# Obligation to "society"



## Skull Pilot (Feb 7, 2013)

I have been hearing a lot from the sheep lately that we have some sort of obligation to society as a whole.

Well do we really?

I am forced to pay taxes far over the actual value of government services I receive isn't that enough?

What else am I obligated to do for "society"?

Am I responsible for the safety of other peoples' children?
Am I responsible for the bills and livelihood of other people?

Just what does this obligation entail?

Shouldn't it be enough that I live my life without impeding anyone else from doing the same?


----------



## Tech_Esq (Feb 7, 2013)

You don't have much obligation to society, however there are costs association with living in a civil society as opposed to the state of nature. See Montesquieu Social Contract Theory and Locke Two Treatises on Government.

I'm afraid there is no support for the collectivists in either of those works, nor should there be. There is a lot of enlightened self-interest however. That's the basis of society, not using a village to raise your kid.


----------



## Wry Catcher (Feb 7, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> I have been hearing a lot from the sheep lately that we have some sort of obligation to society as a whole.
> 
> Well do we really?
> 
> ...



Yep.  As long as you don't imped others by word or deed.  Seem to be a rather pitiful life though.

Sure, that is your right.  I'm not judging you, I simply wouldn't want you as a neighbor.


----------



## Skull Pilot (Feb 7, 2013)

Wry Catcher said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > I have been hearing a lot from the sheep lately that we have some sort of obligation to society as a whole.
> ...



I wish you would learn to use the quote function.

And you have no idea how I get along with my neighbors.

In fact I'll probably be spending hours plowing out my neighbors and friends this weekend because we're supposed to be getting 2 feet of snow.

But do I have an obligation to plow out everyone in town?

Do I have an obligation to protect your kids from harm if you won't?

And I live my life by the mind your own business philosophy so I do not ever try to impede another as long as what they do has no effect on me.


----------



## Oddball (Feb 7, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> I have been hearing a lot from the sheep lately that we have some sort of obligation to society as a whole.
> 
> Well do we really?
> 
> ...


"Society" doesn't even exist, in the corporeal sense...I cannot borrow from you a bucket of "society", with the promise that I'll pay you back with a barrel of it at the end of the month...It is a fiction, a straw man....As such, it is completely subjective.

Anyone telling you that you have any debt/obligation to that which does not exist is a thug and a tyrant.


----------



## Sallow (Feb 7, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> I have been hearing a lot from the sheep lately that we have some sort of obligation to society as a whole.
> 
> Well do we really?
> 
> ...



It's in the Constitution.

You live in a country you had no hand in starting..and have no "obligation" to continue living in if you find the conditions that reprehensible.

You can find a land bereft of civilization, and start over.

Or..if you are feeling the need for bloody revolution, you can do that too. Be warned, however, that the latter has dire consequences, even for those who are successful.


----------



## Sallow (Feb 7, 2013)

Oddball said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > I have been hearing a lot from the sheep lately that we have some sort of obligation to society as a whole.
> ...



Feel free to leave..or continue to leech off of it..while braying about it's "evils".


----------



## Sallow (Feb 7, 2013)

Here ya go..anarchists and conservarinos!

Islands for Sale Worldwide - Private Islands Online


----------



## Oddball (Feb 7, 2013)

Sallow said:


> Oddball said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...


Piss up a rope, commie.


----------



## martybegan (Feb 7, 2013)

Sallow said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > I have been hearing a lot from the sheep lately that we have some sort of obligation to society as a whole.
> ...



Where in the consitution does it say people who make money have to support people who don't, can't, or won't?


----------



## Katzndogz (Feb 7, 2013)

There is no obligation that the individual has to society beyond the social contract of if you leave me alone, I leave you alone.

There are threats, coercion and intimidation but no obligation.


----------



## Wry Catcher (Feb 7, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...


That's fine.

I simply disagree.  You see there is such a thing as Normative Ethics which is essentially is a way to arrive at moral standards that regulate right and wrong conduct. In a sense, it is a search for an ideal litmus test of proper behavior. The Golden Rule is a classic example of a normative principle: 

_Do unto others as you would have others do unto you. [Matthew 7:12]_

If I do not want my neighbor to steal from me, then it is wrong for me to steal from her.  If I would want people to feed me if I was starving, then I should help feed starving people.

The way the Callous Conservatives look at life is antithetical to the Golden Rule.  It is (as I've posted before) "I've got mine, screw the rest of you"; and most recently this set seems concerned with three things:  Me, Myself and I.  I'm not that way and that's not how I raised my kids.


----------



## Michelle420 (Feb 7, 2013)

The social contract has socially constructed obligations to individuals and in exchange for that some agreed upon responsibilities to society.


----------



## High_Gravity (Feb 7, 2013)

Uncle Saddam said we have an obligation to society!


----------



## Truthmatters (Feb 7, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> I have been hearing a lot from the sheep lately that we have some sort of obligation to society as a whole.
> 
> Well do we really?
> 
> ...



Perhaps you would perfer a king to run things like Ibsen who you admire so much


----------



## Truthmatters (Feb 7, 2013)

Human beings grew larger brains by being social animals.

It is much a part of being human to care for others in the pack as it is to be smart.


maybe you are lacking some human qualities if you hate to care for others so much


Its called being a sociopath


----------



## Wry Catcher (Feb 7, 2013)

Katzndogz said:


> There is no obligation that the individual has to society beyond the social contract of if you leave me alone, I leave you alone.
> 
> There are threats, coercion and intimidation but no obligation.



If you drive you have a duty to obey traffic laws;

If you hunt you have a duty to obey fish and game laws;

If you do business you have a duty to obey business and professions laws;

If you are sick you have a responsibilty not to infect others;

If you vote you have a responsibilty to abide by the decision, not to necessarily agree with it;

Duties are mandates, failure to comply have consequences.  Responsibilities are not mandated, they carry no civil or criminal penalty for violations - they may have social consequences.


----------



## Wry Catcher (Feb 7, 2013)

Oddball said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > I have been hearing a lot from the sheep lately that we have some sort of obligation to society as a whole.
> ...



Your premise is invalid (actually absurd), your conclusion is absurd and ridiculous.


----------



## Michelle420 (Feb 7, 2013)

Wry Catcher said:


> Oddball said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



Society is relative to social constructions and so the ideals of a society in and of itself have no real reality except what human beings place on it.

I am thinking that's what he meant by corporeal sense but I may be wrong.


----------



## Truthmatters (Feb 7, 2013)

4 in 100 human beings are sociopaths.

3 will be men and 1 a woman.


this OP is just one of the three


----------



## TNHarley (Feb 7, 2013)

Me and Wry have a debate on this(in one way or another) tomorrow night. Everyone check it out!


----------



## Skull Pilot (Feb 7, 2013)

Sallow said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > I have been hearing a lot from the sheep lately that we have some sort of obligation to society as a whole.
> ...


----------



## Skull Pilot (Feb 7, 2013)

Wry Catcher said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > Wry Catcher said:
> ...



That is no different than they way I treat people.  I want them to leave me alone and respect my rights and my privacy and that is how I treat them.

But it's you progressives that want to butt in to every aspect of my life from what I eat to how many guns I have.  So please follow your own advice and treat me the way I treat you and leave me be.



> The way the Callous Conservatives look at life is antithetical to the Golden Rule.  It is (as I've posted before) "I've got mine, screw the rest of you"; and most recently this set seems concerned with three things:  Me, Myself and I.  I'm not that way and that's not how I raised my kids.



I've never said "screw you" to anyone who has asked me for help. But I draw the line at people thinking they are entitled to my help and or the fruits of my labor simply because they live in the same country as I


----------



## Skull Pilot (Feb 7, 2013)

drifter said:


> The social contract has socially constructed obligations to individuals and in exchange for that some agreed upon responsibilities to society.



Please itemize those responsibilities.


----------



## Skull Pilot (Feb 7, 2013)

Truthmatters said:


> Human beings grew larger brains by being social animals.
> 
> It is much a part of being human to care for others in the pack as it is to be smart.
> 
> ...



You shouldn't use the term "pack" when referring to humans because you would not want to live by pack behavior.


----------



## Truthmatters (Feb 7, 2013)

people who dont want to help others have mental problems.

IT is normal for humans to desire to help other humans.

Its not our fault you are an incomplete human who cant seem to understand the need for compassion for others


----------



## Skull Pilot (Feb 7, 2013)

Truthmatters said:


> 4 in 100 human beings are sociopaths.
> 
> 3 will be men and 1 a woman.
> 
> ...



One can feel no obligation to "society" and not be a sociopath.


----------



## Michelle420 (Feb 7, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > The social contract has socially constructed obligations to individuals and in exchange for that some agreed upon responsibilities to society.
> ...



They change over time since everything is socially constructed, human beings change their mind, opinions and wants, desires and as such they influence those changes in the socially constructed agreement that makes a society, an amendment would be an example of change.


----------



## Truthmatters (Feb 7, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> > 4 in 100 human beings are sociopaths.
> ...



You are wrong.

stop rationalizing your distain for others


----------



## Skull Pilot (Feb 7, 2013)

Truthmatters said:


> people who dont want to help others have mental problems.
> 
> IT is normal for humans to desire to help other humans.
> 
> Its not our fault you are an incomplete human who cant seem to understand the need for compassion for others



Where did I say I don't help others?

Did you miss the part about me plowing out my neighbors and friends.  The last time the government fucked up and people were without power for weeks around here as soon as I got my power back I let someone use my generator.

But people are not entitled to my help or my money or my time just because they say they are part of "society"


----------



## Skull Pilot (Feb 7, 2013)

Truthmatters said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > Truthmatters said:
> ...



Prove that I am wrong.


----------



## Wry Catcher (Feb 7, 2013)

drifter said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > Oddball said:
> ...



Odd-dude is locked into Objectivism and has read only the books of Ayn Rand and his thesaurus, or so it seems.

Without posting an acadmemic defintion of society suffice it to say most of us understand the American Society is much different than the society in China or India and less so but still different than England.  The meaning of a word is in its use, not to what it references or how it is defined in the dictionary.

Odd-dude uses a reference in his use of he word Society, "there is no body".  And yet society exists.

Odd-dude should have a dinner party and invite his friends and relatives.  He should serve roasted dog, post a picture of the dog he 'rescued' from the pound and let everyone know the dog was going to die the next day anyone.  He will learn that society does speak rather quickly I would think.


----------



## Truthmatters (Feb 7, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> I have been hearing a lot from the sheep lately that we have some sort of obligation to society as a whole.
> 
> Well do we really?
> 
> ...



you seem pretty unhappy with society requring you to help others


----------



## TNHarley (Feb 7, 2013)

Truthmatters said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > I have been hearing a lot from the sheep lately that we have some sort of obligation to society as a whole.
> ...



Why should he be happy to be paying for all your crack and vodka?


----------



## Skull Pilot (Feb 7, 2013)

Truthmatters said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > I have been hearing a lot from the sheep lately that we have some sort of obligation to society as a whole.
> ...



Required?

I am not "required" to do anything for anyone if I choose not to.


----------



## Truthmatters (Feb 7, 2013)

then leave the country if the rest of us decide to help each other.


No one is forcing you to stay


----------



## TNHarley (Feb 7, 2013)

Truthmatters said:


> then leave the country if the rest of us decide to help each other.
> 
> 
> No one is forcing you to stay



You are asking a contributor to leave the country? Does 51% not mean anything to you?


----------



## Truthmatters (Feb 7, 2013)

The American peopole have voted FOR these programs to help each other.

join us or leave

Your choice.

I know you have said before the the majority NEVER NEVER gets anything right.

why would you stay in a democracy then?


----------



## Skull Pilot (Feb 7, 2013)

Truthmatters said:


> The American peopole have voted FOR these programs to help each other.
> 
> join us or leave
> 
> ...



Where did I even mention any "program"?

I don't think you're even reading the same thread as the rest of us.


----------



## TNHarley (Feb 7, 2013)

Truthmatters said:


> The American peopole have voted FOR these programs to help each other.
> 
> join us or leave
> 
> ...



So the american people* did* vote for handouts? What a moron


----------



## Tech_Esq (Feb 7, 2013)

martybegan said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



Article I, Section 8 -- The Congress shall have the power to .... levy taxes, duties and imposts .... etc etc from your pocket. and then again in Amendment 16, the Income Tax.

The Congress in all this infinite (or possibly, though not tangibly, finite) power has decided you don't really get to know what your money goes to. So, we can't answer the latter part of your question, suffice it to say that, it does.


----------



## Wry Catcher (Feb 7, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



If you're not a Callous Conservatives the reference was not to you.  And yet you lump all progressives into one entity and infer that I want to control you.  I don't.  At least in so far as what you do on private property with the owners permission; what you do on the commons is a different story.

If I see you driving recklessly on a public road, though I have no duty to do so, I will report you to the legal authority via 911, provide my name and contact info and if called to testify - should your actions cause property damage or personal injury - I will do so.  That's what being a responsible citizen is, IMO; clearly you disagree.


----------



## Skull Pilot (Feb 7, 2013)

Wry Catcher said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > Wry Catcher said:
> ...



I don't drive recklessly (anymore).

And I have reported suspected drunk drivers.  You see that behavior affects me and others on the road. And does not fall into the "not impeding anyone" category. I don't see the need to testify in court though because if he was drunk a breathalyzer and field sobriety check should be enough to convict.

Now if your neighbor routinely drank and passed out in a puddle of his own vomit and urine in his own back yard everyday,  I would say that falls into the mind your own business category.


----------



## Oddball (Feb 7, 2013)

Tech_Esq said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > Sallow said:
> ...


Right...But those taxes described in article 1, Section 8, were for the purpose of providing the various de jure federal functions described elsewhere in the Constitution...Not as a mechanism to take resources from one group of individuals, and use them to feather the nests of politically favored groups and/or individuals.

&#8220;I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.&#8221;
~James Madison


----------



## Oddball (Feb 7, 2013)

drifter said:


> The social contract has socially constructed obligations to individuals and in exchange for that some agreed upon responsibilities to society.


The "social contract" is as much a fictitious straw man as "society".


----------



## Spoonman (Feb 7, 2013)

Sallow said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > I have been hearing a lot from the sheep lately that we have some sort of obligation to society as a whole.
> ...



so as long as we are following the constitution to the letter of the law, lets have the left back off its attacks on guns and religion.


----------



## Wry Catcher (Feb 7, 2013)

Oddball said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > The social contract has socially constructed obligations to individuals and in exchange for that some agreed upon responsibilities to society.
> ...



Then so is laissez faire capitalism, communism and all the rest of the isms including Randianism.


----------



## rightwinger (Feb 7, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> I have been hearing a lot from the sheep lately that we have some sort of obligation to society as a whole.
> 
> Well do we really?
> 
> ...



You receive much more as a member of society than you pay in.  You are able to function much more effectively as a member of a group than you are as an individual. As an individual, you are little more than a hunter/gatherer trying to scrape out an existence

As a member of society you are expected to contribute


----------



## Skull Pilot (Feb 7, 2013)

rightwinger said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > I have been hearing a lot from the sheep lately that we have some sort of obligation to society as a whole.
> ...



This is not about membership but about obligation. I don't have much of a choice whether or not to be a member of society. 

I contribute far more than I receive.

I do not receive anywhere near the value in services that the government forces me to pay for those services.

What other obligation do I have other than to abide by the law?

Do I have to provide people with a job?
Do I have to feed other people?
Do I have to protect other people?
Do I have to agree to have my rights limited because other people think it will make them safer?

Tell me what is it that I am required to contribute that I don't already?


----------



## Oddball (Feb 7, 2013)

Wry Catcher said:


> Oddball said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...


Irrelevant.

Besides that, I don't sanction the waving a gun in your face to comply with capitalism, Randianism, or any other -ism...Sociopaths like you, OTOH, make careers out of demanding that free noviolent individuals conform to your  subjective hallucinations at to what "society" should be.


----------



## rightwinger (Feb 7, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



The best example of what you propose is a pioneer leaving a city and going out into the wilderness to scratch out an existence without any help. You hunt, fish, grow crops and hope to feed your family

Strange thing about those pioneers is they could not wait to become states. They needed the protection from Indians, they were limited to how much they could succeed. You need a way to sell your goods. Once railroads came in there was a way to send crops and beef to the population centers for profit. 

Without a society you can achieve little more than subsistence farming. With a society, your economic capabilities are boundless

You benefit MUCH more from a society than you put in. Quit whining about contributing to it


----------



## Oddball (Feb 7, 2013)

rightwinger said:


> The best example of what you propose is a pioneer leaving a city and going out into the wilderness to scratch out an existence without any help. You hunt, fish, grow crops and hope to feed your family
> 
> Strange thing about those pioneers is they could not wait to become states. They needed the protection from Indians, they were limited to how much they could succeed. You need a way to sell your goods. Once railroads came in there was a way to send crops and beef to the population centers for profit.
> 
> Without a society you can achieve little more than subsistence farming. With a society, your economic capabilities are boundless


Says you.

Problem being that there are nearly 7 billion people who quite probably have nearly 7 billion different descriptions as to what constitutes this "society" thingy.

I know, I know...Maybe they should just all buy islands too, huh?


----------



## rightwinger (Feb 7, 2013)

Oddball said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > The best example of what you propose is a pioneer leaving a city and going out into the wilderness to scratch out an existence without any help. You hunt, fish, grow crops and hope to feed your family
> ...



And yet, almost every one of those 7 billion forms some type of society. It is human nature and it just makes sense if you want to survive in the world

Each of those societies has some form of pooling of resources. Each has a mechanism for taking care of those who cannot take care of themselves. 

It is only the Libertarians among us who seek to pull away from our instincts to form society, to enforce every man for himself and survival of the fittest. 

That is why no societies embrace Libertarian ideals


----------



## Michelle420 (Feb 7, 2013)

Oddball said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > The social contract has socially constructed obligations to individuals and in exchange for that some agreed upon responsibilities to society.
> ...



Of course.

There is no such thing as anything unless a group agrees to it. 

Once agreed to, some see it as set in stone while others don't.


----------



## Michelle420 (Feb 7, 2013)

Wry Catcher said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > Wry Catcher said:
> ...



Sure, I get what you mean, and I was only guessing as to his meaning. 

I may have spoken out of turn.

It is my opinion all societies are socially constructed including the bylaws and rules and can be changed at any time the given society wants to change them.


----------



## Oddball (Feb 7, 2013)

drifter said:


> Oddball said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...


I am  contractor...I have a very keen understanding of what contracts entail and what they don't.

The mythical straw man "social contract" is, in legal parlance, a contract of adhesion...Adhesion contracts have been deemed null and void ab initio (as though they never existed) in every court for at least the last three centuries.


----------



## Oddball (Feb 7, 2013)

rightwinger said:


> Oddball said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


Entirely irrelevant to the fact that your description of "society" is no more valid than anyone else's.

And your ideas on who libertarians are and their particular codes of ethics couldn't be more off track if they had to be.


----------



## Skull Pilot (Feb 7, 2013)

rightwinger said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


   You had your family to help.  Kids back then didn't sit on their asses all day with a cell phone in their hands.



> Strange thing about those pioneers is they could not wait to become states. They needed the protection from Indians, they were limited to how much they could succeed. You need a way to sell your goods. Once railroads came in there was a way to send crops and beef to the population centers for profit.



Yes they wanted opportunity but you still haven't answered my question. And your analogy is a bit stretched btw.

What obligation to we have to society other than obeying the laws.



> Without a society you can achieve little more than subsistence farming. With a society, your economic capabilities are boundless
> 
> You benefit MUCH more from a society than you put in. Quit whining about contributing to it



Stating a fact is not whining.

My wife and I pay on average over 75000 a year in state local and federal taxes.

Tell me what do I get in return that is worth that much money?

We don't use public water or sewer, we don't have kids so we don't use schools etc

If we all benefit the same or if in fact some benefit more than others shouldn't those that receive the most in government services pay the most?

What exactly is my obligation to society other than those I already fulfill?


----------



## rightwinger (Feb 7, 2013)

Oddball said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Oddball said:
> ...



Libertarians define society as fits their needs. They want the parts that they benefit but want to discard the parts that benefits others. The virtue of selfishness is typical Ayn Rand and makes any society dysfunctional


----------



## Skull Pilot (Feb 7, 2013)

rightwinger said:


> Oddball said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



No mostly they want people to be responsible for themselves and pay their own way and not to expect someone else to pay for them.


----------



## Oddball (Feb 7, 2013)

rightwinger said:


> Oddball said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


Oh, and you're not defining society as it fits your needs to carry on your line of bullshit?

The parts that benefit libertarians benefit everyone else...If you're to lazy to get up off your ass and be a benefit to the mythical "society", then shut your face and *YOU* move to the fucking island.


----------



## Michelle420 (Feb 7, 2013)

Oddball said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > Oddball said:
> ...



I am coming more from the social constructionist point of view.

Everything is socially constructed in a society, including a social contract.

An agreement has to be agreed upon in order for a society to accept rules, laws and by laws.

Law is also socially constructed.

So as times change and trends change, so to do agreements and what society is willing to accept or reject. 

Again, Amendments are one example where you might see this happen to reflect a society change.


----------



## Oddball (Feb 7, 2013)

drifter said:


> Oddball said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...


The Constitution imposes no obligations upon the citizenry at large...It's a tract that politicians and bureaucrats swear an oath to uphold and protect.

Besides that, I didn't sign the Constitution...I didn't come into the world with a bill to be paid or an allegiance to be imposed upon me.


----------



## rightwinger (Feb 7, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Oddball said:
> ...



Once again, the virtue of selfishness

Every man for himself vs I am my brothers keeper


----------



## rightwinger (Feb 7, 2013)

Oddball said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Oddball said:
> ...



Typical libertarian dogma......Every man for himself and those who cannot keep up are discarded


----------



## Oddball (Feb 7, 2013)

rightwinger said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


I can tell you never read anything but the cover.


----------



## Oddball (Feb 7, 2013)

rightwinger said:


> Oddball said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


Typical lefloon stereotyping and bigotry.

You can't bring any intellectual ammo to the table, so smear and defame.


----------



## Michelle420 (Feb 7, 2013)

Oddball said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > The social contract has socially constructed obligations to individuals and in exchange for that some agreed upon responsibilities to society.
> ...





drifter said:


> Oddball said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...





drifter said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...





Oddball said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > Oddball said:
> ...



The idea of "law" "court" "society" is a socially constructed perception. (a role human beings created and gave a name to, it has power because enough people agree it does)

Human Beings made all this up and have called it a government.

When we start from there we can also see that as society evolves trends, cultures and attitudes influence changes made into that social structured society.

This is why some people who are against a lot of the rules opt-out and live off the grid they don't want to agree to the social terms that the majority is making.


----------



## rightwinger (Feb 7, 2013)

Oddball said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Oddball said:
> ...



Typical Libertarian deflection

We will define what we aren't, but refuse to define what we are


----------



## Wry Catcher (Feb 7, 2013)

Oddball said:


> drifter said:
> 
> 
> > Oddball said:
> ...



Herein above, clearly stated is odd-dude's entire ideology, "It's all about Me, Myself and I"; _"fuck the rest of you"._.


----------



## rightwinger (Feb 7, 2013)

Wry Catcher said:


> Oddball said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...



Once again reflecting the typical Libertarian mindset. Leave me alone while I am doing well but you damned well better help me when I need it


----------



## Michelle420 (Feb 7, 2013)

Wry Catcher said:


> Oddball said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...



I like being part of a society that helps the impoverished, elderly and children.

I do understand that not everyone wants to do that and that over 200 years ago historically speaking, that society created a document with verbiage that gave them a right not have to.

Today's society wants to change things and have used the venue of amendments.

I still think that the original document is outdated and had a social bias in that at the time it was constructed women, and blacks had no right to contribute ideals to it and no voting rights to agree to what was constructed. 

So to have to hold it's value as if it's some kind of holy book of government seems silly to me.

But what should those folks do who want to live in a more leave-me-alone and I will leave-you-alone society do?


----------



## Oddball (Feb 7, 2013)

Wry Catcher said:


> Oddball said:
> 
> 
> > drifter said:
> ...


Indeed...If you're not a sociopathic commie like you, then you're a total anarchist.

How you ended up as a cop (and I doubt that claim), I'll never know.


----------



## Oddball (Feb 7, 2013)

rightwinger said:


> Oddball said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


No deflection at all.

Your churlish and  bigoted stereotypes leave nothing to defend against, besides churlishness and bigotry.


----------



## Wry Catcher (Feb 8, 2013)

Oddball said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > Oddball said:
> ...



The last phrase is the first time you've shown some introspection.  Good for you.
The fact is, you'd make a lousy investigator.


----------



## Skull Pilot (Feb 8, 2013)

rightwinger said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



False dichotomy.

And if you feel you have the right to be someone's keeper as you say then you are the one with issues.

And you still haven't answered my question.

What obligation does one have to "society" other than obeying the law?


----------



## rightwinger (Feb 8, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



As I have said numerous times on this thread. You benefit greatly from society and have an obligation to contribute.


----------



## Skull Pilot (Feb 8, 2013)

rightwinger said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



Contribute what?


----------



## rightwinger (Feb 8, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



 Money, time, labor


----------



## Skull Pilot (Feb 8, 2013)

rightwinger said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



So I'm supposed to give my time and labor to "society" for free?


----------



## rightwinger (Feb 8, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



You have a moral obligation to the society and a legal one

Your moral obligation is met through charity, participating in your community, volunteer work, community projects
Your legal obligation is met through taxes

For some, the moral obligation is ignored and taxes are their only contribution. For others, they are not expected to contribute taxes but do fulfill their moral obligation to their community


----------



## Skull Pilot (Feb 8, 2013)

rightwinger said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



Charity begins at home.

And your morality is not to be forced on others.


----------



## Sallow (Feb 8, 2013)

Oddball said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> > Oddball said:
> ...



You first anachisto!


----------



## editec (Feb 8, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> I have been hearing a lot from the sheep lately that we have some sort of obligation to society as a whole.
> 
> Well do we really?
> 
> ...



Your obligation is merely to obey the laws of the land.


----------



## rightwinger (Feb 8, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



Yes charity does begin at home and is supplemented by the charity of our society

I'm afraid morality is forced on you. Whether you agree or not, your tax dollars will be used to help the homeless, the handicapped, the aged.....it is what societies do


----------



## Sallow (Feb 8, 2013)

martybegan said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...





In the preamble:



> We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.



And if that's not enough it's in the powers of congress:


> The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;



And it's peppered with all sorts of services and ways to pay for them.

Give it a read.


----------



## Skull Pilot (Feb 8, 2013)

rightwinger said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



So then I have no obligation past the legal one.


----------



## Sallow (Feb 8, 2013)

Spoonman said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



Sure.

So long as the right keep them out of the public sphere.

Think you can stop shooting kids in the face and shoving religion up everyone's wazoo?


----------



## Sallow (Feb 8, 2013)

Oddball said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > The best example of what you propose is a pioneer leaving a city and going out into the wilderness to scratch out an existence without any help. You hunt, fish, grow crops and hope to feed your family
> ...



Nope.

Just the ones who hate society.


----------



## Skull Pilot (Feb 8, 2013)

Sallow said:


> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> > Sallow said:
> ...



So now you have to prove that every mass shooting was committed by the so called "right" or your argument isn't worth a pile of shit.


----------



## Sallow (Feb 8, 2013)

Oddball said:


> Tech_Esq said:
> 
> 
> > martybegan said:
> ...



Ah..you're a fan of Madison eh?



> We are free today substantially but the day will come when our Republic will be an impossibility. It will be impossibility because wealth will be concentrated in the hands of a few. A republic cannot stand upon bayonets, and when that day comes, when the wealth of the nation will be in the hands of a few, then we must rely upon the wisdom of the best elements in the country to readjust the laws of the nation to the changed conditions.
> James Madison.


----------



## Oddball (Feb 8, 2013)

rightwinger said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


No, that's what looters and thugs do.


----------



## Sallow (Feb 8, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> > Spoonman said:
> ...



Easy enough.

The NRA is pretty right wing. It keeps guns in the hands of psychos. The psychos shoot kids in the face.

You're welcome.


----------



## Skull Pilot (Feb 8, 2013)

Sallow said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > Sallow said:
> ...



FAIL.

The NRA did not commit any shootings.


----------



## rightwinger (Feb 8, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



Thats the way it works

If you want to just pay taxes and not lift a finger to make your community a better place to live, you are free to do so


----------



## rightwinger (Feb 8, 2013)

Oddball said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



Yes it is

And when you are besieged by looters and thugs you call on society to protect you


----------



## Oddball (Feb 8, 2013)

rightwinger said:


> Oddball said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


Not when the looters and thugs are your "society".

But thanks for the left-handed admission that you have the mindset and attitude of looters and thugs.


----------



## martybegan (Feb 8, 2013)

rightwinger said:


> Oddball said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



And society will be there in 10-12 minutes usually. I prefer to rely on myself, and hopefully an adequate firearm.


----------



## rightwinger (Feb 8, 2013)

Oddball said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Oddball said:
> ...



Ah yes..

The views of a Libertarian anarchist


----------



## martybegan (Feb 8, 2013)

rightwinger said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



So its better to use the government to force people to pay for things that probably do not benefit them one bit? Why not ASK people to donate to a cause you believe in instead of using the IRS's gun at thier head to force contributions?

Forced generosity is not generosity at all.


----------



## rightwinger (Feb 8, 2013)

martybegan said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Oddball said:
> ...



Oh yea.....the Dodge City analogy

I can protect myself from any threat. I don't need police, I don't need a military....I gots my shotgun handy


----------



## rightwinger (Feb 8, 2013)

martybegan said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



You belong to a society and have been given the vote. As a member of society, you get to elect representatives who decide on the needs of society and how they should be paid for. You may agree with those decisions or you may disagree. But you still benefit as a member of society


----------



## martybegan (Feb 8, 2013)

rightwinger said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



You were the one who brought up looters and thugs, and now that you backed yourself into a corner, you are flailing to get out of it. And why bring the military into it? Looters and thugs are not a foreign threat, so posse comitius applies. 

Police are around as a preventative threat to crime, as well as a punishment mechanism after the fact, thier role in actively stopping crime is a much smaller (and mostly based on luck) function of their job.


----------



## martybegan (Feb 8, 2013)

rightwinger said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



And what happens when 51% of society finds out they can vote for the other 49% to pay for thier stuff? 

Thats why we have a consitution, to at least attempt that.

Why are progressives so fond of mob rule?


----------



## Skull Pilot (Feb 8, 2013)

martybegan said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Oddball said:
> ...



More like 30 minutes where I live


----------



## Sallow (Feb 8, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



Not a fail.

The United States government used that very argument as one of the reasons to invade countries.

They use the argument that the government of those countries are providing funding for terrorists to commit terror.


----------



## Sallow (Feb 8, 2013)

martybegan said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > martybegan said:
> ...



How do you pay for your stuff?


----------



## Skull Pilot (Feb 8, 2013)

Sallow said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > Sallow said:
> ...



So now you're in favor of undeclared wars and willy nilly invasions?

And I suppose you can prove that the NRA is funding people who commit mass shootings?


----------



## martybegan (Feb 8, 2013)

Sallow said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



I don't find that question germane to the conversation, but I work for a living, and pay a sizeable amount in taxes, local state and federal.


----------



## Truthmatters (Feb 8, 2013)

Oddball said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



Then why would you stay in a country with hundereds of years of tradition of helping the less fortunate?


Move to some place that has no taxes.

sIts what an adult would do.


You dont like this country so leave


----------



## martybegan (Feb 8, 2013)

Truthmatters said:


> Oddball said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



The tradition of helping was not via the force of the federal and state governments. 

I am not going anywhere. How about you try to stop stealing from me?


----------



## Truthmatters (Feb 8, 2013)

how long have we been collecting taxes and fixing things and helping people with the money?


----------



## Truthmatters (Feb 8, 2013)

martybegan said:


> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> > Oddball said:
> ...



The laws of this country are not theft.

You calling them that doesnt make it true.

It just makes you a lair


----------



## martybegan (Feb 8, 2013)

Truthmatters said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > Truthmatters said:
> ...



Some of them sure as hell are.


----------



## Truthmatters (Feb 8, 2013)

Taxation in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Under Article VIII of the Articles of Confederation, the United States federal government did not have the power to tax. All such power lay with the states. The United States Constitution, adopted in 1787, authorized the federal government to lay and collect taxes, but required that some types of tax revenues be given to the states in proportion to population. Tariffs were the principal federal tax through the 1800s.


----------



## Truthmatters (Feb 8, 2013)

you calling taxes theft is spitting in the face of the founders.


stop lapping the pablum off the feet of the likes of Lush Limpballs


----------



## martybegan (Feb 8, 2013)

Truthmatters said:


> you calling taxes theft is spitting in the face of the founders.
> 
> 
> stop lapping the pablum off the feet of the likes of Lush Limpballs



Show me where the founders intended on an income tax.


----------



## Oddball (Feb 8, 2013)

rightwinger said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


"Society" has no claim upon me whatsoever, no matter how you try to rationalize your despotic attitudes.


----------



## Oddball (Feb 8, 2013)

Truthmatters said:


> you calling taxes theft is spitting in the face of the founders.
> 
> 
> stop lapping the pablum off the feet of the likes of Lush Limpballs


STFU, moonbat.

Relatively sane people are conversing here.


----------



## rightwinger (Feb 8, 2013)

martybegan said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > martybegan said:
> ...



It is hard to differentiate who the 51% is and who the 49% is when everyone in society receives free stuff. 

The worst offenders are those in the upper 1% who can afford to buy lobbyists and Congressmen who ensure that legislation will continue to keep the money flowing in


----------



## Truthmatters (Feb 8, 2013)

and there they are hating on democracy.


why the hell not move out of the country you hate everying about democracy


----------



## rightwinger (Feb 8, 2013)

Oddball said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > martybegan said:
> ...



LOL....keep telling yourself that

You're not the boss of me


----------



## Truthmatters (Feb 8, 2013)

Truthmatters said:


> Taxation in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> Under Article VIII of the Articles of Confederation, the United States federal government did not have the power to tax. All such power lay with the states. The United States Constitution, adopted in 1787, authorized the federal government to lay and collect taxes, but required that some types of tax revenues be given to the states in proportion to population. Tariffs were the principal federal tax through the 1800s.



why are you on the right spitting in the founders faces?


----------



## Oddball (Feb 8, 2013)

rightwinger said:


> Oddball said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


So, you got nothing...Figures.


----------



## rightwinger (Feb 8, 2013)

Oddball said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Oddball said:
> ...



Actually, your childish attempts to seperate yourself from society is nothing


----------



## Truthmatters (Feb 8, 2013)

Oddball said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Oddball said:
> ...



and how will you inforce this right you claim?


----------



## Oddball (Feb 8, 2013)

rightwinger said:


> Oddball said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


It also figures that you'd miss that SP started the thread to discuss the overall philosophical point, rather than indulge boorish little punks like you in your "neener-neener" crap, insofar as you've been able to turn American society, such as it is, into a kleptocracy.

Speaking of childish....


----------



## martybegan (Feb 8, 2013)

rightwinger said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



The worst offenders are those who take from the system and give nothing in return. 

I have family members who make a great living off the 1%. Those people spend money on some expensive stuff.


----------



## martybegan (Feb 8, 2013)

Truthmatters said:


> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> > Taxation in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> ...



You do know that Income Taxes, the Tax most people complain about, required a consitutional amendment right? And it was originally found to be unconsitutional prior to the amendment?


----------



## rightwinger (Feb 8, 2013)

martybegan said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > martybegan said:
> ...



Not really

A welfare queen makes a pittance compared to the tax dodges and subsidies afforded to the super wealthy


----------



## Oddball (Feb 8, 2013)

rightwinger said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


The topic of the thread isn't moral equivalence.

Try to keep up.


----------



## Spoonman (Feb 8, 2013)

rightwinger said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



or the 49% who block vote for more free stuff


----------



## rightwinger (Feb 8, 2013)

Spoonman said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > martybegan said:
> ...



Everyone gets free stuff


----------



## martybegan (Feb 8, 2013)

rightwinger said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



But its a money dead end. You get no productivity at it, and you create a government buracracy thats only job is to watch people do nothing. 

When a rich guy spends 20 million to redo his apartment, tons of people make money, and they work to do it.


----------



## rightwinger (Feb 8, 2013)

martybegan said:


> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> > Truthmatters said:
> ...



Income Taxes were not possible at the founding of our country. We lacked a strong middle class and a wage structure.

They did however, provide a steady, predictable stream of revenue for a nation building itself into a super power


----------



## emilynghiem (Feb 16, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> I have been hearing a lot from the sheep lately that we have some sort of obligation to society as a whole.
> 
> Well do we really?
> 
> ...



1. if you have certain political religious or social beliefs, your responsibility is to live by your own principles and fund them yourself and not impose on others to make others responsible if you believe differently. you are right, if we all did this we wouldn't have the problems we see now costing everyone out the kazoo!
2. if you don't like others imposing responsibility for their problems or beliefs on you or others who dissent or have a more effective solution, it is your equal responsibility to try to communicate and resolve such conflicts to the best of your ability to avoid imposition. the "golden rule of reciprocity" is a natural law that affects all people and all relations; it is found in every religion and also applies to enforcing civil laws where this is more effective when people agree to uphold them equally and not abuse laws or power to deprive others.
3. if you find your ways are imposing on others it is your responsibility to accept your share of the costs or efforts to resolve that problem. most conflicts are mutual, and require equal give and take on both sides to succeed in protecting individual interests equally for sake of justice and peace.
4. if all people did this more, then we would not have such conflicts with personal and public responsibility as we have now with people and institutions including church state business nonprofit etc. everyone should share equal responsibility for the part we can do something about and there would not be mass backlog imposing on people in conflict. 
5. my suggestion is to promote training and assistance in conflict resolution, restorative justice and consensus building where taxpayers are rewarded for solving problems of government, not punished for crimes corruption or abuses of others. when people have equal access to education and mentorship we can become more self-governing and equal in rights and responsibility with more direct localized democracy for sustainable economic and community development. thanks!

ps as for govt costing taxpayers more than the services or programs should cost due to abuses or problems, where govt officials or agencies FAIL to fix the problems or conflicts causing waste, unfortunately the buck is passed to the people who can solve the problem. if our tax money or authority is abused we are partially responsible for granting that. it is not enough to say someone else did the abuse; if we pay for a car or give the keys to reckless drivers, the minute we become aware they are causing wrecks and costing damage, we share responsibility for providing the cars or the keys to that irresponsible or reckless driver. political parties formed around each case of reckless waste by the govt or corporate abuse would be the perfect structure to organize advocates and resources around reforms and solutions; we just need to delegate issues and authority by teams and work together instead of fighting to take over the wheel of the ship while it sinks deeper!


----------



## emilynghiem (Feb 16, 2013)

martybegan said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > martybegan said:
> ...



Well stated Marty! Interestingly, I put together a proposal to set up a church-run school to TEACH and train low-income Vets and church volunteers to develop finance and manage commercial and residential property on the campus grounds, for generating sustainable jobs and revenue to end poverty while funding education and historic preservation. but ppl on the investor side don't get the nonprofit and historic preservation part, and ppl coming from that side don't get corporate development. if you can see how to get both sides on the same page, this is a national historic site we could be saving for vet housing that would be privately developed not relying on welfare.
see Freedmen's Town Historic Churches and Vet Housing I only have 14 signatures on my white house petition linked at the top because very few ppl can see how to combine these things in one solution! any ideas, can you help or suggest how to push this concept?


----------



## Cowman (Feb 16, 2013)

If you don't care for society, why are you in a society?

There are costs to living in a country like ours, and I like to think one of the things that makes this country great is that we have great services available to help members of our society through difficult times.

I think what you'd rather prefer is some random African country.

You make it seem like we're living in a North Korea esque environment here, and it's totally not the case.


----------



## Katzndogz (Feb 16, 2013)

A





mememe said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> > There is no obligation that the individual has to society beyond the social contract of if you leave me alone, I leave you alone.
> ...



Absolutely true.  Which is why this nation is disintegrating.  It has no future.


----------



## Cowman (Feb 16, 2013)

Katzndogz said:


> A
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Then get out. Live out your wretched life elsewhere. This country is going through rough patches, but will be fine.


----------



## Skull Pilot (Feb 16, 2013)

Cowman said:


> If you don't care for society, why are you in a society?



My question has nothng to do with liking or disliking anything.  it was a simple question as to what ones obligations are.



> There are costs to living in a country like ours, and I like to think one of the things that makes this country great is that we have great services available to help members of our society through difficult times


.

If one's on;y obligation to society is to follow the law them one will pay his taxes so what is your point?  I never mentioned taxes or costs of anything.



> I think what you'd rather prefer is some random African country.



Completely unrelated to the question



> You make it seem like we're living in a North Korea esque environment here, and it's totally not the case.



All I did was ask a question all the other subjective crap is of your own making


----------



## boedicca (Feb 16, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...




I'm reminded of this famous Heinlein quote:

_Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire. The former are idealists acting from highest motives for the greatest good of the greatest number. The latter are surely curmudgeons, suspicious and lacking in altruism. But they make better neighbors than the other sort. _


----------



## boedicca (Feb 16, 2013)

martybegan said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...





Easy Peasy:  nowhere.


----------



## boedicca (Feb 16, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> > 4 in 100 human beings are sociopaths.
> ...




Poor daft TMN is of the Obama False Strawman school of thinking.

"On the one hand are those who think we all should do our Fair Share to help The Poor, on the other hand, are those who cook and eat The Poors' babies."


----------



## Quantum Windbag (Feb 16, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> I have been hearing a lot from the sheep lately that we have some sort of obligation to society as a whole.
> 
> Well do we really?
> 
> ...



I do not owe society a damned thing, I fucking paid my debt.


----------



## Katzndogz (Feb 17, 2013)

Cowman said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> > A
> ...



I'm here for the subversion.   Like democrats, attacking from within, but from a different direction.


----------



## rightwinger (Feb 17, 2013)

Quantum Windbag said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > I have been hearing a lot from the sheep lately that we have some sort of obligation to society as a whole.
> ...



Not even close


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Feb 17, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> I have been hearing a lot from the sheep lately that we have some sort of obligation to society as a whole.
> 
> Well do we really?
> 
> ...



Nonsense. 

If you were compelled to pay for the same services to private contractors out of pocket youd be spending a lot more and getting a lot less. 

The services you receive from your local, state, and Federal governments for the pittance of tax you pay affords you the best value for your tax dollars. 

American taxpayers clearly have no idea how good they have it; or how miserable theyd be if the many services they receive were suddenly ended. 

This inane whining about taxes and obligations is a classic example of how intellectually bankrupt conservative dogma is.


----------



## Quantum Windbag (Feb 17, 2013)

rightwinger said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



Wanna bet?


----------



## Quantum Windbag (Feb 17, 2013)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > I have been hearing a lot from the sheep lately that we have some sort of obligation to society as a whole.
> ...



Prove it, provide links to studies and the raw data that backs them up. Or admit you are pulling """""facts""""" out of thin air by ignoring this post.


----------



## RosieS (Feb 17, 2013)

You owe society positive contributions in the way that you can. What you do, positively or negatively, comes back upon you. That is called the Law of Karma.

It is not a hint or suggestion. It is a LAW.

Regards from Rosie


----------



## Skull Pilot (Feb 17, 2013)

RosieS said:


> You owe society positive contributions in the way that you can. What you do, positively or negatively, comes back upon you. That is called the Law of Karma.
> 
> It is not a hint or suggestion. It is a LAW.
> 
> Regards from Rosie



Karma is just mystical bullshit


----------



## Skull Pilot (Feb 17, 2013)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > I have been hearing a lot from the sheep lately that we have some sort of obligation to society as a whole.
> ...



And you can prove that? 


> The services you receive from your local, state, and Federal governments for the pittance of tax you pay affords you the best value for your tax dollars.



What services?  I have a private well and septic so I am responsible for the upkeep and cost of those systems.  I don't have kids so I don't use public schools (if I did have kids I would home school)  What do I get that is worth the almost 60K a year I spend in taxes?




> American taxpayers clearly have no idea how good they have it; or how miserable theyd be if the many services they receive were suddenly ended.



Again what services?  



> This inane whining about taxes and obligations is a classic example of how intellectually bankrupt conservative dogma is.



The OP was not about taxes


----------



## rightwinger (Feb 17, 2013)

Quantum Windbag said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...



Yup


----------



## rightwinger (Feb 17, 2013)

Quantum Windbag said:


> C_Clayton_Jones said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



He is merely stating the obvious


----------



## Quantum Windbag (Feb 17, 2013)

rightwinger said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > C_Clayton_Jones said:
> ...



It is obvious that the Earth is flat, it is also wrong.


----------

