# The Nature of Belief



## Coloradomtnman

*be·lief*

\bə-ˈlēf\_noun_
: a feeling of being sure that someone or something exists or that something is true

: a feeling that something is good, right, or valuable

: a feeling of trust in the worth or ability of someone

*Full Definition*
1
*:*a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing 
2
*:*something believed; _especially_ *:*a tenet or body of tenets held by a group

Belief Definition of belief by Merriam-Webster

If we all agreed on the above definition of belief, appropriately vague and stating nothing about truth or Truth, and representing an opinion based on experience and used the word as such, would it reduce much of the division between people of differing beliefs?  Or would we, as people, continue to hold to a stricter sense of the word and trust that what we believe is truth or Truth and those whose beliefs differ are wrong in those beliefs? 

Do you believe that your beliefs are true?  How much confidence do you have in those beliefs?

For example, if you believe in God, do you believe absolutely or is there room for doubt?  Or, the Big Bang Theory or the theories of Evolution, or the theories of Relativity?  Are these ideas or frameworks or world views, however it is that you hold them, absolute in your own mind or do you consider the possibility that they could be inaccurate?

If you believe in something absolutely, what makes you so confident in that belief?  What makes you believe that your belief is 100% accurate?

If your beliefs are open to doubt, do you think that is a good thing?

Are Science and religion compatible under such a framework?

Discuss.


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## midcan5

It appears you are trying in your own mind and thoughts to reconcile two disparate ideas. Truth requires testing proof examination, religion requires faith and an acceptance of certain articles of faith. I am old enough today to doubt very few if any of my beliefs, took a long time getting here. 

"It is of no help to us that there is an absolute truth of the matter of things because unfortunately, none of us are in a position to say definitively what that is - although we all think that we are."  Stanley Fish


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## Coloradomtnman

midcan5 said:


> It appears you are trying in your own mind and thoughts to reconcile two disparate ideas. Truth requires testing proof examination, religion requires faith and an acceptance of certain articles of faith. I am old enough today to doubt very few if any of my beliefs, took a long time getting here.
> 
> "It is of no help to us that there is an absolute truth of the matter of things because unfortunately, none of us are in a position to say definitively what that is - although we all think that we are."  Stanley Fish



If that is your impression then I must not have expressed myself very well.  I don't think that human beings can know absolute truth or even if there is such a thing.

I am curious as to the confidence you have in your beliefs and how you got there.  Would you explain?


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## Said1

We know probability.


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## Coloradomtnman

Said1 said:


> We know probability.



What do you mean?


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## Said1

Probabilities. As in what will probably happen if you walk into oncoming traffic. You will probably get hit, but it's not the absolute truth. Ya, dig?


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## Coloradomtnman

Said1 said:


> Probabilities. As in what will probably happen if you walk into oncoming traffic. You will probably get hit, but it's not the absolute truth. Ya, dig?



I see what you're getting at.

But we're not even 100% sure about causality.  Granted, that may be splitting hairs a bit between 99% and 100%, but it is, nonetheless, not absolute certainty.


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## PK1

Coloradomtnman said:


> *be·lief*
> 
> \bə-ˈlēf\_noun_
> : a feeling of being sure that someone or something exists or that something is true
> 
> : a feeling that something is good, right, or valuable
> 
> : a feeling of trust in the worth or ability of someone
> 
> *Full Definition*
> 1
> *:*a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed ...
> 
> Are Science and religion compatible under such a framework?
> 
> Discuss.



In my mind, Science & Religion are not compatible. 
Truth? "Absolute truth"?
Depends on how you define it.
I prefer to view my "reality" as either Objective (confirmed by others outside my own mind) or Subjective (my view, which may or may not correspond to other beliefs).
Your "truth" is subjective.
Science deals with Objective reality, while Religion invokes a simple explanation (God) to cover the gaps in scientific knowledge.
Beliefs are inherently subjective, and have emotional components. However, when they are compared to objective knowledge, and not dogmatic faith, then beliefs may reflect "truth" to various degrees. That's where probability enters the picture ...


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## zaangalewa

Coloradomtnman said:


> *be·lief*
> 
> \bə-ˈlēf\_noun_
> : a feeling of being sure that someone or something exists or that something is true
> 
> : a feeling that something is good, right, or valuable
> 
> : a feeling of trust in the worth or ability of someone
> 
> *Full Definition*
> 1
> *:*a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing
> 2
> *:*something believed; _especially_ *:*a tenet or body of tenets held by a group
> 
> Belief Definition of belief by Merriam-Webster
> 
> If we all agreed on the above definition of belief, appropriately vague and stating nothing about truth or Truth, and representing an opinion based on experience and used the word as such, would it reduce much of the division between people of differing beliefs?  Or would we, as people, continue to hold to a stricter sense of the word and trust that what we believe is truth or Truth and those whose beliefs differ are wrong in those beliefs?
> 
> Do you believe that your beliefs are true?  How much confidence do you have in those beliefs?
> 
> For example, if you believe in God, do you believe absolutely or is there room for doubt?  Or, the Big Bang Theory or the theories of Evolution, or the theories of Relativity?  Are these ideas or frameworks or world views, however it is that you hold them, absolute in your own mind or do you consider the possibility that they could be inaccurate?
> 
> If you believe in something absolutely, what makes you so confident in that belief?  What makes you believe that your belief is 100% accurate?
> 
> If your beliefs are open to doubt, do you think that is a good thing?
> 
> Are Science and religion compatible under such a framework?
> 
> Discuss.



Doubt and belief are the two sides of the same coin. ... And if I think about what you said here then I think your problem seems to contain two different components: One component: Why needs physics (=natural science) mathematics (=not a science but a 'spiritual' art and technique)? That's a question of philosophy. It's more easy to ask such a queston first because otherwise the problem is much to complex. Second component: Why needs ideology (not religion!) to fight against doubt? This is a question of sociology. It seems to me it's more easy for lots of people to kill than to learn. To learn something seems to be the most horrifying thing for lots of human beings. That's one reason why it needs religion for example - because we have to work on our own inner structures if we really like to live in a better world.

In general: For Christians is nothing existing what's an incompatibillity between science and religion, because truth is always true, completly independent who says the truth. Different points of views lead to discussions - but discussions or open questions without answer are not an incompatibility. To clear something needs time, that's all.


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## zaangalewa

PK1 said:


> ... Religion invokes a simple explanation (God) to cover the gaps in scientific knowledge ...



Seems to me you think religion is a way to say how many saltcorns to use at breakfast for an egg. Science says "5-1o corns" and religion says "take some salt if you like it or let it be if not" depending on the religion. But indeed a concrete religion like the christian religion says something competly different:

-----
_You are the salt of the earth, but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled under people’s feet. You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. 
-----
----
_


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## zaangalewa

Said1 said:


> Probabilities. As in what will probably happen if you walk into oncoming traffic. You will probably get hit, but it's not the absolute truth. Ya, dig?



Probably you and everyone else is right? That's the absolute truth? What happens with your foot if you let a tank roll over this foot? Do you get probably a problem in this case or do you get a serios problem in this case?


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## jwoodie

Belief is a state of mind.  Truth is a widely held opinion.


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## ipaps

I believe a horse has 4 legs.
I think a horse has 4 legs.
I remember a horse has 4 legs.
What's the difference between beliefs and memory? what if they are the same thing?

If I have never see a horse, nor read or been told about one, then I don't have a belief of how many legs it has. However, if I have the memory that a mammal has 4 legs, and is told that a horse is a mammal, I can deduce that it has 4 legs. I may then remember the result of that deduction, and "believe" that a horse has 4 legs.

If I were then shown that a horse has 6 legs. I'd revoke my memory and overwrite it with 6 legs per horse. I'd start to believe a horse has 6 legs. Although I can still kept a record of how I come to believe a horse has 6 legs... or not.

I guess it's like this:

When an intellectual being needs to form an opinion to guild his action, or simply needs to express it, he draw data from his long term memory, put it into short term memory in order to compute with other information. The result of the computation or series of computation "feels" like a belief which drive his action, or communication interface. This belief can also be "remembered", written into long term memory for future use. It's rather inefficient to deduce everything from start every time.

A product of computation that's driving actions without the intellectual being aware that it's a product of computation. Drawing from perceptions and long term memories(which cannot be fully trusted) and/or external memories that's coming in through perceiving interface, processed in a way that's not really precise, a little bit creative instead.


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## RWS

I'm sorry, but you are completely mistaken. And/or deceived.

The other things expressed above are things you should consider, if you should decide to step outside of the box. And stepping outside of the box is something that is VERY necessary in our current environment.

I will hold your hand outside of the box. And help you keep your balance as you see the new realities. And if I'm not here, there are many willing to do the same. You just have to get out of the box and take a look outside. The water's dark and deep.


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## RWS

But you have to wade into it.


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## percysunshine

Pirsig pretty much covers the Good vs. Truth debate here;







It is my belief that Truth wins, but it could not finish the race without Good.

.


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## PK1

percysunshine said:


> Pirsig pretty much covers the Good vs. Truth debate here;
> 
> It is my belief that Truth wins, but it could not finish the race without Good.
> .


---
Those "Truth" and "Good" words have subjective humanoid definitions and are relative to a culture, and one "absorbs" them during childhood psychological development ... in a religious family.
Scientists are interested in observed "reality" from objective methods & interpretations, often related to cause-effect patterns with various probabilities.

Belief systems, whether religious or scientific, are developed brain cell patterns reflective of CONSCIOUS memories that include emotional coding.
.


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## PK1

zaangalewa said:


> PK1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... Religion invokes a simple explanation (God) to cover the gaps in scientific knowledge ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seems to me you think religion is a way to say how many saltcorns to use at breakfast for an egg. Science says "5-1o corns" and religion says "take some salt if you like it or let it be if not" depending on the religion.
Click to expand...

---
Yes, religion is truly subjective with personal emotional preferences (salt), regardless of the culture.

The objective view is observing if & how family members adopt beliefs from their perceived "authorities".
.


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## percysunshine

PK1 said:


> percysunshine said:
> 
> 
> 
> Pirsig pretty much covers the Good vs. Truth debate here;
> 
> It is my belief that Truth wins, but it could not finish the race without Good.
> .
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> Those "Truth" and "Good" words have subjective humanoid definitions and are relative to a culture, and one "absorbs" them during childhood psychological development ... in a religious family.
> Scientists are interested in observed "reality" from objective methods & interpretations, often related to cause-effect patterns with various probabilities.
> 
> Belief systems, whether religious or scientific, are developed brain cell patterns reflective of CONSCIOUS memories that include emotional coding.
> .
Click to expand...


.
"Scientists are interested in observed "reality" from objective methods & interpretations, often related to cause-effect patterns with various probabilities."

Yet, theoretical physicists are called 'Scientists'.

hmmm...

.


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## RWS

"God" is the "Santa Claus" necessary to keep the masses in check.

We feel so bad when we finally reveal the Santa Claus to our kids, but have no such worries about revealing the fallacies of the religion they were born into...

That's wrong.

Because that's gonna lead them into something that they will devote their life to, based on BS. And that's why we have radical fanatic religious folks, fucking up the world. And of course, most devotees of a religion will not become fanatical. But if religion was just taken away completely, things would be better on Earth! We would probably already be travelling to other star systems.

If not for what religious zealots erased from our history. The knowledge that was lost, had to start over dozens of times.

Religion is the suppression of humanity and spirituality.

Follow Enki. And the Serpents of the Snake instead.


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## RWS

I meant Brotherhood of the Snake! 

Dang beer....


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## PK1

percysunshine said:


> PK1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> percysunshine said:
> 
> 
> 
> Pirsig pretty much covers the Good vs. Truth debate here;
> 
> It is my belief that Truth wins, but it could not finish the race without Good.
> .
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> Those "Truth" and "Good" words have subjective humanoid definitions and are relative to a culture, and one "absorbs" them during childhood psychological development ... in a religious family.
> Scientists are interested in observed "reality" from objective methods & interpretations, often related to cause-effect patterns with various probabilities.
> 
> Belief systems, whether religious or scientific, are developed brain cell patterns reflective of CONSCIOUS memories that include emotional coding.
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> .
> "Scientists are interested in observed "reality" from objective methods & interpretations, often related to cause-effect patterns with various probabilities."
> 
> Yet, theoretical physicists are called 'Scientists'.
> 
> hmmm...
> 
> .
Click to expand...

---
Yes, PhD physicists are scientists, and some of them develop theories based on observed data.
Depending on the theory, research paradigms may be able to test them for "reality checks ".
Not so with religious ideas.
.


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## zaangalewa

RWS said:


> "God" is the "Santa Claus" necessary to keep the masses in check.
> 
> We feel so bad when we finally reveal the Santa Claus to our kids, but have no such worries about revealing the fallacies of the religion they were born into...
> 
> That's wrong.
> 
> Because that's gonna lead them into something that they will devote their life to, based on BS. And that's why we have radical fanatic religious folks, fucking up the world. And of course, most devotees of a religion will not become fanatical. But if religion was just taken away completely, things would be better on Earth! We would probably already be travelling to other star systems.
> 
> If not for what religious zealots erased from our history. The knowledge that was lost, had to start over dozens of times.
> 
> Religion is the suppression of humanity and spirituality.
> 
> Follow Enki. And the Serpents of the Snake instead.



Your problem is Santa Claus exists - and this is not a belief. Everyone can find Santa Claus who studies Santa Claus. And who for heavens sake is on his own free will an enemy of Christmas?


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## RWS

That's my favorite Christmas song!!! Instrumental only tho, but that's my fav!


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## RWS

This is the version of Sleigh Ride i love. I'm a piano player, so I like the instrumentals on xmas music... (cause I sing like shit)


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## RWS

One day I'll post my version.


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## RWS




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## RWS




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## RWS

Here's me on a recording I made, of Billy. I do all the instruments. It's safe to click. Enjoy!

Playing: Goodnight My Angel - Steinway Grand Piano.mp3 - picosong


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## Votto

Coloradomtnman said:


> *be·lief*
> 
> \bə-ˈlēf\_noun_
> : a feeling of being sure that someone or something exists or that something is true
> 
> : a feeling that something is good, right, or valuable
> 
> : a feeling of trust in the worth or ability of someone
> 
> *Full Definition*
> 1
> *:*a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing
> 2
> *:*something believed; _especially_ *:*a tenet or body of tenets held by a group
> 
> Belief Definition of belief by Merriam-Webster
> 
> If we all agreed on the above definition of belief, appropriately vague and stating nothing about truth or Truth, and representing an opinion based on experience and used the word as such, would it reduce much of the division between people of differing beliefs?  Or would we, as people, continue to hold to a stricter sense of the word and trust that what we believe is truth or Truth and those whose beliefs differ are wrong in those beliefs?
> 
> Do you believe that your beliefs are true?  How much confidence do you have in those beliefs?
> 
> For example, if you believe in God, do you believe absolutely or is there room for doubt?  Or, the Big Bang Theory or the theories of Evolution, or the theories of Relativity?  Are these ideas or frameworks or world views, however it is that you hold them, absolute in your own mind or do you consider the possibility that they could be inaccurate?
> 
> If you believe in something absolutely, what makes you so confident in that belief?  What makes you believe that your belief is 100% accurate?
> 
> If your beliefs are open to doubt, do you think that is a good thing?
> 
> Are Science and religion compatible under such a framework?
> 
> Discuss.


 
Science involves belief.  In fact, every aspect of our existence and thought involves belief.

For example, if I were to say that the average temperature of the earth is increasing, and if I measured it correctly, it would simply be a meaningless fact.  Who cares?  What are the implications?  It is questions like this that creates a belief of some kind.  We assign value to facts and then try to correlate causation to these facts, all of which involves belief of some kind.

Belief is merely a means of connecting the dots, so to speak.  If nothing were of value, and there was no concern with causation, then no one would give a damn about such things as scientific fact.

When it gets down to it, we can prove precious little in this world.  Hell, we can't even prove that smoking causes cancer.  All we have is a correlation indicating that it probably does.

What really ticks me off is that those who don't believe in a God think that their beliefs are so much better than everyone else.  I suppose I can somewhat understand when people question "facts".  I don't mind questioning the facts.  In fact, I celebrate people who question anything in their lives.  It's just when they refuse to investigate further because they have already convinced themselves of the facts is when I get pissed off.  I see this from both the religious and nonreligious.  It really goes both ways.


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## Coloradomtnman

Votto said:


> Coloradomtnman said:
> 
> 
> 
> *be·lief*
> 
> \bə-ˈlēf\_noun_
> : a feeling of being sure that someone or something exists or that something is true
> 
> : a feeling that something is good, right, or valuable
> 
> : a feeling of trust in the worth or ability of someone
> 
> *Full Definition*
> 1
> *:*a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing
> 2
> *:*something believed; _especially_ *:*a tenet or body of tenets held by a group
> 
> Belief Definition of belief by Merriam-Webster
> 
> If we all agreed on the above definition of belief, appropriately vague and stating nothing about truth or Truth, and representing an opinion based on experience and used the word as such, would it reduce much of the division between people of differing beliefs?  Or would we, as people, continue to hold to a stricter sense of the word and trust that what we believe is truth or Truth and those whose beliefs differ are wrong in those beliefs?
> 
> Do you believe that your beliefs are true?  How much confidence do you have in those beliefs?
> 
> For example, if you believe in God, do you believe absolutely or is there room for doubt?  Or, the Big Bang Theory or the theories of Evolution, or the theories of Relativity?  Are these ideas or frameworks or world views, however it is that you hold them, absolute in your own mind or do you consider the possibility that they could be inaccurate?
> 
> If you believe in something absolutely, what makes you so confident in that belief?  What makes you believe that your belief is 100% accurate?
> 
> If your beliefs are open to doubt, do you think that is a good thing?
> 
> Are Science and religion compatible under such a framework?
> 
> Discuss.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Science involves belief.  In fact, every aspect of our existence and thought involves belief.
> 
> For example, if I were to say that the average temperature of the earth is increasing, and if I measured it correctly, it would simply be a meaningless fact.  Who cares?  What are the implications?  It is questions like this that creates a belief of some kind.  We assign value to facts and then try to correlate causation to these facts, all of which involves belief of some kind.
> 
> Belief is merely a means of connecting the dots, so to speak.  If nothing were of value, and there was no concern with causation, then no one would give a damn about such things as scientific fact.
> 
> When it gets down to it, we can prove precious little in this world.  Hell, we can't even prove that smoking causes cancer.  All we have is a correlation indicating that it probably does.
> 
> What really ticks me off is that those who don't believe in a God think that their beliefs are so much better than everyone else.  I suppose I can somewhat understand when people question "facts".  I don't mind questioning the facts.  In fact, I celebrate people who question anything in their lives.  It's just when they refuse to investigate further because they have already convinced themselves of the facts is when I get pissed off.  I see this from both the religious and nonreligious.  It really goes both ways.
Click to expand...


Other than the "people who don't believe in a God" part of your last paragraph, I agree.  I find that those who believe in a God value their beliefs above the beliefs of those who don't, and even those that do believe in a God value their beliefs above others whose belief in God is different.  Not that those who don't believe are above such squabbling - everyone does it.

When people believe something without question, that probably bothers me more than anything about other people.  When I catch myself doing it, I get really disappointed in myself.  When people assume they know enough about something - no further need to look further into it - that's maybe my biggest pet peeve.


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## PK1

Votto said:


> Coloradomtnman said:
> 
> 
> 
> *be·lief*
> 
> \bə-ˈlēf\_noun_
> : a feeling of being sure that someone or something exists or that something is true
> 
> : a feeling that something is good, right, or valuable
> 
> : a feeling of trust in the worth or ability of someone
> 
> *Full Definition*
> 1
> *:*a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing
> 2
> *:*something believed; _especially_ *:*a tenet or body of tenets held by a group
> 
> Belief Definition of belief by Merriam-Webster
> 
> If we all agreed on the above definition of belief, appropriately vague and stating nothing about truth or Truth, and representing an opinion based on experience and used the word as such, would it reduce much of the division between people of differing beliefs?  Or would we, as people, continue to hold to a stricter sense of the word and trust that what we believe is truth or Truth and those whose beliefs differ are wrong in those beliefs?
> 
> Do you believe that your beliefs are true?  How much confidence do you have in those beliefs?
> 
> For example, if you believe in God, do you believe absolutely or is there room for doubt?  Or, the Big Bang Theory or the theories of Evolution, or the theories of Relativity?  Are these ideas or frameworks or world views, however it is that you hold them, absolute in your own mind or do you consider the possibility that they could be inaccurate?
> 
> If you believe in something absolutely, what makes you so confident in that belief?  What makes you believe that your belief is 100% accurate?
> 
> If your beliefs are open to doubt, do you think that is a good thing?
> 
> Are Science and religion compatible under such a framework?
> 
> Discuss.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Science involves belief.  In fact, every aspect of our existence and thought involves belief.
> 
> For example, if I were to say that the average temperature of the earth is increasing, and if I measured it correctly, it would simply be a meaningless fact.  Who cares?  What are the implications?  It is questions like this that creates a belief of some kind.  We assign value to facts and then try to correlate causation to these facts, all of which involves belief of some kind.
> 
> Belief is merely a means of connecting the dots, so to speak.  If nothing were of value, and there was no concern with causation, then no one would give a damn about such things as scientific fact.
> 
> When it gets down to it, we can prove precious little in this world.  Hell, we can't even prove that smoking causes cancer.  All we have is a correlation indicating that it probably does.
> 
> What really ticks me off is that those who don't believe in a God think that their beliefs are so much better than everyone else.  I suppose I can somewhat understand when people question "facts".  I don't mind questioning the facts.  In fact, I celebrate people who question anything in their lives.  It's just when they refuse to investigate further because they have already convinced themselves of the facts is when I get pissed off.  I see this from both the religious and nonreligious.  It really goes both ways.
Click to expand...

---
_"those who don't believe in a God think that their beliefs are so much better"_

If the non-God beliefs are scientific, then yes, they are "better" ... based on evidence & rational thought *rather than* fear of ignorance, simplicity ("God" of the gaps in knowledge) & emotional pacification.
.


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## PK1

Coloradomtnman said:


> Votto said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coloradomtnman said:
> 
> 
> 
> *be·lief*
> 
> \bə-ˈlēf\_noun_
> : a feeling of being sure that someone or something exists or that something is true
> 
> : a feeling that something is good, right, or valuable
> 
> : a feeling of trust in the worth or ability of someone
> 
> *Full Definition*
> 1
> *:*a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing
> 2
> *:*something believed; _especially_ *:*a tenet or body of tenets held by a group
> 
> Belief Definition of belief by Merriam-Webster
> 
> If we all agreed on the above definition of belief, appropriately vague and stating nothing about truth or Truth, and representing an opinion based on experience and used the word as such, would it reduce much of the division between people of differing beliefs?  Or would we, as people, continue to hold to a stricter sense of the word and trust that what we believe is truth or Truth and those whose beliefs differ are wrong in those beliefs?
> 
> Do you believe that your beliefs are true?  How much confidence do you have in those beliefs?
> 
> For example, if you believe in God, do you believe absolutely or is there room for doubt?  Or, the Big Bang Theory or the theories of Evolution, or the theories of Relativity?  Are these ideas or frameworks or world views, however it is that you hold them, absolute in your own mind or do you consider the possibility that they could be inaccurate?
> 
> If you believe in something absolutely, what makes you so confident in that belief?  What makes you believe that your belief is 100% accurate?
> 
> If your beliefs are open to doubt, do you think that is a good thing?
> 
> Are Science and religion compatible under such a framework?
> 
> Discuss.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Science involves belief.  In fact, every aspect of our existence and thought involves belief.
> 
> For example, if I were to say that the average temperature of the earth is increasing, and if I measured it correctly, it would simply be a meaningless fact.  Who cares?  What are the implications?  It is questions like this that creates a belief of some kind.  We assign value to facts and then try to correlate causation to these facts, all of which involves belief of some kind.
> 
> Belief is merely a means of connecting the dots, so to speak.  If nothing were of value, and there was no concern with causation, then no one would give a damn about such things as scientific fact.
> 
> When it gets down to it, we can prove precious little in this world.  Hell, we can't even prove that smoking causes cancer.  All we have is a correlation indicating that it probably does.
> 
> What really ticks me off is that those who don't believe in a God think that their beliefs are so much better than everyone else.  I suppose I can somewhat understand when people question "facts".  I don't mind questioning the facts.  In fact, I celebrate people who question anything in their lives.  It's just when they refuse to investigate further because they have already convinced themselves of the facts is when I get pissed off.  I see this from both the religious and nonreligious.  It really goes both ways.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Other than the "people who don't believe in a God" part of your last paragraph, I agree.  I find that those who believe in a God value their beliefs above the beliefs of those who don't, and even those that do believe in a God value their beliefs above others whose belief in God is different.  Not that those who don't believe are above such squabbling - everyone does it.
> 
> When people believe something without question, that probably bothers me more than anything about other people.  When I catch myself doing it, I get really disappointed in myself.  When people assume they know enough about something - no further need to look further into it - that's maybe my biggest pet peeve.
Click to expand...

---
_"When people believe something without question, that probably bothers me more than anything"_

Agreed.
.


----------



## Coloradomtnman

PK1 said:


> Votto said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coloradomtnman said:
> 
> 
> 
> *be·lief*
> 
> \bə-ˈlēf\_noun_
> : a feeling of being sure that someone or something exists or that something is true
> 
> : a feeling that something is good, right, or valuable
> 
> : a feeling of trust in the worth or ability of someone
> 
> *Full Definition*
> 1
> *:*a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing
> 2
> *:*something believed; _especially_ *:*a tenet or body of tenets held by a group
> 
> Belief Definition of belief by Merriam-Webster
> 
> If we all agreed on the above definition of belief, appropriately vague and stating nothing about truth or Truth, and representing an opinion based on experience and used the word as such, would it reduce much of the division between people of differing beliefs?  Or would we, as people, continue to hold to a stricter sense of the word and trust that what we believe is truth or Truth and those whose beliefs differ are wrong in those beliefs?
> 
> Do you believe that your beliefs are true?  How much confidence do you have in those beliefs?
> 
> For example, if you believe in God, do you believe absolutely or is there room for doubt?  Or, the Big Bang Theory or the theories of Evolution, or the theories of Relativity?  Are these ideas or frameworks or world views, however it is that you hold them, absolute in your own mind or do you consider the possibility that they could be inaccurate?
> 
> If you believe in something absolutely, what makes you so confident in that belief?  What makes you believe that your belief is 100% accurate?
> 
> If your beliefs are open to doubt, do you think that is a good thing?
> 
> Are Science and religion compatible under such a framework?
> 
> Discuss.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Science involves belief.  In fact, every aspect of our existence and thought involves belief.
> 
> For example, if I were to say that the average temperature of the earth is increasing, and if I measured it correctly, it would simply be a meaningless fact.  Who cares?  What are the implications?  It is questions like this that creates a belief of some kind.  We assign value to facts and then try to correlate causation to these facts, all of which involves belief of some kind.
> 
> Belief is merely a means of connecting the dots, so to speak.  If nothing were of value, and there was no concern with causation, then no one would give a damn about such things as scientific fact.
> 
> When it gets down to it, we can prove precious little in this world.  Hell, we can't even prove that smoking causes cancer.  All we have is a correlation indicating that it probably does.
> 
> What really ticks me off is that those who don't believe in a God think that their beliefs are so much better than everyone else.  I suppose I can somewhat understand when people question "facts".  I don't mind questioning the facts.  In fact, I celebrate people who question anything in their lives.  It's just when they refuse to investigate further because they have already convinced themselves of the facts is when I get pissed off.  I see this from both the religious and nonreligious.  It really goes both ways.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ---
> _"those who don't believe in a God think that their beliefs are so much better"_
> 
> If the non-God beliefs are scientific, then yes, they are "better" ... based on evidence & rational thought *rather than* fear of ignorance, simplicity ("God" of the gaps in knowledge) & emotional pacification.
> .
Click to expand...


I agree, and my point still stands.


----------



## PK1

Coloradomtnman said:


> PK1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Votto said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coloradomtnman said:
> 
> 
> 
> *be·lief*
> 
> \bə-ˈlēf\_noun_
> : a feeling of being sure that someone or something exists or that something is true
> 
> : a feeling that something is good, right, or valuable
> 
> : a feeling of trust in the worth or ability of someone
> 
> *Full Definition*
> 1
> *:*a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing
> 2
> *:*something believed; _especially_ *:*a tenet or body of tenets held by a group
> 
> Belief Definition of belief by Merriam-Webster
> 
> If we all agreed on the above definition of belief, appropriately vague and stating nothing about truth or Truth, and representing an opinion based on experience and used the word as such, would it reduce much of the division between people of differing beliefs?  Or would we, as people, continue to hold to a stricter sense of the word and trust that what we believe is truth or Truth and those whose beliefs differ are wrong in those beliefs?
> 
> Do you believe that your beliefs are true?  How much confidence do you have in those beliefs?
> 
> For example, if you believe in God, do you believe absolutely or is there room for doubt?  Or, the Big Bang Theory or the theories of Evolution, or the theories of Relativity?  Are these ideas or frameworks or world views, however it is that you hold them, absolute in your own mind or do you consider the possibility that they could be inaccurate?
> 
> If you believe in something absolutely, what makes you so confident in that belief?  What makes you believe that your belief is 100% accurate?
> 
> If your beliefs are open to doubt, do you think that is a good thing?
> 
> Are Science and religion compatible under such a framework?
> 
> Discuss.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Science involves belief.  In fact, every aspect of our existence and thought involves belief.
> 
> For example, if I were to say that the average temperature of the earth is increasing, and if I measured it correctly, it would simply be a meaningless fact.  Who cares?  What are the implications?  It is questions like this that creates a belief of some kind.  We assign value to facts and then try to correlate causation to these facts, all of which involves belief of some kind.
> 
> Belief is merely a means of connecting the dots, so to speak.  If nothing were of value, and there was no concern with causation, then no one would give a damn about such things as scientific fact.
> 
> When it gets down to it, we can prove precious little in this world.  Hell, we can't even prove that smoking causes cancer.  All we have is a correlation indicating that it probably does.
> 
> What really ticks me off is that those who don't believe in a God think that their beliefs are so much better than everyone else.  I suppose I can somewhat understand when people question "facts".  I don't mind questioning the facts.  In fact, I celebrate people who question anything in their lives.  It's just when they refuse to investigate further because they have already convinced themselves of the facts is when I get pissed off.  I see this from both the religious and nonreligious.  It really goes both ways.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ---
> _"those who don't believe in a God think that their beliefs are so much better"_
> 
> If the non-God beliefs are scientific, then yes, they are "better" ... based on evidence & rational thought *rather than* fear of ignorance, simplicity ("God" of the gaps in knowledge) & emotional pacification.
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree, and my point still stands.
Click to expand...

---
Your point? Agnosticism is a rational position?

.


----------



## Coloradomtnman

PK1 said:


> Coloradomtnman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PK1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Votto said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coloradomtnman said:
> 
> 
> 
> *be·lief*
> 
> \bə-ˈlēf\_noun_
> : a feeling of being sure that someone or something exists or that something is true
> 
> : a feeling that something is good, right, or valuable
> 
> : a feeling of trust in the worth or ability of someone
> 
> *Full Definition*
> 1
> *:*a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing
> 2
> *:*something believed; _especially_ *:*a tenet or body of tenets held by a group
> 
> Belief Definition of belief by Merriam-Webster
> 
> If we all agreed on the above definition of belief, appropriately vague and stating nothing about truth or Truth, and representing an opinion based on experience and used the word as such, would it reduce much of the division between people of differing beliefs?  Or would we, as people, continue to hold to a stricter sense of the word and trust that what we believe is truth or Truth and those whose beliefs differ are wrong in those beliefs?
> 
> Do you believe that your beliefs are true?  How much confidence do you have in those beliefs?
> 
> For example, if you believe in God, do you believe absolutely or is there room for doubt?  Or, the Big Bang Theory or the theories of Evolution, or the theories of Relativity?  Are these ideas or frameworks or world views, however it is that you hold them, absolute in your own mind or do you consider the possibility that they could be inaccurate?
> 
> If you believe in something absolutely, what makes you so confident in that belief?  What makes you believe that your belief is 100% accurate?
> 
> If your beliefs are open to doubt, do you think that is a good thing?
> 
> Are Science and religion compatible under such a framework?
> 
> Discuss.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Science involves belief.  In fact, every aspect of our existence and thought involves belief.
> 
> For example, if I were to say that the average temperature of the earth is increasing, and if I measured it correctly, it would simply be a meaningless fact.  Who cares?  What are the implications?  It is questions like this that creates a belief of some kind.  We assign value to facts and then try to correlate causation to these facts, all of which involves belief of some kind.
> 
> Belief is merely a means of connecting the dots, so to speak.  If nothing were of value, and there was no concern with causation, then no one would give a damn about such things as scientific fact.
> 
> When it gets down to it, we can prove precious little in this world.  Hell, we can't even prove that smoking causes cancer.  All we have is a correlation indicating that it probably does.
> 
> What really ticks me off is that those who don't believe in a God think that their beliefs are so much better than everyone else.  I suppose I can somewhat understand when people question "facts".  I don't mind questioning the facts.  In fact, I celebrate people who question anything in their lives.  It's just when they refuse to investigate further because they have already convinced themselves of the facts is when I get pissed off.  I see this from both the religious and nonreligious.  It really goes both ways.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ---
> _"those who don't believe in a God think that their beliefs are so much better"_
> 
> If the non-God beliefs are scientific, then yes, they are "better" ... based on evidence & rational thought *rather than* fear of ignorance, simplicity ("God" of the gaps in knowledge) & emotional pacification.
> .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree, and my point still stands.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ---
> Your point? Agnosticism is a rational position?
> 
> .
Click to expand...


Yeah, pretty much...


----------



## Igrok_

The nature of Belief is that the man was created to be the son of God and without this tie he can't be calm. So, Belief allows the man to move to the place where God is...or in the opposite direction.


----------



## RWS

Belief is when you don't know the facts, but decide that you do. 

It's ok in many circumstances, but when it comes to religion... it has cost countless lives. And will likely continue to do so.

I am a staunch UFO advocate, but I do not believe it. I will argue for the possibilities, and fully discuss various scenarios in the past that led to the present, but I still do not believe it. I am willing to listen to, discuss, and accept rational arguments that would dispute my hypothesis. And, while also being an advocate for science, I also cannot say that I believe current theories. I'll argue for them, but if there's one thing science has taught us, is that every theory prior to the current one, was wrong! The latest is not necessarily the greatest... 

But religions cannot allow that. They don't want people wandering in their minds about the alternative possibilities, including other religions. Because it costs them money and power when people stray. Therefore, you must BELIEVE, even in the face of insurmountable evidence or circumstances.


----------



## RWS

In science, when thoughts stray... advances sometimes happen!

In religion, people die... every time....


----------



## RWS

I have this poster, and I think it sums it up nicely.... : -)


----------



## Coloradomtnman

RWS said:


> Belief is when you don't know the facts, but decide that you do.
> 
> It's ok in many circumstances, but when it comes to religion... it has cost countless lives. And will likely continue to do so.
> 
> I am a staunch UFO advocate, but I do not believe it. I will argue for the possibilities, and fully discuss various scenarios in the past that led to the present, but I still do not believe it. I am willing to listen to, discuss, and accept rational arguments that would dispute my hypothesis. And, while also being an advocate for science, I also cannot say that I believe current theories. I'll argue for them, but if there's one thing science has taught us, is that every theory prior to the current one, was wrong! The latest is not necessarily the greatest...
> 
> But religions cannot allow that. They don't want people wandering in their minds about the alternative possibilities, including other religions. Because it costs them money and power when people stray. Therefore, you must BELIEVE, even in the face of insurmountable evidence or circumstances.



I agree, and what I find interesting is that many of my fellow nonbelievers are puzzled when I say that I do not believe the Big Bang Theory or in the theories of evolution.  I have to explain that belief has nothing to do with it.  Scientific theories are simply the current  best description and explanation of the available evidence and not fact or Truth; that no theory has ever been proved and never will be because that isn't how science or reality work.

And when I say the same to a creationist, I think they must be completely confused.


----------



## KokomoJojo

RWS said:


> 1) Belief is when you don't know the facts, but decide that you do.
> 
> 2) It's ok in many circumstances, but when it comes to religion... it has cost countless lives. And will likely continue to do so.




part 1 may be true (in some peoples practice), part 2 is patently false.

Belief is a conscious decision of a 'best fit'.  Technically in its broadest sense 'everything' the mind can intercept and or imagine is based on some level of form of belief.

The line between religion and belief is the 'act'ion associated with the belief, and generally religion is a rational qualitative judgment rather than one of pure reason as in holmes playground.  

Belief becomes a religion when the belief is practiced in action, otherwise is remains as nothing more than ethics.

Atheists have slaughtered upwards of 100 million, more than all the 'religions' put together.


----------



## KokomoJojo

Atheists have slaughtered upwards of 100 million, more than all the 'religions' put together. 

I meant to say more than all 'other' religions combined


----------

