# Images of Africa



## Saigon

Away from the poverty and starvation we often see on our TV screens, Africa can be stunningly beautiful, and it always saddens me we don't see more of that side of the continent. 

It is poor, it can be dangerous, but it is also a continent of immense diversity (and 51 countries), hope, life and generosity.

I have been lucky enough to travel the continent widely, and particularly to spend time far out in the wilds around the wildlife. Click on the images to see them full size. 

Here are a few of my favourite pictues of the continent, from Namibia, South Africa, Swaziland, Rwanda, DR Congo and Botswana. 

Climbing Mt Nyiragongo, DR Congo, and the worlds largest lava lake

















Rwanda mountain gorillas:








Namibia, Botswana and South Africa's Kruger.


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## Katzndogz

I love Africa.  I have an entire series of paintings that I did of Africa.   I just sold a giclee to a bank of one of my paintings.   I did an exhibition of paintings of Africa for Black History month and they decided to keep one.

This one.


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## Mr. H.

Damn, you two are talented. 

Hey Saigon, the dead tree photo is my fave.


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## old navy

I love Africa and her people. With the right leadership and effort, she could be the gem of the world.


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## Katzndogz

old navy said:


> I love Africa and her people. With the right leadership and effort, she could be the gem of the world.



True, but the leadership was thrown out in favor of black despots.


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## Unkotare

Katzndogz said:


> I love Africa.  I have an entire series of paintings that I did of Africa.   I just sold a giclee to a bank of one of my paintings.   I did an exhibition of paintings of Africa for Black History month and they decided to keep one.





How long were you in Africa?


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## ScienceRocks

The animals are amazing and there's plenty of resources to create a great civilization or two, but its people aren't capable of taking advantage of it. Sadly.


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## Saigon

Matthew said:


> The animals are amazing and there's plenty of resources to create a great civilization or two, but its people aren't capable of taking advantage of it. Sadly.



You can't making a sweeping generalisation about 51 countries - and I'm amazed you try.


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## Saigon

Mr. H. said:


> Damn, you two are talented.
> 
> Hey Saigon, the dead tree photo is my fave.




Thanks Mr H - it's from Sossusvlei in Namibia - a place of absolutelly staggering beauty - if you like your beauty harsh and sandy!


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## Saigon

Katzndogz said:


> I love Africa.  I have an entire series of paintings that I did of Africa.   I just sold a giclee to a bank of one of my paintings.   I did an exhibition of paintings of Africa for Black History month and they decided to keep one.
> 
> This one.



This is a beautiful image - I can see why the bank bought it!



> True, but the leadership was thrown out in favor of black despots.



But this is a terrible thing to say - keep in mind that Portugal alone took 4.65 million slaves from Africa and you might want to consider how good European leadership was for Africa.

Belgian rule in the Congo saw the population fall by 20% due to murder and imposed starvation - hardly what I look for in good government.


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## Mr. H.

Saigon said:


> Mr. H. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Damn, you two are talented.
> 
> Hey Saigon, the dead tree photo is my fave.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Mr H - it's from Sossusvlei in Namibia - a place of absolutelly staggering beauty - if you like your beauty harsh and sandy!
Click to expand...


Oh there's enough sandy beauty here at USMB. 
Some ugly too.


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## Katzndogz

Saigon said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> I love Africa.  I have an entire series of paintings that I did of Africa.   I just sold a giclee to a bank of one of my paintings.   I did an exhibition of paintings of Africa for Black History month and they decided to keep one.
> 
> This one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a beautiful image - I can see why the bank bought it!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> True, but the leadership was thrown out in favor of black despots.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But this is a terrible thing to say - keep in mind that Portugal alone took 4.65 million slaves from Africa and you might want to consider how good European leadership was for Africa.
> 
> Belgian rule in the Congo saw the population fall by 20% due to murder and imposed starvation - hardly what I look for in good government.
Click to expand...


Nothing has been worse for the Africans than black leadership.   As bad as white rule was, and it was bad, it was never as bad as black leadership.  Genocidal wars, mass starvation due to the destruction of the farmland and livestock, followed by attacks on aid convoys and theft of supplies.   If Belgian rule in the Congo reduced the population by 20%, what did the Hutu/Tutsi war do?   Zimbabwe was turned from the most fertile fields on the continent to starvation by Robert Mugabe.

There should have been a better solution for Africa to remove capricious white rule than to turn it over to the unimaginable cruelty of black leadership.


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## Unkotare

How long were you in Africa?


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## Saigon

Katzndogz said:


> Nothing has been worse for the Africans than black leadership.   As bad as white rule was, and it was bad, it was never as bad as black leadership. .



Right. 

So the 20% of Congolese who died under Belgian rule should be thankful.

The 4.65 million Africans shipped as slaves by the Portugese should be happy they were taken. 

The millions who suffered oppression under apartheid should want it back. 

Really, man, this couldn't be much siller. 

Of the countries you refer to, I think only Zimbabwe was genuinely better off before Mugabe, but there is no reason it can not be a wealthy country in future once he has gone. People in a dozen other African countries (Angola, Rwanda, Ghana, Namibia, Botwsana. Mozambique) are far better off now than they were under European rule. 


btw. The Hutu/Tutsi war was in Rwanda, not Congo (altough it did spill over into neighbouring Kivu provinces)


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## Katzndogz

Saigon said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing has been worse for the Africans than black leadership.   As bad as white rule was, and it was bad, it was never as bad as black leadership. .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Right.
> 
> So the 20% of Congolese who died under Belgian rule should be thankful.
> 
> The 4.65 million Africans shipped as slaves by the Portugese should be happy they were taken.
> 
> The millions who suffered oppression under apartheid should want it back.
> 
> Really, man, this couldn't be much siller.
> 
> Of the countries you refer to, I think only Zimbabwe was genuinely better off before Mugabe, but there is no reason it can not be a wealthy country in future once he has gone. People in a dozen other African countries (Angola, Rwanda, Ghana, Namibia, Botwsana. Mozambique) are far better off now than they were under European rule.
> 
> 
> btw. The Hutu/Tutsi war was in Rwanda, not Congo (altough it did spill over into neighbouring Kivu provinces)
Click to expand...


The ones taken as slaves were certainly more fortunate than those left behind.  At least according to Muhammad Ali who went to Africa observed and said he was glad his great great granddaddy got on the boat.  

The Hutu/Tutsi war happened in Rwanda, Africa. A country that you say is now better off.  Africa is torn apart by factions fighting one another.   The continent lives on the cusp of war for some reason or other.  The countries that have advanced to being marginal, have done so because of a heavy UN influence.   In Nigeria there's Boko Haram.  In Uganda it's Shahab.   At any moment the next collapse could happen and it could happen anywhere because there is no African leadership.   Where African's are marginally better off than they were under the rule of the white Belgians, Dutch and Afrikkans it's because they are wards of the largely white United Nations.   White agencies that use their stewardship to siphon off fortunes for themselves and leave the Africans only slightly better off than they were before.

Unfortunately each African leader who gets in a position of leadership uses that position to fill French bank accounts while the people STILL have to stand in line at UN feeding stations.  The Congo has been a Marxist/Leninist dictatorship since 1968.

I feel terribly for the African people who are worth so much more than what they got from anyone, including their own.


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## Saigon

Katzndogz said:


> The ones taken as slaves were certainly more fortunate than those left behind.



I don't think anything more needs to be added to this statement, really. This really is one of the breathtaking claims I have ever seen made on a discussion forum.

I think the thing you are forgetting is that there are 51 countries in Africa. At anyone time one of those countries will likely be having a coup or a war or a famine, and certainly a half dozen will be suffering bad government, but so they will also in Asia and South America. 

Many other countries in Africa will be doing well, and I mentioned a dozen earlier that are doing well. I will add that Rwanda is doing extremely well these days - it's just thriving. The Congo has been a democracy since 2003 - and as a dictatorship, it was installed and backed by the US - not the UN.


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## Artevelde

Saigon said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> The ones taken as slaves were certainly more fortunate than those left behind.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think anything more needs to be added to this statement, really. This really is one of the breathtaking claims I have ever seen made on a discussion forum.
> 
> I think the thing you are forgetting is that there are 51 countries in Africa. At anyone time one of those countries will likely be having a coup or a war or a famine, and certainly a half dozen will be suffering bad government, but so they will also in Asia and South America.
> 
> Many other countries in Africa will be doing well, and I mentioned a dozen earlier that are doing well. I will add that Rwanda is doing extremely well these days - it's just thriving. The Congo has been a democracy since 2003 - and as a dictatorship, it was installed and backed by the US - not the UN.
Click to expand...


Rwanda is a dictatorship. And claiming that Congo is a democracy is simply funny. It hardly exists as a country anymore (in part thanks to Rwanda).


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## Artevelde

Saigon said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing has been worse for the Africans than black leadership.   As bad as white rule was, and it was bad, it was never as bad as black leadership. .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Right.
> 
> So the 20% of Congolese who died under Belgian rule should be thankful.
> 
> The 4.65 million Africans shipped as slaves by the Portugese should be happy they were taken.
> 
> The millions who suffered oppression under apartheid should want it back.
> 
> Really, man, this couldn't be much siller.
> 
> Of the countries you refer to, I think only Zimbabwe was genuinely better off before Mugabe, but there is no reason it can not be a wealthy country in future once he has gone. People in a dozen other African countries (Angola, Rwanda, Ghana, Namibia, Botwsana. Mozambique) are far better off now than they were under European rule.
> 
> 
> btw. The Hutu/Tutsi war was in Rwanda, not Congo (altough it did spill over into neighbouring Kivu provinces)
Click to expand...


Just another illustration of how much of a fraud you are.


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## Douger

Remove all food,medical aid and multi-national corporations(employment) and lets let them show the world what they've got !
They'll be on the endangered species list in less than two decades.


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## Katzndogz

If Rwanda is thriving today, it is certainly a stretch for the definition of thriving.

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

DRC refugees head to Rwanda fleeing latest unrest

Designed to take a maximum of 5,400 people, Nkamira now holds 12,000, crammed into a former dairy and under tents supplied by the UN refugee agency

ON the hillside hundreds of people are felling trees and flattening the ground to make space for new tents, while others are hanging up their washing. Kigeme camp in southern Rwanda, which for a long time housed Burundian refugees, reopened on June 10 to take in some of those fleeing a new wave of unrest in neighbouring Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC). 

Two weeks later it is already home to some 2,500 people. &#8220;We&#8217;ve speeded up the work on the camp,&#8221; the official in charge of Kigeme, Emmanuel Niyibaho, said. The refugees are arriving from Nkamira transit centre in northern Rwanda, which has been completely overwhelmed by the latest refugee influx.

Most of those who have fled this time around say they were being persecuted because they speak Kinyarwanda, the language spoken in neighbouring Rwanda. Many complain of being preyed on by soldiers of the regular Congolese army, whom they accuse of raping and looting, on the grounds that they are from the same ethnic group as the mutineers.

The figure behind the mutiny - although he denies it - is Bosco Ntaganda, a former rebel who was integrated into the Congolese army in early 2009. A Tutsi, Ntaganda has benefited from the complicity, or possibly even the support, of Rwanda, according to Kinshasa and to Human Rights Watch. Kigali denies the charge. The abuses &#8220;are always committed by the government troops,&#8221; according to Divine Uwimana, 36, who says she represents the refugees at Nkamira. Uwimana said she had not been attacked but that others were raped.

I don't exactly call this thriving, or that it's so good in the Congo.


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## Katzndogz

The United Nations and the personnel working for the United Nations in Africa look at their job as a way to get money.  It has become self perpetuating.  The more unrest there is, the more money they make.  The suffering people are tools of enrichment.  If the countries of Africa DID thrive, the UN participation would be unnecessary.  Therefore it is to the benefit of UN workers to maintain war and starvation as a way of job security.


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## Saigon

Katzndogz said:


> The United Nations and the personnel working for the United Nations in Africa look at their job as a way to get money.  It has become self perpetuating.  The more unrest there is, the more money they make.  The suffering people are tools of enrichment.  If the countries of Africa DID thrive, the UN participation would be unnecessary.  Therefore it is to the benefit of UN workers to maintain war and starvation as a way of job security.



None of the ones I have met and worked with fit that description. 

I agree that the system of aid can be self-perpetuating, which is one reason I am not a big proponent of aid. But in general the people are dedicated and professional. 

It might interest you to note that several African countries - including Rwanda and Liberia - also want to end aid.

And yes, Rwanda is thriving. Kigali is booming - you should go and see for yourself. It is all gleaming new buildings, new businesses, new ideas. It helps that the government is massively popular, but it also shows that the ordinary people have really knuckled down to hard work and brought their society back from the dead.


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## Artevelde

Saigon said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> The United Nations and the personnel working for the United Nations in Africa look at their job as a way to get money.  It has become self perpetuating.  The more unrest there is, the more money they make.  The suffering people are tools of enrichment.  If the countries of Africa DID thrive, the UN participation would be unnecessary.  Therefore it is to the benefit of UN workers to maintain war and starvation as a way of job security.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> None of the ones I have met and worked with fit that description.
> 
> I agree that the system of aid can be self-perpetuating, which is one reason I am not a big proponent of aid. But in general the people are dedicated and professional.
> 
> It my interest you to note that several African countries - including Rwanda - also want to end aid.
> 
> And yes, Rwanda is thriving. Kigali is booming - you should go and see for yourself.
Click to expand...


It's a dictatorship where dissent is ruthlessly suppressed. 

But saigon has already demonstrated before that he/she is a total fraud, also when it comes to Rwanda.


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## Katzndogz

We just have a different definition of thriving, that's all.


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## eots

Saigon said:


> Away from the poverty and starvation we often see on our TV screens, Africa can be stunningly beautiful, and it always saddens me we don't see more of that side of the continent.
> 
> It is poor, it can be dangerous, but it is also a continent of immense diversity (and 51 countries), hope, life and generosity.
> 
> I have been lucky enough to travel the continent widely, and particularly to spend time far out in the wilds around the wildlife. Click on the images to see them full size.
> 
> Here are a few of my favourite pictues of the continent, from Namibia, South Africa, Swaziland, Rwanda, DR Congo and Botswana.
> 
> Climbing Mt Nyiragongo, DR Congo, and the worlds largest lava lake
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rwanda mountain gorillas:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Namibia, Botswana and South Africa's Kruger.



My brother is on a three month motorcycle trip across Africa on his BMW right now..


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## Katzndogz

eots said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Away from the poverty and starvation we often see on our TV screens, Africa can be stunningly beautiful, and it always saddens me we don't see more of that side of the continent.
> 
> It is poor, it can be dangerous, but it is also a continent of immense diversity (and 51 countries), hope, life and generosity.
> 
> I have been lucky enough to travel the continent widely, and particularly to spend time far out in the wilds around the wildlife. Click on the images to see them full size.
> 
> Here are a few of my favourite pictues of the continent, from Namibia, South Africa, Swaziland, Rwanda, DR Congo and Botswana.
> 
> Climbing Mt Nyiragongo, DR Congo, and the worlds largest lava lake
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rwanda mountain gorillas:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Namibia, Botswana and South Africa's Kruger.
> 
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> 
> My brother is on a three month motorcycle trip across Africa on his BMW right now..
Click to expand...


I hope he'll be okay!  Africa is notoiously unstable.

I work with a UN attorney still involved in prosecuting Rwandan war criminals.    He said that all across Africa are women walking with their children trying to find some kind of safe haven.   He sent me numerous pictures of these wandering women.   I did a painting of a woman with her children.   It will be going into the Toyota Art Museum in October.   I have a series of paintings that I did of Africa.  I do hope you will post any interesting photographs.


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## Unkotare

How about you? When were you in Africa? Where, and for how long?


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## Saigon

eots said:


> My brother is on a three month motorcycle trip across Africa on his BMW right now..



Fantastic - that has to be the way to see the place....getting right out in the countryside. 


Katz - 

Thriving is relative. When I say Rwanda is thriving, I do mean by local standards, not by Switzerland's. 

But at the same time - it really is not at all what you think, and if you went there, you'd be stunned. I doubt your vision of Africa involves sipping latte outside perfect cafes or mirror glass towers or great museums...but Africa is all that too.


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## Katzndogz

Saigon said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> 
> My brother is on a three month motorcycle trip across Africa on his BMW right now..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fantastic - that has to be the way to see the place....getting right out in the countryside.
> 
> 
> Katz -
> 
> Thriving is relative. When I say Rwanda is thriving, I do mean by local standards, not by Switzerland's.
> 
> But at the same time - it really is not at all what you think, and if you went there, you'd be stunned. I doubt your vision of Africa involves sipping latte outside perfect cafes or mirror glass towers or great museums...but Africa is all that too.
Click to expand...


Getting murdered and raped by the Congolese is thriving by Rwandan standards?

Well, you could be right!


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## Saigon

Katzndogz said:


> Getting murdered and raped by the Congolese is thriving by Rwandan standards?
> 
> Well, you could be right!



I am right - and that is absolutely not at all what life in Rwanda is about. 

If you find a myth fits more comfortably into your preconceptions of Africa - go with that, but don't think for a second that it has anything to do with reality.


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## Jos

I lived and worked in Kenya, Tanzania, Zimbabwe, Swaziland, South Africa and Namibia.
What an education that was


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## eots

Katzndogz said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Away from the poverty and starvation we often see on our TV screens, Africa can be stunningly beautiful, and it always saddens me we don't see more of that side of the continent.
> 
> It is poor, it can be dangerous, but it is also a continent of immense diversity (and 51 countries), hope, life and generosity.
> 
> I have been lucky enough to travel the continent widely, and particularly to spend time far out in the wilds around the wildlife. Click on the images to see them full size.
> 
> Here are a few of my favourite pictues of the continent, from Namibia, South Africa, Swaziland, Rwanda, DR Congo and Botswana.
> 
> Climbing Mt Nyiragongo, DR Congo, and the worlds largest lava lake
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rwanda mountain gorillas:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Namibia, Botswana and South Africa's Kruger.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My brother is on a three month motorcycle trip across Africa on his BMW right now..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I hope he'll be okay!  Africa is notoiously unstable.
> 
> I work with a UN attorney still involved in prosecuting Rwandan war criminals.    He said that all across Africa are women walking with their children trying to find some kind of safe haven.   He sent me numerous pictures of these wandering women.   I did a painting of a woman with her children.   It will be going into the Toyota Art Museum in October.   I have a series of paintings that I did of Africa.  I do hope you will post any interesting photographs.
Click to expand...


they travel in a small group and have a van with medical and mechanical support that follows behind and an armed security escort on some parts of the trip


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## Artevelde

Saigon said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Getting murdered and raped by the Congolese is thriving by Rwandan standards?
> 
> Well, you could be right!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am right - and that is absolutely not at all what life in Rwanda is about.
> 
> If you find a myth fits more comfortably into your preconceptions of Africa - go with that, but don't think for a second that it has anything to do with reality.
Click to expand...


It must be great in your parallel universe.


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## Saigon

eots said:


> they travel in a small group and have a van with medical and mechanical support that follows behind and an armed security escort on some parts of the trip



Wow...that does sound amazing! 

I did know a guy who cycled Cairo to Cape Town that sounded a bit like that. Fairly arduous stuff, but certainly a once in a lifetime experience.


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## ScienceRocks




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## Katzndogz

Africa is a huge continent.  I'm sure that there are pockets of sanity without war.  Even in Rwanda.  My colleague has lived in African off and on for six years and has never come under fire.


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## Saigon

Katzndogz said:


> Africa is a huge continent.  I'm sure that there are pockets of sanity without war.  Even in Rwanda.  My colleague has lived in African off and on for six years and has never come under fire.



I'd say "especially in Rwanda". It really is one of the safest and most rapidly developing countries on the continent. 

I have seen some devastating poverty in Africa, and I've seen some awful sites and some dangerous places, so I don't want to sound like I think they don't exist; but in a way that is what we know from TV. What we don't know from TV is how much of the continent is now achieving a reasonable level of lower middle class life. 

I've never come under fire (in Africa) either.


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## Katzndogz

Saigon said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Africa is a huge continent.  I'm sure that there are pockets of sanity without war.  Even in Rwanda.  My colleague has lived in African off and on for six years and has never come under fire.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd say "especially in Rwanda". It really is one of the safest and most rapidly developing countries on the continent.
> 
> I have seen some devastating poverty in Africa, and I've seen some awful sites and some dangerous places, so I don't want to sound like I think they don't exist; but in a way that is what we know from TV. What we don't know from TV is how much of the continent is now achieving a reasonable level of lower middle class life.
> 
> I've never come under fire (in Africa) either.
Click to expand...


Perhaps peace can be achieved with the murders of millions of people!

Or at least for awhile!

DRC warns of more fighting with Rwanda | News24


New York - The Democratic Republic of Congo warned on Wednesday that the presence of Rwandan fighters in an anti-government mutiny could unleash new hostilities between the neighbours. 

DR Congo Foreign Minister Raymond Tshibanda said in a letter to the UN Security Council that evidence of Rwandan involvement meant the crisis in the east of his country was "evolving dangerously toward a rupture of the peace" between the two.

Even when some little corner of Africa becomes peaceful, it seems to never last for long.   War, famine, desperation makes a lot of money for "leaders" who use sympathy for the plight of the citizens as a way to enrich themselves.  These are black leaders who have proven themselves no better than the worst of corrupt white despots.


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## Saigon

Katnz - 

If there is more fighting in the Kivus, that fighting will take place not in Rwanda, but in the Kivus. The relationhip between DRC and Rwanda is tense, and is likely to remain so for a while, but at least both countries are functioning democracies, and are more stable than they have been for 50 years. 



> Perhaps peace can be achieved with the murders of millions of people!



Please don't post things like that. This has been an adult conversation so far - let's keep it that way. 



> Even when some little corner of Africa becomes peaceful, it seems to never last for long.



Right - and when was the last time there was fighting in Botswana? Ghana? Senegal? Namibia? Tunisia? 

I could list a lot more, as well.


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## LAfrique

Saigon said:


> Away from the poverty and starvation we often see on our TV screens, Africa can be stunningly beautiful, and it always saddens me we don't see more of that side of the continent.
> 
> It is poor, it can be dangerous, but it is also a continent of immense diversity (and 51 countries), hope, life and generosity.
> 
> I have been lucky enough to travel the continent widely, and particularly to spend time far out in the wilds around the wildlife. Click on the images to see them full size.
> 
> Here are a few of my favourite pictures of the continent, from Namibia, South Africa, Swaziland, Rwanda, DR Congo and Botswana.
> 
> Climbing Mt Nyiragongo, DR Congo, and the worlds largest lava lake
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rwanda mountain gorillas:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Namibia, Botswana and South Africa's Kruger.



*What? Show the good or beautiful side of Africa and spoil the propaganda by "developed nations"? Got to be kidding!  *


By the way, love the images: Great shots. *And wishing your brother happy travels!*


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## Artevelde

Saigon said:


> Katnz -
> 
> If there is more fighting in the Kivus, that fighting will take place not in Rwanda, but in the Kivus. The relationhip between DRC and Rwanda is tense, and is likely to remain so for a while, but at least both countries are functioning democracies, and are more stable than they have been for 50 years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps peace can be achieved with the murders of millions of people!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please don't post things like that. This has been an adult conversation so far - let's keep it that way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even when some little corner of Africa becomes peaceful, it seems to never last for long.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Right - and when was the last time there was fighting in Botswana? Ghana? Senegal? Namibia? Tunisia?
> 
> I could list a lot more, as well.
Click to expand...


Your statement that the DRC and Rwanda are functioning democracies again demonstrates what a total fraud you are.


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## High_Gravity

Nice pics!


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## LAfrique

High_Gravity said:


> Nice pics!



*Pervert High_Gravity Sandusky!* No decent person wants to see your butt hole.


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## Saigon

LAfrique said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice pics!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Pervert High_Gravity Sandusky!* No decent person wants to see your butt hole.
Click to expand...


Call me crazy, but I somehow think the butt in HG's avatar is not his own....!


Arte - 

Try to maintain a little dignity. 

I don't see your posts, I don't read your posts, and stalking me doesn't encourage me to do so.


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## Artevelde

Saigon said:


> LAfrique said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice pics!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Pervert High_Gravity Sandusky!* No decent person wants to see your butt hole.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Call me crazy, but I somehow think the butt in HG's avatar is not his own....!
> 
> 
> Arte -
> 
> Try to maintain a little dignity.
> 
> I don't see your posts, I don't read your posts, and stalking me doesn't encourage me to do so.
Click to expand...


I know that you don't like to be confronted with your lies. And frauds like you shouldn't talk about dignity. You even deny your own quotes, what kind of dignity is that?


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## Saigon

> What? Show the good or beautiful side of Africa and spoil the propaganda by "developed nations"? Got to be kidding!
> 
> 
> By the way, love the images: Great shots. And wishing your brother happy travels!



Thanks, man! 

Not to sure the dark side of Africa is propaganda, though. In the 1960s and 1970s I think there was a lot of propaganda, but it has now been 50 years since independence for most African countries, and I think local people need to be accountable for their own lives. 

Belgians were responsible for the collapse of Congolese life...but it is the Congolese who have held themselves down since then.


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## Artevelde

Saigon said:


> What? Show the good or beautiful side of Africa and spoil the propaganda by "developed nations"? Got to be kidding!
> 
> 
> By the way, love the images: Great shots. And wishing your brother happy travels!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, man!
> 
> Not to sure the dark side of Africa is propaganda, though. In the 1960s and 1970s I think there was a lot of propaganda, but it has now been 50 years since independence for most African countries, and I think local people need to be accountable for their own lives.
> 
> Belgians were responsible for the collapse of Congolese life...but it is the Congolese who have held themselves down since then.
Click to expand...


Actually, the Belgian Congo was much better off under Belgian rule (however colonialist and exploitative that was). It's been downhill ever since.


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## Unkotare

I have never been to Africa (something I hope to remedy one day) but I have had students who survived horrors in the Congo, Rwanda, Somalia, and other parts of Africa that were just hair raising when they (eventually, only after much trust had been developed) recounted them to me. It is astonishing what human beings are capable of doing to one another, and what they are capable of overcoming.


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## High_Gravity

Saigon said:


> Matthew said:
> 
> 
> 
> The animals are amazing and there's plenty of resources to create a great civilization or two, but its people aren't capable of taking advantage of it. Sadly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can't making a sweeping generalisation about 51 countries - and I'm amazed you try.
Click to expand...


Us yankees cant help ourselves, to us the whole continent of Africa is Somalia and Zimbabwe.


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## Saigon

Unkotare said:


> I have never been to Africa (something I hope to remedy one day) but I have had students who survived horrors in the Congo, Rwanda, Somalia, and other parts of Africa that were just hair raising when they (eventually, only after much trust had been developed) recounted them to me. It is astonishing what human beings are capable of doing to one another, and what they are capable of overcoming.



True enough, and it seems to be not only true of individuals, but of entire communities. 

People in Rwanda, in particular, are warm, welcoming and trustworthy. And yet it is still only 18 years since one of the most violent attempts at genocide the world has ever seen. That makes no sense to me at all!

Africa is a wonderful region to travel; something like South Africa, Namibia and Botswana is a wonderful trip for your first touch of the continent. All 3 countries are quite civilised, and relatively easy to travel in.


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## High_Gravity

Saigon said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> The ones taken as slaves were certainly more fortunate than those left behind.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *I don't think anything more needs to be added to this statement, really. This really is one of the breathtaking claims I have ever seen made on a discussion forum.*
Click to expand...


Not to me, I have heard several people make this same exact statement on this board.


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## High_Gravity

LAfrique said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice pics!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Pervert High_Gravity Sandusky!* No decent person wants to see your butt hole.
Click to expand...


What in the fuck?


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## Saigon

High_Gravity said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> The ones taken as slaves were certainly more fortunate than those left behind.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *I don't think anything more needs to be added to this statement, really. This really is one of the breathtaking claims I have ever seen made on a discussion forum.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Not to me, I have heard several people make this same exact statement on this board.
Click to expand...


Wow....it's a first for me. I just don't know what to say about a statement like that. 

When you think of the number of slaves who starved to death or died of disease en route, those who were simply thrown overboard in some cases, and then those who worked literally worked to death in sugar plantations from Brazil to Cuba and the US....I can't see how that could be a better option for anyone.


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## High_Gravity

Saigon said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> 
> *I don't think anything more needs to be added to this statement, really. This really is one of the breathtaking claims I have ever seen made on a discussion forum.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not to me, I have heard several people make this same exact statement on this board.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wow....it's a first for me. I just don't know what to say about a statement like that.
> 
> When you think of the number of slaves who starved to death or died of disease en route, those who were simply thrown overboard in some cases, and then those who worked literally worked to death in sugar plantations from Brazil to Cuba and the US....I can't see how that could be a better option for anyone.
Click to expand...


I agree, people just look at how Blacks in the US are living compared to Africa and think Black Americans should be grateful they are here, even though it was through slavery. That is borderline insane but it is what it is.


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## Saigon

Jos - 

The sand dunes are at Sossusvlei, which is about a three hour drive south of Windhoek. They are straight down the coast from Swakopmund, but I don't think there is a road - it's just desert. An amazing, amazing area.


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## Katzndogz

Saigon said:


> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> 
> *I don't think anything more needs to be added to this statement, really. This really is one of the breathtaking claims I have ever seen made on a discussion forum.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not to me, I have heard several people make this same exact statement on this board.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wow....it's a first for me. I just don't know what to say about a statement like that.
> 
> When you think of the number of slaves who starved to death or died of disease en route, those who were simply thrown overboard in some cases, and then those who worked literally worked to death in sugar plantations from Brazil to Cuba and the US....I can't see how that could be a better option for anyone.
Click to expand...


Oh please.  It's not like only black people suffered.   Many people died of disease or starved to death en route.   Steerage passengers didn't get room service.  They didn't get food at all.   They got what they were carrying and only if that little bit wasn't stolen.   Being black does not exempt an individual from the laws of physics.


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## Saigon

Katzndogz said:


> Oh please.  It's not like only black people suffered.   Many people died of disease or starved to death en route.   Steerage passengers didn't get room service.  They didn't get food at all.   They got what they were carrying and only if that little bit wasn't stolen.   Being black does not exempt an individual from the laws of physics.



What are you talking about?

The Atlantic slaves were all black, so yes, black people were the only ones who suffered. 

There were virtually no passengers on slave ships at all, and those who were carried as passangers generally received good meals with the officers.


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## Katzndogz

Saigon said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh please.  It's not like only black people suffered.   Many people died of disease or starved to death en route.   Steerage passengers didn't get room service.  They didn't get food at all.   They got what they were carrying and only if that little bit wasn't stolen.   Being black does not exempt an individual from the laws of physics.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What are you talking about?
> 
> The Atlantic slaves were all black, so yes, black people were the only ones who suffered.
> 
> There were virtually no passengers on slave ships at all, and those who were carried as passangers generally received good meals with the officers.
Click to expand...


There were plenty of passenger ships that weren't slave ships that had as many deaths.  There were more ships than just slave ships.  Although, I grant you, on slave ships there were mostly slaves.  There are other people in the world than just black people, and all of them count too.  Not just black people.

The Steerage Passenger - Conditions circa 1913 Contrasted with Old Steerage Conditions


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## Saigon

Katz - 

So you are comparing slaves being herded on to slave ships with ordinary passenger ships.....?

I am speechless.


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## Unkotare

She's not very bright, and prone to talking out of her ass.


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## Katzndogz

Saigon said:


> Katz -
> 
> So you are comparing slaves being herded on to slave ships with ordinary passenger ships.....?
> 
> I am speechless.



I am comparing conditions.  Not the circumstances under which they got on the ship.  Slaves got on the ship because they were captured by black people and sold into slavery by black people.  The descendants of those slaves have much better living conditions today than the descendants of Africans who were never captured by their black countrymen, nor sold by their black countrymen.


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## Katzndogz

High_Gravity said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> High_Gravity said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not to me, I have heard several people make this same exact statement on this board.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow....it's a first for me. I just don't know what to say about a statement like that.
> 
> When you think of the number of slaves who starved to death or died of disease en route, those who were simply thrown overboard in some cases, and then those who worked literally worked to death in sugar plantations from Brazil to Cuba and the US....I can't see how that could be a better option for anyone.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I agree, people just look at how Blacks in the US are living compared to Africa and think Black Americans should be grateful they are here, even though it was through slavery. That is borderline insane but it is what it is.
Click to expand...


I can't say they should be grateful, but they should at least recognize that Africa is a place largely of crushing and grinding poverty and likely to fall into some sort of war with the slightest of sparks.    Here, poverty means an EBT card and the grocery store, in Africa it's standing in line at a UN feeding station waiting for a bowl of rice.   If given the choice today, Africans will leave and come to the very country that has a history of dragging them here in chains.    In fact Africans will go anywhere they can get to if given the chance.


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## Unkotare

Katzndogz said:


> Saigon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Katz -
> 
> So you are comparing slaves being herded on to slave ships with ordinary passenger ships.....?
> 
> I am speechless.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am comparing conditions.  Not the circumstances under which they got on the ship.  Slaves got on the ship because they were captured by black people and sold into slavery by black people.  The descendants of those slaves have much better living conditions today than the descendants of Africans who were never captured by their black countrymen, nor sold by their black countrymen.
Click to expand...




Gee, I wonder if anyone can figure out what you were really trying to say in that post... 

You're a disgrace.


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## Saigon

Katzndogz said:


> I can't say they should be grateful, but they should at least recognize that Africa is a place largely of crushing and grinding poverty and likely to fall into some sort of war with the slightest of sparks.    Here, poverty means an EBT card and the grocery store, in Africa it's standing in line at a UN feeding station waiting for a bowl of rice.   If given the choice today, Africans will leave and come to the very country that has a history of dragging them here in chains.    In fact Africans will go anywhere they can get to if given the chance.



I do take your point, but I think suggesting people were better off as slaves than as free men is close to being offensive. It's not something I hear many black people saying. 

But I agree that poverty in the US in 2012 is not the same as poverty in Somalia in 2012.


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## Katzndogz

If you get right down to it.  An American slave in 1870 was better off than someone in 2012 Somalia.  

Although a slave in 1870 Haiti had it worse than even in 2012 Somalia!   Those French were the most brutal of any other slave holding cultures.   Absolutely horrible.


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## Saigon

Katzndogz said:


> If you get right down to it.  An American slave in 1870 was better off than someone in 2012 Somalia.
> 
> Although a slave in 1870 Haiti had it worse than even in 2012 Somalia!   Those French were the most brutal of any other slave holding cultures.   Absolutely horrible.



As appalling as Somalia in 2012 is, I don't think anyone can say a slave is "better off" than anyone anywhere who has freedom. 

Conditions in Haiti and Brazil may have been worse than in the US, by and large, but even so, very many black slaves died of overwork and brutality.


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## Saigon

This is my lasy post for a while...I'm heading to the airport then fly to Accra (Ghana) tonight, and then on to Sierra Leone on Tuesday. 

See you all in a few weeks!


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## Katzndogz

Saigon said:


> This is my lasy post for a while...I'm heading to the airport then fly to Accra (Ghana) tonight, and then on to Sierra Leone on Tuesday.
> 
> See you all in a few weeks!



I do hope you take lots of good pictures and post them.


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## Artevelde

Saigon said:


> This is my lasy post for a while...I'm heading to the airport then fly to Accra (Ghana) tonight, and then on to Sierra Leone on Tuesday.
> 
> See you all in a few weeks!



Good riddance.


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## Saigon

I'm back....I took some amazing pictures, and will post a few when I have time. 

Needless to say, being in Liberia was quite an experience! (And not always a good one!)


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## ScienceRocks

Saigon said:


> I'm back....I took some amazing pictures, and will post a few when I have time.
> 
> Needless to say, being in Liberia was quite an experience! (And not always a good one!)



Any modernization going on? Buildings, roads and people walking around with smart phones? 

Is Africa improving? Did you feel safe?


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## Saigon

Matthew - 

I was in 4 countries (Ghana, Togo, Sierra Leone and Liberia) and felt completely safe in Ghana and Sierra Leone. Togo is largely fine, but you need to take precautions, and Liberia to me did not feel so safe. 

Everyone in Africa has  a mobile phone and there were even billboards up advertising 4G, so at that level Africa is up to speed. 

Ghana is completely developed - shopping malls, good roads, decent water & electricity and all that kind of thing, but the other countries in the region a bit less so. 

Sierra Leone particularly is a complete mess - nothing works. The roads are just mud, and the buildings in terrible shape. The people were great, but it has a long, long way to go to become a functioning economy. 

Much of Africa has improved enormously in the past decade, largely due to better government. And then it becomes an upward cycle - better govt promotes business, which improves incomes, which means people spend more and stimulate the economy. We're seeing that in Ghana, and starting to take place along the coast, but for Liberia and SL it will be another generation before people really start to feel an improvement is my guess.


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## africauntamed

Africa is my second home. Basically I am from Canada but being a African tour organizer I have to visit Africa frequently. Africa is not only famous for their African safari, animals and birds but also there are so many beautiful locations like beaches, waterfalls and also shopping destinations. I love Africa too.


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