# Top Tier Detergent Gasoline



## Sallow

After returning from Australia, I had some trouble with my Mini. A couple of the coils went south and I had them replaced. That still didn't do the trick and I went back to the garage as the engine light went on. The Mechanic asked me what sort of gas I was using and I said "Premium", as always. He was like "No, what brand". I get my gas from a HESS on the corner. Turns out it was clogging up my fuel injectors. I added a detergent yesterday and had a look at what gas would be best. Turns out? There are websites for this..

Top Tier Gasoline
Top Tier Gasoline

Have a look.

I didn't even know this sort of thing existed.


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## Mr. H.

I try to buy from a BP station where available. 
I do AVOID the small quickie marts like Hucks and Casey's. 

Years ago I interviewed for a job with a wholesaler. I was shown a list of various "blends" for their gasolines and noticed some odd nomenclature. I said "this looks like some sort of inert "filler". The gal got this real sheepish look on her face and said "well, that's one way to describe it."


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## Sallow

Mr. H. said:


> I try to buy from a BP station where available.
> I do AVOID the small quickie marts like Hucks and Casey's.
> 
> Years ago I interviewed for a job with a wholesaler. I was shown a list of various "blends" for their gasolines and noticed some odd nomenclature. I said "this looks like some sort of inert "filler". The gal got this real sheepish look on her face and said "well, that's one way to describe it."



Heh.

I got a BP across the street from where I live. Will be buying there from now on.


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## Sunni Man

Thanks for the useful thread Sallow.

I have been using the HESS station down the street.

But now I will only be buying my gasoline at a Top Tier station.   ..


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## Jarlaxle

Been buying by price for 20 years without a problem...and many "unbranded" stations sell the same gas as the expensive stations.

The one I usually go to sells Mobil gas.


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## Pogo

"Top tier" is a scam.  Gas is gas is gas.  There's nothing substantially different in a few brands that invent a label for themselves.

If your issue is coming from that Hess station I strongly suspect it's something in that specific station's system.


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## Sallow

Jarlaxle said:


> Been buying by price for 20 years without a problem...and many "unbranded" stations sell the same gas as the expensive stations.
> 
> The one I usually go to sells Mobil gas.



Mobil is one of the top tiers.


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## Sallow

Pogo said:


> "Top tier" is a scam.  Gas is gas is gas.  There's nothing substantially different in a few brands that invent a label for themselves.
> 
> If your issue is coming from that Hess station I strongly suspect it's something in that specific station's system.



My mechanic told me there was a difference.

I did a google search on this..and came up with the site.


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## Pogo

Sallow said:


> Pogo said:
> 
> 
> 
> "Top tier" is a scam.  Gas is gas is gas.  There's nothing substantially different in a few brands that invent a label for themselves.
> 
> If your issue is coming from that Hess station I strongly suspect it's something in that specific station's system.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My mechanic told me there was a difference.
> 
> I did a google search on this..and came up with the site.
Click to expand...


Yeah I know, it's been out there for years and there are those who believe in it but I think the general consensus is that it's basically an advertising gimmick.  All gas includes, by law, a detergent additive package, this one purporting to be superior, which is really little more than saying "our product is better because it contains Ziplificon B15".  It would take too long to test but my bet is if you went to another Hess station the issue would likely go away.  I would at least check with your Hess and your BP and see if they're not getting their gas from the same truck anyway.

Have to say, I have a MINI and have had no such issues and I'm usually using either the local cheapo brand or Citgo, which is not on the TT list.  Also I'm in a rural area and my driving is almost always highway, so the slow city driving where car snot tends to accumulate might be more a factor for you than for me.


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## Sallow

Pogo said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pogo said:
> 
> 
> 
> "Top tier" is a scam.  Gas is gas is gas.  There's nothing substantially different in a few brands that invent a label for themselves.
> 
> If your issue is coming from that Hess station I strongly suspect it's something in that specific station's system.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My mechanic told me there was a difference.
> 
> I did a google search on this..and came up with the site.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah I know, it's been out there for years and there are those who believe in it but I think the general consensus is that it's basically an advertising gimmick.  All gas includes, by law, a detergent additive package, this one purporting to be superior, which is really little more than saying "our product is better because it contains Ziplificon B15".  It would take too long to test but my bet is if you went to another Hess station the issue would likely go away.  I would at least check with your Hess and your BP and see if they're not getting their gas from the same truck anyway.
> 
> Have to say, I have a MINI and have had no such issues and I'm usually using either the local cheapo brand or Citgo, which is not on the TT list.  Also I'm in a rural area and my driving is almost always highway, so the slow city driving where car snot tends to accumulate might be more a factor for you than for me.
Click to expand...


Do a lot of stop and go driving. Traffic in New York is horrible. So?

It's a big issue.


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## Pogo

Sallow said:


> Pogo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> My mechanic told me there was a difference.
> 
> I did a google search on this..and came up with the site.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah I know, it's been out there for years and there are those who believe in it but I think the general consensus is that it's basically an advertising gimmick.  All gas includes, by law, a detergent additive package, this one purporting to be superior, which is really little more than saying "our product is better because it contains Ziplificon B15".  It would take too long to test but my bet is if you went to another Hess station the issue would likely go away.  I would at least check with your Hess and your BP and see if they're not getting their gas from the same truck anyway.
> 
> Have to say, I have a MINI and have had no such issues and I'm usually using either the local cheapo brand or Citgo, which is not on the TT list.  Also I'm in a rural area and my driving is almost always highway, so the slow city driving where car snot tends to accumulate might be more a factor for you than for me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Do a lot of stop and go driving. Traffic in New York is horrible. So?
> 
> It's a big issue.
Click to expand...


That's what I mean -- city driving like that where an engine doesn't get to "breathe deeply" builds up carbon probably quicker than any choice of gas can.  Without knowing what your patterns are, that may be more of a factor than anything.

I drive overall pretty gently but every once in a while I open 'er up just to, as the line in _There's Something About Mary_ goes -- "clean the pipes".   Learned that lesson long ago during a car inspection when my Tercel wasn't passing emissions (this was while living in a city) - the mechanic handed me the keys and suggested I "go air it out".  I got his drift and took it around the block at near-furious speeds, rolled back into the shop and passed emissions easily.


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## Sunni Man

Pogo said:


> I drive overall pretty gently but every once in a while I open 'er up just to, as the line in _There's Something About Mary_ goes -- "clean the pipes".   Learned that lesson long ago during a car inspection when my Tercel wasn't passing emissions (this was while living in a city) - the mechanic handed me the keys and suggested I "go air it out".  I got his drift and took it around the block at near-furious speeds, rolled back into the shop and passed emissions easily.


That's commonly known as an "Italian tune-up".   ..


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## Sallow

Pogo said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pogo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah I know, it's been out there for years and there are those who believe in it but I think the general consensus is that it's basically an advertising gimmick.  All gas includes, by law, a detergent additive package, this one purporting to be superior, which is really little more than saying "our product is better because it contains Ziplificon B15".  It would take too long to test but my bet is if you went to another Hess station the issue would likely go away.  I would at least check with your Hess and your BP and see if they're not getting their gas from the same truck anyway.
> 
> Have to say, I have a MINI and have had no such issues and I'm usually using either the local cheapo brand or Citgo, which is not on the TT list.  Also I'm in a rural area and my driving is almost always highway, so the slow city driving where car snot tends to accumulate might be more a factor for you than for me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do a lot of stop and go driving. Traffic in New York is horrible. So?
> 
> It's a big issue.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That's what I mean -- city driving like that where an engine doesn't get to "breathe deeply" builds up carbon probably quicker than any choice of gas can.  Without knowing what your patterns are, that may be more of a factor than anything.
> 
> I drive overall pretty gently but every once in a while I open 'er up just to, as the line in _There's Something About Mary_ goes -- "clean the pipes".   Learned that lesson long ago during a car inspection when my Tercel wasn't passing emissions (this was while living in a city) - the mechanic handed me the keys and suggested I "go air it out".  I got his drift and took it around the block at near-furious speeds, rolled back into the shop and passed emissions easily.
Click to expand...


All well and good..but it's hard to "open her open" on a pot hole infested FDR or George Washington Bridge.


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## sameech

Mr. H. said:


> I try to buy from a BP station where available.
> I do AVOID the small quickie marts like Hucks and Casey's.
> 
> Years ago I interviewed for a job with a wholesaler. I was shown a list of various "blends" for their gasolines and noticed some odd nomenclature. I said "this looks like some sort of inert "filler". The gal got this real sheepish look on her face and said "well, that's one way to describe it."



Yeah.  I am having issues because I sinned and went from BP to Sheetz two consecutive fill ups because Sheetz was lagging on th gouging and was still 25 cents cheaper than BP.  I started having a sputtering problem.  Ran a tank of injector cleaner and then a tank of Heet in case I picked up water.  Started cutting off on me when idling at stop lights.  Changed the fuel filter.  That helped some but now the cutting off thing is back.  The garage said I may have to run 2 or 3 tanks of lloyd's tune up in a bottle to get it taken care of after the filter change.  I am about to fill up and do tank 2.

I am also probably going to change my plugs and wires just in case this weekend as I just crossed 100K miles, but it feels like a fuel system problem because it is like I will lose power for a second and then it will want to accelerate some and it did not start until effing Sheetz.


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## Mr. H.

Why don't you just pony up an extra quarter/gallon? 
What's that... an extra $4/tank?


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## Sallow

Ugh..still having problems.


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## Sunni Man

Sallow said:


> Ugh..still having problems.


Try changing your fuel filter.......you might have water trapped in it.

Also, maybe it's time to change the spark plugs.   ..


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## mamooth

This thread dredged up something that has been stuck in my brain since ... maybe 1974? That is, this commercial ditty by the Irish Rovers.

We're the rocker arm assembly, assembly, assembly
We're the rocker arm assembly, we don't like dirt

But detergent gasoline
Helps keep our engine running smooth and clean
So it's Mobile, oh it's Mobile gasoline.


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## sameech

Mr. H. said:


> Why don't you just pony up an extra quarter/gallon?
> What's that... an extra $4/tank?



Probably because I had just cleaned out my savings account to pay off almost $25K in funeral/final medical expenses for my mother and I am flat broke at the moment unless I want to cash out my retirement account too


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## cereal_killer

Pogo said:


> "Top tier" is a scam.  Gas is gas is gas.  There's nothing substantially different in a few brands that invent a label for themselves.
> 
> If your issue is coming from that Hess station I strongly suspect it's something in that specific station's system.



Not true. Top Tier gas has higher levels of detergents in it. This is fact. Chevron and Exxon are excellent in this aspect. 

The cheap stuff burns dirty because of the low levels of deteregents in them. They use the very minimum amount of detergents in them. There's a reason it's cheap/cheaper. It sucks.


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## Pogo

cereal_killer said:


> Pogo said:
> 
> 
> 
> "Top tier" is a scam.  Gas is gas is gas.  There's nothing substantially different in a few brands that invent a label for themselves.
> 
> If your issue is coming from that Hess station I strongly suspect it's something in that specific station's system.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not true. Top Tier gas has higher levels of detergents in it. This is fact. Chevron and Exxon are excellent in this aspect.
> 
> The cheap stuff burns dirty because of the low levels of deteregents in them. They use the very minimum amount of detergents in them. There's a reason it's cheap/cheaper. It sucks.
Click to expand...


I understand that they _*say*_ that, C_K.  I just have yet to see the proof.
I also know that TT was contrived by a coalition of five automakers, one of whom is BMW (which owns MINI).  For what it's worth Sallow has (apparently) switched to his TT for his MINI and still has his problem, I haven't discriminated with mine and I don't.  That's not a scientific study but it does seem to indicate at least that whether he uses TT or not isn't the source of his troubles.

TT or not TT?  That is the question.

Whether 'tis nobler in the tank to suffer
The pings and errors of outrageous misfiring
Or to take brand names against a sea of troubles
And by opposing end them. 

Ay, there's the rub,
For in that sleep of death what compression may come
When we have sputtered off this mortal coil,
Not to mention these here mortal fuel injectors
Must give us pause...


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## KissMy

You guys should check your fuel pressure regulators, fuel filter, fuel pump pressure & in tank pick-up filter sock, manifold pressure sensor (MAP) or Mass Aif Flow (MAF) sensor, intake manifold gasket leaks, spark plugs, wires & plug gap. Make sure you use the OEM spark plugs brand & number & good wires. Just because the fancy ad slogan says certain plugs are better, they are likely worse.


----------



## KissMy

Pogo said:


> cereal_killer said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pogo said:
> 
> 
> 
> "Top tier" is a scam.  Gas is gas is gas.  There's nothing substantially different in a few brands that invent a label for themselves.
> 
> If your issue is coming from that Hess station I strongly suspect it's something in that specific station's system.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not true. Top Tier gas has higher levels of detergents in it. This is fact. Chevron and Exxon are excellent in this aspect.
> 
> The cheap stuff burns dirty because of the low levels of deteregents in them. They use the very minimum amount of detergents in them. There's a reason it's cheap/cheaper. It sucks.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I understand that they _*say*_ that, C_K.  I just have yet to see the proof.
> I also know that TT was contrived by a coalition of five automakers, one of whom is BMW (which owns MINI).  For what it's worth Sallow has (apparently) switched to his TT for his MINI and still has his problem, I haven't discriminated with mine and I don't.  That's not a scientific study but it does seem to indicate at least that whether he uses TT or not isn't the source of his troubles.
> 
> TT or not TT?  That is the question.
> 
> Whether 'tis nobler in the tank to suffer
> The pings and errors of outrageous misfiring
> Or to take brand names against a sea of troubles
> And by opposing end them.
> 
> Ay, there's the rub,
> For in that sleep of death what compression may come
> When we have sputtered off this mortal coil,
> Not to mention these here mortal fuel injectors
> Must give us pause...
Click to expand...


Yup - If your dealer/mechanic blames the gas, it's because they charged you a bunch of money & could not figure out the problem. They also like to sell you an expensive injector cleaning which is just a bottle they pour in the tank. There is a sucker born every minute.

I have used Hess, Hucks & 7-Eleven gas stations that are not on the TT list & had no runability issue on those tanks

I just ran 500 gallons of last years stale reclaimed E70 gas I got from MFA for $2 a gallon. It is TT gas but stale as hell, dirty & 70% ethanol, but it only sputters for 10 seconds when I start it cold in morning. I saved $750 buying that old gas.


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## Politico

Mr. H. said:


> I try to buy from a BP station where available.
> I do AVOID the small quickie marts like Hucks and Casey's.
> 
> Years ago I interviewed for a job with a wholesaler. I was shown a list of various "blends" for their gasolines and noticed some odd nomenclature. I said "this looks like some sort of inert "filler". The gal got this real sheepish look on her face and said "well, that's one way to describe it."



BP is Hess derp. If you don't want problems don't buy cars controlled by a computer.


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## Sunni Man

KissMy said:


> You guys should check your fuel pressure regulators, fuel filter, fuel pump pressure & in tank pick-up filter sock, manifold pressure sensor (MAP) or Mass Aif Flow (MAF) sensor, intake manifold gasket leaks, spark plugs, wires & plug gap. Make sure you use the OEM spark plugs brand & number & good wires. Just because the fancy ad slogan says certain plugs are better, they are likely worse.


My son recently bought a 2003 Lincoln that was idling really rough.

We ended up replacing everything you mentioned before it finally smoothed out.   ..


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## Jarlaxle

cereal_killer said:


> Pogo said:
> 
> 
> 
> "Top tier" is a scam.  Gas is gas is gas.  There's nothing substantially different in a few brands that invent a label for themselves.
> 
> If your issue is coming from that Hess station I strongly suspect it's something in that specific station's system.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not true. Top Tier gas has higher levels of detergents in it. This is fact. Chevron and Exxon are excellent in this aspect.
> 
> The cheap stuff burns dirty because of the low levels of detergents in them. They use the very minimum amount of detergents in them. There's a reason it's cheap/cheaper. It sucks.
Click to expand...


Pablum.  I watched a FLEET of vehicles wind up enormous mileage (300,000+ was common), fueled with nothing but the cheapest gas the company could buy!  200K on a fuel pump was common.  For that matter...my Cherokee had 220K when I sold it; it had the original pump and all six injectors.

Also note: I have WATCHED a tanker go straight from a name brand station (Mobil, Gulf, Sunoco) to a "no name" station and start unloading!


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## Jarlaxle

KissMy said:


> You guys should check your fuel pressure regulators, fuel filter, fuel pump pressure & in tank pick-up filter sock, manifold pressure sensor (MAP) or Mass Aif Flow (MAF) sensor, intake manifold gasket leaks, spark plugs, wires & plug gap. Make sure you use the OEM spark plugs brand & number & good wires. Just because the fancy ad slogan says certain plugs are better, they are likely worse.



Long as you avoid Chinesium, most plugs are fine.  I've used Autolite, Bosch, Delco, Champion...honestly, I never noticed much of a difference.  My Cherokee got Bosch plugs, mostly because everything else I found for it was from China.  IIRC, my Caddy has Champions; my wife's Grand National has NGK iridium plugs.


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## Jarlaxle

Sunni Man said:


> KissMy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You guys should check your fuel pressure regulators, fuel filter, fuel pump pressure & in tank pick-up filter sock, manifold pressure sensor (MAP) or Mass Aif Flow (MAF) sensor, intake manifold gasket leaks, spark plugs, wires & plug gap. Make sure you use the OEM spark plugs brand & number & good wires. Just because the fancy ad slogan says certain plugs are better, they are likely worse.
> 
> 
> 
> My son recently bought a 2003 Lincoln that was idling really rough.
> 
> We ended up replacing everything you mentioned before it finally smoothed out.   ..
Click to expand...


If it's a Town Car, check for a hairline crack in the front of the (plastic) intake manifold.


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## Sunni Man

Jarlaxle said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KissMy said:
> 
> 
> 
> You guys should check your fuel pressure regulators, fuel filter, fuel pump pressure & in tank pick-up filter sock, manifold pressure sensor (MAP) or Mass Aif Flow (MAF) sensor, intake manifold gasket leaks, spark plugs, wires & plug gap. Make sure you use the OEM spark plugs brand & number & good wires. Just because the fancy ad slogan says certain plugs are better, they are likely worse.
> 
> 
> 
> My son recently bought a 2003 Lincoln that was idling really rough.
> 
> We ended up replacing everything you mentioned before it finally smoothed out.   ..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If it's a Town Car, check for a hairline crack in the front of the (plastic) intake manifold.
Click to expand...

Intake manifold was fine......we just had to replace the gasket.....car idles and runs smooth now.


The problem we can't seem to figure out.....and neither have 4 different mechanics.

The Towncar car has a button that you push to operate the car in Overdrive.....which you generally leave engaged all of the time......except if you were towing in hill country.

When in overdrive the car will only go up to 40 mph and them starts losing speed.

When taken out of overdrive the car will drive like normal.....but of course won't go into 4th gear......which is basically locking in the torque converter.

There are no codes showing on the diagnostics......and the chip tests good.

Any ideas??    ..


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## sameech

KissMy said:


> You guys should check your fuel pressure regulators, fuel filter, fuel pump pressure & in tank pick-up filter sock, manifold pressure sensor (MAP) or Mass Aif Flow (MAF) sensor, intake manifold gasket leaks, spark plugs, wires & plug gap. Make sure you use the OEM spark plugs brand & number & good wires. Just because the fancy ad slogan says certain plugs are better, they are likely worse.



The autozone puter says it could be one of the MAPS, the timing, or a vacuum issue--so basically a useless trip other than I bought the plugs and new wires which will take me a week to get in seeing as how it just took me almost an hour just to switch out the wires on the front side of the motor.  I swear Buick super glues those things on.


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## KissMy

sameech said:


> Yeah.  I am having issues because I sinned and went from BP to Sheetz two consecutive fill ups because Sheetz was lagging on th gouging and was still 25 cents cheaper than BP.  I started having a sputtering problem.  Ran a tank of injector cleaner and then a tank of Heet in case I picked up water.  Started cutting off on me when idling at stop lights.  Changed the fuel filter.  That helped some but now the cutting off thing is back.  The garage said I may have to run 2 or 3 tanks of lloyd's tune up in a bottle to get it taken care of after the filter change.  I am about to fill up and do tank 2.
> 
> I am also probably going to change my plugs and wires just in case this weekend as I just crossed 100K miles, but it feels like a fuel system problem because it is like I will lose power for a second and then it will want to accelerate some and it did not start until effing Sheetz.



So your engine is shutting off?


----------



## sameech

KissMy said:


> sameech said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah.  I am having issues because I sinned and went from BP to Sheetz two consecutive fill ups because Sheetz was lagging on th gouging and was still 25 cents cheaper than BP.  I started having a sputtering problem.  Ran a tank of injector cleaner and then a tank of Heet in case I picked up water.  Started cutting off on me when idling at stop lights.  Changed the fuel filter.  That helped some but now the cutting off thing is back.  The garage said I may have to run 2 or 3 tanks of lloyd's tune up in a bottle to get it taken care of after the filter change.  I am about to fill up and do tank 2.
> 
> I am also probably going to change my plugs and wires just in case this weekend as I just crossed 100K miles, but it feels like a fuel system problem because it is like I will lose power for a second and then it will want to accelerate some and it did not start until effing Sheetz.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So your engine is shutting off?
Click to expand...


sometimes when I am sitting at a red light.  It will usually run fine during my first trip of the day.  It will then get sputtery/jerky randomly when I am driving.  The odd thing is sometimes it feels like I pick up speed when I am rolling to a stop as if it has a burst of extra fuel.  I am doing the plugs and wires if for no other reason than I am about 15K over recommended change.  If and when that doesn't fix it, I will try cleaning the MAF sensor if I can find the spray locally.


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## eagle1462010

I agree with gas is gas.  Each company has it's specific additive or detergent.

I go to Exxon for my gas because I like their coffee.  LOL

For all of my yard equipment I buy nothing but non Ethanol Gasoline as it destroys the Carbs.


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## sameech

eagle1462010 said:


> I agree with gas is gas.  Each company has it's specific additive or detergent.
> 
> I go to Exxon for my gas because I like their coffee.  LOL
> 
> For all of my yard equipment I buy nothing but non Ethanol Gasoline as it destroys the Carbs.



I don't go to Exxon because they consistently charge 15 cents more per gallon than BP in my area.  If BP goes up, Exxon goes up; if BP goes down, Exxon goes down--always the same spread.  The pakistani guy who runs the knock off gas station/food stamps for cash/head shop next to the BP I think calls the other Pakistani guys who run all the exxon's.


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## KissMy

sameech said:


> KissMy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sameech said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah.  I am having issues because I sinned and went from BP to Sheetz two consecutive fill ups because Sheetz was lagging on th gouging and was still 25 cents cheaper than BP.  I started having a sputtering problem.  Ran a tank of injector cleaner and then a tank of Heet in case I picked up water.  Started cutting off on me when idling at stop lights.  Changed the fuel filter.  That helped some but now the cutting off thing is back.  The garage said I may have to run 2 or 3 tanks of lloyd's tune up in a bottle to get it taken care of after the filter change.  I am about to fill up and do tank 2.
> 
> I am also probably going to change my plugs and wires just in case this weekend as I just crossed 100K miles, but it feels like a fuel system problem because it is like I will lose power for a second and then it will want to accelerate some and it did not start until effing Sheetz.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So your engine is shutting off?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> sometimes when I am sitting at a red light.  It will usually run fine during my first trip of the day.  It will then get sputtery/jerky randomly when I am driving.  The odd thing is sometimes it feels like I pick up speed when I am rolling to a stop as if it has a burst of extra fuel.  I am doing the plugs and wires if for no other reason than I am about 15K over recommended change.  If and when that doesn't fix it, I will try cleaning the MAF sensor if I can find the spray locally.
Click to expand...


That timing code is strange, but those timing sensors do go bad often & will kill the engine.

I think your big problem is a vacuum leak or MAP sensor. When you hit your brake the vacuum is used to power them. So as soon as you hit the brake the mix goes lean, then vacuum builds back & mix goes rich as you hold down the brake & the car slows.

If you have a bad vacuum leak it will get the fuel mix far out & cause false O2 sensor codes. Lots of people replace O2 sensors, but only one time have I heard it actually fixed the problem.


----------



## sameech

KissMy said:


> sameech said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KissMy said:
> 
> 
> 
> So your engine is shutting off?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sometimes when I am sitting at a red light.  It will usually run fine during my first trip of the day.  It will then get sputtery/jerky randomly when I am driving.  The odd thing is sometimes it feels like I pick up speed when I am rolling to a stop as if it has a burst of extra fuel.  I am doing the plugs and wires if for no other reason than I am about 15K over recommended change.  If and when that doesn't fix it, I will try cleaning the MAF sensor if I can find the spray locally.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That timing code is strange, but those timing sensors do go bad often & will kill the engine.
> 
> I think your big problem is a vacuum leak or MAP sensor. When you hit your brake the vacuum is used to power them. So as soon as you hit the brake the mix goes lean, then vacuum builds back & mix goes rich as you hold down the brake & the car slows.
> 
> If you have a bad vacuum leak it will get the fuel mix far out & cause false O2 sensor codes. Lots of people replace O2 sensors, but only one time have I heard it actually fixed the problem.
Click to expand...


Yeah this is probably going to require a garage.  Do you know how hard/expensive it is to find a vacuum leak?  I only have one car so this could be a PITA so I need to find out if I need to rent one.  The odd thing is that I can sputter like crazy and the check engine light never comes on but I can be cruising along smooth as silk and it will randomly come on and then go off.


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## eagle1462010

sameech said:


> KissMy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sameech said:
> 
> 
> 
> sometimes when I am sitting at a red light.  It will usually run fine during my first trip of the day.  It will then get sputtery/jerky randomly when I am driving.  The odd thing is sometimes it feels like I pick up speed when I am rolling to a stop as if it has a burst of extra fuel.  I am doing the plugs and wires if for no other reason than I am about 15K over recommended change.  If and when that doesn't fix it, I will try cleaning the MAF sensor if I can find the spray locally.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That timing code is strange, but those timing sensors do go bad often & will kill the engine.
> 
> I think your big problem is a vacuum leak or MAP sensor. When you hit your brake the vacuum is used to power them. So as soon as you hit the brake the mix goes lean, then vacuum builds back & mix goes rich as you hold down the brake & the car slows.
> 
> If you have a bad vacuum leak it will get the fuel mix far out & cause false O2 sensor codes. Lots of people replace O2 sensors, but only one time have I heard it actually fixed the problem.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah this is probably going to require a garage.  Do you know how hard/expensive it is to find a vacuum leak?  I only have one car so this could be a PITA so I need to find out if I need to rent one.  The odd thing is that I can sputter like crazy and the check engine light never comes on but I can be cruising along smooth as silk and it will randomly come on and then go off.
Click to expand...


The computer stores the codes.


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## sameech

eagle1462010 said:


> The computer stores the codes.



The autozone printout says: Troubleshooting P0102/OEM Brand:  Domestic (it is a 2000 buick lesabre)

Engine load or the air volume entering the engine measured by these components .  The computer has recognized a return signal error.  Probable causes  vacuum hose off, cracked, or passage blocked, mechanical timing condition, throttle body intake tube loose, off or cracked, BARD/MAP defective, VAF/MAF sensor dirty or defective


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## eagle1462010

Part 1 -MAF Sensor Test (P0101, P0102, P0103): GM 3.8L (1996-2005).


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## Sunni Man

eagle1462010 said:


> For all of my yard equipment I buy nothing but non Ethanol Gasoline as it destroys the Carbs.


Who sells non ethanol gas?    ..


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## eagle1462010

Sunni Man said:


> eagle1462010 said:
> 
> 
> 
> For all of my yard equipment I buy nothing but non Ethanol Gasoline as it destroys the Carbs.
> 
> 
> 
> Who sells non ethanol gas?    ..
Click to expand...


We have several places that sell it out in the country.  It's higher, but since I've gone that route my yard equipment is running much better.


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## KissMy

sameech said:


> KissMy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sameech said:
> 
> 
> 
> sometimes when I am sitting at a red light.  It will usually run fine during my first trip of the day.  It will then get sputtery/jerky randomly when I am driving.  The odd thing is sometimes it feels like I pick up speed when I am rolling to a stop as if it has a burst of extra fuel.  I am doing the plugs and wires if for no other reason than I am about 15K over recommended change.  If and when that doesn't fix it, I will try cleaning the MAF sensor if I can find the spray locally.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That timing code is strange, but those timing sensors do go bad often & will kill the engine.
> 
> I think your big problem is a vacuum leak or MAP sensor. When you hit your brake the vacuum is used to power them. So as soon as you hit the brake the mix goes lean, then vacuum builds back & mix goes rich as you hold down the brake & the car slows.
> 
> If you have a bad vacuum leak it will get the fuel mix far out & cause false O2 sensor codes. Lots of people replace O2 sensors, but only one time have I heard it actually fixed the problem.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah this is probably going to require a garage.  Do you know how hard/expensive it is to find a vacuum leak?  I only have one car so this could be a PITA so I need to find out if I need to rent one.  The odd thing is that I can sputter like crazy and the check engine light never comes on but I can be cruising along smooth as silk and it will randomly come on and then go off.
Click to expand...


I would change the MAP sensor as it's only about $20 & if it also has an expensive MAF sensor I would clean that. Look around for cracked vacuum lines. This is all fast & cheap.

If it has a plastic intake manifold & the above does not fix it, then take it in & let the mechanic earn his pay.


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## sameech

eagle1462010 said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> eagle1462010 said:
> 
> 
> 
> For all of my yard equipment I buy nothing but non Ethanol Gasoline as it destroys the Carbs.
> 
> 
> 
> Who sells non ethanol gas?    ..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We have several places that sell it out in the country.  It's higher, but since I've gone that route my yard equipment is running much better.
Click to expand...


Isn't that why people are supposed to put fuel stabilizer in their small engines (not that I actually do unless I get a free sample)


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## Sunni Man

sameech said:


> Yeah this is probably going to require a garage.  Do you know how hard/expensive it is to find a vacuum leak?


My son's car recently had a vacuum leak. He could hear the slight hissing sound but never could find the source. So he paid a mechanic $50 to put a colored dye into the air lines and run the car. This identified which line was bad and it was replaced.     ..      
.


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## Pogo

Sunni Man said:


> eagle1462010 said:
> 
> 
> 
> For all of my yard equipment I buy nothing but non Ethanol Gasoline as it destroys the Carbs.
> 
> 
> 
> Who sells non ethanol gas?    ..
Click to expand...


Still thousands of sources -- this list is kept pretty up to date.  There's another unrelated site for around Louisiana/Mississippi which is not handy right now...

I ran only ethanol-free gas in my Saturn SW2, ever since I found that E10 caused the mileage to tank (pun intended) by 15-20% or even more -- meaning I was burning more oil (aside from the ethanol) using 90% gas than I was using the pure stuff.

We have several sources here in the sticks.  Generally it's likely to be found in places that cater to, or serve a community of, boaters, farmers or bikers.

And keep in mind there are a handful of states that still valiantly protect the consumer from the evils of information by not requiring the pump to disclose it's got ethanol in it, so you can't go by the absence of that label -- in those states.  Listed on this page.

This state used to be one of them but recently got on board and now requires it.    But at this point a station selling E-free knows it's a selling point and will advertise it as such (and jack up the price).


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## Jarlaxle

I need to check that site when I travel...in my Caddy, I WANT E10!


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