# A Necessity, NOT A Luxury



## Sonny Clark (Dec 19, 2014)

Just like water, food, shelter, and clothing, proper health care is a necessity. But, because it is a necessity, it has become a racket, a scam, a con, and legalized theft. Those in the medical and health care profession know that people can't set their own bones, stitch themselves up, remove kidney stones, and perform their own organ transplants. We all need those in the health care profession, there's no other choice. When people have no choice, it opens the doors for those that see easy money and a means to take unfair advantage of the situation.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/12/18/health/cost-of-health-care-poll.html?ref=health
•A bill of over *$40,000* for the 20 minutes it took a doctor to stitch a cut.

• An ambulance ride of only 200 feet that cost *$3,421*.

• A healthy, insured couple *“slowly going under”* because their premiums, co-pays and deductibles are now twice as high as their mortgage and food costs.

Something is bad wrong when a hospital can charge $1,800 a day for a tiny filthy room, $5.00 for an aspirin, and $20.00 for a breakfast that consist of powdered eggs and wheat toast. Something is bad wrong when a doctor can charge $300.00 for an office visit that consist of a five minute conversation. Something is bad wrong when a single blood pressure pill cost $200.00.

Pharmaceuticals, labs, clinics, hospitals, doctors, and others in the health care and medical profession, are exercising price gouging and getting away with it. Insurance companies are also contributing to this outrage. But, even though insurance companies are taking part in the scam, it's actually those that over-bill for services that are to blame for the soaring cost to consumers. Insurance companies operate on the information contained in bills submitted by health care providers.

What makes matters even worse, is the fact that many receive less than satisfactory service, and some even die from mal-practice and infections acquired while in the hospital. Doctors often try to justify their fees by stating that they pay enormous amounts for mal-practice insurance. Well, if everyone in the medical and health care industry would clean up their own profession, there would be far fewer mal-practice law suits.

Another excuse given for high cost is the cost of equipment such as MRI machines. An MRI cost around $4,000 and up. How long does it take at that rate before the machine has paid for itself? And, does the cost for an MRI dramatically decrease after the machine has paid for itself? The bottom line is that health care is a scam and it's a legal scam. Its legalized theft. And, it's bankrupting America.


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## Moonglow (Dec 19, 2014)

Capitalism at it's best...


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 19, 2014)

Moonglow said:


> Capitalism at it's best...


And bankrupting America at its best. All the signs of unaffordable health care.


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## Autonomous Collective (Dec 19, 2014)

I'm sure doctors laugh all the way to the bank in their expensive cars.


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## TakeAStepBack (Dec 19, 2014)

Moonglow said:


> Capitalism at it's best...



What capitalism? The government sets almost ALL the rules of engagement in healthcare. There is almost zero competition in the medical device because of the government, the insurance mandated by the government to providers and the list goes on and on.

But do not let the facts get in the way of a good old socialist yammering of the "workings of capitalism" where there is none.


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## CrusaderFrank (Dec 19, 2014)

TakeAStepBack said:


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Government fucked the system up, therefore we need more government!


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## TakeAStepBack (Dec 19, 2014)

And healthcare is not a necessity. It'


CrusaderFrank said:


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It's pretty typical in today's society. Especially blaming capitalism where there is no such thing taking place. Most of these fucks just do not know who the real enemy is and have been thoroughly duped into believing capitalism = corporatism.


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 19, 2014)

Autonomous Collective said:


> I'm sure doctors laugh all the way to the bank in their expensive cars.


No doubt.


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## Mr. H. (Dec 19, 2014)

This "Affordable Care Act" is not affordable to me.


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## Jackinthebox (Dec 19, 2014)

Healthcare is a necessity. But Obamacare simply forces us to participate in the vile and corrupt scam of healthcare providers and insurers without even addressing why the system is broken to begin with.


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## Nosmo King (Dec 19, 2014)

CrusaderFrank said:


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Litigation fucked up the system.  Perhaps we need more litigation.


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 19, 2014)

Jackinthebox said:


> Healthcare is a necessity. But Obamacare simply forces us to participate in the vile and corrupt scam of healthcare providers and insurers without even addressing why the system is broken to begin with.


Absolutely correct.


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 19, 2014)

Nosmo King said:


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It was GREED that caused the profession to explode with price gouging and corruption.


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## TakeAStepBack (Dec 19, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


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Yeah, and the government is the greedy one with their price gouging, special interest group mandates and corportist activities.
The profession has been squeezed to death by government. Just like almost every other economic sector of the country.


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## Jackinthebox (Dec 19, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


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And all the partisanship on the subject is just show. Obamacare was invented by Romney. Two parties, one agenda. It's like this with so many issues. take illegal immigration too for example. Bush did NOTHING about it, because it's good for big business, which Republicans love. Now Obama is actually pushing for more protections for illegals, under the guise of left-wing humanitarianism, but in reality because he was installed by the same people that Bush worked for.


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## 80zephyr (Dec 19, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


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Really? So, why just the medical profession? Most people have no idea how to grow their own food, most cannot legally build their own house.

Aren't these professions also ripe for greed?

Methinks you are barking up the wrong tree.

Mark


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## Jackinthebox (Dec 19, 2014)

TakeAStepBack said:


> Yeah, and the government is the greedy one with their price gouging, special interest group mandates and corportist activities.
> The profession has been squeezed to death by government. Just like almost every other economic sector of the country.



It hasn't been squeezed by government. A lack of regulation has healthcare providers and insurers ripping each other off to the point that no one can afford some of the crappiest healthcare in the world. Unless you are wealthy, you are not getting this "wonderful" and "advanced" healthcare you see on House. 

I have a Cadillac healthcare plan, and was in the hospital a few weeks ago after a serious trauma incident. I was brought to the hospital unconscious, and released a few hours later with a script for pain meds and told I had a concussion. turns out I have a fractured eye socket and knee, that they totally missed. The volunteer EMT's from my local fire department tell my they told the admitting physician that I had a knee injury as well, but they never even looked at it. They were focused on my head injury and laceration, and completely missed the broken knee. Totally amateur. I am an EMT myself, and one of the most very basic things you do is examine the ENTIRE patient, especially one who is unconscious after a trauma incident.


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## TakeAStepBack (Dec 19, 2014)

Jackinthebox said:


> It hasn't been squeezed by government. A lack of regulation has healthcare providers and insurers ripping each other off to the point that no one can afford some of the crappiest healthcare in the world. Unless you are wealthy, you are not getting this "wonderful" and "advanced" healthcare you see on House.



This is absolutely laughable. A lack of regulations?


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 19, 2014)

TakeAStepBack said:


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Yes, the government is playing a huge role in the industry. With the money flowing from Lobbyists and special interest groups, our law makers are obligated to favor the health care industry. The government is making a lot of people rich, or richer, through legislation that directly affects the health care industry. Legislation is for sale every single day of the week.


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## Jackinthebox (Dec 19, 2014)

TakeAStepBack said:


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Just like deregulation led to the housing bubble. We need rules. Anarcho-capitalism does nothing good for society. Now don't get me wrong, I am not a fan of big government either. We could do away with most of the laws out there today as far as I'm concerned. But in the areas where were really SHOULD have regulation and government oversight there is none. That is no coincidence. Basic "look over here" while they screw us over there.


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 19, 2014)

80zephyr said:


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You are correct. It's not only the health care industry, but most all others. GREED influences corporate America, which is aided and abetted by Washington politics. Many industries are corrupt, including the U.S. government.


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## CrusaderFrank (Dec 19, 2014)

TakeAStepBack said:


> And healthcare is not a necessity. It'
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The Progs haven't been educated, they've been indoctrinated. They take as Gospel anything fed into the Collective. Free enterprise is he enemy, banks are the enemy, capital is the enemy; the only force for good is the government.  You can even show them how this has failed each and every time it's been tried. Even their elder brother is Communist Faith, the Chinese and Soviet Communists have abandoned government control as a failure, but not our Progs!  They soldier on as if they were Politboro members.


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## CrusaderFrank (Dec 19, 2014)

Jackinthebox said:


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What was "deregulated"?  Were Fannie and Freddie deregulated?


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## Jackinthebox (Dec 19, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


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Oil industry, housing, etc. Healthcare just happens to be the agenda for the day. Typical problem-reaction-solution scenario. this problem was seeded 20 years ago, deliberately, in order to create this crisis, which would lead to a "solution" that only screws us 9iover even more. 

Again, misguided and misplaced regulation. Corruption, in a nutshell. There is nothing wrong with the government setting guidelines for fair business practices and humanitarian needs. The problem is that the regulations they are implementing are corrupt, and not actually for the good of the people.


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## Jackinthebox (Dec 19, 2014)

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Yes, they were. So was a lot of Wall Street at the time.


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## CrusaderFrank (Dec 19, 2014)

Jackinthebox said:


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Sorry. You're not making a lick of sense.  Do you know what Fannie and Freddy were?


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## Jackinthebox (Dec 19, 2014)

CrusaderFrank said:


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The products of deregulation making toxic loans for real estate.


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## dblack (Dec 23, 2014)

OBEY!!!!


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## william the wie (Dec 25, 2014)

TakeAStepBack said:


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Do make allowances, he's a Bama fan


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 25, 2014)

william the wie said:


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Yes, I'm a Bama fan. I was born and raised in Alabama. I have lived here in Georgia since 1987 though. I'm proud to be a Bama fan. But, I have lived and worked in 13 different states.


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## ScienceRocks (Dec 25, 2014)

I also believe that healthcare is a NECESSITY. You don't live very long without it.


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## MikeK (Dec 26, 2014)

I tend to pull at hangnails, which sometimes results in an infected finger.  This happened twice while I was in the Marine Corps (in the mid-50s).   Both times I strolled over to "sick bay" and was examined by an enlisted rank Navy Medical Corpsman -- who handed me a little box of penicillin tablets and told me to take two every two hours.  Both times the swelling was down and the infection was gone by next morning.

Later, as a civilian, when an infection started up I would call my GP for an "emergency appointment." Then, for a quick glance and a penicillin prescription my insurance company (GHI) was billed $110.

But that was gentle by comparison to the time when an infection started late on a Friday afternoon, too late for a GP appointment and too risky to wait 'til Monday.  So off to the local hospital's Emergency Room, where I waited about two hours to be interviewed by a social worker who filled out about six pages of redundant information.

Then I waited another hour to be led into a ward, told to get into a bed (fully clothed) and covered with a sheet, where I waited about another hour to be "seen" by a tired-looking intern who seemed disgusted at the petty nature of my complaint.  Instead of just writing a prescription for the penicillin, which we both knew was all I neded.  But in spite of my objection this guy insisted on lancing my finger and inserting a drain -- _then_ giving me the prescription.

The bottom line to that systematic rip-off was a $675 bill to my insurance company for "Emergency Surgery."  This was before I became eligible for Medicare, which would have gotten the same bill, which would ultimately have gone to the taxpayers

*$675* for something that probably cost the Navy Medical Corps about fifteen cents!

Another military example occurred during field maneuvers in the Philippines when a painful golf-ball-size boil formed on my left inner thigh, putting me out of action.  A Navy Field Corpsman, no older than I was, gave me a shot of novocaine, lanced the boil, inserted a drain, dressed the cut, gave me a penicillin shot and a little box of penicillin tablets.  And I was back on my bulldozer nest day!

The point of all this, and the question I have, is what happens to all these military medics when they get out?  Why are there not walk-in clinics comparable to Navy sick bays available to bring such minor medical problems to?  My $675 emergency room adventure could have been handled by a former medic for about a $20 fee -- as could the majority of routine emergency room treatments.

But rest assured the American Medical Association would bring heavy pressure to bear against any such proposal.


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## Jackinthebox (Dec 26, 2014)

MikeK said:


> I tend to pull at hangnails, which sometimes results in an infected finger.  This happened twice while I was in the Marine Corps (in the mid-50s).   Both times I strolled over to "sick bay" and was examined by an enlisted rank Navy Medical Corpsman -- who handed me a little box of penicillin tablets and told me to take two every two hours.  Both times the swelling was down and the infection was gone by next morning.
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The insurance companies won't go for that either, because affordable medical means you don't need insurance.


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## strollingbones (Dec 26, 2014)

the greed is not the doctors but the insurance companies......lets not forget when they made the decisions according to profit margins and let people die....seems people have forgotten the horrors of insurance companies making the decisions on who lives and who dies based on how profitable it is for the company....


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## dblack (Dec 26, 2014)

strollingbones said:


> the greed is not the doctors but the insurance companies......lets not forget when they made the decisions according to profit margins and let people die....seems people have forgotten the horrors of insurance companies making the decisions on who lives and who dies based on how profitable it is for the company....



The "greed" is with people who don't want to face reality. Let's cut to the chase of the real problem underlying our national health care delusion: everyone wants to live forever and no one wants to pay for it. When you look at where the bulk of our health care dollars are being wasted, it's in pointless end-of-life spending. We need to get it through our heads that it's stupid to blow the family savings keeping grandma alive for an extra three months.


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## Jackinthebox (Dec 26, 2014)

dblack said:


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There is some truth in that, but it's not the whole story. My grandmother spent a fortune on medical care in the last ten years of her life. On the other hand, she also watched every penny, and was furious whenever she saw things like double billing, other billing errors, blatant abuses of one company to another with her in the middle. Outright fraud in many instances, but no one to report it to, and no one who wanted to listen when she did. Sometimes she felt she was getting ripped off personally, but for the most part, what she saw was just systematic fraud going unchecked.


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## dblack (Dec 26, 2014)

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It sounds like she was spending her own money, which hits on the what enables the foolish spending in the first place: the fact is, most of us aren't. We've gone to ridiculous extremes to avoid paying for our own health care and shift the costs on to the rest of society. That removes the crucial incentive to be prudent with personal health care spending. 

When families have to make these decisions, when it's presented as a choice between blowing the family savings or squeezing every last minute out of life, people make better decisions. My own father was faced with that dilemma, and chose to accept reality and leave his wife with a decent retirement, rather than live his last few years clinging to life in a hospital bed and leave her with nothing.


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 26, 2014)

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Yes, some people do have choices, but not everyone. It's impossible for everyone to pay the cost of proper health care. And, since it's a necessity, debt or spending life savings are choices we're forced into. We can't expect or allow everyone to just die on the streets because of the high cost of health care. We are a humane and civil society that tends to care for others, even it means a portion of our tax dollars are spent on the poor and less fortunate among us.


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## dblack (Dec 26, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


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"Some people" aren't the problem. The problem isn't social safety nets. The problem is that we're trying to fit *everyone* into those safety nets, which defeats the purpose. The only way we can help out the people who fall through the cracks is if most of us are paying our own way.


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## Jackinthebox (Dec 26, 2014)

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I don't know how much Medicaid covered her, but I know she had private insurance too. Either way though, the lack of affordability is what has led to socialized medical care, not the other way around. Fascist healthcare I should say really. I would be sooner to accept a national healthcare system, rather than a government mandate to participate in PRIVATE industry. I would rather see public health clinics open for free or subsidized cost, than see be ordered to buy medical coverage in a broken system.


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## Jackinthebox (Dec 26, 2014)

dblack said:


> "Some people" aren't the problem. The problem isn't social safety nets. The problem is that we're trying to fit *everyone* into those safety nets, which defeats the purpose. The only way we can help out the people who fall through the cracks is if most of us are paying our own way.



Most of us aren't paying our own way because of depressed wage standards. You could be well above the poverty line and minim wage pay, and still not be able to afford medical care. I was attacked a few weeks ago on the street. $12,000 bill for about 12 hours in the ER and an ambulance ride. That is about what a min wage worker makes in an entire year.


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 26, 2014)

dblack said:


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Oh yes, it'd be nice if everyone was financially able to do just that. But, health care is very expensive, and only a very small percentage of Americans have the resources to pay their way. Health care cost is just like interstate highways and bridges. How many citizens can pay for their own roadways and bridges? How many people can afford to pay for their own army and national security? There are things that individuals just can't afford. Being a civil and humane people and society, we make sacrifices in order to help others. In addition, since you've mentioned tax dollars, why not mention and include the astronomical amount we spend on illegal immigrants, senseless deadly costly wars, subsidies to rich farmers and big oil, Congressional perks and benefits, unnecessary military equipment and bases on foreign soil, worthless stupid projects such as the fence along our southern border, exploring the far reaches of the universe, and other taxpayer tax dollars wasted?


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## dblack (Dec 26, 2014)

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Absolutely. That's what I find so repugnant about ACA. I'm no fan of socialism, and would argue instead for the freedom to manage our health care as we see fit, but we _could _provide basic health care as a government service _sanely_, in much the same way we provide basic education. But, like education, it's crucial that it be done locally, where we can more easily avoid corporatist nightmares like ACA.


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## Jackinthebox (Dec 26, 2014)

dblack said:


> Absolutely. That's what I find so repugnant about ACA. I'm no fan of socialism, and would argue instead for the freedom to manage our health care as we see fit, but we _could _provide basic health care as a government service _sanely_, in much the same way we provide basic education. But, like education, it's crucial that it be done locally, where we can more easily avoid corporatist nightmares like ACA.



I would suggest revamping the VA to include citizens across the board. Expand the VA hospitals and services. A program like that might actually IMPROVE veteran care, since so many more people were part of it, bringing down the "cost per unit" so to speak.


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## dblack (Dec 26, 2014)

Jackinthebox said:


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And depressed wage standards are facilitated by the fact that most of us aren't paying our own way. It's the same chicken and egg argument that goes on with the whining about Walmart underpaying employees who are on welfare.


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 26, 2014)

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How do the dots connect between wages and one paying their own way? Please explain.


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## Jackinthebox (Dec 26, 2014)

dblack said:


> And depressed wage standards are facilitated by the fact that most of us aren't paying our own way. It's the same chicken and egg argument that goes on with the whining about Walmart underpaying employees who are on welfare.



Except that we see from the historical data that deteriorating wages has driven up prices, not the other way around. Low pay has not brought down prices, obviously.


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## Skull Pilot (Dec 26, 2014)

Health care is a modern convenience not a necessity.

For the better part of the human race's existence we did not have health care and we still managed to become the dominant species.


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## dblack (Dec 26, 2014)

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Ok... I'm gonna ask you to squint your eyes, take a couple of steps back, and try to see how crazy that is. Health care costs aren't "just like interstate highways and bridges". Health care is a basic cost of living, more like food and housing. Think for a minute about what would happen to food costs if we tried to finance them with the same kind group insurance nonsense we try to use for health care. What do you think would happen if everyone paid a monthly fee and expected to get all the food they "need"? Would anyone have ANY incentive to look for lower prices on food? Or would the have every incentive to buy the most expensive options because it won't affect their monthly fee?

Health care costs are out of control because we can't let go of the irrational delusion that health care should be treated as a right rather than a commodity.


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 26, 2014)

Jackinthebox said:


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No, low pay has not decreased the cost of goods and services, I agree. But, wages are not the reason for inflated prices. We still have execs making $millions, corporate profits are up, and still employers are putting more cost on the shoulders of employees. Greed raises the cost of goods and services. A good example is the price of oil. It cost the same to extract a barrel of oil today as it did a month ago. But, the prices for gasoline, jet furl, and oil by-products continue to fluctuate. Commodity speculators drive the price of oil, and in some cases, the demand for goods and services drive cost. When prices go up, it doesn't necessarily mean the cost of production goes up in relation to fluctuations in end user cost.


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## dblack (Dec 26, 2014)

Jackinthebox said:


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Yeah, you're droning on with this idiocy in another thread. I don't want to retrace it here.


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## dblack (Dec 26, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


> In addition, since you've mentioned tax dollars, why not mention and include the astronomical amount we spend on illegal immigrants, senseless deadly costly wars, subsidies to rich farmers and big oil, Congressional perks and benefits, unnecessary military equipment and bases on foreign soil, worthless stupid projects such as the fence along our southern border, exploring the far reaches of the universe, and other taxpayer tax dollars wasted?



I didn't mentioned it because the topic here is health care. But I totally agree.


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 26, 2014)

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Proper health care is a right, a humane and civil society necessity. And, I wasn't saying that food and highways are like health care. I was saying that no single individual can pay for their own highways, and no single individual can pay for their own health care, with maybe a few exceptions. What do we do with those that can't pay their own way when it comes to proper health care? Do we allow them to just die on the street like animals?


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## Skull Pilot (Dec 26, 2014)

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Yeah because millions of people die in the streets.

If you want to be taken seriously cut out the hyperbole.


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## dblack (Dec 26, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


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Case in point.


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 26, 2014)

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If you want to be taken seriously, then please explain the alternative that we have to shared health care cost. How can we do it better, without insurance and government assistance programs? How can we fix it so that everyone pays their way?


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## dblack (Dec 26, 2014)

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Get out of the way.


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 26, 2014)

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Meaning what exactly? Please explain. Thanks.


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## Skull Pilot (Dec 26, 2014)

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I do not agree that health care is a necessity as you say.

It is a modern convenience that is all.

And most people do pay for their own insurance now don't they? So they are paying for their own health care.

But if you really want to lower the cost of health care services then allow market forces to come to bear.

Let people shop around for their health care services.


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## BlackSand (Dec 26, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


> ... and no single individual can pay for their own health care, with maybe a few exceptions ...



Even if they can afford their own healthcare ... It is against the law for them not to have insurance now ... And they are taxed at 2% of their income if they don't not intend on getting "healthcare" (insurance) as defined and mandated by your government.

The ACA doesn't provide healthcare ... It makes people buy health insurance. Having a right to healthcare does not equate to paying what the government mandates in insurance. The individual is no closer to affording the medical care they need if they cannot afford the deductible. 

.


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## dblack (Dec 26, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Sonny Clark said:
> ...



Meaning: stop trying to control how other people take care of their health. Meaning: stop using government to tell people what kind of health care they're _allowed _to seek. Stop trying to tell people how they can pay for their health care.

People aren't, generally, stupid. We can take care of ourselves without resorting to coercive state mandates.


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## Jackinthebox (Dec 26, 2014)

Skull Pilot said:


> Health care is a modern convenience not a necessity.
> 
> For the better part of the human race's existence we did not have health care and we still managed to become the dominant species.



Bullshit. For all of human history we have had medicine men who didn't need a license to practice or to dispense of medicine. Less than a hundred years ago you could go out and freely buy weed, cocaine and heroin. Now you can't even buy allergy pills without showing your driver license.


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## dblack (Dec 26, 2014)

Jackinthebox said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > Health care is a modern convenience not a necessity.
> ...



!!! Yep. That's the crux of it, right there.


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## Jackinthebox (Dec 26, 2014)

Skull Pilot said:


> Yeah because millions of people die in the streets.
> 
> If you want to be taken seriously cut out the hyperbole.



For the first time in American history the average life expectancy has begun to decline for certain demographics, namely, the poor.


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## DriftingSand (Dec 26, 2014)

Moonglow said:


> Capitalism at it's best...



And Obama seized the opportunity to "capitalize" on it.


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## Jackinthebox (Dec 26, 2014)

dblack said:


> Meaning: stop trying to control how other people take care of their health. Meaning: stop using government to tell people what kind of health care they're _allowed _to seek. Stop trying to tell people how they can pay for their health care.
> 
> People aren't, generally, stupid. We can take care of ourselves without resorting to coercive state mandates.



Unless the government is going to legalize access to all drugs without a script, and remove licensing requirements for caregivers, then they have an obligation to provide medical care to those who cannot afford it because of the restrictions imposed by the government.


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## DriftingSand (Dec 26, 2014)

Skull Pilot said:


> Health care is a modern convenience not a necessity.
> 
> For the better part of the human race's existence we did not have health care and we still managed to become the dominant species.



I simply don't go to the doctor (even though I've been medically insured for decades).  If and when it gets to the point that I must go deep into debt just to keep breathing I'll simply stop breathing.  We all gotta die sooner or later.  It may as well be sooner than later.  The last thing I want for myself is to be stuck in a wheelchair drooling all over myself in the corner of some old-folks home.


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## dblack (Dec 26, 2014)

Jackinthebox said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Meaning: stop trying to control how other people take care of their health. Meaning: stop using government to tell people what kind of health care they're _allowed _to seek. Stop trying to tell people how they can pay for their health care.
> ...



Which is why libertarians argue against such restrictions. Going down that road inevitably ends up with government providing (ie controlling) every-damned-thing.


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 26, 2014)

Skull Pilot said:


> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...


FYI - Insurance does NOT pay the entire cost. Even the best insurance plan requires out-of-pocket payments. Also, the market is dictating cost. And, yes, health care is a necessity. How many people can set bones, do open heart surgery on themselves, and stitch up their own open wounds? It is very much a necessity. I pay my insurance premiums, but my insurance doesn't cover all of the cost. It's still very expensive for me to get health care. I have Cigna major medical coverage, and I have Medicare. And, no everyone can afford coverage like I have. In order to lower cost, pharmaceuticals, clinics, labs, hospitals, and doctors would have to lower their charges. Otherwise, the cost will continue to soar out of control. The market right now is rigged in favor of the health care industry. John Q. Public has no say-so when it comes to what a doctor charges. It is a necessity that we can't provide for ourselves.


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 26, 2014)

dblack said:


> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...


I understand what you're saying here. But, still, the problem is one of rising cost, and individuals need some form of assistance in order to get the necessary treatment they need when it comes to proper health care. Regardless of whether we have choices or not, regardless of whether those choices include government requirements, and regardless of insurance or lack of insurance, we still need help paying for proper health care. It's not a choice of paying or allowing others to subsidize it, we all need some form of help paying for health care.


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## dblack (Dec 26, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Sonny Clark said:
> ...



Again, I have to ask you to check the sanity of such a statement. If we all need help, who's doing the "helping"?


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## Jackinthebox (Dec 26, 2014)

dblack said:


> Which is why libertarians argue against such restrictions. Going down that road inevitably ends up with government providing (ie controlling) every-damned-thing.



I think we can find some middle ground. Certainly ground far away from how much government we have today, but I am not an anarchist either. For instance, I would agree with licensing for doctors, but not criminal penalty for practicing without a license.


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## Jackinthebox (Dec 26, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


> I understand what you're saying here. But, still, the problem is one of rising cost, and individuals need some form of assistance in order to get the necessary treatment they need when it comes to proper health care. Regardless of whether we have choices or not, regardless of whether those choices include government requirements, and regardless of insurance or lack of insurance, we still need help paying for proper health care. It's not a choice of paying or allowing others to subsidize it, we all need some form of help paying for health care.



Even if you pay all of your own medical bills straight out of pocket and in full, hospitals, ambulances, and most of the healthcare system are still subsidized. Without those subsidies, you would not have the service to pay for in the first place at this point.


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## DriftingSand (Dec 26, 2014)

What's wrong with this option?:

My heart is failing which means it's time for me to die.  Why has it become imperative that I be kept alive at all costs?  Is it fair for me to burden my family with giant medical costs just so I can add a few more years of life which would likely be a low quality of life?  Is it wrong to believe that when it's time to go that it's time to go?  As sad as the death of a loved one is, it happens to be an inevitable fact of life.


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## dblack (Dec 26, 2014)

Jackinthebox said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Which is why libertarians argue against such restrictions. Going down that road inevitably ends up with government providing (ie controlling) every-damned-thing.
> ...



How about no penalty at all? Why shouldn't people be allowed to take the risk of using an unlicensed practitioner if they want?


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## Jackinthebox (Dec 26, 2014)

DriftingSand said:


> What's wrong with this option?:
> 
> My heart is failing which means it's time for me to die.  Why has it become imperative that I be kept alive at all costs?  Is it fair for me to burden my family with giant medical costs just so I can add a few more years of life which would likely be a low quality of life?  Is it wrong to believe that when it's time to go that it's time to go?  As sad as the death of a loved one is, it happens to be an inevitable fact of life.



That's not up to you to decide for someone else. My little cousin had open heart surgery when she was 12. She leads a happy healthy life now and will live to a ripe old age, barring some accident or other disease onset of course.


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 26, 2014)

dblack said:


> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
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There's a lot of sanity in the statement. It's factual and a truism. The help is coming from taxpayers, charities, trust funds, family members, and from debt forgiveness. Examples: Medicare, Medicaid, trust funds such as St. Jude's Children Hospital, and in some cases, debt forgiveness which turns into tax write-offs. Just common sense and simple logic.


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 26, 2014)

DriftingSand said:


> What's wrong with this option?:
> 
> My heart is failing which means it's time for me to die.  Why has it become imperative that I be kept alive at all costs?  Is it fair for me to burden my family with giant medical costs just so I can add a few more years of life which would likely be a low quality of life?  Is it wrong to believe that when it's time to go that it's time to go?  As sad as the death of a loved one is, it happens to be an inevitable fact of life.


That situation is a very small percentage of health care needs.


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## Jackinthebox (Dec 26, 2014)

dblack said:


> Jackinthebox said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



I could go with that. What I was getting at though, is still have licensing. It would be like premium service for those that wanted it. But I know EMT's and Paramedics right now that could give better treatment than a lot of doctors out there. They just don't have the credentials to give certain treatments, which they are fully knowledgeable of. That is not to say that ALL EMT's or Paramedics are as good as any doctor, but I know a few who are, especially for emergency care and trauma, things of that nature. Take the cuffs of them so to speak, at the discretion of the patient, rather than the state.


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## dblack (Dec 26, 2014)

DriftingSand said:


> What's wrong with this option?:
> 
> My heart is failing which means it's time for me to die.  Why has it become imperative that I be kept alive at all costs?  Is it fair for me to burden my family with giant medical costs just so I can add a few more years of life which would likely be a low quality of life?



If that were the decision, we'd be more rational about it. But it's not. The decision is whether or not to it's fair to burden some faceless, socialized, health-care cost sharing scheme. Faced with that kind of decision, there's every incentive to go for broke.


Sonny Clark said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Sonny Clark said:
> ...



No, there's not. If the average person can't afford basic health care, there's something seriously wrong. Something socializing costs isn't going to solve.


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## boedicca (Dec 26, 2014)

Moonglow said:


> Capitalism at it's best...




Hardly,  These prices are not driven by Capitalism. Health care is one of the most heavily regulated and crony driven aspects of the economy.


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## Jackinthebox (Dec 26, 2014)

dblack said:


> No, there's not. If the average person can't afford basic health care, there's something seriously wrong. Something socializing costs isn't going to solve.



But mandating a living wage would solve it. That would knock out almost all socialism in fact.


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## dblack (Dec 26, 2014)

Jackinthebox said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > No, there's not. If the average person can't afford basic health care, there's something seriously wrong. Something socializing costs isn't going to solve.
> ...



Sadly, it wouldn't. That's simply another delusional tail-chasing exercise that will drive us deeper yet.


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## Jackinthebox (Dec 26, 2014)

dblack said:


> Jackinthebox said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



Well, like you said, no since going down that road again here.


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 26, 2014)

dblack said:


> DriftingSand said:
> 
> 
> > What's wrong with this option?:
> ...


FYI - The average person can NOT afford basic health care. I just had an MRI that cost over $4,000. My prescriptions would cost a lot of money each month without insurance covering 95% of the cost. Can you imagine what the expense it would be for a family of four just to have an annual check-up? Do you realize what lab work cost? Do you know what an average doctor visit cost? The average person is doing well just to pay mortgage ( rent ), food, transportation, utilities, clothing, and insurance on their home and auto. Most people do not have a nest egg to draw from. People aren't making the money they use to make. The cost of living has gone up. Employers are paying less benefits for employees. A lot of college kids have enormous student loan debt. Seniors have lost equity in their homes, and some have lost part of their pensions due to mismanagement of the funds by unions and cities. We are not a wealthy citizenry. We are not a self-supporting people, nor a self-supporting nation. Proper health care is an enormous cost. At some point, almost everyone needs some form of assistance. Again, common sense and simple logic.


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## Jackinthebox (Dec 26, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > DriftingSand said:
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This study shows that medical is a VERY large part of basic living expenses. 

Analyzing a Practical Minimum Wage Minimum Wage Workers Union of America

Here is the thread on it that I started too. 

Analyzing A Practical Minimum Wage US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum


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## MikeK (Dec 26, 2014)

dblack said:


> [...]
> 
> It sounds like she was spending her own money, which hits on the what enables the foolish spending in the first place: the fact is, most of us aren't. We've gone to ridiculous extremes to avoid paying for our own health care and shift the costs on to the rest of society. That removes the crucial incentive to be prudent with personal health care spending.
> 
> When families have to make these decisions, when it's presented as a choice between blowing the family savings or squeezing every last minute out of life, people make better decisions. My own father was faced with that dilemma, and chose to accept reality and leave his wife with a decent retirement, rather than live his last few years clinging to life in a hospital bed and leave her with nothing.


Your point is well made and well taken.  

I'm 78.  According to my genetic profile I am programmed to live about another 8 - 10 years.  Whether or not I had Medicare, if I developed a disabling, life-threatening condition (cancer, etc.) I would opt to be hooked up to a morphine intraveinous to enjoy about 24 hours of ecstatic oblivion, then overdosed to die peacefully.  

But no such sensible, merciful option is available.  If it were, a lot of wasted Medicare money and personal estates could be saved and a lot of unnecessary suffering prevented.  

As the National (and world) populations continue to grow euthanasia will at some point become expediently necessary -- which makes perfect sense.  When Mother Nature decides it's time to go, and there is no good reason to argue with her, such as a curable condition in a younger subject, it makes sense to go along with Nature and not prolong the inevitable.


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## Treeshepherd (Dec 26, 2014)

HC as we know it is usually not a necessity. By far, the most common doctor visit is to seek treatment for a cold or flu. You don't need an MD for that. Rest, drink diluted orange juice and watch a season of Homeland on TV. Problem solved. 

Most pharmaceuticals are not necessary, or they work due to the placebo effect. Drugs and procedures often cause as many problems as they solve. Most people get too much health care. Too many drugs, unnecessary surgery, way too much anti-biotics and downright predatory medicine


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## Stephanie (Dec 26, 2014)

CrusaderFrank said:


> TakeAStepBack said:
> 
> 
> > Moonglow said:
> ...




good grief, people have set their own bones with two sticks if they were out hunting or something.  I swear .
 A person goes to school for eight to ten years to become a Doctor. but according the op it's a RACKET.


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## Treeshepherd (Dec 26, 2014)

Stephanie said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> > TakeAStepBack said:
> ...



You don't need to go to school for 8 years to stitch up a wound. You simply need good hand-eye coordination, sewing skills and a basic understanding of sterilization. A seamstress with a 2 year junior college degree could do it, for cheap. 

For broken bones, there used to be bonesetters. Now, it costs $4,000 to treat a broken arm. Even still, that's cheaper than insurance. I have no insurance. I could probably break an arm every year and save money by opting out of insurance. 

Baby boomers grew up with an inflated admiration of doctors, as if their word is infallible. Stats tell us that doctors misdiagnose problems 40% of the time. Misdiagnosis is more common than you think

A million people get a nasty infection from a hospital every year. 

 The greatest benefit of the modern age is not purple pills and expensive medical machines that go beep. It's the incredible opportunities we now have to educate ourselves about our own health.


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## Stephanie (Dec 26, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > DriftingSand said:
> ...



that's BS. There is thing called, making payments. You can do that with your health care the same as buying a car. Many people still do it and don't want you SPEAKING for them or sticking your nose in their business


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 26, 2014)

Stephanie said:


> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...


Yes, some people can make payments, and do. And, some people can't make payments, and don't. Just curious here, what do you think a monthly payment would be for an operation and hospital stay that cost $750,000? Have any idea ??


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## Treeshepherd (Dec 26, 2014)

I got news for the insured guy who needs a 750,000 operation. Insurance is going to fight you on that, tooth and nail, with Ivy League lawyers. They ain't paying either, and that's just one more reason why insurance is a total scam. 

Most likely, the insured guy who needs a 750,000 operation will be faced with a choice of going bankrupt, or filing a lawsuit against the place where they got hurt or some other cause of the problem.


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## Skull Pilot (Dec 26, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > Sonny Clark said:
> ...



The market does not dictate cost because people have no idea what their care will cost before they get it.

Tell me how much is a blood panel?
How much is an office visit?
How much is an X ray?

You have no clue what these things cost therefore you cannot apply market pressure by finding a provider who will do it for less.

And again health care is not a necessity.  People have been around for millions of years and most of those without any health care whatsoever.

If it was a necessity like food and water as you say we'd have gone extinct eons ago


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## Skull Pilot (Dec 26, 2014)

Jackinthebox said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah because millions of people die in the streets.
> ...



 and that has nothing to do with them being fat, smoking or drinking right?

The sole variable is health care right?


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 26, 2014)

Treeshepherd said:


> I got news for the insured guy who needs a 750,000 operation. Insurance is going to fight you on that, tooth and nail, with Ivy League lawyers. They ain't paying either, and that's just one more reason why insurance is a total scam.
> 
> Most likely, the insured guy who needs a 750,000 operation will be faced with a choice of going bankrupt, or filing a lawsuit against the place where they got hurt or some other cause of the problem.


FYI- Ridiculously high medical bills aren't rare. Expensive operations aren't rare. Even lesser amounts of $150,000.00 are very common. One year of kidney dialysis is way over $100,000.00, and there are hundreds of thousands on dialysis each and every week of the year. Blood pressure and heart medication can cost many thousands of dollars a year. Assisted care facilities aren't cheap. While insurance companies pay part of those bills, there are still expenses required of the patients. And, bankruptcy places the bills on taxpayers. Regardless of how you slice the pie, the majority can not afford to pay for their health care in its entirety. A simple fall by an elderly person can result in several hospital stays, as well as hip replacement and surgery. Automobile accidents can, and often do, result in enormous health care cost. Remember, insurance companies do not pay 100%. Someone, whether it's insurance companies or by other means, has to pay those costs. Not many people can afford to pay their way. Not many people can afford high insurance premiums. Not many people can afford extremely high deductibles. And, many have the very minimum coverage, or no coverage at all. If people were forced to pay their own way, either they couldn't afford care, or doctors and others in the health care industry would have to lower the charges and allow small monthly payments for the life of the patient.


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 26, 2014)

Skull Pilot said:


> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...


We'll agree to disagree on this subject. We're going around in circles here. I disagree with you, and you disagree with me. I stand by my view and opinion, and it's equally obvious that you're standing by your view and opinion.


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## Treeshepherd (Dec 26, 2014)

I can afford my care, because it's free. I had stitches when I was 17, and that was my last doctor visit. 

I just ate an orange. I do yoga. I drink aloe vera to sooth my stomach after drinking too much over the holidays, and I take at least 1 month off per year from drinking. 

Most importantly, I haven't taken anti-biotics for like, I don't even remember, maybe 30 years. The strongest medicine I've taken during that time is aspirin. I've let my own body do the healing, so my immune system is incredibly powerful. When germs enter my body, the germs get sick. 

My strategy is a legitimate health strategy, but it takes decades to develop this level of resistance. I could probably sell my gut fauna online. 

The alternative is to get put on drugs for a lifetime, because a doctor can always find a problem. "Sorry, patient, you have disease X". Now, you're labelled. Now, the placebo effect works toward the negative and you're locked into a lifetime of psycho-somatic symptoms.


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 26, 2014)

Treeshepherd said:


> I can afford my care, because it's free. I had stitches when I was 17, and that was my last doctor visit.
> 
> I just ate an orange. I do yoga. I drink aloe vera to sooth my stomach after drinking too much over the holidays, and I take at least 1 month off per year from drinking.
> 
> ...


Congrats on your lifetime of good health. Unfortunately, that is not the case with many people. Not everyone that gets sick is engaging in bad habits or dangerous living. Some require health care due to aging, others due to accidents, others due to exposure to some illness, and others get sick from infections and diseases. No one intentionally does something to warrant a doctor or hospital care.


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## dblack (Dec 26, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > DriftingSand said:
> ...



Again, I think we have to stop and think about the basic assumptions at work here. How are you defining 'basic health care'? I'd argue that, rather than picking some arbitrary minimum of health care, and then whining because everyone can't afford it, it makes more sense to establish our idea of basic health care based on what most people can afford. Our expectations need to match reality, and currently, they don't.


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 26, 2014)

dblack said:


> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...


Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I don't recall using the term "basic health care". Is there such a thing as "basic health care"? Health care is whatever is required to make a patient as healthy as possible. Different people see doctors for different reasons. Different people are admitted to a hospital for different reasons. Lab tests are done for different reasons. X-Rays and MRI's are done for different reasons. Prescriptions are written for different patients for different reasons. So, what is "basic health care"? There are many reasons why someone gets treatment and follow-up attention. I don't believe that I've ever used the term "basic health care".


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 26, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Sonny Clark said:
> ...


*** CORRECTION *******  Yes, I did say "basic health care". I'm sorry. I meant to say "proper health care". Please ignore where I said "basic health care". I meant "proper health care". My bad. A slip on my part. Sorry.


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## dblack (Dec 26, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
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What's the difference?


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 26, 2014)

dblack said:


> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> > Sonny Clark said:
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I do not believe that there is such a thing as "basic health care". On the other hand, I do believe that there is such a thing as "proper health care". "Proper health care" is doctors, and others in the health care profession, doing everything necessary to treat patients. In other words, whatever it takes to heal, cure, treat, or relieve pain and suffering. Patients want and expect results, and not mal-practice and 2nd rate care. It's way too expensive not to get what one pays for.


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## dblack (Dec 26, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


> I do not believe that there is such a thing as "basic health care". On the other hand, I do believe that there is such a thing as "proper health care". "Proper health care" is doctors, and others in the health care profession, doing *everything necessary* to treat patients. In other words, whatever it takes to heal, cure, treat, or relieve pain and suffering. Patients want and expect results, and not mal-practice and 2nd rate care. It's way too expensive not to get what one pays for.



Everything necessary??? Don't you realize that's an infinite requirement?


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 26, 2014)

dblack said:


> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> > I do not believe that there is such a thing as "basic health care". On the other hand, I do believe that there is such a thing as "proper health care". "Proper health care" is doctors, and others in the health care profession, doing *everything necessary* to treat patients. In other words, whatever it takes to heal, cure, treat, or relieve pain and suffering. Patients want and expect results, and not mal-practice and 2nd rate care. It's way too expensive not to get what one pays for.
> ...


It means that those in the medical profession do their jobs to the best of their ability, period. What is an infinite requirement? Once a patient is well, and no longer seeing a doctor, how can that be infinite? If a patient sees a doctor for a broken bone, and the doctor does a great job of resetting the bone, why would that be infinite care or treatment?


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## dblack (Dec 26, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Sonny Clark said:
> ...



Because every single one of us reaches a point where our health care requirements are infinite. Where keeping us alive would require more work from more doctors than the world has available. and long before that point is reached, we're using up more health core resources than we can afford. One of the facts of reality, that reasonable mature people accept, is that not everyone can have "the best". Most of us have to settle for something less.


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## kiwiman127 (Dec 26, 2014)

TakeAStepBack said:


> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> > Nosmo King said:
> ...



Ah, the ole' standard blah, blah government, blah, regulations, blah.
I live in Minnesota which has the best healthcare system in the country, the lowest costs for healthcare insurance, the healthiest citizens and the most heavily regulated healthcare in the country. Heathcare providers aren't clamoring to the leave the state, in fact, we have had large out-state providers trying to get in the state.
TakeAStepBack, you should try another approach, an educated approach.


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 26, 2014)

dblack said:


> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...


No, not every single person reaches a point where health care requirements are infinite. Many people die from natural causes, old age, car accidents, heart attacks, strokes, deadly diseases, natural disasters, murder, execution, neglect, abuse, and infections. Yes, some require health care for long periods before they either die or heal. In the same breath, many people go through life requiring very little medical attention. Also, "proper health care" does not mean "the best". "The best" is done by those in the medical profession that are of greater expertise and abilities than others. Some are specialists, some are more dedicated and better trained, and some are of natural GOD given talent. Those are not found in every city and community. Common sense tells us that "the best" is not always available to everyone. But, "proper health care" should be expected from those in the profession that agrees to accept the responsibility of their patients well-being.


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## dblack (Dec 26, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


> No, not every single person reaches a point where health care requirements are infinite.


Most of us, in fact, do. Most of us reach a point where there just isn't enough money or medical attention available to extend our lives any further. And demanding that doctors spend expend all of their efforts on every patient is childish and insane.



> Also, "proper health care" does not mean "the best". "The best" is done by those in the medical profession that are of greater expertise and abilities than others. Some are specialists, some are more dedicated and better trained, and some are of natural GOD given talent. Those are not found in every city and community. Common sense tells us that "the best" is not always available to everyone. But, "proper health care" should be expected from those in the profession that agrees to accept the responsibility of their patients well-being.



Then you need to clarify your expectations, because you defined "proper" health care as "doing everything necessary to treat patients". What does that mean to you? Everything necessary for what?

Again, I can't help but observe that this basic demand is unrealistic and delusional. And it's at the heart of the foolish healthcare regulation driving price inflation. It's, quite literally, killing us.


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 26, 2014)

dblack said:


> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> > No, not every single person reaches a point where health care requirements are infinite.
> ...


Doing everything possible means that a medical professional does what he/she can considering his education and experience. In other words, they treat their patients with the best according to their ability. They use every single ounce of resources available to properly treat patients. It means that they don't do their job half-ass. They get paid the same whether they do a good job or a lousy job. They charge the same regardless of what they do or don't do. They should do everything necessary to properly treat their patients. No, it's not unrealistic, nor is it delusional. People should expect and get professional quality care from those in the health care industry. What drives prices in the health care industry is GREED, GREED, and more GREED. There's no excuse for charging $5.00 for an aspirin, $300.00 for a five minute conversation with a doctor, nor an excuse for charging $1,800 a day for a tiny filthy hospital room. The whole health care industry is caught up in GREED.


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## dblack (Dec 26, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


> Doing everything possible means that a medical professional does what he/she can considering his education and experience. In other words, they treat their patients with the best according to their ability. They use every single ounce of resources available to properly treat patients.


And how in the world do you expect them to do that for every single patient???



> No, it's not unrealistic, nor is it delusional. People should expect and get professional quality care from those in the health care industry.


Even if they can't pay for it? Seriously???



> What drives prices in the health care industry is GREED, GREED, and more GREED. There's no excuse for charging $5.00 for an aspirin, $300.00 for a five minute conversation with a doctor, nor an excuse for charging $1,800 a day for a tiny filthy hospital room. The whole health care industry is caught up in GREED.



Sure, there's some of that. And the dumbass insurance scams we delude ourselves with are the primary means of feeding that greed. But frankly, your ridiculous expectations sound far greedier than the ambitions of medical professionals. They're just after money. You want unlimited servitude.


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 26, 2014)

dblack said:


> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> > Doing everything possible means that a medical professional does what he/she can considering his education and experience. In other words, they treat their patients with the best according to their ability. They use every single ounce of resources available to properly treat patients.
> ...


No, not correct. I do NOT want servitude, unlimited or otherwise. Yes, the whole health care industry is after your money, and has been for a very long time. Yes, insurance companies also contribute to the scam, I agree. It's the whole of the health care industry, no exceptions. All I want is to get what I pay for, nothing more, nothing less. I have absolutely no interest in servitude of any kind. By the way, insurance companies pay according to what the health care professionals charge for services. Insurance companies do not add items to the bills. They have codes for each item, and the charges associated with those codes. What they don't pay, the patient is responsible for.


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## dblack (Dec 26, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Sonny Clark said:
> ...



Well, you're just contradicting yourself. Do you want what you pay for, or do you want "every single ounce of resources available"? Because those aren't the same things. It's our inability to accept that reality that's driving health care prices through the roof.


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 26, 2014)

dblack said:


> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...


No contradiction at all. Healthcare professionals do not display signs as to the quality and grade of their services. It is unspoken that you'll get their best possible care and treatment. They do not ask a patient what level or grade of service they want. They do what they feel like doing, and charge what they feel like charging. I pay for quality, and I expect quality. I know of no health care professional that charges according to a certain level or grade of service. Have you ever seen or heard of a bill that shows a grade or level of service beside each item listed? Health care cost rises through the roof because the health care industry is a money machine kept running through GREED. No one tells a doctor what to charge for an office visit. No one tells a hospital that they can't charge $5.00 for a single aspirin. No one tells a lab that they can't charge $2,000 for a simple work-up on a blood sample. The industry is based on GREED. And, since it's a necessity, they can get by with it. Just like fresh drinking water, the water company can charge what they want because they know you need it and can't get it yourself. You depend on their water lines, they water treatment process, and for their services. How much would you pay for fresh drinking water when you turned on your taps at the house? What's it worth to you? The same goes for proper health care. We pay because we have no choice but to pay when we're in pain, and can't cure or heal ourselves. If you're hurt bad enough, you'll find an emergency room.


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## dblack (Dec 26, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


> No contradiction at all. Healthcare professionals do not display signs as to the quality and grade of their services. It is unspoken that you'll get their best possible care and treatment. They do not ask a patient what level or grade of service they want. They do what they feel like doing, and charge what they feel like charging. I pay for quality, and I expect quality. I know of no health care professional that charges according to a certain level or grade of service. Have you ever seen or heard of a bill that shows a grade or level of service beside each item listed? Health care cost rises through the roof because the health care industry is a money machine kept running through GREED. No one tells a doctor what to charge for an office visit. No one tells a hospital that they can't charge $5.00 for a single aspirin. No one tells a lab that they can't charge $2,000 for a simple work-up on a blood sample. The industry is based on GREED. And, since it's a necessity, they can get by with it. Just like fresh drinking water, the water company can charge what they want because they know you need it and can't get it yourself. You depend on their water lines, they water treatment process, and for their services. How much would you pay for fresh drinking water when you turned on your taps at the house? What's it worth to you? The same goes for proper health care. We pay because we have no choice but to pay when we're in pain, and can't cure or heal ourselves. If you're hurt bad enough, you'll find an emergency room.



Not buyin' it. Your expectations are demonstrably irrational and would be laughable if they didn't, in sad point of fact, reflect the prevailing opinion of American health care consumers.


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 26, 2014)

dblack said:


> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> > No contradiction at all. Healthcare professionals do not display signs as to the quality and grade of their services. It is unspoken that you'll get their best possible care and treatment. They do not ask a patient what level or grade of service they want. They do what they feel like doing, and charge what they feel like charging. I pay for quality, and I expect quality. I know of no health care professional that charges according to a certain level or grade of service. Have you ever seen or heard of a bill that shows a grade or level of service beside each item listed? Health care cost rises through the roof because the health care industry is a money machine kept running through GREED. No one tells a doctor what to charge for an office visit. No one tells a hospital that they can't charge $5.00 for a single aspirin. No one tells a lab that they can't charge $2,000 for a simple work-up on a blood sample. The industry is based on GREED. And, since it's a necessity, they can get by with it. Just like fresh drinking water, the water company can charge what they want because they know you need it and can't get it yourself. You depend on their water lines, they water treatment process, and for their services. How much would you pay for fresh drinking water when you turned on your taps at the house? What's it worth to you? The same goes for proper health care. We pay because we have no choice but to pay when we're in pain, and can't cure or heal ourselves. If you're hurt bad enough, you'll find an emergency room.
> ...


There's no other way to think of it, or to see it. The poor and less fortunate can't afford proper health care, and most can't pay for services out of their own pockets. And, yes, It's a money game where GREED is the only rule to play by. In addition, you have not shown nor explain any other possible solution that would be doable and workable. Your main argument is that everyone should pay for their own health care, and those that can't, can just die in the streets. I fail to see that line of thinking as reasonable or acceptable. But, you're entitled to your opinion, and I respect you right to express it.


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## Ame®icano (Dec 26, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


> Just like water, food, shelter, and clothing, proper health care is a necessity....
> ...



Newsflash, you're paying for all those necessities.


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## Ame®icano (Dec 26, 2014)

CrusaderFrank said:


> TakeAStepBack said:
> 
> 
> > Moonglow said:
> ...



Exactly. 

People who claim we can't pay for doctors and medications, selling us idea that we can pay for the same if government runs it.


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 26, 2014)

Ame®icano said:


> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> > Just like water, food, shelter, and clothing, proper health care is a necessity....
> ...


Of course I am, and so is millions of others. I do NOT expect those things to be free of charge. I do NOT mind paying for what I get or use. I do NOT expect everything for free, and never ever implied such.


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## Ame®icano (Dec 26, 2014)

dblack said:


> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



Not so long ago, liberals were claiming that health care is a right. All because of "some people" in safety net cracks. After ACA, there are still people in those cracks. It's time for them to start pushing for health care as "right" again, most likely in next election cycle.


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 26, 2014)

Ame®icano said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> > TakeAStepBack said:
> ...


I would never ever say that. We should pay for services rendered. I'm against "FREE" everything. But, health care has gotten way too expensive for all but the very wealthy to pay all out of pocket. I would never ever say that the government should run any public program or service. We are already damaged enough by government intervention and regulations.


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## TakeAStepBack (Dec 26, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


> I would never ever say that the government should run any public program or service.



What?


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 26, 2014)

Ame®icano said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Sonny Clark said:
> ...


Health care is a necessity, not a right. And, it doesn't matter whether one is a Liberal, Conservative, Republican, Democrat, Right Wing, Left Wing, or an Independent, everyone needs proper health care. Everyone should see and understand that people can NOT treat themselves, heal themselves, cure themselves, transplant organs themselves, nor remove kidney stones themselves. We need those in the health care profession to provide those services.


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 26, 2014)

TakeAStepBack said:


> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> > I would never ever say that the government should run any public program or service.
> ...


Re-read it please. I think that I said it correctly.


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## TakeAStepBack (Dec 26, 2014)

The only entity in existence to run the mythological "public" anything is government. Otherwise it is considered private. That is the distinction we generally use to separate what is run by government and what is not.


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 26, 2014)

TakeAStepBack said:


> The only entity in existence to run the mythological "public" anything is government. Otherwise it is considered private. That is the distinction we generally use to separate what is run by government and what is not.


When it comes to health care, the government does way more damage than good. Government needs to stay out of it and allow the public sector to regulate and control it. The government is all about favoritism and kick-backs.


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## Ame®icano (Dec 26, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


> Ame®icano said:
> 
> 
> > Sonny Clark said:
> ...



I agree, you as individual, were talking about necessities. Food, water, shelter, healthcare... 

But when government talk about all those necessities (see communist manifesto, or USSR constitution) they calling them rights. Why? Because, that's the only way that will make people to accept complete government control over it.

Group all those things together in package. Water is necessity. Food is necessity too. What about roof over the head? Sure. Throw in healthcare. How about a good paying government job. Why not? You cant be happy without gun control, right? 

People fall for those things. Free stuff. As long someone else is paying for it. 

If a "right" requires others to actively work and spend their time to provide someone else with something, it is by definition not a right.


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## Ame®icano (Dec 26, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


> Ame®icano said:
> 
> 
> > CrusaderFrank said:
> ...



Health care became too expensive exactly because of government involvement. And the government solution to keep the price low is more government involvement. 

So, if we are, as you say, "damaged enough by government involvement", what the real solution would be?


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 26, 2014)

Ame®icano said:


> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> > Ame®icano said:
> ...


Yes, food, water, shelter, clothing, and health care are very much necessities. We, as a civilized and humane people, would never deny those to anyone. We do not need the government to use those necessities as instruments of control and enslavement. I am totally against allowing government to have absolute control over human needs and necessities such as I have already mentioned. They are required needs by all humans, regardless of the size of one's wallet. They are to be provided as best we can, available to all, no exceptions. We are not so uncivil and cold hearted as to withhold life enabling necessities to anyone. The government is way too big, way too controlling, and way to powerful for the general good of the people. The Washington Brotherhood acts as an entity unto itself, answerable to no one except itself. We have failed ourselves, and have failed our fellow man by allowing this to happen. As far as "FREE" stuff, the only ones that deserve "FREE" stuff ( necessities ), are those poor and less fortunate among us. We can't turn our backs to them and allow them to perish for lack of food, water, shelter, clothing, and health care when needed. We must help our fellow man and do what's right and just. We are not animalistic, nor are we barbaric by nature. We have hearts and human feelings and emotions. How can we stand-by and watch someone starve to death, go without fresh drinking water, go naked, and suffer due to lack of proper medical treatment? That is not who we are, nor who we want to be. Remember when looking down on the poor and less fortunate, "except for the grace of GOD, there goes I". We all could be in their place under the right situation and circumstances.


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## TakeAStepBack (Dec 26, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


> TakeAStepBack said:
> 
> 
> > The only entity in existence to run the mythological "public" anything is government. Otherwise it is considered private. That is the distinction we generally use to separate what is run by government and what is not.
> ...



Once again, the public sector distinction is made to show it is a government entity of some form. Otherwise it is all considered private. I agree with what you're saying, but you'r using public where you should be using private.


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## dblack (Dec 26, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


> There's no other way to think of it, or to see it. The poor and less fortunate can't afford proper health care, and most can't pay for services out of their own pockets. And, yes, It's a money game where GREED is the only rule to play by. In addition, you have not shown nor explain any other possible solution that would be doable and workable. Your main argument is that everyone should pay for their own health care, and *those that can't, can just die in the streets.*



I said nothing like that. From what I'm reading, you're making less and less sense as you go on. Are you ok?


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 26, 2014)

Ame®icano said:


> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> > Ame®icano said:
> ...


"What real solution would there be?". Thanks for asking. As I have said, written about, mentioned, and preached for many years now, the solution is to convince, beg if necessary, voters to STOP electing and re-electing professional politicians to serve in government. Remember, professional politicians are all about egos, greed, self-service, power, and climbing the political ladder at all cost. Once elected to office, they exert their will, and not the will of the people. Professional politicians are bought and paid for. We have a Lobbyist controlled U.S. Congress, and an oval office bought and paid for. All of them owe favors. All of them accept money and other favors for their votes on the floors of Congress. Honesty and politics mix like water and oil. The voting public could send a very strong message by writing-in a candidate instead of voting for those that the wealthy, the powerful, and the influential have placed on the ballots. Until that happens, we can all expect the same from government as we're getting now, and have gotten for many decades, through many administrations. As it stands now, the majority of the voting public suffers from "Blind Patriotism", which is a terrible affliction. I can go into more detail if you'd like.


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 26, 2014)

TakeAStepBack said:


> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> > TakeAStepBack said:
> ...


OK, for your benefit, I'll use "private". What I meant by saying public, is anything other than government. I am against government control.


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 26, 2014)

dblack said:


> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> > There's no other way to think of it, or to see it. The poor and less fortunate can't afford proper health care, and most can't pay for services out of their own pockets. And, yes, It's a money game where GREED is the only rule to play by. In addition, you have not shown nor explain any other possible solution that would be doable and workable. Your main argument is that everyone should pay for their own health care, and *those that can't, can just die in the streets.*
> ...


Yes, I'm fine, thank you. What doesn't make sense to you? Just let me know and I'll be glad to explain it in a different way.


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## dblack (Dec 26, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Sonny Clark said:
> ...



The public/private thing lost me entirely.


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## Ame®icano (Dec 26, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


> Ame®icano said:
> 
> 
> > Sonny Clark said:
> ...



Some people love free stuff. Some people love honesty. 

Those who love free stuff will keep voting for those who are promising them free stuff. 

Based on what you wrote, you prefer honesty. You want career politicians out of office. You want liars out of office too. Only group that doesn't fit in what you just described above are teapartiers. So, do you support them?


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 26, 2014)

dblack said:


> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...


Understandable. I meant non-government. I guess that I should've said "private" instead of "public". Anyway, I did mean non-government. I'm sorry that I wasn't a little more clear as to what I meant.


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 26, 2014)

Ame®icano said:


> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> > Ame®icano said:
> ...


I support anyone that is pro-America. I support anyone that believes in rights, freedom, liberty, justice, and a truly representative government seated in Washington. I support all that want justice to mean justice, freedom to mean freedom, and those that believe that the government should always act in the best interest of this nation and her citizens. I am totally against an anti-America government, such we have now, and have had for many decades now. I am totally against anti-America representatives seated in Congress. I am totally against political labels that divide us. I believe that the only label we should claim is "AMERICAN". I believe that we should be Americans for America. Division has destroyed us. Division gives the Washington Brotherhood power. The enemy of anti-America politicians is a united citizenry. As long as they can keep us divided, they win, we lose. I am very much for a government that protects and serves the citizenry, and only serves the citizenry. I am for a government by the people, and for the people. I am totally against a government by the rich and powerful, for the rich and powerful. By the way, what you're calling "free stuff" is paid for by taxpayers. That includes those that pay sales tax, and any other tax. Even those receiving some form of government assistance, are paying into the system each time they make a purchase. The government collects money from taxpaying citizens, so that money belongs to taxpaying citizens. Had you rather see foreign governments get it? Had you rather it spent on the care and support of illegal immigrants? Had you rather it continue to go to rich farmers and big oil? What about continuing to supply weapons to drug lords and terrorists? What other ways would you like to see the government spend your hard earned tax dollars?


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## Ame®icano (Dec 26, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


> Ame®icano said:
> 
> 
> > Sonny Clark said:
> ...



You probably know that when is say "free stuff" means it's free for those who consume it. OK, lets go back to the "necessities".

We're told we owe something to those who don't have it, whatever it is, or we're worthless. If we don't give them that, whatever it is, system is gonna take it anyways. It's a system which is breeding hatred and malice to both our peers and our "representatives". We're told we have moral obligations... and we're lied to. America became one giant credit card in hands of politicians where only about a half of us is getting the bill.


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 27, 2014)

Ame®icano said:


> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> > Ame®icano said:
> ...


First, the government has created this situation. And secondly, the American people continue to support the government in their efforts to create a poor and dependent society. The government has taken away the opportunities to be a self-supporting people. Thirdly, the same people that are complaining, are the very ones that go to the polls on election day and cast votes to either elect, or to re-elect a professional politician. Go figure. Yes, we have a percentage not paying into the system, but that is basically through no fault of their own. No one wants to be poor, dependent, living on the streets and in shelters, eating out of trash cans, and enduring misery and pain every single day. Believe it or not, everyone would like to be multi-millionaires, living in mansions, driving Bentleys, and eating high on the hog and drinking expensive wine. But, our government has created the dependency via anti-America legislation and policies. We often blame the wrong ones, misunderstand what happened and how it happened, and expect things to change even though we continue to do the same things expecting a different result. Don't blame the poor and less fortunate, blame those that created the situation. Our political machine along with The Washington Brotherhood is the problem, yet voters continue to feed the monster.


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## MikeK (Dec 27, 2014)

Treeshepherd said:


> [...]
> 
> For broken bones, there used to be bonesetters. Now, it costs $4,000 to treat a broken arm. Even still, that's cheaper than insurance. I have no insurance. I could probably break an arm every year and save money by opting out of insurance.
> 
> [...]


What you're suggesting makes sense -- provided you never have a major medical expense.

E.g., I resented paying the monthly fee for GHI & Blue Shield coverage back in 1997.  But when a stomach ache turned out to be colon cancer it ended up costing $117,000 for surgery, etc.

I got away with a $1,200 co-payment.  If I didn't have the insurance I would have ended up either paying that big bill or losing my house.

In 2003 I turned up with prostate cancer.  There went another $92,000 treatment (surgery & radiation), but by then I was on Medicare.

Now I'm dealing with some kind of lumbar agony which as yet is undiagnosed.  But I've already started racking up specialist bills and I'm scheduled for an MRI next week (God bless Medicare).  So what you're really talking about is a big financial risk which I am very glad I didn't take.

Those monthly insurance payments hurt -- but all it takes is one big medical problem to financially ruin you if you don't have the insurance.  So until the U.S. adopts universal federal health care the medical industry and the insurance companies are calling the shots.


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## Jackinthebox (Dec 27, 2014)

MikeK said:


> Treeshepherd said:
> 
> 
> > [...]
> ...



Here's another thought too. Insurance may cost more in a year than what your normal out of pocket expense would be for a single incident, but most people can't simply put away that money. It winds up being spent on other necessities. So when the time comes to pay for that broken arm, you still don't have the money to do it. (A broken arms is a HELL OF A LOT more expensive than $4k too.) This is why workers usually file 0 throughout the year with their employer, so that their paychecks are hit with the max deduction, so that they are sure to get a nice tax return at the end of the year. taking that deduction throughout the year, the money just gets pissed away. 

I was just hit with a $12k bill for a 12 hour visit to the ER after I was attacked by a stranger a few weeks ago. The ambulance ride was another $1600 for an ALS transport.


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## Treeshepherd (Dec 27, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


> Treeshepherd said:
> 
> 
> > I can afford my care, because it's free. I had stitches when I was 17, and that was my last doctor visit.
> ...



I haven't had a lifetime of perfect health. I just haven't had a condition yet which I was unable to self-diagnose and rehab without the involvement of the Healthcare Industrial Complex. 

Besides the fact that I've been living in my own body for 45 years (and a doctor sees a patient for a half hour, and often speaks poor English ), I have the internet. I have 5,000 years of compiled alternative remedies, including herbs. 

Also, I got off to a good start with a healthy mother who breast fed me and then put me on a home cooked diet. Had I been born 15 years prior, the medical establishment would have recommended Hershey's baby formula. Had I been born 15 years later, I'd perhaps have grown up on corn syrup and GMOs.


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## Treeshepherd (Dec 27, 2014)

Jackinthebox said:


> MikeK said:
> 
> 
> > Treeshepherd said:
> ...



Cost of a regular broken arm is $2500 and up. Cost of a Broken Arm - Consumer Information
It's more expensive if you need surgery to repair some kind of nerve damage or something. Or, if the doctor has a balloon payment due on his vacation home and therefore determines that you need extra care. 

How much $ have I saved from not buying insurance since I was 24? That would be 21 years x 12 months of payments. Let's say I had a $300 policy. That would be $75,600.00. 
And, that's with a high deductible, I'm assuming. I don't really now what kind of deal I could get. I've never looked into it.


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## Conservative65 (Dec 27, 2014)

TakeAStepBack said:


> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> > Capitalism at it's best...
> ...



What those who support Obamacare don't get is that there


Sonny Clark said:


> Stephanie said:
> 
> 
> > Sonny Clark said:
> ...




I'll use my insurance as an example.  It would cost me $750 out of pocket max.  My insurance is called health reimbursement.  My deductible is $3000 of which my employer pays $2250 after I pay the first $750.  My total out of pocket is $6000/year.  After the $3000 deductible is met, my coverage is 80/20  which my employer covers that 20% if it's inpatient.  That means once the $6000 is met, I no longer pay a dime.  Since $2250 of the deductible and all $3000 of the next $3000 to get to the max out of pocket of $6000 is covered, I pay no more than $750 out of pocket personally.  

I recently had knee replacement surgery.  The total of all bills for pre surgery PT, surgery, anesthesia, surgeon fee, hospital fees, post surgery PT, etc. was about $85000.  I paid $750.  Once all the bills came in and my employer wrote me the reimbursement for $5250, I paid the $6000 in bills.


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## Conservative65 (Dec 27, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


> Treeshepherd said:
> 
> 
> > I can afford my care, because it's free. I had stitches when I was 17, and that was my last doctor visit.
> ...



"No one intentionally does something to warrant a doctor or hospital care."

Incorrect.  I am a volunteer Firefighter/EMT.  Not too long ago we ran a failed suicide attempt.  I can promise you the person went to the hospital and can guarantee he intentionally did to himself what warranted that hospital care.


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 27, 2014)

Conservative65 said:


> TakeAStepBack said:
> 
> 
> > Moonglow said:
> ...


That's because you had insurance. I wasn't talking about people that have some type of coverage. I was talking about people with zero coverage.


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## Conservative65 (Dec 27, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


> 80zephyr said:
> 
> 
> > Sonny Clark said:
> ...



I thought businesses went into business to make profit.  If a business makes a profit, although you might think it's too much, how is that greed?


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## Conservative65 (Dec 27, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> > TakeAStepBack said:
> ...



When they can go to the hospital or doctor and the rest of us pay more, why would they have coverage?  I'm old enough to remember when there was something called Major Medical.  It covered major medical events like the surgery I had, broken arms, and other major things for which people couldn't pay out of pocket.  Basic doctor's visits were paid out of pocket.  It worked well as far as I know.


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## Conservative65 (Dec 27, 2014)

Jackinthebox said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > "Some people" aren't the problem. The problem isn't social safety nets. The problem is that we're trying to fit *everyone* into those safety nets, which defeats the purpose. The only way we can help out the people who fall through the cracks is if most of us are paying our own way.
> ...



With all the opportunities people have today, how does anyone still only have skills to make minimum wage?


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## Conservative65 (Dec 27, 2014)

dblack said:


> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



Last year my daughters went to get their flu shots.  There was a sign in the office that stated if someone didn't have insurance, the shot costs $10.  I guess that covered the cost of the vaccine.  Don't know, just speculating.  My daughters are covered under my insurance and, while there wasn't a copay for such services, when I got the bill for what my insurance didn't cover, it costs me more than $10.  I called and asked why I couldn't have just paid the $10.  I was told it was because I had insurance.  I have a feeling the charge my insurance paid and what I paid beyond what they covered made up for what the doctors didn't charge those without insurance.


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 27, 2014)

Conservative65 said:


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There is a difference between a profit and extremely greedy gains. Lets say that it cost an oil company $10.00 a barrel to extract the oil. Lets say that refining and transportation cost another $20.00 a barrel. Let say that the oil company needs at least $20.00 per barrel profit in order to satisfy stock holders. That's $50.00 per barrel net to meet operating needs and show a profit. And, now lets say that commodity speculators push that price to $110.00 per barrel. Profit or Greed? Lets say that a hospital buys aspirins for $3.00 per bottle of a 100 tablets. And, lets say that they charge patients $5.00 for a single aspirin. Profit or Greed? Lets say an auto mechanic buys spark plugs for $1.50 each. And, lets say that after he installs them in a customers car, he charges $10.00 per plug. Profit or Greed? That's just for the spark plug, not the labor. There are many examples of price gouging. I remember when gas stations were fined for price gouging. It happens each and every day. That's why CEO's make $40,000,000 per year plus stock options.


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## Conservative65 (Dec 27, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


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There is a difference only to those who think it's their place to define how much the other guy should make.

Don't drive a vehicle that uses gas.  Buy your own spark plugs and replace them yourself.  It's not price gouging if there are options not requiring the use of those things.  

A CEO makes what he/she makes because those running the company decide to do that.  I could say what you make is too much and that unless you're willing to make less so someone else can make more, you're greedy.  See how that works?


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 27, 2014)

Conservative65 said:


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I understand your point.


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## Treeshepherd (Dec 27, 2014)

Conservative65 said:


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Unless a kid is immune compromised, he/she doesn't need a flu shot, especially since its effectiveness is dubious. It's total overkill how many shots kids get today (and profit driven).
What's in a flu shot? Probably nothing helpful. What else? Formaldehyde, egg protein, Octylphenol ethoxylate, gelatin derived from pigs, and Thimerosal.

Flu vaccine effectiveness is almost always measured simply by the presence of antibodies, and not actual epidemiological verifiable results. In fact, the vaccine can backfire if the subject is exposed to a strong flu strain not covered by the jab. In that case, you're much better off by having natural antibodies which are not 'specialized' or 'engineered' to fight specific flu strains.
Medical Xpress Vaccination may make flu worse if exposed to a second strain


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## Treeshepherd (Dec 27, 2014)

The concern of doctors is to make things as simple as possible, and not give people 'dangerous' information which might confuse people or discourage them from following the program. 
I saw a program on PBS where the doctors were concerned about informing patients about side effects. Their rationale; the power of the mind is so influential over health that any suggestion of a side effects can indeed cause that effect to materialize. The placebo effect is incredibly powerful, to both the positive and the negative.

If you understand the power of the mind over health, you realize that maybe an inert shot of saline solution might have a powerful effect in preventing flu. If flu vaccines are effective, it's most likely due to a placebo effect.


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## dblack (Dec 27, 2014)

Conservative65 said:


> When they can go to the hospital or doctor and the rest of us pay more, why would they have coverage?  I'm old enough to remember when there was something called Major Medical.  It covered major medical events like the surgery I had, broken arms, and other major things for which people couldn't pay out of pocket.  Basic doctor's visits were paid out of pocket.  It worked well as far as I know.



Exactly. This is the only way insurance makes any sense - as a way to cover catastrophes that most of us won't have to face. For expenses we _can _reasonably expect, it makes far more sense to pay for them out of pocket, or via a payment plan. Using insurance to finance regular expenses is a sucker's game. Used in that way it's essentially a high priced credit card. But it's even worse than that because, once insurance becomes the principal means of funding in a given market, it perverts incentives and inflates prices.

This won't change by regulating insurance via government, or even by providing insurance with government ala "single payer". It will still be a dumb way to finance regular health care expenses.


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## Ame®icano (Dec 27, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


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Without getting in "why they have no coverage", I am asking why am I, or should I be responsible for them?


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## JoeMoma (Dec 27, 2014)

Stephanie said:


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Making payments is essentially what we are doing when we pay for insurance, only we are making the payments on the front end when the cost of medical care is not known so there can be no haggling.


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## Ame®icano (Dec 27, 2014)

Conservative65 said:


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Only those who envy call it a greed.


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## DriftingSand (Dec 27, 2014)

JoeMoma said:


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I know one thing for certain:  I've paid a LOT more payments to the insurance companies than I've received in medical care.  There's a good reason why all the major insurance companies have giant, high-rise buildings in every major city in the USA (and in other parts of the world in some cases).  There's a good reason why all the major insurance companies have an endless supply of commercials on all the major radio and television stations.  It's also interesting to note that the moment you need them to pay for something they make your pay a deductible or co-pay before they cover 50% or 80% of the remaining portion.  It's the scam of the century!!!


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## dblack (Dec 27, 2014)

JoeMoma said:


> Stephanie said:
> 
> 
> > that's BS. There is thing called, making payments. You can do that with your health care the same as buying a car. Many people still do it and don't want you SPEAKING for them or sticking your nose in their business
> ...



No, it's fundamentally different. Payments for a given service are limited to the cost of the service. This preserves accountability and encourages people to look for value. Insurance breaks that accountability and encourages people to spend as much as they can get away with because it wont have any direct effect on their "payments".


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## JoeMoma (Dec 27, 2014)

dblack said:


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Yes, the payments are fundlementally different.  But both involve a routine transfer of money at periodic intervals which I still call making payments.  With the exception of a very minor point of sematics, I am in agreement with you.


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## Treeshepherd (Dec 27, 2014)

dblack said:


> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> > When they can go to the hospital or doctor and the rest of us pay more, why would they have coverage?  I'm old enough to remember when there was something called Major Medical.  It covered major medical events like the surgery I had, broken arms, and other major things for which people couldn't pay out of pocket.  Basic doctor's visits were paid out of pocket.  It worked well as far as I know.
> ...



The libertarian vision of health care makes sense. A guy could have a junior college degree in stitching, anesthesia and sterilization and do an adequate job stitching my mosh pit wound, for cheap. There would be no MD gatekeeper monopoly. 

I don't know if I'd join the system if we had single payer, but at least single payer makes sense logistically. If there is one single entity reimbursing a hospital for an overnight stay in a hospital, they would refuse to pay the same rate as an overnight stay at the Hilton in Maui. 

What we have with the ACA is the worst of both worlds. It doesn't add up mathematically. Some guy on this thread said that his knee replacement costs $85,000. Somebody has to pay for that. The money doesn't just fall from heaven.


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## Conservative65 (Dec 28, 2014)

Treeshepherd said:


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I was the one that had the knee replacement.  I realize the money doesn't fall from heaven.  It's paid by my insurance.  Also, while the bills added up to $85,000, there are all sorts of contractual discounts that will actually reduce the real costs.


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## Conservative65 (Dec 28, 2014)

Ame®icano said:


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They define greed as a business making more than the one complaining thinks that business should make.


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## Conservative65 (Dec 28, 2014)

Ame®icano said:


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Neither you nor I should be responsible for them.


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## Conservative65 (Dec 28, 2014)

dblack said:


> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> > When they can go to the hospital or doctor and the rest of us pay more, why would they have coverage?  I'm old enough to remember when there was something called Major Medical.  It covered major medical events like the surgery I had, broken arms, and other major things for which people couldn't pay out of pocket.  Basic doctor's visits were paid out of pocket.  It worked well as far as I know.
> ...



Single payer is nothing more than ANOTHER form of redistribution.


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## Conservative65 (Dec 28, 2014)

Treeshepherd said:


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Both my kids have asthma.


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## Conservative65 (Dec 28, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


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In general, I find that those who think it's their place to limit, dictate, and decide for other don't like it when someone does it to them. They claim they are for choice and freedom yet let someone want to make a choice they don't  like and suddenly those concepts no longer exist or they find a reason why a person shouldn't get a choice or have freedom of that particular item.

A good example is the pro abortion, or self proclaimed pro choice, crowd.  They demand a woman be given the choice of what to do with her body.  Fine, let me have 100% of the choice.  All I ask is when she can't afford the results, I get a 100% choice of saying no to funding it for her.


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## Darkwind (Dec 28, 2014)

Jackinthebox said:


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Healthcare, if not the most regulated, is one of the top 3 regulated industries in the world.  Healthcare does not suffer from a dearth of regulation.


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## 80zephyr (Dec 28, 2014)

MikeK said:


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So then, what happens when the breadwinner is the one that gets sick, and, since he is to sick to work, can't pay the mortgage and other bills?

Do you also support an income while you are sick? I mean, its not fair if you lose your house when you are sick, is it? 

Mark


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## Ame®icano (Dec 28, 2014)

80zephyr said:


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First, don't buy something you can't really afford. Second, if you do, have a plan B such as second income, life insurance etc.


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## 80zephyr (Dec 28, 2014)

Ame®icano said:


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I doubt most breadwinners can afford to be off work for any length of time. Regardless of any plan.

Mark


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## dadsgm (Dec 28, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


> Just like water, food, shelter, and clothing, proper health care is a necessity. But, because it is a necessity, it has become a racket, a scam, a con, and legalized theft. Those in the medical and health care profession know that people can't set their own bones, stitch themselves up, remove kidney stones, and perform their own organ transplants. We all need those in the health care profession, there's no other choice. When people have no choice, it opens the doors for those that see easy money and a means to take unfair advantage of the situation.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/12/18/health/cost-of-health-care-poll.html?ref=health
> •A bill of over *$40,000* for the 20 minutes it took a doctor to stitch a cut.
> ...


 Those are the prices you get when the Government and Insurance Companies are involved.  Remove them especially the government and watch prices begin to level of at what the market will pay.


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 28, 2014)

dadsgm said:


> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> > Just like water, food, shelter, and clothing, proper health care is a necessity. But, because it is a necessity, it has become a racket, a scam, a con, and legalized theft. Those in the medical and health care profession know that people can't set their own bones, stitch themselves up, remove kidney stones, and perform their own organ transplants. We all need those in the health care profession, there's no other choice. When people have no choice, it opens the doors for those that see easy money and a means to take unfair advantage of the situation.
> ...


And don't forget everyone else in the medical profession. They all have a hand in it.


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## boedicca (Dec 28, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


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Scuze me.  But INSURANCE is not part of the Health Care Profession.


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 28, 2014)

boedicca said:


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Well, if health insurance is not a apart of the health care industry, I certainly don't know what is. So, even though medical bills are processed through health insurance companies, they're not a part of the health care industry? Gee, I certainly never heard of that before. Exactly how are they not a part of the health care industry?


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## dblack (Dec 28, 2014)

dadsgm said:


> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> > Just like water, food, shelter, and clothing, proper health care is a necessity. But, because it is a necessity, it has become a racket, a scam, a con, and legalized theft. Those in the medical and health care profession know that people can't set their own bones, stitch themselves up, remove kidney stones, and perform their own organ transplants. We all need those in the health care profession, there's no other choice. When people have no choice, it opens the doors for those that see easy money and a means to take unfair advantage of the situation.
> ...



Exactly.


boedicca said:


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A worthwhile point to make, but our abuse of insurance is at the heart of our dysfunctional health care market. Of course, all that was needed to fix that was nothing. It was changing already, as people were beginning to realize that insurance as a financing mechanism is a rip-off - and we we're bailing. That's why the insurance industry finally "acquiesced" to federal regulation. They saw that their gig was up an figured they could use government to mandate themselves perpetual customers. Apparently, they were right.


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## Ame®icano (Dec 28, 2014)

80zephyr said:


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Why not? If someone is able to start the family and have kids, then should be able to support them.


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## dblack (Dec 28, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


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They same way they're not part of the car care industry. You don't see the distinction?


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 28, 2014)

dblack said:


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Car care industry? What? Health care insurance ( medical insurance ) is a part of the health care industry. Are you saying that doctors, hospitals, labs, clinics, etc. do not bill through insurance companies? If they are not a part of the health care industry, why are we paying for health insurance? Please explain. And, how did cars get into this conversation?


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## boedicca (Dec 28, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


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Insurance is INSURANCE, and merely a way to pay for health care via a third party at a higher than market rate (because there has to be some way for them to profit).

It's quite possible to acquire health care without any insurance whatsoever.  Most people would actually be better off paying cash for basic care and then paying a small premium for a catastrophic care policy.   Mixing "prepaid health services" with real insurance is one of the reasons we have the mess we do today.


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## dblack (Dec 28, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


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Well, would you consider auto insurance to be "part of automobile industry"?

Health insurance isn't the only way, or even a good way, to pay for health care. It's that unquestioned assumption that's leading us into so much bad policy.


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 28, 2014)

boedicca said:


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Sure, I agree, insurance is insurance, nothing mysterious or new about that. But, I fail to see how anyone can leave health insurance out of the health care industry. They play a major role in the health care industry. They determine what the doctors will get paid, and what you'll pay that they don't pay. That's why we have co-pays, deductibles, and premiums. Ask any doctor if they consider health care insurance as a part of the industry. I honestly don't follow your reasoning on this. Why do we even call it health care insurance if it has nothing to do with health care? Why don't we call it rainy day insurance? Or, any other descriptive?


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## boedicca (Dec 28, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


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Have you ever stopped to consider why Insurance Companies determine what the price of your annual check up instead of that transaction being decided by you and your doctor?


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 28, 2014)

dblack said:


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Sure. Most states require drivers to have auto insurance. It's all part of the automotive industry. They don't call it automotive insurance because they're insuring your computer or TV.


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## dblack (Dec 28, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


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It's such an important distinction because of what I said in the earlier post. Insurance isn't the only way to pay for health care. When comes to routine doctor visits and moderate illnesses, it's a spectacularly bad way.


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## boedicca (Dec 28, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


> dblack said:
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Oh for Pity's Sake.  Just because Big Government Cronies lobby the government to pass laws and regulations so that they can rent seek off of the public doesn't mean that is a natural part of a properly functioning market.  Jeebus F-Crisco - learn something about history and economics.


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 28, 2014)

boedicca said:


> Sonny Clark said:
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Well, you're getting off topic now. We are not talking about why insurance companies charge what they charge. Charges are another conversation. The conversation is whether or not health care insurance is a part of the health care industry, and not what they charge or pay for certain items. I'm saying that health care insurance is very much a part of the health care industry, and you're say that they're not. I'll stick by my believe that health care insurance is very much a part of the health care industry.


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## boedicca (Dec 28, 2014)

dblack said:


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I just loved how the Feds made it impossible to use Flexible Health Spending Account to pay for over the counter medications.  This meant that middle class parents who wanted to use Their Own Money to pay for cold medicine for their kids had to go to the doctor and get a prescription for the over the counter cold medicine.

How on earth that reduces heatlh care costs eludes me.  Perhaps  Sonny Clabberhead can 'splain it.


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## dblack (Dec 28, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


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You can 'consider' it whatever you want. But insurance is a dumb model for financing regular expenses, of any sort. Your conflation of the two is dangerous because it leads to the idiotic assumption that regulating the insurance industry will fix the broken health care market. When, in fact, that's exactly what created most of the problems in the first place.


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 28, 2014)

dblack said:


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Well, of course it's not the only way to pay for a medical related bill. That's just common sense. And, I have never ever said otherwise, nor implied otherwise. Sure, if one has enough money, they can pay cash, or pay in installments. And, some people do. I have never said anything about health care insurance being the only means to pay for health care. How did that even get into this conversation?


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## dblack (Dec 28, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


> Well, of course it's not the only way to pay for a medical related bill. That's just common sense. And, I have never ever said otherwise, nor implied otherwise. Sure, if one has enough money, they can pay cash, or pay in installments. And, some people do. I have never said anything about health care insurance being the only means to pay for health care. How did that even get into this conversation?



I'll show you how. Just answer this question: What do you think should be done about the health care problem?


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 28, 2014)

boedicca said:


> dblack said:
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Sure, the whole health care industry is a racket, a scam, and nothing more than a money machine. Everyone knows that. That's common knowledge and understood. And, why start the childish silly remarks? Can't you discuss issues in an a civil and adult manner? I'm not Sonny Clabberhead. Try to be civil and mature, please. there's no need to get childish and start school yard talk.


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 28, 2014)

dblack said:


> Sonny Clark said:
> 
> 
> > Well, of course it's not the only way to pay for a medical related bill. That's just common sense. And, I have never ever said otherwise, nor implied otherwise. Sure, if one has enough money, they can pay cash, or pay in installments. And, some people do. I have never said anything about health care insurance being the only means to pay for health care. How did that even get into this conversation?
> ...


Health care problems, or do you mean health care insurance problems? Please narrow that question down for me. Health care problems could be anything from cancer to open heart surgery.


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 28, 2014)

dblack said:


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FYI - I have never ever said anything about regulating insurance companies. Where did you get that from? I have never ever said anything about financing regular expenses. Where did that come from? I have never ever said anything about regulating anything. Are you sure that you're addressing the right person here? You're obviously mixing me up with someone else. I have never ever said those things, nor implied them.


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## dblack (Dec 28, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


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Alright. So what is your position? What do you think the problem is? How would you fix it?


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 28, 2014)

dblack said:


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My position is exactly as I stated in the root post. The health care industry is a money machine, a legalized scam, a price gouging racket, and is pricing themselves way above what the average person can afford. It is actually bankrupting many people. The problem is one of over-charges, duplicate charges, exaggerated services, Medicare and Medicaid fraud and corruption, and price fixing. How would I fix it? I would ask Congress to make all in the health care profession to justify charges. And, if they can't legally do that, then at least they could expose the scam to the public by naming names, naming corporations, naming companies, naming hospitals, naming doctors, and naming pharmaceuticals. I would ask Congress to do whatever to shame those that are bankrupting this nation. Health care cost has gotten totally out of hand. No one can justify $1,800.00 a day for a tiny filthy hospital room. No one can justify charging $5.00 for a single aspirin. No one can justify $20.00 for a breakfast consisting of powdered eggs and wheat toast.

We have the highest cost and poorest health care among industrialized nations. That data is available online. Americans spend more on health care than almost any other country. The data is readily available online. Americans are going bankrupt and getting poorer because of the rising cost of proper health care. It's gotten so bad, that even Mr. Obama attempted to fix it. But, as we all know now, his attempt failed big time. I say make those in the health care industry justify cost and charges. Shame them if necessary. Bring attention to them by exposing them publicly.


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## dblack (Dec 28, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


> My position is exactly as I stated in the root post.


So far you've just been complaining about greed.


> The health care industry is a money machine, a legalized scam, a price gouging racket, and is pricing themselves way above what the average person can afford. It is actually bankrupting many people. The problem is one of over-charges, duplicate charges, exaggerated services, Medicare and Medicaid fraud and corruption, and price fixing.



I don't think doctors, or the insurance companies, or the pharmaceutical companies are any more greedy than any of the rest of us. We've just passed a lot of stupid laws that let them manipulate their markets. The same thing would happen in any market facing the idiocy we apply to health care.



> How would I fix it? I would ask Congress to make all in the health care profession to justify charges. And, if they can't legally do that, then at least they could expose the scam to the public by naming names, naming corporations, naming companies, naming hospitals, naming doctors, and naming pharmaceuticals. I would ask Congress to do whatever to shame those that are bankrupting this nation. Health care cost has gotten totally out of hand. No one can justify $1,800.00 a day for a tiny filthy hospital room. No one can justify charging $5.00 for a single aspirin. No one can justify $20.00 for a breakfast consisting of powdered eggs and wheat toast.
> 
> We have the highest cost and poorest health care among industrialized nations. That data is available online. Americans spend more on health care than almost any other country. The data is readily available online. Americans are going bankrupt and getting poorer because of the rising cost of proper health care. It's gotten so bad, that even Mr. Obama attempted to fix it. But, as we all know now, his attempt failed big time. I say make those in the health care industry justify cost and charges. Shame them if necessary. Bring attention to them by exposing them publicly.



Well, shaming them won't do squat. That leaves government price controls. How would you enforce them? How would you punish people who pay their doctors too much?


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 28, 2014)

dblack said:


> Sonny Clark said:
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> > My position is exactly as I stated in the root post.
> ...


Well, no one likes bad publicity, nor do they like negative headlines. It might not work, but at least it would expose them for what they really are. It might not do any good, but at least I would be in favor of trying it. I don't believe that government price control is the answer either. First, it would be almost impossible to figure out a fair price considering the zillions of variables that would come into play. Secondly, price control would only encourage them to find a way around it by breaking down blanket charges into itemized charges. There are ways around price controls. And, I would never punish the people. Why would I? The people are the ones being price gouged. It would be silly to punish patients, just ridiculous. Besides, who would over pay? People can't afford proper health care as it is, so why would anyone in their right mind over pay?


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## dblack (Dec 28, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


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So what would you do? If you don't want price controls, and shaming them didn't work (the concept seems kind of laughable, to be honest), what's left?


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 28, 2014)

dblack said:


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Ask Congress to make them justify cost and charges. Just ask them to show justification, the same as they did on public TV with the oil industry when gasoline went to over $4.00 a gallon several years ago. The execs had to appear before Congress and explain the prices of gasoline. It was done through a live feed for all to see. I watched it and could tell they didn't have answers, they just did a lot of double talk and danced around the questions being asked. The exec that spoke for Exxon said that she had an obligation to the stock holders to make as much money for them as she could. She basically told them to take and like it, there's was nothing they could do about it. Exxon is very lucky that they are one of the main suppliers, or people listening to her words would have done anything to buy non-Exxon related products.


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## dblack (Dec 28, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


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Well, that's just pathetic.


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 28, 2014)

dblack said:


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How so? Care to explain? What would you do? Have a better idea?


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## dblack (Dec 28, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


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Because it would be completely ineffectual.

If had my druthers, I'd deregulate the whole mess. Recognizing that as not currently politically viable, at the federal level, I'd do as little as possible. Maybe tax insurance benefits as income and use the commerce clause to overrule state interference with free trade related to health care and insurance sales.


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## Darkwind (Dec 29, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


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They don't bill through them, they bill TO them.

The same way an auto repair shop bills the insurance of the auto.  They do not BILL through the insurance, they bill TO it.

In other words, the insurance is OUTSIDE the healthcare complex.


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 29, 2014)

dblack said:


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Well, that's just pathetic


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 29, 2014)

Darkwind said:


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Health care insurance is very much INSIDE the industry. My guess is that 95% plus of health care billing goes through insurance companies. That hardly puts them outside the health care industry.


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## dblack (Dec 29, 2014)

Sonny Clark said:


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LOL.... fair enough.

But my view is that the best thing government can do to help is to remove the impediments they've injected into the health care market via ill-considered regulation. And if states want to provide health care for their citizens, it should be done in the way we've handled public education. This keeps things localized and less of a centralized target for manipulation.

That said, I'm not one to say that the entire problem is one of over-regulation. A large part of the solution is for health care consumers to wise up, and recognize that insurance isn't a way to get out of paying for health care, that it actually makes health care cost a lot more in the long run. We need to come to the understanding that the we're better off with the _*least*_ amount of insurance we can get by on.

What's sad is that this realization was beginning to gain traction, especially with the younger generations. I'm convinced that's why the health insurance industry joined forces with Congress to push for the mandate.


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## Sonny Clark (Dec 29, 2014)

dblack said:


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Yes, Congress is well connect to and paid by the health care industry. Many Lobbyists funnel untold $millions into the hands of members of Congress. Yes, votes are bought on the floors of Congress. Yes, Congress is on the take from many industries. Yes, Congress is corrupt and for sale. But, In my opinion, those in the health care profession, those that actually provide the medical treatments and services, are pushing prices to astronomical heights via price gouging. No one forces doctors to charge $300.00 for a 5 minute office visit that consist of nothing more than conversation. No one forces hospitals to charge $1,800.00 and upwards per day for a tiny filthy room. No one forces hospitals to charge $5.00 per aspirin when a bottle of 100 cost less than $2.00 at any drug store in America.

Those in the health care industry know that we need their services. They know that we can not operate on ourselves. They know that we can't buy our own MRI machine and use it when needed. They know that we can't do our own blood work and analysis. We are at their mercy. And, knowing how much we need them and depend on them, they take full advantage of the situation. Pharmaceuticals are making an astronomical profit off prescription medication. My main point is that price gouging by those in the health care industry is pricing citizens out of the market and causing many to file bankruptcy to keep from losing their homes and life savings. And, this is happening to those with health care insurance also. People are being milked dry by those that charge outrageous and insane fees for such simple things as office visits and lab tests. Those in the health care industry should be shamed on national TV every single day. Newspapers should run full page stories listing names of doctors and hospitals that engage in price gouging. The internet should be flooded with names and facilities that legally rob the public.

The president and members of Congress should call them before a panel, ask them to explain their justification for charging $5.00 for an aspirin, and allow the public to hear their answer. We should shame them into realizing the economic damage their doing to this nation and her citizens. Some spend more on health care than on a mortgage. I spend more each month on premiums than I do on my truck payment ( Ford F-150 ). In addition, I have co-pays, deductibles, and some prescription cost. And, that's with Cigna as my major medical, and Medicare as secondary coverage. And many people are not financially able to have the coverage that I am blessed with. Many have deductibles that range well above $5,000 and $6,000, plus additional co-pays that must be met. Some elderly are paying hundreds of dollars for blood pressure pills each month, in addition to what Medicare and Medicaid pays.

The bottom line is we can't continue to labor at a job just to stay healthy. If prices continue to rise at the present rate, a lot of working folks will be working just to pay premiums, deductibles, and co-pays for themselves and their family. At some point, the health care industry is going to price the average citizen completely out of the market. I do not have a crystal ball, but the present trend leads to financial ruin for many Americans.


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## dblack (Dec 29, 2014)

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The problem is that no one is demanding lower prices. I don't think most people with health insurance even think about how much their doctor charges. If we were paying for health care out of pocket, a doctor's rates would be one of the first things we'd ask about. But we're not. So we don't. And honestly, if you're insured, you pretty much _always_ have incentive go to with the more expensive option.

I don't think doctors are any greedier than anyone else. But with insured customers they have the luxury of no demand for lower prices. Any professional granted such a perk would take advantage of it to some extent.



> The president and members of Congress should call them before a panel, ask them to explain their justification for charging $5.00 for an aspirin, and allow the public to hear their answer.



This is more or less what insurance companies are trying to do. That's why they refuse to cover many kinds of treatments, or cut back on the amounts they'll cover for different treatmenst. But every time they do, customers (understandably) howl, and turn to their state regulators to mandate this or that coverage. If anything, we should shame ourselves for having such childish expectations. We can't demand the very best health care and expect to get it on the cheap.



> The bottom line is we can't continue to labor at a job just to stay healthy. If prices continue to rise at the present rate, a lot of working folks will be working just to pay premiums, deductibles, and co-pays for themselves and their family. At some point, the health care industry is going to price the average citizen completely out of the market. I do not have a crystal ball, but the present trend leads to financial ruin for many Americans.



Not unless they're extremely stubborn or stupid. Before this happens, most people will realize insurance just isn't a good deal, and that they're really better off paying cash for their health care and bargaining with doctors for cheaper rates.


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