# Holy war comes to Germany



## Katzndogz (Oct 29, 2014)

It's a religious war and no one can escape.

Germany Holy War Erupts in Hamburg

Parts of downtown Hamburg, the second-largest city in Germany, resembled a war zone after hundreds of supporters of the jihadist group Islamic State [IS] engaged in bloody street clashes with ethnic Kurds.
The violence—which police say was as ferocious as anything seen in Germany in recent memory—is fuelling a sense of foreboding about the spillover effects of the fighting in Syria and Iraq.
Some analysts believe that rival Muslim groups in Germany are deliberately exploiting the ethnic and religious tensions in the Middle East to stir up trouble on the streets of Europe.
The unrest began on the evening of October 7, when around 400 Kurds gathered outside the Al-Nour mosque near the central train station in Hamburg's St. George district to protest against IS attacks on the Syrian Kurdish town of Kobani.
According to police, the initially peaceful protest turned violent when the Kurds were confronted by a rival group of around 400 Salafists armed with baseball bats, brass knuckles, knives, machetes and metal rods used to hold meat in kebab restaurants.


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## Swagger (Oct 29, 2014)

The cracks continue to spread in the foundations of multiculturalism. Excellent.


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## Sunni Man (Oct 29, 2014)

Doesn't sound anymore violent than your typical european soccer fan brawl.     ......


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## Saigon (Oct 29, 2014)

If it is a religious war - why are both sides Muslim?


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## Sunni Man (Oct 29, 2014)

Saigon said:


> If it is a religious war - why are both sides Muslim?


Please quit making logical posts.

It confuses the haters.    ......    

.


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## Swagger (Oct 29, 2014)

Sunni Man said:


> Doesn't sound anymore violent than your typical european soccer fan brawl.     ......


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## DriftingSand (Oct 29, 2014)

Why the hell won't the western nations start cleaning up this mess?  Arm their citizens and start sweeping the streets. It'll be happening here before you know it.


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## irosie91 (Oct 29, 2014)

Saigon said:


> If it is a religious war - why are both sides Muslim?



Stupid question------Christian history is full of wars between various Christian sects as is  muslim history full of a history of wars between muslim sects and/or  interest groups


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## Saigon (Oct 29, 2014)

Rosie - 

A religious war is - by definition - one between different religions. A war within a religion would be better described as an internecine conflict. 

The thing that makes me laugh is that people like Katz complain that moderate Muslims do take a firm stand against extremists. And yet when they do, he condemns them anyway.


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## irosie91 (Oct 29, 2014)

Saigon said:


> Rosie -
> 
> A religious war is - by definition - one between different religions. A war within a religion would be better described as an internecine conflict.
> 
> The thing that makes me laugh is that people like Katz complain that moderate Muslims do take a firm stand against extremists. And yet when they do, he condemns them anyway.



ok    you want to play semantics-------the fight now going on in the middle east----muslim on muslim is   INTERNICINE     -----better????            what is a   "moderate"  muslim?        I have interacted with hundreds of muslims and known scores ---well enough to   DISCUSS----issue ----over the past 50 yaers.        To me a moderate muslim is any who drinks beer----------most educated muslims in the USA ----drink beer


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## Swagger (Oct 29, 2014)

Saigon said:


> Rosie -
> 
> A religious war is - by definition - one between different religions. A war within a religion would be better described as an internecine conflict.
> 
> The thing that makes me laugh is that people like Katz complain that moderate Muslims do take a firm stand against extremists. And yet when they do, *he* condemns them anyway.



Katzndogz is a woman, Saigon.


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## Saigon (Oct 29, 2014)

Swagger said:


> Katzndogz is a woman, Saigon.



I'll say.


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## Two Thumbs (Oct 29, 2014)

Katzndogz said:


> It's a religious war and no one can escape.
> 
> Germany Holy War Erupts in Hamburg
> 
> ...


coming to an America near you!


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## Sunni Man (Oct 29, 2014)

irosie91 said:


> To me a moderate muslim is any who drinks beer----------most educated muslims in the USA ----drink beer


LOL......a muslim who drinks beer isn't really a muslim.   ....


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## Two Thumbs (Oct 29, 2014)

Saigon said:


> If it is a religious war - why are both sides Muslim?


different kinds of muslims

and way to miss the fucking point


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## Saigon (Oct 29, 2014)

Two Thumbs said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > If it is a religious war - why are both sides Muslim?
> ...



What IS the point?

That moderate Muslims are standing up to extremism, right?

Isn't that good?


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## irosie91 (Oct 29, 2014)

Sunni Man said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > To me a moderate muslim is any who drinks beer----------most educated muslims in the USA ----drink beer
> ...



LOL    what a joke you are sunni        then there are virtually no muslims in the world--------In Islamic cesspits-----non muslims SURVIVE  by making  either wine or beer for the local   "IMAM"              you forget----my own husband was born in an Islamic cesspit---------a jew-------his community survived the stink of Islamic rule because they knew how to make wine.      In the shariah cesspit in which he was born the local ruling   shariah pig was called   "imam"      Even the king of that shariah cesspit was called      "IMAM".        Years before I met hubby and Learned about the history of his community I the shariah cesspit--------I interacted with newly arriving  medical school graduates------at least half of them muslims------their first question     "where can I buy beer"?   ----the hindus never asked


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## irosie91 (Oct 29, 2014)

Saigon said:


> Two Thumbs said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
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no they aren't-------what  "modern"  muslims are "standing up to----"""EXTREMISM"""        ????       what are you calling  "extremism"-----the fighte in the middle east is not about  "extremism"------


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## Two Thumbs (Oct 29, 2014)

Saigon said:


> Two Thumbs said:
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> > Saigon said:
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Mods had a rally, then the real muslims showed up with weapons and attacked, putting the mods back in their place.


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## Sunni Man (Oct 29, 2014)

irosie91 said:


> -------In Islamic cesspits-----non muslims SURVIVE  by making  either wine or beer for the local   "IMAM"              you forget----my own husband was born in an Islamic cesspit---------a jew-------his community survived the stink of Islamic rule because they knew how to make wine.      In the shariah cesspit in which he was born the local ruling   shariah pig was called   "imam"      Even the king of that shariah cesspit was called      "IMAM".        Years before I met hubby and Learned about the history of his community I the shariah cesspit--------I interacted with newly arriving  medical school graduates------at least half of them muslims------their first question     "where can I buy beer"?   ----the hindus never asked


.................................^^^ another irosie fake story to fit every situation.  .....


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## irosie91 (Oct 29, 2014)

Sunni Man said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > -------In Islamic cesspits-----non muslims SURVIVE  by making  either wine or beer for the local   "IMAM"              you forget----my own husband was born in an Islamic cesspit---------a jew-------his community survived the stink of Islamic rule because they knew how to make wine.      In the shariah cesspit in which he was born the local ruling   shariah pig was called   "imam"      Even the king of that shariah cesspit was called      "IMAM".        Years before I met hubby and Learned about the history of his community I the shariah cesspit--------I interacted with newly arriving  medical school graduates------at least half of them muslims------their first question     "where can I buy beer"?   ----the hindus never asked
> ...



aw gee-        poor little muzzie------so distressed because I know TOO MUCH
about the stench of islaaaaam and its adherent  pimps and sluts


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## Sunni Man (Oct 29, 2014)

irosie91 said:


> aw gee-        poor little muzzie------so distressed because I know TOO MUCH
> about the stench of islaaaaam and its adherent  pimps and sluts


Actually, you know very little about Islam.

But it's quite comical to read your posts and hear you brag about your extensive knowledge of Islam and muslims.   .....


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## irosie91 (Oct 29, 2014)

Sunni Man said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > aw gee-        poor little muzzie------so distressed because I know TOO MUCH
> ...



LOL------you are obviously SCARED -----I kmow more about the stinking filth of islam than do you--------way back----at the very outset of the   "ARAB SPRING"   I
COREECTLY PREDICTED   the shit of islam blood bath that is taking place now.

Kinda funny------I discussed the very country In which hubby was born with a  
"convert"     (aka  "revert")  about two years ago      The bitch INSISTED  -------"all is calm in yemen"-----
ROFLAMAO------they are killing each other in the streets of Sanaa   RIGHT NOW


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## Decus (Oct 29, 2014)

Sunni and Shia have been killing each other for centuries. It will only end when one side manages to annihilate the other. Throw in the different tribes and others muslim sects and it holds the promise of being a never ending conflict.

.


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## irosie91 (Oct 29, 2014)

Decus said:


> Sunni and Shia have been killing each other for centuries. It will only end when one side manages to annihilate the other. Throw in the different tribes and others muslim sects and it holds the promise of being a never ending conflict.
> 
> .



It is true that the present  conflict in SANAA  YEMEN is actually Shiite on Sunni----sorta-----but MOST muslims in Yemen are sunnis and fight each other regularly anyway------a sunni Shiite thing over there is a kinda new phenomenon----I think it
galvanized by Iran and involves   IMPORTED  Shiites.      Of course one of the main
problems is that the  jews are ALL GONE------no one to pilage and rape LEFT----so they are left with EACH OTHER


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## Sunni Man (Oct 29, 2014)

Irosie has an invented story to fit every situation.      ....     

She just mixes and matches from her personal list in order to fabricate her tale. And then fills in the blanks.

1) My hubby grew up in (________) country.
2) I knew muslims from (________) who did (_______)
3) Many years ago I went to a mosque and they said (_______)
4) When I was young I (_______).
5) Many years ago a muslim told me (______)
6) I know more about Islam than (______)

Then for effect she throws in a few shock words to further highlight her fable .......filth, shit, cesspit, stink, pig, etc.    .....       .     

.


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## irosie91 (Oct 29, 2014)

Sunni Man said:


> Irosie has an invented story to fit every situation.      ....
> 
> She just mixes and matches from her personal list in order to fabricate her tale. And then fills in the blanks.
> 
> ...



you are desperate sunni----typical of the filth of those who adhere to the stink of meccaism---
depriveds scum      ALL----      I wonder how many babies were mutilated in the name of
muhummad al kanzeer today


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## Decus (Oct 29, 2014)

irosie91 said:


> Decus said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni and Shia have been killing each other for centuries. It will only end when one side manages to annihilate the other. Throw in the different tribes and others muslim sects and it holds the promise of being a never ending conflict.
> ...



When I mentioned tribalism it was to underscore that their conflicts are not solely based religious affiliation. Shifting loyalties are the norm.

Israel is a convenient excuse often used by the regions Arab, Persian and Turkish rulers to turn attention away from their own mismanagement of their respective countries. In truth the region would have to find a new boogeyman if Israel wasn't there.

.


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## irosie91 (Oct 29, 2014)

Decus said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
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> > Decus said:
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   all true--------there has never been a time when there was  NO ONE to hate for the UMMAH          From the time of   "AL NABI"-----the issue was 
"FIGHT THE ENEMY"---------when there are no other enemies-----there are
----the  "other"     "not really muslim"     muslims.        Way back in 1971----I learned the word   "TAKFIR"---------West Pakistan had conflict with East Pakistan.      In fact the  west Pakistanis differ ethinically from East Pakistanis-------even though both are sunnis  (mostly)       East Pakistanis are  "Bengalis"   and do not even speak the same language as the   west Pakistanis  (Urdu)------Bengalis have their own language----the same as  the  Bengalis of  EAST BENGAL---INDIA   (mostly Hindus)       What to do in order to rape and pillage them LEGALLY according to
sharriah--------SIMPLE----a  DECLARATION OF TAKFIR------West Pakistanis
clerics DECLARED   the  muslims of east Pakistan    "TAKFIR"---ie  "not real muslims"       1/4 million girls were raped  
     clever people------a very logical  "legal system"


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## Saigon (Oct 30, 2014)

Sunni Man said:


> Irosie has an invented story to fit every situation.      ....
> 
> She just mixes and matches from her personal list in order to fabricate her tale. And then fills in the blanks.
> 
> ...



That "really" is very good....particularly "if one" also borow's Rosie's habits of putting speech marks on "random" selected words, and thows in a few dashes for luck!


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## Unkotare (Oct 30, 2014)

Saigon said:


> That "really" is very good....particularly "if one" also borow's [sic] Rosie's habits of putting speech marks [sic] on "random" selected words, and thows [sic] in a few dashes for luck!




Failed another ESL course, eh genius?


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## Shaam (Oct 30, 2014)

Muslims just can't help pissing off the entire world.


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## Saigon (Oct 30, 2014)

Shaam said:


> Muslims just can't help pissing off the entire world.



 Try and post with a little common sense - just because you hate a people does not mean anyone else does - far less the entire world.


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## Shaam (Oct 30, 2014)

Saigon said:


> Shaam said:
> 
> 
> > Muslims just can't help pissing off the entire world.
> ...



Oh god, it was obviously a tongue-in-cheek post....kind of.

The fact remains that Islam is completely irreconcilable and incompatible with the world today.


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## Saigon (Oct 30, 2014)

Shaan - 

Is it really? 

And yet the majority of Muslim countries that I have been to are safe, functioning, peaceful countries. 

Are you sure it is not your own jaundiced world view that is incompatable with reality?


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## Shaam (Oct 30, 2014)

Saigon said:


> Shaan -
> 
> Is it really?
> 
> ...



So are all of the Muslim countries I have visited (UAE, Kuwait, Qatar, Oman, Bahrain, Indonesia, and Malaysia), and yet because I have actually studied Islam on a theological level, I stand by my assertions and will defend them if need be.


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## Rikurzhen (Oct 30, 2014)

Saigon said:


> Shaan -
> 
> Is it really?
> 
> ...



As was the Soviet Union, as was Nazi Germany. Tribal societies have ways of keeping society safe. Functioning though is a pretty low bar. I found regular bribes to be customary in order for "function" to get off its derriere and  get to work. Things got done, so yes, society functioned, but I wouldn't call what I was seeing efficient function.


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## Saigon (Oct 30, 2014)

The soviet Union and Nazi Germany were safe, peaceful, functioning societies?

Fascinating. I didn't know that.


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## Saigon (Oct 30, 2014)

Shaan -

So if all of the countries you have been to were safe, peaceful, functioning societies, how are they irreconcilable with reality?


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## Truman123 (Oct 30, 2014)

My money is on the Kurds.


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## Shaam (Oct 30, 2014)

Saigon said:


> Shaan -
> 
> So if all of the countries you have been to were safe, peaceful, functioning societies, how are they irreconcilable with reality?



I never said they were. I said Islam is incompatible with humanity.

Islam's core doctrine calls for incessant, unabated warfare against non-Muslims until the entire world is ruled by the faithful (Muslims). It is the final surah (chapter) delivered to Mohammad by Allah in the Qur'an, and according to the doctrine of abrogation embedded within the Qur'an itself, would qualify as superseding any and all calls for peaceful co-existence with infidels/only waging war as a defensive measure.

Jews and Christians should be tolerated as subjugated citizens to Islamic hegemony- but there is no provision requiring Muslims treat people of other orientations be they Hindu, Buddhist, Sikh, Zoroastrian, atheist, agnostic, etc. with the same accord.

Whether or not Muslims around the world read into this stuff quite literally, which thankfully most don't- it still doesn't discount the inherent problem with Islam.


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## Rikurzhen (Oct 30, 2014)

Saigon said:


> The soviet Union and Nazi Germany were safe, peaceful, functioning societies?
> 
> Fascinating. I didn't know that.



Sure they were. They weren't successful nor free, but street crime was controlled, laws were obeyed, things got done, so government and society did function.

The point is that you hold out a very low bar for nations to cross.


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## Saigon (Oct 30, 2014)

What the Koran or Bible call for and how people liveare entirely different  issues. 

I agree that the Koran is incompatable with humanity when taken literally, but other than the Taliban and ISIS, who really takes it literally?

As long as countries like many of those you have been to are stable and peaceful and doing well, I don't see a problem.


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## Rikurzhen (Oct 30, 2014)

Saigon said:


> What the Koran or Bible call for and how people liveare entirely different  issues.
> 
> I agree that the Koran is incompatable with humanity when taken literally, but other than the Taliban and ISIS, who really takes it literally?
> 
> As long as countries like many of those you have been to are stable and peaceful and doing well, I don't see a problem.



Who takes it literally?

A Pakistani Christian woman has been sentenced to hang after she was accused of making 'blasphemous' comments about the prophet Mohammed during an argument. 

While working as a berry picker in 2009, 46-year-old Asia Bibi got into a dispute with a group of Muslim women who objected to her drinking their water because as a Christian she was considered 'unclean'.

Hours after the incident one of the women reported mother-of-five Ms Bibi to a local cleric, claiming she had made disparaging remarks about the prophet Mohammed during the row.

As a result of the allegations, a furious mob arrived at Ms Bibi's home and savagely beat her and members of her family. 

She was later arrested, charged with blasphemy and eventually sentenced to death - with her entire family forced to go into hiding after receiving threats on their lives.

This week, despite international outrage and hundreds of thousands of people signing a petition for her release, Ms Bibi lost an appeal to have her sentence overturned, meaning she now faces death by hanging.

The shocking case hit global headlines after two prominent politicians who tried to help Ms Bibi were assassinated, one by his own bodyguard.

Lawyers showered the killer with rose petals when he appeared in court and the judge who convicted him of murder had to flee the country.​


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## Shaam (Oct 30, 2014)

Saigon said:


> What the Koran or Bible call for and how people liveare entirely different  issues.
> 
> I agree that the Koran is incompatable with humanity when taken literally, but other than the Taliban and ISIS, who really takes it literally?



Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Hamas, Hezbollah, Lashkar-e-Taiba, Jaish-e-Mohammed, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Caucasus Emirate, Abu Sayaff. and literally *hundreds if not thousands of other outfits.
*


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## Esmeralda (Oct 30, 2014)

DriftingSand said:


> Why the hell won't the western nations start cleaning up this mess?  _*Arm their citizens and start sweeping the streets*_. It'll be happening here before you know it.


 Like in Nazi Germany?


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## Esmeralda (Oct 30, 2014)

Saigon said:


> Rosie -
> 
> A religious war is - by definition - one between different religions. A war within a religion would be better described as an internecine conflict.
> 
> The thing that makes me laugh is that people like Katz complain that moderate Muslims do take a firm stand against extremists. And yet when they do, he condemns them anyway.


Is Katz a man? Always thought Katz was a woman.....


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## Esmeralda (Oct 30, 2014)

Sunni Man said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > To me a moderate muslim is any who drinks beer----------most educated muslims in the USA ----drink beer
> ...


Turkey is 90% Muslim, and drinking is common there.  There are mini-marts on practically every corner in Izmir, and they are open until quite late at night.  They sell beer, wine, and liquor.  It is easier to get alcohol in Turkey than it is in Austria.


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## irosie91 (Oct 30, 2014)

Esmeralda said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
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> > irosie91 said:
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So true----try telling a turk----"you are not a muslim"


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## Esmeralda (Oct 30, 2014)

Shaam said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > What the Koran or Bible call for and how people liveare entirely different  issues.
> ...


Hyperbole. Have you no shame? You're as bad as any Islamic fundamentalist and extremist.


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## Shaam (Oct 30, 2014)

Esmeralda said:


> Shaam said:
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> > Saigon said:
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O Rly?

List of designated terrorist organizations - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


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## Meathead (Oct 30, 2014)

About 98% of Turkey is Muslim. Their intolerance for other religions was genocidal for the Christian Greeks, Armenians and Assyrians who inhabited those lands well before the Turks arrived.


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## Esmeralda (Oct 30, 2014)

Shaam said:


> Esmeralda said:
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> > Shaam said:
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There are not hundreds listed there, nowhere near. And, in fact, many of those listed are PAST organizations, not current.  You used hyperbole to formulate what is essentially a lie.  Shame on you.


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## Shaam (Oct 30, 2014)

Esmeralda said:


> Shaam said:
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> > Esmeralda said:
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That list doesn't even scratch the surface in fact. There are scores more which go undocumented without official proscription by a state department. I had a relative who was a soldier in Indian-administered Kashmir in the 90s, and he'd recount the number of random Islamic militant groups which would spring up, fade, spring up, etc. in a vicious cycle.

As for past vs. present, what you fail to realize in appealing to this useless point of semantics is that it doesn't matter. You don't think there is a great deal of transference between these groups, or that they share the same ideological fountain? The Arab Mujahideen legions which battles Soviet forces in Afghanistan in the late 80s shifted to Chechnya a few years later and trained the early ranks of Jihadists who went on to slaughter Russian civilians on their home turf.

Its an intricate web of bloodletting.


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## Saigon (Oct 30, 2014)

Rikurzhen said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > The soviet Union and Nazi Germany were safe, peaceful, functioning societies?
> ...




Low street crime, granted, but even in the 1930s both regimes were imprisoning minorities, silencing critics, eyeing up other countries to invade and generally behaving like tyrants. 

One cannot say that of Tunisia, Malaysia or dozens of other Islamic countries.


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## Saigon (Oct 30, 2014)

Shaam said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > What the Koran or Bible call for and how people liveare entirely different  issues.
> ...



There are 40 Islamic countries. You have listed organisations operating in perhaps a half dozen countries. 

I totally agree that groups like ISIS hold views incompatable with civilised values, but they are essentially an army fighting a war in two countries.  I don't think the values of an army or militia are representative of what people in those countries want or believe. 

Just this morning we saw Secularists and Moderates sweep to power in Tunisia - couldn't we as accurately base our view of Islam on what they want?


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## Saigon (Oct 30, 2014)

irosie91 said:


> So true----try telling a turk----"you are not a muslim"



So there are the moderates you claim do not exist. 

Just as there are in Morocco, in Tunisia, in Indonesia, Malaysia, Senegal and Ghana, in Albania, Jordan and even Egypt or Bangladesh. 

There are hundreds of millions of moderate Muslims, even if not all of them drink beer.


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## Rikurzhen (Oct 30, 2014)

Saigon said:


> Shaam said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
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What do you believe an army is if not people volunteering to a common cause? Recruitment into ISIS is outpacing war casualties. This signals that the movement's ideals are widely held and popular enough for men, and women, to risk their lives in order to bring about a new vision of Islamic society.

You're casting the army of ISIS as something apart, outside of, "the people" when in fact it represents a part of "the people."

As for Tunisia, why would you attach any significance to an odd-duck event? This is motivated reasoning on your part - you have a conclusion that you favor and you're searching around for evidence to help support that conclusion. Looking at your baby take his first step and concluding that he's destined to by an Olympic marathon champion is similarly nonsensical. After Tunisia has maintained a stable democracy for 50 years, then we can assess what it brings to the world of Islam but right now it's an oddity, perhaps a flash in the pan, perhaps a new vision, hard to tell and because it's hard to tell it should be heavily discounted as evidence in your argument.


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## Rikurzhen (Oct 30, 2014)

Saigon said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > So true----try telling a turk----"you are not a muslim"
> ...



Is that the same argument as there were millions of moderate Nazis back before, during and after WWII. The bad Nazis were those involved in war crimes, but the moderates where the ones who didn't act but just believed in the righteousness of the Nazi creed. That's your argument?


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## Rikurzhen (Oct 30, 2014)

Saigon said:


> Rikurzhen said:
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> > Saigon said:
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Tunisia just had two political assassinations last year. Doesn't that count as "silencing critics?"


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## Saigon (Oct 30, 2014)

Rikurzhen said:


> Saigon said:
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> > irosie91 said:
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No. It isn't. Perhaps try reading what I wrote.


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## Saigon (Oct 30, 2014)

Rikurzhen said:


> Saigon said:
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That depends who assasinated who, really, doesn't it?

Tunisia had fully democratic elections yesterday, and Secularists won. This should be see posters here waving their hands in joy, but actually for most Muslim-hating posters here it is bad news, and will be soundly ignored.

In fact, any news about Moderate Islam will be ignored, because it fails to play into the McCarthyist cliches of impending doom and foreign domination.


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## Rikurzhen (Oct 30, 2014)

Saigon said:


> Rikurzhen said:
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> > Saigon said:
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You claimed that there were "moderate" Muslims. Well, there's a spectrum to all beliefs. There are fanatic hockey fans and moderate hockey fans. Same too with Nazis. What's your problem with moderate Nazis? They never lifted a finger to harm anyone, just like moderate Muslims don't engage in beheadings. Why do you favor moderate Muslims and not moderate Nazis?


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## Esmeralda (Oct 30, 2014)

Shaam said:


> Esmeralda said:
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> > Shaam said:
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So say you. If you don't have valid, concrete evidence of a claim, it is meaningless.


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## Rikurzhen (Oct 30, 2014)

Saigon said:


> Rikurzhen said:
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You're attaching too much importance to a freak occurrence. Iraq had elections too. Same with Afghanistan. How did those elections turn out?

Besides, the economy was the top issue in Tunisia - loads of unemployment there, so reaching out for new modes of governance (see Germany in 1930s) isn't something unexpected.


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## Saigon (Oct 30, 2014)

Rikurzhen said:


> You're casting the army of ISIS as something apart, outside of, "the people" when in fact it represents a part of "the people."
> 
> As for Tunisia, why would you attach any significance to an odd-duck event? This is motivated reasoning on your part - you have a conclusion that you favor and you're searching around for evidence to help support that conclusion. Looking at your baby take his first step and concluding that he's destined to by an Olympic marathon champion is similarly nonsensical. After Tunisia has maintained a stable democracy for 50 years, then we can assess what it brings to the world of Islam but right now it's an oddity, perhaps a flash in the pan, perhaps a new vision, hard to tell and because it's hard to tell it should be heavily discounted as evidence in your argument.




Nonsense...did Baader Meinhoff represent "the people" of Germany?

Does the LRA represent "the people" of Uganda or Chad?

They have some support, obviously, but how widespeared that is, and particularly how voluntarily people join them cannot be known. 

They could well be forcing recruits to join them - do you know that they are  not?


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## Saigon (Oct 30, 2014)

An election following years of dictatorship is a freak occurance??

Or is it a sign of real progress that should be celebrated and encouraged?

Likewise, isn't it about time people acknwledged that a great many Islamic countries have democratic elections, and that those elections often elect moderate and secularist governments?


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## Shaam (Oct 30, 2014)

Saigon said:


> Shaam said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...



1) There are more than 40 Islamic countries. The fact that you admit these groups are operating in several countries disproves what you said earlier about it just being "ISIS and the Taliban".

2) ISIS is a non-state actor which is killing and raping innocent people, and almost everything they do can be justified theologically if you examine the life the Prophet Mohammed and the sahabah. That is what is most disconcerting.

3) No, the secularists and moderates cannot be viewed as reflective of Islam when Islam is diametrically opposed to both alien notions.......just as it is to human rights, women's rights, freedom religion, freedom of expression and conscience, etc, etc.


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## Rikurzhen (Oct 30, 2014)

Saigon said:


> Rikurzhen said:
> 
> 
> > You're casting the army of ISIS as something apart, outside of, "the people" when in fact it represents a part of "the people."
> ...




Baader Meinhoff, a handful of people, are not comparable to ISIS, an actual army fighting a very real war. Besides, ISIS has popular support:

The Sakina Campaign plans to carry out a scientific survey to determine the position of the Saudi public on the "caliphate" announced by the Islamic State (IS) in Iraq and Syria. This comes after the results of an opinion poll of Saudis were released on social networking sites,* claiming that 92% of the target group believes that "IS conforms to the values of Islam and Islamic law."*​


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## Rikurzhen (Oct 30, 2014)

Saigon said:


> An election following years of dictatorship is a freak occurance??
> 
> Or is it a sign of real progress that should be celebrated and encouraged?
> 
> Likewise, isn't it about time people acknwledged that a great many Islamic countries have democratic elections, and that those elections often elect moderate and secularist governments?



Last time I looked, Russia has elections too. Are you rejoicing about how free Russia is these days?


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## Saigon (Oct 30, 2014)

Rikurzhen - 

Russia is not free. Tunisia is. 

Not difficult stuff, this.


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## Saigon (Oct 30, 2014)

Rik - 

The fact remains that there is no more evidence that ISIS represents the will of the Syrian or Iraqi people any more than any other terrorist group or militia can claim that - particularly when they are using forced recruitment.

I see them as being largely a home for fighters drifting into their ranks after yeats fighting for or against Saddam or from other anti-Assad groups. I don't find it surprising that they recruit a few thousand men that way.


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## Saigon (Oct 30, 2014)

Shaan - 

Terror groups exist in any force in perhaps 6 of 40 Islmic countries, 3 of which are at war. I don't find that wildly shocking myself. The same could be said of Christin countries in Afrrica, albeit with groups less of a threat to the west.

You can claim moderation and human rights are incompatable with Islam, and yet both exist in the Islamic world to a faur extent. When I compare Turkey or Tunisia or Malaysia with, say, Georgia, Liberia or Philippines, I don't see a yawning gulf. 

Is Christianity compatable with human rights, or is the problem more regional thn religious?


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## Sunni Man (Oct 30, 2014)

Rikurzhen said:


> You're attaching too much importance to a freak occurrence. Iraq had elections too. Same with Afghanistan. How did those elections turn out?


The Iraq and Afghanistan elections were held by an occupying force (the U.S.).

Whereas, the Tunisian elections were a result of the people wanting to decide their destiny by voting.

Big difference.........


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## irosie91 (Oct 30, 2014)

Esmeralda said:


> Shaam said:
> 
> 
> > Saigon said:
> ...




Esmeralda----your post makes no sense at all.       You  revealed the fact that you do not understand the word   HYPERBOLE.     There is nothing about the post that
suggests that the poster is anything related to your filth of Islamic anything


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## irosie91 (Oct 30, 2014)

Saigon said:


> irosie91 said:
> 
> 
> > So true----try telling a turk----"you are not a muslim"
> ...



your  post makes no sense-----I do not drink beer either-----nothing to do with
religion-----that stuff tastes like poison.        What are you calling a "moderate muslim"????


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## irosie91 (Oct 30, 2014)

Rikurzhen said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> > irosie91 said:
> ...




Nope------Nazis like you who are not camp guards are not  "moderates"   by my definition of moderate


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## High_Gravity (Oct 30, 2014)

Katzndogz said:


> It's a religious war and no one can escape.
> 
> Germany Holy War Erupts in Hamburg
> 
> ...


 
Are the Kurds the only Muslims against ISIS?


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## Shaam (Oct 30, 2014)

Saigon said:


> Shaan -
> 
> Terror groups exist in any force in perhaps 6 of 40 Islmic countries, 3 of which are at war. I don't find that wildly shocking myself. The same could be said of Christin countries in Afrrica, albeit with groups less of a threat to the west.
> 
> ...



Once again, there are more than 40 Muslim-majority countries. The official figure is 57 if you include the Palestinian authority.

Terrorist groups exist en masse in Muslim AND non-Muslim countries. In countries like Israel, India or Russia, there are several Islamist groups which have actively perpetrated terrorism......so where on earth do you compute a sum total of "6", LOL??

Yes, moderation and human rights are antithetical with Islam, and even still there are Muslim countries which uphold those provisions- but how does that invalidate any of my commentary? Islam is the Qu'ran and ahadith, not Turks, Tunisians, and Malaysians who may/may no act in accordance to the prescribed parameters of their faith.

As for Christian "extremists" in Africa- they are largely a product of Christian militia groups who seek vengeance for Muslim instigation of conflict. Do you really think, left to their own devices and disassociated from civil war-esque scenarios , they'd be behaving in the same manner?


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## Saigon (Oct 30, 2014)

Shaam - 

I don't think many of us judge Israel's human rights records on the Talmud, nor do we judge Ireland's on the Bible. 

To my mind there is a natural evolutionary process in all of our socities that as standards of education improve and standards of living rise, so peoples' lifestyles evolve. They may maintain religious and cultural traditions, but they do so within a society in which work and schools and sports and entertainment play a stronger role than they did in 1925. 

I can think of plenty of Christian countries where terror ruled within my lifetime - Ireland, Argentina, Chile, El Salvador, Spain and Greece to name a few. In how many of those countries do we see regular acts of terrorism today?

The main factors for that change is improving standards of living and education. 

We now see the same development in Indonesia, Turkey and Malaysia, to name a few. I am completely confidant that we will see people maintain Islamic traditions (and I hope they do) but in a much more tolerant and moderate form than was the case 20 years ago. 

As for the number of Muslim-dominated countries, I see Wikipedia now says 49. I thought it was 40 last time I checked, but I could be wrong. There are several in Africa that are difficult to call either way, such as Senegal or Ghana. 57 sounds high to me. 

I stand by my point that terrorism is only widespread in a half-dozen Muslim countries, such as Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan of course, and I might also include Somalia, Pakistan and Libya. One could make a case for Chechenya, but that is fairly quiet these days.


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## Saigon (Oct 30, 2014)

Shaam said:


> As for Christian "extremists" in Africa- they are largely a product of Christian militia groups who seek vengeance for Muslim instigation of conflict. Do you really think, left to their own devices and disassociated from civil war-esque scenarios , they'd be behaving in the same manner?



Yes.

In CAR, Sri Lanka and Burma, the violence is instigated BY Christians and Buddhists AGAINST Muslims - not the other way around.


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## Shaam (Oct 30, 2014)

Saigon said:


> Shaam -
> 
> I don't think many of us judge Israel's human rights records on the Talmud, nor do we judge Ireland's on the Bible.
> 
> ...



Aside from Ireland- which also would probably qualify as a weak example- none of those countries suffered tyrannical rule explicitly because of Christian teachings or collectives acting out on behalf of Christian interests. Communism and Fascism are altogether different animals.

In order for Muslims to reconcile with a peaceable future with the rest of humanity, they need to either cease from practicing the religion or remove any and all teachings in the Qu'ran/Ahadith which exhort its followers to commit acts of violence..... and to do so would constitute "hypocrisy" (munafiq) and those Muslims pursuing such a policy so would be killed according to blasphemy laws under Shariah.


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## Shaam (Oct 30, 2014)

Saigon said:


> Shaam said:
> 
> 
> > As for Christian "extremists" in Africa- they are largely a product of Christian militia groups who seek vengeance for Muslim instigation of conflict. Do you really think, left to their own devices and disassociated from civil war-esque scenarios , they'd be behaving in the same manner?
> ...



Err, what? The violence against Muslims in Sri Lanka and Burma is conducted by Buddhist groups, not Christian.

I grant you Sri Lanka as being an example of Buddhists drawing first blood against Muslims- Sinhalese Buddhist ultranationalism would probably have most of this forum's armchair critics on Israeli policies shutting up- but in Burma it is not the case. The Rohingya Muslims started the mass eurption of the conflict after encroaching upon and expropriating Rakhine Buddhist lands. Hell, the violence over the past couple years is due to Muslim mobs raping a Buddhist girl.


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## Saigon (Oct 30, 2014)

Shaam .- 

In what way did Spain under Franco NOT suffer tyranny?!

And I'd ask the same question about Pinochet, Cristiani and the Argentine Generals....not to mention the Greek Civil War, for gods sake!

ALL of those were Christians, quoted the bible and often attritbuted their actions to Christ. What more do we need?


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## Rikurzhen (Oct 30, 2014)

Saigon said:


> Rikurzhen -
> 
> Russia is not free. Tunisia is.
> 
> Not difficult stuff, this.



Define your terms. What constitutes freedom?  There is a lot of sexual debauchery in Russia, they're free to be libertines there. Does Tunisia have the same freedom for sluts that Russia has?


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## Rikurzhen (Oct 30, 2014)

Saigon said:


> Shaam -
> 
> I don't think many of us judge Israel's human rights records on the Talmud, nor do we judge Ireland's on the Bible.



Neither book in an instruction manual on how to construct and operate a society, they're focused on spirituality. Islam shares the category of religion with Christianity and Judaism but it is so much more, it is a system of laws and a system of governance. It's all encompassing, not tolerating any competing power centers in a society. One must judge by appropriate standards and you're not doing that.



> To my mind there is a natural evolutionary process in all of our socities that as standards of education improve and standards of living rise, so peoples' lifestyles evolve. They may maintain religious and cultural traditions, but they do so within a society in which work and schools and sports and entertainment play a stronger role than they did in 1925.



The hubris of liberals. All the world will become liberal as the primitive societies evolve. What you propose is built on a foundation of fallacious thinking. All paths do not lead to liberalism. Islam has been in contact with the West long before the Enlightenment took form. There was cultural contact through that entire time. The West long ago outpaced the lands of Islam and yet there has been no movement to embrace Enlightenment values nor to foster an Islamic Enlightenment. Clearly the evidence shows that they are following a different path than the Christian-West.



> I can think of plenty of Christian countries where terror ruled within my lifetime - Ireland, Argentina, Chile, El Salvador, Spain and Greece to name a few. In how many of those countries do we see regular acts of terrorism today?



I can think of plenty of people who have been murdered yet when the murder victim happens to be JFK, RFK, Lincoln, etc then we're not talking simply murder, we're talking assassination and politics. You pointing to societies which suffered from terror doesn't mean you've made an equation to societies suffering terror due to efforts to implement Islam as it was designed to be implemented. The societies you've referenced didn't have revolutionaries or leaders thumbing through the Bible looking for instructions on how best to implement a Biblical vision of a best society.



> We now see the same development in Indonesia, Turkey and Malaysia, to name a few. I am completely confidant that we will see people maintain Islamic traditions (and I hope they do) but in a much more tolerant and moderate form than was the case 20 years ago.



And yet trends seem to be moving in the other direction. Turkey is becoming more Islamist in government, overturning the long entrenched Kemalism. Indonesia is implementing shariah in some provinces:


*Young and in love in Indonesia? Beware, in Banda Aceh the sharia police are watching *

On the pier by the port, several couples brave the law by sitting closely together, sometimes holding hands. Luckily for them,* the sharia police* don't seem to be coming this evening.* Islamic sharia law* was adopted in 2001, a “gift” from Jakarta to quell separatist ambitions in this very religious part of Indonesia. A series of bylaws passed since impose Islamic dress code and forbid gambling, alcohol consumption and “seclusion” between unmarried couples. . . .

In the Eastern Aceh town of Langsa, the case of a 25-year-old widow caught last week with a married man by eight men,* who raped her as a punishment*, has outraged human right activists, especially *after local authorities said she will still be caned for adultery.* . . .

In 2009, the local parliament a*dded stoning to death as a punishment for adultery* in a draft Islamic criminal code, but the then governor of the province rejected it. . . .

The Islamic criminal code adopted last February allows the sharia police to set up detention centres for suspected sharia offenders, and hold them for up to 20 days while their case is being investigated. Activists also say that *sharia police raids on hotels and cafes*, led by Banda Aceh's acting mayor - a woman - have intensified. Mazuki Ali says patrols do routine checks. “Patrols come at night, they check the hotel registry and if they suspect unmarried couples might be staying there, they check their rooms and IDs,” he says.* If couples prove to be unmarried, they're taken to the police station.*

Malaysia:

The Malaysian Constitution lists Islam as the religion of Malaysia.








> I stand by my point that terrorism is only widespread in a half-dozen Muslim countries, such as Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan of course, and I might also include Somalia, Pakistan and Libya. One could make a case for Chechenya, but that is fairly quiet these days.


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## Shaam (Oct 30, 2014)

Saigon said:


> Shaam .-
> 
> In what way did Spain under Franco NOT suffer tyranny?!
> 
> ...



Once again, just because they upheld a Christian identity doesn't mean they were acting in the name of Christ. I have read extensively about those Latin American dictators, and they never attributed doing God's will as their primary motivation.

As I mentioned earlier- Communism and Fascism are different, and cannot be retailed to one's religious disposition simply because what they're doing is morally unscupulous. In fact, this sort of discourse came about after the WOT and the surge of Islamic fundamentalism worldwide, as a means for many disingenous leftist academics to somehow rationalize the spate of violence and horrors committed in the name of Islam.


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## Saigon (Oct 30, 2014)

Shaam - 

But they DID attribute God as a major motivation, of course they did. 

I don't have time right now, but I'd be happy to provide quotes from all of the leaders mentioned which refer to God and Christianity to explain their motivation.


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## Rikurzhen (Oct 31, 2014)

Saigon said:


> Shaam -
> 
> But they DID attribute God as a major motivation, of course they did.
> 
> I don't have time right now, but I'd be happy to provide quotes from all of the leaders mentioned which refer to God and Christianity to explain their motivation.



Do you not understand the difference between a Holy War which unites an army focused on a mission of religious warfare and people making claims to please God, such as a nurse surviving Ebola claiming that it was God's will that she survived.

You're crossing into the ridiculous now, no historian classes Pinochet or the Argentinian Junta as warriors in Christ's Army who were fighting a religious war. If you have a quote of Pinochet claiming that God was with him during a particular battle, that kind of statement is no different than a woman who wins a lottery claiming it was God's intention for her to win.


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## Saigon (Oct 31, 2014)

Rik - 

You keep addressing argunents that I am not making. 

My point here is that Christianity can be perverted to mean what political leaders and terrorists wish it to mean, just as Islam can. I am not claiming that Pinochet was a jihadist.


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## Rikurzhen (Oct 31, 2014)

Saigon said:


> Rik -
> 
> You keep addressing argunents that I am not making.
> 
> My point here is that Christianity can be perverted to mean what political leaders and terrorists wish it to mean, just as Islam can. I am not claiming that Pinochet was a jihadist.



When a General tells his troops "God was with us in this battle" or "God will be with you in this battle" he's making a statement of the form "I survived being attacked by a bear because God was with me."

You're the one who is conflating mention of God with fighting a Holy War. Islamists are fight for Allah, as Allah instructed, in order to create a society based on Islamic principles.


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## Saigon (Oct 31, 2014)

Rik -

I think the point you are trying to make is that it is ok for a Christian leader to claim god leads him to kill innocent people, but not ok for a Muslim öeader to do the same thing. 

I suspect we are only a few posts away from hearing that no acts of terrorism were committed during the Spanish Civil War.


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## Saigon (Oct 31, 2014)

Rik - 

To address your earlier point, I am (again) not claiming what you thi I am claiming. I am not saying all evolving societies become liberal.  I have no idea where you get that from.

I am saying that all evolving socities move away from terror and violence as standards of living and education improve. Is that now the definition of liberalism?


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## Rikurzhen (Oct 31, 2014)

Saigon said:


> Rik -
> 
> I think the point you are trying to make is that it is ok for a Christian leader to claim god leads him to kill innocent people, but not ok for a Muslim öeader to do the same thing.
> 
> I suspect we are only a few posts away from hearing that no acts of terrorism were committed during the Spanish Civil War.



There's a difference between "Men, soldiers for God, we are about to embark on a great battle in order to bring about God's Kingdom here on Earth. You are fighting for God, you are following his command to create this new society" and "Men, let us pray that God aids us in this battle and protects us." The former goes to battle FOR God, the latter asks God for protection. The former seeks to implement God's plan, the latter doesn't claim to represent God at all.


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