# College: Cost too much?



## zzzz (Aug 21, 2011)

Good article on the rising costs of going to college. Am I glad I have my degree!



> Back in 1989, Hoosier freshmen at public colleges paid an average of $1,685 a year in tuition and fees. Next year, they will pay four times that -- $6,922 -- a 311 percent increase.





> From 1989 to 2011, Purdue University's main campus in West Lafayette has raised tuition 395 percent; Indiana University in Bloomington, 370 percent; and Ball State, 356 percent.
> 
> In that same time, the Consumer Price Index has increased 81.9 percent, according to a Bureau of Labor Statistics calculator. If Purdue's tuition increase had matched that Consumer Price Index increase dollar for dollar, the 1989 tuition of $1,916 would be $3,487 -- as opposed to the $9,478 Purdue students will pay during the 2011-12 school year.
> 
> That's even more staggering when you consider Indiana's median family income rose just 33 percent during that time.




Colleges charge big tuition because they can | Journal and Courier | jconline.com


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## Toro (Aug 21, 2011)

This is an interesting topic.

I think the gap between what is needed to pay for a top private college and an in-state college is becoming too wide.  The cost of one top-tier private college I know of and a good in-state college is $200,000 over four years.  I am extremely skeptical that the extra $200k is worth it over the long-run.


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## Oddball (Aug 21, 2011)

I wonder where all the hand-wringers from the left are on this "price gouging" by Big Edumacation?


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## chanel (Aug 21, 2011)

We will be paying for two next year.  They have been offered no assistance because of our income.  That's ok.  We've saved since they were born.

What's not ok is the waste and corruption that goes on at these schools and the GD nickle and diming for extra fees, textbooks, health insurance, etc.  What's not ok is using tuition and taxpayer money to pay for foreign students to attend for free.  What's not ok is paying football coaches $2M a year. 

And what really gets my goat is FERPA.  If I am putting out $40K a year, I should have the right to monitor my investment.  If they want to treat students as independent adults, then use THEIR friggin income to calculate the bill.


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## editec (Aug 21, 2011)

_In part_ the cost of education rising has to do with the availability of loans to pay for college.

This incidently, in also why the cost of health care rose at a rate so much higher than inflation generally. 

Ironic, no?


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## Toro (Aug 21, 2011)

Mama, don't let your babies grow up to be lawyers.  Financially, it's not worth it unless you go to a top tier school and get hired by a big Wall Street firm.



> *y undertaking some straight-forward analysis of the factors that come into play I hope to spur future generations of potential law school attendees to think about the question rationally, as one of making an investment. If your law school education were a stock or a bond, offered in the marketplace, would you buy it? Should you buy it? Why or why not
> 
> My methodology is as follows. First, I identify the costs of attending law school. These are two: the opportunity cost of not entering the workforce immediately after graduation from college, and the out-of-pocket costs, primarily tuition, fees and books, inherent in attending law school. Based on these costs, I calculate the annuity-like return that must be achieved to recover the costs. This process is more complicated that it might seem, as it importantly requires isolation of the true benefits in terms of compensation offered by a law degree and the identification of an appropriate discount rate for converting such incremental compensation to net present value.  ...
> 
> ...


*

Mamas Don't Let Your Babies Grow Up To Be...Lawyers by Herwig Schlunk :: SSRN

I read somewhere that law school applications have been dropping.*


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## Quantum Windbag (Aug 21, 2011)

Toro said:


> This is an interesting topic.
> 
> I think the gap between what is needed to pay for a top private college and an in-state college is becoming too wide.  The cost of one top-tier private college I know of and a good in-state college is $200,000 over four years.  I am extremely skeptical that the extra $200k is worth it over the long-run.



It is not even close to being worth it.

One rule of thumb I recently came across was what a college pays its dean. If they pay a higher salary to "compete" with the business world they charge too much for tuition.


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## aplcr0331 (Aug 22, 2011)

It should be abundantly clear to any high school student the problems that come with using debt to finance college. How can anyone be suprised how debt works in this day and age? Any high school student should also be able to notice that not all colleges are priced the same. If they know this, they can figure out that not all jobs pay the same. If you want fincial independence your going to have to get a *degree that gives you a good job*, *from a college that costs you as little as possible*. It's a simple math problem that we should expect ANY college bound student to grasp.

And yet students STILL make poor choices. And that is alright, but they should be allowed to lay in the beds they made. Same as the real estate bust. Make a stupid deal, and you get to live with your mistakes. Even if you don't learn from them, you can serve as an example to others of what not to do.


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## chanel (Aug 22, 2011)

High school kids aren't that bright.  True story.


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## rightwinger (Aug 22, 2011)

aplcr0331 said:


> It should be abundantly clear to any high school student the problems that come with using debt to finance college. How can anyone be suprised how debt works in this day and age? Any high school student should also be able to notice that not all colleges are priced the same. If they know this, they can figure out that not all jobs pay the same. If you want fincial independence your going to have to get a *degree that gives you a good job*, *from a college that costs you as little as possible*. It's a simple math problem that we should expect ANY college bound student to grasp.
> 
> And yet students STILL make poor choices. And that is alright, but they should be allowed to lay in the beds they made. Same as the real estate bust. Make a stupid deal, and you get to live with your mistakes. Even if you don't learn from them, you can serve as an example to others of what not to do.



High School kids are not that smart. They do not look at cost/benefit analysis of what you pay at one school vs another or the employability/salary potential of one major vs another

They choose schools based on:
Where their friends are going
It is near the beach/ski resort/bars
How good the Football/Basketball team is
Nightlife
It has a name that will impress their friends

Too many parents give their kids too much lattitude in the school and major their kids select. If you are paying for it, you should have a say in where your money will be spent. You are looking at 18 year old kids...do not expect them to make rational decisions


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## chanel (Aug 22, 2011)

Well said rw. 

Community college for two years is probably the best route for most kids. We considered it, but decided against it for a number of reasons.

We have the money put aside. That was our #1 savings priority since the kids were born. But if they had to take on this debt themselves, I would not allow it.  

Kid #1 toyed with the idea of teaching for 15 mins. I told him I'd support anything he pursued, but NOT at a private school in DC. He changed his mind quickly.

Both of my boys now know exactly what they want to do and are at schools with the right programs. We can only cross our fingers that they find jobs afterwards.


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## mudwhistle (Aug 22, 2011)

Oddball said:


> I wonder where all the hand-wringers from the left are on this "price gouging" by Big Edumacation?



They figure is a necessary evil. 

A piece of paper is worth it's weight in Gold. Heh, heh

People will just throw job offers at anyone that has a Harvard Law Degree. 

Just ask Obama.


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## rightwinger (Aug 22, 2011)

chanel said:


> Well said rw.
> 
> Community college for two years is probably the best route for most kids. We considered it, but decided against it for a number of reasons.
> 
> ...



My son went to Community College for two years and it worked out great. Classes were smaller and if you screw up a class it costs $300 to retake it vs $3000 at a private university

He majored in Architecture and after two years transfered to Drexel ($35,000 a year). They accepted every one of his credits from Community College so it ended up costing $5000 for the first two years instead of $70,000. 

His Diploma will still read "Drexel University"

Problem is that kids and parents look at attending Community College as being a failure and not being able to get into a "real school"


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## aplcr0331 (Aug 22, 2011)

rightwinger said:


> chanel said:
> 
> 
> > Well said rw.
> ...



Me too. My degree still says "Washington State University". There's no asterisk stating "first two years at a community college".


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## Skull Pilot (Aug 22, 2011)

The reason college is so expensive is that the sheep have fallen for the ," Everyone needs a college degree" advertising scam.


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## kwc57 (Aug 22, 2011)

chanel said:


> We will be paying for two next year.  They have been offered no assistance because of our income.  That's ok.  We've saved since they were born.
> 
> What's not ok is the waste and corruption that goes on at these schools and the GD nickle and diming for extra fees, textbooks, health insurance, etc.  What's not ok is using tuition and taxpayer money to pay for foreign students to attend for free.  What's not ok is paying football coaches $2M a year.
> 
> And what really gets my goat is FERPA.  If I am putting out $40K a year, I should have the right to monitor my investment.  If they want to treat students as independent adults, then use THEIR friggin income to calculate the bill.



My son is sitting in his very first college class right now.  Boy, have things changed since I graduated in '79.  I went to a private college and my son is attending a land grant university.  Back in my day, we had a cafeteria where we ate every meal.  At his school, they have convenience stores, cafes, restaraunts, fast food joints, etc. that are all part of their meal plan they just swipe their ID for.  We lived in dorms (he does too) where the schools today have apartments and suites.  We walked to our classes.  They have a free bus system.  We had a couple of Barney Fife security guards.  They have a fully trained police force.  I could go on and on, but you are already living it.  The services provided in many of today's schools make them seem like a country club compared to what I experienced.  All of those amenities cost bucks.  Tuition isn't just about education anymore.


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## rightwinger (Aug 22, 2011)

Skull Pilot said:


> The reason college is so expensive is that the sheep have fallen for the ," Everyone needs a college degree" advertising scam.



Even so...It is not just colleges that are overpriced, it also applies to trade schools. To go to one of those schools and get a certificate in HVAC, welding, truck driving, plumbing costs as much as attending a major university

Kids who go to trade school and flunk out are still stuck with big bills


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## waltky (Oct 19, 2011)

Goin' in debt to go to college...

*Student loan debt hits record levels*
_Full-time undergrads borrowed an average of $4,963 last year, according to the College Board._


> Students and workers seeking retraining are borrowing extraordinary amounts of money through federal loan programs, potentially putting a huge burden on the backs of young people looking for jobs and trying to start careers.  The amount of student loans taken out last year crossed the $100 billion mark for the first time and total loans outstanding will exceed $1 trillion for the first time this year. Americans now owe more on student loans than on credit cards, reports the Federal Reserve Bank of New York.  Students are borrowing twice what they did a decade ago after adjusting for inflation, the College Board reports. Total outstanding debt has doubled in the past five years  a sharp contrast to consumers reducing what's owed on home loans and credit cards.
> 
> Taxpayers and other lenders have little risk of losing money on the loans, unlike mortgages made during the real estate bubble. Congress has given the lenders, the government included, broad collection powers, far greater than those of mortgage or credit card lenders. The debt can't be shed in bankruptcy.  The credit risk falls on young people who will start adult life deeper in debt, a burden that could place a drag on the economy in the future.  "Students who borrow too much end up delaying life-cycle events such as buying a car, buying a home, getting married (and) having children," says Mark Kantrowitz, publisher of FinAid.org.
> 
> ...


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## Katzndogz (Oct 19, 2011)

Would tuitions be that high without the salaries professors demand and their unions obtain?   If it wasn't necessary to have expensive state of the art equipment would that affect tuition.

The college kids want, they just don't want to pay and since slavery is illegal, we can't force the faculty or staff to work for less.

The big problem for these grads isn't so much that student loans are so high, it's that they can't find a job once they graduate.  There is nothing worse than graduating college with a worthless degree and can't find someone to pay you for what you should never have learned in the first place.


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## mudwhistle (Oct 19, 2011)

rightwinger said:


> chanel said:
> 
> 
> > Well said rw.
> ...



I started out at a California community college. I actually learned while I was there. 

Went to SDSU and learned very little. Spent a lot more.


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## psikeyhackr (Oct 19, 2011)

Skull Pilot said:


> The reason college is so expensive is that the sheep have fallen for the ," Everyone needs a college degree" advertising scam.



That's it but then we have all of these DUMMIES with college degrees.

So what has stopped us from creating a National Recommended Reading List so we can get knowledge without college?  Plenty of these people with degrees are producing lots of crappy books.

General Semantics from the 1930s has become Neuro Linguistic Programming.

Centigrade has become Celsius.

Playing games with words is not increasing knowledge.  But these bullsh# word games helps to confuse people and makes pseudo-intellectuals appear knowledgeable.  Now the cheap computers and the Internet make the production and distribution of words, be they important or bullsh#, extremely easy.  So if kids have to wade thru more BS because of technology is that a good thing?  But is it the fault of the technology?

So we need to short circuit the people trying to screw us with the technology.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dg96tefnEU]SF & von Neumann machine basics - YouTube[/ame]

psik


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## kwc57 (Oct 19, 2011)

Tipsycatlover said:


> Would tuitions be that high without the salaries professors demand and their unions obtain?   If it wasn't necessary to have expensive state of the art equipment would that affect tuition.
> 
> The college kids want, they just don't want to pay and since slavery is illegal, we can't force the faculty or staff to work for less.
> 
> The big problem for these grads isn't so much that student loans are so high, it's that they can't find a job once they graduate.  There is nothing worse than graduating college with a worthless degree and can't find someone to pay you for what you should never have learned in the first place.



Why are kids getting worthless degrees?  Where are their parents to counsel them?  My son has an engineering major that is only offered in two universities in the US.  There are only 250 students in his program at his school.  Corporations court these kids and have jobs waiting for them when they graduate.  Last year, just one corporation hired 50 graudates.  My neice is working on her phd in medieval literature.  I'm not sure what kind of employment opportunities she'll after 8 years of higher education.


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## Si modo (Oct 19, 2011)

chanel said:


> We will be paying for two next year.  They have been offered no assistance because of our income.  That's ok.  We've saved since they were born.
> 
> What's not ok is the waste and corruption that goes on at these schools and the GD nickle and diming for extra fees, textbooks, health insurance, etc.  What's not ok is using tuition and taxpayer money to pay for foreign students to attend for free.  What's not ok is paying football coaches $2M a year.
> 
> And what really gets my goat is FERPA.  If I am putting out $40K a year, I should have the right to monitor my investment.  If they want to treat students as independent adults, then use THEIR friggin income to calculate the bill.


From the faculty side, FERPA is golden.

With so many helicopter parents out there not allowing their young adults to actually grow the hell up and learn personal accountability, they call professors to rant and rave about them being so awful to their 'kid' by failing them on a test they deserved to fail.

THAT'S where FERPA is golden.  You politely say, "I understand your concern, but federal law prohibits me from continuing this discussion with you.  Have a nice day.  Good bye."

Never was my job to deal with helicopter parents.

From parents' side of the coin concerning investment, that is absolutely valid.


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## Wry Catcher (Oct 19, 2011)

Skull Pilot said:


> The reason college is so expensive is that the sheep have fallen for the ," Everyone needs a college degree" advertising scam.



That's true.  Not everyone needs a four year degree but everyone with the necessary ability needs to be able to read, comprehend, write (keyboard); compute and think.  High school diplomas do not even prepare many students to read; and many college graduates can't write a proper sentence.

Today 'college mills' are putting out graduates with diplomas like puppy mills put out puppies with 'papers'; the product may look good but it is generally flawed.  College mills promise employment, mostly this is little more than a marketing scheme.

Our entire theory of education needs to be tested and perfected; that shouldn't be too hard since we have decades of failure as a starting point.  If a boy or girl can't stay focused in class, is disinterested and not motivated the first effort ought to be to find out why.  IEP's focus on 'learing disabilites' rather than learning styles.  Some kids can't read the instructions on how to remove and repair a transmission but can watch someone do so one time and be able to replicate the process (I went to HS with such a kid, saved me lots of $$$ when I dropped my transmission in my first car, '51 Plymouth.  He replaced the clutch too).


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## Si modo (Oct 19, 2011)

With respect to tuition costs, academia created this all on their own by bowing to ideals of socialistic utopias.

It started about 20-25 years ago with pressure from the public that admissions were not fair (waaahwaaahwhaah).  That standardized tests weren't fair (life isn't fair and that's just a reality).  That colleges and universities are elite organizations.  Blablablablabla.

They never wanted to hear that admissions were a hell of a lot more complex than what they thought and no one performance or condition for admission automatically DQed an applicant.

Then there were many who bitched that a college education is a right not a privilege.

On and on and on.

Then, federal grants in education (from the Dept of Ed, mostly) became available to those universities who went out on a limb and lowered their acceptance standards to accept applicants where all indicators lead to poor performance at the college level - the great higher education experiment. 

OK, I can buy that.  Let's see how that goes.  Admissions skyrocketed and universities got sweet federal grant bank.

To handle the increased volume, universities had to build more - halls, residence halls (now the trend is to contract that out to apartment managers - another clusterfuck).  Who pays for that construction?  You guessed - tuition.

Then, in the meantime, the 'great higher education experiment' is never really allowed to finish.  Now, all those students who are part of the 'great experiment' are failing out.  Miserably failing out.  Because of the great experiment, those young adults just wasted one or two years of their life doing something the professionals (the university) let them believe they could do.

So, how to deal with this problem.  Of course, the Dept of Ed can't allow this failure to be obvious! So, a new problem is identified by the Dept of Ed - retention of freshmen and sophomores is the new problem (duh, given the previous experiment led to that).  So, now federal grants are offered in the "education field" (that's a racket in itself) to develop programs that address retention of lower-classmen.

And, the universities go after those federal bucks with a fervor.  Pretty and verbose proposals are written with new (really, recycled) education theories and programs and they get MORE federal grants.  All the while the universities know exactly what they are going to do - dumb down the education.  And, they did - at almost ALL universities there is serious grade deflation - from Harvard to state schools known for being a party school.

And, as long as they keep those retention rates up for the lower class-men, they get their grants renewed.  All the while, those original grants for admission of students who shouldn't be admitted keeps the flow of more and more students in.

Oh, and as the grants usually apply to retention of lower-classmen flunking out, dumb down the 100 and 200 level classes and keep the grant money flowing in.  THEN shock the young adults in their 300 and 400 level courses with REAL college-level work.  THEN they fail out.  Now the students have wasted even more of their lives.  (You guessed it, new grants for retention all four years.)

Now, the universities need even MORE buildings.  So, they build them.  Who is paying for them?  The students with tuition.

And, the results of this are that that bachelor degree gets these young adults much less than it did before.  That bachelors degree doesn't mean what it once did to employers because the supply of college educated candidates is much more than before AND the college degree is not as high quality as it once was.

University administrators have a joke among them - the number of education grants an institution has is directly proportional to the number of construction cranes they have.



Anyway, that is it in a simplified nutshell - why tuition is a mess.  The blame can be spread among so many - government, university administrations selling out educational and academic integrity for federal dollars (none of this would have happened if they had not sold out), and the complaining public who somehow thinks everybody NEEDS to be equal, everyone CAN do college (now, everyone really can, but thy pay for it when looking for a job because it means so little).


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## Oddball (Oct 19, 2011)

Where are the liberoidals howling about _*PRICE GOUGING!!*_ 

?????

Beuller?


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## waltky (Oct 19, 2011)

Spur the economy - forgive student loans...

*Educated Liberals Say Forgiveness of Student Loans Would Stimulate Economy*
_October 18, 2011  - A liberal activist group is circulating an online petition calling for forgiveness of student loan debt. That would do more to stimulate the economy than giving tax cuts to billionaires and big corporations, said MoveOn.org._


> "With the stroke of the President's pen, millions of Americans would suddenly have hundreds, or in some cases, thousands of extra dollars in their pockets each and every month to spend on ailing sectors of the economy," the petition says.  The way supporters see it, forgiving student loan debt would boost consumer spending, business would start hiring, jobs would be created, and "a new era of innovation, entrepreneurship, and prosperity will be ushered in for all."
> 
> Forgiveness of student loans is among the demands of the Occupy Wall Street protest movement, but the suggestion is not new. Two years ago, shortly after President Obama signed his economic stimulus package, a liberal activist proposed forgiveness of student debt instead, and he set up a website to spread the word.  The effort has at least one supporter in Congress:  Rep. Hansen Clarke (D-Mich.) has introduced a resolution seeking student loan forgiveness as a means of economic stimulus.
> 
> ...


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## kwc57 (Oct 19, 2011)

waltky said:


> Spur the economy - forgive student loans...
> 
> *Educated Liberals Say Forgiveness of Student Loans Would Stimulate Economy*
> _October 18, 2011  - A liberal activist group is circulating an online petition calling for forgiveness of student loan debt. That would do more to stimulate the economy than giving tax cuts to billionaires and big corporations, said MoveOn.org._
> ...



I'm already way past school.  I'm holding out for the great mortgage, credit card and car loan giveaway.....I mean, debt forgiveness.


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## Si modo (Oct 20, 2011)

The Department of Education ruins education.  Period.


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## Katzndogz (Oct 20, 2011)

College tuition has risen right along with professor's salaries.  The faculty wants more money, guess what.  It has to come from someplace.


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## Katzndogz (Oct 20, 2011)

Maybe we should have colleges and universities like they do in China.  Completely free.  There are no fluffy courses.  No social study programs, just hard core education.  And, you do not get to fail.  Failure is not an option.  There is no partying, no drinking, no sex, no drugs.   Fun seekers and failures have a different employment for them.   After all, you don't think anyone really applies for those factory jobs, do you?


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## Si modo (Oct 20, 2011)

Tipsycatlover said:


> Maybe we should have colleges and universities like they do in China.  Completely free.  There are no fluffy courses.  No social study programs, just hard core education.  And, you do not get to fail.  Failure is not an option.  There is no partying, no drinking, no sex, no drugs.   Fun seekers and failures have a different employment for them.   After all, you don't think anyone really applies for those factory jobs, do you?


And, admissions?  Does everyone go?


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## Si modo (Oct 20, 2011)

Tipsycatlover said:


> College tuition has risen right along with professor's salaries.  The faculty wants more money, guess what.  It has to come from someplace.


  Starting salaries for tenure track faculty is very, very piss-poor.

For example, for a chemistry professor starting his/her career as a tenure-track prof, the average salary is $54K.  That same chemist could get a job in the private sector for double that.  And, at the federal government for at least 60% more than academia.

And, the starting salaries of chemistry professors is much, much higher than that for a professor teaching some liberal art.

No, the professors' salaries are not a significant factor.


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## Dont Taz Me Bro (Oct 20, 2011)

Why aren't the OWS folks out there protesting Big Education?


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## chanel (Oct 20, 2011)

I made that point a while ago. I do have sympathy with college grads who have been lied to and scammed by the idea that a college grad will make a million dollars more than a HS grad. But they are mad at the wrong institutions.


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## PoliticalChic (Oct 20, 2011)

editec said:


> _In part_ the cost of education rising has to do with the availability of loans to pay for college.
> 
> This incidently, in also why the cost of health care rose at a rate so much higher than inflation generally.
> 
> Ironic, no?



Great post!

There should be absolutely no college loans via any government agency.

As it stands, Liberal programs take eveyone's tax money and launder it through Liberal institutions of higher something or other and funnel it back to....guess what....Liberal politicians!

Harvard, Stanford and Columbia gave almost two million dollars to ....guess who in '08.


And old pols never die....they become professors.

Scam.


At least one person on campus has done OK as the economy has declined: public university presidents' salaries climbed 7.6% last year.
Fifteen presidents of public research universities took home at least $700,000 in 2007-2008, up from eight in last year's survey, and nearly one-third now earn over $500,000, according to the annual Chronicle of Higher Education survey out Monday.
College presidents' salaries increase: One-third earn over $500K - USATODAY.com


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## Katzndogz (Oct 20, 2011)

Si modo said:


> Tipsycatlover said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe we should have colleges and universities like they do in China.  Completely free.  There are no fluffy courses.  No social study programs, just hard core education.  And, you do not get to fail.  Failure is not an option.  There is no partying, no drinking, no sex, no drugs.   Fun seekers and failures have a different employment for them.   After all, you don't think anyone really applies for those factory jobs, do you?
> ...



They have to qualify and have good grades, but no Chinese University charges a Chinese national anything.  My art teacher and his wife are from China.  She's a surgeon.  It did not cost her a cent.  I've heard many a recount from them how terrified they were that someone would find out that they had a relationship at all.  One kiss can get a student kicked out and sent to the factories or the farms.  There is zero tolerance for foolishness.


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## psikeyhackr (Oct 30, 2011)

Education can be cheap, credentials cost a lot.

I have these two books:

*Glencoe Accounting: First Year Course*, Student Edition 4th Edition

Glencoe Accounting: First Year Course, Student Edition 4th Edition by McGraw-Hill Staff | 002815004X | 9780028150048 | Chegg.com

*The Accounting Game : Basic Accounting Fresh from the Lemonade Stand*

The Accounting Game : Basic Accounting Fresh from the Lemonade Stand // Discounted Books from Excel Tip .com

The first book says it is the first year of accounting and it costs $75 to $128 or around 5 or 9 times as much as the second.  It is 800 pages, has a hard cover and weighs at least 5 times as much as the second book which is only 180 pages.

But there is what is called the Basic Accounting Equation which comes in two slightly different forms.

Assets - Liabilities = Net Worth

Assets = Liabilities + Owner's Equity

They are the same equation with a little algebraic and semantic differences.  The first book does not have that equation until page 48.  The second book has it on page 8.

So in a way those books demonstrate the problem with our so called educational system.  Students have to spend a lot of time and money to get watered down information and they pay for expensive books and expensive campuses, but what is supposed to matter is what ends up between their ears.  Double-entry accounting is SEVEN HUNDRED YEARS OLD!!!  Making a big deal out of it is ridiculous.  This pretense that it is difficult to understand is a bunch of bullsh#!  But how can accountants charge a lot of money and pay off their student loans if they don't pretend it is difficult?  So these costs have to be passed on as long as students are dumb enough to pay them.

And that is not a worthless Liberal Arts degree.

So if lots of people get that second book and don't hire accountants...Oops!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I just checked something else in those two books, depreciation.  The Glencoe books does not mention depreciation until page 624.  The Accounting Game has it on page 114.  So the more expensive book is not designed to help the student learn a lot quickly.  It is designed to help schools and book publishers make a lot of money while wasting student's time dribbling out watered down information.

psik


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## Unkotare (Oct 30, 2011)

Tipsycatlover said:


> Maybe we should have colleges and universities like they do in China.  Completely free.  There are no fluffy courses.  No social study programs, just hard core education.  And, you do not get to fail.  Failure is not an option.  There is no partying, no drinking, no sex, no drugs.   Fun seekers and failures have a different employment for them.   After all, you don't think anyone really applies for those factory jobs, do you?



Universities in China are not free, there are liberal arts programs, you can fail, the kids drink, have sex, and to a certain extent do drugs. And yes, people do apply for factory jobs.


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## Unkotare (Oct 30, 2011)

Tipsycatlover said:


> They have to qualify and have good grades, but no Chinese University charges a Chinese national anything.  .





Wrong. And if you think students don't 'kiss' and all that sort of thing you are crazy.


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## mskafka (Oct 30, 2011)

I would love to go back to college.  But I make too much money to qualify for grants, and I don't want to clean out my retirement to do it.  

I also have health insurance with my job.  I wonder how easy it would be for someone with cardiac arrhythmias, hypertension, and probable rheumatoid arthritis (awaiting the test results with glee   genetics are cruel) to get private health insurance?!?

Yah, cry me a river, I know.  Life's a big turd sandwich, sometimes.  

Going back to college probably isn't in the cards.


----------



## chanel (Oct 31, 2011)

What do you guys think of this idea?



> I think we should return to the days when student loans were dischargeable in bankruptcy, starting five years after graduation. This will allow graduates who are unable to pay to get out from under what is otherwise a potential lifetime of debt-slavery. If you buy a house to flip, and wind up losing your shirt, we let you go bankrupt, take a credit-rating hit, and scrub the debt away. Why should graduates be forbidden from doing the same? The five-year delay means that you can&#8217;t use immediate post-graduation poverty as an excuse (as some medical students used to do), but still provides an out.
> 
> But the real incentive-alignment part is this:* Put the institutions who issued the degrees on the hook for the money they received. *Making them eat the entire loan balance would probably bankrupt a lot of colleges (though that should tell us something about the problem right there), but sticking them with even a small fraction -- say, 10% or 15% -- would be enough to inspire a much greater degree of concern for how much debt students take on while in school, and for how likely they are to find gainful employment after graduation.
> 
> Read more: Government inflated the college loan bubble -- but Obama isn&rsquo;t fixing it - NYPOST.com


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## editec (Oct 31, 2011)

Here's idea whose time will never come for those of us who want *market forces* driving change?

It is an example of that invisible hand of the market liberated by REAL market forces.

Colleges provide education to be _repaid by graduates based on their annual incomes FOR LIFE._


_IF_ a college degree is worth the money it costs, then everyone's a winner.

If it turns out that people with the degree don't have employability value, then those colleges and their graduates are shit out of luck.

Now I promise you that this plan would attract a whole lot of people who have no family fortunes backing them.  

How many of the manor born would be willing to play?

My guess is_ not many._


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## Skull Pilot (Oct 31, 2011)

Si modo said:


> Tipsycatlover said:
> 
> 
> > College tuition has risen right along with professor's salaries.  The faculty wants more money, guess what.  It has to come from someplace.
> ...



Would you really want a guy so fucking stupid as to take a shit paying job instead of making some real money to be the one teaching your kids?

Those that can't do teach.


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## Dr.Traveler (Oct 31, 2011)

Tipsycatlover said:


> College tuition has risen right along with professor's salaries.  The faculty wants more money, guess what.  It has to come from someplace.



Actually, any Professor making more than $100,000.00 a year isn't costing the students a dime.  The unwritten rule at the T1 Research institutions right now is that a professor isn't tenured unless they bring in more grant money (Not tuition money) than the university pays them in salary.

Now, if you want to send your child to a school where the focus for the tenure process is on education instead of research, then you are looking at professors that are paid out of tuition money.  However, the professors at those schools aren't making much at all.

Rising tuition costs don't really have much to do with the actual professors.

In addition, new constructions projects on campus are almost always paid for by endowments from alumni.  If you don't have wealthy alumni willing to give, you won't be seeing new buildings.  Rising tuition isn't related to new construction.

I saw someone in this thread complain about all the starbucks and restaurants on campus.  The truth is that those companies are helping keep tuition down by paying rent to the campus for prime locations.

Rising tuition has more to do with the need for up to date labs, computer facilities, and rising health care and retirement costs, which are called unfunded liabilities at the state institutions.  They also have something to do with the rising cost of administration, which is related to the need a school has to hire more and more administrators to comply with more and more hoops being forced on them by the Feds.

As far as kids graduating with loans they can't pay off...that's poor parenting and advising right there.  If you graduate with a general studies degree, then you shouldn't be surprised if you can't find a job.


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## Dr.Traveler (Oct 31, 2011)

Si modo said:


> Tipsycatlover said:
> 
> 
> > College tuition has risen right along with professor's salaries.  The faculty wants more money, guess what.  It has to come from someplace.
> ...



Yep.  I'm in mathematics, and my first job offer was for the Government.  It paid as a starting salary 1.5 times what I make now after 5 years on the job.  I could go take a few actuarial exams and double up my salary in the space of about 3 to 6 months.

If you find a professor making a LOT of money, it means that they're raking in the grant money, which means that their salary is actually not costing the students a dime.  Professor's salaries aren't the issue.


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## del (Oct 31, 2011)

Dr.Traveler said:


> Tipsycatlover said:
> 
> 
> > College tuition has risen right along with professor's salaries.  The faculty wants more money, guess what.  It has to come from someplace.
> ...



i very much doubt that any professor making more that 100k interacts with any students except in line at starbucks.


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## Ropey (Oct 31, 2011)

In the established higher centers of learning the professors usually come in to welcome the students and share a bit of themselves early on as well as informing of their correspondent results with his/her work.  Then usually the third year students take over helping the professors assistants (pre-PHD). 

Usually the study group sessions have a robust following in order to facilitate the learning and often there are credit additions (for honors/grants, etc) to running study sessions with the post-graduates in their professorial studies for challenge.

These professors are far too busy working on proofs, and writing/publishing their results in this established pattern instilled within most of the higher centers of learning.  Publish or Perish.


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## Dr.Traveler (Oct 31, 2011)

del said:


> Dr.Traveler said:
> 
> 
> > Tipsycatlover said:
> ...



Most of those guys are paying for the salaries of the Teaching Assistants that the students are interacting with via their grant money, so even then, they're saving money.

And for the most part, if you're on a campus you're teaching at least 1 class, even if you have that kind of grant power.  The administrators tend to want you in front of a classroom at least once in a while.

Most of the professors I know in that range teach about 2 graduate classes a semester, and occasionally an undergraduate.


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## chanel (Oct 31, 2011)

I can't find the article, but the Star Ledger did an expose a few years ago on salaries at Rutgers.  Several dozen were making six figures - and not one professor.  It's not the teachers folks.  It's the bullshit department heads who are in charge of such nonsense as "Student Life" which of course is a totally different department than "Student Services" or "Residential Services" etc... 

Oh and the football team loses several mil a year and they are still soliciting donations for a $100 million stadium.


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## Dr.Traveler (Oct 31, 2011)

chanel said:


> I can't find the article, but the Star Ledger did an expose a few years ago on salaries at Rutgers.  Several dozen were making six figures - and not one professor.  It's not the teachers folks.  It's the bullshit department heads who are in charge of such nonsense as "Student Life" which of course is a totally different department than "Student Services" or "Residential Services" etc...
> 
> Oh and the football team loses several mil a year and they are still soliciting donations for a $100 million stadium.



Yeah, administration is paid pretty well.  I'm not a fan of it, but there are few things that help explain how that happened:

1.  Most Universities and Colleges are bringing in an enormous amount of cash from their athletics.  I know at my school we're making back more from the athletic department than we pay in via salaries and scholarships.  Colleges can afford to pay coaches a 6 or 7 figure salary because they'll make much more than that from the teams over the course of the year.
Aside:  Welcome to the newest form of slavery.

2.  It's actually hard to hire good administrators.  The Federal funding comes with some serious restrictions, requirements, and reporting deadlines.  Many of the overpaid administrators folks complain about were hired for the express interest of helping the school hold on to Federal and State funds.  Its a catch-22, pay an enormous amount of money for an administrator, or risk losing funding that could close your school.
Aside:  If you're a fan of arguing that regulation=raised costs, this is a pretty wonderful example.


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## michaelkervins (Nov 22, 2011)

Now a days colleges cost very high fees for education. If a man is poor he can't afford money for getting higher education. Its very bad that our college fees are ten times higher than our schooling fees. There are lots of students who can't get education because of fees dissimilarity.


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## chanel (Nov 22, 2011)

Dr.Traveler said:


> chanel said:
> 
> 
> > I can't find the article, but the Star Ledger did an expose a few years ago on salaries at Rutgers.  Several dozen were making six figures - and not one professor.  It's not the teachers folks.  It's the bullshit department heads who are in charge of such nonsense as "Student Life" which of course is a totally different department than "Student Services" or "Residential Services" etc...
> ...



I'll do more research later, but I believe that is a wive's tale. Certainly big schools like Notre Dame and Penn State have "branded" themselves and make a lot of money for the school. But I believe they are the exceptoion, not the rule. And I'm not concerned about coaches making "six figure Rutgers coaches make 7.


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## PoliticalChic (Nov 22, 2011)

michaelkervins said:


> Now a days colleges cost very high fees for education. If a man is poor he can't afford money for getting higher education. Its very bad that our college fees are ten times higher than our schooling fees. There are lots of students who can't get education because of fees dissimilarity.



Do you actually believe that one cannot be educated sans college???

"Some of today's most successful people don't have a college degree. But what they lack in academic credentials, they make up for in tenacity, brains, guts and strong business sense."
Success without a college degree - CNN.com

(the article goes on to list a number of folks who have done quite well....)


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## Dr.Traveler (Nov 22, 2011)

chanel said:


> I'll do more research later, but I believe that is a wive's tale. Certainly big schools like Notre Dame and Penn State have "branded" themselves and make a lot of money for the school. But I believe they are the exceptoion, not the rule. And I'm not concerned about coaches making "six figure Rutgers coaches make 7.



I'd believed that too, but now I'm actually in academia I know that even at a school like mine where the athletic program isn't hugely popular the athletic programs are still fairly profitable.  It'd be hard to track down general numbers though, as the schools are opaque on that issue intentionally and not all of the profits come from season tickets or merchandising.  Some of the money comes from scheduling, and that's really hard to nail down figures for.

I know that in Louisiana we've faced massive budget cuts in higher ed, but I've yet to hear of any serious cuts to athletics.  When pressed for why that's the case, it's almost always because the athletic program is bringing in more money than it takes out of the budget.


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## Katzndogz (Nov 22, 2011)

Si modo said:


> Tipsycatlover said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe we should have colleges and universities like they do in China.  Completely free.  There are no fluffy courses.  No social study programs, just hard core education.  And, you do not get to fail.  Failure is not an option.  There is no partying, no drinking, no sex, no drugs.   Fun seekers and failures have a different employment for them.   After all, you don't think anyone really applies for those factory jobs, do you?
> ...



Yes.  Everyone who wants to go, goes!

The entire state of education there is different.   Parents do not give their own children the option of failing.  Bad grades are always the child's fault.   There's a book about the Chinese Tiger Moms and how they raise their children.

Once in college, the government pays, for everything.  They won't hand that value away for nothing.   A student caught drunk, or having sex, or partying, has disrespected the gift.  They are transferred to one of the factories.  They live in dormitories, essentially as slaves.   They make all the cheap stuff you buy at Wal Mart.

It's a good system.


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## Unkotare (Nov 22, 2011)

Katzndogz said:


> Si modo said:
> 
> 
> > Tipsycatlover said:
> ...




It's an entertaining story, but it is not reality.


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## Unkotare (Nov 22, 2011)

Unkotare said:


> Tipsycatlover said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe we should have colleges and universities like they do in China.  Completely free.  There are no fluffy courses.  No social study programs, just hard core education.  And, you do not get to fail.  Failure is not an option.  There is no partying, no drinking, no sex, no drugs.   Fun seekers and failures have a different employment for them.   After all, you don't think anyone really applies for those factory jobs, do you?
> ...





...................................................


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## chanel (Nov 23, 2011)

Dr.Traveler said:


> chanel said:
> 
> 
> > I'll do more research later, but I believe that is a wive's tale. Certainly big schools like Notre Dame and Penn State have "branded" themselves and make a lot of money for the school. But I believe they are the exceptoion, not the rule. And I'm not concerned about coaches making "six figure Rutgers coaches make 7.
> ...



Check this out.  I knew I had read this some where.



> Big-time college sports  particularly big-time college football  is now an arms race in a world with no nonproliferation treaty. *As confirmed by a series of reports from the National Collegiate Athletic Association, most college athletic programs lose money, and almost none of them makes money consistently*. No wonder, then, that Rutgers President Richard McCormick acknowledges the athletic program will probably never make money.



Rutgers football: Big costs, few benefits | NJ.com


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## chanel (Nov 27, 2011)

Great editorial on the rising costs of the "diversity bureaucracy" in our universities.



> Do not think that the exploding diversity bureaucracy is confined to public universities. In 2005, Harvard created a new Senior Vice Provost for Diversity and Faculty Development, responsible for *$50 million in diversity funding,* and six new diversity deanships. Whereas Harvards previous diversity bureaucrats collected mere diversity data about faculty hiring and promotions, the new SVP for D and FD would be collecting diversity metrics. Yale already has 14 Title IX coordinators (not enough to stave off a specious Title IX investigation by the Office of Civil Rights in the federal Education Department), but it nevertheless recently put a Deputy Provost in charge of assessing the campus climate with respect to gender and overseeing the 14 Title IX coordinators. *All these new bureaucrats in campuses across the country  nearly 72,000 non-teaching positions added from 2006 to 2009  cost $3.6 billion, estimated Harvey Silverglate in Minding the Campus earlier this year.*
> 
> Just where do the OWS-ish student protesters think that their tuition money is going? In the vast majority of colleges and universities, there are no greedy shareholders sucking their profits from the livelihoods of workers or other community stakeholders. *Rather, rising tuitions funnel straight into the preposterously unnecessary diversity bureaucracy and the rest of the burgeoning student-services infrastructure, as well as into the salaries of professors who teach one course a semester, the arms race of ever more sybaritic dorms and social centers, and the absolute monarchies of the football and basketball programs*. It is particularly amusing to see New York Universitys Andrew Ross spearheading a campaign against the student-loan industry; we may safely assume that Rosss princely salary as Professor of Social and Cultural Analysis (achieved when NYU outbid Princeton for his services) was impervious to what should have been Rosss reputation-destroying unwitting publication of a hoax parody of cultural-studies gibberish in his journal, Social Text, in 1996.
> 
> If students think that they are paying too much for college  and either they or taxpayers most surely are  they should take up the matter with their college president and her retinue of deans, provosts, and vice chancellors, not to mention with the federal government, whose easy loans allow colleges to jack up their tuition even further. The problem lies not with the lenders but with the institutions whose undisciplined appetite for bureaucratic growth and for hiring trendy academic superstars, no matter the speciousness of their scholarship, makes such loans necessary.



Pepper-Spraying Taxpayers - National Review Online


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## Toro (Nov 27, 2011)

It doesn't pay to go to law school.

TaxProf Blog: Schlunk: Is a Law Degree a Good Investment Today?


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## Katzndogz (Nov 27, 2011)

Toro said:


> It doesn't pay to go to law school.
> 
> TaxProf Blog: Schlunk: Is a Law Degree a Good Investment Today?



Someone who gets out of law school with the idea that they will get a good job making good money is bound to be disappointed.

What a law degree does (and I am one that knows, intimately, what is required) is give someone a direction to follow.  They will have to work much HARDER than they did while in law school.   Be prepared to work 18 hour days, give up weekends, and holidays.  A friend of mine spent all day Thanksgiving day preparing for a trial.   For every billable hour, attorneys are expected to put in three more non billable hours.   Then, the new attorney is expected to invest his miniscule salary in continuing education.  Week end wordshops, seminars, courses.   If the attorney goes to work for a firm, best to negotiate the firm to pick up part of these costs at the outset.   Be prepared to waste time running around from court house to court house too.  It's not like television where there is that one explosive appearance then back to the office to grab-ass with the secretaries.

Failure to do these things means to lock yourself into being the lowest paid of attorneys watching those who apply themselves leapfrog over you.

Someone who does want to be successful, wildly so, commanding the highest fees will not stop at a law degree at all.  They will FURTHER invest.  Give up Starbucks and bring sack lunches while they work through lunchtimes.  They will go back to school to get a technical degree.  One attorney I know got an engineering degree after law school, then went back to get an electrical engineering degree.  ON TOP of all the work and education associated with just working as a lawyer.   After going to a middling law school, he is quite, quite wealthy.  Attorneys who specialize in medical malpractice have no problem whatsoever going to med school AFTER law school.

Thinking that graduating law school will open doors is going to doom you to being a poor lawyer endlessly scratching out a living in competition with all the other poor and lazy lawyers.


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## Katzndogz (Nov 27, 2011)

Unkotare said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> > Si modo said:
> ...



It is according to the many Chinese I know.


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## psikeyhackr (Nov 27, 2011)

Katzndogz said:


> Yes.  Everyone who wants to go, goes!
> 
> The entire state of education there is different.   Parents do not give their own children the option of failing.  Bad grades are always the child's fault.   There's a book about the Chinese Tiger Moms and how they raise their children.
> 
> ...



Yeah, great system.

Unfinished Homework Leads 3 Chinese Schoolgirls to Suicide  chinaSMACK  <-  LINK

We live in a world with computers and robots and we will not acknowledge the extent to which planned obsolescence has made the economy the way it is.  Manufacturing garbage that does not last does create jobs.  But what is the point.  Wouldn't a 3-day work week with longer lasting products make more sense?

We are all supposed to be brainwashed into STUPID Competition.  Get straight A's in worthless courses to make jobs for educators teaching them?  Wouldn't a national reading list make for EFFICIENT EDUCATION?  But teachers might not like it.  

psik


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## editec (Nov 27, 2011)

chanel said:


> High school kids aren't that bright. True story.


 
Now normally, that is to say in a place where most people are presumably not imbeciles, I might be included to make a quip about _"your grasp of the obvious",_ Chanel.

But in _THIS_ PLACE? 

A place where people, time after time, prove to us that they are somewhat _REALITY CHALLENGED_?

I suppose pointing out the drop-dead obvious is the responsibility of those (like you) who ARE somewhat familiar with the actual world and how people in it really ARE..

So good post, and_ thanks_ for my LOL moment of the morning.


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## Unkotare (Nov 27, 2011)

Katzndogz said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Katzndogz said:
> ...




It is not. I taught at a university in China for two years. It is not free (it was at one time but not for a long while now) although there are some special programs for particularly poor students from rural areas, and young people there do what young people do everywhere (drinking, sex, the works). Dormitories and other facilities have (as you might imagine) improved greatly as tuition has increased. Students are not 'punished' by sending them to work in factories. Sending a student to go work in a factory would be stupid for reasons that should be obvious. The Cultural Revolution has been over for some time now.


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## Unkotare (Nov 27, 2011)

psikeyhackr said:


> Wouldn't a 3-day work week with longer lasting products make more sense?
> 
> We are all supposed to be brainwashed into STUPID Competition.  Get straight A's in worthless courses to make jobs for educators teaching them?





Words cannot express what an empty-headed dope you are.


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## psikeyhackr (Nov 27, 2011)

Unkotare said:


> psikeyhackr said:
> 
> 
> > Wouldn't a 3-day work week with longer lasting products make more sense?
> ...



You should stop trying to use words.  You advertise your lack of imagination.

Our entire economics profession can fail to talk about how much is lost on the depreciation of automobiles every year.  The Laws of Physics would make that happen even without planned obsolescence.  So how can the nation that put men on the Moon be this absurd?

What kind of educational system is this?  Can't make 700 year old double-entry accounting mandatory in the schools.    Educators don't even suggest the idea.

psik


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## Unkotare (Nov 27, 2011)

Here are some more words for you: YOU ARE A FUCKING MORON.

You're just another one of these idiots who has convinced himself that any cockeyed notion that wanders into your empty skull is absolutely brilliant and must be shared with the world no matter how stupid, impractical, or dangerously irresponsible it might be. Here's a newsflash from the world OUTSIDE your little pea brain: Your ideas are NOT brilliant, will never happen, and are best kept to yourself.


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## psikeyhackr (Nov 27, 2011)

Unkotare said:


> Here are some more words for you: YOU ARE A FUCKING MORON.
> 
> You're just another one of these idiots who has convinced himself that any cockeyed notion that wanders into your empty skull is absolutely brilliant and must be shared with the world no matter how stupid, impractical, or dangerously irresponsible it might be. Here's a newsflash from the world OUTSIDE your little pea brain: Your ideas are NOT brilliant, will never happen, and are best kept to yourself.



There you go, messing with those words again.

So are you telling us that automobiles do not depreciate?

Or are you telling us that the economics profession has been reporting that depreciation every year?

Anyone should have no trouble checking those.  Or will calling me a moron again help you feel better?  

psik


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## Unkotare (Nov 27, 2011)

You gonna tell us about the sci-fi books you read in Jr High again?



Save it for your shrink, moron.


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## psikeyhackr (Nov 27, 2011)

I didn't attend a Jr. High.



> Politicians should read Science Fiction, not Westerns and Detective stories.
> -Arthur C. Clarke


Politicians should read Science Fiction, not Westerns and Detective stories. -Arthur C. Clarke

Cost of Living by Sheckley Robert
"Cost of Living" by Sheckley Robert Free Download. The book is added by Weavrmom (California) Read online books at OnRead.com.

Subversive  by Reynolds Mack
"Subversive" by Reynolds Mack Free Download. The book is added by K. Havard (Texas) Read online books at OnRead.com.

And what have you posted that would be interesting to anybody?

psik


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## Unkotare (Nov 27, 2011)

I knew it.  


Stick to talking with the voices in your head. They are the only ones who give a shit about your stupid ideas.


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## NoNukes (Nov 27, 2011)

zzzz said:


> Good article on the rising costs of going to college. Am I glad I have my degree!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



At the present time here in Ireland, college costs 1,500 euros a year in administration fees. No tuition.


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## Unkotare (Nov 27, 2011)

NoNukes said:


> zzzz said:
> 
> 
> > Good article on the rising costs of going to college. Am I glad I have my degree!
> ...




And taxpayers pick up the rest (probably at no bargain).


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## psikeyhackr (Nov 27, 2011)

Unkotare said:


> I knew it.
> 
> Stick to talking with the voices in your head. They are the only ones who give a shit about your stupid ideas.



It's nice to know that you believe you speak for EVERYONE!  Have you told them?  

psik


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## NoNukes (Nov 28, 2011)

Unkotare said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> > zzzz said:
> ...



Education benefits all of society.


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## Unkotare (Nov 28, 2011)

psikeyhackr said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > I knew it.
> ...




Ok, start making a list, psycho. It'll be fun to see how long it takes for your demented little ego to implode.


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## Unkotare (Nov 28, 2011)

NoNukes said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > NoNukes said:
> ...




Gotta be more specific than that.


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## Katzndogz (Nov 28, 2011)

Education might benefit all of society.  That's not the same thing as college or even school at all being a benefit.


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## Jackson (Nov 28, 2011)

Perhaps college costs wouldn't be so high if universities didn't have so many REMEDIAL classes.


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## NoNukes (Nov 28, 2011)

Unkotare said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



Only to people who are not too sharp.


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## Unkotare (Nov 28, 2011)

NoNukes said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > NoNukes said:
> ...



Instead of wasting your energy dodging, just say you have no point and leave it at that.


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## NoNukes (Nov 28, 2011)

Unkotare said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



I made a clear point to your poor one.


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## Unkotare (Nov 28, 2011)

NoNukes said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > NoNukes said:
> ...




Actually make a point or run along. You're boring.


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## NoNukes (Nov 28, 2011)

Unkotare said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



You are pathetic, there is a good point.


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## Unkotare (Nov 28, 2011)

NoNukes said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > NoNukes said:
> ...




The kiddy table is over there, run along.


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## NoNukes (Nov 28, 2011)

Unkotare said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



I accept your capitulation.


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## Unkotare (Nov 28, 2011)

NoNukes said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > NoNukes said:
> ...





I should have said the dim-witted kiddy table is over there. Go sit down and shut the fuck up until you have something to say.


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## psikeyhackr (Nov 28, 2011)

Unkotare said:


> NoNukes said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



LOL  Everybody is stupid but Unkotare.

psik


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## Unkotare (Nov 28, 2011)

psikeyhackr said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > NoNukes said:
> ...




Nope, you're special.


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## Luddly Neddite (Nov 28, 2011)

I recently saw a documentary about India. I didn't see all of it but what I did see showed the "state" paying for all education. They taught several languages as well as computer sciences and other forward thinking subject as part of a curriculum geared toward making their grads ready to compete on the world stage. 

Meanwhile, the US whines "English only" and "socialism" and we fall further and further behind. 

We are no longer Number One in the world and never will be again.


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## Unkotare (Nov 28, 2011)

luddly.neddite said:


> I recently saw a documentary about India. I didn't see all of it but what I did see showed the "state" paying for all education. They taught several languages as well as computer sciences and other forward thinking subject as part of a curriculum geared toward making their grads ready to compete on the world stage.
> 
> Meanwhile, the US whines "English only" and "socialism" and we fall further and further behind.
> 
> We are no longer Number One in the world and never will be again.





When does your boat to India depart? Don't be late.


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## Dr.Traveler (Nov 29, 2011)

chanel said:


> Dr.Traveler said:
> 
> 
> > chanel said:
> ...



I'll check that out.  It may be my school is an exception, as one of the truly big shocks I had coming on to campus was to learn that the athletic program as a whole was profitable enough to help support the University.... and our school isn't some Big Ten player.  Thanks!


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## chanel (Nov 29, 2011)

And of course, Rutgers is particularly bad.  It's my alma mater.  I used to contribute to the Alumni Assn.  until I read a series of reports on the football program by the Star Ledger.  It made my blood boil.  Schiano is the highest paid public employee in the State of NJ - $2 mil.  The girls' basketball coach makes close to a million.

This is from Bloomberg:



> Rutgers University forgave $100,000 of the football coach&#8217;s interest-free home loan last year. The women&#8217;s basketball coach got monthly golf and car allowances. Both collected bonuses without winning a championship.
> 
> While Schiano&#8217;s compensation isn&#8217;t out of line among football coaches, it compares with an average of $142,000 for full professors, $96,000 for associate professors and $49,000 for nontenure-track instructors, according to the professors union.
> 
> ...



Rutgers Athletics Grow at Expense of Academics Unlike at Texas - Bloomberg


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## ggiindia (Dec 6, 2011)

Effectively the cost unnatural according to position of that. You can post here some others study referrals.


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## logansmith (Dec 28, 2011)

This is right that the education prize in college is too high then school .The cost of one top-tier private college  is  $200,000 over four years. I am extremely skeptical that the extra $200k is worth it over the long-run and it is the matter of getting worry about to provide education in the society to our child in future.


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## Unkotare (Dec 28, 2011)

And...you are talking about college in what country?


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## PrometheusBound (Jan 3, 2012)

Toro said:


> Mama, don't let your babies grow up to be lawyers.  Financially, it's not worth it unless you go to a top tier school and get hired by a big Wall Street firm.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*Glad you at least mentioned opportunity costs.  The childish, depressing, and insulting collegiate indentured servitude means lawyers didn't earn a living until they were 25, which unnatural sacrifice turns them into bitter, vindictive and  greedy zombies.*


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## PrometheusBound (Jan 3, 2012)

Tipsycatlover said:


> Maybe we should have colleges and universities like they do in China.  Completely free.  There are no fluffy courses.  No social study programs, just hard core education.  And, you do not get to fail.  Failure is not an option.  There is no partying, no drinking, no sex, no drugs.   Fun seekers and failures have a different employment for them.   After all, you don't think anyone really applies for those factory jobs, do you?


Unnatural, depressing, and insulting self-sacrifice creates zombies. That's why Red China has always been an ant colony.


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## PrometheusBound (Jan 3, 2012)

Katzndogz said:


> Toro said:
> 
> 
> > It doesn't pay to go to law school.
> ...



These workoholics sacrifice their personal lives and personalities for this zombie success.  Greed for green grinds away the soul.


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## Unkotare (Jan 3, 2012)

PrometheusBound said:


> Tipsycatlover said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe we should have colleges and universities like they do in China.  Completely free.  There are no fluffy courses.  No social study programs, just hard core education.  And, you do not get to fail.  Failure is not an option.  There is no partying, no drinking, no sex, no drugs.   Fun seekers and failures have a different employment for them.   After all, you don't think anyone really applies for those factory jobs, do you?
> ...



First of all, the statement you quoted is not accurate. Second, how much time have you spent in China?


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## Unkotare (Jan 3, 2012)

PrometheusBound said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> > Toro said:
> ...





You lazy shit.


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## PrometheusBound (Jan 4, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> PrometheusBound said:
> 
> 
> > Katzndogz said:
> ...



Those who sacrifice their youth to show something to their corporate Masters are brown-nosing Mamas' Boys who were afraid to grow up.


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## Unkotare (Jan 4, 2012)

PrometheusBound said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > PrometheusBound said:
> ...



Dedicating time and energy - and *gasp!* delaying gratification - in order to improve oneself, compete more effectively, and achieve long-term goals is not "sacrifice," asshole; it's what separates winners from losers. 

Laziness, addiction to immediate gratification, fear of authority - and of success - are the traits of little animals who are unwilling and unable to grow into actual human beings.


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## PrometheusBound (Jan 5, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> PrometheusBound said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...


Delayed gratification of necessities creates an emotionally crippled adult, which you prove every time you post.  But I'm sure you believe that your childish sheepishness while submitting to the demands of your hero capitalists made a man out of you.


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## Unkotare (Jan 5, 2012)

You lazy little fucking loser.


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## Shepherd_Shaw (Jan 11, 2012)

College Cost is very high because they provide a good facility and they gives a High Education so they required a best lecture so they take high cost because they have to pay good salary to the lecture so College's cost is very high.


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## Katzndogz (Jan 11, 2012)

Shepherd_Shaw said:


> College Cost is very high because they provide a good facility and they gives a High Education so they required a best lecture so they take high cost because they have to pay good salary to the lecture so College's cost is very high.



Are you in college or have a college education?  If so, you have just proved the point.


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## KissMy (Jan 11, 2012)

College can be free!!!!

Use iTunes-U. It lets you watch & listen to 340,000 college courses for free on-line.


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## waltky (Feb 8, 2012)

Student loan debt contributing to bankruptcies...

*Student debt pushing more people toward bankruptcy, lawyers say*
_February 7, 2012,  More than four-fifths of bankruptcy attorneys have seen a notable jump in the number of potential clients with student loan debt, the National Assn. of Consumer Bankruptcy Attorneys says._


> Student loan debt is pushing an increasing number of young people and their parents toward bankruptcy, according to a survey released Tuesday.  More than four-fifths of bankruptcy attorneys say they've seen a notable jump in the number of potential clients with student loan debt, with nearly half the lawyers reporting a significant increase in such cases, according to the report by the National Assn. of Consumer Bankruptcy Attorneys.
> 
> Nearly one-quarter of attorneys say the number of potential student loan clients has risen 50% to 100%, while 39% of attorneys report increases of 25% to 50%.  Student debt is rising for obvious reasons: steadily spiraling college costs, financial aid cutbacks at public universities and a stubbornly weak economy that's making it difficult for graduates to find jobs.
> 
> ...


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## Gadawg73 (Feb 8, 2012)

chanel said:


> We will be paying for two next year.  They have been offered no assistance because of our income.  That's ok.  We've saved since they were born.
> 
> What's not ok is the waste and corruption that goes on at these schools and the GD nickle and diming for extra fees, textbooks, health insurance, etc.  What's not ok is using tuition and taxpayer money to pay for foreign students to attend for free.  What's not ok is paying football coaches $2M a year.
> 
> And what really gets my goat is FERPA.  If I am putting out $40K a year, I should have the right to monitor my investment.  If they want to treat students as independent adults, then use THEIR friggin income to calculate the bill.



No taxpayer $$ goes for tuition for foreign students to go for free.
Football funds 90% of all of the athletic departments. Without it there would be few, if any, women sports. Academic domations to the univertsities from the football ticket sales exceeds 8 million a year for the top schools. I also believe their salaries are too much but the revenue generated does so much good for all sports as 80% of college sports teams in major universities lose $$. Most universities the only sports that make $$ are football and basketball. At GEorgia we have another, female gymnastics as The Gym Dogs RULE!!
The university does not pay that 2 million. 60% of that comes from radio and TV show, shoe deals and such.
Textbooks are the teachers, not the schools. Go online and you can get great deals on used books.

My oldest 2 graduated. My youngest is a freshman now. 
Do not listen to the myths and fables of college funding and costs. I spent about 30K a piece on the older 2, they worked and each took out 20K in loans TOTAL.
Best investment ever. They both have jobs making over 40K a year in their mid 20s while the kids that did not go to college are making half that if that.


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## Gadawg73 (Feb 8, 2012)

The killer is the formula as Republicans have doctored it to their advantage.
This is what I advise everyone:
Buy a vacation home as that is not in the formula.
Run up your debt and mortgage the shit out of everything you own.
Max out the credit cards.
Max out car loans.
Spend all your $$$.
Only then will you max out on all of the aid.


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## chanel (Feb 9, 2012)

Gadawg73 said:


> chanel said:
> 
> 
> > We will be paying for two next year.  They have been offered no assistance because of our income.  That's ok.  We've saved since they were born.
> ...



The myth of football paying for all the other sports is just that.  Most schools (with the exception of a few big ones) lose money on sports.  I've done some research.

My younger son cannot buy used textbooks because many of his professors now use on-line homework assignments created by the textbook companies.  You need a brand new book to get the the user code and password.   $270 for a chemistry book he never opened except to get the pass code.

Are you sure that no taxpayer money goes to foreign students. Students from third world countries pay the same as us?  That doesn't seem feasible.


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## editec (Feb 9, 2012)

The various business models mankind is now using for education are about to change.

the high cost of education isn't, I suspect, going to be a problem for very long.

Thank you internet.


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## Gadawg73 (Feb 9, 2012)

chanel said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> > chanel said:
> ...



True, but the ones that lose $$ chanel are not paying 2 million a year to their coach.
We know a coach at a small college and he makes less than a high school coach where the salary is a teachers salary plus a supplement of 10K to coach. 
Most coaches in college and high school, as evidenced by your correct statement that those programs lose $$$, make about $20 an hour when you figure the amount of time they put in. 
That is the norm as you are comparing apples with oranges. 
Students from 3rd world countries come here, do not speak the language, work in their family businesses, save their $$, learn the language and make almost straight As.
They should be held up as an example and not used to make things up with.


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## GHook93 (Feb 10, 2012)

editec said:


> _In part_ the cost of education rising has to do with the availability of loans to pay for college.
> 
> This incidently, in also why the cost of health care rose at a rate so much higher than inflation generally.
> 
> Ironic, no?



Right and WRONG. Education shot up because of the availablity of student loans via the government and the inability of them to be discharged via bankruptcy (all occurred in the 90s). Not to mention the elitist that run the colleges are hypocrites. The bitch and spew propaganda about the evil corps and evil 1%, while they pay tenure professor $300K a year!

Healthcare increases for other reasons. Cost to the insured is pushed off on the free care provided to illegals and the uninsured. Better equipment. Better treatment. Drugs costs more. Much more costly to comply with regulations. The cost of malpractice insurance. The cost of medical school to doctors. People live longer and it costs more.


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## Gadawg73 (Feb 10, 2012)

GHook93 said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> > _In part_ the cost of education rising has to do with the availability of loans to pay for college.
> ...



Where is a tenured professor getting 300K from any university?
Mid 100s in top universities with the median at about 95K nationally.
And many are overpaid at that.


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## Old Rocks (Feb 11, 2012)

Gadawg73 said:


> chanel said:
> 
> 
> > We will be paying for two next year.  They have been offered no assistance because of our income.  That's ok.  We've saved since they were born.
> ...



Depends, Gadawg. We have electricians in their 20's making 100K a year. Millwrights the same age, making 60K to 80K a year. Of course, they are doing overtime, and working odd hours, but the trades are equal to college in many fields.


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## Annie (Feb 11, 2012)

Interesting article that is a bit more open to fact checking than many of the posts here:

President&rsquo;s bad remedy for college-cost crisis&mdash;Glenn Harlan Reynolds - NYPOST.com



> O&#8217;s flawed fix for college-cost crisis
> 
> By GLENN HARLAN REYNOLDS
> 
> ...


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## Gadawg73 (Feb 12, 2012)

Old Rocks said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> > chanel said:
> ...



You will not find a bigger supporter of the trades and training the youth for that. We NEED that. 
We know many in their late 20s making over 50K working HVAC and plumbing. 
Very good point and I agree 100%.
Damn right the trades are = to college. I am a professional by trade but my favorite thing in life is working with my hands on my farm. It is in my blood.
Trades built this country.


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## chanel (Feb 13, 2012)

> "To reach Obama&#8217;s goal, we have to decide, as a matter of public policy, whether college is a right or a privilege.&#8221;
> 
> The word &#8220;rights,&#8221; which once started out as an enumerator of what government could not do, has now become it&#8217;s reverse: the collection of positive rights. These are now a laundry list of what government must provide. At taxpayer expense of course. Otherwise the government can just print the money to pay for it. Either way, it&#8217;s &#8220;free.&#8221;



Belmont Club » By Rights

"Rights" now mean "entitlements".  Very slippery slope.


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## coleenbeauty (Apr 12, 2012)

Everyone is attempting to figure out a way to make some extra money in these hard economic times. For lots of people, that means returning to school. But they will need cash to pay for the application charges, whether they are applying for an undergraduate program or for a graduate degree. Many people use a payday cash advance to pay their fees, and the good thing is they can pay them back after they get their grants or loans for school. Article source: Cost of applying to college

Anything is now possible  as long as we are determined to achieve what we want to achieve and we keep our hopes high.


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## Gadawg73 (Apr 12, 2012)

coleenbeauty said:


> Everyone is attempting to figure out a way to make some extra money in these hard economic times. For lots of people, that means returning to school. But they will need cash to pay for the application charges, whether they are applying for an undergraduate program or for a graduate degree. Many people use a payday cash advance to pay their fees, and the good thing is they can pay them back after they get their grants or loans for school. Article source: Cost of applying to college
> 
> Anything is now possible  as long as we are determined to achieve what we want to achieve and we keep our hopes high.



How is going back to school finding a way to make extra $$$?
That costs big time extra $$$.
There are few to NO jobs out there.


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