# Nobody is perfect?



## vasuderatorrent

aris2chat said:


> God of the bible is not perfect.
> 
> humans are not supposed to be perfect, no life form is.



Nobody is perfect. You have probably heard this statement a lot. This is probably true but is it a beneficial thing to believe?

I learned to spell my name when I was a kid. I bet if I was asked to spell it 1,000 times that I could spell it perfectly every time. This makes me perfect.

As a child I learned multiplication tables. I bet if I was asked to multiple 3x8 1,000 times that I could come up with the correct answer every time. This makes me perfect.

My question is this: Can this level of perfection be applied to more complex tasks if a level of mastery is achieved? Can an accountant file 1,000 tax returns accurately every single time? Can a secretary file all 1,000 documents into the correct file every single time? Can a mail man deliver every letter exactly where it is supposed to go without error every single day?

Is it a worthwhile endeavor to even try? Is it emotionally harmful to attempt to achieve perfection in a work situation? Is it economically lazy to give up on the possibility of doing your job 100% perfect? Is it detrimental to productivity to try to be perfect because perfection requires a minimum amount of output. If nothing is done, no mistakes are made. Thus less work leads to more perfection.  More work would lead to less perfection.

If we can be perfect with simple task, why can't we be perfect with more complex tasks? Doesn't anybody understand where I am going with this thought?


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## skye

LOL.... nobody is perfect indeed.

What else can we add?

Not a word...not one.


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## vasuderatorrent

skye said:


> LOL.... nobody is perfect indeed.
> 
> What else can we add?
> 
> Not a word...not one.



Yet you managed to add 14 words to the discussion.


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## skye

vasuderatorrent said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
> 
> LOL.... nobody is perfect indeed.
> 
> What else can we add?
> 
> Not a word...not one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yet you managed to add 14 words to the discussion.
Click to expand...



yes I did... but when did I say I was perfect?


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## skye

haha


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## vasuderatorrent

skye said:


> yes I did... but when did I say I was perfect?



That is a fair point.  You get an A+.


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## skye

thanks   ^^^


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## Asclepias

vasuderatorrent said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> 
> God of the bible is not perfect.
> 
> humans are not supposed to be perfect, no life form is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody is perfect. You have probably heard this statement a lot. This is probably true but is it a beneficial thing to believe?
> 
> I learned to spell my name when I was a kid. I bet if I was asked to spell it 1,000 times that I could spell it perfectly every time. This makes me perfect.
> 
> As a child I learned multiplication tables. I bet if I was asked to multiple 3x8 1,000 times that I could come up with the correct answer every time. This makes me perfect.
> 
> My question is this: Can this level of perfection be applied to more complex tasks if a level of mastery is achieved? Can an accountant file 1,000 tax returns accurately every single time? Can a secretary file all 1,000 documents into the correct file every single time? Can a mail man deliver every letter exactly where it is supposed to go without error every single day?
> 
> Is it a worthwhile endeavor to even try? Is it emotionally harmful to attempt to achieve perfection in a work situation? Is it economically lazy to give up on the possibility of doing your job 100% perfect? Is it detrimental to productivity to try to be perfect because perfection requires a minimum amount of output. If nothing is done, no mistakes are made. Thus less work leads to more perfection.  More work would lead to less perfection.
> 
> If we can be perfect with simple task, why can't we be perfect with more complex tasks? Doesn't anybody understand where I am going with this thought?
Click to expand...

Practice makes perfect.


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## midcan5

I will probably disagree with where you are going .... but often the phrase is an excuse for bad behavior. In children we may excuse a mistake if we feel the child takes it too serious, and say no one is perfect but.... For adults the phrase comes to be a meaningless cliche. Having managed large IT systems, if someone told me after a serious problem, 'no one is perfect' I may scream and I am a calm person. lol


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## koshergrl

Christ was perfect. I have always believed mathematics is the most direct reflection we have today of the face and mind of God.


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## Asclepias

midcan5 said:


> I will probably disagree with where you are going .... but often the phrase is an excuse for bad behavior. In children we may excuse a mistake if we feel the child takes it too serious, and say no one is perfect but.... For adults the phrase comes to be a meaningless cliche. Having managed large IT systems, if someone told me after a serious problem, 'no one is perfect' I may scream and I am a calm person. lol


I work in IT as well so I agree. You develop processes to avoid errors, test, refine your process and test again in a ongoing loop. Eventually you will hit perfection. The imperfection comes when you ignore that process or miss a step.


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## aris2chat

Asclepias said:


> vasuderatorrent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> 
> God of the bible is not perfect.
> 
> humans are not supposed to be perfect, no life form is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody is perfect. You have probably heard this statement a lot. This is probably true but is it a beneficial thing to believe?
> 
> I learned to spell my name when I was a kid. I bet if I was asked to spell it 1,000 times that I could spell it perfectly every time. This makes me perfect.
> 
> As a child I learned multiplication tables. I bet if I was asked to multiple 3x8 1,000 times that I could come up with the correct answer every time. This makes me perfect.
> 
> My question is this: Can this level of perfection be applied to more complex tasks if a level of mastery is achieved? Can an accountant file 1,000 tax returns accurately every single time? Can a secretary file all 1,000 documents into the correct file every single time? Can a mail man deliver every letter exactly where it is supposed to go without error every single day?
> 
> Is it a worthwhile endeavor to even try? Is it emotionally harmful to attempt to achieve perfection in a work situation? Is it economically lazy to give up on the possibility of doing your job 100% perfect? Is it detrimental to productivity to try to be perfect because perfection requires a minimum amount of output. If nothing is done, no mistakes are made. Thus less work leads to more perfection.  More work would lead to less perfection.
> 
> If we can be perfect with simple task, why can't we be perfect with more complex tasks? Doesn't anybody understand where I am going with this thought?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Practice makes perfect.
Click to expand...


Practice might make improvement but not perfect.  There is no perfection.  Perfect would be absolute oblivion.  No beginning, no end, no change, nothing.


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## aris2chat

koshergrl said:


> Christ was perfect. I have always believed mathematics is the most direct reflection we have today of the face and mind of God.



If death and illness are god's will, why did he heal or raise the dead?
If he was perfect, why was his body able to be killed?
If he was perfect, why did he disobey his parents?
If you read other tales of his life as a child, why did he lie or kill if he was so perfect?
If he was so perfect, why did he require others to die or kill in his name?


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## aris2chat

Asclepias said:


> midcan5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I will probably disagree with where you are going .... but often the phrase is an excuse for bad behavior. In children we may excuse a mistake if we feel the child takes it too serious, and say no one is perfect but.... For adults the phrase comes to be a meaningless cliche. Having managed large IT systems, if someone told me after a serious problem, 'no one is perfect' I may scream and I am a calm person. lol
> 
> 
> 
> I work in IT as well so I agree. You develop processes to avoid errors, test, refine your process and test again in a ongoing loop. Eventually you will hit perfection. The imperfection comes when you ignore that process or miss a step.
Click to expand...


and someone smarter or with more determination will find a way around your 'perfection'.  There will eventually be something more perfect created by someone else in the future.  Some improvement, something better


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## Asclepias

aris2chat said:


> Asclepias said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vasuderatorrent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> 
> God of the bible is not perfect.
> 
> humans are not supposed to be perfect, no life form is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody is perfect. You have probably heard this statement a lot. This is probably true but is it a beneficial thing to believe?
> 
> I learned to spell my name when I was a kid. I bet if I was asked to spell it 1,000 times that I could spell it perfectly every time. This makes me perfect.
> 
> As a child I learned multiplication tables. I bet if I was asked to multiple 3x8 1,000 times that I could come up with the correct answer every time. This makes me perfect.
> 
> My question is this: Can this level of perfection be applied to more complex tasks if a level of mastery is achieved? Can an accountant file 1,000 tax returns accurately every single time? Can a secretary file all 1,000 documents into the correct file every single time? Can a mail man deliver every letter exactly where it is supposed to go without error every single day?
> 
> Is it a worthwhile endeavor to even try? Is it emotionally harmful to attempt to achieve perfection in a work situation? Is it economically lazy to give up on the possibility of doing your job 100% perfect? Is it detrimental to productivity to try to be perfect because perfection requires a minimum amount of output. If nothing is done, no mistakes are made. Thus less work leads to more perfection.  More work would lead to less perfection.
> 
> If we can be perfect with simple task, why can't we be perfect with more complex tasks? Doesn't anybody understand where I am going with this thought?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Practice makes perfect.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Practice might make improvement but not perfect.  There is no perfection.  Perfect would be absolute oblivion.  No beginning, no end, no change, nothing.
Click to expand...

Of course there is perfection. People who have never achieved it have no idea it exists.


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## Asclepias

aris2chat said:


> Asclepias said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> midcan5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I will probably disagree with where you are going .... but often the phrase is an excuse for bad behavior. In children we may excuse a mistake if we feel the child takes it too serious, and say no one is perfect but.... For adults the phrase comes to be a meaningless cliche. Having managed large IT systems, if someone told me after a serious problem, 'no one is perfect' I may scream and I am a calm person. lol
> 
> 
> 
> I work in IT as well so I agree. You develop processes to avoid errors, test, refine your process and test again in a ongoing loop. Eventually you will hit perfection. The imperfection comes when you ignore that process or miss a step.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> and someone smarter or with more determination will find a way around your 'perfection'.  There will eventually be something more perfect created by someone else in the future.  Some improvement, something better
Click to expand...

You cant get more perfect than perfection. You may have a different idea as to what that entails but that doesnt really mean much.


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## aris2chat

Asclepias said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Asclepias said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> midcan5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I will probably disagree with where you are going .... but often the phrase is an excuse for bad behavior. In children we may excuse a mistake if we feel the child takes it too serious, and say no one is perfect but.... For adults the phrase comes to be a meaningless cliche. Having managed large IT systems, if someone told me after a serious problem, 'no one is perfect' I may scream and I am a calm person. lol
> 
> 
> 
> I work in IT as well so I agree. You develop processes to avoid errors, test, refine your process and test again in a ongoing loop. Eventually you will hit perfection. The imperfection comes when you ignore that process or miss a step.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> and someone smarter or with more determination will find a way around your 'perfection'.  There will eventually be something more perfect created by someone else in the future.  Some improvement, something better
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You cant get more perfect than perfection. You may have a different idea as to what that entails but that doesnt really mean much.
Click to expand...


Perfection would mean the end of evolution.  There would be nothing beyond that.  The universe is not perfect so why should you presume humans can ever be?

If god created us with flaws, how can he expect perfection from us?

If the universe has limits then there is no true infinity.  We might try for the perfection but as long as limits exist there will never be anything close to perfection.

We were not perfect when we first stood on two legs and if mankind still exists in a million years we will not have reach perfection then either.

As long as we have needs and desires; a long we strive to be better; as long we have feel love and pain; as long we have have birth and death we cannot be perfect no matter how hard we try.  No god should expect us to be perfect.  We are not gods.


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## vasuderatorrent

aris2chat said:


> Perfection would mean the end of evolution.  There would be nothing beyond that.  The universe is not perfect so why should you presume humans can ever be?
> 
> If god created us with flaws, how can he expect perfection from us?
> 
> If the universe has limits then there is no true infinity.  We might try for the perfection but as long as limits exist there will never be anything close to perfection.
> 
> We were not perfect when we first stood on two legs and if mankind still exists in a million years we will not have reach perfection then either.
> 
> As long as we have needs and desires; a long we strive to be better; as long we have feel love and pain; as long we have have birth and death we cannot be perfect no matter how hard we try.  No god should expect us to be perfect.  We are not gods.



Let's imagine that I have created a religion that only has one rule.  That rule is, "Never murder human beings".

Could you be perfect in that regard?  Most people could maintain that level of perfection for life.


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## Asclepias

aris2chat said:


> Asclepias said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Asclepias said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> midcan5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I will probably disagree with where you are going .... but often the phrase is an excuse for bad behavior. In children we may excuse a mistake if we feel the child takes it too serious, and say no one is perfect but.... For adults the phrase comes to be a meaningless cliche. Having managed large IT systems, if someone told me after a serious problem, 'no one is perfect' I may scream and I am a calm person. lol
> 
> 
> 
> I work in IT as well so I agree. You develop processes to avoid errors, test, refine your process and test again in a ongoing loop. Eventually you will hit perfection. The imperfection comes when you ignore that process or miss a step.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> and someone smarter or with more determination will find a way around your 'perfection'.  There will eventually be something more perfect created by someone else in the future.  Some improvement, something better
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You cant get more perfect than perfection. You may have a different idea as to what that entails but that doesnt really mean much.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Perfection would mean the end of evolution.  There would be nothing beyond that.  The universe is not perfect so why should you presume humans can ever be?
> 
> If god created us with flaws, how can he expect perfection from us?
> 
> If the universe has limits then there is no true infinity.  We might try for the perfection but as long as limits exist there will never be anything close to perfection.
> 
> We were not perfect when we first stood on two legs and if mankind still exists in a million years we will not have reach perfection then either.
> 
> As long as we have needs and desires; a long we strive to be better; as long we have feel love and pain; as long we have have birth and death we cannot be perfect no matter how hard we try.  No god should expect us to be perfect.  We are not gods.
Click to expand...

I disagree. Again perfection and what it entails may be the point of disagreement. God, or religions concept of god, is a fable. The real god made us perfect and expects nothing from us. Maybe we should get a consensus on what perfection means before continuing this.


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## aris2chat

Asclepias said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Asclepias said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> midcan5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I will probably disagree with where you are going .... but often the phrase is an excuse for bad behavior. In children we may excuse a mistake if we feel the child takes it too serious, and say no one is perfect but.... For adults the phrase comes to be a meaningless cliche. Having managed large IT systems, if someone told me after a serious problem, 'no one is perfect' I may scream and I am a calm person. lol
> 
> 
> 
> I work in IT as well so I agree. You develop processes to avoid errors, test, refine your process and test again in a ongoing loop. Eventually you will hit perfection. The imperfection comes when you ignore that process or miss a step.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> and someone smarter or with more determination will find a way around your 'perfection'.  There will eventually be something more perfect created by someone else in the future.  Some improvement, something better
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You cant get more perfect than perfection. You may have a different idea as to what that entails but that doesnt really mean much.
Click to expand...


If you were perfect, why do you care what others think or say?  Why you have to try so hard to convince others to think as you do?  Why do you even need to be on the computer or use machinery of any kind?  Why do you need clothes or food?  Why do you crave to love or have any feeling at all?  Why do you like this but not that?

So what exactly does perfection look like to you and how will you know if we ever reach that point?  What will there be after perfection?  What would be our purpose for existence?  What would be the purpose of the universe?  What would be the purpose if a god?

The only perfection is the absolute absence of everything.

The very idea that god exists and acts means he is not perfect.  Giving a god emotions like love or anger is making him imperfect.  Giving him a need to create makes him imperfect.  The very fact that we are not already aware of what his words, demands, religion, etc., are makes him imperfect.  We should not need a book or for someone else to tell us what he expects from us.  We should not need any outside form of communication that can be distorted or misunderstood.

Even is we were gods, we would be in some form of competition and conflict with each other and with god.

So no there is no perfection, now or ever.  There is no perfect god.

There might be some force out there that we in our small imaginations might perceive as god, but it is not perfect, just more evolved that we are.  As long as we give it human attributes it can never be perfect to us.  Even pure energy, as we understand it, has it's opposite so that is not not perfection either.


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## Unkotare

midcan5 said:


> often the phrase is an excuse for bad behavior. In children we may excuse a mistake if we feel the child takes it too serious [sic]...




"Seriously"

The phrase is also used by adults when attempting to excuse failure or bad behavior.


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## Asclepias

aris2chat said:


> Asclepias said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Asclepias said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> midcan5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I will probably disagree with where you are going .... but often the phrase is an excuse for bad behavior. In children we may excuse a mistake if we feel the child takes it too serious, and say no one is perfect but.... For adults the phrase comes to be a meaningless cliche. Having managed large IT systems, if someone told me after a serious problem, 'no one is perfect' I may scream and I am a calm person. lol
> 
> 
> 
> I work in IT as well so I agree. You develop processes to avoid errors, test, refine your process and test again in a ongoing loop. Eventually you will hit perfection. The imperfection comes when you ignore that process or miss a step.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> and someone smarter or with more determination will find a way around your 'perfection'.  There will eventually be something more perfect created by someone else in the future.  Some improvement, something better
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You cant get more perfect than perfection. You may have a different idea as to what that entails but that doesnt really mean much.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If you were perfect, why do you care what others think or say?  Why you have to try so hard to convince others to think as you do?  Why do you even need to be on the computer or use machinery of any kind?  Why do you need clothes or food?  Why do you crave to love or have any feeling at all?  Why do you like this but not that?
> 
> So what exactly does perfection look like to you and how will you know if we ever reach that point?  What will there be after perfection?  What would be our purpose for existence?  What would be the purpose of the universe?  What would be the purpose if a god?
> 
> The only perfection is the absolute absence of everything.
> 
> The very idea that god exists and acts means he is not perfect.  Giving a god emotions like love or anger is making him imperfect.  Giving him a need to create makes him imperfect.  The very fact that we are not already aware of what his words, demands, religion, etc., are makes him imperfect.  We should not need a book or for someone else to tell us what he expects from us.  We should not need any outside form of communication that can be distorted or misunderstood.
> 
> Even is we were gods, we would be in some form of competition and conflict with each other and with god.
> 
> So no there is no perfection, now or ever.  There is no perfect god.
> 
> There might be some force out there that we in our small imaginations might perceive as god, but it is not perfect, just more evolved that we are.  As long as we give it human attributes it can never be perfect to us.  Even pure energy, as we understand it, has it's opposite so that is not not perfection either.
Click to expand...

Perfection is defined as having no flaws to put it simply. One would have to consider themselves flawed in order to feel themselves imperfect.  By its very definition the term perfection is subjective. I may think your eyes are a disaster area and someone else may think they are perfect.


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## aris2chat

vasuderatorrent said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> 
> Perfection would mean the end of evolution.  There would be nothing beyond that.  The universe is not perfect so why should you presume humans can ever be?
> 
> If god created us with flaws, how can he expect perfection from us?
> 
> If the universe has limits then there is no true infinity.  We might try for the perfection but as long as limits exist there will never be anything close to perfection.
> 
> We were not perfect when we first stood on two legs and if mankind still exists in a million years we will not have reach perfection then either.
> 
> As long as we have needs and desires; a long we strive to be better; as long we have feel love and pain; as long we have have birth and death we cannot be perfect no matter how hard we try.  No god should expect us to be perfect.  We are not gods.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let's imagine that I have created a religion that only has one rule.  That rule is, "Never murder human beings".
> 
> Could you be perfect in that regard?  Most people could maintain that level of perfection for life.
Click to expand...


if you have to set rules then your creations are not and will never be perfect.


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## Asclepias

Unkotare said:


> midcan5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> often the phrase is an excuse for bad behavior. In children we may excuse a mistake if we feel the child takes it too serious [sic]...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Seriously"
> 
> The phrase is also used by adults when attempting to excuse failure or bad behavior.
Click to expand...

Unk is trying to reach spelling perfection.


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## Asclepias

aris2chat said:


> vasuderatorrent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> 
> Perfection would mean the end of evolution.  There would be nothing beyond that.  The universe is not perfect so why should you presume humans can ever be?
> 
> If god created us with flaws, how can he expect perfection from us?
> 
> If the universe has limits then there is no true infinity.  We might try for the perfection but as long as limits exist there will never be anything close to perfection.
> 
> We were not perfect when we first stood on two legs and if mankind still exists in a million years we will not have reach perfection then either.
> 
> As long as we have needs and desires; a long we strive to be better; as long we have feel love and pain; as long we have have birth and death we cannot be perfect no matter how hard we try.  No god should expect us to be perfect.  We are not gods.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let's imagine that I have created a religion that only has one rule.  That rule is, "Never murder human beings".
> 
> Could you be perfect in that regard?  Most people could maintain that level of perfection for life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> if you have to set rules then your creations are not and will never be perfect.
Click to expand...

Where is that written?


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## Unkotare

aris2chat said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Christ was perfect. I have always believed mathematics is the most direct reflection we have today of the face and mind of God.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If death and illness are god's will, why did he heal or raise the dead?
> If he was perfect, why was his body able to be killed?
> If he was perfect, why did he disobey his parents?
> If you read other tales of his life as a child, why did he lie or kill if he was so perfect?
> If he was so perfect, why did he require others to die or kill in his name?
Click to expand...



If you are not perfect, why do you pretend you can comprehend - much less judge - God's plan? All this would be better suited to the Religion forum.


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## vasuderatorrent

Asclepias said:


> I disagree. Again perfection and what it entails may be the point of disagreement. God, or religions concept of god, is a fable. The real god made us perfect and expects nothing from us. Maybe we should get a consensus on what perfection means before continuing this.



Perfect is the concept of doing everything completely correct without error. I think people are adding nouns to the concept unaware.  They are thinking in their head, perfect Christian, perfect American citizen or perfect employee.

I think perfection can be applied to any concept that has standards.  For the purpose I was searching was in matter of a tradesman or employee.  If we teach ourselves that "nobody is perfect" by a Christian standard then that can alter the standard we set for ourselves in a professional capacity.  Filing 1,000 perfect tax returns is more realistic than following an all encompassing ethical system that reaches into ever facet of life.  I just think telling yourself that you can't be perfect could possibly be limiting.  Believing that nobody is perfect can also give you an ability to cope with reality which could make the philosophy beneficial.  

The question that I am trying to inspire is this:  Is it harmful or useful to believe that nobody is perfect?


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## aris2chat

Unkotare said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Christ was perfect. I have always believed mathematics is the most direct reflection we have today of the face and mind of God.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If death and illness are god's will, why did he heal or raise the dead?
> If he was perfect, why was his body able to be killed?
> If he was perfect, why did he disobey his parents?
> If you read other tales of his life as a child, why did he lie or kill if he was so perfect?
> If he was so perfect, why did he require others to die or kill in his name?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> If you are not perfect, why do you pretend you can comprehend - much less judge - God's plan? All this would be better suited to the Religion forum.
Click to expand...


There is a plan?  It's a lousy one from my perspective.  Good, bad, judgement, punishment, life death.............
Evolution over billions of years and we are still highly flawed?
More like everything is a just an accident of random atoms in some universal game of pinball, until they destroy themselves.
If perfection is so far beyond us, be it thousands of years ago or a million years from now, how can we even consider that such a thing exists?  If it is so far beyond us but without it we cannot reach heaven then what is the point?  What is it that we as a race are striving for so hard to achieve what is impossible?

I would never presume to be perfect and don't expect others to be.  Society has set certain standards that help us function but they are not perfect, just better than absolute chaos and anarchy.  Some things are more right than wrong for us to function.  We have as yet not exterminated ourselves.  We have as yet not blown up our planet.  We don't even now when we will die or if there will be a tomorrow.  We might die in out sleep.  There is no assurance of an after life.  No blueprint of what perfection will look like.  The best we can do is try to avoid pain either to others or ourselves, but that does not mean we will ever achieve it, so we try to cause the least pain for the most people, especially those we are flowed enough to have emotions for.

We have created the rules we live by, not some god in a piece if stone.  God is man made motivation to make us move forward rather than running in circles and never getting anywhere.  It is the idea that as we evolve, we are doing so to become something better.  Maybe we are moving farther away from perfection instead of closer.  As long as life and death exist in any life form, there can not be perfection.  We will always be killing something to survive, even each other at time.  We will always be building or destroying something rather than accepting anything as perfect.  We will always have desires and needs.  As long as we try to control others there will always be conflict.  As long as there is life there will be struggle and death.  Nothing can be perfect, there will always be change.


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## aris2chat

vasuderatorrent said:


> Asclepias said:
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree. Again perfection and what it entails may be the point of disagreement. God, or religions concept of god, is a fable. The real god made us perfect and expects nothing from us. Maybe we should get a consensus on what perfection means before continuing this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perfect is the concept of doing everything completely correct without error. I think people are adding nouns to the concept unaware.  They are thinking in their head, perfect Christian, perfect American citizen or perfect employee.
> 
> I think perfection can be applied to any concept that has standards.  For the purpose I was searching was in matter of a tradesman or employee.  If we teach ourselves that "nobody is perfect" by a Christian standard then that can alter the standard we set for ourselves in a professional capacity.  Filing 1,000 perfect tax returns is more realistic than following an all encompassing ethical system that reaches into ever facet of life.  I just think telling yourself that you can't be perfect could possibly be limiting.  Believing that nobody is perfect can also give you an ability to cope with reality which could make the philosophy beneficial.
> 
> The question that I am trying to inspire is this:  Is it harmful or useful to believe that nobody is perfect?
Click to expand...


Perhaps if we stop striving form perfection and accept us as we are?  Perhaps if we strive to do the least harm to ourselves or others?  Perhaps if we see others, other life forms, has having as much right to exist as we do?

but perfect?  no, never.

We can always strive to be better, but never perfect.  When we love all life as much as we love ourselves we might be as close to perfect as we can be.  Every insect and blade of grass...........
Maybe we are the disease on the planet and not the end result.  Maybe we are the most imperfect thing here?  Maybe some life form that will exist after the next extinction by some comet but will be the perfection?  Why do we have the presumption to think we can or should ever be perfect?  Why do we have the resumption to thing god created us in his image?  Why do we have the presumption to thing a god, if there is one, would even acknowledge our existence in any way?


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## Asclepias

vasuderatorrent said:


> Asclepias said:
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree. Again perfection and what it entails may be the point of disagreement. God, or religions concept of god, is a fable. The real god made us perfect and expects nothing from us. Maybe we should get a consensus on what perfection means before continuing this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Perfect is the concept of doing everything completely correct without error. I think people are adding nouns to the concept unaware.  They are thinking in their head, perfect Christian, perfect American citizen or perfect employee.
> 
> I think perfection can be applied to any concept that has standards.  For the purpose I was searching was in matter of a tradesman or employee.  If we teach ourselves that "nobody is perfect" by a Christian standard then that can alter the standard we set for ourselves in a professional capacity.  Filing 1,000 perfect tax returns is more realistic than following an all encompassing ethical system that reaches into ever facet of life.  I just think telling yourself that you can't be perfect could possibly be limiting.  Believing that nobody is perfect can also give you an ability to cope with reality which could make the philosophy beneficial.
> 
> The question that I am trying to inspire is this:  Is it harmful or useful to believe that nobody is perfect?
Click to expand...

Harmful. Its possible to reach perfection. There is no reason to cast a negative light on imperfection. Everything is a process and until you hit perfection you are in that process and doing something positive.


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## Unkotare

aris2chat said:


> There is a plan?  It's a lousy one from my perspective.  ....





To a flea sitting on one flake of paint, the Mona Lisa might not look like much either, but...


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## Unkotare

aris2chat said:


> We have created the rules we live by, not some god in a piece if stone.  .....




Go to the Moral Relativism thread.


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## aris2chat

Unkotare said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is a plan?  It's a lousy one from my perspective.  ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To a flea sitting on one flake of paint, the Mona Lisa might not look like much either, but...
Click to expand...


who ever said the mona lisa was perfect?  admirable,even mesmerizing but not perfect.  It is not even complete


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## Unkotare

aris2chat said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is a plan?  It's a lousy one from my perspective.  ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To a flea sitting on one flake of paint, the Mona Lisa might not look like much either, but...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> who ever said the mona lisa was perfect?  admirable,even mesmerizing but not perfect.  It is not even complete
Click to expand...




Exactly. Consider how much more complex, beautiful and awesome is God.


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## aris2chat

Unkotare said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is a plan?  It's a lousy one from my perspective.  ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To a flea sitting on one flake of paint, the Mona Lisa might not look like much either, but...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> who ever said the mona lisa was perfect?  admirable,even mesmerizing but not perfect.  It is not even complete
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. Consider how much more complex, beautiful and awesome is God.
Click to expand...


if there is a god of some kind, that does not make him perfect, just something beyond what we understand yet.  We might have seemed like gods to primitive man.  We might be viewed as all knowing to a cave man.  We might have been seen as a miracle worker to early healers or priests.
We are still fascinated with illusionists till be understand how they work.  We still struggle with optical illusions even if we know they are simple pencil drawings or shadows.

Just because we don't fully understand something does not mean there is a god.


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## Unkotare

aris2chat said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is a plan?  It's a lousy one from my perspective.  ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To a flea sitting on one flake of paint, the Mona Lisa might not look like much either, but...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> who ever said the mona lisa was perfect?  admirable,even mesmerizing but not perfect.  It is not even complete
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. Consider how much more complex, beautiful and awesome is God.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> if there is a god of some kind, that does not make him perfect, just something beyond what we understand yet.  We might have seemed like gods to primitive man.  We might be viewed as all knowing to a cave man.  We might have been seen as a miracle worker to early healers or priests.
> We are still fascinated with illusionists till be understand how they work.  We still struggle with optical illusions even if we know they are simple pencil drawings or shadows.
> 
> Just because we don't fully understand something does not mean there is a god.
Click to expand...






You apparently can't even understand the concept. Lots of atheists share your limitation.


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## aris2chat

Unkotare said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
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> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
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> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is a plan?  It's a lousy one from my perspective.  ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To a flea sitting on one flake of paint, the Mona Lisa might not look like much either, but...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> who ever said the mona lisa was perfect?  admirable,even mesmerizing but not perfect.  It is not even complete
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly. Consider how much more complex, beautiful and awesome is God.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> if there is a god of some kind, that does not make him perfect, just something beyond what we understand yet.  We might have seemed like gods to primitive man.  We might be viewed as all knowing to a cave man.  We might have been seen as a miracle worker to early healers or priests.
> We are still fascinated with illusionists till be understand how they work.  We still struggle with optical illusions even if we know they are simple pencil drawings or shadows.
> 
> Just because we don't fully understand something does not mean there is a god.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You apparently can't even understand the concept. Lots of atheists share your limitation.
Click to expand...



I have a good understanding of religion and belief.  I just have no proof of any god or religion being superior.
I  am not ready to suspend all logic and reason for some magical being that no one has seen.
Gods and religion have changed.  If there is something I will be pleasantly surprised when I meet it............till then I will question and learn and use my 'god'/nature given mind for myself and no rely on others telling me some fantasy story is truth.

I love stories of trolls and dragons but that does not mean they are real.  I can imagine a world of them but that is not prove they exist.  A can develop my own characters but that does no mean they are living breathing people.

I try not to confuse fiction with fact


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## Unkotare

aris2chat said:


> I have a good understanding of religion and belief.






Apparently not.


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## Unkotare

aris2chat said:


> I  am not ready to suspend all logic and reason...




I don't think you understand that either.


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## aris2chat

Unkotare said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a good understanding of religion and belief.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently not.
Click to expand...


Understanding belief and believing are not the same thing

I don't have to be insane to understand insanity, it's causes or it's cures.

You can study theology, religion and anthropology and not believe in a god that others believe in, or any god.

I am not going to put on blinders and step off a cliff to prove a belief in a god.


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## Asclepias

aris2chat said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a good understanding of religion and belief.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently not.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't have to be insane to understand insanity, it's causes or it's cures.
Click to expand...


How do you know you understand insanity if you are not insane? Is it faith in what you have been told?


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## aris2chat

Asclepias said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a good understanding of religion and belief.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently not.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't have to be insane to understand insanity, it's causes or it's cures.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How do you know you understand insanity if you are not insane? Is it faith in what you have been told?
Click to expand...


You study, observe, learn and experiment till you find a way to break the insanity and help someone cope in the real world with the rest of society in a positive functional way.

You think you have to have cancer to find a cure for it or prevent it?


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## Unkotare

aris2chat said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a good understanding of religion and belief.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently not.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Understanding belief and believing are not the same thing..
Click to expand...



And you are capable of neither.


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## aris2chat

vasuderatorrent said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> 
> Perfection would mean the end of evolution.  There would be nothing beyond that.  The universe is not perfect so why should you presume humans can ever be?
> 
> If god created us with flaws, how can he expect perfection from us?
> 
> If the universe has limits then there is no true infinity.  We might try for the perfection but as long as limits exist there will never be anything close to perfection.
> 
> We were not perfect when we first stood on two legs and if mankind still exists in a million years we will not have reach perfection then either.
> 
> As long as we have needs and desires; a long we strive to be better; as long we have feel love and pain; as long we have have birth and death we cannot be perfect no matter how hard we try.  No god should expect us to be perfect.  We are not gods.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let's imagine that I have created a religion that only has one rule.  That rule is, "Never murder human beings".
> 
> Could you be perfect in that regard?  Most people could maintain that level of perfection for life.
Click to expand...


cain killed abel and married his sister.............where is the perfection?  We kill for food, we killed for shelter, we kill for our existence.  We might not kill other humans but we kill other life so that we can live.  How can it be perfect to not kill?
We foul the land, water and air by our very existence.
Life can come to an end even without our actions.  We didn't kill the dinosaurs but we are killing the planet by using the fuel they created.  Mass extinctions are a natural part of our planet's history.  Out side forces and disease, even childbirth kills.  How can we ever reach a point where we don't kill?
That one rule set us up for failure.  We kill to live but to kill condemns us to eternal suffering?  Where is there any perfection it that?
How can you live life without harming someone or something that is living?  Even building wall or tearing down mountains creates change that can harm life.


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## Unkotare

aris2chat said:


> vasuderatorrent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> 
> Perfection would mean the end of evolution.  There would be nothing beyond that.  The universe is not perfect so why should you presume humans can ever be?
> 
> If god created us with flaws, how can he expect perfection from us?
> 
> If the universe has limits then there is no true infinity.  We might try for the perfection but as long as limits exist there will never be anything close to perfection.
> 
> We were not perfect when we first stood on two legs and if mankind still exists in a million years we will not have reach perfection then either.
> 
> As long as we have needs and desires; a long we strive to be better; as long we have feel love and pain; as long we have have birth and death we cannot be perfect no matter how hard we try.  No god should expect us to be perfect.  We are not gods.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let's imagine that I have created a religion that only has one rule.  That rule is, "Never murder human beings".
> 
> Could you be perfect in that regard?  Most people could maintain that level of perfection for life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> cain killed abel and married his sister.............where is the perfection?  We kill for food, we killed for shelter, we kill for our existence.  We might not kill other humans but we kill other life so that we can live.  How can it be perfect to not kill?
> We foul the land, water and air by our very existence.
> Life can come to an end even without our actions.  We didn't kill the dinosaurs but we are killing the planet by using the fuel they created.  Mass extinctions are a natural part of our planet's history.  Out side forces and disease, even childbirth kills.  How can we ever reach a point where we don't kill?
> That one rule set us up for failure.  We kill to live but to kill condemns us to eternal suffering?  Where is there any perfection it that?
> How can you live life without harming someone or something that is living?  Even building wall or tearing down mountains creates change that can harm life.
Click to expand...



You need to go sit at the kiddie table.


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## aris2chat

Unkotare said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vasuderatorrent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> 
> Perfection would mean the end of evolution.  There would be nothing beyond that.  The universe is not perfect so why should you presume humans can ever be?
> 
> If god created us with flaws, how can he expect perfection from us?
> 
> If the universe has limits then there is no true infinity.  We might try for the perfection but as long as limits exist there will never be anything close to perfection.
> 
> We were not perfect when we first stood on two legs and if mankind still exists in a million years we will not have reach perfection then either.
> 
> As long as we have needs and desires; a long we strive to be better; as long we have feel love and pain; as long we have have birth and death we cannot be perfect no matter how hard we try.  No god should expect us to be perfect.  We are not gods.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let's imagine that I have created a religion that only has one rule.  That rule is, "Never murder human beings".
> 
> Could you be perfect in that regard?  Most people could maintain that level of perfection for life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> cain killed abel and married his sister.............where is the perfection?  We kill for food, we killed for shelter, we kill for our existence.  We might not kill other humans but we kill other life so that we can live.  How can it be perfect to not kill?
> We foul the land, water and air by our very existence.
> Life can come to an end even without our actions.  We didn't kill the dinosaurs but we are killing the planet by using the fuel they created.  Mass extinctions are a natural part of our planet's history.  Out side forces and disease, even childbirth kills.  How can we ever reach a point where we don't kill?
> That one rule set us up for failure.  We kill to live but to kill condemns us to eternal suffering?  Where is there any perfection it that?
> How can you live life without harming someone or something that is living?  Even building wall or tearing down mountains creates change that can harm life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> You need to go sit at the kiddie table.
Click to expand...


You're still there?


----------



## vasuderatorrent

You can be perfect at spelling your name if you do it right every single time.  I am doing a poor job explaining this.  You guys are talking about a perfect Christian or a perfect Jew.

Can you be perfect at tying your shoes?  Can you be perfect at dialing your phone number?  Can you be perfect at balancing your checkbook?  If you believe you can't be perfect in general then this alters your attitude about your ability to master something.  Perfection can be achieved as long as the standard is low enough.



aris2chat said:


> cain killed abel and married his sister.............where is the perfection?  We kill for food, we killed for shelter, we kill for our existence.  We might not kill other humans but we kill other life so that we can live.  How can it be perfect to not kill?
> We foul the land, water and air by our very existence.
> Life can come to an end even without our actions.  We didn't kill the dinosaurs but we are killing the planet by using the fuel they created.  Mass extinctions are a natural part of our planet's history.  Out side forces and disease, even childbirth kills.  How can we ever reach a point where we don't kill?
> That one rule set us up for failure.  We kill to live but to kill condemns us to eternal suffering?  Where is there any perfection it that?
> How can you live life without harming someone or something that is living?  Even building wall or tearing down mountains creates change that can harm life.


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## vasuderatorrent

aris2chat said:


> You're still there?



Yes.  Sorry I was in other threads or reading the posts in this thread.  I'm about to log off for tonight though.


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## Moonglow

Computers are like Old testament Gods, lots of rules and no mercy...


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## Asclepias

aris2chat said:


> Asclepias said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a good understanding of religion and belief.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently not.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't have to be insane to understand insanity, it's causes or it's cures.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How do you know you understand insanity if you are not insane? Is it faith in what you have been told?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You study, observe, learn and experiment till you find a way to break the insanity and help someone cope in the real world with the rest of society in a positive functional way.
> 
> You think you have to have cancer to find a cure for it or prevent it?
Click to expand...

That doesnt mean you understand it. That just means you found what you think may be a cure, or more accurately, something to cover the symptoms.

No but you do need to have cancer to understand it.


----------



## aris2chat

vasuderatorrent said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> 
> Perfection would mean the end of evolution.  There would be nothing beyond that.  The universe is not perfect so why should you presume humans can ever be?
> 
> If god created us with flaws, how can he expect perfection from us?
> 
> If the universe has limits then there is no true infinity.  We might try for the perfection but as long as limits exist there will never be anything close to perfection.
> 
> We were not perfect when we first stood on two legs and if mankind still exists in a million years we will not have reach perfection then either.
> 
> As long as we have needs and desires; a long we strive to be better; as long we have feel love and pain; as long we have have birth and death we cannot be perfect no matter how hard we try.  No god should expect us to be perfect.  We are not gods.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let's imagine that I have created a religion that only has one rule.  That rule is, "Never murder human beings".
> 
> Could you be perfect in that regard?  Most people could maintain that level of perfection for life.
Click to expand...


Accidents, anger, madness, illness............ no, not possible.  We don't know if someone has a deadly allergy to things we like.  We will always have accidents.  Emotions of jealousy and anger are part of us and our competitive drive to improve ourselves.


----------



## aris2chat

Asclepias said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Asclepias said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a good understanding of religion and belief.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently not.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't have to be insane to understand insanity, it's causes or it's cures.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How do you know you understand insanity if you are not insane? Is it faith in what you have been told?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You study, observe, learn and experiment till you find a way to break the insanity and help someone cope in the real world with the rest of society in a positive functional way.
> 
> You think you have to have cancer to find a cure for it or prevent it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That doesnt mean you understand it. That just means you found what you think may be a cure, or more accurately, something to cover the symptoms.
> 
> No but you do need to have cancer to understand it.
Click to expand...


Someone needs to have it and others need to study it in an attempt to save their life or those of other who will get it.  You have to want to care for and cure that/those people.  It has to touch you in some way to motivate you.

HIV in monkeys for hundreds or thousands of years did not make mankind seek a cure, but when it was in major cities in the west and friends and relatives were dying from it, a rush to investigate and find a treatment or cure became imperative.

The closer it hits to home the more we care.


----------



## Pilate

vasuderatorrent said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> 
> God of the bible is not perfect.
> 
> humans are not supposed to be perfect, no life form is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody is perfect. You have probably heard this statement a lot. This is probably true but is it a beneficial thing to believe?
> 
> I learned to spell my name when I was a kid. I bet if I was asked to spell it 1,000 times that I could spell it perfectly every time. This makes me perfect.
> 
> As a child I learned multiplication tables. I bet if I was asked to multiple 3x8 1,000 times that I could come up with the correct answer every time. This makes me perfect.
> 
> My question is this: Can this level of perfection be applied to more complex tasks if a level of mastery is achieved? Can an accountant file 1,000 tax returns accurately every single time? Can a secretary file all 1,000 documents into the correct file every single time? Can a mail man deliver every letter exactly where it is supposed to go without error every single day?
> 
> Is it a worthwhile endeavor to even try? Is it emotionally harmful to attempt to achieve perfection in a work situation? Is it economically lazy to give up on the possibility of doing your job 100% perfect? Is it detrimental to productivity to try to be perfect because perfection requires a minimum amount of output. If nothing is done, no mistakes are made. Thus less work leads to more perfection.  More work would lead to less perfection.
> 
> If we can be perfect with simple task, why can't we be perfect with more complex tasks? Doesn't anybody understand where I am going with this thought?
Click to expand...

Nobody can be perfect depending on the scope of the perfection. While you can be perfect at spelling your name, or multiplying 1x1 a million times, that does not necessarily translate to perfection beyond the time frame in which those examples occurred nor does it translate to perfection in the broader sense of being without flaw.


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## TNHarley

"nobody is perfect" is said in a general sense. Not with one specific incident. OP doesn't think much..


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## esthermoon

I think it's real
Nobody is perfect we're all full of flaws 
Sometimes we can fix some flaws sometimes we can't even do that!


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## Moonglow

Perfection is an illusion....You can't make perfection from imperfect beings....


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## vasuderatorrent

esthermoon said:


> I think it's real
> Nobody is perfect we're all full of flaws
> Sometimes we can fix some flaws sometimes we can't even do that!



Esthermoon,  Do you love me?


----------

