# How much teachers get  in each country



## browsing deer (Apr 26, 2016)

This graph purports to show three things...  How many hours worked, how much they get paid, how effective the teachers are.


First, a real surprise was that Israel has ineffective teachers who don't work much, and don't get paid very much.     assumption was that they would be off the chart the other  end.

Canada works their teachers but par a lot.

Korea doesn't pay teachers very much.  But they get the same level of output.  They also require a little bit more hours.



An interesting chart


Teachers’ pay and working hours in the OECD

Apr 26th 2016, 15:05BY THE DATA TEAM

Teaching assistance
http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2016/04/daily-chart-18?fsrc=permar|image1

ATTRACTING bright, motivated people into teaching is a struggle in many countries. Low pay is often blamed, especially when it is combined with long working hours. The difficulties of teacher recruitment, one argument goes, is why pupils in some countries do so poorly in school. But data from the OECD, a club of mostly rich countries, suggest that—at least for educational outcomes—neither hours nor pay matters much. Japanese and South Korean pupils are neck-and-neck near the top of the PISA rankings of 15-year-olds’ literacy, numeracy and scientific knowledge. Their teachers are paid about the same, but put in vastly different hours: a whopping 54 hours per week in Japan, compared with 37 in South Korea. Pupils in Estonia, which has the lowest-paid teachers in the group, do better than those in the Netherlands, where teachers’ salaries are five times as high and hours just the same. Even when GDP per person is taken into account the Netherlands is unusually generous to teachers, and Estonia unusually stingy.


----------



## Andylusion (Apr 26, 2016)

The first thing to grasp from the Chart, is that as I have said for literally a decade or more, is that we pay teachers TONS of money.   There is only two countries that pay more than we do.   Netherlands and Canada.

This non-stop drum beat, that we need to shell out more money, is crazy.

The second thing to grasp, is that some of the lowest paid teachers, are producing the highest quality students.   Finland, Estonia, Poland, all out perform US students by a wide margin, and yet are paid a fraction as much.

I wager Vietnam, and Taiwan are also paid a fraction as much, but are not on your list.

The third thing to grasp, is that most of these education systems, spend less time teaching than do our teachers.

I would suggest that it's not really because they are just so amazing, that they can teach in 4 hours, what our teachers take all day to teach.... but rather because they are not required to teach as much, other than the fundamentals.


----------



## DGS49 (Apr 28, 2016)

Any data on average teacher compensation in American public schools is worthless.  The payscales vary immensely by state, geographical region, and the strength of the teachers' unions.  Where I live the public school teachers' pay scale goes well into 6 figures, and about half of the existing teachers are there already.  But that ain't typical.  There are school districts within easy driving distance of my home where the scales max out at $70k.
Garbage in; garbage out.  In countries (and neighborhoods) where the culture places a high value on academics, you could have college upperclassmen teach and the results would be fine.  In places where academics are unimportant, even great teachers will struggle to get good "outcomes."
The American public school calendar is based on the needs of a society where most of the students must help out on the family farm in Summer.  The fact that we have never changed it is absolutely outrageous.  The loss of academic progress (and the criminal waste of time) during the 2+ months of Summer vacation is a crime.
The American school system is absolutely hamstrung by the strength of the teachers' unions, who have NO INTEREST whatsoever in education, but only the betterment of their members' interests - education be damned.
The American public school system is so infected with the cancer of "extracurricular activities" that it is a wonder anyone learns anything.  We are the only developed country in the world that has school sports.  Everywhere else, sports are done recreationally, and managed by private clubs.  Exhibit A:  A college scholarship for "Cheerleading."  Could anything else be as ridiculous?
It's a good thing I'm not the Czar of American Education.


----------



## browsing deer (Apr 28, 2016)

Japan is  very aggressive about sports.  Especially swimming and basketball.


----------



## Andylusion (Apr 28, 2016)

browsing deer said:


> Japan is  very aggressive about sports.  Especially swimming and basketball.



I doubt that.   From my understanding, the elementary schools have zero sports at all.  If a parent wishes their child to be part of a sports team, they must join a club, and pay for it themselves.

The elementary school in my home town, recently paid millions to have two baseball diamond built, with an electronic score board.   Complete waste of money.

Japan does encourage sports in general, and I have no problem with joining a sports team either.  I have no problem with people being active.

Here is what I am opposed to....



 

That's not a major NFL stadium.... That's a high school.     The stadium.... is bigger.... than the school.

Hello..... something is wrong.   Priorities are screwed up somewhere.

$60 Million dollars for a high school sports stadium?    HIGH SCHOOL?    There was a school in Ohio that paid out $320,000 for an upgrade to their stadium.    That's nutz, let alone millions....

This is the issue.

Now I'll tell you what.... when we cut the education system cost to the level of Japan, which is quite a bit less than how much we spend.... and when we have education outcomes similar to Japan, which are nearly double ours..... THEN you can justify to me, spending tons of money on sports.


----------



## koshergrl (Apr 28, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> browsing deer said:
> 
> 
> > Japan is  very aggressive about sports.  Especially swimming and basketball.
> ...


 
My kids don't receive science books. If they want to use a book, they have to check it out.

Wtf. All the money that the schools get, and they can't provide a science book to my kid? It all goes to the admin and the teachers.

And the science teacher is a freaking lunatic. I just spoke to her on the phone, I called to talk to her because my son said he was having difficulty in the class...and she was literally raving. I called the principal and said get my kid out of that class NOW. I don't know what her problem is, but my kid isn't going to be exposed to it. And I get the feeling I'm not the only one that's calling....

Anything they pay that pos is too much.


----------



## DGS49 (Apr 28, 2016)

KG I think you've overstated the case.  Your son can USE the book, but he can't take it home unless he checks it out.

Homework should be banned.  The school day should be 8 hours long, and 2-3 of those hours should be dedicated to workshops, where the kids do problems, write essays, and otherwise practice the learning that they get in the instructional times.  A typical good student today spends more than 8 hours on school stuff, all things considered.

And the reason why this will never happen is that extracurricular activities are more important than education.  If the kids spent 8 hours doing academic things, there would be no time for fun & games.


----------



## Skull Pilot (Apr 28, 2016)

No way teachers in the US work 45 hours a week.  They have summers off and holiday time  and half days.

They have more time off than anyone


----------



## Andylusion (Apr 28, 2016)

koshergrl said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > browsing deer said:
> ...



And better yet, if the teacher is bad, there is almost nothing the principal can do.   School principals today, have about as much power as a prison warden, where the prison is owned and operated by the inmates, and every convict has both the keys and the locks to every room.

I was reading about Finland, and the one thing the Finnish school people THEMSELVES were complaining about, was the teachers Unions.   They were talking about teachers who showed up in the class room, completely plastered.  Drunk out of their minds, and the school administration couldn't do much except require the teacher sign up for classes for alcoholics, but couldn't even require that they show up for the classes.   They could come to work drunk for 10 years, before the union contracts and control on administration allowed them to be removed.


----------



## DGS49 (Apr 28, 2016)

Finland is not a good example.  With the terrible climate and the extremely short winter days, alcoholism is endemic.


----------



## Andylusion (Apr 29, 2016)

DGS49 said:


> Finland is not a good example.  With the terrible climate and the extremely short winter days, alcoholism is endemic.



I'm confused by that response.    Are you suggesting that having the climate, and winter days, means that you would have no problem with your child NOT being taught because their teacher was in a drunken alcoholic stupor in the classroom?

Would you have the breaks on your car fixed by a drunken alcoholic mechanic in a stupor?   Would you trust a drunken alcoholic doctor to operate on you?

Would you accept that, if the Doctors Unions, prevented you from refusing to be operated by a doctor, clearly intoxicated, and barely able to stand?

It's always funny when people try and defend something, that if the positions were reversed, they would never tolerate.


----------



## Unkotare (Apr 30, 2016)

Skull Pilot said:


> No way teachers in the US work 45 hours a week.





Yeah, it's a lot more than that.


----------



## bodecea (Apr 30, 2016)

You'd think, with all the RWrs saying that teachers in this country have big vacations and are overpaid and are protected from ever being fired....they'd flock to teaching.   So....why is there currently a teacher shortage in this country?


----------



## Skull Pilot (Apr 30, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > No way teachers in the US work 45 hours a week.
> ...



Right summers off, all kinds of time off during the school year

Not even close to a full time job


----------



## Andylusion (Apr 30, 2016)

bodecea said:


> You'd think, with all the RWrs saying that teachers in this country have big vacations and are overpaid and are protected from ever being fired....they'd flock to teaching.   So....why is there currently a teacher shortage in this country?



There isn't.   Statically, there is no teacher shortage.

Pupil-teacher ratio in primary education (headcount basis) | Data | Table

The number of students per teacher, is fairly on par with the rest of the 1st world.  If anything, we're at the higher end of the number of teachers.





Class room size is also fairly on par.  Ironically, the countries with massive class sizes are also some of the top education systems in the world.  Korea, Japan, Germany.  Even Poland, Spain and France, rank higher educationally, and have larger class sizes than we do.

So there is no short of teachers on the national level.

The shortage of teachers is at the local level.   Here in the upper middle class school system of Hilliard, there is a waiting list for teaching positions.  People apply constantly.

However the same is not true in the inner city.   My sister actually was planning to be a teacher, and applied for one of those "teach here for x years, and your student loans are forgiven."  They required her to spend one week in the school to determine if she could handle it, and after that week, she canceled and dropped out.

The students are out of control, the staff was mean, and there was nothing you could do.  Can't smack the kids.  Can't send them all to the principals office.  And you certainly can't teach much.

In those public schools, yeah... there's a teacher shortage.  No freakin duh.    But in the rest of the country, where kids are not insane, and teachers can actually get rid of bad kids, they have an abundance of applications for teaching positions.

This is one of the reasons I'm so against the public school system.

In good schools, you end up with bad teachers you can't fire because of the Unions.
In bad schools, you end kids you can't teach, out of control, and can't get rid of because of parents.

And then you wonder why private schools routinely cost less money to operate, and end up with vastly better educational results.


----------



## Andylusion (Apr 30, 2016)

Skull Pilot said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



Hey hey guys.....    Both my parents were public school teachers.   It's not all fun and games.  And now that they are retired and are millionaires, not including their tax payer funded pensions.... figuring out how to spend their money is a full time gig.

You should have seen them trying to figure out how they wanted to renovate their new lake house on Lake Erie.   It takes a lot out of you!


----------



## Unkotare (Apr 30, 2016)

Skull Pilot said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



Mandatory training and retraining on-going.

Many unpaid obligations.


A lot more than a full-time job. A hell of a lot more than 45 hours a week.


----------



## Unkotare (Apr 30, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> ....
> 
> However the same is not true in the inner city.   My sister actually was planning to be a teacher, and applied for one of those "teach here for x years, and your student loans are forgiven."  They required her to spend one week in the school to determine if she could handle it, and after that week, she canceled and dropped out.....




It's not for the faint of heart.


----------



## Unkotare (Apr 30, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> browsing deer said:
> 
> 
> > Japan is  very aggressive about sports.  Especially swimming and basketball.
> ...




Don't doubt it. 

And the importance of athletics as a part of overall education has been recognized since the time of the ancient Greeks.


----------



## Unkotare (Apr 30, 2016)

DGS49 said:


> ...
> 
> Homework should be banned.  ....
> And the reason why this will never happen is that extracurricular activities are more important than education.  .....




Both of these statements are absurd.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Apr 30, 2016)

Skull Pilot said:


> No way teachers in the US work 45 hours a week.  They have summers off and holiday time  and half days.
> 
> They have more time off than anyone



No. It's closer to 60.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Apr 30, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...





Skull Pilot said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



You'd be dead inside a week. Come on and give it a try!  I dare you!


----------



## rdean (Apr 30, 2016)

Other countries send their students here to go to school.  More and more to attend High School.  And Republicans call them the worst schools in the world.  Because they won't teach magical creation and alternate history.  Worse, they despise critical thinking skills, believing children will start thinking for themselves.  Children will stop listening to their pastor, Fox and their parents.


----------



## Andylusion (Apr 30, 2016)

rdean said:


> Other countries send their students here to go to school.  More and more to attend High School.  And Republicans call them the worst schools in the world.  Because they won't teach magical creation and alternate history.  Worse, they despise critical thinking skills, believing children will start thinking for themselves.  Children will stop listening to their pastor, Fox and their parents.



People from other countries, generally do not send their kids to go to US public K-12 schools, which is what this discussion has been about up till now.

No one suggested that US schools were the worst in the world.  The BBC did a documentary on public K-12 schools in India, where teachers either don't show up... or they do show up, and take a nap until the class is over.   We're better than that obviously.

What we did claim, and in a *FACT* is that we have the one of the most expensive K-12 systems in the world, if not the absolute most expensive, with some of the highest paid teachers in the world, and yet we have educational results that place us 27th or lower.    And that there are many school systems in first world countries, that cost a fraction as much, and end up with much better results.

We can, and have, posted the relevant data to prove such.

As to your suggestion that people send their students here to study... that's true in the College/University area.  But even there, they don't send their kids to go to 100% public colleges, like say Shawnee State University, or Columbus State Community College.   No, the top rated universities, are generally private.

Yale, Havard, MIT, Stanford, Princeton, UPenn, Columbia, Duke, Rice, Caltech, Vanderbilt, UoC, Notre Dame, Emory and so on and so so.

You don't see foreign people sending their kids to University of Akron Ohio, or something.   Government funded schools are generally not nearly as good as the private ones, with few exceptions.


----------



## Skull Pilot (Apr 30, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



Sorry but no

How Many Hours do Public School Teachers Really Work? - AEI

_But do they work longer hours overall? According to BLS, the answer is essentially no. The average work week for teachers seems to be around 40 hours, similar to what teachers themselves report to the Census Bureau._


----------



## Skull Pilot (Apr 30, 2016)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > No way teachers in the US work 45 hours a week.  They have summers off and holiday time  and half days.
> ...



No it's not at least not according to the bureau of labor statistics


----------



## Unkotare (Apr 30, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> > Other countries send their students here to go to school.  More and more to attend High School.  And Republicans call them the worst schools in the world.  Because they won't teach magical creation and alternate history.  Worse, they despise critical thinking skills, believing children will start thinking for themselves.  Children will stop listening to their pastor, Fox and their parents.
> ...




Yes, they do when they can. This is increasing all the time.


----------



## Unkotare (Apr 30, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> ....
> 
> You don't see foreign people sending their kids to University of Akron Ohio, or something.   ....




"This year, students and scholars from 90 countries are part of the Akron family."

International Admissions : The University of Akron


----------



## Unkotare (Apr 30, 2016)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > koshergrl said:
> ...





^^^^this


----------



## Skull Pilot (Apr 30, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...



I doubt that I've worked real jobs for 80 or 90 hours a week

If teaching took as much skill as you say you'd all be paid a hell of a lot more


----------



## Andylusion (Apr 30, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > ....
> ...



LOL

Thanks.   Love you too man.   That is surprising though.  I never thought much of Akron U.  That's why I picked it at random.

Obviously I'm wrong.   Although, is that a schoolarship system?   Are they subsidizing foreign students, to get them to come there?  Or do they really have that much status? 

I don't know. Whatever.


----------



## Andylusion (Apr 30, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > rdean said:
> ...



Really.   Who?   From third world countries? 

By sending their kids to K-12, I don't mean they move here, and work here, and send their kids to schools here.  I know many who have done that.

But just to send their kids to the US, specifically for K-12 schooling?  I'm open to the idea.  I'd love to see the evidence for this.


----------



## Unkotare (Apr 30, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> ....
> 
> But just to send their kids to the US, specifically for K-12 schooling? ....




In preparation for university schooling thereafter.


----------



## Unkotare (Apr 30, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> ....
> 
> Really.   Who?   From third world countries?.....




Very often from some of those countries to which American schools are so often unfavorably compared. Sometimes one parent will come with their child, relocate and live apart from their spouse who stays back in the home country working so that the family can support the student fully.


----------



## Andylusion (Apr 30, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > ....
> ...



Only so they can go to a US university?   Why would they go from a better school, to a worse school?


----------



## Unkotare (Apr 30, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> ...   Why would they go from a better school, to a worse school?




Who said they had?


----------



## Andylusion (Apr 30, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > ...   Why would they go from a better school, to a worse school?
> ...



"Very often from some of those countries to which American schools are so often unfavorably compared"


----------



## Unkotare (Apr 30, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...




and?


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Apr 30, 2016)

Skull Pilot said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



That's odd.  They never asked me.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory (Apr 30, 2016)

Skull Pilot said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> ...



Why don't you try it and see if you think it is so easy?


----------



## Andylusion (Apr 30, 2016)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> ...





Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



Like I said before, both my parents were teachers.  They certainly did not work 60 hours a week.

My father put in more hours than my mother, but then he was the wrestling coach.  He left around 7 AM, and got home around 5:30.  I never saw him work on the weekends.

Mother left around 8:30, and got back around 5.   She did more grading of papers at home, but it depended on the time of year.  When the kids had gym, she would grade at work.  

Mom was elementary, so she had less time alone.  Father was high school, so he generally only had 4 or 5 class periods a day, and the rest of the time was free.   Which is why I can barely remember 2 or 3 times I ever saw him grading anything at home.  Usually when there was a snow storm, that compressed the schedule.

The real trick is learning how to handle the kids.  If you can learn how to deal with the troublesome kids, and how to maintain order in the class room, then teaching is a breeze.  The worst part is saying the same thing over, and over, and over, and over and over.  Year after year, same thing over and over and over.

If you don't know how to keep the kids on your side, and how to deal with the crazies, and how to keep order in the class... then yeah, it's hellish.  You'll end up a bad rerun of kindergarten cop.

*All of that said....*

The whole reason both my parents retired from teaching, was entirely because they saw that the way things were going, more and more was expected to be taught, and the same amount of time was given for teaching.  Additionally, the load of paperwork required, has been increasing over and over.  Moreover, it was getting harder to remove bad students, which made teaching more difficult.

It is one of the major policies that I completely disagreed with Bush on.  No Child Left behind should never have happened.  Let the states work it out.  It's not the Federals job to fix state schools.


----------



## Skull Pilot (May 1, 2016)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> ...


So it doesn't count right?


----------



## Skull Pilot (May 1, 2016)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



I have no desire to be a teacher but I know several and none of them work that hard maybe you're just not very good at it so it takes you longer


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory (May 1, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



My comment was not addressed to you.

Public education has changed radically since I became a teacher almost 20 years ago.  Your parents taught in a completely different world.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory (May 1, 2016)

Skull Pilot said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



I doubt you know any real teachers, and i doubt that you keep account of their actual working hours. 

The fact is that I actually work less than my colleagues because I am better organized and more experienced, but since you know nothing about the topic, it is impossible for you to understand.


----------



## koshergrl (May 1, 2016)

I have friends who are teachers...one of their kids is sleeping out in the living room now, ha ing spent the night.

That particular friend is a hard, hard worker who wouldn't put up with public school garbage if she didn't truly love working with kids. She works in the summer school so she works all year...and is paid aot extra for it.  She also despairs of the state of our public schools, and those who teach in them. She's the first person I called about the craphead science teacher, because her son is in the same class. 

And you work less than your colleagues because you're lazy and stupid, don't kid yourself.


----------



## Skull Pilot (May 1, 2016)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> ...



Oh "real" teachers?

2 teach public high school chemistry, math and physics
The other teaches English at a private school

And believe me none of them work 60 hours a week and they have more time off than Obama


----------



## Unkotare (May 1, 2016)

Skull Pilot said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...







Believe YOU, of all people? Why the hell would anyone do that?


----------



## initforme (May 1, 2016)

Those who complain about teachers not working hard are clueless hacks.  If it is that lucrative they would have become one.  They tell people not to be jealous of what others have so they should learn to not cry like babies so much.


----------



## rdean (May 1, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> DGS49 said:
> 
> 
> > Finland is not a good example.  With the terrible climate and the extremely short winter days, alcoholism is endemic.
> ...




We know what Republicans think of teachers.  That we have too many.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory (May 1, 2016)

Skull Pilot said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



I'll bet!  You probably are just pulling figures out of your ass from embarrassment at getting called on it.

I spend a minimum of 7-4 each day at work, 5 days a week.  How many hours is that?  It's 45 if you don't have a calculator handy.  Add in about 5 hours grading papers on the weeknights and about 5-6 each weekend, and we are fast approaching 60 hours.  E-mailing parents, attending required after school activities, and additional duties such as supervising students before school, and we are just about there.

BTW, just finished 3 hours of grading papers and it was a light evening.


----------



## Skull Pilot (May 2, 2016)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> ...



Sorry if you're so slow but the bureau of labor statistics factored in slow people like you and the fact is teachers only work about 40 hours a week

Look it up you're a teacher so you should know how but I did post a link earlier if you can't


----------



## Skull Pilot (May 2, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> ...



Like I give a shit if you believe me but I posted a link that supported my claim you didn't


----------



## Unkotare (May 2, 2016)

Skull Pilot said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...





Then don't say "believe me," fool.


----------



## Skull Pilot (May 2, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



Then Believe Sean

BTW I agree with him


----------



## Esmeralda (May 2, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> The first thing to grasp from the Chart, is that as I have said for literally a decade or more, is that we pay teachers TONS of money.   There is only two countries that pay more than we do.   Netherlands and Canada.
> 
> This non-stop drum beat, that we need to shell out more money, is crazy.
> 
> ...


What you fail to take into account is the complexity of US society. Schools and teachers put out far more effort, time, energy, etc., in dealing with social problems rather than focusing on actual academics. Finland, Estonia, Poland, Vietnam and Taiwan are small homogenous societies with few social problems and only one tier of governing for education.  In comparison, the US is a huge, very diverse country with a myriad of social problems and several tiers of governing over educational policies and practices. There is simply no comparison. As well, the cost of living in the US is higher than most of the countries mentioned; salary should go along with cost of living.

Bottom line: you just do not know anything whatsoever about the real issues in American education.


----------



## Esmeralda (May 2, 2016)

Skull Pilot said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...


Most teachers have a great deal of 'homework.'  Preparation, reading, grading papers, etc.  They work more than 8 hours a day on average.


----------



## Esmeralda (May 2, 2016)

Admiral Rockwell Tory said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...


Exactly.  Most people don't want to teach because it is NOT well paid, NOT easy, and teachers in the US get no respect or appreciation for what they do.


----------



## Skull Pilot (May 2, 2016)

Esmeralda said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



Sorry but I linked a post that quoted the bureau of labor statistics saying that on average teachers work about 40 hours a week


----------



## Skull Pilot (May 2, 2016)

Most people want to be teachers because they get


Esmeralda said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...


Most people want to be teachers because they get summers off


----------



## Esmeralda (May 2, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...


What the rich people in foreign countries do is send their kids to English speaking private international schools with very often American curriculum and almost always, whether the curriculum is American, British or International, American teachers. 

If the American school system is failing, it isn't your teachers, who teach droves in international schools around the world alongside British teachers and teachers from other English speaking countries; it is the totally messed up American society that is at fault. You all expect the teachers and the schools to fix all of society's ills. That's what you expect them to do, along with educating your kids.  It's an impossible task.


----------



## Esmeralda (May 2, 2016)

Skull Pilot said:


> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...


They aren't accounting for all the hours of 'homework.'


----------



## Skull Pilot (May 2, 2016)

Esmeralda said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > Esmeralda said:
> ...



That's up to you to prove with something other than your say so
BTW the BLS got their info from teachers it wasn't made up.


----------



## jasonnfree (May 2, 2016)

Teachers - underpaid and under appreciated, since they're expected to work miracles.   I say miracles, since  a teacher has  nothing to say about what goes on in a kid's life once he/she leaves for home every night. Do the parents take an interest in the kid's homework?  Are there parents,  or old granny trying to raise kids who were abandoned.   Do they get good meals at home, or go to school hungry, and the list goes on.  So pay teachers well I say,  even if we have to buy fewer goodies from  lockheed and raytheon to do it.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory (May 2, 2016)

Skull Pilot said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



These are the same people who keep telling us unemployment is going down as business after business folds and others move to Mexico.


----------



## Admiral Rockwell Tory (May 2, 2016)

Skull Pilot said:


> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



Want to bet they used actual paid hours which is often less than 40 hours per week yet failed to include unpaid hours?


----------



## Andylusion (May 13, 2016)

Esmeralda said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > The first thing to grasp from the Chart, is that as I have said for literally a decade or more, is that we pay teachers TONS of money.   There is only two countries that pay more than we do.   Netherlands and Canada.
> ...



Actually that was MY point.    You are making MY point.

The entire debate, when you look at it from the mass media and government perspective, what do they focus on?    Money.    How many times every month do you hear "schools need more money",  "Inner City school can't hire teachers because of money".... and on and on and on.

I've heard this argument a million times.   In fact, the Panama Papers debate on one TV network, the argument was "Every dollar they avoid paying in tax, is a dollar less that goes to the schools".

My point to you, and everyone, is money isn't the problem.  We spend more money than any other country in the world, on K-12 education.   And we have lame results to show for it.

Your post, was dead on right.    That's the problem.

*"Schools and teachers put out far more effort, time, energy, etc., in dealing with social problems rather than focusing on actual academics"*
That's the problem!   

I was reading this report about how broken families, divorce, unwed mothers, and children who grow up with only one parents, routinely and consistently perform poorly in school.

Girls spread their legs for any idiot, then pop out a kid, and somehow we're supposed to fix their children?    Can't be done.  I told this to one lady, and she said "Well Finland has great schools, let's do what they do".   The report about unwed, broken families having un-educatable kids... came from Finland.

When a problem child shows up in Finland... they remove them.  Place them in special lower classes for problem kids.

You think that will play well in US politics?   Let's have Donald Trump say "I have a plan to remove hundreds of thousands of problem children from US schools, and place them in remedial classes"... and watch the **** Storm follow.

My mother had such a child actually.  She came from a broken, shack up, single welfare mother.    Her mother told her this when she came in for "parent teacher conferences".    She couldn't do ANYTHING with this girl.    She sent her to the principals office every week.  Finally she had the child removed from her class.

*The only thing I would add to your comment*, is that teachers also spend too much time teaching about unimportant trivial things.   Save the pandas.   Save the whales.   Protect the Ozone layer.

When I was in elementary school, we had a month long project, on protecting the Ozone layer.   Somewhere at my parents home, is a video of me, doing a report on protecting the ozone layer, at my mothers school.  I went to her class, and did a presentation on protecting the ozone layer.

Let me ask you.... what value did that have on my life?  How much of that was useful to me in adulthood?   Nothing.  Complete waste of time.   The only thing I got out of it, was an example of why public education sucks.  Instead of learning math, science, technology, even basic writing ability.....  I learned that if we didn't stop using air conditioners, the ozone layer would "die" and the sun would fry us all to bacon.     And there's a video of me wasting the time of a bunch of 4th graders with this nonsense.

Why do we waste our students time with black history month?   Then we wonder why they can barely read, can't write, and can't use a calculator, and yet hate white people.    Gee, why are our students not scoring high compared to the rest of the world.  I wonder.


----------



## Andylusion (May 13, 2016)

Esmeralda said:


> Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



It is paid well.  Finland Teachers earn less, even compared with cost of living, to US teachers.   In fact, most countries pay their teachers less.

Yeah, it's not easy.  But what job worth doing, is easy?   Where's that job?

Respect, that's an issue of society.  My parents had high respect for teachers, and so did I.   But when you teach people they are "entitled" to an education.... that's what you get.  I was never taught that I was owed and education.

When you see these idiot students at OWS walking around screaming about their "right to an education", when you see the riots in the UK, with all the students demanding their "rights" to an education....   that attitude didn't start their Senior year in high school.   That started decades ago, when they were in K-12.

Free stuff is never appreciated.  You don't respect, that which costs nothing.   The girl who puts out to every guy, is respected by no guy.  That's why you don't see that attitude in private schools.  Parents who are paying money out of their pocket, to have their kids go to a good school, are not walking around with an entitlement, "I'm owed this" attitude.

The labeling of education as a fundamental right... and the attitude of zero respect for the people who provide education, are tied together.


----------



## Andylusion (May 13, 2016)

rdean said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > DGS49 said:
> ...



I'm not a Republican.   And I didn't vote for Mitt Romney.   And I think he's right.   Having more teachers, just to have more teachers, doesn't mean anything.  That's more left-wing forest Gump level thinking.

I've had several bad teachers in my life.   Really bad.   Even in good schools, there are crappy useless teachers, that thanks to Unions, can't be removed.

This moronic idea that just having more teachers, means we'll have more education, is not true.  That's the argument level of a parrot.  Someone said it, so I'll repeat it, and therefore it must be true.

The fact you are even thinking, or I should say not thinking... is proof our public education system is a failure.

This is like Cuba, and doctors.   Cuba has more "doctors" than most countries in the world.  But their hospitals are terrible, their lack of medication is acute, and the average Cuba get's more help from charity, than the official government health system.    But... they have doctors.   More doctors magically equals better, in left-wing land.


----------



## Esmeralda (May 13, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> > Admiral Rockwell Tory said:
> ...


Education is a fundamental right, just as is health care and public safety. Do you want a country that is full of millions upon millions of ignorant, uneducated people -- illiterates?  Do you want this to be a third world country?

Everyone needs to be educated, not just for themselves but for the country and society in general. Anyone who thinks otherwise ought to spend some real time in a 3rd world country where there is no national education system.


----------



## Andylusion (May 14, 2016)

Esmeralda said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Esmeralda said:
> ...



Well we have this "right" right now, and yet we have people who can't read or write, or do basic math.  So whether you think it is, or is not, doesn't seem to matter does it?

The fact is, we've operated under this concept for a long time, and if you look at the education outcomes, they suck.  One of the reasons why educational standards in the US have fallen dramatically, is because students have the entitlement mentality, and yet you can't teach someone just because they think they are entitled.  So you have to lower standards, to create the illusion that the "right to education" is given.

And by the way, many of the countries that have way better schools system, do not operate under a theory that education is a "right".

Again, take Finland for example.   If you don't make the grade.... you don't get education anymore.  You don't even go to high school, let alone college, if you don't work for it.

High schools have an entrance exam in Finland, like many other countries.  And if you don't pass the entrance exam... you don't go to high school.

Well what about their rights!!  What about my "Right to an education!"??   You lost it.  You don't have a right.   You have the opportunity to pursue an education.  Sure.  We all do.   But if you fail... you are left behind.   

See, what you want is a system where people try as hard as they can, when there are no consequences to not doing so.   And that isn't how human beings work.  People put in effort, when they have to.   In a system without consequences, because "education is a right", the result is people don't try.  They don't take it seriously.

Let me give you an example.    I went to an upper middle class school system.  One of the guys in my class, was actually a fairly intelligent person, but you would never know it from his grades.  We kept asking him what the deal was, and he told all of us very openly that he intentionally wanted to try and get exactly a 65% GPA.   And he did.  Right on the dot.

He goofed off.  Skipped class.  Turned in, and answered exactly as many questions as required to pass.  He did the same thing in high school.  I wager he did the same thing in college.   By the way, I heard through the grape vine, that he now works for the ACLU, which makes sense given he was the biggest left-winger I ever met in person.   Clearly ideology trumps grades and knowledge at the ACLU.  Or maybe he wised up in College, and actually made something of himself.  Who knows.

What's my point?   He knew nothing would happen due to his lazy behavior.   That's what "education is a right" mentality causes.     That doesn't happen in Finland.   Or in private schools here.   Why?  Because if you don't make the grade, you are out.     You don't go to high school.  You don't go to college.   This guy would have never survived in Finland.   Or he would... because he would have tried in a system where education wasn't a right, and there are consequences to not trying.

I used to visit a private school here in Ohio, and I can tell you, that mentality didn't cut it there.  If you didn't work, you were gone.    There was not "right to education" mentality at the private schools, which again, is exactly why they routinely destroy the public schools academically.  

So, while it may seem a good argument that "oh if we didn't' have a right to education, we'd have uneducated people".... well we have a right to education, and we have horribly uneducated people.

If people knew they were not entitled to education, and simply would not get it, if they didn't earn it... I think we'd have far fewer uneducated people, and more people taking learning seriously.


----------



## baileyn45 (Jun 3, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> browsing deer said:
> 
> 
> > Japan is  very aggressive about sports.  Especially swimming and basketball.
> ...


My alma mater spent 1.6 million on a renovation, in Ohio. I'm told it's close to paying for itself. It seats 8000, has room for 2000 standing and has hosted nationally televised high school games. I've even heard they get TV revenue. In addition to football they've had regionally televised lacrosse and soccer games. The feild is the home feild for the high school as well as a nearby catholic high school and is also used for high school/college level lacrosse, soccer, feild hockey and track & feild events. And as you can see the baseball feild ain't bad either. I know a couple of years ago they bragged that they had over 300 seperate events, during football playoffs 2 & 3 games a day with sellout standing room only crowds. For sellout football games I've heard ticket sales can be 50-80k. Try that 3 times a day.

In the long run it will likely be a major positive for the school system. Oh, and you should see the middle school feild looks the same but smaller.

Of course it kills me, I can't tell you how much of the mud under that turf I ate while playing there many moons ago.







Overall it's a good school district, new pool w/diving bay, 1500 seat auditoreum where I saw the Cleveland Orchestra at least once a year and it was home to the Great Lakes Shakespeare Festival for many years(Tom Hanks spent his early years there). Buildings to the right of the baseball feild house vocational training auto, construction etc. They even have culinary arts courses. They used to have a planetarium not sure if it's still there. There are rumors of a coming tie in with the Cleveland Clinic.

OK I'm rambling, perhaps a bit nostalgic, At least in my neck of the woods we still take high school seriously..


----------



## Andylusion (Jun 3, 2016)

baileyn45 said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > browsing deer said:
> ...



Let me first say, that I know you mean well.  I know you generally think this is a good thing.  I am not hating on you, or trying to destroy your rosy views.

However, I have to admit that while reading your post, to me it pointed out in with exact clarity, the problem with education in America today.  And I'm not alone.
5 Brutal Realities Of High School Football (From A Coach)

How many times did you mention academics in your post?   How many times did you mention preparing kids for life?   How many times in your post did you talk about grades, and achievement, and life long success, and what is best for students?

Never.

*"close to paying for itself."*

Is that what school is about?   Making money?   I thought it was about education?

Think about it.... you are having the school make money.... off of unpaid labor.   You are not paying those kids one penny, so that your school officials and employees, and make money off of their hard work.

*"I've even heard they get TV revenue."*

Fantastic.   Wonderful.   Do you have any skills you'd like to show off on TV, so I can make money on broadcasting you?   Wouldn't that be great?  You work hard so, I make millions?    And we talk about slave labor in China?   Look what we're doing to our own children.
*
"In the long run it will likely be a major positive for the school system."*

Well isn't that peachy.   What about the students?

While our students fall consistently behind the rest of the world, we spend more money of public 'education' (which includes these highly educational stadium), than any other country in the world today.

Just last week, I walked with an immigrant from Germany.   He had 4 or 5 children.   All of them.... every single one....  An Engineer.      I know where the Football stars are from my high school.  I order a Whooper from them at the drive through.

Why are we falling behind?   But oh that doesn't matter, because a Stadium will be great for the schools budget.

*Cleveland Orchestra*

Well that's great if your kids expect to be profession orchestra players.

*Great Lakes Shakespeare Festival*

Because so many fortune 500 companies, are hiring Shakespeare cos-play artists.
*
....vocational training auto, construction etc. They even have culinary arts courses.*

Which I support, but none of which has any requirement for a multi-million dollar stadium.

*....Now let me be clear....*

I do not mean to mock everything you have said.   AND... I am all for people engaged in sports if they want to.

My problem is....  School... is supposed to be..... SCHOOL.   The purpose is to teach people so they are ready for life.  And quite frankly we're doing a terrible job of it.   People come out of school, and are not ready for the world.

I've met people who were in 11th grade, who couldn't use a calculator to do a division problem.   But they had a great record on the football team.

And at the same time, you don't seem to grasp the negative consequences of this course of action.   Football couches, who are pressured to get wins, because the school demands a return on their stadium investment, screaming and yelling at kids, because they lost a game.

At the same time, failing students given passing grades, because they need that linebacker for the football game.  Not to mention students performing worse academically because instead of being focused on their work, they are focused on that football game Friday.

Is this really what school is supposed to be about? 

This is a terrible development.  We've become more like Rome, with bread and circuses, taking over growth of the country, and the future of students.


----------



## Wyatt earp (Jun 3, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> browsing deer said:
> 
> 
> > Japan is  very aggressive about sports.  Especially swimming and basketball.
> ...




One: it's Texas 

Two: it's Texas football

Three: the tax payers voted on it.

Four so it's none of your business


----------



## baileyn45 (Jun 3, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> baileyn45 said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...


I understand what you're saying and agree in part but might have to disagree in part. To me the facility is an asset. It has the potential to pump resources into the system. The funny part is that the schools football team isn't particularly good. The revenues from the facility on the other hand are pumped back into the system. This district has over the last 10 yrs rebuilt it's middle schools, over the last 15 yrs it's elementary schools and is currently rebuilding the high school itself.

I guess all I'm saying is that such spending is not necesarily a bad thing. You can imagine the voices raised when this rebuild of the football facilities was proposed. Those same voices are now arguing over how to spend the proceeds. The leading candidate is lab facilities, which supposedly has attracted the attention of the Cleveland Clinic.

From my perspective I'm proud of this system. This is a city that abuts Cleveland. Through the 80s & 90s it saw a bit of a decline as enrollment dropped and corresponding state funds declined. In the early 80s and late 70s it was huge, 4000 students in the building. At that time it was academically recognized nationally. It's on it's way back to excellence.

As far as sports it's about how you utilize such programs. This school uses high school talent on TV cameras, as sports trainers and in media promotion. All real world experience. Personally I value my experiences in sports for what I learned, team building, continual improvement, passing on what you've learned, all have served me well.   

The Shakespeare fastival(which is no longer hosted) is another example of how such programs can have greater benfits. Back in my day the sets were built by the vaocational students. The performances were filmed by the film students.  About 5 years ago I saw a picture of friend who was involved in both. He and Steven Speilberg had their arms around each other laughing. Real world potential.

Don't get me wrong I have a lot of issues with education in this country, but it's a complex issue in a changing world. The football facility has the potential to be an incredible asset if used properly.


----------



## Andylusion (Jun 3, 2016)

bear513 said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > browsing deer said:
> ...



One, don't care.
Two, don't care.
Three, don't care.
Four, don't care.

If "mind your own business" is the response one gets for their opinion on public policy, then you need to shut up, and mind your own business too.

This is a forum on politics.   The entire purpose of the forum is to talk about opinions on the issues.  If that isn't allowed here, then you need SHUT UP... and GET OUT.   Follow your own demands.  Leave.

Practice what you preach brother.  Or stop preaching it.


----------



## Andylusion (Jun 3, 2016)

baileyn45 said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > baileyn45 said:
> ...



Of course you see it as an asset.  And intelligent people can disagree, while being civil.

Here's my problem....  any time you say to me "X is a good thing because it brings in money for education"... which is effectively the argument you have presented here..... all of those arguments fail with me.  Why?

Because the US, has for many years now... several decades in fact.... spent more money on public education, than any other country on the face of this planet.    There is no country, that spends more on public education, than this country.   And it's been that way for several decades.

Yet... we're ranked according to how educated our students compare to international students, about 14th to 20th, depending on the year, and scale used.

There are countries, that spend less than HALF of the money we do, on education, who score higher than the US on any.... ANY measurement we use.

Do you see my problem?    It brings more money into the system... as if that's the goal.    But we already have more money in our system, than any country, any where, has in their system... and yet they are coming out ahead.

When we already outspend everyone.... how is getting even more money... a positive?  Where do you think the pay off is going to be?

That's my issue with this entire deal.   Yeah, I'm sure the stadium is going to bring in money.   That's not positive.

And here is my suggestion.... based on what I have read about the school systems around the world, that are absolutely flogging us academically.....

The reason why they are able to have much better education, at a fraction of the price, is because they are focused on.... EDUCATION.  Not football... and baseball.... and Shakespeare....  and whatever else.   EDUCATION.   No stadiums.  No bleachers, and ticket buying fans.

Now don't get me wrong.   If you really want that, fine.... but I don't want to hear people complaining that companies are hiring overseas talent, and you can't get a job.    Because your boss, doesn't give a crap how many touchdowns you scored, and if you helped build a stage for Steve Spielberg, unless you are a professional stage builder.

And I gotta tell you, from what I've read, building stage props, is not exactly a great career path, unless you plan to move to California, or some place with a big movie industry.  The median wage is $40,000, and that includes Hollywood.  That's country wide.  I don't exactly see a booming stage industry here in Ohio.

By the way.... I have no problem with vocational schools, that specialize in vocational training, and if you want such a school to build props and stages, and so on...  all of that is fine.

My argument to you would be, that should be completely separate from academic schools, where they are training kids on how to do the 80% of the jobs on the planet, that are not vocational.

Again, this is why companies are hiring people from India to do software programming, and engineering work, and chemical work, and industrial design, and on and on and on and on and on and on.... and we keep complaining about it without asking why they have to seek over seas workers to begin with.  Couldn't be because our students are building stages for Shakespeare and playing lacrosse and football, instead of doing academic learning.

That's where my problem is.    Yeah, it's asset.  Yeah it brings in money.   No, assets and money has not helped our students compete with the rest of the world in decades, and I would argue it never will. 

We need to re-think our system and what the end goal is.  If the end goal is to bring in more money... and screw education.... great.  This is wonderful plan.   If the goal is education....  then I would suggest this isn't the best option, and would cite educations system around the world that out perform ours, and don't have massive stadiums, as proof.


----------



## initforme (Jun 5, 2016)

Texas ain't valuing edacashun, but it values football...backwards state.


----------



## Agit8r (Jun 5, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> The first thing to grasp from the Chart, is that as I have said for literally a decade or more, is that we pay teachers TONS of money.



And you've been incorrect all that time.  The "compensation" includes health insurance benefits in the U.S., but not in most developed countries.


----------



## Andylusion (Jun 5, 2016)

Agit8r said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > The first thing to grasp from the Chart, is that as I have said for literally a decade or more, is that we pay teachers TONS of money.
> ...



Name one developing country, that has a fraction as good of health care system as we do?

Free healthcare, sucks.   Not a valid comparison.


----------



## Unkotare (Jun 5, 2016)

initforme said:


> Texas ain't valuing edacashun, but it values football...backwards state.





Upon what do you base your bigotry?


----------



## DGS49 (Jun 5, 2016)

There is no logical connection between education and sports.  If football players spent their spare time studying,  rather than playing that game, more of them would end up graduating from college.

None of the western democracies whose educational outcomes we envy has school sports.  They are a cancer.  If the schools ended this foolishness, amateur sports would survive.  Who knows, maybe the NFL and NBA would stop using our colleges as a free Minor League.


----------



## Unkotare (Jun 5, 2016)

^^^^^^^^ The ignorant speculation of a bitterly arrested adolescent who understands nothing about sports or education in general.


----------



## Unkotare (Jun 5, 2016)

Sport - Sport And Traditional Cultures



A Companion to Ancient Education



Abstract


----------



## Andylusion (Jun 5, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> Sport - Sport And Traditional Cultures
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ok.  First I have a hard time trying to compare present day realities, with the realities of the ancient world.

For example.... the primary method of earning money in the ancient world, was through physical labor.   Obviously, playing physical games, can be a value to future success.   The physical abilities you learn on the field, can and did, directly translate into the real world.

Today that isn't true.   Generally speaking, the value of physical labor is low, compared to the value of mental abilities.  

Granted, if you intend to be hauling junk around in a warehouse, then sports is a great pre-career step.  But, that's not exactly a ton of money.

I actually knew a guy, who was "Mr. Fitness".   He won a bronze at the Arnold Classic here in Ohio.   The guy was about as bright as a wet match, but he was a buff strong guy.  And he worked in the warehouse.  Didn't earn much money.

If that's the goal, go for it.    My argument to you, would be we should have separate schools for such things.   Go to a school for physical labor.    Leave academic teaching to academic schools.

Why?   Because we wasted tons of money educating that guy, so that he could walk around and drive a forklift, and have a cheezy bronze medal around his neck. (which he wore to work for a week).

And like I said, this isn't a shocking thing for me.   The football stars at my high school, are flipping whoops.   There's a reason that stereotype exists, and is funny.   It's true.   Not universally, not 100%, but in general.... it's true!

Chadiha: Life after NFL a struggle for many

Explain this to me.   According to Sports Illustrated, their research showed that 78% of all former athletes end up in difficulty, or bankrupt within 2 years of ending their careers.   

Now if you are suggesting these people are just as educated coming out of the sports programs as any other person... then why don't they get a job?   Why are they unemployed, and some even homeless?

My person experience, and my unprofessional, guy-on-the-street opinion is.... it's because sports was so promoted at colleges, that education fell by the wayside, and was ignored.  Thus after their 'playing games' career was over, they had nothing.

What is your opinion?  Or do you not think that is even a problem?  Or what is your solution?


----------



## Sbiker (Jun 5, 2016)

Ha-ha, Russian point, I think, is hidden behind the graph legend


----------



## Sbiker (Jun 5, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



Have you heared, high school teacher is a monk of science, he must work everytime and free, and as salary he can take money only for poor food and no more...


----------



## Unkotare (Jun 5, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Sport - Sport And Traditional Cultures
> ...




The two are not mutually exclusive, and you speak far too generally.


----------



## Unkotare (Jun 5, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> .....   My argument to you, would be we should have separate schools for such things.   Go to a school for physical labor.    Leave academic teaching to academic schools.....




The fact that you cannot seem to understand that the two are interrelated explains your obtuse attitude.


----------



## Unkotare (Jun 5, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> ..... Generally speaking, the value of physical labor is low, compared to the value of mental abilities.
> 
> Granted, if you intend to be hauling junk around in a warehouse, then sports is a great pre-career step. ....




You sound like a bitter, feeble little thing who never outgrew the frustrations of weakness and a lack of coordination during your youth. If you really don't understand the many, many things that people learn from participation in sports beyond "hauling junk around," then you are remarkably ignorant and/or willfully disingenuous. People thousands and thousands of years ago realized what you don't seem to want to acknowledge.


----------



## Unkotare (Jun 5, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> .....  According to Sports Illustrated, their research showed that 78% of all former athletes end up in difficulty, or bankrupt within 2 years of ending their careers. ....




Former athletes? Or former professional athletes? Do you realize what a minuscule percentage of athletes that represents? 

More than half of all high school students participate in sports. A small percentage of those student athletes go on to play in college. An even smaller percentage than that play at the Div.1 level. A much, much smaller percentage than that go on to play professionally in any sport. The more than half of all high school students who play sports - mostly at that level and no further - learn a hell of a lot more than "hauling junk around" unless they are as dimwitted as you.


----------



## Andylusion (Jun 6, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > .....  According to Sports Illustrated, their research showed that 78% of all former athletes end up in difficulty, or bankrupt within 2 years of ending their careers. ....
> ...



Hey hey hey.... i'm not your enemy bro.     I've been your biggest supporter in many other threads than this.  I don't think I earned that kind of insults from you.  Do you?

You made a good point though.    And while that's true, why is the education system getting worse?

Just again to tell my story.... I went to an inner city school, where a guy asked me how to do a division problem.   Not a long division problem....  But a simple division, like 7 divided by 2.

We were in 11th grade at the time.  Juniors in High School, and he can't do 7 divided by 2.

But it got worse.   When I reached for my pencil and paper.....  he said "no, with this"... and handed me his calculator.

Now.... ..  something has to be wrong.      And no I don't believe that this entire problem is 100% due to sports programs in schools.  (by schools I mean both public, and college).

I do not think "if we just eliminated football, education would magically become perfect".  I am not suggesting that.

But.... it seems to me that the primary focus of schooling has shift over the past decades, away from education, and more towards other things... one of which is sports.

Now I get it, you clearly think the push of sports has nothing to do with it.   But then how do you account for the slide in educational standards?

When you look at tests given to students in the late 1800s, and compare them to today, why has the standard fallen so much?    What is your explanation?

Or do you think there isn't even a problem?  That's a valid opinion.  Some people hold that.    I think there is obviously.  Do you?


----------



## Andylusion (Jun 6, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > .....   My argument to you, would be we should have separate schools for such things.   Go to a school for physical labor.    Leave academic teaching to academic schools.....
> ...



So your opinion is that playing games... and academic success, are interrelated.

That's an interesting suggestion.  Could be true.  I'll admit I haven't looked into that at all.

Um... just thinking back on the smartest people I know.... the class valedictorian in all 4 years I was there, and the smartest people beyond them.... I can't think of a single one that was involved in football, or lacrosse.   One was a runner on the track team, and a couple were in orchestra.   One was in band.

But that's obviously a limited sample size of a few dozens students out of 1,500 per year, for 4 years at the high school I went to.

So you could be right.  I don't know.  I certainly haven't seen that in my own experience, but that's just me obviously.   The last football player I met, was spreading mulch around my Condo.


----------



## Sbiker (Jun 6, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...



Sport didn't disturb to Pythagorus or Euclid to advance world mathematics level 



> When you look at tests given to students in the late 1800s, and compare them to today, why has the standard fallen so much?    What is your explanation?



 Today no one knows, how is right to teach. Information environment of a people changed fast and radically, and still changing. Do the students need to keep in mind a tons of poems, if they can find everything they want to hear through a simple phone? Do they need to make a sophisticated calculations, if computer can do it much more faster? Or they only need to improve "true human abilities", which still cannot be programmed or formalized?


----------



## Unkotare (Jun 6, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> ... . why is the education system getting worse?
> 
> ...




Is it?


----------



## Unkotare (Jun 6, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> ...
> 
> Just again to tell my story.... I went to an inner city school, where a guy asked me how to do a division problem.   Not a long division problem....  But a simple division, like 7 divided by 2.
> 
> ...




And you assumed that this reflected something larger than that one kid being a moron who had managed to coast through without learning much?


----------



## Unkotare (Jun 6, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> ....  And no I don't believe that this entire problem is 100% due to sports programs in schools.  ....




What makes you think it was due even 1% to sports?


----------



## Unkotare (Jun 6, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> ...... it seems to me that the primary focus of schooling has shift over the past decades, away from education, and more towards other things... ....




Why does it seem that way to you?


----------



## Andylusion (Jun 7, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...



I find it difficult to believe that any kid can somehow managed to 'coast through' 11 years of schooling, and no one noticed he couldn't work 7 divide by 2 on a calculator.   That should have been picked up by 5th grade at the latest.

Moreover, it wasn't that one kid either.  It was at a minimum, half the class.   I was one of 3 or 4 "go to" people when they couldn't answer the questions.  Yeah, the kid who couldn't work the calculator, was clearly the most egregious example of ignorance displayed while I was there, but it wasn't even close to the sole example.  Many of the kids couldn't write... at least not intelligently.  While most could read, they were at best a middle school level of reading.  I would guess that most would have a difficult time with a menu at any sit-down restaurant.   And math was bafflingly bad throughout the class.

And the irony is, I was a C+ students.   In my home school in the suburbs, I was the very last person you would ask for help on school work.   But at the other school, I was the equivalent of valedictorian.

Of course my home school, only housed a 1,000+ kids.  While the Columbus Public runs 100,000 kids a year.

So the ratio of educated to idiots, is not in our favor.

Now, I don't know how you can possibly get a person without the ability to do the simplest of math problems, to the 11th grade, and not see a systemic problem.   I find it difficult to have someone reach 11th grade without the ability to even work a calculator, and consider it a black swan.
*
Why does it seem that way to you?*

Well....  first because both my parents were public school teachers for 40 years.   They have said as much.   But that's not much to go on.

What I find just as convincing, is you can lookup old education tests given in the late 1800s, and compare them to tests given today.   The tests given in the 1890s for 8th grade students, would now be considered high school and college level tests.

Another example would be from Thomas Sowell's book A Personal Odyssey, where he talks about wide spread educational fraud, and students passed, from either cheating or social promotion.

When I was in high school, even in my suburban school, the head football coach was, while being great at football, absolutely useless as a teacher.    His methods of 'teaching' were notorious throughout the school.  He would come in, put a VCR tape in, hit play, and then sleep, or read, or do other things.   The class would sit there watching the tape, and after 30 minutes of the 45 minute class time, he would hand out a questionnaire, which you would fill out, and that was 'teaching' in his class.

He did this literally for decades, until he was caught seducing an under-age girl, and fired.

*What makes you think it was due even 1% to sports?*

Well that is the question.    And you are right to ask.

What it boils down to is, as my answers to your prior questions suggest, I see a major problem in American Education.    So there must be some reason, or reason(S), why education is failing.

And the most simple answer, is that of time.    I know you are well educated yourself, and I wager you know the concept in economics called "Opportunity Cost".

Whatever time you spending doing X, is time you can't spend doing Y.   What time you spend playing video games, you can't spend learning a skill that advanced your career.  What time you spend traveling, is time you can't spending working.     The hour I spend here responding to forum posts, is an hour I can't spend earning money at a job.

Well the same must logically apply to education.   Every hour you spend running on the track, working out in weight training, learning plays, and practicing passes, must by the constraints of time, by not spent doing homework, learning math, and acquiring knowledge.

Now that isn't to say that there are no 'life lessons' to be learned in some sports activities, that are valuable.    There are for sure.   Learning teamwork is immensely valuable.  Sharing.  Learning to get along with people for a common goal.  How to be humble.  Anyone in a team sport, that thinks they are all that matters, will quickly find out how insignificant they are, when the team doesn't work for them.  Equally people on a team learn that helping others to achieve their goals, is a great way to achieve their own goals.

And those are all valuable to learn.  The question there is, is public schools where you should learn that?   You could join any sporting activity and learn these things, without spending public school time, and dollars for such a purpose.

My view is, schools should be singularly focused on the task of academic education.  I realize that is a minority opinion, but then that's why we see the drop in academic outcomes.

I think an analogy would be a swiss army knife.   We are trying to make schools into institutions that do everything, and as a result are good at nothing.   The swiss army knife has a spoon, that isn't good as a spoon, and a knife that isn't good as a knife.

If you want a good knife, buy a real knife.  If you want a good spoon, buy a real spoon.  Schools should be primarily and specifically focused on schooling.   Have other organizations do sports.... and band... and chess clubs... and so on.


----------



## Unkotare (Jun 7, 2016)

Comparing tests from the 1800s is highly irrational. Talk about apples and oranges....


----------



## Unkotare (Jun 7, 2016)

Sports have always been a part of education in the US, so it makes no sense to look there for a variable. Look for things that have changed, not things that haven't.


----------



## iamwhatiseem (Jun 7, 2016)

Some thoughts....first sports.
  My son swam in High School and Middle School. I can say without the slightest hesitation that the discipline, dedication and work ethics he learned and developed swimming has done more for the success he has in college and an already growing career and he hasn't even graduated college yet! 
As well as just how much better of a person he is because of his participation as a swimmer. He was a 3 time all state swimmer...his average day during a season that was almost the whole school year was arrive at school at 6:30am...and leave at 6:30pm.  5 days a week. Plus meets on Saturdays.
   People all the time say how horrible that is, unfair, crazy....bullshit. While 9/10 of his peers are whining about everything they can think of on campus and off campus...playing video games 3-4 hours a day - my son does three 12 hour clinicals plus class, plus homework...and does it very well.

  Most of the classes in High School have almost zero affect on how well you do in college, and certainly in life. The character development in playing sports absolutely does.


----------



## iamwhatiseem (Jun 7, 2016)

And another thing....just look at the statistics of how much better high school athletes do in their careers than non-athletes. They do better in college, they get better jobs and they earn more and advance more in those jobs.


----------



## BuckToothMoron (Jun 7, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> The first thing to grasp from the Chart, is that as I have said for literally a decade or more, is that we pay teachers TONS of money.   There is only two countries that pay more than we do.   Netherlands and Canada.
> 
> This non-stop drum beat, that we need to shell out more money, is crazy.
> 
> ...



I would be caution in drawing to many broad assumptions from this one chart. 

Consider- the US is the largest country by population on the chart, and also one of the most diverse in race, and culture. Most people would assume that having these types of diversities makes effective education more difficult. US also educates many more people and has had a large numbers of immigrants over the last decade.

A Record-Setting Decade of Immigration: 2000-2010


----------



## BuckToothMoron (Jun 7, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> browsing deer said:
> 
> 
> > Japan is  very aggressive about sports.  Especially swimming and basketball.
> ...



I doubt that a country as large as the US (320 mil) compared to Japan which is less than a 1/3 the size, and with a much more ethnically  diverse population, will ever be able to produce an education system that is effective as Japan's. It's not a fair comparison.


----------



## Unkotare (Jun 7, 2016)

For many students, fitting sports into their schedule forces them to develop time management skills that help make them better students.


----------



## Andylusion (Jun 11, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> Comparing tests from the 1800s is highly irrational. Talk about apples and oranges....



Really?   Based on what do you make that claim?   Are you suggesting that doing basic math answers are fundamentally different?

Or that geography is different?  

Is the answer for what is a verb, different today?

What is different is only that students of the same grade level, wouldn't be able to answer those questions today.


----------



## Unkotare (Jun 11, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Comparing tests from the 1800s is highly irrational. Talk about apples and oranges....
> ...





Really. The first compulsory education law in the US wasn't passed until 1852 in Massachusetts. I'm going to pay you the compliment of hoping you can figure out the rest. Don't disappoint me.


----------



## Andylusion (Jun 11, 2016)

iamwhatiseem said:


> And another thing....just look at the statistics of how much better high school athletes do in their careers than non-athletes. They do better in college, they get better jobs and they earn more and advance more in those jobs.



So I'm curious about this.
Athletics vs. Academics

How do you explain this?

Mary Willingham’s stunning charges that 60 percent of the University of North Carolina’s (UNC) football and basketball players read below the 8th grade level, and eight percent to 10 percent read at or below a third grade level, have reignited questions and controversies, not only around North Carolina’s beleaguered efforts to restore its academic reputation, but about college athletics more generally. Although some members of the UNC community have questioned Willingham’s data, there is no denying the fraught relationship between big-time college athletics and colleges’ academic mission.​
Are we to assume that somehow between high school and college, the high school athletes move on to degrees, and in college all that is left is the brainless idiots?   What is going on there?

Why Student Athletes Continue To Fail

He wrote that he’d gone to Ohio State to play football, not “to play school,” and that classes were pointless.​
This is what I see all the time.   Constantly.  That does not mean what I am seeing is right.... it might be wrong.  But I keep reading this stuff, and it doesn't show me much in the way of good news.

Now is there support for your argument?  Sure.   A little.

Why team sports really do improve grades: Link between self-esteem and better performance in the classroom

Slight improvement on grade point average.   But it's slight.  Do they finish high school at a higher rate?  Yes.   Neither is surprising.  Football stars want to play football.  Can't do that if you drop out.   Not a shock.

Plus, in general people who hate school, and have no interest in being there, are both more likely to drop out, and more likely to not be on the football team.   I would cite myself as an example.   I hated school, and I hated high school activities.   I never dropped out, but inherently few people hate school, but love doing school activities.  This is not shocking either.

Moreover, we have numerous examples of students that had their grades adjusted up, so they could stay on the football teams, which also automatically means they are less likely to flunk, or drop out.   Again, nothing surprising there.

People Who Played High-School Sports Make More Money and Get Better Jobs

Now on this one, it suggests that high school athletes do better in their long term careers.   But again.... the difference is extremely small.  4 percentage points is not exactly earth shattering.

Now I want to repost, what I said before.   I never suggested to you that I was against sports.   I'm not.   I want to end school based sports.  That's true.     But that is not the same as being against sports.

Here is my argument.   Let us even pretend for the sake of simplicity, that the article I just posted above, is absolutely true.   Now I find that difficult... but let's just roll with it.   You are right, and the article shows that there is a professional career boast to being in sports.....

1...   Do you think that this career boast would exist if they played in a....  $200,000 Stadium instead of a $70 Million dollar stadium?

I think so.   If there is all the benefits you suggest, then I would wager those benefits can be had, without blowing $70 Million dollars on a stadium.

2...  Do you think that this career boast would exist if they played in a....  Non-school funded sports program?

I think so.   In fact if you read that article I posted, they say exactly as much.

In Germany, where some youth sports don’t exist in an academic context, being an athlete still was associated with higher earnings down the line, which suggests some of the same dynamics might be at work even when sports are decoupled from school.​
Do you see?     Even where sports are decoupled from schools, where schools are not funding sports, not administering sports, and not blowing $70 million on stadiums for sports.....  they still found that people who joined non-school-based sports programs showed higher earnings.

And that is my point.    In fact I know I read that Germany didn't have school based sports years ago, I'm glad this article reminded me of it.

And I would once again, suggest this is why US students test scores, are 25th in math, and 17th in science, while Germany is 10th and 9th respectively.

Their schools are focused on...... schooling.  Not playing sports.  Now I'm not suggesting they don't play sports.  They do... just not at school.  School is for schooling.  

And by the way, this is one change of many I'd suggest.  I'm not suggesting separating sports would fix everything.


----------



## Andylusion (Jun 11, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



I'm afraid I'm going to disappoint, because I already specifically said 1890s.  So that would be 40 years after.

But even so....  I still don't see what relevance that has.   The tests I was looking at, was the 8th grade final tests.   These are the tests that students were expected to pass, or they didn't go to 9th grade.  They didn't go to high school.    The questions on this test were pretty basic math, reading and writing questions.   Fairly basic geography questions.

But today those questions would be found at 11th or 12th grade.  Not 8th.

Interestingly, I did get a chance to go to a private school, not as a student, but through a program.   And I was curious what the 8th grade students at this school were learning.  Ironically it was exactly the same material I was learning in my upper-middle class school in 12th grade. 

So it would seem that the learning standards of public schools in the 1890s, is the same as private schools today... or similar.  Where as the average public school has fallen back about 4 years.


----------



## Andylusion (Jun 11, 2016)

BuckToothMoron said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > browsing deer said:
> ...



Well first off, we are supposed to be a republic.  Each state should be taking care of it's own education program, which would mean the largest state is only 38 Million.  I think that is manageable.

Now as we move more towards being a dictatorship from Washington, then yes, I would agree.  If we end up giving the Federal Government sole responsibility for nation wide education, then yeah, that won't be manageable.

Second, there are several countries that are in fact ethnically diverse, and yet have better education systems.  Canada is a great example.  High ethnic diversity, religious and language differences.  But they score extremely high education way.

So I would disagree with you, if you mean that it isn't possible for the US to have a great education system.  Because we did.   I firmly believe that.

On the other hand, if you would argue that the US will not choose to have a good education system, then I agree.

The solution to education is going to be to reverse the direction of the entire system for the last 50 years.  And both students, and teacher, and special interest groups, and those in government, are going to oppose it at every possible turn.

We see that in Chile right now.   By any educational measurement, Chile has the best education system in all of Latin America.   In fact, Chile has students come from all over Latin America to get education in Chile.  And yet, the public is rioting and protesting their system.   Because it works.   They would rather be dumb.

And I see the same problem here in America.


----------



## Unkotare (Jun 11, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...




 You certainly do disappoint. Are you trying to prove your own point about poor education by using yourself as an example? 

In the 1890s, compulsory education laws were not even on the books in all of the 42 states, to say nothing of universal enforcement. How do you think student enrollment then compares to today? How do the two periods compare in terms of student populations, variety of needs, courses offered, record-keeping? How do you think students with special needs were treated back then? You are basically proposing to compare the top 1% of students at Cambridge Rindge and Latin School with every student in every public school in the nation today. I didn't want to think you were this stupid, but apparently you are.


----------



## Andylusion (Jun 11, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



YES DUDE YES!    I am a product of public education!    Yes.  I made it through.   What does that tell you?
Worse, I know people a fraction as smart as me, that also made it though.   Scary!  

Man I could tell you some crazy stories man.  There was this ditzy blonde girl....  'duh'... like super 'duh'....   AND SHE PASSED!.   Yeah, man, I am most definitely using myself as the perfect example.

First your argument doesn't apply.  The test I was looking at was Kansas 1895, and Kansas had compulsory education by 1874.  So that failed.

What is even more funny, is that you seem to be making my point.

First, why should you need a wider variety of courses offered at 8th grade?   That is one of my arguments, is that we shouldn't.   Especially in the early grades, students should be focused on fundamentals.  They can learn about Pandas and saving the whales outside of school.

Variety of needs... are there kids that don't need math?  Don't need English?  What other needs, should we be catering up to 8th grade, to replace those fundamentals?

I mean your basic argument, is exactly my argument.   We had to lower standards to allow more people to pass.  We have to lower standards to accommodate these "student populations, variety of needs, courses offered, record-keeping".

That's the exact opposite of what we should do.  Take Finland, and many other countries.... they don't lower standards to accommodate students.  You either keep up, or you get out.  They remove you.  In most of these countries, if you don't pass an entrance exam to high school... you don't even go to high school.


----------



## Unkotare (Jun 11, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> .... The test I was looking at was Kansas 1895, and Kansas had compulsory education by 1874. .....




Through the 1800s, most Kansans did not attend school past the 8th grade. You are trying to compare an elite cadre of the wealthiest, most privileged with the entire public school system today. Does not hold water.


----------



## Unkotare (Jun 11, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> ......
> 
> First, why should you need a wider variety of courses offered at 8th grade?   ......




Because the country, the economy, and the world changes over time.


----------



## Unkotare (Jun 11, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> ....
> 
> Variety of needs... .....




Yes, we accommodate students today with a variety of physical and mental needs that would never have had access to an education in the 1800s, if they survived at all.


----------



## Unkotare (Jun 11, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> ..... Take Finland, and many other countries.... they don't lower standards to accommodate students.  You either keep up, or you get out.  They remove you.  In most of these countries, if you don't pass an entrance exam to high school... you don't even go to high school.




In my country we have compulsory education laws in all 50 states. Look up "compulsory."


----------



## BuckToothMoron (Jun 13, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> BuckToothMoron said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...



I concur that education should be left up to the states. It won't happen without the repeal f the 17th Amendment.


----------



## Andylusion (Jun 14, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > ......
> ...



I disagree.  Completely.   100%. Could not possibly disagree with that more.

We're talking the fundamentals here.  Basic reading.  Basic writing.  Basic math.

I don't care what job you do, in any field, in any career, anywhere.... you need these basics.  Simple math.  The ability to understand what is written, and the ability to write legibly so other people can understand you.

When I was hired on as a manager of a project, I would track down and find people who had excellent hand writing, and tell them that I appreciated it.    Why?   Because it's like finding a unicorn now.   People can't use proper punctuation.  Some can't even put a period at the end of a sentence.   Others spell so badly, every message from them is like feeding hieroglyphs into babelfish, and expecting to get a coherent conversation out of it.

And then the math.  The simplest things.  Doing count cycles in the stock room, with a guy who can't add.   Cycle count takes an entire extra day of work, because we have to re-count everything he did, because it was all wrong. 

And then you wonder why people like that never get promoted?

Here's Bob.  He's been to college for a dozen remedial courses, has a high school diploma, and can't be trusted with anything involving numbers, and any paperwork he turns in will be indecipherable gibberish.   But he can almost speak French, passed a class on 'life management', can make a bird feeder out of spare wood, and has an A+ in British Poetic History.

Does Bob get the promotion?  No.   Why?  Because poetic history, spare wood working, and 'life management' doesn't get you a job.   What gets you a job is the ability to do the work.  Can you read?  Can you write?   Can you do math?

If you have those fundamentals, you can work your way up almost any corporate ladder.  You can work at McDonalds, and end up owning the whole store, if you can do those things, because management skills can be taught.   But no company is going to pay to have you learn how to add up your revenues, and subtract your expenses.  No company that I know of, will pay to have you learn how to write an email, so you can communicate with your co-workers without causing them to down entire 500 pill bottles of aspirin every time they have to figure out your crossword puzzle messages.

That MUST be done in the K-12 level schooling, and the fact is.... it's not.  Just saying.


----------



## Andylusion (Jun 14, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > ....
> ...



And I don't think we should.    Again, I cited Finland.  If you have physical or mental needs, you are booted out.   You go to specials schools for that.    Public schools should not be trying to make Einsteins out of Forest Gumps.

And when you try and do that, the teacher simply can't teach the class, while holding hands with kids that have problems.   Even if your kid is just unruly, he should be booted out.   Again, I cite my own experience.  I can remember classes where the teacher spent the entire class time dealing with one kid who simply wouldn't mind his work.    Now at that time, I thought it was great because we all know that the teacher couldn't test us on stuff she didn't have time to teach.  Made our lives easier in the moment.

But of course looking back, we were not getting educated.


----------



## Unkotare (Jun 14, 2016)

Sounds like you want to live in Finland 200 years ago. Good luck with that.


----------



## DGS49 (Jun 16, 2016)

The overriding and unspoken issue here is the pressing need for merit and aptitude-based policies, and a willingness to accept the results of those policies.

European countries - like Finland - have populations that are ethnically uniform, have a strong cultural work ethic and value education highly, and - to be blunt - have relatively high average IQ's.  The US is dramatically different and no matter what we do we are not going to see them same sorts of results - looking broadly at the entire spectrum of students.

Our schools are all over the lot.  And yet we want to think of our schools like factories where the raw materials are fed in, and the products are all uniform and acceptable when they come out.

Intelligent and talented kids should be taught differently from dim-witted, lazy kids.  Putting them all together in the same classroom is sacrificing the potential of the most capable students to our desire to be "inclusive" and not to make the dummies feel badly about themselves.

Fortunately or not, any merit-based system is going to result in the people at the top of the spectrum having demographic characteristics that make our "leaders" very uncomfortable.  There are going to be a lot of Asians, Jews, Indians, and white kids of northern European ancestry, and very few African Americans and Hispanics.  And that phenomenon will NOT be the result of "discrimination," "exclusion," or "white privilege."  It will simply be the cream rising to the top.

And by the by, academic "inequality" will increase, generation after generation, once these measures are adopted.  As it should.


----------



## Andylusion (Jun 16, 2016)

DGS49 said:


> The overriding and unspoken issue here is the pressing need for merit and aptitude-based policies, and a willingness to accept the results of those policies.
> 
> European countries - like Finland - have populations that are ethnically uniform, have a strong cultural work ethic and value education highly, and - to be blunt - have relatively high average IQ's.  The US is dramatically different and no matter what we do we are not going to see them same sorts of results - looking broadly at the entire spectrum of students.
> 
> ...



Nice to see a thoughtful response.   I agree with nearly everything.

The one thing I do question is the IQ.  I don't think that matters nearly as much as people claim.   People are smarter, when they are willing to put in the effort to exercise their minds.   I'm reminded of Thomas Sowell, who said he was exceptional at math when he was first in high school.   But after his family break down, and he was working a job to have food to eat, he was forced to stay out of school for a couple of years.   When Sowell went back to school, he found he had lost the skills in math he used to have.  That's why he went into economics instead.

When people don't use their minds, they lose their minds.  Not like crazy, padded room, but if you don't use your abilities in critical logical thinking, or mathematical thinking, then you tend to lose those abilities, just like if you stop playing basketball, you tend to lose your ability to hit the hoop.

So when you say "well let's face it, they have higher IQs", I honestly believe that could be the results of the system they have.

You either make the grade, or you don't go to school.   In our system, no child left behind, means no matter what your grade, you still go to school... and the students know this.

Again, I said this before, I knew a guy in high school, who said openly he did as little as possible, just enough to get a passing grade.  Because he knew that as long as he passed, even if it was by one single point, it didn't matter.  

That doesn't happen in places like Finland, or Estonia, or most of Europe, because if you get a crappy grade, you go to a crappy high school, and if you get a crappy grade there, you go to a crappy college.    The incentives are, you want to do your absolute best, so you can get to a better school.

In our system, you are entitled, no matter how good or bad you do.

I would wager that if you put in place system similar to that of Europe, we would end up with people 'magically' having higher IQs.  Because the incentives to work hard, would result in more people working their minds, and thus being able to.

Do you think every single rich person who has children, all magically are high IQ?   I don't think so.    Yet they all send their kids to private schools, and somehow they all end up being very smart.   Why is that?   I would suggest it's because those private schools, if you don't keep your grades up, you don't go there anymore.   Creating an incentive for students to work hard, and thus magically have a higher IQ.


----------



## DGS49 (Jun 16, 2016)

IT IS what it is, and not much can change it.

When Operation Head Start was first proposed, it was sold  on the basis that the reason why inner city kids do poorly in school is because their preschool experience is culturally deficient.  But 40 years later, we know that by third grade there I s no difference in performance between those who went through OH and those who did not.


----------



## Andylusion (Jun 17, 2016)

DGS49 said:


> IT IS what it is, and not much can change it.
> 
> When Operation Head Start was first proposed, it was sold  on the basis that the reason why inner city kids do poorly in school is because their preschool experience is culturally deficient.  But 40 years later, we know that by third grade there I s no difference in performance between those who went through OH and those who did not.



Ok, but I would still argue that Operation Head Start failed to deal with the real issue.... the real issue being that there is no need to work harder.  There is no consequence for being last in the class.  There is no incentive for being first in the class.

Why Catholic Schools Spell Success For America's Inner-CityChildren

Here's my example....   Take Catholic schools in inner city New York.  75% to 90% varying on year, are black and Hispanic.

And yet..... Catholic schools graduate 95% of their class, while only 50% of public schools graduate.

Over 66 percent of the Catholic school graduates received the New York State Regents diploma to signify completion of an academically demanding college preparatory curriculum, while only about 5 percent of the public school students received this distinction.

That's huge.   Why the difference?    This is from a local Catholic high school student handbook.






And notice that........  Athletics and extra-curricular activities may only be attended after the completion of mandatory study.  Huh.... School.... is for schooling.     Funny, almost like what I've been talking about half this thread.

But back to my point with you....  same kids.  Same area.  Same ethnic group.  95% graduation rate.  Instead of 50%.

Now it got cut off (from the limitations of my screen size), but it goes on to say any violation of the contract... and you are dismissed from the school. And you only have one quarter to bring your grades up, or you are dismissed from the school.

But the incentives man.... you either do your work, or you don't go to school anymore.   Magically they are able to do the work.   Is it because their IQs all by the power of the Pope, doubled?  Of course not.

Incentives.  I really honestly believe that is the key.   No amount of Head Start is going to do jack, when the public school system itself is the cause of the problem.   You move these same kids to a school where you either shape up, or ship out... and they shape up.   I have been convinced by the evidence, that this is the key.   *shrug*.


----------



## Markle (Jun 20, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> browsing deer said:
> 
> 
> > Japan is  very aggressive about sports.  Especially swimming and basketball.
> ...



You seem to have intentionally skipped a couple of minor details.  Which, of course, is not surprising.

First, it was the citizens in the area  that VOTED TO TAX THEMSELVES to build the stadium.

Second, the stadium is shared by several different high schools.

Third, the stadium is designed to serve different sports.

The REAL issue with the stadium is that it opened in 2012.  Since then it has begun CRACKING and is closed for the coming season.  That was in 2014.  I don't know that status today.


----------



## Andylusion (Jun 20, 2016)

Markle said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > browsing deer said:
> ...



The point of this thread is about why our schools are not doing as well as other countries which spend a fraction as much on education as we do.

So I'm confused.....   how is that relevant?

If we all vote.... to be stupid....  does that make 'stupid' a good idea?

The reason I skipped over the fact that they voted for the stadium, is because it's not relevant.

Yes, they voted to tax themselves.   Great.    Does that mean that building a stadium is less dumb?  Or automatically wise?

Why are our students falling behind the rest of the world, when we spend more money on education than any other country on this planet?

I think part of the answer is because we blow money, and time, and effort, and our kids......... on sports.   This multi-milllion dollar sports stadium... is just the latest example of us having our priories on something dumb, instead of education.


----------



## Unkotare (Jun 21, 2016)

Sports are a positive aspect of education. Some people apparently don't understand either.


----------



## OldLady (Jun 21, 2016)

Andylusion said:


> DGS49 said:
> 
> 
> > IT IS what it is, and not much can change it.
> ...


Part of the reason Catholic school students perform better is because they come from families that value education enough to pay tuition to send their children to a good school.  Yes, standards and the ability to kick out students who do not conform are part of the mix, but I believe a good part of it is the home environment.


----------



## mgh80 (Jun 21, 2016)

OldLady said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > DGS49 said:
> ...



Those parents have resources than others do. I'd love to see non-teachers sit in a classroom full of students from high levels of poverty, in gangs, deal drugs, etc. and see how "successful" they will become compared to Catholic school teachers.


----------



## Unkotare (Jun 21, 2016)

mgh80 said:


> ...
> 
> I'd love to see non-teachers sit in a classroom full of students from high levels of poverty, in gangs, deal drugs, etc. and see how "successful" they will become ....


----------



## mgh80 (Jun 21, 2016)

OldLady said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > DGS49 said:
> ...



Over the years there are a few things that I've noticed will determine how successful students are in school:

-Attendance
-Self-discipline
-Families that stress the value of an education

Students that lack any of these are most likely to fail their classes.


----------



## Andylusion (Jun 21, 2016)

OldLady said:


> Andylusion said:
> 
> 
> > DGS49 said:
> ...



Well yeah.  Of course.  That's kind of my point.  People who have "skin in the game" tend to do better, if for no other reasons than "I'm paying for this, so I want my monies worth".

That's part of the 'incentives' I've been talking about.



mgh80 said:


> OldLady said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...



Then you should read the link I provided above.  Most of the students were from high levels of poverty, and drugs are a problem.  But the school rule is, you are found with drugs, you are out.   As a result people are less tempted by drugs (there's no peer pressure because there are no drug using peers), and those on drugs are removed.

If we cleaned up the schools, the schools would be cleaned up.  That's deep, right?

That's my whole point.  We need to end the entitlement belief system.  You are not entitled to an education.  You must earn an education.  You earn it by staying clean, staying out of gangs, studying and keeping your grades up.

Which no one does in our schools, because they are "entitled".


----------



## Andylusion (Jun 21, 2016)

mgh80 said:


> OldLady said:
> 
> 
> > Andylusion said:
> ...



Great.  What would you suggest we change, to make those qualities more present in our currently failing school systems?


----------



## DGS49 (Jun 23, 2016)

When I grew up (several generations ago), the parochial schools (i.e., Catholic schools) in Pittsburgh were superior in every way to the public schools (based on standardized test scores), although of course, some brilliant kids graduated from the mediocre Pittsburgh Public Schools.  In fact, one of them, called "Taylor Alderdice" was as good as any private school until it was "integrated."

But the two most important reason why the parochial schools were better were (1) in-class discipline, and (2) the ability to expel disruptive students.

The worst thing that happens in many inner-city schools is the artificial suppression of disciplinary action so as not to appear "racist," and campaigns to encourage kids who want to be elsewhere to "stay in school."


----------

