# Living with a Chevrolet Volt



## martinjlm

When we took delivery of my wife's 2012 Chevrolet Volt back in *March*, I figured we'd be putting gas in it every 6 weeks or so.

Now, here we are *8-1/2 months and 8,930 miles later * and I'm refueling it for the first time.  Spent $24.50 for 6.6 gallons of premium (tank is 9.3 gallons, so there was still about 2.7 gallons left)







When I did my first calculations to see whether it made more sense to lease the Volt or go with our second or third choice vehicles (2012 Chevrolet Equinox or 2013 Chevrolet Malibu) I factored in the idea that the first 35 miles would be electrically driven, then I added in gas driven miles.  What I did not factor in is that since most of my wife's trips are less than 20 miles, she would be returning home and plugging back in, so by the time she needed to make another trip, she would be back at or near a full charge.

As a result, she often went weeks without burning any gas.  So our total energy cost for the car are $344.50 for 8+ months.  That's $320 in electricity cost (we have a flat $40/mo deal with DTE Energy) + $24.50 in gas.  That amounts to 3.86 cents per mile driven.


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## Truthmatters

very cool


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## percysunshine

How did you calculate the electric bill apportioned to the car and not the house? I am going to call BS on the $320 over 8 1/2 months. Nobodies electricity is that cheap.


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## Mad Scientist

2013 MSRP on a Volt is just shy of $40,000 but it costs GM 60-70,000 to build, Thank you Gov't subsidy!. Contrast that with my Wife's Toyota Yaris which was $14,000 and gets an average of 38-40 MPG (44 on one stretch).

How many *years* would it take to make up $26,000 in gas savings to justify the initial expense?


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## percysunshine

Mad Scientist said:


> 2013 MSRP on a Volt is just shy of $40,000 but it costs GM 60-70,000 to build, Thank you Gov't subsidy!. Contrast that with my Wife's Toyota Yaris which was $14,000 and gets an average of 38-40 MPG (44 on one stretch).
> 
> How many *years* would it take to make up $26,000 in gas savings to justify the initial expense?



It will catch fire first...


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## PoliticalChic

martinjlm said:


> When we took delivery of my wife's 2012 Chevrolet Volt back in *March*, I figured we'd be putting gas in it every 6 weeks or so.
> 
> Now, here we are *8-1/2 months and 8,930 miles later * and I'm refueling it for the first time.  Spent $24.50 for 6.6 gallons of premium (tank is 9.3 gallons, so there was still about 2.7 gallons left)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When I did my first calculations to see whether it made more sense to lease the Volt or go with our second or third choice vehicles (2012 Chevrolet Equinox or 2013 Chevrolet Malibu) I factored in the idea that the first 35 miles would be electrically driven, then I added in gas driven miles.  What I did not factor in is that since most of my wife's trips are less than 20 miles, she would be returning home and plugging back in, so by the time she needed to make another trip, she would be back at or near a full charge.
> 
> As a result, she often went weeks without burning any gas.  So our total energy cost for the car are $344.50 for 8+ months.  That's $320 in electricity cost (we have a flat $40/mo deal with DTE Energy) + $24.50 in gas.  That amounts to 3.86 cents per mile driven.



1.	Based on energy use, the Volt has been averaging close to 2 miles per kilowatt-hour, which, according to the EPA, is the equivalent of 65 mpg. But thats for the first 25 miles or so, on battery alone.

2.	GM says recharge times are about 4 hours with a 240-volt supply, and 10 to 12 hours with 120 volts. Our Volt has been taking almost 13 kWh in about 5 hours every time we charge. Volt buyers should purchase a 220-volt (Level 2) charger. 

a.	At the national average rate of 11 cents per kWh, the Volt costs about 5.7 cents per mile in electric mode and 10 cents a mile after that- if gas is $3 per gallon. 

b.	A Toyota Prius costs 6.8 cents  per mile, and a gas powered Honda Fit costs about 10 cents per mile (but the price is less than half of that of the Volt).

3.	In the Northeast, electricity cost is a lot higher. For example:
 Sep. 22, 2010: ($0.27 per kWh)
Aug. 23, 2010: ($0.24 per kWh)
Jul. 23, 2010: ($0.29 per kWh)
Jun. 23, 2010: ($0.28 per kWh)
May 24, 2010: ($0.41 per kWh)
Apr. 23, 2010: ($0.87 per kWh) 
W303 » New York City Electricity  Con Edison Kwh Charge History


4.So, the Volt works as an electric car with a gas backup.but it is not much of a money saver in many places. For now, the Volt is an expensive way to be green.


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## martinjlm

percysunshine said:


> How did you calculate the electric bill apportioned to the car and not the house? I am going to call BS on the $320 over 8 1/2 months. Nobodies electricity is that cheap.



I'll see your BS and raise you the 2nd separate meter installed by DTE Energy to monitor the 240V ChargePoint station that is installed in my garage.

Follow this link ---> DTE Energy - Plug-In Electric Vehicle Rates


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## martinjlm

Mad Scientist said:


> 2013 MSRP on a Volt is just shy of $40,000 but it costs GM 60-70,000 to build, Thank you Gov't subsidy!. Contrast that with my Wife's Toyota Yaris which was $14,000 and gets an average of 38-40 MPG (44 on one stretch).
> 
> How many *years* would it take to make up $26,000 in gas savings to justify the initial expense?



So you were NOT paying attention over the past several months when every reputable news outlet debunked the accounting assumptions the author of the report used?  There are SEVERAL threads on USBM that tracked that.  Should be easy for you to find.


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## martinjlm

PoliticalChic said:


> ....
> 
> 1.	Based on energy use, the Volt has been averaging close to 2 miles per kilowatt-hour, which, according to the EPA, is the equivalent of 65 mpg. But thats for the first 25 miles or so, on battery alone.
> 
> 2.	GM says recharge times are about 4 hours with a 240-volt supply, and 10 to 12 hours with 120 volts. Our Volt has been taking almost 13 kWh in about 5 hours every time we charge. Volt buyers should purchase a 220-volt (Level 2) charger.
> 
> a.	At the national average rate of 11 cents per kWh, the Volt costs about 5.7 cents per mile in electric mode and 10 cents a mile after that- if gas is $3 per gallon.
> 
> b.	A Toyota Prius costs 6.8 cents  per mile, and a gas powered Honda Fit costs about 10 cents per mile (but the price is less than half of that of the Volt).
> 
> 3.	In the Northeast, electricity cost is a lot higher. For example:
> Sep. 22, 2010: ($0.27 per kWh)
> Aug. 23, 2010: ($0.24 per kWh)
> Jul. 23, 2010: ($0.29 per kWh)
> Jun. 23, 2010: ($0.28 per kWh)
> May 24, 2010: ($0.41 per kWh)
> Apr. 23, 2010: ($0.87 per kWh)
> W303 » New York City Electricity  Con Edison Kwh Charge History
> 
> 
> *4.So, the Volt works as an electric car with a gas backup.but it is not much of a money saver in many places. For now, the Volt is an expensive way to be green*.



That is true if the vehicle is PURCHASED.  We are LEASING the vehicle for 36 months.  With our down-payment, my original estimate of electricity costs (higher than actual), and my original estimate of fuel costs (way higher than actual), the Volt was still a financially better move than leasing an Equinox or a Malibu at that time.

Since then, the lease rates for Volt have dropped another $100/month, so it would REALLY be a better deal for us.


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## rightwinger

martinjlm said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> ....
> 
> 1.	Based on energy use, the Volt has been averaging close to 2 miles per kilowatt-hour, which, according to the EPA, is the equivalent of 65 mpg. But thats for the first 25 miles or so, on battery alone.
> 
> 2.	GM says recharge times are about 4 hours with a 240-volt supply, and 10 to 12 hours with 120 volts. Our Volt has been taking almost 13 kWh in about 5 hours every time we charge. Volt buyers should purchase a 220-volt (Level 2) charger.
> 
> a.	At the national average rate of 11 cents per kWh, the Volt costs about 5.7 cents per mile in electric mode and 10 cents a mile after that- if gas is $3 per gallon.
> 
> b.	A Toyota Prius costs 6.8 cents  per mile, and a gas powered Honda Fit costs about 10 cents per mile (but the price is less than half of that of the Volt).
> 
> 3.	In the Northeast, electricity cost is a lot higher. For example:
> Sep. 22, 2010: ($0.27 per kWh)
> Aug. 23, 2010: ($0.24 per kWh)
> Jul. 23, 2010: ($0.29 per kWh)
> Jun. 23, 2010: ($0.28 per kWh)
> May 24, 2010: ($0.41 per kWh)
> Apr. 23, 2010: ($0.87 per kWh)
> W303 » New York City Electricity  Con Edison Kwh Charge History
> 
> 
> *4.So, the Volt works as an electric car with a gas backup.but it is not much of a money saver in many places. For now, the Volt is an expensive way to be green*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is true if the vehicle is PURCHASED.  We are LEASING the vehicle for 36 months.  With our down-payment, my original estimate of electricity costs (higher than actual), and my original estimate of fuel costs (way higher than actual), the Volt was still a financially better move than leasing an Equinox or a Malibu at that time.
> 
> Since then, the lease rates for Volt have dropped another $100/month, so it would REALLY be a better deal for us.
Click to expand...


Pay no mind. She is Conservative and the only posts they accept is.....The Volt must FAIL


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## Mad Scientist

martinjlm said:


> Mad Scientist said:
> 
> 
> 
> 2013 MSRP on a Volt is just shy of $40,000 but it costs GM 60-70,000 to build, Thank you Gov't subsidy!. Contrast that with my Wife's Toyota Yaris which was $14,000 and gets an average of 38-40 MPG (44 on one stretch).
> 
> How many *years* would it take to make up $26,000 in gas savings to justify the initial expense?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you were NOT paying attention over the past several months when every reputable news outlet debunked the accounting assumptions the author of the report used?  There are SEVERAL threads on USBM that tracked that.  Should be easy for you to find.
Click to expand...

That hit too close to home?

You have an expensive, Taxpayer subsidized Car that won't "save" you any money for years.

The only smart thing you did was to Lease it, that way you can walk away from it when you realize what a turd it is.


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## Mad Scientist

rightwinger said:


> Pay no mind. She is Conservative and the only posts they accept is.....The Volt must FAIL


As opposed to the Liberal mindset which is: The Volt MUST succeed even if we have to lie about it!


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## Sunni Man

Can you run the air conditioner during the summer months while the Volt is on battery power?


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## martinjlm

Mad Scientist said:


> martinjlm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mad Scientist said:
> 
> 
> 
> 2013 MSRP on a Volt is just shy of $40,000 but it costs GM 60-70,000 to build, Thank you Gov't subsidy!. Contrast that with my Wife's Toyota Yaris which was $14,000 and gets an average of 38-40 MPG (44 on one stretch).
> 
> How many *years* would it take to make up $26,000 in gas savings to justify the initial expense?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you were NOT paying attention over the past several months when every reputable news outlet debunked the accounting assumptions the author of the report used?  There are SEVERAL threads on USBM that tracked that.  Should be easy for you to find.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That hit too close to home?
> 
> You have an expensive, Taxpayer subsidized Car that won't "save" you any money for years.
> 
> The only smart thing you did was to Lease it, that way you can walk away from it when you realize what a turd it is.
Click to expand...


Do I really seem upset to you?  What is this "too close to home" crap?  You quoted a statement that has already been exposed as BS and I simply pointed it out.  If I were upset, I would go find the expansive volumes of quotes exposing the statement as crap and post it on top of your post.  But it really isn't that important to me.


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## Si modo

My car is sooooo much prettier.  

Pretty matters.


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## martinjlm

Sunni Man said:


> Can you run the air conditioner during the summer months while the Volt is on battery power?



Yes you can.  The Volt is ALWAYS on electric power.  The wheels are always turned by an electric motor.  The only purpose the gas engine serves is to power the electric motor if/when you run out of battery power.

The AC never draws off of the gas engine as is the case in conventional cars.  Running the AC full blast will reduce your battery range, but otherwise, nothing is different.


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## martinjlm

rightwinger said:


> martinjlm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> ....
> 
> 1.	Based on energy use, the Volt has been averaging close to 2 miles per kilowatt-hour, which, according to the EPA, is the equivalent of 65 mpg. But thats for the first 25 miles or so, on battery alone.
> 
> 2.	GM says recharge times are about 4 hours with a 240-volt supply, and 10 to 12 hours with 120 volts. Our Volt has been taking almost 13 kWh in about 5 hours every time we charge. Volt buyers should purchase a 220-volt (Level 2) charger.
> 
> a.	At the national average rate of 11 cents per kWh, the Volt costs about 5.7 cents per mile in electric mode and 10 cents a mile after that- if gas is $3 per gallon.
> 
> b.	A Toyota Prius costs 6.8 cents  per mile, and a gas powered Honda Fit costs about 10 cents per mile (but the price is less than half of that of the Volt).
> 
> 3.	In the Northeast, electricity cost is a lot higher. For example:
> Sep. 22, 2010: ($0.27 per kWh)
> Aug. 23, 2010: ($0.24 per kWh)
> Jul. 23, 2010: ($0.29 per kWh)
> Jun. 23, 2010: ($0.28 per kWh)
> May 24, 2010: ($0.41 per kWh)
> Apr. 23, 2010: ($0.87 per kWh)
> W303 » New York City Electricity  Con Edison Kwh Charge History
> 
> 
> *4.So, the Volt works as an electric car with a gas backup.but it is not much of a money saver in many places. For now, the Volt is an expensive way to be green*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is true if the vehicle is PURCHASED.  We are LEASING the vehicle for 36 months.  With our down-payment, my original estimate of electricity costs (higher than actual), and my original estimate of fuel costs (way higher than actual), the Volt was still a financially better move than leasing an Equinox or a Malibu at that time.
> 
> Since then, the lease rates for Volt have dropped another $100/month, so it would REALLY be a better deal for us.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Pay no mind. She is Conservative and the only posts they accept is.....The Volt must FAIL
Click to expand...


To be honest, I didn't see anything negative in what PoliticalChic stated.  She outlined several facts.  I simply added the leasing fact.  She noted several potential alternatives to the Volt that people can / do consider.  Thing is, I'm only going to compare it to vehicles I would actually consider buying or leasing.  The Prius and Fit are simply two vehicles I'd never consider owning, so for me to compare Volt to them makes no sense.  For others, it may make a lot of sense.


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## PoliticalChic

rightwinger said:


> martinjlm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> ....
> 
> 1.	Based on energy use, the Volt has been averaging close to 2 miles per kilowatt-hour, which, according to the EPA, is the equivalent of 65 mpg. But thats for the first 25 miles or so, on battery alone.
> 
> 2.	GM says recharge times are about 4 hours with a 240-volt supply, and 10 to 12 hours with 120 volts. Our Volt has been taking almost 13 kWh in about 5 hours every time we charge. Volt buyers should purchase a 220-volt (Level 2) charger.
> 
> a.	At the national average rate of 11 cents per kWh, the Volt costs about 5.7 cents per mile in electric mode and 10 cents a mile after that- if gas is $3 per gallon.
> 
> b.	A Toyota Prius costs 6.8 cents  per mile, and a gas powered Honda Fit costs about 10 cents per mile (but the price is less than half of that of the Volt).
> 
> 3.	In the Northeast, electricity cost is a lot higher. For example:
> Sep. 22, 2010: ($0.27 per kWh)
> Aug. 23, 2010: ($0.24 per kWh)
> Jul. 23, 2010: ($0.29 per kWh)
> Jun. 23, 2010: ($0.28 per kWh)
> May 24, 2010: ($0.41 per kWh)
> Apr. 23, 2010: ($0.87 per kWh)
> W303 » New York City Electricity  Con Edison Kwh Charge History
> 
> 
> *4.So, the Volt works as an electric car with a gas backup.but it is not much of a money saver in many places. For now, the Volt is an expensive way to be green*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is true if the vehicle is PURCHASED.  We are LEASING the vehicle for 36 months.  With our down-payment, my original estimate of electricity costs (higher than actual), and my original estimate of fuel costs (way higher than actual), the Volt was still a financially better move than leasing an Equinox or a Malibu at that time.
> 
> Since then, the lease rates for Volt have dropped another $100/month, so it would REALLY be a better deal for us.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Pay no mind. She is Conservative and the only posts they accept is.....The Volt must FAIL
Click to expand...




Wingy is the kind of dim-wit who'd call 911 to get the phone number for 'information.'


Notice that he was unable to find any error in my post, so immediately leapt to some sort of smear.


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## edthecynic

Mad Scientist said:


> 2013 MSRP on a Volt is just shy of $40,000 but* it costs GM 60-70,000 to build,* Thank you Gov't subsidy!. Contrast that with my Wife's Toyota Yaris which was $14,000 and gets an average of 38-40 MPG (44 on one stretch).
> 
> How many *years* would it take to make up $26,000 in gas savings to justify the initial expense?


Wow, the build price is dropping like a stone, the lie used to be $250,000! 

The CON$ervoFascist Brotherhood have been making up phony "cost to build" numbers for the Volt for quite some time, but there are still some morons stupid enough to believe them no matter how many times they are debunked.

If You Want To Attack The Volt, Try To Get Your Math Right

Here's the story. Four days ago, we dissected in some detail Matt Drudge's uninformed war against the Volt. He promptly posted two more anti-Volt headlines the next day.
 One of them linked to an article on Michigan Capital Confidential citing a study by James Hohman, assistant director of fiscal policy at the Mackinac Center for Public Policy.
*A quarter of a meeeeellion dollars !!*
 The report claims that every Chevrolet Volt is the beneficiary of a  quarter of a million dollars of state and Federal subsidies. Yes, the  car with a 2012 retail price of $39,995 carries $250,000 of Your Tax Dollars in its load bay.
 Hohman added up all the known state and Federal incentives to obtain a  "total value offered to the Volt," not only for General Motors but also  its suppliers.
 A total of "18 government deals that included loans, rebates, grants  and tax credits" are included. The total loan amounts are apparently  listed in full, even though the loans are intended to be be paid back  with interest.
 Hohman then divided the sum by the number of Volts sold as of  November 30. The result prompted him to call the Volt "the most  government-supported car since the Trabant," the East German  plastic-bodied two-cylinder minicar.
*The denominator problem*
 As Wahlman notes, the egregious flaw in this calculation is "the  denominator problem"--to what base of cars do you apply the analysis?







2011 Chevrolet Volt Production Line



 Dividing the number of Volts sold to date (6,468 as of November 30) into the total incentives that apply to all Volts past, present, and future is either dopey or intellectually dishonest.
 You could as easily say that on December 15 last year, the day the first Volt was delivered  to a retail buyer, it carried a stunning, incredible, unconscionable  $1.5 BILLION in subsidies. You'd be doing the same thing: dividing by  the number of Volts sold, or 1.


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## martinjlm

Si modo said:


> My car is sooooo much prettier.
> 
> Pretty matters.



Haven't seen your car, but I agree.....pretty matters.  My wife thinks the Volt is pretty.....I think my wife is pretty......happy wife, happy life.


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## Jarlaxle

If Liz mentioned wanting a Volt, I would suspect alien abduction and replacement with a clone!


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## martinjlm

edthecynic said:


> Mad Scientist said:
> 
> 
> 
> 2013 MSRP on a Volt is just shy of $40,000 but* it costs GM 60-70,000 to build,* Thank you Gov't subsidy!. Contrast that with my Wife's Toyota Yaris which was $14,000 and gets an average of 38-40 MPG (44 on one stretch).
> 
> How many *years* would it take to make up $26,000 in gas savings to justify the initial expense?
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, the build price is dropping like a stone, the lie used to be $250,000!
> 
> The CON$ervoFascist Brotherhood have been making up phony "cost to build" numbers for the Volt for quite some time, but there are still some morons stupid enough to believe them no matter how many times they are debunked.
> 
> If You Want To Attack The Volt, Try To Get Your Math Right
> 
> Here's the story. Four days ago, we dissected in some detail Matt Drudge's uninformed war against the Volt. He promptly posted two more anti-Volt headlines the next day.
> One of them linked to an article on Michigan Capital Confidential citing a study by James Hohman, assistant director of fiscal policy at the Mackinac Center for Public Policy.
> *A quarter of a meeeeellion dollars !!*
> The report claims that every Chevrolet Volt is the beneficiary of a  quarter of a million dollars of state and Federal subsidies. Yes, the  car with a 2012 retail price of $39,995 carries $250,000 of Your Tax Dollars in its load bay.
> Hohman added up all the known state and Federal incentives to obtain a  "total value offered to the Volt," not only for General Motors but also  its suppliers.
> A total of "18 government deals that included loans, rebates, grants  and tax credits" are included. The total loan amounts are apparently  listed in full, even though the loans are intended to be be paid back  with interest.
> Hohman then divided the sum by the number of Volts sold as of  November 30. The result prompted him to call the Volt "the most  government-supported car since the Trabant," the East German  plastic-bodied two-cylinder minicar.
> *The denominator problem*
> As Wahlman notes, the egregious flaw in this calculation is "the  denominator problem"--to what base of cars do you apply the analysis?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2011 Chevrolet Volt Production Line
> 
> 
> 
> Dividing the number of Volts sold to date (6,468 as of November 30) into the total incentives that apply to all Volts past, present, and future is either dopey or intellectually dishonest.
> You could as easily say that on December 15 last year, the day the first Volt was delivered  to a retail buyer, it carried a stunning, incredible, unconscionable  $1.5 BILLION in subsidies. You'd be doing the same thing: dividing by  the number of Volts sold, or 1.
Click to expand...


The funny thing is, because of what I do for a living, I know a lot of the Volt people on a personal basis.  I have a pretty good idea of what the actual costs are and the "estimates" from those that are politicizing the car are waaaaay off.....Waaaaay high.  That's really all I can say without compromising confidences.  But look at it this way....If it is as expensive as folks like Mad Scientist are inclined to believe, why would GM's Senior VP of Product Development publicly state that GM is going to focus on EREV (Extended Range Electric Vehicles) instead of hybrids?  Think the the company actually intends to lose money?  And why are other companies suddenly coming to market with similar vehicles?  Imitation being the sincerest form of flattery.....Let's try to keep the discussion on what it is....a car.....and not what it is not.....a political football.

GM Plans 500,000 Vehicles with Electrification by 2017


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## martinjlm

Si modo said:


> My car is sooooo much prettier.
> 
> Pretty matters.



One more thing about pretty....

Here's the 2014 Cadillac ELR






Same powertrain as the Volt.....now THAT is purty....


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## Si modo

martinjlm said:


> Si modo said:
> 
> 
> 
> My car is sooooo much prettier.
> 
> Pretty matters.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One more thing about pretty....
> 
> Here's the 2014 Cadillac ELR
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Same powertrain as the Volt.....now THAT is purty....
Click to expand...


In my world of taste, behemoth and pretty are not the same thing.


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## PoliticalChic

martinjlm said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> ....
> 
> 1.	Based on energy use, the Volt has been averaging close to 2 miles per kilowatt-hour, which, according to the EPA, is the equivalent of 65 mpg. But thats for the first 25 miles or so, on battery alone.
> 
> 2.	GM says recharge times are about 4 hours with a 240-volt supply, and 10 to 12 hours with 120 volts. Our Volt has been taking almost 13 kWh in about 5 hours every time we charge. Volt buyers should purchase a 220-volt (Level 2) charger.
> 
> a.	At the national average rate of 11 cents per kWh, the Volt costs about 5.7 cents per mile in electric mode and 10 cents a mile after that- if gas is $3 per gallon.
> 
> b.	A Toyota Prius costs 6.8 cents  per mile, and a gas powered Honda Fit costs about 10 cents per mile (but the price is less than half of that of the Volt).
> 
> 3.	In the Northeast, electricity cost is a lot higher. For example:
> Sep. 22, 2010: ($0.27 per kWh)
> Aug. 23, 2010: ($0.24 per kWh)
> Jul. 23, 2010: ($0.29 per kWh)
> Jun. 23, 2010: ($0.28 per kWh)
> May 24, 2010: ($0.41 per kWh)
> Apr. 23, 2010: ($0.87 per kWh)
> W303 » New York City Electricity  Con Edison Kwh Charge History
> 
> 
> *4.So, the Volt works as an electric car with a gas backup.but it is not much of a money saver in many places. For now, the Volt is an expensive way to be green*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is true if the vehicle is PURCHASED.  We are LEASING the vehicle for 36 months.  With our down-payment, my original estimate of electricity costs (higher than actual), and my original estimate of fuel costs (way higher than actual), the Volt was still a financially better move than leasing an Equinox or a Malibu at that time.
> 
> Since then, the lease rates for Volt have dropped another $100/month, so it would REALLY be a better deal for us.
Click to expand...


In cost to travel in electric mode...."the Volt has been averaging close to 2 miles per kilowatt-hour" (from the same Consumer's Reports review)...

...and "The mph is not meaningful without knowing a trips length, because calculating fuel economy depends on the ratio of electric to gasoline use. 
a.	*Weve been getting between 23 and 28 mpg, due to the winters freeze.* The cars electric range is very susceptible to cold weather since the heater runs on electricity.
b.	Weve also found that an extended highway cruise shortens the electric range. "


....in NYC, at 27 cents kwh, that would be a cost of $3.38 a mile @ 25mpg

....and at the 87 cents kwh, that would be a cost of $10.89 a mile @ 25mpg.


At their guess of gasoline @$3 per gallon....it's cheaper to run the gas mode.


But....if you are in a warm climate....could be the advantage. But, some note a 30% drop in mileage with AC. (Extreme Heat Affecting Chevy Volt Electric Range | AutoGuide.com News)
And, they find the Nissan Leaf cheaper.


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## tjvh

We can all rest assured that those Coal powered electricity generating plants will keep the Volt rolling. Hooray for making a difference.


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## Sallow

percysunshine said:


> Mad Scientist said:
> 
> 
> 
> 2013 MSRP on a Volt is just shy of $40,000 but it costs GM 60-70,000 to build, Thank you Gov't subsidy!. Contrast that with my Wife's Toyota Yaris which was $14,000 and gets an average of 38-40 MPG (44 on one stretch).
> 
> How many *years* would it take to make up $26,000 in gas savings to justify the initial expense?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It will catch fire first...
Click to expand...


No it won't.


----------



## martinjlm

Sallow said:


> percysunshine said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mad Scientist said:
> 
> 
> 
> 2013 MSRP on a Volt is just shy of $40,000 but it costs GM 60-70,000 to build, Thank you Gov't subsidy!. Contrast that with my Wife's Toyota Yaris which was $14,000 and gets an average of 38-40 MPG (44 on one stretch).
> 
> How many *years* would it take to make up $26,000 in gas savings to justify the initial expense?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It will catch fire first...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No it won't.
Click to expand...

You actually wasted your time replying to a lame attempt at humor?  You have more patience than I do.


----------



## there4eyeM

How much longer do you figure an electric motor will last than a reciprocating piston engine (an antique design from the 1880s)?


----------



## Sunni Man

martinjlm said:


> ...Let's try to keep the discussion on what it is....a car.....and not what it is not.....a political football.


To deny the forcing of the electric car on the American public isn't based on politics is idiotic.


----------



## there4eyeM

To deny that petroleum based energy is political is tragic.


----------



## Truthseeker420

Mad Scientist said:


> 2013 MSRP on a Volt is just shy of $40,000 but it costs GM 60-70,000 to build, Thank you Gov't subsidy!. Contrast that with my Wife's Toyota Yaris which was $14,000 and gets an average of 38-40 MPG (44 on one stretch).
> 
> How many *years* would it take to make up $26,000 in gas savings to justify the initial expense?



With tax credits you can get the Volt for around $30,000.


----------



## Sunni Man

there4eyeM said:


> To deny that petroleum based energy is political is_ tragic_.


"tragic"??

Get a grip poindexter..........


----------



## Jroc

rightwinger said:


> martinjlm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> ....
> 
> 1.	Based on energy use, the Volt has been averaging close to 2 miles per kilowatt-hour, which, according to the EPA, is the equivalent of 65 mpg. But thats for the first 25 miles or so, on battery alone.
> 
> 2.	GM says recharge times are about 4 hours with a 240-volt supply, and 10 to 12 hours with 120 volts. Our Volt has been taking almost 13 kWh in about 5 hours every time we charge. Volt buyers should purchase a 220-volt (Level 2) charger.
> 
> a.	At the national average rate of 11 cents per kWh, the Volt costs about 5.7 cents per mile in electric mode and 10 cents a mile after that- if gas is $3 per gallon.
> 
> b.	A Toyota Prius costs 6.8 cents  per mile, and a gas powered Honda Fit costs about 10 cents per mile (but the price is less than half of that of the Volt).
> 
> 3.	In the Northeast, electricity cost is a lot higher. For example:
> Sep. 22, 2010: ($0.27 per kWh)
> Aug. 23, 2010: ($0.24 per kWh)
> Jul. 23, 2010: ($0.29 per kWh)
> Jun. 23, 2010: ($0.28 per kWh)
> May 24, 2010: ($0.41 per kWh)
> Apr. 23, 2010: ($0.87 per kWh)
> W303 » New York City Electricity  Con Edison Kwh Charge History
> 
> 
> *4.So, the Volt works as an electric car with a gas backup.but it is not much of a money saver in many places. For now, the Volt is an expensive way to be green*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is true if the vehicle is PURCHASED.  We are LEASING the vehicle for 36 months.  With our down-payment, my original estimate of electricity costs (higher than actual), and my original estimate of fuel costs (way higher than actual), the Volt was still a financially better move than leasing an Equinox or a Malibu at that time.
> 
> Since then, the lease rates for Volt have dropped another $100/month, so it would REALLY be a better deal for us.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Pay no mind. She is Conservative and the only posts they accept is.....The Volt must FAIL
Click to expand...




We don't want to Volt to fail at all. We just want sales to be market driven not government subsidized. Having said that with the Obama administration is shutting down Coal fired power plants electricity is going way up as Obama promised. Many new EPA regulations are coming

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlTxGHn4sH4]Obama: My Plan Makes Electricity Rates Skyrocket - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## KissMy

martinjlm said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can you run the air conditioner during the summer months while the Volt is on battery power?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes you can.  The Volt is ALWAYS on electric power.  The wheels are always turned by an electric motor.  The only purpose the gas engine serves is to power the electric motor if/when you run out of battery power.
> 
> The AC never draws off of the gas engine as is the case in conventional cars.  Running the AC full blast will reduce your battery range, but otherwise, nothing is different.
Click to expand...


I don't believe that is true. The wheels are driven by both gas & electric power. You can run on all electric, gas drive & charge or gas & electric together for max horse power. It uses a planetary, ring & sun gear setup. It also may be possible that the electric motor spins the engine to start it.

It would be nice if they made it like you said that the engine only charged the battery. That way they could make it modular so it & the gas tank could be removed for long periods of local only commuting to save a lot of weight. Or it could be sold without the engine & gas tank. Or have a second battery in place of the engine & gas tank.


----------



## martinjlm

Sunni Man said:


> martinjlm said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...Let's try to keep the discussion on what it is....a car.....and not what it is not.....a political football.
> 
> 
> 
> To deny the *forcing of the electric car on the American public* isn't based on politics is idiotic.
Click to expand...


Who is forcing on the Chinese public?  The German public?  The French public? The Japanese public?  Could it possibly be that American automakers realize that in order to be able to compete in all the major markets in the world they have to be capable of grasping the advancing electrification of the automobile?  It's not an issue of politics.....it's an issue of achieving and maintaining a competitive edge.

And at last check, I don't recall seeing any legislation forcing anyone to buy an electric vehicle.  Don't like?  Don't buy!


----------



## Foxfyre

Yet the five figure subsidies provided courtesy of the tax payer is a factor in those costs.
Yet the less-than-green processes used to build that Volt also have to be a consideration.
And as almost anywhere I go in our part of the world will exceed 25 miles in our area, I would need to use at least some gasoline.

The best information I have found is that the cost of electricity to run the Volt in most areas of the country is about 7 cents per mile.  And with the price of gasoline hovering around $3.50 or so, the cost of running a 32 mpg vehicle on  gasoline is about 11 cents per mile.  At 4 cents per mile difference, it would take a very long time to make up the price tag of the Volt, most especially if you consider the subsidy that we all pay for them.

I get the at or close to the 32 mpg with my 17-year-old Subara Impreza Outback that cost me $11,000 in 1995 and,  because it rarely needs replacement parts and I have not utilized intense carbon energy processes required to replace it, I am guessing that my little car has been far more 'green' than any Chevy Volt on the road.   And it costs a hell of a lot less.  In fact considering the low cost of insurance, maintenance, and fuel for my little car and that it has been paid for now for 15 years, you just can't get any transportation cheaper than that.


----------



## Dot Com

martinjlm said:


> Si modo said:
> 
> 
> 
> My car is sooooo much prettier.
> 
> Pretty matters.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One more thing about pretty....
> 
> Here's the 2014 Cadillac ELR
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Same powertrain as the Volt.....now THAT is purty....
Click to expand...

I like those too/


martinjlm said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> martinjlm said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...Let's try to keep the discussion on what it is....a car.....and not what it is not.....a political football.
> 
> 
> 
> To deny the *forcing of the electric car on the American public* isn't based on politics is idiotic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who is forcing on the Chinese public?  The German public?  The French public? The Japanese public?  Could it possibly be that American automakers realize that in order to be able to compete in all the major markets in the world they have to be capable of grasping the advancing electrification of the automobile?  It's not an issue of politics.....it's an issue of achieving and maintaining a competitive edge.
> 
> And at last check, I don't recall seeing any legislation forcing anyone to buy an electric vehicle.  Don't like?  Don't buy!
Click to expand...




there4eyeM said:


> How much longer do you figure an electric motor will last than a reciprocating piston engine (an antique design from the 1880s)?



true. Multi-national co's have to look to global markets as martinjlm mentioned above.


----------



## Papageorgio

martinjlm said:


> When we took delivery of my wife's 2012 Chevrolet Volt back in *March*, I figured we'd be putting gas in it every 6 weeks or so.
> 
> Now, here we are *8-1/2 months and 8,930 miles later * and I'm refueling it for the first time.  Spent $24.50 for 6.6 gallons of premium (tank is 9.3 gallons, so there was still about 2.7 gallons left)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When I did my first calculations to see whether it made more sense to lease the Volt or go with our second or third choice vehicles (2012 Chevrolet Equinox or 2013 Chevrolet Malibu) I factored in the idea that the first 35 miles would be electrically driven, then I added in gas driven miles.  What I did not factor in is that since most of my wife's trips are less than 20 miles, she would be returning home and plugging back in, so by the time she needed to make another trip, she would be back at or near a full charge.
> 
> As a result, she often went weeks without burning any gas.  So our total energy cost for the car are $344.50 for 8+ months.  That's $320 in electricity cost (we have a flat $40/mo deal with DTE Energy) + $24.50 in gas.  That amounts to 3.86 cents per mile driven.



Glad it works for, it would not be practical for myself as I drive mountain passes and in snow often.


----------



## martinjlm

KissMy said:


> martinjlm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can you run the air conditioner during the summer months while the Volt is on battery power?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes you can.  The Volt is ALWAYS on electric power.  The wheels are always turned by an electric motor.  The only purpose the gas engine serves is to power the electric motor if/when you run out of battery power.
> 
> The AC never draws off of the gas engine as is the case in conventional cars.  Running the AC full blast will reduce your battery range, but otherwise, nothing is different.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *I don't believe that is true.* The wheels are driven by both gas & electric power. You can run on all electric, gas drive & charge or gas & electric together for max horse power. *It uses a planetary, ring & sun gear setup.* It also may be possible that the electric motor spins the engine to start it.
Click to expand...


It is absolutely true.  That was the center point of the Volt concept.  It does not have any aspect of a planetary step gear transmission in the vehicle (ironically, early in my careers was responsible for writing service procedures for planetary transmissions....even earlier for manufacturing sun gears).  What you are describing is how some traditional hybrids work, but not an EREV like the Volt.

From one of the early Chevrolet Press Releases when the car was launched in late 2010......

*Electric drive supplies power to the wheels*
A 111-kW (149-hp) electric drive unit powers the Volts wheels at all times. Positioned under the hood next to the engine, it packages a pair of electric motors and a multi-mode transaxle with continuously variable capability. Unlike a conventional powertrain, there are no step gears within the unit, and no direct mechanical linkage from the engine, through the drive unit to the wheels.


----------



## eots

martinjlm said:


> When we took delivery of my wife's 2012 Chevrolet Volt back in *March*, I figured we'd be putting gas in it every 6 weeks or so.
> 
> Now, here we are *8-1/2 months and 8,930 miles later * and I'm refueling it for the first time.  Spent $24.50 for 6.6 gallons of premium (tank is 9.3 gallons, so there was still about 2.7 gallons left)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When I did my first calculations to see whether it made more sense to lease the Volt or go with our second or third choice vehicles (2012 Chevrolet Equinox or 2013 Chevrolet Malibu) I factored in the idea that the first 35 miles would be electrically driven, then I added in gas driven miles.  What I did not factor in is that since most of my wife's trips are less than 20 miles, she would be returning home and plugging back in, so by the time she needed to make another trip, she would be back at or near a full charge.
> 
> As a result, she often went weeks without burning any gas.  So our total energy cost for the car are $344.50 for 8+ months.  That's $320 in electricity cost (we have a flat $40/mo deal with DTE Energy) + $24.50 in gas.  That amounts to 3.86 cents per mile driven.


*
It be cool to drop one of these bad boys in her*

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxyH2WUKwPw]1969 427 corvette motor - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Foxfyre

Well no offense to drivers of Chevy Volts because it certainly isn't THEIR fault, but I resent my tax dollars subsidiing a huge chunk of the cost of them.

I have no problem with research into electric cars and no problem with car manufacturers making and marketing them.  But I absolutely want them to be marketed and sold based on their actual cost, and not at the expense of the taxpayer.

Again considering that 7 cent cost per mile for electric operation versus 11 cents per mile cost for gasoline operation--this based on a car getting 32 mpg--it would be easy to conclude that there is a 50% or better savings in green energy.  Not so, at least in most cases, because unless the electricity is produced via nuclear plants or natural gas--and most isn't--it takes a lot of carbon based energy to make the electricity.

So please.  While electric power may indeed be the car of the future and certainly there is nothing wrong with it, let's don't kid ourselves that electric powered vehicles are somehow more economical or substantially more green than gasoline powered vehicles.


----------



## martinjlm

Foxfyre said:


> *Yet the five figure subsidies provided courtesy of the tax payer is a factor in those costs*.
> Yet the less-than-green processes used to build that Volt also have to be a consideration.
> And as almost anywhere I go in our part of the world will exceed 25 miles in our area, I would need to use at least some gasoline.
> 
> The best information I have found is that the cost of electricity to run the Volt in most areas of the country is about 7 cents per mile.  And with the price of gasoline hovering around $3.50 or so, the cost of running a 32 mpg vehicle on  gasoline is about 11 cents per mile.  At 4 cents per mile difference, it would take a very long time to make up the price tag of the Volt, most especially if you consider the subsidy that we all pay for them.
> 
> I get the at or close to the 32 mpg with my 17-year-old Subara Impreza Outback that cost me $11,000 in 1995 and,  because it rarely needs replacement parts and I have not utilized intense carbon energy processes required to replace it, I am guessing that my little car has been far more 'green' than any Chevy Volt on the road.   And it costs a hell of a lot less.  In fact considering the low cost of insurance, maintenance, and fuel for my little car and that it has been paid for now for 15 years, you just can't get any transportation cheaper than that.



Okay, so let's go back to the days when the Volt was just an idea.....

Federal Tax Credits for Sports Utility Vehicles with Gross Vehicle Weight capacity between 8,501 - 12,000 lbs (mass + passengers + towing capacity + hauling capacity). $3,000.  This qualified Hummer H1 and H2 as well as heavy duty GM Suburbans, Ford Expeditions and Excursions for a $3,000 tax break.  Vehicles over 12,000 pounds got an even bigger incentive, but those tended to actually be for commercial use only, as the original incentive plan intended. Finally ended in 2009.
2005-2010: Hybrid Vehicle Tax Break.  Federal Tax incentive for the purchase of a hybrid vehicle.  Often compounded by some states (Colorado, California, Minnesota, others) adding additional state tax rebates or incentives.  These incentives benefitted Toyota, Honda, and to a lesser degree Ford, until they expired in 2010.
Compressed Natural Gas Subsidy:  also expired in 2010.  Provided up to 50% of the purchase price of a compressed natural gas operated vehicle.  At one point there was also a program that provided either tax credit or refund (can't remember which) for the installation of a CNG refueling station at your house.

For giggles and grins, here's a partial list of vehicles that are / will be eligible for the same tax incentives that Volt is currently eligible for....Nissan Leaf, Tesla Model S, Fisker Karma, Toyota Prius Plug-In, Ford Focus EV, Ford C-Max Energi, Ford Fusion Energi, BMW i3, BMW i3 Rex (their version of the Volt), BMW i8, Mitsubishi iMiEV, I know there are more, but I think this makes the point.  

So when do the hate threads start on these vehicles?


----------



## percysunshine

A tax credit, any tax credit, is a promise to tax you in the future on something you buy today.

Nothing more, and nothing less.


----------



## Foxfyre

martinjlm said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Yet the five figure subsidies provided courtesy of the tax payer is a factor in those costs*.
> Yet the less-than-green processes used to build that Volt also have to be a consideration.
> And as almost anywhere I go in our part of the world will exceed 25 miles in our area, I would need to use at least some gasoline.
> 
> The best information I have found is that the cost of electricity to run the Volt in most areas of the country is about 7 cents per mile.  And with the price of gasoline hovering around $3.50 or so, the cost of running a 32 mpg vehicle on  gasoline is about 11 cents per mile.  At 4 cents per mile difference, it would take a very long time to make up the price tag of the Volt, most especially if you consider the subsidy that we all pay for them.
> 
> I get the at or close to the 32 mpg with my 17-year-old Subara Impreza Outback that cost me $11,000 in 1995 and,  because it rarely needs replacement parts and I have not utilized intense carbon energy processes required to replace it, I am guessing that my little car has been far more 'green' than any Chevy Volt on the road.   And it costs a hell of a lot less.  In fact considering the low cost of insurance, maintenance, and fuel for my little car and that it has been paid for now for 15 years, you just can't get any transportation cheaper than that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so let's go back to the days when the Volt was just an idea.....
> 
> Federal Tax Credits for Sports Utility Vehicles with Gross Vehicle Weight capacity between 8,501 - 12,000 lbs (mass + passengers + towing capacity + hauling capacity). $3,000.  This qualified Hummer H1 and H2 as well as heavy duty GM Suburbans, Ford Expeditions and Excursions for a $3,000 tax break.  Vehicles over 12,000 pounds got an even bigger incentive, but those tended to actually be for commercial use only, as the original incentive plan intended. Finally ended in 2009.
> 2005-2010: Hybrid Vehicle Tax Break.  Federal Tax incentive for the purchase of a hybrid vehicle.  Often compounded by some states (Colorado, California, Minnesota, others) adding additional state tax rebates or incentives.  These incentives benefitted Toyota, Honda, and to a lesser degree Ford, until they expired in 2010.
> Compressed Natural Gas Subsidy:  also expired in 2010.  Provided up to 50% of the purchase price of a compressed natural gas operated vehicle.  At one point there was also a program that provided either tax credit or refund (can't remember which) for the installation of a CNG refueling station at your house.
> 
> For giggles and grins, here's a partial list of vehicles that are / will be eligible for the same tax incentives that Volt is currently eligible for....Nissan Leaf, Tesla Model S, Fisker Karma, Toyota Prius Plug-In, Ford Focus EV, Ford C-Max Energi, Ford Fusion Energi, BMW i3, BMW i3 Rex (their version of the Volt), BMW i8, Mitsubishi iMiEV, I know there are more, but I think this makes the point.
> 
> So when do the hate threads start on these vehicles?
Click to expand...


I don't know whether your information is accurate or not.   But the subsidy of the Volt doesn't just include tax credits which are a far different animal than a subsidy that is money actually paid out of the treasury and given to the auto manufacturer.  True, if the Volt catches on, the cost of that subsidy spread over many vehicles brings the cost per vehicle down substantially, but so far that isn't happening.   At the time you bought your Volt, I believe the estimated direct cost to the taxpayer, depending on whose numbers you use, was anywhere from $50k to $250k.

It is estimated that the average income of the typical Volt buyer is around $175k.  So why do buyers in that price range need a subsidy from somebody like me who makes a pretty small fraction of that much?


----------



## Warrior102

I am an EMT volunteer
I wouldn't carve into one of those fuckers with a saw to pull a body out in an accident if you paid me.
 I have a chance of getting 400V up the ass to save a life for Obama? Fuck em.


----------



## Sunni Man

Plus the surviving accident victims in a rolled over Volt will most likely be covered in battery acid.

Being ate up alive by acid isn't a pleasant way to die.     

The eyes would be the first thing to be burned out.


----------



## Jarlaxle

there4eyeM said:


> How much longer do you figure an electric motor will last than a reciprocating piston engine (an antique design from the 1880s)?



Considering that many piston engines run perfectly fine while the cars they are in fall apart...irrelevant!


----------



## Jarlaxle

Warrior102 said:


> I am an EMT volunteer
> I wouldn't carve into one of those fuckers with a saw to pull a body out in an accident if you paid me.
> I have a chance of getting 400V up the ass to save a life for Obama? Fuck em.



Note: The Prius battery runs at higher voltage than my MIG welder.


----------



## martinjlm

Foxfyre said:


> martinjlm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Yet the five figure subsidies provided courtesy of the tax payer is a factor in those costs*.
> Yet the less-than-green processes used to build that Volt also have to be a consideration.
> And as almost anywhere I go in our part of the world will exceed 25 miles in our area, I would need to use at least some gasoline.
> 
> The best information I have found is that the cost of electricity to run the Volt in most areas of the country is about 7 cents per mile.  And with the price of gasoline hovering around $3.50 or so, the cost of running a 32 mpg vehicle on  gasoline is about 11 cents per mile.  At 4 cents per mile difference, it would take a very long time to make up the price tag of the Volt, most especially if you consider the subsidy that we all pay for them.
> 
> I get the at or close to the 32 mpg with my 17-year-old Subara Impreza Outback that cost me $11,000 in 1995 and,  because it rarely needs replacement parts and I have not utilized intense carbon energy processes required to replace it, I am guessing that my little car has been far more 'green' than any Chevy Volt on the road.   And it costs a hell of a lot less.  In fact considering the low cost of insurance, maintenance, and fuel for my little car and that it has been paid for now for 15 years, you just can't get any transportation cheaper than that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so let's go back to the days when the Volt was just an idea.....
> 
> Federal Tax Credits for Sports Utility Vehicles with Gross Vehicle Weight capacity between 8,501 - 12,000 lbs (mass + passengers + towing capacity + hauling capacity). $3,000.  This qualified Hummer H1 and H2 as well as heavy duty GM Suburbans, Ford Expeditions and Excursions for a $3,000 tax break.  Vehicles over 12,000 pounds got an even bigger incentive, but those tended to actually be for commercial use only, as the original incentive plan intended. Finally ended in 2009.
> 2005-2010: Hybrid Vehicle Tax Break.  Federal Tax incentive for the purchase of a hybrid vehicle.  Often compounded by some states (Colorado, California, Minnesota, others) adding additional state tax rebates or incentives.  These incentives benefitted Toyota, Honda, and to a lesser degree Ford, until they expired in 2010.
> Compressed Natural Gas Subsidy:  also expired in 2010.  Provided up to 50% of the purchase price of a compressed natural gas operated vehicle.  At one point there was also a program that provided either tax credit or refund (can't remember which) for the installation of a CNG refueling station at your house.
> 
> For giggles and grins, here's a partial list of vehicles that are / will be eligible for the same tax incentives that Volt is currently eligible for....Nissan Leaf, Tesla Model S, Fisker Karma, Toyota Prius Plug-In, Ford Focus EV, Ford C-Max Energi, Ford Fusion Energi, BMW i3, BMW i3 Rex (their version of the Volt), BMW i8, Mitsubishi iMiEV, I know there are more, but I think this makes the point.
> 
> So when do the hate threads start on these vehicles?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't know whether your information is accurate or not.   But the subsidy of the Volt doesn't just include tax credits which are a far different animal than a subsidy that is money actually paid out of the treasury and given to the auto manufacturer.  True, if the Volt catches on, the cost of that subsidy spread over many vehicles brings the cost per vehicle down substantially, but so far that isn't happening.   At the time you bought your Volt, I believe the estimated direct cost to the taxpayer, depending on whose numbers you use, was anywhere from $50k to $250k.
> 
> It is estimated that the average income of the typical Volt buyer is around $175k.  So why do buyers in that price range need a subsidy from somebody like me who makes a pretty small fraction of that much?
Click to expand...


With regards to whether or not my info is accurate or not, I could paste all kinds of government legal mumbo jumbo that defines the incentives but a) that would put you to sleep and b) my band is playing at a bar so I have limited time/ net access. As for treasury money.....that would apply to GM as a company, not just Volt as a vehicle.  So arguably, it would apply to every pickup track, Corvette, Cruze, and Buick Regal produced since the bankruptcy.


----------



## Foxfyre

martinjlm said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> martinjlm said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so let's go back to the days when the Volt was just an idea.....
> 
> Federal Tax Credits for Sports Utility Vehicles with Gross Vehicle Weight capacity between 8,501 - 12,000 lbs (mass + passengers + towing capacity + hauling capacity). $3,000.  This qualified Hummer H1 and H2 as well as heavy duty GM Suburbans, Ford Expeditions and Excursions for a $3,000 tax break.  Vehicles over 12,000 pounds got an even bigger incentive, but those tended to actually be for commercial use only, as the original incentive plan intended. Finally ended in 2009.
> 2005-2010: Hybrid Vehicle Tax Break.  Federal Tax incentive for the purchase of a hybrid vehicle.  Often compounded by some states (Colorado, California, Minnesota, others) adding additional state tax rebates or incentives.  These incentives benefitted Toyota, Honda, and to a lesser degree Ford, until they expired in 2010.
> Compressed Natural Gas Subsidy:  also expired in 2010.  Provided up to 50% of the purchase price of a compressed natural gas operated vehicle.  At one point there was also a program that provided either tax credit or refund (can't remember which) for the installation of a CNG refueling station at your house.
> 
> For giggles and grins, here's a partial list of vehicles that are / will be eligible for the same tax incentives that Volt is currently eligible for....Nissan Leaf, Tesla Model S, Fisker Karma, Toyota Prius Plug-In, Ford Focus EV, Ford C-Max Energi, Ford Fusion Energi, BMW i3, BMW i3 Rex (their version of the Volt), BMW i8, Mitsubishi iMiEV, I know there are more, but I think this makes the point.
> 
> So when do the hate threads start on these vehicles?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know whether your information is accurate or not.   But the subsidy of the Volt doesn't just include tax credits which are a far different animal than a subsidy that is money actually paid out of the treasury and given to the auto manufacturer.  True, if the Volt catches on, the cost of that subsidy spread over many vehicles brings the cost per vehicle down substantially, but so far that isn't happening.   At the time you bought your Volt, I believe the estimated direct cost to the taxpayer, depending on whose numbers you use, was anywhere from $50k to $250k.
> 
> It is estimated that the average income of the typical Volt buyer is around $175k.  So why do buyers in that price range need a subsidy from somebody like me who makes a pretty small fraction of that much?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> With regards to whether or not my info is accurate or not, I could paste all kinds of government legal limbo jumbo that defines the incentives but a) that would put you to sleep and b) my band is playing at a bar so I have limited time/ net access. As for treasury money.....that would apply to GM as a company, not just Volt as a vehicle.
Click to expand...


Well work before USMB always, and you're right that you have to plow through a jumble of legaleze to get any kind of accurate numbers--that would probably be beyond the skill  or abilityof either of us to research--but I believe the fact is that more than a billion in direct federal subsidies have gone specificially for the Volt--the actual federal outlay to GM far exceeds that--but still a billion is a huge amount for fewer than 15,000 Volts sold in 2012 thus far.

Insight: GM's Volt: The ugly math of low sales, high costs | Reuters


----------



## Synthaholic

Mad Scientist said:


> 2013 MSRP on a Volt is just shy of $40,000 but it costs GM 60-70,000 to build, Thank you Gov't subsidy!. Contrast that with my Wife's Toyota Yaris which was $14,000 and gets an average of 38-40 MPG (44 on one stretch).
> 
> How many *years* would it take to make up $26,000 in gas savings to justify the initial expense?


You are assuming all things being equal.

Why?


----------



## Synthaholic

PoliticalChic said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> martinjlm said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is true if the vehicle is PURCHASED.  We are LEASING the vehicle for 36 months.  With our down-payment, my original estimate of electricity costs (higher than actual), and my original estimate of fuel costs (way higher than actual), the Volt was still a financially better move than leasing an Equinox or a Malibu at that time.
> 
> Since then, the lease rates for Volt have dropped another $100/month, so it would REALLY be a better deal for us.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pay no mind. She is Conservative and the only posts they accept is.....The Volt must FAIL
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wingy is the kind of dim-wit who'd call 911 to get the phone number for 'information.'
> 
> 
> *Notice that he was unable to find any error in my post*, so immediately leapt to some sort of smear.
Click to expand...



There may not be any errors in your post but it's certainly not representative.  Not everyone lives in the NY area, using ConED.  I think the electricity rate in Tennessee is around 7 cents.  So now how much, smarty?


----------



## Synthaholic

Foxfyre said:


> Well no offense to drivers of Chevy Volts because it certainly isn't THEIR fault, *but I resent my tax dollars subsidiing a huge chunk of the cost of them.*
> 
> I have no problem with research into electric cars and no problem with car manufacturers making and marketing them.  But I absolutely want them to be marketed and sold based on their actual cost, and not at the expense of the taxpayer.
> 
> Again considering that 7 cent cost per mile for electric operation versus 11 cents per mile cost for gasoline operation--this based on a car getting 32 mpg--it would be easy to conclude that there is a 50% or better savings in green energy.  Not so, at least in most cases, because unless the electricity is produced via nuclear plants or natural gas--and most isn't--it takes a lot of carbon based energy to make the electricity.



Did you resent it when Bush used your tax dollars to set up the Office Of Faith-Based Initiatives also, sweetie?



> So please.  While electric power may indeed be the car of the future and certainly there is nothing wrong with it, let's don't kid ourselves that electric powered vehicles are somehow more economical or substantially more green than gasoline powered vehicles.




Now you're talking out your ass.


----------



## Politico

martinjlm said:


> As a result, she often went weeks without burning any gas.  So our total energy cost for the car are $344.50 for 8+ months.  That's $320 in electricity cost (we have a flat $40/mo deal with DTE Energy) + $24.50 in gas.  That amounts to 3.86 cents per mile driven.



My car gets 30 miles per gallon. At $3.30 per last fill up that's 11 cents per mile. I'll stick with what I have.


----------



## Synthaholic

Politico said:


> martinjlm said:
> 
> 
> 
> As a result, she often went weeks without burning any gas.  So our total energy cost for the car are $344.50 for 8+ months.  That's $320 in electricity cost (we have a flat $40/mo deal with DTE Energy) + $24.50 in gas.  That amounts to 3.86 cents per mile driven.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My car gets 30 miles per gallon. At $3.30 per last fill up that's 11 cents per mile. I'll stick with what I have.
Click to expand...

How much per mile at $4.00?  $4.50?  Or do you believe gas prices will always stay where they are despite all evidence to the contrary?


----------



## Politico

What are you rambling about Leftytoon? In order for my per mile to be $3.86 gas would have to be $115 a gallon. $4 would be a couple of cents. If you gotta quibble over that you can't afford a car.


----------



## martinjlm

Foxfyre said:


> martinjlm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know whether your information is accurate or not.   But the subsidy of the Volt doesn't just include tax credits which are a far different animal than a subsidy that is money actually paid out of the treasury and given to the auto manufacturer.  True, if the Volt catches on, the cost of that subsidy spread over many vehicles brings the cost per vehicle down substantially, but so far that isn't happening.   At the time you bought your Volt, I believe the estimated direct cost to the taxpayer, depending on whose numbers you use, was anywhere from $50k to $250k.
> 
> It is estimated that the average income of the typical Volt buyer is around $175k.  So why do buyers in that price range need a subsidy from somebody like me who makes a pretty small fraction of that much?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With regards to whether or not my info is accurate or not, I could paste all kinds of government legal limbo jumbo that defines the incentives but a) that would put you to sleep and b) my band is playing at a bar so I have limited time/ net access. As for treasury money.....that would apply to GM as a company, not just Volt as a vehicle.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well work before USMB always, and you're right that you have to plow through a jumble of legaleze to get any kind of accurate numbers--that would probably be beyond the skill  or abilityof either of us to research
Click to expand...

Not beyond my skillset.  It's part of my day job (last night was my stress-reliever bar band gig)



Foxfyre said:


> --but I believe the fact is that *more than a billion in direct federal subsidies have gone specificially for the Volt--the actual federal outlay to GM far exceeds that--but still a billion is a huge amount for fewer than 15,000 Volts sold in 2012 thus far*.



Very provable that this is ENTIRELY false.  None of the bailout money was targeted to any specific vehicle programs.  In fact, when Pres. Obama's Automotive Task Force first met with GM, one of their early bullet points was "stop working on Fuel Cells and Electric Vehicles.  It's costing too much".  Then they drove a Volt prototype and said "okay,, we get it.  Do what you think makes sense".  If you read Steve Rattner's book "Overhaul" for info on this topic you'll get the whole behind the scenes story.  Rattner was the head of the Automotive Task Force.  Bottom line....the incentives offered to Volt buyers / lessees is no different than those offered to other electric vehicle and plug-in hybrid vehicle buyers and lesses.  It just so happens that Nissan Leaf (which people are avoiding in droves) and Chevrolet Volt are the first vehicles to qualify for the incentives.  Trust me, there are many more coming. 





Foxfyre said:


> Insight: GM's Volt: The ugly math of low sales, high costs | Reuters



The Reuters story was debunked for faulty math and accounting almost before the ink dried.  Applying the full burden of R&D costs only to those vehicles already built and sold is ludicrous at best, incompetent at worst.  At the very least they could have spent a couple thousand bucks for an industry forecast of how many vehicles (Volts and others) would be built from technologies included in the R&D and spread the cost across all of them.  Again, that is one of the things I do in my everyday job as an automotive analyst.  

Thing is, I know the guy who wrote the original story (only in passing.  We would recognize each other at press events) and he really is better than that crap report he put out.  I'm occasionally tempted to ask him "what was that all about?", but I don't know him THAT well.


----------



## Foxfyre

Synthaholic said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well no offense to drivers of Chevy Volts because it certainly isn't THEIR fault, *but I resent my tax dollars subsidiing a huge chunk of the cost of them.*
> 
> I have no problem with research into electric cars and no problem with car manufacturers making and marketing them.  But I absolutely want them to be marketed and sold based on their actual cost, and not at the expense of the taxpayer.
> 
> Again considering that 7 cent cost per mile for electric operation versus 11 cents per mile cost for gasoline operation--this based on a car getting 32 mpg--it would be easy to conclude that there is a 50% or better savings in green energy.  Not so, at least in most cases, because unless the electricity is produced via nuclear plants or natural gas--and most isn't--it takes a lot of carbon based energy to make the electricity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did you resent it when Bush used your tax dollars to set up the Office Of Faith-Based Initiatives also, sweetie?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So please.  While electric power may indeed be the car of the future and certainly there is nothing wrong with it, let's don't kid ourselves that electric powered vehicles are somehow more economical or substantially more green than gasoline powered vehicles.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Now you're talking out your ass.
Click to expand...


What Bush or anybody else did or what I thought was a good thing or not in any previous or even this administration has absolutely nothing to do with subsidizing a Chevy Volt.  Perhaps we could skip the liberal tactic of bait and switch for just this one thread, please?

And you are welcome to dispute my opinion with your own facts and figures.  Otherwise I just assume you are typing out the most hateful and offensive comments you can think of to avoid admitting you don't know anything about the subject.


----------



## martinjlm

Meant to reply to the EPA comment earlier, but let the moment get away from me......



PoliticalChic said:


> 1.	Based on energy use, the Volt has been averaging close to 2 miles per kilowatt-hour, which, *according to the EPA, is the equivalent of 65 mpg.* But that&#8217;s for the first 25 miles or so, on battery alone.



According to these stickers, the EPA thinks the *electric MPG equivalent is 94* for the 2012 (my wife's car) *and 98 for the 2013*, not the *65 quoted by PoliticalChic.*  And the electric range is variable by temperature and driving habits.  I've been in my wife's car when it as reported as much as 45 miles and as little as 30 miles available at full charge.  I would expect 25 would be on a very cold day.  By the way, we're in Detroit.  Hardly a tropical climate.


----------



## uscitizen

Sunni Man said:


> Can you run the air conditioner during the summer months while the Volt is on battery power?



The Prius does run it's AC on battery power.
Ever hear of electric powered Air Conditioners?
How much gas does your home AC use?


----------



## martinjlm

there4eyeM said:


> How much longer do you figure an electric motor will last than a reciprocating piston engine (an antique design from the 1880s)?



Probably longer since there are fewer moving parts (less friction) and a LOT less heat.  But that's sort of immaterial since in almost all cases, the vehicle either becomes obsolete or the body and chassis non-functional long before the drivetrain.  Except in cases of poor maintenance.


----------



## martinjlm

Politico said:


> What are you rambling about Leftytoon? In order for my per mile to be $3.86 gas would have to be $115 a gallon. $4 would be a couple of cents. If you gotta quibble over that you can't afford a car.



Not sure who your post was responding to since you reference a non-existent screen name, but since you also reference my number, please note that I said *3.86 CENTS *per mile....as in *PENNIES, * not *$*.

If you were responding to someone else......then nevermind.


----------



## Politico

Well you wrote it out incorrectly so I saw dollars. Still like I said earlier. A few cent difference is not enough difference to change what I'm doing.


----------



## martinjlm

Politico said:


> *Well you wrote it out incorrectly so I saw dollars.* Still like I said earlier. A few cent difference is not enough difference to change what I'm doing.



I did?  Really?



			
				martinjlm said:
			
		

> As a result, she often went weeks without burning any gas. So our total energy cost for the car are $344.50 for 8+ months. That's $320 in electricity cost (we have a flat $40/mo deal with DTE Energy) + $24.50 in gas. *That amounts to 3.86 cents per mile driven*.



And I agree....if you're happy with what ya got, GREAT!  So am I, so allow me that.


----------



## Foxfyre

Again the information I posted yesterday suggested that the average cost per mile for an electric vehicle was around 7 cents while at 3.85 gallon and 32 mpg the average cost per mile for a gasoline powered vehicle is around 11 cents.  And if that information is correct, I agree that the 4 cents per mile savings would take an unacceptably long time to justify $20k or more in the price of the car, most especially when government subsidies are required to keep the car affordable at all.

But hey I love my Subaru and some people wouldn't touch one.  Whatever floats somebody's boat, power to the.


----------



## martinjlm

Foxfyre said:


> Again the information I posted yesterday suggested that the average cost per mile for an electric vehicle was around 7 cents while at 3.85 gallon and 32 mpg the average cost per mile for a gasoline powered vehicle is around 11 cents.  And if that information is correct, I agree that the 4 cents per mile savings would take an unacceptably long time to justify $20k or more in the price of the car, most especially when government subsidies are required to keep the car affordable at all.
> 
> *But hey I love my Subaru and some people wouldn't touch one.  Whatever floats somebody's boat, power to the.*



I so agree with the idea of allowing everyone to be happy with their choice of vehicle.  What tends to piss me off is when people use distorted "facts" in an attempt to demonize a particular vehicle because their politician or talking head of choice has provided enough fact-devoid sound-bites to give them "ammunition" to do so.

I started this thread because I am truly in awe of how my wife's Volt has over-achieved our expectations.  No political intent whatsoever.  But within a handful of posts, all the far-right wacko bullshit "facts" come flying out from under the woodwork.  I am not accusing you personally, Foxfyre, even though some of your information was questionable, because in similar threads on this topic you have shown the ability to at least listen to facts.  I'm just a little tired of this thread bending toward political ideological positioning instead of discussion on a really cool car.  (Hint....that's why I posted it in *Automotive* instead of *Politics)*.

I do, however, have this nasty habit of responding to bullshit with facts.


----------



## Foxfyre

martinjlm said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again the information I posted yesterday suggested that the average cost per mile for an electric vehicle was around 7 cents while at 3.85 gallon and 32 mpg the average cost per mile for a gasoline powered vehicle is around 11 cents.  And if that information is correct, I agree that the 4 cents per mile savings would take an unacceptably long time to justify $20k or more in the price of the car, most especially when government subsidies are required to keep the car affordable at all.
> 
> *But hey I love my Subaru and some people wouldn't touch one.  Whatever floats somebody's boat, power to the.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I so agree with the idea of allowing everyone to be happy with their choice of vehicle.  What tends to piss me off is when people use distorted "facts" in an attempt to demonize a particular vehicle because their politician or talking head of choice has provided enough fact-devoid sound-bites to give them "ammunition" to do so.
> 
> I started this thread because I am truly in awe of how my wife's Volt has over-achieved our expectations.  No political intent whatsoever.  But within a handful of posts, all the far-right wacko bullshit "facts" come flying out from under the woodwork.  I am not accusing you personally, Foxfyre, even though some of your information was questionable, because in similar threads on this topic you have shown the ability to at least listen to facts.  I'm just a little tired of this thread bending toward political ideological positioning instead of discussion on a really cool car.  (Hint....that's why I posted it in *Automotive* instead of *Politics)*.
> 
> I do, however, have this nasty habit of responding to bullshit with facts.
Click to expand...


Well I didn't intend any offense, but I did question the cost of the electricity you had calculated.  That's why I went looking for some information on it, and the links I have posted to back up the 'facts' I have cited are not fly by night, obscure, or wingnut sites, so I felt my information was probably as good as anybody else's.

The point is, if you like your Volt, power to you.  I don't blame you for buying one at all, and I made that perfectly clear earlier too.  I am happy for you that you are happy with it.

But I'm not yet ready to agree that the Volt is some shining example of great technology, economy, greenness, or any of that stuff because I think the socioeconomic factors and government involvement make that questionable.  And I too have a nasty habit of wanting the facts of the debate to be as accurate as possible.


----------



## martinjlm

Foxfyre said:


> martinjlm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again the information I posted yesterday suggested that the average cost per mile for an electric vehicle was around 7 cents while at 3.85 gallon and 32 mpg the average cost per mile for a gasoline powered vehicle is around 11 cents.  And if that information is correct, I agree that the 4 cents per mile savings would take an unacceptably long time to justify $20k or more in the price of the car, most especially when government subsidies are required to keep the car affordable at all.
> 
> *But hey I love my Subaru and some people wouldn't touch one.  Whatever floats somebody's boat, power to the.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I so agree with the idea of allowing everyone to be happy with their choice of vehicle.  What tends to piss me off is when people use distorted "facts" in an attempt to demonize a particular vehicle because their politician or talking head of choice has provided enough fact-devoid sound-bites to give them "ammunition" to do so.
> 
> I started this thread because I am truly in awe of how my wife's Volt has over-achieved our expectations.  No political intent whatsoever.  But within a handful of posts, all the far-right wacko bullshit "facts" come flying out from under the woodwork.  I am not accusing you personally, Foxfyre, even though some of your information was questionable, because in similar threads on this topic you have shown the ability to at least listen to facts.  I'm just a little tired of this thread bending toward political ideological positioning instead of discussion on a really cool car.  (Hint....that's why I posted it in *Automotive* instead of *Politics)*.
> 
> I do, however, have this nasty habit of responding to bullshit with facts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well I didn't intend any offense, but I did question the cost of the electricity you had calculated.  That's why I went looking for some information on it, and the links I have posted to back up the 'facts' I have cited are not fly by night, obscure, or wingnut sites, so I felt my information was probably as good as anybody else's.
Click to expand...


I recognize that you did not intend to offend.  That's why I tried to emphasize that I wasn't accusing you in particular.  You and I only have a difference of opinion wrt government subsidies, but hey, your opinion, my opinion.  I get the impression that we could have a cup of coffee and agree to disagree.



Foxfyre said:


> The point is, *if you like your Volt, power to you*.


 No pun intended?



Foxfyre said:


> I don't blame you for buying one at all, and I made that perfectly clear earlier too.  I am happy for you that you are happy with it.
> 
> But I'm not yet ready to agree that the Volt is some shining example of great technology, economy, greenness, or any of that stuff because I think the socioeconomic factors and government involvement make that questionable.  *And I too have a nasty habit of wanting the facts of the debate to be as accurate as possible.*



You and I will get along just fine.


----------



## VFanRJ

Let's talk subsidies. The tax credits for these types of EV vehicles are a tiny fraction of the subsidies that go to the oil companies. Also, various types of oil investment funds have aggressive tax credits that also contribute to the deficit.  This criticism of the EV subsidies is quite hypocritical. 

Now lets talk about an entirely different level of expense to U.S. tax payers who have shelled out $1.4 trillion for wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.  We need to quit sending all of our money over their; first for oil and second for wars to protect access to oil.  My Volt consumes electricity produced in U.S.A; I throw pennies to OPEC for the 500 mpg that Im getting.


----------



## VFanRJ

My electricity is .10 per kilowatt hour.  I spend about $30 per month charging my Volt.  You have multiple methods to track this: You can record the kilowatts consumed on the dash, access the charging history off OnStar, or buy a meeter for the charging outlet.


----------



## VFanRJ

With tax credit the Volt is around $32k.  People buy cars all the time without an expecting ROI; however, the money I save in gas covers almost all of my lease payment.  This all about not sending money to OPEC and Chavez


----------



## VFanRJ

Hey Mad Scientist, according to J D Powers and Consumer Reports, the Chevy Volt is #1 in customer satisfaction; beating out the 911 Porsche and Dodge Challenger.


----------



## Foxfyre

VFanRJ said:


> Let's talk subsidies. The tax credits for these types of EV vehicles are a tiny fraction of the subsidies that go to the oil companies. Also, various types of oil investment funds have aggressive tax credits that also contribute to the deficit.  This criticism of the EV subsidies is quite hypocritical.
> 
> Now let&#8217;s talk about an entirely different level of expense to U.S. tax payers who have shelled out $1.4 trillion for wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.  We need to quit sending all of our money over their; first for oil and second for wars to protect access to oil.  My Volt consumes electricity produced in U.S.A; I throw pennies to OPEC for the 500 mpg that I&#8217;m getting.



Are they?  The tax subsidies for the Volt not only iinclude massivve tax credits for those who buy them--remember that the average income of the average Volt buyer is around $175k--so these are NOT subsidies who help the poor--but also direct cash grants right out of the U.S. treasury and therefore each one of us who pays federal taxes is paying for a portion of every Volt manufactured.

The oil companies aren't getting any direct grants and almost all of the tax credits they get are in the area of green energy production that theyare all doing now via government mandate.  

But from a recent excellent Forbes article re why there are still oil company subsidies, it is because most of those 'subsidies' don't benefit the oil companies but are for other purposes, mostly favored by people probably such as yourself:



> But look at the breakdown. The single largest expenditure is just over $1 billion for the Strategic Petroleum Reserve, which is designed to protect the U.S. from oil shortages. The second largest category is just under $1 billion in tax exemptions for farm fuel. The justification for that tax exemption is that fuel taxes pay for roads, and the farm equipment that benefits from the tax exemption is technically not supposed to be using the roads. The third largest category? $570 million for the Low-Income Home Energy Assistance Program. (This program is classified as a petroleum subsidy because it artificially reduces the price of fuel, which helps oil companies sell more of it). Those three programs account for $2.5 billion a year in &#8220;oil subsidies
> 
> *Oil Subsidies that Liberals Love*
> So why do we still have fossil fuel subsidies? Because almost nobody &#8212; not even Bill McKibben &#8212; wants to get rid of all of the programs that are classified as fossil fuel subsidies. I suspect McKibben would not advocate eliminating the Low Income Home Energy Assistance Program. Two of the most outspoken Democratic opponents of oil subsidies have strongly defended this particular program &#8212; even though it is classified by the OECD as the 3rd largest petroleum subsidy. When Republicans tried to cut funding for the program, Sen. Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., called the proposal an &#8220;extreme idea&#8221; that would &#8220; set the country backwards.&#8221; Rep. Edward Markey, D-Mass, states on his website that he is a &#8220;longtime Congressional champion of providing assistance to low-income families to heat and cool their homes.&#8221;
> 
> http://www.forbes.com/sites/energys...dies-persist-even-liberals-love-them/.&#8221;



In short things are not always what they seem.  And it pays to do some digging for real information rather than just accept the assigned talking points and politically correct one-liners designed to demonize some industry.


----------



## Nova78

Living with a chevy volt.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KUiqoZcdQc&feature=player_embedded]Barkhamsted garage fire - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Slapshot28

Nova78 said:


> Living with a chevy volt.  <snip>



Nice FUD-work, Nova78.  What, no plagiarizing this time?  Your are only good for posting a 2-year-old video, and a 2008 stock photo of some random car fire?  You can do better...

How about a sizzling-hot video from a Volt Pool Party?  Much more entertaining!!

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JE3PqOz46zQ&feature=player_embedded]Voltchella: The Chevy Volt Pool Party - YouTube[/ame]

Or a picture of the Volt surrounded by all of the awards it's collected?






The Volt just won #1 in customer satisfaction for the second year in a row: http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.d...-ranked-by-consumer-reports-as-most-loved-car

"DETROIT -- The Chevrolet Volt plug-in hybrid landed atop Consumer Reports' annual owner-satisfaction ranking for the second straight year.

Ninety-two percent of responding Volt owners in a poll of the magazine's subscribers said they definitely would buy a Volt again, tops among 240 models, the magazine said today.

Several other fuel-efficient models also scored highly, including Toyota's Camry Hybrid, Prius, and Prius C as well as Nissan's Leaf electric car.

The Volt's two-year reign "points to the continuing trend of owners' enthusiasm for cars that are fuel-efficient cars, especially as we see more and more hybrid and electric models hitting the market," Rik Paul, Consumer Reports' auto editor, said in a statement.

*It's also affirmation for GM executives who've battled bad press from early soft sales, scathing criticism from opponents of green-car subsidies, and a late 2011 federal safety probe into battery fires that turned up no significant risks.*"

I'm sure that last paragragh resonates with you.


----------



## Foxfyre

Slapshot28 said:


> Nova78 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Living with a chevy volt.  <snip>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nice FUD-work, Nova78.  What, no plagiarizing this time?  Your are only good for posting a 2-year-old video, and a 2008 stock photo of some random car fire?  You can do better...
> 
> How about a sizzling-hot video from a Volt Pool Party?  Much more entertaining!!
> 
> [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JE3PqOz46zQ&feature=player_embedded]Voltchella: The Chevy Volt Pool Party - YouTube[/ame]
> 
> Or a picture of the Volt surrounded by all of the awards it's collected?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Volt just won #1 in customer satisfaction for the second year in a row: http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.d...-ranked-by-consumer-reports-as-most-loved-car
> 
> "DETROIT -- The Chevrolet Volt plug-in hybrid landed atop Consumer Reports' annual owner-satisfaction ranking for the second straight year.
> 
> Ninety-two percent of responding Volt owners in a poll of the magazine's subscribers said they definitely would buy a Volt again, tops among 240 models, the magazine said today.
> 
> Several other fuel-efficient models also scored highly, including Toyota's Camry Hybrid, Prius, and Prius C as well as Nissan's Leaf electric car.
> 
> The Volt's two-year reign "points to the continuing trend of owners' enthusiasm for cars that are fuel-efficient cars, especially as we see more and more hybrid and electric models hitting the market," Rik Paul, Consumer Reports' auto editor, said in a statement.
> 
> *It's also affirmation for GM executives who've battled bad press from early soft sales, scathing criticism from opponents of green-car subsidies, and a late 2011 federal safety probe into battery fires that turned up no significant risks.*"
> 
> I'm sure that last paragragh resonates with you.
Click to expand...


Good for the Volt!    I'm sure the folks who can afford one are quite happy with them as is the author of the OP.   But, based on the average $175k incomes of Chevy Volt buyers, and given the apparent great success of the product among these buyer, perhaps we soon won't need government subsidies to produce them and to persuade people to buy them?


----------



## Slapshot28

Foxfyre said:


> Good for the Volt!    I'm sure the folks who can afford one are quite happy with them as is the author of the OP.   But, based on the average $175k incomes of Chevy Volt buyers, and given the apparent great success of the product among these buyer, perhaps we soon won't need government subsidies to produce them and to persuade people to buy them?



I agree.  Personally, my wife and I did not qualify for the Volt tax credits (federal or state), and actually quite a few Volt owners are in the same situation.  (The credit only applies to reducing your tax bill.  It's not a hand-out per se.)  While I do not necessarilly advocate this, most developed countries offer stronger incentives than those in the US (Government incentives for plug-in electric vehicles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).

Over the years, my wife and I have paid a LOT of taxes, both personally and at the corporate level.  Our tax dollars have gone to some questionable activities (like drilling subsidies and dubious wars); however, we are happy to be supporting advanced research, better education, and green initiatives.  The latest permafrost observations are frightening, to say the least.


----------



## KissMy

martinjlm said:


> KissMy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> martinjlm said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes you can.  The Volt is ALWAYS on electric power.  The wheels are always turned by an electric motor.  The only purpose the gas engine serves is to power the electric motor if/when you run out of battery power.
> 
> The AC never draws off of the gas engine as is the case in conventional cars.  Running the AC full blast will reduce your battery range, but otherwise, nothing is different.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *I don't believe that is true.* The wheels are driven by both gas & electric power. You can run on all electric, gas drive & charge or gas & electric together for max horse power. *It uses a planetary, ring & sun gear setup.* It also may be possible that the electric motor spins the engine to start it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It is absolutely true.  That was the center point of the Volt concept.  It does not have any aspect of a planetary step gear transmission in the vehicle (ironically, early in my careers was responsible for writing service procedures for planetary transmissions....even earlier for manufacturing sun gears).  What you are describing is how some traditional hybrids work, but not an EREV like the Volt.
> 
> From one of the early Chevrolet Press Releases when the car was launched in late 2010......
> 
> *Electric drive supplies power to the wheels*
> A 111-kW (149-hp) electric drive unit powers the Volts wheels at all times. Positioned under the hood next to the engine, it packages a pair of electric motors and a multi-mode transaxle with continuously variable capability. Unlike a conventional powertrain, there are no step gears within the unit, and no direct mechanical linkage from the engine, through the drive unit to the wheels.
Click to expand...


Chevrolet Volt Drivetrain - Electric Vehicle or Just a Hybrid?


----------



## Slapshot28

KissMy said:


> Chevrolet Volt Drivetrain - Electric Vehicle or Just a Hybrid?



OMG, what rock are you living under?  That "controversy" is two years old--same vintage as the Volt "fire" stories.

Have you driven a Volt?  Obviously not, or you would know that the Volt's engine never turns on for the first 30-40 miles.  Read my lips: *It's electric!*

After the Volt's battery is depleted, at higher speeds the Volt can clutch-in its gasoline engine to help drive the wheels and improve efficiency.  But at lower speeds the gas engine simply is an on-board electric generator, nothing more.  That's why the Volt is so quick and so silent.

From Wikipedia (Chevy Volt Drivetrain):

"The drivetrain platform permits the Volt to operate as a *pure battery electric vehicle until its battery capacity has been depleted to a defined level, at which time it commences to operate as a series hybrid design where the gasoline engine drives the generator, which keeps the battery at minimum level charge and provides power to the electric motors.* The full charge of the battery is replenished only by loading it on the electrical grid.

While in this series mode at higher speeds and loads, (typically above 30 miles per hour (48 km/h) at light to moderate loads) the gasoline engine can engage mechanically to the output from the transmission and assist both electric motors to drive the wheels, in which case the Volt operates as a _power-split or series-parallel hybrid_. After its all-electric range has been depleted, at speeds between 30 to 70 miles per hour (48 to 110 km/h), the Volt is programmed to select the most efficient drive mode, which improves performance and boosts high-speed efficiency by 10 to 15 percent."

Move along.  There's nothing to see here...


----------



## Synthaholic

Foxfyre said:


> Slapshot28 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nova78 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Living with a chevy volt.  <snip>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nice FUD-work, Nova78.  What, no plagiarizing this time?  Your are only good for posting a 2-year-old video, and a 2008 stock photo of some random car fire?  You can do better...
> 
> How about a sizzling-hot video from a Volt Pool Party?  Much more entertaining!!
> 
> [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JE3PqOz46zQ&feature=player_embedded"]Voltchella: The Chevy Volt Pool Party - YouTube[/ame]
> 
> Or a picture of the Volt surrounded by all of the awards it's collected?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Volt just won #1 in customer satisfaction for the second year in a row: http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.d...-ranked-by-consumer-reports-as-most-loved-car
> 
> "DETROIT -- The Chevrolet Volt plug-in hybrid landed atop Consumer Reports' annual owner-satisfaction ranking for the second straight year.
> 
> Ninety-two percent of responding Volt owners in a poll of the magazine's subscribers said they definitely would buy a Volt again, tops among 240 models, the magazine said today.
> 
> Several other fuel-efficient models also scored highly, including Toyota's Camry Hybrid, Prius, and Prius C as well as Nissan's Leaf electric car.
> 
> The Volt's two-year reign "points to the continuing trend of owners' enthusiasm for cars that are fuel-efficient cars, especially as we see more and more hybrid and electric models hitting the market," Rik Paul, Consumer Reports' auto editor, said in a statement.
> 
> *It's also affirmation for GM executives who've battled bad press from early soft sales, scathing criticism from opponents of green-car subsidies, and a late 2011 federal safety probe into battery fires that turned up no significant risks.*"
> 
> I'm sure that last paragragh resonates with you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Good for the Volt!*    I'm sure the folks who can afford one* are quite happy with them as is the author of the OP.   But, based on the average $175k incomes of Chevy Volt buyers, and given the apparent great success of the product among these buyer, perhaps we soon won't need government subsidies to produce them and to persuade people to buy them?
Click to expand...


$32k is not expensive for a car these days.  A Honda Odyssey minivan runs close to $35k these days.  How many cars are sold each year that are more expensive than $32k?  A bunch.  I doubt that BMW or Lexus or Acura or Mercedes or Infiniti even have a cheaper car available.

If you are currently spending $50-$100 per week for gas - as many Expedition/Tahoe/Escalade/Armada/full sized sedan owners do - that $200-$400 is a good chunk toward the monthly equity payment of a Volt.

I am seriously considering one as a replacement for my Volvo S70 T5, which is $50 per week in gas.


----------



## PoliticalChic

martinjlm said:


> Meant to reply to the EPA comment earlier, but let the moment get away from me......
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1.	Based on energy use, the Volt has been averaging close to 2 miles per kilowatt-hour, which, *according to the EPA, is the equivalent of 65 mpg.* But thats for the first 25 miles or so, on battery alone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> According to these stickers, the EPA thinks the *electric MPG equivalent is 94* for the 2012 (my wife's car) *and 98 for the 2013*, not the *65 quoted by PoliticalChic.*  And the electric range is variable by temperature and driving habits.  I've been in my wife's car when it as reported as much as 45 miles and as little as 30 miles available at full charge.  I would expect 25 would be on a very cold day.  By the way, we're in Detroit.  Hardly a tropical climate.
Click to expand...





That was a direct quote from The April 2011 edition of Consumer Reports.


----------



## martinjlm

KissMy said:


> martinjlm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KissMy said:
> 
> 
> 
> *I don't believe that is true.* The wheels are driven by both gas & electric power. You can run on all electric, gas drive & charge or gas & electric together for max horse power. *It uses a planetary, ring & sun gear setup.* It also may be possible that the electric motor spins the engine to start it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is absolutely true.  That was the center point of the Volt concept.  It does not have any aspect of a planetary step gear transmission in the vehicle (ironically, early in my careers was responsible for writing service procedures for planetary transmissions....even earlier for manufacturing sun gears).  What you are describing is how some traditional hybrids work, but not an EREV like the Volt.
> 
> From one of the early Chevrolet Press Releases when the car was launched in late 2010......
> 
> *Electric drive supplies power to the wheels*
> A 111-kW (149-hp) electric drive unit powers the Volt&#8217;s wheels at all times. Positioned under the hood next to the engine, it packages a pair of electric motors and a multi-mode transaxle with continuously variable capability. Unlike a conventional powertrain, there are no step gears within the unit, and no direct mechanical linkage from the engine, through the drive unit to the wheels.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Chevrolet Volt Drivetrain - Electric Vehicle or Just a Hybrid?
Click to expand...


I can see how you could come to your conclusion.  Some folks see a hunk of hardware with a few gears in it and think "transmission!  Those are each of the "gears".  Sorta yes, but mostly no.  I have annotated the picture you posted to show what each of the major components are and how they relate to where the engine attaches and where the wheels attach.  The planetary in the cutaway is actually INSIDE the primary electric motor, not part of a transmission.   It helps regulate the speed at which the motor spins.  In a transmission, sets of planetary gear sets revolving around sun gears help establish gear ratios.  There is no transmission related planetary gear set in the Volt.  It's more like a single speed reduction power flow.


----------



## martinjlm

PoliticalChic said:


> martinjlm said:
> 
> 
> 
> Meant to reply to the EPA comment earlier, but let the moment get away from me......
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1.	Based on energy use, the Volt has been averaging close to 2 miles per kilowatt-hour, which, *according to the EPA, is the equivalent of 65 mpg.* But thats for the first 25 miles or so, on battery alone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> According to these stickers, the EPA thinks the *electric MPG equivalent is 94* for the 2012 (my wife's car) *and 98 for the 2013*, not the *65 quoted by PoliticalChic.*  And the electric range is variable by temperature and driving habits.  I've been in my wife's car when it as reported as much as 45 miles and as little as 30 miles available at full charge.  I would expect 25 would be on a very cold day.  By the way, we're in Detroit.  Hardly a tropical climate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That was a direct quote from The April 2011 edition of Consumer Reports.
Click to expand...


Understood.  Consumer Reports apparently got it wrong.


----------



## Slapshot28

KissMy said:


>



Want to see a real transmission?  Here is what Mercedes puts in their cars (debuted in 2003):


----------



## martinjlm

martinjlm said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> martinjlm said:
> 
> 
> 
> Meant to reply to the EPA comment earlier, but let the moment get away from me......
> 
> 
> 
> According to these stickers, the EPA thinks the *electric MPG equivalent is 94* for the 2012 (my wife's car) *and 98 for the 2013*, not the *65 quoted by PoliticalChic.*  And the electric range is variable by temperature and driving habits.  I've been in my wife's car when it as reported as much as 45 miles and as little as 30 miles available at full charge.  I would expect 25 would be on a very cold day.  By the way, we're in Detroit.  Hardly a tropical climate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That was a direct quote from The April 2011 edition of Consumer Reports.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Understood.  Consumer Reports apparently got it wrong.
Click to expand...


And since we're talking about Consumer Reports, here's what they had to say today.......

Chevy Volt tops Consumer Reports most-loved car survey again | Reuters


----------



## Synthaholic

*Owner satisfaction*

*Which cars would owners buy again?*

                                  Last updated: November 2012 







_Chevrolet Volt_ 




Heres a hot tip: If you want a car that you can  really get excited about, choose one that gives you great fuel economy, a  fun driving experience, and/or luxurious surroundings. Thats the clear  message from our latest owner-satisfaction survey, in which all of the  10 highest-scoring models feature one or more of those traits.

That list includes the top-scoring Chevrolet Volt  extended-range electric car, which gets the equivalent of 99 mpg when  running on electric power, can go gas-free for about 35 miles, and  earned the highest tally for the second straight year.

Among  the 44 models that achieved our top owner-satisfaction rating, 10 were  fuel-efficient vehicles, including hybrids, diesels, and electric cars. Another 10 were purebred sports cars. And 13 were luxury or upscale  models, with most of them delivering sporty handling, strong engine  performance, or both.


Our annual owner-satisfaction survey, conducted by the  Consumer Reports National Research Center, asks subscribers a single,  revealing question: Considering all factors (price, performance,  reliability, comfort, enjoyment, etc.), would they get their same  vehicle if they had it to do all over again? This year, we received  responses on about 350,000 vehicles and more than 240 models, spanning  the 2010 through 2013 model years. A models score is based on the  percentage of respondents who answered definitely yes. And to earn our  top rating, a model needs to have at least 80 percent of owners say  they would definitely get it again.


The Volts 92 score edged out the Chev*rolet Corvette and Porsche 911  sports cars by 1 point. When the Volt achieved the top score last year,  it had only been in showrooms for a few months and was being grabbed up  by enthusiastic early adopt*ers. So we were curious to see whether it  could hold on to that high level of loyalty. Despite some bad publicity  over the past year, including reports of battery fires, this years  survey shows that the Volts high satisfaction score is no fluke.




*snip*


Owner satisfaction | Would you buy that car again? - Consumer Reports


----------



## nitroz

Gas sitting in it for that long? Looks like a good way to gunk up the fuel lines.


----------



## Slapshot28

nitroz said:


> Gas sitting in it for that long? Looks like a good way to gunk up the fuel lines.



That is a valid concern; however, the Volt engineers incorporated a system to handle it: Chevy Volt's "maintenance mode" will burn gas to prevent aging


----------



## martinjlm

Slapshot28 said:


> nitroz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gas sitting in it for that long? Looks like a good way to gunk up the fuel lines.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is a valid concern; however, the Volt engineers incorporated a system to handle it: Chevy Volt's "maintenance mode" will burn gas to prevent aging
Click to expand...


Our experience has been that if the engine hasn't run in about 6 weeks, it will turn on while the car is being driven.  It'll run for a short time, then it'll shut itself off.  Burns about 1/10 of a gallon of fuel when it does that.

There's also another algorithm that can measure fuel quantity and estimate the age of the fuel based on the concentration of additives.  When it estimates fuel is a year old, it will burn off enough to satisfy the computer that the rest of the gas is fairly new.


----------



## Foxfyre

Again, for those who buy a Chevy Volt and love it, good on you.   But again, given the affluence of those who can afford one, I wonder how many would admit the car did not live up to its press if it didn't?   But I have no problem admitting that a lot of Volt owners are saying that they love their cars.

But there remains an expensive (for you and me) downside to the story of the Volt.  And that needs to be admitted too.

In a recent issue of Forbes Magazine:



> After Reuters claim that GM was losing $49,000 per vehicle on the Chevy Volt, former GM CEO (and Volt developer) Bob Lutz came to its spirited defense at Forbes.com with an article titled The Real Story on GMs Volt Costs.  One of the things he didnt specifically address was sales.
> 
> Not to put too fine a point on it, for the umpteenth time concerning the Volt, GM is playing fast and lose with the facts.
> 
> GM is giving away rent-a-Volts. While the claim of 2800+ sales in August is certainly enough to still the Volts critics, at least until Election Day (which is all that really matters to the current management), that number is an automotive Potemkin Village, concealing enough rot to make any czar, car or otherwise, proud.
> 
> With additional subsidies from GM (that would be you and me), Chevrolet dealers in August were offering two-year Volt leases for as little as $250 down and $199/month.  Fully 2/3s of the sales were leases, leaving around 925 cars that were truly sold.  Prior to the giveaway leases, GM says that 40% of 2012 sales were also leases.  The number remains the samean average of about 925 cars really sold each month for this year.
> 
> Automotive News recently reported that the feds have purchased 182 Volts so far in 2012.  Now were down to 900 real sales per month..  Corporate (fleet) sales are conservatively estimated at 5% of the total, putting the consumer number closer to 850.
> 
> Dont forget that the Department of Defense has committed to buying 1,500 of these wallet-hogs. These arent combat vehicles and will no doubt largely wind up in some Colonels driveway.
> 
> There are enough scams here to satisfy a Chicago politician. The giveaway lease cars are initially bought by dealerships at cost, which Bob Lutz says is $37,000.  Then they pocket an additional $7,500the Volt subsidy that Obama proposes raising to $10,000paid by  you and me.
> 
> Two years later they get the car back. . . .
> 
> . . . .Heres the sorry bottom line.  Volt sales to individuals are really running around 10,000 per year.  Given a smaller number of leases and fleet sales last year, this is pretty much what GM should have gotten if there werent supply problems in the first half of 2011.
> 
> The fact is that no one wants this car and the government is goosing sales by giving them away as short-term leases and purchasing them for officers to tool around in.  Meanwhile, the dealers make a killinglargely on the taxpayers dime.
> 
> Notwithstanding GM's Protests, No One Wants The Chevy Volt - Forbes


----------



## Slapshot28

Foxfyre said:


> Again, for those who buy a Chevy Volt and love it, good on you.   But again, given the affluence of those who can afford one, I wonder how many would admit the car did not live up to its press if it didn't?   But I have no problem admitting that a lot of Volt owners are saying that they love their cars.
> 
> But there remains an expensive (for you and me) downside to the story of the Volt.  And that needs to be admitted too.



Two days later, for the sake of balance, Forbes also published a strong and credible rebuttal to Mr. Michaels' biased story.  (Michaels is well-known pro-oil shill after all.)



> It turns out that Michaels is not only wrong, hes fairly spectacularly wrong. The Volt is the 133rd most popular car sold in the U.S. out of 262 total through the first 8 months of 2012, according to Timothy Cain at Good Car, Bad Car. In other words, its the median car  half are more popular, half are less popular. Given that its an entirely new kind of vehicle, expensive and demonized by people with an often strange political agenda, thats fairly remarkable.
> 
> Whats perhaps more remarkable is how closely sales of the Volt to date track the sales of the original Toyota Prius here in the U.S. GM sold 7,671 Volts here last year, while Toyota sold 5,562 Priuses in 2000 and 15,556 in 2001. If the rest of 2012 holds similar to the first 8 months, U.S. Volt sales will increase from the 13,497 to date up towards very approximately 20,000. Oh, and that Prius, barely a blip back in 2000? Its now the 14th most popular car in the U.S. Whats that expression about oaks and acorns?



Rants Aside, The Volt is Actually Earning Raves -- And it's a Hit - Forbes

New technology always has up-front costs, but if you never make the necessary investments, you lose for sure.


----------



## Foxfyre

Slapshot28 said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again, for those who buy a Chevy Volt and love it, good on you.   But again, given the affluence of those who can afford one, I wonder how many would admit the car did not live up to its press if it didn't?   But I have no problem admitting that a lot of Volt owners are saying that they love their cars.
> 
> But there remains an expensive (for you and me) downside to the story of the Volt.  And that needs to be admitted too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Two days later, for the sake of balance, Forbes also published a strong and credible rebuttal to Mr. Michaels' biased story.  (Michaels is well-known pro-oil shill after all.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It turns out that Michaels is not only wrong, he&#8217;s fairly spectacularly wrong. The Volt is the 133rd most popular car sold in the U.S. out of 262 total through the first 8 months of 2012, according to Timothy Cain at Good Car, Bad Car. In other words, it&#8217;s the &#8220;median car&#8221; &#8212; half are more popular, half are less popular. Given that it&#8217;s an entirely new kind of vehicle, expensive and demonized by people with an often strange political agenda, that&#8217;s fairly remarkable.
> 
> What&#8217;s perhaps more remarkable is how closely sales of the Volt to date track the sales of the original Toyota Prius here in the U.S. GM sold 7,671 Volts here last year, while Toyota sold 5,562 Priuses in 2000 and 15,556 in 2001. If the rest of 2012 holds similar to the first 8 months, U.S. Volt sales will increase from the 13,497 to date up towards very approximately 20,000. Oh, and that Prius, barely a blip back in 2000? It&#8217;s now the 14th most popular car in the U.S. What&#8217;s that expression about oaks and acorns?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Rants Aside, The Volt is Actually Earning Raves -- And it's a Hit - Forbes
> 
> New technology always has up-front costs, but if you never make the necessary investments, you lose for sure.
Click to expand...


That is a credible rebuttal for sure.  I don't know more than what I read from several different sources plus one Volt owner I know who says he'll never have another.  Not because it is a terrible car but because he has just found it not all that practical for him.

So I conclude that the truth is somewhere in the middle.  The Volt is a good automobile and provides a good experience, but not so good that GM/government doesn't have to bribe people to buy them.   At the taxpayer's expense.   Here's perhaps a more objective analysis:

Review: Chevrolet Volt vs. Chevrolet Cruze Eco | The Truth About Cars


----------



## Slapshot28

Foxfyre said:


> Slapshot28 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again, for those who buy a Chevy Volt and love it, good on you.   But again, given the affluence of those who can afford one, I wonder how many would admit the car did not live up to its press if it didn't?   But I have no problem admitting that a lot of Volt owners are saying that they love their cars.
> 
> But there remains an expensive (for you and me) downside to the story of the Volt.  And that needs to be admitted too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Two days later, for the sake of balance, Forbes also published a strong and credible rebuttal to Mr. Michaels' biased story.  (Michaels is well-known pro-oil shill after all.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It turns out that Michaels is not only wrong, hes fairly spectacularly wrong. The Volt is the 133rd most popular car sold in the U.S. out of 262 total through the first 8 months of 2012, according to Timothy Cain at Good Car, Bad Car. In other words, its the median car  half are more popular, half are less popular. Given that its an entirely new kind of vehicle, expensive and demonized by people with an often strange political agenda, thats fairly remarkable.
> 
> Whats perhaps more remarkable is how closely sales of the Volt to date track the sales of the original Toyota Prius here in the U.S. GM sold 7,671 Volts here last year, while Toyota sold 5,562 Priuses in 2000 and 15,556 in 2001. If the rest of 2012 holds similar to the first 8 months, U.S. Volt sales will increase from the 13,497 to date up towards very approximately 20,000. Oh, and that Prius, barely a blip back in 2000? Its now the 14th most popular car in the U.S. Whats that expression about oaks and acorns?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Rants Aside, The Volt is Actually Earning Raves -- And it's a Hit - Forbes
> 
> New technology always has up-front costs, but if you never make the necessary investments, you lose for sure.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is a credible rebuttal for sure.  I don't know more than what I read from several different sources plus one Volt owner I know who says he'll never have another.  Not because it is a terrible car but because he has just found it not all that practical for him.
> 
> So I conclude that the truth is somewhere in the middle.  The Volt is a good automobile and provides a good experience, but not so good that GM/government doesn't have to bribe people to buy them.   At the taxpayer's expense.   Here's perhaps a more objective analysis:
> 
> Review: Chevrolet Volt vs. Chevrolet Cruze Eco | The Truth About Cars
Click to expand...


Yes, I agree.  That is a fair review.

I'm no fan of government bribes either, but government incentives permeate our lives.  Ironically it's better here in the US than in almost every other country.  Most countries have MUCH more government influence.

Some of us are more receptive to certain government incentives and less receptive to others.  Personally, I agree with incentives for capital investment, education, R&D, and support for genuinely unfortunate people.  I'm less keen on our dollars going to cheap gasoline, certain dubious and expensive war efforts, and supporting anyone who even slightly abuses the system.

For me the Volt is a pretty modest program that has potentially important ramifications.  My wife and I did not qualify for the tax credits (federal or state), so at least we can say that we did not take any public money to buy our car.  Frankly, we think there are much bigger and more important fish to fry in our country.


----------



## martinjlm

Foxfyre said:


> Again, for those who buy a Chevy Volt and love it, good on you.   But again, given the affluence of those who can afford one, I wonder how many would admit the car did not live up to its press if it didn't?   But I have no problem admitting that a lot of Volt owners are saying that they love their cars.
> 
> But there remains an expensive (for you and me) downside to the story of the Volt.  And that needs to be admitted too.
> 
> In a recent issue of Forbes Magazine:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After Reuters claim that GM was losing $49,000 per vehicle on the Chevy Volt, former GM CEO (and Volt developer) Bob Lutz came to its spirited defense at Forbes.com with an article titled The Real Story on GMs Volt Costs.  One of the things he didnt specifically address was sales.
> 
> Not to put too fine a point on it, for the umpteenth time concerning the Volt, GM is playing fast and lose with the facts.
> 
> *GM is giving away rent-a-Volts.* While the claim of 2800+ sales in August is certainly enough to still the Volts critics, at least until Election Day (which is all that really matters to the current management), that number is an automotive Potemkin Village, concealing enough rot to make any czar, car or otherwise, proud.
> 
> *With additional subsidies from GM (that would be you and me), Chevrolet dealers in August were offering two-year Volt leases for as little as $250 down and $199/month.  Fully 2/3s of the sales were leases, leaving around 925 cars that were truly sold.  Prior to the giveaway leases, GM says that 40% of 2012 sales were also leases.  The number remains the samean average of about 925 cars really sold each month for this year.*
> 
> Automotive News recently reported that the feds have purchased 182 Volts so far in 2012.  Now were down to 900 real sales per month..  Corporate (fleet) sales are conservatively estimated at 5% of the total, putting the consumer number closer to 850.
> 
> Dont forget that the Department of Defense has committed to buying 1,500 of these wallet-hogs. These arent combat vehicles and will no doubt largely wind up in some Colonels driveway.
> 
> There are enough scams here to satisfy a Chicago politician. The giveaway lease cars are initially bought by dealerships at cost, which Bob Lutz says is $37,000.  Then they pocket an additional $7,500the Volt subsidy that Obama proposes raising to $10,000paid by  you and me.
> 
> Two years later they get the car back. . . .
> 
> . . . .Heres the sorry bottom line.  Volt sales to individuals are really running around 10,000 per year.  Given a smaller number of leases and fleet sales last year, this is pretty much what GM should have gotten if there werent supply problems in the first half of 2011.
> 
> The fact is that no one wants this car and the government is goosing sales by giving them away as short-term leases and purchasing them for officers to tool around in.  Meanwhile, the dealers make a killinglargely on the taxpayers dime.
> 
> Notwithstanding GM's Protests, No One Wants The Chevy Volt - Forbes
Click to expand...


Addressing just the part in *bold print....*

Vehicle leasing is a HUGE part of the automotive landscape.  Leasing is NOT renting.  You contract to make monthly payments for a set amount of time (24-48 months).  At the end of that time the car either goes back to the manufacturer, leasing company, or can be purchased by the lessee for a predetermined amount.  Which option is available depends on the type and terms of lease.  The luxury car market in the US might not exist if not for leasing.  More than 50% of sales of BMWs, Mercedes Benz, Porsches, etc are by lease.  So, if you wanna lump Volts in with lux cars, go ahead.  That would be more accurate than the rental car tag.  EVERY major automaker has a high percentage of leasing included in their sales figures.

The monthly price is a rather complex calculation of list price / residual value / and manufacturer incentives.  Residual is the industry calculated estimate of what the car will be worth at the end of the lease period.  It is also usually the pre-determined price that the lessee can buy the vehicle for at the end of the lease, if they so choose.  Chevrolet Volt has a higher than average residual, meaning that on a lease, the actual payment will be lower.  No doubt GM is also subsidizing the leases.  How much is anybody's guess, but figure that they are also subsidizing leases on pickup trucks, Escalades, and many other nameplates.  Same with most any other automaker you can name (maybe not Porsche).

It's all part of the game in the auto industry.  For some consumers leasing makes sense.  We've been leasing vehicles since 1998.  For my parents, leasing would make no sense.  My mom just traded in her 2006 car with 20,000 miles on it.  She doesn't drive enough to consider a lease.  My father-in-law drives over 20,000 miles a year, so he would also not benefit from a lease and would pay additional over-mileage charges at the end if he did lease.  My wife drives 12-14,000 miles a year.  Leases are typically built assuming 10-15,000 miles a year, so we sit right in the sweet spot.

Bottom line, people do not have to be affluent to lease a Volt.


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## Foxfyre

You can't lease a BMW, Mercedes, or Porsche for $200 down and $199/month though.  Whether verifiable or not, the writer was making the point that a large percentage of Volt sales were lease vehicles and were heavily subsidized by the government.  If so, that should be part of the discussion.


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## martinjlm

Foxfyre said:


> You can't lease a BMW, Mercedes, or Porsche for $200 down and $199/month though.  Whether verifiable or not, the writer was making the point that a large percentage of Volt sales were lease vehicles and were heavily subsidized by the government.  If so, that should be part of the discussion.



The best that Volt leases got was $1,000 down, $199/mo for a low mileage (10,000 miles per year).  Most common is $2,500 down $249/ mo for a 12,000 mile/yr lease.  I have seen BMW 3-Series go for $1,500 down $249/mo on year end clearances for low mileage leases.  Right now the biggest volume dealer in Michigan is offering the newly redesigned 2013 328iX for $359/month.  Couldn't find any reference to the down payment, but I'm sure it's not too much.  This is a $52,000 car with all wheel drive and a twin-turbo 6-cylinder.

Subsidies for leases always come from either the automaker or the financial entity (Ally, US Bank, Red Carpet Leasing), not the government.


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## martinjlm

For giggles and grins, here's an article from this past June that talks about leasing trends.....

Autoremarketing | Analysis: Luxury Lease Penetration Back at Pre-Recession Levels

Some highlights......


BMW, Mercedes, and Lexus continue to have high lease penetration
Infiniti has had a spike in leases and actually leads the industry with 60% of vehicle sales going through leases
Shows the percentage of transactions that are leases for specific financial institutions.  Mercedes Benz financing arm is on top with about 76% of their contracts being leases.  BMW is second

Another article I read recently pointed out the increase in leasing for Detroit automakers *cars. *up until now GM, Ford and Chrysler leases were mostly trucks and SUVs, because they always had great resale and residual values.  Now that cars and crossovers are considered to be more on par with foreign cars and crossovers, resale values and residuals are higher and lease deals are much more attractive.

Bottom line.....nothing wrong with leasing.  If there is, then BMW, Mercedes, and Infiniti must suck.  Leasing is just another buying option.  It allows buyers to get more vehicle for less money.  The flip side is at the end of the deal, you have to do something else and that can be (and usually is) entering into another lease for the next vehicle.  In other words, the never ending car payment.  The positive is you don't have to go through the process of selling or trading the vehicle you're coming out of.  You just give it back.


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## bestlink101

ive driven a tesla roadster, that shits amazing


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## percysunshine

*"Living with a Chevrolet Volt "*

I could live with a chevy volt...if she had a great body and her recharge interval was brief.


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## Jarlaxle

Foxfyre said:


> You can't lease a BMW, Mercedes, or Porsche for $200 down and $199/month though.  Whether verifiable or not, the writer was making the point that a large percentage of Volt sales were lease vehicles and were heavily subsidized by the government.  If so, that should be part of the discussion.



That's about the going rate to lease a Focus, a Honda Fit, or a Chevy Cruze...cars that sticker for about HALF what a Volt costs.


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## Underhill

I was watching the Volt development for years before it came out.   And from an engineers perspective it's a nice idea.   I still think it has potential to be a great platform.   I just don't think battery technology is quite there yet for hybrids.

What worries me is the complexity.   I don't lease cars, I put too many miles on them.   And I tend to drive them till they die.    I haven't gotten rid of a car with less than 150k ever.   

I'm not sure I would dare to try that with a Volt.

If you are, I wish you well.   It's a cool car if nothing else.    And I still think the design will be the future, or near it.    We just need better/cheaper batteries.


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## Foxfyre

martinjlm said:


> For giggles and grins, here's an article from this past June that talks about leasing trends.....
> 
> Autoremarketing | Analysis: Luxury Lease Penetration Back at Pre-Recession Levels
> 
> Some highlights......
> 
> 
> BMW, Mercedes, and Lexus continue to have high lease penetration
> Infiniti has had a spike in leases and actually leads the industry with 60% of vehicle sales going through leases
> Shows the percentage of transactions that are leases for specific financial institutions.  Mercedes Benz financing arm is on top with about 76% of their contracts being leases.  BMW is second
> 
> Another article I read recently pointed out the increase in leasing for Detroit automakers *cars. *up until now GM, Ford and Chrysler leases were mostly trucks and SUVs, because they always had great resale and residual values.  Now that cars and crossovers are considered to be more on par with foreign cars and crossovers, resale values and residuals are higher and lease deals are much more attractive.
> 
> Bottom line.....nothing wrong with leasing.  If there is, then BMW, Mercedes, and Infiniti must suck.  Leasing is just another buying option.  It allows buyers to get more vehicle for less money.  The flip side is at the end of the deal, you have to do something else and that can be (and usually is) entering into another lease for the next vehicle.  In other words, the never ending car payment.  The positive is you don't have to go through the process of selling or trading the vehicle you're coming out of.  You just give it back.



Well I do wish you well with you Volt.  I have no quarrel with folks driving GM cars though I am well on the record that I won't touch a GM automobile due to my resentment of taxpayer money used to bail out GM, decimate its stock value, and then turning it over to its own union who will have little incentive to protect anything other than their own jobs and pensions.

Meanwhile, the criticsm of the Volt finances continue even though the car itself gets pretty good reviews:



> Out in the trenches, even the cheap leases haven't always been effective.
> 
> A Chevrolet dealership that is part of an auto dealer group in Toms River, New Jersey, has sold only one Volt in the last year, said its president Adam Kraushaar. The dealership sells 90 to 100 Chevrolets a month.
> 
> The weak sales are forcing GM to idle the Detroit-Hamtramck assembly plant that makes the Chevrolet Volt for four weeks from September 17, according to plant suppliers and union sources. It is the second time GM has had to call a Volt production halt this year.
> 
> GM acknowledges the Volt continues to lose money, and suggests it might not reach break even until the next-generation model is launched in about three years.
> 
> "It's true, we're not making money yet" on the Volt, said Doug Parks, GM's vice president of global product programs and the former Volt development chief, in an interview. The car "eventually will make money. As the volume comes up and we get into the Gen 2 car, we're going to turn (the losses) around," Parks said.
> 
> "I don't see how General Motors will ever get its money back on that vehicle," countered Sandy Munro, president of Michigan-based Munro & Associates, which performs detailed tear-down analyses of vehicles and components for global manufacturers and the U.S. government.
> 
> It currently costs GM "at least" $75,000 to build the Volt, including development costs, Munro said. That's nearly twice the base price of the Volt before a $7,500 federal tax credit provided as part of President Barack Obama's green energy policy.
> 
> Other estimates range from $76,000 to $88,000, according to four industry consultants contacted by Reuters. The consultants' companies all have performed work for GM and are familiar with the Volt's development and production. They requested anonymity because of the sensitive nature of their auto industry ties.
> 
> Parks declined to comment on specific costs related to the Volt.
> Insight: GM's Volt: The ugly math of low sales, high costs | Reuters


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## Charles_Main

Foxfyre said:


> Again, for those who buy a Chevy Volt and love it, good on you.   But again, given the affluence of those who can afford one, I wonder how many would admit the car did not live up to its press if it didn't?   But I have no problem admitting that a lot of Volt owners are saying that they love their cars.
> 
> But there remains an expensive (for you and me) downside to the story of the Volt.  And that needs to be admitted too.
> 
> In a recent issue of Forbes Magazine:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After Reuters claim that GM was losing $49,000 per vehicle on the Chevy Volt, former GM CEO (and Volt developer) Bob Lutz came to its spirited defense at Forbes.com with an article titled The Real Story on GMs Volt Costs.  One of the things he didnt specifically address was sales.
> 
> Not to put too fine a point on it, for the umpteenth time concerning the Volt, GM is playing fast and lose with the facts.
> 
> GM is giving away rent-a-Volts. While the claim of 2800+ sales in August is certainly enough to still the Volts critics, at least until Election Day (which is all that really matters to the current management), that number is an automotive Potemkin Village, concealing enough rot to make any czar, car or otherwise, proud.
> 
> With additional subsidies from GM (that would be you and me), Chevrolet dealers in August were offering two-year Volt leases for as little as $250 down and $199/month.  Fully 2/3s of the sales were leases, leaving around 925 cars that were truly sold.  Prior to the giveaway leases, GM says that 40% of 2012 sales were also leases.  The number remains the samean average of about 925 cars really sold each month for this year.
> 
> Automotive News recently reported that the feds have purchased 182 Volts so far in 2012.  Now were down to 900 real sales per month..  Corporate (fleet) sales are conservatively estimated at 5% of the total, putting the consumer number closer to 850.
> 
> Dont forget that the Department of Defense has committed to buying 1,500 of these wallet-hogs. These arent combat vehicles and will no doubt largely wind up in some Colonels driveway.
> 
> There are enough scams here to satisfy a Chicago politician. The giveaway lease cars are initially bought by dealerships at cost, which Bob Lutz says is $37,000.  Then they pocket an additional $7,500the Volt subsidy that Obama proposes raising to $10,000paid by  you and me.
> 
> Two years later they get the car back. . . .
> 
> . . . .Heres the sorry bottom line.  Volt sales to individuals are really running around 10,000 per year.  Given a smaller number of leases and fleet sales last year, this is pretty much what GM should have gotten if there werent supply problems in the first half of 2011.
> 
> The fact is that no one wants this car and the government is goosing sales by giving them away as short-term leases and purchasing them for officers to tool around in.  Meanwhile, the dealers make a killinglargely on the taxpayers dime.
> 
> Notwithstanding GM's Protests, No One Wants The Chevy Volt - Forbes
Click to expand...


The biggest joke is even with a massive government subsidy on every sale, GM still loses money on every sale.


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## Foxfyre

Even priced well below their production cost, their sales are improving but still way below their target numbers.  So I don't know.  The Edsel never could quite get off the ground either, and the Saturn. though gorgeous and an exceptional automobile, never became a ccommo choice either.  The Volt is still really pricey for a sub compact car.


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## Charles_Main

Foxfyre said:


> Even priced well below their production cost, their sales are improving but still way below their target numbers.  So I don't know.  The Edsel never could quite get off the ground either, and the Saturn. though gorgeous and an exceptional automobile, never became a ccommo choice either.  The Volt is still really pricey for a sub compact car.


I wish I still had my Saturn SL1. Best damn car I ever owned. Never had a single problem with it in 176,000 miles. And the damn thing got 40MPG on the highway, and even better around 32 in the city. It truly was amazing. I used to laugh at Hybrid commercials bragging about 30 something MPG, my 1997 Saturn blew them out of the fucking water.


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## Foxfyre

Charles_Main said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> 
> Even priced well below their production cost, their sales are improving but still way below their target numbers.  So I don't know.  The Edsel never could quite get off the ground either, and the Saturn. though gorgeous and an exceptional automobile, never became a ccommo choice either.  The Volt is still really pricey for a sub compact car.
> 
> 
> 
> I wish I still had my Saturn SL1. Best damn car I ever owned. Never had a single problem with it in 176,000 miles. And the damn thing got 40MPG on the highway, and even better around 32 in the city. It truly was amazing. I used to laugh at Hybrid commercials bragging about 30 something MPG, my 1997 Saturn blew them out of the fucking water.
Click to expand...


We never had one but I did like them.  I feel the same way about my Subaru that will turn 18 yrs old this year.  Other than routine maintenance it has required almost nothing but a new battery, tires, hoses and belts over the years.  And it still gets over 30 mpg in town plus as been paid for for 15 years now.  That's pretty cheap transportation.


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## Papageorgio

Keep the VOLT, I'll take my Terrain and Suburban and pay the cost. If I'm in an accident, I stand a better chance of walking away than some guy in a VOLT.

I'll take safety anyway over gas mileage.


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## HereWeGoAgain

Personally I dont care what other people drive.
But for me my vehicle provides me a way to get out in the woods,down the beach and other way out places.
 I guess if I played tennis and bocce ball for fun I wouldnt mind an electric car.

And now you're seeing the gov bringing in new taxs to recoup the loss of tax revenue from reduced gas sales. So where's the savings now?
 I believe the latest attempt was taxing by the mile. 

If you find away to save money that cost the gov....they'll find a way to get it back.


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## Synthaholic

HereWeGoAgain said:


> Personally I dont care what other people drive.
> But for me my vehicle provides me a way to get out in the woods,down the beach and other way out places.
> I guess if I played tennis and bocce ball for fun I wouldnt mind an electric car.
> 
> *And now you're seeing the gov bringing in new taxs to recoup the loss of tax revenue from reduced gas sales.* So where's the savings now?
> I believe the latest attempt was taxing by the mile.
> 
> If you find away to save money that cost the gov....they'll find a way to get it back.




Link, please.


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## Foxfyre

HereWeGoAgain said:


> Personally I dont care what other people drive.
> But for me my vehicle provides me a way to get out in the woods,down the beach and other way out places.
> I guess if I played tennis and bocce ball for fun I wouldnt mind an electric car.
> 
> And now you're seeing the gov bringing in new taxs to recoup the loss of tax revenue from reduced gas sales. So where's the savings now?
> I believe the latest attempt was taxing by the mile.
> 
> If you find away to save money that cost the gov....they'll find a way to get it back.



I don't know what taxes you refer to here, but I do agree that I don't care what anybody else drives.   I applaud those who buy Volts and like them.  And in truth I would manage just fine with a Volt for just running to the grocery store or over to Lowe's or the office supply, all within five miles of here.   Would use no gasoline at all, but I still haven't seen anything other than rather obscure sources for what the electricity costs might be.

For me it doesn't matter though because I couldn't afford a Volt and wouldn't buy one if I could.

But usually when I take my little Subaru out, it is only me or maybe one other person who is in the car with me.  If I need to transport more folks than that, I take the bigger Subaru that has more rear seat legroom.   And if I still had kids at home when I was transporting softball teams or going to retreat with a bunch of ladies, etc. I would want a mini van or larger vehicle that we could cram several into.

What I don't want is for the government to limit how large or what sort of vehicle I must drive.  If I want to drive a Hummer one mile to work, I am depleting the world's resources less than the guy driving the hybrid 30 miles to work.  And if I can afford a Hummer and it makes my heart sing, I want the right to buy a Hummer.

And so it goes. . . .


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## 1Templar

It takes pioneers, like you and your wife, to cross the threshold of innovation. I don't know why the right hates GM, and loves everything Japanese, and German, but GM, Chrysler, and Ford are on a roll. Probably the right has a beef with our automakers because they are our automakers, and they wanted the destruction of the Big 3 so ;the automakers in the South would dominate auto production nationally. 
Just like with hurricane Sandy, the opposition of aid to the victims came from South. People in the North better wake up before its too late. 
Kudos to you and your wife, for really being... Great Americans.


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## Papageorgio

1Templar said:


> It takes pioneers, like you and your wife, to cross the threshold of innovation. I don't know why the right hates GM, and loves everything Japanese, and German, but GM, Chrysler, and Ford are on a roll. Probably the right has a beef with our automakers because they are our automakers, and they wanted the destruction of the Big 3 so ;the automakers in the South would dominate auto production nationally.
> Just like with hurricane Sandy, the opposition of aid to the victims came from South. People in the North better wake up before its too late.
> Kudos to you and your wife, for really being... Great Americans.



Pioneers for buying a car? Great Americans for buying a car? LMAO! You all there?

I own four GM products, I wouldn't buy a VOLT because it is not what I want, and government shouldn't subsidize a car. When I buy a car, I don't brag about it, like I a hero or a saint for buying it. 

You north and south conspiracy theory crap is very funny and bizarre. 

The last Chrysler, one of the big three was made up north, in Canada. Idiot!

So all your theories about the right is all BS, please don't smoke meth before posting.

What car do you drive and why do so many liberals buy Lexus, BMW and other foreign cars?


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## Foxfyre

We have no aversion to American made cars though it's pretty hard to find one that is manufactured solely within the USA borders these days.   Subaru has a manufacturing plant in Indiana and GM manufactures almost as many automobiles in China as it does here.  Both Ford and Chrysler use components and parts manufactured in several other countries in almost all of their automobiles, if not all.

My quarrel with GM is that I disapprove of the way it was bailed out and its continued cost to taxpayers.  I oppose the American government owning 33% of GM, which it does, and the American government and UAW owning the controlling stock in the company.  But all that is better discussed in a political or economics thread than here.

I like the concept of the Volt, but do not like restricting the options for people who don't want a Volt or can't afford a Volt.  But I would certainly buy a Ford if I needed a new car and they could offer me one with the safety, all weather features, and dependability of the Subaru at an attractive price. 

I would like a business climate in America where American auto companies could fully compete in quality, dependability, and price with foreign car makers.  We have already lost a huge portion of our manufacturing base because the government and unions refused to create such a climate.  I keep hoping sooner or later they will wake up.


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## viking331

I dont like the bailout either because the creditors should have gotten the stock not the union. But since they have it , they have to deliver .theres nothing like an employee or union owned company to   make sure they balance wages with profits and expenses.  As for the VOLT  . What a mess . The Prius  outsells them on price and perfomance . This is why they have such a big Government subsidy. BTW Is this the right forum to holler  FIRE  in a crowded VOLT?  Freedom of speech allows everyone driving one to  reserve  this right .  Viking331


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