# Happy Hiroshima Day!



## Weatherman2020

Don’t screw with America.


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## Billy_Kinetta

Perhaps a nice filet tonight, with mushroom sauce ...


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## Ringel05

Billy_Kinetta said:


> Perhaps a nice filet tonight, with mushroom sauce ...


Think I'll nuke a frozen Japanese dinner tonight.


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## Defiant1

Billy_Kinetta said:


> Perhaps a nice filet tonight, with mushroom sauce ...




Wagyu?


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## shockedcanadian

Weatherman2020 said:


> Don’t screw with America.
> 
> View attachment 273051




Oh, I didn't know this day was celebrated.  Subsequently with the word "happy",


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## gipper

A day that shall live in infamy. 

Shame. 

Mass murder of defenseless women and children, is nothing short of the most heinous thing a nation can do.


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## mudwhistle

Weatherman2020 said:


> Don’t screw with America.
> 
> View attachment 273051


Which is more horrific......an atomic bomb or the Democrat Party?


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## Third Party

gipper said:


> A day that shall live in infamy.
> 
> Shame.
> 
> Mass murder of defenseless women and children, is nothing short of the most heinous thing a nation can do.


Many saw it as necessary


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## Billy_Kinetta

The point was to defeat the enemy and end the war with minimal casualties to ourselves.  It succeeded.

It was the last war fought with the intention of a total win.


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## gipper

Third Party said:


> gipper said:
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> A day that shall live in infamy.
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> Shame.
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> Mass murder of defenseless women and children, is nothing short of the most heinous thing a nation can do.
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> Many saw it as necessary
Click to expand...

Only those who haven’t bothered to study the event.


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## Third Party

gipper said:


> Third Party said:
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> gipper said:
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> A day that shall live in infamy.
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> Shame.
> 
> Mass murder of defenseless women and children, is nothing short of the most heinous thing a nation can do.
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> Many saw it as necessary
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Only those who haven’t bothered to study the event.
Click to expand...

Studied it-still believe Truman was right.


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## gipper

Third Party said:


> gipper said:
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> Third Party said:
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> gipper said:
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> A day that shall live in infamy.
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> Shame.
> 
> Mass murder of defenseless women and children, is nothing short of the most heinous thing a nation can do.
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> Many saw it as necessary
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Only those who haven’t bothered to study the event.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Studied it-still believe Truman was right.
Click to expand...

No. He was terribly wrong. He is a war criminal who should have been hung.


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## Polishprince

gipper said:


> Third Party said:
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> gipper said:
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> Third Party said:
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> gipper said:
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> A day that shall live in infamy.
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> Shame.
> 
> Mass murder of defenseless women and children, is nothing short of the most heinous thing a nation can do.
> 
> 
> 
> Many saw it as necessary
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Only those who haven’t bothered to study the event.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Studied it-still believe Truman was right.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No. He was terribly wrong. He is a war criminal who should have been hung.
Click to expand...



Well, its not too late to do exactly that.    Cromwell was disinterred and hung in England back in the day.  Ditto with Pope Formosus, who faced trial in the famous Cadaver Synod, one of the most important judicial precedents of the 9th Century.

Why not ask Truman's fellow Democrats at the next debate what they think of their compatriot?


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## Polishprince

Weatherman2020 said:


> Don’t screw with America.
> 
> View attachment 273051




The devious Japanese laughed like hell at the Americans about Pearl Harbor.   I remember as a kid , Japanese sports heroes like Professor Tanaka and Mr. Fuji poking fun at us "stupid Americans".   At Hiroshima, they got their comeuppance.


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## gipper

Polishprince said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
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> Don’t screw with America.
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> View attachment 273051
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> The devious Japanese laughed like hell at the Americans about Pearl Harbor.   I remember as a kid , Japanese sports heroes like Professor Tanaka and Mr. Fuji poking fun at us "stupid Americans".   At Hiroshima, they got their comeuppance.
Click to expand...

Yeah nuking two cities full of defenseless innocent civilians is the same as bombing a military base that killed no civilians and a fraction on military personnel.

So thinks the Dumb American.


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## Weatherman2020

gipper said:


> Polishprince said:
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> Weatherman2020 said:
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> Don’t screw with America.
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> View attachment 273051
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> The devious Japanese laughed like hell at the Americans about Pearl Harbor.   I remember as a kid , Japanese sports heroes like Professor Tanaka and Mr. Fuji poking fun at us "stupid Americans".   At Hiroshima, they got their comeuppance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah nuking two cities full of defenseless innocent civilians is the same as bombing a military base that killed no civilians and a fraction on military personnel.
> 
> So thinks the Dumb American.
Click to expand...

Democrats love bombing civilians.


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## impuretrash

gipper said:


> Polishprince said:
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> Weatherman2020 said:
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> Don’t screw with America.
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> View attachment 273051
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> The devious Japanese laughed like hell at the Americans about Pearl Harbor.   I remember as a kid , Japanese sports heroes like Professor Tanaka and Mr. Fuji poking fun at us "stupid Americans".   At Hiroshima, they got their comeuppance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah nuking two cities full of defenseless innocent civilians is the same as bombing a military base that killed no civilians and a fraction on military personnel.
> 
> So thinks the Dumb American.
Click to expand...


At least we got anime out of the deal so it's a win in my book


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## Weatherman2020

Polishprince said:


> gipper said:
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> Third Party said:
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> gipper said:
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> Third Party said:
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> gipper said:
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> A day that shall live in infamy.
> 
> Shame.
> 
> Mass murder of defenseless women and children, is nothing short of the most heinous thing a nation can do.
> 
> 
> 
> Many saw it as necessary
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Only those who haven’t bothered to study the event.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Studied it-still believe Truman was right.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No. He was terribly wrong. He is a war criminal who should have been hung.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Well, its not too late to do exactly that.    Cromwell was disinterred and hung in England back in the day.  Ditto with Pope Formosus, who faced trial in the famous Cadaver Synod, one of the most important judicial precedents of the 9th Century.
> 
> Why not ask Truman's fellow Democrats at the next debate what they think of their compatriot?
Click to expand...

Gripper is just mad the Japanese rape camps got closed.


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## Polishprince

gipper said:


> Polishprince said:
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> Weatherman2020 said:
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> Don’t screw with America.
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> View attachment 273051
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> The devious Japanese laughed like hell at the Americans about Pearl Harbor.   I remember as a kid , Japanese sports heroes like Professor Tanaka and Mr. Fuji poking fun at us "stupid Americans".   At Hiroshima, they got their comeuppance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah nuking two cities full of defenseless innocent civilians is the same as bombing a military base that killed no civilians and a fraction on military personnel.
> 
> So thinks the Dumb American.
Click to expand...



Liberals cheered when Clinton bombed Serbian civilians in his Wag the Dog Campaign against Milosevic and the Yugoslav Republic


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## OldLady

Ironically, the most horrific weapon we have yet invented became the instrument of peace.  No nuclear armed country dares use it, knowing they will be turned to glass in minutes.


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## Polishprince

impuretrash said:


> gipper said:
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> Weatherman2020 said:
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> Don’t screw with America.
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> View attachment 273051
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> The devious Japanese laughed like hell at the Americans about Pearl Harbor.   I remember as a kid , Japanese sports heroes like Professor Tanaka and Mr. Fuji poking fun at us "stupid Americans".   At Hiroshima, they got their comeuppance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah nuking two cities full of defenseless innocent civilians is the same as bombing a military base that killed no civilians and a fraction on military personnel.
> 
> So thinks the Dumb American.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> At least we got anime out of the deal so it's a win in my book
Click to expand...



Although from my understanding, the radiation from the A Bombs dropped on Japan were considered responsible for mutations and emergence of Godzilla in Tokyo Bay.   Thank God for the Japanese girl singers who discovered how to alert Mothra.


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## impuretrash

gipper said:


> Polishprince said:
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> Weatherman2020 said:
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> Don’t screw with America.
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> View attachment 273051
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> 
> The devious Japanese laughed like hell at the Americans about Pearl Harbor.   I remember as a kid , Japanese sports heroes like Professor Tanaka and Mr. Fuji poking fun at us "stupid Americans".   At Hiroshima, they got their comeuppance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah nuking two cities full of defenseless innocent civilians is the same as bombing a military base that killed no civilians and a fraction on military personnel.
> 
> So thinks the Dumb American.
Click to expand...



Funny thing is, Japan learned a lesson, moved on and became one of the most stable and peaceful nations on earth. They haven't committed any atrocities since as far as I'm aware.


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## Weatherman2020

OldLady said:


> Ironically, the most horrific weapon we have yet invented became the instrument of peace.  No nuclear armed country dares use it, knowing they will be turned to glass in minutes.


Until the Islamos get one, dying for Allah is a pinnacle for them.


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## Polishprince

impuretrash said:


> gipper said:
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> Polishprince said:
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> Weatherman2020 said:
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> Don’t screw with America.
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> View attachment 273051
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> The devious Japanese laughed like hell at the Americans about Pearl Harbor.   I remember as a kid , Japanese sports heroes like Professor Tanaka and Mr. Fuji poking fun at us "stupid Americans".   At Hiroshima, they got their comeuppance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah nuking two cities full of defenseless innocent civilians is the same as bombing a military base that killed no civilians and a fraction on military personnel.
> 
> So thinks the Dumb American.
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> Click to expand...
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> 
> Funny thing is, Japan learned a lesson, moved on and became one of the most stable and peaceful nations on earth. They haven't committed any atrocities since as far as I'm aware.
Click to expand...



That is basically True.  

America was tricked by Japan in 1941 by the Pearl Harbor Job they pulled on us in Hawaii- coincidentally in a place actually called "Pearl Harbor".  (what are the odds of all the places Japan could have pulled a Pearl Harbor Job, it would be a place called "pearl harbor")   But after they receive the beating they so richly deserved, they saw the error of their ways.


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## gipper

impuretrash said:


> gipper said:
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> Polishprince said:
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> Weatherman2020 said:
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> Don’t screw with America.
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> View attachment 273051
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> The devious Japanese laughed like hell at the Americans about Pearl Harbor.   I remember as a kid , Japanese sports heroes like Professor Tanaka and Mr. Fuji poking fun at us "stupid Americans".   At Hiroshima, they got their comeuppance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah nuking two cities full of defenseless innocent civilians is the same as bombing a military base that killed no civilians and a fraction on military personnel.
> 
> So thinks the Dumb American.
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> Click to expand...
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> 
> 
> Funny thing is, Japan learned a lesson, moved on and became one of the most stable and peaceful nations on earth. They haven't committed any atrocities since as far as I'm aware.
Click to expand...

Yeah that’s good.

Too bad the USA became an imperialist warmongering EMPIRE.


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## Weatherman2020

gipper said:


> impuretrash said:
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> Weatherman2020 said:
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> Don’t screw with America.
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> View attachment 273051
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> The devious Japanese laughed like hell at the Americans about Pearl Harbor.   I remember as a kid , Japanese sports heroes like Professor Tanaka and Mr. Fuji poking fun at us "stupid Americans".   At Hiroshima, they got their comeuppance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah nuking two cities full of defenseless innocent civilians is the same as bombing a military base that killed no civilians and a fraction on military personnel.
> 
> So thinks the Dumb American.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Funny thing is, Japan learned a lesson, moved on and became one of the most stable and peaceful nations on earth. They haven't committed any atrocities since as far as I'm aware.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah that’s good.
> 
> Too bad the USA became an imperialist warmongering EMPIRE.
Click to expand...

Careful, I’ll have American authorities arrest you, knave.


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## gipper

Weatherman2020 said:


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> Weatherman2020 said:
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> Don’t screw with America.
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> View attachment 273051
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> The devious Japanese laughed like hell at the Americans about Pearl Harbor.   I remember as a kid , Japanese sports heroes like Professor Tanaka and Mr. Fuji poking fun at us "stupid Americans".   At Hiroshima, they got their comeuppance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah nuking two cities full of defenseless innocent civilians is the same as bombing a military base that killed no civilians and a fraction on military personnel.
> 
> So thinks the Dumb American.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Funny thing is, Japan learned a lesson, moved on and became one of the most stable and peaceful nations on earth. They haven't committed any atrocities since as far as I'm aware.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah that’s good.
> 
> Too bad the USA became an imperialist warmongering EMPIRE.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Careful, I’ll have American authorities arrest you, knave.
Click to expand...


There you go. All warlike imperialist nations imprison their citizens for speaking out. That’s coming no doubt as the idiots in the Imperial Capital on the Potomac, impose ever harsher laws and punishments.


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## gipper

Polishprince said:


> gipper said:
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> Weatherman2020 said:
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> Don’t screw with America.
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> View attachment 273051
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> The devious Japanese laughed like hell at the Americans about Pearl Harbor.   I remember as a kid , Japanese sports heroes like Professor Tanaka and Mr. Fuji poking fun at us "stupid Americans".   At Hiroshima, they got their comeuppance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah nuking two cities full of defenseless innocent civilians is the same as bombing a military base that killed no civilians and a fraction on military personnel.
> 
> So thinks the Dumb American.
> 
> Click to expand...
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> 
> Liberals cheered when Clinton bombed Serbian civilians in his Wag the Dog Campaign against Milosevic and the Yugoslav Republic
Click to expand...

If you think I’m a liberal, you need to think again.


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## Weatherman2020

gipper said:


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> The devious Japanese laughed like hell at the Americans about Pearl Harbor.   I remember as a kid , Japanese sports heroes like Professor Tanaka and Mr. Fuji poking fun at us "stupid Americans".   At Hiroshima, they got their comeuppance.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah nuking two cities full of defenseless innocent civilians is the same as bombing a military base that killed no civilians and a fraction on military personnel.
> 
> So thinks the Dumb American.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
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> 
> Funny thing is, Japan learned a lesson, moved on and became one of the most stable and peaceful nations on earth. They haven't committed any atrocities since as far as I'm aware.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah that’s good.
> 
> Too bad the USA became an imperialist warmongering EMPIRE.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Careful, I’ll have American authorities arrest you, knave.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There you go. All warlike imperialist nations imprison their citizens for speaking out. That’s coming no doubt as the idiots in the Imperial Capital on the Potomac, impose ever harsher laws and punishments.
Click to expand...

To the Gulog, Knave!


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## Death Angel

gipper said:


> A day that shall live in infamy.
> 
> Shame.
> 
> Mass murder of defenseless women and children, is nothing short of the most heinous thing a nation can do.


They weren't innocent


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## Polishprince

Death Angel said:


> gipper said:
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> A day that shall live in infamy.
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> Shame.
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> Mass murder of defenseless women and children, is nothing short of the most heinous thing a nation can do.
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> They weren't innocent
Click to expand...



I think the real lesson about Japan is that they have seen the errors of their ways.  That's mainly because we beat their asses in the war.

If we had "negotiated" an end to WWII instead, it might not have turned out the same.

Japan now is considered very polite.   Their Prime Minister, Shinzo "Honest" Abe is a good friend of Trump's.  Toyota doesn't celebrate Pearl Harbor Day with sales, at least not in America.       I was watching wrestling last night on TV, the Kabuki Warriors - a team from Japan- were actually the baby faces, 2 polite young ladies from Japan.


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## Weatherman2020

Polishprince said:


> Death Angel said:
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> gipper said:
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> A day that shall live in infamy.
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> Shame.
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> Mass murder of defenseless women and children, is nothing short of the most heinous thing a nation can do.
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> They weren't innocent
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> Click to expand...
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> I think the real lesson about Japan is that they have seen the errors of their ways.  That's mainly because we beat their asses in the war.
> 
> If we had "negotiated" an end to WWII instead, it might not have turned out the same.
> 
> Japan now is considered very polite.   Their Prime Minister, Shinzo "Honest" Abe is a good friend of Trump's.  Toyota doesn't celebrate Pearl Harbor Day with sales, at least not in America.       I was watching wrestling last night on TV, the Kabuki Warriors - a team from Japan- were actually the baby faces, 2 polite young ladies from Japan.
Click to expand...

Japans plan on Dec 7 was to neutralize American and British power, then negotiate a treaty to let Japan rule Asia.


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## Third Party

gipper said:


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> A day that shall live in infamy.
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> Shame.
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> Mass murder of defenseless women and children, is nothing short of the most heinous thing a nation can do.
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> Many saw it as necessary
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Only those who haven’t bothered to study the event.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Studied it-still believe Truman was right.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No. He was terribly wrong. He is a war criminal who should have been hung.
Click to expand...

Go hit the beach at IWO Jima and then talk-those guys did and they said drop the bomb!


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## Dick Foster

Weatherman2020 said:


> Don’t screw with America.
> 
> View attachment 273051



Lets celebrate and bomb them again. No wait,  the idiots have already bombed themselves again with Fukushima. Never mind.


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## Polishprince

gipper said:


> A day that shall live in infamy.
> 
> Shame.
> 
> Mass murder of defenseless women and children, is nothing short of the most heinous thing a nation can do.





Hardly.

If America didn't drop the bomb on Japan and they didn't surrender,  there was an invasion of Japan scheduled for 1946.  A million Americans and who knows how many Japs and people of other nationalities would have been killed as well.

My old man was pleased as he was home on leave during the Battle of Hiroshima and they had him penciled in for the task force for the invasion of Japan.  Surrender was a tremendous development, the next communication he got from the Army was where to go to get processed out and get his discharge.


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## gipper

Third Party said:


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> A day that shall live in infamy.
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> Shame.
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> Mass murder of defenseless women and children, is nothing short of the most heinous thing a nation can do.
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> Many saw it as necessary
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Only those who haven’t bothered to study the event.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Studied it-still believe Truman was right.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No. He was terribly wrong. He is a war criminal who should have been hung.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Go hit the beach at IWO Jima and then talk-those guys did and they said drop the bomb!
Click to expand...

Silly...it wasn’t necessary to take Iwo. Total waste of men and material, but Americans want to believe the fairytales.


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## gipper

Polishprince said:


> gipper said:
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> A day that shall live in infamy.
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> Shame.
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> Mass murder of defenseless women and children, is nothing short of the most heinous thing a nation can do.
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> Hardly.
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> If America didn't drop the bomb on Japan and they didn't surrender,  there was an invasion of Japan scheduled for 1946.  A million Americans and who knows how many Japs and people of other nationalities would have been killed as well.
> 
> My old man was pleased as he was home on leave during the Battle of Hiroshima and they had him penciled in for the task force for the invasion of Japan.  Surrender was a tremendous development, the next communication he got from the Army was where to go to get processed out and get his discharge.
Click to expand...

Wrong. Japan had been trying to surrender for months.


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## Unkotare

shockedcanadian said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
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> Don’t screw with America.
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> View attachment 273051
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> Oh, I didn't know this day was celebrated.  Subsequently with the word "happy",
Click to expand...



It’s not. You can see the true character of anyone who would celebrate the incineration of hundreds of thousands of civilians.


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## Polishprince

gipper said:


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> Many saw it as necessary
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> Only those who haven’t bothered to study the event.
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> Click to expand...
> 
> Studied it-still believe Truman was right.
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> Click to expand...
> 
> No. He was terribly wrong. He is a war criminal who should have been hung.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Go hit the beach at IWO Jima and then talk-those guys did and they said drop the bomb!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Silly...it wasn’t necessary to take Iwo. Total waste of men and material, but Americans want to believe the fairytales.
Click to expand...



The airfields at Iwo Jima were needed for the scheduled invasion of Japan in 1946, that's why they defended Iwo Jima so tenuously.

Let me recommend the tremendous documentary "Sands of Iwo Jima" to bring you up to speed on this.

Japan certainly had a strange way of "wanting" to surrender, torpedoing the Indianapolis in shark filled waters just a week before Hiroshima.


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## Unkotare

Billy_Kinetta said:


> The point was to defeat the enemy and end the war with minimal casualties to ourselves.  It succeeded.
> 
> .





On the contrary, had fdr not ignored overtures for surrender long before, many thousands of American servicemen might not have been killed.


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## Polishprince

Unkotare said:


> Billy_Kinetta said:
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> The point was to defeat the enemy and end the war with minimal casualties to ourselves.  It succeeded.
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> 
> On the contrary, had fdr not ignored overtures for surrender long before, many thousands of American servicemen might not have been killed.
Click to expand...



FDR died in April 1945, long before Okinawa, long before Hiroshima.


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## Dick Foster

gipper said:


> Third Party said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
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> 
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> Third Party said:
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> gipper said:
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> Third Party said:
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> 
> 
> Many saw it as necessary
> 
> 
> 
> Only those who haven’t bothered to study the event.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Studied it-still believe Truman was right.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No. He was terribly wrong. He is a war criminal who should have been hung.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Go hit the beach at IWO Jima and then talk-those guys did and they said drop the bomb!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Silly...it wasn’t necessary to take Iwo. Total waste of men and material, but Americans want to believe the fairytales.
Click to expand...

You're as full of shit as a Christmas turkey. Iwo was necessary to procecute the air war againt Japan. A war they asked for, started , got and an end they richly deserved. Iwo was an emergency strip for damaged B29 bombers returning from Japan and an operational strip for P51 escort fighters to escort our bombers during their missions over Japan. Iwo helped end the war the way it needed to end.


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## Unkotare

Polishprince said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Billy_Kinetta said:
> 
> 
> 
> The point was to defeat the enemy and end the war with minimal casualties to ourselves.  It succeeded.
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On the contrary, had fdr not ignored overtures for surrender long before, many thousands of American servicemen might not have been killed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> FDR died in April 1945, long before Okinawa, long before Hiroshima.
Click to expand...



That's right, but the son of a bitch was alive during the Yalta Conference. Just prior to that meeting, he received a 40-page report from MacArthur informing him of overtures to surrender on behalf of Japan that MacArthur had learned of. The scumbag fdr dismissed the very notion as not serving his political ends (and potentially robbing him of a chance to try out his new toy by killing hundreds of thousands of civilians in a manner opposed by many of the leading US military leaders of the day).


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## gipper

Polishprince said:


> gipper said:
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> Third Party said:
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> gipper said:
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> Third Party said:
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Only those who haven’t bothered to study the event.
> 
> 
> 
> Studied it-still believe Truman was right.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No. He was terribly wrong. He is a war criminal who should have been hung.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Go hit the beach at IWO Jima and then talk-those guys did and they said drop the bomb!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Silly...it wasn’t necessary to take Iwo. Total waste of men and material, but Americans want to believe the fairytales.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The airfields at Iwo Jima were needed for the scheduled invasion of Japan in 1946, that's why they defended Iwo Jima so tenuously.
> 
> Let me recommend the tremendous documentary "Sands of Iwo Jima" to bring you up to speed on this.
> 
> Japan certainly had a strange way of "wanting" to surrender, torpedoing the Indianapolis in shark filled waters just a week before Hiroshima.
Click to expand...

LOL. Why did we need to invade, conquer,and occupy?  No need at all, unless you are an imperialist. Iwo was a total waste. Entirely unnecessary, but it’s no use.


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## Third Party

Dick Foster said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Third Party said:
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> gipper said:
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> 
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> 
> 
> Third Party said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Only those who haven’t bothered to study the event.
> 
> 
> 
> Studied it-still believe Truman was right.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No. He was terribly wrong. He is a war criminal who should have been hung.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Go hit the beach at IWO Jima and then talk-those guys did and they said drop the bomb!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Silly...it wasn’t necessary to take Iwo. Total waste of men and material, but Americans want to believe the fairytales.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You're as full of shit as a Christmas turkey. Iwo was necessary to procecute the air war againt Japan. A war they asked for, started , got and an end they richly deserved. Iwo was an emergency strip for damaged B29 bombers returning from Japan and an operational strip for P51 escort fighters to escort our bombers during their missions over Japan. Iwo helped end the war the way it needed to end.
Click to expand...

I heard that airmen will still buy drinks for a marine because their sacrifices on Iwo Jima saved so many flyers with plane trouble.


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## Third Party

gipper said:


> Polishprince said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
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> 
> 
> 
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> Third Party said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Third Party said:
> 
> 
> 
> Studied it-still believe Truman was right.
> 
> 
> 
> No. He was terribly wrong. He is a war criminal who should have been hung.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Go hit the beach at IWO Jima and then talk-those guys did and they said drop the bomb!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Silly...it wasn’t necessary to take Iwo. Total waste of men and material, but Americans want to believe the fairytales.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The airfields at Iwo Jima were needed for the scheduled invasion of Japan in 1946, that's why they defended Iwo Jima so tenuously.
> 
> Let me recommend the tremendous documentary "Sands of Iwo Jima" to bring you up to speed on this.
> 
> Japan certainly had a strange way of "wanting" to surrender, torpedoing the Indianapolis in shark filled waters just a week before Hiroshima.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> LOL. Why did we need to invade, conquer,and occupy?  No need at all, unless you are an imperialist. Iwo was a total waste. Entirely unnecessary, but it’s no use.
Click to expand...

Was the Dresden fire bombing needed? Killed more than Hiroshima. War is Hell-don't start it.


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## gipper

Dick Foster said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Third Party said:
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> gipper said:
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> 
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> Third Party said:
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> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Only those who haven’t bothered to study the event.
> 
> 
> 
> Studied it-still believe Truman was right.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No. He was terribly wrong. He is a war criminal who should have been hung.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Go hit the beach at IWO Jima and then talk-those guys did and they said drop the bomb!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Silly...it wasn’t necessary to take Iwo. Total waste of men and material, but Americans want to believe the fairytales.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You're as full of shit as a Christmas turkey. Iwo was necessary to procecute the air war againt Japan. A war they asked for, started , got and an end they richly deserved. Iwo was an emergency strip for damaged B29 bombers returning from Japan and an operational strip for P51 escort fighters to escort our bombers during their missions over Japan. Iwo helped end the war the way it needed to end.
Click to expand...

Of course you believe that. 

Iwo was seldom used by US air forces. A couple crippled bombers landed there. Thousands of men died and were wounded for a couple bombers. Good job. 

Japan’s air forces were nonexistent by mid 1944, other than a few kamikaze pilots. Our bombing crews often bombed the mainland entirely unmolested by Japanese fighters. They even went to daylight bombing, since there was no resistance.


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## gipper

Third Party said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Polishprince said:
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
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> Third Party said:
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> No. He was terribly wrong. He is a war criminal who should have been hung.
> 
> 
> 
> Go hit the beach at IWO Jima and then talk-those guys did and they said drop the bomb!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Silly...it wasn’t necessary to take Iwo. Total waste of men and material, but Americans want to believe the fairytales.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The airfields at Iwo Jima were needed for the scheduled invasion of Japan in 1946, that's why they defended Iwo Jima so tenuously.
> 
> Let me recommend the tremendous documentary "Sands of Iwo Jima" to bring you up to speed on this.
> 
> Japan certainly had a strange way of "wanting" to surrender, torpedoing the Indianapolis in shark filled waters just a week before Hiroshima.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> LOL. Why did we need to invade, conquer,and occupy?  No need at all, unless you are an imperialist. Iwo was a total waste. Entirely unnecessary, but it’s no use.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Was the Dresden fire bombing needed? Killed more than Hiroshima. War is Hell-don't start it.
Click to expand...

It was also a war crime. Yeah you start a war and we Americans will happily mass murder your women and children.  CRAZY.


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## Third Party

gipper said:


> Third Party said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> Polishprince said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Third Party said:
> 
> 
> 
> Go hit the beach at IWO Jima and then talk-those guys did and they said drop the bomb!
> 
> 
> 
> Silly...it wasn’t necessary to take Iwo. Total waste of men and material, but Americans want to believe the fairytales.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The airfields at Iwo Jima were needed for the scheduled invasion of Japan in 1946, that's why they defended Iwo Jima so tenuously.
> 
> Let me recommend the tremendous documentary "Sands of Iwo Jima" to bring you up to speed on this.
> 
> Japan certainly had a strange way of "wanting" to surrender, torpedoing the Indianapolis in shark filled waters just a week before Hiroshima.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> LOL. Why did we need to invade, conquer,and occupy?  No need at all, unless you are an imperialist. Iwo was a total waste. Entirely unnecessary, but it’s no use.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Was the Dresden fire bombing needed? Killed more than Hiroshima. War is Hell-don't start it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It was also a war crime. Yeah you start a war and we Americans will happily mass murder your women and children.  CRAZY.
Click to expand...

Wish it were different, but WE weren't there.


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## Polishprince

gipper said:


> Dick Foster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Third Party said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Third Party said:
> 
> 
> 
> Studied it-still believe Truman was right.
> 
> 
> 
> No. He was terribly wrong. He is a war criminal who should have been hung.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Go hit the beach at IWO Jima and then talk-those guys did and they said drop the bomb!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Silly...it wasn’t necessary to take Iwo. Total waste of men and material, but Americans want to believe the fairytales.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You're as full of shit as a Christmas turkey. Iwo was necessary to procecute the air war againt Japan. A war they asked for, started , got and an end they richly deserved. Iwo was an emergency strip for damaged B29 bombers returning from Japan and an operational strip for P51 escort fighters to escort our bombers during their missions over Japan. Iwo helped end the war the way it needed to end.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Of course you believe that.
> 
> Iwo was seldom used by US air forces. A couple crippled bombers landed there. Thousands of men died and were wounded for a couple bombers. Good job.
> 
> Japan’s air forces were nonexistent by mid 1944, other than a few kamikaze pilots. Our bombing crews often bombed the mainland entirely unmolested by Japanese fighters. They even went to daylight bombing, since there was no resistance.
Click to expand...



If Iwo Jima was so insignificant, why did the Japanese put up such resistance there?

Might as well have just evacuated the island against such an overwhelming invasion force which included Marine Sgt. John Stryker as portrayed by John Wayne.


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## gipper

Third Party said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Third Party said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Polishprince said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Silly...it wasn’t necessary to take Iwo. Total waste of men and material, but Americans want to believe the fairytales.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The airfields at Iwo Jima were needed for the scheduled invasion of Japan in 1946, that's why they defended Iwo Jima so tenuously.
> 
> Let me recommend the tremendous documentary "Sands of Iwo Jima" to bring you up to speed on this.
> 
> Japan certainly had a strange way of "wanting" to surrender, torpedoing the Indianapolis in shark filled waters just a week before Hiroshima.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> LOL. Why did we need to invade, conquer,and occupy?  No need at all, unless you are an imperialist. Iwo was a total waste. Entirely unnecessary, but it’s no use.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Was the Dresden fire bombing needed? Killed more than Hiroshima. War is Hell-don't start it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It was also a war crime. Yeah you start a war and we Americans will happily mass murder your women and children.  CRAZY.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wish it were different, but WE weren't there.
Click to expand...

That’s right, but that in no way excuses Truman for mass murdering defenseless women and children.  It was a war crime then and since.  Numerous officials in the government and military said the A bombings were unnecessary, somehow that never got into the public school textbooks.


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## gipper

Polishprince said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dick Foster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Third Party said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> No. He was terribly wrong. He is a war criminal who should have been hung.
> 
> 
> 
> Go hit the beach at IWO Jima and then talk-those guys did and they said drop the bomb!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Silly...it wasn’t necessary to take Iwo. Total waste of men and material, but Americans want to believe the fairytales.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You're as full of shit as a Christmas turkey. Iwo was necessary to procecute the air war againt Japan. A war they asked for, started , got and an end they richly deserved. Iwo was an emergency strip for damaged B29 bombers returning from Japan and an operational strip for P51 escort fighters to escort our bombers during their missions over Japan. Iwo helped end the war the way it needed to end.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Of course you believe that.
> 
> Iwo was seldom used by US air forces. A couple crippled bombers landed there. Thousands of men died and were wounded for a couple bombers. Good job.
> 
> Japan’s air forces were nonexistent by mid 1944, other than a few kamikaze pilots. Our bombing crews often bombed the mainland entirely unmolested by Japanese fighters. They even went to daylight bombing, since there was no resistance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> If Iwo Jima was so insignificant, why did the Japanese put up such resistance there?
> 
> Might as well have just evacuated the island against such an overwhelming invasion force which included Marine Sgt. John Stryker as portrayed by John Wayne.
Click to expand...

They were protecting their country. They thought. War is always dumb and useless.


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## Third Party

gipper said:


> Third Party said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Third Party said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Polishprince said:
> 
> 
> 
> The airfields at Iwo Jima were needed for the scheduled invasion of Japan in 1946, that's why they defended Iwo Jima so tenuously.
> 
> Let me recommend the tremendous documentary "Sands of Iwo Jima" to bring you up to speed on this.
> 
> Japan certainly had a strange way of "wanting" to surrender, torpedoing the Indianapolis in shark filled waters just a week before Hiroshima.
> 
> 
> 
> LOL. Why did we need to invade, conquer,and occupy?  No need at all, unless you are an imperialist. Iwo was a total waste. Entirely unnecessary, but it’s no use.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Was the Dresden fire bombing needed? Killed more than Hiroshima. War is Hell-don't start it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It was also a war crime. Yeah you start a war and we Americans will happily mass murder your women and children.  CRAZY.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wish it were different, but WE weren't there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That’s right, but that in no way excuses Truman for mass murdering defenseless women and children.  It was a war crime then and since.  Numerous officials in the government and military said the A bombings were unnecessary, somehow that never got into the public school textbooks.
Click to expand...

Everybody has an opinion including you. The ones I heard from the military then were one million American casualties at least and even more Japanese dead. A bombs were needed. Saved lives on both sides.


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## Polishprince

Third Party said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Third Party said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Third Party said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> LOL. Why did we need to invade, conquer,and occupy?  No need at all, unless you are an imperialist. Iwo was a total waste. Entirely unnecessary, but it’s no use.
> 
> 
> 
> Was the Dresden fire bombing needed? Killed more than Hiroshima. War is Hell-don't start it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It was also a war crime. Yeah you start a war and we Americans will happily mass murder your women and children.  CRAZY.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wish it were different, but WE weren't there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That’s right, but that in no way excuses Truman for mass murdering defenseless women and children.  It was a war crime then and since.  Numerous officials in the government and military said the A bombings were unnecessary, somehow that never got into the public school textbooks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Everybody has an opinion including you. The ones I heard from the military then were one million American casualties at least and even more Japanese dead. A bombs were needed. Saved lives on both sides.
Click to expand...




Another factor is that the Soviet Union under Uncle Joe Stalin was looking to get involved in the war against Japan as well.

The possibility of a Soviet occupation of at least part of the Japanese archipelago could have cost millions of more lives too.

Concluding WWII and getting the Japanese signature on the surrender document saved a huge amount of grief for everyone.


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## Unkotare

Third Party said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Third Party said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Third Party said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> LOL. Why did we need to invade, conquer,and occupy?  No need at all, unless you are an imperialist. Iwo was a total waste. Entirely unnecessary, but it’s no use.
> 
> 
> 
> Was the Dresden fire bombing needed? Killed more than Hiroshima. War is Hell-don't start it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It was also a war crime. Yeah you start a war and we Americans will happily mass murder your women and children.  CRAZY.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wish it were different, but WE weren't there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That’s right, but that in no way excuses Truman for mass murdering defenseless women and children.  It was a war crime then and since.  Numerous officials in the government and military said the A bombings were unnecessary, somehow that never got into the public school textbooks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Everybody has an opinion including you. The ones I heard from the military then were one million American casualties at least and even more Japanese dead. A bombs were needed. Saved lives on both sides.
Click to expand...



Military leaders _of that day_ came out in opposition to such barbarity. Our enemies at the time certainly acted in barbaric ways during the war, but America is better than that.


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## Dan Stubbs

gipper said:


> A day that shall live in infamy.
> 
> Shame.
> 
> Mass murder of defenseless women and children, is nothing short of the most heinous thing a nation can do.


*It was quick and no pain.*


----------



## gipper

Third Party said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Third Party said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Third Party said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> LOL. Why did we need to invade, conquer,and occupy?  No need at all, unless you are an imperialist. Iwo was a total waste. Entirely unnecessary, but it’s no use.
> 
> 
> 
> Was the Dresden fire bombing needed? Killed more than Hiroshima. War is Hell-don't start it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It was also a war crime. Yeah you start a war and we Americans will happily mass murder your women and children.  CRAZY.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wish it were different, but WE weren't there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That’s right, but that in no way excuses Truman for mass murdering defenseless women and children.  It was a war crime then and since.  Numerous officials in the government and military said the A bombings were unnecessary, somehow that never got into the public school textbooks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Everybody has an opinion including you. The ones I heard from the military then were one million American casualties at least and even more Japanese dead. A bombs were needed. Saved lives on both sides.
Click to expand...

That was Truman’s big lie that he used after he committed his war crime, in an effort to justify it. If this is news to you, please realize you haven’t studied the event. 

Here is what we didn’t learn in grade school. 
Harry Truman and the Atomic Bomb | Ralph Raico

Thus, the rationale for the atomic bombings has come to rest on a single colossal fabrication, which has gained surprising currency — that they were necessary in order to save a half-million or more American lives. These, supposedly, are the lives that would have been lost in the planned invasion of Kyushu in December, then in the all-out invasion of Honshu the next year, if that had been needed. But the worst-case scenario for a full-scale invasion of the Japanese home islands was forty-six thousand American lives lost.7 The ridiculously inflated figure of a half-million for the potential death toll — nearly twice the total of US dead in all theaters in the Second World War — is now routinely repeated in high-school and college textbooks and bandied about by ignorant commentators. Unsurprisingly the prize for sheer fatuousness on this score goes to President George H.W. Bush, who claimed in 1991 that dropping the bomb "spared millions of American lives."8

"The rationale for the atomic bombings has come to rest on a single colossal fabrication — that they were necessary in order to save a half-million or more American lives."

Still, Truman's multiple deceptions and self-deceptions are understandable, considering the horror he unleashed. It is equally understandable that the US occupation authorities censored reports from the shattered cities and did not permit films and photographs of the thousands of corpses and the frightfully mutilated survivors to reach the public.9 Otherwise, Americans — and the rest of the world — might have drawn disturbing comparisons to scenes then coming to light from the Nazi concentration camps.


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## Deplorable Yankee

Anyone who doesn't celebrate is a commie and a homophobic bigot 

Enola was gay ...DERRRR


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## gipper

Deplorable Yankee said:


> Anyone who doesn't celebrate is a commie and a homophobic bigot
> 
> Enola was gay ...DERRRR
> 
> View attachment 273146


Best not to face the truth of the terrible immorality of mass murdering civilians. 

It is said those who live by the sword perish by the sword. 


*Don’t Whitewash the Hiroshima Bombing*
American foreign policy thus proceeded under a grim calculus that parses acts of violence to conclude some are morally justified simply based on who holds the knife, with much of the history of the next 70 some years a series of immoral acts allegedly servicing, albeit destructively and imperfectly, the moral imperative of saving lives by killing. America’s decisions on war, torture, rendition, and indefinite detention could be explained in character as the distasteful but necessary actions of fundamentally good people against fundamentally evil ones. Hiroshima set in motion a sweeping, national generalization that if we do it, it is right.

And with that, boom! The steps away from August 6 and the shock-and-awe horrors inside the rubble of Mosul are merely a matter of degree. The drone deaths of children at a wedding party are unfortunate collateral damage in service to the goal of defeating global terrorism. Same as the 3,100 civilians killed from the air since the U.S. launched its coalition war against the Islamic State, along with 3,674civilians destroyed by drone strikes in other parts of the world.

We are, in fact, able to think we are practically doing the people of Afghanistan (Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Libya, Somalia…) a favor by killing some of them, as we believe we did for tens of thousands of Japanese that might have been lost in a land invasion of their home islands had Hiroshima not be killed for their prospective sins. There is little discussion because debate is largely unnecessary; the myth of Hiroshima says expediency wipes away concerns over morality. And with that neatly tucked away in our conscience, all that is left is pondering where to righteously strike next.

America’s deliberate targeting of civilians, and its post-facto justifications, are clearly not unique, either in World War II, or in the wars before or since. Other nations, including Japan itself, added their own horror to the books, mostly without remorse. But history’s only use of nuclear weapons holds a significant place in infamy, especially on this August 6. America’s lack of introspection over one of the single most destructive days in the history of human warfare continues, with 21st-century consequences.
Don’t Whitewash the Hiroshima Bombing


----------



## mikegriffith1

The nuking of Hiroshima is one of the biggest and most shameful stains on our history. We did not need to nuke Hiroshima. Truman knew at least two weeks before he ordered the atomic bomb dropped on the city that the Japanese wanted to surrender and that their only real condition was that the emperor not be deposed.

https://miketgriffith.com/files/immoraluse.pdf


----------



## Deplorable Yankee

gipper said:


> Deplorable Yankee said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone who doesn't celebrate is a commie and a homophobic bigot
> 
> Enola was gay ...DERRRR
> 
> View attachment 273146
> 
> 
> 
> Best not to face the truth of the terrible immorality of mass murdering civilians.
> 
> It is said those who live by the sword perish by the sword.
> 
> 
> *Don’t Whitewash the Hiroshima Bombing*
> American foreign policy thus proceeded under a grim calculus that parses acts of violence to conclude some are morally justified simply based on who holds the knife, with much of the history of the next 70 some years a series of immoral acts allegedly servicing, albeit destructively and imperfectly, the moral imperative of saving lives by killing. America’s decisions on war, torture, rendition, and indefinite detention could be explained in character as the distasteful but necessary actions of fundamentally good people against fundamentally evil ones. Hiroshima set in motion a sweeping, national generalization that if we do it, it is right.
> 
> And with that, boom! The steps away from August 6 and the shock-and-awe horrors inside the rubble of Mosul are merely a matter of degree. The drone deaths of children at a wedding party are unfortunate collateral damage in service to the goal of defeating global terrorism. Same as the 3,100 civilians killed from the air since the U.S. launched its coalition war against the Islamic State, along with 3,674civilians destroyed by drone strikes in other parts of the world.
> 
> We are, in fact, able to think we are practically doing the people of Afghanistan (Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Libya, Somalia…) a favor by killing some of them, as we believe we did for tens of thousands of Japanese that might have been lost in a land invasion of their home islands had Hiroshima not be killed for their prospective sins. There is little discussion because debate is largely unnecessary; the myth of Hiroshima says expediency wipes away concerns over morality. And with that neatly tucked away in our conscience, all that is left is pondering where to righteously strike next.
> 
> America’s deliberate targeting of civilians, and its post-facto justifications, are clearly not unique, either in World War II, or in the wars before or since. Other nations, including Japan itself, added their own horror to the books, mostly without remorse. But history’s only use of nuclear weapons holds a significant place in infamy, especially on this August 6. America’s lack of introspection over one of the single most destructive days in the history of human warfare continues, with 21st-century consequences.
> Don’t Whitewash the Hiroshima Bombing
Click to expand...


whos whitewashing 
Im fine with it 

why dont ya ask the japs about mass murdering civilians ....

We really shined during the firebombing of Tokyo ...now that was some real death and destruction


----------



## gipper

Deplorable Yankee said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Deplorable Yankee said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone who doesn't celebrate is a commie and a homophobic bigot
> 
> Enola was gay ...DERRRR
> 
> View attachment 273146
> 
> 
> 
> Best not to face the truth of the terrible immorality of mass murdering civilians.
> 
> It is said those who live by the sword perish by the sword.
> 
> 
> *Don’t Whitewash the Hiroshima Bombing*
> American foreign policy thus proceeded under a grim calculus that parses acts of violence to conclude some are morally justified simply based on who holds the knife, with much of the history of the next 70 some years a series of immoral acts allegedly servicing, albeit destructively and imperfectly, the moral imperative of saving lives by killing. America’s decisions on war, torture, rendition, and indefinite detention could be explained in character as the distasteful but necessary actions of fundamentally good people against fundamentally evil ones. Hiroshima set in motion a sweeping, national generalization that if we do it, it is right.
> 
> And with that, boom! The steps away from August 6 and the shock-and-awe horrors inside the rubble of Mosul are merely a matter of degree. The drone deaths of children at a wedding party are unfortunate collateral damage in service to the goal of defeating global terrorism. Same as the 3,100 civilians killed from the air since the U.S. launched its coalition war against the Islamic State, along with 3,674civilians destroyed by drone strikes in other parts of the world.
> 
> We are, in fact, able to think we are practically doing the people of Afghanistan (Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Libya, Somalia…) a favor by killing some of them, as we believe we did for tens of thousands of Japanese that might have been lost in a land invasion of their home islands had Hiroshima not be killed for their prospective sins. There is little discussion because debate is largely unnecessary; the myth of Hiroshima says expediency wipes away concerns over morality. And with that neatly tucked away in our conscience, all that is left is pondering where to righteously strike next.
> 
> America’s deliberate targeting of civilians, and its post-facto justifications, are clearly not unique, either in World War II, or in the wars before or since. Other nations, including Japan itself, added their own horror to the books, mostly without remorse. But history’s only use of nuclear weapons holds a significant place in infamy, especially on this August 6. America’s lack of introspection over one of the single most destructive days in the history of human warfare continues, with 21st-century consequences.
> Don’t Whitewash the Hiroshima Bombing
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> whos whitewashing
> Im fine with it
> 
> why dont ya ask the japs about mass murdering civilians ....
> 
> We really shined during the firebombing of Tokyo ...now that was some real death and destruction
Click to expand...

The ugly American. We have too many like you.


----------



## Deplorable Yankee

gipper said:


> Deplorable Yankee said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Deplorable Yankee said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone who doesn't celebrate is a commie and a homophobic bigot
> 
> Enola was gay ...DERRRR
> 
> View attachment 273146
> 
> 
> 
> Best not to face the truth of the terrible immorality of mass murdering civilians.
> 
> It is said those who live by the sword perish by the sword.
> 
> 
> *Don’t Whitewash the Hiroshima Bombing*
> American foreign policy thus proceeded under a grim calculus that parses acts of violence to conclude some are morally justified simply based on who holds the knife, with much of the history of the next 70 some years a series of immoral acts allegedly servicing, albeit destructively and imperfectly, the moral imperative of saving lives by killing. America’s decisions on war, torture, rendition, and indefinite detention could be explained in character as the distasteful but necessary actions of fundamentally good people against fundamentally evil ones. Hiroshima set in motion a sweeping, national generalization that if we do it, it is right.
> 
> And with that, boom! The steps away from August 6 and the shock-and-awe horrors inside the rubble of Mosul are merely a matter of degree. The drone deaths of children at a wedding party are unfortunate collateral damage in service to the goal of defeating global terrorism. Same as the 3,100 civilians killed from the air since the U.S. launched its coalition war against the Islamic State, along with 3,674civilians destroyed by drone strikes in other parts of the world.
> 
> We are, in fact, able to think we are practically doing the people of Afghanistan (Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Libya, Somalia…) a favor by killing some of them, as we believe we did for tens of thousands of Japanese that might have been lost in a land invasion of their home islands had Hiroshima not be killed for their prospective sins. There is little discussion because debate is largely unnecessary; the myth of Hiroshima says expediency wipes away concerns over morality. And with that neatly tucked away in our conscience, all that is left is pondering where to righteously strike next.
> 
> America’s deliberate targeting of civilians, and its post-facto justifications, are clearly not unique, either in World War II, or in the wars before or since. Other nations, including Japan itself, added their own horror to the books, mostly without remorse. But history’s only use of nuclear weapons holds a significant place in infamy, especially on this August 6. America’s lack of introspection over one of the single most destructive days in the history of human warfare continues, with 21st-century consequences.
> Don’t Whitewash the Hiroshima Bombing
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> whos whitewashing
> Im fine with it
> 
> why dont ya ask the japs about mass murdering civilians ....
> 
> We really shined during the firebombing of Tokyo ...now that was some real death and destruction
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The ugly American. We have too many like you.
Click to expand...


So youll just ignore the vicious Japanese and the millions of civilians they slaughtered and experimented on 
CHeck 

so much for you have any morals whatsoever 

what would you of have them done back then ? bent over ? 

candlelight vigil ? are you the type of retard that goes to candlelight vigils to hug muslims after they kill 3000 people ?


----------



## gipper

Deplorable Yankee said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Deplorable Yankee said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Deplorable Yankee said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone who doesn't celebrate is a commie and a homophobic bigot
> 
> Enola was gay ...DERRRR
> 
> View attachment 273146
> 
> 
> 
> Best not to face the truth of the terrible immorality of mass murdering civilians.
> 
> It is said those who live by the sword perish by the sword.
> 
> 
> *Don’t Whitewash the Hiroshima Bombing*
> American foreign policy thus proceeded under a grim calculus that parses acts of violence to conclude some are morally justified simply based on who holds the knife, with much of the history of the next 70 some years a series of immoral acts allegedly servicing, albeit destructively and imperfectly, the moral imperative of saving lives by killing. America’s decisions on war, torture, rendition, and indefinite detention could be explained in character as the distasteful but necessary actions of fundamentally good people against fundamentally evil ones. Hiroshima set in motion a sweeping, national generalization that if we do it, it is right.
> 
> And with that, boom! The steps away from August 6 and the shock-and-awe horrors inside the rubble of Mosul are merely a matter of degree. The drone deaths of children at a wedding party are unfortunate collateral damage in service to the goal of defeating global terrorism. Same as the 3,100 civilians killed from the air since the U.S. launched its coalition war against the Islamic State, along with 3,674civilians destroyed by drone strikes in other parts of the world.
> 
> We are, in fact, able to think we are practically doing the people of Afghanistan (Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Libya, Somalia…) a favor by killing some of them, as we believe we did for tens of thousands of Japanese that might have been lost in a land invasion of their home islands had Hiroshima not be killed for their prospective sins. There is little discussion because debate is largely unnecessary; the myth of Hiroshima says expediency wipes away concerns over morality. And with that neatly tucked away in our conscience, all that is left is pondering where to righteously strike next.
> 
> America’s deliberate targeting of civilians, and its post-facto justifications, are clearly not unique, either in World War II, or in the wars before or since. Other nations, including Japan itself, added their own horror to the books, mostly without remorse. But history’s only use of nuclear weapons holds a significant place in infamy, especially on this August 6. America’s lack of introspection over one of the single most destructive days in the history of human warfare continues, with 21st-century consequences.
> Don’t Whitewash the Hiroshima Bombing
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> whos whitewashing
> Im fine with it
> 
> why dont ya ask the japs about mass murdering civilians ....
> 
> We really shined during the firebombing of Tokyo ...now that was some real death and destruction
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The ugly American. We have too many like you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So youll just ignore the vicious Japanese and the millions of civilians they slaughtered and experimented on
> CHeck
> 
> so much for you have any morals whatsoever
> 
> what would you of have them done back then ? bent over ?
> 
> candlelight vigil ? are you the type of retard that goes to candlelight vigils to hug muslims after they kill 3000 people ?
Click to expand...

You have failed miserably.

First, where have I ever stated anything excusing Japan’s war crimes. Links I posted, which you failed to read and learn from, refer to their war crimes. 

Secondly and more importantly, you fail to comprehend the difference between the magnitude of the US government’s mass murdering of hundreds of thousands of civilians, versus what Japan did. 

Do you really think since they did it, we should too?  What kind of screwed up justification is that?

Mass murdering civilians of a defenseless nation wanting to surrender, is immoral and unjust. 

Wake up.


----------



## Picaro

Deplorable Yankee said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Deplorable Yankee said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Deplorable Yankee said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone who doesn't celebrate is a commie and a homophobic bigot
> 
> Enola was gay ...DERRRR
> 
> View attachment 273146
> 
> 
> 
> Best not to face the truth of the terrible immorality of mass murdering civilians.
> 
> It is said those who live by the sword perish by the sword.
> 
> 
> *Don’t Whitewash the Hiroshima Bombing*
> American foreign policy thus proceeded under a grim calculus that parses acts of violence to conclude some are morally justified simply based on who holds the knife, with much of the history of the next 70 some years a series of immoral acts allegedly servicing, albeit destructively and imperfectly, the moral imperative of saving lives by killing. America’s decisions on war, torture, rendition, and indefinite detention could be explained in character as the distasteful but necessary actions of fundamentally good people against fundamentally evil ones. Hiroshima set in motion a sweeping, national generalization that if we do it, it is right.
> 
> And with that, boom! The steps away from August 6 and the shock-and-awe horrors inside the rubble of Mosul are merely a matter of degree. The drone deaths of children at a wedding party are unfortunate collateral damage in service to the goal of defeating global terrorism. Same as the 3,100 civilians killed from the air since the U.S. launched its coalition war against the Islamic State, along with 3,674civilians destroyed by drone strikes in other parts of the world.
> 
> We are, in fact, able to think we are practically doing the people of Afghanistan (Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Libya, Somalia…) a favor by killing some of them, as we believe we did for tens of thousands of Japanese that might have been lost in a land invasion of their home islands had Hiroshima not be killed for their prospective sins. There is little discussion because debate is largely unnecessary; the myth of Hiroshima says expediency wipes away concerns over morality. And with that neatly tucked away in our conscience, all that is left is pondering where to righteously strike next.
> 
> America’s deliberate targeting of civilians, and its post-facto justifications, are clearly not unique, either in World War II, or in the wars before or since. Other nations, including Japan itself, added their own horror to the books, mostly without remorse. But history’s only use of nuclear weapons holds a significant place in infamy, especially on this August 6. America’s lack of introspection over one of the single most destructive days in the history of human warfare continues, with 21st-century consequences.
> Don’t Whitewash the Hiroshima Bombing
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> whos whitewashing
> Im fine with it
> 
> why dont ya ask the japs about mass murdering civilians ....
> 
> We really shined during the firebombing of Tokyo ...now that was some real death and destruction
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The ugly American. We have too many like you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So youll just ignore the vicious Japanese and the millions of civilians they slaughtered and experimented on
> CHeck
> 
> so much for you have any morals whatsoever
> 
> what would you of have them done back then ? bent over ?
> 
> candlelight vigil ? are you the type of retard that goes to candlelight vigils to hug muslims after they kill 3000 people ?
Click to expand...


These types of idiots, both on the right and left, think that if America stayed home and hid under their beds, everything would be fine in the world and nobody would bother them or something, despite all the evidence to the contrary. Of course they don't mind living here and reaping the results of lots of other peoples' sacrifices and then whining about it; they're afraid they will get drafted or something and have to put their own asses on the line for something besides their own self-indulgent whims. They're why I support a draft; that way if they refuse to serve we can deport them, or better yet throw them in the lines first so they can see first hand what fine hapless innocents those they throw Pity Parties for really are. The Japanese were a disgusting vile culture and people, period, and no need to feel bad at all about our winning the wars; their government was popular with the people for decades, including with those Japanese parasites living over here. So yes, Hiroshima Day should be celebrated, with parades and parties; the numbers of American lives saved is uncountable.


----------



## gipper

Picaro said:


> Deplorable Yankee said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Deplorable Yankee said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Deplorable Yankee said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone who doesn't celebrate is a commie and a homophobic bigot
> 
> Enola was gay ...DERRRR
> 
> View attachment 273146
> 
> 
> 
> Best not to face the truth of the terrible immorality of mass murdering civilians.
> 
> It is said those who live by the sword perish by the sword.
> 
> 
> *Don’t Whitewash the Hiroshima Bombing*
> American foreign policy thus proceeded under a grim calculus that parses acts of violence to conclude some are morally justified simply based on who holds the knife, with much of the history of the next 70 some years a series of immoral acts allegedly servicing, albeit destructively and imperfectly, the moral imperative of saving lives by killing. America’s decisions on war, torture, rendition, and indefinite detention could be explained in character as the distasteful but necessary actions of fundamentally good people against fundamentally evil ones. Hiroshima set in motion a sweeping, national generalization that if we do it, it is right.
> 
> And with that, boom! The steps away from August 6 and the shock-and-awe horrors inside the rubble of Mosul are merely a matter of degree. The drone deaths of children at a wedding party are unfortunate collateral damage in service to the goal of defeating global terrorism. Same as the 3,100 civilians killed from the air since the U.S. launched its coalition war against the Islamic State, along with 3,674civilians destroyed by drone strikes in other parts of the world.
> 
> We are, in fact, able to think we are practically doing the people of Afghanistan (Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Libya, Somalia…) a favor by killing some of them, as we believe we did for tens of thousands of Japanese that might have been lost in a land invasion of their home islands had Hiroshima not be killed for their prospective sins. There is little discussion because debate is largely unnecessary; the myth of Hiroshima says expediency wipes away concerns over morality. And with that neatly tucked away in our conscience, all that is left is pondering where to righteously strike next.
> 
> America’s deliberate targeting of civilians, and its post-facto justifications, are clearly not unique, either in World War II, or in the wars before or since. Other nations, including Japan itself, added their own horror to the books, mostly without remorse. But history’s only use of nuclear weapons holds a significant place in infamy, especially on this August 6. America’s lack of introspection over one of the single most destructive days in the history of human warfare continues, with 21st-century consequences.
> Don’t Whitewash the Hiroshima Bombing
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> whos whitewashing
> Im fine with it
> 
> why dont ya ask the japs about mass murdering civilians ....
> 
> We really shined during the firebombing of Tokyo ...now that was some real death and destruction
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The ugly American. We have too many like you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So youll just ignore the vicious Japanese and the millions of civilians they slaughtered and experimented on
> CHeck
> 
> so much for you have any morals whatsoever
> 
> what would you of have them done back then ? bent over ?
> 
> candlelight vigil ? are you the type of retard that goes to candlelight vigils to hug muslims after they kill 3000 people ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> These types of idiots, both on the right and left, think that if America stayed home and hid under their beds, everything would be fine in the world and nobody would bother them or something, despite all the evidence to the contrary. Of course they don't mind living here and reaping the results of lots of other peoples' sacrifices and then whining about it; they're afraid they will get drafted or something and have to put their own asses on the line for something besides their own self-indulgent whims. They're why I support a draft; that way if they refuse to serve we can deport them, or better yet throw them in the lines first so they can see first hand what fine hapless innocents those they throw Pity Parties for really are. The Japanese were a disgusting vile culture and people, period, and no need to feel bad at all about our winning the wars; their government was popular with the people for decades, including with those Japanese parasites living over here. So yes, Hiroshima Day should be celebrated, with parades and parties; the numbers of American lives saved is uncountable.
Click to expand...

Disgusting


----------



## Deplorable Yankee

Picaro said:


> Deplorable Yankee said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Deplorable Yankee said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Deplorable Yankee said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone who doesn't celebrate is a commie and a homophobic bigot
> 
> Enola was gay ...DERRRR
> 
> View attachment 273146
> 
> 
> 
> Best not to face the truth of the terrible immorality of mass murdering civilians.
> 
> It is said those who live by the sword perish by the sword.
> 
> 
> *Don’t Whitewash the Hiroshima Bombing*
> American foreign policy thus proceeded under a grim calculus that parses acts of violence to conclude some are morally justified simply based on who holds the knife, with much of the history of the next 70 some years a series of immoral acts allegedly servicing, albeit destructively and imperfectly, the moral imperative of saving lives by killing. America’s decisions on war, torture, rendition, and indefinite detention could be explained in character as the distasteful but necessary actions of fundamentally good people against fundamentally evil ones. Hiroshima set in motion a sweeping, national generalization that if we do it, it is right.
> 
> And with that, boom! The steps away from August 6 and the shock-and-awe horrors inside the rubble of Mosul are merely a matter of degree. The drone deaths of children at a wedding party are unfortunate collateral damage in service to the goal of defeating global terrorism. Same as the 3,100 civilians killed from the air since the U.S. launched its coalition war against the Islamic State, along with 3,674civilians destroyed by drone strikes in other parts of the world.
> 
> We are, in fact, able to think we are practically doing the people of Afghanistan (Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Libya, Somalia…) a favor by killing some of them, as we believe we did for tens of thousands of Japanese that might have been lost in a land invasion of their home islands had Hiroshima not be killed for their prospective sins. There is little discussion because debate is largely unnecessary; the myth of Hiroshima says expediency wipes away concerns over morality. And with that neatly tucked away in our conscience, all that is left is pondering where to righteously strike next.
> 
> America’s deliberate targeting of civilians, and its post-facto justifications, are clearly not unique, either in World War II, or in the wars before or since. Other nations, including Japan itself, added their own horror to the books, mostly without remorse. But history’s only use of nuclear weapons holds a significant place in infamy, especially on this August 6. America’s lack of introspection over one of the single most destructive days in the history of human warfare continues, with 21st-century consequences.
> Don’t Whitewash the Hiroshima Bombing
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> whos whitewashing
> Im fine with it
> 
> why dont ya ask the japs about mass murdering civilians ....
> 
> We really shined during the firebombing of Tokyo ...now that was some real death and destruction
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The ugly American. We have too many like you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So youll just ignore the vicious Japanese and the millions of civilians they slaughtered and experimented on
> CHeck
> 
> so much for you have any morals whatsoever
> 
> what would you of have them done back then ? bent over ?
> 
> candlelight vigil ? are you the type of retard that goes to candlelight vigils to hug muslims after they kill 3000 people ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> These types of idiots, both on the right and left, think that if America stayed home and hid under their beds, everything would be fine in the world and nobody would bother them or something, despite all the evidence to the contrary. Of course they don't mind living here and reaping the results of lots of other peoples' sacrifices and then whining about it; they're afraid they will get drafted or something and have to put their own asses on the line for something besides their own self-indulgent whims. They're why I support a draft; that way if they refuse to serve we can deport them, or better yet throw them in the lines first so they can see first hand what fine hapless innocents those they throw Pity Parties for really are. The Japanese were a disgusting vile culture and people, period, and no need to feel bad at all about our winning the wars; their government was popular with the people for decades, including with those Japanese parasites living over here. So yes, Hiroshima Day should be celebrated, with parades and parties; the numbers of American lives saved is uncountable.
Click to expand...



Im all for being the great neutral ...our 150+ bases around the world could probably be halved ...with stong logistics for naval global operations intact ....we can bomb anyone on the planet from Missouri anyway  \


This was all out war till they surrendered 
The could of surrendered at anytime before the nukes were dropped ..spare me The Japansee culture horse shit 


to bad it was to late to drop one on Berlin

all thorough history civilians have bore the brunt of war ....the only difference between world war 2 and other conflicts is TECH

what makes us so evolved ? 
NOTTA

Youre fighting an all out world war where the axis and japan already made civilians a target.... the only way to respond is in kind..
infrastructure manufacturing and the population thats supporting it and the war effort become legit targets..

Our country was for the most part united and down with the cause 
Even mobsters where helping with the war effort 
and i know my granpas and great uncles weren't sent all over the globe  TO LOSE


Hiltler was planing long range weapons to hit the east coast 
BOY did he wanna bomb NYC


old timers still alive will tell ya they had black outs 
subs patrolled the east coast ..sunk ships 

If hitler could of nuked NY or DC he would of ...the german nuke program stalled and ran into problems  ..we got lucky 

The japs tried to set the western US on fire with balloons


----------



## gipper

Deplorable Yankee said:


> Picaro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Deplorable Yankee said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Deplorable Yankee said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Best not to face the truth of the terrible immorality of mass murdering civilians.
> 
> It is said those who live by the sword perish by the sword.
> 
> 
> *Don’t Whitewash the Hiroshima Bombing*
> American foreign policy thus proceeded under a grim calculus that parses acts of violence to conclude some are morally justified simply based on who holds the knife, with much of the history of the next 70 some years a series of immoral acts allegedly servicing, albeit destructively and imperfectly, the moral imperative of saving lives by killing. America’s decisions on war, torture, rendition, and indefinite detention could be explained in character as the distasteful but necessary actions of fundamentally good people against fundamentally evil ones. Hiroshima set in motion a sweeping, national generalization that if we do it, it is right.
> 
> And with that, boom! The steps away from August 6 and the shock-and-awe horrors inside the rubble of Mosul are merely a matter of degree. The drone deaths of children at a wedding party are unfortunate collateral damage in service to the goal of defeating global terrorism. Same as the 3,100 civilians killed from the air since the U.S. launched its coalition war against the Islamic State, along with 3,674civilians destroyed by drone strikes in other parts of the world.
> 
> We are, in fact, able to think we are practically doing the people of Afghanistan (Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Libya, Somalia…) a favor by killing some of them, as we believe we did for tens of thousands of Japanese that might have been lost in a land invasion of their home islands had Hiroshima not be killed for their prospective sins. There is little discussion because debate is largely unnecessary; the myth of Hiroshima says expediency wipes away concerns over morality. And with that neatly tucked away in our conscience, all that is left is pondering where to righteously strike next.
> 
> America’s deliberate targeting of civilians, and its post-facto justifications, are clearly not unique, either in World War II, or in the wars before or since. Other nations, including Japan itself, added their own horror to the books, mostly without remorse. But history’s only use of nuclear weapons holds a significant place in infamy, especially on this August 6. America’s lack of introspection over one of the single most destructive days in the history of human warfare continues, with 21st-century consequences.
> Don’t Whitewash the Hiroshima Bombing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whos whitewashing
> Im fine with it
> 
> why dont ya ask the japs about mass murdering civilians ....
> 
> We really shined during the firebombing of Tokyo ...now that was some real death and destruction
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The ugly American. We have too many like you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So youll just ignore the vicious Japanese and the millions of civilians they slaughtered and experimented on
> CHeck
> 
> so much for you have any morals whatsoever
> 
> what would you of have them done back then ? bent over ?
> 
> candlelight vigil ? are you the type of retard that goes to candlelight vigils to hug muslims after they kill 3000 people ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> These types of idiots, both on the right and left, think that if America stayed home and hid under their beds, everything would be fine in the world and nobody would bother them or something, despite all the evidence to the contrary. Of course they don't mind living here and reaping the results of lots of other peoples' sacrifices and then whining about it; they're afraid they will get drafted or something and have to put their own asses on the line for something besides their own self-indulgent whims. They're why I support a draft; that way if they refuse to serve we can deport them, or better yet throw them in the lines first so they can see first hand what fine hapless innocents those they throw Pity Parties for really are. The Japanese were a disgusting vile culture and people, period, and no need to feel bad at all about our winning the wars; their government was popular with the people for decades, including with those Japanese parasites living over here. So yes, Hiroshima Day should be celebrated, with parades and parties; the numbers of American lives saved is uncountable.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Im all for being the great neutral ...our 150+ bases around the world could probably be halved ...with stong logistics for naval global operations intact ....we can bomb anyone on the planet from Missouri anyway  \
> 
> 
> This was all out war till they surrendered
> The could of surrendered at anytime before the nukes were dropped ..spare me The Japansee culture horse shit
> 
> 
> to bad it was to late to drop one on Berlin
> 
> all thorough history civilians have bore the brunt of war ....the only difference between world war 2 and other conflicts is TECH
> 
> what makes us so evolved ?
> NOTTA
> 
> Youre fighting an all out world war where the axis and japan already made civilians a target.... the only way to respond is in kind..
> infrastructure manufacturing and the population thats supporting it and the war effort become legit targets..
> 
> Our country was for the most part united and down with the cause
> Even mobsters where helping with the war effort
> and i know my granpas and great uncles weren't sent all over the globe  TO LOSE
> 
> 
> Hiltler was planing long range weapons to hit the east coast
> BOY did he wanna bomb NYC
> 
> 
> old timers still alive will tell ya they had black outs
> subs patrolled the east coast ..sunk ships
> 
> If hitler could of nuked NY or DC he would of ...the german nuke program stalled and ran into problems  ..we got lucky
> 
> The japs tried to set the western US on fire with balloons
Click to expand...

Absurd. 

Get informed before posting. 

Japan was defenseless. They had requested surrender terms numerous times prior to Truman’s war crime. 

THEY WERE NO LONGER A THREAT TO THE USA.


----------



## Picaro

gipper said:


> Picaro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Deplorable Yankee said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Deplorable Yankee said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Best not to face the truth of the terrible immorality of mass murdering civilians.
> 
> It is said those who live by the sword perish by the sword.
> 
> 
> *Don’t Whitewash the Hiroshima Bombing*
> American foreign policy thus proceeded under a grim calculus that parses acts of violence to conclude some are morally justified simply based on who holds the knife, with much of the history of the next 70 some years a series of immoral acts allegedly servicing, albeit destructively and imperfectly, the moral imperative of saving lives by killing. America’s decisions on war, torture, rendition, and indefinite detention could be explained in character as the distasteful but necessary actions of fundamentally good people against fundamentally evil ones. Hiroshima set in motion a sweeping, national generalization that if we do it, it is right.
> 
> And with that, boom! The steps away from August 6 and the shock-and-awe horrors inside the rubble of Mosul are merely a matter of degree. The drone deaths of children at a wedding party are unfortunate collateral damage in service to the goal of defeating global terrorism. Same as the 3,100 civilians killed from the air since the U.S. launched its coalition war against the Islamic State, along with 3,674civilians destroyed by drone strikes in other parts of the world.
> 
> We are, in fact, able to think we are practically doing the people of Afghanistan (Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Libya, Somalia…) a favor by killing some of them, as we believe we did for tens of thousands of Japanese that might have been lost in a land invasion of their home islands had Hiroshima not be killed for their prospective sins. There is little discussion because debate is largely unnecessary; the myth of Hiroshima says expediency wipes away concerns over morality. And with that neatly tucked away in our conscience, all that is left is pondering where to righteously strike next.
> 
> America’s deliberate targeting of civilians, and its post-facto justifications, are clearly not unique, either in World War II, or in the wars before or since. Other nations, including Japan itself, added their own horror to the books, mostly without remorse. But history’s only use of nuclear weapons holds a significant place in infamy, especially on this August 6. America’s lack of introspection over one of the single most destructive days in the history of human warfare continues, with 21st-century consequences.
> Don’t Whitewash the Hiroshima Bombing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whos whitewashing
> Im fine with it
> 
> why dont ya ask the japs about mass murdering civilians ....
> 
> We really shined during the firebombing of Tokyo ...now that was some real death and destruction
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The ugly American. We have too many like you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So youll just ignore the vicious Japanese and the millions of civilians they slaughtered and experimented on
> CHeck
> 
> so much for you have any morals whatsoever
> 
> what would you of have them done back then ? bent over ?
> 
> candlelight vigil ? are you the type of retard that goes to candlelight vigils to hug muslims after they kill 3000 people ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> These types of idiots, both on the right and left, think that if America stayed home and hid under their beds, everything would be fine in the world and nobody would bother them or something, despite all the evidence to the contrary. Of course they don't mind living here and reaping the results of lots of other peoples' sacrifices and then whining about it; they're afraid they will get drafted or something and have to put their own asses on the line for something besides their own self-indulgent whims. They're why I support a draft; that way if they refuse to serve we can deport them, or better yet throw them in the lines first so they can see first hand what fine hapless innocents those they throw Pity Parties for really are. The Japanese were a disgusting vile culture and people, period, and no need to feel bad at all about our winning the wars; their government was popular with the people for decades, including with those Japanese parasites living over here. So yes, Hiroshima Day should be celebrated, with parades and parties; the numbers of American lives saved is uncountable.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Disgusting
Click to expand...


To America hating vermin only. Deport yourself if you're such an unhappy little traitor.


----------



## Picaro

Deplorable Yankee said:


> Picaro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Deplorable Yankee said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Deplorable Yankee said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Best not to face the truth of the terrible immorality of mass murdering civilians.
> 
> It is said those who live by the sword perish by the sword.
> 
> 
> *Don’t Whitewash the Hiroshima Bombing*
> American foreign policy thus proceeded under a grim calculus that parses acts of violence to conclude some are morally justified simply based on who holds the knife, with much of the history of the next 70 some years a series of immoral acts allegedly servicing, albeit destructively and imperfectly, the moral imperative of saving lives by killing. America’s decisions on war, torture, rendition, and indefinite detention could be explained in character as the distasteful but necessary actions of fundamentally good people against fundamentally evil ones. Hiroshima set in motion a sweeping, national generalization that if we do it, it is right.
> 
> And with that, boom! The steps away from August 6 and the shock-and-awe horrors inside the rubble of Mosul are merely a matter of degree. The drone deaths of children at a wedding party are unfortunate collateral damage in service to the goal of defeating global terrorism. Same as the 3,100 civilians killed from the air since the U.S. launched its coalition war against the Islamic State, along with 3,674civilians destroyed by drone strikes in other parts of the world.
> 
> We are, in fact, able to think we are practically doing the people of Afghanistan (Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Libya, Somalia…) a favor by killing some of them, as we believe we did for tens of thousands of Japanese that might have been lost in a land invasion of their home islands had Hiroshima not be killed for their prospective sins. There is little discussion because debate is largely unnecessary; the myth of Hiroshima says expediency wipes away concerns over morality. And with that neatly tucked away in our conscience, all that is left is pondering where to righteously strike next.
> 
> America’s deliberate targeting of civilians, and its post-facto justifications, are clearly not unique, either in World War II, or in the wars before or since. Other nations, including Japan itself, added their own horror to the books, mostly without remorse. But history’s only use of nuclear weapons holds a significant place in infamy, especially on this August 6. America’s lack of introspection over one of the single most destructive days in the history of human warfare continues, with 21st-century consequences.
> Don’t Whitewash the Hiroshima Bombing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whos whitewashing
> Im fine with it
> 
> why dont ya ask the japs about mass murdering civilians ....
> 
> We really shined during the firebombing of Tokyo ...now that was some real death and destruction
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The ugly American. We have too many like you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So youll just ignore the vicious Japanese and the millions of civilians they slaughtered and experimented on
> CHeck
> 
> so much for you have any morals whatsoever
> 
> what would you of have them done back then ? bent over ?
> 
> candlelight vigil ? are you the type of retard that goes to candlelight vigils to hug muslims after they kill 3000 people ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> These types of idiots, both on the right and left, think that if America stayed home and hid under their beds, everything would be fine in the world and nobody would bother them or something, despite all the evidence to the contrary. Of course they don't mind living here and reaping the results of lots of other peoples' sacrifices and then whining about it; they're afraid they will get drafted or something and have to put their own asses on the line for something besides their own self-indulgent whims. They're why I support a draft; that way if they refuse to serve we can deport them, or better yet throw them in the lines first so they can see first hand what fine hapless innocents those they throw Pity Parties for really are. The Japanese were a disgusting vile culture and people, period, and no need to feel bad at all about our winning the wars; their government was popular with the people for decades, including with those Japanese parasites living over here. So yes, Hiroshima Day should be celebrated, with parades and parties; the numbers of American lives saved is uncountable.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Im all for being the great neutral ...our 150+ bases around the world could probably be halved ...with stong logistics for naval global operations intact ....we can bomb anyone on the planet from Missouri anyway  \
> 
> 
> This was all out war till they surrendered
> The could of surrendered at anytime before the nukes were dropped ..spare me The Japansee culture horse shit
> 
> 
> to bad it was to late to drop one on Berlin
> 
> all thorough history civilians have bore the brunt of war ....the only difference between world war 2 and other conflicts is TECH
> 
> what makes us so evolved ?
> NOTTA
> 
> Youre fighting an all out world war where the axis and japan already made civilians a target.... the only way to respond is in kind..
> infrastructure manufacturing and the population thats supporting it and the war effort become legit targets..
> 
> Our country was for the most part united and down with the cause
> Even mobsters where helping with the war effort
> and i know my granpas and great uncles weren't sent all over the globe  TO LOSE
> 
> 
> Hiltler was planing long range weapons to hit the east coast
> BOY did he wanna bomb NYC
> 
> 
> old timers still alive will tell ya they had black outs
> subs patrolled the east coast ..sunk ships
> 
> If hitler could of nuked NY or DC he would of ...the german nuke program stalled and ran into problems  ..we got lucky
> 
> The japs tried to set the western US on fire with balloons
Click to expand...


If we had built those bases at the end of WW I, we wouldn't have had to fight WW II. It' cheaper to have 150 bases than to jump start from nothing, and a lot safer. We don't have the domestic manufacturing capacity we had in WW I And WWII now, either. I like having big carrier task forces and bases around the world, and lots of satellites and lot of mutual defense treaties in place. I can disagree with many of the modern tactics, but not the general strategy. I'm not interested in whether or not the 'locals' love us or not; I've been around and met a lot of the 'locals' around the world up close, and few impressed me as people we need to suck up to.


----------



## mikegriffith1

Deplorable Yankee said:


> So youll just ignore the vicious Japanese and the millions of civilians they slaughtered and experimented on.



You might wanna read my article.

https://miketgriffith.com/files/immoraluse.pdf

And, regarding Pearl Harbor:

https://miketgriffith.com/files/provoked.pdf


----------



## EvilCat Breath

Happy Hiroshima day!  That's HH.  Heil Hitler you must worship Hitler.


----------



## mikegriffith1

A few points:

* Not all Japanese forces were brutal and cruel. Japanese rule in a few places was mild and tolerant. It depended on which general was in charge in the country.

* Many Japanese leaders opposed harsh and cruel measures when they became aware of them, and many Japanese leaders did not learn of the army's cruelty until after the war because of army censorship.

* The death rate of Japanese POWs held by the Soviets was nearly double the death rate of American POWs held by the Japanese.

* We killed hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians, many of them women and children, in our bombing raids on Japan. The numbers of dead and wounded grew even more when we began to use napalm ("fire-bombing"). After November 1944, Japan was virtually defenseless against air attacks. Our air raids lost fewer than 4 percent of their planes.

* FDR, desperate to save Stalin's Soviet Union from collapse, imposed increasingly harsh sanctions on staunchly anti-communist Japan and rejected every Japanese peace offer. Japan only decided to attack Pearl Harbor when it became clear that FDR was not going to accept any of the enormous concessions that Japan was offering in an effort to get the sanctions lifted. Instead of making Japan an ally, FDR provoked them to war. Japan was prepared to invade the Soviet Union, but FDR made sure that didn't happen.

http://miketgriffith.com/files/immoraluse.pdf


----------



## Picaro

mikegriffith1 said:


> A few points:
> 
> * Not all Japanese forces were brutal and cruel. Japanese rule in a few places was mild and tolerant. It depended on which general was in charge in the country.
> 
> * Many Japanese leaders opposed harsh and cruel measures when they became aware of them, and many Japanese leaders did not learn of the army's cruelty until after the war because of army censorship.
> 
> * The death rate of Japanese POWs held by the Soviets was nearly double the death rate of American POWs held by the Japanese.
> 
> * We killed hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians, many of them women and children, in our bombing raids on Japan. The numbers of dead and wounded grew even more when we began to use napalm ("fire-bombing"). After November 1944, Japan was virtually defenseless against air attacks. Our air raids lost fewer than 4 percent of their planes.
> 
> * FDR, desperate to save Stalin's Soviet Union from collapse, imposed increasingly harsh sanctions on staunchly anti-communist Japan and rejected every Japanese peace offer. Japan only decided to attack Pearl Harbor when it became clear that FDR was not going to accept any of the enormous concessions that Japan was offering in an effort to get the sanctions lifted. Instead of making Japan an ally, FDR provoked them to war. Japan was prepared to invade the Soviet Union, but FDR made sure that didn't happen.
> 
> http://miketgriffith.com/files/immoraluse.pdf



Oh my, those poor Japs, abused by Da Ebul FDR; I guess he also sent them training films on  the correct use of pitchforks for loading live babies onto trucks and other Fun Facts of Japanese occupation. All those American POWs were liars, too, forced to perjure themselves by Da Ebul FDR, too. Stalin told him what to do n stuff.


----------



## Deplorable Yankee

gipper said:


> Deplorable Yankee said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Deplorable Yankee said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Deplorable Yankee said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone who doesn't celebrate is a commie and a homophobic bigot
> 
> Enola was gay ...DERRRR
> 
> View attachment 273146
> 
> 
> 
> Best not to face the truth of the terrible immorality of mass murdering civilians.
> 
> It is said those who live by the sword perish by the sword.
> 
> 
> *Don’t Whitewash the Hiroshima Bombing*
> American foreign policy thus proceeded under a grim calculus that parses acts of violence to conclude some are morally justified simply based on who holds the knife, with much of the history of the next 70 some years a series of immoral acts allegedly servicing, albeit destructively and imperfectly, the moral imperative of saving lives by killing. America’s decisions on war, torture, rendition, and indefinite detention could be explained in character as the distasteful but necessary actions of fundamentally good people against fundamentally evil ones. Hiroshima set in motion a sweeping, national generalization that if we do it, it is right.
> 
> And with that, boom! The steps away from August 6 and the shock-and-awe horrors inside the rubble of Mosul are merely a matter of degree. The drone deaths of children at a wedding party are unfortunate collateral damage in service to the goal of defeating global terrorism. Same as the 3,100 civilians killed from the air since the U.S. launched its coalition war against the Islamic State, along with 3,674civilians destroyed by drone strikes in other parts of the world.
> 
> We are, in fact, able to think we are practically doing the people of Afghanistan (Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Libya, Somalia…) a favor by killing some of them, as we believe we did for tens of thousands of Japanese that might have been lost in a land invasion of their home islands had Hiroshima not be killed for their prospective sins. There is little discussion because debate is largely unnecessary; the myth of Hiroshima says expediency wipes away concerns over morality. And with that neatly tucked away in our conscience, all that is left is pondering where to righteously strike next.
> 
> America’s deliberate targeting of civilians, and its post-facto justifications, are clearly not unique, either in World War II, or in the wars before or since. Other nations, including Japan itself, added their own horror to the books, mostly without remorse. But history’s only use of nuclear weapons holds a significant place in infamy, especially on this August 6. America’s lack of introspection over one of the single most destructive days in the history of human warfare continues, with 21st-century consequences.
> Don’t Whitewash the Hiroshima Bombing
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> whos whitewashing
> Im fine with it
> 
> why dont ya ask the japs about mass murdering civilians ....
> 
> We really shined during the firebombing of Tokyo ...now that was some real death and destruction
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The ugly American. We have too many like you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So youll just ignore the vicious Japanese and the millions of civilians they slaughtered and experimented on
> CHeck
> 
> so much for you have any morals whatsoever
> 
> what would you of have them done back then ? bent over ?
> 
> candlelight vigil ? are you the type of retard that goes to candlelight vigils to hug muslims after they kill 3000 people ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You have failed miserably.
> 
> First, where have I ever stated anything excusing Japan’s war crimes. Links I posted, which you failed to read and learn from, refer to their war crimes.
> 
> Secondly and more importantly, you fail to comprehend the difference between the magnitude of the US government’s mass murdering of hundreds of thousands of civilians, versus what Japan did.
> 
> Do you really think since they did it, we should too?  What kind of screwed up justification is that?
> 
> Mass murdering civilians of a defenseless nation wanting to surrender, is immoral and unjust.
> 
> Wake up.
Click to expand...



wake up to what 
Your mashing of teeth and crying like a two year old ?


*Secondly and more importantly, you fail to comprehend the difference between the magnitude of the US government’s mass murdering of hundreds of thousands of civilians, versus what Japan did. *

NOt really BUT If you say so 
who you trying to convince ? me or you ?


----------



## Deplorable Yankee

** Not all Japanese forces were brutal and cruel. Japanese rule in a few places was mild and tolerant. It depended on which general was in charge in the country.*

Oh well then ...In a few places they we're kind and humane snuggle bunny's 

 
Awww how sweet 

** We killed hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians, many of them women and children, in our bombing raids on Japan. The numbers of dead and wounded grew even more when we began to use napalm ("fire-bombing"). After November 1944, Japan was virtually defenseless against air attacks. Our air raids lost fewer than 4 percent of their planes.*

SO ?

How many Chinese civilians died at the hands of the righteous huggie bunny  nips hands 

*IT was immoral to drop the bomb* ?

 just your opinion


----------



## gipper

Deplorable Yankee said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Deplorable Yankee said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Deplorable Yankee said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Best not to face the truth of the terrible immorality of mass murdering civilians.
> 
> It is said those who live by the sword perish by the sword.
> 
> 
> *Don’t Whitewash the Hiroshima Bombing*
> American foreign policy thus proceeded under a grim calculus that parses acts of violence to conclude some are morally justified simply based on who holds the knife, with much of the history of the next 70 some years a series of immoral acts allegedly servicing, albeit destructively and imperfectly, the moral imperative of saving lives by killing. America’s decisions on war, torture, rendition, and indefinite detention could be explained in character as the distasteful but necessary actions of fundamentally good people against fundamentally evil ones. Hiroshima set in motion a sweeping, national generalization that if we do it, it is right.
> 
> And with that, boom! The steps away from August 6 and the shock-and-awe horrors inside the rubble of Mosul are merely a matter of degree. The drone deaths of children at a wedding party are unfortunate collateral damage in service to the goal of defeating global terrorism. Same as the 3,100 civilians killed from the air since the U.S. launched its coalition war against the Islamic State, along with 3,674civilians destroyed by drone strikes in other parts of the world.
> 
> We are, in fact, able to think we are practically doing the people of Afghanistan (Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Libya, Somalia…) a favor by killing some of them, as we believe we did for tens of thousands of Japanese that might have been lost in a land invasion of their home islands had Hiroshima not be killed for their prospective sins. There is little discussion because debate is largely unnecessary; the myth of Hiroshima says expediency wipes away concerns over morality. And with that neatly tucked away in our conscience, all that is left is pondering where to righteously strike next.
> 
> America’s deliberate targeting of civilians, and its post-facto justifications, are clearly not unique, either in World War II, or in the wars before or since. Other nations, including Japan itself, added their own horror to the books, mostly without remorse. But history’s only use of nuclear weapons holds a significant place in infamy, especially on this August 6. America’s lack of introspection over one of the single most destructive days in the history of human warfare continues, with 21st-century consequences.
> Don’t Whitewash the Hiroshima Bombing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whos whitewashing
> Im fine with it
> 
> why dont ya ask the japs about mass murdering civilians ....
> 
> We really shined during the firebombing of Tokyo ...now that was some real death and destruction
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The ugly American. We have too many like you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So youll just ignore the vicious Japanese and the millions of civilians they slaughtered and experimented on
> CHeck
> 
> so much for you have any morals whatsoever
> 
> what would you of have them done back then ? bent over ?
> 
> candlelight vigil ? are you the type of retard that goes to candlelight vigils to hug muslims after they kill 3000 people ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You have failed miserably.
> 
> First, where have I ever stated anything excusing Japan’s war crimes. Links I posted, which you failed to read and learn from, refer to their war crimes.
> 
> Secondly and more importantly, you fail to comprehend the difference between the magnitude of the US government’s mass murdering of hundreds of thousands of civilians, versus what Japan did.
> 
> Do you really think since they did it, we should too?  What kind of screwed up justification is that?
> 
> Mass murdering civilians of a defenseless nation wanting to surrender, is immoral and unjust.
> 
> Wake up.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> wake up to what
> Your mashing of teeth and crying like a two year old ?
> 
> 
> *Secondly and more importantly, you fail to comprehend the difference between the magnitude of the US government’s mass murdering of hundreds of thousands of civilians, versus what Japan did. *
> 
> NOt really BUT If you say so
> who you trying to convince ? me or you ?
Click to expand...

Yeah the mass murder of hundreds of thousands of defenseless civilians, is really nothing to get upset about. 

WTF!


----------



## gipper

Deplorable Yankee said:


> ** Not all Japanese forces were brutal and cruel. Japanese rule in a few places was mild and tolerant. It depended on which general was in charge in the country.*
> 
> Oh well then ...In a few places they we're kind and humane snuggle bunny's
> View attachment 273326
> Awww how sweet
> 
> ** We killed hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians, many of them women and children, in our bombing raids on Japan. The numbers of dead and wounded grew even more when we began to use napalm ("fire-bombing"). After November 1944, Japan was virtually defenseless against air attacks. Our air raids lost fewer than 4 percent of their planes.*
> 
> SO ?
> 
> How many Chinese civilians died at the hands of the righteous huggie bunny  nips hands
> 
> *IT was immoral to drop the bomb* ?
> 
> just your opinion


You are disgusted by the atrocities committed by the Japanese Imperial Army (rightly so), but somehow find the mass murder of hundreds of thousands of defenseless Japanese civilians by US bombing, to be entirely acceptable. 

Do you fail to see the hypocrisy?


----------



## mikegriffith1

Picaro said:


> mikegriffith1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> A few points:
> 
> * Not all Japanese forces were brutal and cruel. Japanese rule in a few places was mild and tolerant. It depended on which general was in charge in the country.
> 
> * Many Japanese leaders opposed harsh and cruel measures when they became aware of them, and many Japanese leaders did not learn of the army's cruelty until after the war because of army censorship.
> 
> * The death rate of Japanese POWs held by the Soviets was nearly double the death rate of American POWs held by the Japanese.
> 
> * We killed hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians, many of them women and children, in our bombing raids on Japan. The numbers of dead and wounded grew even more when we began to use napalm ("fire-bombing"). After November 1944, Japan was virtually defenseless against air attacks. Our air raids lost fewer than 4 percent of their planes.
> 
> * FDR, desperate to save Stalin's Soviet Union from collapse, imposed increasingly harsh sanctions on staunchly anti-communist Japan and rejected every Japanese peace offer. Japan only decided to attack Pearl Harbor when it became clear that FDR was not going to accept any of the enormous concessions that Japan was offering in an effort to get the sanctions lifted. Instead of making Japan an ally, FDR provoked them to war. Japan was prepared to invade the Soviet Union, but FDR made sure that didn't happen.
> 
> http://miketgriffith.com/files/immoraluse.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh my, those poor Japs, abused by Da Ebul FDR; I guess he also sent them training films on  the correct use of pitchforks for loading live babies onto trucks and other Fun Facts of Japanese occupation. All those American POWs were liars, too, forced to perjure themselves by Da Ebul FDR, too. Stalin told him what to do n stuff.
Click to expand...


Cherry-picking and exaggeration don't refute facts. FDR definitely pushed the Japanese into war because he was desperate to save Stalin's Russia. He turned down very reasonable, if not extraordinary, Japanese peace offers, and refused to even meet with Prince Konoye (Konoe) to discuss the situation.

As for Japanese occupation, go read Hildi Kang's book _Under the Black Umbrella: Voices from Colonial Korea, 1910–1945_. Kang interviewed hundreds of Koreans who lived under Japanese rule in Korea and was rather stunned to discover that most of them had never experienced cruelty and that quite a few of them said they had no problems with the Japanese. Yes, there were some cases of abuse and cruelty, but these were the exception, not the rule.

Or, read General Elliott Thorpe's book _East Wind, Rain. _Thorpe was certainly no cheerleader for the Japanese, far from it, but even he was willing to admit that the Japanese treated Dutch prisoners from Java better than Sukarno's thugs treated them.

You mentioned American POW accounts. Yes, go read those accounts, because some of them mention Japanese guards who were not cruel or vicious and who did what they could to help the POWs. I again repeat the fact that the death rate among Japanese POWs in Soviets hands was nearly double the death rate of American POWs in Japanese hands.

To be clear, I am not denying that in many cases, many Japanese soldiers behaved in a cruel, vicious, inhumane manner, but such conduct was by no means universal. 

And, while we're at it, we might wanna consider the voluminous evidence that many American soldiers behaved in a cruel and inhumane manner as well, including extracting gold fillings from live Japanese prisoners, executing Japanese prisoners, and shooting at Japanese sailors in the water after their boats had sunk. Our soldiers did not commit as many war crimes as did the Japanese, but they committed quite a few. Read John Dower's famous book _War Without Mercy _and Richard Aldrich's award-winning book _The Far Away War: Personal Diaries of the Second World War in Asia and the Pacific._


----------



## gipper

mikegriffith1 said:


> Picaro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mikegriffith1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> A few points:
> 
> * Not all Japanese forces were brutal and cruel. Japanese rule in a few places was mild and tolerant. It depended on which general was in charge in the country.
> 
> * Many Japanese leaders opposed harsh and cruel measures when they became aware of them, and many Japanese leaders did not learn of the army's cruelty until after the war because of army censorship.
> 
> * The death rate of Japanese POWs held by the Soviets was nearly double the death rate of American POWs held by the Japanese.
> 
> * We killed hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians, many of them women and children, in our bombing raids on Japan. The numbers of dead and wounded grew even more when we began to use napalm ("fire-bombing"). After November 1944, Japan was virtually defenseless against air attacks. Our air raids lost fewer than 4 percent of their planes.
> 
> * FDR, desperate to save Stalin's Soviet Union from collapse, imposed increasingly harsh sanctions on staunchly anti-communist Japan and rejected every Japanese peace offer. Japan only decided to attack Pearl Harbor when it became clear that FDR was not going to accept any of the enormous concessions that Japan was offering in an effort to get the sanctions lifted. Instead of making Japan an ally, FDR provoked them to war. Japan was prepared to invade the Soviet Union, but FDR made sure that didn't happen.
> 
> http://miketgriffith.com/files/immoraluse.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh my, those poor Japs, abused by Da Ebul FDR; I guess he also sent them training films on  the correct use of pitchforks for loading live babies onto trucks and other Fun Facts of Japanese occupation. All those American POWs were liars, too, forced to perjure themselves by Da Ebul FDR, too. Stalin told him what to do n stuff.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Cherry-picking and exaggeration don't refute facts. FDR definitely pushed the Japanese into war because he was desperate to save Stalin's Russia. He turned down very reasonable, if not extraordinary, Japanese peace offers, and refused to even meet with Prince Konoye (Konoe) to discuss the situation.
> 
> As for Japanese occupation, go read Hildi Kang's book _Under the Black Umbrella: Voices from Colonial Korea, 1910–1945_. Kang interviewed hundreds of Koreans who lived under Japanese rule in Korea and was rather stunned to discover that most of them had never experienced cruelty and that quite a few of them said they had no problems with the Japanese. Yes, there were some cases of abuse and cruelty, but these were the exception, not the rule.
> 
> Or, read General Elliott Thorpe's book _East Wind, Rain. _Thorpe was certainly no cheerleader for the Japanese, far from it, but even he was willing to admit that the Japanese treated Dutch prisoners from Java better than Sukarno's thugs treated them.
> 
> You mentioned American POW accounts. Yes, go read those accounts, because some of them mention Japanese guards who were not cruel or vicious and who did what they could to help the POWs. I again repeat the fact that the death rate among Japanese POWs in Soviets hands was nearly double the death rate of American POWs in Japanese hands.
> 
> To be clear, I am not denying that in many cases, many Japanese soldiers behaved in a cruel, vicious, inhumane manner, but such conduct was by no means universal.
> 
> And, while we're at it, we might wanna consider the voluminous evidence that many American soldiers behaved in a cruel and inhumane manner as well, including extracting gold fillings from live Japanese prisoners, executing Japanese prisoners, and shooting at Japanese sailors in the water after their boats had sunk. Our soldiers did not commit as many war crimes as did the Japanese, but they committed quite a few. Read John Dower's famous book _War Without Mercy _and Richard Aldrich's award-winning book _The Far Away War: Personal Diaries of the Second World War in Asia and the Pacific._
Click to expand...

I’m afraid it’s hopeless. Trying to dispel the myths Americans believe about WWII, is damn impossible.


----------



## mikegriffith1

gipper said:


> I’m afraid it’s hopeless. Trying to dispel the myths Americans believe about WWII, is damn impossible.



It is very, very hard, to be sure. Too many people think that admitting we did not need to nuke Japan somehow stains the honor and memory of our soldiers who fought in the Pacific, but they had nothing to do with the decision to use the A-bomb. In fact, many generals and admirals said nuking Japan was wrong and unnecessary, including Admiral Halsey, General (later President) Eisenhower, General MacArthur, General Fellers, Admiral Nimitz, and General Clarke, to name a few.


----------



## Markle

Gipper and Unkotare are simply two busy Trolls.  Gipper really had to work hard to get a few to rise to his bait.

The Japanese people were brainwashed even more so than the German citizens.  The Emperor was their God, a being they worshipped.  He and their leaders had convinced each and every citizen that the allies would rape, torture and murder any and all soldiers captured including all civilians.

Tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of military personnel and committed suicide rather than be captured.  Thousands of mothers were seen cutting the throats of their children, throwing them off cliffs before jumping to their deaths.

The Battle of Okinawa demonstrated the fierceness of the Japanese and how far they would go before giving ground.  The battle was fought from April 1 to June 22, 1945.  U.S. troops suffered nearly 50,000 casualties of which approximately one quarter were deaths. *The Japanese, on the other hand, lost about 100,000 of 110,000 men.  The largest amphibious campaign of the Pacific War also claimed heavy civilian casualties as an estimated 100,000 civilians were killed by the end of the campaign. *According to many historians, the Battle of Okinawa had a major influence on the US decision to drop atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki as it clearly revealed that the invasion of Japan would claim huge casualties on both sides.
List of 10 Greatest Battles of the Pacific War - History Lists

Yes, Japan had put out feelers about surrender but their terms were unacceptable.  They demanded that the US NOT occupy their country and that the Emperor remain in power.  Those terms were totally, and justifiably unacceptable.  After Hiroshima, we demanded unconditional surrender to which they refused to respond.  After Nagasaki, the vote to surrender was tied and it was Emperor Hirohito himself who broke the tie.

Anyone who doesn't realize that the two bombs saved millions of lives, is delusional, living in a fairy tale world or are simply Trolls eager to wrestle in the mud.


----------



## gipper

mikegriffith1 said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> I’m afraid it’s hopeless. Trying to dispel the myths Americans believe about WWII, is damn impossible.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is very, very hard, to be sure. Too many people think that admitting we did not need to nuke Japan somehow stains the honor and memory of our soldiers who fought in the Pacific, but they had nothing to do with the decision to use the A-bomb. In fact, many generals and admirals said nuking Japan was wrong and unnecessary, including Admiral Halsey, General (later President) Eisenhower, General MacArthur, General Fellers, Admiral Nimitz, and General Clarke, to name a few.
Click to expand...

Yes. Just about everyone around Truman who knew about the bomb, told him not to do it. However, he ignored them and chose to accept advice of his long time friend James Byrnes, his future Secretary of State. 

The American fighting man was merely a pawn in the big game, played out by corrupt politicians. As in all our wars. 

Truman knew the Japanese wanted to surrender in May. He knew they were defenseless and incapable of offensive action. All the Japanese asked for was we leave the Emperor alone, which Dirty Harry did AFTER he mass murdered hundreds of thousands of civilians. 

*Bombing Hiroshima changed the world, but it didn’t end WWII*
Truman exulted in the obliteration of Hiroshima, calling it “the greatest thing in history.” America’s military leaders didn’t share his exuberance. Seven of America’s eight five-star officers in 1945 — Gens. Dwight Eisenhower, Douglas MacArthur and Henry Arnold, and Adms. William Leahy, Chester Nimitz, Ernest King and William Halsey — later called the atomic bombings either militarily unnecessary, morally reprehensible, or both. Nor did the bombs succeed in their collateral purpose: cowing the Soviets.

Leahy, who was Truman’s personal chief of staff, wrote in his memoir that the “Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender…. The use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan.” MacArthur went further. He told former President Hoover that if the United States had assured the Japanese that they could keep the emperor they would have gladly surrendered in late May.
Bombing Hiroshima changed the world, but it didn't end WWII


----------



## gipper

Markle said:


> Gipper and Unkotare are simply two busy Trolls.  Gipper really had to work hard to get a few to rise to his bait.
> 
> The Japanese people were brainwashed even more so than the German citizens.  The Emperor was their God, a being they worshipped.  He and their leaders had convinced each and every citizen that the allies would rape, torture and murder any and all soldiers captured including all civilians.
> 
> Tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of military personnel and committed suicide rather than be captured.  Thousands of mothers were seen cutting the throats of their children, throwing them off cliffs before jumping to their deaths.
> 
> The Battle of Okinawa demonstrated the fierceness of the Japanese and how far they would go before giving ground.  The battle was fought from April 1 to June 22, 1945.  U.S. troops suffered nearly 50,000 casualties of which approximately one quarter were deaths. *The Japanese, on the other hand, lost about 100,000 of 110,000 men.  The largest amphibious campaign of the Pacific War also claimed heavy civilian casualties as an estimated 100,000 civilians were killed by the end of the campaign. *According to many historians, the Battle of Okinawa had a major influence on the US decision to drop atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki as it clearly revealed that the invasion of Japan would claim huge casualties on both sides.
> List of 10 Greatest Battles of the Pacific War - History Lists
> 
> Yes, Japan had put out feelers about surrender but their terms were unacceptable.  They demanded that the US NOT occupy their country and that the Emperor remain in power.  Those terms were totally, and justifiably unacceptable.  After Hiroshima, we demanded unconditional surrender to which they refused to respond.  After Nagasaki, the vote to surrender was tied and it was Emperor Hirohito himself who broke the tie.
> 
> Anyone who doesn't realize that the two bombs saved millions of lives, is delusional, living in a fairy tale world or are simply Trolls eager to wrestle in the mud.


The myths die hard. 

*Bombing Hiroshima changed the world, but it didn’t end WWII*


----------



## Unkotare

Markle said:


> ....
> 
> The Japanese people were brainwashed even more so than the German citizens. .....




Proof?


----------



## Unkotare

Markle said:


> ... He and their leaders had convinced each and every citizen.....




Proof?


----------



## Unkotare

Markle said:


> .....
> 
> Yes, Japan had put out feelers about surrender but their terms were unacceptable.  .....




The terms were the same as those we ultimately accepted.


----------



## Markle

gipper said:


> Markle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gipper and Unkotare are simply two busy Trolls.  Gipper really had to work hard to get a few to rise to his bait.
> 
> The Japanese people were brainwashed even more so than the German citizens.  The Emperor was their God, a being they worshipped.  He and their leaders had convinced each and every citizen that the allies would rape, torture and murder any and all soldiers captured including all civilians.
> 
> Tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of military personnel and committed suicide rather than be captured.  Thousands of mothers were seen cutting the throats of their children, throwing them off cliffs before jumping to their deaths.
> 
> The Battle of Okinawa demonstrated the fierceness of the Japanese and how far they would go before giving ground.  The battle was fought from April 1 to June 22, 1945.  U.S. troops suffered nearly 50,000 casualties of which approximately one quarter were deaths. *The Japanese, on the other hand, lost about 100,000 of 110,000 men.  The largest amphibious campaign of the Pacific War also claimed heavy civilian casualties as an estimated 100,000 civilians were killed by the end of the campaign. *According to many historians, the Battle of Okinawa had a major influence on the US decision to drop atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki as it clearly revealed that the invasion of Japan would claim huge casualties on both sides.
> List of 10 Greatest Battles of the Pacific War - History Lists
> 
> Yes, Japan had put out feelers about surrender but their terms were unacceptable.  They demanded that the US NOT occupy their country and that the Emperor remain in power.  Those terms were totally, and justifiably unacceptable.  After Hiroshima, we demanded unconditional surrender to which they refused to respond.  After Nagasaki, the vote to surrender was tied and it was Emperor Hirohito himself who broke the tie.
> 
> Anyone who doesn't realize that the two bombs saved millions of lives, is delusional, living in a fairy tale world or are simply Trolls eager to wrestle in the mud.
> 
> 
> 
> The myths die hard.
> 
> *Bombing Hiroshima changed the world, but it didn’t end WWII*
Click to expand...


----------



## gipper

Markle said:


> Gipper and Unkotare are simply two busy Trolls.  Gipper really had to work hard to get a few to rise to his bait.
> 
> The Japanese people were brainwashed even more so than the German citizens.  The Emperor was their God, a being they worshipped.  He and their leaders had convinced each and every citizen that the allies would rape, torture and murder any and all soldiers captured including all civilians.
> 
> Tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of military personnel and committed suicide rather than be captured.  Thousands of mothers were seen cutting the throats of their children, throwing them off cliffs before jumping to their deaths.
> 
> The Battle of Okinawa demonstrated the fierceness of the Japanese and how far they would go before giving ground.  The battle was fought from April 1 to June 22, 1945.  U.S. troops suffered nearly 50,000 casualties of which approximately one quarter were deaths. *The Japanese, on the other hand, lost about 100,000 of 110,000 men.  The largest amphibious campaign of the Pacific War also claimed heavy civilian casualties as an estimated 100,000 civilians were killed by the end of the campaign. *According to many historians, the Battle of Okinawa had a major influence on the US decision to drop atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki as it clearly revealed that the invasion of Japan would claim huge casualties on both sides.
> List of 10 Greatest Battles of the Pacific War - History Lists
> 
> Yes, Japan had put out feelers about surrender but their terms were unacceptable.  They demanded that the US NOT occupy their country and that the Emperor remain in power.  Those terms were totally, and justifiably unacceptable.  After Hiroshima, we demanded unconditional surrender to which they refused to respond.  After Nagasaki, the vote to surrender was tied and it was Emperor Hirohito himself who broke the tie.
> 
> Anyone who doesn't realize that the two bombs saved millions of lives, is delusional, living in a fairy tale world or are simply Trolls eager to wrestle in the mud.


Accepting the truth doesn’t make you a traitor or unpatriotic. It doesn’t minimize the tremendous sacrifices made by the American fighting man. 
It does expose the war crimes committed by Truman, and the propaganda promoted by the criminals in the ruling class. 

*Five myths about the atomic bomb*
_1. The bomb ended the war._
_2. The bomb saved half a million American lives.
3. The only alternative to the bomb was an invasion of Japan.
4. The Japanese were warned before the bomb was dropped.
5. The bomb was timed to gain a diplomatic advantage over Russia and proved a “master card” in early Cold War politics.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...e5-b673-1df005a0fb28_story.html?noredirect=on_


----------



## Markle

Unkotare said:


> Markle said:
> 
> 
> 
> .....
> 
> Yes, Japan had put out feelers about surrender but their terms were unacceptable.  .....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The terms were the same as those we ultimately accepted.
Click to expand...


----------



## Markle

gipper said:


> Markle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gipper and Unkotare are simply two busy Trolls.  Gipper really had to work hard to get a few to rise to his bait.
> 
> The Japanese people were brainwashed even more so than the German citizens.  The Emperor was their God, a being they worshipped.  He and their leaders had convinced each and every citizen that the allies would rape, torture and murder any and all soldiers captured including all civilians.
> 
> Tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of military personnel and committed suicide rather than be captured.  Thousands of mothers were seen cutting the throats of their children, throwing them off cliffs before jumping to their deaths.
> 
> The Battle of Okinawa demonstrated the fierceness of the Japanese and how far they would go before giving ground.  The battle was fought from April 1 to June 22, 1945.  U.S. troops suffered nearly 50,000 casualties of which approximately one quarter were deaths. *The Japanese, on the other hand, lost about 100,000 of 110,000 men.  The largest amphibious campaign of the Pacific War also claimed heavy civilian casualties as an estimated 100,000 civilians were killed by the end of the campaign. *According to many historians, the Battle of Okinawa had a major influence on the US decision to drop atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki as it clearly revealed that the invasion of Japan would claim huge casualties on both sides.
> List of 10 Greatest Battles of the Pacific War - History Lists
> 
> Yes, Japan had put out feelers about surrender but their terms were unacceptable.  They demanded that the US NOT occupy their country and that the Emperor remain in power.  Those terms were totally, and justifiably unacceptable.  After Hiroshima, we demanded unconditional surrender to which they refused to respond.  After Nagasaki, the vote to surrender was tied and it was Emperor Hirohito himself who broke the tie.
> 
> Anyone who doesn't realize that the two bombs saved millions of lives, is delusional, living in a fairy tale world or are simply Trolls eager to wrestle in the mud.
> 
> 
> 
> Accepting the truth doesn’t make you a traitor or unpatriotic. It doesn’t minimize the tremendous sacrifices made by the American fighting man.
> It does expose the war crimes committed by Truman, and the propaganda promoted by the criminals in the ruling class.
> 
> *Five myths about the atomic bomb*
> _1. The bomb ended the war.
> 2. The bomb saved half a million American lives.
> 3. The only alternative to the bomb was an invasion of Japan.
> 4. The Japanese were warned before the bomb was dropped.
> 5. The bomb was timed to gain a diplomatic advantage over Russia and proved a “master card” in early Cold War politics.
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...e5-b673-1df005a0fb28_story.html?noredirect=on_
Click to expand...


----------



## gipper

Markle said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Markle said:
> 
> 
> 
> .....
> 
> Yes, Japan had put out feelers about surrender but their terms were unacceptable.  .....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The terms were the same as those we ultimately accepted.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

You think I’m a liberal.  LMFAO.


----------



## Unkotare

Markle said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Markle said:
> 
> 
> 
> .....
> 
> Yes, Japan had put out feelers about surrender but their terms were unacceptable.  .....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The terms were the same as those we ultimately accepted.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...



Are you admitting to being a liberal?


----------



## Picaro

mikegriffith1 said:


> Picaro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mikegriffith1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> A few points:
> 
> * Not all Japanese forces were brutal and cruel. Japanese rule in a few places was mild and tolerant. It depended on which general was in charge in the country.
> 
> * Many Japanese leaders opposed harsh and cruel measures when they became aware of them, and many Japanese leaders did not learn of the army's cruelty until after the war because of army censorship.
> 
> * The death rate of Japanese POWs held by the Soviets was nearly double the death rate of American POWs held by the Japanese.
> 
> * We killed hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians, many of them women and children, in our bombing raids on Japan. The numbers of dead and wounded grew even more when we began to use napalm ("fire-bombing"). After November 1944, Japan was virtually defenseless against air attacks. Our air raids lost fewer than 4 percent of their planes.
> 
> * FDR, desperate to save Stalin's Soviet Union from collapse, imposed increasingly harsh sanctions on staunchly anti-communist Japan and rejected every Japanese peace offer. Japan only decided to attack Pearl Harbor when it became clear that FDR was not going to accept any of the enormous concessions that Japan was offering in an effort to get the sanctions lifted. Instead of making Japan an ally, FDR provoked them to war. Japan was prepared to invade the Soviet Union, but FDR made sure that didn't happen.
> 
> http://miketgriffith.com/files/immoraluse.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh my, those poor Japs, abused by Da Ebul FDR; I guess he also sent them training films on  the correct use of pitchforks for loading live babies onto trucks and other Fun Facts of Japanese occupation. All those American POWs were liars, too, forced to perjure themselves by Da Ebul FDR, too. Stalin told him what to do n stuff.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Cherry-picking and exaggeration don't refute facts. FDR definitely pushed the Japanese into war because he was desperate to save Stalin's Russia. He turned down very reasonable, if not extraordinary, Japanese peace offers, and refused to even meet with Prince Konoye (Konoe) to discuss the situation.
> 
> As for Japanese occupation, go read Hildi Kang's book _Under the Black Umbrella: Voices from Colonial Korea, 1910–1945_. Kang interviewed hundreds of Koreans who lived under Japanese rule in Korea and was rather stunned to discover that most of them had never experienced cruelty and that quite a few of them said they had no problems with the Japanese. Yes, there were some cases of abuse and cruelty, but these were the exception, not the rule.
> 
> Or, read General Elliott Thorpe's book _East Wind, Rain. _Thorpe was certainly no cheerleader for the Japanese, far from it, but even he was willing to admit that the Japanese treated Dutch prisoners from Java better than Sukarno's thugs treated them.
> 
> You mentioned American POW accounts. Yes, go read those accounts, because some of them mention Japanese guards who were not cruel or vicious and who did what they could to help the POWs. I again repeat the fact that the death rate among Japanese POWs in Soviets hands was nearly double the death rate of American POWs in Japanese hands.
> 
> To be clear, I am not denying that in many cases, many Japanese soldiers behaved in a cruel, vicious, inhumane manner, but such conduct was by no means universal.
> 
> And, while we're at it, we might wanna consider the voluminous evidence that many American soldiers behaved in a cruel and inhumane manner as well, including extracting gold fillings from live Japanese prisoners, executing Japanese prisoners, and shooting at Japanese sailors in the water after their boats had sunk. Our soldiers did not commit as many war crimes as did the Japanese, but they committed quite a few. Read John Dower's famous book _War Without Mercy _and Richard Aldrich's award-winning book _The Far Away War: Personal Diaries of the Second World War in Asia and the Pacific._
Click to expand...


Just you never mind the Japanese atrocities were committed over *decades*, no 'cherry picking' needed, and their people were immensely proud of their racist heroes. Sorry, but th e'Da EBul FDR suckered the poor hapless Jap fascists into war n stuff cuz Stalin told him to' rubbish only sells to Ann Coulter fans, and most of them don't actually believe that lie, they just enjoy trying to sell it like you do. You might want to consider not running around parroting rubbish and try serious posting in a history forum instead the worn out conspiratorial nonsense put out by John Bircher loons..


----------



## Weatherman2020

Happy Nagasaki day!


----------



## Weatherman2020

Unkotare said:


> Billy_Kinetta said:
> 
> 
> 
> The point was to defeat the enemy and end the war with minimal casualties to ourselves.  It succeeded.
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On the contrary, had fdr not ignored overtures for surrender long before, many thousands of American servicemen might not have been killed.
Click to expand...

Zero peace overtures. In fact, the military attempted a coup after the Emperor wanted to surrender after Nagasaki.


----------



## Polishprince

Weatherman2020 said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Billy_Kinetta said:
> 
> 
> 
> The point was to defeat the enemy and end the war with minimal casualties to ourselves.  It succeeded.
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On the contrary, had fdr not ignored overtures for surrender long before, many thousands of American servicemen might not have been killed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Zero peace overtures. In fact, the military attempted a coup after the Emperor wanted to surrender after Nagasaki.
Click to expand...



The Japs did not see there situation as "hopeless" in the least.

Sure,  they realized that they were the underdogs by August 1945.

But they WERE working on new secret weapons themselves that they thought might turn around the war.  And extending the war by forcing America to endure casualties we weren't accustomed to in the Invasion Angle, were hoped to reduce American resolve.


----------



## harmonica

it was necessary--but no need to be happy about it


----------



## Unkotare

Weatherman2020 said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Billy_Kinetta said:
> 
> 
> 
> The point was to defeat the enemy and end the war with minimal casualties to ourselves.  It succeeded.
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On the contrary, had fdr not ignored overtures for surrender long before, many thousands of American servicemen might not have been killed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Zero peace overtures. In fact, the military attempted a coup after the Emperor wanted to surrender after Nagasaki.
Click to expand...



Mountains of evidence of said overtures have been provided over and over again on many threads here.


----------



## Unkotare

Polishprince said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Billy_Kinetta said:
> 
> 
> 
> The point was to defeat the enemy and end the war with minimal casualties to ourselves.  It succeeded.
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On the contrary, had fdr not ignored overtures for surrender long before, many thousands of American servicemen might not have been killed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Zero peace overtures. In fact, the military attempted a coup after the Emperor wanted to surrender after Nagasaki.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The Japs [sic] did not see there situation as "hopeless" in the least.
> 
> Sure,  they realized that they were the underdogs by August 1945.
> 
> But they WERE working on new secret weapons themselves that they thought might turn around the war.  And extending the war by forcing America to endure casualties we weren't accustomed to in the Invasion Angle, were hoped to reduce American resolve.
Click to expand...



You're using your imagination, not history. 

The Japanese population was starving and had long since tired of the war. 

Some people (like those who can't discuss history without using ethnic slurs) who lack the moral courage to face the reality of the decision we made to end the war struggle to imagine any reason that let's them believe "there was no choice!"


----------



## Markle

Weatherman2020 said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Billy_Kinetta said:
> 
> 
> 
> The point was to defeat the enemy and end the war with minimal casualties to ourselves.  It succeeded.
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On the contrary, had fdr not ignored overtures for surrender long before, many thousands of American servicemen might not have been killed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Zero peace overtures. In fact, the military attempted a coup after the Emperor wanted to surrender after Nagasaki.
Click to expand...


100% Accurate!  What a refreshing post!


----------



## Weatherman2020

Unkotare said:


> Polishprince said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Billy_Kinetta said:
> 
> 
> 
> The point was to defeat the enemy and end the war with minimal casualties to ourselves.  It succeeded.
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On the contrary, had fdr not ignored overtures for surrender long before, many thousands of American servicemen might not have been killed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Zero peace overtures. In fact, the military attempted a coup after the Emperor wanted to surrender after Nagasaki.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The Japs [sic] did not see there situation as "hopeless" in the least.
> 
> Sure,  they realized that they were the underdogs by August 1945.
> 
> But they WERE working on new secret weapons themselves that they thought might turn around the war.  And extending the war by forcing America to endure casualties we weren't accustomed to in the Invasion Angle, were hoped to reduce American resolve.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You're using your imagination, not history.
> 
> The Japanese population was starving and had long since tired of the war.
> 
> Some people (like those who can't discuss history without using ethnic slurs) who lack the moral courage to face the reality of the decision we made to end the war struggle to imagine any reason that let's them believe "there was no choice!"
Click to expand...

Citizens may have tired, but the military wanted to fight to the last man standing.


----------



## Markle

Weatherman2020 said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Polishprince said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Billy_Kinetta said:
> 
> 
> 
> The point was to defeat the enemy and end the war with minimal casualties to ourselves.  It succeeded.
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On the contrary, had fdr not ignored overtures for surrender long before, many thousands of American servicemen might not have been killed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Zero peace overtures. In fact, the military attempted a coup after the Emperor wanted to surrender after Nagasaki.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Japs [sic] did not see there situation as "hopeless" in the least.
> 
> Sure,  they realized that they were the underdogs by August 1945.
> 
> But they WERE working on new secret weapons themselves that they thought might turn around the war.  And extending the war by forcing America to endure casualties we weren't accustomed to in the Invasion Angle, were hoped to reduce American resolve.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You're using your imagination, not history.
> 
> The Japanese population was starving and had long since tired of the war.
> 
> Some people (like those who can't discuss history without using ethnic slurs) who lack the moral courage to face the reality of the decision we made to end the war struggle to imagine any reason that let's them believe "there was no choice!"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Citizens may have tired, but the military wanted to fight to the last man standing.
Click to expand...


No, the citizens wanted the fight to continue.  They were convinced by the Emperor on down to the private citizen that the Americans would rape and murder all citizens.

This is a major reason for that belief.

The Battle of Okinawa demonstrated the fierceness of the Japanese and how far they would go before giving ground. The battle was fought from April 1 to June 22, 1945. U.S. troops suffered nearly 50,000 casualties of which approximately one quarter were deaths. *The Japanese, on the other hand, lost about 100,000 of 110,000 men. The largest amphibious campaign of the Pacific War also claimed heavy civilian casualties as an estimated 100,000 civilians were killed by the end of the campaign. *According to many historians, the Battle of Okinawa had a major influence on the US decision to drop atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki as it clearly revealed that the invasion of Japan would claim huge casualties on both sides.
List of 10 Greatest Battles of the Pacific War - History Lists


----------



## Billy_Kinetta

Weatherman2020 said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Polishprince said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Billy_Kinetta said:
> 
> 
> 
> The point was to defeat the enemy and end the war with minimal casualties to ourselves.  It succeeded.
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On the contrary, had fdr not ignored overtures for surrender long before, many thousands of American servicemen might not have been killed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Zero peace overtures. In fact, the military attempted a coup after the Emperor wanted to surrender after Nagasaki.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> The Japs [sic] did not see there situation as "hopeless" in the least.
> 
> Sure,  they realized that they were the underdogs by August 1945.
> 
> But they WERE working on new secret weapons themselves that they thought might turn around the war.  And extending the war by forcing America to endure casualties we weren't accustomed to in the Invasion Angle, were hoped to reduce American resolve.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You're using your imagination, not history.
> 
> The Japanese population was starving and had long since tired of the war.
> 
> Some people (like those who can't discuss history without using ethnic slurs) who lack the moral courage to face the reality of the decision we made to end the war struggle to imagine any reason that let's them believe "there was no choice!"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Citizens may have tired, but the military wanted to fight to the last man standing.
Click to expand...


Bushido had a profound effect on the Japanese military of that time.


----------



## Unkotare

More comic book understanding of history.


----------



## ThunderKiss1965

gipper said:


> A day that shall live in infamy.
> 
> Shame.
> 
> Mass murder of defenseless women and children, is nothing short of the most heinous thing a nation can do.


The invasion of the Japanese mainland would have been a lot worse.


----------



## Unkotare

ThunderKiss1965 said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> A day that shall live in infamy.
> 
> Shame.
> 
> Mass murder of defenseless women and children, is nothing short of the most heinous thing a nation can do.
> 
> 
> 
> The invasion of the Japanese mainland would have been a lot worse.
Click to expand...


That was not the only other option.


----------



## karpenter




----------



## there4eyeM

The anniversary of these atrocities is hardly a 'happy' day.


----------



## karpenter

Look
Everyone Was Leveling Everyone Else's Cities
Kiddies And All
-- Except Our's
These Weren't Even The Deadliest Bombing Raids Of The War
These Were Unique Because It Was One Bomb Each

The Women And Children Were Being Trained To Fight An Invasion
The Japanese War Lords 
Were As Maniacal As Adolph Sending Children Out To Face The Red Army
What About The Psyches Of Our 17-18yr Olds Going In
We Aren't Raised To Be Women/Children Slaughtering Monsters
Those Bombs Helped End The War

And That's That


----------



## gipper

ThunderKiss1965 said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> A day that shall live in infamy.
> 
> Shame.
> 
> Mass murder of defenseless women and children, is nothing short of the most heinous thing a nation can do.
> 
> 
> 
> The invasion of the Japanese mainland would have been a lot worse.
Click to expand...

Why invade?  Are you an imperialist?

The myths will never die, sadly. The ruling class knows they can always dupe a large percentage of the population. It’s easy. 

*Five myths about the atomic bomb*
_1. The bomb ended the war._
_2. The bomb saved half a million American lives.
3. The only alternative to the bomb was an invasion of Japan.
4. The Japanese were warned before the bomb was dropped.
5. The bomb was timed to gain a diplomatic advantage over Russia and proved a “master card” in early Cold War politics.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...e5-b673-1df005a0fb28_story.html?noredirect=on_


----------



## ThunderKiss1965

gipper said:


> ThunderKiss1965 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> A day that shall live in infamy.
> 
> Shame.
> 
> Mass murder of defenseless women and children, is nothing short of the most heinous thing a nation can do.
> 
> 
> 
> The invasion of the Japanese mainland would have been a lot worse.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why invade?  Are you an imperialist?
> 
> The myths will never die, sadly. The ruling class knows they can always dupe a large percentage of the population. It’s easy.
> 
> *Five myths about the atomic bomb*
> _1. The bomb ended the war.
> 2. The bomb saved half a million American lives.
> 3. The only alternative to the bomb was an invasion of Japan.
> 4. The Japanese were warned before the bomb was dropped.
> 5. The bomb was timed to gain a diplomatic advantage over Russia and proved a “master card” in early Cold War politics.
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...e5-b673-1df005a0fb28_story.html?noredirect=on_
Click to expand...


If the Atomic Bomb Had Not Been Used


----------



## gipper

ThunderKiss1965 said:


> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ThunderKiss1965 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gipper said:
> 
> 
> 
> A day that shall live in infamy.
> 
> Shame.
> 
> Mass murder of defenseless women and children, is nothing short of the most heinous thing a nation can do.
> 
> 
> 
> The invasion of the Japanese mainland would have been a lot worse.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why invade?  Are you an imperialist?
> 
> The myths will never die, sadly. The ruling class knows they can always dupe a large percentage of the population. It’s easy.
> 
> *Five myths about the atomic bomb*
> _1. The bomb ended the war.
> 2. The bomb saved half a million American lives.
> 3. The only alternative to the bomb was an invasion of Japan.
> 4. The Japanese were warned before the bomb was dropped.
> 5. The bomb was timed to gain a diplomatic advantage over Russia and proved a “master card” in early Cold War politics.
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...e5-b673-1df005a0fb28_story.html?noredirect=on_
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If the Atomic Bomb Had Not Been Used
Click to expand...

The myth continues in the face of the truth.


----------



## rightwinger

We had the bomb

We were going to win anyway. Was is necessary to kill 100,000 civilians in Hiroshima and then kill 70,000 in Nagasaki a few days later?


----------



## ThunderKiss1965

rightwinger said:


> We had the bomb
> 
> We were going to win anyway. Was is necessary to kill 100,000 civilians in Hiroshima and then kill 70,000 in Nagasaki a few days later?


The Conservative estimates for the land invasion of Japan was 5 million dead civilians with the US taking 200,000 casualties.


----------



## Markle

there4eyeM said:


> The anniversary of these atrocities is hardly a 'happy' day.



Why not?

The two bombs saved hundreds of thousands, if not millions of lives and ended WWII.  How is that not a cause for celebration?


----------



## Markle

rightwinger said:


> We had the bomb
> 
> We were going to win anyway. Was is necessary to kill 100,000 civilians in Hiroshima and then kill 70,000 in Nagasaki a few days later?



As opposed to at least another million deaths between Russia, Japan, and the US over the next year of ruthless fighting.


----------



## harmonica

rightwinger said:


> We had the bomb
> 
> We were going to win anyway. Was is necessary to kill 100,000 civilians in Hiroshima and then kill 70,000 in Nagasaki a few days later?


and wait how long???!!
....the Germans didn't surrender until the Russians were in Berlin--and the Germans did not fight to the death like the Japanese did !!!

..we had already killed hundreds of thousands of civilians BEFORE the Abombs--and they were not surrendering 
..the Abombs saved more than if we invaded
..look at the size of Okinawa--that battle lasted over 2 months 
then look at Japan--HUGE size difference--would've taken a LOOOOOONG time 
...


----------



## gipper

harmonica said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> We had the bomb
> 
> We were going to win anyway. Was is necessary to kill 100,000 civilians in Hiroshima and then kill 70,000 in Nagasaki a few days later?
> 
> 
> 
> and wait how long???!!
> ....the Germans didn't surrender until the Russians were in Berlin--and the Germans did not fight to the death like the Japanese did !!!
> 
> ..we had already killed hundreds of thousands of civilians BEFORE the Abombs--and they were not surrendering
> ..the Abombs saved more than if we invaded
> ..look at the size of Okinawa--that battle lasted over 2 months
> then look at Japan--HUGE size difference--would've taken a LOOOOOONG time
> ...
Click to expand...

No need to invade, unless you are an imperialist.


----------



## harmonica

gipper said:


> harmonica said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> We had the bomb
> 
> We were going to win anyway. Was is necessary to kill 100,000 civilians in Hiroshima and then kill 70,000 in Nagasaki a few days later?
> 
> 
> 
> and wait how long???!!
> ....the Germans didn't surrender until the Russians were in Berlin--and the Germans did not fight to the death like the Japanese did !!!
> 
> ..we had already killed hundreds of thousands of civilians BEFORE the Abombs--and they were not surrendering
> ..the Abombs saved more than if we invaded
> ..look at the size of Okinawa--that battle lasted over 2 months
> then look at Japan--HUGE size difference--would've taken a LOOOOOONG time
> ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No need to invade, unless you are an imperialist.
Click to expand...

then no surrender --DUH


----------



## Unkotare

Markle said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> We had the bomb
> 
> We were going to win anyway. Was is necessary to kill 100,000 civilians in Hiroshima and then kill 70,000 in Nagasaki a few days later?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As opposed to at least another million deaths between Russia, Japan, and the US over the next year of ruthless fighting.
Click to expand...

 
Speculation.


----------



## peach174

gipper said:


> A day that shall live in infamy.
> 
> Shame.
> 
> Mass murder of defenseless women and children, is nothing short of the most heinous thing a nation can do.



It's too bad they believed their Emperor ,rather than the warning fliers the USA dropped .


----------



## Markle

Unkotare said:


> Markle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> We had the bomb
> 
> We were going to win anyway. Was is necessary to kill 100,000 civilians in Hiroshima and then kill 70,000 in Nagasaki a few days later?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As opposed to at least another million deaths between Russia, Japan, and the US over the next year of ruthless fighting.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Speculation.
Click to expand...


Nope.  Just an extension of the fighting and casualties on Okinawa.


----------



## Unkotare

Markle said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Markle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> We had the bomb
> 
> We were going to win anyway. Was is necessary to kill 100,000 civilians in Hiroshima and then kill 70,000 in Nagasaki a few days later?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As opposed to at least another million deaths between Russia, Japan, and the US over the next year of ruthless fighting.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Speculation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nope.  Just an extension of the fighting and casualties on Okinawa.
Click to expand...



Speculation + cultural and historical ignorance.


----------



## peach174

Unkotare said:


> Markle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Markle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> We had the bomb
> 
> We were going to win anyway. Was is necessary to kill 100,000 civilians in Hiroshima and then kill 70,000 in Nagasaki a few days later?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As opposed to at least another million deaths between Russia, Japan, and the US over the next year of ruthless fighting.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Speculation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nope.  Just an extension of the fighting and casualties on Okinawa.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Speculation + cultural and historical ignorance.
Click to expand...


No
Historical facts.


----------



## Unkotare

peach174 said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Markle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Markle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> We had the bomb
> 
> We were going to win anyway. Was is necessary to kill 100,000 civilians in Hiroshima and then kill 70,000 in Nagasaki a few days later?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As opposed to at least another million deaths between Russia, Japan, and the US over the next year of ruthless fighting.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Speculation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nope.  Just an extension of the fighting and casualties on Okinawa.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Speculation + cultural and historical ignorance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No
> Historical facts.
Click to expand...



You don't understand the relationship between Okinawa and the main islands of Japan in those days, do you?


----------



## peach174

Unkotare said:


> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Markle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Markle said:
> 
> 
> 
> As opposed to at least another million deaths between Russia, Japan, and the US over the next year of ruthless fighting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Speculation.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nope.  Just an extension of the fighting and casualties on Okinawa.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Speculation + cultural and historical ignorance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No
> Historical facts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You don't understand the relationship between Okinawa and the main islands of Japan in those days, do you?
Click to expand...


Yes I do.
Do you?

The  USA decision was a political one against some of the military leaders.
The fact was, after the 1st bombing they refused to surrender despite what the military thought.
It was the 2 nd bombing that ended the War.


----------



## Unkotare

peach174 said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Markle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Speculation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nope.  Just an extension of the fighting and casualties on Okinawa.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Speculation + cultural and historical ignorance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No
> Historical facts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You don't understand the relationship between Okinawa and the main islands of Japan in those days, do you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes I do.
> ....
Click to expand...



Ok, what was it?


----------



## peach174

Unkotare said:


> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Markle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nope.  Just an extension of the fighting and casualties on Okinawa.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Speculation + cultural and historical ignorance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No
> Historical facts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You don't understand the relationship between Okinawa and the main islands of Japan in those days, do you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes I do.
> ....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, what was it?
Click to expand...


They never fully adopted the Jap culture.


----------



## Unkotare

peach174 said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Speculation + cultural and historical ignorance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No
> Historical facts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You don't understand the relationship between Okinawa and the main islands of Japan in those days, do you?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes I do.
> ....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, what was it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> They never fully adopted the Jap [sic] culture.
Click to expand...



The word is “Japanese,” and you miss the point (of course).


----------



## Weatherman2020

Sushi and a pint for dinner in celebration tonight.


----------



## the other mike

Third Party said:


> Many saw it as necessary


Many are evil meatheads.


----------



## the other mike

Hiroshima Day 2021: History, significance, facts and impacts
					

Here is all you need to know about Hiroshima Day 2021.




					www.indiatoday.in


----------



## Weatherman2020

Angelo said:


> Hiroshima Day 2021: History, significance, facts and impacts
> 
> 
> Here is all you need to know about Hiroshima Day 2021.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.indiatoday.in


All I need to know is a million Americans lived to see the next Christmas.


----------



## gipper

Weatherman2020 said:


> All I need to know is a million Americans lived to see the next Christmas.


You may know that, but it’s absolutely wrong. Nothing but propaganda to cover for Truman’s heinous war crime. He should have been hung like the Nazis at Nuremberg.


----------



## Likkmee

Weatherman2020 said:


> Don’t screw with America.
> 
> View attachment 273051


Another 49,900 years and it will once again be inhabitable


----------



## whitehall

Nothing wrong with killing civilians to encourage maniacs to surrender.


----------



## Mushroom

Weatherman2020 said:


> All I need to know is a million Americans lived to see the next Christmas.



Not all that far off.

What is considered the most accurate casualty estimate after the Battle of Okinawa was the Shockley Report.  He was asked to prepare it because Secretary Stimson was questioning those that he had been getting from the military.  Especially when most of the ones he had read prior to operations in Saipan, Guadalcanal, Okinawa, and almost every single other campaign in the Pacific were horribly inaccurate and had casualties many times higher.

And his report was sobering to many in the War Department.  He estimated that Operation Downfall (the invasion of the Home Islands) would result in over 2 million Allied casualties, and between half a million and one million Allied deaths.

And the numbers for the Japanese were even more horrific.  With between five and ten million Japanese deaths.

And that is not even counting the suicides.  Over 1,000 Japanese civilians, mostly farmers and fishermen killed themselves and their entire families at Saipan.  Roughly 1 in 25 elected suicide over surrender, and that was among a population of agrarian peasants on an island.  Does anybody really think that the results would have been any different on the much more fanatical home islands?


----------



## Weatherman2020

Likkmee said:


> Another 49,900 years and it will once again be inhabitable


Why are you Leftards always so ignorant about everything?
Hiroshima today:


----------



## Weatherman2020

gipper said:


> You may know that, but it’s absolutely wrong. Nothing but propaganda to cover for Truman’s heinous war crime. He should have been hung like the Nazis at Nuremberg.


Hilarious. What a maroon.
Map showing military targets.


----------



## Unkotare

Mushroom said:


> Not all that far off.
> 
> What is considered the most accurate casualty estimate after the Battle of Okinawa was the Shockley Report.  He was asked to prepare it because Secretary Stimson was questioning those that he had been getting from the military.  Especially when most of the ones he had read prior to operations in Saipan, Guadalcanal, Okinawa, and almost every single other campaign in the Pacific were horribly inaccurate and had casualties many times higher.
> 
> And his report was sobering to many in the War Department.  He estimated that Operation Downfall (the invasion of the Home Islands) would result in over 2 million Allied casualties, and between half a million and one million Allied deaths.
> 
> And the numbers for the Japanese were even more horrific.  With between five and ten million Japanese deaths.
> 
> And that is not even counting the suicides.  Over 1,000 Japanese civilians, mostly farmers and fishermen killed themselves and their entire families at Saipan.  Roughly 1 in 25 elected suicide over surrender, and that was among a population of agrarian peasants on an island.  Does anybody really think that the results would have been any different on the much more fanatical home islands?


If fdr hadn't been such a bloodthirsty bastard none of those battles may have happened at all.


----------



## Flash

Markle said:


> No, the citizens wanted the fight to continue.  They were convinced by the Emperor on down to the private citizen that the Americans would rape and murder all citizens.
> 
> This is a major reason for that belief.
> 
> The Battle of Okinawa demonstrated the fierceness of the Japanese and how far they would go before giving ground. The battle was fought from April 1 to June 22, 1945. U.S. troops suffered nearly 50,000 casualties of which approximately one quarter were deaths. *The Japanese, on the other hand, lost about 100,000 of 110,000 men. The largest amphibious campaign of the Pacific War also claimed heavy civilian casualties as an estimated 100,000 civilians were killed by the end of the campaign. *According to many historians, the Battle of Okinawa had a major influence on the US decision to drop atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki as it clearly revealed that the invasion of Japan would claim huge casualties on both sides.
> List of 10 Greatest Battles of the Pacific War - History Lists




The Battle of Okinawa sealed the fate for the Japs to be nuked.

By then it was certain that the Japs were going to lose.

They could have surrendered and the war would have been over but they didn't do that.  Instead they decided to take a "fight to the last man" approach.  The allies knew further Jap resistance would cause horrific casualties.   

The nukes were a way to quickly end it.

The Japs have nobody to blame but themselves.  They started the goddamn war and they got their asses kicked.  There is a lesson there.  If you don't want your ass kicked don't start something you can't finish.


----------



## Flash

Markle said:


> No, the citizens wanted the fight to continue.  They were convinced by the Emperor on down to the private citizen that the Americans would rape and murder all citizens.


They were wrong, weren't they?  The Americans treated the Japs very well after the war.

Another example of a filthy ass government lying to its people.

Kind of like we are seeing now in the US, huh?


----------



## K9Buck

Flash said:


> The Americans treated the Japs very well after the war.


How the U.S. (MacArthur) transformed Japan after WW 2 was possibly our nation's greatest, non-military, foreign policy success.


----------



## Flash

K9Buck said:


> How the U.S. (MacArthur) transformed Japan after WW 2 was possibly our nation's greatest, non-military, foreign policy success.




It was.

However, a lot more Japs should have been executed for the things that they did during the war and that shithead Emperor should have been hanged in a public square for allowing the brutality.


----------



## K9Buck

Flash said:


> It was.
> 
> However, a lot more Japs should have been executed for the things that they did during the war and that shithead Emperor should have been hanged in a public square for allowing the brutality.


Killing the emperor would have ended badly for us, even if he deserved it.


----------



## gipper

Weatherman2020 said:


> Hilarious. What a maroon.
> Map showing military targets.
> View attachment 522624


Yeah. Kill those defenseless women and children based on a lie. Too stupid.

They had been bombing Japan for many months. Destroyed all  military installations, but somehow they missed this. So many Americans have become blood thirsty idiots. Think for a change.


----------



## Weatherman2020

gipper said:


> Yeah. Kill those defenseless women and children based on a lie. Too stupid.
> 
> They had been bombing Japan for many months. Destroyed all  military installations, but somehow they missed this. So many Americans have become blood thirsty idiots. Think for a change.


Shitforbrains thinks we should not have defended ourselves. Those ‘civilians’ would have died during banzai charges.

Obviously you love evil, especially what Japan did to civilians.


----------



## Weatherman2020

gipper said:


> Yeah. Kill those defenseless women and children based on a lie. Too stupid.
> 
> They had been bombing Japan for many months. Destroyed all  military installations, but somehow they missed this. So many Americans have become blood thirsty idiots. Think for a change.


Ever meet a man who murdered his wife and children because he thought the Americans would do horrible things to them?


----------



## Flash

K9Buck said:


> Killing the emperor would have ended badly for us, even if he deserved it.




I understand and MacArthur did the right thing but a lot more Japs deserved punishment than got it.


----------



## gipper

Weatherman2020 said:


> Shitforbrains thinks we should not have defended ourselves. Those ‘civilians’ would have died during banzai charges.
> 
> Obviously you love evil, especially what Japan did to civilians.


You are the consummate dumb American. Too bad there are so many like you.

It’s very simple my dear simpleton. Mass murdering defenseless women and children is ALWAYS a war crime.

You who hates the D Party supports a D potus mass murdering. Hypocrite!


----------



## Unkotare

whitehall said:


> Nothing wrong with killing civilians to encourage maniacs to surrender.


Would you feel the same way if that reasoning were turned against our nation?


----------



## gipper

whitehall said:


> Nothing wrong with killing civilians to encourage maniacs to surrender.


The maniac was Dirty Harry Truman.


----------



## Unkotare

Flash said:


> I understand and MacArthur did the right thing but a lot more Japanese deserved punishment than got it.


Do you think MacArthur did the right thing when he encouraged fdr to investigate overtures to surrender prior to Yalta?


----------



## Weatherman2020

gipper said:


> You are the consummate dumb American. Too bad there are so many like you.
> 
> It’s very simple my dear simpleton. Mass murdering defenseless women and children is ALWAYS a war crime.
> 
> You who hates the D Party supports a D potus mass murdering. Hypocrite!


Using civilians as a shield is the first war crime if you want to be technical. I have no doubt you think airmen parachuting into Japan we’re treated fairly. 
I have no doubt the women in the rape camps for Japanese soldiers were appreciative. 
I bet you also don’t know about the coup attempt after the 2 nukes to keep the war going.


----------



## harmonica

gipper wrong..it SAVED more lives than if we had to invade


----------



## Anathema

gipper said:


> Mass murder of defenseless women and children, is nothing short of the most heinous thing a nation can do.


As a student of military history and tactics I have to tell you:  There are NO innocents in a war zone; only allies and enemies. If an individual is not a proven ally, they are an enemy; pure and simple.,


----------



## Unkotare

Flash said:


> .....
> 
> They could have surrendered and the war would have been over but they didn't do that.  ...


Overtures to surrender had been floated via the Russians and through Swiss envoys, but the bloodthirsty fdr rejected the notion out of hand.


----------



## harmonica

Third Party it was necessary--we've had mucho threads on it


----------



## harmonica

gipper study!! hHAHAHHAAHAHHAAHH
that's the problem--you think it's like a board game, or classroom study ..........and it's not


----------



## harmonica

Unkotare said:


> Overtures to surrender had been floated via the Russians and through Swiss envoys, but the bloodthirsty fdr rejected the notion out of hand.


bullshit .....even after both bombs, the vote to surrender was tied ......


----------



## Unkotare

harmonica said:


> gipper wrong..it SAVED more lives than if we had to invade


Speculation.


----------



## harmonica

gipper we are not an imperialistic country


----------



## harmonica

gipper said:


> LOL. Why did we need to invade, conquer,and occupy?  No need at all, unless you are an imperialist. Iwo was a total waste. Entirely unnecessary, but it’s no use.


why>?????? gee--there was something going on called --------------------------*-WW2!!!!!!!!!!!!! DUH*


----------



## percysunshine

Weatherman2020 said:


> Don’t screw with America.
> 
> View attachment 273051



Some times extreme measures are necessary to get the Japanese to build a better car than General Motors.


----------



## harmonica

...they were contributing to the war effort--just like Dresden was in Germany


----------



## harmonica

Weatherman2020 even AFTER the bombs, the vote to surrender was tied--then after the Emperor broke the tie, they tried to stop the surrender


----------



## Unkotare

harmonica said:


> bullshit ..... ......


Tell that to MacArthur. He wrote fdr a 47 page letter about it. fdr threw the letter in the garbage (much the same way he considered the Constitution and the lives of US servicemen).


----------



## harmonica

Unkotare said:


> Tell that to MacArthur. He wrote fdr a 47 page letter about it. fdr threw the letter in the garbage (much the same way he considered the Constitution and the lives of US servicemen).


ok, let's just quit after Okinawa, and let the Japanese not even have a cease fire--so SMART!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...and then it's like 1939 all over----Germans never gave unconditional surrender after WW1, and you get WW2


----------



## Unkotare

I wonder if those posting here who are just thrilled about atomic bombings ever gave one thought to the American POWs killed when the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima.


----------



## Unkotare

harmonica said:


> ok, let's just quit after Okinawa, .....


If fdr had any interest in peace, the war might have ended BEFORE Okinawa.


----------



## harmonica

Unkotare said:


> If fdr had any interest in peace, the war might have ended BEFORE Okinawa.


you prove you don't know shit about WW2...I've been reading and researching WW2 longer than you've been alive


----------



## Unkotare

harmonica said:


> you prove you don't know shit about WW2...I've been reading and researching WW2 longer than you've been alive


Guess again, chump.


----------



## harmonica

Unkotare ended before Oki--HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH ...I can't believe you even posted that


----------



## harmonica

Unkotare the vote was TIED 3-3 *AFTER t*he bombs!!!!! and you think they would surrender BEFORE Oki?????!!!
HAHAHHHAHAHHAHAHH - idiocy


----------



## Unkotare

harmonica said:


> Unkotare ended before Oki--HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH ...I can't believe you even posted that



MacArthur informed the bloodthirsty scumbag that overtures to surrender had been sent out prior to his leaving for Yalta.


----------



## harmonica

Unkotare said:


> MacArthur informed the bloodthirsty scumbag that overtures to surrender had been sent out prior to his leaving for Yalta.


what don't you understand about they were NOT surrendering!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????????????


----------



## Unkotare

harmonica said:


> what don't you understand about they were NOT surrendering!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????????????


You are the one who doesn't seem to understand what I have posted. You claim to have been "reading and researching," but it sure doesn't seem that way.


----------



## Flash

Unkotare said:


> Overtures to surrender had been floated via the Russians and through Swiss envoys, but the bloodthirsty fdr rejected the notion out of hand.




But they didn't do it, did they?

They didn't do what they had to do to keep from being nuked, did they?

When the sonofabitches fought almost to the last man at Okinawa then they pretty well sent the message they weren't going to accept unconditional surrender, didn't they?

All they had to do was surrender and they didn't do it.  They knew they were going to lose but they fiddle farted around.  They waited too long, didn't they?  They got their asses nuked.


----------



## harmonica

Flash thank you==plain and simple--common sense


----------



## Flash

harmonica said:


> Flash thank you==plain and simple--common sense


These stupid uneducated Moon Bats like this Unkotare character don't really have any common sense, do they?


----------



## AZrailwhale

gipper said:


> Yeah nuking two cities full of defenseless innocent civilians is the same as bombing a military base that killed no civilians and a fraction on military personnel.
> 
> So thinks the Dumb American.


The Japanese bombed many cities full of innocent civilians.  they raped, murdered and tortured their way through their failed war of conquest.  Japanese civilians simply reaped what their uncivilized military sowed.  No one that faced the Japanese in battle had the slightest bit of sympathy for their casualties.  The Japanese chose to participate in a  war of savagery and deserved far worse than they got in the end.


----------



## harmonica

AZrailwhale good call ..well put


----------



## AZrailwhale

gipper said:


> Silly...it wasn’t necessary to take Iwo. Total waste of men and material, but Americans want to believe the fairytales.


Iwo was needed as a escort fighter base and emergency field for damaged B-29s.  It would have been very useful as a base for Japanese fighters interdicting B-29 raids over Japan.


----------



## RetiredGySgt

gipper said:


> Only those who haven’t bothered to study the event.


Liar


----------



## RetiredGySgt

AZrailwhale said:


> Iwo was needed as a escort fighter base and emergency field for damaged B-29s.  It would have been very useful as a base for Japanese fighters interdicting B-29 raids over Japan.


Iwo Jima was saving air bombers lives long before the island was even secured.


----------



## Unkotare

Flash said:


> But they didn't do it, did they?
> 
> ....


The bloodthirsty fdr rejected the notion out of hand, thus strengthening the position of the hardliners in the Japanese government and undermining those who were considering offering the same terms of surrender that we eventually accepted anyway AFTER incinerating hundreds of thousands of civilians, and AFTER the terrible loss of US servicemen at Iwo Jima, Okinawa and  other battles that might need not ever happened.


----------



## AZrailwhale

gipper said:


> Wrong. Japan had been trying to surrender for months.


Wrong, Japan hadn't been trying to surrender.  A few out of power Japanese politicians had been trying to get Stalin to intercede with the Americans to violate the agreed terms for Japanese surrender.  The best the Japanese were willing to offer was a return to status quo ante of December 5th 1941 leaving the militarists in power, no reductions in the size of the IJA or remaining IJN, Japanese control of any disarmament of it's military, no war crimes trials and Japanese in control of post war Japan.  Those are far better than the Kaiser's Germany got in 1918 and those terms were the seeds of WWII.  None of hte Allies were prepared to consider ANY of those terms.  The Japanese government wasn't prepared to surrender under ANY circumstances, it was stupid enough to believe that if it drowned the American invaders in oceans of Japanese blood, it could get favorable terms.  Even after the nukes the Japanese government was insisting on continuing the war despite having been shown that we could eradicate the population of Japan without suffering more than a few casualties in the Silverplate B-29 crews dropping the nukes.  The official Japanese position on ending the war was literally "death before dishonor".


----------



## Unkotare

Flash said:


> These stupid uneducated Moon Bats like this Unkotare character don't really have any common sense, do they?


"Uneducated"? Do you consider yourself educated?


----------



## Unkotare

AZrailwhale said:


> The Japanese bombed many cities full of innocent civilians.  they raped, murdered and tortured their way through their failed war of conquest.  Japanese civilians simply reaped what their uncivilized military sowed.  No one that faced the Japanese in battle had the slightest bit of sympathy for their casualties.  The Japanese chose to participate in a  war of savagery and deserved far worse than they got in the end.


Quite a few of America's top military leaders of that time disagreed with you. Are you a general or an admiral?


----------



## Unkotare

AZrailwhale said:


> Wrong, Japan hadn't been trying to surrender. ....


Gen. MacArthur disagrees with you. The terms that he informed fdr about turned out to be the very  same as the ones we eventually accepted anyway.


----------



## AZrailwhale

Unkotare said:


> Military leaders _of that day_ came out in opposition to such barbarity. Our enemies at the time certainly acted in barbaric ways during the war, but America is better than that.


NOT leaders that fought the Japanese or who we read in on the expected casualties of the invasion.  The only alternatives to invasion were to blockade and starve the country, resulting millions of civilian and military deaths while the Japanese occupation forces continued to slaughter more ,millions on the Asian mainland, or invading Korea or mainland China and spending hundreds of thousands of American lives and still allowing the IJA to slaughter civilians.  Or a combination of blockade and allowing the Soviets to occupy the entire Asian continent creating even more massive problems than we faced during the cold war.


----------



## AZrailwhale

Unkotare said:


> Gen. MacArthur disagrees with you. The terms that he informed fdr about turned out to be the very  same as the ones we eventually accepted anyway.


Except those terms weren't coming from the Japanese government, but from a powerless and discredited Peace Faction.


----------



## RetiredGySgt

AZrailwhale said:


> Wrong, Japan hadn't been trying to surrender.  A few out of power Japanese politicians had been trying to get Stalin to intercede with the Americans to violate the agreed terms for Japanese surrender.  The best the Japanese were willing to offer was a return to status quo ante of December 5th 1941 leaving the militarists in power, no reductions in the size of the IJA or remaining IJN, Japanese control of any disarmament of it's military, no war crimes trials and Japanese in control of post war Japan.  Those are far better than the Kaiser's Germany got in 1918 and those terms were the seeds of WWII.  None of hte Allies were prepared to consider ANY of those terms.  The Japanese government wasn't prepared to surrender under ANY circumstances, it was stupid enough to believe that if it drowned the American invaders in oceans of Japanese blood, it could get favorable terms.  Even after the nukes the Japanese government was insisting on continuing the war despite having been shown that we could eradicate the population of Japan without suffering more than a few casualties in the Silverplate B-29 crews dropping the nukes.  The official Japanese position on ending the war was literally "death before dishonor".


I  have been telling him and the other Japanese apologists that for years. They don't listen I even have source material that proves the point.


----------



## Flash

Unkotare said:


> "Uneducated"? Do you consider yourself educated?




Not only more educated but I have much more moral clarity.

You have a distorted view of morality and you sure as hell don't know what you are talking about most of the time.


----------



## gipper

RetiredGySgt said:


> Liar


Baby killer.


----------



## Unkotare

AZrailwhale said:


> NOT leaders that fought the Japanese .....


Do you need the list again that has been posted on so many of these threads over and over?


----------



## gipper

Anathema said:


> As a student of military history and tactics I have to tell you:  There are NO innocents in a war zone; only allies and enemies. If an individual is not a proven ally, they are an enemy; pure and simple.,


BS. You believe in total war, yet think our leaders are moral and ethical. The empire has become a warmongering imperialist disaster. Mass murdering defenseless civilians is a war crime. Our corrupt government hung Germans and Japanese for this. Truman should have been hung too.


----------



## Unkotare

Flash said:


> Not only more educated ......


Upon what do  you base that belief, other than the simple fact of disagreeing with me?


----------



## AZrailwhale

mikegriffith1 said:


> Cherry-picking and exaggeration don't refute facts. FDR definitely pushed the Japanese into war because he was desperate to save Stalin's Russia. He turned down very reasonable, if not extraordinary, Japanese peace offers, and refused to even meet with Prince Konoye (Konoe) to discuss the situation.
> 
> As for Japanese occupation, go read Hildi Kang's book _Under the Black Umbrella: Voices from Colonial Korea, 1910–1945_. Kang interviewed hundreds of Koreans who lived under Japanese rule in Korea and was rather stunned to discover that most of them had never experienced cruelty and that quite a few of them said they had no problems with the Japanese. Yes, there were some cases of abuse and cruelty, but these were the exception, not the rule.
> 
> Or, read General Elliott Thorpe's book _East Wind, Rain. _Thorpe was certainly no cheerleader for the Japanese, far from it, but even he was willing to admit that the Japanese treated Dutch prisoners from Java better than Sukarno's thugs treated them.
> 
> You mentioned American POW accounts. Yes, go read those accounts, because some of them mention Japanese guards who were not cruel or vicious and who did what they could to help the POWs. I again repeat the fact that the death rate among Japanese POWs in Soviets hands was nearly double the death rate of American POWs in Japanese hands.
> 
> To be clear, I am not denying that in many cases, many Japanese soldiers behaved in a cruel, vicious, inhumane manner, but such conduct was by no means universal.
> 
> And, while we're at it, we might wanna consider the voluminous evidence that many American soldiers behaved in a cruel and inhumane manner as well, including extracting gold fillings from live Japanese prisoners, executing Japanese prisoners, and shooting at Japanese sailors in the water after their boats had sunk. Our soldiers did not commit as many war crimes as did the Japanese, but they committed quite a few. Read John Dower's famous book _War Without Mercy _and Richard Aldrich's award-winning book _The Far Away War: Personal Diaries of the Second World War in Asia and the Pacific._


If the Japanese occupation troops were so benevolent, how come the Japanese are universally hated by the Koreans even today?


----------



## AZrailwhale

rightwinger said:


> We had the bomb
> 
> We were going to win anyway. Was is necessary to kill 100,000 civilians in Hiroshima and then kill 70,000 in Nagasaki a few days later?


Because the Japanese were still killing civilians, military a POWs all across Japan and the Asian mainland.  Every day the war continued cost more innocent lives to Japanese aggression.


----------



## Unkotare

AZrailwhale said:


> If the Japanese occupation troops were so benevolent, how come the Japanese are universally hated by the Koreans even today?


They are not.


----------



## Weatherman2020

gipper said:


> The maniac was Dirty Harry Truman.


Don’t spend too much time accusing Democrats of war crimes now. Tell us what you would have done. Surrender 12/8/41 or send sternly worded messages of rebuke to Japan.


----------



## AZrailwhale

gipper said:


> Yeah. Kill those defenseless women and children based on a lie. Too stupid.
> 
> They had been bombing Japan for many months. Destroyed all  military installations, but somehow they missed this. So many Americans have become blood thirsty idiots. Think for a change.


There were a number of cities left intact.  Hiroshima and Nagasaki were just two.  Both were military targets.  Hiroshima was the IJN headquarters and a major navy base and Nagasaki was a major arsenal and Army base.


----------



## AZrailwhale

Unkotare said:


> Overtures to surrender had been floated via the Russians and through Swiss envoys, but the bloodthirsty fdr rejected the notion out of hand.


The SOVIETS rejected the overtures.  They were the chief proponents of the Unconditional Surrender policy decided at Yalta.


----------



## Anathema

gipper said:


> Mass murdering defenseless civilians is a war crime.


The extinction of an entire nation or race is perfectly acceptable to protect the life of even a single American serviceman. To believe ANYTHING EKSE is Treason so far as I am concerned.

Totsl War is the ONLY acceptable form of War.


----------



## Weatherman2020

Unkotare said:


> Would you feel the same way if that reasoning were turned against our nation?


The medical experiments on humans by Japan is what? Not worth stopping?

“A special project code-named Maruta used human beings for experiments. Test subjects were gathered from the surrounding population and were sometimes euphemistically referred to as "logs" (丸太, maruta), used in such contexts as "How many logs fell?". This term originated as a joke on the part of the staff because the official cover story for the facility given to the local authorities was that it was a lumber mill. However, in an account by a man who worked as a junior uniformed civilian employee of the Imperial Japanese Army in Unit 731, the project was internally called "Holzklotz", which is a German word for log.[17]In a further parallel, the corpses of "sacrificed" subjects were disposed of by incineration.[18]Researchers in Unit 731 also published some of their results in peer-reviewed journals, writing as though the research had been conducted on non-human primates called "Manchurian monkeys" or "long-tailed monkeys".”


----------



## AZrailwhale

Unkotare said:


> If fdr had any interest in peace, the war might have ended BEFORE Okinawa.


To all intents and purpose the Japanese had lost the war after the Battle of Leyte Gulf.  They were an island nation without a navy.  But they didn't see it that way.  The militarists who controlled Japan were convinced that if they killed enough Americans and spilled enough Japanese blood we would allow them to continue to rule the country and prepare for the next war.


----------



## Weatherman2020

gipper said:


> BS. You believe in total war, yet think our leaders are moral and ethical. The empire has become a warmongering imperialist disaster. Mass murdering defenseless civilians is a war crime. Our corrupt government hung Germans and Japanese for this. Truman should have been hung too.


There were zero civilians in Japan. Every adult and child was trained to defend the homeland to the death.








						There Are No Civilians in Japan | The National WWII Museum | New Orleans
					

Allied military planners faced a bitter truth as they planned for a possible invasion of Japan: there were no distinctions between soldiers and civilians.




					www.nationalww2museum.org


----------



## AZrailwhale

Unkotare said:


> The bloodthirsty fdr rejected the notion out of hand, thus strengthening the position of the hardliners in the Japanese government and undermining those who were considering offering the same terms of surrender that we eventually accepted anyway AFTER incinerating hundreds of thousands of civilians, and AFTER the terrible loss of US servicemen at Iwo Jima, Okinawa and  other battles that might need not ever happened.


The Japanese government had been informed of the Yalta Decree that only unconditional surrender was acceptable to the Allies.  Unconditional surrender was unacceptable to the Japanese government.


----------



## AZrailwhale

Unkotare said:


> Gen. MacArthur disagrees with you. The terms that he informed fdr about turned out to be the very  same as the ones we eventually accepted anyway.


No they weren't.  We occupied Japan, we tried some of their leaders for war crimes, and we disarmed their military; none of which were in the UNOFFICIAL Japanese offer.  The only thing that was in their proposal that we granted was leaving the Emperor on the throne and not charging him with war crimes.  But we emasculated the Emperor and made him as powerless as the Prince of Monaco.  We only did that as a convenience since as a figure head he made MacArthur's job easier.  Mac became the new Japanese emperor in all but name.


----------



## gipper

Weatherman2020 said:


> There were zero civilians in Japan. Every adult and child was trained to defend the homeland to the death.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There Are No Civilians in Japan | The National WWII Museum | New Orleans
> 
> 
> Allied military planners faced a bitter truth as they planned for a possible invasion of Japan: there were no distinctions between soldiers and civilians.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nationalww2museum.org


Oh God you’re a fucking blood thirsty fool.


----------



## gipper

Anathema said:


> The extinction of an entire nation or race is perfectly acceptable to protect the life of even a single American serviceman. To believe ANYTHING EKSE is Treason so far as I am concerned.
> 
> Totsl War is the ONLY acceptable form of War.


Dumb. The idea the bombs saved Americans lives is really dumb. THINK!


----------



## Weatherman2020

gipper said:


> Oh God you’re a fucking blood thirsty fool.


My link is to the National WW2 Museum. It’s fact. 
Im still waiting to hear your strategy.


----------



## gipper

Weatherman2020 said:


> My link is to the National WW2 Museum. It’s fact.
> Im still waiting to hear your strategy.


Strategy for what?


----------



## Weatherman2020

gipper said:


> Dumb. The idea the bombs saved Americans lives is really dumb. THINK!


Over one million American lives, over 30 million Japanese lives saved.


----------



## Weatherman2020

gipper said:


> Strategy for what?


You don’t like nukes, what’s your military strategy?


----------



## gipper

Weatherman2020 said:


> Over one million American lives, over 30 million Japanese lives saved.


Lol. Totally debunked. Stop believing propaganda from a D potus. You don’t believe anything old Joe says. Think!


----------



## gipper

Weatherman2020 said:


> You don’t like nukes, what’s your military strategy?


Strategy for what?


----------



## Weatherman2020

gipper said:


> Strategy for what?


Are you playing stupid or is that just you?


----------



## Weatherman2020

gipper said:


> Lol. Totally debunked. Stop believing propaganda from a D potus. You don’t believe anything old Joe says. Think!


I knew guys who were there. 
How many on each side died on the island of Okinawa?


----------



## RetiredGySgt

Weatherman2020 said:


> Are you playing stupid or is that just you?


that's his schtick he says something and then doesn't defend it.


----------



## gipper

Weatherman2020 said:


> I knew guys who were there.
> How many on each side died on the island of Okinawa?


Means absolutely nothing. We didn’t need to occupy Japan. Only imperialist powers occupy.


----------



## gipper

RetiredGySgt said:


> that's his schtick he says something and then doesn't defend it.


Baby killer!!!


----------



## Colin norris

Weatherman2020 said:


> Don’t screw with America.
> 
> View attachment 273051





Weatherman2020 said:


> Don’t screw with America.
> 
> View attachment 273051





Weatherman2020 said:


> Don’t screw with America.
> 
> 
> View attachment 273051



Have you forgotten about pearl harbour and the defeat in Vietnam? 
Try that with China and see how you go.


----------



## gipper

Weatherman2020 said:


> Are you playing stupid or is that just you?


We know your strategy. Mass murdering defenseless civilians just like a fucking Nazi.


----------



## Weatherman2020

gipper said:


> Lol. Totally debunked. Stop believing propaganda from a D potus. You don’t believe anything old Joe says. Think!


Let me help you.
Island of Okinawa:
77,166 Japanese soldiers dead[6]
over 30,000 Okinawan conscripts killed
~110,000 killed total


14,009[6]–20,195 Americans dead


12,520 killed in action[9]
38,000[10] to 55,162 wounded
That’s just an island. Now multiply to the mainland.


----------



## Weatherman2020

gipper said:


> We know your strategy. Mass murdering defenseless civilians just like a fucking Nazi.


So you’re a coward moron with zero alternatives, you just whine.


----------



## Weatherman2020

Colin norris said:


> Have you forgotten about pearl harbour and the defeat in Vietnam?
> Try that with China and see how you go.


I would like to see China nuked for murdering over 600,000 Americans last year.


----------



## Weatherman2020

gipper said:


> Means absolutely nothing. We didn’t need to occupy Japan. Only imperialist powers occupy.


So you’re happy with Japan experiments on civilians and their infamous rape camps. Tossing babies onto bayonets must really get you off.


----------



## Colin norris

Weatherman2020 said:


> I would like to see China nuked for murdering over 600,000 Americans last year.



You probably would but again, your reason  is false as usual. 
Why didn't trump do it then? No guts? 
You were All convinced they were guilty so why not charge into them like Vietnam and Afghanistan. What's another humiliating defeat amongst idiots.


----------



## yidnar

Dick Foster said:


> Lets celebrate and bomb them again. No wait,  the idiots have already bombed themselves again with Fukushima. Never mind.


nahhh lets invade Canada !


----------



## yidnar

gipper said:


> That’s right, but that in no way excuses Truman for mass murdering defenseless women and children.  It was a war crime then and since.  Numerous officials in the government and military said the A bombings were unnecessary, somehow that never got into the public school textbooks.


democrats have killed over 50 million of the unborn since the end of ww2 .....


----------



## gipper

Weatherman2020 said:


> So you’re happy with Japan experiments on civilians and their infamous rape camps. Tossing babies onto bayonets must really get you off.


Dumb


----------



## gipper

Weatherman2020 said:


> I would like to see China nuked for murdering over 600,000 Americans last year.


Yeah you love mass murdering babies.


----------



## Weatherman2020

gipper said:


> Yeah you love mass murdering babies.


You have no solutions. You just bitch and moan like every Leftard does.


----------



## Weatherman2020

yidnar said:


> democrats have killed over 50 million of the unborn since the end of ww2 .....


Yep, it’s OK to murder babies, just don’t kill any adults who want to murder you.


----------



## Weatherman2020

gipper said:


> We know your strategy. Mass murdering defenseless civilians just like a fucking Nazi.


Shitty dodge, even for you. 
Says a lot about you being fine with what Tojo and Hitler were doing to civilians.


----------



## Anathema

gipper said:


> Dumb. The idea the bombs saved Americans lives is really dumb. THINK


How many Americans DIDNT die in the preparation for and execution of X-Day? How about the weeks and months that would have followed?


----------



## rightwinger

AZrailwhale said:


> Because the Japanese were still killing civilians, military a POWs all across Japan and the Asian mainland.  Every day the war continued cost more innocent lives to Japanese aggression.


I have never seen a report of Japanese slaughtering civilians in 1945

Do you have one?


----------



## Weatherman2020

rightwinger said:


> I have never seen a report of Japanese slaughtering civilians in 1945
> 
> Do you have one?


Ask the 30,000 Okinawans forced to fight Americans. Oh yeah, they died. 
What was Japan doing in China, Korea and Indonesia in 1945?
Oh yeah, murdering civilians.


----------



## toobfreak

Weatherman2020 said:


> Happy Hiroshima Day!​Don’t screw with America.



I'll be celebrating it with a big bang.

I'd invite some of my Japanese friends over for the party but they're not talking to me these days.


----------



## rightwinger

Weatherman2020 said:


> Ask the 30,000 Okinawans forced to fight Americans. Oh yeah, they died.
> What was Japan doing in China, Korea and Indonesia in 1945?
> Oh yeah, murdering civilians.


Not sure they were forced
They died out of patriotism

But Okinawa is a good example. We learned invading Japan would be very costly.  But once we had the bomb and nobody else did……Invasion was no longer necessary


----------



## Weatherman2020

rightwinger said:


> Not sure they were forced
> They died out of patriotism
> 
> But Okinawa is a good example. We learned invading Japan would be very costly.  But once we had the bomb and nobody else did……Invasion was no longer necessary


So you agree there were no civilians then.


----------



## gipper

Anathema said:


> How many Americans DIDNT die in the preparation for and execution of X-Day? How about the weeks and months that would have followed?


You’re not getting this. There was no need to invade and occupy Japan. Accept their surrender and go home.


----------



## RetiredGySgt

rightwinger said:


> I have never seen a report of Japanese slaughtering civilians in 1945
> 
> Do you have one?


the war in China never stopped.


----------



## RetiredGySgt

A


gipper said:


> You’re not getting this. There was no need to invade and occupy Japan. Accept their surrender and go home.


Again, they NEVER offered to surrender.


----------



## rightwinger

Weatherman2020 said:


> So you agree there were no civilians then.


WTF????


----------



## Anathema

gipper said:


> You’re not getting this. There was no need to invade and occupy Japan. Accept their surrender and go home


NO. That was fine for Germany and Italy but not for Japan. Japan needed to be humiliated and punished for their mistake in December of 1941. They needed to be reminded of their true place in the world. The fact that they are not STILL under US rule is disgusting in my mind.


----------



## rightwinger

RetiredGySgt said:


> A
> 
> Again, they NEVER offered to surrender.


We gave them three days


----------



## Weatherman2020

gipper said:


> You’re not getting this. There was no need to invade and occupy Japan. Accept their surrender and go home.


Why would Japan surrender? After 2 nukes the Army attempted a coup to keep the war going.


----------



## whitehall

WW2 strategy was logical enough. Gain enough air superiority to bomb at will and reduce the enemy's civilian population to zombies and their infrastructure to rubble with conventional weapons or nukes if that's what it takes. It worked to a small extent in Bill Clinton's bombing campaign in Yugoslavia but other than that it seems the killing of civilians even in a war where the enemy doesn't wear uniforms is a forgotten strategy. Instead we send out patrols to get shot up and then we hunker down and ask the pentagon (or the CIA) what do do next and then we blame the other political party for the stalemate.


----------



## Unkotare

Weatherman2020 said:


> The medical experiments on humans by Japan is what? Not worth stopping?
> .....


So, the atomic bombs were dropped in revenge for medical experiments? Do you have a link to a document indicating that as the specific justification for specifically targeting and killing civilians?


----------



## Unkotare

Weatherman2020 said:


> Why would Japan surrender? .....


Because they could not win.


----------



## Unkotare

Weatherman2020 said:


> Let me help you.
> Island of Okinawa:
> 77,166 Japanese soldiers dead[6]
> over 30,000 Okinawan conscripts killed
> ~110,000 killed total
> 
> 
> 14,009[6]–20,195 Americans dead
> 
> 
> 12,520 killed in action[9]
> 38,000[10] to 55,162 wounded
> That’s just an island. Now multiply to the mainland.


Imagine if there had never been a Battle of Okinawa.


----------



## AZrailwhale

Unkotare said:


> Because they could not win.


The Japanese knew the war was lost when they lost most of their remaining navy and all their carriers and pilots at Leyte Gulf and they didn't try to surrender.  The Japanese government firmly believed that Americans lacked the fortitude to accept casualties.  They believed that on December 5th, 1941 and never reevaluated their misapprehension.


----------



## Unkotare

AZrailwhale said:


> ....  They believed that on December 5th, 1941 and never reevaluated their misapprehension.


That is not true. Your superficial understanding of the conflict is the stuff of children.


----------



## AZrailwhale

That is not true. Your superficial understanding of the conflict is the stuff of children.
In every battle the Japanese underestimated the American fightman's spirit.  They always thought Yamato-damashii made them superior to the Americans.


----------



## Unkotare

AZrailwhale said:


> That is not true. Your superficial understanding of the conflict is the stuff of children.
> In every battle the Japanese underestimated the American fightman's spirit.  They always thought Yamato-damashii made them superior to the Americans.


"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."


"In the first six to twelve months of a war with the United States and Great Britain I will run wild and win victory upon victory. But then, if the war continues after that, I have no expectation of success."


"Anyone who has seen the auto factories in Detroit and the oil fields in Texas knows that Japan lacks the national power for a naval race with America."


"To fight the United States is like fighting the whole world. But it has been decided. So I will fight the best I can."


"It is like a disease to think that an invincible status has been achieved after being satisfied with the past successful operations."

- Yamamoto


----------



## Unkotare

AZrailwhale said:


> That is not true. Your superficial understanding of the conflict is the stuff of children.
> In every battle the Japanese underestimated the American fightman's spirit.  They always thought Yamato-damashii made them superior to the Americans.


You watch too many cartoons.


----------



## RetiredGySgt

Unkotare said:


> "I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."
> 
> 
> "In the first six to twelve months of a war with the United States and Great Britain I will run wild and win victory upon victory. But then, if the war continues after that, I have no expectation of success."
> 
> 
> "Anyone who has seen the auto factories in Detroit and the oil fields in Texas knows that Japan lacks the national power for a naval race with America."
> 
> 
> "To fight the United States is like fighting the whole world. But it has been decided. So I will fight the best I can."
> 
> 
> "It is like a disease to think that an invincible status has been achieved after being satisfied with the past successful operations."
> 
> - Yamamoto


And? He was ignored by the Army.


----------



## AZrailwhale

Unkotare said:


> "I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."
> 
> 
> "In the first six to twelve months of a war with the United States and Great Britain I will run wild and win victory upon victory. But then, if the war continues after that, I have no expectation of success."
> 
> 
> "Anyone who has seen the auto factories in Detroit and the oil fields in Texas knows that Japan lacks the national power for a naval race with America."
> 
> 
> "To fight the United States is like fighting the whole world. But it has been decided. So I will fight the best I can."
> 
> 
> "It is like a disease to think that an invincible status has been achieved after being satisfied with the past successful operations."
> 
> - Yamamoto


He made all those statements, but he was the only one who believed that.  But even he really didn’t believe it or he would have made more realistic battle plans at Coral Sea and Midway.


----------



## Unkotare

AZrailwhale said:


> He made all those statements, but he was the only one who believed that.  But even he really didn’t believe it or he would have made more realistic battle plans at Coral Sea and Midway.


So, you know his every thought and the thought of every member of the military and government of Japan at the time? Smack yourself in the face for that one. You know you deserve it, Mentok


----------



## RetiredGySgt

Unkotare said:


> So, you know his every thought and the thought of every member of the military and government of Japan at the time? Smack yourself in the face for that one. You know you deserve it, Mentok


We know the leaders of the army thoughts.


----------



## AZrailwhale

So, you know his every thought and the thought of every member of the military and government of Japan at the time? Smack yourself in the face for that one. You know you deserve it, Mentok
It was pretty obvious from their conduct, that no members of the Japanese government, Army and few of the Navy realized what they were up against.  If they had, they never would have picked a fight with the premier industrial giant on the planet.  It shows in things like sending numerically inferior troops with inferior weapons time after time to dislodge the Americans on Guadalcanal, or sending a couple of thousand light infantry to invade and conquer Midway.  Should I go on?


----------



## Unkotare

AZrailwhale said:


> So, you know his every thought and the thought of every member of the military and government of Japan at the time? Smack yourself in the face for that one. You know you deserve it, Mentok
> It was pretty obvious from ......


You know that is not logical. Don't do this to yourself.


----------



## Mushroom

Unkotare said:


> If fdr hadn't been such a bloodthirsty bastard none of those battles may have happened at all.





Unkotare said:


> Overtures to surrender had been floated via the Russians and through Swiss envoys, but the bloodthirsty fdr rejected the notion out of hand.



Actually, many of those were after the defeat of Germany.  You are aware of that, right?

When FDR was already dead.

And the proposal attempts through the Swiss, Swedish, and Soviet governments were complete jokes.  Complete resets to the status quo prior to December 1941.  All allied forces leave lands they occupied, Japan would leave what few they still occupied.  No war crime trials, no sanctions, no occupation.  Oh, and the US did not even return to the Philippines.  It would remain a US-Japanese governed demilitarized zone.

Not a single nation sent those proposals, because they knew the Allies would never accept it.

That would have been like if in January 1991 Saddam tried to forward that he would accept the end of the Gulf War, if all attacks on his country stopped and he kept Northern Kuwait as a protectorate.

Yeah, just because they made a proposal means nothing.  It was a complete garbage proposal that never had a chance of being accepted.  No more than if Hitler had tried that before he decided to try a Walther sandwich.


----------



## Mushroom

AZrailwhale said:


> It was pretty obvious from their conduct, that no members of the Japanese government, Army and few of the Navy realized what they were up against.



Irrelevant.

This is literally a nation that believed they could do anything they wanted.  And many in their top leadership knew it was a folly, but they were ignored.


----------



## Unkotare

Mushroom said:


> ....
> 
> Yeah, just because they made a proposal means nothing.  I....


You can't deny it, so you try to dismiss it. Kind of like what that SOB fdr did.


----------



## Weatherman2020

Unkotare said:


> So, the atomic bombs were dropped in revenge for medical experiments? Do you have a link to a document indicating that as the specific justification for specifically targeting and killing civilians?


Nice spin! My point was letting the Japanese continue their war crimes on civilians instead of stopping them ASAP. 

And you’re ignorant that the Japanese would surrender quickly. Fact remains that even after 2 nukes the Army attempted a coup to keep the war going. And if the coup had succeeded, you tell us how many more civilians of both sides would have died.

Pull the wild hair out of your ass. Just because you’re of Japanese decent doesn’t mean you need to put on your kamikaze outfit and die defending the Emperor every time WW2 Pacific theater is the topic. Hell, I’ve got German and Russian in my genes, and as you know I’m the first in line to attack the crap they pulled in the 20th century.


----------



## Weatherman2020

There were no civilians in Japan in 1945. Women and children were being trained to defend the homeland and to die in the effort.


----------



## yidnar

World War 2 cost the world in lives lost ....glad we have peace with most of the countries we fought against  back then....  considering the many  tragedies of war at least we can be thankful for that peace .


----------



## Markle

gipper said:


> You may know that, but it’s absolutely wrong. Nothing but propaganda to cover for Truman’s heinous war crime. He should have been hung like the Nazis at Nuremberg.


You're one sick puppy.  Who demands millions more casualties when it can be avoided.


----------



## mikegriffith1

It is surprising to see some conservatives cheering Truman's needless, barbaric nuking of anti-communist Japan. Japan did not "mess with America." FDR refused Japan's reasonable peace offers and provoked Japan to attack Pearl Harbor so he could enter WW II and save his beloved Soviet Union. FDR's and Truman's administrations were heavily penetrated with Soviet spies and sympathizers. A top Soviet policy goal was war between America and Japan, and FDR's disastrous pro-Soviet foreign policy toward Japan played a key role in making that goal become tragic reality.

There was absolutely no need to nuke Japan. Japan was prostrate, starving, and was virtually defenseless against air and naval attack.. Truman knew that most of Japan's leaders, including the emperor, wanted to end the war and were willing to surrender on very reasonable terms.


----------



## RetiredGySgt

mikegriffith1 said:


> It is surprising to see some conservatives cheering Truman's needless, barbaric nuking of anti-communist Japan. Japan did not "mess with America." FDR refused Japan's reasonable peace offers and provoked Japan to attack Pearl Harbor so he could enter WW II and save his beloved Soviet Union. FDR's and Truman's administrations were heavily penetrated with Soviet spies and sympathizers. A top Soviet policy goal was war between America and Japan, and FDR's disastrous pro-Soviet foreign policy toward Japan played a key role in making that goal become tragic reality.
> 
> There was absolutely no need to nuke Japan. Japan was prostrate, starving, and was virtually defenseless against air and naval attack.. Truman knew that most of Japan's leaders, including the emperor, wanted to end the war and were willing to surrender on very reasonable terms.


Reasonable? Again for the slow and amazingly STUPID, before the nukes ALL Japan offered was a ceasefire and return to 41 start lines.


----------



## Weatherman2020

mikegriffith1 said:


> It is surprising to see some conservatives cheering Truman's needless, barbaric nuking of anti-communist Japan. Japan did not "mess with America." FDR refused Japan's reasonable peace offers and provoked Japan to attack Pearl Harbor so he could enter WW II and save his beloved Soviet Union. FDR's and Truman's administrations were heavily penetrated with Soviet spies and sympathizers. A top Soviet policy goal was war between America and Japan, and FDR's disastrous pro-Soviet foreign policy toward Japan played a key role in making that goal become tragic reality.
> 
> There was absolutely no need to nuke Japan. Japan was prostrate, starving, and was virtually defenseless against air and naval attack.. Truman knew that most of Japan's leaders, including the emperor, wanted to end the war and were willing to surrender on very reasonable terms.


Another new member of the Ignoramus Club joins in.

One of the primary reasons America is so screwed up today is so many being ignorant of history.


----------



## Flash

AZrailwhale said:


> So, you know his every thought and the thought of every member of the military and government of Japan at the time? Smack yourself in the face for that one. You know you deserve it, Mentok
> It was pretty obvious from their conduct, that no members of the Japanese government, Army and few of the Navy realized what they were up against.  If they had, they never would have picked a fight with the premier industrial giant on the planet.  It shows in things like sending numerically inferior troops with inferior weapons time after time to dislodge the Americans on Guadalcanal, or sending a couple of thousand light infantry to invade and conquer Midway.  Should I go on?




The problem that the stupid Japs had was their entire military was structured like the US Marine Corps.  It was very heavy on combat troops but weak on logistics.  For instance, most of the time they could keep only about 30-40% of their combat aircraft in operation because they didn't have spare parts.  During most of the post Pearl Harbor attack time the average Jap soldier only had about 700 calories of food every day.  Many times a lot less than that.

They started out the war with a first class Navy but we quickly decimated it.  Then they had not much of anything.

They should have surrendered at Okinawa.  It was all over by then except for how many more Japs and Americans were going to die.  But they didn't surrender so they go nuked.  Dumb shits!


----------



## Weatherman2020

RetiredGySgt said:


> Reasonable? Again for the slow and amazingly STUPID, before the nukes ALL Japan offered was a ceasefire and return to 41 start lines.


And after 2 nukes the Army offered war until the last Japanese fell.


----------



## gipper

mikegriffith1 said:


> It is surprising to see some conservatives cheering Truman's needless, barbaric nuking of anti-communist Japan. Japan did not "mess with America." FDR refused Japan's reasonable peace offers and provoked Japan to attack Pearl Harbor so he could enter WW II and save his beloved Soviet Union. FDR's and Truman's administrations were heavily penetrated with Soviet spies and sympathizers. A top Soviet policy goal was war between America and Japan, and FDR's disastrous pro-Soviet foreign policy toward Japan played a key role in making that goal become tragic reality.
> 
> There was absolutely no need to nuke Japan. Japan was prostrate, starving, and was virtually defenseless against air and naval attack.. Truman knew that most of Japan's leaders, including the emperor, wanted to end the war and were willing to surrender on very reasonable terms.


100% correct, but many Americans can’t accept the truth. It’s just too hard for them. They WANT to believe the fairy tale.


----------



## RetiredGySgt

gipper said:


> 100% correct, but many Americans can’t accept the truth. It’s just too hard for them. They WANT to believe the fairy tale.


Revision 101 FDR asked Japan to stop the war in China Japan refused, That is why we worked to curb sales to Japan.


----------



## gipper

RetiredGySgt said:


> Reasonable? Again for the slow and amazingly STUPID, before the nukes ALL Japan offered was a ceasefire and return to 41 start lines.


Wrong as always. I’ve shown you this for years. The army must have removed your brain.

All Japan asked is don’t touch the emperor. This your beloved Dirty Harry agreed to AFTER his massacre of thousands of women and babies.


----------



## gipper

RetiredGySgt said:


> Revision 101 FDR asked Japan to stop the war in China Japan refused, That is why we worked to curb sales to Japan.


You expose yourself as a fool with every post.

Baby killer.


----------



## RetiredGySgt

gipper said:


> Wrong as always. I’ve shown you this for years. The army must have removed your brain.
> 
> All Japan asked is don’t touch the emperor. This your beloved Dirty Harry agreed to AFTER his massacre of thousands of women and babies.


That is a bald face lie I have repeatedly linked to the actual communication sent by Japan to the Soviets.


----------



## Unkotare

Weatherman2020 said:


> ....
> 
> And you’re ignorant that the Japanese would surrender ....











						Clipping from Chicago Tribune - Newspapers.com
					

Clipping found in Chicago Tribune in Chicago, Illinois on Aug 14, 1965.




					www.newspapers.com


----------



## Unkotare

Weatherman2020 said:


> ....Just because you’re of Japanese decent .....


Say what now? You are mistaken.


----------



## Unkotare

Weatherman2020 said:


> There were no civilians in Japan in 1945. .........


You must feel awfully guilty to say something so stupid. Do you know what was one of the militarists' many concerns toward the mid 40s? A general revolt among the public. The public had grown more than tired of the war by 1944 as mass starvation and the obvious fact that the war was a lost cause that could not be papered over by propaganda programs like the one you (like the sucker you are) swallowed many decades later.


----------



## Unkotare

Weatherman2020 said:


> Another new member of the Ignoramus Club joins in.
> 
> One of the primary reasons America is so screwed up today is so many being ignorant of history.


Let me guess: everyone who disagrees with YOU (who are you again?) is "ignorant of history"? You can't even take yourself seriously at this point.


----------



## RetiredGySgt

Unkotare said:


> Let me guess: everyone who disagrees with YOU (who are you again?) is "ignorant of history"? You can't even take yourself seriously at this point.


we ARE NOT the ones citing an obscure news article as some kind of historically significant paper when the ACTUAL GOVERNMENT papers prove it wrong.


----------



## Weatherman2020

Unkotare said:


> Let me guess: everyone who disagrees with YOU (who are you again?) is "ignorant of history"? You can't even take yourself seriously at this point.


No, anyone who disagrees that the atrocities committed by the Japanese in WW2 took place (as evidenced by your disagree emojis and arguing that the war should have dragged on gets the honor of obtains the Medal of Ignorance.
Congrats.


----------



## Unkotare

Weatherman2020 said:


> No, anyone who disagrees that the atrocities committed by the Japanese in WW2 took place .....


No one has denied any such thing.


----------



## Weatherman2020

Unkotare said:


> You must feel awfully guilty to say something so stupid. Do you know what was one of the militarists' many concerns toward the mid 40s? A general revolt among the public. The public had grown more than tired of the war by 1944 as mass starvation and the obvious fact that the war was a lost cause that could not be papered over by propaganda programs like the one you (like the sucker you are) swallowed many decades later.


All tyrants live in paranoid fear, Imperial Japan among them. 
The pics I posted are civilians - almost all women and children- being trained to defend the homeland to their deaths. In April 45 all males 15-60 and all females 12-45 were conscripted and expected to die defending Japan against the impending invasion.

Follow me for more historical insight.


----------



## Weatherman2020

Unkotare said:


> No one has denied any such thing.


Says you who argue Japan should have been allowed to keep China and Korea that they had already conquered prior to 41.


----------



## Unkotare

Weatherman2020 said:


> ....
> The pics I posted are civilians - almost all women and children- being trained ......


The pics you posted were propaganda intended for the domestic audience back in 1940s Japan, not for some dumbass decades later trying desperately to justify a horrific act. Women and children - starving and demoralized - were NOT going to charge US Marines on the beaches, you gullible fool.


----------



## Unkotare

Weatherman2020 said:


> Says you who argue Japan should have been allowed to keep China and Korea that they had already conquered prior to 41.


I have never said any such thing, liar. When you have to resort to such blatant and clumsy dishonesty, you clearly have no real argument left.


----------



## Weatherman2020

gipper said:


> Wrong as always. I’ve shown you this for years. The army must have removed your brain.
> 
> All Japan asked is don’t touch the emperor. This your beloved Dirty Harry agreed to AFTER his massacre of thousands of women and babies.


That’s a lie. A coup was attempted to keep the war going after the 2 nukes.


----------



## Weatherman2020

Unkotare said:


> The pics you posted were propaganda intended for the domestic audience back in 1940s Japan, not for some dumbass decades later trying desperately to justify a horrific act. Women and children - starving and demoralized - were NOT going to charge US Marines on the beaches, you gullible fool.


More uneducated bullshit. Now you deny that Japan formed a civilian militia. I knew 2 guys who occupied Japan after the surrender. To state they wouldn’t die for their emperor is beyond ignorant.


----------



## Weatherman2020

Unkotare said:


> I have never said any such thing, liar. When you have to resort to such blatant and clumsy dishonesty, you clearly have no real argument left.


Your the moron claiming Japan would have surrendered if we never took Okinawa.


----------



## Unkotare

Weatherman2020 said:


> More uneducated bullshit. Now you deny that Japan formed a civilian militia. I knew 2 guys who occupied Japan after the surrender. To state they wouldn’t die for their emperor is beyond ignorant.


You watch too many cartoons, dope.


----------



## Unkotare

Weatherman2020 said:


> Your the moron claiming Japan would have surrendered if we never took Okinawa.


No, I did not say that. Is English your first language?


----------



## RetiredGySgt

Unkotare said:


> I have never said any such thing, liar. When you have to resort to such blatant and clumsy dishonesty, you clearly have no real argument left.


you keep saying the offer made by Japan should have been accepted, that offer was a ceasefire and return to 41 start lines leaving China and Korea in Japanese hands.


----------



## harmonica

Unkotare said:


> Let me guess: everyone who disagrees with YOU (who are you again?) is "ignorant of history"? You can't even take yourself seriously at this point.


Let me guess: everyone who disagrees with YOU (who are you again?) is "ignorant of history"? You can't even take yourself seriously at this point.


----------



## Weatherman2020

Unkotare said:


> Clipping from Chicago Tribune - Newspapers.com
> 
> 
> Clipping found in Chicago Tribune in Chicago, Illinois on Aug 14, 1965.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.newspapers.com


Bullshit negotiations to get favorable terms for Japan with people under Stalin who had no authority. Even when the Soviets asked the Japanese for proof they were serious they got no response back.
Meanwhile the Soviets began their invasion of Japan.


----------



## Weatherman2020

Unkotare said:


> No, I did not say that. Is English your first language?


Spin
Dodge
Lie
Duck
Jump

That’s all everyone one of you history revisionists in this thread can do.


----------



## Unkotare

Weatherman2020 said:


> Your the moron claiming Japan would have surrendered if we never took Okinawa.


*No*, I did _not_ say that. Is English your first language?


----------



## Unkotare

Weatherman2020 said:


> Bullshit negotiations to get favorable terms .....


The same terms we eventually agreed to anyway.


----------



## harmonica

Unkotare you love anything anti-American.......


----------



## Unkotare

Weatherman2020 said:


> Spin
> Dodge
> Lie
> Duck
> Jump
> 
> That’s all everyone one of you history revisionists in this thread can do.


What do you consider "revised" here?


----------



## Unkotare

harmonica said:


> Unkotare you love anything anti-American.......


That is a filthy, offensive lie.


----------



## harmonica

Unkotare you wanted the Japanese to not get punished --anti-American


----------



## Unkotare

harmonica said:


> Unkotare you wanted the Japanese to not get punished --anti-American


You are lying and misrepresenting because you have nothing to say about the topic. It's childish and idiotic, but I wouldn't expect any more from you.


----------



## Mushroom

gipper said:


> All Japan asked is don’t touch the emperor.


That is what their demand was after the finally submitted after 2 bombs were dropped.

They refused to even discuss Potsdam, and the only attempt they ever made prior to August was a return to 191 lines.  But of course with them setting the terms and keeping half the Philippines.

But please, give us a single reference prior to the bomb dropping that showed that they told anybody outside of Japan they were willing to surrender, so long as the Emperor remained.


----------



## harmonica

Unkotare stop LYING!!!!!  you hate America for performing a justified military operation


----------



## Mushroom

Unkotare said:


> No, I did not say that. Is English your first language?


Many many pages earlier you stated that FDR could have negotiated an end to the war, and that Okinawa was not needed.

What, forgetting your own bullshit?



Unkotare said:


> The bloodthirsty fdr rejected the notion out of hand, thus strengthening the position of the hardliners in the Japanese government and undermining those who were considering offering the same terms of surrender that we eventually accepted anyway AFTER incinerating hundreds of thousands of civilians, and AFTER the terrible loss of US servicemen at Iwo Jima, *Okinawa and  other battles that might need not ever happened*.



YOu spin so fast and spit so much random nonsense, that it is no surprise you can not keep it all straight.


----------



## Unkotare

harmonica said:


> Unkotare stop LYING!!!!!  ......


YOU are lying about my position because you are incapable of engaging in a real discussion.


----------



## harmonica

Unkotare you hate white America for performing a justified operation


----------



## Unkotare

Mushroom said:


> Many many pages earlier you stated that FDR could have negotiated an end to the war, and that Okinawa was not needed.
> 
> ......


What I said was that fdr was informed about the possibility of an offer of surrender before he left for Yalta, and that if he had pursued that possibility everything that followed might have turned out differently - including such terrible and costly battles as the one for Okinawa. Upon receiving a missive from MacArthur about said possibility, fdr dismissed the notion out of hand. He was not interested in even the possibility of peace. After all, he had more US servicemen to sacrifice and hundreds of thousands of civilians to kill. When he belatedly rolled into hell, a suitable puppet was installed to carry out his final wishes.


----------



## Unkotare

harmonica said:


> Unkotare you hate white America for performing a justified operation


Stop lying, you clown.


----------



## harmonica

Unkotare you prove to be a hater and a racist......just like Rev Wright--he says the same thing as you about the bombs--and he's a RACIST America hater 








						God Damn America's Media: Rev. Wright's Comment On Hiroshima
					






					www.huffpost.com


----------



## Mushroom

Unkotare 

And where was the offer before Yalta?

Where was the offer after Potsdam?

You keep going on and on about the offer.  What offer?  The insanity of pretending the war never happened?

That was a Japanese fantasy, absolutely nobody would even present that pile of coprolite for them.  That even got Stalin to question if the Japanese leadership was all insane.

Give us a single public announcement they had made that stated they were considering Potsdam.  A single offer extended to anybody that was remotely acceptable.

You never do, but I welcome knowing if there was one.


----------



## harmonica

Mushroom all he does is babble--no proof at all


----------



## Unkotare

harmonica said:


> Unkotare you prove to be a hater and a racist.......


You're nothing but a clown show now, liar. Go laugh to yourself in the corner.


----------



## Mushroom

Here, here is what Japan was trying to get right before August.



> The sole Japanese diplomatic effort sanctioned by the key Japanese leadership was to secure the Soviet Union as a mediator to negotiate an end to the war. That effort ran through Sato. Decoded Japanese cables made American leaders fully aware that none of the Japanese diplomatic or military representatives in Europe who presented themselves as seeking peace on behalf of Japan carried actual sanction.
> 
> Japan’s one authorized diplomatic initiative required two things: 1) concessions that would enlist the Soviets as mediators; and 2) Japanese terms to end the war. Sato relentlessly exposed the fact that Japan never completed either of these two fundamental steps.
> 
> When Togo presented a pledge not to retain Japan’s conquests as “concessions” to secure Soviet mediation, Sato’s scathing reply was “How much effect do you expect our statements regarding the non-annexation and non-possession of territories which we have already lost or are about to lose will have on the Soviet authorities?” He added that mere “abstract statements” on concessions, which he slammed as “pretty little phrases devoid of all connection with reality,” would have no impact on “extremely realistic” Soviet authorities.
> 
> And he then inserted the knife thrust: “If the Japanese empire is really faced with the necessity of terminating the war, we must first of all make up our minds to terminate the war.” Sato thus charged that Japan’s leaders still lacked a real intent to end the war.
> 
> Togo’s reply acknowledged that Tokyo knew securing Soviet services for a proposal to send Prince Fumimaro Konoe, a former prime minister, to Moscow for talks would be difficult. Togo affirmed that Japan would not accept anything like unconditional surrender. Konoe represented the will of the emperor and he would have “positive intentions” to “negotiate details” to set up “a cooperative relationship between Japan and Russia.” Again, Togo only offered more of the “pretty little phrases” Sato had condemned.











						"Pretty Little Phrases": Japanese Diplomacy in 1945 | The National WWII Museum | New Orleans
					

Misguided Japanese diplomacy in 1945 helped to ensure that the war would not have a peaceful end.




					www.nationalww2museum.org
				




This is the insanity of Japan at the end.  Quite literally offering to give up land they had already lost, while promising that they would not invade land they were about to lose.

It was like Hitler raving in his bunker, ordering units around on a pretty map that had ceased to exist weeks before.


----------



## Mushroom

Unkotare said:


> You're nothing but a clown show now, liar. Go laugh to yourself in the corner.


Yet you still can not present anything as evidence, other than a single decades old clipping of anything that any of the Allied Powers would have accepted.


----------



## Unkotare

Mushroom said:


> ....  What offer?  ...











						Clipping from Chicago Tribune - Newspapers.com
					

Clipping found in Chicago Tribune in Chicago, Illinois on Aug 14, 1965.




					www.newspapers.com


----------



## Unkotare

Mushroom said:


> ... A single offer extended to anybody that was remotely acceptable.
> 
> ...


----------



## Mushroom

Unkotare said:


> Clipping from Chicago Tribune - Newspapers.com
> 
> 
> Clipping found in Chicago Tribune in Chicago, Illinois on Aug 14, 1965.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.newspapers.com



You are aware that proves nothing, right?

That is all you ever respond with.  It means nothing, it gives no information, but you have some kind of fetish for it.

Is that what Poopy puts over his head when "playing"?  IS that why you love that one single reference so much, even though it means nothing?


----------



## Mushroom

Unkotare said:


> View attachment 523162


Even their own Ambassador said it was a joke.

That is not moving goalposts.  That is being mentally ill because Japan was literally expecting all the Allied powers to return all captured islands.  ANd remain out of Occupied Territory.

That is not a reasonable demand, that is insanity.


----------



## Unkotare

Mushroom said:


> You are aware that proves nothing, right?
> 
> That is all you ever respond with.  It means nothing, it gives no information, but you have some kind of fetish for it.
> 
> Is that what Poopy puts over his head when "playing"?  IS that why you love that one single reference so much, even though it means nothing?


Maybe you are too young to know what a “newspaper” is, but they don’t work unless you read them. I hope that was helpful.


----------



## Mushroom

Unkotare said:


> Maybe you are too young to know what a “newspaper” is, but they don’t work unless you read them. I hope that was helpful.



And once again, Poopy resorts to insults.

Dude, I was probably living in Japan myself before you were born.  Back when Emperor Showa was still Reigning in fact.  I remember being sad as I watched the ceremonies after he passed.

However, that does not make me blind to what his country was like during his early reign.


----------



## Man of Ethics

Weatherman2020 said:


> Don’t screw with America.
> 
> View attachment 273051


That was one of USA's worst Crimes Against Humanity.


----------



## gipper

Mushroom said:


> That is what their demand was after the finally submitted after 2 bombs were dropped.
> 
> They refused to even discuss Potsdam, and the only attempt they ever made prior to August was a return to 191 lines.  But of course with them setting the terms and keeping half the Philippines.
> 
> But please, give us a single reference prior to the bomb dropping that showed that they told anybody outside of Japan they were willing to surrender, so long as the Emperor remained.


There are multiple attempts to surrender. You’re uninformed as most Americans are.


----------



## Unkotare

Mushroom said:


> ...
> 
> Dude, I was probably living in Japan myself before you were born.  ....


Duuuuude, like, really duuude? So like, duuude, do you know how a newspaper works, duuuuuude?


----------



## gipper

mikegriffith1 said:


> It is surprising to see some conservatives cheering Truman's needless, barbaric nuking of anti-communist Japan. Japan did not "mess with America." FDR refused Japan's reasonable peace offers and provoked Japan to attack Pearl Harbor so he could enter WW II and save his beloved Soviet Union. FDR's and Truman's administrations were heavily penetrated with Soviet spies and sympathizers. A top Soviet policy goal was war between America and Japan, and FDR's disastrous pro-Soviet foreign policy toward Japan played a key role in making that goal become tragic reality.
> 
> There was absolutely no need to nuke Japan. Japan was prostrate, starving, and was virtually defenseless against air and naval attack.. Truman knew that most of Japan's leaders, including the emperor, wanted to end the war and were willing to surrender on very reasonable terms.


To say nothing of the absolutely absurd unconditional surrender requirement asshole FDR imposed and Dirty Harry continued. This alone caused the unnecessary deaths of hundreds of thousands of Japanese and Americans. Somehow this is ignored by ignorant Americans, but they somehow think the a-bombings were justified.


----------



## Weatherman2020

Relative Ethics said:


> That was one of USA's worst Crimes Against Humanity.


Electing Biden was.


----------



## Weatherman2020

gipper said:


> To say nothing of the absolutely absurd unconditional surrender requirement asshole FDR imposed and Dirty Harry continued. This alone caused the unnecessary deaths of hundreds of thousands of Japanese and Americans. Somehow this is ignored by ignorant Americans, but they somehow think the a-bombings were justified.


Yeah, let Japan build up a military again, what could possibly go wrong!


----------



## Weatherman2020

gipper said:


> There are multiple attempts to surrender. You’re uninformed as most Americans are.


Again with the lies. 
Japan wanted to surrender so bad they attempted a coup to keep the war going.


----------



## Weatherman2020

Unkotare said:


> What do you consider "revised" here?


I’ve yet to hear one alternative from any revisionist that didn’t include absurd lies like Japan was about to surrender anyway.
And you constantly shift to cover for your ignorance/lies.


----------



## Death Angel

gipper said:


> A day that shall live in infamy.
> 
> Shame.
> 
> Mass murder of defenseless women and children, is nothing short of the most heinous thing a nation can do.


It's how all wars are won, which is why we havent won any wars since. Do you even know the atrocities of the Japanese people? They were not innocent.


----------



## Unkotare

Weatherman2020 said:


> I’ve yet to hear one alternative from any revisionist that didn’t include absurd lies like Japan was about to surrender anyway.
> And you constantly shift to cover for your ignorance/lies.


You keep saying "revisionist." Exactly what do you see being revised?


----------



## Unkotare

Death Angel said:


> It's how all wars are won, which is why we havent won any wars since. Do you even know the atrocities of the Japanese people? They were not innocent.


So, all the civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki committed atrocities?


----------



## Unkotare

Weatherman2020 said:


> I’ve yet to hear one alternative from any revisionist that didn’t include absurd lies like Japan was about to surrender anyway.
> And you constantly shift to cover for your ignorance/lies.


Who has said "about to"? If you are confident in your position, why would you feel the need to resort to a straw man?


----------



## Unkotare

Weatherman2020 said:


> Again with the lies.
> Japan wanted to surrender so bad they attempted a coup to keep the war going.


There you go again with your 'Big Grip Crayons' understanding of history.


----------



## Markle

gipper said:


> There are multiple attempts to surrender. You’re uninformed as most Americans are.


Japan NEVER offered an unconditional surrender.  They demanded that their Emporer remain in power.


----------



## Unkotare

Markle said:


> Japan NEVER offered an unconditional surrender.  They demanded that their Emporer remain in power.


The condition we agreed to AFTER incinerating hundreds of thousands of civilians.


----------



## Anomalism

Weatherman2020 said:


> I’ve yet to hear one alternative from any revisionist that didn’t include absurd lies like Japan was about to surrender anyway.
> And you constantly shift to cover for your ignorance/lies.


It didn't matter if they surrendered or not. Their air force and navy were decimated. They no longer had the means to be the aggressor against America. By the end we were firebombing their cities with almost no resistance. We could have just left. We had more than proven our point. They never would have fucked with us again even without the nukes.


----------



## Man of Ethics

Unkotare said:


> So, all the civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki committed atrocities?


USA acted worse then Osama bin Laden on 9/11/01.  

American firepower killed 500,000 civilians in Japan, about 1,500,000 civilians in Korea, and at least 1,000,000 civilians in Southeast Asia.


----------



## gipper

Markle said:


> Japan NEVER offered an unconditional surrender.  They demanded that their Emporer remain in power.


No need for unconditional surrender, unless you’re a murderous imperialist.


----------



## gipper

I 


Death Angel said:


> It's how all wars are won, which is why we havent won any wars since. Do you even know the atrocities of the Japanese people? They were not innocent.


I thought we were better than tit-got-tat.


----------



## Markle

gipper said:


> No need for unconditional surrender, unless you’re a murderous imperialist.


  You're right, Japan was a murderous imperialist and the only safe prudent victory was to crush them and force their unconditional surrender.

Thank you!


----------



## Markle

Unkotare said:


> The condition we agreed to AFTER incinerating hundreds of thousands of civilians.


Wrong AGAIN!  He remained as a figurehead but had no control or power going forward.


----------



## Unkotare

Markle said:


> Wrong AGAIN!  He remained as a figurehead but had no control or power going forward.


This is where you go study some history and understand the role of the position for hundreds and hundreds of years.


----------



## RetiredGySgt

Unkotare said:


> The condition we agreed to AFTER incinerating hundreds of thousands of civilians.


No we did not the emperor remained as a FIGUREHEAD nothing more, the Japanese NEVER offered that.


----------



## Markle

RetiredGySgt said:


> No we did not the emperor remained as a FIGUREHEAD nothing more, the Japanese NEVER offered that.


Not unlike the King and/or Queen of England.


----------



## Markle

Unkotare said:


> This is where you go study some history and understand the role of the position for hundreds and hundreds of years.


----------



## mikegriffith1

If you want a trustworthy book that shows that many Japanese soldiers served honorably and did not brutalize or mistreat POWs, read Manny Lawton's book _Some Survived: An Epic Account of Japanese Captivity During World War II_ (the Kindle version is titled _Some Survived: An Eyewitness Account of the Bataan Death March and the Men Who Lived through It_). Lawton survived the Bataan Death March and World War II. He spent three years in Japanese POW camps.

Lawton pulls no punches and spares no adjectives in describing the brutal actions of some Japanese soldiers. But, surprisingly enough, he also describes many cases where other Japanese soldiers treated POWs humanely and even kindly.


----------



## Weatherman2020

Anomalism said:


> It didn't matter if they surrendered or not. Their air force and navy were decimated. They no longer had the means to be the aggressor against America. By the end we were firebombing their cities with almost no resistance. We could have just left. We had more than proven our point. They never would have fucked with us again even without the nukes.


The rape camps, human experiment camps, the murdering of civilians in Korea, China, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, all were continuing.  
Now doubt our men and women held as POW cattle were very appreciative of the war ending ASAP.
It’s just that evildoers like you see no problem with letting evil flourish.


----------



## Weatherman2020

Unkotare said:


> The condition we agreed to AFTER incinerating hundreds of thousands of civilians.


Firebombing is your preferred weapon then.


----------



## Weatherman2020

gipper said:


> No need for unconditional surrender, unless you’re a murderous imperialist.


Evildoers like you love to see evil flourish.


----------



## Weatherman2020

Unkotare said:


> The condition we agreed to AFTER incinerating hundreds of thousands of civilians.


Your dates and facts are all wrong, TEACHER.

‘*Following the bombing of Hiroshima on August 6, 1945* (left), the Japanese government met to consider what to do next.  The emperor had been urging since June that Japan find some way to end the war, but the Japanese Minister of War and the heads of both the Army and the Navy held to their position that Japan should wait and see if arbitration via the Soviet Union might still produce something less than a surrender.  Military leaders also hoped that if they could hold out until the ground invasion of Japan began, they would be able to inflict so many casualties on the Allies that Japan still might win some sort of negotiated settlement.  Next came the virtually simultaneous arrival of news of the *Soviet declaration of war on Japan of August 8, 1945, and the atomic bombing of Nagasaki of the following day.* *Another Imperial Council was held the night of August 9-10*, and this time the vote on surrender was a tie, 3-to-3.  For the first time in a generation, the emperor (right) stepped forward from his normally ceremonial-only role and personally broke the tie, ordering Japan to surrender.  *On August 10, 1945, Japan offered to surrender to the Allies, the only condition being that the emperor be allowed to remain the nominal head of state*.

*TWO DAYS AFTER NAGASAKI *

*On August 12, the United States announced that it would accept the Japanese surrender, making clear in its statement that the emperor could remain in a purely ceremonial capacity only*.  Debate raged within the Japanese government over whether to accept the American terms or fight on.  Meanwhile, *American leaders were growing impatient, and on August 13 conventional air raids resumed on Japan. * Thousands more Japanese civilians died while their leaders delayed.  *The Japanese people learned of the surrender negotiations for the first time when, on August 14, B-29s showered Tokyo with thousands of leaflets containing translated copies of the American reply of August 12. * Later that day, the emperor called another meeting of his cabinet and instructed them to accept the Allied terms immediately, explaining "I cannot endure the thought of letting my people suffer any longer"; if the war did not end "the whole nation would be reduced to ashes."



​The only question remaining now was if Japan's military leaders would allow the emperor to surrender.  Loyalty to the emperor was an absolute in the Japanese military, but so was the refusal to surrender, and now that the two had come into conflict, open rebellion was a possible result.  The emperor recorded a message in which he personally accepted the Allied surrender terms, to be broadcast over Japanese radio the following day.  This way everyone in Japan would know that surrender was the emperor's personal will.  Some within the Japanese military actually attempted to steal this recording before it could be



broadcast, while others attempted a more general military coup in order to seize power and continue the war.  Other elements of the Japanese military remained loyal to the emperor.  The Minister of War, General Anami Korechika, personally supported continuing the war, but he also could not bring himself to openly rebel against his emperor.  The strength of his dilemma was such that he opted for suicide as the only honorable way out.  In the end, his refusal to assist the coup plotters was instrumental in their defeat by elements within the military that remained loyal to the emperor.



​On *August 15, 1945, the emperor's broadcast announcing Japan's surrender was heard via radio all over Japan.*  For most of his subjects, it was the first time that they had ever heard his voice.  The emperor explained that "the war situation has developed not necessarily to Japan's advantage," and that "the enemy has begun to employ a new and most cruel bomb."  Over the next few weeks, Japan and the United States worked out the details of the surrender, and on *September 2, 1945, the formal surrender ceremony took place on the deck of the U.S.S. Missouri.


			Manhattan Project: Japan Surrenders, August 10-15, 1945
		

*


----------



## Unkotare

Weatherman2020 said:


> Your dates and facts are all wrong, .....


They are not, no matter how badly you need to cling to a comfortable narrative.


----------



## RetiredGySgt

Unkotare said:


> They are not, no matter how badly you need to cling to a comfortable narrative.


I am still waiting for even a single concrete verifiable offer made before Japan surrendered.


----------



## elektra

Victory over Japan day, we are celebrating here in Rhode Island. In Moosup Ct. we have a parade today to celebrate. 

The Revisionist, American Marxists, USA Haters, all have their own cherry picked version of history. They must be vague, citing webpages that may refer to a book they never read. They never offer a scholarly piece of research of their own. They may claim or present material but it is typically citing other revisionist garbage that is as poorly researched.

The fact remains, two Nuclear Bombs forced the Japanese Emperor to surrender, while many of the Japanese fought to continue the war. 

Yes, we killed Japanese, who fought as a country, not as individuals, which saved individual Americans lives, who had a right to live, who as a country we were responsible to save.


----------



## Unkotare

elektra said:


> .....
> 
> Yes, we killed Japanese, who fought as a country, not as individuals,...


And if the Germans had developed an ICBM that destroyed American cities, you would have accepted the same reasoning?


----------



## RetiredGySgt

Unkotare said:


> And if the Germans had developed an ICBM that destroyed American cities, you would have accepted the same reasoning?


Germany already indiscriminately bombed cities. If they could have they would have bombed American cities.


----------



## Unkotare

Unkotare said:


> And if the Germans had developed an ICBM that destroyed American cities, you would have accepted the same reasoning?


Hello?


----------



## Jarlaxle

harmonica said:


> bullshit .....even after both bombs, the vote to surrender was tied ......


And surrendering nearly got Hirohito assassinated.


----------



## Jarlaxle

Anathema said:


> NO. That was fine for Germany and Italy but not for Japan. Japan needed to be humiliated and punished for their mistake in December of 1941. They needed to be reminded of their true place in the world. The fact that they are not STILL under US rule is disgusting in my mind.


The fact that neither Germany nor Japan were treated like Carthage was a tracesty.


----------



## Weatherman2020

Unkotare said:


> They are not, no matter how badly you need to cling to a comfortable narrative.


You keep saying Japan offered a peace agreement. Well yes they did. TWO DAYS AFTER NAGASAKI


----------



## Unkotare

Weatherman2020 said:


> You keep saying Japan offered a peace agreement. ...


No I didn't.


----------



## Weatherman2020

gipper said:


> No need for unconditional surrender, unless you’re a murderous imperialist.


Yeah, what Amerikkka did to post war Japan and Germany was one of the worst war crimes in humanity!


----------



## Weatherman2020

Unkotare said:


> No I didn't.


I can’t keep with your editing and deleting posts.
Once again, you claim to never say anything, just whine.


----------



## Unkotare

Weatherman2020 said:


> I can’t keep with your editing and deleting posts.
> Once again, you claim to never say anything, just whine.


I say lots of things. You just need to develop stronger reading skills.


----------



## mikegriffith1

One of the best books on the American debate about the nuking of Japan is Dr. Martin Harwit's book _An Exhibit Denied: Lobbying the History of Enola Gay_ (1996). Dr. Harwit was the director of the Smithsonian Institution when the Air Force Association and the American Legion pressured Congress into forcing the museum to scrap its perfectly factual and balanced exhibit for the 50th anniversary of the atomic bombing of Hiroshima. These veterans groups, presuming to speak for all veterans, simply did not care that the vast majority of scholars who got involved in the controversy supported the museum's exhibit. 

Harwit describes meetings with American Legion and Air Force Association leaders where presentations of facts that supported the exhibit were met with angry summary dismissals. They simply did not want to hear the facts but wanted to perpetuate the Truman administration's myth that nuking Japan ended the war early and saved "hundreds of thousands" of American lives. 

These "leaders" who presumed to speak for all veterans did not even want the exhibit to include any pictures of the victims of the atomic bombings, lest anyone get the slightest idea that nuking hundreds of thousands of civilians was barbaric and inhumane.


----------



## AZrailwhale

Unkotare said:


> The same terms we eventually agreed to anyway.


No we didn't.  The Japanese surrendered UNCONDITIONALLY. We decided to emasculate the Emperor and keep him on the throne to make it easier for Mac to govern Japan.


----------



## Unkotare

AZrailwhale said:


> No we didn't.  ....


Oh yes we did. The one condition that was a sticking point was given in the end anyway. Deny all you want, but that is what happened.


----------



## Mushroom

AZrailwhale said:


> No we didn't.  The Japanese surrendered UNCONDITIONALLY. We decided to emasculate the Emperor and keep him on the throne to make it easier for Mac to govern Japan.



Here is the thing.  The Emperor never had power.  Not before the war, not after the war.

He had always been a figurehead, that did nothing but sit and watch as all the decisions were made around him.  He could not even speak in his Imperial Council, just listen.  The only time he ever had a vote or voice is if the council was hopelessly deadlocked.  Which happened exactly once.

The Emperor was not like Napoleon, Queen Vicky, or the Tsar or Kaiser.  They had been a "Hands Off" authority for hundreds of years.  With everything about their government being done in their name by others.


----------



## elektra

Unkotare said:


> And if the Germans had developed an ICBM that destroyed American cities, you would have accepted the same reasoning?


We did not use ICBM's against Japan, idiot!


----------



## Unkotare

elektra said:


> We did not use ICBM's against Japan, idiot!


I never said that we had. Can you read?


----------



## fncceo

gipper said:


> is the same as bombing a military base that killed no civilians and a fraction on military personnel.



In total, *49 civilians* were killed and 35 wounded during the attack on Oahu


----------



## elektra

And yes, we beat the terrible Japanese, we did so with two bombs. Do we care how many people died? Of course. Should how many of the enemy dying determine how we should end the war? Of course not. 

Were the Japanese beat, did the Japanese lose, before the bombs were dropped? No, they kept fighting. They kept killing. The idea that we should not end the war quickly when we could starve them slowly for months is simply ludicrous. 

But the USSR declared war against Japan? Which resulted in?? The release of our prisoners? No! The end of war, no! It was the beginning of another war, not a long war, but it began another war in which the Japanese fought for another 3 weeks! 

But Eisenhower said... Eisenhower was shown to be a liar, Eisenhower changed his story on what was said to Stimson many times in multiple books. Pick which, "truth" you care to believe. 

I can, and have gone throught every single argument the cry-babies offer. Not one argument they make, makes their case, that the bombs did not end the war. 

I have read all the books they cherry pick, in all cases the books contradict those who reference them. Eisenhower is the easiest example. 

Did we have to bomb Japan? No, we could of allowed dozens, hundreds, thousands, of Americans to die. After all, our president takes an oath to protect our enemies?????

The indisputable fact is, the Emperor of Japan had the power, and used his power to end the war after the bombing of Nagasaki. That is a fact written forever, in history.


----------



## elektra

Unkotare said:


> I never said that we had. Can you read?


You stated it as if you did not know the difference. If you do not have the intellect to interact intelligently, I would tell you to sit this one out but beings that you have not the intellect to reason with facts you certainly are not smart enough to know when to keep your mouth shut instead of making inane comments.


----------



## Unkotare

elektra said:


> ....
> 
> Were the Japanese beat, did the Japanese lose, before the bombs were dropped? No,....


"Admiral William Leahy, White House chief of staff and chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff during the war. Leahy wrote in his 1950 memoirs that "*the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan*. *The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender*." Moreover, Leahy continued, "in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children."


----------



## Unkotare

elektra said:


> You stated it as if you did not know the difference. ....


No, I did not. Your reading comprehension skills are poor.


----------



## Unkotare

elektra said:


> .....
> 
> The indisputable fact is, the Emperor of Japan had the power, and used his power to end the war after the bombing of Nagasaki. That is a fact written forever, in history.


Ignorance from a semi-informed (at best) dimwit.


----------



## elektra

mikegriffith1 said:


> They simply did not want to hear the facts but wanted to perpetuate the Truman administration's myth that nuking Japan ended the war early and saved "hundreds of thousands" of American lives.


This is a great example of the stupidity of the revisionists (there is no debate or logical exchange of ideas with those who are simply wrong, we can only point out their error and lies). Japan surrendered to the USA after the second bomb was dropped. Japan did not surrender to the USSR after the USSR declared war, they fought the USSR another 3 weeks! Either way, 3 events within a week. Two atomic bombs and the USSR began a war with Japan in China. 

Would Japan had surrendered without the bombs being dropped? A stupid idea to debate for we have the facts which are known. Speculation of alternate outcomes is simply opinion based on ignorance. 

Why would we not drop bombs? Answer, we are worried about civilian casualties. That worry of casualties would also apply to fire bombings, hence had we concern here, our concern would extend to there. No fire bombings, No atomic bombs, does Japan still surrender? Hell, no atomic bombs dropped does the USSR enter the war? Of course not. So where does the war end? 

That is the problem with revisionists, they must take a fact and make a falsehood fit. Then stop, they can not allow reason to be applied to their logic for it shows their whole argument is simply a lie that can not bear the brunt of the facts of history. 

Yes, Japan surrendered after the 2nd atomic bomb. Almost immediately.


----------



## elektra

Unkotare said:


> No, I did not. Your reading comprehension skills are poor.


you did not know the difference, that is clear, how about at least addressing the OP, instead of trolling posts as if that is a sign of how smart you are. At best when it comes to trolling and flaming, you set yourself up for failure. Everyone is calling you out as an idiot, it is not just me.


----------



## elektra

Unkotare said:


> Ignorance from a semi-informed (at best) dimwit.


attacking me and not the content of my post, makes you the dimwit.


----------



## Unkotare

elektra said:


> you did not know the difference, .....


Don't be ridiculous, fool.


----------



## elektra

Unkotare said:


> Don't be ridiculous, fool.


I know your user name is crap and that anyone who looks it up will be revolted


----------



## Unkotare

elektra said:


> attacking me and not the content of my post, makes you the dimwit.


Are you playing pot or kettle?


----------



## Weatherman2020

Unkotare said:


> Ignorance from a semi-informed (at best) dimwit.


Happy VJ Day!


----------



## Weatherman2020

Unkotare said:


> Don't be ridiculous, fool.


Tell us, what were the rules of warfare for Imperial Japan?  What conduct was forbidden?

Game Over.


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## Unkotare

Weatherman2020 said:


> Happy VJ Day!


You're a day late.


----------



## Unkotare

Weatherman2020 said:


> Tell us, what were the rules of warfare for Imperial Japan?  What conduct was forbidden?
> 
> Game Over.


Is that how the US sets its values? According to the worst behavior of an enemy in wartime? MY America is much, much better than that. You are welcome to leave and go find a country with lower standards.


----------



## Weatherman2020

Unkotare said:


> Is that how the US sets its values? According to the worst behavior of an enemy in wartime? MY America is much, much better than that. You are welcome to leave and go find a country with lower standards.


I had no idea using the best weapon available was a war crime. Won’t answer what limitations Japan had in warfare? You can’t. Total War, no holds, everything on the plate. 

We should have performed medical experiments on Japanese civilians like they did for years.


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## Unkotare

Weatherman2020 said:


> I had no idea using the best weapon available was a war crime......


Using it deliberately on unarmed civilians? Is that what you consider an American value?


----------



## Unkotare

Weatherman2020 said:


> ....
> 
> We should have performed medical experiments on Japanese civilians....


You are not a real American.


----------



## Weatherman2020

Unkotare said:


> You are not a real American.


What year did Japan even admit their atrocities?


----------



## Unkotare

Weatherman2020 said:


> What year did Japan even admit their atrocities?
> .....


Are American values determined by the actions of other nations? Is that what you think?


----------



## Unkotare

"1950s[edit]​
1957: Prime Minister Kishi Nobusuke said to the people of Burma: "We view with deep regret the vexation we caused to the people of Burma in the war just passed. In a desire to atone, if only partially, for the pain suffered, Japan is prepared to meet fully and with goodwill its obligations for war reparations. The Japan of today is not the Japan of the past, but, as its Constitution indicates, is a peace-loving nation."[6]
1957: Prime Minister Kishi Nobusuke said to the people of Australia: "It is my official duty, and my personal desire, to express to you and through you to the people of Australia, our heartfelt sorrow for what occurred in the war."[7]
1960s[edit]​
June 22, 1965: Minister of Foreign Affairs Shiina Etsusaburo said to the people of South Korea: "In our two countries' long history there have been unfortunate times, it is truly regrettable and we are deeply remorseful" (Signing of the Treaty on Basic Relations between Japan and South Korea).
1970s[edit]​
September 29, 1972: Prime Minister Kakuei Tanaka said to the people of the People's Republic of China: "The Japanese side is keenly conscious of the responsibility for the serious damage that Japan caused in the past to the Chinese people through war, and deeply reproaches itself. Further, the Japanese side reaffirms its position that it intends to realize the normalization of relations between the two countries from the stand of fully understanding 'the three principles for the restoration of relations' put forward by the Government of the People's Republic of China. The Chinese side expresses its welcome for this" (Joint Communique of the Government of Japan and the Government of the People's Republic of China).[8]
1980s[edit]​
August 24, 1982: Prime Minister Zenkō Suzuki said: "I am painfully aware of Japan's responsibility for inflicting serious damages [on Asian nations] during the past war." "We need to recognize that there are criticisms that condemn [Japan's occupation] as invasion" (Press Conference on the textbook controversy).[9]
August 26, 1982: Chief Cabinet Secretary Kiichi Miyazawa said to the people of the Republic of Korea: "1. The Japanese Government and the Japanese people are deeply aware of the fact that acts by our country in the past caused tremendous suffering and damage to the peoples of Asian countries, including the Republic of Korea (ROK) and China, and have followed the path of a pacifist state with remorse and determination that such acts must never be repeated. Japan has recognized, in the Japan-ROK Joint Communique, of 1965, that the 'past relations are regrettable, and Japan feels deep remorse,' and in the Japan-China Joint Communique, that Japan is 'keenly conscious of the responsibility for the serious damage that Japan caused in the past to the Chinese people through war and deeply reproaches itself.' These statements confirm Japan's remorse and determination which I stated above and this recognition has not changed at all to this day. 2. This spirit in the Japan-ROK Joint Communique, and the Japan-China Joint Communique, naturally should also be respected in Japan's school education and textbook authorization.
September 6, 1984: Emperor Hirohito said to President Chun Doo Hwan: "It is indeed regrettable that there was an unfortunate past between us for a period in this century and I believe that it should not be repeated again." (Meeting with President Chun Doo Hwan.)[10]
September 7, 1984: Prime Minister Yasuhiro Nakasone said: "There was a period in this century when Japan brought to bear great sufferings upon your country and its people. I would like to state here that the government and people of Japan feel a deep regret for this error."[11]
October 23, 1985: Prime Minister Yasuhiro Nakasone, in a speech to the United Nations, said: "On June 6, 1945, when the UN Charter was signed in San Francisco, Japan was still fighting a senseless war with 40 nations. Since the end of the war, Japan has profoundly regretted the unleashing of rampant ultra nationalism and militarism and the war that brought great devastation to the people of many countries around the world and to our country as well" (Speech to the United Nations).
1989: Prime Minister Takeshita Noboru, in a speech in the Japanese Diet, said: "As we have made clear previously at repeated opportunities, the Japanese government and the Japanese people are deeply conscious of the fact that the actions of our country in the past caused suffering and loss to many people in neighboring countries. Starting from our regret and resolve not to repeat such things a second time, we have followed a course as a "Peace Nation" since then. This awareness and regret should be emphasized especially in the relationship between our countries and the Korean Peninsula, our nearest neighbors both geographically and historically. At this opportunity as we face a new situation in the Korean Peninsula, again, to all peoples of the globe, concerning the relationship of the past, we want to express our deep regret and sorrow" (Speech in the Japanese Diet).
1990s[edit]​
April 18, 1990: Minister of Foreign Affairs Taro Nakayama said to the people of South Korea: "Japan is deeply sorry for the tragedy in which these (Korean) people were moved to Sakhalin not of their own free will but by the design of the Japanese government and had to remain there after the conclusion of the war" (188th National Diet Session Lower House Committee of Foreign Affairs).[12]
May 24, 1990: Emperor Akihito, in a meeting with South Korean President Roh Tae Woo, said: "Reflecting upon the suffering that your people underwent during this unfortunate period, which was brought about by our nation, I cannot but feel the deepest remorse" (Meeting with President Roh Tae Woo).[13]
May 25, 1990: Prime Minister Toshiki Kaifu, in a meeting with President Roh Tae Woo, said: "I would like to take the opportunity here to humbly reflect upon how the people of the Korean Peninsula went through unbearable pain and sorrow as a result of our country's actions during a certain period in the past and to express that we are sorry" (Summit meeting with President Roh Tae Woo in Japan).[14]
January 1, 1992: Prime Minister Kiichi Miyazawa, in a press conference, said: "Concerning the comfort women, I apologize from the bottom of my heart and feel remorse for those people who suffered indescribable hardships".
January 16, 1992: Prime Minister Kiichi Miyazawa, in a speech at dinner with President Roh Tae Woo, said: "We the Japanese people, first and foremost, have to bear in our mind the fact that your people experienced unbearable suffering and sorrow during a certain period in the past because of our nation's act, and never forget the feeling of remorse. I, as a prime minister, would like to once again express a heartfelt remorse and apology to the people of your nation".[15]
January 17, 1992: Prime Minister Kiichi Miyazawa, at a policy speech on a visit to South Korea, said:. "What we should not forget about relationship between our nation and your nation is a fact that there was a certain period in the thousands of years of our company when we were the victimizer and you were the victim. I would like to once again express a heartfelt remorse and apology for the unbearable suffering and sorrow that you experienced during this period because of our nation's act." Recently the issue of the so-called 'wartime comfort women' is being brought up. I think that incidents like this are seriously heartbreaking, and I am truly sorry".[16]
July 6, 1992. Chief Cabinet Secretary Koichi Kato said: "The Government again would like to express its sincere apology and remorse to all those who have suffered indescribable hardship as so-called 'wartime comfort women,' irrespective of their nationality or place of birth. With profound remorse and determination that such a mistake must never be repeated, Japan will maintain its stance as a pacifist nation and will endeavor to build up new future-oriented relations with the Republic of Korea and with other countries and regions in Asia. As I listen to many people, I feel truly grieved for this issue. By listening to the opinions of people from various directions, I would like to consider sincerely in what way we can express our feelings to those who suffered such hardship" (Statement by Chief Cabinet Secretary Koichi Kato on the Issue of the so-called "Wartime Comfort Women" from the Korean Peninsula).[17]
August 4, 1993: Chief Cabinet Secretary Yōhei Kōno said: "Undeniably, this was an act, with the involvement of the military authorities of the day, that severely injured the honor and dignity of many women. The Government of Japan would like to take this opportunity once again to extend its sincere apologies and remorse to all those, irrespective of place of origin, who suffered immeasurable pain and incurable physical and psychological wounds as comfort women" (Statement by the Chief Cabinet Secretary Yohei Kono on the result of the study on the issue of "comfort women"),[18]
August 11, 1993: Prime Minister Morihiro Hosokawa, at the first press conference after his inauguration, said: "I myself believe it was a war of aggression, a war that was wrong".[19]
August 23, 1993: Prime Minister Morihiro Hosokawa said in a speech at the 127th National Diet Session: "After 48 years from then, our nation has become one of nations that enjoy prosperity and peace. We must not forget that it is founded on the ultimate sacrifices in the last war, and a product of the achievements of the people of the previous generations. We would like to take this opportunity to clearly express our remorse for the past and a new determination to the world. Firstly at this occasion, we would like to express our deep remorse and apology for the fact that invasion and colonial rule by our nation in the past brought to bear great sufferings and sorrow upon many people" .[20]
September 24, 1993: Prime Minister Morihiro Hosokawa said, at the 128th National Diet Session:. "I used the expression war of aggression and act of aggression to express honestly my recognition which is the same as the one that the act of our nation in the past brought to bear unbearable sufferings and sorrow upon many people, and to express once again deep remorse and apology".[21]
August 31, 1994: Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama said in a speech: "Japan's actions in a certain period of the past not only claimed numerous victims here in Japan but also left the peoples of neighboring Asia and elsewhere with scars that are painful even today. I am thus taking this opportunity to state my belief, based on my profound remorse for these acts of aggression, colonial rule, and the like caused such unbearable suffering and sorrow for so many people, that Japan's future path should be one of making every effort to build world peace in line with my no-war commitment. It is imperative for us Japanese to look squarely to our history with the peoples of neighboring Asia and elsewhere. Only with solid basis of mutual understanding and confidence that can be built through overcoming the pain on both sides, can we and the peoples of neighboring countries together clear up the future of Asia-Pacific.... On the issue of wartime 'comfort women,' which seriously stained the honor and dignity of many women, I would like to take this opportunity once again to express my profound and sincere remorse and apologies. With regard to this issue as well, I believe that one way of demonstrating such feelings of apologies and remorse is to work to further promote mutual understanding with the countries and areas concerned as well as to face squarely to the past and ensure that it is rightly conveyed to future generations. This initiative, in this sense, has been drawn up consistent with such belief" (Statement by Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama on the "Peace, Friendship, and Exchange Initiative").[22]
June 9, 1995: House of Representatives, National Diet of Japan passed a resolution stating: "On the occasion of the 50th anniversary of the end of World War II, this House offers its sincere condolences to those who fell in action and victims of wars and similar actions all over the world. Solemnly reflecting upon many instances of colonial rule and acts of aggression in the modern history of the world, and recognizing that Japan carried out those acts in the past, inflicting pain and suffering upon the peoples of other countries, especially in Asia, the Members of this House express a sense of deep remorse" (Resolution to renew the determination for peace on the basis of lessons learned from history).[23]
July 1995: Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama said in a statement: "The problem of the so-called wartime comfort women is one such scar, which, with the involvement of the Japanese military forces of the time, seriously stained the honor and dignity of many women. This is entirely inexcusable. I offer my profound apology to all those who, as wartime comfort women, suffered emotional and physical wounds that can never be closed" (Statement by Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama on the occasion of the establishment of the "Asian Women's Fund").[24]
August 15, 1995: Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama said in a statement: "During a certain period in the not-too-distant past, Japan, through its colonial rule and aggression, caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries, particularly those of Asia. In the hope that no such mistake will be made in the future, I regard, in a spirit of humanity, these irrefutable facts of history, and express here once again my feelings of deep remorse and state my heartfelt apology" (Statement by Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama 'On the occasion of the 50th anniversary of the war's end').[25]
June 23, 1996: Prime Minister Ryutaro Hashimoto said in a press conference: "Hashimoto mentioned the aspects of Japan's colonial rule of the Korean Peninsula such as the forced Japanization of Korean people's name and commented "It is beyond imagination how this injured the hearts of Korean people". Hashimoto also touched on the issue of Korean comfort women and said "Nothing injured the honor and dignity of women more than this and I would like to extend words of deep remorse and the heartfelt apology" (Joint press conference at summit meeting with President Kim Young Sam in South Korea).[26]
October 8, 1996: Emperor Akihito said in a speech at a dinner with the South Korean president, Kim Dae Jung: "There was a period when our nation brought to bear great sufferings upon the people of the Korean Peninsula." "The deep sorrow that I feel over this will never be forgotten".[27]
January 13, 1998: Press Secretary published: "Statement by Prime Minister Ryutaro Hashimoto on World War II prisoners of war. Q: At the meeting last night with Prime Minister Blair, did Prime Minister Hashimoto really apologize for the prisoners of war. Spokesman Hashimoto: The important thing is that the Prime Minister of Japan expressed the feelings of deep remorse and stated heartfelt apologies to the people who suffered in World War II directly to the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. This was the second meeting between Prime Minister Hashimoto and Prime Minister Blair and we considered the meeting very important, especially this year. Making use of this opportunity, Prime Minister Hashimoto expressed his remorse and apology on behalf of the Government of Japan; this is very important. Prime Minister Blair fully understands the importance of the statement made by Prime Minister Hashimoto on this issue. His press opportunities after the talks objectively reflect what the two gentlemen talked about" (Press Conference by the Press Secretary).[28] In a follow-up interview, spokesman Tanaka for Prime Minister Hashimoto clarified that "Our sense of apology and our sense of remorse was addressed to all the countries which have gone through the experiences of the last world war."[29]
July 15, 1998: Prime Minister Ryutaro Hashimoto, in a letter to the Netherlands Prime Minister Willem Kok: "The Government of Japan, painfully aware of its moral responsibility concerning the issue of so-called "wartime comfort women," has been sincerely addressing this issue in close cooperation with the Asian Women's Fund which implements the projects to express the national atonement on this issue. Recognizing that the issue of comfort women, with an involvement of the Japanese military authorities at that time, was a grave affront to the honor and dignity of large numbers of women, I would like to convey to Your Excellency my most sincere apologies and remorse to all the women who underwent immeasurable and painful experiences and suffered incurable physical and psychological wounds as comfort women.... By the Statement of Prime Minister in 1995, the Government of Japan renewed the feelings of deep remorse and the heartfelt apology for tremendous damage and suffering caused by Japan to the people of many countries including the Netherlands during a certain period in the past. My cabinet has not modified this position at all, and I myself laid a wreath to the Indisch Monument with these feelings on the occasion of my visit to the Netherlands in June last year" (The contents of the letter of the then Japanese Prime Minister Ryutaro Hashimoto sent to ).[30]
October 8, 1998: Prime Minister Keizō Obuchi said in a declaration: "Looking back on the relations between Japan and the Republic of Korea during this century, Prime Minister Obuchi regarded in a spirit of humility the fact of history that Japan caused, during a certain period in the past, tremendous damage and suffering to the people of the Republic of Korea through its colonial rule, and expressed his deep remorse and heartfelt apology for this fact. President Kim accepted with sincerity this statement of Prime Minister Obuchi's recognition of history and expressed his appreciation for it. He also expressed his view that the present calls upon both countries to overcome their unfortunate history and to build a future-oriented relationship based on reconciliation as well as good-neighborly and friendly cooperation" (Japan-South Korea Joint Declaration A New Japan-South Korea Partnership towards the Twenty-first Century).[31]
November 26, 1998: Prime Minister Keizō Obuchi said in a declaration: "Both sides believe that squarely facing the past and correctly understanding history are the important foundation for further developing relations between Japan and China. The Japanese side observes the 1972 Joint Communique of the Government of Japan and the Government of the People's Republic of China and the August 15, 1995, Statement by former Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama. The Japanese side is keenly conscious of the responsibility for the serious distress and damage that Japan caused to the Chinese people through its aggression against China during a certain period in the past and expressed deep remorse for this. The Chinese side hopes that the Japanese side will learn lessons from the history and adhere to the path of peace and development. Based on this, both sides will develop long-standing relations of friendship" (Japan-China Joint Declaration On Building a Partnership of Friendship and Cooperation for Peace and Development).[32]
2000s[edit]​
August 10, 2000: Consul-General of Japan in Hong Kong Itaru Umezu said: "In fact, Japan has clearly and repeatedly expressed its sincere remorse and apologies, and has dealt sincerely with reparation issues. These apologies were irrefutably expressed, in particular in Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama's official statement in 1995, which was based on a cabinet decision and which has subsequently been upheld by successive prime ministers, including Prime Minister Yoshirō Mori. Mr. Murayama said that Japan 'through its colonial rule and aggression, caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries, particularly to those of Asian nations. In the hope that no such mistake be made in the future, I regard, in a spirit of humility, these irrefutable facts of history, and express here once again my feelings of deep remorse and state my heartfelt apology'" (Japan Has Faced Its Past. _Far Eastern Economic Review_, August 10, 2000).[33]
August 30, 2000: Minister for Foreign Affairs Yōhei Kōno said in an address during his visit to the People's Republic of China: "I believe that Japan's perception of history was clearly set out in the Statement by Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama issued, following a Cabinet Decision, on the fiftieth anniversary of the end of World War II. As a member of the Cabinet, I participated in the drafting of that Statement. The spirit contained therein has been carried forth by successive administrations and is now the common view of the large number of Japanese people" (Address by Minister for Foreign Affairs Yōhei Kōno During His Visit to the People's Republic of China).[34]
April 3, 2001: Chief Cabinet Secretary Yasuo Fukuda said: "Japan humbly accepts that for a period in the not too distant past, it caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries, particularly to those of Asian nations, through its colonial rule and aggression, and expresses its deep remorse and heartfelt apology for this. Such recognition has been succeeded by subsequent Cabinets and there is no change regarding this point in the present Cabinet" (Comments by the Chief Cabinet Secretary, Yasuo Fukuda on the history textbooks to be used in junior high schools from 2002).[35]
September 8, 2001: Minister for Foreign Affairs Makiko Tanaka said in a speech: "We have never forgotten that Japan caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries during the last war. Many lost their precious lives and many were wounded. The war has left an incurable scar on many people, including former prisoners of war. Facing these facts of history in a spirit of humility, I reaffirm today our feelings of deep remorse and heartfelt apology expressed in the Prime Minister Murayama's statement of 1995" (Speech by Minister for Foreign Affairs Makiko Tanaka at the Ceremony in Commemoration of 50th anniversary of the Signing of the San Francisco Peace Treaty).[36]
October 15, 2001: Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi said: "During the talks, President Kim highly appreciated the words of the Prime Minister Koizumi at Sodaemun Independence Park, in which he expressed remorse and apology for Japan's colonial domination" (Japanese prime minister visits South Korea).[37]
2001: Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi (Also signed by all the prime ministers since 1995, including Ryutaro Hashimoto, Keizō Obuchi, Yoshirō Mori) said in a letter: "As Prime Minister of Japan, I thus extend anew my most sincere apologies and remorse to all the women who underwent immeasurable and painful experiences and suffered incurable physical and psychological wounds as comfort women. We must not evade the weight of the past, nor should we evade our responsibilities for the future. I believe that our country, painfully aware of its moral responsibilities, with feelings of apology and remorse, should face up squarely to its past history and accurately convey it to future generations" (Letter from Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi to the former comfort women).[38]
September 17, 2002: Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi said: "The Japanese side regards, in a spirit of humility, the facts of history that Japan caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of Korea through its colonial rule in the past, and expressed deep remorse and heartfelt apology" (Japan-DPRK Pyongyang Declaration).[39]
August 15, 2003: Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi said: "During the war, Japan caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries, particularly to those of Asian nations. On behalf of the people of Japan, I hereby renew my feelings of profound remorse as I express my sincere mourning to the victims" (Address by Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi at the 58th Memorial Ceremony for the War Dead).[40]
April 22, 2005: Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi said: "Japan squarely faces these facts of history in a spirit of humility. And with feelings of deep remorse and heartfelt apology always engraved in mind, Japan has resolutely maintained, consistently since the end of World War II, never turning into a military power but an economic power, its principle of resolving all matters by peaceful means, without recourse to use of force. Japan once again states its resolve to contribute to the peace and prosperity of the world in the future as well, prizing the relationship of trust it enjoys with the nations of the world." (Address by the Prime Minister of Japan at the Asia-African Summit 2005).[41]
August 15, 2005: Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi said: "In the past, Japan, through its colonial rule and aggression, caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries, particularly to those of Asian nations. Sincerely facing these facts of history, I once again express my feelings of deep remorse and heartfelt apology, and also express the feelings of mourning for all victims, both at home and abroad, in the war. I am determined not to allow the lessons of that horrible war to erode, and to contribute to the peace and prosperity of the world without ever again waging a war."[42]
March 1, 2007: Prime Minister Shinzō Abe stated in a newspaper article that there was no evidence that the Japanese government had kept sex slaves, even though the Japanese government had already admitted the use of brothels in 1993. On March 27, the Japanese parliament issued an official apology.[43] This was regarding the surviving comfort women who had demanded an apology from the Japanese government for being used as sex slaves.
May 9, 2009: The Japanese government, through its ambassador in the U.S., apologized to former American prisoners of war who suffered in the Bataan Death March.[44]
2010s[edit]​
February 11, 2010: Foreign Minister Katsuya Okada said: "I believe what happened 100 years ago deprived Koreans of their country and national pride. I can understand the feelings of the people who lost their country and had their pride wounded," Okada said during a joint news conference with South Korean Foreign Minister Yu Myung-hwan. (This was a statement marking the 100th anniversary of Japan's colonial annexation of Korea, and not in reference to Japan's war acts in particular.)[45]
August 10, 2010: Prime Minister Naoto Kan expressed "deep regret over the suffering inflicted" during the Empire of Japan's colonial rule over Korea. Japan's Kyodo News also reported that Cabinet members endorsed the statement. In addition, Kan said that Japan will hand over precious cultural artifacts that South Korea has been demanding. Among them were records of an ancient Korean royal dynasty.[46]
September 13, 2010: Foreign Minister Katsuya Okada apologized to a group of six former American soldiers who during World War II were held as prisoners of war by the Japanese, including 90-year-old Lester Tenney, a survivor of the Bataan Death March in 1942. The six and their families and the families of two deceased soldiers were invited to visit Japan at the expense of the Japanese government in a program that will see more American former prisoners of war and former prisoners of war from other countries visit Japan in the future.[47]
December 7, 2010: Prime Minister Naoto Kan apologized for Korea's suffering under colonization as part of a statement marking the 100th anniversary of the annexation in 1910. "I express a renewed feeling of deep remorse and state my heartfelt apology for the tremendous damage and suffering caused by colonial rule," Kan said. Kan said Japan colonized Korea "against the will of the Korean people" who suffered great damage to their national pride and loss of culture and sovereignty as a result and added that he wants to take an honest look at his country's past with the courage and humility to address its history.[48]
March 3, 2011: Foreign Minister Seiji Maehara apologized to a group of Australian POWs visiting Japan as guests of the Government of Japan for the ill-treatment they received while in Imperial Japanese captivity.[49]
December 8, 2011: Parliamentary Vice Minister for Foreign Affairs Toshiyuki Kat apologized to Canada for their treatment of Canadian POW's after the Battle of Hong Kong.[50]
November 13, 2013: Former Japanese Prime Minister Hatoyama Yukio offered personal apology for Japan's wartime crimes, especially the Nanking Massacre, "As a Japanese citizen, I feel that it's my duty to apologise for even just one Chinese civilian killed brutally by Japanese soldiers and that such action cannot be excused by saying that it occurred during war."[51]
April 9, 2014: Japanese Ambassador to the Philippines Toshinao Urabe expressed "heartfelt apology" and "deep remorse" and vowed "never to wage war again" at the Day of Valor ceremony in Bataan.[52]
April 29, 2015: Prime Minister Shinzō Abe, during the first speech of a Japanese prime minister at a Joint session of the United States Congress, stated "deep repentance" for Japan's actions during World War II.[53]
December 28, 2015: Japanese Foreign Minister Fumio Kishida and South Korean Foreign Minister Yun Byung-se made an announcement at a joint press conference, which consisted of their respective statements on behalf of Japan and South Korea. Kishida stated, "The issue of comfort women, with an involvement of the Japanese military authorities at that time, was a grave affront to the honor and dignity of large numbers of women, and the Government of Japan is painfully aware of responsibilities from this perspective. As Prime Minister of Japan, Prime Minister Abe expresses anew his most sincere apologies and remorse to all the women who underwent immeasurable and painful experiences and suffered incurable physical and psychological wounds as comfort women." The statement went on to explain that "the Government of Japan will now take measures to heal psychological wounds of all former comfort women through its budget" and that it had been decided that the South Korean government would "establish a foundation for the purpose of providing support for the former comfort women". In return, Yun stated that his government "acknowledges the fact that the Government of Japan is concerned about the statue built in front of the Embassy of Japan in Seoul from the viewpoint of preventing any disturbance of the peace of the mission or impairment of its dignity, and will strive to solve this issue in an appropriate manner". Both stated that this agreement will "finally and irreversibly" resolve the contentious issue and that "on the premise that the Government of Japan will steadily implement the measures it announced", both countries "will refrain from accusing or criticizing each other regarding this issue in the international community, including at the United Nations".[54]
2020s[edit]​
August 15, 2020: At a memorial ceremony to mark the 75th anniversary of the end of World War II and the war dead, Emperor Naruhito expressed "deep remorse" over Japan's wartime past and he stated “I earnestly hope that the ravages of war will never again be repeated”.[55]
Comments clarifying past apologies[edit]​
September 6, 1997: Prime Minister Ryutaro Hashimoto said: "In 1995, on the 50th anniversary of the end of World War II, the Government of Japan expressed its resolution through the statement by the Prime Minister, which states that during a certain period in the past, Japan's conduct caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries, including China, and the Prime Minister expressed his feeling of deep remorse and stated his heartfelt apology, while giving his word to make efforts for peace. I myself was one of the ministers who was involved in drafting this statement. I would like to repeat that this is the official position of the Government of Japan. During the summit meeting that I had during my visit to China, I have made this point very clear in a frank manner to the Chinese side. Premier Li Peng said that he concurs completely with my remarks" (Ministry of Foreign Affairs Press Conference on: Visit of Prime Minister Ryutaro Hashimoto to the People's Republic of China).[56]
Letter from Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi to the former comfort women



> The Year of 2001
> Dear Madam,
> On the occasion that the Asian Women's Fund, in cooperation with the Government and the people of Japan, offers atonement from the Japanese people to the former wartime comfort women, I wish to express my feelings as well.
> The issue of comfort women, with an involvement of the Japanese military authorities at that time, was a grave affront to the honor and dignity of large numbers of women.
> As Prime Minister of Japan, I thus extend anew my most sincere apologies and remorse to all the women who underwent immeasurable and painful experiences and suffered incurable physical and psychological wounds as comfort women.
> We must not evade the weight of the past, nor should we evade our responsibilities for the future.
> I believe that our country, painfully aware of its moral responsibilities, with feelings of apology and remorse, should face up squarely to its past history and accurately convey it to future generations.
> Furthermore, Japan also should take an active part in dealing with violence and other forms of injustice to the honor and dignity of women.
> Finally, I pray from the bottom of my heart that each of you will find peace for the rest of your lives.
> Respectfully yours,
> Junichiro Koizumi
> Prime Minister of Japan



October 18, 2013: Prime Minister Shinzō Abe said: "Japan inflicted tremendous damage and suffering on people in many countries, especially in Asia. The Abe Cabinet will take the same stance as that of past Cabinets."[57]"





						List of war apology statements issued by Japan - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Weatherman2020

Unkotare said:


> Are American values determined by the actions of other nations? Is that what you think?


If Hitler was still going or used gas, Germans would have gotten it back too.


----------



## Weatherman2020

Unkotare said:


> "1950s[edit]​
> 1957: Prime Minister Kishi Nobusuke said to the people of Burma: "We view with deep regret the vexation we caused to the people of Burma in the war just passed. In a desire to atone, if only partially, for the pain suffered, Japan is prepared to meet fully and with goodwill its obligations for war reparations. The Japan of today is not the Japan of the past, but, as its Constitution indicates, is a peace-loving nation."[6]
> 1957: Prime Minister Kishi Nobusuke said to the people of Australia: "It is my official duty, and my personal desire, to express to you and through you to the people of Australia, our heartfelt sorrow for what occurred in the war."[7]
> 1960s[edit]​
> June 22, 1965: Minister of Foreign Affairs Shiina Etsusaburo said to the people of South Korea: "In our two countries' long history there have been unfortunate times, it is truly regrettable and we are deeply remorseful" (Signing of the Treaty on Basic Relations between Japan and South Korea).
> 1970s[edit]​
> September 29, 1972: Prime Minister Kakuei Tanaka said to the people of the People's Republic of China: "The Japanese side is keenly conscious of the responsibility for the serious damage that Japan caused in the past to the Chinese people through war, and deeply reproaches itself. Further, the Japanese side reaffirms its position that it intends to realize the normalization of relations between the two countries from the stand of fully understanding 'the three principles for the restoration of relations' put forward by the Government of the People's Republic of China. The Chinese side expresses its welcome for this" (Joint Communique of the Government of Japan and the Government of the People's Republic of China).[8]
> 1980s[edit]​
> August 24, 1982: Prime Minister Zenkō Suzuki said: "I am painfully aware of Japan's responsibility for inflicting serious damages [on Asian nations] during the past war." "We need to recognize that there are criticisms that condemn [Japan's occupation] as invasion" (Press Conference on the textbook controversy).[9]
> August 26, 1982: Chief Cabinet Secretary Kiichi Miyazawa said to the people of the Republic of Korea: "1. The Japanese Government and the Japanese people are deeply aware of the fact that acts by our country in the past caused tremendous suffering and damage to the peoples of Asian countries, including the Republic of Korea (ROK) and China, and have followed the path of a pacifist state with remorse and determination that such acts must never be repeated. Japan has recognized, in the Japan-ROK Joint Communique, of 1965, that the 'past relations are regrettable, and Japan feels deep remorse,' and in the Japan-China Joint Communique, that Japan is 'keenly conscious of the responsibility for the serious damage that Japan caused in the past to the Chinese people through war and deeply reproaches itself.' These statements confirm Japan's remorse and determination which I stated above and this recognition has not changed at all to this day. 2. This spirit in the Japan-ROK Joint Communique, and the Japan-China Joint Communique, naturally should also be respected in Japan's school education and textbook authorization.
> September 6, 1984: Emperor Hirohito said to President Chun Doo Hwan: "It is indeed regrettable that there was an unfortunate past between us for a period in this century and I believe that it should not be repeated again." (Meeting with President Chun Doo Hwan.)[10]
> September 7, 1984: Prime Minister Yasuhiro Nakasone said: "There was a period in this century when Japan brought to bear great sufferings upon your country and its people. I would like to state here that the government and people of Japan feel a deep regret for this error."[11]
> October 23, 1985: Prime Minister Yasuhiro Nakasone, in a speech to the United Nations, said: "On June 6, 1945, when the UN Charter was signed in San Francisco, Japan was still fighting a senseless war with 40 nations. Since the end of the war, Japan has profoundly regretted the unleashing of rampant ultra nationalism and militarism and the war that brought great devastation to the people of many countries around the world and to our country as well" (Speech to the United Nations).
> 1989: Prime Minister Takeshita Noboru, in a speech in the Japanese Diet, said: "As we have made clear previously at repeated opportunities, the Japanese government and the Japanese people are deeply conscious of the fact that the actions of our country in the past caused suffering and loss to many people in neighboring countries. Starting from our regret and resolve not to repeat such things a second time, we have followed a course as a "Peace Nation" since then. This awareness and regret should be emphasized especially in the relationship between our countries and the Korean Peninsula, our nearest neighbors both geographically and historically. At this opportunity as we face a new situation in the Korean Peninsula, again, to all peoples of the globe, concerning the relationship of the past, we want to express our deep regret and sorrow" (Speech in the Japanese Diet).
> 1990s[edit]​
> April 18, 1990: Minister of Foreign Affairs Taro Nakayama said to the people of South Korea: "Japan is deeply sorry for the tragedy in which these (Korean) people were moved to Sakhalin not of their own free will but by the design of the Japanese government and had to remain there after the conclusion of the war" (188th National Diet Session Lower House Committee of Foreign Affairs).[12]
> May 24, 1990: Emperor Akihito, in a meeting with South Korean President Roh Tae Woo, said: "Reflecting upon the suffering that your people underwent during this unfortunate period, which was brought about by our nation, I cannot but feel the deepest remorse" (Meeting with President Roh Tae Woo).[13]
> May 25, 1990: Prime Minister Toshiki Kaifu, in a meeting with President Roh Tae Woo, said: "I would like to take the opportunity here to humbly reflect upon how the people of the Korean Peninsula went through unbearable pain and sorrow as a result of our country's actions during a certain period in the past and to express that we are sorry" (Summit meeting with President Roh Tae Woo in Japan).[14]
> January 1, 1992: Prime Minister Kiichi Miyazawa, in a press conference, said: "Concerning the comfort women, I apologize from the bottom of my heart and feel remorse for those people who suffered indescribable hardships".
> January 16, 1992: Prime Minister Kiichi Miyazawa, in a speech at dinner with President Roh Tae Woo, said: "We the Japanese people, first and foremost, have to bear in our mind the fact that your people experienced unbearable suffering and sorrow during a certain period in the past because of our nation's act, and never forget the feeling of remorse. I, as a prime minister, would like to once again express a heartfelt remorse and apology to the people of your nation".[15]
> January 17, 1992: Prime Minister Kiichi Miyazawa, at a policy speech on a visit to South Korea, said:. "What we should not forget about relationship between our nation and your nation is a fact that there was a certain period in the thousands of years of our company when we were the victimizer and you were the victim. I would like to once again express a heartfelt remorse and apology for the unbearable suffering and sorrow that you experienced during this period because of our nation's act." Recently the issue of the so-called 'wartime comfort women' is being brought up. I think that incidents like this are seriously heartbreaking, and I am truly sorry".[16]
> July 6, 1992. Chief Cabinet Secretary Koichi Kato said: "The Government again would like to express its sincere apology and remorse to all those who have suffered indescribable hardship as so-called 'wartime comfort women,' irrespective of their nationality or place of birth. With profound remorse and determination that such a mistake must never be repeated, Japan will maintain its stance as a pacifist nation and will endeavor to build up new future-oriented relations with the Republic of Korea and with other countries and regions in Asia. As I listen to many people, I feel truly grieved for this issue. By listening to the opinions of people from various directions, I would like to consider sincerely in what way we can express our feelings to those who suffered such hardship" (Statement by Chief Cabinet Secretary Koichi Kato on the Issue of the so-called "Wartime Comfort Women" from the Korean Peninsula).[17]
> August 4, 1993: Chief Cabinet Secretary Yōhei Kōno said: "Undeniably, this was an act, with the involvement of the military authorities of the day, that severely injured the honor and dignity of many women. The Government of Japan would like to take this opportunity once again to extend its sincere apologies and remorse to all those, irrespective of place of origin, who suffered immeasurable pain and incurable physical and psychological wounds as comfort women" (Statement by the Chief Cabinet Secretary Yohei Kono on the result of the study on the issue of "comfort women"),[18]
> August 11, 1993: Prime Minister Morihiro Hosokawa, at the first press conference after his inauguration, said: "I myself believe it was a war of aggression, a war that was wrong".[19]
> August 23, 1993: Prime Minister Morihiro Hosokawa said in a speech at the 127th National Diet Session: "After 48 years from then, our nation has become one of nations that enjoy prosperity and peace. We must not forget that it is founded on the ultimate sacrifices in the last war, and a product of the achievements of the people of the previous generations. We would like to take this opportunity to clearly express our remorse for the past and a new determination to the world. Firstly at this occasion, we would like to express our deep remorse and apology for the fact that invasion and colonial rule by our nation in the past brought to bear great sufferings and sorrow upon many people" .[20]
> September 24, 1993: Prime Minister Morihiro Hosokawa said, at the 128th National Diet Session:. "I used the expression war of aggression and act of aggression to express honestly my recognition which is the same as the one that the act of our nation in the past brought to bear unbearable sufferings and sorrow upon many people, and to express once again deep remorse and apology".[21]
> August 31, 1994: Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama said in a speech: "Japan's actions in a certain period of the past not only claimed numerous victims here in Japan but also left the peoples of neighboring Asia and elsewhere with scars that are painful even today. I am thus taking this opportunity to state my belief, based on my profound remorse for these acts of aggression, colonial rule, and the like caused such unbearable suffering and sorrow for so many people, that Japan's future path should be one of making every effort to build world peace in line with my no-war commitment. It is imperative for us Japanese to look squarely to our history with the peoples of neighboring Asia and elsewhere. Only with solid basis of mutual understanding and confidence that can be built through overcoming the pain on both sides, can we and the peoples of neighboring countries together clear up the future of Asia-Pacific.... On the issue of wartime 'comfort women,' which seriously stained the honor and dignity of many women, I would like to take this opportunity once again to express my profound and sincere remorse and apologies. With regard to this issue as well, I believe that one way of demonstrating such feelings of apologies and remorse is to work to further promote mutual understanding with the countries and areas concerned as well as to face squarely to the past and ensure that it is rightly conveyed to future generations. This initiative, in this sense, has been drawn up consistent with such belief" (Statement by Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama on the "Peace, Friendship, and Exchange Initiative").[22]
> June 9, 1995: House of Representatives, National Diet of Japan passed a resolution stating: "On the occasion of the 50th anniversary of the end of World War II, this House offers its sincere condolences to those who fell in action and victims of wars and similar actions all over the world. Solemnly reflecting upon many instances of colonial rule and acts of aggression in the modern history of the world, and recognizing that Japan carried out those acts in the past, inflicting pain and suffering upon the peoples of other countries, especially in Asia, the Members of this House express a sense of deep remorse" (Resolution to renew the determination for peace on the basis of lessons learned from history).[23]
> July 1995: Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama said in a statement: "The problem of the so-called wartime comfort women is one such scar, which, with the involvement of the Japanese military forces of the time, seriously stained the honor and dignity of many women. This is entirely inexcusable. I offer my profound apology to all those who, as wartime comfort women, suffered emotional and physical wounds that can never be closed" (Statement by Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama on the occasion of the establishment of the "Asian Women's Fund").[24]
> August 15, 1995: Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama said in a statement: "During a certain period in the not-too-distant past, Japan, through its colonial rule and aggression, caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries, particularly those of Asia. In the hope that no such mistake will be made in the future, I regard, in a spirit of humanity, these irrefutable facts of history, and express here once again my feelings of deep remorse and state my heartfelt apology" (Statement by Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama 'On the occasion of the 50th anniversary of the war's end').[25]
> June 23, 1996: Prime Minister Ryutaro Hashimoto said in a press conference: "Hashimoto mentioned the aspects of Japan's colonial rule of the Korean Peninsula such as the forced Japanization of Korean people's name and commented "It is beyond imagination how this injured the hearts of Korean people". Hashimoto also touched on the issue of Korean comfort women and said "Nothing injured the honor and dignity of women more than this and I would like to extend words of deep remorse and the heartfelt apology" (Joint press conference at summit meeting with President Kim Young Sam in South Korea).[26]
> October 8, 1996: Emperor Akihito said in a speech at a dinner with the South Korean president, Kim Dae Jung: "There was a period when our nation brought to bear great sufferings upon the people of the Korean Peninsula." "The deep sorrow that I feel over this will never be forgotten".[27]
> January 13, 1998: Press Secretary published: "Statement by Prime Minister Ryutaro Hashimoto on World War II prisoners of war. Q: At the meeting last night with Prime Minister Blair, did Prime Minister Hashimoto really apologize for the prisoners of war. Spokesman Hashimoto: The important thing is that the Prime Minister of Japan expressed the feelings of deep remorse and stated heartfelt apologies to the people who suffered in World War II directly to the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. This was the second meeting between Prime Minister Hashimoto and Prime Minister Blair and we considered the meeting very important, especially this year. Making use of this opportunity, Prime Minister Hashimoto expressed his remorse and apology on behalf of the Government of Japan; this is very important. Prime Minister Blair fully understands the importance of the statement made by Prime Minister Hashimoto on this issue. His press opportunities after the talks objectively reflect what the two gentlemen talked about" (Press Conference by the Press Secretary).[28] In a follow-up interview, spokesman Tanaka for Prime Minister Hashimoto clarified that "Our sense of apology and our sense of remorse was addressed to all the countries which have gone through the experiences of the last world war."[29]
> July 15, 1998: Prime Minister Ryutaro Hashimoto, in a letter to the Netherlands Prime Minister Willem Kok: "The Government of Japan, painfully aware of its moral responsibility concerning the issue of so-called "wartime comfort women," has been sincerely addressing this issue in close cooperation with the Asian Women's Fund which implements the projects to express the national atonement on this issue. Recognizing that the issue of comfort women, with an involvement of the Japanese military authorities at that time, was a grave affront to the honor and dignity of large numbers of women, I would like to convey to Your Excellency my most sincere apologies and remorse to all the women who underwent immeasurable and painful experiences and suffered incurable physical and psychological wounds as comfort women.... By the Statement of Prime Minister in 1995, the Government of Japan renewed the feelings of deep remorse and the heartfelt apology for tremendous damage and suffering caused by Japan to the people of many countries including the Netherlands during a certain period in the past. My cabinet has not modified this position at all, and I myself laid a wreath to the Indisch Monument with these feelings on the occasion of my visit to the Netherlands in June last year" (The contents of the letter of the then Japanese Prime Minister Ryutaro Hashimoto sent to ).[30]
> October 8, 1998: Prime Minister Keizō Obuchi said in a declaration: "Looking back on the relations between Japan and the Republic of Korea during this century, Prime Minister Obuchi regarded in a spirit of humility the fact of history that Japan caused, during a certain period in the past, tremendous damage and suffering to the people of the Republic of Korea through its colonial rule, and expressed his deep remorse and heartfelt apology for this fact. President Kim accepted with sincerity this statement of Prime Minister Obuchi's recognition of history and expressed his appreciation for it. He also expressed his view that the present calls upon both countries to overcome their unfortunate history and to build a future-oriented relationship based on reconciliation as well as good-neighborly and friendly cooperation" (Japan-South Korea Joint Declaration A New Japan-South Korea Partnership towards the Twenty-first Century).[31]
> November 26, 1998: Prime Minister Keizō Obuchi said in a declaration: "Both sides believe that squarely facing the past and correctly understanding history are the important foundation for further developing relations between Japan and China. The Japanese side observes the 1972 Joint Communique of the Government of Japan and the Government of the People's Republic of China and the August 15, 1995, Statement by former Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama. The Japanese side is keenly conscious of the responsibility for the serious distress and damage that Japan caused to the Chinese people through its aggression against China during a certain period in the past and expressed deep remorse for this. The Chinese side hopes that the Japanese side will learn lessons from the history and adhere to the path of peace and development. Based on this, both sides will develop long-standing relations of friendship" (Japan-China Joint Declaration On Building a Partnership of Friendship and Cooperation for Peace and Development).[32]
> 2000s[edit]​
> August 10, 2000: Consul-General of Japan in Hong Kong Itaru Umezu said: "In fact, Japan has clearly and repeatedly expressed its sincere remorse and apologies, and has dealt sincerely with reparation issues. These apologies were irrefutably expressed, in particular in Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama's official statement in 1995, which was based on a cabinet decision and which has subsequently been upheld by successive prime ministers, including Prime Minister Yoshirō Mori. Mr. Murayama said that Japan 'through its colonial rule and aggression, caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries, particularly to those of Asian nations. In the hope that no such mistake be made in the future, I regard, in a spirit of humility, these irrefutable facts of history, and express here once again my feelings of deep remorse and state my heartfelt apology'" (Japan Has Faced Its Past. _Far Eastern Economic Review_, August 10, 2000).[33]
> August 30, 2000: Minister for Foreign Affairs Yōhei Kōno said in an address during his visit to the People's Republic of China: "I believe that Japan's perception of history was clearly set out in the Statement by Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama issued, following a Cabinet Decision, on the fiftieth anniversary of the end of World War II. As a member of the Cabinet, I participated in the drafting of that Statement. The spirit contained therein has been carried forth by successive administrations and is now the common view of the large number of Japanese people" (Address by Minister for Foreign Affairs Yōhei Kōno During His Visit to the People's Republic of China).[34]
> April 3, 2001: Chief Cabinet Secretary Yasuo Fukuda said: "Japan humbly accepts that for a period in the not too distant past, it caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries, particularly to those of Asian nations, through its colonial rule and aggression, and expresses its deep remorse and heartfelt apology for this. Such recognition has been succeeded by subsequent Cabinets and there is no change regarding this point in the present Cabinet" (Comments by the Chief Cabinet Secretary, Yasuo Fukuda on the history textbooks to be used in junior high schools from 2002).[35]
> September 8, 2001: Minister for Foreign Affairs Makiko Tanaka said in a speech: "We have never forgotten that Japan caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries during the last war. Many lost their precious lives and many were wounded. The war has left an incurable scar on many people, including former prisoners of war. Facing these facts of history in a spirit of humility, I reaffirm today our feelings of deep remorse and heartfelt apology expressed in the Prime Minister Murayama's statement of 1995" (Speech by Minister for Foreign Affairs Makiko Tanaka at the Ceremony in Commemoration of 50th anniversary of the Signing of the San Francisco Peace Treaty).[36]
> October 15, 2001: Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi said: "During the talks, President Kim highly appreciated the words of the Prime Minister Koizumi at Sodaemun Independence Park, in which he expressed remorse and apology for Japan's colonial domination" (Japanese prime minister visits South Korea).[37]
> 2001: Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi (Also signed by all the prime ministers since 1995, including Ryutaro Hashimoto, Keizō Obuchi, Yoshirō Mori) said in a letter: "As Prime Minister of Japan, I thus extend anew my most sincere apologies and remorse to all the women who underwent immeasurable and painful experiences and suffered incurable physical and psychological wounds as comfort women. We must not evade the weight of the past, nor should we evade our responsibilities for the future. I believe that our country, painfully aware of its moral responsibilities, with feelings of apology and remorse, should face up squarely to its past history and accurately convey it to future generations" (Letter from Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi to the former comfort women).[38]
> September 17, 2002: Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi said: "The Japanese side regards, in a spirit of humility, the facts of history that Japan caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of Korea through its colonial rule in the past, and expressed deep remorse and heartfelt apology" (Japan-DPRK Pyongyang Declaration).[39]
> August 15, 2003: Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi said: "During the war, Japan caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries, particularly to those of Asian nations. On behalf of the people of Japan, I hereby renew my feelings of profound remorse as I express my sincere mourning to the victims" (Address by Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi at the 58th Memorial Ceremony for the War Dead).[40]
> April 22, 2005: Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi said: "Japan squarely faces these facts of history in a spirit of humility. And with feelings of deep remorse and heartfelt apology always engraved in mind, Japan has resolutely maintained, consistently since the end of World War II, never turning into a military power but an economic power, its principle of resolving all matters by peaceful means, without recourse to use of force. Japan once again states its resolve to contribute to the peace and prosperity of the world in the future as well, prizing the relationship of trust it enjoys with the nations of the world." (Address by the Prime Minister of Japan at the Asia-African Summit 2005).[41]
> August 15, 2005: Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi said: "In the past, Japan, through its colonial rule and aggression, caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries, particularly to those of Asian nations. Sincerely facing these facts of history, I once again express my feelings of deep remorse and heartfelt apology, and also express the feelings of mourning for all victims, both at home and abroad, in the war. I am determined not to allow the lessons of that horrible war to erode, and to contribute to the peace and prosperity of the world without ever again waging a war."[42]
> March 1, 2007: Prime Minister Shinzō Abe stated in a newspaper article that there was no evidence that the Japanese government had kept sex slaves, even though the Japanese government had already admitted the use of brothels in 1993. On March 27, the Japanese parliament issued an official apology.[43] This was regarding the surviving comfort women who had demanded an apology from the Japanese government for being used as sex slaves.
> May 9, 2009: The Japanese government, through its ambassador in the U.S., apologized to former American prisoners of war who suffered in the Bataan Death March.[44]
> 2010s[edit]​
> February 11, 2010: Foreign Minister Katsuya Okada said: "I believe what happened 100 years ago deprived Koreans of their country and national pride. I can understand the feelings of the people who lost their country and had their pride wounded," Okada said during a joint news conference with South Korean Foreign Minister Yu Myung-hwan. (This was a statement marking the 100th anniversary of Japan's colonial annexation of Korea, and not in reference to Japan's war acts in particular.)[45]
> August 10, 2010: Prime Minister Naoto Kan expressed "deep regret over the suffering inflicted" during the Empire of Japan's colonial rule over Korea. Japan's Kyodo News also reported that Cabinet members endorsed the statement. In addition, Kan said that Japan will hand over precious cultural artifacts that South Korea has been demanding. Among them were records of an ancient Korean royal dynasty.[46]
> September 13, 2010: Foreign Minister Katsuya Okada apologized to a group of six former American soldiers who during World War II were held as prisoners of war by the Japanese, including 90-year-old Lester Tenney, a survivor of the Bataan Death March in 1942. The six and their families and the families of two deceased soldiers were invited to visit Japan at the expense of the Japanese government in a program that will see more American former prisoners of war and former prisoners of war from other countries visit Japan in the future.[47]
> December 7, 2010: Prime Minister Naoto Kan apologized for Korea's suffering under colonization as part of a statement marking the 100th anniversary of the annexation in 1910. "I express a renewed feeling of deep remorse and state my heartfelt apology for the tremendous damage and suffering caused by colonial rule," Kan said. Kan said Japan colonized Korea "against the will of the Korean people" who suffered great damage to their national pride and loss of culture and sovereignty as a result and added that he wants to take an honest look at his country's past with the courage and humility to address its history.[48]
> March 3, 2011: Foreign Minister Seiji Maehara apologized to a group of Australian POWs visiting Japan as guests of the Government of Japan for the ill-treatment they received while in Imperial Japanese captivity.[49]
> December 8, 2011: Parliamentary Vice Minister for Foreign Affairs Toshiyuki Kat apologized to Canada for their treatment of Canadian POW's after the Battle of Hong Kong.[50]
> November 13, 2013: Former Japanese Prime Minister Hatoyama Yukio offered personal apology for Japan's wartime crimes, especially the Nanking Massacre, "As a Japanese citizen, I feel that it's my duty to apologise for even just one Chinese civilian killed brutally by Japanese soldiers and that such action cannot be excused by saying that it occurred during war."[51]
> April 9, 2014: Japanese Ambassador to the Philippines Toshinao Urabe expressed "heartfelt apology" and "deep remorse" and vowed "never to wage war again" at the Day of Valor ceremony in Bataan.[52]
> April 29, 2015: Prime Minister Shinzō Abe, during the first speech of a Japanese prime minister at a Joint session of the United States Congress, stated "deep repentance" for Japan's actions during World War II.[53]
> December 28, 2015: Japanese Foreign Minister Fumio Kishida and South Korean Foreign Minister Yun Byung-se made an announcement at a joint press conference, which consisted of their respective statements on behalf of Japan and South Korea. Kishida stated, "The issue of comfort women, with an involvement of the Japanese military authorities at that time, was a grave affront to the honor and dignity of large numbers of women, and the Government of Japan is painfully aware of responsibilities from this perspective. As Prime Minister of Japan, Prime Minister Abe expresses anew his most sincere apologies and remorse to all the women who underwent immeasurable and painful experiences and suffered incurable physical and psychological wounds as comfort women." The statement went on to explain that "the Government of Japan will now take measures to heal psychological wounds of all former comfort women through its budget" and that it had been decided that the South Korean government would "establish a foundation for the purpose of providing support for the former comfort women". In return, Yun stated that his government "acknowledges the fact that the Government of Japan is concerned about the statue built in front of the Embassy of Japan in Seoul from the viewpoint of preventing any disturbance of the peace of the mission or impairment of its dignity, and will strive to solve this issue in an appropriate manner". Both stated that this agreement will "finally and irreversibly" resolve the contentious issue and that "on the premise that the Government of Japan will steadily implement the measures it announced", both countries "will refrain from accusing or criticizing each other regarding this issue in the international community, including at the United Nations".[54]
> 2020s[edit]​
> August 15, 2020: At a memorial ceremony to mark the 75th anniversary of the end of World War II and the war dead, Emperor Naruhito expressed "deep remorse" over Japan's wartime past and he stated “I earnestly hope that the ravages of war will never again be repeated”.[55]
> Comments clarifying past apologies[edit]​
> September 6, 1997: Prime Minister Ryutaro Hashimoto said: "In 1995, on the 50th anniversary of the end of World War II, the Government of Japan expressed its resolution through the statement by the Prime Minister, which states that during a certain period in the past, Japan's conduct caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries, including China, and the Prime Minister expressed his feeling of deep remorse and stated his heartfelt apology, while giving his word to make efforts for peace. I myself was one of the ministers who was involved in drafting this statement. I would like to repeat that this is the official position of the Government of Japan. During the summit meeting that I had during my visit to China, I have made this point very clear in a frank manner to the Chinese side. Premier Li Peng said that he concurs completely with my remarks" (Ministry of Foreign Affairs Press Conference on: Visit of Prime Minister Ryutaro Hashimoto to the People's Republic of China).[56]
> Letter from Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi to the former comfort women
> 
> 
> October 18, 2013: Prime Minister Shinzō Abe said: "Japan inflicted tremendous damage and suffering on people in many countries, especially in Asia. The Abe Cabinet will take the same stance as that of past Cabinets."[57]"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> List of war apology statements issued by Japan - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org


Yeah. Decades later.


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## Unkotare

Weatherman2020 said:


> Yeah. Decades later.


Check your math again.


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## Weatherman2020

Happy Day.


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## BackAgain

The temperature today is expected to reach a balmy 4,000 degrees Celsius.


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## Anathema

gipper said:


> Mass murder of defenseless women and children, is nothing short of the most heinous thing a nation can do.


I have zero sympathy for those people. Their government picked a fight it couldn’t win, then decided to fight to the death and treat prisoners like shit. They refused to accept that they were defeated and kept that information from their population.

 If it saved even ONE American life, It was worth every bit of both atomic bomb attacks.


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## Weatherman2020

Anathema said:


> I have zero sympathy for those people. Their government picked a fight it couldn’t win, then decided to fight to the death and treat prisoners like shit. They refused to accept that they were defeated and kept that information from their population.
> 
> If it saved even ONE American life, It was worth every bit of both atomic bomb attacks.


We know what those Japanese women and children did to those they deemed lesser.


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## Anathema

Weatherman2020 said:


> We know what those Japanese women and children did to those they deemed lesser


They were a support system for the government and the military. That makes them a totally legitimate target. Especially in a nation whose government has claimed they would never surrender.


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## HenryBHough

Sometimes one has to hit a jackass on the nose with a sledge hammer to get its attention.  

Japan was being a jackass when it didn't accept surrender.

Ergo:  The hammer.


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## Unkotare

Weatherman2020 said:


> We know what those Japanese women and children did to those they deemed lesser.


"Women and children"?


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## Unkotare

America is supposed to be better than that.


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## Weatherman2020

Unkotare said:


> "Women and children"?


Yes. Women and children. 
I know as a teacher you’re not up to speed on history, I suggest you learn.


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## gipper

Weatherman2020 said:


> We know what those Japanese women and children did to those they deemed lesser.


What did they do?


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## Moonglow

Fortunes of war I suppose.


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## Moonglow

Polishprince said:


> Liberals cheered when Clinton bombed Serbian civilians in his Wag the Dog Campaign against Milosevic and the Yugoslav Republic


I applaud anything being blowed up real good.


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## Unkotare

Weatherman2020 said:


> Yes. Women and children.
> I know as a teacher you’re not up to speed on history, I suggest you learn.


There were no women and children in the Japanese Imperial Military. Our military base was attacked by an enemy military. We defeated that military, as we should have. Then we put hundreds of thousands of AMERICAN CITIZENS into fdr CONCENTRATION CAMPS,  and finally slaughtered hundreds of thousands of civilians in a defeated nation. America is supposed to be better than that.

Disagree if you are willing to accept that you hate America and are no better than the worst terrorist scumbag.


----------



## HenryBHough

Unkotare said:


> There were no women and children in the Japanese Imperial Military. Our military base was attacked by an enemy military. We defeated that military, as we should have. Then we slaughtered hundreds of thousands of civilians in a defeated nation. America is supposed to be better than that.
> 
> Disagree if you are willing to accept that you hate America and are no better than the worst terrorist scumbag.


You're leaving to get back to Japan?  When?


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## Unkotare

HenryBHough said:


> You're leaving to get back to Japan?  When?


"Back"?
I was born, raised, and have lived most of my life in Boston. What the fuck are you talking about?


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## Polishprince

Unkotare said:


> There were no women and children in the Japanese Imperial Military. Our military base was attacked by an enemy military. We defeated that military, as we should have. Then we slaughtered hundreds of thousands of civilians in a defeated nation. America is supposed to be better than that.
> 
> Disagree if you are willing to accept that you hate America and are no better than the worst terrorist scumbag.



America bombed the hell out of both Japanese and German cities full of women and children during WW2.

Nothing that terribly remarkable about the A-Bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki except for the fact that they were single bombs instead of waves of bombers which America deployed on other targets.


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## mudwhistle

Polishprince said:


> America bombed the hell out of both Japanese and German cities full of women and children during WW2.
> 
> Nothing that terribly remarkable about the A-Bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki except for the fact that they were single bombs instead of waves of bombers which America deployed on other targets.


Part of the reason for the A bomb is that Europe was closer to Great Britain....so they could carpet-bomb Germany. 
Carpet-bombing Japan would be a much more difficult premise....so they needed something to do the job with just a couple of aircraft.


----------



## fncceo

Weatherman2020 said:


> Happy Day.
> View attachment 678772



The B-29 is a very pretty ship.  It was, in fact, the most expensive development program of the war, including The Manhattan Project.

I remember reading somewhere that a member of The Japanese Royal Family wrote a poem about the beautiful, silver plane, that was raining down destruction.


----------



## gipper

Polishprince said:


> America bombed the hell out of both Japanese and German cities full of women and children during WW2.
> 
> Nothing that terribly remarkable about the A-Bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki except for the fact that they were single bombs instead of waves of bombers which America deployed on other targets.


All heinous acts and all war crimes,for which no one has been prosecuted.


----------



## Weatherman2020

Unkotare said:


> There were no women and children in the Japanese Imperial Military. Our military base was attacked by an enemy military. We defeated that military, as we should have. Then we put hundreds of thousands of AMERICAN CITIZENS into fdr CONCENTRATION CAMPS,  and finally slaughtered hundreds of thousands of civilians in a defeated nation. America is supposed to be better than that.
> 
> Disagree if you are willing to accept that you hate America and are no better than the worst terrorist scumbag.


March 1945: every single male age 15 to 60 and every single female age 17 to 40 was now a combatant. And with no uniforms that made every civilian a  legitimate target.


----------



## Weatherman2020

gipper said:


> All heinous acts and all war crimes,for which no one has been prosecuted.


March 1945: every single male age 15 to 60 and every single female age 17 to 40 was now a combatant. And with no uniforms that made every civilian a  legitimate target.


----------



## gipper

Weatherman2020 said:


> March 1945: every single male age 15 to 60 and every single female age 17 to 40 was now a combatant. And with no uniforms that made every civilian a  legitimate target.


Absurd. You whackos believe in total war until it comes to your town, then it’s a war crime.

Most of them were starving and unarmed. Nearly all able bodied Japanese men were already in the military.


----------



## HenryBHough

Unkotare said:


> "Back"?
> I was born, raised, and have lived most of my life in Boston. What the fuck are you talking about?


All liberals lie.  So when are you returning to the land you hold so dear that you have wet dreams about it having won World War II?


----------



## JoeB131

A yes, the Annual Argument over Hiroshima and Nagasaki. 

A few points. 

1) The bombing was probably unnecessary because Japan was already looking to surrender. 
2) The entry of the USSR into the Pacific War probably had a lot more to do with Japan's ultimate surrender, as it opened up the war on a couple more fronts they weren't ready for. 
3) Much of the handwringing we do every year is probably more of a reflection on us.  Yes, WE'VE had to live with generations of the specter of nuclear annihilation, duck and cover, Mad Max movies, and so on.  To the people at the time, the war had already dragged on for six years, 70 million had died, and to them, the A-Bomb was just another weapon in a war that had seen so many new and awful weapons.  
4) In many ways, we should be HAPPY that Hiroshima had happened.  Imagine a world where these weapons were stockpiled, and we had no idea what they did to people.


----------



## Weatherman2020

gipper said:


> Absurd. You whackos believe in total war until it comes to your town, then it’s a war crime.
> 
> Most of them were starving and unarmed. Nearly all able bodied Japanese men were already in the military.


No shock you call actual history absurd. Everyone with your opinion about WW2 is just as ignorant as you.


----------



## Weatherman2020

JoeB131 said:


> A yes, the Annual Argument over Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
> 
> A few points.
> 
> 1) The bombing was probably unnecessary because Japan was already looking to surrender.
> 2) The entry of the USSR into the Pacific War probably had a lot more to do with Japan's ultimate surrender, as it opened up the war on a couple more fronts they weren't ready for.
> 3) Much of the handwringing we do every year is probably more of a reflection on us.  Yes, WE'VE had to live with generations of the specter of nuclear annihilation, duck and cover, Mad Max movies, and so on.  To the people at the time, the war had already dragged on for six years, 70 million had died, and to them, the A-Bomb was just another weapon in a war that had seen so many new and awful weapons.
> 4) In many ways, we should be HAPPY that Hiroshima had happened.  Imagine a world where these weapons were stockpiled, and we had no idea what they did to people.


Again, CluelessMaximus about history. 

Japanese Army attempted a coup to keep the war going even after the 2nd bomb.


----------



## BackAgain

Polishprince said:


> America bombed the hell out of both Japanese and German cities full of women and children during WW2.
> 
> Nothing that terribly remarkable about the A-Bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki except for the fact that they were single bombs instead of waves of bombers which America deployed on other targets.


That’s actually true. I didn’t know for most of my life what we did to wage war against the Japanese Empire on their homeland. When I say “we” I mean mostly the American military with its amazing air power. The difference between incinerating large cities with heavy bombing raids and incendiary bombs (on highly flammable civilian population centers) and doing so with one bomb each on two such mostly civilian targets is not that much of a difference.

That said, I don’t doubt for one moment that the Japanese people were fully prepared to fight to the last man, woman and available child against their “enemy” if we had not chosen to make use of the military methods then employed. The casualties to both sides would have been vastly worse.


----------



## Weatherman2020

There were no civilians in Japan. 

When 1945 began, Japanese leaders recognized their nation’s dark military situation, but they rejected any form of surrender. Instead, they devised a sequenced military and political strategy called Ketsu Go (Operation Decisive.) Its fundamental premise: Americans possessed enormous material power but their morale was brittle. The plan aimed to meet the initial invasion of Japan (which they correctly anticipated would be on southern Kyushu) with massive ground and air forces. These would either defeat the invasion attempt or at least inflict such horrific casualties—American and Japanese--that American will to continue the war would be broken. Then in the second phase of the plan, Japan would obtain a negotiated settlement of the war, far from the declared American aim of the unconditional surrender of Japan. That settlement would certainly preclude an occupation of Japan and guarantee that the old order would continue.

The Japanese armed forces burgeoned in 1945 under urgent mobilization from about 4.5 million men under arms to over 6 million by August. But in March, Japan mustered a vast additional body of combatants: every single male age 15 to 60 and every single female age 17 to 40. This inducted about a quarter or more of Japan’s total population, about 18 to 20 million people. Japan lacked uniforms or any other visible marker to distinguish this new sea of combatants from the remaining civilian population. Multiple millions of these nearly mobilized former male and female civilians now combatants, would be in the Kyushu invasion area.


----------



## gipper

BackAgain said:


> That’s actually true. I didn’t know for most of my life what we did to wage war against the Japanese Empire on their homeland. When I say “we” I mean mostly the American military with its amazing air power. The difference between incinerating large cities with heavy bombing raids and incendiary bombs (on highly flammable civilian population centers) and doing so with one bomb each on two such mostly civilian targets is not that much of a difference.
> 
> That said, I don’t doubt for one moment that the Japanese people were fully prepared to fight to the last man, woman and available child against their “enemy” if we had not chosen to make use of the military methods then employed. The casualties to both sides would have been vastly worse.


Proving again you know nothing. The Japanese people were starving by 1945. Most of their young fighting age men were dead or overseas. They had no air or naval capabilities.

The people had no arms in which to fight, unless you fear pitchforks. You are a pussy so you likely think pitchforks would stop the world’s greatest military.


----------



## RetiredGySgt

gipper said:


> Proving again you know nothing. The Japanese people were starving by 1945. Most of their young fighting age men were dead or overseas. They had no air or naval capabilities.
> 
> The people had no arms in which to fight, unless you fear pitchforks. You are a pussy so you likely think pitchforks would stop the world’s greatest military.


the plan was to use bamboo spears and to human wave attack the invasion beaches


----------



## Polishprince

gipper said:


> Proving again you know nothing. The Japanese people were starving by 1945. Most of their young fighting age men were dead or overseas. They had no air or sea capabilities.
> 
> The people had no arms in which to fight, unless you fear pitchforks. You are a pussy so you likely think pitchforks would stop the world’s greatest military.



A lot more people of both nations would have been killed in a US invasion of the Japanese homeland, than by a couple of A-bombs.

Further, the USSR was threatening to invade and partition Japan as well.   Would the world have been better off with a wholely or partially Communist Japan?    I suppose that even if America hadn't dropped the A-bomb, Japan would still have surrendered in very quick order before that would have happened.

But President Truman was unwilling to take that risk.


----------



## JoeB131

Weatherman2020 said:


> Japanese Army attempted a coup to keep the war going even after the 2nd bomb.



Wow, you think Coups are bad things now?  

A coup that went nowhere and had more to do with the Emperor considering surrender due to the USSR entering the war than the bombs.


----------



## RetiredGySgt

JoeB131 said:


> Wow, you think Coups are bad things now?
> 
> A coup that went nowhere and had more to do with the Emperor considering surrender due to the USSR entering the war than the bombs.


you make shit up in every new thread on this.


----------



## Weatherman2020

gipper said:


> Proving again you know nothing. The Japanese people were starving by 1945. Most of their young fighting age men were dead or overseas. They had no air or naval capabilities.
> 
> The people had no arms in which to fight, unless you fear pitchforks. You are a pussy so you likely think pitchforks would stop the world’s greatest military.


What infrastructure does the Taliban have?

Yet they beat the US and USSR, two largest military forces in the world. 

Again, know your history


----------



## Weatherman2020

JoeB131 said:


> Wow, you think Coups are bad things now?
> 
> A coup that went nowhere and had more to do with the Emperor considering surrender due to the USSR entering the war than the bombs.


Without the bombs the Emperor would have had the same opinion about the war he had on August 1 and August 21.


----------



## JoeB131

Polishprince said:


> A lot more people of both nations would have been killed in a US invasion of the Japanese homeland, than by a couple of A-bombs.
> 
> Further, the USSR was threatening to invade and partition Japan as well. Would the world have been better off with a wholely or partially Communist Japan? I suppose that even if America hadn't dropped the A-bomb, Japan would still have surrendered in very quick order before that would have happened.
> 
> But President Truman was unwilling to take that risk.



Actually, the US had already agreed to a partition of Japan with the USSR, the UK and China.  

Then we did backsies and Stalin didn't care because he ALREADY had his  hands full with Eastern Europe and China.


----------



## JoeB131

Weatherman2020 said:


> Without the bombs the Emperor would have had the same opinion about the war he had on August 1 and August 21.



Not really. 

You have to understand what Japan's war aims were at that point.  They wanted to retain some of their territorial gains, and retain the Emperor on the throne.  In short, they wanted a return to the pre-war status quo.  

They had hoped the USSR would broker a peace deal, but once the USSR had entered the war in the Pacific, that became impossible.  

The other part of the story was that the US backed down from it's demand, in that they stopped insisting on Hirohito's abdication


----------



## BackAgain

gipper said:


> Proving again you know nothing. The Japanese people were starving by 1945. Most of their young fighting age men were dead or overseas. They had no air or sea capabilities.
> 
> The people had no arms in which to fight, unless you fear pitchforks. You are a pussy so you likely think pitchforks would stop the world’s greatest military.


You prove in a regular basis that you “know” absolutely nothing. Gimp: face facts.  You’re 52 cards short of a full deck. 

The military analyses that went into the decision — back then —from *actual* military advisors considered the prospect of us losing men (killed in action) and non-fatal casualties of being minimally about a quarter of a million. 



			http://theamericanpresident.us/images/projections.pdf
		


It seems obvious that their views were not only better informed than yours, but also far more reliable. And that doesn’t even consider the resulting slaughter of Japanese soldiers and civilians. Gimp, you’re just another in a long line of self important but woefully ignorant gibbering chimpanzees. Fuck off, you dopey troll.


----------



## AZrailwhale

Weatherman2020 said:


> What infrastructure does the Taliban have?
> 
> Yet they beat the US and USSR, two largest military forces in the world.
> 
> Again, know your history


The Taliban didn't beat either the USA or the USSR.  It simply outlasted them while losing every battle.  That's something religious fanatics are good at.  When death is better than living, it's easy to keep fighting an endless war.


----------



## Weatherman2020

JoeB131 said:


> Not really.
> 
> You have to understand what Japan's war aims were at that point.  They wanted to retain some of their territorial gains, and retain the Emperor on the throne.  In short, they wanted a return to the pre-war status quo.
> 
> They had hoped the USSR would broker a peace deal, but once the USSR had entered the war in the Pacific, that became impossible.
> 
> The other part of the story was that the US backed down from it's demand, in that they stopped insisting on Hirohito's abdication


Other than having a number of friends who were there preparing for the invasion and talking with my best friends dad who was an Imperial Japanese Army officer preparing the defense of the homeland and a WW2 historian (European theater more for disclosure) what am I missing?

Japan had zero intention of surrendering until the 2nd bomb.


----------



## Weatherman2020

AZrailwhale said:


> The Taliban didn't beat either the USA or the USSR.  It simply outlasted them while losing every battle.  That's something religious fanatics are good at.  When death is better than living, it's easy to keep fighting an endless war.


He who controls the land won the war.


----------



## gipper

RetiredGySgt said:


> the plan was to use bamboo spears and to human wave attack the invasion beaches


Yeah and you think they could have beaten the US military. Lol.


----------



## gipper

Weatherman2020 said:


> What infrastructure does the Taliban have?
> 
> Yet they beat the US and USSR, two largest military forces in the world.
> 
> Again, know your history


Silly. The Japanese were a first world nation at the time. They weren’t goat herders and living in caves. They had massive cities with first world infrastructure. 

Again, we need to understand history.


----------



## BothWings

And here is your exploding birthday cake! 🎂


----------



## gipper

Polishprince said:


> A lot more people of both nations would have been killed in a US invasion of the Japanese homeland, than by a couple of A-bombs.
> 
> Further, the USSR was threatening to invade and partition Japan as well.   Would the world have been better off with a wholely or partially Communist Japan?    I suppose that even if America hadn't dropped the A-bomb, Japan would still have surrendered in very quick order before that would have happened.
> 
> But President Truman was unwilling to take that risk.


An invasion was never necessary, unless you’re an imperialist. Japan was completely defenseless. It’s military entirely destroyed. Accept their surrender terms and go home, but imperialists don’t do the right thing.


----------



## gipper

JoeB131 said:


> Not really.
> 
> You have to understand what Japan's war aims were at that point.  They wanted to retain some of their territorial gains, and retain the Emperor on the throne.  In short, they wanted a return to the pre-war status quo.
> 
> They had hoped the USSR would broker a peace deal, but once the USSR had entered the war in the Pacific, that became impossible.
> 
> The other part of the story was that the US backed down from it's demand, in that they stopped insisting on Hirohito's abdication


Yes, the US accepted the one requirement, that we leave the emperor alone…but only after Truman incinerated thousands of defenseless women and children. WAR CRIMINAL!


----------



## RetiredGySgt

gipper said:


> Yeah and you think they could have beaten the US military. Lol.


they didnt plan to beat us just cost us enough to make us agree to terms.


----------



## RetiredGySgt

gipper said:


> Yes, the US accepted the one requirement, that we leave the emperor alone…but only after Truman incinerated thousands of defenseless women and children. WAR CRIMINAL!


we did not ask for the Emperor ever. Our terms never said he had to leave,


----------



## gipper

RetiredGySgt said:


> they didnt plan to beat us just cost us enough to make us agree to terms.


Yeah like leave the emperor alone which Truman agreed to, only after his war crime. Somehow this means nothing to you.


----------



## gipper

RetiredGySgt said:


> we did not ask for the Emperor ever. Our terms never said he had to leave,


Yes it did. The Japanese feared the USG would hang the emperor in front of the palace.


----------



## RetiredGySgt

gipper said:


> Yes it did. The Japanese feared the USG would hang the emperor in front of the palace.


except you can not link to any such plan nor demand ever by the US or allies.


----------



## gipper

RetiredGySgt said:


> except you can not link to any such plan nor demand ever by the US or allies.


Idiot. Do you not know what unconditional surrender means?


----------



## RetiredGySgt

gipper said:


> Idiot. Do you not know what unconditional surrender means?


it means we set the conditions now provide a link to the US EVER saying they would do anything to the Emperor or admit you are a fool and liar.


----------



## gipper

RetiredGySgt said:


> it means we set the conditions now provide a link to the US EVER saying they would do anything to the Emperor or admit you are a fool and liar.


Lol.


----------



## RetiredGySgt

gipper said:


> Lol.


I see you cant do it thanks for admitting you are a retard.


----------



## gipper

RetiredGySgt said:


> I see you cant do it thanks for admitting you are a retard.


Lol


----------



## Borillar

Polishprince said:


> The devious Japanese laughed like hell at the Americans about Pearl Harbor.   I remember as a kid , Japanese sports heroes like Professor Tanaka and Mr. Fuji poking fun at us "stupid Americans".   At Hiroshima, they got their comeuppance.


Wrestling isn't real. Wrestling heels Professor Tanaka and Mr Fuji were both Americans born in Hawaii.

That said, if you mess with a bull, you get the horns. Japan found that out the hard way.


----------



## Mashmont

OldLady said:


> Ironically, the most horrific weapon we have yet invented became the instrument of peace.  No nuclear armed country dares use it, knowing they will be turned to glass in minutes.


If I were smart enough to build a weapon that could annihilate the world, I would keep it to myself.  Evil leftwingers always manage to steal these things.   Same with big piles of money.


----------



## Weatherman2020

gipper said:


> Silly. The Japanese were a first world nation at the time. They weren’t goat herders and living in caves. They had massive cities with first world infrastructure.
> 
> Again, we need to understand history.


You made my point for me. 
And no, the Japanese were not starving in August 45.


----------



## Jarlaxle

Unkotare said:


> "Admiral William Leahy, White House chief of staff and chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff during the war. Leahy wrote in his 1950 memoirs that "*the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan*. *The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender*." Moreover, Leahy continued, "in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children."



That is bullshit. *Even after two atomic bombs, surrendering damn near got Hirohito assassinated!*



mudwhistle said:


> Part of the reason for the A bomb is that Europe was closer to Great Britain....so they could carpet-bomb Germany.
> Carpet-bombing Japan would be a much more difficult premise....so they needed something to do the job with just a couple of aircraft.



Bullshit. B-29s carrying incendiaries had nearly leveled most cities in Japan.


----------



## Jarlaxle

gipper said:


> All heinous acts and all war crimes,for which no one has been prosecuted.



Bullshit. By the standards of 1945, both cities were valid targets. The only war crime is losing.



RetiredGySgt said:


> the plan was to use bamboo spears and to human wave attack the invasion beaches



True, though children as young as nine were also being trained as suicide bombers.


----------



## Jarlaxle

gipper said:


> Yeah and you think they could have beaten the US military. Lol.



Stop listening to those voices in your head. Nobody but you has claimed that.



RetiredGySgt said:


> we did not ask for the Emperor ever. Our terms never said he had to leave,



He should have been dragged from his palace, knelt down, and shot.



gipper said:


> Yes it did. The Japanese feared the USG would hang the emperor in front of the palace.



Which is exactly what should have been done, though simply shooting him would have been easier.


----------



## Unkotare

Unkotare said:


> Are American values determined by the actions of other nations? Is that what you think?


.


----------



## Unkotare

Unkotare said:


> "1950s[edit]​
> 1957: Prime Minister Kishi Nobusuke said to the people of Burma: "We view with deep regret the vexation we caused to the people of Burma in the war just passed. In a desire to atone, if only partially, for the pain suffered, Japan is prepared to meet fully and with goodwill its obligations for war reparations. The Japan of today is not the Japan of the past, but, as its Constitution indicates, is a peace-loving nation."[6]
> 1957: Prime Minister Kishi Nobusuke said to the people of Australia: "It is my official duty, and my personal desire, to express to you and through you to the people of Australia, our heartfelt sorrow for what occurred in the war."[7]
> 1960s[edit]​
> June 22, 1965: Minister of Foreign Affairs Shiina Etsusaburo said to the people of South Korea: "In our two countries' long history there have been unfortunate times, it is truly regrettable and we are deeply remorseful" (Signing of the Treaty on Basic Relations between Japan and South Korea).
> 1970s[edit]​
> September 29, 1972: Prime Minister Kakuei Tanaka said to the people of the People's Republic of China: "The Japanese side is keenly conscious of the responsibility for the serious damage that Japan caused in the past to the Chinese people through war, and deeply reproaches itself. Further, the Japanese side reaffirms its position that it intends to realize the normalization of relations between the two countries from the stand of fully understanding 'the three principles for the restoration of relations' put forward by the Government of the People's Republic of China. The Chinese side expresses its welcome for this" (Joint Communique of the Government of Japan and the Government of the People's Republic of China).[8]
> 1980s[edit]​
> August 24, 1982: Prime Minister Zenkō Suzuki said: "I am painfully aware of Japan's responsibility for inflicting serious damages [on Asian nations] during the past war." "We need to recognize that there are criticisms that condemn [Japan's occupation] as invasion" (Press Conference on the textbook controversy).[9]
> August 26, 1982: Chief Cabinet Secretary Kiichi Miyazawa said to the people of the Republic of Korea: "1. The Japanese Government and the Japanese people are deeply aware of the fact that acts by our country in the past caused tremendous suffering and damage to the peoples of Asian countries, including the Republic of Korea (ROK) and China, and have followed the path of a pacifist state with remorse and determination that such acts must never be repeated. Japan has recognized, in the Japan-ROK Joint Communique, of 1965, that the 'past relations are regrettable, and Japan feels deep remorse,' and in the Japan-China Joint Communique, that Japan is 'keenly conscious of the responsibility for the serious damage that Japan caused in the past to the Chinese people through war and deeply reproaches itself.' These statements confirm Japan's remorse and determination which I stated above and this recognition has not changed at all to this day. 2. This spirit in the Japan-ROK Joint Communique, and the Japan-China Joint Communique, naturally should also be respected in Japan's school education and textbook authorization.
> September 6, 1984: Emperor Hirohito said to President Chun Doo Hwan: "It is indeed regrettable that there was an unfortunate past between us for a period in this century and I believe that it should not be repeated again." (Meeting with President Chun Doo Hwan.)[10]
> September 7, 1984: Prime Minister Yasuhiro Nakasone said: "There was a period in this century when Japan brought to bear great sufferings upon your country and its people. I would like to state here that the government and people of Japan feel a deep regret for this error."[11]
> October 23, 1985: Prime Minister Yasuhiro Nakasone, in a speech to the United Nations, said: "On June 6, 1945, when the UN Charter was signed in San Francisco, Japan was still fighting a senseless war with 40 nations. Since the end of the war, Japan has profoundly regretted the unleashing of rampant ultra nationalism and militarism and the war that brought great devastation to the people of many countries around the world and to our country as well" (Speech to the United Nations).
> 1989: Prime Minister Takeshita Noboru, in a speech in the Japanese Diet, said: "As we have made clear previously at repeated opportunities, the Japanese government and the Japanese people are deeply conscious of the fact that the actions of our country in the past caused suffering and loss to many people in neighboring countries. Starting from our regret and resolve not to repeat such things a second time, we have followed a course as a "Peace Nation" since then. This awareness and regret should be emphasized especially in the relationship between our countries and the Korean Peninsula, our nearest neighbors both geographically and historically. At this opportunity as we face a new situation in the Korean Peninsula, again, to all peoples of the globe, concerning the relationship of the past, we want to express our deep regret and sorrow" (Speech in the Japanese Diet).
> 1990s[edit]​
> April 18, 1990: Minister of Foreign Affairs Taro Nakayama said to the people of South Korea: "Japan is deeply sorry for the tragedy in which these (Korean) people were moved to Sakhalin not of their own free will but by the design of the Japanese government and had to remain there after the conclusion of the war" (188th National Diet Session Lower House Committee of Foreign Affairs).[12]
> May 24, 1990: Emperor Akihito, in a meeting with South Korean President Roh Tae Woo, said: "Reflecting upon the suffering that your people underwent during this unfortunate period, which was brought about by our nation, I cannot but feel the deepest remorse" (Meeting with President Roh Tae Woo).[13]
> May 25, 1990: Prime Minister Toshiki Kaifu, in a meeting with President Roh Tae Woo, said: "I would like to take the opportunity here to humbly reflect upon how the people of the Korean Peninsula went through unbearable pain and sorrow as a result of our country's actions during a certain period in the past and to express that we are sorry" (Summit meeting with President Roh Tae Woo in Japan).[14]
> January 1, 1992: Prime Minister Kiichi Miyazawa, in a press conference, said: "Concerning the comfort women, I apologize from the bottom of my heart and feel remorse for those people who suffered indescribable hardships".
> January 16, 1992: Prime Minister Kiichi Miyazawa, in a speech at dinner with President Roh Tae Woo, said: "We the Japanese people, first and foremost, have to bear in our mind the fact that your people experienced unbearable suffering and sorrow during a certain period in the past because of our nation's act, and never forget the feeling of remorse. I, as a prime minister, would like to once again express a heartfelt remorse and apology to the people of your nation".[15]
> January 17, 1992: Prime Minister Kiichi Miyazawa, at a policy speech on a visit to South Korea, said:. "What we should not forget about relationship between our nation and your nation is a fact that there was a certain period in the thousands of years of our company when we were the victimizer and you were the victim. I would like to once again express a heartfelt remorse and apology for the unbearable suffering and sorrow that you experienced during this period because of our nation's act." Recently the issue of the so-called 'wartime comfort women' is being brought up. I think that incidents like this are seriously heartbreaking, and I am truly sorry".[16]
> July 6, 1992. Chief Cabinet Secretary Koichi Kato said: "The Government again would like to express its sincere apology and remorse to all those who have suffered indescribable hardship as so-called 'wartime comfort women,' irrespective of their nationality or place of birth. With profound remorse and determination that such a mistake must never be repeated, Japan will maintain its stance as a pacifist nation and will endeavor to build up new future-oriented relations with the Republic of Korea and with other countries and regions in Asia. As I listen to many people, I feel truly grieved for this issue. By listening to the opinions of people from various directions, I would like to consider sincerely in what way we can express our feelings to those who suffered such hardship" (Statement by Chief Cabinet Secretary Koichi Kato on the Issue of the so-called "Wartime Comfort Women" from the Korean Peninsula).[17]
> August 4, 1993: Chief Cabinet Secretary Yōhei Kōno said: "Undeniably, this was an act, with the involvement of the military authorities of the day, that severely injured the honor and dignity of many women. The Government of Japan would like to take this opportunity once again to extend its sincere apologies and remorse to all those, irrespective of place of origin, who suffered immeasurable pain and incurable physical and psychological wounds as comfort women" (Statement by the Chief Cabinet Secretary Yohei Kono on the result of the study on the issue of "comfort women"),[18]
> August 11, 1993: Prime Minister Morihiro Hosokawa, at the first press conference after his inauguration, said: "I myself believe it was a war of aggression, a war that was wrong".[19]
> August 23, 1993: Prime Minister Morihiro Hosokawa said in a speech at the 127th National Diet Session: "After 48 years from then, our nation has become one of nations that enjoy prosperity and peace. We must not forget that it is founded on the ultimate sacrifices in the last war, and a product of the achievements of the people of the previous generations. We would like to take this opportunity to clearly express our remorse for the past and a new determination to the world. Firstly at this occasion, we would like to express our deep remorse and apology for the fact that invasion and colonial rule by our nation in the past brought to bear great sufferings and sorrow upon many people" .[20]
> September 24, 1993: Prime Minister Morihiro Hosokawa said, at the 128th National Diet Session:. "I used the expression war of aggression and act of aggression to express honestly my recognition which is the same as the one that the act of our nation in the past brought to bear unbearable sufferings and sorrow upon many people, and to express once again deep remorse and apology".[21]
> August 31, 1994: Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama said in a speech: "Japan's actions in a certain period of the past not only claimed numerous victims here in Japan but also left the peoples of neighboring Asia and elsewhere with scars that are painful even today. I am thus taking this opportunity to state my belief, based on my profound remorse for these acts of aggression, colonial rule, and the like caused such unbearable suffering and sorrow for so many people, that Japan's future path should be one of making every effort to build world peace in line with my no-war commitment. It is imperative for us Japanese to look squarely to our history with the peoples of neighboring Asia and elsewhere. Only with solid basis of mutual understanding and confidence that can be built through overcoming the pain on both sides, can we and the peoples of neighboring countries together clear up the future of Asia-Pacific.... On the issue of wartime 'comfort women,' which seriously stained the honor and dignity of many women, I would like to take this opportunity once again to express my profound and sincere remorse and apologies. With regard to this issue as well, I believe that one way of demonstrating such feelings of apologies and remorse is to work to further promote mutual understanding with the countries and areas concerned as well as to face squarely to the past and ensure that it is rightly conveyed to future generations. This initiative, in this sense, has been drawn up consistent with such belief" (Statement by Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama on the "Peace, Friendship, and Exchange Initiative").[22]
> June 9, 1995: House of Representatives, National Diet of Japan passed a resolution stating: "On the occasion of the 50th anniversary of the end of World War II, this House offers its sincere condolences to those who fell in action and victims of wars and similar actions all over the world. Solemnly reflecting upon many instances of colonial rule and acts of aggression in the modern history of the world, and recognizing that Japan carried out those acts in the past, inflicting pain and suffering upon the peoples of other countries, especially in Asia, the Members of this House express a sense of deep remorse" (Resolution to renew the determination for peace on the basis of lessons learned from history).[23]
> July 1995: Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama said in a statement: "The problem of the so-called wartime comfort women is one such scar, which, with the involvement of the Japanese military forces of the time, seriously stained the honor and dignity of many women. This is entirely inexcusable. I offer my profound apology to all those who, as wartime comfort women, suffered emotional and physical wounds that can never be closed" (Statement by Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama on the occasion of the establishment of the "Asian Women's Fund").[24]
> August 15, 1995: Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama said in a statement: "During a certain period in the not-too-distant past, Japan, through its colonial rule and aggression, caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries, particularly those of Asia. In the hope that no such mistake will be made in the future, I regard, in a spirit of humanity, these irrefutable facts of history, and express here once again my feelings of deep remorse and state my heartfelt apology" (Statement by Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama 'On the occasion of the 50th anniversary of the war's end').[25]
> June 23, 1996: Prime Minister Ryutaro Hashimoto said in a press conference: "Hashimoto mentioned the aspects of Japan's colonial rule of the Korean Peninsula such as the forced Japanization of Korean people's name and commented "It is beyond imagination how this injured the hearts of Korean people". Hashimoto also touched on the issue of Korean comfort women and said "Nothing injured the honor and dignity of women more than this and I would like to extend words of deep remorse and the heartfelt apology" (Joint press conference at summit meeting with President Kim Young Sam in South Korea).[26]
> October 8, 1996: Emperor Akihito said in a speech at a dinner with the South Korean president, Kim Dae Jung: "There was a period when our nation brought to bear great sufferings upon the people of the Korean Peninsula." "The deep sorrow that I feel over this will never be forgotten".[27]
> January 13, 1998: Press Secretary published: "Statement by Prime Minister Ryutaro Hashimoto on World War II prisoners of war. Q: At the meeting last night with Prime Minister Blair, did Prime Minister Hashimoto really apologize for the prisoners of war. Spokesman Hashimoto: The important thing is that the Prime Minister of Japan expressed the feelings of deep remorse and stated heartfelt apologies to the people who suffered in World War II directly to the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. This was the second meeting between Prime Minister Hashimoto and Prime Minister Blair and we considered the meeting very important, especially this year. Making use of this opportunity, Prime Minister Hashimoto expressed his remorse and apology on behalf of the Government of Japan; this is very important. Prime Minister Blair fully understands the importance of the statement made by Prime Minister Hashimoto on this issue. His press opportunities after the talks objectively reflect what the two gentlemen talked about" (Press Conference by the Press Secretary).[28] In a follow-up interview, spokesman Tanaka for Prime Minister Hashimoto clarified that "Our sense of apology and our sense of remorse was addressed to all the countries which have gone through the experiences of the last world war."[29]
> July 15, 1998: Prime Minister Ryutaro Hashimoto, in a letter to the Netherlands Prime Minister Willem Kok: "The Government of Japan, painfully aware of its moral responsibility concerning the issue of so-called "wartime comfort women," has been sincerely addressing this issue in close cooperation with the Asian Women's Fund which implements the projects to express the national atonement on this issue. Recognizing that the issue of comfort women, with an involvement of the Japanese military authorities at that time, was a grave affront to the honor and dignity of large numbers of women, I would like to convey to Your Excellency my most sincere apologies and remorse to all the women who underwent immeasurable and painful experiences and suffered incurable physical and psychological wounds as comfort women.... By the Statement of Prime Minister in 1995, the Government of Japan renewed the feelings of deep remorse and the heartfelt apology for tremendous damage and suffering caused by Japan to the people of many countries including the Netherlands during a certain period in the past. My cabinet has not modified this position at all, and I myself laid a wreath to the Indisch Monument with these feelings on the occasion of my visit to the Netherlands in June last year" (The contents of the letter of the then Japanese Prime Minister Ryutaro Hashimoto sent to ).[30]
> October 8, 1998: Prime Minister Keizō Obuchi said in a declaration: "Looking back on the relations between Japan and the Republic of Korea during this century, Prime Minister Obuchi regarded in a spirit of humility the fact of history that Japan caused, during a certain period in the past, tremendous damage and suffering to the people of the Republic of Korea through its colonial rule, and expressed his deep remorse and heartfelt apology for this fact. President Kim accepted with sincerity this statement of Prime Minister Obuchi's recognition of history and expressed his appreciation for it. He also expressed his view that the present calls upon both countries to overcome their unfortunate history and to build a future-oriented relationship based on reconciliation as well as good-neighborly and friendly cooperation" (Japan-South Korea Joint Declaration A New Japan-South Korea Partnership towards the Twenty-first Century).[31]
> November 26, 1998: Prime Minister Keizō Obuchi said in a declaration: "Both sides believe that squarely facing the past and correctly understanding history are the important foundation for further developing relations between Japan and China. The Japanese side observes the 1972 Joint Communique of the Government of Japan and the Government of the People's Republic of China and the August 15, 1995, Statement by former Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama. The Japanese side is keenly conscious of the responsibility for the serious distress and damage that Japan caused to the Chinese people through its aggression against China during a certain period in the past and expressed deep remorse for this. The Chinese side hopes that the Japanese side will learn lessons from the history and adhere to the path of peace and development. Based on this, both sides will develop long-standing relations of friendship" (Japan-China Joint Declaration On Building a Partnership of Friendship and Cooperation for Peace and Development).[32]
> 2000s[edit]​
> August 10, 2000: Consul-General of Japan in Hong Kong Itaru Umezu said: "In fact, Japan has clearly and repeatedly expressed its sincere remorse and apologies, and has dealt sincerely with reparation issues. These apologies were irrefutably expressed, in particular in Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama's official statement in 1995, which was based on a cabinet decision and which has subsequently been upheld by successive prime ministers, including Prime Minister Yoshirō Mori. Mr. Murayama said that Japan 'through its colonial rule and aggression, caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries, particularly to those of Asian nations. In the hope that no such mistake be made in the future, I regard, in a spirit of humility, these irrefutable facts of history, and express here once again my feelings of deep remorse and state my heartfelt apology'" (Japan Has Faced Its Past. _Far Eastern Economic Review_, August 10, 2000).[33]
> August 30, 2000: Minister for Foreign Affairs Yōhei Kōno said in an address during his visit to the People's Republic of China: "I believe that Japan's perception of history was clearly set out in the Statement by Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama issued, following a Cabinet Decision, on the fiftieth anniversary of the end of World War II. As a member of the Cabinet, I participated in the drafting of that Statement. The spirit contained therein has been carried forth by successive administrations and is now the common view of the large number of Japanese people" (Address by Minister for Foreign Affairs Yōhei Kōno During His Visit to the People's Republic of China).[34]
> April 3, 2001: Chief Cabinet Secretary Yasuo Fukuda said: "Japan humbly accepts that for a period in the not too distant past, it caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries, particularly to those of Asian nations, through its colonial rule and aggression, and expresses its deep remorse and heartfelt apology for this. Such recognition has been succeeded by subsequent Cabinets and there is no change regarding this point in the present Cabinet" (Comments by the Chief Cabinet Secretary, Yasuo Fukuda on the history textbooks to be used in junior high schools from 2002).[35]
> September 8, 2001: Minister for Foreign Affairs Makiko Tanaka said in a speech: "We have never forgotten that Japan caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries during the last war. Many lost their precious lives and many were wounded. The war has left an incurable scar on many people, including former prisoners of war. Facing these facts of history in a spirit of humility, I reaffirm today our feelings of deep remorse and heartfelt apology expressed in the Prime Minister Murayama's statement of 1995" (Speech by Minister for Foreign Affairs Makiko Tanaka at the Ceremony in Commemoration of 50th anniversary of the Signing of the San Francisco Peace Treaty).[36]
> October 15, 2001: Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi said: "During the talks, President Kim highly appreciated the words of the Prime Minister Koizumi at Sodaemun Independence Park, in which he expressed remorse and apology for Japan's colonial domination" (Japanese prime minister visits South Korea).[37]
> 2001: Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi (Also signed by all the prime ministers since 1995, including Ryutaro Hashimoto, Keizō Obuchi, Yoshirō Mori) said in a letter: "As Prime Minister of Japan, I thus extend anew my most sincere apologies and remorse to all the women who underwent immeasurable and painful experiences and suffered incurable physical and psychological wounds as comfort women. We must not evade the weight of the past, nor should we evade our responsibilities for the future. I believe that our country, painfully aware of its moral responsibilities, with feelings of apology and remorse, should face up squarely to its past history and accurately convey it to future generations" (Letter from Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi to the former comfort women).[38]
> September 17, 2002: Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi said: "The Japanese side regards, in a spirit of humility, the facts of history that Japan caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of Korea through its colonial rule in the past, and expressed deep remorse and heartfelt apology" (Japan-DPRK Pyongyang Declaration).[39]
> August 15, 2003: Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi said: "During the war, Japan caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries, particularly to those of Asian nations. On behalf of the people of Japan, I hereby renew my feelings of profound remorse as I express my sincere mourning to the victims" (Address by Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi at the 58th Memorial Ceremony for the War Dead).[40]
> April 22, 2005: Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi said: "Japan squarely faces these facts of history in a spirit of humility. And with feelings of deep remorse and heartfelt apology always engraved in mind, Japan has resolutely maintained, consistently since the end of World War II, never turning into a military power but an economic power, its principle of resolving all matters by peaceful means, without recourse to use of force. Japan once again states its resolve to contribute to the peace and prosperity of the world in the future as well, prizing the relationship of trust it enjoys with the nations of the world." (Address by the Prime Minister of Japan at the Asia-African Summit 2005).[41]
> August 15, 2005: Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi said: "In the past, Japan, through its colonial rule and aggression, caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries, particularly to those of Asian nations. Sincerely facing these facts of history, I once again express my feelings of deep remorse and heartfelt apology, and also express the feelings of mourning for all victims, both at home and abroad, in the war. I am determined not to allow the lessons of that horrible war to erode, and to contribute to the peace and prosperity of the world without ever again waging a war."[42]
> March 1, 2007: Prime Minister Shinzō Abe stated in a newspaper article that there was no evidence that the Japanese government had kept sex slaves, even though the Japanese government had already admitted the use of brothels in 1993. On March 27, the Japanese parliament issued an official apology.[43] This was regarding the surviving comfort women who had demanded an apology from the Japanese government for being used as sex slaves.
> May 9, 2009: The Japanese government, through its ambassador in the U.S., apologized to former American prisoners of war who suffered in the Bataan Death March.[44]
> 2010s[edit]​
> February 11, 2010: Foreign Minister Katsuya Okada said: "I believe what happened 100 years ago deprived Koreans of their country and national pride. I can understand the feelings of the people who lost their country and had their pride wounded," Okada said during a joint news conference with South Korean Foreign Minister Yu Myung-hwan. (This was a statement marking the 100th anniversary of Japan's colonial annexation of Korea, and not in reference to Japan's war acts in particular.)[45]
> August 10, 2010: Prime Minister Naoto Kan expressed "deep regret over the suffering inflicted" during the Empire of Japan's colonial rule over Korea. Japan's Kyodo News also reported that Cabinet members endorsed the statement. In addition, Kan said that Japan will hand over precious cultural artifacts that South Korea has been demanding. Among them were records of an ancient Korean royal dynasty.[46]
> September 13, 2010: Foreign Minister Katsuya Okada apologized to a group of six former American soldiers who during World War II were held as prisoners of war by the Japanese, including 90-year-old Lester Tenney, a survivor of the Bataan Death March in 1942. The six and their families and the families of two deceased soldiers were invited to visit Japan at the expense of the Japanese government in a program that will see more American former prisoners of war and former prisoners of war from other countries visit Japan in the future.[47]
> December 7, 2010: Prime Minister Naoto Kan apologized for Korea's suffering under colonization as part of a statement marking the 100th anniversary of the annexation in 1910. "I express a renewed feeling of deep remorse and state my heartfelt apology for the tremendous damage and suffering caused by colonial rule," Kan said. Kan said Japan colonized Korea "against the will of the Korean people" who suffered great damage to their national pride and loss of culture and sovereignty as a result and added that he wants to take an honest look at his country's past with the courage and humility to address its history.[48]
> March 3, 2011: Foreign Minister Seiji Maehara apologized to a group of Australian POWs visiting Japan as guests of the Government of Japan for the ill-treatment they received while in Imperial Japanese captivity.[49]
> December 8, 2011: Parliamentary Vice Minister for Foreign Affairs Toshiyuki Kat apologized to Canada for their treatment of Canadian POW's after the Battle of Hong Kong.[50]
> November 13, 2013: Former Japanese Prime Minister Hatoyama Yukio offered personal apology for Japan's wartime crimes, especially the Nanking Massacre, "As a Japanese citizen, I feel that it's my duty to apologise for even just one Chinese civilian killed brutally by Japanese soldiers and that such action cannot be excused by saying that it occurred during war."[51]
> April 9, 2014: Japanese Ambassador to the Philippines Toshinao Urabe expressed "heartfelt apology" and "deep remorse" and vowed "never to wage war again" at the Day of Valor ceremony in Bataan.[52]
> April 29, 2015: Prime Minister Shinzō Abe, during the first speech of a Japanese prime minister at a Joint session of the United States Congress, stated "deep repentance" for Japan's actions during World War II.[53]
> December 28, 2015: Japanese Foreign Minister Fumio Kishida and South Korean Foreign Minister Yun Byung-se made an announcement at a joint press conference, which consisted of their respective statements on behalf of Japan and South Korea. Kishida stated, "The issue of comfort women, with an involvement of the Japanese military authorities at that time, was a grave affront to the honor and dignity of large numbers of women, and the Government of Japan is painfully aware of responsibilities from this perspective. As Prime Minister of Japan, Prime Minister Abe expresses anew his most sincere apologies and remorse to all the women who underwent immeasurable and painful experiences and suffered incurable physical and psychological wounds as comfort women." The statement went on to explain that "the Government of Japan will now take measures to heal psychological wounds of all former comfort women through its budget" and that it had been decided that the South Korean government would "establish a foundation for the purpose of providing support for the former comfort women". In return, Yun stated that his government "acknowledges the fact that the Government of Japan is concerned about the statue built in front of the Embassy of Japan in Seoul from the viewpoint of preventing any disturbance of the peace of the mission or impairment of its dignity, and will strive to solve this issue in an appropriate manner". Both stated that this agreement will "finally and irreversibly" resolve the contentious issue and that "on the premise that the Government of Japan will steadily implement the measures it announced", both countries "will refrain from accusing or criticizing each other regarding this issue in the international community, including at the United Nations".[54]
> 2020s[edit]​
> August 15, 2020: At a memorial ceremony to mark the 75th anniversary of the end of World War II and the war dead, Emperor Naruhito expressed "deep remorse" over Japan's wartime past and he stated “I earnestly hope that the ravages of war will never again be repeated”.[55]
> Comments clarifying past apologies[edit]​
> September 6, 1997: Prime Minister Ryutaro Hashimoto said: "In 1995, on the 50th anniversary of the end of World War II, the Government of Japan expressed its resolution through the statement by the Prime Minister, which states that during a certain period in the past, Japan's conduct caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries, including China, and the Prime Minister expressed his feeling of deep remorse and stated his heartfelt apology, while giving his word to make efforts for peace. I myself was one of the ministers who was involved in drafting this statement. I would like to repeat that this is the official position of the Government of Japan. During the summit meeting that I had during my visit to China, I have made this point very clear in a frank manner to the Chinese side. Premier Li Peng said that he concurs completely with my remarks" (Ministry of Foreign Affairs Press Conference on: Visit of Prime Minister Ryutaro Hashimoto to the People's Republic of China).[56]
> Letter from Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi to the former comfort women
> 
> 
> October 18, 2013: Prime Minister Shinzō Abe said: "Japan inflicted tremendous damage and suffering on people in many countries, especially in Asia. The Abe Cabinet will take the same stance as that of past Cabinets."[57]"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> List of war apology statements issued by Japan - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org


.


----------



## Mushroom

Polishprince said:


> America bombed the hell out of both Japanese and German cities full of women and children during WW2.



And Germany and Japan did the exact same thing.  In fact, many that Japan attacked were not even military targets at all, it was to instill terror in the population (mostly in China).  Of course both nations also used chemical weapons on civilians, and routinely slaughtered millions just for the hell of it.

At least Hiroshima and Nagasaki were legitimate military targets.


----------



## Mushroom

mudwhistle said:


> Carpet-bombing Japan would be a much more difficult premise



That was actually already being done.  Several of the conventional attacks prior to Hiroshima killed even more than that did.

However, because of distance that was much more risky than it was over Europe.  The changes of surviving a crash over Europe were much higher than if the same thing happened over the Pacific Ocean.


----------



## JoeB131

Weatherman2020 said:


> Other than having a number of friends who were there preparing for the invasion and talking with my best friends dad who was an Imperial Japanese Army officer preparing the defense of the homeland and a WW2 historian (European theater more for disclosure) what am I missing?
> 
> Japan had zero intention of surrendering until the 2nd bomb.



How did any of those people know what the Japanese Government was trying to do? 









						The War Was Won Before Hiroshima—And the Generals Who Dropped the Bomb Knew It
					

Seventy years after the bombing, will Americans face the brutal truth?




					www.thenation.com
				




Indeed, it would have been surprising if they had: Despite the terrible concentrated power of atomic weapons, the firebombing of Tokyo earlier in 1945 and the destruction of numerous Japanese cities by conventional bombing killed far more people. The Navy Museum acknowledges what many historians have long known:* It was only with the entry of the Soviet Union’s Red Army into the war two days after the bombing of Hiroshima that the Japanese moved to finally surrender. *Japan was used to losing cities to American bombing; what their military leaders feared more was the destruction of the country’s military by an all-out Red Army assault.

The record is quite clear: From the perspective of an overwhelming number of key contemporary leaders in the US military, the dropping of atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was not a matter of military necessity. American intelligence had broken the Japanese codes, knew the Japanese government was trying to negotiate surrender through Moscow, and had long advised that the expected early August Russian declaration of war, along with assurances that Japan’s emperor would be allowed to stay as a figurehead, would bring surrender long before the first step in a November US invasion could begin.


----------



## Weatherman2020

JoeB131 said:


> How did any of those people know what the Japanese Government was trying to do?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The War Was Won Before Hiroshima—And the Generals Who Dropped the Bomb Knew It
> 
> 
> Seventy years after the bombing, will Americans face the brutal truth?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thenation.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, it would have been surprising if they had: Despite the terrible concentrated power of atomic weapons, the firebombing of Tokyo earlier in 1945 and the destruction of numerous Japanese cities by conventional bombing killed far more people. The Navy Museum acknowledges what many historians have long known:* It was only with the entry of the Soviet Union’s Red Army into the war two days after the bombing of Hiroshima that the Japanese moved to finally surrender. *Japan was used to losing cities to American bombing; what their military leaders feared more was the destruction of the country’s military by an all-out Red Army assault.
> 
> The record is quite clear: From the perspective of an overwhelming number of key contemporary leaders in the US military, the dropping of atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was not a matter of military necessity. American intelligence had broken the Japanese codes, knew the Japanese government was trying to negotiate surrender through Moscow, and had long advised that the expected early August Russian declaration of war, along with assurances that Japan’s emperor would be allowed to stay as a figurehead, would bring surrender long before the first step in a November US invasion could begin.


The Soviet land grab?  Soviets had a tiny force in the East and took an undefended island. Soviets were all in the West, a months journey away.


----------



## Weatherman2020

Unkotare said:


> .


US spent much of our money rebuilding Japan after the war. How much has Japan spent rebuilding China, Philippines, Indonesia, Korea, etc?


----------



## gipper

Mushroom said:


> That was actually already being done.  Several of the conventional attacks prior to Hiroshima killed even more than that did.
> 
> However, because of distance that was much more risky than it was over Europe.  The changes of surviving a crash over Europe were much higher than if the same thing happened over the Pacific Ocean.


Pay attention to your superior officers, grunt.  Or court martial for you and life at Leavenworth.

Listen to what these idiots had to say. lol

*“The use of this barbarous weapon…was of no material assistance in our war against Japan.” —Adm. William Leahy, Truman's Chief of Staff

“It was a mistake.... [the scientists] had this toy and they wanted to try it out, so they dropped it.” —Adm. William “Bull” Halsey

“the Japanese position was hopeless even before the first atomic bomb fell, because the Japanese had lost control of their own air.” -US Army Air Forces, General Henry “Hap” Arnold

“It wasn’t necessary to hit them with that awful thing.” Ike…ever heard of him?

“the atomic bomb had nothing to do with the end of the war at all.” -Maj. Gen. Curtis LeMay*


----------



## Weatherman2020

gipper said:


> Pay attention to your superior officers, grunt.  Or court martial for you and life at Leavenworth.
> 
> Listen to what these idiots had to say. lol
> 
> *“The use of this barbarous weapon…was of no material assistance in our war against Japan.” —Adm. William Leahy, Truman's Chief of Staff
> 
> “It was a mistake.... [the scientists] had this toy and they wanted to try it out, so they dropped it.” —Adm. William “Bull” Halsey
> 
> “the Japanese position was hopeless even before the first atomic bomb fell, because the Japanese had lost control of their own air.” -US Army Air Forces, General Henry “Hap” Arnold
> 
> “It wasn’t necessary to hit them with that awful thing.” Ike…ever heard of him?
> 
> “the atomic bomb had nothing to do with the end of the war at all.” -Maj. Gen. Curtis LeMay*


Yea, I too prefer firebombing people.


----------



## gipper

Weatherman2020 said:


> Yea, I too prefer firebombing people.
> View attachment 679244


I‘m certain you do and the more babies burned up, the happier you are.


----------



## Weatherman2020

gipper said:


> I‘m certain you do and the more babies burned up, the happier you are.


Moral of the story:
Don’t f*k with Americans.


----------



## gipper

Weatherman2020 said:


> Moral of the story:
> Don’t f*k with Americans.


Yeah because they have no problem committing war crimes and telling their dumb citizens (like you) it was necessary.


----------



## Weatherman2020

gipper said:


> Yeah because they have no problem committing war crimes and telling their dumb citizens (like you) it was necessary.


Did Japan surrender before or after we nuked them?


----------



## Unkotare

Weatherman2020 said:


> US spent much of our money rebuilding Japan after the war. How much has Japan spent rebuilding China, Philippines, Indonesia, Korea, etc?


Billions.


----------



## BackAgain

gipper said:


> Proving again you know nothing. The Japanese people were starving by 1945. Most of their young fighting age men were dead or overseas. They had no air or naval capabilities.
> 
> The people had no arms in which to fight, unless you fear pitchforks. You are a pussy so you likely think pitchforks would stop the world’s greatest military.


Ironically, every single one of your posts established conclusively that it is you who doesn’t know what he is talking about.


----------



## BackAgain

gipper said:


> Yeah because they have no problem committing war crimes and telling their dumb citizens (like you) it was necessary.


Gimp unilaterally declares the use of the atomic weapons in Japan to be war crimes. 

No. It wasn’t. It was horrendous. But fighting wars is always a barbarous business. And attacking civilian populations has long been a practice of war. 

Sure would be nice if we could find a way to fight wars in a civilized way.  Of course, it would probably be even nicer if we could handle international conflicts without war at all.


----------



## gipper

BackAgain said:


> Gimp unilaterally declares the use of the atomic weapons in Japan to be war crimes.
> 
> No. It wasn’t. It was horrendous. But fighting wars is always a barbarous business. And attacking civilian populations has long been a practice of war.
> 
> Sure would be nice if we could find a way to fight wars in a civilized way.  Of course, it would probably be even nicer if we could handle international conflicts without war at all.


Speaking of dumb.


----------



## RetiredGySgt

gipper said:


> Speaking of dumb.


we all agree YOU are dumb as a post.


----------



## BackAgain

gipper said:


> Speaking of dumb.


I was speaking of dumb;  and then (as if by magic) you show up right on cue.


----------



## mudwhistle

Jarlaxle said:


> That is bullshit. *Even after two atomic bombs, surrendering damn near got Hirohito assassinated!*
> 
> 
> 
> Bullshit. B-29s carrying incendiaries had nearly leveled most cities in Japan.


Bullshit. You couldn't fly masses of B-29s to Japan that long distance and not have to worry about them being shot down when they were halfway there. 
You need to take into account the distance. A flight from England to Germany is 400 miles...and England had established airfields....whereas the flight from Tinian is 1500 miles and limited landing capabilities.


----------



## Jarlaxle

Iwo Jima to Tokyo is 750 miles. Okinawa is about 400 miles to Tokyo.

Are you totally unfamiliar with the B-29 raids on Japan, then?


----------



## mudwhistle

Jarlaxle said:


> Iwo Jima to Tokyo is 750 miles. Okinawa is about 400 miles to Tokyo.
> 
> Are you totally unfamiliar with the B-29 raids on Japan, then?


The reason we took Iwo Jima was because of the fact that they were shooting down our B-29s with the Japanese fighters based there. Iwo Jima was deemed essential to winning the war.
After we took Iwo Jima...damaged B-29s had to land there because they couldn't make it all the way back to their bases. There was still a battle going on Iwo Jima when the first bombers landed. The flight was still twice as far as the flight from England to Germany. To fly the long distances required they had to fly lower and expose themselves to more anti-aircraft fire on the way to their targets.

The Japanese shot up those B-29s and it got to the point that they were losing too many aircrews.


----------



## JoeB131

Weatherman2020 said:


> The Soviet land grab? Soviets had a tiny force in the East and took an undefended island. Soviets were all in the West, a months journey away.



What are you talking about?  IN the week the USSR was in the war, they overran Manchuria (Manchukuo), capturing Puppet Emperor Puyi before he could even flee to Japan.  




Weatherman2020 said:


> US spent much of our money rebuilding Japan after the war. How much has Japan spent rebuilding China, Philippines, Indonesia, Korea, etc?



Quite a lot...


----------



## Unkotare

Unkotare said:


> Using it deliberately on unarmed civilians? Is that what you consider an American value?


Never did get an answer on this.


----------



## Mushroom

gipper said:


> “It wasn’t necessary to hit them with that awful thing.” Ike…ever heard of him?



Oh wow, that really means so damned much.

Especially as the Nuclear Stockpile of the US expanded more during the 8 years he was in office than at any time before or since.

True fact.  When Ike entered office, we had less than 400 nukes.  When he left office, the US had over 18,000 of them.

Oh yes, anything he has to say is so damned important!  I mean, he only increased the stockpile my many hundreds of times, more than any other President ever.

Yes, thank you for that completely worthless quote.


----------



## Mushroom

Unkotare said:


> Never did get an answer on this.



Because Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not civilian targets.

Hiroshima was the main Logistics Base for the invasion, it was the Command Center for the Second General Army as well as massive supply and ordinance dumps.

In fact, during the bombing over 20,000 Japanese soldiers were killed.  Including 5 Army Divisions and several major headquarters units that were wiped out in the blast.

Nagasaki was one of the main shipyards of Imperial Japan, and home base to most of their submarine fleet.  That is where most of their subs were built, in addition to other major ships like the IJN Mushashi and the aircraft carrier IFN Kaiyo (one of the few Japanese carriers to survive the war).






12 Type D subs in various stages of completion, Nagasaki Shipyard, September 1945.






Completed Type D submarines, Nagasaki Shipyard, October 1945.






Over 60 completed 2 man suicide submarines, Nagasaki Shipyard, August 1945

Now how can those be anything but "military targets"?


----------



## Mushroom

mudwhistle said:


> Bullshit. You couldn't fly masses of B-29s to Japan that long distance and not have to worry about them being shot down when they were halfway there.



And not even counting that.

The main reason that Iwo Jima was needed was as an emergency landing strip for bombers going to Japan.

And until the end of the war, over 2,400 B-29s made emergency landing on that island.  Not because of combat damage, but simple mechanical failure or adverse winds causing them to run critically low on fuel.

The first bombers were actually making landings before the runway was complete, and Japanese snipers were still shooting the construction workers.


----------



## Mushroom

Mushroom said:


> True fact. When Ike entered office, we had less than 400 nukes. When he left office, the US had over 18,000 of them.



Unk, I see you gave that a thumbs down.

Why?  Because you do not like the facts, or was what I said in error?


----------



## mudwhistle

Mushroom said:


> And not even counting that.
> 
> The main reason that Iwo Jima was needed was as an emergency landing strip for bombers going to Japan.
> 
> And until the end of the war, over 2,400 B-29s made emergency landing on that island.  Not because of combat damage, but simple mechanical failure or adverse winds causing them to run critically low on fuel.
> 
> The first bombers were actually making landings before the runway was complete, and Japanese snipers were still shooting the construction workers.


I read today that they were having tons of engine problems till after the war was over on the B-29s.
Once they ironed out the kinks and switch over to new engines they were extremely reliable. 

"The most common cause of maintenance headaches and catastrophic failures was the engines.[24] Although the Wright R-3350 Duplex-Cyclone radial engines later became a trustworthy workhorse in large piston-engined aircraft, early models were beset with dangerous reliability problems. This problem was not fully cured until the aircraft was fitted with the more powerful Pratt & Whitney R-4360 "Wasp Major" in the B-29D/B-50 program, which arrived too late for World War II. Interim measures included cuffs placed on propeller blades to divert a greater flow of cooling air into the intakes, which had baffles installed to direct a stream of air onto the exhaust valves. Oil flow to the valves was also increased, asbestos baffles were installed around rubber push rod fittings to prevent oil loss, thorough pre-flight inspections were made to detect unseated valves, and mechanics frequently replaced the uppermost five cylinders (every 25 hours of engine time) and the entire engines (every 75 hours).[N 1][24][27]

Pilots, including the present-day pilots of the Commemorative Air Force's _Fifi_, one of the last two remaining flying B-29s, describe flight after takeoff as being an urgent struggle for airspeed (generally, flight after takeoff should consist of striving for altitude). Radial engines need airflow to keep them cool, and failure to get up to speed as soon as possible could result in an engine failure and risk of fire. One useful technique was to check the magnetos while already on takeoff roll rather than during a conventional static engine-runup before takeoff.[27]




 

Interior photo of the rear pressurized cabin of the B-29 Superfortress, June 1944



 

B-29 Weapons Bay with General-Purpose AN-M64 TNT 500 LB bombs

In wartime, the B-29 was capable of flight at altitudes up to 31,850 feet (9,710 m),[28] at speeds of up to 350 mph (560 km/h; 300 kn) (true airspeed). This was its best defense because Japanese fighters could barely reach that altitude, and few could catch the B-29 even if they did attain that altitude."









						Boeing B-29 Superfortress - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Open Bolt

shockedcanadian said:


> Oh, I didn't know this day was celebrated.  Subsequently with the word "happy",


Of course it is.  Dropping the atomic bombs was a great triumph of good over evil.


----------



## Open Bolt

gipper said:


> A day that shall live in infamy.
> Shame.


Nonsense.




gipper said:


> Mass murder of defenseless women and children, is nothing short of the most heinous thing a nation can do.


The atomic bombs were dropped on military targets.




gipper said:


> No. He was terribly wrong. He is a war criminal who should have been hung.


Bombing military targets is not a war crime.  Hanging Mr. Truman would have been murder.




gipper said:


> Yeah nuking two cities full of defenseless innocent civilians is the same as bombing a military base that killed no civilians and a fraction on military personnel.


Both atomic bombs were dropped on military targets.




gipper said:


> Wrong. Japan had been trying to surrender for months.


That is incorrect.  Japan did not offer to surrender until after both atomic bombs had already been dropped.




gipper said:


> LOL. Why did we need to invade, conquer,and occupy?


Because Japan was refusing to surrender.




gipper said:


> No need at all, unless you are an imperialist. Iwo was a total waste. Entirely unnecessary, but it’s no use.


That is incorrect.  Japan was refusing to surrender.




gipper said:


> Japan’s air forces were nonexistent by mid 1944, other than a few kamikaze pilots.


That would be ten thousand kamikaze pilots.




gipper said:


> Our bombing crews often bombed the mainland entirely unmolested by Japanese fighters. They even went to daylight bombing, since there was no resistance.


Funny how Japan managed to chase the second atomic bomb away from Kokura Arsenal.




gipper said:


> It was also a war crime.


That is incorrect.  Attacks on military targets are not war crimes.




gipper said:


> Yeah you start a war and we Americans will happily mass murder your women and children.  CRAZY.


The atomic bombs were dropped on military targets.




gipper said:


> That’s right, but that in no way excuses Truman for mass murdering defenseless women and children.


Attacks on military targets are not murder.




gipper said:


> It was a war crime then and since.


No it wasn't.




gipper said:


> Numerous officials in the government and military said the A bombings were unnecessary, somehow that never got into the public school textbooks.


That's because historians understand that Japan was still refusing to surrender.


----------



## Open Bolt

Unkotare said:


> It’s not.


Oh yes it is.  I am quite happy to celebrate these holidays.




Unkotare said:


> You can see the true character of anyone who would celebrate the incineration of hundreds of thousands of civilians.


They shouldn't have been hanging around military targets.




Unkotare said:


> On the contrary, had fdr not ignored overtures for surrender long before, many thousands of American servicemen might not have been killed.


Japan did not offer to surrender until after both atomic bombs had already been dropped.




Unkotare said:


> That's right, but the son of a bitch was alive during the Yalta Conference. Just prior to that meeting, he received a 40-page report from MacArthur informing him of overtures to surrender on behalf of Japan that MacArthur had learned of. The scumbag fdr dismissed the very notion as not serving his political ends (and potentially robbing him of a chance to try out his new toy by killing hundreds of thousands of civilians in a manner opposed by many of the leading US military leaders of the day).


Fake news.  Never happened.




Unkotare said:


> Mountains of evidence of said overtures have been provided over and over again on many threads here.


Fake news.  Never happened.

Japan's first surrender offer came after both atomic bombs had already been dropped.




Unkotare said:


> That was not the only other option.


Had Japan continued to refuse to surrender, we would have invaded.


----------



## Open Bolt

gipper said:


> That was Truman’s big lie that he used after he committed his war crime, in an effort to justify it.


Attacks on military targets are not a war crime.

Projected casualty figures from an invasion are not lies.




gipper said:


> Thus, the rationale for the atomic bombings has come to rest on a single colossal fabrication, which has gained surprising currency — that they were necessary in order to save a half-million or more American lives. These, supposedly, are the lives that would have been lost in the planned invasion of Kyushu in December, then in the all-out invasion of Honshu the next year, if that had been needed. But the worst-case scenario for a full-scale invasion of the Japanese home islands was forty-six thousand American lives lost.7


Wrong.  The worst case figures were a million Americans dead and millions more maimed and gravely wounded.




gipper said:


> The ridiculously inflated figure of a half-million for the potential death toll — nearly twice the total of US dead in all theaters in the Second World War — is now routinely repeated in high-school and college textbooks and bandied about by ignorant commentators.


Not inflated, and not ignorant.  The invasion of Japan would have been a bloodbath.




gipper said:


> Unsurprisingly the prize for sheer fatuousness on this score goes to President George H.W. Bush, who claimed in 1991 that dropping the bomb "spared millions of American lives."8


He was likely counting the maimed and gravely wounded.




gipper said:


> "The rationale for the atomic bombings has come to rest on a single colossal fabrication — that they were necessary in order to save a half-million or more American lives."


Not at all.  They were necessary because Japan was still refusing to surrender.

But it is certainly true that an invasion would have been a bloodbath.




gipper said:


> Still, Truman's multiple deceptions and self-deceptions are understandable, considering the horror he unleashed. It is equally understandable that the US occupation authorities censored reports from the shattered cities and did not permit films and photographs of the thousands of corpses and the frightfully mutilated survivors to reach the public.9 Otherwise, Americans - and the rest of the world - might have drawn disturbing comparisons to scenes then coming to light from the Nazi concentration camps.


Nonsense.


----------



## Open Bolt

gipper said:


> Best not to face the truth of the terrible immorality of mass murdering civilians.


Wartime strikes on military targets are not murder in any way.




gipper said:


> America’s deliberate targeting of civilians, and its post-facto justifications, are clearly not unique, either in World War II, or in the wars before or since.


America has never deliberately targeted civilians in the past 100 years.  We may have done so in our wars against the Native Americans however.




gipper said:


> First, where have I ever stated anything excusing Japan’s war crimes.


I recall you once laughing at a post of mine that described horrendous Japanese atrocities.




gipper said:


> Secondly and more importantly, you fail to comprehend the difference between the magnitude of the US government’s mass murdering of hundreds of thousands of civilians, versus what Japan did.


Wartime strikes against military targets are not murder.




gipper said:


> Mass murdering civilians of a defenseless nation wanting to surrender, is immoral and unjust.


Wartime strikes against military targets are not murder.

Japan was anything but defenseless.

Japan was refusing to surrender.




gipper said:


> Japan was defenseless.


Japan had millions of soldiers and ten thousand kamikazes waiting to pounce on our invading forces.




gipper said:


> They had requested surrender terms numerous times prior


Japan refused to surrender until after both atomic bombs had already been dropped.




gipper said:


> to Truman’s war crime.


Bombing military targets is not a war crime.




gipper said:


> THEY WERE NO LONGER A THREAT TO THE USA.


Millions of Japanese soldiers and ten thousand kamikazes was a pretty substantial threat to our invasion.




gipper said:


> Yeah the mass murder of hundreds of thousands of defenseless civilians, is really nothing to get upset about.


Wartime strikes against military targets are not murder.




gipper said:


>


Terrorists target civilians.  The atomic bombs were dropped on military targets.




gipper said:


> You are disgusted by the atrocities committed by the Japanese Imperial Army (rightly so), but somehow find the mass murder of hundreds of thousands of defenseless Japanese civilians by US bombing, to be entirely acceptable.
> Do you fail to see the hypocrisy?


No hypocrisy.  Wartime strikes against military targets are not murder.


----------



## Open Bolt

mikegriffith1 said:


> The nuking of Hiroshima is one of the biggest and most shameful stains on our history.


Nonsense.  It was a great triumph of good over evil.




mikegriffith1 said:


> We did not need to nuke Hiroshima.


Sure we did.  Japan was still refusing to surrender.




mikegriffith1 said:


> Truman knew at least two weeks before he ordered the atomic bomb dropped on the city that the Japanese wanted to surrender and that their only real condition was that the emperor not be deposed.


Wrong.  Japan did not contemplate surrender until after both atomic bombs had already been dropped.

And when they did finally contemplate surrender, their condition was that Hirohito retain unlimited dictatorial power.




mikegriffith1 said:


> You might wanna read my article.


I read the first few sentences.  Your articles are filled with lies.




mikegriffith1 said:


> * FDR, desperate to save Stalin's Soviet Union from collapse, imposed increasingly harsh sanctions on staunchly anti-communist Japan and rejected every Japanese peace offer. Japan only decided to attack Pearl Harbor when it became clear that FDR was not going to accept any of the enormous concessions that Japan was offering in an effort to get the sanctions lifted. Instead of making Japan an ally, FDR provoked them to war. Japan was prepared to invade the Soviet Union, but FDR made sure that didn't happen.


Gosh.  It sure was mean of us to not help Japan commit genocide against their neighbors.




mikegriffith1 said:


> Cherry-picking and exaggeration don't refute facts. FDR definitely pushed the Japanese into war because he was desperate to save Stalin's Russia. He turned down very reasonable, if not extraordinary, Japanese peace offers, and refused to even meet with Prince Konoye (Konoe) to discuss the situation.


Perhaps he didn't think that support for genocide was nearly as reasonable as you find it.


----------



## Open Bolt

gipper said:


> Yes. Just about everyone around Truman who knew about the bomb, told him not to do it. However, he ignored them and chose to accept advice of his long time friend James Byrnes, his future Secretary of State.


Fake news.  Never happened.

Not one person ever advised Mr. Truman against using the atomic bombs.




gipper said:


> Truman knew the Japanese wanted to surrender in May.


That is incorrect.  Mr. Truman was not in the habit of "knowing" falsehoods.

Japan was only willing to contemplate surrender after both atomic bombs had already been dropped.




gipper said:


> All the Japanese asked for was we leave the Emperor alone, which Dirty Harry did


Japan's request, which came only after both atomic bombs had already been dropped, was that Hirohito retain unlimited dictatorial power as Japan's living deity.

Mr. Truman rightfully refused, and told Japan that Hirohito would be subordinate to MacArthur.




gipper said:


> AFTER he mass murdered hundreds of thousands of civilians.


Wartime attacks on military targets aren't murder.


----------



## Open Bolt

gipper said:


> Accepting the truth doesn’t make you a traitor or unpatriotic. It doesn’t minimize the tremendous sacrifices made by the American fighting man.
> It does expose the war crimes committed by Truman, and the propaganda promoted by the criminals in the ruling class.


Wartime strikes against military targets are not war crimes.




gipper said:


> *Five myths about the atomic bomb*
> _1. The bomb ended the war._
> _2. The bomb saved half a million American lives._
> _3. The only alternative to the bomb was an invasion of Japan._
> _4. The Japanese were warned before the bomb was dropped._
> _5. The bomb was timed to gain a diplomatic advantage over Russia and proved a “master card” in early Cold War politics._


4 is incorrect.  Japan was warned.

1, 2, & 3 are misleading.  Had Japan continued to refuse to surrender, there would have been an invasion and it would have been a bloodbath.




gipper said:


> Why invade?  Are you an imperialist?


Because Japan was refusing to surrender.




gipper said:


> No need to invade, unless you are an imperialist.


There was very much a need.  Japan was still refusing to surrender.


----------



## Open Bolt

there4eyeM said:


> The anniversary of these atrocities is hardly a 'happy' day.


Wartime strikes against military targets are in no way atrocities.

And yes, these are happy occasions.  Japan's victims rest easier whenever the atomic bombings are celebrated.


----------



## Open Bolt

rightwinger said:


> We had the bomb


And having it, it was time for us to use it.




rightwinger said:


> We were going to win anyway. Was is necessary to kill 100,000 civilians in Hiroshima and then kill 70,000 in Nagasaki a few days later?


Yes.  Quite necessary.  Japan was still refusing to surrender.


----------



## Unkotare

Mushroom said:


> Because Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not civilian targets.
> 
> .....


Complete lie.


----------



## Mushroom

Weatherman2020 said:


> US spent much of our money rebuilding Japan after the war. How much has Japan spent rebuilding China, Philippines, Indonesia, Korea, etc?



Over $1.2 billion dollars.  That is over $20 billion in today's money.

Mostly to the Philippines, Indonesia, Burma, and Vietnam.

What, you did not actually know that Japan actually did pay reparations?

Actually, China bowed out of any reoperations after the war ended.  But in recent years they have been seeking them.

Korea was not eligible for them because at the time they were actually a part of Japan.  However, they did actually pay them over $9.5 billion dollars in "Economic Aid" to South Korea after the war.  It was not technically "reoperations", but it served the same purpose.


----------



## Mushroom

Unkotare said:


> Complete lie.



Oh really?

So you are saying that Hiroshima was not the home to over 30,000 Japanese soldiers, and was not the command of the defense of all of Southern Japan?

So you are saying that Nagasaki was not one of their largest shipyards, and the home base for most of their submarines?  And until the day of the bomb they were not still frantically trying to finish as many submarines as possible?

So what, those are lies?  What exactly of what I just said is a lie?  Because each of those photographs I showed were of completed submarines at Nagasaki, and many more still under construction.

And those photographs were taken from August to October 1945, after the war ended.


----------



## JoeB131

Unkotare said:


> Never did get an answer on this.



Okay, here's one. 

There are no "Civilians" in total war.  If you are working in a factory or providing war material, you are a legitimate target. 

The problem you and other hand-wringers make is that you look at Hiroshima in isolation, and not as the last act in a war where ALL sides did horrible things, and 70 million people died.  

At the end of the day, the Japanese people themselves tolerated their leaders taking them into a war, and keeping that war going even when it was clear they were losing.


----------



## Weatherman2020

Mushroom said:


> Over $1.2 billion dollars.  That is over $20 billion in today's money.
> 
> Mostly to the Philippines, Indonesia, Burma, and Vietnam.
> 
> What, you did not actually know that Japan actually did pay reparations?
> 
> Actually, China bowed out of any reoperations after the war ended.  But in recent years they have been seeking them.
> 
> Korea was not eligible for them because at the time they were actually a part of Japan.  However, they did actually pay them over $9.5 billion dollars in "Economic Aid" to South Korea after the war.  It was not technically "reoperations", but it served the same purpose.


BFD. America spent $13B after the war to a nation that attacked us. $20B from a nation that enslaved and tortured and murdered millions in 1/4 of the planet surface?
Pffftttt….


----------



## Unkotare

"At bottom, Stimson wanted to kill as many workers and their families possible. And he made no effort to ensure that the Interim Committee’s recommendation about dual targeting was followed. Ultimately, the crew of the Enola Gay was permitted to pick the aim point and chose the Aioi Bridge at the center of Hiroshima. More than 70,000 men, women and children were killed immediately. In a cruel irony, the munitions factories on the periphery of the city were left largely unscathed."









						Hiroshima and the Myths of Military Targets and Unconditional Surrender
					

Every year, in early August, new articles appear that debate whether the dropping of the atomic bombs in 1945 was justified. Earlier this month, the 75th anniversary of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki attacks, was no exception.




					www.lawfareblog.com


----------



## gipper

Unkotare said:


> "At bottom, Stimson wanted to kill as many workers and their families possible. And he made no effort to ensure that the Interim Committee’s recommendation about dual targeting was followed. Ultimately, the crew of the Enola Gay was permitted to pick the aim point and chose the Aioi Bridge at the center of Hiroshima. More than 70,000 men, women and children were killed immediately. In a cruel irony, the munitions factories on the periphery of the city were left largely unscathed."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hiroshima and the Myths of Military Targets and Unconditional Surrender
> 
> 
> Every year, in early August, new articles appear that debate whether the dropping of the atomic bombs in 1945 was justified. Earlier this month, the 75th anniversary of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki attacks, was no exception.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.lawfareblog.com


The US eliminated Christianity in Japan with the bombing of Nagasaki. 


*The History of Nagasaki Christianity*

Nagasaki is famous in the history of Japanese Christianity. The city had the largest concentration of Christians in all of Japan. St. Mary’s Urakami Cathedral was the megachurch of its day, with 12,000 baptized members.

Nagasaki was the community where the legendary Jesuit missionary Francis Xavier planted a mission church in 1549. The Catholic community at Nagasaki grew and eventually prospered over the next few decades. However, it gradually became clear to the Japanese leadership that Portuguese and Spanish commercial interests (with their Catholic priests that were attempting to “Christianize” Japan) were exploiting Japan’s resources and its people. It didn’t take very long before all Europeans were expelled from the country – along with their strange religion. Japanese Christians who refused to recant of their faith suffered severe persecutions, which culminated on February 5, 1597 when Paul Miki and 25 other Christian martyrs were tortured and crucified simultaneously in Nagasaki.

The reign of terror stopped when it appeared to all observers that Japanese Christianity was dead, and from 1600 until 1850, being a Christian in Japan was punishable by death.

However, 250 years later, after the gunboat diplomacy of US Commodore Matthew Perry forced open an offshore island close to Nagasaki for American trade purposes, it was discovered that there were thousands of baptized Christians in the Nagasaki area, practicing their faith in secret. The Christian community was completely unknown to the government.

When the secret congregation was discovered, the government started another persecution but because of international pressure, the persecutions stopped and Nagasaki Christianity came up from the underground. And by 1917, with no financial help from the government, the re-vitalized Christian community built the massive cathedral in Nagasaki’s Urakami River district.

*Christians Killing Christians in the Name of Christ
The 77th Anniversary of the Bombing of Nagasaki - LewRockwell*


----------



## Weatherman2020

Unkotare said:


> "At bottom, Stimson wanted to kill as many workers and their families possible. And he made no effort to ensure that the Interim Committee’s recommendation about dual targeting was followed. Ultimately, the crew of the Enola Gay was permitted to pick the aim point and chose the Aioi Bridge at the center of Hiroshima. More than 70,000 men, women and children were killed immediately. In a cruel irony, the munitions factories on the periphery of the city were left largely unscathed."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hiroshima and the Myths of Military Targets and Unconditional Surrender
> 
> 
> Every year, in early August, new articles appear that debate whether the dropping of the atomic bombs in 1945 was justified. Earlier this month, the 75th anniversary of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki attacks, was no exception.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.lawfareblog.com


Firebombing was more fun.


----------



## gipper

Weatherman2020 said:


> Firebombing was more fun.


Trolling your own thread.

lol


----------



## Weatherman2020

gipper said:


> Trolling your own thread.
> 
> lol


It proves a point. You history ignoramuses don’t give a peep about the firebombings.


----------



## Weatherman2020

gipper said:


> The US eliminated Christianity in Japan with the bombing of Nagasaki.
> 
> 
> *The History of Nagasaki Christianity*
> 
> Nagasaki is famous in the history of Japanese Christianity. The city had the largest concentration of Christians in all of Japan. St. Mary’s Urakami Cathedral was the megachurch of its day, with 12,000 baptized members.
> 
> Nagasaki was the community where the legendary Jesuit missionary Francis Xavier planted a mission church in 1549. The Catholic community at Nagasaki grew and eventually prospered over the next few decades. However, it gradually became clear to the Japanese leadership that Portuguese and Spanish commercial interests (with their Catholic priests that were attempting to “Christianize” Japan) were exploiting Japan’s resources and its people. It didn’t take very long before all Europeans were expelled from the country – along with their strange religion. Japanese Christians who refused to recant of their faith suffered severe persecutions, which culminated on February 5, 1597 when Paul Miki and 25 other Christian martyrs were tortured and crucified simultaneously in Nagasaki.
> 
> The reign of terror stopped when it appeared to all observers that Japanese Christianity was dead, and from 1600 until 1850, being a Christian in Japan was punishable by death.
> 
> However, 250 years later, after the gunboat diplomacy of US Commodore Matthew Perry forced open an offshore island close to Nagasaki for American trade purposes, it was discovered that there were thousands of baptized Christians in the Nagasaki area, practicing their faith in secret. The Christian community was completely unknown to the government.
> 
> When the secret congregation was discovered, the government started another persecution but because of international pressure, the persecutions stopped and Nagasaki Christianity came up from the underground. And by 1917, with no financial help from the government, the re-vitalized Christian community built the massive cathedral in Nagasaki’s Urakami River district.
> 
> *Christians Killing Christians in the Name of Christ
> The 77th Anniversary of the Bombing of Nagasaki - LewRockwell*


Japanese government ordered children - male and female - to die for the Emperor.


----------



## Weatherman2020

And Happy Nagasaki Day!


----------



## Weatherman2020

gipper said:


> Trolling your own thread.
> 
> lol


Happy Nagasaki Day!
Why was Japan still at war with us on 8/9/45?


----------



## Mushroom

Weatherman2020 said:


> America spent $13B after the war to a nation that attacked us.



Yes, for many reasons.

Remember, we had learned a hell of a lot since WWI.  For example, the extreme poverty that Germany was left in and the economic destruction made it very easy for that nation to fall under the influence of extremist elements.  Specifically, the NSDAP.  By helping to return the country to prosperity, greatly reduced the chance of such happening there.

Also, unlike after WWI, the Allied Powers insisted that each of the former Axis powers be occupied for years to come.  And we had tens or hundreds of thousands of own personnel there involved in those occupation duties.  Now, should we have them stationed in a place that at least is recovering from the war, or in a hell of poor sanitation, no reliable power and water, and constant internal conflict, or a country on the mend and improving?

What, do you think we should not have helped them recover after the war, no matter what the cause was?  Do you think we should have punished them, and made the country suffer for years just because they started the war?


----------



## Mushroom

Unkotare said:


> Complete lie.



You know, I keep waiting for a response, but never seem to get one.

I see you calling me a liar, and downvoting a lot of the things said that are actually factual.

Now, are you doing so simply because you do not like them, or they are factually wrong?  Also, calling me a liar then not even discussing what you think the actual "truth" is of a situation does yourself no good at all.  That is simply a "cop out", most times used when somebody is losing an argument but has no real response to give.  So in short, they attack the individual and not the facts presented.

Now how about being an actual honest debater?  You more than most in here should know that I actually lived in Japan, and respect the Japanese culture and traditions.  But even as most in Japan do today, I recognize the excesses and cruelty of the early Showa era when the nation was largely run by the expansionist military.

If I am wrong factually, please correct me.  But do not attack me with a two word response, or downvote everything I or others say just because you do not like them.  I have seen better from you in other threads, but for some reason when it comes to this topic you are almost childlike in how childlike your react.


----------



## Open Bolt

Unkotare said:


> Complete lie.


Hiroshima was a huge military center with tens of thousands of Japanese soldiers.  It was also the headquarters in charge of repelling our invasion of Japan.

Nagasaki was a massive warship-building factory.




Unkotare said:


> "At bottom, Stimson wanted to kill as many workers and their families possible. And he made no effort to ensure that the Interim Committee’s recommendation about dual targeting was followed. Ultimately, the crew of the Enola Gay was permitted to pick the aim point and chose the Aioi Bridge at the center of Hiroshima. More than 70,000 men, women and children were killed immediately. In a cruel irony, the munitions factories on the periphery of the city were left largely unscathed."


Who cares about a minor munitions factory?  The destruction of the military headquarters and slaughter of twenty thousand Japanese soldiers was quite satisfactory.


----------



## Mushroom

Open Bolt said:


> Who cares about a minor munitions factory? The destruction of the military headquarters and slaughter of twenty thousand Japanese soldiers was quite satisfactory.



well as the military depots that those munitions were being sent to.  As well as all of the soldiers and other logistical support needed to move those munitions.

That is like complaining a tank factory was largely unscathed, as the railheads and location where the tanks were staged for final armaments prior to being sent into combat were destroyed.


----------



## Unkotare

Hiroshima and the Myths of Military Targets and Unconditional Surrender
					

Every year, in early August, new articles appear that debate whether the dropping of the atomic bombs in 1945 was justified. Earlier this month, the 75th anniversary of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki attacks, was no exception.




					www.lawfareblog.com


----------



## Unkotare

Total Casualties | The Atomic Bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki | Historical Documents | atomicarchive.com
					

The Atomic Bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki by The Manhattan Engineer District, June 29, 1946. Total Casualties. There has been great difficulty in estimating the total casualties in the Japanese cities as a result of the atomic bombing. The extensive destruction of civil installations...




					www.atomicarchive.com


----------



## Unkotare

77th Anniversary of Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombings: Revisiting the Record | National Security Archive
					

Washington, D.C., August 8, 2022 – After years of research and planning, U.S. officials and scientists overseeing the Manhattan Project were startlingly unprepared for the emergence of evidence of the long-term effects of radiation generated by the atomic bomb – even after the Trinity test in...




					nsarchive.gwu.edu


----------



## AZrailwhale

gipper said:


> Yeah and you think they could have beaten the US military. Lol.


The idea wasn't to defeat the Americans, but to sicken the American public by the massive losses on both sides.  They thought the US would then allow Japan to return to status quo ante with no consequences to the Japanese ruling class.


----------



## Mushroom

AZrailwhale said:


> They thought the US would then allow Japan to return to status quo ante with no consequences to the Japanese ruling class.



Which was exactly what they were trying to do.  Every single "peace offer" that Japan ever tried were all essentially returning to the way things were before 7 December 1941.

Offers so bad that not a single country was willing to present them to the Allied Powers.  Not even Switzerland, Sweden, or the Soviets were willing to present their offers.  Even the Japanese Ambassador to the Soviet Union thought that not a single proposal was remotely possible, and encouraged the leadership to get serious about ending the war before it was too late.

When your own ambassador tells you that your proposals are foolish, then a country really needs to reconsider what they are trying to do.


----------



## Open Bolt

Unkotare said:


> Hiroshima and the Myths of Military Targets and Unconditional Surrender
> 
> 
> Every year, in early August, new articles appear that debate whether the dropping of the atomic bombs in 1945 was justified. Earlier this month, the 75th anniversary of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki attacks, was no exception.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.lawfareblog.com


This article contains a number of blatant falsehoods.




Lawfare Liars said:


> The Hopkins claim was the most recent inflation of estimates building on what Rufus Miles called the “myth of half a million American lives saved.” Secretary of War Henry Stimson originally claimed in his famous 1947 Harper’s article that an invasion was expected to produce “over a million American casualties [wounded and killed] to American forces alone” (emphasis added). Winston Churchill, in his memoirs, claimed instead that the invasion would have produced one million American fatalities and an additional 500,000 thousand allied fatalities. But the serious historians studying this issue come to a different conclusion, finding that the range of estimates of U.S. deaths in the 1945 military records was significantly lower than the mythical half a million figure.


There were official estimates that invading Japan could result in a million American deaths, plus millions more Americans maimed and gravely wounded.

Claims that there were no such estimates, or that the estimates were exaggerations, are lies.




Lawfare Liars said:


> Although Hiroshima contained some military-related industrial facilities—an army headquarters and troop-loading docks—the vibrant city of over a quarter of a million men, women and children was hardly “a military base.” Indeed, less than 10 percent of the individuals killed on Aug. 6, 1945, were Japanese military personnel.


Another lie.  About 15% of the dead at Hiroshima were Japanese soldiers.

Describing the headquarters that was in charge of repelling our invasion as merely "an army headquarters" is also deliberately misleading.




Lawfare Liars said:


> As is true with all counterfactuals, we can’t know with certainty whether the Japanese government would have surrendered without the dropping of the bomb if this compromise had been offered when Stimson suggested. Among the many tragedies of Hiroshima, however, is that Truman refused to try this diplomatic maneuver earlier.


Truman had no ability to try it earlier, since Japan was not willing to try it before August 10.




Lawfare Liars said:


> The international law of armed conflict has evolved considerably since 1945, and an attack like that against Hiroshima would be illegal today. It would violate three requirements of the law of armed conflict codified in the 1977 Additional Protocol I to the Geneva Conventions: to not intentionally attack civilians (the principle of distinction); to ensure that incidental damage against civilians is not excessive compared to the direct military advantage gained from an attack against a lawful target (the principle of proportionality), especially where, as here, the value of the identified military targets in Hiroshima was modest; and to take all feasible precautions to minimize collateral damage against civilians (the precautionary principle).


All sorts of lies here.  The US didn't intentionally attack civilians.  The identified military targets in Hiroshima were highly significant and far from modest.

The implication that the US did not try to minimize collateral damage is also a lie.  Hiroshima and Nagasaki were warned with leaflets that they would soon be destroyed by the US Air Force.




Lawfare Liars said:


> Because it would have entailed the awful human costs of an invasion, Truman’s demand for Japan’s unconditional surrender to end the war was indefensible. Seeking to avoid the larger losses that would flow from an unjust demand for unconditional surrender cannot justify the Hiroshima attack.


Truman didn't demand unconditional surrender.  The Potsdam Proclamation was a list of surrender terms.

But had Truman actually demanded unconditional surrender, that would have been entirely defensible and perfectly legitimate.


----------



## AZrailwhale

Unkotare said:


> Complete lie.


Both cities were major naval bases. Both were producing weapons to be used against the invading Americans.  Unlike the Germans, the Japanese had distributed their war production in mom-and-pop factories located in civilian areas.  There was no way to bomb factories without killing civilians.  
Like the German cities, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were legitimate military targets by WWII standards.  All WWII combatants targeted civilians, the RAF and Luftwaffe didn't even pretend to be trying to hit factories, they were aiming at civilian housing.  The Japanese bombed Chinese and Philippine cities that weren't even defended and had been declared "open cities" meaning that they wouldn't be defended at any level.


----------



## Open Bolt

gipper said:


> You may know that, but it’s absolutely wrong.


Not really.  All those Americans did indeed live.




gipper said:


> Nothing but propaganda to cover for Truman’s heinous war crime.


Bombing military targets is not a war crime.




gipper said:


> He should have been hung like the Nazis at Nuremberg.


You sure do like murdering innocent people.




gipper said:


> Yeah. Kill those defenseless women and children based on a lie. Too stupid.


That Hiroshima and Nagasaki were military targets is no lie.




gipper said:


> Mass murdering defenseless women and children is ALWAYS a war crime.


Bombing military targets is neither murder nor a war crime.




gipper said:


> We know your strategy. Mass murdering defenseless civilians just like a fucking Nazi.


Military targets are not civilians, and bombing military targets is not murder.


----------



## Open Bolt

Unkotare said:


> Do you think MacArthur did the right thing when he encouraged fdr to investigate overtures to surrender prior to Yalta?


Fake news.  Never happened.




Unkotare said:


> Overtures to surrender had been floated via the Russians and through Swiss envoys, but the bloodthirsty fdr rejected the notion out of hand.


Fake news.  Never happened.




Unkotare said:


> Tell that to MacArthur. He wrote fdr a 47 page letter about it. fdr threw the letter in the garbage (much the same way he considered the Constitution and the lives of US servicemen).


Fake news.  Never happened.




Unkotare said:


> If fdr had any interest in peace, the war might have ended BEFORE Okinawa.


Fake News.  Never happened.




Unkotare said:


> MacArthur informed the bloodthirsty scumbag that overtures to surrender had been sent out prior to his leaving for Yalta.


Fake news.  Never happened.




Unkotare said:


> The bloodthirsty fdr rejected the notion out of hand, thus strengthening the position of the hardliners in the Japanese government and undermining those who were considering offering the same terms of surrender that we eventually accepted anyway AFTER incinerating hundreds of thousands of civilians, and AFTER the terrible loss of US servicemen at Iwo Jima, Okinawa and other battles that might need not ever happened.


Fake news.  Never happened.




Unkotare said:


> Quite a few of America's top military leaders of that time disagreed with you. Are you a general or an admiral?


Appeals to authority are logical fallacies.




Unkotare said:


> Gen. MacArthur disagrees with you. The terms that he informed fdr about turned out to be the very  same as the ones we eventually accepted anyway.


Fake news.  Never happened.




Unkotare said:


> So, the atomic bombs were dropped in revenge for medical experiments? Do you have a link to a document indicating that as the specific justification for specifically targeting and killing civilians?


No civilians were targeted.  The atomic bombs were dropped on military targets.




Unkotare said:


> Weatherman2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why would Japan surrender?
> 
> 
> 
> Because they could not win.
Click to expand...

Why did Japan refuse to surrender until after both atomic bombs had already been dropped?




Unkotare said:


> Imagine if there had never been a Battle of Okinawa.


It's a shame Japan didn't give us that option.




Unkotare said:


> You can't deny it, so you try to dismiss it.


Consider it denied.  Japan refused to surrender until after both atomic bombs had already been dropped.




Unkotare said:


> Kind of like what that SOB fdr did.


Fake news.  Never happened.




Unkotare said:


> Clipping from Chicago Tribune - Newspapers.com
> 
> 
> Clipping found in Chicago Tribune in Chicago, Illinois on Aug 14, 1965.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.newspapers.com


A perfect example of fake news.


----------



## Open Bolt

gipper said:


> We didn’t need to occupy Japan.


Yes we did.  Pearl Harbor and the Bataan Death March demanded it.




gipper said:


> You’re not getting this. There was no need to invade and occupy Japan.


Except, there was.  Pearl Harbor and Bataan demanded it.




gipper said:


> Accept their surrender and go home.


We weren't about to go home, but even if we would have been willing to do so, Japan was still refusing to surrender.




gipper said:


> Wrong as always. I’ve shown you this for years. The army must have removed your brain.
> All Japan asked is don’t touch the emperor. This your beloved Dirty Harry agreed to AFTER his massacre of thousands of women and babies.


No, you are the one who is wrong.  Japan's request was that Hirohito retain unlimited dictatorial power as Japan's living deity.  Truman refused and told them that Hirohito would be subordinate to MacArthur.

And, more importantly, Japan made this request only after both atomic bombs had already been dropped.


----------



## Open Bolt

rightwinger said:


> I have never seen a report of Japanese slaughtering civilians in 1945
> Do you have one?


Non-Japanese Asian civilians were dying at a rate of at least 100,000 a month under the tender mercies of Japanese occupation.




rightwinger said:


> But once we had the bomb and nobody else did……Invasion was no longer necessary


Invasion was necessary until Japan surrendered.  They did not surrender until after the second atomic bomb had been dropped.




rightwinger said:


> We gave them three days


That was way too long of a wait.  We should have recast the uranium from Little Boy into a bunch of composite implosion cores back in the early summer.

Then we should have nuked at least two targets every day, starting with Kyoto, then moving on to Hiroshima, then Kokura Arsenal, then Yokohama (which should have been saved for the atomic bombs), then Niigata, then the Nagasaki shipyards, then Yokosuka Arsenal.


----------



## Open Bolt

RetiredGySgt said:


> Reasonable? Again for the slow and amazingly STUPID, before the nukes ALL Japan offered was a ceasefire and return to 41 start lines.


That was Japan's position at the time, but note that Japan wasn't even presenting that offer to us.  All we heard from Japan was stony silence.


----------



## Weatherman2020

gipper said:


> You’re not getting this. There was no need to invade and occupy Japan. Accept their surrender and go home.


Aren’t you a Kiwi?


----------



## Dayton3

gipper said:


> A day that shall live in infamy.
> 
> Shame.
> 
> Mass murder of defenseless women and children, is nothing short of the most heinous thing a nation can do.


Every major bombing kills defenseless people.


----------



## Unkotare

Unkotare said:


> Hiroshima and the Myths of Military Targets and Unconditional Surrender
> 
> 
> Every year, in early August, new articles appear that debate whether the dropping of the atomic bombs in 1945 was justified. Earlier this month, the 75th anniversary of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki attacks, was no exception.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.lawfareblog.com


.


----------



## Unkotare

Unkotare said:


> Do you think MacArthur did the right thing when he encouraged fdr to investigate overtures to surrender prior to Yalta?


.


----------



## Unkotare

Unkotare said:


> Overtures to surrender had been floated via the Russians and through Swiss envoys, but the bloodthirsty fdr rejected the notion out of hand.


.


----------



## Unkotare

Unkotare said:


> Tell that to MacArthur. He wrote fdr a 47 page letter about it. fdr threw the letter in the garbage (much the same way he considered the Constitution and the lives of US servicemen).


.


----------



## Unkotare

Unkotare said:


> If fdr had any interest in peace, the war might have ended BEFORE Okinawa.


.


----------



## Unkotare

Unkotare said:


> MacArthur informed the bloodthirsty scumbag that overtures to surrender had been sent out prior to his leaving for Yalta.


.


----------



## Unkotare

Unkotare said:


> The bloodthirsty fdr rejected the notion out of hand, thus strengthening the position of the hardliners in the Japanese government and undermining those who were considering offering the same terms of surrender that we eventually accepted anyway AFTER incinerating hundreds of thousands of civilians, and AFTER the terrible loss of US servicemen at Iwo Jima, Okinawa and  other battles that might need not ever happened.


.


----------



## Unkotare

Unkotare said:


> Gen. MacArthur disagrees with you. The terms that he informed fdr about turned out to be the very  same as the ones we eventually accepted anyway.


.


----------



## Open Bolt

mikegriffith1 said:


> It is surprising to see some conservatives cheering Truman's needless, barbaric nuking of anti-communist Japan.


It is in the nature of conservatives to support the good guys.

Hardly needless.  Japan was refusing to surrender.




mikegriffith1 said:


> Japan did not "mess with America."


In that case, we didn't bomb Hiroshima and Nagasaki.




mikegriffith1 said:


> FDR refused Japan's reasonable peace offers


Most people do not agree with your position that support for genocide is reasonable.




mikegriffith1 said:


> and provoked Japan to attack Pearl Harbor so he could enter WW II and save his beloved Soviet Union.


Japan got their comeuppance when they provoked us into nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki.




mikegriffith1 said:


> There was absolutely no need to nuke Japan.


Yes there was.  Japan was still refusing to surrender.




mikegriffith1 said:


> Japan was prostrate, starving, and was virtually defenseless against air and naval attack.. Truman knew that most of Japan's leaders, including the emperor, wanted to end the war and were willing to surrender on very reasonable terms.


Truman knew that Japan was still refusing to surrender, and he didn't know what it would take to make them surrender.


----------



## Open Bolt

Unkotare said:


> Do you think MacArthur did the right thing when he encouraged fdr to investigate overtures to surrender prior to Yalta?





Unkotare said:


> Overtures to surrender had been floated via the Russians and through Swiss envoys, but the bloodthirsty fdr rejected the notion out of hand.





Unkotare said:


> Tell that to MacArthur. He wrote fdr a 47 page letter about it. fdr threw the letter in the garbage (much the same way he considered the Constitution and the lives of US servicemen).





Unkotare said:


> If fdr had any interest in peace, the war might have ended BEFORE Okinawa.





Unkotare said:


> MacArthur informed the bloodthirsty scumbag that overtures to surrender had been sent out prior to his leaving for Yalta.





Unkotare said:


> The bloodthirsty fdr rejected the notion out of hand, thus strengthening the position of the hardliners in the Japanese government and undermining those who were considering offering the same terms of surrender that we eventually accepted anyway AFTER incinerating hundreds of thousands of civilians, and AFTER the terrible loss of US servicemen at Iwo Jima, Okinawa and other battles that might need not ever happened.





Unkotare said:


> Gen. MacArthur disagrees with you. The terms that he informed fdr about turned out to be the very same as the ones we eventually accepted anyway.


Fake news.  Never happened.


----------



## Open Bolt

Unkotare said:


> Hiroshima and the Myths of Military Targets and Unconditional Surrender
> 
> 
> Every year, in early August, new articles appear that debate whether the dropping of the atomic bombs in 1945 was justified. Earlier this month, the 75th anniversary of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki attacks, was no exception.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.lawfareblog.com


This article _still_ contains a number of blatant falsehoods.  Repeating it didn't change anything.




Lawfare Liars said:


> The Hopkins claim was the most recent inflation of estimates building on what Rufus Miles called the “myth of half a million American lives saved.” Secretary of War Henry Stimson originally claimed in his famous 1947 Harper’s article that an invasion was expected to produce “over a million American casualties [wounded and killed] to American forces alone” (emphasis added). Winston Churchill, in his memoirs, claimed instead that the invasion would have produced one million American fatalities and an additional 500,000 thousand allied fatalities. But the serious historians studying this issue come to a different conclusion, finding that the range of estimates of U.S. deaths in the 1945 military records was significantly lower than the mythical half a million figure.


There were official estimates that invading Japan could result in a million American deaths, plus millions more Americans maimed and gravely wounded.

Claims that there were no such estimates, or that the estimates were exaggerations, are lies.




Lawfare Liars said:


> Although Hiroshima contained some military-related industrial facilities—an army headquarters and troop-loading docks—the vibrant city of over a quarter of a million men, women and children was hardly “a military base.” Indeed, less than 10 percent of the individuals killed on Aug. 6, 1945, were Japanese military personnel.


Another lie.  About 15% of the dead at Hiroshima were Japanese soldiers.

Describing the headquarters that was in charge of repelling our invasion as merely "an army headquarters" is also deliberately misleading.




Lawfare Liars said:


> As is true with all counterfactuals, we can’t know with certainty whether the Japanese government would have surrendered without the dropping of the bomb if this compromise had been offered when Stimson suggested. Among the many tragedies of Hiroshima, however, is that Truman refused to try this diplomatic maneuver earlier.


Truman had no ability to try it earlier, since Japan was not willing to try it before August 10.




Lawfare Liars said:


> The international law of armed conflict has evolved considerably since 1945, and an attack like that against Hiroshima would be illegal today. It would violate three requirements of the law of armed conflict codified in the 1977 Additional Protocol I to the Geneva Conventions: to not intentionally attack civilians (the principle of distinction); to ensure that incidental damage against civilians is not excessive compared to the direct military advantage gained from an attack against a lawful target (the principle of proportionality), especially where, as here, the value of the identified military targets in Hiroshima was modest; and to take all feasible precautions to minimize collateral damage against civilians (the precautionary principle).


All sorts of lies here.  The US didn't intentionally attack civilians.  The identified military targets in Hiroshima were highly significant and far from modest.

The implication that the US did not try to minimize collateral damage is also a lie.  Hiroshima and Nagasaki were warned with leaflets that they would soon be destroyed by the US Air Force.




Lawfare Liars said:


> Because it would have entailed the awful human costs of an invasion, Truman’s demand for Japan’s unconditional surrender to end the war was indefensible. Seeking to avoid the larger losses that would flow from an unjust demand for unconditional surrender cannot justify the Hiroshima attack.


Truman didn't demand unconditional surrender.  The Potsdam Proclamation was a list of surrender terms.

But had Truman actually demanded unconditional surrender, that would have been entirely defensible and perfectly legitimate.


----------



## rightwinger

Open Bolt said:


> Non-Japanese Asian civilians were dying at a rate of at least 100,000 a month under the tender mercies of Japanese occupation.
> 
> 
> 
> Invasion was necessary until Japan surrendered.  They did not surrender until after the second atomic bomb had been dropped.
> 
> 
> 
> That was way too long of a wait.  We should have recast the uranium from Little Boy into a bunch of composite implosion cores back in the early summer.
> 
> Then we should have nuked at least two targets every day, starting with Kyoto, then moving on to Hiroshima, then Kokura Arsenal, then Yokohama (which should have been saved for the atomic bombs), then Niigata, then the Nagasaki shipyards, then Yokosuka Arsenal.


Nuke em all 
Ask questions later


----------



## Dayton3

rightwinger said:


> Nuke em all
> Ask questions later



I prefer 

"nuke' em till they glow then shoot'em in the dark".


----------



## Unkotare

Open Bolt said:


> ...  About 15% of the dead at Hiroshima were Japanese soldiers.
> 
> ...



And what does that mean, Captain Math?


----------



## Dayton3

Unkotare said:


> And what does that mean, Captain Math?



Unkotare seems to be under the impression that if the U.S. tries to kill the enemy during wartime that it is a crime.


----------



## Open Bolt

Unkotare said:


> And what does that mean, Captain Math?


It means that the article lied about the figures in order to unjustly demonize the US.


----------



## Unkotare

Dayton3 said:


> Unkotare seems to be under the impression that if the U.S. tries to kill the enemy during wartime that it is a crime.


Did I say that? Show me where I said that, you lying sack of shit.


----------



## Unkotare

Unkotare said:


> Did I say that? Show me where I said that, you lying sack of shit.


.


----------



## Dayton3

Unkotare said:


> Did I say that? Show me where I said that, you lying sack of shit.



Do you deny suggesting that the U.S. nuclear attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were war crimes? 

You do know that the Japanese were our enemies during World War Two don't you?


----------



## Mushroom

gipper said:


> We didn’t need to occupy Japan.



Actually, we did.

One of the most costly lessons of WWI was that unless you put an occupation force in in place, you will only encourage those even more radical to come into power, and your next war will be even worse.

And amazingly, since 1945 none of the Axis powers have started another war.  And all have moderate governments.

Without an occupation, then odds are WWIII would have followed sometime in the 1960s.


----------



## Mushroom

rightwinger said:


> I have never seen a report of Japanese slaughtering civilians in 1945



Oh holy hell, have you never heard of the Battle of Okinawa?  Where tens of thousands of civilians were murdered by the Japanese Army?

It should be well known that in Japan, suicide was preferred to surrender.  However, Okinawa was a recent acquisition to the Japanese Empire, and that was not part of their culture.  Knowing that, the Japanese soldiers took it upon themselves to ensure that the civilians on Okinawa if possible would be saved from the eternal guilt of surrender by killing them.

If you think that never happened, then you obviously have never studied the Pacific War.  Hell, it is even included in Japanese textbooks now.


----------



## Unkotare

Unkotare said:


> Gen. MacArthur disagrees with you. The terms that he informed fdr about turned out to be the very  same as the ones we eventually accepted anyway.


.


----------



## Mushroom

Unkotare said:


> Gen. MacArthur disagrees with you. The terms that he informed fdr about turned out to be the very  same as the ones we eventually accepted anyway.



And you repeat yourself again, so I will repeat myself yet again.

Who did he meet that had the authority to make such an offer from the Japanese?  Where did they meet?  Why are there absolutely no records of this amazing meeting either anywhere among Japanese or American records.  Just a claim from General MacArthur yourself, with absolutely nothing to back this up.

In other words, where is your proof this ever happened?  Because the Big Six never authorized anybody to discuss such terms.  Not even their own Ambassador to the Soviet Union.


----------



## Unkotare

Clipping from Chicago Tribune - Newspapers.com
					

Clipping found in Chicago Tribune in Chicago, Illinois on Aug 14, 1965.




					www.newspapers.com


----------



## Unkotare

Unkotare said:


> Did I say that? Show me where I said that, you lying sack of shit.


.


----------



## Unkotare

https://www.army.mil/article/92856/the_story_of_the_nuts_reply


----------



## Unkotare

Unkotare said:


> Did I say that? Show me where I said that, you lying sack of shit.


.


----------



## AZrailwhale

Unkotare said:


> https://www.army.mil/article/92856/the_story_of_the_nuts_reply


What does this have to do with the current discussion?


----------



## Mushroom

AZrailwhale said:


> What does this have to do with the current discussion?



Nothing.  He can't verify anything, so just vomits up the same references endlessly.


----------



## Unkotare

Unkotare said:


> https://www.army.mil/article/92856/the_story_of_the_nuts_reply


.


----------



## ILOVEISRAEL

gipper said:


> A day that shall live in infamy.
> 
> Shame.
> 
> Mass murder of defenseless women and children, is nothing short of the most heinous thing a nation can do.


You’re correct! Why should US Military lives at Pearl Harbor Matter?  
You must be thinking about Afghanistan.


----------



## Unkotare

Unkotare said:


> Did I say that? Show me where I said that, you lying sack of shit.


.


----------



## Ringo




----------



## HenryBHough

Truman was the last Democrat to gave life un-castrated.


----------



## Mushroom

Ringo said:


>



And most of those were as part of UN Peacekeeping Forces.  The US has participated in dozens of them since the end of WWII, including Haiti (8 times), Lebanon (3 times), and many ongoing now in Africa and Asia as well as Europe.  But those were never US operations, they were UN operations.

So I guess you have no problem with people slaughtering each other, just so long as the US is not trying to stop it.

But what I find really interesting, I found no references for the USSR or Russia ever taking part in such operations.  That is strange, I wonder why?  Maybe because they hate peace?


----------



## Ringo

Mushroom said:


> But what I find really interesting, I found no references for the USSR or Russia ever taking part in such operations.  That is strange, I wonder why?  Maybe because they hate peace?


Russia also did not take part in the African slave trade. Probably because she hates blacks? According to your crooked logic.


----------



## Mushroom

Ringo said:


> Russia also did not take part in the African slave trade. Probably because she hates blacks?



No, because they had enough of their own domestic slaves that they did not need to import any.

Even when Alexander I banned Russia from taking part in the Slave Trade, it was meaningless as the serfs were still bought and sold like property.  That did not finally end until 1861 when Alexander II passed the Emancipation Reform of 1861 that more than 23 million Russians were finally freed.

There is no need to import slaves, when over 80% of the population of a nation are slaves.


----------



## Ringo

Mushroom said:


> No, because they had enough of their own domestic slaves that they did not need to import any.
> Even when Alexander I banned Russia from taking part in the Slave Trade, it was meaningless as the serfs were still bought and sold like property.  That did not finally end until 1861 when Alexander II passed the Emancipation Reform of 1861 that more than 23 million Russians were finally freed.
> There is no need to import slaves, when over 80% of the population of a nation are slaves.


Interestingly, "totalitarian Russia" did this before "Free America"... And in Russia it happened calmlyб but in a very free America, almost half of the country rose up in arms to defend slavery.
There is no more hypocritical state on Earth than the United States. The UK is coming close


----------



## Mushroom

Ringo said:


> Interestingly, "totalitarian Russia" did this before "Free America"... And in Russia it happened calmlyб but in a very free America, almost half of the country rose up in arms to defend slavery.



Actually, do not think that the Tsar ordering that it ended was all that was needed to end it.  In some regions like Kalmykia it lasted into the 1890s.  And the practice was not finally abolished in the entire country until around 1906.  At which point even a slave born in 1861 would have been free for almost their entire life, and would be into middle age.

Oh, and no.  "Half of the country" did not rise up to defend slavery.  Not even close.  Hell, not even all of the "slave states" rose up in arms.

There were 33 states at that time, and only 11 of 31 revolted.  That is significantly less than half.  And not even all of the "slave states" revolted.

You know, you are really not all that good at this "propaganda thing".  Because good propaganda should have at least a good amount of truth in it.  Simply making things up and then lying about them is simply pathetic.


----------



## Ringo

Mushroom said:


> Because good propaganda should have at least a good amount of truth in it.


Yeah, there is no truth in the fact that a significant part of the United States has taken up arms in defense of slavery and fought for 4 years, of course! (btw, you can accuse me of lying here, saying that I'm lying, that it hasn't been exactly 4 years, you're welcome)....  
There is no other such case in history. Some fought against slavery, yes, but for slavery... Only the freest USA. born in hypocrisy


----------



## Mashmont

Had the bomb been dropped by a Republican president, the left would be holding protests every August 6, wearing skeleton costumes, etc.


----------



## Unkotare

Mashmont said:


> Had the bomb been dropped by a Republican president, the left would be holding protests every August 6, wearing skeleton costumes, etc.


Republicans don't do such things. Like concentration camps, outrages against humanity are the purview of democrats.


----------



## gipper

Unkotare said:


> Republicans don't do such things. Like concentration camps, outrages against humanity are the purview of democrats.


Yeah Rs only start wars based on lies that result in the deaths of one million people, and they love torturing people too.


----------



## Mushroom

Ringo said:


> Yeah, there is no truth in the fact that a significant part of the United States has taken up arms in defense of slavery and fought for 4 years, of course!



Wait, make up your mind.

First you claimed half, now it is a "significant portion".  But in reality, it was much less than 1/3.

You know, it is so damned funny to see you fail so much like this.


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## Ringo

Mushroom said:


> First you claimed half, now it is a "significant portion".  But in reality, it was much less than 1/3..


I'm sorry, but if you decide to sign up as an idiot, then no one can help you.


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## RetiredGySgt

Ringo said:


> I'm sorry, but if you decide to sign up as an idiot, then no one can help you.


the idiot in this exchange is you. You made an ignorant false claim and doubled down instead of admitting to it.


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## Ringo

RetiredGySgt said:


> the idiot in this exchange is you. You made an ignorant false claim and doubled down instead of admitting to it.


No, idiots are those, who were raised and educated in propaganda and therefore are not able to accept the idea that a significant part of the United States (large enough, if it could wage war for 4 years) fought for the preservation and further development of slavery based on the idea of racial superiority of whites over blacks. This kind of shit was given to the world only by the USA. Well, later this idea of racial superiority was developed by the German Nazis.


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## Mushroom

Ringo said:


> I'm sorry, but if you decide to sign up as an idiot, then no one can help you.



Why, because I refuse to fall for your ever-changing line of coprolite?

That is one thing I have seen you do endlessly.  You make some claim, your claim is busted, then you make yet a new claim that is busted.  And insult those that bust your BS claims.

As I said, for spinning propaganda you absolutely suck.  Because real propaganda is more about "spin", then simply making up lies and expecting people to believe them.

Fact is, the Soviets were once masters of that art.  Hence, "Pravda".  You almost never found Pravda, Radio Moscow, or any of their news arms lying.  However, they would spin the information to the way they wanted others to hear it.

However, today Russia has completely lost that ability, and simply lies and expects others to believe it.


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## Unkotare

Unkotare said:


> Tell that to MacArthur. He wrote fdr a 47 page letter about it. fdr threw the letter in the garbage (much the same way he considered the Constitution and the lives of US servicemen).


.


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## Ringo

Mushroom said:


> Fact is, the Soviets were once masters of that art.  Hence, "Pravda".


Yes, the Soviet Union could appeal directly to the peoples over the heads of bourgeois governments and was listened to and understood. Now Russia also has a bourgeois government. But there is a gradation of meanness and Evil among bourgeois governments. It usually depends on the strength of the predator. Hence the result - the Evil Empire at the moment is the USA. Plus its satellites.


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## Unkotare

Clipping from Chicago Tribune - Newspapers.com
					

Clipping found in Chicago Tribune in Chicago, Illinois on Aug 14, 1965.




					www.newspapers.com


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## bodecea

mudwhistle said:


> Which is more horrific......an atomic bomb or the Democrat Party?


I'm sure that is above your ken.


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## Dayton3

gipper said:


> Yeah Rs only start wars based on lies that result in the deaths of one million people, and they love torturing people too.


assuming you are talking about the U.S. invasion of Iraq,  that number is at least five times the number who were killed in the invasion.

Furthermore: 

1) The U.S. never lied about WMDs in Iraq.
2) Iraq was given ample opportunity to give up and prevent the invasion.
3) there is no evidence that official or unofficial U.S. policy was ever to "torture people".


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## gipper

Dayton3 said:


> assuming you are talking about the U.S. invasion of Iraq,  that number is at least five times the number who were killed in the invasion.
> 
> Furthermore:
> 
> 1) The U.S. never lied about WMDs in Iraq.
> 2) Iraq was given ample opportunity to give up and prevent the invasion.
> 3) there is no evidence that official or unofficial U.S. policy was ever to "torture people".


Oh god not another imperialist warmonger dumb ass.


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## Dayton3

gipper said:


> dumb ass.



We know who you are.    No need to sign it.


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