# Capitalism is NOT Democratic: Democracy is NOT Capitalist



## georgephillip (Jul 28, 2021)

https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf

"Capitalism and democracy follow different logics: unequally distributed property rights on the one hand, equal civic and political rights on the other; profit oriented trade within capitalism in contrast to the search for the common good within democracy; debate, compromise and majority decision-making within democratic politics versus hierarchical decision-making by managers and capital owners.

"Capitalism is not democratic, democracy not capitalist.

"During the first postwar decades, tensions between the two were moderated through the socio-political embedding of capitalism by an interventionist tax and welfare state. 

"Yet, the financialization of capitalism since the 1980s has broken the precarious capitalist-democratic compromise."





*Reagan's tax cuts facilitated low interest rates and financial bubbles to promote US financial expansion by making real estate speculation and junk-bond corporate takeovers effectively exempt from income taxation. 

This set in motion a chain-reaction of asset price inflation that is still polarizing this economy today.

The primary mode of accumulation has become financial, enabling investment bankers to replace government planners.*


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## Rambunctious (Jul 28, 2021)

Today the USA is neither capitalist or Democratic.....


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## georgephillip (Jul 28, 2021)

Rambunctious said:


> Today the USA is neither capitalist or Democratic.....


Finance capitalism is transforming US democracy into an oligarchy, something neither Trump nor Biden has any problem with.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 28, 2021)

Capitalism is NOT Democratic: Democracy is NOT Capitalist​
And Communism is not succesful.


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## yidnar (Jul 28, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf
> 
> "Capitalism and democracy follow different logics: unequally distributed property rights on the one hand, equal civic and political rights on the other; profit oriented trade within capitalism in contrast to the search for the common good within democracy; debate, compromise and majority decision-making within democratic politics versus hierarchical decision-making by managers and capital owners.
> 
> ...


we already know that you hate capitalism ...commie !


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 28, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf
> 
> "Capitalism and democracy follow different logics: unequally distributed property rights on the one hand, equal civic and political rights on the other; profit oriented trade within capitalism in contrast to the search for the common good within democracy; debate, compromise and majority decision-making within democratic politics versus hierarchical decision-making by managers and capital owners.
> 
> ...



*Reagan's tax cuts facilitated low interest rates *

Lower taxes, lower inflation, lower interest rates. THE HUMANITY!!!!!!

*The primary mode of accumulation has become financial, enabling investment bankers to replace government planners.*

Thank goodness. Government planners suck ass.


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## Rambunctious (Jul 28, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Finance capitalism is transforming US democracy into an oligarchy, something neither Trump nor Biden has any problem with.


Well I have a problem with it....and would trust Trump to see the light before a swampy Joe will....


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## georgephillip (Jul 29, 2021)

yidnar said:


> we already know that you hate capitalism ...commie !


We already know how conservatives hate democracy




Still tired of winning?


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## georgephillip (Jul 29, 2021)

Rambunctious said:


> Well I have a problem with it....and would trust Trump to see the light before a swampy Joe will....


I also have a problem with finance capitalism turning the US into an oligarchy, but I see Trump as a corrupt crony-capitalist who found a way to cut out the venal politicians like Biden. They and their families both serve oligarchy.


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## TNHarley (Jul 29, 2021)

Fuck a Democracy. 
Fuck our corporatocracy.
What this country needs is capitalism and to abide by the Constitution.


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## DigitalDrifter (Jul 29, 2021)

Capitalism is what made America the greatest most powerful nation of all time. PERIOD!!


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## wamose (Jul 29, 2021)

Capitalism is what allowed our country to develop into the greatest country in the world. Central planning would have sentenced us to a perpetual state of poverty, shortages, distrust, no freedom and a total dependence on government followed by economic collapse and chaos. You people who would rather be a part of the "collective" should pick one of those great Marxist destinations and go there. It'll be good for your head.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 29, 2021)

georgephillip said:


>



Thank goodness you never bought any shares or participated in the capitalist system.

You can live out the rest of your poor, miserable days knowing that you're pure.


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## georgephillip (Jul 29, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *Reagan's tax cuts facilitated low interest rates *
> 
> Lower taxes, lower inflation, lower interest rates. THE HUMANITY!!!!!!


Markets that adjust themselves to debt claims growing exponentially beyond an economy's ability to pay.
Financial bubbles in multiple asset classes.
Making real estate speculation and junk-bond takeovers exempt from income taxation.




MAGA!


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 29, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Markets that adjust themselves to debt claims growing exponentially beyond an economy's ability to pay.
> Financial bubbles in multiple asset classes.
> Making real estate speculation and junk-bond takeovers exempt from income taxation.
> 
> ...



*Markets that adjust themselves to debt claims growing exponentially beyond an economy's ability to pay.*

The economy can't pay its debt? How does an economy even borrow?
What does the economy borrow from......the economy?

*Making real estate speculation and junk-bond takeovers exempt from income taxation.*

Real estate isn't taxed? Real estate income isn't taxed?
How should a junk-bond takeover be taxed? Any specifics?


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## georgephillip (Jul 29, 2021)

DigitalDrifter said:


> Capitalism is what made America the greatest most powerful nation of all time. PERIOD!!


Human labor made America.
Capitalism exploits labor by  privatizing profit and socializing cost.


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## georgephillip (Jul 29, 2021)

wamose said:


> Capitalism is what allowed our country to develop into the greatest country in the world. Central planning would have sentenced us to a perpetual state of poverty, shortages, distrust, no freedom and a total dependence on government followed by economic collapse and chaos. You people who would rather be a part of the "collective" should pick one of those great Marxist destinations and go there. It'll be good for your head.


The New Deal created the greatest middle class in history after capitalism collapsed the global economy in 1929. Central planning won both world wars in the 20th century. By early 2020 when the MAGA pandemic first began shutting down the world economy, 87 million US residents lacked adequate healthcare and 40% could not afford an unexpected $400 expense.

In the richest country in history 40 million people were poor, half of all workers lived paycheck to paycheck, and 12% of the population had experienced food insecurity at some point during the preceding year.

That's what capitalism does.
It consolidates wealth in fewer and fewer hands with each passing generation.
Only slaves call that freedom.


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## wamose (Jul 29, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The New Deal created the greatest middle class in history after capitalism collapsed the global economy in 1929. Central planning won both world wars in the 20th century. By early 2020 when the MAGA pandemic first began shutting down the world economy, 87 million US residents lacked adequate healthcare and 40% could not afford an unexpected $400 expense.
> 
> In the richest country in history 40 million people were poor, half of all workers lived paycheck to paycheck, and 12% of the population had experienced food insecurity at some point during the preceding year.
> 
> ...


Yeah, Venezuela and Cuba are much better off with their collective bullshit. Russia and NoKo too. The waiting line for Americans waiting to go to those four countries must stretch for miles.


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## Oddball (Jul 29, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf
> 
> "Capitalism and democracy follow different logics: unequally distributed property rights on the one hand, equal civic and political rights on the other; profit oriented trade within capitalism in contrast to the search for the common good within democracy; debate, compromise and majority decision-making within democratic politics versus hierarchical decision-making by managers and capital owners.
> 
> ...


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## Nostra (Jul 29, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf
> 
> "Capitalism and democracy follow different logics: unequally distributed property rights on the one hand, equal civic and political rights on the other; profit oriented trade within capitalism in contrast to the search for the common good within democracy; debate, compromise and majority decision-making within democratic politics versus hierarchical decision-making by managers and capital owners.
> 
> ...


The US isn't a Democracy, Dumbass.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 29, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> In the richest country in history 40 million people were poor, half of all workers lived paycheck to paycheck, and 12% of the population had experienced food insecurity at some point during the preceding year.



Fewer poor and hungry people under communism, eh?


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## beautress (Jul 29, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Human labor made America.
> Capitalism exploits labor by  privatizing profit and socializing cost.


Through the years I have seen laborers buy summer cabins in the mountains, and become wealthy by making wise investments, and being generous to their communities with both donations and spending time on fundraisers.

America worked well before Nancy Pelosi used her savvy to divide and threaten people better than her conniving selfishness to scream fore more power if she had to destroy this nation to get it. She has shamed her country with her tantrums and evil plots. We're sick of her crummy lies, threats, and pretentious secrecy and celebrating her evil plots with gold pen giveaways every time she succeeds in humiliating a rival with calumny her corrupt press obediently publish as truth which it is not. Her soul is uglier than the thought of Lady Macbeth of Shakespearean era.


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## georgephillip (Jul 30, 2021)

beautress said:


> America worked well before Nancy Pelosi used her savvy to divide and threaten people better than her conniving selfishness to scream fore more power if she had to destroy this nation to get it.


*When was America working well for its middle class, before or after Pelosi went to DC (1987)?*





Nancy Pelosi to Leftist NYU Student: We’re Capitalists, Deal With It

"Hill presented Pelosi with a Harvard University poll showing millennials’ distaste for capitalism. Hill, who supported Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders in the Democratic primary and voted for Jill Stein in November, then asked the former Speaker of the House whether she saw an opportunity for the Democratic Party to move left. 

"He suggested 'a more stark contrast to right-wing economics,' might be the best route for the Democrats to attract millennial voters, similar to how the Republican party moved to the ideological right after the 2008 presidential election to court large turnout among their base.

"*'I have to say, we’re capitalists, that’s just the way it is,'* Pelosi responded with a chuckle. 'However, we do think that capitalism is not necessarily meeting the needs with the income inequality that we have in our country.'"


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## georgephillip (Jul 30, 2021)

Nostra said:


> The US isn't a Democracy, Dumbass.


Thanks to MAGA, Moron




Voter suppression helped decide presidential election - The Pitt News


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## progressive hunter (Jul 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf
> 
> "Capitalism and democracy follow different logics: unequally distributed property rights on the one hand, equal civic and political rights on the other; profit oriented trade within capitalism in contrast to the search for the common good within democracy; debate, compromise and majority decision-making within democratic politics versus hierarchical decision-making by managers and capital owners.
> 
> ...


might be the reason we are not a democracy,,


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## whitehall (Jul 30, 2021)

The Founding Fathers listed the duty of the federal government in two sentences, "To provide for the common defense" "to promote the general welfare". Through the decades, self described experts (socialists?) in history and politics switched the sentences around to where it became "provide for the general welfare and promote the common defense". Democracy doesn't mean economic equality. Capitalism together with the basic freedoms guaranteed in the Bill of Rights allow anyone to pursue his/her dream of becoming rich. Playing word games with "democracy" and Capitalism" does nobody any good.


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## georgephillip (Jul 30, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Fewer poor and hungry people under communism, eh?


*Stop "thinking" like an ignorant rich-bitch.*





Capitalism threatens mass starvation


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Stop "thinking" like an ignorant rich-bitch.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Darn capitalists, with their crop failures and smallpox epidemics.......LOL!

You're funny.


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## georgephillip (Jul 30, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> might be the reason we are not a democracy,,


We're a representative democracy not an oligarchy.


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## progressive hunter (Jul 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> We're a representative democracy not an oligarchy.


sorry but youre wrong,,
we are a constitutional republic,,


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## j-mac (Jul 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf
> 
> "Capitalism and democracy follow different logics: unequally distributed property rights on the one hand, equal civic and political rights on the other; profit oriented trade within capitalism in contrast to the search for the common good within democracy; debate, compromise and majority decision-making within democratic politics versus hierarchical decision-making by managers and capital owners.
> 
> ...



This is a perfect example of why people should no longer send their kids to these institutions...They have become Socialist sympathizers...


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## j-mac (Jul 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> We're a representative democracy not an oligarchy.


Wrong again...We are a Representitive Republic....And, I don't buy for a second that you are rich at all...


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## georgephillip (Jul 30, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Darn capitalists, with their crop failures and smallpox epidemics.......LOL!


*You're still ignorant.*

Great Bengal famine of 1770 - Wikipedia

"The Company provided little mitigation either through reduced taxation or by relief efforts.[7] Other factors adding to the pressure were: grain merchants ceased offering grain advances to peasants, *but the market mechanism for exporting their grain to other regions remained in place;* the Company purchased a large proportion of the rice for its army; and the Company's private servants and their Indian Gomasthas created local monopolies of grain."


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## progressive hunter (Jul 30, 2021)

j-mac said:


> Wrong again...We are a Representitive Republic....And, I don't buy for a second that you are rich at all...


constitutional republic,, if we didnt have a constitution restricting the feds you would be right,,


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## K9Buck (Jul 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Markets that adjust themselves to debt claims growing exponentially beyond an economy's ability to pay.


Thanks to out-of-control government that spends TRILLIONS that we don't have.  That's not a fault of capitalism, that's a fault of big government, which you adore.


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## OKTexas (Jul 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf
> 
> "Capitalism and democracy follow different logics: unequally distributed property rights on the one hand, equal civic and political rights on the other; profit oriented trade within capitalism in contrast to the search for the common good within democracy; debate, compromise and majority decision-making within democratic politics versus hierarchical decision-making by managers and capital owners.
> 
> ...




Actually capitalism is the purest form of democracy, if enough people take their dollars to another company, the first will cease to exist. So go get yourself a tissue and stop reading the crap put out by Marxist academics.

.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *You're still ignorant.*
> 
> Great Bengal famine of 1770 - Wikipedia
> 
> "The Company provided little mitigation either through reduced taxation or by relief efforts.[7] Other factors adding to the pressure were: grain merchants ceased offering grain advances to peasants, *but the market mechanism for exporting their grain to other regions remained in place;* the Company purchased a large proportion of the rice for its army; and the Company's private servants and their Indian Gomasthas created local monopolies of grain."


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Markets that adjust themselves to debt claims growing exponentially beyond an economy's ability to pay.
> Financial bubbles in multiple asset classes.
> Making real estate speculation and junk-bond takeovers exempt from income taxation.
> 
> ...



*Markets that adjust themselves to debt claims growing exponentially beyond an economy's ability to pay.*

The economy can't pay its debt? How does an economy even borrow?
What does the economy borrow from......the economy?

*Making real estate speculation and junk-bond takeovers exempt from income taxation.*

Real estate isn't taxed? Real estate income isn't taxed?
How should a junk-bond takeover be taxed? Any specifics?


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## K9Buck (Jul 30, 2021)

If leftists understood economics, they wouldn't be leftists.  Leftists claim to support freedom while endorsing massive government with never-ending regulations and taxes out the wazoo on average Americans.  

In its pure form, capitalism involves a market where free people are FREE to engage in commerce together FREE of government interference.  A garage sale or a flea market is very "free-market" and "capitalistic" in that there are buyers and sellers who FREELY choose to buy and sell.  That is free-market capitalism in action and, yes, that freedom is what allowed Americans to become so prosperous.  And the left is opposed to it?  Amazing.


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## OKTexas (Jul 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The New Deal created the greatest middle class in history after capitalism collapsed the global economy in 1929. Central planning won both world wars in the 20th century. By early 2020 when the MAGA pandemic first began shutting down the world economy, 87 million US residents lacked adequate healthcare and 40% could not afford an unexpected $400 expense.
> 
> In the richest country in history 40 million people were poor, half of all workers lived paycheck to paycheck, and 12% of the population had experienced food insecurity at some point during the preceding year.
> 
> ...




No that's what stupid people do. Anyone who refuses to save for future expenses is just plain stupid. And don't pretend such expenses are really unexpected, anyone with a brain knows things will happen. Do you really think the refrigerator or car will run for ever?

.


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## georgephillip (Jul 30, 2021)

whitehall said:


> The Founding Fathers listed the duty of the federal government in two sentences, "To provide for the common defense" "to promote the general welfare". Through the decades, self described experts


How did the Founding Fathers promote or provide for Facebook, Amazon, and JP Morgan Chase?


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## Bush92 (Jul 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf
> 
> "Capitalism and democracy follow different logics: unequally distributed property rights on the one hand, equal civic and political rights on the other; profit oriented trade within capitalism in contrast to the search for the common good within democracy; debate, compromise and majority decision-making within democratic politics versus hierarchical decision-making by managers and capital owners.
> 
> ...


Capitalism is democratic. Each share you own in a company allows you 1 vote per share for who sits on the board of directors.


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## Bush92 (Jul 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How did the Founding Fathers promote or provide for Facebook, Amazon, and JP Morgan Chase?


They founded the nation that created the product lines years later.


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## OKTexas (Jul 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> We're a representative democracy not an oligarchy.




Why do you keep posting shit about Trump, he's small time compared to other wealthy Americans.

Now be honest, he's the first thing you think about when you wake and all you dreamed about all night, RIGHT? Dude there are professionals that can help with your obsession.

.


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## georgephillip (Jul 30, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> sorry but youre wrong,,
> we are a constitutional republic,,


The US is a representative democracy where our government is elected by citizens who vote for their government officials. These officials represent the citizens' ideas and concerns in their society.


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## struth (Jul 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf
> 
> "Capitalism and democracy follow different logics: unequally distributed property rights on the one hand, equal civic and political rights on the other; profit oriented trade within capitalism in contrast to the search for the common good within democracy; debate, compromise and majority decision-making within democratic politics versus hierarchical decision-making by managers and capital owners.
> 
> ...


well they are two different things all together…one is an economic system and one a Govt system.  Both promote freedom and individual rule.

So yeah they aren’t the same 

Under tyrannical leftist regimes that promote socialism there is no different Socialism is the Govt and economic system because there is no individual it’s all the state


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## Bush92 (Jul 30, 2021)

OKTexas said:


> Why do you keep posting shit about Trump, he's small time compared to other wealthy Americans.
> 
> Now be honest, he's the first thing you think about when you wake and all you dreamed about all night, RIGHT? Dude there are professionals that can help with your obsession.
> 
> .


Think he wants DJT to invest his venture capital in Georgie's real estate.


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## Bootney Lee Farnsworth (Jul 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> We already know how conservatives hate democracy
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You commies hate liberty, so to hell with your mob-rule vote to make me your slave.


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## Bootney Lee Farnsworth (Jul 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How did the Founding Fathers promote or provide for Facebook, Amazon, and JP Morgan Chase?


By kicking your dumb-fuck monarch the hell out of here and letting us govern ourselves.  Greatest day in the history of the world.


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## georgephillip (Jul 30, 2021)

j-mac said:


> This is a perfect example of why people should no longer send their kids to these institutions...They have become Socialist sympathizers...


Rich people and their useful idiots have been making that argument for thousands of years: Only a privileged few were entitled to the benefits of education. Education is the only way to understand the class war that's been going on across all those centuries.


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## j-mac (Jul 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Rich people and their useful idiots have been making that argument for thousands of years: Only a privileged few were entitled to the benefits of education. Education is the only way to understand the class war that's been going on across all those centuries.


IOW, to be indoctrinated....Our Universities are now crap because of the culture there that has become toxic to ideology....


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## task0778 (Jul 30, 2021)

_"Capitalism and democracy follow different logics: unequally distributed property rights on the one hand, equal civic and political rights on the other; profit oriented trade within capitalism in contrast to the search for the common good within democracy; debate, compromise and majority decision-making within democratic politics versus hierarchical decision-making by managers and capital owners.

"Capitalism is not democratic, democracy not capitalist._



Okay, all of this is nonsense.  Let's work through this:

_"Capitalism and democracy follow different logics: unequally distributed property rights on the one hand, equal civic and political rights on the other;

_Property rights are a function of gov't, not capitalism. Nor does capitalism have anything to do with unequal distribution of anything, the laws of supply and demand have nothing to do with equality and you get to decide what price to pay for something or to sell something. If you think the price is too high, then you don't buy it, and if you try to sell something at a price that is too high then nobody will buy it. IOW, the buyer and the seller agree on the value of what is given and received as equal value, otherwise they don't make the transaction, and there's nothing more equal than that.

_"profit oriented trade within capitalism in contrast to the search for the common good within democracy"_

I hate to break it to you, but there is no search for common good within a democracy or any other form of gov't.  Do you believe anybody in gov't (either party) is searching for the common good?  The truth is that every politician is looking out for themselves first and their party second, then they consider what's best for everybody else.  But that consideration is a ways down the list of priorities.

Capitalism OTOH is always searching for the common good because that's how you make money.  You want something that a lot of people want at a price they will pay to get it, and if successful that's how you improve the common good.  Look at the Coronavirus vaccines and how fast they were developed and made available.  THAT is capitalism at it's best, and democracy had nothing to do with it.

"_debate, compromise and majority decision-making within democratic politics versus hierarchical decision-making by managers and capital owners."_

If you think Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer, and the Biden Administration aren't making hierarchical decisions the same as the captains of industry are, then you are sadly mistaken.  And the same is true of Trump, McConnell, and the Repub leaders in the House.  They may have to make some compromises to get their caucus to agree to whatever the legislation is that they want to pass, but they ain't compromising with the Repubs unless forced to.  And vice versa.

"_Capitalism is not democratic, democracy not capitalist."_

Under capitalism nobody is forced to buy or sell something at a given price unless the fucking gov't mandates it.  The very essence of democracy is choices freely made and that is also the essence of capitalism.


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## basquebromance (Jul 30, 2021)

/THREAD


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## georgephillip (Jul 30, 2021)

j-mac said:


> Wrong again...We are a Representitive Republic....And, I don't buy for a second that you are rich at all...


You got one right.
I am not rich.
Trump is.


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## j-mac (Jul 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> You got one right.
> I am not rich.
> Trump is.


Right or wrong is not the question, Freedom is...I want freedom, you want oppression of others that don't agree with your ideology..


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## Bootney Lee Farnsworth (Jul 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Rich people and their useful idiots have been making that argument for thousands of years: Only a privileged few were entitled to the benefits of education. Education is the only way to understand the class war that's been going on across all those centuries.


Class warfare?

What class warfare?

We don't have classes in America.  We're not YOU.  We kicked you snobby motherfuckers out.  Remember?

Quit trying to start a war over nothing, you filthy little tyrant shit.


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## progressive hunter (Jul 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The US is a representative democracy where our government is elected by citizens who vote for their government officials. These officials represent the citizens' ideas and concerns in their society.


wrong again,,






						Constitutional Republic - Definition, Examples, Cases, Processes
					

Constitutional Republic defined and explained with examples. Constitutional Republic is a form of government in which representatives are elected by the people.



					legaldictionary.net


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## georgephillip (Jul 30, 2021)

K9Buck said:


> Thanks to out-of-control government that spends TRILLIONS that we don't have. That's not a fault of capitalism, that's a fault of big government, which you adore.


Markets aren't under government control; they are controlled by private for-profit corporations that have systematically ensnared the productive economy in coils of debt over the last forty years. The solution is for government to tax the rich individuals and corporations instead of borrowing TRILLION$ from them.




The State of the American Debt Slaves, Q1 2020: How Are Consumers Positioned Going into the Crisis?


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## progressive hunter (Jul 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Markets aren't under government control; they are controlled by private for-profit corporations that have systematically ensnared the productive economy in coils of debt over the last forty years. The solution is for government to tax the rich individuals and corporations instead of borrowing TRILLION$ from them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


wrong,,
all corp. are a creation of government and live by their rules,,


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## georgephillip (Jul 30, 2021)

OKTexas said:


> Actually capitalism is the purest form of democracy, if enough people take their dollars to another company, the first will cease to exist. So go get yourself a tissue and stop reading the crap put out by Marxist academics.


Actually, capitalism divides society into a pair of vastly unequal cohorts: owners and workers. So, a small minority of the population decides what to produce, where to produce it, and how to distribute any surplus. Additionally, this small percentage of society acquires undue political influence when it purchases the best government money can buy. Wherever you spend your money won't matter in the least to the oligarchs who own your capitalist politicians.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Markets aren't under government control; they are controlled by private for-profit corporations that have systematically ensnared the productive economy in coils of debt over the last forty years.



If a company that you don't own decides to borrow money, why should
productive people give a shit what you're whining about?

*The solution is for government to tax the rich individuals and corporations instead of borrowing TRILLION$ from them.*

The rich individuals and corporations already pay the vast majority of income taxes.
What amount of all income taxes collected should they pay?


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## OKTexas (Jul 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Actually, capitalism divides society into a pair of vastly unequal cohorts: owners and workers. So, a small minority of the population decides what to produce, where to produce it, and how to distribute any surplus. Additionally, this small percentage of society acquires undue political influence when it purchases the best government money can buy. Wherever you spend your money won't matter in the least to the oligarchs who own your capitalist politicians.




An employment contract is mutually agreed to. Labor is just a commodity like any other.

.


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## Bootney Lee Farnsworth (Jul 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Actually, capitalism divides society into a pair of vastly unequal cohorts: owners and workers


And that is how every economic system works.  The difference is that workers can become owners here, under free enterprise----for now.  Under your goose-stepping state-owned utopia, workers are workers forever and a hand full of elites are the only owners. 

No thanks, you commie shit.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> So, a small minority of the population decides what to produce, where to produce it, and how to distribute any surplus.



Yes. They're called owners.


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## georgephillip (Jul 31, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> View attachment 519382


*How much money did the capitalists earn from destroying Bengal?
Let's ask Chomsky:*

"There’s no doubt that imperial rule was a disaster. 

"Take India. When the British first moved into Bengal, it was one of the richest places in the world. 

"The first British merchant warriors described it as a paradise. 

*"That area is now Bangladesh and Calcutta — the very symbols of despair and hopelessness*.

A reminder towards Imperial Destruction – Noam Chomsky

"There were rich agricultural areas producing unusually fine cotton. 

"They also had advanced manufacturing, by the standards of the day. 

*"For example, an Indian firm built one of the flagships for an English admiral during the Napoleonic Wars. It wasn’t built in British factories — it was the Indians’ own manufacture*.

You can read about what happened in Adam Smith, who was writing over two hundred years ago. He deplored the deprivations that the British were carrying out in Bengal. 

"As he puts it, they first destroyed the agricultural economy and then turned 'dearth into a famine.' 




*"One way they did this was by taking the agricultural lands and turning them into poppy production (since opium was the only thing Britain could sell to China). Then there was mass starvation in Bengal."*


----------



## georgephillip (Jul 31, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> The economy can't pay its debt? How does an economy even borrow?
> What does the economy borrow from......the economy?


How does any economy grow as fast as exponential debt?




It can't.


----------



## Lakhota (Jul 31, 2021)

Capitalism depends on socialism to bail it out.  Capitalists privatize the profits and socialize the losses.


----------



## progressive hunter (Jul 31, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How does any economy grow as fast as exponential debt?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


simple,,

cut the debt,,


----------



## boedicca (Jul 31, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf
> 
> "Capitalism and democracy follow different logics: unequally distributed property rights on the one hand, equal civic and political rights on the other; profit oriented trade within capitalism in contrast to the search for the common good within democracy; debate, compromise and majority decision-making within democratic politics versus hierarchical decision-making by managers and capital owners.
> 
> ...




What a load of codswallop.

True Capitalism and Liberty go hand in hand.   Capitalism is a system of voluntary exchange of value for value. 

What we have in the U.S. these days is State Sponsored Corporatist Authoritarianism.   This is what is destroying our Liberty, including the remnants of our Republic (the U.S. is a Republic, not a (mob-rule) Democracy).


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 31, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How does any economy grow as fast as exponential debt?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*How does any economy grow as fast as exponential debt?*

Who said it does? Or that it must?

Now, what does an economy borrow from?

Is it the economy? LOL!


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 31, 2021)

Lakhota said:


> Capitalism depends on socialism to bail it out.  Capitalists privatize the profits and socialize the losses.



What bails out socialism?


----------



## Lakhota (Jul 31, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> What bails out socialism?





Toddsterpatriot said:


> What bails out socialism?



The little people who pay taxes.


----------



## Soupnazi630 (Jul 31, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf
> 
> "Capitalism and democracy follow different logics: unequally distributed property rights on the one hand, equal civic and political rights on the other; profit oriented trade within capitalism in contrast to the search for the common good within democracy; debate, compromise and majority decision-making within democratic politics versus hierarchical decision-making by managers and capital owners.
> 
> ...


Thats why the US is a republic

SWealth inequality harms no one and capitalism is the only moral exonomic system as it protects and rests on the rights of indivduals.


----------



## Soupnazi630 (Jul 31, 2021)

wamose said:


> Capitalism is what allowed our country to develop into the greatest country in the world. Central planning would have sentenced us to a perpetual state of poverty, shortages, distrust, no freedom and a total dependence on government followed by economic collapse and chaos. You people who would rather be a part of the "collective" should pick one of those great Marxist destinations and go there. It'll be good for your head.


All true


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jul 31, 2021)

Lakhota said:


> The little people who pay taxes.



So it's like capitalism, with more failure and less success.


----------



## BrokeLoser (Jul 31, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf
> 
> "Capitalism and democracy follow different logics: unequally distributed property rights on the one hand, equal civic and political rights on the other; profit oriented trade within capitalism in contrast to the search for the common good within democracy; debate, compromise and majority decision-making within democratic politics versus hierarchical decision-making by managers and capital owners.
> 
> ...


Fuck all the blurry bullshit and story telling...Cut to the chase and just say it...YOU WANT YOUR FREE SHIT!


----------



## BrokeLoser (Jul 31, 2021)

Lakhota said:


> The little people who pay taxes.


The “little people” don’t pay income taxes....nearly 50% of Americans pay nothing ...Get your pet bottom feeders contributing and the problem is solved .


----------



## the other mike (Jul 31, 2021)

If 8 years of George W Bush followed by 8 years of Barack Obama hasn't taught us the lesson Democrats and Republicans in Washington DC are the same, then we'll never learn.

Or did it teach us that it doesn't matter who's president ?


----------



## Lakhota (Aug 1, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> So it's like capitalism, with more failure and less success.



Bye...


----------



## wamose (Aug 1, 2021)

Angelo said:


> If 8 years of George W Bush followed by 8 years of Barack Obama hasn't taught us the lesson Democrats and Republicans in Washington DC are the same, then we'll never learn.
> 
> Or did it teach us that it doesn't matter who's president ?


Bush and Obama were the same. But Trump was a president for the people. That's why Bush, Obama and the rest of the establishment hate him so much. It's also why the people who aren't addicted to the MSM think he's great in spite of the fact that he's a narcissist. The real power in this country seems to insist that we elect dogshit Presidents like Bush, Obama and Biden. And in the event Harris ever sees the Presidency, the bar will be lowered even more.


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 1, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Real estate isn't taxed? Real estate income isn't taxed?
> How should a junk-bond takeover be taxed? Any specifics?








Reaganomics - Wikipedia

"Reagan lifted remaining domestic petroleum price and allocation controls on January 28, 1981,[17] and lowered the oil windfall profits tax in August 1981. 

"He ended the oil windfall profits tax in 1988.[18] During the first year of Reagan's presidency, federal income tax rates were lowered significantly with the signing of the Economic Recovery Tax Act of 1981,[19] which lowered the top marginal tax bracket from 70% to 50% and the lowest bracket from 14% to 11%. 

"This act slashed estate taxes and trimmed taxes paid by business corporations by $150 billion over a five-year period. In 1982"


----------



## struth (Aug 1, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How did the Founding Fathers promote or provide for Facebook, Amazon, and JP Morgan Chase?


via capitalism.  They would exist without it


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 1, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Reaganomics - Wikipedia
> 
> "Reagan lifted remaining domestic petroleum price and allocation controls on January 28, 1981,[17] and lowered the oil windfall profits tax in August 1981.
> 
> ...


*
"Reagan lifted remaining domestic petroleum price and allocation controls on January 28, 1981,[17] and lowered the oil windfall profits tax in August 1981.*

No more gas lines/gas shortages.
And oil and gasoline prices dropped. That was awesome!

You avoided my questions.

Real estate isn't taxed? Real estate income isn't taxed?
How should a junk-bond takeover be taxed? Any specifics?


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 1, 2021)

K9Buck said:


> In its pure form, capitalism involves a market where free people are FREE to engage in commerce together FREE of government interference. A garage sale or a flea market is very "free-market" and "capitalistic" in that there are buyers and sellers who FREELY choose to buy and sell. That is free-market capitalism in action and, yes, that freedom is what allowed Americans to become so prosperous. And the left is opposed to it? Amazing.


*Who currently controls your (mythical) free market?
Here's a hint:*

The Fed Announces Plans to Permanently Backstop Wall Street with a Standing Repo Loan Facility of $500 Billion…Starting Tomorrow

"You _really_ can’t make this stuff up. A G30 Working Group Chaired by *Tim Geithner**, the former President of the New York Fed*, that secretly sluiced $29 trillion to bail out the Wall Street banks from their hubristic collapse in 2008, released a report today calling for a Standing Repo Facility from the Fed that would be 'open to a broad range of market participants….'

"The ink was barely dry on that report when the Fed issued a press release today saying it was doing just that. 




"The Standing Repo Facility (effectively meaning that it is permanent until the Fed says otherwise) will be able to lend out $500 billion in overnight loans each day at below-market interest rates."

*Who owns the New York Fed?*


----------



## Burgermeister (Aug 1, 2021)

Well one is an economic theory and the other is a political theory so yeah, different things. Deep.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 1, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Who currently controls your (mythical) free market?
> Here's a hint:*
> 
> The Fed Announces Plans to Permanently Backstop Wall Street with a Standing Repo Loan Facility of $500 Billion…Starting Tomorrow
> ...



Is there anything worse than fully collateralized overnight loans?


----------



## K9Buck (Aug 1, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Who currently controls your (mythical) free market?
> Here's a hint:


I guess that's what I'm trying to tell you.  A truly "capitalist" market is FREE of government interference.  You dislike the market and, rather than advocating for LESS government interference, you apparently want MORE government interference.

It goes beyond that.  Ultimately, guys like you don't want individuals to be free to pursue their own prosperity.  You view individuals as subjects of the state that must do the bidding of your statist masters.


----------



## boedicca (Aug 1, 2021)




----------



## georgephillip (Aug 2, 2021)

OKTexas said:


> No that's what stupid people do. Anyone who refuses to save for future expenses is just plain stupid. And don't pretend such expenses are really unexpected, anyone with a brain knows things will happen. Do you really think the refrigerator or car will run for ever?


Do you really believe someone working multiple jobs to keep a roof over their family's head and has to purchase that refrigerator or pay for car repairs by putting the charges on their credit card has the capacity to save for inevitable "unexpected" expenses?




The State of the American Debt Slaves, Q1 2020: How Are Consumers Positioned Going into the Crisis?

The richest ten percent of Americans are strangling the majority of Americans with eternal debt.


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 2, 2021)

Bush92 said:


> Capitalism is democratic. Each share you own in a company allows you 1 vote per share for who sits on the board of directors.


*One dollar one vote is NOT democratic:*

Wealth gap grows as rising corporate profits boost stock holdings controlled by richest households

"A separate Federal Reserve report indicates the top 10% of households by net worth control 87.2% of the equities in this country at the end of the first quarter. 

"While the top 1% have always controlled 70% to 80% of stock market value since record-keeping began in 1989, this is the highest level of ownership ever, other than the fourth quarter of 2019, when it was 88.1%."


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "A separate Federal Reserve report indicates the top 10% of households by net worth control 87.2% of the equities in this country at the end of the first quarter.



Why didn't you ever buy any equities?


----------



## Deplorable Yankee (Aug 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf
> 
> "Capitalism and democracy follow different logics: unequally distributed property rights on the one hand, equal civic and political rights on the other; profit oriented trade within capitalism in contrast to the search for the common good within democracy; debate, compromise and majority decision-making within democratic politics versus hierarchical decision-making by managers and capital owners.
> 
> ...




For the 98957th time 

Capitalism is not really an ideology


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 2, 2021)

OKTexas said:


> Now be honest, he's the first thing you think about when you wake and all you dreamed about all night, RIGHT? Dude there are professionals that can help with your obsession.


Why don't you try thinking about this question: Do vast private fortunes exist in a world without eternal war and endless debt?


----------



## Nostra (Aug 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Thanks to MAGA, Moron
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nope.  Never been a Democracy, Dumbass.

Oh, and your source is a Hitlery Clinton supporter.  Even looks the part of a libtard hipster dufus.
*
Henry Glitz is a junior double major in Political Science and Economics, minoring in French and History. He is an opinions columnist for the Pitt News and a Hillary Clinton supporter in this year’s election.









						Columnist: Henry Glitz - The Pitt News
					

Henry Glitz is a junior double major in Political Science and Economics, minoring in French and History. He is an opinions columnist for the Pitt News and a Hillary Clinton supporter in this year’s election.From Henry: Pitt anomaly: Urban campus pride Pittsburgh housing occupancy limit hurts...



					pittnews.com
				



*


----------



## Nostra (Aug 2, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> sorry but youre wrong,,
> we are a constitutional republic,,


I wonder why ol georgephillip hasn't renounced his US citizenship and moved to Cuba.


----------



## LAUGHatLEFTISTS (Aug 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The New Deal created the greatest middle class in history after capitalism collapsed the global economy in 1929. Central planning won both world wars in the 20th century. By early 2020 when the MAGA pandemic first began shutting down the world economy, 87 million US residents lacked adequate healthcare and 40% could not afford an unexpected $400 expense.
> 
> In the richest country in history 40 million people were poor, half of all workers lived paycheck to paycheck, and 12% of the population had experienced food insecurity at some point during the preceding year.
> 
> ...



I read the thread title and laughed. Then I checked the author and laughed harder. Then I checked the link and it’s origins and doubled over in laughter. Then I read this post and laughed so hard I cried.


----------



## LAUGHatLEFTISTS (Aug 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Thanks to MAGA, Moron
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Hillary’s going to be pissed. Nancy and Chuckie told her it was the Russians!


----------



## LAUGHatLEFTISTS (Aug 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How did the Founding Fathers promote or provide for Facebook, Amazon, and JP Morgan Chase?


They wrote documents to keep the federal government out of the way.
Anything else I can help you with?


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 2, 2021)

struth said:


> well they are two different things all together…one is an economic system and one a Govt system. Both promote freedom and individual rule.


Capitalism divides society into two unequal cohorts: owners and employees.
Those who own the means of production determine what to produce, where to produce it, and how to distribute profits. Their stock market functions on the basis of one dollar one vote. Democracy operates on the version of one person one vote. Capitalism can function with authoritarian or representative government while democracy can not.


----------



## struth (Aug 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Capitalism divides society into two unequal cohorts: owners and employees.
> Those who own the means of production determine what to produce, where to produce it, and how to distribute profits. Their stock market functions on the basis of one dollar one vote. Democracy operates on the version of one person one vote. Capitalism can function with authoritarian or representative government while democracy can not.


um owners don’t determine what to produce or how much…demand does, demand by the people.

capitalism also allows employees them selves to become owners


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Capitalism divides society into two unequal cohorts: owners and employees.



Intelligence divides society into two unequal cohorts: smart people and morons.


----------



## bripat9643 (Aug 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Human labor made America.
> Capitalism exploits labor by  privatizing profit and socializing cost.


I'd rater be "exploited" by capitalism than have a share of the communal meal.


----------



## themirrorthief (Aug 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf
> 
> "Capitalism and democracy follow different logics: unequally distributed property rights on the one hand, equal civic and political rights on the other; profit oriented trade within capitalism in contrast to the search for the common good within democracy; debate, compromise and majority decision-making within democratic politics versus hierarchical decision-making by managers and capital owners.
> 
> ...


if you have no money you arent free to do much of anything...like eat  give me the cash and you can keep your communism


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Markets that adjust themselves to debt claims growing exponentially beyond an economy's ability to pay.
> Financial bubbles in multiple asset classes.
> Making real estate speculation and junk-bond takeovers exempt from income taxation.
> 
> ...



*Markets that adjust themselves to debt claims growing exponentially beyond an economy's ability to pay.*

The economy can't pay its debt? How does an economy even borrow?
What does the economy borrow from......the economy?

*Making real estate speculation and junk-bond takeovers exempt from income taxation.*

Real estate isn't taxed? Real estate income isn't taxed?
How should a junk-bond takeover be taxed? Any specifics?


----------



## Nostra (Aug 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Capitalism divides society into two unequal cohorts: owners and employees.
> Those who own the means of production determine what to produce, where to produce it, and how to distribute profits. Their stock market functions on the basis of one dollar one vote. Democracy operates on the version of one person one vote. Capitalism can function with authoritarian or representative government while democracy can not.


Your Socialist Utopia does that on steroids......the Political Elite, and the starving peasants.

Move to Cuba


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 2, 2021)

Bootney Lee Farnsworth said:


> By kicking your dumb-fuck monarch the hell out of here and letting us govern ourselves. Greatest day in the history of the world.


*Here's your "greatness", Cracker*




"We should understand that July 4th, 1776, in many ways, represents a counterrevolution.

"That is to say that what helped to prompt July 4th, 1776, was the perception amongst European settlers on the North American mainland that London was moving rapidly towards abolition.

*"This perception was prompted by Somerset’s case, a case decided in London in June 1772 which seemed to suggest that abolition, which not only was going to be ratified in London itself, was going to cross the Atlantic and basically sweep through the mainland, thereby jeopardizing numerous fortunes, not only based upon slavery, but the slave trade. *

"That’s the short answer."

The Counter-Revolution of 1776: Origins of the United States of America | Zinn Education Project


----------



## Tom Paine 1949 (Aug 2, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Intelligence divides society into two unequal cohorts: smart people and morons.


If that is true, which cohort to you think you and bripat9643 belong to?


----------



## LAUGHatLEFTISTS (Aug 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Here's your "greatness", Cracker*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I’m glad you’re fixation on race runs your life. You deserve it.


----------



## Tom Paine 1949 (Aug 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Do you really believe someone working multiple jobs to keep a roof over their family's head and has to purchase that refrigerator or pay for car repairs by putting the charges on their credit card has the capacity to save for inevitable "unexpected" expenses?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I’m glad to see somebody besides me reads Wolfstreet.com . It is one of the best places to educate oneself about our mad contemporary capitalism, written by a guy who really understands how the Federal Reserve system works.


----------



## Tom Paine 1949 (Aug 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Here's your "greatness", Cracker*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


On the other hand, I do NOT agree with argument that the U.S. Revolution was “a counterrevolution” inspired to any significant degree by a fear that Britain would abolish slavery. This was an argument presented by the “1619 Project” as well, and refuted by numerous excellent historians of various political persuasions, including real socialists.


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Aug 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf
> 
> "Capitalism and democracy follow different logics: unequally distributed property rights on the one hand, equal civic and political rights on the other; profit oriented trade within capitalism in contrast to the search for the common good within democracy; debate, compromise and majority decision-making within democratic politics versus hierarchical decision-making by managers and capital owners.
> 
> ...


 
Oh look, the retard Marxist is once again demonstrating his deep ignorance.

Hey retard, "Capitalism" is an economic system.  Democracy is a form of government.  You're again trying to compare cats and bulldozers, showing just how fucking stupid you are.


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Aug 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Finance capitalism is transforming US democracy into an oligarchy, something neither Trump nor Biden has any problem with.



You don't know what "capitalism" is.

You're a fucking retard.


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Aug 2, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Capitalism is NOT Democratic: Democracy is NOT Capitalist​
> And Communism is not succesful.




Capitalism is NOT Democratic: Democracy is NOT Capitalist​
*And fish are NOT planets.

Retard George has spoken.*


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 2, 2021)

Tom Paine 1949 said:


> I’m glad to see somebody besides me reads Wolfstreet.com . It is one of the best places to educate oneself about our mad contemporary capitalism, written by a guy who really understands how the Federal Reserve system works.



Maybe you can help out your buddy commie-George?
Where does the economy borrow from?


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Aug 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> I also have a problem with finance capitalism turning the US into an oligarchy, but I see Trump as a corrupt crony-capitalist who found a way to cut out the venal politicians like Biden. They and their families both serve oligarchy.



Because the Oligarchs, Zuckerberg, Cook, Soros, et al are such free market advocats..



You fucking retard.


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Aug 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Human labor made America.
> Capitalism exploits labor by  privatizing profit and socializing cost.



Hey retard George, how did it go when you went into the desert and dug holes, then filled them in? Did your labor produce everything your retarded ass needs?



Dumbfuck.


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Aug 2, 2021)

Tom Paine 1949 said:


> If that is true, which cohort to you think you and bripat9643 belong to?



The opposite of you and Retard George.


----------



## itfitzme (Aug 2, 2021)

Rambunctious said:


> Today the USA is neither capitalist or Democratic.....


"_*infecting the nation with new covid variants from the southern border."*_

Oh, is that the new b.s. you are trying to promote??



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/07/28/no-real-problem-with-coronavirus-surge-is-not-border/
		


The surge in cases is from not wearing masks and not vaccinating.

But you have to do the math, not guess.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 2, 2021)

itfitzme said:


> The surge in cases is from not wearing masks and not vaccinating.



How many of the illegals in the last year had no vaccines or masks?


----------



## itfitzme (Aug 2, 2021)

Nostra said:


> The US isn't a Democracy, Dumbass.



It's a Democratic-Republic, if you want to get all technical about it.  So, that would be a democracy where we elect representatives rather than just voting on each individual law, which would be ridiculous.  

"Pedo Joe's "Infrastructure plan" will cost $833,333 per job created....if you believe all those jobs will actually happen.....SHOVEL READY!!!"

And, you are clueless about what economics is, at the most fundamental level.  Economics is not about money. Money is a form of accounting, how we account for time spent doing something valuable.

In order to create a job, then someone must not be doing something or then a job couldn't be created.  That person not working is called an opportunity loss.  When someone starts working, then the are now producing.  Production increases over what it otherwise would have been.  How you account for that is entirely secondary. 

You are basically mixing units, trying to compare apples to oranges.  You are trying to claim that people working will cause output to go down.

On it's face, your claim complete b.s.


----------



## OKTexas (Aug 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Do you really believe someone working multiple jobs to keep a roof over their family's head and has to purchase that refrigerator or pay for car repairs by putting the charges on their credit card has the capacity to save for inevitable "unexpected" expenses?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




No they're not, give up the cable TV, cell phones, eating in restaurants and other unnecessary expenses. I've been broke before, but I've never been poor. Financial literacy is easily learned by reading a couple of books and the local library has them at no cost. BTW some idiot working multiple jobs probably doesn't have good enough credit to even get a damn credit card. They may be ignorant, but you're just plain stupid.

.


----------



## OKTexas (Aug 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Why don't you try thinking about this question: Do vast private fortunes exist in a world without eternal war and endless debt?




Short answer, YES! Some of the richest people in the US and around the world aren't defense contractors and they have nothing to do with extending credit to their customers. Any more excuses you what to make up?

BTW, if you're a broke dick, perhaps you should look in the mirror for the reasons why, I did that years ago and it worked wonders.

.


----------



## yidnar (Aug 2, 2021)

has any one else noticed how the dems are pointing out the evils of capitalism and defending socialism in the same breath ? dems are basically admitting they are socialists [communists in training] ...


----------



## OKTexas (Aug 2, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *Markets that adjust themselves to debt claims growing exponentially beyond an economy's ability to pay.*
> 
> The economy can't pay its debt? How does an economy even borrow?
> What does the economy borrow from......the economy?
> ...




Careful, you're going to hurt his little feelers when he can't explain his commie talking points.

.


----------



## bripat9643 (Aug 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Here's your "greatness", Cracker*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Communist propaganda.


----------



## Tom Paine 1949 (Aug 2, 2021)

Is “state capitalism” democratic? Can it be? Our U.S. economy, which is profoundly capitalist, is more and more dominated by finance capitalism. Having largely de-industrialized, Wall Street and the Federal Reserve is the heart of the modern American empire. Our democratic Republic is becoming less and less stable, as is much of the rest of our empire’s subordinate dependent economies.

There are in the world of course also so-called “socialist” economies like China’s. But China, where there are huge corporations and stock markets, is really better described as  “state capitalist.” It has a one-party authoritarian state, but it might as well call itself “Confucian.” It is neither “social-democratic” nor “democratic socialist.” Its “socialist” egalitarian characteristics are certainly not obvious, nor is it structured as was the “planned economy” of the USSR.

I am trying to give an intelligent outline into the reality of modern world economy, which is very complex and cannot be analyzed accurately in simple 20th century Communist/Capitalist binary Cold War terms. (However, in some ways the national economic contradictions in the world today resemble the situation of competitive capitalist powers before WWI.) I don’t expect most here to be willing to explore the issue in this or any other relatively sophisticated way. Most here are just too wrapped up in truly parochial party partisan politics.


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 3, 2021)

j-mac said:


> IOW, to be indoctrinated....Our Universities are now crap because of the culture there that has become toxic to ideology....


College provides critical thinking skills that are hard to find anywhere else.
Anyone who voted for Trump is completely indoctrinated.




How Race and Educational Attainment Factor Into Biden’s 2020 Lead - Morning Consult


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 3, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> College provides critical thinking skills that are hard to find anywhere else.



In the old days......now it kills critical thinking.


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 3, 2021)

task0778 said:


> Property rights are a function of gov't, not capitalism. Nor does capitalism have anything to do with unequal distribution of anything, the laws of supply and demand have nothing to do with equality and you get to decide what price to pay for something or to sell something.


Who determines the price of labor?

Capitalism bribes government to divide society into two grossly unequal (and unfair) groups; a miniscule minority who "own" the means of production and a majority who sell their labor. The former decide what to produce, where to produce it, and how to distribute any surplus. 

Which group gets rich from that arrangement?




Opinion | Capitalism vs. Democracy (Published 2014)


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 3, 2021)

task0778 said:


> I hate to break it to you, but there is no search for common good within a democracy or any other form of gov't. Do you believe anybody in gov't (either party) is searching for the common good?


I believe elected elites in both parties serve the richest ten percent of their voters at the expense of doing the greatest good for the greatest number. Since every one of those politicians describes themselves as capitalist, I conclude capitalism is the enemy of the common good.


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 3, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> n the old days......now it kills critical thinking.


Knock yourself out
https://online.stanford.edu/courses/sohs-xlpl-sp-language-proof-and-logic


----------



## Sunsettommy (Aug 3, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The US is a representative democracy where our government is elected by citizens who vote for their government officials. These officials represent the citizens' ideas and concerns in their society.



That is what a Republic means.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 3, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Who determines the price of labor?
> 
> Capitalism bribes government to divide society into two grossly unequal (and unfair) groups; a miniscule minority who "own" the means of production and a majority who sell their labor. The former decide what to produce, where to produce it, and how to distribute any surplus.
> 
> ...



*Who determines the price of labor?*

Supply and demand.
*
The former decide what to produce, where to produce it, and how to distribute any surplus.*

Owners get to decide. Whiners get to.....you know, whine.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 3, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Knock yourself out
> https://online.stanford.edu/courses/sohs-xlpl-sp-language-proof-and-logic



Would you have been less of a failure if you understood logic?


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 3, 2021)

task0778 said:


> Capitalism OTOH is always searching for the common good because that's how you make money. You want something that a lot of people want at a price they will pay to get it, and if successful that's how you improve the common good


Capitalism prospers by privatizing profit and socializing cost.
Company earnings are treated as the rightful property of shareholders while any "negative externalities" like poisonous air and water are treated as responsibilities that society must shoulder.




The Toll of Tobacco Around the World


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 3, 2021)

task0778 said:


> If you think Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer, and the Biden Administration aren't making hierarchical decisions the same as the captains of industry are, then you are sadly mistaken. And the same is true of Trump, McConnell, and the Repub leaders in the House.


I agree completely.
Pelosi is a good example of a progressive who went to congress in 1987 and became a big part of the problem




Nancy Pelosi Net Worth 2021 – OverallMotivation


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 3, 2021)

task0778 said:


> Under capitalism nobody is forced to buy or sell something at a given price unless the fucking gov't mandates it. The very essence of democracy is choices freely made and that is also the essence of capitalism


Under capitalism workers are forced to sell their labor or starve; it's hard to see any freedom in that.


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 3, 2021)

basquebromance said:


> /THREAD







Why Carlson’s Alliance With Hungarian Fascism Matters


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 3, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Company earnings are treated as the rightful property of shareholders while any "negative externalities" like poisonous air and water are treated as responsibilities that society must shoulder.



Who shouldered those externalities in the USSR?


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 3, 2021)

j-mac said:


> Right or wrong is not the question, Freedom is...I want freedom, you want oppression of others that don't agree with your ideology..


Is this the freedom you're seeking?


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 3, 2021)

Bootney Lee Farnsworth said:


> We don't have classes in America.








From Karl Marx to Karl Rove: “Class Warfare” in American Politics | Origins: Current Events in Historical Perspective


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 3, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Under capitalism workers are forced to sell their labor or starve;



Under communism workers are forced to donate their labor or starve. Sometimes and starve.


----------



## dblack (Aug 3, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Capitalism and democracy follow different logics



Yep. They also have different domains. In the US we use democracy for government, but freedom for markets. That's by design. Economic power and state power should remain separate.


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Aug 3, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Who determines the price of labor?
> 
> Capitalism bribes government to divide society into two grossly unequal (and unfair) groups; a miniscule minority who "own" the means of production and a majority who sell their labor. The former decide what to produce, where to produce it, and how to distribute any surplus.
> 
> ...




Even for you, that is is astoundingly fucking stupid, retard George.

Do yourself a favor; take an introduction to economics course at your local night school. At least TRY to learn what the fuck you're babbling about.


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Aug 3, 2021)

Sunsettommy said:


> That is what a Republic means.



Retard George is, well, a retard...


----------



## j-mac (Aug 4, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> College provides critical thinking skills that are hard to find anywhere else.
> Anyone who voted for Trump is completely indoctrinated.
> 
> 
> ...


No sir. Our universities and colleges today are ideological indoctrination centers. Free speech and thought is dead on their campuses…That’s a fact.


----------



## j-mac (Aug 4, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Is this the freedom you're seeking?


So you don’t like effigies?


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Aug 4, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Is this the freedom you're seeking?



That's shocking, Retard George.


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 4, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> wrong again,,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 4, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> wrong,,
> all corp. are a creation of government and live by their rules,,


Corporate lobbyists write the rules, and corporate money elects most politicians.


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 4, 2021)

Uncensored2008 said:


> Do yourself a favor; take an introduction to economics course at your local night school. At least TRY to learn what the fuck you're babbling about.


What does your economic understanding tell you about what happens to society when the rate of return on capital exceeds GDP growth over an extended period of time?




Opinion | Capitalism vs. Democracy (Published 2014)


----------



## dblack (Aug 4, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Corporate lobbyists write the rules, and corporate money elects most politicians.


So let's give government _more_ power to control the economy. The corporate lobbyists will really dig that!


----------



## JustAGuy1 (Aug 4, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> What does your economic understanding tell you about what happens to society when the rate of return on capital exceeds GDP growth over an extended period of time?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



How will you convince me to give up my money "for the greater" good? You'll need a weapon.


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 4, 2021)

OKTexas said:


> n employment contract is mutually agreed to. Labor is just a commodity like any othe


Only slaves regard human beings as commodities.


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 4, 2021)

Bootney Lee Farnsworth said:


> nd that is how every economic system works. The difference is that workers can become owners here, under free enterprise----for now. Under your goose-stepping state-owned utopia, workers are wor







At Mondragon, there are agreed-upon wage ratios between executive work and field or factory work which earns a minimum wage. These ratios range from 3:1 to 9:1 in different cooperatives and average 5:1. 

Mondragon Corporation - Wikipedia

"That is, the general manager of an average Mondragon cooperative earns no more than 5 times as much as the theoretical minimum wage paid in their cooperative. For most workers, this ratio is smaller because there are few Mondragon worker-owners that earn minimum wages, because most jobs are somewhat specialized and are classified at higher wage levels. The wage ratio of a cooperative is decided periodically by its worker-owners through a democratic vote."


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 4, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Yes. They're called owners.







Historical materialism - Wikipedia

"To Marx, ancient societies (e.g. Rome and Greece) were based on a ruling class of citizens and a class of slaves; feudalism was based on nobles and serfs; and capitalism based on the capitalist class (bourgeoisie) and the working class (proletariat)."


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 4, 2021)

Lakhota said:


> Capitalism depends on socialism to bail it out.  Capitalists privatize the profits and socialize the losses.


*Capitalism went into cardiac arrest in 2008, and is only alive today because of government:*

"Since 2008, over nine trillion dollars in created money has been printed and pumped into the near lifeless body of capitalist economies in the U.S., EU, Japan, China and other countries to stave off economic despair. 

"Why? 

"Because the capitalist system had a heart attack in 2008 and was about to writhe in agony on the floors of global stock exchanges. 

*"Government bailouts of the banks, i.e., socialism, was the only way to keep the streets clear from flowing blood. *

"ATMs needed to remain open so that the world as we know it would continue operating."

Attention Socialists: Capitalism Is Currently on Life Support!


----------



## dblack (Aug 4, 2021)

Life will be so much easier when government controls every-fucking-thing.


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 4, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> simple,,
> 
> cut the debt,,


Public debt or private debt?
Both?




https://www.lexingtonlaw.com/blog/news/debt-jubilee.html


----------



## progressive hunter (Aug 4, 2021)

georgephillip said:


>


oh look,, you got a picture with pretty colors,,


----------



## progressive hunter (Aug 4, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Public debt or private debt?
> Both?
> 
> 
> ...


what about the people/countries the debt is owed to??


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 4, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> What does your economic understanding tell you about what happens to society when the rate of return on capital exceeds GDP growth over an extended period of time?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*What does your economic understanding tell you about what happens to society when the rate of return on capital exceeds GDP growth over an extended period of time?*

That Piketty is full of shit.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 4, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Capitalism went into cardiac arrest in 2008, and is only alive today because of government:*
> 
> "Since 2008, over nine trillion dollars in created money has been printed and pumped into the near lifeless body of capitalist economies in the U.S., EU, Japan, China and other countries to stave off economic despair.
> 
> ...



_What sober-minded people need to realize is that capitalists can and will build a machine that self-destructs. No need to pull the plug or throw a wrench in it._

And communists can't even build a machine.......


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Aug 4, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Only slaves regard human beings as commodities.



Socialism and Communism is all about enslaving the vast majority of the population. Socialism views people as parts in the machine of the state, disposable and with no intrinsic worth.


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Aug 4, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> What does your economic understanding tell you about what happens to society when the rate of return on capital exceeds GDP growth over an extended period of time?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The irony of a Marxist sending me to a Nazi site that is behind a pay wall.


----------



## OKTexas (Aug 4, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Only slaves regard human beings as commodities.




Learn the damn language you incompetent commie asshole, labor is what a person's effort produces, not what they are. Sounds to me it's you with a slave mentality.

.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 4, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Historical materialism - Wikipedia
> 
> "To Marx, ancient societies (e.g. Rome and Greece) were based on a ruling class of citizens and a class of slaves; feudalism was based on nobles and serfs; and capitalism based on the capitalist class (bourgeoisie) and the working class (proletariat)."



Marx was a whiney failure.....I see why you like him.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 4, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "ATMs needed to remain open so that the world as we know it would continue operating."



The poor and middle class do so much better when the banks fail, eh comrade?


----------



## Tom Paine 1949 (Aug 4, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Capitalism went into cardiac arrest in 2008, and is only alive today because of government:*
> 
> "Since 2008, over nine trillion dollars in created money has been printed and pumped into the near lifeless body of capitalist economies in the U.S., EU, Japan, China and other countries to stave off economic despair.
> 
> ...


Let us ignore for a moment those here who think all criticism of capitalism is wrongheaded, who instinctually criticize those of us who call ourselves “democratic socialists” or “social democrats.” Some of the crazier ones even call the pro-imperialist, pro-Wall Street corporate DNC … “communist”!

I want to raise more serious criticisms….

When I look at your quotes above and the linked article, my reaction is …. *I’m afraid it’s not quite that simple.*

The trillions in fiat money “pumped into the system” reinforces _*capitalist*_ relations. Stock market assets grow, the rich get richer, while those without financial assets get more wretched. This is _not_ socialism. Probably you mean something like “‘socialism’ for the corporations and capitalists” — but then you should make this much clearer.

Capitalism can suffer many crisis, can even “collapse” (it’s happened many times before) — but it always recovers. It will _not_ by itself transform into a socialist or any other utopia.

The crisis of competing capitalist states and alliances tends to world war, not to a socialistic “New World Order” — which is what many lunatics on the right claim has already occurred.

Finally, it is very possible environmental catastrophe, like world war or just a new Cold War leading to “endless proxy wars,” will dramatically accelerate human suffering. Socialism is supposed to be genuinely _international — _unlike “national socialism” — also know as Nazism or “the socialism of fools.”

Democratic socialists, social democrats, indeed everybody who thinks seriously about the problems that confront humanity, would do well to consider these sad realities.


----------



## progressive hunter (Aug 4, 2021)

Tom Paine 1949 said:


> Let us ignore for a moment those here who think all criticism of capitalism is wrongheaded, who instinctually criticize those of us who call ourselves “democratic socialists” or “social democrats.” Some of the crazier ones even call the pro-imperialist, pro-Wall Street corporate DNC … “communist”!
> 
> I want to raise more serious criticisms….
> 
> ...


as expected,, youre confusing cronyism with capitalism,,

cronyism fails and capitalism will always exist and cant be stopped as long as there are two [people,,


----------



## Tom Paine 1949 (Aug 4, 2021)

“Crony capitalism” is not a bad term.

But you cannot seriously distinguish it from _real existing, historically created American capitalism_, which now is centered in Wall Street and the Federal Reserve and the D.C. “Security State.” There are not just a few “cronies.” There is a whole organic imperialist system which extends throughout society, that permeates and has supporters also among the middle and professional and working classes to one extent or another. “It” is definitely not loyal or limited to any one party, either.


----------



## progressive hunter (Aug 4, 2021)

Tom Paine 1949 said:


> “Crony capitalism” is not a bad term.
> 
> But you cannot seriously distinguish it from _real existing, historically created American capitalism_, which now is centered in Wall Street and the Federal Reserve and the D.C. “Security State.” There are not just a few “cronies.” There is a whole organic imperialist system which extends throughout society, that permeates and has supporters also among the middle and professional and working classes to one extent or another. “It” is definitely not loyal or limited to any one party, either.


let me guess,,

you went to college,,,


----------



## Tom Paine 1949 (Aug 4, 2021)

Is education something you despise?

In fact at 72 years of age, a lifelong blue collar wage worker, once an active unionist, I consider myself blessed to have also seen a bit of the wider world, to have suffered some life experiences that taught me a thing or two. I try to think outside of the box …

How about you?


----------



## progressive hunter (Aug 4, 2021)

Tom Paine 1949 said:


> Is education something you despise?
> 
> In fact at 72 years of age, a lifelong blue collar wage worker, once an active unionist, I consider myself blessed to have also seen a bit of the wider world, to have suffered some life experiences that taught me a thing or two. I try to think outside of the box …
> 
> How about you?


depending on what youre being taught education is a good thing,,

as for your view on capitalism,, well it needs some work,, that or youve been reading to much marx,,


----------



## Tom Paine 1949 (Aug 4, 2021)

What sort of work do you suggest I do on my “view of capitalism”? Walk the streets of our decaying cities? Done that. I even worked _under_ those streets. Travel to the third world, Europe, China? Check.

Frankly I might agree with you that I’ve read too damn much about “the dismal science.” Not just Marx, but also the great Adam Smith and many other more modern economists as well.

What is to be done, “ProgressiveHunter,” about this new system (or thing) you call … “cronyism”? Can you describe it in a few sentences, or in a paragraph or two?


----------



## Pellinore (Aug 4, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> In the old days......now it kills critical thinking.


I promise you, from first-person knowledge: It does not.


----------



## Pellinore (Aug 4, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Why Carlson’s Alliance With Hungarian Fascism Matters


This story should get a LOT more coverage than it does.  Orban is a vicious, extremist autocrat who is stamping out the democracy in his own nation in plain sight, and our supposedly-conservative popular leaders are crawling around his feet. 

He stripped away Hungary's judicial review, then REWROTE THEIR CONSTITUTION to keep him in power.  That's what Carlson is sidling up to.  

Don't do it, Tucker.  Not even you are to Orban's level.  Go schedule another interview with James Woods, or something.


----------



## Rigby5 (Aug 4, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> _What sober-minded people need to realize is that capitalists can and will build a machine that self-destructs. No need to pull the plug or throw a wrench in it._
> 
> And communists can't even build a machine.......



Nah, communism is always better at allocating resources because it can properly prioritize.
When you have greed as the motivation, there is no cooperation even within the same company.
For example, NASA or the internet.
You could never have done those privately with a profit motive, because they do not have a payoff for a very long time, if ever.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 5, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Nah, communism is always better at allocating resources because it can properly prioritize.



Absolutely.
That's why East Germany made Trabants while West Germany made BMWs and Benzs.

*When you have greed as the motivation, there is no cooperation even within the same company.*

That's why the Soviet Union had a bigger GDP than the US, cooperation, eh?

*For example, NASA or the internet.*

Or Chernobyl.........


----------



## Rigby5 (Aug 5, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Absolutely.
> That's why East Germany made Trabants while West Germany made BMWs and Benzs.
> 
> *When you have greed as the motivation, there is no cooperation even within the same company.*
> ...



I tend to think the Trabant was the better car.
It lasted pretty much forever and was very inexpensive.
BMW cars are likely the single least practical cars in the entire world.
Although I do like Mercedes.
You do realize the flying car on "Harry Potter" is a Trabant?
It is famous.

The GDP is not necessarily the proper goal of any country, but the USSR had a very hard climate and resources to deal with.
The USSR likely had the greatest advancement of any country, from feudal state to world leader in a couple of decades.

Chernobyl was a combination of being cheap so using graphite moderator instead of heavy water, and and not keeping staff up to training.
A combination of mistakes that is bound to happen eventually, and the US has similar mistakes.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 5, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> I tend to think the Trabant was the better car.



Yeah, that's a deep thought.

*It lasted pretty much forever and was very inexpensive.*

And only a 10 year waiting list.

*You do realize the flying car on "Harry Potter" is a Trabant?*

You do realize that is fiction? Just like "successful commie country" is fiction.

*The GDP is not necessarily the proper goal of any country,*

Sounds like something a shithole commie country would say.
One that was really bad at allocating resources.

* but the USSR had a very hard climate and resources to deal with.*

Poor Russia, largest country in the world.

*Chernobyl was a combination of being cheap so using graphite moderator instead of heavy water, and and not keeping staff up to training.*

And no containment building.
Thank goodness they didn't need to worry about making a profit......DURR

*The USSR likely had the greatest advancement of any country, from feudal state to world leader in a couple of decades.*

And all they needed was 30 million dead.....


----------



## Rigby5 (Aug 5, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Yeah, that's a deep thought.
> 
> *It lasted pretty much forever and was very inexpensive.*
> 
> ...



Thirty million dead was what the USSR lost in WWII.  They started with about 100 million population.  So I am doubtful of your number. 
I read the famine of 1932 killed about 5 million.  But the USSR is not communism, but state capitalism.  
The farmers knew better, but Lyseko was in charge of the farms, which is not how communism works.  Communism can't be centralized.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 5, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Thirty million dead was what the USSR lost in WWII.



I seem to remember them losing that many due to their commie masters.
*
They started with about 100 million population.*

In what year?

*I read the famine of 1932 killed about 5 million. But the USSR is not communism, but state capitalism.*

A commie failure by any other name.


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 5, 2021)

boedicca said:


> What we have in the U.S. these days is State Sponsored Corporatist Authoritarianism. This is what is destroying our Liberty, including the remnants of our Republic (the U.S. is a Republic, not a (mob-rule) Democracy).


*One big part of that authoritarianism you're so rightly concerned about (imho) is becoming known as surveillance capitalism:*

Harvard professor says surveillance capitalism is undermining democracy

"I define surveillance capitalism as the unilateral claiming of private human experience as free raw material for translation into behavioral data. 

"*These data are then computed and packaged as prediction products and sold into behavioral futures markets* — business customers with a commercial interest in knowing what we will do now, soon, and later. 

"It was Google that first learned how to capture surplus behavioral data, more than what they needed for services, and used it to compute prediction products that they could sell to their business customers, in this case advertisers."

*"Behavioral futures markets" aren't being designed to advance liberty, democracy, or a republican form of government.*


----------



## boedicca (Aug 5, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *One big part of that authoritarianism you're so rightly concerned about (imho) is becoming known as surveillance capitalism:*
> 
> Harvard professor says surveillance capitalism is undermining democracy
> 
> ...




Yes, I've read Zuboff's book and have seen her interviewed a few times.   What she has warned us about is getting worse.


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 5, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *How does any economy grow as fast as exponential debt?*
> 
> Who said it does? Or that it must?


Economies that can't grow fast enough to pay their debts don't survive without government welfare.




Some follow-up notes on Thomas Piketty's "Capital in the 21st Century"


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 5, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Now, what does an economy borrow from?
> 
> Is it the economy? LOL!


Is it rich people the government borrows from instead of taxing their private wealth?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 5, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Economies that can't grow fast enough to pay their debts don't survive without government welfare.



You never explained, what does an economy borrow from?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 5, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Is it rich people the government borrows from instead of taxing their private wealth?



Why are you conflating "government debt" with "economy debt"?
Will the government be unable to repay? Why?


----------



## Soupnazi630 (Aug 5, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Under capitalism workers are forced to sell their labor or starve; it's hard to see any freedom in that.


Yes that is true. The fact is all humans ( or any other organism ) must work or starve.

Capitalism gives you the freedom to work OR starve. Collectivists systems enslave you to work AND starve.


----------



## dblack (Aug 5, 2021)

Sitting at core of the socialist mindset is a fixation on democracy - the idea that anything and everything should be decided by majority rule. That's my main beef with socialism. 

In my view, democracy is a terrible way to make decisions. It should be our last resort, not our first choice.


----------



## kaz (Aug 5, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf
> 
> "Capitalism and democracy follow different logics: unequally distributed property rights on the one hand, equal civic and political rights on the other; profit oriented trade within capitalism in contrast to the search for the common good within democracy; debate, compromise and majority decision-making within democratic politics versus hierarchical decision-making by managers and capital owners.
> 
> ...



No, capitalism isn't tyranny of the majority. It's individual choice


----------



## CowboyTed (Aug 5, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *Reagan's tax cuts facilitated low interest rates *
> 
> Lower taxes, lower inflation, lower interest rates. THE HUMANITY!!!!!!
> 
> ...


Reagan had huge borrowing...

If you think investment bankers are better than Government planners for normal people you are a fool. I have worked in both industries... Investment banking is the most wasteful industries, bar Pharma (they are unbelievable)...  They also are driven by individual short term profit, how did that go during the Financial Crisis...

Actually you want the people who caused the Financial Crisis in charge...


----------



## Rigby5 (Aug 5, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> I seem to remember them losing that many due to their commie masters.
> 
> *They started with about 100 million population.*
> 
> ...



I would say a failure of centralization, and centralization would not have happened if not for Stalin being an authoritarian dictator.
Communism pretty much requires and implies a decentralized democracy, with small, local, cooperative and communal, tribal units.

The USSR was never communist at all, in any way.
There were communists pushing for the 1916 revolution, but the Germans sent Lenin in to get Russia out of the war, and he had all the communists killed off.
Lenin and Stalin actually were German agents and it really was Germany that took over from the Tsar.


----------



## Rigby5 (Aug 5, 2021)

Soupnazi630 said:


> Yes that is true. The fact is all humans ( or any other organism ) must work or starve.
> 
> Capitalism gives you the freedom to work OR starve. Collectivists systems enslave you to work AND starve.



Collectivist system allow the option of gaining economy of scale if you want it.
It can't be abusive because the collective option is not mandatory and because the decisions are made locally by the collective members.


----------



## Rigby5 (Aug 5, 2021)

kaz said:


> No, capitalism isn't tyranny of the majority. It's individual choice



No, capitalism is the tyranny of the wealthy elite, who try to force everyone else into feudalism, through a monopoly on capital.
We know for sure because before Teddy Roosevelts, we did not have regulations to stop it, and we had child labor, company towns, abusive Pinkerton agent, 12 hour shifts, dangerous work conditions, discrimination, and we even had slavery.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 5, 2021)

CowboyTed said:


> Reagan had huge borrowing...
> 
> If you think investment bankers are better than Government planners for normal people you are a fool. I have worked in both industries... Investment banking is the most wasteful industries, bar Pharma (they are unbelievable)...  They also are driven by individual short term profit, how did that go during the Financial Crisis...
> 
> Actually you want the people who caused the Financial Crisis in charge...



*Reagan had huge borrowing...*

Yes.

*If you think investment bankers are better than Government planners for normal people you are a fool.*

You think government planners are better for normal people? Tell me more!!!

*Investment banking is the most wasteful industries,*

Wasteful how?
*
They also are driven by individual short term profit,*

Profit? How horrible! 

*how did that go during the Financial Crisis...*

How did government mandates for Fannie and Freddie go during the Financial Crisis?


----------



## dblack (Aug 5, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> No, capitalism is the tyranny of the wealthy elite, who try to force everyone else into feudalism, through a monopoly on capital.


No, you're describing socialism. Which institutes a _true_ monopoly on capital and treats us all as serfs.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 5, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Communism pretty much requires and implies a decentralized democracy, with small, local, cooperative and communal, tribal units.



And gulags, don't forget the gulags.

*They started with about 100 million population.*

In what year?


----------



## kaz (Aug 5, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> No, capitalism is the tyranny of the wealthy elite, who try to force everyone else into feudalism, through a monopoly on capital.
> We know for sure because before Teddy Roosevelts, we did not have regulations to stop it, and we had child labor, company towns, abusive Pinkerton agent, 12 hour shifts, dangerous work conditions, discrimination, and we even had slavery.



That's socialism, jackass.   Socialism is when government makes the decisions if it's for you comrade or for your masters.

You literally don't know what capitalism means.  Crony capitalism is socialism.  Capitalism is choice


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 5, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> The USSR was never communist at all, in any way.



If the government controls 100% of the economy, that's not communist in any way?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 5, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Nah, communism is always better at allocating resources because it can properly prioritize.



A 13 year waiting list for a car with a 2-stroke engine....can't get much better proof that they 
weren't better at allocating resources.


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 5, 2021)

Tom Paine 1949 said:


> The trillions in fiat money “pumped into the system” reinforces _*capitalist*_ relations. Stock market assets grow, the rich get richer, while those without financial assets get more wretched. This is _not_ socialism. Probably you mean something like “‘socialism’ for the corporations and capitalists” — but then you should make this much clearer.


America’s Path To A FIRE Economy
Over the last forty years it seems finance capitalism has trumped manufacturing which coincides with four decades (and counting) of creating criminogenic forms of capitalism based on the three D's: deregulation, de-supervision, and decriminalization.





After the S&L looting of the '80s and 90s hundreds of the most elite criminals received felony convictions, Nothing similar has happened since. It's inconceivable to me to imagine capitalists will ever voluntarily give up their "free lunch" of private profits subsidized by socialized costs.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 5, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> After the S&L looting of the '80s and 90s hundreds of the most elite criminals received felony convictions, Nothing similar has happened since.



What should the sentence be for writing a crappy mortgage? Selling a crappy mortgage?
Buying a crappy mortgage? Borrowing money with a crappy mortgage?

*It's inconceivable to me to imagine capitalists will ever voluntarily give up their "free lunch" of private profits subsidized by socialized costs.*

Any specifics? Which private profits? What socialized cost?


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 5, 2021)

Soupnazi630 said:


> SWealth inequality harms no one and capitalism is the only moral exonomic system as it protects and rests on the rights of indivduals.


Capitalism has never existed without war and debt, and it never will. Only a depraved psychopath would call that moral.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 5, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Capitalism has never existed without war and debt, and it never will. Only a depraved psychopath would call that moral.



*Capitalism has never existed without war and debt,*

When is the last time there was no war or debt?


----------



## Soupnazi630 (Aug 6, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Collectivist system allow the option of gaining economy of scale if you want it.
> It can't be abusive because the collective option is not mandatory and because the decisions are made locally by the collective members.


It is alwasy mandatory and always abusive.

It allows no options at all only what is dicated to you.


----------



## Soupnazi630 (Aug 6, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Capitalism has never existed without war and debt, and it never will. Only a depraved psychopath would call that moral.


Yes it has indeed existed without war and debt.

History proves you wrong


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 6, 2021)

Angelo said:


> If 8 years of George W Bush followed by 8 years of Barack Obama hasn't taught us the lesson Democrats and Republicans in Washington DC are the same, then we'll never learn.
> 
> Or did it teach us that it doesn't matter who's president ?







Although I didn't recognize the Plunder for what it was (and still is), the tip of the iceberg came into view in the late 1980s:

Wall Street Docuseries ‘The Con’ Set for Virtual Premiere (Exclusive)


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 6, 2021)

Soupnazi630 said:


> Yes it has indeed existed without war and debt.
> 
> History proves you wrong


When has capitalism existed without debt?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 6, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> When has capitalism existed without debt?



When was the last time there was no debt? Post the year.


----------



## kaz (Aug 6, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> When was the last time there was no debt? Post the year.



1836.   Andrew Jackson was President


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 6, 2021)

wamose said:


> Bush and Obama were the same. But Trump was a president for the people


I feel genuine pity for anyone who actually believes Don the Con was a president for the people. Trump is a  malignant narcissist, pathological liar, and life-long con man whose only goal has been self-enrichment.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 6, 2021)

kaz said:


> 1836.   Andrew Jackson was President



There was debt in the economy after the government paid off their debt.


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 6, 2021)

struth said:


> via capitalism. They would exist without it


*US capitalism began on the plantation.*




*It isn't too hard to become rich by exploiting free land and free labor.*

American Capitalism Is Brutal. You Can Trace That to the Plantation. (Published 2019)

"Cotton was to the 19th century what oil was to the 20th: among the world’s most widely traded commodities. 

"Cotton is everywhere, in our clothes, hospitals, soap. 

"Before the industrialization of cotton, people wore expensive clothes made of wool or linen and dressed their beds in furs or straw. 

"Whoever mastered cotton could make a killing. 

"But cotton needed land. 

"A field could only tolerate a few straight years of the crop before its soil became depleted. 

"Planters watched as acres that had initially produced 1,000 pounds of cotton yielded only 400 a few seasons later."


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 6, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> No more gas lines/gas shortages.
> And oil and gasoline prices dropped. That was awesome!


You mean Dick's and Henry's gas lines?




The 1973 Arab Oil Embargo: The Old Rules No Longer Apply

"Arab oil producers cut off exports to the U.S. to protest American military support for Israel in its 1973 war with Egypt and Syria. 

"This brought soaring gas prices and long lines at filling stations, and it contributed to a major economic downturn in the U.S.

"The embargo made the U.S. feel heavily dependent on Middle Eastern oil, which in turn led the U.S. to focus on instability in that region, which has since included multiple wars and other U.S. military interventions."


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 6, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Real estate isn't taxed? Real estate income isn't taxed?


You said that not me.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 6, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> You said that not me.







You didn't say that in post #14? Was your account hacked?


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 6, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> How should a junk-bond takeover be taxed? Any specifics?


Ask Mike:


----------



## bripat9643 (Aug 6, 2021)

Tom Paine 1949 said:


> Is “state capitalism” democratic? Can it be? Our U.S. economy, which is profoundly capitalist, is more and more dominated by finance capitalism. Having largely de-industrialized, Wall Street and the Federal Reserve is the heart of the modern American empire. Our democratic Republic is becoming less and less stable, as is much of the rest of our empire’s subordinate dependent economies.
> 
> There are in the world of course also so-called “socialist” economies like China’s. But China, where there are huge corporations and stock markets, is really better described as  “state capitalist.” It has a one-party authoritarian state, but it might as well call itself “Confucian.” It is neither “social-democratic” nor “democratic socialist.” Its “socialist” egalitarian characteristics are certainly not obvious, nor is it structured as was the “planned economy” of the USSR.
> 
> I am trying to give an intelligent outline into the reality of modern world economy, which is very complex and cannot be analyzed accurately in simple 20th century Communist/Capitalist binary Cold War terms. (However, in some ways the national economic contradictions in the world today resemble the situation of competitive capitalist powers before WWI.) I don’t expect most here to be willing to explore the issue in this or any other relatively sophisticated way. Most here are just too wrapped up in truly parochial party partisan politics.


Can you name on example of a state that is "Social Democrat" or egalitarian?


----------



## bripat9643 (Aug 6, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Is this the freedom you're seeking?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 6, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Ask Mike:



You're the one whining about it, no suggestions?


----------



## bripat9643 (Aug 6, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> You're the one whining about it, no suggestions?


He was not charged with fraud.


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 6, 2021)

Burgermeister said:


> Well one is an economic theory and the other is a political theory so yeah, different things. Deep.


What's your choice?




Duh.


----------



## struth (Aug 6, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *US capitalism began on the plantation.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


and capitalism helped end slavery, meanwhile your pals in china literally have slaves picking cotton today


----------



## Soupnazi630 (Aug 7, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> When has capitalism existed without debt?


Many times through out US history


----------



## HappyJoy (Aug 7, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The US is a representative democracy where our government is elected by citizens who vote for their government officials. These officials represent the citizens' ideas and concerns in their society.


Why anyone would choose to believe we are not a democracy is astounding.


----------



## HappyJoy (Aug 7, 2021)

OKTexas said:


> An employment contract is mutually agreed to. Labor is just a commodity like any other.
> 
> .


And most Americans have benefited greatly from collective bargaining whether they were in a union or not.


----------



## HappyJoy (Aug 7, 2021)

Soupnazi630 said:


> Many times through out US history


Name 3 times.


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 7, 2021)

K9Buck said:


> I guess that's what I'm trying to tell you. A truly "capitalist" market is FREE of government interference. You dislike the market and, rather than advocating for LESS government interference, you apparently want MORE government interference.


How is it possible for any economic system to be FREE of government when government creates the money, markets, and legal institutions that make commerce practical for large, complex societies?

Government is a fourth factor of production like land, labor and capital whose goals include lowering the cost of living and doing business along with protecting consumers and workers from parasites whose lifestyles come from "owning" the means of production.

You want a market free of government interference.
I want a market free of...




Government is a tool that can be used to promote policies that benefit a majority of society or a small minority of  rich parasites.

Democracy or oligarchy, what's your choice?


----------



## dblack (Aug 7, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How is it possible for any economic system to be FREE of government when government creates the money, markets, and legal institutions that make commerce practical for large, complex societies?
> 
> Government is a fourth factor of production like land, labor and capital whose goals include lowering the cost of living and doing business along with protecting consumers and workers from parasites whose lifestyles come from "owning" the means of production.



It's certainly possible to prevent government from meddling in the economy. Just like we prevent government from meddling in religion. It's not perfect, nothing is, but for the most part the First Amendment actually works. We need a similar amendment and a similar "wall of separation" to keep state power and economic power distinct and separate.




> Democracy or oligarchy, what's your choice?



False dichotomy. Try again.


----------



## OKTexas (Aug 7, 2021)

HappyJoy said:


> And most Americans have benefited greatly from collective bargaining whether they were in a union or not.




And?

.


----------



## K9Buck (Aug 7, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How is it possible for any economic system to be FREE of government when government creates the money, markets, and legal institutions that make commerce practical for large, complex societies?
> 
> Government is a fourth factor of production like land, labor and capital whose goals include lowering the cost of living and doing business along with protecting consumers and workers from parasites whose lifestyles come from "owning" the means of production.
> 
> ...


Please provide a link for the material that you pasted. Thanks.


----------



## HappyJoy (Aug 7, 2021)

OKTexas said:


> And?
> 
> .


Labor often times is not mutually agreed to, one side offers a wage the other often times doesn't have a choice.


----------



## bripat9643 (Aug 7, 2021)

HappyJoy said:


> Labor often times is not mutually agreed to, one side offers a wage the other often times doesn't have a choice.


That doesn't mean isn't mutually agreed to, idiot.  'A' isn't responsible for the circumstances of 'B' unless he created those circumstances.


----------



## HappyJoy (Aug 7, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> That doesn't mean isn't mutually agreed to, idiot.  'A' isn't responsible for the circumstances of 'B' unless he created those circumstances.



Neat, kid. Thankfully we at least had a strong union at some point in our past to protect workers' rights and we have a federal government that sometimes protects workers from wage exploitation.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 7, 2021)

HappyJoy said:


> we have a federal government that sometimes protects workers from wage exploitation.



If you only produce $8/hour in value but the government mandates $15, 
how is the government protecting you?


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 7, 2021)

dblack said:


> We need a similar amendment and a similar "wall of separation" to keep state power and economic power distinct and separate.


What institution prints the money that individuals and businesses use to pay their taxes?

Withering away of the state - Wikipedia.


----------



## dblack (Aug 7, 2021)

HappyJoy said:


> Labor often times is not mutually agreed to, one side offers a wage the other often times doesn't have a choice.


Well slavery is illegal, and should remain that way.


----------



## HappyJoy (Aug 7, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> If you only produce $8/hour in value but the government mandates $15,
> how is the government protecting you?


What job is worth only 8 bucks an hour where the government is mandating a higher wage?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 7, 2021)

HappyJoy said:


> What job is worth only 8 bucks an hour where the government is mandating a higher wage?



You don't understand how the value someone adds doesn't have to be as high as the government 
mandated minimum wage?


----------



## HappyJoy (Aug 7, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> You don't understand how the value someone adds doesn't have to be as high as the government
> mandated minimum wage?


Right, what job is worth 8 bucks that the government is mandating a higher wage?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 7, 2021)

HappyJoy said:


> Right, what job is worth 8 bucks that the government is mandating a higher wage?



If your skill level is so low that you turn $8 of materials into a $16 product in
an hour, how is the government protecting you by mandating you be paid $15/hr?


----------



## HappyJoy (Aug 7, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> If your skill level is so low that you turn $8 of materials into a $16 product in
> an hour, how is the government protecting you by mandating you be paid $15/hr?


I guess you can't think of a job worth 8 bucks where the government is mandating a $15 hourly wage.


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 7, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Why didn't you ever buy any equities?


AUGUST 6, 2021
Capitalism in America: You Are The Chicken​


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 7, 2021)

HappyJoy said:


> I guess you can't think of a job worth 8 bucks where the government is mandating a $15 hourly wage.



You seriously don't understand the concept of "value-added"?

Try this one, you can only add $8 of value an hour, but Illinois mandates an $11 minimum wage.

Understand yet?

_In economics, specifically macroeconomics, the term *value added* refers to the contribution of the factors of production (i.e. capital and labor) to raising the value of the product and increasing the income of those who own said factors._





__





						Value added - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 7, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> AUGUST 6, 2021
> Capitalism in America: You Are The Chicken​



And you're the poor idiot who never bought any stocks.


----------



## HappyJoy (Aug 7, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> You seriously don't understand the concept of "value-added"?
> 
> Try this one, you can only add $8 of value an hour, but Illinois mandates an $11 minimum wage.
> 
> ...



I'm specifically asking for a job that is only worth 8 bucks an hour but the government mandates 15. You haven't been able to name that job.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 7, 2021)

HappyJoy said:


> I'm specifically asking for a job that is only worth 8 bucks an hour but the government mandates 15. You haven't been able to name that job.



Plenty of unskilled people with little or no experience who aren't worth $8 an hour. Let alone $15.


----------



## HappyJoy (Aug 7, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Plenty of unskilled people with little or no experience who aren't worth $8 an hour. Let alone $15.




Like?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 7, 2021)

HappyJoy said:


> Like?



80% of the Chicago Public School "graduates".
95% of the Chicago Public School dropouts.


----------



## dblack (Aug 7, 2021)

HappyJoy said:


> I'm specifically asking for a job that is only worth 8 bucks an hour but the government mandates 15. You haven't been able to name that job.


The jobs that go away after the minimum wage is increased above $8/hr. Are you saying that's never happened?


----------



## HappyJoy (Aug 7, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> 80% of the Chicago Public School "graduates".
> 95% of the Chicago Public School dropouts.



Ah, dog whistles aren't jobs.


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 7, 2021)

Deplorable Yankee said:


> For the 98957th time
> 
> Capitalism is not really an ideology


"An *ideology* (/ˌʌɪdɪˈɒlədʒi/) is a set of beliefs or philosophies attributed to a person or group of persons, especially as held for reasons that are not purely epistemic,[1][2] in which 'practical elements are as prominent as theoretical ones.'[3] 

"Formerly applied primarily to economic, political, or religious theories and policies, in a tradition going back to Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, more recent use treats the term as mainly condemnatory.[4]

Ideology - Wikipedia

"The term was coined by Antoine Destutt de Tracy, a French Enlightenment aristocrat and philosopher, who conceived it in 1796 as the 'science of ideas' to develop a rational system of ideas to oppose the irrational impulses of the mob. In political science, the term is used in a descriptive sense to refer to political belief systems."


----------



## Death Angel (Aug 7, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Capitalism is NOT Democratic: Democracy is NOT Capitalist​
> And Communism is not succesful.


And only your statement is true. 

The socialists/commies finally feel free to come out of the closet. I believe this is America's last generation


----------



## struth (Aug 7, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> What institution prints the money that individuals and businesses use to pay their taxes?
> 
> Withering away of the state - Wikipedia.


unfortuately that theory has never actually happened.  Leftist regimes never give up their power, Communism is only a theory, leftist regimes never get past socialism.


----------



## HappyJoy (Aug 7, 2021)

dblack said:


> The jobs that go away after the minimum wage is increased above $8/hr. Are you saying that's never happened?



Ever happened? Probably has. Do I think the minimum wage has been more beneficial? Absolutely.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 7, 2021)

HappyJoy said:


> Ah, dog whistles aren't jobs.



And plenty of people can't add $8 let alone $15 per hour.


----------



## HappyJoy (Aug 7, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "An *ideology* (/ˌʌɪdɪˈɒlədʒi/) is a set of beliefs or philosophies attributed to a person or group of persons, especially as held for reasons that are not purely epistemic,[1][2] in which 'practical elements are as prominent as theoretical ones.'[3]
> 
> "Formerly applied primarily to economic, political, or religious theories and policies, in a tradition going back to Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, more recent use treats the term as mainly condemnatory.[4]
> 
> ...


In other words. Capitalism really is an ideology. I'm sure Deplorable Yankee will thank you for educating him after he gets up off the floor.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 7, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> AUGUST 6, 2021
> Capitalism in America: You Are The Chicken​



Thanks for the link......

_
*You Are The Chicken*

To say the American worker faces a free market is to say that chickens are free to become McNuggets. All the homes in America have been paid for many times over and still we pay mortgages, rent, and dues the rest of our lives. All the housing should be free! All the schools, the streets, the bridges, all the sewers, towers and wires, should be free! “Sunk costs” the economists call them. Money already spent. Our endowment.

All the land is everybody’s and all the food it produces should be free as well. The oil beneath the land should be as free as the air above. Cars should be free. Computers should be free. Everything we need should be absolutely free. We already paid for it. It’s our history, our heritage, our legacy._

Comedy gold!!!


----------



## HappyJoy (Aug 7, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> And plenty of people can't add $8 let alone $15 per hour.



Or answer a direct question after being given more opportunities than they deserved.


----------



## dblack (Aug 7, 2021)

HappyJoy said:


> Ever happened? Probably has. Do I think the minimum wage has been more beneficial? Absolutely.


How do you measure that?


----------



## bripat9643 (Aug 7, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> What institution prints the money that individuals and businesses use to pay their taxes?
> 
> Withering away of the state - Wikipedia.


Private banks did it until 1914.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 7, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Private banks did it until 1914.



With mixed results.


----------



## bripat9643 (Aug 7, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> With mixed results.


The dollar was worth twice as much in 1914 as it was in 1789 when the Constitution determined its value in terms of gold.

During that period the United States economy grew to be the largest and wealthiest on Earth.

What's "mixed" about it?


----------



## sartre play (Aug 7, 2021)

So who ever can produce the best lies, one liners, and scream the loudest & keep us divided with party favorites who have less and less knowledge of the job their sent to do; that's who wins?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 7, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> The dollar was worth twice as much in 1914 as it was in 1789 when the Constitution determined its value in terms of gold.
> 
> During that period the United States economy grew to be the largest and wealthiest on Earth.
> 
> What's "mixed" about it?



*What's "mixed" about it?*

Banks printed their own notes.
If you held a note from the Bank of Biden and it failed, what was your recourse?


----------



## bripat9643 (Aug 7, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *What's "mixed" about it?*
> 
> Banks printed their own notes.
> If you held a note from the Bank of Biden and it failed, what was your recourse?


A banks reputation for sound banking practice was widely known.  You had more recourse with private banks than you have with the federal reserve.  In the former case, you could decline to use the notes of irresponsible banks.  In the later case, you have no recourse.


----------



## OKTexas (Aug 7, 2021)

HappyJoy said:


> Labor often times is not mutually agreed to, one side offers a wage the other often times doesn't have a choice.




There's always a choice.

.


----------



## sartre play (Aug 7, 2021)

There really is very little Communism in America, Just one of the newer buzz words to help divide America. What the hell it worked for a while starting in the 50s


----------



## bripat9643 (Aug 7, 2021)

sartre play said:


> There really is very little Communism in America, Just one of the newer buzz words to help divide America. What the hell it worked for a while starting in the 50s


ROFL.  Our public universities are infest with communists in all the social sciences and humanities.  They are busy cranking out dedicated Marxists by the truck load.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 7, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> A banks reputation for sound banking practice was widely known.



Really? Everyone knew every bank? Hundreds of them? Thousands?
And yet, banks failed and noteholders lost it all.

*You had more recourse with private banks than you have with the federal reserve.*

Why do you feel that? Has a federal reserve note ever failed?

*In the former case, you could decline to use the notes of irresponsible banks.*

Too late, if you already held their note.


----------



## HappyJoy (Aug 7, 2021)

OKTexas said:


> There's always a choice.
> 
> .


Nope, the employee often times does not have the means to negotiate employment terms against a large employer.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 7, 2021)

HappyJoy said:


> Nope, the employee often times does not have the means to negotiate employment terms against a large employer.



Lots of large employers forcing you to work for them?


----------



## OKTexas (Aug 7, 2021)

HappyJoy said:


> Nope, the employee often times does not have the means to negotiate employment terms against a large employer.




Then he goes on down the road, simple. I've walked out of many interviews where the money didn't meet my expectations, no since wasting their time or mine.

.


----------



## dblack (Aug 7, 2021)

HappyJoy said:


> Nope, the employee often times does not have the means to negotiate employment terms against a large employer.


So what? They still have a choice.


----------



## Soupnazi630 (Aug 8, 2021)

HappyJoy said:


> Labor often times is not mutually agreed to, one side offers a wage the other often times doesn't have a choice.


It is still mutually agreed to even if one feels one has no choice.


----------



## Soupnazi630 (Aug 8, 2021)

HappyJoy said:


> Why anyone would choose to believe we are not a democracy is astounding.


It is not belief it is fact we are not a democracy.

To claim otherwise is ignorant..


----------



## Soupnazi630 (Aug 8, 2021)

HappyJoy said:


> And most Americans have benefited greatly from collective bargaining whether they were in a union or not.


Union propaganda


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 8, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> n economics, specifically macroeconomics, the term *value added* refers to the contribution of the factors of production (i.e. capital and labor) to raising the value of the product and increasing the income of those who own said factors.


Who decides how much value labor adds to the product, owners or shareholders?


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 8, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> And you're the poor idiot who never bought any stocks.


And you're the greedy schmuck looking for the next bigger fool.


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 8, 2021)

Nostra said:


> Oh, and your source is a Hitlery Clinton supporter. Even looks the part of a libtard hipster dufus.


*Know when ignorant crackers lose an argument?
When they resort to ad hominem claims.*

Voter suppression helped decide presidential election - The Pitt News

"Milwaukee, the heart of Wisconsin’s Democratic Party, saw a drop in turnout of about 41,000 people, attributable almost wholly to increased voting obstacles introduced under the Republican legislature and administration, according to the city’s elections chief. 

"Across the state, estimates show nearly 300,000 voters lacked the photo identification necessary to vote under the new voting regime. 

"We may never know how much Trump’s message actually appealed to Wisconsinites, if only because so many of them were unable to speak through the ballot box. Among those silenced were many of the state’s minority voters who planned to vote for Clinton."


----------



## Soupnazi630 (Aug 8, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Who decides how much value labor adds to the product, owners or shareholders?


Customers


----------



## dblack (Aug 8, 2021)

Soupnazi630 said:


> Customers


This. Right here. This is the one thing socialists can't, won't, see.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 8, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Who decides how much value labor adds to the product, owners or shareholders?



The market.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 8, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> And you're the greedy schmuck looking for the next bigger fool.



Everyone who bought stock is Bernie Madoff? Hilarious!!!


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 8, 2021)

LAUGHatLEFTISTS said:


> Hillary’s going to be pissed. Nancy and Chuckie told her it was the Russians!


*Even brain-dead conservatives should be able to comprehend why Russians and Republicans backed the same corporate whore in 2016*

Voter suppression helped decide presidential election - The Pitt News

"There’s no denying that large GOP wins within this demographic was central to Republican victories in crucial battleground states like Wisconsin, North Carolina and here in Pennsylvania. 

"But far more crucial to the reality TV personality’s electoral success was his party’s ability to depress Democratic turnout — he won with fewer popular votes than John McCain in 2008, Mitt Romney in 2012 and even his Democratic rival, Hillary Clinton, in 2016."


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 8, 2021)

LAUGHatLEFTISTS said:


> They wrote documents to keep the federal government out of the way.
> Anything else I can help you with?


Link to any opinions the Founders had about corporations...
Rube.


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 8, 2021)

struth said:


> um owners don’t determine what to produce or how much…demand does, demand by the people.


How many people demanded the outsourcing of millions of middle-class jobs to China? A very small very rich minority called the "owners of the means of production" made that call. By contrast, in Germany where many labor unions had blue-collar workers sitting on the board of directors of the corporations they worked for, far fewer "owners" made the decision to move production to slave-wage domains.


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 8, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Intelligence divides society into two unequal cohorts: smart people and morons.







Tired of winning?


----------



## Soupnazi630 (Aug 8, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Even brain-dead conservatives should be able to comprehend why Russians and Republicans backed the same corporate whore in 2016*
> 
> Voter suppression helped decide presidential election - The Pitt News
> 
> ...


Since he lost the popular vote it is clear there was no votyer suppression and the Russian interference was miniscule


----------



## Soupnazi630 (Aug 8, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How many people demanded the outsourcing of millions of middle-class jobs to China? A very small very rich minority called the "owners of the means of production" made that call. By contrast, in Germany where many labor unions had blue-collar workers sitting on the board of directors of the corporations they worked for, far fewer "owners" made the decision to move production to slave-wage domains.


Germany is an inferior and backwards state. Not a good example. The reason for that outsourcing was too much interference from government.

More of the same does not work yet that is what you call for


----------



## HappyJoy (Aug 8, 2021)

Soupnazi630 said:


> It is still mutually agreed to even if one feels one has no choice.



And you wonder why corporations get a pass.


----------



## HappyJoy (Aug 8, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Lots of large employers forcing you to work for them?


Nope, not me.


----------



## Soupnazi630 (Aug 8, 2021)

HappyJoy said:


> And you wonder why corporations get a pass.


A pass for what exactly?


----------



## HappyJoy (Aug 8, 2021)

OKTexas said:


> Then he goes on down the road, simple. I've walked out of many interviews where the money didn't meet my expectations, no since wasting their time or mine.
> 
> .


Yeah, because the next corporation has no incentive to pay anymore than the previous.


----------



## Soupnazi630 (Aug 8, 2021)

HappyJoy said:


> Nope, not me.


Nor anyone else


----------



## Soupnazi630 (Aug 8, 2021)

HappyJoy said:


> Yeah, because the next corporation has no incentive to pay anymore than the previous.


Neither does anyone else.


----------



## Turtlesoup (Aug 8, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> We're a representative democracy not an oligarchy.


No--we were always supposed to be a republic.   Democracies are mob rule and our founders hated the mob and thought most people were idiots.   They tried to set up a system where only the intelligent and producers could run for government or vote in government.   Welfare hos, druggies, town drunks, the town morons and bums were never intended a say in government.


----------



## 22lcidw (Aug 8, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Link to any opinions the Founders had about corporations...
> Rube.


Taxes had a lot to with it.


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 8, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> 'd rater be "exploited" by capitalism than have a share of the communal meal.








MAGA yet?


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 8, 2021)

themirrorthief said:


> if you have no money you arent free to do much of anything...like eat give me the cash and you can keep your communism


Tell the capitalist parasites




The GOP tax law showers benefits on the wealthy and large corporations while abandoning middle-class Americans and Main Street businesses


----------



## westwall (Aug 8, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Capitalism is NOT Democratic: Democracy is NOT Capitalist​
> And Communism is not succesful.




Not ever.  Except for committing mass murder.  They are the best ever at that.


----------



## westwall (Aug 8, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *You're still ignorant.*
> 
> Great Bengal famine of 1770 - Wikipedia
> 
> "The Company provided little mitigation either through reduced taxation or by relief efforts.[7] Other factors adding to the pressure were: grain merchants ceased offering grain advances to peasants, *but the market mechanism for exporting their grain to other regions remained in place;* the Company purchased a large proportion of the rice for its army; and the Company's private servants and their Indian Gomasthas created local monopolies of grain."





Near 300 year old tales of corrupt assholes doesn't help you, idiot.

Venezuela,  right now, is starving.   Your socialist Mecca is witnessing the largest mass starvation in decades.

You truly are a moron.


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 8, 2021)

Nostra said:


> our Socialist Utopia does that on steroids......the Political Elite, and the starving peasants


The revenge of the 'Oxy electorate' helped fuel Trump's election upset


----------



## MisterBeale (Aug 8, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf
> 
> "Capitalism and democracy follow different logics: unequally distributed property rights on the one hand, equal civic and political rights on the other; profit oriented trade within capitalism in contrast to the search for the common good within democracy; debate, compromise and majority decision-making within democratic politics versus hierarchical decision-making by managers and capital owners.
> 
> ...


You are incorrect.


The source of the problem has to do with government intervention, not the free market. 

Adam Smith and many economists have already solved this problem, but powerful oligarchs have prevented the implementation of the solution.

" . .  It was Adam Smith who first noted the efficiency and distributional properties of a land value tax in his book _The Wealth of Nations_.[11]


". . . Ground-rents are a still more proper subject of taxation than the rent of houses. A tax upon ground-rents would not raise the rents of houses. It would fall altogether upon the owner of the ground-rent, who acts always as a monopolist, and exacts the greatest rent which can be got for the use of his ground. More or less can be got for it according as the competitors happen to be richer or poorer, or can afford to gratify their fancy for a particular spot of ground at a greater or smaller expense. In every country the greatest number of rich competitors is in the capital, and it is there accordingly that the highest ground-rents are always to be found. As the wealth of those competitors would in no respect be increased by a tax upon ground-rents, they would not probably be disposed to pay more for the use of the ground. Whether the tax was to be advanced by the inhabitant, or by the owner of the ground, would be of little importance. The more the inhabitant was obliged to pay for the tax, the less he would incline to pay for the ground; so that the final payment of the tax would fall altogether upon the owner of the ground-rent. Both ground-rents and the ordinary rent of land are a species of revenue which the owner, in many cases, enjoys without any care or attention of his own. Though a part of this revenue should be taken from him in order to defray the expenses of the state, no discouragement will thereby be given to any sort of industry. The annual produce of the land and labour of the society, the real wealth and revenue of the great body of the people, might be the same after such a tax as before. Ground-rents and the ordinary rent of land are, therefore, perhaps, the species of revenue which can best bear to have a peculiar tax imposed upon them. [...] Nothing can be more reasonable than that a fund which owes its existence to the good government of the state should be taxed peculiarly, or should contribute something more than the greater part of other funds, towards the support of that government."
— Adam Smith, _The Wealth of Nations_, Book V, Chapter 2








						Georgism - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 8, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Tired of winning?



How'd your bright idea of never buying any stock work out for you?

Are you the poorest genius?

The brightest broke whiner?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 8, 2021)

HappyJoy said:


> Nope, not me.



I'm happy I could explain your error to you.


----------



## struth (Aug 8, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How many people demanded the outsourcing of millions of middle-class jobs to China? A very small very rich minority called the "owners of the means of production" made that call. By contrast, in Germany where many labor unions had blue-collar workers sitting on the board of directors of the corporations they worked for, far fewer "owners" made the decision to move production to slave-wage domains.


china is Germany’s biggest trading partner.  try again


----------



## OKTexas (Aug 8, 2021)

HappyJoy said:


> Yeah, because the next corporation has no incentive to pay anymore than the previous.




All corporations compete for qualified people, right now Target is offering full college tuition, books and fees trying attract employees. You need to put the kool-aid down.

.


----------



## bripat9643 (Aug 8, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Tell the capitalist parasites
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How are people who produce a product that you purchase voluntarily "parasites."


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 8, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> How are people who produce a product that you purchase voluntarily "parasites."



Because property is theft.....just ask him.


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 9, 2021)

LAUGHatLEFTISTS said:


> I’m glad you’re fixation on race runs your life. You deserve it.


I'm (almost) sorry your ignorance of US history blinds you to how America profits by projecting racism into foreign and domestic policy.




https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/...without-saying-it-supports-two-state-solution


----------



## LAUGHatLEFTISTS (Aug 9, 2021)

H





georgephillip said:


> I'm (almost) sorry your ignorance of US history blinds you to how America profits by projecting racism into foreign and domestic policy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hahahahha another post relying on race. Enjoy your hate and misery. I know I do!


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 9, 2021)

Tom Paine 1949 said:


> I’m glad to see somebody besides me reads Wolfstreet.com . It is one of the best places to educate oneself about our mad contemporary capitalism, written by a guy who really understands how the Federal Reserve system works.


*The Fed seems more interested in bailing out creditors? There's a saying that goes "if you owe the bank one million dollars, the bank own you, but if you owe the bank 100 million dollars, you own the bank" Collectively, US debtors own the bank:*
You are not a loan • Debt Collective




"The only sensible solution is a policy of generous cash payments coupled with wide-scale debt relief. 

"Research shows that people spent 30 percent of their 2020 stimulus checks to service debt, which means the government’s cash transfers were, in the end, *a rather roundabout way of bailing out creditors—*an absurd and wasteful outcome, given the profitability of the financial sector and the damage it has done to society as a whole."

The Case for Wide-Scale Debt Relief

"You Are Not Aloan"


----------



## CrusaderFrank (Aug 9, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf
> 
> "Capitalism and democracy follow different logics: unequally distributed property rights on the one hand, equal civic and political rights on the other; profit oriented trade within capitalism in contrast to the search for the common good within democracy; debate, compromise and majority decision-making within democratic politics versus hierarchical decision-making by managers and capital owners.
> 
> ...



Capitalism is an economic system, democracy is a political system; see the problem?


“Information is not knowledge.
Knowledge is not wisdom.
Wisdom is not truth.
Truth is not beauty.
Beauty is not love.
Love is not music.
Music is THE BEST.” -- Frank Zappa​


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 9, 2021)

Tom Paine 1949 said:


> On the other hand, I do NOT agree with argument that the U.S. Revolution was “a counterrevolution” inspired to any significant degree by a fear that Britain would abolish slavery.


*Britain didn't get around to outlawing slavery until 1807, so American capitalism dodged a bullet there, but Haiti provided a new threat.*

How did the slave trade end in Britain?

"On 23 August 1791 a massive revolt by enslaved Africans erupted on the island of Saint Domingue, now known as Haiti and the Dominican Republic. 

"The uprising would play a crucial role in making Saint Domingue the first Caribbean island to declare its independence and only the second independent nation in the Western Hemisphere."


----------



## bripat9643 (Aug 9, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *The Fed seems more interested in bailing out creditors? There's a saying that goes "if you owe the bank one million dollars, the bank own you, but if you owe the bank 100 million dollars, you own the bank" Collectively, US debtors own the bank:*
> You are not a loan • Debt Collective
> 
> 
> ...


The US government is the biggest debtor in the universe.


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 9, 2021)

Uncensored2008 said:


> Hey retard, "Capitalism" is an economic system. Democracy is a form of government. You're again trying to compare cats and bulldozers, showing just how fucking stupid you are.


*Capitalism is a criminal enterprise that transforms democracies into oligarchies. It's not hard to guess which political economy brain-dead rat shit like you prefer.*

https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf

"How deeply seated are the incompatibilities of 'varieties of capitalism' with different varieties of democracy? 

"To what extent has capitalism, in its different varieties, become a challenge for democracy and its normative standards? 

*"In our approach capitalism is the challenger, the independent variable, while democracy functions as the dependent variable*. 

"Yet, this independent variable is in a constant process of change, conditioned by political, social and economic influences."


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 9, 2021)

Uncensored2008 said:


> You don't know what "capitalism" is.
> 
> You're a fucking retard.


Capitalism is a con. 
It was born in slavery and genocide.
Only useless eaters like you a clueless.


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 9, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Where does the economy borrow from?


Rich people who don't pay enough taxes.
Does that help?


----------



## struth (Aug 9, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Rich people who don't pay enough taxes.
> Does that help?


the govt isn’t the economy.

If the money isn’t paid in taxes to the govt they are still spending it in the economy.  duh


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 9, 2021)

Uncensored2008 said:


> Because the Oligarchs, Zuckerberg, Cook, Soros, et al are such free market advocats..


Trump's an oligarch and a moron.




Class War for Idiots: Libertarianism = Assholism


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 9, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "The only sensible solution is a policy of generous cash payments coupled with wide-scale debt relief.



Solution to the fact that you're a deadbeat?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 9, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Rich people who don't pay enough taxes.
> Does that help?



The economy borrows from rich people?
What name does the economy sign on the loan docs?
And you're whining the economy can't pay them back?


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Aug 9, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Capitalism is a con.
> It was born in slavery and genocide.
> Only useless eaters like you a clueless.



Retard George is drunker than usual tonight...


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Aug 9, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Trump's an oligarch and a moron.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And Retard George ducks the facts again, if the drooling moron understood the point at all...


----------



## Tom Paine 1949 (Aug 10, 2021)

> Capitalism is a con.
> It was born in slavery and genocide.


Capitalism was also a revolutionary force in its beginnings … or at least that is what Karl Marx argued.

Your understanding of capitalism is way too oversimplified. You also don’t seem to have given much thought to what an alternative to capitalism might look like, or how to get there from here. You are right capitalism has been and still is utterly brutal in many places and at many times, but it was also key in overturning monarchism, feudalism, and chattel slavery in the 19th century. It has also of course unleashed tremendous productive forces and encouraged scientific and technological advances. The issue for humanity is … where is it leading us now?


----------



## Soupnazi630 (Aug 10, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Rich people who don't pay enough taxes.
> Does that help?


How much is enough and what standards do you go by to decide?


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 10, 2021)

Uncensored2008 said:


> Hey retard George, how did it go when you went into the desert and dug holes, then filled them in? Did your labor produce everything your retarded ass needs?


More than yours
Rube.


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 10, 2021)

OKTexas said:


> BTW some idiot working multiple jobs probably doesn't have good enough credit to even get a damn credit card. They may be ignorant, but you're just plain stupid.


Only someone as stupid and ignorant as Trump believes those who need multiple jobs to provide for their family can succeed without putting part of their monthly expenses on a credit card.


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 10, 2021)

OKTexas said:


> Short answer, YES! Some of the richest people in the US and around the world aren't defense contractors and they have nothing to do with extending credit to their customers. Any more excuses you what to make up?


The US dollar fills the bank accounts of ALL rich people, and the US dollar is as much an instrument of eternal war and debt as the US military with its network of 800 military bases around the world. 

In fact, it's US dollars spent into foreign economies which are then recycled through foreign central banks into US Treasury bonds that finance their countries encirclement with US bases. It is basically the largest free lunch in economic history, and everyone who uses US currency profits from it.




The Hard Fist of American Imperialism | Michael Hudson


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 10, 2021)

yidnar said:


> has any one else noticed how the dems are pointing out the evils of capitalism and defending socialism in the same breath ? dems are basically admitting they are socialists [communists in training] ...


----------



## dblack (Aug 10, 2021)

georgephillip said:


>


Nope. Most of them are corporatists.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 10, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> It is basically the largest free lunch in economic history, and everyone who uses US currency profits from it.



Explain how you profit from it.........


----------



## bripat9643 (Aug 10, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The US dollar fills the bank accounts of ALL rich people, and the US dollar is as much an instrument of eternal war and debt as the US military with its network of 800 military bases around the world.
> 
> In fact, it's US dollars spent into foreign economies which are then recycled through foreign central banks into US Treasury bonds that finance their countries encirclement with US bases. It is basically the largest free lunch in economic history, and everyone who uses US currency profits from it.
> 
> ...


That's a good reason to stop using the U.S. dollar as a medium of exchange.


----------



## Scottish_Brexiteer_UK (Aug 10, 2021)

Capitalism isn't great.
Democracy is flawed.
Socialism is idealistic.
Marxism is idiotic.

I think that covers it.

However the top 2 is what we've got and the best of a bad bunch. You think capitalism is bad? lol engage your brain and think of the alternatives.


----------



## OKTexas (Aug 10, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Only someone as stupid and ignorant as Trump believes those who need multiple jobs to provide for their family can succeed without putting part of their monthly expenses on a credit card.




And only an ignorant commie thinks you can borrow your way to prosperity.

.


----------



## OKTexas (Aug 10, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The US dollar fills the bank accounts of ALL rich people, and the US dollar is as much an instrument of eternal war and debt as the US military with its network of 800 military bases around the world.
> 
> In fact, it's US dollars spent into foreign economies which are then recycled through foreign central banks into US Treasury bonds that finance their countries encirclement with US bases. It is basically the largest free lunch in economic history, and everyone who uses US currency profits from it.
> 
> ...




Kewl photo commie, the flag doesn't seem to match the uniforms.

.


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 11, 2021)

Tom Paine 1949 said:


> Is “state capitalism” democratic? Can it be? Our U.S. economy, which is profoundly capitalist, is more and more dominated by finance capitalism. Having largely de-industrialized, Wall Street and the Federal Reserve is the heart of the modern American empire.


*Even after precipitating the biggest economic downturn since the Great Depression, finance capitalism is just as corrupt as it has ever been:*



"On July 21, 2010, the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act (Dodd-Frank Act) became the law of the United States. 

"Its promise to Americans was that it would reform the corrupt practices on Wall Street that had led to the worst financial collapse in 2008 since the Great Depression and the largest taxpayer bailout of Wall Street in history.

But here we are, 11 years later, with every one of those corrupt practices in full display at the Wall Street mega banks today. 

"Losses from wild derivative bets check. 

"Trading for the house (proprietary trading), check. 

"Secret bailouts from the Fed, check. 

"Credit Default swaps, check. 

"The continuance of the private justice system on Wall Street, check. 

"Banks paying rating agencies for ratings, check. 

"Banks giving insanely leveraged loans to hedge funds, check...."

More than a Decade after the Volcker Rule Purported to Outlaw It, JPMorgan Chase Still Owns a Hedge Fund

"The Dodd-Frank Act was passed with President Obama, a Democrat, in the White House and Democrats in control of both the House and Senate. President Biden, a Democrat, now occupies the Oval Office. 

"Democrats are once again in control of the House and Senate. 

"Yes, there is much on their plate in the middle of a pandemic. 

"*But there will be a lot worse on their plate if there is another financial panic on Wall Street.* It’s long past the time to clean up this toxic mess that threatens the financial stability of the United States and, thus, the national security of the nation"


----------



## Soupnazi630 (Aug 11, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Even after precipitating the biggest economic downturn since the Great Depression, finance capitalism is just as corrupt as it has ever been:*
> View attachment 524269
> "On July 21, 2010, the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act (Dodd-Frank Act) became the law of the United States.
> 
> ...


A law passed by government to control economics failed. This is what your post demonstrates. It does not demonstrate a failure of capitalism.

Total back fire from you. 

You are calling for more of the same failure.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 11, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Even after precipitating the biggest economic downturn since the Great Depression, finance capitalism is just as corrupt as it has ever been:*
> View attachment 524269
> "On July 21, 2010, the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act (Dodd-Frank Act) became the law of the United States.
> 
> ...



*"Losses from wild derivative bets check.*

_Archegos used borrowed money to build massive positions in stocks including media companies ViacomCBS (VIACA) and Discovery (DISCA), and was unable to pay back its lenders when share prices dropped._

Durr.

*"Trading for the house (proprietary trading), check.*

_Dear Customers: We lost $3.2 billion trading stocks and credit derivatives in the first quarter._

What was their income for the year?

*Secret bailouts from the Fed, check.*

Short-term, fully collateralized loans......Yawn.

*JPMorgan Chase has exposure to $1.2 trillion in Credit Default Swaps while Citibank has exposure to $1.76 trillion for a combined total of $2.96 trillion as of September 30, 2019.*

I had a $5 bet on a baseball game. My "exposure" was $5 billion. Scary!


----------



## Scottish_Brexiteer_UK (Aug 11, 2021)

Regards Capitalism I still struggle to get my head around this leftist brain fart that wealth and money-making is evil.

It isn't.

Corruption and bullying is evil, which (I will admit) a lot of wealthy people excel in. There's no doubt about that.

But the principle of free economies, wealth/money-making, giving people what they want, propping up economies etc is a good thing.

It enhances our lives, keeps us motivated and gives us things to aim for.

Personally speaking if there's something I want bad enough, I'll do over-time in work, save up for it, buy it and enjoy it. There's nothing wrong with that.

I do a lot of travelling around Europe with my friends watching my football team play. When a draw is made I'll book flights and hotels for us all on my credit card and that gives me and my friends a month to pay (we can then pay when we get our next wage through) pay the bill on time and not get hit with interest and charges.

Capitalism is good when it's done right.

It makes the world go round.

Why do the left and anti-capitalists not have a problem with people who become wealthy overnight like winning the lottery, left millions in someone's will when they die or some snotty rich kid born into wealth. All that seems to be OK with the maniacs but not someone who's worked hard and built up a company or empire? 

The ones that make me laugh are always the ones who are all anti-capitalist from the comfort of their smart phones, laptops and tablets - ye know, stuff they don't want to go without either. Or protesting capitalism from Universities that cost them 100-grand for their 3/4 year tenure of study, where their aim is to come out of it the other side with a well-paid job and set for life.

Hypocrites.


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 11, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> In the old days......now it kills critical thinking.


----------



## dblack (Aug 11, 2021)

Scottish_Brexiteer_UK said:


> Regards Capitalism I still struggle to get my head around this leftist brain fart that wealth and money-making is evil.



Even beyond the moral judgement, there is also the complete failure to understand the work that capitalists do. They think of profits as "money for nothing".


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 11, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Under communism workers are forced to donate their labor or starve. Sometimes and starve.


Under capitalism parasites are celebrated.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 11, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Under capitalism parasites are celebrated.



And morons who fail and whine are......you.


----------



## struth (Aug 11, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Under capitalism parasites are celebrated.


Under socialism....people can't get TP to whip their butts.









						Cuba runs out of toilet paper
					

The financial crisis, which has already hit Cuba's economy hard, is about to give the country another big kick, this time in the tuchas. Literally.…




					foreignpolicy.com


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 11, 2021)

dblack said:


> Yep. They also have different domains. In the US we use democracy for government, but freedom for markets. That's by design. Economic power and state power should remain separate.


Freedom is best advanced through one person one vote.
Capitalism prefers one dollar one vote.
In the US "free" markets are those free of government regulation. Traditionally markets free from the legacy of feudalism, a landlord class, predatory banking, and monopolies that bondholders convinced government to create as a means of paying off national war debts qualify as free markets.




CORPORATE SOCIAL RESPONSIBILITY AND SOCIAL REPORTING GROUP 4


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 11, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Freedom is best advanced through one person one vote.
> Capitalism prefers one dollar one vote.
> In the US "free" markets are those free of government regulation. Traditionally markets free from the legacy of feudalism, a landlord class, predatory banking, and monopolies that bondholders convinced government to create as a means of paying off national war debts qualify as free markets.
> 
> ...



*Capitalism prefers one dollar one vote.*

Or in your case, zero dollars zero votes.


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 12, 2021)

j-mac said:


> No sir. Our universities and colleges today are ideological indoctrination centers. Free speech and thought is dead on their campuses…That’s a fact.


*How do you transmit, test, and expand knowledge without free speech?*

On Freedom of Expression and Campus Speech Codes | AAUP

"Freedom of thought and expression is essential to any institution of higher learning. Universities and colleges exist not only to transmit knowledge. 

"Equally, they interpret, explore, and expand that knowledge by testing the old and proposing the new. 

"This mission guides learning outside the classroom quite as much as in class, and often inspires vigorous debate on those social, economic, and political issues that arouse the strongest passions. 

"In the process, views will be expressed that may seem to many wrong, distasteful, or offensive. Such is the nature of freedom to sift and winnow ideas."


----------



## j-mac (Aug 12, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *How do you transmit, test, and expand knowledge without free speech?*
> 
> On Freedom of Expression and Campus Speech Codes | AAUP
> 
> ...


That’s a joke right?


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 12, 2021)

j-mac said:


> So you don’t like effigies?


*I prefer democracy.*​​Armed Protesters Inspire Fear, Chill Free Speech

"On January 6, 2021, our nation witnessed an armed insurrection at the United States Capitol by a pro-Trump mob that included members of far-right extremist groups and militia networks."​


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 12, 2021)

Uncensored2008 said:


> That's shocking, Retard George.
> 
> View attachment 521386
> 
> View attachment 521385


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 12, 2021)

dblack said:


> So let's give government _more_ power to control the economy. The corporate lobbyists will really dig that!


Why not use government to outlaw lobbyists?


----------



## dblack (Aug 12, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Why not use government to outlaw lobbyists?


Well, you said government is controlled by corporations, so how's that gonna work?


----------



## dblack (Aug 12, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Freedom is best advanced through one person one vote.


Yeah? How so?


georgephillip said:


> Capitalism prefers one dollar one vote.


Yep. That's the way a free market works. Good observation.


georgephillip said:


>


I don't ever read your meme nonsense. I've seen more than enough "multimedia" communist propaganda.


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 12, 2021)

JustAGuy1 said:


> How will you convince me to give up my money "for the greater" good? You'll need a weapon.


How many guns do you control?



IRS Criminal Division Identified $2.3 Billion in Tax Fraud in 2020

StackPath


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 12, 2021)

dblack said:


> Life will be so much easier when government controls every-fucking-thing


"Life will be even easier when Libertarians admit private tyrannies are an even greater threat to individual liberties than government. 

"Society will either be controlled by corporations or by democratically elected representatives. 

"The only realistic non-violent alternative to our current corporately controlled government is to elect representatives who serve individual liberties instead of corporate profits.


----------



## dblack (Aug 12, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Life will be even easier when Libertarians admit private tyrannies are an even greater threat to individual liberties than government.



If, and when, "private tyrannies" can arrest, imprison, and/or kill me if I defy them, I'll admit that.



> Society will either be controlled by corporations or by democratically elected representatives.



Society should be "controlled" by neither. You forget the uniquely American premise that government is the servant of the people - not the master.



> The only realistic non-violent alternative to our current corporately controlled government is to elect representatives who serve individual liberties instead of corporate profits.



You still haven't addressed the core contradiction of your view: "Government is controlled by corporations, thus we need more government."


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Aug 12, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "Life will be even easier when Libertarians admit private tyrannies are an even greater threat to individual liberties than government.
> 
> "Society will either be controlled by corporations or by democratically elected representatives.
> 
> "The only realistic non-violent alternative to our current corporately controlled government is to elect representatives who serve individual liberties instead of corporate profits.




The amusing thing is it is the right who is pushing back against Corporate tyranny from Apple, Facebook, Twitter, Google while you collectivist goons protect and promote their abuses of basic liberty.

The reality is that you're a Nazi. You love corporations that are embedded and entwined with your Reich. Facebook and the DNC are conjoined twins.


----------



## dblack (Aug 12, 2021)

Uncensored2008 said:


> The amusing thing is it is the right who is pushing back against Corporate tyranny from Apple, Facebook, Twitter, Google while you collectivist goons protect and promote their abuses of basic liberty.


See - you guys are on the same side. Why you gotta argue?


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Aug 12, 2021)

dblack said:


> See - you guys are on the same side. Why you gotta argue?



What side is that?

BTW, you must be sober today, you almost seem like the old DBlack....


----------



## Soupnazi630 (Aug 12, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "Life will be even easier when Libertarians admit private tyrannies are an even greater threat to individual liberties than government.
> 
> "Society will either be controlled by corporations or by democratically elected representatives.
> 
> "The only realistic non-violent alternative to our current corporately controlled government is to elect representatives who serve individual liberties instead of corporate profits.


There are no private tyrannies so there is no such threat.


----------



## WTH_Progs? (Aug 12, 2021)

DigitalDrifter said:


> Capitalism is what made America the greatest most powerful nation of all time. PERIOD!!



Capitalism + freedom


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 12, 2021)

dblack said:


> f, and when, "private tyrannies" can arrest, imprison, and/or kill me if I defy them, I'll admit that.


*You should probably discuss that with Steven Donziger who has spent over two years of house arrest AFTER DOJ prosecutors refused to file charges.*

This Attorney Took On Chevron. Then Chevron-Linked Judges and Private Prosecutors Had Him Locked Up.

After spending more than 700 days under house arrest, a human rights and environmental lawyer was found guilty last month of criminal contempt in a legal saga that has demonstrated the deep-rooted conflicts of interest layered throughout the judicial system when it comes to climate justice. 

"In Steven Donziger’s conviction, the initial judge who referred him to trial, the second judge who was asked to lead the trial, and the private prosecutors who tried him all had deep ties to Chevron, the company Donzinger had won a landmark multibillion-dollar ruling against."


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 12, 2021)

Uncensored2008 said:


> Socialism and Communism is all about enslaving the vast majority of the population. Socialism views people as parts in the machine of the state, disposable and with no intrinsic worth.


Where did US capitalism come from, Slave?


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 12, 2021)

Uncensored2008 said:


> The irony of a Marxist sending me to a Nazi site that is behind a pay wall.


When did the NYT become NAZI?




Got yours yet?


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 12, 2021)

OKTexas said:


> Learn the damn language you incompetent commie asshole, labor is what a person's effort produces, not what they are. Sounds to me it's you with a slave mentality.


*Human labor is not a commodity anywhere profit isn't elevated over the general welfare*

Labour power - Wikipedia
Definition[edit]

"Karl Marx introduces the concept in chapter 6 of the first volume of _Capital_, as follows:

"'By labour-power or capacity for labour is to be understood the aggregate of those mental and physical capabilities existing in a human being, which he exercises whenever he produces a use-value of any description.[2]

"He adds further on that:

"'Labour-power, however, becomes a reality only by its exercise; it sets itself in action only by working. But thereby a definite quantity of human muscle, nerve. brain, &c., is wasted, and these require to be restored.'"


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 12, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Marx was a whiney failure.....I see why you like him.


*Marx was a genius
You're a brainless troll
I see why you're bitter.* 

Karl Marx - Wikipedia

"Marx has been described as one of the most influential figures in human history, and his work has been both lauded and criticised.[17] 

"His work in economics laid the basis for some current theories about labour and its relation to capital.[18][19][20] 

"Many intellectuals, labour unions, artists, and political parties worldwide have been influenced by Marx's work, with many modifying or adapting his ideas. *Marx is typically cited as one of the principal architects of modern social science."*


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 12, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Marx was a genius



That's why every nation that tried Marxism........failed.


----------



## OKTexas (Aug 12, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Human labor is not a commodity anywhere profit isn't elevated over the general welfare*
> 
> Labour power - Wikipedia
> Definition[edit]
> ...




Run along commie, you're a waste of good oxygen. The only thing that needs to happen when you start quoting marx, is you getting covid and dying.

.


----------



## dblack (Aug 12, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *You should probably discuss that with Steven Donziger who has spent over two years of house arrest AFTER DOJ prosecutors refused to file charges.*
> 
> This Attorney Took On Chevron. Then Chevron-Linked Judges and Private Prosecutors Had Him Locked Up.
> 
> ...


I told you, I don't read all the quotes and memes and links you post. If you have something to say, you'll need to put it in your own words.


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Aug 12, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Where did US capitalism come from, Slave?



You really are a dumb one.

BASIC concept, retard George.

Capitalism, the voluntary exchange of goods or services for compensation.

Slavery is neither voluntary nor does it involve exchange, fucktard.


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Aug 12, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> When did the NYT become NAZI?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The Voice of the Reich?

I think they became Nazi about 1928.

{
At the outbreak of the Second World War, _The_ _New York Times_ bureau chief in Berlin, Guido Enderis, was known to sit in the bar of the city’s famous Adlon Hotel spouting “a loudmouthed defense of Nazism,” eventually provoking another reporter to complain to the _Times_’ publisher: “Isn’t it about time that _The_ _New York Times_ did something about its Nazi correspondent?”
But the _Times_ had no intention of doing anything about Enderis. In fact, it valued his close connections to the Nazi government, as it had throughout the 1930s. All American newspapers found reporting in Nazi Germany difficult. The government tightly controlled information and harangued and threatened reporters who managed to publish what it didn’t like. The Nazi regime also didn’t hesitate to use its strongest weapons—banning a newspaper from distribution in Germany, kicking a reporter out of the country, or denying a reporter’s reentry. As a putatively “Jewish-owned” newspaper, _The_ _New York Times_ considered itself a special target. Bureau chief Enderis’ job therefore was “administering reasonably soothing syrup” to Nazi officials, as another _Times_ reporter put it.}









						The New York Times’ ‘Nazi Correspondent’
					

As Adolf Hitler rose to power in Germany and then embarked on his program of world conquest and mass extermination, The New York Times’ Berlin bureau chief was busy slanting the news in his favor




					www.tabletmag.com


----------



## j-mac (Aug 12, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *How do you transmit, test, and expand knowledge without free speech?*
> 
> On Freedom of Expression and Campus Speech Codes | AAUP
> 
> ...


Nice words, but we both know they are empty on campus.


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 13, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> The poor and middle class do so much better when the banks fail, eh comrade?












​

*"February 24, 2021 Update: US Billionaire Wealth Grows $1.3 trillion Since Mid-March 2020.*

"As the US crosses the threshold of half a million deaths from the Covid pandemic, the nation’s billionaires continue to reap extraordinary financial gains.  

*"After 11 months of pandemic misery, where millions have lost their jobs, health and wealth, total US billionaire wealth increased $1.3 trillion since mid-March, 2020, an increase of 44 percent."*

Updates: Billionaire Wealth, U.S. Job Losses and Pandemic Profiteers


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 13, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> ​
> 
> *"February 24, 2021 Update: US Billionaire Wealth Grows $1.3 trillion Since Mid-March 2020.*
> 
> ...



Wait, people who own stocks make money when stocks go up in price?

Makes you feel even dumber for never owning any stocks, eh?


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 13, 2021)

Pellinore said:


> This story should get a LOT more coverage than it does. Orban is a vicious, extremist autocrat who is stamping out the democracy in his own nation in plain sight, and our supposedly-conservative popular leaders are crawling around his feet


*I'm old enough to have watched two conservative buffoons con enough voters to win the White House. Reagan and Trump served right-wing oligarchs while claiming they only wanted to "make America great again." There is a long history here of reactionary business interests using such rhetoric to dismantle Democratic institutions, and Carlson appears to be willing to follow along:*

Why Carlson’s Alliance With Hungarian Fascism Matters

"Carlson’s endorsement of the Orbán administration is not just a mainstreaming of Orbán’s politics, but a signal of what kind of society Carlson, along with other Trump supporters and the January 6 rioters, would like to see in the United States. 

"Unlike other European far-right parties like the French National Rally or the Alternative for Germany, Orbán enjoys relatively unchecked power. 

"The coalition between Orbán’s ruling Fidesz party and the Christian Democrats holds 133 out of 199 seats in the National Assembly, making the opposition effectively powerless (*Reuters*, 4/7/18; *Guardian*, 4/8/18). 

"And some of the opposition isn’t friendly to democracy either, as the largest minority faction is Jobbik, which many see as an outright Nazi party (*Independent*, 4/8/14)."


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 13, 2021)

boedicca said:


> Yes, I've read Zuboff's book and have seen her interviewed a few times. What she has warned us about is getting worse.


*And I suspect a huge majority of Americans have never considered how a behavioral futures market could affect future.*

Harvard professor says surveillance capitalism is undermining democracy

"We rushed to the internet expecting empowerment, the democratization of knowledge, and help with real problems, *but surveillance capitalism really was just too lucrative to resist.* 

"This economic logic has now spread beyond the tech companies to new surveillance–based ecosystems in virtually every economic sector, from insurance to automobiles to health, education, finance, to every product described as 'smart' and every service described as 'personalized.'"


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 13, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> You never explained, what does an economy borrow from?


Parasites who get rich from dodging their tax liabilities.


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 13, 2021)

Soupnazi630 said:


> Yes that is true. The fact is all humans ( or any other organism ) must work or starve.
> 
> Capitalism gives you the freedom to work OR starve. Collectivists systems enslave you to work AND starve.


Humans have always had to work or starve, but it has only been about five thousand years when the vast majority were required by rich parasites to work and starve to pay for luxury for a few and misery for the many. Capitalism is slavery by another name.


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Aug 13, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Humans have always had to work or starve, but it has only been about five thousand years when the vast majority were required by rich parasites to work and starve to pay for luxury for a few and misery for the many. Capitalism is slavery by another name.



But socialism lets humans work AND starve for their Oligarch masters.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 13, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Parasites who get rich from dodging their tax liabilities.



What name does the economy use on the loan documents?


----------



## Soupnazi630 (Aug 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Humans have always had to work or starve, but it has only been about five thousand years when the vast majority were required by rich parasites to work and starve to pay for luxury for a few and misery for the many. Capitalism is slavery by another name.


Wrong.

Capitalism has uplifted more out of poverty than any other system or idea.

Collectivist ideas fail 

Capitalism is not slavery because it places the burden of consent on the individual. By contrast ALL collectivist systems impose authority on others dictating what they will worlk for and how which IS SLAVERY.

You are proven wrong


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 14, 2021)

dblack said:


> Sitting at core of the socialist mindset is a fixation on democracy - the idea that anything and everything should be decided by majority rule. That's my main beef with socialism.


*Your mindset is on the fringe politically.
Most people understand democracy begins in the workplace*.




"As with all political ideas exist on spectrum, with a majority of people in the center and only a small minority on either extreme. Contrary to its portrayal in the media, Democratic Socialism or Social Democracy rests near the center of the political spectrum."

City of South Fulton, GA - Councilman khalid Explains Democratic Socialism


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 14, 2021)

kaz said:


> No, capitalism isn't tyranny of the majority.


*Capitalism is the tyranny of capital.
It's when rich parasites obstruct the will of the majority.*

https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf (P.6)

"Capitalism and democracy can easily conflict in two situations: If the distribution and use of property rights lead to an accumulation of wealth large enough to hinder politics through capitalist pressure, and if democratic decisions are taken to massively limit the use of property rights. 

"Weighing the two against each other, it is generally the case that rights to property and use of capital should be limited and regulated by democratic governments if they threaten to overshadow or transform democratic decisions in the political sphere."


----------



## Soupnazi630 (Aug 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Your mindset is on the fringe politically.
> Most people understand democracy begins in the workplace*.
> 
> 
> ...


Wrong.

Most people disagree with you.

Democracy has no place in the workplace. It is a matter of consent between employee and employer or it is force and slavery.

Socialism of anyu description is far left.


----------



## 22lcidw (Aug 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Humans have always had to work or starve, but it has only been about five thousand years when the vast majority were required by rich parasites to work and starve to pay for luxury for a few and misery for the many. Capitalism is slavery by another name.


Agreed. The Constitution says not a word about Capitalism. And not a word about Communism and Socialism. It says Freedom. We have to separate these things but we are not. Our nation compared to others has been a wide open one. It tells us what a real currency is. Gold and Silver backed dollars. That was changed in 1913. Over each generation the times changed a bit. Industrialists in everything for us to live a better life became the norm a century after our Independence. The factories and the working by employees were primitive for a period of years. But many millions and millions more provided for their families back then. We move to different eras. We are a few eras later now to make this short. However we are letting the fiat currency control our future and way of live today. And that means there are people privileged to making good salaries, pensions and modern benefits depending on their job classifications and compared to others who may be smarter and better.


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 14, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *It's inconceivable to me to imagine capitalists will ever voluntarily give up their "free lunch" of private profits subsidized by socialized costs.*
> 
> Any specifics? Which private profits? What socialized cost?







"The (S & L) problem began during the era's volatile interest rate climate, stagflation, and slow growth of the 1970s and ended with a total cost of $160 billion; $132 billion of which was borne by taxpayers."

Savings and Loan Crisis – S&L Crisis Definition


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "The (S & L) problem began during the era's volatile interest rate climate, stagflation, and slow growth of the 1970s and ended with a total cost of $160 billion; $132 billion of which was borne by taxpayers."
> 
> Savings and Loan Crisis – S&L Crisis Definition



So $160 billion in the history of the country?


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 14, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> When was the last time there was no debt? Post the year


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


>



You think the planet is 6000 years old?


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 14, 2021)

struth said:


> and capitalism helped end slavery, meanwhile your pals in china literally have slaves picking cotton today


Any capitalists in China?


----------



## struth (Aug 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Any capitalists in China?


i’m sure there might be, but they are being oppressed by the leftist regime.


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 14, 2021)

HappyJoy said:


> Why anyone would choose to believe we are not a democracy is astounding.


*Capitalism is crashing for the third time in this century, and the fascists are crawling from beneath their rocks, just like 1933:*




"The *Business Plot *(also called the *Wall Street Putsch*[1] and *The White House Putsch*) was a political conspiracy in 1933 in the United States to overthrow the government of President Franklin D. Roosevelt and install a dictator.[2] Retired Marine Corps Major General Smedley Butler asserted that wealthy businessmen were plotting to create a fascist veterans' organization with Butler as its leader and use it in a coup d'état to overthrow Roosevelt."

Business Plot - Wikipedia


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 14, 2021)

dblack said:


> False dichotomy. Try again.


Between  democracy and oligarchy?
I can think of one other option


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 14, 2021)

K9Buck said:


> Please provide a link for the material that you pasted. Thanks


"Rent-seeking is a concept in economics that states that an individual or an entity seeks to increase their own wealth without creating any benefits or wealth to the society."

Rent-seeking - Definition, Common Examples, and Tullok Paradox


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 14, 2021)

struth said:


> unfortuately that theory has never actually happened. Leftist regimes never give up their power


When have creditor oligarchs ever given up their power?


----------



## struth (Aug 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> When have creditor oligarchs ever given up their power?


in bankruptcy court.  Creditors routinely work out something with the debtors 

and just a reminder they are debtors because they borrowed something from the creditor.

paying someone back really isn’t that hard of a concept…and the right thing to do


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 14, 2021)

HappyJoy said:


> In other words. Capitalism really is an ideology. I'm sure @Deplorable Yankee will thank you for educating him after he gets up off the floor.


I think capitalism has become a religion in America, so I suspect very few conservatives on this board are willing to consider any possible economic surrogates:


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 14, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Private banks did it until 1914


*What changed at that time?*

History of U.S. Money Creation - AFJM

"Economic booms and busts prevailed throughout the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. This eventually prompted a study of the U.S. money and banking systems, which resulted in the passage of the Federal Reserve Act in 1913. 

"Rather than address the root causes of the instability, this legislation *established the Federal Reserve System as a privately owned central bank with twelve regional banks serving several thousand member banks, also privately owned."*


----------



## Soupnazi630 (Aug 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> I think capitalism has become a religion in America, so I suspect very few conservatives on this board are willing to consider any possible economic surrogates:


It is not a religion it is simple historic fact that it works best and your surrogates always fail


----------



## bripat9643 (Aug 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Even after precipitating the biggest economic downturn since the Great Depression, finance capitalism is just as corrupt as it has ever been:*
> View attachment 524269
> "On July 21, 2010, the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act (Dodd-Frank Act) became the law of the United States.
> 
> ...


What the fuck is "finance capitalism?"  That certainly isn't an economic term.


----------



## bripat9643 (Aug 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *What changed at that time?*
> 
> History of U.S. Money Creation - AFJM
> 
> ...


What is your point?  Credit manipulation by the Federal Reserve is what caused the banking panic in 1929, Nimrod.


----------



## bripat9643 (Aug 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> I think capitalism has become a religion in America, so I suspect very few conservatives on this board are willing to consider any possible economic surrogates:


Do you believe the law of gravity can change simply by having Congress pass a law against it?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *What changed at that time?*
> 
> History of U.S. Money Creation - AFJM
> 
> ...



_1. Require Congress to exercise its Constitutional power to be the sole creator of all U.S. money, issued debt-free, and to establish a transparent and independent public monetary authority to determine the amount of new money the Treasury will disperse under authority of Congress._

Money isn't issued debt free? Do you pay interest on your FRNs?

_ 
2. End the privilege of commercial banks to create and issue what we use as money._

Create by lending? LOL!

_3. Transfer ownership of the 12 Federal Reserve Banks, and all remaining operations of the Federal Reserve System, to the U.S. Treasury._

The US government doesn't own the Fed?


----------



## HappyJoy (Aug 14, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> What the fuck is "finance capitalism?"  That certainly isn't an economic term.


Why not...I dunno' , google shit before you post.


----------



## bripat9643 (Aug 14, 2021)

HappyJoy said:


> Why not...I dunno' , google shit before you post.


You  google it, asshole.  I'm not the one who used the term.


----------



## HappyJoy (Aug 14, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> You  google it, asshole.  I'm not the one who used the term.


I'm not the one who doesn't know what it means.


----------



## Dragonlady (Aug 14, 2021)

Bush92 said:


> Capitalism is democratic. Each share you own in a company allows you 1 vote per share for who sits on the board of directors.



Capitalism has nothing to do with shareholdings. That’s corporate structure. 

Capitalism is simply an economic system where the means of production is private owned and operated for profit.


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 15, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> During that period the United States economy grew to be the largest and wealthiest on Earth.
> 
> What's "mixed" about it?


Slavery.
Genocide.
Jim Crow
Trump




The American pipe bomb


----------



## bripat9643 (Aug 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Slavery.
> Genocide.
> Jim Crow
> Trump
> ...


How are private banks responsible for slavery, genocide or segregation?

BTW, dumbass, segregation and Jim Crow are the same thing.


----------



## bripat9643 (Aug 15, 2021)

HappyJoy said:


> I'm not the one who doesn't know what it means.


Yes you are, dumbass.  Why did you tell me to google it?


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 15, 2021)

sartre play said:


> So who ever can produce the best lies, one liners, and scream the loudest & keep us divided with party favorites who have less and less knowledge of the job their sent to do; that's who wins?


And they do their best (worst?) work at times of crisis.
Fifty years ago today the "Nixon Shock" put an end to the global economic system that had ruled since the end of WWII.
Capitalism has crashed twice in this century prior to the arrival of Covid-19, and it appears we are very close to a corresponding "Biden Shock."
If so, who wins?


----------



## Soupnazi630 (Aug 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> And they do their best (worst?) work at times of crisis.
> Fifty years ago today the "Nixon Shock" put an end to the global economic system that had ruled since the end of WWII.
> Capitalism has crashed twice in this century prior to the arrival of Covid-19, and it appears we are very close to a corresponding "Biden Shock."
> If so, who wins?


Capitalism has never crashed. Even the great depression was not a crash of capitalism.

On the other hand collectivist systems are by definition a crash of civilization overall


----------



## HappyJoy (Aug 15, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Yes you are, dumbass.  Why did you tell me to google it?


Because it's a term you've never heard before so you just go ahead and assume it must not mean anything. Just keep building that reputation of being the biggest moron on the board.


----------



## bripat9643 (Aug 15, 2021)

HappyJoy said:


> Because it's a term you've never heard before so you just go ahead and assume it must not mean anything. Just keep building that reputation of being the biggest moron on the board.


Wrong.  You told me to google it beecause you're a dumbass who expects other people to do your work for you.


----------



## HappyJoy (Aug 15, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Wrong.  You told me to google it beecause you're a dumbass who expects other people to do your work for you.


No, the googling was for your benefit. I'm just saying, you see a phrase you're unfamiliar with, sometimes (actually always) it's best to just do a little research on the side before admitting you don't know what you're talking about by claiming something doesn't exist just because it's new to you.


----------



## Turtlesoup (Aug 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Capitalism is a criminal enterprise that transforms democracies into oligarchies. It's not hard to guess which political economy brain-dead rat shit like you prefer.*
> 
> https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf
> 
> ...


I'm pretty sure that CAPITALISM has always preceded any and all democracies.  Without capitalism, there is no democracies.


----------



## bripat9643 (Aug 15, 2021)

HappyJoy said:


> No, the googling was for your benefit. I'm just saying, you see a phrase you're unfamiliar with, sometimes (actually always) it's best to just do a little research on the side before admitting you don't know what you're talking about by claiming something doesn't exist just because it's new to you.


I don't need instruction from a dumbass.  I'm perfectly familiar with the term.  It's horseshit propaganda.  I was just giving you a chance to expose your idiocy.


----------



## Turtlesoup (Aug 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *What changed at that time?*
> 
> History of U.S. Money Creation - AFJM
> 
> ...


LOL...the BANKERs, our corrupt bankers including the Rothchild inbreed trash and JP Morgan, wanted the FEDERAL RESERVE to increase their wealth by leveraging US taxpayers and being able to control leveraging on a larger scale, namely to help the Brits and Russia take out Germany.


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 15, 2021)

Soupnazi630 said:


> Capitalism has never crashed. Even the great depression was not a crash of capitalism.


Capitalism has crashed every four to seven years wherever it has surfaced over the past five hundred years. In the US we've seen the dot-com crash in early 2000. Eight years later the sub-prime mortgage market crashed. Today we're dealing with at least three asset classes showing signs of imminent crash which, if it happens, will usher in an age of economic chaos this country has never seen.


----------



## Soupnazi630 (Aug 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Capitalism has crashed every four to seven years wherever it has surfaced over the past five hundred years. In the US we've seenN





georgephillip said:


> Capitalism has crashed every four to seven years wherever it has surfaced over the past five hundred years. In the US we've seen the dot-com crash in early 2000. Eight years later the sub-prime mortgage market crashed. Today we're dealing with at least three asset classes showing signs of imminent crash which, if it happens, will usher in an age of economic chaos this country has never seen.


No it has not/

The events you are describing are no more a crash of capitalism than a car crash is a crash of NASCAR.

Ingtelligent people know this


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 15, 2021)

Soupnazi630 said:


> Customers


How would any customer know how much value has been added to any product they purchase?


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 15, 2021)

dblack said:


> This. Right here. This is the one thing socialists can't, won't, see.


If I purchase any item which I played no part in manufacturing, how would I have any way of knowing how much value workers added to its price?




Value, Price and Profit - Wikipedia


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 15, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> The market.


What kind of market?


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 15, 2021)

Soupnazi630 said:


> Since he lost the popular vote it is clear there was no votyer suppression


That would be true only if US presidential elections were decided on the basis of which candidate won the popular vote. In 2016 Trump lost the popular vote but won in the electoral college due to Republican voter suppression efforts in key swing states.

Revealed: Trump campaign strategy to deter millions of Black Americans from voting in 2016


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How would any customer know how much value has been added to any product they purchase?



How much are customers willing to pay for a product?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> What kind of market?



The free market.


----------



## HappyJoy (Aug 15, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> I don't need instruction from a dumbass.  I'm perfectly familiar with the term.  It's horseshit propaganda.  I was just giving you a chance to expose your idiocy.


Your original post



> What the fuck is "finance capitalism?" That certainly isn't an economic term.



Clearly you didn't have a clue and now as per usual we are stuck with you lying to cover your ass.


----------



## bripat9643 (Aug 15, 2021)

HappyJoy said:


> Your original post
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly you didn't have a clue and now as per usual we are stuck with you lying to cover your ass.


Wrong, dumbass. I know the term is meaningless propaganda conceived by Marxist douchebags.


----------



## bripat9643 (Aug 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> If I purchase any item which I played no part in manufacturing, how would I have any way of knowing how much value workers added to its price?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Subtract the cost of capital and materials, and you get the contribution of labor.


----------



## HappyJoy (Aug 15, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Wrong, dumbass. I know the term is meaningless propaganda conceived by Marxist douchebags.


Oh, then you were lying the first time.


----------



## Soupnazi630 (Aug 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How would any customer know how much value has been added to any product they purchase?


They do not know.

They dictate how much value anything has


----------



## Soupnazi630 (Aug 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> That would be true only if US presidential elections were decided on the basis of which candidate won the popular vote. In 2016 Trump lost the popular vote but won in the electoral college due to Republican voter suppression efforts in key swing states.
> 
> Revealed: Trump campaign strategy to deter millions of Black Americans from voting in 2016


Wrong.

It is true whether he won gthe EC or not.

There qs bno such voter suppression


----------



## Turtlesoup (Aug 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Capitalism has crashed every four to seven years wherever it has surfaced over the past five hundred years. In the US we've seen the dot-com crash in early 2000. Eight years later the sub-prime mortgage market crashed. Today we're dealing with at least three asset classes showing signs of imminent crash which, if it happens, will usher in an age of economic chaos this country has never seen.


Corrupt bananna republics crash all the time under the weight of their own spending and corruption---the biden administration is going to crash our economy.   We have run away inflation now, they will have to raise interest rates---the Carter year bought us double digit interest rates for homes, double digit inflation and double digit unemployment.   We are fucked which is why they want us unarmed and all the illegals and criminals running lose for a distraction.


----------



## MinTrut (Aug 16, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf
> 
> "Capitalism and democracy follow different logics: unequally distributed property rights on the one hand, equal civic and political rights on the other; profit oriented trade within capitalism in contrast to the search for the common good within democracy; debate, compromise and majority decision-making within democratic politics versus hierarchical decision-making by managers and capital owners.
> 
> ...


Some good points; both parties are criminal gangs supporting a soon to be openly fascist state of serfdom for the vast majority; back to the future of the Dark Ages.


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 16, 2021)

MinTrut said:


> Some good points; both parties are criminal gangs supporting a soon to be openly fascist state of serfdom for the vast majority; back to the future of the Dark Ages


The economist Michael Hudson likens our current political economy to Rome's creditor dominant model which produced the initial Dark Age. When ten percent of a population turn the majority into debt slaves, the barbarians find it relatively easy to take control.

Yesterday marked the 50th anniversary of Nixon's decision to unilaterally cancel the direct international convertibility of the US dollar into gold. The last half-century of freely floating fiat currencies probably crashed in 2008 but has survived on government supplied life support until Covid-19.

It appears likely another restructuring of capitalism is necessary if creditors are to continue profiting from the best government money can buy?

The DNA of Western civilization is financially unstable | Michael Hudson




*"This overgrowth of debt is also destabilizing today’s U.S. and other financialized economies. Banking and financial interests have broken free of tax liability since 1980, and are enriching themselves not by helping the overall economy grow and raising living standards, but just the opposite: by getting the bulk of society into debt to themselves."*


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 16, 2021)

Turtlesoup said:


> Corrupt bananna republics crash all the time under the weight of their own spending and corruption---the biden administration is going to crash our economy


Imho, the US and global economy will crash on Biden's watch, and he is responsible for implementing many of the neoliberal economic policies responsible for our current condition which began to take hold under Reagan, Bush I, and Clinton.

Global capitalism has been restructured three times over the past century, 1908-1917, 1944-53, and 1979-86 with the latest being referred to as the neoliberal restructuring. It crashed in 2008 and has been on government life support ever since. Then came Trump and Covid.

Whatever comes next will likely continue to impoverish millions in order to produce even more billionaire parasites like Trump and their political puppets like Biden.




American's Asleep At the Wheel Driving Into Debt Slavery :: The Market Oracle ::


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 16, 2021)

Soupnazi630 said:


> Germany is an inferior and backwards state. Not a good example. The reason for that outsourcing was too much interference from government.


*You know nothing about Germany:*

Economy of Germany - Wikipedia

"The *economy of Germany* is a highly developed social market economy.[20] It has the largest national economy in Europe, the fourth-largest by nominal GDP in the world, and fifth by GDP (PPP). In 2017, the country accounted for 28% of the euro area economy according to the International Monetary Fund"

*Germany doesn't enslave its workers in medical or student debt thereby reducing the cost of living and doing business unlike the US which is rapidly transforming itself into a nation of debt slaves.*


----------



## Turtlesoup (Aug 16, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Imho, the US and global economy will crash on Biden's watch, and he is responsible for implementing many of the neoliberal economic policies responsible for our current condition which began to take hold under Reagan, Bush I, and Clinton.
> 
> Global capitalism has been restructured three times over the past century, 1908-1917, 1944-53, and 1979-86 with the latest being referred to as the neoliberal restructuring. It crashed in 2008 and has been on government life support ever since. Then came Trump and Covid.
> 
> ...


Biden is Trump's puppet?  Seriously.......


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 16, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The economist Michael Hudson likens our current political economy to Rome's creditor dominant model which produced the initial Dark Age. When ten percent of a population turn the majority into debt slaves, the barbarians find it relatively easy to take control.
> 
> Yesterday marked the 50th anniversary of Nixon's decision to unilaterally cancel the direct international convertibility of the US dollar into gold. The last half-century of freely floating fiat currencies probably crashed in 2008 but has survived on government supplied life support until Covid-19.
> 
> ...



The MARXIST economist Michael Hudson.........


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 16, 2021)

Turtlesoup said:


> No--we were always supposed to be a republic. Democracies are mob rule and our founders hated the mob and thought most people were idiots.


*Included among those founders were slave holding oligarchs who believed they were entitled hoard vast fortunes acquired through free labor and free land. Their fiscal descendants are engaged in similar tactics today on a much grander scale, and democracy is the only non-violent option society has to address those crimes:*

Global Billionaire Pandemic Wealth Gains Surge to $5.5 Trillion - Inequality.org

"'The surge in global billionaire wealth as millions of people have lost their lives and livelihoods is a sickness that countries can no longer bear,' said Morris Pearl, former managing director at Blackrock and chair of the Patriotic Millionaires. 'Rich people getting endlessly richer is not good for anyone. Our economies are choking on this hoarded resource that could be serving a much greater purpose. Billionaires need to cough up that cash ball ―and governments need to make them do it by taxing their wealth.'"


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 16, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "'The surge in global billionaire wealth as millions of people have lost their lives and livelihoods is a sickness that countries can no longer bear,'



LOL!


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 16, 2021)

westwall said:


> Venezuela, right now, is starving. Your socialist Mecca is witnessing the largest mass starvation in decades.


*When did Venezuela nationalize its banks, before or after the US and UK stole its gold?*

Bank of England tears up its Gold Custody contract with Venezuela’s central bank

_"The reasons put forward by official sources in the Reuters and Times articles for why Venezuela can’t withdraw its gold from the Bank of England are clearly bogus. The more logical and likely explanation is that the US, through the White House, US Treasury and State Department have been liaising with the British Foreign office and HM Treasury to put pressure on the Bank of England to delay and push back on Venezuela’s gold withdrawal request.”_


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 16, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *When did Venezuela nationalize its banks, before or after the US and UK stole its gold?*
> 
> Bank of England tears up its Gold Custody contract with Venezuela’s central bank
> 
> _"The reasons put forward by official sources in the Reuters and Times articles for why Venezuela can’t withdraw its gold from the Bank of England are clearly bogus. The more logical and likely explanation is that the US, through the White House, US Treasury and State Department have been liaising with the British Foreign office and HM Treasury to put pressure on the Bank of England to delay and push back on Venezuela’s gold withdrawal request.”_



*When did Venezuela nationalize its banks,
*
2010.


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 17, 2021)

MisterBeale said:


> Ground-rents are a still more proper subject of taxation than the rent of houses. A tax upon ground-rents would not raise the rents of houses. It would fall altogether upon the owner of the ground-rent, who acts always as a monopolist, and exacts the greatest rent which can be got for the use of his ground.


*Your link:*




"A supply and demand diagram showing the effects of land value taxation in which burden of the tax is entirely on the landowner when the tax is implemented. The rental price of land does not change and there is no deadweight loss."

Georgism - Wikipedia

*I wonder if George's singular focus on ground rent to the exclusion of all other forms of monopoly income represents what many of his critics view as his almost unconditional support of capital in general?

https://michael-hudson.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/0801GeorgesCritics.pdf*


----------



## MisterBeale (Aug 17, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Your link:*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's really an unknown variable isn't it?

We are making the assumption that monopolies would form after the imposition of such a systemic change.


----------



## theHawk (Aug 17, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> sorry but youre wrong,,
> we are a constitutional republic,,


Not anymore.  A stolen election means we are in fact not a constitutional republic anymore.  We are now ruled by the oligarchs of leftwing fascism.


----------



## theHawk (Aug 17, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf
> 
> "Capitalism and democracy follow different logics: unequally distributed property rights on the one hand, equal civic and political rights on the other; profit oriented trade within capitalism in contrast to the search for the common good within democracy; debate, compromise and majority decision-making within democratic politics versus hierarchical decision-making by managers and capital owners.
> 
> ...


Why don’t you just call yourself GeorgeTheCommunist?


----------



## progressive hunter (Aug 17, 2021)

theHawk said:


> Not anymore.  A stolen election means we are in fact not a constitutional republic anymore.  We are now ruled by the oligarchs of leftwing fascism.


I dont see it that way,,


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 17, 2021)

struth said:


> china is Germany’s biggest trading partner. try again


What does that matter? German workers with voting rights sit on the boards of directors of the corporations they work for. Hence, their jobs didn't migrate to China when millions of US jobs did. The fact Germany and China trade with one another has nothing to do with German jobs staying in Germany.


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 17, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> How are people who produce a product that you purchase voluntarily "parasites."


*Because they don't adequately reimburse the society that makes their earnings possible. *

Covid Recession Year One: Who Gained? Who Lost? - CounterPunch.org

"Reports just released in recent days reveal 89% of the Fortune 500 companies increased their revenue this latest quarter (April-June 2021) by no less than 24.7% over the same quarter in 2020 when the Covid induced recession began.

"That 24.7% revenue explosion compares, by the way, to an average quarterly revenue gain of 4.5% over the past 5 (non-recession) years; and 3.4% average over the preceding 10 years after the last official recession ended in 2009."


----------



## struth (Aug 17, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> What does that matter? German workers with voting rights sit on the boards of directors of the corporations they work for. Hence, their jobs didn't migrate to China when millions of US jobs did. The fact Germany and China trade with one another has nothing to do with German jobs staying in Germany.


um yeah german jobs went to china hence what that highlights  German companies also send millions and invest millions into manufacturing in China 

not sure what you mean. about german workers with voting rights sit on the boards…


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 17, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> 89% of the Fortune 500 companies increased their revenue this latest quarter (April-June 2021) by no less than 24.7% over the same quarter in 2020 when the Covid induced recession began.



It's amazing what ending lockdowns will do for corporate revenues.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 17, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Because they don't adequately reimburse the society that makes their earnings possible. *
> 
> Covid Recession Year One: Who Gained? Who Lost? - CounterPunch.org
> 
> ...



*Because they don't adequately reimburse the society that makes their earnings possible.*

Don't adequately reimburse? DURR!

Feel free to not work for them, use their products or buy their stock.


----------



## westwall (Aug 17, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> What does that matter? German workers with voting rights sit on the boards of directors of the corporations they work for. Hence, their jobs didn't migrate to China when millions of US jobs did. The fact Germany and China trade with one another has nothing to do with German jobs staying in Germany.







The fuck they didn't.  Go into any German hardware store and virtually everything is made in china.  Are you truly this stupid or do you have ZERO international travel experience?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 17, 2021)

westwall said:


> The fuck they didn't.  Go into any German hardware store and virtually everything is made in china.  Are you truly this stupid or do you have ZERO international travel experience?



He's truly stupid.


----------



## westwall (Aug 17, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> He's truly stupid.





Sure seems that way, doesn't it


----------



## bripat9643 (Aug 17, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Because they don't adequately reimburse the society that makes their earnings possible. *



First, it's meaningless to claim "society" makes their earnings possible.  They make the earnings of society possible, and it certainly isn't government that makes their earnings possible.​


georgephillip said:


> Covid Recession Year One: Who Gained? Who Lost? - CounterPunch.org
> 
> "Reports just released in recent days reveal 89% of the Fortune 500 companies increased their revenue this latest quarter (April-June 2021) by no less than 24.7% over the same quarter in 2020 when the Covid induced recession began.



What does COVID have to do with anything?


georgephillip said:


> "That 24.7% revenue explosion compares, by the way, to an average quarterly revenue gain of 4.5% over the past 5 (non-recession) years; and 3.4% average over the preceding 10 years after the last official recession ended in 2009."


So?  I think the only thing your demonstrating is your naked envy.


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 18, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> The US government is the biggest debtor in the universe







Eating out with a friend during COVID19 and an MMT discussion | My Desultory Blog


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 18, 2021)

struth said:


> If the money isn’t paid in taxes to the govt they are still spending it in the economy. duh


If the money isn't paid in taxes, it is borrowed from the richest Americans who then WHINE about saddling future generations with debt THEIR descendants earn interest on.


----------



## bripat9643 (Aug 18, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Eating out with a friend during COVID19 and an MMT discussion | My Desultory Blog


How does your bogus chart contradict what I said?


----------



## dblack (Aug 18, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> How does your bogus chart contradict what I said?



"Beats me. My handler just said to post as many of these propaganda memes as possible".


----------



## Correll (Aug 18, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Eating out with a friend during COVID19 and an MMT discussion | My Desultory Blog




Why not "if carter" or " if Johnson" or "if Obama"?


----------



## Correll (Aug 18, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> If the money isn't paid in taxes, it is borrowed from the richest Americans who then WHINE about saddling future generations with debt THEIR descendants earn interest on.




The borrowing is from those that buy bonds. Support your claim that it is the "richest" that buys them.


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 18, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Solution to the fact that you're a deadbeat?


Not as much as you and


----------



## struth (Aug 18, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> If the money isn't paid in taxes, it is borrowed from the richest Americans who then WHINE about saddling future generations with debt THEIR descendants earn interest on.


the Govt doesn’t borrow money from americans…rich or anyone else 

money that is no paid in taxes to the Govt is used by individuals in the economy…buying homes, paying rent, buying food, etc


----------



## 22lcidw (Aug 18, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> If the money isn't paid in taxes, it is borrowed from the richest Americans who then WHINE about saddling future generations with debt THEIR descendants earn interest on.


Like most Americans I am in the peasant class. I can agree with you and have in most agendas. But like many who get empowered, the same drill ensues and the same mistakes happen. And that is where I disconnect with you. So what do we do? Support a thousand women having babies out of wedlock, pushing it as a right and benefit or let a rich guy keep some more of his money and not pay for it. And with that purchasing items a richer person will do. That employees people to design and acquire parts and build those items. So reducing the amount of sluts and increasing the amount of employees is a double bonus for a rising nation. But alas, we are a declining one.


----------



## bripat9643 (Aug 18, 2021)

Correll said:


> The borrowing is from those that buy bonds. Support your claim that it is the "richest" that buys them.


Mostly institutional investors.  You know, like Grandma's pension.


----------



## bripat9643 (Aug 18, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Not as much as you and


Biden already has a $3 trillion deficit, and he's only been in office for 6 months.


----------



## Correll (Aug 18, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Mostly institutional investors.  You know, like Grandma's pension.




Oh, I know that. You know that. He knows that. But he won't admit it. This is all about demonizing the Rich.


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 18, 2021)

Tom Paine 1949 said:


> It has also of course unleashed tremendous productive forces and encouraged scientific and technological advances. The issue for humanity is … where is it leading us now?


Capitalism rewards greed like no prior economic system. Unfortunately, the surplus tends to concentrate in fewer and fewer hands with each passing generation. In answer to your question about where it's leading, the obvious answer in myu mind is debt serfdom and financial oligarchy.

Latvia or Iceland seem reasonable prospects for America's future if we allow financial managers and short-term speculators to impose flat taxes of 59% on labor while continuing to un-tax property.

The political conflict between democracy and oligarch today has a creditor/debtor contest for control at its center. With 95% of Americans in debt to the richest 5% who control government through a combination of campaign contributions and ownership of mainstream media, one of the big political fights of the 21st century appears to revolve around the fact that debts which can't be repaid won't be repaid, and whether creditors or debtors absorb the losses?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 18, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Capitalism rewards greed like no prior economic system. Unfortunately, the surplus tends to concentrate in fewer and fewer hands with each passing generation.



Unlike communism.
The Castros and Chavez were very few hands, eh comrade?


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 18, 2021)

Soupnazi630 said:


> How much is enough and what standards do you go by to decide?


----------



## westwall (Aug 18, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Capitalism rewards greed like no prior economic system. Unfortunately, the surplus tends to concentrate in fewer and fewer hands with each passing generation. In answer to your question about where it's leading, the obvious answer in myu mind is debt serfdom and financial oligarchy.
> 
> Latvia or Iceland seem reasonable prospects for America's future if we allow financial managers and short-term speculators to impose flat taxes of 59% on labor while continuing to un-tax property.
> 
> The political conflict between democracy and oligarch today has a creditor/debtor contest for control at its center. With 95% of Americans in debt to the richest 5% who control government through a combination of campaign contributions and ownership of mainstream media, one of the big political fights of the 21st century appears to revolve around the fact that debts which can't be repaid won't be repaid, and whether creditors or debtors absorb the losses?







Stalin was one of the richest men ever.  How exactly did he get there?  Chavez, and now maduro, are billionaires in a country that is quite literally starving.  How did they manage that?

You are one stupid motherfucker is all i can say.  Move to venezuela.  i'll pay your one way plane ticket.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 18, 2021)

georgephillip said:


>



I agree, 25% is enough.


----------



## Soupnazi630 (Aug 19, 2021)

georgephillip said:


>


That is not an answer

Answer the questions.


----------



## gipper (Aug 19, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> I agree, 25% is enough.


Except that we know the billionaires often pay nothing and usually less than 5%. You know this right?  I’ve informed you on this topic. Did you forget?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 19, 2021)

gipper said:


> Except that we know the billionaires often pay nothing



It's true, the tax owed on $0 income is zero.

*and usually less than 5%.*

Are you talking about "True Tax"?  Because that's hilarious!

*I’ve informed you on this topic. Did you forget?*

No, I didn't forget your ignorant whining on the topic.


----------



## gipper (Aug 19, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> It's true, the tax owed on $0 income is zero.
> 
> *and usually less than 5%.*
> 
> ...


Yes the old canard dumb cons use…it’s on income silly they like to say…not understanding the purposeful set up for the rich’s benefit.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 19, 2021)

gipper said:


> it’s on income silly they like to say



Yeah, income tax only on income.

*not understanding the purposeful set up for the riches benefit.*

Yup, set up since 1913.


----------



## gipper (Aug 19, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Yeah, income tax only on income.
> 
> *not understanding the purposeful set up for the riches benefit.*
> 
> Yup, set up since 1913.


Yeah that makes it right, thinks the dumb con.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 19, 2021)

gipper said:


> Yeah that makes it right, thinks the dumb con.



You should whine some more......capital gains.....waaaah.......

Feel better?


----------



## gipper (Aug 19, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> You should whine some more......capital gains.....waaaah.......
> 
> Feel better?


You should try to think better.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 19, 2021)

gipper said:


> You should try to think better.



With all your whining?


----------



## gipper (Aug 19, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> With all your whining?


With all your ignorance.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 19, 2021)

gipper said:


> With all your ignorance.



Sorry if unrealized capital gains make you cry like a little girl.


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 20, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *When did Venezuela nationalize its banks,*
> 
> 2010.


Factbox: Venezuela's nationalizations under Chavez

"In June 2010, Venezuela took over the mid-sized bank Banco Federal, citing liquidity problems and risk of fraud. The bank was closely linked to anti-government TV station Globovision.

"* In 2009, Chavez paid $1 billion for Banco de Venezuela, a division of Spanish bank Grupo Santander.

"* The government has closed a dozen small banks since November 2009 for what it said were operational irregularities. 

"Some were reopened as state-run firms. 

"Brokerages have also been closed and some employees jailed. 

"Chavez has vowed to nationalize any bank that fails to meet government lending guidelines or is in financial trouble."


----------



## westwall (Aug 20, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Factbox: Venezuela's nationalizations under Chavez
> 
> "In June 2010, Venezuela took over the mid-sized bank Banco Federal, citing liquidity problems and risk of fraud. The bank was closely linked to anti-government TV station Globovision.
> 
> ...







Here's your socialist paradise you retard.  One third of the country is starving while the ruling elite get fat...

One in three Venezuelans not getting enough to eat, UN finds​This article is more than 1 year old

World Food Programme says 9.3m people are food insecure
People struggling for minimum nutrition amid economic crisis









						One in three Venezuelans not getting enough to eat, UN finds
					

World Food Programme says 9.3m people are food insecure, with people struggling for minimum nutrition amid economic crisis




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 20, 2021)

dblack said:


> Nope. Most of them are corporatists.







Do you see how a market with no regulations produces a few select crony-capitalists taking control of regulation-free markets?


----------



## georgephillip (Aug 20, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> That's a good reason to stop using the U.S. dollar as a medium of exchange.


What's your choice?


----------



## dblack (Aug 20, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Do you see how a market with no regulations produces a few select crony-capitalists taking control of regulation-free markets?



Ahh the equivocation game! Who, besides you, is saying that a free market is regulation-free? Free markets depend on property laws at the very least, so you're shadow-boxing.

You don't seem to get what corporatism is either. So here's a link: Corporatism - Wikipedia. And a quote from said link: "*Corporatism* is a political ideology which advocates the organization of society by corporate groups, such as agricultural, labour, military, business, scientific, or guild associations, on the basis of their common interests."


----------



## bripat9643 (Aug 20, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> What's your choice?


Private money, dumbass.  The same kind we had for 150 years.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 20, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Private money, dumbass.  The same kind we had for 150 years.



How many Lehman dollars would you like?


----------



## bripat9643 (Aug 20, 2021)

So instead of a few people going bust, you want everyone to go bust?


----------



## bripat9643 (Aug 20, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> How many Lehman dollars would you like?


I use Bank of America.


----------



## bripat9643 (Aug 20, 2021)

dblack said:


> Ahh the equivocation game! Who, besides you, is saying that a free market is regulation-free? Free markets depend on property laws at the very least, so you're shadow-boxing.
> 
> You don't seem to get what corporatism is either. So here's a link: Corporatism - Wikipedia. And a quote from said link: "*Corporatism* is a political ideology which advocates the organization of society by corporate groups, such as agricultural, labour, military, business, scientific, or guild associations, on the basis of their common interests."


I am, for one.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Aug 20, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> I use Bank of America.



Will they be the only issuer?


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 18, 2021)

*Which is more important capitalism or democracy?

Thom Hartman raised the issue in a recent post:*

Brutal Capitalism: How America is transforming from a democracy to an oligarchy | The Milwaukee Independent

"Some years ago, Trump economic adviser Stephen Moore (before he was Trump’s advisor) was a guest on my radio/TV program. 

"I asked him, 'Which is more important, democracy or capitalism?.

*"Without hesitation, Moore answered, 'Capitalism.'*

"That philosophy (of capitalism being more important than 'We the People' democracy), has held the Republican Party in its thrall for the past 40 years, and has brought America to this moment of great crisis and danger.

*"It has transformed America from a democracy to an oligarchy, and the point of no return is now visible.* 

"And that presents a true crisis for America, because oligarchy is almost always merely a transitional phase in the evolution of full-blown tyranny and/or fascism."





*Democracy is a form of government made by the people for all the people.

Capitalism is a form of governance where a small minority of all the people control the means of production thereby ensuring they decide how any economic surplus will be distributed.

Over time this provides the small minority of society to use a fraction of their share of the economic surplus to control government.*


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 18, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Which is more important capitalism or democracy?
> 
> Thom Hartman raised the issue in a recent post:*
> 
> ...



*Capitalism is a form of governance where a small minority of all the people control the means of production thereby ensuring they decide how any economic surplus will be distributed.*

Economic surplus? LOL!


----------



## dblack (Oct 18, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Which is more important capitalism or democracy?


Capitalism


georgephillip said:


> Democracy is a form of government made by the people for all the people.


Nope. Democracy serves the interests of the majority. Not ALL the people


georgephillip said:


> Capitalism is a form of governance


No, it's not a form governance.


----------



## Dragonlady (Oct 18, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *Capitalism is a form of governance where a small minority of all the people control the means of production thereby ensuring they decide how any economic surplus will be distributed.*
> 
> Economic surplus? LOL!


In short - Wealth.  

I'm not surprised that you missed that.  Your understanding of economics has all the depth of a kiddy wading pool.


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 18, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Which is more important capitalism or democracy?
> 
> Thom Hartman raised the issue in a recent post:*
> 
> ...


Capitalism is more important.  Capitalism is just another word for economic freedom, and that's far more important than choosing a new gang of overseers every couple of years.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 18, 2021)

Dragonlady said:


> In short - Wealth.
> 
> I'm not surprised that you missed that.  Your understanding of economics has all the depth of a kiddy wading pool.



*In short - Wealth.*

Someone other than the business owner should distribute its wealth?

*Your understanding of economics has all the depth of a kiddy wading pool.*

Not like you, eh comrade?


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 18, 2021)

Dragonlady said:


> In short - Wealth.
> 
> I'm not surprised that you missed that.  Your understanding of economics has all the depth of a kiddy wading pool.


There's a difference between a "surplus" and wealth.  In reality, there is no economic surplus.


----------



## Dragonlady (Oct 18, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> There's a difference between a "surplus" and wealth.  In reality, there is no economic surplus.



So you're trying to say there is no wealth.  Without a surplus, you don't have anything to accumulate, and without accumulation, there is no wealth.  

This is the ABC's of economics.  We're not talking rocket science here.


----------



## Thunderbird (Oct 18, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf
> 
> "Capitalism and democracy follow different logics: unequally distributed property rights on the one hand, equal civic and political rights on the other; profit oriented trade within capitalism in contrast to the search for the common good within democracy; debate, compromise and majority decision-making within democratic politics versus hierarchical decision-making by managers and capital owners.
> 
> ...


It’s okay to criticize capitalism, but people who *demonize* capitalism usually want to set up a dictatorship.


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 18, 2021)

Dragonlady said:


> So you're trying to say there is no wealth.  Without a surplus, you don't have anything to accumulate, and without accumulation, there is no wealth.
> 
> This is the ABC's of economics.  We're not talking rocket science here.


It's "surplus" only in the eyes of greedy looters like you.  No one believes anything they own is "surplus," dumbass.

Wealth exists, but there is no such thing as "surplus wealth."  That's purely a Marxist delusion.


----------



## Dragonlady (Oct 18, 2021)

Thunderbird said:


> It’s okay to criticize capitalism, but people who *demonize* capitalism usually want to set up a dictatorship.



Wrong on every score.  The left doesn't "demonize" capitalism.  You have all of these "either/or" fallacies.  "Either you want to build the Wall, or you favour open borders".  "Either you're in favour of 'free market capitalism' or you're a communist".  None of these things are "either/or" scenarios.

"Free Market capitalism" is the basis of everything that is going wrong in the USA at the moment.  It's not socialism that has turned South America into the political hellscape we see today, but rather South America is what happens when you give the country over to free market capitalism.  The poverty, the murder of leftist leaders, the extreme violence, all leading to today's Brazil, where death squads go through the barrios gunning down any male not working, as suspected "gang members".  

Just as communism has failed where ever it's been tried, so have the attempts of the IMF and the World Bank to impose unfettered capitalism on countries seeking financial assistance in the fall of communism, since the early 1990's.  Most countries were quick to discard the IMF imposed economic straight jackets on social spending and worker rights.  But the results are already being seen.  

To no one's surprise, you have authoritarian right wing governments in Venezuela, Chile, Argentina, Brazil, Poland, Hungary, and Russia - all countries which received IMF funding with Milton Friedman's "capitalism on steriods" which imposed Chicago School of Economics economics, labor and social spending doctrines on those countries as a condition to funding.  South Africa is another IMF success story.

Today, the only country in the world still in thrall to Friedman's discredited notions is the USA, which is currently sliding into 2nd world status as a result.  The gap between rich and poor is now widening at the fastest rate in your history, and your declining life expectancy is proof positive of the failure of your current social/economic structures.  

Without a healthy and thriving middle class, your country will continue to decline.  The oligarchs have taken over your economy and are now pushing you into an authoritarian dictatorship.  You're nearly there.


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 18, 2021)

Dragonlady said:


> Wrong on every score.  The left doesn't "demonize" capitalism.  You have all of these "either/or" fallacies.  "Either you want to build the Wall, or you favour open borders".  "Either you're in favour of 'free market capitalism' or you're a communist".  None of these things are "either/or" scenarios.
> 
> "Free Market capitalism" is the basis of everything that is going wrong in the USA at the moment.  It's not socialism that has turned South America into the political hellscape we see today, but rather South America is what happens when you give the country over to free market capitalism.  The poverty, the murder of leftist leaders, the extreme violence, all leading to today's Brazil, where death squads go through the barrios gunning down any male not working, as suspected "gang members".
> 
> ...


_*" The left doesn't "demonize" capitalism."




*_


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 18, 2021)

Dragonlady said:


> Wrong on every score.  The left doesn't "demonize" capitalism.  You have all of these "either/or" fallacies.  "Either you want to build the Wall, or you favour open borders".  "Either you're in favour of 'free market capitalism' or you're a communist".  None of these things are "either/or" scenarios.
> 
> "Free Market capitalism" is the basis of everything that is going wrong in the USA at the moment.  It's not socialism that has turned South America into the political hellscape we see today, but rather South America is what happens when you give the country over to free market capitalism.  The poverty, the murder of leftist leaders, the extreme violence, all leading to today's Brazil, where death squads go through the barrios gunning down any male not working, as suspected "gang members".
> 
> ...



*The left doesn't "demonize" capitalism.*

LOL!

*To no one's surprise, you have authoritarian right wing governments in Venezuela,*

What's right wing about the government in Venezuela?


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 18, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Capitalism is NOT Democratic: Democracy is NOT Capitalist​
> And Communism is not successful.



I agree that capitalism is economic and has nothing to do with governing systems like democracy, theocracy, autocracy, etc.

But all humans always inherently implement communism whenever they get the chance, like all small scales.
That included all families, religious orders, small tribes, etc.

No one has ever allowed communism to be tried on a scale larger than an employee owned company.
Anyone who ever has tried, like Trotsky, was killed by capitalist agents like Stalin.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 18, 2021)

Nostra said:


> The US isn't a Democracy, Dumbass.



True, but when people say "democracy", that is usually short hand intended to imply, "representative, democratic, republic."


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 18, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> I agree that capitalism is economic and has nothing to do with governing systems like democracy, theocracy, autocracy, etc.
> 
> But all humans always inherently implement communism whenever they get the chance, like all small scales.
> That included all families, religious orders, small tribes, etc.
> ...



Stalin wasn't trying communism?


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 18, 2021)

wamose said:


> Yeah, Venezuela and Cuba are much better off with their collective bullshit. Russia and NoKo too. The waiting line for Americans waiting to go to those four countries must stretch for miles.



There is nothing collective, cooperative, or communal about Venezuela, Cuba, Russia, or China.
Is there shared equity among the people and leaders?
No.
Are the leaders motivated for their own profit?
Yes.
Therefore it is CAPITALISM.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 18, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Stalin wasn't trying communism?



No, Stalin was not even aware of what communism or capitalism was.
He was just a bank robber that the party needed in order to gain funding early on.
They made him party secretary, thinking he could then do no harm.
But they forgot that secretaries make lists.
And eventually he killed all those on the list that said "communists".
There was not one single communist that Stalin left alive.
So tell we how Stalin was going to "try communism" after killing every single communist?


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 18, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *The left doesn't "demonize" capitalism.*
> 
> LOL!
> 
> ...



Obviously capitalism is dangerous.
It relies on and enhances materialism, greed, and all the bad emotions that get people to kill and steal from each other.
However, it also promotes innovation and motivation, so it often wins wars. 
So to survive, we need a combination of socialism that allows capitalism, but regulates it enough to prevent abuses like slavery, child labor, etc.
Pure capitalism is pure evil, where if you want something, you just kill whomever has it and take it.
Pure capitalism can never be allowed.

The government in Venezuela is totally right wing, using military force to prevent popular opinions from being implemented, and the wealthy elite getting all the benefits from industry that is supposed to be equitably shared.
That is exactly right wing capitalism.
The only reason why the US does not like it is that it is Venezuelan capitalists getting all the wealth instead of US capitalists.
Capitalists can't even get along with each other.


----------



## progressive hunter (Oct 18, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Obviously capitalism is dangerous.
> It relies on and enhances materialism, greed, and all the bad emotions that get people to kill and steal from each other.
> However, it also promotes innovation and motivation, so it often wins wars.
> So to survive, we need a combination of socialism that allows capitalism, but regulates it enough to prevent abuses like slavery, child labor, etc.
> ...


that has got to be the most uneducated and moronic comment I have ever read,,,


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 18, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *Capitalism is a form of governance where a small minority of all the people control the means of production thereby ensuring they decide how any economic surplus will be distributed.*
> 
> Economic surplus? LOL!



AKA profits.
And the point is that all production actually comes from the efforts of the workers, but since they do not have the necessary surplus capital to invest in the heavy machinery that production these days requires, those with surplus capital can use that to extort unfair share of the profits from production labor.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 18, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> that has got to be the most uneducated and moronic comment I have ever read,,,



It is all in the history books.
All humans were communist/socialists for millions of years, as primitive hunter/gatherers.
It was only about 4000 years ago that in a few places, we started agriculture, had a surplus, caused resources to be considered private, created currency, and started buying and sell the resources people needed in order to survive.

Just look at land prices.
Everyone needs land in order to survive, no one created that land, everyone used to have free use of it, but now an elite minority claim they own it and only rent it to us at a huge profit.


----------



## progressive hunter (Oct 18, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> It is all in the history books.
> All humans were communist/socialists for millions of years, as primitive hunter/gatherers.
> It was only about 4000 years ago that in a few places, we started agriculture, had a surplus, caused resources to be considered private, created currency, and started buying and sell the resources people needed in order to survive.
> 
> ...


not sure what any of that has to do with your ignorant comment??


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 18, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> No, Stalin was not even aware of what communism or capitalism was.



So why did he claim he was doing communism?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 18, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Obviously capitalism is dangerous.
> It relies on and enhances materialism, greed, and all the bad emotions that get people to kill and steal from each other.
> However, it also promotes innovation and motivation, so it often wins wars.
> So to survive, we need a combination of socialism that allows capitalism, but regulates it enough to prevent abuses like slavery, child labor, etc.
> ...



*Obviously capitalism is dangerous.
It relies on and enhances materialism, greed, and all the bad emotions that get people to kill and steal from each other.
However, it also promotes innovation and motivation, so it often wins wars.*

Why do you need innovation under capitalism?
Why not just kill opponents and steal, like under communism?

*The government in Venezuela is totally right wing, using military force to prevent popular opinions from being implemented, and the wealthy elite getting all the benefits from industry that is supposed to be equitably shared.*

Left wing government never uses military force to prevent popular opinions from being implemented, with the wealthy elite getting all the benefits from industry that is supposed to be equitably shared? 

*Capitalists can't even get along with each other.*

Do they have to get along? Why?


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 18, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> not sure what any of that has to do with your ignorant comment??



The point is that historically communism works better and is ingrained in our evolved instincts.
Its efficiency can't be denied.
Just look at how successful Meerkats are, or any communist primates.


----------



## progressive hunter (Oct 18, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> The point is that historically communism works better and is ingrained in our evolved instincts.
> Its efficiency can't be denied.
> Just look at how successful Meerkats are, or any communist primates.


historically communism has failed every single time,,,

my god youre dumber than I thought,,, meerkats and primates?? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA,,


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 18, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> So why did he claim he was doing communism?



Its called PR.
When you are stealing from the people, you do not want them to rebel, so you tell them how lucky they are to have you looking out for their share.
And there was some sharing.
People did get a minimal ensured food and housing consideration, but not like the top capitalists made, like Stalin.


----------



## westwall (Oct 18, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> There is nothing collective, cooperative, or communal about Venezuela, Cuba, Russia, or China.
> Is there shared equity among the people and leaders?
> No.
> Are the leaders motivated for their own profit?
> ...





That is incredibly moronic.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 18, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *Obviously capitalism is dangerous.
> It relies on and enhances materialism, greed, and all the bad emotions that get people to kill and steal from each other.
> However, it also promotes innovation and motivation, so it often wins wars.*
> 
> ...



That is silly because capitalists do traditionally just murder/steal.
Recently that is why we invaded Iraq.
That was the point of the colonialism and imperialism of the US, England, France, Belgium, Holland, etc.
That was the point of the Spanish conquistadors, the Crusades, the Roman legions, Alexander the Great, the Egyptians, etc.

If there is murder and stealing, that is the opposite of communism, which be definition means sharing.

And yes, left wing governments can never use military force to prevent popular opinions from being implemented.
It is only right wing governments where you have a mercenary military that will do what the elite minority pays them to do.
With a true left wing government, there is no paid military, and you just have citizen soldiers who won't do evil things.

The ability to get along is an indicator of how natural, normal, and efficient a system is.
If you can't get along, then you waste effort on unproductive conflict.
For example, do we need 10 different car makers?
If one makers puts another out of business, then all those buildings, jobs, investments, etc., are all lost.
Every successful car maker has destroyed over half a dozen others, resulting in untold harm and damage.
It would be far more efficient to just have 1 car makers that had a board to investigate and incorporate innovative improvements.

For example, there are a lot of really, really stupid things cars should not do or have.
Like touch screens that make you look away from the road.
Catalytic converters that produce highly toxic cyanates, formalins, etc.
Throttle by wire, that sometimes go full throttle by mistake, 
Etc.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 18, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> historically communism has failed every single time,,,
> 
> my god youre dumber than I thought,,, meerkats and primates?? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA,,



Communism has never failed.
When have parents ever had kids with the intent of profit from them?


----------



## progressive hunter (Oct 18, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Communism has never failed.
> When have parents ever had kids with the intent of profit from them?


you poor lost soul,,,


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 18, 2021)

westwall said:


> That is incredibly moronic.



How was Stalin, Genghis Khan, Julius Caesar, Alexander the Great, or any dictator anything but capitalist?


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 18, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> you poor lost soul,,,



No one ever does evil because they like evil, they just do it for profits, which makes then not only capitalists, but makes capitalism evil.


----------



## westwall (Oct 18, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> How was Stalin, Genghis Khan, Julius Caesar, Alexander the Great, or any dictator anything but capitalist?





Capitalism is free people making their own decisions.  If Stalin didn't like you, he killed you.  Capitalists try and sell you the products they make, they don't intentionally murder you.

You are a complete loon.


----------



## struth (Oct 18, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf
> 
> "Capitalism and democracy follow different logics: unequally distributed property rights on the one hand, equal civic and political rights on the other; profit oriented trade within capitalism in contrast to the search for the common good within democracy; debate, compromise and majority decision-making within democratic politics versus hierarchical decision-making by managers and capital owners.
> 
> ...


Capitalism is an economic system 

Democracy is a form of Govt

Of course they aren’t the same thing 

Leftist want to merge the two, economic systems and Govt, which lead to tyranny


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 18, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> historically communism has failed every single time,,,
> 
> my god youre dumber than I thought,,, meerkats and primates?? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA,,



Meerkats and primitive primates are OUR history, for tens of millions of years, if not longer.
Those are where all our inherent instincts/values came from.
We are inherently communist and social animals.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 18, 2021)

westwall said:


> Capitalism is free people making their own decisions.  If Stalin didn't like you, he killed you.  Capitalists try and sell you the products they make, they don't intentionally murder you.
> 
> You are a complete loon.



Stalin was exactly like all capitalists of history.
The capitalists that just try to lie to you or cajole you with commercials are the tame capitalists who we refrained from threatening us with weapons.
Traditionally all the slavery, dictators, autocrats, etc., were all capitalists, profit motivated, and succeeded by bribing hired thugs.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 18, 2021)

struth said:


> Capitalism is an economic system
> 
> Democracy is a form of Govt
> 
> ...



No, the right wing wealthy elite have always traditionally merged the 2, hiring mercenaries to intimidate and kill.
They left is trying to create a counter defense to capitalist dictators, in order to prevent intimidation and murder by the wealthy elite.

Just look at history.
We rebelled from England.
Why?
Because England was run by capitalist dictators that were trying to unfairly tax and intimidate.


----------



## dblack (Oct 18, 2021)

struth said:


> Leftist want to merge the two, economic systems and Govt, which lead to tyranny


That's exactly my problem with it. Trying to combine state power and economic power will work out approximately as well as combining state power with religious power.


----------



## struth (Oct 18, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> No, the right wing wealthy elite have always traditionally merged the 2, hiring mercenaries to intimidate and kill.
> They left is trying to create a counter defense to capitalist dictators, in order to prevent intimidation and murder by the wealthy elite.
> 
> Just look at history.
> ...


hahah you are an idiot


----------



## WTH_Progs? (Oct 18, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Human labor made America.
> Capitalism exploits labor by  privatizing profit and socializing cost.



ILMAO..........Apparently nobody works in China right.


----------



## DGS49 (Oct 18, 2021)

I learned about the benefits of Capitalism when I worked for a small manufacturing company.  We made equipment for water and wastewater treatment, mainly in the public sector.

For every component in a treatment plant, there were several manufacturers competing for that business.  Valves, compressors, motors, meters, monitors, and so forth.  And every manufacturer was constantly engaged in Research and Development, trying to make their products better than the competition (or cheaper to produce).  As a result, the technology was constantly improving.  The equipment evolved to be better, more reliable, more accurate.

Under a socialist regime, where the Sovereign would own the means of production and manage the process, any effort to improve the equipment would be half-hearted and largely unsuccessful.  Faux progress would be rewarded and awarded.

This is why the Russians and the Chinese have spent decades stealing American (and European) technology; because socialism lacks the rewards paradigm that spurs technological development.  In my own experience, we would occasionally have engineers and scientists from the USSR touring our facilities.  They were often brilliant, but not really equipped to innovate, as we were.  Only to copy and steal.

It is no coincidence that the greatest technological innovations all arise in Capitalist countries, where there is a clear incentive to make things better, and to invent new products and services.  Personal computers would NEVER have come into existence without capitalism.  We would all be driving Trabants, or equivalent.  Socialism seeks to make everyone equally poor and miserable, except for the Kleptocrats who run things.  The examples are all around us...North Korea, Cuba, Venezuela.


----------



## WTH_Progs? (Oct 18, 2021)

DGS49 said:


> I learned about the benefits of Capitalism when I worked for a small manufacturing company.  We made equipment for water and wastewater treatment, mainly in the public sector.
> 
> For every component in a treatment plant, there were several manufacturers competing for that business.  Valves, compressors, motors, meters, monitors, and so forth.  And every manufacturer was constantly engaged in Research and Development, trying to make their products better than the competition (or cheaper to produce).  As a result, the technology was constantly improving.  The equipment evolved to be better, more reliable, more accurate.
> 
> ...



Similar labor itself.  I spent a lot of time in both private and public, the differences are vast.  Private is practical say, honest objectives and far better treatment.  Public is almost purely* subjective*.  Having left private to public, one private man-hour = 100+ in the public sector, and the kicker is, the public sector will still manage to fuck it up anyway, so add another 100+ hours.

Kid you not.  A lot of that public time was in info. systems.  If they wanted a programmer that was worth a shit they almost exclusively had to contract in from the private sector.


----------



## ClaireH (Oct 18, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The New Deal created the greatest middle class in history after capitalism collapsed the global economy in 1929. Central planning won both world wars in the 20th century. By early 2020 when the MAGA pandemic first began shutting down the world economy, 87 million US residents lacked adequate healthcare and 40% could not afford an unexpected $400 expense.
> 
> In the richest country in history 40 million people were poor, half of all workers lived paycheck to paycheck, and 12% of the population had experienced food insecurity at some point during the preceding year.
> 
> ...


Your theory has an obvious shortcoming, along with a few others, but one quite notable is that your position would mean that we all start with the same energy and drive… to either do nothing and expect others to support us (including family and government), do just enough to live without handouts (never to be confused with legit hand-ups), or the determination to often rise above difficult circumstances by helping ourselves and helping others.

If US citizens actually lived in your type of world, where we all had the same lack of drive and couldn’t care less about personal responsibility, yes, we’d need our faulty ridden government to save us from ourselves. That’s a secondary issue that is problematic with your assessment: your take on the “horrors” of self-determination and personal responsibility inspires others to embrace handouts as if it’s just the natural evolution of economics. No, it’s not. Economic collapse is a political goal to pursue government reliance. It is not a “natural economic” result without human intention. It will never succeed at least in our lifetimes. There are still too many of us who enjoy personal liberties and freedoms that come with self- responsibility.


----------



## struth (Oct 18, 2021)

WTH_Progs? said:


> Similar labor itself.  I spent a lot of time in both private and public, the differences are vast.  Private is practical say, honest objectives and far better treatment.  Public is almost purely* subjective*.  Having left private to public, one private man-hour = 100+ in the public sector, and the kicker is, the public sector will still manage to fuck it up anyway, so add another 100+ hours.
> 
> Kid you not.  A lot of that public time was in info. systems.  If they wanted a programmer that was worth a shit they almost exclusively had to contract in.


it’s the nature of govt.  Govt is always spending other people’s money on other people, and therefore isn’t efficient or accountable for their use of resources.

in the private sector folks have to earn the money, so are more accountable how it’s spent, and earned…hence more efficient, accountable, and effective


----------



## WTH_Progs? (Oct 18, 2021)

struth said:


> it’s the nature of govt.  Govt is always spending other people’s money on other people, and therefore isn’t efficient or accountable for their use of resources.
> 
> in the private sector folks have to earn the money, so are more accountable how it’s spent, and earned…hence more efficient, accountable, and effective



Should have seen those MFers blowing public money at useless platforms & software to the tune of millions.  Dumbshits even tried to save face by rejecting my simple & free platforms only to end up with the same layouts that were 1/10th as efficient & effective, at the cost of 100sK+.  Want to really piss them off, watch them wear egg on their faces three times same subject, because last I knew they were still using my templates, by "default".   Private digs efficiency, public is offended by it.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 18, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> That is silly because capitalists do traditionally just murder/steal.
> Recently that is why we invaded Iraq.
> That was the point of the colonialism and imperialism of the US, England, France, Belgium, Holland, etc.
> That was the point of the Spanish conquistadors, the Crusades, the Roman legions, Alexander the Great, the Egyptians, etc.
> ...



*That is silly because capitalists do traditionally just murder/steal.*

Like the capitalists in China and the USSR, right?

*Recently that is why we invaded Iraq.*

Is that why we took all their oil and turned a profit?

*It is only right wing governments where you have a mercenary military that will do what the elite minority pays them to do.*

Exactly. Which is why Cuba and Venezuela didn't do that.

*For example, do we need 10 different car makers?*

Because idiots like you and Bernie aren't in charge.
How'd Trabants work out?

*Every successful car maker has destroyed over half a dozen others, resulting in untold harm and damage.*

Not to mention killing all the workers and management.

*Catalytic converters that produce highly toxic cyanates, formalins, etc.*

Why are you conflating government mandates with capitalism?


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 18, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Economic surplus? LOL!


*Does greedy billionaire bitches work better for you, Rube?*

U.S. Billionaires are Now $2.1 Trillion Richer Than Before the Pandemic - Inequality.org

"America’s billionaires have grown $2.1 trillion richer during the pandemic, their collective fortune skyrocketing by 70 percent — from just short of $3 trillion at the start of the COVID crisis on March 18, 2020, to over $5 trillion on October 15 of this year, according to Forbes data analyzed by Americans for Tax Fairness (ATF) and the Institute for Policy Studies Program on Inequality (IPS). [A table of the top 15 billionaires is below and the full data set is here.]"


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 18, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *Capitalism is a form of governance where a small minority of all the people control the means of production thereby ensuring they decide how any economic surplus will be distributed.*
> 
> Economic surplus? LOL!


Which is more important capitalism or democracy?


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 18, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Which is more important capitalism or democracy?


Capitalism, by far.


----------



## dblack (Oct 18, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Which is more important capitalism or democracy?


It's an easy question. Without economic freedom, all other freedoms are moot.

And you're also making a basic category error. Capitalism is independent of democracy and vice versa. You can have capitalism, with or without democracy and vice versa.


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 18, 2021)

dblack said:


> It's an easy question. Without economic freedom, all other freedoms are moot.
> 
> And you're also making a basic category error. Capitalism is independent of democracy and vice versa. You can have capitalism, with or without democracy and vice versa.


With democracy, you can't have it for long.


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 18, 2021)

dblack said:


> Nope. Democracy serves the interests of the majority. Not ALL the people


*Are rich people or poor people the majority in America?
Which cohort's interest does oligarchy serve?*

Brutal Capitalism: How America is transforming from a democracy to an oligarchy | The Milwaukee Independent

"Recidivists. Repeat criminals. Billionaires. But because the crime they committed was mostly against average Americans rather than against big companies or rich people, they’ll quietly retire to one of their chalets or mansions.

"Meanwhile, Jessica Reznicek was just sentenced to serve 8 years in prison for damaging an oil pipeline that she believed threatened the water supply of Iowa and surrounding regions and is contributing to climate change. Nobody died. Nobody got addicted. She didn’t make any money doing it. She’s not rich"


----------



## dblack (Oct 18, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> With democracy, you can't have it for long.


Sure you can. You just need consensus that government shouldn't be meddling in our economic affairs.


----------



## dblack (Oct 18, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Are rich people or poor people the majority in America?
> Which cohort's interest does oligarchy serve?


As you usual, your pompous self-important fonts and links amount to nothing more than random nonsense, that in no way addresses the quote you're responding to. You have a real problem with that. If you can want to drone on and on about irrelevant shit, kindly refrain from quoting my posts. It makes it seem like you're responding to my points, but you're not. You're just steering around them.


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 18, 2021)

dblack said:


> No, it's not a form governance.


*Capitalism is among (actually the primary) actors involved in the creation, reinforcement, or reproduction of social norms and institutions in this country.*

Governance - Wikipedia

*"Governance* is all the processes of interaction be they through the laws, norms, power or language of an organized society[1] over a social system (family, tribe, formal or informal organization, a territory or across territories). 

"It is done by the government of a state, by a market, or by a network. It is the decision-making among the actors involved in a collective problem that lead to the creation, reinforcement, or reproduction of social norms and institutions'"


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 18, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "America’s billionaires have grown $2.1 trillion richer during the pandemic



It's weird how guys who own a lot of stocks make a lot of money when stocks go up a lot.


----------



## dblack (Oct 18, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Capitalism is among (actually the primary) actors involved in the creation, reinforcement, or reproduction of social norms and institutions in this country.*
> 
> Governance - Wikipedia
> 
> ...


More horseshit. I 

... .oh fuck it. Not wasting my time with idiotic equivocation. And that's pretty much all I see from socialists.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 18, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Are rich people or poor people the majority in America?
> Which cohort's interest does oligarchy serve?*
> 
> Brutal Capitalism: How America is transforming from a democracy to an oligarchy | The Milwaukee Independent
> ...



*Are rich people or poor people the majority in America?*

Depends on how you define rich and poor.

*Recidivists. Repeat criminals. Billionaires. But because the crime they committed was mostly against average Americans rather than against big companies or rich people, they’ll quietly retire to one of their chalets or mansions.*

Which billionaires? Which crimes? Be specific.

*Meanwhile, Jessica Reznicek was just sentenced to serve 8 years in prison for damaging an oil pipeline that she believed threatened the water supply of Iowa and surrounding regions and is contributing to climate change. *

She sounds like an idiot. She's lucky she didn't burn to death.

*a senior Exxon executive and lobbyist told a reporter that his company had no intention of going along with a carbon tax*

Excellent!! If you want to stop using carbon, you should stop.

*The death toll from the “heat dome” caused in part by Exxon’s product (and their decades of funding climate denialism every bit as horrific as the Sackler’s marketing efforts for Oxycontin) has now officially killed over 116 people in Oregon*

I heard it was 116 million.

*It has transformed America from a democracy to an oligarchy, and the point of no return is now visible. And that presents a true crisis for America, because oligarchy is almost always merely a transitional phase in the evolution of full-blown tyranny and/or fascism.*

That's awful!!  

Fascism is much worse than communism.
Wait, why is fascism worse than communism?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 18, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> They left is trying to create a counter defense to capitalist dictators, in order to prevent intimidation and murder by the wealthy elite.



And they'll intimate and murder you if they have to, eh comrade?


----------



## progressive hunter (Oct 18, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Meerkats and primitive primates are OUR history, for tens of millions of years, if not longer.
> Those are where all our inherent instincts/values came from.
> We are inherently communist and social animals.


maybe your history but not human history,,


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 18, 2021)

dblack said:


> Sure you can. You just need consensus that government shouldn't be meddling in our economic affairs.


That won't under democracy.


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 18, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Are rich people or poor people the majority in America?
> Which cohort's interest does oligarchy serve?*
> 
> Brutal Capitalism: How America is transforming from a democracy to an oligarchy | The Milwaukee Independent
> ...


_The death toll from the “heat dome” caused in part by Exxon’s product (and their decades of funding climate denialism every bit as horrific as the Sackler’s marketing efforts for Oxycontin) has now officially killed over 116 people in Oregon, probably twice that in Washinton State (which has a much larger population), and over 500 people in British Columbia. _​
There was no "heat dome" caused by Exxon's products.   Heat waves are a normal phenomenon of nature, dumbass.  Exxon killed no one.


----------



## Thunderbird (Oct 19, 2021)

Dragonlady said:


> Wrong on every score.  The left doesn't "demonize" capitalism.  You have all of these "either/or" fallacies.  "Either you want to build the Wall, or you favour open borders".  "Either you're in favour of 'free market capitalism' or you're a communist".  None of these things are "either/or" scenarios.
> 
> "Free Market capitalism" is the basis of everything that is going wrong in the USA at the moment.  It's not socialism that has turned South America into the political hellscape we see today, but rather South America is what happens when you give the country over to free market capitalism.  The poverty, the murder of leftist leaders, the extreme violence, all leading to today's Brazil, where death squads go through the barrios gunning down any male not working, as suspected "gang members".
> 
> ...


Oligarchs, poverty, violence all disappear when leftists take over?? When did you lose touch with reality?


----------



## Thunderbird (Oct 19, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> I agree that capitalism is economic and has nothing to do with governing systems like democracy, theocracy, autocracy, etc.
> 
> But all humans always inherently implement communism whenever they get the chance, like all small scales.
> That included all families, religious orders, small tribes, etc.
> ...


Trotsky was a murderous bum just like his fellow    Leftists Stalin and Lenin.









						Don't idealize Leon Trotsky.
					

The following essay is adapted from Clive James'  Cultural Amnesia, a re-examination of intellectuals, artists, and thinkers who helped shape the 20th...




					slate.com


----------



## Thunderbird (Oct 19, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Obviously capitalism is dangerous.
> It relies on and enhances materialism, greed, and all the bad emotions that get people to kill and steal from each other.
> However, it also promotes innovation and motivation, so it often wins wars.
> So to survive, we need a combination of socialism that allows capitalism, but regulates it enough to prevent abuses like slavery, child labor, etc.
> ...


Why are you having trouble understanding? Some socialists are authoritarians.









						Lenin Paints Himself Black With His Own Words (Published 1996)
					

Richard Bernstein reviews book The Unknown Lenin: From the Secret Archive, edited by Richard Pipes; Pipes photo (S)




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## Colin norris (Oct 19, 2021)

Rambunctious said:


> Today the USA is neither capitalist or Democratic.....


Well what is it?


----------



## Thunderbird (Oct 19, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> The point is that historically communism works better and is ingrained in our evolved instincts.
> Its efficiency can't be denied.
> Just look at how successful Meerkats are, or any communist primates.


Can we give Rigby5’s post some kind of award?

Dumbest post for October maybe?


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 19, 2021)

westwall said:


> Here's your socialist paradise you retard. One third of the country is starving while the ruling elite get fat...


*What role did US foreign policy play in fattening those elites?*
Listen To Venezuela | MR Online
"This film was shot in Venezuela in 2008. It provides an essential background to understanding what has been happening in Venezuela in recent times. 

"These are real people, not figments of the filmmakers’ imagination, articulating their hopes for a transformed country. 

"It offers a very different perspective and set of images of Venezuela from most Western media which loyally recycles perspectives that tie in with American foreign policy objectives and the internal elites of Venezuela who are responsible for decades of underdevelopment and poverty. 

"The film offers a complex account of a complex situation-but it is not neutral: it is on the side of a people struggling for change, it is filmed, from ‘the optic of the people’."


----------



## Dragonlady (Oct 19, 2021)

Thunderbird said:


> Oligarchs, poverty, violence all disappear when leftists take over?? When did you lose touch with reality?



Perhaps you should go back and read what I posted.  You home schooled types have a difficult time reading for comprehension.  No we don't run our countries for the benefit of the wealthy oligarchs.  Our tax codes are designed to help working people, and to give them the resources to succeed.  Our rates of murder and other violent crimes are a fraction of yours.  Our rates of poverty are also a fraction of what yours are.

The rest of the world's first world countries, all of which are leftist social democracies, have less poverty, violent crime, and most importantly, they have far less wage and wealth inequity.  Oligarchs don't run the country, and the rich are taxed.  They don't get 80% of the income and wealth of our nations. Our tax codes reward the workers, not just the wealthy.

You're the richest nation on earth, but have the 3rd highest rate of poverty in the world. That doesn't say much for your system of government at all.  And you have the highest rates of murder and violent crime.









						Poverty rates in OECD countries 2019 | Statista
					

Out of all OECD countries, Cost Rica had the highest poverty rate as of 2019, at 19.9 percent.




					www.statista.com
				




Your crime rate is lower because you only count specific crimes as "violent crimes":  murder and non-negligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault.  If two drunks get into a fight behind the bar, we count it.


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 19, 2021)

dblack said:


> Ahh the equivocation game! Who, besides you, is saying that a free market is regulation-free? Free markets depend on property laws at the very least, so you're shadow-boxing.


*You got (another) one right.
"Free markets" are NOT regulation free.*




Cheat, Lie, and Steal: Michael Hudson on the Capitalist Way

"For Adam Smith, a free market was a market free of landlords. 

"You wouldn't have them anymore. 

"That was the first thing that he picked up in his travels in France was the physiocrats. 

"John Stuart Mill said, 'Economic rent is what landlords make in their sleep without working.'

"He wanted the government ... Basically they were called Ricardian Socialists. 

*"They wanted the government to collect all the rent so that the only income people would get would be income they make from actually being productive, for making things, for makings goods and services"*


----------



## Tom Paine 1949 (Oct 19, 2021)

> Rambunctious said:
> Today the USA is neither capitalist or Democratic.....





Colin norris said:


> Well what is it?



Good question, Colin. I’d have to say the USA is a country filled with some pretty shamefully ignorant people! From the ridiculous either/or posing of the OP question, to the demagogic and argumentative comments, there is not much useful being said here.

In the end, it seems to me that the key social and economic reality is that the “U.S.A.” has become a dangerously muscle-bound world financial empire, terrified of losing its position as top dog among nations.

Corporate finance capitalism rules here. It has been developing for a long time. It is our present “American version” of capitalism.

It is not just a matter of economics. Today our democratic traditions and republican institutions are failing us and our people are at each other’s throats, partly but certainly not only due to Trump and his incredible demagoguery.

 Sectional and “party-partisan” hysteria grow even as those claiming to be “independents” outnumber ostensible “partisans.” The center does not hold. Those with money and stocks, those with education and good or relatively stable jobs, those without, Americans talk past one another. As do whole nations in the world. So it is with that old “socialism” and “capitalism” debate.

It reminds me of an old Keats poem:

“Turning and turning in the widening gyre 
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere 
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst 
Are full of passionate intensity.”


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 19, 2021)

Dragonlady said:


> Perhaps you should go back and read what I posted.  You home schooled types have a difficult time reading for comprehension.  No we don't run our countries for the benefit of the wealthy oligarchs.  Our tax codes are designed to help working people, and to give them the resources to succeed.  Our rates of murder and other violent crimes are a fraction of yours.  Our rates of poverty are also a fraction of what yours are.
> 
> The rest of the world's first world countries, all of which are leftist social democracies, have less poverty, violent crime, and most importantly, they have far less wage and wealth inequity.  Oligarchs don't run the country, and the rich are taxed.  They don't get 80% of the income and wealth of our nations. Our tax codes reward the workers, not just the wealthy.
> 
> ...



*You're the richest nation on earth, but have the 3rd highest rate of poverty in the world.*

Wow! You're clueless.








__





						Poverty Rate by Country 2022
					





					worldpopulationreview.com


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 19, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> I use Bank of America.


Bank of America to Pay $16.65 Billion in Historic Justice Department Settlement for Financial Fraud Leading up to and During the Financial Crisis


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 19, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Bank of America to Pay $16.65 Billion in Historic Justice Department Settlement for Financial Fraud Leading up to and During the Financial Crisis


"Attorney General Eric Holder"

That's all you need to know about that settlement.

Isn't that the one where Holder gave the money away to leftwing propaganda operations?


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 19, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Capitalism is just another word for economic freedom, and that's far more important than choosing a new gang of overseers every coup


*Capitalism is just another word for criminal enterprise:*

Brutal Capitalism: How America is transforming from a democracy to an oligarchy | The Milwaukee Independent

"The Sackler family, whose criminal Oxycontin drug-dealing killed over a half-million Americans and destroyed the lives of millions more, is close to a deal with the states to keep around $10 billion of their ill-gotten gain in exchange for giving the states a bit over $4 billion over a nine years. 

*"Nobody will go to jail or *even suffer an inconvenience like no longer being able to use a private jet or give up one of their many mansions."


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 19, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Capitalism is just another word for criminal enterprise:*
> 
> Brutal Capitalism: How America is transforming from a democracy to an oligarchy | The Milwaukee Independent
> 
> ...


How are they "criminal" when everything they did was totally legal?

OxyContin is a medically useful drug.


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 19, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> There's a difference between a "surplus" and wealth. In reality, there is no economic surplus.







What is economic surplus? Definition and meaning


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 19, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *You got (another) one right.
> "Free markets" are NOT regulation free.*
> 
> 
> ...



I love that you get economic "wisdom" from a Marxist economist.


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 19, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> What is economic surplus? Definition and meaning


Because some propagandist prints a label on a chart, that doesn't make it reality.  Furthermore, "Consumer Surplus" doesn't mean anything like what you imply it means.  As the chart shows, if the economy is in equilibrium, there is no consumer surplus.  I've never even seen the term used in any economics book I ever read.


----------



## justoffal (Oct 19, 2021)

Rambunctious said:


> Today the USA is neither capitalist or Democratic.....


Perfect response


----------



## dblack (Oct 19, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *You got (another) one right."Free markets" are NOT regulation free.*



You have faced your strawman courageously, and defeated it in battle!


----------



## struth (Oct 19, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *What role did US foreign policy play in fattening those elites?*
> Listen To Venezuela | MR Online
> "This film was shot in Venezuela in 2008. It provides an essential background to understanding what has been happening in Venezuela in recent times.
> 
> ...


Socialist in Venezula who got rich making the people poor, oppressing them, and robbing their natural resources.....blame the USA.....sure....I get it.


----------



## dblack (Oct 19, 2021)

struth said:


> Socialist in Venezula who got rich making the people poor, oppressing them, and robbing their natural resources.....blame the USA.....sure....I get it.


Those were bad socialists, see. They're not doing it right.


----------



## struth (Oct 19, 2021)

dblack said:


> Those were bad socialists, see. They're not doing it right.


I always find it ironic that leftist dembot cultist going on and on about how great socialism is, but somehow it always gets foiled by the big bad Capitalist....amazing really


----------



## dblack (Oct 19, 2021)

struth said:


> I always find it ironic that leftist dembot cultist going on and on about how great socialism is, but somehow it always gets foiled by the big bad Capitalist....amazing really


To be fair, it's the same game in reverse ie there are plenty of supposed "capitalist" nations that aren't doing it right either, and we likewise disown them when they're brought up as proof that capitalism "doesn't work".


----------



## ThunderKiss1965 (Oct 19, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> We already know how conservatives hate democracy
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Trumps not a Conservative.


----------



## Rambunctious (Oct 19, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> Well what is it?


I'm sure you helped vote it in every time you pulled the lever for a democrat so you tell me....


----------



## justoffal (Oct 19, 2021)

struth said:


> I always find it ironic that leftist dembot cultist going on and on about how great socialism is, but somehow it always gets foiled by the big bad Capitalist....amazing really


Truth is..... it's not possible to have pure capitalism in a human society. People are assets yes but they still have to eat, drink, breath and be sheltered. This is not like a supply of logs that can be stacked to the back of the lumber yard waiting for the commodity price to rise.  By the same token capitalism is the single most powerful engine for development, advancement and invention in all of human history....to the extent we follow it will dictate the speed with which we grow....it's a balance.


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 19, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *What role did US foreign policy play in fattening those elites?*
> Listen To Venezuela | MR Online
> "This film was shot in Venezuela in 2008. It provides an essential background to understanding what has been happening in Venezuela in recent times.
> 
> ...


Communist propaganda.


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 19, 2021)

Thunderbird said:


> It’s okay to criticize capitalism, but people who *demonize* capitalism usually want to set up a dictatorship.


*Over the past few hundred years we've seen various editions of capitalism and democracy, and they have coexisted with different levels of harmony, but since 1970 US capitalism has morphed into a direct threat to democracy.*

https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf

"Since the 1970s, capitalism has changed in a way that has challenged its compatibility with democracy considerably. 

*"The turn towards neoliberalism, deregulation and globalization, and the rise of financialization has contributed to these changes significantly (Heires and Nölke 2013). *

"The global financial crisis since 2008 has manifested and intensified the critical elements of this new divergence: It has once more changed the relationship between the economy and the state, capitalism and democracy. 

"The crisis of capitalism threatens to turn into a crisis of democracy.

"Beginning with Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan in the.."


----------



## dblack (Oct 19, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Over the past few hundred years we've seen various editions of capitalism and democracy, and they have coexisted with different levels of harmony, but since 1970 US capitalism has morphed into a direct threat to democracy.


Only if you think democratic government should control the economy.


----------



## Thunderbird (Oct 19, 2021)

Thunderbird said:


> Oligarchs, poverty, violence all disappear when leftists take over?? When did you lose touch with reality?


Dragonlady

Many Latin American nations, including Venezuela, have embraced socialism and suffered for it.









						Under Maduro, nearly all Venezuelans live in poverty
					

A new report from ENCOVI shows that over 90 percent of Venezuelans live in poverty and are food insecure because of Maduro's economic mismanagement.




					share.america.gov
				




Also consider:





__





						California Has the Highest Poverty Rate in America. Why? | Jon Miltimore
					

How is it that California, which has spent nearly $1 trillion on antipoverty programs, has the highest poverty rate in the nation?



					fee.org
				












						Income Inequality Worse Under Obama Than George W. Bush
					

Income Inequality Worse Under Obama Than George W. Bush




					www.huffpost.com


----------



## Thunderbird (Oct 19, 2021)

Dragonlady said:


> Perhaps you should go back and read what I posted.  You home schooled types have a difficult time reading for comprehension.  No we don't run our countries for the benefit of the wealthy oligarchs.  Our tax codes are designed to help working people, and to give them the resources to succeed.  Our rates of murder and other violent crimes are a fraction of yours.  Our rates of poverty are also a fraction of what yours are.
> 
> The rest of the world's first world countries, all of which are leftist social democracies, have less poverty, violent crime, and most importantly, they have far less wage and wealth inequity.  Oligarchs don't run the country, and the rich are taxed.  They don't get 80% of the income and wealth of our nations. Our tax codes reward the workers, not just the wealthy.
> 
> ...


Please acknowledge your errors:

1) You wrote: You’re the richest nation on earth, but have the 3rd highest rate of poverty in the world.

2) You claimed Venezuela has a right authoritarian government.

3) You wrote: The left doesn't "demonize" capitalism. Then you contradicted yourself by posting: "Free Market capitalism" is the basis of everything that is going wrong in the USA at the moment

Many wealthy countries have embraced economic freedom: Country Rankings: World & Global Economy Rankings on Economic Freedom


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 19, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Over the past few hundred years we've seen various editions of capitalism and democracy, and they have coexisted with different levels of harmony, but since 1970 US capitalism has morphed into a direct threat to democracy.*
> 
> https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf
> 
> ...


Government caused the global financial crisis


----------



## Thunderbird (Oct 19, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Over the past few hundred years we've seen various editions of capitalism and democracy, and they have coexisted with different levels of harmony, but since 1970 US capitalism has morphed into a direct threat to democracy.*
> 
> https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf
> 
> ...


Can you acknowledge that Obama, the Clintons, Biden and other prominent Democrats are part of the problem?

Can you acknowledge the massive failures of Communist regimes?


----------



## dblack (Oct 19, 2021)

Circling back around to the topic:  "Capitalism is NOT Democratic: Democracy is NOT Capitalist"

I don't see the disagreement. The statements are truisms. Capitalism isn't democratic - it was never meant to be. Nor is democracy capitalist - it was never meant to be. How did we squeeze multiple pages of discussion out of this?


----------



## g5000 (Oct 19, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> No, Stalin was not even aware of what communism or capitalism was.
> He was just a bank robber that the party needed in order to gain funding early on.
> They made him party secretary, thinking he could then do no harm.
> But they forgot that secretaries make lists.
> ...


Stalin did not murder them for being communists.  He murdered them because he considered them a threat to his personal survival as the boss of everybody.

Stalin was a marxist as they come.  Just read his speeches.


----------



## g5000 (Oct 19, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> The point is that historically communism works better and is ingrained in our evolved instincts.
> Its efficiency can't be denied.
> Just look at how successful Meerkats are, or any communist primates.


Meerkats and primates have alphas who get to fuck anyone else in the group as they please.  They are the primary breeders.  

The alphas control the means of reproduction.


----------



## g5000 (Oct 19, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> That is silly because capitalists do traditionally just murder/steal.
> Recently that is why we invaded Iraq.
> That was the point of the colonialism and imperialism of the US, England, France, Belgium, Holland, etc.
> That was the point of the Spanish conquistadors, the Crusades, the Roman legions, Alexander the Great, the Egyptians, etc.
> ...


The Soviet Union invaded Eastern Europe and dropped an Iron Curtain.  Stalin created a man-made famine in the Ukraine and murdered 30 million people.  THAT is murder and stealing.

Mao murdered tens of millions of Chinese people and stole the land.  Pol Pot stole all private property in Cambodia, forced the entire population into the countryside, and murdered millions of Cambodians.

You are seriously deluded about what communism reaps.


----------



## g5000 (Oct 19, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Communism has never failed.


Wow.  Just...wow.

You have GOT to be trolling.


----------



## g5000 (Oct 19, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> How was Stalin, Genghis Khan, Julius Caesar, Alexander the Great, or any dictator anything but capitalist?


My god.  Someone claiming Stalin was a capitalist is as batshit crazy as someone claiming Hitler was left wing.


----------



## g5000 (Oct 19, 2021)

Rigby5 

February  09,  1946 Speech  Delivered  by  Stalin  at  a  Meeting  of  Voters  of  the Stalin  Electoral  District,  Moscow

_ It would be wrong to think that the Second World War broke out accidentally, or as a result of blunders committed by certain statesmen, although blunders were certainly committed. *As a matter of  fact, the war broke out as the inevitable result of  the development of world economic and political forces on the basis of present-day monopolistic capitalism.  Marxists have more  than once stated that the capitalist system  of world economy contains  the elements of a general crisis and military conflicts*, that, in view of  that, the development of world capitalism  in our times does not proceed smoothly and evenly, but through crises and catastrophic wars. The point is that the uneven development of  capitalist countries usually leads, in the course  of  time, to a sharp disturbance of  the equilibrium  within the world system  of capitalism,  and that group of capitalist countries regards itself as being less securely provides with raw materials  and markets usually attempts to change the situation and to redistribute "spheres of influence" in its own favour -- by employing armed force. As a result of this, the capitalist world is split into two hostile camps, and war breaks out between them.

Perhaps catastrophic wars could be  avoided if it were possible periodically to redistribute raw materials and markets among the respective countries in conformity with their economic weight  by means of concerted and peaceful decisions. But this is impossible under the present   capitalist conditions of world economic development.  _



			https://digitalarchive.wilsoncenter.org/document/116179.pdf?v=a831b5c6a9ff133d9da25b37c013d691


----------



## g5000 (Oct 19, 2021)

Rigby5 









						Stalin blames World War II on capitalism (1946)
					

In February 1946 Soviet leader Joseph Stalin addressed voters in Moscow - and claimed that war is inevitable in a system where capitalism is dominant:



					alphahistory.com


----------



## Colin norris (Oct 19, 2021)

Rambunctious said:


> I'm sure you helped vote it in every time you pulled the lever for a democrat so you tell me....



The onus is on you.  Support your big mouth or back away and admit is bullshit.


----------



## Colin norris (Oct 19, 2021)

Tom Paine 1949 said:


> Good question, Colin. I’d have to say the USA is a country filled with some pretty shamefully ignorant people! From the ridiculous either/or posing of the OP question, to the demagogic and argumentative comments, there is not much useful being said here.
> 
> In the end, it seems to me that the key social and economic reality is that the “U.S.A.” has become a dangerously muscle-bound world financial empire, terrified of losing its position as top dog among nations.
> 
> ...



The OP is a small part of the problem. Trump divided the country like  nothing before. The idiots  that were sucked in are now the main problem in nearly everything that is wrong about the place. 
They're ignorant, stupid, grossly  un  informed and yet still persue the return of the bloody idiot as if the return of the him will solve the problems he created. 
If anyone should be exterminated for treason its him.


----------



## ClaireH (Oct 19, 2021)

struth said:


> it’s the nature of govt.  Govt is always spending other people’s money on other people, and therefore isn’t efficient or accountable for their use of resources.
> 
> in the private sector folks have to earn the money, so are more accountable how it’s spent, and earned…hence more efficient, accountable, and effective


Excellent point about when people earn their own money they are far more accountable for how it’s spent. Taxpayers see the misuse of their federal money. Policymakers should take heed if they expect to maintain political power or be replaced. Like usual. As an average voter, I’m ready for a better usual.


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 19, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> The OP is a small part of the problem. Trump divided the country like  nothing before. The idiots  that were sucked in are now the main problem in nearly everything that is wrong about the place.
> They're ignorant, stupid, grossly  un  informed and yet still persue the return of the bloody idiot as if the return of the him will solve the problems he created.
> If anyone should be exterminated for treason its him.


You have described yourself, asshole.  the country was already divided.   All Trump did is bring those division out into the daylight.  Then all you America hating progs showed your true colors.  That's why you hate Trump.   He has you pegged.

If anyone should be exterminated for treason, it's prog turds like you.


----------



## Rambunctious (Oct 19, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> The onus is on you.  Support your big mouth or back away and admit is bullshit.


Truth hurts don't it?....


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 19, 2021)

struth said:


> Capitalism is an economic system
> 
> Democracy is a form of Govt
> 
> Of course they aren’t the same thing


I never said they were.
Is capitalism compatible with democracy?
Democracy is created by the people for the people.
Capitalism divides society into two unequal cohorts, Owners and employees.
Owners decide what to produce, where to produce it, and how revenues are distributed which guarantees owners will use their share to bribe government to privatize profit and socialize cost.


----------



## struth (Oct 19, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> I never said they were.
> Is capitalism compatible with democracy?
> Democracy is created by the people for the people.
> Capitalism divides society into two unequal cohorts, Owners and employees.
> Owners decide what to produce, where to produce it, and how revenues are distributed which guarantees owners will use their share to bribe government to privatize profit and socialize cost.


yes they are very compatible 

Capitalism allows anyone to be an owner and the people decide what they want and how much they want produced in a capitalist society.  Producers make what the people demand, the people set the price, etc.  Moreover in a capitalist society anyone can become an owner 

in leftist society, none of that is possible because the Govt owns it all, sets the price, and produces what they want 

it’s leftist ideology that’s not compatible with democracy as its leftist society that takes away the freedom of choice which capitalism encourages


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 19, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Owners decide what to produce, where to produce it, and how revenues are distributed



Yup. Owners decide, whiners whine.


----------



## Colin norris (Oct 19, 2021)

Rambunctious said:


> Truth hurts don't it?....



I don't know because I haven't  seen  any from you. 
Let me know when you do.


----------



## Rambunctious (Oct 19, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> I don't know because I haven't  seen  any from you.
> Let me know when you do.


----------



## Colin norris (Oct 19, 2021)

Rambunctious said:


>



I'm sorry I tapped into you childish mind. 
Please forgive me.


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 20, 2021)

WTH_Progs? said:


> LMAO..........Apparently nobody works in China right.


*It appears (at the moment) fewer entrepreneurs will be allowed to become billionaires in China by privatizing profit and socializing cost:*

Chinese communists are souring on capitalism

"HONG KONG, July 26 (Reuters Breakingviews) - The Chinese Communist Party’s affair with capitalism is souring rapidly. Beijing is forcing the country’s $120 billion private tutoring industry to turn non-profit, an unprecedented move that wiped out billions of dollars in value at a swathe of listed Chinese firms."


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 20, 2021)

DGS49 said:


> I learned about the benefits of Capitalism when I worked for a small manufacturing company. We made equipment for water and wastewater treatment, mainly in the public sector.


*The form of capitalism you extoll is no longer dominant*.




"Free-market capitalism says that the only purpose of business is to create shareholder value and that the unfettered market can regulate itself. 

"In the last 30 years, that definition changed to, 'the only purpose of business is to create shareholder value measured by short-term results and with little or no regulation.'"

StackPath


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 20, 2021)

DGS49 said:


> Under a socialist regime, where the Sovereign would own the means of production and manage the process, any effort to improve the equipment would be half-hearted and largely unsuccessful. Faux progress would be rewarded and awarded


That "sovereign" could just as easily be the entire workforce as opposed to a relatively handful of owners, managers, and shareholders. Workers would be expected to become more invested in making improvements if they felt they had a stake in owning the fruits of their labor.


----------



## Rambunctious (Oct 20, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> I'm sorry I tapped into you childish mind.
> Please forgive me.


No I won't forgive you ever...you are what is wrong with America....


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 20, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *The form of capitalism you extoll is no longer dominant*.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Rising productivity? That sounds awful!!!


----------



## Colin norris (Oct 20, 2021)

Rambunctious said:


> No I won't forgive you ever...you are what is wrong with
> 
> Oh really? It wouldnt be the hatred and racism cranked up by trump. Nor the extreme partisanship, ignorance and hypocrisy.  Let's not forget the Jesus junkies and their disgusting view of others.
> 
> ...


----------



## Rambunctious (Oct 20, 2021)

_Oh really? It wouldnt be the hatred and racism cranked up by trump. Nor the extreme partisanship, ignorance and hypocrisy. Let's not forget the Jesus junkies and their disgusting view of others._
_
No you're right. It's none of those. It's those bloody democrats again. They bring their communist attitude and want more equality. They should never allowed them to vote and the place remain a Republican utopia where trump like fascists can reign supreme and fools like you lick their boots like the ignorant dickhead you are.
_
_Again, I'm sorry I tapped into your mind again. It's a habit I acquired by posting here._


Hey dummy...would you like to try again?...you posted within my quote....Buuuuaaahahahaha i think you are angry at me because you know your votes over the years have put us in the mess we are in....I guess White was right....you can't fix stupid.....


----------



## Viktor (Oct 20, 2021)

Rambunctious said:


> Today the USA is neither capitalist or Democratic.....


Nonsense. It is a capitalist republic


----------



## Rambunctious (Oct 20, 2021)

Viktor said:


> Nonsense. It is a capitalist republic


Not anymore.....


----------



## Viktor (Oct 20, 2021)

Rambunctious said:


> Not anymore.....




The United States is *a capitalist society* where means of production are based on private ownership and operation for profit. ​

Capitalist Countries 2021 - World Population Review​
https://worldpopulationreview.com › country-rankings › c...​
​
​
​
​
​
About featured snippets•​
​
Feedback​
*Imperial Beach, California*​
​
is the usa capitalist - Google Search


----------



## Rambunctious (Oct 20, 2021)

Viktor said:


> The United States is *a capitalist society* where means of production are based on private ownership and operation for profit. ​
> 
> Capitalist Countries 2021 - World Population Review​
> https://worldpopulationreview.com › country-rankings › c...​
> ...


The USA abandoned real capitalism years ago...and that is one reason we are falling behind in the world....


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 20, 2021)

ClaireH said:


> If US citizens actually lived in your type of world, where we all had the same lack of drive and couldn’t care less about personal responsibility, yes, we’d need our faulty ridden government to save us from ourselves. Th


*Actually, US citizens currently live under the "best government money can buy" due, in large part, to forty years of neoliberal propaganda designed to convince the victims of US capitalism it is a lack of personal responsibility that's responsible for the fact their wage levels have barely budged while the richest one percent have seen their income and wealth skyrocket. *

Investment theory of party competition - Wikipedia

"The real market for political parties is defined by major investors, who generally have good and clear reason for investing to control the state....Blocs of major investors define the core of political parties and are responsible for most of the signals the party sends to the electorate."


----------



## elektra (Oct 20, 2021)

People are so quick to declare their utopian vision of government and economy superior they never consider it has been tried and failed.

Yes. We have the foul mouthed democrats denigrating everything they have not created.

Never before in history has a bunch of lazy ass never done nothings pontificated that they know so much yet their accomplishments based on their beliefs are nothing.

Denigrating capitalism. It is simple, lazy slothful lovers blame everything but themselves.


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 20, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *The form of capitalism you extoll is no longer dominant*.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Free market capitalism doesn't say anything.  It's not a person capable of having opinions.


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 21, 2021)

dblack said:


> Sure you can. You just need consensus that government shouldn't be meddling in our economic affairs.


*If not government, which institution should exercise exclusive legal control over US currency?*

Monetary sovereignty - Wikipedia

*"Monetary sovereignty* is the power of the state to exercise exclusive legal control over its currency, broadly defined, by exercise of the following powers:


Legal tender – the exclusive authority to designate the legal tender forms of payment.[1]
Issuance and retirement – the exclusive authority to control the issuance and retirement of the legal tender."


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 21, 2021)

dblack said:


> As you usual, your pompous self-important fonts and links amount to nothing more than random nonsense, that in no way addresses the quote you're responding to. You have a real problem with that. If you can want to drone on and on about irrelevant shit, kindly refrain from quoting my posts. It makes it seem like you're responding to my points, but you're not. You're just steering around them.


You made the claim "(d)emocracy serves the interest of the majority" NOT all the people."

In the US it should be obvious to anyone with minimal reading skills that what passes for democracy in no way serves the interests of the majority. You blame "government" for that fact which makes your lords and masters very happy.




Inside the Koch Brothers' Toxic Empire


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 21, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> It's weird how guys who own a lot of stocks make a lot of money when stocks go up a lot.


U.S. Billionaires are Now $2.1 Trillion Richer Than Before the Pandemic - Inequality.org

"U.S. Billionaires are Now $2.1 Trillion Richer Than Before the Pandemic​Senator Wyden’s proposed ‘Billionaires Income Tax’ could raise significant revenue to fund President Biden’s Build Back Better investment plans.​BLOGGING OUR GREAT DIVIDE​OCTOBER 18, 2021​by Chuck Collins

"America’s billionaires have grown $2.1 trillion richer during the pandemic, their collective fortune skyrocketing by 70 percent — from just short of $3 trillion at the start of the COVID crisis on March 18, 2020, to over $5 trillion on October 15 of this year, according to Forbes data analyzed by Americans for Tax Fairness (ATF) and the Institute for Policy Studies Program on Inequality (IPS).

"Not only did the wealth of U.S. billionaires grow, but so did their numbers: in March of last year, there were 614 Americans with 10-figure bank accounts. Today there are 745.

"The $5 trillion in wealth now held by 745 billionaires is two-thirds more than the $3 trillion in wealth held by the bottom 50 percent of U.S. households estimated by the Federal Reserve Board.

"The great good fortune of these billionaires over the past 19 months is even starker when contrasted with the devastating impact of coronavirus on working people. 

"Almost 89 million Americans have lost jobs, over 44.9 million have been sickened by the virus, and over 724,000 have died from it.

"To put this extraordinary wealth growth in perspective, the $2.1 trillion gain over 19 months by U.S. billionaires is equal to:

60 percent of the $3.5 trillion 10-year cost of President Biden’s Build Back Better plan.
The entire $2.1 trillion in new revenues over 10 years approved by the House Ways and Means Committee to help pay for President Biden’s Build Back Better (BBB) investment plan."


----------



## 22lcidw (Oct 21, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> U.S. Billionaires are Now $2.1 Trillion Richer Than Before the Pandemic - Inequality.org
> 
> "U.S. Billionaires are Now $2.1 Trillion Richer Than Before the Pandemic​Senator Wyden’s proposed ‘Billionaires Income Tax’ could raise significant revenue to fund President Biden’s Build Back Better investment plans.​BLOGGING OUR GREAT DIVIDE​OCTOBER 18, 2021​by Chuck Collins
> 
> ...


Any way of living...Capitalism, Socialism, Communism, Fascism and more are not part of Freedom which is from a Republic. Not Democracy. The Constitution say nothing about those different systems. It tells us we are a Republic. And we are not anymore. We are a Democracy as we are kept being told by the politicians.


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 21, 2021)

dblack said:


> .oh fuck it. Not wasting my time with idiotic equivocation. And that's pretty much all I see from socialists.


Your blindness is obvious to all.




The Libertarian Delusion | BillMoyers.com


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 21, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Fascism is much worse than communism.
> Wait, why is fascism worse than communism?







Brutal Capitalism: How America is transforming from a democracy to an oligarchy | The Milwaukee Independent

"In an oligarchy, the rich can get away with anything and average people who try to stop harms to themselves and their communities get crushed. We’re now there; the question is whether we’ll pull back from this horror show, or whether it’ll continue its evolution toward a full-blown police state.

"The Sackler family, whose criminal Oxycontin drug-dealing killed over a half-million Americans and destroyed the lives of millions more, is close to a deal with the states to keep around $10 billion of their ill-gotten gain in exchange for giving the states a bit over $4 billion over a nine years. 

"Nobody will go to jail or even suffer an inconvenience like no longer being able to use a private jet or give up one of their many mansions.

"And it’s not like they were caught in a one-off crime. In 2007, they reached a settlement with the government over their illegal and deadly marketing practices, promising to behave like good citizens. Then, as the Washington Post noted yesterday."


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 21, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> There was no "heat dome" caused by Exxon's products. Heat waves are a normal phenomenon of nature, dumbass. Exxon killed no one.


Guess Which Oil Giant Sickeningly Predicted This Week's CO2 Nightmare 37 Years Ago




Exxon Confirmed Global Warming Consensus in 1982 with In-House Climate Models - Inside Climate News


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 21, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> U.S. Billionaires are Now $2.1 Trillion Richer Than Before the Pandemic - Inequality.org
> 
> "U.S. Billionaires are Now $2.1 Trillion Richer Than Before the Pandemic​Senator Wyden’s proposed ‘Billionaires Income Tax’ could raise significant revenue to fund President Biden’s Build Back Better investment plans.​BLOGGING OUR GREAT DIVIDE​OCTOBER 18, 2021​by Chuck Collins
> 
> ...



So what?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 21, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Brutal Capitalism: How America is transforming from a democracy to an oligarchy | The Milwaukee Independent
> 
> "In an oligarchy, the rich can get away with anything and average people who try to stop harms to themselves and their communities get crushed. We’re now there; the question is whether we’ll pull back from this horror show, or whether it’ll continue its evolution toward a full-blown police state.
> 
> ...



So what?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 21, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Guess Which Oil Giant Sickeningly Predicted This Week's CO2 Nightmare 37 Years Ago
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You should stop using oil.


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 21, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Attorney General Eric Holder"
> 
> That's all you need to know about that settlement.
> 
> Isn't that the one where Holder gave the money away to leftwing propaganda operations?


"Attorney General Eric Holder and Associate Attorney General Tony West announced today that the Department of Justice has reached a $16.65 billion settlement with Bank of America Corporation – the largest civil settlement with a single entity in American history — to resolve federal and state claims against Bank of America and its former and current subsidiaries, including Countrywide Financial Corporation and Merrill Lynch. 

"As part of this global resolution, the bank has agreed to pay a $5 billion penalty under the Financial Institutions Reform, Recovery and Enforcement Act (FIRREA) – the largest FIRREA penalty ever – and provide billions of dollars of relief to struggling homeowners, including funds that will help defray tax liability as a result of mortgage modification, forbearance or forgiveness. 

"The settlement does not release individuals from civil charges, nor does it absolve Bank of America, its current or former subsidiaries and affiliates or any individuals from potential criminal prosecution."

Bank of America to Pay $16.65 Billion in Historic Justice Department Settlement for Financial Fraud Leading up to and During the Financial Crisis


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 21, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "Attorney General Eric Holder and Associate Attorney General Tony West announced today that the Department of Justice has reached a $16.65 billion settlement with Bank of America Corporation – the largest civil settlement with a single entity in American history — to resolve federal and state claims against Bank of America and its former and current subsidiaries, including Countrywide Financial Corporation and Merrill Lynch.
> 
> "As part of this global resolution, the bank has agreed to pay a $5 billion penalty under the Financial Institutions Reform, Recovery and Enforcement Act (FIRREA) – the largest FIRREA penalty ever – and provide billions of dollars of relief to struggling homeowners, including funds that will help defray tax liability as a result of mortgage modification, forbearance or forgiveness.
> 
> ...



It's nothing but a payoff to leftwing agitators.

Holder Cut Left-Wing Groups In On $17 Bil BofA Deal


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 21, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Guess Which Oil Giant Sickeningly Predicted This Week's CO2 Nightmare 37 Years Ago
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What CO2 nightmare?  Co2 is good for the environment.    Plants need it to live.


----------



## dblack (Oct 21, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> If not government, which institution should exercise exclusive legal control over US currency?



None.


----------



## dblack (Oct 21, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> You made the claim "(d)emocracy serves the interest of the majority" NOT all the people."
> 
> In the US it should be obvious to anyone with minimal reading skills that what passes for democracy in no way serves the interests of the majority.


Fair enough. Serving the interests of the majority is a best-case scenario. Throw corruption into the mix and it only gets worse.

Regardless of whether democracy follows the will of the majority, it doesn't respect the will of _all_ the people. Indeed, the entire purpose of democracy is to force the will of one faction of society (the majority) on everyone else. I expect you'll ignore this and post another cartoon.


----------



## kaz (Oct 21, 2021)

Dragonlady said:


> In short - Wealth.
> 
> I'm not surprised that you missed that.  Your understanding of economics has all the depth of a kiddy wading pool.



LOL, yeah, we should ask a communist like you what capitalism is if we want a real answer.   You're a hoot, and a Chinese disinformation officer


----------



## kaz (Oct 21, 2021)

Dragonlady said:


> So you're trying to say there is no wealth.  Without a surplus, you don't have anything to accumulate, and without accumulation, there is no wealth.
> 
> This is the ABC's of economics.  We're not talking rocket science here.



You're using the word "surplus" to justify armed robbery to confiscate and redistribute it.

Profit is economic value created typically by a business.   Leftists always use agenda driven terms, not reality terms


----------



## kaz (Oct 21, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Democracy is a form of government made by the people for all the people*



A load of bull disproven by that 1% of Americans pay almost half of all income taxes.  That is proof of what democracy is, mob rule.    And Democrats are still saying it isn't enough.

The United States is based on limited Federal power and State rights.    Power divided is power checked


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 21, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> How are they "criminal" when everything they did was totally legal?


"In an oligarchy, the rich can get away with anything and average people who try to stop harms to themselves and their communities get crushed. 

"We’re now there; the question is whether we’ll pull back from this horror show, or whether it’ll continue its evolution toward a full-blown police state.

*"The Sackler family, whose criminal Oxycontin drug-dealing killed over a half-million Americans and destroyed the lives of millions more, is close to a deal with the states to keep around $10 billion of their ill-gotten gain in exchange for giving the states a bit over $4 billion over a nine years. *

Brutal Capitalism: How America is transforming from a democracy to an oligarchy | The Milwaukee Independent

"Nobody will go to jail or even suffer an inconvenience like no longer being able to use a private jet or give up one of their many mansions.

"And it’s not like they were caught in a one-off crime. 

"In 2007, they reached a settlement with the government over their illegal and deadly marketing practices, promising to behave like good citizens. Then, as the Washington Post noted yesterday:"


----------



## kaz (Oct 21, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "In an oligarchy, the rich can get away with anything and average people who try to stop harms to themselves and their communities get crushed



So you think the "rich" pay all the taxes because they can "get away with anything."

Your shit is stupid.  Here's a dollar, buy a clue ...


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 21, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> I love that you get economic "wisdom" from a Marxist economist.


Where did you learn Economics?


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 21, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Because some propagandist prints a label on a chart, that doesn't make it reality. Furthermore, "Consumer Surplus" doesn't mean anything like what you imply it means. As the chart shows, if the economy is in equilibrium, there is no consumer surplus. I've never even seen the term used in any economics book I ever read.


*Which suggests you've never read an Economics text.*

What is economic surplus? Definition and meaning

"In mainstream economics an economic surplus refers to two related quantities:


Producer Surplus.
Consumer Surplus.
"Mainstream economics means orthodox economics, i.e., what most universities across the world teach and discuss.

Economic surplus is also known as _Marshallian surplus_, named after the British economist Alfred Marshall (1842-1924) who made the term widely known – economists also use _‘total welfare’_ with the same meaning."


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 21, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Where did you learn Economics?



Where did you learn economics?

Lenin University?

Is that why you earned so much during your lifetime?

Your education?


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 21, 2021)

struth said:


> Socialist in Venezula who got rich making the people poor, oppressing them, and robbing their natural resources.....blame the USA.....sure....I get it.


*US capitalists bled Venezuela for decades before socialists in Venezuela assumed control over their natural resources. Who else except the US gets the blame for that?*

United States–Venezuela relations - Wikipedia

"After Hugo Chávez was first elected President of Venezuela by a landslide in 1998, the South American country began to reassert sovereignty over its oil reserves. 

"This action challenged the comfortable position held by U.S. economic interests for the better part of a century. 

"The Chávez administration overturned the privatization of the state-owned oil company PDVSA, raising royalties for foreign firms and eventually doubling the country's GDP..."

"*Those oil revenues were used to fund social programs aimed at fostering human development in areas such as health, education, employment, housing, technology, culture, pensions, and access to safe drinking water."*


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 21, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "The Chávez administration overturned the privatization of the state-owned oil company PDVSA, raising royalties for foreign firms and eventually doubling the country's GDP..."



He was awesome!!!

How does their current, government owned production, compare to the
privatized production?


----------



## jasonnfree (Oct 21, 2021)

Pretty strong stuff the OP puts out.  Could be a time where this country becomes like  England in the 1800's.  People sleeping in the streets (they already are), young kids prostituting them selves because they and their family are dead broke. We already have three individuals who own more wealth than the bottom fifty percent of Americans.  So when is enough enough?  When one individual owns 90% of the wealth?








						PolitiFact - Bernie Sanders: Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos, Warren Buffett have more wealth than bottom half of U.S.
					

Do three Americans really have more wealth than half the country? It’s a claim made by the runner-up for the 2016 Democr




					www.politifact.com


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 21, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Communist propaganda.


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 21, 2021)

dblack said:


> Only if you think democratic government should control the economy.


I prefer democratic control of the economy over the stewardship of brokers, banks, stock markets, investors, and capital markets; how about you?




Neoliberalism – the ideology at the root of all our problems


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 21, 2021)

kaz said:


> LOL, yeah, we should ask a communist like you what capitalism is if we want a real answer.   You're a hoot, and a Chinese disinformation officer


Dragonlady believes the labor theory of value is sound economics.


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 21, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "In an oligarchy, the rich can get away with anything and average people who try to stop harms to themselves and their communities get crushed.


Just as I thought:  there is nothing criminal about making money legally.


georgephillip said:


> "We’re now there; the question is whether we’ll pull back from this horror show, or whether it’ll continue its evolution toward a full-blown police state.
> 
> *"The Sackler family, whose criminal Oxycontin drug-dealing killed over a half-million Americans and destroyed the lives of millions more, is close to a deal with the states to keep around $10 billion of their ill-gotten gain in exchange for giving the states a bit over $4 billion over a nine years. *
> 
> ...



Did you have any actual facts or logic to post?


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 21, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Which suggests you've never read an Economics text.*
> 
> What is economic surplus? Definition and meaning
> 
> ...


Your own chart shows there is no "surplus" if the economy is in equilibrium, which is 99% of the time.


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 21, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *US capitalists bled Venezuela for decades before socialists in Venezuela assumed control over their natural resources. Who else except the US gets the blame for that?*
> 
> United States–Venezuela relations - Wikipedia
> 
> ...


Here we go: the old saw about how capitalism caused the failures of socialism.

Thanks to those social programs, Venezuelans had to eat their pets, and they have lost 30 lbs in the last year.


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 21, 2021)

georgephillip said:


>


People like you are incredibly fucking stupid.


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 21, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> I prefer democratic control of the economy over the stewardship of brokers, banks, stock markets, investors, and capital markets; how about you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's because you're an imbecile.  How did that social control work for Venezuela?  Cuba?  North Korea?


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 21, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Government caused the global financial crisis


*The best government money can buy contributed to creating the Great Recession; who got rich from that?*

Neoliberalism – the ideology at the root of all our problems

"After Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan took power, the rest of the package soon followed: *massive tax cuts for the rich, the crushing of trade unions, deregulation, privatisation, outsourcing and competition in public services.* 

"Through the IMF, the World Bank, the Maastricht treaty and the World Trade Organisation, neoliberal policies were imposed – *often without democratic consent* – on much of the world."


----------



## dblack (Oct 21, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> I prefer democratic control of the economy over the stewardship of brokers, banks, stock markets, investors, and capital markets; how about you?


Exactly the opposite. When you say "democratic control" you mean government control. You mean centralized, coercive control. I absolutely do NOT want government to have more power over the economy.


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 21, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *The best government money can buy contributed to creating the Great Recession; who got rich from that?*
> 
> Neoliberalism – the ideology at the root of all our problems
> 
> ...


How does that prove government didn't cause the financial panic?


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 21, 2021)

Thunderbird said:


> Can you acknowledge that Obama, the Clintons, Biden and other prominent Democrats are part of the problem?


*Absolutely. Democrats like Clinton and Obama served Wall Street as diligently as Republicans. *

Democrats and neoliberalism

"It is actually not the first time Democrats have been called neoliberal. 

"In the early 1980s, the term emerged to describe a group of figures also called the Watergate Babies, Atari Democrats, and New Democrats, many of whom eventually became affiliated with the Democratic Leadership Council (DLC). 

"In this iteration, the term neoliberal was embraced not as opprobrium. 

"Rather, it used a form of self-description and differentiation to imply that they were 'new Democrats.' 

"In 1982, Washington Monthly editor Charles Peters published 'A Neo-Liberal’s Manifesto,' which aimed to lay out the core principles of this group; two years later, journalist Randall Rothenberg wrote a book called _The Neoliberals_ that sought to codify and celebrate this cohort’s ascendency."


----------



## struth (Oct 21, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *US capitalists bled Venezuela for decades before socialists in Venezuela assumed control over their natural resources. Who else except the US gets the blame for that?*
> 
> United States–Venezuela relations - Wikipedia
> 
> ...


the socialist who destroyed what was working.


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 21, 2021)

Thunderbird said:


> Can you acknowledge the massive failures of Communist regimes?


Sure.
Can you acknowledge Stalin's WWII economic miracle when Communism destroyed the Nazi capitalist hordes? 

How about capitalisms many failures in attempting to supplant feudalism?

Do you know how many human beings capitalism is killing today to maintain its profit margins?




Tallying Capitalism’s Death Toll


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 21, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Sure.
> Can you acknowledge Stalin's WWII economic miracle when Communism destroyed the Nazi capitalist hordes?
> 
> How about capitalisms many failures in attempting to supplant feudalism?
> ...



Where did capitalism kill 5 million from lack of drinking water?


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 21, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Here we go: the old saw about how capitalism caused the failures of socialism.
> 
> Thanks to those social programs, Venezuelans had to eat their pets, and they have lost 30 lbs in the last year.



Except that the poverty in Venezuela is caused by the illegal economic sanctions, not socialism.
Nor do I consider Venezuela remotely socialist.


----------



## Thunderbird (Oct 21, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Sure.
> Can you acknowledge Stalin's WWII economic miracle when Communism destroyed the Nazi capitalist hordes?
> 
> How about capitalisms many failures in attempting to supplant feudalism?
> ...


Stop kissing Stalin’s ass. Because of Stalin’s gross incompetence millions of Soviet citizens died: Joseph Stalin's Paranoid Purge - Warfare History Network

We can thank the US and UK for providing the Soviets with war materiel: 'We Would Have Lost': Did U.S. Lend-Lease Aid Tip The Balance In Soviet Fight Against Nazi Germany?

Are poor African countries devoted to capitalism? 

Capitalism can help the poor: Capitalism Is Good for the Poor | Steven Horwitz


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 22, 2021)

ThunderKiss1965 said:


> rumps not a Conservative.


Trump's a crony capitalist equally willing to support Hillary Clinton or Qanon depending on short-term gain.


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 22, 2021)

dblack said:


> Circling back around to the topic: "Capitalism is NOT Democratic: Democracy is NOT Capitalist"


Is capitalism compatible with democracy?
Specifically is Friedman, Hayak finance capitalism compatible with one person-one vote?




Intro to the Study of Political Economy continued


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 22, 2021)

g5000 said:


> The Soviet Union invaded Eastern Europe and dropped an Iron Curtain. Stalin created a man-made famine in the Ukraine and murdered 30 million people. THAT is murder and stealing.


*The Russians dropped the Iron Curtain in order to prevent western capitalists from invading their homeland as had happened twice in the 20th century. The causes of the Holodomor are more complicated than you suggest:*

Causes of the Holodomor - Wikipedia

"Sources such as _Encyclopædia Britannica_ say there was no physical basis for famine in Ukraine, and that Soviet authorities set quotas for Ukraine at exceedingly high levels.[13] 

"However Soviet archive data suggests the grain harvest was not as large as has been assumed, and the Ukrainian historian Mykhailo Hrushevsky, who lived through the period in question and was himself a victim of a Stalinist purge, described the famine as preceded by 'a year of drought coincid[ing] with chaotic agricultural conditions.'[14][15]

"This suggests that the famine was caused by a combination of a severe drought, chaotic implementation of forced collectivization of farms, and the food requisition program carried out by the Soviet authorities."


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 22, 2021)

struth said:


> Capitalism allows anyone to be an owner and the people decide what they want and how much they want produced in a capitalist society. Producers make what the people demand, the people set the price, etc. Moreover in a capitalist society anyone can become an owner


*And every capitalist who becomes an owner falls  prey to the same internal contradictions that have plagued capitalism since it replaced feudalism:*

Internal contradictions of capital accumulation - Wikipedia

"Economic geographer David Harvey argues that the multi-stage process of capital accumulation reveals a number of internal contradictions:


"Step 1 – The power of labor is broken down and wages fall. This is referred to as 'wage repression' or 'wage deflation' and is accomplished by outsourcing and offshoring production.[1]
Step 2 – *Corporate profits—especially in the financial sector—increase, roughly in proportion to the degree to which wages fall in some sectors of the economy.**[*1]
Step 3 – In order to maintain the growth of profits catalyzed by wage deflation, it is necessary to sell or 'supply' the market with more goods."


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 22, 2021)

struth said:


> in leftist society, none of that is possible because the Govt owns it all, sets the price, and produces what they want


Socialism advocates the collective ownership of the means of production. The government is one of several possible alternatives to our current "privatize profits/socialize costs economic paradigm.


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 22, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Rising productivity? That sounds awful!!!


*Stagnating wages?
That sounds systemic*

Internal contradictions of capital accumulation - Wikipedia

"The *internal contradictions of capital accumulation* is an essential concept of crisis theory, which is associated with Marxist economic theory. While the same phenomenon is described in neoclassical economic theory, in that literature it is referred to as systemic risk."


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 22, 2021)

elektra said:


> People are so quick to declare their utopian vision of government and economy superior they never consider it has been tried and failed.
> 
> Yes. We have the foul mouthed democrats denigrating everything they have not created.
> 
> ...


Anyone who isn't willing to recognize capitalism's many failures (like eternal war and endless debt, genocide, and chattel slavery) are likely apologists for a status quo that has long outlived its usefulness to productive members of society.


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 22, 2021)

22lcidw said:


> Any way of living...Capitalism, Socialism, Communism, Fascism and more are not part of Freedom which is from a Republic. Not Democracy. The Constitution say nothing about those different systems. It tells us we are a Republic. And we are not anymore. We are a Democracy as we are kept being told by the politicians.


*Any meaningful and lasting freedom comes from public power instead of rule by a monarch or a collection of (slave owning) oligarchs.*

Republic - Wikipedia

"A *republic* (Latin: _res publica_, meaning 'public affair') is a form of government in which 'power is held by the people and their elected representatives'.[1] In republics, the country is considered a 'public matter', not the private concern or property of the rulers."


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 22, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> So what?








​
"America’s billionaires have grown $2.1 trillion richer during the pandemic, their collective fortune skyrocketing by 70 percent — from just short of $3 trillion at the start of the COVID crisis on March 18, 2020, to over $5 trillion on October 15 of this year, according to Forbes data analyzed by Americans for Tax Fairness (ATF) and the Institute for Policy Studies Program on Inequality (IPS).

"Not only did the wealth of U.S. billionaires grow, but so did their numbers: in March of last year, there were 614 Americans with 10-figure bank accounts. 

"Today there are 745.

"The $5 trillion in wealth now held by 745 billionaires is two-thirds more than the $3 trillion in wealth held by the bottom 50 percent of U.S. households estimated by the Federal Reserve Board.

"The great good fortune of these billionaires over the past 19 months is even starker when contrasted with the devastating impact of coronavirus on working people. 

"Almost 89 million Americans have lost jobs, over 44.9 million have been sickened by the virus, and over 724,000 have died from it.

"To put this extraordinary wealth growth in perspective, the $2.1 trillion gain over 19 months by U.S. billionaires is equal to:

60 percent of the $3.5 trillion 10-year cost of President Biden’s Build Back Better plan.
The entire $2.1 trillion in new revenues over 10 years approved by the House Ways and Means Committee to help pay for President Biden’s Build Back Better (BBB) investment plan."
U.S. Billionaires are Now $2.1 Trillion Richer Than Before the Pandemic - Inequality.org


----------



## struth (Oct 22, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *And every capitalist who becomes an owner falls  prey to the same internal contradictions that have plagued capitalism since it replaced feudalism:*
> 
> Internal contradictions of capital accumulation - Wikipedia
> 
> ...


Yes, owners want to maximize profits...that's not anything new or surprising. 

Owners can't supply the market more then what is demanded, then they will lose money

Owners can't also make wages so low that nobody will work for them, or they'll have no employees helping make the products or service. 

But, it's certainly true, and they want to maximize their profits.  I am not sure how that's some sort of new concept.


----------



## struth (Oct 22, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Socialism advocates the collective ownership of the means of production. The government is one of several possible alternatives to our current "privatize profits/socialize costs economic paradigm.


Socialism is the Govt owning the means of production.

Certainly, we can have numerous owners, we can have employee ownership of a company...we in fact do in the United States...that's not socialism...because the private individuals own it.   Capitalism allows for that, Socialism doesn't.


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 22, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> t's nothing but a payoff to leftwing agitators.


*Left-wing agitators fighting for the victims of corporate fraud deserve support at least as much as corporate criminals deserve jail time*.

Bank of America: Corporate Rap Sheet | Corporate Research Project

"In 1985 Bank of America ended a ten-year battle with the California state controller by agreeing to pay $25.4 million to customers whose dormant accounts were not paid interest and were eventually wiped out by illegal service charges. 

"A decade later, California’s attorney general sued Bank of America, accusing it of corruption in its role as bond trustee for the state by misappropriating funds, overcharging for services and destroying evidence of its misdeeds. 

"Dozens of local governments joined the suit, which created potential liability for the bank of some $3 billion. 

"As _SF Weekly_ put it in a 5,000-word story in 1997, the lawsuits alleged “a truly astonishing pattern of utterly brazen thievery.” In 1998 Bank of America agreed to pay $187 million to settle the case."


----------



## dblack (Oct 22, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Is capitalism compatible with democracy?


Capitalism isn't democratic (in the one vote, one person sense). But that doesn't mean the two aren't compatible. It just means that capitalism denies government control of the economy.

It's like asking if the First Amendment is compatible with democracy. The First Amendment isn't, itself, democratic. It's part of the Constitution and not subject to change by majority rule. But that doesn't meant it isn't _compatible_ with democracy generally. It just means government can't be used to control speech or religion.


----------



## dblack (Oct 22, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The government is one of several possible alternatives to our current "privatize profits/socialize costs economic paradigm.


Most of the people speaking out against socialism are referring to state socialism. The non-governmental solutions aren't the issue. If you want to create an "employee owned" company or start your own commune, have it it. As long as it's voluntary, as long as you're not using force to compel others to play along, I have no problem with it.

But c'mon - are you really pretending that's all you want? If so, what are you complaining about?


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 22, 2021)

dblack said:


> None.


*Without exclusive legal control of currency legal tender would become obsolete. Is that something you support?*

Legal tender - Wikipedia

*"Legal tender* is a form of money that courts of law are required to recognize as satisfactory payment for any monetary debt.[1] 

"Each jurisdiction determines what is legal tender, but essentially it is anything which when offered ('tendered') in payment of a debt extinguishes the debt. 

"There is no obligation on the creditor to accept the tendered payment, but the act of tendering the payment in legal tender discharges the debt."


----------



## dblack (Oct 22, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Without exclusive legal control of currency legal tender would become obsolete.


Ahh....so you're equivocating on terminology. Shocker.

We don't need "legal tender". There are other means of currency and trade. And the sooner we remove currency from government control, the better.


----------



## dblack (Oct 22, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Any meaningful and lasting freedom comes from public power instead of rule by a monarch or a collection of (slave owning) oligarchs.


Freedom is slavery?


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 22, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Trump's a crony capitalist equally willing to support Hillary Clinton or Qanon depending on short-term gain.



Biden is just a plain crook who takes bribes.


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 22, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Anyone who isn't willing to recognize capitalism's many failures (like eternal war and endless debt, genocide, and chattel slavery) are likely apologists for a status quo that has long outlived its usefulness to productive members of society.



Government is responsible for those.  The idea the capitalism invented slavery or war is absurd.  Slavery is as old as civilization.  Those are the failures of government and civilization.  Only a sleazy douchebag would try to pin them on capitalism which didn't even exist until 200 years ago.  

You're just a sleazy lying propagandist.


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 22, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Left-wing agitators fighting for the victims of corporate fraud deserve support at least as much as corporate criminals deserve jail time*.
> 
> Bank of America: Corporate Rap Sheet | Corporate Research Project
> 
> ...


How does that justify paying billions from a legal settlement to leftwing agitators?


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 22, 2021)

dblack said:


> Regardless of whether democracy follows the will of the majority, it doesn't respect the will of _all_ the people. Indeed, the entire purpose of democracy is to force the will of one faction of society (the majority) on everyone else.


Compared to a monarchy or an oligarchy, democracy protects individual rights far more effectively than either elitist option. In theory giving people the right to choose their rulers elevates freedom of speech more than any other form of government. Tyrants and aristocrats have seldom found any use for free speech.


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 22, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Compared to a monarchy or an oligarchy, democracy protects individual rights far more effectively than either elitist option. In theory giving people the right to choose their rulers elevates freedom of speech more than any other form of government. Tyrants and aristocrats have seldom found any use for free speech.


"In theory," perhaps, but in reality it doesn't.

Furthermore, all you prog douchebags are opposed to freedom of speech.   Progs have seldom found any use for free speech.  They call it "hate speech."


----------



## elektra (Oct 22, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Anyone who isn't willing to recognize capitalism's many failures (like eternal war and endless debt, genocide, and chattel slavery) are likely apologists for a status quo that has long outlived its usefulness to productive members of society.


Yes, in a world of tyrants and dictators and the corrupt, capitalism being the only force for good, is easily accused of being the culprit. Certainly in your eyes, the eyes of those who relish tyranny, capitalism is what the bad must fight against.


----------



## dblack (Oct 22, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Compared to a monarchy or an oligarchy, democracy protects individual rights far more effectively than either elitist option. In theory giving people the right to choose their rulers elevates freedom of speech more than any other form of government. Tyrants and aristocrats have seldom found any use for free speech.


Yeah. If you have it in your head that our choices are limited to monarchy, oligarchy or socialism - well, you live in a bleak world.


----------



## danielpalos (Oct 22, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf
> 
> "Capitalism and democracy follow different logics: unequally distributed property rights on the one hand, equal civic and political rights on the other; profit oriented trade within capitalism in contrast to the search for the common good within democracy; debate, compromise and majority decision-making within democratic politics versus hierarchical decision-making by managers and capital owners.
> 
> ...


It is why we have a mixed-market economy that is part capitalism and part socialism.  

Government must be the socialism part since it is an externality to Capitalism.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 22, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Stagnating wages?
> That sounds systemic*
> 
> Internal contradictions of capital accumulation - Wikipedia
> ...



_Marxist economic theory__._

LOL!


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 22, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Stagnating wages?



I'm sorry that you never made more than minimum wage.
Your failure is not the fault of the system.


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 22, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Stagnating wages?
> That sounds systemic*
> 
> Internal contradictions of capital accumulation - Wikipedia
> ...


Can you explain the labor theory of value and how it isn't complete horseshit?


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 22, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> _Marxist economic theory__._
> 
> LOL!


He posted an oxymoron.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 22, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> ​
> "America’s billionaires have grown $2.1 trillion richer during the pandemic, their collective fortune skyrocketing by 70 percent — from just short of $3 trillion at the start of the COVID crisis on March 18, 2020, to over $5 trillion on October 15 of this year, according to Forbes data analyzed by Americans for Tax Fairness (ATF) and the Institute for Policy Studies Program on Inequality (IPS).
> 
> "Not only did the wealth of U.S. billionaires grow, but so did their numbers: in March of last year, there were 614 Americans with 10-figure bank accounts.
> ...



_"America’s billionaires have grown $2.1 trillion richer during the pandemic, their collective fortune skyrocketing by 70 percent — from just short of $3 trillion at the start of the COVID crisis on March 18, 2020, to over $5 trillion on October 15 of this year, according to Forbes data analyzed by Americans for Tax Fairness (ATF) and the Institute for Policy Studies Program on Inequality (IPS)._

Yup, stock holders make money when their stock goes up. So what?


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 22, 2021)

kaz said:


> A load of bull disproven by that 1% of Americans pay almost half of all income taxes. That is proof of what democracy is, mob rule. And Democrats are still saying it isn't enough


If the richest one percent pay almost half of all income taxes, what does that tell you about changes in the US income distribution over the past forty years?
A Guide to Statistics on Historical Trends in Income Inequality | Center on Budget and Policy Priorities




Since the pandemic began, 745 US billionaires have gotten 2.1 trillion dollars richer while 89 million Americans lost their jobs and nearly 750,000 lost their lives. You should probably worry less about dividing federal power and worry more about restricting corporate power.


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 22, 2021)

kaz said:


> So you think the "rich" pay all the taxes because they can "get away with anything."


Who told you the rich pay all the taxes?




Trump’s strategy for selling his tax reform plan is to outright lie about it


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 22, 2021)

jasonnfree said:


> Pretty strong stuff the OP puts out.  Could be a time where this country becomes like  England in the 1800's.  People sleeping in the streets (they already are), young kids prostituting them selves because they and their family are dead broke. We already have three individuals who own more wealth than the bottom fifty percent of Americans.  So when is enough enough?  When one individual owns 90% of the wealth?
> 
> 
> 
> ...







In 1929 unfettered capitalism crashed the global economy.
FDR's New Deal and WWII built the biggest middle class in world history.
That began to end in the 1970s, and Reagan finished it off.
The rich never have enough, and it seems likely their wealth doesn't exist without war and debt.
When the end finally comes I'm pretty sure immigrants will take the blame?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 22, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> If the richest one percent pay almost half of all income taxes, what does that tell you about changes in the US income distribution over the past forty years?
> A Guide to Statistics on Historical Trends in Income Inequality | Center on Budget and Policy Priorities
> 
> 
> ...







Thanks! Even the people at the 20th percentile are doing better.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 22, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> In 1929 unfettered capitalism crashed the global economy.



How'd your commie heroes do in the 1930s?


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 22, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Just as I thought: there is nothing criminal about making money legally.


*Nothing criminal about the Sackler family?*


"The lack of criminal charges is controversial, in part, because the Justice Department itself alleges in new filings that members of *the Sackler family approved a scheme to boost opioid prescribing that the company now admits was illegal.*

"Acting on the family's authority Purdue Pharma 'intensified their marketing of OxyContin to extreme, high-volume prescribers who were already writing 25 times as many OxyContin scripts as their peers,' according to the DOJ.

"Federal prosecutors name David Sackler, Jonathan Sackler, Kathe Sackler, Mortimer Sackler and Richard Sackler as playing a direct role in that effort.

"Justice Department officials also allege the Sacklers engaged in 'fraudulent' financial activity, as they worked to shelter billions of dollars in opioid profits from future lawsuits."


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 22, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Did you have any actual facts or logic to post?


As if you're capable of recognizing either.


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 22, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Your own chart shows there is no "surplus" if the economy is in equilibrium, which is 99% of the time.


Can't spot any surplus?




*Economic surplus – 2 quantities*​– *Producer Surplus:* this is the difference between how much a supplier sold something for and how cheaply he or she would have gone (minimum selling price). For example, if I sell 1,000 widgets for $10,000 ($10 each), but I would have gone as low as $6 each, my producer surplus is 10 minus 6 times 1,000 = $4,000.

– *Consumer Surplus:* this is similar to the one above, but from a consumer’s point of view. It is the difference between how much a consumer purchased an item for, and how high he would have gone – the top price he/she would have accepted."


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 22, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Here we go: the old saw about how capitalism caused the failures of socialism.


*Your ignorance is truly Trumpian.*

American Imperialism in Venezuela

"One of the largest contributing factors to Venezuela’s economic crisis as it currently stands is the sanctions set by the Trump administration to oust Nicolas Maduro from power. 

"According to a press release from the U.S. Department of the Treasury, the sanctions set on the Venezuelan regime in 2017 meant 'all assets of these individuals subject to U.S. jurisdiction are frozen, and U.S. persons are prohibited from dealing with them.' 

*"Under these sanctions CITGO, a state-owned company who averaged around $1 billion USD every year since 2015, cannot refer any revenues and shares back to Venezuela as CITGO is in Texas. *

"Additionally, New York state law governs all of Venezuela’s foreign currency bonds. 

"The resulted loss in 2017 was staggering, the contrast in income using data from the 12 months before sanctions totals at about $6 billion.

"This example represents just one of many sanctions. 

"America’s attempts to control Maduro and remove him from power have only cost Venezuelans any chance at comfortable living as Maduro gives no indication that he will yield. 

"Maduro blames the United States for the perceived 'economic war;' waged on Venezuelans through Trump’s numerous sanctions. 

"Maduro continues to blame his economic problems on the United States without acknowledging his reliance on socialism within a failed petro-state. 

"Meanwhile, the U.S. is meddling in the country’s affairs in a largely counterproductive manner. 

"These sanctions are only worsening the economic and political situation in Venezuela as Maduro stays in power."


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 22, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Your ignorance is truly Trumpian.*
> 
> American Imperialism in Venezuela
> 
> ...



Why did Venezuela suck before the sanctions?


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 22, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> That's because you're an imbecile. How did that social control work for Venezuela? Cuba? North Korea?


*How did neoliberalism work for Venezuela, Cuba, or North Korea?*




"It may seem strange that a doctrine promising choice and freedom should have been promoted with the slogan 'there is no alternative'. 

"But, as Hayek remarked on a visit to Pinochet’s Chile – one of the first nations in which the programme was comprehensively applied – '*my personal preference leans toward a liberal dictatorship rather than toward a democratic government devoid of liberalism'. *

"The freedom that neoliberalism offers, which sounds so beguiling when expressed in general terms, turns out to mean freedom for the pike, not for the minnows."

Neoliberalism – the ideology at the root of all our problems


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 22, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *How did neoliberalism work for Venezuela, Cuba, or North Korea?*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You mean communism, jackass.


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 22, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Your ignorance is truly Trumpian.*
> 
> American Imperialism in Venezuela
> 
> ...


Commies like you never stop trying to blame capitalism for your disasters.  Only the morons are fooled.


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 22, 2021)

dblack said:


> Exactly the opposite. When you say "democratic control" you mean government control. You mean centralized, coercive control. I absolutely do NOT want government to have more power over the economy.


When I say "democratic control" I mean public regulation designed to enhance long term economic goals that benefit the 99% of Americans instead of the short term speculation favored by brokers, bankers, investors, and capital markets. How much more economic inequality do you think this country needs?


----------



## dblack (Oct 22, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> When I say "democratic control" I mean public regulation designed to enhance long term economic goals that benefit the 99% of Americans instead of the short term speculation favored by brokers, bankers, investors, and capital markets.



Exactly. State control of the economy is a bad idea. It gives government far too much power. 


> How much more economic inequality do you think this country needs?



As much as it takes. Income inequality is a good thing. As long as it's the result of voluntary trade, it's the truest representation of the "will of the people". Far moreso than simple majority rule.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 22, 2021)

dblack said:


> Exactly. State control of the economy is a bad idea. It gives government far too much power.
> 
> 
> As much as it takes. Income inequality is a good thing. As long as it's the result of voluntary trade, it's the truest representation of the "will of the people". Far moreso than simple majority rule.



If and when the people are government, then government can't have too much power.

Since when has any trade been voluntary?
First there was feudalism, then imperialism, colonialism, monopolies, illegal trusts, slavery, etc.


----------



## dblack (Oct 22, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> If and when the people are government, then government can't have too much power.


"The people" are _always_ government. That's why it sucks to high heaven.


Rigby5 said:


> Since when has any trade been voluntary?


When have you last been forced to trade?


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 22, 2021)

dblack said:


> "The people" are _always_ government. That's why it sucks to high heaven.
> 
> When have you last been forced to trade?



No, government is always the most aggressive and assertive, and they always try to prevent any power sharing with the majority.

Everyone is always forced to trade and would otherwise prefer not to.
We are forced to pay rent, spend all day at a job, buy food, etc.
Primitives spend less than 2 hours a day on survival, compared to 11 hours a day for us.


----------



## g5000 (Oct 22, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *The Russians dropped the Iron Curtain in order to prevent western capitalists from invading their homeland as had happened twice in the 20th century.*


Those were sovereign countries they invaded and imprisoned, dipshit.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 22, 2021)

g5000 said:


> Those were sovereign countries they invaded and imprisoned, dipshit.



I am not at all a fan of the USSR, but they did have a value excuse for being a little paranoid and wanting not only a buffer, but economic allies.
They did not "invade" the Warsaw Pact countries, but liberated them from the Fascists.
To the Germans, these countries were just Lebensraum.  ( the territory that a state or nation believes is needed for its natural development, especially associated with Nazi Germany. )


----------



## g5000 (Oct 22, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> I am not at all a fan of the USSR, but they did have a value excuse for being a little paranoid and wanting not only a buffer, but economic allies.
> They did not "invade" the Warsaw Pact countries, but liberated them from the Fascists.
> To the Germans, these countries were just Lebensraum.  ( the territory that a state or nation believes is needed for its natural development, especially associated with Nazi Germany. )


Liberated, my ass.  We liberated France.  We gave them their country back.

Life under the USSR was as bad as life under the Nazis.


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 22, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> If and when the people are government, then government can't have too much power.
> 
> Since when has any trade been voluntary?
> First there was feudalism, then imperialism, colonialism, monopolies, illegal trusts, slavery, etc.



The people are never the government.  That's a fantasy.


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 22, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> If and when the people are government, then government can't have too much power.
> 
> Since when has any trade been voluntary?
> First there was feudalism, then imperialism, colonialism, monopolies, illegal trusts, slavery, etc.




All trade is voluntary.  Otherwise, it's not trade.


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 22, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> When I say "democratic control" I mean public regulation designed to enhance long term economic goals that benefit the 99% of Americans instead of the short term speculation favored by brokers, bankers, investors, and capital markets. How much more economic inequality do you think this country needs?


You mean fascism.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 22, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Since when has any trade been voluntary?



I just voluntarily bought some beer.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 22, 2021)

g5000 said:


> Those were sovereign countries they invaded and imprisoned, dipshit.



They were enslaved for their own good.

Russia still doesn't understand why they all wanted to join NATO.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 22, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> They did not "invade" the Warsaw Pact countries, but liberated them from the Fascists.



Liberated the shit out of them, eh comrade?


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 22, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> The people are never the government.  That's a fantasy.



That is why I said if and when.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 22, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> All trade is voluntary.  Otherwise, it's not trade.



Sure it is.
A monopoly, extortion, blackmail, etc. is not voluntary, but is still trade.
It is not what you want or deserve, but you take the best deal you can get.


----------



## themirrorthief (Oct 22, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf
> 
> "Capitalism and democracy follow different logics: unequally distributed property rights on the one hand, equal civic and political rights on the other; profit oriented trade within capitalism in contrast to the search for the common good within democracy; debate, compromise and majority decision-making within democratic politics versus hierarchical decision-making by managers and capital owners.
> 
> ...


without  money  you  have zero  freedom  try  taking a vacation  or  doing  anything  when  your  ass  is  broke


----------



## themirrorthief (Oct 22, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The New Deal created the greatest middle class in history after capitalism collapsed the global economy in 1929. Central planning won both world wars in the 20th century. By early 2020 when the MAGA pandemic first began shutting down the world economy, 87 million US residents lacked adequate healthcare and 40% could not afford an unexpected $400 expense.
> 
> In the richest country in history 40 million people were poor, half of all workers lived paycheck to paycheck, and 12% of the population had experienced food insecurity at some point during the preceding year.
> 
> ...


the  new  deal did  nothing  but  world  war  2  ended  the  depression  dumbass


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 22, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> You mean fascism.



No, fascism is an alliance of the wealthy elite, the businessmen, military, aristocracy, and religion, to control the rest.
When the majority instead creates regulations to prevent the wealthy elite from dictating, that is the opposite of fascism.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 22, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> They were enslaved for their own good.
> 
> Russia still doesn't understand why they all wanted to join NATO.



They preferred the Soviets to the Nazis.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 22, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Liberated the shit out of them, eh comrade?



The Russians eventually removed all controls, once they were less paranoid.
At one point the Russians thought the US was going to attack them as well.
They just wanted a buffer and a means of resisting future attacks.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 22, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> They preferred the Soviets to the Nazis.



Sure they did, Ivan.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 22, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> I just voluntarily bought some beer.
> 
> View attachment 555221



How much did you voluntarily pay for that beer?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 22, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> The Russians eventually removed all controls, once they were less paranoid.
> At one point the Russians thought the US was going to attack them as well.
> They just wanted a buffer and a means of resisting future attacks.



*The Russians eventually removed all controls, once they were less paranoid.*

When did they get less paranoid? LOL!

Biggest nation in the world, worst inferiority complex.

*They just wanted a buffer and a means of resisting future attacks.*

Poor Russia. You think Stalin regretted splitting Poland with his ally, Hitler?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 22, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> How much did you voluntarily pay for that beer?



$12.99


----------



## dblack (Oct 22, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> $12.99


You were _forced_ to pay that, don't you see?


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 22, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *The Russians eventually removed all controls, once they were less paranoid.*
> 
> When did they get less paranoid? LOL!
> 
> ...



Biggest in geography, not population or production, because most of it is not livable.
Size only makes it worse, because they have Europeans attacking them on the west, and Chinese/Japanese attacking them on the east.
Not like the US, surrounded by water on both sides.


----------



## progressive hunter (Oct 22, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Biggest in geography, not population or production, because most of it is not livable.
> Size only makes it worse, because they have Europeans attacking them on the west, and Chinese/Japanese attacking them on the east.
> Not like the US, surrounded by water on both sides.


the USA has 4 sides not 2


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 22, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Biggest in geography, not population or production, because most of it is not livable.
> Size only makes it worse, because they have Europeans attacking them on the west, and Chinese/Japanese attacking them on the east.
> Not like the US, surrounded by water on both sides.



*Biggest in geography,*

Yup. And still whining that everyone wants to invade.

*Size only makes it worse, because they have Europeans attacking them on the west,*

Which Europeans are attacking them on the west?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 22, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> the USA has 4 sides not 2



He's Russian. After his daily bottle of vodka, his math gets worse.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 22, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> the USA has 4 sides not 2



No one is going to land in the Arctic circle in order to attack us through Canada.
And Mexico is not wide enough for anyone to attack from the south.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 22, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *Biggest in geography,*
> 
> Yup. And still whining that everyone wants to invade.
> 
> ...



Napoleon, Hitler, etc.
The US looked like it was going to attack with all the propaganda of McCarthyism in the 50s.


----------



## progressive hunter (Oct 22, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> No one is going to land in the Arctic circle in order to attack us through Canada.
> And Mexico is not wide enough for anyone to attack from the south.


china already has troops in canada and people from all over the world are coming across the mexican border,,,

youre not that smart of a person for having so many opinions,,


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 22, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> He's Russian. After his daily bottle of vodka, his math gets worse.



4 sides make no sense.
Countries are not cubes.
About as silly as saying 2 side, and inside and an outside.


----------



## dblack (Oct 22, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> 4 sides make no sense.
> Countries are not cubes.
> About as silly as saying 2 side, and inside and an outside.











						TimeCube.2enp.com
					

In 1884, meridian time personnel met in Washington to change Earth time. First words said was that only 1 day could be used on Earth to not change the 1 day marshmallow



					timecube.2enp.com


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 22, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Napoleon, Hitler, etc.



No one more recent? LOL!

*The US looked like it was going to attack with all the propaganda of McCarthyism in the 50s.*

Propaganda? Russia sucked then, they suck now. Truth hurts.


----------



## progressive hunter (Oct 22, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> 4 sides make no sense.
> Countries are not cubes.
> About as silly as saying 2 side, and inside and an outside.


neither are they flat lines,,

we have an east and west coast and a northern and southern border


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 22, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> china already has troops in canada and people from all over the world are coming across the mexican border,,,
> 
> youre not that smart of a person for having so many opinions,,



What Chinese troops in Canada?
Do you mean embassy guards?

The Mexican immigrants can cross because the area is vacant.
If some foreign country were to start landing troops, I think someone would notice, and AZ and MN are mostly open desert, so would be about the single worst place to attack anyone.


----------



## progressive hunter (Oct 22, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> What Chinese troops in Canada?
> Do you mean embassy guards?
> 
> The Mexican immigrants can cross because the area is vacant.
> If some foreign country were to start landing troops, I think someone would notice, and AZ and MN are mostly open desert, so would be about the single worst place to attack anyone.


and yet again you prove me right,,


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 22, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> neither are they flat lines,,
> 
> we have an east and west coast and a northern and southern border



Yes, and if someone were to try to attack us, they would have to try either the east or west coast, or both.
The north and south borders would not be possible to attack from.


----------



## progressive hunter (Oct 22, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Yes, and if someone were to try to attack us, they would have to try either the east or west coast, or both.
> The north and south borders would not be possible to attack from.


well we just had 2 million invaders come across the southern border in the last year and thanks to canadas trade agreement china now has troops in canada,,

are you ignorant or just an idiot??


----------



## Mark Richard (Oct 22, 2021)

Rambunctious said:


> Today the USA is neither capitalist or Democratic.....


The Link card or the section 8 housing or the social security is not a capitalist society. Almost half of my paycheck is gone every week and that's not because of capitalism, it's going into other people's pockets.


----------



## Mark Richard (Oct 22, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> well we just had 2 million invaders come across the southern border in the last year and thanks to canadas trade agreement china now has troops in canada,,
> 
> are you ignorant or just an idiot??


Why do they have China in canada?


----------



## progressive hunter (Oct 22, 2021)

Mark Richard said:


> Why do they have China in canada?


here let me google that for you,,









						China Amassing “Tens-of-Thousands” of Troops in Canada
					

Article by Hal Turner                                     October 9, 2020                             (theblo




					exonews.org


----------



## dblack (Oct 22, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> here let me google that for you,,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LOL - that's hilarious. Did you read some of the other articles? This site is right up there with time cube.


----------



## progressive hunter (Oct 22, 2021)

dblack said:


> LOL - that's hilarious. Did you read some of the other articles on the site? This place is right up there with time cube.


do you have anything that proves it wrong or are you going to stick with alinsky tactics??


----------



## dblack (Oct 22, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> do you have anything that proves it wrong or are you going to stick with alinsky tactics??


Ah.. I thought you were joking. Is that actually the kind of website you get your "news" from?


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 22, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> well we just had 2 million invaders come across the southern border in the last year and thanks to canadas trade agreement china now has troops in canada,,
> 
> are you ignorant or just an idiot??



Wrong.
Those immigrants what to work and earn a living we would benefit from.
It is not an invasion, and they are natives.
We are the foreign occupiers.


----------



## progressive hunter (Oct 22, 2021)

dblack said:


> LOL - that's hilarious. Did you read some of the other articles? This site is right up there with time cube.











						Harper, not Trudeau, invited China’s People's Liberation Army troops to Canada - ROHANA REZEL
					

The hashtag #TrudeauTreason is trending. Why? Because Conservatives are accusing Prime Minister Justin Trudeau of inviting China’s People’s Liberation Army troops to train in Canada. But it wasn’t Trudeau’s Liberal government that invited Chinese forces to Canada. It was former Prime Minister...




					rezel.ca
				












						Chinese Troops In Canada - American Partisan
					

Stormbreaker 1776 sends the following Intel: Dated March, 2018 Chinese […]




					www.americanpartisan.org
				













						Legislation Allows Chinese Troops in Canada, Death Squads, Preserving Your Rights w/ Kevin Annett - Business Game Changers
					

Canadian Legislation Allows Chinese Troops in Canada: Business Game Changers w/ Sarah Westall - Big Issues, Innovation, Disruption



					sarahwestall.com


----------



## progressive hunter (Oct 22, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Wrong.
> Those immigrants what to work and earn a living we would benefit from.
> It is not an invasion, and they are natives.
> We are the foreign occupiers.


so youre just an idiot,,


----------



## progressive hunter (Oct 22, 2021)

dblack said:


> Ah.. I thought you were joking. Is that actually the kind of website you get your "news" from?


if you took time to read you would see the link to the agreement that allows for them to be there,,

but I guess reading isnt one of your strong points,,


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 22, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> here let me google that for you,,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That is not associated press.
I see about 30 in uniform, and no guns.
That could easily be embassy/consulate security staff.


----------



## progressive hunter (Oct 22, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> That is not associated press.
> I see about 30 in uniform, and no guns.
> That could easily be embassy/consulate security staff.


so your attention span is limited to a picture,,
got it,,


----------



## dblack (Oct 22, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> Harper, not Trudeau, invited China’s People's Liberation Army troops to Canada - ROHANA REZEL
> 
> 
> The hashtag #TrudeauTreason is trending. Why? Because Conservatives are accusing Prime Minister Justin Trudeau of inviting China’s People’s Liberation Army troops to train in Canada. But it wasn’t Trudeau’s Liberal government that invited Chinese forces to Canada. It was former Prime Minister...
> ...


Any non-parody sites reporting this?


----------



## progressive hunter (Oct 22, 2021)

dblack said:


> Any non-parody sites reporting this?


of course you could go to the canadian gov website and read the trade agreement yourself,,,

but I am sure you wont waste the time,,


----------



## dblack (Oct 22, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> of course you could go to the canadian gov website and read the trade agreement yourself,,,
> 
> but I am sure you wont waste the time,,


This is far more interesting: Was Mars Moon Phobos Just Liberated from Hostile Extraterrestrial Control?


----------



## dblack (Oct 22, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> Harper, not Trudeau, invited China’s People's Liberation Army troops to Canada - ROHANA REZEL
> 
> 
> The hashtag #TrudeauTreason is trending. Why? Because Conservatives are accusing Prime Minister Justin Trudeau of inviting China’s People’s Liberation Army troops to train in Canada. But it wasn’t Trudeau’s Liberal government that invited Chinese forces to Canada. It was former Prime Minister...
> ...


On the other hand, these sites are an interesting window into your worldview.


----------



## progressive hunter (Oct 22, 2021)

dblack said:


> At least these sites are in interesting window into your worldview.


sadly youre to far gone and I cant help you,,


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 22, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> No, fascism is an alliance of the wealthy elite, the businessmen, military, aristocracy, and religion, to control the rest.
> When the majority instead creates regulations to prevent the wealthy elite from dictating, that is the opposite of fascism.


Your definition is wrong, as usual.


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 22, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> How much did you voluntarily pay for that beer?


Whatever amount he paid, moron.


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 22, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Sure it is.
> A monopoly, extortion, blackmail, etc. is not voluntary, but is still trade.
> It is not what you want or deserve, but you take the best deal you can get.


No it isn't.  Those are forms of theft, not trade.


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 22, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> That is why I said if and when.


"If" and "when" implies that sometimes it is.


----------



## g5000 (Oct 22, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> here let me google that for you,,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


From your link:

_Over the summer, the U.S. west coast has seen ferocious wildfires that have burned millions acres and destroyed tens-of-thousands of American homes, (fires that seemed to stop at the Canadian border). Were these fires orchestrated to chase the population away from the U.S. West Coast?

 _


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 23, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> ow does that prove government didn't cause the financial panic?


*Government's embrace of neoliberalism in the 1980s laid the groundwork for finance capitalism's looting of the US economy which is not to excuse the central role of FOR-PROFIT mortgage fraud, predatory lending, and foreclosure fraud in perpetrating that crime.*

Neoliberalism – the ideology at the root of all our problems

"Attempts to limit competition are treated as inimical to liberty. 

"Tax and regulation should be minimised, public services should be privatised. 

"*The organisation of labour and collective bargaining by trade unions are portrayed as market distortions that impede the formation of a natural hierarchy of winners and losers. *

"Inequality is recast as virtuous: a reward for utility and a generator of wealth, which trickles down to enrich everyone. 

"Efforts to create a more equal society are both counterproductive and morally corrosive. 

*"The market ensures that everyone gets what they deserve."*


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 23, 2021)

struth said:


> he socialist who destroyed what was working.


Working for whom?


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 23, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Where did capitalism kill 5 million from lack of drinking water?


"The World Health Organization estimates that 3.575 million people die from lack of clean water, and that 1.5 million people die from vaccinable diseases every year. Mercy Corps estimates that nine million people die from hunger every year. By summing these deaths, it can be concluded that capitalism kills approximately 14 million people per year"

Tallying Capitalism’s Death Toll


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 23, 2021)

Thunderbird said:


> Stop kissing Stalin’s ass. Because of Stalin’s gross incompetence millions of Soviet citizens died: Joseph Stalin's Paranoid Purge - Warfare History Network


*Stalin's many defects doesn't change the historical reality:*

Which Country Was Instrumental in Winning World War II?

"An estimated 25 million to 31 million Russians were killed in the conflict — 16 million of them civilians, and more than 8 million from the Red Army. Russians also point to the fact that Soviet forces killed more German soldiers than their Western counterparts, accounting for 76 percent of Germany’s military dead."


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 23, 2021)

Thunderbird said:


> We can thank the US and UK for providing the Soviets with war materiel: 'We Would Have Lost': Did U.S. Lend-Lease Aid Tip The Balance In Soviet Fight Against Nazi Germany?


There's little doubt US aid to the Soviets was crucial to defeating the Nazis, but there's no doubt which country paid the biggest price in that war; for example, if Hitler's Operation Barbarrosa had targeted the US




https://bigthink.com/the-present/barbarossa-usa/


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 23, 2021)

Thunderbird said:


> re poor African countries devoted to capitalism?
> 
> Capitalism can help the poor







New Report Shows Corporations and Western Governments Continue to Profit from Looting of Africa - Toward Freedom


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 23, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Government's embrace of neoliberalism in the 1980s laid the groundwork for finance capitalism's looting of the US economy which is not to excuse the central role of FOR-PROFIT mortgage fraud, predatory lending, and foreclosure fraud in perpetrating that crime.*
> 
> Neoliberalism – the ideology at the root of all our problems
> 
> ...


Government cause the mortgage crisis by forcing banks to give loans to people that didn't have good credit.  

Of course, you always blame capitalism for every problem in the world.  Government is the cause of virtually every social and economic problem in the world that is humanly solvable.


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 23, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> There's little doubt US aid to the Soviets was crucial to defeating the Nazis, but there's no doubt which country paid the biggest price in that war; for example, if Hitler's Operation Barbarrosa had targeted the US
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why does the USSR deserve any praise for being the victim?  In fact, it was one of the perps in the war.  Stalin helped Hitler carve up Poland.  It brought the wolf to its door.


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 23, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> New Report Shows Corporations and Western Governments Continue to Profit from Looting of Africa - Toward Freedom


_*"published by a coalition of African and British social justice organizations"*_

It's communist propaganda, in other words.


----------



## iamwhatiseem (Oct 23, 2021)

"unequally distributed property"
Now there is a mouthful.
  The meaning behind those three words is simple - Marxism, socialism... communism... take your pick.
Of course in those three, property is CERTAINLY not equally distributed either.

*Capitalism*... property is distributed by participation, and  dependent on who does and who does not accept the risks of opportunity.
*Marxism/Socialism*.... property is distributed, filtered more accurately, through elitist representatives who keep a large percentage of property for themselves, and whatever is left over given to the people.

Which would you rather live in?


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 23, 2021)

iamwhatiseem said:


> "unequally distributed property"
> Now there is a mouthful.
> The meaning behind those three words is simple - Marxism, socialism... communism... take your pick.
> Of course in those three, property is CERTAINLY not equally distributed either.
> ...


Under capitalism property is not distributed.  It's earned.


----------



## iamwhatiseem (Oct 23, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Under capitalism property is not distributed.  It's earned.


Of course, but the word "Earn" is alien to liberals.
It is not recognized.


----------



## struth (Oct 23, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Working for whom?


hahah the people 

nice propaganda…but the people weren’t eating their pets and zoo animals when it was run more capitalist


----------



## danielpalos (Oct 23, 2021)

Social morals for free can establish a Commune of Heaven on Earth; only capitalist advertising may suggest purchasing a Stairway to Heaven.


----------



## dblack (Oct 23, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Stalin's many defects doesn't change the historical reality:*
> 
> Which Country Was Instrumental in Winning World War II?
> 
> "An estimated 25 million to 31 million Russians were killed in the conflict — 16 million of them civilians, and more than 8 million from the Red Army. Russians also point to the fact that Soviet forces killed more German soldiers than their Western counterparts, accounting for 76 percent of Germany’s military dead."


You're clearly on the wrong site. Here ya go:   http://www.ussrmessageboard.com


----------



## progressive hunter (Oct 23, 2021)

g5000 said:


> From your link:
> 
> _Over the summer, the U.S. west coast has seen ferocious wildfires that have burned millions acres and destroyed tens-of-thousands of American homes, (fires that seemed to stop at the Canadian border). Were these fires orchestrated to chase the population away from the U.S. West Coast?
> 
> _


OK,,thanks??


----------



## dblack (Oct 23, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> OK,,thanks??


Doesn't it bother you that the websites you rely on for your "facts" have headlines like:









						Was Mars Moon Phobos Just Liberated from Hostile Extraterrestrial Control?
					

According to Elena Danaan, a former professional French archeologist, the latest real-time intelligence data




					exonews.org
				




???

Don't you realize that quoting sites like that just makes you look like nut, and is in no way persuasive to those who doubt what you're saying? It's kind of the opposite really.


----------



## progressive hunter (Oct 23, 2021)

dblack said:


> Doesn't it bother you that the websites you rely on for your "facts" have headlines like:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


not when I can go through read the details and confirm it through other sources,,,


----------



## dblack (Oct 23, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> not when I can go through read the details and confirm it through other sources,,,


Maybe just post those other sources then. Leading with the "full retard" stuff makes you look like a crank, easy to dismiss.


----------



## progressive hunter (Oct 23, 2021)

dblack said:


> Maybe just post those other sources then. Leading with the "full retard" stuff makes you look like a crank, easy to dismiss.


my original sources are in long drawn out podcastss that get mocked and not listened to,,
links are in the stories I posted,,
not my fault youre just lazy,,

do you have something that shows chinese troops being allowed in canada are not in the trade agreement they signed??


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 23, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "The market ensures that everyone gets what they deserve."



It did for you.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 23, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "The World Health Organization estimates that 3.575 million people die from lack of clean water, and that 1.5 million people die from vaccinable diseases every year. Mercy Corps estimates that nine million people die from hunger every year. By summing these deaths, it can be concluded that capitalism kills approximately 14 million people per year"
> 
> Tallying Capitalism’s Death Toll



I saw that the first time, now where did capitalism kill 5 million from lack of drinking water?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 23, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> There's little doubt US aid to the Soviets was crucial to defeating the Nazis, but there's no doubt which country paid the biggest price in that war; for example, if Hitler's Operation Barbarrosa had targeted the US
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Don't you hate it when your hero, Stalin, teams up with Hitler?
I'll bet Stalin felt like a real asshole when Hitler invaded, eh comrade?


----------



## dblack (Oct 23, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> my original sources are in long drawn out podcastss that get mocked and not listened to,,
> links are in the stories I posted,,
> not my fault youre just lazy,,
> 
> do you have something that shows chinese troops being allowed in canada are not in the trade agreement they signed??


I don't think you're following. I can't - won't - take the claims of those websites seriously. Won't even waste my time wondering whether it's true or not. Credibility matters.


----------



## progressive hunter (Oct 23, 2021)

dblack said:


> I don't think you're following. I can't - won't - take the claims of those websites seriously. Won't even waste my time wondering whether it's true or not. Credibility matters.


then why are you wasting my time when you choose willful ignorance??


----------



## dblack (Oct 23, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> then why are you wasting my time when you choose willful ignorance??


I'm not. I'm pointing out that your posts are doing the opposite of what you think. They only discredit the ideas you are supposedly promoting.


----------



## progressive hunter (Oct 23, 2021)

dblack said:


> I'm not. I'm pointing out that your posts are doing the opposite of what you think. They only discredit the ideas you are supposedly promoting.


so youre saying canada doesnt have a trade agreement that allows chines troops in canada??


----------



## dblack (Oct 23, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> so youre saying canada doesnt have a trade agreement that allows chines troops in canada??


*sigh* - I'm trying to tell you that you're doing more harm than good. If you really care about conservative values, limited government, individual liberty etc - you'll just shut the fuck up. The retard circus is not helpful.


----------



## progressive hunter (Oct 23, 2021)

dblack said:


> *sigh* - I'm trying to tell you that you're doing more harm than good. If you really care about conservative values, limited government, individual liberty etc - you'll just shut the fuck up. The retard circus is not helpful.


WOW,, your sure spun your way out of that one,,


----------



## dblack (Oct 23, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> WOW,, your sure spun your way out of that one,,


Fine. Post another compelling article from  http://www.imafuckingmoronwhowillbelieveanything.com


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 23, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "The World Health Organization estimates that 3.575 million people die from lack of clean water, and that 1.5 million people die from vaccinable diseases every year. Mercy Corps estimates that nine million people die from hunger every year. By summing these deaths, it can be concluded that capitalism kills approximately 14 million people per year"
> 
> Tallying Capitalism’s Death Toll


How did you anyone conclude that capitalism was responsible?  These people died mostly in Africa, where they don't have capitalism.  They mostly have the kind of governments that you endorse.


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 23, 2021)

struth said:


> Owners can't also make wages so low that nobody will work for them, or they'll have no employees helping make the products or service.
> 
> But, it's certainly true, and they want to maximize their profits. I am not sure how that's some sort of new concept.


*There is nothing new about capitalism's worship of profits, but it is that obsession that requires owners to cut costs by outsourcing production to lower labor costs. This hollows out the domestic economy opening the door for the parasites in the FIRE secto*r
America’s Path To A FIRE Economy:





"Step 1 – The power of labor is broken down and wages fall. This is referred to as 'wage repression' or 'wage deflation' and is accomplished by outsourcing and offshoring production.[1]
Step 2 – Corporate profits—*especially in the financial sector—increase, roughly in proportion to the degree to which wages fall in some sectors of the economy"*
*Internal contradictions of capital accumulation - Wikipedia*


----------



## Natural Citizen (Oct 23, 2021)

Rambunctious said:


> Today the USA is neither capitalist or Democratic.....



Correct.

There's a problem with definitions and understanding of what kinds of policies we actually have in America today and the OP is a prime example of that malfunction. 

Consequently, there can be no meaningful dialogue with regard to the failures so long as the definitions and understanding of what kinds of policies we actually have are ignored.

Placing that aside, Keynesianism, which is precisely the kind of policy we have, is socialist. And eventually leads to fascism.  And so long as people are discusing irrelevancies such as the comparisons provided in the op, the Keynesians are laughing all the way to the central bank. And the Marxists love them for it as they're just waiting in the background to 'save ' us from what they'are ignorantly (or conveniently in some cases) calling 'capitalism'

Keynesianism will always fail. It's designed to fail. We're witnessing it now.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 23, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *There is nothing new about capitalism's worship of profits, but it is that obsession that requires owners to cut costs by outsourcing production to lower labor costs. This hollows out the domestic economy opening the door for the parasites in the FIRE secto*r
> America’s Path To A FIRE Economy:
> 
> 
> ...



_Corporate profits—*especially in the financial sector—increase, roughly in proportion to the degree to which wages fall in some sectors of the economy"*_

What about wages in the financial sector?


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 23, 2021)

struth said:


> Socialism is the Govt owning the means of production.


*That was the only acceptable definition of socialism in the US during the Cold War; it is simply another lie the rich tell:*

Socialism - Wikipedia

*"Socialism* is a political, social, and economic philosophy encompassing a range of economic and social systems characterised by *social ownership**[1][2][3] of the **means of production*[4][5][6][7] and democratic control, such as workers' self-management of enterprises.[8][9] 

"It includes the political theories and movements associated with such systems.[10] 

"Social ownership can be public, collective, cooperative, or of equity.[11] 

"While no single definition encapsulates the many types of socialism,[12] *social ownership is the one common element.*"


----------



## struth (Oct 23, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *That was the only acceptable definition of socialism in the US during the Cold War; it is simply another lie the rich tell:*
> 
> Socialism - Wikipedia
> 
> ...


as i stated capitalism allows for, and we have in this country collective ownership…most businesses in fact are owned by numerous people…all the ones on the stock exchange are for example


----------



## struth (Oct 23, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *There is nothing new about capitalism's worship of profits, but it is that obsession that requires owners to cut costs by outsourcing production to lower labor costs. This hollows out the domestic economy opening the door for the parasites in the FIRE secto*r
> America’s Path To A FIRE Economy:
> 
> 
> ...


that’s not a new concept 

worship it? sure.  A business doesn’t survive without profits 

even collectives “worship” profits, they go under without it 

Govts worship profits as well…without it they go under…look at all the Socialist countries that have failed for lack of it


----------



## dblack (Oct 23, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> _Corporate profits—*especially in the financial sector—increase, roughly in proportion to the degree to which wages fall in some sectors of the economy"*_
> 
> What about wages in the financial sector?


Damned employees won't work unless you pay them! Greedy bastards obsessed with profit. Always trying to get raises and bonuses. Why can't they be like george and work for minimum wage?


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 23, 2021)

dblack said:


> Capitalism isn't democratic (in the one vote, one person sense). But that doesn't mean the two aren't compatible. It just means that capitalism denies government control of the economy.


Depending on which version of government and capitalism you are referring to,  shifting decision making power from corporate managers and corporate shareholders (not to mention vulture capitalists on Wall Street) to workers, customers, suppliers, neighbors and the broader public would provide society a democratic voice in economic policy decisions.

Economic democracy - Wikipedia


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 23, 2021)

dblack said:


> It's like asking if the First Amendment is compatible with democracy. The First Amendment isn't, itself, democratic. It's part of the Constitution and not subject to change by majority rule. But that doesn't meant it isn't _compatible_ with democracy generally. It just means government can't be used to control speech or religion.


It is hard to imagine any form of government other than a democracy being compatible with free speech; however, capitalism works well in any dictatorship.


----------



## progressive hunter (Oct 23, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> It is hard to imagine any form of government other than a democracy being compatible with free speech; however, capitalism works well in any dictatorship.


you cant be that stupid,, oh wait you can,,

democracies hate free speech and why we are a constitutional republic,,


----------



## struth (Oct 23, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Depending on which version of government and capitalism you are referring to,  shifting decision making power from corporate managers and corporate shareholders (not to mention vulture capitalists on Wall Street) to workers, customers, suppliers, neighbors and the broader public would provide society a democratic voice in economic policy decisions.
> 
> Economic democracy - Wikipedia


the public makes the decisions…they are the customers.  They are the ones rhe determine what they want to buy


----------



## dblack (Oct 23, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Depending on which version of government and capitalism you are referring to,  shifting decision making power from corporate managers and corporate shareholders (not to mention vulture capitalists on Wall Street) to workers, customers, suppliers, neighbors and the broader public would provide society a democratic voice in economic policy decisions.


Sure man. That's the intent, the goal. But government is the means, and usually the endgame.

And it's a stupid goal to begin with. Society has far more control over the economy via the market, than they would with ubiquitous democracy, where only the interests of the majority prevail.


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 23, 2021)

dblack said:


> Most of the people speaking out against socialism are referring to state socialism. The non-governmental solutions aren't the issue. If you want to create an "employee owned" company or start your own commune, have it it. As long as it's voluntary, as long as you're not using force to compel others to play along, I have no problem with it.








I see the increasing concentration of corporate power in the US as a prime threat to political democracy. Imho, every edition of capitalism yet inflicted on this world has its share of disadvantages, but the current version of neoliberal finance capitalism trumps all others when it comes to enabling the best government money can buy.

Economic democracy - Wikipedia

*"While a hundred new billionaires were created since 2001, real weekly earnings for 100 million workers are less in 2007 than in 1980 when Ronald Reagan took office."*


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 23, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Depending on which version of government and capitalism you are referring to,  shifting decision making power from corporate managers and corporate shareholders (not to mention vulture capitalists on Wall Street) to workers, customers, suppliers, neighbors and the broader public would provide society a democratic voice in economic policy decisions.
> 
> Economic democracy - Wikipedia


Nothing is stopping workers from forming their own collective enterprises, moron.  If that form of management is so superior, then why aren't worker collectives taking over the economy?


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 23, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> I see the increasing concentration of corporate power in the US as a prime threat to political democracy. Imho, every edition of capitalism yet inflicted on this world has its share of disadvantages, but the current version of neoliberal finance capitalism trumps all others when it comes to enabling the best government money can buy.
> 
> Economic democracy - Wikipedia
> 
> *"While a hundred new billionaires were created since 2001, real weekly earnings for 100 million workers are less in 2007 than in 1980 when Ronald Reagan took office."*


by invoking Chomsky you've shown the truth depth of your idiocy.


----------



## elektra (Oct 23, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> I see the increasing concentration of corporate power in the US as a prime threat to political democracy. Imho, every edition of capitalism yet inflicted on this world has its share of disadvantages, but the current version of neoliberal finance capitalism trumps all others when it comes to enabling the best government money can buy.


says the man that got rich off of capitalism in our Republic, in our great country of liberty
chomsky is an asshole


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 24, 2021)

dblack said:


> We don't need "legal tender". There are other means of currency and trade. And the sooner we remove currency from government control, the better.


*Do you see crypto as an improvement?*




"Perhaps it’s no surprise that China is likely to become the first major economy with a digital legal tender."

Should cryptocurrency be legal tender? 44% of financial institutions say yes - Ledger Insights - enterprise blockchain


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 24, 2021)

dblack said:


> reedom is slavery?


----------



## dblack (Oct 24, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Do you see crypto as an improvement?


Currency that isn't controlled by government is the goal. To the extent that crypto is able to accomplish that, it's definitely an improvement.


georgephillip said:


> "Perhaps it’s no surprise that China is likely to become the first major economy with a digital legal tender"


China just banned crypto, because they can't control it.


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 24, 2021)

georgephillip said:


>


Wrong, asshole.  Changing the definition of slavery will not make your idiocies sound any more plausible.


----------



## dblack (Oct 24, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> [store-bought propaganda]



I don't speak meme.


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 24, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Biden is just a plain crook who takes bribes.


Absolutely.
Who provides the bribes to corporate tools like Biden?




Why would anyone vote for Biden or Trump?

President Trump’s legacy of corruption, four years and 3,700 conflicts of interest later - CREW | Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 24, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Absolutely.
> Who provides the bribes to corporate tools like Biden?
> 
> 
> ...


The main reason I voted for Trump is that he's not Biden.  The investigations into Trump are all politically motivated.  They prove nothing except that Dims are unscrupulous scum.


----------



## struth (Oct 24, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Absolutely.
> Who provides the bribes to corporate tools like Biden?
> 
> 
> ...


the issue is the corrupt politician like xiden taking the money.  i can’t  get all that worked up over a person knowing they can get what they want because the dembots were dumb enough to put a corrupt person, with a near half century of public corruption in office 

trump at least was honest in 2016 and admitted he donated to the dems, like the clintons and chucky…because he got what he wanted from those corrupt leftist


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 24, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Government is responsible for those. The idea the capitalism invented slavery or war is absurd. Slavery is as old as civilization. Those are the failures of government and civilization. Only a sleazy douchebag would try to pin them on capitalism which didn't even exist until 200 years ago.


"The bodies of the enslaved served as America’s largest financial asset, and they were forced to maintain America’s most exported commodity. In 60 years, from 1801 to 1862, the amount of cotton picked daily by an enslaved person increased 400 percent. 

"The profits from cotton propelled the US into a position as one of the leading economies in the world, and made the South its most prosperous region. 

"The ownership of enslaved people increased wealth for Southern planters so much that by the dawn of the Civil War, the Mississippi River Valley had more millionaires per capita than any other region."

How slavery became America’s first big business


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 24, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "The bodies of the enslaved served as America’s largest financial asset, and they were forced to maintain America’s most exported commodity. In 60 years, from 1801 to 1862, the amount of cotton picked daily by an enslaved person increased 400 percent.
> 
> "The profits from cotton propelled the US into a position as one of the leading economies in the world, and made the South its most prosperous region.
> 
> ...


How does that prove that capitalism created slavery?  Here's a clue for you, moron: it didn't.


----------



## Sinajuavi (Oct 24, 2021)

Rambunctious said:


> Today the USA is neither capitalist or Democratic.....


It is corporatist, and that was enabled by Reagan's demented policies.

I'm using Ron Paul's word, "corporatist", though I'm a progressive Democrat. But Paul was right about that.


----------



## Sinajuavi (Oct 24, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "The bodies of the enslaved served as America’s largest financial asset, and they were forced to maintain America’s most exported commodity. In 60 years, from 1801 to 1862, the amount of cotton picked daily by an enslaved person increased 400 percent.
> 
> "The profits from cotton propelled the US into a position as one of the leading economies in the world, and made the South its most prosperous region.
> 
> ...


In Virginia it was tobacco.

Few today realize that the ports of Rhode Island were hubs for slave ships. Ships from RI transported a lot of the slaves who reached the Caribbean. In the 13 colonies, only Charleston SC was a bigger slave port.


----------



## Sinajuavi (Oct 24, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> How does that prove that capitalism created slavery?  Here's a clue for you, moron: it didn't.


Capitalism did not "create" slavery as a thing, long ago in ancient times...

But capitalism definitely was the motive force behind USA's slavery. Without any govt regulation, that is what capitalism is---a slave system.


----------



## Sinajuavi (Oct 24, 2021)

Nostra said:


> The US isn't a Democracy, Dumbass.


If you Trumpoid traitors have your way, we'll be living under a dictatorship.


----------



## Sinajuavi (Oct 24, 2021)

wamose said:


> Yeah, Venezuela and Cuba are much better off with their collective bullshit. Russia and NoKo too. The waiting line for Americans waiting to go to those four countries must stretch for miles.


The superior countries are those with demosocialism implemented. That means Germany, France, Sweden, Netherlands, Japan, Israel, Australia, NZ, Canada, Spain, Denmark, etc.

The USA is a 2nd-world craphole thanks to Reaganomics.


----------



## Sinajuavi (Oct 24, 2021)

wamose said:


> Capitalism is what allowed our country to develop into the greatest country in the world. Central planning would have sentenced us to a perpetual state of poverty, shortages, distrust, no freedom and a total dependence on government followed by economic collapse and chaos. You people who would rather be a part of the "collective" should pick one of those great Marxist destinations and go there. It'll be good for your head.


The same capitalist-propaganda lies.

The advanced countries with the best living standards today are demosocialist, not laissez-faire capitalist/feudal like the USA, not "Communist" like Venezuela or NK. Nope, the best countries are Germany, France, New Zealand, Canada, Spain, UK, etc.

Demosocialism works. Reaganomics has trashed the USA into the 2nd world and we will continue to decline until we get some real Democratic policies implemented to replace all this quasi-fascist QOP crap.


----------



## Sinajuavi (Oct 24, 2021)

DigitalDrifter said:


> Capitalism is what made America the greatest most powerful nation of all time. PERIOD!!


And so... given the history of the USA, you must include in the definition of "capitalist" extensive slavery and genocide of indigenous people. Yeah, that all made us quite rich.

I could be rich by robbing a bank, or I could work hard. See the difference? Apparently not.


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 24, 2021)

Sinajuavi said:


> Capitalism did not "create" slavery as a thing, long ago in ancient times...
> 
> But capitalism definitely was the motive force behind USA's slavery. Without any govt regulation, that is what capitalism is---a slave system.



The desire to make money is not the same thing as capitalism.   Are you actually implying that capitalism is nothing more than the desire to make money?

By the way, shit for brains, slavery laws are regulations.  Slavery and capitalism are mutually exclusive.


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 24, 2021)

Sinajuavi said:


> And so... given the history of the USA, you must include in the definition of "capitalist" extensive slavery and genocide of indigenous people. Yeah, that all made us quite rich.
> 
> I could be rich by robbing a bank, or I could work hard. See the difference? Apparently not.


Only morons like you believe that.


----------



## rupol2000 (Oct 24, 2021)

Reagan is a political genius, a great president under whom America really was great


----------



## rupol2000 (Oct 24, 2021)

All your economic fictions are childish. You have no idea how finance works, and the bubbles just began to inflate later, starting with the dot-com bubble.
The dollar is the world's reserve currency, its inflation does not depend on the US economy


----------



## rupol2000 (Oct 24, 2021)

Roughly speaking, without going into details, the dollar depreciates when the United States is in the shit  and ceases to be a global autority ority, as is now happening when the left has seized power and purposefully destroys the United States.


----------



## Unkotare (Oct 24, 2021)

Sinajuavi said:


> ....
> 
> The USA is a 2nd-world....


Where do you live, loser?


----------



## Rambunctious (Oct 24, 2021)

Sinajuavi said:


> It is corporatist, and that was enabled by Reagan's demented policies.
> 
> I'm using Ron Paul's word, "corporatist", though I'm a progressive Democrat. But Paul was right about that.


Reagan died a long time ago.....bring your thinking into current times....


----------



## struth (Oct 24, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "The bodies of the enslaved served as America’s largest financial asset, and they were forced to maintain America’s most exported commodity. In 60 years, from 1801 to 1862, the amount of cotton picked daily by an enslaved person increased 400 percent.
> 
> "The profits from cotton propelled the US into a position as one of the leading economies in the world, and made the South its most prosperous region.
> 
> ...


slavery existed long before the united states existed.  Long before Adam Smith wrote Wealth of Nations…

leftist theory, such as socialism, promotes slavery.  The fact that an individual has no ability to own anything, the product of their labor…is slavery 

Capitalism promotes private, individual, ownership…the ability to make choice, that’s the opposite of slavery


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 24, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Do you see crypto as an improvement?*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*
"Perhaps it’s no surprise that China is likely to become the first major economy with a digital legal tender."*

_
According to a Q&A on its website, the PBOC said that all crypto-related activities are illegal in China, including services like offering trading of digital assets, order matching, token issuance and derivatives. In addition, overseas crypto exchanges providing services in mainland China are also illegal, the PBOC said._









						China is cracking down on crypto again — here's what that actually means, and how it affects U.S. crypto investors
					

It's not the first time China has cracked down on bitcoin and cryptocurrency. Here's what experts say it means for people buying bitcoin in the U.S.




					www.cnbc.com
				




LOL!


----------



## danielpalos (Oct 24, 2021)

_If liberty and equality are chiefly to be found in democracy, they will be best attained when all persons alike share in government to the utmost._--Aristotle


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 24, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> How does that justify paying billions from a legal settlement to leftwing agitators?


Only a brain-dead, corrupt crony capitalist would ask such a stupid question.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 24, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Only a brain-dead, corrupt crony capitalist would ask such a stupid question.



Where did capitalism kill 5 million from lack of drinking water?


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 24, 2021)

elektra said:


> Yes, in a world of tyrants and dictators and the corrupt, capitalism being the only force for good, is easily accused of being the culprit. Certainly in your eyes, the eyes of those who relish tyranny, capitalism is what the bad must fight against.


"Capitalism as we know it has two egregious flaws: it relentlessly widens inequality and destroys nature.  

"Its ‘invisible hand,’ which is supposed to transform individual self-seeking into widely shared well-being, too often doesn’t, and governments can’t keep up with the consequences.  

"For billions of people around the world, the challenge of our era is to repair or replace capitalism before its cumulative harms become irreparable."

Capitalism's Core Problem: The Case for Universal Property


----------



## elektra (Oct 24, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "Capitalism as we know it has two egregious flaws: it relentlessly widens inequality and destroys nature.


uh, no. 

without capitalism you are still working for the king, on the king's land. Equality means nothing in the King's kingdom. 

Destroys nature? Now you are simply talking out your ass.


----------



## elektra (Oct 24, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "Its ‘invisible hand,’ which is supposed to transform individual self-seeking into widely shared well-being, too often doesn’t, and governments can’t keep up with the consequences.


Government is what destroys capitalism, and what man creates for himself. My work is my property, my labor is not the property of government, which is what you advocate. 

Consequences, how about getting off you high horse and quit looking down your nose at the people you are no better than. You can be a man and state what you believe the consequences to be, instead of talking like you sit at the right hand of the king.


----------



## Dr Grump (Oct 24, 2021)

Name one


Toddsterpatriot said:


> Capitalism is NOT Democratic: Democracy is NOT Capitalist​
> And Communism is not succesful.


 Name one person on this board who thinks it is.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 24, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "Capitalism as we know it has two egregious flaws: it relentlessly widens inequality and destroys nature.
> 
> "Its ‘invisible hand,’ which is supposed to transform individual self-seeking into widely shared well-being, too often doesn’t, and governments can’t keep up with the consequences.
> 
> ...



* it relentlessly widens inequality *

If you have no skills, why should you enjoy equality?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 24, 2021)

Dr Grump said:


> Name one
> 
> Name one person on this board who thinks it is.



georgephillip


----------



## elektra (Oct 24, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "For billions of people around the world, the challenge of our era is to repair or replace capitalism before its cumulative harms become irreparable."


you could not lay down more bullshit based on complete ignorance if you tried. The problem for the poor in the favelas of niteroi is fixing the damage of capitalism? Hell, they aint seen nothing but a repressive government supplemented by murderous drug gangs. 

Your shit totally stinks, where do you come up with this garbage. Seriously, you certainly don't think it up yourself so how about a link, just so I can shit on everything you believe in. And I tell you, when you get a good smell of that shit, it will have more truth and benefit in it, than anything you could possibly think of yourself.


----------



## danielpalos (Oct 24, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> * it relentlessly widens inequality *
> 
> If you have no skills, why should you enjoy equality?


Because we merely use capitalism for "metrics" under our form of socialism and Government.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 24, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> Because we merely use capitalism for "metrics" under our form of socialism and Government.



You should definitely stop using it for metrics.

If you have no skills, why should you enjoy equality?


----------



## danielpalos (Oct 24, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> You should definitely stop using it for metrics.
> 
> If you have no skills, why should you enjoy equality?


The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 24, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.



And yet, still not equal.


----------



## dblack (Oct 24, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> The main reason I voted for Trump is that he's not Biden.


The worst reason to vote for anyone. LO2E is killing us.


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 24, 2021)

dblack said:


> The worst reason to vote for anyone. LO2E is killing us.



That's the reality of democracy.  It forces such choices on us.


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 24, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Only a brain-dead, corrupt crony capitalist would ask such a stupid question.


Nope.  Only a fucking NAZI douchebag would look the other way when a politician extorts money from a corporation to give to his political allies.  Apparently  you endorse such activities.


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 24, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Where did capitalism kill 5 million from lack of drinking water?


He apparently doesn't want to answer that.


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 24, 2021)

Sinajuavi said:


> The same capitalist-propaganda lies.
> 
> The advanced countries with the best living standards today are demosocialist, not laissez-faire capitalist/feudal like the USA, not "Communist" like Venezuela or NK. Nope, the best countries are Germany, France, New Zealand, Canada, Spain, UK, etc.
> 
> Demosocialism works. Reaganomics has trashed the USA into the 2nd world and we will continue to decline until we get some real Democratic policies implemented to replace all this quasi-fascist QOP crap.


Those countries were all almost pure capitalist before WW II, and a lof them have been going back to capitalism as the failure of socialism has become more apparent.  There are no successful countries that never had a capitalist phase.


----------



## dblack (Oct 24, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> That's the reality of democracy.  It forces such choices on us.


It's not. That's what you tell yourself, but it's not true. You're not forced to vote for a bad candidate.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 24, 2021)

dblack said:


> It's not. That's what you tell yourself, but it's not true. You're not forced to vote for a bad candidate.



What can you do when all the candidates are awful.
Like between Hillary and Trump.


----------



## dblack (Oct 24, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> What can you do when all the candidates are awful.
> Like between Hillary and Trump.


Those aren't all the candidates.


----------



## elektra (Oct 24, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> What can you do when all the candidates are awful.
> Like between Hillary and Trump.


awful, you listened to too much fake news


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 24, 2021)

dblack said:


> Those aren't all the candidates.


Due to the 2 party system, 3rd candidates don't have a chance.
We should not have primaries, and just have a single election with ranked voting for all candidates.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 24, 2021)

elektra said:


> awful, you listened to too much fake news



I read all the news, including Der Spiegel, Al Jazeera, the Guardian, etc.


----------



## danielpalos (Oct 24, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> And yet, still not equal.


All laws of a general nature shall have uniform operation.


----------



## themirrorthief (Oct 24, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> And yet, still not equal.


the  usa  is  the  most  socialist  nation  in  the  history  of  the world  usa  spends  more  than  ten times as  much  on social  programs  compared to any other nation in  the entire  world  yet we still  have  a million people living  on  the street  due  to inflation  caused  by  high  taxes  go  to liberasl californuia if  u  want  more  proof   jus  dont  step  in a pile  of  shit


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 24, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> All laws of a general nature shall have uniform operation.



If you say so, Spicoli.......


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 24, 2021)

themirrorthief said:


> the  usa  is  the  most  socialist  nation  in  the  history  of  the world  usa  spends  more  than  ten times as  much  on social  programs  compared to any other nation in  the entire  world  yet we still  have  a million people living  on  the street  due  to inflation  caused  by  high  taxes  go  to liberasl californuia if  u  want  more  proof   jus  dont  step  in a pile  of  shit



I disagree.
The US does not even have public health care or affordable college tuition, so is hardly socialist in my opinion.
Inflation has nothing to do with high taxes, but excess wealth and lots of borrowing.
So in fact, high taxes prevents inflation by siphoning off excess money.
High taxes causes recessions, not inflation.


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 25, 2021)

dblack said:


> Yeah. If you have it in your head that our choices are limited to monarchy, oligarchy or socialism - well, you live in a bleak world.


How many forms of government are there in your world?





Types of Governments - Fact / Myth


----------



## dblack (Oct 25, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How many forms of government are there in your world?


How many irrelevant dodges can you come up with?


----------



## kaz (Oct 25, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> If the richest one percent pay almost half of all income taxes, what does that tell you about changes in the US income distribution over the past forty years?



I just answered that.   We have mob rule.  You're a leftist who is just spewing propaganda in Marxist talking points.

Just FYI, the top 1% earn about 20% of income, blowing your talking points out of the water on that.  Yes, their taxes are extremely high.

I don't care about the rich, but I do care about fairness and I don't suffer from near fatal wealth envy like you do


----------



## kaz (Oct 25, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Who told you the rich pay all the taxes?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The IRS.   The top 20% pay virtually all taxes


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 25, 2021)

kaz said:


> I just answered that.   We have mob rule.  You're a leftist who is just spewing propaganda in Marxist talking points.
> 
> Just FYI, the top 1% earn about 20% of income, blowing your talking points out of the water on that.  Yes, their taxes are extremely high.
> 
> I don't care about the rich, but I do care about fairness and I don't suffer from near fatal wealth envy like you do



I do not agree we have total "mob rule".
That would be if everyone had a vote and the majority won.
But instead we have representative rule, where the mob elects someone who supposedly is better than average, and then they rule.
Not much better than mob rule in some cases,  because the process of selecting representative candidates can be corrupted, but at least it is better than a lynch mob.

I am far left, but still do not think taxes should ever be over 25%.
But I don't think the tax rate is the problem, but that we spend more on the military than anything else, and that is mostly waste since we have not really been attacked since 1812.
We do not need troop deployments overseas, for defense.
We do not need aircraft carriers for defense.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 25, 2021)

kaz said:


> The IRS.   The top 20% pay virtually all taxes



The more money I make, the more I can afford tax dodges, like becoming a slum lord and writing off depreciation, so the less taxes I pay.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 25, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How many forms of government are there in your world?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Forms of government are varying degrees of individual choice that is allowed to effect final decision making.
They can range from anarchism, where government has no coercive power over individuals, to authoritarian dictatorship, where government has total coercive power.
Theocracy, oligarchy, tyranny, etc., just change the number and type of an authoritarian dictator.

Economic systems, like capitalism, socialism, and communism, are not systems of government, but choices as to how government revenue should be spent.
With capitalism, no tax money can be spent on anything that could be done for profit instead; and with the communism as the other extreme, anything that can be done with tax money should be done with tax money, so that it is then be collectively and cooperatively controlled.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 25, 2021)

kaz said:


> The IRS.   The top 20% pay virtually all taxes



What that ignores is that since everyone is paying taxes, even those who are not really making any profit at all after paying for room and board, that the poor are paying much higher rates.
Taxes are only supposed to be on extra profits, AFTER you write off the cost of doing business.
But with most individuals, their rent, food, clothing, transportation is not allowed to be written off.
They are given less than a forth what a reasonable cost of living allowance should be.
{...  For tax year 2017 (the taxes you filed in 2018), the personal exemption was *$4,050* per person. ...}
Who actually pays taxes should be those who are profiting the most from the system and who can afford it the most.
So these poor people who are being ripped off by substandard wages should not be paying the taxes they are being forced to pay.
The first $15k should be tax exempt at least.
That is just the cost of living, and should not be taxed at all.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> The more money I make, the more I can afford tax dodges, like becoming a slum lord and writing off depreciation, so the less taxes I pay.



Depreciation? Outrageous!!!
Next thing, you'll be writing off all sorts of business expenses.


----------



## TeeDub (Oct 25, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Finance capitalism is transforming US democracy into an oligarchy, something neither Trump nor Biden has any problem with.


It must suck to be you, loser.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> What that ignores is that since everyone is paying taxes, even those who are not really making any profit at all after paying for room and board, that the poor are paying much higher rates.
> Taxes are only supposed to be on extra profits, AFTER you write off the cost of doing business.
> But with most individuals, their rent, food, clothing, transportation is not allowed to be written off.
> They are given less than a forth what a reasonable cost of living allowance should be.
> ...


*
What that ignores is that since everyone is paying taxes, even those who are not really making any profit at all after paying for room and board, that the poor are paying much higher rates.*

You misspelled,  "the poor are paying much lower rates"

*Who actually pays taxes should be those who are profiting the most from the system and who can afford it the most.*

Luckily, the rich do pay the most. You're welcome.

*So these poor people who are being ripped off by substandard wages should not be paying the taxes they are being forced to pay.*

How much do they make? How much do they pay? Let's check your math.

*The first $15k should be tax exempt at least.*

For singles, the first $12,400 is exempt. Head of household, the first $18,650 is exempt.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 25, 2021)

TeeDub said:


> It must suck to be you, loser.



It's not his fault he never learned any skills. Or bought any stock. Or saved any money.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 25, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Depreciation? Outrageous!!!
> Next thing, you'll be writing off all sorts of business expenses.



You know as well as I do that real estate "depreciation" is bogus.
Even during a recession, real estate still almost always is more valuable than when you bought it.
And what real estate land lords can do is use an accelerated depreciation schedule, where you get most of the depreciation in the first 5 years, and then trade properties with another slumlord every 5 years.
Even when real estate is appreciating, you get to fully depreciate real estate over 25 years.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 25, 2021)

TeeDub said:


> It must suck to be you, loser.



Wrong.
It harms everyone when the wealthy corporations take over the media and unduly influence elections with false information.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> You know as well as I do that real estate "depreciation" is bogus.
> Even during a recession, real estate still almost always is more valuable than when you bought it.
> And what real estate land lords can do is use an accelerated depreciation schedule, where you get most of the depreciation in the first 5 years, and then trade properties with another slumlord every 5 years.
> Even when real estate is appreciating, you get to fully depreciate real estate over 25 years.



*You know as well as I do that real estate "depreciation" is bogus.*

Why do you feel that?

*Even during a recession, real estate still almost always is more valuable than when you bought it.*

You need to explain that to everyone who lost money on their real estate in 2007-2009.

*And what real estate land lords can do is use an accelerated depreciation schedule, where you get most of the depreciation in the first 5 years,*

Link?

*Even when real estate is appreciating, you get to fully depreciate real estate over 25 years.*

Well, a 25 year older building is certainly in worse shape than when you bought it.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 25, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *What that ignores is that since everyone is paying taxes, even those who are not really making any profit at all after paying for room and board, that the poor are paying much higher rates.*
> 
> You misspelled,  "the poor are paying much lower rates"
> 
> ...



But that is the point, that the first $12,400 being exempt is not enough.
They are paying taxes on income that was not profit, but was part of the cost of simply being able to do business at all.

What they should do instead is just give every head of household a $20k personal exemption, a $10k exemption for each dependent, and then do a flat 25% tax on everything after that.
Then the wealthy would only get the same exemptions and not get any exemptions for interest on their mansions.
They would be paying then 25% on almost everything, which is much more than they pay now.
Lots of the wealthy pay themselves in stock options so they only pay the 15% capital gains tax rate.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> But that is the point, that the first $12,400 being exempt is not enough.
> They are paying taxes on income that was not profit, but was part of the cost of simply being able to do business at all.
> 
> What they should do instead is just give every head of household a $20k personal exemption, a $10k exemption for each dependent, and then do a flat 25% tax on everything after that.
> ...



*But that is the point, that the first $12,400 being exempt is not enough.*

Ok.

*They are paying taxes on income that was not profit, but was part of the cost of simply being able to do business at all.*

Yes, income for most people is not profit. Who said it was?

*What they should do instead is just give every head of household a $20k personal exemption, a $10k exemption for each dependent, and then do a flat 25% tax on everything after that.*

Ok. Was any of this proof of your claim "*that the poor are paying much higher rates"*?

*Then the wealthy would only get the same exemptions and not get any exemptions for interest on their mansions.*

Interest isn't an exemption.

*Lots of the wealthy pay themselves in stock options so they only pay the 15% capital gains tax rate.*

First, they'd pay the standard tax rate on the value of the options.
15% is the capital gains rate up to $496,600 in MAGI for married filing jointly. Above that it's 20%.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 25, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *You know as well as I do that real estate "depreciation" is bogus.*
> 
> Why do you feel that?
> 
> ...



Accelerated depreciation is nothing new.




__





						Accelerated depreciation - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




A 25 year old building is usually in much better shape after 25 years, than when you bought it.
I always buy low priced, distressed buildings that look bad but have decent bones.
With a little remodeling and annual upkeep, all of which you write off, then the value of most building goes way up over time.

Those who lost money on real estate from 2007 to 2009 were foolish.
They paid too much on the bubble, and panicked.
If they had held off til 2010, they would have gotten far more.
Bubble and bust is a constant repeating cycle you can count on.
The 2008 crash was actually deliberate, caused by manipulation of the British LIBOR.
The scandal was not revealed until around 2012.

{...
The *Libor scandal* was a series of fraudulent actions connected to the Libor (London Inter-bank Offered Rate) and also the resulting investigation and reaction. Libor is an average interest rate calculated through submissions of interest rates by major banks across the world. The scandal arose when it was discovered that banks were falsely inflating or deflating their rates so as to profit from trades, or to give the impression that they were more creditworthy than they were.[3] Libor underpins approximately $350 trillion in derivatives. It is currently administered by Intercontinental Exchange, which took over running the Libor in January 2014.[4]

The banks are supposed to submit the actual interest rates they are paying, or would expect to pay, for borrowing from other banks. The Libor is supposed to be the total assessment of the health of the financial system because if the banks being polled feel confident about the state of things, they report a low number and if the member banks feel a low degree of confidence in the financial system, they report a higher interest rate number. In June 2012, multiple criminal settlements by Barclays Bank revealed significant fraud and collusion by member banks connected to the rate submissions, leading to the scandal.[5][6][7]

Because Libor is used in US derivatives markets, an attempt to manipulate Libor is an attempt to manipulate US derivatives markets, and thus a violation of American law. Since mortgages, student loans, financial derivatives, and other financial products often rely on Libor as a reference rate, the manipulation of submissions used to calculate those rates can have significant negative effects on consumers and financial markets worldwide.

On 27 July 2012, the _Financial Times_ published an article by a former trader which stated that Libor manipulation had been common since at least 1991.[8] Further reports on this have since come from the BBC[9][10] and Reuters.[11] On 28 November 2012, the Finance Committee of the Bundestag held a hearing to learn more about the issue.[12]

The British Bankers' Association (BBA) said on 25 September 2012 that it would transfer oversight of Libor to UK regulators, as predicted by bank analysts,[13] proposed by Financial Services Authority managing director Martin Wheatley's independent review recommendations.[14] Wheatley's review recommended that banks submitting rates to Libor must base them on actual inter-bank deposit market transactions and keep records of those transactions, that individual banks' LIBOR submissions be published after three months, and recommended criminal sanctions specifically for manipulation of benchmark interest rates.[15] Financial institution customers may experience higher and more volatile borrowing and hedging costs after implementation of the recommended reforms.[16] The UK government agreed to accept all of the Wheatley Review's recommendations and press for legislation implementing them.[17]

Significant reforms, in line with the Wheatley Review, came into effect in 2013 and a new administrator took over in early 2014.[18][19] The UK controls Libor through laws made in the UK Parliament.[20][21] In particular, the Financial Services Act 2012 brings Libor under UK regulatory oversight and creates a criminal offence for knowingly or deliberately making false or misleading statements relating to benchmark-setting.
...}




__





						Libor scandal - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




Rule of thumb, never accept an ARM based on anything other than the US Prime rate.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 25, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *But that is the point, that the first $12,400 being exempt is not enough.*
> 
> Ok.
> 
> ...



The point is you should not be taxed on income, but only on profit.
The cost of doing business, such as housing, food, clothing, transportation, etc., should be removed first before you figure the taxable profit.
Big corporations do that, but individuals are not allowed.
The personal exemption has not kept up with reality.
They they try to claim the progressive rate makes up for it.
That is bogus.
They should just go with a higher exemption and then use a flat rate for all.

And by the way I can tell you are not wealthy or do not do your own taxes, but cause interest most certainly IS an exemption.
Mortgage interest is profit to the bank, so you get to reduce your income by the amount you pay in mortgage interest.
Otherwise they would essentially be taxing the mortgage interest twice, once to you and then again against the bank.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Accelerated depreciation is nothing new.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*A 25 year old building is usually in much better shape after 25 years, than when you bought it.*

That's just silly.

*With a little remodeling and annual upkeep, all of which you write off, then the value of most building goes way up over time.*

And when you sell, the government recaptures your depreciation.

*Those who lost money on real estate from 2007 to 2009 were foolish.*

Yup. And they disproved your claim.

*The 2008 crash was actually deliberate, caused by manipulation of the British LIBOR.*

LOL! What about Fed funds?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> The point is you should not be taxed on income, but only on profit.
> The cost of doing business, such as housing, food, clothing, transportation, etc., should be removed first before you figure the taxable profit.
> Big corporations do that, but individuals are not allowed.
> The personal exemption has not kept up with reality.
> ...



*The point is you should not be taxed on income, but only on profit.*

Silly.

*The cost of doing business, such as housing, food, clothing, transportation, etc., should be removed first before you figure the taxable profit.*

Sillier.

*Big corporations do that, but individuals are not allowed.*

Yup. Because corporations are taxed on profit. 

*And by the way I can tell you are not wealthy or do not do your own taxes, but cause interest most certainly IS an exemption.*

Mortgage interest is a deduction, not an exemption, idiot.

*Mortgage interest is profit to the bank*

No it isn't.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> What that ignores is that since everyone is paying taxes, even those who are not really making any profit at all after paying for room and board, that the poor are paying much higher rates.
> Taxes are only supposed to be on extra profits, AFTER you write off the cost of doing business.
> But with most individuals, their rent, food, clothing, transportation is not allowed to be written off.
> They are given less than a forth what a reasonable cost of living allowance should be.
> ...



Still looking for your evidence* "that the poor are paying much higher rates"*?


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 25, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *A 25 year old building is usually in much better shape after 25 years, than when you bought it.*
> 
> That's just silly.
> 
> ...



I always at least double my money on real estate, and I flip sooner than 10 years.
The CA bust from 2007 to 2010 was not real but a deliberate fraud, with adjustable mortgages written on the British LIBOR, that doubled the payment after a couple of years.
It is true you repay the depreciation if you sell for a profit, but not if you trade with another land lord.

There is a false claim the feds were just not careful enough who they gave mortgages to, but that is false.
Those buyers were making the payments until the payment doubled.
If the ARM had been based on US Prime, then the payment would have gone down instead of up.


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 25, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> It is why we have a mixed-market economy that is part capitalism and part socialism.
> 
> Government must be the socialism part since it is an externality to Capitalism.


*American government is transitioning from a very limited representative democracy to full-blown oligarchy and there aren't many elected officials pointing this out, imho:*

Brutal Capitalism: How America is transforming from a democracy to an oligarchy | The Milwaukee Independent

"What we are watching is the final stage of the 40-year Reagan-started transition of our nation from a forward-looking and still-evolving democratic republic into a white supremacist ethnostate ruled by a small group of fascist oligarchs.

"Some years ago, Trump economic adviser Stephen Moore (before he was Trump’s advisor) was a guest on my radio/TV program. I (Thom Hartmann) asked him, 'Which is more important, democracy or capitalism?'

"Without hesitation, Moore answered, 'Capitalism.'

"That philosophy (of capitalism being more important than 'We the People' democracy), has held the Republican Party in its thrall for the past 40 years, and has brought America to this moment of great crisis and danger.

*"It has transformed America from a democracy to an oligarchy, and the point of no return is now visible. *

"And that presents a true crisis for America, because oligarchy is almost always merely a transitional phase in the evolution of full-blown tyranny and/or fascism."


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 25, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> LOL!







Donald Trump’s refusal to reveal his tax returns highlights a problem with economic theory


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> I always at least double my money on real estate, and I flip sooner than 10 years.
> The CA bust from 2007 to 2010 was not real but a deliberate fraud, with adjustable mortgages written on the British LIBOR, that doubled the payment after a couple of years.
> It is true you repay the depreciation if you sell for a profit, but not if you trade with another land lord.
> 
> ...



*The CA bust from 2007 to 2010 was not real but a deliberate fraud, with adjustable mortgages written on the British LIBOR, that doubled the payment after a couple of years.*

Are you under the impression that US rates didn't also increase?

*Those buyers were making the payments until the payment doubled.*

Rates went from what up to what, to make the payment double?

*If the ARM had been based on US Prime, then the payment would have gone down instead of up.*

Prove it.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 25, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Still looking for your evidence* "that the poor are paying much higher rates"*?



That is silly because you already showed that unlike businesses, individual are not allow to write off the cost of doing business.
That means they can make no profit and still have a tax liability.
When then means their tax rate is infinite.
What tax rate times 0 profits results in any tax liability at all?
If you say they are taxed on income instead of profits, that is illegal.
No one can legally be taxed on gross income.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> That is silly because you already showed that unlike businesses, individual are not allow to write off the cost of doing business.
> That means they can make no profit and still have a tax liability.
> When then means their tax rate is infinite.
> What tax rate times 0 profits results in any tax liability at all?
> ...



*That is silly because you already showed that unlike businesses, individual are not allow to write off the cost of doing business.*

Salary is different than business profit.

*That means they can make no profit and still have a tax liability.*

Because salary isn't business profit.

*If you say they are taxed on income instead of profits, that is illegal.*

You should notify your congressman, immediately!
Let me know what they say.

*No one can legally be taxed on gross income.*

Who is taxed on gross income? Be specific.


----------



## danielpalos (Oct 25, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *American government is transitioning from a very limited representative democracy to full-blown oligarchy and there aren't many elected officials pointing this out, imho:*
> 
> Brutal Capitalism: How America is transforming from a democracy to an oligarchy | The Milwaukee Independent
> 
> ...


It is why equality matters. 

_The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States._


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 25, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *The CA bust from 2007 to 2010 was not real but a deliberate fraud, with adjustable mortgages written on the British LIBOR, that doubled the payment after a couple of years.*
> 
> Are you under the impression that US rates didn't also increase?
> 
> ...



US rates did not increase, but decreased instead.
That is because the US Prime rate went down with the recession.
Only the British LIBOR went way up.









						The 2008 Housing Crisis
					

Contrary to conservative arguments, the 2008 housing crisis was caused by unregulated and loosely regulated private financial entities—not the federal government’s support for homeownership.




					www.americanprogress.org
				



{...
Government policies that make it more affordable to buy a home were not responsible for the crisis. In fact, consumers who already had mortgages and who had built up equity in their homes were more likely to be targeted for predatory subprime loans than first-time homebuyers.6

Instead of too much government, it was the lack of sufficient government oversight in key areas—including consumer protection, private label mortgage securitization, bank capitalization, and financial markets—that transformed a housing bubble into a global financial crisis.
...
In the early 2000s, the government and GSE share of the mortgage market began to decline as the purely private securitization market, called the private label securities market, or PLS, expanded. During this period, there was a dramatic expansion of mortgage lending, a large portion of which was in subprime loans with predatory features.21 The majority of this mortgage lending was existing homeowners refinancing, with many believing that they were taking advantage of lower interest rates to extract home equity. Instead, they often were exposed to complex and risky products that quickly became unaffordable when economic conditions changed.22 Linked with the expansion of predatory lending and the growth of the PLS market was the repackaging of these risky loans into complicated products through which the same assets were sold multiple times throughout the financial system.

This spread the danger of risky mortgage loans, systematizing the housing market’s risks throughout the global financial system.23 These developments occurred in an environment characterized by minimal government oversight and regulation and depended on a perpetually low interest rate environment where housing prices continued to rise and refinancing remained a viable option to continue borrowing.  When the housing market stalled and interest rates began to rise in the mid-2000s, the wheels came off, leading to the 2008 financial crisis.
...
In the lead-up to the crisis, the majority of nonprime borrowers were sold hybrid adjustable-rate mortgages, or ARMs, which had low initial “teaser” rates that lasted for the first two or three years and then increased afterward.37 Many of these products were not properly explained to borrowers who were then on the hook for unaffordable mortgage obligations. Many of these mortgages were structured to require borrowers to refinance or take out another loan in the future in order to service their debt, thus trapping them.38 Without perpetual home price appreciation and low interest rates, refinancing was practically impossible for many borrowers, and a high number of these subprime mortgages were effectively guaranteed to default.39

The rise of subprime lending was fueled in large part by seemingly inexhaustible Wall Street demand for these higher yielding assets for securitizations. Especially in a long-term, low interest rate environment, these loans, with their higher rates, were in tremendous demand with investors—a demand that Wall Street was eager to meet. The private label securities market, or PLS, Wall Street’s alternative to the government-backed secondary mortgage markets, grew significantly in the lead-up to the crisis. The expansion of an unregulated PLS market and the development of the ever more complicated financial instruments tied to it are what transformed a housing bubble into the largest financial crisis since the Great Depression. PLS volumes increased from $148 billion in 1999 to $1.2 trillion by 2006, increasing the PLS market’s share of total mortgage securitizations from 18 percent to 56 percent.40
...}


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 25, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *That is silly because you already showed that unlike businesses, individual are not allow to write off the cost of doing business.*
> 
> Salary is different than business profit.
> 
> ...



No, since I almost always work as an independent contractor, for me salary is identical to business income.
Which is not at all profit.
I have to deal with everything, like health care.
So it is wrong to charge taxes on income when it should only be on profit.

Except for personal exemptions, all individuals normally are taxed on gross income instead of net profit.
Everyone including individuals and businesses, should be taxed in the same way, only on net profits.


----------



## progressive hunter (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> No, since I almost always work as an independent contractor, for me salary is identical to business income.
> Which is not at all profit.
> I have to deal with everything, like health care.
> So it is wrong to charge taxes on income when it should only be on profit.
> ...


what is a net profit for an individual??


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 25, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Can you explain the labor theory of value and how it isn't complete horseshit?







The Labor Theory of Value and Surplus Value


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 25, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> what is a net profit for an individual??



After you have paid your overhead, like mortgage, food, transportation, etc.
To make it easier, I do not mind a flat exemption, but $12.4k is too low.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> US rates did not increase, but decreased instead.
> That is because the US Prime rate went down with the recession.
> Only the British LIBOR went way up.
> 
> ...



*US rates did not increase, but decreased instead.*

When? Be specific. And show when LIBOR rose.
*
That is because the US Prime rate went down with the recession.*

The real estate bubble burst before the recession. You knew that, right? 

*Government policies that make it more affordable to buy a home were not responsible for the crisis.*

Did those policies increase demand for homes at all?

*Instead of too much government, it was the lack of sufficient government oversight in key areas—including consumer protection, private label mortgage securitization*

What about GSE securitization?
*
PLS volumes increased from $148 billion in 1999 to $1.2 trillion by 2006, increasing the PLS market’s share of total mortgage securitizations from 18 percent to 56 percent.*

How much subprime ended up on the books of Fannie and Freddie?


----------



## progressive hunter (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> After you have paid your overhead, like mortgage, food, transportation, etc.
> To make it easier, I do not mind a flat exemption, but $12.4k is too low.


so you want to tax savings????


----------



## danielpalos (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> No, since I almost always work as an independent contractor, for me salary is identical to business income.
> Which is not at all profit.
> I have to deal with everything, like health care.
> So it is wrong to charge taxes on income when it should only be on profit.
> ...


Do you get to expense the cost of wages?


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 25, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *US rates did not increase, but decreased instead.*
> 
> When? Be specific. And show when LIBOR rose.
> 
> ...



All of them because the whole point of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were to buy these holdings, and they were required to buy them by law.
But none of these subprime mortgages were written by Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac.
The mortgages they wrote had the lowest default rates of anyone.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 25, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> so you want to tax savings????



What do you mean by "savings"?
If you mean previous profit you already have in the bank from previous years, then of course no.
If you mean profit you made this year that was beyond what you had to pay in costs, then of course yes.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 25, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> Do you get to expense the cost of wages?



Businesses who hire employees or independent contractors like me do get to expense the cost of wages.
I do not pay anyone wages, so I can not.
But good point, I should claim I am paying my wife for cooking/cleaning, and start paying her wages.
Not a bad idea.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> No, since I almost always work as an independent contractor, for me salary is identical to business income.
> Which is not at all profit.
> I have to deal with everything, like health care.
> So it is wrong to charge taxes on income when it should only be on profit.
> ...



*No, since I almost always work as an independent contractor, for me salary is identical to business income.*

What percentage of your living expenses do you get to write-off?

*So it is wrong to charge taxes on income when it should only be on profit.*

Most employees don't earn a profit, they earn a wage.

*Except for personal exemptions, all individuals normally are taxed on gross income instead of net profit.*

Damn, you're funny.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 25, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The Labor Theory of Value and Surplus Value



Where is the wealth created by capital in your simplistic cartoon?


----------



## progressive hunter (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> What do you mean by "savings"?
> If you mean previous profit you already have in the bank from previous years, then of course no.
> If you mean profit you made this year that was beyond what you had to pay in costs, then of course yes.


the money left over after paying bills and necessities is called savings,,, and if you still have money left over from previous paychecks thats also a profit and subject to your tax

and your idea also requires a person to list all personal spending which is evil and fascist,,,


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> All of them because the whole point of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were to buy these holdings, and they were required to buy them by law.
> But none of these subprime mortgages were written by Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac.
> The mortgages they wrote had the lowest default rates of anyone.



*the whole point of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were to buy these holdings, and they were required to buy them by law.*

The law required them to buy crappy mortgages? 
I thought you said government policies weren't to blame?

*But none of these subprime mortgages were written by Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac.*

You know that Fannie and Freddie never wrote any mortgages, right? 

*The mortgages they wrote had the lowest default rates of anyone.*

DURR.


----------



## progressive hunter (Oct 25, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *No, since I almost always work as an independent contractor, for me salary is identical to business income.*
> 
> What percentage of your living expenses do you get to write-off?
> 
> ...


I wouldnt use funny,, more like evil,,,


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 25, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *No, since I almost always work as an independent contractor, for me salary is identical to business income.*
> 
> What percentage of your living expenses do you get to write-off?
> 
> ...



I get to write off zero living expenses except the std exemption.
I could try to claim part of the home was an office, but that is one of those red flags known to get you audited.
A wage is what you are paid as gross income, and not net profit.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 25, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> the money left over after paying bills and necessities is called savings,,, and if you still have money left over from previous paychecks thats also a profit and subject to your tax
> 
> and your idea also requires a person to list all personal spending which is evil and fascist,,,



No, money left over after paying bills and necessities could be spend on entertainment, so then would not be savings.
And no, my idea does not require itemizing all personal spending, just spending on bills and necessities.
Plus I also said that a single std exemption would be fine, but just that it is too small now.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 25, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> I wouldnt use funny,, more like evil,,,



How is giving individuals realistic exemptions, evil?


----------



## progressive hunter (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> No, money left over after paying bills and necessities could be spend on entertainment, so then would not be savings.
> And no, my idea does not require itemizing all personal spending, just spending on bills and necessities.
> Plus I also said that a single std exemption would be fine, but just that it is too small now.


could be doesnt mean it is,,  and spending all you paycheck doesnt allow for savings,,

I'm gonna have to say your idea is not just stupid but evil,,


----------



## progressive hunter (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> How is giving individuals realistic exemptions, evil?


what do you mean by realistic??

easier to just have a small flat rate and be done with the whole tax code,,


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> I get to write off zero living expenses except the std exemption.



So you lied when you said salary is identical to business income.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 25, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> so you want to tax savings????



What are you talking about?
Savings are currently taxed when you get them as income.
You are also currently taxed on your overhead, like rent, food, transportation, etc., that is in excess of $12.4k.
The point is to make overhead exemption more realistic.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 25, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> I wouldnt use funny,, more like evil,,,



Not evil, more like ignorant.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 25, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> what do you mean by realistic??
> 
> easier to just have a small flat rate and be done with the whole tax code,,



By realistic, I mean no one can live on the amount the IRS allows you to exempt from taxes.
The personal exemption needs to be larger, to a realistic amount.

Going flat is ok, but then would be a lot more work because you would have to itemize everything.


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 25, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The Labor Theory of Value and Surplus Value


I asked you to explain it, not refer me to some piece of communist propaganda.

Now can you explain why it's totally full of shit?


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 25, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> So you lied when you said salary is identical to business income.



Wrong.
Except for personal exemption, salary is identical to business income.
It is gross, not net.


----------



## progressive hunter (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> What are you talking about?
> Savings are currently taxed when you get them as income.
> You are also currently taxed on your overhead, like rent, food, transportation, etc., that is in excess of $12.4k.
> The point is to make overhead exemption more realistic.


NO YOU ARE NOT TAXED ON SAVINGS YOU STUPID FUCK,, 

you already paid taxs on them,,

what taxs do we pay on rent and food transportation ect.???

what overhead exemptions are you talking about and what do you mean by realistic??


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Wrong.
> Except for personal exemption, salary is identical to business income.
> It is gross, not net.



Still looking for your evidence *"that the poor are paying much higher rates"*?


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 25, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> I asked you to explain it, not refer me to some piece of communist propaganda.
> 
> Now can you explain why it's totally full of shit?



There is a basic unfairness that excess capital is so valuable that you can make a huge profit just loaning it out.
Those who then are forced to pay the loan interest and do all the work, do not get a fair share of the fruits of their labor.


----------



## progressive hunter (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Wrong.
> Except for personal exemption, salary is identical to business income.
> It is gross, not net.


my guess is you have your shoes on the wrong feet,,


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> There is a basic unfairness that excess capital is so valuable that you can make a huge profit just loaning it out.
> Those who then are forced to pay the loan interest and do all the work, do not get a fair share of the fruits of their labor.



If you don't want to pay interest, don't borrow.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 25, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> NO YOU ARE NOT TAXED ON SAVINGS YOU STUPID FUCK,,
> 
> you already paid taxs on them,,
> 
> ...



That is EXACTLY what I said.
I said, "you already paid taxes on saving", so no one is talking about taxing them again.

What taxes do you NOT pay on rent, food, transportation, etc.?
Of course the money you pay for rent, food, transportation, etc., was taxed as income, when you were paid.

The overhead exemption we are talking about is the std personal exemption, and the point is it is too small.
It is unrealistic.
It need to be bigger, in order to cover realistic rent, food, transportation, etc.


----------



## dblack (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> There is a basic unfairness that excess capital is so valuable that you can make a huge profit just loaning it out.
> Those who then are forced to pay the loan interest and do all the work, do not get a fair share of the fruits of their labor.


Socialists can't seem to comprehend the basic function of investment, profit on the investment, and how it serves a vital function in an economy. Until they get their wish and try to make a command economy work. Then they figure it out pretty quickly.


----------



## progressive hunter (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> That is EXACTLY what I said.
> I said, "you already paid taxes on saving", so no one is talking about taxing them again.
> 
> What taxes do you NOT pay on rent, food, transportation, etc.?
> ...


your shirts on backwards to isnt it??

like I said its easier to have a low flat rate and not have all this complicated crazy shit youre making up,,


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> I always at least double my money on real estate, and I flip sooner than 10 years.
> The CA bust from 2007 to 2010 was not real but a deliberate fraud, with adjustable mortgages written on the British LIBOR, that doubled the payment after a couple of years.
> It is true you repay the depreciation if you sell for a profit, but not if you trade with another land lord.
> 
> ...



*If the ARM had been based on US Prime, then the payment would have gone down instead of up.*

Still looking for your proof?

Come on, you can post a chart of LIBOR and a chart of US Prime......right?


----------



## progressive hunter (Oct 25, 2021)

Biden’s Treasury Secretary wants to tax the ‘unrealized capital gains’, but here’s why that’s a terrible idea
					

Biden’s Treasury Secretary said yesterday that she wants to tax the ‘unrealized capital gains’ in order to pay for Biden’s 3.5 trillion dollar agenda:   Washington Post…




					therightscoop.com


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 25, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Still looking for your evidence *"that the poor are paying much higher rates"*?



We already covered that.
If the person's cost of living is higher than the personal exemption, then the reality is they are paying a much higher rate than the IRS claims.

Example, if a person makes $20k but their cost of living is $20k, then they should be paying no taxes at all.
But they will be paying taxes.
All the money after $12.4k is going to be taxed.
So then it requires an infinite rate to get any taxes from what is $0 profit.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 25, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> If you don't want to pay interest, don't borrow.



The whole point of why the industrial revolution was so traumatic to the loss of personal freedom, is that then the cost of doing business greatly increased, forcing most people to have to borrow and pay interest.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 25, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *If the ARM had been based on US Prime, then the payment would have gone down instead of up.*
> 
> Still looking for your proof?
> 
> Come on, you can post a chart of LIBOR and a chart of US Prime......right?



Oh, is that what you wanted.
See the spike in the LIBOR right before the 2008 defaults?


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> There is a basic unfairness that excess capital is so valuable that you can make a huge profit just loaning it out.
> Those who then are forced to pay the loan interest and do all the work, do not get a fair share of the fruits of their labor.


The amount of interest earned is not huge.  Workers do the brute labor, but they risk nothing.  Do you really believe that someone risking millions of dollars should be paid nothing for it?  Do you know how many businesses have gone bankrupt in the last year?


----------



## progressive hunter (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> We already covered that.
> If the person's cost of living is higher than the personal exemption, then the reality is they are paying a much higher rate than the IRS claims.
> 
> Example, if a person makes $20k but their cost of living is $20k, then they should be paying no taxes at all.
> ...


easier to just have a flat low rate and not all the crazy deductions and complications that come with them,,

well unless youre an accountant,, are you an accountant??


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> We already covered that.
> If the person's cost of living is higher than the personal exemption, then the reality is they are paying a much higher rate than the IRS claims.
> 
> Example, if a person makes $20k but their cost of living is $20k, then they should be paying no taxes at all.
> ...



*We already covered that.*

Which post had your evidence?

*Example, if a person makes $20k but their cost of living is $20k, then they should be paying no taxes at all. But they will be paying taxes.*

Cool story. That doesn't help your claim.


----------



## 22lcidw (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> How is giving individuals realistic exemptions, evil?


Living in high tax states is a privilege. Hundreds of billions of dollars a year in federal non tax compliant thieves going to parasites that do not pay their fair share using state and local and other high taxes as tax breaks to the federal level.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Oh, is that what you wanted.
> See the spike in the LIBOR right before the 2008 defaults?



Holy shit. You just disproved your own claim. 
Unless you think all mortgages reset in the same month. 









__





						Federal Reserve Economic Data | FRED | St. Louis Fed
					

Download, graph, and track 818,000 economic time series from 110 sources.



					fred.stlouisfed.org


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 25, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> The amount of interest earned is not huge.  Workers do the brute labor, but they risk nothing.  Do you really believe that someone risking millions of dollars should be paid nothing for it?  Do you know how many businesses have gone bankrupt in the last year?



Workers risk everything.
They often have to use their homes as collateral.
Banks risk nothing because the fed will bail them out and insures their loans.
And when the fed does bail out the bank, it does not bail out the borrower.  (unless you are really big, like Chrysler.)

If we were to start rewarding people for taking risks, then criminals would have to be compensated the most.


----------



## progressive hunter (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Workers risk everything.
> They often have to use their homes as collateral.
> Banks risk nothing because the fed will bail them out and insures their loans.
> And when the fed does bail out the bank, it does not bail out the borrower.  (unless you are really big, like Chrysler.)
> ...


WTF!!!

when has a worker ever had to use their home as collateral to have a job??


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 25, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> easier to just have a flat low rate and not all the crazy deductions and complications that come with them,,
> 
> well unless youre an accountant,, are you an accountant??



Sure, but the point is that $12.4k is ridiculously low.
Should be about 50% more, like $18k.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 25, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *We already covered that.*
> 
> Which post had your evidence?
> 
> ...



Yes it does.
It illustrates that since the personal exemption is too low, that we are actually paying a much higher rate than we realize.
We are paying taxes on some money that was not really profit, so then the reality is we are paying a much higher rate on the money that really is taxable profit.


----------



## progressive hunter (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Yes it does.
> It illustrates that since the personal exemption is too low, that we are actually paying a much higher rate than we realize.
> We are paying taxes on some money that was not really profit, so then the reality is we are paying a much higher rate on the money that really is taxable profit.


individuals dont pay taxs on profit,,


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 25, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Holy shit. You just disproved your own claim.
> Unless you think all mortgages reset in the same month.
> 
> View attachment 556313
> ...



Wrong.
Your graph shows the LIBOR spike as well, and once some rates increased unrealistically high, then the defaults cascaded, causing a recession that put the mortgages that were not being recalculated into default as well, because their jobs disappeared.
Eventually some home buyers defaulted on their mortgage simply because they could buy other properties that had already defaulted, for much less than they were paying.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 25, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> individuals dont pay taxs on profit,,



But that is the point, that they are supposed to ONLY be paying taxes on profits, not total salary or income.


----------



## elektra (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> I read all the news, including Der Spiegel, Al Jazeera, the Guardian, etc.


Yes, all the fake news. Like I said.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 25, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> WTF!!!
> 
> when has a worker ever had to use their home as collateral to have a job??



Anyone who is self employed, like an independent contractor.


----------



## progressive hunter (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> But that is the point, that they are supposed to ONLY be paying taxes on profits, not total salary or income.


where do you come up with this shit??
ry reading the tax code sometime,,


----------



## progressive hunter (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Anyone who is self employed, like an independent contractor.


thats not a worker thats an owner operator,,

its official.. youve lost your fucking mind


----------



## Ringtone (Oct 25, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf
> 
> "Capitalism and democracy follow different logics: unequally distributed property rights on the one hand, equal civic and political rights on the other; profit oriented trade within capitalism in contrast to the search for the common good within democracy; debate, compromise and majority decision-making within democratic politics versus hierarchical decision-making by managers and capital owners.
> 
> ...


As a form of government, democracy sucks.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 25, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> where do you come up with this shit??
> ry reading the tax code sometime,,



I almost always do my own taxes, and I also have my own LLC.
I almost know as much as accountants do about taxes.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Banks risk nothing because the fed will bail them out and insures their loans.
> And when the fed does bail out the bank, it does not bail out the borrower.



Banks repaid all their loans from the Fed and the Treasury.
TARP spent tens of billions bailing out borrowers.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 25, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> thats not a worker thats an owner operator,,
> 
> its official.. youve lost your fucking mind



Taxes are supposed to be the same rules for everyone, whether employer or employee.
If something is not taxable profit to one, it should not be taxable profit to the other.


----------



## progressive hunter (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> I almost always do my own taxes, and I also have my own LLC.
> I almost know as much as accountants do about taxes.


so youre lying,, got it,,


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> It illustrates that since the personal exemption is too low,



Cool claim.
You still haven't proven *"that the poor are paying much higher rates".

that we are actually paying a much higher rate than we realize.*

So, you won't be posting any proof? LOL!


----------



## progressive hunter (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Taxes are supposed to be the same rules for everyone, whether employer or employee.
> If something is not taxable profit to one, it should not be taxable profit to the other.


would you please stop lying,,

how about you be specific about what tax is being paid??


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 25, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Banks repaid all their loans from the Fed and the Treasury.
> TARP spent tens of billions bailing out borrowers.



Wrong.
The banks sold all their subprime mortgages to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mae, and never paid those losses back.
TARP did bail out borrowers, but only the very wealthy ones.
The small ones, like individual home buyers, got nothing.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 25, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Cool claim.
> You still haven't proven *"that the poor are paying much higher rates".
> 
> that we are actually paying a much higher rate than we realize.*
> ...



I already did.
I pointed out that an individual who made no profit, (meaning their cost of doing business was greater than what they took in as salary ), is still forced to pay taxes.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Wrong.
> Your graph shows the LIBOR spike as well, and once some rates increased unrealistically high, then the defaults cascaded, causing a recession that put the mortgages that were not being recalculated into default as well, because their jobs disappeared.
> Eventually some home buyers defaulted on their mortgage simply because they could buy other properties that had already defaulted, for much less than they were paying.



*Your graph shows the LIBOR spike as well*

The RE bubble was bursting in 2007.....Bear Stearns had 2 funds go bust in July.

Now, about your claim that mortgages based on the Prime Rate would have gone down.....LOL!

*and once some rates increased unrealistically high, then the defaults cascaded,*

In September 2008? LOL!

*Eventually some home buyers defaulted on their mortgage simply because they could buy other properties that had already defaulted, for much less than they were paying.*

Lots of people defaulting on their old mortgages and then getting new ones immediately?


----------



## progressive hunter (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> I already did.
> I pointed out that an individual who made no profit, (meaning their cost of doing business was greater than what they took in as salary ), is still forced to pay taxes.


individuals dont make profits,, they make a paycheck,,


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 25, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> would you please stop lying,,
> 
> how about you be specific about what tax is being paid??



We have always been only talking about federal income tax regulations.
And it is supposed to be illegal for an employer to be able to claim rent, food, transportation, etc. , as a deductible expense, when individuals can not.
The rules are supposed to be imposed identically for everyone.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Wrong.
> The banks sold all their subprime mortgages to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mae, and never paid those losses back.
> TARP did bail out borrowers, but only the very wealthy ones.
> The small ones, like individual home buyers, got nothing.



*The banks sold all their subprime mortgages to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mae, and never paid those losses back.*

All of them? When?

*TARP did bail out borrowers, but only the very wealthy ones.*

The Treasury spent $22 billion. How much was "only the very wealthy ones"?









						Bailout Tracker
					

ProPublica is still tracking where every dollar of taxpayer money from the 2008 bailout of the financial system has gone. See for yourself.



					projects.propublica.org


----------



## progressive hunter (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> We have always been only talking about federal income tax regulations.
> And it is supposed to be illegal for an employer to be able to claim rent, food, transportation, etc. , as a deductible expense, when individuals can not.
> The rules are supposed to be imposed identically for everyone.


employers have always been able to deduct costs of doing business that include rent transportation ect...
business and individuals have always had a different code and rules,,
why are you lying??


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> I already did.
> I pointed out that an individual who made no profit, (meaning their cost of doing business was greater than what they took in as salary ), is still forced to pay taxes.



*I pointed out that an individual who made no profit, (meaning their cost of doing business was greater than what they took in as salary ), *

Salary isn't profit. Not now, not ever, never. It's stupid to claim it is.
The bottom 50%, more lately, pay no federal income taxes and are not paying *"much higher rates"*.
They're paying much lower rates. They're paying zero or less.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 25, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *Your graph shows the LIBOR spike as well*
> 
> The RE bubble was bursting in 2007.....Bear Stearns had 2 funds go bust in July.
> 
> ...



I know I am completely right because I had a real estate license, buy and sell often, keep up on it, and knew lots of people in the industry.
People would not normally default on their mortgages and then immediately buy another because their own previous payment would have gone down with the US Prime rate, so there would be no advantage in defaulting and paying new closing costs.
The only reason why anyone would do this is if the old mortgage rate increased unrealistically, as happened to CA home buyers who had adjustable mortgages based on the British LIBOR.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> And it is supposed to be illegal for an employer to be able to claim rent, food, transportation, etc. , as a deductible expense, when individuals can not.



Where did you find that?

Was it the 1906 Geneva Conventions?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> I know I am completely right because I had a real estate license, buy and sell often, keep up on it, and knew lots of people in the industry.
> People would not normally default on their mortgages and then immediately buy another because their own previous payment would have gone down with the US Prime rate, so there would be no advantage in defaulting and paying new closing costs.
> The only reason why anyone would do this is if the old mortgage rate increased unrealistically, as happened to CA home buyers who had adjustable mortgages based on the British LIBOR.



*People would not normally default on their mortgages and then immediately buy another because their own previous payment would have gone down with the US Prime rate,*

When would they have gone down with the Prime Rate but up with LIBOR, starting in 2007?
Because shit was already hitting the fan long before the September 2008 spike in LIBOR.

If your teaser rate expired after a year, your reset had squat to do with LIBOR.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 25, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> employers have always been able to deduct costs of doing business that include rent transportation ect...
> business and individuals have always had a different code and rules,,
> why are you lying??



No, the discussion has NEVER been about employers being able to deduct costs.
The point is that individuals used to always have the option of itemizing and writing off expenses as well.
They have made it much harder to itemize now, and they never allowed rent or food to be written off.
They do allow mortgages to be written of by individuals however, which is very unfair to poor people.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 25, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> employers have always been able to deduct costs of doing business that include rent transportation ect...
> business and individuals have always had a different code and rules,,
> why are you lying??



Maybe he's on the spectrum?
He's making less sense than usual.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> No, the discussion has NEVER been about employers being able to deduct costs.
> The point is that individuals used to always have the option of itemizing and writing off expenses as well.
> They have made it much harder to itemize now, and they never allowed rent or food to be written off.
> They do allow mortgages to be written of by individuals however, which is very unfair to poor people.



*The point is that individuals used to always have the option of itemizing and writing off expenses as well.*

Yeah, when tax rates were much higher. So what?

*and they never allowed rent or food to be written off.*

Because living expenses aren't business expenses.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 25, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *I pointed out that an individual who made no profit, (meaning their cost of doing business was greater than what they took in as salary ), *
> 
> Salary isn't profit. Not now, not ever, never. It's stupid to claim it is.
> The bottom 50%, more lately, pay no federal income taxes and are not paying *"much higher rates"*.
> They're paying much lower rates. They're paying zero or less.



That makes no sense.
Anyone making more than $12.4k is paying taxes according to you, so now you are claiming that 50% of the people make less than $12.4k?

And I never said salary was profit.
I said it was gross income.
Profit is after you subtract expenses from gross income.


----------



## progressive hunter (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> No, the discussion has NEVER been about employers being able to deduct costs.
> The point is that individuals used to always have the option of itemizing and writing off expenses as well.
> They have made it much harder to itemize now, and they never allowed rent or food to be written off.
> They do allow mortgages to be written of by individuals however, which is very unfair to poor people.


youre lying again,, and deductions are easier now not harder,,

now show me where an employer hasnt ever been able to deduct the costs of doing business like rent, food  and transportation??

why would an individual be allowed to write of food and rent and transportation if its not a cost of doing a business they dont have??

mortgages are not written off,, interest is,,

would you please stop the lying or show the proof??


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 25, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Where did you find that?
> 
> Was it the 1906 Geneva Conventions?



14th amendment.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 25, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *People would not normally default on their mortgages and then immediately buy another because their own previous payment would have gone down with the US Prime rate,*
> 
> When would they have gone down with the Prime Rate but up with LIBOR, starting in 2007?
> Because shit was already hitting the fan long before the September 2008 spike in LIBOR.
> ...



The teaser rate was locked for 2 years, but normal mortgages have a max incremental change.
The CA LIBOR ARM holders were hit with a 50% increase.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 25, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *The point is that individuals used to always have the option of itemizing and writing off expenses as well.*
> 
> Yeah, when tax rates were much higher. So what?
> 
> ...



Yes, the cost of living is a business expense, just as the factory owner paying his rent is.


----------



## progressive hunter (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Yes, the cost of living is a business expense, just as the factory owner paying his rent is.


cost of living is a living expense because youre not running a business and cost of doing business is a business expense because youre doing business,,


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 25, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> youre lying again,, and deductions are easier now not harder,,
> 
> now show me where an employer hasnt ever been able to deduct the costs of doing business like rent, food  and transportation??
> 
> ...



Why do you keep getting this reversed and wrong?
We have never been discussing business.
They always have been able to write off everything and then some.
So we have never been talking about them.

Instead we have been talking about individuals, how they used to be able to write off expenses, and that has been slowly eroded, illegally.
Food and rent IS a cost of doing business for any employee.
It is not profit, and should not be taxed.


----------



## progressive hunter (Oct 25, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Maybe he's on the spectrum?
> He's making less sense than usual.


I'm thinking hes an AI bot set on stupid,,


----------



## progressive hunter (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Why do you keep getting this reversed and wrong?
> We have never been discussing business.
> They always have been able to write off everything and then some.
> So we have never been talking about them.
> ...


I asked you nicely to quit lying and yet you keep doing it,,

food and rent are not the cost of doing business for an employee because hes not doing business,, he working a job and going home, the employer is doing the business,,


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> That makes no sense.
> Anyone making more than $12.4k is paying taxes according to you, so now you are claiming that 50% of the people make less than $12.4k?
> 
> And I never said salary was profit.
> ...



_While 2020 was an unusual year due to expanded government support through the tax code to combat the pandemic’s economic effects and due to lower household incomes, it continues an ongoing trend of fewer households paying income tax due to long-running expansions in the Child Tax Credit (CTC) and Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC). TPC finds that in 2020, out of 176.2 individuals and married couples who could file a tax return, about 144.5 million of them actually filed a tax return. Of the 144.5 million, 75.1 million filers paid no taxes after deductions and credits. Another 32 million households did not file a tax return. In total, about 107 million Americans (or 60.6 percent of households) paid no federal income taxes.









						COVID-19 Tax Relief Added to Increasing Share of Households Paying No Income Tax
					

In 2020, about 60 percent of households did not pay income tax, up from 43.6 percent of households in 2019. Much of the 2020 increase was due to pandemic-related factors, but the growing share of households paying no income tax should be kept in mind when evaluating the progressivity of the...




					taxfoundation.org
				



_


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> 14th amendment.



Post the part that mentions rent, food, transportation, etc. , as a deductible expense.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> The teaser rate was locked for 2 years, but normal mortgages have a max incremental change.
> The CA LIBOR ARM holders were hit with a 50% increase.



Like I said, the teaser reset had squat to do with a 3 week LIBOR spike, after the bubble already burst.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Yes, the cost of living is a business expense, just as the factory owner paying his rent is.



Nope, my cost of living isn't a business expense.





__





						Topic No. 407 Business Income | Internal Revenue Service
					

Topic No. 407 Business Income




					www.irs.gov
				




*just as the factory owner paying his rent is*

How do you calculate business income without subtracting business expenses?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> We have never been discussing business.
> They always have been able to write off everything and then some.



A business owner can't deduct his cost of living.


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 26, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Yup, stock holders make money when their stock goes up. So what?


Stock holders make money from artificially created bubbles: 





https://seekingalpha.com/article/4324870-fed-created-monster-bubble-can-no-longer-control


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 26, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Thanks! Even the people at the 20th percentile are doing better.



"Beginning in the 1970s, economic growth slowed and the income gap widened.
Income growth for households in the middle and lower parts of the distribution slowed sharply, while incomes at the top continued to grow strongly.
The concentration of income at the very top of the distribution rose to levels last seen nearly a century ago, during the 'Roaring Twenties.'"

A Guide to Statistics on Historical Trends in Income Inequality | Center on Budget and Policy Priorities


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 26, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> How'd your commie heroes do in the 1930s


*Well enough to kick capitalists' ass in WWII*.




"There were impressive gains in heavy industries, mining and construction. 

*"The Soviet Union became the world's leading producer of oil, coal, iron ore, and cement, and it became a major world producer of manganese, gold, natural gas and other minerals. *

"These gains enabled the USSR to develop the defence industries it needed to fight Hitler's armies during World War Two."

Economic Growth and Living Standards During the 1930s : Revolution From Above : Orlando Figes


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 26, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Stock holders make money from artificially created bubbles:



Yup.

Even idiots like you can benefit from owning stock.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 26, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "Beginning in the 1970s, economic growth slowed and the income gap widened.
> Income growth for households in the middle and lower parts of the distribution slowed sharply, while incomes at the top continued to grow strongly.
> The concentration of income at the very top of the distribution rose to levels last seen nearly a century ago, during the 'Roaring Twenties.'"
> 
> A Guide to Statistics on Historical Trends in Income Inequality | Center on Budget and Policy Priorities



_"Beginning in the 1970s, economic growth slowed and the income gap widened._

Technology helped more skilled people earn more.
Unskilled people, not so much.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 26, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Well enough to kick capitalists' ass in WWII*.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for the link!

_According to the TSU, Soviet national income grew by 14% between 1928 and 1941. But more objective recent estimates have adjusted this figure to a growth rate of just 3 to 5% between 1928 and 1941._

Check it out.....Commies lied.


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 26, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Well enough to kick capitalists' ass in WWII*.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Propaganda.


----------



## kaz (Oct 26, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> I do not agree we have total "mob rule"



Yes, you're an ideologue.   Reality doesn't interest you


----------



## kaz (Oct 26, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> The more money I make, the more I can afford tax dodges, like becoming a slum lord and writing off depreciation, so the less taxes I pay.



Then why do the top 1% pay almost half of all income taxes if the more money you make the better they can dodge taxes?

Again, you're an ideologue.  Reality doesn't interest you


----------



## kaz (Oct 26, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> What that ignores is that since everyone is paying taxes, even those who are not really making any profit at all after paying for room and board, that the poor are paying much higher rates.
> Taxes are only supposed to be on extra profits, AFTER you write off the cost of doing business.
> But with most individuals, their rent, food, clothing, transportation is not allowed to be written off.
> They are given less than a forth what a reasonable cost of living allowance should be.
> ...



That the top 1% pay almost half of all taxes is a fact.  It's an IRS statistic.  Facts don't "ignore" things.  Democrats ignore facts.    You know, you ...

The rest is you just babbling Marxist dogma


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 26, 2021)

dblack said:


> Exactly. State control of the economy is a bad idea. It gives government far too much power.


*Any thoughts on "the People's Ledger"?*

Biden’s Nominee Omarova Has a Published Plan to Move All Bank Deposits to the Fed and Let the New York Fed Short Stocks

"The paper is titled 'The People’s Ledger: How to Democratize Money and Finance the Economy.'

"The paper, in all seriousness, proposes the following:

"(1) Moving _all_ commercial bank deposits from commercial banks to so-called FedAccounts at the Federal Reserve;

"(2) Allowing the Fed, in 'extreme and rare circumstances, when the Fed is unable to control inflation by raising interest rates,' *to confiscate deposits from these FedAccounts in order to tighten monetary policy;"*


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 26, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Any thoughts on "the People's Ledger"?*
> 
> Biden’s Nominee Omarova Has a Published Plan to Move All Bank Deposits to the Fed and Let the New York Fed Short Stocks
> 
> ...



Stupid ideas.


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 26, 2021)

dblack said:


> s much as it takes. Income inequality is a good thing. As long as it's the result of voluntary trade, it's the truest representation of the "will of the people". Far moreso than simple majority rule.


It's a good thing capitalism doesn't have to worry about "simple majority rule." When a small, greedy minority who own the means of production decided to ship millions of middle class jobs to low wage countries, levels of rising income inequality in the US became a representation of the will of rich people and the road to serfdom for the majority.


----------



## dblack (Oct 26, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Any thoughts on "the People's Ledger"?*
> 
> Biden’s Nominee Omarova Has a Published Plan to Move All Bank Deposits to the Fed and Let the New York Fed Short Stocks
> 
> ...


LOL, what do you think?


----------



## dblack (Oct 26, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> It's a good thing capitalism doesn't have to worry about "simple majority rule."


Indeed it is. It allows for a market that attends to the needs of everyone, not just the majority.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 26, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> It's a good thing capitalism doesn't have to worry about "simple majority rule." When a small, greedy minority who own the means of production decided to ship millions of middle class jobs to low wage countries, levels of rising income inequality in the US became a representation of the will of rich people and the road to serfdom for the majority.



Did you ever find where capitalism killed 5 million from lack of drinking water?


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 27, 2021)

g5000 said:


> Those were sovereign countries they invaded and imprisoned, dipshit.


*In response to western efforts to deny democratic outcomes in Greece and Italy, Loon.*

Origins of the Cold War - Wikipedia

"In Greece, during a civil war involving the communist-led partisan movement ELAS-EAM, British Special Forces terminated arms supplies to the ELA-ELAM, pro-monarchist armed forces were strengthened.[73][74] 

"On the political front, Americans, with British encouragement, attempted to dismantle ELAS-EAM socialist structures in the countryside, and an anti-communist swing gradually occurred.[75]

"Western Allies conducted meetings in Italy in March 1945 with German representatives to forestall a takeover by Italian communist resistance forces in northern Italy and to hinder the potential there for post-war influence of the civilian communist party.[76][77] 

"The affair caused a major rift between Stalin and Churchill, and in a letter to Roosevelt on 3 April Stalin complained that the secret negotiations did not serve to 'preserve and promote trust between our countries.'"

*Yet another example of how capitalists hate democracy.*


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 27, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *In response to western efforts to deny democratic outcomes in Greece and Italy, Loon.*
> 
> Origins of the Cold War - Wikipedia
> 
> ...



You still whining because the commies lost?


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 27, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> You mean fascism.


Like this?




After Jan. 6, Investigating the Contours of a “Broad Fascist Movement” in the U.S.


----------



## dblack (Oct 27, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> In response to western efforts to deny democratic outcomes in Greece and Italy, Loon.


"Democratic outcomes" are frequently shit.


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 27, 2021)

themirrorthief said:


> without money you have zero freedom try taking a vacation or doing anything when your ass is broke


Where has most of the money gone over the past forty years?





One chart that shows how much worse income inequality is in America than Europe


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 27, 2021)

themirrorthief said:


> the new deal did nothing but world war 2 ended the depression dumbass


*The New Deal put millions of unemployed men back to work after capitalism crashed:*

Putting People Back to Work [ushistory.org]

"The first such initiative began in March 1933. Called the CIVILIAN CONSERVATION CORPS, this program was aimed at over two million unemployed unmarried men between the ages of 17 and 25...."

"In the fall of 1933, Roosevelt authorized the CIVIL WORKS ADMINISTRATION. Also headed by Hopkins, this program employed 2.5 million in a month's time, and eventually grew to a multitudinous 4 million at its peak."


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 27, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Where has most of the money gone over the past forty years?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Skills pay more than ever. Too bad you never acquired any.


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 27, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Like this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That isn't fascism, shit for brains.


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 27, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *The New Deal put millions of unemployed men back to work after capitalism crashed:*
> 
> Putting People Back to Work [ushistory.org]
> 
> ...


Actually the New Deal made the depression last longer.


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 28, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Government cause the mortgage crisis by forcing banks to give loans to people that didn't have good credit.


The collapse of the housing market was caused by low interest rates, easy credit, insufficient regulation, and toxic subprime mortgage fraud 80% of which was driven by private, for-profit lenders.

CNN.com - FBI warns of mortgage fraud 'epidemic'  - Sep 17, 2004


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 28, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Of course, you always blame capitalism for every problem in the world. Government is the cause of virtually every social and economic problem in the world that is humanly solvable.


*Capitalists own every government on the planet.
Every social and economic problem "government" gets blamed for stems from privatizing profits and socializing costs.*

Tallying Capitalism’s Death Toll

"Capitalism has ruled contemporary society since the dawn of the industrial revolution. 

"Capitalism organizes the means of production to generate profit for the few, rather than meeting the needs of the many. 

"Capitalism has wreaked havoc on our planet, and our worth as individuals. 

*"Capitalism will not satisfy the needs of the vast majority, simply because it is not profitable to do so."*


----------



## Brain357 (Oct 28, 2021)

Capitalism thrives in a democracy.


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 28, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Why does the USSR deserve any praise for being the victim? In fact, it was one of the perps in the war. Stalin helped Hitler carve up Poland. It brought the wolf to its door.


*Capitalism started both world wars of the 20th century*




"'The contribution made by American capitalism to German war preparations can only be described as phenomenal. It was certainly crucial to German military capabilities.... Not only was an influential sector of American business aware of the nature of Nazism, but for its own purposes aided Nazism wherever possible (and profitable)--with full knowledge that the probable outcome would be war involving Europe and the United States.'"

Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler: The Astonishing True Story of the American Financiers Who Bankrolled the Nazis a book by Antony C. Sutton


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 28, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The collapse of the housing market was caused by low interest rates, easy credit, insufficient regulation, and toxic subprime mortgage fraud 80% of which was driven by private, for-profit lenders.
> 
> CNN.com - FBI warns of mortgage fraud 'epidemic'  - Sep 17, 2004


It was caused by the government, turd.  Government forced banks to give mortgages to people who couldn't pay them.  

The facts are indisputable.


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 28, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Capitalism started both world wars of the 20th century*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You mean we never had wars before capitalism?  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .

  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .er, wait.  No, that's not right.


----------



## theHawk (Oct 28, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Finance capitalism is transforming US democracy into an oligarchy, something neither Trump nor Biden has any problem with.


President Trump was like a flashlight, he exposed our supposed “democracy” and showed everyone it’s an oligarch and Washington Establishment that runs everything.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 28, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Capitalists own every government on the planet.
> Every social and economic problem "government" gets blamed for stems from privatizing profits and socializing costs.*
> 
> Tallying Capitalism’s Death Toll
> ...



Did you ever find where capitalism killed 5 million from lack of drinking water?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 28, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Capitalists own every government on the planet.



Wasn't capitalism supposed to be replaced by now?
What happened to the workers of the world uniting and losing their chains?


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 29, 2021)

iamwhatiseem said:


> *Capitalism*... property is distributed by participation, and dependent on who does and who does not accept the risks of opportunity.
> *Marxism/Socialism*.... property is distributed, filtered more accurately, through elitist representatives who keep a large percentage of property for themselves, and whatever is left over given to the people.


Your definitions are suspect, to say the least.

Capitalism divides society into two highly unequal groups: owners and employers.
Owners represent a small minority of the total population, yet they decide what to produce, where to produce it, and how to distribute any surplus. The risks they assume are negligible when compared to the risks of homelessness, starvation, and death assumed by any employees who object to their dictatorial workplaces.

Socialism advocates a socially owned economy with particular emphasis on economic democracy, workplace democracy, and workers' self-management within either a market socialist economy or a form of decentralised planned socialist economy.



Democratic socialism - Wikipedia


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 29, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Under capitalism property is not distributed. It's earned.


You lie like...



Donald Trump received more than $400M from father through dubious tax dodges: NYT - National | Globalnews.ca


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 29, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Capitalism divides society into two highly unequal groups: owners and employers.



So what?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 29, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Owners represent a small minority of the total population, yet they decide what to produce, where to produce it, and how to distribute any surplus. The risks they assume are negligible



Sweet! You should have become an owner.
You wouldn't be such a whiney loser.


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 29, 2021)

iamwhatiseem said:


> Of course, but the word "Earn" is alien to liberals.
> It is not recognized.


*What do shareholders do to "earn" their economic rewards?*

The Divine Right of Capital by Marjorie Kelly

"Marjorie Kelly’s The Divine Right of Capital is one of those mind-bending books that deserves to be read by a large audience. 

"It tells a behind-the-scenes story of capitalism that we don’t often hear; one that shows *how our preoccupation with shareholder 'primacy'* distorts capitalism in ways that generate serious harm for society and the planet. 

"Kelly shows how our current problems with capitalism are not necessarily intrinsic to market forces or even capitalism itself, but to the particular version of it that we have today."


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 29, 2021)

struth said:


> nice propaganda…but the people weren’t eating their pets and zoo animals when it was run more capitalist


Capitalism has starved people to death for centuries.
Why aren't you complaining about that?





Capitalism threatens mass starvation


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 29, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "It tells a behind-the-scenes story of capitalism that we don’t often hear; one that shows *how our preoccupation with shareholder 'primacy'* distorts capitalism in ways that generate serious harm for society and the planet.



Exactly!!!

The government would do much better if it owned all the shares.
Just look how well that worked in the Soviet Union.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 29, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Capitalism has starved people to death for centuries.
> Why aren't you complaining about that?
> 
> 
> ...



What about when Communism let millions starve to death?


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 29, 2021)

dblack said:


> You're clearly on the wrong site. Here ya go: http://www.ussrmessageboard.com


"This site can't be reached"?


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 29, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> You lie like...
> 
> 
> 
> Donald Trump received more than $400M from father through dubious tax dodges: NYT - National | Globalnews.ca


Trump and his siblings inherited $35 million each.  You obviously believe that parents shouldn't be able to decide who gets their money when they die.  What a fucking Stalinist.


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 29, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Capitalism has starved people to death for centuries.
> Why aren't you complaining about that?
> 
> 
> ...


Capitalism has only been around for about 200 years, so how can that be true?


----------



## struth (Oct 29, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Capitalism has starved people to death for centuries.
> Why aren't you complaining about that?
> 
> 
> ...


hahaha Marxist.com is blaming natural disasters and locusts on capitalism? haha yeah…we call that leftist desperation 

in the real world we see socialism in NK, and capitalism just across the border in SK…night and day


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 29, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> I saw that the first time, now where did capitalism kill 5 million from lack of drinking water?


*Can you see this?*

Tallying Capitalism’s Death Toll

"The World Health Organization estimates that 3.575 million people die from lack of clean water, and that 1.5 million people die from vaccinable diseases every year. 

"Mercy Corps estimates that nine million people die from hunger every year. By summing these deaths, it can be concluded that capitalism kills approximately 14 million people per year.

"*Why is capitalism the culprit here?"*


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 29, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Don't you hate it when your hero, Stalin, teams up with Hitler?
> I'll bet Stalin felt like a real asshole when Hitler invaded, eh comra


I'll bet the only thing that kept you from kissing stalin's and Hitler's ass is an accident of birth, Bitch.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 29, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Can you see this?*
> 
> Tallying Capitalism’s Death Toll
> 
> ...



*Can you see this?*

I saw the evidence free claim, I want details.
Where did capitalism kill 5 million from lack of clean water?

*"Mercy Corps estimates that nine million people die from hunger every year.*

That's awful!! In which capitalist countries did capitalism starve these people?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 29, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> I'll bet the only thing that kept you from kissing stalin's and Hitler's ass is an accident of birth, Bitch.



Is Stalin in hell sucking Hitler's dick, or the other way around?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 29, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Can you see this?*
> 
> Tallying Capitalism’s Death Toll
> 
> ...



If the top 5 wealthiest business people gave only 10 percent of their net worth to ending world hunger, or only 3 percent to provide clean water everywhere on the planet, then these issues would be more than eradicated.












						A Look at the 10 Richest People in the World (Updated Dec. 2021)
					

Learn who the top 10 billionaires in the world are and how they built their wealth.




					www.investopedia.com
				




Looks like about $700 billion. 

$70 billion will end world hunger?

$21 billion will provide clean water all over the planet?

WTF aren't governments already doing that?
Why do they need to wait for the rich dudes?


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Can you see this?*
> 
> Tallying Capitalism’s Death Toll
> 
> ...


Yes, "Why is capitalism the culprit here?"  The countries where it happens aren't capitalist.  They are socialist shitholes


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> I'll bet the only thing that kept you from kissing stalin's and Hitler's ass is an accident of birth, Bitch.


You're kissing Stalin's ass right now, fuckstick.


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 30, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> How did you anyone conclude that capitalism was responsible? These people died mostly in Africa, where they don't have capitalism. They mostly have the kind of governments that you endorse.


*They mostly have governments controlled by western capitalists.*




"A brand new World Bank report, _The Changing Wealth of Nations 2018, _offers evidence of how much poorer Africa is becoming thanks to rampant minerals, oil and gas extraction. 

*"Yet Bank policies and practices remain oriented to enforcing foreign loan repayments and transnational corporate (TNC) profit repatriation, thus maintaining the looting."*

Africa: New evidence of ongoing corporate looting | Climate & Capitalism


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 30, 2021)

Natural Citizen said:


> Placing that aside, Keynesianism, which is precisely the kind of policy we have, is socialist. And eventually leads to fascism.


*You're entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts.
Keynes was a capitalist, not a socialist, and his economic policies were replaced by neoliberal economics in the 1980s; the blind worship of market forces favored by neoliberal proponents produces record levels of income inequality and leads directly to fascism*:

Keynesian Socialism

"Keynes was not a Socialist. 

"Nevertheless his economics have profound implications for Socialists. 

"Keynes showed that if Capitalism is to be successful, it has to be managed: the 'market', *if left to its own devices will breed great depressions and widespread impoverization. *

"But once it is determined that market capitalism needs to be well managed, the questions of how and for whom it is to be managed come to the fore."


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 30, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> What about wages in the financial sector?


What about them?


----------



## Orangecat (Oct 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf
> 
> "Capitalism and democracy follow different logics: unequally distributed property rights on the one hand, equal civic and political rights on the other; profit oriented trade within capitalism in contrast to the search for the common good within democracy; debate, compromise and majority decision-making within democratic politics versus hierarchical decision-making by managers and capital owners.
> 
> ...


Capitalism is an economic system and democracy is a political system. Comparing the two as if they are competing ideologies is the height of indoctrinated naivety.


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *They mostly have governments controlled by western capitalists.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...







How are western capitalists forcing 3rd world countries to adopt socialist policies?

How is mineral, oil and gas extraction making any country poorer?


----------



## danielpalos (Oct 30, 2021)

Government is socialism. 

_If liberty and equality are chiefly to be found in democracy, they will be best attained when all persons alike share in government to the utmost._--Aristotle


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 30, 2021)

struth said:


> as i stated capitalism allows for, and we have in this country collective ownership…most businesses in fact are owned by numerous people…all the ones on the stock exchange are for example


Collective ownership of enterprises where a small minority of individuals decide what to produce, where to produce it, and how to distribute the surplus. The richest ten percent of investors control over 80% of the stock market, and those shareholders contribute absolutely nothing to the success of the business.


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 30, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> Government is socialism.
> 
> _If liberty and equality are chiefly to be found in democracy, they will be best attained when all persons alike share in government to the utmost._--Aristotle


The first sentence is correct, but how does it reflect positively on either government nor socialism?  Both are founded on coercion.


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Collective ownership of enterprises where a small minority of individuals decide what to produce, where to produce it, and how to distribute the surplus. The richest ten percent of investors control over 80% of the stock market, and those shareholders contribute absolutely nothing to the success of the business.



Any successful business is always run be a competent few.   Allowing morons like you to have a say in how a business is run is the road to bankruptcy.


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 30, 2021)

struth said:


> Govts worship profits as well…without it they go under…look at all the Socialist countries that have failed for lack of it


What profit does government earn from police and fire departments or public libraries? Would you prefer to commute on public or private toll roads? Government works best when it functions as a fourth factor of production designed to lower the cost of living and doing business.

Error - Cookies Turned Off


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 30, 2021)

dblack said:


> Damned employees won't work unless you pay them! Greedy bastards obsessed with profit. Always trying to get raises and bonuses. Why can't they be like george and work for minimum wage?


In case you haven't noticed (or don't care), Finance is strangling the productive economy in ever-tightening coils of debt.




https://www.researchgate.net/figure...-wages-in-the-financial-sector_fig3_271524067


----------



## danielpalos (Oct 30, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> The first sentence is correct, but how does it reflect positively on either government nor socialism?  Both are founded on coercion.


It is about liberty and equality.  



> That government is, or ought to be, instituted for the common benefit, protection, and security of the people, nation, or community; of all the various modes and forms of government, that is best which is capable of producing the greatest degree of happiness and safety, and is most effectually secured against the danger of maladministration; and, whenever any government shall be found inadequate or contrary to these purposes, a majority of the community hath an indubitable, inalienable, and indefeasible right to reform, alter, or abolish it, in such manner as shall be judged most conducive to the public weal.


----------



## Natural Citizen (Oct 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *You're entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts.
> Keynes was a capitalist, not a socialist, and his economic policies were replaced by neoliberal economics in the 1980s; the blind worship of market forces favored by neoliberal proponents produces record levels of income inequality and leads directly to fascism*:
> 
> Keynesian Socialism
> ...



It's actually the followers of Keynes who cause the most problems. They're far worse than John Maynard himself ever was.

Is it worth my time explaining again? Probably not.

I'm content to see the entire system implode on itself. And it will. As I said, it's designed to fail. Some will be prepared. Others will not.

Good luck with your socialist utopia that follows. It, too, will fail. History is rife with example.

Personally I'm a proponent of free-markets.


----------



## struth (Oct 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> What profit does government earn from police and fire departments or public libraries? Would you prefer to commute on public or private toll roads? Government works best when it functions as a fourth factor of production designed to lower the cost of living and doing business.
> 
> Error - Cookies Turned Off


i didn’t say they profited off them…they make money by taking it by force from citizens 

as far as roads, the govt operates tolls as well…by the way


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> What profit does government earn from police and fire departments or public libraries? Would you prefer to commute on public or private toll roads? Government works best when it functions as a fourth factor of production designed to lower the cost of living and doing business.
> 
> Error - Cookies Turned Off


Government doesn't function at all.  All the people who work in government have the best possible benefits, make good money, and they don't have to work hard.  Government produces nothing.   It only consumes.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> enforcing foreign loan repayments and transnational corporate (TNC) profit repatriation



Wait, banks expect loans to be repaid????

Outrageous!!

Corporations want to take their profits home???

Why is this still allowed? 

DURR


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> What about them?



You're whining about profits.

Plenty of people earn wages in the financial sector.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> and those shareholders contribute absolutely nothing to the success of the business.



They own it. You don't own shit and you contribute even less.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> In case you haven't noticed (or don't care), Finance is strangling the productive economy in ever-tightening coils of debt.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



High wages?????

That's awful, eh comrade?


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> In case you haven't noticed (or don't care), Finance is strangling the productive economy in ever-tightening coils of debt.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What the hell is "excess wage?"


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 30, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> What the hell is "excess wage?"



Is that when anyone, anywhere makes more than george?


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 30, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> It is about liberty and equality.


Equality is the opposite of liberty.


----------



## danielpalos (Oct 30, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Equality is the opposite of liberty.


Not according to Aristotle.  

If liberty and equality are chiefly to be found in democracy, they will be best attained when all persons alike share in government to the utmost.--Aristotle


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 31, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> democracies hate free speech and why we are a constitutional republic,,


*A democracy can't exist without free speech.*




Freedom of speech - Wikipedia

"Freedom of speech is understood to be fundamental in a democracy..." 

"One of the most notable proponents of the link between freedom of speech and democracy is Alexander Meiklejohn. 

"He has argued that the concept of democracy is that of self-government by the people. 

"For such a system to work, an informed electorate is necessary. In order to be appropriately knowledgeable, there must be no constraints on the free flow of information and ideas."

*Why are you afraid of an informed electorate?*


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 31, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *A democracy can't exist without free speech.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Progs are opposed to free speech, moron.  They call it "hate speech."  They believe people shouldn't be allowed to publish "racist" speech or the leftwing received wisdom on climate change or Covid.

Who are you trying to kid?


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 31, 2021)

struth said:


> the public makes the decisions…they are the customers. They are the ones rhe determine what they want to buy


The public had nothing to say about capitalism's decision to send millions of middle-class US jobs out of the country over the past 40 years. 

Over the course of the Covid crisis, half of US workers were laid off yet Wall Street goes UP by 50%. 

The Federal Reserve pumped $4 trillion into Wall Street (20% of US GDP); what input did the public have on that decision. 

*Where would capitalism be today without that subsidy?*

Stop Subsidizing Wall St., Start Subsidizing Workers for High Energy Costs - Bob Pollin


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 31, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The public had nothing to say about capitalism's decision to send millions of middle-class US jobs out of the country over the past 40 years.
> 
> Over the course of the Covid crisis, half of US workers were laid off yet Wall Street goes UP by 50%.
> 
> ...


That wasn't capitalism's decision.  It was a Democrat decision.


----------



## struth (Oct 31, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The public had nothing to say about capitalism's decision to send millions of middle-class US jobs out of the country over the past 40 years.
> 
> Over the course of the Covid crisis, half of US workers were laid off yet Wall Street goes UP by 50%.
> 
> ...


hahah of course they did 

1) they elected the people that created policies that made it more advantageous for businesses to do that.  Moreover, they bought the products and demanded higher labor cost, but lower prices 
2) that’s no surprise, Cuomo and Newsom shut down the businesses on Main Street…not the Amazons on the world that are publicly traded 

Just because people are laid off, doesn’t mean people are buying and selling stocks and investing in the market…likely actually a good time to look at your investments when you are laid off.  While Newsom can shut a bakery down, and Fin Advisor he can’t.  They still have clients they owe a duty to, and they can work from home


----------



## danielpalos (Oct 31, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The public had nothing to say about capitalism's decision to send millions of middle-class US jobs out of the country over the past 40 years.
> 
> Over the course of the Covid crisis, half of US workers were laid off yet Wall Street goes UP by 50%.
> 
> ...


We could have solved simple poverty on an at-will basis in our at-will employment States, yesterday but for the right-wing having a problem that the Poor may benefit under our form of Capitalism.


----------



## progressive hunter (Oct 31, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *A democracy can't exist without free speech.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


thats funny,,
I am on another thread right now with a moron with TDS saying trump needs to be silenced,,


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 31, 2021)

dblack said:


> And it's a stupid goal to begin with. Society has far more control over the economy via the market, than they would with ubiquitous democracy, where only the interests of the majority prevail.


*Your childish faith in "the market" apparently blinds you to the fact the richest participants use government to control every market they enter:

The logical solution is to use government to decrease the power of oligarchs.*

Stop Subsidizing Wall St., Start Subsidizing Workers for High Energy Costs - Bob Pollin

"Wall Street is massively subsidized beyond people’s belief. 

"The fossil fuel companies are massively subsidized right now. 

"And those are the things that once we factor those in and our understanding of those, that’s how you can, and it’s the only way that you can explain the fact that when we had the COVID crisis, *half of the U.S. workforce was laid off over the course of 12 months and were getting unemployment insurance. 

"At the same time, Wall Street goes up by 50%. *

"Never happened. 

"Nothing like that has ever happened."

*Do you believe a majority of US voters believe Wall Street speculators should profit when 50% of productive Americans go on unemployment insurance?*


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 31, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Nothing is stopping workers from forming their own collective enterprises, moron. If that form of management is so superior, then why aren't worker collectives taking over the economy?


Because government subsidizes top-down capitalism like what's seen on Wall Street and fossil fuels while refusing to extend the same entitlement to worker self-directed enterprises. The solution is to replace 90% of congress who form the best government money can buy.


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 31, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Because government subsidizes top-down capitalism like what's seen on Wall Street and fossil fuels while refusing to extend the same entitlement to worker self-directed enterprises. The solution is to replace 90% of congress who form the best government money can buy.


Utter horsesit.  You believe worker managed enterprises don't use fossil fuels?

More proof that you're an idiot.


----------



## dblack (Oct 31, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Your childish faith in "the market" apparently blinds you to the fact the richest participants use government to control every market they enter:


I have zero "faith" in the market. I just prefer freedom. Plus I think trying to run an economy "democratically" is fucking stupid. We don't need to apply your precious majority rule to every goddamned thing.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 31, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "The fossil fuel companies are massively subsidized right now.



Liar.


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 31, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> by invoking Chomsky you've shown the truth depth of your idiocy.


"You can't have meaningful political democracy without functioning economic democracy."


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 31, 2021)

elektra said:


> says the man that got rich off of capitalism in our Republic, in our great country of liberty
> chomsky is an asshole


*Why do you hate smart Jews?*

Noam Chomsky Net Worth

*"Noam Chomsky Net Worth:* Noam Chomsky is an American philosopher, scientist, activist, and linguist who has a net worth of $5 million. Born Avram Noam Chomsky in 1928 in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, Noam Chomsky is considered to be the Father of Modern Linguistics. Chomsky was fascinated by international relations and politics from a young age and began studying at the University of Pennsylvania, earning his undergrad and graduate degrees."


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 31, 2021)

dblack said:


> Currency that isn't controlled by government is the goal. To the extent that crypto is able to accomplish that, it's definitely an improvement.


*Are you anxious for corporate script?*

What Do Other Leftists Think About Blockchain? - The Blockchain Socialist

"The interviewer asks Wolff if he thinks that blockchain would be useful and his thoughts on cryptocurrency. 

"Wolff thinks blockchain could be useful but is very against cryptocurrency because he sees it as a tool for companies to get around regulations and lead to *a repeat of the disjointed 1800s American banking system where each state bank distributed its own currency (called scrip)* but instead the multinational companies of today."


----------



## elektra (Oct 31, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Why do you hate smart Jews?*
> 
> Noam Chomsky Net Worth
> 
> *"Noam Chomsky Net Worth:* Noam Chomsky is an American philosopher, scientist, activist, and linguist who has a net worth of $5 million. Born Avram Noam Chomsky in 1928 in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, Noam Chomsky is considered to be the Father of Modern Linguistics. Chomsky was fascinated by international relations and politics from a young age and began studying at the University of Pennsylvania, earning his undergrad and graduate degrees."


Why are you low life fucking worm who acts as a bigot putting words in my mouth that I did not state. 
You post all kinds of crap and then you post a little shit turd like this that shows everyone who you are exactly. I never said I hated smart Jews but you label me as such. Just like a lousy bigot. 

georgephillip, the bigot, bigotry and stereotyping goes hand in hand, calling other's hateful points the finger at yourself georeethelip.

bigots suck as georgethelip accuse others of hate, when it is them that hate, bigots make assumptions and base their opinions on their own prejudices which is what georgthelip does. bigoty and stereotype and hating people and lying about what they say, that is what the democrats did when they were the kkk. Human nature does not change.

georgethelip likes people to hate himself, that way georgy can be the victim and call everyone hateful. gorgethelip makes this posts cause he loves to hate and play the victim. 

what a piece of shit worm, 

chomsky is commie rat that hates america, chomsky's words and writings states that without the bullshit of his defenders


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 31, 2021)

dblack said:


> China just banned crypto, because they can't control it.


Maybe China knows something you don't?


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 31, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Wrong, asshole. Changing the definition of slavery will not make your idiocies sound any more plausible.


Wage slavery describes a situation where a person's livelihood depends upon wages or salary, i.e., work for whatever your owner decides to pay you or starve.


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 31, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> The main reason I voted for Trump is that he's not Biden. The investigations into Trump are all politically motivated. They prove nothing except that Dims are unscrupulous scum.


*Trump was a life-long unscrupulous Democrat before deciding to run for POTUS. His entire life has been marked by corruption and scandal. His presidency was the most corrupt in US History, so naturally you support him.*

President Trump’s legacy of corruption, four years and 3,700 conflicts of interest later - CREW | Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington

"Next week marks the end of Donald Trump’s term as President. In his wake, he will leave behind a legacy of profound corruption and egregious conflicts of interest, the repercussions of which will echo for years after he is gone. 

"In the last four years, Trump has flouted all kinds of norms set by previous presidents, *starting with his decision not to divest from his business interests while in office, *setting the stage for what became an administration marked by placing self-interest and profiteering at the highest levels above the public interest and culminated in a deadly insurrection that was rooted in the same self-serving ethos."


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 31, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> How does that prove that capitalism created slavery? Here's a clue for you, moron: it didn't


Slavery created capitalism.
Dunce.


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 31, 2021)

struth said:


> the issue is the corrupt politician like xiden taking the money. i can’t get all that worked up over a person knowing they can get what they want because the dembots were dumb enough to put a corrupt person, with a near half century of public corruption in office


Anyone gullible enough to vote for the most corrupt POTUS in US History really shouldn't complain about Biden's crime family.

President Trump’s legacy of corruption, four years and 3,700 conflicts of interest later - CREW | Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington


----------



## struth (Oct 31, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Anyone gullible enough to vote for the most corrupt POTUS in US History really shouldn't complain about Biden's crime family.
> 
> President Trump’s legacy of corruption, four years and 3,700 conflicts of interest later - CREW | Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington


i didn’t vote for the clintons


----------



## georgephillip (Oct 31, 2021)

Sinajuavi said:


> Few today realize that the ports of Rhode Island were hubs for slave ships. Ships from RI transported a lot of the slaves who reached the Caribbean. In the 13 colonies, only Charleston SC was a bigger slave port.


*During its early development many believed capitalism made things better:
Treating human labor as a commodity may have complicated the process?*

https://www.khanacademy.org/humanit...tems-betaa/a/read-slavery-and-capitalism-beta

"Between about the fifteenth and the eighteenth centuries, networks of production and distribution became larger and more complex than ever before. 

"Maritime empires and large corporations like the Dutch East India Company helped to spread practices like bonds and joint-stock companies. 

"This set the stage for the modern economic system of capitalism. 

"The proponents of capitalism believed that free markets in goods and labor and the ability to invest money for profit would make the world a better place."


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Oct 31, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "The proponents of capitalism believed that free markets in goods and labor and the ability to invest money for profit would make the world a better place."



Did a better job than communism, eh comrade?


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 31, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "You can't have meaningful political democracy without functioning economic democracy."


"Economic democracy is another term for communisms."  It can't possibly work.

What's so great about democracy?


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 31, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *During its early development many believed capitalism made things better:
> Treating human labor as a commodity may have complicated the process?*
> 
> READ: Capitalism and Slavery (article) | Khan Academy
> ...


It did, turd.


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 31, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Anyone gullible enough to vote for the most corrupt POTUS in US History really shouldn't complain about Biden's crime family.
> 
> President Trump’s legacy of corruption, four years and 3,700 conflicts of interest later - CREW | Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington


Biden is the most corrupt POTUS in history, moron.


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 31, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Slavery created capitalism.
> Dunce.


Wrong again, moron.


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 31, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Trump was a life-long unscrupulous Democrat before deciding to run for POTUS. His entire life has been marked by corruption and scandal. His presidency was the most corrupt in US History, so naturally you support him.*
> 
> President Trump’s legacy of corruption, four years and 3,700 conflicts of interest later - CREW | Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington
> 
> ...


CREW is a Soros created commie propaganda operation.


----------



## bripat9643 (Oct 31, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Wage slavery describes a situation where a person's livelihood depends upon wages or salary, i.e., work for whatever your owner decides to pay you or starve.


Your free to go elsewhere if you don't like what you're paid.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 1, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> By the way, shit for brains, slavery laws are regulations. Slavery and capitalism are mutually exclusive.


Slavery and capitalism are blood relatives:

Master/slave
Lord/serf
Owner/employee




"The Sacred Texts. The Principle of Worldview.​"In the worldview of corporate financial statements, the aim is to pay stockholders as much as possible, and employees as little as possible."


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 1, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Slavery and capitalism are blood relatives:
> 
> Master/slave
> Lord/serf
> ...


You mean socialism and slavery are blood relatives.


----------



## struth (Nov 1, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Slavery and capitalism are blood relatives:
> 
> Master/slave
> Lord/serf
> ...


um.....serfs and slaves aren't free and don't own anything....in Capitalism it's just the opposite...employees are free, and get paid, they own their wages, and a free to do what they want with them.

In socialism, much like slavery, and serfdom, employees don't own anything....they aren't free.


----------



## dblack (Nov 1, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Maybe China knows something you don't?


Indeed. They know how to run a totalitarian government properly! You must be jealous.


----------



## dblack (Nov 1, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Are you anxious for corporate script?


That's more or less what we have now.


georgephillip said:


> What Do Other Leftists Think About Blockchain? - The Blockchain Socialist


LOL- Bitcoin removes state control of the currency for the authoritarian's toolbox. Of course leftists hate it.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 1, 2021)

rupol2000 said:


> Reagan is a political genius, a great president under whom America really was great


*Reagan's "Big Lie" was trickle-down economics.
The last forty years should have shown everyone how well that worked out for 99% of Americans:*




The 40-year con of trickle-down Reaganomics: Why Republican's toxic class warfare only spreads poverty | The Milwaukee Independent

"The core idea of Reaganomics is that if we give huge tax cuts and multi-billion-dollar subsidies to billionaires and giant corporations, that will 'incentivize' these “job creators” to expand the economy and raise prosperity all around for everybody..."

"A recent study from the London School of Economics has now totally debunked the Reaganomics notion that tax-cuts for rich people incentivize them to 'create jobs' or lead to economic growth. 

*"In fact, such tax cuts only serve one single purpose: to move more of a nation’s income and wealth from the bottom 99% up into the money bins of the morbidly rich."*


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 1, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Reagan's "Big Lie" was trickle-down economics.
> The last forty years should have shown everyone how well that worked out for 99% of Americans:*
> 
> 
> ...



Supply-side economics.......works every time it's tried.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 1, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Reagan's "Big Lie" was trickle-down economics.
> The last forty years should have shown everyone how well that worked out for 99% of Americans:*
> 
> 
> ...


Reagan never used the term "trickle down," jackass.  Your description of Reagan's policy is a flat out lie.

The London school of Economics is a propaganda organ, and nothing more.  They have shown nothing of the kind.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 1, 2021)

rupol2000 said:


> All your economic fictions are childish. You have no idea how finance works, and the bubbles just began to inflate later, starting with the dot-com bubble.
> The dollar is the world's reserve currency, its inflation does not depend on the US economy


Finance capitalism works by extracting wealth from the productive economy. Workers and businesses are strangled by debt while bankers and bondholders focus on short-term (3 months) profit margins while ignoring externalities like income inequality and climate crisis.




America’s Path To A FIRE Economy


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 1, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Finance capitalism works by extracting wealth from the productive economy. Workers and businesses are strangled by debt while bankers and bondholders focus on short-term (3 months) profit margins while ignoring externalities like income inequality and climate crisis.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Neither of which qualify as "externalities."


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 1, 2021)

rupol2000 said:


> Roughly speaking, without going into details, the dollar depreciates when the United States is in the shit  and ceases to be a global autority ority, as is now happening when the left has seized power and purposefully destroys the United States.


The last time anything remotely resembling leftists seized power in the US was 1932 after conservative Republicans crashed the global economy. The left saved capitalism and democracy, and rich fascists then spent the next 50 years planning their revenge.




1980 United States presidential election - Wikipedia


----------



## dblack (Nov 1, 2021)




----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 1, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Finance capitalism works by extracting wealth from the productive economy.



Extracting? How?


----------



## dblack (Nov 1, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Extracting? How?


Profit!!!!


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 2, 2021)

struth said:


> slavery existed long before the united states existed. Long before Adam Smith wrote Wealth of Nations…


Which doesn't alter the fact US capitalism was built on chattel slavery and hundreds of thousands Americans died to end that particular economic "Lost Cause".





Lost Cause of the Confederacy - Wikipedia


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 2, 2021)

struth said:


> eftist theory, such as socialism, promotes slavery. The fact that an individual has no ability to own anything, the product of their labor…is slavery


Socialism depends on economic democracy.
Capitalism depends on authoritarianism.
You can't have political democracy with bringing democracy to the workplaces.




Economic Democracy


----------



## struth (Nov 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Which doesn't alter the fact US capitalism was built on chattel slavery and hundreds of thousands Americans died to end that particular economic "Lost Cause".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think it's clear that the US was built on slavery, a practice that we took from other countries at the time, it's our orginial sin.....but it was capitalism that helped end slavery.   Slavery runs counter to the princpals of capitlalism.  



			https://web.stanford.edu/group/mcnollgast/cgi-bin/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/asms-theory-of-sy.15.0725.print-version.pdf


----------



## struth (Nov 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Socialism depends on economic democracy.
> Capitalism depends on authoritarianism.
> You can't have political democracy with bringing democracy to the workplaces.
> 
> ...


hahha the opposite is true.

There is no democracy in socialism...people own nothing and make no choices....the Govt does

Captalism is the opposite.  People are free to make choices, not the Govt.  You dont like the quality of cheese produced by Company X, don't buy it...that's your vote...demand better, eitehr they produce better, or go out of business.  In Socialism, you are stuck only with Govt cheese.  Socialism makes the population a slave.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Finance capitalism works by extracting wealth from the productive economy.



Extracting? How?

Still no answer? Maybe a Marxist (DURR) economist can help you?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 2, 2021)

struth said:


> Capitalism promotes private, individual, ownership…the ability to make choice, that’s the opposite of slavery


Capitalism has a pair of deadly flaws: it relentlessly widens income/wealth inequality and it destroys nature. Both maladies are, at root, problems of property rights and must be addressed at that level which won't happen by "choosing" between Republican or Democrat in the voting booth.

Capitalism's Core Problem: The Case for Universal Property


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 2, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> _If liberty and equality are chiefly to be found in democracy, they will be best attained when all persons alike share in government to the utmost._--Aristotle







I don't know if a majority of Americans are willing to consider the possibility that private fortunes do not exist without warfare and debt, but maybe they should.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 2, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Where did capitalism kill 5 million from lack of drinking water?


For Third World, Water Is Still a Deadly Drink (Published 1997)


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 2, 2021)

elektra said:


> without capitalism you are still working for the king, on the king's land. Equality means nothing in the King's kingdom.
> 
> Destroys nature? Now you are simply talking out your ass.


Do corporate CEOs and small business owners function more like monarchs or duly elected democratic leaders? Twenty-first century socialism is modeled more on the Mondragon corporation than on USSR state capitalism.




BOOKS / Carl Davidson : The Mondragon Cooperatives and 21st Century Socialism


----------



## struth (Nov 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Capitalism has a pair of deadly flaws: it relentlessly widens income/wealth inequality and it destroys nature. Both maladies are, at root, problems of property rights and must be addressed at that level which won't happen by "choosing" between Republican or Democrat in the voting booth.
> 
> Capitalism's Core Problem: The Case for Universal Property


haha socialism does those things far worse

look at the environment created in the USSR and New Korea

Capitalism, private ownership, solves for the flaw of the commons because individuals care about keep their property clean 

as far as the wealth gap..yea it will happen…the alternative is socialism where there is no wealth, everyone is poor and slaves to the state who owns it all.  The only rich people are the party leaders in Moscow


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> For Third World, Water Is Still a Deadly Drink (Published 1997)



I don't have a subscription.
Cut and paste the portion that supports your claim.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Do corporate CEOs and small business owners function more like monarchs or duly elected democratic leaders? Twenty-first century socialism is modeled more on the Mondragon corporation than on USSR state capitalism.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Do corporate CEOs and small business owners function more like monarchs or duly elected democratic leaders?*

Why do I need an elected leader for a business that I own?


----------



## struth (Nov 2, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> I don't have a subscription.
> Cut and paste the portion that supports your claim.


ironically it’s not a problem for counties that have adopted a capitalist system…but capitalist is helping, shipping in bottle water from private companies


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 2, 2021)

elektra said:


> Destroys nature? Now you are simply talking out your ass.


*Capitalism poisons the planet for profit by plundering global resources, worsening pollution, and magnifies "natural disasters" It has already created an existential threat to human civilization we have never seen before. *

Capitalism's Core Problem: The Case for Universal Property

"They found that natural ecosystems generate a global flow of benefits — including fresh water supply, soil formation, nutrient cycling, waste treatment, pollination, raw materials and climate regulation — worth between $25 trillion and $87 trillion a year. 

"That compares with a gross world product of about $80 trillion.  

"These calculations are precise enough to suggest that we are greatly confused about where our wealth today comes from.  

"We think it comes from the fevered efforts of today’s businesses and workers, but in fact they merely add icing to a cake that was baked long ago."


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 2, 2021)

elektra said:


> Government is what destroys capitalism, and what man creates for himself. My work is my property, my labor is not the property of government, which is what you advocate.


Since government charters corporations and corporations drive the global economy, capitalism would not even exist in its current incarnation without the state. 

Your property rights would be considerably more expensive to defend without government providing courts, police, and fire services.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 2, 2021)

elektra said:


> Consequences, how about getting off you high horse and quit looking down your nose at the people you are no better than. You can be a man and state what you believe the consequences to be, instead of talking like you sit at the right hand of the king.


*If I've given you the impression that I would do anything except cut off the right hand of the king, I apologize. I see today's world as a continuation of the Divine Right of Kings, and I have no intention of supporting our current (corporate) lords and masters:*

The Divine Right of Capital by Marjorie Kelly

"All societies have world views, *the 'unconscious mental habits' we use to make sense of the world* – so deep, so pervasive as to be invisible. 

"Aristocratic society in feudal times based its membership on property ownership. Back then, it was land. *Today it’s wealth, or financial assets..."*

Today, our worldview has a bias – that stockholders are to be paid as much as possible, while employees are to be paid as little as possible. 'Income for one group is declared good, and income for another group is declared bad.'"


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 2, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> If you have no skills, why should you enjoy equality?







From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs - Wikipedia

"The principle refers to free access to and distribution of goods, capital and services.[3] 

"In the Marxist view, such an arrangement will be made possible by the abundance of goods and services that a developed communist system will be capable to produce; the idea is that, with the full development of socialism and unfettered productive forces, there will be enough to satisfy everyone's needs."


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 2, 2021)

struth said:


> haha socialism does those things far worse
> 
> look at the environment created in the USSR and New Korea
> 
> ...


Not at all.  In our US case, socialism is about equality and equal protection of the laws. 

_The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States._


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs - Wikipedia
> 
> "The principle refers to free access to and distribution of goods, capital and services.[3]
> 
> "In the Marxist view, such an arrangement will be made possible by the abundance of goods and services that a developed communist system will be capable to produce; the idea is that, with the full development of socialism and unfettered productive forces, there will be enough to satisfy everyone's needs."



From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs​
That really worked out for the Soviet Union, eh?

*"In the Marxist view, such an arrangement will be made possible by the abundance of goods and services that a developed communist system will be capable to produce*

But they never do produce that abundance.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 2, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs​
> That really worked out for the Soviet Union, eh?
> 
> *"In the Marxist view, such an arrangement will be made possible by the abundance of goods and services that a developed communist system will be capable to produce*
> ...


Why do you believe we prefer capitalism?  Socialism requires social morals for free not capital morals for a market friendly price.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 2, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> Why do you believe we prefer capitalism?  Socialism requires social morals for free not capital morals for a market friendly price.



Dude!!


----------



## struth (Nov 2, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> Not at all.  In our US case, socialism is about equality and equal protection of the laws.
> 
> _The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States._


haha yeah that’s not what happens in socialism 

in fact you quoted a document, that supports capitalism


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 2, 2021)

struth said:


> haha yeah that’s not what happens in socialism
> 
> in fact you quoted a document, that supports capitalism


By using socialism. 

_To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;_


----------



## struth (Nov 2, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> By using socialism.
> 
> _To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;_


huh? regulating things, creating laws. is not socialism dumbass

capitalism does at any point say there can t be laws, it does not support anarchism


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 2, 2021)

struth said:


> huh? regulating things, creating laws. is not socialism dumbass
> 
> capitalism does at any point say there can t be laws, it does not support anarchism


Yes, it is.  You simply are a right-winger and prove it with your responses.


----------



## struth (Nov 2, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> Yes, it is.  You simply are a right-winger and prove it with your responses.


haha i’m not quite sure where you are getting your information 

socialism is the collective or govt ownership over the means of production.  Regulating trade, is not socialism.

Our founders believed in private ownership over the means of production…encouraged it, and protected it


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 2, 2021)

struth said:


> haha i’m not quite sure where you are getting your information
> 
> socialism is the collective or govt ownership over the means of production.  Regulating trade, is not socialism.
> 
> Our founders believed in private ownership over the means of production…encouraged it, and protected it


lol.  Simply using the Other Peoples' tax money is socialism.


----------



## struth (Nov 2, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> lol.  Simply using the Other Peoples' tax money is socialism.


not by any actual definition


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 3, 2021)

elektra said:


> you could not lay down more bullshit based on complete ignorance if you tried. The problem for the poor in the favelas of niteroi is fixing the damage of capitalism? Hell, they aint seen nothing but a repressive government supplemented by murderous drug gangs.


Organized crime is capitalist in nature since criminals largely pursue self-interest instead of public duty. 

Capitalism also generates massive economic inequality and poverty which translate into higher crime rates. 

There is no better example of a "dog-eat-dog society" than drug cartels (or Big Pharma) which ruthlessly pursue bigger and bigger PRIVATE profits at the expense of society as a whole.





The Marxist Perspective on Crime


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 3, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Nope. Only a fucking NAZI douchebag would look the other way when a politician extorts money from a corporation to give to his political allies. Apparently you endorse such activities.


Since I don't endorse corrupt crony-capitalists or their useful political idiots, I didn't support Trump or Biden; what about you?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 3, 2021)

dblack said:


> How many irrelevant dodges can you come up with?


Not as many as you, obviously.
How many forms of government are there in your world?


----------



## struth (Nov 3, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Organized crime is capitalist in nature since criminals largely pursue self-interest instead of public duty.
> 
> Capitalism also generates massive economic inequality and poverty which translate into higher crime rates.
> 
> ...


Organizaed Crime is captialist that's for sure. 

They have a board of directors, where votes are taken....etc...they just sell products and services that are illegal.   It really got it's boom when the Govt stepped it and over regulated the booze businesses....so at the end of the day, blame Govt overreach


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 3, 2021)

struth said:


> not by any actual definition


_The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other peoples' money._

Margaret Thatcher


----------



## struth (Nov 3, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> _The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other peoples' money._
> 
> Margaret Thatcher


she's so right...and history has proven that to be the case.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 3, 2021)

It is why the more social left needs to merely learn how to use Capitalism for _all_ of its capital worth in modern times.


----------



## struth (Nov 3, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> It is why the more social left needs to merely learn how to use Capitalism for _all_ of its capital worth in modern times.


yea, socialist need to learn to be capitalist....then they wouldn't be socialist....and then they'd gain freedom, wealth, and opportunity.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 3, 2021)

struth said:


> yea, socialist need to learn to be capitalist....then they wouldn't be socialist....and then they'd gain freedom, wealth, and opportunity.


Learning how to merely Use capitalism for _all_ of its capital worth could be social.


----------



## dblack (Nov 3, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Not as many as you, obviously.
> How many forms of government are there in your world?


5


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 3, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Organized crime is capitalist in nature since criminals largely pursue self-interest instead of public duty.
> 
> Capitalism also generates massive economic inequality and poverty which translate into higher crime rates.
> 
> ...



Creating life saving drugs while making a profit......just terrible.

No drugs and no profit is much better, eh?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 3, 2021)

kaz said:


> ust FYI, the top 1% earn about 20% of income, blowing your talking points out of the water on that. Yes, their taxes are extremely high.


In fact, they're not.
Rich parasites paid 90% of their marginal income in taxes will into the Eisenhower administration, and that doesn't begin to account for today's top economic scum who live by the maxim "Buy, Borrow, Die"


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 3, 2021)

kaz said:


> The IRS. The top 20% pay virtually all taxes


They pay virtually all INCOME taxes.
Poor and middle-class workers pay a far greater percentage of their income in ALL forms of taxes.




Dems Somehow Pretend This Mostly Helps The Middle Class


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 3, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Economic systems, like capitalism, socialism, and communism, are not systems of government, but choices as to how government revenue should be spent.


Possibly it's more useful to think in terms of political economy which seek to study the relations between production and trade with the law and government? 

As someone who grew up during the Cold War I was brainwashed into believing socialism required government ownership of the means of production which isn't all that different from capitalism's belief that a small rich minority of society should decide what to make, where to make it, and how to distribute any surplus.

One point I'm trying to make in this thread is neither USSR type socialism of US style capitalism is based on economic democracy:



Table 4 : Range of Economic Democracy Profits


----------



## dblack (Nov 3, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> In fact, they're not.
> Rich parasites paid 90% of their marginal income in taxes will into the Eisenhower administration, and that doesn't begin to account for today's top economic scum who live


In fact, they didn't. I'd wager that no one, ever, actually paid anything close to 90% of their income in taxes. That was populist horseshit to satiate ignorant socialists.









						Taxes on the Rich Were Not That Much Higher in the 1950s
					

Despite high marginal income tax rates, the top 1% of taxpayers in the 1950s only paid about 42% of their income in taxes. See more about taxes on the rich.




					taxfoundation.org


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 3, 2021)

TeeDub said:


> It must suck to be you, loser.


Can you spot the winners?




The Pandemic and Capitalism


----------



## kaz (Nov 3, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> In fact, they're not.
> Rich parasites paid 90% of their marginal income in taxes will into the Eisenhower administration, and that doesn't begin to account for today's top economic scum who live by the maxim "Buy, Borrow, Die"



I cited IRS STATISTICS you stupid lying fuck.  Stop making up shit.  And I was talking about today, not the Eisenhower administration


----------



## kaz (Nov 3, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> They pay virtually all INCOME taxes.
> Poor and middle-class workers pay a far greater percentage of their income in ALL forms of taxes.
> 
> 
> ...



Wow, people who don't pay taxes got the smallest part of a tax cut.    I mean duh, think about it.   THEY DON'T PAY TAXES.   And yet you want  them to get the most back.   You're a fucking moron


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 3, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> It is why equality matters.
> 
> _The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States._


*Very little scares conservatives more than equality of opportunity:*

Political Economy

"1. Liberalism​"The liberal ideology stems from the concept of labor and exchange and the use of land, labor, and capital to produce durable goods. Liberal economists believe that economics can benefit everyone and that society can progress with the improvement in the standard of living.

"They think that the wants of the community rather than of individuals are most important for decision-making. *They also believe in equal opportunity for everyone and are concerned with the structure of civil society."*


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 3, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Very little scares conservatives more than equality of opportunity:*
> 
> Political Economy
> 
> ...


Is that why our Founding Fathers gave us a Constitution?


----------



## elektra (Nov 3, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Organized crime is capitalist in nature since criminals largely pursue self-interest instead of public duty.
> 
> Capitalism also generates massive economic inequality and poverty which translate into higher crime rates.
> 
> ...


Organized crime existed long before capitalism. Georgie can't get anything right.. I swear to God, you say stupid bullshit simply for attention.


----------



## elektra (Nov 3, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *If I've given you the impression that I would do anything except cut off the right hand of the king, I apologize. I see today's world as a continuation of the Divine Right of Kings, and I have no intention of supporting our current (corporate) lords and masters:*
> 
> The Divine Right of Capital by Marjorie Kelly
> 
> ...


You won't support our current, society? You are full of shit and now delusional. Seriously, you are an idiot


----------



## elektra (Nov 3, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Since government charters corporations and corporations drive the global economy, capitalism would not even exist in its current incarnation without the state.
> 
> Your property rights would be considerably more expensive to defend without government providing courts, police, and fire services.


Yea, it is called the constitution of our republic.


----------



## elektra (Nov 3, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Do corporate CEOs and small business owners function more like monarchs or duly elected democratic leaders? Twenty-first century socialism is modeled more on the Mondragon corporation than on USSR state capitalism.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Moron!


----------



## elektra (Nov 3, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Capitalism poisons the planet for profit by plundering global resources, worsening pollution, and magnifies "natural disasters" It has already created an existential threat to human civilization we have never seen before. *
> 
> Capitalism's Core Problem: The Case for Universal Property
> 
> ...


Moron, is the only logical reply to anything you post


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 4, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> I asked you nicely to quit lying and yet you keep doing it,,
> 
> food and rent are not the cost of doing business for an employee because hes not doing business,, he working a job and going home, the employer is doing the business,,



Wrong.
All employees are doing business.
They do labor and are paid for it.
You are only supposed to be taxed on your profit after overhead expenses.
Rent is a valid overhead expense, but they don't let workers deduct that.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 4, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Post the part that mentions rent, food, transportation, etc. , as a deductible expense.



The point is only profit is supposed to be taxed.
The cost of living is not profit.
It should not be taxed.
To tax the cost of living would violate the survival rights of the individual.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 4, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Like I said, the teaser reset had squat to do with a 3 week LIBOR spike, after the bubble already burst.



Does not matter if the bubble had already burst or not.
The teaser should not have been able to increase by so much, so quickly, and the LIBOR did spike, greatly increasing the defaults.
Then the home buyers should have been bailed out, not the banks.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 4, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Nope, my cost of living isn't a business expense.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes it is.
The cost of living is not profit and should not be taxed.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 4, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Possibly it's more useful to think in terms of political economy which seek to study the relations between production and trade with the law and government?
> 
> As someone who grew up during the Cold War I was brainwashed into believing socialism required government ownership of the means of production which isn't all that different from capitalism's belief that a small rich minority of society should decide what to make, where to make it, and how to distribute any surplus.
> 
> ...



I agree, "neither USSR type socialism of US style capitalism is based on economic democracy", but I believe both the USSR and the US are oligarchies of the wealthy elite capitalists.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 4, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Wrong.
> All employees are doing business.
> They do labor and are paid for it.
> You are only supposed to be taxed on your profit after overhead expenses.
> Rent is a valid overhead expense, but they don't let workers deduct that.


I think you need to itemize instead of taking the standard deductions.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 4, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> I agree, "neither USSR type socialism of US style capitalism is based on economic democracy", but I believe both the USSR and the US are oligarchies of the wealthy elite capitalists.


That is why the equality of equal protection of the laws matters.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 4, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> he private label securities market, or PLS, Wall Street’s alternative to the government-backed secondary mortgage markets, grew significantly in the lead-up to the crisis. The expansion of an unregulated PLS market and the development of the ever more complicated financial instruments tied to it are what transformed a housing bubble into the largest financial crisis since the Great Depression.








"We expand the debate on incentives embedded in the originate-to-distribute lending model by presenting evidence on the placement of mortgage-backed securities (MBS) with mutual funds. We do so by capitalizing on a unique testing platform encompassing institutional holdings of private-label MBS and their corresponding underlying collateral risk char..."

Private-label securitization process


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 4, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Where is the wealth created by capital in your simplistic cartoon?


*What do you know about commodities?*

The Labor Theory of Value and Surplus Value

"Once the economy is overtaken by commodities, things that people never imagined could become commodities finally succumbed. Marx offered this description:

"'Finally, there came a time when everything that men had considered as inalienable became an object of exchange, of traffic and could be alienated.' 

"'This is the time when the very things which till then had been communicated, but never exchanged; given, but never sold; acquired, but never bought – virtue, love, conviction, knowledge, conscience, etc. – *when everything, in short, passed into commerce. *It is the time of general corruption, of universal venality, or, to speak in terms of political economy, *the time when everything, moral or physical, having become a marketable value, is brought to the market to be assessed at its truest value.'* [_The Poverty of Philosophy_]"


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 4, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Now can you explain why it's totally full of shit?


Right after you explain why it isn't, Hater.




How MAGA Hats Became Synonymous with Hate


----------



## progressive hunter (Nov 4, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Wrong.
> All employees are doing business.
> They do labor and are paid for it.
> You are only supposed to be taxed on your profit after overhead expenses.
> Rent is a valid overhead expense, but they don't let workers deduct that.


employees are doing a job and getting paid for it,, the owners are doing business,,

why is it called an income tax then??

rent for what?? the owners pay the rent for the building the company is in,,


----------



## progressive hunter (Nov 4, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Yes it is.
> The cost of living is not profit and should not be taxed.


cost of living isnt taxed,, unless you have a link to something no one knows about,,


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 4, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Right after you explain why it isn't, Hater.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Because it's a big fat commie lie, asshole.


----------



## Mac-7 (Nov 4, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf
> 
> "Capitalism and democracy follow different logics: unequally distributed property rights on the one hand, equal civic and political rights on the other; profit oriented trade within capitalism in contrast to the search for the common good within democracy; debate, compromise and majority decision-making within democratic politics versus hierarchical decision-making by managers and capital owners.
> 
> ...


We are asked to believe that the collectivists just want America to be like Norway or Denmark

But those happy little pockets of “democracy” will not be happy for long without America to protect them

And we need a booming capitalist economy to do that


----------



## kaz (Nov 4, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Very little scares conservatives more than equality of opportunity:*
> 
> Political Economy
> 
> ...



You're a liar, that's what conservatives want.   It's your side that is focused on equality of results, lying racist pig


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 4, 2021)

kaz said:


> You're a liar, that's what conservatives want.   It's your side that is focused on equality of results, lying racist pig


The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 4, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> The point is only profit is supposed to be taxed.
> The cost of living is not profit.
> It should not be taxed.
> To tax the cost of living would violate the survival rights of the individual.



*The point is only profit is supposed to be taxed.*

If you're a business.

*The cost of living is not profit.*

Poop isn't ice cream.

*To tax the cost of living would violate the survival rights of the individual.*

LOL! You should definitely only elect people who don't violate your survival rights.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 4, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Does not matter if the bubble had already burst or not.
> The teaser should not have been able to increase by so much, so quickly, and the LIBOR did spike, greatly increasing the defaults.
> Then the home buyers should have been bailed out, not the banks.



*Does not matter if the bubble had already burst or not.*

Only if you don't understand cause and effect. Or time.

*The teaser should not have been able to increase by so much*

Why? Did you not understand the contract you signed? Or math?

*and the LIBOR did spike, greatly increasing the defaults.*

When? How much? For how long? Be specific man.

*Then the home buyers should have been bailed out, not the banks*

Banks got short term loans that they quickly repaid. 
Would a similar "bailout" have helped many home buyers?
What about the actual handouts that were given to bailout homeowners?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 4, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Yes it is.
> The cost of living is not profit and should not be taxed.



Who told you it was a profit? Why did you believe them?


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 4, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> I think you need to itemize instead of taking the standard deductions.



If I am a home owner, then I can itemize deductions like mortgage interest, capital improvements, property taxes etc.
But if I am a renter, I have to pay for those same things, as well as more to landlord profit, and yet I am unable to take any deductions for it, whether or not I itemize.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 4, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *What do you know about commodities?*
> 
> The Labor Theory of Value and Surplus Value
> 
> ...



*What do you know about commodities?*

A shit-ton more than you.

*Marx offered this description*

Marx was funny. Especially when he talks about economics.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 4, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> But if I am a renter, I have to pay for those same things, as well as more to landlord profit, and yet I am unable to take any deductions for it, whether or not I itemize.



That's when you take the standard deduction.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 4, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *Does not matter if the bubble had already burst or not.*
> 
> Only if you don't understand cause and effect. Or time.
> 
> ...



Wrong.
All Adjustable Rate Mortgages likely are deceptive and should be illegal.
But the buyers are told that the adjustable rate will be based on the economy, and they were lied to.
When the economy tanked, the adjustable mortgage rates close to doubled.
No one could afford that.
It was outright fraud and theft by the banks.
Nor did the banks have to foreclose.
The rate did not have to increase.
There was no new expense to the banks.
They could have kept things at the same profitable rates, without foreclosing.
But they wanted the defaults.
Then they got all the previous payments for free, and the buyer lost everything, including down payment.

But I would NEVER take an ARM.
They are foolish and deceptive.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 4, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Who told you it was a profit? Why did you believe them?



It is not hard to itemize the cost of living, just as companies do with itemizing their cost of doing business.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 4, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> That's when you take the standard deduction.



The standard deduction is less than a third of what it actually cost to live.
That is totally unfair.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 4, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> If I am a home owner, then I can itemize deductions like mortgage interest, capital improvements, property taxes etc.
> But if I am a renter, I have to pay for those same things, as well as more to landlord profit, and yet I am unable to take any deductions for it, whether or not I itemize.











						Renters: 7 Tax Deductions & Credits You May Qualify For | The Official Blog of TaxSlayer
					

Rent itself can't be deducted from your taxable income, but there are other tax breaks you can claim to lower your liability when you don't own a home.



					www.taxslayer.com


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 4, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> Renters: 7 Tax Deductions & Credits You May Qualify For | The Official Blog of TaxSlayer
> 
> 
> Rent itself can't be deducted from your taxable income, but there are other tax breaks you can claim to lower your liability when you don't own a home.
> ...



Most of those are unrealistic, would trigger an audit, or are only for your state taxes.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 4, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Wrong.
> All Adjustable Rate Mortgages likely are deceptive and should be illegal.
> But the buyers are told that the adjustable rate will be based on the economy, and they were lied to.
> When the economy tanked, the adjustable mortgage rates close to doubled.
> ...



*All Adjustable Rate Mortgages likely are deceptive and should be illegal.*

What's wrong, did the wording in the contract confuse you?
Was the addition too difficult?

*But the buyers are told that the adjustable rate will be based on the economy, *

Show me. Post a contract that mentioned the economy, not an index rate.

*When the economy tanked, the adjustable mortgage rates close to doubled.*

When did the economy tank? What was the original rate? The new rate?
Without specifics, your whining is unconvincing.

*It was outright fraud and theft by the banks.
Nor did the banks have to foreclose.*

You think the banks wanted to foreclose between 2007-2009?

You think the banks made money on foreclosures between 2007-2009?

*The rate did not have to increase.
There was no new expense to the banks.*

If the banks financed the mortgage with short-term money (deposits), 
why don't they have a new expense when rates increase?
But beyond that, you got a lower rate with the adjustable. If you wanted
a fixed rate, get a fixed rate mortgage. Or understand the risk you took 
and stop whining.

*But I would NEVER take an ARM.
They are foolish and deceptive.*

So why are you whining about the people who did?
If they were too stupid to understand what they signed, they should be renters.
Of course they still need to read their lease, eh?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 4, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> It is not hard to itemize the cost of living, just as companies do with itemizing their cost of doing business.



Itemize away. Some of the items you're listing aren't deductible.

Call your congressman and senators.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 4, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> The standard deduction is less than a third of what it actually cost to live.
> That is totally unfair.



*The standard deduction is less than a third of what it actually cost to live.*

Depends on where/how you live.

*That is totally unfair.*


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 4, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> If the banks financed the mortgage with short-term money (deposits),
> why don't they have a new expense when rates increase?



Wrong.
The US Prime decreased, not increased.
That is basic to understanding at all what happened, so then clearly you don't have a clue or are deliberately lying.
The sequence of events started with Bush borrowing too much for his wars, the economy tanked, the LIBOR shot up as the US Prime went down, mortgage payment almost doubled, and the banks started foreclosing when they did not have to.
That lead to all bank assets devaluing to the point the banks then needed to be bailed out.
But the banks did it to themselves.
If they had not foreclosed, then the real estate would not have devalued.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 4, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Wrong.
> The US Prime decreased, not increased.
> That is basic to understanding at all what happened, so then clearly you don't have a clue or are deliberately lying.
> The sequence of events started with Bush borrowing too much for his wars, the economy tanked, the LIBOR shot up as the US Prime went down, mortgage payment almost doubled, and the banks started foreclosing when they did not have to.
> ...




*The US Prime decreased, not increased.*

You're not going to post any actual numbers, are you?
Start with a real mortgage before and after the reset.
And why are you conflating deposit rates with the Prime Rate?
Is it because you don't have a clue?

*That is basic to understanding at all what happened, so then clearly you don't have a clue or are deliberately lying.*

Pointing out your errors isn't a lie.

*the LIBOR shot up as the US Prime went down*

When? Be specific. Was it before or after the real estate bubble started to deflate in 2007?
Before or after the Fed Funds rate went from 1% in 2004 to 5.25% in 2006?
You think that hike in Fed Funds caused any adjustable mortgages to reset higher?





Was it this 6 week spike, 9 months after the recession started, that was to blame?





__





						Federal Reserve Economic Data | FRED | St. Louis Fed
					

Download, graph, and track 818,000 economic time series from 110 sources.



					fred.stlouisfed.org
				




What about the 2 point drop in Libor in the 9 months before that spike?

*If they had not foreclosed, then the real estate would not have devalued.*

Stop it......you're killing me!!!!


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 4, 2021)

Ringtone said:


> As a form of government, democracy sucks.


*You sound like a Democrat*

Democrats’ Betrayals Are Jeopardizing American Democracy

"American democracy is in the midst of a meltdown — the Jan. 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol and Republicans’ intensifying crusade to limit voting rights and deny election results make that abundantly clear. 

"Conflict-averse Democrats in Washington, D.C., are on the verge of letting this turn into a full-fledged nightmare. 

"Torn between their corporate donors and the electorate, they are studiously avoiding the two key questions: *What is really fueling this crisis? And how can it be stopped?"*


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 5, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Even idiots like you can benefit from owning stock.


Only a useless eater like you would know
Financial Parasites Have Become Neo-Feudal Landlords




The Incredibly Unproductive Shareholder


----------



## dblack (Nov 5, 2021)

Ringtone said:


> As a form of government, democracy sucks.


Indeed it does. It should be our last resort, not our first choice.

Democracy is the majority forcing its will on everyone else. That should only be allowed when it's absolutely necessary for everyone to be on the same page. In most cases, it's not.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 5, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Check it out.....Commies lied.







Why would greedy assholes care?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 5, 2021)

dblack said:


> LOL, what do you think?


*My first impression is she doesn't want the job*




Biden’s Nominee Omarova Has a Published Plan to Move All Bank Deposits to the Fed and Let the New York Fed Short Stocks

"This month, the Vanderbilt Law Review published a 69-page paper by Saule Omarova, President Biden’s nominee to head the* Office of the Comptroller of the Currency (OCC)*, the Federal regulator of the largest banks in the country that operate across state lines. 

"The paper is titled 'The People’s Ledger: How to Democratize Money and Finance the Economy.'"

*How would democratize money?*


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 5, 2021)

dblack said:


> Indeed it is. It allows for a market that attends to the needs of everyone, not just the majority.


*Any market based on ability to pay as opposed to human needs is destined to fail in any number of ways:*
MARKETS AND MARKET FAILURE IN HEALTH SERVICES Health Economic Course Series -  ppt download




"Defining Market Failure​"Market failure occurs when the price mechanism fails to account for all of the costs and benefits necessary to provide and consume a good"

Introducing Market Failure | Boundless Economics


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 5, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Did you ever find where capitalism killed 5 million from lack of drinking water?


Sure.
Did you miss it again. Loser?


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 5, 2021)

I would insist on equal protection of the at-will employment laws for unemployment compensation in our at-will employment States. 

The reason being is the more people we get off means tested social services and onto unemployment compensation, the greater the multiplier effect will be.  For comparison and contrast, means tested welfare generates a multiplier of around 0.8 where unemployment compensation generates a multiplier of around 2.0. 

Thus, a three trillion dollar stimulus could generate six trillion dollars worth of economic activity. 

Only right-wingers have a problem helping out the Poor. 

These persons know that economic activity must go somewhere:

_From 1978 to 2018, CEO compensation grew by 1,007.5% (940.3% under the options-realized measure), far outstripping S&P stock market growth (706.7%) and the wage growth of very high earners (339.2%). In contrast, wages for the typical worker grew by just 11.9%._


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 5, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> ou still whining because the commies lost?


You're next.




Piggy.


----------



## dblack (Nov 5, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "This month, the Vanderbilt Law Review published a 69-page paper by Saule Omarova, President Biden’s nominee to head the* Office of the Comptroller of the Currency (OCC)*, the Federal regulator of the largest banks in the country that operate across state lines.
> 
> "The paper is titled 'The People’s Ledger: How to Democratize Money and Finance the Economy.'"
> 
> *How would democratize money?*



Giving government even more control over our money would be a terrible mistake.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 5, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Technology helped more skilled people earn more.
> Unskilled people, not so much.


*FIRE sector parasites put an end to the New Deal and shifted the tax burden off oligarchs and onto skilled and unskilled productive Americans:*




_"Abstract: Conflation of real capital with finance capital is at the heart of current misunderstandings of economic crisis and recession. We ground this distinction in the classical analysis of rent and the difference between productive and unproductive credit." 

Finance is Not the Economy | Michael Hudson_


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 5, 2021)

dblack said:


> "Democratic outcomes" are frequently shit.


Compared to what? In the wake of WWII, it's likely a majority of voters in Greece, Italy, and Korea would have elected communists to run their governments. Are you arrogant enough to believe White America knew better?




World War II and the Post War Years - NAACP: A Century in the Fight for Freedom | Exhibitions - Library of Congress


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 5, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Skills pay more than ever. Too bad you never acquired any


"Why have economies polarized so sharply since the 1980s, and especially since the 2008 crisis? How did we get so indebted without real wage and living standards rising, while cities, states, and entire nations are falling into default?"

Finance is Not the Economy | Michael Hudson


----------



## dblack (Nov 5, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Compared to what?


Voluntary interaction.


georgephillip said:


> In the wake of WWII, it's likely a majority of voters in Greece, Italy, and Korea would have elected communists to run their governments.


Exactly.



georgephillip said:


> Are you arrogant enough to believe White America knew better?


White America??? Listen you ignorant motherfucker - if you are implying I'm a racist, you can go fuck yourself. With a pitchfork. In the ass. Hard.

Go on. Hop to it. What are you waiting for?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 5, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> That isn't fascism, shit for brains.


That's cracker fascism, Cracker.
Too much MAGA?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 5, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Actually the New Deal made the depression last longer.


Says who?


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 5, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Says who?


Every legitimate economist, including Milton Friedman


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 5, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The collapse of the housing market was caused by low interest rates, easy credit, insufficient regulation, and toxic subprime mortgage fraud 80% of which was driven by private, for-profit lenders.
> 
> CNN.com - FBI warns of mortgage fraud 'epidemic'  - Sep 17, 2004


Leftwing propaganda.  The government caused it by forcing lenders to give mortgages to people who couldn't pay them.


----------



## dblack (Nov 5, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Leftwing propaganda.  The government caused it by forcing lenders to give mortgages to people who couldn't pay them.


And by propagating the presumption that government will bail everyone out when things go tits up.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 5, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *What do shareholders do to "earn" their economic rewards?*
> 
> The Divine Right of Capital by Marjorie Kelly
> 
> ...


What do shareholders do to "earn" their economic rewards?  

Anyone who asks a question like that is too stupid to argue with.  What did they do?  They put their hard earned money down and bought shares, you fucking moron.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 5, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Did you ever find where capitalism killed 5 million from lack of drinking water?


----------



## dblack (Nov 5, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> What do shareholders do to "earn" their economic rewards?
> 
> Anyone who asks a question like that is too stupid to argue with.  What did they do?  They put their hard earned money down and bought shares, you fucking moron.



Socialists simply can't comprehend the importance of efficient resource allocation. I saw a great presentation, some 25 years ago, from a former high ranking Soviet economic planner. He understood this principle very well - because, for years, it was his job to make the decisions that investors make in a free market: ie deciding which projects should be funded and how much funding they should get. There was simply no way a centralized authority could make these decisions in a way that actually satisfied consumers. Thus the USSR became infamous for people waiting in line for products and services that the government didn't sufficiently fund and warehouses full of shit no one wanted.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 5, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Capitalists own every government on the planet.
> Every social and economic problem "government" gets blamed for stems from privatizing profits and socializing costs.*
> 
> Tallying Capitalism’s Death Toll
> ...


So Cuba, Venezuela and North Korea are doing a great job of satisfying the needs of the vast majority?  

How can you post this stuff with a straight face?


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 5, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> That's cracker fascism, Cracker.
> Too much MAGA?


It's not fascism.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 5, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Any market based on ability to pay as opposed to human needs is destined to fail in any number of ways:*
> MARKETS AND MARKET FAILURE IN HEALTH SERVICES Health Economic Course Series -  ppt download
> 
> 
> ...



The market does a lot better job than government does.  Why isn't the term "government failure" in your vocabulary?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 5, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Only a useless eater like you would know



Everyone knows you're an idiot. Starting with you.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 5, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Sure.
> Did you miss it again. Loser?



Where? Post it. Idiot.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 5, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> You're next.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 5, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *FIRE sector parasites put an end to the New Deal and shifted the tax burden off oligarchs and onto skilled and unskilled productive Americans:*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Marxist economist. DURR!


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 5, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Compared to what? In the wake of WWII, it's likely a majority of voters in Greece, Italy, and Korea would have elected communists to run their governments. Are you arrogant enough to believe White America knew better?
> 
> World War II and the Post War Years - NAACP: A Century in the Fight for Freedom | Exhibitions - Library of Congress



One man, one vote, one time.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 5, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "Why have economies polarized so sharply since the 1980s, and especially since the 2008 crisis? How did we get so indebted without real wage and living standards rising, while cities, states, and entire nations are falling into default?"
> 
> Finance is Not the Economy | Michael Hudson



Unskilled workers (cough...you...cough) are not the economy.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 6, 2021)

Brain357 said:


> Capitalism thrives in a democracy.


*So said the Nazis.*

Is Capitalism a Threat to Democracy?

"The idea that authoritarianism attracts workers harmed by the free market, which emerged when the Nazis were in power, has been making a comeback."


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 6, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Only a useless eater like you would know
> Financial Parasites Have Become Neo-Feudal Landlords
> 
> 
> ...


Progs are the only ones whoever called anyone a "useless eater."


georgephillip said:


> *The New Deal put millions of unemployed men back to work after capitalism crashed:*
> 
> Putting People Back to Work [ushistory.org]
> 
> ...



It's normal for unemployment to decrease after a recession.  However, normally it goes back to the prerecession rate within a couple years


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 6, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *So said the Nazis.*
> 
> Is Capitalism a Threat to Democracy?
> 
> "The idea that authoritarianism attracts workers harmed by the free market, which emerged when the Nazis were in power, has been making a comeback."


"The New Yorker is a left-wing propaganda rag.  It's about as left as you can get.

When did the NAZIs ever adopt the free market?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 6, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> It was caused by the government, turd. Government forced banks to give mortgages to people who couldn't pay them.
> 
> The facts are indisputable.


The Great Recession started as a big Ponzi scheme.
"Liar loans" were illegal frauds and the triple-A rating bestowed on those illegal frauds by private for-profit ratings corporations was part of a criminal cover-up.
The role government played in enabling those private, for-profit frauds was done at the behest of private corporations and Wall Street parasites you so slavishly parrot.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 6, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> You mean we never had wars before capitalism? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> 
> . . . . . . . .er, wait. No, that's not right.


When have private fortunes existed without war and debt?


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 6, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The Great Recession started as a big Ponzi scheme.
> "Liar loans" were illegal frauds and the triple-A rating bestowed on those illegal frauds by private for-profit ratings corporations was part of a criminal cover-up.



The only ones who lost money on "liar loans" were the lenders who issued them, you fucking moron.  


georgephillip said:


> The role government played in enabling those private, for-profit frauds was done at the behest of private corporations and Wall Street parasites you so slavishly parrot.



In other words, the government is at fault.  You admit that, but you want government to take over the banks.

You're a fucking moron.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 6, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> When have private fortunes existed without war and debt?


When has government existed without war and debt?

War is 10,000 years old, yet you blame it on capitalism?

You're a special kind of stupid.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 6, 2021)

theHawk said:


> President Trump was like a flashlight, he exposed our supposed “democracy” and showed everyone it’s an oligarch and Washington Establishment that runs everything


*Trump is an oligarch; he's the corrupt crony-capitalist who found a way to cut-out venal middlemen like Clinton, Bush, and Biden. His administration was the most corrupt in recent US History.*

President Trump’s legacy of corruption, four years and 3,700 conflicts of interest later - CREW | Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington

"Here’s what you need to know:​"As president, Donald Trump has flouted all kinds of norms, starting with his decision not to divest from his business interests while in office. 

"That set the stage for an administration marked by self-interest, profiteering at the highest levels and more than 3,700 conflicts of interest."


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 6, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Wasn't capitalism supposed to be replaced by now?
> What happened to the workers of the world uniting and losing their chains?


“Capitalism, Marx said, never went beyond those economic models where a few dominate a majority. Capitalism just replaced the dichotomies of master/slave and lord/serf with a new one. A dominating and exploiting minority was still there, but it had a new name: employers.”

― "Richard D. Wolff, Understanding Marxism"

NOVEMBER 5, 2021
Capitalism is Dying, But Don’t Expect the Patient to Accept the Diagnosis​


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 6, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> The government would do much better if it owned all the shares.
> Just look how well that worked in the Soviet Union.


The Divine Right of Capital by Marjorie Kelly

_*"Capital Income + Retained earnings = Revenue – (Employee income + Cost of materials)*_

"...this formula could just as easily be re-written as:

_*Employee income + Retained earnings = Revenue – (Capital income + Cost of materials)"*_


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 6, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Trump is an oligarch; he's the corrupt crony-capitalist who found a way to cut-out venal middlemen like Clinton, Bush, and Biden. His administration was the most corrupt in recent US History.*
> 
> President Trump’s legacy of corruption, four years and 3,700 conflicts of interest later - CREW | Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington
> 
> ...


That's a flat-out lie, of course.  Trump is  100 times cleaner than any Democrat politician we've had in the last 100 years.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 6, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> rump and his siblings inherited $35 million each. You obviously believe that parents shouldn't be able to decide who gets their money when they die. What a fucking Stalinist.


"The department typically refers findings to the state attorney general’s office.

*"The Times says the Trump family hid millions of dollars of transfers from the father to his children through a sham company owned by the children called All County Building Supply & Maintenance. *

"Set up in 1992 ostensibly as a purchasing agent to supply Fred Trump’s buildings with boilers, cleaning supplies and other goods, the father would pad invoices with markups of 20 percent or even 50 percent, thereby avoiding gift taxes, the newspaper reports.

"The Times says that before Fred Trump died in the late 1990s, he transferred ownership of most of his real estate empire to his four living children.

The value of the properties in tax returns summed up to $41.4 million, vastly less than the Times says they were worth.."

Donald Trump received more than $400M from father through dubious tax dodges: NYT - National | Globalnews.ca


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 6, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Capitalism has only been around for about 200 years, so how can that be true?


History of capitalism - Wikipedia

"The *history of capitalism* is diverse. The concept of capitalism has many debated roots, but fully[_quantify_] fledged capitalism is generally thought by scholars to have emerged in Northwestern Europe, especially in Great Britain and the Netherlands, in the 16th to 17th centuries"


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 6, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "The department typically refers findings to the state attorney general’s office.
> 
> *"The Times says the Trump family hid millions of dollars of transfers from the father to his children through a sham company owned by the children called All County Building Supply & Maintenance. *
> 
> ...


The Times says they were worth?"

You have no proof that his heirs received any more than $35 million.  The times is even less credible than CNN, so why should anyone believe their claims?

The bottom line: people have a right to pass on their wealth to whomever they like.  Government has no right to the money.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 6, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> “Capitalism, Marx said, never went beyond those economic models where a few dominate a majority. Capitalism just replaced the dichotomies of master/slave and lord/serf with a new one. A dominating and exploiting minority was still there, but it had a new name: employers.”
> 
> ― "Richard D. Wolff, Understanding Marxism"
> 
> ...



Marxism already died, why are you still quoting the Marxist economist?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 6, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> “Capitalism, Marx said, never went beyond those economic models where a few dominate a majority. Capitalism just replaced the dichotomies of master/slave and lord/serf with a new one. A dominating and exploiting minority was still there, but it had a new name: employers.”
> 
> ― "Richard D. Wolff, Understanding Marxism"
> 
> ...



_With a labor force increasingly atomized and pushed to the brink, and a Democratic Party unable and unwilling to address the very dire material conditions decimating vast swaths of the population......._

But you just said......

_Perhaps you’ve noticed something. There have been massive staffing shortages throughout the US and elsewhere. Workers are walking out or just not showing up._

How dire can their situation be if millions are sitting out the work force?

Maybe the commie economist is missing something, eh?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 6, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The Divine Right of Capital by Marjorie Kelly
> 
> _*"Capital Income + Retained earnings = Revenue – (Employee income + Cost of materials)*_
> 
> ...



Yup. You can move the terms around, doesn't change the math.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 6, 2021)

dblack said:


> Socialists simply can't comprehend the importance of efficient resource allocation. I saw a great presentation, some 25 years ago, from a former high ranking Soviet economic planner. He understood this principle very well - because, for years, it was his job to make the decisions that investors make in a free market: ie deciding which projects should be funded and how much funding they should get. There was simply no way a centralized authority could make these decisions in a way that actually satisfied consumers. Thus the USSR became infamous for people waiting in line for products and services that the government didn't sufficiently fund and warehouses full of shit no one wanted.



Socialist have a much BETTER handle on resource allocation than capitalists ever could.
First of all, both have the exact same source of information, the people stocking shelves, who know what is moving and what is not.
Second is that the socialist can do what is necessary to create not only the needed products, but the infrastructure to keep it most efficient.
While capitalists don't care, will switch to what ever is most profitable instead of useful, and will sell bad products if they can get away with it.
Capitalists are automatically extremely inefficient because their goal is to put every other producer out of business, costing the society huge amounts of money, as people then have to be fired and plants closed.

The USSR has NOTHING to do with socialism, but was Stalinist state capitalism, where oligarchs try to gain wealth by forcing inferior products on people.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 6, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Socialist have a much BETTER handle on resource allocation than capitalists ever could.



Obviously.
Just look at the success of Venezuela.
Or East Germany.
The USSR is going gangbusters, of course.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 6, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> "The New Yorker is a left-wing propaganda rag.  It's about as left as you can get.
> 
> When did the NAZIs ever adopt the free market?



When were the Nazis ever NOT free market?
Under Hitler in the 1930s and 40s, there was no state control of any markets.
About the only real thing Hitler did was good, which was to prevent wealth from leaving the country.
Lots of US companies like GM, Std Oil, etc.,  thrived in the ultra capitalism of the German fascists.
Fascists are the wealthy elite, and the exact opposite of communists or socialists.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 6, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Second is that the socialist can do what is necessary to create not only the needed products,




_MOSCOW -- The Soviet Union marched still closer to complete economic collapse yesterday as bread lines grew longer and the government reportedly edged toward bankruptcy.

The situation is so serious, the head of the Russian KGB said, that rioting could erupt across Russia within weeks.

"A revolt would be most likely in December," Maj. Gen. Viktor Ivanenko told the weekly newspaper Argumenti i Fakti. "The main danger today is a series of directed social explosions. The people are exasperated, rumors are flying around about prices being freed very soon."

The mayor of Moscow announced a coupon rationing system on the most basic foods -- bread, meat, butter and eggs -- calling it an interim measure to "create some stability in regard to prices," according to the New York Times._









						On the brink: bread lines in Moscow Soviet Union reported nearing bankruptcy
					






					www.baltimoresun.com
				




Like bread, that's needed, right?


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 6, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Obviously.
> Just look at the success of Venezuela.
> Or East Germany.
> The USSR is going gangbusters, of course.



Venezuela is a imperial colonial possession, with a long traditions of rule by the wealthy elite, who actually still run the country now.
East Germany was occupied by the USSR, and the USSR was about the most extreme capitalist oligarchy in the world, under Stalin.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 6, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Capitalists are automatically extremely inefficient because their goal is to put every other producer out of business,



Only the least efficient ones. Socialism keeps the inefficient ones running.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 6, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> East Germany was occupied by the USSR, and the USSR was about the most extreme capitalist oligarchy in the world, under Stalin.



Lots of capitalist competition in the USSR, eh?
How many blue jeans makers?
Or private farms? Auto makers?


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 6, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> _MOSCOW -- The Soviet Union marched still closer to complete economic collapse yesterday as bread lines grew longer and the government reportedly edged toward bankruptcy.
> 
> The situation is so serious, the head of the Russian KGB said, that rioting could erupt across Russia within weeks.
> 
> ...



Obviously the USSR was ultra state capitalism and that is why it failed.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 6, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Only the least efficient ones. Socialism keeps the inefficient ones running.


Wrong.  Socialism is the people, so why would they do that?


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 6, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Lots of capitalist competition in the USSR, eh?
> How many blue jeans makers?
> Or private farms? Auto makers?



That is silly.
It is capitalists who hate competition and try to create monopolies instead.
When there is no competition, that is a capitalists ideal.
It is a monopoly.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 6, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Obviously the USSR was ultra state capitalism and that is why it failed.



No competion allowed, sounds like they were the opposite of capitalism.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 6, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> When has government existed without war and debt?
> 
> War is 10,000 years old, yet you blame it on capitalism?
> 
> You're a special kind of stupid.



War and capitalism are about 9,000 years old, and that is very recent.
Humans are over 2 million years old.
Before capitalism, humans were more hunter/gatherer, and did not have mercenaries because there was no currency to pay them.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 6, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Wrong.  Socialism is the people, so why would they do that?



You're the one supporting it, you tell me why they do that.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 6, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Only the least efficient ones. Socialism keeps the inefficient ones running.



Socialism is where the people decide, so why would they do that?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 6, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> That is silly.
> It is capitalists who hate competition and try to create monopolies instead.
> When there is no competition, that is a capitalists ideal.
> It is a monopoly.



*It is capitalists who hate competition and try to create monopolies instead.*

They try, but they can't succeed unless the government outlaws competition. 
Like in the USSR, East Germany and Venezuela


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 6, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> You're the one supporting it, you tell me why they do that.



The people would not do that, so if the inefficient companies are winning, it is because of capitalists deliberately trying to destroy the better products for higher profits.  There is no profit motive in socialism, so there is no inherent corruption like there is with capitalism.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 6, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *It is capitalists who hate competition and try to create monopolies instead.*
> 
> They try, but they can't succeed unless the government outlaws competition.
> Like in the USSR, East Germany and Venezuela



The USSR, East Germany, and Venezuela are capitalist, not socialist, otherwise the people would have total say.
Do the people have ANY say in those countries?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 6, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Socialism is where the people decide, so why would they do that?



When did the German people decide to make Trabants?
When did they decide to stop?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 6, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> so if the inefficient companies are winning, it is because of capitalists deliberately trying to destroy the better products for higher profits.



Ummm...the inefficient companies aren't winning, they don't have better products or higher profits.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 6, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> The USSR, East Germany, and Venezuela are capitalist, not socialist



You're got the strangest definition of capitalist. Or you're stoned. Drunk? 


_Venezuela’s President Nicolas Maduro said on Thursday that 34 supermarket managers had been jailed on charges of hiding food and gouging prices, in the leftist government’s latest crackdown on businesses as the country struggles under a severe economic downturn.









						Venezuela jails 34 store managers on charges of price gouging
					

Venezuela's President Nicolas Maduro said on Thursday that 34 supermarket managers had been jailed on charges of hiding food and gouging prices, in the leftist government's latest crackdown on businesses as the country struggles under a severe economic downturn.




					www.reuters.com
				



_
How is the above capitalist?


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 6, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> When did the German people decide to make Trabants?
> When did they decide to stop?



Since the Trabants were made by capitalist East Germans, then the people never had any say.
But I think the Trabant was an excellent car solution.
Rust proof plastic fenders, fuel efficient 2 stroke engine, etc.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 6, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Ummm...the inefficient companies aren't winning, they don't have better products or higher profits.



Wrong.
When capitalists are not restrained, they use force to destroy competition while remaining inefficient.
Never have the best products ever won because capitalists always cheat.
For example, Microsoft never had the best products, but they simply cheated.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 6, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Since the Trabants were made by capitalist East Germans, then the people never had any say.
> But I think the Trabant was an excellent car solution.
> Rust proof plastic fenders, fuel efficient 2 stroke engine, etc.



*Since the Trabants were made by capitalist East Germans, then the people never had any say.*

The people have no say under capitalism? How many Trabants did the people demand last year?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 6, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Wrong.
> When capitalists are not restrained, they use force to destroy competition while remaining inefficient.
> Never have the best products ever won because capitalists always cheat.
> For example, Microsoft never had the best products, but they simply cheated.



*When capitalists are not restrained, they use force to destroy competition while remaining inefficient.*

Walmart became the largest retailer while remaining less efficient than Kmart?
How does a smaller retailer use force to destroy a larger retailer?


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 6, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> You're got the strangest definition of capitalist. Or you're stoned. Drunk?
> 
> 
> _Venezuela’s President Nicolas Maduro said on Thursday that 34 supermarket managers had been jailed on charges of hiding food and gouging prices, in the leftist government’s latest crackdown on businesses as the country struggles under a severe economic downturn.
> ...



You just have no idea at all what capitalism or socialism is.
You think that capitalism is the little entrepreneur, trying to make a market niche.
And you think socialism is central planning.
Both are totally wrong.
Capitalism is the aristocracy pulling strings.
Socialism is local pooling of resources to created needed products under popular and local control.
When you have central control, that is to the capitalist aristocracy can take over.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 6, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Capitalism is the aristocracy pulling strings.



What royal family was Sam Walton from?


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 6, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *Since the Trabants were made by capitalist East Germans, then the people never had any say.*
> 
> The people have no say under capitalism? How many Trabants did the people demand last year?



The Trabant was a very good car design for the 1950s when designed.
It is still popular.
But it is not a profitable car to make because it is not flashy, so the capitalists killed it.
It lasts too long, is too inexpensive to own, and can't charge more for wasteful things like a powerful engine or automatic tranny.
The people want cars like the Trabant but the capitalists instead want to sell them more profitable cars.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 6, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *When capitalists are not restrained, they use force to destroy competition while remaining inefficient.*
> 
> Walmart became the largest retailer while remaining less efficient than Kmart?
> How does a smaller retailer use force to destroy a larger retailer?



That is silly because capitalists ARE restrained in the US by antitrust and other laws.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 6, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> What royal family was Sam Walton from?



You don't think the wealthy in the US do not pull strings to manipulate elections, media, lobby lawmakers, etc.?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 6, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> The Trabant was a very good car design for the 1950s when designed.
> It is still popular.
> But it is not a profitable car to make because it is not flashy, so the capitalists killed it.
> It lasts too long, is too inexpensive to own, and can't charge more for wasteful things like a powerful engine or automatic tranny.
> The people want cars like the Trabant but the capitalists instead want to sell them more profitable cars.



*But it is not a profitable car to make because it is not flashy, so the capitalists killed it.*

It wasn't profitable? Then why did the East German capitalists make it?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 6, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> That is silly because capitalists ARE restrained in the US by antitrust and other laws.



So they can't use force to destroy competition while remaining inefficient?

Then why did you mention force? Are you stoned?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 6, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> You don't think the wealthy in the US do not pull strings to manipulate elections, media, lobby lawmakers, etc.?


 
Sam Walton pulled strings etc, when he owned a single Ben Franklin store?

How many strings did he have to pull to become the biggest retailer?

Why didn't the bigger retailers pull more strings to stop him?


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 6, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *But it is not a profitable car to make because it is not flashy, so the capitalists killed it.*
> 
> It wasn't profitable? Then why did the East German capitalists make it?



The Trabant was originally make in order to produce a cheap product, like all European cars after the war.
It was tiny, light, cheap, and fantastic mileage.
Just like the Fiat 850, Austin 1100, Mini Cooper, VW bug, etc.
It is still a good car, but not flashy enough for current marketing PR standards of audience manipulation.
It was too good.
It is more profitable to make cars that rust out and are impossible to work on.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 6, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> So they can't use force to destroy competition while remaining inefficient?
> 
> Then why did you mention force? Are you stoned?



I never said that capitalist don't use force, I just said there are laws against using force against competition in the US, so they have to do it surreptitiously, like Bill Gates does.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 6, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Sam Walton pulled strings etc, when he owned a single Ben Franklin store?
> 
> How many strings did he have to pull to become the biggest retailer?
> 
> Why didn't the bigger retailers pull more strings to stop him?



The Waltons likely did not do it themselves, but instead allowed themselves to be used as a puppet, by manufacturers in China.


----------



## dblack (Nov 6, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Socialist have a much BETTER handle on resource allocation than capitalists ever could.
> First of all, both have the exact same source of information, the people stocking shelves, who know what is moving and what is not.
> Second is that the socialist can do what is necessary to create not only the needed products, but the infrastructure to keep it most efficient.
> While capitalists don't care, will switch to what ever is most profitable instead of useful, and will sell bad products if they can get away with it.
> ...


Nope


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 6, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> The Trabant was originally make in order to produce a cheap product, like all European cars after the war.



But not profitable.
No capitalist would make an unprofitable car for so many years.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 6, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> I never said that capitalist don't use force, I just said there are laws against using force against competition in the US, so they have to do it surreptitiously, like Bill Gates does.


*
I never said that capitalist don't use force,*

You said if unrestrained, they would use force.
So where did they use force, if not in the US?

*so they have to do it surreptitiously, like Bill Gates does.*

Bill Gates uses force, surreptitiously?

Tell me more!!


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 6, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> The Waltons likely did not do it themselves, but instead allowed themselves to be used as a puppet, by manufacturers in China.



The Chinese manufacturers used force to make Walmart the largest retailer? How?


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 6, 2021)

dblack said:


> Nope



For there to be communism or socialism, the people who are producing the excess production that can go into public enterprise, then have to equally share the rewards.  Did that happen in the USSR?  No, so then it was not communism or socialism.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 6, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> For there to be communism or socialism, the people who are producing the excess production that can go into public enterprise, then have to equally share the rewards.



In what nation are producers equally sharing the rewards?


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 6, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *I never said that capitalist don't use force,*
> 
> You said if unrestrained, they would use force.
> So where did they use force, if not in the US?
> ...



The meaning of "they would use force if unrestrained" means you try to prevent their use of force.  That does not mean you succeed.

One of the techniques Bill Gates used is known as buying self space.
That is something only an established producer can leverage.
But what Microsoft did was to buy shelf space with distributers, wholesalers and retailers.
It can be an outright bribe, where Microsoft says that if you do not sell competitors, we give you a bonus.
Or is can be a threat, like if you see competitor products, then you can't sell our products any more.

Another thing Microsoft did was try to destroy the web browser competition by giving away their web browser for free and bundling it with Windows,
Fortunately the consumers disliked Explorer so much, that did not fly.
Europe also sued them.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 6, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> The Chinese manufacturers used force to make Walmart the largest retailer? How?




Lots of ways.
One way is to use slave labor to lower prices beyond what anyone else can, until they are out of business, and then you can raise prices to whatever you want.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 6, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> In what nation are producers equally sharing the rewards?



There is no communist country, but countries like Sweden do have large socialist investment by government into enterprise, and they the whole population of the country benefits from the dividends from these investments.
It would be like in the US, instead of selling oil leases to private companies, if the feds drilled, refined, and sold it, with the taxpayers getting all the profits.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 6, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> The meaning of "they would use force if unrestrained" means you try to prevent their use of force.  That does not mean you succeed.
> 
> One of the techniques Bill Gates used is known as buying self space.
> That is something only an established producer can leverage.
> ...



*The meaning of "they would use force if unrestrained" means you try to prevent their use of force.*

So which capitalists used force? When? 

*One of the techniques Bill Gates used is known as buying self space.*

Buying shelf space? He didn't take it by force?

*Another thing Microsoft did was try to destroy the web browser competition by giving away their web browser for free *

Free? That doesn't sound like force either.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 6, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> One way is to use slave labor to lower prices beyond what anyone else can



Lower prices? You can't just force them to pay your higher prices?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 6, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> There is no communist country, but countries like Sweden do have large socialist investment by government into enterprise, and they the whole population of the country benefits from the dividends from these investments.
> It would be like in the US, instead of selling oil leases to private companies, if the feds drilled, refined, and sold it, with the taxpayers getting all the profits.



*There is no communist country*

I didn't say there were. 
*
countries like Sweden do have large socialist investment by government into enterprise, and they the whole population of the country benefits from the dividends from these investments.*

Benefits equally?

*It would be like in the US, instead of selling oil leases to private companies, if the feds drilled, refined, and sold it, with the taxpayers getting all the profits.*

Or like Venezuela, where the government can't even make a profit with the
largest oil reserves on the planet.


----------



## Roudy (Nov 6, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf
> 
> "Capitalism and democracy follow different logics: unequally distributed property rights on the one hand, equal civic and political rights on the other; profit oriented trade within capitalism in contrast to the search for the common good within democracy; debate, compromise and majority decision-making within democratic politics versus hierarchical decision-making by managers and capital owners.
> 
> ...


Heil Marx!


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 7, 2021)

struth said:


> n the real world we see socialism in NK, and capitalism just across the border in SK…night and day


*Because US war crimes included bombing North Korea into the stone age 70 years ago while US capitalists backed a military dictator in South Korea none of which would have happened if the US army had not blocked free elections in Korea in 1945.*

United States Army Military Government in Korea - Wikipedia

"Popular discontent stemmed from the U.S. Military Government's support of the Japanese colonial government; then once removed, keeping the former Japanese governors on as advisors; by ignoring, censoring and forcibly disbanding the functional and popular People's Republic of Korea (PRK); and finally by supporting United Nations elections that divided the country.[2]"


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 7, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> I saw the evidence free claim, I want details.
> Where did capitalism kill 5 million from lack of clean water?


"Why is capitalism the culprit here? All of humanity’s resources have been divided amongst one percent of the world’s population. These people hoard more than 50 percent of the world’s wealth. 

"Because of this massive inequality, the one percent are able to control the means of production, value, and distribution of goods.  If the top 5 wealthiest business people gave only 10 percent of their net worth to ending world hunger, or only 3 percent to provide clean water everywhere on the planet, then these issues would be more than eradicated."

Tallying Capitalism’s Death Toll


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 7, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Is Stalin in hell sucking Hitler's dick, or the other way around?


Ask you orange god.




Stupid bitch.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 7, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> WTF aren't governments already doing that?
> Why do they need to wait for the rich dudes?


Because rich parasites bribe government for lower taxes thereby privatizing profits and socializing costs.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 7, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Yes, "Why is capitalism the culprit here?" The countries where it happens aren't capitalist. They are socialist shitholes







[Classics] Imperialism: The Highest Stage of Capitalism


----------



## struth (Nov 7, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Because US war crimes included bombing North Korea into the stone age 70 years ago while US capitalists backed a military dictator in South Korea none of which would have happened if the US army had not blocked free elections in Korea in 1945.*
> 
> United States Army Military Government in Korea - Wikipedia
> 
> "Popular discontent stemmed from the U.S. Military Government's support of the Japanese colonial government; then once removed, keeping the former Japanese governors on as advisors; by ignoring, censoring and forcibly disbanding the functional and popular People's Republic of Korea (PRK); and finally by supporting United Nations elections that divided the country.[2]"


haha yeah it was the USthat keep NK from being successful 

if socialism was so great, a weak capitalist country wouldn’t stop it…and in 70 years that’s more the. enough time to rebuild


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 7, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Capitalism has starved people to death for centuries.
> Why aren't you complaining about that?
> 
> 
> ...


It's socialism that has starved people do death.  The famine in Ukraine, Ethiopia, Great leap forward, Biafra, and Biafra are all great examples.   Name one capitalist country where people starved to death.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 7, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Because US war crimes included bombing North Korea into the stone age 70 years ago while US capitalists backed a military dictator in South Korea none of which would have happened if the US army had not blocked free elections in Korea in 1945.*
> 
> United States Army Military Government in Korea - Wikipedia
> 
> "Popular discontent stemmed from the U.S. Military Government's support of the Japanese colonial government; then once removed, keeping the former Japanese governors on as advisors; by ignoring, censoring and forcibly disbanding the functional and popular People's Republic of Korea (PRK); and finally by supporting United Nations elections that divided the country.[2]"


NOrth Korea brought that on itself.  All it had to do to prevent it is not invade South Korea.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 7, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Because rich parasites bribe government for lower taxes thereby privatizing profits and socializing costs.


Since when are citizens obligated to turn their wealth over to the government?


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 7, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> There is no communist country, but countries like Sweden do have large socialist investment by government into enterprise, and they the whole population of the country benefits from the dividends from these investments.
> It would be like in the US, instead of selling oil leases to private companies, if the feds drilled, refined, and sold it, with the taxpayers getting all the profits.


That isn't working to well for Venezuela, is it?


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 7, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> War and capitalism are about 9,000 years old, and that is very recent.
> Humans are over 2 million years old.
> Before capitalism, humans were more hunter/gatherer, and did not have mercenaries because there was no currency to pay them.


Capitalism is about 200 years old, numskull.  Humans are about 200,000 years old.  They were hunter/gatherers until about 9000 years ago.  Money wasn't invented until about 2500 years ago.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 7, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> What royal family was Sam Walton from?


Bill Gates, Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckerberg, Warren Buffet, Larry Ellison, Larry page, Michael Bloomberg, Michael Dell, yada, yada, yada.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 7, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> You just have no idea at all what capitalism or socialism is.
> You think that capitalism is the little entrepreneur, trying to make a market niche.
> And you think socialism is central planning.
> Both are totally wrong.
> ...


Everything you believe is a lie.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 7, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Since the Trabants were made by capitalist East Germans, then the people never had any say.
> But I think the Trabant was an excellent car solution.
> Rust proof plastic fenders, fuel efficient 2 stroke engine, etc.


The East Germans were capitalists!?


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 7, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> For there to be communism or socialism, the people who are producing the excess production that can go into public enterprise, then have to equally share the rewards.  Did that happen in the USSR?  No, so then it was not communism or socialism.


So communism is like a triangle with four sides.  It can never exist.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 7, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> There is no communist country, but countries like Sweden do have large socialist investment by government into enterprise, and they the whole population of the country benefits from the dividends from these investments.
> It would be like in the US, instead of selling oil leases to private companies, if the feds drilled, refined, and sold it, with the taxpayers getting all the profits.


Sweden stopped doing that because their standard of living was going down the tubes.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 7, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> When were the Nazis ever NOT free market?
> Under Hitler in the 1930s and 40s, there was no state control of any markets.
> About the only real thing Hitler did was good, which was to prevent wealth from leaving the country.
> Lots of US companies like GM, Std Oil, etc.,  thrived in the ultra capitalism of the German fascists.
> Fascists are the wealthy elite, and the exact opposite of communists or socialists.


Germany wasn't a free market even before the NAZIs took over, and afterwards the NAZIs had their own 5 year plans, social planning, the whole nine yards.  One thing they definitely did not have is a free market.  Fascism isn't capitalism, moron.  It's socialist.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 7, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Because US war crimes included bombing North Korea into the stone age 70 years ago while US capitalists backed a military dictator in South Korea none of which would have happened if the US army had not blocked free elections in Korea in 1945.*
> 
> United States Army Military Government in Korea - Wikipedia
> 
> "Popular discontent stemmed from the U.S. Military Government's support of the Japanese colonial government; then once removed, keeping the former Japanese governors on as advisors; by ignoring, censoring and forcibly disbanding the functional and popular People's Republic of Korea (PRK); and finally by supporting United Nations elections that divided the country.[2]"



*Because US war crimes included bombing North Korea into the stone age 70 years ago*

We bombed Japan into the stone age almost 80 years ago. Why is North Korea still in the stone age?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 7, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "Why is capitalism the culprit here? All of humanity’s resources have been divided amongst one percent of the world’s population. These people hoard more than 50 percent of the world’s wealth.



That's awful!!

Now where did capitalism kill 5 million from lack of clean water?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 7, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Ask you orange god.
> 
> Stupid bitch.



He's not here, whining on this thread, you are. Silly moron.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 7, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Because rich parasites bribe government for lower taxes thereby privatizing profits and socializing costs.



You can't rely on government, but you want them 100% in control?
You're a special kind of stupid, aren't you?


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 7, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> That's awful!!
> 
> Now where did capitalism kill 5 million from lack of clean water?


Conclusions
The failure to meet basic human needs for water is widely acknowledged to be a major development failure of the 20th century. Yet efforts to provide universal coverage for water and sanitation continue to be largely rhetorical and piecemeal. The price for this failure will be paid by the poorest populations of the world in sickness, lost educational and employment opportunities, and for a staggeringly large number of people, early death. Even if the official United Nations Millennium Goals set for water are met – which is unlikely given the current level of commitments by national governments and international aid agencies – as many as 76 million people will die by 2020 of preventable water-related diseases. This is morally unacceptable in a world that values equity and decency, but at the present time, it appears unavoidable unless we rethink our approach to providing water and sanitation services and redouble international efforts to aid those lacking this most basic of human needs.


			https://pacinst.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/water_related_deaths_report3.pdf


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 7, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> You can't rely on government, but you want them 100% in control?
> You're a special kind of stupid, aren't you?


Only the "ignorant, hypocritical morons on the right-wing" keep alleging that while insisting on the Big Government, nanny-Statism of alleged wars on crime, drugs, and terror.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 7, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> Conclusions
> The failure to meet basic human needs for water is widely acknowledged to be a major development failure of the 20th century. Yet efforts to provide universal coverage for water and sanitation continue to be largely rhetorical and piecemeal. The price for this failure will be paid by the poorest populations of the world in sickness, lost educational and employment opportunities, and for a staggeringly large number of people, early death. Even if the official United Nations Millennium Goals set for water are met – which is unlikely given the current level of commitments by national governments and international aid agencies – as many as 76 million people will die by 2020 of preventable water-related diseases. This is morally unacceptable in a world that values equity and decency, but at the present time, it appears unavoidable unless we rethink our approach to providing water and sanitation services and redouble international efforts to aid those lacking this most basic of human needs.
> 
> 
> https://pacinst.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/water_related_deaths_report3.pdf



Where did capitalism kill 5 million from lack of clean water?


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 7, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Where did capitalism kill 5 million from lack of clean water?


Capitalism failed to improve their standard of living.  That is why infrastructure in the US is important.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 7, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *The meaning of "they would use force if unrestrained" means you try to prevent their use of force.*
> 
> So which capitalists used force? When?
> 
> ...



Yes, buying shelf space is the use of illegal force.
It is done with money instead of weapons, but when it comes down to it, it is using the guns carried by police, to enforce an illegal policy.
All anti trust, monopolies, union busting, offshoring slave labor, child labor, etc., is illegal use of force.
When you but companies under by illegal dumping, so that you can then double the price after the competition is bankrupt, that is the illegal use of force.
Learn something about law.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 7, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Lower prices? You can't just force them to pay your higher prices?



Yes you can.
Illegal low prices temporarily, in order to put the competition out of business is entirely criminal.
Look up "dumping", how it is used to commit crimes, and is inherently illegal as well as violations of US law.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 7, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> You can't rely on government, but you want them 100% in control?
> You're a special kind of stupid, aren't you?



Socialism does not put government into control.
In a democratic republic, the people control the government.
And the reason the people do not control the government now is the same reason the people lost control over the government in Germany in 1933.
The wealthy elite put so much money into false political propaganda, the people lost control.
If we had more socialist industry, there would be less funds in the hand of the corrupt, wealthy, elite.
They corrupt, wealthy, elite controlling government is the problem, not the government itself.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 7, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Yes, buying shelf space is the use of illegal force.
> It is done with money instead of weapons, but when it comes down to it, it is using the guns carried by police, to enforce an illegal policy.
> All anti trust, monopolies, union busting, offshoring slave labor, child labor, etc., is illegal use of force.
> When you but companies under by illegal dumping, so that you can then double the price after the competition is bankrupt, that is the illegal use of force.
> Learn something about law.



*Yes, buying shelf space is the use of illegal force.*

Hilarious!!!

*It is done with money instead of weapons, but when it comes down to it, it is using the guns carried by police, to enforce an illegal policy.*

How are the cops enforcing it?

*When you but companies under by illegal dumping, so that you can then double the price *

Who did that? Post specifics.

*Learn something about law.*

I will!!
As soon as I stop laughing at your idiocy.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 7, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *Yes, buying shelf space is the use of illegal force.*
> 
> Hilarious!!!
> 
> ...



You have a lot to learn.
You could start with this:





__





						HISTORY OF ANTI-DUMPING LAWS
					

HISTORY OF ANTI DUMPING LAWS, Customs  Import  Export  SEZ



					www.taxmanagementindia.com


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 7, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Yes you can.
> Illegal low prices temporarily, in order to put the competition out of business is entirely criminal.
> Look up "dumping", how it is used to commit crimes, and is inherently illegal as well as violations of US law.



*Yes you can.*

No you can't.

*Illegal low prices temporarily, in order to put the competition out of business is entirely criminal.*

Were Walmart low prices illegal?
After their competition went out of business, did Walmart raise prices? Link?

*Look up "dumping", how it is used to commit crimes*

_Dumping is a violation of fair trade practices, involving selling of goods in the U.S. market at prices lower than the prices at which comparable goods are sold in the domestic market of the exporter. These sales must cause or threaten material injury to a competing U.S. industry._

Doesn't sound like Walmart......or Microsoft. Try again?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 7, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> You have a lot to learn.
> You could start with this:
> 
> 
> ...



Sounds serious!!!

How many times has Walmart been charged with dumping? Or Microsoft?

Love the article from India. DURR.........


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 7, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> Conclusions
> The failure to meet basic human needs for water is widely acknowledged to be a major development failure of the 20th century. Yet efforts to provide universal coverage for water and sanitation continue to be largely rhetorical and piecemeal. The price for this failure will be paid by the poorest populations of the world in sickness, lost educational and employment opportunities, and for a staggeringly large number of people, early death. Even if the official United Nations Millennium Goals set for water are met – which is unlikely given the current level of commitments by national governments and international aid agencies – as many as 76 million people will die by 2020 of preventable water-related diseases. This is morally unacceptable in a world that values equity and decency, but at the present time, it appears unavoidable unless we rethink our approach to providing water and sanitation services and redouble international efforts to aid those lacking this most basic of human needs.
> 
> 
> https://pacinst.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/water_related_deaths_report3.pdf


Our government isn't trying to provide clean water for every shithole in AFrica.  That's not its job.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 7, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Socialism does not put government into control.
> In a democratic republic, the people control the government.









Rigby5 said:


> And the reason the people do not control the government now is the same reason the people lost control over the government in Germany in 1933.
> The wealthy elite put so much money into false political propaganda, the people lost control.
> If we had more socialist industry, there would be less funds in the hand of the corrupt, wealthy, elite.
> They corrupt, wealthy, elite controlling government is the problem, not the government itself.



Horseshit.


----------



## Oddball (Nov 7, 2021)

Man, the combination of economic illiteracy and plain old stoopit on this thread is making my head hurt.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 7, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *Yes you can.*
> 
> No you can't.
> 
> ...



Wrong.
Walmart illegally was dumping Chinese goods at below legal mark up levels.
Microsoft did the same thing with its software.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 7, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Wrong.
> Walmart illegally was dumping Chinese goods at below legal mark up levels.
> Microsoft did the same thing with its software.



*Walmart illegally was dumping Chinese goods at below legal mark up levels.*

Cool story. Post the case. 

*Microsoft did the same thing with its software.*

Software dumping? Is that even a thing?


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 7, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Our government isn't trying to provide clean water for every shithole in AFrica.  That's not its job.


Capitalism failed them so the socialism of Government needs to step up to the plate.  Infrastructure matters.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 7, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> Capitalism failed them so the socialism of Government needs to step up to the plate.  Infrastructure matters.


Why do you imagine Americans should be on the hook for providing Africans with clean water?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 7, 2021)

Orangecat said:


> Capitalism is an economic system and democracy is a political system. Comparing the two as if they are competing ideologies is the height of indoctrinated naivety.


Capitalism and democracy are prime factors of political economy, a discipline that began in 18th century moral philosophy as an attempt to study production and trade and their relations with law, custom, and government. 

The former relies on a top-down, authoritarian, one dollar-one vote ideology designed to enrich a small minority of society at the expense of a much larger majority. 

Democracy, on the other hand, relies on one person-one vote to organize society for the benefit a majority of its members. 

Can you spot the inherent competition between one dollar-one vote and one person-one vote or does your indoctrination blind you?

Political economy - Wikipedia


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 7, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> How are western capitalists forcing 3rd world countries to adopt socialist policies?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 7, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> How is mineral, oil and gas extraction making any country poorer?


Can't figure that one out, Trump?
Privatized profits.
Socialized costs.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 7, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Can't figure that one out, Trump?
> Privatized profits.
> Socialized costs.


Trump did that in Nigeria?


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 7, 2021)

georgephillip said:


>


what policies did Trump force African countries to adopt?


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 7, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Capitalism and democracy are prime factors of political economy, a discipline that began in 18th century moral philosophy as an attempt to study production and trade and their relations with law, custom, and government.
> 
> The former relies on a top-down, authoritarian, one dollar-one vote ideology designed to enrich a small minority of society at the expense of a much larger majority.
> 
> ...


The former does a lot better job and promotes freedom wherever it is observed.  The later promotes organized plunder.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 7, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> Government is socialism.
> 
> _If liberty and equality are chiefly to be found in democracy, they will be best attained when all persons alike share in government to the utmost._--Aristotle


*"Socialism* is an economic and political system where workers own the general means of production (i. e. farms, factories, tools, and raw materials). 

*"This can be achieved through decentralized and direct worker-ownership or centralized state-ownership of the means of production. *

"This is different from capitalism, where the means of production are privately owned by capital holders"

Socialism - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 7, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> The first sentence is correct, but how does it reflect positively on either government nor socialism? Both are founded on coercion.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...30/tired-of-capitalism-lets-try-basic-income/

"By now, it is well established that capitalism is fundamentally built upon threats of force. 

*"As libertarian philosophers Robert Nozick and Matt Zwolinski have explained, the only way to turn unowned natural resources (such as land, minerals and other goods) into privately owned property is by violently preventing all others from using them.* 

"This one-sided exclusion destroys freedom of movement and cuts many people off from the things that they need to survive."


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 7, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...30/tired-of-capitalism-lets-try-basic-income/
> 
> "By now, it is well established that capitalism is fundamentally built upon threats of force.
> 
> ...


All government is built on force, dumbass.  Government is nothing more than the monopoly on force.  How can anyone who supports communism be opposed to the use of force?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 7, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> ny successful business is always run be a competent few. Allowing morons like you to have a say in how a business is run is the road to bankruptcy.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 7, 2021)

georgephillip said:


>


YEs, Atlantic City casinos took a huge hit when every other state in the union legalized gambling.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 7, 2021)

Natural Citizen said:


> t's actually the followers of Keynes who cause the most problems. They're far worse than John Maynard himself ever was.


Is this one of your "followers of Keynes"?
If so, you should read some recent economic history?




Milton Friedman on capitalism as a profit AND loss system


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 7, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *"Socialism* is an economic and political system where workers own the general means of production (i. e. farms, factories, tools, and raw materials).
> 
> *"This can be achieved through decentralized and direct worker-ownership or centralized state-ownership of the means of production. *
> 
> ...


I may need to argue the definition on that site. 

Socialism is about power not capital.  Capitalism is about capital not power.  Thus, Government is socialism.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 7, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *Walmart illegally was dumping Chinese goods at below legal mark up levels.*
> 
> Cool story. Post the case.
> 
> ...



Europe have a better legal system than the US, so Microsoft was sued in European courts and required to not build their web browser into the OS.
But they tried.
Never been a company as criminal as Microsoft.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 7, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> I may need to argue the definition on that site.
> 
> Socialism is about power not capital.  Capitalism is about capital not power.  Thus, Government is socialism.



definition of socialism:

{... a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned *or regulated by* the community as a whole. ...}

So anyone claiming socialism requires everything to be government owned, is wrong.
The US has trade regulations on all means of production, so then is socialist.
We just are not very good at it, and we need more collective enterprise, like oil and health care.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 7, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Europe have a better legal system than the US, so Microsoft was sued in European courts and required to not build their web browser into the OS.
> But they tried.
> Never been a company as criminal as Microsoft.



No Walmart case?
No case against Microsoft for software dumping?

Man, you're overwhelming me with all the evidence for your claims.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 7, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> No Walmart case?
> No case against Microsoft for software dumping?
> 
> Man, you're overwhelming me with all the evidence for your claims.



The European case against MS building the web browser into Windows was a proven dumping case.
MS was going to give the browser away until the competition was dead, then charge for it again.

With Walmart, I don't know there has ever been a court case to prove it?
How would we know if China was dumping or not?
I believe they have been, especially over solar, but that is not proof.


----------



## dblack (Nov 7, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Europe have a better legal system than the US, so Microsoft was sued in European courts and required to not build their web browser into the OS.
> But they tried.
> Never been a company as criminal as Microsoft.


"Criminal" for building a web browser into their OS? Those bastards! They should all get life sentences.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 7, 2021)

dblack said:


> "Criminal" for building a web browser into their OS? Those bastards! They should all get life sentences.











						European Regulators Fine Microsoft, Then Promise to Do Better (Published 2013)
					

In announcing a $732 million penalty, regulators said they had been “naïve” to let the company monitor its own adherence to an antitrust settlement.




					www.nytimes.com
				




{...
By James Kanter

March 6, 2013
BRUSSELS — The European Union fined Microsoft $732 million on Wednesday for failing to respect an antitrust settlement with regulators. But in a highly unusual mea culpa, the European Union’s top antitrust regulator said that his department bore some of the responsibility for Microsoft’s failure to respect a settlement that caused the fine.
Joaquín Almunia, the European Union competition commissioner, said the bloc had been “naïve” to put Microsoft in charge of monitoring its adherence to the deal it agreed to in 2009, when his predecessor let the company escape a fine in exchange for offering users of its Windows software a wider choice of Internet browsers.
Mr. Almunia insisted that the enforcement of settlements could be sufficiently strengthened to ensure that companies abide by their pledges, and he signaled that he would not retreat from his goal to use such deals to avoid lengthy legal battles with major companies in swiftly evolving technology markets.
Settlements “allow for rapid solutions to competition problems,” Mr. Almunia said. “Of course such decisions require strict compliance” and the “failure to comply is a very serious infringement that must be sanctioned accordingly.”
...}


----------



## dblack (Nov 7, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> European Regulators Fine Microsoft, Then Promise to Do Better (Published 2013)
> 
> 
> In announcing a $732 million penalty, regulators said they had been “naïve” to let the company monitor its own adherence to an antitrust settlement.
> ...


Yeah. Whacky shit.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 7, 2021)

{...
By lining its shelves with its own in-house brands, Wal-Mart began competing directly, on its own shelves, with its national, household brand-name suppliers. "It makes them more efficient," argues Ray Bracy, Wal-Mart's vice president of international corporate affairs. "I suppose you could suggest that they would like to not have that competition. But it makes them better."

The development of Wal-Mart's house brands proved to be a watershed. Consumer surveys had established that Americans cared less and less about buying national brands: Low price trumped brand loyalty. In the period following Sam Walton's death, when Wal-Mart's sales slowed and its stock price began to stagnate, this consumer trend freed the company to ramp up the production of its house brands through unbranded suppliers in China, who now had privileged access to Wal-Mart's 3,500 stores across America. The result was that Wal-Mart became its own de facto manufacturer, developing and designing products according to the taste of its customers, as analyzed by Wal-Mart's supercomputer. Profits soared.

Privately, long-time U.S. suppliers expressed dismay. "They invaded our core business model," said one apparel maker, requesting that his name be withheld. "Wal-Mart seems intent on managing the total product life cycle." If the competitive pressures of Wal-Mart's store brands continue, he said he would close his American factories, abandon his own brand, and try to solicit Wal-Mart's private label business in China. "We call it 'the race to the bottom,'" he asserted. "It's sad because I see that productivity increases [in America] are still possible through automation. There's room for improved efficiency. But it's impossible [to stay here] with retailers going for cheap Chinese labor."

By now, many American manufacturers, such as the apparel supplier, have little choice but to redefine themselves as "branded distributors" for overseas goods. In other words, instead of making their own products, they use their own brand names to market Chinese-made goods to retailers. They eke out profits by outsourcing production and marketing that production. The process is virtually the final step in the surrender to what Duke University Professor Gary Gereffi calls the Wal-Mart-China "joint venture."

For several years, Wal-Mart has been the single largest U.S. importer of Chinese consumer goods, surpassing the trade volume of entire countries, such as Germany and Russia. Global sourcing is now fully integrated into the company's operations -- giving Wal-Mart enormous leverage worldwide. Foreign products account for nearly all of Wal-Mart's trumpeted low opening price point goods.

During regularly scheduled conference calls with Wall Street analysts, Lee Scott, Wal-Mart CEO since 2000, touts global sourcing as the key to increasing company profits and continuing its expansion.

"No one can compete with China. Such efficiency, such manpower," said Frank Yuan, the former middleman who did business with Wal-Mart, and who now heads an international apparel trade show. "If you look at [Wal-Mart's] shoes or housewares, 80 or 90 percent is coming out of China. And apparel is not as big as it should be." After U.S. quotas on textile imports expire on Jan. 1, 2005, Yuan expects imports from China to rise to 80 percent of the apparel market.

,,,}





__





						Secrets - Wal-Mart And China - A Joint Venture | Is Wal-Mart Good For America? | FRONTLINE | PBS
					





					www.pbs.org


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 7, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> The European case against MS building the web browser into Windows was a proven dumping case.
> MS was going to give the browser away until the competition was dead, then charge for it again.
> 
> With Walmart, I don't know there has ever been a court case to prove it?
> ...



*The European case against MS building the web browser into Windows was a proven dumping case.*

You have a link where they call it dumping?

*MS was going to give the browser away until the competition was dead, then charge for it again.*

Sounds awful!! You have any examples where anyone did that?

*With Walmart, I don't know there has ever been a court case to prove it?*

Any dumping case brought to the FTC?

*How would we know if China was dumping or not?*

You made the claim, you have no evidence?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 7, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> The result was that Wal-Mart became its own de facto manufacturer, developing and designing products according to the taste of its customers, as analyzed by Wal-Mart's supercomputer. Profits soared.



OMG!!!! Designing cheaper products that their customers wanted.









						You Bastards Kyle Broflovski Sticker - You Bastards Kyle Broflovski South Park - Discover & Share GIFs
					

Click to view the GIF




					tenor.com


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 7, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> OMG!!!! Designing cheaper products that their customers wanted.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You miss the point, so I will try to condense.
{...
"No one can compete with China. Such efficiency, such manpower," said Frank Yuan, the former middleman who did business with Wal-Mart, and who now heads an international apparel trade show. "If you look at [Wal-Mart's] shoes or housewares, 80 or 90 percent is coming out of China.
...}
China is using slave labor.
They arrest millions of political or religious dissidents, like Fallong Gong or Uighurs, and for them to do factory work 12 hours a day for food.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 7, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *The European case against MS building the web browser into Windows was a proven dumping case.*
> 
> You have a link where they call it dumping?
> 
> ...



Giving something for free so that the competition is forced out of business, is the exact definition of dumping.
Why do you think Europe sued and won?
If you want to call it something else, feel free.
But that is what dumping is.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 8, 2021)

struth said:


> i didn’t say they profited off them…they make money by taking it by force from citizens


*Government takes money from citizens by force through taxation. Regardless of your objections to the cost of organizing society, government taxes don't feed a population of parasitic shareholders by charging access and user fees the way for-profit corporations do.*

Error - Cookies Turned Off

"To prevent unearned income (economic rent) from adding to the economy's cost of living and doing business, potentially rent-yielding infrastructure should be kept in the public domain as a 'fourth factor of production.' 

"Instead of _rentiers_ making a profit by charging access fees and user fees, the return to public investment should take the form of reducing the economy's overall price structure."


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 8, 2021)

struth said:


> as far as roads, the govt operates tolls as well…by the way


Thanks for that information.
I wasn't aware of government's involvement in private roadways.

Who owns and operates The Toll Roads? | The Toll Roads


----------



## struth (Nov 8, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Government takes money from citizens by force through taxation. Regardless of your objections to the cost of organizing society, government taxes don't feed a population of parasitic shareholders by charging access and user fees the way for-profit corporations do.*
> 
> Error - Cookies Turned Off
> 
> ...


yes, I agree Govt takes money by force....oh and there are plenty of parasites in Govt...shareholders in a company are parastic?  How so?  Do you know what a shareholder is?    Shareholders, are owners of a company..without an owner, there may very well be no company at all


----------



## struth (Nov 8, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Thanks for that information.
> I wasn't aware of government's involvement in private roadways.
> 
> Who owns and operates The Toll Roads? | The Toll Roads


I am not talking about "private roads" - I am talking about state roads, that have tolls.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 8, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> You miss the point, so I will try to condense.
> {...
> "No one can compete with China. Such efficiency, such manpower," said Frank Yuan, the former middleman who did business with Wal-Mart, and who now heads an international apparel trade show. "If you look at [Wal-Mart's] shoes or housewares, 80 or 90 percent is coming out of China.
> ...}
> ...



Yeah, China sucks.
Still waiting for you to post any proof of any of your claims re: dumping


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 8, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Giving something for free so that the competition is forced out of business, is the exact definition of dumping.
> Why do you think Europe sued and won?
> If you want to call it something else, feel free.
> But that is what dumping is.



*Giving something for free so that the competition is forced out of business, is the exact definition of dumping.*

Prove it.
Post a law that says that.

*Why do you think Europe sued and won?*

They hate American companies.

*If you want to call it something else, feel free.*

You mean if I want to point out your error, I should feel free.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 8, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Yeah, China sucks.
> Still waiting for you to post any proof of any of your claims re: dumping


Right-wingers seem the most like the (right-wing) Chinese.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 8, 2021)

struth said:


> I am not talking about "private roads" - I am talking about state roads, that have tolls.



State toll roads are an awful and regressive idea in my opinion.
It is not like people WANT to use them, but have to because housing is too expensive near their job.
People should pay based on ability to pay, not how much they are forced to use that aspect of the infrastructure.


----------



## dblack (Nov 8, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> People should pay based on ability to pay ...



Yes. Let's soak the people with ability. Those greedy bastards, hoarding all the ability to themselves. They should give me free shit.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 8, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Yeah, China sucks.
> Still waiting for you to post any proof of any of your claims re: dumping



Why not do a search?
Back when Solyndra was going under, there were plenty of articles of how that was due to China dumping solar in the US.
But here was the first hit I got, China dumping in India.








						How China dumps its products in India
					

Chinese manufacturers produce different qualities of a product for different markets including poor quality cheap goods for low-income countries.




					www.timesnownews.com


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 8, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *Giving something for free so that the competition is forced out of business, is the exact definition of dumping.*
> 
> Prove it.
> Post a law that says that.
> ...



That silly because dumping is not the legal term for it.
That is the short slang for what can be a somewhat complex process.
But here is a journalist giving his opinion:
{...
Dumping is a practice of selling goods in a foreign country at a price below their domestic selling price, after allowing for differences accruing from transportation expenses, tariffs, and other cost justifications. Many governments view the activity as an unfair competitive practice and frequently expose those engaged in dumping to an anti-dumping duty. Dumping duty is an additional import duty imposed to offset the effect of dumping which is found to materially injure the domestic industry. 
...}
The point of dumping is to benefit your industry by increasing its volume, while harming foreign companies by under cutting their prices and making their industries too unprofitable to be sustainable.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 8, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Why not do a search?



Why would I do a search to prove your silly claims?

Now, about Walmart dumping? LOL!


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 8, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> That silly because dumping is not the legal term for it.
> That is the short slang for what can be a somewhat complex process.
> But here is a journalist giving his opinion:
> {...
> ...



*That silly because dumping is not the legal term for it.*

You brought up dumping and you aren't posting the correct legal term?

*Dumping is a practice of selling goods in a foreign country at a price below their domestic selling price*

Cool. So show where Walmart or Microsoft did that.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 8, 2021)

dblack said:


> Yes. Let's soak the people with ability. Those greedy bastards, hoarding all the ability to themselves. They should give me free shit.



Well obviously people should not be penalized just for being wealthy, but if the money is needed for infrastructure and has to come from somewhere, it is better if it comes from those who first of all have profited from the infrastructure the most, and second are harmed the least by paying, because they have more excess money laying around.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 8, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Why would I do a search to prove your silly claims?
> 
> Now, about Walmart dumping? LOL!



China dumping is notorious.
Its not my claim, but a well known fact for decades.
We simply are having a conversation, and if you don't even know about Chinese dumping, then you are ignorant and need to catch up.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 8, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> China dumping is notorious.
> Its not my claim, but a well known fact for decades.
> We simply are having a conversation, and if you don't even know about Chinese dumping, then you are ignorant and need to catch up.


*
China dumping is notorious.*

You said Walmart had illegally low prices. 
Are you ever going to post proof?


----------



## dblack (Nov 8, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Well obviously people should not be penalized just for being wealthy, but if the money is needed for infrastructure and has to come from somewhere, it is better if it comes from those who first of all have profited from the infrastructure the most, and second are harmed the least by paying, because they have more excess money laying around.


Exactly. No point in stealing from the poor. They haven't got shit. And the money is needed.

But, do you wonder if that will cause problems in the long run? What if people with ability start pretending they don't have any ability, to avoid becoming targets?


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 8, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *That silly because dumping is not the legal term for it.*
> 
> You brought up dumping and you aren't posting the correct legal term?
> 
> ...



I already showed Microsoft getting caught for dumping in Europe.
China was well known for dumping solar products.
Walmart used to be "buy USA", but now is 80% Chinese, and since China is notorious for dumping, then Walmart obviously is likely then facilitating their dumping.


----------



## themirrorthief (Nov 8, 2021)

kaz said:


> The IRS.   The top 20% pay virtually all taxes


actually  most  taxesare  paid  when  you  spend a dollar  90  percent  of  every  dollar  covers  the  taxes  put  on  retail  outlets    if  you  spend  you  pay  taxes  and  a lot  of  taxes


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 8, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *China dumping is notorious.*
> 
> You said Walmart had illegally low prices.
> Are you ever going to post proof?



I never said that.
I just said it was likely, given that China is so notorious for dumping, and how WalMart went from being anti-import to being almost entirely Chinese imports.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 8, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> I already showed Microsoft getting caught for dumping in Europe.
> China was well known for dumping solar products.
> Walmart used to be "buy USA", but now is 80% Chinese, and since China is notorious for dumping, then Walmart obviously is likely then facilitating their dumping.



*I already showed Microsoft getting caught for dumping in Europe.*

No you didn't, because giving away their browser doesn't fit the definition.

*Walmart used to be "buy USA", but now is 80% Chinese, and since China is notorious for dumping, then Walmart obviously is likely then facilitating their dumping.*

China only sells cheap stuff to Walmart? LOL!


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 8, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> I never said that.
> I just said it was likely, given that China is so notorious for dumping, and how WalMart went from being anti-import to being almost entirely Chinese imports.








You weren't saying Walmart was dumping?
You weren't saying Walmart had illegal low prices?


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 8, 2021)

dblack said:


> Exactly. No point in stealing from the poor. They haven't got shit. And the money is needed.
> 
> But, do you wonder if that will cause problems in the long run? What if people with ability start pretending they don't have any ability, to avoid becoming targets?



Well of course that is what has happened.
The tax codes are so full of loop holes that the wealthy can easily pay less tax than the poor.
That is what makes a flat tax with a large personal exemption appealing.
The large personal exemption would give the poor a break on their cost of living, without allowing for all those loopholes the wealthy use now.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 8, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Well of course that is what has happened.
> The tax codes are so full of loop holes that the wealthy can easily pay less tax than the poor.
> That is what makes a flat tax with a large personal exemption appealing.
> The large personal exemption would give the poor a break on their cost of living, without allowing for all those loopholes the wealthy use now.



*The tax codes are so full of loop holes that the wealthy can easily pay less tax than the poor.*

How? Post those easy loop holes. And define the poor.


----------



## dblack (Nov 8, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Well of course that is what has happened.
> The tax codes are so full of loop holes that the wealthy can easily pay less tax than the poor.
> That is what makes a flat tax with a large personal exemption appealing.
> The large personal exemption would give the poor a break on their cost of living, without allowing for all those loopholes the wealthy use now.


I'm not talking about loopholes. I'm asking if you've considered what will happen if people with ability get tired of floating everyone else and just stop?


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 8, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *I already showed Microsoft getting caught for dumping in Europe.*
> 
> No you didn't, because giving away their browser doesn't fit the definition.
> 
> ...



Yes, giving away their browser does fit the definition.
There was no reason for MS to give away their browser except to put all the browser companies out of business.
And MS has done that before, giving away their browser in order to destroy the competition, and then jack the price back up even higher after the competition is gone.  That is exactly what dumping is.

WalMart likely is now secretly owned BY China, and since China is notorious for dumping, likely they use WalMart to launder their actions by just using the domestic WalMart name.
I already quoted and linked articles explaining this.
Aren't you reading any of that?
The article explained how many US labels are not just fronts for China.
It used Levi as one of its examples.
And no one would mind if China did not cheat, but they do.
They use slave labor, dumping, monopolies, copyright theft, copycat frauds, or anything they can.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 8, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Yes, giving away their browser does fit the definition.
> There was no reason for MS to give away their browser except to put all the browser companies out of business.
> And MS has done that before, giving away their browser in order to destroy the competition, and then jack the price back up even higher after the competition is gone.  That is exactly what dumping is.
> 
> ...



*Yes, giving away their browser does fit the definition.*

Post the European dumping case.

*And MS has done that before, giving away their browser in order to destroy the competition, and then jack the price back up even higher after the competition is gone.  That is exactly what dumping is.*

How much do they charge for their browser now?

*WalMart likely is now secretly owned BY China, *

It's more likely that you're owned by China.

*I already quoted and linked articles explaining this.
Aren't you reading any of that?*

None of your articles explained that Walmart was guilty of dumping.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 8, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> View attachment 561773
> 
> You weren't saying Walmart was dumping?
> You weren't saying Walmart had illegal low prices?



Not sure what case I had in mind at that moment.
Must have found something in a search, but its not something I care to remember.
But obviously China is notorious for dumping, China now essentially owns WalMart and is expanding now almost entirely outside the US, so then obviously WalMart then is going to be dumping for China.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 8, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *The tax codes are so full of loop holes that the wealthy can easily pay less tax than the poor.*
> 
> How? Post those easy loop holes. And define the poor.



The poor are those who can not afford essentials, like health care.
One loophole is that the wealthy can pay themselves in stock options instead of cash, then went they sell, that profit is taxed at the 15 or 20% capital gains rate instead of the 40% a normal person with that much income would or should be paying.
Another loophole is that while you normally can only write off mortgage interest, with rental properties you can also depreciate on an accelerated schedule.  Then after 5 years when you have used up most of the depreciation allowance, you can do a 1031 exchange with another landlord, and do it all again, without having to repay your depreciation write offs.
Those are the easiest and most obvious, but there are millions of them, and they can get extremely complex.
The wealthy then in general are not paying very much in taxes.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 8, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *Yes, giving away their browser does fit the definition.*
> 
> Post the European dumping case.
> 
> ...



There is no point is looking for the actual case again.
I brought up a link that mentioned it, so we all know it happened, and the link showed how MS was guilty of not following that judgement.

All browsers are free now because MS screwed up the market so badly.
But that is also why we have such BAD web browsers.
Since you do not program, you would not know how bad JavaScript is, but that is the interface all web browsers give the programmers, it is awful, it is 30 years old, and needs to be totally redone.
It is entirely the fault of Microsoft that we do not have much better web browsers and much better browser programming languages.

If I were owned by China, why would I be warning people about China unfair business practices?

The articles said that US companies have become fronts for China.  They showed WalMart was one of them.  And we all know China notoriously is dumping.  So the conclusion about WalMart dumping is a foregone conclusion.  I don't have to give specifics when the odds are that high.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 8, 2021)

dblack said:


> I'm not talking about loopholes. I'm asking if you've considered what will happen if people with ability get tired of floating everyone else and just stop?



The wealthy are not floating everyone.
They control the politicians, so ensure their tax money is spend mostly back on them, like highly profitable military spending.
If you look at where our tax money is spend, it does not look like more than about 25% is military spending, but in reality it may be as much as 75%.
That is because almost all of the interest payments no the national debt is actually past military spending, what is labeled social services hides military spending like GIBill, VA centers, etc.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 8, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> The poor are those who can not afford essentials, like health care.
> One loophole is that the wealthy can pay themselves in stock options instead of cash, then went they sell, that profit is taxed at the 15 or 20% capital gains rate instead of the 40% a normal person with that much income would or should be paying.
> Another loophole is that while you normally can only write off mortgage interest, with rental properties you can also depreciate on an accelerated schedule.  Then after 5 years when you have used up most of the depreciation allowance, you can do a 1031 exchange with another landlord, and do it all again, without having to repay your depreciation write offs.
> Those are the easiest and most obvious, but there are millions of them, and they can get extremely complex.
> The wealthy then in general are not paying very much in taxes.



*One loophole is that the wealthy can pay themselves in stock options instead of cash*

If they get paid $1,000,000 in stock options, they owe income taxes on $1,000,000.
How is that a loophole?

* then went they sell, that profit is taxed at the 15 or 20% capital gains rate *

Yes, the wealthy pay a 15% or 20% capital gains tax rate. Just like you, me or the poor would pay.

*Then after 5 years when you have used up most of the depreciation allowance, you can do a 1031 exchange with another landlord*

How does the 1031 get your capital gain out of your property?

*The wealthy then in general are not paying very much in taxes.*

Not very much? Can you be more specific?


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 8, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Is this one of your "followers of Keynes"?
> If so, you should read some recent economic history?
> 
> 
> ...


What's your point, moron?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 8, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> There is no point is looking for the actual case again.
> I brought up a link that mentioned it, so we all know it happened, and the link showed how MS was guilty of not following that judgement.
> 
> All browsers are free now because MS screwed up the market so badly.
> ...



*There is no point is looking for the actual case again.*

Because you've admitted your error?

*All browsers are free now because MS screwed up the market so badly.*

They were guilty of dumping, because they've been giving away their browser......forever.

So they won't be hiking the price and making unfair profits anytime soon? LOL!!!

*If I were owned by China, why would I be warning people about China unfair business practices?*

Because your stupidity (lies?) makes the anti-China case look bad.

*So the conclusion about WalMart dumping is a foregone conclusion. *

You're lying, again.

*I don't have to give specifics when the odds are that high.*

Proof, such an old-fashioned concept.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 8, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *One loophole is that the wealthy can pay themselves in stock options instead of cash*
> 
> If they get paid $1,000,000 in stock options, they owe income taxes on $1,000,000.
> How is that a loophole?
> ...



Come on, you have to start reading better than that.
I was very clear in explaining that even if they are in a 40% tax bracket normally, when they pay themselves in stock options, then they do not pay 40% tax on that profit, but instead only pay the 15 or 20% capital gains rate instead.
They can hide ALL their salary and profits under these low taxed stock options.
You and I do not have the ability to pay ourselves in stock options.
You have to be on the board of directors or high up, to be able to do that.

With the 1031 exchange, the point is you have used up most of your accelerated depreciation, but by exchanging with another landlord for property of equal value, you get to start over again with full tax depreciation allowance, without having to pay back the previous depreciation you already claimed.
Normally you have to pay back what you hid with depreciation when you sell.  But not with a 1031 exchange.  Your previous depreciation disappears and you get to start over.

When I was poor, I was still always paying a lot of taxes, because my rent included property tax, I could not itemize, etc.
Something like 15 or 20%.
As I made more money, my tax rate increased up to 35% or so, but then I was able to start doing things to decrease my tax burden, like buying rental properties, with lots of write offs.
My tax burden dropped back down to 15 to 20% or less.
Now that I have retired, I pay no taxes, even though I have a good income from rentals and SS.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 8, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *There is no point is looking for the actual case again.*
> 
> Because you've admitted your error?
> 
> ...



Wrong.
The judgement against Microsoft proves I am right.

The internet provided so much advertising revenue, that browsers found alternative income sources to actually selling their product.
That does not mean Microsoft was not illegally dumping and tried to destroy the competition unfairly.

Anyone who claims China is not dumping, obviously has to be lying.
It has been well documented.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 8, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> I was very clear in explaining that even if they are in a 40% tax bracket normally, when they pay themselves in stock options, then they do not pay 40% tax on that profit, but instead only pay the 15 or 20% capital gains rate instead.



Yes, your ignorance was very clear.
If I pay myself in stock options, I pay income tax on the value of those options
at the time they are issued. Capital gains come later, if at all. Your misunderstanding 
of how that actually works is obvious.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 8, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Come on, you have to start reading better than that.
> I was very clear in explaining that even if they are in a 40% tax bracket normally, when they pay themselves in stock options, then they do not pay 40% tax on that profit, but instead only pay the 15 or 20% capital gains rate instead.
> They can hide ALL their salary and profits under these low taxed stock options.
> You and I do not have the ability to pay ourselves in stock options.
> ...



*They can hide ALL their salary and profits under these low taxed stock options.*

Wrong.

*With the 1031 exchange, the point is you have used up most of your accelerated depreciation, but by exchanging with another landlord for property of equal value, you get to start over again with full tax depreciation allowance, without having to pay back the previous depreciation you already claimed.*

And what happens when you eventually realize a gain?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 8, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Wrong.
> The judgement against Microsoft proves I am right.
> 
> The internet provided so much advertising revenue, that browsers found alternative income sources to actually selling their product.
> ...



*The judgement against Microsoft proves I am right.*

Post the judgement. Does it mention dumping?

*Anyone who claims China is not dumping, obviously has to be lying.*

Why are you talking about China? You claimed Walmart dumped.
You claimed Walmart had illegal low prices.

Prove those claims. Stop trying to change the subject.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 8, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Yes, your ignorance was very clear.
> If I pay myself in stock options, I pay income tax on the value of those options
> at the time they are issued. Capital gains come later, if at all. Your misunderstanding
> of how that actually works is obvious.



Wrong.
Stock options have zero value until they are sold.
You are not taxed anything when given stock options.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 8, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *They can hide ALL their salary and profits under these low taxed stock options.*
> 
> Wrong.
> 
> ...



Since real estate always eventually goes up, you do always eventually have a taxed gain when you finally sell, but that is not the point.
The point is poor people do not get this inherent and unearned gain because they can't afford the down payment, and get none of these profits or tax write offs.
You never have to pay back depreciation allowance on 1031 exchange property history.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 8, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Wrong.
> Stock options have zero value until they are sold.
> You are not taxed anything when given stock options.


*
Stock options have zero value until they are sold.*

Wow!

You're an idiot.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 8, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Since real estate always eventually goes up, you do always eventually have a taxed gain when you finally sell, but that is not the point.
> The point is poor people do not get this inherent and unearned gain because they can't afford the down payment, and get none of these profits or tax write offs.
> You never have to pay back depreciation allowance on 1031 exchange property history.



*Since real estate always eventually goes up, you do always eventually have a taxed gain when you finally sell, but that is not the point.*

Paying tax on a gain is the point.

*You never have to pay back depreciation allowance on 1031 exchange property history.*

Prove it.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 8, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *The judgement against Microsoft proves I am right.*
> 
> Post the judgement. Does it mention dumping?
> 
> ...



You really are not paying any attention.
At least one of the articles I linked explained how most US companies, like Levi, as been forced to become an empty shill for China, due to China dumping products so cheaply.  Obviously WalMart does not make products, so can't be doing it itself, but can facilitate it by fronting Chinese products that are dumping.
Now do you get it?

Obviously if Chinese dumping was easy to prove, then the SEC would be prosecuting.
But clearly everyone knows they are.
Only a fool would try to claim they are not.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 8, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> You really are not paying any attention.
> At least one of the articles I linked explained how most US companies, like Levi, as been forced to become an empty shill for China, due to China dumping products so cheaply.  Obviously WalMart does not make products, so can't be doing it itself, but can facilitate it by fronting Chinese products that are dumping.
> Now do you get it?
> 
> ...


*
At least one of the articles I linked explained how most US companies, like Levi, as been forced to become an empty shill for China, due to China dumping products so cheaply. *

In this discussion, I don't give a shit if China is dumping.
You said Walmart was dumping. You said Walmart had illegal low prices.
So prove it already.

*Obviously if Chinese dumping was easy to prove, then the SEC would be prosecuting.*

You can't show proof that China is dumping, does that mean you'll never prove Walmart is? LOL!


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 8, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *Stock options have zero value until they are sold.*
> 
> Wow!
> 
> You're an idiot.



You do not pay tax when you get stock options.
I have been given stock options, and they do not have any value or tax hit when you get them.
All stock options are is the locked in price for if and when you do later decide to buy stock.
If the stock goes down or under, then the options were never of any value, so you could never have been taxed on them.
Just use a real world example.
The company stock is at $10 and you are given the options to buy a hundred shares at $10.
These is no immediate value to that.
It is only if after a year and the stock has gone up, that you can then exercise those options and make a profits.
If the stock doubles then you can make a huge profit.
But regardless of how much you make, you only pay the 15 or 20% capital gains rate.
The value of options depends on the future of the company, like Apple stock went from $1.50 to $150 in about a decade.
(it is still only about $150, but that is because it split many times.)


----------



## dblack (Nov 8, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> The wealthy are not floating everyone.


Call it whatever you like. But the whole "from each according to ability" thing just seems naive. People don't like being used. They'll push back.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 8, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Come on, you have to start reading better than that.
> I was very clear in explaining that even if they are in a 40% tax bracket normally, when they pay themselves in stock options, then they do not pay 40% tax on that profit, but instead only pay the 15 or 20% capital gains rate instead.
> They can hide ALL their salary and profits under these low taxed stock options.
> You and I do not have the ability to pay ourselves in stock options.
> ...



*I was very clear in explaining that even if they are in a 40% tax bracket normally, when they pay themselves in stock options, then they do not pay 40% tax on that profit, but instead only pay the 15 or 20% capital gains rate instead.*

Nope.

_No matter the results of the poll, Musk would have likely started selling millions of shares this quarter. The reason: a looming tax bill of more than $15 billion.

Musk was awarded options in 2012 as part of a compensation plan. Because he doesn’t take a salary or cash bonus, his wealth comes from stock awards and the gains in Tesla’s share price. The 2012 award was for 22.8 million shares at a strike price of $6.24 per share. Tesla shares closed at $1,222.09 on Friday, __meaning his gain on the shares totals just under $28 billion.









						Elon Musk faces a $15 billion tax bill, which is likely the real reason he's selling stock
					

Elon Musk faces a tax bill of over $15 billion in the coming months on stock options, making a sale of Tesla stock this year likely regardless of the Twitter vote.




					www.cnbc.com
				



_
$15 billion taxes on a $28 billion gain is not 15% or 20%.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 8, 2021)

dblack said:


> Call it whatever you like. But the whole "from each according to ability" thing just seems naive. People don't like being used. They'll push back.



The wealthy are the ones who are getting the most out of the system, so then why should they not be paying the most into the system?
There is very little welfare.
Almost all taxes are going to infrastructure improvements the wealthy want and benefit from.

This even is true for foreign aid.
A lot of foreign aid is actually to bring roads and electricity to regions where companies like Coca Cola wants to build a bottling plant.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 8, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *I was very clear in explaining that even if they are in a 40% tax bracket normally, when they pay themselves in stock options, then they do not pay 40% tax on that profit, but instead only pay the 15 or 20% capital gains rate instead.*
> 
> Nope.
> 
> ...



Most likely the journalist simply got the numbers wrong.
Why do you think Musk would have paid himself in stock options if not for the lower tax rate?
Does the journalist get to be paid in stock options?
Of course not, so then the journalist does not really know how it works.

Musk is about to become the first trillionaire.
If a person is making that much money, then what is the a measly $15 billion?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 8, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Most likely the journalist simply got the numbers wrong.
> Why do you think Musk would have paid himself in stock options if not for the lower tax rate?
> Does the journalist get to be paid in stock options?
> Of course not, so then the journalist does not really know how it works.
> ...



*Most likely the journalist simply got the numbers wrong.*

So find a journalist who got it right.

*Why do you think Musk would have paid himself in stock options if not for the lower tax rate?*

Tesla didn't have the cash to pay him that much. Still doesn't.

*If a person is making that much money, then what is the a measly $15 billion?*

Over 50%, not 20%.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 8, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *Most likely the journalist simply got the numbers wrong.*
> 
> So find a journalist who got it right.
> 
> ...



So you don't think he has any other sources of income other than the stock options he was paid 9 years ago?
Why do you think Musk is talking about ending world hunger?
Charity is a common tax write off.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 8, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> So you don't think he has any other sources of income other than the stock options he was paid 9 years ago?
> Why do you think Musk is talking about ending world hunger?
> Charity is a common tax write off.



*So you don't think he has any other sources of income other than the stock options he was paid 9 years ago?*

He had other sources, just not from Tesla.

*Why do you think Musk is talking about ending world hunger?*

Some moron from the UN made a stupid claim.

*Charity is a common tax write off.*

Yup. And?


----------



## kaz (Nov 8, 2021)

themirrorthief said:


> actually  most  taxesare  paid  when  you  spend a dollar  90  percent  of  every  dollar  covers  the  taxes  put  on  retail  outlets    if  you  spend  you  pay  taxes  and  a lot  of  taxes



You're right on the part that whatever taxes are paid by companies and most of the taxes paid by the rich are in items you buy, but the rest of that was unintelligible gibberish, Cowboy


----------



## dblack (Nov 8, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> The wealthy are the ones who are getting the most out of the system, so then why should they not be paying the most into the system?


It doesn't matter. "From each according to his ability" doesn't work. People won't put up with it.

Think of it this way - what if, instead of playing games with the tax code, we just limited their income in some other way (salary caps or whatever)? Let's say we decided doctors were making too much money and capped their income. Do you think that would affect the number and quality of people pursuing a career in medicine? Of course it would - we can argue over how much, but it would definitely negatively impact the supply of doctors.

So, more generally, if we target people according to their ability, it will have a negative impact. Many of the people with ability to spare will refuse to cooperate. They'll move, cheat, hide their economic activities - or just drop out and refuse to contribute. Not all of them, certainly, but enough to have a serious impact on our economy and quality of life.


----------



## struth (Nov 8, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> State toll roads are an awful and regressive idea in my opinion.
> It is not like people WANT to use them, but have to because housing is too expensive near their job.
> People should pay based on ability to pay, not how much they are forced to use that aspect of the infrastructure.


yeah


Rigby5 said:


> Come on, you have to start reading better than that.
> I was very clear in explaining that even if they are in a 40% tax bracket normally, when they pay themselves in stock options, then they do not pay 40% tax on that profit, but instead only pay the 15 or 20% capital gains rate instead.
> They can hide ALL their salary and profits under these low taxed stock options.
> You and I do not have the ability to pay ourselves in stock options.
> ...


well actually you pay nothing, since stock is just nothing until it's actually sold.    Once it's sold, IF, and only IF, it's gone up in value do you pay Cap Gains.

It's actually a interesting way to pay because it gives those folks an incentative to ensure the business does well, and the stock goes up, moreover, it gives people a piece of actual ownership in the company.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 8, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> What the hell is "excess wage?"


"This paper reviews the economic policy debate on the issue how much the prevailing compensation practices in large international banks contributed to the financial instability and how this area should be regulated to prevent similar financial crisis in the future. We show that these issues have little to do with the prevailing banking business mode..."


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 8, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Progs are opposed to free speech, moron. They call it "hate speech." They believe people shouldn't be allowed to publish "racist" speech or the leftwing received wisdom on climate change or Covid.


Progs are opposed to racist crackers trying to push the next Lost Cause onto a majority of Americans. Anyone sufficiently stupid to doubt Covid's or the climate crisis's penchant to kill isn't worth reading.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 8, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "This paper reviews the economic policy debate on the issue how much the prevailing compensation practices in large international banks contributed to the financial instability and how this area should be regulated to prevent similar financial crisis in the future. We show that these issues have little to do with the prevailing banking business mode..."


Apparently you couldn't answer the question.  

The last thing we need is government deciding how much bankers get paid.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 8, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Progs are opposed to racist crackers trying to push the next Lost Cause onto a majority of Americans. Anyone sufficiently stupid to doubt Covid's or the climate crisis's penchant to kill isn't worth reading.


Thanks for admitting that you are opposed to free speech.

BTW, "cracker" is a racist term.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 9, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> That wasn't capitalism's decision. It was a Democrat decision.


All Democrats are Capitalists.


----------



## Captain Caveman (Nov 9, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf
> 
> "Capitalism and democracy follow different logics: unequally distributed property rights on the one hand, equal civic and political rights on the other; profit oriented trade within capitalism in contrast to the search for the common good within democracy; debate, compromise and majority decision-making within democratic politics versus hierarchical decision-making by managers and capital owners.
> 
> ...


So democracy is having a vote so you can vote for a representative to represent you in government, and you think capitalism stops this?

Could you explain this stupidity? I can only assume you haven't a clue what democracy means.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 9, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> All Democrats are Capitalists.


They are all communists.  The Democrat party platform is indistinguishable from the Communist party platform.


----------



## dblack (Nov 9, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> All Democrats are Capitalists.


All humans are mammals.


----------



## dblack (Nov 9, 2021)

Captain Caveman said:


> So democracy is having a vote so you can vote for a representative to represent you in government, and you think capitalism stops this?
> 
> Could you explain this stupidity? I can only assume you haven't a clue what democracy means.


The kind of democracy george advocates is _unlimited_ majority rule. It's not about representation. It's about getting what you want out of others through force.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 9, 2021)

Captain Caveman said:


> So democracy is having a vote so you can vote for a representative to represent you in government, and you think capitalism stops this?


*I know capitalism concentrates more and more wealth into fewer and fewer hands with each passing generation. 

Perhaps you are ignorant about how that gives a small minority of wealthy US voters undue political influence?*
"In the early years of the United States, Thomas Jefferson fought bitterly with Alexander Hamilton over the structure of the U.S. financial system. 

"Jefferson feared that without proper checks and balances, an *aristocratic financial class would wield a disproportionate amount of influence in government and thus erode popular democracy."*

Wealth and Democracy: A Political History of the American Rich


----------



## dblack (Nov 9, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "Jefferson feared that without proper checks and balances, an *aristocratic financial class would wield a disproportionate amount of influence in government and thus erode popular democracy."*


Sorry. Jefferson would have destroyed you. Go back to quoting Groucho.


----------



## Captain Caveman (Nov 9, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *I know capitalism concentrates more and more wealth into fewer and fewer hands with each passing generation.
> 
> Perhaps you are ignorant about how that gives a small minority of wealthy US voters undue political influence?*
> "In the early years of the United States, Thomas Jefferson fought bitterly with Alexander Hamilton over the structure of the U.S. financial system.
> ...


One moment you're on about democracy, now you switch topic to capitalism ??


----------



## Flash (Nov 9, 2021)

Socialism is the goddamn collective taking away the Liberties of individuals.

It may be democratic but it is oppressive.

Democracy can be just as oppressive as any other form of totalitarian government.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 9, 2021)

Flash said:


> Socialism is the goddamn collective taking away the Liberties of individuals.
> 
> It may be democratic but it is oppressive.
> 
> Democracy can be just as oppressive as any other form of totalitarian government.


However, did you reach that conclusion?  Socialism is about equality.  

_The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States._


----------



## dblack (Nov 9, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> However, did you reach that conclusion?  Socialism is about equality.


Yes. Socialism strips everyone of their rights equally.


----------



## struth (Nov 9, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> However, did you reach that conclusion?  Socialism is about equality.
> 
> _The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States._


people equal…in their poverty and slavery to the state


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 9, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> However, did you reach that conclusion?  Socialism is about equality.
> 
> _The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States._


 That's equality before the law, not the equality of results that socialist have on their agenda

Equality isn't freedom, turd brain.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 9, 2021)

dblack said:


> Yes. Socialism strips everyone of their rights equally.


Like this: _The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States._


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 9, 2021)

struth said:


> people equal…in their poverty and slavery to the state


Like this inequality?  _An individual is disqualified for unemployment compensation benefits if the director finds that he or she left his or her most recent work voluntarily without good cause or that he or she has been discharged for misconduct connected with his or her most recent work._


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 9, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> That's equality before the law, not the equality of results that socialist have on their agenda
> 
> Equality isn't freedom, turd brain.


_The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States._


----------



## struth (Nov 9, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> Like this inequality?  _An individual is disqualified for unemployment compensation benefits if the director finds that he or she left his or her most recent work voluntarily without good cause or that he or she has been discharged for misconduct connected with his or her most recent work._


how’s that unequal?  everyone is treated the same under the law. It applies to all that apply 

how would it be equal to give people that get fired for poor behavior or leave a job on their own access to insurance for people that actually need it?

that would be grossly unfair…which in reality is what socialism is all about


----------



## dblack (Nov 9, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> Like this: _The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States._


More like this: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs."

Also known as, "It sucks to have abilities"


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 9, 2021)

struth said:


> how’s that unequal?  everyone is treated the same under the law. It applies to all that apply
> 
> how would it be equal to give people that get fired for poor behavior or leave a job on their own access to insurance for people that actually need it?
> 
> that would be grossly unfair…which in reality is what socialism is all about


What are you talking about?  How is everyone treated the same under the law?  The law is employment at the will of either party not just the wealthiest parties under our form of Capitalism. 

There can be no legal or moral prejudice for faithfully executing our own laws.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 9, 2021)

dblack said:


> More like this: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs."


_“The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread.”_

― Anatole France


----------



## struth (Nov 9, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> What are you talking about?  How is everyone treated the same under the law?  The law is employment at the will of either party not just the wealthiest parties under our form of Capitalism.
> 
> There can be no legal or moral prejudice for faithfully executing our own laws.


 because even the wealthy can. be employed at will…not sure where it says any different. 

everyone can be employed on an at-will bases and can be fired for cause by their employer absent a contract.  All races, all cases.  That equality under the law.

you want the law to be different so that you can be get unemployment insurance claims for being fired for cause, or because you decided you not longer want to work…that’s not only insurance laws are written currently.  That doesn’t mean the current law isn’t equally applicable.  nobody of any class can get unemployed insurance for those reasons.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 9, 2021)

struth said:


> because even the wealthy can. be employed at will…not sure where it says any different.
> 
> everyone can be employed on an at-will bases and can be fired for cause by their employer absent a contract.  All races, all cases.  That equality under the law.
> 
> you want the law to be different so that you can be get unemployment insurance claims for being fired for cause, or because you decided you not longer want to work…that’s not only insurance laws are written currently.  That doesn’t mean the current law isn’t equally applicable.  nobody of any class can get unemployed insurance for those reasons.


The point is, the Capitalist (as the wealthiest) is not sanctioned for lack of good cause; why is Labor (as the least wealthy)?

Right-wingers make it seem like they believe less in equality and more in classism.


----------



## struth (Nov 9, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> The point is, the Capitalist (as the wealthiest) is not sanctioned for lack of good cause; why is Labor (as the least wealthy)?
> 
> Right-wingers make it seem like they believe less in equality and more in classism.


capitalist (the wealthy) can be fire for cause…happens all the time.  Moreover, labor, the least wealth are generally capitalist too…i don’t know any that don’t want to enjoy the fruits of their labor any own private property


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 10, 2021)

struth said:


> capitalist (the wealthy) can be fire for cause…happens all the time.  Moreover, labor, the least wealth are generally capitalist too…i don’t know any that don’t want to enjoy the fruits of their labor any own private property


Your apology for the Rich point?

_“The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread.”_

― Anatole France

By the way, is there such a thing as a motion for federal judicial review of procedural and substantive due process by a State Court?


----------



## struth (Nov 10, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> Your apology for the Rich point?
> 
> _“The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread.”_
> 
> ...


huh?   

If you want the Federal Court to hear your denial of UE insurance, you are going to have to go through the State process first.

If you want to sue the State because you believe the law violates your Due Process, in that it's unconstitutional, you need to bring action in Federal Court.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 10, 2021)

struth said:


> 1) they elected the people that created policies that made it more advantageous for businesses to do that.


How many choices did those voters have?





Corporate Democrats told their base to vote Republican if they didn't like NAFTA; someone would have to be the very definition of gullible to believe corporate capitalism's compatible with democracy.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 10, 2021)

struth said:


> huh?
> 
> If you want the Federal Court to hear your denial of UE insurance, you are going to have to go through the State process first.
> 
> If you want to sue the State because you believe the law violates your Due Process, in that it's unconstitutional, you need to bring action in Federal Court.


I was merely documenting how I felt at the time.  It could be for mere documentation purposes.

They are "getting Paid" to do their job.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 10, 2021)

struth said:


> 2) that’s no surprise, Cuomo and Newsom shut down the businesses on Main Street…not the Amazons on the world that are publicly traded


The MAGA virus shut down Main Street.
See what happens when you elect a malignant narcissist with a room temperature IQ as your POTUS?




Trump campaign rallies led to more than 30,000 coronavirus cases, Stanford researchers say


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 10, 2021)

struth said:


> Just because people are laid off, doesn’t mean people are buying and selling stocks and investing in the market…likely actually a good time to look at your investments when you are laid off.


The stock market has been on Federal Reserve life-support since 2008, and the richest ten percent of Americans own 90% of all US stocks. Telling productive workers to mind their investments during a lay-off makes me think you live in a bubble.
The wealthiest 10% of Americans own a record 89% of all U.S. stocks


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 10, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The stock market has been on Federal Reserve life-support since 2008



You should have bought some........


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 10, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> We could have solved simple poverty on an at-will basis in our at-will employment States, yesterday but for the right-wing having a problem that the Poor may benefit under our form of Capitalism.


*Imho, the right is resurrecting political disinformation first seen during Reconstruction with the same intention of restricting the right of low-income voters to cast a meaningful ballot:*

February 23, 2020

"It warns us that the (2021) Democrats are ushering in 'socialism' to America, but this warning is a throwback to Reconstruction, *when black men began to vote just as the government instituted national taxes.* 

"Racist opponents began to argue that African Americans were voting to redistribute the wealth of hardworking white taxpayers into their own pockets through government projects. 

"I*n this telling, giving men of color civil rights and a voice in their own government meant a redistribution of wealth*. In 1871, opponents of black voting began to call this 'socialism.'"


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 10, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> thats funny,,
> I am on another thread right now with a moron with TDS saying trump needs to be silenced,,


If Twitter had existed in 1933 Germany, would you have silenced Hitler?


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 10, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "Racist opponents began to argue that African Americans were voting to redistribute the wealth of hardworking white taxpayers into their own pockets through government projects.


Who came up with black codes, right-wingers.


----------



## progressive hunter (Nov 10, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> If Twitter had existed in 1933 Germany, would you have silenced Hitler?


hitler wasnt in america dumbass,, but if he was I wouldnt have silenced him,,


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 10, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> If Twitter had existed in 1933 Germany, would you have silenced Hitler?


Upgrading infrastructure would have been better than a world war.


----------



## Dogmaphobe (Nov 10, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> If Twitter had existed in 1933 Germany, would you have silenced Hitler?


Considering what I have read as to your attitudes towards the Jewish state, you would have embraced his message thoroughly.


----------



## struth (Nov 10, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How many choices did those voters have?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It depends how many people are running for office. 

What is "corporate capitalism" and how is it different then capitalism?  and what's a "corporate democrat?"

yeah NAFTA wasn't a great deal for the US, glad Trump got rid of it and a better deal.


----------



## struth (Nov 10, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> I was merely documenting how I felt at the time.  It could be for mere documentation purposes.
> 
> They are "getting Paid" to do their job.


who's getting paid?  folks working at the Court?  I would hope so.  Why wouldn't they be getting paid?


----------



## struth (Nov 10, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The MAGA virus shut down Main Street.
> See what happens when you elect a malignant narcissist with a room temperature IQ as your POTUS?
> 
> 
> ...


Nah, actually that was Dem Govs lockdowns.  Nobody made Gavin do that.


----------



## struth (Nov 10, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The stock market has been on Federal Reserve life-support since 2008, and the richest ten percent of Americans own 90% of all US stocks. Telling productive workers to mind their investments during a lay-off makes me think you live in a bubble.
> The wealthiest 10% of Americans own a record 89% of all U.S. stocks


why woudn't they mind their stocks and investments?    They aren't all that productive if they are laid off....they are actually the opposite.....so that's why they should be spending their time wisely, like managing their investments....IRA, 401Ks, pensions, are all investments worth managing


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 10, 2021)

struth said:


> who's getting paid?  folks working at the Court?  I would hope so.  Why wouldn't they be getting paid?


Not the point.  They should be doing a capital fine job since they are getting paid under our form of Capitalism.


----------



## struth (Nov 10, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> Not the point.  They should be doing a capital fine job since they are getting paid under our form of Capitalism.





i don’t disagree.  Everyone should do fine work at the job they are paid to do!

if not they’ll end up like you trying to get UE insurance and being denied 

but you bring up a good point, the opposite of your post…in a socialist system people don’t or aren’t expected to do a fine job, since they have no incentatives to


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 10, 2021)

struth said:


> i don’t disagree.  Everyone should do fine work at the job they are paid to do!
> 
> if not they’ll end up like you trying to get UE insurance and being denied
> 
> but you bring up a good point, the opposite of your post…in a socialist system people don’t or aren’t expected to do a fine job, since they have no incentatives to


I posted this on AVVO to real practicing attorneys to see if they can be more than overpaid process servers:
Why is requiring Cause in an at-will employment State for unemployment compensation not considered patently unConstitutional?​​I am waiting on procedural and substantive answers not just their subjectivity.


----------



## struth (Nov 10, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> I posted this on AVVO to real practicing attorneys to see if they can be more than overpaid process servers:
> Why is requiring Cause in an at-will employment State for unemployment compensation not considered patently unConstitutional?​​I am waiting on procedural and substantive answers not just their subjectivity.


Good luck with finding the answer that you want.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 10, 2021)

I just got a response from the Court.  They showed me my lack of high numbers and plenty of practice regarding legal procedure, not legal substance. 

Those attorneys on AVVO are proving my point regarding seeming to be nothing but overpaid process servers who probably knew that was All it was to begin with. I got it right the first time even though I am on the left.

Please let it be known by this presents that those attorneys who may believe I libeled or slandered them are welcome to come here, use their real name, and debate me about it or forever lose their Cause and Standing regarding suing me over this topic in the future.


----------



## struth (Nov 10, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> I just got a response from the Court.  They showed me my lack of high numbers and plenty of practice regarding legal procedure, not legal substance.
> 
> Those attorneys on AVVO are proving my point regarding seeming to be nothing but overpaid process servers who probably knew that was All it was to begin with. I got it right the first time even though I am on the left.
> 
> Please let it be known by this presents that those attorneys who may believe I libeled or slandered them are welcome to come here, use their real name, and debate me about it or forever lose their Cause and Standing regarding suing me over this topic in the future.


1) sorry what did the Court say?
2) So the AVVO lawyers showed you, you were wrong? and you won't accept their response...gotcha..


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 10, 2021)

struth said:


> 1) sorry what did the Court say?
> 2) So the AVVO lawyers showed you, you were wrong? and you won't accept their response...gotcha..


I inferred they implied I simply have low numbers and limited practice with legal procedure. 

Why do you assume your conclusion?  Are you on the clueless and Causeless right-wing who should not be trusted with public office? 

Vote blue not red!


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 10, 2021)

dblack said:


> I have zero "faith" in the market. I just prefer freedom. Plus I think trying to run an economy "democratically" is fucking stupid. We don't need to apply your precious majority rule to every goddamned thing


I never claimed we did.

We do have to decide if political democracy can exist without economic democracy.

Where does freedom from debt factor into your world view?

Yanis Varoufakis posits a twin peaks paradox currently threatening western democracies. 

A mountain of debt throwing its shadow over the entire world that nearly everyone recognizes and its twin which many ignore: "A mountain of idle cash belonging to rich savers and to corporations, too terrified to invest it into productive activities that can generate incomes from which you can extinguish the mountains of debts and...produce all those things humanity desperately needs, like green energy."

CommonLit | Capitalism Will Eat Democracy — Unless We Speak Up


----------



## struth (Nov 10, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> I inferred they implied I simply have low numbers and limited practice with legal procedure.
> 
> Why do you assume your conclusion?  Are you on the clueless and Causeless right-wing who should not be trusted with public office?
> 
> Vote blue not red!


1)  low numbers of what?  What did the court rule?
2) i made the logical conclusion based on your replies to post on this thread and others on the topic.  Assumed you acted the same way on other websites


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 10, 2021)

It was a procedural issue, not a substantive issue.  The public sector is more responsible for Procedural issues since they are the ones creating them.  

Unfortunately, I also have to spend some time creating an appeal to that decision; due to substantive issues presented by the lack of faithful execution of the law.


----------



## dblack (Nov 10, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> I never claimed we did.


You want the economy to be run "democratically". That covers pretty much everything.



> We do have to decide if political democracy can exist without economic democracy.


Political democracy can't exist without a free market. That's part of what is causing the US to unravel.



> Where does freedom from debt factor into your world view?


In general, I think avoiding debt is great advice.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 10, 2021)

struth said:


> i didn’t vote for the clintons


Did you vote for Don the Con?
Why would anyone be that stupid?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 10, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> "Economic democracy is another term for communisms.







Economic Democracy

*"Economic Democracy* is a philosophy and school of thought that is closely related to and overlaps with libertarian socailism, particulary mutualism. 

"Economic Democracy argues that capitalism fails to meet its stated goals, which can only be fixed through abolishing various economic hierarchies (notably in the workplace and finance) and creating democratic economic organisations. 

"This is to be done with the creation of co-operatives (mainly worker, consumer and financial) financial reform, legal reintroduction of the commons and universal basic income."


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 10, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Biden is the most corrupt POTUS in history, moron.


Anyone concerned about corruption would not support Biden or Trump, Twit.




All the Legal Trouble in Trumpworld


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 10, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Wrong again, moron.








Capitalism and white supremacy were born together.
MAGA yet?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 10, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> our free to go elsewhere if you don't like what you're paid.


Where you will find the same exploitation, Bitch.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 10, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Capitalism and white supremacy were born together.
> MAGA yet?


Just right-wingers preferring to find ways to criminalize poverty due to their "hate on the Poor".


----------



## dblack (Nov 10, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *"Economic Democracy* is a philosophy and school of thought that is closely related to and overlaps with libertarian socailism, particulary mutualism.
> 
> "Economic Democracy argues that capitalism fails to meet its stated goals, which can only be fixed through abolishing various economic hierarchies (notably in the workplace and finance) and creating democratic economic organisations.
> 
> "This is to be done with the creation of co-operatives (mainly worker, consumer and financial) financial reform, legal reintroduction of the commons and universal basic income."


If your government (or your "co-operative") controls your income, they control _you_. Completely and totally.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 10, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> You mean socialism and slavery are blood relatives


I mean white supremacy and slavery come from the same Big Lie.




Mammon and his Slave – Art Blart


----------



## struth (Nov 10, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Did you vote for Don the Con?
> Why would anyone be that stupid?


not sure what you are talking about 

only stupid people would vote for hyperinflation xiden


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 10, 2021)

struth said:


> um.....serfs and slaves aren't free and don't own anything....in Capitalism it's just the opposite...employees are free, and get paid, they own their wages, and a free to do what they want with them.


Capitalism divides society into two unequal groups, owners and employees.
Owners are a small minority entitled to decide what to produce, where to produce it, and how to divide any surplus which the vast majority of society (employees) produced. Employees are "free" to work elsewhere where another owner will exploit their labor. 

Socialism brings democracy to the workplace where productive Americans spend a majority of their waking hours. Conservatives spent centuries defending the divine right of kings, and today conservatives make the same mistake by defending the divine right of capital.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 10, 2021)

struth said:


> not sure what you are talking about
> 
> only stupid people would vote for hyperinflation xiden


Inflation had already started with Your guy.   

And, right-wingers refusing to wear masks made trying to go back to full employment more problematic.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 10, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Owners are a small minority entitled to decide what to produce, where to produce it, and how to divide any surplus which the vast majority of society (employees) produced.



You're damn right!!!


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 10, 2021)

dblack said:


> Indeed. They know how to run a totalitarian government properly! You must be jealous


*I'm not the one defending private tyrannies.
For all its authoritarian excesses, China's government is making it very clear its billionaires will never control the government the way US billionaires own this one.
Personally if prefer this approach:*

Libertarian Socialism

*"Libertarian Socialism* (sometimes called *Socialist Libertarianism* or *Free Socialism*) is a political philosophy that advocates for the ability of people to directly control the institutions that control them such as schools, workplaces, community and culture."


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 10, 2021)

dblack said:


> That's more or less what we have now.


How does the US dollar qualify as corporate script?


----------



## dblack (Nov 10, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> For all its authoritarian excesses, China's government is making it very clear its billionaires will never control the government the way US billionaires own this one.


Authoritarian excess and socialism go hand-in-hand.


georgephillip said:


> *Personally if prefer this approach:*
> 
> Libertarian Socialism
> 
> *"Libertarian Socialism* (sometimes called *Socialist Libertarianism* or *Free Socialism*) is a political philosophy that advocates for the ability of people to directly control the institutions that control them such as schools, workplaces, community and culture."


Mm-hmm. And which people will "directly control" these institutions?


----------



## dblack (Nov 10, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How does the US dollar qualify as corporate script?


It's fiat currency. The state controls how much it's worth. They use that power to devalue currency so bankers can make money and the state can steal from the population without them realizing it.


----------



## struth (Nov 10, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Capitalism divides society into two unequal groups, owners and employees.
> Owners are a small minority entitled to decide what to produce, where to produce it, and how to divide any surplus which the vast majority of society (employees) produced. Employees are "free" to work elsewhere where another owner will exploit their labor.
> 
> Socialism brings democracy to the workplace where productive Americans spend a majority of their waking hours. Conservatives spent centuries defending the divine right of kings, and today conservatives make the same mistake by defending the divine right of capital.


they aren’t unequal…employees can become owners….they are equally free to obtain whatever they want 

socialism makes people equally slaves to the state.  But not free to actually own the fruits of their own labor.


----------



## struth (Nov 10, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> Inflation had already started with Your guy.
> 
> And, right-wingers refusing to wear masks made trying to go back to full employment more problematic.


yeah i mean. normal inflation that always happens

not hyperinflation. 

try again


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 10, 2021)

dblack said:


> LOL- Bitcoin removes state control of the currency for the authoritarian's toolbox. Of course leftists hate it.


Who controls Bitcoin, rich capitalists with the fastest computers.
Why would that qualify as an improvement?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 10, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *I'm not the one defending private tyrannies.
> For all its authoritarian excesses, China's government is making it very clear its billionaires will never control the government the way US billionaires own this one.
> Personally if prefer this approach:*
> 
> ...



How many billions does Xi have?


----------



## dblack (Nov 10, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Who controls Bitcoin, rich capitalists with the fastest computers
> Why would that qualify as an improvement?


Because rich capitalists don't have the power to coerce people into doing what they want. If they do something stupid with Bitcoin, we'd just stop buying it and invest in something else. And the rich capitalists wouldn't be rich capitalists anymore.


----------



## struth (Nov 10, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> How many billions does Xi have?


i think just 1.2 billion…but let’s face it, he’s the head of the govt…he has all the wealth of China 

The CCP leadership is worth billions, owns all the wealth…owns everything…the people of china own nothing…they are all equal in their slavery though


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 10, 2021)

struth said:


> yeah i mean. normal inflation that always happens
> 
> not hyperinflation.
> 
> try again


Your drama over "hyperinflation" was already happening during Your guy's administration.  Chip shortages are one example.


----------



## struth (Nov 10, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> Your drama over "hyperinflation" was already happening during Your guy's administration.  Chip shortages are one example.


nah no it wasn’t. we had normal inflation rates 

stop lying to protect your cult leader


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 10, 2021)

struth said:


> nah no it wasn’t. we had normal inflation rates
> 
> stop lying to protect your cult leader


I agree to disagree since our ports were backed up while Your guy was still in office.


----------



## struth (Nov 10, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> I agree to disagree since our ports were backed up while Your guy was still in office.


wrong


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 11, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Economic Democracy
> 
> *"Economic Democracy* is a philosophy and school of thought that is closely related to and overlaps with libertarian socailism, particulary mutualism.
> 
> ...


The term "libertarian socialism" is an oxymoron


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 11, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Capitalism and white supremacy were born together.
> MAGA yet?


Utter horseshit.  Slavery was invented 10,000 years ago, dumbass.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 11, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Where you will find the same exploitation, Bitch.


"Exploitation" is  a meaningless word.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 11, 2021)

struth said:


> Good luck with finding the answer that you want.


I believe the FBI got a bad rap for allegedly being "unprofessional" and someone getting fired just before retirement.

Apparently, I may need to find surgeons at law since mere doctors at law seem to have nothing but fallacy instead of Any better solutions (at law).


----------



## dblack (Nov 11, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> Please let it be known by this presents that those attorneys who may believe I libeled or slandered them are welcome to come here, use their real name, and debate me about it or forever lose their Cause and Standing regarding suing me over this topic in the future.


That might be kind of hilarious.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 11, 2021)

Female attorneys are welcome to be smartasses and get in my face about if they win their argument.


----------



## struth (Nov 11, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> I believe the FBI got a bad rap for allegedly being "unprofessional" and someone getting fired just before retirement.
> 
> Apparently, I may need to find surgeons at law since mere doctors at law seem to have nothing but fallacy instead of Any better solutions (at law).


1) huh?  
2) a surgeon is a doctor....just fyi.   You are going to have to dig deep to find some with, not just a law degree, but a law licence willing to actually believe what you do.  

What's sad here, and I'm glad you used the medical metaphor....if you came into a doctor's office and told the doctor you have cancer, and the doctor listened to you, then examined you...and came back and said, no you don't have cancer...it's just a rash...here's some cream.  You come across as the type of guy, that would argue with the doctor, go to other doctors, and when all the other doctors told you the same thing, you'd continue to disagree....that's what you are doing here with this flawed argument of yours


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 11, 2021)

struth said:


> 1) huh?
> 2) a surgeon is a doctor....just fyi.   You are going to have to dig deep to find some with, not just a law degree, but a law licence willing to actually believe what you do.
> 
> What's sad here, and I'm glad you used the medical metaphor....if you came into a doctor's office and told the doctor you have cancer, and the doctor listened to you, then examined you...and came back and said, no you don't have cancer...it's just a rash...here's some cream.  You come across as the type of guy, that would argue with the doctor, go to other doctors, and when all the other doctors told you the same thing, you'd continue to disagree....that's what you are doing here with this flawed argument of yours


It is why I am not on the right-wing and resort to the fewest fallacies nor false analogies.

Right-wingers cannot be trusted with public office.  

Vote blue not red!


----------



## struth (Nov 11, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> It is why I am not on the right-wing and resort to the fewest fallacies nor false analogies.
> 
> Right-wingers cannot be trusted with public office.
> 
> Vote blue not red!


are all these lawyers you spoke to "right wing"?  how do you know?


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 11, 2021)

struth said:


> are all these lawyers you spoke to "right wing"?  how do you know?


Only the ones who responded and had nothing but fallacy instead of any questions regarding legal substance.


----------



## struth (Nov 11, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> Only the ones who responded and had nothing but fallacy instead of any questions regarding legal substance.


how do you know?


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 11, 2021)

struth said:


> how do you know?


I don't.  I am just guessing and stereotyping right-wingers on this site.


----------



## struth (Nov 11, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> I don't.  I am just guessing and stereotyping right-wingers on this site.


ah gotcha 

so they could be dems highlighting the fact you are wrong…but you are too closed minded and bigoted to recognize that 

i see 

now wonder you lost your job


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 11, 2021)

I am still waiting on a substantive response from doctors at law.

Why is requiring Cause in an at-will employment State for unemployment compensation not considered patently unConstitutional?​
Doctors at law may feel free to post their legal opinions without any fear of sanction from me.

(I am not qualified to practice law in any State.  I merely argue legal theory and politics, from an economics perspective.)


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 11, 2021)

struth said:


> ah gotcha
> 
> so they could be dems highlighting the fact you are wrong…but you are too closed minded and bigoted to recognize that
> 
> ...


Perhaps, but that is just You guessing and assuming that conclusion.  (why do you still have your job)?


----------



## struth (Nov 11, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> Perhaps, but that is just You guessing and assuming that conclusion.  (why do you still have your job)?


No, it's literally what you said..."I don't. I am just guessing and stereotyping right-wingers on this site."

I don't have to make any assumptions or guesses there.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 11, 2021)

struth said:


> No, it's literally what you said..."I don't. I am just guessing and stereotyping right-wingers on this site."
> 
> I don't have to make any assumptions or guesses there.


Are you assuming none were right-wingers or voted republican?


----------



## struth (Nov 11, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> Are you assuming none were right-wingers or voted republican?


I didn't make that assumption.   You made the assumption they ALL were.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 11, 2021)

struth said:


> I didn't make that assumption.   You made the assumption they ALL were.


Only the ones who responded "like right-wingers" on this site.


----------



## struth (Nov 11, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> Only the ones who responded "like right-wingers" on this site.


and you know that everyone that responded to you on this site, were "right wingers'?"

The problem here, is what I pointed it...you are too closed minded to recognize your argument is incorrect, flawed, and logically unsound.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 11, 2021)

struth said:


> and you know that everyone that responded to you on this site, were "right wingers'?"
> 
> The problem here, is what I pointed it...you are too closed minded to recognize your argument is incorrect, flawed, and logically unsound.


You don't know they weren't.  So, who really is the most closed minded and subjective?


----------



## struth (Nov 11, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> You don't know they weren't.  So, who really is the most closed minded and subjective?


I don't know they weren't either...I am not the one making the assumption they ALL are or ALL aren't. 

You made that assumption...because you are closed minded.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 11, 2021)

struth said:


> I don't know they weren't either...I am not the one making the assumption they ALL are or ALL aren't.
> 
> You made that assumption...because you are closed minded.


You are the one assuming none were.  Why is that?

And, are right-wingers on this site not that, "stereotypical"?


----------



## struth (Nov 11, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> You are the one assuming none were.  Why is that?
> 
> And, are right-wingers on this site not that, "stereotypical"?


I never claimed none were.  Stop lying


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 11, 2021)

struth said:


> I never claimed none were.  Stop lying


You first.


----------



## struth (Nov 11, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> You first.


ok....show me where I said what you claimed? 

If you can't...then once again, I am going to have to label your post a lie....


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 11, 2021)

struth said:


> ok....show me where I said what you claimed?
> 
> If you can't...then once again, I am going to have to label your post a lie....


I claimed I was merely stereotyping.  You are clearly engaged in diversion instead of providing valid rebuttals to the actual argument involved.  Being disingenuous is a "form of lying" and standard modus operandi for the right-wing.


----------



## struth (Nov 11, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> I claimed I was merely stereotyping.  You are clearly engaged in diversion instead of providing valid rebuttals to the actual argument involved.  Being disingenuous is a "form of lying" and standard modus operandi for the right-wing.


sterotyping is a form of bigotry.

You were basing your bigotry on the answers that you didn't like...which highlights you are closed minded...which most bigots are. 

There is nothing to argue.  You've stated your positions, and been rebutted, by numerous people on this site, and by lawyers on the AVVO site, and apparently by the Court....

So there is nothing to argue.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 11, 2021)

struth said:


> sterotyping is a form of bigotry.
> 
> You were basing your bigotry on the answers that you didn't like...which highlights you are closed minded...which most bigots are.
> 
> ...


I was basing my "bigotry" on the fallacies instead of valid rebuttals that were resorted to by those persons and indistinguishable from right-wingers on this site.  Any confusion is easily understandable, unlike the modus operandi of right-wingers who are deliberate.

The Court informed me I was deficient in legal procedure not legal substance.

By comparison and contrast, all those attorneys on the AVVO site and still no valid rebuttals or legal substance in their responses. 

I even posted to the clean debate zone.  And, those attorneys are welcome to use a nom de plum if they want, in that clean debate thread.  The person who resorts the fewest fallacies wins.


----------



## struth (Nov 11, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> I was basing my "bigotry" on the fallacies instead of valid rebuttals that were resorted to by those persons and indistinguishable from right-wingers on this site.  Any confusion is easily understandable, unlike the modus operandi of right-wingers who are deliberate.
> 
> The Court informed me I was deficient in legal procedure not legal substance.


hahhahaha it's amazing how folks from numerous sites, including lawyers keep having these same "fallacies" - the reality is your close minded bigoty keeps you form recognizing that you are the one with the fallacies that have been repeatedly highlighted.  

Oh, wow, the Court didn't even get to your argument because you couldn't even appeal your denial correctly....well...if you can't get the procedure in law even correct, why should anyone consider you can make argument?


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 11, 2021)

struth said:


> hahhahaha it's amazing how folks from numerous sites, including lawyers keep having these same "fallacies" - the reality is your close minded bigoty keeps you form recognizing that you are the one with the fallacies that have been repeatedly highlighted.
> 
> Oh, wow, the Court didn't even get to your argument because you couldn't even appeal your denial correctly....well...if you can't get the procedure in law even correct, why should anyone consider you can make argument?


Your bigotry is showing.  The Court has a problem with my lack of high numbers and plenty of practice with legal procedure not legal substance.


----------



## struth (Nov 11, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> Your bigotry is showing.  The Court has a problem with my lack of high numbers and plenty of practice with legal procedure not legal substance.


what high numbers?  

yes the court took issue with the fact you could follow proper procedure so they didn’t even bother reading your argument


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 11, 2021)

struth said:


> what high numbers?
> 
> yes the court took issue with the fact you could follow proper procedure so they didn’t even bother reading your argument


You must be on the right-wing.  All you do is tell stories yet want us to believe you are for the "gospel Truth".


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 11, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Reagan never used the term "trickle down," jackass. Your description of Reagan's policy is a flat out lie.


*How many US  billionaires existed before Reagan's tax cuts?* 

The 40-year con of trickle-down Reaganomics: Why Republican's toxic class warfare only spreads poverty | The Milwaukee Independent

"As a result of Reagan/Bush/Trump tax cuts, noted former Labor Secretary Robert Reich, 'Since the start of the pandemic, just 651 American billionaires have gained $1 trillion of wealth. *With this windfall they could send a $3,000 check to every person in America and still be as rich as they were before the pandemic.'"*


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 11, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Neither of which qualify as "externalities."


 Capitalism obtains its profits by socializing costs, Cracker.




Heart attack capitalism


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 11, 2021)

dblack said:


> View attachment 559310


Selfie?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 12, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Extracting? How?


"Why have economies polarized so sharply since the 1980s, and especially since the 2008 crisis? How did we get so indebted without real wage and living standards rising, while cities, states, and entire nations are falling into default?"

Finance Is Not the Economy - Evonomics


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 12, 2021)

dblack said:


> Profit!!!!


*Speculation*

Finance Is Not the Economy - Evonomics

"This distinction between funding 'real' versus 'financial' capital and real estate implies a 'functional differentiation of credit' (Bezemer 2014, 935), which was central to the work of Karl Marx, John Maynard Keynes, and Schumpeter. 

"Since the 1980s, the economy has been in a long cycle in which increasing bank credit has inflated prices for real estate, stocks, and bonds, leading borrowers to hope that capital gains will continue. 

"Speculation gains momentum — on credit, *so that debts rise almost as rapidly as asset valuations."*


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 12, 2021)

struth said:


> I think it's clear that the US was built on slavery, a practice that we took from other countries at the time, it's our orginial sin.....but it was capitalism that helped end slavery. Slavery runs counter to the princpals of capitlalism


I would add white supremacy underwrote both capitalism and slavery in the US and much of the rest of the world, and that particular scourge is still very much with us.

One of the First Principles of Capitalism is to pay labor as little as possible, so it's hard to imagine any wage or salary that's less than zero.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 12, 2021)

struth said:


> There is no democracy in socialism...people own nothing and make no choices....the Govt does


*Your definition of socialism is completely wrong, as I've pointed out several times.*

Democratic socialism - Wikipedia.

*"Democratic socialism* is a political philosophy that supports political democracy within a socially owned economy,[1] with a particular emphasis on economic democracy, workplace democracy, and workers' self-management[2] within a market socialist economy, or an alternative form of decentralised planned socialist economy."

*Government control is one among many options for a "socially owned economy."*


----------



## struth (Nov 12, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> I would add white supremacy underwrote both capitalism and slavery in the US and much of the rest of the world, and that particular scourge is still very much with us.
> 
> One of the First Principles of Capitalism is to pay labor as little as possible, so it's hard to imagine any wage or salary that's less than zero.


slavery undermines Capitalism.   Slavery is a form of socialism.   Under socialism, like slavery, the the slaves own nothing.  They can't own anything.  It all belongs to the State, or Master.   Socialism, is merely slavery on a State level. 

As Adam Smith, wrote, slavery is completely innefficient...therefore not compatiable with Captialism.  Under capitalism, the idea is to get the most gains, you don't get that with a work force that has no skin in the game....that's why slavery fell, and why all socialist nations end up failing.


----------



## struth (Nov 12, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Your definition of socialism is completely wrong, as I've pointed out several times.*
> 
> Democratic socialism - Wikipedia.
> 
> ...


hahah yeah we saw that "democractic socialism" play out in Hugo's Venezula...you clowns try to re-brand yourself all the time to sell your slavery


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 12, 2021)

struth said:


> slavery undermines Capitalism.   Slavery is a form of socialism.   Under socialism, like slavery, the the slaves own nothing.  They can't own anything.  It all belongs to the State, or Master.   Socialism, is merely slavery on a State level.
> 
> As Adam Smith, wrote, slavery is completely innefficient...therefore not compatiable with Captialism.  Under capitalism, the idea is to get the most gains, you don't get that with a work force that has no skin in the game....that's why slavery fell, and why all socialist nations end up failing.


Yet, right-wingers have no problem with wage-slavery (due to unequal protection of the laws) and the Rich have no economic basis to care.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 12, 2021)

struth said:


> hahah yeah we saw that "democractic socialism" play out in Hugo's Venezula...you clowns try to re-brand yourself all the time to sell your slavery


Sounds more like something sfalse would say.


----------



## 22lcidw (Nov 12, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> I would add white supremacy underwrote both capitalism and slavery in the US and much of the rest of the world, and that particular scourge is still very much with us.
> 
> One of the First Principles of Capitalism is to pay labor as little as possible, so it's hard to imagine any wage or salary that's less than zero.


The way of the world is advancement. To learn. The United States was not founded on Capitalism. Nor Socialism or any other system. It was founded on Freedoms. Liberties! And with flaws. All of the crap you spew. Where are the other governments of the world who did this? Any area of the Western Hemisphere had the chance to be rich. And it was the English areas that conquered and became the standard bearer for the Hemisphere and eventually the world. The thinking of Spain and France and others who came here became secondary because they did not have the Magna Carta, the English Rule of Law which were primitive in rights for peasants. But they were rights compared to most others on this planet. The Constitution of the United States was based loosely on the British rights for peasants. But went much further and is intricate. Corrupted demons wanting power found ways around it and we are now in decline. The Constitution also deals with it snippets of time. Eras begin and end within the nation's length of existence. The Industrial Era is an example.


----------



## struth (Nov 12, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> Yet, right-wingers have no problem with wage-slavery (due to unequal protection of the laws) and the Rich have no economic basis to care.


can you define "wage-slavery" - and how is it impacted to "unequal protection of the law"


----------



## struth (Nov 12, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> Sounds more like something sfalse would say.


oh yeah....cause Venezula turned into a utopia after Hugo and "democractic-socialism" took hold....


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 12, 2021)

struth said:


> can you define "wage-slavery" - and how is it impacted to "unequal protection of the law"


Requiring Good Cause to quit to collect unemployment compensation in an at-will employment State is a form of "wage-slavery" where capital is a requirement in a market economy.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 12, 2021)

struth said:


> oh yeah....cause Venezula turned into a utopia after Hugo and "democractic-socialism" took hold....


Special pleading is usually considered a fallacy.  You need to explain which specific policies did that.  Otherwise, we could claim the South was worse and it required a civil war to correct.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 12, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Extracting? How?
> 
> Still no answer? Maybe a Marxist (DURR) economist can help you?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 12, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "Why have economies polarized so sharply since the 1980s, and especially since the 2008 crisis? How did we get so indebted without real wage and living standards rising, while cities, states, and entire nations are falling into default?"
> 
> Finance Is Not the Economy - Evonomics



Answer the question.....extracting how?


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 12, 2021)

Right-wingers keep proving they don't care about the Law, unless they can "screw over the Poor".


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 12, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Speculation*
> 
> Finance Is Not the Economy - Evonomics
> 
> ...



You definitely shouldn't borrow or buy any real estate, stocks, and bonds.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 12, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "Why have economies polarized so sharply since the 1980s, and especially since the 2008 crisis? How did we get so indebted without real wage and living standards rising, while cities, states, and entire nations are falling into default?"
> 
> Finance Is Not the Economy - Evonomics


They aren't polarizing, dumbass.  The USA becomes more socialist with every Democrat election.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 12, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> They aren't polarizing, dumbass.  The USA becomes more socialist with every Democrat election.


That is a good thing.  But for the Rich, right-wingers are simply clueless and Causeless regarding economics.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 12, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> Right-wingers keep proving they don't care about the Law, unless they can "screw over the Poor".


What do you mean "screw the poor?"  You mean we arrest them for robbing people?


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 12, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> That is a good thing.  But for the Rich, right-wingers are simply clueless and Causeless regarding economics.


How does the government becoming more socialist constitute polarizing the country?


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 12, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> What do you mean "screw the poor?"  You mean we arrest them for robbing people?


Due to unequal protection of the laws?


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 12, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> How does the government becoming more socialist constitute polorazing the country?


That is your opinion.  Why do you believe that?


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 12, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> Due to unequal protection of the laws?


For instance?


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 12, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> That is your opinion.  Why do you believe that?


Every year he have more laws, more spending and higher taxes.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 12, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> For instance?


Unemployment compensation.  We need some dissertations on how equal protection of the laws for unemployment compensation help reduce corruption and improve the efficiency of our economy and the multiplier.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 12, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Every year he have more laws, more spending and higher taxes.


We need better laws at lower cost.  Junk bonds not junk laws!


----------



## dblack (Nov 12, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "Why have economies polarized so sharply since the 1980s, and especially since the 2008 crisis? How did we get so indebted without real wage and living standards rising, while cities, states, and entire nations are falling into default?"
> 
> Finance Is Not the Economy - Evonomics


It's been explained to you, in excruciating detail, by scores of people by now, how investment and profit perform vital functions in a healthy economy. Yet you always just ignore those explanations. Why? I mean, if you disagree with them - by all means show how they are wrong. But just pretending no one said anything and blithely going back to your propaganda stream isn't compelling. Just makes it seem like you're here doing a job - ie posting your weekly allotment of socialist memes.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 12, 2021)

struth said:


> Capitalism, private ownership, solves for the flaw of the commons because individuals care about keep their property clean


*Democratic decision making and public ownership of the means of production can only happen under socialism. Capitalism concentrates money and political power in fewer and fewer hands with each passing generation. The result is on full display today for all who are not blinded by their authoritarian ideology*

Democratic socialism - Wikipedia.

"The history of democratic socialism can be traced back to 19th-century socialist thinkers across Europe and the Chartist movement in Britain, which somewhat differed in their goals but shared a common demand of *democratic decision making and public ownership of the means of production,* and viewed these as fundamental characteristics of the society they advocated for. In the late 19th to the early 20th century,"


----------



## dblack (Nov 12, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Democratic decision making and public ownership of the means of production can only happen under socialism. Capitalism concentrates money and political power in fewer and fewer hands with each passing generation. The result is on full display today for all who are not blinded by their authoritarian ideology


Nothing is more authoritarian than the state controlling trade. The idea that it's all hunky dory if it's driven by majority rule is naive and dangerous.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 12, 2021)

dblack said:


> It's been explained to you, in excruciating detail, by scores of people by now, how investment and profit perform vital functions in a healthy economy. Yet you always just ignore those explanations


Define a "healthy economy".

Link to ONE of the alleged scores of explanations of how investment and profit perform vital functions in a healthy economy.


----------



## dblack (Nov 12, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Define a "healthy economy".


Nah, l don't want to equivocate on terms. 

Can you answer the question, rather than seeking diversion? Why do you ignore the function of investment and profit in a free market? Are you really so simple minded that you see it all as "money-for-nothing"?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 12, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Why do I need an elected leader for a business that I own?


Depends on the percentage of daily labor you personally perform.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 12, 2021)

struth said:


> slavery undermines Capitalism.   Slavery is a form of socialism.   Under socialism, like slavery, the the slaves own nothing.  They can't own anything.  It all belongs to the State, or Master.   Socialism, is merely slavery on a State level.
> 
> As Adam Smith, wrote, slavery is completely innefficient...therefore not compatiable with Captialism.  Under capitalism, the idea is to get the most gains, you don't get that with a work force that has no skin in the game....that's why slavery fell, and why all socialist nations end up failing.



Wrong.
Socialism does not at all reduce or effect personal possessions in any way.
You can build and own all the factories you want under socialism.
The only thing socialism does is require collective regulation of industry so that it is not abusive, and it allows for collective investment in industry if the people want.

And obviously Adam Smith is wrong, because every unregulated capitalist society of the past has always reverted to slavery,
Even though it is inefficient, capitalists like slavery because they enjoy feeling superior to the slaves.  Their goal is not just to make the maximum profits, but to deliberately reduce the profits of everyone else, compared to them.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 12, 2021)

struth said:


> the alternative is socialism where there is no wealth, everyone is poor and slaves to the state who owns it all


*That's a definition of socialism that no one advocates.
You are blinded by your capitalist ideology to all the many types of socialism currently being considered.*

What is Democratic Socialism? - Democratic Socialists of America (DSA)

"Capitalism is a system designed by the owning class to exploit the rest of us for their own profit. 

"We must replace it with democratic socialism, a system where ordinary people have a real voice in our workplaces, neighborhoods, and society."


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 12, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Every year he have more laws, more spending and higher taxes.



Having more laws would not necessarily be a bad thing because rights are infinite, so then possible abuses of rights have to also be infinite.
We also at one time were mostly a frontier where survival was fairly easy independently.  But now most property is private, resource are more scarce, etc., so survival is much more complex than it used to be.

As far as more spending, I think that is almost all the fault of the military.
The use spends much more on the military than it admits.
For example, I think the interest on the national debt is military, most social services spending in on military related projects like GIBill, VA centers, etc.

Since there are so many loopholes in our tax codes, I think taxes for the wealthy actually are lower, not higher.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 12, 2021)

dblack said:


> Nothing is more authoritarian than the state controlling trade. The idea that it's all hunky dory if it's driven by majority rule is naive and dangerous.



Better to have state control, (which essentially is your neighbors), than to be controlled by remote, wealthy, elite, or even worse, multi national conglomerate.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 12, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> That really worked out for the Soviet Union, eh?


How did it work out for Hitler?


----------



## dblack (Nov 12, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Better to have state control, (which essentially is your neighbors), than to be controlled by remote, wealthy, elite, or even worse, multi national conglomerate.


No. It's not. Because there is a fundamental, overriding difference between the power held by private wealth and the power held by government. Until you actually acknowledge this and account for it, I can't take your position seriously at all.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 12, 2021)

dblack said:


> Nah, l don't want to equivocate on terms.
> 
> Can you answer the question, rather than seeking diversion? Why do you ignore the function of investment and profit in a free market? Are you really so simple minded that you see it all as "money-for-nothing"?



Profit motive is awful.
It has no stabilizing factors, such as promoting essential food production over foofy luxuries, even if the food production is less profitable.

An actual example is our railroads.
Railroads are almost 100 times more efficient than individual transportation like cars or trucks.
But the capital investments to keep up the infrastructure is high.
So then many companies that owned railroads gutted the railroads and instead invested the money in alternative high yield returns.
Very short sighted and risky speculation, over the essential well-being of the entire society.

The essential problem is that with capitalism and the stock market, short term visually obvious returns get massive priority to the more important and stable, long term investments that are more essential to society.

If you want another example, consider oil and natural gas.
The US actually hardly has any of either, compared to the rest of the world.
And right now, the rest of the world is producing so much oil and gas, that our oil and gas can't be sold for much.
But we are selling it anyway, because we are greedy.
And it will soon run out.
Something like 10 to 30 years.
So then later after our oil and gas is all gone, the prices will eventually go much higher, like 10 times what they are now.
But since we will have wasted all our oil when it was cheap, we will not have any oil or gas, so will have to buy and import much more of this expensive oil and gas than we would have if we had instead conserved.


----------



## dblack (Nov 12, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Profit motive is awful.
> It has no stabilizing factors, such as promoting essential food production over foofy luxuries, even if the food production is less profitable.
> 
> An actual example is our railroads.
> ...


None of this address the post you are responding to. Was it meant for someone else?


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 12, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs​
> That really worked out for the Soviet Union, eh?
> 
> *"In the Marxist view, such an arrangement will be made possible by the abundance of goods and services that a developed communist system will be capable to produce*
> ...



Obviously Russia never implemented Marxism.
Stalin instead implemented a form of state capitalism, where essentially you only have 1 single capitalism company.
That is reverting back to a form of capitalist feudalism.
In Russia, the wealthy elite, like Stalin, did not produce or need all the wealth they took.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 12, 2021)

dblack said:


> None of this address the post you are responding to. Was it meant for someone else?



Maybe I misunderstood, but what you wrote was:
{...
Can you answer the question, rather than seeking diversion? Why do you ignore the function of investment and profit in a free market? Are you really so simple minded that you see it all as "money-for-nothing"?
...}

And my point is that investment and profit do not have a function in a fair society or market.
Individuals trying to maximize their return is a very disorganized and counter productive means of running anything.
And the easiest way to maximize profits is to create deliberate scarcity instead of production.
And one should never use the phrase, "free market", because that implies absolutely no regulation at all, which means there is nothing to prevent crime, such as feudalism or slavery, based on "might makes right", or the "power of the sword".


----------



## struth (Nov 12, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> Requiring Good Cause to quit to collect unemployment compensation in an at-will employment State is a form of "wage-slavery" where capital is a requirement in a market economy.


How is that "wage-slavery" --- you think you have a right to have someone hire you and pay you?   Why?   You are comparing slavery to not getting insurance comphension for willingly leaving a job?  wow....just wow....the entitlement of you leftist


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 12, 2021)

dblack said:


> No. It's not. Because there is a fundamental, overriding difference between the power held by private wealth and the power held by government. Until you actually acknowledge this and account for it, I can't take your position seriously at all.



The ONLY thing wrong with power held by government is that private corporations have used their massive wealth to manipulate media to the point they now have an inordinate influence over government.
So you want to make these evil and corrupt private corporations even more in control over our lives?

For example, who lied to us about WMD in Iraq?
We can't ever really know because they have too much power to allow any investigation, but clearly is was US oil companies, who illegal gained control over Iraqi oil, and increased world oil prices for their oil in places like TX.

The solution to evil and corrupt government is not to increase the ability of the wealthy elite to control government even more.
Instead we need more regulation, in order to reduce the influence of the corrupt wealthy elite.
For example, we have to over-turn Citizen's United.
That allowed foreign campaign contribution laundering.


----------



## struth (Nov 12, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> Special pleading is usually considered a fallacy.  You need to explain which specific policies did that.  Otherwise, we could claim the South was worse and it required a civil war to correct.


Specifically, it's the policy of SOCIALISM.


----------



## struth (Nov 12, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Democratic decision making and public ownership of the means of production can only happen under socialism. Capitalism concentrates money and political power in fewer and fewer hands with each passing generation. The result is on full display today for all who are not blinded by their authoritarian ideology*
> 
> Democratic socialism - Wikipedia.
> 
> "The history of democratic socialism can be traced back to 19th-century socialist thinkers across Europe and the Chartist movement in Britain, which somewhat differed in their goals but shared a common demand of *democratic decision making and public ownership of the means of production,* and viewed these as fundamental characteristics of the society they advocated for. In the late 19th to the early 20th century,"


Actually in a capitalist society, we have public ownership....anyone can by a share of any publicly traded company.   Try again. 

Socialism is the State ownership...under Socialism you have even MORE CONCENRATED money and political power, since only the State owns things.


----------



## struth (Nov 12, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *That's a definition of socialism that no one advocates.
> You are blinded by your capitalist ideology to all the many types of socialism currently being considered.*
> 
> What is Democratic Socialism? - Democratic Socialists of America (DSA)
> ...


There is only one form of socialism...you can paint it up, and give it different adjectives in front of it to try and re-package it and sell it...but it is what it is


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 12, 2021)

struth said:


> How is that "wage-slavery" --- you think you have a right to have someone hire you and pay you?   Why?   You are comparing slavery to not getting insurance comphension for willingly leaving a job?  wow....just wow....the entitlement of you leftist



Wrong.
Unemployment insurance has nothing to do with willingly leaving a job.
It is only for when wrongly or arbitrarily terminated.
And without it, then you would force slavery, because there would be no recourse to death if you lost your job, so you would then be force to work for far less than you are worth.


----------



## struth (Nov 12, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Wrong.
> Socialism does not at all reduce or effect personal possessions in any way.
> You can build and own all the factories you want under socialism.
> The only thing socialism does is require collective regulation of industry so that it is not abusive, and it allows for collective investment in industry if the people want.
> ...


of course it does...if an individual can't own the means of production, ie...their farm...their business...you are reducing their possessions.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 12, 2021)

struth said:


> Actually in a capitalist society, we have public ownership....anyone can by a share of any publicly traded company.   Try again.
> 
> Socialism is the State ownership...under Socialism you have even MORE CONCENRATED money and political power, since only the State owns things.



Wrong.
Capitalism tries to prevent any public ownership.
In the US, the only things publicly owned are things that private companies refuse to do, like Amtrak or water utilities.

Concentration of money and political power is not more under socialism, but much less.
Since socialism is universal ownership, you cannot possibly have any less concentration than with socialism.

And no, socialism is NOT where the state owns everything or even anything.
Socialism is where the state has laws to regulate everything, in order to prevent abuses, like monopolies, slavery, child labor, etc.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 12, 2021)

struth said:


> There is only one form of socialism...you can paint it up, and give it different adjectives in front of it to try and re-package it and sell it...but it is what it is



Except that socialism is NOT at all what YOU think it is is.
You have it totally and completely wrong.
Socialism is not even centralized, but has to be the single most decentralized possible


----------



## task0778 (Nov 12, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Wrong.
> Unemployment insurance has nothing to do with willingly leaving a job.
> It is only for when wrongly or arbitrarily terminated.
> And without it, then you would force slavery, because there would be no recourse to death if you lost your job, so you would then be force to work for far less than you are worth.



Total horseshit.  Even if someone is wrongfully or arbitrarily terminated, slavery is not forced because you can get another job, with or without UE.  Plus you may have cause to sue the bastard that fired you without justification.  You are never forced to work for less than you are worth unless you yourself decide to accept it.  Nobody puts a gun to your head and says work for peanuts or die.


----------



## dblack (Nov 12, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Maybe I misunderstood, but what you wrote was:
> {...
> Can you answer the question, rather than seeking diversion? Why do you ignore the function of investment and profit in a free market? Are you really so simple minded that you see it all as "money-for-nothing"?
> ...}
> ...


Fair is a loaded term. Freedom is less subjective.


Rigby5 said:


> Individuals trying to maximize their return is a very disorganized and counter productive means of running anything.


The disorganization is a feature not a bug. The decentralized nature prevents authoritarian control


Rigby5 said:


> And one should never use the phrase, "free market", because that implies absolutely no regulation at all, which means there is nothing to prevent crime, such as feudalism or slavery, based on "might makes right", or the "power of the sword".


One should never use the term "fair society or market" because it's a complete subjective assessment. Your idea of "fair" almost certainly doesn't jibe with mine, for example. Freedom isn't anarchy, and "free market" doesn't imply absolutely no regulation at all; that's just a strawman. Freedom does not equal anarchy. Might makes right is the core ethos of majority rule. Freedom requires constitutional limits on the democratic will of the majority.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 12, 2021)

struth said:


> of course it does...if an individual can't own the means of production, ie...their farm...their business...you are reducing their possessions.



WRONG!

In no way does or ever did socialism imply any lack of private personal possession of anything.
Anyone can invest in any means of production any time they want under socialism.
It is just that they are regulated against illegal and abusive actions.
And even if they do nothing illegal or abusive, if they do not satisfy the needs of the community, then the community may produce their own means of production for the same goods or services, and undercut the prices of anyone who is abusive.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 12, 2021)

task0778 said:


> Total horseshit.  Even if someone is wrongfully or arbitrarily terminated, slavery is not forced because you can get another job, with or without UE.  Plus you may have cause to sue the bastard that fired you without justification.  You are never forced to work for less than you are worth unless you yourself decide to accept it.  Nobody puts a gun to your head and says work for peanuts or die.



The ability to get another job, to be able to sue, etc., are all socialist regulations that prevent slavery.
Without socialist regulations, they can and do put a gun to your head.


----------



## dblack (Nov 12, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> The ONLY thing wrong with power held by government is that ...


You're ignoring, will _always_ ignore it would seem, the fundamental difference between political power and economic power: The power to employ force against those who won't do what you want them to do. Governments have this power, private wealth does not. If you get fed up with Facebook, you can tell them get fucked and ignore them. Try that with government and you'll end up in jail or dead.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 12, 2021)

dblack said:


> Fair is a loaded term. Freedom is less subjective.
> 
> The disorganization is a feature not a bug. The decentralized nature prevents authoritarian control
> 
> One should never use the term "fair society or market" because it's a complete subjective assessment. Your idea of "fair" almost certainly doesn't jibe with mine, for example. Freedom isn't anarchy, and "free market" doesn't imply absolutely no regulation at all; that's just a strawman. Freedom does not equal anarchy. Might makes right is the core ethos of majority rule. Freedom requires constitutional limits on the democratic will of the majority.



Wrong.

First of all, a free market is by far the single most authoritarian, because then the largest application of force rules all, and that would be multi national conglomerates.

Second is that if you look at history, every "free market" has always resulted in tyranny.
When profits are the only unregulated motive, then the cheapest investment with the greatest return is just to hire armed mercenaries to enforce your wll.
All the emperors, kings, barons, popes, pharaohs, sultans, etc. of history were all the result of unbridled capitalism, and always will be.
If you look at recent history, Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc obviously were all pure capitalists.
Capitalism is always evil greed, and socialism is always what any sane community does to prevent that from becoming abusive.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 12, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Depends on the percentage of daily labor you personally perform.



My workers don't get to vote on my ownership.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 12, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How did it work out for Hitler?



When we compare East Germany to West Germany, even a moron like you can see what works best.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 12, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Profit motive is awful.
> It has no stabilizing factors,



Really?
Consumer demand isn't a stabilizing factor?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 12, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Profit motive is awful.
> It has no stabilizing factors, such as promoting essential food production over foofy luxuries, even if the food production is less profitable.
> 
> An actual example is our railroads.
> ...



*An actual example is our railroads.
Railroads are almost 100 times more efficient than individual transportation like cars or trucks.*

100 times? Prove it.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 12, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> So then later after our oil and gas is all gone, the prices will eventually go much higher, like 10 times what they are now.



We need to stop using our cheap oil and gas now, because more expensive in the future is bad?
We should use more expensive oil and gas now!!!


----------



## dblack (Nov 12, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Wrong.
> 
> First of all, a free market is by far the single most authoritarian, because then the largest application of force rules all, and that would be multi national conglomerates.
> 
> ...


You're ignoring, will _always_ ignore it would seem, the fundamental difference between political power and economic power: The power to employ force against those who won't do what you want them to do. Governments have this power, private wealth does not. If you get fed up with Facebook, you can tell them get fucked and ignore them. Try that with government and you'll end up in jail or dead.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 12, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Obviously Russia never implemented Marxism.
> Stalin instead implemented a form of state capitalism, where essentially you only have 1 single capitalism company.



Because if they had implemented Marxism, it would have worked?


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 12, 2021)

dblack said:


> You're ignoring, will _always_ ignore it would seem, the fundamental difference between political power and economic power: The power to employ force against those who won't do what you want them to do. Governments have this power, private wealth does not. If you get fed up with Facebook, you can tell them get fucked and ignore them. Try that with government and you'll end up in jail or dead.



What you have wrong is that political power is held by the majority, and that is automatically then the most trusted and least corruptible.
While economic power not only is the MOST corrupt, but clearly is what has corrupted our democratic political power.
For example, the lies about WMD in Iraq had over 90% of the population fooled by their false media manipulations.
In fact, over 60% of the population believed the insanity that Saddam was behind the 9/11 attack.

In a democracy, government power is not the problem because it is regulated by the people.
It is ONLY economic power that is any sort of threat at all, because it is only economic power that can sway a democracy away from the truth.

Ignoring Facebook does not reduce the potential for harm Facebook has.
If government does something harmful, like the War on Drugs for example, you can easily ignore them if you want, or lobby for change.
We did end Prohibition for example.
The whole is much less corrupt than the wealthy elite.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 12, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Because if they had implemented Marxism, it would have worked?



Probably not.
Marxism was very theoretical and idealistic.
It was the first reaction to the evils of the Industrial Revolution, around 1830 or so.
It is when steam powered looms could produce cloth at half the price of cottage industries.
Marx was just putting up a trial balloon.
It turns out unions, anti trust legislation, OSHA, etc., were better or at least easier.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 12, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> We need to stop using our cheap oil and gas now, because more expensive in the future is bad?
> We should use more expensive oil and gas now!!!



No, the import gas and oil is foolishly cheap now so we should use that now.
Then we should save our limited gas and oil for when it is much more valuable.


----------



## dblack (Nov 12, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> What you have wrong is that political power is held by the majority, and that is automatically then the most trusted and least corruptible.


And that's what you have wrong. Majority rule is NOT automatically the most trusted and least corruptible. Just look at a populist like Trump.



Rigby5 said:


> In a democracy, government power is not the problem because it is regulated by the people.


This is an utterly naive assumption.


Rigby5 said:


> Ignoring Facebook does not reduce the potential for harm Facebook has.


Right. Ignoring them isn't enough. You want to control them.


Rigby5 said:


> If government does something harmful, like the War on Drugs for example, you can easily ignore them if you want, or lobby for change.


Again, insanely naive. If a private company pisses you off, as mentioned, you can ignore them. You can't ignore armed DEA agents.


Rigby5 said:


> We did end Prohibition for example.


After how many lives were lost on senseless "we-know-betterism", how much wasted money? Seriously, if that's your example of how government should "work", I'll pass.


Rigby5 said:


> The whole is much less corrupt than the wealthy elite.


Uh huh. And how many have the wealthy elite killed? I'm sure you can find some examples (though they almost always involve collusion with government). Regardless, they pale in comparison the havoc wreaked by totalitarian regimes. You simply can't run a good genocide with coercive state power.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 12, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *An actual example is our railroads.
> Railroads are almost 100 times more efficient than individual transportation like cars or trucks.*
> 
> 100 times? Prove it.



The problem of trying to prove it is that one can not use Amtrak because US trains are not popular enough to be nearly as efficient as say trains in Japan or China.
But it should not be hard to understand. 
Trains always have a much flatter and straighter path than highways, using cuts or tunnels instead of inclines over hills, mountains, etc.
They also are the single most efficient diesel/electrics, that can capture downhill regeneration.
They also do not have to add the inefficiencies of traffic slowing down and speeding up.
About the only way you could get more efficient would be to run the trains in evacuated tubes under ground.


----------



## dblack (Nov 12, 2021)

What really gnaws at democratic socialists is that, in a free society, the people have more power than the government. Individuals have more power to influence society than the state. That's by design. The purpose of government isn't to shape society or control people. It's to protect our freedom to create the kind of society we want, via voluntary collaboration rather than brute force.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 12, 2021)

dblack said:


> And that's what you have wrong. Majority rule is NOT automatically the most trusted and least corruptible. Just look at a populist like Trump.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Interesting, in that what you are implying is that the wealthy elite, by virtue of being more economically successful, may be better at decision making than the average person?
Could be.
But I still do not trust the wealthy elite, and historically they have always been the problem.

As far as Trump, I actually do understand his Populism and did not find it all that distasteful, even though I am very far left.
At least he did not start any wars and he correctly identified China as an economic threat.
I also think his take on covid was correct.

And you certainly have a point in armed DEA agents.
However, I consider the War on Drugs to be from the wealthy elite and not average people.
But I have no proof of that.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 12, 2021)

dblack said:


> What really gnaws at democratic socialists is that, in a free society, the people have more power than the government. Individuals have more power to influence society than the state. That's by design. The purpose of government isn't to shape society or control people. It's to protect our freedom to create the kind of society we want, via voluntary collaboration rather than brute force.



I disagree, because I think it is private corporations who are the ones pushing and controlling "brute force".
For example, after WWII in Europe, they made lots of 1 liter engine cars that got over 40 mpg.
But the problem is there is much less profit in making many inexpensive cars, as making a few expensive ones.
That is why you will see so many SUVs and 4 door pickups in this country, even though they are much less efficient and much more expensive.
What we really need and want, is not being made.
Most people do not want power windows, automatic door locking after 5 mph, backup cameras, EVs, autonomous vehicles, etc., but they are forced upon us.


----------



## dblack (Nov 12, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Interesting, in that what you are implying is that the wealthy elite, by virtue of being more economically successful, may be better at decision making than the average person?
> Could be.
> But I still do not trust the wealthy elite, and historically they have always been the problem.


The problem for whom? Compared to whom? Wanna compare Bill Gates to Stalin, point for point. Go for it.


Rigby5 said:


> As far as Trump, I actually do understand his Populism and did not find it all that distasteful, even though I am very far left.


I'm not surprised.


Rigby5 said:


> And you certainly have a point in armed DEA agents.
> However, I consider the War on Drugs to be from the wealthy elite and not average people.


Doesn't matter who it's "from" - it's delivered via government.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 12, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> No, the import gas and oil is foolishly cheap now so we should use that now.
> Then we should save our limited gas and oil for when it is much more valuable.



If we stop our production, oil and gas will immediately become more expensive.
By a lot.


----------



## dblack (Nov 12, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> I disagree, because I think it is private corporations who are the ones pushing and controlling "brute force".


Yes. You've proven impervious to the fact that political power and economic power are radically different.  Private corporations aren't empowered by society to apply brute force. Government is. Continue to ignore that - I'll continue to point out how naive your ignorance is.


Rigby5 said:


> For example, after WWII in Europe, they made lots of 1 liter engine cars that got over 40 mpg.
> But the problem is there is much less profit in making many inexpensive cars, as making a few expensive ones.
> That is why you will see so many SUVs and 4 door pickups in this country, even though they are much less efficient and much more expensive.
> What we really need and want, is not being made.
> Most people do not want power windows, automatic door locking after 5 mph, backup cameras, EVs, autonomous vehicles, etc., but they are forced upon us.



You realize that the automobile industry is heavily regulated and the manipulation you're talking about is implemented via laws, right? The lobbyists may write these laws (obviously for benefit their employers) but Congress passes them. The democratically elected representatives of the people are feeding their friends in industry and convincing the dupes that "it's for their own good". Your government in action.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 12, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> Unemployment compensation.  We need some dissertations on how equal protection of the laws for unemployment compensation help reduce corruption and improve the efficiency of our economy and the multiplier.


How do unemployment laws apply differently to the wealthy than the poor?


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 12, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> Due to unequal protection of the laws?


How is it unequal?


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 12, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Obviously Russia never implemented Marxism.
> Stalin instead implemented a form of state capitalism, where essentially you only have 1 single capitalism company.
> That is reverting back to a form of capitalist feudalism.
> In Russia, the wealthy elite, like Stalin, did not produce or need all the wealth they took.


Yes, and no one ever drew a triangle with four sides.  That's all you're saying.  Marxism can't be implemented.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 12, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Maybe I misunderstood, but what you wrote was:
> {...
> Can you answer the question, rather than seeking diversion? Why do you ignore the function of investment and profit in a free market? Are you really so simple minded that you see it all as "money-for-nothing"?
> ...}
> ...


What the point of debating economic systems with someone who is totally ignorant of economics?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 12, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> The problem of trying to prove it is that one can not use Amtrak because US trains are not popular enough to be nearly as efficient as say trains in Japan or China.
> But it should not be hard to understand.
> Trains always have a much flatter and straighter path than highways, using cuts or tunnels instead of inclines over hills, mountains, etc.
> They also are the single most efficient diesel/electrics, that can capture downhill regeneration.
> ...



So you have no proof? 

Use a foreign example.

Or admit you pulled it out of your ass.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 12, 2021)

dblack said:


> The problem for whom? Compared to whom? Wanna compare Bill Gates to Stalin, point for point. Go for it.
> 
> I'm not surprised.
> 
> Doesn't matter who it's "from" - it's delivered via government.



Stalin was far more of a capitalist than Gates.
It is socialism that protects and allows competition.

Democratic government can be manipulated and used, but is still better in the long run, and can be fixed by virtue of the competition between the corrupt wealthy elite, if nothing else.
Without socialism, you just end up with a single dictator.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 12, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> How do unemployment laws apply differently to the wealthy than the poor?


Good Cause is only required for Labor as the least wealthy under our form of Capitalism.  

Classism.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 12, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> How is it unequal?


CA Labor Code: _An employment, having no specified term, may be terminated at the will of either party on notice to the other._

UICode: _An individual is disqualified for unemployment compensation benefits if the director finds that he or she left his or her most recent work voluntarily without good cause or that he or she has been discharged for misconduct connected with his or her most recent work._


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 12, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> If we stop our production, oil and gas will immediately become more expensive.
> By a lot.



Nope.
Foreign supplies are so much larger than ours that we have very little influence on international oil or gas prices.
If we stopped domestic production entirely, the prices would not change significantly.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 12, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> WRONG!
> 
> In no way does or ever did socialism imply any lack of private personal possession of anything.
> Anyone can invest in any means of production any time they want under socialism.
> ...


How can you "invest" in any means of production when no one can own the means of production?


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 12, 2021)

dblack said:


> Yes. You've proven impervious to the fact that political power and economic power are radically different.  Private corporations aren't empowered by society to apply brute force. Government is. Continue to ignore that - I'll continue to point out how naive your ignorance is.
> 
> 
> You realize that the automobile industry is heavily regulated and the manipulation you're talking about is implemented via laws, right? The lobbyists may write these laws (obviously for benefit their employers) but Congress passes them. The democratically elected representatives of the people are feeding their friends in industry and convincing the dupes that "it's for their own good". Your government in action.



Good point in that many of the bad things about cars have been through legislation the car makers themselves are responsible for.
Like preventing the cheaper, smaller, and less polluting foreign cars from being sold in the US.

But I still think it would be even worse without government regulations?


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 12, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> CA Labor Code: _An employment, having no specified term, may be terminated at the will of either party on notice to the other._
> 
> UICode: _An individual is disqualified for unemployment compensation benefits if the director finds that he or she left his or her most recent work voluntarily without good cause or that he or she has been discharged for misconduct connected with his or her most recent work._


How does that affect the rich any differently than it affects the poor?


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 12, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> So you have no proof?
> 
> Use a foreign example.
> 
> Or admit you pulled it out of your ass.











						Fuel Efficiency: Modes of Transportation Ranked By MPG
					

Building on a previous post on the energy efficiency of various foods, I decided to create a list of transportation modes by fuel efficiency.  In order to compare vehicles with different passenger …




					truecostblog.com
				




This site uses a fuel efficiency rating.
{...

*Transport**Average PMPG**Max PMPG*Bicycle [3]984984Walking [1]700700Freight Ship [10]340570Running [2]315315Freight Train [7]190.5190.5Plugin Hybrid [5]110.6350Motorcycle [4]71.8113Passenger Train [7]71.6189.7Airplane [9]42.653.6Bus [8]38.3330Car [4]35.711318-Wheeler (Truck) [5]32.264.4Light Truck, SUV, Minivan [4]31.491

...}

If we use freight trains do to the fact Amtrak has so little use, we get an average factor of 190.5.
Compare that with a car at only 35.7, and we get a factor of only 6.
So then the 100 claim most likely then was wrong.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 12, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> How can you "invest" in any means of production when no one can own the means of production?



Socialism in no way has ever implied government prevention of private means of production.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 12, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> How does that affect the rich any differently than it affects the poor?



The wealthy have buffer.
The poor live hand to mouth.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 12, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> Good Cause is only required for Labor as the least wealthy under our form of Capitalism.
> 
> Classism.



We are talking about unemployment law being applied differently to the poor and the wealthy.  Good cause is required of both the wealthy and the poor.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 12, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Socialism in no way has ever implied government prevention of private means of production.


Of course it does.  Wherever private means of production is allowed, it wipes out socialist enterprise if they are both voluntary.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 12, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> The wealthy have buffer.
> The poor live hand to mouth.


That isn't the fault of CA labor law.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 12, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> How does that affect the rich any differently than it affects the poor?


Isn't it obvious that Capitalists and the State as wealthiest have Any say whatsoever in at-will employment regarding the Labor as the least wealthy?   Can Labor as the least wealthy require Good Cause from the Capitalist or the State?


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 12, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Socialism in no way has ever implied government prevention of private means of production.


Of course it has.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 12, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> We are talking about unemployment law being applied differently to the poor and the wealthy.  Good cause is required of both the wealthy and the poor.


Not the employer or the State.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 12, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Of course it has.


Eminent domain proves Government is Socialism.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 12, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Socialism in no way has ever implied government prevention of private means of production.


The question is "How is anyone going to invest in a socialist enterprise?"


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 12, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> But they never do produce that abundance.


Why is that?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 12, 2021)

struth said:


> It really got it's boom when the Govt stepped it and over regulated the booze businesses....so at the end of the day, blame Govt overreach


*Prohibition gave organized crime the money to infiltrate politics along with getting political organizing out of the saloons. 

Capitalism provided fertile ground for such an enterprise:*

The Marxist Perspective on Crime

*"Capitalism is Crimogenic* –This means that the Capitalist system encourages criminal behaviour.
*The Law is made by the Capitalist elite* and tends to work in their interests.
*All classes*, not just the working classes *commit crime*, and *the crimes of the Capitalist class are more costly than street crime*.
*The state practices Selective Law Enforcement* – The Criminal Justice system mainly concerns itself with policing and punishing the marginalised, not the wealthy, and this performs ideological functions for the elite classes."




Corporate and White-Collar Prosecutions At All-Time Lows


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 12, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Why is that?


Because it's impossible. Communism is designed to fail.


----------



## struth (Nov 12, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> WRONG!
> 
> In no way does or ever did socialism imply any lack of private personal possession of anything.
> Anyone can invest in any means of production any time they want under socialism.
> ...


maybe you should look up the defiantoo of socia


georgephillip said:


> *Prohibition gave organized crime the money to infiltrate politics along with getting political organizing out of the saloons.
> 
> Capitalism provided fertile ground for such an enterprise:*
> 
> ...


yeah the Govt…lead by the Progressives, banned alcohol!  dumb move 

you are right that capitalism pushed through…there was still high demand, and the criminals (because they sold illegal booze) sold it 

once again, govt overreached.

i’m not quite sure what point you are trying to make?  maybe have a socialist country where what people won’t drink? 

where there is a demand, people will produce…that’s why capitalism is so great because it understands human nature


----------



## dblack (Nov 12, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Prohibition gave organized crime the money to infiltrate politics along with getting political organizing out of the saloons.
> 
> Capitalism provided fertile ground for such an enterprise:*
> 
> ...


Ka-ching! 

Do you have a quota?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 12, 2021)

dblack said:


> 5


Which of those five forms of government do you prefer?


----------



## dblack (Nov 12, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Which of those five forms of government do you prefer?


I was mocking your stupid question with a stupid answer. Do you have a point, so-crates?


----------



## struth (Nov 12, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> Isn't it obvious that Capitalists and the State as wealthiest have Any say whatsoever in at-will employment regarding the Labor as the least wealthy?   Can Labor as the least wealthy require Good Cause from the Capitalist or the State?


yea labor can require “good cause”  or no cause at all…they don’t have to work there at all


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 12, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Creating life saving drugs while making a profit......just terrible.
> 
> No drugs and no profit is much better, eh?


----------



## struth (Nov 12, 2021)

georgephillip said:


>


 Big Pharma, he literally said the same company is selling it in Canada 
.
We get fucked here because Canada won’t pay full price and Americans are left subsidizing the cost for their meds


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 12, 2021)

dblack said:


> In fact, they didn't. I'd wager that no one, ever, actually paid anything close to 90% of their income in taxes. That was populist horseshit to satiate ignorant socialists.


Y*our link*:

"There is a common misconception that high-income Americans are not paying much in taxes compared to what they used to. Proponents of this view often point to the 1950s, when the top federal income tax rate was 91 percent for most of the decade.[1] However, despite these high marginal rates, the top 1 percent of taxpayers in the 1950s only paid about 42 percent of their income in taxes."

*How does that 42% compare to today's effective tax rate on the richest one percent?

top one percent effective tax rate - Google Search*


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 12, 2021)

kaz said:


> I cited IRS STATISTICS you stupid lying fuck. Stop making up shit. And I was talking about today, not the Eisenhower administration


The richest one percent paid an effective tax rate of around 42% when Ike was in the White House, and they pay about half that much today.

https://www.google.com/search?q=top...i22i29i30l2.8815j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 12, 2021)

kaz said:


> Wow, people who don't pay taxes got the smallest part of a tax cut. I mean duh, think about it. THEY DON'T PAY TAXES. And yet you want them to get the most back. You're a fucking moron


You're too fucking MAGA to realize why millions of Americans no longer earn enough to pay taxes at the rates they once did. Why don't you take a few Econ courses at Trump U?

Bitch.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 12, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> Is that why our Founding Fathers gave us a Constitution?


*I think our Founders followed the Magna Carta more than Athenian Democracy. At least that's the view of Yanis Varoufakis. That has led to creditor control of government for thousands of years.*


"In the West, we mistakenly believe that capitalism begets inevitably democracy. 

"It doesn't. Allow me to point out an interesting paradox that is threatening our economies as we speak. I call it the twin peaks paradox. 

"One peak is the mountain of debts that is - has been casting a long shadow over the United States, Europe, the whole world. 

"But few people discern its twin, mountain of idle cash belonging to rich savers and the corporations, too terrified to invest it into the productive activities that can generate the incomes from which you can extinguish the mountain of debts."

*Creditors have controlled every western government for thousands of years; perhaps that is about to change?*


----------



## dblack (Nov 12, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Y*our link*:
> 
> "There is a common misconception that high-income Americans are not paying much in taxes compared to what they used to. Proponents of this view often point to the 1950s, when the top federal income tax rate was 91 percent for most of the decade.[1] However, despite these high marginal rates, the top 1 percent of taxpayers in the 1950s only paid about 42 percent of their income in taxes."
> 
> ...


Yep. That backs up what i said. Where did you get confused?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 12, 2021)

elektra said:


> Organized crime existed long before capitalism. Georgie can't get anything right.. I swear to God, you say stupid bullshit simply for attention.


*So what, Moron.
Markets existed long before capitalism as did government and money.
Does that mean markets, money, markets, and government have no bearing on capitalism today?
Why does anyone as ignorant and stupid as you are waste bandwidth on issues like this?*




The Marxist Perspective on Crime

_"Many Marxists see crime as a natural ‘outgrowth’ of the capitalist system. _The Capitalist system can be said to be crimogenic in three major ways –


"Capitalism encourages individuals to pursue self-interest rather than public duty
Capitalism encourages individuals to be materialistic consumers, making us aspire to an unrealistic and often unattainable lifestyle.
Capitalism in its wake generates massive inequality and poverty, conditions which are correlated with higher crime rates."


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 12, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Of course it does.  Wherever private means of production is allowed, it wipes out socialist enterprise if they are both voluntary.



The other way around.
Socialist enterprise always beats capitalist private enterprise because a socialist enterprise does not have to make a profit.
It is subsidized.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 12, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> The question is "How is anyone going to invest in a socialist enterprise?"



Usually through taxes and voting.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 12, 2021)

struth said:


> maybe you should look up the defiantoo of socia
> 
> yeah the Govt…lead by the Progressives, banned alcohol!  dumb move
> 
> ...



Here is the definition of socialism:

{....
a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned *or regulated by* the community as a whole.
...}

In no way does socialism imply government ownership of all means of production.
Never has.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 12, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Usually through taxes and voting.


NOpe.  Pissing money down the toilet bowl is not investing.  After investing you usually have an asset.  What do you (the individual have after paying taxes?  Answer:  nothing.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 12, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> The other way around.
> Socialist enterprise always beats capitalist private enterprise because a socialist enterprise does not have to make a profit.
> It is subsidized.


When has this ever happened?

By "subsidized" you mean the government loots your money.  That's a 100% loss, not an investment


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 12, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Here is the definition of socialism:
> 
> {....
> a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned *or regulated by* the community as a whole.
> ...


How do you have socialism without government ownership?


----------



## struth (Nov 13, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Here is the definition of socialism:
> 
> {....
> a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned *or regulated by* the community as a whole.
> ...


can you provided a link to your definition.


----------



## elektra (Nov 13, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *So what, Moron.
> Markets existed long before capitalism as did government and money.
> Does that mean markets, money, markets, and government have no bearing on capitalism today?
> Why does anyone as ignorant and stupid as you are waste bandwidth on issues like this?*
> ...


Wrong again. Massive inequality and poverty exist, and existed, before capitalism. Crime existed before capitalism. 

Capitalism did not create that which existed before. Capitalism is responsible for bringing more out of poverty than any other system.

Yes GeorgiePoridgie, you are thee most ignorant attention seeker on this message boards.
Your ideas have murdered and killed more people than any other system ever created.

Fuck you georgieboy


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 13, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Here is the definition of socialism:
> 
> {....
> a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned *or regulated by* the community as a whole.
> ...


That's how many socialists interpret it.


----------



## dblack (Nov 13, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> That's how many socialists interpret it.


Oh goodie, we're playing shell games with definition. "Only *I* know the true meaning of socialism - and I ain't tellin'!"

Socialism, communism, democratic socialism, social democracy - make up whatever euphemism you like, they're all about giving government _more_ control over trade, more control over people. That alone vetoes them in my book.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 13, 2021)

elektra said:


> ou won't support our current, society?


*I don't support certain aspects of our current society like this one:*

"Today, our worldview has a bias – that stockholders are to be paid as much as possible, while employees are to be paid as little as possible."

*Do you?

The Divine Right of Capital by Marjorie Kelly*


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 13, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> That's how many socialists interpret it.


Not at all.  That is only what the ignorant right-wing claims it is.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 13, 2021)

elektra said:


> Yea, it is called the constitution of our republic.


*You made the idiotic claim:*

"Government is what destroys capitalism, and what man creates for himself. My work is my property, my labor is not the property of government, which is what you advocate."

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CDOC-108hdoc94/pdf/CDOC-108hdoc94.pdf

"The Constitution is the basic and supreme law of the US, providing the legal foundation on which all actions must rest and enumerates and guarantees the rights due all its citizens."

*I showed you how corporations and capitalism don't exist without government, and how your precious property would be much more expensive to defend without government.

Are you saying the fundamental law of this Republic destroys capitalism or are you too fucking MAGA-stupid to know what you are trying to say?*


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 13, 2021)

elektra said:


> Moron!


----------



## task0778 (Nov 13, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Here is the definition of socialism:
> 
> {....
> a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned *or regulated by* the community as a whole.
> ...



Ownership is the state or fact of exclusive rights and control over property, which may be any asset, including an object, land or real estate, intellectual property, or until the nineteenth century, human beings.  Property includes but is not limited to the means of production, distribution, and exchange.  Is there any other way to do that other than through gov't?  NO.  Therefore, socialism implies gov't ownership and control.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 13, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> agree, "neither USSR type socialism of US style capitalism is based on economic democracy", but I believe both the USSR and the US are oligarchies of the wealthy elite capitalists.


*The USSR had its elites, but I don't think its oligarchs rivaled those that currently exist in Russia and the US. Michael Hudson has done the best job I've seen in documenting how creditors have ruled every government since the end of the Roman Republic:*

The DNA of Western civilization is financially unstable | Michael Hudson

 "By contrast, look where Antiquity ended up by the 2nd century BC. Rome physically devastated Athens, Sparta, Corinth and the rest of Greece. 

"By the Mithridatic Wars (88-63 BC) their temples were looted and their cities driven into unpayably high debt to Roman tax collectors and Italian moneylenders. 

*"Subsequent Western civilization developed not from the democracy in Athens but from oligarchies supported by Rome. *

"Democratic states were physically destroyed, blocking civic regulatory power and imposing pro-creditor legal principles making foreclosures and forced land sales irreversible."


----------



## dblack (Nov 13, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *I don't support certain aspects of our current society like this one:*
> 
> "Today, our worldview has a bias – that stockholders are to be paid as much as possible, while employees are to be paid as little as possible."


Speak for yourself. That's not my worldview. And I don't really know anyone who would claim that as general premise. It's just more socialist propaganda. Strawman for the win!


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 13, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *I don't support certain aspects of our current society like this one:*
> 
> "Today, our worldview has a bias – that stockholders are to be paid as much as possible, while employees are to be paid as little as possible."
> 
> ...


Stockbrokers are employees, nimrod.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 13, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Because it's a big fat commie lie, asshole.


Like this one?


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 13, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Like this one?


What's the lie?


----------



## elektra (Nov 13, 2021)

georgephillip said:


>





georgephillip said:


>


Moron, is the only response to your attention seeking


----------



## task0778 (Nov 13, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> _"Many Marxists see crime as a natural ‘outgrowth’ of the capitalist system. _The Capitalist system can be said to be crimogenic in three major ways –
> 
> 
> "Capitalism encourages individuals to pursue self-interest rather than public duty
> ...



This is total crap.  I would say that that most people pursue self-interest rather than public duty no matter what gov't or economic system they live under.  The difference is that in reality a capitalistic economy creates far more wealth than any other model or theory.  You are in effect bitching about the fact that the benefits of capitalism far outweigh the alternatives.  The fact that increased wealth creation also attracts greedy, unprincipled, and immoral people does not detract from it's net positives for everybody concerned.  Capitalism creates wealth, but it does not regulate it;  that is the function of gov't no matter what economic system is in play.  

I would posit that any type of economic system that exists today, or ever existed, or ever will exist will attract greedy, unprincipled, and immoral people who will take any advantage they can to increase their own wealth, and the extent to which that economic system creates wealth correlates with the numbers of those people and the amount of their ill-gotten wealth.  Our problem today is not that we create too much wealth, it's that we do a poor job of governing that creation and distribution.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 13, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> NOpe.  Pissing money down the toilet bowl is not investing.  After investing you usually have an asset.  What do you (the individual have after paying taxes?  Answer:  nothing.



Taxes are SUPPOSED to be an investment in infrastructure, schools, transportation, water, trees, parks, safety, etc.
In rural areas, shared investments are common, like coops for equipment, grain elevators, etc.
The employees collectively bought the Chicago Northwestern Railroad.
That is the way we should have dealt with our national fossil fuels, like coal and oil.
It should have been gathered and distributed by collective enterprise, to the benefit of all, not just sold for pennies on the dollar, to the wealthy elite.

It is true the government can be wasteful, but whose fault is that?
After all, most of our taxes are wasted on military spending, when we have not really been attacked since 1812.
We are the ones who are supposed to be watching over what government does and spends on.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 13, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> When has this ever happened?
> 
> By "subsidized" you mean the government loots your money.  That's a 100% loss, not an investment



The US government subsidized US agriculture, making food less expensive for all of us.
In Sweden, the government subsidized Volvo, so then they never have to lay off people during slow sales periods.
With a good democratic republic, then government should be much more honest, open, and reliable than private enterprise.
The only times private enterprise has some advantages are when you have people like Elon Musk, who is innovative, and faster than a bureacracy.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 13, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> How do you have socialism without government ownership?



Easy.
For example, if cars are polluting to the point it becomes a health hazard, then you pass laws to regulate and restrict how much pollution they can emit.
You get the responsible result you want of safer products, without government actually owning the companies.
When the democratic republic regulates business, the same goals can be reached without actual public enterprise ownership.

But public ownership also can be much more efficient.
For example, in WI, there is a need for drivers for garbage trucks, school buses, mass transit buses, snow plows, etc.
So in WI these are all public.
That way, when it snow, then bus drivers report to garbage trucks that have had plows attached, and away they go.
Costs a lot less, and is very flexible.
School bus drivers are also regular bus drivers, so keep up their skills.
By being able to switch roles, then you can load balance much easier, without having to have so many extra people on the payroll, for reserve.

They also do very efficient things like use the garbage incinerators to produce steam that they then pipe to all the downtown businesses, for free heat.
Very useful in the cold WI winters.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 13, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Easy.
> For example, if cars are polluting to the point it becomes a health hazard, then you pass laws to regulate and restrict how much pollution they can emit.
> You get the responsible result you want of safer products, without government actually owning the companies.
> When the democratic republic regulates business, the same goals can be reached without actual public enterprise ownership.



That isn't government ownership.


Rigby5 said:


> But public ownership also can be much more efficient.



What the fuck is a "public ownership law?'


Rigby5 said:


> For example, in WI, there is a need for drivers for garbage trucks, school buses, mass transit buses, snow plows, etc.
> So in WI these are all public.



No they aren't.  I lot of towns in WI have privately owned waste disposal.  You're claiming that government regulation is the equivalent of socialism, and every prog in here will dispute that claim.


Rigby5 said:


> That way, when it snow, then bus drivers report to garbage trucks that have had plows attached, and away they go.
> Costs a lot less, and is very flexible.
> School bus drivers are also regular bus drivers, so keep up their skills.
> By being able to switch roles, then you can load balance much easier, without having to have so many extra people on the payroll, for reserve.
> ...


You're talking about private companies, but you're delusional if you believe government run enterprises are efficient.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 13, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> The US government subsidized US agriculture, making food less expensive for all of us.


It makes food more expensive when you include the cost of the subsidies.



Rigby5 said:


> In Sweden, the government subsidized Volvo, so then they never have to lay off people during slow sales periods.



I'm not sure that's true.  Can you prove the Swedish government subsidizes Volve?


Rigby5 said:


> With a good democratic republic, then government should be much more honest, open, and reliable than private enterprise.


It has never worked.



Rigby5 said:


> The only times private enterprise has some advantages are when you have people like Elon Musk, who is innovative, and faster than a bureacracy.


Name an industry where government produces better services and products than private enterprise.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 13, 2021)

task0778 said:


> This is total crap.  I would say that that most people pursue self-interest rather than public duty no matter what gov't or economic system they live under.  The difference is that in reality a capitalistic economy creates far more wealth than any other model or theory.  You are in effect bitching about the fact that the benefits of capitalism far outweigh the alternatives.  The fact that increased wealth creation also attracts greedy, unprincipled, and immoral people does not detract from it's net positives for everybody concerned.  Capitalism creates wealth, but it does not regulate it;  that is the function of gov't no matter what economic system is in play.
> 
> I would posit that any type of economic system that exists today, or ever existed, or ever will exist will attract greedy, unprincipled, and immoral people who will take any advantage they can to increase their own wealth, and the extent to which that economic system creates wealth correlates with the numbers of those people and the amount of their ill-gotten wealth.  Our problem today is not that we create too much wealth, it's that we do a poor job of governing that creation and distribution.



Except that the pursuit of individual wealth can and does destroy whole societies.
That is how we went from primitive cooperative tribes of hunter/gatherers, to evil colonial empires with slavery, like the Greeks sacking Troy, the Romans decimating as far as Britain, Atilla the Hun, the Mongol Horde, Crusaders, Conquistadors, WWI, WWII, etc.

Going back to recent US history, think back to just the 1950s in the US, when we had the far more efficient trolley system.
GM, Std, Oil, and others went from city to city, lobbying to remove all the more efficient trollies and replace them with the far more deadly freeways system that polluted and isolated neighborhoods.
We never should have done that, and switched to the automobile economy.
It is wasteful, polluting, far more dangerous, expensive, and unsustainable in the long run.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 13, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Except that the pursuit of individual wealth can and does destroy whole societies.


How?


Rigby5 said:


> That is how we went from primitive cooperative tribes of hunter/gatherers, to evil colonial empires with slavery, like the Greeks sacking Troy, the Romans decimating as far as Britain, Atilla the Hun, the Mongol Horde, Crusaders, Conquistadors, WWI, WWII, etc.


So you see no difference between thugs who use force to take wealth and businessmen who create products and services to acquire wealth?



Rigby5 said:


> Going back to recent US history, think back to just the 1950s in the US, when we had the far more efficient trolley system.
> GM, Std, Oil, and others went from city to city, lobbying to remove all the more efficient trollies and replace them with the far more deadly freeways system that polluted and isolated neighborhoods.
> We never should have done that, and switched to the automobile economy.
> It is wasteful, polluting, far more dangerous, expensive, and unsustainable in the long run.



The trolleys were gone long before the interstates were created.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 13, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> That isn't government ownership.
> 
> 
> What the fuck is a "public ownership law?'
> ...



Yes, that is the point, that socialism does NOT require public ownership if you can achieve the same goals just by legislating private enterprise adequately.

I have no idea what "public ownership law" means because I never wrote that.
But the point is that public ownership of any enterprise is always legal.
We can choose to allow private enterprise to supply our needs if we want, but as voters, we can also decide to engage in public enterprise any time we want, and we should, when private enterprise does it badly.  And example of private enterprise doing badly is health care and insurance companies.

Yes, I should not have said ALL of WI, but I did not want to start getting city specific.
Government regulation IS socialism, and no one can dispute that.
Using Sweden as an example, their socialism is always a private and public partnership.

Government can be inefficient, but that is always when either the voters are doing a bad job, or when big business has interfered.
Private enterprise is always very inefficient because they always skim profits off instead of reinvesting, and you can never count on private enterprise.
If something needs expensive updating, like railroads, private enterprise will just drop the essential resource and move investments into something else, like transAtlantic cable.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 13, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> It makes food more expensive when you include the cost of the subsidies.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Agricultural subsidies do not make food more expensive even when you include the cost of the subsidies.
That is because agriculture has ups and downs that would otherwise put all the little farms under.
The subsidies maintain more stable prices and financing, allowing smaller farms to not go bankrupt.
And that allows for much lower prices over all.
Agricultural subsidies do not always cost anything.
They are mostly for weathering bad times, which can be infrequent.

How Volvo is socialist is complicated.
But here is an explanation of how the board of directors is regulated by law.
{...
Independence requirements​The Board of Directors of AB Volvo must meet independence requirements pursuant to the Swedish Corporate Governance Code ("the Code"). Further, the Audit Committee must meet independence requirements pursuant to the Swedish Companies Act. Below follows a short description of the independence requirements.
The independence requirements mainly state that only one person from the company's management may be a member of the Board, that a majority of the Board members elected by the General Meeting shall be independent of the company and the company management and that at least two of the Board members elected by the General Meeting who are independent of the company and the company's management shall also be independent of the company's major shareholders.
In addition, the Code demands that a majority of the members in the Audit Committee shall be independent of the company and the company management and that at least one of the members who is independent of the company and the company management shall also be independent of the company's major shareholders.
According to the Swedish Companies Act, the members of the Audit Committee may not be employees of the company and at least one member of the Audit Committee shall be independent of the company, the company management and the company's largest shareholders and shall have accounting and auditing expertise.
With regard to the Remuneration Committee, the Code sets the requirement that members of the Remuneration Committee, with the exception of the Board Chairman if a member of the Remuneration Committee, shall be independent of the company and company management.
...}








						Board of Directors
					

The Board of Directors at Volvo Group is charged with the organization of the company and management of the company's operations.




					www.volvogroup.com
				




As far as government enterprises, they always work better.
Almost all historic achievements have been done by government.
From the Roman aqueducts to NASA, private enterprise would never take the risks or have the public interests at heart.

It is easy to show examples of public enterprise doing better than private.
The Internet is a good start,
Health care in the rest of the world is another.
Just imagine how terrible the society would be if roads and schools were all private?


----------



## task0778 (Nov 13, 2021)

> task0778 said:
> This is total crap. I would say that that most people pursue self-interest rather than public duty no matter what gov't or economic system they live under. The difference is that in reality a capitalistic economy creates far more wealth than any other model or theory. You are in effect bitching about the fact that the benefits of capitalism far outweigh the alternatives. The fact that increased wealth creation also attracts greedy, unprincipled, and immoral people does not detract from it's net positives for everybody concerned. Capitalism creates wealth, but it does not regulate it; that is the function of gov't no matter what economic system is in play.
> 
> I would posit that any type of economic system that exists today, or ever existed, or ever will exist will attract greedy, unprincipled, and immoral people who will take any advantage they can to increase their own wealth, and the extent to which that economic system creates wealth correlates with the numbers of those people and the amount of their ill-gotten wealth. Our problem today is not that we create too much wealth, it's that we do a poor job of governing that creation and distribution.



_Rigby:

Except that the pursuit of individual wealth can and does destroy whole societies.
That is how we went from primitive cooperative tribes of hunter/gatherers, to evil colonial empires with slavery, like the Greeks sacking Troy, the Romans decimating as far as Britain, Atilla the Hun, the Mongol Horde, Crusaders, Conquistadors, WWI, WWII, etc._


Me:  
So, I take it you would rather have all of humanity living as primitive cooperative tribes of hunter/gatherers?  I sometimes think that myself, but would people really be better off?  Consider just the advances in medicine and healthcare that came to be under capitalistic systems, do you contend that those advances would have happened anyway?  Is it a coincidence that longer lifespans and better birthrates have occurred since the implementation of capitalism?   What about starvation, do you think that capitalism was a primary motivation that led to greater production of more nutritious food?  What makes you think anything else could have been a major factor?  You tell me, would you rather be alive pre-capitalism, i.e., prior to 1800 or thereabouts?  

As you suggest, unbridled greed can be hugely destructive and of course existed long before capitalism came along.  I do not believe that any form of human enterprise is going to change that, but I believe your problem is that you expect capitalism is at fault for the various forms of human vice, when in fact it is supposed to be the function of gov't to do that as effectively and efficiently as possible.  The problem seems to be that democracy, particularly a representative democracy, is neither effective or efficient in doing that as long as human rights have to be honored.

_Going back to recent US history, think back to just the 1950s in the US, when we had the far more efficient trolley system.
GM, Std, Oil, and others went from city to city, lobbying to remove all the more efficient trollies and replace them with the far more deadly freeways system that polluted and isolated neighborhoods.
We never should have done that, and switched to the automobile economy.
It is wasteful, polluting, far more dangerous, expensive, and unsustainable in the long run._


Me:  So, no cars, no trucks, no buses, no airplanes?  Have you fucking lost your mind?  Newsflash:  the creation of our freeway system was a gov't decision that had nothing to do with capitalism.  It had to do with national defense, linking arsenals and supply depots so materiel could be quickly moved to wherever it needed to be within the US.  in light of the current supply line problem, I wonder how things would be today without our freeways.  

I'm sure you know that the switch to cars and trucks was a decision made by consumers, it was their choice.  I can only surmise that you would rather have a central gov't that totally controls every choice you make and decides what is best for you.  Trollies for God's sake;  yeah, I'm having a heart attack so I guess I'll take the next fucking trolley to the hospital.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 13, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> How?
> 
> So you see no difference between thugs who use force to take wealth and businessmen who create products and services to acquire wealth?
> 
> ...



As I pointed out, all wars are actually over private individuals trying to maximize profits.
For example, we now know the WMD lies about Iraq were financed mostly by TX oil companies that wanted oil prices to increase by shutting down Iraqi oil for awhile.

The only difference between thugs using force and businessmen who produce products, is regulation from legislation.
If businessmen could get away with it, they would just invest in thugs if they were allowed, because that is cheaper.
If you want an example of harmful private enterprise, just look at tobacco.

I am older than you obviously, because I do remember the trollies of the 50's.
You are wrong about that.
Cars even did not really take off until the 50's.
There were very few freeways until the 50's.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 13, 2021)

task0778 said:


> _Rigby:
> 
> Except that the pursuit of individual wealth can and does destroy whole societies.
> That is how we went from primitive cooperative tribes of hunter/gatherers, to evil colonial empires with slavery, like the Greeks sacking Troy, the Romans decimating as far as Britain, Atilla the Hun, the Mongol Horde, Crusaders, Conquistadors, WWI, WWII, etc._
> ...



Remembering that humans ARE primitive hunter/gatherers by instinct, does not mean we can not invent technology.
It just means we should be careful at to what technology we create, and keep it appropriate.
Agriculture is not inherently bad, because it is similar to gathering, and does make food sources much more reliable.
However, is is agriculture that provided the excess production that resulted in currency, mercenaries, land ownership claims, wars, etc.
If we can regulate the good in order to minimize the bad, that would be best.
And I think it is clear socialism does that best.
For example, ancient Egypt used the priesthood to keep the whole society under efficient socialist regulation.
From what we know of ancient Egypt, there was no slavery or abuses, as the movies like to claim.

Technology does NOT come from capitalism.
Capitalists never risk money on basic research.
All technological advances have come from public investment.
That is true with all vaccines, airplanes, physics, space travel, internet, radio, computers, bridges, the arch, aqueducts, etc.

Mass transit includes trucks, buses, planes, etc.
It is just the individual cars that would go away.
They are too inefficient and dangerous.
Obviously you would not worry about the minor pollution and accident concerns with ambulances.
I would go so far as to suggest that we should make mass transit free.
I like Elon Musk's Hyperloop, all underground and 200 mph for long distance travel.
But it could never happen under private funding.
Has to be done publicly.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 13, 2021)

I was calling them "trolleys", but the more common name is "streetcar".
As in "Streetcar Named Desire".









						The real story behind the demise of America's once-mighty streetcars
					

It wasn't a GM-driven conspiracy.




					www.vox.com
				




{...
The real story behind the demise of America's once-mighty streetcars​By Joseph Stromberg  May 7, 2015, 9:20am EDT

Back in the 1920s, most American city-dwellers took public transportation to work every day.

There were 17,000 miles of streetcar lines across the country, running through virtually every major American city. That included cities we don't think of as hubs for mass transit today: Atlanta, Raleigh, and Los Angeles.

Nowadays, by contrast, just 5 percent or so of workers commute via public transit, and they're disproportionately clustered in a handful of dense cities like New York, Boston, and Chicago. Just a handful of cities still have extensive streetcar systems — and several others are now spending millions trying to build new, smaller ones.

So whatever happened to all those streetcars?

"There's this widespread conspiracy theory that the streetcars were bought up by a company National City Lines, which was effectively controlled by GM, so that they could be torn up and converted into bus lines," says Peter Norton, a historian at the University of Virginia and author of _Fighting Traffic: The Dawn of the Motor Age in the American City._

But that's not actually the full story, he says. "By the time National City Lines was buying up these streetcar companies, they were already in bankruptcy."

Surprisingly, though, streetcars didn't solely go bankrupt because people chose cars over rail. The real reasons for the streetcar's demise are much less nefarious than a GM-driven conspiracy — they include gridlock and city rules that kept fares artificially low — but they're fascinating in their own right, and if you're a transit fan, they're even more frustrating.
...}


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 13, 2021)

Mac-7 said:


> But those happy little pockets of “democracy” will not be happy for long without America to protect them


Which country do you imagine Norway and Denmark need protection from? Which country has sent its military half-way around the world and maimed, murdered, and displaced millions of innocent civilians for the greater glory of Wall Street?




The Middle East Isn’t Worth It Anymore


----------



## dblack (Nov 13, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> If we can regulate the good in order to minimize the bad, that would be best. And I think it is clear socialism does that best.


That's an odd perspective. Care to elaborate? What does "regulate the good" mean?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 13, 2021)

Mac-7 said:


> And we need a booming capitalist economy to do that


Booming for whom?




If your "booming" economy depends on killing innocent civilians, you are not one of the "good guys."

Causes of income inequality in the United States - Wikipedia


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 13, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Which country do you imagine Norway and Denmark need protection from? Which country has sent its military half-way around the world and maimed, murdered, and displaced millions of innocent civilians for the greater glory of Wall Street?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Add to that Panama, Grenada, Nicaragua, Vietnam, etc.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 13, 2021)

kaz said:


> You're a liar, that's what conservatives want. It's your side that is focused on equality of results, lying racist pig


My side never supported Jim Crow.




Conservative crackers did.
And you still do.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 13, 2021)

dblack said:


> That's an odd perspective. Care to elaborate? What does "regulate the good" mean?



Regulate the good means to prevent entrepreneurs from doing abusive things like dumping, monopolies, buying up shelf space, etc.
For example, we legislate (or used to), things like headlight shape and size, tire sizes, etc., so that there is not an expensive and difficult lack of standards, as there use to be at one time.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 13, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> A shit-ton more than you.


Prove it.
Turd.


----------



## dblack (Nov 13, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Regulate the good means to prevent entrepreneurs from doing abusive things like dumping, monopolies, buying up shelf space, etc.


How is someone doing abusive things good? It seems like that would be regulating the bad.


Rigby5 said:


> For example, we legislate (or used to), things like headlight shape and size, tire sizes, etc., so that there is not an expensive and difficult lack or standards, as there use to be at one time.


Oh, so you mean conformity just for convenience sake? I'm ok with that when there's a clear need for it, when there's a large degree of consensus, _and_ when the limitation on rights is minimal (stop signs, for example). Outside of that, such regulation should be kept at a minimum. If there's not a clear consensus, and the imposition is significant, the majority should not be allowed to force the minority to conform merely for their convenience.

Still not sure what you mean by "regulate the good" - you clearly mean more than just punishing those who cause harm.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 13, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Marx was funny. Especially when he talks about economics.


Where did you study Economics?
How many books on the subject have you written?
Are you arrogant or stupid enough to believe anyone will ever confuse your insights with those of Marx?
Why don't you swallow a shit-ton of Trump's sperm and die?


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 13, 2021)

dblack said:


> How is someone doing abusive things good? It seems like that would be regulating the bad.
> 
> Oh, so you mean conformity just for convenience sake? I'm ok with that when there's a clear need for it, when there's a large degree of consensus, and when the limitation on rights is minimal (stop signs, for example). Outside of that, such regulation should be kept at a minimum. If there's not a clear consensus, and the imposition is significant, the majority should not be allowed to force the minority to conform merely for their convenience.
> 
> Still not sure what you mean by "regulate the good" - you clearly mean more than just punishing those who cause harm.



The greater good is the private entrepreneur making some thing innovative and marketable.
But if he then employs abusive minor bad, while producing this greater good, that can still be a problem.
The word "regulate" does not mean to prevent, but to keep within certain parameters.
You do not want to regulate the bad but prevent it all together.
Regulating the good means to prevent it from becoming bad, by ensuring it conforms to within acceptable procedures.

I did not mean confomity just for convenience sake, but how manufacturers can deliberately try to be harmful to competition, but end up harming every one in the process.

For example, consider how much cheaper and easier it would be to do Electronic Vehicles if there was a single battery form factor?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 13, 2021)

dblack said:


> Democracy is the majority forcing its will on everyone else. That should only be allowed when it's absolutely necessary for everyone to be on the same page. In most cases, it's not.


So which segment of society controls the monopoly of violence, oligarchs or the majority?


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 13, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> So which segment of society controls the monopoly of violence, oligarchs or the majority?



Good point, in that it seem to me that the main violence comes from the police, not just shooting innocents, but the illegal War on Drugs, asset forfeiture, mandated sentencing, etc.


----------



## dblack (Nov 13, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> So which segment of society controls the monopoly of violence, oligarchs or the majority?


The leaders we elect control the monopoly of violence. Do you have a point?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 13, 2021)

dblack said:


> Giving government even more control over our money would be a terrible mistake.


*Do you imagine Wall Street would provide a  more equal opportunity to the ownership of property than a properly functioning democracy?*

democritize money - Google Search

"People also ask​"What does it mean to democratize money?

"Democratizing money will therefore *ensure equal opportunity to the ownership of property*, and thus full participation in the democratic governance of society, as well as equal access to the banking system, which finances the creation of capital via the creation of money. ...

Democratizing Money - Levy Economics Institute of Bard College​


----------



## dblack (Nov 13, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Do you imagine Wall Street would provide a  more equal opportunity to the ownership of property than a properly functioning democracy?*
> 
> democritize money - Google Search
> 
> ...


Giving government even more control over our money would be a terrible mistake.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 13, 2021)

dblack said:


> The leaders we elect control the monopoly of violence. Do you have a point?



And by controlling the media, the oligarchs control the elections.
That should be obvious from the candidates we get pushed on us.
I mean Biden, Trump, and Hillary, have got to be about the worst possible choice I have ever seen.


----------



## dblack (Nov 13, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Do you imagine Wall Street would provide a  more equal opportunity to the ownership of property than a properly functioning democracy?*
> 
> democritize money - Google Search
> 
> ...











						The Coming Democratization Of Currency
					

Friedman felt that money had to be government-issued and its supply managed by a central bank.




					www.forbes.com


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 13, 2021)

dblack said:


> Giving government even more control over our money would be a terrible mistake.



Aren't the oligarchs even worse?  
Remember the oligarchs implemented slavery and we created government in order to end slavery,


----------



## dblack (Nov 13, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> And by controlling the media, the oligarchs control the elections.


Clearly, government should control the media, comrade.


----------



## dblack (Nov 13, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Aren't the oligarchs even worse?


"Oligarchs” is the left's "deep state" - a vaguely defined boogeyman to scare the children.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 13, 2021)

dblack said:


> White America??? Listen you ignorant motherfucker - if you are implying I'm a racist, you can go fuck yourself. With a pitchfork. In the ass. Hard.


Are you feeling guilty or are you ignorant about the role white supremacy played in US politics in 1945? Stick your pitchfork where it feels best, Troll.


----------



## dblack (Nov 13, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Are you feeling guilty or are you ignorant about the role white supremacy played in US politics in 1945? Stick your pitchfork where it feels best, Troll.


If you don't like my reply, don't insinuate I'm a racist. Pretty simple.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 13, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Every legitimate economist, including Milton Friedman


Every legitimate fascist...


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 13, 2021)

dblack said:


> "Oligarchs” is the left's "deep state" - a vaguely defined boogeyman to scare the children.



True, but they are also real.
The word Fascist comes from the Roman oligarchs.
It was a coalition of the wealthy elite aristocracy, military, and priesthood.
The lictors carried an axe handle as a badge of office, that was called a facia.
The symbol of the oligrachs was the bundle of facia tied around a single axe.







This Roman facia bundle is what is on the back of the Mercury dime.
It is the symbol of the wealthy elite who ruled Rome.
E Pluribus Unum means strength through unity, and referred to the members of the wealthy elite coalition.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 13, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Yes, that is the point, that socialism does NOT require public ownership if you can achieve the same goals just by legislating private enterprise adequately.


Yes it is. 



Rigby5 said:


> I have no idea what "public ownership law" means because I never wrote that.
> But the point is that public ownership of any enterprise is always legal.


No one said it wasn't legal, so that isn't the point.


Rigby5 said:


> We can choose to allow private enterprise to supply our needs if we want, but as voters, we can also decide to engage in public enterprise any time we want, and we should, when private enterprise does it badly.  And example of private enterprise doing badly is health care and insurance companies.


You mean we can adopt socialism any time we want.  Tell us something we don't already know.


Rigby5 said:


> Yes, I should not have said ALL of WI, but I did not want to start getting city specific.
> Government regulation IS socialism, and no one can dispute that.
> Using Sweden as an example, their socialism is always a private and public partnership.


All your fellow progs on this forum do dispute it.  Take it up with them.


Rigby5 said:


> Government can be inefficient, but that is always when either the voters are doing a bad job, or when big business has interfered.
> Private enterprise is always very inefficient because they always skim profits off instead of reinvesting, and you can never count on private enterprise.
> If something needs expensive updating, like railroads, private enterprise will just drop the essential resource and move investments into something else, like transAtlantic cable.



Government is always inefficient.  You claim private enterprise fails to reinvest, yet government flushes every dime it gets down the toilet.  What happened to the 900 billion that Obama "invested?"  What happened to the $3 trillion in COVID "stimulus" we just "invested?"


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 13, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Every legitimate fascist...


That's what capitalism does, moron.  That's what he meant.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 13, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Do you imagine Wall Street would provide a  more equal opportunity to the ownership of property than a properly functioning democracy?*
> 
> democritize money - Google Search
> 
> ...


What you mean by it is organized plunder.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 13, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Yes it is.
> 
> 
> No one said it wasn't legal, so that isn't the point.
> ...



The stimulus money that Obama, Trump, and Biden handed out mostly went to private enterprise.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 13, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> The stimulus money that Obama, Trump, and Biden handed out mostly went to private enterprise.


It mostly went to Democrat employees of the government.


----------



## Mac-7 (Nov 13, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Which country do you imagine Norway and Denmark need protection from?


China

But that does not mean a military invasion

China has many ways to enslave weaker foreign countries


----------



## Mac-7 (Nov 13, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> If your "booming" economy depends on killing innocent civilians


It doesent


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 14, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Leftwing propaganda. The government caused it by forcing lenders to give mortgages to people who couldn't pay them.


*Cite the law requiring liars' loans*.
*Cite the government regulations requiring ratings agencies to give liars' loans triple-A ratings.*

William K. Black - Wikipedia

"On April 3, 2009 Black appeared on _Bill Moyers Journal_ on PBS and provided critical commentary on the U.S. banking crisis. 

"Black asserted that the banking crisis in the US that started in late 2008 *is essentially a big Ponzi scheme;* that the 'liar loans' and other financial tricks were essentially illegal frauds; and that *the triple-A ratings given to these loans was part of a criminal cover-up.* 

"He said that the 'Prompt Corrective Action Law' passed after the Savings and loan crisis mandated that ailing banks should be put into receivership. 

"Black also stated that trying to hide how bad the situation is will simply prolong the problem, as happened in Japan and resulted in Japan's lost decade. 

*"Black stated that Timothy Geithner was engaged in a cover-up, and that the administration did not want people to understand what went wrong or how bad the banking situation was."*


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 14, 2021)

dblack said:


> And by propagating the presumption that government will bail everyone out when things go tits up.


Except government did not "bail everyone out..." in the wake of the Great Recession; it bailed out the oligarchs who provide campaign funding while allowing the majority of the oligarchs' victims to lose their homes, jobs, and savings.


----------



## dblack (Nov 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Except government did not "bail everyone out..."


Of course not. They only bail out their buddies. That's now "free shit" government works.


----------



## Mac-7 (Nov 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Cite the law requiring liars' loans*.
> *Cite the government regulations requiring ratings agencies to give liars' loans triple-A ratings.*


The left denies it now, but starting as early as the clinton presidency great pressure was put on lenders to make risky loans on poor neighborhoods

Liberals pushed their favorite minority into situations that were over their heads snd sure to fail


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 14, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Anyone who asks a question like that is too stupid to argue with. What did they do? They put their hard earned money down and bought shares, you fucking moron.


How does shareholder money facilitate production of goods and services? Are shareholders assets or expenses? Why is shareholder income prioritized over employee income? What makes you think unearned income is more productive than earned income?
Stock Buybacks Are A Parasite On The US Economy




_*"Capital Income + Retained earnings = Revenue – (Employee income + Cost of materials)*_

"Kelly uses some simple algebra to show that this formula could just as easily be re-written as:

_*"Employee income + Retained earnings = Revenue – (Capital income + Cost of materials)*_

In other words, the company could just as easily be optimized to maximize employee income. All it takes is a perspective shift. 

"Kelly then talks about the fact that employees don’t even show up on the corporate balance sheet. 

"That’s because employees are seen as an expense, not an asset..."

The Divine Right of Capital by Marjorie Kelly


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 14, 2021)

dblack said:


> Thus the USSR became infamous for people waiting in line for products and services that the government didn't sufficiently fund and warehouses full of shit no one wanted.


What number of warehouses were filled with shit no one wanted?
The USSR sacrificed production of consumer goods because "the greatest purveyor of violence in the world" forced the Soviets to prioritize military spending.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 14, 2021)

dblack said:


> Socialists simply can't comprehend the importance of efficient resource allocation. I saw a great presentation, some 25 years ago, from a former high ranking Soviet economic planner. He understood this principle very well - because, for years, it was his job to make the decisions that investors make in a free market: ie deciding which projects should be funded and how much funding they should get.


Socialists understand very clearly the difference between primary and secondary securities markets




Do you?

Secondary Securities Market


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Except government did not "bail everyone out..." in the wake of the Great Recession; it bailed out the oligarchs who provide campaign funding while allowing the majority of the oligarchs' victims to lose their homes, jobs, and savings.



Citing some commie "economist" doesn't support your case.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> What number of warehouses were filled with shit no one wanted?
> The USSR sacrificed production of consumer goods because "the greatest purveyor of violence in the world" forced the Soviets to prioritize military spending.





			https://www.libertarianism.org/columns/world-without-prices-economic-calculation-soviet-union
		


_Even with the myriad resources at its disposal, Gosplan found itself utterly unable to predict demand. Since output was predetermined on an annual basis, when retailers ran out of a good for a specified year, there was simply no more to go around. Likewise, since prices were fixed by Gosplan, retailers couldn’t lower prices to encourage consumers to buy more of a product they had in excess or raise prices on a product that was in short supply but widely demanded. Chronic surpluses and shortages came to define the Soviet economic experience._​​This shows why you're a communist.  You're totally ignorant of history and economics


----------



## dblack (Nov 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> What number of warehouses were filled with shit no one wanted?


1,893


georgephillip said:


> The USSR sacrificed production of consumer goods because "the greatest purveyor of violence in the world" forced the Soviets to prioritize military spending.


Of course. It was all someone else's fault.


----------



## dblack (Nov 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Socialists understand very clearly the difference between primary and secondary securities markets


So what? 

I'll repeat this, since you either didn't understand it, or didn't read it:

"Socialists simply can't comprehend the importance of efficient resource allocation. I saw a great presentation, some 25 years ago, from a former high ranking Soviet economic planner. He understood this principle very well - because, for years, it was his job to make the decisions that investors make in a free market: ie deciding which projects should be funded and how much funding they should get."

But you know, just ignore what people are saying and post your propaganda memes instead. Ka-ching.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 14, 2021)

dblack said:


> 1,893
> 
> Of course. It was someone else's fault.


His argument is basically "they made the USSR do it!   Whaaaaa!"


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 14, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> So Cuba, Venezuela and North Korea are doing a great job of satisfying the needs of the vast majority?


Cuba has a lower Covid mortality rate than this country.
Venezuela's economy is crippled by illegal US sanctions.
North Korea was bombed into the stone age trying to remove an American-supplied military dictator.  Why are capitalists afraid to compete on anything resembling a level playing field?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 14, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> It's not fascism.


You're lying




Donald Trump's fascist inclinations do not bother his fans


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Cuba has a lower Covid mortality rate than this country.


That isn't what I asked,


georgephillip said:


> Venezuela's economy is crippled by illegal US sanctions.


They are perfectly legal, and that's what communists like you do whenever one of your disasters occurs



georgephillip said:


> North Korea was bombed into the stone age trying to remove an American-supplied military dictator.  Why are capitalists afraid to compete on anything resembling a level playing field?



South Korea was also "bombed into the Stone Age," moron.  What could be more level than the competition between North and South Korea?


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> You're lying
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cartoons don't prove diddly squat, moron.


----------



## dblack (Nov 14, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Cartoons don't prove diddly squat, moron.


Yes, but they count double toward his posting quota.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 14, 2021)

dblack said:


> Yes, but they count double toward his posting quota.


George is always talking about logical fallacies.  Then he posts a cartoon to support his claims.


----------



## dblack (Nov 14, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> George is always talking about logical fallacies.  Then he posts a cartoon to support his claims.


Cartoons, and other simplistic, populist nonsense, have long been a staple of communist propaganda. They're not trying to make logical argument, just an emotional appeal. They employ envy, fear, racism, slurs, paranoia etc.... to incite the rabble. Much like Trump.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 14, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> The market does a lot better job than government does. Why isn't the term "government failure" in your vocabulary?


Because capitalists control every government on the planet today.
Private profits.
Social costs. 
Capitalism guarantees market failure due to its inefficiency to allocate certain goods and resources, leading to failures such as monopolies and monopolistic competition.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 14, 2021)

dblack said:


> Cartoons, and other simplistic, populist nonsense, have long been a staple of communist propaganda. They're not trying to make logical argument, just an emotional appeal. They employ envy, fear, racism, slurs, paranoia etc.... to incite the rabble. Much like Trump.


----------



## dblack (Nov 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Because capitalists control every government on the planet today.
> Private profits.
> Social costs.


That's not capitalism, dingleberry. That's corporatism - a kissin' cousin to socialism.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Because capitalists control every government on the planet today.
> Private profits.
> Social costs.
> Capitalism guarantees market failure due to its inefficiency to allocate certain goods and resources, leading to failures such as monopolies and monopolistic competition.


Wrong. The USA was the only country to embargo Cuba.

Everything you post is a flat-out lie.  If socialism is so superior, it shouldn't matter what capitalist countries do. 200 years ago, England and America were the only two capitalist countries in the world.  Why didn't all the other countries crush them economically?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 14, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Everyone knows you're an idiot. Starting with you.


Everyone knows your opinion is worth less than Trump's.




Speculators Were Hung in the 17th Century. Ah, 'The Good Old Days'


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 14, 2021)

dblack said:


> That's not capitalism, dingleberry. That's corporatism - a kissin' cousin to socialism.


Crony capitalism or flat-out socialism


----------



## dblack (Nov 14, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Crony capitalism or flat-out socialism


Crony capitalism is the core of corporatism. see: Corporatism - Wikipedia

It's about a government that distributes power to various interest groups in society - often large corporations or business interest, but also to various other factions. It's the opposite of a free market.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 14, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Where? Post it. Idiot.


How many more times, Bitch?


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How many more times, Bitch?


I never saw it.  

Post a link.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 14, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> View attachment 560871


You know less about history than you do about economics.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 14, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> One man, one vote, one time.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> You know less about history than you do about economics.


Of what relevance is that to this thread?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 14, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> nskilled workers (cough...you...cough) are not the economy.


*Speculators destroy the economy:*

Overthrow the Speculators

"Speculators at megabanks or investment firms such as Goldman Sachs are not, in a strict sense, capitalists. 

"They do not make money from the means of production. 

"Rather, they ignore or rewrite the law — ostensibly put in place to protect the vulnerable from the powerful — to steal from everyone, including their shareholders. 

*"They are parasites.* 

"They feed off the carcass of industrial capitalism. 

"They produce nothing. 

"They make nothing. 

"They just manipulate money. 

"Speculation in the 17th century was a crime. 

*"Speculators were hanged."*


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Speculators destroy the economy:*
> 
> Overthrow the Speculators
> 
> ...


We've heard all your commie talking points 10,000 times already.


----------



## airplanemechanic (Nov 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> We already know how conservatives hate democracy
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And why liberals love it. Popular vote would set the president every time. A few big cities would overrule the will of the majority of our nation. 

Thank god we are not a democracy.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 14, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Progs are the only ones whoever called anyone a "useless eater."


Your people coined the phrase




Bet you're proud.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Your people coined the phrase
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Who are "my people?"  It looks like you are calling me a NAZI.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 14, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> It's normal for unemployment to decrease after a recession. However, normally it goes back to the prerecession rate within a couple years


*What "recession" are you confabulating?*

Putting People Back to Work [ushistory.org]

"Unlike Herbert Hoover, who refused to offer direct assistance to individuals, Franklin Roosevelt knew that the nation's unemployed could last only so long. 

"Like his banking legislation, aid would be immediate. 

"Roosevelt adopted a strategy known as 'priming the pump.' 

"To start a dry pump, a farmer often has to pour a little into the pump to generate a heavy flow. Likewise, Roosevelt believed the national government could jump start a dry economy by pouring in a little federal money."


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 14, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> The New Yorker is a left-wing propaganda rag. It's about as left as you can get.


*Ad hominem arguments make you appear ignorant, lazy, and stupid.*

Is Capitalism a Threat to Democracy?

"Today, as in the nineteen-thirties, strongmen are ascendant worldwide, purging civil servants, subverting the judiciary, and bullying the press. 

"In a sweeping, angry new book, 'Can Democracy Survive Global Capitalism?' (Norton), the journalist, editor, and Brandeis professor Robert Kuttner champions Polanyi as a neglected prophet. 

*"Like Polanyi, he believes that free markets can be crueller than citizens will tolerate, inflicting a distress that he thinks is making us newly vulnerable to the fascist solution.*"


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 14, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Nope.
> Foreign supplies are so much larger than ours that we have very little influence on international oil or gas prices.



You're full of shit.
US oil production is more than 11 million barrels a day.
World production is about 99 million barrels a day

*If we stopped domestic production entirely, the prices would not change significantly.*

It's good to know that your ignorance is both wide and deep.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 14, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Fuel Efficiency: Modes of Transportation Ranked By MPG
> 
> 
> Building on a previous post on the energy efficiency of various foods, I decided to create a list of transportation modes by fuel efficiency.  In order to compare vehicles with different passenger …
> ...



*Compare that with a car at only 35.7, and we get a factor of only 6.
So then the 100 claim most likely then was wrong.*

Yeah, 6 isn't even close to 100. DURR


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Why is that?



Because communism sucks.
Because communists are stupid.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


>



How's pharma working out in Cuba?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 14, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> When did the NAZIs ever adopt the free market?


"The Nazis believed in war as the primary engine of human progress, and argued that the purpose of a country's economy should be to enable that country to fight and win wars of expansion.[5] 

"As such, almost immediately after coming to power, they embarked on a vast program of military rearmament, which quickly dwarfed civilian investment.[6] 

"During the 1930s, Nazi Germany increased its military spending faster than any other state in peacetime,[7] and the military eventually came to represent the majority of the German economy in the 1940s.[8] 

"This was funded mainly through deficit financing before the war, and the Nazis expected to cover their debt by plundering the wealth of conquered nations during and after the war.[9] Such plunder did occur, but its results fell far short of Nazi expectations."

Economy of Nazi Germany - Wikipedia


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *I think our Founders followed the Magna Carta more than Athenian Democracy. At least that's the view of Yanis Varoufakis. That has led to creditor control of government for thousands of years.*
> 
> 
> "In the West, we mistakenly believe that capitalism begets inevitably democracy.
> ...



Just what we need, a Greek commie to lecture American capitalism about debt.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *What "recession" are you confabulating?*
> 
> Putting People Back to Work [ushistory.org]
> 
> ...


Everything Roosevelt did only made the recession last longer.  Like preventing employers from lowering wages.  That keeps unemployment high.  The "priming the pump" theory is Voo Doo.  It has never worked.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "The Nazis believed in war as the primary engine of human progress, and argued that the purpose of a country's economy should be to enable that country to fight and win wars of expansion.[5]
> 
> "As such, almost immediately after coming to power, they embarked on a vast program of military rearmament, which quickly dwarfed civilian investment.[6]
> 
> ...


"military rearmaments" is not the free market.  It's crony capitalism, moron.

The correct answer is "never."


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Ad hominem arguments make you appear ignorant, lazy, and stupid.*
> 
> Is Capitalism a Threat to Democracy?
> 
> ...



Your authority is a leftwing propagandists and a liar.   Nothing is crueler than socialism or communism.

Case closed.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "Today, our worldview has a bias – that stockholders are to be paid as much as possible, while employees are to be paid as little as possible."



Owners get to control their stuff.
Whiners like you get to whine about it.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 14, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> For example, we now know the WMD lies about Iraq were financed mostly by TX oil companies that wanted oil prices to increase by shutting down Iraqi oil for awhile.



Shutting down Iraqi production would increase prices but shutting down US production wouldn't?

LOL!!!

You're funny. 

I thought you were a huge idiot......you're just pretending to be a huge idiot. Good job!


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Prove it.
> Turd.



LOL!


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Where did you study Economics?
> How many books on the subject have you written?
> Are you arrogant or stupid enough to believe anyone will ever confuse your insights with those of Marx?



When you look at the success of marxism, it's right up there with your success.

Except your stupidity hasn't killed tens of millions.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Do you imagine Wall Street would provide a  more equal opportunity to the ownership of property than a properly functioning democracy?*
> 
> democritize money - Google Search
> 
> ...



You didn't have an equal opportunity to own property? 
You didn't have equal access to the banking system?

Why not? What stopped you?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How does shareholder money facilitate production of goods and services? Are shareholders assets or expenses? Why is shareholder income prioritized over employee income? What makes you think unearned income is more productive than earned income?
> Stock Buybacks Are A Parasite On The US Economy
> 
> 
> ...



*How does shareholder money facilitate production of goods and services? *

I buy goods and services with a portion of my stock sales.

You could do the same, if you had ever bought any stock......LOL

_Kelly uses some simple algebra to show that this formula could just as easily be re-written as:

*"Employee income + Retained earnings = Revenue – (Capital income + Cost of materials)*

In other words, the company could just as easily be optimized to maximize employee income. All it takes is a perspective shift._

You should definitely do that.

_"Kelly then talks about the fact that employees don’t even show up on the corporate balance sheet._

Where should they show up on a corporate balance sheet?












						Balance Sheet: Explanation, Components, and Examples
					

A balance sheet is a financial statement that reports a company's assets, liabilities and shareholder equity at a specific point in time.




					www.investopedia.com


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Cuba has a lower Covid mortality rate than this country.
> Venezuela's economy is crippled by illegal US sanctions.
> North Korea was bombed into the stone age trying to remove an American-supplied military dictator.  Why are capitalists afraid to compete on anything resembling a level playing field?



*Cuba has a lower Covid mortality rate than this country.*

Commies never fudge the stats, eh?

*Venezuela's economy is crippled by illegal US sanctions.*

Capitalist countries are to blame when a socialist paradise fails? LOL!

*North Korea was bombed into the stone age trying to remove an American-supplied military dictator.*

And communism kept them in the stone age, nearly 70 years later.
When is that communist paradise gonna happen?

*Why are capitalists afraid to compete on anything resembling a level playing field?*

Like East Germany versus West Germany?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Everyone knows your opinion is worth less than Trump's.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You didn't buy stock or invest any money.....because you were afraid you'd be hung?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How many more times, Bitch?



Once would be nice, twat.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> You know less about history than you do about economics.



Yup. Truman helped stop the commies.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Speculators destroy the economy:*
> 
> Overthrow the Speculators
> 
> ...



*Speculators destroy the economy:*

No speculators in the USSR. They must be doing great, eh comrade?


----------



## Flopper (Nov 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf
> 
> "Capitalism and democracy follow different logics: unequally distributed property rights on the one hand, equal civic and political rights on the other; profit oriented trade within capitalism in contrast to the search for the common good within democracy; debate, compromise and majority decision-making within democratic politics versus hierarchical decision-making by managers and capital owners.
> 
> ...


I assume you are writing about a democratic republic and regulated capitalism since pure democracy or pure capitalism  do not actually exist.  However regulated capitalism and a democratic republic such as we have in the US  work fairly well together.   What we mean by regulated capitalism is government regulations on capitalism which allows both socialism and democracy to exist.    All the "isms" are idealized models that can only be partial implemented.


----------



## BackAgain (Nov 14, 2021)

TNHarley said:


> Fuck a Democracy.
> Fuck our corporatocracy.
> What this country needs is capitalism and to abide by the Constitution.


Although I may not have said it quite that way, I grok your meaning. And I agree.  

it would be wonderful if we could nationally disabuse ourselves of the false belief that we are or should be a “democracy.”

I don’t necessarily know what you mean by “corporatocracy,” although I suppose I grasp it in a rough way.  In any case, we never agreed to be ruled or managed by any corporations or combination of such elites.  

We used to be a more capitalist society: and, to the extent we’ve strayed from that in favor of creeping Marxism, we could use a healthy injection of capitalism again.  

And without qualification, we could help ourselves and the world in huge ways if we would commit ourselves to returning to our roots as a Constitutional Republic — and proceed accordingly.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 15, 2021)

Flopper said:


> However regulated capitalism and a democratic republic such as we have in the US work fairly well together


*They work well for the richest 1% to 10% of society as the last forty years of neoliberalism have proven in the US.*





From colonialism to neoliberalism | Health Poverty Action.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 15, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> The only ones who lost money on "liar loans" were the lenders who issued them, you fucking moron.


The "lies" in "liars loans" came from the lenders, Turd.
It was money seeking people (victims), not the inverse.

BILL BLACK Pt 2/9 - Best Way to Rob a Bank is to Own One


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The "lies" in "liars loans" came from the lenders,



Ummmm....the borrowers lied about their income. Idiot.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The "lies" in "liars loans" came from the lenders, Turd.
> It was money seeking people (victims), not the inverse.
> 
> BILL BLACK Pt 2/9 - Best Way to Rob a Bank is to Own One


The lenders are the victims, dumbass.  The banks lost money on those loans.  They only made them so they could meet their government quotas.


----------



## kaz (Nov 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The richest one percent paid an effective tax rate of around 42% when Ike was in the White House, and they pay about half that much today.
> 
> top one percent effective tax rate - Google Search



Whoa, what's that smell?   OMG, it really reeks.  Sniff, sniff.  OMG, it's you!  Wow that stinks, you're just making yourshit up again.  OMG it really smells.

The top 1% earn about 20% of the income and they pay almost 50% of the taxes.  But hey, you have more data you just made up ...


----------



## kaz (Nov 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> You're too fucking MAGA to realize why millions of Americans no longer earn enough to pay taxes at the rates they once did. Why don't you take a few Econ courses at Trump U?
> 
> Bitch.



And now you make up that Americans are poor!  Sure we are, speed racer.  How stupid are you?  Seriously, how stupid?

LOL, Americans are poor. OMG you're lost in stupid ...


----------



## kaz (Nov 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> My side never supported Jim Crow.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And George the mega racist makes up more shit again.   Racists always do


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 15, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> In other words, the government is at fault. You admit that, but you want government to take over the banks.


Government acting in the interest$ of corrupt oligarch$ bailed-out the perpetrators of the Great Recession. Anyone paying attention to the repeated crises of capitalism since the 1980s realizes where the problem lies. The rich are the problem. When they control government, the rich are STILL the problem.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 15, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> When has government existed without war and debt?
> 
> War is 10,000 years old, yet you blame it on capitalism?
> 
> You're a special kind of stupid.


And you're a special kind of chicken-shit.
Here's my question again.
See if you can find a new way to cluck-out of answering:

When have private fortunes existed without war and debt?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 15, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> War is 10,000 years old, yet you blame it on capitalism?


I never said that.
I said capitalism has never existed without war, debt, and imperialism.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Government acting in the interest$ of corrupt oligarch$ bailed-out the perpetrators of the Great Recession. Anyone paying attention to the repeated crises of capitalism since the 1980s realizes where the problem lies. The rich are the problem. When they control government, the rich are STILL the problem.


Government is the perpetrator of the so-called "Great Recession."


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> I never said that.
> I said capitalism has never existed without war, debt, and imperialism.


You have said it countless times, douchebag.  Socialism has never existed without capitalism to suck off of, or mass starvation.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> And you're a special kind of chicken-shit.
> Here's my question again.
> See if you can find a new way to cluck-out of answering:
> 
> When have private fortunes existed without war and debt?



Since the inception of capitalism.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 15, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> That's a flat-out lie, of course. Trump is 100 times cleaner than any Democrat politician we've had in the last 100 years.


*Got any evidence to support that stupidity?*

Ten Reasons Trump is the Most Corrupt President in U.S. History | Republic Report

"This website focuses on corruption of American politics and policy, so we’ve been busy for four years. Donald Trump, with a few months left in his presidential term, is the most corrupt president in U.S. history — *meaning he has, more than any predecessor, used his powerful job to advance his own financial, political, and personal interests, and those of his cronies and patrons.* 

"Here are 10 of the biggest reasons why Trump deserves this terrible distinction..."


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Got any evidence to support that stupidity?*
> 
> Ten Reasons Trump is the Most Corrupt President in U.S. History | Republic Report
> 
> ...


He was investigated for 2 1/2 years, and they found nothing.  They couldn't find a single law he violated.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 15, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> The Times says they were worth?"
> 
> You have no proof that his heirs received any more than $35 million. The times is even less credible than CNN, so why should anyone believe their claims?


You likely haven't even read the Times account of Trump's tax fraud.
So you don't know/care where the paper obtained their evidence.
Trump Sues His Niece Mary And 'The New York Times' Over Tax Return Stories


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> You likely haven't even read the Times account of Trump's tax fraud.
> So you don't know/care where the paper obtained their evidence.
> Trump Sues His Niece Mary And 'The New York Times' Over Tax Return Stories


The "account" of Trump's "tax fraud" is a work of fiction.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Got any evidence to support that stupidity?*
> 
> Ten Reasons Trump is the Most Corrupt President in U.S. History | Republic Report
> 
> ...


You didn't post any evidence of corruption, asshole.  You posted a link to propaganda.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 15, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> The bottom line: people have a right to pass on their wealth to whomever they like. Government has no right to the money.


Which proves once again how little equality of opportunity means to rich-bitch dick-licks like you.




https://account.miamiherald.com/paywall/subscriber-only?resume=244689497


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 15, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Marxism already died, why are you still quoting the Marxist economist?


*You're dead wrong, Piggy*.




"No matter how hard the propaganda machine has tried to refute Marx’s analysis, his ideas have stood the test of time

"Every time the alarms sound announcing another economic crisis, sales of Karl Marx’s books skyrocket. Few understood how capitalism works and its consequences for humanity like this 19th-century German thinker.

"No matter how hard the hegemonic propaganda machine has tried to refute his analysis and decree the death of the ideas to which he dedicated his life, Marxism resists the test of time and its validity – not only as a method to understand the world, – but as a tool to transform it, is proven."

Ten Marxist Ideas That Define the 21st Century - MLToday


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Which proves once again how little equality of opportunity means to rich-bitch dick-licks like you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Trump provides opportunity, moron.  He provides a lot more of it than the government, and he does it out of his own pocket.


georgephillip said:


> *You're dead wrong, Piggy*.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


ROFL!  You have to be kidding.  I can disprove Marx's labor theory of value in 1 minute.


georgephillip said:


> "Every time the alarms sound announcing another economic crisis, sales of Karl Marx’s books skyrocket. Few understood how capitalism works and its consequences for humanity like this 19th-century German thinker.



Hmm, that's just plain wrong.  Ever heard of Adam Smith?



georgephillip said:


> "No matter how hard the hegemonic propaganda machine has tried to refute his analysis and decree the death of the ideas to which he dedicated his life, Marxism resists the test of time and its validity – not only as a method to understand the world, – but as a tool to transform it, is proven."
> 
> Ten Marxist Ideas That Define the 21st Century - MLToday



Totally wrong.


----------



## otto105 (Nov 15, 2021)

Rambunctious said:


> Today the USA is neither capitalist or Democratic.....


You however don’t want it to be a Democracy


----------



## otto105 (Nov 15, 2021)

Nostra said:


> The US isn't a Democracy, Dumbass.


Yes, yes it is.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 15, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> _Perhaps you’ve noticed something. There have been massive staffing shortages throughout the US and elsewhere. Workers are walking out or just not showing up._
> 
> How dire can their situation be if millions are sitting out the work force?


Dire enough millions of productive workers are willing to sacrifice a weekly slave-wage stipend to protest the control useless eaters like you have over this economy. What sacrifice have you made for the greater good of your society?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 15, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Yup. You can move the terms around, doesn't change the math.


*It prioritizes productive workers over parasitic shareholders*.

The Divine Right of Capital by Marjorie Kelly

_*"Capital Income + Retained earnings = Revenue – (Employee income + Cost of materials)*_

"Kelly uses some simple algebra to show that this formula could just as easily be re-written as:

_*Employee income + Retained earnings = Revenue – (Capital income + Cost of materials)"

Does the algebra confuse you?*_


----------



## Rambunctious (Nov 15, 2021)

otto105 said:


> You however don’t want it to be a Democracy


It never has been a democracy we are a representative republic...look it up....


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 15, 2021)

otto105 said:


> You however don’t want it to be a Democracy


Democracy isn't a person, shit for brains.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Dire enough millions of productive workers are willing to sacrifice a weekly slave-wage stipend to protest the control useless eaters like you have over this economy. What sacrifice have you made for the greater good of your society?


I wouldn't sacrifice for the greater good unless someone held a gun on me.  In fact, the government holds a gun on me every time I pay taxes.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *You're dead wrong, Piggy*.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Marxism isn't dead?
Where are they following it? Link?

*this 19th-century German thinker.*

German failure.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Dire enough millions of productive workers are willing to sacrifice a weekly slave-wage stipend to protest the control useless eaters like you have over this economy.



Sitting out of the work force to protest Bezos and Musk? 

How selfless.


----------



## dblack (Nov 15, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Sitting out of the work force to protest Bezos and Musk?
> 
> How selfless.


No, they're looking out for themselves, and I applaud their efforts. At least they're not whining to the government to do something about it. That's the way things are supposed to work. If they're not getting paid enough, they should refuse to work. Maybe they'll figure out a way to make a living besides working for an "employer". It's a real thing.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *It prioritizes productive workers over parasitic shareholders*.
> 
> The Divine Right of Capital by Marjorie Kelly
> 
> ...



*It prioritizes productive workers over parasitic shareholders*.

No it doesn't. It just moves the same terms around, it doesn't change them. Not even a little.

*"Kelly uses some simple algebra to show that this formula could just as easily be re-written as:*

She should start her own company and move the terms around all she likes.

_*Does the algebra confuse you?*_

Nope. Does moving capital income and employee income to the other side of the formula
change the size of either number?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 15, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Lots of capitalist competition in the USSR, eh?
> How many blue jeans makers?
> Or private farms? Auto makers?


How many capitalist invasions of Russia in the 20th Century?
Why did Russian life expectancy plunge when capitalism took root in the 1990s?
What percentage of Russians currently live behind bars, and how does that number compare to the US?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How many capitalist invasions of Russia in the 20th Century?
> Why did Russian life expectancy plunge when capitalism took root in the 1990s?
> What percentage of Russians currently live behind bars, and how does that number compare to the US?



*How many capitalist invasions of Russia in the 20th Century?*

Aww.....poor Russia. They had to enslave their own people because.....capitalist invasions.

*Why did Russian life expectancy plunge when capitalism took root in the 1990s?*

Because the commie scum were allowed to steal more instead of being lined up and shot.

*What percentage of Russians currently live behind bars, *

Under communism, basically all of them.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How many capitalist invasions of Russia in the 20th Century?
> Why did Russian life expectancy plunge when capitalism took root in the 1990s?
> What percentage of Russians currently live behind bars, and how does that number compare to the US?


How many capitalist countries did the USSR invade?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 15, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> They try, but they can't succeed unless the government outlaws competition.
> Like in the USSR, East Germany and Venezuela


You prefer business that's too big to govern?





*"Competition Breeds Monopolization"

Capitalism and Monopolies: Is Regulation the Answer?*


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> You prefer business that's too big to govern?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Monopolies are bad. Commies are worse.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 15, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Monopolies are bad. Commies are worse.


Government is the biggest monopoly.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 15, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> What royal family was Sam Walton from?


*Met Life.
Why would a pig-fuck like you care?*

Sam Walton - Wikipedia

"Samuel Moore Walton was born to Thomas Gibson Walton and Nancy Lee, in Kingfisher, Oklahoma. 

"He lived there with his parents on their farm until 1923. 

"However, farming did not provide enough money to raise a family, and Thomas Walton went into farm mortgaging. 

*"He worked for his brother's Walton Mortgage Company, which was an agent for Metropolitan Life Insurance,[4][5] where he foreclosed on farms during the Great Depression."




*


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Met Life.
> Why would a pig-fuck like you care?*
> 
> Sam Walton - Wikipedia
> ...


So his father was an employee of an insurance company?

You are so desperate.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Met Life.
> Why would a pig-fuck like you care?*
> 
> Sam Walton - Wikipedia
> ...



Why would a moron like you have a clue?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 15, 2021)

Roudy said:


> Heil Marx!


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 15, 2021)

struth said:


> haha yeah it was the USthat keep NK from being successful
> 
> if socialism was so great, a weak capitalist country wouldn’t stop it…and in 70 years that’s more the. enough time to rebuild


Why are you calling the "greatest purveyor of violence on the planet" a "weak capitalist country"? The US killed one of every three Koreans living north of the 38th parallel between 1950-55. 

Since that time the US has inflicted economic sanctions and military provocations on NK in order to ensure it never regains its pre-Korean War economic dominance. 

All of this happened because the US refused to allow free elections on that peninsula in 1945:




*"Lyuh Woon-hyung* or *Yo Un-hyung*[c] (May 25, 1886 – July 19, 1947) was a Korean politician who argued that Korean independence was essential to world peace, and a reunification activist who struggled for the independent reunification of Korea following its national division in 1945.

"His pen-name was *Mongyang* (몽양; 夢陽), the Hanja for 'dream' and 'the sun.'

"*He is rare among politicians in modern Korean history in that he is revered in both South and North Korea."

Lyuh Woon-hyung - Wikipedia*


----------



## struth (Nov 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Why are you calling the "greatest purveyor of violence on the planet" a "weak capitalist country"? The US killed one of every three Koreans living north of the 38th parallel between 1950-55.
> 
> Since that time the US has inflicted economic sanctions and military provocations on NK in order to ensure it never regains its pre-Korean War economic dominance.
> 
> ...


yeah it’s the Is fault not  Kim Sung


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 15, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> It's socialism that has starved people do death. The famine in Ukraine, Ethiopia, Great leap forward, Biafra, and Biafra are all great examples. Name one capitalist country where people starved to death.







_"'I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion. The famine was their own fault for breeding like rabbits.'                                                                                                -Winston Churchill'"_

"The British had a ruthless economic agenda when it came to operating in India and that did not include empathy for native citizens. 

"Under the British Raj, India suffered countless famines. 

"But the worst hit was Bengal. 

"The first of these was in 1770, followed by severe ones in 1783, 1866, 1873, 1892, 1897 and lastly 1943-44."

The Bengal Famine: How the British engineered the worst genocide in human history for profit


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Why are you calling the "greatest purveyor of violence on the planet" a "weak capitalist country"? The US killed one of every three Koreans living north of the 38th parallel between 1950-55.
> 
> Since that time the US has inflicted economic sanctions and military provocations on NK in order to ensure it never regains its pre-Korean War economic dominance.
> 
> ...


North Korea invaded South Korea, dumbass.  Here's a good solution to the problem:  don't invade your neighbors.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 15, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> NOrth Korea brought that on itself. All it had to do to prevent it is not invade South Korea


"6. In August 1945 defeated Japanese forces formally turned over authority in Korea to the broad-based Committee for the Preparation of Korean Independence, led by Lyuh Woon-hyung, which in September proclaimed the Korean People’s Republic (KPR). When U.S. forces under Gen. Reed Hodge arrived in Inchon to accept the Japanese surrender, they

*. ordered all Japanese officials to remain in their posts, refused to recognize Lyuh as national leader, and soon banned all public reference to the KPR*

b. recognized Lyuh as the legitimate head of state

c. negotiated with Lyuh to facilitate swift attainment of independence of a united Korea

DECEMBER 31, 2002
A Pop Quiz on Korea​BY GARY LEUPP


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> _"'I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion. The famine was their own fault for breeding like rabbits.'                                                                                                -Winston Churchill'"_
> 
> "The British had a ruthless economic agenda when it came to operating in India and that did not include empathy for native citizens.
> 
> ...



I will have to research that.


----------



## struth (Nov 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "6. In August 1945 defeated Japanese forces formally turned over authority in Korea to the broad-based Committee for the Preparation of Korean Independence, led by Lyuh Woon-hyung, which in September proclaimed the Korean People’s Republic (KPR). When U.S. forces under Gen. Reed Hodge arrived in Inchon to accept the Japanese surrender, they
> 
> *. ordered all Japanese officials to remain in their posts, refused to recognize Lyuh as national leader, and soon banned all public reference to the KPR*
> 
> ...


yes the Japanese lost the war, and their empire…thank goodness those fascist lost


----------



## Flopper (Nov 15, 2021)

BackAgain said:


> Although I may not have said it quite that way, I grok your meaning. And I agree.
> 
> it would be wonderful if we could nationally disabuse ourselves of the false belief that we are or should be a “democracy.”
> 
> ...


The United States is a good example a constitutional republic that is based on democratic principals. The Founders created the blueprints for the United States government in an effort to achieve a delicate balance between liberty and order, and between liberty and equality.  However what makes the nation both a republic and democracy is addition of the Bill of Rights to the constitution.

Another good example of a Constitutional Republic is the Peoples Republican of China. However, this Constitutional Republic  purposefully avoids democratic principals.  It address only political rights, the structure of goverment and affirmation of  control by the Communist Party.  The constitution gives the people the right to vote, for communist, the right to freedom of speech and assembly, providing it is not used to attack the goverment.  It is excellent example of a anti-democratic Constitutional Republic.


----------



## BackAgain (Nov 15, 2021)

Flopper said:


> The United States is a good example a constitutional republic that is based on democratic principals. The Founders created the blueprints for the United States government in an effort to achieve a delicate balance between liberty and order, and between liberty and equality.  However what makes the nation both a republic and democracy is addition of Bill of Rights to the constitution.
> 
> Another good example of a Constitutional Republic is the Peoples Republican of China. However, this Constitutional Republic  purposefully avoids democratic principals.  It address only political rights, the structure of goverment and affirmation of  control by the Communist Party.  The constitution gives them the right to vote, for communist, the right freedom of speech, providing it is not used to attack the goverment.  It is excellent example of a anti-democratic Constitutional Republic.


I don’t see how the Peoples’ “Republic [sic]” of China qualifies as a Republic.  Them giving themselves that name doesn’t make it so.


----------



## Flopper (Nov 15, 2021)

BackAgain said:


> I don’t see how the Peoples’ “Republic [sic]” of China qualifies as a Republic.  Them giving themselves that name doesn’t make it so.


A Republic is form of government in which a state is ruled by representatives of the citizens.  In China, the people vote on representatives which technically makes them a republic.  The constitution guarantees that the National Assembly will be controlled by members of the Communalist Party.  However, delegates who not communist may be members of local non-communist parties.   So yes, they are a republic but lack democratic principals of legal equality and political freedom.


----------



## BackAgain (Nov 15, 2021)

Flopper said:


> A Republic is form of government in which a state is ruled by representatives of the citizens.  In China, the people vote on representatives which technically makes them a republic.  The constitution guarantees that the National Assembly will be controlled by members of the Communalist Party.  However, delegates who not communist may be members of local non-communist parties.   So yes, they are a republic but lack democratic principals of legal equality and political freedom.


Oh, come now. Chinese citizens vote on their reps.


----------



## Roudy (Nov 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


>


Take a selfie in front of the mirror all that you want.


Marxism​Main article: Marxism



_Capital: Critique of Political Economy_, by Karl Marx, is a critical analysis of political economy, meant to reveal the economic laws of the capitalist mode of production.
Karl Marx saw capitalism as a historical stage, once progressive but which would eventually stagnate due to internal contradictions and would eventually be followed by socialism. Marx claimed that capitalism was nothing more than a necessary stepping stone for the progression of man, which would then face a political revolution before embracing the classless society.Marxists define capital as "a social, economic relation" between people (rather than between people and things). In this sense they seek to abolish capital. They believe that private ownership of the means of production enriches capitalists (owners of capital) at the expense of workers ("the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer"). In brief, they argue that the owners of the means of production do not work and therefore exploit the workerforce. In Karl Marx's view, the capitalists would eventually accumulate more and more capital, impoverishing the working class, and creating the social conditions for a revolution that would overthrow the institutions of capitalism. Private ownership over the means of production and distribution is seen as a dependency of non-owning classes on the ruling class, and ultimately a source of restriction of human freedom.


----------



## Flopper (Nov 15, 2021)

BackAgain said:


> Oh, come now. Chinese citizens vote on their reps.


All citizens of the People’s Republic of China who have reached the age of 18 have the right to vote and stand for election, regardless of ethnic background, race, sex, occupation, religious belief, education level, property status or length of residence.   The caveat is most candidates will be members of the Communist Party although there are candidates from other local or reginal parties and some are elected.  However, the constitution insures the Communist Party will always control the  National People's Congress.

Satisfaction with China’s government has grown stronger and stronger over the years.  40 years ago, most Chinese could hardly afford a a bicycle and all travel was restricted.  Today they are driving cars, 297 million of them all over the country.  There are more cars on the road in China than any other country including the US. China is the number one car market in the world.  Just as economic success has come to China so has personal freedoms certainly not what we enjoy as Americans but far greater than they were 40 years ago.  The Chinese can change jobs, move across country and afforded a great deal personal freedom with little inference from the government.  The one thing you can not do in China is openly attack the government.  Had the attack on the Capitol occurred in China, those that survived the attack would be serving long prison terms today.  Surprisingly, China's crime rates for violate crime is almost equal to the US inspite of their tough  treatment of criminals.

Capitalism is not only tolerated in China but encouraged.  There are less government restriction on businesses in China than in the US.  In fact the government is often criticize for the lack safety restrictions, violation of workman compensation regulations, and general treatment of employees.  As long as businesses keeps their noise out government business, the government will do likewise for them.


----------



## sakinago (Nov 16, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Finance capitalism is transforming US democracy into an oligarchy, something neither Trump nor Biden has any problem with.


Can’t say I disagree. And after this fucking abomination from Bloomberg Finance...




__





						Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
					





					www.bloomberg.com
				




...I feel like I’m on board with “eat the rich” mentality. Although, I’d label it as more “eat the elite”.  The inflation, gas prices, supply chain issues, gutting of small business, all of it is being done on purpose. Build back better and the great reset is the elites trying to institute modern day sharecropping on a global scale.

Fuck these guys. We do not live in a capitalist society. We do not live in a republic. Unelected administrators in the alphabet agencies of the executive branch are making all the laws. Not our legislature, who are more than happy to go along with it and pretend like their hands are tied. Big business lobbies them to help them destroy their competitors. Then the government outsources their tyranny to these “private entities” for things like censorship in big tech, for covidstan, and again our legislators, both state and federal, want to pretend like their hands are tied. Then the likes of Psaki, Bill Gates, and Bloomberg have the fucking gall to tell us we “consume too much”, that were “not locked down enough”, and that “we’re the ones who need to sacrifice and be taxed more in the name of global warming”, while they Jetset all over the globe, exempt themselves from their own rules, and shield themselves the destruction they wrought on the rest of us. Fuck them. They are all banding together to forever pull up the ladder on us and force us to sell our souls to the company store. Nope, nope, noppity, nope.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 16, 2021)

Only Capital must circulate under true Capitalism.  That is why we resort to the socialism of Government.


----------



## BackAgain (Nov 16, 2021)

Flopper said:


> All citizens of the People’s Republic of China who have reached the age of 18 have the right to vote and stand for election, regardless of ethnic background, race, sex, occupation, religious belief, education level, property status or length of residence.   The caveat is most candidates will be members of the Communist Party although there are candidates from other local or reginal parties and some are elected.  However, the constitution insures the Communist Party will always control the  National People's Congress.
> 
> Satisfaction with China’s government has grown stronger and stronger over the years.  40 years ago, most Chinese could hardly afford a a bicycle and all travel was restricted.  Today they are driving cars, 297 million of them all over the country.  There are more cars on the road in China than any other country including the US. China is the number one car market in the world.  Just as economic success has come to China so has personal freedoms certainly not what we enjoy as Americans but far greater than they were 40 years ago.  The Chinese can change jobs, move across country and afforded a great deal personal freedom with little inference from the government.  The one thing you can not do in China is openly attack the government.  Had the attack on the Capitol occurred in China, those that survived the attack would be serving long prison terms today.  Surprisingly, China's crime rates for violate crime is almost equal to the US inspite of their tough  treatment of criminals.
> 
> Capitalism is not only tolerated in China but encouraged.  There are less government restriction on businesses in China than in the US.  In fact the government is often criticize for the lack safety restrictions, violation of workman compensation regulations, and general treatment of employees.  As long as businesses keeps their noise out government business, the government will do likewise for them.


I suppose there is a sense in which you may be right. Here in the USA a person has real choices. Although she or he may not get any wins, a voter can even vote for a registered communist party candidate.

I’m not an expert on Chinese ballots. But I understand that the “choices” are all of ne Party.  A person wishing to cast a vote for a Libertarian for instance is not permitted any choice of a candidate from any such Party.


----------



## otto105 (Nov 16, 2021)

Rambunctious said:


> It never has been a democracy we are a representative republic...look it up....


I did and shows that your wrong.

The United States is a representative democracy. This means that our government is elected by citizens. ... These officials represent the citizens' ideas and concerns in government. Voting is one way to participate in our democracy.


You want a fascist theocracy.


----------



## BackAgain (Nov 16, 2021)

otto105 said:


> I did and shows that your wrong.
> 
> The United States is a representative democracy. This means that our government is elected by citizens. ... These officials represent the citizens' ideas and concerns in government. Voting is one way to participate in our democracy.
> 
> ...


We have some elements of a democratic society. We don’t vote directly (in most matters) on our laws. We vote for representatives who then vote directly on the laws.  If we don’t like the results, we can vote for the other candidate.

That said, we are not a small d democracy at all.  We are a Constitutional Republic.  Our national charter does not permit even our representatives to pass some laws — at all. It is a Constitution which explicitly LIMITS the things that can be made law.  

Indeed, in part, this Republic was founded upon a mistrust of democracy. At least it feared the prospect of a tyranny of the majority.  So no. We are not a democracy.  We accept some precepts of democracy but we also place limits on how far it may go.  

I like democracy to the extent that We, the People, are our own sovereigns and should accordingly have a say in our own societal laws and rules. That does NOT, however, make us a democracy.  I for one don’t want to live in a democracy without constraining it FROM trampling my rights and liberties — or yours.

I consider our Founders and Framers to be almost divinely inspired.  Their work was brilliant.


----------



## otto105 (Nov 16, 2021)

BackAgain said:


> We have some elements of a democratic society. We don’t vote directly (in most matters) on our laws. We vote for representatives who then vote directly on the laws.  If we don’t like the results, we can vote for the other candidate.
> 
> That said, we are not a small d democracy at all.  We are a Constitutional Republic.  Our national charter does not permit even our representatives to pass some laws — at all. It is a Constitution which explicitly LIMITS the things that can be made law.
> 
> ...


How many amendments to that brilliant work do we have now?

And did that brilliant work come after the Articles of Confederation?


You want a fascist theocracy based on a large amount of people not voting (by out right limits or government overturning the vote) for the representative Democracy.


----------



## tahuyaman (Nov 16, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *Reagan's tax cuts facilitated low interest rates *
> 
> Lower taxes, lower inflation, lower interest rates. THE HUMANITY!!!!!!
> 
> ...


The biggest problem we face today is stupidity.


----------



## BackAgain (Nov 16, 2021)

otto105 said:


> How many amendments to that brilliant work do we have now?
> 
> And did that brilliant work come after the Articles of Confederation?
> 
> ...


The ability to Amend the document was carefully made Part of the Constitution. That too was brilliant.

Much, most or all of the work to create the Constitution came while we were still under the Articles of Confederation.  Obviously, this doesn’t include Amendments.  I’m not sure I see why or how that question matters.

I have said nothing about anything to suggest that I would ever want a theocracy much less a fascist theocracy. There is nothing which I’ve ever said that would even fairly lead to such a conclusion.

So, it is clear that you are just a loon.


----------



## otto105 (Nov 16, 2021)

BackAgain said:


> The ability to Amend the document was carefully made Part of the Constitution. That too was brilliant.
> 
> Much, most or all of the work to create the Constitution came while we were still under the Articles of Confederation.  Obviously, this doesn’t include Amendments.  I’m not sure I see why or how that question matters.
> 
> ...


Brilliant work that included the following: Not allowing many in society to vote, for a direct election of their elected officials or labeling some only 2/3 human. Also, they our founding fathers didn't declare the document dead and allowed following generations the ability to improve on it.

Which they did.


----------



## Rambunctious (Nov 16, 2021)

otto105 said:


> I did and shows that your wrong.
> 
> The United States is a representative democracy. This means that our government is elected by citizens. ... These officials represent the citizens' ideas and concerns in government. Voting is one way to participate in our democracy.
> 
> ...


Wrong its a representative republic which means we vote for men and women to represent us....a pure democracy goes like this....5 people in a room...3 men 2 women...the men vote to rape the women and the women vote no...in a democracy the women get raped....see the difference?....


----------



## otto105 (Nov 16, 2021)

Rambunctious said:


> Wrong its a representative republic which means we vote for men and women to represent us....a pure democracy goes like this....5 people in a room...3 men 2 women...the men vote to rape the women and the women vote no...in a democracy the women get raped....see the difference?....


The previous post was too stupid to even comment on because in a "pure democracy" committing a crime can be voted on.

Now can you explain what I posted that we are which is a representative Democracy.


----------



## Rambunctious (Nov 16, 2021)

otto105 said:


> The previous post was too stupid to even comment on because in a "pure democracy" committing a crime can be voted on.
> 
> Now can you explain what I posted that we are which is a representative Democracy.


That was an example idiot you missed the whole point....maybe this will correct your stupid civics teachers....

While often categorized as a democracy, the United States is more accurately defined as a constitutional federal republic. What does this mean? “Constitutional” refers to the fact that government in the United States is based on a Constitution which is the supreme law of the United States. The Constitution not only provides the framework for how the federal and state governments are structured, but also places significant limits on their powers. “Federal” means that there is both a national government and governments of the 50 states. A “republic” is a form of government in which the people hold power, but elect representatives to exercise that power.


----------



## otto105 (Nov 16, 2021)

Rambunctious said:


> That was an example idiot you missed the whole point....maybe this will correct your stupid civics teachers....
> 
> While often categorized as a democracy, the United States is more accurately defined as a constitutional federal republic. What does this mean? “Constitutional” refers to the fact that government in the United States is based on a Constitution which is the supreme law of the United States. The Constitution not only provides the framework for how the federal and state governments are structured, but also places significant limits on their powers. “Federal” means that there is both a national government and governments of the 50 states. A “republic” is a form of government in which the people hold power, but elect representatives to exercise that power.


So, we don't vote on our elected representatives or whether the constitution needs to be changed?

Your political view is your opinion of limits to powers.


----------



## BackAgain (Nov 16, 2021)

otto105 said:


> Brilliant work that included the following: Not allowing many in society to vote, for a direct election of their elected officials or labeling some only 2/3 human. Also, they our founding fathers didn't declare the document dead and allowed following generations the ability to improve on it.
> 
> Which they did.


In that day it was deemed “obvious” that women couldn’t vote. It is true that blacks were counted for purposes of the census as I believe it was 4/5ths of a man. But that was solely a compromise to allow the creation of a Constitution in the diary place. Newsflash:  in those days it wasn’t considered especially unusual to deem blacks inferior. Obviously nowadays we find that abhorrent. Yet imposing our fairly enlightened standards on an earlier age is kind of a silly exercise.  

your final “point” is incoherent. Yes. The Framers did not declare their own work dead. Brilliant point. 🤪


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 16, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> We bombed Japan into the stone age almost 80 years ago. Why is North Korea still in the stone age?


Total U.S. assistance to Japan for 1946-1952 was roughly $15.2 billion in 2005 dollars, of which 77% was grants and 23% was loans. 

U.S. Occupation Assistance: Iraq, Germany, and Japan Compared

"Most of these funds were provided through GARIOA grants. Japan repaid $490 million of the total postwar assistance. Of the $2.2 billion in total aid, an estimated $655 million, or almost a third, went to categories that would mostly contribute directly to economic recovery (industrial materials, including machinery and raw goods; petroleum and products; and transportation, vehicles, and equipment). Most of the rest went for..."


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 16, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> He's not here, whining on this thread, you are. Silly moron


Why are you here, Useless Bitch?


----------



## BackAgain (Nov 16, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Why are you here ****


It looks like he’s here to try to smack the stupid out of you.  Sadly, it doesn’t appear to be working.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 16, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Total U.S. assistance to Japan for 1946-1952 was roughly $15.2 billion in 2005 dollars, of which 77% was grants and 23% was loans.
> 
> U.S. Occupation Assistance: Iraq, Germany, and Japan Compared
> 
> "Most of these funds were provided through GARIOA grants. Japan repaid $490 million of the total postwar assistance. Of the $2.2 billion in total aid, an estimated $655 million, or almost a third, went to categories that would mostly contribute directly to economic recovery (industrial materials, including machinery and raw goods; petroleum and products; and transportation, vehicles, and equipment). Most of the rest went for..."



*Total U.S. assistance to Japan for 1946-1952 was roughly $15.2 billion in 2005 dollars, of which 77% was grants and 23% was loans.*

Commie countries didn't help North Korea? That's awful!


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 16, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Why are you here, Useless Bitch?



Smacking the shit out of you, silly twat.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 16, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> You can't rely on government, but you want them 100% in control?
> You're a special kind of stupid, aren't you?


Not stupid enough to believe rich people should control government.
It's impossible to trump that level of stupid.
Tired of winning?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 16, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Not stupid enough to believe rich people should control government.
> It's impossible to trump that level of stupid.
> Tired of winning?



*Not stupid enough to believe rich people should control government.*

Who should control it, Bernie and AOC?

*It's impossible to trump that level of stupid.*

But you always do......congrats!!!


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 16, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> what policies did Trump force African countries to adopt?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 16, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> The former does a lot better job and promotes freedom wherever it is observed. The later promotes organized plunder.


How did capitalism promote freedom in Chile in 1973?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 16, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> All government is built on force, dumbass. Government is nothing more than the monopoly on force. How can anyone who supports communism be opposed to the use of force?


*Your ignorance of communism is impressive.
Maybe you should open your eyes?*

"Marx and Engels maintained that a communist society would have no need for the state as it exists in contemporary capitalist society. 

*"The capitalist state mainly exists to enforce hierarchical economic relations, to enforce the exclusive control of property, and to regulate capitalistic economic activities—all of which would be non-applicable to a communist system*.[10][17]

Communist society - Wikipedia

"Engels noted that in a socialist system the primary function of public institutions will shift from being about the creation of laws and the control of people into a technical role as an administrator of technical production processes, with a decrease in the scope of traditional politics as scientific administration overtakes the role of political decision-making.[20] 

*"Communist society is characterized by democratic processes, not merely in the sense of electoral democracy, but in the broader sense of open and collaborative social and workplace environments"*


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 16, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How did capitalism promote freedom in Chile in 1973?



Killing off some commies is always a good thing.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 16, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "Engels noted that in a socialist system the primary function of public institutions will shift from being about the creation of laws and the control of people into a technical role as an administrator of technical production processes



Yeah, those gulags were awesome!!!


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 16, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> YEs, Atlantic City casinos took a huge hit when every other state in the union legalized gambling.


*Junk bonds and other people's money: "The eighth wonder of the world."*

Atlantic City: 'Trump turned this place into a ghost town'

"When Donald Trump opened the towering Trump Taj Mahal Casino in Atlantic City in March 1990, *he declared it 'the eighth wonder of the world'* and joined in the celebrations at a launch ceremony filled with portly actors dressed as genies brandishing tacky golden lamps. 

"Even though it was purchased with almost *$700m worth of junk bonds* – which meant the Taj had to come up with *$94m a year just to pay off its debts, and $1m a day to be profitable* – Trump insisted the casino would make Atlantic City great again, returning the area to its prohibition-era glory days."

*See what happens when you run out of other people's money?*


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 16, 2021)

georgephillip said:


>


How did that make African countries adopt their socialist policies?


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 16, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Your ignorance of communism is impressive.
> Maybe you should open your eyes?*
> 
> "Marx and Engels maintained that a communist society would have no need for the state as it exists in contemporary capitalist society.


So where has this fantasy ever existed?  

Reality:  All government is based on force.  Show us an example of a single government that didn't employ force.



georgephillip said:


> *"The capitalist state mainly exists to enforce hierarchical economic relations, to enforce the exclusive control of property, and to regulate capitalistic economic activities—all of which would be non-applicable to a communist system*.[10][17]
> 
> Communist society - Wikipedia
> 
> ...



Again, you're telling us that communism is a triangle with four sides.  Your fantasy doesn't exist.  It never has, and it never will.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 16, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Junk bonds and other people's money: "The eighth wonder of the world."*
> 
> Atlantic City: 'Trump turned this place into a ghost town'
> 
> ...


You totally ignored what I posted.

Ho0w typical for you.


----------



## Flopper (Nov 16, 2021)

BackAgain said:


> I suppose there is a sense in which you may be right. Here in the USA a person has real choices. Although she or he may not get any wins, a voter can even vote for a registered communist party candidate.
> 
> I’m not an expert on Chinese ballots. But I understand that the “choices” are all of ne Party.  A person wishing to cast a vote for a Libertarian for instance is not permitted any choice of a candidate from any such Party.


You could spend years trying understand elections in China and you would still be scratching your head.   National elections and most regional elections are indirect where local elections are mostly direct.  The National People's Congress, the NPC is composed of about 2800 delegates who are elected by 35 electoral units such as the Congresses of municipalities, Regions, National Liberation Army, Special Administration Regions, etc, etc.   Elections to these congresses are both direct and indirect elections.   Generally local congresses are directly elected by the people.  Getting on the ballot is not uniform.  Basically the candidates are selected by the various parties and major local pollical groups.   Most candidate will be Communists because the Communist Party is the dominate party.   The NPC selects the President of China and lower level congresses select some municipal and regional leaders. Others are by direct vote of the people.  Most campaigning in direct elections is done online.


----------



## BackAgain (Nov 16, 2021)

Flopper said:


> You could spend years trying understand elections in China and you would still be scratching your head.   National elections and most regional elections are indirect where local elections are mostly direct.  The National People's Congress, the NPC is composed of about 2800 delegates who are elected by 35 electoral units such as the Congresses of municipalities, regions, the National Liberation Army, Special Administration Regions, etc, etc.   Elections to these congresses are both direct and indirect elections.   Generally local congresses are directly elected by the people.  Getting on the ballot  is not uniform.  Basically the candidates are selected by the various parties and major pollical groups.   Most candidate will be Communists because the Communist Party is the dominate party.  One of the major responsibilities of these congresses are selections of leader.  The NPC selects the President of China and lower level congresses select some municipal and regional leaders. Others are by direct vote of the people.  Most campaigning in direct elections campaign online.


I’ll take your word on it. And I don’t mean that in a dismissive way. I am simply not familiar enough with the Peoples Republic of China to discuss it meaningfully.  But I do doubt that the citizens get a true choice in whom they may vote for. And no matter, even then, because in the end, the Communist Party will “win.”


----------



## Flopper (Nov 16, 2021)

Rambunctious said:


> Wrong its a representative republic which means we vote for men and women to represent us....a pure democracy goes like this....5 people in a room...3 men 2 women...the men vote to rape the women and the women vote no...in a democracy the women get raped....see the difference?....


A republic by definition is government by representatives of the people.  The difference in our republic and the Republic of China is that our republic is based democratic principals of political equality, individual rights,  rule of law, etc..


----------



## Flopper (Nov 16, 2021)

BackAgain said:


> I’ll take your word on it. And I don’t mean that in a dismissive way. I am simply not familiar enough with the Peoples Republic of China to discuss it meaningfully.  But I do doubt that the citizens get a true choice in whom they may vote for. And no matter, even then, because in the end, the Communist Party will “win.”


I agree.  I think what people don't understand about China is the tremendous change that has taken place in personal freedoms.   However, pollical freedoms are still tightly controlled by the goverment.    You can criticize local government and oppose local leaders but not the national government.


----------



## Rambunctious (Nov 16, 2021)

Flopper said:


> A republic by definition is government by representatives of the people.  The difference in our republic and the Republic of China is that our republic is based democratic principals of political equality, individual rights,  rule of law, etc..


I don't disagree....but being based on democratic principles does not mean we are a pure democratic nation...there is no such thing....it doesn't exist....


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 16, 2021)

Flopper said:


> You could spend years trying understand elections in China and you would still be scratching your head.   National elections and most regional elections are indirect where local elections are mostly direct.  The National People's Congress, the NPC is composed of about 2800 delegates who are elected by 35 electoral units such as the Congresses of municipalities, Regions, National Liberation Army, Special Administration Regions, etc, etc.   Elections to these congresses are both direct and indirect elections.   Generally local congresses are directly elected by the people.  Getting on the ballot is not uniform.  Basically the candidates are selected by the various parties and major local pollical groups.   Most candidate will be Communists because the Communist Party is the dominate party.   The NPC selects the President of China and lower level congresses select some municipal and regional leaders. Others are by direct vote of the people.  Most campaigning in direct elections is done online.


Chinese elections are meaningless.  the Communist party choose all the candidates.  

Case closed.


----------



## Flopper (Nov 16, 2021)

Rambunctious said:


> I don't disagree....but being based on democratic principles does not mean we are a pure democratic nation...there is no such thing....it doesn't exist....


Democracy, Capitalisms Socialism, and many other such ideologies can not be implemented in the real world.  However, there are principals of these ideologies can be implement on a limited basis for example regulated capitalisms, democratic republics, socio-democratic societies, etc


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 17, 2021)

Flopper said:


> Democracy, Capitalisms Socialism, and many other such ideologies can not be implemented in the real world.  However, there are principals of these ideologies can be implement on a limited basis for example regulated capitalisms, democratic republics, socio-democratic societies, etc


Bullshit.  The closer we get to a free market, the faster the economy grows and the more human welfare improves.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 17, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> Socialism is about power not capital. Capitalism is about capital not power. Thus, Government is socialism.


*Perhaps the solution here is...?*

Socialism - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Democratic socialism[change | change source]​"Democratic socialism is the belief that both the economy and society should be run democratically (as opposed to authoritarianism)—*to meet public needs, not to make profits for a few.* 

"To achieve a more just society, many structures of our government and economy must be radically transformed through greater economic and social democracy *so that ordinary people can participate in the many decisions that affect their lives."*


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 17, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Perhaps the solution here is...?*
> 
> Socialism - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> ...


You know that's propaganda, don't you?

Everything  you post is propaganda - lies, in other words.

Also note that your definition say it's a "belief."  I'm shocked they would admit that.

Also, authoritarianism isn't the only alternative to democracy of socialism.  In fact, socialism is authoritarianism.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 17, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Perhaps the solution here is...?*
> 
> Socialism - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> ...


From my perspective, it may require better use of AI because this seems to be part of the dilemma:

_If liberty and equality are chiefly to be found in democracy, they will be best attained when all persons alike share in government to the utmost._--Aristotle


----------



## dblack (Nov 17, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Democratic socialism is the belief that both the economy and society should be run democratically (as opposed to authoritarianism)—to meet public needs, not to make profits for a few.



This description of their goals is, at least, honest. They want _both society and the economy to be *run* democratically_. That's everything. What they want is totalitarian government (as opposed to libertarian), one where every decision you make, everything you do, is subject to the will of the majority. Moreover, they don't want government to merely _govern_ society; they want it to RUN society.

The sad thing is, I suspect this quote seems relatively innocuous to most liberals, when in fact it should scare the shit out them.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 17, 2021)

struth said:


> Do you know what a shareholder is? Shareholders, are owners of a company..without an owner, there may very well be no company at all


*Do you know the difference between primary and secondary securities markets?
Secondary Securities Market




Secondary Securities Market

Do you know what percentage of the total value of Wall Street's equity is new money going into firms as opposed to speculators' bank accounts?*

"Look closely at the stock market and it betrays some fundamental assumptions about the creation of wealth in today’s markets. 

"Only 1% of the total value of equity on Wall Street is actual _investment_ in the sense of new money going into firms. 

The Divine Right of Capital by Marjorie Kelly

"The remaining 99% is speculation – people buying and selling existing stock in the aftermarket of equity. 

"In the preface of the book, Kelly makes the good analogy of buying a car. 

"When you buy a new car, the money goes to Ford. 

"But when you buy a used car, it all goes to the previous car owner – Ford doesn’t get a cent. 

*"Stocks are the same – and the vast majority of money sloshing around is just trading hands and not actually being invested in firms."*


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 17, 2021)

struth said:


> I am not talking about "private roads" - I am talking about state roads, that have tolls


What does the state do with the money it collects?
How does that differ from how private for-profit corporations spend their revenues?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 17, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> Right-wingers seem the most like the (right-wing) Chinese.


I think the word is authoritarian.
Right wingers never advance beyond the childhood phase of needing a "strong man" to tell them what to do. That's why they killed and died for centuries defending the divine right of kings and why so many of them today protect the divine right of capital with equal fervor.




In a word, they are slaves.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 17, 2021)

dblack said:


> Yes. Let's soak the people with ability. Those greedy bastards, hoarding all the ability to themselves. They should give me free shit


*"What makes you believe greedy bastards with the ability to acquire vast amounts of "unearned income" need more money?  *

The inversion of Classical Economics | Michael Hudson

"The essence of classical economics was to reform industrial capitalism, to streamline it, and to free the European economies from the legacy of feudalism. 

*"The legacy of feudalism was landlords extracting land-rent, and living as a class that took income without producing anything."*


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 17, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> What's your point, moron?


Milton Friedman was NOT a disciple of Keynes, Loon.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 17, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> $15 billion taxes on a $28 billion gain is not 15% or 20%.


How would $15 billion (or $25.2 billion) affect the greedy freeloader's net worth?




Visualising Elon Musk’s vast wealth in four charts


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 17, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Do you know the difference between primary and secondary securities markets?
> Secondary Securities Market
> 
> 
> ...




*Do you know the difference between primary and secondary securities markets?*

How well do primary markets work if you don't have a strong secondary market?

*"The remaining 99% is speculation – people buying and selling existing stock in the aftermarket of equity.*

That's awful!!! People freely buying and selling existing stocks.
There ought to be a law against that, eh comrade?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 17, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How would $15 billion (or $25.2 billion) affect the greedy freeloader's net worth?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



OMG!!

How much of that did he steal from you?

Freeloader? DURR. How many jobs did he create? 
Is he selling a product that people are freely buying? That bastard!!!


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 17, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *"What makes you believe greedy bastards with the ability to acquire vast amounts of "unearned income" need more money?  *
> 
> The inversion of Classical Economics | Michael Hudson
> 
> ...


Your first mistake:  Capitalists are not the same as Feudal landlords.  The later obtained their land by grant from the king.  Capitalists have to obtain their land or capital by buying it.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 17, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How would $15 billion (or $25.2 billion) affect the greedy freeloader's net worth?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Who is the "greedy freeloader," Musk?  How is he a freeloader?


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 17, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Milton Friedman was NOT a disciple of Keynes, Loon.


I'm well aware of that.  How is that relevant to this discussion?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 17, 2021)

sakinago said:


> .I feel like I’m on board with “eat the rich” mentality. Although, I’d label it as more “eat the elite”. The inflation, gas prices, supply chain issues, gutting of small business, all of it is being done on purpose. Build back better and the great reset is the elites trying to institute modern day sharecropping on a global scale.


*Bloomberg and others reported on Joe Biden's commitment to economic elites in the summer of 2019:*

Biden to rich donors: "Nothing will fundamentally change"

"Former Vice President Joe Biden assured rich donors at a ritzy New York fundraiser that 'nothing would fundamentally change' if he is elected.

"Biden told donors at an event at the Carlyle Hotel in Manhattan on Tuesday evening that he would not 'demonize' the rich and promised that 'no one’s standard of living will change, nothing would fundamentally change,' Bloomberg News reported..."

"'I mean, we may not want to demonize anybody who has made money,' he said. 




"'The truth of the matter is, you all, you all know, you all know in your gut what has to be done. We can disagree in the margins but the truth of the matter is it’s all within our wheelhouse and nobody has to be punished. No one’s standard of living will change, nothing would fundamentally change.'

*"Biden went on to say that the rich should not be blamed for income inequality, pleading to the donors, 'I need you very badly.'*

"'I hope if I win this nomination, I won’t let you down. I promise you,' he added."


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 17, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> What the hell is "excess wage?"


How many links do you need?

Figure 2: Historical overview of excessive wages in the financial sector


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 17, 2021)

dblack said:


> Call it whatever you like. But the whole "from each according to ability" thing just seems naive. People don't like being used. They'll push back.


*You're too naive to notice how you are being used under capitalism, so maybe you'll find this interpretation more worldly:*

From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs - Wikipedia

"The French socialist Saint-Simonists of the 1820s and 1830s used slightly different slogans such as,' from each according to his ability, to each ability according to its work'[8] or,' From each according to his capacity, to each according to his works.'[9] 

"The origin of this phrasing has also been attributed to the French utopian Étienne-Gabriel Morelly,[10][11] who proposed in his 1755 _Code of Nature_ 'Sacred and Fundamental Laws that would tear out the roots of vice and of all the evils of a society.'"


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 17, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> The last thing we need is government deciding how much bankers get paid


You prefer bankers bribing government to decide how big their bonuses should be AFTER crashing the global economy?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 17, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> BTW, "cracker" is a racist term


fyi: crackers are racists.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 17, 2021)

Captain Caveman said:


> So democracy is having a vote so you can vote for a representative to represent you in government, and you think capitalism stops this?


I'm pretty sure rich voters have more influence with their representatives than the vast majority has


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 17, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> They are all communists. The Democrat party platform is indistinguishable from the Communist party platform.


"Former Vice President Joe Biden assured rich donors at a ritzy New York fundraiser that “nothing would fundamentally change” if he is elected.

*"Biden told donors at an event at the Carlyle Hotel in Manhattan on Tuesday evening that he would not 'demonize' the rich and promised that 'no one’s standard of living will change, nothing would fundamentally change,' *Bloomberg News reported.

"Biden’s assurance to donors in New York came shortly after his appearance at the Poor People’s Campaign Presidential Forum in Washington on Monday."

Biden to rich donors: "Nothing will fundamentally change"


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 17, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> You prefer bankers bribing government to decide how big their bonuses should be AFTER crashing the global economy?


I prefer no government at all.  Then there is no one to bribe.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 18, 2021)

dblack said:


> All humans are mammals.



All Libertarians are ???


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 18, 2021)

dblack said:


> The kind of democracy george advocates is _unlimited_ majority rule. It's not about representation. It's about getting what you want out of others through force.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 18, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> I prefer no government at all.  Then there is no one to bribe.


Only private sector bakers?


----------



## dblack (Nov 18, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> All Libertarians are ???


... wise to the propaganda you're disseminating.


----------



## dblack (Nov 18, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> [Another stupid multimedia propaganda piece]



Your previous definition was sufficient.


georgephillip said:


> Democratic socialism is the belief that both the economy and society should be run democratically (as opposed to authoritarianism)—to meet public needs, not to make profits for a few.


 I don't want government to "run" society. Nor the economy. What you're advocating is totalitarian government. One where every goddamned thing is subject to your precious majority rule.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 18, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "Former Vice President Joe Biden assured rich donors at a ritzy New York fundraiser that “nothing would fundamentally change” if he is elected.
> 
> *"Biden told donors at an event at the Carlyle Hotel in Manhattan on Tuesday evening that he would not 'demonize' the rich and promised that 'no one’s standard of living will change, nothing would fundamentally change,' *Bloomberg News reported.
> 
> ...


So?  Trump never promised to "fundamentally change America"  Only commies make such a promise.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 18, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> Only private sector bakers?


I think you mean "bankers," no "bakers."

Yes, precisely, that's how things were in this country until 1914.  From 1789 to 1914 we had less than zero inflation.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 18, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> I think you mean "bankers," no "bakers."
> 
> Yes, precisely, that's how things were in this country until 1914.  From 1789 to 1914 we had less than zero inflation.


I agree to disagree.  Bankers understand Capitalism.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 18, 2021)

dblack said:


> Sorry. Jefferson would have destroyed you. Go back to quoting Groucho.


One of your heroes?




Why am I not surprised?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 18, 2021)

Captain Caveman said:


> One moment you're on about democracy, now you switch topic to capitalism ??


Did you forget the title of this thread, Troll?


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 18, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> One of your heroes?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What "child" did Jefferson rape?


----------



## dblack (Nov 18, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> One of your heroes?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fuck you, twat.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 18, 2021)

Flash said:


> Socialism is the goddamn collective taking away the Liberties of individuals.
> 
> It may be democratic but it is oppressive.
> 
> Democracy can be just as oppressive as any other form of totalitarian government.


Capitalism requires individuals to check their democratic rights at the workplace door; socialism extends democratic decision making to the institution where a majority of adults spend half of their waking hours.




What Totalitarianism Looks Like


----------



## Flash (Nov 18, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Capitalism requires individuals to check their democratic rights at the workplace door; socialism extends democratic decision making to the institution where a majority of adults spend half of their waking hours.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Only if you a dumbass unproductive low life that don't have any marketable skills.  Of course if you are one of those people then your whole life will be other people running your life.


----------



## dblack (Nov 18, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Capitalism requires individuals to check their democratic rights at the workplace door


Yes, it does!



> socialism extends democratic decision making to the institution where a majority of adults spend half of their waking hours.


Leaving the decision making to someone else is the bargain one strikes when signing up to be an "employee". It's not required.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 18, 2021)

dblack said:


> Yes. Socialism strips everyone of their rights equally.


Capitalism strips everyone of their human rights unequally




Is Capitalism Racist?


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 18, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Capitalism requires individuals to check their democratic rights at the workplace door; socialism extends democratic decision making to the institution where a majority of adults spend half of their waking hours.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's a prescription for failure.  When has anything smart been decided by majority vote?


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 18, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Capitalism strips everyone of their human rights unequally
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What rights are those?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 18, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> You should have bought some.......







Is Capitalism Racist?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 18, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> Who came up with black codes, right-wingers.


Conservatives in all political parties are often afraid to compete on level, heavily regulated playing fields where all participants are entitled to equal opportunity to participate. It's sad, but it appears to be part of their DNA?




Are our political views encoded by our DNA?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 18, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> hitler wasnt in america dumbass,, but if he was I wouldnt have silenced him,,


Would you have killed "racial inferiors" for him?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 18, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Is Capitalism Racist?



You never saved/invested any money because.....racism? LOL!


----------



## progressive hunter (Nov 18, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Would you have killed "racial inferiors" for him?


no such thing as racial inferiors,,


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 18, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> Upgrading infrastructure would have been better than a world war.


*Some economic historians believe the US virtually ensured WWII when it required its WWI allies to repay their loans. Prior to that conflict, it was traditional for allies to forgive the loans that helped win their victory. When the UK and France had to repay Wall Street, the Germans paid the price*.

Germany's Choice | Michael Hudson

"The reality since World War I is that the United States has taken the lead in shaping the international financial system to promote gains for its own bankers, farm exporters, its oil and gas sector, and buyers of foreign resources – *and most of all, to collect on debts owed to it."*


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 18, 2021)

Dogmaphobe said:


> Considering what I have read as to your attitudes towards the Jewish state, you would have embraced his message thoroughly.


I believe Hitler's abuse of Jews, Roma, and other "racial inferiors" is being mirrored in Israel's current abuse of non-Jews in Palestine. It's likely another example of the abused child growing up to become an abuser him/her self.





Jewish Voice for Peace | Justice • Equality • Dignity


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 18, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Some economic historians believe the US virtually ensured WWII when it required its WWI allies to repay their loans. Prior to that conflict, it was traditional for allies to forgive the loans that helped win their victory. When the UK and France had to repay Wall Street, the Germans paid the price*.
> 
> Germany's Choice | Michael Hudson
> 
> "The reality since World War I is that the United States has taken the lead in shaping the international financial system to promote gains for its own bankers, farm exporters, its oil and gas sector, and buyers of foreign resources – *and most of all, to collect on debts owed to it."*


*"it was traditional for allies to forgive the loans that helped win their victory."*

Is it?  I'm not aware of any such thing prior to WW I


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 18, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> I believe Hitler's abuse of Jews, Roma, and other "racial inferiors" is being mirrored in Israel's current abuse of non-Jews in Palestine. It's likely another example of the abused child growing up to become an abuser him/her self.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Israel is treating them better than they deserve.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 18, 2021)

struth said:


> It depends how many people are running for office


The biggest deciding factor in winning public office is running as a Republican or Democrat in spite of the occasional exception "Independent" office holder. Winning a major party primary usually requires appealing to wealthy donors for campaign funds. It's the "best government money can buy."


----------



## dblack (Nov 18, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Winning a major party primary usually requires appealing to wealthy donors for campaign funds. It's the "best government money can buy."


Yet that wasn't really how Trump did it. He was as grass roots and populist as Bernie. Arguably moreso.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 18, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The biggest deciding factor in winning public office is running as a Republican or Democrat in spite of the occasional exception "Independent" office holder. Winning a major party primary usually requires appealing to wealthy donors for campaign funds. It's the "best government money can buy."


Yet, you still worship democracy.


----------



## dblack (Nov 18, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Yet, you still worship democracy.


But their vision of democracy has morphed into unlimited majority rule. They've pretty much abandoned the kind of liberal democracy our constitution describes.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 18, 2021)

struth said:


> What is "corporate capitalism" and how is it different then capitalism? and what's a "corporate democrat?"


Modern Capitalism: Mergers and Syndicates




"In social science and economics, *corporate capitalism* is a capitalist marketplace characterized by the dominance of hierarchical and bureaucratic corporations."
Corporate capitalism - Wikipedia

*Corporate Democrats depend on rich donors to fund their campaigns and retirements. Over the past forty years the FIRE sector capitalists (finance, insurance, real estate) have become the dominant specie of corporate capitalists.*


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 18, 2021)

struth said:


> yeah NAFTA wasn't a great deal for the US, glad Trump got rid of it and a better deal.


I don't know about any "better deal" but I believe Trump is right about NAFTA and NATO.

Blind squirrel or broken clock?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 19, 2021)

struth said:


> Nah, actually that was Dem Govs lockdowns. Nobody made Gavin do that.


Trump's ignorance and arrogance (not to mention stupidity) made lockdowns necessary:




The coronavirus death toll in the U.S. has officially surpassed that of WWI


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 19, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Trump's ignorance and arrogance (not to mention stupidity) made lockdowns necessary:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The why doesn't Florida have the worst COVID statistics?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 19, 2021)

struth said:


> why woudn't they mind their stocks and investments? They aren't all that productive if they are laid off....they are actually the opposite.....so that's why they should be spending their time wisely, like managing their investments....IRA, 401Ks, pensions, are all investments worth managing


*The vast majority of productive Americans have no reason to contribute to increasing wealth inequality, do they?*


"The wealthiest 10% of American households now own 89% of all U.S. stocks, a record high that highlights* the stock market’s role in increasing wealth inequality.*
The top 1% gained over $6.5 trillion in corporate equities and mutual fund wealth during the pandemic, according to the latest data from the Federal Reserve.
The bottom 90% of Americans held about 11% of stocks, and added $1.2 trillion in wealth during the Covid-19 pandemic."
The wealthiest 10% of Americans own a record 89% of all U.S. stocks


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 19, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *The vast majority of productive Americans have no reason to contribute to increasing wealth inequality, do they?*
> 
> 
> "The wealthiest 10% of American households now own 89% of all U.S. stocks, a record high that highlights* the stock market’s role in increasing wealth inequality.*
> ...


So we're all getting wealthier.  You're just envious of those who are getting wealthy faster.

Is that about right?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 19, 2021)

dblack said:


> You want the economy to be run "democratically". That covers pretty much everything.


I want public stakeholders including workers, customers, suppliers, neighbors and the broader public to run the economy; why don't you explain why you believe corporate managers and corporate shareholders should continue to corrupt political democracy by giving the richest Americans a bigger and bigger share of the pie?


----------



## dblack (Nov 19, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> I want public stakeholders including workers, customers, suppliers, neighbors and the broader public to run the economy;


They already do. Voluntarily and collaboratively. What you want is majority rule, right?


> why don't you explain why you believe corporate managers and corporate shareholders should continue to corrupt political democracy by giving the richest Americans a bigger and bigger share of the pie?


Because I don't believe that.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 19, 2021)

dblack said:


> Political democracy can't exist without a free market. That's part of what is causing the US to unravel.


Doers Singapore have a "free" market?
How's democracy faring there?
Capitalism's only concern is maximizing profits, so it's conception of a "free market" is one that's free of any respect for human rights.


----------



## dblack (Nov 19, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Doers Singapore have a "free" market?


Beats me. Who gives a fuck?


> How's democracy faring there?


Dunno. Don't care.


> Capitalism's only concern ...


Capitalism has no "concerns". People do. And they all have different goals and priorities.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 19, 2021)

dblack said:


> In general, I think avoiding debt is great advice.


I agree; however, when wages stagnate over forty years while asset prices continue to inflate, debt is no longer voluntary for millions of Americans.


----------



## dblack (Nov 19, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> I agree; however, when wages stagnate over forty years while asset prices continue to inflate, debt is no longer voluntary for millions of Americans.


Yep. It's vital that we remove government's power to devalue currency. Let's hope bitcoin works.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 19, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> I want public stakeholders including workers, customers, suppliers, neighbors and the broader public to run the economy; why don't you explain why you believe corporate managers and corporate shareholders should continue to corrupt political democracy by giving the richest Americans a bigger and bigger share of the pie?


"Public stakeholders" is a prog term meaning people with no money at stake.

They made the pie, asshole.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 20, 2021)

dblack said:


> If your government (or your "co-operative") controls your income, they control _you_. Completely and totally.


If your employer controls your income, they control you.
Leaving one private tyrant for another changes nothing of substance.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 20, 2021)

struth said:


> not sure what you are talking about
> 
> only stupid people would vote for hyperinflation xiden


*Don the Con is a corrupt crony-capitalist who cut out venal middlemen/women like Biden and Clinton (along with Bush I and II and Obama, etc, etc. 

Anyone who voted for any of the above named corporate hacks is missing the picture.*




"Class warfare has taken place in the USA, and the wealth owning classes won. 

*"20% of the overall US tax burden was shifted from the corporations largely owned by the wealthy onto working people.* 

"The tax haven assault was not only on the right of government to tax, it was also on the people of the world. 

*"As corporate profits have risen - and they have - corporate tax revenues have fallen..."

Biden’s tax plan is about tackling the class warfare of the US elite*


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 20, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "20% of the overall US tax burden was shifted from the corporations largely owned by the wealthy onto working people.



It's easier to tax the rich people when they get paid by the corporation.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 20, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> It's easier to tax the rich people when they get paid by the corporation.


General taxes are more cost effective when we can solve simple poverty to generate more tax revenue.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 20, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> General taxes are more cost effective when we can solve simple poverty to generate more tax revenue.



Bum checks would reduce tax revenue.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 20, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Bum checks would reduce tax revenue.


All those millions of persons are not paying taxes now; you can't complain about it if you are unwilling to solve the problem by merely promoting and providing for the general welfare.  We could be generating billions from simple, general taxes through that form of full employment of capital resources in our market based economy.

Even just One percent from all those persons having around 30k to spend in our market economy would be the difference.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 20, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> You're damn right!!!







CAPITALIST PIG! - Weekly World News


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 20, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> CAPITALIST PIG! - Weekly World News


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 20, 2021)

dblack said:


> uthoritarian excess and socialism go hand-in-hand


No more than Libertarians


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 20, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> No more than Libertarians



Sounds like a solid platform.

Thumbs up!!!


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 20, 2021)

dblack said:


> Mm-hmm. And which people will "directly control" these institutions?


Stakeholders as opposed to shareholders.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 20, 2021)

dblack said:


> It's fiat currency. The state controls how much it's worth. They use that power to devalue currency so bankers can make money and the state can steal from the population without them realizing it.


Fiat money - Wikipedia

*"Fiat money* is a type of money that is not backed by any commodity such as gold or silver, and derives its value solely from the trust that people place on it.

"Throughout history, fiat money was sometimes issued by local banks and other institutions. In modern times, fiat money is generally established by government regulation."

*Would you prefer fiat currency supplied by Wall Street banks or other private monopolies?*




Facebook-backed Diem aims to launch digital currency pilot later this year


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 20, 2021)

struth said:


> socialism makes people equally slaves to the state. But not free to actually own the fruits of their own labor.


It is the owners in capitalism who appropriate the fruits of their workers' labor.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 20, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> It is the owners in capitalism who appropriate the fruits of their workers' labor.



How did those evil owners force you to work for them?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 20, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> How many billions does Xi have?


"To try to understand what has made Xi Jinping the leader he is today you have to take a look at his background.

"His father, Xi Zhongxun, was a Communist Party war hero, known as a moderate, who was later purged and imprisoned in the Mao era.

"At the time Mr Xi's mother was forced to denounce his father. 

"After his father's official rehabilitation in 1978, he pushed for economic liberalisation in Guangdong Province and reportedly defended one of China's most progressive leaders Hu Yaobang.

"Given the persecution of Mr Xi's father at the hands of Communist Party zealots, given his father's inclination towards reform, many have asked why Xi Jinping now seems to be taking the Party in a direction which would appear to be at odds with his father's beliefs?"

Changing China: Xi Jinping's effort to return to socialism


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 20, 2021)

dblack said:


> Because rich capitalists don't have the power to coerce people into doing what they want. If they do something stupid with Bitcoin, we'd just stop buying it and invest in something else. And the rich capitalists wouldn't be rich capitalists anymore.


*Should the US follow in El Salvador's Bitcoin footsteps?*

Factbox: Pros and cons for El Salvador, the first bitcoin nation

"SAN SALVADOR, Sept 7 (Reuters) - El Salvador will on Tuesday become the first country in the world to *recognize bitcoin as legal tender, *a move President Nayib Bukele says will save Salvadorans living abroad millions of dollars in commissions on money they send home."


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 20, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> No more than Libertarians


How is abolishing government agencies "authoritarianism?"  It's exactly the opposite.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 20, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Should the US follow in El Salvador's Bitcoin footsteps?*
> 
> Factbox: Pros and cons for El Salvador, the first bitcoin nation
> 
> "SAN SALVADOR, Sept 7 (Reuters) - El Salvador will on Tuesday become the first country in the world to *recognize bitcoin as legal tender, *a move President Nayib Bukele says will save Salvadorans living abroad millions of dollars in commissions on money they send home."


The US should go back to free banking.  Then banks could choose whatever form of tender they like, which would undoubtedly be the gold backed notes.


----------



## danielpalos (Nov 20, 2021)

struth said:


> they aren’t unequal…employees can become owners….they are equally free to obtain whatever they want
> 
> socialism makes people equally slaves to the state. But not free to actually own the fruits of their own labor.


This is the Socialism we are talking about:

_The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States._


----------



## dblack (Nov 20, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> The US should go back to free banking.  Then banks could choose whatever form of tender they like, which would undoubtedly be the gold backed notes.


Or Bitcoin.


----------



## dblack (Nov 20, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> How did those evil owners force you to work for them?


They tricked him. They told him there would be cake.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 21, 2021)

dblack said:


> Or Bitcoin.


Bitcoin would quickly lose out to gold backed notes.  The only reason it's still alive is the fact that private notes are illegal.


----------



## dblack (Nov 21, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Bitcoin would quickly lose out to gold backed notes.  The only reason it's still alive is the fact that private notes are illegal.


Maybe. But Bitcoin has nailed all the key features of gold, and more. A lot of it depends on whether the world grasps the value of an independent currency. I think they will. I think they are.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 21, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Bitcoin would quickly lose out to gold backed notes.  The only reason it's still alive is the fact that private notes are illegal.



Who is going to issue gold-backed notes?


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 21, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Who is going to issue gold-backed notes?


Every bank, the minute it becomes legal.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 21, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Every bank, the minute it becomes legal.



A bank is going to buy and store an ounce of gold so they can issue 1846 gold backed notes?
If gold goes down to 1800, do they have to buy back 46 of those notes?
If a note holder shows up with one of their notes, are they going to shave off 1/1846th of 
an ounce to redeem the note?

Sounds pretty clunky. I don't see the benefit. Do you?


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 21, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> A bank is going to buy and store an ounce of gold so they can issue 1846 gold backed notes?
> If gold goes down to 1800, do they have to buy back 46 of those notes?
> If a note holder shows up with one of their notes, are they going to shave off 1/1846th of
> an ounce to redeem the note?
> ...


It won't go down to 1800.  If the bank sets the exchange rate at 1846,  then it will have to return an ounce of gold if someone turns in 1846.

The advantage is that you have no inflation.  The value of a note will remain the same in terms of gold.  Fiat money is a mechanism for the government to loot your savings.

You obviously don't understand how a gold backed currency works.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 21, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> The term "libertarian socialism" is an oxymoron


Only in Trump-Land


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 21, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Only in Trump-Land


No wonder you're confused.  You read Chomsky.  

A libertarian is someone who favors economic freedom, the exact opposite of what socialists support.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 21, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Utter horseshit. Slavery was invented 10,000 years ago, dumbass.


And 9500 years later slavery invented capitalism.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 21, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> "Exploitation" is a meaningless word.


To morons and slaves.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 21, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> It won't go down to 1800.  If the bank sets the exchange rate at 1846,  then it will have to return an ounce of gold if someone turns in 1846.
> 
> The advantage is that you have no inflation.  The value of a note will remain the same in terms of gold.  Fiat money is a mechanism for the government to loot your savings.
> 
> You obviously don't understand how a gold backed currency works.



*It won't go down to 1800*





It was below $1800 as recently as August and again in September.

*If the bank sets the exchange rate at 1846,  then it will have to return an ounce of gold if someone turns in 1846.*

And when it goes above $1846, how long will their notes continue circulating?
Is the note going to read "Exchangeable for 1/1846th of an ounce"?

Like I said, clunky. 

*The advantage is that you have no inflation.*

Why would a Bank of America, for example, gold-note stop inflation?

*The value of a note will remain the same in terms of gold.*

And if gold drops to $1700, your 1/1846th is now worth 92 cents.

*You obviously don't understand how a gold backed currency works.*

In the above examples, not very well.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 21, 2021)

struth said:


> As Adam Smith, wrote, slavery is completely innefficient...therefore not compatiable with Captialism


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 21, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> And 9500 years later slavery invented capitalism.



Even you can't be stupid enough to believe that.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 21, 2021)

22lcidw said:


> The thinking of Spain and France and others who came here became secondary because they did not have the Magna Carta, the English Rule of Law which were primitive in rights for peasants


*The Magna Carta bestowed rights upon landowners not peasants. It has produced a system of government that gives creditors the right to exploit debtors, and it persists to this day:*

Sovereignty in the Ancient Near East | Michael Hudson

"After the Norman invasion you had the Magna Carta when the autocratic King John tried to grab all the economic surplus for himself. 

"The landowning barons wanted to break free. 

"The Magna Carta limited what kings could tax without landlord agreement. 

"The barons said, in effect, 'The rent that we formerly paid to support the royal army, we henceforth will keep for ourselves. Also, we won’t pay the debts we owe to the Jews, so that we can keep our land.' 

*"The founding constitution or legal documents of almost every nation have to do with the relationship between finance, land tenure and its tax liability, and the relationship between centralised power and local power."*


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 21, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *It won't go down to 1800*
> 
> View attachment 566869
> 
> ...


You don't get how bank notes work, obviously.  Once the exchange rate is set, it stays at whatever rate was chosen.  The bank has to give an OZ of gold if someone exchanges $1800 for it.  There isn't any higgling about the rate.


Toddsterpatriot said:


> *The value of a note will remain the same in terms of gold.*
> 
> And if gold drops to $1700, your 1/1846th is now worth 92 cents.



It can't drop because the bank is legally bound to exchange 1800 notes for an house of gold.  The bank is obviously never going to accept less.  That would deplete it's reserves at a much faster rate, and the banks customers are not going to pay more if they aren't legally required to.



Toddsterpatriot said:


> *You obviously don't understand how a gold backed currency works.*
> 
> In the above examples, not very well.



We had free banking in this country until 1914.  Banks could all issue their own notes backed by gold.  It worked beautifully.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 21, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Answer the question.....extracting how?


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 21, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *The Magna Carta bestowed rights upon landowners not peasants. It has produced a system of government that gives creditors the right to exploit debtors, and it persists to this day:*
> 
> Sovereignty in the Ancient Near East | Michael Hudson
> 
> ...


Could you quote the document where it says that?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 21, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *The Magna Carta bestowed rights upon landowners not peasants. It has produced a system of government that gives creditors the right to exploit debtors, and it persists to this day:*
> 
> Sovereignty in the Ancient Near East | Michael Hudson
> 
> ...



No debt in the USSR, how'd that work out for them?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 21, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> You don't get how bank notes work, obviously.  Once the exchange rate is set, it stays at whatever rate was chosen.  The bank has to give an OZ of gold if someone exchanges $1800 for it.  There isn't any higgling about the rate.
> 
> 
> It can't drop because the bank is legally bound to exchange 1800 notes for an house of gold.  The bank is obviously never going to accept less.  That would deplete it's reserves at a much faster rate, and the banks customers are not going to pay more if they aren't legally required to.
> ...



*The bank has to give an OZ of gold if someone exchanges $1800 for it. There isn't any higgling about the rate.*

That is awesome!!! So when inflation happens, and gold rises to $1900, every one of those notes is redeemed.

*It can't drop because the bank is legally bound to exchange 1800 notes for an house of gold. *

Gold can't drop to $1700? Why not?

*We had free banking in this country until 1914.  Banks could all issue their own notes backed by gold.*

Unless your bank failed, and you got zero for your notes.
They were usually backed by bond holdings, not gold holdings.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 21, 2021)

georgephillip said:


>



Who says deflation is good?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 21, 2021)

struth said:


> hahah yeah we saw that "democractic socialism" play out in Hugo's Venezula..


How did literacy and infant mortality rates in Venezuela change after Chavez came to power?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 21, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> They aren't polarizing, dumbass. The USA becomes more socialist with every Democrat election.


The Democratic Party in America is the party of Wall Street, Rube.
Who else would get away with signing NAFTA, gutting Glass-Steagall, blocking regulation of bank derivative gambles, and inaugurating a wave of deregulation and outright criminalization of banking?
OPINION: Time to bury the Clinton economic legacy


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 21, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How did literacy and infant mortality rates in Venezuela change after Chavez came to power?



Before or after Chavez stole billions?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 21, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> How does the government becoming more socialist constitute polarizing the country?


How did the government become more socialist by repealing Glass-Steagall?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 21, 2021)

dblack said:


> It's been explained to you, in excruciating detail, by scores of people by now, how investment and profit perform vital functions in a healthy economy.


Link to one of those alleged explanations then tell me if you comprehend the distinction between industrial vs finance capitalism.


----------



## dblack (Nov 21, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Link to one of those alleged explanations then tell me if you comprehend the distinction between industrial vs finance capitalism.


No. If you don't recall, or don't have the wherewithal to search for them yourself, I give no shits.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 21, 2021)

dblack said:


> Nothing is more authoritarian than the state controlling trade.


Of course there is.




It is bad enough when private tyrants like the Koch brothers indirectly control politics, but it isn't hard to imagine how much worse it would get if they assumed direct control without any pesky elections to steal or corrupt.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 21, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *The bank has to give an OZ of gold if someone exchanges $1800 for it. There isn't any higgling about the rate.*
> 
> That is awesome!!! So when inflation happens, and gold rises to $1900, every one of those notes is redeemed.
> 
> ...


Inflation doesn't happen.  What does happen is that if the bank prints too many bank notes, then its note holders will draw down bank's gold reserves.  If it prints too many notes, then there will be a run on the bank until it can't exchange gold for bank notes any longer.  That's what happened in the panic of 1929.

Gold can't drop to $1700 because the bank has no incentive to let it drop to that point.  That means the bank is paying more gold for each of its bank notes.  For obvious reasons, it doesn't want to do that.  

*"We had free banking in this country until 1914.  Banks could all issue their own notes backed by gold.*
_
Unless your bank failed, and you got zero for your notes.
They were usually backed by bond holdings, not gold holdings."_

You're displaying your ignorance again.  They were backed by gold.  That's what a gold standard is.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 21, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Inflation doesn't happen.  What does happen is that if the bank prints too many bank notes, then its note holders will draw down bank's gold reserves.  If it prints too many notes, then there will be a run on the bank until it can't exchange gold for bank notes any longer.  That's what happened in the panic of 1929.
> 
> Gold can't drop to $1700 because the bank has no incentive to let it drop to that point.  That means the bank is paying more gold for each of its bank notes.  For obvious reasons, it doesn't want to do that.
> 
> ...



*Inflation doesn't happen.*

Gold goes up and down, even if banks issue their own gold backed notes.

*What does happen is that if the bank prints too many bank notes, then its note holders will draw down bank's gold reserves.*

Banks never had 100% gold backing for their notes. Not ever.

*Gold can't drop to $1700 because the bank has no incentive to let it drop to that point.*

If you think Bank of America and JPMorgan and whatever other banks you feel will issue their own notes can stop gold from dropping to $1700 or lower, you don't understand the size of the gold market. A bank's incentive has zero to do with it.

*You're displaying your ignorance again.  They were backed by gold.  That's what a gold standard is.*

A gold standard is the government setting the value of a currency, not a private bank.
If you have any proof they were backed by gold, post it.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 22, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *Inflation doesn't happen.*
> 
> Gold goes up and down, even if banks issue their own gold backed notes.
> 
> ...


You're wasting your time because what I described is exactly how our monetary system worked prior to the creation of the Federal Reserve.  It's a fact of history.   And, yes, we did have bank notes back by gold


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 22, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> You're wasting your time because what I described is exactly how our monetary system worked prior to the creation of the Federal Reserve.  It's a fact of history.   And, yes, we did have bank notes back by gold



If you have proof that any bank issued notes 100% backed by gold.......post it here.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 22, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> If you have proof that any bank issued notes 100% backed by gold.......post it here.


I just did, dumbass.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 22, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> I just did, dumbass.



A picture of one note isn't proof that the banks notes were 100% gold backed.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 22, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> A picture of one note isn't proof that the banks notes were 100% gold backed.


ROFL!  You're immune to facts and logic.  

Here, read this:

https://web.mit.edu/merolish/Public/books/libertarian/tmc.pdf


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 22, 2021)

dblack said:


> Can you answer the question, rather than seeking diversion? Why do you ignore the function of investment and profit in a free market?


*I can imagine investment designed to further productive enterprises instead of asset price inflation, why can't you?*

Sovereignty in the Ancient Near East | Michael Hudson

"Saint-Simon founded a school of reformers in France that realized that in order to industrialise the nation, to catch up with England and overtake it, it had to move banking beyond its medieval stage. 

"Instead of making lending to businesses in exchange for interest payments – which can force them into bankruptcy when sales turn down, *bank loans should really be made on the basis of profit sharing. *

"This is how commercial loans were made back in Babylonian times. Saint-Simon’s idea was to make banks more like mutual funds. 

"Their fortunes would rise or fall with those of their business clients."


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 22, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> ROFL!  You're immune to facts and logic.
> 
> Here, read this:
> 
> https://web.mit.edu/merolish/Public/books/libertarian/tmc.pdf



So post the facts that back your claim.


----------



## dblack (Nov 22, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Can you answer the question, rather than seeking diversion?
> ...


I'll take that as a "no".


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 22, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> So post the facts that back your claim.


Been there. Done that.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 22, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Been there. Done that.



That's funny.
It's like you're using liberal math.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 22, 2021)

struth said:


> Socialism is the State ownership...under Socialism you have even MORE CONCENRATED money and political power, since only the State owns things.


What is Democratic Socialism? - Democratic Socialists of America (DSA)

"Capitalism is a system designed by the owning class to exploit the rest of us for their own profit. 

"We must replace it with democratic socialism, a system where ordinary people have a real voice in our workplaces, neighborhoods, and society."


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 22, 2021)

struth said:


> Actually in a capitalist society, we have public ownership....anyone can by a share of any publicly traded company. Try again.


How much "ownership" does that share provide in a one-share-one vote system compared to a one-person one-vote democracy?




"CBO Chart, U.S. Holdings of Family Wealth 1989 to 2013. The top 10% of families held 76% of the wealth in 2013, while the bottom 50% of families held 1%. Inequality increased from 1989 to 2013."

Wealth inequality in the United States - Wikipedia


----------



## dblack (Nov 22, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> What is Democratic Socialism? - Democratic Socialists of America (DSA)
> 
> "Capitalism is a system designed by the owning class to exploit the rest of us for their own profit.
> 
> "We must replace it with democratic socialism, a system where ordinary people have a real voice in our workplaces, neighborhoods, and society."


"We want every fucking thing you do to be controlled by majority rule."


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 22, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How much "ownership" does that share provide in a one-share-one vote system



One share's worth.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 22, 2021)

struth said:


> There is only one form of socialism...you can paint it up, and give it different adjectives in front of it to try and re-package it and sell it...but it is what it is


It's obvious you haven't a clue about what socialism is, and you have no interest in learning.




Different types of socialism - Economics Help


----------



## struth (Nov 22, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> What is Democratic Socialism? - Democratic Socialists of America (DSA)
> 
> "Capitalism is a system designed by the owning class to exploit the rest of us for their own profit.
> 
> "We must replace it with democratic socialism, a system where ordinary people have a real voice in our workplaces, neighborhoods, and society."


yeah socialist always say some fun stuff but the. take office


georgephillip said:


> How much "ownership" does that share provide in a one-share-one vote system compared to a one-person one-vote democracy?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


one share buys you one vote…just like in a democracatic govt, one citizen (with age requirements) gets one vote.  

however you can buy more shares and get more votes


----------



## struth (Nov 22, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> It's obvious you haven't a clue about what socialism is, and you have no interest in learning.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I read what Marx wrote…and of course seen it throughout history


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 22, 2021)

dblack said:


> The power to employ force against those who won't do what you want them to do. Governments have this power, private wealth does not.


Private wealth which has the power to control government has the power to force you to do what you don't want to do.

Ask Steven Donziger if you're still confused:




Lawyer Who Won $9.5 Billion Judgment Against Chevron Reports to Prison


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 22, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> My workers don't get to vote on my ownership.


Then you won't be the owner much longer.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 22, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> When we compare East Germany to West Germany, even a moron like you can see what works best.


Before or after German capitalists got their asses kicked by Stalin's communists?
Even a semi-literate bean-counter like you should know this answer.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 22, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> It's obvious you haven't a clue about what socialism is, and you have no interest in learning.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's your fantasy world.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 22, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Private wealth which has the power to control government has the power to force you to do what you don't want to do.
> 
> Ask Steven Donziger if you're still confused:
> 
> ...



A crooked lawyer going to prison?
So sad.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 22, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Then you won't be the owner much longer.



I'm the owner as long as I want to be.
You're still a poor loser.
Lose those chains, comrade!!!


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 22, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Before or after German capitalists got their asses kicked by Stalin's communists?
> Even a semi-literate bean-counter like you should know this answer.



When did West German capitalists ever lose to East German commies?


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 22, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Private wealth which has the power to control government has the power to force you to do what you don't want to do.
> 
> Ask Steven Donziger if you're still confused:
> 
> ...


So you are admitting that democracy can't work.


----------



## dblack (Nov 22, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Private wealth which has the power to control government has the power to force you to do what you don't want to do.


Yes. We need a constitutional "wall of separation" between economic and state power. The more we combine them, the worse things get.


----------



## Flopper (Nov 22, 2021)

dblack said:


> Your previous definition was sufficient.
> 
> I don't want government to "run" society. Nor the economy. What you're advocating is totalitarian government. One where every goddamned thing is subject to your precious majority rule.


Majority rule works well for a homogenous society which of course does not exist in the US, dissimilar cultures, religions, races, education, and  economic status.   I think we need leaders less concerned with winning over the majority and more concerned with solving the nations problems even thou it is not what the majority might want.

The founders believe those that followed them would be reasonable people willing to work together for the good of the nation.   That does not exist today.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 23, 2021)

Flopper said:


> Majority rule works well for a homogenous society which of course does not exist in the US, dissimilar cultures, religions, races, education, and  economic status.   I think we need leaders less concerned with winning over the majority and more concerned with solving the nations problems even thou it is not what the majority might want.
> 
> The founders believe those that followed them would be reasonable people willing to work together for the good of the nation.   That does not exist today.


Majority rule never works well.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 23, 2021)

dblack said:


> a-ching!
> 
> Do you have a quota?


*Do you have a response?*

The Marxist Perspective on Crime

*"Capitalism is Criminogenic*​_"Many Marxists see crime as a natural ‘outgrowth’ of the capitalist system. _The Capitalist system can be said to be criminogenic in three major ways –


"Capitalism encourages individuals to pursue self-interest rather than public duty
Capitalism encourages individuals to be materialistic consumers, making us aspire to an unrealistic and often unattainable lifestyle.
Capitalism in its wake generates massive inequality and poverty, conditions which are correlated with higher crime rates."


----------



## dblack (Nov 23, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Do you have a response?


Indeed, I do. My response is mockery. If you're going to use the board to spread your propaganda - I'm going to point out just how stupid it is.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 23, 2021)

dblack said:


> I was mocking your stupid question with a stupid answer. Do you have a point, so-crates?


Nothing an advocate  of extreme right-wing private tyranny would grasp, Von Mi$-e$


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 23, 2021)

struth said:


> Big Pharma, he literally said the same company is selling it in Canada
> .
> We get fucked here because Canada won’t pay full price and Americans are left subsidizing the cost for their meds


"When lawmakers created Medicare's Part D outpatient prescription drug program in 2003, they barred Medicare from negotiating prices. 

"Republicans who controlled Congress at the time wanted insurers that administer drug plans to do the haggling. Medicare was sidelined, despite decades of experience setting prices for hospitals, doctors and nursing homes.

Ban on negotiating Medicare drug prices under pressure

"'I don't know of any other situation where the government has one hand tied behind its back when dealing with people like big pharma,' said Sen. Ron Wyden, D-Ore., who is leading efforts to draft the Democratic plan in the Senate."


----------



## Flopper (Nov 23, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Do you have a response?*
> 
> The Marxist Perspective on Crime
> 
> ...


Both Capitalism and Socialism are competing economic theories which can not be sustained in the real world. Unfettered capitalism may be the best economic system ever devised, but one of its drawbacks is that it provides financial incentives to distort the political and judicial system and to harm and even kill people for sake of profits.  Pure socialism destroys the incentive to succeed. Working for the good of the group or mankind is a noble idea but in reality, productivity is far less than when one works for the  good of one's self.  Both socialisms and capitalism exist in almost all nations.  Balancing the two competing ideologies provides the highest level of productivity commensurate with the social well being of society. It is is the balance between these to two ideologies that all nations should strive.


----------



## Leviticus (Nov 23, 2021)

Neither is socialism.  Every country that has ever exists thats used only socialism has ended in dictatorship.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 23, 2021)

dblack said:


> Speak for yourself. That's not my worldview. And I don't really know anyone who would claim that as general premise. It's just more socialist propaganda. Strawman for the win!


*Only slavish libertarians would confuse "the unconscious mental habits we use to make sense of the world" with a strawman.

If you had bothered to scan my link you would see the evidence is clearly on display in today's financial statements*

The Divine Right of Capital by Marjorie Kelly

"All societies have world views, the 'unconscious mental habits' we use to make sense of the world – so deep, so pervasive as to be invisible. 

"Aristocratic society in feudal times based its membership on property ownership. 

"Back then, it was land. 

"Today it’s wealth, or financial assets. 

"Throughout the book, *Kelly draws a connection between feudal aristocracy and our modern aristocracy, the wealthy shareholder.*




"Today, our worldview has a bias – that stockholders are to be paid as much as possible, while employees are to be paid as little as possible. 

"'Income for one group is declared good, and income for another group is declared bad.' 

*"Nowhere is this more clear than in our financial statements."*


----------



## Flopper (Nov 23, 2021)

Leviticus said:


> Neither is socialism.  Every country that has ever exists thats used only socialism has ended in dictatorship.


Neither Socialism nor Capitalism has ever been successfully implement.  Attempts to implement pure socialism leads to totalitarian rule.  Unfettered capitalism has only existed where goverment is weak or corrupt.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 23, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "'Income for one group is declared good, and income for another group is declared bad.'



Baloney.

*"Nowhere is this more clear than in our financial statements."*

Where does a financial statement say that?


----------



## dblack (Nov 23, 2021)

Flopper said:


> Neither Socialism nor Capitalism has ever been successfully implement.


I don't get this comment. I hear it a lot, and I guess people think it comes off as wise or moderate. But it's kind of meaningless. Immortality has never been "successfully implemented" either. Does that mean should stop trying to live longer? The question is whether we should aim for Capitalism or Socialism? Which do you want more of? Which do you want less of?



Flopper said:


> Unfettered capitalism has only existed where goverment is weak or corrupt.


That's another phrase that's become popular with socialists in recent years: "unfettered capitalism". What is that supposed to mean? Do you mean unrestricted trade? Or do you mean lawlessness? They're different. Capitalism can't exist in a state of lawlessness.


----------



## elektra (Nov 24, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *I don't support certain aspects of our current society like this one:*
> 
> "Today, our worldview has a bias – that stockholders are to be paid as much as possible, while employees are to be paid as little as possible."
> 
> ...


I work for a stockholder company. I make 160k a year. No college degree. 

Again georgieporgie shows his deep ignorance of the big world outside his tiny brain.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 24, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Stockbrokers are employees, nimrod.


What do they produce?


----------



## dblack (Nov 24, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> What do they produce?



Resource allocation. We've talked about that. Do you need a remedial course?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 24, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> What do they produce?




Jeremy Corbyn.....calling someone a parasite. Hilarious!!!


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 24, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> What's the lie?


The Business Roundtable, MiBiz and the free-market lie




Why Free Market Ideology is a Double Lie - Evonomics


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 24, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The Business Roundtable, MiBiz and the free-market lie
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In other words, no lie.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 24, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The Business Roundtable, MiBiz and the free-market lie
> 
> 
> 
> ...


_
Blair is a political economist based in Toronto. He researches how energy use and income inequality relate to social hierarchy. _

So he's never had a real job.


----------



## dblack (Nov 24, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> _Blair is a political economist based in Toronto. He researches how energy use and income inequality relate to social hierarchy. _
> 
> So he's never had a real job.


Shilling for socialism is a real job. Just ask georgephillip.


----------



## themirrorthief (Nov 24, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Finance capitalism is transforming US democracy into an oligarchy, something neither Trump nor Biden has any problem with.


broke  people  have  no  freedom


----------



## themirrorthief (Nov 24, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The New Deal created the greatest middle class in history after capitalism collapsed the global economy in 1929. Central planning won both world wars in the 20th century. By early 2020 when the MAGA pandemic first began shutting down the world economy, 87 million US residents lacked adequate healthcare and 40% could not afford an unexpected $400 expense.
> 
> In the richest country in history 40 million people were poor, half of all workers lived paycheck to paycheck, and 12% of the population had experienced food insecurity at some point during the preceding year.
> 
> ...


this  so  bs    the  crash  of  29  happened  due  to  massive  borrowing  to  pay  for  a  colossal  war  in  europe      when  they  couldnt  pay  the  banks  banks  went  under


----------



## dblack (Nov 24, 2021)

themirrorthief said:


> broke  people  have  no  freedom


You're confusing freedom with empowerment.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 24, 2021)

dblack said:


> Shilling for socialism is a real job. Just ask georgephillip.



He did it his entire life, still has nothing.


----------



## Flopper (Nov 25, 2021)

dblack said:


> I don't get this comment. I hear it a lot, and I guess people think it comes off as wise or moderate. But it's kind of meaningless. Immortality has never been "successfully implemented" either. Does that mean should stop trying to live longer? The question is whether we should aim for Capitalism or Socialism? Which do you want more of? Which do you want less of?
> 
> 
> That's another phrase that's become popular with socialists in recent years: "unfettered capitalism". What is that supposed to mean? Do you mean unrestricted trade? Or do you mean lawlessness? They're different. Capitalism can't exist in a state of lawlessness.


Unfettered capitalism is capitalism with no restraints, no tariffs, no laws that would restrain business,  no taxes on business, no protection for workers and no protection for consumers. Essentially businesses in an environment of unfettered capitalisms is free to pursue it's overriding goal, maximizing profits without interference.   It is theatrical and can not exist in an organized society.    All capitalism today is regulated.  If done property, society get's the best all world, high productivity, and a civil society.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 25, 2021)

elektra said:


> Moron, is the only response to your attention seeking


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 25, 2021)

task0778 said:


> The difference is that in reality a capitalistic economy creates far more wealth than any other model or theory. You are in effect bitching about the fact that the benefits of capitalism far outweigh the alternatives.


For whom?

Capitalism tells you that you are entitled to as great a share of the world's resources as your money can buy regardless of the cost that inflicts on others. 

For example, Americans are four percent of the global population who profit immensely from warfare waged in their names on the opposite side of the planet. Those crimes result in the killing, maiming, and displacement of millions of innocent civilians in places like Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq (and Africa).

Capitalism has always been a deadly business, and today it threatens human civilization with extinction if it isn't exterminated first.

Within the US all the wealth creation you correctly attribute to capitalism is undone by the miserable job it does of distributing the wealth among all Americans.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 25, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> For whom?
> 
> Capitalism tells you that you are entitled to as great a share of the world's resources as your money can buy regardless of the cost that inflicts on others.
> 
> ...


How did Americans benefit from Afghanistan, Iraq or Vietnam?


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 25, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf
> 
> "Capitalism and democracy follow different logics: unequally distributed property rights on the one hand, equal civic and political rights on the other; profit oriented trade within capitalism in contrast to the search for the common good within democracy; debate, compromise and majority decision-making within democratic politics versus hierarchical decision-making by managers and capital owners.
> 
> ...


Democracy is rule by the dumbest 51% of the people.  What makes you believe majority vote is a good way to design a car?  It obviously isn't.  There is no technical innovation that resulted from a majority vote. Economic democracy is the dumbest idea ever concieved.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 25, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Capitalism tells you that you are entitled to as great a share of the world's resources as your money can buy regardless of the cost that inflicts on others.



Capitalism says they don't have to sell to me.


----------



## tahuyaman (Nov 25, 2021)

Capitalism is NOT Democratic​

It’s not Democratic, but it is democratic.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Add to that Panama, Grenada, Nicaragua, Vietnam, etc.


*The burden of the white man just gets heavier and heavier:*




"The prevalence of overt racism, notably John Fiske's conception of 'Anglo-Saxon' racial superiority and Josiah Strong's call to 'civilize and Christianize,' – were manifestations of a growing Social Darwinism and racism in some schools of American political thought."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_imperialism#1800s%E2%80%931900s:_New_Imperialism_and_%22The_White_Man's_Burden%22


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Good point, in that it seem to me that the main violence comes from the police, not just shooting innocents, but the illegal War on Drugs, asset forfeiture, mandated sentencing, etc.


I think the monopoly of violence in the US is definitely more concerned with street crime as opposed to white-collar oligarchic misbehavior even though the latter is far more destructive to society.




Organized (White Collar?) Crime Defining the concept: The term “white collar crime” coined by Sutherland (1939) Significant because it moved the field. -  ppt download


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 25, 2021)

dblack said:


> The leaders we elect control the monopoly of violence. Do you have a point?


The leaders we currently elect serve US corporate oligarchs, not the majority.

Do you have a solution?


----------



## themirrorthief (Nov 25, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The Business Roundtable, MiBiz and the free-market lie
> 
> 
> 
> ...


socialism  and  communism  always  fail    when  big  brother takes  your paycheck  and  re  distributes  it    its  only  a matter  of  time   you  spend  your  time  at  work  drinking  and  sitting  on  your  ass  cause working  hard  will  get  you  NOWHERE


----------



## themirrorthief (Nov 25, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The leaders we currently elect serve US corporate oligarchs, not the majority.
> 
> Do you have a solution?


THE  WEALTHY  always  control  everything  that  is  never  going  to  change  money  is  power  communism  just  increases  the  poor  and  POWERLESS


----------



## themirrorthief (Nov 25, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The leaders we currently elect serve US corporate oligarchs, not the majority.
> 
> Do you have a solution?


MOVE  TO  SOMALIA


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 25, 2021)

dblack said:


> Giving government even more control over our money would be a terrible mistake.


If government began making loans to consumers/small businesses at this rate of interest, how terrible would that be?




Why the Fed Lowered Interest Rates Again (Published 2019)


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 25, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *The burden of the white man just gets heavier and heavier:*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Social Darwinism is an idea promoted by progressives like Woodrow Wilson and Margret Sanger.  birth control was part of Sanger's plan to keep blacks from reproducing.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 25, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The leaders we currently elect serve US corporate oligarchs, not the majority.
> 
> Do you have a solution?


My solution for you is to send you to a reeducation camp.


----------



## jc456 (Nov 25, 2021)

Name a place socialism works?

also, what’s your issue with capitalism?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 25, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> If government began making loans to consumers/small businesses at this rate of interest, how terrible would that be?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*If government began making loans to consumers/small businesses at this rate of interest, how terrible would that be?*

That's the rate at which banks lend reserves to each other.
Over night loans, how many consumers/small businesses need those?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 26, 2021)

dblack said:


> The Coming Democratization Of Currency
> 
> 
> Friedman felt that money had to be government-issued and its supply managed by a central bank.
> ...


*Friedman also believed one person-one vote distorted markets, and he vastly preferred the latter:*

The End of Friedmanomics

"All of which makes a contemporary reading of Friedman’s Cape Town lectures a harrowing experience. 

"His first speech was an unremitting diatribe against political democracy—an explicit rejection of, in Friedman’s words, 'one person, one vote,' delivered to a nation in which more than half of the population was disenfranchised by race. 

"Voting, Friedman declared, was inescapably corrupt, a distorted “market” in which “special interests” inevitably dictated the course of public life. Most voters were 'ill-informed.'"


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 26, 2021)

dblack said:


> "Oligarchs” is the left's "deep state" - a vaguely defined boogeyman to scare the children.


Oligarchs are private tyrants who corrupt government and virtually everything else they touch in spite of what their far-right libertarian apologists promote:




Inside the Koch Brothers' Toxic Empire


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 26, 2021)

dblack said:


> If you don't like my reply, don't insinuate I'm a racist. Pretty simple.


Even simpler: if you support private tyrannies based on white supremacy you are a racist and worse.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 26, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Oligarchs are private tyrants who corrupt government and virtually everything else they touch in spite of what their far-right libertarian apologists promote:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Politicians are the ones who take bribes and "distort the market."

How is a wealth person a "tyrant."  He can't legally shoot anyone.  Politicians can .


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 26, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Even simpler: if you support private tyrannies based on white supremacy you are a racist and worse.


Where has he ever done that?


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 26, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Friedman also believed one person-one vote distorted markets, and he vastly preferred the latter:*
> 
> The End of Friedmanomics
> 
> ...


What's "harrowing" about the truth?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 26, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> That's what capitalism does, moron. That's what he meant.


What did Friedman's version of capitalism do to Chile, Rube?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 26, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> What you mean by it is organized plunder.


Plundering the poor: the role of the World Bank in the Third World - PubMed

"The World Bank, the most important so-called development assistance agency, annually dispenses billions of dollars to Third World governments, ostensibly to 'develop' their economics through a variety of loan projects. 

*"But even a superficial analysis reveals that the Bank is the perfect mechanism to help (i.e., subsidize) the large transnational corporations from the industrial countries to expand their industrial, commercial, and financial activities in the Third World*, at the expense of the latter and particularly at the expense of the rural and urban proletariat."


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 26, 2021)

Mac-7 said:


> China
> 
> But that does not mean a military invasion
> 
> China has many ways to enslave weaker foreign countries


*Like what?

How many are as effective as the World Bank?*

Poverty crisis in the Third World: the contradictions of World Bank policy - PubMed

"Politicians, the mainstream media, and orthodox social science have all been telling us of a final victory of capitalism over socialism, suggesting that capitalism is the only viable option for solving the world's problems. 

"Yet, the global capitalist system is itself entering the third decade of a profound structural crisis, the costs of which have been borne largely by the exploited and oppressed peoples of the underdeveloped periphery."


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 26, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> What did Friedman's version of capitalism do to Chile, Rube?



Gave Chile the strongest economy in South America.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 26, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Plundering the poor: the role of the World Bank in the Third World - PubMed
> 
> "The World Bank, the most important so-called development assistance agency, annually dispenses billions of dollars to Third World governments, ostensibly to 'develop' their economics through a variety of loan projects.
> 
> *"But even a superficial analysis reveals that the Bank is the perfect mechanism to help (i.e., subsidize) the large transnational corporations from the industrial countries to expand their industrial, commercial, and financial activities in the Third World*, at the expense of the latter and particularly at the expense of the rural and urban proletariat."



That's the last thing the Third World needs; industrial, commercial, and financial activities.


----------



## Flopper (Nov 26, 2021)

jc456 said:


> Name a place socialism works?
> 
> also, what’s your issue with capitalism?


Socialism does not work without capitalism just a capitalisms does work without socialism.  The two countries that are the most socialist are Cuba and North Korea which are both pretty crappy places to live.  Somalia when it was under the control of pirates and war lords was a near pure example capitalism free to operate without interference.  Again, a pretty crappy place to live.


----------



## jc456 (Nov 26, 2021)

Flopper said:


> Socialism does not work without capitalism just a capitalisms does work without socialism.  The two countries that are the most socialist are Cuba and North Korea which are both pretty crappy places to live.  Somalia when it was under the control of pirates and war lords was a near pure example capitalism free to operate without interference.  Again, a pretty crappy place to live.


And don’t work! Isolationists


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 26, 2021)

Flopper said:


> Socialism does not work without capitalism just a capitalisms does work without socialism.  The two countries that are the most socialist are Cuba and North Korea which are both pretty crappy places to live.  Somalia when it was under the control of pirates and war lords was a near pure example capitalism free to operate without interference.  Again, a pretty crappy place to live.



Why would you conflate a kleptocracy with pure capitalism?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 26, 2021)

Mac-7 said:


> It doesent


The US military has killed millions of innocent civilians on the opposite side of the planet since 1945.
Can you name another country whose record compares to that?


----------



## jc456 (Nov 26, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The US military has killed millions of innocent civilians on the opposite side of the planet since 1945.
> Can you name another country whose record compares to that?


Russia? China? Germany? India? You’re a stupid idiot


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 26, 2021)

dblack said:


> Of course not. They only bail out their buddies. That's now "free shit" government works.


*Government bailed out its wealthy donor class which is always how the "best government money can buy" can be expected to behave. The solution is to get money out of politics and not to shrink government.*

How the Supreme Court and the morbidly rich are ruining democracy in America

"In 1976, for the first time in America’s history, five conservatives on the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that rich people owning their own personal politicians was constitutionally protected because the money they were using to buy legislators and legislation was 'free speech.' 

*"The case was Buckley v. Valeo. 

"In 1978, SCOTUS extended that logic to corporations in First National Bank of Boston v. Bellotti."*


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 26, 2021)

Mac-7 said:


> The left denies it now, but starting as early as the clinton presidency great pressure was put on lenders to make risky loans on poor neighborhoods


*Except it was money chasing people in those poor neighborhoods not the other way around:*

Bill Black Pt 3/9 - The Best Way to Rob a Bank is to Own One

"*The weak, the meek, and the ignorant are our best targets.'* 

"Those are the words they put on paper to describe those folks. 

"So, that has meant that the quintessential victim, if you wanted a single face, that face would be of an elderly black woman. *That’s the quintessential victim of predation in the financial sphere."*


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 26, 2021)

Mac-7 said:


> Liberals pushed their favorite minority into situations that were over their heads snd sure to fail


"New Democrats" like Bill Clinton were never liberal, and they were pushed by their new best friends on Wall Street to deceive poor people (Latinx and Black) into massively overpaying for homes and interest rates that would never apply to normal (white) people under market rates. All the fraud was coming from lenders, not buyers.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 26, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Citing some commie "economist" doesn't support your case


Michael Hudson (economist) - Wikipedia

"Hudson graduated from the University of Chicago (BA, 1959) and New York University (MA, 1965, PhD, 1968) and worked as a balance of payments economist in Chase Manhattan Bank (1964–1968). He was assistant professor of economics at the New School for Social Research (1969–1972) and worked for various governmental and non-governmental organizations as an economic consultant (1980s–1990s)."


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 26, 2021)

dblack said:


> Of course. It was all someone else's fault.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 26, 2021)

dblack said:


> So what?
> 
> I'll repeat this, since you either didn't understand it, or didn't read it:


Learn to read, Retard..

Secondary Securities Market


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 26, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Michael Hudson (economist) - Wikipedia
> 
> "Hudson graduated from the University of Chicago (BA, 1959) and New York University (MA, 1965, PhD, 1968) and worked as a balance of payments economist in Chase Manhattan Bank (1964–1968). He was assistant professor of economics at the New School for Social Research (1969–1972) and worked for various governmental and non-governmental organizations as an economic consultant (1980s–1990s)."


New School of social research - commie.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 26, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "New Democrats" like Bill Clinton were never liberal, and they were pushed by their new best friends on Wall Street to deceive poor people (Latinx and Black) into massively overpaying for homes and interest rates that would never apply to normal (white) people under market rates. All the fraud was coming from lenders, not buyers.


They paid the same as white people, moron.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 26, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The US military has killed millions of innocent civilians on the opposite side of the planet since 1945.
> Can you name another country whose record compares to that?


The USSR, for one.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 26, 2021)

Flopper said:


> Socialism does not work without capitalism just a capitalisms does work without socialism.  The two countries that are the most socialist are Cuba and North Korea which are both pretty crappy places to live.  Somalia when it was under the control of pirates and war lords was a near pure example capitalism free to operate without interference.  Again, a pretty crappy place to live.



Capaitalism works beautifully without socialism.  Can you provide an example where it didn't?


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 26, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Gave Chile the strongest economy in South America



Commies like George don't know the basic facts of history.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 26, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Plundering the poor: the role of the World Bank in the Third World - PubMed
> 
> "The World Bank, the most important so-called development assistance agency, annually dispenses billions of dollars to Third World governments, ostensibly to 'develop' their economics through a variety of loan projects.
> 
> *"But even a superficial analysis reveals that the Bank is the perfect mechanism to help (i.e., subsidize) the large transnational corporations from the industrial countries to expand their industrial, commercial, and financial activities in the Third World*, at the expense of the latter and particularly at the expense of the rural and urban proletariat."


So lets end the World Bank.  I'm perfectly OK with that.  You see, I don't gigantic multinational organizations are a good way to promote capitalism.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 26, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Michael Hudson (economist) - Wikipedia
> 
> "Hudson graduated from the University of Chicago (BA, 1959) and New York University (MA, 1965, PhD, 1968) and worked as a balance of payments economist in Chase Manhattan Bank (1964–1968). He was assistant professor of economics at the New School for Social Research (1969–1972) and worked for various governmental and non-governmental organizations as an economic consultant (1980s–1990s)."



_Hudson identifies himself as a Marxist economist, but his interpretation of Karl Marx is different from most other Marxists. Whilst other Marxists emphasize the contradiction of wage labor and capital as the core issue of today capitalist world, Hudson rejects that idea and believes parasitic forms of finance have warped the political economy of modern capitalism. Hudson points to Marx's view of capitalism as the historic force that tends to eliminate all forms of pre-capitalist rent seeking, i.e. land rent, monopoly rent and financial rent (usury). The original meaning of a free market as discussed by classical political economists was a market free from all forms of rent. The gist of classical political economy was to distinguish earned and unearned income (also known as rent or free lunch). He then argues that unlike Marx's optimistic expectation history did not go in that direction and today modern capitalism is dominated by rentier classes. The concept of the proletariat as a class for itself presupposes a rent-free society, saying that "wages have been going no where recently, I hope you've been making a killing on your house price!". The other form of rent is imperialist rent, flowing from underdeveloped countries to developed ones. All of these forces distort the political economy of the modern capitalism, pushing labour-capital contradiction to the background and bringing other issues to the foreground. This is as if instead of progress, history has regressed back to a neo-feudal system.

Although Hudson's views are unpopular amongst other Marxists and sometimes vehemently rejected by them, his views converge with later writings of Marx himself. Hudson points out that most Marxists never go beyond Capital, Volume I, where Marx assumes there is a rent-free market where all commodities are sold at their values. That is how Marx deduces the exploitative nature of capitalism and labour-capital dichotomy as its underlying contradiction, but in Capital, Volume II and Capital, Volume III he relaxes his assumptions and discovers other contradictions that are much closer to what can be observed in today's economic system. In Capital, Volume III, Marx discusses the tendency of productivity and supply to increase at a faster pace than the consumption power and demand. Marx also revised his earlier ideas as he studied and learned more about the asymmetric development of capitalism. This ultimately led him to soften his revolutionary tone[citation needed] as he realized how dominance of industrially advanced nations over underdeveloped nations blocks revolutionary tendencies among the working classes of dominating nations. On the other side, Marx clashed with Karl Schapper, suggesting that the idea of workers taking over the state power ends up in disaster because they are not ready to practice that power._


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 26, 2021)

georgephillip said:


>



Poor Russia, it's almost like their neighbors don't trust them.

I wonder why?


----------



## Mac-7 (Nov 26, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Like what?
> 
> How many are as effective as the World Bank?*
> 
> ...


Just to be clear, you are supporting what china is doing in africa and other poor countries?


----------



## Mac-7 (Nov 26, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The US military has killed millions of innocent civilians on the opposite side of the planet since 1945.
> Can you name another country whose record compares to that?


Thats simply not true

The US has been involved in wars where civilians died

But few of them were killed by the US military

And certainly not millions


----------



## Mac-7 (Nov 26, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Except it was money chasing people in those poor neighborhoods not the other way around:*
> 
> Bill Black Pt 3/9 - The Best Way to Rob a Bank is to Own One
> 
> ...


If you scratch around you can easily find some lefty that hates America as much as you do

And then you can quote them but I’m not buying it because I remember what happened at the time

Libs were pissin’ their pants to have more home loans in poor neighborhoods


----------



## Mac-7 (Nov 26, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> New Democrats" like Bill Clinton were never liberal,


Could be

George Bush was a poor excuse for a conservative but we elected him and are stuck with his legacy

That applies to libs and Bill Clinton too


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 27, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> South Korea was also "bombed into the Stone Age,"


When did that happen?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 27, 2021)

dblack said:


> That's not capitalism, dingleberry. That's corporatism - a kissin' cousin to socialism.


What commitment to individual equality and social justice have you noticed in US capitalism, Milton? The US economy has been governed by neoliberal capitalism since _Buckley v. Valeo_


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 27, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Everything you post is a flat-out lie. If socialism is so superior, it shouldn't matter what capitalist countries do. 200


Capitalist countries use industrial scale warfare to destroy any economic competition. You may be blind to the millions of innocent human beings who have been murdered, maimed, displaced, and enslaved by capitalism over the past few hundred years, but that's only because you're an intellectual and moral imbecile.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 27, 2021)

dblack said:


> Crony capitalism is the core of corporatism. see: Corporatism - Wikipedia


*Your link:*

"Corporatism is not government corruption in politics or the use of bribery by corporate interest groups. 

"The terms corporatocracy and corporatism are often confused due to their use of corporations as organs of the state.

*How does crony capitalism exist without government corruption in politics and the bribery of corporate interest groups?*

"Corporatism developed during the 1850s in response to the rise of classical liberalism and Marxism, as it advocated cooperation between the classes instead of class conflict. 

"Corporatism became one of the main tenets of fascism, and Benito Mussolini's fascist regime in Italy advocated the collective management of the economy by employers, workers, and state officials to reduce the marginalization of singular interests. 

*"Corporatism is a collectivist ideology where the corporates work together for a common interest.**[5]*"


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 27, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Capitalist countries use industrial scale warfare to destroy any economic competition. You may be blind to the millions of innocent human beings who have been murdered, maimed, displaced, and enslaved by capitalism over the past few hundred years, but that's only because you're an intellectual and moral imbecile.


You didn't address my point:  If socialism is so superior, then why should socialist nations care if capitalist nations embargo them?  The USA and Europe certainly didn't care if Cuba and the USSR embargoed them

So the USSR and NK didn't have industrial sized armies?

Innocent people get killed in all wars, nimrod.

What you can't seem to be absorb is the fact that capitalism didn't create war.  War is 10,000 years old.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 27, 2021)

airplanemechanic said:


> And why liberals love it. Popular vote would set the president every time. A few big cities would overrule the will of the majority of our nation.


*A majority of voters would decide who becomes POTUS regardless of where they live. If that scares you, move to Singapore.*

Agreement Among the States to Elect the President by National Popular Vote

"The National Popular Vote Interstate Compact will guarantee the Presidency to the candidate who receives the most popular votes across all 50 states and the District of Columbia. 

*"The Compact ensures that every vote, in every state, will matter in every presidential election. *

"The Compact is a state-based approach that preserves the Electoral College, state control of elections, and the power of the states to control how the President is elected."


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 27, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> When did that happen?


The Korean war, nimrod.  You do know that North Korea overan almost the entire peninsula before NATO came to SK's aid, don't you?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 27, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Who are "my people?" It looks like you are calling me a NAZI.


You ARE a Nazi.


----------



## dblack (Nov 27, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Your link:*
> 
> "Corporatism is not government corruption in politics or the use of bribery by corporate interest groups.
> 
> ...


*Why do you ask questions which deliberately misconstrue the topic?*

Or are you actually just that confused? It's like points and arguments just bounce off and you pull another meme out of your grab bag.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 27, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> You ARE a Nazi.


You don't know what a NAZI is, moron.   It's not a synonym for 'Republican.'  In fact, precisely the opposite is the case.  It's a synonym for Democrat


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 27, 2021)

dblack said:


> *Why do you ask questions which deliberately misconstrue the topic?*
> 
> Or are you actually just that confused? It's like points and arguments just bounce off and you pull another meme out of your grab bag.


He can't address your point with facts and logic, so he addresses some other point.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 27, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Capitalist countries use industrial scale warfare to destroy any economic competition.



Is that how we beat the USSR?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 27, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Because communism sucks.
> Because communists are stupid







What Is Conservatism and What Is Wrong with It?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 27, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> How's pharma working out in Cuba?


*In ways greedy pigs like you will never understand, Bronto.*

How Cuba's Medicine Crisis is Playing Out - Havana Times

*"HAVANA TIMES *– Lisi Solis is the admin of a medicine exchange group on WhatsApp. 

"She created it in May 2020, when medicine shortages in Cuba were already clear.

"'The group’s regulations are clear: no buying and selling and no hoarding,' she says. 'Here, people swap – or donate – the medicines they have.'"


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 27, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *In ways greedy pigs like you will never understand, Bronto.*
> 
> How Cuba's Medicine Crisis is Playing Out - Havana Times
> 
> ...



*In ways greedy pigs like you will never understand, Bronto.*

You can tell me, gusano.

*"She created it in May 2020, when medicine shortages in Cuba were already clear.*

Medicine shortages, after 60 years of a communist worker's paradise? LOL!


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 27, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> ust what we need, a Greek commie to lecture American capitalism about debt.







Average U.S. Consumer Debt Reaches New Record in 2020


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 27, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Average U.S. Consumer Debt Reaches New Record in 2020



And?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 27, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> What Is Conservatism and What Is Wrong with It?



Philip Agre sounds like a whiney twat, friend of yours?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 27, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Everything Roosevelt did only made the recession last longer. Like preventing employers from lowering wages. That keeps unemployment high. The "priming the pump" theory is Voo Doo. It has never worked.


New Deal work programs put millions of people back to work when capitalism could not do so. WWII "primed the pump" sufficiently to end the Republican Great Depression.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 27, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> military rearmaments" is not the free market. It's crony capitalism, moron.


Military rearmaments IS capitalism, Rube, along with money laundering, wage slavery, and financial fraud.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 27, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Owners get to control their stuff.
> Whiners like you get to whine about it.


Your heroes?




https://account.kansascity.com/paywall/subscriber-only?resume=243733447&intcid=ab_archive


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 27, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Your heroes?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nope. 
Would you like to whine about it more?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 27, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> You didn't have an equal opportunity to own property?
> You didn't have equal access to the banking system?


Why would anyone need to own property?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 27, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> I buy goods and services with a portion of my stock sales.


What labor did you perform to earn your stock sales, Parasite?


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 27, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> New Deal work programs put millions of people back to work when capitalism could not do so. WWII "primed the pump" sufficiently to end the Republican Great Depression.


Nope.  The fact is the new deal didn't work and the economy only got back to normal when a Republican congress repealed all of FDRs New DEal progams and regulations.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 27, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> What labor did you perform to earn your stock sales, Parasite?


He earned the money to buy them, moron.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 27, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Why would anyone need to own property?


ROFL!   Where do you live?  Where do you work?


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 27, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Your heroes?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No one knows who the fuck they are, and you have to pay for a subscription to read the article.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 27, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Military rearmaments IS capitalism, Rube, along with money laundering, wage slavery, and financial fraud.


Wrong.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 27, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Why would anyone need to own property?



How's that working out for you?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 27, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> What labor did you perform to earn your stock sales, Parasite?



I labored to buy my stock. Jealous?


----------



## jc456 (Nov 28, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> What commitment to individual equality and social justice have you noticed in US capitalism, Milton? The US economy has been governed by neoliberal capitalism since _Buckley v. Valeo_


Equality can’t ever work, even the pilgrims learned that lesson!!! You’re just an idiot!


----------



## jc456 (Nov 28, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Why would anyone need to own property?


To survive? Again, even the pilgrims figured out your nonsense doesn’t work. Shows how stupid you are. You’ve had history to teach you and you haven’t figured out the flaw!


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 28, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Ummmm....the borrowers lied about their income. Idiot.


*Not even close, Trump.*

Bill Black: Lenders’ Lies about Liar’s Loans and “Rigorous Underwriting” | naked capitalism

"The definition of liar’s loan is that *the lender does not verify the borrower’s income *(and more extreme liar’s loans do not verify the borrower’s job or assets).  

"The CEO causes the lender to make liar’s loans for the purpose of inflating the borrower’s reported income, which makes it possible for the lender to make more and larger loans, which enriches the CEO."


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 28, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Not even close, Trump.*
> 
> Bill Black: Lenders’ Lies about Liar’s Loans and “Rigorous Underwriting” | naked capitalism
> 
> ...



_"The definition of liar’s loan is that *the lender does not verify the borrower’s income *(and more extreme liar’s loans do not verify the borrower’s job or assets)._

When they don't verify your income, you can lie about your income......like I said, idiot.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 28, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> The lenders are the victims, dumbass. The banks lost money on those loans. They only made them so they could meet their government quotas.


*The lenders failed to verity income and, in some cases, employment. It was a scam conceived to fatten CEO (and shareholder) compensation by privatizing (criminal) profits and socializing losses. *

Bill Black: Lenders’ Lies about Liar’s Loans and “Rigorous Underwriting” | naked capitalism

"The definition of liar’s loan is that the lender does not verify the borrower’s income (and more extreme liar’s loans do not verify the borrower’s job or assets).  
"*The CEO causes the lender to make liar’s loans for the purpose of inflating the borrower’s reported income, which makes it possible for the lender to make more and larger loans, which enriches the CEO.*

"The failure to verify the borrower’s income produces massive fraud and what economists call 'adverse selection.'  

"As a result, at the time the loans are made, they represent in economic reality a loss.  The loans have a “negative expected value” at the time they are made.  

"This exemplifies the great truth that the _WSJ _cannot seem to comprehend – *underwriting appears to the ignorant to be a cost center for a home lender, but it is actually an honest bank’s most important profit center."*


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 28, 2021)

kaz said:


> Whoa, what's that smell? OMG, it really reeks. Sniff, sniff. OMG, it's you! Wow that stinks, you're just making yourshit up again. OMG it really smells.
> 
> The top 1% earn about 20% of the income and they pay almost 50% of the taxes. But hey, you have more data you just made up ...


Here's my link, Trump.

https://www.google.com/search?q=top...i22i29i30l2.8815j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Where's yours?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 28, 2021)

kaz said:


> And now you make up that Americans are poor! Sure we are, speed racer. How stupid are you? Seriously, how stupid?


Are you truly ignorant of current levels of debt among Americans, Asshole?
How many middle class jobs have been outsourced since 1980?
Maybe you should turn off your tv and read more?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 28, 2021)

kaz said:


> And George the mega racist makes up more shit again. Racists always do







Tired of winning?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 28, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Here's my link, Trump.
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?q=top...i22i29i30l2.8815j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
> 
> Where's yours?



You think their effective tax rate refutes kaz's claim?

Damn, you're stupid.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 28, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> You have said it countless times, douchebag. Socialism has never existed without capitalism to suck off of, or mass starvation.


Socialism is the next stage in human economic evolution.
Just as feudalism followed slavery and capitalism grew from feudalism, socialism will one day replace capitalism.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 28, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Since the inception of capitalism.


Capitalism has never existed without war and debt.




Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 28, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> He was investigated for 2 1/2 years, and they found nothing. They couldn't find a single law he violated.


Because they didn't have his taxes and a lifelong Republican fixer did most of the "investigation."


----------



## jc456 (Nov 28, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Why would anyone need to own property?


Why are there countries?


----------



## jc456 (Nov 28, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Because they didn't have his taxes and a lifelong Republican fixer did most of the "investigation."


So Reagan was a Democrat ?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 28, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Trump provides opportunity, moron. He provides a lot more of it than the government, and he does it out of his own pocket.


Prove it.


----------



## jc456 (Nov 28, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Prove it.


Didn’t take a salary while in office


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 28, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> I wouldn't sacrifice for the greater good unless someone held a gun on me. In fact, the government holds a gun on me every time I pay taxes.


It's a shame the government hasn't pulled the trigger...yet.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 28, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Capitalism has never existed without war and debt.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So what?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 28, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Nope. Does moving capital income and employee income to the other side of the formula
> change the size of either number?


Does it give employees a greater share of revenue?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 28, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Does it give employees a greater share of revenue?



Moving a term to the other side of the equation doesn't change its size.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 28, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> So his father was an employee of an insurance company?


*So he made money from Wall Street crashing the global economy which sounds a little like economic royalty, to me.*

Sam Walton - Wikipedia

"Thomas Walton went into farm mortgaging. He worked for his brother's Walton Mortgage Company, which was an agent for Metropolitan Life Insurance,[4][5]* where he foreclosed on farms during the Great Depression."*


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 28, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Why would a moron like you have a clue?


Only a clueless MAGA bitch would ask that question


----------



## jc456 (Nov 28, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> It's a shame the government hasn't pulled the trigger...yet.


Classless


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 28, 2021)

struth said:


> yeah it’s the Is fault not Kim Sung


*Kim would have never been in the running for president of a united Korea in 1945*

People's Republic of Korea - Wikipedia

"When Soviet troops entered Pyongyang on 24 August 1945, they found a local People's Committee established there, led by veteran Christian nationalist Cho Man-sik.[6]: p.54–57  

"Unlike their American counterparts, the Soviet authorities recognized and worked with the People's Committees[7]: pp.105–107 [8]: p.227–228  

*"By some accounts, Cho Man-sik was the Soviet government's first choice to lead North Korea.[9"*


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 28, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> North Korea invaded South Korea, dumbass. Here's a good solution to the problem: don't invade your neighbors.


In 1950, Trump.
That's five years after the US prevented free elections from one end of the Korean peninsula to the other.


----------



## struth (Nov 28, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Kim would have never been in the running for president of a united Korea in 1945*
> 
> People's Republic of Korea - Wikipedia
> 
> ...


yeah then the Socialist made his disappear when he opposed their plans…and Kim was made president after their invasion 

read the next paragraph of your link


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 28, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> In 1950, Trump.


Could you translate that into English.



georgephillip said:


> That's five years after the US prevented free elections from one end of the Korean peninsula to the other.


There was hardly anything "free" about them


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 28, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Kim would have never been in the running for president of a united Korea in 1945*
> 
> People's Republic of Korea - Wikipedia
> 
> ...


A "people's committee" - a gang of communists, in other words.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 28, 2021)

struth said:


> yes the Japanese lost the war, and their empire…thank goodness those fascist lost


*The Axis lost WWII, but the fascists won.*

How the Nazis Won the War, by Noam Chomsky (Excerpted from Secrets, Lies, and Democracy)

"Operation Paper Clip, which involved the importation of large numbers of known Nazi war criminals, rocket scientists, camp guards, etc."


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 28, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *The Axis lost WWII, but the fascists won.*
> 
> How the Nazis Won the War, by Noam Chomsky (Excerpted from Secrets, Lies, and Democracy)
> 
> "Operation Paper Clip, which involved the importation of large numbers of known Nazi war criminals, rocket scientists, camp guards, etc."


Only a certified moron would accept anything Chomsky has to say.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 28, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Not even close, Trump.*
> 
> Bill Black: Lenders’ Lies about Liar’s Loans and “Rigorous Underwriting” | naked capitalism
> 
> ...


How does going bankrupt enrich the CEO?  Banks allowed so-called "liar" loans because the regulators wouldn't allow mergers unless a bank met their "diversity" requirements, which meant they had to have so many mortgages to black people on their books.  The feds facilitated this loans by rating them as safe.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 28, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Only a clueless MAGA bitch would ask that question



There is no question, you are a moron.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 28, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> In 1950, Trump.
> That's five years after the US prevented free elections from one end of the Korean peninsula to the other.



Yup. Saved the south from the communists.
You still whining about that?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 28, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "By some accounts, Cho Man-sik was the Soviet government's first choice to lead North Korea.



Sounds like a cool dude.
What happened to him?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 28, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *The Axis lost WWII, but the fascists won.*
> 
> How the Nazis Won the War, by Noam Chomsky (Excerpted from Secrets, Lies, and Democracy)
> 
> "Operation Paper Clip, which involved the importation of large numbers of known Nazi war criminals, rocket scientists, camp guards, etc."



Is Chomsky still mad that the Berlin Wall fell?
Still whining about the failure of communism?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 28, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> The feds facilitated this loans by rating them as safe.



The feds weren't rating the shitty loans.
They did force Fannie and Freddie to buy hundreds of billions worth of shitty loans.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 28, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> The feds weren't rating the shitty loans.
> They did force Fannie and Freddie to buy hundreds of billions worth of shitty loans.


Aren't the rating agencies also part of the government?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 28, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Aren't the rating agencies also part of the government?



No.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 28, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Aren't the rating agencies also part of the government?


----------



## kaz (Nov 29, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Here's my link, Trump.
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?q=top...i22i29i30l2.8815j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
> 
> Where's yours?



You just have a link to a google search.   I'm curious how you're going to  prove IRS statistics wrong, but go for it.    Provide an actual link showing that's wrong, not a link to a list of links where I'm supposed to find out what you're talking about


----------



## kaz (Nov 29, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Are you truly ignorant of current levels of debt among Americans, Asshole?
> How many middle class jobs have been outsourced since 1980?
> Maybe you should turn off your tv and read more?



None of that supports your moronic assertion that Americans are poor, moron.  If you're at the poverty level in the US, you're in the top 10% of the world's population.    

If you want to change the point, then say that.   You clearly didn't do it


----------



## kaz (Nov 29, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Tired of winning?



I'd ask which one is you, but you're the one in the white mask, aren't you?   Be honest.

Here's another picture for you, racist.


----------



## kaz (Nov 29, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Tired of winning?



Notice yet again the fake Marxist defends the Democrats.   You can't let your addiction go and say fuck yeah, the Democrats are racist.  You're a Marxist and aren't going to protect them.  Nope, you can't say that because every time Democrats are under attack, you're there to defend them proving how fake you're not a Democrat you're a Marxist ideology is


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 29, 2021)

kaz said:


> You just have a link to a google search.   I'm curious how you're going to  prove IRS statistics wrong, but go for it.    Provide an actual link showing that's wrong, not a link to a list of links where I'm supposed to find out what you're talking about


Progs always resort to these weasels when they can't prove their claims.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 29, 2021)

BackAgain said:


> It looks like he’s here to try to smack the stupid out of you. Sadly, it doesn’t appear to be working.


You are a likely authority on stupidity.
Why would I care what you "think"?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 29, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Smacking the shit out of you, silly twat.


How would a spineless sissy like you manage that?


----------



## BackAgain (Nov 29, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> You are a likely authority on stupidity.
> Why would I care what you "think"?


I’m not really an “authority” on you. But your level of stupid is abundantly clear. 

i am completely indifferent to what you do or don’t care about, you worthless slug.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 29, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *Not stupid enough to believe rich people should control government.*
> 
> Who should control it, Bernie and AOC?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 29, 2021)

kaz said:


> Notice yet again the fake Marxist defends the Democrats. You can't let your addiction go and say fuck yeah, the Democrats are racist.


C*onservatives of both political parties are more likely to be racists when compared to those who aren't afraid to compete on level, heavily regulated playing fields. 

The fact that you are blind to this simply confirms the conservative tendency to support aristocracy in all its forms.*

What Is Conservatism and What Is Wrong with It?

"Q: What is conservatism?
A: *Conservatism is the domination of society by an aristocracy*.

"Q: What is wrong with conservatism?
A: Conservatism is incompatible with democracy, prosperity, and civilization in general. *It is a destructive system of inequality and prejudice that is founded on deception and has no place in the modern world."*


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 29, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How would a spineless sissy like you manage that?



With one hand tied behind my back.


----------



## kaz (Nov 29, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> C*onservatives of both political parties are more likely to be racists when compared to those who aren't afraid to compete on level, heavily regulated playing fields.
> 
> The fact that you are blind to this simply confirms the conservative tendency to support aristocracy in all its forms.*
> 
> ...



Marxist propaganda gone wild ...


----------



## dblack (Nov 29, 2021)

kaz said:


> Marxist propaganda gone wild ...


We need to make that the title of the thread.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 30, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Yeah, those gulags were awesome!!!


Ranking: most prisoners per capita by country 2021 | Statista


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 30, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> How did that make African countries adopt their socialist policies?


Which socialist countries invaded Africa?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 30, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> So where has this fantasy ever existed?


Everywhere before the rich came into existence.
Your inability to imagine a world where the state isn't necessary to enforce order merely shows your lack of imagination and knowledge. For thousands of years conservatives argued that no society could exist without human slavery. You make the same mistake today when you claim no society can ever exist without the state or money.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 30, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Again, you're telling us that communism is a triangle with four sides. Your fantasy doesn't exist. It never has, and it never will.


"Engels noted that in a socialist system the primary function of public institutions will shift from being about the creation of laws and the control of people into a technical role as an administrator of technical production processes, with a decrease in the scope of traditional politics as scientific administration overtakes the role of political decision-making.[20] 

"Communist society is characterized by democratic processes, not merely in the sense of electoral democracy, but in the broader sense of open and collaborative social and workplace environments."

Communist society - Wikipedia


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 30, 2021)

danielpalos said:


> From my perspective, it may require better use of AI because this seems to be part of the dilemma:


AI could lead to a world where machines eliminate the need for humanity to work; however, that will require those who "own" the means of production to share the surplus:


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 30, 2021)

dblack said:


> The sad thing is, I suspect this quote seems relatively innocuous to most liberals, when in fact it should scare the shit out them


Only those who believe markets produce the right price are frightened by an economic system that doesn't privatize profit by socializing cost. The price of carbon-based energy is "right" in that it reflects what consumers will pay and what produces can supply IF you leave out the fact that carbon is destroying a livable planet. Markets can not price this problem. Only governments can and democratic governments do it best.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Ranking: most prisoners per capita by country 2021 | Statista



They still have gulags in 2021?

Commies are the worst!!!


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Which socialist countries invaded Africa?











						Cuban intervention in Angola - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Which socialist countries invaded Africa?


The USSR supplied arms to communist rebels, shit for brains:  Mozambique, Angola, South Africa, Congo, Ethiopia, Guinea, Morocco
​


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Only those who believe markets produce the right price are frightened by an economic system that doesn't privatize profit by socializing cost. The price of carbon-based energy is "right" in that it reflects what consumers will pay and what produces can supply IF you leave out the fact that carbon is destroying a livable planet. Markets can not price this problem. Only governments can and democratic governments do it best.


Carbon is not destroying our planet.  That's a commie myth.


----------



## dblack (Nov 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Only those who believe markets produce the right price ...


And what, pray tell, is the "right price" in your view?

And, to the quote you were responding to - why is it so important that every. fucking. thing. be "run democratically"?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 30, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> How well do primary markets work if you don't have a strong secondary market?


With less exploitation of productive labor.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 30, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *"The remaining 99% is speculation – people buying and selling existing stock in the aftermarket of equity.*
> 
> That's awful!!! People freely buying and selling existing stocks.
> There ought to be a law against that, eh comrade?


The Stock Market Is Not the Economy


----------



## 22lcidw (Nov 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Only those who believe markets produce the right price are frightened by an economic system that doesn't privatize profit by socializing cost. The price of carbon-based energy is "right" in that it reflects what consumers will pay and what produces can supply IF you leave out the fact that carbon is destroying a livable planet. Markets can not price this problem. Only governments can and democratic governments do it best.


America is a tapestry of multi decade eras. One intertwining with another. Give and take. The Constitution of the United States says nothing about Capitalism, Socialism, Communism and other ways. It says Freedom. And we are failing.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 30, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Freeloader? DURR. How many jobs did he create?
> Is he selling a product that people are freely buying? That bastard!!!


2% of Elon Musk's wealth could help solve world hunger, says director of UN food scarcity organization


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 30, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Your first mistake: Capitalists are not the same as Feudal landlords. The later obtained their land by grant from the king. Capitalists have to obtain their land or capital by buying it.


Both systems are exploitative since they divide society into two opposing factions: a small minority of lords or owners that rule over a much larger majority of productive workers.


----------



## dblack (Nov 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Both systems are exploitative since they divide society into two opposing factions: a small minority of lords or owners that rule over a much larger majority of productive workers.


The factions are in your mind, or rather Marx's mind. That was his principal mistake: it's NOT all about "class".


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Both systems are exploitative since they divide society into two opposing factions: a small minority of lords or owners that rule over a much larger majority of productive workers.


Wrong.   That's like saying math classes divide society into two opposing factions: those who can do math and those who can't.

That argument is meaningless.  Anyone who wants to own property under capitalism can do so by buying property.  That simple fact blows your claims out of the water.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> 2% of Elon Musk's wealth could help solve world hunger, says director of UN food scarcity organization


He already admitted he lied about that.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> With less exploitation of productive labor.


The term "exploitation" is meaningless.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 30, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Who is the "greedy freeloader," Musk? How is he a freeloader?


"In 2007, Jeff Bezos, then a multibillionaire and now the world’s richest man, did not pay a penny in federal income taxes. He achieved the feat again in 2011. 

"In 2018, Tesla founder Elon Musk, the second-richest person in the world, also paid no federal income taxes."

The Secret IRS Files: Trove of Never-Before-Seen Records Reveal How the Wealthiest Avoid Income Tax


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 30, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> I'm well aware of that. How is that relevant to this discussion?


#1353


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 30, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> I prefer no government at all. Then there is no one to bribe.


Who or what controls the monopoly of violence?


----------



## dblack (Nov 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Who or what controls the monopoly of violence?


The idiots we elect. Some of them lust for power and riches. How do you imagine socialism would prevent them from gaining power?


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 30, 2021)

dblack said:


> .. wise to the propaganda you're disseminating.


What propaganda is that?


----------



## dblack (Nov 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> What propaganda is that?


Oh nothing. Must have been my imagination.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 30, 2021)

dblack said:


> don't want government to "run" society. Nor the economy. What you're advocating is totalitarian government. One where every goddamned thing is subject to your precious majority rule.


You don't want a majority of society to run government or the economy? Would you prefer billionaires and their state-house lackies perform those tasks?





ALEC Inspires Lawmakers to File Anti-Critical Race Theory Bills - EXPOSEDbyCMD


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Who or what controls the monopoly of violence?


Government controls the monopoly on the use of force.  That's pretty much the definition of government, dumbass.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> You don't want a majority of society to run government or the economy? Would you prefer billionaires and their state-house lackies perform those tasks?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How about no one runs our society?  That's called freedom.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> With less exploitation of productive labor.



How do secondary markets in stocks, for instance, exploit productive labor. Be specific.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The Stock Market Is Not the Economy



I've never claimed the stock market is the economy. Not even once.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> 2% of Elon Musk's wealth could help solve world hunger, says director of UN food scarcity organization



Horribly, tremendously bad math. David Beasley should be ashamed.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Nov 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "In 2007, Jeff Bezos, then a multibillionaire and now the world’s richest man, did not pay a penny in federal income taxes. He achieved the feat again in 2011.



If he had no income in 2007 or 2011, how much income tax should he have paid?
Show your math.


----------



## dblack (Nov 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> You don't want a majority of society to run government or the economy.


The government should be run democratically. But Democratic socialists want more - way more. They think that, in your words, "both the economy and society should be run democratically". And I absolutely oppose that. In most cases, there's no need for majority rule, no need to force the preferences of the majority on everyone else.



georgephillip said:


> Would you prefer billionaires and their state-house lackies perform those tasks?


Nope. We need to stop government from interfering in the economy period.


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 30, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> So? Trump never promised to "fundamentally change America" Only commies make such a promise.


*Did he lie about that too?*

"Trump’s policy record included major changes at home and abroad. 

*"He achieved a string of long-sought conservative victories domestically, including the biggest corporate tax cuts on record, the elimination of scores of environmental regulations and a reshaping of the federal judiciary. *

How America Changed During Trump’s Presidency

"In the international arena, he imposed tough new immigration restrictions, withdrew from several multilateral agreements, forged closer ties with Israel and launched a tit-for-tat trade dispute with China as part of a wider effort to address what he saw as glaring imbalances in America’s economic relationship with other countries."


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 30, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> What "child" did Jefferson rape?


https://www.phillytrib.com/commenta...cle_f841b673-50ac-5510-8330-20d3bac6f974.html


----------



## georgephillip (Nov 30, 2021)

dblack said:


> Fuck you, twat.


*How did your hero treat Haiti, Cracker?*




https://www.phillytrib.com/commenta...cle_f841b673-50ac-5510-8330-20d3bac6f974.html

"But he wasn’t merely a domestic racist. 

"He was an international racist, too. 

"As Secretary of State in 1795, he gave $40,000 and one thousand firearms to colonial French slaveholders in Haiti in an attempt to defeat Toussaint L’Ouverture’s slave rebellion. 

"As President, he supported French plans to resume power, lent France $300,000 '*for relief of whites on the island,*' and in 1804 refused to recognize Haiti as a sovereign republic after its military victory. 

"Two years later, he imposed a trade embargo."

*"Along with being a perverted, slave-owning, legislative, domestic, and international racist, Jefferson was a blatantly ignorant racist..."*


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Did he lie about that too?*
> 
> "Trump’s policy record included major changes at home and abroad.
> 
> ...


What's your point?  Are you claiming he did promise to fundamentally change America?


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *How did your hero treat Haiti, Cracker?*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Can you name anyone before 1800 who wasn't a racist?


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> https://www.phillytrib.com/commenta...cle_f841b673-50ac-5510-8330-20d3bac6f974.html


That's total bullshit.  For one thing, in those days 14 years old was of legal age. 

Furthermore, you have no idea whether Jefferson raped her.  I presume you base that claim on a theory of statutory rape., which is bullshit.

The author of your article is clearly a kook.


----------



## themirrorthief (Nov 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The leaders we currently elect serve US corporate oligarchs, not the majority.
> 
> Do you have a solution?


the  rich  like  those  in  the  democrat  party  will  always  rule   get  used  to  it


----------



## Pilot1 (Nov 30, 2021)

Nostra said:


> The US isn't a Democracy, Dumbass.


Correct.  It is a Constitutional Representative REPUBLIC. Democracy is MOB RULE.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 1, 2021)

Flash said:


> Only if you a dumbass unproductive low life that don't have any marketable skills. Of course if you are one of those people then your whole life will be other people running your life.


If you are among the vast majority of productive workers toiling in a capitalist economy, you are one of those people whose entire working life will be controlled by other people.

There's a fundamental question here: who controls and benefits from the economy. 

Conservatives believe rich aristocrats deserve to decide what to produce, where to produce it, and, most importantly, how do distribute any profits. 

Those who aren't afraid to control their workplaces believe otherwise.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 1, 2021)

dblack said:


> Leaving the decision making to someone else is the bargain one strikes when signing up to be an "employee". It's not required.


It is required under the capitalist system just as the serf was required to work his lord's land for his entire life and slaves were destined to serve their masters. Socialism breaks that chain for those who aren't afraid of individual liberty coming to the workplace. Obviously, US Libertarians are more comfortable leaving the decision making to someone else.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 1, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> It is required under the capitalist system just as the serf was required to work his lord's land for his entire life and slaves were destined to serve their masters. Socialism breaks that chain for those who aren't afraid of individual liberty coming to the workplace. Obviously, US Libertarians are more comfortable leaving the decision making to someone else.


Wrong, NAZI.  Under socialism, you're still working for someone else.  Show me one socialist country where the majority of the workers aren't taking orders from someone else.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 1, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> If you are among the vast majority of productive workers toiling in a capitalist economy, you are one of those people whose entire working life will be controlled by other people.
> 
> There's a fundamental question here: who controls and benefits from the economy.
> 
> ...



*Conservatives believe rich aristocrats deserve to decide what to produce,*

Why would we let poor morons like you decide what to produce?

*most importantly, how do distribute any profits.*

Yes, owners get to decide what to do with profits.
Poor, stupid whiners like you don't get to decide.


----------



## Flash (Dec 1, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> If you are among the vast majority of productive workers toiling in a capitalist economy, you are one of those people whose entire working life will be controlled by other people.
> 
> There's a fundamental question here: who controls and benefits from the economy.
> 
> ...




I worked in a capitalist economy for 30 years.  Worked for a big corporations.

Had a really good living and a great retirement.

If you can't make money in a Capitalist economy then you are a sorry piece of shit and piss on you.

However, every year that money I earned by working hard is taken away from me by the filthy ass government and given away to the worthless welfare queens that support the elected officials that take the money away.  Like the asshole Negro voting block of the destructive Democrat Party.


----------



## Flash (Dec 1, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *Conservatives believe rich aristocrats deserve to decide what to produce,*
> 
> Why would we let poor morons like you decide what to produce?
> 
> ...



Exactly!

Socialism is driven by greed of unproductive sorry ass welfare queens that think they are owed a living simply because they are alive.


----------



## dblack (Dec 1, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> It is required under the capitalist system just as the serf was required to work his lord's land for his entire life and slaves were destined to serve their masters.


Nope. It's not. That's a lie.


georgephillip said:


> Socialism breaks that chain for those who aren't afraid of individual liberty coming to the workplace.


Another lie.


georgephillip said:


> Obviously, US Libertarians are more comfortable leaving the decision making to someone else.


And another. 3 for 3 - a perfect game!


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 1, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> That's a prescription for failure. When has anything smart been decided by majority vote?


The Founders and the Vote  | The Right to Vote  | Elections  | Classroom Materials at the Library of Congress  | Library of Congress

"The right of suffrage is a fundamental Article in Republican Constitutions. The regulation of it is, at the same time, a task of peculiar delicacy. Allow the right [to vote] exclusively to property [owners], and the rights of persons may be oppressed... . Extend it equally to all, and the rights of property [owners] ...may be overruled by a majority without property...."


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 1, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> What rights are those?


Their rights to an education, medical care, clean air and water. Any human right that runs afoul of the profit motive is subject to extinction.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 1, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The Founders and the Vote  | The Right to Vote  | Elections  | Classroom Materials at the Library of Congress  | Library of Congress
> 
> "The right of suffrage is a fundamental Article in Republican Constitutions. The regulation of it is, at the same time, a task of peculiar delicacy. Allow the right [to vote] exclusively to property [owners], and the rights of persons may be oppressed... . Extend it equally to all, and the rights of property [owners] ...may be overruled by a majority without property...."


Name a country that gave women the vote in 1789.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 1, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> You never saved/invested any money because.....racism? LOL!


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 1, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Their rights to an education, medical care, clean air and water. Any human right that runs afoul of the profit motive is subject to extinction.


There is no right to any of those.  You mean any "human right" that can only be implemented by initiating force against innocent people.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 1, 2021)

progressive hunter said:


> no such thing as racial inferiors,,


Would you have mentioned that fact to Hitler if you had the chance?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 1, 2021)

georgephillip said:


>



You never saved/invested any money because.....billionaires are pigs?

You taught them a lesson, eh comrade?


----------



## progressive hunter (Dec 1, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Would you have mentioned that fact to Hitler if you had the chance?


how can I mention something that doesnt exist,,


----------



## dblack (Dec 1, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> There is no right to any of those.  You mean any "human right" that can only be implemented by initiating force against innocent people.


In general, when liberals or maxists use the term "human right", they mean "free shit".


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 1, 2021)

dblack said:


> In general, when liberals or maxists use the term "human right", they mean "free shit".


Bingo!


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 1, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Is it? I'm not aware of any such thing prior to WW I


*So what?

How does your knowledge of economic history compare to Michael Hudson's?*

Germany's Choice | Michael Hudson

*"Imposing austerity on Germany after World War I*

"After World War I the U.S. Government deviated from what had been traditional European policy – forgiving military support costs among the victors.* U.S. officials demanded payment for the arms shipped to its Allies in the years before America entered the Great War in 1917. *

"The Allies turned to Germany for reparations to pay these debts. 

"Headed by John Maynard Keynes, British diplomats sought to clean their hands of responsibility for the consequences by promising that all the money they received from Germany would simply be forwarded to the U.S. Treasury."


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 1, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Prior to that conflict, it was traditional for allies to forgive the loans that helped win their victory.



Sounds super groovy!!

When was this tradition followed?

Post your 5 favorite examples.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 1, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Israel is treating them better than they deserve.


Your people?




‘Settler violence is part of Israel’s official policy,’ experts say — but ‘Washington Post’ buries that angle


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 1, 2021)

dblack said:


> Yet that wasn't really how Trump did it. He was as grass roots and populist as Bernie. Arguably moreso


*Really?
Why don't you regale me with that argument?
Start here:*

"While Trump raised less money than his Democratic rival, Hillary Clinton, he received free media attention valued at about $5 billion."

Summary data for Donald Trump, 2016 cycle


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 1, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Yet, you still worship democracy.


Democracy shouldn't reward those who spend the most money on their campaigns. Maybe it's a choice between democracy and private fortunes?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 1, 2021)

dblack said:


> But their vision of democracy has morphed into unlimited majority rule. They've pretty much abandoned the kind of liberal democracy our constitution describes.


*"Their" vision of democracy doesn't include private tyrants (and tyrannies) deciding how the state is to be governed:*




"The *Investment theory of party competition* is a political theory developed by Thomas Ferguson, Emeritus Professor of Political Science at the University of Massachusetts Boston. 

*"The theory focuses on how business elites, not voters, play the leading part in political systems."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investment_theory_of_party_competition*


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 1, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> The why doesn't Florida have the worst COVID statistics?


Why not?





COVID-19 Death Rates by State


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 1, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> So we're all getting wealthier. You're just envious of those who are getting wealthy faster.
> 
> Is that about right?


Not unless you think increasing levels of debt makes you wealthy.


----------



## dblack (Dec 1, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Really?
> Why don't you regale me with that argument?*


Because you're a douchebag propagandist. Also, I don't think you question is genuine.


----------



## dblack (Dec 1, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "Their" vision of democracy doesn't include private tyrants (and tyrannies) deciding how the state is to be governed:


Neither does mine, Mr. Strawman.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 1, 2021)

dblack said:


> They already do. Voluntarily and collaboratively. What you want is majority rule, right?


*Corporate money runs the US economy because they own the government.*

Corporate capitalism - Wikipedia

"In social science and economics, *corporate capitalism* is a capitalist marketplace characterized by the dominance of hierarchical and bureaucratic corporations."


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 1, 2021)

dblack said:


> Because I don't believe that.


You don't believe corporate managers and shareholders corrupt US political democracy?


----------



## dblack (Dec 1, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Corporate money runs the US economy because they own the government.


That's because government is for sale. When government meddles in the economy, business meddles in government. It's exactly the same dynamic as religion. Ambitious political leaders tried to takeover religion with government, the same way you want to takeover trade with government. It was a disaster. Marxists schemes will end the same way.


----------



## dblack (Dec 1, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> You don't believe corporate managers and shareholders corrupt US political democracy?


You lying piece of shit. That's not what you said. Here's your quote


> "why you believe corporate managers and corporate shareholders should continue to corrupt political democracy"


I don't believe that _anyone_ should "continue to corrupt political democracy".

You're fucking around playing head games. That's all marxist twats can do because they're selling a steaming pile of totalitarian horseshit.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 2, 2021)

dblack said:


> Capitalism has no "concerns". People do. And they all have different goals and priorities.


Capitalism and capitalists have only one concern: profits over need.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 2, 2021)

dblack said:


> Yep. It's vital that we remove government's power to devalue currency. Let's hope bitcoin works.


Better to expand democratic government and outlaw unlimited campaign contributions, tax corporations and rich individual parasites at rates they paid 70 years ago, and jail all libertarians.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 2, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> "Public stakeholders" is a prog term meaning people with no money at stake.


Public stakeholders include neighbors getting sick from living alongside cancer alley. 




One hoarse town: The 5 dirtiest cities you don't want to live in


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 2, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> t's easier to tax the rich people when they get paid by the corporation.


It's even easier for rich parasites (corporate and human) to shift the burden of taxation onto productive workers.




Biden’s tax plan is about tackling the class warfare of the US elite


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 2, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> How did those evil owners force you to work for them?


By bribing government for the "right" to "own" the means of production.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 2, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> How is abolishing government agencies "authoritarianism?" It's exactly the opposite.


David Koch was an authoritarian.




Authoritarianism and Totalitarianism -  ppt download


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Capitalism and capitalists have only one concern: profits over need.



To make profits, capitalists have to satisfy the needs of customers.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> It's even easier for rich parasites (corporate and human) to shift the burden of taxation onto productive workers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Tax and regulate too much, pesky corporations move away.
Hard to tax something that isn't there anymore.

_Biden’s tax plan is about tackling the class warfare of the US elite_

By lifting the SALT limit that taxed the rich more? DURR


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> By bribing government for the "right" to "own" the means of production.



A bribe forced you to work for a company?

That's awful!! LOL!


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Public stakeholders include neighbors getting sick from living alongside cancer alley.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They can sue for millions if some company is spewing chemicals that cause cancer.

Your map is utterly meaningless.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> By bribing government for the "right" to "own" the means of production.


The Constitution gives them the right to own property, moron.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> David Koch was an authoritarian.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Propaganda.


----------



## dblack (Dec 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> , and jail all libertarians.


That's the end game, to be sure. Totalitarian rule is your hard on.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 2, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> The US should go back to free banking. Then banks could choose whatever form of tender they like, which would undoubtedly be the gold backed notes.


*How did that work last time?*





The Free Banking Era

"The result was a proliferation of banks. 

"Each of these banks issued their own banknotes against their deposits of gold and silver. 

"These notes did not trade one for one, and their value mostly depended on the size of the issuing bank. Issuing paper currency wasn’t just limited to banks; *even drugstores and railroad and insurance companies sometimes issued their own notes."*


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *How did that work last time?*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, having a lot of choices is not a good thing!



georgephillip said:


> "Each of these banks issued their own banknotes against their deposits of gold and silver.
> 
> "These notes did not trade one for one, and their value mostly depended on the size of the issuing bank. Issuing paper currency wasn’t just limited to banks; *even drugstores and railroad and insurance companies sometimes issued their own notes."*


It was gold backed currency.      So long as the receiving bank trusted the issuing bank, their value was determined by the price of gold.  What does the value of government fiat money depend on?  Nothing tangible.  Your claim that they didn't trade one-for-one is also bullshit.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 2, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Bitcoin would quickly lose out to gold backed notes. The only reason it's still alive is the fact that private notes are illegal.


*Been there.
Done that.*

Gold standard - Wikipedia

"The gold standard was abandoned due to its propensity for volatility, as well as the constraints it imposed on governments: by retaining a fixed exchange rate, governments were hamstrung in engaging in expansionary policies to, for example, reduce unemployment during economic recessions.[9][10] 

"There is a consensus among economists that a return to the gold standard would not be beneficial,[11] *and most economic historians reject the idea that the gold standard 'was effective in stabilizing prices and moderating business-cycle fluctuations during the nineteenth century.'"*


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Been there.
> Done that.*
> 
> Gold standard - Wikipedia
> ...


Wikipedia?  You can't be serious.

Wikipedia is a leftwing propaganda organ.  

The modern government subsidized economists all oppose the gold standard because it prevents the government from stealing your savings.

You're damn right governments were "hamstrung" - the same way thieves are hamstrung by iron bars on the Windows.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 2, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> A libertarian is someone who favors economic freedom, the exact opposite of what socialists support.


Socialists understand capitalism elevates market values over human values. In the US libertarians prefer private tyrannies to democracy.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Socialists understand capitalism elevates market values over human values. In the US libertarians prefer private tyrannies to democracy.


That's irrelevant.  You claimed there were socialist libertarians.  That's a contradiction in terms.


----------



## dblack (Dec 2, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> That's irrelevant.  You claimed there were socialist libertarians.  That's a contradiction in terms.


The term "libertarian" is used a lot differently in Europe, which is where the "socialist libertarian" thing is coming from. Unlike US style libertarianism, it proposes a stateless government - so it's more properly categorized with the different forms of anarchy. which is, I guess, why they feel justified in using the word 'libertarian'. But yeah, socialism contradicts any conception of liberty that I know of.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 2, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Even you can't be stupid enough to believe that


*Slavery invented US capitalism:*

How slavery became America’s first big business

"Slavery, particularly the cotton slavery that existed from the end of the 18th century to the beginning of the Civil War, was a thoroughly modern business, one that was continuously changing to maximize profits.

"To grow the cotton that would clothe the world and fuel global industrialization, thousands of young enslaved men and women — *the children of stolen ancestors legally treated as property *— were transported from Maryland and Virginia hundreds of miles south, and forcibly retrained to become America’s most efficient laborers. 

"As they were pushed into the expanding territories of Mississippi and Louisiana, sold and bid on at auctions, and resettled onto forced labor camps, they were given a task: to plant and pick thousands of pounds of cotton."


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 2, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> It was gold backed currency. So long as the receiving bank trusted the issuing bank, their value was determined by the price of gold.



Partially gold backed.


----------



## dblack (Dec 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Slavery invented US capitalism:*
> 
> How slavery became America’s first big business
> 
> ...


Huh... first, you blame slavery on capitalism. Now you blame capitalism on slavery. You seem confused.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 2, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *It won't go down to 1800*
> 
> View attachment 566869
> 
> ...







Less than 2 weeks, down over 4.4%


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 2, 2021)

dblack said:


> Huh... first, you blame slavery on capitalism. Now you blame capitalism on slavery. You seem confused.



He believes in marxism. Confusion is the least of his faults.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Slavery invented US capitalism:*
> 
> How slavery became America’s first big business
> 
> ...


Slavery couldn't invent capitalism anymore than the alphabet could write the Bible. Capitalize didn't need slavery, as was irrefutably demonstrated by the fact that it continued on after the war when slavery had been abolished.

Your Marxist theories are moronic and obviously wrong.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 2, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Partially gold backed.


Nope.  It was fully gold backed.  AFter the federal Reserve was created the dollar was pseudo gold backed.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 2, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Nope.  It was fully gold backed.  AFter the federal Reserve was created the dollar was pseudo gold backed.



You can't find a single bank that had 100% gold coverage for every note they issued.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 2, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> You can't find a single bank that had 100% gold coverage for every note they issued.


They all did.  What's the point of partial coverage?  What does that even mean? Do they renege on their promise to return a specified amount of gold for the note?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 2, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> They all did.  What's the point of partial coverage?  What does that even mean? Do they renege on their promise to return a specified amount of gold for the note?



*They all did.*

You're confused.

*What's the point of partial coverage?  *

So that they can redeem a portion of their notes with gold coin.

*What does that even mean? *

It means that you don't understand free banking.

*Do they renege on their promise to return a specified amount of gold for the note?*

If enough notes were redeemed, they reneged the shit out of their promise.









			https://www.philadelphiafed.org/-/media/frbp/assets/economy/articles/economic-insights/2016/q3/eiq316_free_banking_era.pdf
		


See this part at the end?

_WHY DID SO MANY FREE BANKS FAIL? 

Was it the consequence of unrestricted entry, or something else? A free bank’s reserves of gold and silver were typically small compared with the par value of its notes in circulation. Because their gold and silver reserves paid no interest, banks sought to keep only enough cash in their vaults to meet that day’s expected redemptions. But because free banks were required to pay the holders of their banknotes gold or silver on demand at par value, they were subject to runs if for some reason an unusually large number of note-holders decided to redeem their notes at the same time. 

Normally, one would expect only a small fraction of outstanding banknotes to return to the issuing bank for redemption within a few days. But should the public suddenly suspect that the bank is in financial difficulty because, for instance, it made too many bad loans, an unusually large number of note-holders might simultaneously choose to redeem their notes, causing a bank run. Sometimes, bank runs start not necessarily because people believe that the bank is insolvent but simply because each note-holder believes that other note-holders will choose to redeem their notes today and everyone fears being last in line_


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 2, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Could you quote the document where it says that?


"In many ways, Magna Carta only protected the rights and privileges of nobles. • Limited the power of the king and ended the idea of rule by divine right."

https://www.dcs.k12.oh.us/cms/lib/OH16000212/Centricity/Domain/293/Feudal%20Decline_Magna_Carta%20PowerPoint.pdf


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 2, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> No debt in the USSR, how'd that work out for them?


Better than Enron.

26 years on, Russia set to repay all Soviet Union's foreign debt


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 2, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Who says deflation is good?


Which type of deflation?





Types of deflation - Economics Help


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Better than Enron.
> 
> 26 years on, Russia set to repay all Soviet Union's foreign debt



The Soviet Union was better than Enron? DURR


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 2, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Before or after Chavez stole billions?


Are you jealous?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Which type of deflation?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Which type of deflation?*









__





						Capitalism is NOT Democratic: Democracy is NOT Capitalist
					

How did those evil owners force you to work for them?  They tricked him. They told him there would be cake.



					www.usmessageboard.com
				




The type you were whining about in post #1977.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Are you jealous?



He was your hero, are you?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 2, 2021)

dblack said:


> No. If you don't recall, or don't have the wherewithal to search for them yourself, I give no shits.


Why don't you try explaining the differences between industrial and finance capitalism?




America’s Path To A FIRE Economy


----------



## dblack (Dec 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Why don't you try explaining the differences between industrial and finance capitalism?


 Because you won't even read it. You'll just post another unrelated meme and pretend it means something relevant.
Why don't you argue for your position honestly? It would be a refreshing change.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 2, 2021)

dblack said:


> "We want every fucking thing you do to be controlled by majority rule."


----------



## dblack (Dec 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> [another stupid fucking meme]


Which, as always, in no way addresses or contradicts my post. You want everything subject to your sacred majority rule.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 2, 2021)

struth said:


> one share buys you one vote…just like in a democracatic govt, one citizen (with age requirements) gets one vote.
> 
> however you can buy more shares and get more votes


What does one share/one vote tell you about equality of opportunity?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 2, 2021)

struth said:


> ead what Marx wrote…and of course seen it throughout history


Which of Marx's works have you read?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 2, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> A crooked lawyer going to prison?
> So sad.


Crooked corporation frames human rights lawyer, and you blame the lawyer.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 2, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> 'm the owner as long as I want to be.
> You're still a poor loser.
> Lose those chains, comrade!!!


What do you own, Bean Counter?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 2, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> So you are admitting that democracy can't work.


I'm saying vast concentrations of money kill democracy.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 2, 2021)

dblack said:


> Yes. We need a constitutional "wall of separation" between economic and state power. The more we combine them, the worse things get


Which side of that wall are corporations on?


----------



## dblack (Dec 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Which side of that wall are corporations on?


Fuck you and your phony questions. You know goddamned well which side, you're just playing more stupid agitprop games. You've turned out to be a real piece of shit troll.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 2, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> You can't find a single bank that had 100% gold coverage for every note they issued.


Please explain what "Partial gold coverage" is.  I've never heard of it.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Which side of that wall are corporations on?


They are not on the "state power" side of the wall.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Better than Enron.
> 
> 26 years on, Russia set to repay all Soviet Union's foreign debt


Russia is going to pay all the debt it incurred to the USA during WW II?

You're joking.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 2, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *They all did.*
> 
> You're confused.
> 
> ...



*>> They all did.

You're confused. <<*

Nope.  You are.

*>>What's the point of partial coverage?

So that they can redeem a portion of their notes with gold coin. <<*

Why would anyone use such notes?

*>> What does that even mean?

It means that you don't understand free banking. >>*

Of course I do.  Russian foreign debt has nothing to do with free banking

*>>Do they renege on their promise to return a specified amount of gold for the note?

If enough notes were redeemed, they reneged the shit out of their promise. <<*

Yes they did.  Old news.  How does paying off old debt make their notes useful?  They aren't even gold notes.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> I'm saying vast concentrations of money kill democracy.


Democracy kills itself.  It's a self limiting disease.  It's not a stable form of government.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> What does one share/one vote tell you about equality of opportunity?


It tells you that a corporation is a private corporation.  It isn't required to follow the "one share/one vote" model you propose.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Why don't you try explaining the differences between industrial and finance capitalism?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Capitalism is capitalism.  You either follow it or let the government run corporations.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Are you jealous?


You admire thieves?


----------



## struth (Dec 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> What does one share/one vote tell you about equality of opportunity?


everybody has the same opportunity to buy shares if it’s a publicly traded company


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Crooked corporation frames human rights lawyer, and you blame the lawyer.



How did they frame him?
Spell it out.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 2, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> What do you own, Bean Counter?



More than you, comrade.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 2, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Please explain what "Partial gold coverage" is.  I've never heard of it.



*I've never heard of it.*

Obviously. 
If they had $1000 in specie (gold coin) and they issued $5000 in notes, they have 20% coverage. They can redeem 20% of their notes with gold.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 2, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *I've never heard of it.*
> 
> Obviously.
> If they had $1000 in specie (gold coin) and they issued $5000 in notes, they have 20% coverage. They can redeem 20% of their notes with gold.


You meant fractional reserve banking.  That's still a 100% gold standard.  If a bank customer turns in bank notes, he's entitled to receive 100% of the note value in gold.  Whether a bank had enough to cover all it's not obligations is another issue altogether.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 2, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> *>> They all did.
> 
> You're confused. <<*
> 
> ...



*Why would anyone use such notes?*

Banks issued notes. You don't want to use them?

*Russian foreign debt has nothing to do with free banking*

You're conflating my posts with commie george's.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 2, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> You meant fractional reserve banking.  That's still a 100% gold standard.  If a bank customer turns in bank notes, he's entitled to receive 100% of the note value in gold.  Whether a bank had enough to cover all it's not obligations is another issue altogether.



*You meant fractional reserve banking. *

I'm talking about banks issuing their own notes under the gold standard, before the Fed existed.
Of course modern banks have always been fractional reserve.

*That's still a 100% gold standard.  *

Free banking always had less than a 100% gold reserve.

*If a bank customer turns in bank notes, he's entitled to receive 100% of the note value in gold.*

Yup. Entitled all day long.

*Whether a bank had enough to cover all it's not obligations is another issue altogether.*

The issue is, they never did have enough gold to cover all their obligations. Never ever.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 2, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *You meant fractional reserve banking. *
> 
> I'm talking about banks issuing their own notes under the gold standard, before the Fed existed.
> Of course modern banks have always been fractional reserve.



That is " fractional reserve banking."


Toddsterpatriot said:


> *That's still a 100% gold standard.  *
> 
> Free banking always had less than a 100% gold reserve.



That doesn't make it a "partial gold standard."  It's a fractional reserve system, whether it's based on gold or not.



Toddsterpatriot said:


> *If a bank customer turns in bank notes, he's entitled to receive 100% of the note value in gold.*
> 
> Yup. Entitled all day long.



You're legally entitled.  That means if the bank doesn't cough up the gold you can have the legal authorities go after it.



Toddsterpatriot said:


> *Whether a bank had enough to cover all it's not obligations is another issue altogether.*
> 
> The issue is, they never did have enough gold to cover all their obligations. Never ever.


It's separate issue.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 3, 2021)

dblack said:


> ndeed, I do. My response is mockery. If you're going to use the board to spread your propaganda - I'm going to point out just how stupid it is.


*By ignoring my claims and resorting to ad hominem fallacies.
Refute this claim if you can:*

The Marxist Perspective on Crime

*"The state practices Selective Law Enforcement* – The Criminal Justice system mainly concerns itself with policing and punishing the marginalised, not the wealthy, and this performs ideological functions for the elite classes."


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 3, 2021)

Flopper said:


> Both socialisms and capitalism exist in almost all nations. Balancing the two competing ideologies provides the highest level of productivity commensurate with the social well being of society. It is is the balance between these to two ideologies that all nations should strive


*That sounds logical to me; however, we live in a country where many voters regard Social Security and the Post Office as examples of socialism. I believe these same conservatives minimize the threat to democracy posed by unbridled capitalism:*

The dollar costs of inequality: they are greater than you think | MR Online

"Pretty much everyone accepts that inequality is a big problem in the U.S. 

"But it is doubtful that most people truly grasp how successfully U.S. elites have captured the benefits of economic growth and, as a result, how much the resulting inequality has cost them. 

"Here is one estimate of that cost—according to Carter C. Price and Kathryn A. Edwards, authors of a Rand Education and Labor study on income trends:



> "[the] aggregate income for the population below the 90th percentile . . . would have been $2.5 trillion (67 percent) higher in 2018 had income growth since 1975 remained as equitable as it was in the first two post-War decades. From 1975 to 2018, the difference between the aggregate taxable income for those below the 90th percentile and the equitable growth counterfactual totals $47 trillion.


*"That $2.5 trillion was enough to give each and every worker in the bottom nine income deciles an additional $1144 a month, every month of the year. *

"That is life changing money for tens of millions—and that is only a partial measure of the costs of inequality."


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 3, 2021)

Leviticus said:


> Neither is socialism.  Every country that has ever exists thats used only socialism has ended in dictatorship.


Care to provide any examples?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 3, 2021)

elektra said:


> I work for a stockholder company. I make 160k a year. No college degree.


So what?




Many uneducated whores earn more.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 3, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Jeremy Corbyn.....calling someone a parasite. Hilarious!!!


Not half as funny as a useless eater like you calling someone else a parasite.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 3, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> So he's never had a real job.


Just like you, Parasite.


----------



## elektra (Dec 3, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> So what?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I make over almost 200k. I pay more in taxes than you make in in 3 years.

The capitalist corporation I work for pays extremely well. In 2 years I could have most anybody here, making an easy 100k a year.

Your response is nothing but immature sour grapes.

Instead of discussing your opinion, you turn to flaming people in your OP.

You are lousy piece of shit which only makes sense, seeing how your opinion stinks of failed Democrat liberal Marxism.

I can send you some cheese and spam if you are hungry, a little welfare from me the righteous to you the social leech.

Pm your address, I am sure you need free food. I have no problem sending you rice and beans.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 3, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> That is " fractional reserve banking."
> 
> 
> That doesn't make it a "partial gold standard."  It's a fractional reserve system, whether it's based on gold or not.
> ...



*That is " fractional reserve banking."*

A bank issuing their own notes is not fractional reserve banking.

Fractional reserve banking is when a bank holds a part of their deposits as a reserve.

*That doesn't make it a "partial gold standard." *

Notes are partially covered.

*You're legally entitled.  *

I'm sure that makes you feel better after the bank failed.

*That means if the bank doesn't cough up the gold you can have the legal authorities go after it.*

Go after the gold? They never had it.
Go after the bank? You're the one who thinks private bank notes are a good idea.

*It's separate issue.*

You claimed banks had 100% of the gold needed to cover their notes.
That's the issue that started our disagreement.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 3, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The dollar costs of inequality: they are greater than you think | MR Online
> 
> "Pretty much everyone accepts that inequality is a big problem in the U.S.
> 
> ...



*"Pretty much everyone accepts that inequality is a big problem in the U.S.*

Only the whiney people.

*"That $2.5 trillion was enough to give each and every worker in the bottom nine income deciles an additional $1144 a month, every month of the year. *

LOL!


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 3, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Just like you, Parasite.



You love those useless socialist "authors..


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 3, 2021)

themirrorthief said:


> this so bs the crash of 29 happened due to massive borrowing to pay for a colossal war in europe when they couldnt pay the banks banks went under


*When US banks required France and the UK to repay loans made prior to US involvement in the "'War to End All Wars", Germany took the biggest hit and Hitler got his Big Part.

On this side of the Atlantic, a decade of speculation helped crash the global economy:*

Great Depression History

"Throughout the 1920s, the U.S. economy expanded rapidly, and the nation’s total wealth more than doubled between 1920 and 1929, a period dubbed 'the Roaring Twenties'”

"The stock market, centered at the New York Stock Exchange on Wall Street in New York City, was the scene of reckless speculation, where everyone from millionaire tycoons to cooks and janitors poured their savings into stocks. 

"As a result, the stock market underwent rapid expansion, reaching its peak in August 1929.

*"By then, production had already declined and unemployment had risen, leaving stock prices much higher than their actual value. *

"Additionally, wages at that time were low, consumer debt was proliferating, the agricultural sector of the economy was struggling due to drought and falling food prices and banks had an excess of large loans that could not be liquidated."


----------



## Batcat (Dec 3, 2021)

Rambunctious said:


> Today the USA is neither capitalist or Democratic.....


True. It is a oligarchy verging on a Banana Republic.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 3, 2021)

themirrorthief said:


> broke people have no freedom


Depending on your definition of "freedom", I can say from personal experience becoming homeless produced a sense of freedom I've never experienced anywhere else.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 3, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> How did Americans benefit from Afghanistan, Iraq or Vietnam?


*Americans who own shares in defense stocks certainly benefitted.
There is also the additional gain all Americans receive from using a global reserve currency in their daily transactions:*




Transcript - How the US makes countries pay for its wars: Economics of American imperialism with Michael Hudson | Moderate Rebels

*"MICHAEL HUDSON*: Well I wrote “Super Imperialism” in 1972, and it was published exactly one month after President Nixon took America off gold in August of 1971. 

*"And the reason he took America off gold was the entire balance of payments deficit from the Korean War to the Vietnam War was military in character.*

And every time, especially in the ’60s, the more money that America would spend in Vietnam and Southeast Asia, all this money had to be spent locally. 

"And the banks were all French banks, because it was French Indochina, all the money would be sent to Paris, to the banks’ head offices, turned over from dollars into francs, and General de Gaulle would end up with all these dollars, and he would, every month, send in the dollars and want payment in gold. 

"And Germany would do the same thing.

"And so the more America fought militarily, it was depleting its own gold stock, until finally, in August 1971, it said, *'We’ve been using gold as the key to our world power ever since World War I, when we put Europe on rations. So we’re going to stop paying gold.'"*


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 3, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Democracy is rule by the dumbest 51% of the people. What makes you believe majority vote is a good way to design a car? It obviously isn't. There is no technical innovation that resulted from a majority vote. Economic democracy is the dumbest idea ever concieved.


What's you alternative?
Rule by rich morons?


----------



## dblack (Dec 3, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> What's you alternative?
> Rule by rich morons?


No, that's your alternative. The only one, apparently, that you can imagine. That must suck.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 3, 2021)

tahuyaman said:


> It’s not Democratic, but it is democratic.


Is it (capitalism) compatible with democracy?


----------



## dblack (Dec 3, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Is it (capitalism) compatible with democracy?


As long as we don't try to mix the two, it's all good.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 3, 2021)

themirrorthief said:


> socialism and communism always fail when big brother takes your paycheck and re distributes it its only a matter of time you spend your time at work drinking and sitting on your ass cause working hard will get you NOWHERE


*You should mention that to Hitler the next time you see him*




Soviet industry in World War II - Wikipedia

"An economic turning point for the better came in 1943, when gross industrial production increased by 17% compared with 1942. In the Urals and Siberia, metallurgical plants were being built and expanded at an accelerated pace. In 1944, the volume of industrial production when compared with the volume of industrial production in 1940 was at 103-104%. 

"In 1943-1945 mass production of the newer military equipment was carried out. In 1943, when it became clearer that the war was going in allied favor and that the Soviet Union would not outright lose the war, one of the most important tasks became to restore the national economy"


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 3, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "In 1943-1945 mass production of the newer military equipment was carried out. In 1943, when it became clearer that the war was going in allied favor and that the Soviet Union would not outright lose the war, one of the most important tasks became to restore the national economy"



It's been nearly 80 years.....when are they going to restore the national economy?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 3, 2021)

themirrorthief said:


> THE WEALTHY always control everything that is never going to change money is power communism just increases the poor and POWERLESS


Communism leads to a money-less society which pretty much eliminates the WEALTHY from the human population; sorry if that scares you.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 3, 2021)

themirrorthief said:


> MOVE TO SOMALIA


Too many hired killers




Trump Further Entrenches US Military Involvement in Somalia


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 3, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Communism leads to a money-less society which pretty much eliminates the WEALTHY from the human population; sorry if that scares you.


Yes, that does scare me.  It should scare anyone with a brain.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 3, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *That is " fractional reserve banking."*
> 
> A bank issuing their own notes is not fractional reserve banking.


Of course it is, turd.  You don't know the meaning of the term.  Gold in the vault are reserves.  If you don't have enough reserves to exchange every note issued for gold, then you have a fractional reserve system.  That's the definition of term, moron.


Toddsterpatriot said:


> Fractional reserve banking is when a bank holds a part of their deposits as a reserve.


Yes, like gold, moron.



Toddsterpatriot said:


> *That doesn't make it a "partial gold standard." *
> 
> Notes are partially covered.


It's still not a partial gold standard.



Toddsterpatriot said:


> *You're legally entitled.  *
> 
> I'm sure that makes you feel better after the bank failed.


It doesn't matter what makes me feel better.  I'm explaining the meaning of the term "entitled."



Toddsterpatriot said:


> *That means if the bank doesn't cough up the gold you can have the legal authorities go after it.*
> 
> Go after the gold? They never had it.
> Go after the bank? You're the one who thinks private bank notes are a good idea.


Private notes backed by gold are a much better idea than government fiat money.



Toddsterpatriot said:


> *It's separate issue.*
> 
> You claimed banks had 100% of the gold needed to cover their notes.
> That's the issue that started our disagreement.


No, that isn't what I claimed.  Go back and read through the thread.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 3, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Social Darwinism is an idea promoted by progressives like Woodrow Wilson and Margret Sanger. birth control was part of Sanger's plan to keep blacks from reproducing.


*You're forgetting Alfred Rosenberg*

Social Darwinism - Wikipedia

"Nazi Germany's justification for its aggression was regularly promoted in Nazi propaganda films depicting scenes such as beetles fighting in a lab setting to demonstrate the principles of 'survival of the fittest' as depicted in _Alles Leben ist Kampf_ (English translation: _All Life is Struggle_). 

"Hitler often refused to intervene in the promotion of officers and staff members, preferring instead to have them fight amongst themselves to force the 'stronger' person to prevail—"strength" referring to those social forces void of virtue or principle."

*"Key proponents were Alfred Rosenberg, who was hanged later at Nuremberg. *

"Such ideas also helped to advance euthanasia in Germany, especially Action T4, which led to the murder of mentally ill and disabled people in Germany."


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 3, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Of course it is, turd. You don't know the meaning of the term. Gold in the vault are reserves.



They only have a fraction of their issued notes as reserves?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 3, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Of course it is, turd.  You don't know the meaning of the term.  Gold in the vault are reserves.  If you don't have enough reserves to exchange every note issued for gold, then you have a fractional reserve system.  That's the definition of term, moron.
> 
> Yes, like gold, moron.
> 
> ...



*Private notes backed by gold are a much better idea than government fiat money.*

Meh. Clunky and pointless.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 3, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> My solution for you is to send you to a reeducation camp.


Proving (once again) you would have been more useful to this society as an abortion statistic.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 3, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *You're forgetting Alfred Rosenberg*
> 
> Social Darwinism - Wikipedia
> 
> ...


Yeah, we all know that NAZIs believe in social darwinism.  What most people don't know is that the NAZIs got the idea from American "liberals."


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 3, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> They only have a fraction of their issued notes as reserves?


Yes, that's called "fractional reserve banking."


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 3, 2021)

jc456 said:


> Name a place socialism works?
> 
> also, what’s your issue with capitalism?











						15 Socialist Countries that Have Succeeded
					

In this article, we take a look at 15 socialist countries that have succeeded. You can skip our detailed analysis about state of socialism, and go directly to the 5 Socialist Countries that Have Succeeded. Socialism is an economic theory that stresses the ownership of means of production by...




					www.yahoo.com


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 3, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *Private notes backed by gold are a much better idea than government fiat money.*
> 
> Meh. Clunky and pointless.


How is it any more "clunky" than government fiat money?  The point is to keep the government from looting your savings.    Apparently you are one of those imbeciles walking about with a sign that says "kick me" attached to your back.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 3, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Of course it is, turd.  You don't know the meaning of the term.  Gold in the vault are reserves.  If you don't have enough reserves to exchange every note issued for gold, then you have a fractional reserve system.  That's the definition of term, moron.
> 
> Yes, like gold, moron.
> 
> ...












Fully gold backed didn't mean they had 100% of the gold to redeem their notes? LOL!


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 3, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> hat's the rate at which banks lend reserves to each other.
> Over night loans, how many consumers/small businesses need those?


All of them.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 3, 2021)

That's what I've been telling you.

They don't have 100% of the gold to redeem their notes.

Why do you keep disagreeing?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 3, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> How is it any more "clunky" than government fiat money?







The above note buys $1 worth of goods.






The note we discussed less than 2 weeks ago is worth 1/1846 th of an ounce of gold.
About 96.5 cents worth today. You expect a store clerk to look up the value of every bill you hand over to make a purchase? LOL! Clunky.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 3, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> All of them.



They have to repay the loan the next day.
Are they going to keep the proceeds in the register?
If they do, what did they need the loan for? 
What if they can't repay? DURR


----------



## Samofvt (Dec 3, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> 15 Socialist Countries that Have Succeeded
> 
> 
> In this article, we take a look at 15 socialist countries that have succeeded. You can skip our detailed analysis about state of socialism, and go directly to the 5 Socialist Countries that Have Succeeded. Socialism is an economic theory that stresses the ownership of means of production by...
> ...



Sorry, but that article is full of non-sense.  For starters, the criteria they use to rank "successful" socialism are ridiculous: they don't indicate how stable the economy or political systems are, they don't include any indication of how happy the people under those systems are, and they don't include any indication of standard of living.  Just because they divide 1 loaf of bread among 3 households evenly, doesn't mean the people in those households are well nourished.

Right away, the first four in the list, Moldova, Armenia, Croatia, Slovenia, are all known to be war torn unstable regions that participate in straight up ethnic cleansing (kind of like our democrats' cancel culture, except there they just kill the people they don't like and bury their bodies in mass graves).

Portugal, with 19.5% of it's Population below poverty line or at risk of poverty or social exclusion (AROPE, 2019), is not exactly a stellar example, now is it?  Spain is worse, with 25.3% below the poverty line or at risk of poverty or social exclusion (AROPE, 2019).  According to one source (ing.com), "Spain's economic downturn in 2020 is likely to be the worst of all eurozone countries". 

Compare those "successful socialist" countries' poverty level to the USA, which is at about 10% (US Census Bureau).  Over time, our rate of poverty continues to climb the closer we get to implementing those same socialist "government runs all" programs.

I could go on, but the other countries they list as "successful" have similar dismal pictures of the situation for their people.

[Edit: and their top pick, Sweeden, is NOT EVEN A SOCIALIST STATE.  They strongly favor private ownership/capitalism and is LESS socialist that the USA is these days.  No wonder it's beating us out as an innovator and producer]


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 3, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> View attachment 571459
> 
> 
> View attachment 571458
> ...


You obviously don't know the meaning of the terminology, and you're deliberately misconstruing it.

We're done. I don't waste my time arguing with lying scumbags.  At some point I resort to pure verbal abuse, and you've reached that point.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 3, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> You obviously don't know the meaning of the terminology, and you're deliberately misconstruing it.
> 
> We're done. I don't waste my time arguing with lying scumbags.  At some point I resort to pure verbal abuse, and you've reached that point.



*You obviously don't know the meaning of the terminology, and you're deliberately misconstruing it.*

Right. Like when I said they don't have full backing. LOL!

*At some point I resort to pure verbal abuse, and you've reached that point.*

Don't cry.


----------



## tahuyaman (Dec 4, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *You meant fractional reserve banking. *
> 
> I'm talking about banks issuing their own notes under the gold standard, before the Fed existed.
> Of course modern banks have always been fractional reserve.
> ...


Fractional reserve banking is what has allowed people of lesser means  to purchase a home.  Prior to that people needed to have the cash on hand.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 4, 2021)

tahuyaman said:


> Fractional reserve banking is what has allowed people of lesser means  to purchase a home.  Prior to that people needed to have the cash on hand.


We've had fractional reserve banking for more than 250 years.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 4, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *You obviously don't know the meaning of the terminology, and you're deliberately misconstruing it.*
> 
> Right. Like when I said they don't have full backing. LOL!


"full backing" the is a term you invented



Toddsterpatriot said:


> *At some point I resort to pure verbal abuse, and you've reached that point.*
> 
> Don't cry.


You'll be the one crying.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 4, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> "full backing" the is a term you invented



If you don't know what backing means when discussing a gold-backed dollar, I can't help you.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 4, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> If you don't know what backing means when discussing a gold-backed dollar, I can't help you.


I do.  You don't.

What a lying asshole.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 4, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> I do.  You don't.
> 
> What a lying asshole.



Gold-bugs have such thin skin.

And weak understanding of banking.

I understand why a bank with 1000 ounces of gold would want to issue notes worth 5000 ounces.

Do you?

If you do, why are you in favor of private currency?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 4, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Politicians are the ones who take bribes and "distort the market."
> 
> How is a wealth person a "tyrant." He can't legally shoot anyone. Politicians can


Lower capital gains tax rates and stock buybacks distort the market.
When was the last time a politician legally shot someone?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 4, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Lower capital gains tax rates and stock buybacks distort the market.



So don't buy any stock and sell the stock you already own.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 4, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> They paid the same as white people, moron.








Staggering Loss of Black Wealth Due to Subprime Scandal Continues Unabated


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 4, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> The USSR, for one.


When did the USSR invade and occupy another country on the opposite side of the planet?


----------



## Uriel (Dec 4, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Staggering Loss of Black Wealth Due to Subprime Scandal Continues Unabated


When considering that the CRA generally pushed banks to lend more to the poor and minorities in particular, this isn't surprising.

FICO scores don't tell the whole story of a person's finances.  While it is useful in some measures, it still won't cover intangibles like cultural differences.  If you give 1,000 families the same amount of money, they're not all going to spend it the same way, even if they are starting with the same finances and assets.

We see this with how many Asian groups come to America oftentimes with little money but manage to rise up economically much faster than blacks, Latinos, and oftentimes whites as well.  Economic mobility can be quantified in terms of results but not often by causes.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 4, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Staggering Loss of Black Wealth Due to Subprime Scandal Continues Unabated



What are the default rates among borrowers with a FICO score of 660 or higher by race?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 4, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> When did the USSR invade and occupy another country on the opposite side of the planet?



How many European countries did the USSR invade and occupy?


----------



## Uriel (Dec 4, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> When did the USSR invade and occupy another country on the opposite side of the planet?


The USSR generally took more the kind of approach we did with Latin America.  We had certain regimes we toppled with CIA-supported coups, while they had ones they did clandestinely.

It is true that they didn't typically enter fullscale war outside of their local region, although that's probably more due to the fact that they were the world's largest country in land area for about 70 years.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 4, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> When did the USSR invade and occupy another country on the opposite side of the planet?


So it's OK if the country they invade and occupy is closer?


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 4, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Staggering Loss of Black Wealth Due to Subprime Scandal Continues Unabated


Your FICO score isn't the only thing that determines your credit worthyness.

Who are the authors of this chart?  They appear to be a group of nobody communists.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 4, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Lower capital gains tax rates and stock buybacks distort the market.
> When was the last time a politician legally shot someone?


Income taxes, period, distort the market, so why don't we just abolish them?

What does your quote have to do with anything?


----------



## tahuyaman (Dec 4, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> We've had fractional reserve banking for more than 250 years.


And without it, we’d have a cash only society.


----------



## tahuyaman (Dec 4, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> …When was the last time a politician legally shot someone?


Good question.  When?


----------



## tahuyaman (Dec 4, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Is it (capitalism) compatible with democracy?


Yes


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 4, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> So lets end the World Bank. I'm perfectly OK with that. You see, I don't gigantic multinational organizations are a good way to promote capitalism.


*World Bank loans subsidize US capitalism by inflicting an immense debt burden of third world countries. Under socialism the World Bank would cease to exist.*

Michael Hudson Discusses the IMF and World Bank: Partners In Backwardness | naked capitalism

"It (World Bankl) was set up basically by the United States in 1944, along with its sister institution, the International Monetary Fund (IMF). 

*"Their purpose was to create an international order like a funnel to make other countries economically dependent on the United States. *

"To make sure that no other country or group of countries – even all the rest of the world – could not dictate U.S. policy. 

"American diplomats insisted on the ability to veto any action by the World Bank or IMF. 

"The aim of this veto power was to make sure that any policy was, in Donald Trump’s words, to put America first. *'We’ve got to win and they’ve got to lose.'"*


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 4, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Poor Russia, it's almost like their neighbors don't trust them.







How many times in the last century has Europe and the US invaded Russia? How does that number compare to the inverse?


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 4, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *World Bank loans subsidize US capitalism by inflicting an immense debt burden of third world countries. Under socialism the World Bank would cease to exist.*
> 
> Michael Hudson Discusses the IMF and World Bank: Partners In Backwardness | naked capitalism
> 
> ...


So the world Bank harms other countries by giving them money?

That has to be the dumbest claim ever made about world government.

I would be happy to abolish the World Bank tomorrow.  It's no friend of capitalism


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 4, 2021)

Mac-7 said:


> Just to be clear, you are supporting what china is doing in africa and other poor countries?


I don't know enough about China's foreign policy to support its actions. I assume its commitment to capitalism requires a degree of exploitation of local resources and populations; however, China is not sending its military half-way around the globe to maim, murder, and displace millions of innocent civilians unlike the US capitalists.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 4, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How many times in the last century has Europe and the US invaded Russia? How does that number compare to the inverse?


Germany is not Europs.  Taking a side in the Russian civil war is not "invading" it.  After the commies took over, the USSR invalided Poland (twice),  Finland, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Bessarabia, Northern Bukovina, Iran, Hungary. Romania, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia,  Northern Norway, Bornholm, Denmark, Germany, Austria, Manchuria, Korea, the Kuril Islands, Afghanistan, parts of Georgia and Ukraine
​


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 4, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> I don't know enough about China's foreign policy to support its actions. I assume its commitment to capitalism requires a degree of exploitation of local resources and populations; however, China is not sending its military half-way around the globe to maim, murder, and displace millions of innocent civilians unlike the US capitalists.


Yeah, it only invades its neighbors like Vietnam, South Korea and Nepal,


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 4, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> World Bank loans subsidize US capitalism by inflicting an immense debt burden of third world countries.



That's awful!!!

Why do idiots in the third world keep borrowing?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 4, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How many times in the last century has Europe and the US invaded Russia?



Eastern Europe deserved to be enslaved by the USSR because Germany? LOL!

Damn, you come up with some funny shit.


----------



## San Souci (Dec 4, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf
> 
> "Capitalism and democracy follow different logics: unequally distributed property rights on the one hand, equal civic and political rights on the other; profit oriented trade within capitalism in contrast to the search for the common good within democracy; debate, compromise and majority decision-making within democratic politics versus hierarchical decision-making by managers and capital owners.
> 
> ...


Clue--the USA was NEVER a Democracy. It is a Representative Republic.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 4, 2021)

Mac-7 said:


> The US has been involved in wars where civilians died
> 
> But few of them were killed by the US military
> 
> And certainly not millions


Millions of civilians have been killed by the US military since 1945 from Korea to Vietnam to Laos to Cambodia and on to Iraq and Afghanistan, and Africa is likely to surpass them all unless revolutionary change comes to this country. 

It is entirely possible the US dollar depends for its global reserve currency status on the mass murder and displacement of millions of human beings today. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...merican-wars/2011/12/05/gIQALCO4eP_story.html

*"The major wars the United States has fought since the surrender of Japan in 1945 — in Korea, Indochina, Iraq and Afghanistan — have produced colossal carnage. 

"For most of them, we do not have an accurate sense of how many people died, but a conservative estimate is at least 6 million civilians and soldiers.*


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 4, 2021)

Mac-7 said:


> Libs were pissin’ their pants to have more home loans in poor neighborhoods


Loans to qualified buyers who were denied on the basis of their race/zip code. Libs never endorsed liars loans or inflated appraisal prices for property. That was all on the lender side of the transactions.

Serie: Bill Black Series


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 4, 2021)

Mac-7 said:


> George Bush was a poor excuse for a conservative but we elected him and are stuck with his legacy
> 
> That applies to libs and Bill Clinton too


There's no way to vote against Goldman Sachs by "choosing" between Republican or Democrat.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 4, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> You didn't address my point: If socialism is so superior, then why should socialist nations care if capitalist nations embargo them?


Because capitalists control the global reserve currency.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 4, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> The Korean war, nimrod. You do know that North Korea overan almost the entire peninsula before NATO came to SK's aid, don't you?


Did you know a majority of Koreans on that peninsula welcomed the NK invasion five years after the US army refused to allow free elections on that peninsula?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 4, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Because capitalists control the global reserve currency.



Poor socialists, can't come up with a currency that other countries want to use.


----------



## Mac-7 (Dec 4, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> China is not sending its military half-way around the globe to maim, murder, and displace millions of innocent civilians unlike the US capitalists.


Neither is America

We use our power for the benefit of all freedom loving people

When china is the global power it is working toward you will see what a true murderer looks like


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 4, 2021)

dblack said:


> *Why do you ask questions which deliberately misconstrue the topic?*
> 
> Or are you actually just that confused? It's like points and arguments just bounce off and you pull another meme out of your grab bag.


I responded to your claim: "Crony-capitalism the the core of corporatism." 

You provided this link: Corporatism - Wikipedia

I quoted YOUR LINK:

"Corporatism is not government corruption in politics or the use of bribery by corporate interest groups"

*How is corporatism simultaneously crony-capitalism AND not government corruption in politics?*


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 4, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Because capitalists control the global reserve currency.


So?  Why don't these "superior" socialist economies control the global reserve currency?  Why do they even care what the reserve currency is?  That's a feature of capitalism, isn't it?


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 4, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Did you know a majority of Koreans on that peninsula welcomed the NK invasion five years after the US army refused to allow free elections on that peninsula?



Did they?  Can you prove that?  the only free elections proposed were in South Korea, not North Korea.  Right there, it's hardly Democratic.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 4, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> There's no way to vote against Goldman Sachs by "choosing" between Republican or Democrat.


You can vote socialist.


----------



## Mac-7 (Dec 4, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Did you know a majority of Koreans on that peninsula welcomed the NK invasion five years after the US army refused to allow free elections on that peninsula?


I know thats a damn lie

The communists refused to hold elections that  could be monitored by the UN


----------



## Mac-7 (Dec 4, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Did they?  Can you prove that?  the only free elections proposed were in South Korea, not North Korea.  Right there, it's hardly Democratic.


Why do these twisted liberals insist on hating America and telling lies for communist countries?


----------



## Mac-7 (Dec 4, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Millions of civilians have been killed by the US military since 1945 from Korea to Vietnam to Laos to Cambodia and on to Iraq and Afghanistan, and Africa is likely to surpass them all unless revolutionary change comes to this country.


You mean millions of communist fighters with civilians caught in the crossfire

Not to mention the batshit crazy muslim terrorists


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 4, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Loans to qualified buyers who were denied on the basis of their race/zip code. Libs never endorsed liars loans or inflated appraisal prices for property. That was all on the lender side of the transactions.
> 
> Serie: Bill Black Series


That's a myth I often see progs spouting..  What's the evidence for it?

Liberals are the ones who invented liar loans, moron.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 4, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Is that how we beat the USSR?







__





						Life expectancy of Russian men falls to 58
					





					www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 4, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Philip Agre sounds like a whiney twat, friend of yours?


"Q: What is conservatism?
*A: Conservatism is the domination of society by an aristocracy*.
Q: What is wrong with conservatism?"


----------



## Mac-7 (Dec 4, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Loans to qualified buyers who were denied on the basis of their race/zip code.


Thats not correct

As everyone found out when unqualified minorities defaulted on their morgages


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 4, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "Q: What is conservatism?
> *A: Conservatism is the domination of society by an aristocracy*.
> Q: What is wrong with conservatism?"



He sounds like a stupid whiney twat. I see why you like him.


----------



## tahuyaman (Dec 4, 2021)

San Souci said:


> Clue--the USA was NEVER a Democracy. It is a Representative Republic.


Which is a democratic form of governmrnt.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 5, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> The fact is the new deal didn't work and the economy only got back to normal when a Republican congress repealed all of FDRs New DEal progams and regulations.


When did that happen?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 5, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> He earned the money to buy them, moron.


By stealing or lying, Rube?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 5, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> ROFL! Where do you live? Where do you work?


I'm retired and living in a senior apartment building.
Westlake, Los Angeles - Wikipedia




Where do you live/work?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 5, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> No one knows who the fuck they are, and you have to pay for a subscription to read the article.


Are you some kind of communist?
Pay up, Freeloader.

Language of Slavery - Underground Railroad (U.S. National Park Service).


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 5, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> How's that working out for you?


Better than Epstein.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 5, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> I labored to buy my stock. Jealous?


Define labor.
Did you lie, cheat, or steal?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 5, 2021)

jc456 said:


> Equality can’t ever work, even the pilgrims learned that lesson!!! You’re just an idiot!







*"Equal opportunity* is a state of fairness in which individuals are treated similarly, unhampered by artificial barriers or prejudices or preferences, except when particular distinctions can be explicitly justified.[1] 

Equal opportunity - Wikipedia

"The intent is that the important jobs in an organization should go to the people who are most qualified – persons most likely to perform ably in a given task – and not go to persons for reasons deemed arbitrary or irrelevant, such as *circumstances of birth, upbringing, having well-connected relatives or friends,[2] religion, sex,[3] ethnicity,[3] race, caste,[4] or involuntary personal attributes such as disability, age, gender identity, or sexual orientation."*


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 5, 2021)

jc456 said:


> o survive? Again, even the pilgrims figured out your nonsense doesn’t work. Shows how stupid you are. You’ve had history to teach you and you haven’t figured out the flaw!


Human beings survived for tens of thousands of years without your idiotic conception of property, proving once again you are even more ignorant/stupid/arrogant than your latest rich hero




Tired of winning?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 5, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> When they don't verify your income, you can lie about your income......like I said, idiot.


When they don't verify your income, they are lying, Rube.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 5, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> You think their effective tax rate refutes kaz's claim?
> 
> Damn, you're stupid.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 5, 2021)

jc456 said:


> Why are there countries?







Period 5: Industrialization and Global Integration, c. 1750 to c. 1900


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 5, 2021)

jc456 said:


> So Reagan was a Democrat ?


Until he had to pay income tax.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 5, 2021)

jc456 said:


> Didn’t take a salary while in office


How much profit did he "earn" from that decision?
How Donald Trump is monetising his presidency




Trump reported making more than $1.6 billion while president - CREW | Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 5, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> So what?


If your economic system can't exist without mass murder and usury, find a new system.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 5, 2021)

struth said:


> yeah then the Socialist made his disappear when he opposed their plans…and Kim was made president after their invasion


*Kim became premier in 1948 two years before the invasion and three years after the US prevented free elections peninsula wide:*

People's Republic of Korea - Wikipedia

"Suppression in the South[edit]

"After the American arrival in September 1945, the United States Army Military Government in Korea controlled the peninsula south of the 38th parallel. 

"The military governor Lieutenant-General John R. Hodge refused to recognize the PRK and its People's Committees, and outlawed it on 12 December.[6]: p.57  

*"He later stated, 'one of our missions was to break down this Communist government'.[8]: p.202  *

"On 19 July 1947, Lyuh Woon-hyung was assassinated by a right-wing Korean."


----------



## struth (Dec 5, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Kim became premier in 1948 two years before the invasion and three years after the US prevented free elections peninsula wide:*
> 
> People's Republic of Korea - Wikipedia
> 
> ...


your link says the Russian invaded in august of 1945,  the US came in after that to prevent the so called “free-elections”

can they really be “free elections” if the socialist in Moscow are running it??  

seriously?


----------



## tahuyaman (Dec 5, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Nope.  The fact is the new deal didn't work and the economy only got back to normal when a Republican congress repealed all of FDRs New DEal progams and regulations.


The Democrats held the majority in the house of Reps from the late 40’s until 1993.   The Republicans did not repeal New Deal programs. They didn’t have the power to do so.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 5, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> When did that happen?


After the war, moron


----------



## tahuyaman (Dec 5, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> After the war, moron


Mature response.


----------



## jc456 (Dec 5, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How much profit did he "earn" from that decision?
> How Donald Trump is monetising his presidency
> 
> 
> ...


Zero, he took zero. I know you don’t do math, anything times zero equals…….. zero


----------



## jc456 (Dec 5, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Until he had to pay income tax.


He was a demofk though right?


----------



## jc456 (Dec 5, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Period 5: Industrialization and Global Integration, c. 1750 to c. 1900


Can’t answer my question huh?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 5, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> By stealing or lying, Rube?



By working.

You should have done more of that, eh comrade?

Maybe you'd be less poor and miserable?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 5, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Better than Epstein.


Your lack of property is working better than Epstein? OK.....LOL!


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 5, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Define labor.
> Did you lie, cheat, or steal?



*Define labor.*


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 5, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> When they don't verify your income, they are lying, Rube.



If you lie about your income, you are lying,


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 5, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> View attachment 572031



You're both.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 5, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> If your economic system can't exist without mass murder and usury, find a new system.



I agree, you should find something better than communism.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 5, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "The military governor Lieutenant-General John R. Hodge refused to recognize the PRK and its People's Committees, and outlawed it on 12 December.[6]: p.57
> 
> *"He later stated, 'one of our missions was to break down this Communist government'.[8]: p.202 *



He was right, commies suck big time.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 5, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> There was hardly anything "free" about them


The Korean elections of 1945 would have been much more free than the military dictator the US imposed on South Korea.




Syngman Rhee - Wikipedia


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 5, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The Korean elections of 1945 would have been much more free than the military dictator the US imposed on South Korea.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No they weren't.  There's no such thing as a "free election" that the communists are running.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 5, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The Korean elections of 1945 would have been much more free than the military dictator the US imposed on South Korea.



Like all the free elections in Cuba.......


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 5, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> A "people's committee" - a gang of communists, in other words.


Korean communists fought the Japanese occupation.
Korean capitalists...not so much.
The same principle applied in Greece and Italy after WWII.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 5, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Only a certified moron would accept anything Chomsky has to say.


*Just for you, Cracker*

How the Nazis Won the War, by Noam Chomsky (Excerpted from Secrets, Lies, and Democracy)

"There was also an operation involving the Vatican, the US State Department and British intelligence, which took some of the worst Nazi criminals and used them, at first in Europe. For example, Klaus Barbie, the butcher of Lyon [France], was taken over by US intelligence and put back to work."


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 5, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Just for you, Cracker*
> 
> How the Nazis Won the War, by Noam Chomsky (Excerpted from Secrets, Lies, and Democracy)
> 
> "There was also an operation involving the Vatican, the US State Department and British intelligence, which took some of the worst Nazi criminals and used them, at first in Europe. For example, Klaus Barbie, the butcher of Lyon [France], was taken over by US intelligence and put back to work."


What's your point, jackass?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 5, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> How does going bankrupt enrich the CEO? Banks allowed so-called "liar" loans because the regulators wouldn't allow mergers unless a bank met their "diversity" requirements, which meant they had to have so many mortgages to black people on their books. The feds facilitated this loans by rating them as safe.


*You have to separate "banks" from "bankers."
Banks went bankrupt, and bankers got rich from fraudulent loans*.

BILL BLACK Pt 2/9 - Best Way to Rob a Bank is to Own One

"The bankers. 

*"The question is never what is in it for the bank, because this is looting.* 

"What’s in it for the bank? That’s the remember the title 'looting the economic underworld of bankruptcy for profit.' 

*"So, what’s in it for the bank? Bankruptcy eventually, many years later. *

"What’s in it for the banker? That’s the profit part of that title. 

"So always ask the right question in that regard, but we haven’t yet even mentioned the largest source of income to the borrower, to the loan broker."


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 5, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Yup. Saved the south from the communists.
> You still whining about that?


Saved Korea from democracy.
Bet you're sorry.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 5, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Saved Korea from democracy.
> Bet you're sorry.



Yeah, South Korean democracy today is much worse than North Korean communism.

Plus, they have much less grass in their diet. So sorry.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 6, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Sounds like a cool dude.
> What happened to him?


*Capitalists clucked-out on free elections, Piggy*

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Republic_of_Korea#Communist_takeover_in_the_North

"In December 1945, at the Moscow Conference, the Soviet Union agreed to a US proposal for a trusteeship over Korea for up to five years in the lead-up to independence. 

"Most Koreans demanded independence immediately, but Kim and the other Communists supported the trusteeship under pressure from the Soviet government. 

*"Cho Man-sik opposed the proposal at a public meeting on 4 January 1946, and disappeared into house arrest."*


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 6, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Is Chomsky still mad that the Berlin Wall fell?
> Still whining about the failure of communism?


*Still disappointed Nazis lost WWII?*

How the Nazis Won the War, by Noam Chomsky (Excerpted from Secrets, Lies, and Democracy)

"General Reinhard Gehlen was the head of German military intelligence on the eastern front. 

"That’s where the real war crimes were. 

"Now we’re talking about Auschwitz and other death camps. 

"Gehlen and his network of spies and terrorists were taken over quickly by American intelligence and returned to essentially the same roles.

"If you look at the American army’s counterinsurgency literature (a lot of which is now declassified), it begins with an analysis of the German experience in Europe, written with the cooperation of Nazi officers. 

"Everything is described from the point of view of the Nazis-which techniques for controlling resistance worked, which ones didn’t. 

"With barely a change, that was transmuted into American counterinsurgency literature. (This is discussed at some length by Michael McClintock in Instruments of Statecraft, a very good book that I’ve never seen reviewed.)"


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 6, 2021)

kaz said:


> You just have a link to a google search. I'm curious how you're going to prove IRS statistics wrong, but go for it. Provide an actual link showing that's wrong, not a link to a list of links where I'm supposed to find out what you're talking about


You can't provide a link supporting your claim, and I'm responsible?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 6, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Capitalists clucked-out on free elections, Piggy*
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Republic_of_Korea#Communist_takeover_in_the_North
> 
> ...



North Korea wants free elections?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 6, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Still disappointed Nazis lost WWII?*
> 
> How the Nazis Won the War, by Noam Chomsky (Excerpted from Secrets, Lies, and Democracy)
> 
> ...



The Nazis lost after teaming up with Stalin to invade Poland?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 6, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "Cho Man-sik opposed the proposal at a public meeting on 4 January 1946, and disappeared into house arrest."



Your hero was killed by the North Korean communists.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 6, 2021)

kaz said:


> None of that supports your moronic assertion that Americans are poor, moron. If you're at the poverty level in the US, you're in the top 10% of the world's population,


*Which is completely immaterial since poor Americans are living under a domestic economy that has been siphoning wealth upwards since Reagan, Rube:*

Income and Poverty in the United States: 2020

"Median household income was $67,521 in 2020, a decrease of 2.9 percent from the 2019 median of $69,560 (Figure 1 and Table A-1). This is the first statistically significant decline in median household income since 2011."


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 6, 2021)

kaz said:


> I'd ask which one is you, but you're the one in the white mask, aren't you? Be honest.
> 
> Here's another picture for you, racist.





kaz said:


> Notice yet again the fake Marxist defends the Democrats. You can't let your addiction go and say fuck yeah, the Democrats are racist. You're a Marxist and aren't going to protect them. Nope, you can't say that because every time Democrats are under attack, you're there to defend them proving how fake you're not a Democrat you're a Marxist ideology is


You're still lying.
I haven't voted for a Democrat OR Republican in three decades.
I don't support neoliberal economics or idiots on message boards.
Maybe you should get a clue and stop wasting my time, Turd.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 6, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> With one hand tied behind my back


Where's your other hand, Sissy?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 6, 2021)

kaz said:


> Marxist propaganda gone wild ...


*So refute it*

"Conservatism in every place and time is founded on deception. 

"The deceptions of conservatism today are especially sophisticated, simply because culture today is sufficiently democratic that the myths of earlier times will no longer suffice."

What Is Conservatism and What Is Wrong with It?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 6, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Where's your other hand, Sissy?
> View attachment 572584



Beating your ass.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 6, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *So refute it*
> 
> "Conservatism in every place and time is founded on deception.
> 
> ...



Philip Agre, what a pussy.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 6, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> They still have gulags in 2021?
> 
> Commies are the worst!!!


Any political prisoners in the US, Clown?
What percentage of US convicts had a jury trial?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 6, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Cuban intervention in Angola - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*Your link:*

"The *Cuban intervention in Angola* (codenamed Operation Carlota) began on 5 November 1975, when Cuba sent combat troops in support of the communist-aligned People's Movement for the Liberation of Angola (MPLA) against the pro-western National Union for the Total Independence of Angola (UNITA) and National Liberation Front of Angola (FNLA). 

"The intervention came after the outbreak of the Angolan Civil War, which occurred after the former Portuguese colony was granted independence after the Angolan War of Independence. 

"The civil war quickly became a proxy war between the Eastern Bloc led by the Soviet Union and the Western Bloc led by the United States. South Africa and the United States backed UNITA and the FNLA, while communist nations backed the MPLA"

*Cubans intervened on the side of those being oppressed by western imperialists.

What's wrong with that?*


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 6, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> The USSR supplied arms to communist rebels, shit for brains: Mozambique, Angola, South Africa, Congo, Ethiopia, Guinea, Morocco


In support of liberation from western imperialists.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 6, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Carbon is not destroying our planet. That's a commie myth.







Which kind of factors can impact on Ozone layer depletion ? – Scientific Scribbles


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 6, 2021)

dblack said:


> And what, pray tell, is the "right price" in your view?


*One that factors in all social cost before distributing any profit$*

Negative Externalities - Economics Help

*"Social cost*​
Social cost is the total cost to society; it includes both private and external costs.
With a negative externality the *Social Cost > Private Cost*
Negative production  externality..."​


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 6, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Which is completely immaterial since poor Americans are living under a domestic economy that has been siphoning wealth upwards since Reagan, Rube:*
> 
> Income and Poverty in the United States: 2020
> 
> "Median household income was $67,521 in 2020, a decrease of 2.9 percent from the 2019 median of $69,560 (Figure 1 and Table A-1). This is the first statistically significant decline in median household income since 2011."


That makes them wealthier than the citizens of 17 other countries.

Oh, boo hoo!


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 6, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *One that factors in all social cost before distributing any profit$*
> 
> Negative Externalities - Economics Help
> 
> ...


What's the social cost of Chernobyl?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 6, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Any political prisoners in the US, Clown?
> What percentage of US convicts had a jury trial?



Are there political prisoners in the US, twat?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 6, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Your link:*
> 
> "The *Cuban intervention in Angola* (codenamed Operation Carlota) began on 5 November 1975, when Cuba sent combat troops in support of the communist-aligned People's Movement for the Liberation of Angola (MPLA) against the pro-western National Union for the Total Independence of Angola (UNITA) and National Liberation Front of Angola (FNLA).
> 
> ...



Socialist invasions of Africa are okay with you?


----------



## dblack (Dec 6, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *One that factors in all social cost before distributing any profit$*
> 
> Negative Externalities - Economics Help
> 
> ...


Does the "right price", under socialism, have anything to do with how much people value the good or service in question? Or is that just a secondary concern?

Wondering what a socialist "Price is Right" would be like. 🤔


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 7, 2021)

22lcidw said:


> America is a tapestry of multi decade eras. One intertwining with another. Give and take. The Constitution of the United States says nothing about Capitalism, Socialism, Communism and other ways. It says Freedom. And we are failing.


*Who or what do you blame for our failing?*





Negative Externalities - Economics Help

"The personal cost of driving are buying car, petrol, your time
The negative externalities are – pollution to other people, possible accident to other other people, and time other people sit in traffic jams"
*I believe those who get rich by socializing cost in order to fund their obscene lifestyles are responsible for our slide into fascism.*


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 7, 2021)

dblack said:


> The factions are in your mind, or rather Marx's mind. That was his principal mistake: it's NOT all about "class"


*True only if poverty does NOT exist.*




Class conflict - Wikipedia

"In his treatise _Politics_, Aristotle describes the basic dimensions of class war: 'Again, because the rich are generally few in number, while the poor are many, they appear to be antagonistic, and as the one or the other prevails they form the government.'[7].

"*Aristotle also commented that 'poverty is the parent of revolution.'[8] *

"However, he did not consider this its only cause. In a society where property is distributed equally across the community, 'the nobles will be dissatisfied because they think themselves worthy of more than an equal share of honours; and this is often found to be a cause of sedition and revolution.'[9]

"Aristotle thought it wrong for the poor to seize the wealth of the rich and divide it among themselves, but he also thought it wrong for the rich to impoverish the multitude.[10]"


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 7, 2021)

dblack said:


> Does the "right price", under socialism, have anything to do with how much people value the good or service in question? Or is that just a secondary concern?
> 
> Wondering what a socialist "Price is Right" would be like. 🤔


There is no such thing as a true price in economic terms under socialism.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 7, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *True only if poverty does NOT exist.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are you actually proposing equality of incomes?  You do know what the outcome was whenever that was tried, don't you?  Answer:  mass starvation.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 7, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Wrong. That's like saying math classes divide society into two opposing factions: those who can do math and those who can't.


I think you're ignoring the equality of opportunity aspect to the question of owning the means of production as compared to a math class. While some math students have the advantage of being born to college educated parents, the curriculum doesn't discriminate between those whose ancestors were given the opportunity to buy the houses they live in while capitalism very definitely rewards those who won the birth lottery.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 7, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> I think you're ignoring the equality of opportunity aspect to the question of owning the means of production as compared to a math class. While some math students have the advantage of being born to college educated parents, the curriculum doesn't discriminate between those whose ancestors were given the opportunity to buy the houses they live in while capitalism very definitely rewards those who won the birth lottery.


Nature rewards those who won the birth lottery.  If my parents are smart, there's nothing government can do to erase that advantage, and it commits a grave injustice by trying to erase it.  

Capitalism simply accepts an historical fact.  It doesn't "give" anyone anything.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 7, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> That argument is meaningless. Anyone who wants to own property under capitalism can do so by buying property.


That claim ignores the fact white Americans have a far greater amount of wealth than other Americans; why do you ignore the reality of white supremacy in this country?




Infographic: Racial Wealth Inequality Is Rampant In The U.S.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 7, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> That claim ignores the fact white Americans have a far greater amount of wealth than other Americans; why do you ignore the reality of white supremacy in this country?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*That claim ignores the fact white Americans have a far greater amount of wealth than other Americans; why do you ignore the reality of white supremacy in this country?*

Fewer out of wedlock births, fewer dropouts, fewer felonies.

Is it any wonder they have more wealth?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 7, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> The term "exploitation" is meaningless.


*Only if your skin is white.*






The Historical Reasons Behind the U.S. Racial Wealth Gap

"The average White household in the U.S. today has amassed about seven times more wealth than the average Black household. 

"The disparity widened in the half-century since the civil rights movement, despite a wave of laws protecting against racial discrimination at work, in housing and other economic realms."


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 7, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Only if your skin is white.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So how did the average white person "exploit" black people?


----------



## dblack (Dec 7, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> So how did the average white person "exploit" black people?


"Exploit" is one of those vague euphemisms that socialists like to use. They pretend it's something bad, without ever really identifying what is bad about it. It's just a wedge to sell more state control. Of everything.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 7, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "The average White household in the U.S. today has amassed about seven times more wealth than the average Black household.



Even with you dragging down the white average?


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 7, 2021)

dblack said:


> "Exploit" is one of those vague euphemisms that socialists like to use. They pretend it's something bad, without ever really identifying what is bad about it. It's just a wedge to sell more state control. Of everything.


Marx actually believed that "exploit" was some kind of meaningful economic term, and all these prog dumbasses believe him.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 7, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Who or what controls the monopoly of violence?


The government does, moron.


----------



## dblack (Dec 7, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> The government does, moron.


Socialists have this odd contradiction that they really won't let themselves confront:  They insist that government is controlled by greedy capitalists, and in the same breath that the economy should be controlled by government.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 7, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Only if your skin is white.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



_The chasm begins with slavery, which was a huge generator of wealth for White Americans. Slavery drove the cotton economy, which enriched not just the growers but everyone from banks to shopkeepers to insurers. In 2000, economist Robert S. Browne calculated that the income produced by enslaved people for their White owners prior to 1860 was between $1.4 trillion and $4.7 trillion in modern money. In 1865, at the conclusion of the Civil War that ended slavery, freed slaves were promised 40 acres (16 hectares) of land to build an economic future for themselves. But the government reneged on the deal, and Black Americans started their freed lives empty-handed. By some estimates that land would have been worth as much as $3.1 trillion today._

Who promised freed slaves 40 acres?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 7, 2021)

dblack said:


> The idiots we elect. Some of them lust for power and riches. How do you imagine socialism would prevent them from gaining power?


I suppose it's possible that collective ownership of the means of production would significantly reduce the number of millionaires and billionaires which many of our current elected officials depend on to fund their campaigns, but how SCOTUS would interpret any new "Clean Election" laws is way above my pay grade.

Campaign finance reform in the United States - Wikipedia

When I first began posting online 12 years ago, my first thread was a call to Flush the DC Toilet by voting against every single incumbent running for reelection in POTUS and off-year elections.

The devils and details convinced me the idea wasn't viable, but I still wonder how a vast majority of US voters would feel if they woke up after a major national election to discover 90% of incumbents were no longer on the public payroll?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 7, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Government controls the monopoly on the use of force. That's pretty much the definition of government, dumbass.


Do you see any other alternatives?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 7, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> How about no one runs our society? That's called freedom.


I agree.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 7, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> How do secondary markets in stocks, for instance, exploit productive labor. Be specific.


Dividend payouts.
Stock buybacks.
Board of Directors.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 7, 2021)

dblack said:


> Nope. We need to stop government from interfering in the economy period


Someone will control the economy.
Aristocrats and the Divine Right of Kings have shown they're always available.
Is there another alternative beside democracy?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 7, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> What's your point? Are you claiming he did promise to fundamentally change America?







Fundamental enough?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 7, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Dividend payouts.
> Stock buybacks.
> Board of Directors.



How do any of those exploit productive labor? Be specific.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 7, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Can you name anyone before 1800 who wasn't a racist?


*Slavery has been recognized as a cowardly, immoral institution for thousands of years.*

"James Oglethorpe was among the first to articulate the Enlightenment case against slavery, banning it in the Province of Georgia on humanitarian grounds, and arguing against it in Parliament, and eventually encouraging his friends Granville Sharp and Hannah More to vigorously pursue the cause.[_citation needed_] 

"Soon after Oglethorpe's death in 1785, Sharp and More united with William Wilberforce and others in forming the Clapham Sect."




"The Somersett Case in 1772, in which a fugitive slave was freed with the judgement that slavery did not exist under English common law, helped launch the British movement to abolish slavery"

Abolitionism - Wikipedia


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 7, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> That's total bullshit. For one thing, in those days 14 years old was of legal age.
> 
> Furthermore, you have no idea whether Jefferson raped her. I presume you base that claim on a theory of statutory rape., which is bullshit.
> 
> The author of your article is clearly a kook.


*Can you find any evidence in support of your criticism?*

https://www.phillytrib.com/commenta...cle_f841b673-50ac-5510-8330-20d3bac6f974.html

"In my Freedom’s Journal column last week here in The Philadelphia Tribune, I exposed the lie about President George Washington’s supposed wooden teeth and disclosed the truth about them having been 'yanked from the heads of his slaves.'

White racists who read it went ballistic. 

They denied. They yelled. They screamed. They hollered. They insulted. 

"They trolled. 

"But mostly, they unwittingly made my column go viral all over social media. And for that I say, *'Thank you, racist white folks. Thank you very much!'* 

"I also say if you were mad about that Washington column, you’re gonna be livid about this Thomas Jefferson column.

"Jefferson, the third president of the United States and the man given credit for drafting the Declaration of Independence — which hypocritically proclaimed “All men [and women] are created equal' — was not only a slaveholder. 

"He was also a pedophile rapist. 

"You want proof? 

"OK."


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 7, 2021)

themirrorthief said:


> the rich like those in the democrat party will always rule get used to it


Conservatives made that same argument in defense of the divine right of kings for centuries. They were wrong then, and you are wrong about the economic system that follows capitalism.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 7, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Can you find any evidence in support of your criticism?*
> 
> https://www.phillytrib.com/commenta...cle_f841b673-50ac-5510-8330-20d3bac6f974.html
> 
> ...







LOL!


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 7, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Wrong, NAZI. Under socialism, you're still working for someone else. Show me one socialist country where the majority of the workers aren't taking orders from someone else.


*Fundamental decisions like what to produce, where to produce it, and how to distribute any surplus will be made democratically while some management or supervisory positions will rotate among qualified workers.*

Workers' self-management - Wikipedia

*"Workers' self-management*, also referred to as *labor management* and *organizational self-management*, is a form of organizational management based on self-directed work processes on the part of an organization's workforce. 

"Self-management is a defining characteristic of socialism, with proposals for self-management having appeared many times throughout the history of the socialist movement, advocated variously by democratic, libertarian and market socialists as well as anarchists and communists."


----------



## Foolardi (Dec 7, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf
> 
> "Capitalism and democracy follow different logics: unequally distributed property rights on the one hand, equal civic and political rights on the other; profit oriented trade within capitalism in contrast to the search for the common good within democracy; debate, compromise and majority decision-making within democratic politics versus hierarchical decision-making by managers and capital owners.
> 
> ...


  Government Planners ... eh.More like Commie Planners.The opposite of Milton
   Friedman's -- Free to Choose --. Because the rule that best fits Big Brother
    Government is something even a 5th grader can extrapolate.
     The Bigger the Government the Smaller the Citizen.
      It'd be like demanding that Kids in Grade school aren't equipped to have 
  paper routes.
   " The best government rests on the people,and not on the few,on
  persons and not on property,on the free development of public opinion
  and not on authority. "
           -- George Bancroft { American Historian } 1800-1891


----------



## Foolardi (Dec 7, 2021)

wamose said:


> Capitalism is what allowed our country to develop into the greatest country in the world. Central planning would have sentenced us to a perpetual state of poverty, shortages, distrust, no freedom and a total dependence on government followed by economic collapse and chaos. You people who would rather be a part of the "collective" should pick one of those great Marxist destinations and go there. It'll be good for your head.


 Take it from the Biggest Commie in the last Half Century.
   He should know.
    " Capitalism isn't just an unjust economic system.It's a way of
     life that leads to corruption of important values.Television is only
  one example. " -- Nikita Khrushchov { Soviet Russian leader }.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 7, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Fundamental decisions like what to produce, where to produce it, and how to distribute any surplus will be made democratically while some management or supervisory positions will rotate among qualified workers.*
> 
> Workers' self-management - Wikipedia
> 
> ...


In other words,  decisions aren't made democratically.  The workers are still working for someone else.  That person is likely to be far more oppressive than a manager in a private economy.


----------



## Foolardi (Dec 7, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Fundamental decisions like what to produce, where to produce it, and how to distribute any surplus will be made democratically while some management or supervisory positions will rotate among qualified workers.*
> 
> Workers' self-management - Wikipedia
> 
> ...


  I get it.Like F.D.R.'s Overuse of his WPA. Works Progress Administration.
   Which was used as example in Obama's Very first Spending bill.
    Within weeks of taking office.His American Recovery and Reinvestment act of 2009
  launched in febuary of that year.Somewhere in the neighborhood of $ 862 Billion.
   It grew in weeks from $ 787 Billion. Alan Greenspan {then Fed Chair } cautioned that
   most of it will not even see the light of day.By fall only around 10% was put into effect.
    It was supposedly going to be used for Shovel ready jobs.Building Roads and Bridges.
    Same blather Biden talked up the last year.Chalk it up to Feel Good Talk.
   No where within a country mile of what President Eisenhower managed with his
   building of the Interstate Highway System.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 7, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Fundamental enough?


No he didn't.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 8, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Dividend payouts.
> Stock buybacks.
> Board of Directors.


And?


----------



## Viktor (Dec 8, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf
> 
> "Capitalism and democracy follow different logics: unequally distributed property rights on the one hand, equal civic and political rights on the other; profit oriented trade within capitalism in contrast to the search for the common good within democracy; debate, compromise and majority decision-making within democratic politics versus hierarchical decision-making by managers and capital owners.
> 
> ...


You are comparing apples and oranges. Capitalism is an economic system in which the means of production and the places that sell the goods are privately owned. Allocation of resources is done with the profit motive.
Democracy is a political system in which the citizens vote to make decisions on the laws to be made and who is to run the system. The US Constitution is a political blueprint for a government and justice system.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 8, 2021)

Viktor said:


> You are comparing apples and oranges. Capitalism is an economic system in which the means of production and the places that sell the goods are privately owned. Allocation of resources is done with the profit motive


*There's a tension between the profit motive and one person/one vote that is transforming US democracy into an oligarchy:*

https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf

"During the first postwar decades, tensions between the two were moderated through the socio-political embedding of capitalism by an interventionist tax and welfare state.

"Yet, the financialization of capitalism since the 1980s has broken the precarious capitalist-democratic compromise. Socioeconomic inequality has risen continuously and has transformed directly into political inequality."

*Democracy and capitalism are parts of an interdisciplinary branch of the social sciences that focuses on interrelationships between individuals, governments and public policy.

Political Economics describes any government policy with an economic impact, and in the US that entails capitalism and democracy.*

What Is Political Economy?.


----------



## dblack (Dec 8, 2021)

Viktor said:


> You are comparing apples and oranges. Capitalism is an economic system in which the means of production and the places that sell the goods are privately owned. Allocation of resources is done with the profit motive.
> Democracy is a political system in which the citizens vote to make decisions on the laws to be made and who is to run the system. The US Constitution is a political blueprint for a government and justice system.


I don't really get the deification of democracy. It's a reasonable mechanism for making decisions when it's imperative we're all on the same page. But most decisions facing society don't require everyone to be on the same page. ie in most cases we don't need to take a vote and force everyone to take the same path. But that's what socialists want. I'm not sure why.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 8, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *Conservatives believe rich aristocrats deserve to decide what to produce,*
> 
> Why would we let poor morons like you decide what to produce?
> 
> ...



So, how much does the productive economy have to shrink in order to continue sucking-up an exponentially growing volume of interest and stock-price gains to cover all this corporate, business, and personal debt, Rich-Bitch?

Debt and Power | Michael Hudson


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 8, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> So, how much does the productive economy have to shrink in order to continue sucking-up an exponentially growing volume of interest and stock-price gains to cover all this corporate, business, and personal debt, Rich-Bitch?
> 
> Debt and Power | Michael Hudson



Why do you feel interest and stock price gains take money out of the economy?

Is it because you're a marxist moron?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 8, 2021)

Flash said:


> However, every year that money I earned by working hard is taken away from me by the filthy ass government and given away to the worthless welfare queens that support the elected officials that take the money away. Like the asshole Negro voting block of the destructive Democrat Party.


Bigots gotta bitch.





How much money would you earn without "the filthy ass government"?


----------



## Flash (Dec 8, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Bigots gotta bitch.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You are confused Moon Bat.

The assholes are the welfare queens, Illegals and retarded Libtards that want the the US to be a Socialist shithole.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 8, 2021)

dblack said:


> Nope. It's not. That's a lie.


Leaving the decision making to someone else is a requirement for working in a capitalist enterprise is NOT a lie, it is reality which probably explains why those who believe in "small government" fail to grasp how every economy is planned by someone.


----------



## dblack (Dec 8, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Leaving the decision making to someone else is a requirement for working in a capitalist enterprise is NOT a lie, it is reality which probably explains why those who believe in "small government" fail to grasp how every economy is planned by someone.


Ahhh... lying again. The usual dodging and equivocation. Do you EVER stand behind your claims?

Here's your original lie:

"It is required under the capitalist system *just as the serf was required to work his lord's land for his entire life and slaves were destined to serve their masters.*"

Serfs were slaves - they were _owned_ by their "lord", much like you want employees to be _owned_ by the state. In a free market, no one is owned. I know that gnaws at you, but that's how freedom works. Sorry.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 8, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Name a country that gave women the vote in 1789.


Women's suffrage - Wikipedia

"The first place in the world to award and maintain women's suffrage was New Jersey in 1776 (though in 1807 this was reverted so that only white men could vote).[2]"


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 8, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Women's suffrage - Wikipedia
> 
> "The first place in the world to award and maintain women's suffrage was New Jersey in 1776 (though in 1807 this was reverted so that only white men could vote).[2]"


So America was the first country in the World to grant women's suffrage.  Yeah, America sure is a terrible country.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 8, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Women's suffrage - Wikipedia
> 
> "The first place in the world to award and maintain women's suffrage was New Jersey in 1776 (though in 1807 this was reverted so that only white men could vote).[2]"


_https://www.historycolorado.org/story/womens-history/2019/07/25/which-state-had-womens-suffrage-first_​
_Chronologically, the first state in the union in which women voted was New Jersey. The original 1776 New Jersey State Constitution provided suffrage to its citizens without mentioning gender or race—the only requirements were that they be “inhabits of this State” who were “of full age” and “worth fifty pounds proclamation money.” That is, all adults who owned at least fifty pounds worth of property were eligible to vote. This was later reinforced by a much more explicit ruling by the state’s supreme court in the 1790s, which made it clear that women held the vote in New Jersey._​


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 8, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> There is no right to any of those. You mean any "human right" that can only be implemented by initiating force against innocent people.


The right to education, clean air and water, and medical care trump any right to private property, and only indoctrinated slaves believe otherwise. Implementing the right of private property has murdered millions of innocent people,


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 8, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> You never saved/invested any money because.....billionaires are pigs?
> 
> You taught them a lesson, eh comrade?


A lesson you'll never learn, Piggy.


----------



## dblack (Dec 8, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The right to education, clean air and water, and medical care trump any right to private property, and only indoctrinated slaves believe otherwise. Implementing the right of private property has murdered millions of innocent people,


Free shit!!!!!


----------



## dblack (Dec 8, 2021)

dblack said:


> Free shit!!!!!


The right to make other people give you stuff.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 8, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> A lesson you'll never learn, Piggy.



You're right, I'll never learn your lesson of never saving and never investing.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 8, 2021)

dblack said:


> In general, when liberals or maxists use the term "human right", they mean "free shit".







*"The need to be liberal*​"Many years ago, in the age of tyrant rulers only the ones who ruled could live like we all are living today. 

"You might ask here, what exactly in our life is pointed when it’s said: 'live like us'.

"*It’s the freedom and liberty to fulfil our needs and necessities, the feeling of being human and bearer of food, clothes and shelter. *

"What do you think gives a person all these liberties? 

"What makes them feel protected? 

"What is the biggest source of their contentment? 

"It’s the recognition of human rights."

What are the basic human rights?

*And only a strong democratic government can guarantee such rights.*


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 8, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The right to education, clean air and water, and medical care trump any right to private property, and only indoctrinated slaves believe otherwise. Implementing the right of private property has murdered millions of innocent people,


There is no  right to education, clean air and water or medical care, period.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 8, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Sounds super groovy!!
> 
> When was this tradition followed?
> 
> Post your 5 favorite examples.


----------



## dblack (Dec 8, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> What do you think gives a person all these liberties?


What liberties? If you're talking about all the goods and services you've declared to be "rights", I guess it would be whomever you try to take them from. It's never made much sense to me. Maybe you can clarify. Probably not


georgephillip said:


> What are the basic human rights?


As you have characterized them, they are goods and services that others must provide you. You're claiming a right to demand the service of others. Others might not comply. They might tell you to get fucked. And then, you'll whip out the guns and the inherent violence of your vision will be obvious.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 8, 2021)

georgephillip said:


>


We'll take that to mean "never."


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 8, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *"The need to be liberal*​"Many years ago, in the age of tyrant rulers only the ones who ruled could live like we all are living today.
> 
> "You might ask here, what exactly in our life is pointed when it’s said: 'live like us'.
> 
> ...


Those aren't liberties.  If your policies were ever implement, we would all be starving.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 8, 2021)

georgephillip said:


>



No examples?

I'm shocked!!!


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 8, 2021)

dblack said:


> ecause you're a douchebag propagandist. Also, I don't think you question is genuine.


Trump ran to the left of Hillary on issues like NAFTA, but it's hard to see him as any kind of populist other than a corporate version.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 8, 2021)

dblack said:


> Neither does mine, Mr. Strawman.


*Does your vision of democracy perceive a threat from private power as FDR described it?*

"[T]he liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. *That, in its essence, is fascism—ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power.*[3][4][5] [...] 

"Statistics of the Bureau of Internal Revenue reveal the following amazing figures for 1935: *'Ownership of corporate assets: Of all corporations reporting from every part of the Nation, one-tenth of 1 percent of them owned 52 percent of the assets of all of them.'"

Corporate capitalism - Wikipedia*


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 8, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Does your vision of democracy perceive a threat from private power as FDR described it?*
> 
> "[T]he liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. *That, in its essence, is fascism—ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power.*[3][4][5] [...]
> 
> ...


A smart person feared FDR more than any "private power."


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 8, 2021)

dblack said:


> That's because government is for sale. When government meddles in the economy, business meddles in government


*Every economy is planned.
If it isn't planned democratically, it will be directed by private bankers.
Private central bankers protect financial interests instead of the economy as a whole.*

"Protecting financial interests means sustaining growth in their product, debt overhead, instead of protecting the economy from finance and its bad loans that create a burdensome overhead for families and business." 


Debt and Power | Michael Hudson

"Until 1913 in the United States the Treasury did almost everything that the Federal Reserve is doing today. It moved money around the country. It had 12 districts. 

"It intervened in markets. 

"It did what a central bank did. 

*"But then JP Morgan and the bankers essentially anticipated Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan, and pressed for a privatized central bank run out of Wall Street, Boston and Philadelphia, not Washington*.

They excluded Washington from the Fed’s board so as not to let the Treasury have a voice on it.

"*Their logic was that banking should only be regulated by the private sector, because only in that way could they turn the government from a democracy into an oligarchy."*


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 8, 2021)

dblack said:


> ou're fucking around playing head games. That's all marxist twats can do because they're selling a steaming pile of totalitarian horseshit.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 8, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Every economy is planned.
> If it isn't planned democratically, it will be directed by private bankers.
> Private central bankers protect financial interests instead of the economy as a whole.*
> 
> ...



Privatized? LOL!


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 9, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> o make profits, capitalists have to satisfy the needs of customers.







Capitalists profit by privatizing profit and socializing cost.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 9, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Tax and regulate too much, pesky corporations move away.
> Hard to tax something that isn't there anymore.







Problems of Capitalism - Economics Help


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 9, 2021)

dblack said:


> That's the end game, to be sure. Totalitarian rule is your hard on.


Majority rule is not totalitarian, but your side offers little else:




Private tyrant?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 9, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> So long as the receiving bank trusted the issuing bank,


Are you that fucking stupid?
What possible motive would one private banker have for trusting another WITHOUT fear of government prosecution?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 9, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Capitalists profit by privatizing profit and socializing cost.



If you don't have a useful, in demand product, you'll never have any sales.

That's why you never made any money.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 9, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Problems of Capitalism - Economics Help



You have the chart for communism?
Probably 30 pages long, eh tovarisch?


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 9, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Capitalists profit by privatizing profit and socializing cost.


How did Capitalists do that in 1910?


----------



## dblack (Dec 9, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Majority rule is not totalitarian ...


But socialism, ultimately is. Democracy is fine when its scope and use is strictly constrained - ie it's only used when necessary. But socialists want "both society and the economy run democratically" - and that's everything. That's what's totalitarian about your goals.



> but your side offers little else:
> Private tyrant?



I don't play the "sides" game. But how about this? The day the Koch brothers, or any other "private tyrants", have you arrested, be sure and post. I'll admit you were right. For now, you're not.


----------



## Flash (Dec 9, 2021)




----------



## georgephillip (Dec 9, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> The modern government subsidized economists all oppose the gold standard because it prevents the government from stealing your savings.


So now Wall Street banks and corporations steal your homes, savings, and pensions?

Is that your idea of




"William McKinley ran for president on the basis of the gold standard."

Gold standard - Wikipedia


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 9, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> hat's irrelevant. You claimed there were socialist libertarians. That's a contradiction in terms.


Only for ignorant, red-necked crackers
Libertarian socialism - Wikipedia


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 9, 2021)

dblack said:


> which is, I guess, why they feel justified in using the word 'libertarian'. But yeah, socialism contradicts any conception of liberty that I know of.


*What's capital's conception of liberty?*

Libertarian socialism - Wikipedia

"Libertarian socialism is anti-capitalist and can be distinguished from capitalist and right-libertarian principles *which concentrate economic power in the hands of those who own the most capital."*


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 9, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Slavery couldn't invent capitalism anymore than the alphabet could write the Bible. Capitalize didn't need slavery, as was irrefutably demonstrated by the fact that it continued on after the war when slavery had been abolished.


"The bodies of the enslaved served as America’s largest financial asset, and they were forced to maintain America’s most exported commodity. In 60 years, from 1801 to 1862, the amount of cotton picked daily by an enslaved person increased 400 percent.

*"The profits from cotton propelled the US into a position as one of the leading economies in the world, and made the South its most prosperous region*.

"The ownership of enslaved people increased wealth for Southern planters so much that by the dawn of the Civil War, *the Mississippi River Valley had more millionaires per capita than any other region."*




*How slavery became America’s first big business*


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 9, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> In 60 years, from 1801 to 1862, the amount of cotton picked daily by an enslaved person increased 400 percent.



Cotton gin!!!


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 9, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "The bodies of the enslaved served as America’s largest financial asset, and they were forced to maintain America’s most exported commodity. In 60 years, from 1801 to 1862, the amount of cotton picked daily by an enslaved person increased 400 percent.
> 
> *"The profits from cotton propelled the US into a position as one of the leading economies in the world, and made the South its most prosperous region*.
> 
> ...


America's economic success was not solely due to cotton.  That's a commie myth


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 9, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> So now Wall Street banks and corporations steal your homes, savings, and pensions?
> 
> Is that your idea of
> 
> ...


How do they steal your homes, savings, and pensions?  We know beyond all doubt that the government steals our homes, savings, and pensions.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 9, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> The Soviet Union was better than Enron? DURR


Less corrupt?


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 9, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *What's capital's conception of liberty?*
> 
> Libertarian socialism - Wikipedia
> 
> "Libertarian socialism is anti-capitalist and can be distinguished from capitalist and right-libertarian principles *which concentrate economic power in the hands of those who own the most capital."*


The term "libertarian socialism" is an oxymoron.  You aren't free when government controls your livelihood.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 9, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Less corrupt?


Enron didn't do anything wrong.  All the charges were thrown out by higher courts.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 9, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Less corrupt?



Enron murdered tens of millions fewer Russians than the Soviet Union.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 10, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Are you jealous?


Jealous of greedy whores?





New President Good News For Argentina And Latin America


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 10, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> The type you were whining about in post #1977.


The type that transfers wealth from the 1% to the 99%.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 10, 2021)

dblack said:


> Which, as always, in no way addresses or contradicts my post. You want everything subject to your sacred majority rule.


I want the economy to function for the benefit of a majority of its participants.
Do you see a way of accomplishing that without majority rule?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 10, 2021)

dblack said:


> Fuck you and your phony questions. You know goddamned well which side, you're just playing more stupid agitprop games. You've turned out to be a real piece of shit troll.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 10, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> They are not on the "state power" side of the wall.


If they (corporations) don't exist without state charter, how are they NOT on the "state power" side of a hypothetical wall between the state and the economy?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 10, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The type that transfers wealth from the 1% to the 99%.



You think deflation does that? How?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 10, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> If they (corporations) don't exist without state charter, how are they NOT on the "state power" side of a hypothetical wall between the state and the economy?



What state powers does a corporation wield?


----------



## dblack (Dec 10, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *What's capital's conception of liberty?*
> 
> Libertarian socialism - Wikipedia
> 
> "Libertarian socialism is anti-capitalist and can be distinguished from capitalist and right-libertarian principles *which concentrate economic power in the hands of those who own the most capital."*


Economic power is radically different than political power. I don't suppose you'll ever acknowledge that. And as long as you refuse to do that, I'll be unable to take you seriously.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 10, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Russia is going to pay all the debt it incurred to the USA during WW II?


*Right after Standard Oil compensates Russia for the millions of dead civilians inflicted by Hitler's for-profit war machine:*

https://www.voltairenet.org/IMG/pdf/Sutton_Wall_Street_and_Hitler.pdf

"The contribution made by American capitalism to German war preparations before 1940 can only be described as phenomenal.

"It was certainly crucial to German military capabilities.

"For instance, in 1934 Germany produced domestically only 300,000 tons of natural petroleum products and less than 800,000 tons of synthetic gasoline; the balance was imported.

"Yet, ten years later in World War II, after transfer of the Standard Oil of New Jersey hydrogenation patents and technology to I. G. Farben (used to produce synthetic gasoline from coal), *Germany produced about 6 1/2 million tons of oil — of which 85 percent (5 1/2 million tons) was synthetic oil using the Standard Oil hydrogenation process."*


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 10, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Right after Standard Oil compensates Russia for the millions of dead civilians inflicted by Hitler's for-profit war machine:*
> 
> https://www.voltairenet.org/IMG/pdf/Sutton_Wall_Street_and_Hitler.pdf
> 
> ...


Why should Standard Oil pay anything to Russian dictators?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 10, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Democracy kills itself. It's a self limiting disease. It's not a stable form of governmen


*US two party, winner-take-all democracy is designed to fail, but that doesn't mean there are no alternatives aside from oligarchy:*

In a struggle between oligarchy and democracy, something must give | Michael Hudson

"This problem would not exist if the United States had a European-style parliamentary system that would enable a third party to obtain space on the ballots in all 50 states. 

"If this were Europe, the new party of Bernie Sanders, AOC et al. would exceed 50 percent of the votes, leaving the Wall Street democrats with about the same 8 percent share that similar neoliberal democratic parties have in Europe (e.g., Germany’s hapless neoliberalized Social Democrats), that is, Klobocop territory as voters moved to the left. 

"The 'voting Democrats,' the 99 Percent, would win a majority leaving the Old Neoliberal Democrats in the dust."




Forward Party - Wikipedia


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 10, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *US two party, winner-take-all democracy is designed to fail, but that doesn't mean there are no alternatives aside from oligarchy:*
> 
> In a struggle between oligarchy and democracy, something must give | Michael Hudson
> 
> ...


All democracies are designed to fail.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 10, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> It tells you that a corporation is a private corporation. It isn't required to follow the "one share/one vote" model you propose.


*Public vs private corporations?
Are you saying corporations exist that don't follow the "one share/one vote" principle?*

Difference Between Public and Private Corporations

"Difference Between Public and Private Corporation​"Both public and private companies must have:


An annual meeting
A board of directors
A record of meetings
A shareholder list in addition to their holdings
"However, there are some major differences in how a private company and a public company operate"


----------



## dblack (Dec 10, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> I want the economy to function for the benefit of a majority of its participants.


To hell with minorities. Majority rule for every. fucking. thing!


> Do you see a way of accomplishing that without majority rule?



I don't want to accomplish that.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 10, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Capitalism is capitalism. You either follow it or let the government run corporations.


*Industrial capitalism seeks profits.
Finance capitalism seeks capital gains mainly in the form of higher land prices and for other rent-yielding assets, partially as a means of avoiding taxation.*




*"Rentier capitalism* is a term currently used to describe the belief in economic practices of monopolization of access to any kind of property (physical, financial, intellectual, etc.) *and gaining significant amounts of profit without contribution to society."*

Rentier capitalism - Wikipedia


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 10, 2021)

struth said:


> everybody has the same opportunity to buy shares if it’s a publicly traded company


You have the same opportunity as one of the Walton heirs?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 10, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> How did they frame him?
> Spell it out.


The corporate state came for human rights lawyer Steven Donziger — and we're next


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 10, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> gaining significant amounts of profit without contribution to society."



But enough about communists.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 10, 2021)

elektra said:


> I make over almost 200k. I pay more in taxes than you make in in 3 years.
> 
> The capitalist corporation I work for pays extremely well. In 2 years I could have most anybody here, making an easy 100k a year.







$3,000-per-week prostitute reveals exactly how big a man needs to be


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 10, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> You have the same opportunity as one of the Walton heirs?



I can buy WalMart shares, you can buy WalMart shares, a Walton can buy WalMart shares.

Well, maybe you can't. LOL!


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 10, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The corporate state came for human rights lawyer Steven Donziger — and we're next



They framed him by making him commit fraud?

Those bastards!!!

LOL!


----------



## struth (Dec 10, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> You have the same opportunity as one of the Walton heirs?


when it comes to Common Stock traded on the Stock Exchange.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 10, 2021)

elektra said:


> Pm your address, I am sure you need free food. I have no problem sending you rice and beans.


Pm your pimp.
He can help with those open sores in your throat.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 10, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> You love those useless socialist "authors..


Got any favorite writers, Rube?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 10, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Got any favorite writers, Rube?



Any of your marxists are good for a laugh.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 10, 2021)

dblack said:


> No, that's your alternative. The only one, apparently, that you can imagine. That must suck


Rich morons are the last rulers I would want to live under; however, those who favor private tyrants probably believe otherwise.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 10, 2021)

dblack said:


> As long as we don't try to mix the two, it's all good.


----------



## struth (Dec 10, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Rich morons are the last rulers I would want to live under; however, those who favor private tyrants probably believe otherwise.
> View attachment 574233


Engels was a wealthy man


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 10, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Rich morons are the last rulers I would want to live under; however, those who favor private tyrants probably believe otherwise.
> View attachment 574233



They're smarter than you poor morons.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 10, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Yes, that does scare me. It should scare anyone with a brain.


A society without money scares you?


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 10, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Industrial capitalism seeks profits.
> Finance capitalism seeks capital gains mainly in the form of higher land prices and for other rent-yielding assets, partially as a means of avoiding taxation.*
> 
> 
> ...


Capitalism doesn't seek anything, moron.  Your anthrophomising is horseshit.  Your terms are bullshit.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 10, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Rich morons are the last rulers I would want to live under; however, those who favor private tyrants probably believe otherwise.
> View attachment 574233


Has a so-called "private tyrant" ever executed anyone?


----------



## dblack (Dec 10, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Has a so-called "private tyrant" ever executed anyone?


One might find an example, or two, of that sort of thing.  But for real carnage (genocide, warfare, etc ..) you need yourself a government.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 11, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Yeah, we all know that NAZIs believe in social darwinism. What most people don't know is that the NAZIs got the idea from American "liberals.


You mean American "crackers"




Why the Nazis studied American race laws for inspiration


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 11, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> You mean American "crackers"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No, I mean people like Woodrow Wilson and Margret Sanger.

You really are ignorant of the history of your ideology, aren't you?


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 11, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *You're forgetting Alfred Rosenberg*
> 
> Social Darwinism - Wikipedia
> 
> ...


Wilson was spouting the theory of Social Darwinism before WW I, moron.  So was Margret Sanger.  That makes it clear that the NAZIs didn't invent the concept.  American liberals did.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 11, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> View attachment 571459
> 
> 
> View attachment 571458
> ...


"Fully gold backed" is a term you invented, not me. It's just the complement of your term "partially gold backed: which no economist ever used.  Currencies are either gold backed, or they aren't.  There's no such thing as "partial gold backing."  

If you're going to discuss economics, then use the terms economics uses, and not some hocus pocus you or Karl Marx invented.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 11, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Lower capital gains tax rates and stock buybacks distort the market.
> When was the last time a politician legally shot someone?


You still haven't explained what makes a wealthy person a "tyrant."


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 11, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Gold-bugs have such thin skin.
> 
> And weak understanding of banking.
> 
> ...


Yes, I do.  What's your point?

I favor private currency so government can't use it as a means to loot everyone who has a bank account or any financial instrument denominated in the units of that currency.  Private currency is a means to prevent the government from robbing you.    Unfortunately there are too many numskulls who are happy to allow the government to pick their pockets.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 11, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> "Fully gold backed" is a term you invented, not me. It's just the complement of your term "partially gold backed: which no economist ever used. Currencies are either gold backed, or they aren't. There's no such thing as "partial gold backing."



If the bank can't redeem all their notes with gold, is it fully convertible? Is it fully backed by gold?
What good does it do you to hold a one ounce note, if the gold is gone when you go to the bank?
I know why a bank would like to hold 1000 ounces of gold and issue notes worth 5000 ounces.
Do you?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 11, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Yes, I do.  What's your point?
> 
> I favor private currency so government can't use it as a means to loot everyone who has a bank account or any financial instrument denominated in the units of that currency.  Private currency is a means to prevent the government from robbing you.    Unfortunately there are too many numskulls who are happy to allow the government to pick their pockets.



*Yes, I do. *

Great. What is it?

*I favor private currency so government can't use it as a means to loot everyone who has a bank account or any financial instrument denominated in the units of that currency.*

How does a Bank of America gold currency prevent the government from looting your bank account?


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 11, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> If the bank can't redeem all their notes with gold, is it fully convertible? Is it fully backed by gold?
> What good does it do you to hold a one ounce note, if the gold is gone when you go to the bank?
> I know why a bank would like to hold 1000 ounces of gold and issue notes worth 5000 ounces.
> Do you?


All you rationalizing doesn't mean a thing.  When economists use the term, "gold backed currency," that's what they mean.  No economist ever used the term "partially gold backed."  You claim to be knowledgeable about economics, yet you are obviously making up your own terms


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 11, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *Yes, I do. *
> 
> Great. What is it?
> 
> ...



You claim to be knowledgeable about economics, yet you don't know the answer to that question?


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 11, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> If the bank can't redeem all their notes with gold, is it fully convertible? Is it fully backed by gold?
> What good does it do you to hold a one ounce note, if the gold is gone when you go to the bank?
> I know why a bank would like to hold 1000 ounces of gold and issue notes worth 5000 ounces.
> Do you?


I've told you the answer to this question a dozen times already.  I'm not going to keep repeating myself.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 11, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> All you rationalizing doesn't mean a thing.  When economists use the term, "gold backed currency," that's what they mean.  No economist ever used the term "partially gold backed."  You claim to be knowledgeable about economics, yet you are obviously making up your own terms



Bank of America holds 1000 ounces of gold.
They issue 5000 ounces of notes. What's in it for them?
Why do you feel their notes protect you?

Explain your feelz.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 11, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> You claim to be knowledgeable about economics, yet you don't know the answer to that question?



I know you can't explain it.










						Capitalism is NOT Democratic: Democracy is NOT Capitalist
					

How did those evil owners force you to work for them?  They tricked him. They told him there would be cake.



					www.usmessageboard.com
				




Dude!

In less than 3 weeks, it went down to $1783.





Your gold-backed currency lost 3.5% in less than 3 weeks.

That's worse than Biden inflation. LOL!


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 11, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Bank of America holds 1000 ounces of gold.
> They issue 5000 ounces of notes. What's in it for them?
> Why do you feel their notes protect you?
> 
> Explain your feelz.


It doesn't matter what you believe is reasonable.  That's how economists define the term.  Take it up with them.

Apparently you're theory is that no country has ever had a gold backed currency.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 11, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> I've told you the answer to this question a dozen times already.  I'm not going to keep repeating myself.



How much is Bank of America going to make off of you with their notes?


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 11, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> I know you can't explain it.
> 
> View attachment 574538
> 
> ...


I've already explained it multiple times.  You are just too stupid to recognize it.  

What are your charts supposed to prove?


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 11, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> How much is Bank of America going to make off of you with their notes?


What difference does that make?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 11, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> It doesn't matter what you believe is reasonable.  That's how economists define the term.  Take it up with them.
> 
> Apparently you're theory is that no country has ever had a gold backed currency.



No country has ever had 100% of the gold needed to redeem all their notes.

Private banks had even less. If there is a run, I hope you're first in line.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 11, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> I've already explained it multiple times.  You are just too stupid to recognize it.
> 
> What are your charts supposed to prove?



You were wrong. You said it wouldn't drop below $1800.

Were you confused?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 11, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> What difference does that make?



You think they're going to all that trouble as a favor to clowns like you? DURR.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 11, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> No country has ever had 100% of the gold needed to redeem all their notes.
> 
> Private banks had even less. If there is a run, I hope you're first in line.


Are you saying no country has ever had a gold standard?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 11, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Are you saying no country has ever had a gold standard?



I'm saying, "No country has ever had 100% of the gold needed to redeem all their notes"

Do you need me to say it again?


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 11, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> I'm saying, "No country has ever had 100% of the gold needed to redeem all their notes"
> 
> Do you need me to say it again?


No one is arguing that.  You have been claiming that if there isn't sufficient gold in the vault to pay out 100% of the issued note value on the same day, that it's not a gold backed currency.  So you are saying a gold backed currency has never existed.

Can you find an economist who agrees with your position?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 11, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> You have been claiming that if there isn't sufficient gold in the vault to pay out 100% of the issued note value on the same day, that it's not a gold backed currency.



If you can only convert a portion of your notes into gold, do the notes protect you from inflation?

*So you are saying a gold backed currency has never existed.*

No. I'm saying that if there is a bank run on your private gold currency, you may lose.

Bank of America will make money on their 1000 ounces of gold backing 5000 ounces of notes.
Who are they making that profit from? From you?


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 11, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> If you can only convert a portion of your notes into gold, do the notes protect you from inflation?
> 
> *So you are saying a gold backed currency has never existed.*
> 
> ...


What the practical effects of a fractional reserve currency are isn't up for debate here.  The issue is what the term "gold backed currency" means.  According to your definition, there has never been a gold backed currency in the history of the world.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 11, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> What the practical effects of a fractional reserve currency are isn't up for debate here.  The issue is what the term "gold backed currency" means.  According to your definition, there has never been a gold backed currency in the history of the world.



I'm debating the claim that a private gold currency stops the government from looting your bank account. If you can't actually turn the currency into gold that appears to make it even more difficult to stop the government looting. Right?

Where should the ratio of gold to issued notes be set?
20%? 5%? Would 1% be enough to protect you from inflation?


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 11, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> I'm debating the claim that a private gold currency stops the government from looting your bank account. If you can't actually turn the currency into gold that appears to make it even more difficult to stop the government looting. Right?
> 
> Where should the ratio of gold to issued notes be set?
> 20%? 5%? Would 1% be enough to protect you from inflation?


If so, you are changing the subject.  Previously you were objecting to calling a currency where every note couldn't be converted to gold on the same day as not a gold backed currency.  Is that your definition of the term or not?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 11, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> If so, you are changing the subject.  Previously you were objecting to calling a currency where every note couldn't be converted to gold on the same day as not a gold backed currency.  Is that your definition of the term or not?



I promise I have an ounce of gold.

I'm going to issue 1 million notes, each convertible to 1 ounce.

How many can I put you down for?

It's a gold backed currency. Guaranteed to protect you from inflation 
and government looting. Limited time only. Free shipping. Act now.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 11, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> I promise I have an ounce of gold.
> 
> I'm going to issue 1 million notes, each convertible to 1 ounce.
> 
> ...


Address the question I asked.  I'm not interested in your irrelevant homework assignments.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 11, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Address the question I asked.  I'm not interested in your irrelevant homework assignments.



You don't like my gold backed currency?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 11, 2021)

Samofvt said:


> Right away, the first four in the list, Moldova, Armenia, Croatia, Slovenia, are all known to be war torn unstable regions that participate in straight up ethnic cleansing (kind of like our democrats' cancel culture, except there they just kill the people they don't like and bury their bodies in mass graves).


*Not unlike the millions of enslaved Africans and murdered Native Americans that launched US capitalists on their blood-stained Empire.*

15 Socialist Countries that Have Succeeded

"Moldova only scores 50 out of 100 in financial freedom while government spending and tax burden stand respectively at 71 and 94. 

"*This implies that the government is spending extensively on public services like healthcare and education while increasing taxes on private wealth* and it seems to be working in its favor.

"Moldova has a high score of 72.58 in social progress but only 33 in innovation. It ranks 86th in global competitiveness."


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 11, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Not unlike the millions of enslaved Africans and murdered Native Americans that launched US capitalists on their blood-stained Empire.*
> 
> 15 Socialist Countries that Have Succeeded
> 
> ...



Do they accept poor old whiney commies as immigrants?
Let us know when you're leaving.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 12, 2021)

Samofvt said:


> Portugal, with 19.5% of it's Population below poverty line or at risk of poverty or social exclusion (AROPE, 2019), is not exactly a stellar example, now is it? Spain is worse, with 25.3% below the poverty line or at risk of poverty or social exclusion (AROPE, 2019). According to one source (ing.com), "Spain's economic downturn in 2020 is likely to be the worst of all eurozone countries".


And the problems in those eurozone countries stem from the pro-bank and anti-labor regulations written into the Lisbon and Maastricht treaties. 

Neoliberal capitalism is plundering Portugal and Spain to an even greater extent than it is in the US which is exactly what reasonable people would expect when tax and public spending policy is taken away from governments and turned over to the banking centers.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 12, 2021)

Samofvt said:


> Compare those "successful socialist" countries' poverty level to the USA, which is at about 10% (US Census Bureau). Over time, our rate of poverty continues to climb the closer we get to implementing those same socialist "government runs all" programs.


How does the number of medical bankruptcies or student debt levels in "those successful socialist" countries compare to the US?




U.S. consumer debt is now above levels hit during the 2008 financial crisis


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 12, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> So don't buy any stock and sell the stock you already own.


When greedy pigs spend millions buying back their own stock, every dollar used is a dollar that isn't hiring more employees, improving marketing, acquiring a competitor, developing new products, or otherwise growing their business.

The Pros and Cons of Stock Buybacks for Investors


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 12, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How does the number of medical bankruptcies or student debt levels in "those successful socialist" countries compare to the US?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No medical or student loan bankruptcies in Cuba.
Of course not much education or medical care there either.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 12, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> When greedy pigs spend millions buying back their own stock, every dollar used is a dollar that isn't hiring more employees, improving marketing, acquiring a competitor, developing new products, or otherwise growing their business.



It's awful!

The people who sell their stocks to the company either hide the money or burn it for heat, eh?


----------



## Samofvt (Dec 13, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Not unlike the millions of enslaved Africans and murdered Native Americans that launched US capitalists on their blood-stained Empire.*
> 
> 15 Socialist Countries that Have Succeeded
> 
> ...



A) The US paid a heavy price for the abomination that was slavery and those atrocities committed against Native Americans: it's called the Civil War, and took place over 150 years ago, in case you haven't read any history books lately.  Thankfully, the values that won out then DEFINE what this country is today.

B) The atrocities being committed there are still happening today in modern times: apparently the ruling socialist governments haven't gained an appreciation for human life.  Nor have they made any progress toward achieving allowing their people to achieve humane living conditions if you consider the poverty level.

I believe if we can keep socialism and its evils from prevailing, the USA will continue to be a beacon of hope and liberty for the world, as it has been for over a century.  Remember, all those immigrants who flood our borders are running from places with a socialist and inhumane system of government.


----------



## Samofvt (Dec 13, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> And the problems in those eurozone countries stem from the pro-bank and anti-labor regulations written into the Lisbon and Maastricht treaties.
> 
> Neoliberal capitalism is plundering Portugal and Spain to an even greater extent than it is in the US which is exactly what reasonable people would expect when tax and public spending policy is taken away from governments and turned over to the banking centers.



Unfortunately, your perception is not entirely correct: those banking systems you refer to are espousing liberal socialist policies that are outside civilized, capitalist investment norms: those loans are only forgiven for political obedience, not because they are good ideas and successful.

It is socialism that is plundering those economies, not capitalism.  Under capitalism, successful ideas flourish, and the investors in bad ideas go to the poor house.  Those systems that are failing are failing because the investors also control the militaries and political systems and aren't allowed to fail as would normally be the case under capitalism.


----------



## Samofvt (Dec 13, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How does the number of medical bankruptcies or student debt levels in "those successful socialist" countries compare to the US?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


On one hand, I would like to say "SO WHAT"?  As long as the borrowers are paying their debt in an agreeable fashion, there is no problem.

On the other hand, since when are student loans in the United States considered part of capitalism?  They are not part of the normal capitalist system because the (socialist) government FORCES their re-payment and they are not subject to normal rules of lending.  I'll explain, in case you don't get it: under the normal rules of fairness and capitalism, if a lender loans someone capital, and that person is unable to see a profit to repay the loan, then they declare bankruptcy and the one lending the capital loses and the borrower gets a nick on their history.  Under the current system, there is no forgiveness or possibility of leaving the student debt behind under bankruptcy protection (well, except under a few carefully chosen circumstances that the government chooses).  This is anything BUT capitalism.  It's closer to totalitarianism or something else, especially considering the same government that makes these ridiculous "loans" also lures the student into them by promising great rewards.  It's a bait-and-switch type situation.

The real estate market is becoming the same way, although most can still get out of it since real property general has real value and can be re-sold to cover the debt in most cases.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 13, 2021)

Samofvt said:


> The US paid a heavy price for the abomination that was slavery and those atrocities committed against Native Americans: it's called the Civil War, and took place over 150 years ago, in case you haven't read any history books lately. Thankfully, the values that won out then DEFINE what this country is today


White supremacy defines what this country is today as you can see from prison demographics to wealth inequality. It was economic self-interest and not moral convictions that ultimately abolished slavery as the institution came to be regarded as an impediment to industrialization. 

"Given the choice between modernity and barbarism, prosperity and poverty, lawfulness and cruelty, democracy and totalitarianism, America chose all of the above."

Imho, we still do, but much of the barbarism, poverty, and cruelty is inflicted on the populations of non-white foreign nations while gullible or indifferent Americans are constantly lied to about their "exceptionalism."

American Capitalism Is Brutal. You Can Trace That to the Plantation. (Published 2019)


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 13, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> White supremacy defines what this country is today as you can see from prison demographics to wealth inequality. It was economic self-interest and not moral convictions that ultimately abolished slavery as the institution came to be regarded as an impediment to industrialization.
> 
> "Given the choice between modernity and barbarism, prosperity and poverty, lawfulness and cruelty, democracy and totalitarianism, America chose all of the above."
> 
> ...


But you claim that capitalism required slavery, moron.  Now you're claim that capitalism required slavery to be abolished.

Never say that a commie doesn't take both sides of every issue.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 13, 2021)

Uriel said:


> When considering that the CRA generally pushed banks to lend more to the poor and minorities in particular, this isn't surprising


*What explains the sub-prime treatment of prosperous minority communities like Prince George's County?*

"Even the most stable of P.G. County homeowners wound up with subprime mortgages, presumably made to believe that subprime was their only option. 

*"Not even a good credit score would have spared blacks from these discriminatory lending practices. *

"The Center for Responsible Lending found that during the housing boom, 6.2 percent of whites with a credit score of 660 and higher received high-interest mortgages but 21.4 percent of blacks with a score of 660 or higher received these same loans." 

Staggering Loss of Black Wealth Due to Subprime Scandal Continues Unabated

"As the wealthiest black-majority county in the United States, Prince George's has long represented the pinnacle of black success. 

"The county's median household income is $73,568-a full $20,000 more than the median household income of the United States as a whole. 

"Only 7.1 percent of U.S. firms are black-owned, but in Prince George's that number stands at a whopping 54.5 percent."


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 13, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> White supremacy defines what this country is today as you can see from prison demographics



I don't care what color you are, commit crime, go to jail.

Tell your friends.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 13, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "The Center for Responsible Lending found that during the housing boom, 6.2 percent of whites with a credit score of 660 and higher received high-interest mortgages but 21.4 percent of blacks with a score of 660 or higher received these same loans."



What was the white default rate?
What was the black default rate?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 13, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> What are the default rates among borrowers with a FICO score of 660 or higher by race?


Why don't you research that question?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 13, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> How many European countries did the USSR invade and occupy?


Why did Russia worry about another European/American invasion AFTER winning WWII?


----------



## dblack (Dec 13, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Why did Russia worry about another European/American invasion AFTER winning WWII?


Because the USSR was a totalitarian regime. They, quite rightly, saw us an enemy.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 13, 2021)

Uriel said:


> The USSR generally took more the kind of approach we did with Latin America. We had certain regimes we toppled with CIA-supported coups, while they had ones they did clandestinely.


In 1945 the very last thing Stalin needed was a Cold War with a continental superpower whose homeland's infrastructure was untouched by the sort of bombing campaigns that leveled much of Europe and Japan.

In that same year the US had nuclear weapons and Russia did not. That led American leaders to deny the ballot to popular (communist) elements in Korea, Greece, and Italy. When the Russians saw what was happening, they responded by creating a buffer zone around their homeland in self-defense and quickly acquiring their own nuclear arsenal..


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 13, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Why don't you research that question?


What the commies were demanding is not people with the same score paying higher rate.  They wanted people with much lower FIFO scores to pay the same rate and put down the same downpayment..


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 13, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Why don't you research that question?



You're the one whining about mortgages. 

Prove the supposed disparity was unjust.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 13, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Why did Russia worry about another European/American invasion AFTER winning WWII?



Because Russia sucks.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 13, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> That led American leaders to deny the ballot to popular (communist) elements in Korea, Greece, and Italy.



Wah.......we resisted the spread of communism. Unfair. DURR.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 13, 2021)

Samofvt said:


> The atrocities being committed there are still happening today in modern times: apparently the ruling socialist governments haven't gained an appreciation for human life. Nor have they made any progress toward achieving allowing their


*How many atrocities have US capitalists committed since 9/11?

How many millions of innocent human beings have been murdered, maimed, and displaced to advance the Dow Jones?

"The Greatest Purveyor of Violence in the World" hasn't changed since 1968.*




"A single top secret American strike cell launched tens of thousands of bombs and missiles against the Islamic State in Syria, but in the process of hammering a vicious enemy, the shadowy force sidestepped safeguards and repeatedly killed civilians, according to multiple current and former military and intelligence officials.

"The unit was called Talon Anvil, and it worked in three shifts around the clock between 2014 and 2019, pinpointing targets for the United States’ formidable air power to hit: convoys, car bombs, command centers and squads of enemy fighters."

Civilian Deaths Mounted as Secret Unit Pounded ISIS


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 13, 2021)

Samofvt said:


> I believe if we can keep socialism and its evils from prevailing, the USA will continue to be a beacon of hope and liberty for the world, as it has been for over a century. Remember, all those immigrants who flood our borders are running from places with a socialist and inhumane system of government.


Most of the immigrants flooding our southern border are running from right-wing death squads commanded by graduates of the School of Americas. Those death squads advance the interests of US corporations and investors along with local elites who enrich themselves with US dollars while their general population struggles to survive. There is no more inhumane system of government than US imperialism.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 13, 2021)

Samofvt said:


> Unfortunately, your perception is not entirely correct: those banking systems you refer to are espousing liberal socialist policies that are outside civilized, capitalist investment norms: those loans are only forgiven for political obedience, not because they are good ideas and successful.


Liberal socialist economic policies usually include a central bank authorized to spend money when necessary to revive an economy. The Maastricht and Lisbon treaties (along with the German constitution) deprive the EU of having such an institution which obliges governments to save bondholders from loss instead of writing down bad debt.

The Brexit Silence | Michael Hudson


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 13, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Liberal socialist economic policies usually include a central bank authorized to spend money when necessary to revive an economy. The Maastricht and Lisbon treaties (along with the German constitution) deprive the EU of having such an institution which obliges governments to save bondholders from loss instead of writing down bad debt.
> 
> The Brexit Silence | Michael Hudson



*Liberal socialist economic policies usually include a central bank authorized to spend money when necessary to revive an economy. *

What do the central banks spend money on?

*The Maastricht and Lisbon treaties (along with the German constitution) deprive the EU of having such an institution*

The EU doesn't have a central bank?

*which obliges governments to save bondholders from loss instead of writing down bad debt.*

Bondholders never have losses? Bad debt is never written down?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 13, 2021)

Samofvt said:


> Those systems that are failing are failing because the investors also control the militaries and political systems and aren't allowed to fail as would normally be the case under capitalism.


*Isn't that exactly what has been happening under US finance capitalism since 2008?*

Noam Chomsky Quote

"One of the best predictors of policy around is Thomas Ferguson's investment theory of politics...I mean, to say it in a sentence, he describes *elections as occasions in which groups of investors coalesce and invest to control the state."*


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 13, 2021)

Samofvt said:


> On one hand, I would like to say "SO WHAT"? As long as the borrowers are paying their debt in an agreeable fashion, there is no problem


*What happens when debts can't be repaid, when debt grows faster than the economy?*



"If the economy overall grows by x% per year, and returns on investments grow by more than x% per year, then it follows with mathematical necessity t*hat a larger and larger fraction of total income goes to owners and correspondingly that a smaller and smaller fraction of total income goes to workers.*

"Put differently, owning things becomes more profitable over time, while doing things for pay becomes less and less profitable over time."

What is the most important takeaway from Thomas Piketty's Capital in the 21st Century?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 13, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *What happens when debts can't be repaid, when debt grows faster than the economy?*
> View attachment 575463
> "If the economy overall grows by x% per year, and returns on investments grow by more than x% per year, then it follows with mathematical necessity t*hat a larger and larger fraction of total income goes to owners and correspondingly that a smaller and smaller fraction of total income goes to workers.*
> 
> ...



*What happens when debts can't be repaid, when debt grows faster than the economy?*

Why would that make debts unpayable?

_"If the economy overall grows by x% per year, and returns on investments grow by more than x% per year, then it follows with mathematical necessity that a larger and larger fraction of total income goes to owners and correspondingly that a smaller and smaller fraction of total income goes to workers._

If only there were a way for workers to buy shares........

_"Put differently, owning things becomes more profitable over time, while doing things for pay becomes less and less profitable over time."_

Piketty is a hack.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 13, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> You're the one whining about mortgages.
> 
> Prove the supposed disparity was unjust.


I've read a number of articles that point out that for a given credit worthiness, loan rates were identical.  The mortgage commies wanted people who did not have good credit to get prime mortgages.  These are the people wo cause the sub-prime mortgage crisis.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 13, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Why did Russia worry about another European/American invasion AFTER winning WWII?


They didn't.  That was just an excuse Stalin used to hold on to Easter Europe.

Apparently you expect us to believe that Stalin was some kind of reasonable person.


----------



## Samofvt (Dec 13, 2021)

georgephillip I believe your original topic for this thread is close to the truth: "Capitalism is NOT democratic: Democracy is NOT capitalist"

As far as playing the blame game about who is in jail vs who is not, sorted by race, I'll have to pass.  I believe those who commit crimes and are convicted by a jury are there because of circumstances, not race, but any argument is subjective.  That topic doesn't have much to do with Capitalism nor Democracy, imho.

The point I am trying to make is that the system we (in the USA) are living under is NOT capitalism, and there is growing doubt that our Democracy counts for much.  Under the capitalism that was forged by the founding men, INVESTORS BEAR RISK.  Any system where the investors have no risk and can cause slavery, indentured service, or otherwise violate a person's God given freedoms of self-determination, IS NOT CAPITALISM.

It should be stressed that the formation and development of the USA WAS THE FIRST EVER of its kind: a capitalist system where any ordinary person has the ability to rise above poverty, guaranteed by certain inalienable, God given, rights to justice under a fair system.  There is no clause that guarantees success, and many may fail, but in any case, the decisions of the individual dictate the outcome.  Did it take a while for people of non-English decent to be treated with those same rights?  Yes, because of the run-away and RICH slave system of the south.  It cost a lot of lives to correct that abomination, the lives of whites, blacks, native Americans, and many others to achieve that.  It's not perfect, we can't reach into someone's heart and force them to see the truth.  But we can enforce the laws that were established in the constitution, as written and as intended.

The Slave states of the south were a perfect example of socialism.  It was revered around the world as how great at class-system could be.  You seem to be advocating that we continue to return to the socialist (class/slave) system.  That system that we, as a nation and God Fearing men and women, rejected during our formation.  This is the only real problem I have with most of what you are pontificating.

The purpose of a people's government, by the people and for the people, is to 1) establish laws 2) ensure the laws are enforced, and 3) judge when those laws are in violation.  They created 3 (THREE) branches of government in hopes of establishing a balance so that the government could not take ownership and become what those men knew as evil.  Under socialism, there would have to be a 4th (FOURTH) branch of the federal government, and that branch would be in charge of OWNERSHIP.  The way our founders established it, OWNERSHIP is left to the people.  That, my friend is the beautiful thing we respect as capitalism.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 14, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> So it's OK if the country they invade and occupy is closer?


Why would you care?
You support the genocide that made America "exceptional," so why would Russian self-defense in 1945 bother you aside from its propaganda value?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 14, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Your FICO score isn't the only thing that determines your credit worthyness.
> 
> Who are the authors of this chart? They appear to be a group of nobody communists.





> "According to court testimony, some of the loan officers at Wells Fargo spoke of these subprime loans as 'ghetto loans,' and referred to their black customers as 'mud people.'


Staggering Loss of Black Wealth Due to Subprime Scandal Continues Unabated

"There was even a cash incentive for loan officers to aggressively market subprime mortgages in minority neighborhoods. 

"In the end, the Justice Department found that 4,500 homeowners in Baltimore andthe Washington, D.C., region that had been affected by these flat-out racist lending practices."


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 14, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Income taxes, period, distort the market,


How does that work?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 14, 2021)

tahuyaman said:


> Good question. When?


I guess the key word is "legally"?
US politicians have shot each other, but I'm not aware of any who did so legally.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 14, 2021)

tahuyaman said:


> Yes


*It's hard for me to understand how an economic system dedicated to maximizing profit for a relative handful of society can be compatible with a political system allegedly based on one person/one vote?*

https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf

"Capitalism and democracy follow different logics: unequally distributed property rights on the one hand, equal civic and political rights on the other; profit-oriented trade within capitalism in contrast to the search for the common good within democracy; debate, *compromise and majority decision-making within democratic politics versus hierarchical decision-making by managers and capital owners."*


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> It's hard for me to understand how an economic system dedicated to maximizing profit for a relative handful of society can be compatible with a political system allegedly based on one person/one vote?



You're free to buy, or not buy, from any capitalist. Vote with your dollars.

You should have stopped after the first 6 words, "It's hard for me to understand"


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How does that work?


ROFL.  How would they not distort the market?  They change the cost of the things you buy, obviously.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Why would you care?
> You support the genocide that made America "exceptional," so why would Russian self-defense in 1945 bother you aside from its propaganda value?


How was invading Poland, Finland, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania and Besarbia "self defense?"


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 14, 2021)

Samofvt said:


> The point I am trying to make is that the system we (in the USA) are living under is NOT capitalism, and there is growing doubt that our Democracy counts for much. Under the capitalism that was forged by the founding men, INVESTORS BEAR RISK. Any system where the investors have no risk and can cause slavery, indentured service, or otherwise violate a person's God given freedoms of self-determination, IS NOT CAPITALISM.


*There seems to be a distinction between "capitalism" and "free markets" that I'm unclear about. I'm more clear about the last forty years during which we've seen a shift from manufacturing to finance that has coincided with a drastic increase in income/wealth inequality*
:
StackPath





SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals

"Marx and many of his less radical contemporary reformers saw the historical role of industrial capitalism as being to clear away the legacy of feudalism—*the landlords, bankers, and monopolists extracting economic rent without producing real value. *

"However, that reform movement failed. 

"Today, the finance, insurance, and real estate (FIRE) sector has regained control of government, creating neo-rentier economies. 

"The aim of this postindustrial finance capitalism is the opposite of industrial capitalism as known to nineteenth-century economists:* it seeks wealth primarily through the extraction of economic rent, not industrial capital formation. *

"Tax favoritism for real estate, privatization of oil and mineral extraction, and banking and infrastructure monopolies add to the cost of living and doing business. 

"*Labor is increasingly exploited by bank debt, student debt, and credit card debt while housing and other prices are inflated on credit, leaving less income to spend on goods and services as economies suffer debt deflation. T*oday’s new Cold War is a fight to internationalize this rentier capitalism by globally privatizing and financializing transportation..."


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 14, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> So the world Bank harms other countries by giving them money?


The World Bank and IMF loan money to countries with a few conditions like the countries receiving the funds are required to repay the loans by exporting plantation crops and buy their grains from US exporters, creating a food dependency on US farmers. 




They are also required to vote with the US at the UN, buy US-made weapons, and generally behave like well-trained lap dogs. 

They are NOT free.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The World Bank and IMF loan money to countries with a few conditions like the countries receiving the funds are required to repay the loans by exporting plantation crops and buy their grains from US exporters, creating a food dependency on US farmers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Easy solution:  don't take the money.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 14, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> would be happy to abolish the World Bank tomorrow. It's no friend of capitalism


The World Bank and its related organizations are the best friends of neoliberal capitalism imaginable which is exactly why the came into existence at the time when rich capitalists were planning to repeal the New Deal programs that created the greatest middle class in world history.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The World Bank and its related organizations are the best friends of neoliberal capitalism imaginable which is exactly why the came into existence at the time when rich capitalists were planning to repeal the New Deal programs that created the greatest middle class in world history.


The World Bank is a socialist enterprise.  I would abolish it tomorrow if I could.

The New Deal impoverished this country for over a decade.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The World Bank and IMF loan money to countries with a few conditions like the countries receiving the funds are required to repay the loans by exporting plantation crops and buy their grains from US exporters, creating a food dependency on US farmers.



Post a couple of the loan agreements that support your claim.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 14, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Post a couple of the loan agreements that support your claim.


He's right about what the World Bank does.   That's fine with me.  If they want American taxpayer money, then they better well vote with the USA in the UN.

However, there's nothing about exporting cash crops.  There are something about maintaining a positive balance of payments, I think.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 14, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Germany is not Europs. Taking a side in the Russian civil war is not "invading" it. After the commies took over, the USSR invalided Poland (twice), Finland, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Bessarabia, Northern Bukovina, Iran, Hungary. Romania, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, Northern Norway, Bornholm, Denmark, Germany, Austria, Manchuria, Korea, the Kuril Islands, Afghanistan, parts of Georgia and Ukraine


Germany is part of Europe.
So is France.




When Harry Truman refused to allow free elections in 1945 in Korea, Italy, and Greece because communist patriots would have won (since capitalists in those countries were more likely to have collaborated with Nazis and Imperial Japan), Stalin had no choice than to create a buffer zone to protect Russian from yet one more invasion from the west.




Union of Soviet Socialist Republics


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 14, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> He's right about what the World Bank does.   That's fine with me.  If they want American taxpayer money, then they better well vote with the USA in the UN.
> 
> However, there's nothing about exporting cash crops.  There are something about maintaining a positive balance of payments, I think.



Usually the IMF says they have to cut government spending and raise taxes.
Makes sense, gotta pay back their loans somehow.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Germany is part of Europe.
> So is France.
> 
> 
> ...



*When Harry Truman refused to allow free elections in 1945 in Korea, Italy, and Greece because communist patriots would have won*

Oh no!!

We resisted your commie a-hole buddies.
How did that work out for South Korea, Italy and Greece?
Why don't you compare their GDP to Russia's, Cuba's, Venezuela's and North Korea's?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The World Bank and IMF loan money to countries with a few conditions like the countries receiving the funds are required to repay the loans by exporting plantation crops and buy their grains from US exporters, creating a food dependency on US farmers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Or run away like a little twat.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Germany is part of Europe.


That appears to be a typo.


georgephillip said:


> When Harry Truman refused to allow free elections in 1945 in Korea, Italy, and Greece because communist patriots would have won (since capitalists in those countries were more likely to have collaborated with Nazis and Imperial Japan), Stalin had no choice than to create a buffer zone to protect Russian from yet one more invasion from the west.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Stalin had no choice?  What complete horseshit.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 14, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Yeah, it only invades its neighbors like Vietnam, South Korea and Nepal,


I suppose you've noticed the first two names on your list were also invaded and occupied by the Greatest Purveyor of Violence in the World?




American imperialism - Wikipedia


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 14, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> That's awful!!!
> 
> Why do idiots in the third world keep borrowing?


Because greedy parasites like you populate third world governments and personally profit from the loans and other forms of USAID. Maybe you missed your calling?




https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/04/corruption-is-trumps-greatest-political-liability.html


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 14, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Eastern Europe deserved to be enslaved by the USSR because Germany? LOL!


Your side lost WWII, Turd.
Move on or move to Russia.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 14, 2021)

San Souci said:


> Clue--the USA was NEVER a Democracy. It is a Representative Republic.


Democratic Republic in spire of the Republicans' best efforts:




GOP lawmakers in 28 states, including Pa., have introduced more than 100 bills seeking to restrict ballot access | Analysis - Pennsylvania Capital-Star


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 14, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Poor socialists, can't come up with a currency that other countries want to use.







U.S. Military Spending vs. the World


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Because greedy parasites like you populate third world governments and personally profit from the loans and other forms of USAID.



OMG!!

That's terrible. Just awful.

Are there any third world countries that are safe to lend to?
Ones that aren't hopelessly corrupt?
Can you post a list?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Your side lost WWII, Turd.
> Move on or move to Russia.



My side won WWII. And then we kicked your ass in the Cold War.

You still crying yourself to sleep over that?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> U.S. Military Spending vs. the World



Is that supposed to show an alternate currency that people want to hold?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 14, 2021)

Mac-7 said:


> When china is the global power it is working toward you will see what a true murderer looks like


*China will also be less hypocritical than the US when it comes to protecting  human rights; there has never been a global empire as bloody as the US's.*

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...merican-wars/2011/12/05/gIQALCO4eP_story.html

"The major wars the United States has fought since the surrender of Japan in 1945 — *in Korea, Indochina, Iraq and Afghanistan — have produced colossal carnage*. For most of them, we do not have an accurate sense of how many people died, but a conservative estimate is at least 6 million civilians and soldiers."


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 14, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> So? Why don't these "superior" socialist economies control the global reserve currency? Why do they even care what the reserve currency is? That's a feature of capitalism, isn't it?


How would a "superior" currency function in a world protected by the most powerful military in history?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 14, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Did they? Can you prove that? the only free elections proposed were in South Korea, not North Korea. Right there, it's hardly Democratic.


*In August of 1945 the People's Republic of Korea (PRK) presented a revolutionary program designed to liberate to all Koreans from one end of the peninsula to the other:*

People's Republic of Korea - Wikipedia

"The program of the PRK was presented in its 14 September twenty-seven point program. 

"The program included: 'the confiscation without compensation of lands held by the Japanese and collaborators; free distribution of that land to the peasants; rent limits on the nonredistributed land; nationalization of such major industries as mining, transportation, banking, and communication; state supervision of small and mid-sized companies; …guaranteed basic human rights and freedoms, including those of speech, press, assembly, and faith; universal suffrage to adults over the age of eighteen; equality for women; labor law reforms including an eight-hour day, a minimum wage, and prohibition of child labor; and '*establishment of close relations with the United States, USSR, United Kingdom, and China*, and positive opposition to any foreign influences interfering with the domestic affairs of the state.'[1]: p.65–6 [5]"

*Koreans were prevented from voting on this program because the US military government outlawed the PRK on 12 December 1945.*


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 14, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> You can vote socialist.


And how often are socialists elected to public office in the US?


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> I suppose you've noticed the first two names on your list were also invaded and occupied by the Greatest Purveyor of Violence in the World?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No they weren't, dumbass.  North Korea invaded South Korea, and US Troops never set foot on North Vietnamese soil.  North Vietnam, on the other hand, did invade South Vietnam.

So the truth is 100% the opposite of what you claim.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *In August of 1945 the People's Republic of Korea (PRK) presented a revolutionary program designed to liberate to all Koreans from one end of the peninsula to the other:*
> 
> People's Republic of Korea - Wikipedia
> 
> ...


The PRK were a hostile invasion force.  Barring them from the country was entirely appropriate.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> And how often are socialists elected to public office in the US?


In other words, you object to the fact that the voters want nothing to do with your subversive schemes.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 14, 2021)

Mac-7 said:


> The communists refused to hold elections that could be monitored by the UN


Three years AFTER the USAMGK banned a peninsula-wide election in 1945.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Because greedy parasites like you populate third world governments and personally profit from the loans and other forms of USAID. Maybe you missed your calling?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Apparently you have a problem democracy.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Three years AFTER the USAMGK banned a peninsula-wide election in 1945.


By "banned" you mean they chose not to have it.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How would a "superior" currency function in a world protected by the most powerful military in history?


Define "superior currency," and what does our military have to do with anything?


----------



## Mac-7 (Dec 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *China will also be less hypocritical than the US when it comes to protecting  human rights; there has never been a global empire as bloody as the US's.*
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...merican-wars/2011/12/05/gIQALCO4eP_story.html
> 
> "The major wars the United States has fought since the surrender of Japan in 1945 — *in Korea, Indochina, Iraq and Afghanistan — have produced colossal carnage*. For most of them, we do not have an accurate sense of how many people died, but a conservative estimate is at least 6 million civilians and soldiers."


The Washington Post Editorial Board are a bunch of anti American turncoats

I guess they never recovered from eating magic mushrooms and running naked at Woodstock


----------



## Samofvt (Dec 14, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> The World Bank is a socialist enterprise.  I would abolish it tomorrow if I could.
> 
> The New Deal impoverished this country for over a decade.


The New Deal was 100x more conservative than anything they are implementing today.  For example, it created the Civilian Conservation Corps: people could get fed if they were hungry by performing work.  Today, they don't dare ask anyone to perform labor in exchange for sustenance, they just hand it out.

Still, I agree, and the New Deal was the begging of the end for many freedoms and true capitalism.  Programs that followed went further and further into socialism.

I think the OP here is calling the World Bank "capitalist" just because it deals with money (capital): not all monetary systems are capitalism, and capitalism is not the basis of all monetary systems.


----------



## Mac-7 (Dec 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Three years AFTER the USAMGK banned a peninsula-wide election in 1945.


The UN held elections in 1948 that the communists refused to participate in

Any proposed election in 1945 would have been impossible amd was never seriously considered by the UN


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> And how often are socialists elected to public office in the US?



Too often.


----------



## San Souci (Dec 14, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Democratic Republic in spire of the Republicans' best efforts:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


All people have access. Just walk or drive to the polling place. Or REQUEST an absentee Ballot with proper ID. Mail out ballots should be illegal. Ballot harvesting IS illegal.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 15, 2021)

Mac-7 said:


> The UN held elections in 1948 that the communists refused to participate in
> 
> Any proposed election in 1945 would have been impossible amd was never seriously considered by the UN


*The UN wasn't created until October of 1945 two months after Koreans were prepared to determine their government. 

Do you believe Koreans were incapable of practicing popular sovereignty without benevolent white men sharing their burden?

The communist NK refused to participate in sham elections in 1948 because the military dictator imposed on SK by the US was busy killing communists and others opposed to his puppet government*.




"Bodies of suspected communists following the Bodo League massacre, 1950."

5 Brutal Dictators The U.S. Helped Slaughter Hundreds Of Thousands

"Then, in 1961, South Koreans — who were at this point poorer than North Koreans — saw the rise of Park Chung-Hee, a military general who seized leadership via a coup tacitly supported by the U.S. Upon entering office, Park declared the rule of martial law and amended the constitution to support his own authoritarianism."


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 15, 2021)

Mac-7 said:


> You mean millions of communist fighters with civilians caught in the crossfire
> 
> Not to mention the batshit crazy muslim terrorists


*Communist dictators who become billionaires by becoming IMF puppets, and Muslims who profit from US invasions/occupations of their homeland are bigger threats to humanity:*




"...Ceausescu, but during his 23 years in power, the regime liquidated all potential political opposition at home and funneled Romania’s resources out through an elaborate network of public-private partnerships that made the Communist dictator one of the world’s richest men.

"And through it all, as Romania’s foreign debt more than tripled, the US Treasury-backed IMF was always there with an open line of credit to ensure Ceausescu never had to reform."

5 Brutal Dictators The U.S. Helped Slaughter Hundreds Of Thousands


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "Then, in 1961, South Koreans — who were at this point poorer than North Koreans



Impossible.

Now they're 37th in the world for real GDP per capita.
North Korea is 216th.

Why has communism sucked so much in the last 60 years?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Communist dictators who become billionaires by becoming IMF puppets, and Muslims who profit from US invasions/occupations of their homeland are bigger threats to humanity:*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So you like Ceausescu or you don't?


----------



## Mac-7 (Dec 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Do you believe Koreans were incapable of practicing popular sovereignty without benevolent white men sharing their burden?


The soviets dominated north korea is in the days and serveral years after liberation from japan

Do you think the north koreans are lucky to be communists instead of being liberated by America?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 15, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> That's a myth I often see progs spouting.. What's the evidence for it?
> 
> Liberals are the ones who invented liar loans, moron.


*Wall Street bribed corrupt politicians to create stated income loans, Loon.*

https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/12-3-7BlackTestimony.pdf (p.3)

"Overview of my testimony I make seven major points.

"1. We have decent data on the incidence of fraud in stated income loans. The incidence is 90 percent. *We know from investigations that it was overwhelmingly the lenders and their agents that prompted these frauds. *

"No governmental entity ever required any entity to make, or purchase, a stated income loan. 

*"Even at their most anti-regulatory extreme, U.S. regulators warned against stated income loans.* 

"We know roughly how many fraudulent stated income loans were made. 

"Over two million fraudulent mortgage loans were made in 2006 alone. 

*"It was overwhelmingly fraudulent loans to borrowers who lacked any ability to repay their loans out of their income that caused the housing bubble to hyper-inflate"




Ultimate Guide to Note Investing Due Diligence - NoteVestment*


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 15, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> So you like Ceausescu or you don't?


About as much as I liked Nixon.
You?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> About as much as I liked Nixon.
> You?



He strayed too far from your favorite type of communism?

Putin should get the Ceausescu treatment. And Maduro.


----------



## kaz (Dec 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> You can't provide a link supporting your claim, and I'm responsible?



You provided a useless link and yes, you are responsible for your own actions, twit


----------



## kaz (Dec 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Which is completely immaterial since poor Americans are living under a domestic economy that has been siphoning wealth upwards since Reagan, Rube:*
> 
> Income and Poverty in the United States: 2020
> 
> "Median household income was $67,521 in 2020, a decrease of 2.9 percent from the 2019 median of $69,560 (Figure 1 and Table A-1). This is the first statistically significant decline in median household income since 2011."



Um ... a decreased household income once makes Americans poor.  Wow, that's stupid ... even for you ...


----------



## kaz (Dec 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *So refute it*
> 
> "Conservatism in every place and time is founded on deception.
> 
> ...



More Marxism gone wild claims!     Choice is deception!    So you SERIOUSLY believe that government controlling the means of production would ... ahem .... not be "deceitful."   Wow, you're a fool


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 15, 2021)

Mac-7 said:


> Thats not correct
> 
> As everyone found out when unqualified minorities defaulted on their morgages


*What's the definition of a liar's loan?

Which party is responsible for verifying the borrower has adequate income to repay her home loan?*

Bill Black: Lenders’ Lies about Liar’s Loans and “Rigorous Underwriting” | naked capitalism

*The definition of a liar’s loan is that it is designed for the purpose of avoiding not simply 'rigorous' underwriting, but rather the most minimal underwriting any property lender must do to have any chance of surviving.* 
"Yes, 'rigorous underwriting' is the absolute essential to managing risk in property lending.  

"Yes, in the case of conventional home lending, rigorous underwriting can reduce credit risk to tiny proportions.  

"One of the 'Four C’s' of minimally competent underwriting for such loans is 'Capacity.'  

*"That means that the lender, must at a minimum, verify that the borrower has adequate income to repay the home loan.*


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 15, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> He sounds like a stupid whiney







Just like you, Rube.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 15, 2021)

struth said:


> your link says the Russian invaded in august of 1945, the US came in after that to prevent the so called “free-elections”
> 
> can they really be “free elections” if the socialist in Moscow are running it??


*The Soviets liberated Korea from the Japanese occupation from north to south.
They could have liberated the entire peninsula, but they stopped at the 38th parallel in accordance with an American request.

The Korean election slated for 1945 was organized by people's committees throughout the entire peninsula designed to coordinate the transition to national independence without any entangling foreign alliances*.

People's Republic of Korea - Wikipedia

"Under (Woon-hyung) Lyuh's leadership, the newly formed Committee for the Preparation of Korean Independence (CPKI) organized people's committees throughout the country to coordinate the transition to independence. 

"On 28 August 1945 the CPKI announced that it would function as the temporary national government of Korea.[1]: p.64  

"On 6 September, CPKI activists met in Seoul and established the PRK.[1]: p.65 "

*Lyuh Woon-hyung** believed Korean independence was essential for world peace.

He is rare among politicians in modern Korean history because he is revered in both South and North Korea.*


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 15, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> After the war, moron


Before Reagan?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 15, 2021)

jc456 said:


> ero, he took zero. I know you don’t do math, anything times zero equals…….. zero


*Here's your zero (and 0.1)*





Trump reported making more than $1.6 billion while president - CREW | Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington

"Donald Trump reported making more than $1.6 billion in outside revenue and income during his four years as President of the United States, according to a review of his financial disclosures by CREW. 

"While Trump publicly took credit for donating his taxpayer-funded salary, that ended up being less than *0.1*% of the revenue and income he disclosed during his presidency. *Far from being a sacrifice, the donation was merely a fig leaf to cover up four years of brazen corruption"*


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 15, 2021)

jc456 said:


> He was a demofk though right?


Reagan was a Democrat until after WWII ended.
His rightward shift occurred during his time with GE.


----------



## Mac-7 (Dec 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Which party is responsible for verifying the borrower has adequate income to repay her home loan?


I think lenders were pressured by do-gooder libs in government and the civil rights racket to make more loans in low income, aka black, neighborhoods

The borrowers lied (sometimes coached by unscrupulous lenders) about their income

Then the big banks bundled the bad loans into investment scams and sold them to anyone gullible enough to buy them

Lots of blame to go around, but the original sin was government


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 15, 2021)

jc456 said:


> Can’t answer my question huh?


Why are there countries?
Was that your question?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 15, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> By working.
> 
> You should have done more of that, eh comrade?
> 
> Maybe you'd be less poor and miserable?


Poor = miserable, is that your moral math, Kulak?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 15, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> If you lie about your income, you are lying


"The definition of liar’s loan is that the lender does not verify the borrower’s income (and more extreme liar’s loans do not verify the borrower’s job or assets).  

"The CEO causes the lender to make liar’s loans for the purpose of inflating the borrower’s reported income, which makes it possible for the lender to make more and larger loans, which enriches the CEO."

Bill Black: Lenders’ Lies about Liar’s Loans and “Rigorous Underwriting” | naked capitalism


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 15, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> He was right, commies suck big time.


He was a racist who took pride in being unable to distinguish between Japanese and Korean; someone you support big time.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Poor = miserable, is that your moral math, Kulak?



You = poor and miserable, comrade.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "The definition of liar’s loan is that the lender does not verify the borrower’s income (and more extreme liar’s loans do not verify the borrower’s job or assets).
> 
> "The CEO causes the lender to make liar’s loans for the purpose of inflating the borrower’s reported income, which makes it possible for the lender to make more and larger loans, which enriches the CEO."
> 
> Bill Black: Lenders’ Lies about Liar’s Loans and “Rigorous Underwriting” | naked capitalism



*"The definition of liar’s loan is that the lender does not verify the borrower’s income (and more extreme liar’s loans do not verify the borrower’s job or assets).*

Yup, they didn't verify income or assets.
Who is the liar in any of these loans?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 15, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> No they weren't. There's no such thing as a "free election" that the communists are running.


Communists would likely have won in Korea in 1945 because they led the fight against capitalist Japan; which side would you have died for?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> He was a racist who took pride in being unable to distinguish between Japanese and Korean; someone you support big time.



And yet, despite his inability, commies still suck. Big time.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Communists would likely have won in Korea in 1945



And all the Korean people would have lost, instead of just the North Koreans.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 15, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Like all the free elections in Cuba.......


When are you leaving?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> When are you leaving?



It's your commie shithole....all the free healthcare you can stand.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *What's the definition of a liar's loan?
> 
> Which party is responsible for verifying the borrower has adequate income to repay her home loan?*
> 
> ...


I keep telling you, moron, that the only people that got screwed by the "liar loans" were the banks go granted them.  They did it so the regulators would approve their mergers.  

The feds are totally responsible for the sub prime mortgage fiasco.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> When are you leaving?


Why would he go?  You're the one who is always praising Cuba.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Communists would likely have won in Korea in 1945 because they led the fight against capitalist Japan; which side would you have died for?


More like because they murdered anyone who expressed support for the capitalist candidate.  That's how communists conduct election campaigns.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Before Reagan?


Yes, before Reagan.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Poor = miserable, is that your moral math, Kulak?


Feel free to give me all your money, and then see how happy you are.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Communists would likely have won in Korea in 1945 because they led the fight against capitalist Japan; which side would you have died for?


Then everyone learned what communists were all about.


----------



## jc456 (Dec 15, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Here's your zero (and 0.1)*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


His salary he took zero. Are you saying he was supposed to sell all of his properties? Hahaha dude you’re really a full Un hearted asshole


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 16, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Yeah, South Korean democracy today is much worse than North Korean communism.


How many innocent human beings died to accomplish that?
How many million$ were "earned" from that particular example of American Exceptionalism"?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 16, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How many innocent human beings died to accomplish that?
> How many million$ were "earned" from that particular example of American Exceptionalism"?



How many innocent North Koreans are still dying because of communism?
At least, while they're starving, they can take comfort in the fact that there are no stock buybacks.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 16, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> North Korea wants free elections?


About as much as rich, white Republicans.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 16, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> The Nazis lost after teaming up with Stalin to invade Poland?


Disappointed you didn't invest in Polish sausage futures?


----------



## dblack (Dec 16, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How many innocent human beings died to accomplish that?
> How many million$ were "earned" from that particular example of American Exceptionalism"?


How many vague, empty questions have you asked in this fucking thread?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 16, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Beating your ass


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 16, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> That makes them wealthier than the citizens of 17 other countries.


Since "they" (US citizens) are not living in those "17 other countries", they are still living in poverty in the US.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 16, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Disappointed you didn't invest in Polish sausage futures?



Disappointed that Stalin didn't also take a bullet in his bunker.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 16, 2021)

georgephillip said:


>



That reminds me, who is your second favorite Marxist economist?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 16, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> What's the social cost of Chernobyl?


New report examines financial costs of the Chernobyl nuclear power plant disaster - USC Institute on Inequalities in Global Health

"The Chernobyl accident 30 years ago on April 26, 1986, is the worst disaster in the history of nuclear power generation. 

"Although fewer than 50 deaths have been directly attributed to radiation from the disaster, up to 4,000 people could eventually die of radiation exposure, according to the World Health Organization.

"A new report by USC Institute for Global Health Director Jonathan Samet focuses on the disaster’s financial costs."


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 16, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Socialist invasions of Africa are okay with you?


Depending on how many capitalists/imperialists die.


----------



## jc456 (Dec 16, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Are there political prisoners in the US, twat?


currently there are in DC.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 16, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Depending on how many capitalists/imperialists die.



Commies killing Africans, so imperialist deaths are pretty much zero.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 16, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> New report examines financial costs of the Chernobyl nuclear power plant disaster - USC Institute on Inequalities in Global Health
> 
> "The Chernobyl accident 30 years ago on April 26, 1986, is the worst disaster in the history of nuclear power generation.
> 
> ...


So what's your point, that socialism is incompetant?


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 16, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Depending on how many capitalists/imperialists die.


So you would be4 OK with killing millions of American "capitalists/imperialists?"


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 16, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> That reminds me, who is your second favorite Marxist economist?


The term, "marxist economist" is an oxymoron.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 16, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Since "they" (US citizens) are not living in those "17 other countries", they are still living in poverty in the US.


They are not living in poverty according to any objective definition of the term "poverty."


----------



## jc456 (Dec 16, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> So what's your point, that socialism is incompetant?


still waiting for them to state one place it has been competent.


----------



## jc456 (Dec 16, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Since "they" (US citizens) are not living in those "17 other countries", they are still living in poverty in the US.


they are?  where?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 16, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> The term, "marxist economist" is an oxymoron.



No kidding, but he loves Richard Wolff.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 16, 2021)

dblack said:


> Does the "right price", under socialism, have anything to do with how much people value the good or service in question? Or is that just a secondary concern?


How do people calculate "value" in monopoly capitalism?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 16, 2021)

dblack said:


> Wondering what a socialist "Price is Right" would be like. 🤔


Socialists wouldn't waste their time watch propaganda like "Price is Right" even without commercials filled with useless eaters willing to say anything they are paid to say..


----------



## jc456 (Dec 16, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How do people calculate "value" in monopoly capitalism?


where is that?


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 16, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How do people calculate "value" in monopoly capitalism?


How do they calculate it under socialism?


----------



## jc456 (Dec 16, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Socialists wouldn't waste their time watch propaganda like "Price is Right" even without commercials filled with useless eaters willing to say anything they are paid to say..


still waiting on that successful socialist country.  where is it?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 16, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Are you actually proposing equality of incomes?


No.




Why did you ask?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 16, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Nature rewards those who won the birth lottery. If my parents are smart, there's nothing government can do to erase that advantage, and it commits a grave injustice by trying to erase it.


Those who won the birth lottery did nothing to earn their privileged education.
In many cases their parents became successful because of racial and gender discrimination. White males became rich for centuries in this country largely because they didn't have to compete against any other race and half of their own. That legacy of discrimination makes equality of opportunity something that government must redress.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 16, 2021)

jc456 said:


> still waiting on that successful socialist country.  where is it?


You know he's going to say Sweden.   


georgephillip said:


> No.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sure you are, turd.  You do it every time you whine about rich people.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 16, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Capitalism simply accepts an historical fact. It doesn't "give" anyone anything.


Capitalism gives the owners of the means of production the right to decide what to produce, where to produce it, and how to distribute any profits. Finance capitalism gives banks a free lunch to fail since they know bailouts are coming. The five hundred year history of capitalism is filled with millions of murdered human beings sacrificed on the altar of profit.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 16, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Those who won the birth lottery did nothing to earn their privileged education.


So?  Do you really believe government can/should fix the birth lottery?  What does the government do about a woman is incredibly beautiful, throw acid in her face?

Do you morons ever think about the stupid shit you say?


georgephillip said:


> In many cases their parents became successful because of racial and gender discrimination. White males became rich for centuries in this country largely because they didn't have to compete against any other race and half of their own. That legacy of discrimination makes equality of opportunity something that government must redress.



So do you support having the government throw acid in the faces of beautiful women?  How about people with genius I.Q.s?  Should the government give them brain damage?


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 16, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Capitalism gives the owners of the means of production the right to decide what to produce, where to produce it, and how to distribute any profits.


True, and I couldn't be happier about it.  The people who produced the wealth have demonstrated competence at managing producing enterprise.  Who should we give it to, some corrupt useless bureaucrats?  Dumbass voters



georgephillip said:


> Finance capitalism gives banks a free lunch to fail since they know bailouts are coming. The five hundred year history of capitalism is filled with millions of murdered human beings sacrificed on the altar of profit.



What you call "Finance capitalism," which is really crony capitalism.  It's not capitalism at all.

Capitalism has only been around for 250-300 years, at most.  

Capitalism has killed almost no one.  When you consider all the people capitalism has saved, the ledger decidedly favors capitalism . Famine used to be regular occurrence in the world.  Millions of people died.  Capitalism put an end to it.  Capitalism also put an end to many infections diseases that killed millions.

Is everything you post bullshit?


----------



## jc456 (Dec 16, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Capitalism gives the owners of the means of production the right to decide what to produce, where to produce it, and how to distribute any profits. Finance capitalism gives banks a free lunch to fail since they know bailouts are coming. The five hundred year history of capitalism is filled with millions of murdered human beings sacrificed on the altar of profit.


And what?


----------



## jc456 (Dec 16, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> True, and I couldn't be happier about it.  The people who produced the wealth have demonstrated competence at managing producing enterprise.  Who should we give it to, some corrupt useless bureaucrats?  Dumbass voters


again, that quack thinks socialism worked somewhere.  You and I can't solve insanity such as his.


----------



## Colin norris (Dec 16, 2021)

Rambunctious said:


> Today the USA is neither capitalist or Democratic.....


In case it slipped your memory, Biden won an election last year and that's called democracy. 
Democracy is wonderful if it works in your favour.  If not, we end up bitter and twisted like you because Lord trump was chucked out by it.


----------



## jc456 (Dec 16, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> In case it slipped your memory, Biden won an election last year and that's called democracy.
> Democracy is wonderful if it works in your favour.  If not, we end up bitter and twisted like you because Lord trump was chucked out by it.


No.  And, no it isn't when people like your party cheat.  that's communist.  Just admit it and be happy you admit to your addiction.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 16, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Capitalism gives the owners of the means of production the right to decide what to produce, where to produce it, and how to distribute any profits. Finance capitalism gives banks a free lunch to fail since they know bailouts are coming. The five hundred year history of capitalism is filled with millions of murdered human beings sacrificed on the altar of profit.



*Capitalism gives the owners of the means of production the right to decide what to produce, where to produce it, and how to distribute any profits.*

You have the right to use your stuff too. So what?

* Finance capitalism gives banks a free lunch to fail since they know bailouts are coming. *

Banks paid back TARP. The US Treasury made huge profits.  And?

*The five hundred year history of capitalism is filled with millions of murdered human beings sacrificed on the altar of profit.*

Right, anyone who dies of hunger or from dirty water was killed by capitalism. DURR.


----------



## Colin norris (Dec 16, 2021)

jc456 said:


> no it isn't when people like your party cheat.  that's communist.  Just admit it and be happy you admit to your addiction.



You have no evidence of voter fraud and never will. Its the same old bitter nasty vitriol because you lost.  You are paranoid and hate filled about democrats and will go to your grave believing a trump dictatorship is the only way.  You are an ignorant fool and completely delusional. You know nothing about the electoral system and too stupid to learn 
You don't even know the definition of  communism. Just hate.


----------



## jc456 (Dec 16, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> You have the right to use your stuff too. So what?


he wants to  be in chains and tied up in a three foot cell all day.


----------



## jc456 (Dec 16, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> You have no evidence of voter fraud and never will. Its the same old bitter nasty vitriol because you lost.  You are paranoid and hate filled about democrats and will go to your grave believing a trump dictatorship is the only way.  You are an ignorant fool and completely delusional. You know nothing about the electoral system and too stupid to learn
> You don't even know the definition of  communism. Just hate.


sure they do.  judges don't want to see it because they were bought off.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 16, 2021)

jc456 said:


> he wants to  be in chains and tied up in a three foot cell all day.



His proof that capitalism doesn't work is the fact that he's been a failure his entire life.


----------



## Rambunctious (Dec 16, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> In case it slipped your memory, Biden won an election last year and that's called democracy.
> Democracy is wonderful if it works in your favour.  If not, we end up bitter and twisted like you because Lord trump was chucked out by it.


Joe didn't win...the election was stolen....and that's not democracy...


----------



## jc456 (Dec 16, 2021)

Rambunctious said:


> Joe didn't win...the election was stolen....and that's not democracy...


that's communist.


----------



## dblack (Dec 16, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How do people calculate "value" in monopoly capitalism?


I don't what the fuck "monopoly capitalism" is supposed to mean. But, in a free market, value isn't "calculated". Value is subjective. Depends entirely on who's evaluating.


----------



## dblack (Dec 16, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Socialists wouldn't waste their time watch propaganda like "Price is Right" even without commercials filled with useless eaters willing to say anything they are paid to say..


mkay.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 16, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Fewer out of wedlock births, fewer dropouts, fewer felonies.
> 
> Is it any wonder they have more wealth?


Less redlining.
Fewer pleas bargains.
No stop and frisk or DWB.
Is it any wonder white supremacy works for those too timid to compete on level, heavily regulated playing fields?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 16, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Less redlining.
> Fewer pleas bargains.
> No stop and frisk or DWB.
> Is it any wonder white supremacy works for those too timid to compete on level, heavily regulated playing fields?



*Less redlining.*

Black borrowers default at higher rates. 
They need to bring back actual redlining.

*Fewer pleas bargains.*

Meh.

*No stop and frisk or DWB.*

I agree, we don't want to catch criminals by frisking them......durr.
Stop driving like such jackasses, you'll get pulled over less.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 16, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> So how did the average white person "exploit" black people?


The Historical Reasons Behind the U.S. Racial Wealth Gap

"The chasm begins with slavery, which was a huge generator of wealth for White Americans. 

*"Slavery drove the cotton economy, which enriched not just the growers but everyone from banks to shopkeepers to insurers.* 

"In 2000, economist Robert S. Browne calculated that the income produced by enslaved people for their White owners prior to 1860 was between $1.4 trillion and $4.7 trillion in modern money. 

"In 1865, at the conclusion of the Civil War that ended slavery, freed slaves were promised 40 acres (16 hectares) of land to build an economic future for themselves. 

"But the government reneged on the deal, and Black Americans started their freed lives empty-handed"


----------



## jc456 (Dec 16, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The Historical Reasons Behind the U.S. Racial Wealth Gap
> 
> "The chasm begins with slavery, which was a huge generator of wealth for White Americans.
> 
> ...


oh for fk sake.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 16, 2021)

dblack said:


> I don't what the fuck "monopoly capitalism" is supposed to mean. But, in a free market, value isn't "calculated". Value is subjective. Depends entirely on who's evaluating.



that's always true, whether the market is free or not.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 16, 2021)

dblack said:


> "Exploit" is one of those vague euphemisms that socialists like to use. They pretend it's something bad, without ever really identifying what is bad about it. It's just a wedge to sell more state control. Of everything.


Selfishly taking advantage of someone in order to PROFIT from them or otherwise benefit from them is perceived as a negative by all who don't worship racist tyrants.​​The Historical Reasons Behind the U.S. Racial Wealth Gap

"Racial Violence​"What little wealth Black families were able to build after the Civil War was often violently destroyed. In a massacre in 1921, mobs and police officers in Tulsa, Oklahoma burned down what was then known as Black Wall Street, obliterating $200 million in homes and businesses and displacing 10,000 Black residents. 

"This was just the most egregious of many such incidents. For example, there were an estimated 16 similar massacres in 1910, and more than 30 in 1920."


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 16, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Less redlining.
> Fewer pleas bargains.
> No stop and frisk or DWB.
> Is it any wonder white supremacy works for those too timid to compete on level, heavily regulated playing fields?


Redlining is  a commie myth.

What do plea bargains have to do with capitalism?

What do "No stop and frisk or DWB" have to do with capitalism?

You're a fucking lunatic.


----------



## dblack (Dec 16, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Selfishly taking advantage of someone in order to PROFIT from them or otherwise benefit from them is perceived as a negative by all who don't worship racist tyrants.



Lying cocksucker. 

See if you can find a single quote where I "worship racist tyrants". Notice, while you're at it, how I uniformly criticize those who do. And when you're done, come back here and beg for forgiveness. Dumbass.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 16, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The Historical Reasons Behind the U.S. Racial Wealth Gap
> 
> "The chasm begins with slavery, which was a huge generator of wealth for White Americans.
> 
> ...


Robert S. Browne is a commie propagandist.  He's quadruple counting the money.   When northern textile mills made money weaving cloth, you don't get to count it as profit from slavery.  That's a bullshit leftwing propaganda tactic.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 16, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Do you see any other alternatives?


No monopoly on the use of force is one alternative.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 16, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> I agree.


Those are the characteristics of socialism, moron.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 16, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The Historical Reasons Behind the U.S. Racial Wealth Gap
> 
> "The chasm begins with slavery, which was a huge generator of wealth for White Americans.
> 
> ...



*"In 2000, economist Robert S. Browne calculated that the income produced by enslaved people for their White owners prior to 1860 was between $1.4 trillion and $4.7 trillion in modern money.*

And then we broke and burned all their stuff.

*"In 1865, at the conclusion of the Civil War that ended slavery, freed slaves were promised 40 acres (16 hectares) of land to build an economic future for themselves.*

No they weren't.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 16, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Even with you dragging down the white average?


"Today, owning a home is the most common way Americans hold wealth. The working class gained access to the U.S. housing market in the 1930s with the creation of the modern mortgage, a part of broader policies to restore prosperity during the Great Depression. 

Black families, however, were largely left out through a practice called redlining. A federal agency called the Home Owners’ Loan Corporation assigned grades to neighborhoods based on criteria including the race and class of residents. Areas that got the lowest grade were deemed hazardous to lend to and color-coded red on maps, making it difficult for Black people to get mortgages"

The Historical Reasons Behind the U.S. Racial Wealth Gap


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 16, 2021)

dblack said:


> Socialists have this odd contradiction that they really won't let themselves confront: They insist that government is controlled by greedy capitalists, and in the same breath that the economy should be controlled by government.


Socialists believe the economy should work for the benefit of the majority of society instead of a small minority of "owners." Libertarians, like conservatives in general, believe the economy should primarily benefit oligarchs.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 16, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Who promised freed slaves 40 acres?


"After the American Civil War, newly freed Black adults were to receive 40 acres and a mule as a form of reparations for their bondage. 




"Did you know that Thaddeus Stevens, a White Radical Republican, proposed that idea on this day in history? Stevens urged Congress to confiscate the estates of Confederate leaders and distribute the land back to their former slaves in 40-acre increments."

September 6, 1865: Do We Deserve Reparations? | How We Buy Black


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 16, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "After the American Civil War, newly freed Black adults were to receive 40 acres and a mule as a form of reparations for their bondage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks. Nobody offered them 40 acres. 
Glad you finally learned something.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 16, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "Today, owning a home is the most common way Americans hold wealth. The working class gained access to the U.S. housing market in the 1930s with the creation of the modern mortgage, a part of broader policies to restore prosperity during the Great Depression.
> 
> Black families, however, were largely left out through a practice called redlining. A federal agency called the Home Owners’ Loan Corporation assigned grades to neighborhoods based on criteria including the race and class of residents. Areas that got the lowest grade were deemed hazardous to lend to and color-coded red on maps, making it difficult for Black people to get mortgages"
> 
> The Historical Reasons Behind the U.S. Racial Wealth Gap


That was 90 years ago, turd.


----------



## Colin norris (Dec 16, 2021)

Rambunctious said:


> Joe didn't win...the election was stolen....and that's not democracy...



And sun will rise in the West when you idiots and suckers get the evidence to  prove it.  You wouldn't know democracy if it crawled up your leg. You are so paranoid with hate from losing you're now invented scenarios to suit your ignorant position.  Grow up.


----------



## tahuyaman (Dec 16, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *It's hard for me to understand how an economic system dedicated to maximizing profit for a relative handful of society can be compatible with a political system allegedly based on one person/one vote?*
> 
> https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf
> 
> "Capitalism and democracy follow different logics: unequally distributed property rights on the one hand, equal civic and political rights on the other; profit-oriented trade within capitalism in contrast to the search for the common good within democracy; debate, *compromise and majority decision-making within democratic politics versus hierarchical decision-making by managers and capital owners."*


It benefits most everyone in our society whether you know it or not.


----------



## IM2 (Dec 17, 2021)

Rambunctious said:


> Today the USA is neither capitalist or Democratic.....


America has never been a democracy. And my ancestors were capital.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 17, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> How do any of those exploit productive labor? Be specific.


Why Stock Buybacks Are Dangerous for the Economy


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 17, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Why Stock Buybacks Are Dangerous for the Economy



Thanks for the link that doesn't explain how stock buybacks exploit productive labor.

It was useless for helping your claim.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 17, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *It's hard for me to understand how an economic system dedicated to maximizing profit for a relative handful of society can be compatible with a political system allegedly based on one person/one vote?*
> 
> https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf
> 
> "Capitalism and democracy follow different logics: unequally distributed property rights on the one hand, equal civic and political rights on the other; profit-oriented trade within capitalism in contrast to the search for the common good within democracy; debate, *compromise and majority decision-making within democratic politics versus hierarchical decision-making by managers and capital owners."*



Because people aren't as stupid as you imagine they are.  Killing the goose that lays the golden eggs doesn't help anyone.  Those handful of people you blubber about create the vast wealth that we enjoy.  Government creates nothing.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 17, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Why Stock Buybacks Are Dangerous for the Economy


Nothing i smor edangerous for the economy than politicians and bureaucrats.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 17, 2021)

Foolardi said:


> overnment Planners ... eh.More like Commie Planners.The opposite of Milton
> Friedman's -- Free to Choose --. Because the rule that best fits Big Brother
> Government is something even a 5th grader can extrapolate.
> The Bigger the Government the Smaller the Citizen.


*What sort of freedom did Milton and Pinochet bring to Chile?*



*Maybe you haven't noticed how often "free markets" require killing and enslavement?*

Human rights violations in Pinochet's Chile - Wikipedia

*"Human rights violations in Pinochet's Chile* were the crimes against humanity, persecution of opponents, political repression, and state terrorism committed by the Chilean Armed Forces, members of Carabineros de Chile and civil repressive agents members of a secret police, during the military dictatorship of Chile under General Augusto Pinochet from 1973 to 1990.

According to the Commission of Truth and Reconciliation (Rettig Commission) and the National Commission on Political Imprisonment and Torture (Valech Commission), the number of direct victims of human rights violations in Chile accounts for around 30,000 people: 27,255 tortured and 2,279 executed. In addition, some 200,000 people suffered exile and an unknown number went through clandestine centers and illegal detention.[_citation needed_]"


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 17, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *What sort of freedom did Milton and Pinochet bring to Chile?*
> View attachment 576778
> *Maybe you haven't noticed how often "free markets" require killing and enslavement?*
> 
> ...


That's a pile of commie lies.  Pinochet fought a civil war against commies who were trying to overthrow the government.  The people of Chile owe Pinochet a huge debt of thanks.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 17, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *What sort of freedom did Milton and Pinochet bring to Chile?*
> View attachment 576778
> *Maybe you haven't noticed how often "free markets" require killing and enslavement?*
> 
> ...



*What sort of freedom did Milton and Pinochet bring to Chile?*

The best sort. And they still have the strongest economy in South America.

*Maybe you haven't noticed how often "free markets" require killing and enslavement?*

You just have to kill enough Commies to keep your market free.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 17, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> In other words, decisions aren't made democratically. The workers are still working for someone else. That person is likely to be far more oppressive than a manager in a private economy.


*Dead wrong as usual*:

Socialism - Wikipedia

"One such system is the cooperative economy, a largely free market economy in which workers manage the firms and democratically determine remuneration levels and labour divisions. 

"Productive resources would be legally owned by the cooperative and rented to the workers, who would enjoy usufruct rights.[350] 

"Another form of decentralised planning is the use of cybernetics, or the use of computers to manage the allocation of economic inputs. 

*"The socialist-run government of Salvador Allende in Chile experimented with Project Cybersyn, a real-time information bridge between the government, state enterprises and consumers.[351] *

"Another, more recent variant is participatory economics, wherein the economy is planned by decentralised councils of workers and consumers."


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 17, 2021)

Foolardi said:


> I get it.Like F.D.R.'s Overuse of his WPA. Works Progress Administration.
> Which was used as example in Obama's Very first Spending bill.
> Within weeks of taking office.His American Recovery and Reinvestment act of 2009
> launched in febuary of that year.Somewhere in the neighborhood of $ 862 Billion.
> It grew in weeks from $ 787 Billion


Worker self-management applies more to private sector jobs like the 1100 jobs at the Carrier plant in Indianapolis  that Trump "saved" from outsourcing during the early days of his presidency.

A politician committed to worker self-management would have used the power of eminent domain to acquire the plant and then sell it to the workers.

Where would the workers get the money?





https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/10/26/trump-carrier-manufacturing-jobs/


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 17, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> No he didn't.


Fix it?
You're right.
He made it much worse.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 17, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> And?


Dividend payouts,
Stock buybacks.
And decisions made by a small number of board members all work to syphon wealth upwards from productive member of society to speculators and parasites getting richer from unearned income.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 17, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Why do you feel interest and stock price gains take money out of the economy?
> 
> Is it because you're a marxist moron?


*Hardly Rich-Bitch.

When debt grows faster than the productive economy it means more and more income and GDP needs to be paid to finance. 

Debts that can't be paid means transferring property to creditors. reducing consumer spending and home ownership rates, and sinking the economy into austerity in which only rich parasites (like you) profit.*

Debt and Power | Michael Hudson

"At 5 percent interest, a debt doubles every 15 years. 

"If you can imagine since the whole debt take-off in 1945, the first 15 years gets you to 1960. 

"Then, the debt doubles again by 1975, and doubles again by 1990, then again by 2005, and then today – 64 times the relatively small debt owed back in 1945, some 75 years ago. 

"And the creation of yet new credit (peoples’ debt to the banks and to wealthy savers) has grown at a similar rate even without new lending taking place, so the debt overhead actually has grown much, much more than that 5% a year. 

"It’s grown more like 15% per year. 

"That is much faster than national income or GDP. 

"This disparity in expansion paths means that more and more income and GDP needs to be paid each year, So, to answer your question, too much debt is when it can’t be paid – that is, can’t be paid without transferring property to creditors, reducing consumer spending and home ownership rates, and plunging the economy into austerity in which only the wealthy financial class is affluent."


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 17, 2021)

Flash said:


> The assholes are the welfare queens, Illegals and retarded Libtards that want the the US to be a Socialist shithole.


The assholes are the billionaire crony-capitalists like Trump who lie about why wealth and income inequality has exploded in the US over the last forty years.




Eight graphs that tell the story of U.S. economic inequality - Equitable Growth


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 17, 2021)

dblack said:


> Ahhh... lying again. The usual dodging and equivocation. Do you EVER stand behind your claims?


I claimed the vast majority of individuals working in a capitalist system are required to leave the decision making to someone else; do you disagree? 

I never claimed workers in a capitalist system were serfs or slaves; you did.

I said workers are required to leave decision making to others just as serfs and slaves were required to serve their lords and masters.

Not unlike you




The Koch Brothers’ Latin America “libertarian” roadshow


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 17, 2021)

dblack said:


> Free shit!!!!!


Free or government subsidized education and medical care lower the costs of living and doing business; why would Ayn Rand object to that?

FACT CHECK: Did Ayn Rand Receive Social Security Benefits?


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 17, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Dead wrong as usual*:
> 
> Socialism - Wikipedia
> 
> ...


You didn't prove me wrong.  You just spouted your sleazy propaganda.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 17, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Hardly Rich-Bitch.
> 
> When debt grows faster than the productive economy it means more and more income and GDP needs to be paid to finance.
> 
> ...



*When debt grows faster than the productive economy it means more and more income and GDP needs to be paid to finance.*

You shouldn't borrow in that case.

*Debts that can't be paid means transferring property to creditors. reducing consumer spending and home ownership rates, and sinking the economy into austerity in which only rich parasites (like you) profit.*

Creditors don't spend, invest and boost the economy?

*in which only rich parasites (like you) profit.
*
Saving and investing is no fair, eh comrade?

*"At 5 percent interest, a debt doubles every 15 years.*

So pay off your debt.

*"That is much faster than national income or GDP.*

So is my savings and investments.


----------



## Flash (Dec 17, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The assholes are the billionaire crony-capitalists like Trump who lie about why wealth and income inequality has exploded in the US over the last forty years.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The billionaires are the ones that back the Democrats.  One of them gave the filthy ass Democrats almost a half billion dollars.  Another one (Soros) fucking owns the Democrat party.

I don't give a shit about much money other people make.  I am not a greedy envious asshole like you Left Wing shitheads.

A wealthy person has never taken any of the money that I earned.

However the government takes my earned money by force every year and gives it away to welfare queens and Illegals.


----------



## dblack (Dec 17, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> I claimed the vast majority of individuals working in a capitalist system are required to leave the decision making to someone else; do you disagree?


Lying again. Here's what you said:


> It is required under the capitalist system just as the serf was required to work his lord's land for his entire life and slaves were destined to serve their masters.


That's not true. Why can't you just admit you were wrong?


----------



## dblack (Dec 17, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Free or government subsidized education and medical care lower the costs of living and doing business; why would Ayn Rand object to that?
> 
> FACT CHECK: Did Ayn Rand Receive Social Security Benefits?


I don't give a shit about Ayn Rand. But using government services that we all pay for, while still opposing the existence of those services, isn't hypocritical. It's a subtle but important distinction that you are, frankly, too stupid to understand.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 17, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> So, how much does the productive economy have to shrink in order to continue sucking-up an exponentially growing volume of interest and stock-price gains to cover all this corporate, business, and personal debt, Rich-Bitch?
> 
> Debt and Power | Michael Hudson


It doesn't shrink, moron.  It grows.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 17, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Why do you feel interest and stock price gains take money out of the economy?
> 
> Is it because you're a marxist moron?


That's rich.  Stock price increases take money out of the economy, but the government doesn't take $5 trillion out of the economy every year?


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 17, 2021)

dblack said:


> I don't give a shit about Ayn Rand. But using government services that we all pay for, while still opposing the existence of those services, isn't hypocritical. It's a subtle but important distinction that you are, frankly, too stupid to understand.


Left wingers keep insisting that only those who support government programs are entitled to receive benefits.  That notion is profoundly fascist.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 17, 2021)

dblack said:


> I don't really get the deification of democracy. It's a reasonable mechanism for making decisions when it's imperative we're all on the same page. But most decisions facing society don't require everyone to be on the same page. ie in most cases we don't need to take a vote and force everyone to take the same path. But that's what socialists want. I'm not sure why.


Democracy is a bad way to make decisions.  The only justification for using it is because we don't have any other way.  I genuinely can't think of anything that requires a democratic solution.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 17, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> That's rich.  Stock price increases take money out of the economy, but the government doesn't take $5 trillion out of the economy every year?



Commies are big on single entry accounting.
That might be why the USSR was so successful. LOL!


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 17, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *There's a tension between the profit motive and one person/one vote that is transforming US democracy into an oligarchy:*
> 
> https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf
> 
> ...


The "tension" is the fact that democracy loots the capitalist system for its wealth.  Democracy is fundamentally a parasite.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 17, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *When debt grows faster than the productive economy it means more and more income and GDP needs to be paid to finance.*
> 
> You shouldn't borrow in that case.
> 
> ...


George's conception of a parasite is someone who works hard, invests and saves his money.

It's 1984!


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 18, 2021)

dblack said:


> The right to make other people give you stuff.


Like a lower capital gains tax rate?


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 18, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Like a lower capital gains tax rate?


How does that make anyone give me stuff?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 18, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> ou're right, I'll never learn your lesson of never saving and never investing.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 18, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> here is no right to education, clean air and water or medical care, period.


Only in your polluted, indoctrinated, capitalist mind.




Universal Declaration of Human Rights - Wikipedia


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 18, 2021)

georgephillip said:


>



Thank goodness you don't have any money, you're still pure.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 18, 2021)

dblack said:


> What liberties? If you're talking about all the goods and services you've declared to be "rights", I guess it would be whomever you try to take them from. It's never made much sense to me. Maybe you can clarify. Probably not


In #2513 you said: "In general when liberals or marxists use the term "human right", they mean "free shit". Human rights include assembly, movement, religion, speech, and thought. Do you expect people to pay for such "rights"? Do you imagine my right to free speech requires you to give up yours?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 18, 2021)

dblack said:


> As you have characterized them, they are goods and services that others must provide you. You're claiming a right to demand the service of others.


If I've ever characterized a human right as a good or service others must provide, it was unintentional.  Apparently, you subscribe to the "survival of the fittest" approach to society while I believe in reasons and rights. I don't see how freedom of speech or education or medical care or assembly can be construed as a zero-sum transaction, do you?


----------



## dblack (Dec 18, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Like a lower capital gains tax rate?


No. You seem confused. But then, you're a socialist. It goes with the territory.


----------



## dblack (Dec 18, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> If I've ever characterized a human right as a good or service others must provide, it was unintentional.


Do you claim health care as a right? Housing? Food? Education? Maybe I was wrong about you.



> Apparently, you subscribe to the "survival of the fittest" approach to society while I believe in reasons and rights.


Nope. I don't believe in "survival of the fittest" and you don't believe in "reasons and rights". You don't even understand them.



> I don't see how freedom of speech or education or medical care or assembly can be construed as a zero-sum transaction, do you?


I don't know what the euphemism "a zero-sum transaction" is, nor do I care. But if you're claiming medical care as a right - that's free shit! That's a service others must provide. Which you deny above. How can you contradict yourself in the same fucking post?'


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 18, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Only in your polluted, indoctrinated, capitalist mind.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's a communist document.  No legitimate right can involve forcing other people to supply it.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 18, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> If I've ever characterized a human right as a good or service others must provide, it was unintentional.


You just did, turd.  You claimed education is a right.



georgephillip said:


> Apparently, you subscribe to the "survival of the fittest" approach to society while I believe in reasons and rights. I don't see how freedom of speech or education or medical care or assembly can be construed as a zero-sum transaction, do you?



What does that have to do with anything.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 18, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> In #2513 you said: "In general when liberals or marxists use the term "human right", they mean "free shit". Human rights include assembly, movement, religion, speech, and thought. Do you expect people to pay for such "rights"? Do you imagine my right to free speech requires you to give up yours?


What is your poster supposed to mean?  It's not an answer to his question.


----------



## dblack (Dec 19, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> What is your poster supposed to mean?  It's not an answer to his question.


No, but it fills the quota.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 19, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> We'll take that to mean "never."


I provided a credible source for the claim prior to WWI wartime allies had never required debt repayment among them., and the US reversed that policy. If you have a different view, post it.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 19, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Those aren't liberties. If your policies were ever implement, we would all be starving.


Free medical care and higher education lower the costs of living and doing  business. If those two rights were ever implemented in this country (as they are in much of the rest of the world), there would be fewer US financial billionaires and millions of more middle-class jobs.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 19, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Free medical care and higher education lower the costs of living and doing  business.



They obviously don't. There's nothing more expensive than free medical care.  "Free education" is so expensive because the government provides it.



georgephillip said:


> If those two rights were ever implemented in this country (as they are in much of the rest of the world), there would be fewer US financial billionaires and millions of more middle-class jobs.



Rights don't have to be implemented.  They don't require the government to fund them.  They just need to be recognized.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 19, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> I provided a credible source for the claim prior to WWI wartime allies had never required debt repayment among them., and the US reversed that policy. If you have a different view, post it.


Your source is a communist.  Therefore, not credible.  

Prior to WW I countries hardly ever loaned other countries money to fight a war.  Can you provide an example where one did?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 19, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> I provided a credible source for the claim prior to WWI wartime allies had never required debt repayment among them., and the US reversed that policy. If you have a different view, post it.



Which wars? How much debt? Post that link.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 19, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> A smart person feared FDR more than any "private power."


*Which side of the Business Plot was the "smart" side?*




Business Plot - Wikipedia

"The *Business Plot *(also called the *Wall Street Putsch*[1] and *The White House Putsch*) was a political conspiracy in 1933 in the United States to overthrow the government of President Franklin D. Roosevelt and install a dictator.[2] 

"Retired Marine Corps Major General Smedley Butler asserted that wealthy businessmen were plotting to create a fascist veterans' organization with *Butler as its leader and use it in a coup d'état to overthrow Roosevelt."*


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 19, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Which side of the Business Plot was the "smart" side?*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He sounds almost as kooky as you.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 19, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> He sounds almost as kooky as you.



Director of Public Safety for PhiladelphiaSmedley Butler


Butler in uniform, c. 1929Birth nameSmedley Darlington ButlerNickname(s)"Old Gimlet Eye" "The Fighting Quaker"BornJuly 30, 1881
West Chester, Pennsylvania, U.S.DiedJune 21, 1940 (aged 58)
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, U.S.BuriedOaklands Cemetery, West Goshen Township, Pennsylvania



39°58′46.4″N 75°37′17.7″WAllegianceUnited States of AmericaService/branch



Marine CorpsYears of service1898–1931Rank

 Major generalCommands held
3d Battalion, 1st Marines
13th Marines
Marine Barracks, Quantico
Marine Corps Base, San Diego
3d Marine Brigade
Marine Barracks, Quantico
Battles/wars*Spanish–American War
Philippine–American War*

Battle of Noveleta
*Boxer Rebellion*

Battle of Tientsin (WIA)
Battle of San Tan Pating
*Banana Wars*

Battle of Masaya
Siege of Granada, Nicaragua
Battle of Coyotepe Hill
Infiltration of Mexico City
Battle of Fort Dipitie
Battle of Fort Rivière
*Mexican Revolution*

Battle of Veracruz
*World War I*

Defensive Sector
Awards


 Medal of Honor (2)


 Marine Corps Brevet Medal


 National Order of Honour and Merit, Grand Cross (Haiti)


 Military Medal (Haiti)


 Commander of the Order of the Black Star (France)
_See more_
Relations
Smedley Darlington (grandfather)
Thomas S. Butler (father)
Other workActivist, official, lecturer, writer
"Major General *Smedley Darlington Butler* (July 30, 1881 – June 21, 1940), nicknamed '*Old Gimlet Eye'*,[1] was a senior United States Marine Corps officer who fought in the Philippine–American War, the Boxer Rebellion, the Mexican Revolution and World War I. 

"During his 34-year career as a Marine, he participated in military actions in the Philippines, China, and Central America; the Caribbean during the Banana Wars; and France in World War I. 

*"Butler was, at the time of his death, the most decorated Marine in U.S. history"

Smedley Butler - Wikipedia

Which side of the Business Plot was kooky, Traitor?*


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 19, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Privatized? LOL!


Private banker, Turd.




"Private debt is created for different reasons than public debt. 

"Public banks would not lend for corporate takeover loans. 

"They would not lend to corporate raiders, or for stock buybacks. 

"They would not create junk mortgages way beyond the ability of borrowers to pay. Government debt would be extended presumably for spending for the public purpose – to increase economic growth and increase prosperity. 

*"Private debt these days has become largely dysfunctional. Its effect has often been to shift prosperity from 90% of the population to the 10% of the population that controls the banks and the creditors. *

"So private debt has become corrosive and parasitic, while public debt is supposed to be handled well – except to the extent that the oligarchy has taken over the government."

Debt and Power | Michael Hudson


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 19, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> If you don't have a useful, in demand product, you'll never have any sales.


"Britain’s top financial watchdog has said that Wall Street and other financial centers are mostly focused on 'socially useless activity.' 

"This week, John Cassidy unpacks that statement in The New Yorker. '*Why on earth should finance be the biggest and most highly paid industry when it’s just a utility, like sewage or gas?' *an economist asks Cassidy. 

"While Wall Street often heralds itself as an engine of job creation, Cassidy says, Wall Street’s role in financing new businesses is a small portion of what it does.' Goldman Sachs, for example, raked in 63 percent of its revenue between July and September from trading."

Wall Street 'Socially Useless'


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 19, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Smedley ButlerDirector of Public Safety for Philadelphia
> 
> 
> Butler in uniform, c. 1929Birth nameSmedley Darlington ButlerNickname(s)"Old Gimlet Eye" "The Fighting Quaker"BornJuly 30, 1881
> ...


So?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 19, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> ou have the chart for communism?
> Probably 30 pages long, eh tovarisch?


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 19, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "Britain’s top financial watchdog has said that Wall Street and other financial centers are mostly focused on 'socially useless activity.'



He's obviously incompetent because stocks perform a very necessary function in the economy.  He must be a commie moron like you.



georgephillip said:


> "This week, John Cassidy unpacks that statement in The New Yorker. '*Why on earth should finance be the biggest and most highly paid industry when it’s just a utility, like sewage or gas?' *an economist asks Cassidy.
> 
> "While Wall Street often heralds itself as an engine of job creation, Cassidy says, Wall Street’s role in financing new businesses is a small portion of what it does.' Goldman Sachs, for example, raked in 63 percent of its revenue between July and September from trading."
> 
> Wall Street 'Socially Useless'



It's not the biggest or mostly highly paid industry.  Apple is the biggest corporation in the world, not Goldman Sachs.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 19, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "They would not create junk mortgages way beyond the ability of borrowers to pay.



Or make student loans way beyond the ability of borrowers to pay.....ummm.....errr.....never mind.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 19, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "Britain’s top financial watchdog has said that Wall Street and other financial centers are mostly focused on 'socially useless activity.'
> 
> "This week, John Cassidy unpacks that statement in The New Yorker. '*Why on earth should finance be the biggest and most highly paid industry when it’s just a utility, like sewage or gas?' *an economist asks Cassidy.
> 
> ...



_"Britain’s top financial watchdog has said that Wall Street and other financial centers are mostly focused on 'socially useless activity.'_

And yet, in demand and useful.

_"While Wall Street often heralds itself as an engine of job creation, Cassidy says, Wall Street’s role in financing new businesses is a small portion of what it does.'_

New businesses aren't the only ones that need financing.

_Goldman Sachs, for example, raked in 63 percent of its revenue between July and September from trading."_

But they didn't make any of that from you, eh?
You taught them a lesson. Made it worth being poor and miserable.
Do you think they noticed your absence from the markets?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 19, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> View attachment 577579



Your image is missing the gulags, forced starvation and much lower standards of living.
You have a better one?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 20, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> How did Capitalists do that in 1910?


By allowing shareholders (parasites) to benefit from company earnings while making (productive) society responsible for their loses.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 20, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> By allowing shareholders (parasites) to benefit from company earnings while making (productive) society responsible for their loses.


Shareholders don't do that.  Congress does.

Furthermore, shareholders are not parasites.  The company would not exist without them.  How do you imagine companies come into existence, magic?


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 20, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> So now Wall Street banks and corporations steal your homes, savings, and pensions?
> 
> Is that your idea of
> 
> ...


No corporation ever stole from me.  Government, on the other hand, does it on a daily basis.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 20, 2021)

dblack said:


> But socialism, ultimately is. Democracy is fine when its scope and use is strictly constrained - ie it's only used when necessary. But socialists want "both society and the economy run democratically" - and that's everything. That's what's totalitarian about your goals.


My definition of totalitarian: a system of government that is centralized and dictatorial and requires complete subservience to the state. That's not majority rule. That's rugged individualism manifested by "free" market mechanisms over democratic planning and limitations on private control of resources.

You look at Stalin and see a socialist.
I see a rich crony capitalist tyrant. 




Stalin Was the First Koch Sucker – Politics Plus


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 20, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> My definition of totalitarian: a system of government that is centralized and dictatorial and requires complete subservience to the state. That's not majority rule. That's rugged individualism manifested by "free" market mechanisms over democratic planning and limitations on private control of resources.



How can rugged individualism be totalitarian? According to your own definition it doesn't fit the bill.  Are rugged individuals "subservient" to the state?  Was early American government "centralized?"  Was it dictatorial?

I'll give you one thing, it definitely not democratic.  The latter is often totalitarian.  Just take our current government.  It dictates everything we do.

You obviously don't understand the meaning of ordinary English words.  You're a prog moron.



georgephillip said:


> You look at Stalin and see a socialist.
> I see a rich crony capitalist tyrant.
> 
> 
> ...



The picture at the right is meaningless.  Koch wasn't a crony of our government.  Anyone who says Stalin was a capitalist is a fucking moron.   Your photo says nothing about our government.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 20, 2021)

dblack said:


> I don't play the "sides" game. But how about this? The day the Koch brothers, or any other "private tyrants", have you arrested, be sure and post. I'll admit you were right. For now, you're not.


Why limit private tyrannies to those who can have you arrested?
How many innocent human beings have died from the pollution of Koch industries? 

How many native Americans have been defrauded by your heroic capitalists? 

The rich, rugged individualists you seem to admire have a long history of congressional investigations, DoJ consent decrees, civil lawsuits and felony convictions that pose a bigger threat to democracy than Trump could ever imagine, but maybe that's what impresses you the most about private profits obtained by socializing losses?


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 20, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Why limit private tyrannies to those who can have you arrested?



Because A tyranny can only exist when people can arrest you, moron.


georgephillip said:


> How many innocent human beings have died from the pollution of Koch industries?



Virtually none.



georgephillip said:


> How many native Americans have been defrauded by your heroic capitalists?



Politicians and government officials have defrauded them any times more.



georgephillip said:


> The rich, rugged individualists you seem to admire have a long history of congressional investigations, DoJ consent decrees, civil lawsuits and felony convictions that pose a bigger threat to democracy than Trump could ever imagine, but maybe that's what impresses you the most about private profits obtained by socializing losses?



Government socializes the losses, moron, and in most cases government mismanagement creates the losses.

Are you really such a moron that you believe there wouldn't be any crime or corruption in a socialist society?  We already know the USSR was rife with crime and corruption.  China is currently rife with crime and corruption.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 20, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Why limit private tyrannies to those who can have you arrested?
> How many innocent human beings have died from the pollution of Koch industries?
> 
> How many native Americans have been defrauded by your heroic capitalists?
> ...



*How many innocent human beings have died from the pollution of Koch industries?*

2 maybe 3?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 20, 2021)

Flash said:


> View attachment 573632


*Make sure you bomb one half of the country into oblivion AFTER you deny free elections peninsula-wide in 1945.*




U.S. War Crimes of Korean War 2/2 - Impunity Watch

"Though the North Koreans had a reputation for viciousness, according to Cumings, U.S. soldiers actually engaged in more civilian massacres. 

"This included dropping over half a million tons of bombs and thousands of tons of napalm, more than was loosed on the entire Pacific theater in World War II."


*How many innocent human beings has the heroic US military murdered since 1945?*


----------



## dblack (Dec 20, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> My definition of totalitarian: a system of government that is centralized and dictatorial and requires complete subservience to the state. That's not majority rule.
> [dumbass memes omitted for decency]


Majority rule can certainly be totalitarian. And if you think majority rule should be applied to everything, that's exactly what you're asking for.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 20, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Cotton gin!!!


*How much would you have earned from that?*




The Impact of the Cotton Gin on Slavery - History in Charts


----------



## dblack (Dec 20, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Why limit private tyrannies to those who can have you arrested?


Define private tyranny.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 20, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How much would you have earned from that?



We'll never know.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 20, 2021)

dblack said:


> Define private tyranny.



George made minimum wage his entire life.
That's private tyranny.
Nothing to do with his bad attitude and lack of skills.


----------



## dblack (Dec 20, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> George made minimum wage his entire life.
> That's private tyranny.
> Nothing to do with his bad attitude and lack of skills.


I doubt he'll offer a definition. Vague, suggesting buzzwords is par for the course.


----------



## Flash (Dec 20, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Make sure you bomb one half of the country into oblivion AFTER you deny free elections peninsula-wide in 1945.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Just like a fucking Marxist to condemn the US for liberating South Korea from the Communists.   And to ignore the fact that Capitalist SK has a booming democratic economy while Socialist NK is an authoritarian oppressive third world shithole.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 20, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> America's economic success was not solely due to cotton. That's a commie myth


 *Strawman arguments aren't much of an improvement over ad hominem.
American economic success was not solely due to cotton, but cotton was its most important export:*

How slavery became America’s first big business

"Slavery, particularly the cotton slavery that existed from the end of the 18th century to the beginning of the Civil War, was a thoroughly modern business, one that was continuously changing to maximize profits.

" To grow the cotton that would clothe the world and fuel global industrialization, thousands of young enslaved men and women — the children of stolen ancestors legally treated as property — were transported from Maryland and Virginia hundreds of miles south, *and forcibly retrained to become America’s most efficient laborers.* 

"As they were pushed into the expanding territories of Mississippi and Louisiana, sold and bid on at auctions, and resettled onto forced labor camps, they were given a task: to plant and pick thousands of pounds of cotton."


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 20, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> a thoroughly modern business, one that was continuously changing to maximize profits.



And that was the worst part, eh comrade?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 20, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> How do they steal your homes, savings, and pensions? We know beyond all doubt that the government steals our homes, savings, and pensions.


'Private equity stole our pensions'




"Can workers in 21st-century Britain have their pensions stolen from under their noses? 

"This is exactly what the GMB union says has happened to hundreds of thousands of employees of companies that collapsed after being bought by private equity firms.

"Employees who contributed for decades to pension schemes now find themselves in poverty after leveraged-buyout firms walked away from pension liabilities amounting to at least £2bn, according to figures from the union last week."


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 20, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> 'Private equity stole our pensions'
> 
> 
> 
> ...


_
"Can workers in 21st-century Britain have their pensions stolen from under their noses?

"This is exactly what the GMB union says has happened to hundreds of thousands of employees of companies that collapsed after being bought by private equity firms._

What about pensions at firms that collapsed that weren't bought by private equity firms?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 20, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> The term "libertarian socialism" is an oxymoron. You aren't free when government controls your livelihood.


So, those serving in the armed forces aren't free?


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 20, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *How many innocent human beings have died from the pollution of Koch industries?*
> 
> 2 maybe 3?


Probably none.  Some have died in industrial accidents.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 20, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> So, those serving in the armed forces aren't free?


Nope, not at all.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 20, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> 'Private equity stole our pensions'
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What you mean is that the firms went bankrupt and therefore couldn't pay their pensions.  That's why U.S. firms went to 401Ks


----------



## dblack (Dec 20, 2021)

What exactly is a "private tyranny", george?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 21, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Enron didn't do anything wrong. All the charges were thrown out by higher courts.


*Hardly*.





"Enron’s leadership fooled regulators with fake holdings and off-the-books accounting practices.
Enron used special purpose vehicles (SPVs), or special purpose entities (SPEs), to hide its mountains of debt and toxic assets from investors and creditors.2
The price of Enron’s shares went from $90.75 at its peak to $0.26 at bankruptcy.1
The company paid its creditors more than $21.7 billion from 2004 to 2011."
Enron Scandal: The Fall of a Wall Street Darling

*All capitalism IS fraud.*


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 21, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Enron murdered tens of millions fewer Russians than the Soviet Union.


*Exactly how many Russians were murdered by the USSR?
How does that number compare to your hero Hitler or his recent American capitalist descendants?*




The Harvard Boys Do Russia


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 21, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Exactly how many Russians were murdered by the USSR?
> How does that number compare to your hero Hitler or his recent American capitalist descendants?*
> 
> 
> ...



*Exactly how many Russians were murdered by the USSR?*

About 60 million.


----------



## basquebromance (Dec 21, 2021)

you know what it takes to be economically successful? pick out 2 good parents and be born in America!


----------



## dblack (Dec 21, 2021)

basquebromance said:


> you know what it takes to be economically successful? pick out 2 good parents and be born in America!


Hey! How's the trollin'?


----------



## basquebromance (Dec 21, 2021)




----------



## basquebromance (Dec 21, 2021)

dblack said:


> Hey! How's the trollin'?


goin' great! what about you?


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 21, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Hardly*.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


All these charges were thrown out after they were appealed to a higher court.


----------



## Flash (Dec 21, 2021)




----------



## georgephillip (Dec 21, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> What state powers does a corporation wield?


The power to prosecute when government refuses.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 21, 2021)

dblack said:


> Economic power is radically different than political power. I don't suppose you'll ever acknowledge that. And as long as you refuse to do that, I'll be unable to take you seriously.


*Economic power controls political power in this country.*




"Former Vice President Joe Biden assured rich donors at a ritzy New York fundraiser that '*nothing would fundamentally change*' if he is elected.

"Biden told donors at an event at the Carlyle Hotel in Manhattan on Tuesday evening that he would not 'demonize' the rich and promised that *'no one’s standard of living will change, nothing would fundamentally change*,' Bloomberg News reported."

Biden to rich donors: "Nothing will fundamentally change"


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 21, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Why should Standard Oil pay anything to Russian dictators?


Because Standard Oil helped Hitler murder millions of Russians.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 21, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> ll democracies are designed to fail.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 21, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The power to prosecute when government refuses.



Nah.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 21, 2021)

dblack said:


> To hell with minorities. Majority rule for every. fucking. thing!
> 
> I don't want to accomplish that.


Do you want financial interests to disable government, which is the only power strong enough to tax and check their power via public regulation? 

The last forty years have seen a feudal-type financial version of the military conquests that seized land and levied tribute a thousand years ago. 

When the "magic of compound interest" elevates debts beyond the ability to be paid, consumers must be taxed more heavily, and public spending must be rolled back to squeeze out more fiscal surplus to pay the bankers and bondholders.

Only Democracy has the power to prevent that from happening.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 21, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> When the "magic of compound interest" elevates debts beyond the ability to be paid, consumers must be taxed more heavily, and public spending must be rolled back to squeeze out more fiscal surplus to pay the bankers and bondholders.



Stop borrowing from the banks. 
Tell the government to stop selling bonds.
And meet your obligations, deadbeat.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 21, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> But enough about communists.


"Adam Smith was very much against colonialism because that lead to wars, and wars led to public debt. 

"He said the solution to prevent this financial class of bondholders burdening the economy by imposing more and more taxes on consumer goods every time they went to war was to finance wars on a pay-as-you-go basis. 

*"Instead of borrowing, you’d tax the people."*

The inversion of Classical Economics | Michael Hudson


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 21, 2021)

struth said:


> when it comes to Common Stock traded on the Stock Exchange.


.The opportunity to buy publicly traded stock depends on how much money you have. Therefore, anybody with less money than a Walton heir has less opportunity to buy stock than the heir does.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 21, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Any of your marxists are good for a laugh.


Especially for those ignorant of economic history.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 21, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "Adam Smith was very much against colonialism because that lead to wars, and wars led to public debt.
> 
> "He said the solution to prevent this financial class of bondholders burdening the economy by imposing more and more taxes on consumer goods every time they went to war was to finance wars on a pay-as-you-go basis.
> 
> ...



*"Adam Smith was very much against colonialism because that lead to wars, and wars led to public debt.*

No more colonies. You have any more areas of agreement with Adam Smith?

*"Instead of borrowing, you’d tax the people."*

Commies taxed the people 100%. How well did that work?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 21, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Especially for those ignorant of economic history.



I know. 
The best definition of "ignorant of economic history" is anyone today still in favor of communism.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 21, 2021)

struth said:


> Engels was a wealthy man


*Fortunately he wasn't overly impressed with an accident of birth:*

Friedrich Engels - Wikipedia

"In 1848, Engels co-authored _The Communist Manifesto_ with Marx and also authored and co-authored (primarily with Marx) many other works. 

*"Later, Engels supported Marx financially, allowing him to do research and write Das Kapital. *

"After Marx's death, Engels edited the second and third volumes of _Das Kapital_. 

"Additionally, Engels organised Marx's notes on the _Theories of Surplus Value_ which were later published as the 'fourth volume' of _Das Kapital_.[8][9] 

"In 1884, he published _The Origin of the Family, Private Property and the State_ on the basis of Marx's ethnographic research."


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 21, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> I can buy WalMart shares, you can buy WalMart shares, a Walton can buy WalMart shares.
> 
> Well, maybe you can't. LOL!


I can't be a parasite?
'Sounds like good news to me.


----------



## protectionist (Dec 21, 2021)

Rambunctious said:


> Today the USA is neither capitalist or Democratic.....


Today, the US is too much of a MESS, to allow any clssification.


----------



## protectionist (Dec 21, 2021)

wamose said:


> Capitalism is what allowed our country to develop into the greatest country in the world. Central planning would have sentenced us to a perpetual state of poverty, shortages, distrust, no freedom and a total dependence on government followed by economic collapse and chaos. You people who would rather be a part of the "collective" should pick one of those great Marxist destinations and go there. It'll be good for your head.


Yes, capitalism has been good for America.  Our growth and prosperity came from it, including my best years as a business owner, which was a win-win-win for all involved.

Sometimes however, certain industries within capitalism, go a bit too far and, while profitting extensively themselves, they ruin things for other businesses and the public. This is why capitalism does need to have some degree of socialism, and why the government for the people has to step in and keep things on an even keel.

The US has been a combination of socialism and capitalism at least since the 1930's, and it has worked well. When either capitalism or socialism go to extremes, without any balance whatsoever, that's when things go bad.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 21, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> I can't be a parasite?
> 'Sounds like good news to me.



*I can't be a parasite?*

Why would you change now?
Sounds like you've been one your entire life.
What you can't do is buy stock with zero money saved.


----------



## protectionist (Dec 21, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *I can't be a parasite?*
> 
> Why would you change now?
> Sounds like you've been one your entire life.
> What you can't do is buy stock with zero money saved.




I was saving $250 month to buy a car. Now with a $250/mo rent increase, that $250/mo is going to go to my landlord.

He also cant buy stock after being nuclear annhilated.  America needs to see that we are on the eve of destruction.  (Russia)


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 21, 2021)

protectionist said:


> He also cant buy stock after being nuclear annhilated.  America needs to see that we are on the eve of destruction.  (Russia)


----------



## protectionist (Dec 21, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


>


Ha ha. I couldn't think of his name. Thanks.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 21, 2021)

georgephillip said:


>


There certainly is an alternative.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 21, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Because Standard Oil helped Hitler murder millions of Russians.


How did it do that?


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 21, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The power to prosecute when government refuses.


It has no such powers, moron.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 21, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Capitalism doesn't seek anything, moron. Your anthrophomising is horseshit. Your terms are bullshit.


*What about profits?*

What are the most important aspects of a capitalist system?

"Accumulation of Capital​"The centerpiece of a capitalist system is the accumulation of capital. 

"  *In a capitalist system, the driving force behind economic activity is to make a profit. *

"Capitalists see amassing profits as a way to provide a powerful incentive to work harder, innovate more and produce things more efficiently than if the government had sole control over citizens' net worth. 

"This financial incentive is the reason capitalist economies see innovation as going hand-in-hand with their market system."


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 21, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Do you want financial interests to disable government, which is the only power strong enough to tax and check their power via public regulation?
> 
> The last forty years have seen a feudal-type financial version of the military conquests that seized land and levied tribute a thousand years ago.
> 
> ...


You said private corporations control the government.  Now your admitting it's the other way around.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 21, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> .The opportunity to buy publicly traded stock depends on how much money you have.



You have the same opportunity to buy, you just can't buy the same amount.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 21, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *What about profits?*
> 
> What are the most important aspects of a capitalist system?
> 
> ...



_Capitalists see amassing profits as a way to provide a powerful incentive to work harder,_

Yes, individuals respond to incentives.

_"This financial incentive is the reason capitalist economies see innovation as going hand-in-hand with their market system."_

And that's the reason communist economies don't innovate. 
That's the reason communist economies suck.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 21, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Has a so-called "private tyrant" ever executed anyone?


*Sure.
When has capitalism existed without killing workers?*

The 10 Biggest Strikes In U.S. History

"The strikers protested unsafe conditions, oppressive hours, and paltry pay. When railroad worker Charles Hall was fired unfairly, it was the final straw. 

"During the strike, violent clashes broke out between pro-labor crowds and company-hired security forces & police across the country from Texas to Illinois, leaving *at least nine dead* and dozens injured."


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 21, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> .The opportunity to buy publicly traded stock depends on how much money you have. Therefore, anybody with less money than a Walton heir has less opportunity to buy stock than the heir does.











						Forms and Applications
					

Find the forms you need in one convenient place. Open an account, roll over an IRA, and more.




					www.schwab.com
				




Here you go. $0 commissions on most trades.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 21, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Sure.
> When has capitalism existed without killing workers?*
> 
> The 10 Biggest Strikes In U.S. History
> ...


An accident is not an execution, moron.  Socialist enterprises also have accidents.






Strikers are breaking the law if they occupy company property.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 22, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> No, I mean people like Woodrow Wilson and Margret Sanger.
> 
> You really are ignorant of the history of your ideology, aren't you?


*I'm not confused about where Hitler went for inspiration.
Have you noticed how conservatives fear equality?*

Why the Nazis studied American race laws for inspiration

"They (Nazis) debated whether they should bring Jim Crow segregation to the Third Reich. 

"They engaged in detailed discussion of the statutes from the 30 US states that criminalised racially mixed marriages. 

"They reviewed how the various US states determined who counted as a ‘Negro’ or a ‘Mongol’, and weighed whether they should adopt US techniques in their own approach to determining who counted as a Jew. 

*"Throughout the meeting the most ardent supporters of the US model were the most radical Nazis in the room."*


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 22, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Wilson was spouting the theory of Social Darwinism before WW I, moron. So was Margret Sanger. That makes it clear that the NAZIs didn't invent the concept. American liberals did.


*Racists sprouted Social Darwinism and white supremacists invented the concept:*

Why the Nazis studied American race laws for inspiration

"But the reality is that, in the early 20th century, the US, with its vigorous and creative legal culture, led the world in racist lawmaking. 

"That was not only true of the Jim Crow South. 

"It was true on the national level as well.

"The US had race-based immigration law, admired by racists all over the world; and the Nazis, like their Right-wing European successors today (and so many US voters) were obsessed with the dangers posed by immigration."


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 22, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Racists sprouted Social Darwinism and white supremacists invented the concept:*
> 
> Why the Nazis studied American race laws for inspiration
> 
> ...


The bottom line is that leftwing Dims like Woodrow Wilson and Margaret Sanger promoted social darwinism long before the NAZIs endorsed it.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 22, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Have you noticed how conservatives fear equality?



What's equality? Why do they fear it?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 22, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> If you're going to discuss economics, then use the terms economics uses, and not some hocus pocus you or Karl Marx invented.







"Karl Marx, Inflation, and the Gold Standard​
"Marx applied the labor value theory to money. 

"According to Marx, the use of a particular commodity like gold or silver for money rests on the fact that — like all other commodities — *there is an amount of 'socially necessary labor' required to produce it. *

"If, for example, one ounce of gold requires ten hours’ labor, its value is equal to another product requiring ten hours’ labor. 

"Marx’s labor theory led him to say that '*Although gold and silver are not by nature money, money is by nature gold and silver'"

Lenin and Marx: Sound Money Advocates? | Louis Rouanet*


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 22, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "Karl Marx, Inflation, and the Gold Standard​
> "Marx applied the labor value theory to money.



Which is easily proven wrong.



georgephillip said:


> "According to Marx, the use of a particular commodity like gold or silver for money rests on the fact that — like all other commodities — *there is an amount of 'socially necessary labor' required to produce it. *



Marx is wrong, of course.



georgephillip said:


> "If, for example, one ounce of gold requires ten hours’ labor, its value is equal to another product requiring ten hours’ labor.



Uh  .  .  .  .  . no.  If an orange costs $1.00 on April 1, and there is a severe frost in Florida on April 2, why does it cost $1.50 on April 3?  The same amount of labor went into growing it.



georgephillip said:


> "Marx’s labor theory led him to say that '*Although gold and silver are not by nature money, money is by nature gold and silver'"
> 
> Lenin and Marx: Sound Money Advocates? | Louis Rouanet*



Marx is a buffoon who knew nothing about economics..  I just proved it.


----------



## Ringo (Dec 23, 2021)

The Chinese have taken up against tick-tokers. By the way, banksters love them very much: they graze outside the "social state", they do not ask for pensions. There are only a few successful tick-tokers
"The Chinese "queen of live broadcasts" Viya was fined $210 million for tax evasion. Investors lost 12% of Bilibili and Ali Baba"
As the "virtual economy of gags" becomes established against the background of automation, the main way of making money for the impoverished population will be the monetization of the protrusion of their mental abnormalities. 
Shamelessness in public was recently considered a sign of mental illness.

Tik-tok will become the main cultural channel of the capitalist future, predicted the film "Idiocracy"


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 23, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> You still haven't explained what makes a wealthy person a "tyrant."


Wealthy tyrants use government to serve their interests at the expense of a 90% majority of society; why do you think that's a good idea?




Oligarchy Archives


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 23, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> I favor private currency so government can't use it as a means to loot everyone who has a bank account or any financial instrument denominated in the units of that currency.


What prevents the issuers of your private currency from looting your bank account? Would you like Wall Street to control the monopoly of violence instead of government?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 23, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Do they accept poor old whiney commies as immigrants?
> Let us know when you're leaving.


Trump will be living in Moscow before I leave.
How about you?




Trump facing racketeering charges


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 23, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> No medical or student loan bankruptcies in Cuba.
> Of course not much education or medical care there either.


How do infant mortality rates in Cuba compare with Chicago?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 23, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Trump will be living in Moscow before I leave.
> How about you?
> 
> 
> ...



America is the worst, but you're not moving to a commie paradise? LOL!


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 23, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How do infant mortality rates in Cuba compare with Chicago?



Rates in Cuba are worse.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 23, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> What prevents the issuers of your private currency from looting your bank account? Would you like Wall Street to control the monopoly of violence instead of government?


What prevents them from doing it now?  How does the gold standard give banks "the monopoly on violence?"


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 23, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Wealthy tyrants use government to serve their interests at the expense of a 90% majority of society; why do you think that's a good idea?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But you want to give this government that caters to the rich power over everything?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 23, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> The people who sell their stocks to the company either hide the money or burn it for heat, eh?


*Are those highly productive people engaging in stock manipulation as they were before 1982?*

The Dangers of Buybacks: Mitigating Common Pitfalls

"Buybacks are a fairly new phenomenon and have been gaining in popularity relative to dividends recently. 

"All but banned in the US during the 1930s, buybacks were seen as a form of market manipulation. 

"Buybacks were largely illegal until 1982, when the SEC adopted Rule 10B-18 (the safe-harbor provision) under the Reagan administration to combat corporate raiders. 

"This change reintroduced buybacks in the US, leading to wider adoption around the world over the next 20 years."


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 23, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Are those highly productive people engaging in stock manipulation as they were before 1982?*
> 
> The Dangers of Buybacks: Mitigating Common Pitfalls
> 
> ...



*Are those highly productive people engaging in stock manipulation as they were before 1982?*

When I sell my stock, I'm not engaging in stock manipulation.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 23, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> But you claim that capitalism required slavery, moron. Now you're claim that capitalism required slavery to be abolished.


Capitalism required slavery during the time when animal muscle power was the primary source of agricultural production. In Brazil, slaves were worked to death in 7 years in order to make massa prosper. 




As the machine replaced animal horsepower. illiterate slaves became a social cost instead of a source of capitalist profit.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 23, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Capitalism required slavery during the time when animal muscle power was the primary source of agricultural production. In Brazil, slaves were worked to death in 7 years in order to make massa prosper.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So the USA needed slaves in 1861, but not in 1865?  You know your theory is false on its face, don't you?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 24, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> I don't care what color you are, commit crime, go to jail.
> 
> Tell your friends.


Tell yours.




"JPMorgan Chase is the largest bank in the United States. It also has the scandalous distinction of having admitted to five criminal felony counts brought by the U.S. Department of Justice since 2014 and a breathtaking series of additional charges from other regulators. (See its Rap Sheet here.)"

JPMorgan’s Crime Wave Continues, Calling into Question the Justice Department’s Lax Settlement with the Bank Last Year


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 24, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> What was the white default rate?
> What was the black default rate?


*What might explain any difference?*

"In response to the Great Depression, the Federal Housing Administration was created through the National Housing Act of 1934.

"The purpose of the FHA was to regulate interest rates and mortgage terms.

"While this new government agency created an opportunity for whites to become homeowners and begin accumulating wealth, *government-sanctioned racism kept blacks out of the housing market."

Staggering Loss of Black Wealth Due to Subprime Scandal Continues Unabated*


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 24, 2021)

dblack said:


> Because the USSR was a totalitarian regime. They, quite rightly, saw us an enemy.


Here's what they saw:




They saw America destroying Korea and Vietnam in the wake of WWII, and they had no doubts about American intentions toward Russia's vast resources.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 24, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> What the commies were demanding is not people with the same score paying higher rate. They wanted people with much lower FIFO scores to pay the same rate and put down the same downpayment..


As compensation for what act of governmental discrimination?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 24, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Because Russia sucks.


Compared to...


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 24, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Wah.......we resisted the spread of communism. Unfair. DURR.


By denying free elections and imposing military dictators.
Who got rich from that?


----------



## dblack (Dec 24, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Here's what they saw:
> 
> They saw America destroying Korea and Vietnam in the wake of WWII, and they had no doubts about American intentions toward Russia's vast resources.


You're trying to sell socialism, but you can't even bring yourself to denounce the USSR?. Helluva sales pitch. Comrade.

Thanks, but no. Thanks.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 24, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> As compensation for what act of governmental discrimination?


No one was proposing to compensate anyone for any  act of governmental discrimination.

Only the commies who claimed the existence of "red lining" were doing that.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 24, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Tell yours.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If any of those people committed felonies, put them in jail.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 24, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *What might explain any difference?*
> 
> "In response to the Great Depression, the Federal Housing Administration was created through the National Housing Act of 1934.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the link.
Do you have one that answers the questions?

What was the white default rate?
What was the black default rate?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 24, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Compared to...



Yes, as compared to...


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 24, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> By denying free elections and imposing military dictators.
> Who got rich from that?



Oh, because the commies allowed free elections and didn't impose military dictators. Thanks.

How does that North Korean grass taste this time of year? I hear it's yummy!

Thank goodness we stopped the North Korean commies, electricity is cool.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 24, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *The Maastricht and Lisbon treaties (along with the German constitution) deprive the EU of having such an institution*
> 
> The EU doesn't have a central bank?


*Sure it does.
Who does it lend to?*

EU Infrastructure Undermines Sovereignty | Michael Hudson

"The EU confederation has no ability to tax and spend; that remains local. 

"Its tax policy focuses on taxing consumers via the Value Added Tax (VAT). 

"More fatally, the eurozone has no ability – or at least, no willingness – to create money to fund deficit spending. 

*"The European Central bank only provides money to commercial banks, not for government budgets."*


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 24, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *which obliges governments to save bondholders from loss instead of writing down bad debt.*
> 
> Bondholders never have losses? Bad debt is never written down?


*Not often enough since bondholders control banks and governments:*

EU Infrastructure Undermines Sovereignty | Michael Hudson

"Eurozone rules – the Maastricht and Lisbon treaties – aimed at blocking governments from running budget deficits in a way that spend money into the economy to revive employment. 

*"The new aim  is only to rescue bondholders and banks from making bad loans and even fraudulent loans, bailing them out at public expense."*


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 24, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Sure it does.
> Who does it lend to?*
> 
> EU Infrastructure Undermines Sovereignty | Michael Hudson
> ...



Thanks for the link.
Where does it help prove the claim "an institution which obliges governments to save bondholders from loss instead of writing down bad debt."?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 24, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "The new aim is only to rescue bondholders and banks from making bad loans and even fraudulent loans, bailing them out at public expense."



The ECB does that? How?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 24, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *What happens when debts can't be repaid, when debt grows faster than the economy?*
> 
> Why would that make debts unpayable?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 24, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> _If the economy overall grows by x% per year, and returns on investments grow by more than x% per year, then it follows with mathematical necessity that a larger and larger fraction of total income goes to owners and correspondingly that a smaller and smaller fraction of total income goes to workers._
> 
> If only there were a way for workers to buy shares........


By going into debt?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 24, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> _"Put differently, owning things becomes more profitable over time, while doing things for pay becomes less and less profitable over time."_
> 
> Piketty is a hack.


"Nothing prevents a single individual from owning more than a million average people. But there’s no such thing as a taxi-driver, farmer or plumber that can get as much actual work done in a day as a million average taxi-drivers, farmers or plumbers."








See the problem yet?

What is the most important takeaway from Thomas Piketty's Capital in the 21st Century?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 24, 2021)

georgephillip said:


>



You don't have to convince me to save and invest, convince yourself.

Think about how you'd be less miserable if you have done the same.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 24, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> By going into debt?


 
I never used margin debt to buy my stocks.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 24, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "Nothing prevents a single individual from owning more than a million average people. But there’s no such thing as a taxi-driver, farmer or plumber that can get as much actual work done in a day as a million average taxi-drivers, farmers or plumbers."
> 
> 
> 
> ...



_"Nothing prevents a single individual from owning more than a million average people. But there’s no such thing as a taxi-driver, farmer or plumber that can get as much actual work done in a day as a million average taxi-drivers, farmers or plumbers."_

Modern economics makes more wealth possible.





Wages and salary? What's wrong with compensation?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 24, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> They didn't. That was just an excuse Stalin used to hold on to Easter Europe.
> 
> Apparently you expect us to believe that Stalin was some kind of reasonable person


You're pretty much the last person on this board I would ever associate with reason.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 24, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Modern economics makes more wealth possible.


Modern economics = Finance capitalism?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 24, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> ou're free to buy, or not buy, from any capitalist. Vote with your dollars.


But I'm not free to prevent rich capitalists from using their dollars to determine which candidates I'm allowed to vote for. Wealthy capitalists are able to influence politics to their ends because much of the politically relevant information that's too expensive for a majority of voters to acquire comes naturally to business in the course of daily operations.

Investment theory of party competition - Wikipedia


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 24, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Modern economics = Finance capitalism?



Sometimes. So what?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 24, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> But I'm not free to prevent rich capitalists from using their dollars to determine which candidates I'm allowed to vote for. Wealthy capitalists are able to influence politics to their ends because much of the politically relevant information that's too expensive for a majority of voters to acquire comes naturally to business in the course of daily operations.
> 
> Investment theory of party competition - Wikipedia



*But I'm not free to prevent rich capitalists from using their dollars to determine which candidates I'm allowed to vote for. *

Did those mean rich guys stop you from voting for Kamala? Or for Clinton? Or for Obama?
How many times did you vote for Bernie?

*Wealthy capitalists are able to influence politics to their ends because much of the politically relevant information that's too expensive for a majority of voters to acquire comes naturally to business in the course of daily operations.*

What information about Bernie was too expensive for you?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 24, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> ROFL. How would they not distort the market? They change the cost of the things you buy, obviously.


Taxes on goods and service are alleged to distort the economy because they enter into the price of things households and firms buy; they are costs to which there is no economic activity they directly correspond to. How do income taxes distort the economic system?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 24, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> How was invading Poland, Finland, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania and Besarbia "self defense?"


Because European nations had invaded Russia three times during the 20th century including one intervention the US participated in. Don't you think it would have been unreasonable for Stalin to disregard that history?


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 24, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Taxes on goods and service are alleged to distort the economy because they enter into the price of things households and firms buy; they are costs to which there is no economic activity they directly correspond to. How do income taxes distort the economic system?


They create a disincentive for working, for one thing.  All taxes distort the market.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 24, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Because European nations had invaded Russia three times during the 20th century including one intervention the US participated in. Don't you think it would have been unreasonable for Stalin to disregard that history?


Not before the USSR invaded Poland, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania and Finland, and no, not every country in Europe invaded the USSR, especially not the ones it invaded.  Yes, it was unreasonable.  Stalin was an imperialist tyrant.

Your sleazy excuses don't fool anyone.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 24, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> You're pretty much the last person on this board I would ever associate with reason.


ROFL!  Says the douchebag who defends communism and a mass murdering tyrant.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 24, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> But I'm not free to prevent rich capitalists from using their dollars to determine which candidates I'm allowed to vote for. Wealthy capitalists are able to influence politics to their ends because much of the politically relevant information that's too expensive for a majority of voters to acquire comes naturally to business in the course of daily operations.
> 
> Investment theory of party competition - Wikipedia


What information is that?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 24, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Easy solution: don't take the money.


It's not like taking the money was a decision arrived at through a democratic process. Third world elites took the money and left the debts for their poor to deal with. US elites demanded countries receiving the loans also paid for US grain exports with plantation crops, thereby creating a food dependency on the US instead of structuring its economy to feed its own population.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 24, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Third world elites took the money and left the debts for their poor to deal with.



That's terrible!!

Are there any third world countries that aren't corrupt shitholes?
I'm look for a new place to invest some cash. Which ones are safe?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 24, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> The World Bank is a socialist enterprise. I would abolish it tomorrow if I could.


Michael Hudson Discusses the IMF and World Bank: Partners In Backwardness | naked capitalism

"The purpose of a military conquest is to take control of foreign economies, to take control of their land and impose tribute. 

*"The genius of the World Bank was to recognize that it’s not necessary to occupy a country in order to impose tribute, or to take over its industry, agriculture and land. *

"Instead of bullets, it uses financial maneuvering. As long as other countries play an artificial economic game that U.S. diplomacy can control, finance is able to achieve today what used to require bombing and loss of life by soldiers..."

"It (World Bank) was set up basically by the United States in 1944, along with its sister institution, the International Monetary Fund (IMF). 

*"Their purpose was to create an international order like a funnel to make other countries economically dependent on the United States. *

"To make sure that no other country or group of countries – even all the rest of the world – could not dictate U.S. policy. American diplomats insisted on the ability to veto any action by the World Bank or IMF. 




"The aim of this veto power was to make sure that any policy was, in Donald Trump’s words, to put America first. '*We’ve got to win and they’ve got to lose.'*"


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 24, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> The New Deal impoverished this country for over a decade.


Can you supply any evidence in support of that unreasonable claim?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 24, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Post a couple of the loan agreements that support your claim.


*Why would I bother?*

Michael Hudson Discusses the IMF and World Bank: Partners In Backwardness | naked capitalism

"The World Bank was set up from the outset as a branch of the military, of the Defense Department. John J. McCloy (Assistant Secretary of War, 1941-45), was the first full-time president. 

"He later became Chairman of Chase Manhattan Bank (1953-60). 

"McNamara was Secretary of Defense (1961-68), Paul Wolfowitz was Deputy and Under Secretary of Defense (1989-2005), and Robert Zoellick was Deputy Secretary of State. 

*"So I think you can look at the World Bank as the soft shoe of American diplomacy."*


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 24, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Why would I bother?



No kidding. You never have proof for your silly claims.
Must be a commie thing.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 24, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Can you supply any evidence in support of that unreasonable claim?


How about the fact that Americans were poorer after FDR's reign than before?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 24, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Makes sense, gotta pay back their loans somehow.


Makes sense to those who believe any country can pay any amount of debt if it just impoverishes its labor enough. Such countries raise their interest rates high enough to bring on a depression (austerity), breaking up labor unions in the proce$$.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 24, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *When Harry Truman refused to allow free elections in 1945 in Korea, Italy, and Greece because communist patriots would have won*
> 
> Oh no!!


That's rich.
Democracy for capitalist states only?
Why are you afraid of competition?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 24, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> We resisted your commie a-hole buddies.
> How did that work out for South Korea, Italy and Greece?
> Why don't you compare their GDP to Russia's, Cuba's, Venezuela's and North Korea's


What surprises you about countries paying tribute to the ruling empire of the day? The IMF and World Bank backed economic elites in the countries they "helped", protecting the richest one percent and foreign investors from balance-of-payments problems. The IMF enables its wealthy clients to move their money out of the country without taking a foreign-exchange loss, leaving the vast majority of their populations to pay the austerity induced costs.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 24, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Or run away like a little twat


You would know.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 24, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Makes sense to those who believe any country can pay any amount of debt if it just impoverishes its labor enough. Such countries raise their interest rates high enough to bring on a depression (austerity), breaking up labor unions in the proce$$.



*Makes sense to those who believe any country can pay any amount of debt if it just impoverishes its labor enough.*

So sad.

*Such countries raise their interest rates high enough to bring on a depression (austerity), breaking up labor unions in the proce$$.*

The labor unions didn't save them?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 24, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> That's rich.
> Democracy for capitalist states only?
> Why are you afraid of competition?



*Democracy for capitalist states only?*

Commies are free to have democracy.....oh, wait. LOL!

*Why are you afraid of competition?*

Commies are competition? LOL!


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 24, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> You would know.



I see you frequently.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 24, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Makes sense to those who believe any country can pay any amount of debt if it just impoverishes its labor enough. Such countries raise their interest rates high enough to bring on a depression (austerity), breaking up labor unions in the proce$$.


What a giant load of horseshit.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 25, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Stalin had no choice? What complete horseshit.


*Stalin not only knew how many times western capitalists had invaded his homeland in the previous 133 years; he was also likely aware of capitalism's plans in 1945 to "finish the job"*

Operation Unthinkable - Wikipedia

*"Operation Unthinkable* was the name given to two related possible future war plans by the British Chiefs of Staff against the Soviet Union in 1945. 

"The plans were never approved or implemented. 

"The creation of the plans was ordered by British Prime Minister Winston Churchill in May 1945 and developed by the British Armed Forces' Joint Planning Staff in May 1945 at the end of World War II in Europe.[1]

"One plan assumed a surprise attack on the Soviet forces stationed in Germany to "impose the will of the Western Allies" on the Soviets. '*The will' was qualified as 'a square deal for Poland',[2] which probably meant enforcing the recently signed Yalta Agreement." *


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 25, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Are there any third world countries that are safe to lend to?
> Ones that aren't hopelessly corrupt?
> Can you post a list?







Ask your lord and master.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 25, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> My side won WWII. And then we kicked your ass in the Cold War.


Your capitalist side won WWII because Russian socialists destroyed your German competitors. Ever since you've regularly advanced property rights over human rights, and you're actually sufficiently deluded to believe you are the Good Guys. You're not. You are useless eaters whose economic system is killing this planet.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 25, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Is that supposed to show an alternate currency that people want to hold?


It shows the US dollar commands its global reserve currency role because the US military maim. murders, and displaces millions of innocent people on the opposite side of the planet from Wall Street to enforce its rule. How much do you make? Be specific.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 25, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> No they weren't, dumbass. North Korea invaded South Korea, and US Troops never set foot on North Vietnamese soil. North Vietnam, on the other hand, did invade South Vietnam.


North Korea attempted to liberate South Korea in 1950 AFTER the US military prevented free peninsula-wide elections in 1945. When the "invasion" began a majority of Koreans supported overthrowing the US installed military dictator in Seoul, and only thousands of UN troops (90% US) prevented Koreans from taking control of their entire country.

US bombing campaigns maimed, murdered, and displaced millions of Vietnamese. There never would have been a North Vietnam or a North Korea if US imperialists hadn't found it profitable to occupy both countries.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 25, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Stalin not only knew how many times western capitalists had invaded his homeland in the previous 133 years; he was also likely aware of capitalism's plans in 1945 to "finish the job"*
> 
> Operation Unthinkable - Wikipedia
> 
> ...


I already gave you the extensive list of countries the USSR invaded before the start of WW II.  Every country in Europe has been invaded numerous times, so this whine is totally bogus.  The USSR was a threat to all it's neighbors.  What was their excuse for invading Poland within a year of the end of their civil war?

Russo-Polish War | History, Facts, & Significance


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 25, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> North Korea attempted to liberate South Korea in 1950 AFTER the US military prevented free peninsula-wide elections in 1945. When the "invasion" began a majority of Koreans supported overthrowing the US installed military dictator in Seoul, and only thousands of UN troops (90% US) prevented Koreans from taking control of their entire country.
> 
> US bombing campaigns maimed, murdered, and displaced millions of Vietnamese. There never would have been a North Vietnam or a North Korea if US imperialists hadn't found it profitable to occupy both countries.



You mean it invaded South Korea.  Your post is a big fucking lie.  It's communist propaganda.

What happened at the end of the Vietnam war shows that people would rather die than live in a communist country.  That's what you support.

Since you're so concerned about puppet governments, why do you defend the USSR which set one up in North Korea?


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 25, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Your capitalist side won WWII because Russian socialists destroyed your German competitors. Ever since you've regularly advanced property rights over human rights, and you're actually sufficiently deluded to believe you are the Good Guys. You're not. You are useless eaters whose economic system is killing this planet.


Property rights are human rights, dumbfuck.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 25, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> The PRK were a hostile invasion force. Barring them from the country was entirely appropriate.


*Where do you  imagine the PRK came from before launching their "hostile invasion..."?*

People's Republic of Korea - Wikipedia

"The *People's Republic of Korea* (*PRK*)[a] was a short-lived provisional government that was organized at the time of the surrender of the Empire of Japan at the end of World War II. 

"It was proclaimed on 6 September 1945, as Korea was being divided into two occupation zones, with the Soviet Union occupying the north, and the United States occupying the south. Based on a network of people's committees,.."

"On 15 August 1945, the Japanese Empire was defeated by the Allies. 

"The Imperial Japanese authorities requested that a government be established to ensure the safety of their persons and property after the occupation ended. 

"Whilst the Soviet Union continued to fight the Japanese Empire in Chongjin, Endo Ryusaku [ko; ja], who served in the Japanese Government-General sought to secure the return of the Japanese. 

"He proposed to Song Jin-woo that he take over the security and administrative rights of Korea, but when this was rejected, he asked to meet Lyuh Woon-hyung in Seoul."





*"Lyuh Woon-hyung* or *Yo Un-hyung*[c] (May 25, 1886 – July 19, 1947) was a Korean politician who argued that Korean independence was essential to world peace..."

"He is rare among politicians in modern Korean history in that he is revered in both South and North Korea."


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 25, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Where do you  imagine the PRK came from before launching their "hostile invasion..."?*
> 
> People's Republic of Korea - Wikipedia
> 
> ...


It was a Soviet puppet government - just the thing you claim to hate.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 25, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Ask your lord and master.



You're the one whining about loans to third-world countries.
You don't know? LOL!


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 25, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Your capitalist side won WWII because Russian socialists destroyed your German competitors.



And then we kicked the ass of the USSR socialists.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 25, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> It shows the US dollar commands its global reserve currency role because the US military



We have the best economy, best military and the best currency? Yeah!!!


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 25, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> North Korea attempted to liberate South Korea in 1950 AFTER the US military prevented free peninsula-wide elections in 1945. When the "invasion" began a majority of Koreans supported overthrowing the US installed military dictator in Seoul, and only thousands of UN troops (90% US) prevented Koreans from taking control of their entire country.
> 
> US bombing campaigns maimed, murdered, and displaced millions of Vietnamese. There never would have been a North Vietnam or a North Korea if US imperialists hadn't found it profitable to occupy both countries.



*North Korea attempted to liberate South Korea in 1950 AFTER the US military prevented free peninsula-wide elections in 1945. *

Maybe they should liberate North Korea today?

*When the "invasion" began a majority of Koreans supported overthrowing the US installed military dictator in Seoul, *

LOL!


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 25, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "It was proclaimed on 6 September 1945, as Korea was being divided into two occupation zones, with the Soviet Union occupying the north



The Soviet Union was the worst!!!!
Why did they occupy poor North Korea?
Is that why North Korea is still a shithole, 216th in GDP per capita, while South Korea
has the 37th highest GDP per capita? I mean, less than $2000 per capita GDP is a great achievement
for communism, and still no free elections. South Korea has free elections and over $40,000 per capita GDP. Clear proof that capitalism is bad.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 25, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> In other words, you object to the fact that the voters want nothing to do with your subversive schemes.


Socialists or Libertarians face virtually impossible odds in gaining voter support since the two major parties control ballot access among other advantages. Anyone who sees a difference between Republican or Democrat when it comes to fundamental values is blind.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 25, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Maybe they should liberate North Korea today?


Why don't you and Trump take care of that?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 25, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Why don't you and Trump take care of that?



Why don't you?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 25, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Apparently you have a problem democracy.


Not as much as you




Opinion | Is Donald Trump a Threat to Democracy? (Published 2016)


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 25, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Why don't you?


I don't profit from killing children.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 25, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> By "banned" you mean they chose not to have it.


*By "banned" I mean the US military refused to allow Koreans to decide their own fate after WWII:*

People's Republic of Korea - Wikipedia

"After the American arrival in September 1945, the United States Army Military Government in Korea controlled the peninsula south of the 38th parallel. 

"The military governor Lieutenant-General John R. Hodge refused to recognize the PRK and its People's Committees, and outlawed it on 12 December.[6]: p.57  He later stated, 'one of our missions was to break down this Communist government'"


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 25, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> I don't profit from killing children.



No profit in ending communist oppression?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 25, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *By "banned" I mean the US military refused to allow Koreans to decide their own fate after WWII:*
> 
> People's Republic of Korea - Wikipedia
> 
> ...



*By "banned" I mean the US military refused to allow Koreans to decide their own fate after WWII:*

Who is stopping the Koreans from deciding their own fate today?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 25, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Define "superior currency," and what does our military have to do with anything?


*The US military's 800 bases around the world are there to support the US dollar as the global reserve currency; your lifestyle and mine are underwritten by destroying countries like Iraq and Afghanistan on the opposite side of planet.*

Dollar Recycling | Michael Hudson

" Ending the gold-exchange standard in 1971 created a situation in which the excess U.S. dollars thrown off by the U.S. payments deficit end up in foreign central banks.

"For these central banks, the inflow of surplus dollars poses the problem of what do we do with them. 

"Central banks don’t buy stocks and bonds, or control of corporations, because that is risky and also does not directly help their own economy. 

"So central banks buy US Treasury bonds and bills – IOUs of the U.S. Government. 

*"For the United States, the money that is spent on running a balance-of-payments deficit on military account and on American investors buying Chinese stocks and Chinese companies, dollars are recycled back to the United States to buy US Treasury bonds."*


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 25, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> No profit in ending communist oppression?


Worry about ending capitalist oppression.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 25, 2021)

Mac-7 said:


> The Washington Post Editorial Board are a bunch of anti American turncoats
> 
> I guess they never recovered from eating magic mushrooms and running naked at Woodstock


How many civilians has the US military killed since 1945?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 25, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Worry about ending capitalist oppression.



That's you, always worrying about the wrong things.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 25, 2021)

Samofvt said:


> think the OP here is calling the World Bank "capitalist" just because it deals with money (capital): not all monetary systems are capitalism, and capitalism is not the basis of all monetary systems.


*Imho, the World Bank serves the same function today as military occupation provided during past times:*
Michael Hudson Discusses the IMF and World Bank: Partners In Backwardness | naked capitalism
"The purpose of a military conquest is to take control of foreign economies, to take control of their land and impose tribute. 

"The genius of the World Bank was to recognize that it’s not necessary to occupy a country in order to impose tribute, or to take over its industry, agriculture and land. Instead of bullets, it uses financial maneuvering. 

"As long as other countries play an artificial economic game that U.S. diplomacy can control, finance is able to achieve today what used to require bombing and loss of life by soldiers."


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 25, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "As long as other countries play an artificial economic game that U.S. diplomacy can control, finance is able to achieve today what used to require bombing and loss of life by soldiers."



Nobody makes you play.

Do your own thing.

It works for Iran, North Korea and Venezuela.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 25, 2021)

Mac-7 said:


> The UN held elections in 1948 that the communists refused to participate in
> 
> Any proposed election in 1945 would have been impossible amd was never seriously considered by the UN


*Do you know the correct answer to this question?*

"4. At the Yalta Conference in February 1945, U.S. President Roosevelt and Soviet leader Joseph Stalin discussed the postwar future of Korea. Stalin advocated independence as soon as possible. Roosevelt



> a. agreed to immediate independence
> *b. advocated a trusteeship of 20-30 years, citing the positive example of U.S. rule in the Philippines*
> c. suggested Korea remain a part of the Japanese Empire, to be occupied by Allied forces"



*There were no Koreans present or consulted at Yalta.
Koreans were fully capable of deciding their own popular sovereignty in 1945 without adding to the White Man's Burden.*

DECEMBER 31, 2002
A Pop Quiz on Korea​BY GARY LEUPP


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 25, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Too often.


For example?


----------



## Colin norris (Dec 25, 2021)

IM2 said:


> America has never been a democracy. And my ancestors were capital.


If not a Democracy, what is it?They've had elections since day one. That's democracy.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 25, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> For example?



AOC, Bernie, other socialist idiots......


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 25, 2021)

San Souci said:


> All people have access. Just walk or drive to the polling place. Or REQUEST an absentee Ballot with proper ID. Mail out ballots should be illegal. Ballot harvesting IS illegal.


Some people wait in lines that are hours long to cast a ballot only to find Republicans have scrubbed their names from the voting rolls.




The very real threat of voter suppression - The Boston Globe


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 25, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Now they're 37th in the world for real GDP per capita.
> North Korea is 216th.


How did SK achieve that degree of economic success?
Here's one reason:

14. Park Chung-hee, who had served in the Japanese army during the Second World War, participated in a coup in 1961, and then became president in 1963. His rule, to 1979, was characterized by



> a. economic growth and political liberalization
> b. a “sunshine policy” towards North Korea
> *c. economic growth, martial law, censorship, political repression, and torture of political prisoners*



*SK had more efficient dictators and the US dollars working in its favor.*

DECEMBER 31, 2002
A Pop Quiz on Korea​BY GARY LEUPP


----------



## IM2 (Dec 25, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> If not a Democracy, what is it?They've had elections since day one. That's democracy.


I don't call what we have endured as blacks democratic. And in the very beginning poor whites and women could not vote.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 25, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How did SK achieve that degree of economic success?
> Here's one reason:
> 
> 14. Park Chung-hee, who had served in the Japanese army during the Second World War, participated in a coup in 1961, and then became president in 1963. His rule, to 1979, was characterized by
> ...



*How did SK achieve that degree of economic success?*

We saved them from communism.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 25, 2021)

Mac-7 said:


> The soviets dominated north korea is in the days and serveral years after liberation from japan
> 
> Do you think the north koreans are lucky to be communists instead of being liberated by America?


Neither North nor South Koreans required occupation by the US or USSR anymore than France, or Belgium, or Greece, or the UK did. Koreans were divided politically in 1945 but relatively unified in their desire to be an independent country.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 25, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Neither North nor South Koreans required occupation by the US or USSR anymore than France, or Belgium, or Greece, or the UK did. Koreans were divided politically in 1945 but relatively unified in their desire to be an independent country.



*Neither North nor South Koreans required occupation by the US or USSR anymore than France, or Belgium, or Greece, or the UK did. *

The south is now free, while the north is still enslaved by your commie heroes.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 25, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *The US military's 800 bases around the world are there to support the US dollar as the global reserve currency; your lifestyle and mine are underwritten by destroying countries like Iraq and Afghanistan on the opposite side of planet.*
> 
> Dollar Recycling | Michael Hudson
> 
> ...


That isn't why they are there.  However, I will concede that the vas majority of them are unnecessary.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 25, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Neither North nor South Koreans required occupation by the US or USSR anymore than France, or Belgium, or Greece, or the UK did. Koreans were divided politically in 1945 but relatively unified in their desire to be an independent country.


Once the USSR occupied North Korea, we were required to occupy South Korea.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 25, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *By "banned" I mean the US military refused to allow Koreans to decide their own fate after WWII:*


So did the USSR, douchebag.



georgephillip said:


> People's Republic of Korea - Wikipedia
> 
> "After the American arrival in September 1945, the United States Army Military Government in Korea controlled the peninsula south of the 38th parallel.
> 
> "The military governor Lieutenant-General John R. Hodge refused to recognize the PRK and its People's Committees, and outlawed it on 12 December.[6]: p.57  He later stated, 'one of our missions was to break down this Communist government'"



I don't have a problem with that.  Stalin installed his puppet in North Korea.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 25, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Do you know the correct answer to this question?*
> 
> "4. At the Yalta Conference in February 1945, U.S. President Roosevelt and Soviet leader Joseph Stalin discussed the postwar future of Korea. Stalin advocated independence as soon as possible. Roosevelt
> 
> ...


Of course he favored independence.  Stalin was an expert at subverting democracies, and having one so close to one of his puppet states would make it easy.

I have to hand it do you, it takes real courage to defend Stalin.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 25, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Neither North nor South Koreans required occupation by the US or USSR anymore than France, or Belgium, or Greece, or the UK did. Koreans were divided politically in 1945 but relatively unified in their desire to be an independent country.


How about Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Romania, Poland, East Germany, Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania?


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 25, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> If not a Democracy, what is it?They've had elections since day one. That's democracy.


This is the turd who defends the communist puppet state in North Korea.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 25, 2021)

IM2 said:


> I don't call what we have endured as blacks democratic. And in the very beginning poor whites and women could not vote.


I don't call this "democratic:"


----------



## Mac-7 (Dec 25, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How many civilians has the US military killed since 1945?


Not as many as our enemies the communists and jihadies have killed


----------



## Mac-7 (Dec 25, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Do you know the correct answer to this question?*
> 
> "4. At the Yalta Conference in February 1945, U.S. President Roosevelt and Soviet leader Joseph Stalin discussed the postwar future of Korea. Stalin advocated independence as soon as possible. Roosevelt
> 
> ...


Roosevelt and Churchill did not think so no matter what was agreed to at Yalta

They were deciding the fate of millions of koreans and japanese and condemning them to communism was not an option


----------



## Mac-7 (Dec 25, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Neither North nor South Koreans required occupation by the US or USSR anymore than France, or Belgium, or Greece, or the UK did. Koreans were divided politically in 1945 but relatively unified in their desire to be an independent country.


In 1945 and into ‘46 korea was still occupied  by the Japanese army and koreans were not yet in a position to choose

so the russians and Americans chose for them


----------



## San Souci (Dec 26, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Some people wait in lines that are hours long to cast a ballot only to find Republicans have scrubbed their names from the voting rolls.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Buzz off ,Troll. The only ones cheating are the fuckin' Dems. They want COVID rules forever. Can't win without 'em. Why? Because the Dem party has sold out to pig bitches like the Jihad Squad.


----------



## Colin norris (Dec 26, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> This is the turd who defends the communist puppet state in North Korea.



You show me where I have ever defended communism, big mouth. 
You are an ignorant liar. 
To you, democrats are all communists. That's how fucking ignorant you are.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 26, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Putin should get the Ceausescu treatment. And Maduro.


And Trump.




"'What is going to put him in jail eventually... destroy anything he's ever built, and his children, is a 30 year dishonest criminal enterprise'"

'30-year criminal enterprise:' Investigations look at Trump’s life from all angles


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 26, 2021)

kaz said:


> Um ... a decreased household income once makes Americans poor. Wow, that's stupid ... even for you ...


Household purchasing power for 90% of Americans has declined over the last forty years; where have you been?




*"In fact, despite some ups and downs over the past several decades, today’s real average wage (that is, the wage after accounting for inflation) has about the same purchasing power it did 40 years ago. 

"And what wage gains there have been have mostly flowed to the highest-paid tier of workers."*

For most Americans, real wages have barely budged for decades


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 26, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> And Trump.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


All that shows is how deranged Democrats and how afraid they are of Trump..


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 26, 2021)

kaz said:


> So you SERIOUSLY believe that government controlling the means of production would ... ahem .... not be "deceitful." Wow, you're a fool


Not foolish enough to believe private bankers planning the economy works for anyone except the richest one percent and other useless eaters, like you.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 26, 2021)

Mac-7 said:


> The borrowers lied (sometimes coached by unscrupulous lenders) about their income
> 
> Then the big banks bundled the bad loans into investment scams and sold them to anyone gullible enough to buy them


*You should never forget the role corrupt appraisers played in this scam.
Property values were inflated in order to continue doing business with mortgage makers*.

Bill Black: Mortgage Appraisal Fraud is Baaack...Because Bank Execs Profit From It | naked capitalism

"The Financial Crisis Inquiry Commission (FCIC) report described one of three epidemics of accounting control fraud that drove the financial crisis in these terms.




> “Some real estate appraisers had also been expressing concerns for years. From 2000 to 2007, a coalition of appraisal organizations circulated and ultimately delivered to Washington officials a public petition; signed by 11,000 appraisers and including the name and address of each, it charged that lenders were pressuring appraisers to place artificially high prices on properties. *According to the petition, lenders were ‘blacklisting honest appraisers’ and instead assigning business only to appraisers who would hit the desired price targets” [F*CIC 2011: 18]."


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 26, 2021)

Mac-7 said:


> Lots of blame to go around, but the original sin was government


*Government never coerced private bankers to engage in control accounting fraud.

In fact, some in government were warning about what was coming long before Lehman Brothers became extinct:*

The Best Way to Rob a Bank is To Own One - Bill Black Part 4

"In September 2004, Chris Swecker, not a random person, the senior FBI person in charge of dealing with mortgage fraud. 

"Think of this for language. Used the phrase that there was a developing 'epidemic' of mortgage fraud and predicted explicitly that it would cause a financial 'crisis' if it was not prevented."


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 26, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> You = poor and miserable, comrade.


Rich = corrupt and diseased.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 26, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Not foolish enough to believe private bankers planning the economy works for anyone except the richest one percent and other useless eaters, like you.


Private bankers can't plan the economy, moron.  They don't have control over the entire economy.  They only have control over their own bank.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 26, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Rich = corrupt and diseased.


government = corrupt and diseased.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 26, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Yup, they didn't verify income or assets.
> Who is the liar in any of these loans?


*Those engaged in predatory lending, Loser.*

The Best Way to Rob a Bank is To Own One - Bill Black Part 4

"Now, there’s a case in the early 2000s in Baltimore where Wells Fargo targets the African-American community in Baltimore. 

"If you want to expand your market, this is a market of poor, working-class, and even unemployed black Baltimore is not within the web of your financialization, and Wells Fargo explicitly targets black working families and poor families in Baltimore so explicitly that when this shows up in court *because they’re approving loans to people that in no way could ever repay the loan. *


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 26, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Government never coerced private bankers to engage in control accounting fraud.
> 
> In fact, some in government were warning about what was coming long before Lehman Brothers became extinct:*



The fact that some bankers commit crime doesn't make them all guilty of that crime, just as the fact that some Dim politicians are child molesters doesn't mean they are all child molesters.



georgephillip said:


> The Best Way to Rob a Bank is To Own One - Bill Black Part 4
> 
> "In September 2004, Chris Swecker, not a random person, the senior FBI person in charge of dealing with mortgage fraud.
> 
> "Think of this for language. Used the phrase that there was a developing 'epidemic' of mortgage fraud and predicted explicitly that it would cause a financial 'crisis' if it was not prevented."



The best way to loot the taxpayers is to get elected to Congress.  

The federal government ordered banks to commit what you call "mortgage fraud."


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 26, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *"The definition of liar’s loan is that the lender does not verify the borrower’s income (and more extreme liar’s loans do not verify the borrower’s job or assets).*
> 
> Yup, they didn't verify income or assets.
> Who is the liar in any of these loans?


How does that harm the borrower?  When they were checking, frauds like you complained about it.  You called that "red lining."


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 26, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> because they’re approving loans to people that in no way could ever repay the loan.



I always make more money when debtors don't repay me.....


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 26, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> How does that harm the borrower?  When they were checking, frauds like you complained about it.  You called that "red lining."



Forget it, he's rolling.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 26, 2021)

jc456 said:


> His salary he took zero. Are you saying he was supposed to sell all of his properties? Hahaha dude you’re really a full Un hearted asshole


The lefties knew this request was absurd.  They made it purely for propaganda purposes.  It just shows how thoroughly corrupt they are.  Meanwhile, they don't have a word of complaint about Nazi Pissosi's insider trading.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 26, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> It's your commie shithole....all the free healthcare you can stand.


How's Cuba's infant mortality compare with Chicago?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 26, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> I keep telling you, moron, that the only people that got screwed by the "liar loans" were the banks go granted them. They did it so the regulators would approve their mergers.


You can't wrap that infantile mind around the difference between a "bank" and a 'banker", can you, Aristotle?


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 26, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Household purchasing power for 90% of Americans has declined over the last forty years; where have you been?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We can thanks the Dims for opening the floodgates to illegal foreign labor for that.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 26, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How's Cuba's infant mortality compare with Chicago?


So you believe what Cuba says about its infant mortality rate?

How fucking gullible can a person be?


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 26, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> You can't wrap that infantile mind around the difference between a "bank" and a 'banker", can you, Aristotle?


What difference would it make, douchebag?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 26, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How's Cuba's infant mortality compare with Chicago?



Cuba's is much worse.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 26, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> So you believe what Cuba says about its infant mortality rate?
> 
> How fucking gullible can a person be?



George _is_ a commie, so pretty fucking gullible.


----------



## jc456 (Dec 26, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> The lefties knew this request was absurd.  They made it purely for propaganda purposes.  It just shows how thoroughly corrupt they are.  Meanwhile, they don't have a word of complaint about Nazi Pissosi's insider trading.


Actually, they lie and cheat cause they are as dishonest as criminals


----------



## Mac-7 (Dec 26, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *You should never forget the role corrupt appraisers played in this scam.
> Property values were inflated in order to continue doing business with mortgage makers*.
> 
> Bill Black: Mortgage Appraisal Fraud is Baaack...Because Bank Execs Profit From It | naked capitalism
> ...


Sure

appraiser too

it was just a bog mess created ny do-gooders in government


----------



## Mac-7 (Dec 26, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Government never coerced private bankers to engage in control accounting fraud.


Government pushed banks to make bad loansp


----------



## Samofvt (Dec 27, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Imho, the World Bank serves the same function today as military occupation provided during past times:*
> Michael Hudson Discusses the IMF and World Bank: Partners In Backwardness | naked capitalism
> "The purpose of a military conquest is to take control of foreign economies, to take control of their land and impose tribute.
> 
> ...


I will not refute your claims.  I will re-iterate that the world bank DOES NOT represent true capitalist intentions.  Big government does have a purpose, there is no doubt.  This is not it.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 27, 2021)

Mac-7 said:


> Sure
> 
> appraiser too
> 
> it was just a bog mess created ny do-gooders in government


Government do-gooders working at the behest of private bankers to deregulate the financial economy?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 27, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> More like because they murdered anyone who expressed support for the capitalist candidate. That's how communists conduct election campaigns


Capitalists never assassinate their political rivals, do they, Turd?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 27, 2021)

Samofvt said:


> will not refute your claims. I will re-iterate that the world bank DOES NOT represent true capitalist intentions. Big government does have a purpose, there is no doubt. This is not it.


How are you defining true capitalist intentions?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 27, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> More like because they murdered anyone who expressed support for the capitalist candidate. That's how communists conduct election campaigns.


Korean communists were more likely to fight against Japanese occupation of their homeland. Rich Korean capitalists collaborated with the occupation. Which side would have won free elections in 1945 AFTER Japan surrendered her colonies?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 27, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> es, before Reagan.


Which Republican congress repealed all of FDR's New Deal policies before 1980?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 27, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Feel free to give me all your money, and then see how happy you are.







How much has he scammed you for?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 27, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Then everyone learned what communists were all about.


How many civilians have communists maimed, murdered, and displaced on the opposite side of the globe from their homeland since 1945?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 27, 2021)

jc456 said:


> His salary he took zero. Are you saying he was supposed to sell all of his properties? Hahaha dude you’re really a full Un hearted asshole


Are you saying Trump is not a lifelong grifter?
How could anyone be that stupid?


----------



## Mac-7 (Dec 27, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Government do-gooders working at the behest of private bankers to deregulate the financial economy?


You need to get your story straight

when jesse jackson and clinton/reno were running things they said it was systemic racism by white bankers who REFUSED to loan money to innocent black people in the hood

now its evil white bankers who wanted to ensnare poor black folks with loans they couldnt pay back

Ha!


----------



## jc456 (Dec 27, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Are you saying Trump is not a lifelong grifter?
> How could anyone be that stupid?


You didn't agree that trump didn't take a salary.  Why?  you deflected because your faculties are stained.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 27, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Not foolish enough to believe private bankers planning the economy works for anyone except the richest one percent and other useless eaters, like you.


Private bankers don't "plan" the economy, moron.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 27, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> You can't wrap that infantile mind around the difference between a "bank" and a 'banker", can you, Aristotle?


How does it matter for your argument?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 27, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Korean communists were more likely to fight against Japanese occupation of their homeland. Rich Korean capitalists collaborated with the occupation.



Link?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 27, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> How many innocent North Koreans are still dying because of communism?
> At least, while they're starving, they can take comfort in the fact that there are no stock buybacks.


Koreans are dying today because capitalists were too timid to allow free elections in 1945.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 27, 2021)

dblack said:


> How many vague, empty questions have you asked in this fucking thread?


Not enough obviously.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 27, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Koreans are dying today because capitalists were too timid to allow free elections in 1945.



North Koreans are dying today because commies never allow free elections


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 27, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Disappointed that Stalin didn't also take a bullet in his bunker.


Along with his all his fascist friends


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 27, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Along with his all his fascist friends



Yup.
Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini and Tojo all should have taken a bullet.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 27, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Commies killing Africans, so imperialist deaths are pretty much zero.


African capitalists dying for white supremacy are pretty much a major improvement over MAGA.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 27, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> o what's your point, that socialism is incompetant?


*You asked for examples of the social costs of Chernobyl, and I responded:*

New report examines financial costs of the Chernobyl nuclear power plant disaster - USC Institute on Inequalities in Global Health

"'The 1986 Chernobyl catastrophe that exposed some 10 million people to nuclear radiation in the surrounding countries has estimated costs of roughly $700 billion over the past 30 years, according to our extensive review of the literature,' said Jonathan Samet, Distinguished Professor and Flora L. Thornton Chair of the preventive medicine department at the Keck School of Medicine of USC."


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 27, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> So you would be4 OK with killing millions of American "capitalists/imperialists?"


If they're looting resources in a foreign country. why not?
What would you do, carry their MAGA hats?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 27, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> African capitalists dying for white supremacy are pretty much a major improvement over MAGA.



African capitalists? If they had those, Africa wouldn't be such a shithole.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 27, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> The term, "marxist economist" is an oxymoron.


How would you know?
Marx’s Theory of Capitalist Development | Economics




https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/bfm:978-1-349-19707-1/1.pdf


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 27, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> They are not living in poverty according to any objective definition of the term "poverty."


Why don't you provide that definition?




Editorial: A court decision letting homeless people keep all their belongings helps no one


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 27, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How would you know?
> Marx’s Theory of Capitalist Development | Economics
> 
> 
> ...


I just proved that the labor theory of value is horseshit.  

Drawing some squiggles on a chart doesn't make you an economist.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 27, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Why don't you provide that definition?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Poverty, as defined throughout most of human history - not being able to meet your daily quotient of calories.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 27, 2021)

jc456 said:


> they are? where?


Homeless Population by State 2021


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 27, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> African capitalists dying for white supremacy are pretty much a major improvement over MAGA.


You have just won the "Oxymoron of the Month" award for your entry "African Capitalists."

Congratlations!


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 27, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> If they're looting resources in a foreign country. why not?
> What would you do, carry their MAGA hats?


What form would this looting take, buy stuff they are selling?

You just endorsed the mass murder of American, douchebag.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 27, 2021)

jc456 said:


> where is that?


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 27, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *You asked for examples of the social costs of Chernobyl, and I responded:*
> 
> New report examines financial costs of the Chernobyl nuclear power plant disaster - USC Institute on Inequalities in Global Health
> 
> "'The 1986 Chernobyl catastrophe that exposed some 10 million people to nuclear radiation in the surrounding countries has estimated costs of roughly $700 billion over the past 30 years, according to our extensive review of the literature,' said Jonathan Samet, Distinguished Professor and Flora L. Thornton Chair of the preventive medicine department at the Keck School of Medicine of USC."


But you claim socialism is the way to reduce the social costs of industry.

Are you going to claim, once again, that the USSR isn't socialist?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 27, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> How do they calculate it under socialism?


"The labor theory of value provides both a moral and a conceptual foundation for an equitable and efficient socialism. 

"Given modern information technology, a system of planning can work. 

"Markets in consumer goods are required, but not markets for the means of production. 

"We advocate a system of payment in labor-tokens, and argue for its superiority over the wages system in terms of both equity and economic efficiency."

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/257982894_Value_markets_and_socialism


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 27, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "The labor theory of value provides both a moral and a conceptual foundation for an equitable and efficient socialism.
> 
> "Given modern information technology, a system of planning can work.
> 
> ...



You didn't explain how they calculate it.  You merely spewed your dogma.  

Your claims are all false.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 27, 2021)

jc456 said:


> still waiting on that successful socialist country. where is it?


Still waiting for that definition of "successful".


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 27, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Still waiting for that definition of "successful".


Provides a high standard of living in terms of material wealth.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 27, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> So? Do you really believe government can/should fix the birth lottery?


The white-supremacist, patriarchal government that created the legal institutions and norms that produced the "winners" in the birth lottery have a responsibility to correct their previous errors. Throwing acid in a woman's face is an act of terror only conservatives would suggest.


----------



## GHook20 (Dec 27, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf
> 
> "Capitalism and democracy follow different logics: unequally distributed property rights on the one hand, equal civic and political rights on the other; profit oriented trade within capitalism in contrast to the search for the common good within democracy; debate, compromise and majority decision-making within democratic politics versus hierarchical decision-making by managers and capital owners.
> 
> ...


Please tell us again what you did for a living until retirement?

I will quote you: “various minimum wage jobs…”


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 27, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> True, and I couldn't be happier about it. The people who produced the wealth have demonstrated competence at managing producing enterprise


The people who produce the wealth in a capitalist system have no say about what to produce, where to produce it, or how to distribute any surplus. A small minority of society who "own" the means of production make those crucial decisions.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 27, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> What you call "Finance capitalism," which is really crony capitalism. It's not capitalism at all.


*Wrong again.
Don't you ever tire of reproving your ignorance?*




*"Characteristics of today’s rentier capitalism*

"The drive for capital gains in real estate and the stock market.

"Whereas the old industrial capitalism sought profits, the new finance capitalism seeks capital gains mainly in the form of higher land prices and prices for other rent-yielding assets. 

"Partly this is an attempt to sidestep income taxation"

Financial Capitalism v. Industrial Capitalism | Michael Hudson


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 27, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Wrong again.
> Don't you ever tire of reproving your ignorance?*
> 
> 
> ...



Carroll Quigley? Sounds like a loon.
Another marxist economist?


----------



## dblack (Dec 27, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> The people who produce the wealth in a capitalist system have no say about what to produce, where to produce it, or how to distribute any surplus.


Bullshit. They have total say. Everyone in a free market has the right to say "no", to refuse to go along with anything they don't agree with.


----------



## dblack (Dec 27, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> A small minority of society who "own" the means of production make those crucial decisions.


Yes. That's what ownership means. It's the right, and the responsibility, to allocate resources. If they do it well, they are assigned more wealth to control, if they do it badly, if they squander resources instead of using them productively, they'll lose their wealth and someone else will have a turn. Command economies (socialism) have no such moderating incentive structure.


----------



## jc456 (Dec 27, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Homeless Population by State 2021


Homeless is poor? Haha haha


----------



## jc456 (Dec 27, 2021)

georgephillip said:


>


So you don’t want Americans great! Got it! Traitor


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 28, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Capitalism has only been around for 250-300 years, at most.


Closer to five hundred and it was born of piracy.

In 1603 three ships owned by the Dutch East India Company  captured a Portuguese merchant ship off the coast of Singapore. 

Among its treasures was 70 tons of Chinese gold which sold at auction for the equivalent of 130 million dollars. The richness of the prize sparked all sorts of private  litigation. 

The Dutch raiders were not part of a royal navy, nor were they privateers carrying a "letter of marque" 

They were employees of the world's first major corporation, and their windfall profits showed the strength of the new capitalist approach to exploration and empire.




Jacob van Heemskerck - Wikipedia


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 28, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Closer to five hundred and it was born of piracy.


How do you figure 500?  Do you believe capitalism existed in the time of Columbus?  And it was not born of piracy.  Why do you keep making these assinigned and obviously wrong statements?



georgephillip said:


> In 1603 three ships owned by the Dutch East India Company  captured a Portuguese merchant ship off the coast of Singapore.
> 
> Among its treasures was 70 tons of Chinese gold which sold at auction for the equivalent of 130 million dollars. The richness of the prize sparked all sorts of private  litigation.
> 
> ...



The Dutch East India Company was not a corporation in the modern sense.  For one thing, the Dutch government granted it a monopoly on all trade in a certain geographic area.  For another, it had its own laws and even its own army and navy.  That ain't capitalism, moron.   The economic model is much closer to Feudalism than anything else.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 28, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Capitalism has killed almost no one. When you consider all the people capitalism has saved, the ledger decidedly favors capitalism . Famine used to be regular occurrence in the world. Millions of people died. Capitalism put an end to it. Capitalism also put an end to many infections diseases that killed millions.


*Capitalism has killed millions over the past five hundred years, and it continues killing, maiming, and displacing millions more today for the greater glory of private profit.*




"The Middle Passage was notorious for its brutality and for the overcrowded, unsanitary conditions on the ships. 

"The trip took a few weeks to several months. 

"The captives were packed tightly into tiers below decks and were typically chained together. 

"The almost continuous dangers faced by the captives included epidemic diseases, attack by pirates, and physical, sexual, and psychological abuse at the hands of their captors. 

*"Historians estimate that between 15 and 25 percent of the enslaved Africans bound for the Americas died aboard slave ships.*


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 28, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Capitalism has killed millions over the past five hundred years, and it continues killing, maiming, and displacing millions more today for the greater glory of private profit.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



_The first stage of the triangular trade started in Europe. A typical trade route began in Liverpool, England. A ship would leave Liverpool with a cargo of manufactured goods such as textiles, metals, firearms, linen, and alcoholic beverages. The ship would sail to the west coast of Africa. People from the interior of Africa were often captured and taken to the coast bordering the Gulf of Guinea. This area was called the Slave Coast. There the goods from the European ship would be traded for Africans who were enslaved._

West Africans were selling slaves to Europeans? That's awful!


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 28, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> How do you figure 500?  Do you believe capitalism existed in the time of Columbus?  And it was not born of piracy.  Why do you keep making these assigning and obviously wrong statements?
> 
> 
> 
> The Dutch East India Company was not a corporation in the modern sense.  For one thing, the Dutch government granted it a monopoly on all trade in a certain geographic area.  For another, it had its own laws and even its own army and navy.  The economic model is much closer to Feudalism than anything else.  That ain't capitalism, moron.





georgephillip said:


> *Capitalism has killed millions over the past five hundred years, and it continues killing, maiming, and displacing millions more today for the greater glory of private profit.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That wasn't capitalism, moron.  Economists generally describe the economic system in place in the 17th and 18th century as mercantilism.  it was tightly controlled by the monarch with the intention of producing a positive balance of trade and revenues for the Crown.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 28, 2021)

jc456 said:


> again, that quack thinks socialism worked somewhere. You and I can't solve insanity such as his.


You're too MAGA to comprehend what you read.

Bolivia’s Remarkable Socialist Success Story


----------



## jc456 (Dec 28, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> You're too MAGA to comprehend what you read.
> 
> Bolivia’s Remarkable Socialist Success Story


Why do the people want to come here?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 28, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *he five hundred year history of capitalism is filled with millions of murdered human beings sacrificed on the altar of profit.*
> 
> Right, anyone who dies of hunger or from dirty water was killed by capitalism. DURR.


Anyone killed in the two great capitalist wars of the 20th century died for private profit. Any Irish or Indians who starved to death under the capitalist rule of the British Empire died for private profit. Capitalism is a disease whose time has passed.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 28, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Anyone killed in the two great capitalist wars of the 20th century died for private profit. Any Irish or Indians who starved to death under the capitalist rule of the British Empire died for private profit. Capitalism is a disease whose time has passed.



Right, anyone who dies of hunger or from dirty water was killed by capitalism. DURR.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 28, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> You're too MAGA to comprehend what you read.
> 
> Bolivia’s Remarkable Socialist Success Story











						List of countries by GDP (PPP) per capita - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




Bolivia - Rank = 150,  8832 USD


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 28, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Anyone killed in the two great capitalist wars of the 20th century died for private profit. Any Irish or Indians who starved to death under the capitalist rule of the British Empire died for private profit. Capitalism is a disease whose time has passed.


You're forgetting that the USSR invaded Poland along with NAZI Germany, both of which claimed to despise the profit motive.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 28, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Right, anyone who dies of hunger or from dirty water was killed by capitalism. DURR.


Strange how none of them die in capitalist countries.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 28, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> List of countries by GDP (PPP) per capita - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So they make more than George ever did.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 29, 2021)

dblack said:


> I don't what the fuck "monopoly capitalism" is supposed to mean. But, in a free market, value isn't "calculated". Value is subjective. Depends entirely on who's evaluating.


*Monopolies set prices with no input from "free" markets required, and there's nothing subjective about that.*

*Achieving monopoly status is what every capitalist aspires to.

It's one more in a long list of inherent capitalist contradictions.*




"A monopoly can be recognized by certain characteristics that set it aside from the other market structures:


*Profit maximizer:* a monopoly maximizes profits. Due to the lack of competition a firm can charge a set price above what would be charged in a competitive market, thereby maximizing its revenue.
*Price maker:* the monopoly decides the price of the good or product being sold. The price is set by determining the quantity in order to demand the price desired by the firm (maximizes revenue).
*High barriers to entry:* other sellers are unable to enter the market of the monopoly.
*Single seller:* in a monopoly one seller produces all of the output for a good or service. The entire market is served by a single firm. For practical purposes the firm is the same as the industry.
*Price discrimination:* in a monopoly the firm can change the price and quantity of the good or service. In an elastic market the firm will sell a high quantity of the good if the price is less. If the price is high, the firm will sell a reduced quantity in an elastic market."
Introduction to Monopoly | Boundless Economics


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 29, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Black borrowers default at higher rates.
> They need to bring back actual redlining.


Because timid white supremacists made sure blacks would not be allowed to own their homes  at the same rate as equally qualified whites.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 29, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Monopolies set prices with no input from "free" markets required, and there's nothing subjective about that.*
> 
> *Achieving monopoly status is what every capitalist aspires to.
> 
> ...


The only monopolies in this country are all created and protected by the government.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 29, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Because timid white supremacists made sure blacks would not be allowed to own their homes  at the same rate as equally qualified whites.


There is absolutely no evidence to support that claim.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 29, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> I agree, we don't want to catch criminals by frisking them......durr.
> Stop driving like such jackasses, you'll get pulled over less.


*Greed is NOT good.*




"The Guardian reported that “leaders at Wall Street’s top banks are to receive pay deals worth more than $70bn for their work so far this year – despite plunging the global financial system into its worst crisis since the 1929 stock market crash'"

Put These Wall Street Criminals Where They Belong


----------



## dblack (Dec 29, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Monopolies set prices with ..
> [George's usual horseshit redacted]


You know, I started out typing a reply, but I thought "why pretend this commie shill deserves anything more than contempt and ridicule?" I couldn't really come up with a good answer. You got anything?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 29, 2021)

jc456 said:


> oh for fk sake.







"A wave of protests in U.S. cities last year provoked by police killings of Black citizens, including George Floyd on May 25, raised awareness of the history of what academics call systemic racism."

The Historical Reasons Behind the U.S. Racial Wealth Gap


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 29, 2021)

dblack said:


> You know, I started out typing a reply, but I thought "why pretend this commie shill deserves anything more than contempt and ridicule?" I couldn't really come up with a good answer. You got anything?


Hit ignore.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 29, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Monopolies set prices with no input from "free" markets required, and there's nothing subjective about that.*
> 
> *Achieving monopoly status is what every capitalist aspires to.
> 
> ...



*Monopolies set prices with no input from "free" markets required, and there's nothing subjective about that.*

Like communism?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 29, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Because timid white supremacists made sure blacks would not be allowed to own their homes  at the same rate as equally qualified whites.



Fewer qualified blacks means lower home ownership.


----------



## jc456 (Dec 29, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "A wave of protests in U.S. cities last year provoked by police killings of Black citizens, including George Floyd on May 25, raised awareness of the history of what academics call systemic racism."
> 
> The Historical Reasons Behind the U.S. Racial Wealth Gap


Why isn’t Floyd in the car?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 29, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "A wave of protests in U.S. cities last year provoked by police killings of Black citizens, including George Floyd on May 25, raised awareness of the history of what academics call systemic racism."
> 
> The Historical Reasons Behind the U.S. Racial Wealth Gap



Lower education levels, higher unwed motherhood, more criminal behavior.
Why wouldn't that lead to a wealth gap?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 30, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Redlining is a commie myth.


*Tell Bloomberg.*

The Historical Reasons Behind the U.S. Racial Wealth Gap

"Today, owning a home is the most common way Americans hold wealth. The working class gained access to the U.S. housing market in the 1930s with the creation of the modern mortgage, a part of broader policies to restore prosperity during the Great Depression. 

"Black families, however, were largely left out through a practice called redlining. A federal agency called the Home Owners’ Loan Corporation assigned grades to neighborhoods based on criteria including the race and class of residents

 "Areas that got the lowest grade were deemed hazardous to lend to and color-coded red on maps, making it difficult for Black people to get mortgages."


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Tell Bloomberg.*
> 
> The Historical Reasons Behind the U.S. Racial Wealth Gap
> 
> ...


That may have been true in the 1930s.  It was true in the 1980s.  It was against the law.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 30, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> What do plea bargains have to do with capitalism?
> 
> What do "No stop and frisk or DWB" have to do with capitalism?


How else will greedy capitalists keep their for-profit prisons filled?


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 30, 2021)

dblack said:


> You know, I started out typing a reply, but I thought "why pretend this commie shill deserves anything more than contempt and ridicule?" I couldn't really come up with a good answer. You got anything?


You're the commie shill, douchebag.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How else will greedy capitalists keep their for-profit prisons filled?


The people going to prison are all BLM and Antifa thugs.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How else will greedy capitalists keep their for-profit prisons filled?



Prisons full of criminals cost the taxpayer money......


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Tell Bloomberg.*
> 
> The Historical Reasons Behind the U.S. Racial Wealth Gap
> 
> ...


Yes, that's the myth.  The only problem is when they looked at the interest rates people were offered, there was no differenced for people with the same credit rating.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 30, 2021)

dblack said:


> See if you can find a single quote where I "worship racist tyrants".


I never said you did.
Guilty conscience?


----------



## dblack (Dec 30, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> You're the commie shill, douchebag.


??? What, because I don't follow Trump?


----------



## dblack (Dec 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> I never said you did.


No, you didn't say it directly. You're far too chickenshit to make an actual accusation. You just insinuate and post moronic memes. Like this:


georgephillip said:


> Guilty conscience?


Twat.


----------



## dblack (Dec 30, 2021)

dblack said:


> ??? What, because I don't follow Trump?


Seriously bripat9643 , grow a pair and post a quote of me promoting communism. Or, you know, shut the fuck up.


----------



## jc456 (Dec 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How else will greedy capitalists keep their for-profit prisons filled?


They’d be empty if criminals didn’t do crime


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 30, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Robert S. Browne is a commie propagandist. He's quadruple counting the money


How did you arrive at the conclusion Browne is quadruple counting the money; show your work.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 30, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> When northern textile mills made money weaving cloth, you don't get to count it as profit from slavery. That's a bullshit leftwing propaganda tactic.


When racist northern capitalists increased their profit margin by purchasing slave-produced cracker cotton, you do get to factor slavery into their surplus.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 30, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> No monopoly on the use of force is one alternative.


Who gets rich from that?




Inside Erik Prince’s Treacherous Drive to Build a Private Air Force


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How did you arrive at the conclusion Browne is quadruple counting the money; show your work.


I've heard this story about how Black slaves created all the wealth in this country.  One thing they do is attribute the wealth from textiles in the North to black slaves because they grew and picked the cotton.  That's bullshit because they could have just bought cotton from some other source, and they would have earned just as much. The propagandists have several other bogus methods for multiplying the wealth supposedly produced by slaves.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> Who gets rich from that?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fauci and Pilosi, to name a couple.

As for Mr Prince, private companies aren't allowed to use force against innocent people.  Only the government can do that.  Let me know the next time his "private air force" fires rockets on anyone's home.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> When racist northern capitalists increased their profit margin by purchasing slave-produced cracker cotton, you do get to factor slavery into their surplus.


You don't get to factor in the entire value of Northern textiles, shit for brains.  They saved maybe 5% of the total value of their output.  Not 100%.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 30, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> When racist northern capitalists increased their profit margin by purchasing slave-produced cracker cotton, you do get to factor slavery into their surplus.



And then the North burned and freed all that Southern wealth.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 30, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> And then the North burned and freed all that Southern wealth.


Yeah, I don't know how these progs can claim that slaves made America rich when the North burned down all the wealth they created.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 30, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Yeah, I don't know how these progs can claim that slaves made America rich when the North burned down all the wealth they created.



No one can accuse the progs of being smart.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 31, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> Those are the characteristics of socialism, moron.


How many socialists earned a profit from the transatlantic slave trade or WWI?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 31, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *"In 2000, economist Robert S. Browne calculated that the income produced by enslaved people for their White owners prior to 1860 was between $1.4 trillion and $4.7 trillion in modern money.*
> 
> And then we broke and burned all their stuff.


But we forgot to hang them.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 31, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *"In 1865, at the conclusion of the Civil War that ended slavery, freed slaves were promised 40 acres (16 hectares) of land to build an economic future for themselves.*
> 
> No they weren't.







"We have been taught in school that the source of the policy of '40 acres and a mule' was Union General William T. Sherman’s Special Field Order No. 15, issued on Jan. 16, 1865. (That account is half-right: 

"Sherman prescribed the 40 acres in that Order, but not the mule. 

"The mule would come later.) 

"But what many accounts leave out is that this idea for massive land redistribution actually was the result of a discussion that Sherman and Secretary of War Edwin M. Stanton held four days _before_ Sherman issued the Order, with 20 leaders of the black community in Savannah, Ga., where Sherman was headquartered following his famous March to the Sea. 

"The meeting was unprecedented in American history."

The Truth Behind '40 Acres and a Mule' | African American History Blog | The African Americans: Many Rivers to Cross


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 31, 2021)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Thanks. Nobody offered them 40 acres.
> Glad you finally learned something.


Your ignorance is impressive.
Maybe you should read more?


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 31, 2021)

bripat9643 said:


> That was 90 years ago, turd.


*Thanks for proving more than four generations of systemic racism has resulted in...*

The Historical Reasons Behind the U.S. Racial Wealth Gap

"The average White household in the U.S. today has amassed about seven times more wealth than the average Black household. 

"The disparity widened in the half-century since the civil rights movement, despite a wave of laws protecting against racial discrimination at work, in housing and other economic realms. 

"A wave of protests in U.S. cities last year provoked by police killings of Black citizens, including George Floyd on May 25, raised awareness of the history of what academics call systemic racism."


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 31, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How many socialists earned a profit from the transatlantic slave trade or WWI?


So you believe the men digging for gold in the Gulags were free men?


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 31, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Thanks for proving more than four generations of systemic racism has resulted in...*
> 
> The Historical Reasons Behind the U.S. Racial Wealth Gap
> 
> ...


"Systematic racism" is a term meaning racism that prog idiots like you can't possibly prove.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 31, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> But we forgot to hang them.


hang them for what, following the law?

There is no way the government could have ever getoon a jury of 12 men to convict any Southerner, moron.

All you proved, once again, is that you're a NAZI moron.


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 31, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "We have been taught in school that the source of the policy of '40 acres and a mule' was Union General William T. Sherman’s Special Field Order No. 15, issued on Jan. 16, 1865. (That account is half-right:
> 
> "Sherman prescribed the 40 acres in that Order, but not the mule.
> 
> ...


They were all too stupid to understand that their plan violated the Constitution.  Of course, the entire war violated the Constitution.


----------



## georgephillip (Dec 31, 2021)

tahuyaman said:


> It benefits most everyone in our society whether you know it or not.


If it's true the owners of the means of production number around 2% of Americans, giving that small minority the power to decide what to produce, where to produce it, and how to distribute any surplus does not benefit society as a whole.




Total Household Debt Climbs to Over $15 Trillion in Q3 2021, Driven by New Extensions of Credit - FEDERAL RESERVE BANK of NEW YORK


----------



## bripat9643 (Dec 31, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> If it's true the owners of the means of production number around 2% of Americans, giving that small minority the power to decide what to produce, where to produce it, and how to distribute any surplus does not benefit society as a whole.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Anyone who has a pension plan or a 401K is one of the owners of the means of production, asshole.  Buying stock in the company is what gives them the right.  I fail to see how you acquired any right to interfere in those decisions, and I thank god you don't have such a right.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 31, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> "We have been taught in school that the source of the policy of '40 acres and a mule' was Union General William T. Sherman’s Special Field Order No. 15, issued on Jan. 16, 1865. (That account is half-right:
> 
> "Sherman prescribed the 40 acres in that Order, but not the mule.
> 
> ...



_"But what many accounts leave out is that this idea for massive land redistribution actually was the result of a discussion that Sherman and Secretary of War Edwin M. Stanton held four days before Sherman issued the Order, with 20 leaders of the black community in Savannah, Ga., where Sherman was headquartered following his famous March to the Sea._

How many votes did the "idea" get in the House and Senate? When did the President sign it?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 31, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> *Thanks for proving more than four generations of systemic racism has resulted in...*
> 
> The Historical Reasons Behind the U.S. Racial Wealth Gap
> 
> ...



_"The average White household in the U.S. today has amassed about seven times more wealth than the average Black household._

Stay in school. Get married before you have kids. Don't commit crime.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Dec 31, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> If it's true the owners of the means of production number around 2% of Americans, giving that small minority the power to decide what to produce, where to produce it, and how to distribute any surplus does not benefit society as a whole.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You were just whining that blacks don't have enough mortgages, now you're whining that whites have too many? LOL!


----------



## jc456 (Dec 31, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> How many socialists earned a profit from the transatlantic slave trade or WWI?


Just a real quick answer, ask the blacks in South Africa. Now, where would blacks be if they never left South Africa back then? Just curious why you feel the need to intervene without their permission


----------



## jc456 (Dec 31, 2021)

georgephillip said:


> But we forgot to hang them.


The kkk took care of that, your party


----------



## tahuyaman (Dec 31, 2021)

tahuyaman said:


> It benefits most everyone in our soc





tahuyaman said:


> It benefits most everyone in our society whether you know it or not.





georgephillip said:


> *It's hard for me to understand how an economic system dedicated to maximizing profit for a relative handful of society can be compatible with a political system allegedly based on one person/one vote?*
> 
> https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf
> 
> "Capitalism and democracy follow different logics: unequally distributed property rights on the one hand, equal civic and political rights on the other; profit-oriented trade within capitalism in contrast to the search for the common good within democracy; debate, *compromise and majority decision-making within democratic politics versus hierarchical decision-making by managers and capital owners."*


Whether you agree or not is irrelevant   Capitalism provides a benefit to every American even if they don't realize it.


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 1, 2022)

bripat9643 said:


> Those handful of people you blubber about create the vast wealth that we enjoy. Government creates nothing.


Amazon had approximately 800,000 employees in 2019. How much of the vast wealth we enjoy was due to their labor compared to Jeff the Parasite?




Then there's the exploitation...


----------



## dblack (Jan 1, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> How many socialists earned a profit from the transatlantic slave trade or WWI?


328,845


----------



## bripat9643 (Jan 1, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> Amazon had approximately 800,000 employees in 2019. How much of the vast wealth we enjoy was due to their labor compared to Jeff the Parasite?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Amazon wouldn't exist without Jeff Bezos.  None of those 800,000 people would have a job without him.  He probably deserves more than $200 billion.


----------



## jc456 (Jan 1, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> Amazon had approximately 800,000 employees in 2019. How much of the vast wealth we enjoy was due to their labor compared to Jeff the Parasite?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How did employees get exploited? They in chains?  Have an inability to quit?


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 1, 2022)

bripat9643 said:


> Nothing i smor edangerous for the economy than politicians and bureaucrats.








Financial Speculation and Fictitious Profits | SpringerLink


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jan 1, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> Financial Speculation and Fictitious Profits | SpringerLink



Marxists whining about fictious profits. Hilarious!!


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 2, 2022)

bripat9643 said:


> That's a pile of commie lies. Pinochet fought a civil war against commies who were trying to overthrow the government. The people of Chile owe Pinochet a huge debt of thanks.


*What do the thousands of tortured, murdered/disappeared people of Chile owe Pinochet?*

Shielded for decades, Pinochet thugs now face justice

"Chilean President Michelle Bachelet has called for an end to the 'pact of silence' that for more than 25 years has protected those who conducted the reign of terror during the 17 years of Augusto Pinochet’s dictatorship.

Bachelet herself had been imprisoned and tortured by the Pinochet junta. 

"She said, 'There are people who know the truth about many cases that are still unsolved.' She urged those who know to come forward 'and help to repair so much pain.'"


----------



## bripat9643 (Jan 2, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> *What do the thousands of tortured, murdered/disappeared people of Chile owe Pinochet?*
> 
> Shielded for decades, Pinochet thugs now face justice
> 
> ...


She was probably one of those commies in the employ of Cuba who was trying to overthrow the government.  She belongs in front of a firing squad.   It only took the Cuban people 40 years to forget how they almost became a Cuban client state and vote these vermin into office.

You realize that you linked to a communist website, don't you?  Jerry Rubin, the author, is a notorious communist activist.


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 2, 2022)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *What sort of freedom did Milton and Pinochet bring to Chile?*
> 
> The best sort. And they still have the strongest economy in South America.


Shielded for decades, Pinochet thugs now face justice

"On September 11, 1973, Augusto Pinochet, then army commander-in-chief, took control of Chile. He led a U.S.-sponsored coup that murdered popularly elected President Salvador Allende and overthrew the governing coalition headed by the Socialist Party. Pinochet ruled Chile until 1990, when he went back to being the commander-in-chief of the army."


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jan 2, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> Shielded for decades, Pinochet thugs now face justice
> 
> "On September 11, 1973, Augusto Pinochet, then army commander-in-chief, took control of Chile. He led a U.S.-sponsored coup that murdered popularly elected President Salvador Allende and overthrew the governing coalition headed by the Socialist Party. Pinochet ruled Chile until 1990, when he went back to being the commander-in-chief of the army."



Yup, commies gonna commie.


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 2, 2022)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *Maybe you haven't noticed how often "free markets" require killing and enslavement?*
> 
> You just have to kill enough Commies to keep your market free.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jan 2, 2022)

georgephillip said:


>



Republicans freed those slaves over 150 years ago.


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 4, 2022)

Flash said:


> The billionaires are the ones that back the Democrats. One of them gave the filthy ass Democrats almost a half billion dollars. Another one (Soros) fucking owns the Democrat party.


Republican billionaire supporters are more numerous than Democrat plutocrats. Both parties serve the richest ten percent at the expense of a majority of society.




The Billionaire Magnates Behind the GOP Candidates


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 4, 2022)

Flash said:


> However the government takes my earned money by force every year and gives it away to welfare queens and Illegals.


There were less than ten billionaires in the US when Reagan came to office. Today there are hundreds. Do you think greedy parasites suddenly became that much smarter or did they bribe government for favorable tax and trade policies? You should worry more about how government gives your money to Wall Street and the Pentagon than relative pennies to the victims of capitalism.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jan 4, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> There were less than ten billionaires in the US when Reagan came to office. Today there are hundreds. Do you think greedy parasites suddenly became that much smarter or did they bribe government for favorable tax and trade policies?



Technology. 
It's not much of an issue in your commie shitholes.


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 4, 2022)

dblack said:


> Lying again. Here's what you said:
> That's not true. Why can't you just admit you were wrong?


I said workers today are required to leave decision making to others in the same way serf and slaves were required to serve their masters.




Workers today are not murdered for resisting; they are fired.
Their punishment for disobedience is much less severe than that experienced by serfs and slaves, but workers face the same choice when it comes to obeying the orders of a miniscule percentage of society.


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 4, 2022)

dblack said:


> It's a subtle but important distinction that you are, frankly, too stupid to understand.


Are you smart enough to explain it?

My grandmother was so conservative she refused to sign up for SS when the program was first launched.

She died shortly after retirement because of her fear of socialism.

Rand not only signed up, she used her benefits which isn't subtle; it is a prime example of libertarian hypocrisy.


----------



## dblack (Jan 4, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> I said workers today are required to leave decision making to others in the same way serf and slaves were required to serve their masters.


Right. And that's complete horseshit. Not to mention a grotesque insult to the memory of those who suffered through _real_ slavery.


----------



## dblack (Jan 4, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> Are you smart enough to explain it?


Indeed, I am. But I've wasted way too much time already with your fucking trolling. Go suck off a commie.


georgephillip said:


> My grandmother was so conservative she refused to sign up for SS when the program was first launched.
> She died shortly after retirement because of her fear of socialism.


Your grandmother wasn't conservative. She was idiot. Just like her grandson.


georgephillip said:


> Rand not only signed up, she used her benefits which isn't subtle; it is a prime example of libertarian hypocrisy.


No. Libertarians don't advocating rolling over and getting fucked in that ass. If you're forced to pay into their fucking scam, you're an idiot not to get your money back if and when you can. Talk about blaming the victim.

Have I said "fuck you" recently?


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 4, 2022)

bripat9643 said:


> It doesn't shrink, moron. It grows.


*Money that's spent repaying private debt can't be spent to grow GDP*.




"In the United States since 2008, the Federal Reserve has created $4.5 trillion of credit to the stock and bond market and mortgage market to support prices for real estate. 

*"The aim has been to make housing more expensive, enabling the banks to collect on their mortgages and not go under. *

"This credit keeps the debt overhead in place, thereby keeping the keep the financial system afloat instead of facing the reality that debt needs to be written down. 

*"Because if it is not written down, the 'real' economy will be hollowed out. In that sense the financial overgrowth is largely fictitious wealth."

Debt and Power | Michael Hudson*


----------



## bripat9643 (Jan 4, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> *Money that's spent repaying private debt can't be spent to grow GDP*.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Of course it can.  If Elon musk borrows $1 billion to build a GIGA factory, does that grow the economy?

It certainly does.  That money goes into the "I" in your equation.



georgephillip said:


> *"The aim has been to make housing more expensive, enabling the banks to collect on their mortgages and not go under. *
> 
> "This credit keeps the debt overhead in place, thereby keeping the keep the financial system afloat instead of facing the reality that debt needs to be written down.



I have no idea what that is supposed to mean.



georgephillip said:


> *"Because if it is not written down, the 'real' economy will be hollowed out. In that sense the financial overgrowth is largely fictitious wealth."
> 
> Debt and Power | Michael Hudson*



Utterly meaningless.  Thanks for confirming my suspicion that Michael Hudson is a con artist.


----------



## Flash (Jan 4, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> There were less than ten billionaires in the US when Reagan came to office. Today there are hundreds. Do you think greedy parasites suddenly became that much smarter or did they bribe government for favorable tax and trade policies? You should worry more about how government gives your money to Wall Street and the Pentagon than relative pennies to the victims of capitalism.




You are confused about a lot of things Moon Bat.

Libatrd policies have made the filthy ass globalists richer than dog shit.  That is why all these billionaires support the Democrat assholes.

They get their accountants to take care of the increase in income taxes and they make billions in servicing big government policies.

Just look at that billionaire Soros that is the sugar daddy of the filthy Democrat party.  That dumbshit President Potatohead shut down the pipeline and now the oil is transported by Soros owned rail lines.  Meanwhile the price of gas at the pump goes up for working Americans.

All these billionaires that supported the Democrat Party are getting even richer.  That is why the Silicon Valley billionaire all are big time Democrat fat cat donors.  Hell, one of the sonofabitch gave the Democrat turds almost a half billion dollars.

Left policies always make the poor poorer and the rich richer.  We have seen it every where.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jan 4, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> *Money that's spent repaying private debt can't be spent to grow GDP*.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Money that's spent repaying private debt can't be spent to grow GDP*.

LOL! Why not?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jan 4, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> *Money that's spent repaying private debt can't be spent to grow GDP*.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*The Fed’s supply of $4.5 trillion isn’t called public debt, because it’s technically a swap, so it doesn’t appear as an increase in the money supply.*

The Fed doesn't increase the money supply when they buy bonds?

That's hilarious.

Silly commie.


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 5, 2022)

bripat9643 said:


> The "tension" is the fact that democracy loots the capitalist system for its wealth. Democracy is fundamentally a parasite.


*Capitalism's market slaves worship rich parasites regardless of the costs to productive society.*





"The way capitalism works, says Piketty, is that existing wealth earns a 5 percent rate of return, *r*. 

"The total pool of labor income, meanwhile, grows at the rate of overall GDP, *g*. 

"When *r* is larger than *g* the pool of wealth owned by wealth-owners grows faster than the pool of labor income earned by workers.


"Since r is usually larger than g, the wealthy get wealthier. 

"The poor don't necessarily get poorer, but the gap between the earnings power of people who own lots of buildings and shares and the earnings power of people working for a living will grow and grow."

The short guide to Capital in the 21st Century


----------



## a1623yankee (Jan 5, 2022)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Capitalism is NOT Democratic: Democracy is NOT Capitalist​
> And Communism is not succesful.


----------



## a1623yankee (Jan 5, 2022)

"And Communism is not succesful."

There is no communism on this planet except for the generally very successful tribes of isolated indigenous peoples. All of those political systems which claim to be, or are accused of being, communist are merely shams, faux displays of the purveyors of GREED, aka CAPITALISM. Even the largest so-called current communist state in our contemporary world, China, is a nationalized CAPITALIST state that uses the term communism to mask their goal(s) of world domination and ownership. If there is a single complete human thought/emotion process that is pure evil and portends the ultimate failure of mankind, it is GREED. If there is a single tool which will force the majority of mankind into self destruction, it is CAPITALISM. If there is a tunneled means of subjugating and finally burning this planet to its roots with no return, it is right wing fascism innate within its extreme label of naziism.

This fascism/nazism corruption is rife and rampant with its constant willful ignorance, blind stupidity, perpetual LIES and POWER hungry war towards domination both without and deeply within the USA. The monsters who are/were the progenitors of this current movement of evil throughout the world in the era of WWII were NOT defeated. They simply moved underground to wage the most successful and insidious form of warfare ever experienced on earth. What is occurring today with the willfully ignorant, the rampantly stupid and blindly loyal goosestepping morons that toss LIES and misleading accusations out willy nilly, with no regard whatsoever towards Mother Earth and her inhabitants is direct result of this evil that is right wing fascism/naziism.

Don't speak to us about communism with disdain. Communism is small potatoes. There is an exponentially darker, destructive and evil path that is leading the world to armageddon and it is working directly through those who deflect, spin and project to hide it in plain sight. Use the terms right wing fascism and naziism as the terms of filth.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jan 5, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> *Capitalism's market slaves worship rich parasites regardless of the costs to productive society.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



_"The way capitalism works, says Piketty, is that existing wealth earns a 5 percent rate of return, *r*.

"Since r is usually larger than g, the wealthy get wealthier._

Rich people aren't spending their wealth? Aren't dying and splitting it between heirs?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jan 5, 2022)

a1623yankee said:


> Don't speak to us about communism with disdain. Communism is small potatoes.



Small, rotten potatoes. 

With the blood of 100 million of their own people on their hands.


----------



## bripat9643 (Jan 5, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> *Capitalism's market slaves worship rich parasites regardless of the costs to productive society.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The reason wages haven't grown as fast as they have in the past is the fact that all you prog douchebags have been doing everything you can to import hoards of low wage foreign workers.  

if you want to know who to blame, look in the mirror, douchebag.


----------



## Ringo (Jan 5, 2022)

The capitalists draw the future for us like this:. Everything will be rented. Housing, cars, appliances and even clothes. No need to take out loans or save for a long time. Diversity is guaranteed. Everyone will be happy, except for those few poor devils who will own it all!  Oh, wonderful, wonderful world!


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jan 5, 2022)

Ringo said:


> The capitalists draw the future for us like this:. Everything will be rented. Housing, cars, appliances and even clothes. No need to take out loans or save for a long time. Diversity is guaranteed. Everyone will be happy, except for those few poor devils who will own it all!  Oh, wonderful, wonderful world!



Renting is awful!!!

We must all have Soviet housing.

No car loans.....just wait 9 years for your Trabant.


----------



## bripat9643 (Jan 5, 2022)

Ringo said:


> The capitalists draw the future for us like this:. Everything will be rented. Housing, cars, appliances and even clothes. No need to take out loans or save for a long time. Diversity is guaranteed. Everyone will be happy, except for those few poor devils who will own it all!  Oh, wonderful, wonderful world!


I've never heard any "capitalist" say that.


----------



## kaz (Jan 5, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> Household purchasing power for 90% of Americans has declined over the last forty years; where have you been?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OK, a new standard you just made up.  Most Americans are not poor you fucking moron.   We will be if we follow you though, Marxist


----------



## kaz (Jan 5, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> Not foolish enough to believe private bankers planning the economy works for anyone except the richest one percent and other useless eaters, like you.



Yes, I want to abolish the Fed which means that I support private bankers planning the economy. Never said your fucking straw man, retard.  You're just making up more shit.   Let's face it, you aren't bright, you have to make it up


----------



## kaz (Jan 5, 2022)

bripat9643 said:


> I've never heard any "capitalist" say that.



Ringo is making up more shit


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 5, 2022)

bripat9643 said:


> George's conception of a parasite is someone who works hard, invests and saves his money.


If corrupt Wall Street parasites work hard looting the productive economy, does that add or subtract from GDP? Does society in general benefit from such "hard work"?


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 5, 2022)

bripat9643 said:


> How does that make anyone give me stuff?


When parasites pay a lower federal tax rate on their capital gains, productive labor and businesses either assume a larger share of the tax burden or austerity privatizes what were formerly public (non-profit) infrastructure. Any way the rich get richer by socializing costs and privatizing profits.


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 5, 2022)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Thank goodness you don't have any money, you're still pure.


*And you're still polluted:*

The short guide to Capital in the 21st Century

"Can you give me Piketty's argument in four bullet points?​
The ratio of wealth to income is rising in all developed countries.
Absent extraordinary interventions, we should expect that trend to continue.
If it continues, the future will look like the 19th century, where economic elites have predominantly inherited their wealth rather than working for it.
The best solution would be a globally coordinated effort to tax wealth."


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 5, 2022)

dblack said:


> No. You seem confused. But then, you're a socialist. It goes with the territory.


----------



## kaz (Jan 5, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> If corrupt Wall Street parasites work hard looting the productive economy, does that add or subtract from GDP? Does society in general benefit from such "hard work"?



Gotcha, we need Marxists to suck the economy dry, then things will be better


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jan 5, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> When parasites pay a lower federal tax rate on their capital gains, productive labor and businesses either assume a larger share of the tax burden or austerity privatizes what were formerly public (non-profit) infrastructure. Any way the rich get richer by socializing costs and privatizing profits.



Did the rich put too much of the tax burden on you?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jan 5, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> *And you're still polluted:*
> 
> The short guide to Capital in the 21st Century
> 
> ...




*The ratio of wealth to income is rising in all developed countries.*
Yeah, technology.


*Absent extraordinary interventions, we should expect that trend to continue.*
We already waste...err...invest trillions in handouts to people like you.


*If it continues, the future will look like the 19th century, where economic elites have predominantly inherited their wealth rather than working for it.*
Meh.


*The best solution would be a globally coordinated effort to tax wealth."*

If at first you don't succeed, fail fail again.


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 5, 2022)

dblack said:


> Do you claim health care as a right? Housing? Food? Education? Maybe I was wrong about you.


You're wrong about most things, but the above isn't one of them. I believe society functions best when it collectively supplies basic human rights without requiring each individual to pay for some rich parasite's profit margin.


----------



## bripat9643 (Jan 5, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> If corrupt Wall Street parasites work hard looting the productive economy, does that add or subtract from GDP? Does society in general benefit from such "hard work"?


Washington politicians are the ones who loot the economy, douchebag.  Wall Street brokers don't take money from people at gunpoint.  Government does that.


----------



## bripat9643 (Jan 5, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> You're wrong about most things, but the above isn't one of them. I believe society functions best when it collectively supplies basic human rights without requiring each individual to pay for some rich parasite's profit margin.


The empirical evidence shows that government is the worst at doing that.


----------



## dblack (Jan 5, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> You're wrong about most things, but the above isn't one of them. I believe society functions best when it collectively supplies basic human rights without requiring each individual to pay for some rich parasite's profit margin.


Which directly contradicts:


> If I've ever characterized a human right as a good or service others must provide, it was unintentional.



So, which is it?


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 5, 2022)

dblack said:


> But if you're claiming medical care as a right - that's free shit! That's a service others must provide. Which you deny above. How can you contradict yourself in the same fucking post?


Public options for education, housing, and medical care are rights in the same way public safety is a right or freedom of speech is a right or freedom of religion is a right. You really need to pull your nose out of the Koch brothers' asses before you destroy what little credibility you have left.


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 5, 2022)

bripat9643 said:


> That's a communist document. No legitimate right can involve forcing other people to supply it.


*Point out the communists, Loon.*

Universal Declaration of Human Rights - Wikipedia

"Of the 58 members of the United Nations at the time, 48 voted in favour, none against, eight abstained, and two did not vote.[2]"


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 5, 2022)

bripat9643 said:


> You just did, turd. You claimed education is a right


Just like freedom of speech, religion, and your precious gun-pussy rights to shoot up schools, churches, and shopping malls.


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 5, 2022)

bripat9643 said:


> What is your poster supposed to mean? It's not an answer to his question.


Private tyrants like the Koch brothers are a bigger threat to your freedom than those calling for "free stuff."


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 5, 2022)

bripat9643 said:


> They obviously don't. There's nothing more expensive than free medical care. "Free education" is so expensive because the government provides it.


----------



## bripat9643 (Jan 5, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> Public options for education, housing, and medical care are rights in the same way public safety is a right or freedom of speech is a right or freedom of religion is a right. You really need to pull your nose out of the Koch brothers' asses before you destroy what little credibility you have left.


NO they aren't.  The only thing needed to observe freedom of speech is to not prevent anyone from speaking.  Providing education, housing and medical care, on the other hand,  require extorting vast sums of money from innocent people.

I've never heard anyone call "public safety" a right, which is probably because it isn't.


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Jan 5, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/fil...-_is_capitalism_compatible_with_democracy.pdf
> 
> "Capitalism and democracy follow different logics: unequally distributed property rights on the one hand, equal civic and political rights on the other; profit oriented trade within capitalism in contrast to the search for the common good within democracy; debate, compromise and majority decision-making within democratic politics versus hierarchical decision-making by managers and capital owners.
> 
> ...


New flash America was never meant to be a democracy. We are a Republic.


----------



## bripat9643 (Jan 5, 2022)

georgephillip said:


>


How does that prove it's a right?


----------



## bripat9643 (Jan 5, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> Private tyrants like the Koch brothers are a bigger threat to your freedom than those calling for "free stuff."


There's no such thing as a "private tyrant," and those calling for free stuff are calling for the government to loot me at gunpoint, so they are definitely a much bigger threat to my freedom.


----------



## bripat9643 (Jan 5, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> Just like freedom of speech, religion, and your precious gun-pussy rights to shoot up schools, churches, and shopping malls.


No one ever claimed you have right to shoot up schools, churches or shopping malls.


----------



## Bobob (Jan 5, 2022)

Rambunctious said:


> Today the USA is neither capitalist or Democratic.....


Today the USA is both capitalist and democratic, has always been, and both work in harmony with each other. If the democratic portion of the equation is threatened by an unscrupulous totalitarian,
we will fall into an abyss of anarchy, with an autocrat at the helm. I guess that you tumpers think that it is ok.


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 5, 2022)

bripat9643 said:


> Rights don't have to be implemented. They don't require the government to fund them. They just need to be recognized.


Crackers don't recognize rights.




Government needs to fund implementation.
MAGA yet?


----------



## bripat9643 (Jan 5, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> Crackers don't recognize rights.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Was that supposed to prove something other than that you are an offensive douchebag?


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 5, 2022)

bripat9643 said:


> Your source is a communist. Therefore, not credible.


What evidence can you supply to confirm your claim Michael Hudson is a communist?


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 5, 2022)

bripat9643 said:


> Prior to WW I countries hardly ever loaned other countries money to fight a war.


Got a link for that?


----------



## bripat9643 (Jan 5, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> What evidence can you supply to confirm your claim Michael Hudson is a communist?


" He was assistant professor of economics at the New School for Social Research"

That's a den of commies and a commie propaganda organ.


----------



## bripat9643 (Jan 5, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> Got a link for that?


Find one that did.


----------



## dblack (Jan 5, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> Public options for education, housing, and medical care are rights in the same way public safety is a right or freedom of speech is a right or freedom of religion is a right.


No, they are fundamentally different. You can pretend otherwise, but I suspect you know better.


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 6, 2022)

bripat9643 said:


> Prior to WW I countries hardly ever loaned other countries money to fight a war. Can you provide an example where one did?


The examples extend as far back as Babylonia.





Napoleon's planned invasion of the United Kingdom - Wikipedia.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jan 6, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> The examples extend as far back as Babylonia.



That was a war? Who lent the money?


----------



## bripat9643 (Jan 6, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> The examples extend as far back as Babylonia.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So where did Napoleon loan the USA money or visa-versa?


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 6, 2022)

bripat9643 said:


> He's obviously incompetent because stocks perform a very necessary function in the economy. He must be a commie moron like you.


*When banks loan for the long-term benefit of millions of workers and businesses they perform a necessary function. 

When they loan for short-term speculation and asset-inflation, they destroy the productive economy.*
What Good Is Wall Street?

"Just like power utilities, the big banks have a commanding position in the market, which they can use for the benefit of their customers and the economy at large. 

"But when banks seek to exploit their position and make a quick killing, they can cause enormous damage."


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jan 6, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> *When banks loan for the long-term benefit of millions of workers and businesses they perform a necessary function.
> 
> When they loan for short-term speculation and asset-inflation, they destroy the productive economy.*
> What Good Is Wall Street?
> ...



*Much of what investment bankers do is socially worthless.*

Feel free not to use their services.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jan 6, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> I provided a credible source for the claim prior to WWI wartime allies had never required debt repayment among them., and the US reversed that policy. If you have a different view, post it.



Which wars? How much debt? Post that link.


----------



## bripat9643 (Jan 6, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> *When banks loan for the long-term benefit of millions of workers and businesses they perform a necessary function.
> 
> When they loan for short-term speculation and asset-inflation, they destroy the productive economy.*
> What Good Is Wall Street?
> ...


People don't borrow money to buy stocks, moron.


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 7, 2022)

bripat9643 said:


> It's not the biggest or mostly highly paid industry. Apple is the biggest corporation in the world, not Goldman Sachs.


"Since 1980, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the number of people employed in finance, broadly defined, has shot up from roughly five million to more than seven and a half million. 

"During the same period, the profitability of the financial sector has increased greatly relative to other industries. 

"Think of all the profits produced by businesses operating in the U.S. as a cake. 

"Twenty-five years ago, the slice taken by financial firms was about a seventh of the whole. 

"Last year, it was more than a quarter. (In 2006, at the peak of the boom, it was about a third.) 

"In other words, during a period in which American companies have created iPhones, Home Depot, and Lipitor, t*he best place to work has been in an industry that doesn’t design, build, or sell a single tangible thing."

What Good Is Wall Street?*


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 7, 2022)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> r make student loans way beyond the ability of borrowers to pay.....ummm.....errr.....never mind.







Why Public College Should Be Free


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jan 7, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> "Since 1980, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the number of people employed in finance, broadly defined, has shot up from roughly five million to more than seven and a half million.



Seven and a half million highly paid Americans?

Sounds awful!!!


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jan 7, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> Why Public College Should Be Free



You should definitely get public college employees to all work for free.


----------



## dblack (Jan 8, 2022)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> You should definitely get public college employees to all work for free.


That's the end game, for sure.


----------



## a1623yankee (Jan 8, 2022)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Small, rotten potatoes.
> 
> With the blood of 100 million of their own people on their hands.


I reiterate, those monsters are NOT communists. They were/are political LIARS and self serving, fascist criminals. The worst effects are that you and others like you have fallen for it. Patriot?...hardly.


----------



## bripat9643 (Jan 8, 2022)

a1623yankee said:


> I reiterate, those monsters are NOT communists. They were/are political LIARS and self serving, fascist criminals. The worst effects are that you and others like you have fallen for it. Patriot?...hardly.


The "not true communism" argument was exploded a long time ago.  There are no true communist countries for the same reason that there are no triangles with four sides.  Both are a logical impossibility.  Considering that, all we can do is look at countries whose rulers claim to be communists, and no rational person wants any part of that.

You are a political liar, douchebag, and you aren't fooling anyone.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jan 8, 2022)

a1623yankee said:


> I reiterate, those monsters are NOT communists. They were/are political LIARS and self serving, fascist criminals. The worst effects are that you and others like you have fallen for it. Patriot?...hardly.



Great, the assholes that called themselves communists and killed 100 million weren't real commies.

Where are the real commies?


----------



## bripat9643 (Jan 8, 2022)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Great, the assholes that called themselves communists and killed 100 million weren't real commies.
> 
> Where are the real commies?


Congress.


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 10, 2022)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> And yet, in demand and useful.


Demand by whom, rich parasites looking for the next big speculative scam?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jan 10, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> Demand by whom, rich parasites looking for the next big speculative scam?



Clients, investors, corporations. Useful people, not poor, whiny losers like you.


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 10, 2022)

bripat9643 said:


> Furthermore, shareholders are not parasites. The company would not exist without them. How do you imagine companies come into existence, magic?


Shareholders in the secondary market contribute nothing in a productive sense; they simply extract money that should rightfully go to employees.


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 10, 2022)

bripat9643 said:


> No corporation ever stole from me. Government, on the other hand, does it on a daily basis.


Corporations that don't pay their fair share in taxes steal from all natural citizens, even those too brainwashed too notice. Government creates corporations and should regulate them in the interest of society.


----------



## dblack (Jan 10, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> Shareholders in the secondary market contribute nothing in a productive sense; they simply extract money that should rightfully go to employees.


Nope. They make the most important decisions in the economy. The decisions that government bureaucrats will make in your dream world.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jan 10, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> Shareholders in the secondary market contribute nothing in a productive sense; they simply extract money that should rightfully go to employees.



If I buy a share of George Co. at $100 and sell it at $200, how much did I steal from your employees?
How did I steal it? Be specific.


----------



## bripat9643 (Jan 10, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> Corporations that don't pay their fair share in taxes steal from all natural citizens, even those too brainwashed too notice. Government creates corporations and should regulate them in the interest of society.


The term "fair share" is meaningless.  It means whatever you want it to mean, and that always means more.  You're trying to claim what they pay is a crime when the government considers it to be perfectly legal.

Government laredy does regulate them heavily, so what's your point?


----------



## bripat9643 (Jan 10, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> Shareholders in the secondary market contribute nothing in a productive sense; they simply extract money that should rightfully go to employees.


How does it rightfully go to the employees?  When did the shareholders agree to that?  Since when is theft "rightful?"  If I buy a painting for $1000, and then I discover it's an original Rembrandt and sell it for $10 million, am I not entitled to it?


----------



## bripat9643 (Jan 10, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> Demand by whom, rich parasites looking for the next big speculative scam?


In demand by anyone with a brain.


----------



## bripat9643 (Jan 10, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> Shareholders in the secondary market contribute nothing in a productive sense; they simply extract money that should rightfully go to employees.


Your dead wrong, douchebag.  People only buy stocks because they know they can resell them later for more.  If there was no secondary market, there would be no primary market.

Marxist imbeciles believe you can repeal all the laws of economics.


----------



## a1623yankee (Jan 11, 2022)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Great, the assholes that called themselves communists and killed 100 million weren't real commies.
> 
> Where are the real commies?


They're on the reservations, in the forests and jungles and along the Arctic circle. The national leaders that claim communism are beset with self serving MONEY, POWER AND RULE fascists, much as the USA is becoming.


----------



## a1623yankee (Jan 11, 2022)

bripat9643 said:


> Your dead wrong, douchebag.  People only buy stocks because they know they can resell them later for more.  If there was no secondary market, there would be no primary market.
> 
> Marxist imbeciles believe you can repeal all the laws of economics.


The only laws of economics are GREED for MONEY, POWER and RULE. The rest of the so-called laws are merely scams to impoverish and subjugate everyone else using criminality.

PS, your "your" should be you're. Stupidity and ignorance have all too common poorly educated markers.


----------



## a1623yankee (Jan 11, 2022)

bripat9643 said:


> In demand by anyone with a brain.


Should be: In demand by anyone who is stupid enough or wildly ignorant with a delusional criminal brain.


----------



## a1623yankee (Jan 11, 2022)

a1623yankee said:


> Should be: In demand by anyone who is stupid enough or wildly ignorant with a delusional criminal brain.


Bear in mind that CAPITALISM is a far cry from and to the point of being diametrically opposed to capitalism


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 11, 2022)

bripat9643 said:


> How can rugged individualism be totalitarian? According to your own definition it doesn't fit the bill. Are rugged individuals "subservient" to the state? Was early American government "centralized?" Was it dictatorial?


*Early American government was largely missing from the frontier where your rugged individualists provided for themselves in order to survive*:

Rugged individualism - Wikipedia

"American rugged individualism has its origins in the American frontier experience. 

"Throughout its evolution, the American frontier was generally sparsely populated and had very little infrastructure in place. 

"Under such conditions, individuals had to provide for themselves to survive. 

"This kind of environment favored people who preferred to work in isolation from a larger community and may have shifted attitudes at the frontier in favor of individualistic thought over collectivism."




*We are no longer living on a frontier.
Decades of investment have changed our production possibilities.
Today's "rugged individualist" who owns his own business has a "my way or the highway" attitude with employees and that makes her rule totalitarian in nature.*


----------



## dblack (Jan 11, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> Today's "rugged individualist" who owns his own business has a "my way or the highway" attitude with employees and that makes her rule totalitarian in nature.


You're equivocating, playing word games again.

"Totalitarian" describes a system of coercive state government, not business. Business is not coercive. 

Do you have anything besides stupid memes and "very special" definitions?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jan 11, 2022)

a1623yankee said:


> They're on the reservations, in the forests and jungles and along the Arctic circle. The national leaders that claim communism are beset with self serving MONEY, POWER AND RULE fascists, much as the USA is becoming.



So we should kill all the fake commies.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jan 11, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> Today's "rugged individualist" who owns his own business has a "my way or the highway" attitude with employees and that makes her rule totalitarian in nature.



A totalitarian rule that you can escape by simply quitting.


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 12, 2022)

dblack said:


> "Totalitarian" describes a system of coercive state government, not business. Business is not coercive.


*Capitalism is autocratic.

Capitalists bribe government for laws and institutions that give a small fraction of society the "right" to decide what to produce, where to produce it, and how to distribute any surplus.




Owners of the means of production rule their businesses through coercion by autocratic, authoritarian, and totalitarian means. *
Definition of totalitarian | Dictionary.com
"Adjective
of or relating to a centralized government that does not tolerate parties of differing opinion and that exercises dictatorial control over many aspects of life.
*exercising control over the freedom, will, or thought of others; authoritarian; autocratic*

"noun
an adherent of totalitarianism"


----------



## a1623yankee (Jan 12, 2022)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> So we should kill all the fake commies.


What in the world is wrong with humanity when someone says (and means) that we should kill all whom we don't like? What in the world is wrong with humanity when we fabricate LIES, especially to ourselves, that would justify such actions in our own minds? How do the delusions become so virulent and violent that LIES form in our minds as justifiable and actionable truths with self obvious criminal conclusions? There are more than a reasonable number of examples of the net results of that type of thinking which include the death camps of the 20th century and the killing fields of southeast Asia. Be careful what you wish for Toddsterpatriot, it could backfire!


----------



## bripat9643 (Jan 12, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> *Capitalism is autocratic.
> 
> Capitalists bribe government for laws and institutions that give a small fraction of society the "right" to decide what to produce, where to produce it, and how to distribute any surplus.
> 
> ...


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jan 12, 2022)

a1623yankee said:


> What in the world is wrong with humanity when someone says (and means) that we should kill all whom we don't like? What in the world is wrong with humanity when we fabricate LIES, especially to ourselves, that would justify such actions in our own minds? How do the delusions become so virulent and violent that LIES form in our minds as justifiable and actionable truths with self obvious criminal conclusions? There are more than a reasonable number of examples of the net results of that type of thinking which include the death camps of the 20th century and the killing fields of southeast Asia. Be careful what you wish for Toddsterpatriot, it could backfire!


*
What in the world is wrong with humanity when someone says (and means) that we should kill all whom we don't like?*

Who said they want to kill everyone they don't like?

*Be careful what you wish for Toddsterpatriot, it could backfire!*

How?


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 12, 2022)

a1623yankee said:


> What in the world is wrong with humanity when we fabricate LIES, especially to ourselves, that would justify such actions in our own minds? How do the delusions become so virulent and violent that LIES form in our minds as justifiable and actionable truths with self obvious criminal conclusions


*One possible answer to your questions is an economic system that rewards a miniscule percentage of humanity with vast fortunes that would never have come into existence in a world without war and debt.*

Dollar Recycling | Michael Hudson

"My book 'Super Imperialism' was about how the United States has gained a free lunch by establishing the dollar as international reserve currency by replacing gold. 




"I also showed that the U.S. balance of payments deficit is almost entirely military related to support its 800 bases around the world."


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 12, 2022)

bripat9643 said:


> The picture at the right is meaningless. Koch wasn't a crony of our government. Anyone who says Stalin was a capitalist is a fucking moron. Your photo says nothing about our government.


*Koch was a crony-capitalist who got rich from sucking up to Stalin before bringing his greed home: *
State capitalism - Wikipedia
"Many scholars agree that the economy of the Soviet Union and of the Eastern Bloc countries modeled after it, including Maoist China, were state capitalist systems, and some western commentators believe that the current economies of China and Singapore also constitute a form of state capitalism.[4][5][6][7][8][9]"


----------



## bripat9643 (Jan 12, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> *One possible answer to your questions is an economic system that rewards a miniscule percentage of humanity with vast fortunes that would never have come into existence in a world without war and debt.*
> 
> Dollar Recycling | Michael Hudson
> 
> ...


That's horseshit, of course.   Those "vast fortunes" represent the plant and equipment that are required to produce the vast wealth showered on the consumers of our society.  Who do you believe should own it, the government?

You're a certified imbecile.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jan 12, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> *Koch was a crony-capitalist who got rich from sucking up to Stalin before bringing his greed home: *
> State capitalism - Wikipedia
> "Many scholars agree that the economy of the Soviet Union and of the Eastern Bloc countries modeled after it, including Maoist China, were state capitalist systems, and some western commentators believe that the current economies of China and Singapore also constitute a form of state capitalism.[4][5][6][7][8][9]"



That's awful!!!

Only liberals get to suck up to Stalin.


----------



## bripat9643 (Jan 12, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> *Koch was a crony-capitalist who got rich from sucking up to Stalin before bringing his greed home: *
> State capitalism - Wikipedia
> "Many scholars agree that the economy of the Soviet Union and of the Eastern Bloc countries modeled after it, including Maoist China, were state capitalist systems, and some western commentators believe that the current economies of China and Singapore also constitute a form of state capitalism.[4][5][6][7][8][9]"


How did Stalin make Koch rich?


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 12, 2022)

bripat9643 said:


> Because A tyranny can only exist when people can arrest you, moron.


Definition of tyranny | Dictionary.com

"noun, plural tyr·an·nies.
arbitrary or unrestrained exercise of power; despotic abuse of authority.
the government or rule of a tyrant or absolute ruler.
a state ruled by a tyrant or absolute ruler.
oppressive or unjustly severe government on the part of any ruler.
undue severity or harshness.
a cruel or harsh act or proceeding; an arbitrary, oppressive, or tyrannical action."

*The arbitrary or despotic abuse of authority doesn't require controlling the monopoly of violence. People who get sick and die from cancerous emissions from for-profit refineries are victims of private tyrants.*


----------



## bripat9643 (Jan 12, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> *Koch was a crony-capitalist who got rich from sucking up to Stalin before bringing his greed home: *
> State capitalism - Wikipedia
> "Many scholars agree that the economy of the Soviet Union and of the Eastern Bloc countries modeled after it, including Maoist China, were state capitalist systems, and some western commentators believe that the current economies of China and Singapore also constitute a form of state capitalism.[4][5][6][7][8][9]"



_State capitalism - Wikipedia_​​_Marxist literature defines state capitalism as a social system combining capitalism with ownership or control by a state. By this definition, a state capitalist country is one where the government controls the economy and essentially acts like a single huge corporation, extracting surplus value from the workforce in order to invest it in further production.[2] This designation applies regardless of the political aims of the state, even if the state is nominally socialist.[3] Many scholars agree that the economy of the Soviet Union and of the Eastern Bloc countries modeled after it, including Maoist China, were state capitalist systems, and some western commentators believe that the current economies of China and Singapore also constitute a form of state capitalism.[4][5][6][7][8]__[9]_​
Socialism/communism, in other words. There's no meaningful difference.


----------



## bripat9643 (Jan 12, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> Definition of tyranny | Dictionary.com
> 
> "noun, plural tyr·an·nies.
> arbitrary or unrestrained exercise of power; despotic abuse of authority.
> ...


Show us where a private corporation can do that.


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 12, 2022)

bripat9643 said:


> Virtually none.


"Koch Industries, a private company, is the United States’ 17th-largest producer of greenhouse gases and the 13th-biggest water polluter, according to research from the University of Massachusetts Amherst – ahead of oil giants Exxon Mobil, Occidental Petroleum and Phillips 66. 

"The conglomerate has committed hundreds of environmental, workplace safety, labor and other violations. 

"It allegedly stole oil from Indian reservations, won business in foreign countries with bribery, *and one of its crumbling butane pipelines killed two teenagers, resulting in a nearly $300m wrongful death settlement."

Death and destruction: this is David Koch's sad legacy | Alex Kotch*


----------



## bripat9643 (Jan 12, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> "Koch Industries, a private company, is the United States’ 17th-largest producer of greenhouse gases and the 13th-biggest water polluter, according to research from the University of Massachusetts Amherst – ahead of oil giants Exxon Mobil, Occidental Petroleum and Phillips 66.
> 
> "The conglomerate has committed hundreds of environmental, workplace safety, labor and other violations.
> 
> ...


So they have committed the same regulatory infractions every other industrial corporation has committed.


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 12, 2022)

bripat9643 said:


> Politicians and government officials have defrauded them any times more.


Politicians and other government officials have defrauded Native Americans and much worse and all of the crimes were for the benefit of rich white male capitalists. Without genocide, war, and debt there are NO private fortunes like your heroic Koch brothers.


----------



## dblack (Jan 12, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> Capitalism is autocratic.


No, it's not. If that's your premise, let's stop right there. 'Autocratic' describes government. It assumes the entity has authority over you. Regardless of your sad world view, Bill Gates doesn't have that kind of power. He can't force you to do a fucking thing.



georgephillip said:


> Capitalists bribe government for laws and institutions that ...


Any government that is open to bribes isn't legitimate, regardless of who is bribing them.


----------



## bripat9643 (Jan 12, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> Politicians and other government officials have defrauded Native Americans and much worse and all of the crimes were for the benefit of rich white male capitalists.


True, so why do you want to give these vermin control over our economy?



georgephillip said:


> Without genocide, war, and debt there are NO private fortunes like your heroic Koch brothers.


You conclusion doesn't follow from your premise.  

In the first place, what's so evil about debt?  Do you believe it should be illegal to loan money?  That's a principle that has kept the Middle East mired in aqualor and poverty.

RIch white male capitalists have created the modern world.  You can thank them for all our modern conveniences.


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 13, 2022)

bripat9643 said:


> Government socializes the losses, moron, and in most cases government mismanagement creates the losses.


Government has been captured by business interests which profit from mismanagement and criminal fraud which is guaranteed to happen when a miniscule percentage of society (~2%) decide what to produce, where to produce it, and how to distribute any surplus:


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 13, 2022)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> 2 maybe 3?


2-3 innocent individuals killed by Koch pollution?
Prove it.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jan 13, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> 2-3 innocent individuals killed by Koch pollution?
> Prove it.



Prove it was more.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jan 13, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> *Make sure you bomb one half of the country into oblivion AFTER you deny free elections peninsula-wide in 1945.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The commies in North Korea have had nearly 70 years of superior commie economics plus help from their commie friends in Russia and China and North Korea is still a commie shithole?
Impossible!!!
Their per capita GDP has to be double, maybe triple that of the US, because communism
stops the rich people from exploiting the poor people. Plus, communism doesn't have profits
or secondary markets, so the workers get all the benefits. Right?


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 13, 2022)

dblack said:


> Majority rule can certainly be totalitarian. And if you think majority rule should be applied to everything, that's exactly what you're asking for.







Can you name a totalitarian state that concerned itself with majority rule and/or minority rights?


----------



## dblack (Jan 13, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> Can you name a totalitarian state that concerned itself with majority rule and/or minority rights?


Can you go a day without posting commie propaganda?

The majority isn't always right. You're a fool if you believe they are.


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 13, 2022)

dblack said:


> Define private tyranny.


Creating the Horror Chambers: Noam Chomsky on the tyranny of libertarianism, the need for media democracy, and Latin American resistance to US imperialism




"Libertarianism has a special meaning predominantly in the United States. 

"In the United States, it means dedication to extreme forms of tyranny. 

*"They don’t call it that, but it’s basically corporate tyranny, meaning tyranny by unaccountable private concentrations of power, the worst kind of tyranny you can imagine.*"


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 13, 2022)

Flash said:


> Just like a fucking Marxist to condemn the US for liberating South Korea from the Communists. And to ignore the fact that Capitalist SK has a booming democratic economy while Socialist NK is an authoritarian oppressive third world shithole.


Just like an ignorant capitalist to whitewash US aggression in Korea.

There would be no North or South Korea today if the US military had not prevented free elections on that peninsula in 1945, five years before NK attempted to liberate SK from an American-installed dictator.
DECEMBER 31, 2002
A Pop Quiz on Korea​6. In August 1945 defeated Japanese forces formally turned over authority in Korea to the broad-based Committee for the Preparation of Korean Independence, led by Lyuh Woon-hyung, which in September proclaimed the Korean People’s Republic (KPR). When U.S. forces under Gen. Reed Hodge arrived in Inchon to accept the Japanese surrender, they



> *"a. ordered all Japanese officials to remain in their posts, refused to recognize Lyuh as national leader, and soon banned all public reference to the KPR*
> b. recognized Lyuh as the legitimate head of state
> c. negotiated with Lyuh to facilitate swift attainment of independence of a united Korea"


----------



## dblack (Jan 13, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> "They don’t call it that, but it’s basically corporate tyranny, meaning tyranny by unaccountable private concentrations of power, the worst kind of tyranny you can imagine."


I can imagine far worse tyranny (eg the socialist hell hole you jerk off to).

You steadfastly refuse to acknowledge that government power is radically different that economic power. Until you at least acknowledge that, I'll continue to simply laugh at you.

And you won't. You'll stick your head right back up your ass and fill your daily quota of propaganda posts.


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 13, 2022)

Flash said:


> Capitalist SK has a booming democratic economy while Socialist NK is an authoritarian oppressive third world shithole.


Capitalist SK has a slave/master relationship with the Greatest Purveyor of Violence in the World. SK is rewarded for its slave status while NK is crippled by sanctions and demonized as the aggressor.


----------



## bripat9643 (Jan 13, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> Government has been captured by business interests which profit from mismanagement and criminal fraud which is guaranteed to happen when a miniscule percentage of society (~2%) decide what to produce, where to produce it, and how to distribute any surplus:


Yeah, I know, private corporations are the ones who are really running the show, not the ones with the guns and the legal authority to use them.


----------



## bripat9643 (Jan 13, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> Capitalist SK has a slave/master relationship with the Greatest Purveyor of Violence in the World. SK is rewarded for its slave status while NK is crippled by sanctions and demonized as the aggressor.


The greatest purveyor of violence in the world is the US government.  Those are the people you are always telling us we should put in charge of running our lives.


----------



## bripat9643 (Jan 13, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> Definition of tyranny | Dictionary.com
> 
> "noun, plural tyr·an·nies.
> arbitrary or unrestrained exercise of power; despotic abuse of authority.
> ...


Right, like I said, it can only exist when people can arrest you.  Your source agrees.


----------



## bripat9643 (Jan 13, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> Just like an ignorant capitalist to whitewash US aggression in Korea.
> 
> There would be no North or South Korea today if the US military had not prevented free elections on that peninsula in 1945, five years before NK attempted to liberate SK from an American-installed dictator.
> DECEMBER 31, 2002



Right.  It would be one huge gulag.  Any election which Communist are partly responsible for conducting will be a fraud.



georgephillip said:


> A Pop Quiz on Korea​6. In August 1945 defeated Japanese forces formally turned over authority in Korea to the broad-based Committee for the Preparation of Korean Independence, led by Lyuh Woon-hyung, which in September proclaimed the Korean People’s Republic (KPR). When U.S. forces under Gen. Reed Hodge arrived in Inchon to accept the Japanese surrender, they



In other words, they turned it over to a communist.  So Japan decided who would government North Korea.  Now we understand why it's such a cruel shithole.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jan 13, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> There would be no North or South Korea today if the US military had not prevented free elections on that peninsula in 1945, five years before NK attempted to liberate SK from an American-installed dictator.



The entire peninsula would be a commie shithole today, instead of just the north.


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 14, 2022)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> And that was the worst part, eh comrade?







"As of December 18, 2021, more than 800,00 Americans had died due to Covid-19 epidemic..."
JANUARY 13, 2022
Profits Over People: Why Weren’t the Vaccine Manufacturers Nationalized?​"On January 20, 2021, the day Trump left office, 392,641 people had died of Covid; as of December 18, 2021, 411,359 people died during the first 11 months of Biden presidency – and Biden has another three years in office."
*
How many more Americans will die for Big Pharma profits?*


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jan 14, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> How many more Americans will die for Big Pharma profits?



How's that commie vaccine in Cuba coming along? Any day now, eh comrade?


----------



## Ringo (Jan 14, 2022)

In the USSR, workers have proved that they can live perfectly well without capitalists, but no capitalist has proved that he can live without workers.


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 14, 2022)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> What about pensions at firms that collapsed that weren't bought by private equity firms?


*Greedy pigs always need more.*

"Workers’ retirement savings aren’t usually thought of as a stimulating topic. But we should pay closer attention, because public pensions are a key way for Wall Street to steal wealth from workers and hoard it for themselves."

Wall Street Takes Workers’ Retirement Money and Uses It Against Them


----------



## dblack (Jan 14, 2022)

Ringo said:


> In the USSR, workers have proved that they can live perfectly well without capitalists, but no capitalist has proved that he can live without workers.


Those were the days, eh comrade?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jan 14, 2022)

Ringo said:


> In the USSR, workers have proved that they can live perfectly well without capitalists



Exactly!

Who cares if they had the standard of living of a third-world shithole, eh comrade?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jan 14, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> *Greedy pigs always need more.*
> 
> "Workers’ retirement savings aren’t usually thought of as a stimulating topic. But we should pay closer attention, because public pensions are a key way for Wall Street to steal wealth from workers and hoard it for themselves."
> 
> Wall Street Takes Workers’ Retirement Money and Uses It Against Them



Public pensions are driving Illinois into bankruptcy.


----------



## bripat9643 (Jan 15, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> *Greedy pigs always need more.*
> 
> "Workers’ retirement savings aren’t usually thought of as a stimulating topic. But we should pay closer attention, because public pensions are a key way for Wall Street to steal wealth from workers and hoard it for themselves."
> 
> Wall Street Takes Workers’ Retirement Money and Uses It Against Them


That;'s the reason we did away with pensions and switched to 401Ks, moron.  Buy all you leftwing morons whine about them as well.


----------



## Ringo (Jan 16, 2022)

Why in the world of capitalism, actors' pay goes beyond reasonable, and their high fees are often incomparable to the labor spent. Because they are paid such money not so much for talent, but as much for advertising a capitalist lifestyle. 
This practice is now spreading to bloggers, the vast majority of whom are exceptionally incompetent - a sign of the final collapse.


----------



## Woodznutz (Jan 16, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> Human labor made America.
> Capitalism exploits labor by  privatizing profit and socializing cost.


Labor is the primary expression of Capitalism.


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 17, 2022)

Ringo said:


> Why in the world of capitalism, actors' pay goes beyond reasonable, and their high fees are often incomparable to the labor spent. Because they are paid such money not so much for talent, but as much for advertising a capitalist lifestyle.


  People who prosper by saying anything they are paid to say would seem to be very useful to capitalism? I suppose there's an artistic distinction between Shakespeare and Shakey's, but most actors today are there for the money.


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 17, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> Labor is the primary expression of Capitalism.


Almost.
Exploitation of labor in pursuit of accumulating more capital is the primary expression of capitalism.




Notes on Marx’s “General Law of Capitalist Accumulation” | MR Online


----------



## Woodznutz (Jan 17, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> Almost.
> Exploitation of labor in pursuit of accumulating more capital is the primary expression of capitalism.
> 
> 
> ...


I've been "exploited" all of my working life, and I'm doing ok. It's not how much you earn, it's how you spend it.


----------



## bripat9643 (Jan 17, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> Almost.
> Exploitation of labor in pursuit of accumulating more capital is the primary expression of capitalism.
> 
> 
> ...


Do you believe spouting Communist dogma makes you more credible?


----------



## Ringo (Jan 17, 2022)

Capitalism does not reward hard work it rewards extracting surplus value from other peoples hard work at a mass scale.


----------



## Ringo (Jan 17, 2022)




----------



## bripat9643 (Jan 17, 2022)

Ringo said:


> Capitalism does not reward hard work it rewards extracting surplus value from other peoples hard work at a mass scale.


When did you join the communist party?   Not getting ahead at the office?


----------



## initforme (Jan 17, 2022)

Nobody forces anyone to work for someone else. When employers have difficulties finding workers that is a huge positive.


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 17, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> I've been "exploited" all of my working life, and I'm doing ok. It's not how much you earn, it's how you spend it.


How does your level of debt today compare to when you began your working life?




Infographic: Driven by Mortgages, U.S. Household Debt Hits New High


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 17, 2022)

bripat9643 said:


> Do you believe spouting Communist dogma makes you more credible?


*Do you believe Ignorance sets you Free?*

"Marx knew in the 1860s that 'the absolute' general law of capitalist accumulation could be 'modified in its workings by many circumstances.' 

"But in every case, he says, it '*followed that in proportion as capital accumulates, the situation of the worker, be their payment high or low, must grow worse.' *

"In our present-day 'neoliberal' context, the economy flourishes through sub-employed and over-employed workers, through contingent and gig economy workers, through zero contract hours workers: from Uber to Deliveroo, Handy to Hermes, Amazon to Adjunct Professors, *work is evermore casualised and irregular; and worker benefits seem to diminish by day. *

"Toilers here assume that category Marx reckons the general law of capitalist accumulation progressively produces: “a relative surplus population'—or, alternatively, 'an industrial reserve army of labour.'"


----------



## dblack (Jan 17, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> How does your ...


----------



## Woodznutz (Jan 17, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> How does your level of debt today compare to when you began your working life?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


'Debt to equity' is the important figure.

As one gets older debt should decrease and wealth (equity) should increase. Most of the wealth is owned by us oldsters, as it should be.


----------



## Woodznutz (Jan 17, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> *Do you believe Ignorance sets you Free?*
> 
> "Marx knew in the 1860s that 'the absolute' general law of capitalist accumulation could be 'modified in its workings by many circumstances.'
> 
> ...


That Marxist baloney is outdated. Today the worker can easily succeed,* IF* he chooses to.


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 17, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> That Marxist baloney is outdated. Today the worker can easily succeed,* IF* he chooses to.


*US Workers find it much harder today to advance economically compared to the so-called Golden Age of Capitalism from 1945-1980.*

Global Social Mobility Index - Wikipedia

"The *Global Social Mobility Index* is an index prepared by the World Economic Forum in the Global Social Mobility report. The Index measures the intergenerational social mobility in different countries in relation to socioeconomic outcomes. The inaugural index ranked 82 countries."

*The US places 27th sandwiched between Lithuania and Spain.*


----------



## dblack (Jan 17, 2022)

Ringo said:


> Capitalism does not reward hard work it rewards extracting surplus value from other peoples hard work at a mass scale.


What kind of twisted mind fuck is "extracting surplus value"? I smell a con.


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 17, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> 'Debt to equity' is the important figure.
> 
> As one gets older debt should decrease and wealth (equity) should increase. Most of the wealth is owned by us oldsters, as it should be.


It sounds like we are both Boomers.

Equality of opportunity (for White males) was much greater 50 to 60 years ago than it is today. 

We began working when American capitalism was industrial in nature; today finance capitalism has become dominant by hollowing out the US middle class. 

Young people today start their working lives with so much debt that owning a home and starting a family have largely become historical artifacts. 

Marx was right:


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jan 17, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> Young people today start their working lives with so much debt that owning a home and starting a family have largely become historical artifacts.



*Yeah, the Dems really fucked up college.*

What are they going to "fix" next?


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## georgephillip (Jan 17, 2022)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> *Yeah, the Dems really fucked up college.*
> 
> What are they going to "fix" next?


Will you visit?


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## bripat9643 (Jan 17, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> *Do you believe Ignorance sets you Free?*
> 
> "Marx knew in the 1860s that 'the absolute' general law of capitalist accumulation could be 'modified in its workings by many circumstances.'



How can you "know" something that isn't true?  There is no general law of capitalist accumulation.



georgephillip said:


> "But in every case, he says, it '*followed that in proportion as capital accumulates, the situation of the worker, be their payment high or low, must grow worse.' *
> 
> "In our present-day 'neoliberal' context, the economy flourishes through sub-employed and over-employed workers, through contingent and gig economy workers, through zero contract hours workers: from Uber to Deliveroo, Handy to Hermes, Amazon to Adjunct Professors, *work is evermore casualised and irregular; and worker benefits seem to diminish by day. *
> 
> "Toilers here assume that category Marx reckons the general law of capitalist accumulation progressively produces: “a relative surplus population'—or, alternatively, 'an industrial reserve army of labour.'"



Knowing stuff that's total horseshit doesn't make you knowledgeable.


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## Ringo (Jan 19, 2022)

Extremist!
But I'm sure he won't succeed. 150 years ago it was proved that the greed of the capitalist is stronger than his sense of self-preservation


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## Woodznutz (Jan 19, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> *US Workers find it much harder today to advance economically compared to the so-called Golden Age of Capitalism from 1945-1980.*
> 
> Global Social Mobility Index - Wikipedia
> 
> ...


The siren song of 'get-rich-quick-without-getting-hands-dirty-by-going-to-college' hollowed out the working class allowing immigrants to fill the void. Prior to that Americans did those jobs. Our colleges are filled with kids that have no business being there while jobs they would be successful at are being done by immigrants. This combined with easy credit and expanded student loans have destroyed the future for many.


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## Woodznutz (Jan 19, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> It sounds like we are both Boomers.
> 
> Equality of opportunity (for White males) was much greater 50 to 60 years ago than it is today.
> 
> ...


I wasted a lot of money starting out. Kids today are no different. They spend when they should be saving.

I was shocked when I discovered that a classmate of mine in high school, who everyone believed was going on to college, along with his brother bought the apartment building that my brother was living in as well as another next door (that's how I found out). This just a couple of years out of high school.  While I, and most of my friends, were struggling to pay rent and make car payments, he and his brother were building a rental real estate business.


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## dblack (Jan 19, 2022)

Ringo said:


>


I dare say you've stumbled onto the core of Marxist ideology. Fear, envy, and violence, ftw!


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## georgephillip (Jan 19, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> The siren song of 'get-rich-quick-without-getting-hands-dirty-by-going-to-college' hollowed out the working class allowing immigrants to fill the void. Prior to that Americans did those jobs.


*Neoliberal economics hollowed out the US middle class after FDR's New Deal and the GI Bill created the biggest such economic cohort in world history.*





"The gap between the rich and poor has risen dramatically since the 1980s. Real inflation-adjusted income to the Middle Class has been almost completely flat for decades. 

"The poverty rate has increased significantly since the early-2000s. And the Labor Force Participation Rate has been falling and is at its lowest level in recorded history."

Neoliberal Case Study: The United States - Gini Foundation


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## georgephillip (Jan 19, 2022)

Woodznutz said:


> I was shocked when I discovered that a classmate of mine in high school, who everyone believed was going on to college, along with his brother bought the apartment building that my brother was living in as well as another next door (that's how I found out). This just a couple of years out of high school


I knew of someone similar when I left high school in 1965. Bruce had been a varsity wrestler as a sophomore who gave that up to work for a local nursery. Over the next two years he made so much money he bought a great car and left for USC. 

The last I heard he was finishing a PhD and embarking on a business career. The cost of living and doing business was so much lower 60 years ago that such a "success" story was possible; I'm not sure that's still a viable career path today, and I don't see any way your neighbors would find enough hours in their days (or start-up money) to compete against Black Rock Rentals today.


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## georgephillip (Jan 19, 2022)

bripat9643 said:


> Because A tyranny can only exist when people can arrest you, moron.







The corporate state came for human rights lawyer Steven Donziger — and we're next


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## Woodznutz (Jan 19, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> I knew of someone similar when I left high school in 1965. Bruce had been a varsity wrestler as a sophomore who gave that up to work for a local nursery. Over the next two years he made so much money he bought a great car and left for USC.
> 
> The last I heard he was finishing a PhD and embarking on a business career. The cost of living and doing business was so much lower 60 years ago that such a "success" story was possible; I'm not sure that's still a viable career path today, and I don't see any way your neighbors would find enough hours in their days (or start-up money) to compete against Black Rock Rentals today.
> View attachment 590176


It certainly can be done today, it just takes longer (what's the rush anyway?).


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## dblack (Jan 19, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> The corporate state came for human rights lawyer Steven Donziger — and we're next


Hmmm... none of them are carrying guns or handcuffs. If they want to arrest me, they're welcome to try.  

Guess you're just full of shit. LOL - I'm kidding, of course. I _know_ you're full of shit.


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## Woodznutz (Jan 19, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> *Neoliberal economics hollowed out the US middle class after FDR's New Deal and the GI Bill created the biggest such economic cohort in world history.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Workers should save more instead of rushing to buy every new shiny object that those rich people produce. They might also take better care of their health.


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## georgephillip (Jan 19, 2022)

dblack said:


> ajority rule can certainly be totalitarian. And if you think majority rule should be applied to everything, that's exactly what you're asking for.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarian_democracy#:~:text=A%20totalitarian%20democratic%20state%20is,good%22)%20and%20majority%20rule.

"A totalitarian democratic state is said to maximize its control over the lives of its citizens by using the dual rationale of general will (i.e., 'public good') and majority rule. 

"An argument can be made that in some circumstances it is actually the political, economic, and military élite who interpret the general will to suit their own interests."

*I suppose the white majority in Jim Crow Dixie felt segregation was a "public good."*


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## georgephillip (Jan 19, 2022)

dblack said:


> Define private tyranny.


*Chomsky's definition works for me*.

On "Private Tyrannies" | Ben O'Neill

"Chomsky goes on to cite with approval the work of political economist Robert Brady who states,



> Within the corporation all policies emanate from the control above. In the union of this power to determine policy with the execution thereof, all authority necessarily proceeds from the top to the bottom and all responsibility from the bottom to the top. This is, of course, the inverse of "democratic" control; _it follows the structural conditions of dictatorial power_."


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## dblack (Jan 19, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarian_democracy#:~:text=A%20totalitarian%20democratic%20state%20is,good%22)%20and%20majority%20rule.
> 
> "A totalitarian democratic state is said to maximize its control over the lives of its citizens by using the dual rationale of general will (i.e., 'public good') and majority rule.
> 
> ...


It's hard to tell what your point is - always your goal - but it seems you're simply agreeing with me.


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## dblack (Jan 19, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> Chomsky's definition works for me.


Not me. Like you, he doesn't grasp the difference between economic power and state coercion.


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## georgephillip (Jan 19, 2022)

bripat9643 said:


> What you mean is that the firms went bankrupt and therefore couldn't pay their pensions. That's why U.S. firms went to 401Ks


*So what?*


"The rearchers say part of the trouble is that many employers that offer 401(k) plans to their workers are outgunned by financial firms that sell them bad plans loaded with hefty fees. 

*"That's especially true, they say, for small and midsize employers that don't have much financial expertise in-house."*


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jan 19, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> *So what?*
> 
> 
> "The rearchers say part of the trouble is that many employers that offer 401(k) plans to their workers are outgunned by financial firms that sell them bad plans loaded with hefty fees.
> ...



They should ask me, I'll be happy to help.


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## georgephillip (Jan 21, 2022)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> About 60 million


How did capitalism's shock therapy affect Russian life spans?


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## georgephillip (Jan 21, 2022)

Flash said:


> View attachment 578228


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## Flash (Jan 21, 2022)

georgephillip said:


>




You are a moron.


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## bripat9643 (Jan 21, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> How did capitalism's shock therapy affect Russian life spans?


How is capitalism responsible for that?  Russia is now operating under crony capitalism.  That isn't real capitalism.


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## bripat9643 (Jan 21, 2022)

georgephillip said:


>


Commie propaganda.


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## Ringo (Jan 21, 2022)

Capitalism is increasingly saturated with evil. In its upper strata, there was an oversaturation of filth. The essence of the moment is that leaders who support the public good have disappeared as a phenomenon. The game of the two elements of the "market" - greed and fear - has accumulated quantity, and has moved into a new quality


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## Flash (Jan 22, 2022)




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## bripat9643 (Jan 22, 2022)

Ringo said:


> Capitalism is increasingly saturated with evil. In its upper strata, there was an oversaturation of filth. The essence of the moment is that leaders who support the public good have disappeared as a phenomenon. The game of the two elements of the "market" - greed and fear - has accumulated quantity, and has moved into a new quality


Pure idiocy.  Try accompanying your horseshit with some actual supporting evidence.


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## dblack (Jan 22, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> How did capitalism's shock therapy affect Russian life spans?


Who gives a shit?


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## bripat9643 (Jan 22, 2022)

dblack said:


> Who gives a shit?


George believe Americans are obligated to make Russia do capitalism right.


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## Ringo (Jan 23, 2022)

All this "bourgeois conservative" public is rushing with wide-closed eyes between three pines. They sincerely do not understand that it is not the bad liberal elite that leads them to the gay pride parade, but capitalism itself, the logic of its development. Uber liberalism in finance, life, family. All the troubles are from misunderstanding


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## Ringo (Jan 23, 2022)

1. The bourgeois revolution is over when private capital snatches the right to print the national currency.
2. WWI, apparently, was a battle of the Anglo-Saxon parasitic model of financial capital with the German "industrial" one. Financial capital won.
3. In capitalism, the most parasitic elite inevitably wins
4. When parasites realize that persuading the masses no longer works, they hide from the masses behind fascist stormtroopers


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jan 23, 2022)

Ringo said:


> The bourgeois revolution is over when private capital snatches the right to print the national currency.



Where does private capital print the national currency?


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## georgephillip (Jan 24, 2022)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Commies taxed the people 100%. How well did that work?


How many billionaires did the commies have?


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jan 24, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> How many billionaires did the commies have?



Billionaires? They couldn't even build a decent car or feed their own people.


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## bripat9643 (Jan 24, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> How many billionaires did the commies have?


Officially, none.  

You believe that's a good thing?

You're an idiot.


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## georgephillip (Jan 24, 2022)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> The best definition of "ignorant of economic history" is anyone today still in favor of communism.


Tell me where communism has ever been practiced, Rich-Bitch.


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## georgephillip (Jan 24, 2022)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Billionaires? They couldn't even build a decent car or feed their own people.


What happened to life expectancy in Russia when Capitalism arrived?


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jan 24, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> Tell me where communism has ever been practiced, Rich-Bitch.



It's never been tried before?

Is that because the commies were too stupid to know what they were doing? DURR


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jan 24, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> What happened to life expectancy in Russia when Capitalism arrived?



Did the commies fuck up capitalism too? Damn, they're even dumber than you are........


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## georgephillip (Jan 24, 2022)

bripat9643 said:


> How did it do that?


*Patents*.

Rockefeller - Facing the Corporate Roots of American Fascism

"In 1932, Chevron struck oil in Bahrain and was soon operating in Saudi Arabia. In 1933, when Hitler seized power, *Standard Oil New Jersey supplied Germany with the patents it required for tetraethyl lead aviation fuel. *

"In 1936, the company Schroder, Rockefeller Investment Bankers, included board directors linked to the Gestapo and several European, Nazi-linked banks. 

"It’s lawyers were John Foster Dulles and Allan Dulles, leading Wall Street fascists who drummed up American investments in Germany and elsewhere. 

"The Dulles law firm represented I.G. Farben and Fritz Thyssen. Thyssen was Hitler’s biggest German financier. 

*"The Dulles brothers later became Secretary of State and CIA Director, respectively."*


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jan 24, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> *Patents*.
> 
> Rockefeller - Facing the Corporate Roots of American Fascism
> 
> ...



Stalin was sending Hitler supplies up until the day he invaded. LOL!


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## georgephillip (Jan 24, 2022)

bripat9643 said:


> It has no such powers, moron.


Tell Steven Donziger, Rube.




The corporate state came for human rights lawyer Steven Donziger — and we're next.


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## georgephillip (Jan 24, 2022)

bripat9643 said:


> You said private corporations control the government. Now your admitting it's the other way around.


I said democracy is the only way of controlling corporate excess.
Obviously, corporations control government in this country.


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## bripat9643 (Jan 24, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> I said democracy is the only way of controlling corporate excess.
> Obviously, corporations control government in this country.


Obviously, they don't.  Government has guns.  Guns beat money every time.

Who controls democratic excess?   Who controls the mob?


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## Ringo (Jan 25, 2022)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Stalin was sending Hitler supplies up until the day he invaded. LOL!


In response, the USSR received very important industrial products, for example, machine tools, which then worked throughout the war against nazies. 
By the way, some very big US companies continued to trade with Germany even after the outbreak of the war, up to D-day through neutrals. Very patriotic!


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## Ringo (Jan 25, 2022)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Where does private capital print the national currency?


In USA


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jan 25, 2022)

Ringo said:


> In USA



Be more specific.


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## bripat9643 (Jan 25, 2022)

Ringo said:


> In response, the USSR received very important industrial products, for example, machine tools, which then worked throughout the war against nazies.
> By the way, some very big US companies continued to trade with Germany even after the outbreak of the war, up to D-day through neutrals. Very patriotic!


That sounds like pure horseshit.  Can you document it?


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## bripat9643 (Jan 25, 2022)

Ringo said:


> In USA


Wrong.   Government prints it, moron.


----------



## Ringo (Jan 25, 2022)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Be more specific.


Federal Reserve System


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jan 25, 2022)

Ringo said:


> Federal Reserve System



The Fed isn't private capital.


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 26, 2022)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> You have the same opportunity to buy, you just can't buy the same amount.


With less money comes less opportunity to buy.


----------



## georgephillip (Jan 26, 2022)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Yes, individuals respond to incentives.


What's the incentive for greed?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Jan 26, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> With less money comes less opportunity to buy.



You can buy with $100.....you can buy with $1,000,000.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jan 26, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> What's the incentive for greed?



You tell me.


----------



## bripat9643 (Jan 26, 2022)

georgephillip said:


> What's the incentive for greed?


You get the prize for the dumbest question ever asked in this forum.


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## Ringo (Jan 28, 2022)

Under capitalism, children are taught from an early age about the need for success, and not about the pursuit of happiness. As a result, when they grow up, they are eager to exchange a full life for a shaky sense of superiority. In pursuit of this chimera, the absolute majority burns down. The result of their life is disappointment.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jan 28, 2022)

Ringo said:


> Under capitalism, children are taught from an early age about the need for success, and not about the pursuit of happiness.



Under communism, children are taught from an early age about the impossibility of success, and how to live with unhappiness.


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## bripat9643 (Jan 28, 2022)

Ringo said:


> Under capitalism, children are taught from an early age about the need for success, and not about the pursuit of happiness. As a result, when they grow up, they are eager to exchange a full life for a shaky sense of superiority. In pursuit of this chimera, the absolute majority burns down. The result of their life is disappointment.


None of your claims can be proven, dumbfuck.


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## dblack (Jan 28, 2022)

Circling back to the topic, I couldn't agree more. Capitalism is NOT democratic - it doesn't work on the premise of "majority rules". Likewise Democracy isn't "capitalistic". The OP has correctly distinguished between two largely unrelated nouns, and has proven that Democracy ≠ Capitalism. A a stunning achievement, a rhetorical triumph, a pronouncement for the ages.


----------

