# Sports Car Search



## DGS49 (Sep 20, 2017)

Despite all hopes to the contrary, a "sports car" is a THING.  It is an open-top, two-seat roadster with rear-wheel drive and a stick shift.  The examples are too numerous to mention:  MG, Triumph, Morgan, Miata, Z3/4, Corvette, M-B SL, S2000, and so on.

"Sporty" cars are not sports cars.  GTI, Civic Si, Mustang, Camaro, Challenger, M3, S3/4, etc.  There are NO FWD sports cars.  Period.  Sorry if that offends you Mitsu-3000GT fans.

In any event, I am about to dispose of my pristine '04 350Z roadster, and I will try to upgrade, possibly in the Spring.  I won't buy anything new, and have a budget of around $20-24k.  Casting one's net these days is a fairly simple, if time consuming, matter of getting on one of the car sales sites (Autotrader Carguru, etc) and searching for a convertible, 2-door, RWD, stick shift, in the right price range, year range, and mileage range, then sifting through the results.  Being from the Northeast and retired, I would prefer to buy a car from a state where it will likely never have been subject to winter driving, although my Houston-born Chrysler is showing some signs of UV damage from sitting in the sun too long. In any event...

The likely candidates are a Corvette, 911 Carrera, Boxter, Z4, S2000, M-B SL, or possibly a Solstice/Sky Turbo (very impractical).  Maybe even a supercharged Crossfire.  On paper, the Corvette wins, I think.  It performs, is relatively easy to get worked on, should last forever, and gets good gas mileage.  But the others are all OK.  The 911 seems to have a problem with the "intermediate Shaft Bearing," whatever that is, because a LOT of the 99-'05' ads mention whether this thing has been replaced or not.  And I have no doubt that even though a 911 is built to last forever, replacing the IMS is probably a couple thousand dollars (it's such a big deal they tell you that it makes no sense not to replace the clutch at the same time, if it goes).

Any thoughts?  My own experience with these cars is that the Corvette is seldom described as "fun to drive," as is my Z.  It does everything extremely well (except go over bumps), but it does it so easily that the thrill is missing.  The Porsche is often described on Edmund's as a great "every day driver," and something that is exceptionally reliable - except for the aforementioned issue.  The GM turbo-4 is a great engine, and I assume that the GM twins would go like stink, and be available at a good price, even for a pristine, low mileage car.

Any thoughts?

P.S.  I realize that a 911 does not meet my general definition of a sports car, because of the two little pretend seats in the back.  It is the exception that proves the rule.  I suppose there are a couple Ferrari's with back seats, too.  WGAS?


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## WinterBorn (Sep 20, 2017)

DGS49 said:


> Despite all hopes to the contrary, a "sports car" is a THING.  It is an open-top, two-seat roadster with rear-wheel drive and a stick shift.  The examples are too numerous to mention:  MG, Triumph, Morgan, Miata, Z3/4, Corvette, M-B SL, S2000, and so on.
> 
> "Sporty" cars are not sports cars.  GTI, Civic Si, Mustang, Camaro, Challenger, M3, S3/4, etc.  There are NO FWD sports cars.  Period.  Sorry if that offends you Mitsu-3000GT fans.
> 
> ...



Having driven a Porsche 911 Turbo, I think it qualifies quite nicely as a sports car.   The seats are merely to hold room for a few things behind the front seats.  I doubt a toddler could sit back there.

But the car PERFORMS.   In my mind, the qualifications of a sports car should also include performance.


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## Skull Pilot (Sep 20, 2017)

I don't think a sports car must be an open top.

Hard tops have better aerodynamics


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## Mousterian (Sep 20, 2017)

Any Porsche is a joy to drive. And, if you want to really appreciate these things, you should dive in and replace that bearing yourself. Manual gearboxes are straightforward, and Youtube will walk you through the process.


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## Missourian (Sep 20, 2017)

Points,  condenser,  mechanical distributer and fuel pump,  carburetion,   adjustable valves,  V8,  rear wheel drive.


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## Sunni Man (Sep 20, 2017)

One of my favorite sports cars is the Jaguar XJ-S model with the V-12 engine. It has plenty of power with the refined ride of a touring sedan. They were produced in both hard top and convertible versions, although only the automatic transmission was offered. A beautiful car with elegant lines and the easily recognizable long hood. The XJ-S is still way under valued in the collector market.  ...


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## DGS49 (Sep 20, 2017)

The open top is a matter of preference.  Many of the best sports cars can be had either way.

Most of the old classic British sports cars were slow, even at the time they were new.  Miata's are sort of quick, but no better than that.

Since I posted this afternoon, I located a pristine Saturn Sky Red Line, in my favorite color - dark green, with only 11,000 miles.  Aside from the absurd lack of cargo capacity, it's cool.


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## Missourian (Sep 20, 2017)

1972 pontiac firebird,  455 cid,  T-tops,  it even came in green.





And instead of depreciating,  it will appreciate.


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## DGS49 (Sep 21, 2017)

Pontiac Firebirds had a well-deserved reputation for (being kind) poor body integrity.  After two years, if you slammed the door, it sounded like you kicked a bucket of bolts.  It took GM 50 years to figure out how unibody was supposed to work.  No thanks.

And I disagree with the hope that it will appreciate in value.  A car's maximum value for common American cars occurs (inflation aside) about 55 years after it was originally built.  After that, the people who WOULD BE paying a premium for the car start dying out.  Cars from the 60's are going into a slow decline.


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## Stasha_Sz (Sep 21, 2017)

DGS49 said:


> Despite all hopes to the contrary, a "sports car" is a THING.  It is an open-top, two-seat roadster with rear-wheel drive and a stick shift.  The examples are too numerous to mention:  MG, Triumph, Morgan, Miata, Z3/4, Corvette, M-B SL, S2000, and so on.
> 
> "Sporty" cars are not sports cars.  GTI, Civic Si, Mustang, Camaro, Challenger, M3, S3/4, etc.  There are NO FWD sports cars.  Period.  Sorry if that offends you Mitsu-3000GT fans.
> 
> ...


Hi DGS, since I am an occasionally paid Porsche mechanic, let me weigh in on Modern & Classic Porsches in general.

From your price range, you will only be able to afford a modern, water-cooled 911, the air-cooled ones, that do not need extensive restoration, are beyond your price range. The early water-cooled 911's have a number of issues, beyond the intermediate shaft you noted, it just took a while for the boys in Stuttgart to get it right. If you do not intend to do the maintenance yourself, this would be another reason to steer clear of them, professional Porsche mechanics are stupidly expensive and slower than molasses in the wintertime.

The Boxster also has issues on the earlier models, an oil pickup problem that will leave you with a grenaded engine if not addressed. Again, the more recent ones have sorted this out. It is in your price range, but there is a better choice that I will address shortly.

There are, however, air-cooled classics that ARE in your budget. The 914's are currently in the $20K USD for a good 4 cylinder and $25~$30K USD for a decent 6 cylinder. Be wary of rust, several spots are notable for engineered in Porsche rust, most especially the "hell-hole". However, most mechanical work on a 914 can be done with a reasonable set of tools, access to a lift, a 12 pack of beer and some foul language and busted knuckles. Porsche after market parts suppliers can still provide most any part you need for these things including sheet metal. At the end of the day, these are really just souped up Volkswagens, (well the 4 cylinder ones at least).

The current best value in a classic Porsche are the early front engine water-cooled models; specifically the 924/944/944S and 944 turbo, (951). You could buy a pair of 924 or 944 plus a parts car for the money you are talking. These are all "EPA" cars, models built to keep the US EPA off of Porsche's back while they got on with the never to be sufficiently smog-free 911's. I work on all the above and they are very user friendly for even a decent shade-tree mechanic. The 944S is a twin cam version with more HP and the Turbo is well, a Turbo; even more HP. Both of these models are in the $20K USD range and are increasing in value. While masquerading as a Touring car, the S & Turbo have sports car handing and power. The standard 944, (NA or single cam as they are known), not as much power but still plenty of handling. All 944 models have 50-50 weight balance front to rear. As above, parts are still plentiful for the 944 variants.

The 924 early models are a slightly different beast, since Porsche had no water-cooled front engine in the late '70's, they borrowed one from Audi. Parts are harder to find for this engine and the HP is not so great. The later 924S had a Porsche engine and is also in the $20K USD price range.

The 928 is out of your price range unless it has an automatic transmission. You do NOT want a juice-box in a Porsche, especially from this era.

About the only air-cooled 911 variant in your price range would be the late '70's model. These had magnesium engine blocks that had a nasty habit of shucking the cylinder barrels when the head studs got torn from the block. Steer clear of these unless you can verify an engine swap.

What do I recommend? Oddly enough, the BMW Z4 roadster. Well within your price range, reliable, fun and with more power and features than the Boxster, which is Porsche's equivalent. Stasha sez: check it out.


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## Missourian (Sep 21, 2017)

DGS49 said:


> Pontiac Firebirds had a well-deserved reputation for (being kind) poor body integrity.  After two years, if you slammed the door, it sounded like you kicked a bucket of bolts.  It took GM 50 years to figure out how unibody was supposed to work.  No thanks.
> 
> And I disagree with the hope that it will appreciate in value.  A car's maximum value for common American cars occurs (inflation aside) about 55 years after it was originally built.  After that, the people who WOULD BE paying a premium for the car start dying out.  Cars from the 60's are going into a slow decline.


That was just due to those doors being long and heavy.  Had a 76 Caddy Eldo Convertible that had the same problem.

Dollars to donuts the firebird will appreciate at least twice as much as a modern corvette will depriciate during the limited time you would own it.


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## Lewdog (Sep 21, 2017)

DGS49 said:


> Despite all hopes to the contrary, a "sports car" is a THING.  It is an open-top, two-seat roadster with rear-wheel drive and a stick shift.  The examples are too numerous to mention:  MG, Triumph, Morgan, Miata, Z3/4, Corvette, M-B SL, S2000, and so on.
> 
> "Sporty" cars are not sports cars.  GTI, Civic Si, Mustang, Camaro, Challenger, M3, S3/4, etc.  There are NO FWD sports cars.  Period.  Sorry if that offends you Mitsu-3000GT fans.
> 
> ...




A Mistubishi 3000GT VR-4 hard top convertible fits your definition of a sports car.






I used to have a beautiful 1996 3000GT I loved.


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## DGS49 (Sep 25, 2017)

Good thought on the Z4.  It is a car that is on my radar.  Thanks for the tips on the various Porsche options.  I DON'T do my own work, so would have to find a local guy who is reasonable and who works on them - a long putt, to be figurative.

I have always liked the 3000GT's, and "like" the fact that one still sees them for sale with will over 100K on the odometer, and running - it seems - fine.  A low-mileage car is probably around, since it is not urgent that I buy something in a short timeframe.

I have no interest in Firebirds or Camaro's, other than the very latest Camaro, which is getting rave reviews in the car mags.  The only real issue appears to be visibility, which I think I can live with.  But with the ATS chassis, all signals are positive, and it is a basically good design, for once.

Ad will go up to sell my Z as soon as I'm back from vacation, then I'm on the hunt.


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## DGS49 (Oct 13, 2017)

It appears that my Z will be sold and delivered tomorrow (Saturday, 10/14).  I have one buyer "coming with cash," and two others who say that if that deal falls through they will buy it at the asking price.  Seems positive.

My searching around has highlighted a few different cars, based on price, availability, and good Edmunds' consumer reviews:


Audi S4 Convertible: comes with a 4.2L V8, and several stick shift examples are available around the country.
BMW M3 Convertible:  Comes with 3.2L in-line 6 (335hp) and stick shift, appears to be bulletproof.
2012 & later Mustang GT with 5.0L "Coyote" V8.
C6 Corvette (400HP V8, starting in 2005).

All can be found for $20k or less.  The Camaro equivalent of the Mustang/Coyote is probably as good, but it is too big and the poor visibility would be a serious issue for my petite wife.

After due consideration I don't think I can handle the ownership drama of owning a Porsche.  any time anything seemed the least bit out of kilter, I would be worrying that a multi-thousand dollar repair bill is coming.

On paper, the 'Vette probably makes the most sense, but my experience with Corvette's is perversely good.  It handles so well, and handles with so little drama that you don't get to experience the thrill of driving it, unless you push it to extreme speeds.  To illustrate, consider driving an old Triumph around a twisty road.  The tires are screeching and the tail is trying to hang out at around 45mph; that's fun.  In a Corvette, you could be texting and eating a burger at that speed on the same road.

We'll see.


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## Damaged Eagle (Oct 15, 2017)

^^^Redneck sports car^^^

*****CHUCKLE*****


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## Jarlaxle (Oct 16, 2017)

Lewdog said:


> DGS49 said:
> 
> 
> > Despite all hopes to the contrary, a "sports car" is a THING.  It is an open-top, two-seat roadster with rear-wheel drive and a stick shift.  The examples are too numerous to mention:  MG, Triumph, Morgan, Miata, Z3/4, Corvette, M-B SL, S2000, and so on.
> ...


No...no, it doesn't.  It is an overweight, overcomplicated pig. (The VR4 is nearly 4000lbs.)  It is also laden with all sorts of gadgets and gizmos, which will, by now, turn the car into a possibly-unrepairable money pit.


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## Jarlaxle (Oct 16, 2017)

DGS49 said:


> It appears that my Z will be sold and delivered tomorrow (Saturday, 10/14).  I have one buyer "coming with cash," and two others who say that if that deal falls through they will buy it at the asking price.  Seems positive.
> 
> My searching around has highlighted a few different cars, based on price, availability, and good Edmunds' consumer reviews:
> 
> ...


Audi S4: run away as fast as you can.  Service is a nightmare. (Offhand, a timing chain tensioner job is about $4000.)  Service costs are on par with Ferrari or Lamborghini.


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## Desperado (Oct 16, 2017)

Porsche Cayman GT4 -The 3.8-liter flat six basically is a detuned 911 Carrera S engine. But despite having 15 less horsepower than the 911, the *Cayman GT4* blasts from *0-60* miles per hour in 4.2 seconds — 0.1 seconds quicker
Porsche unveils Cayman GT4 | Porsche Club of America


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## DGS49 (Oct 20, 2017)

Here's a thought:  2005/6 GTO.  Basically a 'Vette, all growed up.  Same motor, same trans, 4-wheel independent suspension.  Looking at the magazines at the time, the only issue with them seems to be that nobody liked the styling.  Looked too much like a cheap Chevy.

WGAS?  A full-sized Corvette, able to carry a couple golf bags.

And there are relatively low mileage examples all over the place.  People generally took care of them. When they break, they are still a Chevy, not a semi-exotic German masterpiece.  Definitely worth including in the pack.


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## Godboy (Oct 21, 2017)

The best sports car in the world is not up for debate or a matter of opinion; its simply the Pagani Huayra ("God of Wind"). Dont argue, just accept it. Every one of them built is unique and hand made.

Horacio Pagani is a bit insane. Kind of like a Da Vinci type. Every component on the car is a work of art, even down to the nuts and bolts. The bolts that hold it together alone cost more than most peoples cars.. To give you an idea of how crazy the guy is, on the under side of the seats is an expensive piece of carbon fiber (just like what the body is made out of). When asked why he put such an expensive thing under a seat he said, "someday, someone is going to drop their keys, and when they look under the seat to retrieve them, i want it to be beautiful".


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## DGS49 (Oct 25, 2017)

2001-2004 Z06 'Vette.  Near 400 HP, upgraded handling, etc, etc, etc.  Performs as well as a C6, for a couple thousand less.  911 looks good in person and on paper, but the Z06 Vette is tasty indeed.


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## DGS49 (Nov 3, 2017)

A car to ponder:  I don't know what prompted me to do it, but I jumped on Auto Trader the other day and looked to see if there were any Cadillac XLR's for sale.  The car is near-forgotten these days, but when it was introduced early this century it created quite a stir.  It was made in the same Bowling Green factory where the Corvette was made, and it was directed at Mercedes SL, Jag XK's and similar high-end luxury cars.  The performance at the time was good, but not great, with a pimped out Northstar engine developing 320 HP or so, and a curb weight (of course) a couple hundred pounds more than the contemporary Corvette.  A year or so later, they came out with the XLR-V, with a supercharged version of the same engine generating over 400HP.  No stick shift was available, of course, but it was a true 2-seater with a retractable hardtop and a relatively slick shiftable 5-speed automatic.  Comparisons with the high end European lux sports cars of the era showed that it was in the same ballpark, at least, with some minor complaints.

A well-equipped XLR-V could run as high as $100k, although I doubt anyone actually paid that much. The dealers were virtually giving them away after the first few were snapped up by athletes and collectors.

Right now, you can get a relatively low mileage XLR-V for around $25k.  Of course, it's not a Ferrari or a Porsche 911Turbo, but it is a damned fast car with extremely striking looks and all of the equipment you could even imagine at the time.  In fact some even had nav and backup cameras, when they were very new on the scene.

It's an open question whether they will ever become "collector" cars, but certainly a "V" model has a shot, 10 years out.  So for about the same money you could get a nice, low mileage C6 Vette, or an '04 911.  Although I'm a stick shift guy for sure, I think it's worth considering, especially if it is a particularly tasty one, showing up on Auto Trader or Car Gurus or Craigslist somewhere.


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## Jarlaxle (Nov 4, 2017)

Godboy said:


> The best sports car in the world is not up for debate or a matter of opinion; its simply the Pagani Huayra ("God of Wind"). Dont argue, just accept it. Every one of them built is unique and hand made.
> 
> Horacio Pagani is a bit insane. Kind of like a Da Vinci type. Every component on the car is a work of art, even down to the nuts and bolts. The bolts that hold it together alone cost more than most peoples cars.. To give you an idea of how crazy the guy is, on the under side of the seats is an expensive piece of carbon fiber (just like what the body is made out of). When asked why he put such an expensive thing under a seat he said, "someday, someone is going to drop their keys, and when they look under the seat to retrieve them, i want it to be beautiful".


That abortion is hideous.


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## Godboy (Nov 4, 2017)

Jarlaxle said:


> Godboy said:
> 
> 
> > The best sports car in the world is not up for debate or a matter of opinion; its simply the Pagani Huayra ("God of Wind"). Dont argue, just accept it. Every one of them built is unique and hand made.
> ...


Seeing how  that "hideous abortion" is one of the most sought after cars in the world, your opinion seems to be flawed.


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## Jarlaxle (Nov 4, 2017)

I didn't realize that many people had that level of brain damage.


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## Godboy (Nov 4, 2017)

Jarlaxle said:


> I didn't realize that many people had that level of brain damage.


There arent that many. Just you and a few other retards.


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## Jarlaxle (Nov 4, 2017)

Would it actually hold together for a long trip...say, the One Lap Of America, or even Drag Week?  Be honest.


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## Godboy (Nov 4, 2017)

Jarlaxle said:


> Would it actually hold together for a long trip...say, the One Lap Of America, or even Drag Week?  Be honest.


Many super cars would have troubles with a long trip like that, but Pagani builds his cars masterfully. No expense was spared in making it, which is why it has a $2.5 million price tag.

If you are interested in learning how ridiculous these cars are, watch this video.


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## Jarlaxle (Nov 4, 2017)

Any car that would have trouble with that should not be on the market due to inexcusably shoddy construction!


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## Godboy (Nov 4, 2017)

Jarlaxle said:


> Any car that would have trouble with that should not be on the market due to inexcusably shoddy construction!


Lamborghini's have clutch problems. You might not make a lap around the US without needing a mechanic.

Pagainis test driver has put enough miles on the Huayra to lap the planet 25 times!


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## Jarlaxle (Nov 4, 2017)

Pathetic.  Even more pathetic: the idiots who pay through the nose for the cars, then accept shoddy build quality that would shame a Trabant.


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## Godboy (Nov 4, 2017)

Jarlaxle said:


> Pathetic.  Even more pathetic: the idiots who pay through the nose for the cars, then accept shoddy build quality that would shame a Trabant.


That's the beauty of Paganis! They aren't known for having mechanical problems.


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## Jarlaxle (Nov 4, 2017)

Again: would it actually hold together for a long trip...say, the One Lap Of America, or even Drag Week?


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## Godboy (Nov 4, 2017)

Jarlaxle said:


> Again: would it actually hold together for a long trip...say, the One Lap Of America, or even Drag Week?


Yes, it would.


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## Godboy (Nov 4, 2017)

Jarlaxle said:


> Again: would it actually hold together for a long trip...say, the One Lap Of America, or even Drag Week?


By the way, im a huge R.A. Salvatore fan. Love those books!


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## blastoff (Nov 15, 2017)

Bought a sports car this summer.  It's not the fastest thing out there but it gets up and goes due to a high compression ratio and whatnot.  But it is all sports car and really fun to drive.  

It's a 2016 Mazda MX 5, which I think signals the phasing out of the Miata moniker as the name appears nowhere on the car.  It's the Grand Touring model, loaded, and stickered at only $31k and change, which is a hell of a lot less expensive than many of the cars mentioned in this thread.  

It's a great toy that unfortunately is headed to winter storage tomorrow ahead of our West MI winter.  April can't get here fast enough for me!


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## DGS49 (Nov 30, 2017)

Four "final" candidates. The objective is to get the best car possible for less than $24 thousand.  All of these cars are now theoretical, but based on my searches they are all available with low mileage in near perfect condition, provided the buyer is willing to go anywhere in the U.S. to pick them up (or have them shipped).

(1). 2005 Cadillac XLR.  Low mileage example, in perfect condition.
(2)  2005 Corvette coupe.  Stick shift.  Less than 40,000 miles.
(3)  2001 Porsche 911 Cabriolet.  Around 50,000 miles or less, with the ESO (or whatever) problem addressed.
(4) 1994-8 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4 - low mileage, pristine condition.  (probably around $15k or a little more).

All of these cars are very desirable, and each one of them has a potential downside that I think can be addressed. I think the Northstar problems were all basically addressed by the time the XLR was introduced, and there are things that can be done to guard against the blown head gasket, oil use, etc.  The Porsche has a notable problem in the target years (1999 through 2004), that occurs in about 5% of the cars, but there are several cars available that have addressed that specific problem.  There is always a small number of VR4's available that are in pristine condition, some of which are even one-owner cars.  And like it or not, Mitsubishi did a fantastic job with the outrageous technology, and the 4WS, active suspension, active aero, and so forth are generally still operating fine almost 25 years after the cars were new.  I don't know of anything that has come up with the C6 Corvettes (which is when the upped the HP to 400).

Any one of these cars will be fine with me, it just depends on which ones stand out when I start my serious search when the weather breaks in the Spring.


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