# The three choices Truman had. Was there really any choice?



## Theowl32 (May 28, 2016)

The real reason the US dropped the bombs on Japan IMO. After the Yalta conference, it is important to know that is when the official COLD WAR began with the USSR. It is important to know WHEN that was. February of 1945. Ok? About 6 months before the Hiroshima bomb. 

The USSR (Stalin) was making a power move. Yalta became controversial after Soviet-American wartime cooperation degenerated into the cold war. Stalin broke his promise of free elections in Eastern Europe and installed governments dominated by the Soviet Union. Then American critics charged that Roosevelt, who died two months after the conference, had “sold out” to the Soviets at Yalta.

Stalin was not stopping there. He was also encroaching in the Far East. The valuable trade routes were certainly catching his attention. It is apparent that there were clandestine meetings going on between Japan and the USSR. I am sure Stalin was negotiating for Japan to surrender to him and Japan would be able to save some face with the Japanese people. Making it attractive to the emperor.

This is the interesting timeline.

February 1945 the Yalta Conference where the official COLD WAR began.

August 6th 1945, the US drops bomb on Hiroshima.

August 8th 1945, the USSR declares WAR ON JAPAN after invading Japan after the USSR invades Manchuria.

August 9th 1945, second bomb dropped on Japan.

August 15th 1945, Japan surrenders and ends WWII.

Now, imagine this if you are in Truman's shoes. It is rather obvious the USSR was pushing its weight around and trying to take Japan. Stalin counting on the fact that the US could not stomach another long drawn out war. Not with Japan (that was over) but with the USSR.

Patton had seen this and wanted to go to war with the USSR. He rightfully pointed out that the USSR would be a major problem, and their army was greatly weakened. Many of their war factories were bombed where the US war factories were in perfect working order. The US Armed forces hardware were already in the region and so the logistics were pretty much in place.

Politically, it would have been impossible for Truman to sell that to the American people. Stalin counted on that and he used that as an opportunity to take Japan.

So, what are the choices?

1. Allow Japan to just surrender to Stalin and the USSR takes over the region even though they had NOT fought in that campaign and lost no one. How would that have been sold to the American people?


2. Go to war with the USSR like Patton wanted. The US would most likely have won the war, but we would not have had an ally in the UK who were decimated. It would have cost hundreds of thousands of lives. The USSR Army, while greatly weakened would have been very tough to beat. How would that have been sold to a war weary American public?

3. Drop the bombs to get the USSR to back the hell off. Sell it like it has been sold all of these years. It is true that it would have saved thousands of American lives. Just not with Japan, but with a HOT conflict with the USSR.


Those are the choices. What do you do? It is important to remember that the "axis and allies" of WWII was done after the Yalta Conference. That is precisely when the COLD WAR began. No longer at the time of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were the USSR and the US allies.

What do you do?


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## Arianrhod (May 28, 2016)

This assumes Japan would surrender to the USSR.  Why would they?


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## ScienceRocks (May 28, 2016)

no goood choice


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## Theowl32 (May 28, 2016)

Arianrhod said:


> This assumes Japan would surrender to the USSR.  Why would they?



Well, if it would possibly save face for the emperor. The emperor would have been open to anything. Remember, the Japanese people considered him to be a god of some kind.


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## TheOldSchool (May 28, 2016)

Theowl32 said:


> The real reason the US dropped the bombs on Japan IMO. After the Yalta conference, it is important to know that is when the official COLD WAR began with the USSR. It is important to know WHEN that was. February of 1945. Ok? About 6 months before the Hiroshima bomb.
> 
> The USSR (Stalin) was making a power move. Yalta became controversial after Soviet-American wartime cooperation degenerated into the cold war. Stalin broke his promise of free elections in Eastern Europe and installed governments dominated by the Soviet Union. Then American critics charged that Roosevelt, who died two months after the conference, had “sold out” to the Soviets at Yalta.
> 
> ...


Option 4.  Sign a peace treaty with Japan, nuke Moscow, and take over the world!!!


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## georgephillip (May 28, 2016)

Theowl32 said:


> Now, imagine this if you are in Truman's shoes. It is rather obvious the USSR was pushing its weight around and trying to take Japan.


The Soviet army invades Korea a full month before the US arrives. If Stalin wanted Japan, why did he share Korea?
A Pop Quiz on Korea


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## IsaacNewton (May 28, 2016)

The Soviet Union didn't want to 'take' Japan. Stalin just wanted to gobble up as much territory in China as he could before the war ended. Even after Japan surrendered the Soviet Army continued pushing into China to grab territory and say they helped defeat Japan and should have a say in any peace deal afterwards. 

Truman dropped the bombs to end the war quick and save hundreds of thousands of American lives, that is what he said many times. And it worked.


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## Picaro (May 28, 2016)

Re option 2 the Soviet Union wasn't that hard to beat, as it was us who kept them in the war at all; while a substantial amount of western aid was still in their hands, and their machine tools were up to date, it wouldn't have been enough to stop a U.S. effort to drive them out of the eastern European countries and back to their own borders.


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## georgephillip (May 28, 2016)

*"DWIGHT EISENHOWER*

"...in [July] 1945... Secretary of War Stimson, visiting my headquarters in Germany, informed me that our government was preparing to drop an atomic bomb on Japan. 

"*I was one of those who felt that there were a number of cogent reasons to question the wisdom of such an act*. ...the Secretary, upon giving me the news of the successful bomb test in New Mexico, and of the plan for using it, asked for my reaction, apparently expecting a vigorous assent.

"During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, *and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives*. 

"It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of 'face'. The Secretary was deeply perturbed by my attitude..."
Hiroshima: Quotes
- Dwight Eisenhower, _Mandate For Change_, pg. 380


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## Theowl32 (May 28, 2016)

Picaro said:


> Re option 2 the Soviet Union wasn't that hard to beat, as it was us who kept them in the war at all; while a substantial amount of western aid was still in their hands, and their machine tools were up to date, it wouldn't have been enough to stop a U.S. effort to drive them out of the eastern European countries and back to their own borders.


They had a substantial army. That is not really the point though. I think the US could beat them, just based on the significant logistical advantages. However, it would have been an endeavor that Truman would NOT have been able to sell.

The simple fact is Stalin was encroaching on the far east. It was very valuable and Japan dominated the entire region. They were formidable and extremely ruthless. Even more ruthless than the nazis.

A famous very disturbing photo of a Chinese baby on a bayonet.






Anyway, the strange coincidence that the DAY BEFORE the US dropped "fat man" on Nagasaki, the USSR had declared WAR ON JAPAN. That was on August 8th and August 9th the US dropped second bomb.

Effectively ending the war and clearly stopping Stalin's encroachment. That is until they got a bomb of their own. Thanks Rosenbergs.

So, the bombs were as much about stopping the USSR or at the very least letting them know what will happen if they are pushed to a HOT war.


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## there4eyeM (May 28, 2016)

4. Instead of wasting bombs on helpless Japanese, nuke Moscow with Stalin and the entire leadership there. The totally subservient Soviet system, lacking all orders from the no longer existent 'top', would have crumbled.


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## Theowl32 (May 28, 2016)

there4eyeM said:


> 4. Instead of wasting bombs on helpless Japanese, nuke Moscow with Stalin and the entire leadership there. The totally subservient Soviet system, lacking all orders from the no longer existent 'top', would have crumbled.



Yeah, uhhh, the soviets still had significant defenses. The Enola Gay flew over Japan unescorted cause the Japanese did not even have pilots. 

If the US "bombed" the soviets (the US did not have an endless supply of atomic weapons) it would have been an almost impossible sell. The country was weary and did not have the stomach for what would have been a long drawn out campaign. 

So, your choice would have been for a hot war with the soviets? 

Interesting.


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## Syriusly (May 28, 2016)

Theowl32 said:


> Arianrhod said:
> 
> 
> > This assumes Japan would surrender to the USSR.  Why would they?
> ...



But why would they surrender to the Soviets?

The Soviets were strong- but had absolutely no way to invade Japan. They wouldn't have been able to even attack Japan by air since they had few if any long range bombers and no aircraft carriers.

The only ones with the capability to invade Japan was the United States and its allies. 

What you have proposed is an interesting suggestion- but I don't think it is well fleshed out or completely supported by the facts.

Why did the Soviets attack when they did?

Because they knew the bomb attack was coming and the invasion soon after that  and they wanted to lay claim to as much Japanese outlying territory as they could before the war was over.


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## Syriusly (May 28, 2016)

there4eyeM said:


> 4. Instead of wasting bombs on helpless Japanese, nuke Moscow with Stalin and the entire leadership there. The totally subservient Soviet system, lacking all orders from the no longer existent 'top', would have crumbled.



Well a few problems with that:
a) Why do you think that the entire leadership would have been there?
b) That would have been political suicide in the United States for Truman- the Soviets were still seen as our allies.
c) It would have been illegal as hell- since we were not at war with the Soviets- Truman rightfully could have been impeached, tried and convicted of war crimes for doing such a thing.


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## Syriusly (May 28, 2016)

Picaro said:


> Re option 2 the Soviet Union wasn't that hard to beat, as it was us who kept them in the war at all; while a substantial amount of western aid was still in their hands, and their machine tools were up to date, it wouldn't have been enough to stop a U.S. effort to drive them out of the eastern European countries and back to their own borders.



By 1945 that was no longer the case. By 1945 the Soviets had the most powerful army in the world, and likely the second most powerful air force. Their factories had been moved far east, and they had all of the Western rail engines to move their cargo with. 

We easily could have lost more men than we lost against either Germany or Japan- the Soviets had superior armor, more artillery, and a decent air force. Our strengths- our naval power- was meaningless against the Soviets- our air power would likely have prevailed eventually- but until then our armor would have been chopped up by Soviet T34/85's and JS II's and JS III's.


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## Theowl32 (May 28, 2016)

Syriusly said:


> Theowl32 said:
> 
> 
> > Arianrhod said:
> ...



I am following the timeline, beginning with the Yalta conference. Just to reiterate that history will show that it is after this conference in Feb of 1945 that the COLD WAR officially started. 

Then combined with the Soviets invading Manchuria and declaring war on Japan on August 8th (two days AFTER Hiroshima) one day BEFORE the US dropped FAT MAN. 

It is apparent that the emperor could have seen this as an opportunity to save face with the people. I mean he could have spun it any which way. They certainly controlled the media whatever that was in Japan. 

Just remember that at the time of the bombing that the US and soviets were NO LONGER allies. It is a strange overlap in history but significant. 

Lets assume for one moment Japan was thinking about surrendering to Stalin and Stalin was encroaching into the region (he already held up a big middle finger to Britain and the US and essentially said what are you gonna do about it) what would you have done. 

I am basing it on facts in evidence from the cold war to when they declared war on Japan and it being the VERY NEXT DAY they dropped FAT MAN.


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## whitehall (May 28, 2016)

Propaganda photos notwithstanding it seems that the Japanese holdouts were desperate to surrender but Truman refused to talk except to demand unconditional surrender. Meanwhile the Japanese were trying to negotiate with an American ally, Joe Stalin. The issue the Japanese had with the terms of surrender was a guarantee that the emperor would not be tried for war crimes and executed. After both bombs were dropped on civilians ironically the Japanese emperor was saved. Should Truman have adhered to harsh surrender terms dictated by a dead man (FDR) or should he have tried to avoid the incineration of innocent Japanese civilians with nuclear weapons? My guess is that Truman was pressured by the egg head scientists who worked so hard on the Bomb and were dying to use it on humans.


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## there4eyeM (May 28, 2016)

What a lack of imagination.
The Soviets would not have been looking for an Enola Gay and would not have intercepted it. They, nor anyone else, would have known what hit them. The Soviet system was notoriously top-down. Take out an officer and the entire unit stopped until politically correct replacements were found. A few key generals assassinated concurrently, and Bob's your uncle. 
Make it look like some kind of Nazi vengeance weapon, or a Soviet accident. Or show there was Soviet provocation, with 'proof' they were about to invade France. By the time anyone had the slightest idea about the 'truth' (whatever that was or is), it would all be a 'fait accompli'. 
Look at the Gulf of Tonkin, the Mexican-American War, the Iraq invasion. People still believe the excuses. Heck, some still think Pearl Harbor was a surprise!
No Iron Curtain. No Cold War. Perfect and permanent U.S. hegemony. Pax Americana for generations.


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## Unkotare (May 28, 2016)

Ignored Japanese Peace Bids Plague U. S., West, with What Might Have Been (August 14, 1965)


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## Unkotare (May 28, 2016)

MILITARY VIEWS About Dropping the Atomic Bomb


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## whitehall (May 28, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> MILITARY VIEWS About Dropping the Atomic Bomb


All I can come up with is "page 1 of 192 of the Chicago Trib" and I really don't want to download 192 pages. It's interesting to note that the Chicago Trib might be coming clean about the Truman administration (or maybe defending it)  20 years after the fact. Everything is political.


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## Unkotare (May 28, 2016)

Ignored Japanese Peace Bids Plague U. S., West, with What Might Have Been (August 14, 1965)


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## Unkotare (May 28, 2016)

whitehall said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > MILITARY VIEWS About Dropping the Atomic Bomb
> ...



MILITARY VIEWS About Dropping the Atomic Bomb

"In official internal military interviews, diaries and other private as well as public materials, literally every top U.S. military leader involved subsequently stated that the use of the bomb was not dictated by military necessity."


"In his memoirs Admiral William D. Leahy, the President's Chief of Staff--and the top official who presided over meetings of both the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the Combined U.S.-U.K. Chiefs of Staff--minced few words:



[T]he use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender. . . .


_n being the first to use it, we . . . adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children. (See p. 3, Introduction)
Privately, on June 18, 1945--almost a month before the Emperor's July intervention to seek an end to the war and seven weeks before the atomic bomb was used--Leahy recorded in his diary:



It is my opinion at the present time that a surrender of Japan can be arranged with terms that can be accepted by Japan and that will make fully satisfactory provisions for America's defense against future trans-Pacific aggression. (See p. 324, Chapter 26)"_


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## Syriusly (May 29, 2016)

Theowl32 said:


> [Q
> I am basing it on facts in evidence from the cold war to when they declared war on Japan and it being the VERY NEXT DAY they dropped FAT MAN.



That is thin evidence indeed.

The Soviets knew about the atomic bomb program.

They wanted to grab up as much territory as possible before Japan surrendered. 

The plan for the second bomb being dropped was in effect before the Soviets declared war on Japan- and had nothing to do with the second bomb being dropped.

The Emperor didn't care about his 'face' with the Japanese people- in the end he pushed for surrender to save Japanese lives.


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## Theowl32 (May 29, 2016)

Syriusly said:


> Theowl32 said:
> 
> 
> > [Q
> ...



http://ic.galegroup.com/ic/uhic/ReferenceDetailsPage/DocumentToolsPortletWindow?displayGroupName=Reference&u=oak30216&u=oak30216&jsid=885fa2cddb280d23cd06bf9c5ed436a5&p=UHIC:WHIC&action=2&catId=&documentId=GALE|CX2876300010&zid=4a6103da6d025e4543bf83800209eb8f

_Since then, however, historians saw that the United States quickly turned from fighting the Japanese to challenging the Soviet Union. Recognizing that after the surrender of Germany, the Soviets were pledged to join the war against Japan, the United States had sought to end the Pacific war quickly before Soviet forces could move into East Asia. *The atomic bomb was meant both to prevent Soviet expansion into the Pacific and to demonstrate to Joseph Stalin that the United States possessed a weapon which could destroy any city in the world.*

This interpretation gained more credence among scholars after the Cold War became a fixture in world politics and after the Vietnam War demonstrated that some American leaders would not tell the nation the truth. Should the Vietnam experience discredit Truman? In these two essays, scholars Margaret Mary Barrett and Margo Dowling take different approaches to the question of the atomic bomb. Barrett sees the bombing as a cynical show of power against the Soviet Union. Dowling, on the other hand, argues that reading our contemporary biases into history distorts our understanding of it. One can make judgments about the past, but one cannot simply imagine that the men and women who acted in the past did so with motives we might understand. That is, we cannot simply explain the atomic bomb by taking President Truman’s word for why he made his decision. Nor can we condemn Truman as devious because we know that Lyndon B. Johnson or Richard M. Nixon was devious. Instead, we must try to take into account the world as Truman knew it and understand his decision in light of the facts he understood.

-----------------------------------------------------

The Soviet Union had entered the war against Japan, and the atomic bomb could be read as a strong message for the Soviets to tread lightly. In this respect, Hiroshima and Nagasaki may have been the first shots of the Cold War as well as the final shots of World War II. Regardless, the United States remains the only nation in the world to have used a nuclear weapon on another nation.
_
The Decision to Drop the Bomb [ushistory.org]

-------------------------------------------------------

There are many historians that have shown the Soviet influence in the region being a strong factor in the decision to drop both bombs, especially the second one.


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## CrusaderFrank (May 29, 2016)

Theowl32 said:


> The real reason the US dropped the bombs on Japan IMO. After the Yalta conference, it is important to know that is when the official COLD WAR began with the USSR. It is important to know WHEN that was. February of 1945. Ok? About 6 months before the Hiroshima bomb.
> 
> The USSR (Stalin) was making a power move. Yalta became controversial after Soviet-American wartime cooperation degenerated into the cold war. Stalin broke his promise of free elections in Eastern Europe and installed governments dominated by the Soviet Union. Then American critics charged that Roosevelt, who died two months after the conference, had “sold out” to the Soviets at Yalta.
> 
> ...



See how right Patton was about the USSR?

FDR was a Stalin sock puppet who gleefully enslaved Eastern Europe under the thumb of his M\aster, Uncle Joe and sold out China to Mao


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## there4eyeM (May 29, 2016)

Why not drop it on Imperial Army positions instead of civilian concentrations? That would have demonstrated the situation to everyone while at least remaining somewhat justifiable.


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## Theowl32 (May 29, 2016)

there4eyeM said:


> Why not drop it on Imperial Army positions instead of civilian concentrations? That would have demonstrated the situation to everyone while at least remaining somewhat justifiable.


Fair enough points. In those days it was not exactly known where the military installations were. It was not uncommon tactic to bomb cities. The fire bombing of Dresden for instance. The bombing of London etc. This is all a part of the paradigm and reality of a world with NO satellites. 

If you want to research the vast atrocities committed by the Japanese during that time period, go ahead and research these. 



Following Japan's brutal invasion of China in 1937, Japanese soldiers frequently rounded up Chinese to provide them with bayonet practice. After the fall of Nanking (Nanjing), these unfortunate Chinese were herded into one of many slaughter pits and are shown providing Japanese soldiers with bayonet practice using live victims. This photograph was taken by a Japanese and processed in a Japanese-owned photographic shop. A Chinese photographic technician made copies that were smuggled out of China.

*INDEX TO SELECTED IMPERIAL JAPANESE ARMY WAR CRIMES*

The Rape of Nanking (1937), also known as the Nanjing Massacre

The Bangka Island Massacre (1942): Slaughter of Australian Army Nurses

The Bataan Death March (1942)

The Sandakan Death March (1945)

Murder and cannibalism on the Kokoda Track (1942)

Conscripting women for sexual slavery in Japanese Army brothels (1937-1945)

Mutilation and murder of Dutch civilians in Borneo

Murder and cannibalism - captured American pilots

*INDEX TO SELECTED IMPERIAL JAPANESE NAVY WAR CRIMES*

Murder of American pilots and aircrew at Midway (1942)

The bombing of the hospital ship Manunda (1942)

The sinking of the hospital ship Centaur (1943)

Extermination of survivors of merchant vessels sunk by the Japanese (1943-45)
The History Place - Genocide in the 20th Century: Rape of Nanking 1937-38

Not saying it was not a tragedy and sad. I am saying there was more than one reason why Truman dropped the bombs, and the notion that he did it for the "fun of it" and it was because they were NOT WHITE is a pathetic lame attempt to show America as evil white racists....again.


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## there4eyeM (May 29, 2016)

That the Japanese committed atrocities is no justification for committing atrocities. To act the same way is to nullify differences between 'us' and 'them'.


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## Theowl32 (May 29, 2016)

there4eyeM said:


> That the Japanese committed atrocities is no justification for committing atrocities. To act the same way is to nullify differences between 'us' and 'them'.



Got it. I know what you are about. All America's fault. Their atrocities are not even on your radar. 

The overall point is the country avoided another potential lawn drawn out hot war with the USSR if not for the bombs. 

It is far more complicated than the SIMPLE notion that Truman was just a racist and hated the Japanese cause they were not white.  

BTW, do you know who were the most decorated unit in WWII was the 442nd. The Japanese American soldiers.


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## there4eyeM (May 29, 2016)

Every time 'got it' comes up, all that is shown is some kind of projection rather than understanding. The atrocities committed by America are America's fault. Justifying them by pointing out that others committed atrocities is ludicrous. No one is denying the militarists that ran Japan committed atrocities. GOT IT?


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## Theowl32 (May 29, 2016)

there4eyeM said:


> Every time 'got it' comes up, all that is shown is some kind of projection rather than understanding. The atrocities committed by America are America's fault. Justifying them by pointing out that others committed atrocities is ludicrous. No one is denying the militarists that ran Japan committed atrocities. GOT IT?


So, what would your choice be? 

1. Allow Stalin to bully his way and take over Japan even though they did little to nothing in that Pacific campaign. 

2. Declare a HOT WAR with Stalin and go with what Patton wanted? May have worked considering the fact that America had all of the logistical advantages at the time and there was a distinct possibility that the US and the USSR were going to get into a big conflict at a later date and the USSR would have had time to build a significant formidable army. 

3. Drop the bombs and force and unconditional response and in the process make the USSR withdraw from their nefarious intentions and thus avoiding a long HOT WAR with the USSR which would have cost hundreds of thousands, if not millions of lives. Not including the lives lost in an invasion of Japan in order to force their surrender without the bombs.


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## there4eyeM (May 29, 2016)

Your questions reflect and interesting 'take' on the time period. It is simply impossible for me to put myself in the position of decision maker at that time and select one of these options. I would definitely have found another choice. Sorry I can't conform to the request, which I am not saying is unreasonable as a 'thought experiment'. I do point out that the option of at least trying to take out Stalin and co. by nuking Moscow would not have been any more outrageous than what, in fact, was done.


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## Theowl32 (May 29, 2016)

there4eyeM said:


> Your questions reflect and interesting 'take' on the time period. It is simply impossible for me to put myself in the position of decision maker at that time and select one of these options. I would definitely have found another choice. Sorry I can't conform to the request, which I am not saying is unreasonable as a 'thought experiment'. I do point out that the option of at least trying to take out Stalin anndeavd co. by nuking Moscow would not have been any more outrageous than what, in fact, was done.


That would have been an impossible endeavor.  First of all a declaration of war would have needed to have been passed. That is and would have been an impossibility considering how congress would not have been willing to pass that.

Even if they did pass and grant a war against stalin, they would not have been able to just fly to "Moscow" or any other major city in the USSR. The Russian airforce was very formidable and all of their major cities were fairly well defended.

The enola gay flew over Hiroshima unescorted for the Japanese no longer had any pilots or any real fortifications to speak of.

You have made your choice, even though you said you couldn't.  Your choice would have been to draw out another hot war with stalin like Patton wanted which would have cost perhaps millions of lives.


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## there4eyeM (May 29, 2016)

There was a drawn out war with Russia anyway. The surprise was that the U.S. and the S.U. didn't burn down the world over small, ephemeral economic differences. Somehow, the odious Russkies had the sense to see when the jig was up, after all their spies int he west had been exposed, and quietly went out of business. Thank 'God' for Gorby.


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## namvet (May 29, 2016)

that's my dad's Cruiser in the background







I used to live in his home town


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## WheelieAddict (May 29, 2016)

Ten of Japan's worst War Crimes

The Japanese ran a brutal, violent, savage, inhuman military. They raped, pillaged, and killed anyone in there way in the most inhuman ways and had zero respect for human life or "rules of war". Their soldiers killed themselves in kamakazi attacks via land and air to kill as many as possible for their cult beliefs, like modern day terrorists. 

Assholes like Unkotare bitch and moan how it was so brutal that American Japanese were moved to camps during the war because of the extreme threat of Japanese terrorism, and try to demean one of our greatest presidents that made a tough decision to do this under massive public pressure to do so. It wasn't right to do this in retrospect, but you must look at the violent terrorist regime the Japanese were at this time to put it in context. And this is during a time of all out war when it was a national emergency that Japan would invade the American west coast.

As far as the nuke bombings go as horrible a tragedy as they were they likely saved many American and Japanese lives. The batshit crazy suicidal terrorist Japanese regime would not have given up without this massive display of power. The alternative would have been mass bombings from the US 24 hrs a day that would have leveled the islands and killed far more Japanese, and a bloody invasion that would have killed many Americans and more Japanese still.

Of course dbags like Unkotare will never mention the unspeakable atrocities and war crimes that the Japanese inflicted on Americans throughout the war. Nowadays Americans and Japanese alike are at peace with each other, have forgiven each other, and don't blame their respective leaders for what happened during that time. Except Unkotare who holds a grudge against one of our greatest presidents, because he/she/it can't grow up and move on like everyone else has.


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## namvet (May 29, 2016)




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## namvet (May 29, 2016)




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## namvet (May 29, 2016)




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## Manonthestreet (May 29, 2016)

How many have even read a single publication discussing all sides of the issue? Modern Americans barely know their own name, much less the nuances of an event 70 some yrs ago.


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## Unkotare (May 29, 2016)

WheelieAddict said:


> ...
> 
> Assholes like Unkotare bitch and moan how it was so brutal that American Japanese were moved to camps during the war because of the extreme threat of Japanese terrorism, and try to demean one of our greatest presidents that made a tough decision to do this .. .....




There was no "threat of Japanese terrorism," so put that discredited old lie away. It was not a "tough" decision for the scumbag fdr. It was one he was eager to make. 

And if you want to cheer because we weren't as bad as Imperial Japan or that fdr's concentration camps weren't as bad as hitler's then you hold America to a much lower standard than any real American should.


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## Unkotare (May 29, 2016)

WheelieAddict said:


> As far as the nuke bombings go as horrible a tragedy as they were they likely saved many American and Japanese lives. The batshit crazy suicidal terrorist Japanese regime would not have given up without this massive display of power. The alternative would have been mass bombings from the US 24 hrs a day that would have leveled the islands and killed far more Japanese, and a bloody invasion that would have killed many Americans and more Japanese still.....




MILITARY VIEWS About Dropping the Atomic Bomb


"Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, Commander in Chief of the Pacific Fleet stated in a public address given at the Washington Monument on October 5, 1945:



The Japanese had, in fact, already sued for peace before the atomic age was announced to the world with the destruction of Hiroshima and before the Russian entry into the war. (See p. 329, Chapter 26) . . . [Nimitz also stated: "The atomic bomb played no decisive part, from a purely military standpoint, in the defeat of Japan. . . ."]"



"Admiral William F. Halsey, Jr., Commander U.S. Third Fleet, stated publicly in 1946:



The first atomic bomb was an unnecessary experiment. . . . It was a mistake to ever drop it. . . . [the scientists] had this toy and they wanted to try it out, so they dropped it. . . . It killed a lot of Japs, but the Japs had put out a lot of peace feelers through Russia long before. (See p. 331, Chapter 26)"

"On September 20, 1945 the famous "hawk" who commanded the Twenty-First Bomber Command, Major General Curtis E. LeMay (as reported in _The New York Herald Tribune_) publicly:

said flatly at one press conference that the atomic bomb "had nothing to do with the end of the war." He said the war would have been over in two weeks without the use of the atomic bomb or the Russian entry into the war. (See p. 336, Chapter 27)"



"On the 40th Anniversary of the bombing former President Richard M. Nixon reported that:

[General Douglas] MacArthur once spoke to me very eloquently about it, pacing the floor of his apartment in the Waldorf. He thought it a tragedy that the Bomb was ever exploded. MacArthur believed that the same restrictions ought to apply to atomic weapons as to conventional weapons, that the military objective should always be limited damage to noncombatants. . . . MacArthur, you see, was a soldier. He believed in using force only against military targets, and that is why the nuclear thing turned him off. . . . (See p. 352, Chapter 28)



The day after Hiroshima was bombed MacArthur's pilot, Weldon E. Rhoades, noted in his diary:


General MacArthur definitely is appalled and depressed by this Frankenstein monster [the bomb]. I had a long talk with him today, necessitated by the impending trip to Okinawa. . . . (See p. 350, Chapter 28)"


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## Unkotare (May 29, 2016)

Ignored Japanese Peace Bids Plague U. S., West, with What Might Have Been (August 14, 1965)


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## Unkotare (May 29, 2016)

WheelieAddict said:


> ....
> 
> Of course dbags like Unkotare will never mention the unspeakable atrocities and war crimes that the Japanese inflicted on Americans throughout the war.......




Those atrocities are part of the historical record and are not in contention.


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## WheelieAddict (May 29, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> WheelieAddict said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...


Japanese blew themselves up and suicided their planes to kill just like modern terrorists. Americans never did this because their great president would never even think of it. Yet Japan's terrorist regime endorsed it and forced young men to kill themselves for the Emperor. Disgusting. That is why Americans were afraid and Japanese Americans ended up in camps. The threat of terror from the unspeakable acts of the Japanese military was a horror.


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## Unkotare (May 29, 2016)

World War II internment: U.S. top lawyer admits misconduct in Japanese American internment cases


FDR Solicitor General Lied to Supreme Court about Japanese Internment


Ringle Report on Japanese Internment


Pearl Harbour memo shows US warned of Japanese attack


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## Unkotare (May 29, 2016)

WheelieAddict said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > WheelieAddict said:
> ...




Read this if you want to be more informed about the subject:

*Kamikaze Diaries: Reflections of Japanese Student Soldiers*
Jun 1, 2006
by Emiko Ohnuki-Tierney


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## WheelieAddict (May 29, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> World War II internment: U.S. top lawyer admits misconduct in Japanese American internment cases
> 
> 
> FDR Solicitor General Lied to Supreme Court about Japanese Internment
> ...


Please quit while you are behind. American misconduct PALES in comparison to Japanese atrocities. The Japanese were almost Nazi like during this time of militarization. Our great president Franklin D. Roosevelt took precautions against the savagery.

You need to let it go. We are friends now. Lets put it in the past. But don't blame a great president that did what he had to do to stop the savagery.


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## Unkotare (May 29, 2016)

WheelieAddict said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > World War II internment: U.S. top lawyer admits misconduct in Japanese American internment cases
> ...



By throwing innocent, loyal AMERICAN CITIZENS into his concentration camps? 


If you want to cheer because we weren't as bad as Imperial Japan or that fdr's concentration camps weren't as bad as hitler's then you hold America to a much lower standard than any real American should.


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## Unkotare (May 29, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> World War II internment: U.S. top lawyer admits misconduct in Japanese American internment cases
> 
> 
> FDR Solicitor General Lied to Supreme Court about Japanese Internment
> ...



The scumbag fdr was informed that there was no such "threat" to which you so desperately want to refer. 

"That, in short, the entire "Japanese Problem" has been magnified out of its true proportion, largely because of the physical characteristics of the people; that it is no more serious that the problems of the German, Italian, and Communistic portions of the United States population, and, finally that it should be handled on the basis of the individual, regardless of citizenship, and not on a racial basis."


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## Unkotare (May 29, 2016)

WheelieAddict said:


> .... But don't blame a great president that did what he had to do to stop the savagery......




The scumbag fdr's concentration camps and blatant violation of the Constitution did absolutely nothing to advance the war effort. It was not something he "had to do" and he knew it.


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## WheelieAddict (May 29, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> WheelieAddict said:
> 
> 
> > .... But don't blame a great president that did what he had to do to stop the savagery......
> ...


You need to watch the video I posted bud. FDR did not have "concentration camps". They were detainment camps, and yes they were wrong however they were treated humanely. No experiments, no shooting squads, no ovens. you know who did that, and to American soldiers too...the Japanese! The Japanese_* annihilated millions. The US never did that, in fact we rescued the Chinese from Japan's Nazi like holocaust.*_


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## Unkotare (May 29, 2016)

The scumbag fdr called them concentration camps because that's what they were.


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## Unkotare (May 29, 2016)

The prisoners shot for getting too close to the barbed wire fences weren't treated too humanly.


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## Theowl32 (May 29, 2016)

Did the Japanese ever acknowledge their atrocities let alone apologize for them, or are they only claiming to be victims of the America they attacked?

Let me know if they have ever acknowledged them. Then let know if they apologized for them.

Let me know if you want me to go into details of those atrocities unkotare.

Until then take a hike with your claims of being victims. Just think. If your country did not ravage the Asia Pacific and did not deliberately attack the US, both of those cities may be in existence today.

Let me know If you want the details.


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## Unkotare (May 29, 2016)

Theowl32 said:


> Did the Japanese ever acknowledge their atrocities let alone apologize for them, or are they only claiming to be victims of the America they attacked?
> 
> Let me know if they have ever acknowledged them. Then let know if they apologized for them.
> 
> .......






Yes and yes. You should really inform yourself a little so you don't have to keep asking questions that have been answered.


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## Unkotare (May 29, 2016)

Theowl32 said:


> Did the Japanese ever acknowledge their atrocities let alone apologize for them, or are they only claiming to be victims of the America they attacked?
> 
> Let me know if they have ever acknowledged them. Then let know if they apologized for them.
> 
> ...





???

My country is the United States of America, and both those cities ARE in existence today. 

You can't possibly be this ignorant.


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## Unkotare (May 29, 2016)

That is one owl who will never get to the tootsie roll center of a tootsie pop. ^^^^


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## Theowl32 (May 29, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> Theowl32 said:
> 
> 
> > Did the Japanese ever acknowledge their atrocities let alone apologize for them, or are they only claiming to be victims of the America they attacked?
> ...


When I say in existence, you know damn well what I mean.

Have you acknowledged the atrocities of the JAPS?

I will bet if they could it all over again, they would think twice before launching a sneak attack on pearl harbor don't you think?

Funny, how they considered themselves to be such men of "honor" and they were nothing but trained monkeys.

Funny.

Keep telling me how those cities exist as if you you did not get the point.

Yeah, you are "American."


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## Unkotare (May 29, 2016)

Theowl32 said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Theowl32 said:
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I know what the words mean. Do you?


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## Theowl32 (May 29, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> Theowl32 said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
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Whatever, "American."


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## Unkotare (May 29, 2016)

Theowl32 said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Theowl32 said:
> ...





Theowl32 said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Theowl32 said:
> ...




No need for quotation marks.


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## Unkotare (May 29, 2016)

Theowl32 said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Theowl32 said:
> ...




I don't blame you for feeling humiliated that you thought the actual cities were gone. That was pretty stupid.


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## HenryBHough (May 29, 2016)

Though Truman was pretty good for a Democrat he still failed at efficiency. Done right there would today be but blackened craters where Hiroshima and Nagasaki USED to be.  Blackened - but still glowing in the dark.  But that a Democrat, any Democrat, could get something even partially was a wonder to behold!


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## whitehall (May 29, 2016)

The insane strategy of the time was to keep killing civilians until the maniacs surrendered. FDR even had a mockup of a German city erected as a target to see which incendiary devices would be the most effective in urban civilian environments. The propaganda of the time managed to convince Americans that the Japanese  were sub-human and the Bomb was just an extension of the insanity. Japan would probably have dropped it on the U.S. if they had the chance and so would the Nazis. but the winning side gets to write the history books and justify the atrocities.


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## Theowl32 (May 29, 2016)

whitehall said:


> The insane strategy of the time was to keep killing civilians until the maniacs surrendered. FDR even had a mockup of a German city erected as a target to see which incendiary devices would be the most effective in urban civilian environments. The propaganda of the time managed to convince Americans that the Japanese  were sub-human and the Bomb was just an extension of the insanity. Japan would probably have dropped it on the U.S. if they had the chance and so would the Nazis. but the winning side gets to write the history books and justify the atrocities.


Geee, if only they would not have been the ravaging barbarians they were, then perhaps they would not have reaped what they sowed.

You see the innocent lives they murdered during their reign and domination of Asia Pacific?

Ohhh, I am sure they thought of Americans as great people and equal to themselves.


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## beagle9 (May 29, 2016)

Theowl32 said:


> The real reason the US dropped the bombs on Japan IMO. After the Yalta conference, it is important to know that is when the official COLD WAR began with the USSR. It is important to know WHEN that was. February of 1945. Ok? About 6 months before the Hiroshima bomb.
> 
> The USSR (Stalin) was making a power move. Yalta became controversial after Soviet-American wartime cooperation degenerated into the cold war. Stalin broke his promise of free elections in Eastern Europe and installed governments dominated by the Soviet Union. Then American critics charged that Roosevelt, who died two months after the conference, had “sold out” to the Soviets at Yalta.
> 
> ...


. All I know is that Obama had no right to undermine the USA over the win,  and over it's strategies to win in the greatest wars ever fought in the 20th century. Obama is going to be one of the worst Presidents this nation has ever had.


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## PoliticalChic (May 29, 2016)

Theowl32 said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> > The insane strategy of the time was to keep killing civilians until the maniacs surrendered. FDR even had a mockup of a German city erected as a target to see which incendiary devices would be the most effective in urban civilian environments. The propaganda of the time managed to convince Americans that the Japanese  were sub-human and the Bomb was just an extension of the insanity. Japan would probably have dropped it on the U.S. if they had the chance and so would the Nazis. but the winning side gets to write the history books and justify the atrocities.
> ...




I read that the the Imperial Empire slaughtered almost 17 million from 1931 until the end of the war.


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## whitehall (May 29, 2016)

Theowl32 said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> > The insane strategy of the time was to keep killing civilians until the maniacs surrendered. FDR even had a mockup of a German city erected as a target to see which incendiary devices would be the most effective in urban civilian environments. The propaganda of the time managed to convince Americans that the Japanese  were sub-human and the Bomb was just an extension of the insanity. Japan would probably have dropped it on the U.S. if they had the chance and so would the Nazis. but the winning side gets to write the history books and justify the atrocities.
> ...


It's quite likely that the Allies murdered more innocent lives in ending the war than the barbarians did in promoting it. Does that make any sense? The elephant in the room is FDR's racist and incoherent foreign policy that ignited the worldwide 20th century conflagration.


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## Syriusly (May 29, 2016)

Theowl32 said:


> Syriusly said:
> 
> 
> > Theowl32 said:
> ...



Seriously- quoting a High School debate website?

OAK PARK & RIVER FOREST HIGH SCHOOL

Yes there are historians who have made the argument that Truman decided to drop the bomb because of the Soviet threat- but they haven't made your claims.

And there are others who have discounted that claim- in your own citation.

Noting Truman's own words:

The stance taken by Fussell was echoed by Truman. In his 1960 book, Truman Speaks, reflecting on his decision to utilize nuclear weapons, Truman reiterated the one guiding principle behind his decision—ending the war. Using the atom bomb, he said, was “no great decision…. It was merely another powerful weapon in the arsenal of righteousness…. It was a purely military decision to end the war.”


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## Syriusly (May 29, 2016)

CrusaderFrank said:


> Theowl32 said:
> 
> 
> > The real reason the US dropped the bombs on Japan IMO. After the Yalta conference, it is important to know that is when the official COLD WAR began with the USSR. It is important to know WHEN that was. February of 1945. Ok? About 6 months before the Hiroshima bomb.
> ...



Ah the Right Wing Nut Jobs will never forgive FDR for leading the United States to victory in World War 2.


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## Syriusly (May 29, 2016)

whitehall said:


> Theowl32 said:
> 
> 
> > whitehall said:
> ...



The elephant in the room is that America haters like you will never forgive FDR to leading the United States to victory in World War 2. 

FDR and Truman's policies were proven correct- Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan were defeated, and the Soviet Union collapsed under its own weight within a few decades without having to go to war with them.

Whitehall will never forgive FDR or Truman for not having American troops die fighting the Soviets.


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## HenryBHough (May 29, 2016)

Truman understood that to fight a war without intending to win the war is insanity.  Pity he was the last sane Democrat.


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## Syriusly (May 29, 2016)

there4eyeM said:


> Why not drop it on Imperial Army positions instead of civilian concentrations? That would have demonstrated the situation to everyone while at least remaining somewhat justifiable.



There were military centers in both cities. 

Hiroshima was a city of considerable military importance. It contained the 2nd Army Headquarters, which commanded the defense of all of southern Japan. The city was a communications center, a storage point, and an assembly area for troops. To quote a Japanese report, "Probably more than a thousand times since the beginning of the war did the Hiroshima citizens see off with cries of 'Banzai' the troops leaving from the harbor."

Nagasaki was not the primary target for its bomb- it became the target after Kokura had too much cloud cover to accurately confirm where the bomb was dropped.


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## Syriusly (May 29, 2016)

HenryBHough said:


> Truman understood that to fight a war without intending to win the war is insanity.  Pity he was the last sane Democrat.



Conservatives have never quite forgiving either FDR or Truman for leading the United States to victory in World War 2- how dare Democrats show them up like that!


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## Syriusly (May 29, 2016)

beagle9 said:


> Theowl32 said:
> 
> 
> > The real reason the US dropped the bombs on Japan IMO. After the Yalta conference, it is important to know that is when the official COLD WAR began with the USSR. It is important to know WHEN that was. February of 1945. Ok? About 6 months before the Hiroshima bomb.
> ...



Clearly that is all you know- because you clearly don't know what President Obama did in Hiroshima.

Stop getting all of your 'facts' from posts on the internet on right wing nut job websites.


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## regent (May 29, 2016)

Syriusly said:


> HenryBHough said:
> 
> 
> > Truman understood that to fight a war without intending to win the war is insanity.  Pity he was the last sane Democrat.
> ...


It was a bad period for Republicans, first Hoover and the depression, then the New Deal, then WWII and our overwhelming victory. Check the Republican response: we could have done it better, now that we know what happened.


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## beagle9 (May 29, 2016)

whitehall said:


> Theowl32 said:
> 
> 
> > whitehall said:
> ...


. The blood is on the foriegn governments hands that had dragged this nation into war, and not upon our hands who did what we had to do in order to end those wars. I can think of some serious labels that many would place upon you right now, otherwise if you continue to try and blame this nation for it's involvement in world war two.  Treasonous American traitor is one for starters in which you might be thought of by patriotic Americans, and there's no telling what else that your fellow Americans would think of you for your stance on the world war in which you have taken.


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## beagle9 (May 29, 2016)

Syriusly said:


> Theowl32 said:
> 
> 
> > Syriusly said:
> ...


. The use of those weapons ended world war conflicts for the next 71 years... Now we've had many conflicts, but nothing compared to world war one or two. The sad thing is these days, is that due to the slack handling of the responsibility that goes along with keeping the world safe from nuclear war, is that Russia, the United States and other nuclear nations are now becoming highly suspicious of one another again.  Partly I think that the reasons for this situation is all due to a multitude of reasons, and I think a major one is weakness, and a weak character that has been evolving in this nation now, and is one that is drawing a huge dis-respect by our enemies whether it be foriegn and domestic be it here or out in the world now.  That's my take or view on things, but I may be wrong, yet it's the way that I think because of all that I've been observing over time now.


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## Unkotare (May 29, 2016)

Theowl32 said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> > The insane strategy of the time was to keep killing civilians until the maniacs surrendered. FDR even had a mockup of a German city erected as a target to see which incendiary devices would be the most effective in urban civilian environments. The propaganda of the time managed to convince Americans that the Japanese  were sub-human and the Bomb was just an extension of the insanity. Japan would probably have dropped it on the U.S. if they had the chance and so would the Nazis. but the winning side gets to write the history books and justify the atrocities.
> ...




So you're saying the atomic bomb was used for revenge rather than military necessity? Those hundreds of thousands of civilians were annihilated as an act of revenge?


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## CrusaderFrank (May 29, 2016)

Syriusly said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> > Theowl32 said:
> ...



What victory? A Victory that left Eastern Europe in the hands of history's biggest mass murderer, "Uncle" Joe Stalin


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## Syriusly (May 29, 2016)

CrusaderFrank said:


> Syriusly said:
> 
> 
> > CrusaderFrank said:
> ...



Yep- like I said- Right Wing Nut Jobs will never forgive FDR or Truman for the United States victory in World War 2.

Or for the United States emerging as the most powerful nation in the world. Or for the United States emerging with the highest standard of living in the world.

Just pisses them off.


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## Theowl32 (May 30, 2016)

Syriusly said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> > Syriusly said:
> ...


You really do come across like an ignorant blow hard.

Of course you are going to leave out the fact that Germany was allowed to build up a war machine despite the loud cries of Churchill. As Germany violated all resolutions of the Treaty of Versailles,  Joe Kennedy who was appointed ambassador to England was certainly an architect of the great appeasement. After all America was doing business with Germany.  For instance Hugo Boss was one of the more successful garments for American merchants. Oh, Hugo Boss also happened to be a German company that exclusively dressed the SS and Hitler himself.


Ahhhh, but that does not count. Only an ignorant hack would blame "Hoover" for the crash.

What we do know is your soviet paradise could not last 100 years. LOL!

Also, take a look at how free market capitalism contributed far more to the recovery from the depression than any "social program" FDR implemented.

Want me to list the ways the free market contributed to the recovery?  How many companies were started in the 30s?

Let me know if you want me to educate you on how our free market saved us and not some socialist policy that you socialist propaganda pushers love to push on the gullible and ignorant.


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## beagle9 (May 30, 2016)

Syriusly said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> > Syriusly said:
> ...


 If it pisses them off, then why are the libs doing everything in the power to destroy what FDR had accomplished back then ?  Their literally biting off the hands that have fed them over these years.


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## regent (May 30, 2016)

Theowl32 said:


> Syriusly said:
> 
> 
> > CrusaderFrank said:
> ...


What is free market capitalism and when did the USA have it?


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## Theowl32 (May 30, 2016)

regent said:


> Theowl32 said:
> 
> 
> > Syriusly said:
> ...


Holy shit


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## regent (May 30, 2016)

Theowl32 said:


> regent said:
> 
> 
> > Theowl32 said:
> ...


If you don't know the answer why do you use the terms?


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## Syriusly (May 31, 2016)

beagle9 said:


> Syriusly said:
> 
> 
> > CrusaderFrank said:
> ...



Hmmm lets see- are liberals trying to:
a) End Social Security- no the only ones calling for an end to Social Security are conservatives
b) End the GI Bill- no- no liberal is calling for the end of the modern GI bill.
c) End of Band Depositors insurance- no- no liberal is calling for the end of bank depositors insurance
d) End the United States being the most powerful country in the world- nope- again not happening.
e) Are liberals calling for the end of our strong relationship with Japan and Germany- which was the end result of Truman and FDR's policies- again no. 

Meanwhile- as I point out- Conservatives are just pissed off because all of that happened under Democrat Presidents and Democrat Congresses.

Which is why they keep on trying to pile crap on Truman and Roosevelt.


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## Picaro (Jun 2, 2016)

> They had a substantial army. That is not really the point though. I think the US could beat them, just based on the significant logistical advantages. However, it would have been an endeavor that Truman would NOT have been able to sell.



I agree, I base it on hindsight entirely; it would have been the best option. I understand why they decided not to go against the Soviets at the time. I think both FDR and Truman underestimated both Stalin and Truman, and if they had known what the aftermath was going to be like they likely would have gone on with a war, at least a limited one.



> The simple fact is Stalin was encroaching on the far east. It was very valuable and Japan dominated the entire region. They were formidable and extremely ruthless. Even more ruthless than the nazis.



The Japanese still had a lot of troops on the mainland, yes. The outcome wasn't at all certain at the time whether all of the military units would abide by the surrender or follow the Emperor's proclamations. They were used to telling the Emperor what to do, not the other way around. 



> Anyway, the strange coincidence that the DAY BEFORE the US dropped "fat man" on Nagasaki, the USSR had declared WAR ON JAPAN. That was on August 8th and August 9th the US dropped second bomb.
> 
> Effectively ending the war and clearly stopping Stalin's encroachment. That is until they got a bomb of their own. Thanks Rosenbergs.
> 
> So, the bombs were as much about stopping the USSR or at the very least letting them know what will happen if they are pushed to a HOT war.



I agree, but that doesn't make it the *only* reason they were dropped. There are often several good reasons that converge that influence decisions.


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## Picaro (Jun 2, 2016)

Syriusly said:


> Picaro said:
> 
> 
> > Re option 2 the Soviet Union wasn't that hard to beat, as it was us who kept them in the war at all; while a substantial amount of western aid was still in their hands, and their machine tools were up to date, it wouldn't have been enough to stop a U.S. effort to drive them out of the eastern European countries and back to their own borders.
> ...



Drivel.


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## Picaro (Jun 2, 2016)

there4eyeM said:


> What a lack of imagination.
> The Soviets would not have been looking for an Enola Gay and would not have intercepted it. They, nor anyone else, would have known what hit them. The Soviet system was notoriously top-down. Take out an officer and the entire unit stopped until politically correct replacements were found. A few key generals assassinated concurrently, and Bob's your uncle.
> Make it look like some kind of Nazi vengeance weapon, or a Soviet accident. Or show there was Soviet provocation, with 'proof' they were about to invade France. By the time anyone had the slightest idea about the 'truth' (whatever that was or is), it would all be a 'fait accompli'.
> Look at the Gulf of Tonkin, the Mexican-American War, the Iraq invasion. People still believe the excuses. Heck, some still think Pearl Harbor was a surprise!
> No Iron Curtain. No Cold War. Perfect and permanent U.S. hegemony. Pax Americana for generations.



It would certainly have saved around a hundred million lives; Mao wouldn't have been nearly as  effective a butcher and murderer without Stalin's aid, not to mention all the famines and horrors in Soviet puppet states like Egypt, Cambodia, Viet Nam, Zaire, ad nauseam.


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## Syriusly (Jun 2, 2016)

Picaro said:


> Syriusly said:
> 
> 
> > Picaro said:
> ...


LOL.....in other words you are totally ignorant of the facts, and are unable to refute anything I said.


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## Theowl32 (Jun 2, 2016)

Syriusly said:


> beagle9 said:
> 
> 
> > Syriusly said:
> ...



Social security is a failed program and it did NOTHING to get the country out of the depression. You ignoring the fact that FDR allowed the German war machine to build up and him following the advice of Joseph Kennedy is not lost on me either. 

Here are some companies that started during the great depression and the fact the free market was still the main function of our system. With out the free market, most if not all of these companies would not have been able to get off the ground let alone flourish. 

Want me to show you how many each of these companies employed during that time? 

In spite of the great depression which started in 1929 and lasted through 1940, many businesses were started during this period of our history. Many still exist and prosper to this day. Following is a partial list of those firms. If they can do it, others can succeed in today's economic climate: 

*1929*
General Foods
Gruman
Macy's
Standard Brands
Sony Music
Walt Disney Pic


*1930*
Duracell
Fisher - Price
Hostess Brands
Westin Hotels

*1931*
Allstate
Bridgestone
*
Existing Businesses Started During the Great Depression*
That is just name a few. Go ahead and look at the list. Give me the long list of companies that were started during the entire existence of the USSR. 

BTW, that is from 1917-1991. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Go ahead and give us the mass number of companies or even products that benefited humans. Get ready for a lot of stuff about rockets and space ships. 


*
*


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## Owsi68 (Jun 5, 2016)

I always thought it was about ending the war with Japan while sending a message to the USSR that basically said, "Don't fuck with America."

Japan
Statistics justified the use of an atom bomb over invasion with conventional weapons - more would die on both sides if we had invaded.vs nuked them.

USSR
They were posturing a lot and war with them was a possibility.  I thought the hidden message we were sending by dropping a 2nd bomb was to essentially prove to the USSR that we had more than one and we're not afraid to use them.

There was some doubt as to whether or not America really had the bomb, that the bomb worked, that we had more than one bomb, and that we had the will to drop the bomb.

The attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki answered all of these questions.


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## Unkotare (Jun 5, 2016)

Owsi68 said:


> I always thought it was about ending the war with Japan while sending a message to the USSR that basically said, "Don't fuck with America."
> 
> Japan
> Statistics justified the use of an atom bomb over invasion with conventional weapons - more would die on both sides if we had invaded.vs nuked them.
> ...




Try to keep up. All of these have been addressed already.


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## Owsi68 (Jun 5, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> Owsi68 said:
> 
> 
> > I always thought it was about ending the war with Japan while sending a message to the USSR that basically said, "Don't fuck with America."
> ...


Admittedly didn't bother to read other posts. I'll jump out and shower off.


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## Theowl32 (Jun 6, 2016)

Owsi68 said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Owsi68 said:
> ...


The guy is obviously very sensitive about the subject for obvious reasons. Your post was just fine.


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## beagle9 (Jun 6, 2016)

Owsi68 said:


> I always thought it was about ending the war with Japan while sending a message to the USSR that basically said, "Don't fuck with America."
> 
> Japan
> Statistics justified the use of an atom bomb over invasion with conventional weapons - more would die on both sides if we had invaded.vs nuked them.
> ...


. The main thing is that it got Japan aboard the Arizona to surrender, and that says it all.


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## regent (Jun 6, 2016)

Imagine the field day Republicans would have today if Truman had not used the bombs and we had gone ahead and carried out our Olympia and Coronet invasions with their casualties and loss of life. Then Republicans discovering Truman had the bomb but had decided not to use it.


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## Owsi68 (Jun 6, 2016)

beagle9 said:


> Owsi68 said:
> 
> 
> > I always thought it was about ending the war with Japan while sending a message to the USSR that basically said, "Don't fuck with America."
> ...


The deck of the USS Missouri was where the instrument of surrender was signed.  The Arizona was and still is underwater.


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## Owsi68 (Jun 6, 2016)

there4eyeM said:


> Why not drop it on Imperial Army positions instead of civilian concentrations? That would have demonstrated the situation to everyone while at least remaining somewhat unjustifiable.


All possible targets were chosen primarily on their industrial, transportation and military value. 
Atomic Bomb: Decision -- Target Committee, May 10-11, 1945
Scroll down to table of contents (in blue) and select D: Status of Targets. 

I read through this and it seems Hiroshima and Nagasaki were legitimate war-related targets.  I'm just happy Kyoto didn't get hit.
The man who saved Kyoto from the atomic bomb - BBC News
I think that decision and the reasons behind it were just.


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## regent (Jun 6, 2016)

Much industry had moved to a cottage setting as our bombing continued. The real problem is that many Americans think of the Japanese like the Germans and Italians and when they see they have no chance they surrender. Many Japanese, did not think that way but would rather die than surrender. They thought of soldiers that surrendered as no longer soldiers. It was one reason they treated pow's badly, and one reason they committed suicide rather than surrender.


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## Unkotare (Jun 6, 2016)

Owsi68 said:


> there4eyeM said:
> 
> 
> > Why not drop it on Imperial Army positions instead of civilian concentrations? That would have demonstrated the situation to everyone while at least remaining somewhat unjustifiable.
> ...







Which reasons?


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## Owsi68 (Jun 6, 2016)

Theowl32 said:


> Owsi68 said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...





Unkotare said:


> Owsi68 said:
> 
> 
> > there4eyeM said:
> ...


Read the article.

After you whined about me not keeping up I went back today and read every post and every link and learned nothing new.

I learned some people just cannot have an intelligent and objective discussion without being belligerent; that racism and claims of racism are tiring; and that a lot of us can cite "facts" but the truth is we don't and maybe won't ever know what truly occurred in history let alone what might have been if we had acted differently.

I knew about the stuff you talked about regarding Japan wanted to surrender, I knew about the theories that Japan was beat already.  And I don't doubt the claims of racism being a decisive factor in a lot of what some people do, even world leaders.  The OP brought up stuff I wasn't aware of and found interesting.  But in the end a forum is about expressing opinions and my opinion after taking everything in is the same.- nuking Japan was justified and using that to preempt a war with the Soviets sounds reasonable and rational.

I appreciate perspective and information provided by others but when it comes in the form of hate, anger.and aggression it's just tiring.  I like debating, I don't like bickering.


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## Unkotare (Jun 6, 2016)

Owsi68 said:


> Theowl32 said:
> 
> 
> > Owsi68 said:
> ...










So, which reasons?


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## Owsi68 (Jun 6, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> Owsi68 said:
> 
> 
> > Theowl32 said:
> ...


You tell me


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## Unkotare (Jun 6, 2016)

Owsi68 said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Owsi68 said:
> ...




Your own words. You didn't know what you meant?


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## whitehall (Jun 7, 2016)

Syriusly said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> > Theowl32 said:
> ...


The sad remnant of a rational politician that democrats lied to the American public about and ran for a 4th term led the United States into the mess we had to deal with in Korea and the Cold War when FDR became infatuated with the Stalinist regime.


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## Syriusly (Jun 7, 2016)

whitehall said:


> Syriusly said:
> 
> 
> > CrusaderFrank said:
> ...


Ah the Right Wing Nut Jobs will never forgive FDR for leading the United States to victory in World War 2.[


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## Unkotare (Jun 7, 2016)

Syriusly said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> > Syriusly said:
> ...





^^^^^^ More idiotic lefty bullshit. ^^^^


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## Syriusly (Jun 7, 2016)

Unkotare said:


> Syriusly said:
> 
> 
> > whitehall said:
> ...



Just pointing it out like I do every time the Right Wing want to re-write history.

The Right Wing Nut Jobs will never forgive FDR for leading the United States to victory in World War 2. 

Or for social security, unemployment benefits, bank depositors insurance or the GI Bill.


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## Unkotare (Jun 8, 2016)

Syriusly said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Syriusly said:
> ...






"Re-write" how?


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## Unkotare (Jul 16, 2018)

Unkotare said:


> World War II internment: U.S. top lawyer admits misconduct in Japanese American internment cases
> 
> 
> FDR Solicitor General Lied to Supreme Court about Japanese Internment
> ...


.


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## Unkotare (Jul 16, 2018)

Unkotare said:


> Ignored Japanese Peace Bids Plague U. S., West, with What Might Have Been (August 14, 1965)


.


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## rightwinger (Jul 16, 2018)

Theowl32 said:


> The real reason the US dropped the bombs on Japan IMO. After the Yalta conference, it is important to know that is when the official COLD WAR began with the USSR. It is important to know WHEN that was. February of 1945. Ok? About 6 months before the Hiroshima bomb.
> 
> The USSR (Stalin) was making a power move. Yalta became controversial after Soviet-American wartime cooperation degenerated into the cold war. Stalin broke his promise of free elections in Eastern Europe and installed governments dominated by the Soviet Union. Then American critics charged that Roosevelt, who died two months after the conference, had “sold out” to the Soviets at Yalta.
> 
> ...


Do exactly what Truman did


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## Unkotare (Jul 16, 2018)

Unkotare said:


> MILITARY VIEWS About Dropping the Atomic Bomb


.


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