# James Madison thought we should live by the ten commandments



## ihopehefails (Mar 17, 2010)

Apparently James Madison did not believe that our civilization was to be held together by laws but by religion and the ten commandments.   



> "To preserve the Republic, it is in the hands of the people. We have staked the whole future of American civilization not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government; upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments" James Madison


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## Modbert (Mar 17, 2010)

Link?


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## tigerbob (Mar 17, 2010)

ihopehefails said:


> Apparently James Madison did not believe that our civilization was to be held together by laws but by religion and the ten commandments.
> 
> 
> 
> > "To preserve the Republic, it is in the hands of the people. We have staked the whole future of American civilization not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government; upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments" James Madison



That's nice for him.


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## &#9773;proletarian&#9773; (Mar 17, 2010)

ihopehefails said:


> Apparently James Madison did not believe that our civilization was to be held together by laws but by religion and the ten commandments.
> 
> 
> 
> > "To preserve the Republic, it is in the hands of the people. We have staked the whole future of American civilization not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government; upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments" James Madison




Someone tell Adams!


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## Modbert (Mar 17, 2010)

&#9773;proletarian&#9773;;2106483 said:
			
		

> Someone tell Adams!



Or Jefferson.

Not sure if Ihope would like him too much. After all, he crossed out whatever he didn't like in his bible.


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## Coyote (Mar 17, 2010)

ihopehefails said:


> Apparently James Madison did not believe that our civilization was to be held together by laws but by religion and the ten commandments.
> 
> 
> 
> > "To preserve the Republic, it is in the hands of the people. We have staked the whole future of American civilization not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government; upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments" James Madison



Too bad...we seem to keep messing up on the "though shalt not kill" part...


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## Modbert (Mar 17, 2010)

Maybe Ihope is a communist?

After all, he doesn't want people to commit adultery, which means he's for legalizing the behavior of others.

He's agreeing that people shouldn't work on the sabbath or be killed, so he's for the government controlling the work force.

He's against coveting neighbor's goods, so it's clearly obvious he's against capitalism.



This explains everything! He goes after what he considers communists as to not draw suspicion upon himself!


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## Coyote (Mar 17, 2010)

Dogbert said:


> Maybe Ihope is a communist?
> 
> After all, he doesn't want people to commit adultery, which means he's for legalizing the behavior of others.
> 
> ...



He must be anti-war too....maybe he's Code Pink Incognito?


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## Mr Natural (Mar 17, 2010)

He was wrong.


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## rikules (Mar 17, 2010)

ihopehefails said:


> Apparently James Madison did not believe that our civilization was to be held together by laws but by religion and the ten commandments.
> 
> 
> 
> > "To preserve the Republic, it is in the hands of the people. We have staked the whole future of American civilization not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government; upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments" James Madison



madison was wrong.

you continue to offer up our forefathers and your religion as being the best of all standards.

but they are NOT.

both our forefathers and your religion have flaws

and made mistakes

our forefathers were wrong to legalize slavery

even though their christian bible  promotes and defends slavery

they were wrong to deny women and non-property owners the right to vote

they were wrong about sex and women and gays and blacks

and your bible was just as flawed, just as wrong, about these same things.


any of our forefathers who hold that the 10 commandments should the standard by which all Amercans live is wrong

first and foremost, MOST of the 10 commandments are unconstitutional

1. You shall not worship any other god but YHWH. unconstitutional

2. You shall not make a graven image. unconstitutional

3. You shall not take the name of YHWH in vain. unconstitutional

4. You shall not break the Sabbath. unconstitutional

5. You shall not dishonor your parents. unconstitutional

6. You shall not murder. 

7. You shall not commit adultery unconstitutional

8. You shall not steal. 

9. You shall not commit perjury. 

10. You shall not covet. unconstitutional

and I do noty appreciate people like you telling me that YOUR beliefs deserve special rights over MY beliefs.

your belief that you get to impose YOUR religion over the minds and freedoms of all people, FOR ALL GENERATIONS, is psychotically tyrannical

regardless of what you or madison believed ALL AMericans have a right to NOT believe in any god or religion. you do NOT have the right to FORCE people to believe in YOUR god or to ram your irrational religious morals down everyone elses throats

laws should NOT be beased upon YOUR primitive superstitions and irrational fears

they should be based on LOGIC and REASON


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## Granny (Mar 17, 2010)

ihopehefails said:


> Apparently James Madison did not believe that our civilization was to be held together by laws but by religion and the ten commandments.
> 
> 
> 
> > "To preserve the Republic, it is in the hands of the people. We have staked the whole future of American civilization not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government; upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments" James Madison



To preserve the Republic, it is in the hands of the people [something we need to recapture for the people] We have staked the whole future of American civilization not upon the power of government [unfortunately, the power of government has grown larger and larger, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government; [And we're not too damned good at governing outselves - never have - never will]upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments" James Madison 

The Ten Commandments are a pretty good guideline for how we should behave.


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## &#9773;proletarian&#9773; (Mar 17, 2010)

These people are like a cult. They make demigods out of the FF, rewrite history to create their own myths about them, and view the Federalist as the Talmud to the Constitutional Torah.


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## Ravi (Mar 17, 2010)

[FONT=Trebuchet MS,Bookman Old Style,Arial]_James Madison, the fourth president, known as "The Father of Our Constitution" made the following statement "We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God." _ 

Actually, this statement appears nowhere in the writings or recorded utterances of James Madison and is completely contradictory to his character as a strong proponent of the separation of church and state.
snopes.com: Religious Symbols in the U.S. National Capital
[/FONT]


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## Modbert (Mar 17, 2010)

Snopes strikes again! I should of known to check it, sounded fishy.


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## tigerbob (Mar 17, 2010)

Ravi said:


> [FONT=Trebuchet MS,Bookman Old Style,Arial]_James Madison, the fourth president, known as "The Father of Our Constitution" made the following statement "We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God." _
> 
> Actually, this statement appears nowhere in the writings or recorded utterances of James Madison and is completely contradictory to his character as a strong proponent of the separation of church and state.
> snopes.com: Religious Symbols in the U.S. National Capital
> [/FONT]





Nice.  As my daughter would say, "Pwnd".


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## bodecea (Mar 17, 2010)

Granny said:


> ihopehefails said:
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> > Apparently James Madison did not believe that our civilization was to be held together by laws but by religion and the ten commandments.
> ...



You recommend they all become law?


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## Granny (Mar 17, 2010)

I'm just saying these rules are not at all bad in terms of how we live our lives - has nothing at all to do with illegality or constitutionality.

Sort of a "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you," type of thing.

Mankind is not perfect, but the idea is to strive to do your best.  It will never be perfect.


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## ihopehefails (Mar 17, 2010)

Dogbert said:


> Maybe Ihope is a communist?
> 
> After all, he doesn't want people to commit adultery, which means he's for legalizing the behavior of others.
> 
> ...



In case you did not read the entire thing he said that the government was not to restrict people and that people were to be guided by their conscience.  In his case it meant the ten commandments.   This he chose for himself but other people may choose other things to follow.   I am free not to do all the things you said a Christian should do.  I should not have to explain this but it is becoming more common with people who believe in the god-like status of government.


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## ihopehefails (Mar 17, 2010)

rikules said:


> ihopehefails said:
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> > Apparently James Madison did not believe that our civilization was to be held together by laws but by religion and the ten commandments.
> ...



I don't think that I said that anyone should be forced to participate in the ten commandments nor did Madison.   In fact, he believed that people should self-govern themselves which means they have the freedom to believe as they want and be restrained by their own religious views.   They were free to choose what views they want to follow for themselves which was developed by their pursuit of their own religion which the first amendment protects.


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## Modbert (Mar 17, 2010)

ihopehefails said:


> In case you did not read the entire thing he said that the government was not to restrict people and that people were to be guided by their conscience.  In his case it meant the ten commandments.   This he chose for himself but other people may choose other things to follow.   I am free not to do all the things you said a Christian should do.  I should not have to explain this but it is becoming more common with people who believe in the god-like status of government.



Except Madison never said that quote.


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## jillian (Mar 17, 2010)

tigerbob said:


> ihopehefails said:
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> > Apparently James Madison did not believe that our civilization was to be held together by laws but by religion and the ten commandments.
> ...



like politicians today, they did a lot of sucking up and saying what they needed to in order to get support.

mostly, as you said,nice for him... and if he even believed it, was nothing more than an opinion.


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## ihopehefails (Mar 17, 2010)

bodecea said:


> Granny said:
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Why do people make this assumption that when someone says our society should be based on the ten commandments that somehow the government should go around and force that?  Did you not read the part about Madison believing in self-governance?   What does that mean if you say that people should live by the ten commandments and still have the freedom to self-govern yourself?   It means that the restraint that holds civilization together should of one's own choice and not coming from government.   In Madison's case he believed, along with many people, that society should be based on christian values since they were christian but in no way did any of the founders believed that that shuld be imposed on people from above since that would violate their right to self-govern themselves.


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## ihopehefails (Mar 17, 2010)

Dogbert said:


> ihopehefails said:
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> > In case you did not read the entire thing he said that the government was not to restrict people and that people were to be guided by their conscience.  In his case it meant the ten commandments.   This he chose for himself but other people may choose other things to follow.   I am free not to do all the things you said a Christian should do.  I should not have to explain this but it is becoming more common with people who believe in the god-like status of government.
> ...



Are you an American?  If the answer is no the but out.


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## Modbert (Mar 17, 2010)

ihopehefails said:


> Are you an American?  If the answer is no the but out.



Where I originate from is irrelevant.

Madison would be pissed that you're making up quotes about him.

Now where's your link rummy?


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## ihopehefails (Mar 17, 2010)

Dogbert said:


> ihopehefails said:
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> > In case you did not read the entire thing he said that the government was not to restrict people and that people were to be guided by their conscience.  In his case it meant the ten commandments.   This he chose for himself but other people may choose other things to follow.   I am free not to do all the things you said a Christian should do.  I should not have to explain this but it is becoming more common with people who believe in the god-like status of government.
> ...



States Distancing Themselves From The Federal Government | Editorial

The Silent Majority: States Distancing Themselves From The Federal Government

10th Amendment , An Ol&#8217; Broad&#8217;s Ramblings


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## ihopehefails (Mar 17, 2010)

jillian said:


> tigerbob said:
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You missed the point.


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## Modbert (Mar 17, 2010)

ihopehefails said:


> States Distancing Themselves From The Federal Government | Editorial
> 
> The Silent Majority: States Distancing Themselves From The Federal Government
> 
> 10th Amendment , An Ol Broads Ramblings



Three blogs that all basically say the same thing. How about a legitimate website?


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## NYcarbineer (Mar 17, 2010)

ihopehefails said:


> bodecea said:
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Living by the ten commandments is not self governing, it's God doing the governing.   Hence the term 'commandments'.


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## ihopehefails (Mar 17, 2010)

Dogbert said:


> ihopehefails said:
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> > States Distancing Themselves From The Federal Government | Editorial
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Those were legitmate so if you don't believe them that is your problem.  I assume that if people repeat that so many times that it probably got checked along the line.


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## ihopehefails (Mar 17, 2010)

NYcarbineer said:


> ihopehefails said:
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Since we have the freedom to pursue our own religion then we are choosing what we want to believe is holy.   A christian can follow the ten commandments but is always free to switch to satanism when he gets tired of those so they are self-governing themselves by their selection of their religious values to live by.


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## NYcarbineer (Mar 17, 2010)

*And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together. *

James Madison


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## Modbert (Mar 17, 2010)

ihopehefails said:


> Those were legitmate so if you don't believe them that is your problem.  I assume that if people repeat that so many times that it probably got checked along the line.



You're not listening, like you, they all got them from emails.

snopes.com: Religious Symbols in the U.S. National Capital



> James Madison, the fourth president, known as "The Father of Our Constitution" made the following statement "We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."
> 
> Actually, this statement appears nowhere in the writings or recorded utterances of James Madison and is completely contradictory to his character as a strong proponent of the separation of church and state.



Ignorant American.


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## NYcarbineer (Mar 17, 2010)

*In no instance have... the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people. *

James Madison


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## ihopehefails (Mar 17, 2010)

NYcarbineer said:


> *And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together. *
> 
> James Madison



The point you are trying to make does not pertain to this since no one has said that religion is to mandated on the people.  All I said that the people are free to choose their religion and have that religion be the restraints that make them civilized.   I can't understand how that is a threat to anyone's freedom when they can choose whatever religion they want and are free to do that under the first amendment.


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## &#9773;proletarian&#9773; (Mar 17, 2010)

Funny how the people who say the 10c are s great never mentions the punishments the bible prescribes for those who violate them...


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## ihopehefails (Mar 17, 2010)

NYcarbineer said:


> *In no instance have... the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people. *
> 
> James Madison



Church was never a threat to your liberties since you can't be compelled to join one by any law and because of that you can not be compelled to abide by their edicts that might endanger your liberities.


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## &#9773;proletarian&#9773; (Mar 17, 2010)

Dogbert said:


> ihopehefails said:
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How bout book, publication date, publisher, and page number?

Or document and paragraph?


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## &#9773;proletarian&#9773; (Mar 17, 2010)

ihopehefails said:


> NYcarbineer said:
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(tell that to the pilgrims) 

That's kinda why the US exists...​


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## Modbert (Mar 17, 2010)

&#9773;proletarian&#9773;;2108515 said:
			
		

> How bout book, publication date, publisher, and page number?
> 
> Or document and paragraph?



With idiots, you have to take slow steps.


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## ihopehefails (Mar 17, 2010)

&#9773;proletarian&#9773;;2108515 said:
			
		

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Once I prove that then you will ask for the original parchment it was written on and have it carbon dated.  I just don't have time for that so I am going to have to trust that people lifted these from other books that got them from other books that was orginally copied when he said them.


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## Modbert (Mar 17, 2010)

ihopehefails said:


> Once I prove that then you will ask for the original parchment it was written on and have it carbon dated.  I just don't have time for that so I am going to have to trust that people lifted these from other books that got them from other books that was orginally copied when he said them.



See post #32 of this thread.

Ignorant American.


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## NYcarbineer (Mar 17, 2010)

ihopehefails said:


> NYcarbineer said:
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I didn't say it.  Madison did.


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## NYcarbineer (Mar 17, 2010)

ihopehefails said:


> NYcarbineer said:
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> > *And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together. *
> ...



Your thread title has the word 'we' in it.


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## ihopehefails (Mar 17, 2010)

&#9773;proletarian&#9773;;2108520 said:
			
		

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Even when I say that religion exist in the private sphere you still try to attack it.  Even when others are free to choose a separate religion you still attack it.  Even when I say that people have the right to choose two opposite religions such as satanism and christianity you still attack it.


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## ihopehefails (Mar 17, 2010)

NYcarbineer said:


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He did think we should live by the ten commandments just as he thought we should be self-governed by our choice of religion (or whatever moral code we want).   They are not incompatable with each other.


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## &#9773;proletarian&#9773; (Mar 17, 2010)

Dogbert said:


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He's had three pages to source it! A page and a half since he was called on it.


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## Modbert (Mar 17, 2010)

ihopehefails said:


> He did think we should live by the ten commandments just as he thought we should be self-governed by our choice of religion (or whatever moral code we want).   They are not incompatable with each other.



No he didn't, you twit. Did you not bother to read that you and the rest of your ridiculous right wing blogs are all taking a quote from Madison that he never said.

Let me repeat that so you can't avoid saying you never saw it.

Madison never said that quote, ever.


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## jillian (Mar 17, 2010)

Dogbert said:


> ihopehefails said:
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> > Those were legitmate so if you don't believe them that is your problem.  I assume that if people repeat that so many times that it probably got checked along the line.
> ...



I KNEW it didn't sound like something he'd have believed.

I should have known, given the source, that it was a lie.


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## Modbert (Mar 17, 2010)

&#9773;proletarian&#9773;;2108556 said:
			
		

> He's had three pages to source it! A page and a half since he was called on it.



I actually asked him for a source in the 2nd post of this thread.

It shows you he's purposefully being a ignorant fool.


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## &#9773;proletarian&#9773; (Mar 17, 2010)

Dogbert said:


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I stand corrected. 

DISHONOR!




​


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## Modbert (Mar 17, 2010)

This is for you Ihope.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPHuE5pDlEs]YouTube - Say What Again!![/ame]

Time to fess up to your bullshit.


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## ihopehefails (Mar 17, 2010)

&#9773;proletarian&#9773;;2108556 said:
			
		

> Dogbert said:
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I suspect this tactic comes right out of the rules for radicals.  I'll have to read it to make sure but I'm betting that it is.


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## Modbert (Mar 17, 2010)

ihopehefails said:


> I suspect this tactic comes right out of the rules for radicals.  I'll have to read it to make sure but I'm betting that it is.



Asking someone to source their bullshit is a radical idea?

English motherfucker, do you speak it?


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## &#9773;proletarian&#9773; (Mar 17, 2010)

ihopehefails said:


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Never read it, but I think when I read the Federalist Papers (annotated), they referenced everything.

In fact, all the books I read have references either in the footnotes or in the back of the books.

I'd tell you whether they were mostly APA or MLA, but I don't remember the difference and I don't feel like Googling it.


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## Modbert (Mar 17, 2010)

Time to recant Ihope.


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## rikules (Mar 17, 2010)

ihopehefails said:


> NYcarbineer said:
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"He did think we should live by the ten commandments just as he thought we should be self-governed by our choice of religion (or whatever moral code we want). They are not incompatable with each other. "


many people need religion.

many christians admit that they would not know right from wrong without a guide book to tell them.


they go on to admit that they ONLY Reason they behave relatively decently is because  they are afraid of burning in hell forever.


belief in (and fear of) god and hell keep them from raping and beating and stealing and killing.

so I encourage you to continue in your belief as long as it keeps you from behaving badly.

As for me...
I don't need no god

I KNOW right from wrong!  like the back of my hand!


don't kill!
don't steal!
don't lie!
don't cheat!
don't rape!
don't enslave anyone
BE NICE!
don't force everyone to obey YOUR OWN STUPID RULES!
live and let live!
do unto others!
help when you can!


now THESE are better words to live by than the 10 commandments


I mean....really..

"BE NICE!" beats the hell out of "worship ONLY ME!"

and "help when you can" is much better than "make no craven images"

I daresay that we'd all be better of if you and madison followed MY philosophy


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## Old Rocks (Mar 17, 2010)

ihopehefails said:


> Dogbert said:
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Hopeless, James Madison never said those words. They are lies concocted for propaganda purposes by Conservatives that have nothing but disdain for our founding fathers.


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## Old Rocks (Mar 17, 2010)

ihopehefails said:


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I am an American. And have a nice little dd214 that says honorable. 

Which still has nothing at all to do with the fact that you are attempting to put words that James Madison never said, and would not have said, into his mouth.

In case you are not aware of it, Madison's home was quite near Jefferson's, and they often visited each other, and were both of the same opinion concerning the wall of seperation between church and state. And both were Diests, not Christians.


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## Old Rocks (Mar 17, 2010)

ihopehefails said:


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Hopeless you just don't get it, do you? James Madison never said those words.


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## Ravi (Mar 18, 2010)

ihopehefails said:


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Are you stupid or a liar? He never said it.


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## Coyote (Mar 18, 2010)

Ravi said:


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I'm voting for "stupid".


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## mdn2000 (Mar 18, 2010)

> We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution is designed only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for any other.



It is clear that our country was built on the morals and laws of god as the quote above from John Adams indicates.

One must wonder why the Marxist gets so upset at these facts.


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## rikules (Mar 18, 2010)

mdn2000 said:


> > We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution is designed only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for any other.
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"It is clear that our country was built on the morals and laws of god as the quote above from John Adams indicates."


yes


you are right


fortunately as our country grew we began to see and understand just how WRONG god was about so many things (womens rights, gay rights, slavery)

so we made corrections!

and now we no longer have slavery
(even though god promotes and endorses slavery)

and women now have (more or less) equal rights with men
(even though god opposes this)

it is truly a wonderful thing that our forefathers gave us a country and a government that we could CHANGE as we, as a nation, and as people, became more enlightened....


it would have been a terrible thing for our forefathers to impose a government that we could NOT change...


that would have been TYRANNY


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## &#9773;proletarian&#9773; (Mar 18, 2010)

Ravi said:


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All of the above, it seems


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## Coyote (Mar 18, 2010)

mdn2000 said:


> > We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution is designed only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for any other.
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Wow...one man built the foundation for our entire country.  Who'd a thunk it?


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## &#9773;proletarian&#9773; (Mar 18, 2010)

Why can't right-wingers ever tell the truth?


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## mdn2000 (Mar 18, 2010)

rikules said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> > > We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution is designed only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for any other.
> ...



Thank you for the kind comment, its nice when people acknowledge when someone is right.

Now I will point out how you are wrong.

God did not make slaves nor did the USA, that was inherited by the history that preceded the creation of the USA. 

You are far from enlightened. If anything you are very transparent feebly attempting to piss people off by making outragous comments that you cannot substantiate.

I see the type of enlightened society your ideas create, its called Detroit, good job.

Its people that changed, not our government, not our constitution.


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## Coyote (Mar 18, 2010)

mdn2000 said:


> God did not make slaves nor did the USA, that was inherited by the history that preceded the creation of the USA.



Slavery has been an a part of human society since the beginning and is part of the bible as well.  So...in so far as God made humanity, he made slavery.  Slavery was also an integral part of the creation of the USA - without slavery the southern colonies could never have been developed.  To say it was "inherited by the history that preceded the creation of the USA" is just plain sillyness.


----------



## mdn2000 (Mar 18, 2010)

Coyote said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> > God did not make slaves nor did the USA, that was inherited by the history that preceded the creation of the USA.
> ...



No, its not silly to state we inherited slavery, its simple fact, what is silly is to speculate how the USA would of developed without slavery. I prefer to discuss history and reality, not "what if".


----------



## Coyote (Mar 18, 2010)

mdn2000 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > mdn2000 said:
> ...



It's not "what if" - it's a matter of historical record.  Malaria, yellow fever and other diseases decimated colonists in the American south.  African slaves tolerated hard work in the heat and had a greater resistence to those diseases than the Europeans.  The agriculture\al development that sustained the south would not have gone far without slave labor until the industrial revolution changed the status quo. That's just one example.  It was not "inherited" it was _part of _the history of America and it's founding.


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## tigerbob (Mar 18, 2010)

&#9773;proletarian&#9773;;2110611 said:
			
		

> Why can't right-wingers ever tell the truth?



Why can't everyone stop generalizing?


----------



## mdn2000 (Mar 18, 2010)

Coyote said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



You said without slavery the southern states never would of developed, that is pure speculation on your part. 

So I stand by my statement, I do not like to discuss "what ifs".


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## Ravi (Mar 18, 2010)

mdn2000 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > mdn2000 said:
> ...


Then why are you in a thread attributing something to Madison that he never said?


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## Coyote (Mar 18, 2010)

mdn2000 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > mdn2000 said:
> ...



You are correct - I shouldn't have stated it that way, but they would not have developed in any major way until the industrial revolution which basically erased the need for slavery or forced labor.  My point still stands though - you can't simply make the excuse that our country "inherited slavery" - slavery developed it - that's history, not what if conjecture.  Whether it would have developed with or without slavery is irrelevant.


----------



## Coyote (Mar 18, 2010)

Ravi said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


----------



## rikules (Mar 18, 2010)

mdn2000 said:


> rikules said:
> 
> 
> > mdn2000 said:
> ...



"Now I will point out how you are wrong."


"God did not make slaves nor did the USA, that was inherited by the history that preceded the creation of the USA. "

god promotes, endorses and validates slavery all through the bible


when our Founding Fathers created our nation slavery was a right.

god and our founding fathers were botth wrong about slavery.

I have no doubtthat our founding fathers can be forgiven for being wrong about slavery as they were probably just following gods orders as proclaimed throughout the bible "you MAY own and BEAT slaves and have SEX with them and you can even sell your daughter into slavery"



"You are far from enlightened. If anything you are very transparent feebly attempting to piss people off by making outragous comments that you cannot substantiate."


kinda like what you are doing now?

As a nation we are all more enlightened today than we were back when the nation was created.
Unlike in 1776 we KNOW that women and blacks and gays deserve equal rights.
we KNOW that slavery is wrong
we KNOW that all citizens deserve the right to vote

there can be no doubt that we are much more enlightened than our forefathers were.


"I see the type of enlightened society your ideas create, its called Detroit, good job."

Now
as opposed to sticking to the subject, you are merely making up lies and false accusations.

That's rather pathetic of you.


"Its people that changed, not our government, not our constitution. "


meaning what?

yes
people changed

and then we changed our laws

and we changed our interpretation of the constitution.

This is good!

It would be tyranny (and WRONG) for our forefathers (or you) to demand that we can NOT change our laws to accomodate our times.

you do oppose tyranny, no?


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## mdn2000 (Mar 18, 2010)

Coyote said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Its not an "excuse", slavery is simply as it was, a part of history, brought to all parts of the world not by citizens of the USA but by people of a time much different than our own.  Slavery did not develop the constitution but the people who made the USA did, and its those people who set the wheels in motion that ended slavery. The founding fathers did what they could and as history shows the founding fathers were right, the result was an end of slavery in a very short time when compared to the long history of slavery. Thousands of years of slavery ended with few simple words and the brave acts of a few men.


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## mdn2000 (Mar 18, 2010)

Rikrules, you have no concept of what is in the  bible or what is the constition. You are a victim of the poor educational system that exsists today. Sorry but there is nothing to comment on in your post, it is a sad example of what the Liberal/Marxist have been able to do through education.


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## ABikerSailor (Mar 18, 2010)

Coyote said:


> ihopehefails said:
> 
> 
> > Apparently James Madison did not believe that our civilization was to be held together by laws but by religion and the ten commandments.
> ...



Actually, that's a mistranslation from the original Hebrew.  It was originally written "thou shalt not MURDER", but people thought it should cover all killing, so it was changed.

Incidentally, if killing is a sin, then God Himself must be a sinner as well, because everything eventually dies.

Wanna know the real reason behind the 10 Commandments?  Survival.  Why should we follow them?  Simple......if everyone follows them, everyone lives.  I'll show you how this works......

First three Commandments were to remember exactly who God is, and to not worship anything that wasn't Him.  Why?  Because if you didn't, he'd reward you with the wages of sin...........i.e. death.

Fourth Commandment is "thou shalt not murder", which means don't kill each other because God doesn't want the human race to die out.

Then, they talk about everything that could cause you to kill yourself, or murder someone else.

Thou shalt not commit adultery.  Why?  Because if your SO, or the SO of the person you're doing it with ever found out about it, they would want to murder you.

Thou shalt not steal.  Why?  Simple..........if you take something from someone without paying for it, they want to come after you and kill you.

Thou shalt not covet.  Why?  Simple.............if you think enough about it with a great deal of jealousy, coveting will eventually cause you to go over to your neighbor, kill them, and take their stuff.

Honor thy Father and Mother.  Why?  Because they brought you into this world, and they can take you out.

Thou shalt not bear false witness.  What does that mean?  Don't lie to people, it can cause you to get killed.  And one of the fastest places a lie can kill you is in the doctors office.  If you are asked a question that you don't want to answer, and lie, chances are the doctor is going to treat you wrong, and you'll end up dead.

Same with mafia dons as well.  They don't like lies very much when they are told to them.

And the last one, remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy.  Why?  Simplest of all actually..........if you work too hard without taking a break, eventually you'll start to stress and possibly will have a heart attack.

Why follow the 10 Commandments?  It's a good idea as well as an excellent blueprint for the survival of the human species.


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## &#9773;proletarian&#9773; (Mar 18, 2010)

ABikerSailor said:


> Incidentally, if killing is a sin, then God Himself must be a sinner as well, because everything eventually dies.



Thus Christianity is refuted by itself.




> First three Commandments were to remember exactly who God is, and to not worship anything that wasn't Him.  Why?  Because if you didn't, he'd reward you with the wages of sin...........i.e. death.


'worship me or die'

Didn't we kill a king for that?


> Fourth Commandment is "thou shalt not murder", which means don't kill each other because God doesn't want the human race to die out.


Except for newborn children of the tribes jesubites, hittites, ammonites...


> Then, they talk about everything that could cause you to kill yourself, or murder someone else.


Like obeying god when he commands you to commit genocide


> Thou shalt not commit adultery.  Why?  Because if your SO, or the SO of the person you're doing it with ever found out about it, they would want to murder you.


Cool, so it has nothing to do with it being wrong to cheat on your wife? It's more like 'thou shall not get caught?'


> Thou shalt not steal.  Why?  Simple..........if you take something from someone without paying for it, they want to come after you and kill you.


So there's no morality involved?


> Thou shalt not covet.  Why?  Simple.............if you think enough about it with a great deal of jealousy, coveting will eventually cause you to go over to your neighbor, kill them, and take their stuff.


If we didn't covet, we'd never produce and we'd starve.

'Wow! He has grain! I want grain! I should plant grain!'


> Honor thy Father and Mother.  Why?  Because they brought you into this world, and they can take you out.


You're an idiot


> And the last one, remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy.  Why?  Simplest of all actually..........if you work too hard without taking a break, eventually you'll start to stress and possibly will have a heart attack.





> Why follow the 10 Commandments?  It's a good idea as well as an excellent blueprint for the survival of the human species.


not really, but don't let reality get in the way of your delusion


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## ABikerSailor (Mar 18, 2010)

By the way, for all of you donut smiling cock gobbling cum dumpsters out there that think God promoted slavery?

Got just one word for you.........Exodus.


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## ABikerSailor (Mar 18, 2010)

Incidentally, proletarian, lemmie tell you something about the first 3.......

First one, He's telling us that He brought us into being, and for us to remember who that is.  Kinda like a parent actually.  And......ever been divorced?  Did your ex ever re-marry?  Did you have children with her?  How would YOU feel if your kids started calling someone else dad?

Basically, remember who He is.

Second one about the graven images and not worshiping them?  Well.......if you claim to follow God, and then are seen bowing down to another deity, people will start to question your faith, and, when they question that, they will question everything else about you.

Besides.......wrapping up all your faith into something that was made by man is kinda shorting yourself, ain't it?

Don't take the Lord's name in vain.  Why?  Simple........do YOU like it when people call you everything BUT your name?  

And, remember.......we were created in His image.


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## rikules (Mar 18, 2010)

mdn2000 said:


> Rikrules, you have no concept of what is in the  bible or what is the constition. You are a victim of the poor educational system that exsists today. Sorry but there is nothing to comment on in your post, it is a sad example of what the Liberal/Marxist have been able to do through education.




I know that god defends and justifies slavery in the bible in a number of passages

and I know the words "America is a christian nation" are NOT in the constitution.


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## ABikerSailor (Mar 18, 2010)

rikules said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> > Rikrules, you have no concept of what is in the  bible or what is the constition. You are a victim of the poor educational system that exsists today. Sorry but there is nothing to comment on in your post, it is a sad example of what the Liberal/Marxist have been able to do through education.
> ...



You KNOW that God defends and justifies slavery?  Exactly where please, post a link and prepare to have yourself a new asshole stupid.

By the way..........ever hear of some dude named Moses?  Ever hear about his story in a book of the Bible called Exodus?

It's about how much God doesn't approve of slavery.


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## BasicGreatGuy (Mar 18, 2010)

ihopehefails said:


> Apparently James Madison did not believe that our civilization was to be held together by laws but by religion and the ten commandments.
> 
> 
> 
> > "To preserve the Republic, it is in the hands of the people. We have staked the whole future of American civilization not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government; upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments" James Madison



Madison did not say that.  You should fact check. Just because said quote is repeated on the internet does not mean it is accurate.


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## BasicGreatGuy (Mar 18, 2010)

Why is it that those who had previously responded assumed the quote was true? Do you guys believe everything you read without question?


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## ABikerSailor (Mar 18, 2010)

BasicGreatGuy said:


> Why is it that those who had previously responded assumed the quote was true? Do you guys believe everything you read without question?



Of COURSE they believe everything they read or see without question.  They're FAUX News viewers!

People with critical thinking skills who actually know what he stood for, upon hearing the quote, would want to verify it with facts (rather than blogs), to make sure.

Conservative lemmings believe that they are smarter than everyone else, and subsequently don't fact check things, resulting in an exceedingly thrilling ride off a very tall cliff.

The GPS isn't always right, neither is FAUX Noise.


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## mdn2000 (Mar 18, 2010)

As of this time I could care less what some members think Madison said or did not say, I will wait until I can buy half a dozen books written over the past 200 years before I know what is true and what is not.

What is important is the Leftist/Liberal/Marxist are so bent out of shape attacking others beliefs. 

Such anger and hatred, whats so wrong with morality, whats wrong with not killing, with not raping children, whats wrong with not stealing.

Still one must study Adams, Madison, Jefferson, Franklin. One must study those that influenced our founding fathers, one must study the Greeks to put everything in perspective.

I find it useful though to see how vehemently the Liberal/Marxist attack simple people who try to live life as they please.


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## rikules (Mar 18, 2010)

ABikerSailor said:


> rikules said:
> 
> 
> > mdn2000 said:
> ...



 However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you.  You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land.  You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance.  You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.  (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)



When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are.  If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again.  But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her.  And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter.  If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife.  If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.  (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)


When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished.  If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.  (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)


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## ABikerSailor (Mar 18, 2010)

Yo.......Sick Drools.......quit taking shit outta context.

Incidentally, you DO realize that Leviticus is a manual for Jewish Priests, right?  Are you Jewish?


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## rikules (Mar 18, 2010)

ABikerSailor said:


> Yo.......Sick Drools.......quit taking shit outta context.
> 
> Incidentally, you DO realize that Leviticus is a manual for Jewish Priests, right?  Are you Jewish?





slavery is slavery is slavery

you do realize that slavery is slavery....right?

or do you think that some types of slavery are ok?

in the OT......god promotes, endorses and defends slavery.


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## Old Rocks (Mar 18, 2010)

mdn2000 said:


> Rikrules, you have no concept of what is in the  bible or what is the constition. You are a victim of the poor educational system that exsists today. Sorry but there is nothing to comment on in your post, it is a sad example of what the Liberal/Marxist have been able to do through education.



mdn, in this, as in everything else, you are an idiot. There are rules for the treatment of slaves in the Bible. And the slavery is very much in our constitution, particulary in the counting of people for representation. The 3//5 rule.


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## Old Rocks (Mar 18, 2010)

ABikerSailor said:


> rikules said:
> 
> 
> > mdn2000 said:
> ...





          _________________________________

OLD TESTAMENT REFERENCES

Exodus 2:23, 13:3, 13:14, 20:2, Deuteronomy 5:6, 6:12, 7:8, 8:14, 13:5, 13:10, Joshua 24:17,  Judges 6:8, Nehemiah 5:5, 9:17, Jeremiah 34:13, Micah 6:4 


NEW TESTAMENT REFERENCES

Luke 21:24, John 8:33, Acts 7:6, 7:9, Romans 6:19, 8:15, 8:21, 1 Corinthians 9:27, 2 Corinthians 10:5, Galatians 4:24, 25, 5:1, 1 Timothy 6:1, Hebrews 2:15, 2 Peter 2:19  




Michelangelo's unfinished 'Bearded Slave' captures 
a slave's sense of imprisonment, of being trapped
_________________________________________ 


CASE STUDIES 

JOSEPH

Joseph was sold into slavery by his brothers, who hated him. He was taken to Egypt where he was auctioned in an open market to the highest bidder. His future looked black, but the subsequent story shows how a clever and skilled slave could rise in the world - Joseph quickly becomes the trusted overseer of large estates belonging to his Egyptian master, Potiphar. 

However, the story also shows how vulnerable a slave was. Potiphar's wife mades sexual advances to him, expecting that she, as his owner, could expect him to respond in the same way as a slave girl might submit to her master. When Joseph rejected her, she was humiliated and outraged, since his refusal contradicted what she saw as normal practice. She accused him of attempted rape. Now the slave's vulnerability became clear: despite his ability and faithful service to Potiphar, Joseph was immediately cast into prison, without trial, where he languished for some years.
(Genesis 37-50). 
For more on Joseph, see BIBLE PEOPLE: JOSEPH

_________________________________________________

ONESIMUS

The Letter of Paul to Philemon describes the slave Onesimus, possibly a runaway, and tells us something about the way that slaves were regarded in New Testament times. He is with Paul, not only serving him but now converted to the Good News. 

Paul seems to look on Onesimus almost as his own child, and wants the slave to continue in his service. Nevertheless, Paul knows the legal implications of this, and that he is obliged to send him back to his master, Philemon. He wonders whether Onesimus has wronged his former master? Or perhaps stolen something from him? If this is so, Paul has to tread carefully. He speaks in a deferential way to Philemon, diplomatically asking for the slave to be released.

At the end of the letter, we get another clue to the situation - Paul is about to visit Philemon, probably bringing Onesimus with him. When Paul arrives, can he hope that Philemon will give him Onesimus as a gift?
(Letter to the Colossians 4:9; Philemon)

________________________________________ 

HAGAR

Hagar is the Egyptian slave of Sarah, wife of Abraham. She was probably acquired when Abraham and Sarah were in Egypt. When Sarah cannot conceive a child, she gives Hagar to Abraham as a concubine, so that the girl may conceive a child that will legally belong to Sarah, and may be named as Abraham's successor. A great deal of guff is written about the injustice of this, but the truth is that Hagar would have leapt at the chance to improve her social status from slave to concubine and possibly mother of the next leader of the tribe.

Hagar becomes pregnant, but it is made clear in the story that Sarah is still the Queen Bee of the tribe. Hagar still belongs to her, even though she is the mother of Abraham's child. It seems then that female slaves were under the legal jurisdiction of the Alpha Female of the tribe, and were not considered the property of the male tribal leader.
(Genesis 16, 21). 
For more on Hagar, see BIBLE WOMEN: HAGAR 





    ________________________________________________________________________________________ 
ACTIVITIES

Slaves and the Law
Make a search for ancient laws governing the treatment of slaves, for example in
·     Deuteronomy 23:15-20, on fugitive slaves or
·     The Code of Hammurabi


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## Old Rocks (Mar 18, 2010)

mdn2000 said:


> As of this time I could care less what some members think Madison said or did not say, I will wait until I can buy half a dozen books written over the past 200 years before I know what is true and what is not.
> 
> What is important is the Leftist/Liberal/Marxist are so bent out of shape attacking others beliefs.
> 
> ...



Reality is that the founding fathers were not at all the pious people that you dingleberries try to make them out to be. They were some of the most brilliant men of the enlightenment, and regarded most religions as advaseral to the freedom of men.

The Christian Nation Myth

Such a view of American history is completely contrary to known facts. The primary leaders of the so-called founding fathers of our nation were not Bible-believing Christians; they were deists. Deism was a philosophical belief that was widely accepted by the colonial intelligentsia at the time of the American Revolution. Its major tenets included belief in human reason as a reliable means of solving social and political problems and belief in a supreme deity who created the universe to operate solely by natural laws. The supreme God of the Deists removed himself entirely from the universe after creating it. They believed that he assumed no control over it, exerted no influence on natural phenomena, and gave no supernatural revelation to man. A necessary consequence of these beliefs was a rejection of many doctrines central to the Christian religion. Deists did not believe in the virgin birth, divinity, or resurrection of Jesus, the efficacy of prayer, the miracles of the Bible, or even the divine inspiration of the Bible. 

These beliefs were forcefully articulated by Thomas Paine in Age of Reason, a book that so outraged his contemporaries that he died rejected and despised by the nation that had once revered him as "the father of the American Revolution." To this day, many mistakenly consider him an atheist, even though he was an out spoken defender of the Deistic view of God. Other important founding fathers who espoused Deism were George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Ethan Allen, James Madison, and James Monroe.


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## mdn2000 (Mar 19, 2010)

Old Rocks said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> > Rikrules, you have no concept of what is in the  bible or what is the constition. You are a victim of the poor educational system that exsists today. Sorry but there is nothing to comment on in your post, it is a sad example of what the Liberal/Marxist have been able to do through education.
> ...



Old Crock going off half cocked because all Old Crocks does is cut and paste. Look at the great links, good job Old Crock.


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## tumblgr (Mar 19, 2010)

BREAKING NEWS: James Madison is dead.


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## Article 15 (Mar 19, 2010)

ihopehefails said:


> Apparently James Madison did not believe that our civilization was to be held together by laws but by religion and the ten commandments.
> 
> 
> 
> > "To preserve the Republic, it is in the hands of the people. We have staked the whole future of American civilization not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government; upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments" James Madison



**sending James Madison a zombie cookie**


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## &#9773;proletarian&#9773; (Mar 19, 2010)

ABikerSailor said:


> By the way, for all of you donut smiling cock gobbling cum dumpsters out there that think God promoted slavery?
> 
> Got just one word for you.........Exodus.




lol





ABikerSailor said:


> Incidentally, proletarian, lemmie tell you something about the first 3.......
> 
> First one, He's telling us that He brought us into being



He's my real daddy? Does that me _me_ the Son of God?



> And......ever been divorced?  Did your ex ever re-marry?  Did you have children with her?  How would YOU feel if your kids started calling someone else dad?



You the other gods _do_ exist?


> Basically, remember who He is.



A genocidal misogynist? 


> Second one about the graven images and not worshiping them?  Well.......if you claim to follow God, and then are seen bowing down to another deity, people will start to question your faith, and, when they question that, they will question everything else about you.



Go ahead. I don't blindly follow orders based on who gives them. They tried that defense at Nuremburg.


> Besides.......wrapping up all your faith into something that was made by man is kinda shorting yourself, ain't it?



Yet here you are...


> Don't take the Lord's name in vain.  Why?  Simple........do YOU like it when people call you everything BUT your name?



non sequitur



> And, remember.......we were created in His image.


God looks like Joseph Merrick? Or did you men spiritually, as in God's nature is like Stalin's?



ABikerSailor said:


> You KNOW that God defends and justifies slavery?  Exactly where please, post a link and prepare to have yourself a new asshole stupid.
> 
> By the way..........ever hear of some dude named Moses?  Ever hear about his story in a book of the Bible called Exodus?
> 
> It's about how much God doesn't approve of slavery.



Except when the Master Race does it 



mdn2000 said:


> As of this time I could care less what some members think Madison said or did not say,



So the truth doesn't matter?

Typical of a right-winger.


> Such anger and hatred, whats so wrong with morality, whats wrong with not killing, with not raping children, whats wrong with not stealing.



Exactly, what's wrong with being an atheist and refusing to commit rape and genocide and kill children no matter who says their 'god' commands it? 

Just because theists have no morals doesn't mean they have to attack they who do.




rikules said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > rikules said:
> ...





ABikerSailor said:


> Yo.......Sick Drools.......quit taking shit outta context.




lol

Please provide the context in which invading a nation, killing all the men and male children and women who've had sex before and taking the (necessarily predominantly prebuescent, given the marriage rituals of the day) virgin gorls hostage, shaving their heads, and keeping them as sex slaves is moral and just.


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## &#9773;proletarian&#9773; (Mar 19, 2010)

rikules said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> > Yo.......Sick Drools.......quit taking shit outta context.
> ...



In the NT, Jesus never condemns it, but rather tells slaves to be good obedient slaves.


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## &#9773;proletarian&#9773; (Mar 19, 2010)

Who wants to bet IBS tries to defend genocide by claiming 'well, everyone else was doing it, too!' and 'They were just following orders- it's okay because of who gave the orders!'?


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## mdn2000 (Mar 19, 2010)

mdn2000 said:


> As of this time I could care less what some members think Madison said or did not say, I will wait until I can buy half a dozen books written over the past 200 years before I know what is true and what is not.
> 
> What is important is the Leftist/Liberal/Marxist are so bent out of shape attacking others beliefs.
> 
> ...



Its great to see logic and fact go unchallenged.


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## midcan5 (Mar 19, 2010)

"Nothwithstanding the general progress made within the two last centuries in favour of this branch of liberty, & the full establishment of it, in some parts of our Country, there remains in others a strong bias towards the old error, that without some sort of alliance or coalition between Gov' & Religion neither can be duly supported: Such indeed is the tendency to such a coalition, and such its corrupting influence on both the parties, that the danger cannot be too carefully guarded agst.. And in a Gov' of opinion, like ours, the only effectual guard must be found in the soundness and stability of the general opinion on the subject. *Every new & successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance. And I have no doubt that every new example, will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Gov will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together;*"

 [James Madison, Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822, The Writings of James Madison, Gaillard Hunt]

Quotes on Religion - James Madison


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## Article 15 (Mar 19, 2010)

mdn2000 said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> > As of this time I could care less what some members think Madison said or did not say, I will wait until I can buy half a dozen books written over the past 200 years before I know what is true and what is not.
> ...



I don't need the 10 Commandments to tell me that killing, raping children, and stealing is wrong, jackass.


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## Coyote (Mar 19, 2010)

mdn2000 said:


> As of this time I could care less what some members think Madison said or did not say, I will wait until I can buy half a dozen books written over the past 200 years before I know what is true and what is not.



I do care about what he says or does not say when people attempt to use his words to make a false point.



> What is important is the Leftist/Liberal/Marxist are so bent out of shape attacking others beliefs.



mmmmhhhh they're not the only one's attacking other's beliefs....



> Such anger and hatred, whats so wrong with morality, whats wrong with not killing, with not raping children, whats wrong with not stealing.



Absolutely nothing is wrong with them.  Those beliefs are almost universal in human society, in one form or another.  They didn't start with nor will the end with any one religion.



> Still one must study Adams, Madison, Jefferson, Franklin. One must study those that influenced our founding fathers, one must study the Greeks to put everything in perspective.
> 
> *I find it useful though to see how vehemently the Liberal/Marxist attack simple people who try to live life as they please.*




I find it dismaying how vehemently the Conservative/Fundies attack simple people who try to live life as they please.


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## &#9773;proletarian&#9773; (Mar 19, 2010)

Article 15 said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> > mdn2000 said:
> ...



But the Jews and many to come after needed to bible to argue that it was right.


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## mdn2000 (Mar 19, 2010)

[quoteI do care about what he says or does not say when people attempt to use his words to make a false point][/quote]

Yet by only reading Madison do you know if the point is false, sounds like someone prefers to be ignorant.



> Those beliefs are almost universal in human society, in one form or another. They didn't start with nor will the end with any one religion.



As universal as the Bible, these principles may not of started in Israel but it is the Bible that is the oldest written word that these principles are found in.



> I find it dismaying how vehemently the Conservative/Fundies attack simple people who try to live life as they please.



Simple people, who do you speak of, which incident, certainly I have not vehemently attacked you, so what are you speaking of.



> I don't need the 10 Commandments to tell me that killing, raping children, and stealing is wrong, jackass



You need some sort of commandment in order to be polite though, incidently where did I state that you needed the ten commandments??? Than again how do you know you did not need the Ten Commandments, 

You were born in a culture that obeyed, lived, prayed, memorized, and taught  the Ten Commandments. You cannot say how you would behave if you grew up in a culture where the Ten Commandments did not exsist.


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## Coyote (Mar 19, 2010)

mdn2000 said:


> > I do care about what he says or does not say when people attempt to use his words to make a false point]
> 
> 
> 
> Yet by only reading Madison do you know if the point is false, sounds like someone prefers to be ignorant.



The point is false on two grounds: one, Madison never said it.  To use it as if he he said it is to imply a false authority and hints and clutching at straws and willing to accept a false statement in order to try to prove a point.

The second way in which it is false is that there is ample evidence that the constitution and our system of law were most certainly not based on Ten Commandment law or Biblical principles but rather on English Common Law.



> As universal as the Bible, these principles may not of started in Israel but it *is the Bible that is the oldest written word that these principles are found in.*



I don't think so.

The oldest material in the Hebrew Bible, which would be the Old Testament  is thought to date from the 13th century BC and the final form is thought to have been set between somewhere between the 1st century BC and the 4th century AD.  

Prior to that, you have the Code of Hamurabi, which includes similar injunctions (along with their punishments) (1790BC); Code of Ur-Nammu, king of Ur (ca. 2050 BC) and some others.



> > I find it dismaying how vehemently the Conservative/Fundies attack simple people who try to live life as they please.
> 
> 
> 
> Simple people, who do you speak of, which incident, certainly I have not vehemently attacked you, so what are you speaking of.



No.  You haven't but there have been plenty from the right on "Liberal/Marxists".



> > *I don't need the 10 Commandments to tell me that killing, raping children, and stealing is wrong, jackass*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I did not say that quote.

On the last paragraph - some version of the "Ten Commandments" (or the Golden Rule) exists in almost every human society, independent of Judeo-Christian philosophy.


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## Anguille (Mar 19, 2010)

mdn2000 said:


> You were born in a culture that obeyed, lived, prayed, memorized, and taught  the Ten Commandments. You cannot say how you would behave if you grew up in a culture where the Ten Commandments did not exsist.




Ok. So then why do we still have rape, murder and theft just like we did before the 10 Commandments?


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## mdn2000 (Mar 19, 2010)

> The second way in which it is false is that there is ample evidence that the constitution and our system of law were most certainly not based on Ten Commandment law or Biblical principles but rather on English Common Law



I wont argue this point based on opinion I also admit that my knowledge is mostly that I have attained reading John Adams, John Adams was extremely well read and I must further my studies by attaining the books John Adams read. I could google and come back to this but I really like to have book in hand. Our founding was not solely based on English Common Law. Like I said I will come back to this, most likely not with too much new information but who knows, I may get lucky at the used book store today.

I am going on a search for some books on Madison, nothing new though, I like to get books that are very old. I find that many books written closer to the times in question are much more relevant.



> Prior to that, you have the Code of Hamurabi, which includes similar injunctions (along with their punishments) (1790BC); Code of Ur-Nammu, king of Ur (ca. 2050 BC) and some others.



Like I said my studies on this subject are light, I am not familiar with what you have posted so I thank you, I will be sure to add this to my studies.

On the other stuff I did not mean to write my post as it read, it should of been a bit more directed so that others would not of contributed a quote to you that you did not write, I got a bit lazy.


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## mdn2000 (Mar 19, 2010)

Anguille said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> > You were born in a culture that obeyed, lived, prayed, memorized, and taught  the Ten Commandments. You cannot say how you would behave if you grew up in a culture where the Ten Commandments did not exsist.
> ...



Human nature repeats itself

Not all people grow up being taught properly or have bad parents.

Abnormal sex drives

Abnormality in general.

I am not sure that the premise of the question is accurate, how bad was crime before the 10 Commandments and how much did crime change after the 10 Commandments, this question I cannot answer.


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## mdn2000 (Mar 19, 2010)

Coyote said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> > > I do care about what he says or does not say when people attempt to use his words to make a false point]
> ...



And did not God say that all man will know my word, I believe this, so being independent of Judeo-Christian religion in my opinion is consistent with the word of God.


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## JakeStarkey (Mar 19, 2010)

ihopehefails said:


> Apparently James Madison did not believe that our civilization was to be held together by laws but by religion and the ten commandments.
> 
> 
> 
> > "To preserve the Republic, it is in the hands of the people. We have staked the whole future of American civilization not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government; upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments" James Madison



It's ihopehefails who is wrong, not JM.  I will refer you all to Is it true that Madison said "Our future is staked on the 10 commandments?" which clearly explains the error of ihef's way.  The point is that JM never said it.


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## Coyote (Mar 19, 2010)

mdn2000 said:


> > The second way in which it is false is that there is ample evidence that the constitution and our system of law were most certainly not based on Ten Commandment law or Biblical principles but rather on English Common Law
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Ok...it had me confused 

On the other - I know it wasn't based solely on Common Law, but it also included aspects from the Greeks as well as the Romans I believe.


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## Coyote (Mar 19, 2010)

mdn2000 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > mdn2000 said:
> ...



At this point, we would be debating faith...and faith is just that, faith...


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## Coyote (Mar 19, 2010)

mdn2000 said:


> Anguille said:
> 
> 
> > mdn2000 said:
> ...



If you look up the references to Hammerabi and the other codes (Wiki is the source that is easiest)...you'll see the same sorts of laws put into place well before the TenCommandments.  The Ten Commandments were simply the code for the Hebrews.  I doubt crime "changed" all that much because similar laws were in place in other societies.  Also, crime depends on what you consider "crime" (for instance in ancient societies - including those of the Bible, many crimes against women were not considered "crimes").  Crime also on the strength of the rule of law and socical stability.  Crime certainly rises in time of war and conflict.


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## rikules (Mar 19, 2010)

mdn2000 said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> > As of this time I could care less what some members think Madison said or did not say, I will wait until I can buy half a dozen books written over the past 200 years before I know what is true and what is not.
> ...



It surprises me that you would be so proud of not challenging the bad logic and false facts of todays modern conservatism.

fact:  god promoted slavery
fact:  The United States is a SECULAR nation
fact:  the words "the United States is a CHRISTIAN nation" are NOT in the constitution

that you would willingly and blindly believe lies and misinformation is very telling


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## ABikerSailor (Mar 19, 2010)

No.......God didn't promote slavery.  Ask the Jews if you don't believe that one.  Matter of fact, it was the very reason that Yeshua was in Jerusalem just before He was crucified.  He was there to celebrate Passover, which led to the Hebrews being led out of slavery in Egypt with Moshe (Moses) in the lead.

Matter of fact, God doesn't promote slavery of any kind.  Get me a Bible verse that SPECIFICALLY STATES THAT GOD ENDORSES SLAVERY.

You can't.


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## Coyote (Mar 19, 2010)

God(s) ... is/are indifferent to slavery.

That is a human affair.

But...the Judeo-Christian brand of deity does _endorse _strict obedience.

Failure to comply could result in smiting.


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## mdn2000 (Mar 21, 2010)

I got my book on Madison, unfortunately the used book store only had one, this book clearly attributes the Ten Commandment statement to James Madison, further, I am just kidding, I have the book but nothing in it about the Ten Commandments. Just doing a quick search using the index of the book and its clear Madison meant for the seperation of church and state. Madison felt people should be free to practice their religion. 

It also appears that Madison was ashamed of owning slaves, its a vague reference in that there is not much information but then again I just got the book.

I have never ever been able to come up with certain fact simply by reading one book, I wont be satisfied until I find many more books on Madison. Of course it is possible to find one great book that will do the job so I will keep looking.

So is it out of line to quote John Adams in this thread, John Adams definately was influenced by god and the ten commandments, I will have to take a look at Page Smith's great work on John Adams.

Thanks is in order for all you folks posting in this thread, I went out and bought "James Madison, the Founding Father" by Robert A. Rutland, it is signed by the author, may not be worth more than the 7 bucks I paid but its great that its signed, if it had not been for this thread I would of missed this great find.


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## Dante (Mar 21, 2010)

ihopehefails said:


> Apparently James Madison did not believe that our civilization was to be held together by laws but by religion and the ten commandments.
> 
> 
> 
> > "To preserve the Republic, it is in the hands of the people. We have staked the whole future of American civilization not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government; upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments" James Madison





James Madison also owned slaves. What of it?



> JM grew up in a slave-owning family and owned  slaves  all his life.
> 
> In 1833  JM sold several of his farms but not his slaves.  A year later he sold 16 slaves to a relative - with their permission. (Brant, p637)
> 
> ...


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## mdn2000 (Mar 21, 2010)

rikules said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> > mdn2000 said:
> ...



Your a pretty bad troll, so which lie and misinformation do you think I believe.

I have yet to comment on slavery and what is stated about slavery in the bible

I have made no comments on the Secularism

I have made no statement nor debated if the USA is a Christian nation.

Did you slip and hit your head on the floor or are you so pissed you cant figure out which post is written by who.


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## Anguille (Mar 21, 2010)

After James Madison died, his wife, Dolly Madison relied on the kindness of one of his former slaves.

"Paul Jennings was James Madison's enslaved manservant. He was part of the Madison household staff at the White House, and was Mr. Madison's personal attendant during his retirement and was present at his death at Montpelier. Jennings began his life as a slave on the Virginia plantation of a U.S. president, and ended it as a free man, employed by the U.S. government, and living in a thriving racially-mixed community in the nation's capitol city.
Along the way he helped rescue the portrait of George Washington before the British burned the White House, was freed by Senator Daniel Webster, became an abolitionist, gave an aged and impoverished Dolley Madison, his former owner, money from his own pocket, authored the first White House memoir, saw his sons fight with the Union Army in the Civil War, and died in northwest Washington at 75."

WikiAnswers - What happened to dolly madison slave paul jennings

"Another enslaved person who accompanied Dolley Madison on her return to Washington was Paul Jennings.  Like Dolley Madison, Paul Jennings had previously lived on Lafayette Square&#8212;in the White House&#8212;while James Madison served as President.  After her return to Washington, Dolley Madison sold Paul Jennings and, in 1847, he was purchased by her Lafayette Square neighbor Daniel Webster.  
In 1865, Paul Jennings wrote the first memoir ever written about life in the White House, entitled A Colored Man's Reminiscences of James Madison.  In this work he also described what it was like to see the former First Lady living in poverty on Lafayette Square after her husband's death.  He wrote:  "Mrs. Madison was a remarkably fine woman. She was beloved by every body in Washington, white and colored. &#8230; In the last days of her life . . . she was in a state of absolute poverty, and I think sometimes suffered for the necessaries of life. While I was a servant for Mr. Webster, he often sent me to her with a market-basket full of provisions, and told me whenever I saw anything in the house I thought she was in need of, to take it to her. I often did this, and occasionally gave her small sums from my own pocket. . ." "

Dolley Madison's House


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## Ravi (Mar 21, 2010)

I thought Dolly Madison was the inventor of Twinkies.


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## mdn2000 (Mar 21, 2010)

Just a little bit of reading and its clear Madison did not like slavery. What people do not consider is the times these founding fathers lived in.

I stated the USA inherited slavery from the rest of the world and am attacked.

In the case of Madison he inherited his first slave from his Grandmother. 

So as a young man what is Madison to do, just free the slave, how and into what kind of world, Madison understood the times he was living in much better than those who post the strawman arguenments here. 

In Virginia Madison is suppose to simply tell his slave he is free, how far would that slave get, not very far, most likely the slave would be captured and forced to work on another farm, in the case of a house servant such as Madison's Billie, how would this slave survive the change from sevant to field worker.

Just free the slaves in a den of wolves, Madison and Jefferson understood this, we can see that our founding fathers cared for their slaves, in the case of Jefferson his slaves where better educated, better clothed, and better fed than 90% of the population of the USA. 

To suggest Madison could of freed his slaves shows how little some people know history.


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## Ravi (Mar 21, 2010)

mdn2000 said:


> Just a little bit of reading and its clear Madison did not like slavery. What people do not consider is the times these founding fathers lived in.
> 
> I stated the USA inherited slavery from the rest of the world and am attacked.
> 
> ...


Except...they could have freed them and then offered them employment on their estates where they'd enjoy protection from people that still looked on blacks as subhuman.


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## Coyote (Mar 21, 2010)

mdn2000 said:


> Just a little bit of reading and its clear Madison did not like slavery. What people do not consider is the times these founding fathers lived in.
> 
> *I stated the USA inherited slavery from the rest of the world and am attacked.*
> 
> ...



Having a differing opinion is not "attacking".

The founders were not in agreement on the issue of slavery.  Some were abolitionists and wanted an end to slavery but if they had written that into the constitution they would have lost the slave-holding colonies who's economy was dependent on slavery.  Thus, despite the fact that some did not agree, the abolition of slavery was not included.  Several of them in fact - freed their slaves after they died.  Others remained staunch slave holders.

To use the claim, that Jefferson's slaves where better educated, better clothed, and better fed than 90% of the population of the USA is disengenius.  What is the value of freedom?


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## rikules (Mar 21, 2010)

mdn2000 said:


> rikules said:
> 
> 
> > mdn2000 said:
> ...



mdn: "I have yet to comment on slavery and what is stated about slavery in the bible"


mdn: "Its not an "excuse", slavery is simply as it was, a part of history, brought to all parts of the world not by citizens of the USA but by people of a time much different than our own. Slavery did not develop the constitution but the people who made the USA did, and its those people who set the wheels in motion that ended slavery. The founding fathers did what they could and as history shows the founding fathers were right, the result was an end of slavery in a very short time when compared to the long history of slavery. Thousands of years of slavery ended with few simple words and the brave acts of a few men. "


Me:  that sure LOOKS like a comment on slavery.

perhaps you fell on your head and can no longer remember what you said?




mdn: "I have made no comments on the Secularism"

America is a secular nation.

"I have made no statement nor debated if the USA is a Christian nation."

America is NOT a christian nation.


"Did you slip and hit your head on the floor or are you so pissed you cant figure out which post is written by who. "


Insults are the first resort of an inferior intellect.



mdn: "Rikrules, you have no concept of what is in the bible or what is the constition. You are a victim of the poor educational system that exsists today. Sorry but there is nothing to comment on in your post, it is a sad example of what the Liberal/Marxist have been able to do through education. "


the fact that you would say such deranged things does not reflect well on you.

I know enough of the bible to dismiss it as nonsense

and I know enough of the constitution to know that, outside of the amendments, it is mostly a roberts rules of order for government.


and I know that your arrogance runs neck and neck with your ignorance


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## rikules (Mar 21, 2010)

mdn2000 said:


> Just a little bit of reading and its clear Madison did not like slavery. What people do not consider is the times these founding fathers lived in.
> 
> I stated the USA inherited slavery from the rest of the world and am attacked.
> 
> ...



"I stated the USA inherited slavery from the rest of the world and am attacked."

if you were not such a rude, insulting arrogant snot I would feel sorry for you.

however. the fact  that you so readily insult others make3s me care very little that you were attacked.

in fact

as long as you continue to to be a rude, insulting, arrogant snot I say to one and all...

tora
tora
tora




"Just free the slaves in a den of wolves, Madison and Jefferson understood this, we can see that our founding fathers cared for their slaves, in the case of Jefferson his slaves where better educated, better clothed, and better fed than 90% of the population of the USA.

To suggest Madison could of freed his slaves shows how little some people know history."


There were free blacks in America from its' inception.

slave owners could FREE their slaves

it was done regularly

their was no reason for madison to fear retribution of reprisal merely for freeing slaves.

and none of this changes the facts:

god endorses slavery in a number of passages in the bible
MOST christians embraced slavery and considered it a god-given right
until the 1960s SOUTHERN CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIANS BRUTALIZED, discriminated against and, on occasion, LYNCHED blacks.

any argument against these facts is merely an exercise in stupidity

and  being arrogant  about your stupidity will only make you looker stupider


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## ABikerSailor (Mar 22, 2010)

Yo.......Sick Drools.........if God condones slavery, wanna explain Exodus?


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## Anguille (Mar 22, 2010)

rikules said:


> There were free blacks in America from its' inception.
> 
> slave owners could FREE their slaves
> 
> ...


Madison's father-in-law freed all his slaves.


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## mdn2000 (Mar 22, 2010)

Ravi said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> > Just a little bit of reading and its clear Madison did not like slavery. What people do not consider is the times these founding fathers lived in.
> ...



yet that is exactly what they did, gave them homes, clothes, and food, in Jefferson's case education as well, I would say the same about Madison but I have not learned enough about Madison. I have learned enought about Jefferson though to say the luckiest Negroes in the USA were owned by Jefferson, Jefferson's slaves were better educated than 89% of the whites, they ate better than 89% of the whites, they dressed better than 89% of the whites. 

Of course I am just taking the word of a black man who was working on Monticello, I guess if I was a bigot I would assume he was a liar but the Negro said it with such conviction that I beleive he was telling the truth.

A stupid suggestion, to suggest what a man should of done over two hundred years ago, more idiotic when you consider that the person who made the suggestion is not even being realistic as to the implications of such an action during those treacherous times.

What if Madison told his slaves were free but he would hire them and pay them good, you think the uneducated negro slaves would stay, did they have the education to stay, did they have the intellect, did they understand the nature of the white man that went on to become the KKK, no my young ignorant freind, to free the slaves and offer them jobs is a concept that the Negro of Africa could never comprehend, the desire to be free of the plantation would be to great.

Madison would be known as the idiot that freed slaves only to have the negros murdered or captured by other plantation owners.

What was it that Jefferson said, "its better to hold a wolf by the snout than to let him go", as in the slave would be as dangerous to himself as others would be to the ex-slave.

Naive, ignorant, or hatred of the USA, tell me which, I will not pretend to know.


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## Ravi (Mar 22, 2010)

You need a shovel to dig yourself out from your line of bullshit.


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## mdn2000 (Mar 22, 2010)

Ravi said:


> You need a shovel to dig yourself out from your line of bullshit.



If I had a shovel I would give it to a Negro


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## JakeStarkey (Mar 22, 2010)

I think a "negro" gave it to you in the first place.


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## Old Rocks (Mar 26, 2010)

mdn2000 said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > mdn2000 said:
> ...



Some of the slaves that were sold from Jefferson's estate after Jefferson died were his own children. He only made provision in his wil for the freedom of one of his own children. As much as I admire Jefferson, that is a fact that cannot be erased.


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## mdn2000 (Mar 26, 2010)

Old Rocks said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...



How about a source, a link, a book, Old Crock your great at linking to stuff that proves yourself wrong so how about one of the great Old Crock links. 

Old Crock's egotistical ass is here attempting a cheap shot simply because Old Crock is hiding from the Energy threads. Old Crock, your an expert in Energy yet everything you post I show as nothing more then a rant from an Dementia crazed idiot, where are in those threads, Old Crock ran from everyone of Old Crock's post.

So how about a link, show us how you know Jefferson's heart, give us your incredible insight, explain, please, we all wait, show us how you understand what happened to free slaves living in the south during the time of Jefferson's death, how about a copy of the will, how about a link to the will, tell us about how free slaves were raped or murdered. Prove these were Jefferson's children.

Old Crock, your an asshole, you can't debate, you run from your own posts, 99% of your links disagree with the point you attempt to make.

Old Crock admires a man that allowed his children to be slaves. This says more about Old Crock's judgment than Jefferson.

First this is a Crock of shit, got that Old Crock, Crock of Shit.

No proof, nothing,

Jefferson, a great man maligned after his death, a shame the dead cannot speak.


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 3, 2010)

Here is the summary of Jefferson and the Hemings' children: "Shortly after the DNA test results were released in November 1998, the Thomas Jefferson Foundation formed a research committee consisting of nine members of the foundation staff, including four with Ph.D.s. In January 2000, the committee reported its finding that the weight of all known evidence - from the DNA study, original documents, written and oral historical accounts, and statistical data - indicated a high probability that Thomas Jefferson was the father of Eston Hemings, and that he was perhaps the father of all six of Sally Hemings' children listed in Monticello records - Harriet (born 1795; died in infancy); Beverly (born 1798); an unnamed daughter (born 1799; died in infancy); Harriet (born 1801); Madison (born 1805); and Eston (born 1808).   //////   Since then, a committee commissioned by the Thomas Jefferson Heritage Society, after reviewing essentially the same material, reached different conclusions, namely that Sally Hemings was only a minor figure in Thomas Jefferson's life and that it is very unlikely he fathered any of her children. This committee also suggested in its report, issued in April 2001, that Jefferson's younger brother Randolph (1755-1815) was more likely the father of at least some of Sally Hemings' children."  http://www.monticello.org/plantation/hemingscontro/hemings-jefferson_contro.html

Both groups generally ignore Fawn McKay Brodie's works that swing the weight of evidence to the solid probability that Jefferson fathered some of the children.  All can read Brodie's reasoning in "The Great Jefferson Taboo." _American Heritage _23, no. 4 (1979): 48-57, 97-100;  ---. _Thomas Jefferson: An Intimate History_. New York: Norton, 1974; ---. "Thomas Jefferson's Unknown Grandchildren: A Study in Historical Silence." _American Heritage _27, no. 6 (1976): 23-33, 94-99. 

That she was an historian that tried to meld psychology and history into a discipline remains the major weakness in her works.  A second one is here shrillness.  The great strength was the research into contemporary records, and that's where she locks it up.  TJ was the only Jefferson/Carr DNA donor in attendance at the plantation nine months prior to the births of the six children.  Brodie, flawed as she was, knew that a good historian has to be a records detective, and she was among the best.


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## Mr Natural (Apr 3, 2010)

James Madison was a slave owner.

Fuck him and his Ten Commandments, he wouldn't know right from wrong if it jumped up and bit him on the ass.


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