# Teachers caught cheating on student test scores



## Avatar4321 (Jul 6, 2011)

America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta - Yahoo! News

What ever happened to the day when teachers actually cared about their students? Please tell me we still have some left.


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## martybegan (Jul 6, 2011)

Avatar4321 said:


> America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta - Yahoo! News
> 
> What ever happened to the day when teachers actually cared about their students? Please tell me we still have some left.



This could be considered some big time fraud, as it involves large amounts of federal money.

One thing I take from the article is the writers apparent dislike of standardized tests in general.  My question becomes that without them, how do you quantify a students progress, and a teachers performance, in a repeatable and fair manner?


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## flacaltenn (Jul 6, 2011)

I've always wondered what the motivator was for public employees to be moral and ethical. We hear so much from the left about how morally bankrupt and corrupt "free enterprise" is because of profit motive -- while ignoring all the natural consequences of the marketplace for evil doing.... 

Can anyone on the left tell me why these public servants shouldn't cook the books and cheat?


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## Avatar4321 (Jul 6, 2011)

flacaltenn said:


> I've always wondered what the motivator was for public employees to be moral and ethical. We hear so much from the left about how morally bankrupt and corrupt "free enterprise" is because of profit motive -- while ignoring all the natural consequences of the marketplace for evil doing....
> 
> Can anyone on the left tell me why these public servants shouldn't cook the books and cheat?



Well, we are constantly told by the left that when their side does something bad it's not really bad because they don't believe in standards. Using that assertion, then the only reasonable answer to your question is that nothing is wrong.

Unfortunately, to those of us who recognize good and evil, to those of us who acknowledge that we were created by a wise and benevolent Heavenly Father, that we are accountable before Him for our actions and that we will be judged before Him someday, there is quite a bit of reason.

1) Personal integrity
2) Charity toward the children
3) A love for an honest days work.
4) A desire for self government.

etc


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## shintao (Jul 6, 2011)

Avatar4321 said:


> America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta - Yahoo! News
> 
> What ever happened to the day when teachers actually cared about their students? Please tell me we still have some left.



It was just prior to the facist reign of Bush II. Glad you asked.


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## Tank (Jul 6, 2011)

It's not cheating, it's Affirmative Action.


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## Mr. H. (Jul 6, 2011)

Education is a racket. It's an hierarchy-based feifdom infected with nepotism and favoritism. 

If it's truly "public education" then let the public invest their dollars, not through taxes but through private investment. Trade shares on the open market. Have managers that aren't afraid to fire non-productive NON UNION members. It's a total fuck up. 

There are no parameters for identifying the good teachers and the mechanism for firing the bad ones is onerous. 

Here's another example of the Education Racket:

3 Calif. moms accused of using PTA in Ponzi scheme - Yahoo! News

LOS ANGELES (AP) &#8212; _Three former PTA mothers used their connection with a suburban elementary school to recruit investors in a phony $14 million get-rich-quick scheme, authorities said Wednesday.

The alleged Ponzi-style scam lasted more than two years before an irate investor filed a complaint last year, sparking an investigation that led to the arrests Tuesday of three women, said Lt. Steve Katz of the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department.

The alleged swindle started in 2008 when the women told fellow PTA members they had the exclusive right to sell products from a well-known local dairy to Disneyland, Disney hotels and other small retailers._


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## psikeyhackr (Jul 7, 2011)

Mr. H. said:


> Education is a racket. It's an hierarchy-based feifdom infected with nepotism and favoritism.



What they call education is just the excuse for the real reason.

Since double-entry accounting is 700 years old shouldn't that be a mandatory part of the curriculum if EDUCATION was the true objective.  There have been cases of college students committing suicide after creating too much credit card debt.  But I have never seen making accounting mandatory in the high schools as a way to make them smart enough to not create the debt.

I looks more like the schools are designed to produce people knowledgeable enough to be of use but not smart enough to best be useful to themselves.  The problem is in the psychology of the culture.  Just the modern method of producing indentured servants without a particular master.

psik


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## Flopper (Jul 7, 2011)

We put way too much emphasis on test scores. We reward or punish teachers, principals, schools, and districts based on test scores.  As a result teachers teach kids how to pass the test.

The first year a new test is introduced, the kids usually do poorly.  Each year they do better because the teachers learn what material is on the test and they teach to the test.  After a few years the district is congratulating the staff on doing such a good job.  It's nonsense.


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## RetiredGySgt (Jul 7, 2011)

Flopper said:


> We put way too much emphasis on test scores. We reward or punish teachers, principals, schools, and districts based on test scores.  As a result teachers teach kids how to pass the test.
> 
> The first year a new test is introduced, the kids usually do poorly.  Each year they do better because the teachers learn what material is on the test and they teach to the test.  After a few years the district is congratulating the staff on doing such a good job.  It's nonsense.



All because the feel good liberals destroyed the education system with nonsense like " grades can cause hurt feelings and low self esteem, we should get rid of grades" and other such nonsense.

Did you know History is no longer taught until High School? Before that it is Social Studies where they learn about "different cultures" Instead of facts about historical events and actual history they learn about what people thought about and other nonsense.


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## editec (Jul 7, 2011)

What was their motive to do this?

To make the school look better than it is?

To help the students?

I don't really get it.

Not sure I want to, either.

Fire them all.


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## Douger (Jul 7, 2011)

No chillunz B giddin leff behine.
Dubya is a Yale graduate. I rest my case.
The US is an Idiocracy.


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## flacaltenn (Jul 7, 2011)

Flopper said:


> We put way too much emphasis on test scores. We reward or punish teachers, principals, schools, and districts based on test scores.  As a result teachers teach kids how to pass the test.
> 
> The first year a new test is introduced, the kids usually do poorly.  Each year they do better because the teachers learn what material is on the test and they teach to the test.  After a few years the district is congratulating the staff on doing such a good job.  It's nonsense.



The fact that the kids can't pass a lowest common denominator wimpy proficiency test is the REAL problem. RetiredGYSgt had most of it. Here's the rest. 

Kids are scored on GROUP performance. Projects, homework, are all mult-student assignments assignments. The artistic ones gets tapped for the drawings all the time, the tech savvy ones get tapped for content, ect. There are LESS measures of INDIVIDUAL performance that what WE experienced in classrooms. THAT'S why they can't pass the tests. The left hates them EVEN IF they are not Bush's fault. They hate the SATs, they hate GRADES, they hate measuring *individual* achievement. And the content they WANT to teach is not rich in facts, math or anything else that can be easily tested.

The tests Flopper are the last hope of evaluating this mess.


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## Tank (Jul 7, 2011)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7httv2yXvhM]YouTube - &#x202a;Test Cheating Scandal Rocks Atlanta Schools&#x202c;&rlm;[/ame]


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## flacaltenn (Jul 7, 2011)

Thanks Tank:

God bless that woman for calling it "black on black crime". Certainly I can second the crime part.. 

Caring parents like her don't have years to fix the system. Their problem is a TODAY problem. And they don't want to hear about Bush or dead Kennedys or political excuses. They need a REFUND for the fraudulent actions of the school system. They need CHOICE today..


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## Tank (Jul 7, 2011)

It's racist to expect black children to perform academically on the same level as other races.


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## Flopper (Jul 7, 2011)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Flopper said:
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> > We put way too much emphasis on test scores. We reward or punish teachers, principals, schools, and districts based on test scores.  As a result teachers teach kids how to pass the test.
> ...


Elementary school curriculum is built around the basics, reading, writing, and arithmetic.  History, science, geography, and other subjects are supplemental.  This is as it should be.  We tried some years ago to teach a broader curriculum.  This resulted in kids slipping below grade level in reading and math.  Before we teach a lot of social studies, we should make sure the kids have the basics down.


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## mudwhistle (Jul 7, 2011)

Avatar4321 said:


> America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta - Yahoo! News
> 
> What ever happened to the day when teachers actually cared about their students? Please tell me we still have some left.



It's things like this that could turn Atlanta into another Detroit.


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## Dont Taz Me Bro (Jul 7, 2011)

It all comes back to the parents, folks.  Until parents once again begin taking primary responsibility for the education of their kids the public school system will continue to fail us.


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## freedombecki (Jul 7, 2011)

I'm truly sorry to hear of this scandal in one of the largest school districts in the USA. One of my parents was a schoolteacher, but he used his off hours to train his super math students to win the interscholastic league slide rule contests (back when the hand-held calculator was not around). Every year, he took his contestants and alternates to the regional levels, where they won, hands down. He knew how to reach his students, get them to love math, and help them win. He stayed in touch with them after they graduated, and some of them became technology CEOs, engineers in the best companies, and great human beings.

I pray that teachers who inspire their children to be the best they can be can also let them know they are just as good as anybody else, and that they can win in life with what they learn in simple subjects of every discipline.

I pray that Atlanta's present misfortune will be used to improve the chances of every Atlanta child who can be enticed into learning, loving vocabulary and books, loving number sense, art, science, and expression of their knowledge into coherent thought for the betterment of themselves and others.

As my dad told all his students, "Don't be afraid of mistakes. You really don't learn  until you make a mistake and have to correct it. Mistakes make us learn to do better."

May the spirit of true learning retake our fellow Americans in Atlanta schools.


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## Moonglow (Jul 7, 2011)

I am just glad the teachers did not catch me cheating, oh, there were several references but, since I was a star studded football player, the let it pass.


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## Jackson (Jul 11, 2011)

Tank said:


> It's racist to expect black children to perform academically on the same level as other races.



Everyone should be expected to perform on the same level.  No one is exempt from giving their best as no one race is of lower intelligence.


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## Jackson (Jul 11, 2011)

When giving the standardized tests, it should be done be proctors.  The teachers should never touch the tests nor give the tests.


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## Ravi (Jul 11, 2011)

editec said:


> What was their motive to do this?
> 
> To make the school look better than it is?
> 
> ...


Red state.


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## Jackson (Jul 11, 2011)

Flopper said:


> We put way too much emphasis on test scores. We reward or punish teachers, principals, schools, and districts based on test scores.  As a result teachers teach kids how to pass the test.
> 
> The first year a new test is introduced, the kids usually do poorly.  Each year they do better because the teachers learn what material is on the test and they teach to the test.  After a few years the district is congratulating the staff on doing such a good job.  It's nonsense.



The test evaluate the foundations of each subject.  If the teachers weren't teaching that before, they weren't teaching.  If the scores became better the longer the tests were given, that means the teachers finally got serious about teaching.


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## bodecea (Jul 11, 2011)

RetiredGySgt said:


> Flopper said:
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> > We put way too much emphasis on test scores. We reward or punish teachers, principals, schools, and districts based on test scores.  As a result teachers teach kids how to pass the test.
> ...



That is due to pressure from parents.   It is the parents who cry for no homework and 'self esteem' grades.



> Did you know History is no longer taught until High School? Before that it is Social Studies where they learn about "different cultures" Instead of facts about historical events and actual history they learn about what people thought about and other nonsense.



How odd...then my daughter's History of the world from Early man to the Age of Exploration in 6th / 7th grade didn't happen and her American History in 8th grade also didn't happen?


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## bodecea (Jul 11, 2011)

Jackson said:


> Tank said:
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> > It's racist to expect black children to perform academically on the same level as other races.
> ...



I know that in California, the Special Ed students are expected to take the same standardized test as everyone else.   They may be 13 years old with the IQ to read at the 2nd grade level, but they still take the 8th grade tests.


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## Jackson (Jul 11, 2011)

bodecea said:


> Jackson said:
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And that is wrong if they are of a lower IQ.  However, if they are are just Learning Disabled, average and above IQ, the same test as the normal classroom is appropriate. 

 It depends on what type of Special Ed. it is.  But the students with lower IQ's do take the normed age tests, and that is indeed wrong.  SBD is Special Ed. (Sever Behavior Disorder) and should take the same test as their peers in the classroom if their IQ is average or above.  But it's not, they are not accomodated always that way.

Special Ed. Should not be tested when IQ's have been shown to be below 70.  That's all there is.


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## Tank (Jul 11, 2011)




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## Flopper (Jul 11, 2011)

Jackson said:


> Flopper said:
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> > We put way too much emphasis on test scores. We reward or punish teachers, principals, schools, and districts based on test scores.  As a result teachers teach kids how to pass the test.
> ...


If scores improve, that can mean teachers are doing a better job of teaching the subject but it also can mean that teachers are teaching to the test which is quite different.


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## JakeStarkey (Jul 11, 2011)

Avatar4321 said:


> America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta - Yahoo! News
> 
> What ever happened to the day when teachers actually cared about their students? Please tell me we still have some left.



Ignorant statement and inaccurate assumption.

Teachers overwhelmingly care for their students and their success, much more than many parents, I suspect.

Fire the teachers, and if criminal offenses were committed, prosecute.


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## Squrl (Jul 11, 2011)

athletes don't really cheat, but certainly do not do the same amount of work, and are not held to the same standards.


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## Jackson (Jul 11, 2011)

Flopper said:


> Jackson said:
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Not really.  Since the test evaluates the foundation of skills, the teachers are now teaching what they are supposed to be teaching and publishers are offering more practice.


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## Tank (Jul 11, 2011)

Just as the test standards for police and firemen have had to be lowered for blacks, so should this test.


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## JakeStarkey (Jul 11, 2011)

Jackson said:


> Flopper said:
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You are wrong, Jackson.  The students are scrimming for pat answers instead of also critically thinking about the material, they have developed real issues in developing good composition skills, and if we created powerful bureaucracies at state and federal levels that the education fascists (onethinkers) of the far right are corrupting.


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## JakeStarkey (Jul 11, 2011)

Two of the critical elements for promotion consideration in our business are (1) critical thinking skills that (2) can be assessed in speech, composition, and computation environments.  We want executives, administrators, and staff that creatively 'compose' in writing, thinking, and computing.

The current 'No Child Left Behind' high-skills testing format does not inform real learning in this country's public education systems.  Good teachers and instructors have to work around NCLB.  We identify those people at the high schools and colleges.  We always vet our applicants' assessments with these people.  We have the best work force in three states, clearly.


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## JakeStarkey (Jul 11, 2011)

See, that works for you, Tank, otherwise you could not pass your drivers license exam.


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## ShackledNation (Jul 11, 2011)

Thankfully these bad teachers will keep their jobs. The unions will make sure of it.


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## Care4all (Jul 11, 2011)

flacaltenn said:


> Thanks Tank:
> 
> God bless that woman for calling it "black on black crime". Certainly I can second the crime part..
> 
> Caring parents like her don't have years to fix the system. Their problem is a TODAY problem. And they don't want to hear about Bush or dead Kennedys or political excuses. They need a REFUND for the fraudulent actions of the school system. They need *CHOICE *today..


are private schools (or home schoolers) required to take the same tests that public schools are required to take/give in order to get tax payer's money?


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## Ravi (Jul 11, 2011)

Care4all said:


> flacaltenn said:
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No, they aren't. They use the Iowa tests, I believe. At least here. They are not required to participate in the No Child Left Behind boloney.


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## Care4all (Jul 11, 2011)

Ravi said:


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so we force the no child left behind testing on public schools, but pay via choice/vouchers for students to go to private schools that are NOT forced to follow no child left behind testing?

doesn't make sense to me?


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## AllieBaba (Jul 11, 2011)

I don't think that's correct. 

I thought home schooled kids took the same tests.

This calls for google!


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## random3434 (Jul 11, 2011)

Here Care, read these links:

NCLB Guide for Operators and Developers

Homeschooling in an NCLB Society

Non-Public Education School Choice Fact Sheet -- Non-Public Education: A Vital Part of U.S. K-12 Education

Homeschool Testing - Order CAT5, ITBS and More: Where to Find Standardized Tests for Homeschoolers | Suite101.com


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## random3434 (Jul 11, 2011)

JakeStarkey said:


> Avatar4321 said:
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> > America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta - Yahoo! News
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Agree 100%


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## manifold (Jul 11, 2011)

The key takeaway here is that 178 people is waaaay too many to include in a conspiracy to cheat and/or commit a crime.  Whenever possible, stick with me, myself and I.  But if expansion is necessary, at least make sure you can trust the additional conspirators you're bringing in.

Anyone that thought they could get away with this is clinically retarded.


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## Ravi (Jul 11, 2011)

Care4all said:


> Ravi said:
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Yeah, it is pretty stupid when you put it that way.

My kids were in private school until 9th grade and they didn't have to take those stupid tests until high school. The entire school year for public schools was reformatted to accommodate the testing as was the curriculum. 

I have yet to meet a teacher or a student that thinks the tests are a good idea.


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## Ravi (Jul 11, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> I don't think that's correct.
> 
> I thought home schooled kids took the same tests.
> 
> This calls for google!


My niece was homeschooled. She didn't have to take the NCLB tests.

It is possible that it varies from state to state.


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## AllieBaba (Jul 11, 2011)

Ok, so the feeling I'm getting from internet stuff and what I've picked up at budget meetings (like once or twice a year) is that homeschooled kids work with the school district, and ... it seems that the educators (parents) have to submit certain forms or narratives that contain particular wording and which affirm that the child has made adequate academic progress...and this has to be co-signed, essentially, by the school admin from the district in which the child is schooled.

Does that sound about right?


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## AllieBaba (Jul 11, 2011)

Ravi said:


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Of course the students don't think they are, Ravi. That is a given.

Teachers, they don't like them because it provides an overview of the job they're doing.

As the teachers in Atlanta figured out. Hence the cheating. It's that old relativism cropping up again...lying is bad for YOU but okay for ME.


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## Ravi (Jul 11, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> Ravi said:
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Actually, it does no such thing.

It may or may not prove that teachers can teach kids to take tests. Which, IMO, is one skill they learn anyway. 

It may also show that the teachers the kids had up until that year may or may not have been good teachers. It says nothing really about the current teacher.


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## Care4all (Jul 11, 2011)

i don't think home schooled children should be required to take NCLB tests....i don't think they are getting tax voucher money to school their kids....are they?


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## Flopper (Jul 11, 2011)

Jackson said:


> Flopper said:
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I think standardize tests are pretty good job at evaluating student progress, as long as the students are not overly coached.  If a teacher is very familiar with the types of questions that will on a test and spends the time to coach the students, it will make a significant difference in test scores. That doesn't mean the student really understands the underlying principals.  It just means they can supply the answers to the test questions.  

Bureaucrats&#8217; love standardized tests for determining student, teacher, and school performance, but there is a lot more to performance evaluation than just test scores.  Just a few problem kids in a class can make the class average look really bad.   I know of one case where a middle school principal actively tried to get problem kids to drop out just to improve school test scores. They&#8217;re also a lot of smart kids that know the material but choke up when taking test.  Standardize tests don&#8217;t tell the whole story.  There're just a tool.


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## KissMy (Jul 11, 2011)

This pisses me off! They were forced to cheat or lose their jobs. Why not pressure them to actually teach or lose their jobs?

Atlanta Cheating Teachers


> Fells told ABC News that *teachers who refused to cheat were punished and pushed out.* She resigned voluntarily in 2008 partly due to the pressure to cheat. The school district said it is now firing all teachers and administrators implicated in the report.


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## chanel (Jul 11, 2011)

Many of the students don't take the test seriously. They are told they will be promoted no matter what. How about a little accountability there as well?


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## Ravi (Jul 11, 2011)

chanel said:


> Many of the students don't take the test seriously. They are told they will be promoted no matter what. How about a little accountability there as well?


Why should they take it seriously when it is a test to score the school itself?


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## Tank (Jul 11, 2011)

The white and Asian kids take it seriously.


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## AllieBaba (Jul 11, 2011)

Ravi said:


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Yeah, more relativism.

In this specific case, it shows the teachers are liars and cheaters.


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## JakeStarkey (Jul 11, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


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Out of the mouth of babes she condemns herself.  Yes, oh yes, AllieBaba, oh my yes, you are perhaps the biggest liar and cheater of the board.


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## AllieBaba (Jul 11, 2011)

JakeStarkey said:


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## Care4all (Jul 11, 2011)

KissMy said:


> This pisses me off! They were forced to cheat or lose their jobs. Why not pressure them to actually teach or lose their jobs?
> 
> Atlanta Cheating Teachers
> 
> ...


B I N G O!  it pisses me off too!


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## JakeStarkey (Jul 11, 2011)

A cousin of mine taught at the high school for 31 years, retiring last year.  All of those 31 years he sent home Parent Cards along with Report Cards.  He told every parent who came to the principal's office that they should work harder with their kids on the school work.  He never backed down.


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## AllieBaba (Jul 12, 2011)

Wow..that's really..irrelevant.


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## Ravi (Jul 12, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


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 When are you going back to school? I think your brain is atrophying from lack of use.


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## chanel (Jul 12, 2011)

JakeStarkey said:


> A cousin of mine taught at the high school for 31 years, retiring last year.  All of those 31 years he sent home Parent Cards along with Report Cards.  He told every parent who came to the principal's office that they should work harder with their kids on the school work.  He never backed down.



I met a math teacher who said a mom wanted a phone call for every missed homework assignment.  He told her "I have 140 kids.  You have one.  How about if you call me when he doesn't do his HOMEwork at HOME?"


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## xsited1 (Jul 12, 2011)

Avatar4321 said:


> America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta - Yahoo! News
> 
> What ever happened to the day when teachers actually cared about their students? Please tell me we still have some left.



What a mess.  There is no excuse for this, but I wonder if the No Child Left Behind Act has anything to do with this?  I wonder because many of my friends who send their kids to Public Schools complain that the kids spend an inordinate amount of time preparing for taking tests to achieve a high score to meet Federal guidelines.  Any Act whose chief author is Ted Kennedy is suspect in my book.


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## chanel (Jul 12, 2011)

It is inexcusable; but totally understandable.  A classic example of the "ends justifying the means". Our district strives for a 100% graduation rate.  There is unbelievable pressure on 12th grade teachers to "pass everyone".  Those that don't fall in line are "guilted" and/or bullied by the students, parents, guidance counselors, etc.  Who wants that?  And does it really matter if a kid is given a H.S. diploma, which many feel is "just a piece of paper"?  

Professional ethics are not valued.  Numbers are.


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## JakeStarkey (Jul 12, 2011)

chanel said:


> It is inexcusable; but totally understandable.  A classic example of the "ends justifying the means". Our district strives for a 100% graduation rate.  There is unbelievable pressure on 12th grade teachers to "pass everyone".  Those that don't fall in line are "guilted" and/or bullied by the students, parents, guidance counselors, etc.  Who wants that?  And does it really matter if a kid is given a H.S. diploma, which many feel is "just a piece of paper"?
> 
> Professional ethics are not valued.  Numbers are.



We fight those attitudes as hard as we can, but we also are on our administrators and principals to improve the rates.  That has led, in some cases, to principals and vice-principals, who look at their jobs as entitlements, to sweep matters under the rug or to try to blame teachers.


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## xsited1 (Jul 12, 2011)

chanel said:


> It is inexcusable; but totally understandable.  A classic example of the "ends justifying the means". Our district strives for a 100% graduation rate.  There is unbelievable pressure on 12th grade teachers to "pass everyone".  Those that don't fall in line are "guilted" and/or bullied by the students, parents, guidance counselors, etc.  Who wants that?  And does it really matter if a kid is given a H.S. diploma, which many feel is "just a piece of paper"?
> 
> Professional ethics are not valued.  Numbers are.



You seem to be echoing what I just posted.  My information comes from conversations I've had with a few parents who send their kids to Public School, but you're in the trenches so I would put significantly more weight on your opinion.  Should NCLB be repealed or is there a bigger problem at work?


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## AllieBaba (Jul 12, 2011)

Ravi said:


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Er..I'm in school, Ravster. Had a short break of a few weeks.

Which has nothing to do with being able to recognize the fact that these teachers are liars and cheaters. 

I see you're again supporting the liars and cheaters. Way to go!


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## chanel (Jul 12, 2011)

NCLB was full of good intentions.  But it does not compare "apples to apples".  Public schools are run by the states.  Either we have a nationalized curriculum with a nationalized test; or we don't. Federal regs; state regs; and local school boards are often in conflict.  

Here's an example of how flawed NCLB is.  Every year each "subgroup" must make AYP (annual yearly progress).  If five"poor" "Black" "special ed" kids fail the test, it is counted THREE times - once for each subgroup.  Five kids failing the test can put an entire school with a 99% pass rate into the category of "in need of improvement".  Not only does it put the school in jeopardy of losing funding; millions of dollars must be spent to show "improvement".  But the "improvement" is only measured by testing an entirely different group of kids the following year.   I can't tell you how many workshops and new "methods" have been forced upon us because of a handful of kids.  No one really expects us to get anything out of it.  It just "looks" like we are doing something. It's a fucking racket.


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## xsited1 (Jul 12, 2011)

chanel said:


> NCLB was full of good intentions.  But it does not compare "apples to apples".  Public schools are run by the states.  Either we have a nationalized curriculum with a nationalized test; or we don't. Federal regs; state regs; and local school boards are often in conflict.
> 
> Here's an example of how flawed NCLB is.  Every year each "subgroup" must make AYP (annual yearly progress).  If five"poor" "Black" "special ed" kids fail the test, it is counted THREE times - once for each subgroup.  Five kids failing the test can put an entire school with a 99% pass rate into the category of "in need of improvement".  Not only does it put the school in jeopardy of losing funding; millions of dollars must be spent to show "improvement".  But the "improvement" is only measured by testing an entirely different group of kids the following year.   I can't tell you how many workshops and new "methods" have been forced upon us because of a handful of kids.  No one really expects us to get anything out of it.  It just "looks" like we are doing something. It's a fucking racket.



Wow.  Well, based on your post I'm going to go out on a limb and say you're not too fond of NCLB.    As I've said before, any Act whose chief author is Ted Kennedy is suspect in my book.  America can and should do better.


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## editec (Jul 12, 2011)

There's nothing wrong with standardized testing if the test truly measure something real.

What may be wrong is how the schools are being measured based on the testing outcomes.

I hate to sound like an elitist, but the difference between the average kids going to a school in a tony burb like Cos Cobb, CT, versus the average student going to a shithole school in Bridgeport CT _is vast._

And the difference for the schools' median test scores is to be substantially different regardless of how well the teaching staff does its job_ in either school._

I've taught in inner city schools, and I also taught in very expensive private schools.

Believe me when I tell you that what the kids bring to the school is far more important to standardized test outcomes than anything about the staff at that school.

It's a pleasure to teach AP kids, and its a Herculian task to teach kids who are just not interested in getting an education.

And usually when kids are not with the program you'll discover that their attitude is reflected by their parents' indifference to school and education, too.

You can only lead the horse to water, you cannot make it drink.


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## chanel (Jul 12, 2011)

Exactly editec.  You may be interested in this article I posted in another thread:  Firing Line: The Grand Coalition Against Teachers | Truthout



> Ed reformers have only one response to this reality: anyone who brings up out-of-school factors such as poverty is both defending the status quo of public education and claiming that schools can do nothing to overcome the life circumstances of poor children. The response is silly and, by now, tiresome. *Some teachers will certainly be able to help compensate for the family backgrounds and out-of-school environments of some students. But the majority of poor children will not get all the help they need: their numbers are too great, their circumstances too severe, and resources too limited. *Imagine teachers from excellent suburban public schools transferring en masse to low-performing, inner-city public schools. Would these teachers have as much success as they did in the suburbs? Would they be able to overcome the backgrounds of 15.6 million poor children? Even with bonus pay, would they stay with the job for more than a few years? Common sense and experience say no, and yet the reformers insist they can fix public schools by fixing the teachers.


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## AllieBaba (Jul 12, 2011)

So what are you saying, chanel? That it's pointless to attempt to reform our education system so it's more effective? We should just accept that certain populations aren't going to do well, and not ask teachers to meet any sort of standard when it comes to teaching?


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## Ravi (Jul 12, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > AllieBaba said:
> ...


Don't be silly. The teachers cheated and deserve to be fired.

I was discussing the merits of the test.

You suck at constructing strawmen.


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## JakeStarkey (Jul 12, 2011)

Ravi said:


> AllieBaba said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...



She bridles at the criticism that  her beliefs are, _ipso facto_, not facts. If she is in college, that is one that does not teach critical thinking skills.


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## Ravi (Jul 12, 2011)

JakeStarkey said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > AllieBaba said:
> ...



 I think she's going to Bible college.


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## random3434 (Jul 12, 2011)

chanel said:


> NCLB was full of good intentions.  But it does not compare "apples to apples".  Public schools are run by the states.  Either we have a nationalized curriculum with a nationalized test; or we don't. Federal regs; state regs; and local school boards are often in conflict.
> 
> Here's an example of how flawed NCLB is.  Every year each "subgroup" must make AYP (annual yearly progress).  If five"poor" "Black" "special ed" kids fail the test, it is counted THREE times - once for each subgroup.  Five kids failing the test can put an entire school with a 99% pass rate into the category of "in need of improvement".  Not only does it put the school in jeopardy of losing funding; millions of dollars must be spent to show "improvement".  But the "improvement" is only measured by testing an entirely different group of kids the following year.   I can't tell you how many workshops and new "methods" have been forced upon us because of a handful of kids.  No one really expects us to get anything out of it.  It just "looks" like we are doing something. It's a fucking racket.



Let's not forget the special needs kids. I had a third grader two years ago that HAD to take the test, he had an IQ of 56.  He had no idea what to do, but God love him, he tried. 

NCLB needs to be thrown out or changed. Trust me, teachers are NOT for it, be them libs or cons or middle of the road. 

It came into effect in 2001, when GWBush was in office.  Obama's pledge was to change it, but that hasn't happened yet that I know of, which pisses me off.

*



			NCLB was originally proposed by the administration of George W. Bush immediately after he took office.
The bill, shepherded through the Senate by co-author Senator Ted Kennedy, received overwhelming bipartisan support in Congress.
		
Click to expand...

*

 Get rid of it, or overhaul it is my opinion.


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## xsited1 (Jul 12, 2011)

Echo Zulu said:


> chanel said:
> 
> 
> > NCLB was full of good intentions.  But it does not compare "apples to apples".  Public schools are run by the states.  Either we have a nationalized curriculum with a nationalized test; or we don't. Federal regs; state regs; and local school boards are often in conflict.
> ...



NCLB should never have happened.  It was GWB "reaching across the aisle" which was a huge mistake.  Ted Kennedy had good intentions, but oh what a huge mistake!


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## Tank (Jul 12, 2011)

The Widening Racial Scoring Gap on the SAT College Admissions Test 

The racial scoring gap on the SAT test has now become wider than has been the case for the past two decades. Many believe that in the years to come the gap may grow smaller, not because blacks are catching up to whites in educational achievement, but rather because the test makers are adding a writing component to the test that may be manipulated to lessen racial differences and therefore reduce public criticisms of the test. 

The Widening Racial Scoring Gap on the SAT College Admissions Test


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## Flopper (Jul 12, 2011)

What so many people don't realize is that teaching, can be a really hard job, particular in the intercity schools.  The districts put a lot pressure on teachers in schools scoring below grade levels on standardize tests.  Usually these are intercity schools, where many of the students have little interest in learning and parents are not very supportive.  These schools offer a tremendous challenge for our teachers.  Unfortunately many of these teachers burn out after just a few years and seek the better schools in the suburbs.


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## AllieBaba (Jul 12, 2011)

JakeStarkey said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > AllieBaba said:
> ...


 
Er...I was responding to RAvi's ad hominem attack..that's a straw man?

Lol.

PS..I got an A in critical thinking. Thank you, thank you, I'll be here all week.


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## Tank (Jul 12, 2011)

Flopper said:


> What so many people don't realize is that teaching, can be a really hard job, particular in the intercity schools.  The districts put a lot pressure on teachers in schools scoring below grade levels on standardize tests.  Usually these are intercity schools, where many of the students have little interest in learning and parents are not very supportive.  These schools offer a tremendous challenge for our teachers.  Unfortunately many of these teachers burn out after just a few years and seek the better schools in the suburbs.


Intercity = Blacks


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## initforme (Jul 13, 2011)

"If scores improve, that can mean teachers are doing a better job of teaching the subject but it also can mean that teachers are teaching to the test which is quite different. "


Well if a teacher is going to be rated on test scores then why would they not be teaching to the test.   If I were their administrator I WOULD FORCE THEM TO TEACH SOLEY TO THE TEST if that is how my school is evaluated.   A pure no brainer here.


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## Flopper (Jul 13, 2011)

initforme said:


> "If scores improve, that can mean teachers are doing a better job of teaching the subject but it also can mean that teachers are teaching to the test which is quite different. "
> 
> 
> Well if a teacher is going to be rated on test scores then why would they not be teaching to the test.   If I were their administrator I WOULD FORCE THEM TO TEACH SOLEY TO THE TEST if that is how my school is evaluated.   A pure no brainer here.


Some administrators do just that.  They push teachers to spend inordinate amounts of time drilling students on question types that are most likely to appear on the test.  This may improve test scores but it doesn't mean the students have a better understanding of the subject.  They are simply able to answer a few more questions correctly.

Hours of class time spent preparing and taking these test would be better spent actually teaching the students.  The tests rarely benefit the student, rather they benefit administrators who use them as a crutch in evaluation schools, principals, and teachers.  It's really not hard to tell who the really good and bad teachers are and you certainly don't have to waste tens of thousands of classroom hours to do so.


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## JakeStarkey (Jul 13, 2011)

Teaching critical thinking skills, objectively evaluating material and ideas, searching out the evidence and vetting it for bias and clarity, learning to vet one's own bias, then teaching how to write powerful thematic and emphatic essays would be far better than teaching to a test.

initforme's handle certainly instructs us to the type of character of this individual.


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## initforme (Jul 19, 2011)

"Teaching critical thinking skills, objectively evaluating material and ideas, searching out the evidence and vetting it for bias and clarity, learning to vet one's own bias, then teaching how to write powerful thematic and emphatic essays would be far better than teaching to a test."

Of course it would be.  Thats the point.  But when you are going to be evaluated mostly on test scores then what choice does a teacher have?   

As far as my handle, I live in america.  America is now purely all about materialistic wealth and greed.   This is undeniable.  We call ourselves a nation of Christians but our culture surely doesnt resemble that.  Thats what my handle is all about.


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## St.Blues (Jul 19, 2011)

They're just following orders.......... What a bunch of sellouts. Fuck em all.


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## JakeStarkey (Jul 19, 2011)

initforme said:


> "Teaching critical thinking skills, objectively evaluating material and ideas, searching out the evidence and vetting it for bias and clarity, learning to vet one's own bias, then teaching how to write powerful thematic and emphatic essays would be far better than teaching to a test."
> 
> Of course it would be.  Thats the point.  But when you are going to be evaluated mostly on test scores then what choice does a teacher have?
> 
> As far as my handle, I live in america.  America is now purely all about materialistic wealth and greed.   This is undeniable.  We call ourselves a nation of Christians but our culture surely doesnt resemble that.  Thats what my handle is all about.



Some of the smaller school districts manage to try to do right, if the parents are actively involved and know what they are about with their children's education.

America has always been about materialism and acquisition of wealth, and we Christians fall very short of what we preach.  We are witnessing big government by both major parties concerning education.  Tea Party is big government, too, when it whines about "moral values" and everybody has to be the same.


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## Patrick2 (Jul 19, 2011)

The government school system is rotten to its core.  We need a privatized system before this country goes down the drain.


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## JakeStarkey (Jul 19, 2011)

You have no way to competently and fairly finance your pie in the sky dream, Patrick.  If you don't like it, then pony up and either home school or send your kiddos to private school.


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## Flopper (Jul 19, 2011)

Patrick2 said:


> The government school system is rotten to its core.  We need a privatized system before this country goes down the drain.


80% of the children in the world have access to some form of free public education.  The countries you'll find with no public education are among the poorest in the world.  Public Education in America began long before the founding of the nation.  It's supporters included George Washington, Jefferson, and Franklin.     

A public educational system, with all it's faults is certainly better than the alternative.  

http://www.hrw.org/legacy/campaigns/crp/promises/education.html


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