# The Sons of Confederate Veterans in South Carolina Celebrate Secession - have "Ball"



## rdean (Dec 20, 2010)

Members of South Carolinas NAACP will march in protest of a secession ball in Charleston later this month which will commemorate the 150th anniversary of South Carolinas secession from the Union.

State NAACP leaders held two press conferences Friday, spreading the word they will protest the ball and any other sesquicentennial events that they deem disrespectful.

We are not opposed to observances, said Lonnie Randolph, state president of the NAACP. We are opposed to disrespect.

South Carolina Celebrates Secession | FrumForum







Can you celebrate secession without celebrating slavery? That question seems to be the core tension surrounding the upcoming celebrations of the American Civil Wars 150-year anniversary. The New York Times recently reported on a series of events over the next four years that commemorate the sesquicentennial, including a Secession Ball, a candlelight memorial at Antietam, a parade in Montgomery, Alabama, and a mock swearing-in of the Confederacys would-be president, Jefferson Davis.

But the failure to recognize the role of slavery at all has left several others aghast. Lonnie Randolph, the president of the South Carolina chapter of the NAACP told the New York Times that promoting the Confederacys idea of states rights really refers to their idea of one right  to buy and sell human beings.

Can you celebrate secession without celebrating slavery? | Need to Know

"I am a veteran," Meeks said. "I respect all veterans - even those in the Civil War that fought on the wrong side of slavery.
"I don't agree with what the South had them fighting for. But this is America. I am an American. They have the freedom of speech. Freedom of expression."
Melvin Poole, another veteran who happens to be president of the Rock Hill branch of the NAACP, will be in Charleston marching against the ball that will celebrate those who fought to preserve slavery.
This in a state where the Confederate flag still flies in front of the Statehouse, reminding every black and white person of this state's slave past - and its inability to put that past behind it.
"What this group is doing is offensive," Poole said. "They can do it. That doesn't mean they should do it."

YORK COUNTY | Black veterans: We fought for right to celebrate secession - wrong or right | The Herald - Rock Hill, SC


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## rdean (Dec 20, 2010)

Virginia Gov. Robert F. McDonnell issued a proclamation in April 2010 declaring it Confederate History Month in the commonwealth. The declaration, which had been refused under Democratic governors, was not well received by many Virginia residents, including Sheila Johson, a prominent African American backer from 2008. She described the proclamation as "academically flawed and personally offensive." 

Virginia Gov. Robert F. McDonnell's original Confederate History Month Proclamation

I think it's hilarious that Sheila poured money into Bob's campaign and then, once he won, slapped her across the face - BAM!  Sheila said she is through with politics and will never back another candidate again.  Well, that's what a black woman get's for backing a white Republican in Virginia.  Who didn't see THAT coming?  Duh!


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## rdean (Dec 21, 2010)

"Because the business community wouldn't stand for it," he said. "You heard of the Citizens Councils? Up north they think it was like the KKK. Where I come from it was an organization of town leaders. In Yazoo City they passed a resolution that said anybody who started a chapter of the Klan would get their ass run out of town. If you had a job, you'd lose it. If you had a store, they'd see nobody shopped there. We didn't have a problem with the Klan in Yazoo City."
In interviews Barbour doesn't have much to say about growing up in the midst of the civil rights revolution. "I just don't remember it as being that bad," he said. "I remember Martin Luther King came to town, in '62. He spoke out at the old fairground and it was full of people, black and white."

44 - Haley Barbour: I don't remember the civil rights era being that bad

Yglesias  Yazoo City Citizens&#8217; Council Was a White Supremacist Organization

It was actually called, "The WHITE Citizens Council".

This guy wants to be president and he says the south "wasn't so bad".

He said he went to an integrated university, yea, the year black students had to be escorted in by Federal Marshals to keep them safe.

The beginning of the Republicans rewriting history, preparing Hally for a run to the WHITE House?


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## Mr Natural (Dec 21, 2010)

Letting those inbred imeciles back into the union was the biggest mistake we ever made.


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## RetiredGySgt (Dec 21, 2010)

Your title says Republicans, be so kind as to provide evidence that the Ball is financed, run by or organized by Republicans. Then provide evidence that A0 only Republicans attended or B) the vast majority in attendance were Republicans. 

You see dumb fuck I read your link and NOT IN A SINGLE sentence is Republican mentioned AT ALL.


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## Truthmatters (Dec 21, 2010)

Do you really think they are democrats?


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## RetiredGySgt (Dec 21, 2010)

Truthmatters said:


> Do you really think they are democrats?



Provide evidence you sack of lying filth


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## Intense (Dec 21, 2010)

Corrected Title. True Sponsors named.


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## rdean (Dec 21, 2010)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> > Do you really think they are democrats?
> ...



Oh man, you are hilarious.

Here, you can check out notable members:

Sons of Confederate Veterans - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now what's funny, there are SCVs in congress including Mitch McConnell and Joe Wilson.  There were a number of notable Democrats, but they were before 1969 and most of them proclaim themselves as "strict segregationists". And one black.

Now this, about SCV Bob McDonnell is especially hilarious:

McDonnell's Confederate History Month proclamation irks civil rights leaders

RICHMOND -- Gov. Robert F. McDonnell, reviving a controversy that had been dormant for eight years, has declared that April will be Confederate History Month in Virginia, a move that angered civil rights leaders Tuesday but that political observers said would strengthen his position with his conservative base.

This is where is gets hilarious:

Sheila Johnson condemns Gov. McDonnell 
This just in: Sheila Johnson, billionaire co-founder of Black Entertainment Television who endorsed Gov. Robert F. McDonnell (R-Va.) just sent me the following statement on "Confederate History Month."

PostPartisan - Sheila Johnson condemns Gov. McDonnell

You see, Sheila Johnson poured money into the campaign of Gov. McDonnell and the very first thing he did on his first day in office was to slap her face to ways to Sunday (metaphorically speaking).

If the membership of an organization is all Republicans, then it's a "Republican" organization.  How could it not be?  The membership of the Republican Log Cabin is all gays, so it is definitely a "gay group", but is it a "Republican" group?  They think they are.  But do other Republicans?  Republicans will be much quicker to includes SCV members then they would "log cabin".


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 21, 2010)

Be they R's or D's, to celebrate a war which cost the lives of over half a million Americans is despicable.
Anyone who has walked the field of battle at Gettysburg and read the headstones, or any National Cemetery where men and women lie having given their lives for the Union, realize that the Sons of Confederate Veterans totally disrespect those who died defending The Union - in all wars, before, during and after the Civil War.


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## Flopper (Dec 21, 2010)

There was a time when southern states celebrated Confederate Memorial Day instead of Independence Day.  We have made some progress, but hatred dies hard.


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## manifold (Dec 21, 2010)

I think it's very possible to celebrate secession without celebrating slavery.

Afterall, we're not actually celebrating Native American genocide every year when we celebrate Thanksgiving.  Are we?


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## Skull Pilot (Dec 21, 2010)

People have the right to peaceably assemble even if you disagree with them.

Get over it.


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## M14 Shooter (Dec 21, 2010)

Wry Catcher said:


> Be they R's or D's, to celebrate a war which cost the lives of over half a million Americans is despicable.
> Anyone who has walked the field of battle at Gettysburg and read the headstones, or any National Cemetery where men and women lie having given their lives for the Union, realize that the Sons of Confederate Veterans totally disrespect those who died defending The Union - in all wars, before, during and after the Civil War.


Funny...  I've done all that, and more - and came to -exactly- the opposite conclusion.


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## M14 Shooter (Dec 21, 2010)

rdean said:


> If the membership of an organization is all Republicans, then it's a "Republican" organization.


Is the membership all Republicans?
Does the same argument apply to NAMBLA?


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## Sunni Man (Dec 21, 2010)

Both sides in the Civil War were patriotic Americans who had different visions of what our nation should be and what the Constitution said.

Thus, both Union and Confederate soldiers should be honored as true American Hero's.


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## manifold (Dec 21, 2010)

Sunni Man said:


> Both sides in the Civil War were patriotic Americans who had different visions of what our nation should be and what Constitution said.
> 
> Thus, both Union and Confederate soldiers should be honored as true American Hero's.



yup


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## PoliticalChic (Dec 21, 2010)

rdean said:


> Members of South Carolinas NAACP will march in protest of a secession ball in Charleston later this month which will commemorate the 150th anniversary of South Carolinas secession from the Union.
> 
> State NAACP leaders held two press conferences Friday, spreading the word they will protest the ball and any other sesquicentennial events that they deem disrespectful.
> 
> ...



And what Governor of Arkansas made the Saturday before Easter "Confederate Flag Day"?
The Arkansas Code, Section 1-5-107. Confederate Flag Day.
(a) The Saturday immediately preceding Easter Sunday of each year is designated as "Confederate Flag Day" in this state.
No person, firm, or corporation shall display any Confederate flag or replica thereof in connection with any advertisement of any commercial enterprise, or in any manner for any purpose except to honor the Confederate States of America.
 Any person, firm, or corporation violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and upon conviction shall be fined not less than one hundred dollars ($100) nor more than one thousand dollars ($1,000).

 "In April 1985, Governor Bill Clinton signed Act 985 into law...'
Mark R. Levin on Trent Lott & Moral Outrage on National Review Online


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## rdean (Dec 21, 2010)

M14 Shooter said:


> rdean said:
> 
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> > If the membership of an organization is all Republicans, then it's a "Republican" organization.
> ...



Are you saying NAMBLA is all Republicans?


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## M14 Shooter (Dec 21, 2010)

rdean said:


> M14 Shooter said:
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No...   By your argument, NAMBLA is a Democratic organization.


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## rdean (Dec 21, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> > Members of South Carolinas NAACP will march in protest of a secession ball in Charleston later this month which will commemorate the 150th anniversary of South Carolinas secession from the Union.
> ...



100 evil things are accomplished.  Republicans do 99 of those 100 evil things.  But it's OK, because they found a "Democrat" who also did "1" evil thing.

And so it goes.  The Republicans never rise higher than the lowest bar.

You have to hand it to Democrats, when one of their members, whether it's Rangle or whoever, they punish them.  But Republicans?  Boehner passing out bribes on the House floor just before a vote, Gingrich, Vitter getting a standing ovation after returning from whoring in two states.  The only time Republicans don't rally around their own is when it involves something gay.  Was there a single Republican who criticized the apology to BP?  Imagine if Democrats did that.  Or if one of Obama's daughters became pregnant (if she were a little older).  

It's as if people expect Democrats to have a higher standard.  I say "good".  Democrats should have a higher standard.  I never expect anything from Republicans, not anything worthwhile.  Why should I?  What have the done that anyone would be proud of?


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## rdean (Dec 21, 2010)

M14 Shooter said:


> rdean said:
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Let me ask Mark Foley.


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## manifold (Dec 21, 2010)

M14 Shooter said:


> rdean said:
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And Al Qaeda is a Muslim organization...

...oh wait, they are.


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## M14 Shooter (Dec 21, 2010)

rdean said:


> 100 evil things are accomplished.  Republicans do 99 of those 100 evil things.  But it's OK, because they found a "Democrat" who also did "1" evil thing.
> 
> And so it goes.  The Republicans never rise higher than the lowest bar.
> 
> You have to hand it to Democrats, when one of their members, whether it's Rangle or whoever, they punish them.


This is pure partisan bigotry - especially the last part.


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## M14 Shooter (Dec 21, 2010)

rdean said:


> M14 Shooter said:
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I acceept your concession of the point.


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## PoliticalChic (Dec 21, 2010)

rdean said:


> PoliticalChic said:
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Deanie, didn't you say that Republicans accomplish 6% of evil things???


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## Intense (Dec 21, 2010)

> If the membership of an organization is all Republicans, then it's a "Republican" organization. How could it not be?



One thing has nothing to do with the other. If it is not sanctioned by the Republican Party, it is not part of it. What is wrong with you, man? Are you so blinded by hate that reason has abandoned you? WTF! Grow up.


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## Intense (Dec 21, 2010)

rdean said:


> RetiredGySgt said:
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> > Truthmatters said:
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rdean said:


> M14 Shooter said:
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Are you saying you are the dumbest poster here?


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## Sunni Man (Dec 21, 2010)

rdean, I play racquetball  every sunday afternoon with a group of guys.

We all happen to be regstered Republicans.

Does this make us a "Republican" organization.


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## Baruch Menachem (Dec 21, 2010)

Truthmatters said:


> Do you really think they are democrats?



How do you know either way?    Did you poll them?   

Back 150 years ago, they all were.


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## California Girl (Dec 21, 2010)

Sunni Man said:


> rdean, I play racquetball  every sunday afternoon with a group of guys.
> 
> We all happen to be regstered Republicans.
> 
> Does this make us a "Republican" organization.



You can't be a Republican, you're a Muslim. You must be a Democrat.... even if you are not aware of it.


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## California Girl (Dec 21, 2010)

Truthmatters said:


> Do you really think they are democrats?



Do you really think?


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## Baruch Menachem (Dec 21, 2010)

California Girl said:


> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> > Do you really think they are democrats?
> ...



She is like a little doll, you pull a string and she recites pre recorded messages.   Beep!


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## Sunni Man (Dec 21, 2010)

California Girl said:


> Sunni Man said:
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> > rdean, I play racquetball  every sunday afternoon with a group of guys.
> ...


So voting Republican almost all of my life.

And being a registered Republican don't count.


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## California Girl (Dec 21, 2010)

Sunni Man said:


> California Girl said:
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Nope, you're a Democrat. Clearly you didn't get the meme.


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## Sunni Man (Dec 21, 2010)

California Girl said:


> Nope, you're a Democrat. Clearly you didn't get the memo.



Nooooooooooo!!!!

I don't want to be one of those people!!!

Cause I got a brain.....really I do!!!


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## bodecea (Dec 21, 2010)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Truthmatters said:
> 
> 
> > Do you really think they are democrats?
> ...



Um...Truthmatter asked you a question...didn't make a statement.   You seem to have flipped out over a question.


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## Big Black Dog (Dec 21, 2010)

There's a thing in this country called freedom of speech, freedom to gather and on and on and on.  Sounds like the NAACP is just looking for some press time and ink in the paper.  Most any time now you can look for Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton and the other cockroaches that come out of their holes when the air is ripe with stupidity.  They need their face time with the camera too...  If the NAACP really wanted to bring attention to this silly afair, they would simply ignore it.  Except for the people that are actually going to go to the ball, nobody else really gives a shit about it.


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## rdean (Dec 21, 2010)

Big Black Dog said:


> There's a thing in this country called freedom of speech, freedom to gather and on and on and on.  Sounds like the NAACP is just looking for some press time and ink in the paper.  Most any time now you can look for Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton and the other cockroaches that come out of their holes when the air is ripe with stupidity.  They need their face time with the camera too...  If the NAACP really wanted to bring attention to this silly afair, they would simply ignore it.  Except for the people that are actually going to go to the ball, nobody else really gives a shit about it.



And picketing people want to return to the good old days when blacks were slaves and there was no "black" guy in the "WHITE" House is just another way of expressing that "freedom" of speech.  Remember, in the "Confederate South", they would have been either tortured, raped or lynched, and/or combinations of all three.


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## rdean (Dec 21, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> rdean said:
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> > PoliticalChic said:
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No, 6% of scientists are Republican.  Keep up.


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## Care4all (Dec 21, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> > Members of South Carolinas NAACP will march in protest of a secession ball in Charleston later this month which will commemorate the 150th anniversary of South Carolinas secession from the Union.
> ...



got any LEGITIMATE proof of this PC?  i have searched and searched to find something other than rightwing blogs stating such....

i think it could be false....?


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## rdean (Dec 21, 2010)

Sunni Man said:


> rdean, I play racquetball  every sunday afternoon with a group of guys.
> 
> We all happen to be regstered Republicans.
> 
> Does this make us a "Republican" organization.



Interesting question.  Remember when Republicans were saying that BP gave it's largest contributions to Obama?  But it turned out that BP Political Action Committees gave to Republicans 10 to 1.  But it was the "employees", the janitors, the secretaries, the engineers who bundled their contributions and gave to Obama making BP the largest contributer, but the company itself gave nothing to Obama, but still, according to Republicans, BP gave the most to Obama.  Guilt by association.

Remember when Obama was accused of "palling around with terrorists"?  Because Obama served on a "board" supported by a right wing conservative foundation, and because Bill Ayers served on the separate board at the SAME foundation and because Obama visited Ayer's house the same day he visited 40 other houses as part of a Democratic Fundraiser. Because you only have to be associated in passing to make you "part of something".  Again, "Guilt by Association".

But the difference here is that if it weren't for "Southern Confederate Conservative Republicans", there would be no "Confederate Month", no "Slave Ball" or whatever it is.  There would be no talk of secession.  And nearly every southern state has some kind of "Confederate Celebration" with about 99.999999999999999999% whites and about 1 or 2 blacks and a lot a angry blacks protesting.


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## rdean (Dec 21, 2010)

Care4all said:


> PoliticalChic said:
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> > rdean said:
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Without looking it up, I seem to remember it's true.  But I could be wrong.  So long ago.


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## Sunni Man (Dec 21, 2010)

rdean said:


> But the difference here is that if it weren't for "Southern Confederate Conservative Republicans", there would be no "Confederate Month", no "Slave Ball" or whatever it is.  There would be no talk of secession.  And nearly every southern state has some kind of "Confederate Celebration" with about 99.999999999999999999% whites and about 1 or 2 blacks and a lot a angry blacks protesting.


*Black Confederates*

t has been estimated that over 65,000 Southern blacks were in the Confederate ranks. Over 13,000 of these, "saw the elephant" also known as meeting the enemy in combat. These Black Confederates included both slave and free. The Confederate Congress did not approve blacks to be officially enlisted as soldiers (except as musicians), until late in the war. But in the ranks it was a different story. Many Confederate officers did not obey the mandates of politicians, they frequently enlisted blacks with the simple criteria, "Will you fight?" Historian Ervin Jordan, explains that "biracial units" were frequently organized "by local Confederate and State militia Commanders in response to immediate threats in the form of Union raids". Dr. Leonard Haynes, an African-American professor at Southern University, stated, "When you eliminate the black Confederate soldier, you've eliminated the history of the South."

As the war came to an end, the Confederacy took progressive measures to build back up its army. The creation of the Confederate States Colored Troops, copied after the segregated northern colored troops, came too late to be successful. Had the Confederacy been successful, it would have created the world's largest armies (at the time) consisting of black soldiers,even larger than that of the North. This would have given the future of the Confederacy a vastly different appearance than what modern day racist or anti-Confederate liberals conjecture. Not only did Jefferson Davis envision black Confederate veterans receiving bounty lands for their service, there would have been no future for slavery after the goal of 300,000 armed black CSA veterans came home after the war.

1. The "Richmond Howitzers" were partially manned by black militiamen. They saw action at 1st Manassas (or 1st Battle of Bull Run) where they operated battery no. 2. In addition two black "regiments", one free and one slave, participated in the battle on behalf of the South. "Many colored people were killed in the action", recorded John Parker, a former slave.

2. At least one Black Confederate was a non-commissioned officer. James Washington, Co. D 35th Texas Cavalry,  Confederate States Army, became it's 3rd Sergeant. Higher ranking black commissioned officers served in militia units, but this was on the State militia level (Louisiana)and not in the regular C.S. Army.

3. Free black musicians, cooks, soldiers and teamsters earned the same pay as white confederate privates. This was not the case in the Union army where blacks did not receive equal pay. At the Confederate Buffalo Forge in Rockbridge County, Virginia, skilled black workers "earned on average three times the wages of white Confederate soldiers and more than most Confederate army officers ($350- $600 a year).

4. Dr. Lewis Steiner, Chief Inspector of the United States Sanitary Commission while observing Gen. "Stonewall" Jackson's occupation of Frederick, Maryland, in 1862: "Over 3,000 Negroes must be included in this number [Confederate troops]. These were clad in all kinds of uniforms, not only in cast-off or captured United States uniforms, but in coats with Southern buttons, State buttons, etc. These were shabby, but not shabbier or seedier than those worn by white men in the rebel ranks. Most of the Negroes had arms, rifles, muskets, sabers, bowie-knives, dirks, etc.....and were manifestly an integral portion of the Southern Confederate Army."

5. Frederick Douglas reported, "There are at the present moment many Colored men in the Confederate Army doing duty not only as cooks, servants and laborers, but real soldiers, having musket on their shoulders, and bullets in their pockets, ready to shoot down any loyal troops and do all that soldiers may do to destroy the Federal government and build up that of the rebels."

On Black Confederates


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 21, 2010)

manifold said:


> I think it's very possible to celebrate secession without celebrating slavery.
> 
> Afterall, we're not actually celebrating Native American genocide every year when we celebrate Thanksgiving.  Are we?



Red Herring Alert!


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## rdean (Dec 21, 2010)

Sunni Man said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> > But the difference here is that if it weren't for "Southern Confederate Conservative Republicans", there would be no "Confederate Month", no "Slave Ball" or whatever it is.  There would be no talk of secession.  And nearly every southern state has some kind of "Confederate Celebration" with about 99.999999999999999999% whites and about 1 or 2 blacks and a lot a angry blacks protesting.
> ...



Let me get this straight.  The south was fighting to END slavery and what they really wanted to do was GIVE lots of land to the former slaves??????????????????

Slowly lower the match and step away from the bong.


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## Sunni Man (Dec 21, 2010)

rdean said:


> Let me get this straight.  The south was fighting to END slavery and what they really wanted to do was GIVE lots of land to the former slaves??????????????????
> 
> Slowly lower the match and step away from the bong.



Read some history rdean.

It's there for all to see.


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 21, 2010)

Skull Pilot said:


> People have the right to peaceably assemble even if you disagree with them.
> 
> Get over it.



Of course.  We all understand your support of NAMBLA holding peaceful assemply celebrating child molestation.  Correct?


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## Sunni Man (Dec 21, 2010)

*The Sons of Confederate Veterans and United Daughters of the Confederacy dedicate memorials to three black soldiers*

Sunday, September 08, 2002

    The time came for Creed Holland to get the recognition he was due. He was a black slave, but also a Confederate soldier. And for such, Creed Holland was honored Saturday morning at a graveside ceremony in a small cemetery behind Riverview Baptist Church in Rocky Mount. 

    The Jubal Early chapter of the United Daughters of the Confederacy 
dedicated Confederate memorial markers to Creed Holland and two other 
black Confederate soldiers, also named Holland, from Franklin County. 

    Hazel Holland Davis, a member of the Jubal Early chapter and 
great-granddaughter of a Confederate soldier, organized the service as 
part of a chapterwide project to identify Confederate soldiers' graves in 
Franklin County. 

 About 45 Confederate re-enactors and members of the United Daughters of 
the Confederacy and Sons of Confederate Veterans performed the ceremony, 
which included poems, speeches, prayers and customary military funeral rites such as cannonball volleys and rifle shots. 

  William Daniel Holland, great-grandson of Creed Holland, welcomed the 
crowd of about 60 people. He called the service a gathering of all people. 

 Sam Lougheed, Virginia president of the United Daughters of the 
Confederacy, described the three black soldiers as "patriots who loved 
our Southland and suffered in its defense." Lougheed, of Stafford, called 
the three Hollands "Confederate heroes." 

 Brag Bowling, state Commander of the Sons of Confederate Veterans, 
used the service as a platform. 

 "Southern heritage is becoming a cutting social, cultural and 
political issue in the landscape of Virginia," Bowling said. He urged the crowd to back those behind a monument protection bill that would thwart efforts to rename buildings and monuments. 

 Linda Stanley of the Franklin County Historical Society said the 
Confederate government required slaveowners to offer a certain percentage of their slaves to the war effort, possibly explaining the three Holland 
men's involvement in the war. 

 Davis and William Daniel Holland knew of their families' connection. But both families found out about Creed Holland's status as a Confederate 
veteran this year, William Daniel Holland said. 

    Davis, 61, a retired teacher living on her family's Glade Hill farm, 
asked Creed Holland's descendants if they were interested in having a 
Confederate marker and a ceremony at Creed Holland's grave. They agreed. 

  William Daniel Holland, along with his brother John Wayne Holland, 47, a Yokohama tire finisher from Roanoke, and another brother are members of 
the Sons of Confederate Veterans. Their sister, Wanda Holland Chewning, 46, 
an artist living in Penhook, is a member of the United Daughters of the 
Confederacy. 

    Their grandfather Sam Holland, 75, of Glade Hill, a retired worker for 
Fleetwood Homes, appreciated the ceremony for Creed Holland. "I'm glad they 
remember him," he said. 

    At the end of the ceremony, Sons of Confederate Veterans Commander 
Robert "Red" Barbour presented a folded Confederate flag to Sam Holland as 
Creed Holland's oldest known living relative. 

    The second part of the ceremony ended at Davis' Glade Hill farm off 
Virginia 40. There, Daughters members placed two magnolia wreaths for 
Cornelius and Claiborne Holland in the Holland family cemetery. (Sadly), Davis cannot find descendants of the two, or their graves.

http://www.scvcamp469-nbf.com/hollandservice.ht


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## M14 Shooter (Dec 21, 2010)

Wry Catcher said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > People have the right to peaceably assemble even if you disagree with them.
> ...


The ACLU supports peacefull assembly for NAMBLA as well as the KKK.
Why can't you?
Or does "free speech' only include things that you don't find offensive?


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## M14 Shooter (Dec 21, 2010)

rdean said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > On Black Confederates
> ...


Did you have an actual counter to the facts he presented or were you just going to pretend that your response effectivly deals with it?


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## rdean (Dec 21, 2010)

Sunni Man said:


> *The Sons of Confederate Veterans and United Daughters of the Confederacy dedicate memorials to three black soldiers*
> 
> Sunday, September 08, 2002
> 
> ...



Of course it's not surprising there would be blacks in the Confederate Army.  Some, I'm sure, were forced, but others?  It's all they knew.  It's how they were raised.  Look at the terrible and disgusting things today's confederates say about liberals and Democrats.  We can only guess what they were saying about the "evil" North.

The union soldiers would come down and eat your children?  I have no doubt.  

But there is no way the south was fighting so they could give former slaves "land". That's ridiculous.  Even worse than the wholly invented "Reagan Legacy".


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## Sunni Man (Dec 21, 2010)

*Forgotten History: BLACK SLAVE OWNERS and BLACK CONFEDERATES*

Few people consider that there were more free blacks in the Confederate States, than in the Union States at the start of the Civil War, (261,918 in the South/226,152 in the North). These are items that are often conveniently left out of history books and text books.

*Thousands of "free" blacks fought on the side of the Confederates. * The evidence of such service is found in POW (Prisoner of War) records, gravestones, period photographs, pension documents, Official Records of the war, Congressional Testimony, and the Slave Narratives.

Large numbers of free southern Negroes owned black slaves; in fact, in numbers disproportionate to their representation in society at large.

In 1860 only a small minority of whites owned slaves. According to the U.S. census report for that last year before the Civil War, there were nearly 27 million whites in the country. Some eight million of them lived in the slaveholding states.

The census also determined that there were fewer than 385,000 individuals who owned slaves (1). Even if all slaveholders had been white, that would amount to only 1.4 percent of whites in the country (or 4.8 percent of southern whites owning one or more slaves).


*In 1860 there were at least six Negroes in Louisiana who owned 65 or more slaves* The largest number, 152 slaves, were owned by the widow C. Richards and her son P.C. Richards, who owned a large sugar cane plantation. Another Negro slave magnate in Louisiana, with over 100 slaves, was Antoine Dubuclet, a sugar planter whose estate was valued at (in 1860 dollars) $264,000 (3). That year, the mean wealth of southern white men was $3,978 (4).


In Charleston, SC in 1860, 125 free Negroes owned slaves; six of them owning 10 or more. Of the $1.5 million in taxable property owned by free Negroes in Charleston, more than $300,000 represented slave holdings (5). In North Carolina 69 free Negroes were slave owners (6). In 1860 William Ellison was South Carolina's largest Negro slaveowner.


Black Confederates and Afro-Yankees in Civil War Virginia (University Press of Virginia-1995) was written by Ervin L. Jordan Jr., an African-American and assistant professor and associate curator of the Special Collections Department, University of Virginia library. He wrote: "One of the more curious aspects of the free black existence in Virginia was their ownership of slaves. Black slave masters owned members of their family and freed them in their wills. Free blacks were encouraged to sell themselves into slavery and had the right to choose their owner through a lengthy court procedure."

William Ellison, a black slave owner, was so successful, due to his utilization of cheap slave labor, that many white competitors went out of business. Such situations discredit impressions that whites dealt only with other whites. Where money was involved, it was apparent that neither Ellison's race or former status were considerations. In 1840 he owned 30 slaves, and by 1860 he owned 63. His sons, who lived in homes on the property, owned an additional nine slaves.

*In the city of Charleston alone in 1861 the population of slaves reached up to almost 18,000. Up to 3,000 of these slaves were owned by black masters. 
*

Black Slave owners such as Richard Dereef and his brother Joseph Dereef owned ten different plantations with numerous acres of land. These slave masters alone owned 1,000 slaves.


*Over 65,000 free blacks joined the Confederate Army and Navy* with 13,000 soldiers and 1,650 sailors actually being in combat against the North. Black historians Evrin Jordan and Edward Smith have published books on this.


There were monuments to Black Confederate veterans built, there were Black Confederate Veterans groups,and Black Confederate veterans received pensions. *The first Civil War monument to black soldiers at Arlington National Cemetery was to black Confederates.* 

There are currently several groups of Black Confederate Civil War re-enactors active in southern states.

Some of the Confederate regiments with known black soldiers:
6thTennessee Cavalry 
14thTennessee Infantry
40th Georgia Infantry
37th Texas Calvary
2ndKentucky Cavalry 2ndNorth Carolina Artillery
3rdNorth Carolina Artillery
13th Virginia Cavalry
18th Virginia Infantry
16th Virginia Infantry
13th Louisiana Infantry


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## rdean (Dec 21, 2010)

M14 Shooter said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



Facts?

That the south was fighting the war to free blacks and give them land?  Seriously?  Is there really an argument in there somewhere?  Say it out loud and tell me it makes sense to you.

AFTER THE WAR, THE SOUTH WAS GOING TO FREE THE SLAVES AND GIVE THEM LAND.

I couldn't say the words without laughing.

If the Confederates had won the Civil War:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWtbfx7LJdM[/ame]


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## M14 Shooter (Dec 21, 2010)

rdean said:


> Of course it's not surprising there would be blacks in the Confederate Army.  Some, I'm sure, were forced, but others?  It's all they knew.  It's how they were raised.  Look at the terrible and disgusting things today's confederates say about liberals and Democrats.  We can only guess what they were saying about the "evil" North.
> 
> The union soldiers would come down and eat your children?  I have no doubt.
> 
> But there is no way the south was fighting so they could give former slaves "land". That's ridiculous.  Even worse than the wholly invented "Reagan Legacy".


What makes you think you have any capacity to understand why a colored person might fight for the confederacy, or that your lack of said ability, and its resulting lack of understanding, diminishes the validity of those reasons?

Hundreds of thousands of Confederate soldiers for for the South for reaons that had nothing to do with slavery -- why do you presume those reasons could not motivate free Negroes to do the same?


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## M14 Shooter (Dec 21, 2010)

rdean said:


> M14 Shooter said:
> 
> 
> > rdean said:
> ...


Yes.  He listed several.
Did you have anything to refute them, or are you going to just pretend they arent there?


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## Sunni Man (Dec 21, 2010)

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GVIAypsnh8[/ame]


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## Sunni Man (Dec 21, 2010)

M14 Shooter said:


> Yes.  He listed several.
> Did you have anything to refute them, or are you going to just pretend they arent there?


rdean hates "real" history.

Then he has to think.

And that gives him a headache.


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## Immanuel (Dec 21, 2010)

I think it is entirely possible to celebrate one's heritage and yet not be proud of all of it.  I am an American Citizen.  I was born in California, but my family was from the south.  I am not proud of the role the South had in preserving that evil institution.  What I find sad is to read those who speak so highly of the North, completely ignore the fact that the North really did not give a shit about ending slavery.  The North fought to preserve the union, not end slavery.  The end of slavery was just one of those good byproducts of a terrible war.

One can celebrate one's heritage and not be thrilled with everything about it.

Those of us who are U.S. Citizens and Caucasian, should we be "proud" of what we did to the Natives that lived here before we came?  I'm not, yet I still love my country.  I am still glad to be called an American Citizen and I am still proud of who I am.

Immie


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## rdean (Dec 21, 2010)

Sunni Man said:


> *Forgotten History: BLACK SLAVE OWNERS and BLACK CONFEDERATES*
> 
> Few people consider that there were more free blacks in the Confederate States, than in the Union States at the start of the Civil War, (261,918 in the South/226,152 in the North). These are items that are often conveniently left out of history books and text books.
> 
> ...



Forgotten History: BLACK SLAVE OWNERS and BLACK CONFEDERATES

So you post from another forum and the point you want to make is, wait, what is the point you want to make?

Is it because there were some blacks who were slaveholders slavery was OK?  

Why did so many slaves escape to the north if the south was so "great"?

And, worst of all, even today, many Christians approve of slavery because it's approved in the Bible:

Jesus talking to Timothy:  Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed.  If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful.  You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts.  Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them.  (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

Thanks God we have laws.

Historians and the extent of slave ownership in the Southern United States. By Otto H. Olsen :: Southern History :: Formerly known as Everyday in Tennessee

In accordance with the customary emphasis, historians often include all of the slave states in their statistical presentations. If o*ne is interested in the deterministic impact of slavery, however, it would appear more appropriate to consider o*nly the Confederate states, where fully 31 percent of the white families owned slaves in 1860. Thus every third white person in those states had a direct commitment to slavery and, barring occasional dissidents, had cause to be a supporter and propagandist for that system. This appears to be an amazingly large, rather than small base of support for any economic order, and the figures are more impressive when we consider the seven states of the lower South in the precise order of their secession from the Union: South Carolina with 48.7 percent of the white families owning slaves; Mississippi with 48 percent; Florida with 36 percent; Alabama with 35.1 percent; Georgia with 38 percent; Louisiana with 32.2 percent; and Texas with 28.5 percent.

Oops, suddenly an entirely different story is being written.


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## Sunni Man (Dec 21, 2010)

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8hPo6mYnks[/ame]


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## rdean (Dec 21, 2010)

rdean said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > *Forgotten History: BLACK SLAVE OWNERS and BLACK CONFEDERATES*
> ...



Is Sunni Man suggesting that southern blacks "miss" slavery?


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## rdean (Dec 21, 2010)

Sunni Man said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8hPo6mYnks



So how come no one asked him if his family were "slave owners"?


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## Sunni Man (Dec 21, 2010)

I am just posting "real" history rdean.

Not the PC nonsense that the liberal left insists we must believe.


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## Sunni Man (Dec 21, 2010)

rdean said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8hPo6mYnks
> ...


Good point rdean.

You should ask him that question.


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## Dont Taz Me Bro (Dec 21, 2010)

Liesmatters said:


> Do you really think they are democrats?



Yeah, I would guess many of them are actually given that in order to be a member of Sons of Confederate Veterans you have to be a descendant of a Confederate veteran, who were all Democrats.

Of course, I don't see why anyone's political affiliation even matters since the gathering has nothing to do with modern day politics whatsoever, but rather American history and heritage of the people whose families have been here for generations.


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## California Girl (Dec 22, 2010)

Sunni Man said:


> California Girl said:
> 
> 
> > Nope, you're a Democrat. Clearly you didn't get the memo.
> ...



There is a very painless procedure where you will be assimilated into the borg that is today's Democrat Party. After which, you will have no brain and all your opinions will be provided via the HuffPuff and MediaMatters. It's great, saves you having to think about stuff.


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## Old Rocks (Dec 29, 2010)

Ah, and one can be so intelligent reading and listening to the likes of Limpbaugh and Coulter.


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## rdean (Dec 29, 2010)

California Girl said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > California Girl said:
> ...



So you see slavery as a "good" thing?  Or you just like the "decorative" flag?


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## editec (Dec 29, 2010)

So the CSA just loved their good Blacks, eh?

Is_ that_ the story?

Some of you guys will believe anything, won't you?


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