# Obama has a big problem



## ScreamingEagle (Mar 13, 2008)

with his close advisor and pastor of 20 years...



> March 13, 2008
> 
> *Obama's Pastor:  God Damn America, US to Blame for 9/11 *
> 
> ...





> *Obama's Pastor:  "Hillary ain't never been called a ******."*
> 
> March 13, 2008
> 
> ...


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## Dr Grump (Mar 13, 2008)

More smearing by the right. Why am I not surprised. 

I think the right can sling as much mud as they like, but all I have to say is three words: George Bush Junior.

Nuff said..


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## LordBrownTrout (Mar 13, 2008)

Dr Grump said:


> More smearing by the right. Why am I not surprised.
> 
> I think the right can sling as much mud as they like, but all I have to say is three words: George Bush Junior.
> 
> Nuff said..




These aren't smear tactics. These are disturbing facts.  A smear tactic is lobbing a terd at your foe that is false. Jeremiah Wright is a racist with deep ties to Louis Farrakhan and Obama. This could fatally wound Obama, politically speaking, and hand the nomination to Clinton.  Imagine this guy inaugurating Obama into the presidency. I really do fear for the welfare of this country.


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## JimH52 (Mar 13, 2008)

Grump, you don't think the GOP will use this if Obama is the nominee?  Fear is one of the great allies of the GOP.  It worked for w bush in 2004.


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## LordBrownTrout (Mar 13, 2008)

JimH52 said:


> Grump, you don't think the GOP will use this if Obama is the nominee?  Fear is one of the great allies of the GOP.  It worked for w bush in 2004.



No sir, this is racism to it's deep evil core and is what will rip this country to shreds.


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## jreeves (Mar 13, 2008)

JimH52 said:


> Grump, you don't think the GOP will use this if Obama is the nominee?  Fear is one of the great allies of the GOP.  It worked for w bush in 2004.



Yeah sure, we should openly welcome a person who admitted he disliked whites in his first book.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,337308,00.html

Barack Obama's controversial pastor and the church he's served for 36 years may be in hot water over statements he has made from the pulpit in support of the Illinois senator's run for the White House.

The Rev. Jeremiah Wright Jr. preaches that he follows the righteous path, but when it comes to the federal tax law, his Trinity United Church of Christ may have crossed the line.

Wright praised Obama from the pulpit on Jan. 13 in what was billed as his final sermon at the Chicago church.

"There is a man here who can take this country in a new direction," Wright said during his sermon, according to recordings obtained by FOX News.

It was not the first time Wright appeared to endorse Obama, who was baptized at Trinity United, has been an active member of the church for two decades and receives spiritual mentorship from Wright.

The title of Obama's second book, "The Audacity of Hope," was taken from a sermon by Wright.

During a Christmas sermon, Wright tried to compare Obama's upbringing to Jesus at the hands of the Romans.

"Barack knows what it means living in a country and a culture that is controlled by rich white people," Wright said. "Hillary would never know that.

RelatedStories
As Obama Talks Religion, Questions Surround His Controversial Pastor "Hillary ain't never been called a ******. Hillary has never had a people defined as a non-person."

In his Jan. 13 sermon, Wright said:

"Hillary is married to Bill, and Bill has been good to us. No he ain't! Bill did us, just like he did Monica Lewinsky. He was riding dirty."

FOX News purchased the video recordings of Wright's sermons from the church.

"It's pretty clear an indirect endorsement of Barack Obama  that's not something you're supposed to do according to the tax code," said Andrew Walsh, a professor at Trinity College who specializes in religion in politics.

The tax code bans churches from participating in or intervening in a political campaign. Violations can result in the loss of a church's tax exempt status.

The Obama campaign issued a statement in response to FOX News' inquiries about Wright's sermons.

"Senator Obama has said repeatedly that personal attacks such as this have no place in this campaign or our politics, whether they're offered from a platform at a rally or the pulpit of a church," said Bill Burton, a campaign spokesman.

"Senator Obama does not think of the pastor of his church in political terms. Like a member of his family, there are things he says with which Senator Obama deeply disagrees."


Obama defended Wright's longtime activism for blacks in America last week at a campaign event in Ohio.

"Jeremiah Wright ... has said some things that are considered controversial because he's considered that part of his social gospel," Obama said.

The Internal Revenue Service wouldn't comment on whether it is looking into potential tax violations at Trinity United. The church declined to make Wright available for an interview.

Congregant Dwight Hopkins, a professor of Theology at the University of Chicago, said there is no basis for the IRS to go after the church.

"From the church side they will say it's theology," said. "If it wasn't a senator running for president and it wasn't his church, then I think we could say all kinds of things."

The IRS has written dozens of letters warning churches against political advocacy from the pulpit. Yet it has revoked a church's tax-exempt status only twice in the last half-century.

Walsh said it's not typical for the IRS to enforce the rules.

"There's a tension here between the desires of the religious leaders to say important things in the public marketplace and the IRS rules, and so most of the time, the IRS does not enforce these rules," Walsh said.

The public scrutiny of these sermons comes in the wake of last month's revelation by the head of the United Church of Christ that the IRS is investigation a speech Obama gave at the denomination's national conference last year in Connecticut.

In a certified letter, Marsha Ramirez, IRS director, EO Examinations, wrote:

"Our concerns are based on articles posted on several Web sites including the church's which state the United States Presidential Candidate Senator Barack Obama addressed nearly 10,000 church members gathered at the United Church of Christ's biennial General Synod at the Hartford Civic Center, on June 23, 2007. In addition, 40 Obama volunteers staffed campaign tables outside the center to promote his campaign."

The church and the Obama campaign have denied that any inappropriate political advocacy occurred during this speech.

Wright's sermons often address themes of white supremacy and black repression, and critics have called them racially divisive.

Some remarks attributed to Wright that have been posted on the Internet and cited in press accounts include:

Fact number one: Weve got more black men in prison than there are in college.

"Fact number two: Racism is how this country was founded and how this country is still run.

"We are deeply involved in the importing of drugs, the exporting of guns and the training of professional killers. ... We believe in white supremacy and black inferiority and believe it more than we believe in God. ... We conducted radiation experiments on our own people. ... We care nothing about human life if the ends justify the means.

"And ... And ... And! God! Has got! To be sick! Of this shit!"

Click here to hear an audio clip of the Rev. Jeremiah Wright Jr. WARNING: Contains offensive language.

Once Wright's remarks were widely publicized last year, Obama backed out of his plans for his pastor to speak at his Feb. 10 presidential announcement.

Obama met Wright after college while working with local churches in Chicago to tackle problems of drug abuse and unemployment in inner-city neighborhoods. Wright preached an Afrocentric theology that interpreted the Bible through shared suffering of African Americans.

For Obama, this experience was a spiritual turning point. He has written that he had been exposed to various faiths during his life but never formally adopted one until after meeting Wright.

Inside the thousands of churches across the city, I imagined the stories of ordinary black people merging with the stories of David and Goliath, Moses and Pharaoh, the Christians in the lions den, Ezekiels field of dry bones, he wrote in his memoir, "Dreams From My Father: A Story of Race and Inheritance."

Those stories  of survival, and freedom, and hope  became our story, my story.


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## Taomon (Mar 14, 2008)

ScreamingEagle said:


> with his close advisor and pastor of 20 years...



I watched the video of the pastor saying that Hillary does not know what it means to be called a ******. The man is right about everything he said. I am white and I have seen what white society does to people who are not rich, who are not privileged, who are not white, who are not in similar congregations.

The only thing wrong with what he said is if you are white and bigoted.


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## Ravi (Mar 14, 2008)

While I agree that some of the things he said are true, one of the sermons I read had him saying black people will never amount to anything and it's all white people's fault. This is basically the same meme the Republicans have been using, except they don't blame white people for black difficulties, they blame Democrats.

There's something seriously wrong with that attitude.


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## LordBrownTrout (Mar 14, 2008)

I can see the Farrakhan roots in this.  Yes, what he said is extremely racist and leaves one to wonder, after 20 years of Wright's spiritual advisement to Obama, how much of this inflammatory rhetoric does he actually believe?


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## ScreamingEagle (Mar 14, 2008)

LordBrownTrout said:


> I can see the Farrakhan roots in this.  Yes, what he said is extremely racist and leaves one to wonder, after 20 years of Wright's spiritual advisement to Obama, how much of this inflammatory rhetoric does he actually believe?



I don't wonder.  How is it that a Harvard-educated man chose this church and pastor?  And then stayed with it for 20 years?  He's not an idiot.  Frankly, I find it unbelievable that Obama does not share these ideas....otherwise any knowledeable person would have left this church and pastor the first time he whiffed the extremism.


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## LordBrownTrout (Mar 14, 2008)

ScreamingEagle said:


> I don't wonder.  How is it that a Harvard-educated man chose this church and pastor?  And then stayed with it for 20 years?  He's not an idiot.  Frankly, I find it unbelievable that Obama does not share these ideas....otherwise any knowledeable person would have left this church and pastor the first time he whiffed the extremism.



You've got an excellent point. Obama is a well educated man so it leads to, why stay at a church for 20 years receiving this liberation type theology that has deep revisions of world history that aren't true. Why stay at a church that impugns greatness on one of the most racist human beings on the planet, Farrakhan, is antisemitic, antiwhite, anticapitalism, essentially deeming his word as something that can bring about hope and change for America. Obama's book, Audacity of Hope was taken from one of Wrights speech's also.


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## JimH52 (Mar 14, 2008)

I am not arguing wether what he preaches is right or wrong.  I am arguing that the GOP will use fear to place a barrier between the white voter and Obama.  Perhaps not the "organized" GOP will stoop to that but they will find someone like the "swift boat" people to get their message out there.

I must say I am very uneasy about some of the statements and ideals surrounding Obama.  Not so much what he ways but what those around him have said.  I don't want to see 4 more years of bush2.  The Democrats need the strongest candidate possible going against McCain.

Just saying what I feel...


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## Detmurds (Mar 14, 2008)

The Audacity of Hope, Barack Obama's best selling book that was, he says, inspired by his pastor Jeremiah Wright Jr. of the Trinity United Church of Christ, bear little resemblance to each other.

And there is little doubt in my mind that Barack Obama had knowledge that his pastor was a racist sicko freak who blames 9/11 on America herself and claims our country produced AIDS to "kill black people". His excuse's are as pathetic and wrong as Jeremiah Wright himself. And the Trinity United Church of Christ makes the KKK look like a square dance. I call on Barack Hussien Obama to denounce this man and his racist "church".

From the Trinity United website:"We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism."

Can you imagine what would befall a white Presidential candidate if you substituted the word white for black in the above paragraph? If McCain's church was "Unashamedly White"? Clinton's church claimed," We are European people and remain true to our native land"?????

We have seen Obama throw his lapel pin away claiming the flag is not patriotic, refuse to salute our flag, promise to tax the people of this country into oblivion and attempt to provoke war with our allies, now we see this "deeply religious" man attends a church that preaches hatred to America. Specifically White America.


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## LordBrownTrout (Mar 14, 2008)

Detmurds said:


> The Audacity of Hope, Barack Obama's best selling book that was, he says, inspired by his pastor Jeremiah Wright Jr. of the Trinity United Church of Christ, bear little resemblance to each other.
> 
> And there is little doubt in my mind that Barack Obama had knowledge that his pastor was a racist sicko freak who blames 9/11 on America herself and claims our country produced AIDS to "kill black people". His excuse's are as pathetic and wrong as Jeremiah Wright himself. And the Trinity United Church of Christ makes the KKK look like a square dance. I call on Barack Hussien Obama to denounce this man and his racist "church".
> 
> ...



At this point Obama would have to jettison his pastor off to another galaxy and it still probably wouldn't be enough.


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## Detmurds (Mar 14, 2008)

You are right!  I mean he (Obama) has been sitting in that church listening to this guy for over 20 years for a reason!  He believes in Rev. Wright.  I have heard that Oprah goes to the same church but I have not been able to confirm it.  

Obama is a fake.

www.speakfreepolitics.com


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## jreeves (Mar 14, 2008)

Detmurds said:


> The Audacity of Hope, Barack Obama's best selling book that was, he says, inspired by his pastor Jeremiah Wright Jr. of the Trinity United Church of Christ, bear little resemblance to each other.
> 
> And there is little doubt in my mind that Barack Obama had knowledge that his pastor was a racist sicko freak who blames 9/11 on America herself and claims our country produced AIDS to "kill black people". His excuse's are as pathetic and wrong as Jeremiah Wright himself. And the Trinity United Church of Christ makes the KKK look like a square dance. I call on Barack Hussien Obama to denounce this man and his racist "church".
> 
> ...



If you read Obama's first book it sounds a lot like Dr. Wright,

http://www.examiner.com/a-536474~_Trapped_between_two_worlds_.html

There were enough of us on campus to constitute a tribe, and when it came to hanging out many of us chose to function like a tribe, staying close together, traveling in packs, he wrote. It remained necessary to prove which side you were on, to show your loyalty to the black masses, to strike out and name names.

He added: To avoid being mistaken for a sellout, I chose my friends carefully. The more politically active black students. The foreign students. The Chicanos. The Marxist professors and structural feminists.

Obama said he and other blacks were careful not to second-guess their own racial identity in front of whites.

To admit our doubt and confusion to whites, to open up our psyches to general examination by those who had caused so much of the damage in the first place, seemed ludicrous, itself an expression of self-hatred, he wrote.

After his sophomore year, Obama transferred to Columbia University. Later, looking back on his years in New York City, he recalled: I had grown accustomed, everywhere, to suspicions between the races.

His pessimism about race relations seemed to pervade his worldview.

The emotion between the races could never be pure, he laments in Dreams. Even love was tarnished by the desire to find in the other some element that was missing in ourselves. Whether we sought out our demons or salvation, the other race would always remain just that: menacing, alien, and apart.

That's Obama's words not Dr. Wrights.


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## William Joyce (Mar 14, 2008)

Obama won't be president, period.  Not now.  Nobody says "God Damn America" and gets rewarded with a chair in the Oval Office.  Not gonna happen.

Thank you, and good night.


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## jreeves (Mar 14, 2008)

jreeves said:


> If you read Obama's first book it sounds a lot like Dr. Wright,
> 
> http://www.examiner.com/a-536474~_Trapped_between_two_worlds_.html
> 
> ...



After graduating from college, Obama eventually went to Chicago to interview for a job as a community organizer. His racial attitudes came into play as he sized up the man who would become his boss.

There was something about him that made me wary, Obama wrote. A little too sure of himself, maybe. And white.


That hate hadn't gone away, he wrote, blaming white people  some cruel, some ignorant, sometimes a single face, sometimes just a faceless image of a system claiming power over our lives.

Obamas racial suspicions were not always limited to whites. For example, after making his first visit to Kenya, he wrote of being disappointed to learn that his paternal grandfather had been a servant to rich whites.

He wrote in Dreams that the revelation caused ugly words to flash across my mind. Uncle Tom. Collaborator. House ******.

Such blunt and provocative observations about race are largely absent from Obamas second memoir.


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## JimH52 (Mar 14, 2008)

FOX News just kicked off the fear campaign complete with a video from Obama's church with his Rev. espousing the EVIL WHITE MAN!  The Dems better be ready... or are they ready to blow another chance at the White House.

This is not good...


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## jreeves (Mar 14, 2008)

JimH52 said:


> FOX News just kicked off the fear campaign complete with a video from Obama's church with his Rev. espousing the EVIL WHITE MAN!  The Dems better be ready... or are they ready to blow another chance at the White House.
> 
> This is not good...



Yeah I would say "God Damn America" is a problem!


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## JimH52 (Mar 14, 2008)

jreeves said:


> Yeah I would say "God Damn America" is a problem!



I must admit, I don't know anyone that would sit in a Church and listen to this for 20 years and still say, I love America.  It is very difficult to say it but FOX news is pushing this issue while all the other news centers are backing off and I don't agree with that.  This is a major issue and until it is explained to my satisfaction, I will not vote for Obama.  I may not vote for any Presidential Candiate.

So Democrats, make your choice...


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## jreeves (Mar 14, 2008)

JimH52 said:


> I must admit, I don't know anyone that would sit in a Church and listen to this for 20 years and still say, I love America.  It is very difficult to say it but FOX news is pushing this issue while all the other news centers are backing off and I don't agree with that.  This is a major issue and until it is explained to my satisfaction, I will not vote for Obama.  I may not vote for any Presidential Candiate.
> 
> So Democrats, make your choice...



I'm telling you at this point I would vote for Hillary a 100 times before I voted for Obama.


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## JimH52 (Mar 14, 2008)

jreeves said:


> Yeah I would say "God Damn America" is a problem!



It is also very unChristian.  Obama should have looked for another Church about ...29 years ago.


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## jreeves (Mar 14, 2008)

JimH52 said:


> It is also very unChristian.  Obama should have looked for another Church about ...29 years ago.



[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNTGRL0OJWQ&feature=related[/ame]


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## JimH52 (Mar 14, 2008)

The Wright issue is beginning to have 24-7 coverage on FOX News.

Obama, nice to know you and good luck in whatever profession you chose.


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## jreeves (Mar 14, 2008)

JimH52 said:


> The Wright issue is beginning to have 24-7 coverage on FOX News.
> 
> Obama, nice to know you and good luck in whatever profession you chose.



Agreed Hillary will win Pa and very well could win Nc as well.


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## Detmurds (Mar 15, 2008)

JimH52 said:


> FOX News just kicked off the fear campaign complete with a video from Obama's church with his Rev. espousing the EVIL WHITE MAN!  The Dems better be ready... or are they ready to blow another chance at the White House.
> 
> This is not good...



Uhh,...CNN is talking about it too!  Video as well.


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## Dr Grump (Mar 15, 2008)

God you Yanks are so shallow....


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## Taomon (Mar 15, 2008)

Ravir said:


> While I agree that some of the things he said are true, one of the sermons I read had him saying black people will never amount to anything and it's all white people's fault. This is basically the same meme the Republicans have been using, except they don't blame white people for black difficulties, they blame Democrats.
> 
> There's something seriously wrong with that attitude.


Well, Black people did not create US Slavery, black people did not create poverty, black people did not create ghettos/projects, black people did not create bigotry, black people did not create jim crow laws and police brutality, black people did not create inequality...and yet they are tasked with rising above it.


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## Ravi (Mar 15, 2008)

What you say is also true.

The message the man gives is wrong. Would you tell your children they'll never amount to nothing and it's all someone else's fault?


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## Taomon (Mar 15, 2008)

Ravir said:


> What you say is also true.
> 
> The message the man gives is wrong. Would you tell your children they'll never amount to nothing and it's all someone else's fault?



Of course not, but there are several factors here and people tend to blame the victim rather than empower them.


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## jreeves (Mar 15, 2008)

Taomon said:


> Of course not, but there are several factors here and people tend to blame the victim rather than empower them.



Yep, and how do you suppose we empower someone who stated "God Damn American"?


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## ScreamingEagle (Mar 15, 2008)

Taomon said:


> Well, Black people did not create US Slavery, black people did not create poverty, black people did not create ghettos/projects, black people did not create bigotry, black people did not create jim crow laws and police brutality, black people did not create inequality...and yet they are tasked with rising above it.


Cry me a river.

Asians had/have the same problems but do you see them whining and acting the victim?  
No, they rise above it.

Uncle Jeremiah is the epitome of black victimhood.  If his alliance is to Africa as his church claims  then let him move his sorry arse to Africa and damn America from over there.


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## BrianH (Mar 15, 2008)

For those of you who "damn America," are you saying that all white people do, all day long, is sit around and try to think up ways to put the black folk down?  This makes me laugh...it sounds like you've spent too much time thinking up conspiracy theories.  Sure , 150 years ago, that may be the case.  But the last time I checked the law and the constitution, everyone is treated equally.  The era of black suppression is over my friends and whoever fails to see it is simply hard-head and closed-minded.  Blacks are allowed to do the same things that any other race is allowed to do, their allowed to have the same jobs, get the same pay, their not segregated...their equal, which is what was asked for during the Civil Rights Movement.  The real racists are the once who preach like Pastor Wright and think that because the majority of black youth do not take it upon themselves to go to college and get good jobs that it's all the white people's fault.(by the way, I have seen black friends of mine go to college and end the cycle of poverty for their families),   Did you know there is equally or more government assistance available to minorities (more exclusively African-Americans) to attend college?  Sure the FAFSA says they don't discriminate against race or gender, but their pulling the wool over everyone's eyes.  So it's all white peoples fault that there's a large number of poor black Americans.   None of us get any special treatment....so what are you all talking about.  I don't ever remember a time in my life where I've even thought to "suppress" a black person.  
Why should any race be granted "empowerment"  that's unequal to me.   I don't see any other race getting "empowerment" from anyone.  There are just as many blacks in the country that are racists against whites.  

What happens is, the majority of the white kids are taught, "Treat everyone equal and don't judge them by their skin color."  I'm from south Texas and I was taught that.  But a lot of little black kids are taught by their parents, that the whites are always trying to "stomp" on them, and that the whites are causing all the problems for the blacks.  I'm not racist,  I've got several black and hispanic friends,  but I think you America haters need to take a good long look in the mirror before you start casting stones.   

The Fact is, the law states that we're equal, and that's how people are treated.  I don't see blacks being denied entry into stores anymore; never have in my lifetime.  I see a black-hispanic-white-hispanic-white-black line of kids at the water fountain.  There is no large evil plan by the whites to keep blacks at the lower class.  Shame on you for assuming this.  You can take all of your racists books and cram them.

By the way, if I had wanted to vote for Obama, his firm association with his racist goon would have changed my vote.


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## midcan5 (Mar 15, 2008)

And so it goes, policies, accomplishments, potential, don't matter to the partisans, what matters is someone knows his third cousin who heard it from someone that his grandmother said but they can't be sure that....

*We are so filled with trivial on the right, is it any wonder we have trivia as president.*

http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=9f9b36f8-f297-4a48-9574-f231803be083

Bring em home


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## jillian (Mar 15, 2008)

To your first question, Brian, which is "For those of you who "damn America," are you saying that all white people do, all day long, is sit around and try to think up ways to put the black folk down?".  I would point out that no one on this board said "damn America", so I'm not quite sure to whom you're directing your inquiry.


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## jreeves (Mar 15, 2008)

midcan5 said:


> And so it goes, policies, accomplishments, potential, don't matter to the partisans, what matters is someone knows his third cousin who heard it from someone that his grandmother said but they can't be sure that....
> 
> *We are so filled with trivial on the right, is it any wonder we have trivia as president.*
> 
> ...



LOL....third cousin..no...pastor for over 20 years yes


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## rayboyusmc (Mar 15, 2008)

Obama has taken the pastor out of his campaign.  

Why no complaints about the Pastor Hayden who McCain has accepted?  He said the Catholic Church is a Whore.  Oh, that's right you do believe it is a whore.



> Asians had/have the same problems but do you see them whining and acting the victim?
> No, they rise above it.  (*All of them?*



If you are comparing the Asian experience in America to the Black experience as being equal, you are full of sound and fury and quite a bit of bullshit.

Obama has risen above the inherent barriers of being a black in America.  I guess he doesn't get credit in your eyes like the Asians?


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## BrianH (Mar 15, 2008)

Heh heh, sorry, I let my emotions get away with me on this one.  But, if someone on this post were to be an "America Hater", then the post was for you.   This was the post that got me all ryled up.



Taomon said:


> Well, Black people did not create US Slavery, black people did not create poverty, black people did not create ghettos/projects, black people did not create bigotry, black people did not create jim crow laws and police brutality, black people did not create inequality...and yet they are tasked with rising above it.



--While blacks did not create these things, blacks are no longer experiencing these things in mass.  All races experience this to some degree.  Old news is old news.  Your opinion sounds a little biased, no matter what race you are.


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## JimH52 (Mar 15, 2008)

The issue here is this could be a very big problem for Obama.  Perhaps not in the Dem. primaries or caucuses but in the general election it will dog him.  It will be used as a point of fear for all the white voters just like terrorism was used to scare everyone to vote for bush.  The GOP will hang their hats on it.

A few weeks ago I was confident of a Democratic President in the WH in 2009.  Now, I don't know...


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## BrianH (Mar 15, 2008)

rayboyusmc said:


> Obama has taken the pastor out of his campaign.
> 
> Why no complaints about the Pastor Hayden who McCain has accepted?  He said the Catholic Church is a Whore.  Oh, that's right you do believe it is a whore.
> 
> ...



--Inherent barrier? What would this be? How are blacks excluded from any right that the rest of us enjoy?


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## jreeves (Mar 15, 2008)

rayboyusmc said:


> Obama has taken the pastor out of his campaign.
> 
> Why no complaints about the Pastor Hayden who McCain has accepted?  He said the Catholic Church is a Whore.  Oh, that's right you do believe it is a whore.
> 
> ...



Lmao 
Pastor Hayden wasn't Mccain's pastor.....LOL

Plus Obama has made comments in his book that are all too similar to Dr. Racist Wright's words.


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## Detmurds (Mar 15, 2008)

Some things just don't matter.  No matter how much displays the way they hate the American way,...somebody always has to make it sound otherwise.  .....Sad but true!


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## JimH52 (Mar 16, 2008)

It is not going away.  CNN, FOX, and MSNBC all were talking it up.  It is only a matter of time before someone finds a picture of Obama sitting listening to Wright.


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## William Joyce (Mar 16, 2008)

JimH52 said:


> A few weeks ago I was confident of a Democratic President in the WH in 2009.  Now, I don't know...



I'll say this much:

McCain sure is lame, but I salivate at the thought of going up against either Hillary or Obama.  The attack ads will write themselves.  

Spot:

Rev. Wright saying "God Damn America."  Shot of Obama.  Quote:  "He's my spiritual mentor."

Paid for by McCain for President.


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## BrianH (Mar 16, 2008)

It's only a matter of time.  

I can see it now.  A video of Obama yelling "Amen" to the words of Pastor Wright.  

Then cuts to John McCain, "I'm John McCain, and I approve this message."

LOL


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## midcan5 (Mar 16, 2008)

End times are near, jeez this is a good reason for thos who enjoy life to vote for Obama. 


This piece showcases some of the especially egregious anti-Jewish writings of Christians United For Israel founder John Hagee.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDKjLsnJhy0[/ame]

Max Blumenthal, at the 2007 Washignton DC CUFI Conference, confronts John Hagee with his written assertion that Jews themselves are to blame for the Holocaust.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjMRgT5o-Ig[/ame]


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## jreeves (Mar 16, 2008)

midcan5 said:


> End times are near, jeez this is a good reason for thos who enjoy life to vote for Obama.
> 
> 
> This piece showcases some of the especially egregious anti-Jewish writings of Christians United For Israel founder John Hagee.
> ...



LOL doesn't one's own words mean anything to you? Obama made similar statements in his book as his racist pastor. You have a weak argument that somebody that simply supports a canidate has the same weight as Obama and his racist pastor of 20 years.


----------



## BrianH (Mar 16, 2008)

I agree with Jreeves...the fact is, most Americans are not racist these days, and if we want to elect a racist (the minority) to the presidency, we're sending the wrong representation.


----------



## Ravi (Mar 16, 2008)

midcan5 said:


> End times are near, jeez this is a good reason for thos who enjoy life to vote for Obama.
> 
> 
> This piece showcases some of the especially egregious anti-Jewish writings of Christians United For Israel founder John Hagee.
> ...



The thing is, you can find a million outrageous things Hagee says and it won't effect McCain's chance of winning the presidency. Not fair, but reality.


----------



## LordBrownTrout (Mar 16, 2008)

Comparing hagee and wright is laughable at best. It takes a helluva gymnast to do this.


----------



## midcan5 (Mar 16, 2008)

Ravir said:


> The thing is, you can find a million outrageous things Hagee says and it won't effect McCain's chance of winning the presidency. Not fair, but reality.



I disagree.  The democrats have to stop taking the high road and follow Rove's tactics, not in the sense of making things up, but by hitting back hard on any issue. The majority of people only hear the highlights so it is critical the dems call out McCain for his past irrelevancies too.


----------



## trobinett (Mar 16, 2008)

midcan5 said:


> I disagree.  The democrats have to stop taking the high road and follow Rove's tactics, not in the sense of making things up, but by hitting back hard on any issue. The majority of people only hear the highlights so it is critical the dems call out McCain for his past irrelevancies too.



Care to post those "irrelevancies" for the rest of us?


----------



## ScreamingEagle (Mar 16, 2008)

rayboyusmc said:


> If you are comparing the Asian experience in America to the Black experience as being equal, you are full of sound and fury and quite a bit of bullshit.
> 
> Obama has risen above the inherent barriers of being a black in America.  I guess he doesn't get credit in your eyes like the Asians?



So I guess the Chinese coolies and imported prostitutes are just a figment of my imagination...

Obama doesn't get real credit for being black in the eyes of "real" black Americans either&#8230;although it's not been a real problem for him.

*Is Obama Black Enough?*
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1584736,00.html


----------



## trobinett (Mar 16, 2008)

Hey, hate to be the bearer of BAD NEWS, but Obama has MANY problems, and they will grow with public inspection.

He will become the poster child for flaming candle.

Here today, gone tomorrow.............


----------



## CharlestonChad (Mar 16, 2008)

I guess Obama hates his white mother?









Thread over


----------



## PpleLOSINGpower (Mar 16, 2008)

"Senator Obama has said repeatedly that personal attacks such as this have no place in this campaign or our politics, whether they're offered from a platform at a rally or the pulpit of a church," said Bill Burton, a campaign spokesman.


Um, actually Senetor Obama, attacks on your character are exactly what the people need to know. First your wifes antics about how, "for the first time every she is actually proud of the U.S", undoubtibly due to the fact that an african american is running for president. Secondly, if you attended this church and had close relation with this radical race driven pastor, I'm going to go with the assumption that you stand by and agree with his views on being oppressed by the "Rich white man"!

Obviously Mr. Obama bin Senetor is going to deny and even bash sermons preached by his loved Pastor, but I bet he was singing his praises and amens when he was listening to the ol' racist's ramblings.


"My parents shared not only an improbable love, they shared an abiding faith in the possibilities of this nation. They would give me an African name, Barack, or blessed, believing that in a tolerant America your name is no barrier to success". 
                                                            Barack Obama 08'


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## jreeves (Mar 16, 2008)

CharlestonChad said:


> I guess Obama hates his white mother?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This should explain his mother.
Descended from a white American mother and black Kenyan father, the Illinois Democrat once wrote: He was black as pitch, my mother white as milk.

In his first memoir, Dreams from My Father, Obama observed that when people discover his mixed-race heritage, they make assumptions about the mixed blood, the divided soul, the ghostly image of the tragic mulatto trapped between two worlds.

Indeed, Obama acknowledges feeling tormented for much of his life by the constant, crippling fear that I didn't belong somehow, that unless I dodged and hid and pretended to be something I wasn't, I would forever remain an outsider, with the rest of the world, black and white, always standing in judgment.

Although Obama was raised by his mother, he identified more closely with the race of his father, who left the family when Obama was 2.

I ceased to advertise my mother's race at the age of 12 or 13, when I began to suspect that by doing so I was ingratiating myself to whites, he wrote.

http://www.examiner.com/a-536474~_Trapped_between_two_worlds_.html


----------



## trobinett (Mar 16, 2008)

jreeves said:


> This should explain his mother.
> Descended from a white American mother and black Kenyan father, the Illinois Democrat once wrote: He was black as pitch, my mother white as milk.
> 
> In his first memoir, Dreams from My Father, Obama observed that when people discover his mixed-race heritage, they make assumptions about the mixed blood, the divided soul, the ghostly image of the tragic mulatto trapped between two worlds.
> ...


----------



## Ravi (Mar 16, 2008)

midcan5 said:


> I disagree.  The democrats have to stop taking the high road and follow Rove's tactics, not in the sense of making things up, but by hitting back hard on any issue. The majority of people only hear the highlights so it is critical the dems call out McCain for his past irrelevancies too.



It's got nothing to do with the high road. None of the candidates could survive amening a preacher that chanted God damn America. Not even McCain. The pandering to stupid religious whacko's is business as usual for the right in any other case.


----------



## CharlestonChad (Mar 16, 2008)

jreeves said:


> This should explain his mother.
> Descended from a white American mother and black Kenyan father, the Illinois Democrat once wrote: He was black as pitch, my mother white as milk.
> 
> In his first memoir, Dreams from My Father, Obama observed that when people discover his mixed-race heritage, they make assumptions about the mixed blood, the divided soul, the ghostly image of the tragic mulatto trapped between two worlds.
> ...




Good, so we've established that he hates his mother. Now I guess we can rightfully dismiss any notion that he's a socialist because his mother hung out with socialists when she was a young woman.


----------



## jreeves (Mar 16, 2008)

CharlestonChad said:


> Good, so we've established that he hates his mother. Now I guess we can rightfully dismiss any notion that he's a socialist because his mother hung out with socialists when she was a young woman.



I never stated he hated his mother, only how he justified his dislike of whites.


----------



## CharlestonChad (Mar 16, 2008)

jreeves said:


> I never stated he hated his mother, only how he justified his dislike of whites.



I was being sarcastic. No where in your post did it mention his dislike of whites.


----------



## jreeves (Mar 16, 2008)

CharlestonChad said:


> I was being sarcastic. No where in your post did it mention his dislike of whites.



I've posted it a few times on different threads already but here you go.


Sen. Barack Obama, the only major black candidate in the 2008 presidential race, has spent much of his life anguishing over his mixed-race heritage and self-described racial obsessions.

Descended from a white American mother and black Kenyan father, the Illinois Democrat once wrote: He was black as pitch, my mother white as milk.

In his first memoir, Dreams from My Father, Obama observed that when people discover his mixed-race heritage, they make assumptions about the mixed blood, the divided soul, the ghostly image of the tragic mulatto trapped between two worlds.

Indeed, Obama acknowledges feeling tormented for much of his life by the constant, crippling fear that I didn't belong somehow, that unless I dodged and hid and pretended to be something I wasn't, I would forever remain an outsider, with the rest of the world, black and white, always standing in judgment.

Obama's views on race are certain to be an issue in the upcoming presidential campaign, according to Princeton University professor Melissa Harris-Lacewell, who specializes in African-American politics.

Theres no question that race and all the permutations that its going to take for Obama are going to be central issues, she predicted.

Although Obama was raised by his mother, he identified more closely with the race of his father, who left the family when Obama was 2.

I ceased to advertise my mother's race at the age of 12 or 13, when I began to suspect that by doing so I was ingratiating myself to whites, he wrote.

Yet, even through high school, he continued to vacillate between the twin strands of his racial identity.

I learned to slip back and forth between my black and white worlds, he wrote in Dreams. One of those tricks I had learned: People were satisfied so long as you were courteous and smiled and made no sudden moves. They were more than satisfied; they were relieved  such a pleasant surprise to find a well-mannered young black man who didn't seem angry all the time.

Although Obama spent various portions of his youth living with his white maternal grandfather and Indonesian stepfather, he vowed that he would never emulate white men and brown men whose fates didn't speak to my own. It was into my fathers image, the black man, son of Africa, that Id packed all the attributes I sought in myself, the attributes of Martin and Malcolm, DuBois and Mandela.

Obama wrote that in high school, he and a black friend would sometimes speak disparagingly about white folks this or white folks that, and I would suddenly remember my mother's smile, and the words that I spoke would seem awkward and false.

As a result, he concluded that certain whites could be excluded from the general category of our distrust.

Donna Brazile, who managed former Vice President Al Gores presidential campaign in 2000, said Obama's feelings of distrust toward most whites and doubts about himself are fairly typical for black Americans.

He was a young man trying to discover, trying to accept, trying to come to grips with his background, she explained. In the process, he had to really make some statements that are hurtful, maybe. But I think they're more insightful than anything.

During college, Obama disapproved of what he called other half-breeds who gravitated toward whites instead of blacks. And yet after college, he once fell in love with a white woman, only to push her away when he concluded he would have to assimilate into her world, not the other way around. He later married a black woman.

Such candid racial revelations abound in Dreams, which was first published in 1995, when Obama was 34 and not yet in politics. By the time he ran for his Senate seat in 2004, he observed of that first memoir: Certain passages have proven to be inconvenient politically.

Thus, in his second memoir, The Audacity of Hope, which was published last year, Obama adopted a more conciliatory, even upbeat tone when discussing race. Noting his multiracial family, he wrote in the new book: Ive never had the option of restricting my loyalties on the basis of race, or measuring my worth on the basis of tribe.

This appears to contradict certain passages in his first memoir, including a description of black student life at Occidental College in Los Angeles.

There were enough of us on campus to constitute a tribe, and when it came to hanging out many of us chose to function like a tribe, staying close together, traveling in packs, he wrote. It remained necessary to prove which side you were on, to show your loyalty to the black masses, to strike out and name names.

He added: To avoid being mistaken for a sellout, I chose my friends carefully. The more politically active black students. The foreign students. The Chicanos. The Marxist professors and structural feminists.

Obama said he and other blacks were careful not to second-guess their own racial identity in front of whites.

To admit our doubt and confusion to whites, to open up our psyches to general examination by those who had caused so much of the damage in the first place, seemed ludicrous, itself an expression of self-hatred, he wrote.

After his sophomore year, Obama transferred to Columbia University. Later, looking back on his years in New York City, he recalled: I had grown accustomed, everywhere, to suspicions between the races.

His pessimism about race relations seemed to pervade his worldview.

The emotion between the races could never be pure, he laments in Dreams. Even love was tarnished by the desire to find in the other some element that was missing in ourselves. Whether we sought out our demons or salvation, the other race would always remain just that: menacing, alien, and apart.

After graduating from college, Obama eventually went to Chicago to interview for a job as a community organizer. His racial attitudes came into play as he sized up the man who would become his boss.

There was something about him that made me wary, Obama wrote. A little too sure of himself, maybe. And white.

Harris-Lacewell said such expressions of distrust toward whites will not hurt Obama in the Democratic presidential primaries, which are dominated by liberal voters.

To win the Democratic nomination, he's got to get a part of the progressive, anti-war, white folks, she said. And those white folks tend to be suspicious of any black person who wouldnt be suspicious of white people.

Such liberals would have little basis for suspicion after reading some of Obamas conclusions about the white race, which he once described as that ghostly figure that haunted black dreams.

That hate hadn't gone away, he wrote, blaming white people  some cruel, some ignorant, sometimes a single face, sometimes just a faceless image of a system claiming power over our lives.

Obamas racial suspicions were not always limited to whites. For example, after making his first visit to Kenya, he wrote of being disappointed to learn that his paternal grandfather had been a servant to rich whites.

He wrote in Dreams that the revelation caused ugly words to flash across my mind. Uncle Tom. Collaborator. House ******.

Such blunt and provocative observations about race are largely absent from Obamas second memoir.

I have witnessed a profound shift in race relations in my lifetime, he wrote in Audacity. I insist that things have gotten better.

http://www.examiner.com/a-536474~_Trapped_between_two_worlds_.html


----------



## CharlestonChad (Mar 16, 2008)

Did you miss the last line? 

When someone grows up with a black father and white mother, yet they are considered black by society because they are not pure white, then I'd imagine they would have some distrust of the people that categorize them in with they race that they consider lesser. 

Obama even stated that he's matured, and his feelings have changed. 

Nice try though, Obamaphobe.


----------



## jreeves (Mar 16, 2008)

CharlestonChad said:


> Did you miss the last line?
> 
> When someone grows up with a black father and white mother, yet they are considered black by society because they are not pure white, then I'd imagine they would have some distrust of the people that categorize them in with they race that they consider lesser.
> 
> ...



Yeah sure, white people became one face bullshit, alienating, menacing...."God Damn America"....


----------



## CharlestonChad (Mar 16, 2008)

jreeves said:


> Yeah sure, white people became one face bullshit, alienating, menacing...."God Damn America"....




Come on, at least put up a fight. I wouldn't have even posted if I knew you'd throw up the white flag so early.


----------



## jreeves (Mar 16, 2008)

CharlestonChad said:


> Come on, at least put up a fight. I wouldn't have even posted if I knew you'd throw up the white flag so early.



Evidently you can't read...


----------



## CharlestonChad (Mar 16, 2008)

jreeves said:


> Evidently you can't read...



You copy-pasted an article. I read it and stated why your conclusion is incorrect. Then you deflected and still have not responded to what I said. 

I guess being an Obamaphobe is more about reaction and less about substance.


----------



## jreeves (Mar 16, 2008)

CharlestonChad said:


> You copy-pasted an article. I read it and stated why your conclusion is incorrect. Then you deflected and still have not responded to what I said.
> 
> I guess being an Obamaphobe is more about reaction and less about substance.



Ok, then ask me a question about Dr. Racist Wright or Obama who have started a new campaign song of 'God Damn America' and I will answer it.


----------



## CharlestonChad (Mar 16, 2008)

jreeves said:


> Ok, then ask me a question about Dr. Racist Wright or Obama who have started a new campaign song of 'God Damn America' and I will answer it.



Where can I find evidence of Obama starting a campaing song of "God Damn America"? 

or I could ask you


Why is a bigot associated with Obama relevant, while McCain attends a bigot church and it's fine?


----------



## jreeves (Mar 17, 2008)

CharlestonChad said:


> Where can I find evidence of Obama starting a campaing song of "God Damn America"?
> 
> or I could ask you
> 
> ...



Sorry the campaign song was just a dig at the absurdity of your arguement. 

As far as your 2nd question, let's see the bigot associated with Obama, is one in which was his pastor of over 20 years. Dr. Racist Wright performed his marriage ceremony, baptized his childern, was going to speak at his presidential candiacy announcement but Obama told him sometimes his sermons were a little rough...should I go on with the connections or do you get the point.
As far as some supporters of MCcain making ignorant comments, not as relevant as they weren't his pastors.


----------



## Annie (Mar 17, 2008)

CharlestonChad said:


> Where can I find evidence of Obama starting a campaing song of "God Damn America"?
> 
> or I could ask you
> 
> ...



McCain was endorsed by a bigot, whose ideas he more than distanced himself from quickly, not 2 years later. Obama chose his church and mentor 20 years ago, according to himself, 'he only found out about the questionable sermons' through the newspaper and denounced those while on the campaign trail, when questioned. Problem was then, he was responding to the _Rolling Stone_ article, which was using information previously published by the Chicago Tribune. So Obama managed not to know of his mentor's beliefs regarding whites and America, though attending that church over 15 years and missed the Chicago Tribune article about him? Seems more than weird.

BTW, it wasn't a 'few' times that Reverend Wright went off like that, there were over 30 sermons along the same lines, for sale on DVD from the Church.


----------



## CharlestonChad (Mar 17, 2008)

jreeves said:


> As far as your 2nd question, let's see the bigot associated with Obama, is one in which was his pastor of over 20 years. Dr. Racist Wright performed his marriage ceremony, baptized his childern, was going to speak at his presidential candiacy announcement but Obama told him sometimes his sermons were a little rough...should I go on with the connections or do you get the point.
> As far as some supporters of MCcain making ignorant comments, not as relevant as they weren't his pastors.



Oh really....


Rev. Hagee ( pastor of McCain)

    Hurricane Katrina
    At the end of the interview, Gross asked Hagee about a sermon in which he'd said Hurricane Katrina was a punishment from God. He explained:

       I believe that New Orleans had a level of sin that was offensive to God, and they are--were recipients of the judgment of God for that. The newspaper carried the story in our local area that was not carried nationally that there was to be a homosexual parade on the Monday that the Katrina came, and the promise of that parade was that it was going to reach a level of sexuality never demonstrated before in any of the other Gay Pride parades. So I believe that the judgment of God is a very real thing.

Mr. Hagee also upset black leaders. To help students seeking odd jobs, his church newsletter, The Cluster, advertised a "slave" sale. "Slavery in America is returning to Cornerstone," it said. "Make plans to come and go home with a slave." Mr. Hagee apologized but, in a radio interview, protested about pressure to be "politically correct" and joked that perhaps his pet dog should be called a "canine American."

Hagee on Women
"Do you know the difference between a woman with PMS and a snarling Doberman pinscher? The answer is lipstick. Do you know the difference between a terrorist and a woman with PMS? You can negotiate with a terrorist." [God's Profits: Faith, Fraud and the Republican Crusade for Values Voters, Sarah Posner]

Hagee on Iran
"The coming nuclear showdown with Iran is a certainty," Hagee wrote [in 2006] in the Pentecostal magazine Charisma. "Israel and America must confront Iran's nuclear ability and willingness to destroy Israel with nuclear weapons. For Israel to wait is to risk committing national suicide." [The Nation,8/8/2006,

McCain Defends Hagee: &#8216;He Said That His Words Were Taken Out Of Context&#8217;


    I will say that he said that his words were taken out of context, he defends his position. I hope that maybe you&#8217;d give him a chance to respond. He says he has never been anti-Catholic, but I repudiate the words that create that impression.

    Your Daily Politics Video Blog: There's been a lot of chatter over the last few days about John McCain's embrace of Pastor John Hagee, who's well-known for a history of anti-Catholicism and claims that God will send terrorists to create a "bloodbath" in America for its support of a two state solution in Israel/Palestine. So what is it exactly that Hagee's said and just how much has McCain cozied up to him? We thought we'd put all the choicest moments into one quick video so you could take a look and make up your own mind.


    Hagee has already come under fire for his anti-Catholic remarks. Bill Donohue, president of the Catholic League, said McCain should "retract his embrace of Hagee," and said Hagee "has waged an unrelenting war against the Catholic Church." Chris Korzen, Executive Director of Catholics United, said "We hope Senator McCain will take the principled position of publicly and unequivocally distancing himself from Pastor Hagee's anti-Catholic comments. Intolerance and bigotry do not belong in American politics."

       "As a Catholic, I am personally offended by John McCain's embrace of such a divisive figure. I join many others in the Catholic community
    calling on Sen. McCain to immediately distance himself from Hagee and denounce his remarks," said DNC Executive Director Tom McMahon. "As an
    American, I'm also offended by Hagee's denigration of African Americans, Muslims, women, and LGBT Americans. Hagee's hate speech has no place in public discourse and McCain's embrace of this figure raises serious questions about John McCain's character and his willingness to do anything to win."

Hagee on Islamic Beliefs

       Fresh Air host Terry Gross asked if Hagee believed that "all Muslims
    have a mandate to kill Christians and Jews," to which Hagee replied, "Well,
    the Quran teaches that. Yes, it teaches that very clearly." [NPR Fresh Air,
    9/18/06]









Like I said, I was hoping you would put up a fight, but apparently you are too ignorant of even your own party that you cannot have a reasonable debate. It's actually sad that you even try to smear Obama, because you don't seem to care about getting the best person in office. McCain gets no scrutiny from you, yet I'm pretty sure he had your vote a long time ago.


----------



## CharlestonChad (Mar 17, 2008)

Kathianne said:


> McCain was endorsed by a bigot, whose ideas he more than distanced himself from quickly, not 2 years later. Obama chose his church and mentor 20 years ago, according to himself, 'he only found out about the questionable sermons' through the newspaper and denounced those while on the campaign trail, when questioned. Problem was then, he was responding to the _Rolling Stone_ article, which was using information previously published by the Chicago Tribune. So Obama managed not to know of his mentor's beliefs regarding whites and America, though attending that church over 15 years and missed the Chicago Tribune article about him? Seems more than weird.
> 
> BTW, it wasn't a 'few' times that Reverend Wright went off like that, there were over 30 sermons along the same lines, for sale on DVD from the Church.


I'm not here to say what Wright says is ok. McCain has a racist bigot reverend, and I won't hold it against McCain, just like I won't hold it against Obama. People are free to have their own thoughts. Just because a pastor says something, it does not mean a person hearing it has to agree.


----------



## jreeves (Mar 17, 2008)

CharlestonChad said:


> Oh really....
> 
> 
> Rev. Hagee ( pastor of McCain)
> ...



Yep, when it comes down to refuting the truth you turn to lies. Hagee isn't MCcains pastor....

But in a Republican primary where the religious conservative vote is up for grabs, the fact that McCain attends North Phoenix Baptist Church  a large evangelical church that is part of the conservative Southern Baptist Convention  made the papers last month. 

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1018/p01s06-uspo.html?page=3


----------



## Annie (Mar 17, 2008)

CharlestonChad said:


> I'm not here to say what Wright says is ok. McCain has a racist bigot reverend, and I won't hold it against McCain, just like I won't hold it against Obama. People are free to have their own thoughts. Just because a pastor says something, it does not mean a person hearing it has to agree.



As I said, the moral equivilency doesn't hold here. I agree with you that people are certainly entitled to their own thoughts, we also have the right to use our own thoughts regarding presidential candidates through their actions. 

For the record, I felt the same with Ron Paul, while initially attracted because of some of his stands. But upon checking a bit, came across at the time those newsletters which disappeared. Luckily enough had saved some parts of them. If it were 'just some of his supporters' being racists and bigots, well candidates do attract 'all kinds.' The newsletters however, nearly 20 years worth, with Ron Paul making lots of extra income off of them, just didn't make sense that he 'didn't know what kind of slime' was in them.

After 20+ years of Obama's knowledge of Wright, personally and in congregation, just doesn't sit right that he was so clueless:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/06/us...in&oref=slogin



> ...Followers were also drawn simply by Mr. Wrights appeal. Trinity has 8,500 members today, making it the largest American congregation in the United Church of Christ, a mostly white denomination known for the independence of its congregations and its willingness to experiment with traditional Protestant theology.
> 
> Mr. Wright preached black liberation theology, which interprets the Bible as the story of the struggles of black people, who by virtue of their oppression are better able to understand Scripture than those who have suffered less. That message can sound different to white audiences, said Dwight Hopkins, a professor at University of Chicago Divinity School and a Trinity member. Some white people hear it as racism in reverse, Dr. Hopkins said, while blacks hear, Yes, we are somebody, were also made in Gods image....
> 
> ...


racist? No. Racial, yes.

and he had tapes further back than joining the church, sort of a problem:



> ...[Trinity United Church of Christ] also helped give him spiritual bona fides and a new assurance. Services at Trinity were a weekly master class in how to move an audience. When *Mr. Obama arrived at Harvard Law School later that year, where he fortified himself with recordings of Mr. Wrights sermons, he was delivering stirring speeches as a student leader in the classic oratorical style of the black church...*


----------



## jreeves (Mar 17, 2008)

jreeves said:


> Yep, when it comes down to refuting the truth you turn to lies. Hagee isn't MCcains pastor....
> 
> But in a Republican primary where the religious conservative vote is up for grabs, the fact that McCain attends North Phoenix Baptist Church  a large evangelical church that is part of the conservative Southern Baptist Convention  made the papers last month.
> 
> http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1018/p01s06-uspo.html?page=3



http://www.npbc.org/index.php?_cmd=info&link=2&sublink=2

Here's the site link for his church. Nothing on the site about the great whore or any other nonsense. Nothing about being proud of their native land, nothing on there about being unashamedly white, nothing on there about using a white value system......get the point.


----------



## jillian (Mar 17, 2008)

jreeves said:


> http://www.npbc.org/index.php?_cmd=info&link=2&sublink=2
> 
> Here's the site link for his church. Nothing on the site about the great whore or any other nonsense. Nothing about being proud of their native land, nothing on there about being unashamedly white, nothing on there about using a white value system......get the point.



So all the speeches that WE SAW Hagee give never happened?


----------



## Annie (Mar 17, 2008)

jillian said:


> So all the speeches that WE SAW Hagee give never happened?



Jillian, I believe the link was to McCain's church, not Hagee's.


----------



## jillian (Mar 17, 2008)

Kathianne said:


> Jillian, I believe the link was to McCain's church, not Hagee's.



I'm talking about what I saw Hagee saying on TV. Was that a figment of my imagination?

McCain surrounds himself with wackos...

Obama surrounds himself with wackos...

Gee... are any of us shocked?


----------



## Annie (Mar 17, 2008)

jillian said:


> I'm talking about what I saw Hagee saying on TV. Was that a figment of my imagination?
> 
> McCain surrounds himself with wackos...
> 
> ...



Shocked, no. Only Huckabee was shocked, as he knew they saw eye to eye. Expected that he'd court an 'evangelical' preacher, certainly. McCain makes no bones about it being political. He doesn't act like Hagee is his uncle, mentor, or spiritual advisor. Just hoping for a few more votes. Not saying it's pretty, but expected.


----------



## LordBrownTrout (Mar 17, 2008)

Again, grasping when trying to tie hagee and wright.  No one's buying it.


----------



## LordBrownTrout (Mar 17, 2008)

More coming out


..."It [Trinity United Church of Christ] also helped give him spiritual bona fides and a new assurance. Services at Trinity were a weekly master class in how to move an audience. When Mr. Obama arrived at Harvard Law School later that year, where he fortified himself with recordings of Mr. Wrights sermons, he was delivering stirring speeches as a student leader in the classic oratorical style of the black church"....

Well, we definitely know where his orator skills have come from.  Also, taking from Wright's black liberation theology and adjusting it to conform to his version of hope and change and the afflictions.


If Barack gets past the primary, he might have to publicly distance himself from me, Mr. Wright said with a shrug. I said it to Barack personally, and he said yeah, that might have to happen.


----------



## CharlestonChad (Mar 17, 2008)

You win jreeves. I'm now convinced that Obama is a racist that hates America.


----------



## midcan5 (Mar 17, 2008)

LordBrownTrout said:


> Well, we definitely know where his orator skills have come from.



While OT can you tell me where Bush's oratory skills came from? And can you tell me how much they have mattered to most people? And considering his actual policies and accomplishments can you relate those things to his rhetoric?


----------



## LordBrownTrout (Mar 17, 2008)

midcan5 said:


> While OT can you tell me where Bush's oratory skills came from? And can you tell me how much they have mattered to most people? And considering his actual policies and accomplishments can you relate those things to his rhetoric?



Actually, I couldn't tell you where Bush's came from but they're horrible. His rhetoric usually veers from initial subject matter. My point still being, why would a well  educated, articulate man, Obama, listen to a racist, black separtist?  I can honestly say that I would not attend a church for one minute that espoused racist, bigoted, views towards ANY race.


----------



## CharlestonChad (Mar 17, 2008)

LordBrownTrout said:


> Actually, I couldn't tell you where Bush's came from but they're horrible. His rhetoric usually veers from initial subject matter. My point still being, why would a well  educated, articulate man, Obama, listen to a racist, black separtist?  I can honestly say that I would not attend a church for one minute that espoused racist, bigoted, views towards ANY race.



Maybe because he had a long history of working with the community, and the church is a very strong organization in a black community that has the resources to do a lot of good for it's members and it's society. 

I used to go to a church that had a pastor who was known to have had an affair with a member of the church, yet he said pastor for years after that became widespread knowledge. I guess that makes me a adulterer.


----------



## jreeves (Mar 17, 2008)

CharlestonChad said:


> You win jreeves. I'm now convinced that Obama is a racist that hates America.



Thanks its good we both agree.


----------



## jreeves (Mar 17, 2008)

midcan5 said:


> While OT can you tell me where Bush's oratory skills came from? And can you tell me how much they have mattered to most people? And considering his actual policies and accomplishments can you relate those things to his rhetoric?



I don't see what Bush's oratory skills have anything to do with this conversation considering he's not running.


----------



## CrpRavens30 (Mar 17, 2008)

CharlestonChad said:


> You win jreeves. I'm now convinced that Obama is a racist that hates America.



Well its the company he keeps. We know already his wife and pastor hates America.


----------



## jillian (Mar 17, 2008)

CrpRavens30 said:


> Well its the company he keeps. We know already his wife and pastor hates America.



Does that mean I'm a neo-con homophobe because my dad is a neo-con homophobe? Or do I have to not love my father in order to disassociate myself from the things he is that I don't believe in?

What a bunch of jerks... so threatened by the guy who could wipe the floor with their widdle candidate.


----------



## CrpRavens30 (Mar 17, 2008)

jillian said:


> Does that mean I'm a neo-con homophobe because my dad is a neo-con homophobe?
> 
> What a bunch of jerks... so threatened by the guy who could wipe the floor with their widdle candidate.



No it means your father is intelligent and that intelligence didnt trickle down to you.


----------



## jreeves (Mar 17, 2008)

jillian said:


> Does that mean I'm a neo-con homophobe because my dad is a neo-con homophobe? Or do I have to not love my father in order to disassociate myself from the things he is that I don't believe in?
> 
> What a bunch of jerks... so threatened by the guy who could wipe the floor with their widdle candidate.



Speaking the truth means were jerks....


----------



## jillian (Mar 17, 2008)

jreeves said:


> Speaking the truth means were jerks....



It means you're a bunch of stupid, racist little pissants. Yes.


----------



## jreeves (Mar 17, 2008)

jillian said:


> It means you're a bunch of stupid, racist little pissants. Yes.



That's funny it seems you are a little confused there that would be Obama and his pastor. I think the recordings prove that. But what's new that's how Obama attacks everyone who questions him.


----------



## jillian (Mar 17, 2008)

jreeves said:


> That's funny it seems you are a little confused there that would be Obama and his pastor. I think the recordings prove that. But what's new that's how Obama attacks everyone who questions him.



You aren't talking about Obama's pastor. You're talking about Obama. You see the distinction, no?

Of course you don't... you and your friends are too ignorant to engage in even the slightest analysis of any subject.


----------



## CrpRavens30 (Mar 17, 2008)

jillian said:


> You aren't talking about Obama's pastor. You're talking about Obama. You see the distinction, no?
> 
> Of course you don't... you and your friends are too ignorant to engage in even the slightest analysis of any subject.



If McCain was friends for more then 20 years with David Duke you would be jumping up and down about how McCain is a racist etc. Obama's pastor is the black version of David Duke. I understand you liberals have a big double standard but come on.


----------



## jreeves (Mar 17, 2008)

jillian said:


> You aren't talking about Obama's pastor. You're talking about Obama. You see the distinction, no?
> 
> Of course you don't... you and your friends are too ignorant to engage in even the slightest analysis of any subject.



Ok let's analyze the subject then, pastor makes racial inflammatory comments for 20 years, Obama states he never heard him make these statements. Even though back in April 2007 they both acknowledge that Obama will probably have to distance himself from Wright. Seems as though Obama knew he was a racist and stayed in the church.


----------



## Taomon (Mar 17, 2008)

jreeves said:


> Yep, and how do you suppose we empower someone who stated "God Damn American"?



By changing our foreign and domestic policies to be more democratic. To ackowledge and accept the importance of all citizens in America and fellow citizens of other countries who are affected by our policies and those of our trans-national corporations.

What we need is a paradigm change.

America is very classist, racist, and materialistic.


----------



## Taomon (Mar 17, 2008)

ScreamingEagle said:


> Cry me a river.
> 
> Asians had/have the same problems but do you see them whining and acting the victim?
> No, they rise above it.
> ...


So you do not believe in freedom of speech. What a shock.


----------



## Taomon (Mar 17, 2008)

BrianH said:


> For those of you who "damn America," are you saying that all white people do, all day long, is sit around and try to think up ways to put the black folk down?  This makes me laugh...it sounds like you've spent too much time thinking up conspiracy theories.  Sure , 150 years ago, that may be the case.  But the last time I checked the law and the constitution, everyone is treated equally.  The era of black suppression is over my friends and whoever fails to see it is simply hard-head and closed-minded.  Blacks are allowed to do the same things that any other race is allowed to do, their allowed to have the same jobs, get the same pay, their not segregated...their equal, which is what was asked for during the Civil Rights Movement.  The real racists are the once who preach like Pastor Wright and think that because the majority of black youth do not take it upon themselves to go to college and get good jobs that it's all the white people's fault.(by the way, I have seen black friends of mine go to college and end the cycle of poverty for their families),   Did you know there is equally or more government assistance available to minorities (more exclusively African-Americans) to attend college?  Sure the FAFSA says they don't discriminate against race or gender, but their pulling the wool over everyone's eyes.  So it's all white peoples fault that there's a large number of poor black Americans.   None of us get any special treatment....so what are you all talking about.  I don't ever remember a time in my life where I've even thought to "suppress" a black person.
> Why should any race be granted "empowerment"  that's unequal to me.   I don't see any other race getting "empowerment" from anyone.  There are just as many blacks in the country that are racists against whites.
> 
> What happens is, the majority of the white kids are taught, "Treat everyone equal and don't judge them by their skin color."  I'm from south Texas and I was taught that.  But a lot of little black kids are taught by their parents, that the whites are always trying to "stomp" on them, and that the whites are causing all the problems for the blacks.  I'm not racist,  I've got several black and hispanic friends,  but I think you America haters need to take a good long look in the mirror before you start casting stones.
> ...


I am white and I have many black, gay, asian, hispanic and poor friends.

Believe me, bigotry is alive and well in America. If you are not a woman, black, asian, hispanic, gay, or poor...you do not understand.


----------



## Taomon (Mar 17, 2008)

BrianH said:


> Heh heh, sorry, I let my emotions get away with me on this one.  But, if someone on this post were to be an "America Hater", then the post was for you.   This was the post that got me all ryled up.
> 
> 
> 
> --While blacks did not create these things, blacks are no longer experiencing these things in mass.  All races experience this to some degree.  Old news is old news.  Your opinion sounds a little biased, no matter what race you are.



How white of you to say. I understand why you are offended. It is the same reason why whites get offended when I denounce Thanksgiving (due to the holocaust against the Native American Indians by greedy whites).

You cannot face the truth so you attack the messenger and belittle the message.


----------



## LordBrownTrout (Mar 17, 2008)

Also, how much influence has Wright exerted on Obama's domestic and foreign policy views?


----------



## Taomon (Mar 17, 2008)

jreeves said:


> Ok let's analyze the subject then, pastor makes racial inflammatory comments for 20 years, Obama states he never heard him make these statements. Even though back in April 2007 they both acknowledge that Obama will probably have to distance himself from Wright. Seems as though Obama knew he was a racist and stayed in the church.


And your point is? How many white leaders listen to bigoted religious leaders?

There are the Bush twins for one. Oh yeah, Reagan.


----------



## jreeves (Mar 17, 2008)

Taomon said:


> By changing our foreign and domestic policies to be more democratic. To ackowledge and accept the importance of all citizens in America and fellow citizens of other countries who are affected by our policies and those of our trans-national corporations.
> 
> What we need is a paradigm change.
> 
> America is very classist, racist, and materialistic.



That won't change a person who feels white people owe him something. He is under the impression that white people are to blame for everything that is wrong in our country. But you think changing domestic and foreign policy somehow will change his racism. 

No, if what your saying is that we should be a socialist nation I disagree with you vehemently. We should be a mixed market, not socialist. When 56% of the national budget is spent on social programs we are teetering on the edge of full blown socialism. Especially considering the future projections for social entitlements. 
I disagree with you, we aren't a racist society as a whole. A defeatist position is to assume you can't suceed due to the 'man'.


----------



## Annie (Mar 17, 2008)

Taoman, you are reminding me of the old Shakespeare quote, 'The first thing we do, let's kill all the white guys'.


----------



## Taomon (Mar 17, 2008)

jreeves said:


> That won't change a person who feels white people owe him something. He is under the impression that white people are to blame for everything that is wrong in our country. But you think changing domestic and foreign policy somehow will change his racism.
> 
> No, if what your saying is that we should be a socialist nation I disagree with you vehemently. We should be a mixed market, not socialist. When 56% of the national budget is spent on social programs we are teetering on the edge of full blown socialism. Especially considering the future projections for social entitlements.
> I disagree with you, we aren't a racist society as a whole. A defeatist position is to assume you can't suceed due to the 'man'.



Did I say socialist? You are fucking dumb. You just automatically state socialism and then vehemently disagree and go on a tirade.

Blacks feel disenfranchised. Bigotry is still rampant in this country. When the slaves were freed, blacks were elevated to second class citizens. In some places, they were not even that.

But they have to rise above it because you claim that they feel we owe them something. 

Actually, we do owe blacks something. We owe them solidarity. And that is lacking in all of our foreign & domestic policies.

I am all for making money and companies getting rich. I don't believe that it can only be achieved by stepping on the necks of the poor.

Companies should have a certain level of social responsibility. We know hand-outs will not solve anything. What we need is education, equality and a paradigm change.

Why would that be wrong?


----------



## Taomon (Mar 17, 2008)

Kathianne said:


> Taoman, you are reminding me of the old Shakespeare quote, 'The first thing we do, let's kill all the white guys'.


Um, no. That would be inaccurate.


----------



## ScreamingEagle (Mar 17, 2008)

Taomon said:


> So you do not believe in freedom of speech. What a shock.


How's that doofus?  Because I said since Uncle Jeremiah and his church claim alliance to Africa, he should take his sorry arse to Africa and damn America from there?

That's just me exercising MY right to free speech&#8230;..learn the difference.

I'll also add that should Obama end the war, he's already got that $200 billion earmarked  for Africa&#8230;.er, I mean world poverty&#8230;

(I wonder what Wright's cut would be)


----------



## BrianH (Mar 17, 2008)

"Companies should have a certain level of social responsibility. We know hand-outs will not solve anything. What we need is education, equality and a paradigm change"

Maybe one thing we agree on Taomon.

But honestly, large scale white bigotry of blacks no longer exists.  No more than bigotry of blacks against whites.  

My family was contacted by a black man a year ago...he claimed that my family owned his ancestors as slaves and that we owe them something.  Needless to say we never responded.  My family did own slaves, but my ancestors and their ancestors are long gone.  And I've been raised not to judge people by their skin color.

I do not agree with the end of your sentence though...we do have equality.  No race is given any more than any other race...opportunity wise.  

Granted, their are probably neo-nazi groups and white racist groups....bu their are just as many black groups that hate against whites.  Black Panthers, Pastor Wright...


----------



## jreeves (Mar 17, 2008)

Taomon said:


> Did I say socialist? You are fucking dumb. You just automatically state socialism and then vehemently disagree and go on a tirade.
> 
> Blacks feel disenfranchised. Bigotry is still rampant in this country. When the slaves were freed, blacks were elevated to second class citizens. In some places, they were not even that.
> 
> ...



Because it isn't companies job to heal any race. Companies are in business to make a profit, not to heal racial divides. Come on are you serious?

Affirmative action is a prime example of our bigotry as a nation right? A black in this country has ever bit as much opportunity to make a reasonable living as a white person. Yes some blacks as well as whites come from disadvantaged backgrounds. 

How are companies stepping on the necks of people to make a profit? I believe there are white racist out there, but there are also black racist. Neither one of them is more justified than the other.


----------



## Annie (Mar 17, 2008)

Taomon said:


> Um, no. That would be inaccurate.



It was this:



> If you are not a woman, black, asian, hispanic, gay, or poor...you do not understand.
> Reply With Quote



Well I am a woman and have empathy for many. The only folks left off of your list are rich Indians and white men.


----------



## CrpRavens30 (Mar 18, 2008)

Taomon said:


> Did I say socialist? You are fucking dumb. You just automatically state socialism and then vehemently disagree and go on a tirade.
> 
> Blacks feel disenfranchised. Bigotry is still rampant in this country. When the slaves were freed, blacks were elevated to second class citizens. In some places, they were not even that.
> 
> ...



We dont anyone a damn thing in this country. Non one alive today was a slave. There are plenty of examples of blacks that have made it through hard work.


----------



## Larkinn (Mar 18, 2008)

CrpRavens30 said:


> We dont anyone a damn thing in this country. Non one alive today was a slave. There are plenty of examples of blacks that have made it through hard work.



There are people alive who suffered through Jim Crow.  You think that somehow that didn't effect people?

Also I love this claim that somehow what happens to parents doesn't effect the children.   Ridiculously untrue.


----------



## Larkinn (Mar 18, 2008)

Kathianne said:


> It was this:
> 
> 
> 
> Well I am a woman and have empathy for many. The only folks left off of your list are rich Indians and white men.



Wait you mean rich white men can't understand what its like to be disadvantaged?

Gee...I wonder why he left them off the list.


----------



## Larkinn (Mar 18, 2008)

jreeves said:


> Ok let's analyze the subject then, pastor makes racial inflammatory comments for 20 years, Obama states he never heard him make these statements. Even though back in April 2007 they both acknowledge that Obama will probably have to distance himself from Wright. Seems as though Obama knew he was a racist and stayed in the church.



Really?   He made them for 20 years?

Please give me a cite of one he made each year he was a pastor.


----------



## jreeves (Mar 18, 2008)

Larkinn said:


> Really?   He made them for 20 years?
> 
> Please give me a cite of one he made each year he was a pastor.



Excuse me mr. literalist, if you want to believe someone that had stated such hate and strong of views of racism. To state, that whites infected black people with Aids, didn't make the same comments 20 years ago then go ahead pull your Obama '08 shirt over your head and bury it in the sand.


----------



## jreeves (Mar 18, 2008)

Larkinn said:


> Wait you mean rich white men can't understand what its like to be disadvantaged?
> 
> Gee...I wonder why he left them off the list.



Obama was so disadvantaged, he went to Harvard and is now running for President of the US. Come on get real.


----------



## Larkinn (Mar 18, 2008)

jreeves said:


> Excuse me mr. literalist, if you want to believe someone that had stated such hate and strong of views of racism. To state, that whites infected black people with Aids, didn't make the same comments 20 years ago then go ahead pull your Obama '08 shirt over your head and bury it in the sand.



K...so if someone says something once they say it all the time?   Or is your argument that people always have the same coherent set of ideas?   

Gee...in a Black Church they rail against white discrimination.   What a surprise.


----------



## Larkinn (Mar 18, 2008)

jreeves said:


> Obama was so disadvantaged, he went to Harvard and is now running for President of the US. Come on get real.



And now all y'all can talk about is his race and call him a liar/racist/etc.   

Obama was disadvantaged.   He overcame those things.


----------



## Annie (Mar 18, 2008)

Larkinn said:


> And now all y'all can talk about is his race and call him a liar/racist/etc.
> 
> Obama was disadvantaged.   He overcame those things.



How was he disadvantaged? That he had bi-racial parents?


----------



## jreeves (Mar 18, 2008)

Larkinn said:


> And now all y'all can talk about is his race and call him a liar/racist/etc.
> 
> Obama was disadvantaged.   He overcame those things.



No actually, I am concentrating on his association with a racist and his own comments. That is not concentrating on his race. It wouldn't matter if he was white, I would hold him to the same standard.


----------



## Larkinn (Mar 18, 2008)

Kathianne said:


> How was he disadvantaged? That he had bi-racial parents?



Oh, when you see a half-black guy walking down the street you say "oh, I bet he is bi-racial"?   No, you think hes black.   And sorry for all the idiots who think that racism doesn't exist here, but its not fun being a black man in America.


----------



## Larkinn (Mar 18, 2008)

jreeves said:


> No actually, I am concentrating on his association with a racist and his own comments. That is not concentrating on his race. It wouldn't matter if he was white, I would hold him to the same standard.



Blacks necessarily focus on race.   For whites race is much less of an issue.   Obama has made said some unpleasant truths.   I'm sorry that you can't handle the fact that a black man in America is going to have thoughts on race.


----------



## Annie (Mar 18, 2008)

Larkinn said:


> Oh, when you see a half-black guy walking down the street you say "oh, I bet he is bi-racial"?   No, you think hes black.   And sorry for all the idiots who think that racism doesn't exist here, but its not fun being a black man in America.



Right, that is a real anomaly in Hawaii? Face it, BO had more advantages than many. His most pressing problem was that his parents were so intent on proving to the world their perspectives, he got lost.


----------



## jreeves (Mar 18, 2008)

Larkinn said:


> Blacks necessarily focus on race.   For whites race is much less of an issue.   Obama has made said some unpleasant truths.   I'm sorry that you can't handle the fact that a black man in America is going to have thoughts on race.



And what you have just said still doesn't justify the highly inflammatory comments made by him and his pastor.


----------



## Larkinn (Mar 18, 2008)

Kathianne said:


> Right, that is a real anomaly in Hawaii? Face it, BO had more advantages than many. His most pressing problem was that his parents were so intent on proving to the world their perspectives, he got lost.



In 2001 Blacks were 1.2% of the population.

I'd say that is an anomaly, wouldn't you?


----------



## jreeves (Mar 19, 2008)

Larkinn said:


> Oh, when you see a half-black guy walking down the street you say "oh, I bet he is bi-racial"?   No, you think hes black.   And sorry for all the idiots who think that racism doesn't exist here, but its not fun being a black man in America.



No actually I don't judge people by the color of their skin.


----------



## Annie (Mar 19, 2008)

Larkinn said:


> In 2001 Blacks were 1.2% of the population.
> 
> I'd say that is an anomaly, wouldn't you?



What's the percentage of bi-racial?


----------



## jillian (Mar 19, 2008)

jreeves said:


> And what you have just said still doesn't justify the highly inflammatory comments made by him and his pastor.



Once again, let's see if you can suss things out....

Obama's pastor is a divisive racist. True.

What "inflammatory comments" has Obama made.

Oh, that's right... NONE!

Is lying a pathological thing with you?


----------



## Larkinn (Mar 19, 2008)

jreeves said:


> No actually I don't judge people by the color of their skin.



Haha, right.

I'm sure you don't even notice it.


----------



## Larkinn (Mar 19, 2008)

Kathianne said:


> What's the percentage of bi-racial?



Sorry but in our society being half black counts as being black, not as being bi-racial.

Its fucked up and racist, but then again so is our society.


----------



## Ravi (Mar 19, 2008)

Larkinn said:


> Sorry but in our society being half black counts as being black, not as being bi-racial.
> 
> Its fucked up and racist, but then again so is our society.



It's only racist if you see something wrong with being black.


----------



## Larkinn (Mar 19, 2008)

Ravir said:


> It's only racist if you see something wrong with being black.



Assuming that someone with any black blood in them is black, is racist.   Why is that done only to blacks?   Why not Asians?   Why not Native Americans?   Why not Latinos?


----------



## Ravi (Mar 19, 2008)

Larkinn said:


> Assuming that someone with any black blood in them is black, is racist.   Why is that done only to blacks?   Why not Asians?   Why not Native Americans?   Why not Latinos?



You're joking, right? People are categorized as asians, native americans, and latinos all the time. Oh, and as whites. Or by hair color. Jeebus, there's nothing wrong with being black.


----------



## bush lover (Mar 19, 2008)

Obama is a Muslim-trained racist. He is unpatriotic and refuses to salute the flag or wear a flag pin. His wife hates America and so does that so-called pastor. Obama thinks of himself as a new messiah. His friends are all crooks and are trying to get our tax money through his status as a senator. He clearly favors the terrorists because he wants to withdraw from Iraq and rejects military action against the terrorist-protecting Iran, which hates Israel. He just wants to take the money from productive people and hand it out to the lazy welfare people. As for Hillary, she is shrill, polarizing and a b****. John McCain will be our next President, because our current President Bush has endorsed him.


----------



## Larkinn (Mar 19, 2008)

Ravir said:


> You're joking, right? People are categorized as asians, native americans, and latinos all the time. Oh, and as whites. Or by hair color. Jeebus, there's nothing wrong with being black.



Generally when one is bi-racial with those races one is considered bi-racial.  Generally when one is bi-racial with some black in them they are considered black.

Plessy v. Ferguson the case which upheld Jim Crow wasn't really about a black man.   It was about a white man who was 1/8th black.

You think these ideas just sort of pop up by coincidence?


----------



## Ravi (Mar 19, 2008)

Larkinn said:


> Generally when one is bi-racial with those races one is considered bi-racial.  Generally when one is bi-racial with some black in them they are considered black.
> 
> Plessy v. Ferguson the case which upheld Jim Crow wasn't really about a black man.   It was about a white man who was 1/8th black.
> 
> You think these ideas just sort of pop up by coincidence?



And people go around calling them biracial? I don't think so. 

If you can't use black as an adjective then there's some shame to being black. And I'm pretty sure Obama has referred to himself as black on several occasions.


----------



## manifold (Mar 19, 2008)

Ravir said:


> If you can't use black as an adjective then there's some shame to being black.



You can't use retarded as an adjective without running a high risk of offending.  Does that mean there is shame in being retarded?  Why do you hate retards?


----------



## Ravi (Mar 19, 2008)

I don't hate you.


----------



## manifold (Mar 19, 2008)

Even when I'm right?


----------



## Ravi (Mar 19, 2008)

You are equating blackness with retardedness?

If so, no you aren't right.


----------



## Annie (Mar 19, 2008)

Larkinn said:


> Sorry but in our society being half black counts as being black, not as being bi-racial.
> 
> Its fucked up and racist, but then again so is our society.



My point _was_, as if you didn't know, Hawaii is diverse and Obama just did not run into the type of prejudice alluded to in the book. The Chicago Tribune found that out in '07. Seems his remembrances of long, angst filled talks with some friends about racism didn't happen, though friends remember his angst filled conversations on abandonment.


----------



## Shogun (Mar 19, 2008)

Even when you are Retarded!


----------



## Larkinn (Mar 19, 2008)

Ravir said:


> And people go around calling them biracial? I don't think so.



Generally, yeah.   Or say they are of mixed race or somewhat.  



> If you can't use black as an adjective then there's some shame to being black. And I'm pretty sure Obama has referred to himself as black on several occasions.



You can use the adjective, but be aware that we use it because of racism.


----------



## Larkinn (Mar 19, 2008)

Kathianne said:


> My point _was_, as if you didn't know, Hawaii is diverse and Obama just did not run into the type of prejudice alluded to in the book. The Chicago Tribune found that out in '07. Seems his remembrances of long, angst filled talks with some friends about racism didn't happen, though friends remember his angst filled conversations on abandonment.



Right Hawaii is the land of plenty where all the races just get along without any rememberances of past racism.


----------



## Annie (Mar 19, 2008)

Larkinn said:


> Right Hawaii is the land of plenty where all the races just get along without any rememberances of past racism.



Who said 'any?' Implication should have been obvious, perhaps I was asking too much. In the area Obama was raised, in the private schools he attended, he did not encounter much prejudice. On the contrary, many of the students that were his peers, were also biracial and there were a few blacks. 

Indeed, probably part of the reason that Obama picked Wright's church was for the very reason that he'd already lost once to Bobby Rush. The community he wished to represent had experienced the prejudice you are speaking of. They didn't trust Obama, an extremely smart, very well educated upper middle class black, (the people would not have seen him as black, as he's half white. Oops, in Chicago at least, it's not a one drop deal.) I'm waiting for the Trib or Sun Times to get around to interviewing some of the people there, somehow I think they will not be too forgiving of his having Wright removed and even his lame condemnation of 'some' of what Wright  spoke about.


----------



## Ravi (Mar 19, 2008)

Larkinn said:


> Generally, yeah.   Or say they are of mixed race or somewhat.
> 
> 
> 
> You can use the adjective, but be aware that we use it because of racism.



I've never heard of anyone referred to in conversation as biracial. I have biracial people in my family, and none of them refer to themselves that way. Should I tell my sister-in-law she's not really a latina?

And I don't think _we_ use it because of racism. You might. I don't. It's simply a descriptive adjective much like the word blond.


----------



## Larkinn (Mar 19, 2008)

Kathianne said:


> Who said 'any?' Implication should have been obvious, perhaps I was asking too much. In the area Obama was raised, in the private schools he attended, he did not encounter much prejudice. On the contrary, many of the students that were his peers, were also biracial and there were a few blacks.



You do understand that there is a racial difference between someone who is half white/half asian and someone who is half white/half black, right?   

And again I'm curious as to how you know what racism he went up against?  



> Indeed, probably part of the reason that Obama picked Wright's church was for the very reason that he'd already lost once to Bobby Rush. The community he wished to represent had experienced the prejudice you are speaking of. They didn't trust Obama, an extremely smart, very well educated upper middle class black, (the people would not have seen him as black, as he's half white. Oops, in Chicago at least, it's not a one drop deal.)



Being smart, educated, upper middle class doesn't somehow shield you from prejudice.   And yes blacks don't assume others are blacks no matter how little black blood they have in them.   Gee, I wonder why.


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## Larkinn (Mar 19, 2008)

Ravir said:


> I've never heard of anyone referred to in conversation as biracial. I have biracial people in my family, and none of them refer to themselves that way. Should I tell my sister-in-law she's not really a latina?



She can call herself whatever she wants, but if shes biracial, shes biracial.



> And I don't think _we_ use it because of racism. You might. I don't. It's simply a descriptive adjective much like the word blond.



Where do you think it came from?   

Ever heard of an octaroon?


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## Annie (Mar 19, 2008)

Larkinn said:


> You do understand that there is a racial difference between someone who is half white/half asian and someone who is half white/half black, right?
> 
> And again I'm curious as to how you know what racism he went up against?


I'm going by his book and the Tribune coverage with his friends identified in the book. Obama has said that the Trib got them right. 





> Being smart, educated, upper middle class doesn't somehow shield you from prejudice.   And yes blacks don't assume others are blacks no matter how little black blood they have in them.   Gee, I wonder why.


See above.


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## jreeves (Mar 19, 2008)

Larkinn said:


> Haha, right.
> 
> I'm sure you don't even notice it.



No actually I don't focus on skin color sorry. I look at the person and judge the person by their actions. I don't drive down the road and say oh he's black, he's white, he's brown skinned, that is way to shallow.


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## jreeves (Mar 19, 2008)

jillian said:


> Once again, let's see if you can suss things out....
> 
> Obama's pastor is a divisive racist. True.
> 
> ...



He stated that white people became one face to him menacing, alienating. 
He stated a potential boss was too white etc......

Maybe not as inflammatory as Wright, but nonetheless inflammatory.


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## Ravi (Mar 20, 2008)

Larkinn said:


> She can call herself whatever she wants, but if shes biracial, shes biracial.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



She'll be thrilled to know you are okay with what she chooses to call herself.

If you want to classify people with such exactness, Obama would be considered a mulatto, not an octaroon. He still looks black to me.


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## manifold (Mar 20, 2008)

Ravir said:


> Obama... He still looks black to me.



I suppose they all look the same to you, right?


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## Ravi (Mar 20, 2008)

You suppose wrong.


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## manifold (Mar 20, 2008)

Ravir said:


> You suppose wrong.



Hey, you're the one laying down the vibe.

Don't condemn me for picking up on it.


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## Ravi (Mar 20, 2008)

manifold said:


> Hey, you're the one laying down the vibe.
> 
> Don't condemn me for picking up on it.



Are you ashamed of your ethnic heritage? I kind of doubt it. IMO, pretending someone isn't what they are is making that part of them shameful.


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## BrianH (Mar 20, 2008)

No offense Ravir, but do you have any concrete evidence of that statement?  

Just ribbin ya.


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## Ravi (Mar 20, 2008)

Nice!


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## manifold (Mar 20, 2008)

Ravir said:


> Are you ashamed of your ethnic heritage? I kind of doubt it. IMO, pretending someone isn't what they are is making that part of them shameful.




Who is pretending someone isn't what they are?


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## Ravi (Mar 20, 2008)

Larkin, for one.


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## manifold (Mar 20, 2008)

Ravir said:


> Larkin, for one.



I'm not seeing it.


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## Ravi (Mar 20, 2008)

_Sorry but in our society being half black counts as being black, not as being bi-racial.

Its fucked up and racist, but then again so is our society._

Maybe he just has a different definition of racism than I do.


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## manifold (Mar 20, 2008)

Ravir said:


> Sorry but in our society being half black counts as being black, not as being bi-racial.



First, no reason to be sorry.  Second, only the first part of your statement is true.  Yes, by and large being black is viewed as a yes/no thing.  However, it's not mutually exclusive with being multi-racial, it's mutually exclusive with being not black.

Is Obama black?  Yes.

Is Obama multi-racial?  Yes


I don't see what you're so conflicted about.


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## Ravi (Mar 20, 2008)

Sorry, I wasn't saying "sorry" to you.

I read this sentence several times and don't understand it. Could you clarify before I comment on your post?

_However, it's not mutually exclusive with being multi-racial, it's mutually exclusive with being not black._


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## manifold (Mar 20, 2008)

It means you can answer yes to both questions without being contradictory.

Obama is both black and multi-racial.


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## Ravi (Mar 20, 2008)

I don't disagree with that. Seems that Larkin does.

Though if you want to get technical, he's biracial, not multiracial.

And if you want to get really technical, he's the same race as the rest of us are--human.


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## manifold (Mar 20, 2008)

Ravir said:


> I don't disagree with that. Seems that Larkin does.
> 
> Though if you want to get technical, he's biracial, not multiracial.
> 
> And if you want to get really technical, he's the same race as the rest of us are--human.




Wrong.  But mostly in a nitpicky way.  "Technically," if he is biracial, he is also multiracial.  Biracial is merely more specific, it doesn't mean, as you state, that he is not multiracial.

As for your last statement, I guess it depends on how you define "race."  If you consider it analogous to species, then yes, we are all the same race.  If you consider it more analogous to breed, then we are certainly not all the same race.  As you ponder this, consider that a saint bernard and a yorkshire terrier are the same species too...


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## Ravi (Mar 20, 2008)

You're nitpicky? Imagine that.


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## manifold (Mar 20, 2008)

Ravir,

According to this definition, your statement that we are all the same race is "technically" a steaming pile of feces.  No offense. 


3 race 
Function: noun 
Etymology: Middle French, generation, from Old Italian razza 
Date: 1580 
1: a breeding stock of animals
2 a: a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock b: a class or kind of people unified by shared interests, habits, or characteristics
3 a: an actually or potentially interbreeding group within a species; also : a taxonomic category (as a subspecies) representing such a group b: breed c: a category of humankind that shares certain distinctive physical traits


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## Ravi (Mar 20, 2008)

This means we aren't the same race by almost every one of your definitions.

I'm not going to say I'm surprised.


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## manifold (Mar 20, 2008)

Ravir said:


> This means we aren't the same race by almost every one of your definitions.
> 
> I'm not going to say I'm surprised.




Who said they were my definitions?

I merely pasted them from Merriam Websters.


If there is anything decidedly un-surprising about any of this, it's your refusal to answer the question.


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## Ravi (Mar 20, 2008)

What question?


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## manifold (Mar 20, 2008)

Ravir said:


> What question?



In your understanding, is the concept of "race" more analogous to "species" or "breed?"

I'm taking it on faith that we at least share a common understanding of species and breed.


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## Ravi (Mar 20, 2008)

I missed that question.

My answer is species. I think of breed as a term for dogs, like in your musing above, with the dogs. It seems logical that we all came from one tribe, spread out, and developed different traits based on climate, etc, (geograhy???). Dogs have been selectively bred for certain characteristics. 

What do you think?


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## manifold (Mar 20, 2008)

Ravir said:


> I missed that question.
> 
> My answer is species. I think of breed as a term for dogs, like in your musing above, with the dogs. It seems logical that we all came from one tribe, spread out, and developed different traits based on climate, etc, (geograhy???). Dogs have been selectively bred for certain characteristics.
> 
> What do you think?




I disagree.  It's not analogous to species at all.  Not even a tiny bit.


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## manifold (Mar 20, 2008)

btw:  Various breeds of dog also came from a single, common, ancestral stock.  What makes them all members of the same species is the ability to produce fertile offspring.  Breed, like race, has nothing to do with this.  It is merely a layer of segmentation within a particular species based on any number of traits.


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## Ravi (Mar 20, 2008)

You want to explain that in greater detail or shall I attempt to read your mind?


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## Ravi (Mar 20, 2008)

manifold said:


> btw:  Various breeds of dog also came from a single, common, ancestral stock.  What makes them all members of the same species is the ability to produce fertile offspring.  Breed, like race, has nothing to do with this.  It is merely a layer of segmentation within a particular species based on any number of traits.



Maybe you're just getting way over my head. Are you saying blacks and whites can't produce fertile offspring together?


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## manifold (Mar 20, 2008)

Neither should be necessary.

I was pretty clear and to the point.


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## manifold (Mar 20, 2008)

Ravir said:


> Maybe you're just getting way over my head. Are you saying blacks and whites can't produce fertile offspring together?



Now you're just playing stupid.


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## Ravi (Mar 20, 2008)

manifold said:


> Neither should be necessary.
> 
> I was pretty clear and to the point.



Manny, sometimes I think we speak different languages. I really have no idea what you are trying to say.


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## manifold (Mar 20, 2008)

Ravir said:


> Manny, sometimes I think we speak different languages. I really have no idea what you are trying to say.



Fine, I'll recap:

It started with your insistance that Obama is not multiracial.  I think now we agree that he is.

Then we got sucked off onto a tangent about how, according to you, there is no such thing as multiracial since we are all part of the same race...human.

I said thats only true if you view race as meaning the same as species.  You accepted this, more or less, and said yep, race = species.

I disagreed.  No matter how one defines race(s), it is an attempt to subdivide homo sapiens (the species in question).


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## Ravi (Mar 20, 2008)

Not to be nitpicky, but I didn't mean to insist that Obama wasn't multiracial. My point was that he can be and mostly is considered black--and there's nothing wrong with that, the being or the considering.

What I'm not understanding is why you don't think race = species, or perhaps why you don't think it is a valid definition. IMO, what people usually refer to as race really means ethnicity.

I'm not even sure we are disagreeing, lol!


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## manifold (Mar 20, 2008)

Ravir said:


> Not to be nitpicky, but I didn't mean to insist that Obama wasn't multiracial. My point was that he can be and mostly is considered black--and there's nothing wrong with that, the being or the considering.
> 
> What I'm not understanding is why you don't think race = species, or perhaps why you don't think it is a valid definition. IMO, what people usually refer to as race really means ethnicity.
> 
> I'm not even sure we are disagreeing, lol!




I don't think race = species because by any definition, race is a subspecies.

It would be like saying for automobiles that model = make.


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## Ravi (Mar 20, 2008)

I see what you're saying. But I disagree. I don't think skin color and a few physical features makes a subspecies anymore than blue eyes and blond hair makes a subspecies.

Motorcyles would be a subspecies of automobiles. Model would be superficial differences, or ethnic groups.

We are all homo sapiens.

Jeez, I gotta get some food.


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## manifold (Mar 20, 2008)

Ravir said:


> I see what you're saying. But I disagree. I don't think skin color and a few physical features makes a subspecies anymore than blue eyes and blond hair makes a subspecies.
> 
> Motorcyles would be a subspecies of automobiles. Model would be superficial differences, or ethnic groups.
> 
> ...




Fine.  All that means is that you do not believe in the concept of racial distinctions.  However, that doesn't change the concept itself, which is to divide the species into subspecies groupings.


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## Ravi (Mar 20, 2008)

Okay, I did a little reading and your definition is just as correct. It depends on who is defining the term. I remember learning that racial classifications were artificially created by the same guy that came up with plant classifications for the purpose of "proving" that whites were superior.

But I'm willing to agree with your definition of race for the sake of discussion.

The bigger question is what is racism, and what is not.


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