# America's loss in Afghanistan, is the End of America as the sole Super Power.



## MisterBeale (Aug 1, 2021)

I read an interesting Article tonight.  As I am reading it, I was thinking of this video;


In this video, the global oligarchs explicitly tell us, the U.S. will not be the world's sole power. . . to this end, it will mean destroying the US as the holder of the world's reserve currency.

Chris Hedges: US Collective Suicide​       July 28, 2021                          
*The return of the Taliban to power will be one more signpost of the end of the American empire — and nobody will be held accountable.








						Chris Hedges: US Collective Suicide
					

The return of the Taliban to power will be one more signpost of the end of the American empire — and nobody will be held accountable.    By Chris Hedges ScheerPost.com The debacle in Afghanistan, which will unravel into chaos with lightning speed over the next few weeks and ensure the return o




					consortiumnews.com
				



*

". . . The two decades of combat, the one trillion dollars spent, the 100,000 troops deployed to subdue Afghanistan, the high-tech gadgets, artificial intelligence, cyberwarfare, Reaper drones armed with Hellfire missiles and GBU-30 bombs and the Global Hawk drones with high-resolution cameras, Special Operations Command composed of elite rangers, SEALs and air commandos, black sites, torture, electronic surveillance, satellites, attack aircraft, mercenary armies, infusions of millions of dollars to buy off and bribe the local elites and train an Afghan army of 350,000 that has never exhibited the will to fight, failed to defeat a guerrilla army of 60,000 that funded itself through opium production and extortion in one of the poorest countries on earth.

<snip>

Mark Twain, who was a fierce opponent of the efforts to plant the seeds of empire in Cuba, the Philippines, Guam, Hawaii and Puerto Rico, wrote an imagined history of America in the 20thcentury where its “lust for conquest” had destroyed “the Great Republic…[because] trampling upon the helpless abroad had taught her, by a natural process, to endure with apathy the like at home; multitudes who had applauded the crushing of other people’s liberties, lived to suffer for their mistake.”

Twain knew that foreign occupations, designed to enrich the ruling elites, use occupied populations as laboratory rats to perfect techniques of control that soon migrate back to the homeland. It was the brutal colonial policing practices in the Philippines, which included a vast spy network along with routine beatings, torture and executions, which became the model for centralized domestic policing and intelligence gathering in the United States. Israeli’s arms, surveillance and drone industries test their products on the Palestinians.

<snip>

The death blow to the American empire will, as McCoy writes, be the loss of the dollar as the world’s reserve currency. This loss will plunge the United States into a crippling, and prolonged depression. It will force a massive contraction of the global military footprint.

The ugly, squalid face of empire, with the loss of the dollar as the reserve currency, will become familiar at home. The bleak economic landscape, with its decay and hopelessness, will accelerate an array of violent and self-destructive pathologies including mass shootings, hate crimes, opioid and heroin overdoses, morbid obesity, suicides, gambling and alcoholism. 

The state will increasingly dispense with the fiction of the rule of law to rely exclusively on militarized police, essentially internal armies of occupation, and the prisons and jails, which already hold 25 percent of the world’s prisoners although the United States represents less than 5 percent of global population.

Our demise will probably come more swiftly than we imagine. When revenues shrink or collapse, McCoy points out, empires become “brittle.” An economy heavily dependent on massive government subsidies to produce primarily weapons and munitions, as well as fund military adventurism, will go into a tailspin with a heavily depreciated dollar, falling to perhaps a third of its former value. Prices will dramatically rise because of the steep increase in the cost of imports. Wages in real terms will decline. 

The devaluation of Treasury bonds will make paying for our massive deficits onerous, perhaps impossible. The unemployment level will climb to depression era levels. Social assistance programs, because of a contracting budget, will be sharply curtailed or eliminated. This dystopian world will fuel the rage and hyper nationalism that put Donald Trump in the White House. It will spawn an authoritarian state to keep order and, I expect, a Christianized fascism.. . . "


This is all stuff that I have been very slowly coming to realize will happen, as this is what led to the rise of the dictators in Germany, Italy, Spain and Russia. . . sad to see the oligarchs use their mechanations to do it to both China and the US.

It would not surprise me to see them orchestrate a war either. . . .


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## ESay (Aug 1, 2021)

The current withdrawal was a logical step. You couldn't stay there forever.


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## Mindful (Aug 1, 2021)

MisterBeale said:


> I read an interesting Article tonight.  As I am reading it, I was thinking of this video;
> 
> 
> In this video, the global oligarchs explicitly tell us, the U.S. will not be the world's sole power. . . to this end, it will mean destroying the US as the holder of the world's reserve currency.
> ...



I trace a lot back to Charlie Wilson.

Two sayings come to mind:

”The road to hell is paved with good intentions".

“No good deed goes unpunished”.


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## Mindful (Aug 1, 2021)




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## zaangalewa (Aug 1, 2021)

What was this what had happened in Afghanistan during the last 20 years? What was this good  for?


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## Peace (Aug 1, 2021)

Leaving Afghanistan was going to happen and the return of the Taliban was going to happen, so that is not what will kill this country…

What is destroying our country is our inability to kick Russian, Chinese and Iranian influence out of countries south of our border from Mexico to South America!

As long as we allow those three countries to influence countries south of us then yes are demise will happen!

As for leaving countries like Afghanistan, well let China pay the price like we did and like the Soviet Union did because if they for one moment believe they can take that region, well they will learn quick they can not and will lose trillions of dollars.

As for replacing the U.S. Dollar with the Chinese Yuan then let the World do it and suffer the consequence of China ruling them because the World deserve it!

Also the World will learn that the China is a house of cards and it will fall just like the Soviet Union did and if and when it does the World will regret backing China…


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## zaangalewa (Aug 1, 2021)

Mad_Jack_Flint said:


> Leaving Afghanistan was going to happen and the return of the Taliban was going to happen, so that is not what will kill this country…
> 
> What is destroying our country is our inability to kick Russian, Chinese and Iranian influence out of countries south of our border from Mexico to South America! ...



What is "destroying" your country is that you like to force every NATO-member to pay much morney for their own armies - while this is nothing else than a waste of money.


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## Mindful (Aug 1, 2021)

Mad_Jack_Flint said:


> Also the World will learn that the China is a house of cards and it will fall just like the Soviet Union did and if and when it does the World will regret backing China…



Eventually they  will collapse, or maybe drown, under the  weight of their own real estate debt. I saw a programme about it.


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## Peace (Aug 1, 2021)

zaangalewa said:


> What is "destroying" your country is that you like to force every NATO-member to pay much morney for their own armies - while this is nothing else than a waste of money.



It is not the job of the U.S. to police the World and if you can not pay your fair share to the NATO defense then call China and Russia and I am sure they will give you a discounted price…


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## zaangalewa (Aug 1, 2021)

Mad_Jack_Flint said:


> It is not the job of the U.S.



Job?



Mad_Jack_Flint said:


> to police the World



So what?



Mad_Jack_Flint said:


> and if you can not pay your fair share to the NATO



Idiot.



Mad_Jack_Flint said:


> defense then call China and Russia and I am sure they will give you a discounted price…



It's really unbelievable how totally stupid are US-Americans. Take your soldiers - leave Germany - yesterday.


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## Peace (Aug 1, 2021)

zaangalewa said:


> Job?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Fine with me, but don’t come a calling when Russia rolls her tanks in with the backing of China…

I mean the idiot is the one that tell their friends to go home because the friend want to go Dutch on the payment, and then cries they have no protection from their true enemies…

Also take the U.N. With you and put it in another country seeing you hate the U.S. so much!


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## there4eyeM (Aug 1, 2021)

The total devastation of America's international capital, primarily by the "W" administration but strenuously added to by others, has led inevitably to this impasse. America is still great and strong despite these traitors, but it must mend its ways.


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## there4eyeM (Aug 1, 2021)

zaangalewa said:


> What is "destroying" your country is that you like to force every NATO-member to pay much morney for their own armies - while this is nothing else than a waste of money.


To whatever extent this is true, you must also share this message with Mr. Putin.


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## Mindful (Aug 1, 2021)

zaangalewa said:


> Job?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



How many German companies went  bankrupt after the first drawdown?

Who relied on the American military presence for their livelihood.

You haven’t been paying attention

Unless......you don’t live in Germany.


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## shockedcanadian (Aug 1, 2021)

The only way America would lose it's sole super power status was because they allowed another nation to rise and surpass them.

That nation is China and from the moment they were allowed into the W.T.O and the West decided they would expand into their market, the dye was cast.  *They expanded their influence and worked tireless to usurp the U.S all the while American businesses, politicians, Wall Street and media assisted them.*  All self-serving, all self-destructive.

If the U.S loses reserve currency status the game is finished.  Your per capita wealth will be cut significantly while Chinas will grow by at least as much.


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## Peace (Aug 1, 2021)

shockedcanadian said:


> The only way America would lose it's sole super power status was because they allowed another nation to rise and surpass them.
> 
> That nation is China and from the moment they were allowed into the W.T.O and the West decided they would expand into their market, the dye was cast.  They expanded their influence and worked tireless to usurp the U.S all the while American businesses, politicians and media assisted them.  All self-serving, all self-destructive.
> 
> If the U.S loses reserve currency status the game is finished.  Your per capita wealth will be cut significantly while Chinas will grow by at least as much.



And the World deserve what it get for wanting China over the U.S. …


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## zaangalewa (Aug 1, 2021)

Mad_Jack_Flint said:


> Fine with me, but don’t come a calling when Russia rolls her tanks in with the backing of China…
> 
> I mean the idiot is the one that tell their friends to go home because the friend want to go Dutch on the payment, and then cries they have no protection from their true enemies…
> 
> Also take the U.N. With you and put it in another country seeing you hate the U.S. so much!


no comment


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## shockedcanadian (Aug 1, 2021)

Mad_Jack_Flint said:


> And the World deserve what it get for wanting China over the U.S. …



The first to suffer will be those who lose all of their investment in China when the CCP confiscates it.  Poetic justice I suppose.

Goldman Sachs, among others (they are far from the only investment firm promoting Chinese investment), have too much influence in the U.S economy, and they are damaging it through their heavy lobbying and investment in China.  Some of them are investing U.S citizens pension funds in this country.

Self destructive and dangerous.


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## Smokin' OP (Aug 1, 2021)

America's loss in Afghanistan, is the End of America as the sole Super Power.​Stupid question.
Sole super power? Not in a very long time.

This general had it figured out a long time ago, guess no one listened.
Major General *Smedley Darlington Butler* (July 30, 1881 – June 21, 1940), nicknamed "*Old Gimlet Eye*", was a senior United States Marine Corps officer who fought in both the Mexican Revolution and World War I. During his 34-year career as a Marine, he participated in military actions in the Philippines, China, and Central America; the Caribbean during the Banana Wars; and France in World War I. Butler was, at the time of his death, the most decorated Marine in U.S. history. By the end of his career, Butler had received 16 medals, five for heroism. He is one of 19 men to receive the Medal of Honor twice, one of three to be awarded both the Marine Corps Brevet Medal (along with Wendell Neville and David Porter) and the Medal of Honor, and the only Marine to be awarded the Brevet Medal and two Medals of Honor, all for separate actions.

 In 1935, Butler wrote a book titled _War Is a Racket_, where he describes and criticizes the workings of the United States in its foreign actions and wars, such as those in which he had been involved, including the American corporations and other imperialist motivations behind them. 

America hasn't "won" a war since 1945, a little over 75 years ago.
The evidence is clear, the US has been in for profit 'wars"  for a little over 70.


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## zaangalewa (Aug 1, 2021)

Mindful said:


> How many German companies went  bankrupt after the first drawdown?
> 
> Who relied on the American military presence for their livelihood.
> 
> ...



... and don't forget to take your nukes with you when you will leave Germany.


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## Peace (Aug 1, 2021)

zaangalewa said:


> no comment


Why?

You were quick to tell me your hate for the U.S. and I agree the U.S. should leave Europe and allow Russian tanks to roll over her with the backing of China and then when you call begging for help, well I would say hell no!

Also take the U.N. with you and put it in Oslo or somewhere in Germany and let it fall apart like the League of Nations and then when you cry “ but I didn’t realize “ well I did.

Look, if you think for one moment Russia or China will be better leading this messed up World then by all means back them but don’t come calling for help when they oppress you more than we have.

I truly understand the United States of America has made huge mistakes in the past and true we shouldn’t have been involved in many of the nonsense we involve ourselves in but we ( the U.S. ) are the lesser of the other evils in this World, but again go let Russia and China rule you and when you learn your lesson just keep on letting them rule you!


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## Mindful (Aug 1, 2021)

zaangalewa said:


> ... and don't forget to take your nukes with you when you will leave Germany.



What gobbledygook are you indulging in now?


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## Peace (Aug 1, 2021)

shockedcanadian said:


> The first to suffer will be those who lose all of their investment in China when the CCP confiscates it.  Poetic justice I suppose.
> 
> Goldman Sachs and others have too much influence in the U.S economy, and they are damaging it through their heavily lobbying and investment in China.  Some of them are investing U.S citizens pension funds in this country.
> 
> Self destructive and dangerous.



Like I wrote if this is what the World wants, well let them have it but do not cry about how they never realized what will happen because they have been warned for two decades now about the threat of China…

Hell, even Russia is not as stupid to think China is their friend and only uses China in it fight with the U.S. …

Hell the former Soviets knew China was a threat and if Putin is wise he would start a proxy-war within China border with the Muslims before it is too late!


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## zaangalewa (Aug 1, 2021)

there4eyeM said:


> To whatever extent this is true, you must also share this message with Mr. Putin.



If you think Russians and Germans hate each other then you are totally wrong.


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## fncceo (Aug 1, 2021)

Britain lost 3 separate wars in Afghanistan in the 19th Century. 

It didn't affect their status as a super power.


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## Peace (Aug 1, 2021)

zaangalewa said:


> If you think Russians and Germans hate each other then you are totally wrong.


So you love the Russians?

Oh lard!

You deserve what you get then!


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## Mindful (Aug 1, 2021)

fncceo said:


> Britain lost 3 separate wars in Afghanistan in the 19th Century.
> 
> It didn't affect their status as a super power.



And then there was the one with you.


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## Peace (Aug 1, 2021)

zaangalewa said:


> If you think Russians and Germans hate each other then you are totally wrong.



My guess is you are a former East German missing the glory days that were not so glory and had East Germans risking their lives to escape…

I am willing to bet if you ask the German population if they want the former Soviet way of life that East Germany endured during it time under the Satellite living of the Soviet Union, well my bet is hell no but you will disagree…


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## there4eyeM (Aug 1, 2021)

zaangalewa said:


> If you think Russians and Germans hate each other then you are totally wrong.


Nothing about the post would indicate such a thought. If you think the Russians love the Germans, that is your problem.


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## zaangalewa (Aug 1, 2021)

Mad_Jack_Flint said:


> So you love the Russians?
> 
> Oh lard!
> 
> You deserve what you get then!



 Every tried to visit a forensic psychiatric hospital? They threw you out because you are too dangerous?


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## zaangalewa (Aug 1, 2021)

fncceo said:


> Britain lost 3 separate wars in Afghanistan in the 19th Century.
> 
> It didn't affect their status as a super power.



Says a member of the British empire?


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## Mindful (Aug 1, 2021)

Mad_Jack_Flint said:


> My guess is you are a former East German missing the glory days that were not so glory and had East Germans risking their lives to escape…
> 
> I am willing to bet if you ask the German population if they want the former Soviet way of life that East Germany endured during it time under the Satellite living of the Soviet Union, well my bet is hell no but you will disagree…



Do you think he might be a bot  troublemaker?


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## Mindful (Aug 1, 2021)

zaangalewa said:


> Says a member of the British empire?



Germans I interact with every day don’t talk like you.

Some of them speak  even better English than I do.


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## Peace (Aug 1, 2021)

zaangalewa said:


> Every tried to visit a forensic psychiatric hospital? They threw you out because you are too dangerous?


So now you are trolling…

You are the one that wrote you wanted the U.S. out of your country, and I agreed and now you call me insane…

Well what is insane is some individual thinking Russia is your buddy and will treat you with the up most respect when Russians still hate Germans for what happened in World War II and I know for a fact East Germans usually hate the Russians unless you were one of the political families that were protected by the Soviet occupation, but hey go suckle Putin nuts while China tell Russia how to control you!


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## zaangalewa (Aug 1, 2021)

there4eyeM said:


> Nothing about the post would indicate such a thought. If you think the Russians love the Germans, that is your problem.



I know fore sure in one case a Russian loves a German and a German loves a Russian. She is pregnant.


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## Mindful (Aug 1, 2021)

Mad_Jack_Flint said:


> So now you are trolling…
> 
> You are the one that wrote you wanted the U.S. out of your country, and I agreed and now you call me insane…
> 
> Well what is insane is some individual thinking Russia is your buddy and will treat you with the up most respect when Russians still hate Germans for what happened in World War II and I know for a fact East Germans usually hate the Russians unless you were one of the political families that were protected by the Soviet occupation, but hey go suckle Putin nuts while China tell Russia how to control you!



His posts bear no relation to reality.


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## Peace (Aug 1, 2021)

zaangalewa said:


> I know fore sure in one case a Russian loves a German and a German loves a Russian. She is pregnant.


Because you love her doesn’t mean shit about how the rest of the society feels!

But

I agree the U.S. should leave Germany, take all it weapons, cut off all trade, and leave Germany in Putin hands because we both know how it went during the last occupation, so enjoy!


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## zaangalewa (Aug 1, 2021)

Mad_Jack_Flint said:


> So now you are trolling…
> 
> You are the one that wrote you wanted the U.S. out of your country, and I agreed and now you call me insane…



So the best is you will leave Germany yesterday, although your reasons are totally different from my reasons. I was convinced from Donald Trump that Germany has to make an emergency break in the relations to the USA.


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## Peace (Aug 1, 2021)

zaangalewa said:


> So the best is you will leave Germany yesterday, although your reasons are totally different from my reasons. I was convinced from Donald Trump that Germany has to make a emergency break in the realations to the USA.


If you got your wish and Russia rules Germany I will let you in on a little secret and you and your love will be serfs within a Empire that will not care about you at all.

At least you are somewhat free now but let the Russians backed by China rule you, well you will discover the U.S. was indeed the lesser of the Evils of the World, but hey I agree let get’er done!

Also you have to take the U.N. with you and you can not beg for any assistance and must endure the tyranny and oppression that will follow…


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## shockedcanadian (Aug 1, 2021)

zaangalewa said:


> So the best is you will leave Germany yesterday, although your reasons are totally different from my reasons. I was convinced from Donald Trump that Germany has to make an emergency break in the relations to the USA.



Trump was not diplomatic in his dealings with the U.S military presence overseas.  It wasn't his best moments in my opinion though on trade, he was more succinct.

It still should be stated that with Germany with their higher tariffs and massive trade surplus with the U.S should have just happily have paid their fair share for their own military funding, and, that of the U.S in their region.

At  the very least, fund their military appropriately and throw a bone to U.S manufacturers with some of that investment.  America has kept you out of Soviet hands for many decades.


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## zaangalewa (Aug 1, 2021)

Mindful said:


> Germans I interact with every day don’t talk like you.
> 
> Some of them speak  even better English than I do.



Because I "speak" a bad English I am not a German? Aha. A German said by the way once to a Russian _"It's impossible"_. The Russian answered:_ "If a German says 'it's impossible' then he only likes not to do so"_. But the reality is more simple: My English is bad and sometimes is something impossible. And it's impossible for me not to be a German.


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## Mindful (Aug 1, 2021)

zaangalewa said:


> Because I "speak" a bad English I am not a German


Nothing to do with that.

Even bad English speakers are very knowledgeable, and can express themselves.


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## zaangalewa (Aug 1, 2021)

shockedcanadian said:


> Trump was not diplomatic in his dealings with the U.S military presence overseas.  It wasn't his best moments in my opinion though on trade, he was more succinct.



This was not the reason. Trump made me clear that there is a wide spread and deep hate against Germany in the USA, although Germany never had done anything bad to the USA in the whole history since the USA exists.



shockedcanadian said:


> It still should be stated that with Germany with their higher tariffs and massive trade surplus with the U.S should have just happily have paid their fair share for their own military funding, and, that of the U.S in their region.
> 
> At  the very least, fund their military appropriately and throw a bone to U.S manufacturers with some of that investment.  America has kept you out of Soviet hands for many decades.



Sorry: Not Germany but the USA and their allies sold a big part of Europe to the Soviets - what was also bad for Russia.


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## Mindful (Aug 1, 2021)

zaangalewa said:


> This was not the reason. Trump made me clear that there is a wode spread and deep hate against Germany in the USA



Not true!


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## badbob85037 (Aug 1, 2021)

zaangalewa said:


> Because I "speak" a bad English I am not a German? Aha. A German said by the way once to a Russian _"It's impossible"_. The Russian answered:_ "If a German says 'it's impossible' then he only likes not to do so"_. But the reality is more simple: My English is bad and sometimes is something impossible. And it's impossible for me not to be a German.


No biden lost in Afghanistan, Not only did he lose He left the Taliban so much military equipment he should be charged with aiding and abiding and I'm sure those troops in DC already have a strong limb tree picked out for Joe.


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## Correll (Aug 1, 2021)

zaangalewa said:


> What is "destroying" your country is that you like to force every NATO-member to pay much morney for their own armies - while this is nothing else than a waste of money.




We can't force you to do anything. Take it up with your leaders. Quite NATO. Leave. France did it, and never paid a price.


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## zaangalewa (Aug 1, 2021)

badbob85037 said:


> No biden lost in Afghanistan, Not only did he lose He left the Taliban so much military equipment he should be charged with aiding and abiding and I'm sure those troops in DC already have a strong limb tree picked out for Joe.



Because of 9/11 we sent some soldiers for 3 month to Afghanistan to look for Osama Bin Laden. 20 years laster comes an army back which did not find Osama Bin Laden. Something had happened in this 20 years. But what was this?


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## zaangalewa (Aug 1, 2021)

Correll said:


> We can't force you to do anything.



So why do you try to do so continously?



Correll said:


> Take it up with your leaders.



With whom?



Correll said:


> Quite NATO. Leave. France did it, and never paid a price.



Why should we leave the NATO? What about to leave the NATO on your own?


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## Smokin' OP (Aug 1, 2021)

zaangalewa said:


> Because of 9/11 we sent some soldiers for 3 month to Afghanistan to look for Osama Bin Laden. 20 years laster comes an army back which did not find Osama Bin Laden. Something had happened in this 20 years. But what was this?


Trump humpers blaming anyone but themselves, it's in their DNA.


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## Correll (Aug 1, 2021)

zaangalewa said:


> So why do you try to do so continously?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1. Because we are supposed to be mutual allies. 

2. With your leaders. Sorry if you are not happy with them. I am not happy with mine either. 

3. Because you are unhappy with being allies with US, and with spending so much on the military. So leave. And I wish that we would leave. I am unhappy with my leaders on this one. Note I blame THEM for American foreign policy, not you.


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## zaangalewa (Aug 1, 2021)

Correll said:


> 1. Because we are supposed to be mutual allies.
> 
> 2. With your leaders. Sorry if you are not happy with them. I am not happy with mine either.
> 
> 3. Because you are unhappy with being allies with US, and with spending so much on the military. So leave. And I wish that we would leave. I am unhappy with my leaders on this one. Note I blame THEM for American foreign policy, not you.



I costs me now too much time to answer to this nonsense here. Take your soloders. Leave Germany. Stop to spy everwhere. And if you like to leave the NATO then do it or not.


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## Correll (Aug 1, 2021)

zaangalewa said:


> I costs me now too much time to answer to this nonsense here. Take your soloders. Leave Germany. Stop to spy everwhere. And if you like to leave the NATO then do it or not.




I wish we would. Nonsense? LOL!!!


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## Mindful (Aug 1, 2021)

Correll said:


> I wish we would. Nonsense? LOL!!!



I don’t think he’s German.

He’s most likely an American.


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## Peace (Aug 1, 2021)

zaangalewa said:


> This was not the reason. Trump made me clear that there is a wide spread and deep hate against Germany in the USA, although Germany never had done anything bad to the USA in the whole history since the USA exists.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry: Not Germany but the USA and their allies sold a big part of Europe to the Soviets - what was also bad for Russia.



What?

No one hate Germany over here any longer…

Sure, back in the 1800’s and half of the 1900’s you guys were hated but come on  you idiots were committing Genocide throughout Europe in the last Great War, so can you blame the world for hating on you?

Since World War II the U.S. has been warm and kind too your country, so I do not get your “ Americans hate Germany “ nonsense and let be clear the Russians love you as much as they love the U.S. or China, which very little to not at all…

As for being sold, well you must be either Eastern German or Polish because only those fools think that way!


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## Correll (Aug 1, 2021)

Mindful said:


> I don’t think he’s German.
> 
> He’s most likely an American.




With lefties does it really matter? THey have no loyalty to their own countries anyways, and they all hate America and the West.


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## ESay (Aug 1, 2021)

Mad_Jack_Flint said:


> So you love the Russians?
> 
> Oh lard!
> 
> You deserve what you get then!


If we exclude 20th century and some early periods of Medieval era, the relationships between Russia and German dynasties were quite good. The Romanov dynasty intermarried with German aristocracy, one of the greatest Russian ruler and reformer Catherine the Great was a pure German who began a process of German peasantry resettlement into the Volga region, a great number of engineers, doctors, scientists working in Russia were the Germans.

During the Cold War it was the West Germany's business who advocated trade deals with the Soviet Union, as well as now it advocates good relations with Russia.

In the late 19th century there was a term 'the Union of three Black Eagles' (which included Russia, Germany and Austria). Something tells the Germans would be glad to establish that now.


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## Peace (Aug 1, 2021)

zaangalewa said:


> I costs me now too much time to answer to this nonsense here. Take your soloders. Leave Germany. Stop to spy everwhere. And if you like to leave the NATO then do it or not.



I disagree with Correl and I blame you sparky!

Just you alone and no one else!!

So when Germany is under Putin thumb do you believe you will be loved by the Russians and if so did you not learn anything during the Soviets occupation of East Germany?


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## Mindful (Aug 1, 2021)

Mad_Jack_Flint said:


> What?
> 
> No one hate Germany over here any longer…
> 
> ...



It _is _nonsense.

That’s why I think he’s not quite kosher.

And there are some other anomalies too.


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## Unkotare (Aug 1, 2021)

"Loss"? What loss?


----------



## Peace (Aug 1, 2021)

ESay said:


> If we exclude 20th century and some early periods of Medieval era, the relationships between Russia and German dynasties were quite good. The Romanov dynasty intermarried with German aristocracy, one of the greatest Russian ruler and reformer Catherine the Great was a pure German who began a process of German peasantry resettlement into the Volga region, a great number of engineers, doctors, scientists working in Russia were the Germans.
> 
> During the Cold War it was the West Germany's business who advocated trade deals with the Soviet Union, as well as now it advocates good relations with Russia.
> 
> In the late 19th century there was a term 'the Union of three Black Eagles' (which included Russia, Germany and Austria). Something tells the Germans would be glad to establish that now.



Some Germans but after the Second Great War and the invasion of East Germany that lasted for decades and caused a wall my gut tell me not all of Germany would agree.

As for German and Russian love and Catherine the Great, well yes she was Prussian but actually if I remember correctly she was born in Poland with more of Swedish lineage than German but she was also related to the Germans also.

Let remember in those days all Monarchs were related and many either come from Rollo the Viking bloodline, Charles the Great or De Medici bloodline when conversing about the lineage of Monarchs and married into many families from Russia to England to Greece.

I personally do not hate Germans and my grandfather was from Bavaria on my mother side and was actually a damn Nazi ( not proud of it ), so I have a little German in me and know Germans and Russians after the Great War and Cold War have very little love for each other and it is only East Germans from political families that usually want to rekindle the old Cold War love between Russia and East Germans but most of them that do are the Children or Grandchildren that don’t remember how awful it was for East Germany back when the Soviets were in control…


----------



## Peace (Aug 1, 2021)

zaangalewa said:


> Because of 9/11 we sent some soldiers for 3 month to Afghanistan to look for Osama Bin Laden. 20 years laster comes an army back which did not find Osama Bin Laden. Something had happened in this 20 years. But what was this?


It called a joint mission that your country agreed to with the cooperation of the U.N. and NATO forces.

Was Bin Laden in Afghanistan?

Nope, and in fact he was where I thought he was the whole time and that was Pakistan but you can not invade a country with a Nuclear arsenal, so you invade the next door neighbor instead and hope to draw Russia, China and Iran into a proxy-war which never happened!


----------



## Peace (Aug 1, 2021)

badbob85037 said:


> No biden lost in Afghanistan, Not only did he lose He left the Taliban so much military equipment he should be charged with aiding and abiding and I'm sure those troops in DC already have a strong limb tree picked out for Joe.


Trump already had us leaving and I agree the withdrawal under Biden was ridiculously fast the fact remains we were leaving…


----------



## Peace (Aug 1, 2021)

zaangalewa said:


> So why do you try to do so continously?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Because without the U.S. NATO would fall apart just like the U.N., so it is Germany that should leave…


----------



## badger2 (Aug 1, 2021)

Fentanyl coming across the U.S.-Mexican border includes that made by the Chinese, even made in Mexico by the Chinese, which makes its way to Missouri. Much further away is this:

’By contrast, determining control is relatively easy in the drug production zones of the Andes or Afghanistan. By simply hiking through the Afghan-Pakistan borderlands, for example, a New York Times reporter could quickly learn the Mullah Nasim rules Helmand’s poppy fields of Hekmatyar owns heroin refineries at Koh-i-Soltan. In these opium highlands, the fact of territorial control makes drug dealing too obvious to conceal. But by the time cocaine reached the Caribbean, it was already two steps removed from the source. Deciding who controlled what aircraft in the cat’s cradle of trans-Caribbean airlines was far more complex.’
(McCoy AW, The Politics of Heroin: CIA Complicity in the Global Drug Trade, p. 488)


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Aug 1, 2021)

zaangalewa said:


> I know fore sure in one case a Russian loves a German and a German loves a Russian. She is pregnant.


What does love have to do with pregnancy?  Ever take biology?


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Aug 1, 2021)

Correll said:


> We can't force you to do anything. Take it up with your leaders. Quite NATO. Leave. France did it, and never paid a price.


Quite NATO what?


----------



## ESay (Aug 1, 2021)

Mad_Jack_Flint said:


> Some Germans but after the Second Great War and the invasion of East Germany that lasted for decades and caused a wall my gut tell me not all of Germany would agree.
> 
> As for German and Russian love and Catherine the Great, well yes she was Prussian but actually if I remember correctly she was born in Poland with more of Swedish lineage than German but she was also related to the Germans also.
> 
> ...


Who knows. The time will show. The Germans are eager to get Russian recourses at affordable price and acces to post-Soviet market through Russia; the Russians are easier to get German technologies and acces to European market.


----------



## ESay (Aug 1, 2021)

Mad_Jack_Flint said:


> Because without the U.S. NATO would fall apart just like the U.N., so it is Germany that should leave…


 Basically, he is right. Nato in its current form has little meaning. It has become too diverse and bureaucratic. It should be deeply reorganised.


----------



## gipper (Aug 1, 2021)

ESay said:


> The current withdrawal was a logical step. You couldn't stay there forever.


You clearly missed the point being made.


----------



## Correll (Aug 1, 2021)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Quite NATO what?




DAMN IT. QUIT!


----------



## gipper (Aug 1, 2021)

MisterBeale said:


> I read an interesting Article tonight.  As I am reading it, I was thinking of this video;
> 
> 
> In this video, the global oligarchs explicitly tell us, the U.S. will not be the world's sole power. . . to this end, it will mean destroying the US as the holder of the world's reserve currency.
> ...


Great column by Hedges, as usual.

Once we lose reserve currency it’s all over. With a demented neocon in the WH, I fear the lose will be sooner rather than later. The consequences won’t be pretty. Few Americans have any understanding of what’s likely to happen, even though history is full of dying empires.


----------



## ESay (Aug 1, 2021)

gipper said:


> You clearly missed the point being made.


Okay, may be.


----------



## Rogue AI (Aug 1, 2021)

The US will remain the world's only superpower for decades to come, nobody else is even close to joining that club, regardless of how much lesser nations wish it were otherwise.


----------



## Peace (Aug 1, 2021)

ESay said:


> Basically, he is right. Nato in its current form has little meaning. It has become too diverse and bureaucratic. It should be deeply reorganised.


Scrap it then, but realize Russia and China are waiting for the stumble by the U.S. and Europe.


----------



## there4eyeM (Aug 1, 2021)

zaangalewa said:


> I know fore sure in one case a Russian loves a German and a German loves a Russian. She is pregnant.


Many German women had babies in 1946 as a result of insemination by Russians, but it had nothing to do with love.


----------



## Peace (Aug 1, 2021)

gipper said:


> Great column by Hedges, as usual.
> 
> Once we lose reserve currency it’s all over. With a demented neocon in the WH, I fear the lose will be sooner rather than later. The consequences won’t be pretty. Few Americans have any understanding of what’s likely to happen, even though history is full of dying empires.


High inflation.

States leaving the Union.

Civil War.

Genocide.

Yeah, we have been warned for decades and nobody listens…


----------



## ESay (Aug 1, 2021)

Mad_Jack_Flint said:


> Scrap it then, but realize Russia and China are waiting for the stumble by the U.S. and Europe.


Of course they are waiting this. And basically I don't want to scrap it, but now Nato reminds me of a Russian story about a swan, pike and crayfish. Everyone pursues their own interests.

You can't spend billions of dollars on building defence from Russia, while another member spends billions on mutual Russian projects which deepen European dependency on Russian energy sources.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Aug 1, 2021)

there4eyeM said:


> Many German women had babies in 1946 as a result of insemination by Russians, but it had nothing to do with love.


Wow! Those were some long term babies considering the war ended 7 months before 1946!


----------



## MisterBeale (Aug 1, 2021)

Mindful said:


> I trace a lot back to Charlie Wilson.
> 
> Two sayings come to mind:
> 
> ...


Did you even read that article?

I am not sure there were any good intentions, or good deeds involved here.


----------



## Peace (Aug 1, 2021)

ESay said:


> Of course they are waiting this. And basically I don't want to scrap it, but now Nato reminds me of a Russian story about a swan, pike and crayfish. Everyone pursues their own interests.
> 
> You can't spend billions of dollars on building defence from Russia, while another member spends billions on mutual Russian projects which deepen European dependency on Russian energy sources.



The European need for Natural Gas is their issue that seem to be Russian Checkmate piece in this whole game.

See when the U.S. invaded Afghanistan and Iraq they had a grand plan of getting Iran to attack and allow the U.S. to go to war with Iran and for what purpose?

Pipelines!

See the U.S. along with other nations played a game thinking they could lure Iran and Syria into a war and allow countries like the U.S. to build a pipeline once they removed certain governments from power and Countries like Russia and China also knew if this were to happen then those pipelines will destroy Russia ability to hold Europe over the barrel for their Natural Gas.

I know it sounds insane but if you look at the former plans you would know the U.S. was after the resources in the region to help supply Europe so Europe would be dependent on American Companies for their Natural Gas needs while taking Russia out or lessen their control.

Ohhh, why am I writing this?


----------



## zaangalewa (Aug 1, 2021)

Correll said:


> 1. Because we are supposed to be mutual allies.



Sure. That's why your the cold war strategy had been to waste Germany with with nukes to stop an attacking Soviet army. And that's why you spie everywhere in Germany. ... Hmmm ... Why we let you spy is another question ...



Correll said:


> 2. With your leaders. Sorry if you are not happy with them. I am not happy with mine either.



I do not even have an idea who could be a leader of Germany. In generla we hate the expression "leader" = "Führer" on historical reasons.



Correll said:


> 3. Because you are unhappy with being allies with US, and with spending so much on the military.



Who said I am unhappy?



Correll said:


> So leave. And I wish that we would leave.



Sure, "ally".



Correll said:


> I am unhappy with my leaders on this one. Note I blame THEM for American foreign policy, not you.



Which US-American "foreign" policy? You are stupid idiots - as stupid idiots as we are in our own. The question is perhaps who's the bigger idiot.


----------



## Peace (Aug 1, 2021)

zaangalewa said:


> Sure. That's why your the cold war strategy had been to waste Germany with with nukes to stop an attacking Soviet army. And that's why you spie everywhere in Germany. ... Hmmm ... Why we let you spy is another question ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You are.


----------



## zaangalewa (Aug 1, 2021)

Mindful said:


> I don’t think he’s German.
> 
> He’s most likely an American.



Is this now an insult or not?


----------



## Death Angel (Aug 1, 2021)

ESay said:


> The current withdrawal was a logical step. You couldn't stay there forever.


Yep. We didnt lose. We kicked butt until we got tired of kicking butt.  If a country CHOOSES tyranny over freedom, eventually they'll have it.

We are going thru the same thing here. Too many on the left side with the American Taliban. If we cant convince them to love individualism over authoritarianism, the country will fall to authoritarianism


----------



## zaangalewa (Aug 1, 2021)

Mad_Jack_Flint said:


> You are.



Sure. Otherwise I would not say "Leave Germany". If I would be "smart" I would just simple create a situation where your soldiers would leave on their own free will, scalped or not scalped. By the way : How ís Texas? Is it meanwhile clear whether only one of their senators, whole Texas or their partner USA declared war on Germany? Same I had to ask two other US-American states - and I had also to ask why the vice president of the USA Kamala Harris had defended this totally stupid idiots - and in this way not only the trumpublicans but also also the totally stupid way how the USA combines votes for the household of the USA with votes for an aggressive foreign policy against allies.


----------



## Peace (Aug 1, 2021)

zaangalewa said:


> Sure. Otherwise I would not say "Leave Germany". If I would be "smart" I would just simple create a situation where your soldiers would leave on their own free will, scalped or not scalped.


Yawn, let be clear the U.S. and Germany will stay as allies no matter what you and I wish and your dream of Russia ruling you or maybe even putting the wall back up, ain’t happening.


----------



## zaangalewa (Aug 1, 2021)

Mad_Jack_Flint said:


> Yawn, let be clear the U.S. and Germany will stay as allies



not under a Führer Trump or any other similar situation



Mad_Jack_Flint said:


> no matter what you and I wish and your dream of Russia ruling you or maybe even putting the wall back up, ain’t happening.



The only problem: Corresponds this what you think or say - or perhaps this what the most of all US-Americans think and say - with any reality in this universe any longer? "The democracy" degenerated under Donald Trump and supported old male autocrats all over this planet and/or the children of this autocrats in the xth generation. This helps many nations to justify the violent nonsense they are doing.


----------



## Peace (Aug 1, 2021)

zaangalewa said:


> not under a Führer Trump or any other similar situation
> 
> 
> 
> The only problem: Corresponds this what you think or say - or perhaps this what the most of all US-Americans think and say - with any reality in this universe any longer? "The democracy" degenerated under Donald Trump and supported old male autocrats all over this planet and/or the children of this autocrats in the xth generation. This helps many nations to justify the violent nonsense they are doing.



Trump who?


----------



## Concerned American (Aug 1, 2021)

MisterBeale said:


> I read an interesting Article tonight.  As I am reading it, I was thinking of this video;
> 
> 
> In this video, the global oligarchs explicitly tell us, the U.S. will not be the world's sole power. . . to this end, it will mean destroying the US as the holder of the world's reserve currency.
> ...


As I see it, that country has been under seige by one group or another through millenia.  In modern days, Iran has take a shot at it, they bankrupted the USSR, The US is bankrupt and now it is China's turn to bankrupt their country.  Dollars to Donuts, the Afghans will do it too.


----------



## Kondor3 (Aug 1, 2021)

Fools said that Korea would signal the end of American superpower status... they were wrong.

Fools said that Vietnam would signal the end of American superpower status... they were wrong.

Fools said that Afghanistan would signal the end of American superpower status... they are wrong.


----------



## Turtlesoup (Aug 1, 2021)

MisterBeale said:


> I read an interesting Article tonight.  As I am reading it, I was thinking of this video;
> 
> 
> In this video, the global oligarchs explicitly tell us, the U.S. will not be the world's sole power. . . to this end, it will mean destroying the US as the holder of the world's reserve currency.
> ...


They are making the US $$ worthless through spending and debt now---soon to be replaced with a new n american euro type money but with the Chine cyber money the world currency is what I think they hope for.


----------



## Burgermeister (Aug 1, 2021)

Get the fuck out of Afghanistan ASAP. If Biden does it, fantastic. We don't need one more of our kids dying over there. Any bullshit reason offered is just residue of previous faulty engagement. Are there any members here with kids over there? If so, let us know:
Why?
What is the military strategy, when do we win?
If you have a kid over there, I bet you are ridiculously frustrated that you do no know the answers.


----------



## zaangalewa (Aug 2, 2021)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> What does love have to do with pregnancy?



Normally everything.



Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Ever take biology?



What kind of question is this? What do you address with this question?

Compared with Afghanistan: Where's the baby?


----------



## Mindful (Aug 2, 2021)

zaangalewa said:


> Is this now an insult or not?



Why would it be?


----------



## zaangalewa (Aug 2, 2021)

there4eyeM said:


> Many German women had babies in 1946 as a result of insemination by Russians, but it had nothing to do with love.



Hundreds of thousands of German women did do suicide and how many babies were aborted I don't know.  And this had also nothing to do with love. And let me say to you a very serios word: As well the Russians, your nation the USA and many other allies had earned to be wiped from this planet for the evil crimes they had done. That assholes like you are proud  on shameful deeds, which they on their own never had done, this I will never understand.


----------



## zaangalewa (Aug 2, 2021)

Mindful said:


> Why would it be?


For me it's not a big problem to be an American - for an US-American like you this is a much bigger problem. Wall and wall are two different words.


----------



## there4eyeM (Aug 2, 2021)

zaangalewa said:


> Hundreds of thousands of German women did do suicide and how many babies were aborted I don't know.  And this had also nothing to do with love. And let me say to you a very serios word: As well the Russians, your nation the USA and many other allies had earned to be wiped from this planet for the evil crimes they had done. That assholes like you are proud  on shameful deeds, which they on their own never had done, this I will never understand.


Your ridiculous projection has been noted. Nothing said by me indicates pride in anything at all and certainly not in any country. You have no idea what country I am from or even what country I am in. Calling people whom you do not know at all "assholes" is probably the best qualification for being one. Now, buzz off and forget about ever hearing from me again.


----------



## Mindful (Aug 2, 2021)

zaangalewa said:


> for an US-American like you



And you know this... how?

Or  is it one of your click baits?


----------



## zaangalewa (Aug 2, 2021)

Kondor3 said:


> Fools said that Korea would signal the end of American superpower status... they were wrong.



This never said anyone as far as I know. The question in this case had been whether the USA goes in isolation and let the Soviet systems rule the rest of the world.



Kondor3 said:


> Fools said that Vietnam would signal the end of American superpower status... they were wrong.



"Vietnam" was one of the greatest victories any nation ever had won in the world. You stopped this war when it became more and more clear that this war made not any sense any longer, because it was impossible to free self made dead people. By the way: Still today kill your dioxines people in Vietnam and cause malformations.



Kondor3 said:


> Fools said that Afghanistan would signal the end of American superpower status... they are wrong.



But if it was not this - whatelse was it?


----------



## zaangalewa (Aug 2, 2021)

Mindful said:


> And you know this... how?



Do you know how Germans speak about other nations? In case you ask as a German others about any nation in the world then you will after a short time hear from someone who has to tell something what's astonishing or wonderful about this nation. And the less "civilized" a nation is the more we admire it. We like 'simplicity'.



Mindful said:


> Or  is it one of your click baits?



This is an intuition. If I am wrong and you will be able to live in better or best harmony and friendship with Americans, US-American, then the Great Spirit might bless you.


----------



## ESay (Aug 2, 2021)

Mad_Jack_Flint said:


> The European need for Natural Gas is their issue that seem to be Russian Checkmate piece in this whole game.
> 
> See when the U.S. invaded Afghanistan and Iraq they had a grand plan of getting Iran to attack and allow the U.S. to go to war with Iran and for what purpose?
> 
> ...


Oh, Iran, that is a very interesting question. I can't say much about the desires to get Iran involved into a regional war. I think that the odds weren't too high in that. You can call the Iranians everything you want, but certainly they aren't stupid.

But there certainly were attempts to bring Iran back into diplomatic and economic relations. And these attempts resulted into the nuclear deal. I know that this deal is highly controversial. But I supported it. This deal could strengthen so called reformators in Iran and bring Iran to international market of oil and gas supplies. It may well be that we wouldnt have now Russia dictating gas prices in Europe (which are now at historical high levels) and the current oil prices.

But the things went in a different direction. Now we have a conservative as the president there who will most likely be the next ayatollah. The Russians have strengthened their hold in Syria. The things have become much more complicated.


----------



## zaangalewa (Aug 2, 2021)

there4eyeM said:


> Your ridiculous projection has been noted. Nothing said by me indicates pride in anything at all and certainly not in any country. You have no idea what country I am from or even what country I am in. Calling people whom you do not know at all "assholes" is probably the best qualification for being one. Now, buzz off and forget about ever hearing from me again.



You are right. Asshole would be a much too honorful title for you.


----------



## Mindful (Aug 2, 2021)

zaangalewa said:


> We like 'simplicity'.



Complications more like.


----------



## TheParser (Aug 2, 2021)

If the United States really wants to teach China a lesson, pass the leadership  of world dominance over to the latter.

See how China enjoys spending billions and losing its soldiers to hopeless causes.

Hear China is planning to fill the vacuum in Afghanistan.  Couldn't happen to a more deserving benefactor!


----------



## zaangalewa (Aug 2, 2021)

Mindful said:


> Complications more like.



_Everything must be made as simple as possible. But not simpler._
*Albert Einstein*


----------



## zaangalewa (Aug 2, 2021)

TheParser said:


> If the United States really wants to teach China a lesson, pass the leadership  of world dominance over to the latter.
> 
> See how China enjoys spending billions and losing its soldiers to hopeless causes.



Where is China using soldiers?



TheParser said:


> Hear China is planning to fill the vacuum in Afghanistan.  Couldn't happen to a more deserving benefactor!



China likes to filI on what reason which vacuum with what in Afghanistan?

And which country of the world is able to speak - before this will happen what seems to happen - with China about her real intentions and plans in this context? The USA after Donald Trump? Europe after the Brexit? Russia under Putin? The UNO, the abandoned child from and of the nations of the world? ...


----------



## Flash (Aug 2, 2021)

The American "War" in Afghanistan should have been over in a few months in 2002 when we had Bin Ladin cornered at Tora Bora.

However,  The Secretary of Defense did not release 900 Rangers to go after him because he didn't think there was enough evidence.

Wham, Bam Thank You Ma'am it could have been over then with the capture of killing of the sonofabitch that orchestrated the 911 attack.  But it wasn't.


----------



## TheParser (Aug 2, 2021)

zaangalewa said:


> Where is China using soldiers?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, China is daily threatening to use soldiers (and aircraft and submarines and ...) to conquer Taiwan.

And Chinese soldiers are suppressing the Tibetans.

A lot of people are hoping that China does stick its nose in Afghanistan. It will be fun to see the Taliban chase the Chinese out of that country.

You seem to support China. That's fine. That is your right.

To many people, however, China is a very, very, very bad country run by Emperor Xi.


----------



## MisterBeale (Aug 2, 2021)

gipper said:


> You clearly missed the point being made.





gipper said:


> Great column by Hedges, as usual.
> 
> Once we lose reserve currency it’s all over. With a demented neocon in the WH, I fear the lose will be sooner rather than later. The consequences won’t be pretty. Few Americans have any understanding of what’s likely to happen, even though history is full of dying empires.





Mad_Jack_Flint said:


> High inflation.
> 
> States leaving the Union.
> 
> ...



IMO?  I believe the majority of the posts in this thread have missed the point of this thread, or we are so old, and have lived the majority of our lives in a paradigm of the US being so economically, and militarily powerful, it is beyond our imagination to conceive of how the interlocking directorate and the military-industrial-establishment, completely unresponsive to the will of the voters, regardless of which party is in power, continues to do what it is going to do, for profit and power, regardless of what is in the best interest of the nation.

Folks just don't really care anymore.

And?  IMO?  They don't use much critical thought when the elite journalist corporate media, which are their cheerleaders, produce propaganda to support their corruption.  It is a good thing they keep the collateral damage down and the casualty rates low.  Where have all the war protests been?

Back during Korea and Vietnam, we knew who was funding the opposing forces, the media and investigative reporters dug into that, and told the public.  But the Taliban?  How often do you hear stories about how they get their funding and their arms and equipment?  Anyone that plays war simulations will tell you, a war or insurgency is fought on supply, food, weapons, etc.  The American revolution constantly was short on clothing, equipment, food, ammunition, artillery, ect.  Yet?  Hardly any reports are produced about how this insurgency fights the most well equipped fighting force on the planet. . . and defeats it?  Maybe those reports are hard to come by with "embedded reporters?"  

Was this war ever even meant to be won?   

Or was it really meant to be the doom of America?

Or is it a portent of something even more dire?









						Alexander Fraser Tytler, Lord Woodhouselee - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## MisterBeale (Aug 2, 2021)

Flash said:


> The American "War" in Afghanistan should have been over in a few months in 2002 when we had Bin Ladin cornered at Tora Bora.
> 
> However,  The Secretary of Defense did not release 900 Rangers to go after him because he didn't think there was enough evidence.
> 
> Wham, Bam Thank You Ma'am it could have been over then with the capture of killing of the sonofabitch that orchestrated the 911 attack.  But it wasn't.


That sounds suspect.

Why even go there at all then?


----------



## whitehall (Aug 2, 2021)

How could it be a loss when we never intended to win it? We had more combat deaths in Chicago than Afghanistan. Let's call it a strategic withdrawal if it doesn't get too messy.


----------



## Correll (Aug 2, 2021)

zaangalewa said:


> Sure. That's why your the cold war strategy had been to waste Germany with with nukes to stop an attacking Soviet army. And that's why you spie everywhere in Germany. ... Hmmm ... Why we let you spy is another question ...




The period of the Cold War when I was here, the strategy was to stop or deter Soviet invasion with a strong conventional force. Hence all the M-1s Reagan bought. 

That was an impressive tank and we bought a lot of them, very expensive. 

I, for one, am very glad that invasion never happened. THe Cold War was a dark time, but we go though it. 


Our leadership was far from perfect, Lord Knows, But hey, we are all here today. So, that's a Win. 


We could not have done it without you. Thanks for your help. 







zaangalewa said:


> I do not even have an idea who could be a leader of Germany. In generla we hate the expression "leader" = "Führer" on historical reasons.



Don't care. My point stands. YOur beef is with your leaders. I agree with you on this issue. We should not be military allies any more. And America should spend less on the military. 





zaangalewa said:


> Who said I am unhappy?



YOu do. With your constant complaining. 




zaangalewa said:


> Sure, "ally".



Yes. I want US to leave. YOu seem to want that too. Why the weird attitude? Are you in pain because we agree?





zaangalewa said:


> Which US-American "foreign" policy? You are stupid idiots - as stupid idiots as we are in our own. The question is perhaps who's the bigger idiot.



What was Germany's position on NATO expansion?


----------



## MisterBeale (Aug 2, 2021)

Mad_Jack_Flint said:


> The European need for Natural Gas is their issue that seem to be Russian Checkmate piece in this whole game.
> 
> See when the U.S. invaded Afghanistan and Iraq they had a grand plan of getting Iran to attack and allow the U.S. to go to war with Iran and for what purpose?
> 
> ...


You know, I thought maybe it was just Afghanistan, but when I checked the CFR site. . . which?  Let's be honest, they are the ones that really run things, I did a search for the bases in the area, and they are shutting them all down.

I don't know if it has to do with the Silk Road initiative, or if we are just running out of money and power. . . but it probably also has to do with a shift out of the US trying to control hydrocarbons and focusing on "green energy?"











						ASIA: U.S. Military Bases in Central Asia
					

More on:            United States                Defense and Security      This publication is now archived.What is the status of the U.S. military bases in Central Asia?The United States maintains…




					www.cfr.org
				




Yup, closed.









						Transit Center at Manas - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Donald H (Aug 2, 2021)

Mad_Jack_Flint said:


> As for leaving countries like Afghanistan, well let China pay the price like we did and like the Soviet Union did because if they for one moment believe they can take that region, well they will learn quick they can not and will lose trillions of dollars.


China is in Afghanistan already and by invitation.

America can watch to see how it's done. The only price China will pay in Afghanistan is on dealing in free and fair trade relations.


----------



## gipper (Aug 2, 2021)

MisterBeale said:


> IMO?  I believe the majority of the posts in this thread have missed the point of this thread, or we are so old, and have lived the majority of our lives in a paradigm of the US being so economically, and militarily powerful, it is beyond our imagination to conceive of how the interlocking directorate and the military-industrial-establishment, completely unresponsive to the will of the voters, regardless of which party is in power, continues to do what it is going to do, for profit and power, regardless of what is in the best interest of the nation.
> 
> Folks just don't really care anymore.
> 
> ...


It is most unfortunate that many Americans don’t care about their government’s imperialist actions. Many don’t even agree with the statement, the US is an imperialist warrior nation. Yet it is transparently evident. We are sowing the seeds of our own demise.


----------



## Donald H (Aug 2, 2021)

There's still a great deal of danger with the US starting a war with Iran. 
America is working on the demonization pretense in cooperation with the evil Zionist regime.

It's not going to be easy for the US anymore with China winning over the world by peaceful means. And there's also the fact that China and Russia have interests to protect in Iran now too.


----------



## MisterBeale (Aug 2, 2021)

gipper said:


> It is most unfortunate that many Americans don’t care about their government’s imperialist actions. Many don’t even agree with the statement, the US is an imperialist warrior nation. Yet it is transparently evident. We are sowing the seeds of our own demise.


----------



## zaangalewa (Aug 2, 2021)

TheParser said:


> Well, China is daily threatening to use soldiers (and aircraft and submarines and ...) to conquer Taiwan.



Who says Chinese have not the same right to be idiots as all others? If they will attack Taiwan this will be a heavy crime.



TheParser said:


> And Chinese soldiers are suppressing the Tibetans.



I know. But the Chinese will lose this invisible war. The Han will never be happy in Tibet. The Tibetans will.



TheParser said:


> A lot of people are hoping that China does stick its nose in Afghanistan.



Do they - whoever they are?



TheParser said:


> It will be fun to see the Taliban chase the Chinese out of that country.



Hmmm - If I remember the very old methods of the Chinese empire then they will just simple buy the victory and as well the Afghans and the Chinese will be happy - or will try to be happy in this special case. But I don't think they will do something in this direction at all. This makes not any sense for them. The cultural gap would be too big.



TheParser said:


> You seem to support China.



I do not support the idiocies of the USA first to make the Chinese great again and afterwards to try to make them little. Make yourselve greater again.



TheParser said:


> That's fine. That is your right.



I will never understand why US-Americans never let it be to show somewhere that they are idiots. Why are you using the people of your culture continously this stupid form. Jesus Christ said by the way in Marcus 9,40: _"For the one who is not against us is for us."_



TheParser said:


> To many people, however, China is a very, very, very bad country run by Emperor Xi.



China is a country with nukes and intercontinental rockets - same is Russia. All the nonsense which US-Americans say about their lack of power up to the super superpower which is the USA is tiring. First the western world brought their full industrial knowledge on the own free will to China - so they are able to produce cheap everything what the whole mankind needs. After you and we did do so now you like to waste this country. I love it to say sometimes: _"Let us make a roof over the USA and finished is the greatest psychiatric hospital of the world". _But how to make this roof without the help of China and their scaffolds out of bamboo for skyscrapers?


----------



## MisterBeale (Aug 2, 2021)

Biden Is Not Ending The Forever Wars​








						Biden Is Not Ending The Forever Wars
					

MSM paints Biden as some sort of anti-war President, however, there is no evidence for what they are actually asserting.




					www.thelastamericanvagabond.com
				




Biden’s Foreign Policy Failures​








						Biden's Foreign Policy Failures - Antiwar.com Original
					

Joe Biden’s foreign policy record as president in his first six months has been as bad as his non-interventionist and antiwar critics feared it would be. - Daniel Larison for Antiwar.com Original




					original.antiwar.com


----------



## gipper (Aug 2, 2021)

MisterBeale said:


> Biden Is Not Ending The Forever Wars​
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Biden worse the Don, but wingers don’t see it.


----------



## MisterBeale (Aug 2, 2021)

gipper said:


> Biden worse the Don, but wingers don’t see it.


I am getting to the point, where I'm of the opinion that it almost seems like there are forces behind the scenes that play these narratives off of each other.

Could Biden be worse than Don if there were no Don?  Could Trump be so awful, if there were no Hillary?

The whole thing is starting to look like a staged nightmare.

Like the folks behind this mess, and behind what is going on in other nations, are creating managed chaos, directing the world, in such a way, as to create more desire for global institutions and global government, rather than less control and more desire for local control.

I mean, just look at this thread.  It is supposed to be how the bureaucracy has not acted in the interest of the American Public, our leaders don't give a shit, and no one will be held accountable.  Yet, instead, it has devolved into a pissing match about different nation's desires, and who did what to whom, and whose interests are best served by what.  And the fact is, multi-national billionaires, international banking interests, and global oligarchs discuss all these issues, and probably have already divided up that pie a long time ago, and now they have only to decide how to get their respective populations to hate one another so they can justify their budgets and have a bogey man to distract their own populations from their own corruption.


When we have that knee jerk desire to compare one side to that other, I don't think it helps, it plays into the hands of those that are manipulating us.

Fuck them all.


----------



## gipper (Aug 2, 2021)

MisterBeale said:


> I am getting to the point, where I'm of the opinion that it almost seems like there are forces behind the scenes that play these narratives off of each other.
> 
> Could Biden be worse than Don if there were no Don?  Could Trump be so awful, if there were no Hillary?
> 
> ...


Agreed. The politicians of both parties are all pretty much the same. They all do the bidding of the oligarchs and big corporations, but could care less about the people. This to me is apparent, but so many Americans are bogged down in the quagmire of the two criminal gangs they can’t see it. Arguing over meaningless shit, while the oligarchs further enrich and empower themselves.

If there were some way to push forward a third party that addressed the will of the people, things might change. I’m skeptical that can ever occur.


----------



## ESay (Aug 2, 2021)

MisterBeale said:


> IMO?  I believe the majority of the posts in this thread have missed the point of this thread, or we are so old, and have lived the majority of our lives in a paradigm of the US being so economically, and militarily powerful, it is beyond our imagination to conceive of how the interlocking directorate and the military-industrial-establishment, completely unresponsive to the will of the voters, regardless of which party is in power, continues to do what it is going to do, for profit and power, regardless of what is in the best interest of the nation.
> 
> Folks just don't really care anymore.
> 
> ...


What are you complaining for? That things have become too complicated that you don't get who finance the Taliban, as an example?

Or that the US have lost its role as a single superpower (it needs to say that this role existed only for 30 years after the Soviets' break up).

Or that politicians put their own interests above the country's ones and the media cover the things up? (It would be quite pathetic to claim it hadn't been the case since the dawn of civilization).


----------



## FA_Q2 (Aug 3, 2021)

gipper said:


> Great column by Hedges, as usual.
> 
> Once we lose reserve currency it’s all over. With a demented neocon in the WH, I fear the lose will be sooner rather than later. The consequences won’t be pretty. Few Americans have any understanding of what’s likely to happen, even though history is full of dying empires.


Well, sure if that happens but if it does it will have literally nothing to do with the Afghanistan war.

Your thread title is just silly.  If it said "America losing the world's reserve currency is the end of America and the world's super power" I would agree.  As of this point, there is little chance of that as well because there is nothing else to go to and we wield a crap ton of economic power.  Our military might is not the main reason we are the worlds superpower, our economic power is.  That it translates to military power is just a given.

The idea we lost in Afghanistan is also a rather specious concept in general.  We lost there because we have no actual goal - 'losing' has been a forgone conclusion for the past 10 years.  It is definitionally impossible to win when you do not have a win condition.  Afghanistan also did not 'win' anything, they are dirt poor, far more so than before we got there and they were dirt poor then as well, and have gained absolutely nothing.  There is no nation on earth that would want to be in Afghanistan's shoes in relation to the US.


----------



## zaangalewa (Aug 3, 2021)

Correll said:


> The period of the Cold War when I was here, the strategy was to stop or deter Soviet invasion with a strong conventional force. Hence all the M-1s Reagan bought.
> 
> That was an impressive tank and we bought a lot of them, very expensive.
> 
> ...



Did I ever say so?



Correll said:


> And America should spend less on the military.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No idea. I fear no German has any idea any longer what our army is doing - what's by the way an effect of the NATO and the "will of the USA" that Germany has to "overtake responsibility". So we reduced our army by throwing out stupid unprofessional draftees and replaced them with professional stupids.

Meanwhile we defended for 20 years Germany against the attacking Afghan hordes with our submarine and a German defense comedian minister made the unforgotten joke "Germany has to be defended in the Hindu Kush!" - a sentence from advertising strategists, which would had sounded much more interesting if an Austrian German with the Scandinavian forename "Adolf" had used it. So everyone had only to laugh - what not had been the intention of this joke.

But now our soldiers had won - whatever they had won - because they came back after 3 month ... ah sorry: 20 years. And now come Afghan hordes (and Syrian hordes and other hordes) over Belarus - sent from the the smiling dictator with the name Lukashenko and his everlasting joke_ "I cut off the hands of everyone who not votes for me"._

More I'm not able to tell now, because there is always the danger to find somewhere a rest of the joke, which made the Brits to the winners of world war 1+2 and the losers of their empire.


PS: Germans - use earplugs to listen!


----------



## zaangalewa (Aug 3, 2021)

Mad_Jack_Flint said:


> Some Germans but after the Second Great War and the invasion of East Germany that lasted for decades and caused a wall my gut tell me not all of Germany would agree.
> 
> As for German and Russian love and Catherine the Great, well yes she was Prussian but actually if I remember correctly she was born in Poland with more of Swedish lineage than German but she was also related to the Germans also. ...



Her father was an Ascanian (high nobility from the Saxons) - her mother was a sister from the Swedish king. As far as I can see were all her ancestors from her mother's side Swedes, Danes or Germans. With Poland she had nothing to do. Stettin was conquered from the allies in world war 2 and given as a present from the allies to Poland. The Germans there were murdered or displaced and some system relevant Germans were forced to stay there, to become Polish and forced to work for the Polish Soviets. The Poles which live today there came after world war 2 to Stettin.


----------



## surada (Aug 3, 2021)

MisterBeale said:


> I read an interesting Article tonight.  As I am reading it, I was thinking of this video;
> 
> 
> In this video, the global oligarchs explicitly tell us, the U.S. will not be the world's sole power. . . to this end, it will mean destroying the US as the holder of the world's reserve currency.
> ...



American Empire? We went into Afghanistan to try and save ENRON and their white elephant project in Dabhol.


----------



## MinTrut (Aug 3, 2021)

MisterBeale said:


> I read an interesting Article tonight.  As I am reading it, I was thinking of this video;
> 
> 
> In this video, the global oligarchs explicitly tell us, the U.S. will not be the world's sole power. . . to this end, it will mean destroying the US as the holder of the world's reserve currency.
> ...


The mass eviction crisis now unfolding will also serve to accelerate this collapse...


----------



## zaangalewa (Aug 3, 2021)

MisterBeale said:


> ...



Empty phrase. Quote: «Die Form unseres Regiments ist democratisch» (=The form of our government is democratic)  Switzerland, 1618. Democracy is much older there - but this sentence is about 2*200 years old and still exists democracy there and no one doubts that Switzerland will be forever a democratic country.

_Welten vergehen, stellt man sich denen, die sie vergehen lassen wollen, nicht früh und entschieden in den Weg._ 
*Saša Stanišić*


----------



## Correll (Aug 3, 2021)

zaangalewa said:


> Did I ever say so?




If that was not your intent, then you did it wrong.




zaangalewa said:


> No idea. I fear no German has any idea any longer what our army is doing -




The Military would have no say in the German Position on nato expansion. And that is the question as to whether or not your leadership was stupid or not. NATO expansion was stupid. Especially as your nation increases trade with Russia.


----------



## rightwinger (Aug 3, 2021)

We never should have taken over the country in the first place

That was our loss


----------



## Correll (Aug 3, 2021)

rightwinger said:


> We never should have taken over the country in the first place
> 
> That was our loss




Our options were limited when they would not hand over Osama bin Laden.


The mistake was when we tried to nation build. We should have just put some local strong man in charge of Kabul, declared him "President" or more aptly "King" and a pile of money and weapons, and left.


----------



## JWBooth (Aug 3, 2021)

Correll said:


> Our options were limited when they would not hand over Osama bin Laden.
> 
> 
> The mistake was when we tried to nation build. We should have just put some local strong man in charge of Kabul, declared him "President" or more aptly "King" and a pile of money and weapons, and left.


Very early on the Taliban offered up Bin Ladin on a silver platter and the shrub refused it.


----------



## Correll (Aug 3, 2021)

JWBooth said:


> Very early on the Taliban offered up Bin Ladin on a silver platter and the shrub refused it.




No, they didn't.


----------



## JWBooth (Aug 3, 2021)

Correll said:


> No, they didn't.


Yep, Oct. 2001


----------



## MisterBeale (Aug 3, 2021)

Correll said:


> No, they didn't.


Yeah, actually they did.

All they wanted, was some proof that he actually did they deed. . . not circumstantial proof of the sort that the Trump supporters have of election interference, but concrete proof.  It's one thing for UN-elected bureaucrats to make a claim for policy directives, it is an entirely different thing for them to back it up with proof.  The bureaucracies do, and often times have, lied to achieve their policy directives.


I wonder if you know the difference?  Or if you just believe every bit of government and corporate propaganda the shovel into your noggin?

When there were guerrilla attacks against military targets, OBL admitted he was involved.  Yet with 9/11?  He denied all involvement.

SO?  The Taliban leaders wanted just SOMETHING, not suspicions or crap that intel. agencies could set up any patsy to take a fall for.

They knew he OBL was, and knew that it wasn't the type of thing he would do.

They also had an extensive history of working with America's intel agencies going back to the Soviet era.


You really have no idea of what you are talking about.


----------



## MisterBeale (Aug 3, 2021)

ESay said:


> What are you complaining for? That things have become too complicated that you don't get who finance the Taliban, as an example?
> 
> Or that the US have lost its role as a single superpower (it needs to say that this role existed only for 30 years after the Soviets' break up).
> 
> Or that politicians put their own interests above the country's ones and the media cover the things up? (It would be quite pathetic to claim it hadn't been the case since the dawn of civilization).


I a lot of folks became wealthy off of the Afgan policy, and it weakened the US economy and society.

No one will be held to account.

Did you miss post #109?


----------



## MisterBeale (Aug 3, 2021)

surada said:


> American Empire? We went into Afghanistan to try and save ENRON and their white elephant project in Dabhol.


Those are some interesting accusations.

I am not saying you are wrong, and many big events often have multiple stake holders supporting the action.  I would be interested in a link to a investigative report on such information if you have it.


----------



## surada (Aug 3, 2021)

MisterBeale said:


> Those are some interesting accusations.
> 
> I am not saying you are wrong, and many big events often have multiple stake holders supporting the action.  I would be interested in a link to a investigative report on such information if you have it.



Juan Cole has the best in depth report on Enron and what happened.

First thing you have to know is that Bush jr didn't know anything about the oil/gas business. He may have been coking and and drinking when he busted Arbusto..



			Enron and 9-11:  Connecting the Dots – Brutal Proof


----------



## MisterBeale (Aug 3, 2021)

MinTrut said:


> The mass eviction crisis now unfolding will also serve to accelerate this collapse...


I find it very interesting that the world's largest multinational investment management corporations are buying up all the real-estate at higher than market value, and we have more empty units than we have homeless folks in America.


There is definitely something weird going on. . . it almost seems like a conspiracy against the masses in the States.

This is something that I have a hard time finding news on in the controlled press.  There was a story about in FT and Bloomberg, but both are pay-walled.

You need this context, to understand the economically dirigisme (which is the economic model of fascism.)  Right before the "pandemic," the world's economy was headed in the crapper, and the federal government made some deals with Blackrock.









						There Is More to BlackRock Than You Might Imagine - LewRockwell
					

A virtually unregulated investment firm today exercises more political and financial influence than the Federal Reserve and most governments on this planet. The firm, BlackRock Inc., the world’s largest asset manager, invests a staggering $9 trillion in client funds worldwide, a sum more than...




					www.lewrockwell.com
				












						BlackRock Authored the Federal Reserve's Bailout Plan Before There Was a Crisis
					

The Fed plans to leverage the $454 billion from the COVID-19 stimulus program, the CARES Act, into a $4.54 trillion bailout plan.



					needtoknow.news
				




And now?  The establishment press is trying to convince folks that this investment corp. is not the problem behind the housing crises.









						BlackRock Is Not Ruining the U.S. Housing Market
					

The real villain isn’t a faceless Wall Street Goliath; it’s your neighbors and local governments stopping the construction of new units.




					www.theatlantic.com
				




When ever independent analysis tells us they are causing homelessness and the end of the American dream.









						Blackrock is buying up US homes like no tomorrow - Strange Sounds
					

Did you know that Blackrock is currently buying up US homes like no tomorrow? Here are the reasons why... People and societal control...




					strangesounds.org
				








__





						BlackRock Buying Up Residential America. – Civilian Intelligence Network 3.0
					






					civilianintelligencenetwork.ca
				












						Corporations Like Blackrock Are Buying Up Thousands of Houses, Pricing Americans Out of the Market - DailyVeracity
					

According to a recent report from the Wall Street Journal, roughly 200 investment firms are buying tens of…



					www.dailyveracity.com


----------



## MisterBeale (Aug 3, 2021)

surada said:


> Juan Cole has the best in depth report on Enron and what happened.
> 
> First thing you have to know is that Bush jr didn't know anything about the oil/gas business. He may have been coking and and drinking when he busted Arbusto..
> 
> ...


Thanks, I will have a look into it.


----------



## surada (Aug 3, 2021)

MisterBeale said:


> Thanks, I will have a look into it.





			https://www.coursehero.com/file/8280528/The-Afghanistan-Enron-connection-corrected/


----------



## surada (Aug 3, 2021)

MisterBeale 

Take a look at Pepe Escobar too. He works hard. No soundbites.

Pipelineistan, Part 2: The games nations play, 1/26/02


			Pipelineistan, Part 2: The games nations play, 1/26/02
		

By Pepe Escobar January 26, 2002 Asia Times Online. ... Crook-infested Enron -- the biggest donor to the Bush campaign of 2000 -- was ubiquitious: it conducted the feasibility study for the $2.5 billion trans-Caspian pipeline being built under a joint venture signed almost three years ago between Turkmenistan and Bechtel and General Electric ...


----------



## LaDairis (Aug 3, 2021)

MisterBeale said:


> I read an interesting Article tonight.  As I am reading it, I was thinking of this video;
> 
> 
> In this video, the global oligarchs explicitly tell us, the U.S. will not be the world's sole power. . . to this end, it will mean destroying the US as the holder of the world's reserve currency.
> ...






Israel wants Taliban in power.  Israel did not want Northern Alliance to beat Taliban, which is why Traitor W flipped off Northern Alliance with Axis of Evil, as Northern Alliance was armed and funded by IRAN.

This is terror war logic.   Iran is bad bad bad, Taliban is bad bad bad, but if Iran is fighting taliban and arming Taliban's enemy, Iran is bad because ISRAEL WANTS TALIBAN TO WIN.


----------



## Rigby5 (Aug 3, 2021)

Everyone looks at any situation according to what they want out of it.
But that is wrong.
What matters only is law, not what you want.
And the Taliban did nothing illegal, so it was criminal for the US to attack them.


----------



## surada (Aug 3, 2021)

LaDairis said:


> Israel wants Taliban in power.  Israel did not want Northern Alliance to beat Taliban, which is why Traitor W flipped off Northern Alliance with Axis of Evil, as Northern Alliance was armed and funded by IRAN.
> 
> This is terror war logic.   Iran is bad bad bad, Taliban is bad bad bad, but if Iran is fighting taliban and arming Taliban's enemy, Iran is bad because ISRAEL WANTS TALIBAN TO WIN.



Nope.

Pipelineistan, Part 2: The games nations play, 1/26/02


			Pipelineistan, Part 2: The games nations play, 1/26/02
		

By Pepe Escobar January 26, 2002 Asia Times Online. ... Crook-infested Enron -- the biggest donor to the Bush campaign of 2000 -- was ubiquitious: it conducted the feasibility study for the $2.5 billion trans-Caspian pipeline being built under a joint venture signed almost three years ago between Turkmenistan and Bechtel and General Electric ...


----------



## MisterBeale (Aug 3, 2021)

surada said:


> https://www.coursehero.com/file/8280528/The-Afghanistan-Enron-connection-corrected/




". . . A 2002 follow-up report from the DoD Inspector General on the missing trillions noted that a further $1.1 trillion in made up accounting entries were processed by the Pentagon in fiscal year 2000, but they did not even attempt to quantify the missing funds for 2001. The Secretary of the Army, Thomas White, later explained they were unable to produce a financial report for 2001 at all due to “the loss of financial-management personnel sustained during the Sept. 11 terrorist attack.”

Before becoming Secretary of the Army, Thomas White was a senior executive at Enron. Enron was one of the largest energy companies in the world, posting a $111 billion profit in 2000 before being exposed as an elaborate corporate accounting fraud in 2001. The SEC, which investigated the Enron scandal, occupied the 11th to 13th floors in World Trade Center Building 7, and their offices were destroyed on 9/11, destroying 3,000 to 4,000 documents on active investigations in the process.

Perhaps unsurprisingly, Rumsfeld’s War on the Pentagon’s Bureaucracy did not yield the results he promised. By 2013, the unaccountable money in the Pentagon’s coffers had reach $8.5 trillion.. . . "








						Episode 308 - 9/11 Trillions: Follow The Money - The Corbett Report
					

https://www.corbettreport.com/mp3/episode308-lq.mp3Forget for one moment everything you've been told about September 11, 2001. 9/11 was a crime. And as with any crime, there is one overriding imperative that detectives must follow to identify the perpetrators: Follow the money. This is an...




					www.corbettreport.com


----------



## surada (Aug 3, 2021)

surada said:


> Nope.
> 
> Pipelineistan, Part 2: The games nations play, 1/26/02
> 
> ...



I get Juan Cole and Pepe Escobar mixed up  all the time but both do good, in depth work. So does the Atlantic if you want more than soundbites.

Best regards.

Surada


----------



## MisterBeale (Aug 3, 2021)

The Atlantic is CFR propaganda.  I wouldn't trust them if you waterboarded me.


----------



## bendog (Aug 3, 2021)

MisterBeale said:


> I read an interesting Article tonight.  As I am reading it, I was thinking of this video;
> 
> 
> In this video, the global oligarchs explicitly tell us, the U.S. will not be the world's sole power. . . to this end, it will mean destroying the US as the holder of the world's reserve currency.
> ...


Bad ideas don't improve with age.  I'm just glad we FINALLY got a potus who ended it.  Fucking bastards


----------



## bendog (Aug 3, 2021)

And God Bless our allies.









						Coalition casualties in Afghanistan - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## MinTrut (Aug 3, 2021)

MisterBeale said:


> I find it very interesting that the world's largest multinational investment management corporations are buying up all the real-estate at higher than market value, and we have more empty units than we have homeless folks in America.
> 
> 
> There is definitely something weird going on. . . it almost seems like a conspiracy against the masses in the States.
> ...


My only concern is whether Blackrock & etc. can put enough robot Rottweilers in place to protect their investment from rioting tenants, and whether the robots can kill enough rioters to protect their investment.

"Property over people!" I always say!


----------



## Flopper (Aug 3, 2021)

MisterBeale said:


> I read an interesting Article tonight.  As I am reading it, I was thinking of this video;
> 
> 
> In this video, the global oligarchs explicitly tell us, the U.S. will not be the world's sole power. . . to this end, it will mean destroying the US as the holder of the world's reserve currency.
> ...


I disagree.
*By definition, a Superpower is, a state that possesses military or economic might, or both, and general influence vastly superior to that of other states.  The United States, Russia, and China are the top 3 military powers in world today as they have been for about 50 years and that is not likely change.  

In regard to military power it is not using that power that makes a country a superpower but possessing's that power. China has not been involved in a war in over 40 years.  Unlike China both the US and Russia fight wars seeking limited objectives with varying degrees of success.*


----------



## MisterBeale (Aug 3, 2021)

bendog said:


> Bad ideas don't improve with age.  I'm just glad we FINALLY got a potus who ended it.  Fucking bastards


I guess you missed post #119.

Here, I'll post it again since you are so in love with establishment propaganda.





Biden Is Not Ending The Forever Wars​








						Biden Is Not Ending The Forever Wars
					

MSM paints Biden as some sort of anti-war President, however, there is no evidence for what they are actually asserting.




					www.thelastamericanvagabond.com
				




Biden’s Foreign Policy Failures​








						Biden's Foreign Policy Failures - Antiwar.com Original
					

Joe Biden’s foreign policy record as president in his first six months has been as bad as his non-interventionist and antiwar critics feared it would be. - Daniel Larison for Antiwar.com Original




					original.antiwar.com


----------



## Correll (Aug 3, 2021)

MisterBeale said:


> Yeah, actually they did.
> 
> All they wanted, was some proof that he actually did they deed. . . not circumstantial proof of the sort that the Trump supporters have of election interference, but concrete proof.  It's one thing for UN-elected bureaucrats to make a claim for policy directives, it is an entirely different thing for them to back it up with proof.  The bureaucracies do, and often times have, lied to achieve their policy directives.
> 
> ...




So, they did not offer to turn over Bin Liden.  They offered to accept evidence we gave them, then they would review it, get back to US, and let US know if they found it convincing enough to turn him over, or maybe they would ask for more evidence, or maybe they would suggest a different court, or...


Or, maybe if some fucktard turd world shithole is fucking stupid enough to host a terrorist group and that group commits mass fucking murder against America, 


when America comes knocking, don't fuck around. 


THey played stupid games and won a stupid prize. 

That you take their side in this, makes sense. YOu are also an enemy of America.


----------



## MisterBeale (Aug 3, 2021)

Correll said:


> offered to accept evidence we gave them, then they would review it, get back to US



. . . uh . . . .

That's the thing, we never gave them ANY evidence to even review.

That whole time, there were other terrorists on the FBI's most wanted list. . . but OBL?  Nope, there was no evidence, so even the FBI did not place OBL on the most wanted list for 9/11.

You really have no idea what you are talking about.

Boy, that war propaganda sure has done a number on your head, hasn't it?



FBI: Bin Laden Not Wanted for 9/11​ 
The 'FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11'. Vice President Cheney says, 'We've never made the case, or argued the case, that somehow Osama Bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11'​


			FBI: Bin Laden Not Wanted For 9/11 -- Evidence Promised by Secretary Powell Never Released


----------



## Correll (Aug 3, 2021)

MisterBeale said:


> . . . uh . . . .
> 
> That's the thing, we never gave them ANY evidence to even review.
> 
> .....




Don't care. The Taliban, the idiots that decided to host a terrorist group, were given a chance to hand them over and instead of saying "YES SIR, THANK YOU VERY MUCH", they came back with a list of demands.


Instead they got a war, and mostly dead. 


Seems like a bad call on their part.


----------



## dblack (Aug 3, 2021)

Mad_Jack_Flint said:


> Also the World will learn that the China is a house of cards and it will fall just like the Soviet Union did and if and when it does the World will regret backing China…


I agree that there is a 'house of cards' element to China. But if they take Taiwan, the US will no longer be the world's sole superpower. And I fear they will. I'm not sure we can stop them without launching nukes. I'm not sure we can if we do.


----------



## MisterBeale (Aug 3, 2021)

Correll said:


> Don't care. The Taliban, the idiots that decided to host a terrorist group, were given a chance to hand them over and instead of saying "YES SIR, THANK YOU VERY MUCH", they came back with a list of demands.
> 
> 
> Instead they got a war, and mostly dead.
> ...


Dick Cheney himself ADMITTED they had no proof. . . and yet?  You say you DO NOT CARE?



". .  THE VICE PRESIDENT:  That's correct.  We had one report early on from another intelligence service that suggested that the lead hijacker, Mohamed Atta, had met with Iraqi intelligence officials in Prague, Czechoslovakia.  And that reporting waxed and waned where the degree of confidence in it, and so forth, *has been pretty well knocked down now at this stage, that that meeting ever took place.* *So we've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden [sic] was directly involved in 9/11.  That evidence has never been forthcoming. * But there -- that's a separate proposition from the question of whether or not there was some kind of a relationship between the Iraqi government, Iraqi intelligence services and the al Qaeda organization. . . . "





						Interview of the Vice President by Tony Snow
					

VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY: I don't think there's any question about that if you were to withdraw from Iraq. The al Qaeda presence there is significant. Mr. Zarqawi, the top terrorist in Iraq, is the head of al Qaeda in Iraq. He's pledged loyalty to Osama bin Laden; that if we were to withdraw from...



					georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov


----------



## Correll (Aug 3, 2021)

MisterBeale said:


> Dick Cheney himself ADMITTED they had no proof. . . and yet?  You say you DO NOT CARE?
> ...




Correct. The context is some anti-American fuck is claiming that the Taliban offered to turn over Bin Laden, and that our President refused because he was so anxious for war. 


In that context, whether or not we had the evidence they had the nerve to ask for, is irrelevant.


The only reasonable answer from them was "yes sir, thank you sir".


Anything else translated to "we choose a war instead."


----------



## MisterBeale (Aug 3, 2021)

Correll said:


> Correct. The context is some anti-American fuck is claiming that the Taliban offered to turn over Bin Laden, and that our President refused because he was so anxious for war.
> 
> 
> In that context, whether or not we had the evidence they had the nerve to ask for, is irrelevant.
> ...



I can't believe, you are as old as you are, and as uneducated, or have as short of a term memory as you do.

Do you even remember who funded, trained, and created the Mujahedin, and why we did so, that eventually organized politically into the Taliban?   

You aren't even worth me trying to educate or spend time on anymore. . .


----------



## Flash (Aug 3, 2021)

The stealing of the 2020 Election by the Socialist is what marks the end of America.

Not caring by those that know better is a major contributor.


----------



## JWBooth (Aug 3, 2021)

Scott Horton documented the Taliban offers in his books Fool’s Errand   and Enough Already.


----------



## JWBooth (Aug 3, 2021)

Correll said:


> Correct. The context is some anti-American fuck is claiming that the Taliban offered to turn over Bin Laden, and that our President refused because he was so anxious for war.
> 
> 
> In that context, whether or not we had the evidence they had the nerve to ask for, is irrelevant.
> ...


Here the “informed“ point of view among the mouth breathing knuckle dragger class is made available to the rest of us.


----------



## ESay (Aug 4, 2021)

MisterBeale said:


> I a lot of folks became wealthy off of the Afgan policy, and it weakened the US economy and society.
> 
> No one will be held to account.
> 
> Did you miss post #109?


 Of course they did. And maybe even more became wealthy out of the Iraq war. And yes, no one will be held accountable. 

But I don't get your point. The end of the US is approaching because the American elites start wars because of own 'economic' reasons? 

And why then withdrawing from Afghanistan is increasing the pace of this end, if the opposite should be true. They should be eager to stay in Afghanistan as long as they can because that is their source of easy money.

Withdrawing from Afghanistan has one, among others, significant intent. That is to make Afghanistan a headache of not the US, but Russia and China.


----------



## zaangalewa (Aug 4, 2021)

Correll said:


> If that was not your intent, then you did it wrong.



Not from my point of view.



Correll said:


> The Military would have no say in the German Position on nato expansion.



?



Correll said:


> And that is the question as to whether or not your leadership was stupid or not.



?



Correll said:


> NATO expansion was stupid.



?



Correll said:


> Especially as your nation increases trade with Russia.



We trade with "Russia" since decades of thousands of years.


----------



## Correll (Aug 4, 2021)

MisterBeale said:


> I can't believe, you are as old as you are, and as uneducated, or have as short of a term memory as you do.
> 
> Do you even remember who funded, trained, and created the Mujahedin, and why we did so, that eventually organized politically into the Taliban?
> 
> You aren't even worth me trying to educate or spend time on anymore. . .




That is very dishonest, on many levels.  My point stands. 


We asked the Taliban for the Osama bin Laden, and they chose war. That was their choice. The claim that they offered him to us is a lie.


----------



## Correll (Aug 4, 2021)

JWBooth said:


> Here the “informed“ point of view among the mouth breathing knuckle dragger class is made available to the rest of us.




What happened when they didn't turn him over? Dumbass.


----------



## JWBooth (Aug 4, 2021)

Correll said:


> What happened when they didn't turn him over? Dumbass.


Intentionally obtuse or naturally a dullard? 
After refusing to take the Afghan government up on their offer, Shrub and the gang initiated the 20 year disaster.


----------



## Flopper (Aug 4, 2021)

Flash said:


> The stealing of the 2020 Election by the Socialist is what marks the end of America.
> 
> Not caring by those that know better is a major contributor.


Seems like I 've heard that every time a democrat entered the White House since JFK.


----------



## Flash (Aug 4, 2021)

Flopper said:


> Seems like I 've heard that every time a democrat entered the White House since JFK.



JFK did steal the election with the help of his buddies in Chicago.  They even bragged about it.

LBJ didn't.

Jimmy Carter didn't.

Slick Willy didn't.

The Worthless Negro didn't.

Joe Dufus did with the help of his Chicom buddies.  You know, the ones that hated Trump insisting on fair trade deals and the ones that made the Dufus family filthy rich.


----------



## Flopper (Aug 4, 2021)

ESay said:


> Of course they did. And maybe even more became wealthy out of the Iraq war. And yes, no one will be held accountable.
> 
> But I don't get your point. The end of the US is approaching because the American elites start wars because of own 'economic' reasons?
> 
> ...


We entered Afghanistan 20 years ago* "to get the terrorists who attacked us on 9/11 and to deliver justice to Osama Bin Laden, and to degrade the terrorist threat to keep Afghanistan from becoming a base from which attacks could be continued against the United States."   *We were successful in fulfilling our goals.  We got Bin Laden, we got the terrorists, and we did keep Afghanistan from becoming a base for terrorism for 20 years.  However, once we entered the war we created other goals that were not realistic such as creating a lasting democratic form of government, equal rights for women, and bringing the country into the 21st century through education and commerce.  Although we did make some progress, these goals can only be accomplished by the Afghan people.

IMHO, getting out of Afghanistan is long over due.  What we have to gain by staying simply does not justify the cost in lives and dollars.   We had significant accomplishments and we accomplished our goals and now it's time to get out.  We also created an environment that will make it difficult for the Talban to rule as  it did in the 1990's assuming it gains full control of the nation.


----------



## FA_Q2 (Aug 4, 2021)

dblack said:


> I agree that there is a 'house of cards' element to China. But if they take Taiwan, the US will no longer be the world's sole superpower. And I fear they will. I'm not sure we can stop them without launching nukes. I'm not sure we can if we do.


Why would that action herald the end of US superpower status?

Russia took a part of Ukraine.  That does not change the power that the US wields, Taiwan will be no different.

The question is how far will we let this go before we take real action.  That action is not in nukes but in dollars.  Dollars that stop flowing to China when we get the worlds economic powers to cease most trade with them.  That is the sole answer to China's rising influence.

That is going to take real change though, most notably in building up sources of goods that we do not currently have elsewhere.  Things like electronics.


----------



## FA_Q2 (Aug 4, 2021)

Correll said:


> Correct. The context is some anti-American fuck is claiming that the Taliban offered to turn over Bin Laden, and that our President refused because he was so anxious for war.
> 
> 
> In that context, whether or not we had the evidence they had the nerve to ask for, is irrelevant.
> ...


.....
Wow.  Turn the tables and you would be screaming bloody murder.  I guess the entire planet should just prostrate themselves before the US.


----------



## dblack (Aug 4, 2021)

FA_Q2 said:


> Why would that action herald the end of US superpower status?


Taiwan is key to our dominance in the Pacific and southeast Asia. Without it, we're an "also-ran" in the region and will be forced to share power with China.


FA_Q2 said:


> The question is how far will we let this go before we take real action.  That action is not in nukes but in dollars.  Dollars that stop flowing to China when we get the worlds economic powers to cease most trade with them.  That is the sole answer to China's rising influence.


Right, and with our fumbling of covid, we're weakened in that regard. If we don't bounce back soon, it won't be enough leverage.

Here's an interesting article on the topic (sure hoping it's wrong):








						China is going to attack U.S. and its allies soon
					

Commercial satellites passing over the western desert of China have revealed a massive, previously undetected nuclear missile range under construction.




					www.washingtontimes.com


----------



## FA_Q2 (Aug 4, 2021)

dblack said:


> Taiwan is key to our dominance in the Pacific and southeast Asia. Without it, we're an "also-ran" in the region and will be forced to share power with China.
> 
> Right, and with our fumbling of covid, we're weakened in that regard. If we don't bounce back soon, it won't be enough leverage.
> 
> ...


Sure hope so too.  In a war with China, the entire world to include China would lose massively.  As Einstein stated:  
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones"

We are to damn advanced for a war between major world powers.  The importance of massive floating ships is overrated IMHO though, they can be sunk with a single explosive that costs far less and airpower can now be projected around the planet from anywhere.


----------



## Flopper (Aug 4, 2021)

FA_Q2 said:


> Sure hope so too.  In a war with China, the entire world to include China would lose massively.  As Einstein stated:
> "I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones"
> 
> We are to damn advanced for a war between major world powers.  The importance of massive floating ships is overrated IMHO though, they can be sunk with a single explosive that costs far less and airpower can now be projected around the planet from anywhere.


The chance of an all out war with China is extremely unlikely.  China is winning the economic war. They are on target to be the largest economy in the world.  What they have to loose in a major war is far more than what they have to gain.  Unlike the old days during the cold war, China's interest in spreading Communism around the world pales compared to their interest in dominating economic markets.

China's experience in battle is quite limited considering the size of their military.  After the Vietnamese War, almost all of China's military action have been over the border disputes, the largest being Sino Vietnamese Ware of 1979.  China's part in the Vietnamese War was basically one of support providing  large amounts military hardware, supplies, training, bridge and road building, and logistics.  While the North Vietnam had over 600,000 casualties, China's causalities were about 1,100.  The last war that China was engaged in that was truly a major war was the Korean war where causalities exceed over a million men.

Unlike US, the Chinese government has never fought a war more than 500 miles from it's borders and as a result it's military is built around fighting wars nears it's boarder.


----------



## my2¢ (Aug 4, 2021)

Long before Afghanistan we should have learned our lesson about nation building.


----------



## Flopper (Aug 4, 2021)

FA_Q2 said:


> Sure hope so too.  In a war with China, the entire world to include China would lose massively.  As Einstein stated:
> "I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones"
> 
> We are to damn advanced for a war between major world powers.  The importance of massive floating ships is overrated IMHO though, they can be sunk with a single explosive that costs far less and airpower can now be projected around the planet from anywhere.


Both Russia and the US seem to be content to wage limited wars to attain  limited goals such as in Iraq or the Ukraine.  China only engages in Border Wars.  It has not  fought a major war since Korea, 70 years ago.  As long as the superpowers maintain a nuclear deterrent, their wars will be limited in scope.


----------



## Flopper (Aug 4, 2021)

my2¢ said:


> Long before Afghanistan we should have learned our lesson about nation building.


Nation building was not why we were there.


----------



## Correll (Aug 5, 2021)

zaangalewa said:


> Not from my point of view.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




There is "trade" and then there is putting them in charge of your winter heating. 


That's stupid. 


Especially if your leaders supported NATO expansion.


----------



## Correll (Aug 5, 2021)

JWBooth said:


> Intentionally obtuse or naturally a dullard?
> After refusing to take the Afghan government up on their offer, Shrub and the gang initiated the 20 year disaster.




So, stripped of your spin, my words were correct. When the Taliban, instead of coming back with a "yes sir, here he is", effectively asked for and got WAR. And a lot of it. Funny how you lefties never have anything negative to say about THEIR choices or their responsibilities.


So,  what is your whine about anyways?


----------



## JWBooth (Aug 5, 2021)

Correll said:


> So, stripped of your spin, my words were correct. When the Taliban, instead of coming back with a "yes sir, here he is", effectively asked for and got WAR. And a lot of it. Funny how you lefties never have anything negative to say about THEIR choices or their responsibilities.
> 
> 
> So,  what is your whine about anyways?


So, dullard it is.


----------



## ESay (Aug 5, 2021)

Flopper said:


> We entered Afghanistan 20 years ago* "to get the terrorists who attacked us on 9/11 and to deliver justice to Osama Bin Laden, and to degrade the terrorist threat to keep Afghanistan from becoming a base from which attacks could be continued against the United States."   *We were successful in fulfilling our goals.  We got Bin Laden, we got the terrorists, and we did keep Afghanistan from becoming a base for terrorism for 20 years.  However, once we entered the war we created other goals that were not realistic such as creating a lasting democratic form of government, equal rights for women, and bringing the country into the 21st century through education and commerce.  Although we did make some progress, these goals can only be accomplished by the Afghan people.
> 
> IMHO, getting out of Afghanistan is long over due.  What we have to gain by staying simply does not justify the cost in lives and dollars.   We had significant accomplishments and we accomplished our goals and now it's time to get out.  We also created an environment that will make it difficult for the Talban to rule as  it did in the 1990's assuming it gains full control of the nation.


I agree with all that. The withdrawal from Afghanistan is a logical and needed step. I can't see it the other way around. Let Afghanistan be Russia and China's headache.


----------



## Flopper (Aug 5, 2021)

ESay said:


> I agree with all that. The withdrawal from Afghanistan is a logical and needed step. I can't see it the other way around. Let Afghanistan be Russia and China's headache.


Why would Afghanistan be Russia and China's headache?  Russia spent 10 bloody years fighting in Afghanistan and accomplished nothing.  What interest does China have in Afghanistan?  Most of the Afghan GDP depends on financial aid from the US and UN which will evaporate if the Taliban gains power.  Their primary export is rugs and illegal drugs.  Possibility China is interested in their mineral resources, however that would take a substantial investment by China which seems unlikely in a country as unstable as Afghanistan. My Guess China is just looking for a way they could fill the power vacuum as the US leaves without any significant commitment.  For over hundred years, ever foreign power that has become involve with Afghanistan has regretted it.


----------



## easyt65 (Aug 5, 2021)

So...America being unable to stay in Afghanistan forever, unable to turn Afghanistan's government into a US mini-me Democracy, and our over-due departure proves we are no longer a super-power. I though Joe Biden's sell-out to the CCP and Russia was doing that.


----------



## bendog (Aug 5, 2021)

We stopped being the "superpower" in Iraq.  We couldn't even "win" in Afghan.

W pretty much whiffed.  We had a short window after 9-11 to kill al queda at tora bora, and to use the soon to be decommissioned Kittyhawk that no longer had its air wing, to stage parts of the 101st, and the 82nd too.  It would have been risky because Rwanda showed the difficulty of supply with no port.  But we still had at the time the air power and missile to make hell on earth.

We were never going to get rid of the Taliban's view of Islam

Maybe its not a bad thing for the US to not have the capability of destroying any govt that doesn't have a nuclear deterrent.


----------



## ESay (Aug 5, 2021)

Flopper said:


> Why would Afghanistan be Russia and China's headache?  Russia spent 10 bloody years fighting in Afghanistan and accomplished nothing.  What interest does China have in Afghanistan?  Most of the Afghan GDP depends on financial aid from the US and UN which will evaporate if the Taliban gains power.  Their primary export is rugs and illegal drugs.  Possibility China is interested in their mineral resources, however that would take a substantial investment by China which seems unlikely in a country as unstable as Afghanistan. My Guess China is just looking for a way they could fill the power vacuum as the US leaves without any significant commitment.  For over hundred years, ever foreign power that has become involve with Afghanistan has regretted it.


The importance of Afghanistan is in its location. It lies on a crossroad between India, Iran, Russia (through the Central Asia region) and China. 

Central Asia is the sphere of influence of Russia and this region borders with Xinjiang autonomous region of China (whose main population is Muslim).

China and Russia (especially) are interested in stable autocratic governments there that will maintain their allegiance to these powers. The Taliban and other Muslim groups in Afghanistan can destabilise this region. That can result in regional autocrat regimes losing their power and Beijing and especially Moscow providing their help (both economically and militarily) to prop these regimes.


----------



## Correll (Aug 5, 2021)

FA_Q2 said:


> .....
> Wow.  Turn the tables and you would be screaming bloody murder.  I guess the entire planet should just prostrate themselves before the US.




You think it was wrong of President Bush to demand that the people that murdered thousands of our citizens be turned over to us for trial and execution?

Well, President Bush and America, and most of the rest of the world disagreed.


----------



## Correll (Aug 5, 2021)

JWBooth said:


> So, dullard it is.




Your inability to be serious is noted. My point stands. The Taliban hosted a terrorist organization that killed 2,000 American citizens, and when faced with a demand to turn them over to face Justice, 

instead of taking that obvious route, choose to defend the mass murderers.


That was them choosing war. That was on them. That you want to make this about AMERICA, or ME, is just you being an anti-American piece of shit.


----------



## Flopper (Aug 5, 2021)

bendog said:


> We stopped being the "superpower" in Iraq.  We couldn't even "win" in Afghan.
> 
> W pretty much whiffed.  We had a short window after 9-11 to kill al queda at tora bora, and to use the soon to be decommissioned Kittyhawk that no longer had its air wing, to stage parts of the 101st, and the 82nd too.  It would have been risky because Rwanda showed the difficulty of supply with no port.  But we still had at the time the air power and missile to make hell on earth.
> 
> ...


It's not just the nuclear determent.  The US has resources to put troops on the ground and/or missiles in almost every place on the globe in a matter a few hours if not a few days.   The US is the only country on earth that fights wars thousands of miles from it's border.  This is a significant determent for our enemies no matter how far away they may be; they are within reach of the US forces.


----------



## basquebromance (Aug 5, 2021)

just the like the Soviets before them, unfortunately, America is retreating from Afghanistan...in defeat!


----------



## basquebromance (Aug 5, 2021)

the Pakistani intelligence (ISI) would delay planned strikes in order to tell Taliban fighters to disperse

"working with the ISI would break your heart if you do it long enough", Senator John McCain once quipped

these sons of bitches kill Americans...enough is enough!


----------



## basquebromance (Aug 5, 2021)

you can't kill your way out of a war

you need to win over the local folks, folks!


----------



## Coyote (Aug 5, 2021)

No has ever “won” in Afghanistan except Afghanistan.  The Brits tried.  The Soviet’s tried. The US tried.   No one ever,
 learns....


----------



## basquebromance (Aug 5, 2021)

Coyote said:


> No has ever “won” in Afghanistan except Afghanistan.  The Brits tried.  The Soviet’s tried. The US tried.   No one ever,
> learns....


they don't even have a stock market...or beauty pageants! there is no Mr Afghanistan!


----------



## basquebromance (Aug 5, 2021)

you can't win wars through piecemeal drone attacks either, as Obama learned

the lesson from Vietnam was that aerial strikes, even a full bombardment, can accomplish litte


----------



## Flopper (Aug 5, 2021)

basquebromance said:


> you can't kill your way out of a war
> 
> you need to win over the local folks, folks!


As the both the Russians and the US learned that is no possible in Afghanistan because 90% of Afghans live in rural areas in tribal and kinship groups who are hardline Sunni and who support the Talban.  They oppose just about everything aspect of American life.


----------



## Correll (Aug 5, 2021)

Flopper said:


> As the both the Russians and the US learned that is no possible in Afghanistan because 90% of Afghans live in rural areas in tribal and kinship groups who are hardline Sunni and who support the Talban.  They oppose just about everything aspect of American life.





Until Reagan started giving the Mujaheen Stingers, it was looking like the Russians were going to prove that you COULD kill your way out of a war, even in Afghanistan. 


Their campaigns against the civilian population were going pretty well. Until those armored helicopters started blowing up.


----------



## FA_Q2 (Aug 6, 2021)

Correll said:


> You think it was wrong of President Bush to demand that the people that murdered thousands of our citizens be turned over to us for trial and execution?
> 
> Well, President Bush and America, and most of the rest of the world disagreed.


No, I think it is wrong for you to state that they should bend over and say can I have another please without any proof or diplomacy involved.  If you think pushing back because they doubt the veracity of US claims constitutes a right for us to vaporize your nation then you are nuts.  I expect no less from the US, we should not be turning anyone over that is within our control if we do not think the claims are solid.


----------



## CowboyTed (Aug 6, 2021)

Mad_Jack_Flint said:


> Leaving Afghanistan was going to happen and the return of the Taliban was going to happen, so that is not what will kill this country…
> 
> What is destroying our country is our inability to kick Russian, Chinese and Iranian influence out of countries south of our border from Mexico to South America!
> 
> ...


Unfortunately the Taliban will gain back the country... The problem was invading the first day... Should have put the Taliban to the sword by cutting off the world to them and then weakening them through airstrikes until warlords gain power.. Then negotiate with them..


Afganistan pre Taliban


----------



## kyzr (Aug 6, 2021)

After 20-years and trillions of dollars, not to mention the young American lives, enough is enough.
I don't consider leaving AFG an American loss, anymore than leaving VN was.  Look at VN today.
As long as the Taliban stay in AFG they are no threat to the US.
Its up to the Afghans to determine the fate of their country.


----------



## Correll (Aug 6, 2021)

FA_Q2 said:


> No, I think it is wrong for you to state that they should bend over and say can I have another please without any proof or diplomacy involved.  If you think pushing back because they doubt the veracity of US claims constitutes a right for us to vaporize your nation then you are nuts.  I expect no less from the US, we should not be turning anyone over that is within our control if we do not think the claims are solid.



They were hosting a terrorist group that committed mass murder. 

Maybe THEY should have given more consideration to the diplomatic implications of that, BEFORE they did it. 


But, you are not upset with them, but with the US for being rude and demanding in seeking justice for their thousands of dead citizens.


Incredible.


----------



## basquebromance (Aug 6, 2021)

did you know?

once upon a time, a CIA officer known as "Greg V." threw himself atop Afghan President Hamed Karzai and saved his life

they owe us their life


----------



## bendog (Aug 6, 2021)

Correll said:


> They were hosting a terrorist group that committed mass murder.
> 
> Maybe THEY should have given more consideration to the diplomatic implications of that, BEFORE they did it.
> 
> ...


I think our military has killed about every Taliban involved with that.  And justifiably so.  I just don't see why we kept our guys in harms way after OBL was dead along with everyone else involved.


----------



## Richard-H (Aug 6, 2021)

The withdrawal from Afghanistan will not affect the U.S.'s standing as a world Power. It was far less significant than our withdrawal from Vietnam.

The war in Afghanistan was nothing more than a play toy for the U.S. military industrial complex, as was Korea & Vietnam. 

What IS significant is any threat to the standing of the U.S. as the world's currency reserve. If that ever changes - we are screwed BIG TIME.

However, no other country maintains the stability and trust the U.S. government does. None is even close.

It may be Putin's & Xi's wildest dreams to become the world's currency reserve, but it ain't gonna happen....

Unless Trump gets elected again...


----------



## basquebromance (Aug 6, 2021)

neither Republicans nor Democrats need to walk off a cliff for another unpopular war!

NO MORE WARS! NO MORE WARS! NO MORE WARS!


----------



## basquebromance (Aug 6, 2021)




----------



## basquebromance (Aug 6, 2021)

Afghanistan's instability fuels Pakistan's insecurity

they're the same country in my view... i call 'em "Afpak"!

"these guys are serious. they are clever and sadistic. we have to kill them before they kill us" - President Biden on the Taliban threat


----------



## basquebromance (Aug 6, 2021)

i agree with the title of this thread.

the American empire has succumbed! SUCCUMBED! (just ask Cornel West)

i am hopeful though, because Biden knows Afghanistan more than he knows his own hometown in Delaware...he's been there countless times

we need to bring back the 4 D's: Dominate, disrupt, dismantle, defeat


----------



## basquebromance (Aug 6, 2021)

For too long, America’s generals have relied on a “stab in the back” thesis to justify their failure on the battlefield. The narrative set in after Vietnam and has calcified today. Former national security adviser and Lt. Gen. H.R. McMaster tweeted on July 8 in regards to the sweeping march of the Taliban that the “US media is finally reporting on the transformation of Afghanistan after their disinterest and defeatism helped set conditions for capitulation and a humanitarian catastrophe.”

McMaster’s attempt to deflect blame for military failure on an insufficiently obsequious media is unacceptable. He and his fellow generals knew full well that Afghanistan was unstable and that our strategy wasn’t working. Instead of speaking up, they lied to the public and then jumped into the private sector to reap the reward of misbegotten trust

Gen Milley himself claimed, in Kabul in 2013, that “[The Afghan] army and … police force have been very, very effective in combat against the insurgents every single day.” He was lying. More than 60,000 Afghan police and military were killed during our occupation compared to just 42,000 alleged Taliban. Afghanistan’s military and government were utterly corrupt. American officials, in private admitted that at least 40 percent of the $103 billion in reconstruction funds spent in Afghanistan went into the hands of insurgents, Taliban, and corrupt “allied” warlords.


----------



## Correll (Aug 6, 2021)

bendog said:


> I think our military has killed about every Taliban involved with that.  And justifiably so.  I just don't see why we kept our guys in harms way after OBL was dead along with everyone else involved.




I agree. Getting involved in nation building in that medieval cesspit was very dumb. We should have declared someone King, planted his ass on a Throne in Kabul, and declared victory and went home, and let the tribal chiefs lord it over their tribes and all their goats.


----------



## Kondor3 (Aug 6, 2021)

Not to worry...

In the context of American military supremacy...

Afghanistan is a blip on the scope... a pimple... a gnat... a flea... machts nichts... means nothing...


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## basquebromance (Aug 7, 2021)




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## basquebromance (Aug 7, 2021)

there has never been "good governance" in Pakistan or Afghanistan's history. these folks are way beyond the pale in terms of corruption


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## basquebromance (Aug 7, 2021)

Biden is dithering while American lives are in danger, my friends!


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## basquebromance (Aug 7, 2021)

"a nationwide counter-insurgency effort to defeat the Taliban would take 1 trillion dollars and 10 years" - Gen McChrystal in the Obama years

good luck getting the support of the American people for such endless wars from now on


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## basquebromance (Aug 8, 2021)

Pakistan with a nuke is 10 trillion times more dangerous than Iran with a nuke. just sayin'!


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## Mindful (Aug 8, 2021)

CowboyTed said:


> Unfortunately the Taliban will gain back the country



Looks like it. They’re making huge gains.

Pakistan supports them.


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## basquebromance (Aug 8, 2021)

it's not like if it weren't for the Taliban, Kandahar would be a shining city on a hill...these people are primitives either way!


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## surada (Aug 8, 2021)

MisterBeale said:


> The Atlantic is CFR propaganda.  I wouldn't trust them if you waterboarded me.



You wouldn't know good work if it was in your face. Rest assured Trump has NEVER read Forbes, the Atlantic, Oil Price, the New Yorker or the US Constitution.

Waste of time waterboarding you. You don't know anything.


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## Mindful (Aug 8, 2021)

We’ve been in Afghanistan 20 years, Joe Biden’s generals told him. All we need is a little more time. The president overruled them, ordering a complete withdrawal of American troops by September 11th.

Madiha Afzal and Michael O’Hanlon of the Brookings Institution articulate the opposition to Biden’s decision to call it quits. Remove the U.S. occupation forces that have maintained stability, they worry, and civil war will soon follow, culminating in the overthrow of the U.S.-backed government in Kabul and the return of the Taliban. They think it will be the late 1990s all over again: women back under burqas, stonings, 14th century Islam providing a safe haven for anti-Western terrorist groups like Al Qaeda.

“The most likely outcome of any quick troop exit this year is very ugly, including ethnic cleansing, mass slaughter, and the ultimate dismemberment of the country,” Ms. Afzal and Mr. O’Hanlon write in _USA Today_. “No one can see the future, of course, but this type of outcome seems much more likely than any smooth transition to a new government run by a kinder, gentler, more moderate Taliban.” They urge a slower long-term drawdown.

I think they’re wrong.









						Afghanistan Under the Taliban: It Won’t Be Like Last Time | Ted Rall's Rallblog
					

We’ve been in Afghanistan 20 years, Joe Biden’s generals told him. All we need is a little more time. The president overruled them, ordering a complete withdrawal of American troops by September 11th. Madiha Afzal and Michael O’Hanlon of the Brookings Institution articulate the opposition to...




					rall.com


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## surada (Aug 8, 2021)

basquebromance said:


> it's not like if it weren't for the Taliban, Kandahar would be a shining city on a hill...these people are primitives either way!



The country has been at war since 1974 when Afghani Communists overthrew the Monarchy.

They had 90% literacy, movie theaters, cafes, etc..

LOLOL They weren't "primitive" at all. 

You can't beat mountain people on their own turf.. Think about the montagnards.


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## basquebromance (Aug 8, 2021)

"we'll be in Afghanistan forever" - Bob Gates "assured" Hamed Karzai in the Obama years

that tells you all ya need to know, my friends!


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## surada (Aug 8, 2021)

basquebromance said:


> "we'll be in Afghanistan forever" - Bob Gates "assured" Hamed Karzai in the Obama years
> 
> that tells you all ya need to know, my friends!



He was part of Bush's idiocy ..  Bush was trying to save Dabhol for ENRON.. They were big campaign contributors.

Robert Gates - Wikipedia








						Robert Gates - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




Robert Michael Gates (born September 25, 1943) is an American intelligence analyst, and university president who served as the 22nd United States secretary of defense from 2006 to 2011. He was originally appointed by President George W. Bush and was retained for service by President Barack Obama. Gates began his career serving as an officer in the United States Air Force but was qui…


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## Flopper (Aug 8, 2021)

kyzr said:


> After 20-years and trillions of dollars, not to mention the young American lives, enough is enough.
> I don't consider leaving AFG an American loss, anymore than leaving VN was.  Look at VN today.
> As long as the Taliban stay in AFG they are no threat to the US.
> Its up to the Afghans to determine the fate of their country.


You're right it is not a loss.   America like Russia fights limited wars to obtains limited goals.  In the Afghanistan war, our goals were to get the terrorists who attacked us on 9/11 and to deliver justice to Osama bin Laden, to degrade the terrorist threat, and to keep Afghanistan from becoming a base from which attacks could be continued against the United State.  We accomplished all of those goals.  However, over the 20 year war, we set up other goals that were unrealistic such as creating a lasting democratic style goverment, ridding  the nations of the Talaban, equal rights for women, and taking Afghanistan into the 21st century via educations and commerce. These goals can only be accomplished by the people, certainly not an occupying military force.


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## Flopper (Aug 8, 2021)

surada said:


> You wouldn't know good work if it was in your face. Rest assured Trump has NEVER read Forbes, the Atlantic, Oil Price, the New Yorker or the US Constitution.
> 
> Waste of time waterboarding you. You don't know anything.


Trump said before he was elected he got his news from CNN.  He now get's his news from from Fox News and Fox and Friends.  He said he's have time to read books.


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## surada (Aug 8, 2021)

Flopper said:


> Trump said before he was elected he got his news from CNN.  He now get's his news from from Fox News and Fox and Friends.  He said he's have time to read books.



Trump is severely dyslexic.. He can't read.


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## surada (Aug 8, 2021)

Flopper said:


> You're right it is not a loss.   America like Russia fights limited wars to obtains limited goals.  In the Afghanistan war, our goals were to get the terrorists who attacked us on 9/11 and to deliver justice to Osama bin Laden, to degrade the terrorist threat, and to keep Afghanistan from becoming a base from which attacks could be continued against the United State.  We accomplished all of those goals.  However, over the 20 year war, we set up other goals that were unrealistic such as creating a lasting democratic style goverment, ridding  the nations of the Talaban, equal rights for women, and taking Afghanistan into the 21st century via educations and commerce. These goals can only be accomplished by the people, certainly not an occupying military force.



Nah, Bush was trying to save ENRON's 2 billion dollar white elephant in Dabhol.. They were big campaign contributors for him.. They needed the Taliban to give them a transit gas pipeline across across Afghanistan.


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## basquebromance (Aug 8, 2021)

we should wage war on TERRORISM, not the nation of Afghanistan itself


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## basquebromance (Aug 10, 2021)

we need to leave. we should have never gone in in the first place. it's not worth it. IT'S NOT WORTH IT!

we've payed 7 trillion dollars, and no one gives a shit


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## MisterBeale (Aug 12, 2021)

Unkotare said:


> "Loss"? What loss?


Are you on drugs?

Or just living in an alternate reality?


No. . . seriously, I want to know.

Maybe you believe we won in Vietnam too?


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## Unkotare (Aug 12, 2021)

MisterBeale said:


> Are you on drugs?
> ....


No.


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## MisterBeale (Aug 12, 2021)

. . so just garden variety denial. . .


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## Rigby5 (Aug 12, 2021)

MisterBeale said:


> Are you on drugs?
> 
> Or just living in an alternate reality?
> 
> ...



Since we claim to believe in democracy and the vast majority of the Vietnamese wanted us out, then by leaving we supported democracy, which means we did win.


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## MisterBeale (Aug 12, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Since we claim to believe in democracy and the vast majority of the Vietnamese wanted us out, then by leaving we supported democracy, which means we did win.


You know any Vietnamese do you?


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## Rigby5 (Aug 12, 2021)

MisterBeale said:


> You know any Vietnamese do you?



Yes, I know lots of Vietnamese.
The ones that came here were mostly those who collaborated with the French, or the Montagnard minority.


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## Unkotare (Aug 13, 2021)

MisterBeale said:


> . . so just garden variety denial. . .


No.


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## MisterBeale (Aug 17, 2021)

So now we need an independent commission to get down to the bottom of why the globalists, their institutions, and their global corporations are destroying America, the planet, and every other nation on the planet?

That's rich. . . isn't it?  As if they would ever admit to that, eh?





__





						We need an independent commission to look at what happened in Afghanistan
					

It isn't just a Biden problem, it didn't start now, and  it goes much deeper than what happened today.  It requires some serious political soul searching and our broken hyperpatisan political system is incapable of doing that with integrity.  Some of the questions that come to me, as more and...



					www.usmessageboard.com


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## Flopper (Aug 17, 2021)

Mindful said:


> We’ve been in Afghanistan 20 years, Joe Biden’s generals told him. All we need is a little more time. The president overruled them, ordering a complete withdrawal of American troops by September 11th.
> 
> Madiha Afzal and Michael O’Hanlon of the Brookings Institution articulate the opposition to Biden’s decision to call it quits. Remove the U.S. occupation forces that have maintained stability, they worry, and civil war will soon follow, culminating in the overthrow of the U.S.-backed government in Kabul and the return of the Taliban. They think it will be the late 1990s all over again: women back under burqas, stonings, 14th century Islam providing a safe haven for anti-Western terrorist groups like Al Qaeda.
> 
> ...


Biden did what should have been done a long time ago. Get the Fuck Out.  We have been sending in troops and withdrawing troops and waiting just little bit longer for the miracle that was never going to happen.  We accomplish what went there too do, deny a homeland for the terrorists, get Bin Laden, and take revenge for 9-11 ten years ago. We won but failed to get out.  Now it's up to Afghan people.  We gave them 20 years of our dollars and American lives. Now it's their turn to fight for freedom, democracy, and the American way of life.


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## Colin norris (Aug 17, 2021)

Mad_Jack_Flint said:


> Why?
> 
> You were quick to tell me your hate for the U.S. and I agree the U.S. should leave Europe and allow Russian tanks to roll over her with the backing of China and then when you call begging for help, well I would say hell no!
> 
> ...



The greatest power on earth co him d by beat a mob of ratbag ragheads in 20 years and you think you will be called for assistance. In your dreams.


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## MisterBeale (Aug 17, 2021)

Progressive Critics Say Investors in US Weapon-Makers Only Clear Winners of Afghan War
					

"The military-industrial complex got exactly what it wanted out of this war."




					www.commondreams.org


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## MisterBeale (Aug 18, 2021)

6 Questions we NEED to ask about Afghanistan​So, what’s REALLY going on? Is the apparent Taliban “victory” masking the true narrative?​








						6 Questions we NEED to ask about Afghanistan
					

Kit Knightly Afghanistan has “fallen”, that’s the line. The Taliban forces have taken the opportunity of US/NATO withdrawal and swept across the entire country, taking every major…




					off-guardian.org
				




1. Did the Taliban really just win?​

2. Is the chaos real?​
" . . .All of this serves a purpose, aside from the distraction of emotive metaphors and lurid headlines. It all aids in the construction of a narrative.

In this case, the ideas of US “mistakes” and “incompetence” and “wishful thinking” are discussed at length, without ever touching on the true mendacity at the heart of the Afghan invasion.

The “end” of the Afghan war is being used to re-brand its beginnings. The Taliban are propped up as villains, again, and associated with Al Qaeda, as if _they_ were ever anything but a Western tool in the first place.

People are talking about “spreading democracy” and “counter-terrorism” as if they were the _real_ aims of the war, instead of long-discredited lies.

Marketing Afghanistan as a “defeat” for the US camouflages the truth of it – the war was a VERY profitable business venture.

And, of course, it all serves to reinforce the frail official story of 9/11, a vital keystone in the construction of our geo-political “reality”.   . . "

3. What about the heroin?​
4. Will there be any Political Fallout?​*" . . .Geo-politically, the talk is of Russia and China – the only two counties to officially recognise the Taliban government – “stepping into the void”. This is being played as a victory for America’s enemies (and another stick with which to beat Biden), but does that really mean anything?

The Covid “pandemic” has been an eye-opener in terms of conflict between nations. They’ve shown us that, when they really need to, they work together to the same end. They tell the same lies, sell the same stories, and want the same thing. The wall at the back of the theatre has been revealed, in that regard.

The truth is, no matter which nations notionally hold sway in Afghanistan, the profits from the war, the lithium and the heroin will all end up going to the same few pockets. Corporations rule, not countries. Nation-states are no longer the players of the Great Game, they are the pieces. Toys for corporate megaliths. Their owners can make them fight each other, or bump them together and make kissy noises. Each is equally meaningless. . . ."
*
5. Is there another “Refugee Crisis” on the way?​
". . .That importing asylum seekers, undocumented, from a near-failed state could be suggested at all during an allegedly “deadly pandemic” is a sign of just how contrived both narratives are.

It’s not said much – but corporations_ love_ refugees. Just like illegal immigrants, undocumented refugees can be used as cheap labour, with none of the legal protections of full citizens. They can then be blamed for deteriorating living standards, unemployment and wage stagnation. They act as a heat-sink for public anger.

Further, “refugees” with no passports are a great way to get your trained mercenaries, agitators, saboteurs, and/or special forces across national borders without leaving a trail. . . . "

6. Will we see a major terrorist attack?​


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