# The shit hits the fan...



## Xenophon

*Defiant Tehran protesters battle police*

TEHRAN, Iran  Thousands of protesters defied Iran's highest authority Saturday and marched on waiting security forces that fought back with baton charges, tear gas and water cannons as the crisis over disputed elections lurched into volatile new ground.

*In a separate incident, a state-run television channel reported that a suicide bombing at the shrine of the Islamic Revolution leader Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini killed at least two people and wounded eight. The report could be not independently evaluated due to government restrictions on journalists.*

If proven true, the reports could enrage conservatives and bring strains among backers of opposition leader Mir Hossein Mousavi. Another state channel broadcast images of broken glass but no other damage or casualties, and showed a witness saying three people had been wounded.

Full story here


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## Annie

There's a whole bunch of opinion and news in the Iran forum.


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## Xenophon

This story is bigger then a sub forum, this could be a pivital moment in history.


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## Annie

Xenophon said:


> This story is bigger then a sub forum, this could be a pivital moment in history.



Oh I agree wholeheartedly, perhaps a mod could move some?


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## strollingbones

all moments are,,,if we needed to free iraq why not iran?


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## Sunni Man

Xenophon said:


> This story is bigger then a sub forum, this could be a pivital moment in history.


Not really

The Iranian government will crack down on these malcontents, jail the criminal leaders, and that will be the end of the story.


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## Annie

strollingbones said:


> all moments are,,,if we needed to free iraq why not iran?



"We" are not freeing anyone. Declarations and resolutions of support are not means of meddling.


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## Xenophon

Sunni Man said:


> Xenophon said:
> 
> 
> 
> This story is bigger then a sub forum, this could be a pivital moment in history.
> 
> 
> 
> Not really
> 
> The Iranian government will crack down on these malcontents, jail the criminal leaders, and that will be the end of the story.
Click to expand...

Look at this:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sW3HVHGvgkE]YouTube - Tehran Unknown 20 June Tazahorat[/ame]

They have tried to crack down, the people are fighting back.

Its revolution now.


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## DiveCon

they are reporting "dozens killed" on FNC right now


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## Soaring

Sunni Man said:


> Xenophon said:
> 
> 
> 
> This story is bigger then a sub forum, this could be a pivital moment in history.
> 
> 
> 
> Not really
> 
> The Iranian government will crack down on these malcontents, jail the criminal leaders, and that will be the end of the story.
Click to expand...

 Maybe yea, and maybe nay.  These young Iranians are hungry for a democratic lifestyle like we have.  They listen to the same music as our kids do, they eat the same junk food as our kids do, etc.  This may be the time for these kids to take over the government of Iran.


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## Sunni Man

You people are borderline silly over the Iranian protesters.

In 1989 there were massive protests at Tiananmen Square in China.

It went on for a couple of weeks and involved huge numbers of Chineese citizens.

The news media intensely covered the story and experts predicted the fall of the communist Chineese government.

Wrong!!!

The protesters were violently stopped and the ring leaders arrested and given long prison sentences.

The incident faded into history and the Chinese government continued on with business as usual.  

The Iran situation will also follow this same scenario and become a non event


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## Lycurgus

They are pouring chemicals from choppers onto the crowds and arresting the wounded and taking them from the hospitals. 

The slaughter has begun, the true face of the Iranian government is on world display.


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## Xenophon

But you are wrong, China changed radically after that.


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## Lycurgus

Sunni Man said:


> You people are borderline silly over the Iranian protesters.
> 
> In 1989 there were massive protests at Tiananmen Square in China.
> 
> It went on for a couple of weeks and involved huge numbers of Chineese citizens.
> 
> The news media intensely covered the story and experts predicted the fall of the communist Chineese government.
> 
> Wrong!!!
> 
> The protesters were violently stopped and the ring leaders arrested and given long prison sentences.
> 
> The incident faded into history and the Chinese government continued on with business as usual.
> 
> The Iran situation will also follow this same scenario and become a non event




You can only hope, right Sunni you sick bastard. 

You may be right, but keep this in mind, Iran is not China! Not even close to that level of world power.


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## Sunni Man

DiveCon said:


> they are reporting "dozens killed" on FNC right now



The protesters have resorted to criminal tactics and terrorist activity.

Of course the police will resort to deadly force.


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## Xenophon

Stop trolling the thread with docheness sunni.


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## Xenophon

Death toll now reported at 40, 200 hurt and growing rapidly.


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## Sunni Man

Xenophon said:


> Stop trolling the thread with docheness sunni.



Why?

Because the truth too much for you to handle???


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## Annie

Lycurgus said:


> They are pouring chemicals from choppers onto the crowds and arresting the wounded and taking them from the hospitals.
> 
> The slaughter has begun, the true face of the Iranian government is on world display.



They've been doing the chemicals all day, at least since 8:30 am CST. Seems to be a mix of tear gas and water. 

They are marking doors of protesters, waiting for them to return-more shades of fascism. Difference is, messages are out and people are using solvents to get rid of the markings. Imagine if the Warsaw ghetto had had cell phone cameras and twitter/you tube? Other countries could not have ignored the 'stories.'


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## DiveCon

Xenophon said:


> Stop trolling the thread with docheness sunni.


he cant help what he is


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## Xenophon

Sunni Man said:


> Xenophon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Stop trolling the thread with docheness sunni.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why?
> 
> Because the truth too much for you to handle???
Click to expand...

When you actually say some, let us know.


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## Bfgrn

Irony... 

Progressives in Iran take to the streets to protest oppression and the status quo...conservatives in Iran support the authoritarian regime and chant "death to America"...

Conservatives in America defend progressives right to protest in Iran...just not in America...then they're called lawless dissidents and UN American ...

Conservatism is based on latitude, longitude and date of birth.
*Bfgrn*


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## Sunni Man

Bfgrn said:


> Irony...
> 
> Progressives in Iran take to the streets to protest oppression and the status quo...conservatives in Iran support the authoritarian regime and chant "death to America"...
> 
> Conservatives in America defend progressives right to protest in Iran...just not in America...then they're called lawless dissidents and UN American ...
> 
> Conservatism is based on latitude, longitude and date of birth.
> *Bfgrn*


Good point


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## DiveCon

Bfgrn said:


> Irony...
> 
> Progressives in Iran take to the streets to protest oppression and the status quo...conservatives in Iran support the authoritarian regime and chant "death to America"...
> 
> Conservatives in America defend progressives right to protest in Iran...just not in America...then they're called lawless dissidents and UN American ...
> 
> Conservatism is based on latitude, longitude and date of birth.
> *Bfgrn*


no big surprise, you get it WRONG once again


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## Gunny

Sunni Man said:


> Xenophon said:
> 
> 
> 
> This story is bigger then a sub forum, this could be a pivital moment in history.
> 
> 
> 
> Not really
> 
> The Iranian government will crack down on these malcontents, jail the criminal leaders, and that will be the end of the story.
Click to expand...


I hate to agree with Captain Moron here, but he's probably right.  The Chinese allowed just so much and then there was Tienamen Square.  

The Islamofascists used force to gain power, and they will use force to keep it.

People are talking war with Iran, but Americans REALLY want to face down people who have the balls to protest and defy their own government when we don't?  These are guys that attacked conventional Iraqi forces with pitchforks.  

Wake up.


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## Bfgrn

DiveCon said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Irony...
> 
> Progressives in Iran take to the streets to protest oppression and the status quo...conservatives in Iran support the authoritarian regime and chant "death to America"...
> 
> Conservatives in America defend progressives right to protest in Iran...just not in America...then they're called lawless dissidents and UN American ...
> 
> Conservatism is based on latitude, longitude and date of birth.
> *Bfgrn*
> 
> 
> 
> no big surprise, you get it WRONG once again
Click to expand...


Sorry pea brain, but I'm dead on...you're no match for me...never have been, never will be..you're just a spectator, not a participant...a heckler from the peanut gallery...


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## Annie

Bfgrn said:


> Irony...
> 
> Progressives in Iran take to the streets to protest oppression and the status quo...conservatives in Iran support the authoritarian regime and chant "death to America"...
> 
> Conservatives in America defend progressives right to protest in Iran...just not in America...then they're called lawless dissidents and UN American ...
> 
> Conservatism is based on latitude, longitude and date of birth.
> *Bfgrn*



Really?

http://www.usmessageboard.com/curre...hould-the-us-approach-iran-2.html#post1288948


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## DiveCon

Annie said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Irony...
> 
> Progressives in Iran take to the streets to protest oppression and the status quo...conservatives in Iran support the authoritarian regime and chant "death to America"...
> 
> Conservatives in America defend progressives right to protest in Iran...just not in America...then they're called lawless dissidents and UN American ...
> 
> Conservatism is based on latitude, longitude and date of birth.
> *Bfgrn*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really?
> 
> http://www.usmessageboard.com/curre...hould-the-us-approach-iran-2.html#post1288948
Click to expand...

hes a clueless moron


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## DiveCon

Bfgrn said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Irony...
> 
> Progressives in Iran take to the streets to protest oppression and the status quo...conservatives in Iran support the authoritarian regime and chant "death to America"...
> 
> Conservatives in America defend progressives right to protest in Iran...just not in America...then they're called lawless dissidents and UN American ...
> 
> Conservatism is based on latitude, longitude and date of birth.
> *Bfgrn*
> 
> 
> 
> no big surprise, you get it WRONG once again
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sorry pea brain, but I'm dead on...you're no match for me...never have been, never will be..you're just a spectator, not a participant...a heckler from the peanut gallery...
Click to expand...

only in your dreams, moron


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## Harry Dresden

Sunni Man said:


> Xenophon said:
> 
> 
> 
> This story is bigger then a sub forum, this could be a pivital moment in history.
> 
> 
> 
> Not really
> 
> The Iranian government will crack down on these malcontents, jail the criminal leaders, and that will be the end of the story.
Click to expand...


so people who dont want religion STRANGLING them are criminal malcontents, is that what is considered criminal in Iran Sunni?......


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## Harry Dresden

Sunni Man said:


> You people are borderline silly over the Iranian protesters.
> 
> In 1989 there were massive protests at Tiananmen Square in China.
> 
> It went on for a couple of weeks and involved huge numbers of Chineese citizens.
> 
> The news media intensely covered the story and experts predicted the fall of the communist Chineese government.
> 
> Wrong!!!
> 
> The protesters were violently stopped and the ring leaders arrested and given long prison sentences.
> 
> The incident faded into history and the Chinese government continued on with business as usual.
> 
> The Iran situation will also follow this same scenario and become a non event



yea and look at China today compared to then.....where in the middle east are you from Sunni?....


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## Gunny

Bfgrn said:


> Irony...
> 
> Progressives in Iran take to the streets to protest oppression and the status quo...conservatives in Iran support the authoritarian regime and chant "death to America"...
> 
> Conservatives in America defend progressives right to protest in Iran...just not in America...then they're called lawless dissidents and UN American ...
> 
> Conservatism is based on latitude, longitude and date of birth.
> *Bfgrn*



While progressives in the US try to destroy every ideal this country was founded upon.  DO try and not leave out the facts.

Remember, those you call conservatives believe in the foundations that built this nation.  The fact they don't want those foundations screwed with isn't wrong.  And those foundations are based on rebellion against our King.  

Progressives have no btrains, nor principles.  They exist solely to  defy and protest against the status quo, without rhyme nor reason.

So guess again.  

The Iranians that want basic democracy aren't the US versions of democracy.  If they were, they'd be fighting for the rights of perverts instead of the basic rights of human beings to not allow themselves to be ruled by morons.


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## Gunny

Bfgrn said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Irony...
> 
> Progressives in Iran take to the streets to protest oppression and the status quo...conservatives in Iran support the authoritarian regime and chant "death to America"...
> 
> Conservatives in America defend progressives right to protest in Iran...just not in America...then they're called lawless dissidents and UN American ...
> 
> Conservatism is based on latitude, longitude and date of birth.
> *Bfgrn*
> 
> 
> 
> no big surprise, you get it WRONG once again
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sorry pea brain, but I'm dead on...you're no match for me...never have been, never will be..you're just a spectator, not a participant...a heckler from the peanut gallery...
Click to expand...


You're not even close to missing "dead on."  Your argument is disingenuous at best.


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## DiveCon

Gunny said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Irony...
> 
> Progressives in Iran take to the streets to protest oppression and the status quo...conservatives in Iran support the authoritarian regime and chant "death to America"...
> 
> Conservatives in America defend progressives right to protest in Iran...just not in America...then they're called lawless dissidents and UN American ...
> 
> Conservatism is based on latitude, longitude and date of birth.
> *Bfgrn*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While progressives in the US try to destroy every ideal this country was founded upon.  DO try and not leave out the facts.
> 
> Remember, those you call conservatives believe in the foundations that built this nation.  The fact they don't want those foundations screwed with isn't wrong.  And those foundations are based on rebellion against our King.
> 
> Progressives have no btrains, nor principles.  They exist solely to  defy and protest against the status quo, without rhyme nor reason.
> 
> So guess again.
> 
> The Iranians that want basic democracy aren't the US versions of democracy.  If they were, they'd be fighting for the rights of perverts instead of the basic rights of human beings to not allow themselves to be ruled by morons.
Click to expand...

and that moron thinks he is superior to me

only in his dreams


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## RadiomanATL

Bfgrn said:


> Irony...
> 
> Progressives in Iran take to the streets to protest oppression and the status quo...conservatives in Iran support the authoritarian regime and chant "death to America"...
> 
> Conservatives in America defend progressives right to protest in Iran...just not in America...then they're called lawless dissidents and UN American ...
> 
> Conservatism is based on latitude, longitude and date of birth.
> *Bfgrn*



Ummm, no.

Conservatives try to stick closely to the founding principles of this country as expressed in the Constitution. One of those being free speech, the other being a limited federal government. 

No conservative wants to take away another American's right to free speech and protest. However it must be peaceful and in accordance with the law. As for being unamerican, it depends on the content and context of the protest. Not all protests are pro-American, not all are un-American.


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## Xenophon

Bfgrn said:


> Irony...
> 
> Progressives in Iran take to the streets to protest oppression and the status quo...


This alone is probaly the silliest part of a rediculous post.

'Progressives..' who yell 'god is great' and will happily stone gays and women are your version of 'progressives.'

You still haven't learned that the left doesn't own protesting, they aern't protesting the 'status quo' in Iran, they are protesting a dictatorship many have had enough of.

And unlike protests here, it will get a lot of them dead.

As for tolerance of protestors in the USA, 'progressives' here called protestors sex act names to mock and belittle them, and you have the gall to try and rip on conservatives? 

You are far worse then any con, both narrow minded and arrogant.


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## DiveCon

Xenophon said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Irony...
> 
> Progressives in Iran take to the streets to protest oppression and the status quo...
> 
> 
> 
> This alone is probaly the silliest part of a rediculous post.
> 
> 'Progressives..' who yell 'god is great' and will happily stone gays and women are your version of 'progressives.'
> 
> You still haven't learned that the left doesn't own protesting, they aern't protesting the 'status quo' in Iran, they are protesting a dictatorship many have had enough of.
> 
> And unlike protests here, it will get a lot of them dead.
> 
> As for tolerance of protestors in the USA, 'progressives' here called protestors sex act names to mock and belittle them, and you have the gall to try and rip on conservatives?
> 
> You are far worse then any con, both narrow minded and arrogant.
Click to expand...

if he wasnt so desperate to score a domestic poliitical point, he might have saved himself from falling into the dungpile and coming out smelling like SHIT


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## Missourian

Does Iran have an armed civilian population?  

An armed government doesn't fear an unarmed revolt.


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## RadiomanATL

Missourian said:


> Does Iran have an armed civilian population?
> 
> An armed government doesn't fear an unarmed revolt.



Well, as we've seen in recent years it's not that hard to improvise weapons that can still do significant harm.


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## asaratis

RadiomanATL said:


> Missourian said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does Iran have an armed civilian population?
> 
> An armed government doesn't fear an unarmed revolt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, as we've seen in recent years it's not that hard to improvise weapons that can still do significant harm.
Click to expand...

...as when the Mexicans sent the French army into chaotic disarray using some Indians and and a herd of cattle.

People that want freedom badly enough will attain it one way or another.


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## Bfgrn

Gunny said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Irony...
> 
> Progressives in Iran take to the streets to protest oppression and the status quo...conservatives in Iran support the authoritarian regime and chant "death to America"...
> 
> Conservatives in America defend progressives right to protest in Iran...just not in America...then they're called lawless dissidents and UN American ...
> 
> Conservatism is based on latitude, longitude and date of birth.
> *Bfgrn*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While progressives in the US try to destroy every ideal this country was founded upon.  DO try and not leave out the facts.
> 
> Remember, those you call conservatives believe in the foundations that built this nation.  The fact they don't want those foundations screwed with isn't wrong.  And those foundations are based on rebellion against our King.
> 
> Progressives have no btrains, nor principles.  They exist solely to  defy and protest against the status quo, without rhyme nor reason.
> 
> So guess again.
> 
> The Iranians that want basic democracy aren't the US versions of democracy.  If they were, they'd be fighting for the rights of perverts instead of the basic rights of human beings to not allow themselves to be ruled by morons.
Click to expand...


"facts" Gunny?

FACT: the "ideal" our country was founded upon is one simple progressive principle; "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." ...FREEDOM...

What the very core of freedom means Gunny is that YOU don't get to define MY life, liberty and my pursuit of happiness...just YOURS...

Your form of "ideals" is collectivism, conformity and compliance to YOUR definitions of how I should live...and unquestioning support for YOUR king...

America was founded BY progressives that rejected the "Divine right of Kings"... yet YOU defend as "divine", the right of YOUR new King George - Bush to invade a sovereign country and you call his murder of innocent men, women and children "freedom"... and any citizen that protests or doesn't support the divine right of King George is a lawless dissidents and UN American...

Maybe a REAL conservative can explain it to you...but I DOUBT you can comprehend it...

"Equality, rightly understood as our founding fathers understood it, leads to liberty and to the emancipation of creative differences; wrongly understood, as it has been so tragically in our time, it leads first to conformity and then to despotism." 
*Barry Goldwater (R)  Late Senator & Father of the Conservative movement*

Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live; it is asking others to live as one wishes to live.
*Oscar Wilde*


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## William Joyce

Wonder what role Israel and the U.S. have in fomenting the opposition?  Our CIA has been behind a lot of aborted "revolutions" that just sent thousands to their deaths and didn't do a thing to crack the ruling power.


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## Sunni Man

William Joyce said:


> Wonder what role Israel and the U.S. have in fomenting the opposition?  Our CIA has been behind a lot of aborted "revolutions" that just sent thousands to their deaths and didn't do a thing to crack the ruling power.


There is NO doubt in my mind that Israel and the CIA are organizing and funding the leadership of the anti-government protests.


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## DiveCon

Sunni Man said:


> William Joyce said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wonder what role Israel and the U.S. have in fomenting the opposition? Our CIA has been behind a lot of aborted "revolutions" that just sent thousands to their deaths and didn't do a thing to crack the ruling power.
> 
> 
> 
> There is NO doubt in my mind that Israel and the CIA are organizing and funding the leadership of the anti-government protests.
Click to expand...

the leader of the opposition was hand picked to run by the supreme leader

yeah, he's an American Pawn


----------



## Harry Dresden

Sunni Man said:


> William Joyce said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wonder what role Israel and the U.S. have in fomenting the opposition?  Our CIA has been behind a lot of aborted "revolutions" that just sent thousands to their deaths and didn't do a thing to crack the ruling power.
> 
> 
> 
> There is NO doubt in my mind that Israel and the CIA are organizing and funding the leadership of the anti-government protests.
Click to expand...


you havent answered my question Sunni....were in the middle east are you from?.....just curious...


----------



## DiveCon

Harry Dresden said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> William Joyce said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wonder what role Israel and the U.S. have in fomenting the opposition?  Our CIA has been behind a lot of aborted "revolutions" that just sent thousands to their deaths and didn't do a thing to crack the ruling power.
> 
> 
> 
> There is NO doubt in my mind that Israel and the CIA are organizing and funding the leadership of the anti-government protests.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> you havent answered my question Sunni....were in the middle east are you from?.....just curious...
Click to expand...

Boston


----------



## Sunni Man

Harry Dresden said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> William Joyce said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wonder what role Israel and the U.S. have in fomenting the opposition?  Our CIA has been behind a lot of aborted "revolutions" that just sent thousands to their deaths and didn't do a thing to crack the ruling power.
> 
> 
> 
> There is NO doubt in my mind that Israel and the CIA are organizing and funding the leadership of the anti-government protests.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> you havent answered my question Sunni....were in the middle east are you from?.....just curious...
Click to expand...

I am an American born and raised


----------



## Harry Dresden

DiveCon said:


> Harry Dresden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is NO doubt in my mind that Israel and the CIA are organizing and funding the leadership of the anti-government protests.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you havent answered my question Sunni....were in the middle east are you from?.....just curious...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Boston
Click to expand...


thanx Sunni....


----------



## Harry Dresden

Sunni Man said:


> Harry Dresden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is NO doubt in my mind that Israel and the CIA are organizing and funding the leadership of the anti-government protests.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you havent answered my question Sunni....were in the middle east are you from?.....just curious...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I am an American born and raised
Click to expand...


ok dude thanx for answering....


----------



## Bfgrn

Xenophon said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Irony...
> 
> Progressives in Iran take to the streets to protest oppression and the status quo...
> 
> 
> 
> This alone is probaly the silliest part of a rediculous post.
> 
> 'Progressives..' who yell 'god is great' and will happily stone gays and women are your version of 'progressives.'
> 
> You still haven't learned that the left doesn't own protesting, they aern't protesting the 'status quo' in Iran, they are protesting a dictatorship many have had enough of.
> 
> And unlike protests here, it will get a lot of them dead.
> 
> As for tolerance of protestors in the USA, 'progressives' here called protestors sex act names to mock and belittle them, and you have the gall to try and rip on conservatives?
> 
> You are far worse then any con, both narrow minded and arrogant.
Click to expand...


Xenophon (the Greek mercenary who was the first neocon)


You said: 'Progressives..' who yell 'god is great' and will happily stone gays and women are your version of 'progressives.'

No, those ' who yell 'god is great' and will happily stone gays and women are the conservatives who support the theocratic Islamic State, the Supreme Leader of Iran Ali Khamenei and his choice for president; conservative Mahmoud Ahmadinejad 

I said: "Progressives in Iran take to the streets to protest oppression and the status quo..."

You said: "they aern't protesting the 'status quo' in Iran, they are protesting a dictatorship many have had enough of.

Oppression - the exercise of authority or power in a burdensome, cruel, or unjust manner.
synonym - dictatorship

Status quo - The existing condition or state of affairs.


----------



## DiveCon

Bfgrn said:


> Xenophon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Irony...
> 
> Progressives in Iran take to the streets to protest oppression and the status quo...
> 
> 
> 
> This alone is probaly the silliest part of a rediculous post.
> 
> 'Progressives..' who yell 'god is great' and will happily stone gays and women are your version of 'progressives.'
> 
> You still haven't learned that the left doesn't own protesting, they aern't protesting the 'status quo' in Iran, they are protesting a dictatorship many have had enough of.
> 
> And unlike protests here, it will get a lot of them dead.
> 
> As for tolerance of protestors in the USA, 'progressives' here called protestors sex act names to mock and belittle them, and you have the gall to try and rip on conservatives?
> 
> You are far worse then any con, both narrow minded and arrogant.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Xenophon (the Greek mercenary who was the first neocon)
> 
> 
> You said: 'Progressives..' who yell 'god is great' and will happily stone gays and women are your version of 'progressives.'
> 
> No, those ' who yell 'god is great' and will happily stone gays and women are the conservatives who support the theocratic Islamic State, the Supreme Leader of Iran Ali Khamenei and his choice for president; conservative Mahmoud Ahmadinejad
> 
> I said: "Progressives in Iran take to the streets to protest oppression and the status quo..."
> 
> You said: "they aern't protesting the 'status quo' in Iran, they are protesting a dictatorship many have had enough of.
> 
> Oppression - the exercise of authority or power in a burdensome, cruel, or unjust manner.
> synonym - dictatorship
> 
> Status quo - The existing condition or state of affairs.
Click to expand...

i guess you havent heard many of the protestors


----------



## garyd

It will of course come down to what percentage of the cops act more like the Red Army in russia as compared to the percentage that stays with the regime.  History Sunni you douche is as repleat with successful uprisings as with failed ones going back hundreds of years and modern technology helps the oppressed as more than it does the oppressors.

Too bad the fourteenth century has come and gone eh Sunni.

By the way if you are Sunni, why in heavens name do you care what happens to a bunch of Shi'a thugs?


----------



## DiveCon

garyd said:


> It will of course come down to what percentage of the cops act more like the Red Army in russia as compared to the percentage that stays with the regime.  History Sunni you douche is as repleat with successful uprisings as with failed ones going back hundreds of years and modern technology helps the oppressed as more than it does the oppressors.
> 
> Too bad the fourteenth century has come and gone eh Sunni.
> 
> By the way if you are Sunni, why in heavens name do you care what happens to a bunch of Shi'a thugs?


there are reports of some police looking the other way and some begging the protesters to just go home because they don't want to beat anyone


----------



## Annie

garyd said:


> It will of course come down to what percentage of the cops act more like the Red Army in russia as compared to the percentage that stays with the regime.  History Sunni you douche is as repleat with successful uprisings as with failed ones going back hundreds of years and modern technology helps the oppressed as more than it does the oppressors.
> 
> Too bad the fourteenth century has come and gone eh sunni.



Yep, it will come down to police, army, militia and their reactions and whether or not they'll get 'tougher'. Some good news coming through this evening via Twitter, there's links at both:

Iran Updates (VIDEO): Live-Blogging The Uprising



> 7:33 PM ET -- Top clerical group Assembly of Experts supports Khamenei. (Update see Saturday 10:05 PM entry.) If accurate, this statement reported by the Tehran Times -- by the one council with the authority to unseat the Supreme Leader -- appears to deal a significant blow to the idea that the clerical establishment would help bring down Khamenei.
> 
> In a statement issued on Saturday the Assembly of Experts expressed its "strong support" for the Supreme Leader's statements on the presidential elections on Friday.
> 
> The 86-member assembly stated in the statement that it is hoped that the nation would realize the current condition and by sticking to the Leader's guidelines preserve their patience and manifest their unity.
> 
> The Qom Seminary Teachers Society also issued a statement on Saturday declaring strong support for the guidelines of the Supreme Leader.​





> 10:05 PM ET -- More on the Assembly of Experts statement. Earlier today, the Tehran Times posted an article claiming that the powerful clerical group, the Assembly of Experts, had on Saturday "expressed its 'strong support' for the Supreme Leader's statements on the presidential elections on Friday." It would have been a major blow to reformists' efforts to win the support of many senior clerics.
> 
> But as it turns out, it's not true. Reader Ali writes in:
> 
> I just wanted to point out that the letter of support written by assembly of experts in support of Khamenei's sermon is only signed by the deputy leader of the assembly, who is a former head of the judiciary and a staunch supporter of ahmadinejad, as well as a rival of Rafsanjani for the assembly's leadership election. He is the only one signing the letter and the government sponsored news media are reporting it as a letter from the full assembly.​And reader Majid provides more details:
> 
> Once again thanks for the great job in reporting the events. Just a comment about your 7:33pm item about the Assembly of Experts. The statement is not by the Assembly of Experts, but by Mohammad Yazdi, the head of the "Dabirkhane" of the Assembly of Experts. His statement doesn't carry much weight and definitely not a blow to the freedom movement. After all, there are certainly many Khamene'i loyalists in the Assembly of Experts and such comments could be expected from these cowards.​


----------



## garyd

The real culprits in most of the beatings aren't the cops but the Basjilis, ignorant slugs who lap up the party line in an even more egregious fashion than even Bobo snorts up all the crap coming out of either end of Obama.


----------



## Lycurgus

Sunni Man said:


> Harry Dresden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is NO doubt in my mind that Israel and the CIA are organizing and funding the leadership of the anti-government protests.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you havent answered my question Sunni....were in the middle east are you from?.....just curious...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I am an American born and raised
Click to expand...



 ...........


----------



## Xenophon

Bfgrn said:


> Xenophon (the Greek mercenary who was the first neocon)


He was not a 'neocon' you imbecile.

'Neocons' are LIBERALS who became hard on foreign policy, Xenophon was a Spartan soldier.

Didn't you learn from the past not to post spurilous history around here?




> No, those ' who yell 'god is great' and will happily stone gays and women are the conservatives who support the theocratic Islamic State, the Supreme Leader of Iran Ali Khamenei and his choice for president; conservative Mahmoud Ahmadinejad


Wrong again simpleton, BOTH men were selected by the 'supreme leader' to run, they are the same side of the same coin.




> You said: "they aern't protesting the 'status quo' in Iran, they are protesting a dictatorship many have had enough of.[/COLOR]
> 
> Oppression - the exercise of authority or power in a burdensome, cruel, or unjust manner.
> synonym - dictatorship


Which has nothing to do with 'status quo' mon simpleton.


----------



## DiveCon

Xenophon said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Xenophon (the Greek mercenary who was the first neocon)
> 
> 
> 
> He was not a 'neocon' you imbecile.
> 
> 'Neocons' are LIBERALS who became hard on foreign policy, Xenophon was a Spartan soldier.
> 
> Didn't you learn from the past not to post spurilous history around here?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, those ' who yell 'god is great' and will happily stone gays and women are the conservatives who support the theocratic Islamic State, the Supreme Leader of Iran Ali Khamenei and his choice for president; conservative Mahmoud Ahmadinejad
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wrong again simpleton, BOTH men were selected by the 'supreme leader' to run, they are the same side of the same coin.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You said: "they aern't protesting the 'status quo' in Iran, they are protesting a dictatorship many have had enough of.[/color]
> 
> Oppression - the exercise of authority or power in a burdensome, cruel, or unjust manner.
> synonym - dictatorship
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Which has nothing to do with 'status quo' mon simpleton.
Click to expand...


exactly, and the Mullahs attempt to fix the election could very well backfire on them
the Iranian people might just expect an actual free election


----------



## garyd

Apprently they did and aren't real happy.


----------



## Bfgrn

Xenophon said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Xenophon (the Greek mercenary who was the first neocon)
> 
> 
> 
> He was not a 'neocon' you imbecile.
> 
> 'Neocons' are LIBERALS who became hard on foreign policy, Xenophon was a Spartan soldier.
> 
> Didn't you learn from the past not to post spurilous history around here?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, those ' who yell 'god is great' and will happily stone gays and women are the conservatives who support the theocratic Islamic State, the Supreme Leader of Iran Ali Khamenei and his choice for president; conservative Mahmoud Ahmadinejad
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wrong again simpleton, BOTH men were selected by the 'supreme leader' to run, they are the same side of the same coin.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You said: "they aern't protesting the 'status quo' in Iran, they are protesting a dictatorship many have had enough of.[/COLOR]
> 
> Oppression - the exercise of authority or power in a burdensome, cruel, or unjust manner.
> synonym - dictatorship
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Which has nothing to do with 'status quo' mon simpleton.
Click to expand...



*Xenophon*, also known as Xenophon of Athens and Xenophon of Thebes, was a soldier, *mercenary* and a contemporary and admirer of Socrates. Xenophon was born into the ranks of the upper classes, thus granting him access to certain privileges of the aristocracy of ancient Attica.

*Legacy*
Xenophon's standing as a political philosopher has been defended in recent times by *Leo Strauss*, who devoted a considerable part of his philosophic analysis to the works of Xenophon, returning to the high judgment of Xenophon as a thinker expressed by Shaftesbury, Winckelmann, and Machiavelli.

*Leo Strauss* is the father of the *NeoConservative* movement, including many leaders of the Bush administration. Indeed, some of the main neocon players were students of Strauss at the University of Chicago, where he taught for many years. Strauss, born in Germany, was an admirer of Italian fascists, Nazi Philosophers and Machiavelli.

Alan Gilbert argues that Leo Strausss politics are very close to those of the recent generation of politically active Neocons. He traces the idea of a great anti-modern tyrant in the writings of Strauss, drawing on his discussion of Machiavelli, *Xenophon*, Plato, and his contemporary Alexandre Kojève. But the most interesting nuggets in Gilberts paper relate to Strausss direct engagement in the political world.

Gilbert looks at Strausss On Tyranny as a revealing source on this point:
*   Xenophon*s Socrates makes it clear that there is only one and sufficient title to rule: only knowledge and not force and fraud or election [note how Strauss rules out democracy here] or, we may add, inheritance makes a man a king or ruler. If this is the case constitutional rule, rule derived from elections is not essentially more legitimate than tyrannical rule, rule derived from force or fraud. Tyrannical rule as well as constitutional rule will be legitimate to the extent which the tyrant or the constitutional rulers will listen to the counsels of him who speaks well because he thinks well. At any rate, the rule of a tyrant, who comes to power by force or fraud or having committed any number of crimes, is essentially more legitimate than the rule of elected magistrates who refuse to listen to such suggestions, i.e. than the rule of elected magistrates as such.

Ref.
wiki 
http://www.harpers.org/archive/2009/06/hbc-90005094

*Mir-Hossein Mousavi* is an Iranian reformist politician, painter and architect who served as the fifth and last Prime Minister of the Islamic republic of Iran from 1981 to 1989. Mousavi is currently the president of the Iranian Academy of Arts and was a candidate for the 2009 presidential election.

Among his policies are creation of a free environment for the flow of information and corrections to the national budget. He wants to promote the creation of private, non-governmental TV networks and stop the operation of the "Moral Police". He has spoken about his opposition to massive changes in ministries compared to what he claims Ahmadinejad has done. Regarding the Iranian nuclear program, his plan includes reducing the cost by opposing radical approaches while maintaining what he sees as Iran's right.

*He has also vowed to review laws that discriminate against women in Iran* if he wins the upcoming election. He has stated that he would seek to disband the so called morality police force of Iran and make sure that women in Iran are treated equally, have the ability to attain financial empowerment and highest levels of decision making bodies.

Mousavi denied the claims that his candidacy is per request of Supreme Leader Khamenei, and asserted he had not sought Khamenei's approval beforehand.
wiki

Several hundred demonstrators  many wearing the trademark green colors of pro-reform candidate Mir Hossein Mousavis campaign  chanted "the government lied to the people" and gathered near the Interior Ministry as the final count from Friday's presidential election was announced.

It gave 62.6 percent of the vote to Ahmadinejad and 33.75 to Mousavi  a former prime minister who has become the hero of a youth-driven movement seeking greater liberties and a gentler face for Iran abroad.

With his wide network of young and middle-class backers, Mousavi could emerge as a leader for Iran's liberal ranks and bring internal pressure on Ahmadinejad and Iran's theocracy to adopt less confrontational policies toward the West.
AP

The status quo is Ahmadinejad...even a simpleton understand THAT...it is not an ideological term...

*Status quo*, literally "the state in which", is a Latin term meaning the current or existing state of affairs. To maintain the status quo is to keep the things the way they presently are.
wiki


----------



## Annie

Considering Strauss' philosophy and Gilbert's is it surprising that Gilbert would present his version of Strauss in what he deemed the worst light possible? Of course, Strauss was dead, but what the heh. 

While Gilbert certainly is credentialed, he's not in the same league as was Strauss as far as influential on other academics.


----------



## PubliusInfinitum

Harry Dresden said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Harry Dresden said:
> 
> 
> 
> you havent answered my question Sunni....were in the middle east are you from?.....just curious...
> 
> 
> 
> I am an American born and raised
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ok dude thanx for answering....
Click to expand...


Yep... the answer displays sufficient evidence to provide for treason charges...

This idiot is no less a traitorous subversive than the Islam-convert that shot the American Service men at the recruiting center.


----------



## Sunni Man

PubliusInfinitum said:


> Harry Dresden said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am an American born and raised
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ok dude thanx for answering....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yep... the answer displays sufficient evidence to provide for treason charges...
> 
> This idiot is no less a traitorous subversive than the Islam-convert that shot the American Service men at the recruiting center.
Click to expand...

Look here dick weed

I am also a Vietnam Vet

I have EARNED the right to state any veiws I want

I am a law abiding, tax paying, patriotic America

So STFU jackass


----------



## Annie

Sunni Man said:


> PubliusInfinitum said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Harry Dresden said:
> 
> 
> 
> ok dude thanx for answering....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep... the answer displays sufficient evidence to provide for treason charges...
> 
> This idiot is no less a traitorous subversive than the Islam-convert that shot the American Service men at the recruiting center.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Look here dick weed
> 
> I am also a Vietnam Vet
> 
> I have earned the right to state any veiws I want
> 
> I am a law abiding, tax paying, patriotic America
> 
> So STFU jackass
Click to expand...

Even though I disagree with nearly all you say and spin, I do agree with the above-even if you hadn't served in Vietnam.


----------



## Bfgrn

Annie said:


> Considering Strauss' philosophy and Gilbert's is it surprising that Gilbert would present his version of Strauss in what he deemed the worst light possible? Of course, Strauss was dead, but what the heh.
> 
> While Gilbert certainly is credentialed, he's not in the same league as was Strauss as far as influential on other academics.



The direct influence on our current situation is from the neocons. They cherry pick from anyone or anything that fits their aggressive military agenda...they are NOT intellectuals

I heard Richard "Prince of Darkness" Perle describe how he was energized as a young man by the soaring rhetoric of John Kennedy's Inaugural address:

"Let the word go forth from this time and place, to friend and foe alike, that the torch has been passed to a new generation of Americans--born in this century, tempered by war, disciplined by a hard and bitter peace, proud of our ancient heritage--and unwilling to witness or permit the slow undoing of those human rights to which this nation has always been committed, and to which we are committed today at home and around the world.

Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty."

What Perle ignored was the real message and the real Jack Kennedy...

"...remember that, in the past, those who foolishly sought power by riding the back of the tiger ended up inside.

Finally, to those nations who would make themselves our adversary, we offer not a pledge but a request: that both sides begin anew the quest for peace, before the dark powers of destruction unleashed by science engulf all humanity in planned or accidental self-destruction.

We dare not tempt them with weakness. For only when our arms are sufficient beyond doubt can we be certain beyond doubt that they will never be employed.

But neither can two great and powerful groups of nations take comfort from our present course--both sides overburdened by the cost of modern weapons, both rightly alarmed by the steady spread of the deadly atom, yet both racing to alter that uncertain balance of terror that stays the hand of mankind's final war.

So let us begin anew--remembering on both sides that civility is not a sign of weakness, and sincerity is always subject to proof. Let us never negotiate out of fear. But let us never fear to negotiate.

Let both sides explore what problems unite us instead of belaboring those problems which divide us.

Let both sides, for the first time, formulate serious and precise proposals for the inspection and control of arms--and bring the absolute power to destroy other nations under the absolute control of all nations.

Let both sides seek to invoke the wonders of science instead of its terrors. Together let us explore the stars, conquer the deserts, eradicate disease, tap the ocean depths and encourage the arts and commerce.

Let both sides unite to heed in all corners of the earth the command of Isaiah--to "undo the heavy burdens . . . (and) let the oppressed go free."

And if a beachhead of cooperation may push back the jungle of suspicion, let both sides join in creating a new endeavor, not a new balance of power, but a new world of law, where the strong are just and the weak secure and the peace preserved.

All this will not be finished in the first one hundred days. Nor will it be finished in the first one thousand days, nor in the life of this Administration, nor even perhaps in our lifetime on this planet. ... But let us begin."


----------



## Annie

Bfgrn said:


> Annie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Considering Strauss' philosophy and Gilbert's is it surprising that Gilbert would present his version of Strauss in what he deemed the worst light possible? Of course, Strauss was dead, but what the heh.
> 
> While Gilbert certainly is credentialed, he's not in the same league as was Strauss as far as influential on other academics.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The direct influence on our current situation is from the neocons. They cherry pick from anyone or anything that fits their aggressive military agenda...they are NOT intellectuals
> 
> I heard Richard "Prince of Darkness" Perle describe how he was energized as a young man by the soaring rhetoric of John Kennedy's Inaugural address:
> 
> "Let the word go forth from this time and place, to friend and foe alike, that the torch has been passed to a new generation of Americans--born in this century, tempered by war, disciplined by a hard and bitter peace, proud of our ancient heritage--and unwilling to witness or permit the slow undoing of those human rights to which this nation has always been committed, and to which we are committed today at home and around the world.
> 
> Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty."
> 
> What Perle ignored was the real message and the real Jack Kennedy...
> 
> ...
Click to expand...


I read your 'history' quotes and interpretations across two boards. Two boards where the more intellectual roll their eyes at your posts. Why? You really don't know WTF you are posting about. 

Now that can happen to anyone occasionally, they read something too fast-focusing on what they want to see. However, it's been like that for you since opening days. The Gladstone quote in your signature-you'd no clue to what he stood for or what it meant. I quietly pm'd you to let you know, with a link. Any response? No. Been watching ever since, you have a penchant for doing the same, over and over again. You don't know history, but seem to think if you state something, it's believed. Many laugh.


----------



## Annie

Annie said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Annie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Considering Strauss' philosophy and Gilbert's is it surprising that Gilbert would present his version of Strauss in what he deemed the worst light possible? Of course, Strauss was dead, but what the heh.
> 
> While Gilbert certainly is credentialed, he's not in the same league as was Strauss as far as influential on other academics.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The direct influence on our current situation is from the neocons. They cherry pick from anyone or anything that fits their aggressive military agenda...they are NOT intellectuals
> 
> I heard Richard "Prince of Darkness" Perle describe how he was energized as a young man by the soaring rhetoric of John Kennedy's Inaugural address:
> 
> "Let the word go forth from this time and place, to friend and foe alike, that the torch has been passed to a new generation of Americans--born in this century, tempered by war, disciplined by a hard and bitter peace, proud of our ancient heritage--and unwilling to witness or permit the slow undoing of those human rights to which this nation has always been committed, and to which we are committed today at home and around the world.
> 
> Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty."
> 
> What Perle ignored was the real message and the real Jack Kennedy...
> 
> ...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I read your 'history' quotes and interpretations across two boards. Two boards where the more intellectual roll their eyes at your posts. Why? You really don't know WTF you are posting about.
> 
> Now that can happen to anyone occasionally, they read something too fast-focusing on what they want to see. However, it's been like that for you since opening days. The Gladstone quote in your signature-you'd no clue to what he stood for or what it meant. I quietly pm'd you to let you know, with a link. Any response? No. Been watching ever since, you have a penchant for doing the same, over and over again. You don't know history, but seem to think if you state something, it's believed. Many laugh.
Click to expand...


This may be the 'meanest' post I've ever written, but considering the condescension the poster has shown others, even upon reflection I think I'll leave it.


----------



## Sinatra

Bfgrn said:


> Annie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Considering Strauss' philosophy and Gilbert's is it surprising that Gilbert would present his version of Strauss in what he deemed the worst light possible? Of course, Strauss was dead, but what the heh.
> 
> While Gilbert certainly is credentialed, he's not in the same league as was Strauss as far as influential on other academics.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The direct influence on our current situation is from the neocons. They cherry pick from anyone or anything that fits their aggressive military agenda...they are NOT intellectuals
> 
> I heard Richard "Prince of Darkness" Perle describe how he was energized as a young man by the soaring rhetoric of John Kennedy's Inaugural address:
> 
> "Let the word go forth from this time and place, to friend and foe alike, that the torch has been passed to a new generation of Americans--born in this century, tempered by war, disciplined by a hard and bitter peace, proud of our ancient heritage--and unwilling to witness or permit the slow undoing of those human rights to which this nation has always been committed, and to which we are committed today at home and around the world.
> 
> Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty."
> 
> What Perle ignored was the real message and the real Jack Kennedy...
> 
> "...remember that, in the past, those who foolishly sought power by riding the back of the tiger ended up inside.
> 
> Finally, to those nations who would make themselves our adversary, we offer not a pledge but a request: that both sides begin anew the quest for peace, before the dark powers of destruction unleashed by science engulf all humanity in planned or accidental self-destruction.
> 
> We dare not tempt them with weakness. For only when our arms are sufficient beyond doubt can we be certain beyond doubt that they will never be employed.
> 
> But neither can two great and powerful groups of nations take comfort from our present course--both sides overburdened by the cost of modern weapons, both rightly alarmed by the steady spread of the deadly atom, yet both racing to alter that uncertain balance of terror that stays the hand of mankind's final war.
> 
> So let us begin anew--remembering on both sides that civility is not a sign of weakness, and sincerity is always subject to proof. Let us never negotiate out of fear. But let us never fear to negotiate.
> 
> Let both sides explore what problems unite us instead of belaboring those problems which divide us.
> 
> Let both sides, for the first time, formulate serious and precise proposals for the inspection and control of arms--and bring the absolute power to destroy other nations under the absolute control of all nations.
> 
> Let both sides seek to invoke the wonders of science instead of its terrors. Together let us explore the stars, conquer the deserts, eradicate disease, tap the ocean depths and encourage the arts and commerce.
> 
> Let both sides unite to heed in all corners of the earth the command of Isaiah--to "undo the heavy burdens . . . (and) let the oppressed go free."
> 
> And if a beachhead of cooperation may push back the jungle of suspicion, let both sides join in creating a new endeavor, not a new balance of power, but a new world of law, where the strong are just and the weak secure and the peace preserved.
> 
> All this will not be finished in the first one hundred days. Nor will it be finished in the first one thousand days, nor in the life of this Administration, nor even perhaps in our lifetime on this planet. ... But let us begin."
Click to expand...



Kennedy was a neocon.

His Sec. of Defense oversaw the most disastrously drawn out police action in the history of the United States premised on the Domino Theory.

Get past the myth created by assassination and you are left with the truth - JFK was neocon 101...


----------



## Xenophon

Bfgrn said:


> Nonsense deleated.


Didn't I tell you many times before NOT to post bullshit history to me?

Xenophon has NOTHING to do with being a 'Neocon'.

Also, although born in Athens, he was Spartan in alligence.

His writings concern the ancient world.:



> With a number of extant writings, Xenophon is noted for his accounts of life in Greece, both in ancient times and during the 4th and 3rd centuries BCE. Formally a young student of Socrates, he would later record a number of Socratic dialogues as well as personal accounts of Socrates, whom he admired greatly. As a young adult, Xenophon informally served in the army under the Persian prince Cyrus the Younger, helping to lead his contingent over land back to the Black Sea after Cyrus' death in battle. His account of this journey, recorded in his Anabasis, is read in academia today, though more for its language than its testimony. Later joining the Spartan army, *Xenophon, not at all a nationalist*, was exiled from Athens after fighting against them in their war with Sparta. Eventually settling in Scillus in southern Greece, Xenophon began a long trajectory of writing--historical tracts, generalized works of instruction (specifically on training and rearing animals), essays on the military, politics and economics, as well as the aforementioned Socratic works.  These latter works were both a recording of some of Socrates' dialogues, as well as a general history of Socrates' methods of teaching. Though Xenophon's Socratic tracts are largely disregarded, Xenophon's Memorabilia is often referenced as an account of Socrates' religious views.



Xenophon [Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy]

The main tentant of 'Neocons' is nationalism, once again, you don't have clue one what you are talking about, you throw shit and hopes it sticks to the wall.

It will never wash here.


----------



## Xenophon

Annie said:


> This may be the 'meanest' post I've ever written, but considering the condescension the poster has shown others, even upon reflection I think I'll leave it.


It's not cruel Annie, its accurate.

The worst thing partisans do is try to distort history in the hopes of proving or proping up some theory, or to try and under cut someone else.

Exibit A from him is the nonsense that an historical figure was a 'neocon' in an attempt to try and say I am as well, which is propably the stupiest assertion yet made at me(and that is saying alot with sillybozo on this board).



> neocon
> 
> "Neoconservatism is the first variant of American conservatism in the past century that is in the 'American grain.' It is hopeful, not lugubrious; forward-looking, not nostalgic; and its general tone is cheerful, not grim or dyspeptic. Its 20th-century heroes tend to be FDR, and Ronald Reagan. Such Republican and conservative worthies as Calvin Coolidge, Herbert Hoover, Dwight Eisenhower, and Barry Goldwater are politely overlooked." [Irving Kristol, "The Neoconservative Persuasion," in "The Weekly Standard," Aug. 25, 2003]



That is from the man who coined the term.

It has NOTHING to do with non Americans or past historical times, yet we see this fool try a spurilous linkage.

You cannot be to harsh with such nonsense as he posted.


----------



## Xenophon

*Arrests of Rafsanjani kin show Iran clerics split*

TEHRAN, Iran &#8211; Iran's government said Sunday it arrested the daughter and four other relatives of former President Hashemi Rafsanjani, one of the country's most powerful men, in a move that exposed a rift among the ruling Islamic clerics over the disputed presidential election.

State media also reported at least 10 more deaths, bringing the official toll for a week of confrontations to at least 17. State television inside Iran said 10 were killed and 100 injured in clashes Saturday between demonstrators contesting the result of the June 12 election and black-clad police wielding truncheons, tear gas and water cannons.

Police and members of the Basij militia took up positions in the afternoon on major streets and squares, including the site of Saturday's clashes. There was no word on any new clashes Sunday, although after dark many people in Tehran went to their rooftops to shout "Death to the dictator" and Allahu akbar," a common form of defiance in recent days.

State-run Press TV reported that Rafsanjani's eldest daughter, Faezeh Hashemi, and four other unidentified family members were arrested late Saturday. On Sunday evening, it said the four others had been released but that Hashemi remained in detention. However, Iran's ambassador to France Seyed Mehdi Miraboutalebi said on France's RFI radio that Hashemi had been released.

Last week, state television showed images of Hashemi, 46, speaking to hundreds of supporters of opposition candidate Mir Hossein Mousavi. He alleges fraud in the June 12 election, which the government said President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad won.

Rest of story here:
Arrests of Rafsanjani kin show Iran clerics split - Yahoo! News

The state is now taking hostages to silence critics, a move of desperation.


----------



## Bfgrn

Annie said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Annie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Considering Strauss' philosophy and Gilbert's is it surprising that Gilbert would present his version of Strauss in what he deemed the worst light possible? Of course, Strauss was dead, but what the heh.
> 
> While Gilbert certainly is credentialed, he's not in the same league as was Strauss as far as influential on other academics.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The direct influence on our current situation is from the neocons. They cherry pick from anyone or anything that fits their aggressive military agenda...they are NOT intellectuals
> 
> I heard Richard "Prince of Darkness" Perle describe how he was energized as a young man by the soaring rhetoric of John Kennedy's Inaugural address:
> 
> "Let the word go forth from this time and place, to friend and foe alike, that the torch has been passed to a new generation of Americans--born in this century, tempered by war, disciplined by a hard and bitter peace, proud of our ancient heritage--and unwilling to witness or permit the slow undoing of those human rights to which this nation has always been committed, and to which we are committed today at home and around the world.
> 
> Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty."
> 
> What Perle ignored was the real message and the real Jack Kennedy...
> 
> ...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I read your 'history' quotes and interpretations across two boards. Two boards where the more intellectual roll their eyes at your posts. Why? You really don't know WTF you are posting about.
> 
> Now that can happen to anyone occasionally, they read something too fast-focusing on what they want to see. However, it's been like that for you since opening days. The Gladstone quote in your signature-you'd no clue to what he stood for or what it meant. I quietly pm'd you to let you know, with a link. Any response? No. Been watching ever since, you have a penchant for doing the same, over and over again. You don't know history, but seem to think if you state something, it's believed. Many laugh.
Click to expand...


Well Annie, I must say, this doesn't surprise me...I guess my exposing that you're a pea brain has not garnered gratitude. I just have a few questions and comments...

You said:
_I read your 'history' quotes and interpretations across two boards. Two boards where the more intellectual roll their eyes at your posts. Why? You really don't know WTF you are posting about. _

Unless you sit at a PC at an Ivy League school; sharing posts on this board to gauge the reactions to my posts, then the intellectual you refer to that rolls his/her eyes would be YOU...how modest of you Annie...I didn't know Pea Brain U. was Ivy League... 

You said:
_The Gladstone quote in your signature-you'd no clue to what he stood for or what it meant. I quietly pm'd you to let you know, with a link._

I just checked my private messages...none from you... 

Joseph Stalin said: "The people who cast the votes don't decide an election, the people who count the votes do." That is a true statement, so what Stalin stood for is not relevant.

Gladstone's quote: Liberalism is trust of the people, tempered by prudence; conservatism, distrust of people, tempered by fear.

I know what it means and I am sure it is a true statement, so whatever you feelI needed to know is irrelevant. There are numerous psychological studies that verify Gladstone's insight into human nature...

Annie, I want you to have laughs, it relieves angst; so here's what you do...instead of building up all that angst and then sending off a half-cocked self righteous critique, when you see something that your intellectual pea believes is in error, you must challenge me at that moment...

Then I will hand you your pea on a platter, just for laughs...OK?


----------



## DiveCon

Bfgrn said:


> Annie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> The direct influence on our current situation is from the neocons. They cherry pick from anyone or anything that fits their aggressive military agenda...they are NOT intellectuals
> 
> I heard Richard "Prince of Darkness" Perle describe how he was energized as a young man by the soaring rhetoric of John Kennedy's Inaugural address:
> 
> "Let the word go forth from this time and place, to friend and foe alike, that the torch has been passed to a new generation of Americans--born in this century, tempered by war, disciplined by a hard and bitter peace, proud of our ancient heritage--and unwilling to witness or permit the slow undoing of those human rights to which this nation has always been committed, and to which we are committed today at home and around the world.
> 
> Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty."
> 
> What Perle ignored was the real message and the real Jack Kennedy...
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I read your 'history' quotes and interpretations across two boards. Two boards where the more intellectual roll their eyes at your posts. Why? You really don't know WTF you are posting about.
> 
> Now that can happen to anyone occasionally, they read something too fast-focusing on what they want to see. However, it's been like that for you since opening days. The Gladstone quote in your signature-you'd no clue to what he stood for or what it meant. I quietly pm'd you to let you know, with a link. Any response? No. Been watching ever since, you have a penchant for doing the same, over and over again. You don't know history, but seem to think if you state something, it's believed. Many laugh.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well Annie, I must say, this doesn't surprise me...I guess my exposing that you're a pea brain has not garnered gratitude. I just have a few questions and comments...
> 
> You said:
> _I read your 'history' quotes and interpretations across two boards. Two boards where the more intellectual roll their eyes at your posts. Why? You really don't know WTF you are posting about. _
> 
> Unless you sit at a PC at an Ivy League school; sharing posts on this board to gauge the reactions to my posts, then the intellectual you refer to that rolls his/her eyes would be YOU...how modest of you Annie...I didn't know Pea Brain U. was Ivy League...
> 
> You said:
> _The Gladstone quote in your signature-you'd no clue to what he stood for or what it meant. I quietly pm'd you to let you know, with a link._
> 
> I just checked my private messages...none from you...
> 
> Joseph Stalin said: "The people who cast the votes don't decide an election, the people who count the votes do." That is a true statement, so what Stalin stood for is not relevant.
> 
> Gladstone's quote: Liberalism is trust of the people, tempered by prudence; conservatism, distrust of people, tempered by fear.
> 
> I know what it means and I am sure it is a true statement, so whatever you feelI needed to know is irrelevant. There are numerous psychological studies that verify Gladstone's insight into human nature...
> 
> Annie, I want you to have laughs, it relieves angst; so here's what you do...instead of building up all that angst and then sending off a half-cocked self righteous critique, when you see something that your intellectual pea believes is in error, you must challenge me at that moment...
> 
> Then I will hand you your pea on a platter, just for laughs...OK?
Click to expand...

a peabrain, or more correct, braindead moron, like you calling someone a peabrain is the hight of hypocrisy


----------



## Ame®icano

Sunni Man said:


> You people are borderline silly over the Iranian protesters.
> 
> In 1989 there were massive protests at Tiananmen Square in China.
> 
> It went on for a couple of weeks and involved huge numbers of Chineese citizens.
> 
> The news media intensely covered the story and experts predicted the fall of the communist Chineese government.
> 
> Wrong!!!
> 
> The protesters were violently stopped and the ring leaders arrested and given long prison sentences.
> 
> The incident faded into history and the Chinese government continued on with business as usual.
> 
> The Iran situation will also follow this same scenario and become a non event



Sunni is right. Whole world was talking about Tiananman Squeare for about a week and after that would mention it once a year in a news. Today, most of us hardly remember what happen there. It would be the same with Iran.



Xenophon said:


> But you are wrong, China changed radically after that.



Only thing that changed in China is that they hold huge chunk of our national debt. Who knows, maybe we'll start borrowing from Iran too in exchange to be quiet. It wouldn't surprise me at all...


----------



## garyd

As if Gladstones consevatives have anything at all in common with the people we call conservatives in the US today. And as if Gladstone would have found anything at all appealing about what now passes for modern day liberalism.

What we call liberals this day and age in the US have more in common with Mussolini than with Gladstone. 

What you Bfgrn don't know about history and politics could and likely has filled several volumes of history books and political science modifiers.


----------



## Bfgrn

garyd said:


> As if Gladstones consevatives have anything at all in common with the people we call conservatives in the US today. And as if Gladstone would have found anything at all appealing about what now passes for modern day liberalism.
> 
> What we call liberals this day and age in the US have more in common with Mussolini than with Gladstone.
> 
> What you Bfgrn don't know about history and politics could and likely has filled several volumes of history books and political science modifiers.



Really, then teach me... I 'm always open to gaining more knowledge, and it seems I found in you the mother lode...

I'll start...Gladstone conservatives are scarce... he was a liberal...

Your turn...


----------



## Annie

DiveCon said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Annie said:
> 
> 
> 
> I read your 'history' quotes and interpretations across two boards. Two boards where the more intellectual roll their eyes at your posts. Why? You really don't know WTF you are posting about.
> 
> Now that can happen to anyone occasionally, they read something too fast-focusing on what they want to see. However, it's been like that for you since opening days. The Gladstone quote in your signature-you'd no clue to what he stood for or what it meant. I quietly pm'd you to let you know, with a link. Any response? No. Been watching ever since, you have a penchant for doing the same, over and over again. You don't know history, but seem to think if you state something, it's believed. Many laugh.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well Annie, I must say, this doesn't surprise me...I guess my exposing that you're a pea brain has not garnered gratitude. I just have a few questions and comments...
> 
> You said:
> _I read your 'history' quotes and interpretations across two boards. Two boards where the more intellectual roll their eyes at your posts. Why? You really don't know WTF you are posting about. _
> 
> Unless you sit at a PC at an Ivy League school; sharing posts on this board to gauge the reactions to my posts, then the intellectual you refer to that rolls his/her eyes would be YOU...how modest of you Annie...I didn't know Pea Brain U. was Ivy League...
> 
> You said:
> _The Gladstone quote in your signature-you'd no clue to what he stood for or what it meant. I quietly pm'd you to let you know, with a link._
> 
> I just checked my private messages...none from you...
> 
> Joseph Stalin said: "The people who cast the votes don't decide an election, the people who count the votes do." That is a true statement, so what Stalin stood for is not relevant.
> 
> Gladstone's quote: Liberalism is trust of the people, tempered by prudence; conservatism, distrust of people, tempered by fear.
> 
> I know what it means and I am sure it is a true statement, so whatever you feelI needed to know is irrelevant. There are numerous psychological studies that verify Gladstone's insight into human nature...
> 
> Annie, I want you to have laughs, it relieves angst; so here's what you do...instead of building up all that angst and then sending off a half-cocked self righteous critique, when you see something that your intellectual pea believes is in error, you must challenge me at that moment...
> 
> Then I will hand you your pea on a platter, just for laughs...OK?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> a peabrain, or more correct, braindead moron, like you calling someone a peabrain is the hight of hypocrisy
Click to expand...


 Oh my, I seriously feel slapped about. You sir, are a failure. As a man, historian, and effective political influencer. Failed, big time.


----------



## PubliusInfinitum

garyd said:


> As if Gladstones consevatives have anything at all in common with the people we call conservatives in the US today. And as if Gladstone would have found anything at all appealing about what now passes for modern day liberalism.
> 
> What we call liberals this day and age in the US have more in common with Mussolini than with Gladstone.
> 
> What you Bfgrn don't know about history and politics could and likely has filled several volumes of history books and political science modifiers.



Well said...  The member to which you're responding is an imbecile of the first order and a troll of the lowest order...  

She's here for no other purpose than to see herself post.

I quickly found her intellectual means prevented any means to learn and placed her on ignore... you'd be surprised how little ya miss her...


----------



## DiveCon

Annie said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well Annie, I must say, this doesn't surprise me...I guess my exposing that you're a pea brain has not garnered gratitude. I just have a few questions and comments...
> 
> You said:
> _I read your 'history' quotes and interpretations across two boards. Two boards where the more intellectual roll their eyes at your posts. Why? You really don't know WTF you are posting about. _
> 
> Unless you sit at a PC at an Ivy League school; sharing posts on this board to gauge the reactions to my posts, then the intellectual you refer to that rolls his/her eyes would be YOU...how modest of you Annie...I didn't know Pea Brain U. was Ivy League...
> 
> You said:
> _The Gladstone quote in your signature-you'd no clue to what he stood for or what it meant. I quietly pm'd you to let you know, with a link._
> 
> I just checked my private messages...none from you...
> 
> Joseph Stalin said: "The people who cast the votes don't decide an election, the people who count the votes do." That is a true statement, so what Stalin stood for is not relevant.
> 
> Gladstone's quote: Liberalism is trust of the people, tempered by prudence; conservatism, distrust of people, tempered by fear.
> 
> I know what it means and I am sure it is a true statement, so whatever you feelI needed to know is irrelevant. There are numerous psychological studies that verify Gladstone's insight into human nature...
> 
> Annie, I want you to have laughs, it relieves angst; so here's what you do...instead of building up all that angst and then sending off a half-cocked self righteous critique, when you see something that your intellectual pea believes is in error, you must challenge me at that moment...
> 
> Then I will hand you your pea on a platter, just for laughs...OK?
> 
> 
> 
> a peabrain, or more correct, braindead moron, like you calling someone a peabrain is the hight of hypocrisy
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh my, I seriously feel slapped about. You sir, are a failure. As a man, historian, and effective political influencer. Failed, big time.
Click to expand...

um, i think you quoted the wrong post


----------



## DiveCon

PubliusInfinitum said:


> garyd said:
> 
> 
> 
> As if Gladstones consevatives have anything at all in common with the people we call conservatives in the US today. And as if Gladstone would have found anything at all appealing about what now passes for modern day liberalism.
> 
> What we call liberals this day and age in the US have more in common with Mussolini than with Gladstone.
> 
> What you Bfgrn don't know about history and politics could and likely has filled several volumes of history books and political science modifiers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well said...  The member to which you're responding is an imbecile of the first order and a troll of the lowest order...
> 
> She's here for no other purpose than to see herself post.
> 
> I quickly found her intellectual means prevented any means to learn and placed her on ignore... you'd be surprised how little ya miss her...
Click to expand...

please stop calling moronic males "she"
it is insulting to women that are not morons


----------



## Bfgrn

Sinatra said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Annie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Considering Strauss' philosophy and Gilbert's is it surprising that Gilbert would present his version of Strauss in what he deemed the worst light possible? Of course, Strauss was dead, but what the heh.
> 
> While Gilbert certainly is credentialed, he's not in the same league as was Strauss as far as influential on other academics.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The direct influence on our current situation is from the neocons. They cherry pick from anyone or anything that fits their aggressive military agenda...they are NOT intellectuals
> 
> I heard Richard "Prince of Darkness" Perle describe how he was energized as a young man by the soaring rhetoric of John Kennedy's Inaugural address:
> 
> "Let the word go forth from this time and place, to friend and foe alike, that the torch has been passed to a new generation of Americans--born in this century, tempered by war, disciplined by a hard and bitter peace, proud of our ancient heritage--and unwilling to witness or permit the slow undoing of those human rights to which this nation has always been committed, and to which we are committed today at home and around the world.
> 
> Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty."
> 
> What Perle ignored was the real message and the real Jack Kennedy...
> 
> "...remember that, in the past, those who foolishly sought power by riding the back of the tiger ended up inside.
> 
> Finally, to those nations who would make themselves our adversary, we offer not a pledge but a request: that both sides begin anew the quest for peace, before the dark powers of destruction unleashed by science engulf all humanity in planned or accidental self-destruction.
> 
> We dare not tempt them with weakness. For only when our arms are sufficient beyond doubt can we be certain beyond doubt that they will never be employed.
> 
> But neither can two great and powerful groups of nations take comfort from our present course--both sides overburdened by the cost of modern weapons, both rightly alarmed by the steady spread of the deadly atom, yet both racing to alter that uncertain balance of terror that stays the hand of mankind's final war.
> 
> So let us begin anew--remembering on both sides that civility is not a sign of weakness, and sincerity is always subject to proof. Let us never negotiate out of fear. But let us never fear to negotiate.
> 
> Let both sides explore what problems unite us instead of belaboring those problems which divide us.
> 
> Let both sides, for the first time, formulate serious and precise proposals for the inspection and control of arms--and bring the absolute power to destroy other nations under the absolute control of all nations.
> 
> Let both sides seek to invoke the wonders of science instead of its terrors. Together let us explore the stars, conquer the deserts, eradicate disease, tap the ocean depths and encourage the arts and commerce.
> 
> Let both sides unite to heed in all corners of the earth the command of Isaiah--to "undo the heavy burdens . . . (and) let the oppressed go free."
> 
> And if a beachhead of cooperation may push back the jungle of suspicion, let both sides join in creating a new endeavor, not a new balance of power, but a new world of law, where the strong are just and the weak secure and the peace preserved.
> 
> All this will not be finished in the first one hundred days. Nor will it be finished in the first one thousand days, nor in the life of this Administration, nor even perhaps in our lifetime on this planet. ... But let us begin."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Kennedy was a neocon.
> 
> His Sec. of Defense oversaw the most disastrously drawn out police action in the history of the United States premised on the Domino Theory.
> 
> Get past the myth created by assassination and you are left with the truth - JFK was neocon 101...
Click to expand...


I'm sure you continue this false accusation for effect... did you read JFK's American University speech I posted?

Why don't we start here...define a neocon...

BTW, the Vietnam War you refer to:

Vietnam War casualties - USA
1956-1964          401
        1965        1,863
        1966 	6,143
	1967 	11,153
	1968 	16,592
	1969 	11,616
	1970 	6,081
	1971 	2,357
	1972 	641
	1973 	168
1974-1998 	1178

Look up November 22, 1963...







From 16,000 troops at the end of the Kennedy Administration, the U.S. commitment grew to 184,000 troops by the end of 1965 and reached a peak of 537,000 in the last year (1968) of the Johnson Administration


----------



## Bfgrn

PubliusInfinitum said:


> garyd said:
> 
> 
> 
> As if Gladstones consevatives have anything at all in common with the people we call conservatives in the US today. And as if Gladstone would have found anything at all appealing about what now passes for modern day liberalism.
> 
> What we call liberals this day and age in the US have more in common with Mussolini than with Gladstone.
> 
> What you Bfgrn don't know about history and politics could and likely has filled several volumes of history books and political science modifiers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well said...  The member to which you're responding is an imbecile of the first order and a troll of the lowest order...
> 
> She's here for no other purpose than to see herself post.
> 
> I quickly found her intellectual means prevented any means to learn and placed her on ignore... you'd be surprised how little ya miss her...
Click to expand...


If John Kenneth Galbraith were alive today, he would probably say: The modern right wing pea brain is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for cowardice.

I think Bush calls it "cut & run"

Of course, the obligatory ROFLMAO


----------



## DiveCon

Bfgrn said:


> PubliusInfinitum said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> garyd said:
> 
> 
> 
> As if Gladstones consevatives have anything at all in common with the people we call conservatives in the US today. And as if Gladstone would have found anything at all appealing about what now passes for modern day liberalism.
> 
> What we call liberals this day and age in the US have more in common with Mussolini than with Gladstone.
> 
> What you Bfgrn don't know about history and politics could and likely has filled several volumes of history books and political science modifiers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well said...  The member to which you're responding is an imbecile of the first order and a troll of the lowest order...
> 
> She's here for no other purpose than to see herself post.
> 
> I quickly found her intellectual means prevented any means to learn and placed her on ignore... you'd be surprised how little ya miss her...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If John Kenneth Galbraith were alive today, he would probably say: The modern right wing pea brain is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for cowardice.
> 
> I think Bush calls it "cut & run"
> 
> Of course, the obligatory ROFLMAO
Click to expand...

sure thing, peabrain


----------



## Annie

Bfgrn said:


> PubliusInfinitum said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> garyd said:
> 
> 
> 
> As if Gladstones consevatives have anything at all in common with the people we call conservatives in the US today. And as if Gladstone would have found anything at all appealing about what now passes for modern day liberalism.
> 
> What we call liberals this day and age in the US have more in common with Mussolini than with Gladstone.
> 
> What you Bfgrn don't know about history and politics could and likely has filled several volumes of history books and political science modifiers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well said...  The member to which you're responding is an imbecile of the first order and a troll of the lowest order...
> 
> She's here for no other purpose than to see herself post.
> 
> I quickly found her intellectual means prevented any means to learn and placed her on ignore... you'd be surprised how little ya miss her...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If John Kenneth Galbraith were alive today, he would probably say: The modern right wing pea brain is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for cowardice.
> 
> I think Bush calls it "cut & run"
> 
> Of course, the obligatory ROFLMAO
Click to expand...


Where? In any of Gailbraith's writings would you find 'pea brain' regarding any that disagreed with him? Oh...

Listen bro, you may have some things to say, but don't put your thoughts in your better's mouths, unless you believe you are their better. Good luck with that.


----------



## Bfgrn

DiveCon said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PubliusInfinitum said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well said...  The member to which you're responding is an imbecile of the first order and a troll of the lowest order...
> 
> She's here for no other purpose than to see herself post.
> 
> I quickly found her intellectual means prevented any means to learn and placed her on ignore... you'd be surprised how little ya miss her...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If John Kenneth Galbraith were alive today, he would probably say: The modern right wing pea brain is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for cowardice.
> 
> I think Bush calls it "cut & run"
> 
> Of course, the obligatory ROFLMAO
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> sure thing, peabrain
Click to expand...


Hey Dive, better cut down on the length of your posts...geez, what are you writing; an autobiography?


----------



## DiveCon

Bfgrn said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> If John Kenneth Galbraith were alive today, he would probably say: The modern right wing pea brain is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for cowardice.
> 
> I think Bush calls it "cut & run"
> 
> Of course, the obligatory ROFLMAO
> 
> 
> 
> sure thing, peabrain
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hey Dive, better cut down on the length of your posts...geez, what are you writing; an autobiography?
Click to expand...

i dont waste that much time on morons like you

are you begining to understand yet?


----------



## Alpha1

Bfgrn said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Irony...
> 
> Progressives in Iran take to the streets to protest oppression and the status quo...conservatives in Iran support the authoritarian regime and chant "death to America"...
> 
> Conservatives in America defend progressives right to protest in Iran...just not in America...then they're called lawless dissidents and UN American ...
> 
> Conservatism is based on latitude, longitude and date of birth.
> *Bfgrn*
> 
> 
> 
> no big surprise, you get it WRONG once again
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sorry pea brain, but I'm dead on...you're no match for me...never have been, never will be..you're just a spectator, not a participant...a heckler from the peanut gallery...
Click to expand...


Pea brain ?   you're no match for me ?   

Absolutely !  Your pea brain is by far no match for anyone...., unless we have some posters with an even lower IQ than yours, and I find that very hard to imagine....You  are definitely that "lead pinhead" of the left....


----------



## DiveCon

Alpha1 said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> no big surprise, you get it WRONG once again
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry pea brain, but I'm dead on...you're no match for me...never have been, never will be..you're just a spectator, not a participant...a heckler from the peanut gallery...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Pea brain ? you're no match for me ?
> 
> Absolutely ! Your pea brain is by far no match for anyone...., unless we have some posters with an even lower IQ than yours, and I find that very hard to imagine....You are definitely that "*lead* pinhead" of the left....
Click to expand...

 i doubt he could LEAD anything
he's nothing more than a follower


----------



## Annie

Annie said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PubliusInfinitum said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well said...  The member to which you're responding is an imbecile of the first order and a troll of the lowest order...
> 
> She's here for no other purpose than to see herself post.
> 
> I quickly found her intellectual means prevented any means to learn and placed her on ignore... you'd be surprised how little ya miss her...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If John Kenneth Galbraith were alive today, he would probably say: The modern right wing pea brain is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for cowardice.
> 
> I think Bush calls it "cut & run"
> 
> Of course, the obligatory ROFLMAO
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Where? In any of Gailbraith's writings would you find 'pea brain' regarding any that disagreed with him? Oh...
> 
> Listen bro, you may have some things to say, but don't put your thoughts in your better's mouths, unless you believe you are their better. Good luck with that.
Click to expand...


bump, I guess there isn't a response. You used Gailbraith's quotes in vain. Lordy knows, won't be the first great you denigrated in your nonsense.


----------



## concept

news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_iran_election


> State media said the daughter and four other relatives of former President Hashemi Rafsanjani were released later Sunday but their arrests appeared to be a clear warning from the hardline establishment to a cleric who may be aligning himself with the opposition.
> 
> Tehran's streets fell mostly quiet for the first time since a bitterly disputed June 12 presidential election, but cries of "God is great!" echoed again from rooftops after dark, a sign of seething anger at a government crackdown that peaked with at least 10 protesters' deaths Saturday.



Rasfanjani's relatives were arrested but later released. All is not too calm and we'll see how this little slice of terror affects the situation.

IMO I'd like to see some assitance to the protestors. 

Iran didn't seem to have a problem aiding AQ in Iraq and turn about is fair play.


----------



## PubliusInfinitum

DiveCon said:


> PubliusInfinitum said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> garyd said:
> 
> 
> 
> As if Gladstones consevatives have anything at all in common with the people we call conservatives in the US today. And as if Gladstone would have found anything at all appealing about what now passes for modern day liberalism.
> 
> What we call liberals this day and age in the US have more in common with Mussolini than with Gladstone.
> 
> What you Bfgrn don't know about history and politics could and likely has filled several volumes of history books and political science modifiers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well said...  The member to which you're responding is an imbecile of the first order and a troll of the lowest order...
> 
> She's here for no other purpose than to see herself post.
> 
> I quickly found her intellectual means prevented any means to learn and placed her on ignore... you'd be surprised how little ya miss her...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> please stop calling moronic males "she"
> it is insulting to women that are not morons
Click to expand...


Can't help ya buddy... The ideological left represents the feminine perspective... and if that offends some women, then I suggest that they get busy trying to distance themselves from those who work so hard, each and everyday, to make the feminine perspective into something which isn't so... irrational.

The non-irrational ladies know exactly what I'm talking about... and I doubt they're offended in the slightest.


----------



## Bfgrn

Alpha1 said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> no big surprise, you get it WRONG once again
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry pea brain, but I'm dead on...you're no match for me...never have been, never will be..you're just a spectator, not a participant...a heckler from the peanut gallery...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Pea brain ?   you're no match for me ?
> 
> Absolutely !  Your pea brain is by far no match for anyone...., unless we have some posters with an even lower IQ than yours, and I find that very hard to imagine....You  are definitely that "lead pinhead" of the left....
Click to expand...



Prove it, pick a topic and I'll will give you the grand opportunity to show your superior intellect...

BTW, Dive is a "special" friend that sends me vile profanity filled private messages...


----------



## DiveCon

Bfgrn said:


> Alpha1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry pea brain, but I'm dead on...you're no match for me...never have been, never will be..you're just a spectator, not a participant...a heckler from the peanut gallery...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pea brain ?   you're no match for me ?
> 
> Absolutely !  Your pea brain is by far no match for anyone...., unless we have some posters with an even lower IQ than yours, and I find that very hard to imagine....You  are definitely that "lead pinhead" of the left....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Prove it, pick a topic and I'll will give you the grand opportunity to show your superior intellect...
> 
> BTW, Dive is a "special" friend that sends me vile profanity filled private messages...
Click to expand...

wrong again, i sent you a neg rep
not a PM
stop lying


----------



## Bfgrn

DiveCon said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alpha1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Pea brain ?   you're no match for me ?
> 
> Absolutely !  Your pea brain is by far no match for anyone...., unless we have some posters with an even lower IQ than yours, and I find that very hard to imagine....You  are definitely that "lead pinhead" of the left....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Prove it, pick a topic and I'll will give you the grand opportunity to show your superior intellect...
> 
> BTW, Dive is a "special" friend that sends me vile profanity filled private messages...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> wrong again, i sent you a neg rep
> not a PM
> stop lying
Click to expand...


I apologize...Dive is a "special" friend that sends me neg reps with vile profanity filled messages...


----------



## DiveCon

Bfgrn said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Prove it, pick a topic and I'll will give you the grand opportunity to show your superior intellect...
> 
> BTW, Dive is a "special" friend that sends me vile profanity filled private messages...
> 
> 
> 
> wrong again, i sent you a neg rep
> not a PM
> stop lying
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I apologize...Dive is a "special" friend that sends me neg reps with vile profanity filled messages...
Click to expand...

and i'm not your "friend" special or otherwise
i wouldnt cross the street to piss on you if you were on fire


----------



## Bfgrn

DiveCon said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> wrong again, i sent you a neg rep
> not a PM
> stop lying
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I apologize...Dive is a "special" friend that sends me neg reps with vile profanity filled messages...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> and i'm not your "friend" special or otherwise
> i wouldnt cross the street to piss on you if you were on fire
Click to expand...


WOW, that's "special"... did your mother walk in an upright posture?


----------



## DiveCon

Bfgrn said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> I apologize...Dive is a "special" friend that sends me neg reps with vile profanity filled messages...
> 
> 
> 
> and i'm not your "friend" special or otherwise
> i wouldnt cross the street to piss on you if you were on fire
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> WOW, that's "special"... did your mother walk in an upright posture?
Click to expand...

so typical
attacking family members
that is a violation of the board rules


----------



## Bfgrn

DiveCon said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> and i'm not your "friend" special or otherwise
> i wouldnt cross the street to piss on you if you were on fire
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WOW, that's "special"... did your mother walk in an upright posture?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> so typical
> attacking family members
> that is a violation of the board rules
Click to expand...


You're right, that was out of bounds... I am sorry

OK, that's cool. Now you boys go back to just calling EACH other names only.


----------



## DiveCon

Bfgrn said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> WOW, that's "special"... did your mother walk in an upright posture?
> 
> 
> 
> so typical
> attacking family members
> that is a violation of the board rules
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're right, that was out of bounds... I am sorry
> 
> OK, that's cool. Now you boys go back to just calling EACH other names only.
Click to expand...

ok
apology accepted


----------



## Annie

This would cause a sea change. Today the Iranian Revolutionary Guard has warned they will crush the protesters, lots of blood already spilled. But with Rafsanjani and Sistani saying the following, there could be a revolution. This is really long, I'm just going to post a bit:

ThreatsWatch.Org: RapidRecon: Regime Change Iran: Movement Seeks to Eliminate 'Supreme Leader' Position



> Regime Change Iran: Movement Seeks to Eliminate 'Supreme Leader' Position
> [Update at Bottom.]
> 
> Folks, this is huge. Huge. A report from Saudi Arabia's al-Arabiya, Iranian clerics seek supreme leader alternative, indicates that Rafsanjani is seeking to eliminate the Supreme Leader. Not just the man, but the position and role presiding over Iranian politics and the Iranian society.
> 
> Religious leaders are considering an alternative to the supreme leader structure after at least 13 people were killed in the latest unrest to shake Tehran and family members of Ayatollah Rafsanjani were arrested amid calls by former President Mohammad Khatami for the release of all protesters.
> 
> Iran's religious clerks in Qom and members of the Assembly of Experts, headed by former President Mahmoud Ahmedinejad, are mulling the formation of an alternative collective leadership to replace that of the supreme leader, sources in Qom told Al Arabiya on condition of anonymity.
> 
> Skipping down a bit, here's what they seem to have in mind, obviously a bit sketchy at this point.
> 
> Members of the assembly are reportedly considering forming a collective ruling body and scrapping the model of Ayatollah Khomeini as a way out of the civil crisis that has engulfed Tehran in a series of protests,
> 
> The discussions have taken place in a series of secret meetings convened in the holy city of Qom and included Jawad al-Shahristani, the supreme representative of Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, who is the foremost Shiite leader in Iraq.
> 
> An option being considered is the resignation of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as Iran's president following condemnation by the United States and other European nations for violence and human rights violations against unarmed protestors.
> 
> This is a huge development. *One of the biggest questions I and others have had since the Iranian protests/revolt/revolution began was whether Mousavi would be any different in tangible effect (Hizballah & Hamas support, etc.) than Ahmadinejad and whether Rafsanjani was seeking to sack 'Supreme' Leader Khamenei simply to acquire the powerful position for himself. That question perhaps may have been answered today.
> 
> My ears first perked up when word made it through the grapevines over the weekend that Rafsanjani had been meeting with other Ayatollahs and clerics in Qom, and had among them a representative of Iraq's Ayatollah Ali Sistani.*
> 
> Why? Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani in 2007 made two very critical statements: that "I am a servant of all Iraqis, there is no difference between a Sunni, a Shiite or a Kurd or a Christian," and that Islam can exist within a democracy without theological conflict. You will never hear such words slip past the lips of Iran's Ayatollah Khamenei. Ever....


----------



## jillian

DiveCon said:


> and i'm not your "friend" special or otherwise
> i wouldnt cross the street to piss on you if you were on fire



say what you really think, DC.


----------



## Bfgrn

Annie said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Irony...
> 
> Progressives in Iran take to the streets to protest oppression and the status quo...conservatives in Iran support the authoritarian regime and chant "death to America"...
> 
> Conservatives in America defend progressives right to protest in Iran...just not in America...then they're called lawless dissidents and UN American ...
> 
> Conservatism is based on latitude, longitude and date of birth.
> *Bfgrn*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really?
> 
> http://www.usmessageboard.com/curre...hould-the-us-approach-iran-2.html#post1288948
Click to expand...


Your "letter's" pretext...

"This may help clarify matters for those who wonder what the Iranian dissidents want. I posted it on my blog a while ago. As I said on my blog, we are all getting various things whose authenticity requires skepticism. I'm confident of the channel  a person who is directly in contact with Mousavi and his people  but I can't swear this has been approved by Mousavi himself. Still, *I do think it reflects the state of mind of his people. *Notice that it doesn't bear his signature;  it's from "the office."
Michael Ledeen

Who is Michael Ledeen?

_From "creative destruction" to "total war," the guiding beliefs of the most aggressive foreign policymakers in the Bush administration may originate in the works of an influential yet rarely seen neoconservative._

Most Americans have never heard of Michael Ledeen, but if the United States ends up in an extended shooting war throughout the Middle East, it will be largely due to his inspiration.
http://www.alternet.org/story/15860/

YOU are not very smart Annie; but I'm sure Ledeen soothes your pea brain dogma....


----------



## Annie

Bfgrn said:


> Annie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Irony...
> 
> Progressives in Iran take to the streets to protest oppression and the status quo...conservatives in Iran support the authoritarian regime and chant "death to America"...
> 
> Conservatives in America defend progressives right to protest in Iran...just not in America...then they're called lawless dissidents and UN American ...
> 
> Conservatism is based on latitude, longitude and date of birth.
> *Bfgrn*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really?
> 
> http://www.usmessageboard.com/curre...hould-the-us-approach-iran-2.html#post1288948
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your "letter's" pretext...
> 
> "This may help clarify matters for those who wonder what the Iranian dissidents want. I posted it on my blog a while ago. As I said on my blog, we are all getting various things whose authenticity requires skepticism. I'm confident of the channel  a person who is directly in contact with Mousavi and his people  but I can't swear this has been approved by Mousavi himself. Still, *I do think it reflects the state of mind of his people. *Notice that it doesn't bear his signature;  it's from "the office."
> Michael Ledeen
> 
> Who is Michael Ledeen?
> 
> _From "creative destruction" to "total war," the guiding beliefs of the most aggressive foreign policymakers in the Bush administration may originate in the works of an influential yet rarely seen neoconservative._
> 
> Most Americans have never heard of Michael Ledeen, but if the United States ends up in an extended shooting war throughout the Middle East, it will be largely due to his inspiration.
> http://www.alternet.org/story/15860/
> 
> YOU are not very smart Annie; but I'm sure Ledeen soothes your pea brain dogma....
Click to expand...


For some reason your evaluation of my critical thinking skills doesn't quite hit me the way other's opinions might, first off, at least I know how to link back to a post in an honest way. You on the other hand, do not. Correct link to my post:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/curre...hould-the-us-approach-iran-3.html#post1289559

However, your post primary purpose seems to be to criticize Ledeen, using Alter-net link. No agenda there, right?  Even if his credentials were not 'up to your rigorous standards',  in this case wouldn't really matter, as the purpose of his entry was informative, not substantive. He goes out of his was to include the caveats necessary to the reader; however it seems you failed to understand those key phrases, so I highlighted them:

What Does Mousavi Think? - Michael Ledeen - The Corner on National Review Online



> What Does Mousavi Think?   [Michael Ledeen]
> This* may help* clarify matters for those who wonder what the Iranian dissidents want. I posted it on my blog a while ago. As I said on my blog,* we are all getting various things whose authenticity requires skepticism. I'm confident of the channel  a person who is directly in contact with Mousavi and his people  but I can't swear this has been approved by Mousavi himself*. Still, I do think it reflects the state of mind of his people. *Notice that it doesn't bear his signature;  it's from "the office."*
> 
> From  the Office of Mr. Mir Hossein Mousavi
> 
> To the President of the USA, Mr. Barack Hussein Obama:
> 
> Dear Mr. President,
> 
> In the name of  the Iranian people, we want you to know that when you recently made the statement "Achmadinejad or Mousavi? Two of a kind, we consider this as a grave and deep insult, not just to Mr. Mousavi but especially against the judgment of the Iranian people, against our moral conviction and intelligence, especially those of the young generation that comprises a population of 31 million.
> 
> It is a specially grave insult for those who are now fighting for democracy and freedom, and an unwarranted gift and even praise for Mr. Khamenei, whose security forces are now killing peaceful Iranians in the streets of every major city in the country.
> 
> Your statement misled the people of the world.  It was no doubt inspired by your hope for dialogue with this regime, but you cannot possibly believe in promises from a regime that lies to its own people and then kills them when they demand the promises be kept.
> 
> By such statements, your administration and you discourage the Iranian people, who believe and trust in the values of democracy and freedom.  We are pleased to see that you have condemned the regimes murderous violence, and we look forward to stronger support for the rightful struggle of the Iranian people against the actions of a regime that is your enemy as well as ours.
> 
> 06/20 11:26 PM​


​


----------



## editec

Xenophon said:


> But you are wrong, China changed radically after that.


 
Did it?

Or did we just learn to accept it since their master-class and our master-class are making so damned much money working together?


----------



## Bfgrn

Annie said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Annie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Really?
> 
> http://www.usmessageboard.com/curre...hould-the-us-approach-iran-2.html#post1288948
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your "letter's" pretext...
> 
> "This may help clarify matters for those who wonder what the Iranian dissidents want. I posted it on my blog a while ago. As I said on my blog, we are all getting various things whose authenticity requires skepticism. I'm confident of the channel  a person who is directly in contact with Mousavi and his people  but I can't swear this has been approved by Mousavi himself. Still, *I do think it reflects the state of mind of his people. *Notice that it doesn't bear his signature;  it's from "the office."
> Michael Ledeen
> 
> Who is Michael Ledeen?
> 
> _From "creative destruction" to "total war," the guiding beliefs of the most aggressive foreign policymakers in the Bush administration may originate in the works of an influential yet rarely seen neoconservative._
> 
> Most Americans have never heard of Michael Ledeen, but if the United States ends up in an extended shooting war throughout the Middle East, it will be largely due to his inspiration.
> http://www.alternet.org/story/15860/
> 
> YOU are not very smart Annie; but I'm sure Ledeen soothes your pea brain dogma....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> For some reason your evaluation of my critical thinking skills doesn't quite hit me the way other's opinions might, first off, at least I know how to link back to a post in an honest way. You on the other hand, do not. Correct link to my post:
> 
> http://www.usmessageboard.com/curre...hould-the-us-approach-iran-3.html#post1289559
> 
> However, your post primary purpose seems to be to criticize Ledeen, using Alter-net link. No agenda there, right?  Even if his credentials were not 'up to your rigorous standards',  in this case wouldn't really matter, as the purpose of his entry was informative, not substantive. He goes out of his was to include the caveats necessary to the reader; however it seems you failed to understand those key phrases, so I highlighted them:
> 
> What Does Mousavi Think? - Michael Ledeen - The Corner on National Review Online
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What Does Mousavi Think?   [Michael Ledeen]
> This* may help* clarify matters for those who wonder what the Iranian dissidents want. I posted it on my blog a while ago. As I said on my blog,* we are all getting various things whose authenticity requires skepticism. I'm confident of the channel  a person who is directly in contact with Mousavi and his people  but I can't swear this has been approved by Mousavi himself*. Still, I do think it reflects the state of mind of his people. *Notice that it doesn't bear his signature;  it's from "the office."*
> 
> From  the Office of Mr. Mir Hossein Mousavi
> 
> To the President of the USA, Mr. Barack Hussein Obama:
> 
> Dear Mr. President,
> 
> In the name of  the Iranian people, we want you to know that when you recently made the statement "Achmadinejad or Mousavi? Two of a kind, we consider this as a grave and deep insult, not just to Mr. Mousavi but especially against the judgment of the Iranian people, against our moral conviction and intelligence, especially those of the young generation that comprises a population of 31 million.
> 
> It is a specially grave insult for those who are now fighting for democracy and freedom, and an unwarranted gift and even praise for Mr. Khamenei, whose security forces are now killing peaceful Iranians in the streets of every major city in the country.
> 
> Your statement misled the people of the world.  It was no doubt inspired by your hope for dialogue with this regime, but you cannot possibly believe in promises from a regime that lies to its own people and then kills them when they demand the promises be kept.
> 
> By such statements, your administration and you discourage the Iranian people, who believe and trust in the values of democracy and freedom.  We are pleased to see that you have condemned the regimes murderous violence, and we look forward to stronger support for the rightful struggle of the Iranian people against the actions of a regime that is your enemy as well as ours.
> 
> 06/20 11:26 PM​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ​
Click to expand...


There is no debate concerning your "critical thinking skills"...you ARE a right wing PEA brain...IF Michael Ledeen really considered the "caveats" of the letter, he would NOT have posted it on his blog...

Micheal Ledeen...neoconservative and a Jew...

From "creative destruction" to "total war," the guiding beliefs of *the most aggressive foreign policymakers in the Bush administration* may originate in the works of an influential yet rarely seen neoconservative.

Most Americans have never heard of Michael Ledeen, but* if the United States ends up in an extended shooting war throughout the Middle East, it will be largely due to his inspiration.*

YOUR critical thinking skills lead you to follow the neocons??? And then you question a critic's AGENDA!!!

AGENDA
The neocons who pushed Clinton for military intervention in the Middle East BEFORE 911...
AGENDA
The neocons who convinced Bush to invade Iraq after their "Pearl Harbor" moment; 911...
AGENDA
The neocons who's allegiance to Israel causes them to call anyone who questions their beliefs antisemitic...ask General Anthony Zinni....From 1997 to 2000, Zinni was commander-in-chief of the United States Central Command, in charge of all American troops in the Middle East.
AGENDA
And not just ANY neocon...Michael Ledeen...*the most aggressive foreign policymakers in the Bush administration*

There is ONLY ONE key sentence in Ledeen's "caveats"...*I do think it reflects the state of mind of his people*

NO, it reflects YOUR state of mind and your AGENDA Mr.Ledeen...warmonger and agent for Israel...

_Zinni is talking about a group of policymakers within the administration known as "the neo-conservatives" who saw the invasion of Iraq as a way to stabilize American interests in the region and strengthen the position of Israel. They include Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz; Undersecretary of Defense Douglas Feith; Former Defense Policy Board member Richard Perle; National Security Council member Eliot Abrams; and Vice President Cheney's chief of staff, Lewis "Scooter" Libby.

Zinni believes they are political ideologues who have hijacked American policy in Iraq.

I think it's the worst kept secret in Washington. That everybody - everybody I talk to in Washington has known and fully knows what their *agenda* was and what they were trying to do, says Zinni.

And one article, because I mentioned the neo-conservatives who describe themselves as neo-conservatives, I was called anti-Semitic. I mean, you know, unbelievable that that's the kind of personal attacks that are run when you criticize a strategy and those who propose it. I certainly didn't criticize who they were. I certainly don't know what their ethnic religious backgrounds are. And I'm not interested._


----------



## Annie

Bfgrn said:


> Annie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your "letter's" pretext...
> 
> "This may help clarify matters for those who wonder what the Iranian dissidents want. I posted it on my blog a while ago. As I said on my blog, we are all getting various things whose authenticity requires skepticism. I'm confident of the channel  a person who is directly in contact with Mousavi and his people  but I can't swear this has been approved by Mousavi himself. Still, *I do think it reflects the state of mind of his people. *Notice that it doesn't bear his signature;  it's from "the office."
> Michael Ledeen
> 
> Who is Michael Ledeen?
> 
> _From "creative destruction" to "total war," the guiding beliefs of the most aggressive foreign policymakers in the Bush administration may originate in the works of an influential yet rarely seen neoconservative._
> 
> Most Americans have never heard of Michael Ledeen, but if the United States ends up in an extended shooting war throughout the Middle East, it will be largely due to his inspiration.
> http://www.alternet.org/story/15860/
> 
> YOU are not very smart Annie; but I'm sure Ledeen soothes your pea brain dogma....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For some reason your evaluation of my critical thinking skills doesn't quite hit me the way other's opinions might, first off, at least I know how to link back to a post in an honest way. You on the other hand, do not. Correct link to my post:
> 
> http://www.usmessageboard.com/curre...hould-the-us-approach-iran-3.html#post1289559
> 
> However, your post primary purpose seems to be to criticize Ledeen, using Alter-net link. No agenda there, right?  Even if his credentials were not 'up to your rigorous standards',  in this case wouldn't really matter, as the purpose of his entry was informative, not substantive. He goes out of his was to include the caveats necessary to the reader; however it seems you failed to understand those key phrases, so I highlighted them:
> 
> What Does Mousavi Think? - Michael Ledeen - The Corner on National Review Online
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What Does Mousavi Think?   [Michael Ledeen]
> This* may help* clarify matters for those who wonder what the Iranian dissidents want. I posted it on my blog a while ago. As I said on my blog,* we are all getting various things whose authenticity requires skepticism. I'm confident of the channel  a person who is directly in contact with Mousavi and his people  but I can't swear this has been approved by Mousavi himself*. Still, I do think it reflects the state of mind of his people. *Notice that it doesn't bear his signature;  it's from "the office."*
> 
> From  the Office of Mr. Mir Hossein Mousavi
> 
> To the President of the USA, Mr. Barack Hussein Obama:
> 
> Dear Mr. President,
> 
> In the name of  the Iranian people, we want you to know that when you recently made the statement "Achmadinejad or Mousavi? Two of a kind, we consider this as a grave and deep insult, not just to Mr. Mousavi but especially against the judgment of the Iranian people, against our moral conviction and intelligence, especially those of the young generation that comprises a population of 31 million.
> 
> It is a specially grave insult for those who are now fighting for democracy and freedom, and an unwarranted gift and even praise for Mr. Khamenei, whose security forces are now killing peaceful Iranians in the streets of every major city in the country.
> 
> Your statement misled the people of the world.  It was no doubt inspired by your hope for dialogue with this regime, but you cannot possibly believe in promises from a regime that lies to its own people and then kills them when they demand the promises be kept.
> 
> By such statements, your administration and you discourage the Iranian people, who believe and trust in the values of democracy and freedom.  We are pleased to see that you have condemned the regimes murderous violence, and we look forward to stronger support for the rightful struggle of the Iranian people against the actions of a regime that is your enemy as well as ours.
> 
> 06/20 11:26 PM​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> There is no debate concerning your "critical thinking skills"...you ARE a right wing PEA brain...IF Michael Ledeen really considered the "caveats" of the letter, he would NOT have posted it on his blog...
> 
> Micheal Ledeen...neoconservative and a Jew...
> 
> From "creative destruction" to "total war," the guiding beliefs of *the most aggressive foreign policymakers in the Bush administration* may originate in the works of an influential yet rarely seen neoconservative.
> 
> Most Americans have never heard of Michael Ledeen, but* if the United States ends up in an extended shooting war throughout the Middle East, it will be largely due to his inspiration.*
> 
> YOUR critical thinking skills lead you to follow the neocons??? And then you question a critic's AGENDA!!!
> 
> AGENDA
> The neocons who pushed Clinton for military intervention in the Middle East BEFORE 911...
> AGENDA
> The neocons who convinced Bush to invade Iraq after their "Pearl Harbor" moment; 911...
> AGENDA
> The neocons who's allegiance to Israel causes them to call anyone who questions their beliefs antisemitic...ask General Anthony Zinni....From 1997 to 2000, Zinni was commander-in-chief of the United States Central Command, in charge of all American troops in the Middle East.
> AGENDA
> And not just ANY neocon...Michael Ledeen...*the most aggressive foreign policymakers in the Bush administration*
> 
> There is ONLY ONE key sentence in Ledeen's "caveats"...*I do think it reflects the state of mind of his people*
> 
> NO, it reflects YOUR state of mind and your AGENDA Mr.Ledeen...warmonger and agent for Israel...
> 
> _Zinni is talking about a group of policymakers within the administration known as "the neo-conservatives" who saw the invasion of Iraq as a way to stabilize American interests in the region and strengthen the position of Israel. They include Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz; Undersecretary of Defense Douglas Feith; Former Defense Policy Board member Richard Perle; National Security Council member Eliot Abrams; and Vice President Cheney's chief of staff, Lewis "Scooter" Libby.
> 
> Zinni believes they are political ideologues who have hijacked American policy in Iraq.
> 
> I think it's the worst kept secret in Washington. That everybody - everybody I talk to in Washington has known and fully knows what their *agenda* was and what they were trying to do, says Zinni.
> 
> And one article, because I mentioned the neo-conservatives who describe themselves as neo-conservatives, I was called anti-Semitic. I mean, you know, unbelievable that that's the kind of personal attacks that are run when you criticize a strategy and those who propose it. I certainly didn't criticize who they were. I certainly don't know what their ethnic religious backgrounds are. And I'm not interested._
Click to expand...


You're correct, no 'debate' is possible with someone of your ilk who's only purpose appears to be to deflect any reasonable arguments with lies and straw men. "Pea brain" must be your medical diagnosis? LOL! That term would be a compliment to your abilities. Left wing tool would also be an overstatement, for it would reflect competency at what you appear to be attempting, but you fail. Big time.


----------



## Bfgrn

Annie said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Annie said:
> 
> 
> 
> For some reason your evaluation of my critical thinking skills doesn't quite hit me the way other's opinions might, first off, at least I know how to link back to a post in an honest way. You on the other hand, do not. Correct link to my post:
> 
> http://www.usmessageboard.com/curre...hould-the-us-approach-iran-3.html#post1289559
> 
> However, your post primary purpose seems to be to criticize Ledeen, using Alter-net link. No agenda there, right?  Even if his credentials were not 'up to your rigorous standards',  in this case wouldn't really matter, as the purpose of his entry was informative, not substantive. He goes out of his was to include the caveats necessary to the reader; however it seems you failed to understand those key phrases, so I highlighted them:
> 
> What Does Mousavi Think? - Michael Ledeen - The Corner on National Review Online
> 
> 
> [/INDENT]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no debate concerning your "critical thinking skills"...you ARE a right wing PEA brain...IF Michael Ledeen really considered the "caveats" of the letter, he would NOT have posted it on his blog...
> 
> Micheal Ledeen...neoconservative and a Jew...
> 
> From "creative destruction" to "total war," the guiding beliefs of *the most aggressive foreign policymakers in the Bush administration* may originate in the works of an influential yet rarely seen neoconservative.
> 
> Most Americans have never heard of Michael Ledeen, but* if the United States ends up in an extended shooting war throughout the Middle East, it will be largely due to his inspiration.*
> 
> YOUR critical thinking skills lead you to follow the neocons??? And then you question a critic's AGENDA!!!
> 
> AGENDA
> The neocons who pushed Clinton for military intervention in the Middle East BEFORE 911...
> AGENDA
> The neocons who convinced Bush to invade Iraq after their "Pearl Harbor" moment; 911...
> AGENDA
> The neocons who's allegiance to Israel causes them to call anyone who questions their beliefs antisemitic...ask General Anthony Zinni....From 1997 to 2000, Zinni was commander-in-chief of the United States Central Command, in charge of all American troops in the Middle East.
> AGENDA
> And not just ANY neocon...Michael Ledeen...*the most aggressive foreign policymakers in the Bush administration*
> 
> There is ONLY ONE key sentence in Ledeen's "caveats"...*I do think it reflects the state of mind of his people*
> 
> NO, it reflects YOUR state of mind and your AGENDA Mr.Ledeen...warmonger and agent for Israel...
> 
> _Zinni is talking about a group of policymakers within the administration known as "the neo-conservatives" who saw the invasion of Iraq as a way to stabilize American interests in the region and strengthen the position of Israel. They include Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz; Undersecretary of Defense Douglas Feith; Former Defense Policy Board member Richard Perle; National Security Council member Eliot Abrams; and Vice President Cheney's chief of staff, Lewis "Scooter" Libby.
> 
> Zinni believes they are political ideologues who have hijacked American policy in Iraq.
> 
> I think it's the worst kept secret in Washington. That everybody - everybody I talk to in Washington has known and fully knows what their *agenda* was and what they were trying to do, says Zinni.
> 
> And one article, because I mentioned the neo-conservatives who describe themselves as neo-conservatives, I was called anti-Semitic. I mean, you know, unbelievable that that's the kind of personal attacks that are run when you criticize a strategy and those who propose it. I certainly didn't criticize who they were. I certainly don't know what their ethnic religious backgrounds are. And I'm not interested._
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're correct, no 'debate' is possible with someone of your ilk who's only purpose appears to be to deflect any reasonable arguments with lies and straw men. "Pea brain" must be your medical diagnosis? LOL! That term would be a compliment to your abilities. Left wing tool would also be an overstatement, for it would reflect competency at what you appear to be attempting, but you fail. Big time.
Click to expand...


REASONABLE argument? OK, here's a few for you to "think" about... 

There's one common belief shared by most Iranians ..."America is an evil imperial empire". It has permeated that society for almost 60 years...

SO, there is only ONE possible excuse Ayatollah Ali Khamenei and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad can use to justify killing, beating and jailing the people of their own country... "They are NOT Iranians, they are agents of America, the evil imperial empire...

AND YOU want President Obama to give Ayatollah Ali Khamenei and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad ALL the ammunition and PROOF they are desperate for?

IF you TRULY stand with the protesters in Iran; shut the fuck up OR buy a plane ticket to Iran and literally STAND with the protesters that you seek to bring hatred of America's wrath upon!!!   

IF Iran had come out before the election and said they support Obama over McCain for president, what would YOUR response be...oh, then I should vote for Obama too, OR Obama is a puppet for Iran?

You may be able to think; you just can't think in ANY way that isn't selfish...

Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live; it is asking others to live as one wishes to live.
_Oscar Wilde_


----------



## Annie

Bfgrn said:


> Annie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is no debate concerning your "critical thinking skills"...you ARE a right wing PEA brain...IF Michael Ledeen really considered the "caveats" of the letter, he would NOT have posted it on his blog...
> 
> Micheal Ledeen...neoconservative and a Jew...
> 
> From "creative destruction" to "total war," the guiding beliefs of *the most aggressive foreign policymakers in the Bush administration* may originate in the works of an influential yet rarely seen neoconservative.
> 
> Most Americans have never heard of Michael Ledeen, but* if the United States ends up in an extended shooting war throughout the Middle East, it will be largely due to his inspiration.*
> 
> YOUR critical thinking skills lead you to follow the neocons??? And then you question a critic's AGENDA!!!
> 
> AGENDA
> The neocons who pushed Clinton for military intervention in the Middle East BEFORE 911...
> AGENDA
> The neocons who convinced Bush to invade Iraq after their "Pearl Harbor" moment; 911...
> AGENDA
> The neocons who's allegiance to Israel causes them to call anyone who questions their beliefs antisemitic...ask General Anthony Zinni....From 1997 to 2000, Zinni was commander-in-chief of the United States Central Command, in charge of all American troops in the Middle East.
> AGENDA
> And not just ANY neocon...Michael Ledeen...*the most aggressive foreign policymakers in the Bush administration*
> 
> There is ONLY ONE key sentence in Ledeen's "caveats"...*I do think it reflects the state of mind of his people*
> 
> NO, it reflects YOUR state of mind and your AGENDA Mr.Ledeen...warmonger and agent for Israel...
> 
> _Zinni is talking about a group of policymakers within the administration known as "the neo-conservatives" who saw the invasion of Iraq as a way to stabilize American interests in the region and strengthen the position of Israel. They include Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz; Undersecretary of Defense Douglas Feith; Former Defense Policy Board member Richard Perle; National Security Council member Eliot Abrams; and Vice President Cheney's chief of staff, Lewis "Scooter" Libby.
> 
> Zinni believes they are political ideologues who have hijacked American policy in Iraq.
> 
> I think it's the worst kept secret in Washington. That everybody - everybody I talk to in Washington has known and fully knows what their *agenda* was and what they were trying to do, says Zinni.
> 
> And one article, because I mentioned the neo-conservatives who describe themselves as neo-conservatives, I was called anti-Semitic. I mean, you know, unbelievable that that's the kind of personal attacks that are run when you criticize a strategy and those who propose it. I certainly didn't criticize who they were. I certainly don't know what their ethnic religious backgrounds are. And I'm not interested._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're correct, no 'debate' is possible with someone of your ilk who's only purpose appears to be to deflect any reasonable arguments with lies and straw men. "Pea brain" must be your medical diagnosis? LOL! That term would be a compliment to your abilities. Left wing tool would also be an overstatement, for it would reflect competency at what you appear to be attempting, but you fail. Big time.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> REASONABLE argument? OK, here's a few for you to "think" about...
> 
> There's one common belief shared by most Iranians ..."America is an evil imperial empire". It has permeated that society for almost 60 years...
> 
> SO, there is only ONE possible excuse Ayatollah Ali Khamenei and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad can use to justify killing, beating and jailing the people of their own country... "They are NOT Iranians, they are agents of America, the evil imperial empire...
> 
> AND YOU want President Obama to give Ayatollah Ali Khamenei and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad ALL the ammunition and PROOF they are desperate for?
> 
> IF you TRULY stand with the protesters in Iran; shut the fuck up OR buy a plane ticket to Iran and literally STAND with the protesters that you seek to bring hatred of America's wrath upon!!!
> 
> IF Iran had come out before the election and said they support Obama over McCain for president, what would YOUR response be...oh, then I should vote for Obama too, OR Obama is a puppet for Iran?
> 
> You may be able to think; you just can't think in ANY way that isn't selfish...
> 
> Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live; it is asking others to live as one wishes to live.
> _Oscar Wilde_
Click to expand...


Once again, albeit without your normal name calling, you present straw men for others to bat down. You build them on the premise that US is always wrong. The the 'right' should just STFU, which of course is just an attempt to silence dissension, which does make one wonder whether YOU stand with the mullahs or the protesters. 

After post after post of your vacillating between straw men, name calling, and throwing all the crap you can find against the wall, I'm not going to bother with you for a bit. There are too many honest and thoughtful posters, on all points on the political spectrum to interact with you.


----------



## Bfgrn

Annie said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Annie said:
> 
> 
> 
> You're correct, no 'debate' is possible with someone of your ilk who's only purpose appears to be to deflect any reasonable arguments with lies and straw men. "Pea brain" must be your medical diagnosis? LOL! That term would be a compliment to your abilities. Left wing tool would also be an overstatement, for it would reflect competency at what you appear to be attempting, but you fail. Big time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> REASONABLE argument? OK, here's a few for you to "think" about...
> 
> There's one common belief shared by most Iranians ..."America is an evil imperial empire". It has permeated that society for almost 60 years...
> 
> SO, there is only ONE possible excuse Ayatollah Ali Khamenei and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad can use to justify killing, beating and jailing the people of their own country... "They are NOT Iranians, they are agents of America, the evil imperial empire...
> 
> AND YOU want President Obama to give Ayatollah Ali Khamenei and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad ALL the ammunition and PROOF they are desperate for?
> 
> IF you TRULY stand with the protesters in Iran; shut the fuck up OR buy a plane ticket to Iran and literally STAND with the protesters that you seek to bring hatred of America's wrath upon!!!
> 
> IF Iran had come out before the election and said they support Obama over McCain for president, what would YOUR response be...oh, then I should vote for Obama too, OR Obama is a puppet for Iran?
> 
> You may be able to think; you just can't think in ANY way that isn't selfish...
> 
> Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live; it is asking others to live as one wishes to live.
> _Oscar Wilde_
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Once again, albeit without your normal name calling, you present straw men for others to bat down. You build them on the premise that US is always wrong. The the 'right' should just STFU, which of course is just an attempt to silence dissension, which does make one wonder whether YOU stand with the mullahs or the protesters.
> 
> After post after post of your vacillating between straw men, name calling, and throwing all the crap you can find against the wall, I'm not going to bother with you for a bit. There are too many honest and thoughtful posters, on all points on the political spectrum to interact with you.
Click to expand...


Thanks for the PROOF you can't think in ANY way that isn't selfish...Now I understand; this isn't about the protesters in Iran and what THEY want...this is about America, and what YOU want...

Try to get this through your head...it doesn't matter one iota IF America is to blame, it ONLY matters if America is PERCEIVED by the people of Iran to be behind these protests...and while YOU are feeling all patriotic and self righteous, you will be bringing death to people that DON'T want you to interfere!!!

Yes Annie, I think you should cut & run, you're way out of your league and you keep getting your little pea handed to you...


"And we must face the fact that the United States is neither omnipotent or omniscient - that we are only six percent of the world's population - that we cannot impose our will upon the other ninety-four percent of mankind - that we cannot right every wrong or reverse each adversity - and that therefore there cannot be an American solution to every world problem." 
*President John F. Kennedy*


----------



## Gunny

Bfgrn said:


> Annie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> REASONABLE argument? OK, here's a few for you to "think" about...
> 
> There's one common belief shared by most Iranians ..."America is an evil imperial empire". It has permeated that society for almost 60 years...
> 
> SO, there is only ONE possible excuse Ayatollah Ali Khamenei and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad can use to justify killing, beating and jailing the people of their own country... "They are NOT Iranians, they are agents of America, the evil imperial empire...
> 
> AND YOU want President Obama to give Ayatollah Ali Khamenei and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad ALL the ammunition and PROOF they are desperate for?
> 
> IF you TRULY stand with the protesters in Iran; shut the fuck up OR buy a plane ticket to Iran and literally STAND with the protesters that you seek to bring hatred of America's wrath upon!!!
> 
> IF Iran had come out before the election and said they support Obama over McCain for president, what would YOUR response be...oh, then I should vote for Obama too, OR Obama is a puppet for Iran?
> 
> You may be able to think; you just can't think in ANY way that isn't selfish...
> 
> Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live; it is asking others to live as one wishes to live.
> _Oscar Wilde_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Once again, albeit without your normal name calling, you present straw men for others to bat down. You build them on the premise that US is always wrong. The the 'right' should just STFU, which of course is just an attempt to silence dissension, which does make one wonder whether YOU stand with the mullahs or the protesters.
> 
> After post after post of your vacillating between straw men, name calling, and throwing all the crap you can find against the wall, I'm not going to bother with you for a bit. There are too many honest and thoughtful posters, on all points on the political spectrum to interact with you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thanks for the PROOF you can't think in ANY way that isn't selfish...Now I understand; this isn't about the protesters in Iran and what THEY want...this is about America, and what YOU want...
> 
> Try to get this through your head...it doesn't matter one iota IF America is to blame, it ONLY matters if America is PERCEIVED by the people of Iran to be behind these protests...and while YOU are feeling all patriotic and self righteous, you will be bringing death to people that DON'T want you to interfere!!!
> 
> Yes Annie, I think you should cut & run, you're way out of your league and you keep getting your little pea handed to you...
> 
> 
> "And we must face the fact that the United States is neither omnipotent or omniscient - that we are only six percent of the world's population - that we cannot impose our will upon the other ninety-four percent of mankind - that we cannot right every wrong or reverse each adversity - and that therefore there cannot be an American solution to every world problem."
> *President John F. Kennedy*
Click to expand...


Howso?

What you're saying is that you will allow perception to paralyze you into inaction.  It's an interesting dilemma to be sure.  But your answer to it is as worthless as those calling for US armed invasion.


----------



## Annie

Gunny said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Annie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Once again, albeit without your normal name calling, you present straw men for others to bat down. You build them on the premise that US is always wrong. The the 'right' should just STFU, which of course is just an attempt to silence dissension, which does make one wonder whether YOU stand with the mullahs or the protesters.
> 
> After post after post of your vacillating between straw men, name calling, and throwing all the crap you can find against the wall, I'm not going to bother with you for a bit. There are too many honest and thoughtful posters, on all points on the political spectrum to interact with you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the PROOF you can't think in ANY way that isn't selfish...Now I understand; this isn't about the protesters in Iran and what THEY want...this is about America, and what YOU want...
> 
> Try to get this through your head...it doesn't matter one iota IF America is to blame, it ONLY matters if America is PERCEIVED by the people of Iran to be behind these protests...and while YOU are feeling all patriotic and self righteous, you will be bringing death to people that DON'T want you to interfere!!!
> 
> Yes Annie, I think you should cut & run, you're way out of your league and you keep getting your little pea handed to you...
> 
> 
> "And we must face the fact that the United States is neither omnipotent or omniscient - that we are only six percent of the world's population - that we cannot impose our will upon the other ninety-four percent of mankind - that we cannot right every wrong or reverse each adversity - and that therefore there cannot be an American solution to every world problem."
> *President John F. Kennedy*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Howso?
> 
> What you're saying is that you will allow perception to paralyze you into inaction.  It's an interesting dilemma to be sure.  But your answer to it is as worthless *as those calling for US armed invasion.*
Click to expand...


Which of course, I never did!


----------



## Gunny

Annie said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the PROOF you can't think in ANY way that isn't selfish...Now I understand; this isn't about the protesters in Iran and what THEY want...this is about America, and what YOU want...
> 
> Try to get this through your head...it doesn't matter one iota IF America is to blame, it ONLY matters if America is PERCEIVED by the people of Iran to be behind these protests...and while YOU are feeling all patriotic and self righteous, you will be bringing death to people that DON'T want you to interfere!!!
> 
> Yes Annie, I think you should cut & run, you're way out of your league and you keep getting your little pea handed to you...
> 
> 
> "And we must face the fact that the United States is neither omnipotent or omniscient - that we are only six percent of the world's population - that we cannot impose our will upon the other ninety-four percent of mankind - that we cannot right every wrong or reverse each adversity - and that therefore there cannot be an American solution to every world problem."
> *President John F. Kennedy*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Howso?
> 
> What you're saying is that you will allow perception to paralyze you into inaction.  It's an interesting dilemma to be sure.  But your answer to it is as worthless *as those calling for US armed invasion.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which of course, I never did!
Click to expand...


Didn't mean to imply that you did.  I don't recall who exactly was talking such nonsense.  However, completely  ignoring the crap is just as nonsensical.  They're blaming us for it anyway.  They always do.  I'm just surprised we haven't heard from the US "blame the US too" crowd on here.


----------



## Annie

Gunny said:


> Annie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> 
> Howso?
> 
> What you're saying is that you will allow perception to paralyze you into inaction.  It's an interesting dilemma to be sure.  But your answer to it is as worthless *as those calling for US armed invasion.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which of course, I never did!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Didn't mean to imply that you did.  I don't recall who exactly was talking such nonsense.  However, completely  ignoring the crap is just as nonsensical.  They're blaming us for it anyway.  They always do.  I'm just surprised we haven't heard from the US "blame the US too" crowd on here.
Click to expand...


Careful Gunny, he may be forced to call you a name or something. Arguments?  A little short on that.


----------



## Bfgrn

Gunny said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Annie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Once again, albeit without your normal name calling, you present straw men for others to bat down. You build them on the premise that US is always wrong. The the 'right' should just STFU, which of course is just an attempt to silence dissension, which does make one wonder whether YOU stand with the mullahs or the protesters.
> 
> After post after post of your vacillating between straw men, name calling, and throwing all the crap you can find against the wall, I'm not going to bother with you for a bit. There are too many honest and thoughtful posters, on all points on the political spectrum to interact with you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the PROOF you can't think in ANY way that isn't selfish...Now I understand; this isn't about the protesters in Iran and what THEY want...this is about America, and what YOU want...
> 
> Try to get this through your head...it doesn't matter one iota IF America is to blame, it ONLY matters if America is PERCEIVED by the people of Iran to be behind these protests...and while YOU are feeling all patriotic and self righteous, you will be bringing death to people that DON'T want you to interfere!!!
> 
> Yes Annie, I think you should cut & run, you're way out of your league and you keep getting your little pea handed to you...
> 
> 
> "And we must face the fact that the United States is neither omnipotent or omniscient - that we are only six percent of the world's population - that we cannot impose our will upon the other ninety-four percent of mankind - that we cannot right every wrong or reverse each adversity - and that therefore there cannot be an American solution to every world problem."
> *President John F. Kennedy*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Howso?
> 
> What you're saying is that you will allow perception to paralyze you into inaction.  It's an interesting dilemma to be sure.  But your answer to it is as worthless as those calling for US armed invasion.
Click to expand...


"allow perception to paralyze you into inaction"... So what you're really saying Gunny; there must BE action...America MUST interfere in another country's election, politics and their choices...On WHOSE behalf?

WHAT would you have the President say?
WHAT would you have the President do?
Lay it OUT...


----------



## DiveCon

Bfgrn said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the PROOF you can't think in ANY way that isn't selfish...Now I understand; this isn't about the protesters in Iran and what THEY want...this is about America, and what YOU want...
> 
> Try to get this through your head...it doesn't matter one iota IF America is to blame, it ONLY matters if America is PERCEIVED by the people of Iran to be behind these protests...and while YOU are feeling all patriotic and self righteous, you will be bringing death to people that DON'T want you to interfere!!!
> 
> Yes Annie, I think you should cut & run, you're way out of your league and you keep getting your little pea handed to you...
> 
> 
> "And we must face the fact that the United States is neither omnipotent or omniscient - that we are only six percent of the world's population - that we cannot impose our will upon the other ninety-four percent of mankind - that we cannot right every wrong or reverse each adversity - and that therefore there cannot be an American solution to every world problem."
> *President John F. Kennedy*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Howso?
> 
> What you're saying is that you will allow perception to paralyze you into inaction.  It's an interesting dilemma to be sure.  But your answer to it is as worthless as those calling for US armed invasion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "allow perception to paralyze you into inaction"... So what you're really saying Gunny; there must BE action...America MUST interfere in another country's election, politics and their choices...On WHOSE behalf?
> 
> WHAT would you have the President say?
> WHAT would you have the President do?
> Lay it OUT...
Click to expand...

no, that isnt what he said at all

then you wonder why MOST people think you are a fucking moron


----------



## Bfgrn

DiveCon said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> 
> Howso?
> 
> What you're saying is that you will allow perception to paralyze you into inaction.  It's an interesting dilemma to be sure.  But your answer to it is as worthless as those calling for US armed invasion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "allow perception to paralyze you into inaction"... So what you're really saying Gunny; there must BE action...America MUST interfere in another country's election, politics and their choices...On WHOSE behalf?
> 
> WHAT would you have the President say?
> WHAT would you have the President do?
> Lay it OUT...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> no, that isnt what he said at all
> 
> then you wonder why MOST people think you are a fucking moron
Click to expand...


It IS what he implied...notice he didn't answer?

A) I KNOW I am not a moron...
B) I don't wonder what MOST people think...
C) YOU don't speak for "most people", you speak only for YOU.
D) I don't CARE what anyone thinks, I voice my opinions based on intelligence, research, facts, my years of experience and reality...
E) What a pea brain like you "thinks" is below what my 3 dogs think, at LEAST they have instincts (and personalities, another strike against you)
F) Your cognitive grade...

"I think its just crazy. It's part of that worldview that led us to where we are. Think about it. The United States went and negotiated with and supported Saddam Hussein himself against Iran under this notion that sometimes my enemy is my friend. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. That emboldened Saddam Hussein and allowed him to invade Kuwait. It made us go to war that we did not finish and did not take Saddam Hussein out."
Former Rep. Tom DeLay (R-Texas) 12/11/06 (The Hill)


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## DiveCon

Bfgrn said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> "allow perception to paralyze you into inaction"... So what you're really saying Gunny; there must BE action...America MUST interfere in another country's election, politics and their choices...On WHOSE behalf?
> 
> WHAT would you have the President say?
> WHAT would you have the President do?
> Lay it OUT...
> 
> 
> 
> no, that isnt what he said at all
> 
> then you wonder why MOST people think you are a fucking moron
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It IS what he implied...notice he didn't answer?
> 
> A) I KNOW I am not a moron...
> 
> <deleted moronic bullshit>
Click to expand...

would a moron actually be able to know they were a moron :think:


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## DiveCon

and why is it morons always think if they post a quote from someone else, that it makes their moronic bullshit more credible?


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## Annie

DiveCon said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> 
> Howso?
> 
> What you're saying is that you will allow perception to paralyze you into inaction.  It's an interesting dilemma to be sure.  But your answer to it is as worthless as those calling for US armed invasion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "allow perception to paralyze you into inaction"... So what you're really saying Gunny; there must BE action...America MUST interfere in another country's election, politics and their choices...On WHOSE behalf?
> 
> WHAT would you have the President say?
> WHAT would you have the President do?
> Lay it OUT...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> no, that isnt what he said at all
> 
> then you wonder why MOST people think you are a fucking moron
Click to expand...


Think?


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## Bfgrn

DiveCon said:


> would a moron actually be able to know they were a moron :think:
> 
> and why is it morons always think if they post a quote from someone else, that it makes their moronic bullshit more credible?



1) What is a moron. 
"Moron" was coined in 1910 by psychologist Henry H. Goddard from the Greek word moros, which meant "dull" (as opposed to "sharp"), and used to describe a person with a mental age located between 8 and 12 on the Binet scale. It was once applied to people with an IQ of 51-70, being superior in one degree to "imbecile" (IQ of 26-50) and superior in two degrees to "idiot" (IQ of 0-25). wiki

2) What would be the cognitive traits of a moron?
Someone that exhibits no capability to structure thoughts in paragraph or essay form. A moron is only capable of obnoxious one sentence venom and anger that has no purpose but lashing out and spewing venom...

3) THAT would be YOU...

4) Why is it that a moron has set ideas based on fear or dogma, and that moron is totally obtuse to words of wisdom or irony from credible figures from history?

5) Because he/she/it IS a moron...YOU (refer to #3)



The angry people are those people who are most afraid.
_Dr. Robert Anthony_


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## chanel

The "Blame US crowd" is in the conspiracy section.  Someone posted that the CIA spent millions to influence the election or something.


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## Annie

chanel said:


> The "Blame US crowd" is in the conspiracy section.  Someone posted that the CIA spent millions to influence the election or something.



Some of us wish. Truth is, plenty think they have news.


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## DiveCon

Bfgrn said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> would a moron actually be able to know they were a moron :think:
> 
> and why is it morons always think if they post a quote from someone else, that it makes their moronic bullshit more credible?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1) What is a moron.
> "Moron" was coined in 1910 by psychologist Henry H. Goddard from the Greek word moros, which meant "dull" (as opposed to "sharp"), and used to describe a person with a mental age located between 8 and 12 on the Binet scale. It was once applied to people with an IQ of 51-70, being superior in one degree to "imbecile" (IQ of 26-50) and superior in two degrees to "idiot" (IQ of 0-25). wiki
> 
> 2) What would be the cognitive traits of a moron?
> Someone that exhibits no capability to structure thoughts in paragraph or essay form. A moron is only capable of obnoxious one sentence venom and anger that has no purpose but lashing out and spewing venom...
> 
> 3) THAT would be YOU...
> 
> 4) Why is it that a moron has set ideas based on fear or dogma, and that moron is totally obtuse to words of wisdom or irony from credible figures from history?
> 
> 5) Because he/she/it IS a moron...YOU (refer to #3)
> 
> 
> 
> The angry people are those people who are most afraid.
> _Dr. Robert Anthony_
Click to expand...

wow, what a fucking moron you are


----------



## Bfgrn

DiveCon said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> would a moron actually be able to know they were a moron :think:
> 
> and why is it morons always think if they post a quote from someone else, that it makes their moronic bullshit more credible?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1) What is a moron.
> "Moron" was coined in 1910 by psychologist Henry H. Goddard from the Greek word moros, which meant "dull" (as opposed to "sharp"), and used to describe a person with a mental age located between 8 and 12 on the Binet scale. It was once applied to people with an IQ of 51-70, being superior in one degree to "imbecile" (IQ of 26-50) and superior in two degrees to "idiot" (IQ of 0-25). wiki
> 
> 2) What would be the cognitive traits of a moron?
> Someone that exhibits no capability to structure thoughts in paragraph or essay form. *A moron is only capable of obnoxious one sentence venom and anger that has no purpose but lashing out and spewing venom...*
> 
> 3) THAT would be YOU...
> 
> 4) Why is it that a moron has set ideas based on fear or dogma, and that moron is totally obtuse to words of wisdom or irony from credible figures from history?
> 
> 5) Because he/she/it IS a moron...YOU (refer to #3)
> 
> 
> 
> The angry people are those people who are most afraid.
> _Dr. Robert Anthony_
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> wow, what a fucking moron you are
Click to expand...


2) A moron is only capable of obnoxious one sentence venom and anger that has no purpose but lashing out and spewing venom...

I rest my case...LMAO!!!


----------



## DiveCon

Bfgrn said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1) What is a moron.
> "Moron" was coined in 1910 by psychologist Henry H. Goddard from the Greek word moros, which meant "dull" (as opposed to "sharp"), and used to describe a person with a mental age located between 8 and 12 on the Binet scale. It was once applied to people with an IQ of 51-70, being superior in one degree to "imbecile" (IQ of 26-50) and superior in two degrees to "idiot" (IQ of 0-25). wiki
> 
> 2) What would be the cognitive traits of a moron?
> Someone that exhibits no capability to structure thoughts in paragraph or essay form. *A moron is only capable of obnoxious one sentence venom and anger that has no purpose but lashing out and spewing venom...*
> 
> 3) THAT would be YOU...
> 
> 4) Why is it that a moron has set ideas based on fear or dogma, and that moron is totally obtuse to words of wisdom or irony from credible figures from history?
> 
> 5) Because he/she/it IS a moron...YOU (refer to #3)
> 
> 
> 
> The angry people are those people who are most afraid.
> _Dr. Robert Anthony_
> 
> 
> 
> wow, what a fucking moron you are
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 2) A moron is only capable of obnoxious one sentence venom and anger that has no purpose but lashing out and spewing venom...
> 
> I rest my case...LMAO!!!
Click to expand...

you totally fabricate a definition and then rest your case on that defintion???
LOL THAT is a fucking MORON 

asshole

btw, there was ZERO anger in that post
that is why you are seen by so many as nothing but an idiot


----------



## Bfgrn

DiveCon said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> wow, what a fucking moron you are
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2) A moron is only capable of obnoxious one sentence venom and anger that has no purpose but lashing out and spewing venom...
> 
> I rest my case...LMAO!!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> you totally fabricate a definition and then rest your case on that defintion???
> LOL THAT is a fucking MORON
> 
> asshole
> 
> btw, there was ZERO anger in that post
> that is why you are seen by so many as nothing but an idiot
Click to expand...



I totally fabricated a definition of moron, using an encyclopedia. Hey prove me wrong pea brain, let me see a paragraph from you.


----------



## DiveCon

Bfgrn said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 2) A moron is only capable of obnoxious one sentence venom and anger that has no purpose but lashing out and spewing venom...
> 
> I rest my case...LMAO!!!
> 
> 
> 
> you totally fabricate a definition and then rest your case on that defintion???
> LOL THAT is a fucking MORON
> 
> asshole
> 
> btw, there was ZERO anger in that post
> that is why you are seen by so many as nothing but an idiot
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I totally fabricated a definition of moron, using an encyclopedia. Hey prove me wrong pea brain, let me see a paragraph from you.
Click to expand...

fuck off asswipe


----------



## Bfgrn

DiveCon said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> you totally fabricate a definition and then rest your case on that defintion???
> LOL THAT is a fucking MORON
> 
> asshole
> 
> btw, there was ZERO anger in that post
> that is why you are seen by so many as nothing but an idiot
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I totally fabricated a definition of moron, using an encyclopedia. Hey prove me wrong pea brain, let me see a paragraph from you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> fuck off asswipe
Click to expand...


F off a-wipe is not a paragraph...*FAIL*


----------



## DiveCon

Bfgrn said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> 
> I totally fabricated a definition of moron, using an encyclopedia. Hey prove me wrong pea brain, let me see a paragraph from you.
> 
> 
> 
> fuck off asswipe
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> F off a-wipe is not a paragraph...*FAIL*
Click to expand...

since when do i have to give you anything, asshole?
you are a massive fail


----------



## amrchaos

Sunni Man said:


> You people are borderline silly over the Iranian protesters.
> 
> In 1989 there were massive protests at Tiananmen Square in China.
> 
> It went on for a couple of weeks and involved huge numbers of Chineese citizens.
> 
> The news media intensely covered the story and experts predicted the fall of the communist Chineese government.
> 
> Wrong!!!
> 
> The protesters were violently stopped and the ring leaders arrested and given long prison sentences.
> 
> The incident faded into history and the Chinese government continued on with business as usual.
> 
> The Iran situation will also follow this same scenario and become a non event




You do know that the Iranians overthrew a dictatorship before.

Given that and the direction of this protests, the odds of the Iranian changing governments within the next couple of months I would put at 60%.

If they keeping going back into the streets, their chances will only increase.

On the China issue--the Chinese government started to reform, open up the government and even tried new ideas to help curb the citizens desires.  They still have along way to go.  Even so, the communists in Chian realized one thing--they would have to change in order to keep power.

The Iranian government is not going to change.  Strict observance of religion does not allow it.  Add to this that we are now watching a popular revolt based on the Mullahs resistance, and the Iranian government is defiantly going to change within the next generation--_if no other nation interferes_....


----------



## amrchaos

Sunni Man said:


> DiveCon said:
> 
> 
> 
> they are reporting "dozens killed" on FNC right now
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The protesters have resorted to criminal tactics and terrorist activity.
> 
> Of course the police will resort to deadly force.
Click to expand...


If you want to overthrow a brutla regime, singing patriot songs and giving speeches just do not have the same effect as "criminal tactics and terrorist activity"


Like those Palestians marching on land retrieved chanted--TERRORISM WORKS.


----------



## amrchaos

chanel said:


> The "Blame US crowd" is in the conspiracy section.  Someone posted that the CIA spent millions to influence the election or something.



I hoped the CIA  did!!  Better to use the CIA to overthrow dictatorships than to aid dictatorships.


----------

