# 23 years later, Tiananmen Square



## gxnelson (Jun 5, 2012)

> By AUDREY WOZNIAK and GLORIA RIVIERA
> BEIJING  Today marks the 23rd anniversary of the Tiananmen Square massacre, but in China any mention of that day remains forbidden.
> The Chinese government, which forbids any recognition of the massacre and the events leading up to it, has taken special measures in the last few days to further censor acknowledgement of the protests. Chinese micro-bloggers on the popular site Sina Weibo particularly felt the effects of censorship. Dissident posts were harmonized (removed) in minutes, profile pictures could not be changed, and the candle emoticon was removed.
> The list of blocked words was extensive, including words, names and numbers that related to the incident from never forget to tank to -ism. On television, the BBCs channel was blacked out during their segment on Tiananmen.
> In the square on Sunday a small group of protesters were beaten and detained, Maos mausoleum was closed, and large groups of uniformed and plainclothes police monitored the area. Today, it was quiet save for slightly heightened police presence.



Tiananmen Square Quietly Remembered 23 Years Later

There is a great vid at the end of an on the day news report. 

GL citizens of China.


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## Dante (Jun 5, 2012)

no one really cares because China makes iPhones


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## gxnelson (Jun 5, 2012)

ignorant and an asshole all rolled into one.


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## Artevelde (Jun 5, 2012)

Very successfull repression. I have a lot of sympathy for those fighting for human rights and more democracy in China, but it's not going to happen any time soon.


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## Dante (Jun 5, 2012)

gxnelson said:


> ignorant and an asshole all rolled into one.



do the world a favor  .. drop dead.


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## Dante (Jun 5, 2012)

Artevelde said:


> Very successfull repression. I have a lot of sympathy for those fighting for human rights and more democracy in China, but it's not going to happen any time soon.



God bless China, they bought our debt. Hate China? Turn in your credit cards and everything else. China is America's best friend


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## gxnelson (Jun 5, 2012)

China is key to this nation's success. 

But excuse me if I wanted to take a moment and remind people of the massacre that occurred that day. This isn't about race or about what a horrible place China is now (it isn't as bad as it was back then), but about remembering the countless students who died that day, and how horrible China's gov't was in the past. 

Sorry if  I felt like remembering the students slaughtered that day.


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## Franticfrank (Jun 5, 2012)

It is important to remember those events and alot of the people involved were thrown into prison without trial where they remain today. The Chinese are good at repression. If people thought more about that than their iPhones, we might be getting somewhere


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## Unkotare (Jun 5, 2012)

A number of my students were there during all that. It was only after quite a long while that any of them trusted me enough to speak about it, and then only in private, in hushed tones while casting nervous glances around. Some of them lost good friends during the crackdown and they had no illusions about what it meant to keep their mouths shut about their own participation. One student had some photos he took at the time. He kept them taped to the bottom of his mattress and would only show them to me after I had known him for more than a year.


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## Unkotare (Jun 5, 2012)

gxnelson said:


> China is key to this nation's success.




More true the other way around.


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## Artevelde (Jun 5, 2012)

gxnelson said:


> China is key to this nation's success.
> 
> But excuse me if I wanted to take a moment and remind people of the massacre that occurred that day. This isn't about race or about what a horrible place China is now (it isn't as bad as it was back then), but about remembering the countless students who died that day, and how horrible China's gov't was in the past.
> 
> Sorry if  I felt like remembering the students slaughtered that day.



Nothing wrong with that.

But it's important to draw lessons from what happened. The Tiananmen revolt was a useless waste of lives. In the short run it only made things worse and in the long run it changed nothing. The students had no support in the country at large and were thus easily suppressed.


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## gxnelson (Jun 5, 2012)

Artevelde said:


> gxnelson said:
> 
> 
> > China is key to this nation's success.
> ...



I keep forgetting sarcasm doesn't always translate on the internet. The post was in response to Dante, and the sorry's were sarcastic at best.


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## Artevelde (Jun 5, 2012)

gxnelson said:


> Artevelde said:
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> > gxnelson said:
> ...



I got your sarcasm.

My response was to what I perceived as your overly romanticized image of the protest.


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## Unkotare (Jun 5, 2012)

Artevelde said:


> The students had no support in the country at large and were thus easily suppressed.





You're not quite getting it.


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## Barb (Jun 5, 2012)

gxnelson said:


> > By AUDREY WOZNIAK and GLORIA RIVIERA
> > BEIJING  Today marks the 23rd anniversary of the Tiananmen Square massacre, but in China any mention of that day remains forbidden.
> > The Chinese government, which forbids any recognition of the massacre and the events leading up to it, has taken special measures in the last few days to further censor acknowledgement of the protests. Chinese micro-bloggers on the popular site Sina Weibo particularly felt the effects of censorship. Dissident posts were harmonized (removed) in minutes, profile pictures could not be changed, and the candle emoticon was removed.
> > The list of blocked words was extensive, including words, names and numbers that related to the incident from never forget to tank to -ism. On television, the BBCs channel was blacked out during their segment on Tiananmen.
> ...




To The Storm: The Odyssey of a Revolutionary Chinese Woman 

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/To-The-Storm-Odyssey-Revolutionary/dp/0520060296]Amazon.com: To The Storm: The Odyssey of a Revolutionary Chinese Woman (9780520060296): Daiyun Yue, Carolyn Wakeman: Books[/ame] 


is a great book written by a woman who lived through Bat shit Mao's bipolar revolutions and the damage they caused. It would be nice to see democracy come to China, but sadly, the most virulent strains of capitalism are already there. Yahoo and Google have been instrumental in identifying dissidents, and Yahoo helped the rulers in China to build it's Great Firewall. They weren't alone:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2UqKysJz6M&feature=related]Google Yahoo Cisco Microsoft accomplices of oppression in China (congressional committee hearing) - YouTube[/ame]


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## Dante (Jun 5, 2012)

No one cares


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## Barb (Jun 5, 2012)

Dante said:


> No one cares



As you are the official spokesperson for no one, that makes a certain amount of sense.


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## Dante (Jun 5, 2012)

okay, 5 people care


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## Barb (Jun 5, 2012)

Dante said:


> okay, 5 people care



or upwards of 1,338,299,512

World Development Indicators and Global Development Finance - Google Public Data Explorer


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## Katzndogz (Jun 5, 2012)

My art teacher was in Tiananmen Square when that went down.  He talks about it quite often.  The students wanted a confrontation, were itching for a fight and got more than they bargained for.  He hid, then went to one of the guards and told them he wasn't part of the demonstration.   They let him through and even let him call his girlfriend to tell her he was okay.  

The students then in revolt really didn't have any support in the country.  They were no different than our own OWS protesters, a bit cleaner perhaps.


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## Mr Natural (Jun 5, 2012)

They'll get a pass so long as they keep providing cheap labor to the corparatist scum of the world.


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## Peach (Jun 5, 2012)

Katzndogz said:


> My art teacher was in Tiananmen Square when that went down.  He talks about it quite often.  The students wanted a confrontation, were itching for a fight and got more than they bargained for.  He hid, then went to one of the guards and told them he wasn't part of the demonstration.   They let him through and even let him call his girlfriend to tell her he was okay.
> 
> The students then in revolt really didn't have any support in the country.  They were no different than our own OWS protesters, a bit cleaner perhaps.



You really believe that?

Great thread, now that China is "experimenting" with SMALL SCALE capitalism, I look for change within a generation.


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## Katzndogz (Jun 6, 2012)

Peach said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> > My art teacher was in Tiananmen Square when that went down.  He talks about it quite often.  The students wanted a confrontation, were itching for a fight and got more than they bargained for.  He hid, then went to one of the guards and told them he wasn't part of the demonstration.   They let him through and even let him call his girlfriend to tell her he was okay.
> ...



Do I believe that the student led revolt had little support in the country?  Is that the question?   Of course!  Student led revolts seldom have broad support in any country.  They have little support in this country.   The Chinese are not experimenting with capitalism, they are transitioning into capitalism.  They are managing that transition.  Just as our country is transitioning into communism.  The difference between the US and China is that China already knows that communism doesn't work.

It isn't only my art teacher.  The entire school is Chinese.  Myself and one other man are the only non-Chinese there.   They don't let in non-Chinese very often.


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## Unkotare (Jun 6, 2012)

You have to understand that most of "the rest of the country" had no idea what was going on, as information is tightly controlled domestically. Non-participants in Beijing who were aware of what was happening were very supportive of the students, bringing them food and whatnot, until the real violence began (generations of brutal communist totalitarianism had taught them what happens next).


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## Katzndogz (Jun 6, 2012)

How many people contributed to OWS shitting in the park?   Were the goals of OWS supported by a majority of the country?  

I have never been to China.  What I know of China comes from those in my school who are all Chinese and my sister in law who is a Chinese National and her teen age daughter who just recently arrived.  The Chinese find America far FAR more brutal than China.   More so because the brutality comes directly from Americans who are supported in their brutality by the government rather than directly from the government itself.  Yet, inexplicably punishes anyone who dares to defend themselves.

As an example, the recent protests that interfered with the individual's right to go to work or school unimpeded would never be tolerated in China.  The protester's brutality against their fellow citizens is somehow protected by the government as a freedom to be brutal.  Yet, it is well known that if someone was to fight back, it is they who would have been punished.


From what I have been learning about China, there isn't very much difference in the level of totalitarianism and oppression.    Rather than directly from the government, our oppressive and totalitarian regime uses surrogates.   Chna is becoming, incrementally, a more free country while we significantly less so.


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## Unkotare (Jun 6, 2012)

Katzndogz said:


> I have never been to China. .




Yeah, I know. That's one reason why you keep making declarations as if you were certain of them that turn out to be false. The reason you feel the need to constantly repeat said declarations after you have been corrected is a problem you should take up with your shrink.


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## Unkotare (Jun 6, 2012)

Katzndogz said:


> The Chinese find America far FAR more brutal than China.  .





That statement is ridiculous on many levels.


1) The great majority of Chinese people have never set foot in America and therefore can't "find" it any particular way.

2) Saying things like 'The Chinese think this or that' is offensively illogical since it assumes that all Chinese people think alike simply by dint of their being Chinese. Basing such absurd claims on the very few Chinese people in your art school  is even more illogical.

3) Claiming that the US is "more brutal" than the CCP is absurd and reflective of your deep ignorance of anything relating to this subject. Your admitted lack of any first-hand experience does not excuse such poor thinking. If you need to rely on that degree of hyperbole to make a point then it wasn't a good one to start with.


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## Katzndogz (Jun 6, 2012)

I get my information from various people who have lived in China their entire lives.   Why would I believe them over you?    Because they know more than you do.  The "proof" that what I have been told is false, only comes from you saying "Because I said so that's why".  

If I hear something presented as a fact, by five or more  different independent sources that don't agree with you, why would I believe you over five other individuals?   Is there anything you can give me as a foundation on which to trust your opinion over others who were born and raised in China?   Not just one, not just one city, or one region, but many individuals over a wide range of the nation.


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## Unkotare (Jun 6, 2012)

You admit you have no personal experience to inform your views on the matter (or the several other matters you insist on going on about) but you are so eager to play the expert that you cling to your ignorance and illogic in the face of all reason.

Try reading my previous post.


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## Unkotare (Jun 6, 2012)

Go ahead. Address any of the three points above.


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## Katzndogz (Jun 6, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> > The Chinese find America far FAR more brutal than China.  .
> ...



I agree, the vast majority of Chinese people have never been to America.  For those that have, their opinon of this country is not so good.   I don't blame you for being embarassed for the shameful state of the United States to the point where you want to ignore it.  I am.


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## Unkotare (Jun 6, 2012)

Katzndogz said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Katzndogz said:
> ...




So you admit your statement was illogical? Good. Now, of all the people of Chinese descent who are living in or have ever been to America, what percentage of them have you ever spoken to about this subject? Considerably less than 0.5%? Certainly. Now it's time to admit that your statement above was also illogical. Go ahead.


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## Unkotare (Jun 6, 2012)

This is starting to remind me of your 'college is free in China, and students there never drink or have sex' nonsense, or the more recent 'Japanese men don't like women' nonsense. You seem to have a need to play the expert despite your ignorance on a number of subjects. You should work on that.


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## Katzndogz (Jun 6, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> This is starting to remind me of your 'college is free in China, and students there never drink or have sex' nonsense, or the more recent 'Japanese men don't like women' nonsense. You seem to have a need to play the expert despite your ignorance on a number of subjects. You should work on that.



This is the vacation effect, like the I'm Feeling Richer effect.

I once went to China and I know more about it than the people who lived there all their lives syndrome.


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## Katzndogz (Jun 6, 2012)

Give me a reason to believe you, who I do not know, over the dozens and dozens of people I personally know and see every day.  Give me a reason to believe you instead of my sister in law or my niece.  A real reason, not that you visited one time and know more than they do, a real reason.


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## Unkotare (Jun 6, 2012)

Katzndogz said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > This is starting to remind me of your 'college is free in China, and students there never drink or have sex' nonsense, or the more recent 'Japanese men don't like women' nonsense. You seem to have a need to play the expert despite your ignorance on a number of subjects. You should work on that.
> ...




Your insistence on ignorance and illogic is remarkable. At least try to think about it for a minute.


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## Unkotare (Jun 6, 2012)

Katzndogz said:


> Give me a reason to believe you, who I do not know, over the dozens and dozens of people I personally know and see every day.  Give me a reason to believe you instead of my sister in law or my niece.  A real reason, not that you visited one time and know more than they do, a real reason.




Did you think it would go unnoticed that you are trying to use words like "visited" and "one time" to diminish what you KNOW you cannot dispute? Where will you go with that when I tell you I've been there several times and that I lived there for _two years_? And how does your "dozens of people" reasoning hold up when I tell you that I've discussed the things you guess at with thousands and thousands of people "who have lived there all their lives"? Even at that I would never presume to make declarations about what all Chinese people think the way you have tried to. 

You need to think more carefully and learn to take correction better.


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## Katzndogz (Jun 6, 2012)

I think you secretly want to spank me.  You can't.

You lived in China for two years, well la di da, that sure beats a 50 year old who has lived there since birth.

Again, give me a reason.  Living in China for two years doesn't cut it.  Give me a good reason to believe you over anyone, and everyone else.


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## Unkotare (Jun 6, 2012)

Katzndogz said:


> I think you secretly want to spank me. .




Sorry to disappoint you, but you'll have to go on paying for that wherever you have been.


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## Unkotare (Jun 6, 2012)

Katzndogz said:


> Again, give me a reason.






I did. Read the post, fool.


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## Unkotare (Jun 6, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> I've discussed the things you guess at with thousands and thousands of people "who have lived there all their lives"? Even at that I would never presume to make declarations about what all Chinese people think the way you have tried to.
> 
> You need to think more carefully and learn to take correction better.





Just in case you forgot. 



To review: You admit you have no personal experience upon which to draw, and you want to find talking to "dozens and dozens of people" at your art school persuasive, but ignore the fact that I have spoken with thousands and thousands of people in China and in the US about these topics in addition to having my own personal experiences with them. You wanted a reason, there are two for you. But you continue to cling to your ignorance and illogic.


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## Unkotare (Jun 6, 2012)

Katzndogz said:


> that sure beats a 50 year old who has lived there since birth.
> .





Anyone you have spoken with obviously hasn't "lived there since birth" because they would be currently living here, right? You see what I mean about not thinking carefully? Would it make you feel better to know that I discussed various topics like culture, society, and education with people in their 60s and 70s who really had "lived there since birth"? By your reasoning that means I must be correct. 


You just need to learn to take correction better.


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## Katzndogz (Jun 6, 2012)

Just because they got off the plane a month ago doesn't mean they haven't lived in China since birth.  My niece has been here less than six months.   Then there are simple vacationers here.   A lot of visitors come here and I've met  quite a few of them and had a chance to speak wth them.  Steve Wynn has moved his headquarters to China because our business climate is so hostile.  Generally hostile while China is more welcoming.   

I think that you may imagine you know what the Chinese think of China, but not what they think of the United States after having lived in China.   You know what you know and that's the end of it.  We are growing into a remarkably oppressive and brutal country.   It might be better to recognize that and deal with it.


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## Dante (Jun 6, 2012)

not many people care, especially the overwhelming majority of Chinese


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## Unkotare (Jun 6, 2012)

Katzndogz said:


> Just because they got off the plane a month ago doesn't mean they haven't lived in China since birth.




It seems you don't know understand the _present perfect _tense. Ask a Chinese ESL student to explain it to you.


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## Unkotare (Jun 6, 2012)

Katzndogz said:


> I think that you may imagine you know what the Chinese think of China, but not what they think of the United States after having lived in China.




You fail again, because I have also spoken with thousands of Chinese people here in the US about various such topics as well. Just accept that you don't know what you are talking about.


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## Unkotare (Jun 6, 2012)

Katzndogz said:


> We are growing into a remarkably oppressive and brutal country.   It might be better to recognize that and deal with it.




And that's what all this nonsense of yours has really been about. You just wanted to frame your asinine, hysterical conspiracy theory bullshit and you thought you could fabricate some legitimacy for youself this way. You fail again.

Let me guess, next you will tell us about the looming dissolution of the Union, right? You are a predictable, unamerican numbskull. STOP BEING SO STUPID.


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## Katzndogz (Jun 6, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> > We are growing into a remarkably oppressive and brutal country.   It might be better to recognize that and deal with it.
> ...




You still can't give ONE reason to believe you instead of people I know and you can't prove you were ever in China to begin with.  You are just like someone who wants to tell me what Los Angeles is like because they claim to have gone to San Francisco in 1952.

Give me one reason.  Just one, to discount every one but you.   Everyone is a liar but you, no Chinese person knows anything whatsoever about China but you.  So do it, give me a reason.  Prove that not only am I stupid, but everyone else is too.   Everyone but you.  

It wouldn't take very much to post a claim I lived in Norway for ten years.


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## Unkotare (Jun 6, 2012)

Katzndogz said:


> Give me one reason.  Just one, to discount every one but you.   Everyone is a liar but you, no Chinese person knows anything whatsoever about China but you.  So do it, give me a reason.  Prove that not only am I stupid, but everyone else is too.   Everyone but you.
> .





I have already told you why your reasoning is flawed and your claims don't stand up. The fact that you are now reduced to constructing flimsy straw men shows that you are aware of your failure. As for proving that you are stupid, your posts here do that quite well. _Everyone_ is not stupid, but you ARE (that was another failed straw man of yours, btw - ask someone to explain it to you).


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## Unkotare (Jun 6, 2012)

Katzndogz said:


> you can't prove you were ever in China to begin with.





You are not required to believe anything. Your claims would not stand up regardless.


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## Unkotare (Jun 6, 2012)

And, as usual, when you can no longer even pretend to defend your position, you run away...


...a few weeks later you'll repeat the same nonsense all over again


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## gxnelson (Jun 6, 2012)

Katzndogz said:


> The Chinese find America far FAR more brutal than China.



Talking outa your ass I see. 

Every single Chinese person who I know who has immigrated would much rather be here than China. And I know a lot of first gen Chinese. So please check that sort of BS at the door.


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## Unkotare (Jun 6, 2012)

gxnelson said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> > The Chinese find America far FAR more brutal than China.
> ...




It's a well-established pattern of behavior.


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## gxnelson (Jun 6, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> gxnelson said:
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> > Katzndogz said:
> ...



I've started to notice. I wonder if katz will even respond.


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## Unkotare (Jun 6, 2012)

I doubt it. When her every claim has been utterly refuted she tends to flee.


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## gxnelson (Jun 6, 2012)

Shame... 

I would also like to say, that I don't agree with you on a lot of things. But it was great to read about your experience. =)


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## Katzndogz (Jun 7, 2012)

gxnelson said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > gxnelson said:
> ...



Well sometimes I do get bored with nonsense and look for someone with something to say.

Especially with specious claims that can't be proved.   After hearing so much about your years in China, they sound about as real as the ten years I lived in Norway.

I will go this far.  The Chinese people I know would agree that China tolerates dissent far worse than we do, but socially the US is leagues more brutal.   In China, something like our protests would have been flattened by tanks.   But, the streets would be cleaned of criminals and drug addicts.  

The city I used to live in is becoming predominently Chinese.  That's one of the reasons I go back there so much.   It's becoming quite a pleasant place as they clean it up.  I especially like the ways they have developed to get around our more asinine and myriad laws, rules and regulations.   The Chinese are a very clever people.


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## Dante (Jun 8, 2012)

like I said... no one really cares


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## Unkotare (Jun 8, 2012)

Katzndogz said:


> After hearing so much about your years in China, they sound about as real as the ten years I lived in Norway.




Why? Do they differ from the years you lived in China? Hmmm?


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## Unkotare (Jun 8, 2012)

Katzndogz said:


> The Chinese people I know would agree that China tolerates dissent far worse than we do, but socially the US is leagues more brutal.




In case you were unaware of it, those comments were examples of you being stupid and illogical. You not only presume to speak for "Chinese people," but you AGAIN draw illogical conclusions based on an admitted lack of knowledge or experience.


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## Unkotare (Jun 8, 2012)

Katzndogz said:


> The city I used to live in is becoming predominently Chinese.  That's one of the reasons I go back there so much.   It's becoming quite a pleasant place as they clean it up. .





More proof of your lack of personal experience.


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## gxnelson (Jun 8, 2012)

Katzndogz said:


> gxnelson said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



I never claimed I lived in China. I was talking about the first gen I have spoke to about it. 

Personally, i have been to China twice, not including the fact I was born there. 

If you think China is this nice clean place where everything is pristine. Think again. When ever I went, my mother and I liked to go off the beaten track when we could. It was dirty, people were struggling, and it was all around unpleasant. It sounds like you believe the TV version of what China is. 

And you really need to stop being so condescending...


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## Artevelde (Jun 8, 2012)

gxnelson said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> > gxnelson said:
> ...



I've only been to Shanghai and some surrounding cities. Combination of very impressive modern development in the city and really rather smelly conditions in other parts. Nothing is perfect.


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## gxnelson (Jun 8, 2012)

Artevelde said:


> I've only been to Shanghai and some surrounding cities. Combination of very impressive modern development in the city and really rather smelly conditions in other parts. Nothing is perfect.



Agreed. But Katz is claiming it is. Or that's how it sounds at least.


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## Dante (Jun 8, 2012)

Okay, sometimes I say 'nobody gives a shit' and that's not the whole truth.  A handful of people do care...

they are such better human beings than the rest of us we feel shame, so we have to belittle them     




.


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## Unkotare (Jun 10, 2012)

When will Katz next make an ass of herself again?


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## Franticfrank (Jun 11, 2012)

Maybe someone was walking through the nice modern and new buildings, forgetting to take a walk in the suburbs


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