# Health Care Should Be FREE!  (In the U.S.)



## krypto (May 31, 2016)

Somebody around here probably already did a thread like this.  And there was that documentary done about it called "Sicko."  But I got quite a few objections out of people with my thread, "College should be free. (for Americans)"  I wonder what they will have to say about me saying that health care should be free too.  And the worse that may be for insurance companies, the better I like it!


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## Bob Blaylock (May 31, 2016)

krypto said:


> Somebody around here probably already did a thread like this.  And there was that documentary done about it called "Sicko."  But I got quite a few objections out of people with my thread, "College should be free. (for Americans)"  I wonder what they will have to say about me saying that health care should be free too.  And the worse that may be for insurance companies, the better I like it!



  Such a wish is born of extreme ignorance about the most basic facts of economics.

  It is not possible for college nor medical care to be free.

  It costs money—lots of money—to offer these services.  Facilities must be built and maintained, equipment and materials must be provided,and staff must be employed.  “Free” does not negate this basic fact; if someone receives these services for “free”, all it really means is that someone else, who is not receiving these services, is being compelled to pay for them.


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## Toddsterpatriot (May 31, 2016)

krypto said:


> Somebody around here probably already did a thread like this.  And there was that documentary done about it called "Sicko."  But I got quite a few objections out of people with my thread, "College should be free. (for Americans)"  I wonder what they will have to say about me saying that health care should be free too.  And the worse that may be for insurance companies, the better I like it!



I agree, you should go to medical school and work for free.
It's only fair.


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## BULLDOG (May 31, 2016)

Bob Blaylock said:


> krypto said:
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> > Somebody around here probably already did a thread like this.  And there was that documentary done about it called "Sicko."  But I got quite a few objections out of people with my thread, "College should be free. (for Americans)"  I wonder what they will have to say about me saying that health care should be free too.  And the worse that may be for insurance companies, the better I like it!
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You got a problem with funding pre-K through 12? Just add a couple more grades. We didn't add grade 12 until the 30's and kindergarten wasn't available until the 60's. We have since added preK.


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## Arianrhod (Jun 1, 2016)

Bob Blaylock said:


> krypto said:
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> > Somebody around here probably already did a thread like this.  And there was that documentary done about it called "Sicko."  But I got quite a few objections out of people with my thread, "College should be free. (for Americans)"  I wonder what they will have to say about me saying that health care should be free too.  And the worse that may be for insurance companies, the better I like it!
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Maybe someday one of you can explain why Americans pay multiple times more for even the most basic healthcare than people in any other industrialized nation, and that's a Good Thing.

I'm guessing your answer will have something to do with "American exceptionalism."


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## Sun Devil 92 (Jun 1, 2016)

krypto said:


> Somebody around here probably already did a thread like this.  And there was that documentary done about it called "Sicko."  But I got quite a few objections out of people with my thread, "College should be free. (for Americans)"  I wonder what they will have to say about me saying that health care should be free too.  And the worse that may be for insurance companies, the better I like it!



Free to who.....???

Or do you really plan to put a gun to a doctor's head and tell him to work without getting paid ?


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## Arianrhod (Jun 1, 2016)

Sun Devil 92 said:


> krypto said:
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> > Somebody around here probably already did a thread like this.  And there was that documentary done about it called "Sicko."  But I got quite a few objections out of people with my thread, "College should be free. (for Americans)"  I wonder what they will have to say about me saying that health care should be free too.  And the worse that may be for insurance companies, the better I like it!
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So in place of reasoned argument, we have hyperbole.  Not surprising.


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## Sun Devil 92 (Jun 1, 2016)

Bob Blaylock said:


> krypto said:
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> > Somebody around here probably already did a thread like this.  And there was that documentary done about it called "Sicko."  But I got quite a few objections out of people with my thread, "College should be free. (for Americans)"  I wonder what they will have to say about me saying that health care should be free too.  And the worse that may be for insurance companies, the better I like it!
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While I agree with your first two statements....your last paragraph hits into something different.

The U.S. pays $8,500 per person per year.

Compared to countries that pay 1/4 that amount and have pretty good outcomes.


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## Bob Blaylock (Jun 1, 2016)

Arianrhod said:


> Maybe someday one of you can explain why Americans pay multiple times more for even the most basic healthcare than people in any other industrialized nation, and that's a Good Thing.
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> I'm guessing your answer will have something to do with "American exceptionalism."



  As if putting government and bureaucracy in charge of it will have any effect other than to make it even more expensive and less efficient.  How ignorant does someone have to be to believe that this is a good idea?


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## Arianrhod (Jun 1, 2016)

Bob Blaylock said:


> Arianrhod said:
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> > Maybe someday one of you can explain why Americans pay multiple times more for even the most basic healthcare than people in any other industrialized nation, and that's a Good Thing.
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Define what you mean by "in charge of it," and then explain why other industrialized nations (please make sure to cite how they all have small, homogeneous populations, because we know what that's code for) are able to provide universal healthcare for their citizens but the U.S. can't.

Is it your perception that "WAAAAH, we can't do it!!!" makes Americans look smarter?

Or, in other words, if you were in charge, how would you solve the problem - assuming you even see it as a problem?


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## krypto (Jun 1, 2016)

Bob Blaylock said:


> krypto said:
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> > Somebody around here probably already did a thread like this.  And there was that documentary done about it called "Sicko."  But I got quite a few objections out of people with my thread, "College should be free. (for Americans)"  I wonder what they will have to say about me saying that health care should be free too.  And the worse that may be for insurance companies, the better I like it!
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  I ran across the same sort of moronic argument with my thread about making college free.  What it costs society in general doesn't matter.  What does matter is what college students and patients are charged.  Which should be 0.

  In an economic sense, with those things acheived, the economy would find its own equilibrium.  But one of the main problems is humanity itself.  I was watching a news program once about a study done with children.  Most, if not all the children prefered to take fewer things that they valued.  As long as it meant that some other child received nothing at all.  Probably because of an instinctual status thing.  Which obviously is something that never really goes away.  You just have to decide what is more important.  Your personal status or society in general.

  Also, as I was telling someone else, our whole economic system is basically a sham.  A ponzie or pyramid scheme at best.  Private financial institutions are basically free to print money.  To a degree that would put any counterfeiter who ever lived to shame.  Another thing is how much does it influence your daily life that the U.S. is over 18 trillion dollars in debt.  Or that we have about 65 trillion dollars worth of unfunded obligations.  Or that each year we lose anywhere from around 300 billion to over 700 billion dollars in our trade deficit with China alone.  And to the tune of around 65 billion dollars, the same is true with Mexico.  Or that each year, we HAVE to pay around 420 billion dollars just on the interest of our national debt.

  From what I hear, U.S. citizens pay something around 2 trillion dollars each year on health care.  Without some controls, that a single payer national health care system would provide, that number is likely to rise.  Please excuse me for not giving you precise stastics and links to websites that show them.  But I have heard that anywhere from 40% to 60% of the 2 trillion spent pays for useless bureaucracy.

  Another thing is that you have never been screwed as well as an insurance company can do it.  The stories are endless of people who had insurance, but were denied coverage because the lawyers and doctors that insurance companies pay to do so find some loophole that allowed them to do so.  This causes a strain on society in general that you will end up paying for in one way or another anyway.  So why not just make medical coverage "free" and put an end to all the shit.


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## krypto (Jun 1, 2016)

Toddsterpatriot said:


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> > Somebody around here probably already did a thread like this.  And there was that documentary done about it called "Sicko."  But I got quite a few objections out of people with my thread, "College should be free. (for Americans)"  I wonder what they will have to say about me saying that health care should be free too.  And the worse that may be for insurance companies, the better I like it!
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  In the countries where they have "free" medical coverage, NONE of the doctors work for free.  Also, if a student didn't have to pay anything for a doctorate in medicine, they might be a little more willing to work for a little less.  Another thing is that from what I hear, many doctors who serve internships at some hospital get the shit worked out of them.  Being on call 24 hours a day and such.  Maybe if the government paid for their education, there would be more of them around.  Which would lighten their load.


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## krypto (Jun 1, 2016)

BULLDOG said:


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  What makes you think I have a problem with society funding school and making it free for the students.  As you know, I even started a thread that said college should be free.  That is, to the students.


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## krypto (Jun 1, 2016)

Sun Devil 92 said:


> krypto said:
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> > Somebody around here probably already did a thread like this.  And there was that documentary done about it called "Sicko."  But I got quite a few objections out of people with my thread, "College should be free. (for Americans)"  I wonder what they will have to say about me saying that health care should be free too.  And the worse that may be for insurance companies, the better I like it!
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  In the countries where they have "free" medical coverage, give me some stories of doctors there who have a gun put to their head.  Or work without getting paid.


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## Vigilante (Jun 1, 2016)




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## krypto (Jun 1, 2016)

Bob Blaylock said:


> Arianrhod said:
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> > Maybe someday one of you can explain why Americans pay multiple times more for even the most basic healthcare than people in any other industrialized nation, and that's a Good Thing.
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  I found one website that says around 31% of what Americans now spend on healthcare goes to bureaucracy.  And that if we went to a "free" single payer national health care system, that system would pay for itself.  That's what they said.  They also said that with what we now pay in bureaucracy, our government could give "free" health care to 41 million uninsured Americans.  All in all, having the taxpayer pay for universal health care doesn't seem quite so onerous.  That is, if you looked at it as being onerous to begin with.


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## Vigilante (Jun 1, 2016)

krypto said:


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How does one PAY for FREE Healthcare??????How much will it cost each family compared to the Onerous ObozoCare?


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jun 1, 2016)

krypto said:


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*
In the countries where they have "free" medical coverage, NONE of the doctors work for free.
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If you want it to be free here, that's what it will take.
Start studying, we could all use your free help.


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## Conservative65 (Jun 1, 2016)

krypto said:


> Somebody around here probably already did a thread like this.  And there was that documentary done about it called "Sicko."  But I got quite a few objections out of people with my thread, "College should be free. (for Americans)"  I wonder what they will have to say about me saying that health care should be free too.  And the worse that may be for insurance companies, the better I like it!



So you aren't willing to earn anything?  Think it all should be provided to you?  

I say the same thing about you.  You're a worthless freeloader.


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## Conservative65 (Jun 1, 2016)

Arianrhod said:


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Oh, the typical Liberal "code" argument.  I don't need code words to describe a freeloader like you.  Worthless piece of shit does it and that's code for worthless piece of shit.


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## krypto (Jun 1, 2016)

Vigilante said:


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  What if a family needed health care, but couldn't afford it.  How much would it cost them then.  Have you ever even have a pet you were fond of die?  How did it make you feel if you did.  Maybe you got the idea from some of my posts that I am completely without compassion.  But I'm not.  It's just that I have more compassion for White people.  

  The thing is that when you spread the burden out amongst everybody, especially the wealthy, (with the exception of doctors) the burden becomes less for everybody.  Also, I agree that Omonko care is a joke.  He probably still has kiss imprints on his ass from insurance company executives and lobyists to come up with the ingenious idea to simply force people to pay for medical insurance.  And whatever that was, I would bet that simply paying some tax would be far cheaper. 

  There is one major drawback to universal health care though.  Apparently there is already far more than enough incentive for OIISSM to sneak across or tunnel under the border to get into the U.S.  Giving them free medical coverage when they got here would be even more of a draw.  Hopefully Trump will get elected and actually keep his promise to get rid of them.


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## krypto (Jun 1, 2016)

Toddsterpatriot said:


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  Now you're just talking crap.  In the countries where they have universal health care, it doesn't "take" them not paying their doctors to do so.  Also, you don't need my free help.  It's already there.  Just go to England, France, Germany, Canadia, Japan or any of the other countries where they have it and see how they do it.  Not only that, they each probably have a slightly unique way of doing it.  The U.S. can pick and choose what way works best.


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## krypto (Jun 1, 2016)

Conservative65 said:


> krypto said:
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> > Somebody around here probably already did a thread like this.  And there was that documentary done about it called "Sicko."  But I got quite a few objections out of people with my thread, "College should be free. (for Americans)"  I wonder what they will have to say about me saying that health care should be free too.  And the worse that may be for insurance companies, the better I like it!
> ...



  You don't know anything about me.  When I was about 8 or 9 years old, I used to ride by bike for miles most days to most of the bars in my area of town to shine shoes.  Later, when I needed real employment, jobs were just about impossible to find in the part of Michigan that I lived in.  Over the years, I worked on two occasions in Indaina.  I worked on a couple of occasions in Texas.  I also worked in Florida where I got into an accident that wasn't my fault and got soundly and difinitively fucked by the insurance company of the guy who caused the accident.  That I only survived by a miracle.  Unfortunately, on one occasion I went to Virginia and ended up joining the navy.  

  Keep in mind, all this traveling around is especially hard on a poor person.  In one of the jobs I had, I actually had somebody in a group of workers ask me not to work so hard.  Apparently it was making them look bad.  So you can take your 'worthless freeloader" bullshit and shove it up your ass sideways.


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## BULLDOG (Jun 1, 2016)

krypto said:


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It was a rhetorical question. Looking at it as just adding a couple more grades might make it more palatable to the anti-education bunch.


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## Arianrhod (Jun 1, 2016)

BULLDOG said:


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Given their general ineptitude in spelling, grammar, and punctuation, I've come to the conclusion that they're anti-education because if other people's children do well in school, theirs will look bad by comparison.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jun 1, 2016)

krypto said:


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*In the countries where they have universal health care, it doesn't "take" them not paying their doctors to do so.* 

By all means, explain your plan for free health care here.

*Just go to England, France, Germany, Canadia, Japan or any of the other countries where they have it and see how they do it.
*
Rationing, long delays, less equipment, older equipment, older medicines, fewer medicines etc etc.


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## 007 (Jun 1, 2016)

krypto said:


> Somebody around here probably already did a thread like this.  And there was that documentary done about it called "Sicko."  But I got quite a few objections out of people with my thread, "College should be free. (for Americans)"  I wonder what they will have to say about me saying that health care should be free too.  And the worse that may be for insurance companies, the better I like it!


Who's going to pay for all this FREE STUFF?

You do realize that NOTHING is FREE... right?


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## dblack (Jun 1, 2016)

Blow jobs should be free too.


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## Conservative65 (Jun 2, 2016)

krypto said:


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If you've worked all those situation you say and are still poor, sounds to me as if you aren't offering anything in the way of skills.  That's your fault, freeloader.  That you support someone like me being forced to provide things for people they should be providing themselves proves it.


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## Sun Devil 92 (Jun 2, 2016)

krypto said:


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That was the question.....free to who.

If they are getting paid...who is paying them ?


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## Arianrhod (Jun 2, 2016)

Sun Devil 92 said:


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Economics 101.


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## krypto (Jun 2, 2016)

Toddsterpatriot said:


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  Have somebody pay me a good salary and I will explain how to do universal health care in this country.  Or you could elect me as dictator and see me do it.  Next, health care in other countries is far better than you would like people to believe.  Just watch the documentary "Sicko."  Also there is no justification as you may have heard on the news some months back to raise the price of some medecine by 1500%.  Another thing is that even "if" universal health care caused there to be a little lessening of the quality of health care here, and that is a very big "IF," having universal health care would make it worth it.

  Also, look at Germany.  They have a population of about 81 million.  Then look at Japan.  They have a population of around 127 million.  But given their size, they kick America's ass when it comes to the yearly value of their exports.  The U.S. is a far larger country than both of those put together.  We also have a population of around 319 million.  And our country is far richer in terms of natural resources and arable land.  If we can't do universal health care BETTER than those other countries, it doesn't mean that there is something wrong with universal health care.  It means that there is something wrong with us!


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## krypto (Jun 2, 2016)

007 said:


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  Everybody will pay a little to make those things free.  Also, how much do termites get paid to build a termite mound.  Are you trying to tell me that humans couldn't blow some bugs out of the water when it comes to doing something?


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## krypto (Jun 2, 2016)

Conservative65 said:


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  Without laborers like me, parasitic freeloader aristocrat scum like you couldn't survive.


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## krypto (Jun 2, 2016)

Sun Devil 92 said:


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  What a great fucking idea!!!  Let's PAY people to go to college!  And the better they do, the more they get paid!  You can bet your ass that if I got paid to do well in highschool, I would have done so.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jun 2, 2016)

krypto said:


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*
Have somebody pay me a good salary and I will explain how to do universal health care in this country.
*
We have enough idiots with bad ideas, why would anyone pay you good money to hear your bad ideas?

*Next, health care in other countries is far better than you would like people to believe.* 

And far worse than you would like people to believe. 
*
Just watch the documentary "Sicko."* 

That's funny, because I was just talking about idiots with bad ideas......


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## Arianrhod (Jun 2, 2016)

And the evidence we have that any Internet anonym has the qualifications to be paid for his "expertise" on this topic is -?


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## krypto (Jun 2, 2016)

Toddsterpatriot said:


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  First, you never heard my ideas.  As I said, why should I tell them when I'm not getting paid to do so.  So idiots like you can learn them and take the credit?  And with you not having heard them, how can you say they are bad ideas.  Next, yeah, so bad that many people travel overseas to have anything from a facelift to heart surgery done for a cheaper price.  With far better aftercare and with a greater number of highly trained people.

  The next point happen to include something from the documentary "Sicko."  Tell me, did you actually ever see it?  Or is it another thing you call bad without having heard it first.  If you watched it, you may remember the ride along the film makers did with a doctor as he went around making house calls.  That is far better health care than even exists in this country anymore.  For me, if I need to see a doctor, I have to make an appointment.  And when that day arrives, I have to make my way to the doctors office and wait around in their reception area.  Then, when I am brought back to see the doctor, I have to do more waiting in the examination room.  (I say sarcastically)  Yeah.  That sounds like far better health care.


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## krypto (Jun 2, 2016)

Arianrhod said:


> And the evidence we have that any Internet anonym has the qualifications to be paid for his "expertise" on this topic is -?



  You can argue any point into infinity.  Maybe I'm not qualified to do that.  But universal health care isn't rocket science.  But even then, I did come up with a plan for a faster than light space drive many years ago.  But JPL wasn't interested.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jun 2, 2016)

krypto said:


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*First, you never heard my ideas*

Based on your posts here, you're being paid exactly what your ideas are worth. Zero.


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## krypto (Jun 2, 2016)

Toddsterpatriot said:


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  If you've never heard them, how can you say they're worthless.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jun 2, 2016)

krypto said:


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Based on your posts and your beliefs about Sicko, it's clear your ideas are worthless.

You should take them down to Venezuela, they have some questions about toilet paper for you.


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## emilynghiem (Jun 2, 2016)

krypto said:


> Somebody around here probably already did a thread like this.  And there was that documentary done about it called "Sicko."  But I got quite a few objections out of people with my thread, "College should be free. (for Americans)"  I wonder what they will have to say about me saying that health care should be free too.  And the worse that may be for insurance companies, the better I like it!



Dear krypto
As Avatar4321 explained before, since health care requires material goods and services (and also some systems of education unless you have free lectures sponsored at existing sites that don't require any additional overhead) then "making this free" would involve "involuntary servitude" or making people give their labor for free. Now, I would add, there is nothing wrong with freely given charity, that is CHOSEN by the giver. But to demand this through govt by force of law amounts to enslavement, because it relies on "somebody's labor."

Now, if YOU are willing to invest in building a free school or free clinic, YOU can choose to give away your time, labor and investment so you and others can enjoy a so-called "free school or free hospital."
You would in effect be "bartering out" your contributions with others doing the same
(warning: all the free schools and clinics I've known that tried this experiment HAD to have a way of monitoring who was giving in and taking out, or else free loaders would keep taking and burning out the people running it)

What I would add to the model to make this work
1. microlending, or agreements to lend or cover the costs of a student's education or a patient's care
in exchange for paying it back later so the next person can benefit. There is a medical program in Bethesda MD that used to work on this basis: medical education was covered for students who agreed to serve a set amount of years working in public HMO providing services to the public.
For microlending and business training to pay back loans and become independent, here are links to the Grameen Foundation/Grameen Bank and the NACA network for refinancing homes at affordable rates:
Grameen Foundation | Connecting the World's Poor to Their Potential
facebook title

2. independent currency or a barter database to keep track of credits paid in and out
similar to registering for school and having to earn credits to graduate,
why not set up systems of monitoring how much labor people invest in building a school,
or a hospital or housing program, etc. Then you can have credits toward your education.
Why not have work-study programs where some of the work does generate revenue.
See Paul Glover's system of labor-backed currency Introducing HOUR Money

3. if you REALLY REALLY want to go advanced, I would recommend organizing
communities to invest in owning and building around their own schools, clinics, even police and teachers unions to govern their districts as independently as possible, cut the crime rates, and invest the difference in taxes saved into education and health care (instead of paying up to 50K a person per year for prisons) Since the labor and resources needed to PROVIDE education and health care "have to come from somewhere" then the two incentives I would offer to organize such resources are (1) giving people tax breaks for investing or lending capital, or giving people control of management for buying out districts to set this up so all the local taxes go into supporting the services for that district and it is run as a self-sustaining economy and self-governed community. (2) using RICO or related laws to claim "restitution for past crimes, abuses or violations" and setting up the damages and debts owed to people or communities who suffered civil or criminal wrongs to be "paid back" by crediting, reimbursing, investing and/or transferring or selling shares in ownership of districts and programs, so that these become the solutions and corrections to the wrongs done to those people or communities.

This is the closest you may get to providing "free education and health care" by funding facilities and programs instead of wasting billions on prisons to cover only inmates using resources that could cover the greater public.

http://www.houstonprogressive.org
Earned Amnesty
music video for Sustainable Campus converting sweatshop labor to workstudy jobs


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## Sun Devil 92 (Jun 2, 2016)

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Robots will replace you very soon


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## Sun Devil 92 (Jun 2, 2016)

krypto said:


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Can you please post something that makes sense ?

Just once ?

Why would I pay you to do well in high school ?  We need people t work at McDonalds and rent those cheap apartments that slumlords build.  Thanks for signing up.  If you didn't have any more vision than that...tough.


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## Bob Blaylock (Jun 2, 2016)

krypto said:


> Everybody will pay a little to make those things *free*.


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## emilynghiem (Jun 3, 2016)

krypto said:


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Dear krypto 
OKAY if you believe in this, start a company that raises money for scholarships, internships
and student loans and grants.  Feature students you think deserve funding.
You could have a million dollar site, combining gofundme and those audition contest / shark tank shows.

Get universities behind you. Grant foundations.
Big companies looking to hire rising stars. Go for it!


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## Conservative65 (Jun 3, 2016)

Sun Devil 92 said:


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A robot won't replace him, specifically.  He actually has to be doing something to be replaced.


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## AsherN (Jun 3, 2016)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> krypto said:
> 
> 
> > Toddsterpatriot said:
> ...



So, you really have never been to those countries then.


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## Arianrhod (Jun 3, 2016)

krypto said:


> Arianrhod said:
> 
> 
> > And the evidence we have that any Internet anonym has the qualifications to be paid for his "expertise" on this topic is -?
> ...



That's a topic for a thread in a different forum.  For this forum, you should explain how you would guarantee Americans access to quality healthcare.  Go for it!


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## dblack (Jun 3, 2016)

Arianrhod said:


> krypto said:
> 
> 
> > Arianrhod said:
> ...



Screw that. If krypto has cracked FTL travel, all bets are off. To the stars!


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## krypto (Jun 3, 2016)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> krypto said:
> 
> 
> > Toddsterpatriot said:
> ...



  If you think ANY of my ideas are worthless, just let me know.  That should give you some clue.  Also, the U.S. isn't Venezuela.  At least not yet.  But there are a lot of OIISS from south of the border who are working on that.


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## Toddsterpatriot (Jun 3, 2016)

krypto said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
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> > krypto said:
> ...



So far, all your ideas are worthless.


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## norwegen (Jun 3, 2016)

Arianrhod said:


> Bob Blaylock said:
> 
> 
> > krypto said:
> ...


Nationalized healthcare is American exceptionalism?  lol.

So, lessee now:  we pay multiple times more for healthcare, and we have nationalized healthcare.

Gee, you stumped me, Mon.  Why do we pay more?


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## krypto (Jun 3, 2016)

emilynghiem said:


> krypto said:
> 
> 
> > Somebody around here probably already did a thread like this.  And there was that documentary done about it called "Sicko."  But I got quite a few objections out of people with my thread, "College should be free. (for Americans)"  I wonder what they will have to say about me saying that health care should be free too.  And the worse that may be for insurance companies, the better I like it!
> ...



  Blah blah,  blahblahblah, blah fucking blah.  Other developed countries have free health care.  And free college.  None if it is due to "involuntary servitude."  At least, not in a general sense.  Most of any society that has ever existed is based on involuntary servitude.  (But especially our dog eat dog capitalist system)  If you don't work, you can't pay off that mortgage on your house or that loan on your car.  Also, I wasn't in the military because I wanted to be there.  Like most people, I just needed a job.  Even if it was basically selling myself into slavery.  Only the wealthy are free from involuntary servitude.

  As to how to make free medical care or free college work, all you need to do is see how other countries do it.  Though granted, they don't have to put up with the level of multiethnic bullshit that we do.  And that is probably despite letting so many muslim invaders into their countries.  Also, those other countries probably have slightly different approaches to doing what they do.  All the U.S. has to do is see the various ways they do it and pick a plan that is best for the U.S.  Monkey see, monkey do.


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## krypto (Jun 3, 2016)

Sun Devil 92 said:


> krypto said:
> 
> 
> > Conservative65 said:
> ...



  Actually, from what I heard, some places have been replacing robots with humans.  In a technical sense, they are far less complicated, and costly, to build and maintain.


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## krypto (Jun 3, 2016)

Sun Devil 92 said:


> krypto said:
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> > Sun Devil 92 said:
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  What makes you think you need people to work at McDonalds.  Just cook your own damn food.  And screw the slumlords.  They don't make a positive contrubution to society.  All they do is leech off the most defenseless.


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## krypto (Jun 3, 2016)

emilynghiem said:


> krypto said:
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> 
> > Sun Devil 92 said:
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  I can't even afford to eat very well.  And after a few weeks, I am usually broke.  Also, I often have to ride a bus if I need to go anywhere.  Why don't you just suggest to me that I wave a magic fucking wand.  After all, doesn't that work for everybody?


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## Conservative65 (Jun 3, 2016)

krypto said:


> Sun Devil 92 said:
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> > krypto said:
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Depends on the human.  Many maintain themselves and provide for themselves what they should be providing for themselves.  Too many, you being just one example, think whatever someone wants should be given to them even if it costs someone else that provides to themselves more.  In other words, there are two types of people in this country.  Those that earn/work for a living and those that are freeloaders/vote for a living.


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## krypto (Jun 3, 2016)

Arianrhod said:


> krypto said:
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  Easy!!!!!  Tooo fucking easy!!!!  Just secede to either the Netherlands, Japan, Canadia, England, France or Germany.  Let them run things.  They already have it up and running in their countries.  All they need to do is extend their blanket of wise rule over us worthless dipshit Americans.  DONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Conservative65 (Jun 3, 2016)

krypto said:


> emilynghiem said:
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> > krypto said:
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I didn't wave a magic wand.  I went out and did something to earn what I have.  You, on the other hand, demand someone else go out and earn so it can be taken in order to provide to you.  

No one, and I mean no one, owes you a damn thing.  

I suggest you get off your ass and spend half as much time doing something to better  yourself as you do demanding someone else provide to you.


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## Conservative65 (Jun 3, 2016)

krypto said:


> Arianrhod said:
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> > krypto said:
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Between the two of us, there is only one dipshit.  That's you.


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## Conservative65 (Jun 3, 2016)

krypto said:


> emilynghiem said:
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> > krypto said:
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Which countries have doctors that work for free?  Which countries have college professors that work for free?  

You in the military?  Liar.  The military has a way of dealing with pieces of shit like you.


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## krypto (Jun 3, 2016)

Conservative65 said:


> krypto said:
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> > Sun Devil 92 said:
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  Benjamin Franklin used to be an indentured servant/apprentice.  I don't think he was given much to "provide for himself."  There used to be negroid slaves in this country who were sometimes worked to death.  Though they worked hard, there wan't much they could provide for themselves.  There used to be coal miners in this country who were paid in company script.  To get the things they needed, they had to go ever deeper into debt to the coal company.  Virtually ensuring their continued slavery.  Etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

  "The more that things change, the more they stay the same."  You can shove your "earn/work for a living" so far up your ass that you would need a dentist to see the other end of it.


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## krypto (Jun 3, 2016)

Conservative65 said:


> krypto said:
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> > Arianrhod said:
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  Prove it.  Go to any of the countries I mentioned and tell them that they have to pay money if they have a medical problem.


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## Conservative65 (Jun 3, 2016)

krypto said:


> Conservative65 said:
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> > krypto said:
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Who is paying the doctors?


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## krypto (Jun 3, 2016)

Conservative65 said:


> krypto said:
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  Just fuck off and die.  Do it now!


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## Conservative65 (Jun 3, 2016)

krypto said:


> Conservative65 said:
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When you're man enough to back up that demand, do so.  Try it, now and fail.


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## krypto (Jun 3, 2016)

Conservative65 said:


> krypto said:
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  The government dickwad.  The government.  They are single payer health care systems.  Who is the single payer?  The government.


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## krypto (Jun 3, 2016)

Conservative65 said:


> krypto said:
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  I have already done it.  As far as I am concerned, you have both fucked off and died.  DONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Conservative65 (Jun 3, 2016)

krypto said:


> Conservative65 said:
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Where does the government get the money?


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## Conservative65 (Jun 3, 2016)

krypto said:


> Conservative65 said:
> 
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> > krypto said:
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Yet I'm still here treating you like the worthless piece of shit you are.    

If you had done it, I wouldn't be here.  As far as I'm concerned, you couldn't do it if you wanted to try.


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## krypto (Jun 3, 2016)

Conservative65 said:


> krypto said:
> 
> 
> > emilynghiem said:
> ...



  Oh.  You mean what you "earned" in the absence of any other single human on the planet?  You're a joke.  Next, moron, what is it you don't get.  If medical coverage and college were free, "everybody" would benifit.  In the documentary "Sicko," the people they talked to, the "working" ones, were horrified at the thought of doing without their free medical coverage.  And you are horrified at the thought of it?  How interesting.  Also, I have something to suggest to you too.  But I don't feel like getting banned.


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## krypto (Jun 3, 2016)

Conservative65 said:


> krypto said:
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> > Conservative65 said:
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  Maybe the same place our government does.  Despite being over 18 trillion dollars in debt with around 65 trillion dollars worth of unfunded obligations.  They pretend it into existance.  I will show you a picture of what your money basically is.


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## Conservative65 (Jun 3, 2016)

krypto said:


> Conservative65 said:
> 
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> > krypto said:
> ...



In other words, those countries fund it from taxes paid by the people you say don't have to pay anything to see a doctor.  They've paid yet you think it's free.


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## krypto (Jun 3, 2016)

Conservative65 said:


> krypto said:
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> > Conservative65 said:
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  Oh, you have fucked off and died all right.  The only reason why you aren't on my ignore list is because your stupidity amuses me.


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## Conservative65 (Jun 3, 2016)

krypto said:


> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> > krypto said:
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Since neither can be free, your talk of benefits is invalid.  

Afraid?


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## Moonglow (Jun 3, 2016)

krypto said:


> Somebody around here probably already did a thread like this.  And there was that documentary done about it called "Sicko."  But I got quite a few objections out of people with my thread, "College should be free. (for Americans)"  I wonder what they will have to say about me saying that health care should be free too.  And the worse that may be for insurance companies, the better I like it!


It is in the military, just join up....


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## Conservative65 (Jun 3, 2016)

krypto said:


> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> > krypto said:
> ...



The only reason you'd put me on your ignore list is because you're a coward.


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## krypto (Jun 3, 2016)

Conservative65 said:


> krypto said:
> 
> 
> > Conservative65 said:
> ...



  There are no, "in other words."  Also, the bills are paid for by the taxpayer.  And most of them are happy about it.  There are shitloads of people in this country who go into bankruptcy or become homeless because they can't pay their medical bills.  Do you know how often that happens in countries with free medical coverage?  NEVER!  Oh, but I forgot.  You are the only person why matters.

  Sometimes, you need the power of a government to step in and do what needs to be done.  For example, I doubt if any private company could have afforded to send people to the moon.


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## Conservative65 (Jun 3, 2016)

krypto said:


> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> > krypto said:
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When it comes to MY money, damn right I'm the only one that matters.  I have no problem with wanting to keep more of what I earned.  If the freeloaders like you think what someone else earned is somehow yours, you shouldn't have  problem with the one earning it keeping it for the reason only.  

Do you consider space exploration science?


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## krypto (Jun 3, 2016)

Moonglow said:


> krypto said:
> 
> 
> > Somebody around here probably already did a thread like this.  And there was that documentary done about it called "Sicko."  But I got quite a few objections out of people with my thread, "College should be free. (for Americans)"  I wonder what they will have to say about me saying that health care should be free too.  And the worse that may be for insurance companies, the better I like it!
> ...



  Military medicine, just like the VA, is a joke.  Also, what do you do if you have a worthless medical degree from TequilaU, Guatemala and still want to move up in the medical field?  Just join the military.


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## krypto (Jun 3, 2016)

Conservative65 said:


> krypto said:
> 
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> > Conservative65 said:
> ...



  Or because I'm getting tired of inane insults.


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## Moonglow (Jun 3, 2016)

krypto said:


> Moonglow said:
> 
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> > krypto said:
> ...


They can only kill you once....


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## Conservative65 (Jun 3, 2016)

krypto said:


> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> > krypto said:
> ...



Because you're a coward.  Run, pussy.  It's all you are.  You have to make excuses to make your cowardly ass feel better.


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## krypto (Jun 3, 2016)

Conservative65 said:


> krypto said:
> 
> 
> > Conservative65 said:
> ...



  First, you know absolutely nothing about money.  Other than you want to keep as much of it as you can.  So what if you were charged a couple hundred extra dollars each year in taxes for free medical coverage.  That would mean that you would have around $4.00 less in your pocket each week.  Just ask your boss for a $4,00 raise.  Problem solved!  Then nobody goes into bankruptsy or becomes homeless because they can't afford medical coverage.  And if you yourself ever need medical treatment, which you no doubt will someday, you won't have to shove your hand into your pocket and pull out some of that precious money to pay for it.


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## krypto (Jun 3, 2016)

Conservative65 said:


> krypto said:
> 
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> > Conservative65 said:
> ...



  Fuck off queerbait.  Welcome to ignore land.


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## Arianrhod (Jun 3, 2016)

norwegen said:


> Arianrhod said:
> 
> 
> > Bob Blaylock said:
> ...



No.



norwegen said:


> So, lessee now:  we pay multiple times more for healthcare, and we have nationalized healthcare.
> 
> Gee, you stumped me, Mon.  Why do we pay more?



Because people like you believe we have "nationalized healthcare."

When you figure out what's actually going on, get back to us.


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## emilynghiem (Jun 3, 2016)

krypto said:


> emilynghiem said:
> 
> 
> > krypto said:
> ...



Dear krypto 
Other countries that have very stable systems tend to be homogenous.
That would be the equivalent of say, the state of Texas, working out
ways for workers and businesses to invest in hospitals and health care
for its own population. Not depending on federal govt to redistribute
money, which if you were paying attention, resulted in Corporate Insurance
interests getting paid trillions of our tax dollars up front while our citizens
go without affordable coverage and deductibles. That's not how the
other countries pulled it off -- do you see them paying trillions of dollars
to corporations while taxing and fining citizens for not buying insurance from them?

BTW the argument against nationalized health care is that it 
belongs on the level of the states or people to decide.

That IS closer to the level that other countries organize
their systems, more like states. Not like the entire US
that is more like Europe. You don't see one health care
system for all of Europe managed under one central body, do you?
NO, they can't even get the EU right. It's gotten so hijacked the
Mayor of London got elected for backing the threat to pull out
if the EU didn't respect the rights of GB and kept abusing power.

So please compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges.

It is possible to set up systems for states to organize collective
resources and manage them democratically by their own citizens.
That might be closer to what you are comparing with "countries in Europe"

But to set up a centralized system to cover "all states under one policy"
is opening the door to abuse, corruption, and bureaucracy.

Would you really expect all citizens across Europe to be managed
under one health care plan run through the EU. How would you
check that to make sure the money went where everyone agreed
when you are dealing with that diverse population? Clearly it makes
MORE sense to manage it more locally. That is the SAME argument
here; instead of trying to dictate one policy for the whole nation,
let the people and states have freedom to work out their own means
of providing health care.  I have suggested revamping the state and
federal prison systems, to cut costs by running them as medical
programs to diagnose and treat criminal and mental illness so
effectively that it cuts crime and saves billions of dollars. So that
money can be invested in expanding health care services and
medical education and facilities to serve the greater public.

That is best run state by state. That might be closer
to what you are seeing work in countries that don't
have the diversity of populations and regions the US has.


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## emilynghiem (Jun 3, 2016)

Arianrhod said:


> norwegen said:
> 
> 
> > Arianrhod said:
> ...



Dear Arianrhod what we have is worse. we have a corporate monopoly
getting trillions of our tax dollars, backing a mandate that requires all citizens
to pay into the plan either to buy insurance from private interests or pay fines
into a system we didn't agree to either.

This is like holding America hostage under this plan "until someone reforms it
or replaces it"

If you like this plan then you pay for.

I have just as much right to fund CHARITIES I believe are more cost effective,
and NONPROFIT medical programs that are more sustainable.

But THANKS TO YOU going along with this system and enabling it
my rights and freedoms are violated every day the mandates are not
changed to voluntary.

I blame Obama Pelosi Judge Roberts and any other federal officials
who passed and enforced these mandates by voting ruling or signing on it,
when the opposition made it clear it is in VIOLATION of Constitutional laws
and beliefs.

If you show as much disregard for the law as these abusers in office,
I hold you and other Democrats responsible who keep teaching that 
it is lawful when it is unconstitutional. You are equally responsible.

Sorry but I'm trying to fix this problem, not deny it and try to
justify and push it on people as the law. To me, to keep enforcing
it as lawful and denying the rejection of it as unconstitutional,
amounts to CONSPIRING TO VIOLATE EQUAL CIVIL RIGHTS.

Do you really want to be responsible for that?
Not me, I am on the side of teaching people their rights to reject
unconstitutional mandates.

To me, to do what you do and keep teaching people this is acceptable,
is like teaching people to accept rape and robbery: it's okay to be coerced against
your will.  That isn't unlawful to force something on you if OTHER
people are benefitting. Then is it justified to force this on you???

If you are being defrauded of money out of your paycheck
"But the money is helping to go to people in need so it is GOOD"
does that give the people the right to take your money without
your consent?

Sorry Arianrhod but I am horrified and insulted that anyone
would teach this is somehow responsible behavior, much less legal and ethical.

I welcome charity and believe in saving lives by making health
care accessible, affordable and sustainable. 
BUT NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF HUMAN RIGHTS AND FREEDOM

That is NOT necessary to abridge and deny the rights and liberties of
ALL citizens when there are more effective ways of providing health
care we need to invest in that CAN'T BE DONE THROUGH GOVT.

So this shortcut way for political expedience is TAKING AWAY
resources and attention that needs to be invested in building
medical programs and service facilities.

The biggest sign that this is not the best way, is that
even YOU do not take financial responsibility for this,
but expect "other people to pay"

When I compare programs like AmeriCares and Doctors without Borders,
they earn respect and funding support by VOLUNTARY donations
and participation BECAUSE THEY WORK EFFECTIVELY.

THAT is how medical and health care programs need to be 
built to be sustainable and accountable to the public.

They don't FORCE people by taxes to fund them (so they
can cut deals like paying trillions to corporate interests).
They have a good record of using funds for services
IN THE MOST COST EFFECTIVE WAYS in order
to keep getting donations and grants. They earn it by 
providing good services. That's what I believe in.

Yet this system of ACA mandates PUNISHES me
for wanting to fund that. I face FINES if I'd rather
pay money to nonprofits to set up hospitals
rather than pay money to corporate insurance.

*@Arianhrod can you explain why should I be
fined under ACA and forced to give money to
insurance that doesn't provide health care
or create jobs in nursing and medical care,
when by my free market beliefs the most
cost effective way to provide universal care
is to invest DIRECTLY into building medical
education programs, internships and facilities
that provide low cost health care to the public
as part of the supervised education and training.*

Is your program so much better than this, that
you have to FINE me for wanting the free choice
to invest DIRECTLY into building medical schools,
such as converting prisons into medical programs
in order to afford health care for more of the population
using the money currently spent on just prisons and inmates.

Please explain why my beliefs are penalized
and how is this NOT unconstitutional to discriminate
and punish me based on my beliefs.


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## emilynghiem (Jun 3, 2016)

krypto said:


> Conservative65 said:
> 
> 
> > krypto said:
> ...



Dear krypto OK so if the benefits are going to pay off,
are you willing to fund this yourself if you believe it so much?
I give donations to Doctors without Borders because their
cost effectiveness ensures the most people will benefit.

There's nothing wrong with CHOOSING to give charity.

But krypto if you are going to MANDATE charity,
who has the right to DICTATE WHICH CHARITIES
to give to? Why isn't this left to people to decide
to give to Harvard medical school to expand public health internships
and outreach. Or give to UTMB in Galveston.

If this is mandated through govt isn't that dangerous?
What if rightwing could get in control and MANDATE
that our taxes go to PROLIFE groups and anyone
who wants to give to PROCHOICE options, too bad,
you still get FINED and your MONEY goes to the PROLIFE programs anyway.

krypto if you are going to have FEDERAL GOVT
dictate which health care groups to fund, who gets
to decide the rules and regulations.

I'm sorry you don't get this.
Someone you assume that once this power get
into the hands of govt then "magically the govt
will direct the money as you want in your mind"

Good luck with that krypto from experience
the ONLY way I know to ensure the money goes
where YOU think it should go is for YOU to direct
the money there YOURSELF. This is what 
conservatives means by running social programs
through the PRIVATE sector where YOU control
the money and where it goes because it's your money you are responsible for.

krypto I will believe you when you try to set up a program
like Doctors without Borders, Pace Universal or AmeriCares.
Go ahead, see how much work it takes to manage health
care resources and services and get them from point A to point B.
You'll quickly find you don't want govt involved and interfering
with the operations it takes to run such a program effectively.

Remember krypto when you run a program as a private
individual or organization, you can make all the decisions yourself.
When you RUN THINGS THROUGH FEDERAL GOVT
that means you have to vote and pass things that represent
ALL OTHER PEOPLE AND STATES represented by GOVT.

So all the people you are arguing with HERE
they would have to AGREE where and how to fund
which policy or program to make it work and represent everyone.

If you want to run things YOUR way, then you do it privately.
You fund and manage it yourself, through your own organization,
and then you retain full freedom to decide how to do it.

I think you and other liberals have gotten in the bad habit of
expecting to run things through govt and think it will come out
how YOU want it. But YOU aren't the entire nation paying it
and owed equal representation for anytihng passed and enforced by govt.

You seem to think that "once the money is in the hands of govt
you have the right to spend it any way you see fit"

WHY do you think you have the right to bypass the consent
of other taxpayers who are paying in also?

WHY do you think your idea is so much better you can
impose and dictate on everyone else?

I'd really like to know why and where you get this idea.
If any other group took public tax dollars and voted to give it
some charity you didn't agree to fund, you'd yell too.
Why can't you see that people deserve equal freedom
to make that choice where to fund social programs that not everyone agrees on?

Where's the inclusion of diversity?
Where does this come from that you think you can dictate for the rest of the nation?


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## krypto (Jun 4, 2016)

emilynghiem said:


> krypto said:
> 
> 
> > Conservative65 said:
> ...



  Blah blah blah.  I'm not talking about charity.  I'm talking about society.  And your talk of me personally funding free health care, or paying students to go to college, is ludicrous.  Also, your argument about pro-life is pretty far off the mark.  No matter how those pro-life morons slice it, it is always going to be the better argument that it is the woman's body so it should be her choice.  Another thing is that, like it or not, other countries make universal health care work.  If Americans can't, it doesn't mean that there is something wrong with universal health care.  It means that there is something wrong with America.  Which there is.  Many things.


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## JBond (Jun 4, 2016)

krypto said:


> Somebody around here probably already did a thread like this.  And there was that documentary done about it called "Sicko."  But I got quite a few objections out of people with my thread, "College should be free. (for Americans)"  I wonder what they will have to say about me saying that health care should be free too.  And the worse that may be for insurance companies, the better I like it!


Why do you think everyone in the medical profession would work for free? Do other loons believe this garbage?

Or do you mean you want your neighbors to pay for your medical care? Might as well go begging house to house.


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## krypto (Jun 5, 2016)

JBond said:


> krypto said:
> 
> 
> > Somebody around here probably already did a thread like this.  And there was that documentary done about it called "Sicko."  But I got quite a few objections out of people with my thread, "College should be free. (for Americans)"  I wonder what they will have to say about me saying that health care should be free too.  And the worse that may be for insurance companies, the better I like it!
> ...



  In countries where they have universal health care, none of the doctors work for free.  Maybe they don't get paid quite as much as doctors in the U.S. do.  But they still make a very good living.  Next, no dickhead.  I want YOUR neighbors to pay for YOUR health care.  And their neighbors pay for theirs.  And so on and so on.  In tiny, hardly noticable increments of course.  Through taxes.


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## JBond (Jun 5, 2016)

krypto said:


> JBond said:
> 
> 
> > krypto said:
> ...



Little increments. Sounds nice. Good job. We spend about $10,000 per person on healthcare each year. Explain how you would like to do that. Break it down for us. Considering 46% of households pay a net zero of federal tax, explain your wonderful plan.


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## krypto (Jun 5, 2016)

JBond said:


> krypto said:
> 
> 
> > JBond said:
> ...



  First, with what we spend on pointless bureaucracy, we could find free health care for 41 million people.  Also, I am one of the people you speak of.  And in my entire life, I doubt if anything close to 10,000 has been spent on my healthcare.  Let alone what has been spent, for instance, in the last year.  Another thing is that 99% of the wealth in this country is controlled by 1% of the population.  So when it comes to who pays what, the wealthy would have to pay more.  A LOT more!

  Also, I have heard of many major corporations that have gotten away with paying no income taxes.  Maybe you should be concerned a little more about corporate welfare.  Also, if you were wealthy and went to someplace like Las Vegas, would it really kill you to use $100 dollar chips instead of $500, $1000 or even $10,000 dollar chips?

  Also, if you want to know how to make it work, just go to Canadia, Germany, The Netherlands, Sweden, Switzerland, England, France, Japan or wherever and ask them how they do it.  It's easy as pie.  It couldn't get any simpler.  Monkey see, monkey do.  And it would be WAY easier if we got rid of our useless latinos and negros first.


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## JBond (Jun 5, 2016)

I appreciate the response. Most folks here seem to be nothing more than attack dogs. You have some ideas, but are a bit lite on details. England and Canada both are experiencing major issues with their socialized medical programs. My next door neighbors are Canadian. Wonderful people. They moved here when the wife developed breast cancer. Her best chance for survival was here, not Canada. Thank God she is now in remission and has tested clear for 3 years now.

The $10,000 is just the average. Some spend way more and others less. I hear numbers tossed about regarding the 1%, yet when tax increases are proposed they include far more than just the wealthiest 1%. Go for it. Tax the crap out of them. Or try to. It will never happen because they own both political parties. Same for GE, Google, and others. The dems have not done a damn thing differently then the repubs on this issue. That tells me the fix is in and to ignore all the noise both sides make on the topic of taxes.

Again, when 46% of the households essentially contribute nothing at the federal level, paying for these utopian plans becomes problematic.


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## vlossforex (Jun 6, 2016)

It is never free. We citizens pay one way or another. It is either buying health insurance or more taxes. When you get something without paying hard earned cash you have a tendency to waste and abuse those services. Why else to Medicaid patients go to emergency rooms for the sniffles at a cost of 4 times a doctor visit. 
The other factor against this is the government has not run one program successfully or within budget. I really to not wish to leave my health care choice to our elected officials. I had a biopsy on a tumor, cancerous and it was successfully removed at that time. One day diagnosis and surgery. Under other country's National Healthcare I would have had to wait many months or years and would be dead before they got to me.


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## Rambunctious (Jun 6, 2016)

krypto said:


> Somebody around here probably already did a thread like this.  And there was that documentary done about it called "Sicko."  But I got quite a few objections out of people with my thread, "College should be free. (for Americans)"  I wonder what they will have to say about me saying that health care should be free too.  And the worse that may be for insurance companies, the better I like it!


If it costs nothing...it's worth nothing. There is a reason why wealthy folks and  leaders of nations with free health care come here when they get sick. Smarten up Krypto you may need Americas expensive and cherished healthcare one day so don't screw it up by making it worthless.


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## JBond (Jun 6, 2016)

krypto said:


> Blah blah blah.  I'm not talking about charity.  I'm talking about society.  And your talk of me personally funding free health care, or paying students to go to college, is ludicrous.  Also, your argument about pro-life is pretty far off the mark.  No matter how those pro-life morons slice it, it is always going to be the better argument that it is the woman's body so it should be her choice.  Another thing is that, like it or not, other countries make universal health care work.  If Americans can't, it doesn't mean that there is something wrong with universal health care.  It means that there is something wrong with America.  Which there is.  Many things.



Condoning torture is just plain sick and twisted. Only damaged individuals could possible believe it is ok to abort a baby that is capable of feeling pain. Any abortion after the point the baby can feel pain should be illegal.


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## emilynghiem (Jun 6, 2016)

krypto said:


> Blah blah blah.  I'm not talking about charity.  I'm talking about society.  *And your talk of me personally funding free health care, or paying students to go to college, is ludicrous.*  Also, your argument about pro-life is pretty far off the mark.  No matter how those pro-life morons slice it, it is always going to be the better argument that it is *the woman's body so it should be her choice*.  Another thing is that, like it or not, other countries make universal health care work.  If Americans can't, it doesn't mean that there is something wrong with universal health care.  It means that there is something wrong with America.  Which there is.  Many things.



Hi krypto
1. why do you believe so much in the woman's right to choose what to do with her own body but not the right of people to choose what system of health care to invest our money and labor into? Is the money income and labor we produce "already under the control of the state" like the baby in the womb that prolife argue already has rights to life under the state?

2. if you think it is ridiculous to fund health care or paying students to go to college,
*then why are you asking OTHER PEOPLE to pay for this? You just said it is ridiculous.
Guess what, that's what free market people are saying when you INSIST they pay for it personally. What is the difference if you are also asking people to pay out of labor and income for health care through the state. That's still paying personally, right?*

So if I want to pay for free health care, you and I should not do this by paying directly to the programs providing the care we CHOOSE similar to a "woman CHOOSING for herself instead of the govt deciding"

but the ONLY CHOICE YOU BELIEVE In is paying to GOVT to pay for those services
where GOVT makes the decision.

Would you agree to go through GOVT to make decisions on a woman's body?
Where is the same "freedom of choice" in the case of health care?


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## JBond (Jun 6, 2016)

Just so everyone is operating with sound information, I dug up this link. It is a spreadsheet from CMS.gov

Direct link to the spreadsheet:
National Health Expenditures by type of service and source of funds

The Web Site:
Historical - Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services


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## krypto (Jun 6, 2016)

JBond said:


> I appreciate the response. Most folks here seem to be nothing more than attack dogs. You have some ideas, but are a bit lite on details. England and Canada both are experiencing major issues with their socialized medical programs. My next door neighbors are Canadian. Wonderful people. They moved here when the wife developed breast cancer. Her best chance for survival was here, not Canada. Thank God she is now in remission and has tested clear for 3 years now.
> 
> The $10,000 is just the average. Some spend way more and others less. I hear numbers tossed about regarding the 1%, yet when tax increases are proposed they include far more than just the wealthiest 1%. Go for it. Tax the crap out of them. Or try to. It will never happen because they own both political parties. Same for GE, Google, and others. The dems have not done a damn thing differently then the repubs on this issue. That tells me the fix is in and to ignore all the noise both sides make on the topic of taxes.
> 
> Again, when 46% of the households essentially contribute nothing at the federal level, paying for these utopian plans becomes problematic.



  You are right.  Both the democrats and republicans are just two sides of the same coin.  That's one of the many reasons why I am a National Socialist.  Hitler knew how to put people to work.  After the war for instance, Eisenhower was so impressed with the Autobhan, he wanted there to be a similar road network in the U.S.  When it comes to employment, in contrast, look at the U.S.  There are websites out there that say that there are 100 million unemployed Americans.  But as far as I can figure, there are around 27 million unemployed working age Americans. (Though there could be more)  There is also an almost equal number of Americans who are underemployed.

  Taxing people when so many jobs have been sent overseas is also a problem.  But the U.S. can apparently easily afford to kill millions of Americans on pointless wars.  Or spend trillions of dollars doing so.  Or lose anywhere from 300 billion to over 700 billion dollars a year on the trade imbalance with China alone.  Or HAVING to pay 420 billion dollars a year just in the interest of our national debt each year.  But apparently coming up with 2 billion dollars to fight the Zika virus is something that congress can't be bothered with.  We CAN do free health care.  All it takes is the will to do so.


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## krypto (Jun 6, 2016)

vlossforex said:


> It is never free. We citizens pay one way or another. It is either buying health insurance or more taxes. When you get something without paying hard earned cash you have a tendency to waste and abuse those services. Why else to Medicaid patients go to emergency rooms for the sniffles at a cost of 4 times a doctor visit.
> The other factor against this is the government has not run one program successfully or within budget. I really to not wish to leave my health care choice to our elected officials. I had a biopsy on a tumor, cancerous and it was successfully removed at that time. One day diagnosis and surgery. Under other country's National Healthcare I would have had to wait many months or years and would be dead before they got to me.



  Insurance companies need to go away.  Most of those who work in them need to be rounded up and impaled like Vlad the Impaler did.  The useless slimy lying parasites!  Also, just from the waste caused by useless bureaucracy, we could provide free health care to 41 million people.  That would take a big bite out of what universal health care would cost.

  Also, I hear a lot of bullshit horror stories about how poor universal health care is.  But not having universal health care is FAR worse.  In countries where they have it, do you know what the number is of people who go bankrupt or become homeless is for those who can't afford their medical bills?  "0" !!!  As to your "sniffels" thing, it is often a lot faster and easier to go to the emergency room.  For doctors appointments, you could wait a couple weeks before the doctor can see you.  I think that is places where you can just walk in to see a doctor, like "Redi-Med," have been springing up. 

  Another thing is that a few years back there were some tea party scum holding a demonstration across the street against universal health care.  At the end of the line, sitting on the open end of a minivan, there were a couple people holding a sort of counter demonstration.  They had a sign up that promoted free health care.  I went over and talked to them.  It turns out that at least one of them worked for the insurance industry.  He was one of those people who the insurance industry hired to come up with reasons to deny medical coverage to those who had medical coverage through their insurance company.  I guess all the people he financially destroyed and most likely lead to early deaths for was eating away on his conscience.


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## krypto (Jun 6, 2016)

Rambunctious said:


> krypto said:
> 
> 
> > Somebody around here probably already did a thread like this.  And there was that documentary done about it called "Sicko."  But I got quite a few objections out of people with my thread, "College should be free. (for Americans)"  I wonder what they will have to say about me saying that health care should be free too.  And the worse that may be for insurance companies, the better I like it!
> ...



  You are wrong when it comes to health coverage.  Though it may be true for the VA.  But that is a different story.  Also, why would some wealthy person from some European country want to come here to get medical treatment?  Could it be that the U.S. is a far larger and wealthier country than any European country?  With many more universities?

  Another thing is that if you think there is a justifiable reason for raising the price of some drug by 1500%, you are just high.  Money and greed are whips and slavedrivers.  But my intuition tells me that Americans have their shit together enough to still be technologically advanced with a little less of those driving factors.


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## Rambunctious (Jun 6, 2016)

krypto said:


> Rambunctious said:
> 
> 
> > krypto said:
> ...


Do you want new drugs and treatments? Do you want to see a cure to cancer? Do you want well trained and skilled surgeons? Do you want to see a Doctor that is earning a decent living or do you want to see a doctor that is worried about paying his bills? Health coverage will always be better for the wealthy than it is for the poor...it always has been and if you think that is going to change you are just high.


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## krypto (Jun 6, 2016)

JBond said:


> krypto said:
> 
> 
> > Blah blah blah.  I'm not talking about charity.  I'm talking about society.  And your talk of me personally funding free health care, or paying students to go to college, is ludicrous.  Also, your argument about pro-life is pretty far off the mark.  No matter how those pro-life morons slice it, it is always going to be the better argument that it is the woman's body so it should be her choice.  Another thing is that, like it or not, other countries make universal health care work.  If Americans can't, it doesn't mean that there is something wrong with universal health care.  It means that there is something wrong with America.  Which there is.  Many things.
> ...



  Since when is aborting a fetus "torture."  The REAL torture comes into play when you let them be born into such a fucked up world.  I myself wish that I had been aborted.  Fuck this world and every single living human piece of shit on it!!!  Who in the hell are you to condemn somebody to life.  To be happy in this world requires way more self delusion and stupidity than I would care to experience.

  Also, out in the real world, it is far from uncommon for some father to muder an actually born "useless" first born female child.  I knew a girl from Korea that had that happen to her.  Though obviously, the person who tried to bash her brains out was unsucessful.  She only had cerbral palsey from it.

  Another thing is that an adult mouse, cow, whale, bird or whatever knows far better what it is to be alive than some fetus does.  But people generally don't care too much about killing those.  It is the stupidity of not allowing abortions if the mother wants one that should be illegal.


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## JBond (Jun 6, 2016)

Bullets are cheap. You sound pretty miserable.


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## krypto (Jun 6, 2016)

Rambunctious said:


> krypto said:
> 
> 
> > Rambunctious said:
> ...



  You are high to think that we can't have universal health care AND advances in medicine.  Also, in another thread I said that the government should actually PAY students to go to college.  Or to a university.  And the better they do, the more they get paid.  Nothing could lead to greater or faster advancements in medicine as that.  Also, I have never heard of a doctor having trouble paying his bills.  Doctors in countries may not earn quite as much as doctors in the U.S. do.  But they still manage to make a VERY comfortable living.  

  Also, George Washington also probably paid for the best medical treatment that was available.  They bled him to death.  Another thing is that just because the wealthy can afford things that are better than what a poor person could afford doesn't prove anything.


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## krypto (Jun 6, 2016)

emilynghiem said:


> krypto said:
> 
> 
> > Blah blah blah.  I'm not talking about charity.  I'm talking about society.  *And your talk of me personally funding free health care, or paying students to go to college, is ludicrous.*  Also, your argument about pro-life is pretty far off the mark.  No matter how those pro-life morons slice it, it is always going to be the better argument that it is *the woman's body so it should be her choice*.  Another thing is that, like it or not, other countries make universal health care work.  If Americans can't, it doesn't mean that there is something wrong with universal health care.  It means that there is something wrong with America.  Which there is.  Many things.
> ...



  First, what a woman does with a fetus is a personal matter.  Making people who are genetically programed to be selfish to share instead is a social issue.  Which involves WAY more people and has more far reaching ramifications.  Next, go on the internet and look up an outline drawing of an adult female.  Then find a proportionally sized outline drawing of a fetus.  Then place them side by side.  The one with the superior size (and intellect) is the one with the greatest rights.

  Next, because "I" dont have that kind of money.  It would take trillions.  I get about $750 a month.  Next, no.  Paying a small portion of it through taxes isn't paying for it personally.  Also, don't you know that everything is just a pile of shit?  Take taxes.  From what I hear, the first year federal incom taxes were imposed, people got nothing back.  The next year, people paid their incom tax and got most of it back later as a tax refund.  Everything the government was able to do with tax money came from the year before.  And so on and so on.  

  Another thing is that I told somebody that if the government charged you an extra $200.00 dollars a year in taxes to pay for universal health care, all it would mean is $4,00 less in your pocket each week.  Just ask your boss for a $4.00 a week raise.  Then universal health care with shit to pay for it!

  Next, "choosing" to pay some medical insurance company for health care is about the stupidest choice you could make.  Many many many many many many people have lived (but not for as long as they might have) to regeret it.  Next, I don't know of any universal health care system in any country that would deny a woman's right to have an abortion if she wanted one.  And "pay" for it.  Have you ever heard of any such instances?  Even if you have, I would say that they were out of the ordnary.


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## dblack (Jun 7, 2016)

If we can use government to make something free, why are any of us paying for anything? We should make everything free, right?


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## Rambunctious (Jun 7, 2016)

krypto said:


> You are high to think that we can't have universal health care AND advances in medicine.


Sorry the math just doesn't work...the next time you visit your doctor ask him his opinion...I have no reason to lie, I have healthcare for life because of my service. I can sit back and watch it all crumble and just laugh but I happen to care about people and their health care and Obamacare is a bust. California just added Illegal aliens to Obamacare called Covered California. Didn't someone call Obama a liar when he said that would not happen?


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## krypto (Jun 7, 2016)

dblack said:


> If we can use government to make something free, why are any of us paying for anything? We should make everything free, right?



  Most, if not all, the governments out there are a combination of socialist and capitalist.  So it isn't likely that you could form a society where everything was free.  Even though, ants, termites and bees do it.  And they are just bugs.  But all of the most important things should be free.  Like health care.  Though as for college, I would go beyond free and actually pay students to attend.  And the better they do, the more they get paid.  Such as the difference between working a job at McDonalds or getting twice that salary.  

  Also, I saw the filthy traitor Bill Gates telling a congressional committe that they should allow unlimited immigration of skilled foreign workers.  But if that treasonous slime really wanted more skilled workers, there is no better way to do it than to PAY American students to go to college.  Not only that, for skilled American workers, there would be no real other homeland to send trade secrets or military technology to.  At least for the few American spies, they expect money for their treason.  A foreign worker would likely view sich a thing as being patriotic toward the country they came from.


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## krypto (Jun 7, 2016)

Rambunctious said:


> krypto said:
> 
> 
> > You are high to think that we can't have universal health care AND advances in medicine.
> ...



  The math works in other countries where they have universal health care.  Also, fuck asking the doctors.  Ask ANYBODY if they think they are getting paid enough.  Also, in the doccumentary "Sicko," they DID ask doctors what they thought about it.  They didn't talk to any doctor who thought they were being screwed.  Maybe some do.  But I would imagine that most don't.

  Also, the VA is nothing to laugh about.  It is more like a tragedy.  As for Calfornia, fuck them.  They should send ALL their "latinos," legal or not, back to mexico.  And while they're at it, send all the filthy jews there too.  One of the problems with Calfornia is that it is on its way to becoming like the map on the poster that I will include.  And the part that is still the U.S will probably officially be written as it is shown.


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## Rambunctious (Jun 7, 2016)

krypto said:


> The math works in other countries where they have universal health care. Also, fuck asking the doctors. Ask ANYBODY if they think they are getting paid enough.


Check the medical and pharmaceutical innovations coming from those "other Countries" You won't find any. Maybe you will except lousy healthcare but many Americans will not especially when the costs go up again in October. And you say fuck the doctors opinion? that is retarded. They are the people you will be relying on one day to save your free boating life. Hope he is up to speed on the latest drugs and treatments. Hope he isn't over worked and under staffed.


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## krypto (Jun 7, 2016)

Rambunctious said:


> krypto said:
> 
> 
> > The math works in other countries where they have universal health care. Also, fuck asking the doctors. Ask ANYBODY if they think they are getting paid enough.
> ...



  Believe it or not, there ARE pharmaceutical companies in other European countries.  And no doubt in places like Japan.  Where they also have universities.  If you are going to tell me that they too haven't come up with new drugs, I'm just not going to believe you.  As to your talk about lousy health care, I would be interested to know what insurance company you work for.  Or are you just a lobbyist for the industry.  Or maybe you are so involved in the medical establishment.  Who like the way things are now.  Just overflowing with income.

  Next, I didn't say "fuck the doctors opinion."  (And I certainly wouldn't do so in medical matters)  What I said basically was fuck asking "JUST" the doctors.  I said to ask anybody if they thought they were getting paid enough.  Because chances are, they would tell you that they aren't getting paid enough.  Next, if we actually PAID students to go to college.  And paid them more if they did well, any overworking or understaffing would be a thing of the past.


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## Rambunctious (Jun 7, 2016)

krypto said:


> Rambunctious said:
> 
> 
> > krypto said:
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It would be a good homework assignment to search for medical innovations around the world. I'm sure other countries have produced great results in medicine, but I just can't remember any right off the top of my head but I will search.  Free things are never better than things one pays for that is the basic rules of societal nature. I will make you a great breakfast if you pay me what I need to charge to make money from it. But I will toss you scraps if you want to eat for free. Get it?


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## krypto (Jun 7, 2016)

Rambunctious said:


> krypto said:
> 
> 
> > Rambunctious said:
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  I'm not saying that if you pay more, you can't get more.  If you don't have much money and want an egg, you can probably get an egg.  But if you have enough money and want an egg, you could probably get a Faberge egg.  Or at least a whole chicken farm.  But the thing is that if you have smart people hanging around just being smart, it doesn't take a whole hell of a lot of incentive for them to do smart things.  Government can provide plenty of financial incentive.  If they choose to.


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## Rambunctious (Jun 7, 2016)

krypto said:


> Rambunctious said:
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> > krypto said:
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One day very soon you will begin to hear suggestions for changes in Obamacare...it will not work as it is put together now. We will either need to change it or go back to a total ins/work based system. Some will shout we need to make it free... a single payer system but it won't fly.


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## dblack (Jun 7, 2016)

krypto said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > If we can use government to make something free, why are any of us paying for anything? We should make everything free, right?
> ...



This is an odd conversation for me, because usually I'll point out that - despite the altruistic pitch - these kinds of ambitions are essentially fascist in nature. 

But it sounds like you're ok with that.


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## OnePercenter (Jun 7, 2016)

Bob Blaylock said:


> krypto said:
> 
> 
> > Somebody around here probably already did a thread like this.  And there was that documentary done about it called "Sicko."  But I got quite a few objections out of people with my thread, "College should be free. (for Americans)"  I wonder what they will have to say about me saying that health care should be free too.  And the worse that may be for insurance companies, the better I like it!
> ...



*  Such a wish is born of extreme ignorance about the most basic facts of economics.

  It is not possible for college nor medical care to be free.

  It costs money—lots of money—to offer these services.  Facilities must be built and maintained, equipment and materials must be provided,and staff must be employed.  “Free” does not negate this basic fact; if someone receives these services for “free”, all it really means is that someone else, who is not receiving these services, is being compelled to pay for them.
*
You think our current system is better? The majority of for-profit hospitals and Doctors clinics in the US are owned by insurance companies who derive profit from both ends.


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## Arianrhod (Jun 8, 2016)

OnePercenter said:


> Bob Blaylock said:
> 
> 
> > krypto said:
> ...



The best sources I've read indicate that currency was invented 5,000 ago.  I wonder how anyone ever got anything done without it?


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## dblack (Jun 8, 2016)

Arianrhod said:


> OnePercenter said:
> 
> 
> > Bob Blaylock said:
> ...



Voluntary, mutual exchange of goods and services (aka 'free trade'). Money just made it easier.


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## krypto (Jun 8, 2016)

Rambunctious said:


> krypto said:
> 
> 
> > Rambunctious said:
> ...



  Admittedly, with all the useless latinos and negroes in this country, it is difficult to make universal health care a reality.  But it can be done.  Hell, we could probably make universal health care for pets a reality too.  I wonder how many Veterinarians would be opposed to that.


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## krypto (Jun 8, 2016)

dblack said:


> krypto said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



  You should check out my thread "Freedom Sucks."  I am a National Socialist.  Also, take for instance the fascist government under Mussolini.  Do you know who some of his most staunch opponents were?  The Mafia!  Why?  Because organized crime doesn't operate very well under a fascist form of government.  All types of criminals prefer to have "freedoms" and a "Constitution" and a "Bill of Rights" to hide behind.  Granted, a National Socialist form of government isn't my preferred form of government.  But it is something that we have to pass through to clear away all the filth before moving on to something better.


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## krypto (Jun 8, 2016)

Arianrhod said:


> OnePercenter said:
> 
> 
> > Bob Blaylock said:
> ...



  The same way they did with money.  Those in authority said, "you do this, and you do that."


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## dblack (Jun 8, 2016)

krypto said:


> dblack said:
> 
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> > krypto said:
> ...



Do tell ...


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## krypto (Jun 8, 2016)

OnePercenter said:


> Bob Blaylock said:
> 
> 
> > krypto said:
> ...



  Screw your bullshit "facts of economics."  I suppose next you'll be telling me that human caused global warming isn't real.  Get this.  Pharaohs were able to have pyrmids built basically at no cost.  Being god-kings, all they had to do was tell their people to do it.  And it was done.  Paying students to go to college AND having universal health care is nothing, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING compared to that.


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## Rambunctious (Jun 8, 2016)

krypto said:


> Rambunctious said:
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> > krypto said:
> ...


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## JBond (Jun 8, 2016)

Arianrhod said:


> The best sources I've read indicate that currency was invented 5,000 ago.  I wonder how anyone ever got anything done without it?



Feel free to use the education and medical systems available to you 5000 years ago. Good luck with that.


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## Sun Devil 92 (Jun 8, 2016)

krypto said:


> OnePercenter said:
> 
> 
> > Bob Blaylock said:
> ...



This is hysterical......

I'll bet those conquered slaves got finished with one pyramid and said "Oh man...that was great.  Let's build another one".

Or was it the lashes, spears and swords that kept them going.  

I'll be they had universal health care too.

Can you be any more foolish ?


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## Sun Devil 92 (Jun 8, 2016)

OnePercenter said:


> Bob Blaylock said:
> 
> 
> > krypto said:
> ...



You are correct that Obama and Co have propped up the insurance industry to incredible levels and are making them fatter than ever.

Our technical health care system is still the best in the world.


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## JBond (Jun 8, 2016)

Sun Devil 92 said:


> krypto said:
> 
> 
> > OnePercenter said:
> ...



Krypto is just a silly kid, but apparently he is a fan a slavery. Comparing the building of the pyramids to forcing citizen to fund his asinine ideas are related, but not the way he thinks they are.


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## Sun Devil 92 (Jun 8, 2016)

JBond said:


> Sun Devil 92 said:
> 
> 
> > krypto said:
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Given what I've read, she suffers from class envy.


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## Conservative65 (Jun 13, 2016)

krypto said:


> emilynghiem said:
> 
> 
> > krypto said:
> ...



If it's the woman's choices because it's her body, why are the rest of us forced to support what SHE chooses to have when she can't afford the choice SHE made?  If she makes the choice, shouldn't she be the one to pay for that choice whatever the choice may be?


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## Conservative65 (Jun 13, 2016)

JBond said:


> Sun Devil 92 said:
> 
> 
> > krypto said:
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And he wonders why people don't think he's a good "investment" when it comes to funding college.


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## JBond (Jun 13, 2016)

Everything should be free!


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## emilynghiem (Jun 13, 2016)

Conservative65 said:


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Conservative65 Maybe if we started holding the MEN accountable
for the costs they helped to create, we'd get an answer to your questions!


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## JBond (Jun 13, 2016)

emilynghiem said:


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There is a legal system in place to address your concern. What else would you like?


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## Conservative65 (Jun 13, 2016)

emilynghiem said:


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I'm all for the sperm donor baby daddy doing just that.   I'm also in favor that when/if he doesn't, the rest of us by default aren't held financially responsible for a choice we were told was none of our business.  If a woman wants to have a dozen kids, that's her choice.  I'm willing to let her do so.  However, when she can't afford her choice and can't get the one(s) for whom she spread her legs to fund them, don't come looking to me as a money source.  

I address those who say what a woman does with her body is none of my or the government's business.  My problem is when the one telling me and the government to butt out of her choice comes looking for help and wants that same government she told to butt out to force those people she told to butt out to pay for it.  I don't really give a shit if the sperm donor baby daddy helps her or not as long as the rest of us aren't forced to fund a choice we were told was none of our business.


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## emilynghiem (Jun 13, 2016)

JBond said:


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Dear JBond the current legal system only works
after a crime is committed and doesn't guarantee equal legal resources or defense to all people
It isn't designed to address preventing abuses in advance from becoming civil or criminal violations.
That's why we don't have equal due process and protections in this county.

JBond for cases of rape and murder, only PREVENTING them from happening in the first
place would equally protect all citizens. Once your rights are violated you can't get them back;
it takes work to restore justice so you are already unequal to someone who didn't suffer violation.

That isn't equal justice.

We need to support systems of restorative justice that correct wrongs in ways
that DETER and PREVENT future and repeat occurrences.

Our legal system doesn't do this but obstructs it by rewarding taking the Fifth Amendment
and not holding people accountable for the costs and consequences of their actions.

It is too easily abused to deny due process and equal justice as well as other Constitutional rights.


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## emilynghiem (Jun 13, 2016)

Conservative65 said:


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Yep Conservative65 That's why I think we're heading toward
separating parties from govt as political religions or beliefs.

If parties are recognized as having similar status and treatment as religious organizations funding their own agenda, we can argue we don't agree with those beliefs, that should be kept private and outside govt.

What do you say, mate?


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## JBond (Jun 13, 2016)

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Your thoughtful posts are refreshing. Thank you. I want to give the time it deserves and will get back to you. You do raise some interesting ideas.

I can relate a bit. My wife was pregnant when I met her. It was through a forceful act with a violent man she was dating. After we married, I adopted my son and 20 years later he has turned out to be a remarkable man.


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## emilynghiem (Jun 13, 2016)

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You sound like a real Winner, and it's no wonder your son is like you. Hugs to you and your family JBond
If you would like to share your stories, my friend Juda has a website full of them
Home The mothers she helps on there go begging for more positive support.
You bring tears to my eyes, so glad to hear more stories like yours with happy turns and endings!

More power to you!


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## JBond (Jun 13, 2016)

Thank you for the kind words. I've made many mistakes in my life, but that was not one of them.

It was her decision not to have an abortion that truly attracted me to her. She had more depth of character than any women I had ever meet.

It infuriates me when men refuse to behave as men.


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## emilynghiem (Jun 13, 2016)

JBond said:


> Thank you for the kind words. I've made many mistakes in my life, but that was not one of them.
> 
> It was her decision not to have an abortion that truly attracted me to her. She had more depth of character than any women I had ever meet.
> 
> It infuriates me when men refuse to behave as men.


I can see why she married you!!
We need more men like you, before we lose the backbone this country was built on.

It is sad so many ppl don't have a personal role model or mentor to help them through the learning curve. This isn't going to be easy. Some ppl are starting at zero where Obama was the first person who got them looking at all into voting, govt and political process. My coworkers didn't even know the difference between state and federal that is all the same govt to them. Just other ppl in charge you have no control over. (I nearly lost it, giving them a civics lesson in the middle of work that turned into a group discussion!)

From seeing the different class levels and stages people are in development, that's why I believe our best hope is organizing ppl by party and which affiliation represents them in negotiating systems of education and training, services, supply and demand. We can get there faster by working together on teams and departments. Similar to academic campuses. So why not pull together the visionary solutions and reform proposals of all the parties and work out a comprehensive Plan that creates jobs and leadership training on all levels for ppl to access.

We can do this. And I think it is legally necessary if we are going to live up to our proclaimed laws of equal representation and protection of the laws. People are not equal in knowledge and ability to defend our rights and interests, so we must set up systems that assist us in mediating conflicts and offering equal respect and inclusion no matter how far behind or ahead of the curve we are. Instead of punishing ppl who have more resources by taxing them more, why not give tax breaks for freely investing lending or donating to help others learn to become independent, such as mentoring people building schools or clinics to serve the public. So much we can do with our resources and labor if we collaborate instead of compete by bullying and dominance. That approach has its place with defense public safety and security, but internally we don't need to become like the cancer patient whose immune system is attacking itself from the inside. We can do better than this.

If you've raised a young man, you may know the difference between the person rebelling against authority to learn their limits and why certain rules are in place. the adult taking responsibility and learning by reason and choice vs the child who has to be spanked and obey blindly until they are able to understand and comply by choice. This is what America is facing right now. We have become the parents and we're in charge of making the household work when it is filled with family members of different ages and stages. Of course we need to organize!

Thanks for being here, JBond
It's going to be the regular working folks, caught in the middle of these diverse generations that are going to lead from the center. It's on us.


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## Conservative65 (Jun 13, 2016)

emilynghiem said:


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I mentioned nothing about religious beliefs and government.  I simply stated that if a woman gets the sole choice with her body, she gets the sole cost of that choice.  

I have found that those on the side supporting "choice" and claiming religious beliefs are for a separation between government and religion until using their religion alongside government action fits within their mindset.  It's been over a year since I had a conversation with one of them.  He claimed to be a Liberal Christian.  He supported choice when it came to abortion and same sex marriage.  He said that religious beliefs shouldn't have anything to do with someone's belief about how the government should run.  When I asked him whether or not he supported government mandated social welfare programs, something for which I already knew the answer, he said "yes".   When I asked him why, his response was because "it's the Christian thing to do".


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## Sun Devil 92 (Jun 13, 2016)

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Nobody follows it.

A kid knocks up his girlfriend.  She keeps the kid.  Does the state go after him to ensure he's paying child support ?

No.

He's off to the next idiot who'll sleep with him.


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## Conservative65 (Jun 13, 2016)

Sun Devil 92 said:


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It all sounds good to say hold the sperm donor accountable.  You and I both know it's those of us told to butt out of her choice being forced to do so.


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## Sun Devil 92 (Jun 13, 2016)

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She won't give him up.....?

No state assistance.


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## Conservative65 (Jun 13, 2016)

Sun Devil 92 said:


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I'm not the sperm donor means no assistance from me unless I make the voluntary choice to do so.

I agree.  She chooses to keep, either she pays, gets the sperm donor to pay, or not my problem.


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## Sun Devil 92 (Jun 13, 2016)

krypto said:


> Somebody around here probably already did a thread like this.  And there was that documentary done about it called "Sicko."  But I got quite a few objections out of people with my thread, "College should be free. (for Americans)"  I wonder what they will have to say about me saying that health care should be free too.  And the worse that may be for insurance companies, the better I like it!



Let's again drag up this sorry post and bury it again.

The worse for insurance companies ?  What a moron.


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