# 5 Myths About Global Health Care



## Toro (Aug 24, 2009)

> 1. It's all socialized medicine out there.
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> Not so. Some countries, such as Britain, New Zealand and Cuba, do provide health care in government hospitals, with the government paying the bills. Others -- for instance, Canada and Taiwan -- rely on private-sector providers, paid for by government-run insurance. But many wealthy countries -- including Germany, the Netherlands, Japan and Switzerland -- provide universal coverage using private doctors, private hospitals and private insurance plans.  ...
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washingtonpost.com


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## veritas (Aug 24, 2009)

Very illuminating.


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## auditor0007 (Aug 25, 2009)

Toro said:


> > 1. It's all socialized medicine out there.
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> > Not so. Some countries, such as Britain, New Zealand and Cuba, do provide health care in government hospitals, with the government paying the bills. Others -- for instance, Canada and Taiwan -- rely on private-sector providers, paid for by government-run insurance. But many wealthy countries -- including Germany, the Netherlands, Japan and Switzerland -- provide universal coverage using private doctors, private hospitals and private insurance plans.  ...
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And that is the biggest problem.  To make matters worse, the insurance companies do not help to reduce costs.  Since I am now without insurance, I am paying as out of pocket for all of my medical care, which involves seeing doctors, having lab tests with follow up, getting ultrasounds, phlebotomies, and a number of other things.  What I have found is that by doing some legwork, I can get most things I need for a fraction of what the insurance companies pay.  As an example, I am now getting my phlebotomies for $75.  When I had insurance, the insurance company was paying the hospital between $375 and $400.  Lab tests I can purchase directly for less than half what the insurance company would pay.  

So my question is, if I can save so much money paying out of pocket, where the hell is all the rest of the money going that the insurance companies are paying out?  We are being bamboozled folks.

Think about this one; when my wife was battling leukemia, she needed a bone marrow transplant.  She was in quarantine for one month after the transplant.  Total cost; a little over $500,000.  That is over $16,000 per day.  I know that certain medical procedures are expensive, and that staying in the hospital is not cheap, but $16,000 per day?  Where is all of this money going?


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## Ravi (Aug 25, 2009)

From the article:


> In Japan, waiting times are so short that most patients don't bother to make an appointment. One Thursday morning in Tokyo, I called the prestigious orthopedic clinic at Keio University Hospital to schedule a consultation about my aching shoulder. "Why don't you just drop by?" the receptionist said. That same afternoon, I was in the surgeon's office. Dr. Nakamichi recommended an operation. "When could we do it?" I asked. The doctor checked his computer and said, "Tomorrow would be pretty difficult. Perhaps some day next week?"


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## Care4all (Aug 25, 2009)

It's sad that Republicans have spread so many rumors about these other countries and how terrible their systems are....little do they know, they are only passing along the insurance companies lies.

It's a damn shame our health care system is so filled will $300,000,000 million dollar salaries and shuffling of unpurposeful paperwork and spending a years time rejecting your claim....

Us Americans, deserve better.


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## dilloduck (Aug 25, 2009)

It's not fair to even have to pay for healthcare. It's necessary for humans to survive. Why should we have to pay to survive?


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## Care4all (Aug 25, 2009)

dilloduck said:


> It's not fair to even have to pay for healthcare. It's necessary for humans to survive. Why should we have to pay to survive?



IS ANYONE demanding something impossible like this, other than you?


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## dilloduck (Aug 25, 2009)

Care4all said:


> dilloduck said:
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Odd---I dont see a demand there.


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## Care4all (Aug 25, 2009)

dilloduck said:


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ooops!  you're right!


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## Toro (Aug 25, 2009)

I'm listening to a podcast of this show on global health care.  Its very interesting.

T.R. Reid: Looking Overseas For 'Healing Of America' : NPR

He notes that America is the only country in the world that allows for-profit insurance on basic services.

Why do we have to have for-profit insurance here?  There are credit unions and mutual life and home insurance in America.  He notes that the insurers in places like Germany and France and tremendously more efficient than in America.  He also stated that insurance companies sell non-profit health insurance alongside for-profit car insurance, life insurance, home insurance, etc.  It is used as a marketing tool to sell other products.


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## Bern80 (Aug 25, 2009)

Toro said:


> I'm listening to a podcast of this show on global health care.  Its very interesting.
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> T.R. Reid: Looking Overseas For 'Healing Of America' : NPR
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Sorry, Toro. You're usually pretty objective. But you'll have to forgive me for not swallowing hook, line and sinker the word of a leftist editorialist who provides no data to support what he says he 'saw'.

It also, misses a rather large point. What we're supposed to buy into in this piece is that now that the 'myth's' we were so worried about coming to our country have been dispelled, we won't have to worry about adopting the practices of other countries here. Here's the problem that I've said I don't know how many freakin times now. WE AREN'T OTHER COUNTRIES. Because there may not be the waiting we believe there to be (even though I've been told there is personally from many who know so) doesn't mean it won't be a problem here.  Last time I checked most docs don't have a lot of free time to sit around twittling their thumbs. 

This is not rocket science people. If cost goes down demand MUST go up. And unless supply goes up with it there WILL be longer waits. We just saw this on TV. What was suppossed to be a bleeding heart story about how the only option for the poor are these free clinics set up in stadiums, showed a microcosm of EXACTLY what will happen. Price plummetted and demand skyrocketed and they still had to turn people away.


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## Toro (Aug 25, 2009)

I have posted articles both for and against government healthcare, and for and against the American model.

I have lived in Canada, the United States and England, and have seen both the good and bad of all the systems.  I do not think that what is being presented is inaccurate.


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## Chris (Aug 25, 2009)

Toro said:


> I have posted articles both for and against government healthcare, and for and against the American model.
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> I have lived in Canada, the United States and England, and have seen both the good and bad of all the systems.  I do not think that what is being presented is inaccurate.



Of course it isn't inaccurate.

Unless you are a jingoistic idiot.


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## Care4all (Aug 26, 2009)

Amazing that only a handful have posted in this thread...

It is as though those that are SCARED TO DEATH of universal health care are scared to death of discussing the universal health care other countries have that they hate so much?


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## Ravi (Aug 26, 2009)

Care4all said:


> Amazing that only a handful have posted in this thread...
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> It is as though those that are SCARED TO DEATH of universal health care are scared to death of discussing the universal health care other countries have that they hate so much?


If we want anything the French have it means we are cowardly wusses.


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## Big Black Dog (Aug 26, 2009)

When the government gets around to "reinventing" our medical system, I hope they go back to the days when doctors came to your house to treat you and you could pay them with a bushel of onions or maybe some fresh fruit.  Set up a system for payment like to have your tonsils taken out it might cost you two fat hens or possibly a turkey.  What would be wrong with that?


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## Ravi (Aug 26, 2009)

Big Black Dog said:


> When the government gets around to "reinventing" our medical system, I hope they go back to the days when doctors came to your house to treat you and you could pay them with a bushel of onions or maybe some fresh fruit.  Set up a system for payment like to have your tonsils taken out it might cost you two fat hens or possibly a turkey.  What would be wrong with that?


Nothing, and it still happens in some poor communities.


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## Care4all (Aug 26, 2009)

Big Black Dog said:


> When the government gets around to "reinventing" our medical system, I hope they go back to the days when doctors came to your house to treat you and you could pay them with a bushel of onions or maybe some fresh fruit.  Set up a system for payment like to have your tonsils taken out it might cost you two fat hens or possibly a turkey.  What would be wrong with that?



nothing would be wrong with it, but the Insurance Companies would not get their trillions in profit off of us... 

and they line Congresses pockets with lobby money sooooo don't expect any decent kind of system like that to ever work with American Greed that surrounds us!  

care


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## Bern80 (Aug 26, 2009)

Care4all said:


> Amazing that only a handful have posted in this thread...
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> It is as though those that are SCARED TO DEATH of universal health care are scared to death of discussing the universal health care other countries have that they hate so much?



I'm not scared of it as all (see above). Simply because I'm smart enough to know showing what another country is doing is not evidence that it will work here. That's the shocker care. There are all kinds of people here saying this is what country x or y is doing and it's working just great for them. When in almost every case they're are ignoring the bad parts, like while Frances model is heald up, the fact that it is losing money by the millions gets swept under the rug. Further, those they do point to county x or y has having a good system have yet to take the next step. Being showing some evidence that if applied here it will actually work.


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## cunclusion (Aug 26, 2009)

This is the type of information that should be out there and then let people come up with their own opinion based on truth.


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## Chris (Aug 26, 2009)

cunclusion said:


> This is the type of information that should be out there and then let people come up with their own opinion based on truth.



That and the truth that healthcare corporations donated $3.4 BILLION DOLLARS to Congress in the last decade.

Obama is trying to take back the system for the people, but the Republicans, the Blue Dog Democrats, and the right wing media is trying to keep it in the hands of the greedheads.


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## Bern80 (Aug 26, 2009)

Chris said:


> cunclusion said:
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You can't handle the truth. Sorry to sound cliche, but it's the....ah....truth.  The TRUTH is there is almost no one, left side of the aisle or right, who doesn't want to fix the system, reduce costs, get everyone covered, etc.

The TRUTH is anyone who doesn't have their head lodged up Obama's ass like you do, can see his plan has little chance of accomplishing any of those things.


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## Care4all (Aug 26, 2009)

Bern80 said:


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i do not disagree with you....i do not think any one health care system out there from these other countries would fit us like a glove.

But I do think that we are smart enough to figure out thru in depth analysis and real life test areas what is truly good reform that does benefit all of our individual citizens (and not necessarily only what benefits the corporations), if only both sides could throw out all that they believe due to partisanship, out with the bath water and start from square one!

Being that our gvt pays or shares in the cost of the majority of American's health care, if nothing is done, it will bankrupt us....forget the recession and bailouts, medicare is the scary one!  

care


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## Toro (Aug 26, 2009)

Here is a question.

Why should health insurance companies be for-profit?  Why not non-profit?

Mutual insurance companies have a long history in this country, whether it is life insurance or home insurance.  Credit unions are vibrant.  These companies are run for the benefits of the members, not the shareholders.  

There is a fundamental tension between insurance companies answering to shareholders and the people they insure.  There is no tension between mutual insurers and its members.  First and foremost, they serve their members where as for-profit companies first and foremost serve shareholders.


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## ScreamingEagle (Aug 26, 2009)

Toro said:


> > 1. It's all socialized medicine out there.
> >
> > Not so. Some countries, such as Britain, New Zealand and Cuba, do provide health care in government hospitals, with the government paying the bills. Others -- for instance, Canada and Taiwan -- rely on private-sector providers, paid for by government-run insurance. But many wealthy countries -- including Germany, the Netherlands, Japan and Switzerland -- provide universal coverage using private doctors, private hospitals and private insurance plans.  ...
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_Global_ health care?  .....perhaps that is another issue....

In any case....you make some good points....not all government programs are as horrible as...say... Britain's socialized medicine plan....

Germany (followed by Switzerland) is probably the best government plan out there today and it is also the oldest.  Their system is a mixture of public and private.  Germans are very efficient.......Germany only pays about 10% of its GDP for healthcare while the U.S. pays about 14% of its GDP.   The govt. provides a pool for the hundreds of state regulated plans.  Everyone must pay 14% of their gross income for health insurance (employers pay half of that).  Other funds come from income taxes, funds derived from private insurance, and out of pocket payments.  About 50 million of the 80 million German population belong to the government health plan.  The self-employed must buy private insurance and those making 4k or more can opt out and buy private insurance.  About half the hospitals are public and about half are private.

To keep costs down the German govt. is doing things like freezing wages on hospital workers.  Among other problems they lack enough screening facilities like for detecting breast cancer, etc. 

Also it has become like a "two-class system" where the rich can buy private comprehensive health care while the vast majority participate in the government program and must make do with basic health care.

It seems to me that private health care underlies all the "good" govenment programs.  It would almost be impossible for Americans to adopt a streamlined government system like the Germans....and besides we don't want to.....so why don't we Americans just improve our private health care system instead of adopting some sort of bastardized socialized care plan like Obama's?


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## Toro (Aug 26, 2009)

One thing other countries do not have are the insane tort laws.  Removing the threat of a lawsuit would probably decrease healthcare costs substantially.


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## Bern80 (Aug 26, 2009)

Toro said:


> Here is a question.
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> Why should health insurance companies be for-profit?  Why not non-profit?
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I am inclined to not have a problem with that. May have to think about it a bit more.


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## ScreamingEagle (Aug 26, 2009)

Toro said:


> One thing other countries do not have are the insane tort laws.  Removing the threat of a lawsuit would probably decrease healthcare costs substantially.



Absolutely.

Another thing that needs to be done is allow cross-border insurance.   Why should we be tied to just one group of doctors?


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## Contumacious (Aug 26, 2009)

Care4all said:


> Amazing that only a handful have posted in this thread...
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> It is as though those that are SCARED TO DEATH of universal health care are scared to death of discussing the universal health care other countries have that they hate so much?



Canada, France and the UK offer extremely bad healthcare and  each of those countries system is going bankrupt.

Let me remind you that the federal government has NO CONSTITUTIONAL AUTHORITY to be in the healthcare business and it is precisely because of government involvement that healthcare in this country is so expensive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


.


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## Care4all (Aug 26, 2009)

Contumacious said:


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They have EVERY REASON to be involved in the health care of our citizens, without a healthy and educated citizenry, our democracy fails....

It is more constitutional for our government to legislate, makining our health care system better than it is for them to pay for a war that was never declared by congress, or for the trillion dollars in stimulus just handed to the financial industry that was responsible for bring America to its knees financially....or for congress to legislate new bankruptcy laws heavily weighted to benefit the banking industry over the citizen themselves, and quite a number of other things that I am certain you could help me add to this list of mine on what seems unconstitutional....

How well of a citizenry can be argued under the general welfare clause....and under the safety of this country as well....47.5 million without healthcare for a year could be very dangerous to all of us if any kind of serious plague reached and spread in the united states, such as the swine flu, or bird flu or small pox again....we as a country have involved our government with our health care needs over and over again, since our inception almost, with mandatory vaccinations, child immunizations that are mandatory, Veterans health care, Military health care, retired military and gvt employee health care, congress's health care, the healthcare with Children with SCHIPS, paying for a nurse in all schools for health care of the students, funding low income or free clinics,  MEDICARE and MEDICAID....gosh, what have I missed?  Oh yeah, they give tax credits to employer's contributing to their employee's health care insurance!

Well, anyway, I hope you get my drift....

I also do not believe the government can run hospitals or supply us with doctors, I do believe this should and must, stay in the PRIVATE SECTOR...but I do not believe it is out of the constitutional realm of power of congress, to develop a system that works for all Americans by reducing its costs.

Care


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## Bern80 (Aug 26, 2009)

Care4all said:


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No it really can't be argued that way Care. This was a topic on here some time ago. You are referring to to Article I, Section 8. Delinieating what the Fed can do.  The first phrase does mention 'promote the general welfare'.  Now come on care, you have to be intelliectually honest enough to admit that in terms of restricting the power of government, which was the founders intent such a phrase could be used to justify damn near anything. that's why if you read Section 8 a little further you will notice that the list of what government can do gets quite specific. Madison in Federalist 41 delineates why it was so specific so that it be understood if it is not there the Fed can't do it.


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## Contumacious (Aug 26, 2009)

Care4all said:


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You are confusing the Nazi Party Platform with our Constitution:


Nazi Party Platform


21. The State must raise the level of national health by means of mother-and-child care, the banning of juvenile labor, achievement of physical fitness through legislation for compulsory gymnastics and sports, and maximum support for all organizations providing physical training for young people.


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## Mad Scientist (Aug 26, 2009)

Ravi said:


> From the article:
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My ex-wife is a Nurse in Japan. She is also part of a board that is looking into cutting the cost of National Health Care which is *bankrupting the nation*. Can you uess where they're looking to and consulting with?:

America.

My ex says that since people can come in anytime they want and for just about any minor ailment they have they get many people who just come in because they are lonely and need someone to talk to. There's nothing wrong with them.

Sidebar: My ex used to come home all the time with crazy stories about people she had cared for in the Hospital. One guy used to come in at least once a month because his anus was bleeding. When asked by the Doctors what he was doing that was causing this he finally replied that he was jamming chop sticks up his ass! Not the shiny laquered ones  but the disposable plain wooden ones. Apparently they were splintering and causing the damage!

I knew you guys would like that one!


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## Care4all (Aug 26, 2009)

Mad Scientist said:


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it is NOT bankrupting their nation?

the people pay for their own health insurance, splitting it with employers and the policy is much less than half the price of ours for a family...everyone is REQUIRED to buy it, those who can't afford it are helped.  there are absolutely no restrictions, all the healthcare anyone wants, can see any doctor or specialist in any and every hospital...they visit the doctor 3 times more a year than we do on average in the usa...  no limits on any medical diagnostics or hospital care either and only 1 day at most, wait times.

they have private non profit insurance companies for all.

the problem with their system is the reimbursement rate is TOO LOW for the private hospitals (50% hurting financially) and private doctor's businesses...which is regulated by their gvt and which can be also be corrected.

Japanese Pay Less for More Health Care : NPR


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## jreeves (Aug 26, 2009)

Chris said:


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Yep just like his deal with Big Pharm...


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## Chris (Aug 26, 2009)

Japan is going bankrupt?

Who knew?


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## jreeves (Aug 26, 2009)

Care4all said:


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Can I ask what is wrong with HR 3400 why the need to take over the private sector with the public option?


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## Chris (Aug 26, 2009)

jreeves said:


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So now Obama is too right wing for you?

Who knew you were a progressive?


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## jreeves (Aug 26, 2009)

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Hmm...I guess if you call selling out constituents for an egotistical purpose, right wing then yes he is.


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## Care4all (Aug 26, 2009)

jreeves said:


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i think the for profit insurance companies are in cahoots together in price fixing...

i think handing the insurance companies an additional 20-45 million customers by making insurance mandatory as this bill, does nothing but hand a gold lined gift horse to the private insurance companies without ever having to compete to get them...this will keep costs higher, not lower them as it would if these companies really had to compete to get them vs it mandatory that the insurance company gets them as customers.

i think this reform is not forcing anyone in to the public option, i read the bill regarding such...the public option and or a non profit coop would bring true competition and choice for the consumer buying their mandatory insurance....otherwise, this bill without at least 1 of these options, is a sham, and gifthorse to a private industry, as said....and imo.

care


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## Mad Scientist (Aug 26, 2009)

Care4all said:


> the problem with their system is the reimbursement rate is TOO LOW for the private hospitals (50% hurting financially) and private doctor's businesses...which is regulated by their gvt and which can be also be corrected.
> Japanese Pay Less for More Health Care : NPR


You see? The Gubamint has decided how much is to be given out for certain procedures. So Doctors, the smart ones at least, will steer patients to procedures they will get reimbursed more for. Wasn't Obama complaining about that last week? Doctors doing unnecessary surgery just for the money? Why yes he was.

Your link states that the Japanese pay less for their health care but neglects to mention that Japan has less than half the population of the US, about 127 million. We have approximately 300 million not counting the illegals.

The Japanese also have another BIG problem. They are the only country in the world that the population declined. An average life expectacy of 81 years combined with low birth rates is forcing Japan to cut health care.

SO, the Japanese are doing the only thing they can which is to cut costs.

The Japanese have *very* high tax rates as well, something that wasn't mentioned in the article either.


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## jreeves (Aug 26, 2009)

Care4all said:


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So the government setting all the terms and parameters as to how health care is administered, isn't an unfair advantage?


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## Care4all (Aug 26, 2009)

jreeves said:


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if the coop policy or public policy are allowed in this bill they will have to meet all the rules set in this bill and with the private sector insurance companies agreement already, so i guess i don't know what you mean JR?


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## jreeves (Aug 26, 2009)

Care4all said:


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A government czar will dictate which health plans are "qualified health plans", they will dictate what they have to cover and what they don't have to cover under HR 3200. You don't see that as an unfair advantage?


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## veritas (Aug 26, 2009)

> A government czar will dictate which health plans are "qualified health plans", they will dictate what they have to cover and what they don't have to cover under HR 3200. You don't see that as an unfair advantage?



No. I have asked before, if there was a _not for profit_ type of insurance would you support it? Would you like the chance to opt into a government program instead of a private _for profit _one? What about a private sector non-profit?

Most small businesses operate as non-profits for the sake of this argument. They pay themselves a salary and usually plow profit back into operations. Most small businesses are not publicly traded. Most small businesses do what they can to keep employment steady and/or rising and meet their obligations. They don't have to constantly gobble more market share or shave labor to pay for investors.


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## jreeves (Aug 26, 2009)

veritas said:


> > A government czar will dictate which health plans are "qualified health plans", they will dictate what they have to cover and what they don't have to cover under HR 3200. You don't see that as an unfair advantage?
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Are these non-profits able to dictate to the rest of market, how they are able to run their businesses? No, therefore comparison fail


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## veritas (Aug 26, 2009)

jreeves said:


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The non-profits would operate without a profit, so they could lower the price of what they offer. How is that different from the public option?


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## Care4all (Aug 26, 2009)

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i think they should cover EVERYTHING, just like the private insurance companies in japan...this does not give non profits an advantage or the public option an advantage, it costs money to offer these things and both private and public and coop policies ALL would have to figure out how to cover it with what they take in in revenues....no one has an 'advantage'


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## jreeves (Aug 26, 2009)

Care4all said:


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So the federal government currently employs this logic correct? Great we don't have a huge deficit....shew I was worried over nothing...

I mean the USPS never operates with losses...


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## Chris (Aug 26, 2009)

jreeves said:


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That's because it's a non profit.


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## Care4all (Aug 26, 2009)

jreeves said:


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i have no idea who you are registering a complaint for jr?  the private insurance companies agreed to the terms in this health care insurance reform bill that pertain to them and what things needed to be covered, including the czar part....?

who are you arguing to protect?


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## Contumacious (Aug 26, 2009)

Care4all said:


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Healthcare in Japan:


Japan's suicide rate is high compared to the USA; the Yomiuri Shinbun reported in June 2008 t*hat more than 30,000 people had killed themselves every year for the past decade. A study published in 2006, suspects that health problems were a factor in almost 50 percent of the Japan's suicides in 2006.*[4] However the Yomiuri's 2007 figures show 274 school children were among those who took their own lives.


More than 14,000 emergency patients were rejected at least three times by Japanese hospitals before getting treatment in 2007, according to the latest government survey. In the worst case, a woman in her 70s with a breathing problem was rejected 49 times in Tokyo.[5]


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## veritas (Aug 26, 2009)

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Agreed? Ha! If there is no public option that's off the table in a trice.


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## veritas (Aug 26, 2009)

> Japan's suicide rate is high compared to the USA; the Yomiuri Shinbun reported in June 2008 that more than 30,000 people had killed themselves every year for the past decade. A study published in 2006, suspects that health problems were a factor in almost 50 percent of the Japan's suicides in 2006.[4] However the Yomiuri's 2007 figures show 274 school children were among those who took their own lives.




That's because they eat fish and rice every day and have weird mental issues. You have watched anime, haven't you? Weird.


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## Toro (Aug 26, 2009)

Japan is also a highly conformist society, where honor is extremely important.  I'm sure that has something to do with the high suicide rate.


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## Care4all (Aug 26, 2009)

veritas said:


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They agreed to everything regarding health care coverage in bill.

They are fighting TOOTH AND NAIL the public and or nonprofit private coop option.


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## Care4all (Aug 26, 2009)

Contumacious said:


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The emergency room statistics is concerning, the link that wiki provided as their source for that does not work anymore so i could not get the details...

The mental issues do have to do with honor as toro mentioned....

mental health

care


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## jreeves (Aug 26, 2009)

Care4all said:


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Umm...people who have benefits now or need medical treatment.


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## Zona (Aug 26, 2009)

The average fox viewer honestly believes there were WMD's and Iraq had something to do with 9/11.  Fair and balanced.


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## Chris (Aug 26, 2009)

Zona said:


> The average fox viewer honestly believes there were WMD's and Iraq had something to do with 9/11.  Fair and balanced.



It really is unbelievable how deluded these people are.

It's like the Pat Robertson crowd.


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## jreeves (Aug 26, 2009)

Zona said:


> The average fox viewer honestly believes there were WMD's and Iraq had something to do with 9/11.  Fair and balanced.



I guess the facts became too complicated for you to debate, so you digress into a tirade about Fox News. Don't worry their are some people on both sides who can grasp the issues, just leave it to them.


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## veritas (Aug 26, 2009)

more like the Jim Jones crowd to me........


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## Chris (Aug 26, 2009)

jreeves said:


> Zona said:
> 
> 
> > The average fox viewer honestly believes there were WMD's and Iraq had something to do with 9/11.  Fair and balanced.
> ...



Here are the facts....

Every other industrialized nation has national health insurance, and they pay HALF per capita what we pay for healthcare.

Why?

Because they don't have to pay insurance company marketing, profit, and admin costs, Big Pharma profits, and liability lawyers.


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## jreeves (Aug 26, 2009)

Chris said:


> jreeves said:
> 
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> > Zona said:
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Here's some facts for the brain dead such as yourself, America has one of the highest rates of obesity which leads to disease. Big pharma profits would not disappear under HR 3200, just refer to Obama's deal in which he sold out the American people. All the rest of your post is covered under the Republican option HR 3400 without government dictating to the American people what their health care coverage should be.


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## Chris (Aug 26, 2009)

jreeves said:


> Chris said:
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Congress received $3.4 BILLION DOLLARS in donations from healthcare corporations in the last decade. 

Where do you think that money came from?

Our insurance premiums.


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## jreeves (Aug 26, 2009)

Chris said:


> jreeves said:
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You mean the Democratic Congress, the same members trying to push this government take over health care bill on the American people? I agree, I wouldn't trust them either, that's the reason I read the bill for myself.


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## veritas (Aug 26, 2009)

jreeves said:


> Chris said:
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I highly doubt that based on your posts.


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## jreeves (Aug 26, 2009)

veritas said:


> jreeves said:
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Wow, how surprising another post by you that is devoid of thought.


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## veritas (Aug 26, 2009)

It's not devoid of thought at all. You just don't like what I am thinking.


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## jreeves (Aug 26, 2009)

veritas said:


> It's not devoid of thought at all. You just don't like what I am thinking.



Another post that a single cell organism could out think you on....


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## Care4all (Aug 26, 2009)

jreeves is right about needing to become a healthier citizenry, learning how to change our lifestyles...eating healthier and exercise more...this will keep health care costs down, or it should keep health care costs down because we should be healthier, on the whole.


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## Chris (Aug 26, 2009)

Care4all said:


> jreeves is right about needing to become a healthier citizenry, learning how to change our lifestyles...eating healthier and exercise more...this will keep health care costs down, or it should keep health care costs down because we should be healthier, on the whole.



But when the Democrats suggested paying for healthcare by putting a tax on sugar laden soft drinks, the Republicans howled like stuck pigs.


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## jreeves (Aug 26, 2009)

Chris said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > jreeves is right about needing to become a healthier citizenry, learning how to change our lifestyles...eating healthier and exercise more...this will keep health care costs down, or it should keep health care costs down because we should be healthier, on the whole.
> ...



That's because the tax restricts freedoms whereas education and wellness programs would go a long way to helping change lifestyles.


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## elvis (Aug 26, 2009)

jreeves said:


> Chris said:
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chrissy stalin doesn't like freedoms.


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## Chris (Aug 26, 2009)

jreeves said:


> Chris said:
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That's the funniest post ever.

A tax on soft drinks is a great idea. Studies have shown that soft drinks are a big reason for American obesity.


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## elvis (Aug 26, 2009)

Chris said:


> jreeves said:
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It's my body, Ill do what I want with it.  your side should understand that.


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## jreeves (Aug 26, 2009)

Chris said:


> jreeves said:
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I never said that soft drinks weren't a big reason for American obesity. I stated the tax restricted freedoms, if drinking soft drinks is done in moderation it will not cause obesity.


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## Chris (Aug 27, 2009)

jreeves said:


> Chris said:
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"Freedoms?"

That is so pathetic it is embarassing.


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## jreeves (Aug 27, 2009)

Chris said:


> jreeves said:
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How so, you don't think freedoms are important? Big surprise...


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## necritan (Aug 27, 2009)

dilloduck said:


> It's not fair to even have to pay for healthcare. It's necessary for humans to survive. Why should we have to pay to survive?



Yeah!!!  And free food too...!!! And I want free gasoline to fuel the delivery truck that brings the free food to me!!!! And I want free electricity to cook that free fuckin food too...!!!


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## Ravi (Aug 27, 2009)

Care4all said:


> jreeves is right about needing to become a healthier citizenry, learning how to change our lifestyles...eating healthier and exercise more...this will keep health care costs down, or it should keep health care costs down because we should be healthier, on the whole.


Why does our country suffer from the "disease" of obesity? Perhaps the stress of worrying about providing health care for our children?


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## ba1614 (Aug 27, 2009)

necritan said:


> dilloduck said:
> 
> 
> > It's not fair to even have to pay for healthcare. It's necessary for humans to survive. Why should we have to pay to survive?
> ...



Don't forget the free home too man!!
 Wooohooo what a country!!


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## ba1614 (Aug 27, 2009)

Ravi said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > jreeves is right about needing to become a healthier citizenry, learning how to change our lifestyles...eating healthier and exercise more...this will keep health care costs down, or it should keep health care costs down because we should be healthier, on the whole.
> ...



More than likely it's because people are less active, and they're stuffing their face with processed foods, and lots of it.
 Throw in less and less personal responsibility and there you have, I'd wager, a big percentage of the fat.

 I'm not convinced that taxing bad foods/drinks will persuade people who are either to lazy, or claim they're too busy, to take the 1/2hr->hr it takes to prepare a decent meal.


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## Zona (Aug 27, 2009)

Care4all said:


> jreeves is right about needing to become a healthier citizenry, learning how to change our lifestyles...eating healthier and exercise more...this will keep health care costs down, or it should keep health care costs down because we should be healthier, on the whole.



True, but what does this have to do with a car accident and not having insurance?

What does this have to do with Breast cancer or TB?

What does this have to do with a guy who lost his job, health care and has two children?

What does this have to do with so many other health issues that have nothing to do with diet, Mr. Health foods ceo.  

Eating well and exercising is important, but it is not everything.  We as Americans are pigs, but that has nothing to do with breaking you leg in an accident.

Agree?


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## Zona (Aug 27, 2009)

elvis3577 said:


> Chris said:
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We do unerstand, but over 40 million people want the government to help them get affordable health care.


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## elvis (Aug 27, 2009)

Zona said:


> elvis3577 said:
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which has nothing to do with what I said, and again, many of those 40 million are illegal aliens.


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## auditor0007 (Aug 27, 2009)

Ravi said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > jreeves is right about needing to become a healthier citizenry, learning how to change our lifestyles...eating healthier and exercise more...this will keep health care costs down, or it should keep health care costs down because we should be healthier, on the whole.
> ...



It's very simple.  We've become lazy and uneducated.  Our education system sucks, and we have one generation after another showing our kids how not to do things right.  I'm not going to bother looking for any supporting documents on this, but I would venture to say that the most obese people are the poorest and least educated, while the healthiest are the wealthiest and most educated.  Obviously, there are exeptions, but I do think you can generalize on this and have that be a fairly accurate statement.


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## Ravi (Aug 27, 2009)

auditor0007 said:


> Ravi said:
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A lot of it comes from being corn fed. A huge part of our diet comes from animals that are force fed corn. Corporate America is to a large extent at fault.


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## GHook93 (Aug 27, 2009)

Ravi said:


> From the article:
> 
> 
> > In Japan, waiting times are so short that most patients don't bother to make an appointment. One Thursday morning in Tokyo, I called the prestigious orthopedic clinic at Keio University Hospital to schedule a consultation about my aching shoulder. "Why don't you just drop by?" the receptionist said. That same afternoon, I was in the surgeon's office. Dr. Nakamichi recommended an operation. "When could we do it?" I asked. The doctor checked his computer and said, "Tomorrow would be pretty difficult. Perhaps some day next week?"



OMG, Japan! One of the most densely populated countries in the WORLD! A small country to houses 137 mil people! I bet the Japanese wait longer in traffic than in line for the doctor.


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## Care4all (Aug 27, 2009)

auditor0007 said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
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i'm not so certain it is that simple, though it should be....that would be the simplest, logical way to explain it....but i honestly believe, there is so much more to it....and maybe it is just me, i have one of those personalities that just wants to analyze things down to the nitty gritty before coming to any certain theory on it...

-is it because we have killed gym in schools as an every day event?
-is it because schools have limited or cut off playground recess due to kids being injured or fear of lawsuits?
-is it because sports are the first to go, especially women's sports for a while?
-is it because we do not as a society, put playing outside for kids high up on the latter anymore?  Due to fear of pedophiles or kidnappers or crime in general?  Or due to moms working and wanting kids safely in the house till they get home?
-is it because we are inundated with fast food joints from here to kingdom come?  And restaurants lure you in by their, ''bigger than the next guy's portions''? 
-is it because now most all mothers work, as well as tend to the family and there is not enough time for the truly home cooked meal every night? so it is, semi home made with processed products with fattening ingredients?
-is it because we fatten our cattle with fattening food?  Or give them hormones? fascinated with cheese too much or fried foods too much or plain ole sugary or fattening filled junk?
-today there is computers/gaming but yesteryear it was tv's that got the fascination, so there should not be that much of a difference in child obesity from that alone?
-are there more poor people today, malnutritioned?  
-is it the behavior modification or mood drugs we are giving our children and adults?

and those are the questions that came to mind without even truly thinking about it or truly picking the key areas that are musts in order to truly come to any kind of complete analysis of the ''why... we are more obese today?''.

(you should see the extensive research i do, when just picking a Vacation spot!!!  )

care


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## veritas (Aug 27, 2009)

I agree with Ravi, it's all this corn refuse, high fructose corn syrup and subsidies and other BS.

And not enough Brussels Sprouts.


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## Chris (Aug 27, 2009)

jreeves said:


> Chris said:
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Adding 3 cents to the cost of a drink with 15 teaspoons of sugar in it will not take away your "freedom."

Getting fat and dying from drinking too much soda might, however.


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## elvis (Aug 27, 2009)

Chris said:


> jreeves said:
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and you believe it would only be three cents.


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## Maple (Aug 27, 2009)

dilloduck said:


> It's not fair to even have to pay for healthcare. It's necessary for humans to survive. Why should we have to pay to survive?



You do know that those doctors and nurses that provide you with care have to put food on their tables too, it's called a job.


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## Maple (Aug 27, 2009)

Text of H.R.3400 as Introduced in House: To provide for incentives to encourage health insurance coverage, and... OpenCongress


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## Chris (Aug 27, 2009)

The Republican plan?

More money for their corporate masters!


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## veritas (Aug 27, 2009)

Chris said:


> The Republican plan?
> 
> More money for their corporate masters!




More tax breaks for people who can already buy insurance.........


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## Chris (Aug 27, 2009)

veritas said:


> Chris said:
> 
> 
> > The Republican plan?
> ...



Really the Republicans are so fucking evil!


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## veritas (Aug 27, 2009)

That loon Michelle Bachman signed it so you know it's wacked.


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## jreeves (Aug 28, 2009)

Ravi said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > jreeves is right about needing to become a healthier citizenry, learning how to change our lifestyles...eating healthier and exercise more...this will keep health care costs down, or it should keep health care costs down because we should be healthier, on the whole.
> ...



No its the stress of trying to figure out how to pay this tax and that tax....Every time you turn around your getting taxed, on your phone bill, at the grocery store, out of your paycheck...etc....

This massive health care bill will only add to the tax burden.


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## jreeves (Aug 28, 2009)

veritas said:


> That loon Michelle Bachman signed it so you know it's wacked.



Liar, it provides a way of providing insurance for the uninsured and to bring down health care costs. As well as, eliminating the pre-existing conditions clause....of course you would know that if you could read....


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## jreeves (Aug 28, 2009)

elvis3577 said:


> Chris said:
> 
> 
> > jreeves said:
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If you want the government to tell you what to do that is fine. I don't need the government forcing me to do things by punitive taxes. Like I said, soft drinks drunk in moderation is ok.


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## jreeves (Aug 28, 2009)

veritas said:


> Chris said:
> 
> 
> > The Republican plan?
> ...



That's the reason it has a section for low income people, moonbat.


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## Chris (Aug 28, 2009)

jreeves said:


> veritas said:
> 
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How do you pay an insurance premium when you are dying of cancer, wing nut?


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## jreeves (Aug 29, 2009)

Chris said:


> jreeves said:
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> > veritas said:
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I guess that's the reason the US has one one of the highest cancer survival rates. All of those people that can't pay premiums, numbnuts


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## Bullypulpit (Aug 29, 2009)

Care4all said:


> It's sad that Republicans have spread so many rumors about these other countries and how terrible their systems are....little do they know, they are only passing along the insurance companies lies.
> 
> It's a damn shame our health care system is so filled will $300,000,000 million dollar salaries and shuffling of unpurposeful paperwork and spending a years time rejecting your claim....
> 
> Us Americans, deserve better.



They're not rumors...they're outright lies. It's all they have in their rhetorical arsenal.


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## jreeves (Aug 29, 2009)

Bullypulpit said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > It's sad that Republicans have spread so many rumors about these other countries and how terrible their systems are....little do they know, they are only passing along the insurance companies lies.
> ...



The fact is health care reform doesn't have to include a government take over of health care choices.


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## Chris (Aug 29, 2009)

jreeves said:


> Bullypulpit said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...



"Government take over of health care" is THE Republican talking point. It is also bullshit. With national health insurance doctors and patients would still make decisions about care and doctors would still work for themselves. I am really ashamed of you for trying to pass this lie of yours off as the truth. It won't work.

Having national health insurance is a great thing. 

That is why none of the Republicans in Congress is talking about abolishing Medicare.

Because Medicare is national health insurance.


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## Meister (Aug 29, 2009)

Chris said:


> jreeves said:
> 
> 
> > Bullypulpit said:
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the only reason you say this is because your too damn cheap to buy your own health insurance.  Your a leach, Chris.

Medicare is going bankrupt, that's small potatoes compared to the boondoggle coming down the pipeline.


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