# N. Korea fires on S. Korea - It was a clear provocation!!



## xomputer

> Report: N. Korea fires on S. Korea, injuring at least 4 - CNN.com
> North Korea on Tuesday fired artillery into the sea near its tense western sea border with South Korea, injuring at least four South Korean soldiers, the Yonhap news agency reported.
> 
> Some of the artillery landed directly on an inhabited island, and South Korea's military returned fire, Yonhap said, citing Col. Lee Bung-woo, spokesman for the South's Joint Chiefs of Staff.
> 
> The firing began about 2:30 p.m. local time. The South Korean army raised its alert condition and braced for any possible fire, the report said.
> 
> Images of plumes of smoke were quickly broadcast on Yonhap television, but it was not immediately clear what the artillery had hit



It was a clear provocation!!!


----------



## Ozmar

Report: N. Korea fires on S. Korea, injuring at least 6 - CNN.com


> Seoul, South Korea (CNN) -- North Korea on Tuesday fired artillery into the sea near its tense western sea border with South Korea, injuring at least four South Korean soldiers and two civilians, the Yonhap news agency reported.
> At least 200 rounds of artillery hit an inhabited South Korean island after the North started firing about 2:30 p.m. local time, Yonhap said.
> South Korea's military responded with 80 rounds of artillery and deployed fighter jets to counter the fire, the report said.


----------



## Moon

north Korea will soon collapse under the weight of its own criminal and incompetent regime, and the south will have to pick up the pieces of whatever's left.  I only hope the thugs running the abomination known as the People's Republic of Korea have the minimum amount of class required to go out alone, and not try to take any innocents with them.  The sooner they go, the better for the civilized world.


----------



## USArmyRetired

This is serious. Bases were attacked and people have been killed. Fighters have been scrambled. It's not the 3am call that Hillary talked about but it's close enough. Here is a link with pictures of the shelling and it looks bad.

Scroll down in thread for pics and this thread has good sources:

N. Korea fires artillery towards S. Korean island, official says(houses destroyed, fire broke out)

http://twitter.com/breakingnews


----------



## xomputer

North Korea fired dozens of artilley shells at the South Korea island of Yeonpyeong, off the west coast of the Korean peninsula.
Dozens of houses are on fire after the shelling and the South Korea military is now trying to determine the degree of damage.
Yeonpyeong is burning up in flames right now.

The North has continuously carried out provocative actions against South Korea, but an outright artilley shelling is unprecedented Basically, a wartime provocation has now occurred in Yeonpyeong.

South Korean military has returned fire abiding by the engagement rules, and is now analyzing the North's motives.
Why the North carried out such an action is irrelevant now.
The important issue is that North Korea intentionally carried out an organized attack.

This might be a warning against the South Korean military's "Hoguk" training, which started yesterday.
However, firing artilley shells against the Sough during midday is clearly an act of war.
North Korea must take responsibility for this action and the global community, along with South Korea, should seek effective retaliation measures.


----------



## DiveCon

Two Koreas exchange fire across maritime border - Yahoo! News


----------



## DiveCon

North Korea fires artillery onto island, South says as it scrambles fighter jets


----------



## Reasoning

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YYCUhX4h5g[/ame]


----------



## Reasoning

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YYCUhX4h5g[/ame]


----------



## DiveCon

Ozmar said:


> Report: N. Korea fires on S. Korea, injuring at least 6 - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> Seoul, South Korea (CNN) -- North Korea on Tuesday fired artillery into the sea near its tense western sea border with South Korea, injuring at least four South Korean soldiers and two civilians, the Yonhap news agency reported.
> At least 200 rounds of artillery hit an inhabited South Korean island after the North started firing about 2:30 p.m. local time, Yonhap said.
> South Korea's military responded with 80 rounds of artillery and deployed fighter jets to counter the fire, the report said.
Click to expand...

there is another thread on this
but this one has the better title


----------



## elvis

merged.


----------



## JBeukema




----------



## USArmyRetired

This is Obama's 3am call. I bet he slept throught it!!!


----------



## martybegan

The Cold War may have been tense, but I don't recall artillery ever being flung by either side over the Inter-German Border.

Either the NK's are really pushing for some sort of payoff, or they have finally gone completely batshit insane and are ready for a war.


----------



## rightwinger

North Korea is throwing another hissy fit as they seek attention. The South is more than capable of handling this incident. They always have


----------



## WillowTree

Don't ya'll libruls hurt a hair on nary a North Korean's head ya hear? I'm sure they done this cause South Korea has raped their women and pillaged their villages and squandered all of their resources. Now the way libruls see it NK is well validated in it's complaints and if you don't think so you're a racist. 

Make em some mo tea libruls.


----------



## AmericanFirst

Obama is ball less, he will not do anything.


----------



## ba1614

AmericanFirst said:


> Obama is ball less, he will not do anything.



Wrong, he'll think about it for at least a week, then fuck it up somehow!


----------



## Two Thumbs

AmericanFirst said:


> Obama is ball less, he will not do anything.




There's nothing for us or him to do.

Unless NK invades SK we have to sit and hope for the best.  Even the SK Pres said to use restaint.


----------



## Two Thumbs

I said over year ago when it came out the Jung was sick and may die soon, that he would not die alone.

When he gets to what he feels is near death, millions will die.


----------



## rightwinger

Two Thumbs said:


> AmericanFirst said:
> 
> 
> 
> Obama is ball less, he will not do anything.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There's nothing for us or him to do.
> 
> Unless NK invades SK we have to sit and hope for the best.  Even the SK Pres said to use restaint.
Click to expand...


It is easy for Americans to puff up their chests and scream Invade!  Bomb the shit out of them!

But it is the South Koreans who will do the fighting and dying. They have dealt with these provocations from the north for decades and they know what the appropriate response should be.


----------



## WillowTree

rightwinger said:


> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmericanFirst said:
> 
> 
> 
> Obama is ball less, he will not do anything.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There's nothing for us or him to do.
> 
> Unless NK invades SK we have to sit and hope for the best.  Even the SK Pres said to use restaint.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It is easy for Americans to puff up their chests and scream Invade!  Bomb the shit out of them!
> 
> But it is the South Koreans who will do the fighting and dying. They have dealt with these provocations from the north for decades and they know what the appropriate response should be.
Click to expand...


Then why pray tell are we even over there?


----------



## Valerie

> ...a deadly artillery attack on South Korean territory, causing its neighbour to return fire and scramble F-16 fighters.
> 
> Two South Korean marines died, and at least 12 were wounded. There were reports of civilian injuries and houses were set ablaze as scores of shells fell on Yeonpyeong island.
> 
> A North Korea expert at Beijing's Central Party School, Zhang Liangui, told the Herald that Kim Jong-un was deliberately destabilising the environment in order to mobilise the military and consolidate his power.
> 
> The South Korean President, Lee Myung-bak, held an emergency meeting and told officials to ''respond sternly'' but to avoid aggravating the situation. The military were placed on high alert.
> 
> North Korea accused South Korea of firing first. ''The South Korean enemy, despite our repeated warnings, committed reckless military provocations of firing artillery shells into our maritime territory near Yeonpyeong island,'' the military supreme command said.
> 
> The north's military ''will continue to make merciless military attacks with no hesitation if the South Korean enemy dares to invade our sea territory by 0.001 mm'', it said in the statement carried by the official news agency. ''It is our military's traditional response to quell provocative actions with a merciless thunderbolt.''
> 
> There have been previous skirmishes along the border - including the deaths of 46 South Korean sailors when the corvette Cheonan was torpedoed on March 26 - but the stakes are getting higher.
> 
> The exchange follows the revelation last week of a hitherto unknown North Korean uranium enrichment plant to a visiting US scientist. Siegfried Hecker, who previously directed the Los Alamos National Laboratory, told The New York Times he had been ''stunned'' by the plant's sophistication. North Korea said it was operating 2000 centrifuges.
> 
> If verified, this would take Pyongyang towards creating a far more powerful arsenal than the estimated eight to 12 plutonium-based warheads that have been built over the past five years.
> 
> The US special representative for North Korea, Stephen Bosworth, arrived in Beijing last night to brief officials on North Korea's new enrichment facilities.
> 
> Chinese North Korea specialists believe the brinkmanship is designed to mobilise the country around the anointed successor of Kim Jong-il, his son Kim Jong-un.
> 
> A Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman expressed ''concern'' at yesterday's attack and warned against further escalation. He said it was ''imperative'' that six-nation talks aimed at ending North Korea's nuclear ambitions be resumed.
> 
> A French diplomatic source said the United Nations Security Council would hold an emergency session.
> 
> The White House said it was ''firmly committed to the defence'' of its ally, Seoul.
> 
> ...



North Korean dictator-in-waiting linked to deadly artillery attack


----------



## rightwinger

WillowTree said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There's nothing for us or him to do.
> 
> Unless NK invades SK we have to sit and hope for the best.  Even the SK Pres said to use restaint.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is easy for Americans to puff up their chests and scream Invade!  Bomb the shit out of them!
> 
> But it is the South Koreans who will do the fighting and dying. They have dealt with these provocations from the north for decades and they know what the appropriate response should be.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then why pray tell are we even over there?
Click to expand...


Have they been invaded in the last 50 years?

Are you saying the US Army is not doing any good unless they actually go to war?


----------



## Valerie

> North Koreas attack on a civilian- populated South Korean island drew rebukes from the U.S. and European governments along with warnings that the exchange of artillery fire threatened regional peace.
> 
> South Korea scrambled fighter jets and returned artillery fire after North Korea provoked the peninsulas most serious confrontation in decades by lobbing dozens of shells onto Yeonpyeong island, located near the border of both countries on the peninsulas west coast. The shelling killed two South Korean soldiers and wounded at least 14.
> 
> The United States strongly condemns this attack and calls on North Korea to halt its belligerent action, the White House said today in a statement. *The U.S., which stations about 25,000 troops in South Korea*, is in contact with Seouls government, the statement said.
> 
> Tensions with North Korea have risen in the past year after the sinking of a South Korean warship, the Cheonan, in March that killed 46 sailors. President Barack Obama dispatched his envoy, Stephen Bosworth, to Asia this week after reports by a U.S. scientist that North Korea had revealed a new uranium- enrichment plant.
> 
> North Korea is seeking to extract concessions from countries that oppose its nuclear program, said Jan Techau, an analyst at the NATO Defense College in Rome.


North Korea's Attack on Southern Island Draws Criticism From U.S., Europe - Bloomberg


----------



## slackjawed

Well, now the south says they will launch "massive retaliation" if attacked again. This is escalating pretty quickly.


----------



## editec

The leadershup of N Korea is desperate.

They need a war to continue to rationalize their own military authoritarian state.


----------



## GHook93

I read that Obama got the 3 am call, he answered it and said, "North Korea did what? Fuck it I'm going back to bed! Michelle take the call and tell them what to do. Everyone knows you have the ballz in this family!" 



USArmyRetired said:


> This is serious. Bases were attacked and people have been killed. Fighters have been scrambled. It's not the 3am call that Hillary talked about but it's close enough. Here is a link with pictures of the shelling and it looks bad.
> 
> Scroll down in thread for pics and this thread has good sources:
> 
> N. Korea fires artillery towards S. Korean island, official says(houses destroyed, fire broke out)
> 
> Breaking News (BreakingNews) on Twitter


----------



## georgephillip

rightwinger said:


> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is easy for Americans to puff up their chests and scream Invade!  Bomb the shit out of them!
> 
> But it is the South Koreans who will do the fighting and dying. They have dealt with these provocations from the north for decades and they know what the appropriate response should be.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then why pray tell are we even over there?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Have they been invaded in the last 50 years?
> 
> Are you saying the US Army is not doing any good unless they actually go to war?
Click to expand...

Why did the US Army invade and occupy South Korea after World War II ended, and the Japanese were defeated?

How many North Koreans have died since then from US bombs?


----------



## GHook93

AmericanFirst said:


> Obama is ball less, he will not do anything.



Not true! He might make a speech and/or send little Kim a letter! He will probably act like Hans Bliss!

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b49Iwfp8U-U[/ame]


----------



## Dont Taz Me Bro

AmericanFirst said:


> Obama is ball less, he will not do anything.



Why does Obama have to do something?


----------



## rightwinger

editec said:


> The leadershup of N Korea is desperate.
> 
> They need a war to continue to rationalize their own military authoritarian state.



North Korea cannot afford a full scale war that lasts more than a couple of days. They do not have the international credit to pay for fuel, food, ammunition and other logistics support required for a sustained war.

They will do what they always do....lob a few shells and then declare victory


----------



## Soggy in NOLA

Looks like Mini-Elvis is having a tantrum... again.


----------



## GHook93

rightwinger said:


> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmericanFirst said:
> 
> 
> 
> Obama is ball less, he will not do anything.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There's nothing for us or him to do.
> 
> Unless NK invades SK we have to sit and hope for the best.  Even the SK Pres said to use restaint.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It is easy for Americans to puff up their chests and scream Invade!  Bomb the shit out of them!
> 
> But it is the South Koreans who will do the fighting and dying. They have dealt with these provocations from the north for decades and they know what the appropriate response should be.
Click to expand...


Militarily (if it comes to that) a lot more can be done than invade! Moving our aircraft carriers and battleships into position (even provoking attacks). Hitting their nuclear capabilities. Taking out their military capabilities. Then allowing South Korea to invade and unify Korea under a capitalistic, democratic and 1st world industrialized nation! Assisting South Korea by shelling NK's military capacities (plants, bases, air strips, planes, military bases etc.)

We don't have to send one troop in!


----------



## GHook93

georgephillip said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then why pray tell are we even over there?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have they been invaded in the last 50 years?
> 
> Are you saying the US Army is not doing any good unless they actually go to war?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why did the US Army invade and occupy South Korea after World War II ended, and the Japanese were defeated?
> 
> How many North Koreans have died since then from US bombs?
Click to expand...


Yea we're assholes, we just liberated South Korea into becoming a free, democratic, highly advanced, highly technological, 1st world, wealth, industrialized nation! 

While North Korea mass murdered and starved it's own people and has never advanced one inche!

Are you really that stupid to believe the shit sandwich you try to peddle? You are a true dumb fuck!


----------



## mdn2000

Ozmar said:


> Report: N. Korea fires on S. Korea, injuring at least 6 - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> Seoul, South Korea (CNN) -- North Korea on Tuesday fired artillery into the sea near its tense western sea border with South Korea, injuring at least four South Korean soldiers and two civilians, the Yonhap news agency reported.
> At least 200 rounds of artillery hit an inhabited South Korean island after the North started firing about 2:30 p.m. local time, Yonhap said.
> South Korea's military responded with 80 rounds of artillery and deployed fighter jets to counter the fire, the report said.
Click to expand...


Too bad Bush let this sore fester.


----------



## rightwinger

GHook93 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There's nothing for us or him to do.
> 
> Unless NK invades SK we have to sit and hope for the best.  Even the SK Pres said to use restaint.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is easy for Americans to puff up their chests and scream Invade!  Bomb the shit out of them!
> 
> But it is the South Koreans who will do the fighting and dying. They have dealt with these provocations from the north for decades and they know what the appropriate response should be.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hey numbnutz, a lot more can be done that invade! Moving out aircraft carriers and battleships into position. Hitting their nuclear capabilities. Taking out their military capabilities. Then allowing South Korea to invade and unify Korea under a capitalistic, democratuc and 1st world industrialized nation! Assisting South Korea by shelling NK's military capacities (plants, bases, air strips, planes, military bases etc.)
> 
> We don't have to send one troop!
Click to expand...


It is the South Koreans who will do the dying in such an invasion. That is why they should have the primary decision on how much of a provocation they can accept. 

It sure is easy for Americans to say "bomb them, impose capitalistic democracy on them" when others are doing the dying. Didn't we just go through this in Iraq?  Sure, invade, impose a democracy and let the Iraqi people  suffer the 100,000 casualties

And numbnutz, your military tactics need some updating. We no longer have Battleships


----------



## Jeremy

The possibility of war breaking out there is some scary ass shit. And don't make believe for one fucking second that China won't match our moves if it does break out. The last thing we want is to see is a war with a country that is backed by a military superpower with ICBM's trained at our cities.

But Rightwinger made a great point. This won't amount to much. The north does not have the capabilities to fight a sustained conflict without outside support.


----------



## Jeremy

mdn2000 said:


> Ozmar said:
> 
> 
> 
> Report: N. Korea fires on S. Korea, injuring at least 6 - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> Seoul, South Korea (CNN) -- North Korea on Tuesday fired artillery into the sea near its tense western sea border with South Korea, injuring at least four South Korean soldiers and two civilians, the Yonhap news agency reported.
> At least 200 rounds of artillery hit an inhabited South Korean island after the North started firing about 2:30 p.m. local time, Yonhap said.
> South Korea's military responded with 80 rounds of artillery and deployed fighter jets to counter the fire, the report said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Too bad Bush let this sore fester.
Click to expand...


Oh for fuck's sake.  Are you high or just stupid?


----------



## Intense

BB-61 IOWA-class 
Overview

Federation of American Scientists :: BB-61 IOWA-class


----------



## rightwinger

Intense said:


> BB-61 IOWA-class
> Overview
> 
> Federation of American Scientists :: BB-61 IOWA-class



The _New Jersey_ is now busy guarding Camden against a possible invasion from Philadelphia


----------



## Intense

rightwinger said:


> Intense said:
> 
> 
> 
> BB-61 IOWA-class
> Overview
> 
> Federation of American Scientists :: BB-61 IOWA-class
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The _New Jersey_ is now busy guarding Camden against a possible invasion from Philadelphia
Click to expand...


I heard a rumor that NY was planing to reclaim Liberty Island.  N.J. suck's any way.


----------



## theHawk

Nice to see the libtards coming out and defending Obama's non-response to this.  NK has already sunk a South Korean sub, and learned then it could attack the South anytime it wants and there will be no retaliation.  This is an act of war, just as much as invading the south would be.

To suggest that South Korea can "handle it" on their own and they can decide if they want to attack the North is idiotic.  The US has been there with the South since after WWII, they aren't going to make any moves without Obama's input.  The South has already stated it will retaliate if there are "further attacks" which means they won't do jack shit about this one.

This is what happens when we have a spineless lib as Prez.


----------



## WillowTree

rightwinger said:


> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is easy for Americans to puff up their chests and scream Invade!  Bomb the shit out of them!
> 
> But it is the South Koreans who will do the fighting and dying. They have dealt with these provocations from the north for decades and they know what the appropriate response should be.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then why pray tell are we even over there?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Have they been invaded in the last 50 years?
> 
> Are you saying the US Army is not doing any good unless they actually go to war?
Click to expand...


 our spending billions didn't keep em from being shot at this time though did it? Now what do you suggest we do? Sit on our hands?


----------



## Intense

theHawk said:


> Nice to see the libtards coming out and defending Obama's non-response to this.  NK has already sunk a South Korean sub, and learned then it could attack the South anytime it wants and there will be no retaliation.  This is an act of war, just as much as invading the south would be.
> 
> To suggest that South Korea can "handle it" on their own and they can decide if they want to attack the North is idiotic.  The US has been there with the South since after WWII, they aren't going to make any moves without Obama's input.  The South has already stated it will retaliate if there are "further attacks" which means they won't do jack shit about this one.
> 
> This is what happens when we have a spineless lib as Prez.



we should be mobilizing.


----------



## High_Gravity

So if Obama decides he wants to strike North Korea, will that show that he has balls?


----------



## rightwinger

WillowTree said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then why pray tell are we even over there?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have they been invaded in the last 50 years?
> 
> Are you saying the US Army is not doing any good unless they actually go to war?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> our spending billions didn't keep em from being shot at this time though did it? Now what do you suggest we do? Sit on our hands?
Click to expand...


 at Willows inability to tell the difference in being shot at and being invaded

Thanks for posting Willow, I really enjoy when you try to keep up with the adults


----------



## Avatar4321

USArmyRetired said:


> This is Obama's 3am call. I bet he slept throught it!!!



Why should this Obama's problem? Are they attacking us?

Don't get me wrong, I understand the need to help allies. But the idea that we should go to war anytime someone attacks and ally is bothersome. Even if we have traditionally helped them for years.

Either way, get information before you act. Obama hasnt nuked anyone yet, so as far as im concerned he is using some intellectual process before he does anything drastic.

If we are going to criticize Obama over anything, and there is plenty to criticize him on, let's do it on the things he actually does to hurt the country.


----------



## ba1614

Avatar4321 said:


> USArmyRetired said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is Obama's 3am call. I bet he slept throught it!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why should this Obama's problem? Are they attacking us?
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I understand the need to help allies. But the idea that we should go to war anytime someone attacks and ally is bothersome. Even if we have traditionally helped them for years.
> 
> Either way, get information before you act. Obama hasnt nuked anyone yet, so as far as im concerned he is using some intellectual process before he does anything drastic.
> 
> If we are going to criticize Obama over anything, and there is plenty to criticize him on, let's do it on the things he actually does to hurt the country.
Click to expand...


 Agreed, the last thing we need is another front to fight, unless absolutely necessary.


----------



## rightwinger

theHawk said:


> Nice to see the libtards coming out and defending Obama's non-response to this.  NK has already sunk a South Korean sub, and learned then it could attack the South anytime it wants and there will be no retaliation.  This is an act of war, just as much as invading the south would be.
> 
> To suggest that South Korea can "handle it" on their own and they can decide if they want to attack the North is idiotic.  The US has been there with the South since after WWII, they aren't going to make any moves without Obama's input.  The South has already stated it will retaliate if there are "further attacks" which means they won't do jack shit about this one.
> 
> This is what happens when we have a spineless lib as Prez.



South Korea will do the fighting and dying in this fight. Their cities can be hit by artillery and it is their citizens who will suffer. 

Chickenhaws in the US should not be making this decision for them


----------



## High_Gravity

ba1614 said:


> Avatar4321 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> USArmyRetired said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is Obama's 3am call. I bet he slept throught it!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why should this Obama's problem? Are they attacking us?
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I understand the need to help allies. But the idea that we should go to war anytime someone attacks and ally is bothersome. Even if we have traditionally helped them for years.
> 
> Either way, get information before you act. Obama hasnt nuked anyone yet, so as far as im concerned he is using some intellectual process before he does anything drastic.
> 
> If we are going to criticize Obama over anything, and there is plenty to criticize him on, let's do it on the things he actually does to hurt the country.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Agreed, the last thing we need is another front to fight, unless absolutely necessary.
Click to expand...



I concur, I just don't get what people want, when Bush invaded Iraq and Afghanistan people called him a bastard and a war monger, now because Obama doesn't launch a full scale invasion of North Korea he is a woman with no balls.


----------



## JakeStarkey

GHook93 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There's nothing for us or him to do.
> 
> Unless NK invades SK we have to sit and hope for the best.  Even the SK Pres said to use restaint.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is easy for Americans to puff up their chests and scream Invade!  Bomb the shit out of them!
> 
> But it is the South Koreans who will do the fighting and dying. They have dealt with these provocations from the north for decades and they know what the appropriate response should be.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> A lot more can be done than invade! Moving out aircraft carriers and battleships into position. Hitting their nuclear capabilities. Taking out their military capabilities. Then allowing South Korea to invade and unify Korea under a capitalistic, democratuc and 1st world industrialized nation! Assisting South Korea by shelling NK's military capacities (plants, bases, air strips, planes, military bases etc.)
> 
> We don't have to send one troop!
Click to expand...


Tell that to the 2nd Infantry Division on the DMZ and strung out in encampments from Ouijan-bu north and west.

They will die in place if we follow your nonsense.


----------



## JakeStarkey

rightwinger said:


> Intense said:
> 
> 
> 
> BB-61 IOWA-class
> Overview
> 
> Federation of American Scientists :: BB-61 IOWA-class
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The _New Jersey_ is now busy guarding Camden against a possible invasion from Philadelphia
Click to expand...


Damn Camden!


----------



## Avatar4321

GHook93 said:


> A lot more can be done than invade! Moving out aircraft carriers and battleships into position. Hitting their nuclear capabilities. Taking out their military capabilities. Then allowing South Korea to invade and unify Korea under a capitalistic, democratuc and 1st world industrialized nation! Assisting South Korea by shelling NK's military capacities (plants, bases, air strips, planes, military bases etc.)
> 
> We don't have to send one troop!



War is never that "easy". I thought we had learned that from the Bush administration.

This romantic view of war a disturbing trend as well. The North and the South had the same type of view going into the Civil war. And we all know what kind of a bloodbath that was.


----------



## Avatar4321

rightwinger said:


> Intense said:
> 
> 
> 
> BB-61 IOWA-class
> Overview
> 
> Federation of American Scientists :: BB-61 IOWA-class
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The _New Jersey_ is now busy guarding Camden against a possible invasion from Philadelphia
Click to expand...


Fools. We don't want them, heck we'd probably give them back to the British if they asked.


----------



## theHawk

rightwinger said:


> theHawk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice to see the libtards coming out and defending Obama's non-response to this.  NK has already sunk a South Korean sub, and learned then it could attack the South anytime it wants and there will be no retaliation.  This is an act of war, just as much as invading the south would be.
> 
> To suggest that South Korea can "handle it" on their own and they can decide if they want to attack the North is idiotic.  The US has been there with the South since after WWII, they aren't going to make any moves without Obama's input.  The South has already stated it will retaliate if there are "further attacks" which means they won't do jack shit about this one.
> 
> This is what happens when we have a spineless lib as Prez.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> South Korea will do the fighting and dying in this fight. Their cities can be hit by artillery and it is their citizens who will suffer.
> 
> Chickenhaws in the US should not be making this decision for them
Click to expand...


So will tens of thousands of US soldiers (and families).  Are you so stupid you don't even realize the relationship between the US and South Korea?

The Chickenshits (Obama and his followers) have already made the decision for South Korea -- do nothing.  Write a statement saying we "condemn" the action and will do something about it if you "do more".


----------



## Avatar4321

How is Obama responsible for what S. Korea does? Did he get elected President there when I wasn't looking? He was really born in Seoul wasn't he?


----------



## GHook93

rightwinger said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is easy for Americans to puff up their chests and scream Invade!  Bomb the shit out of them!
> 
> But it is the South Koreans who will do the fighting and dying. They have dealt with these provocations from the north for decades and they know what the appropriate response should be.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey numbnutz, a lot more can be done that invade! Moving out aircraft carriers and battleships into position. Hitting their nuclear capabilities. Taking out their military capabilities. Then allowing South Korea to invade and unify Korea under a capitalistic, democratuc and 1st world industrialized nation! Assisting South Korea by shelling NK's military capacities (plants, bases, air strips, planes, military bases etc.)
> 
> We don't have to send one troop!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It is the South Koreans who will do the dying in such an invasion. That is why they should have the primary decision on how much of a provocation they can accept.
> 
> It sure is easy for Americans to say "bomb them, impose capitalistic democracy on them" when others are doing the dying. Didn't we just go through this in Iraq?  Sure, invade, impose a democracy and let the Iraqi people  suffer the 100,000 casualties
> 
> And numbnutz, your military tactics need some updating. We no longer have Battleships
Click to expand...


I agree, it only works if South Korea wants to invade and unify the country, but I think they are sick and tired of North Korea's tiny dictator, provocations and brutal regime!

Destroyers, gunboats whatever you want to call them. They can be positioned in off the coast shelling North Korea military installations!


----------



## theHawk

Avatar4321 said:


> How is Obama responsible for what S. Korea does? Did he get elected President there when I wasn't looking? He was really born in Seoul wasn't he?



He isn't responisble for what South Korea does should they decide to do something without his blessing.  But it is important to understand the South Koreans consider the US their biggest ally and will not do anything drastic without the blessing from  Washington.  There is and always has been a massive US presence there, if South Korea does do something iit WILL effect the US.  Our troops will be the speed bump if all out war breaks out and the North invades the south as they are poised to do.


----------



## mdn2000

Jeremy said:


> The possibility of war breaking out there is some scary ass shit. And don't make believe for one fucking second that China won't match our moves if it does break out. The last thing we want is to see is a war with a country that is backed by a military superpower with ICBM's trained at our cities.
> 
> But Rightwinger made a great point. This won't amount to much. The north does not have the capabilities to fight a sustained conflict without outside support.



China has ICBM's aimed at us, thank you Bill Clinton and the Democrats.


----------



## GHook93

Avatar4321 said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> A lot more can be done than invade! Moving out aircraft carriers and battleships into position. Hitting their nuclear capabilities. Taking out their military capabilities. Then allowing South Korea to invade and unify Korea under a capitalistic, democratuc and 1st world industrialized nation! Assisting South Korea by shelling NK's military capacities (plants, bases, air strips, planes, military bases etc.)
> 
> We don't have to send one troop!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> War is never that "easy". I thought we had learned that from the Bush administration.
> 
> This romantic view of war a disturbing trend as well. The North and the South had the same type of view going into the Civil war. And we all know what kind of a bloodbath that was.
Click to expand...


Invasions and nation building is never easy (aka Afghanistan, Iraq, Vietnam), however, this wouldn't be a full-scale invasion and we won't have to nation build (South Korea will)!

Russian invasion, with no caring of nation building was easy. Our tactics in the Kosovo vs Serbia war was easy. Desert Storm was a piece of cake. Cast Lead was easy.

When the goal is to attack and weaken the enemy and not invade occupy and build the nation, then many complications are removed, if one opponent is vastly stronger than the other!


----------



## Two Thumbs

theHawk said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> theHawk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice to see the libtards coming out and defending Obama's non-response to this.  NK has already sunk a South Korean sub, and learned then it could attack the South anytime it wants and there will be no retaliation.  This is an act of war, just as much as invading the south would be.
> 
> To suggest that South Korea can "handle it" on their own and they can decide if they want to attack the North is idiotic.  The US has been there with the South since after WWII, they aren't going to make any moves without Obama's input.  The South has already stated it will retaliate if there are "further attacks" which means they won't do jack shit about this one.
> 
> This is what happens when we have a spineless lib as Prez.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> South Korea will do the fighting and dying in this fight. Their cities can be hit by artillery and it is their citizens who will suffer.
> 
> Chickenhaws in the US should not be making this decision for them
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So will tens of thousands of US soldiers (and families).  Are you so stupid you don't even realize the relationship between the US and South Korea?
> 
> The Chickenshits (Obama and his followers) have already made the decision for South Korea -- do nothing.  Write a statement saying we "condemn" the action and will do something about it if you "do more".
Click to expand...


Unless you have first hand knowledge of the rage of war, shut your cake hole on demanding that we go to war over this.

In case none of you have noticed.  NK has not killed 1 US citizen or soldier in these attacks.  They have shot at each other across the boarder, and a few have died.

But war?  All out war?

You have to be dumb as dirt to give NK the excuse and reason for lauching thier nukes.

Think about the scale of this.  If we back SK and war with NK, China will back NK and Japan will back us or SK, that will possibly bring in Russia.

That's 3 super powers killing each other over fucking Korea.

Some people were murdered, and that is a tragedy, but lets not use that as a reason to get billions killed.


----------



## Avatar4321

With this morning's attacks, it may be time to go to a more drastic response than the world usually takes.


----------



## mdn2000

I would send in the Special Forces, I would walk them right in. Anyone who shoots at us dies, we have complete control.

China will never fight us, not in our life, right now China is at its weakest militarily, weaker at any other point in history. You think China will bite the hand that feeds, first thing that will happen is all the foreign engineers in the country would flee, China knows this, China understands it is not the Chinese building China, its the Western Conservative Capitalist ideals building China.

It is perfect timing, destroy the regime in North Korea. 

A nice Special Force's action.


----------



## JakeStarkey

mdn2000 said:


> Jeremy said:
> 
> 
> 
> The possibility of war breaking out there is some scary ass shit. And don't make believe for one fucking second that China won't match our moves if it does break out. The last thing we want is to see is a war with a country that is backed by a military superpower with ICBM's trained at our cities.
> 
> But Rightwinger made a great point. This won't amount to much. The north does not have the capabilities to fight a sustained conflict without outside support.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China has ICBM's aimed at us, thank you Bill Clinton and the Democrats.
Click to expand...


And the GOP congresses.  Let's be accurate.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Should we attack NK and (1) get the nukes before they can be used and (2) sufficiently wreck their armed forces so they cannot threaten SK, then be prepared for (3) a nation that no longer is held together by the terror of the state, but (4) instead by the terror of a crumbling nation and impending starvation.

The US, Japan, SK, China, and Russia better be prepared to warehouse, feed, and pacify 25mm North Koreans.  Otherwise, what happens there will be make Darfur look very petty in comparison.


----------



## Moon

mdn2000 said:


> I would send in the Special Forces, I would walk them right in. Anyone who shoots at us dies, we have complete control.
> 
> China will never fight us, not in our life, right now China is at its weakest militarily, weaker at any other point in history. You think China will bite the hand that feeds, first thing that will happen is all the foreign engineers in the country would flee, China knows this, China understands it is not the Chinese building China, its the Western Conservative Capitalist ideals building China.
> 
> It is perfect timing, destroy the regime in North Korea.
> 
> A nice Special Force's action.



I think you've seen way too many action movies if you believe what you posted.


----------



## theHawk

Two Thumbs said:


> theHawk said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> South Korea will do the fighting and dying in this fight. Their cities can be hit by artillery and it is their citizens who will suffer.
> 
> Chickenhaws in the US should not be making this decision for them
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So will tens of thousands of US soldiers (and families).  Are you so stupid you don't even realize the relationship between the US and South Korea?
> 
> The Chickenshits (Obama and his followers) have already made the decision for South Korea -- do nothing.  Write a statement saying we "condemn" the action and will do something about it if you "do more".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Unless you have first hand knowledge of the rage of war, shut your cake hole on demanding that we go to war over this.
> 
> In case none of you have noticed.  NK has not killed 1 US citizen or soldier in these attacks.  They have shot at each other across the boarder, and a few have died.
> 
> But war?  All out war?
> 
> You have to be dumb as dirt to give NK the excuse and reason for lauching thier nukes.
> 
> Think about the scale of this.  If we back SK and war with NK, China will back NK and Japan will back us or SK, that will possibly bring in Russia.
> 
> That's 3 super powers killing each other over fucking Korea.
> 
> Some people were murdered, and that is a tragedy, but lets not use that as a reason to get billions killed.
Click to expand...


When did I ever call for all out war?

Some kind of retaliation should happen, to teach these thugs they can't just kill people and get away with it.

China is not going to go to war with us again over NK.  They are too economically attached to the US now.
NK is a thorn in their side and they will not want to deal with the tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of refugees that will flee to their country.


----------



## High_Gravity

mdn2000 said:


> I would send in the Special Forces, I would walk them right in. Anyone who shoots at us dies, we have complete control.
> 
> China will never fight us, not in our life, right now China is at its weakest militarily, weaker at any other point in history. You think China will bite the hand that feeds, first thing that will happen is all the foreign engineers in the country would flee, China knows this, China understands it is not the Chinese building China, its the Western Conservative Capitalist ideals building China.
> 
> It is perfect timing, destroy the regime in North Korea.
> 
> A nice Special Force's action.



Someones been watching too many Rambo movies. Special Forces are used to take out specific targets, like what their doing right now in Afghanistan, killing off a bunch of high ranking Taliban members in Kandahar and you never see or hear about their operations. Special forces are not what you use to topple a whole regime and invade a country.


----------



## Two Thumbs

theHawk said:


> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> theHawk said:
> 
> 
> 
> So will tens of thousands of US soldiers (and families).  Are you so stupid you don't even realize the relationship between the US and South Korea?
> 
> The Chickenshits (Obama and his followers) have already made the decision for South Korea -- do nothing.  Write a statement saying we "condemn" the action and will do something about it if you "do more".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unless you have first hand knowledge of the rage of war, shut your cake hole on demanding that we go to war over this.
> 
> In case none of you have noticed.  NK has not killed 1 US citizen or soldier in these attacks.  They have shot at each other across the boarder, and a few have died.
> 
> But war?  All out war?
> 
> You have to be dumb as dirt to give NK the excuse and reason for lauching thier nukes.
> 
> Think about the scale of this.  If we back SK and war with NK, China will back NK and Japan will back us or SK, that will possibly bring in Russia.
> 
> That's 3 super powers killing each other over fucking Korea.
> 
> Some people were murdered, and that is a tragedy, but lets not use that as a reason to get billions killed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When did I ever call for all out war?
> 
> Some kind of retaliation should happen, to teach these thugs they can't just kill people and get away with it.
> 
> China is not going to go to war with us again over NK.  They are too economically attached to the US now.
> NK is a thorn in their side and they will not want to deal with the tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of refugees that will flee to their country.
Click to expand...


And that action leads to a bigger re-action from NK
Which forces us to re-act even bigger
That will cuase NK to re-act even bigger 
Then we have to go even bigger

get it?

Billions die doing it your way.

Unless NK invades we need to let SK handle it.  Unless the SK people are ready to die, we don't do jackshit, beyond cutting off NK totally.


----------



## georgephillip

GHook93 said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have they been invaded in the last 50 years?
> 
> Are you saying the US Army is not doing any good unless they actually go to war?
> 
> 
> 
> Why did the US Army invade and occupy South Korea after World War II ended, and the Japanese were defeated?
> 
> How many North Koreans have died since then from US bombs?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yea we're assholes, we just liberated South Korea into becoming a free, democratic, highly advanced, highly technological, 1st world, wealth, industrialized nation!
> 
> While North Korea mass murdered and starved it's own people and has never advanced one inche!
> 
> Are you really that stupid to believe the shit sandwich you try to peddle? You are a true dumb fuck!
Click to expand...

3,000,000 North Koreans died from direct and indirect effects of US bombs during the Korean "War".

Approximately one out of every three men, women and children in North Korea at the time.

And South Korea was left with a dictator who spent the entire Japanese occupation of Korea living safely in New Jersey.

Does that make you proud of your country?


----------



## bodecea

rightwinger said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> The leadershup of N Korea is desperate.
> 
> They need a war to continue to rationalize their own military authoritarian state.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> North Korea cannot afford a full scale war that lasts more than a couple of days. They do not have the international credit to pay for fuel, food, ammunition and other logistics support required for a sustained war.
> 
> They will do what they always do....lob a few shells and then declare victory
Click to expand...


However, it has been pretty well known in the military community that if N. Korea starts something, it will most likely be in the winter when the ground is frozen...they have one of the biggest tank armies in the world and need that solid ground.

So, the question is....is the ground frozen yet?


----------



## Moon

georgephillip said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why did the US Army invade and occupy South Korea after World War II ended, and the Japanese were defeated?
> 
> How many North Koreans have died since then from US bombs?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yea we're assholes, we just liberated South Korea into becoming a free, democratic, highly advanced, highly technological, 1st world, wealth, industrialized nation!
> 
> While North Korea mass murdered and starved it's own people and has never advanced one inche!
> 
> Are you really that stupid to believe the shit sandwich you try to peddle? You are a true dumb fuck!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 3,000,000 North Koreans died from direct and indirect effects of US bombs during the Korean "War".
> 
> Approximately one out of every three men, women and children in North Korea at the time.
> 
> And South Korea was left with a dictator who spent the entire Japanese occupation of Korea living safely in New Jersey.
> 
> Does that make you proud of your country?
Click to expand...


I guess the north shouldn't have invaded the south then.  You know, that whole actions having consequences thing.


----------



## bodecea

mdn2000 said:


> I would send in the Special Forces, I would walk them right in. Anyone who shoots at us dies, we have complete control.
> 
> China will never fight us, not in our life, right now China is at its weakest militarily, weaker at any other point in history. You think China will bite the hand that feeds, first thing that will happen is all the foreign engineers in the country would flee, China knows this, China understands it is not the Chinese building China, its the Western Conservative Capitalist ideals building China.
> 
> It is perfect timing, destroy the regime in North Korea.
> 
> A nice Special Force's action.



Thank you General MacArthur.


----------



## Ozmar

So what was the title of the other thread that was merged with this one? It must have been a doozie.


----------



## Ozmar

USArmyRetired said:


> This is Obama's 3am call. I bet he slept throught it!!!



Oh crap. The peanut gallery is in full swing.


----------



## georgephillip

Moon said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yea we're assholes, we just liberated South Korea into becoming a free, democratic, highly advanced, highly technological, 1st world, wealth, industrialized nation!
> 
> While North Korea mass murdered and starved it's own people and has never advanced one inche!
> 
> Are you really that stupid to believe the shit sandwich you try to peddle? You are a true dumb fuck!
> 
> 
> 
> 3,000,000 North Koreans died from direct and indirect effects of US bombs during the Korean "War".
> 
> Approximately one out of every three men, women and children in North Korea at the time.
> 
> And South Korea was left with a dictator who spent the entire Japanese occupation of Korea living safely in New Jersey.
> 
> Does that make you proud of your country?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I guess the north shouldn't have invaded the south then.  You know, that whole actions having consequences thing.
Click to expand...

The North Koreans "invaded" in response to a US occupation that was killing thousands of Koreans who wanted the Americans to go the hell home.

The fact you're too brainwashed to know your own history is the only bull I see.


----------



## JakeStarkey

georgephillip, you mind giving us some links that lead to some validated sources?


----------



## Ozmar

georgephillip said:


> Moon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 3,000,000 North Koreans died from direct and indirect effects of US bombs during the Korean "War".
> 
> Approximately one out of every three men, women and children in North Korea at the time.
> 
> And South Korea was left with a dictator who spent the entire Japanese occupation of Korea living safely in New Jersey.
> 
> Does that make you proud of your country?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess the north shouldn't have invaded the south then.  You know, that whole actions having consequences thing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The North Koreans "invaded" in response to a US occupation that was killing thousands of Koreans who wanted the Americans to go the hell home.
> 
> The fact you're too brainwashed to know your own history is the only bull I see.
Click to expand...


If the North Koreans had succeeded, South Korea would be sharing the North's prosperity right now. American bastards!


----------



## High_Gravity

georgephillip said:


> Moon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 3,000,000 North Koreans died from direct and indirect effects of US bombs during the Korean "War".
> 
> Approximately one out of every three men, women and children in North Korea at the time.
> 
> And South Korea was left with a dictator who spent the entire Japanese occupation of Korea living safely in New Jersey.
> 
> Does that make you proud of your country?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess the north shouldn't have invaded the south then.  You know, that whole actions having consequences thing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The North Koreans "invaded" in response to a US occupation that was killing thousands of Koreans who wanted the Americans to go the hell home.
> 
> The fact you're too brainwashed to know your own history is the only bull I see.
Click to expand...



What? so American invaded Korea and started the war? I thought America didn't get involved until North Korea invaded South Korea?


----------



## Big Black Dog

This is what we get for not finishing up the job the first time with North Korea.  It's sort of like that Iraq thing...  Sound familiar?


----------



## Ozmar

Big Black Dog said:


> This is what we get for not finishing up the job the first time with North Korea.  It's sort of like that Iraq thing...  Sound familiar?



If by that you mean we left Iraq divided for 50 years while the southern part became prosperous, and the north a communist dictatorship, then yes. And the parallels don't end there; Iraq: Homogenous ethnicity. Korea: Homogenous ethnicity....


----------



## JBeukema

WillowTree said:


> Don't ya'll libruls hurt a hair on nary a North Korean's head ya hear? I'm sure they done this cause South Korea has raped their women and pillaged their villages and squandered all of their resources. Now the way libruls see it NK is well validated in it's complaints and if you don't think so you're a racist.
> 
> Make em some mo tea libruls.







take your meds, willow


----------



## rightwinger

mdn2000 said:


> Jeremy said:
> 
> 
> 
> The possibility of war breaking out there is some scary ass shit. And don't make believe for one fucking second that China won't match our moves if it does break out. The last thing we want is to see is a war with a country that is backed by a military superpower with ICBM's trained at our cities.
> 
> But Rightwinger made a great point. This won't amount to much. The north does not have the capabilities to fight a sustained conflict without outside support.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China has ICBM's aimed at us, thank you Bill Clinton and the Democrats.
Click to expand...


Bill Clinton gave China ICBMs???

i thought he just gave them the internet


----------



## JBeukema

WillowTree said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There's nothing for us or him to do.
> 
> Unless NK invades SK we have to sit and hope for the best.  Even the SK Pres said to use restaint.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is easy for Americans to puff up their chests and scream Invade!  Bomb the shit out of them!
> 
> But it is the South Koreans who will do the fighting and dying. They have dealt with these provocations from the north for decades and they know what the appropriate response should be.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then why pray tell are we even over there?
Click to expand...

because you're an america-hating leftist nazi who wants us to turn and run and let the communists win


----------



## rightwinger

bodecea said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> The leadershup of N Korea is desperate.
> 
> They need a war to continue to rationalize their own military authoritarian state.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> North Korea cannot afford a full scale war that lasts more than a couple of days. They do not have the international credit to pay for fuel, food, ammunition and other logistics support required for a sustained war.
> 
> They will do what they always do....lob a few shells and then declare victory
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> However, it has been pretty well known in the military community that if N. Korea starts something, it will most likely be in the winter when the ground is frozen...they have one of the biggest tank armies in the world and need that solid ground.
> 
> So, the question is....is the ground frozen yet?
Click to expand...


Tanks need fuel and fuel costs money. They also need supply lines to carry that fuel. Without command of the airspace, their tanks would be sitting ducks


----------



## rightwinger

theHawk said:


> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> theHawk said:
> 
> 
> 
> So will tens of thousands of US soldiers (and families).  Are you so stupid you don't even realize the relationship between the US and South Korea?
> 
> The Chickenshits (Obama and his followers) have already made the decision for South Korea -- do nothing.  Write a statement saying we "condemn" the action and will do something about it if you "do more".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unless you have first hand knowledge of the rage of war, shut your cake hole on demanding that we go to war over this.
> 
> In case none of you have noticed.  NK has not killed 1 US citizen or soldier in these attacks.  They have shot at each other across the boarder, and a few have died.
> 
> But war?  All out war?
> 
> You have to be dumb as dirt to give NK the excuse and reason for lauching thier nukes.
> 
> Think about the scale of this.  If we back SK and war with NK, China will back NK and Japan will back us or SK, that will possibly bring in Russia.
> 
> That's 3 super powers killing each other over fucking Korea.
> 
> Some people were murdered, and that is a tragedy, but lets not use that as a reason to get billions killed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> When did I ever call for all out war?
> 
> Some kind of retaliation should happen, to teach these thugs they can't just kill people and get away with it.
> 
> China is not going to go to war with us again over NK.  They are too economically attached to the US now.
> NK is a thorn in their side and they will not want to deal with the tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of refugees that will flee to their country.
Click to expand...


South Korea will deliver a proportional response. Right now two soldiers are dead. Responding with an invasion will result in thousands of American dead and hundreds of thousand Korean dead.


----------



## JBeukema

GHook93 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There's nothing for us or him to do.
> 
> Unless NK invades SK we have to sit and hope for the best.  Even the SK Pres said to use restaint.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is easy for Americans to puff up their chests and scream Invade!  Bomb the shit out of them!
> 
> But it is the South Koreans who will do the fighting and dying. They have dealt with these provocations from the north for decades and they know what the appropriate response should be.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Militarily (if it comes to that) a lot more can be done than invade! Moving our aircraft carriers and battleships into position (even provoking attacks). Hitting their nuclear capabilities.
Click to expand...


How? We don't know what or where they are. We didn't know about the refinery they just rubbed our noses in until they decided to show it to us.





> Taking out their military capabilities. Then allowing South Korea to invade and unify Korea under a capitalistic, democratic and 1st world industrialized nation!



I have this strange case of deja vu like we've lost this war before...


----------



## Jeremy

rightwinger said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jeremy said:
> 
> 
> 
> The possibility of war breaking out there is some scary ass shit. And don't make believe for one fucking second that China won't match our moves if it does break out. The last thing we want is to see is a war with a country that is backed by a military superpower with ICBM's trained at our cities.
> 
> But Rightwinger made a great point. This won't amount to much. The north does not have the capabilities to fight a sustained conflict without outside support.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China has ICBM's aimed at us, thank you Bill Clinton and the Democrats.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Bill Clinton gave China ICBMs???
> 
> i thought he just gave them the internet
Click to expand...


Don't forget Walmart, McDonalds & KFC


----------



## High_Gravity

JBeukema said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is easy for Americans to puff up their chests and scream Invade!  Bomb the shit out of them!
> 
> But it is the South Koreans who will do the fighting and dying. They have dealt with these provocations from the north for decades and they know what the appropriate response should be.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Militarily (if it comes to that) a lot more can be done than invade! Moving our aircraft carriers and battleships into position (even provoking attacks). Hitting their nuclear capabilities.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How? We don't know what or where they are. We didn't know about the refinery they just rubbed our noses in until they decided to show it to us.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Taking out their military capabilities. Then allowing South Korea to invade and unify Korea under a capitalistic, democratic and 1st world industrialized nation!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have this strange case of deja vu like we've lost this war before...
Click to expand...



Really we lost? so what are those American troops doing in South Korea if the US lost the Korean war?sampling the local cuisine?


----------



## JBeukema

Intense said:


> theHawk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice to see the libtards coming out and defending Obama's non-response to this.  NK has already sunk a South Korean sub, and learned then it could attack the South anytime it wants and there will be no retaliation.  This is an act of war, just as much as invading the south would be.
> 
> To suggest that South Korea can "handle it" on their own and they can decide if they want to attack the North is idiotic.  The US has been there with the South since after WWII, they aren't going to make any moves without Obama's input.  The South has already stated it will retaliate if there are "further attacks" which means they won't do jack shit about this one.
> 
> This is what happens when we have a spineless lib as Prez.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> we should be mobilizing.
Click to expand...


mobilizing... what forces? How many nations do we *still* have troops stationed in from WW2? What about Iraq and Afghanistan? (Thank you, Mr Bush)

How many fucking nations can we fight in at once? Fighting on too many fronts is how Germany lost WWII.

And now, with us in a religious crusade against Islam and tied down in Iraq and Afghanistan, Israel-Palestine and the surrounding nations at risk of popping off (especially if Israel's Western allies don't have any troops or materiel to spare), Iran posed to do who-the-fuck-knows, a civil war being waged in Mexico between the cartels with their government puppets and those who want to break their hold- not to mention the Zapatistas  and other groups...

Can we really afford to go rushing headfirst into another war? Things are precarious as-is right now.

Jesus Christ, have you people never read a history book? Change the names and a few flags and we're watching a fucking rerun on the History Channel.

*WE'VE LOST THIS WAR BEFORE!
*​


----------



## georgephillip

High_Gravity said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moon said:
> 
> 
> 
> I guess the north shouldn't have invaded the south then.  You know, that whole actions having consequences thing.
> 
> 
> 
> The North Koreans "invaded" in response to a US occupation that was killing thousands of Koreans who wanted the Americans to go the hell home.
> 
> The fact you're too brainwashed to know your own history is the only bull I see.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> What? so American invaded Korea and started the war? I thought America didn't get involved until North Korea invaded South Korea?
Click to expand...

It's my understanding at the end of WWII the US maintained a presence in South Korea after evicting the Japanese. In the North, Koreans who collaborated with the occupation were being hunted and killed.

In the South collaborators were being absorbed into police and militay agencies. 

There was a strong pro-democracy movement in the South that wanted all foreigners out.

Between 1945 and 1950 tensions gradually escalated until "North" Korea invaded.

I'm at work right now and unable to provide links.

I will do so when I get off; however, most links on this are on the Left wing sites i.e., CounterPunch>Search>Korean War, and many on this board reflexively ignore anything from such sources.


----------



## JBeukema

High_Gravity said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Militarily (if it comes to that) a lot more can be done than invade! Moving our aircraft carriers and battleships into position (even provoking attacks). Hitting their nuclear capabilities.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How? We don't know what or where they are. We didn't know about the refinery they just rubbed our noses in until they decided to show it to us.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Taking out their military capabilities. Then allowing South Korea to invade and unify Korea under a capitalistic, democratic and 1st world industrialized nation!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have this strange case of deja vu like we've lost this war before...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Really we lost? so what are those American troops doing in South Korea if the US lost the Korean war?sampling the local cuisine?
Click to expand...



Yes, we lost. In case you forgot, the aim of the war was to defeat the neocommunists in NK, supported by China. We barely managed to reach a standstill after marching back and forth up and down the region. What are we doing now? Trying to hold onto what we managed to save the last time.


----------



## Jeremy

Short of an actual invasion of the South, we should be doing everything in our power to avoid an all out war. If war were to break out it could easily turn into a nuclear WW3. All this talk about a military responce to this shelling is fucking stupid.


----------



## JBeukema

Avatar4321 said:


> USArmyRetired said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is Obama's 3am call. I bet he slept throught it!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why should this Obama's problem? Are they attacking us?
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I understand the need to help allies. But the idea that we should go to war anytime someone attacks and ally is bothersome. Even if we have traditionally helped them for years.
> .
Click to expand...



That's how world wars get started... entangling alliances...


Jefferson made a comment about that, once


----------



## Moon

georgephillip said:


> Moon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 3,000,000 North Koreans died from direct and indirect effects of US bombs during the Korean "War".
> 
> Approximately one out of every three men, women and children in North Korea at the time.
> 
> And South Korea was left with a dictator who spent the entire Japanese occupation of Korea living safely in New Jersey.
> 
> Does that make you proud of your country?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess the north shouldn't have invaded the south then.  You know, that whole actions having consequences thing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The North Koreans "invaded" in response to a US occupation that was killing thousands of Koreans who wanted the Americans to go the hell home.
> 
> The fact you're too brainwashed to know your own history is the only bull I see.
Click to expand...


What nonsense.  The north invaded in an attempt to reunify the peninsula under communist rule.  They failed and millions of Koreans died as a result.  As far as your attempt to blame the US "occupation", we had virtually no troops in Korea at the time the north invaded.  Most had been withdrawn the year before.


----------



## JBeukema

I wonder whether there might be a substantial pro-democracy resistance in NK that we could train behind the scenes to destabilize the regime and foster a discontent that could later fuel something like the (relatively) bloodless anti-totalitarian revolutions that evil jewish puppetmaster George Soros saw carried out in the Ukraine, Georgia, and the Czech Republic...


----------



## bodecea

JBeukema said:


> Avatar4321 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> USArmyRetired said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is Obama's 3am call. I bet he slept throught it!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why should this Obama's problem? Are they attacking us?
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I understand the need to help allies. But the idea that we should go to war anytime someone attacks and ally is bothersome. Even if we have traditionally helped them for years.
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> That's how world wars get started... entangling alliances...
> 
> 
> Jefferson made a comment about that, once
Click to expand...


As did Washington.


----------



## Jeremy

georgephillip said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> The North Koreans "invaded" in response to a US occupation that was killing thousands of Koreans who wanted the Americans to go the hell home.
> 
> The fact you're too brainwashed to know your own history is the only bull I see.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What? so American invaded Korea and started the war? I thought America didn't get involved until North Korea invaded South Korea?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's my understanding at the end of WWII the US maintained a presence in South Korea after evicting the Japanese. In the North, Koreans who collaborated with the occupation were being hunted and killed.
> 
> In the South collaborators were being absorbed into police and militay agencies.
> 
> There was a strong pro-democracy movement in the South that wanted all foreigners out.
> 
> Between 1945 and 1950 tensions gradually escalated until "North" Korea invaded.
> 
> I'm at work right now and unable to provide links.
> 
> I will do so when I get off; however, most links on this are on the Left wing sites i.e., CounterPunch>Search>Korean War, and many on this board reflexively ignore anything from such sources.
Click to expand...


In case you havn't noticed, nobody gives a fuck about your mental queefs you commie sympathizing fuck tard.


----------



## JBeukema

Two Thumbs said:


> theHawk said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> South Korea will do the fighting and dying in this fight. Their cities can be hit by artillery and it is their citizens who will suffer.
> 
> Chickenhaws in the US should not be making this decision for them
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So will tens of thousands of US soldiers (and families).  Are you so stupid you don't even realize the relationship between the US and South Korea?
> 
> The Chickenshits (Obama and his followers) have already made the decision for South Korea -- do nothing.  Write a statement saying we "condemn" the action and will do something about it if you "do more".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Unless you have first hand knowledge of the rage of war, shut your cake hole on demanding that we go to war over this.
> 
> In case none of you have noticed.  NK has not killed 1 US citizen or soldier in these attacks.  They have shot at each other across the boarder, and a few have died.
> 
> But war?  All out war?
> 
> You have to be dumb as dirt to give NK the excuse and reason for lauching thier nukes.
> 
> Think about the scale of this.  If we back SK and war with NK, China will back NK and Japan will back us or SK, that will possibly bring in Russia.
> 
> That's 3 super powers killing each other over fucking Korea.
Click to expand...



Déjà vu (French pronunciation: [de&#658;a vy]  ( listen), meaning "already seen") is the experience of feeling sure that one has already witnessed or experienced a current situation...


----------



## High_Gravity

JBeukema said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> How? We don't know what or where they are. We didn't know about the refinery they just rubbed our noses in until they decided to show it to us.I have this strange case of deja vu like we've lost this war before...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really we lost? so what are those American troops doing in South Korea if the US lost the Korean war?sampling the local cuisine?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, we lost. In case you forgot, the aim of the war was to defeat the neocommunists in NK, supported by China. We barely managed to reach a standstill after marching back and forth up and down the region. What are we doing now? Trying to hold onto what we managed to save the last time.
Click to expand...


Rubbish, the US didn't win that war but didn't lose it either, it was a ceasefire if anything. If the US lost the war there wouldn't be a single US Soldier on that Penninsula and Korea would be united under Kim Jong Il's boot. You just hate America so much it has you saying stupid shit.


----------



## JBeukema

mdn2000 said:


> I would send in the Special Forces, I would walk them right in. Anyone who shoots at us dies, we have complete control.
> 
> China will never fight us, not in our life, right now China is at its weakest militarily, weaker at any other point in history. You think China will bite the hand that feeds, first thing that will happen is all the foreign engineers in the country would flee, China knows this, China understands it is not the Chinese building China, its the Western Conservative Capitalist ideals building China.
> 
> It is perfect timing, destroy the regime in North Korea.
> 
> A nice Special Force's action.


You want to know who's really weak?

We are.


If Iran can move to control the Straight of Hormuz and/or regional oil production, we're royally fucked. We're talking rationing and difficulty keeping our military running. If OPEC, which is not made up of our allies, supports Iran, we could be in big trouble. If we dedicate forces to securing our oil supply, then we weaken our offense everywhere else.

If we're tied up with Iran and NK (possibly w/ Chinese support, be it openly or behind the scenes), how can we aid Israel if the surrounding nation-states or non-state entities decide it's time to make a move while the U.S. is distracted? How long will it take us to get American manufacturing up to where it needs to be to fuel the war effort ala' WWII?

Then there's AQ and other terrorist organizations which would love the opportunity and excuse to attack our homeland again, with Mexico providing ample room and opportunity to gather, plan, and prepare- with relative ease crossing over the border to get into the States.

This could get really ugly really quickly with Israel fighting for its existence, us trying to defend our homeland while tied up in Iraq, Afghanistan, The UAE/Kuwait/elsewhere in the region, Korea... Even with the British and whatever coalition we might be able to gather together after the last 8 years, we're looking at a pretty grim situation.

Rushing headlong into war in NK could easily provide the opportunities our enemies are looking for and lead us straight into World War Three. It's happened twice before, so don't give me a bunch of bullshit about how it won't happen again.

We simply cannot afford to let the warhawks go diving into another clusterfuck in Korea right now.


----------



## Jeremy

This war you guys are discussing hasn't officially ended by the way.


----------



## JBeukema

High_Gravity said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> Really we lost? so what are those American troops doing in South Korea if the US lost the Korean war?sampling the local cuisine?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, we lost. In case you forgot, the aim of the war was to defeat the neocommunists in NK, supported by China. We barely managed to reach a standstill after marching back and forth up and down the region. What are we doing now? Trying to hold onto what we managed to save the last time.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Rubbish, the US didn't win that war but didn't lose it either, it was a ceasefire if anything. If the US lost the war there wouldn't be a single US Soldier on that Penninsula and Korea would be united under Kim Jong Il's boot. You just hate America so much it has you saying stupid shit.
Click to expand...



fail, moron


if I hated America, I'd be cheering for war, as it would present a good chance to see this nation get royally fucked

I'm trying to save this nation- and our allies- from the retards looking live out their fantasies of seeing The Big War for themselves


----------



## High_Gravity

JBeukema said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, we lost. In case you forgot, the aim of the war was to defeat the neocommunists in NK, supported by China. We barely managed to reach a standstill after marching back and forth up and down the region. What are we doing now? Trying to hold onto what we managed to save the last time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rubbish, the US didn't win that war but didn't lose it either, it was a ceasefire if anything. If the US lost the war there wouldn't be a single US Soldier on that Penninsula and Korea would be united under Kim Jong Il's boot. You just hate America so much it has you saying stupid shit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> fail, moron
> 
> 
> if I hated America, I'd be cheering for war, as it would present a good chance to see this nation get royally fucked
> 
> I'm trying to save this nation- and our allies- from the retards looking live out their fantasies of seeing The Big War for themselves
Click to expand...



You do hate America jack ass, every single worthless post I seen from you is talking about how America is weak and how America lost to North Korea, you hate America so much you can't see straight. You probably converted to Islam a few years back too didn't you?


----------



## JBeukema

You're an idiot.

How about you lose the Bil O'Reilly schtick and try showing how anything I've said is wrong


----------



## High_Gravity

JBeukema said:


> You're an idiot.
> 
> How about you lose the Bil O'Reilly schtick and try showing how anything I've said is wrong



Everything you said is bullshit, you lost all credibility when you tried to say America started the Korean war. Log off your computer and delete your account.


----------



## JBeukema

High_Gravity said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> You're an idiot.
> 
> How about you lose the Bil O'Reilly schtick and try showing how anything I've said is wrong
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Everything you said is bullshit, you lost all credibility when you tried to say America started the Korean war. Log off your computer and delete your account.
Click to expand...

o rly?


do cite









fail


----------



## Jeremy




----------



## High_Gravity

Its in this thread jackass, anyone that can read can go back to the post where you wrote that vomit.


----------



## Ozmar

So North Korea fired on South Korea. Anyone else heard about this?


----------



## JBeukema

Why am I not surprised that someone who names himself after a variety of drunkard's piss can't follow a conversation?


----------



## JBeukema

High_Gravity said:


> Its in this thread jackass, anyone that can read can go back to the post where you wrote that vomit.


really?


do cite

all that alcoholic urine you've been drinking seems to have killed off some brain cells

I never addressed the beginning of the Korean War. I've never discussed how that war began on this forum. Only how it ended and its relevance to the current situation.


----------



## Jeremy

Ozmar said:


> So North Korea fired on South Korea. Anyone else heard about this?



I think there is a thread somewhere about it.


----------



## High_Gravity

JBeukema said:


> Why am I not surprised that someone who names himself after a variety of drunkard's piss can't follow a conversation?



What conversation jackass? you wrote that America started the Korean war so you have lost all crediblity with that post, now log off and delete your account.


----------



## JBeukema

Jeremy... every time you post, I get distracted by the Kirby dance and have difficulty paying attention to what you actually post...


----------



## JBeukema

High_Gravity said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why am I not surprised that someone who names himself after a variety of drunkard's piss can't follow a conversation?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What conversation jackass? you wrote that America started the Korean war so you have lost all crediblity with that post, now log off and delete your account.
Click to expand...






Stop guzzling hobo piss. It's having a negative impact on your cognitive functions.

Do feel free to cite where I said any such thing.


----------



## High_Gravity

JBeukema said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> Its in this thread jackass, anyone that can read can go back to the post where you wrote that vomit.
> 
> 
> 
> really?
> 
> 
> do cite
> 
> all that alcoholic urine you've been drinking seems to have killed off some brain cells
> 
> I never addressed the beginning of the Korean War. I've never discussed how that war began on this forum. Only how it ended and its relevance to the current situation.
Click to expand...


You have no crediblity, delete your account.


----------



## High_Gravity

JBeukema said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why am I not surprised that someone who names himself after a variety of drunkard's piss can't follow a conversation?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What conversation jackass? you wrote that America started the Korean war so you have lost all crediblity with that post, now log off and delete your account.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stop guzzling hobo piss. It's having a negative impact on your cognitive functions.
> 
> Do feel free to cite where I said any such thing.
Click to expand...


Delete your account.


----------



## JBeukema

Right... so you _can't_ cite where I've said any such thing?

You may now sit your ass back down on the curb and enjoy your hobo piss.


----------



## High_Gravity

JBeukema said:


> Right... so you _can't_ cite where I've said any such thing?
> 
> You may now sit your ass back down on the curb and enjoy your hobo piss.



Anyone that can read can surf through the thread and find it jack ass, now delete your account bitch.


----------



## High_Gravity

JBeukema said:


> I wonder whether there might be a substantial pro-democracy resistance in NK that we could train behind the scenes to destabilize the regime and foster a discontent that could later fuel something like the (relatively) bloodless anti-totalitarian revolutions that evil jewish puppetmaster George Soros saw carried out in the Ukraine, Georgia, and the Czech Republic...



Pro democracy groups in North Korea huh? LMAO! Delete your account dumb fuck!


----------



## JBeukema

Right... that's three reasons you look like an idiot, now.

Do cite, if you can still see straight.

Have you considered logging off, learning to read, getting a job and drinking real liquor instead of hobo piss with extra alcohol dumped in it to sterilize it?


----------



## High_Gravity

LMAO at pro democracy groups in North Korea hahahahahahaha.


----------



## High_Gravity

JBeukema said:


> Right... that's three reasons you look like an idiot, now.
> 
> Do cite, if you can still see straight.
> 
> Have you considered logging off, learning to read, getting a job and drinking real liquor instead of hobo piss with extra alcohol dumped in it to sterilize it?



Let me get in touch with the "pro democracy" groups in North Korea and get back with you.


----------



## Ozmar

> Nations reacted swiftly Tuesday in condemning a North Korean artillery attack that South Korea said killed two marines and wounded 15 soldiers and civilians.
> The strongest reaction came from South Korean President Lee Myung-bak, who ordered his military to punish North Korea "through action," not just words, the official Yonhap news agency said.
> "The provocation this time can be regarded as an invasion of South Korean territory," Lee said during a visit to the headquarters of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in central Seoul. "In particular, indiscriminate attacks on civilians are a grave matter."
> The United States also offered quick comment, with the White House saying it "strongly condemns" the "belligerent action" by North Korea.


World condemns deadly N. Korean artillery attack - CNN.com


----------



## Moon

Well, another fine thread ruined by the antics of a couple of juveniles.  Just another day at USMB.


----------



## JBeukema

You really think it'd be the first time we found or created a resistance to destabilize a regime?

The only problem is they have a tendency to run on us later when we don't leave.


----------



## Ozmar

I await armageddon.


----------



## High_Gravity

JBeukema said:


> You really think it'd be the first time we found or created a resistance to destabilize a regime?
> 
> The only problem is they have a tendency to run on us later when we don't leave.



There is no "resistance" allowed in North Korea, one bad word about the regime and you are either dead or locked up in a death camp.


----------



## JBeukema

Ozmar said:


> Nations reacted swiftly Tuesday in condemning a North Korean artillery attack that South Korea said killed two marines and wounded 15 soldiers and civilians.
> The strongest reaction came from South Korean President Lee Myung-bak, who ordered his military to punish North Korea "through action," not just words, the official Yonhap news agency said.
> "The provocation this time can be regarded as an invasion of South Korean territory," Lee said during a visit to the headquarters of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in central Seoul. "In particular, indiscriminate attacks on civilians are a grave matter."
> The United States also offered quick comment, with the White House saying it "strongly condemns" the "belligerent action" by North Korea.
> 
> 
> 
> World condemns deadly N. Korean artillery attack - CNN.com
Click to expand...



The South Koreans should take lead on this. Their land, their border, their blood. We need to let them know we'll support whatever they feel is necessary, but stress that we think it's best to avoid open conflict for the reasons I mentioned above.


----------



## Moon

Ozmar said:


> Nations reacted swiftly Tuesday in condemning a North Korean artillery attack that South Korea said killed two marines and wounded 15 soldiers and civilians.
> The strongest reaction came from South Korean President Lee Myung-bak, who ordered his military to punish North Korea "through action," not just words, the official Yonhap news agency said.
> "The provocation this time can be regarded as an invasion of South Korean territory," Lee said during a visit to the headquarters of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in central Seoul. "In particular, indiscriminate attacks on civilians are a grave matter."
> The United States also offered quick comment, with the White House saying it "strongly condemns" the "belligerent action" by North Korea.
> 
> 
> 
> World condemns deadly N. Korean artillery attack - CNN.com
Click to expand...


We'll see how much influence the international community has over north Korea.  I'm guessing very little.


----------



## JBeukema

High_Gravity said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> You really think it'd be the first time we found or created a resistance to destabilize a regime?
> 
> The only problem is they have a tendency to run on us later when we don't leave.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no "resistance" allowed in North Korea, one bad word about the regime and you are either dead or locked up in a death camp.
Click to expand...


read a history book


we've seen this all before


several times


----------



## High_Gravity

Moon said:


> Well, another fine thread ruined by the antics of a couple of juveniles.  Just another day at USMB.



I am 79 years old.


----------



## Ozmar

Especially with puppet master China backing them.


----------



## Jeremy

Ozmar said:


> I await armageddon.





What time is it on? Or did you order it from Netflix?


----------



## Moon

High_Gravity said:


> Moon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, another fine thread ruined by the antics of a couple of juveniles.  Just another day at USMB.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am 79 years old.
Click to expand...


Then stop acting like you're 12.


----------



## High_Gravity

JBeukema said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> You really think it'd be the first time we found or created a resistance to destabilize a regime?
> 
> The only problem is they have a tendency to run on us later when we don't leave.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no "resistance" allowed in North Korea, one bad word about the regime and you are either dead or locked up in a death camp.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> read a history book
> 
> 
> we've seen this all before
> 
> 
> several times
Click to expand...


The only North Korean resistance I know of are exiles living abroad, actual people in North Korea are too busy starving to worry about resisting jack shit.


----------



## Ozmar

High_Gravity said:


> Moon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, another fine thread ruined by the antics of a couple of juveniles.  Just another day at USMB.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am 79 years old.
Click to expand...


Dude, piss off and let the big boys talk.


----------



## High_Gravity

Moon said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, another fine thread ruined by the antics of a couple of juveniles.  Just another day at USMB.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am 79 years old.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then stop acting like you're 12.
Click to expand...


I thought I was acting like a teenager?


----------



## High_Gravity

Ozmar said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, another fine thread ruined by the antics of a couple of juveniles.  Just another day at USMB.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am 79 years old.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Dude, piss off and let the big boys talk.
Click to expand...


No, I think I'll stay here thanks.


----------



## Ozmar

High_Gravity said:


> Ozmar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am 79 years old.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dude, piss off and let the big boys talk.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, I think I'll stay here thanks.
Click to expand...


You're not welcome.


----------



## High_Gravity

Ozmar said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ozmar said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dude, piss off and let the big boys talk.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, I think I'll stay here thanks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're not welcome.
Click to expand...


Thank you.


----------



## JBeukema

High_Gravity said:


> Moon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, another fine thread ruined by the antics of a couple of juveniles.  Just another day at USMB.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am 79 years old.
Click to expand...


Ah.

Senility *and *drunkard's piss.

That explains it.


----------



## High_Gravity

JBeukema said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, another fine thread ruined by the antics of a couple of juveniles.  Just another day at USMB.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am 79 years old.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ah.
> 
> Senility *and *drunkard's piss.
> 
> That explains it.
Click to expand...


Shut up you young whipper snapper.


----------



## Moon

High_Gravity said:


> Moon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am 79 years old.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then stop acting like you're 12.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I thought I was acting like a teenager?
Click to expand...


The word I used was juvenile.


> reflecting psychological or intellectual immaturity : childish


----------



## Jeremy

JBeukema said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, another fine thread ruined by the antics of a couple of juveniles.  Just another day at USMB.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am 79 years old.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ah.
> 
> Senility *and *drunkard's piss.
> 
> That explains it.
Click to expand...


At least we can all have comfort knowing that death is right around the corner.


----------



## High_Gravity

Moon said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then stop acting like you're 12.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I thought I was acting like a teenager?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The word I used was juvenile.
> 
> 
> 
> reflecting psychological or intellectual immaturity : childish
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Oh, I thought you meant Juvenile the rapper.


----------



## High_Gravity

Jeremy said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am 79 years old.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ah.
> 
> Senility *and *drunkard's piss.
> 
> That explains it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> At least we can all have comfort knowing that death is right around the corner.
Click to expand...


Thats not a very nice thing to say.


----------



## Jeremy

High_Gravity said:


> Jeremy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ah.
> 
> Senility *and *drunkard's piss.
> 
> That explains it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At least we can all have comfort knowing that death is right around the corner.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thats not a very nice thing to say.
Click to expand...


don't care.


----------



## High_Gravity

Jeremy said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jeremy said:
> 
> 
> 
> At least we can all have comfort knowing that death is right around the corner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thats not a very nice thing to say.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> don't care.
Click to expand...


----------



## Ozmar

JBeukema said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, another fine thread ruined by the antics of a couple of juveniles.  Just another day at USMB.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am 79 years old.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ah.
> 
> Senility *and *drunkard's piss.
> 
> That explains it.
Click to expand...


----------



## Ozmar

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1jP9DoeKaU[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcW_Ygs6hm0[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gb0mxcpPOU[/ame]


----------



## Jos

> The skirmish began when Pyongyang warned the South to halt military drills in the area, according to South Korean officials. When Seoul refused and began firing artillery into disputed waters, albeit away from the North Korean shore, the North retaliated by bombarding the small island of Yeonpyeong, which houses South Korean military installations and a small civilian population.


North, South Korea exchange fire; 2 marines killed - Yahoo! News


----------



## High_Gravity

Ozmar said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am 79 years old.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ah.
> 
> Senility *and *drunkard's piss.
> 
> That explains it.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Why are you posting your personal pics on here?


----------



## Valerie

> *South Korea says it will retaliate with missile strikes against the North if faced with "further provocations"*, after an exchange of fire in which two South Korean marines were killed.
> 
> President Lee Myung-bak was responding to the shelling of an inhabited island close to a disputed maritime border.
> 
> The South returned fire in one of the worst clashes since the Korean War.
> 
> US President Barack Obama called the incident an "outrageous, provocative act" by Pyongyang.
> 
> He was speaking ahead of an expected telephone call to President Lee.
> 
> The South Korean military had been carrying out an exercise near Yeonpyeong island, and the North accused the South of opening the hostilities - something Seoul denies.
> 
> The South says North Korean shells started falling in the waters off the island at 1434 local time (0534 GMT) on Tuesday.
> 
> *At least 50 landed directly on the island, most of them hitting a South Korean military base there. In addition to the two deaths, 16 South Korean marines and three civilians were injured.*
> 
> The South fired back some 80 shells. Casualties on the northern side are unknown.


BBC News - Border clash prompts South Korean missile warning


----------



## JBeukema

Solution: Kin Jung allows US businesses to establish factories in his country, drawing from the local populace for cheap labour. Kim jung promises to never put in place any labour or environmental protection laws.

North Korea is now 'a valuable ally embracing capitalism and progress' and we 'will not tolerate South Korea's provocations or attempts to undermine North Korea's success'. South Korea needs to accept that 'the Korean and Cold Wars are over' and that 'it is time move forward'.


----------



## elvis

JBeukema said:


> Solution: Kin Jung allows US businesses to establish factories in his country, drawing from the local populace for cheap labour. Kim jung promises to never put in place any labour or environmental protection laws.
> 
> North Korea is now 'a valuable ally embracing capitalism and progress' and we 'will not tolerate South Korea's provocations or attempts to undermine North Korea's success'. South Korea needs to accept that 'the Korean and Cold Wars are over' and that 'it is time move forward'.



and then Walmart slashes their prices, yet again.


----------



## Ozmar

Valerie said:


> *South Korea says it will retaliate with missile strikes against the North if faced with "further provocations"*, after an exchange of fire in which two South Korean marines were killed.
> 
> President Lee Myung-bak was responding to the shelling of an inhabited island close to a disputed maritime border.
> 
> The South returned fire in one of the worst clashes since the Korean War.
> 
> US President Barack Obama called the incident an "outrageous, provocative act" by Pyongyang.
> 
> He was speaking ahead of an expected telephone call to President Lee.
> 
> The South Korean military had been carrying out an exercise near Yeonpyeong island, and the North accused the South of opening the hostilities - something Seoul denies.
> 
> The South says North Korean shells started falling in the waters off the island at 1434 local time (0534 GMT) on Tuesday.
> 
> *At least 50 landed directly on the island, most of them hitting a South Korean military base there. In addition to the two deaths, 16 South Korean marines and three civilians were injured.*
> 
> The South fired back some 80 shells. Casualties on the northern side are unknown.
> 
> 
> 
> BBC News - Border clash prompts South Korean missile warning
Click to expand...

So you are saying this is all South Korea's fault? Typical apologist. 


High_Gravity said:


> Ozmar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ah.
> 
> Senility *and *drunkard's piss.
> 
> That explains it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why are you posting your personal pics on here?
Click to expand...

I know it may be hard for you to comprehend the intended humor, but the picture was supposed to be of you.


----------



## High_Gravity

Ozmar said:


> Valerie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *South Korea says it will retaliate with missile strikes against the North if faced with "further provocations"*, after an exchange of fire in which two South Korean marines were killed.
> 
> President Lee Myung-bak was responding to the shelling of an inhabited island close to a disputed maritime border.
> 
> The South returned fire in one of the worst clashes since the Korean War.
> 
> US President Barack Obama called the incident an "outrageous, provocative act" by Pyongyang.
> 
> He was speaking ahead of an expected telephone call to President Lee.
> 
> The South Korean military had been carrying out an exercise near Yeonpyeong island, and the North accused the South of opening the hostilities - something Seoul denies.
> 
> The South says North Korean shells started falling in the waters off the island at 1434 local time (0534 GMT) on Tuesday.
> 
> *At least 50 landed directly on the island, most of them hitting a South Korean military base there. In addition to the two deaths, 16 South Korean marines and three civilians were injured.*
> 
> The South fired back some 80 shells. Casualties on the northern side are unknown.
> 
> 
> 
> BBC News - Border clash prompts South Korean missile warning
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So you are saying this is all South Korea's fault? Typical apologist.
> 
> 
> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ozmar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why are you posting your personal pics on here?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I know it may be hard for you to comprehend the intended humor, but the picture was supposed to be of you.
Click to expand...



Doubt it, I'm not white.


----------



## Ozmar

High_Gravity said:


> Ozmar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Valerie said:
> 
> 
> 
> BBC News - Border clash prompts South Korean missile warning
> 
> 
> 
> So you are saying this is all South Korea's fault? Typical apologist.
> 
> 
> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why are you posting your personal pics on here?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I know it may be hard for you to comprehend the intended humor, but the picture was supposed to be of you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Doubt it, I'm not white.
Click to expand...


Sure you are. You're some white dude posing as a black dude online. Think I haven't seen your lot many times over? Poser.


----------



## High_Gravity

Ozmar said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ozmar said:
> 
> 
> 
> So you are saying this is all South Korea's fault? Typical apologist.
> 
> I know it may be hard for you to comprehend the intended humor, but the picture was supposed to be of you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Doubt it, I'm not white.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sure you are. You're some white dude posing as a black dude online. Think I haven't seen your lot many times over? Poser.
Click to expand...


Who said I was black jack ass? black people and white people are the only 2 races in the world.


----------



## Valerie

Ozmar said:


> Valerie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *South Korea says it will retaliate with missile strikes against the North if faced with "further provocations"*, after an exchange of fire in which two South Korean marines were killed.
> 
> President Lee Myung-bak was responding to the shelling of an inhabited island close to a disputed maritime border.
> 
> The South returned fire in one of the worst clashes since the Korean War.
> 
> US President Barack Obama called the incident an "outrageous, provocative act" by Pyongyang.
> 
> He was speaking ahead of an expected telephone call to President Lee.
> 
> The South Korean military had been carrying out an exercise near Yeonpyeong island, and the North accused the South of opening the hostilities - something Seoul denies.
> 
> The South says North Korean shells started falling in the waters off the island at 1434 local time (0534 GMT) on Tuesday.
> 
> *At least 50 landed directly on the island, most of them hitting a South Korean military base there. In addition to the two deaths, 16 South Korean marines and three civilians were injured.*
> 
> The South fired back some 80 shells. Casualties on the northern side are unknown.
> 
> 
> 
> BBC News - Border clash prompts South Korean missile warning
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> So you are saying this is all South Korea's fault? Typical apologist.
Click to expand...




  So are you saying you beat your wife?  Typical wife beater!


----------



## Ozmar

High_Gravity said:


> Ozmar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> Doubt it, I'm not white.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure you are. You're some white dude posing as a black dude online. Think I haven't seen your lot many times over? Poser.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who said I was black jack ass? black people and white people are the only 2 races in the world.
Click to expand...


I didn't say you were black. I said you are a white dude posing as a black dude. I in effect said you are white. Learn how to read.


----------



## Ozmar

Valerie said:


> Ozmar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Valerie said:
> 
> 
> 
> BBC News - Border clash prompts South Korean missile warning
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you are saying this is all South Korea's fault? Typical apologist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So are you saying you beat your wife?  Typical wife beater!
Click to expand...


Red herring.

If you were my wife I probably would be a wife beater.

The wife beating analogy works if you say "it was the wife's fault."


----------



## Valerie

Ozmar said:


> If you were my wife I probably would be a wife beater.




Nice!


----------



## Ozmar

Valerie said:


> Ozmar said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you were my wife I probably would be a wife beater.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nice!
Click to expand...


If you plan to sling shit, expect to get yourself dirtied. Kind of like North Korea.


----------



## Valerie

Ozmar said:


> Valerie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ozmar said:
> 
> 
> 
> So you are saying this is all South Korea's fault? Typical apologist.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So are you saying you beat your wife?  Typical wife beater!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Red herring.
> 
> If you were my wife I probably would be a wife beater.
> 
> The wife beating analogy works if you say "it was the wife's fault."
Click to expand...



PS genius, you pulled the accusation that I'm _a North Korea apologist_ out of your ass just like I pulled you're _a wife beater_ out of mine...Get it now?


I happen to have a dear loved one serving in the US Army over in South Korea, so you can STFU any time now, asshole.


----------



## Ozmar

Valerie said:


> Ozmar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Valerie said:
> 
> 
> 
> *So are you saying you beat your wife?  Typical wife beater!*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Red herring.
> 
> If you were my wife I probably would be a wife beater.
> 
> The wife beating analogy works if you say "it was the wife's fault."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> PS genius, you pulled the accusation that I'm _a North Korea apologist_ out of your ass just like I pulled you're _a wife beater_ out of mine...Get it now?
> 
> 
> I happen to have a dear loved one serving in the US Army over in South Korea, so you can STFU any time now, asshole.
Click to expand...


I have bolded the offending part of your quote. Spin on it.


----------



## Trajan

Last March they sank a so kor. DD with the loss of 46 lives. One would think wed have had a plan to handle another similar provocation and when I say we I mean the so kos and the US since we are in this context inextricably tied into the region and the peninsula  ala a defense pact etc. ANY responses actions etc. are of course driven by the South Kos since they are the target and lose the lives and would suffer the most if any outbreak of mass hostilities occurs. 

At the end of the day, nothing that will tip the cart will be done from/by the south, imho. They wont close the means that provides the Norths largest infusion of hard cash, via the Kaesong industrial complex. That would hurt most, but alas.

 Though the north abuses the system that is setup, basically robbing the payrolls of up to 50% of the funds sent to pay the norths workers there ( by the south and us),  the south doesnt want to cause the collapse of the north, because unlike the Germans (west/east uni.) they have no taste for a peninsula/country wide unification. 

So, despite the list of awfuls perpetrated by the north-  so. Ko cabinet members assassinated, airliner shot down, ships sunk,  commandos landed to kill so kos, snatch and grabs of so kor.  Citizens, nuclear proliferation etc.,  the north after all has nukes and they can and many believe they would bomb Seoul , this is the final wild card. This what comes of hard intimidation and soft blackmail. 

Winter is upon the north, as usual their economy is a mess, they need food stuffs, fuel, money And the south ( and us) once this dies down will send it. Watch. The north has played the last 2 admins. here and is playing the third.  


One wonders what will happen should other bad actors acquire nuclear weapons, there by making rendering themselves hands off.


----------



## georgephillip

JakeStarkey said:


> georgephillip, you mind giving us some links that lead to some validated sources?


JakeStarkey:

Link 1 from the Left:

"*Korea was a Japanese colony from 1910 to 1945*. 

"As the Japanese prepared to surrender to the Allies, they did what they did elsewhere in Asia: they turned over power to local people in the hope that the western powers wouldn't colonize, or continue to colonize, Asian nations. 

"(One of the principle outcomes of the Pacific War was that it indeed helped produce the end of colonial administrations in the Philippines, Indonesia, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Burma, Malaysia, etc.) 

"Leaders of self-governing people's committees opposed to Japanese occupation formed the '*Korean People's Republic' in Seoul on September 6, 1945*.

Note: Korean War began 25 June 1950. 

"*It had a broad-based leadership ranging from right to left*. 

"When Lieutenant General John R. Hodge, leader of the U.S. occupation of Korea, arrived in Inchon soon thereafter, he ordered Japanese authorities to remain at their posts, refused to acknowledge the newly-formed republic, and indeed even banned all reference to it. 

"The U.S. would be in charge of what was seen as a defeated enemy nation. *This attitude produced widespread resentment and resistance in Korea*.

Imagine that.

Possibly the Koreans who had been united from the 7th Century until 1945 thought they could manage their own country. 

One of the few things Koreans from North and South agree on today is that the reason they're no longer united is "due primarily to the actions of the Truman administration and the US military."

North Korea for Dummies


----------



## Trajan

we propped up Rhee after ww2 when it became apparent the ussr and Chinese were screwing around, but frankly it goes back further than that good ole Teddy played the Koreas too ( so did Taft)   in their days. 
And Rhee was no angel, far from it.


----------



## Toome

I remember in 1984 when a Soviet citizen ran across the Line of Demarcation in the JSA into South Korea trying to defect.  North Korean guards chased after him, firing their weapons.  The joint US-ROK JSA troops returned fire, established a defensive perimeter while a company-sized quick reaction force immediately deployed into the JSA and outmaneuvered the North Koreans.  It was about a 45-minute firefight that resulted in 3 dead North Korean soldiers, 5 wounded and about a dozen of them captured.  Rumor had it that bombers were already airborne from Clark AFB enroute to the Korean Peninsula and that certain "special assets" were already activated.  Don't know how much of that is truth and how much is fiction; however, it would not surprise me if it was more truth than urban legend.

When that incident happened, rumor had it that South Korean military officers, upon being alerted, went through the ritual of cutting themselves, letting the blood drop into a creek or river, and yelled "Tong-il" (One land, one people!).  This is what convinced me that we were not there to protect the South from the North.  We're there to keep the South from taking over the North.

Unification is a very emotional and deeply cultural issue for the Koreans.  At least it was when I was there in 1984-85 & 1998-99.  While many speculate on the North Korean's "million man army" and supposed nuclear strike capability, I think the South is militarily superior, is much better trained, better equipped and more motivated.  If this turns into a shooting war, I think the South would destroy the North.  It would be a very bloody war with tremendous civilian casualties, but the South would prevail.

Hope we never find out.


----------



## georgephillip

Ozmar said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moon said:
> 
> 
> 
> I guess the north shouldn't have invaded the south then.  You know, that whole actions having consequences thing.
> 
> 
> 
> The North Koreans "invaded" in response to a US occupation that was killing thousands of Koreans who wanted the Americans to go the hell home.
> 
> The fact you're too brainwashed to know your own history is the only bull I see.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If the North Koreans had succeeded, South Korea would be sharing the North's prosperity right now. American bastards!
Click to expand...

Pop Quiz on Korea:

"After the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-5, Japan acquired control over Korea, annexing it formally in 1910. In 1905 Japanese Prime Minister Katsura Tarô met secretly with U.S. Secretary of War William Howard Taft, producing the Taft-Katsura Agreement in which the U.S. recognized Japan's interests in Korea. What did the U.S. receive in return?

    a. Japanese agreement to limit emigration to the U.S.

* b. Japanese recognition of U.S. colonial rule over the Philippines.*

    c. Japan's renunciation to all claims to the Hawai'ian Islands.

"At the Yalta Conference in February 1945, U.S. President Roosevelt and Soviet leader Joseph Stalin discussed the postwar future of Korea. Stalin advocated independence as soon as possible. Roosevelt

    a. agreed to immediate independence

* b. advocated a trusteeship of 20-30 years, citing the positive example of U.S. rule in the Philippines*

    c. suggested Korea remain a part of the Japanese Empire, to be occupied by Allied forces.

"In August 1945 defeated Japanese forces formally turned over authority in Korea to the broad-based Committee for the Preparation of Korean Independence, led by Lyuh Woon-hyung, which in September proclaimed the Korean People's Republic (KPR). When U.S. forces under Gen. Reed Hodge arrived in Inchon to accept the Japanese surrender, they

* a. ordered all Japanese officials to remain in their posts, refused to recognize Lyuh as national leader, and soon banned all public reference to the KPR*

    b. recognized Lyuh as the legitimate head of state

    c. negotiated with Lyuh to facilitate swift attainment of independence of a united Korea.

"How many people, military plus civilians, died in the Korean War?

    a. 500,000-1 million

    b. 1 million-2 million

*c. about 4 million*

Bonus Question:

As of December 31, 2002

"Current South Korean public opinion polls indicate that the foreign country people most fear is

    a. the U.S.

    b. North Korea

    c. China

?


----------



## GHook93

I think Clint Eastwood speaks for all of us when he says:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CipXIx34jTI[/ame]






georgephillip said:


> Ozmar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> The North Koreans "invaded" in response to a US occupation that was killing thousands of Koreans who wanted the Americans to go the hell home.
> 
> The fact you're too brainwashed to know your own history is the only bull I see.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the North Koreans had succeeded, South Korea would be sharing the North's prosperity right now. American bastards!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Pop Quiz on Korea:
> 
> "After the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-5, Japan acquired control over Korea, annexing it formally in 1910. In 1905 Japanese Prime Minister Katsura Tarô met secretly with U.S. Secretary of War William Howard Taft, producing the Taft-Katsura Agreement in which the U.S. recognized Japan's interests in Korea. What did the U.S. receive in return?
> 
> a. Japanese agreement to limit emigration to the U.S.
> 
> * b. Japanese recognition of U.S. colonial rule over the Philippines.*
> 
> c. Japan's renunciation to all claims to the Hawai'ian Islands.
> 
> "At the Yalta Conference in February 1945, U.S. President Roosevelt and Soviet leader Joseph Stalin discussed the postwar future of Korea. Stalin advocated independence as soon as possible. Roosevelt
> 
> a. agreed to immediate independence
> 
> * b. advocated a trusteeship of 20-30 years, citing the positive example of U.S. rule in the Philippines*
> 
> c. suggested Korea remain a part of the Japanese Empire, to be occupied by Allied forces.
> 
> "In August 1945 defeated Japanese forces formally turned over authority in Korea to the broad-based Committee for the Preparation of Korean Independence, led by Lyuh Woon-hyung, which in September proclaimed the Korean People's Republic (KPR). When U.S. forces under Gen. Reed Hodge arrived in Inchon to accept the Japanese surrender, they
> 
> * a. ordered all Japanese officials to remain in their posts, refused to recognize Lyuh as national leader, and soon banned all public reference to the KPR*
> 
> b. recognized Lyuh as the legitimate head of state
> 
> c. negotiated with Lyuh to facilitate swift attainment of independence of a united Korea.
> 
> "How many people, military plus civilians, died in the Korean War?
> 
> a. 500,000-1 million
> 
> b. 1 million-2 million
> 
> *c. about 4 million*
> 
> Bonus Question:
> 
> As of December 31, 2002
> 
> "Current South Korean public opinion polls indicate that the foreign country people most fear is
> 
> a. the U.S.
> 
> b. North Korea
> 
> c. China
> 
> ?
Click to expand...


----------



## georgephillip

Moon said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moon said:
> 
> 
> 
> I guess the north shouldn't have invaded the south then.  You know, that whole actions having consequences thing.
> 
> 
> 
> The North Koreans "invaded" in response to a US occupation that was killing thousands of Koreans who wanted the Americans to go the hell home.
> 
> The fact you're too brainwashed to know your own history is the only bull I see.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What nonsense.  The north invaded in an attempt to reunify the peninsula under communist rule.  They failed and millions of Koreans died as a result.  As far as your attempt to blame the US "occupation", we had virtually no troops in Korea at the time the north invaded.  Most had been withdrawn the year before.
Click to expand...

We had about 500 troops in 1950 after using the preceding five years to impose a right-wing dictator, Syngman Rhee and his security forces, that included former Japanese collaborators, on a South Korean population that wanted no part of Rhee or his western benefactors.

"In December 1945, Korea was administered by a USUSSR Joint Commission, as agreed at the Moscow Conference (1945). 

"*The Koreans were excluded from the talks*. 

"The commission decided the country would become independent after a five-year trusteeship action facilitated by each régime sharing its sponsor's ideology.[38]:256[63] 

"*The Korean populace revolted; in the south, some protested, and some rose in arms;[39] to contain them, the USAMGIK banned strikes on 8 December 1945 and outlawed the PRK Revolutionary Government and the PRK People's Committees on 12 December 1945*.

"On 23 September 1946 an 8,000-strong railroad worker strike began in Pusan. Civil disorder spread throughout the country in what became known as the Autumn uprising. 

"On 1 October 1946, Korean police killed three students in the Daegu Uprising; protesters counter-attacked, killing 38 policemen. 

"On 3 October, some 10,000 people attacked the Yeongcheon police station, killing three policemen and injuring some 40 more; elsewhere, some 20 landlords and pro-Japanese South Korean officials were killed.[60] 

"*The USAMGIK declared martial law*.

"The right-wing Representative Democratic Council, led by nationalist Syngman Rhee, opposed the SovietAmerican trusteeship of Korea, arguing that after 35 years (191045) of Japanese colonial rule most Koreans opposed another foreign occupation. 

"The USAMGIK decided to forego the five year trusteeship agreed upon in Moscow, given the 31 March 1948 United Nations election deadline to achieve an anti-communist civil government in the *US Korean Zone of Occupation*.

"On 3 April what began as a demonstration commemorating Korean resistance to Japanese rule ended with the Jeju massacre of as many as 60,000 citizens by South Korean soldiers."

It was incidents like Jeju that led "North" Korea to "invade."

Korean War - Wiki


----------



## Foxfyre

The Jeju rebellion was a Korean rebellion against JAPANESE rule and had little, if anything, to do with the war between the North and South.

The war was started by the North Koreans invading the south not due to any kind of retaliation but to bring South Korea under communist rule.  After getting permission from the USSR along with their assurance the USA would not interfere, Kim Il Sung  launched a surprise invasion of South Korea on June 25, 1950. In the following days, the UN Security Council condemned the attack and demanded an immediate withdrawal.  I lost two family members in that conflict and an uncle who later died young in part due to severe injuries sustained in Korea.


----------



## JakeStarkey

georgephillip said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip, you mind giving us some links that lead to some validated sources?
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey:
> 
> Link 1 from the Left:
> 
> "*Korea was a Japanese colony from 1910 to 1945*.
> 
> "As the Japanese prepared to surrender to the Allies, they did what they did elsewhere in Asia: they turned over power to local people in the hope that the western powers wouldn't colonize, or continue to colonize, Asian nations.
> 
> "(One of the principle outcomes of the Pacific War was that it indeed helped produce the end of colonial administrations in the Philippines, Indonesia, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Burma, Malaysia, etc.)
> 
> "Leaders of self-governing people's committees opposed to Japanese occupation formed the '*Korean People's Republic' in Seoul on September 6, 1945*.
> 
> Note: Korean War began 25 June 1950.
> 
> "*It had a broad-based leadership ranging from right to left*.
> 
> "When Lieutenant General John R. Hodge, leader of the U.S. occupation of Korea, arrived in Inchon soon thereafter, he ordered Japanese authorities to remain at their posts, refused to acknowledge the newly-formed republic, and indeed even banned all reference to it.
> 
> "The U.S. would be in charge of what was seen as a defeated enemy nation. *This attitude produced widespread resentment and resistance in Korea*.
> 
> Imagine that.
> 
> Possibly the Koreans who had been united from the 7th Century until 1945 thought they could manage their own country.
> 
> One of the few things Koreans from North and South agree on today is that the reason they're no longer united is "due primarily to the actions of the Truman administration and the US military."
> 
> North Korea for Dummies
Click to expand...


No, the Japanese never turned over power to the conquered peoples because they would have murdered their oppressors, particularly the Korean.  I served two tours there, and even then they hated the Japanese.

You did not document thousands of deaths caused by American occupation.

American, British, French, Dutch authorities all had the Japanese maintain civil and police power until the governing nations sent units.  If  you are suggesting that the Americans supported a continuation of European imperialism at the local inhabitant's right to freedom, you are correct.

Far more death, destruction, and devastation to the peoples and the infrastructure would have occurred if the Japanese had surrendered to the locals.  They knew better.

Addendum: having read the rest above, you are anti-colonialist and anti-imperialist who believes the aspirations of the Korean people were thwarted by the imperialists instead of having them thwarted by the native communists.  If it is a choice between bad and worse, the South Koreans got the better deal.

Having lived in Korea as an American soldier and later as a civilian, I can tell you the people, although they detested Rhee and later the government of generals, they wanted nothing to do with the communist North other to unify it and put the leaders against the and have them shot.


----------



## georgephillip

"The Jeju Uprising (Korean: &#51228;&#51452; 4·3 &#48124;&#51473;&#54637;&#51137;, Hanja: &#28639;&#24030; 4·3 &#27665;&#34886;&#25239;&#29229 refers to the rebellion on Jeju island, South Korea, beginning on *April 3, 1948*. 

"*Between 14,000 and 60,000 i*ndividuals were killed in fighting or execution between various factions on the island. 

"T*he suppression of rebellion by the South Korean army has been called 'brutal', resulting in tens of thousands of deaths,* the destruction of many villages on the island, and sparking rebellions on the Korean mainland. 

"The rebellion, which included the mutiny of several hundred members of the South Korean 11th Constabulary Regiment, lasted until May 1949, although small isolated pockets of fighting continued into 1953.[3][4] 

"Many residents of Jeju escaped from the massacre to Japan, and some of them made their Jeju town in Osaka.

Wiki

War is a Racket where the cost in blood and money is not shared by those who profit from the killing.


----------



## georgephillip

JakeStarkey said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip, you mind giving us some links that lead to some validated sources?
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey:
> 
> Link 1 from the Left:
> 
> "*Korea was a Japanese colony from 1910 to 1945*.
> 
> "As the Japanese prepared to surrender to the Allies, they did what they did elsewhere in Asia: they turned over power to local people in the hope that the western powers wouldn't colonize, or continue to colonize, Asian nations.
> 
> "(One of the principle outcomes of the Pacific War was that it indeed helped produce the end of colonial administrations in the Philippines, Indonesia, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Burma, Malaysia, etc.)
> 
> "Leaders of self-governing people's committees opposed to Japanese occupation formed the '*Korean People's Republic' in Seoul on September 6, 1945*.
> 
> Note: Korean War began 25 June 1950.
> 
> "*It had a broad-based leadership ranging from right to left*.
> 
> "When Lieutenant General John R. Hodge, leader of the U.S. occupation of Korea, arrived in Inchon soon thereafter, he ordered Japanese authorities to remain at their posts, refused to acknowledge the newly-formed republic, and indeed even banned all reference to it.
> 
> "The U.S. would be in charge of what was seen as a defeated enemy nation. *This attitude produced widespread resentment and resistance in Korea*.
> 
> Imagine that.
> 
> Possibly the Koreans who had been united from the 7th Century until 1945 thought they could manage their own country.
> 
> One of the few things Koreans from North and South agree on today is that the reason they're no longer united is "due primarily to the actions of the Truman administration and the US military."
> 
> North Korea for Dummies
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, the Japanese never turned over power to the conquered peoples because they would have murdered their oppressors, particularly the Korean.  I served two tours there, and even then they hated the Japanese.
> 
> You did not document thousands of deaths caused by American occupation.
> 
> American, British, French, Dutch authorities all had the Japanese maintain civil and police power until the governing nations sent units.  If  you are suggesting that the Americans supported a continuation of European imperialism at the local inhabitant's right to freedom, you are correct.
> 
> Far more death, destruction, and devastation to the peoples and the infrastructure would have occurred if the Japanese had surrendered to the locals.  They knew better.
> 
> Addendum: having read the rest above, you are anti-colonialist and anti-imperialist who believes the aspirations of the Korean people were thwarted by the imperialists instead of having them thwarted by the native communists.  If it is a choice between bad and worse, the South Koreans got the better deal.
> 
> Having lived in Korea as an American soldier and later as a civilian, I can tell you the people, although they detested Rhee and later the government of generals, they wanted nothing to do with the communist North other to unify it and put the leaders against the and have them shot.
Click to expand...

"At the Potsdam Conference (July&#8211;August 1945), the Allies unilaterally decided to divide Korea&#8212;*without consulting the Koreans&#8212;in contradiction of the Cairo Conference.*[38]:24[46]:24&#8211;5[60]:25[61]

"On 8 September 1945, Lt. Gen. John R. Hodge of the United States arrived in Incheon to accept the Japanese surrender south of the 38th parallel.[46] 

"Appointed as military governor, General Hodge directly controlled South Korea via the United States Army Military Government in Korea (USAMGIK 1945&#8211;48).[62]:63 

"*He established control by restoring to power the key Japanese colonial administrators and their Korean police collaborators*.[31]

"The USAMGIK refused to recognise the provisional government of the short-lived People's Republic of Korea (PRK) because he suspected it was communist. 

"These policies, voiding popular Korean sovereignty, provoked the civil insurrections and guerrilla warfare.[39] 

I don't have your first hand experiences with Korea.

The question I do have is whether there would ever have been a "Communist" North and "Capitalist" South in Korea if the Korean's People's Republic formed in Seoul on September 6, 1945 had not been undermined by the US and USSR?

Wiki


----------



## Trajan

george....whats your point in all this?


----------



## JakeStarkey

I have a problematic answer: we will never know because the Koreans were the pawns of the Communist east and the Capitalist west.  I do know by the time I got there, both North and South hated Japan still (still do today), and the North and the South were in a military standoff.

On a side note.  The ROKS were superior soldiers: in shape, disciplined, scared only of their NCOs and officers.  They were OK on the offensive, tigers on the defense, and without leadership still did not seemed inclined to be surrender monkeys.  I attended the ROK American Ranger school in the mountains above Ouijan-bu.  Judas Priest, that was tough training!  Their cadre beat their recruits, made us Americans push up so much we looked like minature Popeyes.  What a hoot!  To top it off we got to slide down a metal chain off a cliff 250 feet high hanging on to a D bar with no safety straps and land in a small marina.  I saw one Korean kid hit the water and skip like a thrown stone right into a retaining wall.  Blood was everywhere!  It was one of the best three weeks of my life.

Back on track: naw, the Japanese were never ot going to surrender to the captive populations they had oppressed.


----------



## georgephillip

Trajan said:


> george....whats your point in all this?


It's the same point Albert Einstein and Bertrand Russell made far better than I ever will in 1955:

"The choice facing the world is 'stark and dreadful and inescapable: shall we put an end to the human race; or shall mankind renounce war?'"

With the exception of civil war in Israel, I believe Korea poses the greatest threat for ending the human race through war.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Perhaps, but I do not think either Russia or China will support NK nukes going off.  The air forces of five nations will pulverize NK into the ground.  If nuclear, South Korea and perhaps Japan get hit.  Terrible to think of.


----------



## georgephillip

JakeStarkey said:


> I have a problematic answer: we will never know because the Koreans were the pawns of the Communist east and the Capitalist west.  I do know by the time I got there, both North and South hated Japan still (still do today), and the North and the South were in a military standoff.
> 
> On a side note.  The ROKS were superior soldiers: in shape, disciplined, scared only of their NCOs and officers.  They were OK on the offensive, tigers on the defense, and without leadership still did not seemed inclined to be surrender monkeys.  I attended the ROK American Ranger school in the mountains above Ouijan-bu.  Judas Priest, that was tough training!  Their cadre beat their recruits, made us Americans push up so much we looked like minature Popeyes.  What a hoot!  To top it off we got to slide down a metal chain off a cliff 250 feet high hanging on to a D bar with no safety straps and land in a small marina.  I saw one Korean kid hit the water and skip like a thrown stone right into a retaining wall.  Blood was everywhere!  It was one of the best three weeks of my life.
> 
> Back on track: naw, the Japanese were never ot going to surrender to the captive populations they had oppressed.


Jake:

My "experience" with ROKS comes second-hand from a Tae Kwon Do instructor (Larry) who received his first black belt when he was stationed in Korea during the Vietnam War.

Larry was an all-State wrestling champion in high school whose Korean teacher was the #1 ranked fighter among 300 ROK Tigers also stationed on the base. Larry's ordeal sounds very similar to what you went through, i.e., Pak (Larry's teacher) cracked three of Larry's ribs on a Friday, then showed up the following Monday and made Larry go through a light workout.

Larry was the only Westerner ever to get a black belt from Pak, and I suspect it kept him out of prison or an early grave.

Back on track...I never meant to imply the Japanese would have surrendered to Koreans, only that Japan did not want to lose the war and allow their empire to fall into western hands. That was why they tried to hand authority to Lyuh Woon-hyung in September 1945.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Thanks for the correction, and your guy, Larry, sounds a lot tougher than me.  The Tiger and White Divisions were superior outfits and Mr. Charles and his pals were terrified of them.  I don't think the 'peoples party' there (do I have that right?) could have protected the Japanese even if he promised to do so.  Yes, significant portions of the Japanese military right up to the second atomic bomb and a day or two thereafter were in denial, believing that somehow the roof was not going to fall in.  Then the Emperor (the major war criminal who survived unharmed) went on the radio, and the role of the samurai ended in Japan.  Forever?  Only time and history will tell.


----------



## georgephillip

JakeStarkey said:


> Perhaps, but I do not think either Russia or China will support NK nukes going off.  The air forces of five nations will pulverize NK into the ground.  If nuclear, South Korea and perhaps Japan get hit.  Terrible to think of.


Does NK have a missile capable of carrying a nuclear warhead that can reach Japan? (Guam?)


----------



## JW Frogen

The US and South Korea attempted concessions all through the 90s with food and oil aid and the Sunshine Policy, they did not work.

The killer cult of the Kims (the dead father is still President of North Korea rendering this paranoid state a necrocracy) only sees concession as weakness and motive to ask for more concessions.

The key is China, this regime only survives with the support and complicity of China, we must make it in China's self interest to pressure this regime, make the cost to China greater than her current policy of maintaining the retched Hermit Kingdom.

How, the US should send more naval force directly off the coast, overwhelming naval force, which would have China protesting and concerned but which China could do nothing about. Then tell them if you reign in North Korea that force leaves. 

If this does not work, threaten to arm Japan to the teeth, which China would rightly fear for historical reasons.

The key is China, and China only ever acts in her self interest. We have to make the Chinese policy of maintaining North Korea not in her self interest.

But make no mistake, appeasing this horrid tryanny is the road to perdition.


----------



## GHook93

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CipXIx34jTI&feature=player_embedded[/ame]





georgephillip said:


> Trajan said:
> 
> 
> 
> george....whats your point in all this?
> 
> 
> 
> It's the same point Albert Einstein and Bertrand Russell made far better than I ever will in 1955:
> 
> "The choice facing the world is 'stark and dreadful and inescapable: shall we put an end to the human race; or shall mankind renounce war?'"
> 
> With the exception of civil war in Israel, I believe Korea poses the greatest threat for ending the human race through war.
Click to expand...


----------



## Trajan

georgephillip said:


> Trajan said:
> 
> 
> 
> george....whats your point in all this?
> 
> 
> 
> It's the same point Albert Einstein and Bertrand Russell made far better than I ever will in 1955:
> 
> "The choice facing the world is 'stark and dreadful and inescapable: shall we put an end to the human race; or shall mankind renounce war?'"
> 
> With the exception of civil war in Israel, I believe Korea poses the greatest threat for ending the human race through war.
Click to expand...


well, don't hold your breath. Nor. korea is relativity isolated geographically, china its only land neighbor and so ko to the south, no navy etc....now, take Iran, when they have a nuke, there is all sorts of shit they can get into as they sit like a spider in the web...but I digress.

George even if no kor lobbed a nuke, that would not unleash anything that would spill past the region, I  believe it would be isolated to the peninsula just for the reasons I mentioned...

Old Bertrand sent JFK a note at the height of the Cuban crisis...he asked Kennedy to stop this madness...you know what Kennedy said?


----------



## georgephillip

JW Frogen said:


> The US and South Korea attempted concessions all through the 90s with food and oil aid and the Sunshine Policy, they did not work.
> 
> The killer cult of the Kims (the dead father is still President of North Korea rendering this paranoid state a necrocracy) only sees concession as weakness and motive to ask for more concessions.
> 
> The key is China, this regime only survives with the support and complicity of China, we must make it in China's self interest to pressure this regime, make the cost to China greater than her current policy of maintaining the retched Hermit Kingdom.
> 
> How, the US should send more naval force directly off the coast, overwhelming naval force, which would have China protesting and concerned but which China could do nothing about. Then tell them if you reign in North Korea that force leaves.
> 
> If this does not work, threaten to arm Japan to the teeth, which China would rightly fear for historical reasons.
> 
> The key is China, and China only ever acts in her self interest. We have to make the Chinese policy of maintaining North Korea not in her self interest.
> 
> But make no mistake, appeasing this horrid tryanny is the road to perdition.


While I'm not disputing any of your points, I would like to point out there are certainly details we don't get from consuming "headlines in a vacuum:"

"While North Korean leader Kim Jong Il is a madman, and while North Korea was the first to kill anyone in today's skirmish, it *was actually the South Koreans who fired first*.

"As AP notes:

    "The skirmish began when Pyongyang [i.e. North Korea] warned the South to halt military drills in the area, according to South Korean officials. When Seoul [i.e. South Korea] refused and began firing artillery into disputed waters, albeit away from the North Korean shore, the North retaliated by bombarding the small island of Yeonpyeong, which houses South Korean military installations....

"And see this.

"In addition, the two South Koreans killed were marines, not civilians, stationed in a military town.

"Obviously, firing artillery into the water and actually killing people are very different, and I am in no way defending North Korea or its crazy leader. 

"I am simply trying to point out that the headlines can't be taken in a vacuum.

Skirmish between...


----------



## Trajan

georgephillip said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps, but I do not think either Russia or China will support NK nukes going off.  The air forces of five nations will pulverize NK into the ground.  If nuclear, South Korea and perhaps Japan get hit.  Terrible to think of.
> 
> 
> 
> Does NK have a missile capable of carrying a nuclear warhead that can reach Japan? (Guam?)
Click to expand...


yes they have on that can reach japan. Guam? no, not yet.


----------



## georgephillip

Trajan said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trajan said:
> 
> 
> 
> george....whats your point in all this?
> 
> 
> 
> It's the same point Albert Einstein and Bertrand Russell made far better than I ever will in 1955:
> 
> "The choice facing the world is 'stark and dreadful and inescapable: shall we put an end to the human race; or shall mankind renounce war?'"
> 
> With the exception of civil war in Israel, I believe Korea poses the greatest threat for ending the human race through war.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> well, don't hold your breath. Nor. korea is relativity isolated geographically, china its only land neighbor and so ko to the south, no navy etc....now, take Iran, when they have a nuke, there is all sorts of shit they can get into as they sit like a spider in the web...but I digress.
> 
> George even if no kor lobbed a nuke, that would not unleash anything that would spill past the region, I  believe it would be isolated to the peninsula just for the reasons I mentioned...
> 
> Old Bertrand sent JFK a note at the height of the Cuban crisis...he asked Kennedy to stop this madness...you know what Kennedy said?
Click to expand...

Firstly, what was Kennedy's reply?

Secondly, could NK lob a nuke at Japan or Guam?

I'm relatively sure that nine times out of ten an incident like this one will blow over within a few days; however, sooner or later an incident like this one will simply BLOW mushroom clouds over a few days.


----------



## JBeukema

SK is now admitting they fired the first shots



> North Korea has blamed its southern neighbours for initiating the exchange of fire.
> 
> "Despite  our repeated warnings, South Korea fired dozens of shells from 1pm ...  and we've taken strong military action immediately," the North's  official KCNA news agency said in a brief statement. It did not elaborate whether North Korea had suffered any damage from the exchange of fire.
> North Korea's supreme command later vowed "merciless military attacks  with no hesitation if the South Korean enemy dares to invade our sea  territory by 0.001 mm".
> 
> South Korea said it was conducting  military drills off the west coast, but that its firing exercises were  not aimed towards the North



South Korea president warns North - Asia-Pacific - Al Jazeera English


----------



## JBeukema

Trajan said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps, but I do not think either Russia or China will support NK nukes going off.  The air forces of five nations will pulverize NK into the ground.  If nuclear, South Korea and perhaps Japan get hit.  Terrible to think of.
> 
> 
> 
> Does NK have a missile capable of carrying a nuclear warhead that can reach Japan? (Guam?)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> yes they have on that can reach japan. Guam? no, not yet.
Click to expand...

That we know of


we didn't know they had a new refinery until they decided to tell us


----------



## Trajan

georgephillip said:


> While I'm not disputing any of your points, I would like to point out there are certainly details we don't get from consuming "headlines in a vacuum:"
> 
> "While North Korean leader Kim Jong Il is a madman, and while North Korea was the first to kill anyone in today's skirmish, it *was actually the South Koreans who fired first*.



speaking of vacuums? are you in an intellectual vacuum George? Your allusion is preposterous,. firing into the sea followed up by strikes into a populated area? 




> "
> "And see this.
> 
> "In addition, the two South Koreans killed were marines, not civilians, stationed in a military town.



I am really stretching to understand why this is germane? 



> "Obviously, firing artillery into the water and actually killing people are very different, and I am in no way defending North Korea or its crazy leader.
> 
> "I am simply trying to point out that the headlines can't be taken in a vacuum.
> 
> Skirmish between...



yet that appears to be exactly what you are doing.why eve mention it?  unless....?

and jfk told dear old Bertrand he best take issue with the burglar not the policeman. paraphrased but very close and in the spirit.


----------



## JBeukema

Trajan said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> While I'm not disputing any of your points, I would like to point out there are certainly details we don't get from consuming "headlines in a vacuum:"
> 
> "While North Korean leader Kim Jong Il is a madman, and while North Korea was the first to kill anyone in today's skirmish, it *was actually the South Koreans who fired first*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> speaking of vacuums? are you in an intellectual vacuum George? Your allusion is preposterous,. firing into the sea followed up by strikes into a populated area?
Click to expand...


Firing towards a hostile nation is not likely to get a good response. One has to wonder what SK was thinking.


----------



## Trajan

they were doing what they have done many times in many drills. its harmless.


----------



## Cain

I cannot believe North Korea attacked South Korea. I mean, I understand their very aggressive, but...I don't know, seems like no one likes them. I have read a few books on Post-Korean War politics, and the books really emphasized how Japan really despises North Korea. I have also heard China won't stick with them through anything, so I mean. Japan/South Korea + Everyone else, which I believe the US would be part of, vs North Korea. I am sure they could inflict a heavy loss, but their demise seems assured, whether militarily or economically.


----------



## Flopper

President Obama and South Korea expressed outrage at the surprise North Korean attack on an island as experts warned Tuesday that the incident could escalate into a major conflict if the North does not stand down.

Surprise North Korean attack on South sparks outrage - USATODAY.com

Just more saber rattling or is this the beginning of something much bigger?


----------



## georgephillip

JBeukema said:


> Trajan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> While I'm not disputing any of your points, I would like to point out there are certainly details we don't get from consuming "headlines in a vacuum:"
> 
> "While North Korean leader Kim Jong Il is a madman, and while North Korea was the first to kill anyone in today's skirmish, it *was actually the South Koreans who fired first*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> speaking of vacuums? are you in an intellectual vacuum George? Your allusion is preposterous,. firing into the sea followed up by strikes into a populated area?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Firing towards a hostile nation is not likely to get a good response. One has to wonder what SK was thinking.
Click to expand...

The impression I have is that SK was firing to the west, into the sea and not to the north towards NK.

However the island's ownership is disputed by both Koreas and so is are the waters around it. While it's perfectly true NK leaders are deranged, the current president of SK is also greedy enough to personally profit from increased arms sales that incidents like this usually generate.

War is Still a Racket.


----------



## Valerie

JBeukema said:


> Trajan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> While I'm not disputing any of your points, I would like to point out there are certainly details we don't get from consuming "headlines in a vacuum:"
> 
> "While North Korean leader Kim Jong Il is a madman, and while North Korea was the first to kill anyone in today's skirmish, it *was actually the South Koreans who fired first*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> speaking of vacuums? are you in an intellectual vacuum George? Your allusion is preposterous,. firing into the sea followed up by strikes into a populated area?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Firing towards a hostile nation is not likely to get a good response. One has to wonder what SK was thinking.
Click to expand...



What are you talking about???  North Korea fired unprovoked.


----------



## georgephillip

Valerie said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trajan said:
> 
> 
> 
> speaking of vacuums? are you in an intellectual vacuum George? Your allusion is preposterous,. firing into the sea followed up by strikes into a populated area?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Firing towards a hostile nation is not likely to get a good response. One has to wonder what SK was thinking.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> What are you talking about???  North Korea fired unprovoked.
Click to expand...

Depends on how you define provocation:

"While North Korean leader Kim Jong Il is a madman, and while North Korea was the first to kill anyone in today's skirmish, it was actually the South Koreans who fired first.

"As AP notes:

    "The skirmish began when Pyongyang [i.e. North Korea] warned the South to halt military drills in the area, according to South Korean officials. 

"When Seoul [i.e. South Korea] refused and began firing artillery into disputed waters, albeit away from the North Korean shore, the North retaliated by bombarding the small island of Yeonpyeong, which houses South Korean military installations....

"And see this.

"In addition, the two South Koreans killed were marines, not civilians, stationed in a military town.

"Obviously, firing artillery into the water and actually killing people are very different, and I am in no way defending North Korea or its crazy leader. I am simply trying to point out that the headlines can't be taken in a vacuum."


----------



## Valerie

> *North Korea's latest unprovoked military attack on South Korea -- the shelling of Yeonpyeong Island near the Northern Limit Line demarcating the Korean Peninsula's maritime boundary* -- is a stark reminder that the Korean War never ended.
> 
> The first responsibility of the United States must remain the preservation of deterrence from outright return to war. The attacks leave the alliance with few good options for reprisal without risking a far less desirable renewal of conflict.
> 
> The United States must work with South Korea to bolster deterrence, check North Korean aggression and be ready to turn it back, but only if absolutely necessary. We will also have to operate without fully understanding the power at play in North Korea.
> 
> This year has already been a deadly one as an ailing Kim Jong Il accelerated the likely dynastic transition in power to an ill-prepared son who will be captive to aging generals in the Korean People's Army. In April, 46 South Korean crew members aboard the naval vessel Cheonan died when the vessel was ripped in two by a North Korean torpedo.
> 
> The shelling of Yeonpyeong has now left new casualties, and motives for the attack remain numerous and unclear. Could this be Kim Jong-un's next lesson regarding the use of force? That is, are the North's generals demonstrating how they can literally get away with murder with limited uses of force despite the superior military forces of the South Korea-U.S. alliance?



http://edition.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/11/23/cronin.korea.artillery/


----------



## georgephillip

Valerie said:


> *North Korea's latest unprovoked military attack on South Korea -- the shelling of Yeonpyeong Island near the Northern Limit Line demarcating the Korean Peninsula's maritime boundary* -- is a stark reminder that the Korean War never ended.
> 
> The first responsibility of the United States must remain the preservation of deterrence from outright return to war. The attacks leave the alliance with few good options for reprisal without risking a far less desirable renewal of conflict.
> 
> The United States must work with South Korea to bolster deterrence, check North Korean aggression and be ready to turn it back, but only if absolutely necessary. We will also have to operate without fully understanding the power at play in North Korea.
> 
> This year has already been a deadly one as an ailing Kim Jong Il accelerated the likely dynastic transition in power to an ill-prepared son who will be captive to aging generals in the Korean People's Army. In April, 46 South Korean crew members aboard the naval vessel Cheonan died when the vessel was ripped in two by a North Korean torpedo.
> 
> The shelling of Yeonpyeong has now left new casualties, and motives for the attack remain numerous and unclear. Could this be Kim Jong-un's next lesson regarding the use of force? That is, are the North's generals demonstrating how they can literally get away with murder with limited uses of force despite the superior military forces of the South Korea-U.S. alliance?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> North Korea's dangerous delusions - CNN.com
Click to expand...

"SEOUL, Nov. 23 (Yonhap) -- President Lee Myung-bak ordered his military Tuesday to *strike North Korea's missile base around its coastline artillery positions* if it shows signs of additional provocation, his spokeswoman said.

"In a video conference with Gen. Han Min-koo, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the president ordered 'multiple-fold retaliation' against the North for its artillery attack on a South Korean island, according to presidential spokeswoman Kim Hee-jung."

S. Korean may strike...


----------



## Cain

georgephillip said:


> Valerie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *North Korea's latest unprovoked military attack on South Korea -- the shelling of Yeonpyeong Island near the Northern Limit Line demarcating the Korean Peninsula's maritime boundary* -- is a stark reminder that the Korean War never ended.
> 
> The first responsibility of the United States must remain the preservation of deterrence from outright return to war. The attacks leave the alliance with few good options for reprisal without risking a far less desirable renewal of conflict.
> 
> The United States must work with South Korea to bolster deterrence, check North Korean aggression and be ready to turn it back, but only if absolutely necessary. We will also have to operate without fully understanding the power at play in North Korea.
> 
> This year has already been a deadly one as an ailing Kim Jong Il accelerated the likely dynastic transition in power to an ill-prepared son who will be captive to aging generals in the Korean People's Army. In April, 46 South Korean crew members aboard the naval vessel Cheonan died when the vessel was ripped in two by a North Korean torpedo.
> 
> The shelling of Yeonpyeong has now left new casualties, and motives for the attack remain numerous and unclear. Could this be Kim Jong-un's next lesson regarding the use of force? That is, are the North's generals demonstrating how they can literally get away with murder with limited uses of force despite the superior military forces of the South Korea-U.S. alliance?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> North Korea's dangerous delusions - CNN.com
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> "SEOUL, Nov. 23 (Yonhap) -- President Lee Myung-bak ordered his military Tuesday to *strike North Korea's missile base around its coastline artillery positions* if it shows signs of additional provocation, his spokeswoman said.
> 
> "In a video conference with Gen. Han Min-koo, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the president ordered 'multiple-fold retaliation' against the North for its artillery attack on a South Korean island, according to presidential spokeswoman Kim Hee-jung."
> 
> S. Korean may strike...
Click to expand...


Does anyone have the statistics to the military strengths of North Korea and South Korea? I know their are a lot of US Service Members over there, my cousin was there I think last year or the year before, he came back, I forgot exactly where.

I looked up CIA Factbook, which if is anywhere close, South Korea has a serious advantage over North Korea, but here are the links I found:

North Korea Stats- https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/kn.html
South Korea Stats- https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ks.html


----------



## JBeukema

Valerie said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trajan said:
> 
> 
> 
> speaking of vacuums? are you in an intellectual vacuum George? Your allusion is preposterous,. firing into the sea followed up by strikes into a populated area?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Firing towards a hostile nation is not likely to get a good response. One has to wonder what SK was thinking.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> What are you talking about???  North Korea fired unprovoked.
Click to expand...

SK already said they fired into disputed waters first


----------



## JBeukema

Valerie said:


> *North Korea's latest unprovoked military attack on South Korea -- the shelling of Yeonpyeong Island near the Northern Limit Line demarcating the Korean Peninsula's maritime boundary* -- is a stark reminder that the Korean War never ended.
> 
> The first responsibility of the United States must remain the preservation of deterrence from outright return to war. The attacks leave the alliance with few good options for reprisal without risking a far less desirable renewal of conflict.
> 
> The United States must work with South Korea to bolster deterrence, check North Korean aggression and be ready to turn it back, but only if absolutely necessary. We will also have to operate without fully understanding the power at play in North Korea.
> 
> This year has already been a deadly one as an ailing Kim Jong Il accelerated the likely dynastic transition in power to an ill-prepared son who will be captive to aging generals in the Korean People's Army. In April, 46 South Korean crew members aboard the naval vessel Cheonan died when the vessel was ripped in two by a North Korean torpedo.
> 
> The shelling of Yeonpyeong has now left new casualties, and motives for the attack remain numerous and unclear. Could this be Kim Jong-un's next lesson regarding the use of force? That is, are the North's generals demonstrating how they can literally get away with murder with limited uses of force despite the superior military forces of the South Korea-U.S. alliance?
> 
> 
> 
> North Korea's dangerous delusions - CNN.com
Click to expand...



Try reading past the emotion-laden headlines and finishing the articles.


----------



## Valerie

georgephillip said:


> Valerie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *North Korea's latest unprovoked military attack on South Korea -- the shelling of Yeonpyeong Island near the Northern Limit Line demarcating the Korean Peninsula's maritime boundary* -- is a stark reminder that the Korean War never ended.
> 
> The first responsibility of the United States must remain the preservation of deterrence from outright return to war. The attacks leave the alliance with few good options for reprisal without risking a far less desirable renewal of conflict.
> 
> The United States must work with South Korea to bolster deterrence, check North Korean aggression and be ready to turn it back, but only if absolutely necessary. We will also have to operate without fully understanding the power at play in North Korea.
> 
> This year has already been a deadly one as an ailing Kim Jong Il accelerated the likely dynastic transition in power to an ill-prepared son who will be captive to aging generals in the Korean People's Army. In April, 46 South Korean crew members aboard the naval vessel Cheonan died when the vessel was ripped in two by a North Korean torpedo.
> 
> The shelling of Yeonpyeong has now left new casualties, and motives for the attack remain numerous and unclear. Could this be Kim Jong-un's next lesson regarding the use of force? That is, are the North's generals demonstrating how they can literally get away with murder with limited uses of force despite the superior military forces of the South Korea-U.S. alliance?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> North Korea's dangerous delusions - CNN.com
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> "SEOUL, Nov. 23 (Yonhap) -- President Lee Myung-bak ordered his military Tuesday to *strike North Korea's missile base around its coastline artillery positions* *if it shows signs of additional provocation*, his spokeswoman said.
> 
> "In a video conference with Gen. Han Min-koo, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the president ordered 'multiple-fold retaliation' against the North for its artillery attack on a South Korean island, according to presidential spokeswoman Kim Hee-jung."
> 
> S. Korean may strike...
Click to expand...



*After North Korean strike, South Korean leaderthreatens'retaliation'*

After North Korean strike, South Korean leader threatens 'retaliation' - CNN.com


----------



## Valerie

JBeukema said:


> Valerie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *North Korea's latest unprovoked military attack on South Korea -- the shelling of Yeonpyeong Island near the Northern Limit Line demarcating the Korean Peninsula's maritime boundary* -- is a stark reminder that the Korean War never ended.
> 
> The first responsibility of the United States must remain the preservation of deterrence from outright return to war. The attacks leave the alliance with few good options for reprisal without risking a far less desirable renewal of conflict.
> 
> The United States must work with South Korea to bolster deterrence, check North Korean aggression and be ready to turn it back, but only if absolutely necessary. We will also have to operate without fully understanding the power at play in North Korea.
> 
> This year has already been a deadly one as an ailing Kim Jong Il accelerated the likely dynastic transition in power to an ill-prepared son who will be captive to aging generals in the Korean People's Army. In April, 46 South Korean crew members aboard the naval vessel Cheonan died when the vessel was ripped in two by a North Korean torpedo.
> 
> The shelling of Yeonpyeong has now left new casualties, and motives for the attack remain numerous and unclear. Could this be Kim Jong-un's next lesson regarding the use of force? That is, are the North's generals demonstrating how they can literally get away with murder with limited uses of force despite the superior military forces of the South Korea-U.S. alliance?
> 
> 
> 
> North Korea's dangerous delusions - CNN.com
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Try reading past the emotion-laden headlines and finishing the articles.
Click to expand...



  North Korea fired unprovoked.


----------



## JBeukema

I see you two have discovered bold and caps 

Let us pray you never discover the font size and colour options


----------



## dilloduck

Who gives a fuck who fired first-----is Obama reading to school kids or what ?


----------



## JBeukema

Valerie said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Valerie said:
> 
> 
> 
> North Korea's dangerous delusions - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Try reading past the emotion-laden headlines and finishing the articles.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> North Korea fired unprovoked.
Click to expand...

NK fired on Sk after SK fired into disputed waters

I understand you're emotional, but try to grasp the facts if you don't want to be recognized as a retarded child.


----------



## Valerie

JBeukema said:


> Valerie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> Firing towards a hostile nation is not likely to get a good response. One has to wonder what SK was thinking.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What are you talking about???  North Korea fired unprovoked.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> SK already said they fired into disputed waters first
Click to expand...




Nothing but a routine telegraphed training exercise...


----------



## Valerie

JBeukema said:


> Valerie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> Try reading past the emotion-laden headlines and finishing the articles.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> North Korea fired unprovoked.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> NK fired on Sk after SK fired into disputed waters
> 
> I understand you're emotional, but try to grasp the facts if you don't want to be recognized as a retarded child.
Click to expand...




So is it you who is a North Korea apologist?  You have no facts.


----------



## JBeukema

Valerie said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Valerie said:
> 
> 
> 
> What are you talking about???  North Korea fired unprovoked.
> 
> 
> 
> SK already said they fired into disputed waters first
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing but a routine telegraphed training exercise...
Click to expand...


That involved firing into disputed territory and which they were told to cease

What did they think would happen? We're dealing with a batshit insane tinpot dictator with an active nuclear program, unknown military capabilities, and napoleon complex- and his son who might or might not view this all as a game and a chance to prove how big his dick is


----------



## dilloduck

JBeukema said:


> Valerie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> SK already said they fired into disputed waters first
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing but a routine telegraphed training exercise...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That involved firing into disputed territory and which they were told to cease
> 
> What did they think would happen? We're dealing with a batshit insane tinpot dictator with an active nuclear program, unknown military capabilities, and napoleon complex- and his son who might or might not view this all as a game and a chance to prove how big his dick is
Click to expand...



and the problem is ?


----------



## JBeukema

Valerie said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Valerie said:
> 
> 
> 
> North Korea fired unprovoked.
> 
> 
> 
> NK fired on Sk after SK fired into disputed waters
> 
> I understand you're emotional, but try to grasp the facts if you don't want to be recognized as a retarded child.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So is it you who is a North Korea apologist?  You have no facts.
Click to expand...



You're an idiot.


Prove anything I've said incorrect.


I already explained earlier why we can't afford further escalation- at least not if the U.S. is expected to back SK


----------



## JBeukema

dilloduck said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Valerie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing but a routine telegraphed training exercise...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That involved firing into disputed territory and which they were told to cease
> 
> What did they think would happen? We're dealing with a batshit insane tinpot dictator with an active nuclear program, unknown military capabilities, and napoleon complex- and his son who might or might not view this all as a game and a chance to prove how big his dick is
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> and the problem is ?
Click to expand...



IDK, let's ask the dead and wounded


----------



## Valerie

JBeukema said:


> Valerie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> SK already said they fired into disputed waters first
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing but a routine telegraphed training exercise...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That involved firing into disputed territory and which they were told to cease
> 
> What did they think would happen? We're dealing with a batshit insane tinpot dictator with an active nuclear program, unknown military capabilities, and napoleon complex- and his son who might or might not view this all as a game and a chance to prove how big his dick is
Click to expand...



Thank you for admitting that he fired unprovoked.


----------



## JBeukema

Valerie said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Valerie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing but a routine telegraphed training exercise...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That involved firing into disputed territory and which they were told to cease
> 
> What did they think would happen? We're dealing with a batshit insane tinpot dictator with an active nuclear program, unknown military capabilities, and napoleon complex- and his son who might or might not view this all as a game and a chance to prove how big his dick is
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for admitting that he fired unprovoked.
Click to expand...



Dear child, you can't read, can you?

You probably think every fatherless child in Iraq who picks up an AK and shoots at our soldiers is doing so for no reason, too, don't you?


----------



## dilloduck

Valerie said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Valerie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing but a routine telegraphed training exercise...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That involved firing into disputed territory and which they were told to cease
> 
> What did they think would happen? We're dealing with a batshit insane tinpot dictator with an active nuclear program, unknown military capabilities, and napoleon complex- and his son who might or might not view this all as a game and a chance to prove how big his dick is
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for admitting that he fired unprovoked.
Click to expand...


and this matters ???
Are we picking sides or something?


----------



## JBeukema

dilloduck said:


> Valerie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> That involved firing into disputed territory and which they were told to cease
> 
> What did they think would happen? We're dealing with a batshit insane tinpot dictator with an active nuclear program, unknown military capabilities, and napoleon complex- and his son who might or might not view this all as a game and a chance to prove how big his dick is
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for admitting that he fired unprovoked.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> and this matters ???
> Are we picking sides or something?
Click to expand...


Didn't the U.S. pick sides, like, 50 years ago?


----------



## Valerie

*An Act of Extortion
North Korea believes it will be rewarded for its violent assaults.*

_North Korea's unprovoked attack yesterday on a South Korean island is an unprecedented assault against the government of President Lee Myung-bak. Even by Pyongyang's debased standards the shelling of civilian houses is particularly heinous. But it is also a sign that outside pressure is having the salutary effect of aggravating the North's internal economic and political crises.

The North's attack is part of a larger pattern. In March it torpedoed a South Korean gunboat, killing 46. Earlier this month it invited foreign experts to inspect construction of a new nuclear reactor and a uranium enrichment facility. The North is accelerating its sale of WMD know-how to other rogue regimes; a report now before the U.N. Security Council names Syria, Iran and Burma as preferred customers. It may be preparing for a third nuclear test, and last month it unveiled a new missile with a range of 2,500 miles. _
Review & Outlook: An Act of Extortion - WSJ.com


----------



## dilloduck

JBeukema said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Valerie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for admitting that he fired unprovoked.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and this matters ???
> Are we picking sides or something?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Didn't the U.S. pick sides, like, 50 years ago?
Click to expand...



We were bombing Viet Nam less than that. We can do as we please


----------



## JBeukema

Since when does America condemn unprovoked attacks?


----------



## Valerie

dilloduck said:


> Valerie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> That involved firing into disputed territory and which they were told to cease
> 
> What did they think would happen? We're dealing with a batshit insane tinpot dictator with an active nuclear program, unknown military capabilities, and napoleon complex- and his son who might or might not view this all as a game and a chance to prove how big his dick is
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for admitting that he fired unprovoked.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> and this matters ???
> Are we picking sides or something?
Click to expand...




Of course it matters!  





*President Obama described North Korea's attack Tuesday against a small South Korean island as a "provocative" show of force...*
North Korean Attack Comes Amid Regime Succession, as Obama Calls Act &#39;Provocative&#39; - FoxNews.com


----------



## dilloduck

Valerie said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Valerie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for admitting that he fired unprovoked.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and this matters ???
> Are we picking sides or something?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course it matters!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *President Obama described North Korea's attack Tuesday against a small South Korean island as a "provocative" show of force...*
> North Korean Attack Comes Amid Regime Succession, as Obama Calls Act 'Provocative' - FoxNews.com
Click to expand...


cuz we want to be winners this time ?


----------



## georgephillip

Valerie said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Valerie said:
> 
> 
> 
> North Korea's dangerous delusions - CNN.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Try reading past the emotion-laden headlines and finishing the articles.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> North Korea fired unprovoked.
Click to expand...

North and South Korea have been provoking one another since at least 1953.

Here's an explanation for why that you're not likely to get from our corporate press:

"(SK President) Lee's 'Vision 3000' reunification policy - an assisted suicide program for the North Korean regime predicated upon it opening up its economy to foreign aid and investment while delaying integration until North Korean per capita incomes had roughly tripled to US$3,000 - has started to generate some investment bank heat.

"South Korea's latest Vision 3000 video-conference pitch was hosted by* Goldman Sachs*.

"A high tech trends website, h+, breathlessly spun the latest reunification scenario: it will pay for itself! With "change left over!" 

"*Just like Iraq!*

"More arithmetic for you:

"The Rand Corporation estimates the cost of Korean reunification at $50 billion, Credit Suisse insists $1.5 trillion is the expense, and Stanford fellow Peter M. Beck posits an alarmist $2-$5 trillion.     

"Question: Who's got that kind of cash?

    Answer: North Korean mines. 360 minerals are sequestered in the Hermit Kingdom's caves, many trapped by flooding and NK's [North Korea's] appalling infrastructure. 

"*Billions of tons of coal, iron, zinc, magnesite, nickel, uranium, tungsten, phosphate, graphite, gold, silver, mercury, sulfur, limestone, copper, manganese, molybdenum... worth an estimated $2-$6 trillion (Goldman Sach's figure is $2.5 trillion).* 

"Reunification could be entirely paid for by these mines, perhaps with change left over."

Peter Lee...


----------



## Valerie

georgephillip said:


> Valerie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> Try reading past the emotion-laden headlines and finishing the articles.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> North Korea fired unprovoked.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> North and South Korea have been provoking one another since at least 1953.
> 
> Here's an explanation for why that you're not likely to get from our corporate press:
> 
> "(SK President) Lee's 'Vision 3000' reunification policy - an assisted suicide program for the North Korean regime predicated upon it opening up its economy to foreign aid and investment while delaying integration until North Korean per capita incomes had roughly tripled to US$3,000 - has started to generate some investment bank heat.
> 
> "South Korea's latest Vision 3000 video-conference pitch was hosted by* Goldman Sachs*.
> 
> "A high tech trends website, h+, breathlessly spun the latest reunification scenario: it will pay for itself! With "change left over!"
> 
> "*Just like Iraq!*
> 
> "More arithmetic for you:
> 
> "The Rand Corporation estimates the cost of Korean reunification at $50 billion, Credit Suisse insists $1.5 trillion is the expense, and Stanford fellow Peter M. Beck posits an alarmist $2-$5 trillion.
> 
> "Question: Who's got that kind of cash?
> 
> Answer: North Korean mines. 360 minerals are sequestered in the Hermit Kingdom's caves, many trapped by flooding and NK's [North Korea's] appalling infrastructure.
> 
> "*Billions of tons of coal, iron, zinc, magnesite, nickel, uranium, tungsten, phosphate, graphite, gold, silver, mercury, sulfur, limestone, copper, manganese, molybdenum... worth an estimated $2-$6 trillion (Goldman Sach's figure is $2.5 trillion).*
> 
> "Reunification could be entirely paid for by these mines, perhaps with change left over."
> 
> Peter Lee...
Click to expand...






> Hong Kong, China (CNN)  The conflict may be between the two Koreas, but this latest clash between the North and South is a major cause of concern across the world, shaking markets in the U.S. and elsewhere.
> 
> North and South Korea artillery exchanged fire for an hour on Tuesday. The attack on Yeonpyeong Island was *the first direct artillery attack on South Korea since the 1953 cessation of hostilities.*
> 
> Business 360: Get to grips with the issues affecting world business Blog Archive - Korean shots echo across global markets  - CNN.com Blogs




No surprise North Korea wants to pretend they are victims...


----------



## georgephillip

North Koreans don't need to pretend when it comes to being victims.

Since the Korean War when US/UN airpower killed one out of every three Koreans living above the 38th Parallel and literally bombed the population back to the stone age, North Koreans have experienced misery most Americans can't imagine.

And their future isn't looking much better:

"It appears that (SK President) Lee would prefer to treat northern Korea as the *low-wage, resource-rich hinterland that powers the West-oriented-export economy of a united and pro-US Korea - rather than China's Shandong*. 

"China would also prefer an independent or at least autonomous successor regime with an Asian-authoritative tinge to arise in Pyongyang under Beijing's tutelage, one that would not look to Seoul for advantage - or enhance South Korea's military heft and diplomatic pretensions in the region."

[URL="http://www.counterpunch.org/lee06042010.html"]Peter Lee...[/URL] 

Talk about a rock and a hard place...


----------



## JW Frogen

georgephillip said:


> While I'm not disputing any of your points, I would like to point out there are certainly details we don't get from consuming "headlines in a vacuum:"]



The problem is not confined to this one incident, North Korea has a decades long track record of violating international law, destabilizing the region, mass killing it's own people and provoking confrontation with the South, even when both the US and South Korea appease them.

This is an irrational regime that should have been put down long ago, so irrational the dead founder is still President, making this sick cult of the killer Kims the world's only necocracy.

This event is just their recent provocation, along with attacking a South Korean ship and their open announcement they have violated their signings concerning nuclear enrichment, again.

China must be pressured to modify or remove this regime.

That the terror of the Kims is allowed to exist at all is an affront against the very idea of civilization.


----------



## Synthaholic

My first thoughts are with everyone at Camp Casey, and surrounding.  They are our most forward troops.  They will have to deal with any incursion or invasion from the North.  Who knows if those DPRK fuckers have built more tunnels.  Smart money says they have.


----------



## Synthaholic

Moon said:


> north Korea will soon collapse under the weight of its own criminal and incompetent regime, and the south will have to pick up the pieces of whatever's left. * I only hope the thugs running the abomination known as the People's Republic of Korea have the minimum amount of class required to go out alone, and not try to take any innocents with them.*  The sooner they go, the better for the civilized world.



Fat chance.  Did you see the latest photo of Lil' Kim?












I think he's dying soon and wants to go out with a bang.


----------



## loosecannon

The US was involved in provocative military exercises targeting an island just a few miles off the NK coast. NK responded in kind. The Island's sovereignty is in question. We and SK initiated this volley. Probably in response to the recent disclosure about NK's advanced enrichment capacity. 

Talk ran the globe yesterday about the US redeploying nukes to SK, something China surely won't tolerate. 

Why is the US trying to start a global conflict in China's backyard?


----------



## R.C. Christian

The U.S. won't do anything.


----------



## georgephillip

loosecannon said:


> The US was involved in provocative military exercises targeting an island just a few miles off the NK coast. NK responded in kind. The Island's sovereignty is in question. We and SK initiated this volley. Probably in response to the recent disclosure about NK's advanced enrichment capacity.
> 
> Talk ran the globe yesterday about the US redeploying nukes to SK, something China surely won't tolerate.
> 
> Why is the US trying to start a global conflict in China's backyard?


Here are some possible answers to your question...

"Even though the U.S. military budget is almost ten times that of China's (with a population more than four times as large) and Washington plans a record $708 billion defense budget for next year compared to Russia spending less than $40 billion last year for the same, *China and Russia are portrayed as threats to the U.S. and its allies.*

"China has no troops outside its borders; Russia has a small handful in its former territories in Abkhazia, Armenia, South Ossetia and Transdniester. 

"*The U.S. has hundreds of thousands of troops stationed in six continents.*

"While Gates was in charge of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and responsible for almost half of international military spending he was offended that the world's most populous nation might desire to 'deny others countries the ability to threaten it.'

"On December 23 of last year Raytheon Company announced that it had received a $1.1 billion contract with Taiwan for the purchase of 200 Patriot anti-ballistic missiles. In early January the U.S. Defense Department cleared the transaction 'despite opposition from rival China, where a military official proposed sanctioning U.S. firms that sell arms to the island.'" [1]

Politics is still the shadow business casts on society, and selling arms is the biggest business around.

US - China Military Tensions Grow


----------



## 007

It doesn't matter who started it or why. With that little lop eared buffoon that's still wet behind the ears that we have in the White House, we're fucked if it gets out of hand.


----------



## georgephillip

JW Frogen said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> While I'm not disputing any of your points, I would like to point out there are certainly details we don't get from consuming "headlines in a vacuum:"]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is not confined to this one incident, North Korea has a decades long track record of violating international law, destabilizing the region, mass killing it's own people and provoking confrontation with the South, even when both the US and South Korea appease them.
> 
> This is an irrational regime that should have been put down long ago, so irrational the dead founder is still President, making this sick cult of the killer Kims the world's only necocracy.
> 
> This event is just their recent provocation, along with attacking a South Korean ship and their open announcement they have violated their signings concerning nuclear enrichment, again.
> 
> China must be pressured to modify or remove this regime.
> 
> That the terror of the Kims is allowed to exist at all is an affront against the very idea of civilization.
Click to expand...

China, the US and South Korea appear to be at odds over what happens after the "necrocracy" is put down; however some form of reunification of the Korean peninsula seems to be desired:

"What matters to South Korea today is, by this analysis, making it possible for post-Kim Jong-il's North Korea to pass into some form of *pro-Western international receivership* that guides its steps toward liberal democracy and eventual integration into the South Korean economic and political system on the most advantageous terms to Seoul.

"Reportedly, China is concerned that reunification managed by Seoul and the West will send North Korea, its large population, *its rich resources*, its loyalties - and its soldiers - into the arms of the South.

"In the unlikely event that the North Korean army was absorbed en masse into South Korea's armed forces, a reunited Korea would have 10 million soldiers under arms - more than China..." 

Peter Lee:


----------



## High_Gravity

JW Frogen said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> While I'm not disputing any of your points, I would like to point out there are certainly details we don't get from consuming "headlines in a vacuum:"]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is not confined to this one incident, North Korea has a decades long track record of violating international law, destabilizing the region, mass killing it's own people and provoking confrontation with the South, even when both the US and South Korea appease them.
> 
> This is an irrational regime that should have been put down long ago, so irrational the dead founder is still President, making this sick cult of the killer Kims the world's only necocracy.
> 
> This event is just their recent provocation, along with attacking a South Korean ship and their open announcement they have violated their signings concerning nuclear enrichment, again.
> 
> China must be pressured to modify or remove this regime.
> 
> That the terror of the Kims is allowed to exist at all is an affront against the very idea of civilization.
Click to expand...



I agree 100%. China won't remove the regime though because they do not want to care for the hundreds of thousands of refugees that would flow across the border if the regime fell, and China still looks at North Korea as a buffer between them and the 50,000 US Trops on the other side.


----------



## Claudette

Nothing new here. 

NK plays this game evey time they need aide. From what I've been reading their economy sucks and the people are all starving. Gotta love communism. 

They rattle a few sabres. Launch a few missles and golly gee the US and the UN start talking to them again. They are only looking for money. Like that 9 billion Jimmaahh Carter gave away. You know. They were supposed to stop their quest for nuclear arms. We all see how well that worked. 

We should just  put the little troll and his posse on ignore.


----------



## elvis

merged.


----------



## dilloduck

Claudette said:


> Nothing new here.
> 
> NK plays this game evey time they need aide. From what I've been reading their economy sucks and the people are all starving. Gotta love communism.
> 
> They rattle a few sabres. Launch a few missles and golly gee the US and the UN start talking to them again. They are only looking for money. Like that 9 billion Jimmaahh Carter gave away. You know. They were supposed to stop their quest for nuclear arms. We all see how well that worked.
> 
> We should just  put the little troll and his posse on ignore.



How about taking our troops home too. China will never tolerate NK attacking the South en masse.


----------



## rightwinger

dilloduck said:


> Claudette said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing new here.
> 
> NK plays this game evey time they need aide. From what I've been reading their economy sucks and the people are all starving. Gotta love communism.
> 
> They rattle a few sabres. Launch a few missles and golly gee the US and the UN start talking to them again. They are only looking for money. Like that 9 billion Jimmaahh Carter gave away. You know. They were supposed to stop their quest for nuclear arms. We all see how well that worked.
> 
> We should just  put the little troll and his posse on ignore.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How about taking our troops home too. China will never tolerate NK attacking the South en masse.
Click to expand...


China has traded communist ideology for the quest for the mighty dollar. They have seen the massive improvement in their standard of living because of participating in the worldwide market.
While they will tollerate N Korea engaging in its brattish behavior, supporting N Korea in a live engagement would upset their access to global markets


----------



## dilloduck

rightwinger said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Claudette said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing new here.
> 
> NK plays this game evey time they need aide. From what I've been reading their economy sucks and the people are all starving. Gotta love communism.
> 
> They rattle a few sabres. Launch a few missles and golly gee the US and the UN start talking to them again. They are only looking for money. Like that 9 billion Jimmaahh Carter gave away. You know. They were supposed to stop their quest for nuclear arms. We all see how well that worked.
> 
> We should just  put the little troll and his posse on ignore.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How about taking our troops home too. China will never tolerate NK attacking the South en masse.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> China has traded communist ideology for the quest for the mighty dollar. They have seen the massive improvement in their standard of living because of participating in the worldwide market.
> While they will tollerate N Korea engaging in its brattish behavior, supporting N Korea in a live engagement would upset their access to global markets
Click to expand...


I'm pretty sure I just said that.


----------



## Samson

WillowTree said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There's nothing for us or him to do.
> 
> Unless NK invades SK we have to sit and hope for the best.  Even the SK Pres said to use restaint.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is easy for Americans to puff up their chests and scream Invade!  Bomb the shit out of them!
> 
> But it is the South Koreans who will do the fighting and dying. They have dealt with these provocations from the north for decades and they know what the appropriate response should be.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then why pray tell are we even over there?
Click to expand...


Good Question.

My guess is to help justify a bloated military budget?


----------



## dilloduck

Samson said:


> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is easy for Americans to puff up their chests and scream Invade!  Bomb the shit out of them!
> 
> But it is the South Koreans who will do the fighting and dying. They have dealt with these provocations from the north for decades and they know what the appropriate response should be.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then why pray tell are we even over there?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Good Question.
> 
> My guess is to help justify a bloated military budget?
Click to expand...


Cannon fodder. It gives us the moral right to be indignant when they are blown to bits.


----------



## Samson

dilloduck said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then why pray tell are we even over there?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good Question.
> 
> My guess is to help justify a bloated military budget?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Cannon fodder. It gives us the moral right to be indignant when they are blown to bits.
Click to expand...


Couldn't we feel indignant if only a tenth of them were blown to bits? Or, if they were Kuwaitis? Or Worse: Israelis?


----------



## dilloduck

Samson said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good Question.
> 
> My guess is to help justify a bloated military budget?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cannon fodder. It gives us the moral right to be indignant when they are blown to bits.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Couldn't we feel indignant if only a tenth of them were blown to bits? Or, if they were Kuwaitis? Or Worse: Israelis?
Click to expand...


The chances of them getting hit are greater if we have a bunch of them there. I'm sure our indignation strikes fear in the hearts of all our enemies these days.


----------



## Samson

dilloduck said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> Cannon fodder. It gives us the moral right to be indignant when they are blown to bits.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Couldn't we feel indignant if only a tenth of them were blown to bits? Or, if they were Kuwaitis? Or Worse: Israelis?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The chances of them getting hit are greater if we have a bunch of them there. I'm sure our indignation strikes fear in the hearts of all our enemies these days.
Click to expand...


Perhaps we should have Archduke Hillary drive along the DMZ in an open Dussenberg Touring Sedan.


----------



## elvis

Samson said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Couldn't we feel indignant if only a tenth of them were blown to bits? Or, if they were Kuwaitis? Or Worse: Israelis?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The chances of them getting hit are greater if we have a bunch of them there. I'm sure our indignation strikes fear in the hearts of all our enemies these days.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Perhaps we should have Archduke Hillary drive along the DMZ in an open Dussenberg Touring Sedan.
Click to expand...


who would play the role of the Archduke's wife?


----------



## Samson

elvis said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> 
> The chances of them getting hit are greater if we have a bunch of them there. I'm sure our indignation strikes fear in the hearts of all our enemies these days.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps we should have Archduke Hillary drive along the DMZ in an open Dussenberg Touring Sedan.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> who would play the role of the Archduke's wife?
Click to expand...



I bet we could offer that as a prize in a catfight between Rosie O'Donnel and Rachel Maddow.


----------



## dilloduck

Samson said:


> elvis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps we should have Archduke Hillary drive along the DMZ in an open Dussenberg Touring Sedan.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> who would play the role of the Archduke's wife?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I bet we could offer that as a prize in a catfight between Rosie O'Donnel and Rachel Maddow.
Click to expand...


Dibs on being an anarchist---I'ts been my lifelong dream.


----------



## Samson

dilloduck said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> elvis said:
> 
> 
> 
> who would play the role of the Archduke's wife?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I bet we could offer that as a prize in a catfight between Rosie O'Donnel and Rachel Maddow.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Dibs on being an anarchist---I'ts been my lifelong dream.
Click to expand...


You'll need to wear a North Korean uniform.

Can you stitch together a couple of potato sacks?


----------



## georgephillip

High_Gravity said:


> JW Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> While I'm not disputing any of your points, I would like to point out there are certainly details we don't get from consuming "headlines in a vacuum:"]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is not confined to this one incident, North Korea has a decades long track record of violating international law, destabilizing the region, mass killing it's own people and provoking confrontation with the South, even when both the US and South Korea appease them.
> 
> This is an irrational regime that should have been put down long ago, so irrational the dead founder is still President, making this sick cult of the killer Kims the world's only necocracy.
> 
> This event is just their recent provocation, along with attacking a South Korean ship and their open announcement they have violated their signings concerning nuclear enrichment, again.
> 
> China must be pressured to modify or remove this regime.
> 
> That the terror of the Kims is allowed to exist at all is an affront against the very idea of civilization.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I agree 100%. China won't remove the regime though because they do not want to care for the hundreds of thousands of refugees that would flow across the border if the regime fell, and China still looks at North Korea as a buffer between them and the 50,000 US Trops on the other side.
Click to expand...

How would you respond if Obama removed ALL US troops from South Korea?

Specifically, do you think it would stabilize or destabilize the current situation?


----------



## Samson

georgephillip said:


> How would you respond if Obama removed ALL US troops from South Korea?
> 
> Specifically, do you think it would stabilize or destabilize the current situation?



I'm in Denver.

Frankly, I doubt I'll notice either way.


----------



## georgephillip

How would you feel if you were in Tokyo?


----------



## High_Gravity

georgephillip said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JW Frogen said:
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is not confined to this one incident, North Korea has a decades long track record of violating international law, destabilizing the region, mass killing it's own people and provoking confrontation with the South, even when both the US and South Korea appease them.
> 
> This is an irrational regime that should have been put down long ago, so irrational the dead founder is still President, making this sick cult of the killer Kims the world's only necocracy.
> 
> This event is just their recent provocation, along with attacking a South Korean ship and their open announcement they have violated their signings concerning nuclear enrichment, again.
> 
> China must be pressured to modify or remove this regime.
> 
> That the terror of the Kims is allowed to exist at all is an affront against the very idea of civilization.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree 100%. China won't remove the regime though because they do not want to care for the hundreds of thousands of refugees that would flow across the border if the regime fell, and China still looks at North Korea as a buffer between them and the 50,000 US Trops on the other side.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How would you respond if Obama removed ALL US troops from South Korea?
> 
> Specifically, do you think it would stabilize or destabilize the current situation?
Click to expand...


Well if all the US Troops leave North Korea will invade the South, the only reason they haven't done it is already is because of the US Presence there.


----------



## Jeremy

georgephillip said:


> How would you feel if you were in Tokyo?



tall


----------



## Foxfyre

Depends.  I think nobody really wants war anywhere.  Nobody is hoping for war. War is maybe the most stupid activity that humankind has ever devised.

But those at risk from a North Korean crazy gone berserk, and that would include Japan, might hope there is sufficient reason to really smash North Korea and take out their nuke facilities.  Who do you think would go to their defense?  I don't think it would be China or Russia.


----------



## georgephillip

It's my understanding that North Korea has thousands of artillery pieces well protected from counterattack and capable of turning Seoul (and its 10,000,000 humans) into an inferno within hours, if not minutes.

I think NK is capable of accomplishing this without any back-up; although, I've absolutely no clue how China would react to refugees, etc., if this were to actually happen.

There are $billions worth of minerals locked away in the Hermit Kingdom, so possibly Russian plutocrats would go along with whatever US elites decide...???


----------



## High_Gravity

georgephillip said:


> It's my understanding that North Korea has thousands of artillery pieces well protected from counterattack and capable of turning Seoul (and its 10,000,000 humans) into an inferno within hours, if not minutes.
> 
> I think NK is capable of accomplishing this without any back-up; although, I've absolutely no clue how China would react to refugees, etc., if this were to actually happen.
> 
> There are $billions worth of minerals locked away in the Hermit Kingdom, so possibly Russian plutocrats would go along with whatever US elites decide...???



The thing is North Korea knows that if they go into a full scale war against the US/South Korea their regime is going to burn to the ground, they may destroy Seoul but you can bet that the US will crush Pyongyang as well. North Korea is just doing this for attention and trying to get some more aid and money, thats all.


----------



## Ozmar

High_Gravity said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's my understanding that North Korea has thousands of artillery pieces well protected from counterattack and capable of turning Seoul (and its 10,000,000 humans) into an inferno within hours, if not minutes.
> 
> I think NK is capable of accomplishing this without any back-up; although, I've absolutely no clue how China would react to refugees, etc., if this were to actually happen.
> 
> There are $billions worth of minerals locked away in the Hermit Kingdom, so possibly Russian plutocrats would go along with whatever US elites decide...???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The thing is North Korea knows that if they go into a full scale war against the US/South Korea their regime is going to burn to the ground, they may destroy Seoul but you can bet that the US will crush Pyongyang as well. North Korea is just doing this for attention and trying to get some more aid and money, thats all.
Click to expand...


That's possibly the most intelligent input I've seen from you thus far.


----------



## High_Gravity

Ozmar said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's my understanding that North Korea has thousands of artillery pieces well protected from counterattack and capable of turning Seoul (and its 10,000,000 humans) into an inferno within hours, if not minutes.
> 
> I think NK is capable of accomplishing this without any back-up; although, I've absolutely no clue how China would react to refugees, etc., if this were to actually happen.
> 
> There are $billions worth of minerals locked away in the Hermit Kingdom, so possibly Russian plutocrats would go along with whatever US elites decide...???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The thing is North Korea knows that if they go into a full scale war against the US/South Korea their regime is going to burn to the ground, they may destroy Seoul but you can bet that the US will crush Pyongyang as well. North Korea is just doing this for attention and trying to get some more aid and money, thats all.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's possibly the most intelligent input I've seen from you thus far.
Click to expand...


I only post facts.


----------



## JBeukema

drunkard's piss is an idiot


----------



## High_Gravity

JBeukema said:


> drunkard's piss is an idiot



The only idiot I see here is you bitch.


----------



## Jos

> CO-HOST: How would you handle a situation like the one that just developed in North Korea? [...]
> 
> PALIN: But obviously, weve got to stand with our *North Korean allies*. Were bound to by treaty 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIB6af2kPPc&feature=player_embedded#!


----------



## Ozmar

High_Gravity said:


> Ozmar said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> The thing is North Korea knows that if they go into a full scale war against the US/South Korea their regime is going to burn to the ground, they may destroy Seoul but you can bet that the US will crush Pyongyang as well. North Korea is just doing this for attention and trying to get some more aid and money, thats all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's possibly the most intelligent input I've seen from you thus far.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I only post facts.
Click to expand...




JBeukema said:


> drunkard's piss is an idiot





High_Gravity said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> drunkard's piss is an idiot
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The only idiot I see here is you bitch.
Click to expand...


----------



## JBeukema

High_Gravity said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> drunkard's piss is an idiot
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The only idiot I see here is you bitch.
Click to expand...



Sit down and guzzle your piss


----------



## High_Gravity

JBeukema said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> drunkard's piss is an idiot
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The only idiot I see here is you bitch.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Sit down and guzzle your piss
Click to expand...


Delete your account and remove the cocks from your mouth and asshole.


----------



## JBeukema

Anyone who names himself Urine and can't keep track of who's posted what should just keep his mouth shut and merely be thought a fool.


----------



## Ozmar

Drunkard's piss?


----------



## High_Gravity

JBeukema said:


> Anyone who names himself Urine and can't keep track of who's posted what should just keep his mouth shut and merely be thought a fool.



Funny I'm not saying anything I am typing you stupid bitch.


----------



## JBeukema

Ozmar said:


> Drunkard's piss?


High Gravity: the dregs from the real beer, to which cheap alcohol is further added. Marketed primarily to poor blacks and Mexicans.


----------



## Foxfyre

Well this WAS an interesting discussion.  The operative word here being WAS.  Oh well.


----------



## Foxfyre

Do you guys have any idea how boring it is to see page after page of school yard silly personal insults?   Can't you take it to the flame zone or someplace and not destroy a thread with this stuff?


----------



## Foxfyre

It takes two or more to have this kind of exchange.  But it's okay.  I'll just unsubscribe and find something more interesting.  Ya'll have a great day.


----------



## Ozmar

So how about that North Korea?


----------



## JBeukema

Ozmar said:


> So how about that North Korea?



Personally, I'm hoping East Elbonia nukes them to hell


----------



## Ozmar

JBeukema said:


> Ozmar said:
> 
> 
> 
> So how about that North Korea?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, I'm hoping East Elbonia nukes them to hell
Click to expand...


East Elbonia?


----------



## JBeukema

Ozmar said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ozmar said:
> 
> 
> 
> So how about that North Korea?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, I'm hoping East Elbonia nukes them to hell
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> East Elbonia?
Click to expand...

Elbonia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Samson

georgephillip said:


> How would you feel if you were in Tokyo?




Lucky.


There are some really hot asian chicks in Tokyo.


----------



## Valerie

> *The United States said Wednesday North Korea's lethal artillery strike on a South Korean island was premeditated and a violation of the 1953 Korean War armistice. * But U.S. officials do not believe Pyongyang is preparing for an extended military campaign.
> 
> Officials here are not minimizing the seriousness of the North Korean artillery barrage, which they call a serious provocation and a deliberate violation of the Korean armistice.
> 
> But they say they are not observing preparations for a broader conflict by North Korea, and say they are looking to China to play a "pivotal" role in restraining its neighbor.
> 
> State Department Spokesman P.J. Crowley told reporters the United States is engaged in wide-ranging diplomacy with China and others in the aftermath of the artillery clash, and intends to raise the matter directly with North Korea in the armistice framework.
> 
> The spokesman rejected North Korea's claim it acted in self defense after South Korean shelling in a military exercise.  He said North Korea attacked the South Korean island hours after the routine exercise ended, in an obviously premeditated act, but that there has been no sign of a broader aggressive move by the North.


VOA | US Calls North Korean Artillery Strike Armistice Violation | News | English


----------



## Valerie

> WASHINGTON  President Obama and South Koreas president agreed Tuesday night to hold joint military exercises as a first response to North Koreas deadly shelling of a South Korean military installation, as both countries struggled for the second time this year to keep a North Korean provocation from escalating into war.
> 
> The exercise will include sending the aircraft carrier George Washington and a number of accompanying ships into the region, both to deter further attacks by the North and to signal to China that unless it reins in its unruly ally it will see an even larger American presence in the vicinity.
> 
> The decision came after Mr. Obama attended the end of an emergency session in the White House Situation Room and then emerged to call President Lee Myung-bak of South Korea to express American solidarity and talk about a coordinated response.
> 
> But as a former national security official who dealt frequently with North Korea in the Bush administration, Victor Cha, said just a few hours before the attack began, North Korea is the land of lousy options.


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/24/world/asia/24nkorea.html?_r=1&ref=asia


----------



## Samson

Valerie said:


> WASHINGTON  President Obama and South Koreas president agreed Tuesday night to hold joint military exercises as a first response to North Koreas deadly shelling of a South Korean military installation, as both countries struggled for the second time this year to keep a North Korean provocation from escalating into war.
> 
> The exercise will include sending the aircraft carrier George Washington and a number of accompanying ships into the region, both to deter further attacks by the North and to signal to China that unless it reins in its unruly ally it will see an even larger American presence in the vicinity.
Click to expand...


I wonder how many $$$billion$$$ this is gonna cost.


----------



## georgephillip

Smedley Darlington Butler would know the answer to that question.

Today when retired Marine Corps generals speak out on the War Racket they're more likely to reveal how much of their (unearned) income derives from defense contractors and "think tanks" serving war profits.

A few years ago, Anthony Zinni was asked if he had ever considered running for political office. The first words from the recently retired Marine general's mouth revealed he would take a 90% pay cut if elected to public office.

I don't think Smedley ever faced that conundrum.

War is a Racket


----------



## daveman

georgephillip said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WillowTree said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then why pray tell are we even over there?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have they been invaded in the last 50 years?
> 
> Are you saying the US Army is not doing any good unless they actually go to war?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why did the US Army invade and occupy South Korea after World War II ended, and the Japanese were defeated?
> 
> How many North Koreans have died since then from US bombs?
Click to expand...

Goodness gracious.  If there's a wrong side to an issue, you jump on it with both feet.

Asshead.


----------



## georgephillip

daveman said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have they been invaded in the last 50 years?
> 
> Are you saying the US Army is not doing any good unless they actually go to war?
> 
> 
> 
> Why did the US Army invade and occupy South Korea after World War II ended, and the Japanese were defeated?
> 
> How many North Koreans have died since then from US bombs?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Goodness gracious.  If there's a wrong side to an issue, you jump on it with both feet.
> 
> Asshead.
Click to expand...

Where the hell have you been?

Just for your bad ass self, daveman...

North Korea for Dummies

Wait...wait. I know. Leftist source. OK.

How about Wiki?

"At the Potsdam Conference (July&#8211;August 1945), the Allies unilaterally decided to divide Korea&#8212;*without consulting the Koreans*&#8212;in contradiction of the Cairo Conference.[38]:24[46]:24&#8211;5[60]:25[61]

"On 8 September 1945, Lt. Gen. John R. Hodge of the United States arrived in Incheon to accept the Japanese surrender south of the 38th parallel.[46] 

"Appointed as military governor, General Hodge directly controlled South Korea via the United States Army Military Government in Korea (USAMGIK 1945&#8211;48).[62]:63 

"*He established control by restoring to power the key Japanese colonial administrators and their Korean police collaborators*.

"The USAMGIK refused to recognise the provisional government of the short-lived *People's Republic of Korea (PRK)* because he suspected it was communist. 

"*These policies, voiding popular Korean sovereignty, provoked the civil insurrections and guerrilla warfare.*[39] 

"On 3 September 1945, Lieutenant General Yoshio Kozuki, Commander, Japanese Seventeenth Area Army, contacted Hodge, telling him that the Soviets were south of the 38th parallel at Kaesong. Hodge trusted the accuracy of the Japanese Army report."


----------



## daveman

georgephillip said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why did the US Army invade and occupy South Korea after World War II ended, and the Japanese were defeated?
> 
> How many North Koreans have died since then from US bombs?
> 
> 
> 
> Goodness gracious.  If there's a wrong side to an issue, you jump on it with both feet.
> 
> Asshead.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Where the hell have you been?
> 
> Just for your bad ass self, daveman...
> 
> North Korea for Dummies
> 
> Wait...wait. I know. Leftist source. OK.
> 
> How about Wiki?
> 
> "At the Potsdam Conference (JulyAugust 1945), the Allies unilaterally decided to divide Korea*without consulting the Koreans*in contradiction of the Cairo Conference.[38]:24[46]:245[60]:25[61]
> 
> "On 8 September 1945, Lt. Gen. John R. Hodge of the United States arrived in Incheon to accept the Japanese surrender south of the 38th parallel.[46]
> 
> "Appointed as military governor, General Hodge directly controlled South Korea via the United States Army Military Government in Korea (USAMGIK 194548).[62]:63
> 
> "*He established control by restoring to power the key Japanese colonial administrators and their Korean police collaborators*.
> 
> "The USAMGIK refused to recognise the provisional government of the short-lived *People's Republic of Korea (PRK)* because he suspected it was communist.
> 
> "*These policies, voiding popular Korean sovereignty, provoked the civil insurrections and guerrilla warfare.*[39]
> 
> "On 3 September 1945, Lieutenant General Yoshio Kozuki, Commander, Japanese Seventeenth Area Army, contacted Hodge, telling him that the Soviets were south of the 38th parallel at Kaesong. Hodge trusted the accuracy of the Japanese Army report."
Click to expand...

So....NoKo shells SoKo island...and it's AMERICA'S fault.

Moron.

I wish you weren't such a coward.  Then maybe you'd leave the country you hate so much.


----------



## georgephillip

daveman said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Goodness gracious.  If there's a wrong side to an issue, you jump on it with both feet.
> 
> Asshead.
> 
> 
> 
> Where the hell have you been?
> 
> Just for your bad ass self, daveman...
> 
> North Korea for Dummies
> 
> Wait...wait. I know. Leftist source. OK.
> 
> How about Wiki?
> 
> "At the Potsdam Conference (JulyAugust 1945), the Allies unilaterally decided to divide Korea*without consulting the Koreans*in contradiction of the Cairo Conference.[38]:24[46]:245[60]:25[61]
> 
> "On 8 September 1945, Lt. Gen. John R. Hodge of the United States arrived in Incheon to accept the Japanese surrender south of the 38th parallel.[46]
> 
> "Appointed as military governor, General Hodge directly controlled South Korea via the United States Army Military Government in Korea (USAMGIK 194548).[62]:63
> 
> "*He established control by restoring to power the key Japanese colonial administrators and their Korean police collaborators*.
> 
> "The USAMGIK refused to recognise the provisional government of the short-lived *People's Republic of Korea (PRK)* because he suspected it was communist.
> 
> "*These policies, voiding popular Korean sovereignty, provoked the civil insurrections and guerrilla warfare.*[39]
> 
> "On 3 September 1945, Lieutenant General Yoshio Kozuki, Commander, Japanese Seventeenth Area Army, contacted Hodge, telling him that the Soviets were south of the 38th parallel at Kaesong. Hodge trusted the accuracy of the Japanese Army report."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So....NoKo shells SoKo island...and it's AMERICA'S fault.
> 
> Moron.
> 
> I wish you weren't such a coward.  Then maybe you'd leave the country you hate so much.
Click to expand...

Who would you feel superior to if I left?

"Leaders of self-governing people's committees opposed to Japanese occupation formed the *'Korean People's Republic'* in Seoul on September 6, 1945. 

"*It had a broad-based leadership ranging from right to left*. 

"When Lieutenant General John R. Hodge, leader of the U.S. occupation of Korea, arrived in Inchon soon thereafter, he ordered Japanese authorities to remain at their posts, refused to acknowledge the the newly-formed republic, and indeed even banned all reference to it. 

*"The U.S. would be in charge of what was seen as a defeated enemy nation.* 

"This attitude produced widespread resentment and resistance in Korea. 

"*(Compare contemporary occupied Iraq.)*

Why is your first instinct to swallow every lie the Rich tell about your country?

It's entirely possible there would be no NoKo or SoKo today if the US and Russia had stayed the hell out of it in 1945.

North Korea for Dummies


----------



## elvis

daveman said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Goodness gracious.  If there's a wrong side to an issue, you jump on it with both feet.
> 
> Asshead.
> 
> 
> 
> Where the hell have you been?
> 
> Just for your bad ass self, daveman...
> 
> North Korea for Dummies
> 
> Wait...wait. I know. Leftist source. OK.
> 
> How about Wiki?
> 
> "At the Potsdam Conference (JulyAugust 1945), the Allies unilaterally decided to divide Korea*without consulting the Koreans*in contradiction of the Cairo Conference.[38]:24[46]:245[60]:25[61]
> 
> "On 8 September 1945, Lt. Gen. John R. Hodge of the United States arrived in Incheon to accept the Japanese surrender south of the 38th parallel.[46]
> 
> "Appointed as military governor, General Hodge directly controlled South Korea via the United States Army Military Government in Korea (USAMGIK 194548).[62]:63
> 
> "*He established control by restoring to power the key Japanese colonial administrators and their Korean police collaborators*.
> 
> "The USAMGIK refused to recognise the provisional government of the short-lived *People's Republic of Korea (PRK)* because he suspected it was communist.
> 
> "*These policies, voiding popular Korean sovereignty, provoked the civil insurrections and guerrilla warfare.*[39]
> 
> "On 3 September 1945, Lieutenant General Yoshio Kozuki, Commander, Japanese Seventeenth Area Army, contacted Hodge, telling him that the Soviets were south of the 38th parallel at Kaesong. Hodge trusted the accuracy of the Japanese Army report."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So....NoKo shells SoKo island...and it's AMERICA'S fault.
> 
> Moron.
> 
> I wish you weren't such a coward.  Then maybe you'd leave the country you hate so much.
Click to expand...


Actually, it's Truman's fault.


----------



## georgephillip

elvis said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where the hell have you been?
> 
> Just for your bad ass self, daveman...
> 
> North Korea for Dummies
> 
> Wait...wait. I know. Leftist source. OK.
> 
> How about Wiki?
> 
> "At the Potsdam Conference (JulyAugust 1945), the Allies unilaterally decided to divide Korea*without consulting the Koreans*in contradiction of the Cairo Conference.[38]:24[46]:245[60]:25[61]
> 
> "On 8 September 1945, Lt. Gen. John R. Hodge of the United States arrived in Incheon to accept the Japanese surrender south of the 38th parallel.[46]
> 
> "Appointed as military governor, General Hodge directly controlled South Korea via the United States Army Military Government in Korea (USAMGIK 194548).[62]:63
> 
> "*He established control by restoring to power the key Japanese colonial administrators and their Korean police collaborators*.
> 
> "The USAMGIK refused to recognise the provisional government of the short-lived *People's Republic of Korea (PRK)* because he suspected it was communist.
> 
> "*These policies, voiding popular Korean sovereignty, provoked the civil insurrections and guerrilla warfare.*[39]
> 
> "On 3 September 1945, Lieutenant General Yoshio Kozuki, Commander, Japanese Seventeenth Area Army, contacted Hodge, telling him that the Soviets were south of the 38th parallel at Kaesong. Hodge trusted the accuracy of the Japanese Army report."
> 
> 
> 
> So....NoKo shells SoKo island...and it's AMERICA'S fault.
> 
> Moron.
> 
> I wish you weren't such a coward.  Then maybe you'd leave the country you hate so much.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Actually, it's Truman's fault.
Click to expand...

You and Gary Leupp agree:

"The Korean peninsula, peopled by one of the world's most homogeneous ethnic groups, and united from the seventh century through 1945, is now divided into two nations due primarily to the actions of the Truman administration and the U.S. military. 

"*This is something upon which South and North Koreans agree*." 

North Korea...


----------



## Ozmar

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43D4TNS3Gsk[/ame]


----------



## Synthaholic

georgephillip said:


> How would you feel if you were in Tokyo?


Tall?


----------



## Synthaholic

Jeremy said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> How would you feel if you were in Tokyo?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tall
Click to expand...

Damn!


----------



## Intense

georgephillip said:


> elvis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> So....NoKo shells SoKo island...and it's AMERICA'S fault.
> 
> Moron.
> 
> I wish you weren't such a coward.  Then maybe you'd leave the country you hate so much.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, it's Truman's fault.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You and Gary Leupp agree:
> 
> "The Korean peninsula, peopled by one of the world's most homogeneous ethnic groups, and united from the seventh century through 1945, is now divided into two nations due primarily to the actions of the Truman administration and the U.S. military.
> 
> "*This is something upon which South and North Koreans agree*."
> 
> North Korea...
Click to expand...


Well, at least we saved half of them.


----------



## Intense

Ozmar said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43D4TNS3Gsk



I swallowed a gold fish once on a dare.


----------



## Toro

This is another shake-down. 

North Korea is running out of money, so they started up their nuclear program again.  But since no one is paying attention, they fired on an island.

It would be laughable if these nutters weren't so crazy.  This is the most incompetent, venal and paranoid regime on earth.  Their biggest earners of foreign currency are selling military secrets and taking a cut from drug traffickers using North Korea as a transport route.  

If the West doesn't pay them, the country could collapse, and the delusional and desperate leadership could start a war with the South.

BTW, as I understand it, the South Koreans are taking this more casually than we are.  It is the most serious event since the Korean War, but they are seeing this more for what it is than us.


----------



## Synthaholic

Toro said:


> This is another shake-down.
> 
> North Korea is running out of money, so they started up their nuclear program again.  But since no one is paying attention, they fired on an island.
> 
> It would be laughable if these nutters weren't so crazy.  This is the most incompetent, venal and paranoid regime on earth.  Their biggest earners of foreign currency are selling military secrets and taking a cut from drug traffickers using North Korea as a transport route.
> 
> If the West doesn't pay them, the country could collapse, and the delusional and desperate leadership could start a war with the South.
> 
> BTW, as I understand it,* the South Koreans are taking this more casually than we are.*  It is the most serious event since the Korean War, but they are seeing this more for what it is than us.



Not too casually . . . 


South Korea&#8217;s Defense Chief Resigns in Wake of Attack
By MARK McDONALD
Published: November 25, 2010

SEOUL, South Korea &#8212; President Lee Myung-bak accepted the resignation of Defense Minister Kim Tae-young on Thursday amid intense criticism over the South&#8217;s response to an artillery attack by North Korea two days earlier and the sinking of a warship in March.​


----------



## Toro

Synthaholic said:


> Toro said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is another shake-down.
> 
> North Korea is running out of money, so they started up their nuclear program again.  But since no one is paying attention, they fired on an island.
> 
> It would be laughable if these nutters weren't so crazy.  This is the most incompetent, venal and paranoid regime on earth.  Their biggest earners of foreign currency are selling military secrets and taking a cut from drug traffickers using North Korea as a transport route.
> 
> If the West doesn't pay them, the country could collapse, and the delusional and desperate leadership could start a war with the South.
> 
> BTW, as I understand it,* the South Koreans are taking this more casually than we are.*  It is the most serious event since the Korean War, but they are seeing this more for what it is than us.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not too casually . . .
> 
> 
> South Koreas Defense Chief Resigns in Wake of Attack
> By MARK McDONALD
> Published: November 25, 2010
> 
> SEOUL, South Korea  President Lee Myung-bak accepted the resignation of Defense Minister Kim Tae-young on Thursday amid intense criticism over the Souths response to an artillery attack by North Korea two days earlier and the sinking of a warship in March.​
Click to expand...


It's not surprising, but the point is that - at least from the Koreans whom I have spoken to about this - they are seeing this for what it is, which is a shakedown of the West.

North Korea is like the slightly retarded high maintenance child unable to feed itself that needs to be the center of attention because its self-esteem is completely wrapped up in itself.


----------



## georgephillip

Speaking of *REUNIFICATION* shakedowns:

"(South Korean President) Lee's "Vision 3000" reunification policy - an assisted suicide program for the North Korean regime predicated upon it opening up its economy to foreign aid and investment while delaying integration until North Korean per capita incomes had roughly tripled to US$3,000 - has started to generate some investment bank heat.

South Korea's latest Vision 3000 video-conference pitch was hosted by *Goldman Sachs*.

A high tech trends website, h+, breathlessly spun the latest reunification scenario: it will pay for itself! With 'change left over!' 

"*Just like Iraq*!

More arithmetic for you:

The Rand Corporation estimates the cost of Korean reunification at $50 billion, Credit Suisse insists $1.5 trillion is the expense, and Stanford fellow Peter M. Beck posits an alarmist $2-$5 trillion.

    Question: Who's got that kind of cash?     

"Answer: North Korean mines. 360 minerals are sequestered in the Hermit Kingdom's caves, many trapped by flooding and NK's [North Korea's] appalling infrastructure. Billions of tons of coal, iron, zinc, magnesite, nickel, uranium, tungsten, phosphate, graphite, gold, silver, mercury, sulfur, limestone, copper, manganese, molybdenum... worth an estimated $2-$6 trillion (Goldman Sach's figure is $2.5 trillion). 

"*Reunification could be entirely paid for by these mines, perhaps with change left over*.

"It appears that Lee would prefer to treat northern Korea as the low-wage, resource-rich hinterland that powers the West-oriented-export economy of a united and pro-US Korea - rather than China's Shandong."

Peter Lee


----------



## Ozmar

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xh_9QhRzJEs[/ame]


----------



## daveman

georgephillip said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where the hell have you been?
> 
> Just for your bad ass self, daveman...
> 
> North Korea for Dummies
> 
> Wait...wait. I know. Leftist source. OK.
> 
> How about Wiki?
> 
> "At the Potsdam Conference (JulyAugust 1945), the Allies unilaterally decided to divide Korea*without consulting the Koreans*in contradiction of the Cairo Conference.[38]:24[46]:245[60]:25[61]
> 
> "On 8 September 1945, Lt. Gen. John R. Hodge of the United States arrived in Incheon to accept the Japanese surrender south of the 38th parallel.[46]
> 
> "Appointed as military governor, General Hodge directly controlled South Korea via the United States Army Military Government in Korea (USAMGIK 194548).[62]:63
> 
> "*He established control by restoring to power the key Japanese colonial administrators and their Korean police collaborators*.
> 
> "The USAMGIK refused to recognise the provisional government of the short-lived *People's Republic of Korea (PRK)* because he suspected it was communist.
> 
> "*These policies, voiding popular Korean sovereignty, provoked the civil insurrections and guerrilla warfare.*[39]
> 
> "On 3 September 1945, Lieutenant General Yoshio Kozuki, Commander, Japanese Seventeenth Area Army, contacted Hodge, telling him that the Soviets were south of the 38th parallel at Kaesong. Hodge trusted the accuracy of the Japanese Army report."
> 
> 
> 
> So....NoKo shells SoKo island...and it's AMERICA'S fault.
> 
> Moron.
> 
> I wish you weren't such a coward.  Then maybe you'd leave the country you hate so much.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Who would you feel superior to if I left?
> 
> "Leaders of self-governing people's committees opposed to Japanese occupation formed the *'Korean People's Republic'* in Seoul on September 6, 1945.
> 
> "*It had a broad-based leadership ranging from right to left*.
> 
> "When Lieutenant General John R. Hodge, leader of the U.S. occupation of Korea, arrived in Inchon soon thereafter, he ordered Japanese authorities to remain at their posts, refused to acknowledge the the newly-formed republic, and indeed even banned all reference to it.
> 
> *"The U.S. would be in charge of what was seen as a defeated enemy nation.*
> 
> "This attitude produced widespread resentment and resistance in Korea.
> 
> "*(Compare contemporary occupied Iraq.)*
> 
> Why is your first instinct to swallow every lie the Rich tell about your country?
> 
> It's entirely possible there would be no NoKo or SoKo today if the US and Russia had stayed the hell out of it in 1945.
> 
> North Korea for Dummies
Click to expand...







Oh, yeah, you're one of those morons who thinks America is worse than any Communist nation.

Say, how about you take an honest look at the conditions of the average North Korean and the average South Korean and tell me who's better off.  Look at this photo, apply a little rational thought to it, and see what it tells you:


----------



## daveman

Toro said:


> North Korea is like the slightly retarded high maintenance child unable to feed itself that needs to be the center of attention because its self-esteem is completely wrapped up in itself.


You're right.  They ARE like Democrats.


----------



## daveman

georgephillip said:


> Speaking of *REUNIFICATION* shakedowns:
> 
> "(South Korean President) Lee's "Vision 3000" reunification policy - an assisted suicide program for the North Korean regime predicated upon it opening up its economy to foreign aid and investment while delaying integration until North Korean per capita incomes had roughly tripled to US$3,000 - has started to generate some investment bank heat.
> 
> South Korea's latest Vision 3000 video-conference pitch was hosted by *Goldman Sachs*.
> 
> A high tech trends website, h+, breathlessly spun the latest reunification scenario: it will pay for itself! With 'change left over!'
> 
> "*Just like Iraq*!
> 
> More arithmetic for you:
> 
> The Rand Corporation estimates the cost of Korean reunification at $50 billion, Credit Suisse insists $1.5 trillion is the expense, and Stanford fellow Peter M. Beck posits an alarmist $2-$5 trillion.
> 
> Question: Who's got that kind of cash?
> 
> "Answer: North Korean mines. 360 minerals are sequestered in the Hermit Kingdom's caves, many trapped by flooding and NK's [North Korea's] appalling infrastructure. Billions of tons of coal, iron, zinc, magnesite, nickel, uranium, tungsten, phosphate, graphite, gold, silver, mercury, sulfur, limestone, copper, manganese, molybdenum... worth an estimated $2-$6 trillion (Goldman Sach's figure is $2.5 trillion).
> 
> "*Reunification could be entirely paid for by these mines, perhaps with change left over*.
> 
> "It appears that Lee would prefer to treat northern Korea as the low-wage, resource-rich hinterland that powers the West-oriented-export economy of a united and pro-US Korea - rather than China's Shandong."
> 
> Peter Lee


Very interesting.  So North Korea has abundant, valuable natural resources --  but their per capita income is only a thousand dollars a month?

And you think this is a successful government?

Fool.


----------



## Cain

Toro said:


> If the West doesn't pay them, the country could collapse, and the delusional and desperate leadership could start a war with the South.



I'm pretty sure, the West needs to be worrying about it's own people before it helps other nations.

U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time


----------



## AquaAthena

xomputer said:


> Report: N. Korea fires on S. Korea, injuring at least 4 - CNN.com
> North Korea on Tuesday fired artillery into the sea near its tense western sea border with South Korea, injuring at least four South Korean soldiers, the Yonhap news agency reported.
> 
> Some of the artillery landed directly on an inhabited island, and South Korea's military returned fire, Yonhap said, citing Col. Lee Bung-woo, spokesman for the South's Joint Chiefs of Staff.
> 
> The firing began about 2:30 p.m. local time. The South Korean army raised its alert condition and braced for any possible fire, the report said.
> 
> Images of plumes of smoke were quickly broadcast on Yonhap television, but it was not immediately clear what the artillery had hit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was a clear provocation!!!
Click to expand...


SNIP:

"The Obama administration has sent the USS George Washington aircraft carrier to the Yellow Sea, between Korea and China, to take part in a previously planned joint exercise with South Korea.

"Beijing has railed against previous joint maneuvers in the Yellow Sea -- a body of water seen by China as part of its sphere of influence -- saying it could escalate tensions. Hard-line nationalists have called for military action if U.S. vessels intrude into Chinese waters.

"The Global Times -- a popular nationalistic tabloid published by the Communist Party's flagship newspaper People's Daily -- said now wasn't the time for war games.

"If sending a U.S. aircraft carrier into the Yellow Sea for military exercises becomes a regular occurrence, the strategic environment of the Yellow Sea will be altered, and Northeast Asia will be rocked by forces even greater than North-South Korean artillery barrages," the paper warned in an editorial

China Premier Urges Restraint Over Korean Tensions - FoxNews.com


----------



## JBeukema

Why, exactly, can't we just send a Tamahawk screaming towards his palace- or wherever he is?


----------



## georgephillip

daveman said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> So....NoKo shells SoKo island...and it's AMERICA'S fault.
> 
> Moron.
> 
> I wish you weren't such a coward.  Then maybe you'd leave the country you hate so much.
> 
> 
> 
> Who would you feel superior to if I left?
> 
> "Leaders of self-governing people's committees opposed to Japanese occupation formed the *'Korean People's Republic'* in Seoul on September 6, 1945.
> 
> "*It had a broad-based leadership ranging from right to left*.
> 
> "When Lieutenant General John R. Hodge, leader of the U.S. occupation of Korea, arrived in Inchon soon thereafter, he ordered Japanese authorities to remain at their posts, refused to acknowledge the the newly-formed republic, and indeed even banned all reference to it.
> 
> *"The U.S. would be in charge of what was seen as a defeated enemy nation.*
> 
> "This attitude produced widespread resentment and resistance in Korea.
> 
> "*(Compare contemporary occupied Iraq.)*
> 
> Why is your first instinct to swallow every lie the Rich tell about your country?
> 
> It's entirely possible there would be no NoKo or SoKo today if the US and Russia had stayed the hell out of it in 1945.
> 
> North Korea for Dummies
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, yeah, you're one of those morons who thinks America is worse than any Communist nation.
> 
> Say, how about you take an honest look at the conditions of the average North Korean and the average South Korean and tell me who's better off.  Look at this photo, apply a little rational thought to it, and see what it tells you:
Click to expand...

Taking an honest look at average conditions in North Korea is easier to envision if you imagine all the points of South Korean light in the photo magically migrating north of the 38th parallel.

That would give an honest observer a reasonable approximation of the saturation bombing campaign conducted by the USAF during its "first war" in Korea.

By US admission we first turned every North Korean city and village into rubble and then came back and turned the rubble into pebbles. Curtis LeMay estimated we killed 20% of all human beings in North Korea.

Today the figure is widely believed to be one out of three North Koreans perished from US bombs. (I'm sure the profit margin on each bomb is only a happy capitalist coincidence, aren't you?)

I don't believe America is worse than any Communist nation; however, when I encounter "patriotism" like yours, I can't help thinking it stems more from an accident of birth than any application of "rational thought."

Or empathy.


----------



## daveman

georgephillip said:


> Taking an honest look at average conditions in North Korea is easier to envision if you imagine all the points of South Korean light in the photo magically migrating north of the 38th parallel.
> 
> That would give an honest observer a reasonable approximation of the saturation bombing campaign conducted by the USAF during its "first war" in Korea.
> 
> By US admission we first turned every North Korean city and village into rubble and then came back and turned the rubble into pebbles. Curtis LeMay estimated we killed 20% of all human beings in North Korea.
> 
> Today the figure is widely believed to be one out of three North Koreans perished from US bombs. (I'm sure the profit margin on each bomb is only a happy capitalist coincidence, aren't you?)
> 
> I don't believe America is worse than any Communist nation; however, when I encounter "patriotism" like yours, I can't help thinking it stems more from an accident of birth than any application of "rational thought."
> 
> Or empathy.


If our intervention was so awful for Koreans, South Korea would be just as dark as North Korea, wouldn't it?

Face it, George:  Communism is an utter failure, and is responsible for the condition of North Korea.  I know that goes against everything you believe.

Tough shit.  It's the truth.


----------



## georgephillip

I have no trouble recognizing or admitting the abject failure of Communism. You seem to have an almost religious conviction that capitalism is any better.

It isn't.

Both systems oppress individual liberty while elevating an elite few to positions of great power and influence, like Lt. General John R. Hodge leader of the US occupation of Korea in 1945.

When Hodge essentially outlawed the Korean People's Republic which had formed in Seoul in September of '45, he was behaving like a good communist. Had Truman and the US military not interfered with Korean politics in 1945, a unified Korea might be even more luminescent than South Korea is today.

It could also be more free and independent than what we see today. We'll never know and that's due entirely to Communist and Capitalist meddling in the affairs of the Korean people.


----------



## daveman

georgephillip said:


> I have no trouble recognizing or admitting the abject failure of Communism. You seem to have an almost religious conviction that capitalism is any better.
> 
> It isn't.
> 
> Both systems oppress individual liberty while elevating an elite few to positions of great power and influence, like Lt. General John R. Hodge leader of the US occupation of Korea in 1945.
> 
> When Hodge essentially outlawed the Korean People's Republic which had formed in Seoul in September of '45, he was behaving like a good communist. Had Truman and the US military not interfered with Korean politics in 1945, a unified Korea might be even more luminescent than South Korea is today.
> 
> It could also be more free and independent than what we see today. We'll never know and that's due entirely to Communist and Capitalist meddling in the affairs of the Korean people.


That's right, George -- EVERYTHING is America's fault.


----------



## DiveCon

daveman said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have no trouble recognizing or admitting the abject failure of Communism. You seem to have an almost religious conviction that capitalism is any better.
> 
> It isn't.
> 
> Both systems oppress individual liberty while elevating an elite few to positions of great power and influence, like Lt. General John R. Hodge leader of the US occupation of Korea in 1945.
> 
> When Hodge essentially outlawed the Korean People's Republic which had formed in Seoul in September of '45, he was behaving like a good communist. Had Truman and the US military not interfered with Korean politics in 1945, a unified Korea might be even more luminescent than South Korea is today.
> 
> It could also be more free and independent than what we see today. We'll never know and that's due entirely to Communist and Capitalist meddling in the affairs of the Korean people.
> 
> 
> 
> That's right, George -- EVERYTHING is America's fault.
Click to expand...

this is the order of fault for everything bad for georgie

#1 Israel
#2 America
## if no actual tie can be made to either #1 or #2, find a way to blame it on the Jews


----------



## daveman

DiveCon said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have no trouble recognizing or admitting the abject failure of Communism. You seem to have an almost religious conviction that capitalism is any better.
> 
> It isn't.
> 
> Both systems oppress individual liberty while elevating an elite few to positions of great power and influence, like Lt. General John R. Hodge leader of the US occupation of Korea in 1945.
> 
> When Hodge essentially outlawed the Korean People's Republic which had formed in Seoul in September of '45, he was behaving like a good communist. Had Truman and the US military not interfered with Korean politics in 1945, a unified Korea might be even more luminescent than South Korea is today.
> 
> It could also be more free and independent than what we see today. We'll never know and that's due entirely to Communist and Capitalist meddling in the affairs of the Korean people.
> 
> 
> 
> That's right, George -- EVERYTHING is America's fault.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> this is the order of fault for everything bad for georgie
> 
> #1 Israel
> #2 America
> ## if no actual tie can be made to either #1 or #2, find a way to blame it on the Jews
Click to expand...

He really is rather a simple little person.


----------



## georgephillip

But not simple enough to believe Ronald Reagan was anything except a corn-fed coward, unwilling to put his life on the line for this country in World War II.

Sounds like your kinda guy.

Slave,


----------



## daveman

georgephillip said:


> But not simple enough to believe Ronald Reagan was anything except a corn-fed coward, unwilling to put his life on the line for this country in World War II.
> 
> Sounds like your kinda guy.
> 
> Slave,


Cowardice?  No.  Nearsightedness. 

If you want to talk about cowardice, let's talk about your less-than-a-hundred-hours military career.  

Chickenshit.


----------



## Ozmar

I always laugh at fools who didn't even finish bootcamp, but jump on the military bandwagon. Fucking pathetic lowlives.


----------



## JBeukema

georgephillip said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who would you feel superior to if I left?
> 
> "Leaders of self-governing people's committees opposed to Japanese occupation formed the *'Korean People's Republic'* in Seoul on September 6, 1945.
> 
> "*It had a broad-based leadership ranging from right to left*.
> 
> "When Lieutenant General John R. Hodge, leader of the U.S. occupation of Korea, arrived in Inchon soon thereafter, he ordered Japanese authorities to remain at their posts, refused to acknowledge the the newly-formed republic, and indeed even banned all reference to it.
> 
> *"The U.S. would be in charge of what was seen as a defeated enemy nation.*
> 
> "This attitude produced widespread resentment and resistance in Korea.
> 
> "*(Compare contemporary occupied Iraq.)*
> 
> Why is your first instinct to swallow every lie the Rich tell about your country?
> 
> It's entirely possible there would be no NoKo or SoKo today if the US and Russia had stayed the hell out of it in 1945.
> 
> North Korea for Dummies
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, yeah, you're one of those morons who thinks America is worse than any Communist nation.
> 
> Say, how about you take an honest look at the conditions of the average North Korean and the average South Korean and tell me who's better off.  Look at this photo, apply a little rational thought to it, and see what it tells you:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Taking an honest look at average conditions in North Korea is easier to envision if you imagine all the points of South Korean light in the photo magically migrating north of the 38th parallel.
> 
> That would give an honest observer a reasonable approximation of the saturation bombing campaign conducted by the USAF during its "first war" in Korea.
> 
> By US admission we first turned every North Korean city and village into rubble and then came back and turned the rubble into pebbles. Curtis LeMay estimated we killed 20% of all human beings in North Korea.
> 
> Today the figure is widely believed to be one out of three North Koreans perished from US bombs. (I'm sure the profit margin on each bomb is only a happy capitalist coincidence, aren't you?)
> 
> .
Click to expand...


Dude, it's been like 60 years. Why do you think they haven't rebuilt or developed?

Hint:it has something to do with batshit insane dictators


----------



## JBeukema

DiveCon said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have no trouble recognizing or admitting the abject failure of Communism. You seem to have an almost religious conviction that capitalism is any better.
> 
> It isn't.
> 
> Both systems oppress individual liberty while elevating an elite few to positions of great power and influence, like Lt. General John R. Hodge leader of the US occupation of Korea in 1945.
> 
> When Hodge essentially outlawed the Korean People's Republic which had formed in Seoul in September of '45, he was behaving like a good communist. Had Truman and the US military not interfered with Korean politics in 1945, a unified Korea might be even more luminescent than South Korea is today.
> 
> It could also be more free and independent than what we see today. We'll never know and that's due entirely to Communist and Capitalist meddling in the affairs of the Korean people.
> 
> 
> 
> That's right, George -- EVERYTHING is America's fault.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> this is the order of fault for everything bad for georgie
> 
> #1 Israel
> #2 America
> ## if no actual tie can be made to either #1 or #2, find a way to blame it on the Jews
Click to expand...



Glenn Beck - Current Events & Politics - Glenn Beck: The Puppet Master


----------



## georgephillip

daveman said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> But not simple enough to believe Ronald Reagan was anything except a corn-fed coward, unwilling to put his life on the line for this country in World War II.
> 
> Sounds like your kinda guy.
> 
> Slave,
> 
> 
> 
> Cowardice?  No.  Nearsightedness.
> 
> If you want to talk about cowardice, let's talk about your less-than-a-hundred-hours military career.
> 
> Chickenshit.
Click to expand...

Tunnel vision.
Keeping his eyes firmly on the money.
The $3000 a week he earned for making war movies.

Fuck you and the Gipper.


----------



## daveman

georgephillip said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> But not simple enough to believe Ronald Reagan was anything except a corn-fed coward, unwilling to put his life on the line for this country in World War II.
> 
> Sounds like your kinda guy.
> 
> Slave,
> 
> 
> 
> Cowardice?  No.  Nearsightedness.
> 
> If you want to talk about cowardice, let's talk about your less-than-a-hundred-hours military career.
> 
> Chickenshit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Tunnel vision.
> Keeping his eyes firmly on the money.
> The $3000 a week he earned for making war movies.
> 
> Fuck you and the Gipper.
Click to expand...

Tough talk from a guy who went home crying to mommy.  

As always, George, you're wrong.  Reagan did what he could given his physical limitations.  And it was far more than what you accomplished in the military.


----------



## Cain

I have a question, what is the thing about military service in question of georgephillip? I am newer here, and I do not understand what the thing about it is? I am going to be heading to BMT at the end of my last year in school, and am curious about the basic training argument?


----------



## georgephillip

Cain said:


> I have a question, what is the thing about military service in question of georgephillip? I am newer here, and I do not understand what the thing about it is? I am going to be heading to BMT at the end of my last year in school, and am curious about the basic training argument?


Cain:

BMT?

Basic Military Training?

I'm not really clear on  today's terminology; however in March of 1966 I enlisted in the USAF and spent ten of the longest days of my life in Texas. At the time I believed the US invasion of South Vietnam was in the best interest of "freedom" and even planned on volunteering to serve there after completing basic training at Lackland AFB.

Like many others I got homesick, but unlike most others I had an abnormal curvature to my spine that might make me eligible for a medical discharge.

It "worked" and while I'm glad I didn't actively support the murders of 2-3 million Vietnamese by the US military, there were also some unintended consequences. For example, 27 years later when I was 45 and my mother died I was still living under her roof.

Had I cut the umbilical in '66 that probably would not have been the case.

Frankly, I think if I could do it all over I would have refused induction and done my time in Federal prison. 

That way I could have cut my ties to home without enabling the killing of innocent human beings.

Not sure if this has answered any of your questions.
I am sure the biggest difference between my time and yours is the communication instrument we're using today.


----------



## georgephillip

JBeukema said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, yeah, you're one of those morons who thinks America is worse than any Communist nation.
> 
> Say, how about you take an honest look at the conditions of the average North Korean and the average South Korean and tell me who's better off.  Look at this photo, apply a little rational thought to it, and see what it tells you:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Taking an honest look at average conditions in North Korea is easier to envision if you imagine all the points of South Korean light in the photo magically migrating north of the 38th parallel.
> 
> That would give an honest observer a reasonable approximation of the saturation bombing campaign conducted by the USAF during its "first war" in Korea.
> 
> By US admission we first turned every North Korean city and village into rubble and then came back and turned the rubble into pebbles. Curtis LeMay estimated we killed 20% of all human beings in North Korea.
> 
> Today the figure is widely believed to be one out of three North Koreans perished from US bombs. (I'm sure the profit margin on each bomb is only a happy capitalist coincidence, aren't you?)
> 
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Dude, it's been like 60 years. Why do you think they haven't rebuilt or developed?
> 
> Hint:it has something to do with batshit insane dictators
Click to expand...

Bat-shit insanity and dictators play big roles; however, I'm not using metaphor when I say US airpower reduced North Korea to something close to stone age existence.

Imagine if some interstellar terrorists "liberate" California by killing one out of every three Americans in 2011?

Imagine they "bomb" every US city and town into rubble and then come back and pound the rubble into pebbles.

Imagine they hang out in Malibu for the next 60 years...

If there's one word we are not paying close enough attention to in this discussion of Korea, I nominate "*reunification*."

My second nominee would be "*profits*" as in the 2 - 6 *trillion* dollars worth of minerals locked away inside North Korea.


----------



## georgephillip

From Antiwar.com:

"Initial reports were unequivocal: those crazy North Koreans had once again broken the longstanding ceasefire and attacked the South, this time at Yeonpyeong Island, shelling civilian quarters, and killing two South Korean marines. 

"A few hours later, however, a more nuanced story came out: it seems the South Koreans were conducting military 'exercises' near the disputed island, which North Korea claims as its territory, and South Korean ships had opened fire, albeit  they claim  not in the direction of the North Korean mainland. 

"The North Koreans responded by taking it up a few notches, as is their wont, and opening fire on Yeonpyeong."

What were these "exercises" attempting to simulate?

"...the military exercises, code-named 'Hoguk,' involving all four branches of the South Korean armed forces and some 70,000 troops, *simulated an attack on North Korea*, and were meant to *provoke the North Koreans*, who responded as might be expected. 

"*US troops were supposed to have participated* in the exercises, but apparently the Americans thought better of it and *pulled back at the last moment*  perhaps because they knew a *provocation* was in the making."

Korean Conundrum

Does anyone know the English translation for "Hoguk?"

What's "provocation" in Korean?


----------



## Jeremy

&#46020;&#48156;


----------



## daveman

georgephillip said:


> Cain said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a question, what is the thing about military service in question of georgephillip? I am newer here, and I do not understand what the thing about it is? I am going to be heading to BMT at the end of my last year in school, and am curious about the basic training argument?
> 
> 
> 
> Cain:
> 
> BMT?
> 
> Basic Military Training?
> 
> I'm not really clear on  today's terminology; however in March of 1966 I enlisted in the USAF and spent ten of the longest days of my life in Texas. At the time I believed the US invasion of South Vietnam was in the best interest of "freedom" and even planned on volunteering to serve there after completing basic training at Lackland AFB.
> 
> Like many others I got homesick, but unlike most others I had an abnormal curvature to my spine that might make me eligible for a medical discharge.
> 
> It "worked" and while I'm glad I didn't actively support the murders of 2-3 million Vietnamese by the US military, there were also some unintended consequences. For example, 27 years later when I was 45 and my mother died I was still living under her roof.
> 
> Had I cut the umbilical in '66 that probably would not have been the case.
> 
> Frankly, I think if I could do it all over I would have refused induction and done my time in Federal prison.
> 
> That way I could have cut my ties to home without enabling the killing of innocent human beings.
> 
> Not sure if this has answered any of your questions.
> I am sure the biggest difference between my time and yours is the communication instrument we're using today.
Click to expand...

Your scoliosis should have been weeded out at the MEPS station.  

Plus, you didn't mention it to me before.


----------



## daveman

georgephillip said:


> Bat-shit insanity and dictators play big roles; however, I'm not using metaphor when I say US airpower reduced North Korea to something close to stone age existence.
> 
> Imagine if some interstellar terrorists "liberate" California by killing one out of every three Americans in 2011?
> 
> Imagine they "bomb" every US city and town into rubble and then come back and pound the rubble into pebbles.
> 
> Imagine they hang out in Malibu for the next 60 years...
> 
> If there's one word we are not paying close enough attention to in this discussion of Korea, I nominate "*reunification*."
> 
> My second nominee would be "*profits*" as in the 2 - 6 *trillion* dollars worth of minerals locked away inside North Korea.


The best chance for North Korea's success is reunification -- under South Korea's control.  

The other way around?  

The ENTIRE Korean peninsula would be dark at night.


----------



## Sallow

georgephillip said:


> From Antiwar.com:
> 
> "Initial reports were unequivocal: those crazy North Koreans had once again broken the longstanding ceasefire and attacked the South, this time at Yeonpyeong Island, shelling civilian quarters, and killing two South Korean marines.
> 
> "A few hours later, however, a more nuanced story came out: it seems the South Koreans were conducting military 'exercises' near the disputed island, which North Korea claims as its territory, and South Korean ships had opened fire, albeit  they claim  not in the direction of the North Korean mainland.
> 
> "The North Koreans responded by taking it up a few notches, as is their wont, and opening fire on Yeonpyeong."
> 
> What were these "exercises" attempting to simulate?
> 
> "...the military exercises, code-named 'Hoguk,' involving all four branches of the South Korean armed forces and some 70,000 troops, *simulated an attack on North Korea*, and were meant to *provoke the North Koreans*, who responded as might be expected.
> 
> "*US troops were supposed to have participated* in the exercises, but apparently the Americans thought better of it and *pulled back at the last moment*  perhaps because they knew a *provocation* was in the making."
> 
> Korean Conundrum
> 
> Does anyone know the English translation for "Hoguk?"
> 
> What's "provocation" in Korean?



That may be the excuse.

But the real deal is blood on the beak of baby Il Jung..the 4 star General.


----------



## georgephillip

daveman said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cain said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a question, what is the thing about military service in question of georgephillip? I am newer here, and I do not understand what the thing about it is? I am going to be heading to BMT at the end of my last year in school, and am curious about the basic training argument?
> 
> 
> 
> Cain:
> 
> BMT?
> 
> Basic Military Training?
> 
> I'm not really clear on  today's terminology; however in March of 1966 I enlisted in the USAF and spent ten of the longest days of my life in Texas. At the time I believed the US invasion of South Vietnam was in the best interest of "freedom" and even planned on volunteering to serve there after completing basic training at Lackland AFB.
> 
> Like many others I got homesick, but unlike most others I had an abnormal curvature to my spine that might make me eligible for a medical discharge.
> 
> It "worked" and while I'm glad I didn't actively support the murders of 2-3 million Vietnamese by the US military, there were also some unintended consequences. For example, 27 years later when I was 45 and my mother died I was still living under her roof.
> 
> Had I cut the umbilical in '66 that probably would not have been the case.
> 
> Frankly, I think if I could do it all over I would have refused induction and done my time in Federal prison.
> 
> That way I could have cut my ties to home without enabling the killing of innocent human beings.
> 
> Not sure if this has answered any of your questions.
> I am sure the biggest difference between my time and yours is the communication instrument we're using today.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Your scoliosis should have been weeded out at the MEPS station.
> 
> Plus, you didn't mention it to me before.
Click to expand...

Not sure about MEPS, daveman.

There was a draft in those days, and the only physical I got was at the induction center in downtown Los Angeles. I believe the scoliosis was found; however, the army would not have exempted me from service at that time.

After my pre-induction physical a friend suggested enlisting in the Air Force on the buddy system, and I went along with that plan.


----------



## georgephillip

daveman said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bat-shit insanity and dictators play big roles; however, I'm not using metaphor when I say US airpower reduced North Korea to something close to stone age existence.
> 
> Imagine if some interstellar terrorists "liberate" California by killing one out of every three Americans in 2011?
> 
> Imagine they "bomb" every US city and town into rubble and then come back and pound the rubble into pebbles.
> 
> Imagine they hang out in Malibu for the next 60 years...
> 
> If there's one word we are not paying close enough attention to in this discussion of Korea, I nominate "*reunification*."
> 
> My second nominee would be "*profits*" as in the 2 - 6 *trillion* dollars worth of minerals locked away inside North Korea.
> 
> 
> 
> The best chance for North Korea's success is reunification -- under South Korea's control.
> 
> The other way around?
> 
> The ENTIRE Korean peninsula would be dark at night.
Click to expand...

There's certainly no shortage of devils lurking in the details of Korean reunification. I don't think the (rich) generals in either country or those in the Pentagon will tolerate either side assuming total control of the reconciliation.

It's hard for me to believe it has been only ten years since the "sunshine policy" of SK's president Kim Dae-jung "was going to succeed in preventing a catastrophic collapse of the Communist regime, a flood of refugees, or even the outbreak of war."

It's probably worth investigating whether the current president of South Korea, Lee Myung Bak's, "first act was to abolish the government department set up to facilitate national unification."

That's the claim made by Antiwar.com


----------



## georgephillip

Sallow said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> From Antiwar.com:
> 
> "Initial reports were unequivocal: those crazy North Koreans had once again broken the longstanding ceasefire and attacked the South, this time at Yeonpyeong Island, shelling civilian quarters, and killing two South Korean marines.
> 
> "A few hours later, however, a more nuanced story came out: it seems the South Koreans were conducting military 'exercises' near the disputed island, which North Korea claims as its territory, and South Korean ships had opened fire, albeit  they claim  not in the direction of the North Korean mainland.
> 
> "The North Koreans responded by taking it up a few notches, as is their wont, and opening fire on Yeonpyeong."
> 
> What were these "exercises" attempting to simulate?
> 
> "...the military exercises, code-named 'Hoguk,' involving all four branches of the South Korean armed forces and some 70,000 troops, *simulated an attack on North Korea*, and were meant to *provoke the North Koreans*, who responded as might be expected.
> 
> "*US troops were supposed to have participated* in the exercises, but apparently the Americans thought better of it and *pulled back at the last moment*  perhaps because they knew a *provocation* was in the making."
> 
> Korean Conundrum
> 
> Does anyone know the English translation for "Hoguk?"
> 
> What's "provocation" in Korean?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That may be the excuse.
> 
> But the real deal is blood on the beak of baby Il Jung..the 4 star General.
Click to expand...

I don't know anything about the power structure in North Korea. Ultimate control usually belongs to high-ranking military officials in states as primitive as that one.

In this country some believe the president occupies the third level of power with (mostly rich) generals and admirals at the Pentagon ruling the second level while (very rich) global bankers ultimately call the shots.

It's probably no accident Goldman Sachs has recently become a big player in South Korean visions of reunification.


----------



## daveman

georgephillip said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> Cain:
> 
> BMT?
> 
> Basic Military Training?
> 
> I'm not really clear on  today's terminology; however in March of 1966 I enlisted in the USAF and spent ten of the longest days of my life in Texas. At the time I believed the US invasion of South Vietnam was in the best interest of "freedom" and even planned on volunteering to serve there after completing basic training at Lackland AFB.
> 
> Like many others I got homesick, but unlike most others I had an abnormal curvature to my spine that might make me eligible for a medical discharge.
> 
> It "worked" and while I'm glad I didn't actively support the murders of 2-3 million Vietnamese by the US military, there were also some unintended consequences. For example, 27 years later when I was 45 and my mother died I was still living under her roof.
> 
> Had I cut the umbilical in '66 that probably would not have been the case.
> 
> Frankly, I think if I could do it all over I would have refused induction and done my time in Federal prison.
> 
> That way I could have cut my ties to home without enabling the killing of innocent human beings.
> 
> Not sure if this has answered any of your questions.
> I am sure the biggest difference between my time and yours is the communication instrument we're using today.
> 
> 
> 
> Your scoliosis should have been weeded out at the MEPS station.
> 
> Plus, you didn't mention it to me before.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not sure about MEPS, daveman.
> 
> There was a draft in those days, and the only physical I got was at the induction center in downtown Los Angeles. I believe the scoliosis was found; however, the army would not have exempted me from service at that time.
> 
> After my pre-induction physical a friend suggested enlisting in the Air Force on the buddy system, and I went along with that plan.
Click to expand...

Military Entrance Processing Station -- what used to be called induction centers.


----------



## Cain

georgephillip said:


> Cain said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a question, what is the thing about military service in question of georgephillip? I am newer here, and I do not understand what the thing about it is? I am going to be heading to BMT at the end of my last year in school, and am curious about the basic training argument?
> 
> 
> 
> Cain:
> 
> BMT?
> 
> Basic Military Training?
> 
> I'm not really clear on  today's terminology; however in March of 1966 I enlisted in the USAF and spent ten of the longest days of my life in Texas. At the time I believed the US invasion of South Vietnam was in the best interest of "freedom" and even planned on volunteering to serve there after completing basic training at Lackland AFB.
> 
> Like many others I got homesick, but unlike most others I had an abnormal curvature to my spine that might make me eligible for a medical discharge.
> 
> It "worked" and while I'm glad I didn't actively support the murders of 2-3 million Vietnamese by the US military, there were also some unintended consequences. For example, 27 years later when I was 45 and my mother died I was still living under her roof.
> 
> Had I cut the umbilical in '66 that probably would not have been the case.
> 
> Frankly, I think if I could do it all over I would have refused induction and done my time in Federal prison.
> 
> That way I could have cut my ties to home without enabling the killing of innocent human beings.
> 
> Not sure if this has answered any of your questions.
> I am sure the biggest difference between my time and yours is the communication instrument we're using today.
Click to expand...


Yes, BMT for the USAF. (I love saying that, reminds me of Good Morning Vietnam scene with all the initials). I signed a 6yr contract with them, and I went through MEPS and passed with flying colors.

How did they not catch your back at MEPS? MY godfather was drafted for Vietnam from college, but they didn't allow him to go cause he was color blind (no joke). I would think a back problem would be on the top lists. My uncle got honorable discharge for injuring his during Desert Storm.

I hated MEPS, it was the longest day of my entire life, but it wasn't all that bad. A bunch of bs about the food though. "Paid for by the US Government" and it was some of the crappiest eggs I've ever seen lol. The eggs where like fish nets with eggs in them.


----------



## daveman

georgephillip said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bat-shit insanity and dictators play big roles; however, I'm not using metaphor when I say US airpower reduced North Korea to something close to stone age existence.
> 
> Imagine if some interstellar terrorists "liberate" California by killing one out of every three Americans in 2011?
> 
> Imagine they "bomb" every US city and town into rubble and then come back and pound the rubble into pebbles.
> 
> Imagine they hang out in Malibu for the next 60 years...
> 
> If there's one word we are not paying close enough attention to in this discussion of Korea, I nominate "*reunification*."
> 
> My second nominee would be "*profits*" as in the 2 - 6 *trillion* dollars worth of minerals locked away inside North Korea.
> 
> 
> 
> The best chance for North Korea's success is reunification -- under South Korea's control.
> 
> The other way around?
> 
> The ENTIRE Korean peninsula would be dark at night.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There's certainly no shortage of devils lurking in the details of Korean reunification. I don't think the (rich) generals in either country or those in the Pentagon will tolerate either side assuming total control of the reconciliation.
> 
> It's hard for me to believe it has been only ten years since the "sunshine policy" of SK's president Kim Dae-jung "was going to succeed in preventing a catastrophic collapse of the Communist regime, a flood of refugees, or even the outbreak of war."
> 
> It's probably worth investigating whether the current president of South Korea, Lee Myung Bak's, "first act was to abolish the government department set up to facilitate national unification."
> 
> That's the claim made by Antiwar.com
Click to expand...

The claim is true.
The ministry has been the focus of criticism throughout the administrations of the departing president, Roh Moo-hyun, and his predecessor, Kim Dae-jung.

The two leaders, promoting a so-called sunshine policy, brought about profoundly closer relations with the North, but they have been faulted for pouring aid across the border without managing to end North Korean nuclear weapons programs and human rights abuses.​Ending the practice of flushing money down the toilet with no return is a good idea.


----------



## daveman

Cain said:


> Yes, BMT for the USAF. (I love saying that, reminds me of Good Morning Vietnam scene with all the initials). I signed a 6yr contract with them, and I went through MEPS and passed with flying colors.
> 
> How did they not catch your back at MEPS? MY godfather was drafted for Vietnam from college, but they didn't allow him to go cause he was color blind (no joke). I would think a back problem would be on the top lists. My uncle got honorable discharge for injuring his during Desert Storm.
> 
> I hated MEPS, it was the longest day of my entire life, but it wasn't all that bad. A bunch of bs about the food though. "Paid for by the US Government" and it was some of the crappiest eggs I've ever seen lol. The eggs where like fish nets with eggs in them.


Wait until you get to Lackland, son.  

And thanks for enlisting.


----------



## daveman

georgephillip said:


> In this country some believe the president occupies the third level of power with (mostly rich) generals and admirals at the Pentagon ruling the second level while (very rich) global bankers ultimately call the shots.


Some people are idiots.


----------



## Jeremy

daveman said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> In this country some believe the president occupies the third level of power with (mostly rich) generals and admirals at the Pentagon ruling the second level while (very rich) global bankers ultimately call the shots.
> 
> 
> 
> Some people are idiots.
Click to expand...


Some?


----------



## Jeremy

daveman said:


> Cain said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, BMT for the USAF. (I love saying that, reminds me of Good Morning Vietnam scene with all the initials). I signed a 6yr contract with them, and I went through MEPS and passed with flying colors.
> 
> How did they not catch your back at MEPS? MY godfather was drafted for Vietnam from college, but they didn't allow him to go cause he was color blind (no joke). I would think a back problem would be on the top lists. My uncle got honorable discharge for injuring his during Desert Storm.
> 
> I hated MEPS, it was the longest day of my entire life, but it wasn't all that bad. A bunch of bs about the food though. "Paid for by the US Government" and it was some of the crappiest eggs I've ever seen lol. The eggs where like fish nets with eggs in them.
> 
> 
> 
> Wait until you get to Lackland, son.
> 
> And thanks for enlisting.
Click to expand...


I wonder if there is still that strategically placed McDonalds just out side the gates by the parade grounds. I fucking hated seeing those golden arches everyday ... just out of reach.


----------



## JBeukema

daveman said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Cowardice?  No.  Nearsightedness.
> 
> If you want to talk about cowardice, let's talk about your less-than-a-hundred-hours military career.
> 
> Chickenshit.
> 
> 
> 
> Tunnel vision.
> Keeping his eyes firmly on the money.
> The $3000 a week he earned for making war movies.
> 
> Fuck you and the Gipper.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Tough talk from a guy who went home crying to mommy.
> 
> As always, George, you're wrong.  Reagan did what he could given his physical limitations.  And it was far more than what you accomplished in the military.
Click to expand...

Why are you wasting time arguing with a troll?


----------



## JBeukema

georgephillip said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> Taking an honest look at average conditions in North Korea is easier to envision if you imagine all the points of South Korean light in the photo magically migrating north of the 38th parallel.
> 
> That would give an honest observer a reasonable approximation of the saturation bombing campaign conducted by the USAF during its "first war" in Korea.
> 
> By US admission we first turned every North Korean city and village into rubble and then came back and turned the rubble into pebbles. Curtis LeMay estimated we killed 20% of all human beings in North Korea.
> 
> Today the figure is widely believed to be one out of three North Koreans perished from US bombs. (I'm sure the profit margin on each bomb is only a happy capitalist coincidence, aren't you?)
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dude, it's been like 60 years. Why do you think they haven't rebuilt or developed?
> 
> Hint:it has something to do with batshit insane dictators
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Bat-shit insanity and dictators play big roles; however, I'm not using metaphor when I say US airpower reduced North Korea to something close to stone age existence.
> 
> Imagine if some interstellar terrorists "liberate" California by killing one out of every three Americans in 2011?
> 
> Imagine they "bomb" every US city and town into rubble and then come back and pound the rubble into pebbles.
> 
> Imagine they hang out in Malibu for the next 60 years...
> 
> If there's one word we are not paying close enough attention to in this discussion of Korea, I nominate "*reunification*."
> 
> My second nominee would be "*profits*" as in the 2 - 6 *trillion* dollars worth of minerals locked away inside North Korea.
Click to expand...


Japan and Europe are just fine


----------



## daveman

Jeremy said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> In this country some believe the president occupies the third level of power with (mostly rich) generals and admirals at the Pentagon ruling the second level while (very rich) global bankers ultimately call the shots.
> 
> 
> 
> Some people are idiots.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Some?
Click to expand...

Those who believe what George said, yes.


----------



## daveman

Jeremy said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cain said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, BMT for the USAF. (I love saying that, reminds me of Good Morning Vietnam scene with all the initials). I signed a 6yr contract with them, and I went through MEPS and passed with flying colors.
> 
> How did they not catch your back at MEPS? MY godfather was drafted for Vietnam from college, but they didn't allow him to go cause he was color blind (no joke). I would think a back problem would be on the top lists. My uncle got honorable discharge for injuring his during Desert Storm.
> 
> I hated MEPS, it was the longest day of my entire life, but it wasn't all that bad. A bunch of bs about the food though. "Paid for by the US Government" and it was some of the crappiest eggs I've ever seen lol. The eggs where like fish nets with eggs in them.
> 
> 
> 
> Wait until you get to Lackland, son.
> 
> And thanks for enlisting.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I wonder if there is still that strategically placed McDonalds just out side the gates by the parade grounds. I fucking hated seeing those golden arches everyday ... just out of reach.
Click to expand...

  I don't recall that...but it was almost 20 years ago.


----------



## daveman

JBeukema said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tunnel vision.
> Keeping his eyes firmly on the money.
> The $3000 a week he earned for making war movies.
> 
> Fuck you and the Gipper.
> 
> 
> 
> Tough talk from a guy who went home crying to mommy.
> 
> As always, George, you're wrong.  Reagan did what he could given his physical limitations.  And it was far more than what you accomplished in the military.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why are you wasting time arguing with a troll?
Click to expand...

Call me Pollyanna.  I believe everyone can be redeemed.  Even George.


----------



## Cain

daveman said:


> Cain said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, BMT for the USAF. (I love saying that, reminds me of Good Morning Vietnam scene with all the initials). I signed a 6yr contract with them, and I went through MEPS and passed with flying colors.
> 
> How did they not catch your back at MEPS? MY godfather was drafted for Vietnam from college, but they didn't allow him to go cause he was color blind (no joke). I would think a back problem would be on the top lists. My uncle got honorable discharge for injuring his during Desert Storm.
> 
> I hated MEPS, it was the longest day of my entire life, but it wasn't all that bad. A bunch of bs about the food though. "Paid for by the US Government" and it was some of the crappiest eggs I've ever seen lol. The eggs where like fish nets with eggs in them.
> 
> 
> 
> Wait until you get to Lackland, son.
> 
> And thanks for enlisting.
Click to expand...


Thanks, and that doesn't inspire confidence lol. It's all great though, I understand it will be the hardest thing I've ever done, that's just part of it. Keep my mouth shut is the advice everyone in my family gives me, and I plan to follow that.


----------



## Sallow

georgephillip said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> From Antiwar.com:
> 
> "Initial reports were unequivocal: those crazy North Koreans had once again broken the longstanding ceasefire and attacked the South, this time at Yeonpyeong Island, shelling civilian quarters, and killing two South Korean marines.
> 
> "A few hours later, however, a more nuanced story came out: it seems the South Koreans were conducting military 'exercises' near the disputed island, which North Korea claims as its territory, and South Korean ships had opened fire, albeit  they claim  not in the direction of the North Korean mainland.
> 
> "The North Koreans responded by taking it up a few notches, as is their wont, and opening fire on Yeonpyeong."
> 
> What were these "exercises" attempting to simulate?
> 
> "...the military exercises, code-named 'Hoguk,' involving all four branches of the South Korean armed forces and some 70,000 troops, *simulated an attack on North Korea*, and were meant to *provoke the North Koreans*, who responded as might be expected.
> 
> "*US troops were supposed to have participated* in the exercises, but apparently the Americans thought better of it and *pulled back at the last moment*  perhaps because they knew a *provocation* was in the making."
> 
> Korean Conundrum
> 
> Does anyone know the English translation for "Hoguk?"
> 
> What's "provocation" in Korean?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That may be the excuse.
> 
> But the real deal is blood on the beak of baby Il Jung..the 4 star General.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't know anything about the power structure in North Korea. Ultimate control usually belongs to high-ranking military officials in states as primitive as that one.
> 
> In this country some believe the president occupies the third level of power with (mostly rich) generals and admirals at the Pentagon ruling the second level while (very rich) global bankers ultimately call the shots.
> 
> It's probably no accident Goldman Sachs has recently become a big player in South Korean visions of reunification.
Click to expand...


You and just about everyone else doesn't really know who is pulling the strings in North Korea..its' pretty much an educated guess.

And I don't really go along with that assessment of the power structure in this country, although I am not naive enough to think there isn't some truth to it.

Haven't heard that about Goldman..but I can see why they are investing in South Korea. Very dynamic and "sexy" economy.


----------



## Paulie

daveman said:


> Cain said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, BMT for the USAF. (I love saying that, reminds me of Good Morning Vietnam scene with all the initials). I signed a 6yr contract with them, and I went through MEPS and passed with flying colors.
> 
> How did they not catch your back at MEPS? MY godfather was drafted for Vietnam from college, but they didn't allow him to go cause he was color blind (no joke). I would think a back problem would be on the top lists. My uncle got honorable discharge for injuring his during Desert Storm.
> 
> I hated MEPS, it was the longest day of my entire life, but it wasn't all that bad. A bunch of bs about the food though. "Paid for by the US Government" and it was some of the crappiest eggs I've ever seen lol. The eggs where like fish nets with eggs in them.
> 
> 
> 
> Wait until you get to Lackland, son.
> 
> And thanks for enlisting.
Click to expand...


Lackland is a cake walk, dude.

Follow directions and learn how to march, and you'll be fine.


----------



## georgephillip

Cain said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cain said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a question, what is the thing about military service in question of georgephillip? I am newer here, and I do not understand what the thing about it is? I am going to be heading to BMT at the end of my last year in school, and am curious about the basic training argument?
> 
> 
> 
> Cain:
> 
> BMT?
> 
> Basic Military Training?
> 
> I'm not really clear on  today's terminology; however in March of 1966 I enlisted in the USAF and spent ten of the longest days of my life in Texas. At the time I believed the US invasion of South Vietnam was in the best interest of "freedom" and even planned on volunteering to serve there after completing basic training at Lackland AFB.
> 
> Like many others I got homesick, but unlike most others I had an abnormal curvature to my spine that might make me eligible for a medical discharge.
> 
> It "worked" and while I'm glad I didn't actively support the murders of 2-3 million Vietnamese by the US military, there were also some unintended consequences. For example, 27 years later when I was 45 and my mother died I was still living under her roof.
> 
> Had I cut the umbilical in '66 that probably would not have been the case.
> 
> Frankly, I think if I could do it all over I would have refused induction and done my time in Federal prison.
> 
> That way I could have cut my ties to home without enabling the killing of innocent human beings.
> 
> Not sure if this has answered any of your questions.
> I am sure the biggest difference between my time and yours is the communication instrument we're using today.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, BMT for the USAF. (I love saying that, reminds me of Good Morning Vietnam scene with all the initials). I signed a 6yr contract with them, and I went through MEPS and passed with flying colors.
> 
> How did they not catch your back at MEPS? MY godfather was drafted for Vietnam from college, but they didn't allow him to go cause he was color blind (no joke). I would think a back problem would be on the top lists. My uncle got honorable discharge for injuring his during Desert Storm.
> 
> I hated MEPS, it was the longest day of my entire life, but it wasn't all that bad. A bunch of bs about the food though. "Paid for by the US Government" and it was some of the crappiest eggs I've ever seen lol. The eggs where like fish nets with eggs in them.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure they did catch my back at the induction center, because after I got home my mom took me to a local specialist who explained the complication to us.

As I recall at that time, the Navy, Air Force, and Coast Guard would discharge for conditions like mine while the Army and Marines would laugh.

About those eggs?
They were fish nets with yokes.
I blame Halliburton.

The worst eggs I've seen so far were at summer camp.
Some of the scrambled variety would actually bounce.
If you tossed those eggs toward the local squirrels, some squirrels would throw them back.

I hope you survive your tour without injuring any innocent humans including yourself.


----------



## georgephillip

daveman said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> The best chance for North Korea's success is reunification -- under South Korea's control.
> 
> The other way around?
> 
> The ENTIRE Korean peninsula would be dark at night.
> 
> 
> 
> There's certainly no shortage of devils lurking in the details of Korean reunification. I don't think the (rich) generals in either country or those in the Pentagon will tolerate either side assuming total control of the reconciliation.
> 
> It's hard for me to believe it has been only ten years since the "sunshine policy" of SK's president Kim Dae-jung "was going to succeed in preventing a catastrophic collapse of the Communist regime, a flood of refugees, or even the outbreak of war."
> 
> It's probably worth investigating whether the current president of South Korea, Lee Myung Bak's, "first act was to abolish the government department set up to facilitate national unification."
> 
> That's the claim made by Antiwar.com
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The claim is true.
> The ministry has been the focus of criticism throughout the administrations of the departing president, Roh Moo-hyun, and his predecessor, Kim Dae-jung.
> 
> The two leaders, promoting a so-called sunshine policy, brought about profoundly closer relations with the North, but they have been faulted for pouring aid across the border without managing to end North Korean nuclear weapons programs and human rights abuses.​Ending the practice of flushing money down the toilet with no return is a good idea.
Click to expand...

South Korea's Sunshine:

"The election of Mr. Lee, a conservative, on Dec. 19 ended a decade of liberal government here. 

"A former chief executive of Hyundai Construction and mayor of Seoul, he has vowed to run his government like an *efficient business*. 

"He will be sworn in as president on Feb. 25.

"Signaling the ideological shift, Mr. Lee also called for abolishing government commissions that have *investigated Korean collaborators during Japanese colonial rule of the Korean Peninsula in the early 20th century and human rights abuses by past South Korean military dictators*  investigations that have angered the* conservatives*."

The irony of conservatives.

Always ready to fault weapons programs and human rights violations of the "enemy" yet never fail to get angry when someone points out identical crimes in their closet.

Where's Curtis LeMay when you really need him?


----------



## georgephillip

JBeukema said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dude, it's been like 60 years. Why do you think they haven't rebuilt or developed?
> 
> Hint:it has something to do with batshit insane dictators
> 
> 
> 
> Bat-shit insanity and dictators play big roles; however, I'm not using metaphor when I say US airpower reduced North Korea to something close to stone age existence.
> 
> Imagine if some interstellar terrorists "liberate" California by killing one out of every three Americans in 2011?
> 
> Imagine they "bomb" every US city and town into rubble and then come back and pound the rubble into pebbles.
> 
> Imagine they hang out in Malibu for the next 60 years...
> 
> If there's one word we are not paying close enough attention to in this discussion of Korea, I nominate "*reunification*."
> 
> My second nominee would be "*profits*" as in the 2 - 6 *trillion* dollars worth of minerals locked away inside North Korea.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Japan and Europe are just fine
Click to expand...

Russia after WWII might provide the closest comparison to what we inflicted on North Korea. 20 - 25 million Russians died defeating Hitler, and in parts of Russia every third building was damaged or destroyed. 

While Russia had to manage its own recovery, the US taxpayer was there to help Europe and Japan. The Marshall Plan for Europe in particular allowed rich Europeans to invest their own money in Wall Street while Main Street USA PAID to rebuild Europe. (Keep in mind many Europeans who held onto their money during WWII did so by collaborating with Nazis.)

For centuries before the US came into existence, Korea was known as "the Hermit Kingdom." After the beating the US/UN inflicted on North Korea in the '50s, their conservatives might have done what all conservatives do in epochs of national despair...try to return to a "safer" time in the past.

If so, they pretty much succeeded.


----------



## georgephillip

daveman said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tough talk from a guy who went home crying to mommy.
> 
> As always, George, you're wrong.  Reagan did what he could given his physical limitations.  And it was far more than what you accomplished in the military.
> 
> 
> 
> Why are you wasting time arguing with a troll?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Call me Pollyanna.  I believe everyone can be redeemed.  Even George.
Click to expand...

Hey, Polly...

How about Kim Jong Un?
Or Lee Myung-Bak?
Curtis LeMay...wait..too late for his redemption.


----------



## georgephillip

Sallow said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> That may be the excuse.
> 
> But the real deal is blood on the beak of baby Il Jung..the 4 star General.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know anything about the power structure in North Korea. Ultimate control usually belongs to high-ranking military officials in states as primitive as that one.
> 
> In this country some believe the president occupies the third level of power with (mostly rich) generals and admirals at the Pentagon ruling the second level while (very rich) global bankers ultimately call the shots.
> 
> It's probably no accident Goldman Sachs has recently become a big player in South Korean visions of reunification.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You and just about everyone else doesn't really know who is pulling the strings in North Korea..its' pretty much an educated guess.
> 
> And I don't really go along with that assessment of the power structure in this country, although I am not naive enough to think there isn't some truth to it.
> 
> Haven't heard that about Goldman..but I can see why they are investing in South Korea. Very dynamic and "sexy" economy.
Click to expand...

Peter Lee offered this assessment last June, shortly after the Cheonon sank:

"South Korea's latest (reunification) Vision 3000 video-conference pitch was hosted by *Goldman Sachs*.

A high tech trends website, h+, breathlessly spun the latest reunification scenario: *it will pay for itself!* 

"With 'change left over!' 

"Just like Iraq!

More arithmetic for you:

The Rand Corporation estimates the cost of Korean reunification at $50 billion, Credit Suisse insists $1.5 trillion is the expense, and Stanford fellow Peter M. Beck posits an alarmist $2-$5 trillion.

    Question: Who's got that kind of cash?

    Answer: North Korean mines. 360 minerals are sequestered in the Hermit Kingdom's caves, many trapped by flooding and NK's [North Korea's] appalling infrastructure. 

"*Billions of tons* of coal, iron, zinc, magnesite, nickel, uranium, tungsten, phosphate, graphite, gold, silver, mercury, sulfur, limestone, copper, manganese, molybdenum... worth an estimated $2-$6 trillion (*Goldman Sach's figure is $2.5 trillion*). 

"*Reunification could be entirely paid for by these mines, perhaps with change left over."*

'Guess Goldman's money funnel still works.


----------



## Sallow

georgephillip said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know anything about the power structure in North Korea. Ultimate control usually belongs to high-ranking military officials in states as primitive as that one.
> 
> In this country some believe the president occupies the third level of power with (mostly rich) generals and admirals at the Pentagon ruling the second level while (very rich) global bankers ultimately call the shots.
> 
> It's probably no accident Goldman Sachs has recently become a big player in South Korean visions of reunification.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You and just about everyone else doesn't really know who is pulling the strings in North Korea..its' pretty much an educated guess.
> 
> And I don't really go along with that assessment of the power structure in this country, although I am not naive enough to think there isn't some truth to it.
> 
> Haven't heard that about Goldman..but I can see why they are investing in South Korea. Very dynamic and "sexy" economy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Peter Lee offered this assessment last June, shortly after the Cheonon sank:
> 
> "South Korea's latest (reunification) Vision 3000 video-conference pitch was hosted by *Goldman Sachs*.
> 
> A high tech trends website, h+, breathlessly spun the latest reunification scenario: *it will pay for itself!*
> 
> "With 'change left over!'
> 
> "Just like Iraq!
> 
> More arithmetic for you:
> 
> The Rand Corporation estimates the cost of Korean reunification at $50 billion, Credit Suisse insists $1.5 trillion is the expense, and Stanford fellow Peter M. Beck posits an alarmist $2-$5 trillion.
> 
> Question: Who's got that kind of cash?
> 
> Answer: North Korean mines. 360 minerals are sequestered in the Hermit Kingdom's caves, many trapped by flooding and NK's [North Korea's] appalling infrastructure.
> 
> "*Billions of tons* of coal, iron, zinc, magnesite, nickel, uranium, tungsten, phosphate, graphite, gold, silver, mercury, sulfur, limestone, copper, manganese, molybdenum... worth an estimated $2-$6 trillion (*Goldman Sach's figure is $2.5 trillion*).
> 
> "*Reunification could be entirely paid for by these mines, perhaps with change left over."*
> 
> 'Guess Goldman's money funnel still works.
Click to expand...


Hmm..didn't know that.

Just thought it was rocky and cold there.

Thanks!


----------



## adeel_sami

Gosh !!! No more war !!!!


----------



## georgephillip

Would you be interested in buying a slightly used Predator Drone?


----------



## Toro

georgephillip said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know anything about the power structure in North Korea. Ultimate control usually belongs to high-ranking military officials in states as primitive as that one.
> 
> In this country some believe the president occupies the third level of power with (mostly rich) generals and admirals at the Pentagon ruling the second level while (very rich) global bankers ultimately call the shots.
> 
> It's probably no accident Goldman Sachs has recently become a big player in South Korean visions of reunification.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You and just about everyone else doesn't really know who is pulling the strings in North Korea..its' pretty much an educated guess.
> 
> And I don't really go along with that assessment of the power structure in this country, although I am not naive enough to think there isn't some truth to it.
> 
> Haven't heard that about Goldman..but I can see why they are investing in South Korea. Very dynamic and "sexy" economy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Peter Lee offered this assessment last June, shortly after the Cheonon sank:
> 
> "South Korea's latest (reunification) Vision 3000 video-conference pitch was hosted by *Goldman Sachs*.
> 
> A high tech trends website, h+, breathlessly spun the latest reunification scenario: *it will pay for itself!*
> 
> "With 'change left over!'
> 
> "Just like Iraq!
> 
> More arithmetic for you:
> 
> The Rand Corporation estimates the cost of Korean reunification at $50 billion, Credit Suisse insists $1.5 trillion is the expense, and Stanford fellow Peter M. Beck posits an alarmist $2-$5 trillion.
> 
> Question: Who's got that kind of cash?
> 
> Answer: North Korean mines. 360 minerals are sequestered in the Hermit Kingdom's caves, many trapped by flooding and NK's [North Korea's] appalling infrastructure.
> 
> "*Billions of tons* of coal, iron, zinc, magnesite, nickel, uranium, tungsten, phosphate, graphite, gold, silver, mercury, sulfur, limestone, copper, manganese, molybdenum... worth an estimated $2-$6 trillion (*Goldman Sach's figure is $2.5 trillion*).
> 
> "*Reunification could be entirely paid for by these mines, perhaps with change left over."*
> 
> 'Guess Goldman's money funnel still works.
Click to expand...


Just like the Iraqi oil fields were supposed to pay for the Iraqi invasion.

Nobody has any idea what it would cost, but it would most certainly "cost."  There wouldn't be a profit.

The cost of integrating East Germany into the West was enormous, and at the time, GDP per capita in the West was about 4x-5x that of the East.  South Korea's GDP per capita is 15x-20x than of the North, and the North is a basket-case compared to East Germany.  East Germany was the most productive economy in the eastern bloc, achieving second world status.  North Korea produces virtually nothing of value for export, and has a brow-beaten population cowed into believing that invasion is imminent.  North Korea made East Germany look like Switzerland.


----------



## georgephillip

For thousands of years all governments have found ways to socialize cost and privatize profit. If there are in fact $2 - $6 trillion worth of minerals in North Korea, wouldn't a few existing private fortunes benefit immensely from their mining? 

Wouldn't one or two North Korean generals get filthy rich also?


----------



## Cain

georgephillip said:


> Cain said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> Cain:
> 
> BMT?
> 
> Basic Military Training?
> 
> I'm not really clear on  today's terminology; however in March of 1966 I enlisted in the USAF and spent ten of the longest days of my life in Texas. At the time I believed the US invasion of South Vietnam was in the best interest of "freedom" and even planned on volunteering to serve there after completing basic training at Lackland AFB.
> 
> Like many others I got homesick, but unlike most others I had an abnormal curvature to my spine that might make me eligible for a medical discharge.
> 
> It "worked" and while I'm glad I didn't actively support the murders of 2-3 million Vietnamese by the US military, there were also some unintended consequences. For example, 27 years later when I was 45 and my mother died I was still living under her roof.
> 
> Had I cut the umbilical in '66 that probably would not have been the case.
> 
> Frankly, I think if I could do it all over I would have refused induction and done my time in Federal prison.
> 
> That way I could have cut my ties to home without enabling the killing of innocent human beings.
> 
> Not sure if this has answered any of your questions.
> I am sure the biggest difference between my time and yours is the communication instrument we're using today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, BMT for the USAF. (I love saying that, reminds me of Good Morning Vietnam scene with all the initials). I signed a 6yr contract with them, and I went through MEPS and passed with flying colors.
> 
> How did they not catch your back at MEPS? MY godfather was drafted for Vietnam from college, but they didn't allow him to go cause he was color blind (no joke). I would think a back problem would be on the top lists. My uncle got honorable discharge for injuring his during Desert Storm.
> 
> I hated MEPS, it was the longest day of my entire life, but it wasn't all that bad. A bunch of bs about the food though. "Paid for by the US Government" and it was some of the crappiest eggs I've ever seen lol. The eggs where like fish nets with eggs in them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm pretty sure they did catch my back at the induction center, because after I got home my mom took me to a local specialist who explained the complication to us.
> 
> As I recall at that time, the Navy, Air Force, and Coast Guard would discharge for conditions like mine while the Army and Marines would laugh.
> 
> About those eggs?
> They were fish nets with yokes.
> I blame Halliburton.
> 
> The worst eggs I've seen so far were at summer camp.
> Some of the scrambled variety would actually bounce.
> If you tossed those eggs toward the local squirrels, some squirrels would throw them back.
> 
> I hope you survive your tour without injuring any innocent humans including yourself.
Click to expand...


Well, I am pretty sure I'll do fine in their. I do not PLAN to injure anyone, I will defend myself if attacked, and will follow my orders. I do not know what it will be like when I finally ship out, but war is a part of the military. Part of the world.


----------



## daveman

georgephillip said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why are you wasting time arguing with a troll?
> 
> 
> 
> Call me Pollyanna.  I believe everyone can be redeemed.  Even George.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hey, Polly...
> 
> How about Kim Jong Un?
> Or Lee Myung-Bak?
> Curtis LeMay...wait..too late for his redemption.
Click to expand...


Looks like I was wrong.  You're hopeless.


----------



## georgephillip

The Season of Hopeless is fast approaching, d-man.

Are you ready?


----------



## georgephillip

Cain said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cain said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, BMT for the USAF. (I love saying that, reminds me of Good Morning Vietnam scene with all the initials). I signed a 6yr contract with them, and I went through MEPS and passed with flying colors.
> 
> How did they not catch your back at MEPS? MY godfather was drafted for Vietnam from college, but they didn't allow him to go cause he was color blind (no joke). I would think a back problem would be on the top lists. My uncle got honorable discharge for injuring his during Desert Storm.
> 
> I hated MEPS, it was the longest day of my entire life, but it wasn't all that bad. A bunch of bs about the food though. "Paid for by the US Government" and it was some of the crappiest eggs I've ever seen lol. The eggs where like fish nets with eggs in them.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm pretty sure they did catch my back at the induction center, because after I got home my mom took me to a local specialist who explained the complication to us.
> 
> As I recall at that time, the Navy, Air Force, and Coast Guard would discharge for conditions like mine while the Army and Marines would laugh.
> 
> About those eggs?
> They were fish nets with yokes.
> I blame Halliburton.
> 
> The worst eggs I've seen so far were at summer camp.
> Some of the scrambled variety would actually bounce.
> If you tossed those eggs toward the local squirrels, some squirrels would throw them back.
> 
> I hope you survive your tour without injuring any innocent humans including yourself.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, I am pretty sure I'll do fine in their. I do not PLAN to injure anyone, I will defend myself if attacked, and will follow my orders. I do not know what it will be like when I finally ship out, but war is a part of the military. Part of the world.
Click to expand...

Cain:

I'm including a link to a 72 page book (all online) written in the 1930s by one of the most decorate marines of all time. Major General Smedley Darlington Butler resigned from the Corps after WWI but not before winning the Congressional Medal of Honor... twice.

When Butler saw the clouds forming for WWII he wrote:

War is a Racket

It's a book I wish I had read at your age:

"*WAR is a racket. It always has been*.

It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. 

"It is the only one international in scope. 

"*It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives.*

"A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. 

"Only a small 'inside' group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. 

"*Out of war a few people make huge fortunes*.

"In the World War _ a mere handful garnered the profits of the conflict. 

"*At least 21,000 new millionaires and billionaires were made in the United States during the World War.* 

"That many admitted their huge blood gains in their income tax returns. How many other war millionaires falsified their tax returns no one knows.

"How many of these war millionaires shouldered a rifle? How many of them dug a trench? 

"How many of them knew what it meant to go hungry in a rat-infested dug-out? How many of them spent sleepless, frightened nights, ducking shells and shrapnel and machine gun bullets? 

"How many of them parried a bayonet thrust of an enemy? 

"How many of them were wounded or killed in battle?

"Out of war nations acquire additional territory, if they are victorious. 

"They just take it. 

"This newly acquired territory promptly is exploited by the few &#8211; the *selfsame few who wrung dollars out of blood in the war*. 

"*The general public shoulders the bill*."

I hope you survive the next six years with your humanity in tact._


----------



## daveman

georgephillip said:


> The Season of Hopeless is fast approaching, d-man.
> 
> Are you ready?



I've seen your kind of "hope" -- as in, "I sure do hope America gets transformed into the USSR circa 1958!"

You're nostalgic for an America that never was.  You insist others do all the heavy lifting to effect that change and then you expect them to hand the reigns over to you.  

You're destined to go through life bitter and disappointed.


----------



## daveman

georgephillip said:


> I'm including a link to a 72 page book (all online) written in the 1930s by one of the most decorate marines of all time. Major General Smedley Darlington Butler resigned from the Corps after WWI but not before winning the Congressional Medal of Honor... twice.



Cain, you'll do well to ignore George.  He's a bitter, twisted, impotent, powerless coward.


----------



## georgephillip

He's not any of the above!

"Smedley Darlington Butler (July 30, 1881 &#8211; June 21, 1940), nicknamed "The Fighting Quaker" and "Old Gimlet Eye", was a Major General in the U.S. Marine Corps, and at the time of his death the *most decorated Marine in U.S. history*.

"During his 34-year career as a Marine, he participated in military actions in the Philippines, China, in Central America and the Caribbean during the Banana Wars, and France in World War I. 

"By the end of his career he had received 16 medals, five of which were for heroism. 

"*He is one of 19 people to twice receive the Medal of Honor, one of three to be awarded both the Marine Corps Brevet Medal and the Medal of Honor, and the only person to be awarded the Brevet Medal and two Medals of Honor, all for separate actions.*

daveman: Master of conflating message and messenger.


----------



## daveman

georgephillip said:


> He's not any of the above!
> 
> "Smedley Darlington Butler (July 30, 1881  June 21, 1940), nicknamed "The Fighting Quaker" and "Old Gimlet Eye", was a Major General in the U.S. Marine Corps, and at the time of his death the *most decorated Marine in U.S. history*.
> 
> "During his 34-year career as a Marine, he participated in military actions in the Philippines, China, in Central America and the Caribbean during the Banana Wars, and France in World War I.
> 
> "By the end of his career he had received 16 medals, five of which were for heroism.
> 
> "*He is one of 19 people to twice receive the Medal of Honor, one of three to be awarded both the Marine Corps Brevet Medal and the Medal of Honor, and the only person to be awarded the Brevet Medal and two Medals of Honor, all for separate actions.*
> 
> daveman: Master of conflating message and messenger.


No, George.  I said YOU are a bitter, twisted, impotent, powerless coward.


----------



## georgephillip

Do you  believe War is a Racket?

If so, why do YOU profit from its crimes?


----------



## Ozmar

georgephillip said:


> Do you  believe War is a Racket?
> 
> If so, why do YOU profit from its crimes?



War's not a racket. This is a racket:


----------



## Cain

georgephillip said:


> Cain said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm pretty sure they did catch my back at the induction center, because after I got home my mom took me to a local specialist who explained the complication to us.
> 
> As I recall at that time, the Navy, Air Force, and Coast Guard would discharge for conditions like mine while the Army and Marines would laugh.
> 
> About those eggs?
> They were fish nets with yokes.
> I blame Halliburton.
> 
> The worst eggs I've seen so far were at summer camp.
> Some of the scrambled variety would actually bounce.
> If you tossed those eggs toward the local squirrels, some squirrels would throw them back.
> 
> I hope you survive your tour without injuring any innocent humans including yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I am pretty sure I'll do fine in their. I do not PLAN to injure anyone, I will defend myself if attacked, and will follow my orders. I do not know what it will be like when I finally ship out, but war is a part of the military. Part of the world.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Cain:
> 
> I'm including a link to a 72 page book (all online) written in the 1930s by one of the most decorate marines of all time. Major General Smedley Darlington Butler resigned from the Corps after WWI but not before winning the Congressional Medal of Honor... twice.
> 
> When Butler saw the clouds forming for WWII he wrote:
> 
> War is a Racket
> 
> It's a book I wish I had read at your age:
> 
> "*WAR is a racket. It always has been*.
> 
> It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious.
> 
> "It is the only one international in scope.
> 
> "*It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives.*
> 
> "A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people.
> 
> "Only a small 'inside' group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many.
> 
> "*Out of war a few people make huge fortunes*.
> 
> "In the World War _ a mere handful garnered the profits of the conflict.
> 
> "*At least 21,000 new millionaires and billionaires were made in the United States during the World War.*
> 
> "That many admitted their huge blood gains in their income tax returns. How many other war millionaires falsified their tax returns no one knows.
> 
> "How many of these war millionaires shouldered a rifle? How many of them dug a trench?
> 
> "How many of them knew what it meant to go hungry in a rat-infested dug-out? How many of them spent sleepless, frightened nights, ducking shells and shrapnel and machine gun bullets?
> 
> "How many of them parried a bayonet thrust of an enemy?
> 
> "How many of them were wounded or killed in battle?
> 
> "Out of war nations acquire additional territory, if they are victorious.
> 
> "They just take it.
> 
> "This newly acquired territory promptly is exploited by the few  the *selfsame few who wrung dollars out of blood in the war*.
> 
> "*The general public shoulders the bill*."
> 
> I hope you survive the next six years with your humanity in tact._
Click to expand...

_

I understand war is serious, and dangerous. It can be damaging physically, and emotionally. I have seen a lot of my family members who where in conflicts (ww2, korea, vietnam, desert storm, iraqi freedom, etc) come back and say it was awful, and some of them, although a select few, tell me stories from then. I get it, it's a terrible thing, but it is a part of the world, and someone has to be willing to stand up for others, and I am very willing.

I understand not many agree with war, but just because I joined the military doesn't mean I agree, it means whether I agree or not, I'll do my best to protect my people. I am not going to become twisted, unless I am meant to, and I know people that war has twisted, I am related to one, but that doesn't mean everyone will become that. I am willing to take that risk, if it means being there to protect others from the same fate, or worse.



daveman said:





georgephillip said:



			I'm including a link to a 72 page book (all online) written in the 1930s by one of the most decorate marines of all time. Major General Smedley Darlington Butler resigned from the Corps after WWI but not before winning the Congressional Medal of Honor... twice.
		
Click to expand...


Cain, you'll do well to ignore George.  He's a bitter, twisted, impotent, powerless coward.
		
Click to expand...


I am simply replying with my opinion and how I see things, that is all anyone can do in any conversation I believe._


----------



## daveman

georgephillip said:


> Do you  believe War is a Racket?
> 
> If so, why do YOU profit from its crimes?



What crimes?  Killing terrorists is not a crime, dumbass.


----------



## daveman

Cain said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm including a link to a 72 page book (all online) written in the 1930s by one of the most decorate marines of all time. Major General Smedley Darlington Butler resigned from the Corps after WWI but not before winning the Congressional Medal of Honor... twice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cain, you'll do well to ignore George.  He's a bitter, twisted, impotent, powerless coward.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I am simply replying with my opinion and how I see things, that is all anyone can do in any conversation I believe.
Click to expand...


Indeed.


----------



## JBeukema

daveman said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you  believe War is a Racket?
> 
> If so, why do YOU profit from its crimes?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What crimes?  Killing terrorists is not a crime, dumbass.
Click to expand...

According ti the US, 2/3 of those killed were civilians and not terrorists, 'enemy combatants', or soldiers- they were just wrong colour and in the way of American imperialism.


----------



## georgephillip

daveman said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you  believe War is a Racket?
> 
> If so, why do YOU profit from its crimes?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What crimes?  Killing terrorists is not a crime, dumbass.
Click to expand...

Since March 2003 one in four Iraqis has become dead, deformed, displaced, or imprisoned.

Were they all terrorists?

Do you consider Dick Cheney and Dubya terrorists?


----------



## daveman

georgephillip said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you  believe War is a Racket?
> 
> If so, why do YOU profit from its crimes?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What crimes?  Killing terrorists is not a crime, dumbass.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Since March 2003 one in four Iraqis has become dead, deformed, displaced, or imprisoned.
Click to expand...

I'd ask for a credible citation, but there are none.  You probably believe that horseshit Lancet study, don't you?


georgephillip said:


> Were they all terrorists?


And I bet you're counting the ones your beloved "freedom fighters" killed, too, aren't you?


georgephillip said:


> Do you consider Dick Cheney and Dubya terrorists?


I know they're not terrorists.  If they were, you'd love them.


----------



## JBeukema

He probably took the number from here:

Iraqis: life is getting better - Times Online

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...sg=AFQjCNHxESBi9e4Cbfjw2-pVeEcNaL4i5g&cad=rja


----------



## daveman

JBeukema said:


> He probably took the number from here:
> 
> Iraqis: life is getting better - Times Online
> 
> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...sg=AFQjCNHxESBi9e4Cbfjw2-pVeEcNaL4i5g&cad=rja



One in four Iraqis has had a family member murdered, says the poll by Opinion Research Business. In Baghdad, the capital, one in four has had a relative kidnapped and one in three said members of their family had fled abroad. But when asked whether they preferred life under Saddam, the dictator who was executed last December, or under Nouri al-Maliki, the prime minister, most replied that things were better for them today.​
But George knows better than they do.


----------



## georgephillip

daveman said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> What crimes?  Killing terrorists is not a crime, dumbass.
> 
> 
> 
> Since March 2003 one in four Iraqis has become dead, deformed, displaced, or imprisoned.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'd ask for a credible citation, but there are none.  You probably believe that horseshit Lancet study, don't you?
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> Were they all terrorists?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And I bet you're counting the ones your beloved "freedom fighters" killed, too, aren't you?
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you consider Dick Cheney and Dubya terrorists?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I know they're not terrorists.  If they were, you'd love them.
Click to expand...

Are these people all terrorists?

"Overview
Seven years after the U.S. military occupation of Iraq, the country continues to face large scale displacement and pressing humanitarian needs.  

"*Millions of Iraqis have fled their homes* &#8211; either for safer locations within Iraq or to other countries in the region &#8211; and are living in increasingly desperate circumstances.  

"Iraq&#8217;s future will only be secure and prosperous if the needs of the displaced are also considered in all current and future policies and planning.


----------



## georgephillip

daveman said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> He probably took the number from here:
> 
> Iraqis: life is getting better - Times Online
> 
> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...sg=AFQjCNHxESBi9e4Cbfjw2-pVeEcNaL4i5g&cad=rja
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One in four Iraqis has had a family member murdered, says the poll by Opinion Research Business. In Baghdad, the capital, one in four has had a relative kidnapped and one in three said members of their family had fled abroad. But when asked whether they preferred life under Saddam, the dictator who was executed last December, or under Nouri al-Maliki, the prime minister, most replied that things were better for them today.​
> But George knows better than they do.
Click to expand...

Did you notice when that survey was taken?

Maybe you should think about moving to Fallujah?

Uranium nights...


----------



## daveman

georgephillip said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> Since March 2003 one in four Iraqis has become dead, deformed, displaced, or imprisoned.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd ask for a credible citation, but there are none.  You probably believe that horseshit Lancet study, don't you?
> 
> And I bet you're counting the ones your beloved "freedom fighters" killed, too, aren't you?
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you consider Dick Cheney and Dubya terrorists?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I know they're not terrorists.  If they were, you'd love them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are these people all terrorists?
> 
> "Overview
> Seven years after the U.S. military occupation of Iraq, the country continues to face large scale displacement and pressing humanitarian needs.
> 
> "*Millions of Iraqis have fled their homes*  either for safer locations within Iraq or to other countries in the region  and are living in increasingly desperate circumstances.
> 
> "Iraqs future will only be secure and prosperous if the needs of the displaced are also considered in all current and future policies and planning.
Click to expand...

So, they just toss out the word "millions", and like a good little robot, you believe it.


----------



## daveman

georgephillip said:


> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> He probably took the number from here:
> 
> Iraqis: life is getting better - Times Online
> 
> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...sg=AFQjCNHxESBi9e4Cbfjw2-pVeEcNaL4i5g&cad=rja
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One in four Iraqis has had a family member murdered, says the poll by Opinion Research Business. In Baghdad, the capital, one in four has had a relative kidnapped and one in three said members of their family had fled abroad. But when asked whether they preferred life under Saddam, the dictator who was executed last December, or under Nouri al-Maliki, the prime minister, most replied that things were better for them today.​
> But George knows better than they do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Did you notice when that survey was taken?
Click to expand...

So, you're saying the Iraqis are in worse shape now?


georgephillip said:


> Maybe you should think about moving to Fallujah?
> 
> Uranium nights...


I bet you believed the terrorists' press release about Fallujah, just like Murtha did.


----------



## Synthaholic

daveman said:


> JBeukema said:
> 
> 
> 
> He probably took the number from here:
> 
> Iraqis: life is getting better - Times Online
> 
> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...sg=AFQjCNHxESBi9e4Cbfjw2-pVeEcNaL4i5g&cad=rja
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One in four Iraqis has had a family member murdered, says the poll by Opinion Research Business. In Baghdad, the capital, one in four has had a relative kidnapped and one in three said members of their family had fled abroad. But when asked whether they preferred life under Saddam, the dictator who was executed last December, or under Nouri al-Maliki, the prime minister, most replied that things were better for them today.​
> But George knows better than they do.
Click to expand...


Those are two unconnected stories that you are trying to co-mingle.  The fact that they see their life as better under Maliki than Saddam has no connection to the amount of innocents killed.

Plus, if you asked whether their 'freedom' was a fair trade for their son, husband or father, I suspect that the answer would be 'no'.


----------



## georgephillip

daveman said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'd ask for a credible citation, but there are none.  You probably believe that horseshit Lancet study, don't you?
> 
> And I bet you're counting the ones your beloved "freedom fighters" killed, too, aren't you?
> 
> I know they're not terrorists.  If they were, you'd love them.
> 
> 
> 
> Are these people all terrorists?
> 
> "Overview
> Seven years after the U.S. military occupation of Iraq, the country continues to face large scale displacement and pressing humanitarian needs.
> 
> "*Millions of Iraqis have fled their homes*  either for safer locations within Iraq or to other countries in the region  and are living in increasingly desperate circumstances.
> 
> "Iraqs future will only be secure and prosperous if the needs of the displaced are also considered in all current and future policies and planning.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So, they just toss out the word "millions", and like a good little robot, you believe it.
Click to expand...

"Refugees - Wiki

    * As of *November 4, 2006*, the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees estimated that *1.8 million Iraqis* had been displaced to neighboring countries, and *1.6 million* were displaced internally, with nearly 100,000 Iraqis fleeing to Syria and Jordan each month."

What's your estimate for Iraqi displacement due to US occupation?

Or do you dispute the word "occupation?"

How about "illegal?"


----------



## georgephillip

daveman said:


> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> daveman said:
> 
> 
> 
> One in four Iraqis has had a family member murdered, says the poll by Opinion Research Business. In Baghdad, the capital, one in four has had a relative kidnapped and one in three said members of their family had fled abroad. But when asked whether they preferred life under Saddam, the dictator who was executed last December, or under Nouri al-Maliki, the prime minister, most replied that things were better for them today.​
> But George knows better than they do.
> 
> 
> 
> Did you notice when that survey was taken?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So, you're saying the Iraqis are in worse shape now?
> 
> 
> georgephillip said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe you should think about moving to Fallujah?
> 
> Uranium nights...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I bet you believed the terrorists' press release about Fallujah, just like Murtha did.
Click to expand...

"The survey of more than 5,000 Iraqis found the majority optimistic despite their suffering in sectarian violence since the American-led invasion four years ago this week.

"One in four Iraqis has had a family member murdered, says the poll by Opinion Research Business. 

"In Baghdad, the capital, one in four has had a relative kidnapped and one in three said members of their family had fled abroad. 

"But when asked whether they preferred life under Saddam, the dictator who was executed last December, or under Nouri al-Maliki, the prime minister, most replied that things were better for them today...

*"More than half say security will improve after a withdrawal of multinational forces.*"

How would the poll results change if millions of Iraqi refugees were posed these same questions?

Were any imprisoned Iraqis queried on their opinions?

Are you clear yet on why Halliburton Dick and Draft Ducking Dubya and "their base" should be allowed to earn $millions from war crimes like the US assault on Fallujah?

Or is that beyond your pay grade?  

Iraqis: life is getting...


----------



## AquaAthena

xomputer said:


> Report: N. Korea fires on S. Korea, injuring at least 4 - CNN.com
> North Korea on Tuesday fired artillery into the sea near its tense western sea border with South Korea, injuring at least four South Korean soldiers, the Yonhap news agency reported.
> 
> Some of the artillery landed directly on an inhabited island, and South Korea's military returned fire, Yonhap said, citing Col. Lee Bung-woo, spokesman for the South's Joint Chiefs of Staff.
> 
> The firing began about 2:30 p.m. local time. The South Korean army raised its alert condition and braced for any possible fire, the report said.
> 
> Images of plumes of smoke were quickly broadcast on Yonhap television, but it was not immediately clear what the artillery had hit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was a clear provocation!!!
Click to expand...



But Mr. Obama finally did weigh in by stating that We strongly affirm our commitment to defend South Korea.

Our democratic allies in the Pacific can be forgiven for doubting this resolve, given that the White House has focused more effort recently on passing the START treaty, which could eviscerate our missile defense and further impair our strategic deterrence, than addressing the threat at hand, with its broadening nuclear ambitions and brazen aggression. _Reality is calling, but Mr. Obama refuses to answer, entranced still by his naive nuclear-free-world utopianism and instinctive liberal distrust of America standing up for itself and its allies._The Obama administration has reported that the aircraft carrier USS George Washington and her battle group will proceed to the Yellow Sea west of Korea as a show of force. But this was an exercise planned before the recent North Korean attack and revelation of a new uranium-based nuclear weapons line. As such, it will be seen at best as a modest gesture. A similar show after North Korea sank an allied naval vessel in March had little effect on the regime.

Mr. Obamas Defense Secretary demonstrated no more resolve. After the attack, he offered little more than a compliment of his South Korean counterparts restraint shown to date. This translates roughly to _Thank you for resisting the urge to defend your nation. (South Korean President Lee has since sacked the defense minister.)_

FoxNews.com - How to Take Down North Korea, Without Waging War


----------



## Mad Scientist

China, Japan and Korea have been fighting for thousands of years. Even unifying Korea won't change that.

Pull all of our troops from South Korea and let them go at it, winner take all. Then we can sit back and watch China, Japan and Korea fight with each other again. That'll *never* change.


----------



## Valerie

> SEOUL: Tensions remained high on the Korean Peninsula in the wake of the artillery duel between North and South Korea, amid signs that China was gearing up its diplomacy to try to ease the atmosphere.
> 
> South Korean and US forces Sunday went ahead with major naval manoeuvres in the Yellow Sea, adding to the security jitters in the region after the artillery exchange which left four South Koreans dead on Yeonpyeong Island near the two countries' disputed maritime border.
> 
> Amid the tensions, China sent a diplomat to Seoul to meet with top South Korean leaders, and also on Sunday proposed an emergency meeting of six-party talks in early December.
> 
> Special envoy for Korea Wu Dawei told journalists that Beijing was proposing that chief negotiators from North and South Korea, the US, China, Japan and Russia should meet early December in Beijing.


China seeks six-party talks on Korea; naval drills start - The Times of India


----------



## AquaAthena

Mad Scientist said:


> China, Japan and Korea have been fighting for thousands of years. Even unifying Korea won't change that.
> 
> Pull all of our troops from South Korea and let them go at it, winner take all. Then we can sit back and watch China, Japan and Korea fight with each other again. That'll *never* change.




"North Korea threatens all of this. It also has a long history of proliferating weapons to loathsome regimes, and could one day arm Islamist terrorists with nuclear material for the right price.

"To help the North Korean people end the regime, the U.S. and its democratic allies should consider the following:" ( Six strategies)

FoxNews.com - How to Take Down North Korea, Without Waging War


----------



## rightwinger

Mad Scientist said:


> China, Japan and Korea have been fighting for thousands of years. Even unifying Korea won't change that.
> 
> Pull all of our troops from South Korea and let them go at it, winner take all. Then we can sit back and watch China, Japan and Korea fight with each other again. That'll *never* change.



I think the cultures in those countries have changed significantly from a thousand years ago. Capitalism and westernazation have taken hold. Europe has been fighting longer than China and Japan....should we let them go at it too?


----------



## rightwinger

AquaAthena said:


> Mad Scientist said:
> 
> 
> 
> China, Japan and Korea have been fighting for thousands of years. Even unifying Korea won't change that.
> 
> Pull all of our troops from South Korea and let them go at it, winner take all. Then we can sit back and watch China, Japan and Korea fight with each other again. That'll *never* change.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you agree with John Bolton?
> 
> "North Korea threatens all of this. It also has a long history of proliferating weapons to loathsome regimes, and could one day arm Islamist terrorists with nuclear material for the right price.
> 
> "To help the North Korean people end the regime, the U.S. and its democratic allies should consider the following:" ( Six strategies)
> 
> FoxNews.com - How to Take Down North Korea, Without Waging War
Click to expand...


Bolton is an extremist moron with no respect for his views on global politics. One of many bizarre picks by Bush


----------



## Valerie

AquaAthena said:


> xomputer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Report: N. Korea fires on S. Korea, injuring at least 4 - CNN.com
> North Korea on Tuesday fired artillery into the sea near its tense western sea border with South Korea, injuring at least four South Korean soldiers, the Yonhap news agency reported.
> 
> Some of the artillery landed directly on an inhabited island, and South Korea's military returned fire, Yonhap said, citing Col. Lee Bung-woo, spokesman for the South's Joint Chiefs of Staff.
> 
> The firing began about 2:30 p.m. local time. The South Korean army raised its alert condition and braced for any possible fire, the report said.
> 
> Images of plumes of smoke were quickly broadcast on Yonhap television, but it was not immediately clear what the artillery had hit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was a clear provocation!!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> But Mr. Obama finally did weigh in by stating that We strongly affirm our commitment to defend South Korea.
> 
> Our democratic allies in the Pacific can be forgiven for doubting this resolve, given that the White House has focused more effort recently on passing the START treaty, which could eviscerate our missile defense and further impair our strategic deterrence, than addressing the threat at hand, with its broadening nuclear ambitions and brazen aggression. _Reality is calling, but Mr. Obama refuses to answer, entranced still by his naive nuclear-free-world utopianism and instinctive liberal distrust of America standing up for itself and its allies._The Obama administration has reported that the aircraft carrier USS George Washington and her battle group will proceed to the Yellow Sea west of Korea as a show of force. But this was an exercise planned before the recent North Korean attack and revelation of a new uranium-based nuclear weapons line. As such, it will be seen at best as a modest gesture. A similar show after North Korea sank an allied naval vessel in March had little effect on the regime.
> 
> Mr. Obamas Defense Secretary demonstrated no more resolve. *After the attack, he offered little more than a compliment of his South Korean counterparts restraint shown to date. This translates roughly to Thank you for resisting the urge to defend your nation.*_ (South Korean President Lee has since sacked the defense minister.)_
> 
> FoxNews.com - How to Take Down North Korea, Without Waging War
Click to expand...




North Korea can not justify burning dozens of civilian homes and killing innocents over some imaginary bullets over an imaginary line in the sea.  North Korea chose to perceive aggression where none existed, and now wants to justify it's own brutal murderous provocation. (again)


The USS Washington was not headed over there until after the attack.





> *WHY CONDUCT JOINT EXERCISES?*
> 
> The exercises are held primarily to send a message to North Korea that the U.S. military stands by South Korea. These combined drills are also an overt show of force.
> 
> Washington says large-scale drills, which started after the sinking of the Cheonan warship in March, are designed to send a clear message to North Korea that its aggressive behavior must stop.
> 
> The U.S. and South Korean militaries are vastly better equipped than the North's, and experts say they would quickly win any war. The North's force of over a million troops easily outnumbers the U.S.-South Korean contingent, but its equipment is old and it barely has enough fuel to fly its fighter jets. The exercises also serve to underline the gap in technology.
> Q+A: Why are U.S.-South Korea drills so sensitive? | Reuters






> *More Complications, Added To Complications
> *
> The U.S. has committed the aircraft carrier, USS George Washington, a nuclear powered ship and all accompanying group ships, to war games in the peninsula today. As was expected, the North Koreans have warned the U.S. about following through with the maneuvers, saying that the consequences couldnt be predicted. The U.S. is saying that the maneuvers in the Yellow Sea are defensive in nature.
> 
> *Russians And Chinese In On the Act
> *
> The Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov, and Chinese Foreign Minister, Yang Jiechi both have asked that the North Korean government to work toward easing the tension between the two Korean parties as well as for a resumption of six-party talks. According to an e-mailed statement from the Moscow Foreign Ministry, both Ministries are striving to prevent any further escalation in the area. Meanwhile the war games will go on.
> 
> Korean Tensions Drive Markets, Russians, Chinese, And USS Washington


----------



## Synthaholic

AquaAthena said:


> Mad Scientist said:
> 
> 
> 
> China, Japan and Korea have been fighting for thousands of years. Even unifying Korea won't change that.
> 
> Pull all of our troops from South Korea and let them go at it, winner take all. Then we can sit back and watch China, Japan and Korea fight with each other again. That'll *never* change.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you agree with John Bolton?
> 
> "North Korea threatens all of this. It also has a long history of proliferating weapons to loathsome regimes, and could one day arm Islamist terrorists with nuclear material for the right price.
> 
> "To help the North Korean people end the regime, the U.S. and its democratic allies should consider the following:" ( Six strategies)
> 
> FoxNews.com - How to Take Down North Korea, Without Waging War
Click to expand...


Pick someone else.  John Bolton has no credibility whatsoever, on any subject.


----------



## georgephillip

AquaAthena said:


> Mad Scientist said:
> 
> 
> 
> China, Japan and Korea have been fighting for thousands of years. Even unifying Korea won't change that.
> 
> Pull all of our troops from South Korea and let them go at it, winner take all. Then we can sit back and watch China, Japan and Korea fight with each other again. That'll *never* change.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you agree with John Bolton?
> 
> "North Korea threatens all of this. It also has a long history of proliferating weapons to loathsome regimes, and could one day arm Islamist terrorists with nuclear material for the right price.
> 
> "To help the North Korean people end the regime, the U.S. and its democratic allies should consider the following:" ( Six strategies)
> 
> FoxNews.com - How to Take Down North Korea, Without Waging War
Click to expand...


http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/11/26/north-korea-waging-war/ Link Added-By Intense

"A better assessment and prescription was offered on Fox News this week by former U.S. Ambassador to the U.N. John Bolton.

"On Thursday, he remarked: &#8220;The only way we&#8217;re ever really going to deal with that threat is to eliminate the regime in North Korea and reunite the Korean peninsula&#8230; 

"*I would engage in subversive activities inside North Korea...*

John Bolton is probably the last person to get personally involved in subversive activities outside the American Enterprise Institute.

I don't recall him championing the "sunshine policy" of then SK President Kim Dae-jung which, for a while, looked like it might actually accomplish Mr. Bolton's objectives but in a way that left a united Korea in command of its own destiny and fortunes.

From Honduras in the 80s to Iraq in the 2000s, Bolton has consistently sided with elites whose first goal is to profit from the misery of others. Personally, I think John Bolton and other war mongers represent a much bigger threat to this specie than the Axis of Evil ever did.


----------



## georgephillip

Valerie said:


> SEOUL: Tensions remained high on the Korean Peninsula in the wake of the artillery duel between North and South Korea, amid signs that China was gearing up its diplomacy to try to ease the atmosphere.
> 
> South Korean and US forces Sunday went ahead with major naval manoeuvres in the Yellow Sea, adding to the security jitters in the region after the artillery exchange which left four South Koreans dead on Yeonpyeong Island near the two countries' disputed maritime border.
> 
> Amid the tensions, China sent a diplomat to Seoul to meet with top South Korean leaders, and also on Sunday proposed an emergency meeting of six-party talks in early December.
> 
> Special envoy for Korea Wu Dawei told journalists that Beijing was proposing that chief negotiators from North and South Korea, the US, China, Japan and Russia should meet early December in Beijing.
> 
> 
> 
> China seeks six-party talks on Korea; naval drills start - The Times of India
Click to expand...

Antiwar.com offers an alternative explanation for North Korea's provocation that I haven't read anywhere else:

"Yet a simpler explanation is readily apparent: the (SK) military exercises, code-named 'Hoguk,' involving all four branches of the South Korean armed forces and some 70,000 troops, *simulated an attack on North Korea*, and were meant to provoke the North Koreans, who responded as might be expected. 

"*US troops were supposed to have participated in the exercises*, but apparently the Americans thought better of it and pulled back at the last moment  perhaps because they knew a provocation was in the making."

If there are $2-$6 trillion worth of minerals inside North Korea AND Goldman Sachs is involved in the reunification process necessary to profit from the minerals, all four countries involved in the conflict are likely to be saying one thing in public and doing something far different out of the public's eye.


----------



## Cain

China's pretty depressing right now too me. They are ignoring the fact that North Korea has sunk a South Korean ship, killing 44 sailors, and have bombed a South Korean island killing 2 marines & 2 civilians, wounding several others.

They are acting like it is equally faults for the two parties, but I would put North Korea at fault way before South Korea. South Korea may have made a "threatening" gesture with war games, but it seems, North Korea was the one to openly attack and kill South Koreans.


----------



## georgephillip

There are still unanswered questions about that South Korean ship that was sunk (see Korean Conundrums); however there's also the issue of The North Korean Holocaust that caught me by surprise:

"We regularly use the word 'hell' to describe things in our lives. "We talk about 'examination hell' and we use the term 'hell-way' to describe an overcrowded subway. 

"Yet few people know that they have only to step over the truce line to discover that a real hell exists in which the only purpose is to exterminate human lives. 

"North Korean detention camps are places where once you are taken there, not even your remains ever make it out again. (In North Korea, detention camps are called control camps.) 

"The detention camps are places where lives are drawn out *on 20-30 pieces of corn and salt per meal*. 

"They are places where people slave for 15 hours a day in mines; where guards can shoot inmates dead at their discretion, or beat or starve them; where the bodies of inmates are dragged like animals to be buried. 

"They are places where death is a matter-of-course. It wouldn't seem so wrong if these people had been dragged off because they'd actually committed a crime. 

"Instead, most of the crimes were things like being the child of a landowner, an expatriate from Japan or damaging a picture of Kim Il-sung. And it wasn't just the alleged perpetrator who got dragged off. 

"Even innocent family members right up to the second and third generation, *including children and babies still on the breast*, have been taken to the camps and lost their lives.

"That's because Kim Il-sung and Kim Jung-Il's doctrine to '*terminate three generations of the seed of reactionaries*' is taken literally."

This source appears credible to me.

If what they're claiming is true....?

North Korean Holocaust


----------



## Valerie

> The documents released by Wikileaks provide a fascinating insight into the relationship between two of the world's most secretive nations - China and North Korea.
> 
> Official statements from both countries rarely stray from well-worn diplomatic language and are often hard to interpret.
> 
> But these leaks - using bold and clear language - lay out what appears to be China's growing frustration with North Korea.
> 
> Although China has declined to comment on the content of the reports, it will no doubt be embarrassed by many of the revelations.
> 
> The reports are a series of documents sent between the United States and its foreign embassies.
> 
> In them, China appears to be coming round to the idea that both North and South Korea might one day reunite - under the South's control.



BBC News - Rare insight into secretive China-N Korea ties


----------



## Valerie

Valerie said:


> The documents released by Wikileaks provide a fascinating insight into the relationship between two of the world's most secretive nations - China and North Korea.
> 
> Official statements from both countries rarely stray from well-worn diplomatic language and are often hard to interpret.
> 
> But these leaks - using bold and clear language - lay out what appears to be China's growing frustration with North Korea.
> 
> Although China has declined to comment on the content of the reports, it will no doubt be embarrassed by many of the revelations.
> 
> The reports are a series of documents sent between the United States and its foreign embassies.
> 
> In them, China appears to be coming round to the idea that both North and South Korea might one day reunite - under the South's control.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BBC News - Rare insight into secretive China-N Korea ties
Click to expand...




_'No disturbance'

Beijing has kept its comments on the reports brief.

"China takes note of the relevant reports. We hope the US side will properly handle the issue," said Chinese foreign ministry spokesman Hong Lei at a regular press briefing on Thursday.

"We do not want to see any disturbance to China/US relations," added Mr Hong, ignoring a question about whether there had already been any disturbance because of the leaks.

It was another diplomatic side-step by a well-briefed official speaking in public.

But these leaks show that China's government employees are capable of being far more candid in private.

The Chinese ambassador in Kazakhstan, Cheng Guoping, was apparently relaxed and eager to engage when he spoke to his US counterpart about North Korea and other subjects._


----------



## Valerie

Wow...Here's hoping these leaks won't send the already insane Kim Jong Il completely over the edge!





> The widespread use of computer hacking by China's government is also reported.
> 
> The US government condemned the release of the documents, which number in the hundreds of thousands, saying they put the lives of diplomats and others at risk.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> The leaked US embassy cables also reportedly include accounts of:
> 
> 
> * Iran attempting to adapt North Korean rockets for use as long-range missiles
> 
> BBC News - Wikileaks release of embassy cables reveals US concerns


----------



## daveman

georgephillip said:


> There are still unanswered questions about that South Korean ship that was sunk (see Korean Conundrums); however there's also the issue of The North Korean Holocaust that caught me by surprise:
> 
> "We regularly use the word 'hell' to describe things in our lives. "We talk about 'examination hell' and we use the term 'hell-way' to describe an overcrowded subway.
> 
> "Yet few people know that they have only to step over the truce line to discover that a real hell exists in which the only purpose is to exterminate human lives.
> 
> "North Korean detention camps are places where once you are taken there, not even your remains ever make it out again. (In North Korea, detention camps are called control camps.)
> 
> "The detention camps are places where lives are drawn out *on 20-30 pieces of corn and salt per meal*.
> 
> "They are places where people slave for 15 hours a day in mines; where guards can shoot inmates dead at their discretion, or beat or starve them; where the bodies of inmates are dragged like animals to be buried.
> 
> "They are places where death is a matter-of-course. It wouldn't seem so wrong if these people had been dragged off because they'd actually committed a crime.
> 
> "Instead, most of the crimes were things like being the child of a landowner, an expatriate from Japan or damaging a picture of Kim Il-sung. And it wasn't just the alleged perpetrator who got dragged off.
> 
> "Even innocent family members right up to the second and third generation, *including children and babies still on the breast*, have been taken to the camps and lost their lives.
> 
> "That's because Kim Il-sung and Kim Jung-Il's doctrine to '*terminate three generations of the seed of reactionaries*' is taken literally."
> 
> This source appears credible to me.
> 
> If what they're claiming is true....?
> 
> North Korean Holocaust


People have been telling you your whole life that Communism is evil.

Why didn't you listen?


----------



## georgephillip

Hitler hated communists at least as much as the Gipper.

Was Hitler evil?

Maybe it's authoritarianism that gives life to evil.
Whether in Germany, Russia, Korea or the US?

If your moral code depends on obedience to legitimate authority and not on empathy, it won't matter what your politics are if the right demagogue arrives on the scene at the right time.


----------



## georgephillip

Valerie said:


> Wow...Here's hoping these leaks won't send the already insane Kim Jong Il completely over the edge!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The widespread use of computer hacking by China's government is also reported.
> 
> The US government condemned the release of the documents, which number in the hundreds of thousands, saying they put the lives of diplomats and others at risk.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> The leaked US embassy cables also reportedly include accounts of:
> 
> 
> * Iran attempting to adapt North Korean rockets for use as long-range missiles
> 
> BBC News - Wikileaks release of embassy cables reveals US concerns
Click to expand...

"(S) According to XXXXXXXXXXXX, not only does Kim Jong-il decide to reverse policies on his own, but officials also chart their own course as different factions competing for Kim's attention, making it difficult for Kim to set a firm, clear direction. 

"Wary of China's increasing hold on precious minerals and mining rights in the DPRK, *many North Korean officials oppose mineral concessions as a means to attract Chinese investment.*

If Kim has suffered a recent stroke, the sharks from Bejing to Wall Street will smell the blood in the water and try to position themselves to profit first from Korean reunification.

US embassy cables:


----------



## daveman

georgephillip said:


> Hitler hated communists at least as much as the Gipper.
> 
> Was Hitler evil?
> 
> Maybe it's authoritarianism that gives life to evil.
> Whether in Germany, Russia, Korea or the US?
> 
> If your moral code depends on obedience to legitimate authority and not on empathy, it won't matter what your politics are if the right demagogue arrives on the scene at the right time.



There is no authoritarianism in the United States.  You know how I can tell?  Because you're not in jail.  We don't have political prisoners.  Idiot.

But, hey, way to weasel out of having to take a hard look at your support of Communism.


----------



## georgephillip

For the record, daveman...I don't support Communism or experiments in US (capitalism's) authoritarianism like the Patriot Act. You seem to be implying that an absence of political prisoners ensures the lack of an authoritarian power structure. 

If your definition of "authoritarian" includes absolute obedience to the pecking order found in a hierarchical, top-down private tyranny, US corporations would seem to qualify.

Not to mention elements of the USAF.

You may also be incorrect when you claim the US has no political prisoner.

Lt. Colonel Richard Taus would likely claim otherwise:

"Former FBI Special Agent Richard Taus, a Lt. Col. in National Guard, highly decorated Vietnam Helicopter Pilot. 

"Taus worked under FBI Supervisory Agent Lindley DeVecchio in the New York office, and found himself being pulled off investigations that (a) focused on criminal activities of the CIA, including a part of *Oliver North's Enterprise; the secret funding and arming of Iraq during the Reagan-Bush* administrations, and other crimes. 

"When FBI supervisors, including DeVecchio repeatedly blocked reporting of these criminal activities, *Taus reported the matters to several members of Congress*&#59450;who, as usual, covered up for the matters. 

"Immediately thereafter FBI officials fabricated charges against Taus and he was arrested. 

"State prosecutors then took over, charged him with other offenses, and Taus was sentenced to *80 years in prison*. 

"His imprisonment protected the corrupt activities of White House officials and the CIA. 

"Also, murders perpetrated by the New York Mafia."

Political Prisoners...

Whatever the full accounting of Richard Taus's case would reveal, I hope you aren't naive enough to believe an Empire as corrupt as the USA could come into being or long survive without political prisoners.

And worse.


----------



## daveman

Given the Left's propensity to label criminals as "political prisoners" (Mumia), I'm not going to take your word that Taus is indeed a political prisoner.


----------



## georgephillip

Purely theoretically...

If you came upon an on-duty uniformed police officer attempting to commit murder (on your brother?) and the only way of preventing the crime was killing the cop, what's your call?


----------



## daveman

Not interested in your silly games.


----------



## georgephillip

Maybe the North Koreans had a similar reaction to "Hokguk"?

"...the military exercises, code-named 'Hoguk,' involving all four branches of the South Korean armed forces and some 70,000 troops, *simulated an attack on North Korea*, and were meant to *provoke* the North Koreans, who responded as might be expected."

Any thoughts on which bed "the Gipper" would've hid under?

Korean Conundrum:


----------

