# Is THIS what conservatives mean when they boast about American 'exceptionalism'?



## Bfgrn (Oct 23, 2010)

And when liberals condemn atrocities like this, is that why conservatives label us traitors and UN-American?







WikiLeaks Documents Detail Rape, Abuse, Murder






Among the details from the approximately 400,000, collected from field reports sent in by American units in the field between 2004 and 2009, and leaked to the news outlets are that:

- U.S. authorities failed to investigate hundreds of reports of abuse, torture, rape and even murder by Iraqi police and soldiers whose conduct appears to be systematic and normally unpunished.

- Americans often turned a blind eye to Iraqis being tortured and abused by other Iraqis in secret prisons.

- Iran's military - to a further extent than previously known - intervened aggressively in support of Shiite combatants, offering weapons, training and sanctuary.

- A U.S. helicopter gunship involved in a notorious Baghdad incident had previously killed Iraqi insurgents after they tried to surrender.

- According to one tabulation, there have been 100,000 civilian causalities - greater than the numbers previously made public, many of them killed by American troops but most of them were killed by other Iraqis. 

WikiLeaks Documents Detail Rape, Abuse, Murder - World Watch - CBS News

Preventive war was an invention of Hitler. Frankly, I would not even listen to anyone seriously that came and talked about such a thing.
Dwight D. Eisenhower


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## Wry Catcher (Oct 23, 2010)

Bfgrn said:


> And when liberals condemn atrocities like this, is that why conservatives label us traitors and UN-American?
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And now the echo chamber is free to shot the messenger.


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## Quantum Windbag (Oct 23, 2010)

Bfgrn said:


> And when liberals condemn atrocities like this, is that why conservatives label us traitors and UN-American?
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I knew this would come up sooner or later. Congratulations on finding the dumbest possible way to introduce the topic.


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## Bfgrn (Oct 23, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


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Yea, Hitler's atrocities came up sooner or later too you asshole.


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## PoliticalChic (Oct 23, 2010)

Bfgrn said:


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1.  Alexis de Tocqueville first wrote of America as exceptional in 1835.

2. Wall Street Journal columnist Peggy Noonan: "We are the oldest continuing democracy in the world. . . . We don't make refugees, we admit them. When the rich of the world get sick, they come here to be treated, and when their children come of age, they send them here to our universities. We have a supple political system open to reform, and a wildly diverse culture that has moments of stress but plenty of give. . . . The point is that while terrible challenges face us -- improving a sick public education system, ending the easy-money culture, rebuilding the economy -- we are building from an extraordinary, brilliant, and enduring base."

3.  In most countries in the world your fate and your identity are handed to you; in America, you determine them for yourself.  America is a country where you get to writh the script of your own life. Your life is like a blank sheet of paper, and you are the artist. This notion of being the architect of your own destiny is the incredibly powerful idea that is behind the worldwide appeal of America. Dinesh DSouza, born in India.

4. The United States is comically bad at making its own case, Maddox writes in the books opening pages. This observation will ring true to those Americans who wonder how their countrywhich welcomes more immigrants than any other, is more generous in its foreign aid than any other, and whose culture is so popularcould be loathed by so many. It will sound even more spot-on to those non-Americans, like Maddox, who consider themselves friends of the United States. For years, overseas admirers of the U.S. have had to endure witless editorials and boorish dinner companions ranting about how Uncle Sam is the root of all evil. Unfortunately, the government of the United States has failed miserably at defending itself in the court of world opinion.
Maddox makes the case for American indispensability. American values are Western values, she titles her third chapter. She stresses to her non-American readers that whatever differences they might have with America, they would do well to understand that the United States ultimately stands for individual rights, political freedom, and the free exchange of goodsall distinctly Western ideas.
CJ Mobile

5. There are those on the other side of the aisle whose main goal is to de-nude the American eagle, one feather at a time. Every twisting of language, every supposed infraction of statute, every claimed misstep, is another feather removed. 
You are imperialist, a feather gone.
You torture, another feather.
Many voted for a President who goes abroad to apologize for supposed wrongs, more feathers gone.
(author unknown)

It may just be an indication of each of our personalities, which aspects of America we each emphasis...
I have always been a happy person.
My condolences to you.


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## blu (Oct 23, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


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in terms of aid to % of GDP , we aren't even close to the most generous


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## Sallow (Oct 23, 2010)

Again..I will say that exposing this is not the issue.

Putting out real world names is..

That is what I take enormous exception to.


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## PoliticalChic (Oct 23, 2010)

blu said:


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Ah, another feather snatcher!

"We usually hear about charity in the media when there is a terrible disaster. For example, after Hurricane Katrina, we heard about the incredible outpouring of private generosity that amounted to $6 billion. What gets less attention is that *Americans routinely give that much to charity every week. Last year Americans gave $300 billion to charity.* To put this into perspective, that is almost twice what we spent on consumer electronics equipmentequipment including cell phones, iPods and DVD players.

 Americans gave three times as much to charity last year as we spent on gambling and ten times as much as we spent on professional sports. *America is by far the most charitable country in the world. There is no other country that comes close.*"
https://www.hillsdale.edu/news/imprimis/archive/issue.asp?year=2010&month=01
(emphasis mine)

And, of course, those on the right are more charitable than those on the left, who talk a good game...

Or is that the motivation for your post?


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## Bfgrn (Oct 23, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


> 1. Alexis de Tocqueville first wrote...
> 2. Wall Street Journal columnist Peggy Noonan said...
> 3. Dinesh DSouza said...
> 4. Maddox writes...
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Bluster and obfuscation PC...

It was George Orwell who said: "The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them."

It was Albert Camus who said:" It is the job of thinking people not to be on the side of the executioners."

It was Mahatma Gandhi who said: "What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans, and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty and democracy?"

It was President Eisenhower who said: "Preventive war was an invention of Hitler. Frankly, I would not even listen to anyone seriously that came and talked about such a thing."

It was President Kennedy who said: "The world knows America will never start a war"

It was President Reagan who said: "No mother would ever willingly sacrifice her sons for territorial gain, for economic advantage, for ideology."

It was General William Tecumseh Sherman who said: "It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood...War is hell."

AND THEN, It was President G.W. Bush who said: "Our nation is somewhat sad, but were angry. Theres a certain level of blood lust, but we wont let it drive our reaction. Were steady, clear-eyed and patient, but pretty soon well have to start displaying scalps."


After 7 years of hearing your 'side of the aisle' serve as cheerleaders for torture, Hirohito sneak attacks, needless killing of innocent men, women and children, pushing preventative war and wars of ideology and THEN blaming the victims, whose only crime was living under a dictator America helped install, it's time to face the realities. There are good reasons WHY so many wise men have spoken out against war and worked so hard to avoid it. War is the scourge of mankind.

I'm glad you are a 'happy person'...because all of mankind exists just to 'please' you PC. Enjoy your happiness PC, but it may be very short lived. 

Dante once said that the hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in a period of moral crisis maintain their neutrality
President John F. Kennedy


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## blu (Oct 23, 2010)

PoliticalChic said:


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foreign aid is done by the government and thats where the numbers are calculated from. your quoted material is about private donations by citizens


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## rdean (Oct 23, 2010)

The liberal side of America is "exceptional".  That's where all the technology, scientific discoveries, art and culture come from.  When other countries copy our culture, they don't copy conservative Americans.  Those people they fear, and rightly so.

Go ahead righties, call me a liar, but we both know it's true.


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## Revere (Oct 23, 2010)

Which technology and culture came from the state?


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## Revere (Oct 23, 2010)

The smartphone?  The hybrid automobile?  The flat screen TV?  Magnetic Resonance Imaging?


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## Revere (Oct 23, 2010)

Major league sports?  The motion pitcture or recording industry?


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## Revere (Oct 23, 2010)

Which of those came from the state?


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## rdean (Oct 23, 2010)

Revere said:


> Which technology and culture came from the state?



In a country such as ours, the "state" is made up of US citizens.  Even the government are other Americans, some good, some bad, but who are our neighbors VOTED into office.

Most righties think the government is actually some shadow conspiracy which is part of a world wide "secret cabal" who is waiting in the shadows to jump out and "take over'.

Many of our greatest inventions and best technology actually come from "NASA".  Much of our research in Universities is government funded.

Is it any surprise most righties don't know these these things.  They believe humans walked with dinosaurs and Noah's Ark is a "historical event".


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## Revere (Oct 23, 2010)

The state only has an aging military hardware and an abandoned space program to show for itself.  NASA stopped throwing off technology to the private sector 30 years ago.

Western wealth, consumer technology, and culture is the envy of the world.


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## Charles_Main (Oct 23, 2010)

Bfgrn said:


> And when liberals condemn atrocities like this, is that why conservatives label us traitors and UN-American?



Nobody is labeling anyone who condemns those atrocities as Traitors. Some on the right have labeled the Leaker a traitor, and under they law they may be right.

But I have not heard one single Righty Label anyone who condemns the atrocities the leaks brought to light as traitors. Just the people who violated the law and leaked the documents.


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## Sallow (Oct 23, 2010)

Revere said:


> Which technology and culture came from the state?



Just about everything.

Why the very interwebs we are on now..


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## Sunni Man (Oct 23, 2010)

rdean said:


> The liberal side of America is "exceptional".  That's where all the technology, scientific discoveries, art and culture come from.  When other countries copy our culture, they don't copy conservative Americans.  Those people they fear, and rightly so.
> 
> Go ahead righties, call me a liar, but we both know it's true.


You are right rdean; cause your hero Al Gore did invent the internet.


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## Bfgrn (Oct 23, 2010)

Sunni Man said:


> rdean said:
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Al Gore never said he did.


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## Sallow (Oct 23, 2010)

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Nope..but he made jokes about it..which was stupid.

In any case..the guys that actually did "code" the internet..gave him award for his help in getting government funding.


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## Quantum Windbag (Oct 23, 2010)

Bfgrn said:


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Congratulations, you have the Obama talking points down. Republicans = Hitler. After that no one can possibly vote Republican.


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## Quantum Windbag (Oct 23, 2010)

blu said:


> in terms of aid to % of GDP , we aren't even close to the most generous



Does your calculation include non government aid?


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## hipeter924 (Oct 23, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


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And even worse with many Democrats now raving Jew haters it's an oxymoron.


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## Bfgrn (Oct 23, 2010)

Charles_Main said:


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Tell that to Army Spc. Joseph Darby

In his farewell address at the Pentagon, Donald Rumsfeld said that the worst day of his nearly six years as secretary of Defense was the disclosure to the world of the photographs of the abuses at Abu Ghraib. Those pictures might never have been known were it not for Joseph Darby, then a specialist with the Army's 372nd Military Police Company at Guantanamo Bay. Because his moral code told him "it had to stop," Darby may never be able to return home to Maryland.

While still at Guantanamo, Darby, in fear of retaliation, slept with a gun under his pillow. The Army brought him back to the United States ahead of his unit. Back home in Cumberland, Md., the whistleblower was a pariah. The commander of the local Veterans of Foreign Wars post, Colin Engelbach, told "60 Minutes" Darby was "a rat. He was a traitor. He let his unit down, he let his fellow soldiers down."

Darby heard that in Cumberland, "my parents' friends, my grandparents' friends turned against me." His wife, Bernadette, heard people there say that her husband was "a dead man ... walking around with a bull's-eye on his head."

When he arrived at Dover Air Force base, with his wife there to meet him, the Army told Darby it wasn't safe for him to go back to Cumberland, adding: "You can probably never go home." Indeed, reported Cooper, "the Army's security assessment had concluded: 'The overall threat of criminal activity to the Darbys is imminent. A person could fire into the residence from the roadway.' "

WHERE ARE THEY?

Darby, who left the Army recently, and his wife miss their home. Their current residence is secret. "It's not fair," Bernadette Darby told the New York Daily News. "We're being punished for (his) doing the right thing."


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## Quantum Windbag (Oct 23, 2010)

rdean said:


> The liberal side of America is "exceptional".  That's where all the technology, scientific discoveries, art and culture come from.  When other countries copy our culture, they don't copy conservative Americans.  Those people they fear, and rightly so.
> 
> Go ahead righties, call me a liar, but we both know it's true.



Let me guess, you think Al Gore invented the internet.


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## Quantum Windbag (Oct 23, 2010)

Sallow said:


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Which state was that?


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## Ragnar (Oct 23, 2010)

> Is THIS what conservatives mean when they boast about American 'exceptionalism'?



No.


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## Quantum Windbag (Oct 23, 2010)

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Nope, he just created it.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnFJ8cHAlco[/ame]


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## Quantum Windbag (Oct 23, 2010)

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That was not a joke.


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## Bfgrn (Oct 23, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


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Listen you phony 'classic liberal' lying sack of shit. I was saying the same things back in 2002 and 2003, from the beginning of Bush's lying intel run-up to his Hirohito sneak attack in 2003, before anyone knew who Barack Obama was.

Condemning atrocities are not enough. It's TOO LATE. Intelligent people understand that atrocities IS the definition of war.

Yea, this is just like NOW all the 'conservatives' SAY they spoke out against Bush spending like a drunken sailor. Many, many, many more liberals than conservatives were against the immoral invasion of Iraq, Gitmo and torture.

I spent many a nights arguing with conservatives and Republicans on other message boards all during the war, I was called every name in the book, from anti-American, bleeding heart, liberal wimp, to being a traitor because I was against the invasion of Iraq, Gitmo and torture & I spoke out against atrocities that occurred. I can count on one hand the conservatives over all those years who were against the war.

Here is something I posted a number of years ago after 'Shock & Awe' and then the 'Mission accomplished' fiasco...why don't you show me how YOU spoke out you fucking windbag?
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Just shock, no awe

The people of America looked on in AWE from the comfort of their homes. 

The people of Iraq sought comfort from the SHOCK and grief of searching the rubble for remnants of their homes and loved ones! 

Americas billion dollar war machine annihilated Iraqs military; sons and fathers forced to serve under a man they had no allegiance to. But, we gave them a choice; their executioner: the US war machine or Saddam.

But even with billion dollar war machines, there are the residuals: innocent mothers, children, infants, nieces and nephews, neighbors, teachers, store owners and bus drivers. Every Iraqi lost someone they loved or knew. 

NOW Americans wonder WHY the people of Iraq didnt place flowers in the end of our rifles. We were told this would be a cakewalk and we would be welcomed as liberators!

We destroyed ANY chance of success in Iraq when we wiped out the Iraq Army. THEY WERE the trained security the government of Iraq can not provide. 

I recall the sickening images of human beings being blown to 1000 pieces by helicopter cannons. AWE!! America says. WE ARE good at this killing stuff. Americans wondered if X-BOX 360 will come out with THIS game in time for juniors Christmas.

Maybe the President can send his mother to smooth things over. "They're underprivileged anyway, so this is working very well for them"

Now a million good citizens of Iraq flee at a rate of 3,000 per day!!! (AP)

This horrible war and conditions that were BETTER under Saddam drive them from their homeland! 


Mission accomplished?

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I think its just crazy. It's part of that worldview that led us to where we are. Think about it. The United States went and negotiated with and supported Saddam Hussein himself against Iran under this notion that sometimes my enemy is my friend. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. That emboldened Saddam Hussein and allowed him to invade Kuwait. It made us go to war that we did not finish and did not take Saddam Hussein out.
Former Rep. Tom DeLay (R-Texas) 12/11/06 (The Hill)


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## hipeter924 (Oct 23, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> rdean said:
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## Charles_Main (Oct 23, 2010)

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you just confirmed what I said. Darby Leaked secret documents. Technically an act of Treason. All I said was I had not heard anyone on the right Condemn all the people who think the Atrocities exposed by the leak as Traitors. I had only heard some of them Condemn the person who violated the law to leak them.


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## Bfgrn (Oct 23, 2010)

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Why don't you try educating yourself before you condemn a man? Army Spc. Joseph Darby leaked NO secret documents.

In January 2004, Darby provided a compact disc of photographs and an anonymous note to Special Agent Tyler Pieron of the U.S. Army Criminal Investigation Command, who was stationed at Abu Ghraib Prison, triggering an investigation which led to the implication of several soldiers violating the Geneva Convention. Darby initially wanted to remain anonymous, and had been assured of anonymity  he and those implicated all served in the 372nd Military Police Company, but became known after Donald Rumsfeld publicly named him during a Senate hearing. Darby had agonized for a month beforehand, but finally decided to blow the whistle on his former friends explaining "It violated everything I personally believed in and all I'd been taught about the rules of war."


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## Quantum Windbag (Oct 23, 2010)

Bfgrn said:


> Why don't you try educating yourself before you condemn a man? Army Spc. Joseph Darby leaked NO secret documents.
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> In January 2004, Darby provided a compact disc of photographs and an anonymous note to Special Agent Tyler Pieron of the U.S. Army Criminal Investigation Command, who was stationed at Abu Ghraib Prison, triggering an investigation which led to the implication of several soldiers violating the Geneva Convention. Darby initially wanted to remain anonymous, and had been assured of anonymity  he and those implicated all served in the 372nd Military Police Company, but became known after Donald Rumsfeld publicly named him during a Senate hearing. Darby had agonized for a month beforehand, but finally decided to blow the whistle on his former friends explaining "It violated everything I personally believed in and all I'd been taught about the rules of war."



Yep.

He ratted out a bunch of cops who were breaking the law, and is a pariah because of it. He crossed the Blue Line.

Nice of you to blame this on the Army though. Being the person you are, you probably haven't educated yourself to the extent that you would know that the regular Army thinks that reserve units are their biggest problem in both Iraq and Afghanistan. The worst are the ones that are police officers in civilian life, because they are trained to think like cops instead of soldiers. Do a little research on the militarization of police before you blame the Army for what cops did.

More Militarized Than the Military - Hit & Run : Reason Magazine


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## CrusaderFrank (Oct 23, 2010)

Bfgrn said:


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Why do Progressives like John Murtha and Bfgrn call our troops "cold blooded killers" and Nazis?

Why?


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## Sallow (Oct 23, 2010)

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No..actually..he was making jokes about it..and reminding people that idiots were misquoting him. It backfired.

And flew right over the part that the people who really DID "invent" the internet, gave him an award. Whooosh.


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## CrusaderFrank (Oct 23, 2010)

Was Gore joking about discovering Love Canal, or that he was the inspiration for "Love Story"?


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## Bfgrn (Oct 23, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


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The blue line? WTF is wrong with you? What are you saying, he should adhere to some 'collectivist' code??? I guess that whole 'individual responsibility' mantra is just BULLSHIT dripping out of your mouth, eh asshole? I don't care what branch of the military it is or isn't. Those men & women represent you, me and our country. Joe Darby saw human beings being tortured and abused and the man did the RIGHT thing. You are really a scum bag, not a wind bag.


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## Bfgrn (Oct 23, 2010)

CrusaderFrank said:


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Hey Frank, do you have ANY ethics, honesty or character, or are you really as low and scurrilous as you act? I have never called our troops "cold blooded killers" or Nazis and I never will. I usually call them OUR sons & daughters, because that's what they are. I expect an apology from you.


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## blu (Oct 24, 2010)

revere said:


> which technology and culture came from the state?



the interwebs?!?!?!?! Darpa ??!?!!?!?!?


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## blu (Oct 24, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


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nope, foreign aid is calced as gov only


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## blu (Oct 24, 2010)

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he was one of the originals to push for commercializing it


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## blu (Oct 24, 2010)

"the blue line" bwhahha a bunch of collectivist pricks circle jerking


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## Quantum Windbag (Oct 24, 2010)

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So, in 1999, in the midst of an interview about why Democrats should vote for him over the other candidates for president, he made a joke about creating the internet to prove he was qualified. This is the story you expect me to believe, after I went and dug up the video of that interview?

Keep trying.


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## Quantum Windbag (Oct 24, 2010)

Bfgrn said:


> The blue line? WTF is wrong with you? What are you saying, he should adhere to some 'collectivist' code??? I guess that whole 'individual responsibility' mantra is just BULLSHIT dripping out of your mouth, eh asshole? I don't care what branch of the military it is or isn't. Those men & women represent you, me and our country. Joe Darby saw human beings being tortured and abused and the man did the RIGHT thing. You are really a scum bag, not a wind bag.



I am the guy that gets a shitload from conservatives almost every time I mention police because I think they need to be reigned in, and now I am saying that they are right to have a code where the bad cops should keep quiet.

Right.

Grow up and start acting like an adult, and people might start respecting your opinion. Keep mouthing off because people who essentially agree with you call you on your factual errors and everyone will continue to treat you like the child you portray.

Pointing out your factual errors is not supporting the people you are  attempting to dump on, it is just defending the people who did not do  what you are talking about. Or do you have a problem with not smearing  everyone with the same brush?

Go back, read my post, and point out anywhere where I spoke out against the man who reported the abuse, or even spoke up in support of the people who abused those prisoners. If you can find it I will retract what I said. If you cannot, I would like an apology. I do not expect one, but I would like one.

I will take your failure to point out where I said anything like you think I said as an admission that I did not say it, just in case you pull the typical position and refuse to mention this again.


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## Quantum Windbag (Oct 24, 2010)

blu said:


> he was one of the originals to push for commercializing it



Was he? Do you have proof of that, or are you just making stuff up to defend a position you have suddenly found indefensible?


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## Bfgrn (Oct 24, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


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*Vinton Gray "Vint" Cerf* (born June 23, 1943) is an American computer scientist who is recognized as one of the fathers of the Internet", sharing this title with American computer scientist *Bob Kahn*. His contributions have been acknowledged and lauded, repeatedly, with honorary degrees, and awards that include the National Medal of Technology, the Turing Award, the Presidential Medal of Freedom, and membership in the National Academy of Engineering.

Here is the definitive statement on Gore's involvement in "inventing" the Internet, from the guys who really did:

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Al Gore and the Internet

By Robert Kahn and Vinton Cerf

Al Gore was the first political leader to recognize the importance of the
Internet and to promote and support its development.

No one person or even small group of persons exclusively "invented" the
Internet. It is the result of many years of ongoing collaboration among
people in government and the university community.  But as the two people
who designed the basic architecture and the core protocols that make the
Internet work, we would like to acknowledge VP Gore's contributions as a
Congressman, Senator and as Vice President.  No other elected official, to
our knowledge, has made a greater contribution over a longer period of
time.

Last year the Vice President made a straightforward statement on his role.
He said: "During my service in the United States Congress I took the
initiative in creating the Internet."  We don't think, as some people have
argued, that Gore intended to claim he "invented" the Internet. Moreover,
there is no question in our minds that while serving as Senator, Gore's
initiatives had a significant and beneficial effect on the still-evolving
Internet. The fact of the matter is that Gore was talking about and
promoting the Internet long before most people were listening.  We feel it
is timely to offer our perspective.

As far back as the 1970s Congressman Gore promoted the idea of high speed
telecommunications as an engine for both economic growth and the
improvement of our educational system.   He was the first elected official
to grasp the potential of computer communications to have a broader impact
than just improving the conduct of science and scholarship. Though easily
forgotten, now, at the time this was an unproven and controversial
concept.  Our work on the Internet started in 1973 and was based on even
earlier work that took place in the mid-late 1960s. But the Internet, as
we know it today, was not deployed until 1983. When the Internet was still
in the early stages of its deployment, Congressman Gore provided
intellectual leadership by helping create the vision of the potential
benefits of high speed computing and communication.  As an example, he
sponsored hearings on how advanced technologies might be put to use in
areas like coordinating the response of government agencies to natural
disasters and other crises.

As a Senator in the 1980s Gore urged government agencies to consolidate
what at the time were several dozen different and unconnected networks
into an "Interagency Network."  Working in a bi-partisan manner with
officials in Ronald Reagan and George Bush's administrations, Gore secured
the passage of the High Performance Computing and Communications Act in
1991.  This "Gore Act" supported the National Research and Education
Network (NREN) initiative that became one of the major vehicles for the
spread of the Internet beyond the field of computer science.

As Vice President Gore promoted building the Internet both up and out, as
well as releasing the Internet from the control of the government agencies
that spawned it.  He served as the major administration proponent for
continued investment in advanced computing and networking and private
sector initiatives such as Net Day. He was and is a strong proponent of
extending access to the network to schools and libraries.  Today,
approximately 95% of our nation's schools are on the Internet. Gore
provided much-needed political support for the speedy privatization of the
Internet when the time arrived for it to become a commercially-driven
operation.

There are many factors that have contributed to the Internet's rapid
growth since the later 1980s, not the least of which has been political
support for its privatization and continued support for research in
advanced networking technology.  No one in public life has been more
intellectually engaged in helping to create the climate for a thriving
Internet than the Vice President.  Gore has been a clear champion of this
effort, both in the councils of government and with the public at large.

The Vice President deserves credit for his early recognition of the value
of high speed computing and communication and for his long-term and
consistent articulation of the potential value of the Internet to American
citizens and industry and, indeed, to the rest of the world.

Version 1.2
Word count: 709

=================================================================
Vint Cerf
WorldCom
22001 Loudoun County Parkway
Building F2, Room 4115, ATTN: Vint Cerf
Ashburn, VA 20147
Telephone (703) 886-1690
FAX (703) 886-0047


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## rdean (Oct 24, 2010)

Bfgrn said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > rdean said:
> ...



The right wing said that he did, so for them, that's evidence enough.


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## rdean (Oct 24, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



Took the "initiative" in creating the Internet is way different than "I created the Internet".

Bush "took the initiative to invade Iraq".  Does that mean that he himself actually invaded Iraq?

Took the "initiative" means he got things going.

Does everything have to be explained?


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## blu (Oct 24, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> blu said:
> 
> 
> > he was one of the originals to push for commercializing it
> ...



snopes.com: Al Gore Invented the Internet

good source to start with references


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## Quantum Windbag (Oct 24, 2010)

Bfgrn said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > blu said:
> ...



Nice of you to jump to the defense of someone else, and completely ignore the fact that I destroyed your argument. I was specifically challenging blu because he insisted that Gore did not say he created the internet. He then tried to claim Gore was only joking when he said it, despite the fact that I posted his interview with Blitzer that was completely serious. Which is why I challenged him about this, wondering if he was falling back on talking points again. Now we will never know, because you provided him with the evidence.

By the way, backing legislation written by lobbyist only counts as supporting commercialization of the internet to you because he is a Democrat. Why don't you give credit to the Republicans that signed on to the bills?


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## Quantum Windbag (Oct 24, 2010)

rdean said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > Sunni Man said:
> ...



Nope, he just created it. That in no way implies that he invented it, because only right wing wingnuts could possibly think someone who created something was saying he invented it.


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## Quantum Windbag (Oct 24, 2010)

rdean said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > Bfgrn said:
> ...



Yes, it is. It implies that he lead the whole project, when the actual truth is that he had no way to even vote on it. Or did you not know that the internet was actually conceived in France?


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## Quantum Windbag (Oct 24, 2010)

blu said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > blu said:
> ...



If you ignore their bias it is a great source. Unfortunately, I cannot ignore their bias. this particular article is a perfect example of that bias. The clarity of his statement is only obvious if you assume that he his incorrect use of language was perfectly appropriate.


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## code1211 (Oct 24, 2010)

No.


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## rdean (Oct 24, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> > Bfgrn said:
> ...



How did you get what you said out of what he said, which was, "Took the "initiative" in creating the Internet"?


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## PoliticalChic (Oct 24, 2010)

Bfgrn said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> > 1. Alexis de Tocqueville first wrote...
> ...



But it was moi who said: how eternally sad it is that folks like you, BoringFriendlessGuy, live in a country you do not love, forced by fate, upbringing, and condition, to be oblivious to the nature and exceptional postition in history of this 'shining city on the hill.'

I wonder, and, of course, you do not have to share, is it cowardice, afraid to 'take arms against a sea of troubles,' or inertia, that keeps you on these shores?


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## Bfgrn (Oct 24, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > The blue line? WTF is wrong with you? What are you saying, he should adhere to some 'collectivist' code??? I guess that whole 'individual responsibility' mantra is just BULLSHIT dripping out of your mouth, eh asshole? I don't care what branch of the military it is or isn't. Those men & women represent you, me and our country. Joe Darby saw human beings being tortured and abused and the man did the RIGHT thing. You are really a scum bag, not a wind bag.
> ...





Quantum Windbag said:


> *Yep.
> 
> He ratted out a bunch of cops who were breaking the law, and is a pariah because of it. He crossed the Blue Line.*
> 
> *Nice of you to blame this on the Army though.* Being the person you are, you probably haven't educated yourself to the extent that you would know that the regular Army thinks that reserve units are their biggest problem in both Iraq and Afghanistan. The worst are the ones that are police officers in civilian life, because they are trained to think like cops instead of soldiers. Do a little research on the militarization of police before you blame the Army for what cops did.]



Spc. Joe Darby
*United States Army*

It sure as hell looks like you are calling out Army Spc. Joe Darby, who followed the proper chain of command reporting the torture and abuse. And that Darby crossed the blue line. If that is not what you are saying then you have my apology.

BUT, I don't agree with you passing the buck here. It's an Army officer's duty to keep everyone under their command in line. If not, there is chaos, lawlessness and men & women that want to do the right thing are not safe from retribution. I believe the biggest travesty with the Abu Ghraib crimes is that no one in a command position was held responsible.

Your article about the abuses of reserve units and people who in their civilians lives were law enforcement is A) an indictment of the growing number of 'thugs with badges' we have in America and B) those abuses pale in comparison to private murderers like Blackwater, who are not bound to US law or Iraqi law. They ARE a Gestapo.


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## Quantum Windbag (Oct 24, 2010)

I missed this yesterday.

I don't want you to think you made some kind of point I could not argue with, and that is the reason I did not respond.



Bfgrn said:


> Listen you phony 'classic liberal' lying sack of shit. I was saying the same things back in 2002 and 2003, from the beginning of Bush's lying intel run-up to his Hirohito sneak attack in 2003, before anyone knew who Barack Obama was.



You know how you can tell when you are losing an argument?

When you resort to name calling and profanity.



Bfgrn said:


> Condemning atrocities are not enough. It's TOO LATE. Intelligent people understand that atrocities IS the definition of war.



Really?

Let me get this straight.

When the Nez Perce attempted to leave the country and move to Canada because the people that were invading their land where killing them, that was the definition of atrocity.

Glad to know where you stand.



Bfgrn said:


> Yea, this is just like NOW all the 'conservatives' SAY they spoke out against Bush spending like a drunken sailor. Many, many, many more liberals than conservatives were against the immoral invasion of Iraq, Gitmo and torture.



Why was it immoral? Just because you did not like it, or was it immoral because Bush lied, even though he didn't? By the way, even if it was immoral, it was both legal, and justified, under the UN imposed terms after the first Gulf War.



Bfgrn said:


> I spent many a nights arguing with conservatives and Republicans on other message boards all during the war, I was called every name in the book, from anti-American, bleeding heart, liberal wimp, to being a traitor because I was against the invasion of Iraq, Gitmo and torture & I spoke out against atrocities that occurred. I can count on one hand the conservatives over all those years who were against the war.



You need a tissue?



Bfgrn said:


> Here is something I posted a number of years ago after 'Shock & Awe' and then the 'Mission accomplished' fiasco...why don't you show me how YOU spoke out you fucking windbag?
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Just shock, no awe
> 
> ...



I could make up a quote if I wanted to, but why bother? That has absolutely nothing to do with what we are discussing.



Bfgrn said:


> I recall the sickening images of human beings being blown to 1000 pieces by helicopter cannons. AWE!! America says. WE ARE good at this killing stuff. Americans wondered if X-BOX 360 will come out with THIS game in time for junior&#8217;s Christmas.



Would you have felt better seeing videos of Saddam using chemical weapons on his own people? Is the problem here that we are so good at killing, or that he was?



Bfgrn said:


> Maybe the President can send his mother to smooth things over. "They're underprivileged anyway, so this is working very well for them"



I suppose you think that is witty.



Bfgrn said:


> Now a million good citizens of Iraq flee at a rate of 3,000 per day!!! (AP)
> 
> This horrible war and conditions that were BETTER under Saddam drive them from their homeland!
> 
> ...



Yep, they were so much better off under a government that was arbitrary, existed only to line the pockets of a single family, and routinely tortured anyone who disagreed with it.



Bfgrn said:


> I think it&#8217;s just crazy. It's part of that worldview that led us to where we are. Think about it. The United States went and negotiated with and supported Saddam Hussein himself against Iran under this notion that sometimes my enemy is my friend. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. That emboldened Saddam Hussein and allowed him to invade Kuwait. It made us go to war that we did not finish and did not take Saddam Hussein out.
> Former Rep. Tom DeLay (R-Texas) 12/11/06 (The Hill)



Maybe we should institute a dictatorship rather than being handicapped by a democracy where the foreign policy changes based on who sits in the Oval Office. Would a consistent hatred of everyone who offends you be more palatable?


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## Quantum Windbag (Oct 24, 2010)

rdean said:


> How did you get what you said out of what he said, which was, "Took the "initiative" in creating the Internet"?



I get that because I would mock Bush if he said the same thing. Since you would be the first in line for mocking Bush for this, but somehow think Gore deserves a pass, you loose.


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## Quantum Windbag (Oct 24, 2010)

Bfgrn said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > Bfgrn said:
> ...



It does?

Please spell out how you jump to that conclusion when what I am clearly doing is mocking your assertion that the Army had anything to do with this, or that any active member of the Army threatened him. I will admit that it is possible that some members of the regular Army might have had issues with what he did, but the reason he cannot go home is he ratted out cops, not soldiers.

What I am doing here, since you seem to have trouble following basic logic, is explaining what happened. I am still awaiting either an apology for you saying I oppose what he did, or support those who threatened him. Failing that, you can just run away with your tail tucked between your legs.


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## Bfgrn (Oct 24, 2010)

Quantum Windbag said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...



After reading your last two posts it is crystal clear that you are not a classic liberal. Why do you need to lie? Are you so ashamed of being a right wing authoritarian follower?

The reason Joe Darby couldn't go home is because of sickness that has overcome this country. It is similar to the sickness that permeated Germany in the 20's and 30's. It is a group of nationalists who call themselves 'patriots', but they are really enemies of America. They find ways to justify immoral wars, torture of human beings and turn on any countryman that doesn't subscribe to their sickness. You just revealed you are one of them.

Joe Darby interview

But he didn't get support back home in Cumberland, Md., a military town that felt Darby had betrayed his fellow soldiers.

The commander of the local VFW post, Colin Engelbach, told 60 Minutes what people were calling Darby.

"He was a rat. He was a traitor. He let his unit down. He let his fellow soldiers down and the U.S. military. Basically he was no good," Engelbach says.

Asked if he agrees with that, Engelbach says, "I agree that his actions that he did were no good and borderline traitor, yes."

"What he says in his defense is 'Look. Im an MP. And this is something which was illegal,'" Cooper remarks.

"Right. But do you put the enemy above your buddies? I wouldnt," Engelbach replies.

Their hometown held a vigil for members of his unit, including the accused, not however, for Joe Darby.

"These were people who knew me since I was born. These were people who were my parents' friends, my grandparents' friends that turned against me," Darby says.

To prevent any soldiers from retaliating against him in Iraq, the military sent Darby back to the states early, ahead of the rest of his unit.

"I get called into my commander's office at like ten o'clock at night. He said, 'Do you have your bags packed?' I said 'Sir, we live in a tent. I always have my bags packed.' He said 'Good. Be on the flight line. In an hour you leave,'" Darby recalls.

When Darby arrived at Dover Air Force Base, his wife Bernadette was there to meet him. He thought they would head back home, but the Army had other plans.

An officer asked Darby what he wanted to do. "I said, 'Sir, I just want to go home. I've always just wanted to go home.' He said, 'Well son, that's not an option.' He said, 'The Army Reserve has done a security assessment of the area and it's not safe for you there. You can't go home,'" Darby remembers. "'You can probably never go home.'"

"They said, 'If you had to choose, where would you want to live?' And you know basically where do you pick, you know? You've lived a whole life in one area," he says.

Asked if it seemed fair to him, Darby says, "No."

"It's not fair. That we're being punished for him doin' the right thing," his wife Bernadette adds.

The Army's security assessment of his hometown had concluded that "the overall threat of harassment or criminal activity to the Darbys is imminent. a person could fire into his residence from the roadway."

The local VFW commander told Cooper the military was right to keep Darby out of town. "Probably so. There was a lot of threats, a lotta phone calls to his wife," Engelbach remembers.

He says there was a lot of anger in Cumberland. "Cause it really did put our troops in harms way more so than they already were," Engelbach says.

Bernadette Darby says she heard people calling her husband a traitor, that he was a dead man and that he was walking around with a bull's eye on his head.

To keep Joe and Bernadette safe, the military moved them to an Army base with body guards around the clock. "I couldn't go anywhere without security. Nowhere," Darby remembers.

"Even goin' to a restaurant?" Cooper asks.

"We walk in with, me and her and six guys?" Darby says, laughing. "And all of 'em are armed."

Darby says he was protected by bodyguards for almost six months.

While he was a villain to his neighbors, he was a hero to people he had never met, including Caroline Kennedy and Sen. Ted Kennedy, who gave him a "Profile In Courage" award in honor of President John F. Kennedy.

Joe left the Army recently, and he misses it. He and Bernadette miss their hometown as well. They say they'll never move back to Cumberland. Instead they've moved on, but they are still wary.

All Darby will say is that they have started over. He doesn't want to share what he does now, where he lives or talk about his family. "I worry about the one guy who wants to get even with me," he explains. "And that one guy could hurt me and my family."
Asked if this has made him paranoid, Darby says, "To a degree."

And some relatives from both sides of the family have turned against him and his wife. 

Dante once said that the hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in a period of moral crisis maintain their neutrality
President John F. Kennedy


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## Quantum Windbag (Oct 24, 2010)

Bfgrn said:


> After reading your last two posts it is crystal clear that you are not a classic liberal. Why do you need to lie? Are you so ashamed of being a right wing authoritarian follower?



Oh no, my life is ruined. The resident expert on liberals has declared that I do not know what I believe.





Bfgrn said:


> The reason Joe Darby couldn't go home is because of sickness that has overcome this country. It is similar to the sickness that permeated Germany in the 20's and 30's. It is a group of nationalists who call themselves 'patriots', but they are really enemies of America. They find ways to justify immoral wars, torture of human beings and turn on any countryman that doesn't subscribe to their sickness. You just revealed you are one of them.



People can justify, or rationalize, anything. no one has to search for ways to do so, it is a part of human nature. Theologians have a name for this, it is called the sin nature. (Some ignorant people think it is because of original sin.) None of this surprises anyone who studies human nature, so you pretending that you have had some incredible insight is just pathetic.



Bfgrn said:


> Joe Darby interview
> 
> But he didn't get support back home in Cumberland, Md., a military town that felt Darby had betrayed his fellow soldiers.



We already talked about this. repeating the same thing over and over is a sign of weakness, and a poor debating technique. Do you think people will suddenly get a flash of insight if you say the same thing enough?



Bfgrn said:


> The commander of the local VFW post, Colin Engelbach, told 60 Minutes what people were calling Darby.
> 
> "He was a rat. He was a traitor. He let his unit down. He let his fellow soldiers down and the U.S. military. Basically he was no good," Engelbach says.
> 
> Asked if he agrees with that, Engelbach says, "I agree that his actions that he did were no good and borderline traitor, yes."



Yep, some people thought he was wrong. Do you have a new point to make, or are you just incapable of original thought?



Bfgrn said:


> "What he says in his defense is 'Look. Im an MP. And this is something which was illegal,'" Cooper remarks.
> 
> "Right. But do you put the enemy above your buddies? I wouldnt," Engelbach replies.



He is right. Unfortunately, people are self centered jerks. Why don't you do something about it besides whine?



Bfgrn said:


> Their hometown held a vigil for members of his unit, including the accused, not however, for Joe Darby.
> 
> "These were people who knew me since I was born. These were people who were my parents' friends, my grandparents' friends that turned against me," Darby says.



If the guy thought he would be a hero to his friends he was even dumber than you. Human nature, and the current culture, views ratting people out very negatively. 



Bfgrn said:


> To prevent any soldiers from retaliating against him in Iraq, the military sent Darby back to the states early, ahead of the rest of his unit.
> 
> "I get called into my commander's office at like ten o'clock at night. He said, 'Do you have your bags packed?' I said 'Sir, we live in a tent. I always have my bags packed.' He said 'Good. Be on the flight line. In an hour you leave,'" Darby recalls.
> 
> ...



Isn't it amazing how people do not want to take responsibility for their actions? Darby made a choice to do the right thing, there is a price for that. Maybe if more people did it the price would be less, but there is a price.



Bfgrn said:


> "It's not fair. That we're being punished for him doin' the right thing," his wife Bernadette adds.
> 
> The Army's security assessment of his hometown had concluded that "the overall threat of harassment or criminal activity to the Darbys is imminent. a person could fire into his residence from the roadway."
> 
> ...



Ever wonder why Kennedy did not volunteer to put his hero up in his home? Could it be because he, like you, prefer to hide behind men of principle rather than put his own life on the line?



Bfgrn said:


> Joe left the Army recently, and he misses it. He and Bernadette miss their hometown as well. They say they'll never move back to Cumberland. Instead they've moved on, but they are still wary.
> 
> All Darby will say is that they have started over. He doesn't want to share what he does now, where he lives or talk about his family. "I worry about the one guy who wants to get even with me," he explains. "And that one guy could hurt me and my family."
> Asked if this has made him paranoid, Darby says, "To a degree."
> ...



It is amazing the way you toss around quotes thinking those prove something about your character. What really proves a man's character are his actions, not the words of others. What have you personally done to make Darby's life better, and to prevent others from hurting him?


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