# Amnesty Internationa: China executed more people in 2016, than all other nations combined.



## AsianTrumpSupporter (Apr 11, 2017)

China remains world's biggest executioner — Amnesty - News

_BEIJING, China (AFP) — China executed more people in 2016 than all other nations combined, Amnesty International said Tuesday, as death penalties in the world decreased overall. 

 The human rights organisation estimates the Asian giant alone killed "thousands" of people, a figure based on examinations of court records and news reports. 

 All other countries together executed at least 1,032 people last year -- a decline of 37 per cent compared to 2015.

 China was one of four countries, including Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Iraq, that were responsible for 87 per cent of all executions last year, the activist group said.


 Amnesty's report found that hundreds of death sentences, including cases involving foreign nationals, had been omitted from China's public database of court verdicts, suggesting a concerted effort to hide the extent of the country's killings.

 The ruling Communist Party considers the death toll a state secret. 

 "China is really the only country that has such a complete regime of secrecy over executions," Amnesty's East Asia director Nicholas Bequelin said at a press conference in Hong Kong... 
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I support the death penalty here in America, but this sounds more like Stalin's murderous purges. And, as usual, it's a leftist country that lacks transparency.


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## frigidweirdo (Apr 11, 2017)

AsianTrumpSupporter said:


> China remains world's biggest executioner — Amnesty - News
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> _BEIJING, China (AFP) — China executed more people in 2016 than all other nations combined, Amnesty International said Tuesday, as death penalties in the world decreased overall.
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But then it also has the world's largest population.


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## xband (Apr 11, 2017)

People in Thailand who are executed bend over and look at the National Flower of Thailand just before the bullet is put in the back of the skull. Quick death and the last thing you see is a beautiful flower.


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## frigidweirdo (Apr 11, 2017)

AsianTrumpSupporter said:


> China remains world's biggest executioner — Amnesty - News
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> _BEIJING, China (AFP) — China executed more people in 2016 than all other nations combined, Amnesty International said Tuesday, as death penalties in the world decreased overall.
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Some perspective. 

Georgia with a population of 10 million, executed 9 people in 2016. That's 1 execution for every 1.1 million people. No one knows how many were killed in China. If 1,000 people were killed then this would be a lower rate than Georgia. If Georgia had a population the size of China's, it would have executed nearly 1,200 people in 2016.


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## shockedcanadian (Apr 11, 2017)

I'm sure all of the socialist countries will say it was "fair justice" and they had due process.  I wonder how many were executed on trumped up charges or because they had a political opinion and were courageous enough to share it?


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## frigidweirdo (Apr 11, 2017)

shockedcanadian said:


> I'm sure all of the socialist countries will say it was "fair justice" and they had due process.  I wonder how many were executed on trumped up charges or because they had a political opinion and were courageous enough to share it?



They have a tendency of executing people for white collar crimes. In the US executions are never for the political classes or the rich, they look after their own. 

I remember one case in China where a woman basically scammed people out of millions of dollars, so they executed her.


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## Correll (Apr 11, 2017)

frigidweirdo said:


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Also, there are a lot of murderers in this country that should be executed but are not.


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## martybegan (Apr 11, 2017)

frigidweirdo said:


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it's mostly because we only execute people for murder, and usually only really really bad ones, premeditated, when done in the commission of another crime, multiple (either spree or serial) or for killing cops. 

It has less to do with economic or political might and more to do with poor people just tend to murder more than rich ones. Correlation if not causation.


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## Vikrant (Apr 11, 2017)

martybegan said:


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A majority of people who are executed in China are those who voice political opinions against CCP. If the executed person was healthy, his/her organs are harvested for the benefit of Chinese oligarchs.


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## esthermoon (Apr 11, 2017)

Honestly I'm not sure China is the "world leader" in executions. 
I read Saudi Arabia excutes 100 people since January 1 2017 to this day...
Maybe Saudi Arabia executes inmates sentenced to death more than China


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## RodISHI (Apr 11, 2017)

frigidweirdo said:


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They also executed the ones that tainted the baby formula didn't they?


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## esthermoon (Apr 11, 2017)

Correll said:


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I've read some states have the death penalty but they don't use it.
For instance California is one of them...they didn't execute anybody since 2006.
And in Texas death row there is a man sentenced to death in 1976 and still waiting for execution 

rilesraymond.jpg (840×1113)


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## frigidweirdo (Apr 11, 2017)

martybegan said:


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Well, the point being that in China they will execute when people commit bad crimes to do with money. The US doesn't. Why not? Why do the politicians choose crimes that they generally don't do? Er... well... because... they're looking after their own.


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## frigidweirdo (Apr 11, 2017)

RodISHI said:


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Probably. I know of the case, but I don't know what happened to the people, but it wouldn't surprise me. However we do know that if some white collar person did such a crime, he wouldn't get executed for it in the US.


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## frigidweirdo (Apr 11, 2017)

Vikrant said:


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Do you have any evidence of this? The problem is that they do arrest such people, but records of who is getting executed isn't there.

Yes, they use organs, they "harvest" them so other people can get them. What's wrong with that? People are being executed, why not use their organs for other people?


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## esthermoon (Apr 11, 2017)

I read Chinese government neither confirm nor deny the fact they use executed prisoners' organs


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## martybegan (Apr 11, 2017)

frigidweirdo said:


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Or maybe the ultimate punishment should be reserved for the ultimate crime. We used to execute people for non-murders, cattle rustling, insurrection, etc, but besides military justice, our system reserves capital punishment only for the crime of murder.


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## frigidweirdo (Apr 11, 2017)

martybegan said:


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Well, the ultimate crime is what? Just murder? Why is murder worse than stealing millions of pounds from people? 

The point is that a country like America has capital punishment, but then criticizes China for using capital punishment. It's absurd.


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## frigidweirdo (Apr 11, 2017)

esthermoon said:


> I read Chinese government neither confirm nor deny the fact they use executed prisoners' organs



Well they do, and they've said they will stop using this practice, either last November or next November, I forget which, probably last November. But that doesn't mean they have stopped doing it.


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## Correll (Apr 11, 2017)

frigidweirdo said:


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Amnesty International does not speak for the US, and certainly not for me.


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## RodISHI (Apr 11, 2017)

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True but when those companies owners or ceo's purposely ignored a potential for death and the deaths occurred like in the peanut dudes case it should be an option.


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## martybegan (Apr 11, 2017)

frigidweirdo said:


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No it isn't. Our system spends on average a decade making sure the person to be executed did the crime.


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## yiostheoy (Apr 11, 2017)

AsianTrumpSupporter said:


> China remains world's biggest executioner — Amnesty - News
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> _BEIJING, China (AFP) — China executed more people in 2016 than all other nations combined, Amnesty International said Tuesday, as death penalties in the world decreased overall.
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The only thing this article tells us is that China executes about 300 people per year while the USA is currently only 20 per year.

We all know the US process is woefully slow and in some large states like Calif. and NYS woefully inadequate.

If you tripled the US rate as it probably should be, then China with its greater population is right on.

US population 319 million
Chinese population 1.4 billion

US ratio of population 23%.


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## yiostheoy (Apr 11, 2017)

frigidweirdo said:


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The article indicates about 300 executions in China per year for recent years.


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## yiostheoy (Apr 11, 2017)

shockedcanadian said:


> I'm sure all of the socialist countries will say it was "fair justice" and they had due process.  I wonder how many were executed on trumped up charges or because they had a political opinion and were courageous enough to share it?


Probably the same as in the USA with race being the major issue in the USA.


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## yiostheoy (Apr 11, 2017)

martybegan said:


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And not many executions at all in some large states like Calif. and NYS.


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## yiostheoy (Apr 11, 2017)

Vikrant said:


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Prove it.


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## yiostheoy (Apr 11, 2017)

esthermoon said:


> Honestly I'm not sure China is the "world leader" in executions.
> I read Saudi Arabia excutes 100 people since January 1 2017 to this day...
> Maybe Saudi Arabia executes inmates sentenced to death more than China


Actually in terms of numbers, after China follows Iran, THEN Saudi Arabia, then Iraq, then the USA, then Pakistan, then Yemen, then N.Korea, then lovely Viet Nam.

Fascinating!

Death penalty statistics, country by country


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## yiostheoy (Apr 11, 2017)

esthermoon said:


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California is the worst.  They might as well get rid of their death penalty since they do not use it.  It is a mere charade.

In terms of sheer numbers, Texas has the most, then Oklahoma next door to them, then Virginia, then Florida, then Missouri, etc.

Number of Executions by State and Region Since 1976 | Death Penalty Information Center


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## esthermoon (Apr 11, 2017)

My country executed 58 inmates in 2007...I didn't know 
Now I think executions are less than 2007 because our criminal code was amended a few years ago 
I'm not sure because they don't say all about death penalty on the television


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## BasicHumanUnit (Apr 11, 2017)

Are there really morons who actually believe China only executes 300 people per year?  Seriously?
There is no "freedom of information act" in countries like China.    There are no "human rights" organizations like we have here.
You cannot openly criticize the government in China.
But they are going to believe China when it's propaganda bureau says only 300 people a year are executed?

What part of "*Communist*" don't they understand?  Apparently NONE of it.


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## yiostheoy (Apr 11, 2017)

frigidweirdo said:


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Harvesting organs is the best idea anyone ever had.

This is the only way you can "restore" a life in exchange for having taken one.

Other than in the case of AIDS or hepatitis, this is an excellent solution to the problem of murder.  In the future I suspect more nations will do this as well.

Hearts, heart-lung, kidneys -- these all have donor value.


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## yiostheoy (Apr 11, 2017)

esthermoon said:


> I read Chinese government neither confirm nor deny the fact they use executed prisoners' organs


That's a "yes" in Communist double-speak.


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## yiostheoy (Apr 11, 2017)

martybegan said:


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People have been arguing about execution until they are blue in the face for centuries.

The history of executions goes back to Hammurabi in 1800 BCE.

Moses copied the law into his Torah (which has become part of the Jewish Tenakh) and therefore Christians think it is ordained of God.

European nations have pretty much abandoned execution.

That currently leaves the USA, China, Viet Nam, Thailand, and the Muslim nations as the primary executors today.

This is the result of arguing until you are blue in the face.

Care to begin ?!


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## yiostheoy (Apr 11, 2017)

esthermoon said:


> My country executed 58 inmates in 2007...I didn't know
> Now I think executions are less than 2007 because our criminal code was amended a few years ago
> I'm not sure because they don't say all about death penalty on the television


Viet Nam's tradition of execution derives from 150 years of war against the French, Japanese, and Americans.

Plus China is right next door and they also believe in execution.

So it is a regional cultural issue.

Thailand also executes.

Of the 3 of them, Thailand is a really big sh!t hole with murder and slavery/prostitution and dope.

Viet Nam is the most civil and progressive of the 3 of them.

China probably the most strict, in the case of drug trafficking as well -- which kills more people than any other crime but Western nations do not execute for drug crimes.


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## yiostheoy (Apr 11, 2017)

BasicHumanUnit said:


> Are there really morons who actually believe China only executes 300 people per year?  Seriously?
> There is no "freedom of information act" in countries like China.    There are no "human rights" organizations like we have here.
> You cannot openly criticize the government in China.
> But they are going to believe China when it's propaganda bureau says only 300 people a year are executed?
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Nice kitty avatar.

Ugly mind.

Ad hom.

Provide data or STFU.


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## frigidweirdo (Apr 11, 2017)

martybegan said:


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How does that respond to what I said? Either I'm not getting your twist on this, or you're not getting mine.


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## frigidweirdo (Apr 11, 2017)

yiostheoy said:


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But no one seems to know. Someone else said that it came into the thousands...


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## martybegan (Apr 11, 2017)

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you are trying to compare our Death Penalty and China's with regards to class, and the fact they they execute people for financial crimes, something which by your posting I assume you support. 

And the response is that China uses capital punishment more for political reasons than for criminal reasons. Our is used to execute murderers, theirs is more "pour encouragment les autres"


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## frigidweirdo (Apr 11, 2017)

martybegan said:


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Well, you assume wrong. 

Also I'm not sure they use it for political purposes. They might be willing to execute some politicians, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's for political purposes. Do you have any evidence to back up your claim about it being political?


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## Vikrant (Apr 11, 2017)

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Falon gong members whose only crime is spirituality get executed specifically for their organs. This is by far one of the most inhumane acts committed by any government in the world. 

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*The report says detained Falun Gong practitioners were forced to have blood tests and medical exams. Those test results were placed in a database of living organ sources so quick organ matches could be made, the authors claim.*

Report: China mass harvesting organs from prisoners - CNN.com


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## shockedcanadian (Apr 11, 2017)

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All of the whining and screaming that somehow Trump is too cozy with Russia, while China has violated the most sacred of laws in the most disturbing manner since the dawn of time, and noone says peep.

Quite frankly the lack of a principled stance by so many who claim to be defenders of human rights scares the hell out of me.


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## frigidweirdo (Apr 11, 2017)

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Well, the problem with such reports is that it is difficult to know what is going on. 

The authors claim this. No doubt there is a persecution against this group, but then you'll find evidence of people who have been arrested and gone through the system and come out the other side. Okay, if they've come out, then it's clearly not about the organs. Which members have been executed? 

Your article says that the Chinese govt takes organs from prisoners, and says that "many" of these prisoners are there for crimes of conscience. But what does that mean? So, Tim McVeigh didn't like the govt, another govt could say he was a political prisoner there for crimes of conscience. You see how that works?

Chinese Doctor Admits to Falun Gong Organ Harvest

This article would have suited you better. 

"A high-ranking retired Chinese military doctor has been caught in a phone call placed by a human rights group admitting that he used the organs of political prisoners in a joint research project with Wang Lijun, the former right-hand man to disgraced Party official Bo Xilai."

However this looks like someone who wanted to get back at Xi who hates Bo Xilai and is cracking down on anyone connected to him. 

You see the problem here? Information isn't always what it seems. What do we actually know? Not much. It's how the party wants it.


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## Vikrant (Apr 11, 2017)

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Major victims of Chinese government sponsored organ harvesting are Falun Gong members. Their only "crime" is meditation and other spiritual activities. Chinese government preys on its own people as long as the said people can be marked expendable.


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## Vikrant (Apr 11, 2017)

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It is not about what suits me. It is about raising awareness on one of the most gruesome human rights violations. That article was not for me. It was for people like you.


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## frigidweirdo (Apr 11, 2017)

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Okay, so where's the evidence?


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## frigidweirdo (Apr 11, 2017)

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The problem is you're not saying anything I don't know, you're not proving what you're claiming... you're shouting out about these violations, but you won't prove it.


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## Vikrant (Apr 11, 2017)

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Do you want certification from Chinese government? Chinese government counts on people like you who specialize in muddying the water.


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## Vikrant (Apr 11, 2017)

*Exiled Chinese Billionaire Sheds Light on Regime’s Forced Organ Harvesting*

Chinese billionaire in exile Guo Wengui broke a long period of silence this year by giving video interviews, in which he described the complex web of business and politics connecting China’s elite.

One of the most surprising revelations from Guo’s interviews, given to overseas Chinese media, is what he had to say on the subject of forced organ harvesting from Chinese prisoners of conscience—in particular from practitioners of Falun Gong, a spiritual practice that is heavily persecuted by the Chinese regime.

After describing how his now-imprisoned business rival, Li You, was able to obtain a liver for transplant without any difficulty, Guo said he made inquiries through his network in China about the source of the liver and found that it was to come from a murdered practitioner of Falun Gong (at the time of the interview, Li had not yet undergone the liver transplant).

In a tweet, Guo apologized to adherents of Falun Gong, saying that he previously thought the allegations of organ harvesting were a hoax. “But judging from Li You getting a new liver, I saw that this kind of thing is really happening! I didn’t make this clear [in the interview], so here I express my apologies to Falun Gong believers,” Guo said.

Exiled Chinese Billionaire Sheds Light on Regime's Forced Organ Harvesting


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## frigidweirdo (Apr 11, 2017)

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I want evidence. 

I could say the US govt is harvesting people's organs. Some dude who hates the US govt has come out and said this, I remember it, but I can't and won't show this is the case. You have to believe me, because, hell, this is the internet and EVERYTHING on the internet is TRUE. 

You're coming at me with not much, you're trying to make a case, and really, what do you have? You have what YOU BELIEVE. And I'm supposed to follow you because....?


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## frigidweirdo (Apr 11, 2017)

Vikrant said:


> *Exiled Chinese Billionaire Sheds Light on Regime’s Forced Organ Harvesting*
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> Chinese billionaire in exile Guo Wengui broke a long period of silence this year by giving video interviews, in which he described the complex web of business and politics connecting China’s elite.
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Okay, this guy is a source. 

When you have sources you ask the questions. 

Who? Why? etc

Someone who doesn't like the Chinese govt is saying something bad about the Chinese govt. There are many possible reasons for such a person to be saying such things. 

How does a guy who is in exile find out where organs come from in a secretive prison system? He just ran up Xi and Xi told him? 

Also, what do we have?

You have a claim about some unknown Falun Gong member who was executed. Why were they executed? Were they executed because they killed 20 people? Were they killed because they say "I love Fulan Gong"? Well, you don't know, you don't know what the claim is. 

Perhaps this guy happened to get the liver after they matched the liver with someone who was about to be executed for murder. 

Simple fact is, you don't know most of what this guy has said, you don't know why this guy said what he said, you don't know if this guy is saying the truth or making it up to hurt the govt he doesn't like because he is in exile (self imposed??? Almost certainly, the Chinese govt does not exile people, we know this because they go to Thailand to get back Chinese people accused of crimes rather than letting them rot in Thai prisons), you are taking what people want you to hear, making assumptions at every step of the way.


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## Vikrant (Apr 11, 2017)

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You are what is called intellectually bankrupt. We are communicating online. The best I can do is provide you links to credible reports that detail the crimes of Chinese government with respect to human rights violations. I have already provided you with two links. What else do you want me to come at you with? Do you want me to send you to China to see it firsthand?


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## frigidweirdo (Apr 11, 2017)

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Oh, not come out the insults. 

Okay, the best you have is not much, and yet I'm morally bankrupt because you don't have much? Right...... er...... 

What do I want you to come up with? 

Well, you know, I didn't say this would be easy. You can throw all the sources that you have and you may still not know the answer. This is my point. I will argue what is in front of me, and what you have isn't much. 

This doesn't mean the Chinese govt is doing this. This doesn't mean the Chinese govt isn't doing this. 

Yes, sometimes in life there are things you'll never know, and that sucks, but it's the way it goes. Get over it.


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## Vikrant (Apr 11, 2017)

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Where is your evidence that he dislikes Chinese government? He does not approve of Chinese government but there is no evidence that he dislikes Chinese government. Frankly, I cannot imagine any human being with fully functioning conscience approving Chinese government's blatant tortures, murders and genocides.


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## frigidweirdo (Apr 11, 2017)

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He's in exile. Why would you be in exile if you like the Chinese govt? 

No, I can't imagine that either. Nor can I imagine anyone approving of the US's foreign policy over the last 100 years or so, and yet 75% or more of Americans DO APPROVE. Beggars belief, but what you find is that there are people who will approve of bad things all the time. 

Note, I have never said I approve of torture, of executions, of genocide or any of these other things. We're not talking about what I believe, we're talking about what we know. Now genocide by the Chinese govt, well, that's not hard to prove.


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## Vikrant (Apr 11, 2017)

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US government is more transparent than Chinese government. So you get to hear about the ills of US government quite often. You do not have the same luxury about the Chinese government. 

He is in exile because he does not want to participate in inhumane ventures of Chinese government. Even if he dislikes Chinese government, that in itself does not make him less credible as long as his dislike is based on rational reasons such as Chinese government's targeting of Falun Gong members for organ harvesting.

Can you prove that his dislike is based on anything else but the crimes of Chinese government?


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## frigidweirdo (Apr 12, 2017)

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Yes, it is. That doesn't mean things don't happen that shouldn't happen. 

Bush managed to go to war with false intel, how did he do this? Well, because not everything in the US is so transparent. Lots of things happen that we don't know about. What about the Democrat worker who got killed? How did he get killed? 

There are rumors, but facts? 

How many people do you know who have been exiled, and use the term "exiled" (because I'm making a strong assumption that he's using this term himself rather than the Chinese govt) and actually like the government from the country they're exiled from?


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## Unkotare (Apr 13, 2017)

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Proof?


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## Vikrant (Apr 13, 2017)

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I did not say US government was perfect. Compared to Chinese government though, US government is embodiment of an angel. 

---

On a separate note, here is another report on Chinese government's organ harvesting:

*China’s Ugly Side: Activists Say Nation Still Harvests Prisoners’ Organs*

A local Florida newspaper reported this week that a group called Falun Gong will be protesting outside of Mar-a-Lag as Chinese President Xi Jinping meets with President Donald Trump, and referred to a “dispute” between Xi and the spiritual group.

“Dispute” is wildly inaccurate. The Chinese Communist Party, which Xi heads, has been murdering members of Falun Gong and stealing their organs, according to a 600-page report by Canadian researchers, and not always in that order: The organs are sometimes cut out while the person is still alive, according to those trying to sound alarm bells.

And the number of murders committed by Xi’s communists may be as high as 100,000 a year, according to some human-rights activists – a slaughter of human beings, one that most Americans hear almost nothing about.

Dr. Charles Lee, a Falun Gong practitioner who is now an American citizen living in New Jersey, spent three years in a Chinese prison, forced to labor every day making Homer Simpson slippers for the U.S. market. But he recounts a story worse than his forced-labor prison term.

*in 1990, when he was studying to be a doctor in China, he was once inside what he says was a mobile execution van, and waited while a doctor cut the heart out of a prisoner while the man was still alive.*

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China’s Ugly Side: Activists Say Nation Still Harvests Prisoners’ Organs


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## frigidweirdo (Apr 13, 2017)

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No, I would doubt the US is the embodiment of an angel. 

In terms of dealing with their own people, the US is better, but better doesn't necessarily mean good. You have how the US govt deals with Native Americans. However that's not really the point here.

I'm not saying the Chinese govt is in any way good. What I'm getting at is that people are willing to come on here and make accusations that they can't back up. Then later they'll go off on one about fake news, saying how bad it is.


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## Vikrant (Apr 13, 2017)

frigidweirdo said:


> Vikrant said:
> 
> 
> > frigidweirdo said:
> ...



Your dishonesty has reached its pinnacle now. I have provided you several links that clearly cite sources from China that have witnessed execution of innocent prisoners of conscience for the purpose of organ harvesting. It seems like your mind is already made-up on this subject. There is a psychology at play here: people tend to flock and identify with like minded people. It seems like you identify with Chinese regime. I do not see any other explanation for your refusal to accept the crimes of Chinese government for what they are -- crimes against humanity.


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## Vikrant (Apr 13, 2017)

Unkotare said:


> The bigot ^^^^^^^ goes ape-shit if anyone doesn't share his frothing hatred.



Act like an adult or stay out.


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## Unkotare (Apr 13, 2017)

Some people can't have a reasonable discussion because they insist their bigotry be respected. It won't, of course.


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## frigidweirdo (Apr 13, 2017)

Vikrant said:


> frigidweirdo said:
> 
> 
> > Vikrant said:
> ...



Yes, you provided sources. Sources don't always tell the truth. Sources aren't the be all and end all. You need sources to back up your claims,.

LifeZette isn't exactly the best source. It's a conservative rag. It's biased. 

Also, what it's saying isn't something that is being disputed here. We're not discussing whether China takes organs from prisoners. 
Also we're not talking about whether they're persecuting the Falon Gong. 

The issue here would be the vocab used.

"The Chinese Communist Party, which Xi heads, has been murdering members of Falun Gong and stealing their organs,"

Murdering? Is carrying out executions murder? 

Does the US murder inmates? 

Actually the language here is provocative. It's designed to make you think something bad. China has rules, and it has punishment to those crimes. Being a member of the Falun Gong is against the law. People who then practice Falon Gong are therefore breaking the law.

The issue here is whether you agree with the law or not, and whether you think the punishment fits the crime. 

The problem is this source you have is telling you not to agree with this, using manipulative language to hide this fact, and make you feel outrage. 

The fact that they say "he number of murders committed by Xi’s communists may be as high as 100,000 a year, according to some human-rights activists"

According to some? According to who? It doesn't say. It's just easier to point to the highest figures and say "some" say this. Fine, just because someone says something, doesn't make it true. Unless you're reading this article objectively, you might think that 100,000 people a year are being killed, and you'd also probably suspect that this number is just Fulan Gong, but I'd assume that this number is the number of executions across the board, but again, not data to back any of this up. Just "what people said"

"Dr. Charles Lee, a Falun Gong practitioner who is now an American citizen living in New Jersey, spent three years in a Chinese prison, forced to labor every day making Homer Simpson slippers for the U.S. market. "

Right, so, the Chinese govt is persecuting Fulan Gong. Okay. This guy went to prison for 3 years for breaking the law. Not unheard of in the US to go to prison for your political beliefs. Leonard Peltier has spend 30 something years, mostly in solitary in US prisons because of his beliefs. 
But if the Chinese govt is executing 100,000 Fulan Gong members a year and harvesting their organs, how is it that this guy was released from prison? Surely he'd have been executed and harvested. 

"in 1990, when he was studying to be a doctor in China, he was once inside what he says was a mobile execution van, and waited while a doctor cut the heart out of a prisoner while the man was still alive."

Okay, this was 1990. A lot has changed in China since 1990. 
Second, do you think this guy has a grudge against the Chinese govt? Do you think this guy is a reliable witness? Do you think he wouldn't make stuff up? Well... I'd say he's a pretty poor source, but none the less a source. But you can't just use one source to come to an opinion here. You'd need other sources, sources that aren't Falon Gong members, others who weren't prisoners of the Chinese to collaborate such stuff.

"Also testifying at the hearing was David Matas, a Canadian human-rights lawyer and co-author of a report called “Blood Harvest,” which laid out detailed evidence of a larger slaughter of Chinese citizens for their organs than anyone had previously documented."

Kilgour–Matas report - Wikipedia

The report which David Matas helped produce, was requested by the Falon Gong. So... you have your first problem here. Everything is connected to a group that the Chinese govt has as illegal, and which is fighting the Chinese govt.

"The report, based on circumstantial evidence"

Yes, it's all based on circumstantial evidence. Almost certainly every one of these cases was a person from the Falon Gong who came out of the system ALIVE. 

So the problem you have is that you're providing sources, but the sources need to be taken into the context that they are.

For you to come at me with "Your dishonesty has reached its pinnacle now." is ridiculous. I haven't been dishonest at all. I just know how to read sources, I know how to interpret what is being said to understand what I know, and what people want me to think. That's not dishonest. It would be more dishonest to start believing everything one side tells you and ignore everything the other side tells you.

I can form my own opinions of what a situation is, by looking at LOTS of evidence and coming to a conclusion. You haven't done this, you've provided a few biased sources and that's it.


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## Vikrant (Apr 14, 2017)

^

There are going to be people who will attack good souls like Gandhi. Similarly, there are going to be people who will defend monsters like Churchill who killed and tortured millions of people across Asia and Africa. It all depends on your values and what you identify yourself with. If you identify yourself with the values of the Chinese government then you are going to defend China. 

I am very well aware of the fact that there are good number of news outlets that are nothing but propaganda machines. Therefore, I cross examine any given report using various news sources and people who have first hand experience with the subject of the report. 

As far as China is concerned, there is a consistency in the human rights allegations against it. It is in the process of a continuing genocide in Tibet. It is brutally occupying and oppressing Uyghurs. It is executing Falun Gong members. I have studied in depth about China's political system of purge. 

These are all indicators of a society that has failed to instantiate basic human ideals. I am not blaming Chinese people for they are the first victims of the Chinese government. I sympathize with them. I hope that they will find courage and strength to take control of China for the betterment of China, Asia and the world at large.


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## Unkotare (Apr 14, 2017)

All bigots share in common the absolute conviction that _they_ are justified. 



Without more information about the specific cases involved, it's hard to pass judgement over a particular sentencing. Seems safe to say it is ill-advised to commit any number of crimes in China - not famous as a bastion of tolerance and forbearance.


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