# Downton Abbey



## George Costanza

Let's talk about Downton Abbey.  I am hooked on it.  I have seen all episodes thus far and am watching them now as they come on every Sunday night.

What is it about DA that you like?  What don't you like?  What do you think about the characters?  What about the plot lines?  Where do you think things are headed for the Crawleys and all of the other fine characters involved in this great series?

I know there are lots out there who watch DA.  I hunted for a thread on it but didn't find one, so thought I would give it a go.

Your impressions of Downton Abbey?


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## Delia

I've only seen the first episode, and it was very good. I intend to watch the rest, but road to hell and all that.


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## Mad Scientist

My wife and I love it! We've already seen Season 3 as it has already aired over there.


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## Sherry

I have a friend at work and we both adore the Victorian Era. Now while DA actually started during the Edwardian Era, it still has a lot of the same qualities. I don't know how I had missed this show, but she started talking about how much I would enjoy it, so I went online and found a site that I was able to watch all three seasons. It was so funny because the day after I finished the "Christmas Special" from season 3, which unlike season 2 had nothing to do with Christmas, Gutfeld made a comment about what a stunner it was on The Five. I_* knew*_ he was my long lost brother.


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## George Costanza

I was Googling around about DA because I wanted to know a bit more about it.  In the course of doing that, I caught a major league spoiler.  It seems that Season 3 has already been shown in the UK.  Some clown was talking about "Sybil's death."  Thanks a lot, mate.  That was prior to last night's episode where, guess what?  Sybil died.


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## uscitizen

Did you see the show about the castle used in Downton Abbey on PBS?


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## George Costanza

uscitizen said:


> Did you see the show about the castle used in Downton Abbey on PBS?



I saw some of the show, but not the part about the castle.  Quite a pad, huh?


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## George Costanza

Probably my favorite characters are Lord and Lady Crawley.  I also like Bates a lot.


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## syrenn

i love the show.


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## boedicca

I love the show, but I am thoroughly sick of Lord Crawley.  Robert is a dim bulb who is very full of himself.

At this point, the evidence that he is an idiot is irrefutable:

1.  His lousy testimony at Bate's trial ensured the latter's conviction.
2.  His making WWI all about himself getting to wear a uniform and be in charge of the action.
3.  His pseudo affair with a maid.
4.  How he lost all of Cora's money by investing all of it in a railroad scheme.
5.  His mismangement of the estate.
6.  And worst of all, how his snobbery in insisting that Lord Tapsell oversee Sybil's labor instead of taking Dr. Clarkson's advice caused Sybil to die.

I can't stand him.  He's an inbred moron.


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## Sarah G

Sybil died of Eclampsia last night.  Poor thing.


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## mudwhistle

Is it anything like Trueblood?


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## Sarah G

I completely broke down when Ethel dropped her little boy off with his grandparents so he would have a better life:



> Ethel, who has fallen into prostitution, meets with Mrs. Hughes and Isobel to offer to give up her illegitimate son, Charlie, to his grandparents, the Bryants. She had rebuffed their earlier attempt to adopt the boy. A meeting is arranged, at which Ethel says goodbye to her son. Then she returns to her wretched life.


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## Sherry

Here's the site for anyone who wants to watch ahead...be sure to go full screen.

Watch Downton Abbey online - Watch Movies Online, Full Movies, Download


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## boedicca

mudwhistle said:


> Is it anything like Trueblood?




Yes!  Only with Zombies instead of Vampires.


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## boedicca

Sarah G said:


> Sybil died of Eclampsia last night.  Poor thing.




Ahem.  Her father the idiot prevented her from getting proper medical care, which contributed to her death.

I can't stand him.


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## Sarah G

boedicca said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sybil died of Eclampsia last night.  Poor thing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ahem.  Her father the idiot prevented her from getting proper medical care, which contributed to her death.
> 
> I can't stand him.
Click to expand...


Now that baby is still alive, right?  We heard a little cry at the end there.


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## George Costanza

boedicca said:


> I love the show, but I am thoroughly sick of Lord Crawley.  Robert is a dim bulb who is very full of himself.
> 
> At this point, the evidence that he is an idiot is irrefutable:
> 
> 1.  His lousy testimony at Bate's trial ensured the latter's conviction.
> 2.  His making WWI all about himself getting to wear a uniform and be in charge of the action.
> 3.  His pseudo affair with a maid.
> 4.  How he lost all of Cora's money by investing all of it in a railroad scheme.
> 5.  His mismangement of the estate.
> 6.  And worst of all, how his snobbery in insisting that Lord Tapsell oversee Sybil's labor instead of taking Dr. Clarkson's advice caused Sybil to die.
> 
> I can't stand him.  He's an inbred moron.



He's HUMAN, for Pete's sake.  That's precisely what I like about him.


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## George Costanza

Sarah G said:


> I completely broke down when Ethel dropped her little boy off with his grandparents so he would have a better life:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ethel, who has fallen into prostitution, meets with Mrs. Hughes and Isobel to offer to give up her illegitimate son, Charlie, to his grandparents, the Bryants. She had rebuffed their earlier attempt to adopt the boy. A meeting is arranged, at which Ethel says goodbye to her son. Then she returns to her wretched life.
Click to expand...


A guaranteed tear jerker.  Just like the scene where the faithful family dog ("Old Shep") dies in the arms of its master or, worse, where the master has to take Old Shep out back and put a pistol to his head.


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## George Costanza

boedicca said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sybil died of Eclampsia last night.  Poor thing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ahem.  Her father the idiot prevented her from getting proper medical care, which contributed to her death.
> 
> I can't stand him.
Click to expand...


You got me there.  I didn't like that either.  But, as I said, he's human.  I'll tell you who I really didn't like in that scenario - it was the pompous family doctor who refused to send Sybil to the hospital.  Malpractice CITY.  In today's world . . . .


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## George Costanza

Sarah G said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sybil died of Eclampsia last night.  Poor thing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ahem.  Her father the idiot prevented her from getting proper medical care, which contributed to her death.
> 
> I can't stand him.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Now that baby is still alive, right?  We heard a little cry at the end there.
Click to expand...


Baby is alive and well.  A little girl.  In latest episode, it shows Dad (Tom) standing in a window, crying (of course) and holding the baby in his arms.


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## Sarah G

George Costanza said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> I completely broke down when Ethel dropped her little boy off with his grandparents so he would have a better life:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ethel, who has fallen into prostitution, meets with Mrs. Hughes and Isobel to offer to give up her illegitimate son, Charlie, to his grandparents, the Bryants. She had rebuffed their earlier attempt to adopt the boy. A meeting is arranged, at which Ethel says goodbye to her son. Then she returns to her wretched life.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> A guaranteed tear jerker.  Just like the scene where the faithful family dog ("Old Shep") dies in the arms of its master or, worse, where the master has to take Old Shep out back and put a pistol to his head.
Click to expand...


Oh don't get me started..  Marley.


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## ChloeP80

Sybil's father takes her outside and puts a pistol to her head??!  Guess I shouldn't have read this before watching season 3! (It's ok, I'd been told already) But I love this show, love anything from that era, interesting to see the British class system becoming extinct after WW1.


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## Sarah G

ChloeP80 said:


> Sybil's father takes her outside and puts a pistol to her head??!  Guess I shouldn't have read this before watching season 3! (It's ok, I'd been told already) But I love this show, love anything from that era, interesting to see the British class system becoming extinct after WW1.



Are we supposed to wait weeks for you to catch up before talking about it?


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## George Costanza

ChloeP80 said:


> Sybil's father takes her outside and puts a pistol to her head??!  Guess I shouldn't have read this before watching season 3! (It's ok, I'd been told already) But I love this show, love anything from that era, interesting to see the British class system becoming extinct after WW1.



Shirley you jest.  (I know - don't call me Surely).  You do know how Sybil dies, right?  Or are you speaking figuratively with regartd to Lord Grantham's role in her tragic death?

Bad show for the high society doc.  In today's society, there would have been a huge malpractice suit.


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## George Costanza

Sarah G said:


> ChloeP80 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sybil's father takes her outside and puts a pistol to her head??!  Guess I shouldn't have read this before watching season 3! (It's ok, I'd been told already) But I love this show, love anything from that era, interesting to see the British class system becoming extinct after WW1.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are we supposed to wait weeks for you to catch up before talking about it?
Click to expand...


Now, Sarah - go easy on her.  I have mentioned how I generally wait two to six years before even starting to watch a series.  Did this with Seinfeld, The Sopranos, Breaking Bad and, yes, even Downton Abbey.


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## Flopper

uscitizen said:


> Did you see the show about the castle used in Downton Abbey on PBS?


Yes.  The real Downton Abbey is Highclere Castle.  The Saloon is gorgeous.  On TV, you miss the balcony which surrounds the the room.

Highclere Castle, Earl of Carnarvon, Egyptian antiquities, State Rooms


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## Flopper

If you like Donwton Abbey, you would probably like Upstairs Downstairs.  There're quite similar. The writers of both series create interesting plots and subplots involving the aristocracy upstairs and service personnel downstairs.  Both productions are about the social changes in first half of the 20th century and how it effects the working work class and the aristocracy.  Upstairs Downstairs ran from 1971-75 and it's available on DVD.  There was a remake but I don't think it was as good as the original.


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## George Costanza

Flopper said:


> If you like Donwton Abbey, you would probably like Upstairs Downstairs.  There're quite similar. The writers of both series create interesting plots and subplots involving the aristocracy upstairs and service personnel downstairs.  Both productions are about the social changes in first half of the 20th century and how it effects the working work class and the aristocracy.  Upstairs Downstairs ran from 1971-75 and it's available on DVD.  There was a remake but I don't think it was as good as the original.



Thanks very much.  I am currently up to date in all serires, having completed Mad Men and Breaking Bad.  Am currently watching Downton on a weekly basis as the shows come on.

Sooooo . . . . being a faithful Netflixer, I have placed Upstairs Downstairs into my active shows.  This morning, I started Season 1, Episode 1.  Immediate reaction?  The producers of Downton Abbey seem to have set out to reproduce Upstairs Downstairs on a character-for-character basis.  So far, I have been able to identiy half a dozen identical characters, with pretty much the same attitudes as those on Downton.  Fascinating.

Only downside - no HD.  But, since I am "between series," I will indeed give this one a shot.  Thanks again.


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## Flopper

George Costanza said:


> Flopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you like Donwton Abbey, you would probably like Upstairs Downstairs.  There're quite similar. The writers of both series create interesting plots and subplots involving the aristocracy upstairs and service personnel downstairs.  Both productions are about the social changes in first half of the 20th century and how it effects the working work class and the aristocracy.  Upstairs Downstairs ran from 1971-75 and it's available on DVD.  There was a remake but I don't think it was as good as the original.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks very much.  I am currently up to date in all serires, having completed Mad Men and Breaking Bad.  Am currently watching Downton on a weekly basis as the shows come on.
> 
> Sooooo . . . . being a faithful Netflixer, I have placed Upstairs Downstairs into my active shows.  This morning, I started Season 1, Episode 1.  Immediate reaction?  The producers of Downton Abbey seem to have set out to reproduce Upstairs Downstairs on a character-for-character basis.  So far, I have been able to identiy half a dozen identical characters, with pretty much the same attitudes as those on Downton.  Fascinating.
> 
> Only downside - no HD.  But, since I am "between series," I will indeed give this one a shot.  Thanks again.
Click to expand...

Yes, I thought the same thing.  Downton seems like an adaption of Upstairs Downstairs.  The time frame is a little different.  UD starts with the turn of the century and ends just before WWII.  They all hit on the same social issues and have wonderfully characters.


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## Ravi

Help me out here.

I watched season one on netflix, no problems.

I watched season two on hulu, no problems.

I watched season 3, episodes 1 - 3, on PBS no problems.

Episode 4 kept stopping, but watchable. Episode 5 stops every 30 seconds until I got so frustrated I threw my computer in the pool.

Same computer.


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## Sarah G

Ravi said:


> Help me out here.
> 
> I watched season one on netflix, no problems.
> 
> I watched season two on hulu, no problems.
> 
> I watched season 3, episodes 1 - 3, on PBS no problems.
> 
> Episode 4 kept stopping, but watchable. Episode 5 stops every 30 seconds until I got so frustrated I threw my computer in the pool.
> 
> Same computer.



God psycho.


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## Ravi

Sarah G said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Help me out here.
> 
> I watched season one on netflix, no problems.
> 
> I watched season two on hulu, no problems.
> 
> I watched season 3, episodes 1 - 3, on PBS no problems.
> 
> Episode 4 kept stopping, but watchable. Episode 5 stops every 30 seconds until I got so frustrated I threw my computer in the pool.
> 
> Same computer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> God psycho.
Click to expand...

She must hate me. It was awful enough to see who died in episode 4. Now this.


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## Sarah G

Ravi said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Help me out here.
> 
> I watched season one on netflix, no problems.
> 
> I watched season two on hulu, no problems.
> 
> I watched season 3, episodes 1 - 3, on PBS no problems.
> 
> Episode 4 kept stopping, but watchable. Episode 5 stops every 30 seconds until I got so frustrated I threw my computer in the pool.
> 
> Same computer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> God psycho.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> She must hate me. It was awful enough to see who died in episode 4. Now this.
Click to expand...


Not mentioning the prostitute who gave up her son to the grandparents.


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## George Costanza

Ravi said:


> Help me out here.
> 
> I watched season one on netflix, no problems.
> 
> I watched season two on hulu, no problems.
> 
> I watched season 3, episodes 1 - 3, on PBS no problems.
> 
> Episode 4 kept stopping, but watchable. Episode 5 stops every 30 seconds until I got so frustrated I threw my computer in the pool.
> 
> Same computer.



Are you watching all of this on your computer or on a flat screen in some other room with a wireless connection?  I am doing the latter and had the problem you are describing.  I solved the problem by increasing my bandwidth.  Call your Internet connection provider and see if you are max'd out or if you can purchase a higher bandwidth.  I thought I had the max but didn't.  I increased it and no more problems with any of the streaming programs (Netflix, VuDu, etc.).

Even if you are watching on your computer, low bandwidth may still be the problem.  You might want to call Netflix and, if you can connect with a human, see what they have to say.

First, though, retrieve your computer from your pool and dry it off . . . .


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## George Costanza

Dr Grump said:


> George Costanza said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was Googling around about DA because I wanted to know a bit more about it.  In the course of doing that, I caught a major league spoiler.  It seems that Season 3 has already been shown in the UK.  Some clown was talking about "Sybil's death."  Thanks a lot, mate.  That was prior to last night's episode where, guess what?  Sybil died.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks George. I was about to start watching Season 3...;o(
Click to expand...


Sorry, man.  Cheer up, though.  Even though you know it's coming, the circumstances of the death are most interesting and serve as the starting point for future drama.


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## George Costanza

Sarah G said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> God psycho.
> 
> 
> 
> She must hate me. It was awful enough to see who died in episode 4. Now this.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not mentioning the prostitute who gave up her son to the grandparents.
Click to expand...


That really got to you, didn't it?  I have a suggestion.  Get some popcorn, some hot chocolate, snuggle up in front of the telly and watch a rerun of "Terms of Endearment."
You'll feel so much better.


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## Zander

I love the show. 

It transports me to another time and place for one superb, enjoyable hour on Sunday evening!  It is filled with English pageantry and elegance, pomp and circumstance.  

It's like I get a voyeuristic first hand look at all the formality and protocol that these families and their staff endured. The ennui must have been exhausting for the Lords and Ladies!  

I love that we get to see the world through the servants eyes as well (it is much better than Upstairs/Downstairs). They remind us that there is dignity in service. 

Lastly the actual castle is a character in and of itself. It imbues the entire show with a sense of reverence, and respect for the past.... It is a beautiful place with gorgeous grounds and a stunning interior. The art work, furniture, wall coverings, cutlery, dishes, serving tables, lamps, etc.....perfect to the most minute detail. 

I think it's brilliantly done. 

Love, love , love it!


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## MikeK

George Costanza said:


> Let's talk about Downton Abbey.  I am hooked on it.  I have seen all episodes thus far and am watching them now as they come on every Sunday night.
> 
> What is it about DA that you like?  What don't you like?  What do you think about the characters?  What about the plot lines?  Where do you think things are headed for the Crawleys and all of the other fine characters involved in this great series?
> 
> I know there are lots out there who watch DA.  I hunted for a thread on it but didn't find one, so thought I would give it a go.
> 
> Your impressions of Downton Abbey?


I can't think of anything I've ever watched on television that I enjoyed as much as I enjoy Downton Abbey, which is first rate in every way; cast, script, costumes, sets, direction.  Everything!

Tonight's two-hour episode was especially eventful: Bates walks out of prison looking like Lord Chesterfield, Branson is being absorbed by the family, Lydia is embarking on a scandalous love affair, Lady Crawley and the Dowager rescue Ethel the maid from despair, Thomas is exposed, condemned, then rescued by Bates.  

Too bad about Sybil, who will be missed.


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## ChloeP80

Sarah G said:


> ChloeP80 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sybil's father takes her outside and puts a pistol to her head??!  Guess I shouldn't have read this before watching season 3! (It's ok, I'd been told already) But I love this show, love anything from that era, interesting to see the British class system becoming extinct after WW1.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are we supposed to wait weeks for you to catch up before talking about it?
Click to expand...


Nah, I was joking!


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## Sarah G

ChloeP80 said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ChloeP80 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sybil's father takes her outside and puts a pistol to her head??!  Guess I shouldn't have read this before watching season 3! (It's ok, I'd been told already) But I love this show, love anything from that era, interesting to see the British class system becoming extinct after WW1.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are we supposed to wait weeks for you to catch up before talking about it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nah, I was joking!
Click to expand...


Well, I didn't watch this week's yet so nobody can talk about it..


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## Sarah G

Jezzz kidden..


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## Mad Scientist

When I found out season 3 had already aired in England, I went and downloaded them all from a secret place on Dark Side of the Web and my Wife and I watched it all in about a week.

Apparently I'm exactly 2 days older than Hugh Bonneville (Lord Grantham).


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## Swagger

I'd rather listen to my father rap than watch an episode of Downton Abbey. It's the biggest pile of wank I've ever seen.


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## MikeK

Swagger said:


> I'd rather listen to my father rap than watch an episode of Downton Abbey. It's the biggest pile of wank I've ever seen.


Actually I had wondered what your opinion might be inasmucn as you are a Brit and all that the nobility was (and is) has a different ring to you than to us -- as I can well understand.

I have no illusions that any such warmly cohesive and genuinely affectionate relationship ever did, or could, exist between an aristocratic household and its servants.  At the back of my mind I fully realize that Downton Abbey is a fairy tale presentation of circumstances contemporary with the Edwardian era.  As such at the front of my mind I allow myself the luxury (and momentary escape) of accepting and enjoying it for what it is.  A play.  

As an American, thus far removed from any such trappings as _frank_ and _unmitigated_ aristocracy, I am able to appreciate it as an honest and uncomplicated view of the same reality which exists here but is covertly defined by wealth and political power rather than by noble title.  There and then the situation was overtly defined, leaving nothing to question.  One knew one's place and exactly what was required in and of it.  

Here and now the same circumstances exist but the rules are not so clearly defined.  We enjoy the luxury of comfortable self-delusion.


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## Sarah G

Swagger said:


> I'd rather listen to my father rap than watch an episode of Downton Abbey. It's the biggest pile of wank I've ever seen.



You're nutz.  That show is good!


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## MikeK

Regrettably, because I was involved with other things during its time frame, I paid no attention at all to the three-year production of _Upstairs / Downstairs_ but I intend to buy the CD collection (probably as present to myself next Christmas).  In the meantime I did manage to watch (and record) the eight episodes of the re-make, which seems rather abbreviated.  I'm wondering if they intend to leave it at that or if a continuation is to follow.  

If I had seen the original I might have been made aware much sooner of the fascination many Americans (including I) have with the human element of the relationship between the declining British nobility and its servant class, which, until recently, had been perceived by us as robotic anonymities who answered doors in formal dress, carried trays, and made beds.  

The first movie I saw which imparted human and social identity to these formerly transparent accessory beings was _Gosford Park._  Trailer here, compliments of YouTube:  [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwtZuGvawwY]Gosford Park Trailer - YouTube[/ame]

While _Gosford Park,_ which is an excellent movie, did evoke firm awareness of the human reality of the Edwardian servant class, the main theme of the film is the telling of a tale rather than in-depth examination of a particular social order, its class distinctions and their human relationships.  But a powerful exception to that exclusion is _The Remains of The Day,_ in which brilliant performances by Anthony Hopkins and Emma Thompson closely examine the conditioned mindset of the archetypal butler in an aristocratic pre-WWII British household.  

Another trailer, compliments of YouTube:  [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdTI5s5-PwA]The Remains Of The Day - OFFICIAL TRAILER - YouTube[/ame]


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## Sarah G

Next week is the season finale already.


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## MikeK

Sarah G said:


> Next week is the season finale already.


That is sad.  Downton Abbey is as rare and delicious an escape from the reality of now as it gets.  There are no _Mr. Carsons_, no _Mrs. Patmores_, no _Daisys_, and no _Grantham Dowagers_ in the real world.    

I was afraid the end is near, as last night's two-hour episode ominously predicted.  So where will I go to get away for an hour?


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## Sarah G

MikeK said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> Next week is the season finale already.
> 
> 
> 
> That is sad.  Downton Abbey is as rare and delicious an escape from the reality of now as it gets.  There are no _Mr. Carsons_, no _Mrs. Patmores_, no _Daisys_, and no _Grantham Dowagers_ in the real world.
> 
> I was afraid the end is near, as last night's two-hour episode ominously predicted.  So where will I go to get away for an hour?
Click to expand...


There's a three part miniseries called Parades End on HBO starting Feb. 26.  There are good things here and there throughout the year.


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## boedicca

George Costanza said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> I love the show, but I am thoroughly sick of Lord Crawley.  Robert is a dim bulb who is very full of himself.
> 
> At this point, the evidence that he is an idiot is irrefutable:
> 
> 1.  His lousy testimony at Bate's trial ensured the latter's conviction.
> 2.  His making WWI all about himself getting to wear a uniform and be in charge of the action.
> 3.  His pseudo affair with a maid.
> 4.  How he lost all of Cora's money by investing all of it in a railroad scheme.
> 5.  His mismangement of the estate.
> 6.  And worst of all, how his snobbery in insisting that Lord Tapsell oversee Sybil's labor instead of taking Dr. Clarkson's advice caused Sybil to die.
> 
> I can't stand him.  He's an inbred moron.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He's HUMAN, for Pete's sake.  That's precisely what I like about him.
Click to expand...



He's a pompous nincompoop.


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## boedicca

Mad Scientist said:


> When I found out season 3 had already aired in England, I went and downloaded them all from a secret place on Dark Side of the Web and my Wife and I watched it all in about a week.
> 
> Apparently I'm exactly 2 days older than Hugh Bonneville (Lord Grantham).




But I bet you're a hell of a lot smarter than His Lordship.


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## boedicca

MikeK said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> Next week is the season finale already.
> 
> 
> 
> That is sad.  Downton Abbey is as rare and delicious an escape from the reality of now as it gets.  There are no _Mr. Carsons_, no _Mrs. Patmores_, no _Daisys_, and no _Grantham Dowagers_ in the real world.
> 
> I was afraid the end is near, as last night's two-hour episode ominously predicted.  So where will I go to get away for an hour?
Click to expand...



Maggie Smith is the best.  She gets the most fabulous one-liner zingers in the scripts.


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## Sarah G

I don't know if any of you remember the movie Ordinary People but Elizabeth McGovern was in that.  She was Timothy Hutton's girlfriend now she's Cora Crawley.

Such good parts from way back.


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## MikeK

Sarah G said:


> There's a three part miniseries called Parades End on HBO starting Feb. 26.  There are good things here and there throughout the year.


What is it about?


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## Zander

I was in heaven for 2 hours last night..... and absolutely loved the episode.  Everything worked out great!  Even Lady Edith's fortunes are on the upswing! (You have to admit that she looked great in that Cream and Green ensemble!)  They resolved a whole slew of issues....and the turnabout with O'Brian and Barrow was OH so satisfying....she's a mean one!!!  

Anyway..they should have ended the season last night!! 

Now I know something bad is going to happen next episode.......


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## Sarah G

MikeK said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> There's a three part miniseries called Parades End on HBO starting Feb. 26.  There are good things here and there throughout the year.
> 
> 
> 
> What is it about?
Click to expand...


I guess it's a 5 part series.  WWI miniseries.

HBO


----------



## boedicca

Zander said:


> I was in heaven for 2 hours last night..... and absolutely loved the episode.  Everything worked out great!  Even Lady Edith's fortunes are on the upswing! (You have to admit that she looked great in that Cream and Green ensemble!)  They resolved a whole slew of issues....and the turnabout with O'Brian and Barrow was OH so satisfying....she's a mean one!!!
> 
> Anyway..they should have ended the season last night!!
> 
> Now I know something bad is going to happen next episode.......





Does this mean you are predicting defeat in the Cricket Match?   Forsooth!

I'm liking Thomas these days.  He doesn't have a victim mentality.    And I do believe the Soap Nemesis is going to pay a visit to O'Brien.  She's due for a major Karma Bitch Slap.


----------



## Zander

boedicca said:


> Zander said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was in heaven for 2 hours last night..... and absolutely loved the episode.  Everything worked out great!  Even Lady Edith's fortunes are on the upswing! (You have to admit that she looked great in that Cream and Green ensemble!)  They resolved a whole slew of issues....and the turnabout with O'Brian and Barrow was OH so satisfying....she's a mean one!!!
> 
> Anyway..they should have ended the season last night!!
> 
> Now I know something bad is going to happen next episode.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does this mean you are predicting defeat in the Cricket Match?   Forsooth!
> 
> I'm liking Thomas these days.  He doesn't have a victim mentality.    And I do believe the Soap Nemesis is going to pay a visit to O'Brien.  She's due for a major Karma Bitch Slap.
Click to expand...

Lose the cricket match? Oh dear, of course not. The House must prevail!! 

As for O'Brian...yeah that one has a long overdue comeuppance...we can all "sit back and enjoy it" as she crumbles.......


----------



## MikeK

Zander said:


> I was in heaven for 2 hours last night..... and absolutely loved the episode.  Everything worked out great!  Even Lady Edith's fortunes are on the upswing! (You have to admit that she looked great in that Cream and Green ensemble!)  They resolved a whole slew of issues....and the turnabout with O'Brian and Barrow was OH so satisfying....she's a mean one!!!
> 
> Anyway..they should have ended the season last night!!
> 
> Now I know something bad is going to happen next episode.......


Lady Edith apparently is about to embark on a love affair with a married man, which was seriously scandalous in her time and place.  So that doesn't look too promising -- unless that fellow's wife dies.

And it would be nice if Thomas Barrow responded to Bates' magnanimous gesture by reciprocating in some way that compensates for all the rotten things he'd done.  But even Mr. Bates noble kindness can't change the spots on a sociopath, so I'm not too sure Thomas has turned about.  

As for O'Brien, she must somehow be punished for what she did to Lady Grantham.  And that hopeful contingency alone makes me think we might be looking forward to another season.


----------



## ChloeP80

Swagger said:


> I'd rather listen to my father rap than watch an episode of Downton Abbey. It's the biggest pile of wank I've ever seen.



Don't sit on the fence about it, tell us how you really feel....


----------



## George Costanza

MikeK said:


> Zander said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was in heaven for 2 hours last night..... and absolutely loved the episode.  Everything worked out great!  Even Lady Edith's fortunes are on the upswing! (You have to admit that she looked great in that Cream and Green ensemble!)  They resolved a whole slew of issues....and the turnabout with O'Brian and Barrow was OH so satisfying....she's a mean one!!!
> 
> Anyway..they should have ended the season last night!!
> 
> Now I know something bad is going to happen next episode.......
> 
> 
> 
> Lady Edith apparently is about to embark on a love affair with a married man, which was seriously scandalous in her time and place.  So that doesn't look too promising -- unless that fellow's wife dies.
> 
> And it would be nice if Thomas Barrow responded to Bates' magnanimous gesture by reciprocating in some way that compensates for all the rotten things he'd done.  But even Mr. Bates noble kindness can't change the spots on a sociopath, so I'm not too sure Thomas has turned about.
> 
> As for O'Brien, she must somehow be punished for what she did to Lady Grantham.  And that hopeful contingency alone makes me think we might be looking forward to another season.
Click to expand...


I have it on good authority that there is indeed going to be another season.  Trust me . . . I'm a lawyer . . . .


----------



## George Costanza

MikeK said:


> I have no illusions that any such warmly cohesive and genuinely affectionate relationship ever did, or could, exist between an aristocratic household and its servants.



Not so sure I agree with you on that one, old sport.  I have heard too many stories of very close, personal relationships that formed between (believe this one if you dare) plantation owners and household slaves.  (Save the cracks about Thomas Jefferson - I'm talking about genuine relationships based on more than physical stuff.  Not that Thomas Jefferson's relationship with Sally Hemings was not genuine, because I think it most certainly was.)  Nannys can become almost members of the family.  

I'm sure that the relationships depicted in DA were entirely possible.  But not in all cases.  Consider how difficult it was (and still is) for Lord Crawley to accept Thomas, a former footman who had the audacity to marry his daughter.


----------



## Delia

Swagger said:


> I'd rather listen to my father rap than watch an episode of Downton Abbey. It's the biggest pile of wank I've ever seen.



.......... Because?


----------



## George Costanza

Thoughts on the final episode?


----------



## IlarMeilyr

George will next provide a stirring tribute to the deeper spiritual meanings in the scripts of General Hospital.


----------



## George Costanza

IlarMeilyr said:


> George will next provide a stirring tribute to the deeper spiritual meanings in the scripts of General Hospital.



Yeah, yeah . . . so what did you think of the final episode?


----------



## Sarah G

George Costanza said:


> Thoughts on the final episode?



Now the Crawleys have all the money again, do I have that right?


----------



## Sarah G

Oh that's right, he was a Crawley too but now Mary will rule the roost.


----------



## IlarMeilyr

George Costanza said:


> IlarMeilyr said:
> 
> 
> 
> George will next provide a stirring tribute to the deeper spiritual meanings in the scripts of General Hospital.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, yeah . . . so what did you think of the final episode?
Click to expand...


I saw several episodes.  I grew tired of it.

I didn't see the finale.


----------



## Big Black Dog

George Costanza said:


> Let's talk about Downton Abbey.  I am hooked on it.  I have seen all episodes thus far and am watching them now as they come on every Sunday night.
> 
> What is it about DA that you like?  What don't you like?  What do you think about the characters?  What about the plot lines?  Where do you think things are headed for the Crawleys and all of the other fine characters involved in this great series?
> 
> I know there are lots out there who watch DA.  I hunted for a thread on it but didn't find one, so thought I would give it a go.
> 
> Your impressions of Downton Abbey?



I like the show and think it's great entertainment.  Have no idea where it's going or where it might end.  I first saw it while on vacation in England while we were staying at the Royal Horse Guards Hotel in London.  Since then, both my wife and I have been hooked on it.  I hope it lasts for many more seasons.


----------



## MikeK

Sarah G said:


> Oh that's right, he was a Crawley too but now Mary will rule the roost.


Presuming the inheritance laws are the same as here, that's true.  But we already know her thoughts on the matter of preserving the Abbey's integrity so there isn't much she can do to assert her newly acquired leverage.  

But it will be interesting to see who comes into her life now.  






. . . Branson?


----------



## George Costanza

For one thing, I thought the photography was excellent.  They filmed a lot more scenes in this episode of castles, the countryside - even the fair.  Just a pleasure to look at, especially in HD.  And the CARS.  Did you notice those two beauties they drove back to Downton Abbey in from Scotland?  Great stuff.


----------



## George Costanza

Thank you.


----------



## IlarMeilyr

My friend looked forward to that show.   Brief season.  But when she heard that George is so up on it, she concluded that George is probably quite homosexual.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.


----------



## syrenn

George Costanza said:


> For one thing, I thought the photography was excellent.  They filmed a lot more scenes in this episode of castles, the countryside - even the fair.  Just a pleasure to look at, especially in HD.  And the CARS.  Did you notice those two beauties they drove back to Downton Abbey in from Scotland?  Great stuff.



i enjoy the period detail as well.....  Its been very well done.


----------



## Sherry

I think Matthew was Mary's one true love, and no other will quite be able to fill his shoes. She is going to dote on her son, who will be a constant reminder of his father...also he is the future heir of Downton.


----------



## IlarMeilyr

Public Notice.

When I offered a couple of jocular comments in this thread, I had not realized it was in the Clean Debate Zone with all of it's special rules.

I believe I am now obligated to offer the appropriate words of regret:

Whooops.

Downton Abbey needs something.  It has Maggie Smith.  It needs Emma Watson.


----------



## Sarah G

Sherry said:


> I think Matthew was Mary's one true love, and no other will quite be able to fill his shoes. She is going to dote on her son, who will be a constant reminder of his father...also he is the future heir of Downton.





Wasn't she in love with another guy who died before becoming engaged to Matthew?  She and Matthew hated each other at first then they grew to love each other.  She is young and beautiful, I doubt she'll whither on the vine.  Although she may begin to mistrust men's motives because she is now wealthy.

When the new season begins, it will be 6 months after Matthews death so we will know pretty quickly how she has coped.


----------



## Delia

IlarMeilyr said:


> Public Notice.
> 
> When I offered a couple of jocular comments in this thread, I had not realized it was in the Clean Debate Zone with all of it's special rules.
> 
> I believe I am now obligated to offer the appropriate words of regret:
> 
> Whooops.
> 
> Downton Abbey needs something.  It has Maggie Smith.  It needs Emma Watson.



What? No it's not. It's in the TV folder. Clean Debate is way the heck at the other end of the board.

In other news, I love Emma Watson. Although I wouldn't want to go through life with the initials EW.


----------



## IlarMeilyr

Hm.  I thought it said Clean debate earlier today.  That's why I felt so guilty.

Now I feel better.  But I still have to stop teasing George.

George, I was just messing around.


----------



## MikeK

Sarah G said:


> Sherry said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think Matthew was Mary's one true love, and no other will quite be able to fill his shoes. She is going to dote on her son, who will be a constant reminder of his father...also he is the future heir of Downton.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wasn't she in love with another guy who died before becoming engaged to Matthew?  She and Matthew hated each other at first then they grew to love each other.  She is young and beautiful, I doubt she'll whither on the vine.  Although she may begin to mistrust men's motives because she is now wealthy.
> 
> When the new season begins, it will be 6 months after Matthews death so we will know pretty quickly how she has coped.
Click to expand...

Having grown accustomed to Julian Fellowes' technique of turnabouts and surprising ironies, the more I think about it the more inclined I am to expect Branson and Lady Mary to get it on.  After all, Branson is now the Estate Manager, which puts him in close and constant contact with her via her money.  

As you've said, she is young and beautiful, and considering her response to the Turk who hopped into her bed we know she is horny.  And Branson is a handsome, virile young man.  All it will take is one _right moment_, opportunity on a fragrant summer night, and a cocktail or two.  And, irony of ironies, one of the last vestiges of British Empire will dissolve with an Irish chauffeur prevailing de facto over Downton Abbey.    

And the series will close with Lord Grantham and Mr. Carson retiring to the library and drinking themselves into a permanent stupor.


----------



## Sarah G

MikeK said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sherry said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think Matthew was Mary's one true love, and no other will quite be able to fill his shoes. She is going to dote on her son, who will be a constant reminder of his father...also he is the future heir of Downton.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wasn't she in love with another guy who died before becoming engaged to Matthew?  She and Matthew hated each other at first then they grew to love each other.  She is young and beautiful, I doubt she'll whither on the vine.  Although she may begin to mistrust men's motives because she is now wealthy.
> 
> When the new season begins, it will be 6 months after Matthews death so we will know pretty quickly how she has coped.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Having grown accustomed to Julian Fellowes' technique of turnabouts and surprising ironies, the more I think about it the more inclined I am to expect Branson and Lady Mary to get it on.  After all, Branson is now the Estate Manager, which puts him in close and constant contact with her via her money.
> 
> As you've said, she is young and beautiful, and considering her response to the Turk who hopped into her bed we know she is horny.  And Branson is a handsome, virile young man.  All it will take is one _right moment_, opportunity on a fragrant summer night, and a cocktail or two.  And, irony of ironies, one of the last vestiges of British Empire will dissolve with an Irish chauffeur prevailing de facto over Downton Abbey.
> 
> And the series will close with Lord Grantham and Mr. Carson retiring to the library and drinking themselves into a permanent stupor.
Click to expand...


Branson is kind of weak for Mary, I hope it's someone brand new and sexy.  Here's a little spoiler, we don't know who it is but production for season 4 begins in a couple of weeks and suitors are being auditioned for Mary.

?Downton Abbey? Season 4: A love interest for 



Spoiler



being auditioned - Zap2it


----------



## MikeK

Sarah G said:


> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wasn't she in love with another guy who died before becoming engaged to Matthew?  She and Matthew hated each other at first then they grew to love each other.  She is young and beautiful, I doubt she'll whither on the vine.  Although she may begin to mistrust men's motives because she is now wealthy.
> 
> When the new season begins, it will be 6 months after Matthews death so we will know pretty quickly how she has coped.
> 
> 
> 
> Having grown accustomed to Julian Fellowes' technique of turnabouts and surprising ironies, the more I think about it the more inclined I am to expect Branson and Lady Mary to get it on.  After all, Branson is now the Estate Manager, which puts him in close and constant contact with her via her money.
> 
> As you've said, she is young and beautiful, and considering her response to the Turk who hopped into her bed we know she is horny.  And Branson is a handsome, virile young man.  All it will take is one _right moment_, opportunity on a fragrant summer night, and a cocktail or two.  And, irony of ironies, one of the last vestiges of British Empire will dissolve with an Irish chauffeur prevailing de facto over Downton Abbey.
> 
> And the series will close with Lord Grantham and Mr. Carson retiring to the library and drinking themselves into a permanent stupor.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Branson is kind of weak for Mary, I hope it's someone brand new and sexy.  Here's a little spoiler, we don't know who it is but production for season 4 begins in a couple of weeks and suitors are being auditioned for Mary.
> 
> ?Downton Abbey? Season 4: A love interest for
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> being auditioned - Zap2it
Click to expand...




Spoiler



Okay.  I'll defer to a woman's appraisal of that situation.  

(Another chauffeur, maybe?)


----------



## George Costanza

IlarMeilyr said:


> Hm.  I thought it said Clean debate earlier today.  That's why I felt so guilty.
> 
> Now I feel better.  But I still have to stop teasing George.
> 
> George, I was just messing around.



I kind of figured you were.  That's OK - as I said in PM, no harm done.  

No, this isn't Clean Debate zone, but as they say, "we're trying to have a serious discussion here."  If this had been any other thread, I wouldn't have batted an eye.  (Not that I'm an eye batter, you understand.  Not that there's anything wrong with that.  )


----------



## George Costanza

Sarah G said:


> Sherry said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think Matthew was Mary's one true love, and no other will quite be able to fill his shoes. She is going to dote on her son, who will be a constant reminder of his father...also he is the future heir of Downton.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wasn't she in love with another guy who died before becoming engaged to Matthew?  She and Matthew hated each other at first then they grew to love each other.  She is young and beautiful, I doubt she'll whither on the vine.  Although she may begin to mistrust men's motives because she is now wealthy.
> 
> When the new season begins, it will be 6 months after Matthews death so we will know pretty quickly how she has coped.
Click to expand...


She was indeed - I think he either went down on the Titanic or got killed/MIA in WW I.  And yes, she and Matthew did not get on well at all at first.

What's this business about men's motives, BTW?  We have no MOTIVES, by God!  I am SHOCKED you would think such a thing.


----------



## George Costanza

MikeK said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sherry said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think Matthew was Mary's one true love, and no other will quite be able to fill his shoes. She is going to dote on her son, who will be a constant reminder of his father...also he is the future heir of Downton.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wasn't she in love with another guy who died before becoming engaged to Matthew?  She and Matthew hated each other at first then they grew to love each other.  She is young and beautiful, I doubt she'll whither on the vine.  Although she may begin to mistrust men's motives because she is now wealthy.
> 
> When the new season begins, it will be 6 months after Matthews death so we will know pretty quickly how she has coped.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Having grown accustomed to Julian Fellowes' technique of turnabouts and surprising ironies, the more I think about it the more inclined I am to expect Branson and Lady Mary to get it on.  After all, Branson is now the Estate Manager, which puts him in close and constant contact with her via her money.
> 
> As you've said, she is young and beautiful, and considering her response to the Turk who hopped into her bed we know she is horny.  And Branson is a handsome, virile young man.  All it will take is one _right moment_, opportunity on a fragrant summer night, and a cocktail or two.  And, irony of ironies, one of the last vestiges of British Empire will dissolve with an Irish chauffeur prevailing de facto over Downton Abbey.
> 
> And the series will close with Lord Grantham and Mr. Carson retiring to the library and drinking themselves into a permanent stupor.
Click to expand...


How could you miss something so obvious?  Thomas BARROW is going to end up squiring Mary into the sunset.  That's why he was built up so much in the final episode of Season 3, by coming to the aid of the other servant (Jimmy Kent) and getting the hell beat out of him under the bridge by the two bullies.

Wait a minute . . . . Oh? . . . . . . He IS? . . . . . Hmmmmm . . . . . Well, then, I guess . . . . 

Never mind.


----------



## George Costanza

Is anyone else having trouble figuring out where Mrs. O'Brien is coming from?  In early episodes, I had her pegged for being one of the female villains, what with her friendship with Thomas Barrow and all of the dirty tricks the two of them pulled.  Remember when she caused Lady Crawley to take a spill as she got out of the bathtub?

And yet, in recent episodes, we see her changing a bit.  She still is motivated largely by self-interest, but her partners in crime relationship with Barrow seems to be cooling and she has actually been seen doing some fairly nice things.

For that matter, what about Barrow himself?  He too is becoming a tad more likeable, isn't he?


----------



## Sarah G

George Costanza said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sherry said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think Matthew was Mary's one true love, and no other will quite be able to fill his shoes. She is going to dote on her son, who will be a constant reminder of his father...also he is the future heir of Downton.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wasn't she in love with another guy who died before becoming engaged to Matthew?  She and Matthew hated each other at first then they grew to love each other.  She is young and beautiful, I doubt she'll whither on the vine.  Although she may begin to mistrust men's motives because she is now wealthy.
> 
> When the new season begins, it will be 6 months after Matthews death so we will know pretty quickly how she has coped.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> She was indeed - I think he either went down on the Titanic or got killed/MIA in WW I.  And yes, she and Matthew did not get on well at all at first.
> 
> What's this business about men's motives, BTW?  We have no MOTIVES, by God!  I am SHOCKED you would think such a thing.
Click to expand...


That's right, he did go down on the Titanic.

Ok, _some_ men might be..


----------



## George Costanza

Sarah G said:


> George Costanza said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wasn't she in love with another guy who died before becoming engaged to Matthew?  She and Matthew hated each other at first then they grew to love each other.  She is young and beautiful, I doubt she'll whither on the vine.  Although she may begin to mistrust men's motives because she is now wealthy.
> 
> When the new season begins, it will be 6 months after Matthews death so we will know pretty quickly how she has coped.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She was indeed - I think he either went down on the Titanic or got killed/MIA in WW I.  And yes, she and Matthew did not get on well at all at first.
> 
> What's this business about men's motives, BTW?  We have no MOTIVES, by God!  I am SHOCKED you would think such a thing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's right, he did go down on the Titanic.
> 
> Ok, _some_ men might be..
Click to expand...


Glad you realize that.  So . . . wanna meet me for a coke some time?


----------



## MikeK

George Costanza said:


> Is anyone else having trouble figuring out where Mrs. O'Brien is coming from?  In early episodes, I had her pegged for being one of the female villains, what with her friendship with Thomas Barrow and all of the dirty tricks the two of them pulled.  Remember when she caused Lady Crawley to take a spill as she got out of the bathtub?
> 
> And yet, in recent episodes, we see her changing a bit.  She still is motivated largely by self-interest, but her partners in crime relationship with Barrow seems to be cooling and she has actually been seen doing some fairly nice things.


She was careless enough to confide in Thomas Barrow about that rather heinous trick she pulled on Lady Grantham with the bath soap.  Barrow revealed it to Bates, who leveraged O'Brien to connive Barrow's redemption.  Of course I thought that was a bad idea because Barrow is a contemptible character who deserved to be shit-canned and blackballed -- and worse.



> For that matter, what about Barrow himself?  He too is becoming a tad more likeable, isn't he?


This I don't understand.  But it's just one more example of Fellowes' proficient weaving.  He also wrote _Gosford Park,_ which is a semi-mystery play (if you didn't see it, you will like it) and he probably could turn out exceptional foggy old London-type mysteries. 

Back to Barrow; he isn't becoming at all likeable to me.  I don't like him and I don't trust him.  Both he and O'Brien deserve to be drowned in the same sack.   I firmly believe a leopard's spots cannot change.  Anyone can make a mistake and perpetrate an impulsive wrong.  But an instinctual schemer is quite a different being.  Never, never turn your back on one.


----------



## George Costanza

And what do you think of poor Shrimpy's wife?  Wow - what a horrible person.  Totally negative 24/7.  Never says anything nice to or about anyone.  Shrimpy himself seems like a jolly sort who had better get the hell out of there or she's going to drag him down with her.

I have known one or two pople like Mrs. Shrimpy.  Not a good experience.


----------



## g5000

I very much enjoyed Downton Abbey in the beginning.  A very posh and well written show.  It was worth watching just for the gorgeous period wardrobe.

However, over time it has become identical to a daytime soap opera.  Boooooooring.  The ins and outs and roundabouts of Lady Mary's on again, off again relationship with Matthew Crawley is a huge drag on the show.  It has become exceedingly tiresome.

But I must say Violet Crawley is priceless!


----------



## MikeK

g5000 said:


> I very much enjoyed Downton Abbey in the beginning.  A very posh and well written show.  It was worth watching just for the gorgeous period wardrobe.
> 
> However, over time it has become identical to a daytime soap opera.  Boooooooring.  The ins and outs and roundabouts of Lady Mary's on again, off again relationship with Matthew Crawley is a huge drag on the show.  It has become exceedingly tiresome.


It would indeed be an ordinary soap opera -- if it were ordinary.  But it isn't.  

Highclere Castle is far from an ordinary soap opera set.  The sterling cast is far from ordinary, as are their costumes.  Last, and most important, the script deals with an exceptionally interesting examination of reality and nuances in the relationship of Edwardian nobility with its servant class, the substance of which we Americans have little to no real awarness of.  This relationship was in fact the energy for success of the extraordinarily popular and long-lasting tv series, _Upstairs/Downstairs._ 

I'm a relatively cranky 76 year-old fart who has always been contemptuous of the typical daytime soap opera, mainly because of its revoltingly droll sameness and utter lack of talent in any aspect of the usually low-budget production.  So if I (along with many millions of other non-soap-opera-liking types) can be so thoroughy captivated by Downton Abbey, they must be doing something right.  



> But I must say Violet Crawley is priceless!


You got me.  Who is Violet Crawley?  The only female Crawley I'm aware of is Matthew's mother.


----------



## George Costanza

g5000 said:


> The ins and outs and roundabouts of Lady Mary's on again, off again relationship with Matthew Crawley is a huge drag on the show.  It has become exceedingly tiresome.



Excuse me?  Prior to Matthew's unfortunate demise in the final episode of Season 3, recently aired, there were no "ins and outs" - they had been happily married for a long, long time.  In the very early stages of the show, yes, there were a lot of ins and outs, which I found quite interesting, BTW.  But I would say about halfway through, they were married.  Have been ever since.  Had a child.  Ins and outs?   I think not.


----------



## George Costanza

MikeK said:


> You got me.  Who is Violet Crawley?  The only female Crawley I'm aware of is Matthew's mother.



She's the dowager.  Played by Maggie Smith.  Maggie Smith was born in 1934.  She is extremely old in real life.  Extremely.


----------



## MikeK

George Costanza said:


> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> You got me.  Who is Violet Crawley?  The only female Crawley I'm aware of is Matthew's mother.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She's the dowager.  Played by Maggie Smith.  Maggie Smith was born in 1934.  She is extremely old in real life.  Extremely.
Click to expand...

George,

I believe she would be Violet Grantham, not Crawley.  Crawley is Matthew's family.  The Dowager is Lord Grantham's mother.  (And I, too, think she is precious.)


----------



## boedicca

George Costanza said:


> Thoughts on the final episode?




Too much of a body count this season.  I'm sad to see both Sybil and Matthew gone...but both actors wanted out of the show.

I do like how Thomas became more sympathetic and how Edith is evolving.  I hope she moves to London and enjoys life.   He's become one of the more interesting characters.  Robert, however, continues to be a bore.


----------



## boedicca

Sherry said:


> I think Matthew was Mary's one true love, and no other will quite be able to fill his shoes. She is going to dote on her son, who will be a constant reminder of his father...also he is the future heir of Downton.




I agree.  And now that she has a son (Matthew's heir), there is less pressure on her.  She can be the Regent to the Little Prince until he comes of age.


----------



## boedicca

George Costanza said:


> Is anyone else having trouble figuring out where Mrs. O'Brien is coming from?  In early episodes, I had her pegged for being one of the female villains, what with her friendship with Thomas Barrow and all of the dirty tricks the two of them pulled.  Remember when she caused Lady Crawley to take a spill as she got out of the bathtub?
> 
> And yet, in recent episodes, we see her changing a bit.  She still is motivated largely by self-interest, but her partners in crime relationship with Barrow seems to be cooling and she has actually been seen doing some fairly nice things.
> 
> For that matter, what about Barrow himself?  He too is becoming a tad more likeable, isn't he?






O'Brien has L'Affair du Soap to haunt her.   She is tormented with a guilty conscience.  It will be interesting to see if this just stays her private torment, or if she is outed to Cora (and the aftermath of that).

Thomas' brittle shell is softening.  I credit Sybil's friendship with helping him become more human.


----------



## boedicca

George Costanza said:


> And what do you think of poor Shrimpy's wife?  Wow - what a horrible person.  Totally negative 24/7.  Never says anything nice to or about anyone.  Shrimpy himself seems like a jolly sort who had better get the hell out of there or she's going to drag him down with her.
> 
> I have known one or two pople like Mrs. Shrimpy.  Not a good experience.





I suspect Shrimpy's wife is bitter because Shrimpy is truly shrimpy.


----------



## boedicca

g5000 said:


> I very much enjoyed Downton Abbey in the beginning.  A very posh and well written show.  It was worth watching just for the gorgeous period wardrobe.
> 
> However, over time it has become identical to a daytime soap opera.  Boooooooring.  The ins and outs and roundabouts of Lady Mary's on again, off again relationship with Matthew Crawley is a huge drag on the show.  It has become exceedingly tiresome.
> 
> But I must say Violet Crawley is priceless!





Violet, the dowager Grantham, is the best character with all of the best one liners.

I adore Maggie Smith; she is a master of delivery.


----------



## George Costanza

MikeK said:


> George Costanza said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> You got me.  Who is Violet Crawley?  The only female Crawley I'm aware of is Matthew's mother.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She's the dowager.  Played by Maggie Smith.  Maggie Smith was born in 1934.  She is extremely old in real life.  Extremely.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> George,
> 
> I believe she would be Violet Grantham, not Crawley.  Crawley is Matthew's family.  The Dowager is Lord Grantham's mother.  (And I, too, think she is precious.)
Click to expand...


The family name of the Earl of Grantham is Crawley.  Robert Crawley has the _title_ of "Earl of Grantham," but that is just his title.  His _surname_ is Crawley.  It would follow, then, that his mother's name would be Violet Crawley.

Scroll down a bit on this Wiki page for a list of the cast . . . .

Downton Abbey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Consider the following from the same Wiki article on DA:  "The device that sets the drama in motion is the entail accompanying the (fictional) Earldom of Grantham (which endows both title and estate exclusively to heirs male) complicated by the dire financial state of the estate only saved when the earl &#8211; then the heir apparent &#8211; married an American heiress."

So we have Robert Crawley, occupying the fictional Earldom of Grantham as "Lord Grantham."  But his NAME is Crawley, and, of course, so is his mother's name Crawley.  The key to understanding all of this is to not confuse the Earldom of Grantham with anyone's actual name.  There is no one in the show with the surname of "Grantham."


----------



## George Costanza

boedicca said:


> George Costanza said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is anyone else having trouble figuring out where Mrs. O'Brien is coming from?  In early episodes, I had her pegged for being one of the female villains, what with her friendship with Thomas Barrow and all of the dirty tricks the two of them pulled.  Remember when she caused Lady Crawley to take a spill as she got out of the bathtub?
> 
> And yet, in recent episodes, we see her changing a bit.  She still is motivated largely by self-interest, but her partners in crime relationship with Barrow seems to be cooling and she has actually been seen doing some fairly nice things.
> 
> For that matter, what about Barrow himself?  He too is becoming a tad more likeable, isn't he?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> O'Brien has L'Affair du Soap to haunt her.   She is tormented with a guilty conscience.  It will be interesting to see if this just stays her private torment, or if she is outed to Cora (and the aftermath of that).
> 
> Thomas' brittle shell is softening.  I credit Sybil's friendship with helping him become more human.
Click to expand...


I think "conscience" is the operative word here.  Real villains don't have one.  The fact that she does (and she clearly does) is a saving grace and some indicator of hope for her future as a person.  Of course, just because someone has a conscience doesn't mean they can't shove it under the rug when something they REALLY want to do comes along . . . 

For that matter, Thomas Barrow is showing a bit of conscience himself now, isn't he?


----------



## Sarah G

Ima have to watch the first two seasons on netflix.  I've been paying for it but never used netflix yet.


----------



## George Costanza

Sarah G said:


> Ima have to watch the first two seasons on netflix.  I've been paying for it but never used netflix yet.



God, I know what you mean.  I am paying for Netflix, Vudu and Huluplus.  I rarely use them.  But I'm reluctant to get rid of them, because there is so much great stuff on them.  Netflix is probably the worst.  Not too much in the way of selections on there.  Vudu seems best for movies.  Huluplus is terrific for old t.v. series.


----------



## Sarah G

George Costanza said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ima have to watch the first two seasons on netflix.  I've been paying for it but never used netflix yet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> God, I know what you mean.  I am paying for Netflix, Vudu and Huluplus.  I rarely use them.  But I'm reluctant to get rid of them, because there is so much great stuff on them.  Netflix is probably the worst.  Not too much in the way of selections on there.  Vudu seems best for movies.  Huluplus is terrific for old t.v. series.
Click to expand...


I'll have to check out the other two then.


----------



## MikeK

George Costanza said:


> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> George Costanza said:
> 
> 
> 
> She's the dowager.  Played by Maggie Smith.  Maggie Smith was born in 1934.  She is extremely old in real life.  Extremely.
> 
> 
> 
> George,
> 
> I believe she would be Violet Grantham, not Crawley.  Crawley is Matthew's family.  The Dowager is Lord Grantham's mother.  (And I, too, think she is precious.)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The family name of the Earl of Grantham is Crawley.  Robert Crawley has the _title_ of "Earl of Grantham," but that is just his title.  His _surname_ is Crawley.  It would follow, then, that his mother's name would be Violet Crawley.
> 
> Scroll down a bit on this Wiki page for a list of the cast . . . .
> 
> Downton Abbey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Consider the following from the same Wiki article on DA:  "The device that sets the drama in motion is the entail accompanying the (fictional) Earldom of Grantham (which endows both title and estate exclusively to heirs male) complicated by the dire financial state of the estate only saved when the earl  then the heir apparent  married an American heiress."
> 
> So we have Robert Crawley, occupying the fictional Earldom of Grantham as "Lord Grantham."  But his NAME is Crawley, and, of course, so is his mother's name Crawley.  The key to understanding all of this is to not confuse the Earldom of Grantham with anyone's actual name.  There is no one in the show with the surname of "Grantham."
Click to expand...

I stand corrected and grateful for the correction.


----------



## George Costanza

MikeK said:


> George Costanza said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> George,
> 
> I believe she would be Violet Grantham, not Crawley.  Crawley is Matthew's family.  The Dowager is Lord Grantham's mother.  (And I, too, think she is precious.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The family name of the Earl of Grantham is Crawley.  Robert Crawley has the _title_ of "Earl of Grantham," but that is just his title.  His _surname_ is Crawley.  It would follow, then, that his mother's name would be Violet Crawley.
> 
> Scroll down a bit on this Wiki page for a list of the cast . . . .
> 
> Downton Abbey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Consider the following from the same Wiki article on DA:  "The device that sets the drama in motion is the entail accompanying the (fictional) Earldom of Grantham (which endows both title and estate exclusively to heirs male) complicated by the dire financial state of the estate only saved when the earl  then the heir apparent  married an American heiress."
> 
> So we have Robert Crawley, occupying the fictional Earldom of Grantham as "Lord Grantham."  But his NAME is Crawley, and, of course, so is his mother's name Crawley.  The key to understanding all of this is to not confuse the Earldom of Grantham with anyone's actual name.  There is no one in the show with the surname of "Grantham."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I stand corrected and grateful for the correction.
Click to expand...


I must admit that I was confused about this Grantham situaion as well.  It was in researching the issue to respond to your post that I finally cleared it all up for myself.  We both learn something here!


----------



## Starlight

boedicca said:


> George Costanza said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is anyone else having trouble figuring out where Mrs. O'Brien is coming from?  In early episodes, I had her pegged for being one of the female villains, what with her friendship with Thomas Barrow and all of the dirty tricks the two of them pulled.  Remember when she caused Lady Crawley to take a spill as she got out of the bathtub?
> 
> And yet, in recent episodes, we see her changing a bit.  She still is motivated largely by self-interest, but her partners in crime relationship with Barrow seems to be cooling and she has actually been seen doing some fairly nice things.
> 
> For that matter, what about Barrow himself?  He too is becoming a tad more likeable, isn't he?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> O'Brien has L'Affair du Soap to haunt her.   She is tormented with a guilty conscience.  It will be interesting to see if this just stays her private torment, or if she is outed to Cora (and the aftermath of that).
> 
> Thomas' brittle shell is softening.  I credit Sybil's friendship with helping him become more human.
Click to expand...

 
I read that Mrs. Obrien isn't coming back for Season 4, Boedicca. She decided not to renew her contract, the same as Matthew and Sybil. The viewers in Britain saw the episode with Matthews death on Christmas Day. A friend recommended this show and I love it! Unfortunately we have to wait until January 4th or the 14th to see Season 4. Britain's season 4 starts 6 months earlier.


----------



## Sarah G

Downton Abbey, Season 4 starts tonight at 9:00.  Don't forget.


----------



## Zander

Sarah G said:


> Downton Abbey, Season 4 starts tonight at 9:00.  Don't forget.



Can't wait!!!


----------



## Sherry

I'm watching it again, but I've already viewed all 8 episodes plus the Christmas special...I just couldn't wait.


----------



## Zander

Sherry said:


> I'm watching it again, but I've already viewed all 8 episodes plus the Christmas special...I just couldn't wait.



no spoilers please!!!


----------



## Sherry

Zander said:


> Sherry said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm watching it again, but I've already viewed all 8 episodes plus the Christmas special...I just couldn't wait.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> no spoilers please!!!
Click to expand...


My lips are sealed.


----------



## Zander

I thoroughly enjoyed this episode. I heard the first few notes of the opening score,  and suddenly,  I am right back at the end of last season.  Running back to my chair to watch.  Remembering that Matthew is dead.....

I think one of the reasons I enjoy this show is because the- 90-120 minutes length is so much more in depth and engaging.    It helps that they have no commercials too. 

No disappointments whatsoever. Looking forward to the next!


----------



## Sarah G

Zander said:


> I thoroughly enjoyed this episode. I heard the first few notes of the opening score,  and suddenly,  I am right back at the end of last season.  Running back to my chair to watch.  Remembering that Matthew is dead.....
> 
> I think one of the reasons I enjoy this show is because the- 90-120 minutes length is so much more in depth and engaging.    It helps that they have no commercials too.
> 
> No disappointments whatsoever. Looking forward to the next!



How about Super-Evil Nanny West and poor little Sybil?  Didn't you see that coming?  I was nervous watching her hold little George while Cora was telling her to get out.

Also, poor Edith finds love and now he wants to drag her off to Germany?  I don't think so.. Too many are leaving already.


----------



## Sarah G

I'm loving their improved fashion sense.  The hats are simply amazing.


----------



## Sarah G

Downton Abbey: Meet Mary Crawleys New Man  Spoiler Alert

Mary Crawley ? Tom Ellis: New Man In Her Life After ?Downton Abbey? Death - Hollywood Life


----------



## Zander

Sarah G said:


> Zander said:
> 
> 
> 
> I thoroughly enjoyed this episode. I heard the first few notes of the opening score,  and suddenly,  I am right back at the end of last season.  Running back to my chair to watch.  Remembering that Matthew is dead.....
> 
> I think one of the reasons I enjoy this show is because the- 90-120 minutes length is so much more in depth and engaging.    It helps that they have no commercials too.
> 
> No disappointments whatsoever. Looking forward to the next!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How about Super-Evil Nanny West and poor little Sybil?  Didn't you see that coming?  I was nervous watching her hold little George while Cora was telling her to get out.
> 
> Also, poor Edith finds love and now he wants to drag her off to Germany?  I don't think so.. Too many are leaving already.
Click to expand...


That whole ordeal had me gasping... and no, I didn't see it coming! I thought that Barrow was going to get his ass handed to him by the evil Nanny bitch. She was so strong with him! and he's so easy to dislike..so full of himself!  

Edith is looking better this season, the flapper costumes flatter her. But moving to Germany (just in time for the rise of Hitler's Fascism!)  is not going to solve her problems.  She'd be better off living alone or (gasp) "in sin" with the publisher.  I loved her line..."it's getting harder and harder to say no" as she leans in to kiss him.....oye.....she's so naive and needy. She acts as if she has no other choice! Maybe she'll get pregnant?


----------



## Zander

Sarah G said:


> I'm loving their improved fashion sense.  The hats are simply amazing.



And the jewelry...all of those necklaces and bracelets....


----------



## Sarah G

Zander said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Zander said:
> 
> 
> 
> I thoroughly enjoyed this episode. I heard the first few notes of the opening score,  and suddenly,  I am right back at the end of last season.  Running back to my chair to watch.  Remembering that Matthew is dead.....
> 
> I think one of the reasons I enjoy this show is because the- 90-120 minutes length is so much more in depth and engaging.    It helps that they have no commercials too.
> 
> No disappointments whatsoever. Looking forward to the next!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How about Super-Evil Nanny West and poor little Sybil?  Didn't you see that coming?  I was nervous watching her hold little George while Cora was telling her to get out.
> 
> Also, poor Edith finds love and now he wants to drag her off to Germany?  I don't think so.. Too many are leaving already.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That whole ordeal had me gasping... and no, I didn't see it coming! I thought that Barrow was going to get his ass handed to him by the evil Nanny bitch. She was so strong with him! and he's so easy to dislike..so full of himself!
> 
> Edith is looking better this season, the flapper costumes flatter her. But moving to Germany (just in time for the rise of Hitler's Fascism!)  is not going to solve her problems.  She'd be better off living alone or (gasp) "in sin" with the publisher.  I loved her line..."it's getting harder and harder to say no" as she leans in to kiss him.....oye.....she's so naive and needy. She acts as if she has no other choice! Maybe she'll get pregnant?
Click to expand...


There's a really good recap and the slideshow is especially good on this website:

'Downton Abbey' Recap, Season 4, Episode 1: Life After Matthew | Youyoung Lee

Scroll down.

I really liked the conversation between Anna, John and Barrow where Anna and John were explaining to Barrow that he is actually a servant.  He looked so clueless.


----------



## Sarah G

Poor Anna.


----------



## Zander

Sarah G said:


> Poor Anna.



That was horrid.  The prick even had the nerve to "thank" Mr Bates as he was leaving....grrrrrrr   When Bates finds out it will get ugly. I just hope he doesn't get caught. 

I was happy that Lady Mary has a new suitor!! She's been hanging crepe for far too long.....time for her to get laid!!!  He seems like a real catch! Can she reel him in though.....??

Poor Tom Branson was so sad. He really is a fish out of water. How is he supposed to know all the inane rules of addressing "Nobles"?  Duchess, Your Grace, M'Lady.. my god!!   Anyway, I have a feeling that he's going to get in trouble with this new maid...she's a scheming little minx!  The family will freak if he gets caught...

Looks like Edith is going to fuck her life over by marrying the card-cheating publisher and moving to Germany just in time to don a brown shirt......oye....I did like how he gave the "gentleman" their IOU's back....he's up to something though. I do not trust this guy. 

They continue to portray Lord Grantham as a bumbling idiot. He can't manage the estate, makes lousy inconsiderate decisions, and now he loses a fortune in a card game?  The idiot can't do anything right. Thank god he got the IOU back...I can't imagine Cora taking that too lightly...

Can't wait until the next episode!!


----------



## Sarah G

Zander said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> Poor Anna.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That was horrid.  The prick even had the nerve to "thank" Mr Bates as he was leaving....grrrrrrr   When Bates finds out it will get ugly. I just hope he doesn't get caught.
> 
> I was happy that Lady Mary has a new suitor!! She's been hanging crepe for far too long.....time for her to get laid!!!  He seems like a real catch! Can she reel him in though.....??
> 
> Poor Tom Branson was so sad. He really is a fish out of water. How is he supposed to know all the inane rules of addressing "Nobles"?  Duchess, Your Grace, M'Lady.. my god!!   Anyway, I have a feeling that he's going to get in trouble with this new maid...she's a scheming little minx!  The family will freak if he gets caught...
> 
> Looks like Edith is going to fuck her life over by marrying the card-cheating publisher and moving to Germany just in time to don a brown shirt......oye....I did like how he gave the "gentleman" their IOU's back....he's up to something though. I do not trust this guy.
> 
> They continue to portray Lord Grantham as a bumbling idiot. He can't manage the estate, makes lousy inconsiderate decisions, and now he loses a fortune in a card game?  The idiot can't do anything right. Thank god he got the IOU back...I can't imagine Cora taking that too lightly...
> 
> Can't wait until the next episode!!
Click to expand...


Yeah, the prick, I forget his name, said goodbye because he knew she wouldn't tell.  Back then, the woman always got blamed for rape.  This will be Anna's secret probably.  I love her in this part.

Edith will be interesting.  Her man does seem like a player.


----------



## MikeK

Zander said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm loving their improved fashion sense.  The hats are simply amazing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the jewelry...all of those necklaces and bracelets....
Click to expand...

Yes.  Everything about this production is first rate; cast, sets, costumes, even the autos are authentic and amazingly new-looking.  

There is a related special running on PBS about _Highclere Castle,_ where much of _Downton Abbey_ was filmed.  If you haven't already seen it, look for it.  It's interesting.


----------



## MikeK

Sarah G said:


> Poor Anna.


Poor Anna should have paid attention to the man who loves her and has been around enough to know what he's talking about.


----------



## MikeK

Zander said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> Poor Anna.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That was horrid.  The prick even had the nerve to "thank" Mr Bates as he was leaving....grrrrrrr   When Bates finds out it will get ugly. I just hope he doesn't get caught.
Click to expand...

I would have the same apprehension if the circumstances were not set up for Bates to believe Anna provoked, even encouraged something to happen with that fellow.  



> Poor Tom Branson was so sad. He really is a fish out of water. How is he supposed to know all the inane rules of addressing "Nobles"?  Duchess, Your Grace, M'Lady.. my god!!   Anyway, I have a feeling that he's going to get in trouble with this new maid...she's a scheming little minx!  The family will freak if he gets caught...


It seems Branson's made up his mind that he does not and cannot fit in with those nobles -- and there is no doubt in my mind he is headed for a hookup with Edna.  It's already set up for him to tell Robert "I told you so."


----------



## Zander

MikeK said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> Poor Anna.
> 
> 
> 
> Poor Anna should have paid attention to the man who loves her and has been around enough to know what he's talking about.
Click to expand...


She's always been playful and flirtatious.....that is her charm! I hope Bates never finds out....


----------



## Sarah G

MikeK said:


> Zander said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> Poor Anna.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That was horrid.  The prick even had the nerve to "thank" Mr Bates as he was leaving....grrrrrrr   When Bates finds out it will get ugly. I just hope he doesn't get caught.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I would have the same apprehension if the circumstances were not set up for Bates to believe Anna provoked, even encouraged something to happen with that fellow.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Poor Tom Branson was so sad. He really is a fish out of water. How is he supposed to know all the inane rules of addressing "Nobles"?  Duchess, Your Grace, M'Lady.. my god!!   Anyway, I have a feeling that he's going to get in trouble with this new maid...she's a scheming little minx!  The family will freak if he gets caught...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It seems Branson's made up his mind that he does not and cannot fit in with those nobles -- and there is no doubt in my mind he is headed for a hookup with Edna.  It's already set up for him to tell Robert "I told you so."
Click to expand...


It's not her fault that the guy is a psycho and can't control himself.  He gives men a bad name and you're sticking up for him?  

Crazy.  

She doesn't have to change her personality simply because he can't control his violent urges.  He's a rapist.  Remember that.


----------



## Octarine

It's all so predictable but addictive as well  
I thought the Christmas Special wasn't 'special' at all, rather dull in fact.
I particularly liked the arrival of Coras mother who on entering the room remarks: " Well the gang&#8217;s all here I see."
To which Violet replies: "Is that American for hello? "  She's by far the best character


----------



## Peterf

My mother had a friend who was a lady's maid.    We stayed with her a few times.    The house was nowhere near as grand as Downton Abbey but there were still 12 or 15 staff at table in the servants hall.  This was in the 1940s and towards the end of the age of the big house.

In the 1920s and 30s  upper servants like a butler or housekeeper were well into the lower middle class.  Carson would have been a much respected man in the village.    For many being engaged as a maid or footman was the chance of a step up in life.


----------



## Sarah G

I loved getting to know all of them, their purpose, their titles.  I wanted to place a list here just because.


List of the Crawley family and their titles:

List of Downton Abbey characters - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Staff:

List of Downton Abbey characters - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Crawley Family Acquaintances:

List of Downton Abbey characters - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Miscellaneous Characters:

List of Downton Abbey characters - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## MikeK

Octarine said:


> It's all so predictable but addictive as well
> I thought the Christmas Special wasn't 'special' at all, rather dull in fact.
> I particularly liked the arrival of Coras mother who on entering the room remarks: " Well the gangs all here I see."
> To which Violet replies: "Is that American for hello? "  She's by far the best character


She is precious.  And no one but Maggie Smith could play that role as well.


----------



## laughinReaper

Sarah G said:


> I'm loving their improved fashion sense.  The hats are simply amazing.



Makes me wonder why hats ever went out of favor for daily use. You can have a bad hair day but hats fix that right up. You can have more style with hats although some of the hair styles on the show are also amazing. I'd love to see hats and gloves Etc. make a come back in American fashion.


----------



## HenryBHough

Bates?

Ugly?

Nay.  All he does is done with quiet discretion.

And he does do something.

(series season complete in Britain).


----------



## MikeK

Sarah G said:


> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Zander said:
> 
> 
> 
> That was horrid.  The prick even had the nerve to "thank" Mr Bates as he was leaving....grrrrrrr   When Bates finds out it will get ugly. I just hope he doesn't get caught.
> 
> 
> 
> I would have the same apprehension if the circumstances were not set up for Bates to believe Anna provoked, even encouraged something to happen with that fellow.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Poor Tom Branson was so sad. He really is a fish out of water. How is he supposed to know all the inane rules of addressing "Nobles"?  Duchess, Your Grace, M'Lady.. my god!!   Anyway, I have a feeling that he's going to get in trouble with this new maid...she's a scheming little minx!  The family will freak if he gets caught...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It seems Branson's made up his mind that he does not and cannot fit in with those nobles -- and there is no doubt in my mind he is headed for a hookup with Edna.  It's already set up for him to tell Robert "I told you so."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's not her fault that the guy is a psycho and can't control himself.  He gives men a bad name and you're sticking up for him?
> 
> Crazy.
> 
> She doesn't have to change her personality simply because he can't control his violent urges.  He's a rapist.  Remember that.
Click to expand...

I didn't suggest the rape was Anna's fault.  So please read what I said again.

What I said is the circumstances are _set up_ for it to appear (to Bates) that she behaved provocatively.  Which, to an experienced man, she did.

Consider that Anna has throughout the entire series been presented as exceptionally reserved, even sedate, quiet, mature, and exceptionally proper, which has been Bates' perception of her.  Then an attractive man in the servant category is introduced and suddenly Anna is transformed.  She is now frivolous and actively receptive to the attentions of this older man.  Even after being brutally raped by him she manages to issue a polite good-bye to him.  

Bates perceived the potential problem with Anna's behavior toward this fellow and he tried to warn her -- but she brushed him off.  

A very serious and possibly tragic problem is going to arise from this.


----------



## Sarah G

laughinReaper said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm loving their improved fashion sense.  The hats are simply amazing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Makes me wonder why hats ever went out of favor for daily use. You can have a bad hair day but hats fix that right up. You can have more style with hats although some of the hair styles on the show are also amazing. I'd love to see hats and gloves Etc. make a come back in American fashion.
Click to expand...


Women don't like them because at some point, you have to take them off and they really put dents in your hairstyle.

I wear them Winter and Summer but my hair is pretty short and messy anyway.


----------



## Sarah G

MikeK said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would have the same apprehension if the circumstances were not set up for Bates to believe Anna provoked, even encouraged something to happen with that fellow.
> 
> 
> It seems Branson's made up his mind that he does not and cannot fit in with those nobles -- and there is no doubt in my mind he is headed for a hookup with Edna.  It's already set up for him to tell Robert "I told you so."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's not her fault that the guy is a psycho and can't control himself.  He gives men a bad name and you're sticking up for him?
> 
> Crazy.
> 
> She doesn't have to change her personality simply because he can't control his violent urges.  He's a rapist.  Remember that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I didn't suggest the rape was Anna's fault.  So please read what I said again.
> 
> What I said is the circumstances are _set up_ for it to appear (to Bates) that she behaved provocatively.  Which, to an experienced man, she did.
> 
> Consider that Anna has throughout the entire series been presented as exceptionally reserved, even sedate, quiet, mature, and exceptionally proper, which has been Bates' perception of her.  Then an attractive man in the servant category is introduced and suddenly Anna is transformed.  She is now frivolous and actively receptive to the attentions of this older man.  Even after being brutally raped by him she manages to issue a polite good-bye to him.
> 
> Bates perceived the potential problem with Anna's behavior toward this fellow and he tried to warn her -- but she brushed him off.
> 
> A very serious and possibly tragic problem is going to arise from this.
Click to expand...


I apologize.


----------



## Sarah G

And then Bates darkens episode's end with his creepy sign-off, "Nothing is over. And nothing is done with," to poor Mrs. Hughes...

Another great episode.


----------



## Zander

Sarah G said:


> And then Bates darkens episode's end with his creepy sign-off, "Nothing is over. And nothing is done with," to poor Mrs. Hughes...
> 
> Another great episode.



Yep.  it was Another fabulously satisfying episode'    Bates is misdirecting his anger at poor Mrs. Hughes.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeK

Sarah G said:


> And then Bates darkens episode's end with his creepy sign-off, "Nothing is over. And nothing is done with," to poor Mrs. Hughes...
> 
> Another great episode.


I agree.  Bates should not have imposed a state of apprehension on Mrs. Hughes.  He should instead have thanked her for restoring the happiness he'd thought was ended.  If he intends to have revenge on his wife's attacker he should do so without such ominous fanfare.  It isn't suited to his normally mature and sensible disposition.  

But I'm left to wonder how this situation will turn out.  If I were writing the script I would have that group including the rapist return to Downton for some reason, which prompts Mrs. Hughes to tell Carson what happened, and Carson would conspire with Bates and Branson to arrange some painfully fatal accident to befall the rapist while he's there.


----------



## Sarah G

MikeK said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> And then Bates darkens episode's end with his creepy sign-off, "Nothing is over. And nothing is done with," to poor Mrs. Hughes...
> 
> Another great episode.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree.  Bates should not have imposed a state of apprehension on Mrs. Hughes.  He should instead have thanked her for restoring the happiness he'd thought was ended.  If he intends to have revenge on his wife's attacker he should do so without such ominous fanfare.  It isn't suited to his normally mature and sensible disposition.
> 
> But I'm left to wonder how this situation will turn out.  If I were writing the script I would have that group including the rapist return to Downton for some reason, which prompts Mrs. Hughes to tell Carson what happened, and Carson would conspire with Bates and Branson to arrange some painfully fatal accident to befall the rapist while he's there.
Click to expand...


I see a scenario such as that one happening as well.  Lord Gillingham's valet is sure to meet some dreadful fate, probably showing up dead under the London bridge or some such.  

They're not above it at Downton, you remember the guy who slept with Mary and died in her bed?  These people have ways of dealing with these things ...


----------



## veeder

I find this new season a bit boring

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## boedicca

Downton has jumped the shark.

The Rape plot line is unfortunate, and completely unnecessary.   It's not good drama to have so much tragedy centered on sweet little Anna (who has become the heroine in an overwrought Perils of Little Nell style).

What's next?  Snidley Whiplash tying her to a railroad track?


----------



## veeder

Walking dead has restarted again I will be watching that

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## mudwhistle

veeder said:


> I find this new season a bit boring
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk



No kidding?

English people being English is meant to be boring.


----------



## Sarah G

mudwhistle said:


> veeder said:
> 
> 
> 
> I find this new season a bit boring
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No kidding?
> 
> English people being English is meant to be boring.
Click to expand...


Cora's side is American.


----------



## MikeK

On the event calendar now are disposition of Anna's rapist, Edith's pregnancy, Rose's romantic involvement with a negro, Mary's emerging romance, and the consequence of Thomas Barrow's collusion with Cora's maid.  (Did I miss anything?)

So the stage is set.


----------



## Luissa

I missed the last two episodes.  


Sent from my iPhone using the tears of Raider's fans.


----------



## Luddly Neddite

veeder said:


> Walking dead has restarted again I will be watching that
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk



Both are soap operas. 

I did watch some of the WD marathon last Sunday. Now THAT is boring. A one trick pony with special effects. The constant and gratuitous violence gets really tiresome. 

I switched to Downton Abbey. At times sappy but the costumes, jewelry, houses, countryside are all just stunning.


----------



## Luddly Neddite

Luissa said:


> I missed the last two episodes.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using the tears of Raider's fans.



Do all the PBS stations show the previous episode again before showing the new one?

You could do a little catching up.


----------



## Sarah G

Luddly Neddite said:


> veeder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Walking dead has restarted again I will be watching that
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Both are soap operas.
> 
> I did watch some of the WD marathon last Sunday. Now THAT is boring. A one trick pony with special effects. The constant and gratuitous violence gets really tiresome.
> 
> I switched to Downton Abbey. At times sappy but the costumes, jewelry, houses, countryside are all just stunning.
Click to expand...


Have you seen Mr. Selfridge?  I love that one too.

Mr. Selfridge | Programs | Masterpiece | PBS


----------



## MikeK

Sarah G said:


> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> veeder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Walking dead has restarted again I will be watching that
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Both are soap operas.
> 
> I did watch some of the WD marathon last Sunday. Now THAT is boring. A one trick pony with special effects. The constant and gratuitous violence gets really tiresome.
> 
> I switched to Downton Abbey. At times sappy but the costumes, jewelry, houses, countryside are all just stunning.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Have you seen Mr. Selfridge?  I love that one too.
> 
> Mr. Selfridge | Programs | Masterpiece | PBS
Click to expand...

Me, too.


----------



## Sarah G

MikeK said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> 
> Both are soap operas.
> 
> I did watch some of the WD marathon last Sunday. Now THAT is boring. A one trick pony with special effects. The constant and gratuitous violence gets really tiresome.
> 
> I switched to Downton Abbey. At times sappy but the costumes, jewelry, houses, countryside are all just stunning.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have you seen Mr. Selfridge?  I love that one too.
> 
> Mr. Selfridge | Programs | Masterpiece | PBS
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Me, too.
Click to expand...


I saw a documentary on him that was real good.  Interesting life.


----------



## Luissa

Luddly Neddite said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> 
> I missed the last two episodes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using the tears of Raider's fans.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do all the PBS stations show the previous episode again before showing the new one?
> 
> 
> 
> You could do a little catching up.
Click to expand...



I have it on DVR, just haven't had time to catch up. 


Sent from my iPhone using the tears of Raider's fans.


----------



## Sarah G

Zander said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> And then Bates darkens episode's end with his creepy sign-off, "Nothing is over. And nothing is done with," to poor Mrs. Hughes...
> 
> Another great episode.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep.  it was Another fabulously satisfying episode'    Bates is misdirecting his anger at poor Mrs. Hughes.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...


Looks like the rapist came back one too many times.  Bates really suspects him now, he seems to know it was him.


----------



## mudwhistle

Sarah G said:


> Zander said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> And then Bates darkens episode's end with his creepy sign-off, "Nothing is over. And nothing is done with," to poor Mrs. Hughes...
> 
> Another great episode.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep.  it was Another fabulously satisfying episode'    Bates is misdirecting his anger at poor Mrs. Hughes.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Looks like the rapist came back one too many times.  Bates really suspects him now, he seems to know it was him.
Click to expand...


Therapist????


----------



## Sarah G

mudwhistle said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Zander said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep.  it was Another fabulously satisfying episode'    Bates is misdirecting his anger at poor Mrs. Hughes.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like the rapist came back one too many times.  Bates really suspects him now, he seems to know it was him.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Therapist????
Click to expand...


Wow, never saw it like that but it's the rapist.


----------



## MikeK

Sarah G said:


> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have you seen Mr. Selfridge?  I love that one too.
> 
> Mr. Selfridge | Programs | Masterpiece | PBS
> 
> 
> 
> Me, too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I saw a documentary on him that was real good.  Interesting life.
Click to expand...

Sad he died broke after accomplishing so much.


----------



## Sherry

Sarah G said:


> Zander said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> And then Bates darkens episode's end with his creepy sign-off, "Nothing is over. And nothing is done with," to poor Mrs. Hughes...
> 
> Another great episode.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep.  it was Another fabulously satisfying episode'    Bates is misdirecting his anger at poor Mrs. Hughes.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Looks like the rapist came back one too many times.  Bates really suspects him now, he seems to know it was him.
Click to expand...


I think he was intentionally taunting Bates after Mrs. Hughs confronted him and he found out from her that Bates knew of the attack, but not the attacker.


----------



## Sarah G

Sherry said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Zander said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep.  it was Another fabulously satisfying episode'    Bates is misdirecting his anger at poor Mrs. Hughes.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like the rapist came back one too many times.  Bates really suspects him now, he seems to know it was him.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think he was intentionally taunting Bates after Mrs. Hughs confronted him and he found out from her that Bates knew of the attack, but not the attacker.
Click to expand...


He was taunting Bates, I'm sure.  At the end of the scene Bates was giving him a long stare, it just looked like the rapist was as good as dead.


----------



## JakeStarkey

That's conflict!  Will the attacker's body be found in the fields somewhere with his head broken.


----------



## Sarah G

JakeStarkey said:


> That's conflict!  Will the attacker's body be found in the fields somewhere with his head broken.



It'd be hilarious if Anna did it.


----------



## MikeK

Sarah G said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's conflict!  Will the attacker's body be found in the fields somewhere with his head broken.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It'd be hilarious if Anna did it.
Click to expand...

That didn't occur to me.  But it is an interesting projection with more than one possible outcome -- one of which could be supremely tragic.  That being Anna killing the rapist to relieve Bates of his perceived obligation to do it.


----------



## Sarah G

MikeK said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's conflict!  Will the attacker's body be found in the fields somewhere with his head broken.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It'd be hilarious if Anna did it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That didn't occur to me.  But it is an interesting projection with more than one possible outcome -- one of which could be supremely tragic.  That being Anna killing the rapist to relieve Bates of his perceived obligation to do it.
Click to expand...


It would also release that rage inside her.  It'll be interesting to see.


----------



## MikeK

Sarah G said:


> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> It'd be hilarious if Anna did it.
> 
> 
> 
> That didn't occur to me.  But it is an interesting projection with more than one possible outcome -- one of which could be supremely tragic.  That being Anna killing the rapist to relieve Bates of his perceived obligation to do it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It would also release that rage inside her.  It'll be interesting to see.
Click to expand...

If she does it I hope it's done in some apparently justifiable manner -- such as defending against an attempt to rape her.  I know she's smart enough to do that, and with potential witnesses like Mrs. Hughes and Carson, and character references like the Crawley family, it could easily be done.  All she needs is a handy weapon.


----------



## Papageorgio

Started watching this show last year and it has become a favorite.

Lots of plots, twists and turns. The story lines are well written, they acting is superb. We need more of this type of television.


----------



## Sarah G

MikeK said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> That didn't occur to me.  But it is an interesting projection with more than one possible outcome -- one of which could be supremely tragic.  That being Anna killing the rapist to relieve Bates of his perceived obligation to do it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It would also release that rage inside her.  It'll be interesting to see.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If she does it I hope it's done in some apparently justifiable manner -- such as defending against an attempt to rape her.  I know she's smart enough to do that, and with potential witnesses like Mrs. Hughes and Carson, and character references like the Crawley family, it could easily be done.  All she needs is a handy weapon.
Click to expand...


Well, well, well ....


----------



## Sarah G

Did anyone find it wonderful (like I did) when Robert returned from his trip and was welcomed by everyone so warmly and then when Cora walked up to say hello, it was like the sun started shining again.

I love their relationship this season.  

I remember last season when Robert told her she can be curiously cruel at times.    It's true.


----------



## Luddly Neddite

Sarah G said:


> Did anyone find it wonderful (like I did) when Robert returned from his trip and was welcomed by everyone so warmly and then when Cora walked up to say hello, it was like the sun started shining again.
> 
> I love their relationship this season.
> 
> I remember last season when Robert told her she can be curiously cruel at times.    It's true.



Except that Cora can be so simpering and whimpering. Also annoying was how everyone applauded Cora for actually doing something. OTOH, that was/is the life of the idle rich. Lately, there was a scene in which Robert, at the breakfast table, all but gasped that it was 'half past 8 and he was late'. 

It just seems to me to be a bizarre lifestyle. So wealthy that one does not even dress or undress one's self. That in itself is kind of interesting/fun to watch but you have to wonder what in the world they did all day. I mean, how much embroidery can one do?

But yes, the homecoming was very sweet. 

But now, will we ever find out for sure that Bates killed the slime rapist? Obviously, Mary believes he did. 

Thing is, if they identify him for sure, then they have to deal with that. They can't send him back to prison and they can't have the Crawley's and/or the house staff condone murder and, what would Anna say about murder?

Oh and, I was glad that Mrs Crawley was able pull Gram-ma-ma through her illness. Their relationship is just wonderful.  

I didn't realize that Maggie Smith is not a "Dame". I think she should be. She's one of Britain's national treasures.


----------



## Papageorgio

Not sure how the Bates going to town and the murder will be handled. Maybe it is going to be something that is unspoken. Cora does whimper and whine way to much. I like the family and the affection for Robert when he returned. 

An interesting lifestyle regardless.


----------



## MikeK

Rather unsatisfyingly presumptive disposition of the rapist (and Anna is becoming a bit of a pain-in-the-ass).  I was hoping to see Bates beat him to death with his cane.  But I forgot, it's post-Victorian England.  

Too many people now know about the rape.  And the idea that Mary needs to be reassured Bates' presumed act of vengeance is morally justified is unsettling. 

Thomas Barrow's curiosity about Anna's and Bates' mysterious behavior, and his effort to have Cora's new maid pay attention to it, portends some future problem related to the issue.  

And am I the only one expecting Rose to announce she is knocked up?  That, combined with the bun in Edith's oven would make Robert catatonic.  Thomas Branson is one thing, but a little Sambo in the family is quite another.  That would be the final cheerio.  

I love Downton Abbey!


----------



## Zander

Sarah G said:


> Did anyone find it wonderful (like I did) when Robert returned from his trip and was welcomed by everyone so warmly and then when Cora walked up to say hello, it was like the sun started shining again.
> 
> I love their relationship this season.
> 
> I remember last season when Robert told her she can be curiously cruel at times.    It's true.



I agree Sarah. Cora and Robert are demonstrably more loving towards one another this season.  They seem optimistic; as if their challenges are behind them and a bright future awaits.  It all seems very authentic to me. They've come through an incredibly bloody, horrific trench War; They have lost one daughter; lost a son-in-law and heir; lost a fortune; gained a fortune!!. It wasn't easy , but they made it. They have reason to be optimistic! How could it get any worse? ....


----------



## Zander

MikeK said:


> Rather unsatisfyingly presumptive disposition of the rapist (and Anna is becoming a bit of a pain-in-the-ass).  I was hoping to see Bates beat him to death with his cane.  But I forgot, it's post-Victorian England.
> 
> Too many people now know about the rape.  And the idea that Mary needs to be reassured Bates' presumed act of vengeance is morally justified is unsettling.
> 
> Thomas Barrow's curiosity about Anna's and Bates' mysterious behavior, and his effort to have Cora's new maid pay attention to it, portends some future problem related to the issue.
> 
> And am I the only one expecting Rose to announce she is knocked up?  That, combined with the bun in Edith's oven would make Robert catatonic.  Thomas Branson is one thing, but a little Sambo in the family is quite another.  That would be the final cheerio.
> 
> I love Downton Abbey!


----------



## Sarah G

I've truly never found Cora to be simpery and wimpery at all.  She can be very firm at times like when she got rid of the fat nanny.  She talks about people all the time which is what prompted Robert to say that she can be cruel.

She actually smiled when he said that.  

Sorry to disagree but she really works hard, there is a lot to running a household like that.  They just did things differently back then.  Even the grandma works by staying in touch with family.  You see her in her office all the time writing letters.

They are rich but were in danger of losing everything before Matthew saved them.


----------



## Sarah G

Want to see inside the REAL Downton Abbey? From grandiose entrance halls to luxury sitting rooms, take a peek inside Britain's best known stately home and see how the aristocracy live | Mail Online

Want to see inside the REAL Downton Abbey? From grandiose entrance halls to luxury sitting rooms, take a peek inside Britain's best known stately home and see how the aristocracy live

People can buy tickets to have a tour of Highclere Castle in Newbury, Berkshire, which   was built in 1838

The 1,000-acre estate dates back to the Iron Age and has housed people for more than 1300 years

The manor in its current form was created by Sir Charles Barry, who designed the Palace of Westminster

Visitors can have tours of the entire estate, or even just the garden, which has courted ITV viewers for four series


----------



## Luddly Neddite

Sarah G said:


> I've truly never found Cora to be simpery and wimpery at all.  She can be very firm at times like when she got rid of the fat nanny.  She talks about people all the time which is what prompted Robert to say that she can be cruel.
> 
> She actually smiled when he said that.
> 
> Sorry to disagree but she really works hard, there is a lot to running a household like that.  They just did things differently back then.  Even the grandma works by staying in touch with family.  You see her in her office all the time writing letters.
> 
> They are rich but were in danger of losing everything before Matthew saved them.



I had forgotten about her firing the nanny and then staying with the babies until someone else came. She was great.


----------



## Luddly Neddite

MikeK said:


> Rather unsatisfyingly presumptive disposition of the rapist (and Anna is becoming a bit of a pain-in-the-ass).  I was hoping to see Bates beat him to death with his cane.  But I forgot, it's post-Victorian England.
> 
> Too many people now know about the rape.  And the idea that Mary needs to be reassured Bates' presumed act of vengeance is morally justified is unsettling.
> 
> Thomas Barrow's curiosity about Anna's and Bates' mysterious behavior, and his effort to have Cora's new maid pay attention to it, portends some future problem related to the issue.
> 
> And am I the only one expecting Rose to announce she is knocked up?  That, combined with the bun in Edith's oven would make Robert catatonic.  Thomas Branson is one thing, but a little Sambo in the family is quite another.  That would be the final cheerio.
> 
> I love Downton Abbey!



In that era, being raped meant something a lot different than it does now. Anna is actually being very courageous. How many women, in any era could stand to be in the same room, sitting at the same table, with their rapist? Honestly, I was hoping she'd go across the table at him. 

Bates said he was going to York but the rapist lives elsewhere. Can't remember where now. Not that that would be much of an alibi. 

I am fascinated by the lifestyle, the home, the art - all of it. PBS has done a documentary on the house and its history. The man who inherited it (the umpty zillions Earl of Carnarvon, I think) and his wife, live there and the dog, Isis, is theirs.  Apparently, she just sorta adopted the actors and film makers. I like that. 

Also, I saw a web site about how they jewelry and costumes are made exactly as they would have been 'in the day'. Beautiful and just fascinating.


----------



## Luddly Neddite

Sarah G said:


> Want to see inside the REAL Downton Abbey? From grandiose entrance halls to luxury sitting rooms, take a peek inside Britain's best known stately home and see how the aristocracy live | Mail Online
> 
> Want to see inside the REAL Downton Abbey? From grandiose entrance halls to luxury sitting rooms, take a peek inside Britain's best known stately home and see how the aristocracy live
> 
> People can buy tickets to have a tour of Highclere Castle in Newbury, Berkshire, which   was built in 1838
> 
> The 1,000-acre estate dates back to the Iron Age and has housed people for more than 1300 years
> 
> The manor in its current form was created by Sir Charles Barry, who designed the Palace of Westminster
> 
> Visitors can have tours of the entire estate, or even just the garden, which has courted ITV viewers for four series



Amazing, isn't it.

Apparently, the series is literally saving this wonderful home. If I remember right, the upkeep costs $1million a year.  

I LOVE the architecture in GB and Europe. We've been talking about going to see this house but this next trip is to France to see the ancient cave art. Maybe next time.

Thanks for this link.


----------



## Sarah G

Luddly Neddite said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> Want to see inside the REAL Downton Abbey? From grandiose entrance halls to luxury sitting rooms, take a peek inside Britain's best known stately home and see how the aristocracy live | Mail Online
> 
> Want to see inside the REAL Downton Abbey? From grandiose entrance halls to luxury sitting rooms, take a peek inside Britain's best known stately home and see how the aristocracy live
> 
> People can buy tickets to have a tour of Highclere Castle in Newbury, Berkshire, which   was built in 1838
> 
> The 1,000-acre estate dates back to the Iron Age and has housed people for more than 1300 years
> 
> The manor in its current form was created by Sir Charles Barry, who designed the Palace of Westminster
> 
> Visitors can have tours of the entire estate, or even just the garden, which has courted ITV viewers for four series
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amazing, isn't it.
> 
> Apparently, the series is literally saving this wonderful home. If I remember right, the upkeep costs $1million a year.
> 
> I LOVE the architecture in GB and Europe. We've been talking about going to see this house but this next trip is to France to see the ancient cave art. Maybe next time.
> 
> Thanks for this link.
Click to expand...


I'd love to go see it.  Maybe sometime.


----------



## Papageorgio

Luddly Neddite said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> Want to see inside the REAL Downton Abbey? From grandiose entrance halls to luxury sitting rooms, take a peek inside Britain's best known stately home and see how the aristocracy live | Mail Online
> 
> Want to see inside the REAL Downton Abbey? From grandiose entrance halls to luxury sitting rooms, take a peek inside Britain's best known stately home and see how the aristocracy live
> 
> People can buy tickets to have a tour of Highclere Castle in Newbury, Berkshire, which   was built in 1838
> 
> The 1,000-acre estate dates back to the Iron Age and has housed people for more than 1300 years
> 
> The manor in its current form was created by Sir Charles Barry, who designed the Palace of Westminster
> 
> Visitors can have tours of the entire estate, or even just the garden, which has courted ITV viewers for four series
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amazing, isn't it.
> 
> Apparently, the series is literally saving this wonderful home. If I remember right, the upkeep costs $1million a year.
> 
> I LOVE the architecture in GB and Europe. We've been talking about going to see this house but this next trip is to France to see the ancient cave art. Maybe next time.
> 
> Thanks for this link.
Click to expand...


Beautiful, the architecture from that era is stunning, wonderful how the series is preserving this wonderful building. 

I went and saw Monuments Men, I will always like FDR for sending these men not to get the great works of art, but giving it back to those that rightfully owned it.

Once a painting, a statue, a building are destroyed, you lose a look into the minds, hearts and history of a culture.


----------



## Sarah G

It's very beautiful and it's so clean.  They do close off some of the rooms, a lot of the rooms but it takes a lot to keep things looking like that.


----------



## MikeK

Luddly Neddite said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> Want to see inside the REAL Downton Abbey? From grandiose entrance halls to luxury sitting rooms, take a peek inside Britain's best known stately home and see how the aristocracy live | Mail Online
> 
> Want to see inside the REAL Downton Abbey? From grandiose entrance halls to luxury sitting rooms, take a peek inside Britain's best known stately home and see how the aristocracy live
> 
> People can buy tickets to have a tour of Highclere Castle in Newbury, Berkshire, which   was built in 1838
> 
> The 1,000-acre estate dates back to the Iron Age and has housed people for more than 1300 years
> 
> The manor in its current form was created by Sir Charles Barry, who designed the Palace of Westminster
> 
> Visitors can have tours of the entire estate, or even just the garden, which has courted ITV viewers for four series
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amazing, isn't it.
> 
> Apparently, the series is literally saving this wonderful home. If I remember right, the upkeep costs $1million a year.
> 
> I LOVE the architecture in GB and Europe. We've been talking about going to see this house but this next trip is to France to see the ancient cave art. Maybe next time.
> 
> Thanks for this link.
Click to expand...

PBS just showcased another of the Great Houses of the British Empire, this one being Wentworth Woodhouse (over 300 rooms).  







A Great House ! - Review of Wentworth Woodhouse, Rotherham, England - TripAdvisor


----------



## HenryBHough

If you follow the geographics in recent eipisodes you have often heard of Ripon and Thirsk, places I visit regularly.  The family most closely approximating The Granthams had this beautiful "house".  NEWBY HALL, located just a short distance out of Ripon and only about a dozen miles from Thirsk (also famed from "All Creatures Great and Small).  The house is open to visits; beautiful gardens, too.


----------



## Sarah G

MikeK said:


> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> Want to see inside the REAL Downton Abbey? From grandiose entrance halls to luxury sitting rooms, take a peek inside Britain's best known stately home and see how the aristocracy live | Mail Online
> 
> Want to see inside the REAL Downton Abbey? From grandiose entrance halls to luxury sitting rooms, take a peek inside Britain's best known stately home and see how the aristocracy live
> 
> People can buy tickets to have a tour of Highclere Castle in Newbury, Berkshire, which   was built in 1838
> 
> The 1,000-acre estate dates back to the Iron Age and has housed people for more than 1300 years
> 
> The manor in its current form was created by Sir Charles Barry, who designed the Palace of Westminster
> 
> Visitors can have tours of the entire estate, or even just the garden, which has courted ITV viewers for four series
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amazing, isn't it.
> 
> Apparently, the series is literally saving this wonderful home. If I remember right, the upkeep costs $1million a year.
> 
> I LOVE the architecture in GB and Europe. We've been talking about going to see this house but this next trip is to France to see the ancient cave art. Maybe next time.
> 
> Thanks for this link.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> PBS just showcased another of the Great Houses of the British Empire, this one being Wentworth Woodhouse (over 300 rooms).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Great House ! - Review of Wentworth Woodhouse, Rotherham, England - TripAdvisor
Click to expand...


The grounds are so beautiful too.


----------



## Sarah G

This Sunday is the Downton Abbey finale already.  Dat sucks!


----------



## Zander

I can't believe it. They'd better give us a 2 hour episode this Sunday!!


----------



## Sarah G

Mr. Selfridge is coming in early March if you ever watch that.


----------



## HenryBHough

Sarah G said:


> Mr. Selfridge is coming in early March if you ever watch that.



Plus there's one more season of "The Paradise" already in the can for showing after "Selfridge".  But that'll be the last one - the British network that produced the series has declined to buy any more.


----------



## Sarah G

HenryBHough said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. Selfridge is coming in early March if you ever watch that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Plus there's one more season of "The Paradise" already in the can for showing after "Selfridge".  But that'll be the last one - the British network that produced the series has declined to buy any more.
Click to expand...


I've never seen The Paradise.


----------



## HenryBHough

Sarah G said:


> HenryBHough said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. Selfridge is coming in early March if you ever watch that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Plus there's one more season of "The Paradise" already in the can for showing after "Selfridge".  But that'll be the last one - the British network that produced the series has declined to buy any more.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I've never seen The Paradise.
Click to expand...


The Paradise is based on a book (Au Bonheur des Dames) by Emile Zola.  It was based on an actual French department store - a sort of Froggie Selfridges - and became widely read both in France in England around 1883.

The stories (Selfridge and Paradise) are amazingly parallel.  The TV series similarly parallel.  Acting separately and each in ignorance of the other, The BBC started production on The Paradise at the same time Britain's ITV (Independent Television, a commercial network) started shooting Mr. Selfridge.  Not until both were well along did either become aware of the other.

Red faces all around.

Fortunately for American audiences Public Broadcasting (PBS) bought into both though by different methods.  Details can be enjoyed in a book, "Making Masterpiece" buy PBS producer Rebecca Eaton.  The book is a bit of a slog at times but does offer some insights into why some squirrelly things were done with the program over the years.

Greenies will be horrified to learn that the hated Mobil Oil Company - and later Exxon-Mobil - played major roles in the Sunday night series for years and that these days the likewise hated Koch Brothers (well, David fer sure) are major contributors.  Of course after reading this tens of foaming liberals will smash their big screens and rush to their eye doctors for cleansing.

That's all to the good!


----------



## Luddly Neddite

Sarah G said:


> This Sunday is the Downton Abbey finale already.  Dat sucks!



I know.

What's with the seasons now? They're so short. 

And yes, I do think I saw that it will be 2 hours. 

I also read that they really jump the shark with a story line about saving a member of the royal family. 

Thing is, most of the odd jumps in storyline don't really matter. That's not why we watch it or what people love about it.


----------



## Sarah G

HenryBHough said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HenryBHough said:
> 
> 
> 
> Plus there's one more season of "The Paradise" already in the can for showing after "Selfridge".  But that'll be the last one - the British network that produced the series has declined to buy any more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've never seen The Paradise.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Paradise is based on a book (Au Bonheur des Dames) by Emile Zola.  It was based on an actual French department store - a sort of Froggie Selfridges - and became widely read both in France in England around 1883.
> 
> The stories (Selfridge and Paradise) are amazingly parallel.  The TV series similarly parallel.  Acting separately and each in ignorance of the other, The BBC started production on The Paradise at the same time Britain's ITV (Independent Television, a commercial network) started shooting Mr. Selfridge.  Not until both were well along did either become aware of the other.
> 
> Red faces all around.
> 
> Fortunately for American audiences Public Broadcasting (PBS) bought into both though by different methods.  Details can be enjoyed in a book, "Making Masterpiece" buy PBS producer Rebecca Eaton.  The book is a bit of a slog at times but does offer some insights into why some squirrelly things were done with the program over the years.
> 
> Greenies will be horrified to learn that the hated Mobil Oil Company - and later Exxon-Mobil - played major roles in the Sunday night series for years and that these days the likewise hated Koch Brothers (well, David fer sure) are major contributors.  Of course after reading this tens of foaming liberals will smash their big screens and rush to their eye doctors for cleansing.
> 
> That's all to the good!
Click to expand...


Seems very familiar.  Selfridge is Moray and the love of his life is Denise and they are both cast in The Paradise.


----------



## HenryBHough

Sarah G said:


> Seems very familiar.  Selfridge is Moray and the love of his life is Denise and they are both cast in The Paradise.



Almost as if the real Selfridge set out to live Zola's story.  But, of course, Zola's tale was roughly based on the life of the founder of a real French department store and some believe Selfridge based his merchandising concept (while still in America) upon that successful store.


----------



## Sarah G

HenryBHough said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seems very familiar.  Selfridge is Moray and the love of his life is Denise and they are both cast in The Paradise.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Almost as if the real Selfridge set out to live Zola's story.  But, of course, Zola's tale was roughly based on the life of the founder of a real French department store and some believe Selfridge based his merchandising concept (while still in America) upon that successful store.
Click to expand...


Denise came up with some of the big ideas but Selfridge's seemed to come from somewhere, I felt like it was America but Paris seems more the case.


----------



## WillowTree

Sarah G said:


> This Sunday is the Downton Abbey finale already.  Dat sucks!



I've already seen it na na na nna na


----------



## Sarah G

WillowTree said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> This Sunday is the Downton Abbey finale already.  Dat sucks!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've already seen it na na na nna na
Click to expand...


Did you make a $250 pledge or something?


----------



## WillowTree

Sarah G said:


> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> This Sunday is the Downton Abbey finale already.  Dat sucks!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've already seen it na na na nna na
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Did you make a $250 pledge or something?
Click to expand...


Heck no! I bought the season four disc. It's already in the stores.

Three disc set


----------



## Sherry

WillowTree said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've already seen it na na na nna na
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did you make a $250 pledge or something?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Heck no! I bought the season four disc. It's already in the stores.
> 
> Three disc set
Click to expand...


I watched the entire season for free on the internet.

Sarah, is it the season finale as in episode 8, or is it the Christmas special??


----------



## Sarah G

Sherry said:


> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did you make a $250 pledge or something?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Heck no! I bought the season four disc. It's already in the stores.
> 
> Three disc set
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I watched the entire season for free on the internet.
> 
> Sarah, is it the season finale as in episode 8, or is it the Christmas special??
Click to expand...


Part 8.  Didn't we already see the Christmas special?  I watched Seasons 2 and 3 in November and December of 2013 so I may be getting things mixed up.


----------



## Sherry

Sarah G said:


> Sherry said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> Heck no! I bought the season four disc. It's already in the stores.
> 
> Three disc set
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I watched the entire season for free on the internet.
> 
> Sarah, is it the season finale as in episode 8, or is it the Christmas special??
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Part 8.  Didn't we already see the Christmas special?  I watched Seasons 2 and 3 in November and December of 2013 so I may be getting things mixed up.
Click to expand...


You can check it out in this link to see if it's the same...I thought the Christmas special always followed after the season ended across the pond, but I may be wrong.

Scroll down to the episodes in black boxes. The Christmas special is at the bottom.

How To Watch Downton Abbey Season 4 in the U.S.! « A Golden Afternoon


----------



## Sarah G

Sherry said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sherry said:
> 
> 
> 
> I watched the entire season for free on the internet.
> 
> Sarah, is it the season finale as in episode 8, or is it the Christmas special??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Part 8.  Didn't we already see the Christmas special?  I watched Seasons 2 and 3 in November and December of 2013 so I may be getting things mixed up.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You can check it out in this link to see if it's the same...I thought the Christmas special always followed after the season ended across the pond, but I may be wrong.
> 
> Scroll down to the episodes in black boxes. The Christmas special is at the bottom.
> 
> How To Watch Downton Abbey Season 4 in the U.S.! « A Golden Afternoon
Click to expand...


It looks like the Christmas episode is after episode 8.  It's a little better but the season seemed really short compared to the others for some reason.


----------



## MikeK

Sarah G said:


> This Sunday is the Downton Abbey finale already.  Dat sucks!


That is the worst news I've had all day.  I hope this is not the finale and there will be another season.  Downton Abbey deserves to run at least as long as Upstairs/Downstairs.


----------



## Sarah G

MikeK said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> This Sunday is the Downton Abbey finale already.  Dat sucks!
> 
> 
> 
> That is the worst news I've had all day.  I hope this is not the finale and there will be another season.  Downton Abbey deserves to run at least as long as Upstairs/Downstairs.
Click to expand...


There will be two more seasons at least.


----------



## Sarah G

There was a 20/20 on last night called Mysteries of the Castle, Beyond Downton Abbey.  I saw it last year after season 3 was over and I was watching anything I could find to fill the long days of the hiatus.  Amy Robach hosted it.

Anyone else see it?


----------



## WillowTree

The finale is not Christmas. It has to do with Rose's debutante ball and a vacation at the beach for the servants. Then you will have a 45 week wait until season 5 comes out. Season 5 might be the last.


----------



## Sarah G

I've read things like Cora will be gone as of season 6 and also that there may not be anymore after next season..  I don't see how they can stop after season 5, people still love it so much.


----------



## WillowTree

Sarah G said:


> I've read things like Cora will be gone as of season 6 and also that there may not be anymore after next season..  I don't see how they can stop after season 5, people still love it so much.



I think the Lady Mary is gonna marry Tom. I can't figure out what happened to Lady Edith's fellow unless he fell in with the Germans or that they killed him. We have so many unfinished stories. What does that Barrow guy have hanging over the new ladies maids head?


----------



## Sarah G

WillowTree said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've read things like Cora will be gone as of season 6 and also that there may not be anymore after next season..  I don't see how they can stop after season 5, people still love it so much.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think the Lady Mary is gonna marry Tom. I can't figure out what happened to Lady Edith's fellow unless he fell in with the Germans or that they killed him. We have so many unfinished stories. What does that Barrow guy have hanging over the new ladies maids head?
Click to expand...


I'm curious about Edith's man too.  He seemed like he loved her, he must have died somehow.


----------



## Sarah G

I thought Barrow got her the job and just insisted that she repay him by spying.  Now, it seems like she feels safe because people like her and so she doesn't need to do what he asks.  Her new footman friend seems to be protecting her.


----------



## HenryBHough

I think I've finally sorted out that the long episode airing tonight (2/23) is the one that aired as the 2013 Christmas Special in Britain.  Am I right?


----------



## WillowTree

HenryBHough said:


> I think I've finally sorted out that the long episode airing tonight (2/23) is the one that aired as the 2013 Christmas Special in Britain.  Am I right?



I don't know. What happened in the 2013 Christmas special that aired in Britain?


----------



## Sherry

HenryBHough said:


> I think I've finally sorted out that the long episode airing tonight (2/23) is the one that aired as the 2013 Christmas Special in Britain.  Am I right?



Season 4 premier in the UK was on Sept 22 and ran 8 episodes. In December, after the season had wrapped, they had the separate Christmas special. The season then premiered on PBS in the US on Jan 5, and I don't know if tonight is the 8th and final episode of the official season, or if it's the Christmas special. You can look in the link that I provided and start episode 8 to see if it's the one that aired last week.


----------



## MikeK

Sarah G said:


> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've read things like Cora will be gone as of season 6 and also that there may not be anymore after next season..  I don't see how they can stop after season 5, people still love it so much.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think the Lady Mary is gonna marry Tom. I can't figure out what happened to Lady Edith's fellow unless he fell in with the Germans or that they killed him. We have so many unfinished stories. What does that Barrow guy have hanging over the new ladies maids head?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm curious about Edith's man too.  He seemed like he loved her, he must have died somehow.
Click to expand...

I believed he'd gone underground somewhere in Germany and would manage to sneak out and get home.


----------



## HenryBHough

The British episode summaries I just finished reading show that last week's episode - less than an hour in length - was not their Christmas Special.  The summary of what's coming tonight - 92 minute run time - matches up with what was aired in Britain for Christmas.

I hope that's right because I'm leaving on vacation and will not turn on a TV for a couple of weeks.  Of course if there were an additional episode I'd likely surrender all my convictions and try recording it.


----------



## Sarah G

I was just reading the summary on my cable recording guide and it says from 9-11, Crawleys in London for Rose's coming out ball.  Cora's mother visits, the family finds itself in the midst of a potential scandal.

It isn't on at all according to the guide for next Sunday.


----------



## boedicca

I'm going to watch the finale because I've seen the rest of the season, but I must say that DA has completely jumped the shark.


----------



## Sherry

boedicca said:


> I'm going to watch the finale because I've seen the rest of the season, but I must say that DA has completely jumped the shark.



I don't know about completely, but I think it shouldn't try to be PC. I highly doubt during those times that someone of Mary's position in the class system would have been so generous towards Jack Ross. Maybe I'm wrong and the UK was far ahead of the US in race relations...it just seemed that on one hand they wanted it to seem scandalous, and then on the other soften it up.


----------



## Sarah G

boedicca said:


> I'm going to watch the finale because I've seen the rest of the season, but I must say that DA has completely jumped the shark.



I still liked it but they did kind of blow off the scandals like the rape and Edith being pregnant without the father of her child around.  I'm thinking about past seasons like how they handled Ethel Parks giving her son up to the grandparents after realizing that she could no longer care for him.  I broke down in tears when that kid was waving to her out the back window of the car.  That season was stellar.

Heart wrenching...

These things were kind of glossed over this season.  The clothes were very beautiful this year though.


----------



## Sherry

Sarah G said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to watch the finale because I've seen the rest of the season, but I must say that DA has completely jumped the shark.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I still liked it but they did kind of blow off the scandals like the rape and Edith being pregnant without the father of her child around.  I'm thinking about how they handled Ethel Parks giving her son up to the grandparents after realizing that she could no longer care for him.  I broke down in tears when that kid was waving to her out the back window of the car.  That season was stellar.
> 
> Heart wrenching...
> 
> These things were kind of glossed over this season.  The clothes were very beautiful this year though.
Click to expand...


I can buy a rape during those times being swept under the carpet. I think it would have been more realistic for Edith and her aunt to have traveled and left the baby with a foreign couple as the aunt originally suggested. Edith became sort of whiny about it all, but she is heartbroken after losing her love, and perhaps sees being able to glimpse the child on occasion as a way to keep him alive.


----------



## Sarah G

Sherry said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to watch the finale because I've seen the rest of the season, but I must say that DA has completely jumped the shark.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I still liked it but they did kind of blow off the scandals like the rape and Edith being pregnant without the father of her child around.  I'm thinking about how they handled Ethel Parks giving her son up to the grandparents after realizing that she could no longer care for him.  I broke down in tears when that kid was waving to her out the back window of the car.  That season was stellar.
> 
> Heart wrenching...
> 
> These things were kind of glossed over this season.  The clothes were very beautiful this year though.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I can buy a rape during those times being swept under the carpet. I think it would have been more realistic for Edith and her aunt to have traveled and left the baby with a foreign couple as the aunt originally suggested. Edith became sort of whiny about it all, but she is heartbroken after losing her love, and perhaps sees being able to glimpse the child on occasion as a way to keep him alive.
Click to expand...


Understood.  I don't like it that everybody is hanging, wondering what happened to him too.  They should tie some things up tonight.


----------



## Sherry

Sarah G said:


> Sherry said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> I still liked it but they did kind of blow off the scandals like the rape and Edith being pregnant without the father of her child around.  I'm thinking about how they handled Ethel Parks giving her son up to the grandparents after realizing that she could no longer care for him.  I broke down in tears when that kid was waving to her out the back window of the car.  That season was stellar.
> 
> Heart wrenching...
> 
> These things were kind of glossed over this season.  The clothes were very beautiful this year though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can buy a rape during those times being swept under the carpet. I think it would have been more realistic for Edith and her aunt to have traveled and left the baby with a foreign couple as the aunt originally suggested. Edith became sort of whiny about it all, but she is heartbroken after losing her love, and perhaps sees being able to glimpse the child on occasion as a way to keep him alive.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Understood.  I don't like it that everybody is hanging, wondering what happened to him too.  They should tie some things up tonight.
Click to expand...


I also think that Grandmother did not give her the proper scolding when she so cleverly cornered them to give up the truth...it goes completely against both the times and her character to have had her bite her tongue.


----------



## boedicca

What a truly horrible finale.  Terrible plot.  Terrible writing.  No respect for the characters.

Spoiler.

Mary has spent over a year mourning Matthew, a very good man who warmed up her personality.

So what does she learn from him?  As soon as she discovers that Blake is Rich Richy Aristocrat, she's ready to jump him.

Pathetic.

Truly Truly Truly Pathetic.

And I am So Tired of Robert.

The only good thing left is seeing Maggie and Shirley chew up the scenery.


----------



## WillowTree

Mary is a snob, she's always been a snob, but she saved Bates ass.


----------



## HenryBHough

It sure looks like Bates did something unkindly to the rapist but there are enough bits left dangling that he might yet be proven innocent.  Not in any court; rather in the minds of the audience.  This one may yet have wheels within wheels.

As to Mary, the vibe I got was that she liked the newest suitor better than the somewhat stuffy earlier one but pushed him away not because he wasn't of the right class but rather because he seemed to be a bureaucratic tool intent on destroying the big estates.  

This ain't over.

Wondering, though, whether there will be a sixth season (five is assured) as Julian Fellowes has signed on for some heavy duty scripting away from the series.  Add to that the time-frame; it's fast approaching World War II which, in a series like this, could amount to a reply of episodes in the past.


----------



## boedicca

WillowTree said:


> Mary is a snob, she's always been a snob, but she saved Bates ass.





Mrs. Whatsit shouldn't have given Mary the ticket and the power over Bates in the first place.

Just sayin'.


And, I'll note how the actress playing Ivy found a convenient way to bail out of this hulking sinking ship....


----------



## Sarah G

boedicca said:


> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mary is a snob, she's always been a snob, but she saved Bates ass.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mrs. Whatsit shouldn't have given Mary the ticket and the power over Bates in the first place.
> 
> Just sayin'.
> 
> 
> And, I'll note how the actress playing Ivy found a convenient way to bail out of this hulking sinking ship....
Click to expand...


We get that you hate it.  Let everyone else enjoy it and don't spoil it for people who haven't seen the episode yet.

Please?


----------



## MikeK

The tv guide showed Downton Abbey as 9 to 11 PM, promising two full hours.  But they unexpectedly pulled the plug at 10:30, bursting the anticipation bubble my imagination had created and leaving a number of threads dangle 'til Season Five.  On the positive side I'm glad there is another season to look forward to.  

Mrs. Hughes has diminished my affection for her by running to Mary with evidence that could seriously compromise Bates, and then moaning in lament of the likely consequence of her action.  But in spite of it Bates has established a very strong position in the household, having rescued the Prince of Wales' reputation, thus preserving the integrity of Downton.  

Recalling that Robert once nearly let it all hang out with a chambermaid I can only wonder how he will deal with the dirt delivered by Thomas Barrow concerning Branson's invited visitor.  It's been made clear that Robert doesn't like Barrow, so there is hope we might see this slimy character excoriated by Carson and banished without a reference.  Meanwhile I will entertain the fantasy of Mr. Mosely getting drunk and beating the hell out of Barrow.


----------



## Zander

Excellent article here.....&#39;Downton Abbey&#39; Insufferability Index: The Final One - The Wire



> Last night we bid farewell to another season of Downton Abbey with a coming out ball, some royal hijinks, and a dip in the ocean. Before we say goodbye to these lords and ladies for another year, we'll evaluate who closed out the season in sufferable, or insufferable fashion.....


----------



## MikeK

HenryBHough said:


> It sure looks like Bates did something unkindly to the rapist but there are enough bits left dangling that he might yet be proven innocent.  Not in any court; rather in the minds of the audience.  This one may yet have wheels within wheels.


I had the same thoughts, mainly because of the vague manner in which the Bates/Green issue has been presented.  All we've seen is Bates strolling, wearing a bowler and a serious expression.  If Bates travels to Picadilly with the intention of confronting Green, and if Green spots him, panics, runs carelessly into traffic and is killed, Bates in effect gets the job done without doing it.  A situational contraceptive.  



> As to Mary, the vibe I got was that she liked the newest suitor better than the somewhat stuffy earlier one but pushed him away not because he wasn't of the right class but rather because he seemed to be a bureaucratic tool intent on destroying the big estates.


Mary has become rather annoying.  If she hadn't come to terms with her disgustingly hypocritical sense of morality and redeemed herself by burning that ticket I would be hoping for her indiscretion with the Turk to be revealed and crush her with disgrace.  



> This ain't over.
> 
> Wondering, though, whether there will be a sixth season (five is assured) as Julian Fellowes has signed on for some heavy duty scripting away from the series.  Add to that the time-frame; it's fast approaching World War II which, in a series like this, could amount to a reply of episodes in the past.


All we can do is hope.  But what you've said here portends disappointment.  For me, the end of Downton Abbey will be the loss of a friend. 

I'm sure that by now the writing staff is sufficiently familiar with the characters'  personalities to carry them through a long series of continuing episodes without Fellowes, or with minimal coaching from him.  They have everything they need to proceed.  They have the sets, wardrobe, and key members of the cast.  And they have an enthusiastic audience.   Downton could go on at least as long as Upstairs/Downstairs and would retain just as devoted a following if not moreso.


----------



## Zander

One thing we know about Mary, she will do whatever she needs to in order to preserve her way of life....

that leads me to think Gillingham is out!! Charlie has more cash!!


----------



## Papageorgio

The issue with Bates will some how live on, I'm thinking there might be an investigation. 

Barrow, is an ass and not even like able.

Mary's sudden interest in rich men is some what nauseating.

However, the show is refreshing TV and I can't wait until next seas...year.


----------



## Luddly Neddite

Some have said that Anna is annoying or Mary is annoying or Edith is annoying ... 

What I've seen is their characters are well written and accurate for the time they lived in. 

The scene by the side of the road, where (sorry, I'm terrible at remembering their names) the ex-chauffeur/Sybil's widowed husband helped Miss Bunting with her car. That was surprising because, in those days, women simply would not be out driving alone. Nor would they own a car because they would not have had money of their own with which to buy it.

Mary does have the responsibility of the estate's future riding on her shoulders. Anna would have been considered soiled goods by many and Edith being pregnant out of wedlock would have gotten her ostracized by many of her station. 

Something that I found annoying was that Mary wasn't sure she would be loyal to Bates and keep the secret of the train tickets UNTIL after he saved the Prince of Wales from his own shenanigans. But, I suspect that attitude would also have been typical of the time. 

In any event - the end of the season has the entire planet is in mourning.


----------



## MikeK

Zander said:


> One thing we know about Mary, she will do whatever she needs to in order to preserve her way of life....
> 
> that leads me to think Gillingham is out!! Charlie has more cash!!


The interlude in the pig sty suggests you are right.


----------



## boedicca

Sarah G said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mary is a snob, she's always been a snob, but she saved Bates ass.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mrs. Whatsit shouldn't have given Mary the ticket and the power over Bates in the first place.
> 
> Just sayin'.
> 
> 
> And, I'll note how the actress playing Ivy found a convenient way to bail out of this hulking sinking ship....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We get that you hate it.  Let everyone else enjoy it and don't spoil it for people who haven't seen the episode yet.
> 
> Please?
Click to expand...



As if I'm the only one who is disappointed.

Other people have posted spoilers etc. in this thread, so I'll post whatever I care to.


----------



## boedicca

Zander said:


> One thing we know about Mary, she will do whatever she needs to in order to preserve her way of life....
> 
> that leads me to think Gillingham is out!! Charlie has more cash!!




Of course.

Like father, like daughter....


----------



## MikeK

Luddly Neddite said:


> Some have said that Anna is annoying or Mary is annoying or Edith is annoying ...


I found Anna annoying because it was her naïve and frivolously playful conduct around Green that encouraged him and prompted what developed into forcible rape.  Bates realized the implications of her receptive behavior and twice tried to snap her out of it.  But she dismissed him.  Then, having foolishly provoked the incident, she is critical of Bates' reaction and is bitching about it.  

I don't find Edith annoying because she is the well-meaning victim of continuing misfortune.  




> Something that I found annoying was that Mary wasn't sure she would be loyal to Bates and keep the secret of the train tickets UNTIL after he saved the Prince of Wales from his own shenanigans. But, I suspect that attitude would also have been typical of the time.


That pretty much summarizes Mary's persona, which is innately aristocratic, self-serving, and the diametric opposite of Sybil and Edith.


----------



## WillowTree

MikeK said:


> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some have said that Anna is annoying or Mary is annoying or Edith is annoying ...
> 
> 
> 
> I found Anna annoying because it was her naïve and frivolously playful conduct around Green that encouraged him and prompted what developed into forcible rape.  Bates realized the implications of her receptive behavior and twice tried to snap her out of it.  But she dismissed him.  Then, having foolishly provoked the incident, she is critical of Bates' reaction and is bitching about it.
> 
> I don't find Edith annoying because she is the well-meaning victim of continuing misfortune.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Something that I found annoying was that Mary wasn't sure she would be loyal to Bates and keep the secret of the train tickets UNTIL after he saved the Prince of Wales from his own shenanigans. But, I suspect that attitude would also have been typical of the time.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That pretty much summarizes Mary's persona, which is innately aristocratic, self-serving, and the diametric opposite of Sybil and Edith.
Click to expand...


bullshit,


----------



## Sarah G

Luddly Neddite said:


> Some have said that Anna is annoying or Mary is annoying or Edith is annoying ...
> 
> What I've seen is their characters are well written and accurate for the time they lived in.
> 
> The scene by the side of the road, where (sorry, I'm terrible at remembering their names) the ex-chauffeur/Sybil's widowed husband helped Miss Bunting with her car. That was surprising because, in those days, women simply would not be out driving alone. Nor would they own a car because they would not have had money of their own with which to buy it.
> 
> Mary does have the responsibility of the estate's future riding on her shoulders. Anna would have been considered soiled goods by many and Edith being pregnant out of wedlock would have gotten her ostracized by many of her station.
> 
> Something that I found annoying was that Mary wasn't sure she would be loyal to Bates and keep the secret of the train tickets UNTIL after he saved the Prince of Wales from his own shenanigans. But, I suspect that attitude would also have been typical of the time.
> 
> In any event - the end of the season has the entire planet is in mourning.



Tom Branson.  I do not like the school teacher, she's going to get him in big trouble with her curiosity.  

Barrow is really getting gossipy but he needs to stick around just to give us something to hate.  How about that little weasel Daisy?  She was almost gleeful that Ivy asked to go to the states.


----------



## Big Black Dog

Sarah G said:


> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some have said that Anna is annoying or Mary is annoying or Edith is annoying ...
> 
> What I've seen is their characters are well written and accurate for the time they lived in.
> 
> The scene by the side of the road, where (sorry, I'm terrible at remembering their names) the ex-chauffeur/Sybil's widowed husband helped Miss Bunting with her car. That was surprising because, in those days, women simply would not be out driving alone. Nor would they own a car because they would not have had money of their own with which to buy it.
> 
> Mary does have the responsibility of the estate's future riding on her shoulders. Anna would have been considered soiled goods by many and Edith being pregnant out of wedlock would have gotten her ostracized by many of her station.
> 
> Something that I found annoying was that Mary wasn't sure she would be loyal to Bates and keep the secret of the train tickets UNTIL after he saved the Prince of Wales from his own shenanigans. But, I suspect that attitude would also have been typical of the time.
> 
> In any event - the end of the season has the entire planet is in mourning.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tom Branson.  I do not like the school teacher, she's going to get him in big trouble with her curiosity.
> 
> Barrow is really getting gossipy but he needs to stick around just to give us something to hate.  How about that little weasel Daisy?  She was almost gleeful that Ivy asked to go to the states.
Click to expand...


Daisy.  A weasel?  You're kidding, right?  I like Daisy.


----------



## Sarah G

MikeK said:


> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some have said that Anna is annoying or Mary is annoying or Edith is annoying ...
> 
> 
> 
> I found Anna annoying because it was her naïve and frivolously playful conduct around Green that encouraged him and prompted what developed into forcible rape.  Bates realized the implications of her receptive behavior and twice tried to snap her out of it.  But she dismissed him.  Then, having foolishly provoked the incident, she is critical of Bates' reaction and is bitching about it.
> 
> I don't find Edith annoying because she is the well-meaning victim of continuing misfortune.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Something that I found annoying was that Mary wasn't sure she would be loyal to Bates and keep the secret of the train tickets UNTIL after he saved the Prince of Wales from his own shenanigans. But, I suspect that attitude would also have been typical of the time.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That pretty much summarizes Mary's persona, which is innately aristocratic, self-serving, and the diametric opposite of Sybil and Edith.
Click to expand...


Blaming the victim again?  She didn't prompt him to violently attack her, you're nuts.


----------



## HenryBHough

I think Branson's ripe for a break but whether it might be with the leftist teacher or in flight from?  Of course she may simply come a cropper and vanish.  This smells like one of Fellowes subtle threats to cast members who are getting restless.  Write the story in such a way that they can foresee any demands might be met by being shown the door.  

Daisy?  That girls not as stupid as she first seemed and may yet find herself with Alfred and in America.

We must watch negotiations for a sixth season.  Whether or not there is to be one will make a big difference in what happens in the last three or four (more likely three) episodes of season five.


----------



## Sarah G

Big Black Dog said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some have said that Anna is annoying or Mary is annoying or Edith is annoying ...
> 
> What I've seen is their characters are well written and accurate for the time they lived in.
> 
> The scene by the side of the road, where (sorry, I'm terrible at remembering their names) the ex-chauffeur/Sybil's widowed husband helped Miss Bunting with her car. That was surprising because, in those days, women simply would not be out driving alone. Nor would they own a car because they would not have had money of their own with which to buy it.
> 
> Mary does have the responsibility of the estate's future riding on her shoulders. Anna would have been considered soiled goods by many and Edith being pregnant out of wedlock would have gotten her ostracized by many of her station.
> 
> Something that I found annoying was that Mary wasn't sure she would be loyal to Bates and keep the secret of the train tickets UNTIL after he saved the Prince of Wales from his own shenanigans. But, I suspect that attitude would also have been typical of the time.
> 
> In any event - the end of the season has the entire planet is in mourning.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tom Branson.  I do not like the school teacher, she's going to get him in big trouble with her curiosity.
> 
> Barrow is really getting gossipy but he needs to stick around just to give us something to hate.  How about that little weasel Daisy?  She was almost gleeful that Ivy asked to go to the states.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Daisy.  A weasel?  You're kidding, right?  I like Daisy.
Click to expand...


Oh she's a weasel alright.  She still has Alfred on her mind and she wants Ivy gone just in case...


----------



## Sarah G

HenryBHough said:


> I think Branson's ripe for a break but whether it might be with the leftist teacher or in flight from?  Of course she may simply come a cropper and vanish.  This smells like one of Fellowes subtle threats to cast members who are getting restless.  Write the story in such a way that they can foresee any demands might be met by being shown the door.
> 
> Daisy?  That girls not as stupid as she first seemed and may yet find herself with Alfred and in America.
> 
> We must watch negotiations for a sixth season.  Whether or not there is to be one will make a big difference in what happens in the last three or four (more likely three) episodes of season five.



What if there is a spinoff to the US part of the family?  Wouldn't that be good?


----------



## Starlight

I thought maybe Bates went to London to kill the rapist, but that before he could do it,
another of the rapists victims husbands, killed him, or even another one of his victims.


----------



## Sarah G

Starlight said:


> I thought maybe Bates went to London to kill the rapist, but that before he could do it,
> another of the rapists victims husbands, killed him, or even another one of his victims.



Now that would be convenient for Bates.


----------



## HenryBHough

Sarah G said:


> What if there is a spinoff to the US part of the family?  Wouldn't that be good?



Good potential in that.

Obstacles:

1.  Fellowes couldn't write it.  He is so good at what he does because so much of his knowledge is related to his personal place in life.  Remember, he IS in The House of Lords.  He has no direct insight into American "society".

2.  PBS is not known for producing series all on its own.  It partners with others.  Both BBC and ITV have repeatedly entertained mini-series based on American themes but their few attempts have met with limited success.

On the other hand, Cora's mother did drop a hint when she spoke of "a cottage on Bellevue Avenue".  That might have flown right past viewers (especially British ones) who have no idea of the implications of street names in Newport, Rhode Island.  It could have been just a throw-away line - or perhaps it was meant to be more.

Were I to attempt to write part of the fifth or even sixth season I'd toy with Branson finding himself in America but accompanied by TWO children.  His own and............   Then the question of who else might make the trip.  And how MANY "who elses".

Chances of my writing any of it are slim to nil so you're safe.


----------



## Sarah G

HenryBHough said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> What if there is a spinoff to the US part of the family?  Wouldn't that be good?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good potential in that.
> 
> Obstacles:
> 
> 1.  Fellowes couldn't write it.  He is so good at what he does because so much of his knowledge is related to his personal place in life.  Remember, he IS in The House of Lords.  He has no direct insight into American "society".
> 
> 2.  PBS is not known for producing series all on its own.  It partners with others.  Both BBC and ITV have repeatedly entertained mini-series based on American themes but their few attempts have met with limited success.
> 
> On the other hand, Cora's mother did drop a hint when she spoke of "a cottage on Bellevue Avenue".  That might have flown right past viewers (especially British ones) who have no idea of the implications of street names in Newport, Rhode Island.  It could have been just a throw-away line - or perhaps it was meant to be more.
> 
> Were I to attempt to write part of the fifth or even sixth season I'd toy with Branson finding himself in America but accompanied by TWO children.  His own and............   Then the question of who else might make the trip.  And how MANY "who elses".
> 
> Chances of my writing any of it are slim to nil so you're safe.
Click to expand...


Love Newport RI.  I think it's too soon for speculation about Downton ending.


----------



## HenryBHough

Speculating beyond Downton.....

Let us hope the magic continues for one season beyond the currently projected five.  But let's not get greedy.  Time flows in the series as well as in real life and it's approaching a time where reality and skills diverge.

Think about some realities.  BBC/ItV (British) interests and audiences argue against a "Granthams in America" series which causes some funding considerations.  PBS does some production but the scale required seems unreasonable for them.  But perhaps not for some American entity.  Who?  At one time I'd suggest A&E but not with their current management and programming.  Perhaps HBO?  Some dark-horses; Hulu might be one but Apple is about to launch a new "Apple TV" product and is exploring new avenues as did SONY when they branched out of making consumer electronics and into music then films.  Wouldn't a great launch product for such an effort be an obvious Downton offshoot with as much of the original cast as possible?

OK, so what's in it for BBC?  What's in it for PBS?

Money.

Somebody holds a lot of rights to the intellectual property itself.  Fellows logically might own a pretty good chunk.  If someone were willing to pay for those rights could any of the parties refuse?  Perhaps Fellowes on creative grounds but he's not young and heirs might feel pressed for cash.

Now there's cash and incentive to cash in for an American producer.  But not a traditional network.  They're dying and have changed hands often enough that there's no money for anything of this scope.

A lot is going to depend on things external to Downton.  How's the economy?  What regulatory things might happen?  Could a botched season 5 (more likely 6) kill the franchise?

What might the word "Viking" have to do with any of this?  C'mon, toy with THAT!


----------



## MikeK

Big Black Dog said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some have said that Anna is annoying or Mary is annoying or Edith is annoying ...
> 
> What I've seen is their characters are well written and accurate for the time they lived in.
> 
> The scene by the side of the road, where (sorry, I'm terrible at remembering their names) the ex-chauffeur/Sybil's widowed husband helped Miss Bunting with her car. That was surprising because, in those days, women simply would not be out driving alone. Nor would they own a car because they would not have had money of their own with which to buy it.
> 
> Mary does have the responsibility of the estate's future riding on her shoulders. Anna would have been considered soiled goods by many and Edith being pregnant out of wedlock would have gotten her ostracized by many of her station.
> 
> Something that I found annoying was that Mary wasn't sure she would be loyal to Bates and keep the secret of the train tickets UNTIL after he saved the Prince of Wales from his own shenanigans. But, I suspect that attitude would also have been typical of the time.
> 
> In any event - the end of the season has the entire planet is in mourning.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tom Branson.  I do not like the school teacher, she's going to get him in big trouble with her curiosity.
> 
> Barrow is really getting gossipy but he needs to stick around just to give us something to hate.  How about that little weasel Daisy?  She was almost gleeful that Ivy asked to go to the states.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Daisy.  A weasel?  You're kidding, right?  I like Daisy.
Click to expand...

Women see these things very differently from men.  _(Vive le difference!)_

I like Daisy, too.  She reminds me of my youngest when they were kids.  She was always at odds with her older sisters but stubbornly defended them with others.


----------



## MikeK

Sarah G said:


> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some have said that Anna is annoying or Mary is annoying or Edith is annoying ...
> 
> 
> 
> I found Anna annoying because it was her naïve and frivolously playful conduct around Green that encouraged him and prompted what developed into forcible rape.  Bates realized the implications of her receptive behavior and twice tried to snap her out of it.  But she dismissed him.  Then, having foolishly provoked the incident, she is critical of Bates' reaction and is bitching about it.
> 
> I don't find Edith annoying because she is the well-meaning victim of continuing misfortune.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Something that I found annoying was that Mary wasn't sure she would be loyal to Bates and keep the secret of the train tickets UNTIL after he saved the Prince of Wales from his own shenanigans. But, I suspect that attitude would also have been typical of the time.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That pretty much summarizes Mary's persona, which is innately aristocratic, self-serving, and the diametric opposite of Sybil and Edith.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Blaming the victim again?  She didn't prompt him to violently attack her, you're nuts.
Click to expand...

I'm not blaming the victim.  You are simply refusing to acknowledge there are men who regard a woman's friendly playfulness as receptiveness to sexual overture.  When such men are then rejected they either think they've been teased or they believe the woman "likes it rough."  This is a very common rape scenario and it's too bad you're not aware of it. 

If you have attractive daughters your attitude will leave them vulnerable.  You need to understand that most men have one thing in mind when transacting with attractive women.  That's not a crime.  It's Nature.  Some men translate a naïve woman's receptive response to their _friendly_ advances as encouragement.  When their advances are later rejected they get angry.  And some will not take no for an answer.

This is exactly what happened in the Anna/Green situation.


----------



## boedicca

Sarah G said:


> Big Black Dog said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tom Branson.  I do not like the school teacher, she's going to get him in big trouble with her curiosity.
> 
> Barrow is really getting gossipy but he needs to stick around just to give us something to hate.  How about that little weasel Daisy?  She was almost gleeful that Ivy asked to go to the states.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Daisy.  A weasel?  You're kidding, right?  I like Daisy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh she's a weasel alright.  She still has Alfred on her mind and she wants Ivy gone just in case...
Click to expand...




That's not weaselly.   Ivy was the one who jumped on the chance to go to the U.S.  She didn't have to do it if she didn't want to.  If Ivy had wanted Alfred, she had plenty of opportunities to bag him.  She didn't.  So, there is nothing wrong if Daisy does continue  to harbor affection for him.


----------



## boedicca

Starlight said:


> I thought maybe Bates went to London to kill the rapist, but that before he could do it,
> another of the rapists victims husbands, killed him, or even another one of his victims.





Or....Bates' first wife isn't really dead.   The body was her long lost twin sister.  The first wife is secretly stalking him and trying to set him up for murder, again.


----------



## MikeK

HenryBHough said:


> Speculating beyond Downton.....
> 
> Let us hope the magic continues for one season beyond the currently projected five.  But let's not get greedy.  Time flows in the series as well as in real life and it's approaching a time where reality and skills diverge.
> 
> Think about some realities.  BBC/ItV (British) interests and audiences argue against a "Granthams in America" series which causes some funding considerations.  PBS does some production but the scale required seems unreasonable for them.  But perhaps not for some American entity.  Who?  At one time I'd suggest A&E but not with their current management and programming.  Perhaps HBO?  Some dark-horses; Hulu might be one but Apple is about to launch a new "Apple TV" product and is exploring new avenues as did SONY when they branched out of making consumer electronics and into music then films.  Wouldn't a great launch product for such an effort be an obvious Downton offshoot with as much of the original cast as possible?
> 
> OK, so what's in it for BBC?  What's in it for PBS?
> 
> Money.
> 
> Somebody holds a lot of rights to the intellectual property itself.  Fellows logically might own a pretty good chunk.  If someone were willing to pay for those rights could any of the parties refuse?  Perhaps Fellowes on creative grounds but he's not young and heirs might feel pressed for cash.
> 
> Now there's cash and incentive to cash in for an American producer.  But not a traditional network.  They're dying and have changed hands often enough that there's no money for anything of this scope.
> 
> A lot is going to depend on things external to Downton.  How's the economy?  What regulatory things might happen?  Could a botched season 5 (more likely 6) kill the franchise?
> 
> What might the word "Viking" have to do with any of this?  C'mon, toy with THAT!


While I do respect your energetic analysis, how do you account for the _sixty-eight_ episodes of _Upstairs/Downstairs?_

_Downton Abbey_ is a winner.  A very big winner.  It can make a lot of money for some entity, whether PBS, the BBC, whomever or whatever.  What remains now is negotiation.


----------



## MikeK

Sarah G said:


> HenryBHough said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think Branson's ripe for a break but whether it might be with the leftist teacher or in flight from?  Of course she may simply come a cropper and vanish.  This smells like one of Fellowes subtle threats to cast members who are getting restless.  Write the story in such a way that they can foresee any demands might be met by being shown the door.
> 
> Daisy?  That girls not as stupid as she first seemed and may yet find herself with Alfred and in America.
> 
> We must watch negotiations for a sixth season.  Whether or not there is to be one will make a big difference in what happens in the last three or four (more likely three) episodes of season five.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What if there is a spinoff to the US part of the family?  Wouldn't that be good?
Click to expand...

The idea of bringing any aspect of Downton Abbey into a U.S. setting is analogous to adding cheeseburgers to a Chinese menu.  

Downton Abbey takes us away to old England.  Bring me back and I won't watch it anymore.


----------



## HenryBHough

Upstairs/Downstairs spaced the episodes differently.  Between the most immediate two DA episodes more than a year elapsed.  Were that to continue sixty-eight episodes would have the series predicting the future.

Nothing to say the spacing twixt programs could not be changed, so your point may be very valid. 

Assuming that interval timing were adjusted then the next variable is Fellowes himself.  I really think turning the writing over to someone else has disaster potential.  Observe when there was a radical shift in directors between "episodes" of the Harry Potter movie series.


----------



## Starlight

boedicca said:


> Starlight said:
> 
> 
> 
> I thought maybe Bates went to London to kill the rapist, but that before he could do it,
> another of the rapists victims husbands, killed him, or even another one of his victims.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or....Bates' first wife isn't really dead.   The body was her long lost twin sister.  The first wife is secretly stalking him and trying to set him up for murder, again.
Click to expand...


That's a thought too, boedicca...could very well happen. She certainly hated him.


----------



## MikeK

HenryBHough said:


> [...]
> 
> Assuming that interval timing were adjusted then the next variable is Fellowes himself.  I really think turning the writing over to someone else has disaster potential.  Observe when there was a radical shift in directors between "episodes" of the Harry Potter movie series.


Being as familiar with the series as you evidently are, do you believe you could collaborate competently on the writing staff of a new episode of _Downton Abbey?_

I believe you could.  

There would need to be at least one knowledgeable Brit on staff to monitor language and technical accuracy, and at least one experienced screenwriter to manage time sequences, but you know all the characters and you have a thorough awareness of the Family's overall situation.  And I can tell you are imaginative and interesting.

While it's true that Julian Fellowes created _Downton Abbey,_ it's also true that while Chopin created _Tristesse_ there are many who can play it at least as well as he.


----------



## Sarah G

MikeK said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> I found Anna annoying because it was her naïve and frivolously playful conduct around Green that encouraged him and prompted what developed into forcible rape.  Bates realized the implications of her receptive behavior and twice tried to snap her out of it.  But she dismissed him.  Then, having foolishly provoked the incident, she is critical of Bates' reaction and is bitching about it.
> 
> I don't find Edith annoying because she is the well-meaning victim of continuing misfortune.
> 
> 
> 
> That pretty much summarizes Mary's persona, which is innately aristocratic, self-serving, and the diametric opposite of Sybil and Edith.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Blaming the victim again?  She didn't prompt him to violently attack her, you're nuts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm not blaming the victim.  You are simply refusing to acknowledge there are men who regard a woman's friendly playfulness as receptiveness to sexual overture.  When such men are then rejected they either think they've been teased or they believe the woman "likes it rough."  This is a very common rape scenario and it's too bad you're not aware of it.
> 
> If you have attractive daughters your attitude will leave them vulnerable.  You need to understand that most men have one thing in mind when transacting with attractive women.  That's not a crime.  It's Nature.  Some men translate a naïve woman's receptive response to their _friendly_ advances as encouragement.  When their advances are later rejected they get angry.  And some will not take no for an answer.
> 
> This is exactly what happened in the Anna/Green situation.
Click to expand...


You are wrong.  I let you get away with it once because you said I misunderstood your position but I didn't misunderstand a second time.  Women do not intice men to this kind of violence by being fun and friendly.  That is just ignorant on your part.

There is short circuiting in a rapist's brain that tells him it's ok because she seemed to him to be welcoming it.  His advances are not sexual and she isn't asking for what he is interested in.  It's violence, everyone knows that.

These days, women tell.  Back then, they faced your kind of archaic mindset so that made them afraid to.  They felt that they caused it to happen as it were men who ran everything and put this thought into their heads.  The women knew she would have zero support because she allowed herself to laugh, have fun, be flirtateous.  

Sorry but you couldn't be more wrong and you were blaming the victim.


----------



## MikeK

Sarah G said:


> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> Blaming the victim again?  She didn't prompt him to violently attack her, you're nuts.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not blaming the victim.  You are simply refusing to acknowledge there are men who regard a woman's friendly playfulness as receptiveness to sexual overture.  When such men are then rejected they either think they've been teased or they believe the woman "likes it rough."  This is a very common rape scenario and it's too bad you're not aware of it.
> 
> If you have attractive daughters your attitude will leave them vulnerable.  You need to understand that most men have one thing in mind when transacting with attractive women.  That's not a crime.  It's Nature.  Some men translate a naïve woman's receptive response to their _friendly_ advances as encouragement.  When their advances are later rejected they get angry.  And some will not take no for an answer.
> 
> This is exactly what happened in the Anna/Green situation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are wrong.  I let you get away with it once because you said I misunderstood your position but I didn't misunderstand a second time.  Women do not intice men to this kind of violence by being fun and friendly.  That is just ignorant on your part.
> 
> There is short circuiting in a rapist's brain that tells him it's ok because she seemed to him to be welcoming it.  His advances are not sexual and she isn't asking for what he is interested in.  It's violence, everyone knows that.
> 
> These days, women tell.  Back then, they faced your kind of archaic mindset so that made them afraid to.  They felt that they caused it to happen as it were men who ran everything and put this thought into their heads.  The women knew she would have zero support because she allowed herself to laugh, have fun, be flirtateous.
> 
> Sorry but you couldn't be more wrong and you were blaming the victim.
Click to expand...

_Methinks the lady doth protest too much._  But I'm sure she has a reason.

I hope you don't have any young attractive daughters to pass your ideas onto because you surely will leave them vulnerable to a situation commonly known as "date rape," which typically comes about as the result of misunderstood signals.  Not because the man's brain is "short-circuited."


----------



## Sarah G

MikeK said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not blaming the victim.  You are simply refusing to acknowledge there are men who regard a woman's friendly playfulness as receptiveness to sexual overture.  When such men are then rejected they either think they've been teased or they believe the woman "likes it rough."  This is a very common rape scenario and it's too bad you're not aware of it.
> 
> If you have attractive daughters your attitude will leave them vulnerable.  You need to understand that most men have one thing in mind when transacting with attractive women.  That's not a crime.  It's Nature.  Some men translate a naïve woman's receptive response to their _friendly_ advances as encouragement.  When their advances are later rejected they get angry.  And some will not take no for an answer.
> 
> This is exactly what happened in the Anna/Green situation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are wrong.  I let you get away with it once because you said I misunderstood your position but I didn't misunderstand a second time.  Women do not intice men to this kind of violence by being fun and friendly.  That is just ignorant on your part.
> 
> There is short circuiting in a rapist's brain that tells him it's ok because she seemed to him to be welcoming it.  His advances are not sexual and she isn't asking for what he is interested in.  It's violence, everyone knows that.
> 
> These days, women tell.  Back then, they faced your kind of archaic mindset so that made them afraid to.  They felt that they caused it to happen as it were men who ran everything and put this thought into their heads.  The women knew she would have zero support because she allowed herself to laugh, have fun, be flirtateous.
> 
> Sorry but you couldn't be more wrong and you were blaming the victim.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> _Methinks the lady doth protest too much._  But I'm sure she has a reason.
> 
> I hope you don't have any young attractive daughters to pass your ideas onto because you surely will leave them vulnerable to a situation commonly known as "date rape," which typically comes about as the result of misunderstood signals.  Not because the man's brain is "short-circuited."
Click to expand...


And I hope you don't have sons that you can pass your archaic ideas that because a woman is friendly and having fun, it's ok to brutally beat and rape her if she resists his advances.


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## WillowTree

So here's the deal. I've been watching season 4 over again, they're in a poker game in London and Samson the dude who got caught cheating at Downton by Gregsson (Edith's chap) says something about Gregson being missing. No one ever said that publicly. So far it's been just between Edith, her dad and her grandma and the aunt. So, I'm betting Gregson never made it to Germany, I'm betting Samson killed him trying to get the poker money back because he didn't realize that Gregson had already given the money back to the Earl.


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## MikeK

Sarah G said:


> And I hope you don't have sons that you can pass your archaic ideas that because a woman is friendly and having fun, it's ok to brutally beat and rape her if she resists his advances.


I have no sons.  I have three daughters, each of whom was made aware of the kind of mistake we saw Anna make with Mr. Green, the "friendly" valet.  The simple fact which you refuse to accept is there are men who interpret the slightest flirtatiously playful behavior, especially on the part of a married woman, as deliberate enticement.  

In the _Downton Abbey_ scenario we saw Bates watch Anna sending exactly that signal and he tried to warn her.  What is it you don't understand about something which every attractive, smart young woman should know?


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## Papageorgio

MikeK said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> And I hope you don't have sons that you can pass your archaic ideas that because a woman is friendly and having fun, it's ok to brutally beat and rape her if she resists his advances.
> 
> 
> 
> I have no sons.  I have three daughters, each of whom was made aware of the kind of mistake we saw Anna make with Mr. Green, the "friendly" valet.  The simple fact which you refuse to accept is there are men who interpret the slightest flirtatiously playful behavior, especially on the part of a married woman, as deliberate enticement.
> 
> In the _Downton Abbey_ scenario we saw Bates watch Anna sending exactly that signal and he tried to warn her.  What is it you don't understand about something which every attractive, smart young woman should know?
Click to expand...


She didn't send any signals, he simply took what he wanted. He wanted power. Normal men know the lines and the boundaries of human interaction. A rapist knows no bounds. He would rape no matter what the woman, wore, said or did not say. It is power, it is a disconnect in their mind.


----------



## Sarah G

MikeK said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> And I hope you don't have sons that you can pass your archaic ideas that because a woman is friendly and having fun, it's ok to brutally beat and rape her if she resists his advances.
> 
> 
> 
> I have no sons.  I have three daughters, each of whom was made aware of the kind of mistake we saw Anna make with Mr. Green, the "friendly" valet.  The simple fact which you refuse to accept is there are men who interpret the slightest flirtatiously playful behavior, especially on the part of a married woman, as deliberate enticement.
> 
> In the _Downton Abbey_ scenario we saw Bates watch Anna sending exactly that signal and he tried to warn her.  What is it you don't understand about something which every attractive, smart young woman should know?
Click to expand...


What is it that you don't understand about men who see women as complete objects that they can take at will?  It is not up to you to judge whether she is dressed properly, behaving in a way that might get her beaten and raped, whether she's too pretty, laughing too much, having too much fun or too anything.  

It's a mindset like yours that has held women back and in fear and also has given these psychotic men an excuse for their violent urges.  Well, she was "asking" for it.  

Sorry, you're wrong here.  Unbelievably wrong.  To the point of being creepy.


----------



## MikeK

Sarah G said:


> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> And I hope you don't have sons that you can pass your archaic ideas that because a woman is friendly and having fun, it's ok to brutally beat and rape her if she resists his advances.
> 
> 
> 
> I have no sons.  I have three daughters, each of whom was made aware of the kind of mistake we saw Anna make with Mr. Green, the "friendly" valet.  The simple fact which you refuse to accept is there are men who interpret the slightest flirtatiously playful behavior, especially on the part of a married woman, as deliberate enticement.
> 
> In the _Downton Abbey_ scenario we saw Bates watch Anna sending exactly that signal and he tried to warn her.  What is it you don't understand about something which every attractive, smart young woman should know?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What is it that you don't understand about men who see women as complete objects that they can take at will?  It is not up to you to judge whether she is dressed properly, behaving in a way that might get her beaten and raped, whether she's too pretty, laughing too much, having too much fun or too anything.
> 
> It's a mindset like yours that has held women back and in fear and also has given these psychotic men an excuse for their violent urges.  Well, she was "asking" for it.
> 
> Sorry, you're wrong here.  Unbelievably wrong.  To the point of being creepy.
Click to expand...

Referring again to the Anna scenario; what do you suppose Bates was trying to warn Anna about when she was transacting frivolously (playing) with Green?   Do you think Bates was perceiving Anna as an object and trying to hold her back?  

And where did I mention anything about the way Anna was dressed?  

You don't need to tell me there are men who incline to forcing their intentions on women.  Some men are predatory opportunists who will simply attack a woman who is alone and vulnerable.  Others are encouraged by what they perceive as subtle invitations and who believe that a woman who is flirtatious but later resists simply prefers to be taken forcibly _("likes it rough")._ 

I am a man and as such I understand men a hell of a lot better than you do.   In spite of your arrogantly nonsensical feminist perception of reality things are the way they are --not the way you and other feminist daydreamers want them to be.  

All men are not rapists.  Some men are.  A smart woman knows how to avoid being victimized.  Then there are women, like you, who refuse to accept the fact that dressing and behaving provocatively is looking for trouble.  The bottom line in this issue is you feminists are your own worst enemy.


----------



## Sarah G

MikeK said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have no sons.  I have three daughters, each of whom was made aware of the kind of mistake we saw Anna make with Mr. Green, the "friendly" valet.  The simple fact which you refuse to accept is there are men who interpret the slightest flirtatiously playful behavior, especially on the part of a married woman, as deliberate enticement.
> 
> In the _Downton Abbey_ scenario we saw Bates watch Anna sending exactly that signal and he tried to warn her.  What is it you don't understand about something which every attractive, smart young woman should know?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is it that you don't understand about men who see women as complete objects that they can take at will?  It is not up to you to judge whether she is dressed properly, behaving in a way that might get her beaten and raped, whether she's too pretty, laughing too much, having too much fun or too anything.
> 
> It's a mindset like yours that has held women back and in fear and also has given these psychotic men an excuse for their violent urges.  Well, she was "asking" for it.
> 
> Sorry, you're wrong here.  Unbelievably wrong.  To the point of being creepy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Referring again to the Anna scenario; what do you suppose Bates was trying to warn Anna about when she was transacting frivolously (playing) with Green?   Do you think Bates was perceiving Anna as an object and trying to hold her back?
> 
> And where did I mention anything about the way Anna was dressed?
> 
> You don't need to tell me there are men who incline to forcing their intentions on women.  Some men are predatory opportunists who will simply attack a woman who is alone and vulnerable.  Others are encouraged by what they perceive as subtle invitations and who believe that a woman who is flirtatious but later resists simply prefers to be taken forcibly _("likes it rough")._
> 
> I am a man and as such I understand men a hell of a lot better than you do.   In spite of your arrogantly nonsensical feminist perception of reality things are the way they are --not the way you and other feminist daydreamers want them to be.
> 
> All men are not rapists.  Some men are.  A smart woman knows how to avoid being victimized.  Then there are women, like you, who refuse to accept the fact that dressing and behaving provocatively is looking for trouble.  The bottom line in this issue is you feminists are your own worst enemy.
Click to expand...


No, not all men are rapists but you want women to behave a certain way just in case they are.  I'm telling you for the last time, rape isn't about women behaving in a provocative way, it is about violence.  

You just aren't correct here.


----------



## Luddly Neddite

Downton Abbey buzz started 130 years before the series. In 1879, the comings and goings of the Earl and Countess of Carnarvon &#8211; residents of Highclere Castle, now the set of the hit TV drama &#8211; were regularly published in British newspapers.
Below is a scan of a newspaper article printed at the time.


----------



## Sarah G

HenryBHough said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seems very familiar.  Selfridge is Moray and the love of his life is Denise and they are both cast in The Paradise.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Almost as if the real Selfridge set out to live Zola's story.  But, of course, Zola's tale was roughly based on the life of the founder of a real French department store and some believe Selfridge based his merchandising concept (while still in America) upon that successful store.
Click to expand...


  [MENTION=31153]HenryBHough[/MENTION]



> *BBC show The Paradise axed as ITV's Mr. Selfridge triumphs in TV store wars *
> 
> The Paradise was the rival show to ITV's highly-rated Mr Selfridge but BBC bosses have decided to axe the prime-time period drama after just two series.
> 
> The show, which launched in September 2012, centred around the department store's charismatic owner, Moray and his compelling love triangle with characters Katherine and Denise.
> 
> Hopes were initially high for the programme, which starred Game Of Thrones actor, Emun Elliott and acclaimed star, Joanna Vanderham, but ratings slipped to just over five million for series two.
> 
> BBC show The Paradise axed as ITV's Mr. Selfridge triumphs in TV store wars | Mail Online



Mystery solved.   I remembered this exchange.  I'm going to miss Moray and Denise.


----------



## MikeK

The _The Paradise_ borrowed too much from the theme of _Mr. Selfridge_ to hold interest.  It seemed like a plastic knock-off of the leather coat hanging in a closet.  Okay for a rainy day but otherwise easy to ignore.


----------



## HenryBHough

MikeK said:


> The _The Paradise_ borrowed too much from the theme of _Mr. Selfridge_ to hold interest.  It seemed like a plastic knock-off of the leather coat hanging in a closet.  Okay for a rainy day but otherwise easy to ignore.



On the surface this is correct.

Yes, it does look like The Paradise borrowed from Selfridge but that isn't what happened.  Remember, the book from which The Paradise was adapted was written in France decades ago.  That BBC and ITV each started production on their respective series at very close to the same time was entirely coincidental.  Sadly so!  But there was no "knock off" intent - I'm sure each of the producers were mortified when they saw what the other had undertaken.

The series would have been about equally enjoyable had they been done perhaps five years apart but, even then, folks would accuse the latter with being a rip off the former.


----------



## MikeK

HenryBHough said:


> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> The _The Paradise_ borrowed too much from the theme of _Mr. Selfridge_ to hold interest.  It seemed like a plastic knock-off of the leather coat hanging in a closet.  Okay for a rainy day but otherwise easy to ignore.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On the surface this is correct.
> 
> Yes, it does look like The Paradise borrowed from Selfridge but that isn't what happened.  Remember, the book from which The Paradise was adapted was written in France decades ago.  That BBC and ITV each started production on their respective series at very close to the same time was entirely coincidental.  Sadly so!  But there was no "knock off" intent - I'm sure each of the producers were mortified when they saw what the other had undertaken.
> 
> The series would have been about equally enjoyable had they been done perhaps five years apart but, even then, folks would accuse the latter with being a rip off the former.
Click to expand...

Knowing that does make a difference.  

Thanks.


----------

