, lets compare death tolls of Saddam vs the US invasion(do we count or not count deaths under Saddam when he was supported by Iraq). And lets do a death toll comparison between the US and Khomeni while were at it as well. Please.

Disagree, the best case is Maliki wins sooner rather than later, pushes back the rebels, all before oil prices rise significantly. The second best case would be they are absorbed by Iran(very unlikely though), and oil prices stabilize. A third and more likely scenario than the second  is a stalemate like in Syria, but with higher oil prices globally because of instability, who knows the effects this could have on the global economy. The fourth scenario, likely, and by far the worst, is radical islamists gaining control of Iraq and the second largest oil reserves in the middle east. Creating a base of operations for radical islamists globally and a financial base for operations through mass oil reserves. From there they could go back and capture Syria as was there original objective. 

No, no sane person could spin this as a very very good situation at all. Which makes me question your sanity.


----------



## TooTall (Jun 13, 2014)

Grampa Murked U said:


> The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
> Seems strange to me that we would spend all the money & lives just to let it fall in a matter of weeks/months.



I think we should send the President to California for a fund raiser and a weekend of golf at Palm Springs.  Not to worry about the small problems.


----------



## paulitician (Jun 13, 2014)

Iran does seem to be seizing this opportunity. They're taking the lead role over there. And that's not good for our Nation. Unfortunately, Iraq has become a sad Catch 22 for us. Who do you back in this mess?...Iran and the Iranian-backed Iraqi Government, or the Sunni Al Qaeda-led Rebels? Not much of a choice. A real No-Win scenario for Americans. So it's time to cut our losses. Let's not intervene. We've spent enough American blood & treasure over there. Time to move on.


----------



## I.P.Freely (Jun 14, 2014)

deltex1 said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...


Idiots like you never learn.


----------



## U2Edge (Jun 14, 2014)

JakeStarkey said:


> "The United States brought the killings and instability in Iraq down and got it under control. Then Obama failed to follow through and withdrew troops prematurely."
> 
> Lying narrative^.  We lost any chance of stabilizing Iraq as our long time enemy when the administration invaded with the less than 200,000 troops, 1/2 of what Shenseki would be required to permanently stabilize the country and win the peace.
> 
> ...



Its never over when US national security and global security is involved. There issues of global terrorism and oil potentially involved in the latest incident. Unless you live like the Amish in Pennsylvania, events in Iraq and the rest of the region will continue to impact your life and the lives of everyone living in an industrialized society dependent on natural resources for energy.  The Surge succeeded with a max troop level of 180,000 for the United States in Iraq. Its not necessarily the numbers of troops but how they are deployed and used which makes the most difference when it comes to stability and security. 

         But again in this instance, much stability can be restored, and hundreds of thousands of people will be able to return to their homes provided the President takes decisive action soon.


----------



## U2Edge (Jun 14, 2014)

paulitician said:


> Iran does seem to be seizing this opportunity. They're taking the lead role over there. And that's not good for our Nation. Unfortunately, Iraq has become a sad Catch 22 for us. Who do you back in this mess?...Iran and the Iranian-backed Iraqi Government, or the Sunni Al Qaeda-led Rebels? Not much of a choice. A real No-Win scenario for Americans. So it's time to cut our losses. Let's not intervene. We've spent enough American blood & treasure over there. Time to move on.



If it was a matter of charity or being humanitarian and helping people, then there would be a choice about whether to help or not. But when it involves global security from global terrorism and natural resources vital to the global economy, you are already involved period!


----------



## TemplarKormac (Jun 14, 2014)

I.P.Freely said:


> deltex1 said:
> 
> 
> > tinydancer said:
> ...



No, idiots trade five dangerous mass murderers for one common deserter. Idiots endanger the lives of every American in the Middle East/Northern Africa by doing so. Apparently, it is _they_ who never learn. The Administration overpaid in blood. It would have been better to give them money than to let these men go. Though, it is unlikely Obama will be able to disseminate Political gain from real life consequences. 

And now, we let one of the key players in the 9/11 attack go free. Never to see justice for his crime every again. The men and women who died at his hands should be spinning in their graves.


----------



## Steinlight (Jun 14, 2014)




----------



## ScienceRocks (Jun 14, 2014)

The problem with Iraq is between shit and sunny. They hate each other.


----------



## edthecynic (Jun 14, 2014)

TemplarKormac said:


> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> > deltex1 said:
> ...


Liar!


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## jillian (Jun 14, 2014)

TemplarKormac said:


> I.P.Freely said:
> 
> 
> > deltex1 said:
> ...



there has never been a trial of either the people allegedly terrorists or the alleged deserter. you've been repeatedly corrected on this matter. you should stop making sweeping allegations that are unsubstantiated.

and if they were terrorists, they should have been charged and tried.

bergdahl will be tried on the issue of his conduct... but that has nothing to do with leaving him to the taliban.


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## Politico (Jun 14, 2014)

Matthew said:


> The problem with Iraq is between shit and sunny. They hate each other.



That is Shite and Sunni. And yes they hate each other and always will. That is why we should stay out of it.


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## Samson (Jun 14, 2014)

Grampa Murked U said:


> I have mixed feelings on this.
> 
> On one hand the middle east is a cesspool of savages and I just wish they would all kill each other off.
> 
> ...



Don't take a taxi


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## georgephillip (Jun 14, 2014)

U2Edge said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > U2Edge said:
> ...


*He's apparently willing to ally with Iran in order to stop ISIS:*

"The United States and Iran are moving rapidly to defend Iraq from rampaging Sunni Islamist insurgents, with Washington urgently considering air strikes on the jihadi militants and Tehran dispatching its foremost powerbroker to help arrange the defence of Baghdad."

*If Obama reintroduces US ground forces into Iraq, he will be impeached.

The world is slowly waking to the reality that much of the "creative destruction" in the Middle East results from the deliberate aggravation of pre-existing regional tensions by the US and Britain; divide and conquer is not a new geopolitical concept.

I hope you are not naive enough to believe the US government has the slightest interest in peace or stability anywhere in the world when there is so much money to be made from wars and debt.*

Iraq crisis: Iran and US join fight against Sunni jihadis of Isis | World news | The Guardian


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## zeke (Jun 14, 2014)

tinydancer said:


> oldunclemark said:
> 
> 
> > Ignore them....
> ...





Yep I bet you will (be relieved). I heard from reliable sources that the terrorist organization in Iraq has YOUR name on the top of their list of Americans they most want to kill.
True story.

So YOU had better get YOUR sorry ass to Iraq ASAP to STOP the spread of Muslim terrorism.

If you don't go (to Iraq) and fight for your life, you are a pussy. And all mouth and fingers. And you know it.


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## JoeB131 (Jun 14, 2014)

Grampa Murked U said:


> The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
> Seems strange to me that we would spend all the money & lives just to let it fall in a matter of weeks/months.



So you think we should throw good money after bad?  

It was a bad idea to topple Saddam to start with.  We shouldn't continue to  invest in a mistake because it was a mistake.


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## paulitician (Jun 14, 2014)

Iran to the rescue? Yikes! What a mess. Looks like we've handed Iraq over to Iran. All that blood & treasure spent. And for what? So Iran could take Iraq and gain even more oil riches? A horrifying blunder for sure. But let's not make it worse. Let's sit this one out.


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## kaz (Jun 14, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> kaz said:
> 
> 
> > Chris said:
> ...



You haven't looked at a map or how long they've been there


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## kaz (Jun 14, 2014)

georgephillip said:


> kaz said:
> 
> 
> > Chris said:
> ...



When I say try to draw that map, I obviously mean one that would hold up.  that map would have an immediate war with Turkey invading the Kurds and the Shiites attacking the Sunnis over all the Shiite areas it puts under Sunni control.  Draw a map that would hold up.


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## paulitician (Jun 14, 2014)

Could be one bright spot in this mess. Looks like the Kurds might finally get their own Homeland. The Kurds are a good trustworthy people. They've been a loyal friend. They seem somewhat sane in an insane part of the World. And they've been brutally oppressed by their neighbors on all sides. I have to root for em. I'd like to see them get their Homeland. God Bless em.


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## kaz (Jun 14, 2014)

Rotagilla said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > kaz said:
> ...



Yes, the Kurds got screwed in Paris and the Sunnis and Shiites were put there by the British over oil.  However, it can't just be undone like that now.

This is a big reason why the US shouldn't be there.   Let them all waste each other until they find lines themselves they can live with.


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## Katzndogz (Jun 14, 2014)

paulitician said:


> Could be one bright spot in this mess. Looks like the Kurds might finally get their own Homeland. The Kurds are a good trustworthy people. They've been a loyal friend. They seem somewhat sane in an insane part of the World. And they've been brutally oppressed by their neighbors on all sides. I have to root for em. I'd like to see them get their Homeland. God Bless em.



Turkey does not share your opinion.   Free Kurdistan would be at war with Turkey within hours of becoming an independent state.


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## paulitician (Jun 14, 2014)

kaz said:


> Rotagilla said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...



Yeah, the Kurds have been brutalized by their neighbors on all sides for centuries. It's time for them to have a Homeland. Probably the only positive to come out of the Iraq War. However, it won't come without a hefty cost. Turkey will likely invade if the Kurds declare Independence. So unfortunately, the Kurds have a ways to go. They'll likely suffer a bit more before gaining complete Independence. But i think it's gonna happen. It's time.


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## paulitician (Jun 14, 2014)

Katzndogz said:


> paulitician said:
> 
> 
> > Could be one bright spot in this mess. Looks like the Kurds might finally get their own Homeland. The Kurds are a good trustworthy people. They've been a loyal friend. They seem somewhat sane in an insane part of the World. And they've been brutally oppressed by their neighbors on all sides. I have to root for em. I'd like to see them get their Homeland. God Bless em.
> ...



That is true. Turkey would invade immediately. But i think it's time for the Kurds to have their Homeland. They've suffered enough. The Arabs, Turks, and Persians have tormented them for Centuries. I'd like to see em finally prosper.


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## Katzndogz (Jun 14, 2014)

paulitician said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> > paulitician said:
> ...



I have Turkish friends who would gleefully see every Kurd wiped out.  To them, the Kurds are just murderous thugs who kill women and children with as much joy as they kill male fighters.


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## Kondor3 (Jun 14, 2014)

paulitician said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> > paulitician said:
> ...


I agree with your perspective on the Kurds.

It's just that such nation-erecting commentary takes me by surprise, coming from a Paulite.

I've always operated under the (mistaken?) impression that ya'll are fairly insistent isolationist types, except on the highest macro level(s).

But, an independent Kurdish State may be an idea whose time has come.

It would mean some existing country(ies) or another (Turkey, mostly, I seem to recall) giving-up some land, and it would probably involve some population-transfers from and to various regions, and could probably only be done peaceably via the UN, but it would be an interesting exercise in political creativity.

But nations (Turkey, or anyone else) don't give-up large tracts of land without a whole lot of convincing, and getting them (and others?) to agree might prove... well, let's say... problematic.


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## Kondor3 (Jun 14, 2014)

Katzndogz said:


> paulitician said:
> 
> 
> > Katzndogz said:
> ...


I'm about as ignorant of the Turkish-Kurdish history and present situation as one can be without falling off the intellectual map.

I've always thought of the Kurds as another Turkey-Armenians kind of situation, wherein the Turks have been heavily (sometimes, violently) repressing the Kurds for generations, stretching back far into Ottoman times, with the Kurds having a sufficient binding identity and persistence to continue to remain a thorn in the Turkish side for a very long time.

Many Westerners sympathize with the Armenians while still thinking of the Turks as friends and allies.

It's my perception that many Westerners sympathize with the Kurds, too, while still thinking of the Turks as friends and allies.

Albeit with the caveat that the Kurds have taken to terror tactics as a component of their continuing struggle against the Turks, and that Westerners, as a rule, do not approve of terror tactics.

Did I get it right?


----------



## JakeStarkey (Jun 14, 2014)

Steinlight and others above blame Saddam, the Jews, Khomeini, Mickey Mouse, the American neo-cons, whomever, for the problems in the ME.

Does not matter.  Let the Islamic beast bleed itself.


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## JakeStarkey (Jun 14, 2014)

> No, idiots trade five dangerous mass murderers for one common deserter.



Stupid comment is out of context without comparing it to the 151 fighters released by Bush who went back to the battle.

Deserter?  Maybe.  And we can wait for the results of an Article 32 investigation for that.

Anyone who takes paralegal courses in legal briefing and shepardizing know not to cherry pick cases because the argument will be deflated.


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## kaz (Jun 14, 2014)

paulitician said:


> kaz said:
> 
> 
> > Rotagilla said:
> ...



I agree with you that the Kurds should have a homeland.  However, you're not suggesting it's the job of the United States to create it, are you?


----------



## kaz (Jun 14, 2014)

JakeStarkey said:


> > No, idiots trade five dangerous mass murderers for one common deserter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



W is not President anymore, Homey.  It's time for Democrats to stand up and take responsibility for your own actions and stop blaming everyone else.  Obama's been President 5 1/2 years now.  You wanted him, you got him, you own him and his actions now.


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## kaz (Jun 14, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> [I'm about as ignorant of the Turkish-Kurdish history and present situation as one can be without falling off the intellectual map.
> 
> I've always thought of the Kurds as another Turkey-Armenians kind of situation, wherein the Turks have been heavily (sometimes, violently) repressing the Kurds for generations, stretching back far into Ottoman times, with the Kurds having a sufficient binding identity and persistence to continue to remain a thorn in the Turkish side for a very long time.
> 
> ...



In Paris in 1919, the nations of the world got together and redrew the map of the world.  The middle east was basically split between the French and the English.  The English particularly wanted oil.  The lines made little sense in the Middle East.

The Kurds got split up into Turkey, Iraq, Syria and I believe a little piece in Iran.  On the other hand, the British took the oil areas and stuck them together under Iraq with no historical significance.

Over time, the French and British both withdrew and we replaced them everywhere, which is how we ended up owning the whole ball of shit.  We need to stop and get out.


----------



## Katzndogz (Jun 14, 2014)

JakeStarkey said:


> > No, idiots trade five dangerous mass murderers for one common deserter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Following your logic that Bush acted in error in releasing 151 fighters who went back to the battle does it make sense to release the top commanders so they can go back to the battle too?  Is Bush just an excuse to do something even worse.   So Bush released 151 men who would shoot at our military and get shot themselves.  obama released the man who is now head of ISIS.   Instead of running around with a rifle taking pot shots, this man is killing thousands.   To compound that, we just released five of the top commanders necessary to conduct even more terrorist actions.    The excuse is still Bush released 151 fighters.   Nope.  Not gonna buy it.


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## georgephillip (Jun 14, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> paulitician said:
> 
> 
> > Katzndogz said:
> ...


The incentives I've read about that are being offered to Turkey and Israel to provide cover for oil and gas pipelines originating in the Caspian basin include EU membership for the Turks and NATO for Israel. I'm guessing we won't have to wait too long to find out.


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## Remodeling Maidiac (Jun 14, 2014)

They aren't terrorists guys. The MANY headless bodies found along the path of ISIS is just a coincidence.


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## georgephillip (Jun 14, 2014)

kaz said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > kaz said:
> ...


*Iran will stabilize the Sunni/Shia killing, and oil will solve the Turkish feud with Kurdistan.

From 2013*

"(Reuters) - Rising oil trade between Iraqi Kurdistan and Turkey threatens to split Iraq in two, a senior Iraqi official said, as the autonomous region ignores Baghdad's threats of tough action against what it terms illegal exports.

"Oil lies at the heart of a long-running feud between the central government and the autonomous Kurdistan region. Baghdad says it alone has the authority to control exports and sign contracts, while the Kurds say their right to do so is enshrined in Iraq's federal constitution.

"If oil from Kurdistan goes through Turkey directly, that will be like dividing Iraq. This is our big concern," Iraq's Deputy National Security Adviser Safa al-Sheikh Hussein said on the sidelines of an Iraq conference."

Iraq official fears split as Kurdish-Turkey oil trade grows | Reuters


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## Katzndogz (Jun 14, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> > paulitician said:
> ...



Most Americans are so ignorant of Kurds that they thing Kurd is something that goes along with whey.  Maybe not even that much.   They don't care.  They (like you) have feelings and the feeling is that everyone could get along.   They can't.


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## Synthaholic (Jun 14, 2014)

Grampa Murked U said:


> I'm a bit confused.  It's being reported that 3 battalions from IRAN are going in to fight FOR the government of Iraq.



Why is that confusing, Lib Pwner?  Iran is Shiite, and the new Iraqi government that Bush installed is also Shiite, trying to run a country full of Sunnis.  Saddam was a Sunni, and every previous leader was a Sunni.

al Qaeda is also Sunni, but was not allied with Saddam, and wanted him dead because he wasn't a religious nut like them.  He ran a secular government, didn't require head covering for women, and allowed women to drive.  It was very Western under Saddam, other than the fact that he was a dictator.

So Iran is happy to send troops to support their Shiite brother, Maliki.


----------



## Synthaholic (Jun 14, 2014)

Chris said:


> Iraq needs to be broken up into separate countries, just like we did with Yugoslavia.
> 
> One for the Shia, one for the Sunni, and one for the Kurds.



Which was Vice President Joe Biden's advice 5 years ago.


----------



## Synthaholic (Jun 14, 2014)

kaz said:


> Chris said:
> 
> 
> > Iraq needs to be broken up into separate countries, just like we did with Yugoslavia.
> ...


When you do try to draw that map, the Sunnis get screwed.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 14, 2014)

Katzndogz said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Katzndogz said:
> ...


Just to be clear, my own soft-and-fuzzy understanding of the Kurds has routinely equated them with the Armenians, vis a vis their relations with the Turks, and I've always been of the opinion that the Turks and Armenians can never co-exist peacefully over the long-haul under the banner of a single nation. Just to be clear...


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## Synthaholic (Jun 14, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> kaz said:
> 
> 
> > Chris said:
> ...


The South has a ton of oil, a ton of sand, and basically no population (desert).


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## Kondor3 (Jun 14, 2014)

Synthaholic said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > kaz said:
> ...


If such a thing were attempted... a simple North, Middle and South division, I already know that the Kurds are in the North... are the Shiites in the Middle, with the Sunnis in the South... generally speaking, and allowing for some spillover?


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## Synthaholic (Jun 14, 2014)

georgephillip said:


> kaz said:
> 
> 
> > Chris said:
> ...




Ralph Peters is one of the biggest pieces of shit on TV.  I've rarely seen bigger assholes on my television.

And his map, like I said a few posts ago, would screw the Sunnis.  

It's a ridiculous map:  The Shiites get Iraq's massive southern oil fields while the Sunnis get no oil?  And he wants to split Baghdad down the middle?  Give me fucking break.  He's an idiot.


----------



## georgephillip (Jun 14, 2014)

Synthaholic said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > kaz said:
> ...


Since I don't have a TV, I haven't seen Colonel Ralph, but his Wiki makes him sound like a corporate tool, to me.

His map has been around for a few years now, and as I understand the situation, the "New Middle East" hit a detour in 2006 when the IDF couldn't take and hold Lebanon as far north as the Litani river. During the last eight years, Tunisia, Egypt, and Libya have experienced regime change, and, at the moment, it appears Syria and Iraq are dissolving pretty much the way Colonel Ralph predicted. The idea is to create an "arc of instability" stretching from the eastern Mediterranean to the Caspian basin with warring clans, tribes, and religions incapable of providing any unified resistance to western oil and gas corporations.

Blood Borders is how Colonel Ralph describes these new lines in the sand.


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## Synthaholic (Jun 14, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> paulitician said:
> 
> 
> > Katzndogz said:
> ...



No it would not.  There is no reason why Turkey should have to give up an inch of their territory.  There is enough of Northern Iraq to create a Kurdistan.

And my fervent hope is that they do so quickly.  With a stable, growing Kurdistan, Kurds will emigrate from Turkey's Southeastern towns like Diyarbakir, Van, etc. to their own country.  This will lessen tensions between Turks and Kurds.


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## Synthaholic (Jun 14, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> > paulitician said:
> ...



Pretty much.  The PKK terrorist organization has severely damaged Kurds in the eyes of the West.  They were particularly brutal in the 1990s, murdering Turkish families, and abandoning any sense of discretion between legitimate targets and civilians.  They have lost a lot of steam since the capture of their leader, Abdullah Öcalan.

I love the video of his capture, and him saying how much he loved Turkey.  

And that capture marked a turning point for the better in Greece-Turkey relations: it was the Greeks who tipped Turkey off where to find Öcalan, in Kenya (with purported help from the CIA and Mossad).

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gU3TOMoBmnw]Apo itinin yakalanisi (Orjinal Video) - YouTube[/ame]


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## Synthaholic (Jun 14, 2014)

kaz said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > > No, idiots trade five dangerous mass murderers for one common deserter.
> ...



That doesn't give you license to be hypocrites.


----------



## U2Edge (Jun 14, 2014)

JoeB131 said:


> Grampa Murked U said:
> 
> 
> > The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
> ...



You should always remove people who threaten global security. Saddam did by invading and annexing Kuwait. First time a leader of a country invaded and annexed another country since Adolf Hitler did it in the early 1940s. Saddam had to go for that and many other reasons.


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## kaz (Jun 14, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...



I would think the Shiites would be in the south and the Sunnis in the west.  The problem is the Baghdad region where it's an endless patchwork and neither side is going to agree to be in the other's country.


----------



## kaz (Jun 14, 2014)

Synthaholic said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > kaz said:
> ...



Yes, he is.  It would clearly trigger two wars between the Turks and the Kurds and the Sunnis and the Shiites in Iraq.

It's no small leap to see the Iranian Shiites jumping in to support the Iraqi Shiites.  Then what happens?  Most of the Muslim world is Sunni and they hate Shiites, there would be incredible pressure across the Middle East to help the Iraqi Sunnis.  That could lead to an all out Middle East war.  Then what happens with Israel?  What happens with Russia who are married to the Shiites?  At what point does it stop?

That map is the map of someone who has zero grasp of the middle east.


----------



## Synthaholic (Jun 14, 2014)

kaz said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...


Syria is Shiite - why not just give the Shiites the western part bordering Syria, which has no oil and where no one wants to live?


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## Synthaholic (Jun 14, 2014)

kaz said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...



What happens to the price of oil?

We should be racing toward renewable energy, because this ME shit is inevitable.


----------



## kaz (Jun 14, 2014)

Synthaholic said:


> kaz said:
> 
> 
> > JakeStarkey said:
> ...



Yes, moron, libertarians are Republicans.  Tell me again how you're the intelligent party, you're not black and white like Republicans and you respect diversity unlike the Republicans.

I was against Iraq under both W and Obama.  You're a blind supporter of the party that was for Iraq before you were against it.  The hypocrite is in your mirror.


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## Samson (Jun 14, 2014)

Synthaholic said:


> kaz said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...



Price of oil and gas under the USA rises.

Drill baby, drill....


----------



## kaz (Jun 14, 2014)

Synthaholic said:


> kaz said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...



Syria is majority Sunni.  The government is Shiite, but the majority of the people are not.


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## Care4all (Jun 14, 2014)

Samson said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > kaz said:
> ...


Samson, do we export Oil that came from the USA soil/oceans, or do we use it ALL here in the USA?  I've wondered?  I think it's time we use ALL of American oil in the USA, if we are not already.


----------



## kaz (Jun 14, 2014)

Synthaholic said:


> kaz said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...



Once again the left wants to cripple our economy with expensive, not ready for prime time solutions.

Fracking and lifting domestic exploration restrictions is our near term solution


----------



## kaz (Jun 14, 2014)

Care4all said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...



Oil is a commodity.  It makes no sense to ship oil further to use the specific oil we drilled here in the US.  We are increasing transportation costs.  Yet drilling is a perfect hedge because what we sell matches roughly the cost of what we buy.  So yes, drilling and exporting and importing makes perfect sense for our economy.


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## Synthaholic (Jun 14, 2014)

kaz said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > kaz said:
> ...




Oh, that's right: Libertarians are the Party of fact-free strawmen.


----------



## Contumacious (Jun 14, 2014)

Grampa Murked U said:


> Iraq is imploding. Should we lend air support or wash our hands?



Wash our hands.



> The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. s.



It is truly amazing.

AL Qaeda is the US'  friend in Syria and the administration militarily and financially  assists it because they are fighting to defeat Bashar al-Assad .

But once they cross the border into Iraq they become "terrorists".

You  don't know you ass frokm a hole in the ground.

.


----------



## longknife (Jun 14, 2014)

Keep the hell out!

Let them sort it out themselves. It's none of our business and there's nothing we can really do about it.

Maybe they'll kill enough of each other so they're no longer a serious threat to us.


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## kaz (Jun 14, 2014)

Synthaholic said:


> kaz said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...



From the guy who said this to someone who is against our involvement in the middle east and, unlike you, that position doesn't change based on which party is behind the steering wheel...


----------



## JakeStarkey (Jun 14, 2014)

kaz said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > kaz said:
> ...



It's you, in fact.  Bush gave BHO a losing hand, and the latter's mistake was trying to play it instead of folding and bringing the troops home.


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## PredFan (Jun 14, 2014)

We should parachute drop Obama, Biden, Pelosi, Ried, and Holder right down town. Let them sort it out.


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## Contumacious (Jun 14, 2014)

JakeStarkey said:


> kaz said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...



That is true ONLY if you believe that the Repugnants and Dumbocrats are different parties instead of  wholly owned subsidiaries of the War Party, aka, the Military Industrial Complex.

.


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## Pheonixops (Jun 14, 2014)

paulitician said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> > paulitician said:
> ...



I don't think that NATO would support such a move.


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## Remodeling Maidiac (Jun 14, 2014)

Contumacious said:


> Grampa Murked U said:
> 
> 
> > Iraq is imploding. Should we lend air support or wash our hands?
> ...



They've been terrorists all along. Obama's fucked up foreign policy doesn't change that.


----------



## kaz (Jun 14, 2014)

JakeStarkey said:


> kaz said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...



So my being against Iraq under W and under Obama makes me a hypocrite how exactly, little boy?


----------



## longknife (Jun 14, 2014)

Katzndogz said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Katzndogz said:
> ...



This is worth checking out Kurds - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## JakeStarkey (Jun 14, 2014)

kaz said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > kaz said:
> ...



Because I knew you are yelling at BHO politically far more than at Bush at the time.

Yup, you are what you call yourself.


----------



## JakeStarkey (Jun 14, 2014)

Amazing that the far right think they can say whatever they want, then whine when they get trumped.

Little buddies, expect to get worse than you can dish.


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## kaz (Jun 14, 2014)

JakeStarkey said:


> kaz said:
> 
> 
> > JakeStarkey said:
> ...



I see, you pulled it out of your ass, I just wanted to hear you admit that.  Thanks.


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## SmedlyButler (Jun 14, 2014)

Way back I used to post on a political discussion forum much like this one. In the run-up to the Iraq war and for a while after shock and awe. Cons, maybe even some of the same as here were singing a different song back then. It was all "endless war on terror", "make the world safe for democracy", "to the ends of the earth". We libs were cowards and anti-American for warning about kicking over the hornet's nest. So fuck you, you broke it you don't want to fix it, fine by me. I know America can't fix it, unlike you guys who thought America could fix the whole friggin' world back then. I know what you're going to say, "It's Obama's fault". No it isn't, *it's your fault* for swallowing the neocon kool-aid and beating the jingoistic jungle drums for them.  Haven't heard many cons apologize for passing around the poison and I don't expect you crazies to man up either. So keep singing your fucked up song, even though you've changed the words it's still the same looney tune.


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## georgephillip (Jun 14, 2014)

PredFan said:


> We should parachute drop Obama, Biden, Pelosi, Ried, and Holder right down town. Let them sort it out.


Along with Dick, Dubya, Condi, and a few Saudi royals.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 14, 2014)

SmedlyButler said:


> Way back I used to post on a political discussion forum much like this one. In the run-up to the Iraq war and for a while after shock and awe. Cons, maybe even some of the same as here were singing a different song back then. It was all "endless war on terror", "make the world safe for democracy", "to the ends of the earth". We libs were cowards and anti-American for warning about kicking over the hornet's nest. So fuck you, you broke it you don't want to fix it, fine by me. I know America can't fix it, unlike you guys who thought America could fix the whole friggin' world back then. I know what you're going to say, "It's Obama's fault". No it isn't, *it's your fault* for swallowing the neocon kool-aid and beating the jingoistic jungle drums for them.  Haven't heard many cons apologize for passing around the poison and I don't expect you crazies to man up either. So keep singing your fucked up song, even though you've changed the words it's still the same looney tune.


There is enough blame to go around on all sides, when you get right down to it.

Spanning more than a decade, with multiple missed opportunities to avert or shorten our involvement.

You are right to pitch the beginning of this as a trumped-up Neo-Con casus belli.

But you neglect Centrist and Liberal involvement and acquiescence as well.

We ALL had a hand in this shitty mess.

ALL of us.

The best you can do is say: 'People who were better informed about the history and behavior of the region tried to caution against this, and the rest of the country didn't listen" - but, in truth, those who knew better came from Left, Right and Center, not just the Liberal wing.

Realism about the history and prospects for nation-building in the region are not a uniquely Left-leaning attribute.

And, frankly, other than to throw back a brickbat, against those laying the blame at the doorstep of our Dear Leader and Failed Messiah...

Throwing rocks about old shit doesn't really get us anywhere, in the context of trying to figure-out what to do now.


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## georgephillip (Jun 14, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> SmedlyButler said:
> 
> 
> > Way back I used to post on a political discussion forum much like this one. In the run-up to the Iraq war and for a while after shock and awe. Cons, maybe even some of the same as here were singing a different song back then. It was all "endless war on terror", "make the world safe for democracy", "to the ends of the earth". We libs were cowards and anti-American for warning about kicking over the hornet's nest. So fuck you, you broke it you don't want to fix it, fine by me. I know America can't fix it, unlike you guys who thought America could fix the whole friggin' world back then. I know what you're going to say, "It's Obama's fault". No it isn't, *it's your fault* for swallowing the neocon kool-aid and beating the jingoistic jungle drums for them.  Haven't heard many cons apologize for passing around the poison and I don't expect you crazies to man up either. So keep singing your fucked up song, even though you've changed the words it's still the same looney tune.
> ...


We might start by noting the violence in Syria, Iraq and Ukraine are not unrelated.
Russia has untapped resources the west has been targeting since Lenin came to power.
Stopping the killing in the Middle East and Central Asia will be difficult if not impossible as long as arms sales and oil sales are the leading money makers in the world.
Can war be taxed into extinction?
Will the race survive if it isn't?


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## Samson (Jun 14, 2014)

georgephillip said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > SmedlyButler said:
> ...



Good thing we have the UN to resolve these situations.


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## whitehall (Jun 14, 2014)

We could mop up those jihad A-holes in a day or two but the US has lost it's way under the "leadership" of a community activist. The strategy has always been to rely on the propaganda arm of the mainstream media to  camouflage and divert attention from crisis and scandal after scandal until it seems as if it all blew over.


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## Siete (Jun 14, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> SmedlyButler said:
> 
> 
> > Way back I used to post on a political discussion forum much like this one. In the run-up to the Iraq war and for a while after shock and awe. Cons, maybe even some of the same as here were singing a different song back then. It was all "endless war on terror", "make the world safe for democracy", "to the ends of the earth". We libs were cowards and anti-American for warning about kicking over the hornet's nest. So fuck you, you broke it you don't want to fix it, fine by me. I know America can't fix it, unlike you guys who thought America could fix the whole friggin' world back then. I know what you're going to say, "It's Obama's fault". No it isn't, *it's your fault* for swallowing the neocon kool-aid and beating the jingoistic jungle drums for them.  Haven't heard many cons apologize for passing around the poison and I don't expect you crazies to man up either. So keep singing your fucked up song, even though you've changed the words it's still the same looney tune.
> ...





agreeing with smedley and Kondor ... +1


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## edthecynic (Jun 14, 2014)

Care4all said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...


Gas products are our number one export.


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## georgephillip (Jun 14, 2014)

Samson said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...


*Especially the five permanent members of the UNSC who are doing so much to slow global arms sales.

In January of 2013 the world spent about $1 trillion on arms sales, and I don't think it has decreased any since then.*

The Arms Trade is Big Business ? Global Issues


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## Samson (Jun 14, 2014)

Care4all said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...



Like any commodity, it doesn't matter where oil comes from: It is sold to the highest bidder.

For example: A barrel of oil in the USA is for sale. If you are in Australia, you could buy it, but then you'd have to pay the high freight cost to ship it; Thus, Aussies do not buy much oil from the USA. Instead, they buy it from Indonesia. But the price for the barrel in Indonesia in set by WORLD-WIDE DEMAND. The barrel in Indonesia costs about the same as the barrel in the USA.

Since we already have oil in the USA, transportation cost is minimized, and the USA has used almost all it produces. Recently, the USA was able to begin exporting small volumes of excess oil, but proportionally this is almost nothing. Much of this export goes to Europe, where they have no domestic resource, and must pay the transportation costs.


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## Samson (Jun 14, 2014)

georgephillip said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...



If only there were some leader committed to hope and change.....


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## Care4all (Jun 14, 2014)

georgephillip said:


> PredFan said:
> 
> 
> > We should parachute drop Obama, Biden, Pelosi, Ried, and Holder right down town. Let them sort it out.
> ...


you forgot Rumsfeld!


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## georgephillip (Jun 14, 2014)

Samson said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...


Bernie Sanders for president? It?s the longest of long shots, but that doesn?t mean he won?t do it. - The Washington Post


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## Peach (Jun 14, 2014)

georgephillip said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...



Don't know; Wellstone is gone, where are the true statesmen?


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## Samson (Jun 14, 2014)

georgephillip said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...



Obama still has 3 years....


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## Synthaholic (Jun 14, 2014)

kaz said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > kaz said:
> ...


You talk like an extreme Rightwinger, then when called on it claim you are a libertarian, which is the same thing.

You may have been against the Iraq War but you are right with the wingnuts on just about everything else.

More evidence that Libertarians are just embarrassed Republicans.


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## Synthaholic (Jun 14, 2014)

PredFan said:


> We should parachute drop Obama, Biden, Pelosi, Ried, and Holder right down town. Let them sort it out.


Blaming Iraq on Obama is like blaming your hangover on the person making you breakfast.


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## SmedlyButler (Jun 14, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> SmedlyButler said:
> 
> 
> > Way back I used to post on a political discussion forum much like this one. In the run-up to the Iraq war and for a while after shock and awe. Cons, maybe even some of the same as here were singing a different song back then. It was all "endless war on terror", "make the world safe for democracy", "to the ends of the earth". We libs were cowards and anti-American for warning about kicking over the hornet's nest. So fuck you, you broke it you don't want to fix it, fine by me. I know America can't fix it, unlike you guys who thought America could fix the whole friggin' world back then. I know what you're going to say, "It's Obama's fault". No it isn't, *it's your fault* for swallowing the neocon kool-aid and beating the jingoistic jungle drums for them.  Haven't heard many cons apologize for passing around the poison and I don't expect you crazies to man up either. So keep singing your fucked up song, even though you've changed the words it's still the same looney tune.
> ...



You're about half right. I was speaking in the context of these online discussion forums then and now. I don't remember one con voicing caution back then and now everything's Obama's fault. I have my problems with Obama but at least he hasn't started a war, as in Iraq that I'm not going to list the costs of. You know the toll. And "we all had a hand in this shitty mess" strikes a nice bi-partisan tone. That's nice political correctness today. Back then in the real world it was overwhelmingly lefties like Dennis Kucinich who, to howls of derision, spoke out passionately for the truth. And I parse out their share of the blame to the weak kneed liberals and centrists who went along with the neocons for fear of being smeared with the "un-patriotic" label. Self-preservation at the expense of the country.

And;


> *
> Throwing rocks about old shit doesn't really get us anywhere, in the context of trying to figure-out what to do now*



I'm afraid there is no figuring out what to do now until and unless we're honest about how we got here. You know what they say about forgetting history.


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## Synthaholic (Jun 14, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> SmedlyButler said:
> 
> 
> > Way back I used to post on a political discussion forum much like this one. In the run-up to the Iraq war and for a while after shock and awe. Cons, maybe even some of the same as here were singing a different song back then. It was all "endless war on terror", "make the world safe for democracy", "to the ends of the earth". We libs were cowards and anti-American for warning about kicking over the hornet's nest. So fuck you, you broke it you don't want to fix it, fine by me. I know America can't fix it, unlike you guys who thought America could fix the whole friggin' world back then. I know what you're going to say, "It's Obama's fault". No it isn't, *it's your fault* for swallowing the neocon kool-aid and beating the jingoistic jungle drums for them.  Haven't heard many cons apologize for passing around the poison and I don't expect you crazies to man up either. So keep singing your fucked up song, even though you've changed the words it's still the same looney tune.
> ...



But that doesn't mean the blame is evenly distributed.

There is no equivalency between the Bushies/NeoCons who pushed for and prosecuted the war with Democrats who voted to give the Commander In Chief the authority to invade as a last resort.

None.


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## Peach (Jun 14, 2014)

Synthaholic said:


> PredFan said:
> 
> 
> > We should parachute drop Obama, Biden, Pelosi, Ried, and Holder right down town. Let them sort it out.
> ...



Send Rumsfeld, he can yell at ISIS; Bush II would wet his pants at the sound of gunfire, a shoe scared him. Boehner won't put down the bottle long enough to go, McConnell is in hiding.


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## SmedlyButler (Jun 14, 2014)

P.S. Last I heard there were about 17,000 people in the Green Zone. I hope you've all included that number in your calculus of consequences.


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## Synthaholic (Jun 14, 2014)

Samson said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...



Oil exports aren't the issue.  We are exporting huge amounts of refined gasoline.  Because everyone wants gasoline from the USA because we have an EPA which set the highest standards in the world.

Because of our record exports of gasoline, our price at the pump will not go down, and is only going to continue to rise.


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## Synthaholic (Jun 14, 2014)

georgephillip said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...


If you don't vote for Bernie Sanders you must be an anti-semite.


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## Synthaholic (Jun 14, 2014)

Peach said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > PredFan said:
> ...



...in his shell.


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## SmedlyButler (Jun 14, 2014)

Synthaholic said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > SmedlyButler said:
> ...



In my post 2 min. ago but was afraid I was getting too long winded. You're right on the money.


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## SmedlyButler (Jun 14, 2014)

whitehall said:


> We could mop up those jihad A-holes in a day or two but the US has lost it's way under the "leadership" of a community activist. The strategy has always been to rely on the propaganda arm of the mainstream media to  camouflage and divert attention from crisis and scandal after scandal until it seems as if it all blew over.



It'd be a "cakewalk."


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## Peach (Jun 14, 2014)

SmedlyButler said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> > We could mop up those jihad A-holes in a day or two but the US has lost it's way under the "leadership" of a community activist. The strategy has always been to rely on the propaganda arm of the mainstream media to  camouflage and divert attention from crisis and scandal after scandal until it seems as if it all blew over.
> ...



Yes, and there won't be any casualties, it'll be "worth it".


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## Kosh (Jun 14, 2014)

The far left would much rather see the world burn than admit they are wrong.


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## Peach (Jun 14, 2014)

Kosh said:


> The far left would much rather see the world burn than admit they are wrong.



Bush was far left, since when?


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## SmedlyButler (Jun 14, 2014)

Peach said:


> SmedlyButler said:
> 
> 
> > whitehall said:
> ...



He's the dumbest...but I know he isn't quite considering guys like tank and nouveaustephanne.

I was just looking at your sig-lines. Funny I was just a couple hours ago reading a bit about Douglas's involvement with the women's suffrage movement. I wasn't aware of the actual depth of that involvement. Not to be a downer but just to recognize the times as they were I found it a little funny that some women thought they should get the vote first and Douglas thought Black men should get there first. I haven't gotten far enough to find out if he had no hope for black women getting the vote.


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## Peach (Jun 14, 2014)

SmedlyButler said:


> Peach said:
> 
> 
> > SmedlyButler said:
> ...



He remained active in the women's rights movement tough; humans may differ in priorities, but remain committed to liberties. Frederick Douglass was a remarkable man.


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## paulitician (Jun 14, 2014)

Katzndogz said:


> paulitician said:
> 
> 
> > Katzndogz said:
> ...



They should make peace and allow the Kurds a Homeland. The Kurds have suffered enough. The World has forsaken them. They've been butchered by the Arabs, Persians, and Turks for Centuries. If any good can come from the Iraq War, it would be the Kurds finally getting a Homeland. They're a good honorable people. And they've been good trustworthy friends to us. I really am rooting for em.


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## Kosh (Jun 14, 2014)

Wow this thread changed quickly to "Women's Rights" which the far left is against.

The far left hates women.


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## paulitician (Jun 14, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> paulitician said:
> 
> 
> > Katzndogz said:
> ...



The Kurds have proven to be brave honorable allies. And they've endured Centuries of abuse. I guess i have a soft spot for em. It is time for them to finally prosper. It really would be the only positive to come from the Iraq War. Just my opinion anyway.


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## Synthaholic (Jun 14, 2014)

Peach said:


> SmedlyButler said:
> 
> 
> > whitehall said:
> ...


Oil revenue will pay for it!


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## Peach (Jun 14, 2014)

paulitician said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> > paulitician said:
> ...



The only friend the US has in the contrived nation, yes. And the only group in the nation  that can accept those of differing faiths.


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## paulitician (Jun 14, 2014)

kaz said:


> paulitician said:
> 
> 
> > kaz said:
> ...



No, the Kurds are capable of handling their own business. They've just seized the oil-rich city of Kirkuk. They're a very formidable fighting force.


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## Kondor3 (Jun 14, 2014)

paulitician said:


> kaz said:
> 
> 
> > paulitician said:
> ...


Against the Iraqis or ISIS, you're probably right.

Against the Iranians, or, more likely, the Turks, not so much.


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## paulitician (Jun 14, 2014)

Contumacious said:


> Grampa Murked U said:
> 
> 
> > Iraq is imploding. Should we lend air support or wash our hands?
> ...



Yes, a huge blunder committed by Obama. He shouldn't have funded & armed the Al Qaeda-linked Rebels in Syria. These groups are now wreaking havoc in both countries. He was so ill-advised on that. Putin warned him. Assad was the safer play. These groups are led by brutal Terrorist animals. Hey, it's a real mess. Nothing more can be said.


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## georgephillip (Jun 14, 2014)

Samson said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...


Unless he's impeached


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## Kondor3 (Jun 14, 2014)

SmedlyButler said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > SmedlyButler said:
> ...


We're going to have to agree to disagree about the apportioning of blame, and the motives (patriotism and concern for the country, vis a vis cowardly sheep-like compliance); I'm sure there was some considerable percentage of each, that went into that particular stew in 2003-2004.

As to 'remembering' the past, yes, I use that line from Santayana often enough myself, but, I suppose, my point is, that we already KNOW how we got here, and we already KNOW how Left, Right and Center have contributed to where we are now, so, rather than burning-up time and energy in pissing matches about the past, we (as a country) would be better off focusing our attention on where we go from here. It's no more complicated than that.

We been hashing and re-hashing this Blame Game shit over Iraq for 10-11 years already, and we haven't got a damned thing to show for it.

Just sayin'.


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## Peach (Jun 14, 2014)

SmedlyButler said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > SmedlyButler said:
> ...



Yes, we do so at our peril, we are reliving it now.


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## paulitician (Jun 14, 2014)

Peach said:


> paulitician said:
> 
> 
> > Katzndogz said:
> ...



Yes, they've been a good stable ally over there. Through it all, they were there helping us. They've been kicked around for ages. It really would be nice seeing them finally have a Homeland. Like i said, i guess i have a soft spot for em.


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## Luddly Neddite (Jun 14, 2014)




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## Peach (Jun 14, 2014)

paulitician said:


> Peach said:
> 
> 
> > paulitician said:
> ...



As do I.


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## Contumacious (Jun 14, 2014)

paulitician said:


> Contumacious said:
> 
> 
> > Grampa Murked U said:
> ...



Its called blowback. You would thing that some assshole in the Pentagon specializes in preventing them since they have happened so many times.


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## SmedlyButler (Jun 14, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> SmedlyButler said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...



Without prejudice.


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## bripat9643 (Jun 14, 2014)

Luddly Neddite said:


>



You know you're only proving that you're a king sized bigot, don't you?


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## SmedlyButler (Jun 14, 2014)

bripat9643 said:


> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> >
> ...



Political Correctness. Especially if it's actually funny. And that is.
What? All of a sudden you're the PC police? I've seen a few of your posts, you usually don't have that high of regard for it.


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## AntiParty (Jun 14, 2014)

Grampa Murked U said:


> I have mixed feelings on this.
> 
> On one hand the middle east is a cesspool of savages and I just wish they would all kill each other off.
> 
> ...



That religion based cesspool of savages is not unlike a large sum of people we have in America.........


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## EriktheRed (Jun 15, 2014)

Kosh said:


> Wow this thread changed quickly to "Women's Rights" which the far left is against.
> 
> The far left hates women.



You really think that works?


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## kaz (Jun 15, 2014)

Synthaholic said:


> kaz said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...



There's an old joke.  I speak every language except one, Greek.  Go ahead and name any other one.  Um..Latin?  That's Greek to me!

Liberals are such simpletons you can only memorize one set of talking points and you're not bright enough to adapt them.  So any politics that is not liberal is Republican to you!

So I'll bite, moron.  Give me an issue I'm not libertarian on.  I'm slapping you across the face with my glove and calling you a dickless little shemale.  So back up your idiotic claim.


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## dannyboys (Jun 15, 2014)

Grampa Murked U said:


> The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
> Seems strange to me that we would spend all the money & lives just to let it fall in a matter of weeks/months.


Iraq's corrupt leaders told the US to fuck off out of their country last year.
Advice BOBO should have quickly taken.
Let AQ behead Iraq'a leaders on live TV.
The west no longer needs Iraq's oil.
Next time an Iraq leader calls BOBO the response should be 'CLICK'.


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## NoNukes (Jun 15, 2014)

The Iranians are now in Iraq helping them. Should we join forces with them?


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## Mac1958 (Jun 15, 2014)

This may be a dumb question, but I'm trying to find a silver lining in this whole horrific mess.

This is about a lot more than just Iraq.  Much of the Middle East is in play and we could literally be seeing the beginning of a re-drawing of the map over there.  So:

Let's say this ISIS army (and that's pretty much what it is) succeeds in capturing some territory, be it Iraq or part of Syria or the Kurdish territory or some combination therein, whatever.  

I can't imagine such a territory wouldn't attract more Jihadists from the region. Wouldn't that finally give us a key advantage that we've been lacking, an identifiable geographic location of much of the enemy?

.


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## Peach (Jun 15, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> SmedlyButler said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...




I agree. ISIS/ASI/ISIL must be countered, the question is, how?


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## Kondor3 (Jun 15, 2014)

Peach said:


> ...I agree. ISIS/ASI/ISIL must be countered, the question is, how?


Our choices seem clear:

1. let the Muslims fight it out amongst themselves

2. intervene

At present, I'm leaning heavily towards (1).


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## Kondor3 (Jun 15, 2014)

Mac1958 said:


> This may be a dumb question, but I'm trying to find a silver lining in this whole horrific mess.
> 
> This is about a lot more than just Iraq.  Much of the Middle East is in play and we could literally be seeing the beginning of a re-drawing of the map over there.  So:
> 
> ...


That is a bit of a stretch, methinks, in justifying a hands-off policy for the present, and I'm going to have to give that one a 'hard think' before I buy into it, but, at first glance, it strikes me as a contender, to be included in the arsenal of talking-points in favor of leaving them to slug it out, without us intervening during the early going.


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## Katzndogz (Jun 15, 2014)

We lack a leader.   We have no one to direct any intervention.   There is no choice but to let them fight it out unless someone else, some other country, steps up.


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## Mac1958 (Jun 15, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> Mac1958 said:
> 
> 
> > This may be a dumb question, but I'm trying to find a silver lining in this whole horrific mess.
> ...




Yeah, no doubt it's a stretch.

The problem (well, ONE of them) is that there are so few if any bankable players over there.  Who in the fuck are we supposed to "help"?  We support one guy on one day, then before long we're fitting him for a noose.  

It ain't our sand, let 'em do what they're gonna do.

.


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## Samson (Jun 15, 2014)

Katzndogz said:


> We lack a leader.   We have no one to direct any intervention.   There is no choice but to let them fight it out unless someone else, some other country, steps up.



Indeed;

The fact that the Obama administration has allowed the situation to deteriorate to the point it is at now is indictment enough: Obama is in fact an empty suit, with no leadership qualifications and elected with no more credentials than his race and media presence.


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## JakeStarkey (Jun 15, 2014)

kaz said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > kaz said:
> ...



It's the truth.  You criticize BHO far more than Bush on this issue.  The truth is difficult for you to live with, but as long as the good guys are here, you will.


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## kaz (Jun 15, 2014)

JakeStarkey said:


> kaz said:
> 
> 
> > JakeStarkey said:
> ...



Um...Jakey, who is President?  W has not been President for 5 1/2 years now.  That you are still as obsessed with criticizing him as the guy who is currently President and has been for quite some time demonstrates there's something with you, not me.


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## tinydancer (Jun 15, 2014)

Ok to the "let the muslims fight it out crew". This isn't two warring religious factions.

This is a situation whereby normal every day Joe and Jill Mohammed six packs are under attack by a psycho crazy homicidal terrorist army.

These poor Iraqis don't stand a chance against ISIS. Geeze louise guys get a grip.

Only one choice. Intervene now and keep ISIS from plundering Baghadad/Iraq and grabbing not only
her wealth and her oil fields but all the weapons we've given them.

If we allow ISIS and Levant to march forward we will doom ourselves people.


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## The T (Jun 15, 2014)

tinydancer said:


> Ok to the "let the muslims fight it out crew". This isn't two warring religious factions.
> 
> This is a situation whereby normal every day Joe and Jill Mohammed six packs are under attack by a psycho crazy homicidal terrorist army.
> 
> ...


And give them a huge base of operations to go after ISRAEL...and don't think for one minute that it isn't in their plans...and WE are in their crosshairs as well.


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## tinydancer (Jun 15, 2014)

JakeStarkey said:


> kaz said:
> 
> 
> > JakeStarkey said:
> ...



Jake your man in the White House let Baghdadi go in 2009 and have not made a move on his army that now numbers more than 12,000.

The whole AQ is dead, decimated and on the run is a huge freaking lie from the WH aka Home of the Whopper.

Obama owns this current mess in Iraq. 

Oh and if you libs can't get your head  out of your ass and just keep continually blaming Bush for all the problems on the planet let me tell you about the asshole liberal organization who brought us the problem called Iraq to begin with.

The League of Nations. Shut up about Bush. Go dig those old bastards up and smack them around.


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## edthecynic (Jun 15, 2014)

tinydancer said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > kaz said:
> ...



Now that IS a whopper. 

Bush claimed he killed Baghdadi in 2005. Was that a whopper?

Bush will always own Iraq!


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## Synthaholic (Jun 15, 2014)

kaz said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > kaz said:
> ...



Why? So you can disagree with me, then try to send me on a wild goose chase looking through your old posts?

You're asking the wrong question.  Ask how you are any different from the extreme Right Republicans.  The Iraq War.  That's one, if you were being honest.  What else?


----------



## BlackSand (Jun 15, 2014)

We promised the Iraqi government we would maintain and supply some air support after the troops left as part of our agreement in the exit strategy.
Iraq isn't asking for anything we didn't promise ... And if breaking our promise is the New Deal under the current administration ... Then they should bear the brunt of criticism.

.


----------



## paulitician (Jun 15, 2014)

Contumacious said:


> paulitician said:
> 
> 
> > Contumacious said:
> ...



You would think. But then again, maybe the Military Industrial Complex enjoys chaos. More War is good for their business, no?


----------



## The T (Jun 15, 2014)

BlackSand said:


> We promised the Iraqi government we would maintain and supply some air support after the troops left as part of our agreement in the exit strategy.
> Iraq isn't asking for anything we didn't promise ... And if breaking our promise is the New Deal under the current administration ... Then they should bear the brunt of criticism.
> 
> .


 
Very true. There was a 'Status Of Forces' agreement in place before Obama. Obama yanked it for political expediency. The price for it is now being paid in blood.


----------



## Synthaholic (Jun 15, 2014)

Mac1958 said:


> This may be a dumb question, but I'm trying to find a silver lining in this whole horrific mess.
> 
> This is about a lot more than just Iraq.  Much of the Middle East is in play and we could literally be seeing the beginning of a re-drawing of the map over there.  So:
> 
> ...



Perhaps Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordon, Kuwait, and Turkey could actually use some of the billions and billions in weapons and aircraft they have purchased from us over the past 30 years?

Why does it need to be us?  If the whole of the Middle East is teetering* isn't it even more imperative for these relatively stable countries to act in their own best interest?

The excuse that if those countries got involved it could inflame the entire ME is tired and lame.  It's like saying that if the entire USA tried to crack down on gun violence in Chicago, it would just result in gang violence breaking out across America.  Most ME citizens do not want conflict, and do not want religious extremism.  Especially in Turkey, Jordon, and Egypt.




* or whatever today's scare word is.


----------



## paulitician (Jun 15, 2014)

And Obama doesn't have clean hands on this either. He committed an awful blunder funding & arming known Al Qaeda-linked Rebel groups in Syria. These groups are now wreaking havoc in Syria and Iraq. He does deserve some blame for this chaos. He was warned by many not to arm these groups. This is the Blow Back on that. So yes Iraq is Bush's calamity, but Obama has played a role in this current chaos.


----------



## protectionist (Jun 15, 2014)

healthmyths said:


> Grampa Murked U said:
> 
> 
> > The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
> ...



The people who helped this situation are the people who didn't make foolish statements like you're making now.  The CURRENT SITUATION is one in which ISIS stands to acquire control over Iraq.  This would give them control over Iraq's oil (largest reserves in the world).  This would give them the wealth to quite quickly acquire nuclear weapons.

  There is nothing more dangerous to America than a nuclear arsenal in the hands of a lunatic, Muslim, jihadist group like ISIS.  That is what this is about, in a nutshell.  Talking about anything else is just a distraction.

To answer the question in the title of the OP, YES, OF COURSE we should lend air support, and that is why we have an aircraft carrier, a destroyer, and a cruiser, each armed with bombs, rockets, and/or missles on the way to the region.  Regretfully, the Obama administration has been dismally inept on this, with all their perspective focused on withdrawing from Iraq, when we badly needed to quickly re-enter Iraq (at least with airstrikes), and never should have removed the residual military force in the first place.


----------



## Synthaholic (Jun 15, 2014)

Samson said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> > We lack a leader.   We have no one to direct any intervention.   There is no choice but to let them fight it out unless someone else, some other country, steps up.
> ...


----------



## Synthaholic (Jun 15, 2014)

tinydancer said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > kaz said:
> ...



You keep repeating this bullshit even though edthecynic and others have debunked it.

You're stuck on your fake talking point.


----------



## Synthaholic (Jun 15, 2014)

BlackSand said:


> We promised the Iraqi government we would maintain and supply some air support after the troops left as part of our agreement in the exit strategy.
> Iraq isn't asking for anything we didn't promise ... And if breaking our promise is the New Deal under the current administration ... Then they should bear the brunt of criticism.
> 
> .



And what did the Iraqi government promise to us?


----------



## Synthaholic (Jun 15, 2014)

The T said:


> BlackSand said:
> 
> 
> > We promised the Iraqi government we would maintain and supply some air support after the troops left as part of our agreement in the exit strategy.
> ...



Bullshit.  You're a liar.


----------



## kaz (Jun 15, 2014)

Synthaholic said:


> kaz said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...



I've told you that at least 50 times, I can't help that you're a moron with no memory other than the ability to repeat liberal talking points.

OK, here we go again.  I'm pro-choice, anti-death penalty, I think all drugs should be legal as well as prostitution and gambling.  I believe there is nothing wrong with gays in any way.  I oppose the US military being in any country permanently overseas and I think it should be used only for the defense of the United States.  I'm also not a Republican because I'm a fiscal conservative.

I also argue with Republicans all the time.  You're just so flamingly butt stupid that if I disagree with you on one issue, your mind just repeats Republican, Republican, Republican.

Now, you name an issue that I'm not libertarian.


----------



## paulitician (Jun 15, 2014)

In fairness to Obama, this isn't his mess. However, his funding & arming extremist Terror-linked Rebels in Syria has led to this current mess. They're on a rampage in both Syria and Iraq. So that is his big blunder. He has contributed to making things worse over there. But it wouldn't be fair blaming the entire Iraq mess on him. He had nothing to do with the decision to invade.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 15, 2014)

paulitician said:


> In fairness to Obama, this isn't his mess. However, his funding & arming extremist Terror-linked Rebels in Syria has led to this current mess. They're on a rampage in both in Syria and Iraq. So that is his big blunder. He has contributed to making things worse over there. But it wouldn't be fair blaming the entire Iraq mess on him. He had nothing to do with the decision to invade.


Agreed.

Dems want to blame the whole damned thing on Pubs.

Pubs want to blame the whole damned thing on Dems.

As with so many things in life, the Truth lies somewhere in the middle.


----------



## paulitician (Jun 15, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> paulitician said:
> 
> 
> > In fairness to Obama, this isn't his mess. However, his funding & arming extremist Terror-linked Rebels in Syria has led to this current mess. They're on a rampage in both in Syria and Iraq. So that is his big blunder. He has contributed to making things worse over there. But it wouldn't be fair blaming the entire Iraq mess on him. He had nothing to do with the decision to invade.
> ...



Bingo!


----------



## kaz (Jun 15, 2014)

paulitician said:


> In fairness to Obama, this isn't his mess. However, his funding & arming extremist Terror-linked Rebels in Syria has led to this current mess. They're on a rampage in both in Syria and Iraq. So that is his big blunder. He has contributed to making things worse over there. But it wouldn't be fair blaming the entire Iraq mess on him. He had nothing to do with the decision to invade.



I agree, but I don't really see anyone saying Iraq is entirely his fault.  I see liberals saying it's entirely W's fault, which doesn't work after Obama was there for all those years.  And I see supporters of W blaming Obama for leaving, not for going in.  So I'm not sure who you're referring to who blames Obama for the whole thing.


----------



## georgephillip (Jun 15, 2014)

tinydancer said:


> Ok to the "let the muslims fight it out crew". This isn't two warring religious factions.
> 
> This is a situation whereby normal every day Joe and Jill Mohammed six packs are under attack by a psycho crazy homicidal terrorist army.
> 
> ...


*What's the ratio of Sunni to Shiite in Iraq?*

"Religions[edit]
Islam 99% (*Shi'a 60%-65%, Sunni 32%-37%*), Christianity 0.8%, Mandaeism and other less then 0.1%. [5]"

*Before you get too worked up for US airstrikes in Iraq, you might consider how those same strikes would target ISIS in Syria, as well.

There are enough Shi'a in Iran and around Baghdad to stop ISIL.

IMHO, what we've seen in Iraq over the past week fits perfectly with the plans for a New Middle East with Iraq and Syria fragmented into warring enclaves based on ethnicity or religion and with even less potential to obstruct western oil and gas corporations operating in Central Asia and the Middle East. *

Demographics of Iraq - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## The T (Jun 15, 2014)

Synthaholic said:


> The T said:
> 
> 
> > BlackSand said:
> ...


 
ONLY LIAR here is YOU shitstain...

U.S.?Iraq Status of Forces Agreement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## QuickHitCurepon (Jun 15, 2014)

We wrongly upset the delicate balance in Iraq, no matter how unpleasant it was. They have to solve their own problems now, and to return something to a delicate balance requires only patience and introspection, while any further interference is the fly in the ointment.


----------



## georgephillip (Jun 15, 2014)

The T said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> > Ok to the "let the muslims fight it out crew". This isn't two warring religious factions.
> ...


How many nuclear weapons does ISIS have?
How does that compare to Israel?
Do you believe half the shit you post


----------



## Contumacious (Jun 15, 2014)

BlackSand said:


> We promised the Iraqi government we would maintain and supply some air support after the troops left as part of our agreement in the exit strategy.
> Iraq isn't asking for anything we didn't promise ... And if breaking our promise is the New Deal under the current administration ... Then they should bear the brunt of criticism.
> 
> .



I believe that you are forgetting that Iraq is composed of Shiites, Sunnis and small ethnic group known as the Kurds.

The ethnic group in power is the Shiites , which were installed by war criminal Bush II.

So we promised the SHIITES military support. But that does not guarantee that the Sunnis are going to sit  idle by . Expecially when economic powerhouse Saudi Arabia, is controlled by Sunnis.

.


----------



## kaz (Jun 15, 2014)

QuickHitCurepon said:


> We wrongly upset the delicate balance in Iraq, no matter how unpleasant it was. They have to solve their own problems now, and to return something to a delicate balance requires only patience and introspection, while any further interference is the fly in the ointment.



Um...you see Saddam murdering a million Iraqis as a "delicate balance?"  I see it as brutal barbarianism.


----------



## Synthaholic (Jun 15, 2014)

kaz said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > kaz said:
> ...



With all those Liberal positions, I'm surprised you're not pos repped by Liberals, including me, all the time.  I don't see you arguing pro-Gay in the queer threads.  I don't see you argue anything except the points where you agree with conservatives.

Funny - I'm never confused about KevinWestern's Libertarianism...


----------



## Synthaholic (Jun 15, 2014)

paulitician said:


> In fairness to Obama, this isn't his mess. *However, his funding & arming extremist Terror-linked Rebels in Syria has led to this current mess.* They're on a rampage in both Syria and Iraq. So that is his big blunder. He has contributed to making things worse over there. But it wouldn't be fair blaming the entire Iraq mess on him. He had nothing to do with the decision to invade.



Isn't it the NeoCon Right who has pushed for funding the Syrian resistance?


----------



## Manonthestreet (Jun 15, 2014)

You do know we are supporting ISIS is Syria? Right now with this Admin I would prefer inaction.


----------



## tinydancer (Jun 15, 2014)

QuickHitCurepon said:


> We wrongly upset the delicate balance in Iraq, no matter how unpleasant it was. They have to solve their own problems now, and to return something to a delicate balance requires only patience and introspection, while any further interference is the fly in the ointment.



No and here is why I am breaking with Paulites on this. We are going to create a Godzilla of a Godzilla son of a bitch monster terror group if we do not go in and nuke these assholes.

Obama has allowed this mother trucker Baghdadi to amass an army of 12000 and growing terrorists.

This is not an insurgency. Please. I guess I have to hit all your websites tonight so you can get a grip on what is really going on.

If these whackos get their hands on the money, on the weapons we have given Iraq, God help us.

You sure you want to sit this one out?


----------



## kaz (Jun 15, 2014)

Synthaholic said:


> kaz said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...



Kevin's an anarchist.  I believe in "limited" government.  Since you're a moron, that's too complicated for you.  You just hear "Republican."


----------



## tinydancer (Jun 15, 2014)

Manonthestreet said:


> You do know we are supporting ISIS is Syria? Right now with this Admin I would prefer inaction.



This is why Obama won't move. He loves Baghdadi I think. He's obviously pro Sunni.


----------



## The T (Jun 15, 2014)

tinydancer said:


> QuickHitCurepon said:
> 
> 
> > We wrongly upset the delicate balance in Iraq, no matter how unpleasant it was. They have to solve their own problems now, and to return something to a delicate balance requires only patience and introspection, while any further interference is the fly in the ointment.
> ...


 The whole region needs to be turned into a fucking parking lot. (Apologies to the innocents that BEGGED us not to leave)...they were the sensible ones.


----------



## Manonthestreet (Jun 15, 2014)

tinydancer said:


> Manonthestreet said:
> 
> 
> > You do know we are supporting ISIS is Syria? Right now with this Admin I would prefer inaction.
> ...



I dont know...we just seem to be flying by seat of our pants with no thought or firm policy goals other than make Obama look good.


----------



## Synthaholic (Jun 15, 2014)

The T said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > The T said:
> ...


You only post the original, and not the updated from 2010:


The Agreement was necessary as the legal authority for the presence of the United States' troops - the United Nations Security Council Resolution 1790 - expired on 31 December 2008.
 Under the agreement, the United States' Army must withdraw from all  cities by mid-2009 and from Iraq altogether by the end of 2011.*[4]  Iraqi courts will be able to try crimes committed by off-duty soldiers  outside their bases. The United States would not be allowed to use Iraq  as a base to attack any other state - a response to a recent bombing of  Syria [5] - and the Iraqi Army would have control over the operations and movements of the United States' army.[6]*


Would you agree to that if you were Obama?


----------



## Synthaholic (Jun 15, 2014)

kaz said:


> QuickHitCurepon said:
> 
> 
> > We wrongly upset the delicate balance in Iraq, no matter how unpleasant it was. They have to solve their own problems now, and to return something to a delicate balance requires only patience and introspection, while any further interference is the fly in the ointment.
> ...



If you believe that propaganda.


----------



## 1776 (Jun 15, 2014)

Using airpower and select spec ops missions to kill ISIS terrorists and help the ISF repel them is a better option than letting ISIS take over Iraq or Iran to take over Iraq making a bigger Iran.

Of course I'm sure plenty of liberal and losertarian idiots in this thread spewed their ignorance on this matter based on no experience in the military and watching Hollywood movies as their education on foreign policy/national security matters. Samson afterall is a "5-star General" according to him.


----------



## kaz (Jun 15, 2014)

Synthaholic said:


> kaz said:
> 
> 
> > QuickHitCurepon said:
> ...



Propaganda?  He killed a half million Shiites after the end of the Kuwait war alone.  He's used WMDs on his own people numerous times.  They dug up mass graves.  No one disputes this.  You're a true sheep.


----------



## Synthaholic (Jun 15, 2014)

kaz said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > kaz said:
> ...



Link?  Who was doing the counting?

A million is a lot of people.


----------



## Contumacious (Jun 15, 2014)

1776 said:


> Using airpower and select spec ops missions to kill ISIS terrorists and help the ISF repel them is a better option than letting ISIS take over Iraq or Iran to take over Iraq making a bigger Iran.
> 
> Of course I'm sure plenty of liberal and losertarian idiots in this thread spewed their ignorance on this matter based on no experience in the military and watching Hollywood movies as their education on foreign policy/national security matters. Samson afterall is a "5-star General" according to him.



The fucktards never cease to amaze me.

The ISIS mujahideen go to Syria where  they are militarily strengthened by the Obama administration which provides them money and materiel in order to oppose Bashar al-Assad.

Then they travel to Iraq where they  use their newly found wealth to remove the shiites from power.  

US Foreign policy where the (a) left hand does not know what the right is doing and (b) is afflicted by frequent blowbacks.

.


----------



## georgephillip (Jun 15, 2014)

1776 said:


> Using airpower and select spec ops missions to kill ISIS terrorists and help the ISF repel them is a better option than letting ISIS take over Iraq or Iran to take over Iraq making a bigger Iran.
> 
> Of course I'm sure plenty of liberal and losertarian idiots in this thread spewed their ignorance on this matter based on no experience in the military and watching Hollywood movies as their education on foreign policy/national security matters. Samson afterall is a "5-star General" according to him.


Are you calling for US air power and hired killers on the ground in Iraq and Syria?


----------



## Mac1958 (Jun 15, 2014)

Synthaholic said:


> Mac1958 said:
> 
> 
> > This may be a dumb question, but I'm trying to find a silver lining in this whole horrific mess.
> ...




I think we've caused enough damage and yes, you'd think the folks in the Middle East could get their collective shit together at some point.  On the other hand, these are people who are essentially operating under a 17th century mindset, so we probably shouldn't hold our breath.

No, I agree with you that this is/should be their problem.  My only thought to the contrary is that if we're going to once again shove our military nose in the business of others, it would be more efficient if all these guys were in the same zip code.

.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 15, 2014)

1776 said:


> Using airpower and select spec ops missions to kill ISIS terrorists and help the ISF repel them is a better option than letting ISIS take over Iraq or Iran to take over Iraq making a bigger Iran.
> 
> Of course I'm sure plenty of liberal and losertarian idiots in this thread spewed their ignorance on this matter based on no experience in the military and watching Hollywood movies as their education on foreign policy/national security matters. Samson afterall is a "5-star General" according to him.


You *DO* understand that not *EVERYBODY* who is leaning towards 'hands-off' is either an Obumble supporter or a Libertarian, right?


----------



## The T (Jun 15, 2014)

kaz said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > kaz said:
> ...


 

Iraqi Sites Guide - The Mass Graves


----------



## Contumacious (Jun 15, 2014)

kaz said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > kaz said:
> ...


*
"Having looked at all of the evidence that was available to us, we find it impossible to confirm the State Department's claim that gas was used in this instance. To begin with there were never any victims produced. International relief organizations who examined the Kurds -- in Turkey where they had gone for asylum -- failed to discover any. Nor were there ever any found inside Iraq. The claim rests solely on testimony of the Kurds who had crossed the border into Turkey, where they were interviewed by staffers of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee."*


*STEPHEN C. PELLETIERE 
US Army War College*

.


----------



## EriktheRed (Jun 15, 2014)

> Elsewhere in Washington, the blame game has already begun. This is the education of Barack Obama, but its coming at a very high cost to the Syrian people to the Iraqi people, to the American national interest, Doug Feith, the Under-secretary of Defense for Policy from 2001 to 2005, told Politico. The President didnt take seriously the warnings of what would happen if we withdrew and he liked the political benefits of being able to say that were completely out. Senator John McCain, whom the President telephoned on Friday, has called on Obama to fire his entire national-security team, claiming, Could all of this have been avoided? The answer is absolutely yes.
> McCain is right; it could have been avoided. If, in the aftermath of 9/11, President George W. Bush had treated the arguments of Feith, McCain, and other advocates of the Iraq War with the disdain they deserved, we (and the Iraqis) wouldnt be where we are today.
> 
> If, in the immediate aftermath of the U.S. invasion, Paul Bremer, the American proconsul in Baghdad, and his boss, Donald Rumsfeld, had not decided to disband Saddams army, the one institution that somewhat unified the country, the Iraqi state would be stronger. If, in addition, Bremer and Rumsfeld had ordered enough U.S. troops onto the streets to preserve order, then Iraq might (and its only a might) have held together peacefully instead of degenerating into sectarianism, anarchy, and violence.
> ...



The Iraq Mess: Place Blame Where It Is Deserved


----------



## Politico (Jun 16, 2014)

Katzndogz said:


> paulitician said:
> 
> 
> > Could be one bright spot in this mess. Looks like the Kurds might finally get their own Homeland. The Kurds are a good trustworthy people. They've been a loyal friend. They seem somewhat sane in an insane part of the World. And they've been brutally oppressed by their neighbors on all sides. I have to root for em. I'd like to see them get their Homeland. God Bless em.
> ...



No to mention I am sure Pakistan would have no issues with half of their country taken away. That guy is fucking loon.


----------



## Synthaholic (Jun 16, 2014)

The T said:


> kaz said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...


So where are you getting a million people from?


----------



## Synthaholic (Jun 16, 2014)

Katzndogz said:


> paulitician said:
> 
> 
> > Could be one bright spot in this mess. Looks like the Kurds might finally get their own Homeland. The Kurds are a good trustworthy people. They've been a loyal friend. They seem somewhat sane in an insane part of the World. And they've been brutally oppressed by their neighbors on all sides. I have to root for em. I'd like to see them get their Homeland. God Bless em.
> ...



You're talking out of your ass, as usual.

The tensions between Turks and Kurds is because Kurds occupy Southeastern Turkey.  Leaving for their own country will lessen tensions.


----------



## tinydancer (Jun 16, 2014)

Geezs louize why are you letting this drive you.


----------



## Care4all (Jun 16, 2014)

kaz said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > kaz said:
> ...


50,000 UN estimate to as high as 172000 estimate from the Shiites, NOT the 500,000? and the Shiites rebelled against Saddam and the Sunni's and was killing them in their town in brutal manners....before Saddam sent his troops in....hw bush 1 admin encouraged the rebellion and the Shiites were supposedly told that we would come in and help them with their rebellion....instead we stood by the wayside and let them die....

is what I have read on it.

We truly need to get out of this warring crapola, we are not very good at it when it comes to the middle east imo....we are just clueless on what the right thing is, that we should do....because the place is so messed up with so many different evil factions at play.


----------



## Seawytch (Jun 16, 2014)

Why the fuck couldn't we have invaded Grenada instead?


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 16, 2014)

Seawytch said:


> Why the fuck couldn't we have invaded Grenada instead?


Nahhhhh... that's just a toothpick.


----------



## Wildman (Jun 16, 2014)

Grampa Murked U said:


> I have mixed feelings on this.
> 
> On one hand the middle east is a cesspool of savages and I just wish they would all kill each other off.
> 
> ...



NUKE the area till it takes 10,000 years for a lizard to even walk across the sand that was not turned to glass !        .....  ....


----------



## jon_berzerk (Jun 16, 2014)

BlindBoo said:


> If Congress wants the President to use military force again in Iraq let them vote on a resolution supporting President Obama and giving him the resources necessary.



why would he need congress 

he has not needed them so far


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 16, 2014)

What's the solution?

Short term? Walk away.

Long term? Learn from past mistakes. Act prudently and intelligently and effectively in future.

Although, quite frankly, I wonder if we're capable of that.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 16, 2014)

jon_berzerk said:


> BlindBoo said:
> 
> 
> > If Congress wants the President to use military force again in Iraq let them vote on a resolution supporting President Obama and giving him the resources necessary.
> ...


"Constitution?






We don't need no stinking Constitution!"


----------



## Care4all (Jun 16, 2014)

jon_berzerk said:


> BlindBoo said:
> 
> 
> > If Congress wants the President to use military force again in Iraq let them vote on a resolution supporting President Obama and giving him the resources necessary.
> ...



Because your side has thrown a big FIT about it?  If you want this, then support it with your vote, and stop your continual back stabbing with what ever decision the President of OUR NATION makes...

you want it, you back it....

(YOU, meaning conservatives, Republicans)


----------



## jon_berzerk (Jun 16, 2014)

Care4all said:


> jon_berzerk said:
> 
> 
> > BlindBoo said:
> ...



he has not even asked for it 

and he most likely will not


----------



## Pennywise (Jun 16, 2014)

Watch it fall apart under Obama and Kerry. We broke that country and we have no business leaving until we fix it, no matter how much that sucks.


----------



## Care4all (Jun 16, 2014)

Pennywise said:


> Watch it fall apart under Obama and Kerry. We broke that country and we have no business leaving until we fix it, no matter how much that sucks.




ONLY IF WE KNOW *HOW to FIX IT....

*otherwise we are wasting money and our soldiers lives...which must be considered....they are not just throw away pawns....

and 10 to 1, we have no idea how to fix anything in the middle east, nor does our country have the will to do it....without the assurance of making it BETTER.

I'm not against air support, but I am against more troops on the ground and another build up in Iraq.


----------



## Seawytch (Jun 16, 2014)

Care4all said:


> Pennywise said:
> 
> 
> > Watch it fall apart under Obama and Kerry. We broke that country and we have no business leaving until we fix it, no matter how much that sucks.
> ...



For how many centuries have other countries been trying to "fix" the Middle East? We should be learning from others past mistakes not just our own. 

We need to not give a shit about what goes on in the Middle East, but as long as OIL runs our world...


----------



## Dot Com (Jun 16, 2014)

Anyone know who said this?  :

Transcript: Speech Against The Iraq War : NPR


> What I am opposed to is a dumb war. What I am opposed to is a rash war. What I am opposed to is the cynical attempt by Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz and other armchair, weekend warriors in this administration to shove their own ideological agendas down our throats, irrespective of the costs in lives lost and in hardships borne.


----------



## JakeStarkey (Jun 16, 2014)

We do not know how to fix it.

Because we can't fix it; the Bush and the Obama admins have shown that.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 16, 2014)

Pennywise said:


> Watch it fall apart under Obama and Kerry. We broke that country and we have no business leaving until we fix it, no matter how much that sucks.


Maybe.

But, the trouble is, we've already left it.

In 2011, right?


----------



## deltex1 (Jun 16, 2014)

ISIS is out in the open...kill them with our killing machines.  General Keane just outlined actions to take on Fox...too bad you missed it.

Special forces kill the leaders
Drones/air strikes on their forces
Intel eyes on the ground


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 16, 2014)

deltex1 said:


> ISIS is out in the open...kill them with our killing machines.  General Keane just outlined actions to take on Fox...too bad you missed it.


Gerald Ford had the same choices in front of him in 1975. He (and/or his people) knew that airstrikes would not prove decisive as a stand-alone tactic, and let it (Vietnam) go.


----------



## Contumacious (Jun 16, 2014)

Seawytch said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > Pennywise said:
> ...



The problem in the ME began in 1949 when Harry Truman recognized the Jewish State in exchange for a couple of million dollars. He needed to money to defeat Dewey.

Since then the US has given the Talmudist entity over 100 BBBBBBBBillions dollars. That money has been used by the Zionists to perpetrate the Palestinian Holocaust. And that *IS* the problem.

.


----------



## deltex1 (Jun 16, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> deltex1 said:
> 
> 
> > ISIS is out in the open...kill them with our killing machines.  General Keane just outlined actions to take on Fox...too bad you missed it.
> ...




Ragheads out in the open country do not equate to gooks in the jungle...and our capabilities are centuries advanced since Ford.  Unfortunately civilian leadership is at an all time low.


----------



## Slyhunter (Jun 16, 2014)

Synthaholic said:


> The T said:
> 
> 
> > kaz said:
> ...





> According to The New York Times, "he [Saddam] murdered as many as a million of his people, many with poison gas.


Human rights in Saddam Hussein's Iraq - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> DOING the arithmetic is an imprecise venture. The largest number of deaths attributable to Mr. Hussein's regime resulted from the war between Iraq and Iran between 1980 and 1988, which was launched by Mr. Hussein. Iraq says its own toll was 500,000, and Iran's reckoning ranges upward of 300,000. Then there are the casualties in the wake of Iraq's 1990 occupation of Kuwait. Iraq's official toll from American bombing in that war is 100,000 -- surely a gross exaggeration -- but nobody contests that thousands of Iraqi soldiers and civilians were killed in the American campaign to oust Mr. Hussein's forces from Kuwait. In addition, 1,000 Kuwaitis died during the fighting and occupation in their country.
> 
> Casualties from Iraq's gulag are harder to estimate. Accounts collected by Western human rights groups from Iraqi émigrés and defectors have suggested that the number of those who have ''disappeared'' into the hands of the secret police, never to be heard from again, could be 200,000. As long as Mr. Hussein remains in power, figures like these will be uncheckable, but the huge toll is palpable nonetheless.


http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/26/w...e-has-hussein-killed.html?src=pm&pagewanted=2


----------



## Slyhunter (Jun 16, 2014)

Synthaholic said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> > paulitician said:
> ...



The kurds won't be satisfied with simply a part of Iraq as their country. They are demanding a part of Turkey as well.


----------



## Care4all (Jun 16, 2014)

Slyhunter said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > The T said:
> ...


Wasn't *most* of these mass killings before The Gulf War in 1991?


----------



## Slyhunter (Jun 16, 2014)

Care4all said:


> Slyhunter said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...


um, this particular argument has to do with how many did Hussein kill, not how many were killed since the Gulf war.


----------



## georgephillip (Jun 16, 2014)

Contumacious said:


> Seawytch said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...


*There were many experts in Truman's administration warning about the eternal wars in the Middle East that recognition of a Jewish state in PALESTINE would bring:*

"As reported in a fascinating historical snippet by the late Richard Holbrooke, who helped organize presidential adviser Clark Clifford&#8216;s papers for a co-authored memoir, then-President Harry Truman overruled George Marshall, the secretary of state he 'revered' along with 'James V. Forrestal, George F. Kennan, Robert Lovett, John J. McCloy, Paul Nitze and Dean Acheson&#8221; and did recognize Israel.'" 

Truman's recognition of Israel led to

*Would anyone care to speculate on the next 65 years in the Middle East?*


----------



## Care4all (Jun 16, 2014)

Slyhunter said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > Slyhunter said:
> ...


yes, true....but i thought it was in the context of why we went to war, the second time around....?


----------



## paulitician (Jun 16, 2014)

Synthaholic said:


> paulitician said:
> 
> 
> > In fairness to Obama, this isn't his mess. *However, his funding & arming extremist Terror-linked Rebels in Syria has led to this current mess.* They're on a rampage in both Syria and Iraq. So that is his big blunder. He has contributed to making things worse over there. But it wouldn't be fair blaming the entire Iraq mess on him. He had nothing to do with the decision to invade.
> ...



Neocons and Communists/Progressives agree on much more than most realize. They've both supported funding & arming some very questionable Rebel groups in Syria. This is the Blow Back on that blunder.


----------



## Bush92 (Jun 16, 2014)

Europe, Jordan, and  Saudi Arabia's turn to step and do something for a change. .


----------



## paulitician (Jun 16, 2014)

Contumacious said:


> 1776 said:
> 
> 
> > Using airpower and select spec ops missions to kill ISIS terrorists and help the ISF repel them is a better option than letting ISIS take over Iraq or Iran to take over Iraq making a bigger Iran.
> ...



Yeah, it's an awful mess for sure. For some reason Obama became obsessed with getting rid of Assad. It is eerily similar to Bush's obsession with getting rid of Hussein. That obsession has led to Obama funding & arming some very nasty Terror-linked groups in Syria. He clearly strengthened them. And now they're rampaging across Syria and Iraq. It was a huge blunder. Assad's the safer play, and so was Saddam Hussein.


----------



## paulitician (Jun 16, 2014)

Synthaholic said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> > paulitician said:
> ...



Yes, it's time for the Kurds to have their Homeland. The Turks, Arabs, and Persians have tormented them for centuries. A Kurdish Homeland would be the only positive to come out of the Iraq War.


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## 1776 (Jun 16, 2014)

Turkey could step in but only if they would leave the Kurds alone, which they won't do.


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## paulitician (Jun 16, 2014)

Bush92 said:


> Europe, Jordan, and  Saudi Arabia's turn to step and do something for a change. .



Saudi Arabia is a big part of the problem. They're currently funding & arming these Sunni Terror-linked groups in Syria and Iraq. They want to stop Iran's rise to power & influence in the region. They have to oppose the Shia Syrian and Iraqi Governments.


----------



## BlindBoo (Jun 16, 2014)

jon_berzerk said:


> BlindBoo said:
> 
> 
> > If Congress wants the President to use military force again in Iraq let them vote on a resolution supporting President Obama and giving him the resources necessary.
> ...



I never said he needed Congress.  Which is why I started out saying "If Congress wants the President to use military force again in Iraq ...... "


----------



## paulitician (Jun 16, 2014)

Well let's see, we're fighting against the Iranian-backed Government in Syria while supporting the Iranian-backed Government in Iraq. Obama & Kerry are even talking about working closely with Iran on defeating the Sunni Rebels.

Man is it me, or is there something very wrong with this picture? This bizarre Foreign Interventionist Foreign Policy needs to end. It's time to come home.


----------



## georgephillip (Jun 16, 2014)

paulitician said:


> Well let's see, we're fighting against the Iranian-backed Government in Syria while supporting the Iranian-backed Government in Iraq. Obama & Kerry are even talking about working closely with Iran on defeating the Sunni Rebels.
> 
> Man is it me, or is there something very wrong with this picture? This bizarre Foreign Interventionist Foreign Policy needs to end. It's time to come home.


Kerry mentioned how much harder it is today to manipulate public opinion since the internet appeared. 

We may be at a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to make the rich whores who think they own this world stand up and represent.

Imagine what Changes if the next Manning or Snowden reveals the 28 pages from the Joint House and Senate Investigation into 911 which likely proves the hijackers were financed by Saudi royals.

If we can stop dividing over abortion and gay marriage (in spite of their significance) we can make Changes that will vanish the Republican AND Democratic parties from the page of time, and Fire the Second Shot Heard 'Round the World.


----------



## Pheonixops (Jun 16, 2014)

The T said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > The T said:
> ...



"*The agreement expired at midnight on December 31, 2011*, even though the United States completed its final withdrawal of troops from Iraq on December 16, 2011. The symbolic ceremony in Baghdad officially "cased" (retired) the flag of U.S. forces in Iraq, according to army tradition."


----------



## kaz (Jun 16, 2014)

paulitician said:


> For some reason Obama became obsessed with getting rid of Assad



Obama is Sunni


----------



## GHook93 (Jun 16, 2014)

Pennywise said:


> Watch it fall apart under Obama and Kerry. We broke that country and we have no business leaving until we fix it, no matter how much that sucks.




We should have never tried to build a nation Iraq or any country! We need to take a page from the Russian invasion of Georgia and the US war on Libya ( trading Gaddiff for al Qaeda wasn't good, but the way we fought and won the war was). Attack the entire country, reduce the country to rubble and then get out letting them clean up their own mess. We should have leaned from Vietnam that nation building does of work!


Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com


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## GHook93 (Jun 16, 2014)

I personally want to see Iraq turn into another Syria! Muslims killing Muslims to the 100s of thousands what is not to liken


Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com


----------



## protectionist (Jun 16, 2014)

georgephillip said:


> The T said:
> 
> 
> > tinydancer said:
> ...



How many nuclear weapons ISIS has NOW, is irrelevant to how many they could possess in a relatively short time after taking over Iraq, with all it's massive oil wealth.  All the momentum and cards seem to be pointing in exactly that direction.  Al Qaeda has been talking about whacking the US with nukes for years (the infamous "American Hiroshima). And ISIS has attacking America right in their official charter.  What more so we need ?  Graffiti on the White House ?

  WE are indeed in their crosshairs, and anyone who would deny it is playing with the annihilation of America.


----------



## JakeStarkey (Jun 16, 2014)

Anyone who believes the root issue is the Jewish state is either mentally feeble, woefully ignorant, or mentally malignant.


----------



## Samson (Jun 16, 2014)

kaz said:


> paulitician said:
> 
> 
> > For some reason Obama became obsessed with getting rid of Assad
> ...



Where in heaven's name would you get that idea?


----------



## Samson (Jun 16, 2014)

JakeStarkey said:


> Anyone who believes the root issue is the Jewish state is either mentally feeble, woefully ignorant, or mentally malignant.



As an expert, what would you say is the difference between mentally feeble and mentally malignant?


----------



## georgephillip (Jun 16, 2014)

protectionist said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > The T said:
> ...


Yellowstone is a bigger threat to annihilate America.
Unlike most of the Muslim world, Sh'ia are the majority in Iraq, and they have back-up next door in Iran. If you really worry about smoking guns and mushroom clouds, you should help convince your government to stop killing Muslims for money and market share.






ANSWER Coalition


----------



## Peach (Jun 16, 2014)

Air support, the Mesa Verde is there, or on the way, we need to send more.


----------



## Samson (Jun 16, 2014)

Peach said:


> Air support, the Mesa Verde is there, or on the way, we need to send more.





I like Salsa Verde.








I skipped lunch...

Carry on.


----------



## peach174 (Jun 16, 2014)

georgephillip said:


> protectionist said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...




An eruption from Yellowstone would create an ash cloud that would affect the entire world's atmosphere for a decade or more not just America.

If they get a build up there again. They will do the same thing again to us like they did on 9/11.
This next time it would be our electric grids. Not planes.
Al-Qaeda Calls for 'Electronic Jihad' - Terror group compares US cybersecurity to pre-9/11 aviation


----------



## georgephillip (Jun 16, 2014)

JakeStarkey said:


> Anyone who believes the root issue is the Jewish state is either mentally feeble, woefully ignorant, or mentally malignant.


If you get all your information about Israel's occupation of Palestine from US media, you are not seeing the daily humiliations and crimes inflicted upon indigenous Palestinians by recent migrants from Europe or Russia.

Solving the problem of Palestine would eliminate one source of Arab mistrust towards the west.


----------



## georgephillip (Jun 16, 2014)

Peach said:


> Air support, the Mesa Verde is there, or on the way, we need to send more.


Why do we need to murder, maim, and displace more Muslims, because it has all worked out so well so far?


----------



## peach174 (Jun 16, 2014)

georgephillip said:


> Peach said:
> 
> 
> > Air support, the Mesa Verde is there, or on the way, we need to send more.
> ...



Have we had them attack us since 9/11?
Yes it has worked out, but not now. They are getting their strength back again thanks to this administration.

Because Muslim Terrorists want to murder us.
Did you not read the evidence that they are planning to wipe out electrical girds?


----------



## georgephillip (Jun 16, 2014)

peach174 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > protectionist said:
> ...


*I'm not sure what you mean by "if they get built up there again?"
Al-Qai'da has more fighters and controls more land today than it did before the US maimed, murdered, and displaced millions of innocent Muslim civilians.*

"This is the clearest evidence we've seen that al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups want to attack the cyber systems of our critical infrastructure," said committee chief *Joe Lieberman*, who argued that the video proves that new legislation is needed to protect key networks. 'Congress needs to act now to protect the American public from a possible devastating attack on our electric grid, water delivery systems, or financial networks,' he said."

*Joe Lieberman is one of many politicians and bureaucrats who should be standing trial for their role in lying this country into the invasion of Iraq and for allowing 911 to happen in the first place.*

Al-Qaeda Calls for 'Electronic Jihad' - Terror group compares US cybersecurity to pre-9/11 aviation


----------



## Slyhunter (Jun 16, 2014)

georgephillip said:


> Peach said:
> 
> 
> > Air support, the Mesa Verde is there, or on the way, we need to send more.
> ...


They're terrorism is proof we didn't kill enough.


----------



## kaz (Jun 16, 2014)

Samson said:


> kaz said:
> 
> 
> > paulitician said:
> ...



He's a Sunni sympathizer if you prefer.   His only real God is himself.  The left agree with him on that.


----------



## Plasmaball (Jun 16, 2014)

kaz said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > kaz said:
> ...



the only people who agree with this are retards....you are a retard


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 16, 2014)

deltex1 said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > deltex1 said:
> ...


Trouble is, ISIS will not be operating in the open; they'll be operating in scattered hunter-killer packs over open terrain, rather than Highway-of-Death -caliber convoy concentrations, and, for the most part, actually operating within settled areas (villages, towns, cities), with tons of innocent civilians nearby. Oh, and, by the way, once the NVA began its final campaign against the South, they were utilizing the open roads to move mechanized infantry and artillery and armor, just like the other guys, if memory serves correctly.

The analogy stands.

I don't have much confidence in our leadership either, but, when airpower by itself is unlikely to prove decisive, then airpower by itself is unlikely to prove decisive;l so, why waste millions (billions?) more on expensive munitions when what's really needed is airpower plus boots on the ground?

2014 = 1975. Baghdad = Saigon. ISIS = the NVA. Maliki & Co. = ARVN.

The analogy stands.

If the Iraqis show us they can hold on, and reverse various ISIS gains, then, maybe we can consider airstrikes, but, until we've reached such a tipping point, I, for one, would prefer that we stay out of this train-wreck.


----------



## kaz (Jun 16, 2014)

Plasmaball said:


> kaz said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...



He's a narcissist.  And I've never seen a politician more worshiped as the left do.  It's sick.

He pursues the same policies W did, and you are able to see W as evil and Obama as brilliant.  He's cleaning up the country.  With the same policies that destroyed it.

Like in Iraq, he finished W's plan.  Which fixed the problem W created.  What is wrong with you people?


----------



## georgephillip (Jun 16, 2014)

peach174 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > Peach said:
> ...


Why do they want to murder us?
Because we have given Israel carte blanch to occupy all of Palestine, consistently supported Middle East dictators, launched a pair of illegal invasions/occupations that have resulted in millions of refugees, and used our drones from Pakistan to Yemen to murder innocent Muslims?

Our electrical grids have more to fear from solar flares than al-Qa'ida, but if we don't roll back our terror, some of it will blow back.


----------



## 1776 (Jun 16, 2014)

Obama claims "his victory in Iraq" back in 2011.

In 2014...."It's bush's fault the terrorists have risen in power there."


----------



## Clementine (Jun 16, 2014)

Plasmaball said:


> Nope fuck them. ..they wanted us out...we shouldnt have been there..This is what was said would happen when bush when in...



Obama said this wouldn't happen.

If Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood, al Qaeda or the Taliban were the ones being attacked, Obama would help.    Since he doesn't go against the radicals, he is sitting this one out.


----------



## Plasmaball (Jun 16, 2014)

kaz said:


> Plasmaball said:
> 
> 
> > kaz said:
> ...



and now hes a narcissist. look dude, just stop. What you see is nothing new. What you see is today's politics in full swing because the lines have been drawn. Every issue is now the superbowl and that side must win. 

you got suckered, fully and its only hurting yourself. 

But here is the kicker, you dont see it that way. So what you will do ( or i should say would have done) is respond to my post in some partisan way about how Obama is destroying the nation because he is some radical Commie, muslim, narcissist, who wants to shove his progressive radical muslim loving ideas down our throats. 

The truth he isnt. He is simply a man.


----------



## georgephillip (Jun 16, 2014)

Slyhunter said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > Peach said:
> ...


Their terrorism is proof you can't kill innocent Muslim without blow-back.


----------



## Plasmaball (Jun 16, 2014)

Clementine said:


> Plasmaball said:
> 
> 
> > Nope fuck them. ..they wanted us out...we shouldnt have been there..This is what was said would happen when bush when in...
> ...



thats why he is sending carriers to the ME as an option in helping Iraq. 


US sends aircraft carrier to Persian Gulf as Obama considers air strikes in Iraq | World news | theguardian.com


Do you even bother to read the news you fucking moron? Seriously you are one stupid motherfucker.Punch yourself in the face next time instead of posting. It will do the same amount of good.


----------



## peach174 (Jun 16, 2014)

georgephillip said:


> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...



The Koran tells them to.
Their enemies are Jews and Christians.
They are the same types of Muslims that we fought with in the Barbary Coast Wars. We did nothing to them in the 1700's. Yet they extorted money from us by taking Americans as Prisoners.
It is not because of what we did.
Even we would have done nothing to them they would still want to kill us because we are the Big Satan and Israel is the little Satan.


----------



## peach174 (Jun 16, 2014)

They want to wipe off the Earth every Jew and Christian on this planet.
Why do you think that they are killing all of the Christians over there and destroying the Churches?
The Christians over there have done nothing to them.


----------



## Plasmaball (Jun 16, 2014)

peach174 said:


> They want to wipe off the Earth every Jew and Christian on this planet.
> Why do you think that they are killing all of the Christians over there and destroying the Churches?
> The Christians over there have done nothing to them.



religions tend to want to wipe the other one out. Convert or dont get into heaven.


----------



## georgephillip (Jun 16, 2014)

peach174 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > peach174 said:
> ...


*Oil changed everything.*

"The Red Line Agreement had been 'part of a network of agreements made in the 1920s to restrict supply of petroleum and ensure that the major [mostly American] companies ... could control oil prices on world markets'.[6] 

"The Red Line agreement governed the development of Middle East oil for the next two decades. 

"The Anglo-American Petroleum Agreement of 1944 was based on negotiations between the United States and Britain over the control of Middle Eastern oil. 

"Below is shown what the American President Franklin D. Roosevelt had in mind for to a British Ambassador in 1944:

"Persian oil ... is yours. We share the oil of Iraq and Kuwait. As for Saudi Arabian oil, it's ours.[7]"

*Keep in mind the US was the world's leading oil exporter when FDR had this conversation.

When the next New Pearl Harbor strikes, we will have no one to blame except those who get rich from eternal war and endless debt*

United States foreign policy in the Middle East - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Samson (Jun 16, 2014)

georgephillip said:


> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...


----------



## georgephillip (Jun 16, 2014)

peach174 said:


> They want to wipe off the Earth every Jew and Christian on this planet.
> Why do you think that they are killing all of the Christians over there and destroying the Churches?
> The Christians over there have done nothing to them.


*There are more than a billion Muslims on the planet; how many want to exterminate all Jews and Christians. The Christians "over there" may not have done anything to Muslims, but Christians in the US and Europe have done a great deal.
*
"Conventional wisdom in American politics focuses only on American costs in the war in Iraq: the casualties to U.S. soldiers, the financial costs, and sometimes the strategic costs. But the human cost to the Iraqis themselves are nearly ignored in political discourse, the news media, and intellectual circles. This site is a corrective to those oversights. We present empirical reports, studies, and other accounts that convey and assess the consequences of war for the people of Iraq. "

The Human Cost of the War in Iraq


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 16, 2014)

None of this Happy Horseshit in Iraq is driven primarily by the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

This is about creating a power-base for a myriad of purposes, not just one.

There's a whole zone on this board-system, for discussion of the Israeli-Palestine conflict.

This ain't it.

Perhaps it's time to ease-off about talk with Israel and to get this thread back on track?

It's true, that it's all connected, but perhaps, here, we would do better to focus upon the Primary Issue, rather than collateral ones?


----------



## Peach (Jun 16, 2014)

The Sunni Saudis have been funding ISIS

*Such a setback for Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki has been the dream of Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah for years. He has regarded Maliki as little more than an Iranian stooge, refusing to send an ambassador to Baghdad and instead encouraging his fellow rulers of the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) -- Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, the United Arab Emirates, and Oman -*- to take a similar standoff-ish approach. A*lthough vulnerable to al Qaeda-types at home, these countries (particularly Kuwait and Qatar) have often turned a blind eye to their citizens funding radical groups like Jabhat al-Nusra, one of the most active Islamist groups opposed to Assad in Syria. *
Currently on vacation in Morocco, King Abdullah has so far been silent on these developments. At 90-plus years old, he has shown no wish to join the Twitter generation, but the developments on the ground could well prompt him to cut short his stay and return home. He has no doubt realized that -- with his policy of delivering a strategic setback to Iran by orchestrating the overthrow of Assad in Damascus showing little sign of any imminent success -- events in Iraq offer a new opportunity.


----------



## JakeStarkey (Jun 16, 2014)

georgephillip said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone who believes the root issue is the Jewish state is either mentally feeble, woefully ignorant, or mentally malignant.
> ...



I agree: forcibly cleanse the Palestinians to the Arab nations.

They have shown they will not live in peace.

The Arabs lost by verdict of Arms three times now.


----------



## georgephillip (Jun 16, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> None of this Happy Horseshit in Iraq is driven primarily by the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
> 
> This is about creating a power-base for a myriad of purposes, not just one.
> 
> ...


*That's a good idea.
(I knew you had ONE)
Possibly the happy horse shit we are seeing in Iraq is validating Colonel Ralph's map of the New Middle East?*






*How long before "Free" Kurdistan makes its appearance?*

Plans for Redrawing the Middle East: The Project for a ?New Middle East? | Global Research


----------



## peach174 (Jun 17, 2014)

georgephillip said:


> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> > They want to wipe off the Earth every Jew and Christian on this planet.
> ...




There is a big difference between Muslim Terrorists and Muslims.

Yeah and we are now allowing the same ones back in there who murdered and tortured more Iraqis than the entire time our troops where there.

I don't know why you think the news is ignoring it. It's all over the front of newspapers.

Newseum | Today's Front Pages | Daily News


----------



## peach174 (Jun 17, 2014)

georgephillip said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > None of this Happy Horseshit in Iraq is driven primarily by the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
> ...




That is not Bush's policy. That is the U.N.'s policy draw-en up by a retired U.S. Colonel.
Bush wanted Iraq united with the people in charge who allowed freedom for women to become educated and the people to vote. 

This is what Kerry is pushing for. This is exactly what Iran wants so that they can take over in controlling Iraq.
If that happens Iran will control that oil and get a lot of money and gets them closer to Israel in order to wipe them off the map.
It gives them the money to continue with their nuclear weapons.
That's just great, Kerry is pushing for our enemy Iran to get nukes.


----------



## High_Gravity (Jun 17, 2014)

martybegan said:


> Grampa Murked U said:
> 
> 
> > The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
> ...



I like this.


----------



## georgephillip (Jun 17, 2014)

peach174 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > peach174 said:
> ...


If you believe in the validity of the Nuremburg judgements where aggression was defined as the supreme international crime, differing from other war crimes because it encompasses all the evil that follows, Bush and Blair should be hanged for igniting the Sunni/Shite conflict.

All of those "who murdered and tortured more Iraqis than the entire time our troops were there" would never have been in Iraq absent the Bush invasion in 2003.

Maybe it's time for US War Crimes Trials?


----------



## 1776 (Jun 17, 2014)

This thread is like the Star Wars bar scene with kooks like the socialist, losertarians and liberals with their demented views on display.

The typical bullshit is "this isn't our problem because it doesn't affect life in the trailer park or ghetto here."

Of course the mental midgets acting like they graduated from junior high school (we know is a lie) believe that the US military would never need to get involved if Iran or AQ/ISIS took over the middle east oil supply and could destabilize the world economy. Your fellow scum said the same things back in the 1930s about "those little people in Japan" and "crazy drunk Germans."

The problem is the US military has to clean up your fucking mess that you create by waiting until it's too late, see 9-11, WW2, etc. It's better to clean up the scum before they spread and get more powerful....


----------



## paulitician (Jun 17, 2014)

Peach said:


> The Sunni Saudis have been funding ISIS
> 
> *Such a setback for Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki has been the dream of Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah for years. He has regarded Maliki as little more than an Iranian stooge, refusing to send an ambassador to Baghdad and instead encouraging his fellow rulers of the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) -- Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, the United Arab Emirates, and Oman -*- to take a similar standoff-ish approach. A*lthough vulnerable to al Qaeda-types at home, these countries (particularly Kuwait and Qatar) have often turned a blind eye to their citizens funding radical groups like Jabhat al-Nusra, one of the most active Islamist groups opposed to Assad in Syria. *
> Currently on vacation in Morocco, King Abdullah has so far been silent on these developments. At 90-plus years old, he has shown no wish to join the Twitter generation, but the developments on the ground could well prompt him to cut short his stay and return home. He has no doubt realized that -- with his policy of delivering a strategic setback to Iran by orchestrating the overthrow of Assad in Damascus showing little sign of any imminent success -- events in Iraq offer a new opportunity.



Good observation. The Sunni Rebels in Iraq aren't going away. They're very well-funded by Saudi Arabia and other wealthy Sunni Nations in the region. They despise the Shiites and especially Iran. They're doing the same in Syria. They're very concerned with Iran's rapidly expanding power & influence. 

It's not really about the U.S. anymore. We can do some bombing, but the Sunni Rebels in Iraq will survive and continue fighting. It's an awful mess for sure. And yes, we are responsible for the mess. Iran & Al Qaeda's power in the region has grown since the Iraq War. It was a monumental blunder.


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## Remodeling Maidiac (Jun 17, 2014)

I wonder what our soldiers think. Especially the ones that were wounded in Iraq.


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## paulitician (Jun 17, 2014)

1776 said:


> This thread is like the Star Wars bar scene with kooks like the socialist, losertarians and liberals with their demented views on display.
> 
> The typical bullshit is "this isn't our problem because it doesn't affect life in the trailer park or ghetto here."
> 
> ...



There wouldn't be so many messes to clean up if we'd stop creating so many of em. We screwed the pooch on Iraq. We as Americans have to accept that. It was a monumental blunder which has allowed Iran and Al Qaeda to seize more power & influence in the region. 

We need to dramatically scale back our presence in the Middle East and stop meddling in their internal affairs. In fact, we need to adopt that same approach all around the World. Your aggressive Foreign Interventionist agenda has bankrupted us. It's time for change. It's time to come home.


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## paulitician (Jun 17, 2014)

Grampa Murked U said:


> I wonder what our soldiers think. Especially the ones that were wounded in Iraq.



I'm sure many are disappointed. But i'm sure they aren't surprised. They were used & abused. And for what? So Iran and Al Qaeda could gain more power & influence in the region? Obama is doing the same thing in Afghanistan. They're currently working on deals which will hand a good portion of Afghanistan over to the Taliban. 

The Globalist Elite Politicians just use our Soldiers to advance their own agendas. Look at VP Biden's little brat son getting rich in Ukraine. Just follow the money. Never forget what one evil SOB Globalist Elite had to say about our Soldiers...

"Military Men are just dumb, stupid animals to be used as pawns in Foreign Policy." - Henry Kissinger


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## LogikAndReazon (Jun 17, 2014)

Code Pink and the French should guide our foreign policies.... Lol


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## paulitician (Jun 17, 2014)

LogikAndReazon said:


> Code Pink and the French should guide our foreign policies.... Lol



Surely you're not implying that the Iraq War has been good for our Country? Let's see, $Trillions wasted, Thousands of Soldiers maimed & killed, and a more powerful Iran and Al Qaeda? Yeah, doesn't sound like a good deal for the American People. It was a monumental blunder for sure.


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## georgephillip (Jun 17, 2014)

1776 said:


> This thread is like the Star Wars bar scene with kooks like the socialist, losertarians and liberals with their demented views on display.
> 
> The typical bullshit is "this isn't our problem because it doesn't affect life in the trailer park or ghetto here."
> 
> ...


*War of Aggression.
Responsible for all the evil that follows.
Hang Bush, Blair, and Cheney*

"I suggest that an 'aggressor' is generally held to be that state which is the first to commit any of the following actions:

"(1) Declaration of war upon another State;

"(2) Invasion by its armed forces, with or without a declaration war, of the territory of another State;

"(3) Attack by its land, naval, or air forces, with or without a declaration of war, on the territory, vessels, or aircraft of another Stat6 ;

"(4) Provision of support to armed bands formed in the territory of another State, or refusal, notwithstanding the request of the invaded State, to take in its own territory, all the measures in its power to deprive those bands of all assistance or protection."

Opening address for the United States/Part 10 - Wikisource, the free online library


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## Vandalshandle (Jun 17, 2014)

I don't give a rat's ass about Iraq, and never have. We never should have been there, and we should never go back. Bombing them is not going to make even the slightest difference in this conflict, one way or another. The tribal and religious wars of that region are perpetual, and anyone who thinks that we can make things better is just plain ignorant of history, geography and politics. Bush was at fault for invading, and Obama is at fault for not pulling out immediately. Vietnam and North Korea have already proven that you can't stop this kind of crap from happening with modern weapons and military hardware, but our politicians are too damned dumb to "get it".


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## paulitician (Jun 17, 2014)

georgephillip said:


> 1776 said:
> 
> 
> > This thread is like the Star Wars bar scene with kooks like the socialist, losertarians and liberals with their demented views on display.
> ...



The Constitution is the roadmap for issues of War. If they had followed the Constitution and debated the War properly, it probably wouldn't have happened. These interventions are wrong. The Iraq War has only made things worse for the American People. A more powerful Iran and Al Qaeda has been the tragic result. We need to force our Politicians to follow the Constitution. Most of these awful blunders would likely be avoided.


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## georgephillip (Jun 17, 2014)

paulitician said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > 1776 said:
> ...


We need prosecutions of some kind to make sure such blunders aren't perpetrated in the future. It seems unlikely a majority of Americans would get behind trials for war crimes, but many might support prosecution of the graft and corruption that ran rampant during the US occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan.

Official Study: US Wasted Billions in Iraq, Afghanistan -- News from Antiwar.com


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## Samson (Jun 17, 2014)

georgephillip said:


> paulitician said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...



Where is Eric "Fast 'n Furious" Holder when you need him?


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## Bush92 (Jun 17, 2014)

Never in favor of going in from the get-go. Afghanistan =YES Iraq=FUCK NO!


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## georgephillip (Jun 17, 2014)

Samson said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > paulitician said:
> ...


Probably on his way back to Covington & Burling.


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## bendog (Jun 17, 2014)

Grampa Murked U said:


> I wonder what our soldiers think. Especially the ones that were wounded in Iraq.



I think they knew the "mission" was fubar but they did their best to help others in their units get through as best they could.  I think your question would better be asked of posters who supported BushII elective war in the first damn place.


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## Kondor3 (Jun 17, 2014)

Grampa Murked U said:


> I wonder what our soldiers think. Especially the ones that were wounded in Iraq.


Vietnam... 2-3 years after leaving... but with sand, this time?


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## Kondor3 (Jun 17, 2014)

georgephillip said:


> ...War of Aggression.
> Responsible for all the evil that follows.
> Hang Bush, Blair, and Cheney...


Whatever for?

If it keeps Militant Islam busy killing each other in large numbers for a decade or two, what the hell...

Give the bastards a medal...


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## georgephillip (Jun 17, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > ...War of Aggression.
> ...


For war crimes?
What do you plan on giving the bastards when the next 911 hits?


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## Kondor3 (Jun 17, 2014)

georgephillip said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...


The codes for the nuclear football?

We'll just wink at the rest, because it involves Militant Muslims killing each other in large quantities.


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## georgephillip (Jun 17, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...


Wink at the codes for nuclear winter?


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## Kondor3 (Jun 17, 2014)

georgephillip said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > georgephillip said:
> ...


Nahhhhh... just a half-dozen low-yield city-busters... nothing as dramatic as that.


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## Antares (Jun 17, 2014)

We need to blast these convoys of our equipment going into Syria.

Obama needs to butch up and make the call.


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## U2Edge (Jun 17, 2014)

paulitician said:


> Peach said:
> 
> 
> > The Sunni Saudis have been funding ISIS
> ...



That's not totally true. Saudi Arabia has funded many different rebel groups in Syria, but they have grown concerned about ISIS. Hell, even Al Quada has. 

One thing to remember in all this is the demographics of Iraq:

*IRAQ*
60% Shia ARAB
20% Sunni ARAB
15% KURD
05% others to include Turks, Persians, Jews, and Christians. 

Its very difficult to be successful in a sectarian war when your sect at most is only 20% of the population.

*SYRIA*
76% Sunni ARAB
12% Alawite(similar to shia)
12% Christian, Druze, others. 

           The Alawites are still in control of much of Syria including the central government because the Syrian military force and structure is still intact and has tens of thousands of heavy weapons systems. The only thing that is preventing the Alawite ruling minority from being crushed by the Sunni Arab majority is the Syrian Military. 

             In Iraq, the Sunni Arab's no longer have Saddam's regime or Saddam's military. At 20% of the population, and with the least rich oil reserves in the Sunni Arab majority provinces, their chances of winning a sectarian war against the other 80% are slim to none, despite the events of the past week. 

           If Maliki corrects the mistakes he has made the past 3 years since US troops left and reaches out to the Sunni ARAB community, he might be able to save his own job as President of a united Iraq. The ISIS terrorist have very little to play with given the demographics in Iraq and if you could erase the mistakes of the past 3 years, they never would have been able to cross the border from Syria.


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## georgephillip (Jun 18, 2014)

*Possibly the biggest mistake of all since the disastrous illegal invasion of Iraq took place was the dissolution of the Iraqi army. Had that not occurred, ISIS would have found it much more difficult to acquire its caliphate.*

"Baghdad, Iraq (CNN) -- Iraq's military claimed Wednesday to have driven back militants who stormed the country's main oil refinery in the town of Baiji, the latest front in the battle for control of swaths of Iraq.

"Iraqi forces killed 40 militants from the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria, or ISIS, said Iraqi military spokesman Gen. Qasem Atta, in a televised news conference. Baiji is 225 kilometers (140 miles) north of Baghdad, the capital.

"'*The situation in Tal Afar, Samarra, and Baiji is under control,*' Atta said.

"He claimed that Iraq's military were 'defeating ISIS in the Baiji area' and that 'most of the areas' around the northwestern city of Tal Afar were liberated."

Iraq crisis: ISIS driven back from Baiji oil refinery, military says - CNN.com


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## LogikAndReazon (Jun 18, 2014)

And to think all Saddam had to do was adhere to binding UN resolutions and allow weapons inspectors unrestricted access...

The continuation of the war in iraq was that ragheads fault...nobody elses...


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## georgephillip (Jun 18, 2014)

LogikAndReazon said:


> And to think all Saddam had to do was adhere to binding UN resolutions and allow weapons inspectors unrestricted access...
> 
> The continuation of the war in iraq was that ragheads fault...nobody elses...


The illegal US invasion of Iraq is the primary reason for all the mayhem in the Middle East since March of 2003. Those who support and profit from a war of aggression often blame their victims.


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## LogikAndReazon (Jun 18, 2014)

War of 'aggression" .... Hardly

Our restraint was remarkable and is to be commended.
Now we should show those jihadist animals no mercy...

Eh, marxist tool ???


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## georgephillip (Jun 18, 2014)

LogikAndReazon said:


> War of 'aggression" .... Hardly
> 
> Our restraint was remarkable and is to be commended.
> Now we should show those jihadist animals no mercy...
> ...


War of aggression as in the supreme international crime, differing from other war crimes only because it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole. Like the evil you corporate porkers are squealing about in Syria and Mosul, Cracker.


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## LogikAndReazon (Jun 18, 2014)

Yes, yes.... Lets ask the monumental douchebags over at the "international criminal court" what the implications are...

Because the opinions of European socialists, third world banana republics and marxist totalitarians matter....... Lol


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## Synthaholic (Jun 18, 2014)

LogikAndReazon said:


> And to think all Saddam had to do was adhere to binding UN resolutions and allow weapons inspectors unrestricted access...
> 
> The continuation of the war in iraq was that ragheads fault...nobody elses...


He did.

Then Bush said it was too late, even though we hadn't invaded yet.


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## edthecynic (Jun 18, 2014)

Synthaholic said:


> LogikAndReazon said:
> 
> 
> > And to think all Saddam had to do was adhere to binding UN resolutions and allow weapons inspectors unrestricted access...
> ...



That's right! The lying BushWhacker ordered the UN to remove the inspectors.

USATODAY.com - U.S advises weapons inspectors to leave Iraq

U.S advises weapons inspectors to leave Iraq
VIENNA, Austria (AP)  In the clearest sign yet that war with Iraq is imminent,* the United States has advised U.N. weapons inspectors to begin pulling out of Baghdad*, the U.N. nuclear agency chief said Monday.


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## AmericanFirst (Jun 18, 2014)

edthecynic said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > LogikAndReazon said:
> ...


Because hussein wasn't cooperating and sabotaging their work, but keep on posting lies and half truths like most idiot libtards do. Bush was 10 times better than obamashitforbrains but you idiots can't get obamashitforbrains dick out of your mouth to see it.


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## dilloduck (Jun 18, 2014)

edthecynic said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > LogikAndReazon said:
> ...



Cmon ---even your own link says "advised" not "ordered". If you insist on telling lies at least be sneaky.


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## BlindBoo (Jun 18, 2014)

AmericanFirst said:


> edthecynic said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...



A complete fabrication.

"In the buildup to the war, Saddam Hussein and the Iraqis were cooperating with U.N. inspections, and in February 2003 had provided Blix's team with the names of hundreds of scientists to interview, individuals Saddam claimed had been involved in the destruction of banned weapons. Had the inspections been allowed to continue, Blix said, there would likely be a very different situation in Iraq today. As it was, America's pre-emptive, unilateral actions "have bred more terrorism there and elsewhere.""

U.N. weapons inspector Hans Blix faults Bush Administration for lack of "critical thinking" in Iraq

There you have it.  Han Blix, the head of the UN inspection team predicted in 2004 the eventual outcome of the Bush Administrations (and Blairs) lies about Iraq would bred more terrorist.


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## Samson (Jun 18, 2014)

BlindBoo said:


> AmericanFirst said:
> 
> 
> > edthecynic said:
> ...



Probably about 500+ threads that rehash the finger pointing over the start of the Iraq war.

I'm interested in what Obama has done for the past 6 years, and why he's let Iraq fall apart in the past month.



Poor leadership.

***unsub***


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## paulitician (Jun 18, 2014)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQJOYsY11L0]Ron Paul's Texas Straight Talk 6/16/14: Haven't We Already Done Enough Damage in Iraq? - YouTube[/ame]


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## georgephillip (Jun 18, 2014)

I wonder if Dr. Paul can tell us how to make peace more profitable than war?

Perhaps as a first step, we could force congress to investigate the huge amounts of graft and corruption that marred our invasions/occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan and continue to this minute?


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## edthecynic (Jun 18, 2014)

AmericanFirst said:


> edthecynic said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...


Just another Right-wing/GOP lie. If you watched the video, which obviously you didn't, you would have seen Hans Blix testify that he had unfettered access to everything including unannounced inspections.


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## LogikAndReazon (Jun 18, 2014)

You mean at the very last second when war was imminent saddam was able to convince little brained liberals he was serious this time ?  Gullible imbeciles they are...


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## Steinlight (Jun 18, 2014)

Saddam, miss him yet?


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## BlindBoo (Jun 18, 2014)

Samson said:


> BlindBoo said:
> 
> 
> > AmericanFirst said:
> ...



Probably so.  Republicans are always trying to rewrite the history of how it began.  

Iraq is Bushes baby from start to finish.  He broke it. He couldn't fix it.  He passed his monumental strategic blunder to the next president.  His decision to invade and occupy Iraq created more terrorist and resentment toward America.  And now the Republicans desperately want to blame President Obama for President Bushes failure in Iraq.

Typical Republican deflection.

Sore losers.


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## Steinlight (Jun 18, 2014)

Does ISIS have a US branch office?


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## edthecynic (Jun 18, 2014)

Steinlight said:


> Saddam, miss him yet?


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## georgephillip (Jun 18, 2014)

"Iraq has asked the US to stage air attacks on Sunni insurgents as the Islamist fighters edged closer to full control of Iraq's largest oil refinery and continued to hold out against troops trying to retake the city of Tal Afar.

"As the war to redefine the region's borders entered a second week, Iraq's foreign minister, Hoshyar Zebari, appeared on al-Arabiya television to issue the urgent plea: 'We request the United States to launch air strikes against militants.'

"Witnesses at the Baiji refinery  between the cities of Mosul and Tikrit, both seized by the insurgent group last week  said insurgents broke through the perimeter of the site early on Wednesday and were within sight of administration buildings."

Iraq requests US air strikes as Isis insurgents tighten grip on oil refinery | World news | The Guardian

*Loss of the refinery at Baiji would bring back gas lines and reduced electricity in Baghdad, making Maliki's hold on the government even shakier.

What follows the US puppet could be even worse for Iraq's Sunni and Shiite civilians. *


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## candycorn (Jan 5, 2020)

Grampa Murked U said:


> The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
> Seems strange to me that we would spend all the money & lives just to let it fall in a matter of weeks/months.



I wonder how many would admit to supporting the great Iraqi misadventure today?


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## francoHFW (Jan 5, 2020)

edthecynic said:


> Steinlight said:
> 
> 
> > Saddam, miss him yet?


A total mess since Reagan... Stupidest crap ever.


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## Desperado (Jan 5, 2020)

They voted us out, it is past time to leave. we are no longer wanted there.


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## healthmyths (Jan 5, 2020)

candycorn said:


> Grampa Murked U said:
> 
> 
> > The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
> ...



First of all you evidently have little if no FACTS about Iraq.

Hey... I totally supported the 1991War and the 2001 Liberation of Iraq  because AT that time the USA was importing from OPEC
In During December 2002, the United States imported 11.3 million barrels of oil from Iraq.
In 2018 2,890,000 barrels per day
How Oil Influenced the 2003 US Invasion of Iraq
The last time the U.S. exported more oil than it imported was 1953.
Plus the same intelligence sources that the Democrats today say are totally unbiased, etc...
not accounting for these people's anti-Trump statements:
*Ex-CIA Director John Brennan Accuses Trump Of Treason Following Putin Summit*
*Former Director of National Intelligence James Clapper accused President Trump of ‘aiding and abetting our arch adversary’ following Trump’s summit with Putin in Helsinki, Finland Monday.*
*And the same democrats  supported Iraq Liberation...*

"Together we must also confront the new hazards of chemical and biological weapons, and the outlaw states, terrorists and organized criminals seeking to acquire them. Saddam Hussein has spent the better part of this decade, and much of his nation's wealth, not on providing for the Iraqi people, but on developing nuclear, chemical and biological weapons and the missiles to deliver them." 
       President Clinton, Jan. 27, 1998.   

"It is essential that a dictator like Saddam not be allowed to evade international strictures and wield frightening weapons of mass destruction. As long as UNSCOM is prevented from carrying out its mission, the effort to monitor Iraqi compliance with Resolution 687 becomes a dangerous shell game. Neither the United States nor the global community can afford to allow Saddam Hussein to continue on this path." 
       Sen. Tom Daschle (D, SD), Feb. 12, 1998    

"Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face." 
       Madeleine Albright, Feb. 18, 1998.    

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983." 
       Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb. 18, 1998.    

"We urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs." 
       Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998.    

"As a member of the House Intelligence Committee, I am keenly aware that the proliferation of chemical and biological weapons is an issue of grave importance to all nations. Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." 
      Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998.    

"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies." 
       Madeleine Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999.    
Reasons for War: Things you might have forgotten about Iraq.
All Democrats who totally supported the Liberation of Iraq...BUT when Bush became President???

They and their MSM allies called it an "Invasion of Iraq"....  
Finally maybe you should ask the Iraqi people when
a) 3.6 million Iraqi children who would have starved to death if Saddam was still in power certainly find the price worth it!
Iraq Sanctions Kill Children, U.N. Reports
or
b) these idiots who were against the Liberation of Iraq would be happy that the Per person GDP would still be at  $637 in 2003 or now  after 15 years guess GDP $17,000 in 2017
*If you asked Iraqis today which would they prefer.. $637  versus $17,000 a 2,669% increase *
Middle East :: Iraq — The World Factbook - Central Intelligence Agency


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## candycorn (Jan 5, 2020)

healthmyths said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > Grampa Murked U said:
> ...



And this week after tens of billions of dollars, thousands of Americans dead, the country we “liberated” has told us to get lost.


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## Remodeling Maidiac (Jan 5, 2020)

Which loser troll bumped this trying to take my feelings out of context?


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## Remodeling Maidiac (Jan 5, 2020)

Desperado said:


> They voted us out, it is past time to leave. we are no longer wanted there.


You will get no argument out of me.

Fuck the sand crabs, let them slaughter each other


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## Remodeling Maidiac (Jan 5, 2020)

candycorn said:


> Grampa Murked U said:
> 
> 
> > The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
> ...


I supported it. I was wrong. 

Thing is, I have no say so


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## candycorn (Jan 5, 2020)

Grampa Murked U said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > Grampa Murked U said:
> ...



Fair enough.


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## healthmyths (Jan 6, 2020)

Grampa Murked U said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > Grampa Murked U said:
> ...



Were we wrong in Europe/Japan/Korea as we still have 207,870 troops there?
United States military deployments - Wikipedia


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## candycorn (Jan 6, 2020)

healthmyths said:


> Grampa Murked U said:
> 
> 
> > candycorn said:
> ...



Let me know when their theocratic regimes vote to expel us while we’re still hosing American blood off the streets.   Dumbass!


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## healthmyths (Jan 6, 2020)

candycorn said:


> healthmyths said:
> 
> 
> > Grampa Murked U said:
> ...



So what is the difference between our troops in Europe/Japan/Korea for almost 70 years and troops in Iraq?


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## candycorn (Jan 6, 2020)

healthmyths said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > healthmyths said:
> ...



Has the theocratic parliaments of those nations recently voted us to leave while we are still assisting them in domestic security operations?


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## Bleipriester (Jan 7, 2020)

Grampa Murked U said:


> Ignoring them won't make them leave us alone so whats the solution?


Yes, it will. Maybe not directly after you waged two wars against a country with harsh child-killing sanctions between them, but usually it works. Your local warmonger will not support this statement.


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