# Navy SEALS...is it worth the hype?



## whitehall

Don't get me wrong or start sending me hate-mail, I think Sailors who endure the training and become Seals are true patriots. It's the SEAL mission I have a problem with. Seals are the evolution of WW2 and later Navy Frogmen or UDT (underwater demolition teams). During WW2 the UDT had a specific mission of gathering intelligence and paving the way for massive Marine amphibious assaults on Japanese held islands. Those days are gone. Today's Seals are a unit with a very limited mission. I rely on Marcus Luttrell's best seller "Lone Survivor" for my information on Seal training. The book is a remarkable account of survival and endurance but the mission the book was based on was a total failure. In the book  Luttrell questions why Seals are on patrol at 10,000 ft in the Afghan mountains. Good question. Seals are trained  to paddle rubber boats to the point of exhaustion and beyond and to withstand hypothermia. Another section of Luttrell's book says that Seals refused to be billeted with any other Military branch. The lame excuse for that little bit of arrogance is that they might blurt out some secret in their sleep. The elitism and hype is not healthy in today's Military. Seals are used on Recon missions because there is not much else for them to do. There is no shortage of Marine Recon or Ranger or Special Forces personnel. As a matter of fact a Ranger patrol rescued what was left of Luttrell's Seal team.


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## Quantum Windbag

You really have no idea what SEALS are trained for. The mission has changed a lot since WWII, and all Spec Ops fall under a single unified command.


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## SFC Ollie

I refuse to say anything bad about any Special Forces. they all are the best that we have to offer. I've never known a SEAL but I've known many Green Beret. My salute to them all. And BTW contrary to popular belief, Rangers are not really Special Forces, I've known many of them too.


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## whitehall

According to Luttrell Seals keep their own identity regardless of the overall commander. SEALS are trained like no other Military unit. Their basic training is specific for water related missions and it it is outmoded. Why go through the expense of training Sailors to paddle rubber boats while unconcious while they wash out otherwise qualified personnel who can't endure extreme hypothermia?


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## Toome

With no offense intended to the OP, there are a lot of retards on the Pentagon staff who also have the same attitude.  Fact is that the United States needs a robust special operations capability, and the SEALs are an integral part of that multi-dimensional, multi-faceted, multi-tiered capability.

In my view, it's the conventional military that is outdated.  We will very rarely see the classic battlefield confrontation.  And even when we do, such as the invasion of Iraq, special operations will have played a key role that paved the way.  It's the missions after the invasion of Iraq that will characterize future warfare.  We learned that lesson a very long time ago in a shithole called Vietnam.

Now I'm not saying that special operations can do it all.  I'm just saying that it's the conventional military that finds itself having to adjust its tactics to nation-building, urban operations, peace-keeping and counterinsurgency:  classic missions performed by special operations forces.  Even so, nothing makes for a good day at the office than the ability to pick up the talkie-walkie and rain steel on a bunch of bad guys with the wrong attitudes.

One Team One Fight.


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## SFC Ollie

Toome said:


> With no offense intended to the OP, there are a lot of retards on the Pentagon staff who also have the same attitude.  Fact is that the United States needs a robust special operations capability, and the SEALs are an integral part of that multi-dimensional, multi-faceted, multi-tiered capability.
> 
> In my view, it's the conventional military that is outdated.  We will very rarely see the classic battlefield confrontation.  And even when we do, such as the invasion of Iraq, special operations will have played a key role that paved the way.  It's the missions after the invasion of Iraq that will characterize future warfare.  We learned that lesson a very long time ago in a shithole called Vietnam.
> 
> Now I'm not saying that special operations can do it all.  I'm just saying that it's the conventional military that finds itself having to adjust its tactics to nation-building, urban operations, peace-keeping and counterinsurgency:  classic missions performed by special operations forces.  Even so, nothing makes for a good day at the office than the ability to pick up the talkie-walkie and rain steel on a bunch of bad guys with the wrong attitudes.
> 
> One Team One Fight.



The Signal corps is already ahead of you. We started supplying the front line guys with the military's version of a cell phone before they headed into Desert Shield.


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## Trajan

whitehall said:


> Don't get me wrong or start sending me hate-mail, I think Sailors who endure the training and become Seals are true patriots. It's the SEAL mission I have a problem with. Seals are the evolution of WW2 and later Navy Frogmen or UDT (underwater demolition teams). During WW2 the UDT had a specific mission of gathering intelligence and paving the way for massive Marine amphibious assaults on Japanese held islands. Those days are gone. Today's Seals are a unit with a very limited mission. I rely on Marcus Luttrell's best seller "Lone Survivor" for my information on Seal training. The book is a remarkable account of survival and endurance but the mission the book was based on was a total failure. In the book  Luttrell questions why Seals are on patrol at 10,000 ft in the Afghan mountains. Good question. Seals are trained  to paddle rubber boats to the point of exhaustion and beyond and to withstand hypothermia. Another section of Luttrell's book says that Seals refused to be billeted with any other Military branch. The lame excuse for that little bit of arrogance is that they might blurt out some secret in their sleep. The elitism and hype is not healthy in today's Military. Seals are used on Recon missions because there is not much else for them to do. There is no shortage of Marine Recon or Ranger or Special Forces personnel. As a matter of fact a Ranger patrol rescued what was left of Luttrell's Seal team.







> The elitism and hype is not healthy in today's Military.



actually it does have a place. it helps recruitment, it helps Esprit de corps and its well earned. 

AIT is as far from BUDs as the back side of the moon is to us.


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## Quantum Windbag

whitehall said:


> According to Luttrell Seals keep their own identity regardless of the overall commander. SEALS are trained like no other Military unit. Their basic training is specific for water related missions and it it is outmoded. Why go through the expense of training Sailors to paddle rubber boats while unconcious while they wash out otherwise qualified personnel who can't endure extreme hypothermia?



Because they know they can do that that, and they know their exact physical limits. That means they know what they can, and cannot, do.


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## whitehall

When legendary coach Paul "bear" Bryant took over the football program in Texas A&M in the early 1950's he decided the players were weak and needed toughening up so he took the squad out to a place called Junction and worked the players in ways that might be considered criminal today. By the time he was finished he washed out many team members and had the toughest players ever to wear the A&M uniform. They went on to lose every game but one the next season. Seals wash out a lot of good and skilled men in order to come up with Sailors who are able to paddle a rubber boat while unconcious. What's the point? To come up with a handful of elitist hypothermia resistant Sailors. Espirit is good, elitism is dangerous.


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## SFC Ollie

Tell you what, you have a problem with the SEALS? Go tell one of them to their face. The rest of us will simply give them the respect they deserve.


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## whitehall

SFC Ollie said:


> Tell you what, you have a problem with the SEALS? Go tell one of them to their face. The rest of us will simply give them the respect they deserve.



Yeah yeah yeah Ollie. Challenge them to a fight. That will substitute for intelligent discussion.


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## High_Gravity

I say we can never have enough SEALS, Delta, Rangers etc.


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## High_Gravity

Toome said:


> With no offense intended to the OP, there are a lot of retards on the Pentagon staff who also have the same attitude.  Fact is that the United States needs a robust special operations capability, and the SEALs are an integral part of that multi-dimensional, multi-faceted, multi-tiered capability.
> 
> In my view, it's the conventional military that is outdated.  We will very rarely see the classic battlefield confrontation.  And even when we do, such as the invasion of Iraq, special operations will have played a key role that paved the way.  It's the missions after the invasion of Iraq that will characterize future warfare.  We learned that lesson a very long time ago in a shithole called Vietnam.
> 
> Now I'm not saying that special operations can do it all.  I'm just saying that it's the conventional military that finds itself having to adjust its tactics to nation-building, urban operations, peace-keeping and counterinsurgency:  classic missions performed by special operations forces.  Even so, nothing makes for a good day at the office than the ability to pick up the talkie-walkie and rain steel on a bunch of bad guys with the wrong attitudes.
> 
> One Team One Fight.



There may not have been a convetional Military battle in a long time but I still want to keep that conventional force ready, not every war is going to be a guerilla war like in Iraq or Afghanistan.


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## SFC Ollie

whitehall said:


> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tell you what, you have a problem with the SEALS? Go tell one of them to their face. The rest of us will simply give them the respect they deserve.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah yeah yeah Ollie. Challenge them to a fight. That will substitute for intelligent discussion.
Click to expand...


I did not say to challenge them to a fight. I said to tell them your problem with them. Chances are you will walk away wondering why you feel so stupid. There is a lot more to SF than physical strength.


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## whitehall

SEALS are stuck in an antiquated concept. They are Sailors so the training is geared toward missions related to the Navy. The problem is that the missions are no longer valid. Most Sailors wash out of Seal training because they cannot adjust to constant hypothermic conditions. Some say that tolerance to hypothermia is genetic and other theories suggest that a certain body type is tolerant of severe cold. Some say that constant exposure to hypothermia and lack of sleep can cause permanent mental disorders. Anyway the Seals wash out people with valuable mental and physical skills and keep people who can stand longer imersion in cold water.


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## High_Gravity

whitehall said:


> SEALS are stuck in an antiquated concept. They are Sailors so the training is geared toward missions related to the Navy. The problem is that the missions are no longer valid. Most Sailors wash out of Seal training because they cannot adjust to constant hypothermic conditions. Some say that tolerance to hypothermia is genetic and other theories suggest that a certain body type is tolerant of severe cold. Some say that constant exposure to hypothermia and lack of sleep can cause permanent mental disorders. Anyway the Seals wash out people with valuable mental and physical skills and keep people who can stand longer imersion in cold water.



The Navy Seals are doing alot of behind the scenes work in Afghanistan taking out top and mid level Taliban Commanders, you are not going to see everything that SEALS do be put on Fox News or CNN. You really have no understanding about what the SEALS do.


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## SFC Ollie

> The Army's grueling Special Forces Assessment and Selection (SFAS) has a historical attrition rate that hovers around 70 percent--with another 10-15 percent lost in the ensuing Special Forces Qualification Course. This is not attrition for attrition's sake; in fact, Special Forces candidates are not harassed, hazed, or otherwise coerced into quitting at any time. Rather, the physical and mental rigors of the training cull out those who do not possess the necessary attributes for service in SOF. The end result is a soldier who is tough, self-reliant, innovative, and flexible. We have witnessed the true value of this process in recent operations around the world SOF has proven to be a decisive element and the force of choice in our struggle against terrorism.



Couldn't find the drop out rates for SEALS, But my guess is it's about the same.


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## Toome

whitehall said:


> SEALS are stuck in an antiquated concept. They are Sailors so the training is geared toward missions related to the Navy. The problem is that the missions are no longer valid. Most Sailors wash out of Seal training because they cannot adjust to constant hypothermic conditions. Some say that tolerance to hypothermia is genetic and other theories suggest that a certain body type is tolerant of severe cold. Some say that constant exposure to hypothermia and lack of sleep can cause permanent mental disorders. Anyway the Seals wash out people with valuable mental and physical skills and keep people who can stand longer imersion in cold water.



Pretty difficult to hold any meaningful discussion without knowing your experience level.  Taking a wild SWAG here, but it seems that you're basing a lot of your views on whatever you've been able to read from open source materials.  And that's fair enough.

What SFC Ollie, High Gravity, Trajan, Quantum Windbag and others are saying, based on their backgrounds and first hand experiences, is that there is a lot more to being a SEAL than standing in cold water or going without sleep.  And none of us are going to hint or reveal anything classified to satisfy your curiosity.  Suffice it to say that if you want to believe that SEALs are antiquated, old-fashioned and not needed, go right ahead.  No one is trying to change your mind.

However, you should at least acknowledge that there is a classified side to what the SEALs do.  And if someone who has had some exposure to the Dark Side says that there's a lot more than meets the eye, then you should at least consider that there's more to it than just tradition, testosterone and bravado when it comes to the SEALs and the rest of the special ops community.

Whether you want to believe this or not, the military is a highly efficient institution.  Yeah, we all make our jokes about some of the silly things we've seen, but combat has no forgiveness for stupidity.  Combat forces the military to be successful.  If the SEALs were truly outdated and unnecessary, the Pentagon would have phased them out a long time ago.


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## High_Gravity

Toome said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> SEALS are stuck in an antiquated concept. They are Sailors so the training is geared toward missions related to the Navy. The problem is that the missions are no longer valid. Most Sailors wash out of Seal training because they cannot adjust to constant hypothermic conditions. Some say that tolerance to hypothermia is genetic and other theories suggest that a certain body type is tolerant of severe cold. Some say that constant exposure to hypothermia and lack of sleep can cause permanent mental disorders. Anyway the Seals wash out people with valuable mental and physical skills and keep people who can stand longer imersion in cold water.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty difficult to hold any meaningful discussion without knowing your experience level.  Taking a wild SWAG here, but it seems that you're basing a lot of your views on whatever you've been able to read from open source materials.  And that's fair enough.
> 
> What SFC Ollie, High Gravity, Trajan, Quantum Windbag and others are saying, based on their backgrounds and first hand experiences, is that there is a lot more to being a SEAL than standing in cold water or going without sleep.  And none of us are going to hint or reveal anything classified to satisfy your curiosity.  Suffice it to say that if you want to believe that SEALs are antiquated, old-fashioned and not needed, go right ahead.  No one is trying to change your mind.
> 
> However, you should at least acknowledge that there is a classified side to what the SEALs do.  And if someone who has had some exposure to the Dark Side says that there's a lot more than meets the eye, then you should at least consider that there's more to it than just tradition, testosterone and bravado when it comes to the SEALs and the rest of the special ops community.
> 
> Whether you want to believe this or not, the military is a highly efficient institution.  Yeah, we all make our jokes about some of the silly things we've seen, but combat has no forgiveness for stupidity.  Combat forces the military to be successful.  If the SEALs were truly outdated and unnecessary, the Pentagon would have phased them out a long time ago.
Click to expand...



Thank you, all this guy keeps talking about is the SEALS falling asleep in water and getting hypothermia.


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## SFC Ollie

High_Gravity said:


> Toome said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> SEALS are stuck in an antiquated concept. They are Sailors so the training is geared toward missions related to the Navy. The problem is that the missions are no longer valid. Most Sailors wash out of Seal training because they cannot adjust to constant hypothermic conditions. Some say that tolerance to hypothermia is genetic and other theories suggest that a certain body type is tolerant of severe cold. Some say that constant exposure to hypothermia and lack of sleep can cause permanent mental disorders. Anyway the Seals wash out people with valuable mental and physical skills and keep people who can stand longer imersion in cold water.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty difficult to hold any meaningful discussion without knowing your experience level.  Taking a wild SWAG here, but it seems that you're basing a lot of your views on whatever you've been able to read from open source materials.  And that's fair enough.
> 
> What SFC Ollie, High Gravity, Trajan, Quantum Windbag and others are saying, based on their backgrounds and first hand experiences, is that there is a lot more to being a SEAL than standing in cold water or going without sleep.  And none of us are going to hint or reveal anything classified to satisfy your curiosity.  Suffice it to say that if you want to believe that SEALs are antiquated, old-fashioned and not needed, go right ahead.  No one is trying to change your mind.
> 
> However, you should at least acknowledge that there is a classified side to what the SEALs do.  And if someone who has had some exposure to the Dark Side says that there's a lot more than meets the eye, then you should at least consider that there's more to it than just tradition, testosterone and bravado when it comes to the SEALs and the rest of the special ops community.
> 
> Whether you want to believe this or not, the military is a highly efficient institution.  Yeah, we all make our jokes about some of the silly things we've seen, but combat has no forgiveness for stupidity.  Combat forces the military to be successful.  If the SEALs were truly outdated and unnecessary, the Pentagon would have phased them out a long time ago.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you, all this guy keeps talking about is the SEALS falling asleep in water and getting hypothermia.
Click to expand...


And that's probably some footnote in a book he attempted to read. Or out of some movie.


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## High_Gravity

SFC Ollie said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toome said:
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty difficult to hold any meaningful discussion without knowing your experience level.  Taking a wild SWAG here, but it seems that you're basing a lot of your views on whatever you've been able to read from open source materials.  And that's fair enough.
> 
> What SFC Ollie, High Gravity, Trajan, Quantum Windbag and others are saying, based on their backgrounds and first hand experiences, is that there is a lot more to being a SEAL than standing in cold water or going without sleep.  And none of us are going to hint or reveal anything classified to satisfy your curiosity.  Suffice it to say that if you want to believe that SEALs are antiquated, old-fashioned and not needed, go right ahead.  No one is trying to change your mind.
> 
> However, you should at least acknowledge that there is a classified side to what the SEALs do.  And if someone who has had some exposure to the Dark Side says that there's a lot more than meets the eye, then you should at least consider that there's more to it than just tradition, testosterone and bravado when it comes to the SEALs and the rest of the special ops community.
> 
> Whether you want to believe this or not, the military is a highly efficient institution.  Yeah, we all make our jokes about some of the silly things we've seen, but combat has no forgiveness for stupidity.  Combat forces the military to be successful.  If the SEALs were truly outdated and unnecessary, the Pentagon would have phased them out a long time ago.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you, all this guy keeps talking about is the SEALS falling asleep in water and getting hypothermia.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And that's probably some footnote in a book he attempted to read. Or out of some movie.
Click to expand...


He probably watched the Navy Seals training documentary on the Military channel.


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## whitehall

High_Gravity said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> SEALS are stuck in an antiquated concept. They are Sailors so the training is geared toward missions related to the Navy. The problem is that the missions are no longer valid. Most Sailors wash out of Seal training because they cannot adjust to constant hypothermic conditions. Some say that tolerance to hypothermia is genetic and other theories suggest that a certain body type is tolerant of severe cold. Some say that constant exposure to hypothermia and lack of sleep can cause permanent mental disorders. Anyway the Seals wash out people with valuable mental and physical skills and keep people who can stand longer imersion in cold water.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Navy Seals are doing alot of behind the scenes work in Afghanistan taking out top and mid level Taliban Commanders, you are not going to see everything that SEALS do be put on Fox News or CNN. You really have no understanding about what the SEALS do.
Click to expand...



I read a book. What do you base your opinion on? Wishful thinking? Luttrell's book illustrated what Seals are doing in Afghanistan. The Frogmen find themselves on patrol at 10,000 Ft. The basis of Luttrell's book is the patrol which was supposed to track the Taliban and became surrounded by the people they were supposed to recon. The patrol was maneuvered by the Taliban into an indefensible position and they were cut to pieces. The Seals who jumped on a helicopter to rescue the patrol landed in an ambush. The Seals were blown up by an RPG when they opened the door. Bad recon, bad rescue and bad planning. Seals have no business in Afghanistan except to protect the ships that support the mission. Marine Recon and Army Special Forces and Rangers are quite able to handle the mission without elitist Seals getting in the way.


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## SFC Ollie

whitehall said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> SEALS are stuck in an antiquated concept. They are Sailors so the training is geared toward missions related to the Navy. The problem is that the missions are no longer valid. Most Sailors wash out of Seal training because they cannot adjust to constant hypothermic conditions. Some say that tolerance to hypothermia is genetic and other theories suggest that a certain body type is tolerant of severe cold. Some say that constant exposure to hypothermia and lack of sleep can cause permanent mental disorders. Anyway the Seals wash out people with valuable mental and physical skills and keep people who can stand longer imersion in cold water.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Navy Seals are doing alot of behind the scenes work in Afghanistan taking out top and mid level Taliban Commanders, you are not going to see everything that SEALS do be put on Fox News or CNN. You really have no understanding about what the SEALS do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I read a book. What do you base your opinion on? Wishful thinking? Luttrell's book illustrated what Seals are doing in Afghanistan. The Frogmen find themselves on patrol at 10,000 Ft. The basis of Luttrell's book is the patrol which was supposed to track the Taliban and became surrounded by the people they were supposed to recon. The patrol was maneuvered by the Taliban into an indefensible position and they were cut to pieces. The Seals who jumped on a helicopter to rescue the patrol landed in an ambush. The Seals were blown up by an RPG when they opened the door. Bad recon, bad rescue and bad planning. Seals have no business in Afghanistan except to protect the ships that support the mission. Marine Recon and Army Special Forces and Rangers are quite able to handle the mission without elitist Seals getting in the way.
Click to expand...


So you read a book about one failed mission. And now you are an expert.
 I suggest you read a few dozen books about successful missions. Remember Delta force? Their first mission was also a dismal failure.


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## Cain

whitehall said:


> Seals have no business in Afghanistan except to protect the ships that support the mission. Marine Recon and Army Special Forces and Rangers are quite able to handle the mission without elitist Seals getting in the way.



I'll go tell my local VA guy (ex-Navy Seal) what you think. I am sure he can respond in return .

You have NO BUSINESS telling people what they should and should NOT be doing. You know what? Don't even attempt to do something in the military if you think what YOU think is going to work out great.

You know what's funny? It doesn't matter what I think in the next 6 years. You know why? I signed a contract, and I am stuck in it. Guess what? That's fine by me, I didn't sign up with the intent to change the military, I went in and will always have, the intent to do more for myself and my community (the US of A). Yea, sure, I could tell my recruiter what I think Security Force, should be doing, but guess what? That will get me either: A) Told to shut up. or B) Told to shut up, and run a few more miles after everyone is done. 

And for your information, some of these 'wishful' thinkers have served before, and you know what? I think that earns them a little respect and maybe just a little bit of credibility, so want to know what I have to say to you? 


"
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




"


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## SFC Ollie

Cain said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seals have no business in Afghanistan except to protect the ships that support the mission. Marine Recon and Army Special Forces and Rangers are quite able to handle the mission without elitist Seals getting in the way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll go tell my local VA guy (ex-Navy Seal) what you think. I am sure he can respond in return .
> 
> You have NO BUSINESS telling people what they should and should NOT be doing. You know what? Don't even attempt to do something in the military if you think what YOU think is going to work out great.
> 
> You know what's funny? It doesn't matter what I think in the next 6 years. You know why? I signed a contract, and I am stuck in it. Guess what? That's fine by me, I didn't sign up with the intent to change the military, I went in and will always have, the intent to do more for myself and my community (the US of A). Yea, sure, I could tell my recruiter what I think Security Force, should be doing, but guess what? That will get me either: A) Told to shut up. or B) Told to shut up, and run a few more miles after everyone is done.
> 
> And for your information, some of these 'wishful' thinkers have served before, and you know what? I think that earns them a little respect and maybe just a little bit of credibility, so want to know what I have to say to you?
> 
> 
> "
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "
Click to expand...


I'm hoping that he has Figured out that SFC is not just a name i chose for this board.


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## Cain

SFC Ollie said:


> Cain said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seals have no business in Afghanistan except to protect the ships that support the mission. Marine Recon and Army Special Forces and Rangers are quite able to handle the mission without elitist Seals getting in the way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll go tell my local VA guy (ex-Navy Seal) what you think. I am sure he can respond in return .
> 
> You have NO BUSINESS telling people what they should and should NOT be doing. You know what? Don't even attempt to do something in the military if you think what YOU think is going to work out great.
> 
> You know what's funny? It doesn't matter what I think in the next 6 years. You know why? I signed a contract, and I am stuck in it. Guess what? That's fine by me, I didn't sign up with the intent to change the military, I went in and will always have, the intent to do more for myself and my community (the US of A). Yea, sure, I could tell my recruiter what I think Security Force, should be doing, but guess what? That will get me either: A) Told to shut up. or B) Told to shut up, and run a few more miles after everyone is done.
> 
> And for your information, some of these 'wishful' thinkers have served before, and you know what? I think that earns them a little respect and maybe just a little bit of credibility, so want to know what I have to say to you?
> 
> 
> "
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm hoping that he has Figured out that SFC is not just a name i chose for this board.
Click to expand...


I wouldn't put too much hope on that. I just hope he doesn't try to go in with that attitude. He should be more worried about Basic then Seal Training, but if he is just 'critiquing' people, then I advise he pick a group that isn't considered one of the Elite forces in the world.


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## whitehall

Toome said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> SEALS are stuck in an antiquated concept. They are Sailors so the training is geared toward missions related to the Navy. The problem is that the missions are no longer valid. Most Sailors wash out of Seal training because they cannot adjust to constant hypothermic conditions. Some say that tolerance to hypothermia is genetic and other theories suggest that a certain body type is tolerant of severe cold. Some say that constant exposure to hypothermia and lack of sleep can cause permanent mental disorders. Anyway the Seals wash out people with valuable mental and physical skills and keep people who can stand longer imersion in cold water.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty difficult to hold any meaningful discussion without knowing your experience level.  Taking a wild SWAG here, but it seems that you're basing a lot of your views on whatever you've been able to read from open source materials.  And that's fair enough.
> 
> What SFC Ollie, High Gravity, Trajan, Quantum Windbag and others are saying, based on their backgrounds and first hand experiences, is that there is a lot more to being a SEAL than standing in cold water or going without sleep.  And none of us are going to hint or reveal anything classified to satisfy your curiosity.  Suffice it to say that if you want to believe that SEALs are antiquated, old-fashioned and not needed, go right ahead.  No one is trying to change your mind.
> 
> However, you should at least acknowledge that there is a classified side to what the SEALs do.  And if someone who has had some exposure to the Dark Side says that there's a lot more than meets the eye, then you should at least consider that there's more to it than just tradition, testosterone and bravado when it comes to the SEALs and the rest of the special ops community.
> 
> Whether you want to believe this or not, the military is a highly efficient institution.  Yeah, we all make our jokes about some of the silly things we've seen, but combat has no forgiveness for stupidity.  Combat forces the military to be successful.  If the SEALs were truly outdated and unnecessary, the Pentagon would have phased them out a long time ago.
Click to expand...


My source material is the recent biography of a Navy Seal and my own life experiences.  We all know that the Pentagon is ....well....the Pentagon. SEALS have created a niche in the Military and the Pentagon ain't about to go against a pop-culture legend regardless of it's effectiveness or the lack of it. Let's review the painfull facts. Luttrell says that SEALS refuse to be billited with other (inferior trained?) Troops. It's a quote. Those BUD graduates who mastered hypothermia go on to Army training and specific Spec-Ops schools that they might be qualified for but the Army and the Marines have a high level of really qualified candidates and the SEALS have a limited source of people who managed to withstand cold showers and paddling rubber boats until unconscious. Now we have SEAL units who think they are the most elite Troops in the Military but they are led by BUD graduates who can hold their breath for a really long time and tolerate cold showers but might not stack up to Army specialist skills. Case in point the SEAL Lt who jumped on a chopper to rescue Luttrell's Seal team and landed in front of an RPG.


----------



## SFC Ollie

Go away child, you know so very little about what you speak.


----------



## whitehall

SFC Ollie said:


> Go away child, you know so very little about what you speak.



"Go away"? Don't make me comment about phonies who cut and paste Military rank to reinforce their lack of intelligence.


----------



## SFC Ollie

whitehall said:


> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Go away child, you know so very little about what you speak.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Go away"? Don't make me comment about phonies who cut and paste Military rank to reinforce their lack of intelligence.
Click to expand...


LOL go right ahead. I believe anyone who has been around here for a while can vouch for my service. Even met one member here for coffee last month. So if you want to attack my service you go for it. You won't be the first or last. 

Yes I wear my rank because I earned it. And yes I'm proud of it.


----------



## Cain

whitehall said:


> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Go away child, you know so very little about what you speak.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Go away"? Don't make me comment about phonies who cut and paste Military rank to reinforce their lack of intelligence.
Click to expand...


Your right. We should trust a theory based on a guy who believes he is some sort of intellect on the Navy Seals because he has seen a report...

Honestly, I hope you leave, your pretty annoying, you insult other members, and then call one of them a liar on his military status.

Best of luck in future ventures.


----------



## xotoxi

whitehall said:


> Don't get me wrong or start sending me hate-mail, I think Sailors who endure the training and become Seals are true patriots.



And do you think that those who do not become Seals are less than true patriots?


----------



## whitehall

xotoxi said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't get me wrong or start sending me hate-mail, I think Sailors who endure the training and become Seals are true patriots.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And do you think that those who do not become Seals are less than true patriots?
Click to expand...


You gotta laugh sometimes. What's your claim to true patriotism toxic? Do you have any actual experience in the field or is the question strictly based on emotion?


----------



## High_Gravity

whitehall said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> SEALS are stuck in an antiquated concept. They are Sailors so the training is geared toward missions related to the Navy. The problem is that the missions are no longer valid. Most Sailors wash out of Seal training because they cannot adjust to constant hypothermic conditions. Some say that tolerance to hypothermia is genetic and other theories suggest that a certain body type is tolerant of severe cold. Some say that constant exposure to hypothermia and lack of sleep can cause permanent mental disorders. Anyway the Seals wash out people with valuable mental and physical skills and keep people who can stand longer imersion in cold water.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Navy Seals are doing alot of behind the scenes work in Afghanistan taking out top and mid level Taliban Commanders, you are not going to see everything that SEALS do be put on Fox News or CNN. You really have no understanding about what the SEALS do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I read a book. What do you base your opinion on? Wishful thinking? Luttrell's book illustrated what Seals are doing in Afghanistan. The Frogmen find themselves on patrol at 10,000 Ft. The basis of Luttrell's book is the patrol which was supposed to track the Taliban and became surrounded by the people they were supposed to recon. The patrol was maneuvered by the Taliban into an indefensible position and they were cut to pieces. The Seals who jumped on a helicopter to rescue the patrol landed in an ambush. The Seals were blown up by an RPG when they opened the door. Bad recon, bad rescue and bad planning. Seals have no business in Afghanistan except to protect the ships that support the mission. Marine Recon and Army Special Forces and Rangers are quite able to handle the mission without elitist Seals getting in the way.
Click to expand...


Your right, the Military should just get rid of the SEALS and send you over there to deal with the Taliban, maybe you can annoy them to death , like what your doing to us right now.


----------



## High_Gravity

whitehall said:


> Toome said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> SEALS are stuck in an antiquated concept. They are Sailors so the training is geared toward missions related to the Navy. The problem is that the missions are no longer valid. Most Sailors wash out of Seal training because they cannot adjust to constant hypothermic conditions. Some say that tolerance to hypothermia is genetic and other theories suggest that a certain body type is tolerant of severe cold. Some say that constant exposure to hypothermia and lack of sleep can cause permanent mental disorders. Anyway the Seals wash out people with valuable mental and physical skills and keep people who can stand longer imersion in cold water.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty difficult to hold any meaningful discussion without knowing your experience level.  Taking a wild SWAG here, but it seems that you're basing a lot of your views on whatever you've been able to read from open source materials.  And that's fair enough.
> 
> What SFC Ollie, High Gravity, Trajan, Quantum Windbag and others are saying, based on their backgrounds and first hand experiences, is that there is a lot more to being a SEAL than standing in cold water or going without sleep.  And none of us are going to hint or reveal anything classified to satisfy your curiosity.  Suffice it to say that if you want to believe that SEALs are antiquated, old-fashioned and not needed, go right ahead.  No one is trying to change your mind.
> 
> However, you should at least acknowledge that there is a classified side to what the SEALs do.  And if someone who has had some exposure to the Dark Side says that there's a lot more than meets the eye, then you should at least consider that there's more to it than just tradition, testosterone and bravado when it comes to the SEALs and the rest of the special ops community.
> 
> Whether you want to believe this or not, the military is a highly efficient institution.  Yeah, we all make our jokes about some of the silly things we've seen, but combat has no forgiveness for stupidity.  Combat forces the military to be successful.  If the SEALs were truly outdated and unnecessary, the Pentagon would have phased them out a long time ago.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My source material is the recent biography of a Navy Seal and my own life experiences.  We all know that the Pentagon is ....well....the Pentagon. SEALS have created a niche in the Military and the Pentagon ain't about to go against a pop-culture legend regardless of it's effectiveness or the lack of it. Let's review the painfull facts. Luttrell says that SEALS refuse to be billited with other (inferior trained?) Troops. It's a quote. Those BUD graduates who mastered hypothermia go on to Army training and specific Spec-Ops schools that they might be qualified for but the Army and the Marines have a high level of really qualified candidates and the SEALS have a limited source of people who managed to withstand cold showers and paddling rubber boats until unconscious. Now we have SEAL units who think they are the most elite Troops in the Military but they are led by BUD graduates who can hold their breath for a really long time and tolerate cold showers but might not stack up to Army specialist skills. Case in point the SEAL Lt who jumped on a chopper to rescue Luttrell's Seal team and landed in front of an RPG.
Click to expand...


LMAO the Navy SEALS are pop culture now? child you are lost.


----------



## Two Thumbs

The SEALS don't have much to do in land locked Afganistan.  But anywhere there is water, they have more than anyone else to do.

And I'll remind you that is was a SEAL sniper that killed those pirates on the open ocean.


----------



## artk

In the late '80's, I went through the amphibious assault course at Coronado. I got to see the new SEAL recruits going through their hell week. That looked like some very intense training. It definitely takes a special breed to make it through the training. Nothing but respect for them.


----------



## bigrebnc1775

whitehall said:


> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tell you what, you have a problem with the SEALS? Go tell one of them to their face. The rest of us will simply give them the respect they deserve.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah yeah yeah Ollie. Challenge them to a fight. That will substitute for intelligent discussion.
Click to expand...


either way you would lose


----------



## asterism

whitehall said:


> SEALS are stuck in an antiquated concept. They are Sailors so the training is geared toward missions related to the Navy. The problem is that the missions are no longer valid. Most Sailors wash out of Seal training because they cannot adjust to constant hypothermic conditions. Some say that tolerance to hypothermia is genetic and other theories suggest that a certain body type is tolerant of severe cold. Some say that constant exposure to hypothermia and lack of sleep can cause permanent mental disorders. Anyway the Seals wash out people with valuable mental and physical skills and keep people who can stand longer imersion in cold water.



Delta washes out lots of people who would be just fine in the water but aren't so good in the frozen mountains, Recon washes out lots of people who aren't particularly regimented in the "Infantry style" of command and that's almost never used on actual missions.  What's your point, that it's not fair to the washouts?  Life isn't fair.  Having a bias in favor of a certain type of mission that suits a plurality of the needs of the force being augmented is perfectly acceptable, as is diversity in missions after the unit is developed.

A SEAL washout who has the only downfall of not being amazingly tolerant to hypothermia can always try a lateral move to the Army and try the Q Course.


----------



## asterism

whitehall said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> SEALS are stuck in an antiquated concept. They are Sailors so the training is geared toward missions related to the Navy. The problem is that the missions are no longer valid. Most Sailors wash out of Seal training because they cannot adjust to constant hypothermic conditions. Some say that tolerance to hypothermia is genetic and other theories suggest that a certain body type is tolerant of severe cold. Some say that constant exposure to hypothermia and lack of sleep can cause permanent mental disorders. Anyway the Seals wash out people with valuable mental and physical skills and keep people who can stand longer imersion in cold water.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Navy Seals are doing alot of behind the scenes work in Afghanistan taking out top and mid level Taliban Commanders, you are not going to see everything that SEALS do be put on Fox News or CNN. You really have no understanding about what the SEALS do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I read a book. What do you base your opinion on? Wishful thinking? Luttrell's book illustrated what Seals are doing in Afghanistan. The Frogmen find themselves on patrol at 10,000 Ft. The basis of Luttrell's book is the patrol which was supposed to track the Taliban and became surrounded by the people they were supposed to recon. The patrol was maneuvered by the Taliban into an indefensible position and they were cut to pieces. The Seals who jumped on a helicopter to rescue the patrol landed in an ambush. The Seals were blown up by an RPG when they opened the door. Bad recon, bad rescue and bad planning. Seals have no business in Afghanistan except to protect the ships that support the mission. Marine Recon and Army Special Forces and Rangers are quite able to handle the mission without elitist Seals getting in the way.
Click to expand...


Wait wait wait - - - 

What reason do you have to suggest that the SEALS should not be in a mountain range but Recon should?  There's nothing amphibious at 10,000 ft.


----------



## asterism

Cain said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seals have no business in Afghanistan except to protect the ships that support the mission. Marine Recon and Army Special Forces and Rangers are quite able to handle the mission without elitist Seals getting in the way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll go tell my local VA guy (ex-Navy Seal) what you think. I am sure he can respond in return .
> 
> You have NO BUSINESS telling people what they should and should NOT be doing. You know what? Don't even attempt to do something in the military if you think what YOU think is going to work out great.
> 
> You know what's funny? It doesn't matter what I think in the next 6 years. You know why? I signed a contract, and I am stuck in it. Guess what? That's fine by me, I didn't sign up with the intent to change the military, I went in and will always have, the intent to do more for myself and my community (the US of A). Yea, sure, I could tell my recruiter what I think Security Force, should be doing, but guess what? That will get me either: A) Told to shut up. or B) Told to shut up, and *run a few more miles* after everyone is done.
> 
> And for your information, some of these 'wishful' thinkers have served before, and you know what? I think that earns them a little respect and maybe just a little bit of credibility, so want to know what I have to say to you?
> 
> 
> "
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "
Click to expand...


Um, you're going into the Air Force.  Maybe you'll be asked to make some more coffee or run off some more copies instead.


----------



## editec

Empire needs its assassins, folks.

When wetwork (on the dark side) is called for, units like the SEALS come in handy.


----------



## daveman

whitehall said:


> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Go away child, you know so very little about what you speak.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Go away"? Don't make me comment about phonies who cut and paste Military rank to reinforce their lack of intelligence.
Click to expand...

Of course, because it's so much more intelligent to declare a unit superfluous because you read one book about one failed mission.  

SEALs, like all special operators, are like guns...better to have them and not need them than need them and not have them.

Meanwhile, they're gainfully employed, doing things you and I and 99% of humanity aren't capable of.  They're not just sitting in garrison polishing their boots and sharpening their knives.

In the immortal words of Col Jessup, "I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to."


----------



## daveman

whitehall said:


> xotoxi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't get me wrong or start sending me hate-mail, I think Sailors who endure the training and become Seals are true patriots.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And do you think that those who do not become Seals are less than true patriots?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You gotta laugh sometimes. What's your claim to true patriotism toxic? Do you have any actual experience in the field or is the question strictly based on emotion?
Click to expand...

You sound fat.


----------



## bigrebnc1775

asterism said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> SEALS are stuck in an antiquated concept. They are Sailors so the training is geared toward missions related to the Navy. The problem is that the missions are no longer valid. Most Sailors wash out of Seal training because they cannot adjust to constant hypothermic conditions. Some say that tolerance to hypothermia is genetic and other theories suggest that a certain body type is tolerant of severe cold. Some say that constant exposure to hypothermia and lack of sleep can cause permanent mental disorders. Anyway the Seals wash out people with valuable mental and physical skills and keep people who can stand longer imersion in cold water.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Delta washes out lots of people who would be just fine in the water but aren't so good in the frozen mountains, Recon washes out lots of people who aren't particularly regimented in the "Infantry style" of command and that's almost never used on actual missions.  What's your point, that it's not fair to the washouts?  Life isn't fair.  Having a bias in favor of a certain type of mission that suits a plurality of the needs of the force being augmented is perfectly acceptable, as is diversity in missions after the unit is developed.
> 
> A SEAL washout who has the only downfall of not being amazingly tolerant to hypothermia can always try a lateral move to the Army and try the Q Course.
Click to expand...


it sounds as if whitehall might have a little bitterness maybe he is one of those washouts?


----------



## asterism

bigrebnc1775 said:


> asterism said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> SEALS are stuck in an antiquated concept. They are Sailors so the training is geared toward missions related to the Navy. The problem is that the missions are no longer valid. Most Sailors wash out of Seal training because they cannot adjust to constant hypothermic conditions. Some say that tolerance to hypothermia is genetic and other theories suggest that a certain body type is tolerant of severe cold. Some say that constant exposure to hypothermia and lack of sleep can cause permanent mental disorders. Anyway the Seals wash out people with valuable mental and physical skills and keep people who can stand longer imersion in cold water.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Delta washes out lots of people who would be just fine in the water but aren't so good in the frozen mountains, Recon washes out lots of people who aren't particularly regimented in the "Infantry style" of command and that's almost never used on actual missions.  What's your point, that it's not fair to the washouts?  Life isn't fair.  Having a bias in favor of a certain type of mission that suits a plurality of the needs of the force being augmented is perfectly acceptable, as is diversity in missions after the unit is developed.
> 
> A SEAL washout who has the only downfall of not being amazingly tolerant to hypothermia can always try a lateral move to the Army and try the Q Course.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> it sounds as if whitehall might have a little bitterness maybe he is one of those washouts?
Click to expand...


Perhaps a lat move might work out.  I know a few Recon washouts that did some amazing things wearing green berets.


----------



## whitehall

Cain said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Go away child, you know so very little about what you speak.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Go away"? Don't make me comment about phonies who cut and paste Military rank to reinforce their lack of intelligence.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your right. We should trust a theory based on a guy who believes he is some sort of intellect on the Navy Seals because he has seen a report...
> 
> Honestly, I hope you leave, your pretty annoying, you insult other members, and then call one of them a liar on his military status.
> 
> Best of luck in future ventures.
Click to expand...


I read a book. What do you base your opinions on? Emotion?


----------



## whitehall

SFC Ollie said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Go away child, you know so very little about what you speak.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Go away"? Don't make me comment about phonies who cut and paste Military rank to reinforce their lack of intelligence.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> LOL go right ahead. I believe anyone who has been around here for a while can vouch for my service. Even met one member here for coffee last month. So if you want to attack my service you go for it. You won't be the first or last.
> 
> Yes I wear my rank because I earned it. And yes I'm proud of it.
Click to expand...


I don't appreciate being called "child" by someone who is obviously so insecure that he has to bolster his lack of intelligence with a cut and paste military rank. If you need to rely on emotion and can't discuss the topic with decorum you will be subject to the same abuse you dish out.


----------



## logical4u

whitehall said:


> Don't get me wrong or start sending me hate-mail, I think Sailors who endure the training and become Seals are true patriots. It's the SEAL mission I have a problem with. Seals are the evolution of WW2 and later Navy Frogmen or UDT (underwater demolition teams). During WW2 the UDT had a specific mission of gathering intelligence and paving the way for massive Marine amphibious assaults on Japanese held islands. Those days are gone. Today's Seals are a unit with a very limited mission. I rely on Marcus Luttrell's best seller "Lone Survivor" for my information on Seal training. The book is a remarkable account of survival and endurance but the mission the book was based on was a total failure. In the book  Luttrell questions why Seals are on patrol at 10,000 ft in the Afghan mountains. Good question. Seals are trained  to paddle rubber boats to the point of exhaustion and beyond and to withstand hypothermia. Another section of Luttrell's book says that Seals refused to be billeted with any other Military branch. The lame excuse for that little bit of arrogance is that they might blurt out some secret in their sleep. The elitism and hype is not healthy in today's Military. Seals are used on Recon missions because there is not much else for them to do. There is no shortage of Marine Recon or Ranger or Special Forces personnel. As a matter of fact a Ranger patrol rescued what was left of Luttrell's Seal team.



"The elitism and hype is not healthy", we could go a lot of places with this one.
Is it healthy for the government to think they can tell citizens how to think and what they have to buy?
If you want a service and you want the best,how do you choose?  Do you want someone that can demonstrate their ability is above and beyond the competitor or do you just settle for shoddy work?

Do you know where vet school washouts go?....medical school (old joke to demonstrate how hard vet school is)

In the military, "elitism" is use to motivate people to be the very best in their field.  Are you suggesting we should give them all awards for any performance?
I have worked in a few different fields where those at the top of their game were "prima donas".  Their skills brought up the morale of all, and brought the unit closer and more competetive with each other.
They did not want to billet with others that did not understand their mission.  When an officer was assigned from a different mission, there were really ugly lessons.  The officer had priorities that did not support the mission and hurt morale.
When an experienced officer was assigned that understood the mission and knew how to support it, the unit was well prepared to meet their mission(s) with high morale.  They did not need to "like" the officer, they needed to respect them.

The Navy SEALS, along with the other "elite" fighting forces are used for very specific missions.  They have more intensive training than most of the military members.  Would you prefer to send the best that have a chance of completing the mission, or would you prefer to send troops without that level of training to senseless deaths, with little hope of completing the mission?


----------



## bigrebnc1775

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULzKNFAYG0o&feature=feedrec_grec_index[/ame]


----------



## ABikerSailor

whitehall said:


> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Go away child, you know so very little about what you speak.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Go away"? Don't make me comment about phonies who cut and paste Military rank to reinforce their lack of intelligence.
Click to expand...


Hey White Hall.........SFC Ollie and I have very large idealogical differences, as well as differences in service, but for some dumb shit to say he cut and pasted his service is bullshit and I call shennanigans on your sorry ass.  Yeah......I do give Ollie shit about his service, but it's because of his job and my views concerning differences in service members.  

Don't fuck with Ollie about his service.  You can fuck with him any other which way, but until you've actually put on a uniform, you have no place to talk.  Ollie served this country for 20 years with honor, as is reflected in the fact that he's retired.

Me?  I'm a 20 year Navy veteran who in addition to having had quite a few duty stations where SEALs were at, can tell you a thing or two about them, because I've had to help other members with their application packages.

First, you've got to be in perfect health, with no kind of mental instability in your past.  Your eyes must be no worse than 20/70, correctable to 20/20 with glasses.  You must also pass an entrance PRT which is about twice as hard as what the rest of the troops do.

You must then be screened BY A SEAL and pass their inspection before being considered.

Wanna know the washout rates?  Out of 1,000 people who apply, only about 100 will be accepted into BUDs training.  Of those 100 that are accepted, only about 30 or 40 will pass BUDs, which then opens up the way for them to receive SEAL training and then, upon completion of the 2 year training, they are entitled to wear the Budweiser, which is the SEAL insignia.

By the way chumpsteak, do you even know what SEAL stands for?  It stands for SEa, Air, Land, which is how they run their missions. 

Either they jump out of an airplane and do a HALO (High Altitude, Low Opening) into the water several miles off shore of the place they're going to, or they are inserted into about 60 ft of water from a submerged submarine.  They then swim onto shore, stow their gear, go inland and take out whatever they're sent for, then go back, get the gear, paddle back out to the waiting sub, and THEN come home.

Much different from the good old days of the UDT.  Yes, SEALs are trained for underwater demolitions, but they're also trained to jump out of airplanes, survive in the wild off the land.

What part of that doesn't seem special to you?  Furthermore, SEALs are able to get into places (via HALO or other insertion methods) that most of the military would never be able to get to.

Tell ya what idiot, why don't you actually go talk to a REAL SEAL, and then apologize to them for having such a fucked up view of their service.

While you're at it, apologize to SFC Ollie.  Yeah, I think he's an idiot in some of his views, but that doesn't lessen the service he gave this country.


----------



## SFC Ollie

whitehall said:


> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> "Go away"? Don't make me comment about phonies who cut and paste Military rank to reinforce their lack of intelligence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL go right ahead. I believe anyone who has been around here for a while can vouch for my service. Even met one member here for coffee last month. So if you want to attack my service you go for it. You won't be the first or last.
> 
> Yes I wear my rank because I earned it. And yes I'm proud of it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't appreciate being called "child" by someone who is obviously so insecure that he has to bolster his lack of intelligence with a cut and paste military rank. If you need to rely on emotion and can't discuss the topic with decorum you will be subject to the same abuse you dish out.
Click to expand...


Child you may visit my profile page where I posted my Military ID Card for all to see. It's been there for over a year. I don't play stupid little games with children who attack my service. And my service is a big part of this thread because it is after all about the military.
Now you don't like my answers or comments on this that's just too bad. You read a book, I lived the life for 22 years. 

Once again you read about one mission that failed, shit happens. When you have been there you might understand.


----------



## Toome

Don't go swimming with sharks smelling like chum.


----------



## whitehall

High_Gravity said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toome said:
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty difficult to hold any meaningful discussion without knowing your experience level.  Taking a wild SWAG here, but it seems that you're basing a lot of your views on whatever you've been able to read from open source materials.  And that's fair enough.
> 
> What SFC Ollie, High Gravity, Trajan, Quantum Windbag and others are saying, based on their backgrounds and first hand experiences, is that there is a lot more to being a SEAL than standing in cold water or going without sleep.  And none of us are going to hint or reveal anything classified to satisfy your curiosity.  Suffice it to say that if you want to believe that SEALs are antiquated, old-fashioned and not needed, go right ahead.  No one is trying to change your mind.
> 
> However, you should at least acknowledge that there is a classified side to what the SEALs do.  And if someone who has had some exposure to the Dark Side says that there's a lot more than meets the eye, then you should at least consider that there's more to it than just tradition, testosterone and bravado when it comes to the SEALs and the rest of the special ops community.
> 
> Whether you want to believe this or not, the military is a highly efficient institution.  Yeah, we all make our jokes about some of the silly things we've seen, but combat has no forgiveness for stupidity.  Combat forces the military to be successful.  If the SEALs were truly outdated and unnecessary, the Pentagon would have phased them out a long time ago.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My source material is the recent biography of a Navy Seal and my own life experiences.  We all know that the Pentagon is ....well....the Pentagon. SEALS have created a niche in the Military and the Pentagon ain't about to go against a pop-culture legend regardless of it's effectiveness or the lack of it. Let's review the painfull facts. Luttrell says that SEALS refuse to be billited with other (inferior trained?) Troops. It's a quote. Those BUD graduates who mastered hypothermia go on to Army training and specific Spec-Ops schools that they might be qualified for but the Army and the Marines have a high level of really qualified candidates and the SEALS have a limited source of people who managed to withstand cold showers and paddling rubber boats until unconscious. Now we have SEAL units who think they are the most elite Troops in the Military but they are led by BUD graduates who can hold their breath for a really long time and tolerate cold showers but might not stack up to Army specialist skills. Case in point the SEAL Lt who jumped on a chopper to rescue Luttrell's Seal team and landed in front of an RPG.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> LMAO the Navy SEALS are pop culture now? child you are lost.
Click to expand...


Please don't call me child puff daddy. If you have an opinion relevant to the topic post it.


----------



## Cain

whitehall said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> My source material is the recent biography of a Navy Seal and my own life experiences.  We all know that the Pentagon is ....well....the Pentagon. SEALS have created a niche in the Military and the Pentagon ain't about to go against a pop-culture legend regardless of it's effectiveness or the lack of it. Let's review the painfull facts. Luttrell says that SEALS refuse to be billited with other (inferior trained?) Troops. It's a quote. Those BUD graduates who mastered hypothermia go on to Army training and specific Spec-Ops schools that they might be qualified for but the Army and the Marines have a high level of really qualified candidates and the SEALS have a limited source of people who managed to withstand cold showers and paddling rubber boats until unconscious. Now we have SEAL units who think they are the most elite Troops in the Military but they are led by BUD graduates who can hold their breath for a really long time and tolerate cold showers but might not stack up to Army specialist skills. Case in point the SEAL Lt who jumped on a chopper to rescue Luttrell's Seal team and landed in front of an RPG.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LMAO the Navy SEALS are pop culture now? child you are lost.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Please don't call me child puff daddy. If you have an opinion relevant to the topic post it.
Click to expand...


You mine as well quit while you are ahead hunny.


----------



## Big Black Dog

As a corpsman in the Navy, I was stationed on San Clemente Island, CA.  The SEALS used to train out there a lot.  Now and then I would treat one who had an injury while there on the island.  It is my experience that Navy SEALS are very intelligent, well-trained and disciplined members of the Armed Forces.  They have, and continue, to serve this nation well.


----------



## whitehall

SFC Ollie said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> LOL go right ahead. I believe anyone who has been around here for a while can vouch for my service. Even met one member here for coffee last month. So if you want to attack my service you go for it. You won't be the first or last.
> 
> Yes I wear my rank because I earned it. And yes I'm proud of it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't appreciate being called "child" by someone who is obviously so insecure that he has to bolster his lack of intelligence with a cut and paste military rank. If you need to rely on emotion and can't discuss the topic with decorum you will be subject to the same abuse you dish out.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Child you may visit my profile page where I posted my Military ID Card for all to see. It's been there for over a year. I don't play stupid little games with children who attack my service. And my service is a big part of this thread because it is after all about the military.
> Now you don't like my answers or comments on this that's just too bad. You read a book, I lived the life for 22 years.
> 
> Once again you read about one mission that failed, shit happens. When you have been there you might understand.
Click to expand...


Please don't make yourself a bigger fool than you are Ollie. 22 Years enlisted might qualify you as an expert in your particular (Army) MOS but It doesn't qualify you as an expert in the SEALS or any other Military operation.


----------



## SFC Ollie

whitehall said:


> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't appreciate being called "child" by someone who is obviously so insecure that he has to bolster his lack of intelligence with a cut and paste military rank. If you need to rely on emotion and can't discuss the topic with decorum you will be subject to the same abuse you dish out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Child you may visit my profile page where I posted my Military ID Card for all to see. It's been there for over a year. I don't play stupid little games with children who attack my service. And my service is a big part of this thread because it is after all about the military.
> Now you don't like my answers or comments on this that's just too bad. You read a book, I lived the life for 22 years.
> 
> Once again you read about one mission that failed, shit happens. When you have been there you might understand.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Please don't make yourself a bigger fool than you are Ollie. 22 Years enlisted might qualify you as an expert in your particular (Army) MOS but It doesn't qualify you as an expert in the SEALS or any other Military operation.
Click to expand...


Let us compare.

I served 22 years on active duty. Where I had mission contacts with SF Units on numerous occasions. 

You read a book about one mission.


OK I'm done.....


----------



## Cain

whitehall said:


> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't appreciate being called "child" by someone who is obviously so insecure that he has to bolster his lack of intelligence with a cut and paste military rank. If you need to rely on emotion and can't discuss the topic with decorum you will be subject to the same abuse you dish out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Child you may visit my profile page where I posted my Military ID Card for all to see. It's been there for over a year. I don't play stupid little games with children who attack my service. And my service is a big part of this thread because it is after all about the military.
> Now you don't like my answers or comments on this that's just too bad. You read a book, I lived the life for 22 years.
> 
> Once again you read about one mission that failed, shit happens. When you have been there you might understand.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Please don't make yourself a bigger fool than you are Ollie. 22 Years enlisted might qualify you as an expert in your particular (Army) MOS but It doesn't qualify you as an expert in the SEALS or any other Military operation.
Click to expand...


My uncle was in the Air Force for 13 years in tele-type, but he also served with Special Ops on occasion. I think you need to realize, everyone intermingles at one point or another. I've met 3 Navy Seals in my life, and 1 told me a LOT about his job, and from what I gathered, he loved it, he is the local VA guy, and a really nice guy. No offense, but your argument is null.

All branches inspire pride, and pride clashes with pride. That is why you see each branch talking about the other like they do. So, look at Special Ops as pride x10, because they have had to go through a lot of different stuff and have earned some sort of mark, for example: Pararescue Men get a maroon beret. It's a symbol of pride and respect. You can't complain about their ideas of what it takes to be *insert name of group* I mean really, who are you to complain? 

You have went through this topic, insulting service members, and you have lost all respect I have for new members. Why do you persist in critiquing Navy Seals? Do you think their inferior? That they all have superiority complexes? Guess what? A lot of people do, and when you take someone, put them through crazy training, and train them to be elite, guess what? It grows. My advice? Get over it. 

I deal with superiority complexes everyday, that's high school. That's life. You are sitting here, telling us how their wrong to make people go through that stuff, guess what? They VOLUNTEER for Navy Seals, no one is sticking a gun to their head. If they want to quit, let them, it's their right to choose. Personally, I'd rather have a Navy Seal who has a ego, then someone who wants to critique the training whom read 1 book about them. I've read 6+ books on Navy Seals, I guess that means I have a PHD in Navy Seal training, above you. 

You need to learn respect whitehall, you are bashing people whom have done nothing but tried to show you your wrongs, it's obvious you can't handle criticism very well, my advice? Never go to a recruiter cause even they will criticize you a lot, why? To see how it affects you, and you sir, fail the test.

Also, Ollie isn't the fool sir, you are.


----------



## daveman

whitehall said:


> I don't appreciate being called "child"...


Tough shit, kid.


----------



## william the wie

I did my hitch as a squid ET and regular officers hated to be around AEF (Advanced Electronics Field), Nuke or SEAL enlisted personnel because we had to be brighter than the average officer to do our jobs. And don't think USAF does anything different. Jacksonville has one of the highest percentage Spec Op retirement communities in the nation. Although I don't know the percentages I do know that the only USAF spec op retiree I know on a first name basis is an ex-butter bar who put in for demotion to E-5 to get into Spec Ops and retired as a Chief Master Sergeant. Here's the areas of disagreement and agreement of T. Lee and yourself Whitehall:

The US army has neglected (elite) Alpine warfare since it was the Royal American Army and still does.

Army command of JSOC has always been a disaster of misallocation of Spec OP resources in terms of open source mission records.

That ends the agreement. If you want an idea of how Special Operators actually perform research the exposes on Soviet era Spetnaz. Like earlier Soviet era bombers the Spetnaz idea was stolen from UK and US special operations and was based on after action reports from wars like the Philippine insurrection and Boer war. These special units were seen rarely but highly effectively in WWI and more commonly in WWII. What you get from open source materials are the miscommunications and misallocation of those units. Most SEALS serve on submarines or as advisers to the naval forces of other nations, not in the mountains of Afghanistan. The screw up you read about is entirely the result of much higher death and disability rates for Alpine training with the 10th mountain division as opposed to jumping out of airplanes. That is one promotion ticket punch the Army officer corps isn't willing to touch with a fork on the end of a bargepole. The USN has a similar reaction to mine warfare. So don't blame the people caught up in someone else's SNAFU.


----------



## whitehall

bigrebnc1775 said:


> asterism said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> SEALS are stuck in an antiquated concept. They are Sailors so the training is geared toward missions related to the Navy. The problem is that the missions are no longer valid. Most Sailors wash out of Seal training because they cannot adjust to constant hypothermic conditions. Some say that tolerance to hypothermia is genetic and other theories suggest that a certain body type is tolerant of severe cold. Some say that constant exposure to hypothermia and lack of sleep can cause permanent mental disorders. Anyway the Seals wash out people with valuable mental and physical skills and keep people who can stand longer imersion in cold water.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Delta washes out lots of people who would be just fine in the water but aren't so good in the frozen mountains, Recon washes out lots of people who aren't particularly regimented in the "Infantry style" of command and that's almost never used on actual missions.  What's your point, that it's not fair to the washouts?  Life isn't fair.  Having a bias in favor of a certain type of mission that suits a plurality of the needs of the force being augmented is perfectly acceptable, as is diversity in missions after the unit is developed.
> 
> A SEAL washout who has the only downfall of not being amazingly tolerant to hypothermia can always try a lateral move to the Army and try the Q Course.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> it sounds as if whitehall might have a little bitterness maybe he is one of those washouts?
Click to expand...


I'd be proud to have been a washout in SEAL training but no, I never came close to SEAL training.


----------



## whitehall

bigrebnc1775 said:


> asterism said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> SEALS are stuck in an antiquated concept. They are Sailors so the training is geared toward missions related to the Navy. The problem is that the missions are no longer valid. Most Sailors wash out of Seal training because they cannot adjust to constant hypothermic conditions. Some say that tolerance to hypothermia is genetic and other theories suggest that a certain body type is tolerant of severe cold. Some say that constant exposure to hypothermia and lack of sleep can cause permanent mental disorders. Anyway the Seals wash out people with valuable mental and physical skills and keep people who can stand longer imersion in cold water.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Delta washes out lots of people who would be just fine in the water but aren't so good in the frozen mountains, Recon washes out lots of people who aren't particularly regimented in the "Infantry style" of command and that's almost never used on actual missions.  What's your point, that it's not fair to the washouts?  Life isn't fair.  Having a bias in favor of a certain type of mission that suits a plurality of the needs of the force being augmented is perfectly acceptable, as is diversity in missions after the unit is developed.
> 
> A SEAL washout who has the only downfall of not being amazingly tolerant to hypothermia can always try a lateral move to the Army and try the Q Course.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> it sounds as if whitehall might have a little bitterness maybe he is one of those washouts?
Click to expand...


Don't get your conspiracy juices flowing guys. I never even heard of SEALS when I was a Marine and I don't know anyone who washed out of the program. I'm just an old Vet who prefers to analyze a Military program based on a bio of someone who was there.


----------



## Cain

whitehall said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> asterism said:
> 
> 
> 
> Delta washes out lots of people who would be just fine in the water but aren't so good in the frozen mountains, Recon washes out lots of people who aren't particularly regimented in the "Infantry style" of command and that's almost never used on actual missions.  What's your point, that it's not fair to the washouts?  Life isn't fair.  Having a bias in favor of a certain type of mission that suits a plurality of the needs of the force being augmented is perfectly acceptable, as is diversity in missions after the unit is developed.
> 
> A SEAL washout who has the only downfall of not being amazingly tolerant to hypothermia can always try a lateral move to the Army and try the Q Course.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> it sounds as if whitehall might have a little bitterness maybe he is one of those washouts?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Don't get your conspiracy juices flowing guys. I never even heard of SEALS when I was a Marine and I don't know anyone who washed out of the program. I'm just an old Vet who prefers to analyze a Military program based on a bio of someone who was there.
Click to expand...


Even though I think your insane for judging the Seals based on 1 book.

Thanks for Serving whitehall


----------



## daveman

whitehall said:


> I never even heard of SEALS when I was a Marine...


When were you a Marine?


----------



## High_Gravity

daveman said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> I never even heard of SEALS when I was a Marine...
> 
> 
> 
> When were you a Marine?
Click to expand...


How could he have not heard of the SEALS if he was a Marine? I smell bullshit.


----------



## daveman

High_Gravity said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> I never even heard of SEALS when I was a Marine...
> 
> 
> 
> When were you a Marine?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How could he have not heard of the SEALS if he was a Marine? I smell bullshit.
Click to expand...


I do, too.  The SEALs were established in 1962.


----------



## ABikerSailor

High_Gravity said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> I never even heard of SEALS when I was a Marine...
> 
> 
> 
> When were you a Marine?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How could he have not heard of the SEALS if he was a Marine? I smell bullshit.
Click to expand...


Me too............sounds like the kid is full of grade A bullshit.

And yeah.......I've been stationed around SEALS and knew them at 3 different locations.  When stationed with VFA-131 we had a kid named Chris who had washed out of SEAL training because he'd gotten smashed on the rocks when doing boat training.  His whole purpose in life was to get back to training when he was fully healed.

Knew another SEAL while stationed at Oceana named Steve.  Nice guy, but poor fucker was ALWAYS on call.

Knew another at the Naval War College in Newport RI.  He was one of those guys in Panama.

Are the SEALS necessary?  Yes.  I've already listed several reasons why.

Is Whitehall a kid with no clue?  Equally yes, as referenced by his bullshit posts on this thread.


----------



## uscitizen

The navy must have seals otherwise all their ships and subs would sink.


----------



## High_Gravity

ABikerSailor said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> When were you a Marine?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How could he have not heard of the SEALS if he was a Marine? I smell bullshit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Me too............sounds like the kid is full of grade A bullshit.
> 
> And yeah.......I've been stationed around SEALS and knew them at 3 different locations.  When stationed with VFA-131 we had a kid named Chris who had washed out of SEAL training because he'd gotten smashed on the rocks when doing boat training.  His whole purpose in life was to get back to training when he was fully healed.
> 
> Knew another SEAL while stationed at Oceana named Steve.  Nice guy, but poor fucker was ALWAYS on call.
> 
> Knew another at the Naval War College in Newport RI.  He was one of those guys in Panama.
> 
> Are the SEALS necessary?  Yes.  I've already listed several reasons why.
> 
> Is Whitehall a kid with no clue?  Equally yes, as referenced by his bullshit posts on this thread.
Click to expand...


I still believe this kid tried to get into the SEALS and was either denied entry or washed out the first day, and this is his way of feeling better about his failure, tearing down the whole SEALS program.


----------



## Jos

His opinion comes from a book? 





> I rely on Marcus Luttrell's best seller "Lone Survivor" for my information on Seal training.


----------



## daveman

High_Gravity said:


> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> How could he have not heard of the SEALS if he was a Marine? I smell bullshit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Me too............sounds like the kid is full of grade A bullshit.
> 
> And yeah.......I've been stationed around SEALS and knew them at 3 different locations.  When stationed with VFA-131 we had a kid named Chris who had washed out of SEAL training because he'd gotten smashed on the rocks when doing boat training.  His whole purpose in life was to get back to training when he was fully healed.
> 
> Knew another SEAL while stationed at Oceana named Steve.  Nice guy, but poor fucker was ALWAYS on call.
> 
> Knew another at the Naval War College in Newport RI.  He was one of those guys in Panama.
> 
> Are the SEALS necessary?  Yes.  I've already listed several reasons why.
> 
> Is Whitehall a kid with no clue?  Equally yes, as referenced by his bullshit posts on this thread.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I still believe this kid tried to get into the SEALS and was either denied entry or washed out the first day, and this is his way of feeling better about his failure, tearing down the whole SEALS program.
Click to expand...

I don't even think he's that tough.  I think he keeps getting his butt kicked in [ame="http://www.amazon.com/SOCOM-U-S-Navy-Seals-Playstation-2/dp/B000099T2H"]SOCOM II U.S. Navy Seals[/ame].


----------



## daveman

uscitizen said:


> The navy must have seals otherwise all their ships and subs would sink.


You know why they call them SEALs?

Because O-RINGs or GASKETs would be dumb.


----------



## uscitizen

daveman said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> The navy must have seals otherwise all their ships and subs would sink.
> 
> 
> 
> You know why they call them SEALs?
> 
> Because O-RINGs or GASKETs would be dumb.
Click to expand...


Depends on the application.  I have seen O-Rings used in applications that were not appropriate and they failed.
I like good double lipped seals best.  Of course gaskets have their place too.  I like to watch pundits blow theirs


----------



## daveman

uscitizen said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> The navy must have seals otherwise all their ships and subs would sink.
> 
> 
> 
> You know why they call them SEALs?
> 
> Because O-RINGs or GASKETs would be dumb.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Depends on the application.  I have seen O-Rings used in applications that were not appropriate and they failed.
> I like good double lipped seals best.  Of course gaskets have their place too.  I like to watch pundits blow theirs
Click to expand...


----------



## whitehall

daveman said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> I never even heard of SEALS when I was a Marine...
> 
> 
> 
> When were you a Marine?
Click to expand...


During JFK's administration.


----------



## whitehall

Cain said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> 
> it sounds as if whitehall might have a little bitterness maybe he is one of those washouts?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't get your conspiracy juices flowing guys. I never even heard of SEALS when I was a Marine and I don't know anyone who washed out of the program. I'm just an old Vet who prefers to analyze a Military program based on a bio of someone who was there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Even though I think your insane for judging the Seals based on 1 book.
> 
> Thanks for Serving whitehall
Click to expand...


The best information we can get is from the original source isn't? Marcus Luttrell's book was a national best-seller autobiography of a modern Navy SEAL. It goes through the motivation and every detail of the training as well as a first hand account of a combat mission. What could be a better way to judge the SEAL concept? Emotion?


----------



## daveman

whitehall said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> I never even heard of SEALS when I was a Marine...
> 
> 
> 
> When were you a Marine?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> During JFK's administration.
Click to expand...

The SEALs were established in '62.  I have difficulty believing you never heard of them while you were in.


----------



## whitehall

daveman said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> When were you a Marine?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> During JFK's administration.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The SEALs were established in '62.  I have difficulty believing you never heard of them while you were in.
Click to expand...


Why would you think I should have heard of the SEALS in '62? Did they make some sort of impact in the Military world back then? I was just a kid and I didn't read the papers or watch much TV. I was more concerned with getting through NCO Leadership school and about a dozen other challenges back then. It's no big deal whether or not I heard of the SEALS anyway.


----------



## william the wie

daveman said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> When were you a Marine?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> During JFK's administration.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The SEALs were established in '62.  I have difficulty believing you never heard of them while you were in.
Click to expand...

All of the SOCOM units started out as highly classified units. Delta Force which has had semi-official histories written about it still does not officially exist. At least two units that also officially do not exist and rarely get written about do exist according to open sources one provides intelligence for special operations and the other provides logistical support for other units. There are also special cyber warfare units and no doubt many others. Bureaucratic empires uniformed or not tend to grow.


----------



## whitehall

I'm not sure if SEALS were created in the open as a logical evolution of the old UDT. JFK was an old WW2 Navy man so he probably assumed that the Navy's readiness depended on old WW2 concepts. Possibly SEALS actually filled a niche in the Military in the early 60's. The problem is that SEAL training relies on old concepts and they are stuck with it through tradition and funding. Does it make sense to take Sailors and train them as mountain recon units? No. That's why the training still consists of paddling rubber boats.


----------



## daveman

whitehall said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> During JFK's administration.
> 
> 
> 
> The SEALs were established in '62.  I have difficulty believing you never heard of them while you were in.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why would you think I should have heard of the SEALS in '62? Did they make some sort of impact in the Military world back then? I was just a kid and I didn't read the papers or watch much TV. I was more concerned with getting through NCO Leadership school and about a dozen other challenges back then. It's no big deal whether or not I heard of the SEALS anyway.
Click to expand...

Uh huh.


----------



## daveman

william the wie said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> During JFK's administration.
> 
> 
> 
> The SEALs were established in '62.  I have difficulty believing you never heard of them while you were in.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> All of the SOCOM units started out as highly classified units. Delta Force which has had semi-official histories written about it still does not officially exist. At least two units that also officially do not exist and rarely get written about do exist according to open sources one provides intelligence for special operations and the other provides logistical support for other units. There are also special cyber warfare units and no doubt many others. Bureaucratic empires uniformed or not tend to grow.
Click to expand...

Perhaps.


----------



## daveman

whitehall said:


> I'm not sure if SEALS were created in the open as a logical evolution of the old UDT. JFK was an old WW2 Navy man so he probably assumed that the Navy's readiness depended on old WW2 concepts. Possibly SEALS actually filled a niche in the Military in the early 60's. The problem is that SEAL training relies on old concepts and they are stuck with it through tradition and funding. Does it make sense to take Sailors and train them as mountain recon units? No. That's why the training still consists of paddling rubber boats.


You might want to read some more books.


----------



## SFC Ollie

william the wie said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> During JFK's administration.
> 
> 
> 
> The SEALs were established in '62.  I have difficulty believing you never heard of them while you were in.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> All of the SOCOM units started out as highly classified units. Delta Force which has had semi-official histories written about it still does not officially exist. At least two units that also officially do not exist and rarely get written about do exist according to open sources one provides intelligence for special operations and the other provides logistical support for other units. There are also special cyber warfare units and no doubt many others. Bureaucratic empires uniformed or not tend to grow.
Click to expand...


Actually your Delta Force does officially exist and has for years.

The actual name of the Unit is:

1st Special Forces Operational Detachment Delta


----------



## Brian175

SFC Ollie said:


> I refuse to say anything bad about any Special Forces. they all are the best that we have to offer. I've never known a SEAL but I've known many Green Beret. My salute to them all. And BTW contrary to popular belief, Rangers are not really Special Forces, I've known many of them too.


Don't mean to bump an old thread, but...
SFC Ollie, your service is commendable, and I don't know your MOS, but perhaps you should realize that 20 years in the military does not make you an expert in everything. For one, there is only one Special Forces, and that is the men of the 1st Special Forces Regiment also sometimes erroneously referred to as Green Berets. Second, Rangers fall under SOCOM and currently augment JSOC task forces to this day. Even as we speak, Rangers are out grabbing HVTs from their beds for task forces that need clearances to be spoken about.

A Ranger tab does not equal a Ranger, if these are among the many men you know then you don't really know many Rangers. There's a couple thousand Rangers in all of the military and unless you happen to be based in Ft Lewis, HAAF or Ft Benning, they are not common.


ABikerSailor said:


> Me?  I'm a 20 year Navy veteran who in addition to having had quite a few duty stations where SEALs were at, can tell you a thing or two about them, because I've had to help other members with their application packages.
> 
> Wanna know the washout rates?  Out of 1,000 people who apply, only about 100 will be accepted into BUDs training.  Of those 100 that are accepted, only about 30 or 40 will pass BUDs, which then opens up the way for them to receive SEAL training and then, upon completion of the 2 year training, they are entitled to wear the Budweiser, which is the SEAL insignia.


Your BUD/S statistic is about right though there's been classes where there was up to 100% graduation, but that's not common. I don't where you get the 1,000 application statistic from. I'm guessing you pretty much made that one up. It blows my mind to see retired vets perpetuating this type of misinformation.


----------



## JackDan

Brian175 said:


> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I refuse to say anything bad about any Special Forces. they all are the best that we have to offer. I've never known a SEAL but I've known many Green Beret. My salute to them all. And BTW contrary to popular belief, Rangers are not really Special Forces, I've known many of them too.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't mean to bump an old thread, but...
> SFC Ollie, your service is commendable, and I don't know your MOS, but perhaps you should realize that 20 years in the military does not make you an expert in everything. For one, there is only one Special Forces, and that is the men of the 1st Special Forces Regiment also sometimes erroneously referred to as Green Berets. Second, Rangers fall under SOCOM and currently augment JSOC task forces to this day. Even as we speak, Rangers are out grabbing HVTs from their beds for task forces that need clearances to be spoken about.
> 
> A Ranger tab does not equal a Ranger, if these are among the many men you know then you don't really know many Rangers. There's a couple thousand Rangers in all of the military and unless you happen to be based in Ft Lewis, HAAF or Ft Benning, they are not common.
> 
> 
> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Me?  I'm a 20 year Navy veteran who in addition to having had quite a few duty stations where SEALs were at, can tell you a thing or two about them, because I've had to help other members with their application packages.
> 
> Wanna know the washout rates?  Out of 1,000 people who apply, only about 100 will be accepted into BUDs training.  Of those 100 that are accepted, only about 30 or 40 will pass BUDs, which then opens up the way for them to receive SEAL training and then, upon completion of the 2 year training, they are entitled to wear the Budweiser, which is the SEAL insignia.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Your BUD/S statistic is about right though there's been classes where there was up to 100% graduation, but that's not common. I don't where you get the 1,000 application statistic from. I'm guessing you pretty much made that one up. It blows my mind to see retired vets perpetuating this type of misinformation.
Click to expand...


Living in san diego throughout my 20's I have known and been close friends with many canidates for navy seals, but have only known 3-4 that actually passed the buds program. I have one friend who probably tried to take the test 10 times and never passed. (I think the limit is like 5 times and then you can't take it again?)  He was built like a brick shithouse too, and pretty much failed because of mental collapse. Another 1 friend was a greenhorn and is receiving the 2 year training but hasn't done much, the other was my neighbor, and boy did he have some stories to tell... They mostly say that of each class of 100 it is 20-40% dropout rate depending on the class.


----------



## SFC Ollie

Brian175 said:


> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I refuse to say anything bad about any Special Forces. they all are the best that we have to offer. I've never known a SEAL but I've known many Green Beret. My salute to them all. And BTW contrary to popular belief, Rangers are not really Special Forces, I've known many of them too.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't mean to bump an old thread, but...
> SFC Ollie, your service is commendable, and I don't know your MOS, but perhaps you should realize that 20 years in the military does not make you an expert in everything. For one, there is only one Special Forces, and that is the men of the 1st Special Forces Regiment also sometimes erroneously referred to as Green Berets. Second, Rangers fall under SOCOM and currently augment JSOC task forces to this day. Even as we speak, Rangers are out grabbing HVTs from their beds for task forces that need clearances to be spoken about.
> 
> A Ranger tab does not equal a Ranger, if these are among the many men you know then you don't really know many Rangers. There's a couple thousand Rangers in all of the military and unless you happen to be based in Ft Lewis, HAAF or Ft Benning, they are not common.
> 
> 
> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Me?  I'm a 20 year Navy veteran who in addition to having had quite a few duty stations where SEALs were at, can tell you a thing or two about them, because I've had to help other members with their application packages.
> 
> Wanna know the washout rates?  Out of 1,000 people who apply, only about 100 will be accepted into BUDs training.  Of those 100 that are accepted, only about 30 or 40 will pass BUDs, which then opens up the way for them to receive SEAL training and then, upon completion of the 2 year training, they are entitled to wear the Budweiser, which is the SEAL insignia.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Your BUD/S statistic is about right though there's been classes where there was up to 100% graduation, but that's not common. I don't where you get the 1,000 application statistic from. I'm guessing you pretty much made that one up. It blows my mind to see retired vets perpetuating this type of misinformation.
Click to expand...


Did I say something wrong? And Special forces are not mistakenly called green berets, it is what they call themselves. And yes I know the difference between a Ranger and someone who has earned a ranger tab.

Why you would bring up things like 1St Special forces Regiment and say I am wrong or to imply that I don't know any Rangers or Special Forces troops I don't know.

I did 2 tours at Bragg and lived outside of Benning for 2 years after I retired. I know a lot of people.

And my MOS has nothing to do with who I know or what I know. I've also met with people who were assigned to 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment Delta, as part of my job.

Now please list the qualifications you want to claim for yourself  to tell me I'm wrong.


----------



## Warrior102

SFC Ollie said:


> Tell you what, you have a problem with the SEALS? Go tell one of them to their face. The rest of us will simply give them the respect they deserve.



Actually, any Lance Corporal (basic/gate guard) will do. 
LOL!


----------



## Brian175

SFC Ollie said:


> Did I say something wrong? And Special forces are not mistakenly called green berets, it is what they call themselves. And yes I know the difference between a Ranger and someone who has earned a ranger tab.
> 
> Why you would bring up things like 1St Special forces Regiment and say I am wrong or to imply that I don't know any Rangers or Special Forces troops I don't know.
> 
> I did 2 tours at Bragg and lived outside of Benning for 2 years after I retired. I know a lot of people.
> 
> And my MOS has nothing to do with who I know or what I know. I've also met with people who were assigned to 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment Delta, as part of my job.
> 
> Now please list the qualifications you want to claim for yourself  to tell me I'm wrong.



I really wish I could post links:
professionalsoldiers(dot)com/forums/showthread.php?t=1860&highlight=green+beret+hat

Go four post down.



> What irritates SF?
> 1. Being called a hat.


He's referring to the green beret as it is just a hat.
They are called SF soldiers or sometimes quiet professionals. You also said Rangers are not really special forces. Your right, there's only one Special Forces. What you probably meant to say is Rangers are not SOF, an erroneous statement.

As for me, I was just a buck sergeant in 1/75 during a time of war until I got out last year.


----------



## SFC Ollie

Brian175 said:


> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did I say something wrong? And Special forces are not mistakenly called green berets, it is what they call themselves. And yes I know the difference between a Ranger and someone who has earned a ranger tab.
> 
> Why you would bring up things like 1St Special forces Regiment and say I am wrong or to imply that I don't know any Rangers or Special Forces troops I don't know.
> 
> I did 2 tours at Bragg and lived outside of Benning for 2 years after I retired. I know a lot of people.
> 
> And my MOS has nothing to do with who I know or what I know. I've also met with people who were assigned to 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment Delta, as part of my job.
> 
> Now please list the qualifications you want to claim for yourself  to tell me I'm wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I really wish I could post links:
> professionalsoldiers(dot)com/forums/showthread.php?t=1860&highlight=green+beret+hat
> 
> Go four post down.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What irritates SF?
> 1. Being called a hat.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> He's referring to the green beret as it is just a hat.
> They are called SF soldiers or sometimes quiet professionals. You also said Rangers are not really special forces. Your right, there's only one Special Forces. What you probably meant to say is Rangers are not SOF, an erroneous statement.
> 
> As for me, I was just a buck sergeant in 1/75 during a time of war until I got out last year.
Click to expand...


And I lived next door to a green beret Soldier for 3 years and worked with them on several instances. Never met one who didn't use the term. 1SG Roger Hall ( My 1SG last time I was at Bragg) was SF for 17 of his 23 years on active duty. He had an autographed picture of John Wayne hanging in his office. He had been one of the  extras in the movie the Green berets.

You quote a nameless person on a chat board. I worked with them and lived with them. Never heard one complain but heard them use the term themselves many times. And I suppose they all hate SSG Sadler For his infamous song too.


----------



## Brian175

SFC Ollie said:


> Brian175 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did I say something wrong? And Special forces are not mistakenly called green berets, it is what they call themselves. And yes I know the difference between a Ranger and someone who has earned a ranger tab.
> 
> Why you would bring up things like 1St Special forces Regiment and say I am wrong or to imply that I don't know any Rangers or Special Forces troops I don't know.
> 
> I did 2 tours at Bragg and lived outside of Benning for 2 years after I retired. I know a lot of people.
> 
> And my MOS has nothing to do with who I know or what I know. I've also met with people who were assigned to 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment Delta, as part of my job.
> 
> Now please list the qualifications you want to claim for yourself  to tell me I'm wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I really wish I could post links:
> professionalsoldiers(dot)com/forums/showthread.php?t=1860&highlight=green+beret+hat
> 
> Go four post down.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What irritates SF?
> 1. Being called a hat.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> He's referring to the green beret as it is just a hat.
> They are called SF soldiers or sometimes quiet professionals. You also said Rangers are not really special forces. Your right, there's only one Special Forces. What you probably meant to say is Rangers are not SOF, an erroneous statement.
> 
> As for me, I was just a buck sergeant in 1/75 during a time of war until I got out last year.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And I lived next door to a green beret Soldier for 3 years and worked with them on several instances. Never met one who didn't use the term. 1SG Roger Hall ( My 1SG last time I was at Bragg) was SF for 17 of his 23 years on active duty. He had an autographed picture of John Wayne hanging in his office. He had been one of the  extras in the movie the Green berets.
> 
> You quote a nameless person on a chat board. I worked with them and lived with them. Never heard one complain but heard them use the term themselves many times. And I suppose they all hate SSG Sadler For his infamous song too.
Click to expand...

Ah yes, of course a board full of vetted SF from various eras all agreeing the term irritates them must be wrong because you don't personally know them. I guess we'll agree to disagree. That aside your attempt at saying Rangers are not really SOF is wrong.


----------



## SFC Ollie

Brian175 said:


> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brian175 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I really wish I could post links:
> professionalsoldiers(dot)com/forums/showthread.php?t=1860&highlight=green+beret+hat
> 
> Go four post down.
> 
> 
> He's referring to the green beret as it is just a hat.
> They are called SF soldiers or sometimes quiet professionals. You also said Rangers are not really special forces. Your right, there's only one Special Forces. What you probably meant to say is Rangers are not SOF, an erroneous statement.
> 
> As for me, I was just a buck sergeant in 1/75 during a time of war until I got out last year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And I lived next door to a green beret Soldier for 3 years and worked with them on several instances. Never met one who didn't use the term. 1SG Roger Hall ( My 1SG last time I was at Bragg) was SF for 17 of his 23 years on active duty. He had an autographed picture of John Wayne hanging in his office. He had been one of the  extras in the movie the Green berets.
> 
> You quote a nameless person on a chat board. I worked with them and lived with them. Never heard one complain but heard them use the term themselves many times. And I suppose they all hate SSG Sadler For his infamous song too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ah yes, of course a board full of vetted SF from various eras all agreeing the term irritates them must be wrong because you don't personally know them. I guess we'll agree to disagree. That aside your attempt at saying Rangers are not really SOF is wrong.
Click to expand...


Hey dick weed, do not come in here and make a lame attempt to put words in my mouth. I said that Rangers were not Special Forces.  I was, am , and always will be a SFC. I say what I mean, not what you think I meant to say. Understand Sergeant?


----------



## Brian175

SFC Ollie said:


> Hey dick weed, do not come in here and make a lame attempt to put words in my mouth. I said that Rangers were not Special Forces.  I was, am , and always will be a SFC. I say what I mean, not what you think I meant to say. Understand Sergeant?





SFC Ollie said:


> And BTW contrary to popular belief, Rangers are not really Special Forces, I've known many of them too.


Well this is certainly an unusual statement to make. We either are SOF or not Special Forces, no 'not really's to it but roger that, Sergeant, no more word stuffing.


----------



## The Gadfly

What I'd like to know, is why we are having (yet another) relatively pointless argument?  Look, guys, we have vets here from pre-Vietnam to the present day. During that time, some terminology, MOS designations, and attitudes have changed over the years. A sixties-era MOS might not be recognizable to someone who joined the army in the eighties, for example. Some ranks have changed (the old Sp. 5 and Sp. 6 designations are obsolete). Some training cycles have changed along with some unit cultures and attitudes. The point is that someone who served in one era may well remember some things quite differently from those that served in another. So who's right? Often they both are. Case in point, the "beret, rifle green", the distinctive Army Special Forces headgear, and the song, "Ballad of the Green Beret". SF soldiers from different eras and different units have had varying attitudes about being referred to as "Green Berets". Back in the Vietnam era, there was considerable sentiment that " an SF soldier is a man; a green beret is a hat" (albeit a very special hat). That sentiment was particularly common in the 5th SF Group, though not limited to it, at the time. Likewise, the song by Barry Sadler got a very mixed reception from SF soldiers initially; it was an object of derision in some quarters, though it fared better in the 7th SF Group (since SSgt. Sadler was in 7th Group, perhaps?). Eventually, the song was grudgingly accepted by some; enthusiastically adopted by others. Same with the "Green Beret" moniker; there are still some differences on that among SF personnel, sometimes depending on when and with what unit(s) they served. So Brian and Ollie may both be at least partially right on that one, as just one example. Now why the hell are we vets sitting here nitpicking and backbiting at one another in front of the civilians?


----------



## oldsalt

whitehall said:


> According to Luttrell Seals keep their own identity regardless of the overall commander. SEALS are trained like no other Military unit. Their basic training is specific for water related missions and it it is outmoded. Why go through the expense of training Sailors to paddle rubber boats while unconcious while they wash out otherwise qualified personnel who can't endure extreme hypothermia?



Did you ring the bell at BUDS?


----------



## ABikerSailor

Brian175 said:


> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I refuse to say anything bad about any Special Forces. they all are the best that we have to offer. I've never known a SEAL but I've known many Green Beret. My salute to them all. And BTW contrary to popular belief, Rangers are not really Special Forces, I've known many of them too.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't mean to bump an old thread, but...
> SFC Ollie, your service is commendable, and I don't know your MOS, but perhaps you should realize that 20 years in the military does not make you an expert in everything. For one, there is only one Special Forces, and that is the men of the 1st Special Forces Regiment also sometimes erroneously referred to as Green Berets. Second, Rangers fall under SOCOM and currently augment JSOC task forces to this day. Even as we speak, Rangers are out grabbing HVTs from their beds for task forces that need clearances to be spoken about.
> 
> A Ranger tab does not equal a Ranger, if these are among the many men you know then you don't really know many Rangers. There's a couple thousand Rangers in all of the military and unless you happen to be based in Ft Lewis, HAAF or Ft Benning, they are not common.
> 
> 
> ABikerSailor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Me?  I'm a 20 year Navy veteran who in addition to having had quite a few duty stations where SEALs were at, can tell you a thing or two about them, because I've had to help other members with their application packages.
> 
> Wanna know the washout rates?  Out of 1,000 people who apply, only about 100 will be accepted into BUDs training.  Of those 100 that are accepted, only about 30 or 40 will pass BUDs, which then opens up the way for them to receive SEAL training and then, upon completion of the 2 year training, they are entitled to wear the Budweiser, which is the SEAL insignia.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Your BUD/S statistic is about right though there's been classes where there was up to 100% graduation, but that's not common. I don't where you get the 1,000 application statistic from. I'm guessing you pretty much made that one up. It blows my mind to see retired vets perpetuating this type of misinformation.
Click to expand...


Nope.  My application figure is correct.  I looked up the stats while active.


----------



## SFC Ollie

Hate to dig up old posts but todays headlines from Military.com

"2 Green Berets Get Silver Star, 12 Get Bronze With V "

2 Green Berets Get Silver Star, 12 Get Bronze With


----------



## whitehall

oldsalt said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> According to Luttrell Seals keep their own identity regardless of the overall commander. SEALS are trained like no other Military unit. Their basic training is specific for water related missions and it it is outmoded. Why go through the expense of training Sailors to paddle rubber boats while unconcious while they wash out otherwise qualified personnel who can't endure extreme hypothermia?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did you ring the bell at BUDS?
Click to expand...


When I was in the Marines they were still called UDT. According to Luttrell's book, a lot of good men washed out of BUDS because they couldn't take the constant hypothermia. Those men had skills which would have been valuable to SEALS but they were discarded in favor of people who might have permanent mental impairment from the abusive training. Fair enough if SEALS mission involved only constant cold water imersion but the mission that Luttrell refered to in his book failed because a SEAL recon patrol couldn't seem to navigate in the Afghanistan mountains in fog and found themselves surrounded by the enemy they were supposed to recon. The SEAL elitism caused a SEAL leader to compound the failure of the mission by jumping on a helicopter without a realistic plan and land in a Taliban ambush which killed every member of the rescue team. It took an Army Ranger patrol to rescue Luttrell.


----------



## JamesInFlorida

SFC Ollie said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tell you what, you have a problem with the SEALS? Go tell one of them to their face. The rest of us will simply give them the respect they deserve.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah yeah yeah Ollie. Challenge them to a fight. That will substitute for intelligent discussion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I did not say to challenge them to a fight. I said to tell them your problem with them. Chances are you will walk away wondering why you feel so stupid. T*here is a lot more to SF than physical strength.*
Click to expand...


Exactly. There's a reason why the Seal team that got Osama had an average age of 38.


----------



## oldsalt

whitehall said:


> oldsalt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> According to Luttrell Seals keep their own identity regardless of the overall commander. SEALS are trained like no other Military unit. Their basic training is specific for water related missions and it it is outmoded. Why go through the expense of training Sailors to paddle rubber boats while unconcious while they wash out otherwise qualified personnel who can't endure extreme hypothermia?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did you ring the bell at BUDS?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When I was in the Marines they were still called UDT. According to Luttrell's book, a lot of good men washed out of BUDS because they couldn't take the constant hypothermia. Those men had skills which would have been valuable to SEALS but they were discarded in favor of people who might have permanent mental impairment from the abusive training. Fair enough if SEALS mission involved only constant cold water imersion but the mission that Luttrell refered to in his book failed because a SEAL recon patrol couldn't seem to navigate in the Afghanistan mountains in fog and found themselves surrounded by the enemy they were supposed to recon. The SEAL elitism caused a SEAL leader to compound the failure of the mission by jumping on a helicopter without a realistic plan and land in a Taliban ambush which killed every member of the rescue team. It took an Army Ranger patrol to rescue Luttrell.
Click to expand...


Ok, then based on your info, there must be another reason for your obsession with outdating the SEAL program.  Interservice rivalry, perhaps?  Pecker envy?  You tell me.  Their mission success ratio necessitates their existence.


----------



## blastoff

In the mid to late 90s we made a product that was part of the equipment issued to all BUDs recruits at Coronado, CA, so as a result I was given access to their training not normally granted to civilians.  This was done so I could observe first hand the environment(s) our product was subjected to during their training rather than having to rely on info second and third hand. This was so we could make improvements to our product, which took quite a beating in training.  So as a result I got to spend quite a bit of time at Coronado.

Once I had been there the first days of a new BUDs class and then returned about 2-3 weeks later, by which time the class had shrunk appreciably.  On that visit the Commander of BUDs invited me to have dinner with him, which gave me the opportunity to discuss the training with him.  I told him at the beginning of that class I'd seen some guys who looked to be in very good physical condition, very well built and whatnot, and others who were in no way as well put together.  But after noticing the class attrition that had taken place between visits I couldn't put a finger on which type of guys seemed to have been better prepared for the rigors of the training, so I asked the Commander what it took for a guy to make it through BUDs.  And he had a very simple two word answer: indomitable will.  And then went on to add that the physical part of the training was so demanding that no one could get through it if they couldn't handle it mentally.  The first battle, he said, is in your head and the second is all the physical stuff.


----------



## smith77

You cite BUDs like it is the only training SEALs receive.   After BUDs Seals receive massive amounts of training.  I am convinced there is much inter service jealousy because the Navy is often considered the "sexiest" service  by the general public.  Other services do not have block buster movies based on them.  Like "An Officer and a Gentleman" or "Top Gun".


----------



## harmonica

maybe it's been said, but there were a few more SEAL failures
Panama and drowning at Grenada 


> `If the mission was to take and hold the airfield, Army Rangers or Marines are better-equipped for the job,`` one SEAL said.





> ``If the job was to deny entry and exit to the airfield, a single team spotting for naval gunfire or using the AC-130 gunship overhead could have done the job. There were alternatives,


A Miscalculation Of Mission For The Seals In Panama?
..I worked with SEALS and Delta Force on ship
..we had a SEAL teach us scuba diving off duty
..it's always good to have forces such as Delta and SEALS available
..what's not good is using them for missions they are not designed for--per the link


----------



## harmonica

smith77 said:


> You cite BUDs like it is the only training SEALs receive.   After BUDs Seals receive massive amounts of training.  I am convinced there is much inter service jealousy because the Navy is often considered the "sexiest" service  by the general public.  Other services do not have block buster movies based on them.  Like "An Officer and a Gentleman" or "Top Gun".


I've been reading military and war for over 30 years
I was in the USMC for 8 years
I never heard the Navy as the ''sexiest''...and I was stationed on a Navy base when _Top Gun _came out 
_..Top Gun _was about Navy pilots--not sailors ...._Officer And a Gentleman _was about an officer that wanted to be a pilot.....when you think navy, you usually don't think of pilots

..there has always been inter service rivalry--long before these movies


----------



## evenflow1969

SFC Ollie said:


> Tell you what, you have a problem with the SEALS? Go tell one of them to their face. The rest of us will simply give them the respect they deserve.


I have seen seals get their ass kicked, I have seen marines get thier ass kicked, I have seen profesional fighters get their ass kicked. I use to live four doors down from the first person who ever combined all three UFC belts. I have seen him get his ass kicked. I found that he talked about his losses way more often than his wins! The best policy I have found is that you should have respect for every one around you! You never realy know who is standing next to you! My policy is respect for all, take shit from none!


----------



## Moonglow

What a shame to waist perfectly good elite soldiers on Muslims in the ME doing occupational duty..


----------



## Moonglow

harmonica said:


> smith77 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You cite BUDs like it is the only training SEALs receive.   After BUDs Seals receive massive amounts of training.  I am convinced there is much inter service jealousy because the Navy is often considered the "sexiest" service  by the general public.  Other services do not have block buster movies based on them.  Like "An Officer and a Gentleman" or "Top Gun".
> 
> 
> 
> I've been reading military and war for over 30 years
> I was in the USMC for 8 years
> I never heard the Navy as the ''sexiest''...and I was stationed on a Navy base when _Top Gun _came out
> _..Top Gun _was about Navy pilots--not sailors ...._Officer And a Gentleman _was about an officer that wanted to be a pilot.....when you think navy, you usually don't think of pilots
> 
> ..there has always been inter service rivalry--long before these movies
Click to expand...

All I can tell you is the Navy and Marines are the gayest..But not the Coast Guard cause they ain't married to another male fighting command...


----------

