# Janet Reno Dies



## Mrs. M.

President Bill Clinton and his 2 term Attorney General Janet Reno​
Janet Reno made history as the second longest serving Attorney General in US history after William Wirt.  She served as AG for President Bill Clinton's Administration both terms. She was the first woman to serve as Attorney General in  US history according to Wikipedia sources:
Janet Reno - Wikipedia

Reno was despised by many for her role as the infamous prosecutor who ordered the six year old Elian Gonzalaz to be taken from his mother's relatives in Florida where he resided and returned to his father in Cuba. Elian's mother Elizabeth Broton Rodriguez drowned while trying to escape Cuba with him.  Reno sided with Cuban authorities and ordered the boy to be returned to his father in communist controlled Cuba.  The story touched the hearts of millions of Americans who witnessed a mother's dream of freedom for her child go up in smoke after the child was taken by federal agents at gunpoint.
​




The scene of armed federal agents pointing a weapon at the six year old hiding in a closet with a relative was a memory forever etched in the minds of Americans who considered Reno's toughness to have crossed the line in the Gonzalez case.  After the case made international news, the Clinton's decided to appoint Reno as their Attorney General.

Her first assignment as Attorney General for the Clinton Administration led to an even greater firestorm of controversy over yet another demonstration of her bad judgment.  12 days after being sworn in, Janet Reno took charge of and ordered the arrest of the Branch Davidians which led to a 51 day stand off, culminating in the deaths of 80 people including 24 children who perished in the fire at Waco, Texas.






The nation watched the scene in horror as the compound in Waco, Texas came under attack by ATF agents and went up in flames.  Many Americans disagreed with how Janet Reno and the Clinton Administration handled Waco.  Twenty years later the Daily Mail commemorated the tragedy with the headline "Disastrous raid on Branch Davidians."

The Daily Mail reported:
The incident cast an international spotlight on Waco and Central Texas, as well as the ATF, which was criticized in a later government review for not calling off the raid after sect members found out about it.

Read more: Disastrous raid on the Branch Davidians compound near Waco quietly remembered 20 years later | Daily Mail Online

Reno later took full responsibility for the disastrous raid at Waco and said that she regretted her decision to storm the compound which led to the deaths of 80 people including children.

Janet Reno also led the investigation and subsequent raid of the Montana Freeman.
Montana Freeman Wikipedia story:

The *Montana Freemen* were an anti-government Christian Patriot movement group based outside the town of Jordan, Montana. The members of the group referred to their land as "Justus Township" and had declared themselves no longer under the authority of any outside government. They became the center of public attention in 1996 when they engaged in a prolonged armed standoff with agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
Montana Freemen - Wikipedia

21 people were arrested after an 81 day standoff in which Reno managed to avoid another Waco disaster.  No casualties were reported in the 1996 standoff.

In 2002 Janet Reno decided to run for Governor of Florida.  She endorsed the rights of homosexuals to adopt children while on the campaign trail. She was defeated in the primary by  Democrat Candidate Bill McBride.

World Net Daily Reports:

FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. – Former Attorney General Janet Reno told an enthusiastic crowd of homosexuals what they wanted to hear yesterday, as the gubernatorial candidate promised help in overturning Florida’s ban on homosexual adoptions.

“If you can be gay and be a foster parent, if you can be gay and be a guardian, if you can be a perfectly wonderful parent to a child who’s unadoptable and in so doing make them adoptable, you ought to be able to adopt them,” Reno declared in reference to an effort to overturn Florida’s ban on homosexual adoptions.

Making a campaign stop at a luncheon sponsored by GayLauderdale.com and Embassy Suites Hotel, the Democrat also pleased the audience with her vow to “support in every way possible” efforts to resist the repeal of the portion of the Miami-Dade County Human Rights Ordinance that protects residents and visitors against discrimination based on sexual orientation. The proposed repeal is a ballot measure that goes before voters in September.

“Janet has a special place in the gay community,” GayLauderdale.com President Monte Guthrie told World Net Daily News.
Reno stumps at ‘gay’ luncheon


The death of Janet Reno was announced today but according to another news report her niece didn't announce the news of her death to NBC until later. She was surrounded by family members in her final days and died from complications connected to Parkinson's disease.  The timing of the news comes a day after the shocking announcement by FBI Director Comey to clear Mrs. Clinton of any wrong doing connected to the original email - server investigation.

________________________________________________________________


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## JoeB131

Okay- Any custody court in the country would have awarded custody of Elian to his father. 

And four investigations determined the Davidians committed mass suicide.


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## Old Yeller

go high go low but time to go.


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## Mrs. M.

JoeB131 said:


> Okay- Any custody court in the country would have awarded custody of Elian to his father.
> 
> And four investigations determined the Davidians committed mass suicide.


Not necessarily.  The best interest of the child should have been considered first.  The American people were in favor of the boys rights to stay in America. 

The truth about Waco is that if any other Attorney General under a Republican President had admitted responsibility (Janet Reno publicly admitted it and took full responsibility)  for storming Waco Compound and mass murdering 80 people including 24 children - they would have been immediately removed from office.  That didn't happen because she was working for the Clinton's.  

It would be wise for the American people to remember how Janet Reno handled Waco, the targeting of Christians such as the Montana Freeman case, Oklahoma City bombing investigation and so forth.

That was under Bill Clinton's administration.  Can you imagine what Hillary's would be like?  God save us from such a day!


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## emilynghiem

JoeB131 said:


> Okay- Any custody court in the country would have awarded custody of Elian to his father.
> 
> And four investigations determined the Davidians committed mass suicide.



Dear JoeB131 I know a minister in Houston with experience counseling "apocalyptic Christians" who had been on the scene asking to negotiate with the Davidians and their leaders. He was denied access at that point because of security issues that already went too far in the wrong direction. He was able to counsel the surviving members but too late to save the larger group from violent destruction and death.

had this been set up correctly, nobody needed to die. it was not handled properly.

And neither are immigration policies that split families and cost taxpayers for lack of accountability,
enforcement, deterrence of violations and RESTITUTION for crimes and trafficking:
http://www.earnedamnesty.org It will take all sectors to team up to solve the border issues.
Trump as an independent business man is more able to cross over barriers to work out such
collaborative solutions. Clinton can't even go after crooks if she uses the law to hide her own party's collusions.


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## Mrs. M.

Does anyone remember this famous speech by Bill Clinton in which he reminds the American people that while he was president, his wife Hillary Clinton having conversations with the dead - Mrs. Roosevelt?  The story is famous in Bob Woodward's book about Hillary Clinton talking to dead people.  

Mrs. Clinton should contact Janet Reno and ask her about the temperature where she is so she can make an informed decision as to whether or not she wants to join her there in the future.


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## LA RAM FAN

Mrs. M. said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay- Any custody court in the country would have awarded custody of Elian to his father.
> 
> And four investigations determined the Davidians committed mass suicide.
> 
> 
> 
> Not necessarily.  The best interest of the child should have been considered first.  The American people were in favor of the boys rights to stay in America.
> 
> The truth about Waco is that if any other Attorney General under a Republican President had admitted responsibility (Janet Reno publicly admitted it and took full responsibility)  for storming Waco Compound and mass murdering 80 people including 24 children - they would have been immediately removed from office.  That didn't happen because she was working for the Clinton's.
> 
> It would be wise for the American people to remember how Janet Reno handled Waco, the targeting of Christians such as the Montana Freeman case, Oklahoma City bombing investigation and so forth.
> 
> That was under Bill Clinton's administration.  Can you imagine what Hillary's would be like?  God save us from such a day!
Click to expand...


amen to that.
if any woman other than HELLERY could be a nazi,it would be HER indeed.That was why the Clintons loved her so much,she was a mass murderer of children same as the Clintons.

I wonder if the witch hellery got into an argument with her and ordered the CIA to kill her off same as they did with vince foster and so many others.lol


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## LA RAM FAN

emilynghiem said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay- Any custody court in the country would have awarded custody of Elian to his father.
> 
> And four investigations determined the Davidians committed mass suicide.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dear JoeB131 I know a minister in Houston with experience counseling "apocalyptic Christians" who had been on the scene asking to negotiate with the Davidians and their leaders. He was denied access at that point because of security issues that already went too far in the wrong direction. He was able to counsel the surviving members but too late to save the larger group from violent destruction and death.
> 
> had this been set up correctly, nobody needed to die. it was not handled properly.
> 
> And neither are immigration policies that split families and cost taxpayers for lack of accountability,
> enforcement, deterrence of violations and RESTITUTION for crimes and trafficking:
> http://www.earnedamnesty.org It will take all sectors to team up to solve the border issues.
> Trump as an independent business man is more able to cross over barriers to work out such
> collaborative solutions. Clinton can't even go after crooks if she uses the law to hide her own party's collusions.
Click to expand...


yeah they didnt need to die but the clintons same as the Bushs take pleasure in the sufferering and murdering of others so in their minds of course all those children DID have to die a horrible death no less. 

some of the suvivors said there were people coming out saying dont shoot,yet the ATF mowed them down and of course they did not get any punishment for their deeds,they got rewarded to no surprise.The clintons were probably the ones that encouraged the agency to reward them for their actions no less.


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## Mrs. M.

I wonder if they waited a day or two knowing that FBI Director Comey's announcement of Hillary being cleared from all wrong doing had to take center stage MSM news yesterday.  Today was a more convenient time for Mrs. Clinton.  We'll know when we see Reno's tombstone.  

I found it odd that a niece described family members surrounding Reno at her death bed for days and "later on" contacting NBC to inform them.  It wouldn't surprise me.  I certainly won't be depending on Google to reveal the truth about it.


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## LA RAM FAN

JoeB131 said:


> Okay- Any custody court in the country would have awarded custody of Elian to his father.
> 
> And four investigations determined the Davidians committed mass suicide.


soon as your head out of your ass that 9/11 was an inside job,you will then accept it as well those investigations were led by the clintons.


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## Mrs. M.

LA RAM FAN said:


> emilynghiem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay- Any custody court in the country would have awarded custody of Elian to his father.
> 
> And four investigations determined the Davidians committed mass suicide.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dear JoeB131 I know a minister in Houston with experience counseling "apocalyptic Christians" who had been on the scene asking to negotiate with the Davidians and their leaders. He was denied access at that point because of security issues that already went too far in the wrong direction. He was able to counsel the surviving members but too late to save the larger group from violent destruction and death.
> 
> had this been set up correctly, nobody needed to die. it was not handled properly.
> 
> And neither are immigration policies that split families and cost taxpayers for lack of accountability,
> enforcement, deterrence of violations and RESTITUTION for crimes and trafficking:
> http://www.earnedamnesty.org It will take all sectors to team up to solve the border issues.
> Trump as an independent business man is more able to cross over barriers to work out such
> collaborative solutions. Clinton can't even go after crooks if she uses the law to hide her own party's collusions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> yeah they didnt need to die but the clintons same as the Bushs take pleasure in the sufferering and murdering of others so in their minds of course all those children DID have to die a horrible death no less.
> 
> some of the suvivors said there were people coming out saying dont shoot,yet the ATF mowed them down and of course they did not get any punishment for their deeds,they got rewarded to no surprise.The clintons were probably the ones that encouraged the agency to reward them for their actions no less.
Click to expand...

Reno's order to storm Waco compound and mass murder 80 people including 24 children didn't happen without Clinton's approval.  Bill and Hillary Clinton have a special hatred for Christians.  We know this.

Wikileaks emails uncovered a discussion in which they were openly hostile to Catholics - it's already out there and if anyone thinks that Hillary Clinton's administration will not go after Christians with a vengeance is dangerously naive about who Hillary Clinton is.


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## james bond

RIP Janet Reno.  This is misleading ca-ca.  I'm fine with Janet Reno and mourn her loss.  She was truly independent than the feces that is Loretta Lynch appointed by the worst POTUS ever, Barack Obama.  Bill Clinton learned from what happened with Janet Reno and taught Obama his dirty tricks.

*I'm sure Janet Reno would've prosecuted Hillary Clinton back in July.*

"Ms. Reno brought a fierce independence to her job. From the FBI siege of the Branch Davidian compound in Texas to the investigation into Clinton’s sexual relationship with intern Monica Lewinsky, she was adamant that her prosecutors and agents work outside the influence of politics, media or popular opinion.

Her supporters believed she brought a heightened level of integrity and professionalism to the attorney general’s office. They admired her insistence on legal exactitude from her employees and praised her caution in prosecutions.

Ms. Reno resisted weeks of pressure to arrest Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman, waiting until she thought agents had sufficient legal justification to tie him to the 1993 World Trade Center bombings. He was later convicted.






On Feb. 12, 1993, President Clinton named Janet Reno the nation's first female attorney general. (Doug Mills/AP)
“She was a very powerful force for lawfulness,” said Walter E. Dellinger III, a Duke University law professor who served as solicitor general during Ms. Reno’s tenure. “She was always challenging to make sure there was a sound legal basis for what people were doing. *And she was adamant about separating the department from politics.*”

Business leaders criticized her lengthy prosecution of Microsoft on charges of anti-competitive violations — a case that ultimately ended in a settlement under the George W. Bush administration.

Civil libertarians took Ms. Reno to task for her handling of the espionage case against former Los Alamos National Laboratory scientist Wen Ho Lee, who was held in solitary confinement for nine months after being charged with mishandling nuclear secrets, only to be released on a lesser charge. Even Clinton said he was troubled by the case; Ms. Reno refused to apologize.

Republicans criticized her bitterly for pandering to the Clinton White House — she refused, for instance, to launch an independent investigation into whether Vice President Al Gore illegally fundraised from the White House during the 1996 Clinton-Gore reelection campaign. Democrats, meanwhile, disparaged her for abandoning her political patrons. *Ms. Reno said first lady Hillary Clinton never forgave her for authorizing an investigation into the Lewinsky affair.*"

Janet Reno, fiercely independent U.S. attorney general of 1990s, dies at 78


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## Old Yeller




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## Moonglow

Mrs. M. said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay- Any custody court in the country would have awarded custody of Elian to his father.
> 
> And four investigations determined the Davidians committed mass suicide.
> 
> 
> 
> Not necessarily.  The best interest of the child should have been considered first.  The American people were in favor of the boys rights to stay in America.
> 
> The truth about Waco is that if any other Attorney General under a Republican President had admitted responsibility (Janet Reno publicly admitted it and took full responsibility)  for storming Waco Compound and mass murdering 80 people including 24 children - they would have been immediately removed from office.  That didn't happen because she was working for the Clinton's.
> 
> It would be wise for the American people to remember how Janet Reno handled Waco, the targeting of Christians such as the Montana Freeman case, Oklahoma City bombing investigation and so forth.
> 
> That was under Bill Clinton's administration.  Can you imagine what Hillary's would be like?  God save us from such a day!
Click to expand...

What gave the boy rights in the USA?


----------



## bodecea

LA RAM FAN said:


> emilynghiem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay- Any custody court in the country would have awarded custody of Elian to his father.
> 
> And four investigations determined the Davidians committed mass suicide.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dear JoeB131 I know a minister in Houston with experience counseling "apocalyptic Christians" who had been on the scene asking to negotiate with the Davidians and their leaders. He was denied access at that point because of security issues that already went too far in the wrong direction. He was able to counsel the surviving members but too late to save the larger group from violent destruction and death.
> 
> had this been set up correctly, nobody needed to die. it was not handled properly.
> 
> And neither are immigration policies that split families and cost taxpayers for lack of accountability,
> enforcement, deterrence of violations and RESTITUTION for crimes and trafficking:
> http://www.earnedamnesty.org It will take all sectors to team up to solve the border issues.
> Trump as an independent business man is more able to cross over barriers to work out such
> collaborative solutions. Clinton can't even go after crooks if she uses the law to hide her own party's collusions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> yeah they didnt need to die but the clintons same as the Bushs take pleasure in the sufferering and murdering of others so in their minds of course all those children DID have to die a horrible death no less.
> 
> some of the suvivors said there were people coming out saying dont shoot,yet the ATF mowed them down and of course they did not get any punishment for their deeds,they got rewarded to no surprise.The clintons were probably the ones that encouraged the agency to reward them for their actions no less.
Click to expand...

So...how many of the Koresh followers died of bullet wounds?


----------



## Mrs. M.

james bond said:


> RIP Janet Reno.  This is misleading ca-ca.  I'm fine with Janet Reno and mourn her loss.  She was truly independent than the feces that is Loretta Lynch appointed by the worst POTUS ever, Barack Obama.  Bill Clinton learned from what happened with Janet Reno and taught Obama his dirty tricks.
> 
> *I'm sure Janet Reno would've prosecuted Hillary Clinton back in July.*
> 
> "Ms. Reno brought a fierce independence to her job. From the FBI siege of the Branch Davidian compound in Texas to the investigation into Clinton’s sexual relationship with intern Monica Lewinsky, she was adamant that her prosecutors and agents work outside the influence of politics, media or popular opinion.
> 
> Her supporters believed she brought a heightened level of integrity and professionalism to the attorney general’s office. They admired her insistence on legal exactitude from her employees and praised her caution in prosecutions.
> 
> Ms. Reno resisted weeks of pressure to arrest Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman, waiting until she thought agents had sufficient legal justification to tie him to the 1993 World Trade Center bombings. He was later convicted.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Feb. 12, 1993, President Clinton named Janet Reno the nation's first female attorney general. (Doug Mills/AP)
> “She was a very powerful force for lawfulness,” said Walter E. Dellinger III, a Duke University law professor who served as solicitor general during Ms. Reno’s tenure. “She was always challenging to make sure there was a sound legal basis for what people were doing. *And she was adamant about separating the department from politics.*”
> 
> Business leaders criticized her lengthy prosecution of Microsoft on charges of anti-competitive violations — a case that ultimately ended in a settlement under the George W. Bush administration.
> 
> Civil libertarians took Ms. Reno to task for her handling of the espionage case against former Los Alamos National Laboratory scientist Wen Ho Lee, who was held in solitary confinement for nine months after being charged with mishandling nuclear secrets, only to be released on a lesser charge. Even Clinton said he was troubled by the case; Ms. Reno refused to apologize.
> 
> Republicans criticized her bitterly for pandering to the Clinton White House — she refused, for instance, to launch an independent investigation into whether Vice President Al Gore illegally fundraised from the White House during the 1996 Clinton-Gore reelection campaign. Democrats, meanwhile, disparaged her for abandoning her political patrons. *Ms. Reno said first lady Hillary Clinton never forgave her for authorizing an investigation into the Lewinsky affair.*"
> 
> Janet Reno, fiercely independent U.S. attorney general of 1990s, dies at 78



Lies, Lies and more lies!  You've just quoted a story from Washington Post owned by Jeff Bezos who is the Amazon CEO friend and partner of Hillary Clinton!  That's mainstream media!  Do you realize that?  The same Jeff Bezos who wouldn't permit Bob Woodward to do an investigative report on Hillary Clinton's email server scandal in order to protect his candidate Hillary Clinton! You can bet that this hogwash article of "revisionism" on Reno was pre-approved by the Clinton - Podesta camp before it ever went online.  Are you really that naive?

MSM such as Washington Post have been writing lies for Clinton camp and have lost ALL credibility or haven't you been paying attention?
*James Bond you are not!  Don't quit your day job, Bub!  *


----------



## Mrs. M.

Moonglow said:


> Mrs. M. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay- Any custody court in the country would have awarded custody of Elian to his father.
> 
> And four investigations determined the Davidians committed mass suicide.
> 
> 
> 
> Not necessarily.  The best interest of the child should have been considered first.  The American people were in favor of the boys rights to stay in America.
> 
> The truth about Waco is that if any other Attorney General under a Republican President had admitted responsibility (Janet Reno publicly admitted it and took full responsibility)  for storming Waco Compound and mass murdering 80 people including 24 children - they would have been immediately removed from office.  That didn't happen because she was working for the Clinton's.
> 
> It would be wise for the American people to remember how Janet Reno handled Waco, the targeting of Christians such as the Montana Freeman case, Oklahoma City bombing investigation and so forth.
> 
> That was under Bill Clinton's administration.  Can you imagine what Hillary's would be like?  God save us from such a day!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What gave the boy rights in the USA?
Click to expand...

The same "what" that Democrats have given to Mexican children to remain in the USA AND to allow their parents to enter / remain in the country in order to stay with them (if they so wish).  All illegal but hey!  When it is the Democrats needing votes this is the humane thing to do.  But when it is a Cuban refugee child whose mother died in the process of getting him here and his father is a communist living in Cuba - send him back!

Can you say hypocrites or should I say it for you?


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## JoeB131

Mrs. M. said:


> Not necessarily. The best interest of the child should have been considered first. The American people were in favor of the boys rights to stay in America.



1) Not true. Polls taken at the time backed Ms. Reno's position. 
Majority of Americans Back Reno's Retrieval of Elian Gonzalez

2) We don't enforce laws by polls. Legally, his father was the next of kin. Barring some kind of evidence he was abusive, there wasn't an issue here legally. 



Mrs. M. said:


> The truth about Waco is that if any other Attorney General under a Republican President had admitted responsibility (Janet Reno publicly admitted it and took full responsibility) for storming Waco Compound and mass murdering 80 people including 24 children - they would have been immediately removed from office. That didn't happen because she was working for the Clinton's.



No, it didn't happen because the Davidians killed themselves, as three investigations found. 




Mrs. M. said:


> It would be wise for the American people to remember how Janet Reno handled Waco, the targeting of Christians such as the Montana Freeman case, Oklahoma City bombing investigation and so forth.



You mean she arrested people who committed crimes?  Um, that's kind of in her job description. 



Mrs. M. said:


> That was under Bill Clinton's administration. Can you imagine what Hillary's would be like? God save us from such a day!



Still better than a guy like Trump who says he'll use the legal system to punish his enemies.


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## Mrs. M.

The Clinton's were in the White House when Elian Gonzales was taken.  What did you expect MSM to write?  Of course they lied, used fixed polling and told the story the Clinton's wanted out there, Joe.  Just like they are doing right now.  Just like old times for the Clinton's and their MSM, isn't it?  The media have been a liberal bunch for decades.  No surprise that they lie through their teeth.  So does Hillary Clinton.  Birds of a feather...

Note that is a CNN poll.  Clinton News Network, Inc.  You must be kidding me, Joe.


----------



## JoeB131

Mrs. M. said:


> The Clinton's were in the White House when Elian Gonzales was taken. What did you expect MSM to write? Of course they lied, used fixed polling and told the story the Clinton's wanted out there, Joe. Just like they are doing right now. Just like old times for the Clinton's and their MSM, isn't it? The media have been a liberal bunch for decades. No surprise that they lie through their teeth. So does Hillary Clinton. Birds of a feather...
> 
> Note that is a CNN poll. Clinton News Network, Inc. You must be kidding me, Joe.



Actually, most people I talked to at the time, you know, sane people who weren't upset that Castro spanked us in 1960, thought sending him back was the right thing. 

Again, his father had legal rights, baring any evidence of abuse or unfitness, which there was none.  

Also, I get a little sick and tired of America kow-towing the Cuban American community.


----------



## Mrs. M.

JoeB131 said:


> Mrs. M. said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Clinton's were in the White House when Elian Gonzales was taken. What did you expect MSM to write? Of course they lied, used fixed polling and told the story the Clinton's wanted out there, Joe. Just like they are doing right now. Just like old times for the Clinton's and their MSM, isn't it? The media have been a liberal bunch for decades. No surprise that they lie through their teeth. So does Hillary Clinton. Birds of a feather...
> 
> Note that is a CNN poll. Clinton News Network, Inc. You must be kidding me, Joe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, most people I talked to at the time, you know, sane people who weren't upset that Castro spanked us in 1960, thought sending him back was the right thing.
> 
> Again, his father had legal rights, baring any evidence of abuse or unfitness, which there was none.
> 
> Also, I get a little sick and tired of America kow-towing the Cuban American community.
Click to expand...


Communists are sane people?  Who knew?  Looking at the work of Mao, Kim Jong Il and his son, I'd say they are utterly insane.  Then again, I'm not a Communist like you and your candidate Mrs. Clinton.  It's a shame that the Cuban-American people are not here to read this, Joe, and see that you are sick and tired of Americans showing concern for the Cuban American Community.  

You could have been Hillary Clinton's son!   
She's sick and tired of Americans too!  
Just read Wikileaks Podesta emails!  
It's all there!


----------



## JoeB131

Mrs. M. said:


> Communists are sane people? Who knew? Looking at the work of Mao, Kim Jong Il and his son, I'd say they are utterly insane. Then again, I'm not a Communist like you and your candidate Mrs. Clinton.



Yawn, McCarthyism died a long time ago.  



Mrs. M. said:


> It's a shame that the Cuban-American people are not here to read this, Joe, and see that you are sick and tired of Americans showing concern for the Cuban American Community.



I remember the Cubans burning American flags in Miami when they sent Elianhome. I'm all for sending the lot of them back.


----------



## LA RAM FAN

james bond said:


> RIP Janet Reno.  This is misleading ca-ca.  I'm fine with Janet Reno and mourn her loss.  She was truly independent than the feces that is Loretta Lynch appointed by the worst POTUS ever, Barack Obama.  Bill Clinton learned from what happened with Janet Reno and taught Obama his dirty tricks.
> 
> *I'm sure Janet Reno would've prosecuted Hillary Clinton back in July.*
> 
> "Ms. Reno brought a fierce independence to her job. From the FBI siege of the Branch Davidian compound in Texas to the investigation into Clinton’s sexual relationship with intern Monica Lewinsky, she was adamant that her prosecutors and agents work outside the influence of politics, media or popular opinion.
> 
> Her supporters believed she brought a heightened level of integrity and professionalism to the attorney general’s office. They admired her insistence on legal exactitude from her employees and praised her caution in prosecutions.
> 
> Ms. Reno resisted weeks of pressure to arrest Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman, waiting until she thought agents had sufficient legal justification to tie him to the 1993 World Trade Center bombings. He was later convicted.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Feb. 12, 1993, President Clinton named Janet Reno the nation's first female attorney general. (Doug Mills/AP)
> “She was a very powerful force for lawfulness,” said Walter E. Dellinger III, a Duke University law professor who served as solicitor general during Ms. Reno’s tenure. “She was always challenging to make sure there was a sound legal basis for what people were doing. *And she was adamant about separating the department from politics.*”
> 
> Business leaders criticized her lengthy prosecution of Microsoft on charges of anti-competitive violations — a case that ultimately ended in a settlement under the George W. Bush administration.
> 
> Civil libertarians took Ms. Reno to task for her handling of the espionage case against former Los Alamos National Laboratory scientist Wen Ho Lee, who was held in solitary confinement for nine months after being charged with mishandling nuclear secrets, only to be released on a lesser charge. Even Clinton said he was troubled by the case; Ms. Reno refused to apologize.
> 
> Republicans criticized her bitterly for pandering to the Clinton White House — she refused, for instance, to launch an independent investigation into whether Vice President Al Gore illegally fundraised from the White House during the 1996 Clinton-Gore reelection campaign. Democrats, meanwhile, disparaged her for abandoning her political patrons. *Ms. Reno said first lady Hillary Clinton never forgave her for authorizing an investigation into the Lewinsky affair.*"
> 
> Janet Reno, fiercely independent U.S. attorney general of 1990s, dies at 78


i know james bond is trying to be funny and not sincere in saying rest in peace Janet.lol


----------



## LA RAM FAN

Mrs. M. said:


> james bond said:
> 
> 
> 
> RIP Janet Reno.  This is misleading ca-ca.  I'm fine with Janet Reno and mourn her loss.  She was truly independent than the feces that is Loretta Lynch appointed by the worst POTUS ever, Barack Obama.  Bill Clinton learned from what happened with Janet Reno and taught Obama his dirty tricks.
> 
> *I'm sure Janet Reno would've prosecuted Hillary Clinton back in July.*
> 
> "Ms. Reno brought a fierce independence to her job. From the FBI siege of the Branch Davidian compound in Texas to the investigation into Clinton’s sexual relationship with intern Monica Lewinsky, she was adamant that her prosecutors and agents work outside the influence of politics, media or popular opinion.
> 
> Her supporters believed she brought a heightened level of integrity and professionalism to the attorney general’s office. They admired her insistence on legal exactitude from her employees and praised her caution in prosecutions.
> 
> Ms. Reno resisted weeks of pressure to arrest Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman, waiting until she thought agents had sufficient legal justification to tie him to the 1993 World Trade Center bombings. He was later convicted.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Feb. 12, 1993, President Clinton named Janet Reno the nation's first female attorney general. (Doug Mills/AP)
> “She was a very powerful force for lawfulness,” said Walter E. Dellinger III, a Duke University law professor who served as solicitor general during Ms. Reno’s tenure. “She was always challenging to make sure there was a sound legal basis for what people were doing. *And she was adamant about separating the department from politics.*”
> 
> Business leaders criticized her lengthy prosecution of Microsoft on charges of anti-competitive violations — a case that ultimately ended in a settlement under the George W. Bush administration.
> 
> Civil libertarians took Ms. Reno to task for her handling of the espionage case against former Los Alamos National Laboratory scientist Wen Ho Lee, who was held in solitary confinement for nine months after being charged with mishandling nuclear secrets, only to be released on a lesser charge. Even Clinton said he was troubled by the case; Ms. Reno refused to apologize.
> 
> Republicans criticized her bitterly for pandering to the Clinton White House — she refused, for instance, to launch an independent investigation into whether Vice President Al Gore illegally fundraised from the White House during the 1996 Clinton-Gore reelection campaign. Democrats, meanwhile, disparaged her for abandoning her political patrons. *Ms. Reno said first lady Hillary Clinton never forgave her for authorizing an investigation into the Lewinsky affair.*"
> 
> Janet Reno, fiercely independent U.S. attorney general of 1990s, dies at 78
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lies, Lies and more lies!  You've just quoted a story from Washington Post owned by Jeff Bezos who is the Amazon CEO friend and partner of Hillary Clinton!  That's mainstream media!  Do you realize that?  The same Jeff Bezos who wouldn't permit Bob Woodward to do an investigative report on Hillary Clinton's email server scandal in order to protect his candidate Hillary Clinton! You can bet that this hogwash article of "revisionism" on Reno was pre-approved by the Clinton - Podesta camp before it ever went online.  Are you really that naive?
> 
> MSM such as Washington Post have been writing lies for Clinton camp and have lost ALL credibility or haven't you been paying attention?
> *James Bond you are not!  Don't quit your day job, Bub!  *
Click to expand...


yeah this troll is probably another paid shill that has penetrated this forum the fact he is not only posting lies but has the audacity to say RIP to that mass murderer of children.


----------



## S.J.




----------



## james bond

S.J. said:


>



Check snopes.


----------



## S.J.

james bond said:


> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Check snopes.
Click to expand...

For what?


----------



## MikeK

JoeB131 said:


> [...]
> 
> And four investigations determined the Davidians committed mass suicide.


With the vigorous provocation and assistance of the BATF and FBI/HRT.


----------



## MikeK

It is said if one cannot say something good about the dead it's best to say nothing at all.

Okay.  The degenerate bitch, Reno, is dead -- and that's good.  Too bad she didn't suffer longer.


----------



## james bond

S.J. said:


> james bond said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Check snopes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> For what?
Click to expand...


For your meme.  Snope it.


----------



## S.J.

james bond said:


> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> james bond said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> S.J. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Check snopes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> For what?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> For your meme.  Snope it.
Click to expand...

Snopes has no credibility.  They're a tool of the left, everybody knows that.


----------



## LA RAM FAN

MikeK said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> [...]
> 
> And four investigations determined the Davidians committed mass suicide.
> 
> 
> 
> With the vigorous provocation and assistance of the BATF and FBI/HRT.
Click to expand...


Joe is such a stupid fuck,he actually believes the governments version of events that bin ladin and 19 muslins were behind the attacks even though the government failed to prove it.


----------



## LA RAM FAN

MikeK said:


> It is said if one cannot say something good about the dead it's best to say nothing at all.
> 
> Okay.  The degenerate bitch, Reno, is dead -- and that's good.  Too bad she didn't suffer longer.


amen to that.


----------



## MikeK

JoeB131 said:


> [...]
> 
> And four investigations determined the Davidians committed mass suicide.


Even if this were true, which there is plenty of evidence that says it is not, *knowing* there were 21 innocent children in that building, some as young as two, little tots, the feds went about deliberately provoking the Davidians, defying a known psychos threat to commit mass suicide.  Then they broke through a wall, filled the building with flammable tear gas, which they followed with gas canisters which burn off at 3000f. 

Do you disagree that the first concern of Clinton, Reno, and every federal agent involved in that disgraceful operation should have been the safety of those children -- who effectively were hostages of an irrational cult? 

Whether the Davidians or the feds brought about the horrible deaths of those children, is there any way to justify it?


----------



## JoeB131

MikeK said:


> With the vigorous provocation and assistance of the BATF and FBI/HRT.



Maybe.  But you know what, they had 51 days to think about it.  And they chose mass suicide, anyway.  Then again these were people who were letting Koresh have sex with their kids.


----------



## JoeB131

MikeK said:


> Even if this were true, which there is plenty of evidence that says it is not, *knowing* there were 21 innocent children in that building, some as young as two, little tots, the feds went about deliberately provoking the Davidians, defying a known psychos threat to commit mass suicide. Then they broke through a wall, filled the building with flammable tear gas, which they followed with gas canisters which burn off at 3000f.
> 
> Do you disagree that the first concern of Clinton, Reno, and every federal agent involved in that disgraceful operation should have been the safety of those children -- who effectively were hostages of an irrational cult?
> 
> Whether the Davidians or the feds brought about the horrible deaths of those children, is there any way to justify it?



There's no evidence that says that there is not. 

So leaving the children with a known pedophile in unsanitary and unsafe conditions until he decided to give up was a better idea?  

Maybe. Easy to Monday morning quarterback. 

end of the day, it was Koresh who made the decision to escalate, not the ATF or FBI.


----------



## MikeK

JoeB131 said:


> There's no evidence that says that there is not.


There is plenty of evidence if you'd care to make an effort to find it.  One place to start is a book called, _Ashes of Waco,_ by Dick Reavis.  He is a lawyer who took a personal interest in that stand-off and made a determined study of every aspect, which he details in his book and provides documentation for all of his findings -- which amount to an indictment of Bill Clinton, Janet Reno, and the federal agents who performed disgracefully at Waco.  You can get this book, along with several others which are also very informative, from Amazon.

You can also educate yourself a bit via Google research.  Hopefully your mind is not closed to anything that runs counter to what you've been brainwashed to believe.  Because you obviously don't know what you are talking about.



> So leaving the children with a known pedophile in unsanitary and unsafe conditions until he decided to give up was a better idea?


One of the things you can learn by researching the facts in this horrible example of federal brutality is the local Sheriff at Waco, Jack Harwell, was called upon to investigate the child molestation and abuse complaints, which were made by the jealous husband of one of Davidian women who had taken up with Koresh -- and which the FBI was only too happy to exaggerate and propagate.  Their effort has been eminently successful in your example.

Harwell did conduct a thorough investigation and found the complaints unfounded.  He turned the matter over to the Texas Department of Social Services which also conducted its own investigation and, likewise, found that the children were healthy, happy, homeschooled and living with loving and caring parents.



> end of the day, it was Koresh who made the decision to escalate, not the ATF or FBI.


You will be interested to find that a Texas court acquitted all of the Waco survivors of murder in the killing of the five BATF raiders -- because the raid was determined to be unlawful and that the Davidians had a right under Texas Penal Law to defend themselves against the armed, masked raiders.  (The fact that the raid was unlawful is why the FBI was brought in to replace BATF.)

That's just for openers.  You also will find that the Press was denied access to Koresh who repeatedly asked to speak with reporters, either by phone or in person.  The press was isolated from the area of the stand-off at a location one mile distant.  One reporter who tried to gain access was arrested.  Every bit of the information you've based your judgments on was spoon-fed to the public by the feds.  There is a multitude of important facts which were kept from the public.

If you take the time to research you also will find that the affidavit from which the warrant used by ATF to conduct that excessive and wholly unnecessary raid was filled with lies, distortions and erroneous charges.  I'm surprised the judge who issued that warrant has not been brought to trial or demanded the arrest of the agents responsible for the affidavit.  That raid was unlawful from top to bottom.

You've been duped.  But like many others who seem to worship authority, you simply can't bring yourself to believe the epitome of the law-enforcement bureaucracy could be so morally corrupt.  But I am personally related (through marriage) to a former FBI agent (from the New York City Field Office) who would tell you point blank that he was both ashamed and outraged by the performance of the BATF and the FBI/HRT _(Hostage "Rescue" Team)_ which was in place at Waco.  He would emphatically inform you that this unit does not represent the rank and file of FBI agents, many of whom share his feelings.

Bottom line:  Nothing can justify the deaths of those 21 children.  Nothing.  What happened at Waco is an American disgrace.


----------



## JoeB131

MikeK said:


> There is plenty of evidence if you'd care to make an effort to find it. One place to start is a book called, _Ashes of Waco,_ by Dick Reavis. He is a lawyer who took a personal interest in that stand-off and made a determined study of every aspect, which he details in his book and provides documentation for all of his findings -- which amount to an indictment of Bill Clinton, Janet Reno, and the federal agents who performed disgracefully at Waco. You can get this book, along with several others which are also very informative, from Amazon.



When I used to be a conservative, I listened to all that propaganda.  

Now. I simply don't care.  Fuck the Davidians. They could have walked out with their hands up at any time.  It amazes me you Wingnuts who justify any thug cop who shoots a black child playing with a toy will go on and on about these fucked up, child-molesting, meth-dealing, gun-happy cultists who would rather burn their children alive than turn in their kiddy-diddling Messiah.


----------



## JoeB131

MikeK said:


> One of the things you can learn by researching the facts in this horrible example of federal brutality is the local Sheriff at Waco, Jack Harwell, was called upon to investigate the child molestation and abuse complaints, which were made by the jealous husband of one of Davidian women who had taken up with Koresh -- and which the FBI was only too happy to exaggerate and propagate. Their effort has been eminently successful in your example.



Michelle Jones was 12 years old when Koresh started fucking her.  He fathered a total of three children on her.  

Secrets of the Cult:  The Messiah of Waco

Seriously, go fuck yourself.


----------



## LA RAM FAN

MikeK said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> There's no evidence that says that there is not.
> 
> 
> 
> There is plenty of evidence if you'd care to make an effort to find it.  One place to start is a book called, _Ashes of Waco,_ by Dick Reavis.  He is a lawyer who took a personal interest in that stand-off and made a determined study of every aspect, which he details in his book and provides documentation for all of his findings -- which amount to an indictment of Bill Clinton, Janet Reno, and the federal agents who performed disgracefully at Waco.  You can get this book, along with several others which are also very informative, from Amazon.
> 
> You can also educate yourself a bit via Google research.  Hopefully your mind is not closed to anything that runs counter to what you've been brainwashed to believe.  Because you obviously don't know what you are talking about.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So leaving the children with a known pedophile in unsanitary and unsafe conditions until he decided to give up was a better idea?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> One of the things you can learn by researching the facts in this horrible example of federal brutality is the local Sheriff at Waco, Jack Harwell, was called upon to investigate the child molestation and abuse complaints, which were made by the jealous husband of one of Davidian women who had taken up with Koresh -- and which the FBI was only too happy to exaggerate and propagate.  Their effort has been eminently successful in your example.
> 
> Harwell did conduct a thorough investigation and found the complaints unfounded.  He turned the matter over to the Texas Department of Social Services which also conducted its own investigation and, likewise, found that the children were healthy, happy, homeschooled and living with loving and caring parents.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> end of the day, it was Koresh who made the decision to escalate, not the ATF or FBI.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You will be interested to find that a Texas court acquitted all of the Waco survivors of murder in the killing of the five BATF raiders -- because the raid was determined to be unlawful and that the Davidians had a right under Texas Penal Law to defend themselves against the armed, masked raiders.  (The fact that the raid was unlawful is why the FBI was brought in to replace BATF.)
> 
> That's just for openers.  You also will find that the Press was denied access to Koresh who repeatedly asked to speak with reporters, either by phone or in person.  The press was isolated from the area of the stand-off at a location one mile distant.  One reporter who tried to gain access was arrested.  Every bit of the information you've based your judgments on was spoon-fed to the public by the feds.  There is a multitude of important facts which were kept from the public.
> 
> If you take the time to research you also will find that the affidavit from which the warrant used by ATF to conduct that excessive and wholly unnecessary raid was filled with lies, distortions and erroneous charges.  I'm surprised the judge who issued that warrant has not been brought to trial or demanded the arrest of the agents responsible for the affidavit.  That raid was unlawful from top to bottom.
> 
> You've been duped.  But like many others who seem to worship authority, you simply can't bring yourself to believe the epitome of the law-enforcement bureaucracy could be so morally corrupt.  But I am personally related (through marriage) to a former FBI agent (from the New York City Field Office) who would tell you point blank that he was both ashamed and outraged by the performance of the BATF and the FBI/HRT _(Hostage "Rescue" Team)_ which was in place at Waco.  He would emphatically inform you that this unit does not represent the rank and file of FBI agents, many of whom share his feelings.
> 
> Bottom line:  Nothing can justify the deaths of those 21 children.  Nothing.  What happened at Waco is an American disgrace.
Click to expand...



the troll obviously wants to stay brainwashed and is too afraid to pick up the book and read it,doesnt want to see facts that dont go along with the governments version of events so he wont read it and just wants to dismiss it as propaganda. Good thing he isnt your lawyer,he would lose every case for you refusing to try and counter the evidence his opponent lawyer would present in court.

Unfortantely he is so brainwashed by the government and closed minded to how corrupt they are he seriously thinks Bin Laden and 19 muslims were behind the 9/11 attacks even though the government had failed to prove it and refuses to look at the evidence that it was an inside job.

He is so far gone brainwashed he obviously believes we live in a free country and our government is there to serve us and uphold the constitution.

He wont deal with facts that 9/11 was an inside job either.he wont read this book either since it shoots down the lies of the government and proves it indeed was an inside job.
https://www.amazon.com/Debunking-11-Mechanics-Defenders-Conspiracy/dp/156656686X&tag=ff0d01-20


----------



## LA RAM FAN

JoeB131 said:


> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> One of the things you can learn by researching the facts in this horrible example of federal brutality is the local Sheriff at Waco, Jack Harwell, was called upon to investigate the child molestation and abuse complaints, which were made by the jealous husband of one of Davidian women who had taken up with Koresh -- and which the FBI was only too happy to exaggerate and propagate. Their effort has been eminently successful in your example.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Michelle Jones was 12 years old when Koresh started fucking her.  He fathered a total of three children on her.
> 
> Secrets of the Cult:  The Messiah of Waco
> 
> Seriously, go fuck yourself.
Click to expand...


ahhh he struck a nerve I see.the truth hurts obviously the fact you are going into meltdown mode knowing you are cornered.

to your warped logic,the government could have arrested the davidians anytime they wanted to when they left the compound to go get grocerys,they had NUMEROUS chances to do so but did not.

oh and stop telling lies that the davidians started the fire,the video evidence proves you are a fucking lying troll.

slick willie Bill "I NEVER HAD SEX WITH THIS WOMAN" Clinton was caught lying twice to the american people same as you.

He went live to the american people that night saying- lie# 1 you lied about same as him saying-we did not start the fire,the davidians did.they knocked over gasoline cans and started the fire." pure BS in the fact the video evidence CLEARLY shows a tank with a flame thrower mounted on top  bulldozing the compound and shooting flames of fire onto the compound starting the fire.

Lie #2 Slick Willie lied about as well. He also went on to say- We never fired onto the compound.they fired at us,we never fired back at them. another fucking bullshit lie by the mass murderer in the fact that the video evidence also shows a helicopter hovering over the compound with a machine gunner on the side firing onto the compound firing onto innocent civilians.

oh and lastly loser,the few survivors there were said some of them came out and said dont shoot-but the ATF and FBI opened up fire on them anyways.they are such sick fucks same as clinton and reno that they went and celebrated the whole thing.

Lets see,who should people around here believe,someone like you who i have exposed as a lying troll who seems to be in love with the clintons because they lie same as you and the government despite their long history of lies,or the surviving witnesses?

forgive me for using logic and common sense but I will go with the surviving witnesses.


----------



## MikeK

JoeB131 said:


> Michelle Jones was 12 years old when Koresh started fucking her.  He fathered a total of three children on her.
> 
> Secrets of the Cult:  The Messiah of Waco
> 
> Seriously, go fuck yourself.


Did you take the time to read this notice at the bottom of your referenced article, the details of which were necessarily spoon-fed to the media by the feds -- who effectively barred access to the stand-off and any of the Davidian survivors?


*Legal Notice:** The administration of this website was taken over about  September, 2004  by Med Trans 1, Inc.. The content on this site was the work of the late Jan Groenveld, and as such, Med Trans 1, Inc. is not knowledgeable about the specific content presented on this website, nor is responsible for any inaccuracies that may be discovered.*



Again, if you wish to learn the truth about what happened at Waco, read the book I recommended to you.  Read some of the other books available on the subject.  Pay attention to the _sources_ of the information and keep in mind that the cover-up of the truth was a major federal effort.  They simply couldn't afford to let the public know the kind of evil brutality their government is capable of. 

And remember that regardless of _any_ consideration or circumstance, regardless of who was "right" and who was "wrong," nothing can justify the cruel death of those 21, innocent, helpless children.  Their safety should have been the first concern of the federal police -- whether they deliberately and brutally caused their immolation, or if they simply and consciously provoked it. 

The bottom line is the Waco Massacre was a declaration by the federal power structure, which is, _*Submit to us or we will kill you and your kids!*_ 

Which is exactly what they did.


----------



## LA RAM FAN

Again, if you wish to learn the truth about what happened at Waco, read the book I recommended to you. Read some of the other books available on the subject. Pay attention to the _sources_ of the information and keep in mind that the cover-up of the truth was a major federal effort. They simply couldn't afford to let the public know the kind of evil brutality their government is capable of. 

Like I got done saying to you,he wont read it same as he wont read that book i referenced him to take a look at since it takes him to school that 9/11 was an inside job.hee hee

I just took him to school previously that he lied saying the davidians started the fire so cant seriously believe he will read the book? he will just keep coming back doing the usual-this in defeat.


----------



## MikeK

LA RAM FAN said:


> Like I got done saying to you,he wont read it same as he wont read that book i referenced him to take a look at since it takes him to school that 9/11 was an inside job.hee hee
> 
> [...]


What do you mean by, _inside job?_


----------



## LA RAM FAN

MikeK said:


> LA RAM FAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> Like I got done saying to you,he wont read it same as he wont read that book i referenced him to take a look at since it takes him to school that 9/11 was an inside job.hee hee
> 
> [...]
> 
> 
> 
> What do you mean by, _inside job?_
Click to expand...


read my first post here on this page.

Janet Reno Dies

You been so wrapped up in your conversation with the troll you missed post#40 here of mine.

same as the lies of waco were exposed and that our corrupt government murdered those women and children and others,unless you just been listening to the CIA controlled news in the living room or the CIA controlled newspapers have been saying all these years,its well known that the CIA along with the mossad pulled off 9/11.  there have been NUMEROUS threads in the conspiracy section that have exposed that it was a joint CIA/mossad operation.

this troll wont go in that section and look at the evidence because he wont face facts that our government murders their own people everyday with events like waco and 9/11.

He wont read that book on waco you mentioned because he is closed minded and in denial. He wont read this book below either that proves beyond a doubt 9/11 was an inside job and there is no evidence that 19 muslims or bin laden were behind the attacks because he worships everything the government tells him as the absolute truth.

Nobody here has ever been able to debunk the evidence in this book that bin laden was innocent and it was a joint CIA/MOSSAD OPERATION .Not the government,not any of the paid shills on this forum like rightwinger,NOBODY. hense the term INSIDE JOB by our government who pulled it off. unless you been living on a deserted island the last 15 years,everyone knows that,all over the country and world.

https://www.amazon.com/Debunking-11-Mechanics-Defenders-Conspiracy/dp/156656686X&tag=ff0d01-20

He refuses to read this book since it shreads to pieces the lies of the government that bin laden and 19 muslims were behind the attacks and has solid concrete evidence it was a joint CIA/mossad operation.

so since he wont read that book,he sure wont ever read any of the books on waco you try to get him to.


----------



## anotherlife

She had Altzheimers and looked like a man.  How long was she I'll when she died?  How old was she when she died?


----------



## Zander

She was a mass murderer.


----------



## westwall

JoeB131 said:


> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> With the vigorous provocation and assistance of the BATF and FBI/HRT.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe.  But you know what, they had 51 days to think about it.  And they chose mass suicide, anyway.  Then again these were people who were letting Koresh have sex with their kids.
Click to expand...







I suggest you watch the Academy Award nominated documentary "Waco:The Rules of Engagement."  It lays out chapter and verse the attack, and how the Davidians did NOT commit suicide.  You won't watch because you're a brainless 'tard.  But for those who wish to actually know what happened it is an essential viewing.


Waco: The Rules of Engagement (1997) - IMDb


----------



## JoeB131

LA RAM FAN said:


> the troll obviously wants to stay brainwashed and is too afraid to pick up the book and read it,doesnt want to see facts that dont go along with the governments version of events so he wont read it and just wants to dismiss it as propaganda. Good thing he isnt your lawyer,he would lose every case for you refusing to try and counter the evidence his opponent lawyer would present in court



Guy, we had four investigations into Waco, all of which determined the Davidians killed themselves because they knew what they did to pedophiles in the Big House. 

One of them was run by John Danforth, a Republican Senator noted for his integrity and fairness.


----------



## JoeB131

westwall said:


> I suggest you watch the Academy Award nominated documentary "Waco:The Rules of Engagement." It lays out chapter and verse the attack, and how the Davidians did NOT commit suicide. You won't watch because you're a brainless 'tard. But for those who wish to actually know what happened it is an essential viewing.



Guy, when I used to be Right Wing, I read all that stuff.  

But, um, no... this website takes apart most of the crazy Gun Nut propaganda that is waco


Waco FLIR Debunked

But, hey, if child-molesting, meth-dealing, gun running cultists can't shoot federal agents just doing their jobs, are any of us truly free?


----------



## JoeB131

LA RAM FAN said:


> ahhh he struck a nerve I see.the truth hurts obviously the fact you are going into meltdown mode knowing you are cornered



I want to point out that you go into a page long screed and never address the  indisputable fact that Michelle Jones was 12 years old when Koresh started having sex with her. You go off into a discource about Clinton having sex with Monica. 



LA RAM FAN said:


> slick willie Bill "I NEVER HAD SEX WITH THIS WOMAN" Clinton was caught lying twice to the american people same as you.
> 
> He went live to the american people that night saying- lie# 1 you lied about same as him saying-we did not start the fire,the davidians did.they knocked over gasoline cans and started the fire." pure BS in the fact the video evidence CLEARLY shows a tank with a flame thrower mounted on top bulldozing the compound and shooting flames of fire onto the compound starting the fire.



Except three investigations found that wasn't the case. And, no, that APC was shooting in liquid CS. Now, I think you can make an argument that using CS at that concentration on civilians was a bad idea.  Especially since there were children present.  But if you are going to go into crazy conspiracy theories... I'm not sure there's much point talking to you. 



MikeK said:


> Did you take the time to read this notice at the bottom of your referenced article, the details of which were necessarily spoon-fed to the media by the feds -- who effectively barred access to the stand-off and any of the Davidian survivors?



Here's another one. Avoiding the subject.  How old was Michelle Jones when David Koresh starting having sex with her? 

We know she gave birth to a set of twins when she was 14, and Koresh was indisputably the father.


----------



## westwall

JoeB131 said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> I suggest you watch the Academy Award nominated documentary "Waco:The Rules of Engagement." It lays out chapter and verse the attack, and how the Davidians did NOT commit suicide. You won't watch because you're a brainless 'tard. But for those who wish to actually know what happened it is an essential viewing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Guy, when I used to be Right Wing, I read all that stuff.
> 
> But, um, no... this website takes apart most of the crazy Gun Nut propaganda that is waco
> 
> 
> Waco FLIR Debunked
> 
> But, hey, if child-molesting, meth-dealing, gun running cultists can't shoot federal agents just doing their jobs, are any of us truly free?
Click to expand...







Tell that to the 20+ children who were burned to death you fucking prick.  Koresh was an asshole.  He could have been arrested simply by knocking on the fucking door as had been done before.  The ATF wanted to make a big splash so they enacted a raid that didn't need to happen, that resulted in the needless deaths of 4 agents, and the eventual murder of 20+ children, because THOSE kids never had a choice.  Fuck you you miserable piece of shit.


----------



## JoeB131

westwall said:


> Tell that to the 20+ children who were burned to death you fucking prick. Koresh was an asshole. He could have been arrested simply by knocking on the fucking door as had been done before.



The did knock at the door.  And the Meth-dealing cultists shot at them.  Four ATF Agents died.  



westwall said:


> The ATF wanted to make a big splash so they enacted a raid that didn't need to happen, that resulted in the needless deaths of 4 agents, and the eventual murder of 20+ children, because THOSE kids never had a choice. Fuck you you miserable piece of shit.



Okay, yeah, the ATF could have done it smarter.  However, that still didn't give the Cultists the right to shoot at them. Especially since - they knew they were law enforcement. 

You know, it's hilarious that you guys will defend every trigger happy cop who blows away a 12 year old playing with a toy, but want to villify these ATF and FBI agents who were handling a bunch of freaks with kid gloves.


----------



## LA RAM FAN

JoeB131 said:


> LA RAM FAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> ahhh he struck a nerve I see.the truth hurts obviously the fact you are going into meltdown mode knowing you are cornered
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I want to point out that you go into a page long screed and never address the  indisputable fact that Michelle Jones was 12 years old when Koresh started having sex with her. You go off into a discource about Clinton having sex with Monica.
> 
> 
> 
> LA RAM FAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> slick willie Bill "I NEVER HAD SEX WITH THIS WOMAN" Clinton was caught lying twice to the american people same as you.
> 
> He went live to the american people that night saying- lie# 1 you lied about same as him saying-we did not start the fire,the davidians did.they knocked over gasoline cans and started the fire." pure BS in the fact the video evidence CLEARLY shows a tank with a flame thrower mounted on top bulldozing the compound and shooting flames of fire onto the compound starting the fire.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Except three investigations found that wasn't the case. And, no, that APC was shooting in liquid CS. Now, I think you can make an argument that using CS at that concentration on civilians was a bad idea.  Especially since there were children present.  But if you are going to go into crazy conspiracy theories... I'm not sure there's much point talking to you.
> 
> 
> 
> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did you take the time to read this notice at the bottom of your referenced article, the details of which were necessarily spoon-fed to the media by the feds -- who effectively barred access to the stand-off and any of the Davidian survivors?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Here's another one. Avoiding the subject.  How old was Michelle Jones when David Koresh starting having sex with her?
> 
> We know she gave birth to a set of twins when she was 14, and Koresh was indisputably the father.
Click to expand...


I dont bother with a retarded  prick who refuses to look at the facts that 9/11 was an inside job and there is not a shread of evidence that 19 muslims were behind it all.countless threads have been posted in the conspiracy section and have spelled it out dummies style for people like you  proving beyond a doubt it was a home grown plot carried out by the CIA.

Not my fault you refuse to read those threads and look at the facts. when you decide to do that and and stop being an arrogant prick and admit you have been wrong all these years,I may one day  pay attention to all your incoherant ramblings you stupid fuck.

You  ALSO have proven multiple times in your ramblings you are a fucking liar on the davidians starting the fire as I just proved earlier in my earlier  post that the government set fire to the compound and could have easily have avoided conflict with them by arresting them when they went out to buy grocerys.you are obviously a paid shill who has penetrated this forum. a fucking troll that westwall should be allowed to ban by the administrater here..


----------



## LA RAM FAN

westwall said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> I suggest you watch the Academy Award nominated documentary "Waco:The Rules of Engagement." It lays out chapter and verse the attack, and how the Davidians did NOT commit suicide. You won't watch because you're a brainless 'tard. But for those who wish to actually know what happened it is an essential viewing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Guy, when I used to be Right Wing, I read all that stuff.
> 
> But, um, no... this website takes apart most of the crazy Gun Nut propaganda that is waco
> 
> 
> Waco FLIR Debunked
> 
> But, hey, if child-molesting, meth-dealing, gun running cultists can't shoot federal agents just doing their jobs, are any of us truly free?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tell that to the 20+ children who were burned to death you fucking prick.  Koresh was an asshole.  He could have been arrested simply by knocking on the fucking door as had been done before.  The ATF wanted to make a big splash so they enacted a raid that didn't need to happen, that resulted in the needless deaths of 4 agents, and the eventual murder of 20+ children, because THOSE kids never had a choice.  Fuck you you miserable piece of shit.
Click to expand...



yeah thats what I was saying earlier,they had numerous chances to avoid a conflict with them that THEY started,they could have knocked on the door and they could have just arrested some of them when they were out getting grocerys as they did when they walked down to the grocery store everyday.


----------



## LA RAM FAN

westwall said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> With the vigorous provocation and assistance of the BATF and FBI/HRT.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe.  But you know what, they had 51 days to think about it.  And they chose mass suicide, anyway.  Then again these were people who were letting Koresh have sex with their kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I suggest you watch the Academy Award nominated documentary "Waco:The Rules of Engagement."  It lays out chapter and verse the attack, and how the Davidians did NOT commit suicide.  You won't watch because you're a brainless 'tard.  But for those who wish to actually know what happened it is an essential viewing.
> 
> 
> Waco: The Rules of Engagement (1997) - IMDb
Click to expand...



He wont,thats an excellent documentary indeed but this stupid fuck wont watch it.He has been given many references by many posters here of books with hard core evidence that he cowardly wont read it since he is a troll. He is a troll that has penetrated this forum here to defend every action of our corrupt government obviously.


----------



## LA RAM FAN

Zander said:


> She was a mass murderer.



the understatement of the year.


----------



## westwall

JoeB131 said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tell that to the 20+ children who were burned to death you fucking prick. Koresh was an asshole. He could have been arrested simply by knocking on the fucking door as had been done before.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The did knock at the door.  And the Meth-dealing cultists shot at them.  Four ATF Agents died.
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> The ATF wanted to make a big splash so they enacted a raid that didn't need to happen, that resulted in the needless deaths of 4 agents, and the eventual murder of 20+ children, because THOSE kids never had a choice. Fuck you you miserable piece of shit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Okay, yeah, the ATF could have done it smarter.  However, that still didn't give the Cultists the right to shoot at them. Especially since - they knew they were law enforcement.
> 
> You know, it's hilarious that you guys will defend every trigger happy cop who blows away a 12 year old playing with a toy, but want to villify these ATF and FBI agents who were handling a bunch of freaks with kid gloves.
Click to expand...







Give it up idiot.  Forever after on this forum you are going to be known as the asshole who says it's OK to incinerate children who have no power.  Fuck you and your bullshit nazi philosophy.  You disgust me.


----------



## LA RAM FAN

MikeK said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> [...]
> 
> And four investigations determined the Davidians committed mass suicide.
> 
> 
> 
> Even if this were true, which there is plenty of evidence that says it is not, *knowing* there were 21 innocent children in that building, some as young as two, little tots, the feds went about deliberately provoking the Davidians, defying a known psychos threat to commit mass suicide.  Then they broke through a wall, filled the building with flammable tear gas, which they followed with gas canisters which burn off at 3000f.
> 
> Do you disagree that the first concern of Clinton, Reno, and every federal agent involved in that disgraceful operation should have been the safety of those children -- who effectively were hostages of an irrational cult?
> 
> Whether the Davidians or the feds brought about the horrible deaths of those children, is there any way to justify it?
Click to expand...



for sure,the clintons and Reno if they had any humanity they would have been concerned of the safety of the women and children in there but they are mass murderers same as their pals the Bushs so they did not give a shit about murdering all those children as has been proved throughout this entire thread by you,myself and a few others.


----------



## LA RAM FAN

westwall said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tell that to the 20+ children who were burned to death you fucking prick. Koresh was an asshole. He could have been arrested simply by knocking on the fucking door as had been done before.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The did knock at the door.  And the Meth-dealing cultists shot at them.  Four ATF Agents died.
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> The ATF wanted to make a big splash so they enacted a raid that didn't need to happen, that resulted in the needless deaths of 4 agents, and the eventual murder of 20+ children, because THOSE kids never had a choice. Fuck you you miserable piece of shit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Okay, yeah, the ATF could have done it smarter.  However, that still didn't give the Cultists the right to shoot at them. Especially since - they knew they were law enforcement.
> 
> You know, it's hilarious that you guys will defend every trigger happy cop who blows away a 12 year old playing with a toy, but want to villify these ATF and FBI agents who were handling a bunch of freaks with kid gloves.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> None of us should bother with this motherfucker shill anymore,he just wants reactions out of us.
> 
> 
> 
> Give it up idiot.  Forever after on this forum you are going to be known as the asshole who says it's OK to incinerate children who have no power.  Fuck you and your bullshit nazi philosophy.  You disgust me.
Click to expand...



None of us should bother with this motherfucker shill anymore,he just wants reactions out of us.I used to enjoy his posts because to his credit he did expose the myth of Reagan,that he was not the great president our corrupt government and media have painted him to be but now after this,he has lost all his credibility.That was the only good deed he ever did in the past was posting the truth about Reagan how he betrayed the middle and lower class famiilys contrary to the myth of our government. I am not going to bother with this shill anymore myself.


----------



## JoeB131

LA RAM FAN said:


> I dont bother with a retarded prick who refuses to look at the facts that 9/11 was an inside job and there is not a shread of evidence that 19 muslims were behind it all.countless threads have been posted in the conspiracy section and have spelled it out dummies style for people like you proving beyond a doubt it was a home grown plot carried out by the CIA.
> 
> Not my fault you refuse to read those threads and look at the facts. when you decide to do that and and stop being an arrogant prick and admit you have been wrong all these years,I may one day pay attention to all your incoherant ramblings you stupid fuck.



Okay, if you are really the kind of crazy who thinks that 9/11 was an inside job, I don't think there's much hope for you.


----------



## JoeB131

westwall said:


> Give it up idiot. Forever after on this forum you are going to be known as the asshole who says it's OK to incinerate children who have no power. Fuck you and your bullshit nazi philosophy. You disgust me.



You are the one defending pedophile cultists, not me.  

The Davidians killed themselves.  No great loss.  



LA RAM FAN said:


> yeah thats what I was saying earlier,they had numerous chances to avoid a conflict with them that THEY started,they could have knocked on the door and they could have just arrested some of them when they were out getting grocerys as they did when they walked down to the grocery store everyday.



again, they walked up to the door.  The Davidians knew they were ATF Agents.  They got into a firefight, anyway.


----------



## westwall

JoeB131 said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Give it up idiot. Forever after on this forum you are going to be known as the asshole who says it's OK to incinerate children who have no power. Fuck you and your bullshit nazi philosophy. You disgust me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are the one defending pedophile cultists, not me.
> 
> The Davidians killed themselves.  No great loss.
> 
> 
> 
> LA RAM FAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> yeah thats what I was saying earlier,they had numerous chances to avoid a conflict with them that THEY started,they could have knocked on the door and they could have just arrested some of them when they were out getting grocerys as they did when they walked down to the grocery store everyday.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> again, they walked up to the door.  The Davidians knew they were ATF Agents.  They got into a firefight, anyway.
Click to expand...






Sure thing asshole.  You asshats are all the same.  Burn and destroy any that you disagree with.  Fuck you.

Oh yeah, as far as the front door go's, the surviving davidians ALL say that the ATF fired first.  A brainless asshat like you doesn't have the intellectual honesty to ask yourself "gee, I wonder what happened to the evidence of that", and then you find out that the door was magically "disappeared".  Probably THE single most valuable piece of evidence, and we know it survived thanks to news video, and the ATF somehow manages to lose it.  

Once again.  Fuck you you murderous, disgusting, piece of filth.


----------



## LA RAM FAN

westwall said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Give it up idiot. Forever after on this forum you are going to be known as the asshole who says it's OK to incinerate children who have no power. Fuck you and your bullshit nazi philosophy. You disgust me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are the one defending pedophile cultists, not me.
> 
> The Davidians killed themselves.  No great loss.
> 
> 
> 
> LA RAM FAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> yeah thats what I was saying earlier,they had numerous chances to avoid a conflict with them that THEY started,they could have knocked on the door and they could have just arrested some of them when they were out getting grocerys as they did when they walked down to the grocery store everyday.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> again, they walked up to the door.  The Davidians knew they were ATF Agents.  They got into a firefight, anyway.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure thing asshole.  You asshats are all the same.  Burn and destroy any that you disagree with.  Fuck you.
> 
> Oh yeah, as far as the front door go's, the surviving davidians ALL say that the ATF fired first.  A brainless asshat like you doesn't have the intellectual honesty to ask yourself "gee, I wonder what happened to the evidence of that", and then you find out that the door was magically "disappeared".  Probably THE single most valuable piece of evidence, and we know it survived thanks to news video, and the ATF somehow manages to lose it.
> 
> Once again.  Fuck you you murderous, disgusting, piece of filth.
Click to expand...


He has exposed himself as the lying stupid fuck troll he is with his earlier post when he said  the davidians committed suicide.

yeah they committed suicide thats why there were suvivors and all those few survivors lied telling independent investigaters like the ones that did WACO rules of engagaement that the ATF gunned them down when they came out with their heads on top of their heads yelling dont shoot.all those survivors lied and the ATF were honest kind people who were incapable of lying same as Bill Clinton. murderous disgusting piece of filth indeed. thats being way too kind to this motherfucker troll.

 Had he ever bothered to look at many of the videos out there he would have seen that one of the army tanks had a flame thrower mounted on top and they fired flames onto the compound which exposed one of many of clintons lies one of them being where he said the davidians started the fire.

as i said,nobody should bother with this evil fucker who enjoys watching our government murder children.He is just on here posting to get a reaction out of us all obviously.this is advise we should all follow-


----------



## MikeK

JoeB131 said:


> [...]
> 
> I want to point out that you go into a page long screed and never address the  indisputable fact that Michelle Jones was 12 years old when Koresh started having sex with her. You go off into a discource about Clinton having sex with Monica.
> 
> [...]


Even if this were true, do you believe it justified the steps taken by the feds which jeopardized the lives of 21 innocent, helpless children?  Because whether Koresh started that fire, or the reckless actions of the HRT *provoked* it, it was entirely preventable.

Keep in mind the Davidians were not a fugitive mob of dangerously violent criminals.  The local sheriff and all of their neighbors said the Davidians kept mostly to themselves but were friendly, helpful, and peaceful people.  So why was it so important to do what was done to them?  They didn't harm anyone.


----------



## LA RAM FAN

JoeB131 said:


> LA RAM FAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> the troll obviously wants to stay brainwashed and is too afraid to pick up the book and read it,doesnt want to see facts that dont go along with the governments version of events so he wont read it and just wants to dismiss it as propaganda. Good thing he isnt your lawyer,he would lose every case for you refusing to try and counter the evidence his opponent lawyer would present in court
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Guy, we had four investigations into Waco, all of which determined the Davidians killed themselves because they knew what they did to pedophiles in the Big House.
> 
> One of them was run by John Danforth, a Republican Senator noted for his integrity and fairness.
Click to expand...




MikeK said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> [...]
> 
> I want to point out that you go into a page long screed and never address the  indisputable fact that Michelle Jones was 12 years old when Koresh started having sex with her. You go off into a discource about Clinton having sex with Monica.
> 
> [...]
> 
> 
> 
> Even if this were true, do you believe it justified the steps taken by the feds which jeopardized the lives of 21 innocent, helpless children?  Because whether Koresh started that fire, or the reckless actions of the HRT *provoked* it, it was entirely preventable.
> 
> Keep in mind the Davidians were not a fugitive mob of dangerously violent criminals.  The local sheriff and all of their neighbors said the Davidians kept mostly to themselves but were friendly, helpful, and peaceful people.  So why was it so important to do what was done to them?  They didn't harm anyone.
Click to expand...


whether Koresh started the fire? seriously dude? Although you have looked into this obviously and done a lot of research no doubt doesnt sound like you have seen that video I have mentioned many times "just to watch it go ignored by him" where it shows an army tank with a flame thrower mounted on top STARTING the fire shooting flames onto the compound? so there is obviously no question clinton and the government lied and that our government started the fire.


----------



## MikeK

LA RAM FAN said:


> whether Koresh started the fire? seriously dude? Although you have looked into this obviously and done a lot of research no doubt doesnt sound like you have seen that video I have mentioned many times "just to watch it go ignored by him" where it shows an army tank with a flame thrower mounted on top STARTING the fire shooting flames onto the compound? so there is obviously no question clinton and the government lied and that our government started the fire.


My point is even if Koresh _did_ start the fire, the fact is the feds had stated many times they believed Koresh was a dangerous psychopath -- plus the feds knew there were dozens of innocent kids in that building, yet they took steps they _had_ to know would provoke him.

So either way the feds are responsible for the death of those kids.  They behaved like cold-blooded Nazis in the Warsaw Ghetto, showing *absolutely no concern* for the safety of innocent children.

I'm not interested in arguing who, what and how that fire actually started.  My point is all the feds had to do to prevent it was to back off and wait.  But they chose to assert their authority with no regard for the likely consequences.


----------



## JoeB131

westwall said:


> Sure thing asshole. You asshats are all the same. Burn and destroy any that you disagree with. Fuck you.
> 
> Oh yeah, as far as the front door go's, the surviving davidians ALL say that the ATF fired first.



Because drug addled cultists are such reliable witnesses. 



westwall said:


> A brainless asshat like you doesn't have the intellectual honesty to ask yourself "gee, I wonder what happened to the evidence of that", and then you find out that the door was magically "disappeared". Probably THE single most valuable piece of evidence, and we know it survived thanks to news video, and the ATF somehow manages to lose it.



Wait a minute. Wasn't that door attached to a building that burned to the ground?  Also, how does a door tell you who shot first? I mean, were the bullet holes time stamped? 



LA RAM FAN said:


> yeah they committed suicide thats why there were suvivors and all those few survivors lied telling independent investigaters like the ones that did WACO rules of engagaement that the ATF gunned them down when they came out with their heads on top of their heads



again, how reliable are cultist. Why were there survivors? Because maybe some of them gave in to their human instinct to survive.   You see, if it WASN'T a mass suicide, there'd have been MORE survivors, not less. 

You would also have to believe that every last FBI agent on site was a murderous crazy person who would fire on women and children trying to get out of a burning building. And not a one of them has had a pang of conscience over the last 25 years.  

Or you can apply Occam's razor that the Davidians were just another cult where they all killed themselves.  Not the first, not the last.


----------



## JoeB131

MikeK said:


> My point is even if Koresh _did_ start the fire, the fact is the feds had stated many times they believed Koresh was a dangerous psychopath -- plus the feds knew there were dozens of innocent kids in that building, yet they took steps they _had_ to know would provoke him.
> 
> So either way the feds are responsible for the death of those kids. They behaved like cold-blooded Nazis in the Warsaw Ghetto, showing *absolutely no concern* for the safety of innocent children.
> 
> I'm not interested in arguing who, what and how that fire actually started. My point is all the feds had to do to prevent it was to back off and wait. But they chose to assert their authority with no regard for the likely consequences.



So they wait and everyone in the building drinks poisoned Koolaid! You see, that's what they were working with... They were worried they were looking at another Jonestown. 



MikeK said:


> Keep in mind the Davidians were not a fugitive mob of dangerously violent criminals. The local sheriff and all of their neighbors said the Davidians kept mostly to themselves but were friendly, helpful, and peaceful people. So why was it so important to do what was done to them? They didn't harm anyone.



Okay, buddy. Let's look at the "non-violent" Branch Davidians. Besides the shootout with ATF agents that left four Agents and six cultists dead, the Davidians had been involved in an internal squabble for leadership, which involved a gun fight in 1987 between rival factions.


----------



## MikeK

JoeB131 said:


> [...]
> 
> Because drug addled cultists are such reliable witnesses.
> 
> [...]


Where did the notion that the Davidians were "drug-addled cultists" come from?  If you'd like to speak intelligently on this subject you should spend some time learning something about it.  The Davidians were not drug users.  Aside from their unusual religious conviction they were relatively normal individuals.  Their ranks included two lawyers, two school-teachers and for the most part ordinary working class people, most of whom were engaged in one way or another in a mail-order gun business. Seven of them held valid FFL (Federal Firearms Licenses) and were accomplished gunsmiths.  

One thing you should know is the BATF had planted an undercover agent in the Davidian residence for several weeks before pulling that unnecessary and   largely unlawful raid.  If there was any drug activity in that residence don't you think the DEA would have been involved?


----------



## numan

JoeB131 said:


> LA RAM FAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> I dont bother with a retarded prick who refuses to look at the facts that 9/11 was an inside job and there is not a shread of evidence that 19 muslims were behind it all.countless threads have been posted in the conspiracy section and have spelled it out dummies style for people like you proving beyond a doubt it was a home grown plot carried out by the CIA.
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, if you are really the kind of crazy who thinks that 9/11 was an inside job, I don't think there's much hope for you.
Click to expand...

If you are the kind of crazy who *doesn't* think 9/11 was an inside job, and that free fall speeds don't contradict the Law of Conservation of Momentum, then there is not much hope for you.
.


----------



## MikeK

JoeB131 said:


> [...]
> 
> Okay, buddy. Let's look at the "non-violent" Branch Davidians. Besides the shootout with ATF agents that left four Agents and six cultists dead, the Davidians had been involved in an internal squabble for leadership, which involved a gun fight in 1987 between rival factions.



[...][/quote]
Because the Davidians were capable of defensive violence does not mean they were a violence-prone people.  In fact the local Sheriff, Jack Harwell along with every one of their neighbors insisted the Davidians were friendly, helpful, peaceful people who bothered no one.  

Re: the "shootout" with the ATF raiders, here is just one more significant thing you are blissfully ignorant of:  

*The Firearm Owners Protection Act of 1986 recognizes the Common Law rule of self-defense, which is that the defender must have reasonable belief that the circumstances of immediate danger warrant self-defense.  And Section 9.31 of the Texas Penal Codes states: "The use of force to resist an arrest or search is justified: (1) If, before the actor offers any resistance, the peace officer (or persons acting at his direction) uses or attempts to use greater force than necessary to make the arrest or search; and (2) When and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the peace officer's (or other person's) use or attempted use of greater force than necessary."*

Eleven of the Davidians who survived the fire were tried in a Texas state court for complicity in the "murder" of the five ATF raiders -- and they were acquitted on the basis of the above.

If you were willing to spend some time researching the Waco Massacre you would learn how and why that raid was unlawful and unnecessary.  The raid's title was "Showtime" and it was conducted as a publicity stunt shortly prior to a Congressional budgetary hearing.  It is commonly known that if ATF chose to they could have arrested Koresh any morning Monday to Friday when he walked to the local Post Office to get his business mail.


----------



## JoeB131

MikeK said:


> Where did the notion that the Davidians were "drug-addled cultists" come from? If you'd like to speak intelligently on this subject you should spend some time learning something about it. The Davidians were not drug users. Aside from their unusual religious conviction they were relatively normal individuals. Their ranks included two lawyers, two school-teachers and for the most part ordinary working class people, most of whom were engaged in one way or another in a mail-order gun business. Seven of them held valid FFL (Federal Firearms Licenses) and were accomplished gunsmiths.
> 
> One thing you should know is the BATF had planted an undercover agent in the Davidian residence for several weeks before pulling that unnecessary and largely unlawful raid. If there was any drug activity in that residence don't you think the DEA would have been involved?



the leader of the Davidians before Koresh, was a meth dealer.  The presense of a meth lab was mentioned in the ATF"s warrant. 

No, normal people don't let the cult leader fuck their kids.


----------



## JoeB131

numan said:


> If you are the kind of crazy who *doesn't* think 9/11 was an inside job, and that free fall speeds don't contradict the Law of Conservation of Momentum, then there is not much hope for you.



wow, it's fun to watch nuts pretend they understand science.


----------



## JoeB131

MikeK said:


> Eleven of the Davidians who survived the fire were tried in a Texas state court for complicity in the "murder" of the five ATF raiders -- and they were acquitted on the basis of the above.



That's not true, either.  

Don't Be Tempted To Misinterpret Davidian Verdict


_Five of the defendants were convicted of voluntary manslaughter and two more of weapons charges, but the acquittals of the more serious charges were hailed as proof that law-enforcement officials had no right to raid the cult compound._


----------



## westwall

JoeB131 said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sure thing asshole. You asshats are all the same. Burn and destroy any that you disagree with. Fuck you.
> 
> Oh yeah, as far as the front door go's, the surviving davidians ALL say that the ATF fired first.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because drug addled cultists are such reliable witnesses.
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> A brainless asshat like you doesn't have the intellectual honesty to ask yourself "gee, I wonder what happened to the evidence of that", and then you find out that the door was magically "disappeared". Probably THE single most valuable piece of evidence, and we know it survived thanks to news video, and the ATF somehow manages to lose it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wait a minute. Wasn't that door attached to a building that burned to the ground?  Also, how does a door tell you who shot first? I mean, were the bullet holes time stamped?
> 
> 
> 
> LA RAM FAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> yeah they committed suicide thats why there were suvivors and all those few survivors lied telling independent investigaters like the ones that did WACO rules of engagaement that the ATF gunned them down when they came out with their heads on top of their heads
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> again, how reliable are cultist. Why were there survivors? Because maybe some of them gave in to their human instinct to survive.   You see, if it WASN'T a mass suicide, there'd have been MORE survivors, not less.
> 
> You would also have to believe that every last FBI agent on site was a murderous crazy person who would fire on women and children trying to get out of a burning building. And not a one of them has had a pang of conscience over the last 25 years.
> 
> Or you can apply Occam's razor that the Davidians were just another cult where they all killed themselves.  Not the first, not the last.
Click to expand...






No, the building did not burn to the ground in that area.  The door was fully intact.  Your theory is shit based on the fact that at least 12 of the Davidians survived the fire.  Your theory is shit two based on the fact that whenever there is a major fire there are almost ALWAYS casualties.  That's the nature of a fast moving fire in a big space. 

Basically, YOU are shit.

No surprise there baby murderer.


----------



## MikeK

JoeB131 said:


> [...]
> 
> Wait a minute. Wasn't that door attached to a building that burned to the ground?  Also, how does a door tell you who shot first? I mean, were the bullet holes time stamped?
> [...]


According to ATF's own description of events; when they arrived at the front door, one half of which was opened, the raiders were gathered outside while Koresh confronted them from inside with a number of armed Davidians standing behind him.  The agent in charge demanded entry to search.

According to one of the surviving Davidians, Koresh demanded to see a warrant.  When the agent said, _"Let us in and we'll show you the warrant,"_ Koresh slammed the open half of the door closed and was struck in the side by a bullet that came through the 2" wood door.

If the Davidians had fired first while the door was open it would have been impossible to miss the clustered agents.  If the Davidians had fired though the closed door there would be more than the one hole, which came from outside.   

JoeB, I know your mind is made up and you are not interested being confused by facts or logic, so I'm not trying to convince you of anything.  My interest here is to present certain facts and logical conclusions to those who wish to know what really happened at Waco.  Unlike you, I was not satisfied with the feds' accounts, so I've read several well-documented books on the subject and I've spent a lot of time researching via Google and some other sources.

Just so you know.


----------



## JoeB131

westwall said:


> No, the building did not burn to the ground in that area. The door was fully intact. Your theory is shit based on the fact that at least 12 of the Davidians survived the fire. Your theory is shit two based on the fact that whenever there is a major fire there are almost ALWAYS casualties. That's the nature of a fast moving fire in a big space.
> 
> Basically, YOU are shit.
> 
> No surprise there baby murderer.



Well, no, it just says 12 cultists didn't have the guts to go through with the suicide. 

Hey, how many members of hte People's Temple didn't drink the Koolaid? Clearly that proves the government poisoned them all!  

see how well the crazy works, bud?


----------



## JoeB131

MikeK said:


> JoeB, I know your mind is made up and you are not interested being confused by facts or logic, so I'm not trying to convince you of anything. My interest here is to present certain facts and logical conclusions to those who wish to know what really happened at Waco. Unlike you, I was not satisfied with the feds' accounts, so I've read several well-documented books on the subject and I've spent a lot of time researching via Google and some other sources.
> 
> Just so you know.



Yes, but you see, here's the thing. The people who wrote those books didn't have the physical evidence. Multiple agencies (not just the FBI and ATF) investigated Waco and all of them concluded it was a mass suicide.


----------



## westwall

JoeB131 said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, the building did not burn to the ground in that area. The door was fully intact. Your theory is shit based on the fact that at least 12 of the Davidians survived the fire. Your theory is shit two based on the fact that whenever there is a major fire there are almost ALWAYS casualties. That's the nature of a fast moving fire in a big space.
> 
> Basically, YOU are shit.
> 
> No surprise there baby murderer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, no, it just says 12 cultists didn't have the guts to go through with the suicide.
> 
> Hey, how many members of hte People's Temple didn't drink the Koolaid? Clearly that proves the government poisoned them all!
> 
> see how well the crazy works, bud?
Click to expand...








Yes, every post you make merely shows what crazy and stupid can come up with they are hosted by the same tiny little mind, such as yours.  The evidence is overwhelming that the davidians did not commit suicide.  But leave it to a crazy baby burning prick like you to ignore that.   Makes it easier for you to burn the next bunch.


----------



## JoeB131

westwall said:


> Yes, every post you make merely shows what crazy and stupid can come up with they are hosted by the same tiny little mind, such as yours. The evidence is overwhelming that the davidians did not commit suicide. But leave it to a crazy baby burning prick like you to ignore that. Makes it easier for you to burn the next bunch.



Right... so you had three investigations that stated that the Davidians committed mass suicide.

Not to mention- the 2000 trial that cleared the government of any wrongdoing. 

Government Cleared in Deaths at Waco

The judge, Walter Smith Jr. of Federal District Court in Waco, issued an order that found that federal agents had acted legally and could not be held liable for the deaths. His ruling ended a legal battle that lasted nearly seven years and came after an advisory jury in the case and a special counsel, former Senator John C. Danforth, both issued similar findings in July.

The Associated Press reported that Judge Smith wrote in his order that no Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms agents ''fired any shot nor used any force against residents of the compound and the Davidians that was unprovoked.''

''Gunfire was directed at A.T.F. agents by both male and female adult Davidians,'' the judge wrote. ''No A.T.F. agent fired any shot nor used any force against residents of the compound and the Davidians that was indiscriminate.''


----------



## westwall

JoeB131 said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, every post you make merely shows what crazy and stupid can come up with they are hosted by the same tiny little mind, such as yours. The evidence is overwhelming that the davidians did not commit suicide. But leave it to a crazy baby burning prick like you to ignore that. Makes it easier for you to burn the next bunch.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Right... so you had three investigations that stated that the Davidians committed mass suicide.
> 
> Not to mention- the 2000 trial that cleared the government of any wrongdoing.
> 
> Government Cleared in Deaths at Waco
> 
> The judge, Walter Smith Jr. of Federal District Court in Waco, issued an order that found that federal agents had acted legally and could not be held liable for the deaths. His ruling ended a legal battle that lasted nearly seven years and came after an advisory jury in the case and a special counsel, former Senator John C. Danforth, both issued similar findings in July.
> 
> The Associated Press reported that Judge Smith wrote in his order that no Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms agents ''fired any shot nor used any force against residents of the compound and the Davidians that was unprovoked.''
> 
> ''Gunfire was directed at A.T.F. agents by both male and female adult Davidians,'' the judge wrote. ''No A.T.F. agent fired any shot nor used any force against residents of the compound and the Davidians that was indiscriminate.''
Click to expand...






Oh shit.  Color me shocked that the government clears itself in an investigation of ITSELF. 

You're a fucking moron of the first order.


----------



## JoeB131

westwall said:


> Oh shit. Color me shocked that the government clears itself in an investigation of ITSELF.
> 
> You're a fucking moron of the first order.



So, um, why didn't George W. Bush reopen the Waco investigation to make sure justice was done if this was such an obvious injustice?


----------



## LA RAM FAN

thats two farts on this page so far from the troll.

thats the only kind of replies that he should be given on this thread for now on,everything else is a waste of time since he is just trying to get reactions out of us.


----------



## LA RAM FAN

MikeK said:


> LA RAM FAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> whether Koresh started the fire? seriously dude? Although you have looked into this obviously and done a lot of research no doubt doesnt sound like you have seen that video I have mentioned many times "just to watch it go ignored by him" where it shows an army tank with a flame thrower mounted on top STARTING the fire shooting flames onto the compound? so there is obviously no question clinton and the government lied and that our government started the fire.
> 
> 
> 
> My point is even if Koresh _did_ start the fire, the fact is the feds had stated many times they believed Koresh was a dangerous psychopath -- plus the feds knew there were dozens of innocent kids in that building, yet they took steps they _had_ to know would provoke him.
> 
> So either way the feds are responsible for the death of those kids.  They behaved like cold-blooded Nazis in the Warsaw Ghetto, showing *absolutely no concern* for the safety of innocent children.
> 
> I'm not interested in arguing who, what and how that fire actually started.  My point is all the feds had to do to prevent it was to back off and wait.  But they chose to assert their authority with no regard for the likely consequences.
Click to expand...

yeah I see what you mean good point.


----------



## JoeB131

LA RAM FAN said:


> thats the only kind of replies that he should be given on this thread for now on,everything else is a waste of time since he is just trying to get reactions out of us.



yeah, it's fun to watch you guys defend the kiddy-diddling cultists of Waco.


----------



## LA RAM FAN

JoeB131 said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh shit. Color me shocked that the government clears itself in an investigation of ITSELF.
> 
> You're a fucking moron of the first order.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, um, why didn't George W. Bush reopen the Waco investigation to make sure justice was done if this was such an obvious injustice?
Click to expand...


I know I said i wasnt going to feed the asshole anymore but i cant help myself in the fact he has outdone himself this time worse than all the previous posts COMBINED-hee hee,

 the fact that the moron ignores facts that there is no difference in the two parties,that both parties are corrupt because its a ONE PARTY SYSTEM designed to look like two,only the brainwashed sheep still asleep havent awakened to that.

even many blacks who were gung ho over Obama thinking he was different than all the other presidents we have had who have all been corrupt since JFK our last REAL president who served the people instead of the bankers and paid the price for it as a result  gunned down by the CIA for not being their puppet doing what they told him to do which every president since then has been which is why THEY  have all stayed alive.

those ignorant blacks who somehow thought Obama was different and the next JFK even THEY found out that he was a criminal and liar no different than Bush.He lied about everything he said he was going to DO  saying he was going to reverse Bushs policys but not only did he continue them,he EXPANDED upon them.

fucking moron of the first order indeed.

oh and not to mention as well the Clintons and Bushs have been long time pals dating back to at least  his days in office as governor or arkansas when Bush sr was vice president under Reagan. 

There have been countless photos posted over the years of the Bushs and Clintons going golfing and canoeing together.

One former bodyguard of Clintons who was his bodyguard dating back to his days in office as governor he even wrote a book about it and the book shows PHOTOS of the Bushs flown in from a helicopter having a party with the Clintons having a jolly old good time together. 

anybody interested in that book,pm me and I'll give you the title of it.


does this troll ever get tired of his constant ass beatings around here all the time?


----------



## LA RAM FAN

numan said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LA RAM FAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> I dont bother with a retarded prick who refuses to look at the facts that 9/11 was an inside job and there is not a shread of evidence that 19 muslims were behind it all.countless threads have been posted in the conspiracy section and have spelled it out dummies style for people like you proving beyond a doubt it was a home grown plot carried out by the CIA.
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, if you are really the kind of crazy who thinks that 9/11 was an inside job, I don't think there's much hope for you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If you are the kind of crazy who *doesn't* think 9/11 was an inside job, and that free fall speeds don't contradict the Law of Conservation of Momentum, then there is not much hope for you.
> .
Click to expand...

If you are the kind of crazy who *doesn't* think 9/11 was an inside job, and that free fall speeds don't contradict the Law of Conservation of Momentum, then there is not much hope for you.
.[/QUOTE]


You nailed it,could not have said it better myself.Thats WHY I dont get WHY people are STILL bothering with this shill.


----------



## LA RAM FAN

MikeK said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> [...]
> 
> Because drug addled cultists are such reliable witnesses.
> 
> [...]
> 
> 
> 
> Where did the notion that the Davidians were "drug-addled cultists" come from?  If you'd like to speak intelligently on this subject you should spend some time learning something about it.  The Davidians were not drug users.  Aside from their unusual religious conviction they were relatively normal individuals.  Their ranks included two lawyers, two school-teachers and for the most part ordinary working class people, most of whom were engaged in one way or another in a mail-order gun business. Seven of them held valid FFL (Federal Firearms Licenses) and were accomplished gunsmiths.
> 
> One thing you should know is the BATF had planted an undercover agent in the Davidian residence for several weeks before pulling that unnecessary and   largely unlawful raid.  If there was any drug activity in that residence don't you think the DEA would have been involved?
Click to expand...


you know he is grasping at straws consulting with his handlers on what to post next the fact you took him to school so well there.lol


----------



## LA RAM FAN

JoeB131 said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh shit. Color me shocked that the government clears itself in an investigation of ITSELF.
> 
> You're a fucking moron of the first order.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, um, why didn't George W. Bush reopen the Waco investigation to make sure justice was done if this was such an obvious injustice?
Click to expand...


oh in case pos# 87 was too complicated for you since you obviously  have reading comprehension problems,dont you EVER get tired of doing this- everyday at this site?





Barbara Bush has even publicly said Bill is like a second son to her.

It doesnt take a genius to figure out WHY the independent never gets elected.
cant have someone serving the people instead of the bankers for president.


----------



## MikeK

JoeB131 said:


> Yes, but you see, here's the thing. The people who wrote those books didn't have the physical evidence. Multiple agencies (not just the FBI and ATF) investigated Waco and all of them concluded it was a mass suicide.


I see.  

You are saying law-enforcement entities never manipulate and fabricate evidence and lie to justify their illegal and improper actions?  

Okay.


----------



## MikeK

JoeB131 said:


> So, um, why didn't George W. Bush reopen the Waco investigation to make sure justice was done if this was such an obvious injustice?


I'm surprised you would ask that question. 

For a President to tamper with the federal law-enforcement bureaucracy there must necessarily be some inescapable pressure to do so.  You might as well ask why Clinton didn't order the FBI to step down at Waco.  (Ever wonder why Woodward and Bernstein had such a hard time pulling the covers off Nixon re: _Watergate?_)

The reason for this consistent complicity would be summarized by my profane Dutch granny who would tell you, _"They all shit in the same pot and wipe each others' asses."_


----------



## westwall

JoeB131 said:


> LA RAM FAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> thats the only kind of replies that he should be given on this thread for now on,everything else is a waste of time since he is just trying to get reactions out of us.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yeah, it's fun to watch you guys defend the kiddy-diddling cultists of Waco.
Click to expand...







Nobody has ONCE defended them.  What we have decried is the senseless slaughter of 20 kids who were 15 and under, that YOU not only support, but celebrate.  You are a fucked up individual.


----------



## westwall

MikeK said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, um, why didn't George W. Bush reopen the Waco investigation to make sure justice was done if this was such an obvious injustice?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm surprised you would ask that question.
> 
> For a President to tamper with the federal law-enforcement bureaucracy there must necessarily be some inescapable pressure to do so.  You might as well ask why Clinton didn't order the FBI to step down at Waco.  (Ever wonder why Woodward and Bernstein had such a hard time pulling the covers off Nixon re: _Watergate?_)
> 
> The reason for this consistent complicity would be summarized by my profane Dutch granny who would tell you, _"They all shit in the same pot and wipe each others' asses."_
Click to expand...





And joe b licks their asses clean.


----------



## MikeK

JoeB131 said:


> [...]
> 
> again, they walked up to the door.  The Davidians knew they were ATF Agents.  They got into a firefight, anyway.


There is a category of Americans who strongly support the stand the Davidians took against the oppressive actions of the federal law-enforcement bureaucracy.  The first thing anyone who takes the time to research the facts in this horrific example of government oppression will learn is there was absolutely *no reason* for BATF to conduct that raid.  None.  The first question that should be asked is what did the Branch Davidians do to call for such a massive paramilitary operation?  The answer is, *nothing*!

The only valid reason put forth by BATF to obtain a search warrant had to do with the charge that Koresh and the Davidian partners in his firearms business, all of whom were properly licensed, was in possession of and was selling fully automatic firearms.  But no automatic firearms were recovered from the ruins at Waco and it was never shown that any such weapon existed or any such sale ever took place. The fact is Koresh was selling *replacement receivers* capable of transforming certain semi-automatic rifles into full-auto -- the sale of which, at that time, was *perfectly legal.* 

That specification was the _only_ partially valid item put forth in the affidavit submitted by ATF to obtain their warrant -- which was never presented to the Davidians prior to the attempted break-in.  In fact it was never determined during the so-called Waco "hearings" which of the agents who arrived at the Davidians' front door, if any, was in possession of the warrant. 

Every other specification on that warrant was either patently false or invalid -- such as the charge that Koresh was having sex with children, a complaint which had been thoroughly investigated by the local Sheriff and the _Texas Department of Social Services_ and found to be without merit.  Further, even if there was some valid basis for that complaint the BATF has as much jurisdiction to act upon such charges as does the Mexican Air Force. 

Another bogus charge had to do with an illegal _drug manufacturing_ operation which had nothing to to with Koresh or any member of the existing Branch Davidian group.  It was a manifest example of _mistaken identity_ which had been cleared by the local Sheriff long before ATF included it in their seriously flawed warrant affidavit. 

The bottom line is any legitimate cause the BATF had to investigate Koresh could have been easily implemented by arresting him any Monday to Friday morning when he was known to walk into town and back home.  All that was needed was two or three agents and a valid warrant.  Instead the entire Davidian group and their children were *attacked* by dozens of masked paramilitary raiders in a massive operation which turned out to be one of the most egregious examples of unnecessarily brutal and murderous force perpetrated by the federal government against peaceful American citizens.

Again, the question is what did the Davidians do to provoke what the federal agents did to them?  The answer is they defended their rights as peaceful citizens by refusing to submit to improperly imposed federal aggression.


----------



## MikeK

JoeB131 said:


> Okay, yeah, the ATF could have done it smarter.  However, that still didn't give the Cultists the right to shoot at them. Especially since - they knew they were law enforcement.


According to the section of Texas Penal Law posted in a previous message the Davidians did have a right to shoot at those masked raiders who were heavily armed and attempting to break into their home.

As for the raiders' occupation, if a uniformed police officer is attempting to rape your sister and you bash his skull in are you subject to criticism because you knew he was a cop?  Everyone does not share your apparent reverence for people with badges.  In the final analysis these ATF goons were as wrong as two left feet.



> You know, it's hilarious that you guys will defend every trigger happy cop who blows away a 12 year old playing with a toy, but want to villify these ATF and FBI agents who were handling a bunch of freaks with kid gloves.


Speaking for myself, I do not defend cops who behave outside the boundaries of appropriate conduct.

Regarding your "bunch of freaks" description, how much do you know about the Davidians to make such an offhand assessment of them?  The fact that they did not share your personal values did not justify what happened to them.  But the relevant question is whom did they harm?  Aside from complaints made against Koresh by a former Davidian, actually the jealous husband of a Davidian woman who became one of Koresh's wives, what other complaints were made against them?

Do you know the local Sheriff and all their neighbors spoke very approvingly of the Davidians, calling them friendly, helpful and peaceful people?

The Davidians harmed no one -- and look what was done to them.  Put your personal feelings aside and try to view the Waco Massacre from a more objective perspective -- focusing your attention on the kids who died there.


----------



## JoeB131

LA RAM FAN said:


> I know I said i wasnt going to feed the asshole anymore but i cant help myself in the fact he has outdone himself this time worse than all the previous posts COMBINED-hee hee,
> 
> the fact that the moron ignores facts that there is no difference in the two parties,that both parties are corrupt because its a ONE PARTY SYSTEM designed to look like two,only the brainwashed sheep still asleep havent awakened to that.



Then what are you even bothering to do here?  It's like posting on a sports message board when you don't actually care about any of the teams. 

Sadly, the internet gives the crazy a forum.


----------



## JoeB131

MikeK said:


> There is a category of Americans who strongly support the stand the Davidians took against the oppressive actions of the federal law-enforcement bureaucracy. The first thing anyone who takes the time to research the facts in this horrific example of government oppression will learn is there was absolutely *no reason* for BATF to conduct that raid. None. The first question that should be asked is what did the Branch Davidians do to call for such a massive paramilitary operation? The answer is, *nothing*!



They were illegally selling guns and kits to convert AR-15's into fully automatic M-16's. I'm sorry you anarchists don't get this, but most people don't want to share their streets with crazy, kiddy molesting cultists armed with machine guns.


----------



## JoeB131

MikeK said:


> According to the section of Texas Penal Law posted in a previous message the Davidians did have a right to shoot at those masked raiders who were heavily armed and attempting to break into their home.



Guy, that's horseshit.  They knew they were ATF Agents. They even asked the undercover ATF Agent who had badly infiltrated them to go outside and talk them out of the raid.  

Again, I find it amusing that the same wingnuts who will defend cops shooting unarmed black teens are making excuses for these nuts. 

Criming While White, baby!!!


----------



## MikeK

JoeB131 said:


> They were illegally selling guns and kits to convert AR-15's into fully automatic M-16's. I'm sorry you anarchists don't get this, but most people don't want to share their streets with crazy, kiddy molesting cultists armed with machine guns.


At the time they were selling those conversion kits they were perfectly legal and the _Shotgun News_ was full of ads for them.  The stipulation was one must have a Federal license to own fully automatic weapons prior to implementing the kit.  But so many people bought the kits and converted their AR-15s that the BATF had a law passed banning them in the late '70s.

Another kit the Davidians developed and sold was the _Hellfire,_ which was a cute little rapid-return, spring-actuated device that screw-mounts onto the trigger guard and behind the trigger of any semi-auto .22.  With proper adjustment and a little practice to acquire the proper _feel_ on the trigger the device enabled rapidly repetitive _kick-back_ action producing a full-auto effect.  The problem was it worked so well with the Ruger 10-22 that with some practice one could run off nearly the entire 50-round magazine -- and burn the barrel out.  (I found that out the hard way.)

The _Hellfire_ was also perfectly legal.  I don't know if anything like it is still legally available today.

Koresh was an FFL licensed firearms dealer, as was a number of other Davidians and they had an active mail-order business.  Everything they sold was strictly legal.  The reason BATF wanted to search their premises was the undercover's report that they were converting various semi-auto rifles into full auto.  While I suspect that might have been true for development purposes the fact remains that no fully automatic rifles were recovered from the ruins -- although the FBI and the Texas Rangers conducted an exhaustive search.


----------



## MikeK

JoeB131 said:


> Guy, that's horseshit.  They knew they were ATF Agents. They even asked the undercover ATF Agent who had badly infiltrated them to go outside and talk them out of the raid.


I didn't say they didn't know the raiders were ATF.  What I said is according to Texas Penal Law they had a right to defend themselves against the ATF agents' unlawful attempt to break in and arrest them.



> Again, I find it amusing that the same wingnuts who will defend cops shooting unarmed black teens are making excuses for these nuts.


Specifically who are the "wingnuts" you are referring to?  Why are you reluctant to name them?

As far as defending cops is concerned, I will defend any cop who justifiably uses lethal force, such as Ptl, Darrel Wilson (Ferguson, MO) who shot Mike Brown to death.  Brown was a bullying scumbag who asked for what he got.  Wilson had good cause and he did the world a favor by killing Brown, because Brown would have harmed a lot of weaker individuals if he'd been allowed to live a long life.

But I have no respect for trigger-happy cops who do things that give troublemakers something to raise hell about.  Unnecessarily shooting unarmed Black teens provokes police assassinations in which the cops who are murdered probably are the kind who would not wrongfully use deadly force.


----------



## MikeK

JoeB131 said:


> Yes, but you see, here's the thing. The people who wrote those books didn't have the physical evidence. Multiple agencies (not just the FBI and ATF) investigated Waco and all of them concluded it was a mass suicide.


Without having read any of the books about the Waco Massacre you feel qualified to negatively criticize them.


----------



## JoeB131

MikeK said:


> Koresh was an FFL licensed firearms dealer, as was a number of other Davidians and they had an active mail-order business. Everything they sold was strictly legal. The reason BATF wanted to search their premises was the undercover's report that they were converting various semi-auto rifles into full auto. While I suspect that might have been true for development purposes the fact remains that no fully automatic rifles were recovered from the ruins -- although the FBI and the Texas Rangers conducted an exhaustive search.



Don't you think that fire destroyed most of them? I've seen footage of the firefight, it looks like they were using fully auto weapons to me. 

If they weren't breaking laws, they probably had nothing to fear from a search. Instead they shot four ATF agents, and Koresh had a choice between getting his cultists to commit mass suicide and going to the big house and being someone's prison bitch. (which is what they do to his sort in the big house). 

Sadly, he chose the former. And became a hero to gun-toting assholes.


----------



## JoeB131

MikeK said:


> I didn't say they didn't know the raiders were ATF. What I said is according to Texas Penal Law they had a right to defend themselves against the ATF agents' unlawful attempt to break in and arrest them.



No, the ATF had a warrant.



MikeK said:


> As far as defending cops is concerned, I will defend any cop who justifiably uses lethal force, such as Ptl, Darrel Wilson (Ferguson, MO) who shot Mike Brown to death. Brown was a bullying scumbag who asked for what he got.



Yup. He stole some cigars.

Totally worth killing him over.

Meanwhile, Koresh had molested children, sold illegal guns, shot four ATF agents.. but he was "Criming While White".


----------



## JoeB131

MikeK said:


> Without having read any of the books about the Waco Massacre you feel qualified to negatively criticize them.



I have read those books.  They're bullshit.


----------



## LA RAM FAN

MikeK said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but you see, here's the thing. The people who wrote those books didn't have the physical evidence. Multiple agencies (not just the FBI and ATF) investigated Waco and all of them concluded it was a mass suicide.
> 
> 
> 
> I see.
> 
> You are saying law-enforcement entities never manipulate and fabricate evidence and lie to justify their illegal and improper actions?
> 
> Okay.
Click to expand...


this trolls boss sure pays him a lot of money for the constant ass beatings he gets here everyday.notice how he keeps evading the video evidence? lol


----------



## LA RAM FAN

westwall said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LA RAM FAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> thats the only kind of replies that he should be given on this thread for now on,everything else is a waste of time since he is just trying to get reactions out of us.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yeah, it's fun to watch you guys defend the kiddy-diddling cultists of Waco.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody has ONCE defended them.  What we have decried is the senseless slaughter of 20 kids who were 15 and under, that YOU not only support, but celebrate.  You are a fucked up individual.
Click to expand...


He is obviously one of countless number of government paid shills that have penetrated this forum.He has farted five times on the last page here.Must have sucked when I took him to school with my video proof that the clintons and bushs are long time pals and there is no difference between the two parties that they are both corrupt.


----------



## LA RAM FAN

MikeK said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but you see, here's the thing. The people who wrote those books didn't have the physical evidence. Multiple agencies (not just the FBI and ATF) investigated Waco and all of them concluded it was a mass suicide.
> 
> 
> 
> I see.
> 
> You are saying law-enforcement entities never manipulate and fabricate evidence and lie to justify their illegal and improper actions?
> 
> Okay.
Click to expand...


thats the logic of the troll.lol


----------



## LA RAM FAN

westwall said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, every post you make merely shows what crazy and stupid can come up with they are hosted by the same tiny little mind, such as yours. The evidence is overwhelming that the davidians did not commit suicide. But leave it to a crazy baby burning prick like you to ignore that. Makes it easier for you to burn the next bunch.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Right... so you had three investigations that stated that the Davidians committed mass suicide.
> 
> Not to mention- the 2000 trial that cleared the government of any wrongdoing.
> 
> Government Cleared in Deaths at Waco
> 
> The judge, Walter Smith Jr. of Federal District Court in Waco, issued an order that found that federal agents had acted legally and could not be held liable for the deaths. His ruling ended a legal battle that lasted nearly seven years and came after an advisory jury in the case and a special counsel, former Senator John C. Danforth, both issued similar findings in July.
> 
> The Associated Press reported that Judge Smith wrote in his order that no Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms agents ''fired any shot nor used any force against residents of the compound and the Davidians that was unprovoked.''
> 
> ''Gunfire was directed at A.T.F. agents by both male and female adult Davidians,'' the judge wrote. ''No A.T.F. agent fired any shot nor used any force against residents of the compound and the Davidians that was indiscriminate.''
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh shit.  Color me shocked that the government clears itself in an investigation of ITSELF.
> 
> You're a fucking moron of the first order.
Click to expand...


Indeed.talk about the fox guarding the henhouse.

this nutcase obviously thinks oswald shot JFK as well and that the warren commission was a factual non biased objective investigation with honerable men in charge.



this shill reminds me of another shill that trolls here and  defends the warren commission  on several message boards as well. people will show him videos of evidence that proves oswald innocent and there were multiple gunmen  and he wont address any of the facts in the videos,he'll just reply saying-thats been debunked,read the warren commission. him and joe troll boy should get a marriage licence,they make a perfect couple.same babble over and over again just like that JFK guy.


----------



## LA RAM FAN

MikeK said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but you see, here's the thing. The people who wrote those books didn't have the physical evidence. Multiple agencies (not just the FBI and ATF) investigated Waco and all of them concluded it was a mass suicide.
> 
> 
> 
> Without having read any of the books about the Waco Massacre you feel qualified to negatively criticize them.
Click to expand...

thats how these trolls operate,criticise books they have never read since it exposes the governments lies.


----------



## MikeK

JoeB131 said:


> Yup. He stole some cigars.
> 
> [...]


It's not what he did but the way he did it that revealed his character and potential.  But that's something you might not be genetically equipped to comprehend.


----------



## MikeK

JoeB131 said:


> Don't you think that fire destroyed most of them? I've seen footage of the firefight, it looks like they were using fully auto weapons to me.


No, I don't think the fire reached the level which was capable of destroying hardened steel beyond being clearly identifiable.  If it did there would not have been any identifiable corpses.  And if you had read, _Ashes of Waco,_ as you claim to, you would have read the testimony of the Texas Rangers armorer who examined every weapon recovered from those ruins and flatly declared at the Waco "hearings" and elsewhere that none were fully automatic. 

Having watched footage of the firefight your impression that the Davidians were using full-auto weapons speaks either for your relative ignorance or your tendency to believe anything you wish to believe (_delusional accommodation_), which you do seem inclined to.  I watched the same footage and saw nothing to suggest the Davidians were using full-auto weapons, nor have I ever heard or read anyone else make the same assertion -- and lots of very firearms savvy individuals have posted on this topic over the years. 



> If they weren't breaking laws, they probably had nothing to fear from a search.


So what?  I have nothing to fear from a search -- except the oppressive humiliation it would impart.  Why should I submit to being humiliated by a bunch of goons with badges when I know I've done nothing to warrant their action?  One of the major benefits of living in a _free_ country is the liberty to defend oneself from such oppression.  Sadly, emergence of the authoritarian state in recent years, largely as a consequence of the drug war, has eroded that spirit of freedom from unjustified police aggression.  If you doubt that, go here:  http://www.cato.org/raidmap/

My position on this is if they come banging on my door and attempting to break into my home they'd better have an honest warrant or I will defend myself.  I feel the same way about someone who attempts to rob or otherwise harm me on the street.  I have the choice of submitting for the sake of safety or resisting for the sake of personal integrity.



> Instead they shot four ATF agents, and Koresh had a choice between getting his cultists to commit mass suicide and going to the big house and being someone's prison bitch. (which is what they do to his sort in the big house).


How do you know what is done in the "big house." 



> Sadly, he chose the former. And became a hero to gun-toting assholes.


If you'd actually read the books you say you've read you would know Koresh's position was simply that he'd done nothing to justify that raid -- and he was absolutely right.  His greatest mistake was believing Government would call that raid off and he would have a chance to state his case.  He literally begged for an opportunity to talk with the Press which was consistently denied.  If he'd been given access to the media there is no question that public protest would have afforded him his day in court. 

But Government had other ideas -- and you are a prime example of their intention and efforts.


----------



## HenryBHough

Update:

Reno arrived today at her final destination and was greeted by a throng of children.

Each one not just holding a candle but thrusting them at her clothing.

Truly a well deserved welcome.


----------



## westwall

JoeB131 said:


> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> Koresh was an FFL licensed firearms dealer, as was a number of other Davidians and they had an active mail-order business. Everything they sold was strictly legal. The reason BATF wanted to search their premises was the undercover's report that they were converting various semi-auto rifles into full auto. While I suspect that might have been true for development purposes the fact remains that no fully automatic rifles were recovered from the ruins -- although the FBI and the Texas Rangers conducted an exhaustive search.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't you think that fire destroyed most of them? I've seen footage of the firefight, it looks like they were using fully auto weapons to me.
> 
> If they weren't breaking laws, they probably had nothing to fear from a search. Instead they shot four ATF agents, and Koresh had a choice between getting his cultists to commit mass suicide and going to the big house and being someone's prison bitch. (which is what they do to his sort in the big house).
> 
> Sadly, he chose the former. And became a hero to gun-toting assholes.
Click to expand...







They had LEGAL full auto weapons.  There is a MOUNTAIN of facts that you are seemingly oblivious to.  No surprise there.  You will fix on any excuse, no matter how flimsy, to justify (in your warped, rucked up mind) the murder of people you don't like.  YOU are the reason the Founders saw fit to keep the PEOPLE armed.  Power mad assholes, like you, love killing defenseless people.  That's why you are so invested in disarming the people of this country.  Makes it easier for you to commit your atrocities.


----------



## MikeK

JoeB131 said:


> No, the ATF had a warrant.


The warrant was not presented.  Koresh demanded to see the warrant when the agents reached the front door.  The lead agent said, _Let us inside and we'll show you the warrant!"_  Koresh then slammed the door -- and a bullet came through the door and struck him in the side.

Although the question arose several times during the Waco "Hearings" it was never determined which of the agents actually had the warrant.  The obvious reason for that is the warrant was almost totally defective.  It contained lies, gross exaggerations and egregious errors.  I am surprised the judge who issued that warrant was not disbarred.

One specification in the warrant was suspicion of child molestation, a complaint which had been investigated and cleared by the local sheriff and state social services -- and which the BATF has absolutely no jurisdiction to investigate.

Another specification referred to suspicion of "drug manufacturing, a charge which was made against a completely different Davidian chapter and had been investigated and prosecuted by local authority and the DEA.  It was a dead issue that had nothing to do with Koresh.

The only reasonable specification in the warrant was suspicion of "manufacturing and sale of fully automatic weapons," for which there wasn't a shred of evidence -- which would be required to justify a search warrant.  An ATF agent's _opinion_ and _suspicion_ is not Probable Cause.  It is opinion and suspicion.  But persons with the mentality you clearly manifest are willing to accept this kind of abuse of your Constitutional protections, which is why this Nation is devolving into a totalitarian state, one little step at a time.

Waco was a very big step in that direction.


----------



## westwall

MikeK said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, the ATF had a warrant.
> 
> 
> 
> The warrant was not presented.  Koresh demanded to see the warrant when the agents reached the front door.  The lead agent said, _Let us inside and we'll show you the warrant!"_  Koresh then slammed the door -- and a bullet came through the door and struck him in the side.
> 
> Although the question arose several times during the Waco "Hearings" it was never determined which of the agents actually had the warrant.  The obvious reason for that is the warrant was almost totally defective.  It contained lies, gross exaggerations and egregious errors.  I am surprised the judge who issued that warrant was not disbarred.
> 
> One specification in the warrant was suspicion of child molestation, a complaint which had been investigated and cleared by the local sheriff and state social services -- and which the BATF has absolutely no jurisdiction to investigate.
> 
> Another specification referred to suspicion of "drug manufacturing, a charge which was made against a completely different Davidian chapter and had been investigated and prosecuted by local authority and the DEA.  It was a dead issue that had nothing to do with Koresh.
> 
> The only reasonable specification in the warrant was suspicion of "manufacturing and sale of fully automatic weapons," for which there wasn't a shred of evidence -- which would be required to justify a search warrant.  An ATF agent's _opinion_ and _suspicion_ is not Probable Cause.  It is opinion and suspicion.  But persons with the mentality you clearly manifest are willing to accept this kind of abuse of your Constitutional protections, which is why this Nation is devolving into a totalitarian state, one little step at a time.
> 
> Waco was a very big step in that direction.
Click to expand...







Not only was it not presented, it wasn't even on scene.  The ATF broke every rule in the raid playbook.


----------



## JoeB131

MikeK said:


> It's not what he did but the way he did it that revealed his character and potential. But that's something you might not be genetically equipped to comprehend.



So let's me get this straight.  A kid steals some cigars, you need to shoot him, but a bunch ofkiddy-diddling, drug dealing, gun-happy cultists shoot ATF agents and we need to treat them with kid gloves?   

Got it.  

Criming while White.


----------



## HenryBHough

All those murdered by Clinton's puppet Reno should be counted among Clinton Crime Family Victims.


----------



## JoeB131

westwall said:


> Not only was it not presented, it wasn't even on scene. The ATF broke every rule in the raid playbook.



And the place to fight that out was in the courts, not a shootout with police officers who had clearly identified themselves.


----------



## westwall

JoeB131 said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not only was it not presented, it wasn't even on scene. The ATF broke every rule in the raid playbook.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the place to fight that out was in the courts, not a shootout with police officers who had clearly identified themselves.
Click to expand...







Doesn't work when the ATF shoots first, now does it.  We get it, you love overwhelming government power and woe to those who actually defend themselves from a illegal attack by that government.  Go burn another baby, asshole.


----------



## MikeK

JoeB131 said:


> So let's me get this straight.  A kid steals some cigars, you need to shoot him,


A "kid?"  A 6'2" 300 pound assaultive n!gger strongarms the manager of the store he attempted to walk out of without paying for merchandise, then he attempts to disarm a cop.  So, yes.  He needed to be shot, just like the mad dog he was.  And that scumbag would have hurt a lot of people if he was allowed to run free.

"Kid," my ass.



> but a bunch ofkiddy-diddling, drug dealing, gun-happy cultists shoot ATF agents and we need to treat them with kid gloves?


1) *Who* (specifically) lodged the "kiddy-diddling" charge against Koresh?  And what evidence was presented?  

2) No drug use, dealing or manufacturing was ever established.  That charge was a blundering error on BATF's part.

3) The "gun-happy cultists" were a group of peaceful, *federally licensed* firearms dealers who conducted a legitimate business and paid taxes.  So what exactly is your definition of a "cult?"


----------



## 12icer

Anyone who thinks there is ANY comparison with the two events is a complete moron, The assault on Waco was a complete rape of the constitution by the DOJ, Federal Marshals, and the FBI, The national guard tanks set the house on fire with tank mounted flamethrowers I used to set those up, and that is what was mounted on the tanks. The stinking piles of shit MURDERED everyone in the house, just like they did Randy Weavers wife and son, and If you post differently you are just pumping out pure ignorant lying shit. The trials of some of the damn agents and the trials of the people attacked have every time proved that the government took unconstitutional, and overreaching action. The cases like browns have proved the opposite was true. If you jump a cop, and try to take his gun you have committed a felony assault, and if he kills you it is JUSTIFIED as if you take his gun, he is dead and he knows it just like even idiots who say he wasn't justified KNOW he did what he HAD to do or he WOULD BE DEAD.


----------



## JoeB131

westwall said:


> Doesn't work when the ATF shoots first, now does it. We get it, you love overwhelming government power and woe to those who actually defend themselves from a illegal attack by that government. Go burn another baby, asshole.



Well, except several investigations found the Cultists shot first.  

But if Gun-running cultists are free to offer their ch ildren to their fake messiah, are any of us truly free?


----------



## JoeB131

MikeK said:


> A "kid?" A 6'2" 300 pound assaultive *n!gger*



Oh. Okay. so it's okay to shoot him if he's black, then. Got it.


----------



## JoeB131

MikeK said:


> 1) *Who* (specifically) lodged the "kiddy-diddling" charge against Koresh? And what evidence was presented?



again, you guys keep avoiding this. Michelle Jones, Koresh fathered children on her when she was 13 years old.  This isn't even in dispute. 



MikeK said:


> 3) The "gun-happy cultists" were a group of peaceful, *federally licensed* firearms dealers who conducted a legitimate business and paid taxes. So what exactly is your definition of a "cult?"



The ATF said otherwise, and they were concerned enough to launch an investigation. My definition of a cult is pretty simple- it's where you have people who slavishly follow a leader without questioning him, no matter what he does.


----------



## JoeB131

12icer said:


> Anyone who thinks there is ANY comparison with the two events is a complete moron, The assault on Waco was a complete rape of the constitution by the DOJ, Federal Marshals, and the FBI, The national guard tanks set the house on fire with tank mounted flamethrowers I used to set those up, and that is what was mounted on the tanks. The stinking piles of shit MURDERED everyone in the house, just like they did Randy Weavers wife and son, and If you post differently you are just pumping out pure ignorant lying shit. The trials of some of the damn agents and the trials of the people attacked have every time proved that the government took unconstitutional, and overreaching action. The cases like browns have proved the opposite was true. If you jump a cop, and try to take his gun you have committed a felony assault, and if he kills you it is JUSTIFIED as if you take his gun, he is dead and he knows it just like even idiots who say he wasn't justified KNOW he did what he HAD to do or he WOULD BE DEAD.



Brown was 100 feet away from Wilson when Wilson shot him six times.  

Meanwhile, the Kiddy-diddlers shot four ATF Agents, were pointing guns at federal officers and used kids as human shields. That was all manner of fucked up. And when they realized their fake messiah was going to the big house, they killed themselves and their kids.


----------



## LA RAM FAN

HenryBHough said:


> Update:
> 
> Reno arrived today at her final destination and was greeted by a throng of children.
> 
> Each one not just holding a candle but thrusting them at her clothing.
> 
> Truly a well deserved welcome.


you nailed it.lol


----------



## LA RAM FAN

HenryBHough said:


> All those murdered by Clinton's puppet Reno should be counted among Clinton Crime Family Victims.


----------



## LA RAM FAN

JoeB131 said:


> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> Without having read any of the books about the Waco Massacre you feel qualified to negatively criticize them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have read those books.  They're bullshit.
Click to expand...

sure you read them liar,you have ignored everything we have taken you to school on and defend the the clinton liars everyday so you are obviously a liar same as them shill.


----------



## LA RAM FAN

12icer said:


> Anyone who thinks there is ANY comparison with the two events is a complete moron, The assault on Waco was a complete rape of the constitution by the DOJ, Federal Marshals, and the FBI, The national guard tanks set the house on fire with tank mounted flamethrowers I used to set those up, and that is what was mounted on the tanks. The stinking piles of shit MURDERED everyone in the house, just like they did Randy Weavers wife and son, and If you post differently you are just pumping out pure ignorant lying shit. The trials of some of the damn agents and the trials of the people attacked have every time proved that the government took unconstitutional, and overreaching action. The cases like browns have proved the opposite was true. If you jump a cop, and try to take his gun you have committed a felony assault, and if he kills you it is JUSTIFIED as if you take his gun, he is dead and he knows it just like even idiots who say he wasn't justified KNOW he did what he HAD to do or he WOULD BE DEAD.




everyone on this thread gets what you are saying and knows its all true except that government paid shill joe troll boy.That is what I said over a 100 times on this thread just to watch the troll play dodgeball and ignore it that like you said,the national guard set the house on fire with flamethrowers mounted on the tanks.

anytime you present evidence and facts like that to this troll boy,he does this-runs off and starts rambling pretending he has won by saying john danforth ran 4 honest investigations.

this troll no doubt thinks oswald shot JFK as well and that the warren commission were honerable trustworthy gentlemen who ran a non biased investigation into it.


----------



## westwall

JoeB131 said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't work when the ATF shoots first, now does it. We get it, you love overwhelming government power and woe to those who actually defend themselves from a illegal attack by that government. Go burn another baby, asshole.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, except several investigations found the Cultists shot first.
> 
> But if Gun-running cultists are free to offer their ch ildren to their fake messiah, are any of us truly free?
Click to expand...






Big deal.  The government finds itself innocent all of the time.  Amazingly enough, now that cell phone, and security cams are all over the place, the government can't hide like it used to be able to.  Holy shit batman, look at all of those bad cops getting found out now all of a sudden.  Look at joe b's dumbfuck relative (sure it wasn't you?) who drove over those political signs and got his tires shredded by the security anchor.  My oh my oh my.  

Looks like the government lies through its teeth all of the time!  Who knew!  Clearly not dumbfuck joe b!


----------



## JoeB131

LA RAM FAN said:


> sure you read them liar,you have ignored everything we have taken you to school on and defend the the clinton liars everyday so you are obviously a liar same as them shill.



Every investigation and trial has found the kiddy-diddlers did themselves in.


----------



## JoeB131

westwall said:


> Big deal. The government finds itself innocent all of the time. Amazingly enough, now that cell phone, and security cams are all over the place, the government can't hide like it used to be able to. Holy shit batman, look at all of those bad cops getting found out now all of a sudden. Look at joe b's dumbfuck relative (sure it wasn't you?) who drove over those political signs and got his tires shredded by the security anchor. My oh my oh my.
> 
> Looks like the government lies through its teeth all of the time! Who knew! Clearly not dumbfuck joe b!



Guy, you still haven''t presented any evidence your cultists who believed the end of the world was coming didn't off themselves.


----------



## westwall

JoeB131 said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Big deal. The government finds itself innocent all of the time. Amazingly enough, now that cell phone, and security cams are all over the place, the government can't hide like it used to be able to. Holy shit batman, look at all of those bad cops getting found out now all of a sudden. Look at joe b's dumbfuck relative (sure it wasn't you?) who drove over those political signs and got his tires shredded by the security anchor. My oh my oh my.
> 
> Looks like the government lies through its teeth all of the time! Who knew! Clearly not dumbfuck joe b!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Guy, you still haven''t presented any evidence your cultists who believed the end of the world was coming didn't off themselves.
Click to expand...






Sure I have.   Twelve of them inconveniently survived the government attempt at killing them all.


----------



## westwall

JoeB131 said:


> LA RAM FAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> sure you read them liar,you have ignored everything we have taken you to school on and defend the the clinton liars everyday so you are obviously a liar same as them shill.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Every investigation and trial has found the kiddy-diddlers did themselves in.
Click to expand...





Sure thing sport.  I wonder what the verdict would have been had they had the cell cameras we enjoy these days.  Face it baby killer, you, and they, are only interested in abusing power.  To that I say "fuck you".


----------



## MikeK

JoeB131 said:


> The ATF said otherwise, and they were concerned enough to launch an investigation.


Ah.  I didn't realize ATF said otherwise.  That settles it then, because everyone knows law-enforcement officers never lie.  



> My definition of a cult is pretty simple- it's where you have people who slavishly follow a leader without questioning him, no matter what he does.


You mean like the cult of _authoritarian personalities_ who submissively accept the word of any government agent as gospel truth?


----------



## MikeK

JoeB131 said:


> again, you guys keep avoiding this. Michelle Jones, Koresh fathered children on her when she was 13 years old.  This isn't even in dispute.


It's not in dispute by you and a lot of others who reflexively believe anything and everything some government spokesman says.

My question is specifically where did you learn this?  I've heard it said Koresh made her pregnant when she was 12, and 13, and 14.  Which is it?  And who said it?  And what evidence supports the accusation?

Are you aware that complaints of this nature were lodged by a former Davidian whose wife took up with David Koresh?  

The bottom line is even if the worst of this and other accusations are true, does that justify the way the stand-off ended?  Or do you not believe the way it ended was avoidable via patient, intelligent judgment, common sense and concern for the lives of those children?


----------



## MikeK

JoeB131 said:


> Well, except several investigations found the Cultists shot first.


The first shot was fired through the front door.  It hit Koresh in the side and touched off the attempted break-in and firefight.  



> But if Gun-running cultists are free to offer their ch ildren to their fake messiah, are any of us truly free?


Of course not, which means it's okay to ignore their safety and provoke their probable death by fire.


----------



## MikeK

JoeB131 said:


> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> A "kid?" A 6'2" 300 pound assaultive *n!gger*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh. Okay. so it's okay to shoot him if he's black, then. Got it.
Click to expand...

No.  I didn't say that.  It's not okay to shoot him if he's Black.  Being Black doesn't make someone a dangerous criminal.

But it is okay to shoot a 6'2" 300 lb n!igger who already has attacked you, attempted to take your firearm, and whose behavior plainly suggests he either is psychopathic and/or is on PCP, and is approaching you in a menacing manner, and refuses to stop when commanded to.

The only thing the 100' distance means is Ptl. Wilson is a pretty good shot.


----------



## MikeK

JoeB131 said:


> LA RAM FAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> sure you read them liar,you have ignored everything we have taken you to school on and defend the the clinton liars everyday so you are obviously a liar same as them shill.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Every investigation and trial has found the kiddy-diddlers did themselves in.
Click to expand...

So you say.


----------



## MikeK

JoeB131 said:


> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> A "kid?" A 6'2" 300 pound assaultive *n!gger*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh. Okay. so it's okay to shoot him if he's black, then. Got it.
Click to expand...

Since you chose to impose a racial element onto the discussion, what does _"criming while white"_ (see Message #117) mean?

Have you been so approving of what happened to the Davidians because you believe they were an exclusively White gathering?  If so, you should know several of the Davidians were Black -- one of whom was an attorney.


----------



## MikeK

JoeB131 said:


> LA RAM FAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> sure you read them liar,you have ignored everything we have taken you to school on and defend the the clinton liars everyday so you are obviously a liar same as them shill.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Every investigation and trial has found the kiddy-diddlers did themselves in.
Click to expand...

Every _government_ investigation and _government_ orchestrated trial, that is.  And dismissing the Davidians as a bunch of pedophiles is a declaration of ignorance.

If you pay attention to the findings of independent researchers, those who do not have a committed cause to cover up the most egregious and stupidly brutal federal law-enforcement blunder in American history, one that even many FBI agents expressed criticism of and regrets about, you will form a very different impression.  I personally know one former FBI agent who called that operation "shameful" and emphasized the fact that it was the work of the Bureau's infamous _Hostage "Rescue" Team_, the same group that shot Randy Weaver's wife to death while she held her infant child during the *excessive* and *unnecessary* _Ruby Ridge_ raid.  He referred to that unit as the Bureau's _"hit squad."  _(Weaver was ultimately acquitted of the phony charges against him and he won a damage award in court.)


----------



## JoeB131

westwall said:


> Sure I have. Twelve of them inconveniently survived the government attempt at killing them all.



You mean their lizard brains ran away from fire, and then they had to explain how it was they let a creep diddle their children?  

Thankfully, most of them went to prison afterwards.


----------



## JoeB131

MikeK said:


> Since you chose to impose a racial element onto the discussion, what does _"criming while white"_ (see Message #117) mean?



I've explained that pretty clearly. If you are white and commit crimes, law enforcement treats you with kid gloves... YOu shoot 4 ATF Agents, and the FBI spends 51 days trying to talk you into giving yourself up. 

Criming While White. 

If you are a black kid who steals some cigars or plays with a toy gun, they shoot you on site.  



MikeK said:


> Have you been so approving of what happened to the Davidians because you believe they were an exclusively White gathering? If so, you should know several of the Davidians were Black -- one of whom was an attorney.



I'm good with them all burning because they killed themselves.  Less stupid people on the planet is always a good thing.  Now if we can only get other cultists to follow their fine example. 



MikeK said:


> Every _government_ investigation and _government_ orchestrated trial, that is. And dismissing the Davidians as a bunch of pedophiles is a declaration of ignorance.



David Koresh had sex with children. This isn't even in dispute.  Every cultist in that compound knew he was doing it, and didn't turn him in to the cops. 



MikeK said:


> If you pay attention to the findings of independent researchers, those who do not have a committed cause to cover up the most egregious and stupidly brutal federal law-enforcement blunder in American history, one that even many FBI agents expressed criticism of and regrets about, you will form a very different impression.



Which FBI agent was that?  Name names. 



MikeK said:


> I personally know one former FBI agent who called that operation "shameful" and emphasized the fact that it was the work of the Bureau's infamous _Hostage "Rescue" Team_, the same group that shot Randy Weaver's wife to death while she held her infant child during the *excessive* and *unnecessary* _Ruby Ridge_ raid. He referred to that unit as the Bureau's _"hit squad." _(Weaver was ultimately acquitted of the phony charges against him and he won a damage award in court.)


.
Weaver was a Nazi POS who shot a Federal Marshal. The mistake they made was not double tapping him and every other Nazi Zombie in that house.


----------



## Jarlaxle

westwall said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LA RAM FAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> sure you read them liar,you have ignored everything we have taken you to school on and defend the the clinton liars everyday so you are obviously a liar same as them shill.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Every investigation and trial has found the kiddy-diddlers did themselves in.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure thing sport.  I wonder what the verdict would have been had they had the cell cameras we enjoy these days.  Face it baby killer, you, and they, are only interested in abusing power.  To that I say "fuck you".
Click to expand...

You must realize...Joey dreams of being STALIN. He masturbates to thoughts of dead children.


----------



## MikeK

JoeB131 said:


> I've explained that pretty clearly. If you are white and commit crimes, law enforcement treats you with kid gloves... YOu shoot 4 ATF Agents, and the FBI spends 51 days trying to talk you into giving yourself up.
> 
> Criming While White.
> 
> If you are a black kid who steals some cigars or plays with a toy gun, they shoot you on site.


What do you suppose accounts for this apparent disparity?  Can it be the fact that many Blacks are incapable of objective perception.  This results in a sense of right and wrong which is opposite that of the existing social order.  For example, you think of a 6'2" 300 lb male who already has demonstrated his innately violent criminal nature as a "kid" (a child).

What this means is those who think and behave that way belong to a category of relatively uncivilized persons who collectively and individually represent a lethal threat to the social order.  The fact that you can perceive a violent thug as a "kid," thereby ignoring the insidious nature of his obvious orientation and capabilities, places you and others who think like you in a separate category from White people, the vast majority of whom have a clear perception of reality and are not inclined to behave in the irrational manner which is typical of those in the n!gger category.

The majority of contemporary Black Americans do not belong to this violent, anti-social category.  They are decent, hard-working, peaceful people who know the difference between right and wrong.  Unfortunately their position in American society is compromised by the relatively uncivilized behavior of the n!gger category which consists of those Blacks whose essential nature and uncontrollable temperament resembles that of predatory, opportunistic creatures.  They really do not know right from wrong.  They lie instinctively.  They cannot be trusted under any circumstances and are inclined to psychopathic violence.


----------



## JoeB131

MikeK said:


> What do you suppose accounts for this apparent disparity? Can it be the fact that many Blacks are incapable of objective perception. This results in a sense of right and wrong which is opposite that of the existing social order. For example, you think of a 6'2" 300 lb male who already has demonstrated his innately violent criminal nature as a "kid" (a child).



18 years old is a kid from my perspective.  But I find it amusing you are okay with a cop shooting him for "Grand Theft Cigar", when you defend the Davidians after they killed 4 ATF agents and ever given every chance to surrender peacefully. 

But you go on defending "Criming while white!"


----------



## MikeK

JoeB131 said:


> 18 years old is a kid from my perspective.  But I find it amusing you are okay with a cop shooting him for "Grand Theft Cigar", when you defend the Davidians after they killed 4 ATF agents and ever given every chance to surrender peacefully.
> 
> But you go on defending "Criming while white!"


Your assessment of why Brown was killed is a textbook example of what I mean by not knowing right from wrong.  Brown was shot for attacking a cop, attempting to take his weapon and attempting to escape.  Ptl. Wilson wasn't aware of Brown's actions in the cigar store when he killed him but it certainly does serve to further justify the killing. 

Re: the Davidians' killing the four ATF agents:  I along with millions of other Constitution-loving Americans believe those shootings were perfectly justified.  The Davidians had done nothing to justify that raid.  The raid was not only unnecessary, it was unlawful.  The warrant was wholly defective and was not presented when entry was demanded.  The only reason some guilt was attached to the Davidians' actions was the cover-up and manipulation of the facts by the federal law-enforcement bureaucracy. 

The Davidians defended themselves against heavily armed, masked raiders who were attempting to break into their home.  That is the uncomplicated reality.  In a truly free society there would be no further consideration.


----------



## TheGreatGatsby

Mrs. M. said:


> LA RAM FAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> emilynghiem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay- Any custody court in the country would have awarded custody of Elian to his father.
> 
> And four investigations determined the Davidians committed mass suicide.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dear JoeB131 I know a minister in Houston with experience counseling "apocalyptic Christians" who had been on the scene asking to negotiate with the Davidians and their leaders. He was denied access at that point because of security issues that already went too far in the wrong direction. He was able to counsel the surviving members but too late to save the larger group from violent destruction and death.
> 
> had this been set up correctly, nobody needed to die. it was not handled properly.
> 
> And neither are immigration policies that split families and cost taxpayers for lack of accountability,
> enforcement, deterrence of violations and RESTITUTION for crimes and trafficking:
> http://www.earnedamnesty.org It will take all sectors to team up to solve the border issues.
> Trump as an independent business man is more able to cross over barriers to work out such
> collaborative solutions. Clinton can't even go after crooks if she uses the law to hide her own party's collusions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> yeah they didnt need to die but the clintons same as the Bushs take pleasure in the sufferering and murdering of others so in their minds of course all those children DID have to die a horrible death no less.
> 
> some of the suvivors said there were people coming out saying dont shoot,yet the ATF mowed them down and of course they did not get any punishment for their deeds,they got rewarded to no surprise.The clintons were probably the ones that encouraged the agency to reward them for their actions no less.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Reno's order to storm Waco compound and mass murder 80 people including 24 children didn't happen without Clinton's approval.  Bill and Hillary Clinton have a special hatred for Christians.  We know this.
> 
> Wikileaks emails uncovered a discussion in which they were openly hostile to Catholics - it's already out there and if anyone thinks that Hillary Clinton's administration will not go after Christians with a vengeance is dangerously naive about who Hillary Clinton is.
Click to expand...


Luckily, The Trump Train smashed the Clintons.


----------



## JoeB131

MikeK said:


> Your assessment of why Brown was killed is a textbook example of what I mean by not knowing right from wrong. Brown was shot for attacking a cop, attempting to take his weapon and attempting to escape. Ptl. Wilson wasn't aware of Brown's actions in the cigar store when he killed him but it certainly does serve to further justify the killing.



ONce he was running away from the officer, shooting him wasn't acceptable.  Of course, Wilson lied about knowing about the robbery, too.  But it was okay, the White DA whitewashed that.  Also put a woman who was delusional in front of the Grand Jury and suborned perjury... But that's okay with you. 



MikeK said:


> Re: the Davidians' killing the four ATF agents: I along with millions of other Constitution-loving Americans believe those shootings were perfectly justified.



Of course you do. Because you're a nut.  so once again, you are okay with WHITE people killing law enforcement. 

Criming while White, baby.  

For me, I'm happy that 80 or so kiddy-diddly cultists are out of the gene pool.


----------



## blastoff

JoeB131 said:


> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> What do you suppose accounts for this apparent disparity? Can it be the fact that many Blacks are incapable of objective perception. This results in a sense of right and wrong which is opposite that of the existing social order. For example, you think of a 6'2" 300 lb male who already has demonstrated his innately violent criminal nature as a "kid" (a child).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 18 years old is a kid from my perspective.  But I find it amusing you are okay with a cop shooting him for "Grand Theft Cigar", when you defend the Davidians after they killed 4 ATF agents and ever given every chance to surrender peacefully.
> 
> But you go on defending "Criming while white!"
Click to expand...

Yeah, dipshit, and you go on ignoring the thankfully dead black criminal thug Brown attacked a cop sitting in his car and attempted to take his gun from him.  Which ultimately lead to his dead ass on the street.  Chalk one up for karma.


----------



## westwall

JoeB131 said:


> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your assessment of why Brown was killed is a textbook example of what I mean by not knowing right from wrong. Brown was shot for attacking a cop, attempting to take his weapon and attempting to escape. Ptl. Wilson wasn't aware of Brown's actions in the cigar store when he killed him but it certainly does serve to further justify the killing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ONce he was running away from the officer, shooting him wasn't acceptable.  Of course, Wilson lied about knowing about the robbery, too.  But it was okay, the White DA whitewashed that.  Also put a woman who was delusional in front of the Grand Jury and suborned perjury... But that's okay with you.
> 
> 
> 
> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> 
> Re: the Davidians' killing the four ATF agents: I along with millions of other Constitution-loving Americans believe those shootings were perfectly justified.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Of course you do. Because you're a nut.  so once again, you are okay with WHITE people killing law enforcement.
> 
> Criming while White, baby.
> 
> For me, I'm happy that 80 or so kiddy-diddly cultists are out of the gene pool.
Click to expand...






He never said that asshat.  And, for the record, when the ATF launched the raid without the Warrant being on the premises...do you know what that's called??????








  Yup.  It's a CRIME!  So, the only people provably committing a crime on the day of the raid was the ATF.  Now piss off stalinist asshole.


----------



## tyroneweaver

Since janet died. I would short Copenhagen chew.


----------



## JoeB131

blastoff said:


> Yeah, dipshit, and you go on ignoring the thankfully dead black criminal thug Brown attacked a cop sitting in his car and attempted to take his gun from him. Which ultimately lead to his dead ass on the street. Chalk one up for karma.



When the fatal shots were fired, the kid was 100 feet away from Officer McShooty, with his hands up.


----------



## MikeK

JoeB131 said:


> ONce he was running away from the officer, shooting him wasn't acceptable.  Of course, Wilson lied about knowing about the robbery, too.  But it was okay, the White DA whitewashed that.  Also put a woman who was delusional in front of the Grand Jury and suborned perjury... But that's okay with you.


I don't know what you mean by "acceptable" but the killing of Michael Brown was judged on its _legality,_ not whether it was _acceptable._  The law in Missouri (and in most other states) holds that a peace officer may use deadly force to subdue or to apprehend a fleeing felon who has demonstrated lethally violent behavior then resists arrest.  Brown's attacking Wilson and attempting to to seize Wilson's gun, then attempting to flee, satisfies that criterion by showing Brown to be a menace to society.

The only reason such a media sensation was made of this incident is the lies put forth by the mob of Brown-friendly "eye-witnesses."


----------



## JoeB131

westwall said:


> He never said that asshat. And, for the record, when the ATF launched the raid without the Warrant being on the premises...do you know what that's called??????



Irrelevent?  

Again, that's an issue you fight out in court, not on a doorstep with machine guns. 



westwall said:


> Yup. It's a CRIME! So, the only people provably committing a crime on the day of the raid was the ATF. Now piss off stalinist asshole.



Yet 11 Davidians were tried and convicted in their roles in the shooting, but no ATF Agents were. 

Wait, wait. I know... 





.


----------



## JoeB131

MikeK said:


> I don't know what you mean by "acceptable," but the killing of Michael Brown was judged on its _legality_ not whether it was _acceptable._ The law in Missouri (and most other states) holds that a peace officer may use deadly force to subdue or to apprehend a fleeing felon who has demonstrated lethally violent behavior then resists arrest. Brown's attacking Wilson and attempting to to seize his gun, then attempting to flee, satisfies that criterion by showing Brown to be a menace to society.



And you are still trying to claim that Kiddly-diddling cultists weren't a bigger threat to society?


----------



## MikeK

JoeB131 said:


> Yet 11 Davidians were tried and convicted in their roles in the shooting, but no ATF Agents were.


But if the Davidians were Black you'd be complaining about that, calling it racism -- and you know it.


----------



## MikeK

JoeB131 said:


> And you are still trying to claim that Kiddly-diddling cultists weren't a bigger threat to society?


If that is your best effort you would serve your interest better by saying nothing.


----------



## MikeK

JoeB131 said:


> Again, that's an issue you fight out in court, not on a doorstep with machine guns.


So said King George to George Washington.

But that was a long time ago and much has changed where the _Spirit of '76_ is concerned.  The percentage of Americans who have acquired an authoritarian/submissive orientation has grown and continues to increase year-by-year.  In this example degradation of the Liberty spirit is manifest in the expressed willingness to submit to authority rather than to defend the sanctity and privacy of one's home.  The _Castle Doctrine_ was contemptuously ignored.

Correctly believing the government agents had no just cause to break into and search their home the Davidians chose to defend that sovereign right.  Koresh believed the American People would rise in support of the Davidians' decision if they knew the truth, but the federal agents blocked access to the media.  In spite of the fact that reporters demanding access to the Davidians were willing to assume all responsibility for their personal safety the federal agents isolated them to a location about a mile away from the site of the standoff.  They were also denied access by telephone.

The American People tolerated this oppressive isolation thus allowing the Waco Massacre to occur as the symbolic death of the First and Fourth Amendments.


----------



## JoeB131

MikeK said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yet 11 Davidians were tried and convicted in their roles in the shooting, but no ATF Agents were.
> 
> 
> 
> But if the Davidians were Black you'd be complaining about that, calling it racism -- and you know it.
Click to expand...


Um.. no. You shoot a cop, you generally get no sympathy from me. 



MikeK said:


> So said King George to George Washington.



Uh, no, he didn't.  In fact, King George was willing to accommedate the Founding Slave Rapists...  



MikeK said:


> But that was a long time ago and much has changed where the _Spirit of '76_ is concerned. The percentage of Americans who have acquired an authoritarian/submissive orientation has grown and continues to increase year-by-year. In this example degradation of the Liberty spirit is manifest in the expressed willingness to submit to authority rather than to defend the sanctity and privacy of one's home. The _Castle Doctrine_ was contemptuously ignored.



You mean most people don't want to live next door to kiddy-diddling, gun dealing, meth-smoking cultists?  Um... yeah.  



MikeK said:


> Correctly believing the government agents had no just cause to break into and search their home the Davidians chose to defend that sovereign right. Koresh believed the American People would rise in support of the Davidians' decision if they knew the truth, but the federal agents blocked access to the media. In spite of the fact that reporters demanding access to the Davidians were willing to assume all responsibility for their personal safety the federal agents isolated them to a location about a mile away from the site of the standoff. They were also denied access by telephone.



Uh, no. MOst Americans thought the Davidians were scumbag cultists because they were scumbag cultists WHO WERE HAVING SEX WITH CHILDREN!!!!  



MikeK said:


> The American People tolerated this oppressive isolation thus allowing the Waco Massacre to occur as the symbolic death of the First and Fourth Amendments.



The First and Fourth Amendments are not "get out of jail free cards". 

The Davidians were illegally converting weapons.
They were molesting children.
They were dealing drugs.


----------



## JoeB131

MikeK said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> 
> And you are still trying to claim that Kiddly-diddling cultists weren't a bigger threat to society?
> 
> 
> 
> If that is your best effort you would serve your interest better by saying nothing.
Click to expand...


would you want the Davidians living next door to you?  I wouldn't.


----------



## MikeK

JoeB131 said:


> would you want the Davidians living next door to you?  I wouldn't.


Do you know (or do you not believe) the Davidians' neighbors (all of them) said the Davidians kept mainly to themselves but were friendly, helpful, peaceful people.  The local sheriff (Jack Harwell) also said they were "decent, responsible, cooperative people."  Sheriff Jack Harwell | Waco - The Inside Story | FRONTLINE | PBS

So why would you not want them living next door to you?


----------



## MikeK

JoeB131 said:


> Um.. no. You shoot a cop, you generally get no sympathy from me.


Really?  How about Patrolman Darrel Wilson, the cop who shot Mike Brown, the "kid" you have such sympathy for?

I don't believe you.



> Uh, no, he didn't.  In fact, King George was willing to accommedate the Founding Slave Rapists...


King George did on several occasions attempt to negotiate peaceful solutions to the tax controversy, along with some other differences that were brewing in the Colony.

As usual you don't know what you're talking about and you are inclined to invent your own interpretation of things.



> You mean most people don't want to live next door to kiddy-diddling, gun dealing, meth-smoking cultists?  Um... yeah.


The Davidians were federally licensed gun dealers who operated a perfectly legal, tax-paying business.  The rest of your slur derives from your twisted imagination.



> Uh, no. MOst Americans thought the Davidians were scumbag cultists because they were scumbag cultists WHO WERE HAVING SEX WITH CHILDREN!!!!


Only those Americans who share your warped imagination and who are as receptive to government brainwash as you are believe that.  Such scurrilous lies appeal to that mentality.



> The First and Fourth Amendments are not "get out of jail free cards".
> 
> The Davidians were illegally converting weapons.
> They were molesting children.
> They were dealing drugs.


There is absolutely no evidence to support any of those lies.  What you've posted are the kind of vile imaginings which are readily accepted and propagated by the degenerate mentality.

The only element of truth contained above refers to converting weapons.  The Davidians did manufacture and sell conversion kits -- *which were 100% legal at that time.*  The only possible complaint ATF had against the Davidians was the _possibility_ that the Davidians were testing their kits without a special full-auto license, which would have been a relatively minor technical violation -- certainly not serious enough to justify that melodramatically excessive and unnecessary raid.  ATF had no evidence that any actual test conversions were done, however temporarily.  They simply assumed that, which is not evidence.  Koresh consistently denied it, which is what pissed the ATF commander off.  Each time the issue arose Koresh told ATF he was not test-converting weapons and if they wished to inspect his inventory they need only make a mutually convenient appointment.

Thus the unlawful raid that resulted in the death of 21 children, along with many adults on both sides, the waste of many millions of taxpayer dollars, and one of the most shameful examples of federal oppression in American history.


----------



## JoeB131

MikeK said:


> Do you know (or do you not believe) the Davidians' neighbors (all of them) said the Davidians kept mainly to themselves but were friendly, helpful, peaceful people. The local sheriff (Jack Harwell) also said they were "decent, responsible, cooperative people." Sheriff Jack Harwell | Waco - The Inside Story | FRONTLINE | PBS
> 
> So why would you not want them living next door to you?



because they were creepy ass, kiddy-diddling cultists?  Come on, you ask like this is even a question. 

Oh, yeah, and they had a fixation on guns and the end of the world. 



MikeK said:


> Really? How about Patrolman Darrel Wilson, the cop who shot Mike Brown, the "kid" you have such sympathy for?
> 
> I don't believe you.



Except nobody shot Wilson...so, um, no. Obviously, reading comprehension wasn't one of those things they didn't cover with you at home school



MikeK said:


> King George did on several occasions attempt to negotiate peaceful solutions to the tax controversy, along with some other differences that were brewing in the Colony.
> 
> As usual you don't know what you're talking about and you are inclined to invent your own interpretation of things.




again- go back and read what I said. The British were willing to accommedate the colonists.  again, it's that reading comprehension thing. 



MikeK said:


> There is absolutely no evidence to support any of those lies. What you've posted are the kind of vile imaginings which are readily accepted and propagated by the degenerate mentality.




Again, Michelle Jones.  

Was 11 years old when Koresh started having sex with her. Was 13 when Koresh impregnated her with twins.  

Koresh was having sex with Children.  Deal with it.


----------



## MikeK

JoeB131 said:


> because they were creepy ass, kiddy-diddling cultists?  Come on, you ask like this is even a question.
> 
> Again, Michelle Jones.
> 
> Was 11 years old when Koresh started having sex with her. Was 13 when Koresh impregnated her with twins.
> 
> Koresh was having sex with Children.  Deal with it.


Koresh's pedophilic relations with Michelle Jones did not become an issue until survivors of the fire were questioned.  Rumors of Koresh having relations with "children" arose years before the raid.  Those rumors were investigated by the local sheriff and the Texas Department of Social Services and were declared unfounded.

ATF made use of these rumors by adding "suspicion of child molestation" to their warrant affidavit, which was invalid because ATF has no jurisdiction in such matters and there was no mention of evidence for their _suspicion.  _These rumors, which involved one individual, David Koresh, quickly expanded into allegations of mass pedophilic orgies involving the entire Davidian assembly.

ATF's only legitimate concern was based on their transactions with Koresh, whom they could have arrested any Monday to Friday morning during his walks to and from the local Post Office, which they knew.  There was absolutely no necessity for that raid.  The only reason the BATF wasn't disbanded, or its commanders severely punished, is to do so would have been an admission of grievous error by a federal agency resulting in massive lawsuits and censure extending to the White House.

There was no evidence, not even the slightest suggestion of pedophilic activity involving any Davidian other than David Koresh, therefore no reason to denounce the Davidians as a "child-molesting cult."

Even if the charges made against Koresh are true, does that justify what the FBI/HRT did?  The FBI repeatedly told the Press they believed Koresh to be a psychopath.  A lawyer, Dick DeGuerrin, who spoke with Koresh by phone, told the FBI -- and the media -- that Koresh had threatened to set fire to the compound if any attempt was made to breach.  Koresh, himself, repeatedly issued the same warning.  So, having cause to believe Koresh was a psycho who threatened to start a fire if they attempted to break in HRT did exactly that -- knowing there were 21 innocent, helpless children in there.

That is the solitary point of this discussion.  Nothing else.  Even if all the accusations made against the Davidians were true, nothing justifies ATF's raid or HRT's breach of the compound's wall.


----------



## JoeB131

MikeK said:


> Koresh's pedophilic relations with Michelle Jones did not become an issue until survivors of the fire were questioned. Rumors of Koresh having relations with "children" arose years before the raid. Those rumors were investigated by the local sheriff and the Texas Department of Social Services and were declared unfounded.



You're dodging the question. If the DSS had done their job, they'd have seen Michelle with a big old baby bump and said, "What the fuck! She's 13!!!!"  



MikeK said:


> There was no evidence, not even the slightest suggestion of pedophilic activity involving any Davidian other than David Koresh, therefore no reason to denounce the Davidians as a "child-molesting cult."



Uh, dude, the rest of the cultists let that shit happen. 



MikeK said:


> Even if the charges made against Koresh are true, does that justify what the FBI/HRT did? The FBI repeatedly told the Press they believed Koresh to be a psychopath. A lawyer, Dick DeGuerrin, who spoke with Koresh by phone, told the FBI -- and the media -- that Koresh had threatened to set fire to the compound if any attempt was made to breach. Koresh, himself, repeatedly issued the same warning. So, having cause to believe Koresh was a psycho who threatened to start a fire if they attempted to break in HRT did exactly that -- knowing there were 21 innocent, helpless children in there.



So let me get this straight... Koresh was a psychopath, who was threatening to set the place on fire, and therefor the FBI was wrong in trying to rescue those kids?  Is this your argument?


----------



## MikeK

JoeB131 said:


> So let me get this straight... Koresh was a psychopath, who was threatening to set the place on fire, and therefor the FBI was wrong in trying to rescue those kids?  Is this your argument?


No.  My argument is they should not have tried to rescue those kids by doing exactly what the man they had cause to believe was a psycho said he would do if any such attempt was made.  

I know that reasoning is difficult for you to grasp but one would hope that trained FBI agents would realize that when you're standing in a puddle of gasoline it's not wise to light any matches.


----------



## MikeK

JoeB131 said:


> [...]
> 
> You're dodging the question. If the DSS had done their job, they'd have seen Michelle with a big old baby bump and said, "What the fuck! She's 13!!!!"
> 
> [...]


You presume a lot.

Even if Michelle was pregnant during the DSS investigation, have you ever heard of Traci Lords?  Look her up.  She started making porn films at age 14 by showing a forged birth certificate.  She was the Number One porn start in the U.S. by age 15.  

You weren't there, so don't assume so much.  There is a multitude of possibilities which you cannot simply take for granted.


----------



## MikeK

JoeB131 said:


> Uh, dude, the rest of the cultists let that shit happen.


Can you say for certain how many Davidians were aware of these clandestine sexual activities?  Or are you just making assumptions based on what you wish to be true?

Consider the revelations of clandestine sexual activity in the Catholic Church that went on for _no one really knows_ how long.  I attended Catholic School and Academy for a total of thirteen years and I never heard any such rumors.  The same applies to my older brother who also served mass at St. Francis Xavier.

In spite of my exposure to one of the most intensive religions I was secretly an atheist from about age fourteen.  But our late mother was a devout Catholic who would have been devastated by even the vaguest rumor of sexual activity in the Church.

Whatever the situation it was sufficiently secretive to elude discovery by the local sheriff and the Texas DSS.  So you can't just assume that all, or even many, of the Davidians knew all that went on behind closed doors.


----------



## JoeB131

MikeK said:


> Even if Michelle was pregnant during the DSS investigation, have you ever heard of Traci Lords? Look her up. She started making porn films at age 14 by showing a forged birth certificate. She was the Number One porn start in the U.S. by age 15.
> 
> You weren't there, so don't assume so much. There is a multitude of possibilities which you cannot simply take for granted.



So the thing is, they didn't do their jobs.  Koresh was molesting children.  Therefore the ATF was perfectly justified in going after him. 



MikeK said:


> Can you say for certain how many Davidians were aware of these clandestine sexual activities? Or are you just making assumptions based on what you wish to be true?



They all lived together in a big old compound... Please... your rationalizations for Koresh and his followers just keep getting weaker. 



MikeK said:


> No. My argument is they should not have tried to rescue those kids by doing exactly what the man they had cause to believe was a psycho said he would do if any such attempt was made.
> 
> I know that reasoning is difficult for you to grasp but one would hope that trained FBI agents would realize that when you're standing in a puddle of gasoline it's not wise to light any matches.



So you let him get away with murdering four ATF Agents because he threatens to burn some kids alive?  YOu do realize you just get crazier the longer you go on. 

Yes, Waco was a tragedy, but it was a tragedy caused by deluded cultists who frankly, no one is going to miss.


----------



## TheGreatGatsby

Mrs. M. said:


> Does anyone remember this famous speech by Bill Clinton in which he reminds the American people that while he was president, his wife Hillary Clinton having conversations with the dead - Mrs. Roosevelt?  The story is famous in Bob Woodward's book about Hillary Clinton talking to dead people.
> 
> Mrs. Clinton should contact Janet Reno and ask her about the temperature where she is so she can make an informed decision as to whether or not she wants to join her there in the future.



The crowd laughs as if he's joking; he doesn't give any indication it's a joke and seriously reinforces the point. Wow!


----------

