# Greatest of all time: Position by Position



## Truthspeaker (Sep 17, 2009)

1. Rickey Henderson-rf:  *Best Season in Prime:* .325 avg, .439 obp, 119 runs, 65 steals, .577 slg%, 61 rbi, 28 hr. 1 career gold glove

2.Pete Rose-2b: .348 avg, .428 obp, 88 bb, 120 runs, 82 rbi, 218 h, .512 slg%, 11 triples,   16 hrs, 2 gold gloves

3. Barry Bonds-lf: .362avg, .609 obp, only 373 ab, 45 hr, .812 slg%, 101 rbi, only 41k's, 232 bb's(120 int), 129 runs, 8 gold gloves, 514 career steals.

4. Babe Ruth-dh: .378 avg, .846 slg%, .512 obp, 145 bb, only 81 k's, 171 rbi, 59 hr's, 16 triples, 17 steals, 44 2b's, 204 hits, 177 runs, fantastic pitcher too. gold gloves not in existence.

5. Lou Gherig-1b: .373 avg, 175 rbi, 47 hr's, .765 slg%, .474 obp, 18 triples, 52 2b's, 149 runs, 109 bb's, 10 steals, 218 hits, only 84 k's. gold glove not in existence

6. Josh Gibson-c concrete stats unavailable. Career lifetime average between .354 and .387. Over 800 lifetime homers. Rocket arm.

7. Willie Mays-cf: .319 avg, 51 hr's, .400 obp, 127 rbi, 13 triples, 24 steals, .659 slg%, 123 runs, 185 hits. 11 time gold glove winner.

8. Hack Wilson-3b: 5'2" tall, 210 lbs,  size 7 1/2 shoe, 56 hr's, 191 rbi(mlb record), .356 avg, .454 obp, 105 bb, 146 runs, .723 slg%, 208 hits, 6 triples(that would be fun to watch the midget fire hydrant leg out a triple)

9. Omar Vizquel: .333 avg, 112 runs, 36 2b's, 191 hits, 66 rbi, 42 steals, 11 gold gloves.

On the mound: 

Christy Matthewson: 31-9(all wins in starts), 1.28 era(how did he lose 9 times?), .775 winning %, 8 shutouts, 338 ip just 64 walks, 32 cg, 37 starts(2 losses in relief. oh, that's how), only 4 hr's allowed, 206 k's, 0.837 whip, 1 bb/9innings, 0.1 hr/9innings, 6.6 h/9innings, 6k/1bb ratio.

This guy was insane!



Who can come with a team that can hang for me in 1 single game. By the way Babe Ruth would be my closer if needed. but I don't think I need one for "Matty".


----------



## Xenophon (Sep 17, 2009)

It's a nice try, but no way.

First, Ruth had a rocket arm and belongs in RF, Henderson was an assclown on defense.

Next, Hack Wilson never played third base.

Outside of gherig, the infiled is not so hot.

I'd have to reseach before posting more on this.


----------



## Truthspeaker (Sep 17, 2009)

Xenophon said:


> It's a nice try, but no way.
> 
> First, Ruth had a rocket arm and belongs in RF, Henderson was an assclown on defense.
> 
> ...



You know what, I stand corrected about Hack. I thought he was a 3rd baseman. In that case. I put him in the dh spot and move the Babe to right, Barry to left, and Rickey would become the odd man out because he doesn't play 3rd, who is not an "ass clown" on defense if he won a gold glove. 

That would open up a spot for my second favorite 3rd baseman of all time Mike*Jack* Schmidt.
Best Year: .286, 48 jacks, 121 rbi, 104 runs, .624 slg%, 10 gold gloves gives him the slight edge of Alex Rodriguez.( I know Alex is a better hitter by a little, but with this lineup I take a little more defense with such great pitching.)

best season.


----------



## Xenophon (Sep 17, 2009)

You need to research a lot of players.

Go here:

Baseball-Reference.com - Major League Baseball Statistics and History

Look up 'Honus Wagner' to see what a HoF SS is.

Also, look up Micky Mantle's 1956 stats, they blow away Willie Mays, Mantle hit 353 with 52 HR that year.

Look up ted wiliams, the guy hit .406 one year.

Josh Gibson never played a game vs the MLB players outside of barnstorming, you can't say he's better then guys like Bill Dicky & Yogi Berra.


----------



## Article 15 (Sep 17, 2009)

Barry Bonds isn't even in Ted Williams' league.


----------



## Xenophon (Sep 17, 2009)

Article 15 said:


> Barry Bonds isn't even in Ted Williams' league.


I'd have 41 Ted in left, 56 Micky in Center and 27 Ruth in right.


----------



## Truthspeaker (Sep 17, 2009)

> Look up 'Honus Wagner' to see what a HoF SS is.



Ah at last some debate!! Honus Wagner and I are no strangers. Truly the best hitting shortstop of all time. However when I'm putting together such a team, I realize there is more to it than just batting stats. Omar Vizquel is the greatest defensive shortstop of all time and more than capable at the plate(all time leader in hits by a shortstop.see stats). Considering Matty is on the mound, there will be a lot of ground balls. also I don't know why you could possibly be balking at my selection of rose. The guy had a 44 game hitstreak immediately followed by 22 game hitstreak the very next game. Charlie Hustle must be on the team. Therefore he must be at second base, a slight favorite to Rogers Hornsby.



> Also, look up Micky Mantle's 1956 stats, they blow away Willie Mays, Mantle hit 353 with 52 HR that year.



I know Mickey had more power than Willie, but I'm talking the whole package. The Dimaggio, Mays, Mantle debate has been going on for decades. Each are pretty much equal to the other but the reason why I choose Willie is for his slightly superior range and arm in the outfield. But don't act like he's chopped liver, meat! 



> Look up ted wiliams, the guy hit .406 one year.


A truly deserving candidate. But don't act like I never heard of the guy for crying out loud! It's just that somebody's gotta be snubbed. Put your team together and let's compare position by position. Ted didn't drive in enough runs for me at the very end and is not the defender I'm looking for. tough spot for a manager when you have to snub Ted.



> Josh Gibson never played a game vs the MLB players outside of barnstorming, you can't say he's better then guys like Bill Bicky & Yogi Berra.



This is absurd!
No Catcher in the history of the game could ever be half the hitter Gibson was. You know better than to say that knowing players are equal. Especially since all the barnstorming games against themajor leagues were heavily dominated by the negro leaguers. If you need me to I can prove it in the matchup stats.


----------



## Truthspeaker (Sep 17, 2009)

Article 15 said:


> Barry Bonds isn't even in Ted Williams' league.



Numbers don't lie. Ted is a step below Bonds. The only thing Ted has on him is batting average. It stops there. You can't even say that he drove in more runs(he did) because he consistently would get about 150-200 more at bats than Bond's. This one is not close. Don't let your dislike of him cloud your judgment. I don't like him either, but don't be a fool.


----------



## Truthspeaker (Sep 17, 2009)

Xenophon said:


> Article 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Barry Bonds isn't even in Ted Williams' league.
> ...



Give me the rest of your team


----------



## Article 15 (Sep 17, 2009)

Snub Ted, arguably the greatest hitter of all time, for the guy who's skull continued to grow into his early 40s.

Yeah ...


----------



## Article 15 (Sep 17, 2009)

Truthspeaker said:


> Article 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Barry Bonds isn't even in Ted Williams' league.
> ...



Nothing is clouding my judgement.

You show your ignorance by calling me a fool for saying Bonds isn't in Ted Williams' league.


----------



## Xenophon (Sep 17, 2009)

Truthspeaker said:


> This is absurd!
> No Catcher in the history of the game could ever be half the hitter Gibson was. You know better than to say that knowing players are equal. Especially since all the barnstorming games against themajor leagues were heavily dominated by the negro leaguers. If you need me to I can prove it in the matchup stats.


You can argue the other stuff so i will skip it.

What you just posted is ludicrous.

Berra won THREE MVP awards.

THREE.

Dickey won two of them.

The idea in barnstorming was to give the locals a thrill, it was not a 'real' game nor a stat.

Gibson has no place being listed as the 'greatest' at anything except where he played, the negro leagues.

The proof is when the leagues integrated the black players were not superior to the white ones.

in 1936 Bill Dickey hit .362 with 22 HR with 107 RBIs and only struck out 16 times.


----------



## Cold Fusion38 (Sep 17, 2009)

I know it's the wrong sport but I would say Jerry Rice WR SF 49ers.


----------



## rightwinger (Sep 17, 2009)

Xenophon said:


> Truthspeaker said:
> 
> 
> > This is absurd!
> ...



Ridiculous....did you see the disparity between the National League and the American League in the 60's and 70s?  The National League fully integrated while the American League hired tokens on each team.

Bill Dickey was not in Josh Gibsons league by anyones observation. Gibson had emense power and hit for average.

Satchel Paige was perhaps the greatest pitcher ever


----------



## Paulie (Sep 17, 2009)

How does Bonds get to be considered better than just about ANYONE these days?

Unless someone can prove that the great throwback players like Ted were shooting roids into their ass, Bonds loses all credibility when put up against them.

Truth, you're telling people not to let something cloud their judgement, meanwhile you're obviously letting the fact that Bonds was on your team for most of his career cloud YOURS.


----------



## Paulie (Sep 17, 2009)

I'll be back with my list later.

I'd think the list should take into consideration offense AND defense.  The all-time team should consist of well-rounded players.


----------



## CrusaderFrank (Sep 17, 2009)

Mush as it pains me to admit it, Pedro Martinez in his prime with Boston is at least on par and probably better than Bob Gibson. In the most degenerate "let 'eh hit mo' homers than ever before and a 5.0 ERA is average" system Pedro had a consistent ERA sub 2. 

It's like Gretzky in 81


----------



## Xenophon (Sep 17, 2009)

rightwinger said:


> Ridiculous....did you see the disparity between the National League and the American League in the 60's and 70s?  The National League fully integrated while the American League hired tokens on each team.


Yes you are rediculous, they integrated in 1947, and since you didn't pay attaention, men like Mike Schmidt and pete Rose played in the 60s & 70s.



> Bill Dickey was not in Josh Gibsons league by anyones observation. Gibson had emense power and hit for average.


I sugest you learn about baseball before saying something so stupid.

You just proclaimed a hallof famer is 'not in the league' with a player who NEVER played a major league game.



> Satchel Paige was perhaps the greatest pitcher ever


In the negro leagues.

Not in the major leagues.


----------



## Article 15 (Sep 17, 2009)

CrusaderFrank said:


> Mush as it pains me to admit it, Pedro Martinez in his prime with Boston is at least on par and probably better than Bob Gibson. In the most degenerate "let 'eh hit mo' homers than ever before and a 5.0 ERA is average" system Pedro had a consistent ERA sub 2.
> 
> It's like Gretzky in 81



When you take into consideration the mound being lowered, the DH rule, and the rampid steroid use going on during Pedro's prime years he may very well be the best ever.


----------



## Xenophon (Sep 17, 2009)

Article 15 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> > Mush as it pains me to admit it, Pedro Martinez in his prime with Boston is at least on par and probably better than Bob Gibson. In the most degenerate "let 'eh hit mo' homers than ever before and a 5.0 ERA is average" system Pedro had a consistent ERA sub 2.
> ...


Longivity is an issue with him.

I would not include him in the best ever, or even the top ten.


----------



## Article 15 (Sep 17, 2009)

Xenophon said:


> Article 15 said:
> 
> 
> > CrusaderFrank said:
> ...




Allow me to ammend that then.  At his peak he may have been the best ever though not in terms of complete body of work.


----------



## Xenophon (Sep 18, 2009)

There is also the possibility Pedro was juicing himself, ala Clemens.


----------



## elvis (Sep 18, 2009)

Article 15 said:


> Barry Bonds isn't even in Ted Williams' league.



He couldn't carry Ted's jock strap without being juiced.


----------



## Xenophon (Sep 18, 2009)

Since it still annoys me that someone tried to claim one of the all time major league greats is 'not in the same league' with a guy who never played in the majors, Bill Dickey's stats:

Bill Dickey Statistics and History - Baseball-Reference.com

He was right, Gibson and him are not in the same league, Dickey, a 7 time WS champ and 11 time allstar is light years ahead of ol Josh.


----------



## Article 15 (Sep 18, 2009)

Xenophon said:


> There is also the possibility Pedro was juicing himself, ala Clemens.



**plugs ears**
LALALALALALALALA I can't hear you!


----------



## Article 15 (Sep 18, 2009)

Did anyone show my boy Sandy Koufax some love?


----------



## Xenophon (Sep 18, 2009)

I haven't gotten in to the pitchers yet, for one seaon there are a lot of good picks.


----------



## Fatality (Sep 18, 2009)

will the thrill at first

Will Clark Statistics and History - Baseball-Reference.com

because i can


----------



## Truthspeaker (Sep 18, 2009)

Article 15 said:


> Snub Ted, arguably the greatest hitter of all time, for the guy who's skull continued to grow into his early 40s.
> 
> Yeah ...



numbers don't lie.


----------



## xotoxi (Sep 18, 2009)

Truthspeaker said:


> 6. Josh Gibson-c concrete stats unavailable. Career lifetime average between .354 and .387. Over 800 lifetime homers. Rocket arm.


 
Better than Johnny Bench?  BA .567, 1,567 HR, 10,355 SB

Better than Carlton Fisk?  BA .897, 78,445 HR, 100,000,001 SB


----------



## Oddball (Sep 18, 2009)

I got Mays, Williams and Frank Robinson in the outfield.....With Clemente in reserve.


----------



## CrusaderFrank (Sep 18, 2009)

Article 15 said:


> Snub Ted, arguably the greatest hitter of all time, for the guy who's skull continued to grow into his early 40s.
> 
> Yeah ...



And he spent 5 of his prime years in the military.

My Dad was a NY Giant fan but he never missed a chance to go to Yankee Stadium when the Sox were there with Ted Williams

In the mid-70, his daughter, my sister would hang out in Yankee Stadium when the Sox were in wearing a Custom T Shirt that said:

Fisk Eats Rice


----------



## Truthspeaker (Sep 18, 2009)

Article 15 said:


> Truthspeaker said:
> 
> 
> > Article 15 said:
> ...



Your Red Sox rabies is clouding your judgment. Let's compare the two,

Bonds best season avg. .370, *Ted's best season avg .406*

*Bond's best season HR 73(ML Record)*; Ted's best season HR 43(only once did he ever top 40. though he may have done it once or twice more during his 4 year absence in the military. Bonds did it 8 times.)

*Bond best RBI total 137(in just 476 ab); *Ted's best RBI total 159(in 566 ab)
which would be 3.47 ab per rbi, while ted's avg is 3.56 ab per rbi. Close but no cigar.

Bonds best run total 129 , *Williams best run total 150*

Bond's best triples total 9, *Williams best triples total 14*

Bond best doules total 38, *Williams best doubles total 44*

*Bond's best walks total 232(ML Record)*, Williams best walks total 162

*Bonds best slugging % .863(ML Record), *Ted Williams best slugging %.735

*Bonds best obp ina full season .609(ML Record), *Ted's best obp .551(amazing but not close to Bonds)

*Bond's best steals total 52,* Ted's best steals total 4

*Bond's gold gloves 8*, Ted's gold gloves 0

*Bond's MVP's 7(ML Record)*, Ted's MVP's 2( Though he may have earned one 1 or two more during the war years.)

The fact is clear Bonds is a better player as a whole because in the major categories provided Bonds has the edge 8 to 4. Williams is a better avg hitter, and slightly better with doubles, triples and runs.

Bonds also has the major league record for homeruns in a world series. Notice all the records Bonds set?

If Ted Williams is supposed to be "the greatest hitter of all time", then why doesn't he own even 1 single record of any kind? That's because he played in Boston and it's all the beantowners squawking their bias.

And don't give me the tired squealing about steroids. I think we all realize it was and still is a level playing field with everybody being on the stuff.

Truth-speaker, I am.


----------



## Oddball (Sep 18, 2009)

Bonds also cheated.


----------



## Truthspeaker (Sep 18, 2009)

> What you just posted is ludicrous.
> 
> Berra won THREE MVP awards.
> 
> ...



Gibson wasn't given a chance. But he was acknowledged by all his peers including white players. Mantle came close to hitting a ball out of old Yankee stadium. Gibson actually is on record for doing it.



> The idea in barnstorming was to give the locals a thrill, it was not a 'real' game nor a stat


.
You can say that, but you don't understand the mindset of white people back then. They were elitists. The last thing they wanted to do was lose to the black guys. They played those games hard. Don't let the word barnstorming fool you. The game itself is designed to give fans a thrill. That's the point of a spectator sport. So what's the difference?



> Gibson has no place being listed as the 'greatest' at anything except where he played, the negro leagues.



I guess we'll never know but from all eyewitness accounts both white and black from his time, they all said he was the greatest catcher of all time. When the general population goes on record and in print as labeling him "the black Babe Ruth", there has to be some truth to it. Do you need quotes?



> The proof is when the leagues integrated the black players were not superior to the white ones.


That's a dumb statement. They were all immediately competetive. Jackie Robinson was the first modern black player in the league but quite quickly he won an MVP. That tells you they're all equal. Barry Bonds is black and holds the record for the most mvp's. Please don't try and say white players were better than blacks or vice versa, they were just separated. Now their mingled and you can see the competetive equality.



> in 1936 Bill Dickey hit .362 with 22 HR with 107 RBIs and only struck out 16 times.]


It's all relative, Gibson's lifetime .avg at the worst was .356 with a few times over .400. He is credited with topping 70 homers 3 times and averaged 160 rbis. Don't come at Gibson with Bill Dickey. An exceptional player, but not in the all time greatest 9.


----------



## Truthspeaker (Sep 18, 2009)

Cold Fusion38 said:


> I know it's the wrong sport but I would say Jerry Rice WR SF 49ers.



Please. make a seperate thread.


----------



## Truthspeaker (Sep 18, 2009)

Paulie said:


> How does Bonds get to be considered better than just about ANYONE these days?
> 
> Unless someone can prove that the great throwback players like Ted were shooting roids into their ass, Bonds loses all credibility when put up against them.
> 
> Truth, you're telling people not to let something cloud their judgement, meanwhile you're obviously letting the fact that Bonds was on your team for most of his career cloud YOURS.



Paulie numbers don't lie. If Bond's was the only one doing the roids you would have a point. But we all know now that everyone was guilty, especially the greats of our time. Whatever distance Bonds gained on his fly balls was negated by the pitchers park he played in. Many of his homers challenging the deepest part of the yard. Ted Williams may not have been on roids but he played in a homerdome in boston and still only topped 40 homers once in his career. It's not close.


----------



## Truthspeaker (Sep 18, 2009)

Paulie said:


> I'll be back with my list later.
> 
> I'd think the list should take into consideration offense AND defense.  The all-time team should consist of well-rounded players.



that's why i posted my stats for defense on my first post. That's why I have gold glovers at every position.


----------



## Truthspeaker (Sep 18, 2009)

CrusaderFrank said:


> Mush as it pains me to admit it, Pedro Martinez in his prime with Boston is at least on par and probably better than Bob Gibson. In the most degenerate "let 'eh hit mo' homers than ever before and a 5.0 ERA is average" system Pedro had a consistent ERA sub 2.
> 
> It's like Gretzky in 81



It's a worthy comparison, but the numbers are still heavily in Gibsons favor. We would have to see what pedro would do with skinnier hitters and a mound 12 inches higher. I don't, however, think pedro could throw as hard as Gibson. And neither of them is the equal of Christy Matthewson.


----------



## Oddball (Sep 18, 2009)

Truthspeaker said:


> Paulie said:
> 
> 
> > How does Bonds get to be considered better than just about ANYONE these days?
> ...


Of course, Williams spending five of his most potentially productive years serving his country has nothing to do with anything here.

And the juice didn't make it onto the scene until the late '70s to early '80s...Well after Williams was out of the game.

Back in his day, a lot of the players were into the amphetamines.


----------



## Truthspeaker (Sep 18, 2009)

elvis3577 said:


> Article 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Barry Bonds isn't even in Ted Williams' league.
> ...



numbers don't lie. He competed against juiced players and hit in a pitchers park. It all evens out.


----------



## Truthspeaker (Sep 18, 2009)

Article 15 said:


> Did anyone show my boy Sandy Koufax some love?



I'm still waiting for someone to come with their complete lineup to combat mine. Sandy will probably be on somebody's list.


----------



## Truthspeaker (Sep 18, 2009)

Fatality said:


> will the thrill at first
> 
> Will Clark Statistics and History - Baseball-Reference.com
> 
> because i can



I as a Giants fan can understand. But the Thrill at his best doesn't crack the top 20 at his position. You should start a thread about a lineup of your favorite players, not the best. Matt Williams and Will Clark would be on my list.


----------



## RadiomanATL (Sep 18, 2009)

> Greatest of all time: Position by Position



hmmmmm....

1. missionary. i know it's old fashioned, but really its the easiest and its the way our bodies were designed.

2. female superior. let her do the work sometimes i say. womens lib and all that.

3. doggy. sometimes a little kinky is all you really need.


----------



## RadiomanATL (Sep 18, 2009)

oh shit. 

you meant sports players and their positions.


well i got nuthin then.


----------



## Truthspeaker (Sep 18, 2009)

xotoxi said:


> Truthspeaker said:
> 
> 
> > 6. Josh Gibson-c concrete stats unavailable. Career lifetime average between .354 and .387. Over 800 lifetime homers. Rocket arm.
> ...



I see you are exaggerating a bit. Oh wait...I just got it. You think others are exaggerating about Gibson. Well what do the white players of his day say about Gibson?

"There is a catcher that any big league club would love. His name is Gibson...he can do everything. He hits the ball a mile. And he catchs so easy he might as well be in a rocking chair. Throws like a rifle. Too bad this Gibson is a colored fellow." - Walter Johnson (Washington Senators pitcher), on Josh Gibson, catcher for the Kansas City Monarchs


----------



## Truthspeaker (Sep 18, 2009)

Dude said:


> I got Mays, Williams and Frank Robinson in the outfield.....With Clemente in reserve.



Gimme your whole team


----------



## Truthspeaker (Sep 18, 2009)

Dude said:


> Bonds also cheated.



No, he was just keeping up with the joneses, mcgwireses, sosas, clemenses, pettites, ramirezes etc, right down to the santangelos.


----------



## Truthspeaker (Sep 18, 2009)

Dude said:


> Truthspeaker said:
> 
> 
> > Paulie said:
> ...



Dude, I posted the best years of each players career and even took into consideration the war years lost to Williams. did you see that? No doubt Williams was probably a better guy but Williams came back and never missed a step. He continued to get better for some time after the war. His best still doesn't compare to Bond's best. Plus Williams never set any records, career or single season. Though his most impressive stat to me was striking out just 21 times the year he hit .406


----------



## Truthspeaker (Sep 18, 2009)

RadiomanATL said:


> > Greatest of all time: Position by Position
> 
> 
> 
> ...



reverse that order, but off topic. Please make a separate thread.


----------



## Xenophon (Sep 18, 2009)

Truthspeaker said:


> Gibson wasn't given a chance.


Which the entire point.

People tend to give far to much credit to players who were denied playing in the big leagues.

He probaly would have been a star player, but best ever?

We will never no, its an insult to the guys who played in the majors to say someone who didn't play in them would have topped them.

Also, barnstorming is NOT a valid means to compare, the ML players are on recond in their later years saying they always took it easy in such things since it was designed to highlight locals.

If you are going to include any kind of baseball, you might as well include Sadaharu Oh, who hit more HR then anybody, including Bonds.


----------



## Oddball (Sep 18, 2009)

Truthspeaker said:


> Dude, I posted the best years of each players career and even took into consideration the war years lost to Williams. did you see that? No doubt Williams was probably a better guy but Williams came back and never missed a step. He continued to get better for some time after the war. His best still doesn't compare to Bond's best. Plus Williams never set any records, career or single season. Though his most impressive stat to me was striking out just 21 times the year he hit .406


How many triple crowns did juice boy earn?


----------



## Xenophon (Sep 18, 2009)

Ted Williams is the greatest left handed hitter of all time.

Bonds cannot shine his shoes, Bonds is a massive cheat who's claim to fame is a lot of HR and a mishapen head, as opposed to Ted who mearly had his frozen.


----------



## Gunny (Sep 18, 2009)

Truthspeaker said:


> Article 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Barry Bonds isn't even in Ted Williams' league.
> ...



Perhaps, but then, Ted wasn't slamming "juice" either.  That would make any argument you have irrelevant because we don't know two things:  how Bonds would do without Dianabol, and how Williams would do with it.  

My vote is that a known 'roid freak is automatically disqualified because you're comparing him to people who had to get by on their OWN talent, not the chemist's.


----------



## Gunny (Sep 18, 2009)

Truthspeaker said:


> Article 15 said:
> 
> 
> > Snub Ted, arguably the greatest hitter of all time, for the guy who's skull continued to grow into his early 40s.
> ...



Neither do steroid tests.


----------



## CrusaderFrank (Sep 18, 2009)

Bonds is a fucking joke. It's not enough they juiced up the ball and made pitchers practically throw underhand, he had to juice himself up.

Fuck him. His "records" don't mean crap


----------



## Oddball (Sep 18, 2009)

My pitchers:

Warren Spahn
Dizzy Dean
Cy Young
Satchel Paige 
Nolan Ryan


----------



## CrusaderFrank (Sep 18, 2009)

1B: Lou Gehrig
2B: Nellie Fox
3B: Brooks Robinson
SS: Derek Jeter
Outfield: Mays, Ruth, Williams, Mantle, DiMaggio, Cobb and Dave Parker for defense (impossible to pick only 3)
Catcher: Johnny Bench

Pitchers.

Bob Gibson
Sandy Koufax
Nolan Ryan
Pedro Martinez

Relief: Mariano Rivera


----------



## rightwinger (Sep 18, 2009)

Dude said:


> My pitchers:
> 
> Warren Spahn
> Dizzy Dean
> ...



I'm OK with every pitcher except for Ryan. Ryan was a statistical freak. He was barely over .500 has a pitcher, had two twenty game seasons (and lost 16 games in those seasons) and never won the Cy Young.

Pitchers better than Nolan Ryan
Bob Gibson
Tom Seaver
Juan Marichal
Steve Carlton
Greg Maddox
Randy Johnson
Sandy Koufax
Pedro Martinez

Old School Pitchers better than Ryan
Christy Mathewson
Walter Johnson
Grover Alexander


----------



## Truthspeaker (Sep 18, 2009)

Xenophon said:


> Truthspeaker said:
> 
> 
> > Gibson wasn't given a chance.
> ...


----------



## Oddball (Sep 18, 2009)

rightwinger said:


> Dude said:
> 
> 
> > My pitchers:
> ...


He also played for some godawful Angels and Astros teams, who gave him next to zero run support.

Where are his stats viz. ERA, K, BB, K/BB??


----------



## Truthspeaker (Sep 18, 2009)

Xenophon said:


> Truthspeaker said:
> 
> 
> > Gibson wasn't given a chance.
> ...



Plus Sadaharu Oh in '66 '68 and '74 played a total of 54 games versus major league pitching in the Giants, Yankees and Dodgers exclusively. His stats?

182 ABs, 19 HR's(9.59 ab/hr), .352 avg, 64 hits, 11 doubles, 46 rbi (3.96 ab/rbi), 52 walks!(meaning they feared his ass), .700 slg%, 

It's time to put the myth to bed that negro leaguers and japanese leaguers were not major league quality.  That's why Japan keeps kicking our ass in the WBC!


----------



## Truthspeaker (Sep 18, 2009)

Dude said:


> Truthspeaker said:
> 
> 
> > Dude, I posted the best years of each players career and even took into consideration the war years lost to Williams. did you see that? No doubt Williams was probably a better guy but Williams came back and never missed a step. He continued to get better for some time after the war. His best still doesn't compare to Bond's best. Plus Williams never set any records, career or single season. Though his most impressive stat to me was striking out just 21 times the year he hit .406
> ...



Is that all you got? Why didn't williams have more than 1 40 homer season? He MIGHT have had his 2nd and 3rd during the war years but he had 21 other seasons to do it and he didn't. That's a pretty weak argument.


----------



## Truthspeaker (Sep 18, 2009)

Xenophon said:


> Ted Williams is the greatest left handed hitter of all time.
> 
> Bonds cannot shine his shoes, Bonds is a massive cheat who's claim to fame is a lot of HR and a mishapen head, as opposed to Ted who mearly had his frozen.



numbers don't lie and your bias for old Ted is inexcusable. He didn't dominate his era like Bonds dominated his. 
Numbers don't


----------



## Truthspeaker (Sep 18, 2009)

Gunny said:


> Truthspeaker said:
> 
> 
> > Article 15 said:
> ...




Anyone who knows baseball in the remotest knows that Barry had the talent anyway. He was keeping up with the rest of the league. Stop villainizing him for something everyone was doing. He was an asshole, but he was better than all the rest. Get over your personal dislike for him and realize that the numbers don't 

Ted Williams played in a homerdome all his career. If Bonds' distances were affected by the juice, the pitchers parks at AT&T and Candlestick as well as old three rivers, made up the distance gap. The fact is Bonds swung at HIS pitches. Steroid didn't help him hit the fat part of the bat. His homers were so far over the fence that if you take the extra distance off(10 feet at the most) he still breaks Aaron's record.

Add to the fact that the best pitchers in the game were juicers too and he raked everybody.


----------



## Oddball (Sep 18, 2009)

Truthspeaker said:


> Dude said:
> 
> 
> > Truthspeaker said:
> ...


Williams didn't cheat...Bonds did.


----------



## rightwinger (Sep 18, 2009)

Dude said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Dude said:
> ...



Ryan was his own worst enemy during those years. His walks per nine innings contributed to his losses. Walter Johnson played for the Washington Senators, Steve Carlton won 27 games for a last place Phillies team.

Ryan never had a single season in 20+ years in the majors where he was the best Pitcher in baseball. He was a killer strikeout pitcher but strikeouts count the same as ground balls. Give me Greg Maddox any day. As a strikeout pitcher I'd take Randy Johnson over Ryan.


----------



## Truthspeaker (Sep 18, 2009)

CrusaderFrank said:


> Bonds is a fucking joke. It's not enough they juiced up the ball and made pitchers practically throw underhand, he had to juice himself up.
> 
> Fuck him. His "records" don't mean crap



Probably one of the funniest pictures I've ever seen.

Now I'm not the biggest Bond's fan. I don't want to turn this into a steroid thread either, I picked Bonds in my outfield for my reasons. Who is your ultimate 9?


----------



## Truthspeaker (Sep 18, 2009)

Dude said:


> My pitchers:
> 
> Warren Spahn
> Dizzy Dean
> ...



great rotation, how about your 9?


----------



## Truthspeaker (Sep 18, 2009)

CrusaderFrank said:


> 1B: Lou Gehrig
> 2B: Nellie Fox
> 3B: Brooks Robinson
> SS: Derek Jeter
> ...



Great team, but stop being such a communist! You have to snub 4 of those outfielders. Have some balls!


----------



## CrusaderFrank (Sep 18, 2009)

Truthspeaker said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> > Bonds is a fucking joke. It's not enough they juiced up the ball and made pitchers practically throw underhand, he had to juice himself up.
> ...



1B: Lou Gehrig
2B: Nellie Fox
3B: Brooks Robinson
SS: Derek Jeter

Outfield: Mays, Ruth, Williams

Catcher: Johnny Bench

Pitchers.

Bob Gibson
Sandy Koufax
Nolan Ryan
Pedro Martinez

Relief: Mariano Rivera


----------



## Truthspeaker (Sep 18, 2009)

rightwinger said:


> Dude said:
> 
> 
> > My pitchers:
> ...


----------



## Truthspeaker (Sep 18, 2009)

Dude said:


> Truthspeaker said:
> 
> 
> > Dude said:
> ...



Whatever, if everyone's doing it, it's a level playing field. Bonds was better against his peers than Williams was against his.


----------



## Fatality (Sep 18, 2009)

pitcher
don drysdale
sandy kofax
bob gibson
nolan ryan


1st
steve garvey
maybe albert puljols, still active and putting up numbers
would have to look at players, clark was great but streaky


2nd
steve sax
ryn sandberg


----------



## Fatality (Sep 18, 2009)

Dude said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Dude said:
> ...



ryan was a dominate force and had longevity dominating up to his retirement


----------



## Fatality (Sep 18, 2009)

Truthspeaker said:


> Dude said:
> 
> 
> > Truthspeaker said:
> ...



the dope didnt give bonds his talent, he was a solid player before the dope. the drugs turned warning track fly balls into home runs and his towering shots became bay bound and wet. he should have an asterix next to his name, but again the drugs didnt give him his talent, just made an already talented guy a bit stronger.


----------



## Gunny (Sep 18, 2009)

Truthspeaker said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> > Truthspeaker said:
> ...



Look, junior, play your little "anyone who knows baseball in the remotest" crap on someone else.  While you have spent your life running your flap and flattening your ass on a sofa, I've been out playing them.  

You are full of shit, and projecting.  I didn't say steroids had a damned thing to do with his hitting technique, now did I?  Hint:  This is where you shake your headfrom side to side and say, "Why no,  Gunny, you didn't."

The fact is, the steroids probably put more those homeruns over the fence than skill since no matter how much skill you have, it cannot replace the power required and steroids equal power.  Too simple, huh?

Please name which pitchers were "juicers" and provide factual data to support your claim.  I am aware of only one that used them, and he was using them under direction of a physician for rehab.  Guess what you get if you contract bronchitis?  You guess it ... steroids.  

Steroids have a legitimate, medical purpose.  Not to be confused with athletes that use them to cheat.  

Second, you can't compare players of different eras because they don't play the same game.  The 1970 Dallas Cowboys or 1975 Pittsburgh Steelers would put any team on th efield today collectively into the hospital.  Game over.  Babe Ruth and Lou Gherig played without webbing in their gloves.  They had to have LOTS more skill than these people now who have replaced skill with webbing. 

Bonds is a cheater.  He is not playing to best of HIS ability.  He's using chemicals to give him an edge over those that don't.  

Your whole argument here is full of shit.  Bonds should be getting the treatment Pete Rose has gotten.  He's every bit as much if not more a cheater.


----------



## Gunny (Sep 18, 2009)

Dude said:


> Truthspeaker said:
> 
> 
> > Dude said:
> ...



That just about covers it.


----------



## Truthspeaker (Sep 18, 2009)

Gunny said:


> Truthspeaker said:
> 
> 
> > Gunny said:
> ...


----------



## rightwinger (Sep 18, 2009)

Truthspeaker said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Dude said:
> ...


----------



## Gunny (Sep 18, 2009)

Truthspeaker said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> > Truthspeaker said:
> ...


----------



## JakeStarkey (Sep 18, 2009)

Ryan was a great pitcher.  When Koufax developed command with control, he became a pitcher over a four year period that compared with Christy Mathewson, Warren Sphann, and Lefty Grove.  If Ryan had command to go with control as good as Koufax, he would have struck out 7,000 batters and won 500 games.  Nolan was great, Sandy was better.


----------



## rightwinger (Sep 18, 2009)

JakeStarkey said:


> Ryan was a great pitcher.  When Koufax developed command with control, he became a pitcher over a four year period that compared with Christy Mathewson, Warren Sphann, and Lefty Grove.  If Ryan had command to go with control as good as Koufax, he would have struck out 7,000 batters and won 500 games.  Nolan was great, Sandy was better.



Nolan Ryan had great stuff but he was his own worst enemy. When you strike out 14 batters but walk 8 you are going to lose. That was Nolan Ryan in the 70s. He didn't have that killer instinct to close out the win. He would walk two guys then give up a double and lose the game.
If I had a game I had to win, I could name 20 Pitchers I personally saw that I would rather have pitch than Nolan Ryan


----------



## Truthspeaker (Sep 19, 2009)

rightwinger said:


> Truthspeaker said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


----------



## Truthspeaker (Sep 19, 2009)

> I'm well-aware there are different classes of steroids for different purposes.  Your little song and dance about "keeping him healthier" is a snow job you need to try pulling on someone else.  He packed on 30 or 40 pounds of muscle and I guess you're now going to say THAT doesn't have anything to do with power?



It sure didn't hurt him, be we all know he had multiple 40 plus homer seasons before he started juicing. Being a baseball player myself and not unaccustomed to hitting homeruns, I've played 20 lbs of muscle lighter than I am now and it didn't affect my ability to hit homeruns. It may have lengthened out the distance of my longest homers but I don't really need the extra distance. You're talking about adding 10-20 feet max of extra distance for steroid users. The technique is the all important factor. But I will say the biggest boost a guy gets from steroids is the confidence. confidence is the most important thing in baseball.



> You're swinging in the wind, trying to defend the indefensible.  He's a cheater.


No Gunny, I'm right on. Do I think Bonds is dishonest? Yes, but no more than the rest of the league. Therefore I contend there was a level playing field. As far as calling him a cheater, I don't know if that's the correct word to use when everyone else is doing it. Cheating would be stealing information, like signs, relaying pitches(which everyone tries to do). Old school players were rife with cheaters as much as today what with their spit balls, fixed games, literally cutting corners running the bases if the umpire wasn't watching, grabbing belts of baserunners when the ump isn't watching, etc. "Cheating", whether you want to admit it or not, is part of the game, even if it shouldn't be.

I don't like how pious guys like you sound when you judge human beings in the steroids era. When you're in their position 99% of you hypocrites would do the exact same thing. so cut with the o holier than thou crap. "cheater, cheater, cheater, neener, neener, neener."

It happens every game in every sport when a team benefits from a blown call and doesn't admit to the ump. I don't see any managers going out and telling the umpire, "Ya know blue... my guy was really out by a half a step and it wasn't close. So I'm gonna take him off the bases."

Until I see a player or manager do something like that in a game, I say they're all dishonest. So get over it.
Enjoy your dinner.  I'm going out drinking.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Truthspeaker (Sep 19, 2009)

JakeStarkey said:


> Ryan was a great pitcher.  When Koufax developed command with control, he became a pitcher over a four year period that compared with Christy Mathewson, Warren Sphann, and Lefty Grove.  If Ryan had command to go with control as good as Koufax, he would have struck out 7,000 batters and won 500 games.  Nolan was great, Sandy was better.



It's definitely debatable. Everyone has their weakness, Ryan's was walks. But he's still the most unhittable pitcher of all time, hence the no hitters. 

But the main point is this:

What 9 would you have in their prime, even if it was just one year, if you had to win one big game?


----------



## Fatality (Sep 20, 2009)

Truthspeaker said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > Ryan was a great pitcher.  When Koufax developed command with control, he became a pitcher over a four year period that compared with Christy Mathewson, Warren Sphann, and Lefty Grove.  If Ryan had command to go with control as good as Koufax, he would have struck out 7,000 batters and won 500 games.  Nolan was great, Sandy was better.
> ...



in their prime for just one year?

pitcher

Orel Hershiser (1988)


----------



## Truthspeaker (Sep 20, 2009)

> in their prime for just one year?
> 
> pitcher
> 
> Orel Hershiser (1988)



Coming from a Giant's fan?!!! Are are you just a closet Dodger?

By the way, gimme the rest of your team. Hope there's no dodgers on it.


----------



## Fatality (Sep 20, 2009)

Truthspeaker said:


> > in their prime for just one year?
> >
> > pitcher
> >
> ...



lol, giants fan? nope! i liked some of the players that were with the giants back some years. i like the angels and dodgers though i rarely get to see any of the games. did get to see the angels beat up the dodgers 10-4 this past spring training.

as for the rest of the team ill have to think about it more since its just in their prime or their best year.

saturday night went to the diamondbacks game and watched colorado pound them into the ground...amazingly the score was 10-4, so the two games ive been to this year both had a score of 10-4, hows that for a stat!


----------



## Truthspeaker (Sep 21, 2009)

My team is apparently unbeatable since no one has brought a full team against mine yet.


----------



## CrusaderFrank (Sep 21, 2009)

Fatality said:


> Truthspeaker said:
> 
> 
> > JakeStarkey said:
> ...



Ron Guidry 1978


----------



## Truthspeaker (Sep 21, 2009)

CrusaderFrank said:


> Fatality said:
> 
> 
> > Truthspeaker said:
> ...



Stats?


----------

