# Gun traffickers can pass any background check, they are not normal gun owners.....



## 2aguy (Apr 23, 2022)

Bulldog pretends to actually care about criminals using guns....all he really wants to do is ban and confiscate guns....he uses the red herring that normal people selling their personal guns are the main source of guns for criminals.....this is a lie......the guy on your block selling his old Glock to get the new one isn't the one supplying guns to criminals....

Gun traffickers are actual criminals dedicated to selling guns to criminals...like this woman...

*The term “gun trafficking” gets an awful lot of play in the media these days. Mostly because it sounds really scary to a whole lot of people.
---
A Philadelphia woman has admitted to charges related to the illegal purchase of guns for a gun trafficking organization that operated in Montgomery, Berks, Bucks, Lancaster and Philadelphia counties.
----
Williams was among 14 people charged in February 2021 for their roles in the multi-county gun trafficking organization.
*
*At the time of the arrests, Montgomery County District Attorney Kevin R. Steele alleged the network illegally obtained and resold a total of 31 firearms using straw purchase schemes in the five-county area, putting “guns in the hands of people that are not allowed by law to buy their own guns.”
----
Yet we need to understand that Williams here bought these guns by lying on federal forms with the intent of putting these guns in criminal hands. She meant to do just this.*
*
So tell me, what laws would have stopped her?
*
*Permits wouldn’t. She could just as easily have gotten a permit to purchase and still put guns in bad guys’ hands. Universal background checks wouldn’t since she passed the NICS check. So just what would stop this kind of gun trafficking from taking place?*









						Philly woman admits to gun trafficking charges
					

In the process, though, the case gives us a good example with which we can examine the term "gun trafficking."




					bearingarms.com


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## McRib (Apr 23, 2022)

We need MOAR GUNZ!


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## Vegasgiants (Apr 23, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Bulldog pretends to actually care about criminals using guns....all he really wants to do is ban and confiscate guns....he uses the red herring that normal people selling their personal guns are the main source of guns for criminals.....this is a lie......the guy on your block selling his old Glock to get the new one isn't the one supplying guns to criminals....
> 
> Gun traffickers are actual criminals dedicated to selling guns to criminals...like this woman...
> 
> ...


She got caught but by using straw purchases it is much easier to traffic in guns


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## Mikeoxenormous (Apr 23, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> She got caught but by using straw purchases it is much easier to traffic in guns


How can a legal citizen stay under the radar for long if the ATF&E do their job correctly?  Because just like the other 3 letter government agencies they keep failing to do what they are supposed to do, protect citizens and their rights.  Today they are just jackbooted thugs that do the bidding of the far left Socialists.


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## Vegasgiants (Apr 23, 2022)

andaronjim said:


> How can a legal citizen stay under the radar for long if the ATF&E do their job correctly?  Because just like the other 3 letter government agencies they keep failing to do what they are supposed to do, protect citizens and their rights.  Today they are just jackbooted thugs that do the bidding of the far left Socialists.


Man the socialists run everything


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## Donald H (Apr 23, 2022)

2A guy is beginning to separate out the good guns from the bad guns and the good shooters from the bad shooters.

But both shooters and guns are always good until they become bad. Today's angry citizen will be tomorrow's mass murderer. Today's innocent Saturday night Special will be tomorrow's murder weapon. 

But why not turn to finding some answers to the obvious problem of innocent people being gunned down. 
Can more guns really be an answer? Can more traffic on the streets mean less deaths in cars? 

Something obviously needs to be done to control handguns. Starting a long process of making them all registered weapons could be one long term solution, but it would take close to a century to accomplish.

Solutions folks! Not the useless bickering and notions that the government is going to take them all away tomorrow.


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## Blues Man (Apr 23, 2022)

This woman should be up on federal charges but she won't be because the federal government has no intention of enforcing the gun laws on the books


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## Flash (Apr 23, 2022)

No matter what the regulatory requirements are if someone wants to get a firearm to commit a crime then one will be available.

A complete and total ban on firearms in the US would just drive the market underground, just like we see with drugs.

The problem lies withing the criminal behavior of mostly Black and Brown inner city thugs, druggies and gang members, who commit most of the gun crimes in the US and no additional law is going to stop that.


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## Vegasgiants (Apr 23, 2022)

Flash said:


> No matter what the regulatory requirements are if someone wants to get a firearm to commit a crime then one will be available.
> 
> A complete and total ban on firearms in the US would just drive the market underground, just like we see with drugs.
> 
> The problem lies withing the criminal behavior of mostly Black and Brown inner city thugs, druggies and gang members, who commit most of the gun crimes in the US and no additional law is going to stop that.


There is a middle path


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## 2aguy (Apr 23, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> There is a middle path




Yep.....

1) stop voting for democrats

2) by voting out democrats you will keep democrats from releasing violent gun offenders over and over again...

3) by voting out democrats, the democrats will stop attacking our police...

Then, when our police can do their jobs, and arrest violent gun offenders, the democrats won't be able to release them over and over again...

Crime problem solved


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## Vegasgiants (Apr 23, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Yep.....
> 
> 1) stop voting for democrats
> 
> ...


I see.  So gop states have resolved this problem because states have jurisdiction and can pass laws that apply to the whole state.....right?


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## 2aguy (Apr 23, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> I see.  So gop states have resolved this problem because states have jurisdiction and can pass laws that apply to the whole state.....right?




Nope...crime will always be with us.....our problem is that the democrat party, their beliefs, and the policies they create from their believes make crime and murder far worse.......

releasing violent criminals, refusing to arrest violent criminals, attacking the police.....this has led to an increase in crime since 2015....up to 2015 crime had been going down...that did not serve the purposes of the democrat party...


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## Vegasgiants (Apr 23, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Nope...crime will always be with us.....our problem is that the democrat party, their beliefs, and the policies they create from their believes make crime and murder far worse.......
> 
> releasing violent criminals, refusing to arrest violent criminals, attacking the police.....this has led to an increase in crime since 2015....up to 2015 crime had been going down...that did not serve the purposes of the democrat party...


Yet the Republicans have complete control over several states and they are the states with the highest per capita gun deaths


Why?


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## 2aguy (Apr 23, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Yet the Republicans have complete control over several states and they are the states with the highest per capita gun deaths
> 
> 
> Why?




And that lie....do you guys get an email about that?

The Red States that you guys point out all have major cities under complete control of the democrat party.......the democrat party judges, prosecutors and politicians are releasing violent gun offenders, not charging the ones captured, and attacking the police to the point they can't do their jobs...

It is the democrat party controlled blue cities in those Red States that drive the crime and murder rates.......


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## Vegasgiants (Apr 23, 2022)

2aguy said:


> And that lie....do you guys get an email about that?
> 
> The Red States that you guys point out all have major cities under complete control of the democrat party.......the democrat party judges, prosecutors and politicians are releasing violent gun offenders, not charging the ones captured, and attacking the police to the point they can't do their jobs...
> 
> It is the democrat party controlled blue cities in those Red States that drive the crime and murder rates.......


Read slowly.  The gop controls the state and can and do make state laws that apply to all the judges and prosecutors.  They have complete control within the state 

So why?


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## ding (Apr 23, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Yet the Republicans have complete control over several states and they are the states with the highest per capita gun deaths
> 
> 
> Why?


Is it because of this?


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## Vegasgiants (Apr 23, 2022)

HAHAHAHA


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## ding (Apr 23, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> So why?


Is it because laws get broken?  Or is it that criminals break laws?


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## Flash (Apr 23, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> There is a middle path


It sure as hell ain't infringing on the right to keep and bear arms.


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## 2aguy (Apr 23, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Read slowly.  The gop controls the state and can and do make state laws that apply to all the judges and prosecutors.  They have complete control within the state
> 
> So why?




No....they can't......the decision to prosecute is in the hands of the State's Attorney, you dumb ass.....and the judge has discretion in bail, and sentencing.....you idiot....and when the democrat party in control of those cities attack the police and keep them from doing their jobs, they stop actually pro-actively going after criminals...which let's the criminals run free with guns in their pants, instead of forcing their baby mommas to carry their guns for them...


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## Vegasgiants (Apr 23, 2022)

Flash said:


> It sure as hell ain't infringing on the right to keep and bear arms.


Gun control is constitutional


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## ding (Apr 23, 2022)

I bet he says.... Murica.


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## Vegasgiants (Apr 23, 2022)

2aguy said:


> No....they can't......the decision to prosecute is in the hands of the State's Attorney, you dumb ass.....and the judge has discretion in bail, and sentencing.....you idiot....


Nope.  By the way the states attorney works for the state....which is run by the gop


All discretion can be removed from judges regarding bail and sentencing under state law


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## ding (Apr 23, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> HAHAHAHA


Is that HAHAHAHA funny?  Or HAHAHAHA sad?

I think this is HAHAHAHA sad.


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## ding (Apr 23, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Nope.  By the way the states attorney works for the state....which is run by the gop
> 
> 
> All discretion can be removed from judges regarding bail and sentencing under state law


So gun violence and gun accidents are the fault of the GOP?  That's brilliant logic.


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## 2aguy (Apr 23, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Read slowly.  The gop controls the state and can and do make state laws that apply to all the judges and prosecutors.  They have complete control within the state
> 
> So why?




Moron...

*“The first problem is that when we get to the court system, we’re getting no bonds or low bonds and they’re going right back out. We’re putting people who are doing violent crime on home monitoring – on bracelets and they are out shooting people,” the former Chicago police union president, told “America’s Newsroom.”
-----
Graham said people have to be held accountable, prosecuted and held in jail, and the police need to be supported.*

*“We just had somebody who had an ankle bracelet [monitor] less than a month ago. He was out on the street and he wound up getting into a shootout with police. These are a revolving door of what’s going around the metropolitan area of Chicago.”*









						Ex-Chicago police union chief blasts 'revolving door' bail policies, lack of support for cops
					

Chicago’s revolving door policies and the lack of support for the city’s police are not helping reduce violence there, Metropolitan Crime Commission spokesperson Kevin Graham said on Monday.




					www.foxnews.com


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## Vegasgiants (Apr 23, 2022)

3 strikes was a state law


It took away all discretion in sentencing


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## ding (Apr 23, 2022)

Murica


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## 2aguy (Apr 23, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Nope.  By the way the states attorney works for the state....which is run by the gop
> 
> 
> All discretion can be removed from judges regarding bail and sentencing under state law




Nope......you can tap dance all you want.....the democrat party is releasing violent criminals and attacking the police in the cities they control.......


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## Vegasgiants (Apr 23, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Moron...
> 
> *“The first problem is that when we get to the court system, we’re getting no bonds or low bonds and they’re going right back out. We’re putting people who are doing violent crime on home monitoring – on bracelets and they are out shooting people,” the former Chicago police union president, told “America’s Newsroom.”
> -----
> ...


Bond and sentencing guidelines can and do cone from the state which can remove all discretion from judges on this


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## ding (Apr 23, 2022)

Maybe this will make it clearer.


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## Vegasgiants (Apr 23, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Nope......you can tap dance all you want.....the democrat party is releasing violent criminals and attacking the police in the cities they control.......


Actually it is the gop that releases them


You just dont know why


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## 2aguy (Apr 23, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> 3 strikes was a state law
> 
> 
> It took away all discretion in sentencing




Democrats...

*Philadelphia, a city of roughly 1.5 million people, has had more homicides this year (521 as of Dec. 6) than the nation's two largest cities, New York (443 as of Dec. 5) and Los Angeles (352 as of Nov. 27). That's an increase of 13% from 2020, a year that nearly broke the 1990 record.*
*----
Chicago, the nation's third-largest city, leads the nation with 739 homicides as of the end of November, up 3% from 2020, according to Chicago Police Department crime data. Chicago's deadliest year remains 1970 when there were 974 homicides.
----*

'Nobody's getting arrested'​Robert Boyce, retired chief of detectives for the New York Police Department and an ABC News contributor, said that while there is no single reason for the jump in slayings, one national crime statistic stands out to him.

*“Nobody’s getting arrested anymore," Boyce said. "People are getting picked up for gun possession and they're just let out over and over again."*

The FBI crime data shows that the number of arrests nationwide plummeted 24% in 2020, from the more than 10 million arrests made in 2019. The number of 2020 arrests -- 7.63 million -- is the lowest in 25 years, according to the data. FBI crime data is not yet available for 2021.

'It's just crazy': 12 major cities hit all-time homicide records


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## 2aguy (Apr 23, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> 3 strikes was a state law
> 
> 
> It took away all discretion in sentencing




Democrats....

California Democrats hate the gun, not the gunman – Orange County Register

*Now that Democrats have supermajorities in the California state Legislature, they’ve rolled into Sacramento with a zest for lowering the state’s prison population and have interpreted St. Augustine’s words of wisdom to mean, “Hate the gun, not the gunman.”

I say this because, once they finally took a break from preaching about the benefits of stricter gun control, the state Senate voted to loosen sentencing guidelines for criminals convicted of gun crimes.

Currently, California law requires anyone who uses a gun while committing a felony to have their sentence increased by 10 years or more in prison — on top of the normal criminal penalty. If enacted, Senate Bill 620 would eliminate that mandate.

The bill, which passed on a 22-14 party-line vote, with support only from Democrats, now heads to the state Assembly for consideration. 

Republicans and the National Rifle Association have vowed to campaign against it.

Why have Democrats suddenly developed a soft spot for criminals convicted of gun crimes? The bill’s author, state Sen. Steve Bradford, D-Gardena, says that he was motivated to write the bill after a 17-year-old riding in a car involved in a drive-by shooting was sentenced to 25 years in prison, even though he claims that he wasn’t the one who pulled the trigger.



Prop. 57, for example, very deceptively and fundamentally changed the definition of what constitutes a “non-violent” offense.


supplying a firearm to a gang member,

l
felon obtaining a firearm,

discharging a firearm on school grounds*


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## Vegasgiants (Apr 23, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Democrats...
> 
> *Philadelphia, a city of roughly 1.5 million people, has had more homicides this year (521 as of Dec. 6) than the nation's two largest cities, New York (443 as of Dec. 5) and Los Angeles (352 as of Nov. 27). That's an increase of 13% from 2020, a year that nearly broke the 1990 record.*
> *----
> ...


That is Illinois 


Why hasnt Alabama fixed this problem?


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## ding (Apr 23, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Gun control is constitutional


According to the 2nd Amendment we have the right to own, posses and train with the technology of the day that any light infantry ought to use. Today that means semi-automatic pistols, rifles and shotguns with high capacity magazines.


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## Vegasgiants (Apr 23, 2022)

Why hasnt Mississippi fixed this problem?


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## 2aguy (Apr 23, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> That is Illinois
> 
> 
> Why hasnt Alabama fixed this problem?




Montgomery, Alabama....

Mayor, democrat....









						Steven Reed (mayor) - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## Vegasgiants (Apr 23, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Montgomery, Alabama....
> 
> Mayor, democrat....
> 
> ...


And in that same  city sits state government that has complete jurisdiction over it


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## 2aguy (Apr 23, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> That is Illinois
> 
> 
> Why hasnt Alabama fixed this problem?




Montgomery, Alabama....

Mayor, democrat....









						Steven Reed (mayor) - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				





Vegasgiants said:


> Why hasnt Mississippi fixed this problem?




Capitol of Mississipi?

Montgomery....

Mayors of Montgomery since at least 1989....democrat party...





__





						List of mayors of Jackson, Mississippi - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## Flash (Apr 23, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Gun control is constitutional


Tell that to the Libtards.  They have never seem to understand what "shall not infringe means".  More likely they know exactly what it means but they don't give a shit so they just pretend they don't understand it.


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## Vegasgiants (Apr 23, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Montgomery, Alabama....
> 
> Mayor, democrat....
> 
> ...


And in that same  city sits state government that has complete jurisdiction


2aguy said:


> Montgomery, Alabama....
> 
> Mayor, democrat....
> 
> ...


And the gop has complete control over the state


Deny that


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## Vegasgiants (Apr 23, 2022)

Flash said:


> Tell that to the Libtards.  They have never seem to understand what "shall not infringe means".  More likely they know exactly what it means but they don't give a shit so they just pretend they don't understand it.


That's nice


Gun control is constitutional


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## 2aguy (Apr 23, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> And in that same  city sits state government that has complete jurisdiction over it




Again.... I know you are a leftist and you are an idiot....but democrat judges and prosecutors choose who they prosecute and release on bail, or give light sentences to.......you have no point......across the country, the policies of the democrat party have been destroying our police, and releasing violent criminals.....


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## 2aguy (Apr 23, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> And in that same  city sits state government that has complete jurisdiction
> 
> And the gop has complete control over the state
> 
> ...




They don't have control over the cities, you doofus.....that is where the democrats attack the police, and release violent offenders.


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## Vegasgiants (Apr 23, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Again.... I know you are a leftist and you are an idiot....but democrat judges and prosecutors choose who they prosecute and release on bail, or give light sentences to.......you have no point......across the country, the policies of the democrat party have been destroying our police, and releasing violent criminals.....


And the gop can take away total discretion on sentencing and bail


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## 2aguy (Apr 23, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> That's nice
> 
> 
> Gun control is constitutional




What gun control laws?   Please.....explain.


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## 2aguy (Apr 23, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> And the gop can take away total discretion on sentencing and bail




Nope.....the democrat prosecutors can drop gun charges all day long.....and the judges can decide who gets bail.......but thanks for playing....


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## Vegasgiants (Apr 23, 2022)

2aguy said:


> They don't have control over the cities, you doofus.....that is where the democrats attack the police, and release violent offenders.


Of course they do.  They make laws all the time here that over ride city laws


Are you kidding?


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## Vegasgiants (Apr 23, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Nope.....the democrat prosecutors can drop gun charges all day long.....and the judges can decide who gets bail.......but thanks for playing....


Then prove it


States have jurisdiction over the entire state


Facts are stubborn


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## 2aguy (Apr 23, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Of course they do.  They make laws all the time here that over ride city laws
> 
> 
> Are you kidding?




And the democrat prosecutors refuse to bring charges.....you idiot.......we have laws about 5 gang members shooting at each other on the streets here in Illinois......not allowed to do that.......but they can be caught on video, put two of them on the ground with bullets in them....and kim foxx, the democrat party prosecutor simply refused to even charge them........you moron.


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## 2aguy (Apr 23, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Then prove it
> 
> 
> States have jurisdiction over the entire state
> ...




And the democrat prosecutors refuse to bring charges.....you idiot.......we have laws about 5 gang members shooting at each other on the streets here in Illinois......not allowed to do that.......but they can be caught on video, put two of them on the ground with bullets in them....and kim foxx, the democrat party prosecutor simply refused to even charge them........you moron.


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## Vegasgiants (Apr 23, 2022)

2aguy said:


> And the democrat prosecutors refuse to bring charges.....you idiot.......we have laws about 5 gang members shooting at each other on the streets here in Illinois......not allowed to do that.......but they can be caught on video, put two of them on the ground with bullets in them....and kim foxx, the democrat party prosecutor simply refused to even charge them........you moron.


Nope.  States have complete jurisdiction over that discretion


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## 2aguy (Apr 23, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Nope.  States have complete jurisdiction over that discretion




Moron....it happened.....continues to happen.  kim foxx refuses to prosecute gun criminals...over and over again....and shooting people is against the law, as mandated by the Illinois state Legislature...you doofus...


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## Flash (Apr 23, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> That's nice
> 
> 
> Gun control is constitutional


The Supreme Court is reviewing a New York law now that could change a lot of Federal, State and Local gun control laws.

Hopefully they will state that the right to keep and bear arms must pass Strict Scrutiny, like other individual liberty laws.

Having a Strick Scrutiny test would nullify many of the State and Local gun control laws in this country and some of the Federal ones.


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## Vegasgiants (Apr 23, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Moron....it happened.....continues to happen.  kim foxx refuses to prosecute gun criminals...over and over again....and shooting people is against the law, as mandated by the Illinois state Legislature...you doofus...


 Gop states have all the power to remove this discretion


They never will


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## Vegasgiants (Apr 23, 2022)

Flash said:


> The Supreme Court is reviewing a New York law now that could change a lot of Federal, State and Local gun control laws.
> 
> Hopefully they will state that the right to keep and bear arms must pass Strict Scrutiny, like other individual liberty laws.
> 
> Having a Strick Scrutiny test would nullify many of the State and Local gun control laws in this country and some of the Federal ones.


Strict scrutiny already exists.  Lol


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## Flash (Apr 23, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Strict scrutiny already exists.  Lol


No, not when it comes to gun control.


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## Vegasgiants (Apr 23, 2022)

Flash said:


> No, not when it comes to gun control.


Yes it does.  You dont even know what it means.  Lol


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## 2aguy (Apr 23, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Yes it does.  You dont even know what it means.  Lol




No...it doesn't......lower federal courts have not been using that standard....if they had been, they wouldn't have allowed various challenges to magazine and rifle bans to stand......


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## Vegasgiants (Apr 23, 2022)

2aguy said:


> No...it doesn't......lower federal courts have not been using that standard....if they had been, they wouldn't have allowed various challenges to magazine and rifle bans to stand......


Strict scrutiny is used in every second amendment case

U.S. courts apply the strict scrutiny standard in two contexts:


when a fundamental constitutional right is infringed,[2] particularly those found in the Bill of Rights and those the court has deemed a fundamental right protected by the Due Process Clause or "liberty clause" of the 14th Amendment, or
when a government action applies to a "suspect classification", such as race or national origin.


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## Failzero (Apr 23, 2022)

Democommies have Weaponized the Constitution & State's Rights to get what they want .


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## Batcat (Apr 23, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Bulldog pretends to actually care about criminals using guns....all he really wants to do is ban and confiscate guns....he uses the red herring that normal people selling their personal guns are the main source of guns for criminals.....this is a lie......the guy on your block selling his old Glock to get the new one isn't the one supplying guns to criminals....
> 
> Gun traffickers are actual criminals dedicated to selling guns to criminals...like this woman...
> 
> ...


I propose we charge anyone who is caught as involved in gun trafficking as an accessory to any and all crimes committed with the weapons they bought for others. If a handgun the women straw purchased murdered someone, charge her as an accessory to murder.

if nothing else she will not be straw purchasing any firearms for a while while she is behind bars.


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## Vegasgiants (Apr 23, 2022)

Batcat said:


> I propose we charge anyone who is caught as involved in gun trafficking as an accessory to any and all crimes committed with the weapons they bought for others. If a handgun the women straw purchased murdered someone, charge her as an accessory to murder.
> 
> if nothing else she will not be straw purchasing any firearms for a while while she is behind bars.


The gop will never go for it


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## 2aguy (Apr 23, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Strict scrutiny is used in every second amendment case
> 
> U.S. courts apply the strict scrutiny standard in two contexts:
> 
> ...




No...it isn't...you moron.....You don't know what you are talking about........

The 2nd Amendment is about the only amendment where it isn't applied.......you doofus...

The leftist controlled lower courts have not been applying Strict Scrutiny to 2nd Amendment cases...you idiot....

*Generally, the courts have adopted a two-step framework for evaluating Second Amendment challenges. 

First, courts ask whether the regulated person, firearm, or place comes within the scope of the Second Amendment’s protections. If not, the law does not implicate the Second Amendment. But if so, the court next employs the appropriate level of judicial scrutiny—rational basis, intermediate, or strict scrutiny—to assess whether the law passes constitutional muster. In deciding what level of scrutiny is warranted, courts generally ask whether the challenged law burdens core Second Amendment conduct, like the ability to use a firearm for self-defense in the home. If a law substantially burdens core Second Amendment activity, courts typically will apply strict scrutiny. Otherwise, courts generally will apply intermediate scrutiny.
----

Most challenged laws have been reviewed for intermediate scrutiny, where a court asks whether a law is substantially related to an important governmental interest.*



			https://sgp.fas.org/crs/misc/R44618.pdf


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## Flash (Apr 23, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Yes it does.  You dont even know what it means.  Lol


I sure as hell knows what it means.  It is a legal term and only a stupid uneducated Moon Bat would think that the oppressive guns laws that they have in places like Chicago, DC or even states like California and New York have ever been properly scrutinized in regards to protecting the individual Constitutional right to keep and bear arms.

The shitheads that imposed the oppression tend to apply what is known as "Rational Scrutiny".  Not even "Intermediate Scrutiny".

Hopefully the Supremes will require Strict Scrutiny after this New York case.

Here is a little reading assignment for you so that you don't embarrass yourself with your uneducated Moon Bat dribble.









						Second Amendment
					






					www.law.cornell.edu
				




and so you understand the implications of the New York case:









						The Supreme Court will hear a major Second Amendment case that could gut US gun laws
					

The Supreme Court could make the NRA’s dreams come true.




					www.vox.com


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## Vegasgiants (Apr 23, 2022)

Flash said:


> I sure as hell knows what it means.  It is a legal term and only a stupid uneducated Moon Bat would think that the oppressive guns laws that they have in places like Chicago, DC or even states like California and New York have ever been properly scrutinized in regards to protecting the individual Constitutional right to keep and bear arms.
> 
> The shitheads that imposed the oppression tend to apply what is known as "Rational Scrutiny".  Not even "Intermediate Scrutiny".
> 
> ...


Read slowly.  It is used in every second amendment case
U.S. courts apply the strict scrutiny standard in two contexts:


when a fundamental constitutional right is infringed,[2] particularly those found in the Bill of Rights and those the court has deemed a fundamental right protected by the Due Process Clause or "liberty clause" of the 14th Amendment, or
when a government action applies to a "suspect classification", such as race or national origin.


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 23, 2022)

2aguy said:


> No...it isn't...you moron.....You don't know what you are talking about........
> 
> The 2nd Amendment is about the only amendment where it isn't applied.......you doofus...
> 
> ...


Then it doesnt fall under the second amendment


----------



## Batcat (Apr 23, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> The gop will never go for it


The Dems sure won’t. They are pro criminal. That’s why they want to disarm honest people. Honest people make a dangerous work place environment for criminals.


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 23, 2022)

Batcat said:


> The Dems sure won’t. They are pro criminal. That’s why they want to disarm honest people. Honest people make a dangerous work place environment for criminals.


The gop have complete control over some states and will never do that


----------



## ding (Apr 23, 2022)

It's awesome that the 2nd amendment protects the right to own and possess semi-automatic rifles, shotguns and pistols with high capacity magazines.  Freaking awesome.


----------



## Batcat (Apr 23, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> The gop have complete control over some states and will never do that


There are already laws on the books about straw purchases of firearms. If some woman straw purchased a firearm that led to the murder of a member of my family, I would prefer she spend a good number of years in prison. I think most Republican voters would agree with me. We want the gun laws to focus on criminals not honest people. 

If you knew you might end up in prison for 15 to 20 years for straw purchasing a firearm if it was used to murder someone, you might decide not to buy it.


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 23, 2022)

Batcat said:


> There are already laws on the books about straw purchases of firearms. If some woman straw purchased a firearm that led to the murder of a member of my family, I would prefer she spend a good number of years in prison. I think most Republican voters would agree with me. We want the gun laws to focus on criminals not honest people.
> 
> If you knew you might end up in prison for 15 to 20 years for straw purchasing a firearm if it was used to murder someone, you might decide not to buy it.


The gop could do that now in Alabama, Mississippi,  Louisiana.....

They just refuse to


----------



## BS Filter (Apr 23, 2022)

Our society should go back to the old west.


----------



## Batcat (Apr 23, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> The gop could do that now in Alabama, Mississippi,  Louisiana.....
> 
> They just refuse to


I am susposed to just take your word for that? Show me some failed legislation that would have made a straw purchaser guilty as an accessory to any crime committed by a weapon they purchased. 

If you do find any it’s my bet the Democrats voted against it.


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 23, 2022)

Batcat said:


> I am susposed to just take your word for that? Show me some failed legislation that would have made a straw purchaser guilty as an accessory to any crime committed by a weapon they purchased.
> 
> If you do find any it’s my bet the Democrats voted against it.


I am asking you to show me one gop state that has full control of the legislature that has done this


Just one


----------



## Batcat (Apr 23, 2022)

ding said:


> It's awesome that the 2nd amendment protects the right to own and possess semi-automatic rifles, shotguns and pistols with high capacity magazines.  Freaking awesome.


 "When the people fear the government there is tyranny, but when the government fears the people there is liberty!"

Thomas Jefferson may or may not have written this but the basic idea is sound. 

Democrats wan’t to try to make this nation another Marist socialist workers paradise. The only way that can ever work is if they disarm the citizens. 

I don’t want to live under any government run by fools who want to teach kindergarten kids that boys can be girls and girls can be boys and the LGBTQ+ lifestyle is just wonderful. 









						Venezuelans Now Regret Giving Up Their Guns – This is What Happens to a Disarmed Populace | GOA
					

In 2012, Venezuela’s dictator-for-life President Hugo Chavez had his rubber stamp legislature pass the Control of Arms, Munitions and Disarmament Law. The public generally supported it at the time. The law stripped law-abiding Venezuelans of every firearm and round of ammunition they could...




					www.gunowners.org


----------



## Flash (Apr 23, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Read slowly.  It is used in every second amendment case
> U.S. courts apply the strict scrutiny standard in two contexts:
> 
> 
> ...


You didn't do the reading I assigned to you, did you Moon Bat?  No wonder you are talking out your ass.

There are three kinds of scrutiny that can be applied to Constitutional law.

These Libtard States and Locals have traditionally applied "Rational Scrutiny" and that is why they have oppressive gun restrictions.

A good example of that is like in New York with that filthy ass S.A.F.E. Act that prohibits (among many other things) a 30 round AR magazine.  It is like DC and Chicago ignoring the _Heller _and _McDonald_ rulings and imposing laws that they think are rational but do not meet the strict scrutiny that Conditional individual rights must have.

Hopefully with this New York case the Supremes will tell the States and Locals that they have to treat the 2nd Amendment right the same as they other Constitutional individual rights and all these filthy ass gun control laws can be abolished.

You don't know your ass from a hole in the ground about the dribble you are posting, do you Moon Bat?


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 23, 2022)

Flash said:


> You didn't do the reading I assigned to you, did you Moon Bat?  No wonder you are talking out your ass.
> 
> There are three kinds of scrutiny that can be applied to Constitutional law.
> 
> ...


Except in the cases I mentioned


Then only strict scrutiny can be applied you complete moron.


HAHAHAHAHA 


HAHAHAHAHA 


HAHAHAHAHA


----------



## Flash (Apr 23, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> strict scrutiny


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 23, 2022)

Flash said:


> View attachment 635141


Memes!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## 2aguy (Apr 23, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Except in the cases I mentioned
> 
> 
> Then only strict scrutiny can be applied you complete moron.
> ...




No...shitbird...as I showed you, the lower Federal courts are using intermediate scrutiny ......you idiot.


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 23, 2022)

2aguy said:


> No...shitbird...as I showed you, the lower Federal courts are using intermediate scrutiny ......you idiot.


Not for cases involving constitutional rights you silly twat.  Lol


----------



## 2aguy (Apr 23, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Except in the cases I mentioned
> 
> 
> Then only strict scrutiny can be applied you complete moron.
> ...




You idiot....

*Generally, the courts have adopted a two-step framework for evaluating Second Amendment challenges. *
*
First, courts ask whether the regulated person, firearm, or place comes within the scope of the Second Amendment’s protections. If not, the law does not implicate the Second Amendment. But if so, the court next employs the appropriate level of judicial scrutiny—rational basis, intermediate, or strict scrutiny—to assess whether the law passes constitutional muster. In deciding what level of scrutiny is warranted, courts generally ask whether the challenged law burdens core Second Amendment conduct, like the ability to use a firearm for self-defense in the home. If a law substantially burdens core Second Amendment activity, courts typically will apply strict scrutiny. Otherwise, courts generally will apply intermediate scrutiny.
----
*
*Most challenged laws have been reviewed for intermediate scrutiny, where a court asks whether a law is substantially related to an important governmental interest.*

https://sgp.fas.org/crs/misc/R44618.pdf


----------



## 2aguy (Apr 23, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Not for cases involving constitutional rights you silly twat.  Lol




AGain...you dumb shit...

*Generally, the courts have adopted a two-step framework for evaluating Second Amendment challenges. 

First, courts ask whether the regulated person, firearm, or place comes within the scope of the Second Amendment’s protections. If not, the law does not implicate the Second Amendment. But if so, the court next employs the appropriate level of judicial scrutiny—rational basis, intermediate, or strict scrutiny—to assess whether the law passes constitutional muster. In deciding what level of scrutiny is warranted, courts generally ask whether the challenged law burdens core Second Amendment conduct, like the ability to use a firearm for self-defense in the home. If a law substantially burdens core Second Amendment activity, courts typically will apply strict scrutiny. Otherwise, courts generally will apply intermediate scrutiny.
----

Most challenged laws have been reviewed for intermediate scrutiny, where a court asks whether a law is substantially related to an important governmental interest.*

https://sgp.fas.org/crs/misc/R44618.pdf


----------



## Batcat (Apr 23, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> I am asking you to show me one gop state that has full control of the legislature that has done this
> 
> 
> Just one


Maybe it has never been proposed before. 

It is just my idea. I think it might work. For at least 10 years I have been saying if you straw purchase a firearm you should be an accessory to any crime committed with it.


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 23, 2022)

Batcat said:


> Maybe it has never been proposed before.
> 
> It is just my idea. I think it might work. For at least 10 years I have been saying if you straw purchase a firearm you should be an accessory to any crime committed with it.


Think


It's about money


----------



## Batcat (Apr 23, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Think
> 
> 
> It's about money


Quite possibly. Corruption is the name of the game in politics.


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 23, 2022)

Batcat said:


> Quite possibly. Corruption is the name of the game in politics.


Gop politics in this case


----------



## 2aguy (Apr 23, 2022)

Batcat said:


> Maybe it has never been proposed before.
> 
> It is just my idea. I think it might work. For at least 10 years I have been saying if you straw purchase a firearm you should be an accessory to any crime committed with it.



How about we just not worry about what happens with that gun and simply give them 20 years for supplying guns…then work with gun stores and dealers to state at each gun purchase that the penalty for straw buying is 20 years……..that would dry up the market….

Then…..when you catch a a felon with an illegal gun…..30 years…..and if you actually use it in a crime, life in prison….

Thats how you reduce straw buying…,

However, then you will have to be willing to put grand mothers, mother’s sisters and baby mommas in prison, because a lot of criminals use those women to buy their guns…


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 23, 2022)

2aguy said:


> How about we just not worry about what happens with that gun and simply give them 20 years for supplying guns…then work with gun stores and dealers to state at each gun purchase that the penalty for straw buying is 20 years……..that would dry up the market….
> 
> Then…..when you catch a a felon with an illegal gun…..30 years…..and if you actually use it in a crime, life in prison….
> 
> ...


No gop state will do that either


----------



## Batcat (Apr 23, 2022)

2aguy said:


> How about we just not worry about what happens with that gun and simply give them 20 years for supplying guns…then work with gun stores and dealers to state at each gun purchase that the penalty for straw buying is 20 years……..that would dry up the market….
> 
> Then…..when you catch a a felon with an illegal gun…..30 years…..and if you actually use it in a crime, life in prison….
> 
> ...


Why are we not doing this today? Instead liberals want to take away my firearms so I can’t defend myself or my family. All we would be able do is throw a can of beans at intruders If liberals got their way. 

I could care less if some grandmother ends up in prison for 20 or 30 years if the gun she straw purchased was used to murder a member of my family. At least she will not be buying thugs guns while she is behind bars. She can also serve as an example to other grand mothers, mother’s sisters and baby mommas to NEVER straw purchase firearms for criminals.


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 23, 2022)

Batcat said:


> Why are we not doing this today? Instead liberals want to take away my firearms so I can’t defend myself or my family. All we would be able do is throw a can of beans at intruders If liberals got their way.
> 
> I could care less if some grandmother ends up in prison for 20 or 30 years if the gun she straw purchased was used to murder a member of my family. At least she will not be buying thugs guns while she is behind bars. She can also serve as an example to other grand mothers, mother’s sisters and baby mommas to NEVER straw purchase firearms for criminals.


Yiure just wasting your time because no state will do this.  And you need to realize why


----------



## Batcat (Apr 23, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Yiure just wasting your time because no state will do this.  And you need to realize why


Perhaps if enough voters pushed this idea it might pass in some states and eventually in all.


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 23, 2022)

Batcat said:


> Perhaps if enough voters pushed this idea it might pass in some states and eventually in all.


Not in the poor gop states.  Never gonna happen


----------



## Failzero (Apr 23, 2022)

BS Filter said:


> Our society should go back to the old west.


No thanx , Democrats & Kluxers ran things


----------



## Batcat (Apr 23, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Not in the poor gop states.  Never gonna happen


n my opinion it will not pass in Democrat States. Especially those who have no desire to prosecute criminals. 









						California DA Claims ‘Rogue Prosecutors’ Are Emboldening Criminals
					

Sacramento County district attorney Anne Marie Schubert claimed that “rogue prosecutors” in California have been incentivizing offenders to perpetrate crimes with their relaxed penalty policies.




					news.yahoo.com


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 23, 2022)

Batcat said:


> n my opinion it will not pass in Democrat States. Especially those who have no desire to prosecute criminals.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Or gop states


----------



## Batcat (Apr 23, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Or gop states


Fortunately after the next election there will be only a few blue states. Thank you Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi, AOC  and your Democratic Party.


----------



## Blues Man (Apr 24, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> There is a middle path


No there is but one.

We have to enforce the gun laws we have on the books 

Those gun laws are more than adequate IF and only IF they are enforced


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 24, 2022)

Batcat said:


> Fortunately after the next election there will be only a few blue states. Thank you Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi, AOC  and your Democratic Party.


As long as you realize the gop will never do your plan.  But keep blaming the Democrats.   Lol


Blues Man said:


> No there is but one.
> 
> We have to enforce the gun laws we have on the books
> 
> Those gun laws are more than adequate IF and only IF they are enforced


There is no state in the union that has achieved low gun deaths with lax gun laws thru better enforcement


----------



## Blues Man (Apr 24, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> As long as you realize the gop will never do your plan.  But keep blaming the Democrats.   Lol
> 
> There is no state in the union that has achieved low gun deaths with lax gun laws thru better enforcement


Really?





__





						Project Exile, U.S. Attorney's Office -- Eastern District of Virginia
					





					ojjdp.ojp.gov
				








__





						Project Exile - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




_*During the first year of Project Exile (1998), homicides in Richmond declined 33%, for the lowest number since 1987, and armed robberies declined 30%. In 1999, homicides declined another 21%.[2] By 2007, homicides in Richmond were down to 57 compared to 122 in the year before Project Exile.*_*[4]*


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 24, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Really?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Project exile did not apply to an entire state and if it such a success why is not every gop state doing this right now 



Money


----------



## Blues Man (Apr 24, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Project exile did not apply to an entire state and if it such a success why is not every gop state doing this right now
> 
> 
> 
> Money


It could easily have been applied to the entire state.

Like I have told you many times the powers that be don't care if there is violence in our inner cities or that the vast majority of murders are young poor urban minority males.

Our murder rate could easily be cut by at least 50% IF the states and federal governments actually did their fucking jobs and enforced the law.


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 24, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> It could easily have been applied to the entire state.
> 
> Like I have told you many times the powers that be don't care if there is violence in our inner cities or that the vast majority of murders are young poor urban minority males.
> 
> Our murder rate could easily be cut by at least 50% IF the states and federal governments actually did their fucking jobs and enforced the law.


And yet it hasnt been applied to any state


No state in the union will ever do that plan


It is massively expensive


----------



## Blues Man (Apr 24, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> And yet it hasnt been applied to any state
> 
> 
> No state in the union will ever do that plan
> ...


So what?

That doesn't mean that the fact that the law isn't enforced is the real reason our murder rate is so high


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 24, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> So what?
> 
> That doesn't mean that th fact that the law isn't enforced is the real reason our murder rate is so high


It means your plan will never be done


Ever



And thus we need a new plan


----------



## Blues Man (Apr 24, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> It means your plan will never be done
> 
> 
> Ever
> ...


No we need a plan that will actually work.

If we can't enforce the law we already have what makes you think we will enforce a new one?

How much more expensive will it be to keep 300 million people from getting guns?  We can't even keep a couple million criminals from getting them


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 24, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> No we need a plan that will actually work.
> 
> If we can't enforce the law we already have what makes you think we will enforce a new one?
> 
> How much more expensive will it be to keep 300 million people from getting guns?


Well we certainly have established that your plan will never be done.  


We can look at countries with low gun deaths and see how they achieved it.


Guess what they all have in common.  Gun control


----------



## Blues Man (Apr 24, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Well we certainly have established that your plan will never be done.
> 
> 
> We can look at countries with low gun deaths and see how they achieved it.
> ...


And how do you control guns?

Through law enforcement and you have already agreed that we won;t enforce the law because it costs too much


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 24, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> And how do you control guns?
> 
> Through law enforcement and you have already agreed that we won;t enforce the law because it costs too much


We need new better laws.  The ones we have now clearly are not working


----------



## Blues Man (Apr 24, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> We need new better laws.  The ones we have now clearly are not working


They aren't working because they are not enforced and you have agreed that they won't be enforced because it costs too much so why on earth would you believe any new laws would be enforced?


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 24, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> They aren't working because they are not enforced and you have agreed that they won't be enforced because it costs too much so why on earth would you believe any new laws would be enforced?


They cant be enforced to the level you want or they would be.  You admit your plan will never work


New laws that are low cost and preventative can work and do


----------



## Blues Man (Apr 24, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> They cant be enforced to the level you want or they would be.  You admit your plan will never work
> 
> 
> New laws that are low cost and preventative can work and do



They can be we just refuse to do it.

And tell me what would it cost to pass new laws and enforce them?


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 24, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> They can be we just refuse to do it.
> 
> And tell me what would it cost to pass new laws and enforce them?


And they will always refuse to do it.  You keep asking for something that has not worked anywhere 


But my plan has worked in lots of countries


----------



## Blues Man (Apr 24, 2022)

Gun laws that cost millions had little effect because they weren't enforced
					

Researchers says law to expand background checks in Colorado and Washington failed most likely due to noncompliance and a lack of enforcement




					www.theguardian.com
				




More than three years later, researchers have concluded that the new laws had little measurable effect, probably because citizens simply decided not to comply and there was a lack of enforcement by authorities.


The results of the new study, conducted by some of America’s most well-respected gun violence researchers, is a setback for a growing gun control movement that has centered its national strategy on precisely the kind of state laws passed in Colorado and Washington. A third, smaller state, Delaware, passed a background check law around the same time and did see increases in the number of background checks conducted, the study found. But a similar background-check law in Nevada passed in 2016 has also run into political hurdles and has never been enforced.


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 24, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> Gun laws that cost millions had little effect because they weren't enforced
> 
> 
> Researchers says law to expand background checks in Colorado and Washington failed most likely due to noncompliance and a lack of enforcement
> ...


And yet there is no country with lax gun laws and low gun deaths but lots of countries with effective gun control and low gun deaths


----------



## Blues Man (Apr 24, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> And yet there is no country with lax gun laws and low gun deaths but lots of countries with effective gun control and low gun deaths


So what?

I really don't care how other countries curb the freedoms of their citizens

And our gun laws are only lax because we refuse to enforce them


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 24, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> So what?
> 
> I really don't care how other countries curb the freedoms of their citizens
> 
> And our gun laws are only lax because we refuse to enforce them


I know you dont care

You have a plan no one will ever do so it is just business as usual


I actually want to make things better


----------



## Blues Man (Apr 24, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> I know you dont care
> 
> You have a plan no one will ever do so it is just business as usual
> 
> ...


No you don't because you just admitted we won't enforce gun laws.  So what's the point of more and more restrictive laws if we do not enforce them?

Hint:  There is no point.

And telling law abiding people who will never commit any crime that they can't own guns will do nothing to stop crime.


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 24, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> No you don't because you just admitted we won't enforce gun laws.  So what's the point of more and more restrictive laws if we do not enforce them?
> 
> Hint:  There is no point.
> 
> And telling law abiding people who will never commit any crime that they can't own guns will do nothing to stop crime.


We wont enforce current gun laws at the level you want


Dont put words in my mouth


----------



## Blues Man (Apr 24, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> We wont enforce current gun laws at the level you want
> 
> 
> Dont put words in my mouth


We don't enforce them AT ALL and we won't enforce any new more restrictive laws


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 24, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> We don't enforce them AT ALL and we won't enforce any new more restrictive laws


We dont enforce gun laws AT ALL in this country?


Are you kidding?


----------



## 2aguy (Apr 24, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Project exile did not apply to an entire state and if it such a success why is not every gop state doing this right now
> 
> 
> 
> Money




I know you are trolling, but the whole thing with the GOP vs. the democrats...the democrat party is actively releasing the most violent, most dangerous gun offenders over and over again, or refusing to charge them in the first place when they are captured, and the democrat party is attacking the police to the point they can't do their jobs....

You can play your games all you want, but the democrat party is the one driving the violence in this country.


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 24, 2022)

2aguy said:


> I know you are trolling, but the whole thing with the GOP vs. the democrats...the democrat party is actively releasing the most violent, most dangerous gun offenders over and over again, or refusing to charge them in the first place when they are captured, and the democrat party is attacking the police to the point they can't do their jobs....
> 
> You can play your games all you want, but the democrat party is the one driving the violence in this country.


Only because the gop which controls the entire state allows it

Facts are stubborn


----------



## 2aguy (Apr 24, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> And yet there is no country with lax gun laws and low gun deaths but lots of countries with effective gun control and low gun deaths



And their gun laws have nothing to do with their low rates of gun crime, since their criminals get all the guns they want....Swedish criminals use fully automatic military rifles and grenades, they get them easily, yet they still don't commit murder as often as democrats in democrat party controlled cities in this country...that is a cultural difference since those criminals in Sweden  get all the guns they want too......

Our problem is the democrat party, you don't want to admit this, you just want to exploit the violence created by the democrat party to ban and confiscate guns.


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 24, 2022)

2aguy said:


> And their gun laws have nothing to do with their low rates of gun crime, since their criminals get all the guns they want....Swedish criminals use fully automatic military rifles and grenades, they get them easily, yet they still don't commit murder as often as democrats in democrat party controlled cities in this country...that is a cultural difference since those criminals in Sweden  get all the guns they want too......
> 
> Our problem is the democrat party, you don't want to admit this, you just want to exploit the violence created by the democrat party to ban and confiscate guns.


I wish just one year we could get the gun death rate of sweden



Just one year


----------



## 2aguy (Apr 24, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> I wish just one year we could get the gun death rate of sweden
> 
> 
> 
> Just one year




Yeah....if only the criminals that we arrest weren't released by the democrat party judges, prosecutors and politicians....we could go a long way toward that goal....but if they keep letting out the most violent, the most dangerous gun offenders over and over again, and grant them no cash bail, and early release.....it is hard to keep them from shooting more people....


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 24, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Yeah....if only the criminals that we arrest weren't released by the democrat party judges, prosecutors and politicians....we could go a long way toward that goal....but if they keep letting out the most violent, the most dangerous gun offenders over and over again, and grant them no cash bail, and early release.....it is hard to keep them from shooting more people....


You mean in gop states that have complete jurisdiction over this issue


----------



## Blues Man (Apr 24, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> We dont enforce gun laws AT ALL in this country?
> 
> 
> Are you kidding?


So again what good will any more do?

What's the point of adding more and more restrictive laws when we KNOW the ones we have will work if we enforced them?

THERE IS NO POINT and yet you keep saying we need more and more and more gun laws


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 24, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> So again what good will any more do?
> 
> What's the point of adding more and more restrictive laws when we KNOW the ones we have will work if we enforced them?
> 
> THERE IS NO POINT and yet you keep saying we need more and more and more gun laws


But they cant be enforced.  Its to massively expensive 

Other laws that are preventative are much cheaper and work


----------



## 2aguy (Apr 24, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> But they cant be enforced.  Its to massively expensive
> 
> Other laws that are preventative are much cheaper and work




*Other laws that are preventative are much cheaper and work

This....

*


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 24, 2022)

2aguy said:


> *Other laws that are preventative are much cheaper and work
> 
> This....
> 
> *


I accept your concession


----------



## Batcat (Apr 24, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> As long as you realize the gop will never do your plan.  But keep blaming the Democrats.   Lol
> 
> There is no state in the union that has achieved low gun deaths with lax gun laws thru better enforcement


Democrats continue trying to pass legislation that targets honest gun owners rather than criminals with illegal firearms. 

Therefore I will continue to blame Democrats.


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 24, 2022)

Batcat said:


> Democrats continue trying to pass legislation that targets honest gun owners rather than criminals with illegal firearms.
> 
> Therefore I will continue to blame Democrats.


You can blame aliens for all I care.  Lol


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (Apr 24, 2022)

Batcat said:


> Democrats continue trying to pass legislation that targets honest gun owners rather than criminals with illegal firearms.



Let's game this out for a sec:

If the Dems are trying to pass laws, what ADDITIONAL laws should be passed against criminals with illegal firearms.  I'm pretty sure they are 100% covered and everything about them is against some law.  Whether it's being a crime-committing criminal or having an illegal gun.

So once that area is saturated and the gun crime still keeps happening.

What are they supposed to do?  



Batcat said:


> Therefore I will continue to blame Democrats.



Why not do something like SUPPORT a solution to the incredibly high gun homicide rate in the US?  Rather than just blaming the Dems...why not vote in support of someone who actually is PROPOSING A BETTER SOLUTION?


----------



## Batcat (Apr 24, 2022)

PV System said:


> Let's game this out for a sec:
> 
> If the Dems are trying to pass laws, what ADDITIONAL laws should be passed against criminals with illegal firearms.  I'm pretty sure they are 100% covered and everything about them is against some law.  Whether it's being a crime-committing criminal or having an illegal gun.
> 
> ...


Simple answer is to _*ENFORCE*_ the existing laws they passed against the criminals with guns in the past. 









						How five liberal prosecutors presided over crime waves
					

Liberal prosecutors across the country have overseen significant crime waves in America's major cities this year — and have largely stood by their aggressive reforms.




					www.washingtonexaminer.com
				












						Why even the gun laws that exist don't always get enforced | CNN Politics
					

Despite plenty of disagreement during President Barack Obama's town hall on guns, there was one point on which he and his critics agreed.




					www.cnn.com


----------



## Batcat (Apr 24, 2022)

PV System said:


> Let's game this out for a sec:
> 
> If the Dems are trying to pass laws, what ADDITIONAL laws should be passed against criminals with illegal firearms.  I'm pretty sure they are 100% covered and everything about them is against some law.  Whether it's being a crime-committing criminal or having an illegal gun.
> 
> ...


What is this solution you are proposing?


----------



## Batcat (Apr 24, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> You can blame aliens for all I care.  Lol


Which type of aliens? Illegal aliens or space aliens?


----------



## Blues Man (Apr 25, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> But they cant be enforced.  Its to massively expensive
> 
> Other laws that are preventative are much cheaper and work


No they aren't


----------



## 2aguy (Apr 25, 2022)

PV System said:


> Let's game this out for a sec:
> 
> If the Dems are trying to pass laws, what ADDITIONAL laws should be passed against criminals with illegal firearms.  I'm pretty sure they are 100% covered and everything about them is against some law.  Whether it's being a crime-committing criminal or having an illegal gun.
> 
> ...





We do......vote out the democrats...then, the democrats will not be in a position to attack the police, and they won't be able to release the violent gun offenders from jail and prison.......

As you point out, we have all the laws we need.....where it breaks down is the democrats allowing the worst, most violent criminals out of prison and jail, over and over again....

The cops know who the repeat offenders are and arrest them.....but then the democrat party judges and prosecutors release them.....and the democrat party politicians lower the sentences for gun crimes.......

So....vote out democrats....


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 25, 2022)

Blues Man said:


> No they aren't


Yes they are


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 25, 2022)

2aguy said:


> We do......vote out the democrats...then, the democrats will not be in a position to attack the police, and they won't be able to release the violent gun offenders from jail and prison.......
> 
> As you point out, we have all the laws we need.....where it breaks down is the democrats allowing the worst, most violent criminals out of prison and jail, over and over again....
> 
> ...


Your plan is not working


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 25, 2022)

Batcat said:


> Simple answer is to _*ENFORCE*_ the existing laws they passed against the criminals with guns in the past.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That plan cant be done


----------



## Peace (Apr 25, 2022)

odanny said:


> We need MOAR GUNZ!


You need more laws for what?


----------



## Peace (Apr 25, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> That plan cant be done


So you can’t enforce the laws on the books while enforcing the amount of time the criminal was given?

How many more laws do you need to learn criminals do not obey laws?

All you are doing is making sure the law abiding citizen become a criminal with all the laws you pass while the criminal goes unpunished for breaking the law we already have…


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 25, 2022)

Bruce_Almighty said:


> So you can’t enforce the laws on the books while enforcing the amount of time the criminal was given?
> 
> How many more laws do you need to learn criminals do not obey laws?
> 
> All you are doing is making sure the law abiding citizen become a criminal with all the laws you pass while the criminal goes unpunished for breaking the law we already have…


If your argument is criminals do not obey laws and laws only hurt the law abiding then we should have no laws at all


----------



## Peace (Apr 25, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> If your argument is criminals do not obey laws and laws only hurt the law abiding then we should have no laws at all


How many more laws do you need?

You have all those laws and still you say it ain’t enough, so how many more do you need to make you happy?

You are the one saying you need more, so how many more?

It is against the law to buy a gun illegally or sell one illegally, so why not enforce that law?


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 25, 2022)

Bruce_Almighty said:


> How many more laws do you need?
> 
> You have all those laws and still you say it ain’t enough, so how many more do you need to make you happy?
> 
> ...


I do?  Where did I say that?  Let's be clear you know who you are talking to


----------



## ding (Apr 25, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> I do?  Where did I say that?  Let's be clear you know who you are talking to


I for one am glad that you agree with us that it makes no sense whatsoever to punish innocent people for the crimes other people commit.  And that anyone who would punish innocent people for the crimes other people commit are overly emotional twats who will never be satisfied until all guns are banned and confiscated.

So glad we got that settled.


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 25, 2022)

ding said:


> I for one am glad that you agree with us that it makes no sense whatsoever to punish innocent people for the crimes other people commit.  And that anyone who would punish innocent people for the crimes other people commit are overly emotional twats who will never be satisfied until all guns are banned and confiscated.
> 
> So glad we got that settled.


Welcome aboard the gun control train!!!!!!!!!


----------



## ding (Apr 25, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Welcome aboard the gun control train!!!!!!!!!


The new moral majority!!!!!!!!!


----------



## ding (Apr 25, 2022)

Pardon me, but we church ladies don't think you are a good person because you are a gundolator and you gunicate.  We are the moral superiority majority because we hate guns and want guns banned and confiscated for your own good.


----------



## ding (Apr 25, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Welcome aboard the gun control train!!!!!!!!!


Do you know who opposes gun control?


Satan


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (Apr 25, 2022)

2aguy said:


> As you point out, we have all the laws we need.....where it breaks down is the democrats allowing the worst, most violent criminals out of prison and jail, over and over again....



I'd really like to see some documentation on this claim.  You keep making it like it's real.  So please provide some citation on this.

You DO realize that the 3Strikes law that was passed back in the 90's was signed into law by a DEM PREZ, right?



2aguy said:


> The cops know who the repeat offenders are and arrest them.....but then the democrat party judges and prosecutors release them.....and the democrat party politicians lower the sentences for gun crimes.......



That doesn't sound like the US justice system.  The one where DA's have the power to stack charges even when they know they can't get them to stick and therefore getting 95% of the cases to be "PLEA DEALS" which means they are often arresting and imprisoning the WRONG PERSON.


----------



## AZrailwhale (Apr 25, 2022)

2aguy said:


> How about we just not worry about what happens with that gun and simply give them 20 years for supplying guns…then work with gun stores and dealers to state at each gun purchase that the penalty for straw buying is 20 years……..that would dry up the market….
> 
> Then…..when you catch a a felon with an illegal gun…..30 years…..and if you actually use it in a crime, life in prison….
> 
> ...


Unfortunately it wouldn’t dry up the market.  Criminal are criminals because they don’t think they will ever get caught.  Nothing will deter them from committing a crime.  All society can do is imprison or execute them so they can’t commit more crimes.


----------



## AZrailwhale (Apr 25, 2022)

PV System said:


> Let's game this out for a sec:
> 
> If the Dems are trying to pass laws, what ADDITIONAL laws should be passed against criminals with illegal firearms.  I'm pretty sure they are 100% covered and everything about them is against some law.  Whether it's being a crime-committing criminal or having an illegal gun.
> 
> ...


Most homicides are committed by a small number of criminals.  The solution to homicide is simple.  Either lock up murderers for life or execute them.  Once a murder gets caught, he will never murder anyone, except perhaps a fellow convict ever again.


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 25, 2022)

AZrailwhale said:


> Most homicides are committed by a small number of criminals.  The solution to homicide is simple.  Either lock up murderers for life or execute them.  Once a murder gets caught, he will never murder anyone, except perhaps a fellow convict ever again.


The gop will never go for that.  They refuse to do that now


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (Apr 25, 2022)

AZrailwhale said:


> Most homicides are committed by a small number of criminals.  The solution to homicide is simple.  Either lock up murderers for life or execute them.  Once a murder gets caught, he will never murder anyone, except perhaps a fellow convict ever again.



America currently has the HIGHEST PRISON POPULATION ON EARTH.  So your hypothesis does not hold water.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Apr 25, 2022)

Donald H said:


> 2A guy is beginning to separate out *the good guns from the bad guns...*


*This *might very well be the dumbest statement ever made on USMB.
Ever.


----------



## whitehall (Apr 25, 2022)

Funny how Obama's ATF turned out to be the biggest gun trafficker gang in history when they shipped over 3,000 illegal weapons to Mexican drug cartels. Nobody was indicted or even fired even when one of the guns turned up in the murder of a Border Patrol Officer. God only knows where the other 3,000 are today.


----------



## Batcat (Apr 25, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> That plan cant be done


Why not?


----------



## 2aguy (Apr 25, 2022)

PV System said:


> I'd really like to see some documentation on this claim.  You keep making it like it's real.  So please provide some citation on this.
> 
> You DO realize that the 3Strikes law that was passed back in the 90's was signed into law by a DEM PREZ, right?
> 
> ...




*I'd really like to see some documentation on this claim.


O.K.....

New York....*

NY Major Crime Soars. Police Blame Bail Reform.

*According to the NYPD, compared to February 2019, major crimes grew 22.5%; in addition, the city suffered a 7.1% increase in shootings. The city also saw a rise in robbery, assault, burglary, grand larceny, and grand larceny, according to Fox News.

The NYPD revealed that New York prosecutors declined to prosecute 803 crimes in January and February; last year that figure was 527 cases.*

California Democrats hate the gun, not the gunman – Orange County Register

Now that Democrats have supermajorities in the California state Legislature, they’ve rolled into Sacramento with a zest for lowering the state’s prison population and have interpreted St. Augustine’s words of wisdom to mean, “Hate the gun, not the gunman.”

I say this because, once they finally took a break from preaching about the benefits of stricter gun control, the state Senate voted to loosen sentencing guidelines for criminals convicted of gun crimes.

Currently, California law requires anyone who uses a gun while committing a felony to have their sentence increased by 10 years or more in prison — on top of the normal criminal penalty. If enacted, Senate Bill 620 would eliminate that mandate.

*The bill, which passed on a 22-14 party-line vote, with support only from Democrats, now heads to the state Assembly for consideration. 

Republicans and the National Rifle Association have vowed to campaign against it.*

Why have Democrats suddenly developed a soft spot for criminals convicted of gun crimes? The bill’s author, state Sen. Steve Bradford, D-Gardena, says that he was motivated to write the bill after a 17-year-old riding in a car involved in a drive-by shooting was sentenced to 25 years in prison, even though he claims that he wasn’t the one who pulled the trigger.
------------
Prop. 57, for example, very deceptively and fundamentally changed the definition of what constitutes a “non-violent” offense.


*supplying a firearm to a gang member,*

l
*felon obtaining a firearm,*

*discharging a firearm on school grounds
==========
Minnesota...*



colleague Bill Walsh explains:




> The presumptive sentences are displayed in a grid that is used by judges to determine the appropriate sentence once someone is convicted of a felony. The y-axis on the grid refers to the severity level of the crime, from low-level assault (1) all the way to murder (11). The x-axis refers to the criminal history score of the perpetrator.


You can follow the link to see the grid.




> On Dec. 16, 2021, the Sentencing Guidelines Commission will vote on a proposal to eliminate custody status points from consideration for felony sentences. The commission believes criminals should not be given stronger sentences if they commit more crimes while on probation or parole, or even if they’ve escaped custody. That will mean lower sentences for criminals who commit murder, rape, assault, robbery and felony DWI!


*This proposed change would lower presumptive sentences for convicted felons in all categories, with sex criminals getting a special break:*




> Worse yet, sex offenders currently receive double points for their custody status, so eliminating this part of the grid will disproportionally benefit the worst criminals in our system.



*New York....

But now he may have a serious problem on his hands in the form of Alvin Bragg, the newly installed District Attorney for Manhattan. Almost immediately upon taking office, Bragg sent out a lengthy memo to all of the prosecutors under his office, issuing instructions that run almost 100% in defiance of the new mayor’s agenda. Prosecutors will be forbidden to seek jail terms for convicts in nearly all cases. In fact, to wind up behind bars at all, you’re probably going to have to literally kill someone or commit one of a handful of other extremely violent crimes. Oh, and almost nobody will be required to post bail. (NY Post)










						New Manhattan DA promises to keep "emptying the jails"
					

Fly in the ointment




					hotair.com
				




Washington state...*

So why are Washington Democrats offering up a bill in the state legislature to lower the penalties for drive-by shootings? Well, there’s woke and then there’s just plain stupid. Washington state Democrats are vying to become the best stupid they can be, bless ’em.

Currently, Washington law holds that a drive-by shooter should get an aggravated enhancement if he is arrested and prosecuted—and that’s a big if. Such an enhancement could land a drive-by murderer a life prison sentence.

But under a bill proposed for the upcoming Washington state legislature by white, woke ex-con state Rep. Tarra Simmons and her co-sponsor David Hackney, the reduction in penalties is a move toward “racial equity.” That’s right, drive-by shooting _prosecutorial outcomes_ are racist. Never mind all the black and brown people who are the disproportionate victims of drive-by shootings.









						Washington State Democrats Want Decreased Penalties for Drive-By Shooters Because... Aw, You Guessed
					

In July, 17-year-old Tay’Zauhn Burns-Miller’s life was snuffed out by a drive-by murderer.  Just days before, Seattle was riven by a swarm of shootings in which six people were mowed down...




					pjmedia.com
				




*Michigan...*

In Michigan, simply carrying a firearm without a concealed carry license can result in a mandatory minimum two-year prison sentence, but three teens who broke into a gun store in Saginaw could avoid prison time altogether despite pleading guilty to fifteen felony charges.



Remy M. Delgado, Preston W. O’Leary, and Travontis D. Miller are all adults now, but they were 17-years old when they broke into the Showtime Guns & Ammo store on August 2nd, 2019 and stole approximately 50 firearms. Most of those haven’t been recovered, though police have traced one of those guns to the murder of an 87-year old woman last December. Despite the laundry list of felony offenses and the violent crime associated with their theft, however, Judge Andre R. Borrello told the teens back in June that he would sentence all three of them under the Holmes Youthful Trainee Act, which allows a judge to divert defendants to probation. If they successfully complete their probationary term, their record is wiped clean.

On Thursday, the three men appeared before Borello for sentencing, but the public isn’t allowed to know what sentences were actually handed down.

---

Judge Borello, who once chaired the Saginaw County Democratic Committee before he was appointed to the bench by then-Gov. Jennifer Granholm,

Teens Get Slap On Wrist For Gun Store Burglary, Theft

*Chicago...*

*A man on parole for his third gun conviction was arrested near Montrose Harbor after he allegedly pointed a handgun at a driver on Lake Shore Drive during a road rage incident Sunday evening. Police tracked the man down by using CPD’s extensive network of lakefront cameras and license plate readers.*



*Esparza was paroled in September 2020 after serving half of a five-year sentence that he received for being a felon in possession of a firearm in 2018. He previously received three years for being a felon in possession of a firearm in 2016. Before that, he received a three-year sentence for being a felon in possession of a firearm in 2014. He also has a 2009 conviction for possession of a stolen motor vehicle.*

Man on parole for 3rd gun case is charged with brandishing firearm during Lake Shore Drive road rage clash



*Chicago...*



What have you been up to for the past 13 months or so?

If you’re Shemar Barber, you’ve been charged with illegal gun possession five times. Well, he did do more than that. He went to prison for one of the gun cases, but the state released him on the day he arrived. The other three gun cases, including one he picked up Sunday, are still pending.

It all started on June 27 of last year when prosecutors charged him illegally carrying a gun in West Englewood. He posted a $200 deposit to get out of jail on that.

On August 13, prosecutors charged him with carrying another gun illegally in West Englewood. He posted a $3,000 deposit, and a judge told him to stay in the house from 7 p.m. to 7 a.m., but the judge didn’t make him wear a device to enforce the curfew, records show.

Then, on April 22, prosecutors charged him with another felony count of illegally carrying a firearm in West Englewood.

He pleaded guilty to one of the earlier felony gun cases on May 20. A judge sentenced him to one year in prison, records show. Authorities shipped him to Stateville Correctional Center on May 24, gave him the state’s standard 50% sentence reduction and credit for time spent in jail after his arrest, and sent him home the same day.

On Saturday, police who responded to a call of a person with a gun saw Barber on the street and determined he matched the gunman’s description, prosecutors said this week. He saw the cops and began walking away while holding his waistband, prosecutors said. When officers stopped him, he allegedly had a loaded handgun tucked into his pants.

Prosecutors on Sunday charged him with felony aggravated unlawful use of a weapon and three counts of resisting police.

“The state outlines for me a roadmap that is alarming,” Judge John Lyke said after hearing the latest allegations. “This defendant is 19 years of age. Nineteen. Just pled guilty in May to a gun case. So that gives him one felony. He got one year. But he has two other pending gun cases. And now he’s in front of me with another gun case. So that’s 4 gun cases in the matter of about a year.”

Lyke set bail at $250,000 and ordered Barber to go onto electronic monitoring if he can post a 10% deposit. The judge also ordered Barber held without bail for violating the terms of bond in the other two pending gun cases.

Prosecutors did not mention any state plans to revoke Barber’s parole.

Meet the Chicago man who's been charged with illegal gun possession 4 times in 13 months


*California...*



*California on Saturday will begin increasing early release credits for about 76,000 inmates, including tens of thousands who were convicted of violent crimes, as the state continues to reduce its prison population.*

*The Associated Press reported that of the 76,000 who will be eligible for early release, some 63,000 were convicted of violent crimes. They will now be eligible to obtain good behavior credits that will “shorten their sentences by one-third instead of the one-fifth that had been in place since 2017,” the outlet reported. That number includes 20,000 inmates who were sentenced to life sentences with the possibility of parole.

------

“In essence, the bill decriminalizes the use of a firearm in California for the most severe, most violent felonies,” Siddall told The Daily Wire. “What this bill would do is encourage violent criminals to use guns during their crime because the penalty is so insignificant.”

Its passage would be retroactive, meaning some prisoners currently incarcerated on firearm enhancement charges could be released. However, Lee’s office said the bill limits retroactivity based on the crime, and not everyone would be eligible for resentencing. 

According to the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, approximately 40,000 inmates in custody, or about 40% of the prison population, have a firearm enhancement attached to their sentences. *



California Makes 76,000 Inmates, Including Violent And Repeat Felons, Eligible For Early Release In Push To Reduce Prison Population | The Daily Wire

*New York


In December 2020, roughly 20 New York legislators pushed for a package they dubbed “Justice Roadmap 2021,” which included the so-called “Elder Parole Bill,” which would require that “incarcerated New Yorkers over age 55 who have served 15 or more consecutive years be considered for parole regardless of their crime or sentence.”

That same month, it was reported that “New York City has released almost all its inmates arrested on gun charges this year, which police say has led to the city’s soaring rates of gun crime.”

It turns out that policies have consequences. Specifically, New York’s strategy of releasing violent offenders has violent consequences.
-------
The Daily Wire reported on March 31 that a man arrested for a brutal attack against an Asian woman in Manhattan “was reportedly out on parole for stabbing his own mother to death in 2002.”

“Elliot was charged with murder in 2002 for stabbing his mother three times in the chest with a kitchen knife. The attack occurred in front of Elliot’s 5-year-old sister, sources told [the New York Post]. His mother died two days later,” the report continued.

“Elliot was convicted of murder and sentenced to 15 years-to-life in prison. He was twice denied parole but was released on a lifetime parole in 2019,” The Daily Wire added.
--------
Just days ago, the New York Post reported that “[a] knife-wielding man on parole for attempted murder randomly attacked a Hassidic couple walking with their 1-year-old in Lower Manhattan on Wednesday — slashing all three family members, cops and police sources said.”

“The man was released from jail last month. He spent several years behind bars after pleading guilty to attempted murder tied to a violent August 2011 robbery on the Upper East Side, according to the sources,” the New York Post added.
------------

In February 2021, the New York Post reported that “[a] parolee allegedly dragged a woman into the bushes in Prospect Park and tried to sexually assault the 33-year-old — but she fought him off and he was soon arrested thanks to a witness who followed him and called 911.”

“Police quickly caught up with the man, who cops identified as Carlis Clarke, after finding video surveillance of him leaving the building. He was charged with criminal sexual act, robbery, and unlawful imprisonment, according to the NYPD,” the New York Post continued.

Clarke was released from prison just days earlier, having served 16 months of a two-year sentence for a weapons conviction, according to prison records.*



Why violent crime surged after police across America retreated

*Chicago*

Chicago has Wild West levels of homicide.

(Worse, in fact; the criminality and violence of the ungoverned West has been greatly exaggerated, and some of those old cow towns had lower per capita crime rates back when they had no formal government than they do today.)

Do you know what kind of crime illegal possession of a firearm is in the state of Illinois?

It is a misdemeanor.

*A 2014 study conducted by the Chicago Sun-Times found that in most cases, Cook County judges handed down the minimum sentence for gun possession, and in most cases, the criminals ended up serving far less than that, doing only a few months.*

Those charged with simple possession had an average of four prior arrests; those charged with the more serious crime of being a felon in possession of a firearm had an average of ten previous arrests.

Exclusive: As violence rises, prosecutors bargain away gun charges

The Star's findings include:

• More than half of felony gun charges were dismissed, usually in plea agreements.

• Possession of a firearm by a serious violent felon — the charge specifically aimed at getting violent criminals off the streets — was dismissed in 41 percent of cases.

• A change in the state's criminal code that began July 1 reduced the jail time for possession of a firearm by a serious violent felon.

Why the charges meant to keep gunslingers off the street are dropped is a complicated question tangled in prosecutorial will, rules of evidence and sentencing practices written into the law. But when shown The Star's findings, Newman called for legislation to close the incentive to bargain away such charges. It is an idea endorsed by public safety officials.

-------

But The Star's review of every gun charge in Marion County from 2009 to June of this year found that prosecutors — Democrat and Republican alike — dismissed 3,059 gun charges, including 1,508 felony counts. Among those dismissals were 371 charges for possession of a firearm by a serious violent felon.
---------------------

Leandrew "L-Rock" Beasley, a drug dealer with a history of gun violence, took part in a wild and deadly shootout on the Northeastside not long after getting out of prison in 2012.

In the melee, Beasley clutched a gun in each fist, blasting away. More than 40 shots were fired as neighbors huddled in their homes and bystanders were only yards away.

James Allen III was struck by six bullets, including a fatal shot to the head. Yet another name was added to the long list of Indianapolis murder victims — a toll that accelerated this year causing the community and public officials to join in discussions and seek answers to a deadly surge in gun violence.

And, while many agree that attacking root causes such as poverty, despair, poor parenting and educational failure can help, Beasley's case points to a more immediate, more pressing question, one uncovered in a recent Indianapolis Star investigation.

Why wasn't Beasley in prison that day? And what about others like him?

Twice, Beasley had been charged with possession of a firearm by a serious violent felon, an offense specifically designed to reduce the murder rate. The crime carried a 20-year prison sentence. Yet — twice — prosecutors dropped the gun charge, allowing Beasley to plead guilty to a lesser offense and escape a long prison term.
Making such charges stick could significantly reduce the number of shootings in Indianapolis, some criminal justice experts say, because it would take gun-toting career criminals like Beasley off the street. There is little or no dispute about the logic behind the law.

"If you have a violent felon and he's carrying a gun, practically nothing good can come of it," said former Marion County prosecutor Scott Newman, who helped write the 1999 law.

'I'm angry that he was out'

The serious violent felon law has been called "the homicide prevention statute," but it didn't stop Beasley and others.

Beasley, 33, had all the hallmarks of why the law was written. At his sentencing hearing, the prosecutor noted that Beasley had a juvenile record and seven convictions as an adult, with 19 arrests.

"He's had many chances," the prosecutor told the judge.
*Beasley had a long rap sheet that included multiple drug and gun arrests, including two convictions for carrying a handgun without a license.

In 2008 and again in 2009, Beasley was charged with possession of a firearm by a serious violent felon. But prosecutors dropped the charges both times.
Instead, he pleaded guilty to lesser charges: visiting a common nuisance in the 2008 case and resisting law enforcement in the 2009 case, both pleas coming during former prosecutor Carl Brizzi's term.*

Had he been convicted on the 2009 gun charge and received even the advisory sentence of 10 years, rather than the maximum of 20 years, Beasley would have been in prison today. Instead, he was released in May 2012.

Back on the streets, Beasley quickly returned to his old ways, carrying a gun despite the legal prohibition placed on felons. And soon, his gun came into play in a dispute with Allen. The day before Allen was killed, the pair strugg
=====================

Baltimore...

Baltimore Democrats don't want Larry Hogan to rein in gun violence

*Citing their opposition to mandatory minimum sentences, Democrats in the Maryland General Assembly say they are unlikely to pass Gov. Larry Hogan’s top priority this session ― the Violent Firearms Offender Act ― infuriating the governor who alleges lawmakers aren’t taking shootings in Baltimore seriously.

In an interview with The Baltimore Sun on Wednesday, Hogan argued that lawmakers who don’t support his legislation are out of touch with the views of most Marylanders and should step down from their leadership posts. On a table in his office at the State House, he spread out his internal polling results that show residents overwhelmingly want “tougher sentences for violent offenders who commit crimes with guns.”

Democrats in the Assembly are saying that bill won’t even make it out of the Judicial Proceedings Committee, so there won’t be a chance of a full floor vote or debate. Their objections are based on the removal of judicial discretion for a number of gun crimes in favor of mandatory minimum sentences. But judicial discretion is a large part of the reason the city is dealing with a murder rate that’s worse than you would find in some war zones.

The Democrats are also arguing that the city of Baltimore already passed tougher gun laws two years ago, but they’ve done nothing to stem the violence.

That’s a disingenuous argument, however, because the new law only applied in certain parts of the city and provided only one year in jail for illegal possession of a firearm. That was an improvement over the previous average of six months (!) but it’s still a laughably short stretch for most of the hardened gang members.

The same Democrats are arguing that what Baltimore really needs is better enforcement of existing laws. They note that police only made 20,000 arrests in 2019 compared to an annual average of 100,000 when Martin O’Malley was the mayor. Also, the homicide clearance rate has fallen to just 32%. But why not do both?

The Baltimore PD released data showing that the average homicide suspect arrested in Baltimore has eight previous arrests.

They don’t have the resources to closely monitor all of the violent criminals who are out on parole, so the same shooters wind up being arrested over and over again.

They believe that fewer than 100 gang members are responsible for the lion’s share of the murders in the city, but they can’t keep them off the streets.*

*Virginia..*

VA Dems Make It Clear: It's About Guns, Not Crime

*Virginia Democrats on Thursday evening killed a bill that would have done more to reduce violent crime in the state’s hardest hit cities than any of Gov. Ralph Northam’s proposals, making it clear that their agenda isn’t about saving lives, but restricting rights.

HB1617, authored by Republican Del. Jason Miyares, a former prosecutor, would have provided grant money to cities in order to implement two programs; Project Ceasefire and Project Exile.


The two programs work in conjunction with each other, both targeting the cities most violent and prolific offenders. Those individuals are given a choice. They can stop shooting, in which case they can work with the Ceasefire folks to help put their life on the right path, whether it’s through a GED program, job training, an apprenticeship, and the like. Or, if they keep shooting, they’ll be dealing with the men and women in Project Exile, and their cases are going to be referred to federal court where they’ll be facing long prison sentences without the possibility of early release.

“You’re going to stop shooting. We’ll help you if you let us, but we’ll make you if we have to.” That’s the message and the strategy behind these programs and it works, as has been detailed by researchers like David Kennedy, who has helped implement the strategy in many cities over the past twenty years. It works because it targets the people who are actually committing violent crimes. In many cases, these most likely to offend are also the most likely to be victimized. They’re responsible for a disproportionate amount of crime and tragedy in the communities they live and prey upon. But many of them are not beyond redemption, and lives have not only been saved but changed by these efforts.

This is the bill that Democrats killed, while passing bills to ration handgun purchases, limit firearms training, establish red flag laws, and even allow localities to pass their own gun control laws. They want cities across the state to be able to put useless, ineffective, and unconstitutional laws on the books, while preventing them from putting proven and effective programs in place that don’t require any new legislation beyond establishing a funding mechanism.

This is shameful. I’m not being hyperbolic when I say that I believe this bill, had it been enacted into law, would have saved more lives than all of Gov. Northam’s gun bills put together, and Democrats killed it in committee. This is not common sense. In fact, it makes no sense, given the fact that the Project Ceasefire model has support from a lot of liberal politicians.*

*Chicago....*

*Court records reveal even more men charged with murder, shootings while free on "affordable bail"

It’s been two months since Cook County Chief Judge Timothy Evans said, “it’s not by magic that we haven’t had any horrible incidents occur using this new [affordable bail] system,” during budget hearings on Nov. 4.*

*Since then, we’ve told you about seven different people who are currently facing murder charges for crimes that they allegedly committed while free on “affordable bail” awaiting trial for charges such as Class X felony armed violence, unlawful use of a weapon, and repeated use of a weapon by a felon.

It’s hard to fathom how Evans would conclude that those murders and shootings committed by persons on affordable bail weren’t “horrible incidents.”

Since November, our team has come across new cases in which men have been charged with killing or shooting people while on affordable bail awaiting trial for serious crimes. Here’s a look at these new “not horrible” situations:

Last February, prosecutors charged 19-year-old Armando Lopez with felony aggravated unlawful use of a weapon, felony possession of a controlled substance, and driving on a revoked license after Chicago police allegedly found a rifle in his vehicle on the 2700 block of South Kedzie. Judge David Navarro allowed Lopez to go home after posting a $500 bond.

While he was out, Lopez got another gun which he used to shoot and killed 32-year-old nurse Frank Aguilar whom he mistook for a rival gang member on Nov. 13, according to allegations in court records.

Lopez is now being held without bail.

In April 2019, prosecutors charged 24-year-old Josue Becerra with having a loaded 45-caliber handgun in his vehicle in Albany Park. Judge David Navarro released him for $200.

Then, on July 23, police were flagged down by a man who told them that three men in a red Jeep pointed a gun at him near the 4900 block of North Milwaukee. A few minutes later, officers tried to pull Becerra over as he drove a red Jeep nearby. Police say he sped away, drove in the wrong lane, and cruised onto the Kennedy Expressway before they caught up with him. He was charged with fleeing and eluding, possession of ecstasy, and multiple traffic violations.

Even though he was still on bail for the April gun violation, Judge Charles Beach let him go home by posting another $500 bond.

Finally, on Jan. 21, a couple of Chicago cops said they were doing undercover surveillance when they heard gunfire and saw Becerra run past their covert car with a gun in his hand.

Police tried to stop him, but Becerra got into a car that sped away and eventually crashed in North Center. He and the driver were immediately arrested

Horribly, the shots left a 43-year-old man in critical condition. Prosecutors charged Becerra with attempted murder, aggravated unlawful use of a weapon, aggravated battery of a police officer, and aggravated assault of a police officer. This time, he was ordered held without bail.
----*


*Is that enough to get the point across....?*


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (Apr 25, 2022)

2aguy said:


> *I'd really like to see some documentation on this claim.
> 
> 
> O.K.....
> ...



Wall of text.  Very impressive.  And the shouty large font drove the point home.

Bail reform?  Really?  That going to solve problems?  Going to get rid of that right?  You will find a LOT of wealthier Americans fight you on that tooth and nail.

Rest of the stuff?  Well, I'm going to have to take some time to scroll through your giant cut-n-paste.  I'd ask you to summarize succinctly but I'm sure you can't.


----------



## 2aguy (Apr 25, 2022)

PV System said:


> Wall of text.  Very impressive.  And the shouty large font drove the point home.
> 
> Bail reform?  Really?  That going to solve problems?  Going to get rid of that right?  You will find a LOT of wealthier Americans fight you on that tooth and nail.
> 
> Rest of the stuff?  Well, I'm going to have to take some time to scroll through your giant cut-n-paste.  I'd ask you to summarize succinctly but I'm sure you can't.




Yeah...you doofus.......

This is what you posted........

*I'd really like to see some documentation on this claim.*

So....I post "documentation," on my claim....

What do you do?   You bitch about "cut-n-paste," like a typical left wing hack.......

And here's more.......from today...

We recently looked at the results of New York City Mayor Eric Adams bringing back the special gun crimes task force of the NYPD, though these days the various units deployed around the city have the much friendlier name of Neighborhood Safety Teams. The Mayor reported that in just the first few weeks of operation, the NSTs had taken dozens of guns off the streets and made more than two dozen arrests. The vast majority of them had one thing in common. The suspects generally had prior convictions or arrests for similar crimes. So that’s some great news, right? Getting more shooters and illegal guns off the street was the stated objective and if they keep up this good work the city should see some measurable improvements. 

*There’s just one problem, however. Of those 25 suspects arrested on gun charges, how many of them do you think are still behind bars? If you guessed “one,” give yourself a cookie. All the rest of them have been sprung. (NY Post)
-----*

*Tyquise Bell had already been arrested on gun charges. When the police found him with an illegal 9mm tucked into his pants, he told them that he had “found it” a couple of days earlier and had never fired it. Nevertheless, when he arrived in court, the prosecutor agreed to spring him on supervised release.*
*
Xayvion Rodgers, 19, and Robert Griffin, 19, were chased down and arrested with a loaded B6C Sarsilmaz 9mm pistol with a fully loaded 12-round magazine. Neither were eligible to legally purchase a firearm. They were charged with a felony firearms charge, making them eligible to at least have bail applied to them under the city’s recently revised guidelines.** But Judge Phyllis Chu cut them loose on supervised release anyway.*
*

Toward the end of March, Marcos Malvar, a felon, was arrested with both illegal drugs and a loaded, illegal .380 semiautomatic handgun. Oh, and he also allegedly choked out his girlfriend. He too was eligible to have bail applied to keep him behind bars. **An assistant district attorney convinced Judge Laura Johnson to release him on his own recognizance. *

*The list goes on and you can read more of those stories at the link if you have the stomach for it.*










						Remember all of those gun charges the NYPD was finally bringing? Never mind
					

It's a long and winding road... to justice




					hotair.com


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (Apr 25, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Yeah...you doofus.......



At least I don't endeavor to run afoul of copyright laws and fair use by quoting the majority of articles.



2aguy said:


> This is what you posted........
> 
> *I'd really like to see some documentation on this claim.*



And I answered with my question about bail reform.  But you don't understand what that is.


----------



## 2aguy (Apr 25, 2022)

PV System said:


> At least I don't endeavor to run afoul of copyright laws and fair use by quoting the majority of articles.
> 
> 
> 
> And I answered with my question about bail reform.  But you don't understand what that is.




Yeah....you are an asshat.............

Bail reform is the excuse democrats are using to release the most violent offenders.............


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 25, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Yeah....you are an asshat.............
> 
> Bail reform is the excuse democrats are using to release the most violent offenders.............


And Republicans


----------



## ding (Apr 26, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> But they cant be enforced. Its to massively expensive


Enforcement of all laws by practicality are after the crime.  The threat of punishment is the deterrent.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Apr 26, 2022)

ding said:


> Enforcement of all laws by practicality are after the crime.  The threat of punishment is the deterrent.


Well sure.
It is impossible to enact a law that will prevent someone from breaking another law.
"How do we prevent criminals...?" is an invalid question.   
You can't.  You can only punish them after they do.


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 26, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Well sure.
> It is impossible to enact a law that will prevent someone from breaking another law.
> "How do we prevent criminals...?" is an invalid question.
> You can't.  You can only punish them after they do.


Gun laws work that way too


----------



## ding (Apr 26, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> Well sure.
> It is impossible to enact a law that will prevent someone from breaking another law.
> "How do we prevent criminals...?" is an invalid question.
> You can't.  You can only punish them after they do.


Exactly.


----------



## AZrailwhale (Apr 26, 2022)

ding said:


> Enforcement of all laws by practicality are after the crime.  The threat of punishment is the deterrent.


Criminals aren't deterred by possible punishment.  They don't believe (and in most cases they are correct) that they will ever be caught.  The only thing you can do to reduce crime is either execute or imprison criminals for the acts they are caught doing. The various Three Strikes Laws were effective at reducing crime because a lot of violent criminals got locked up despite DAs making plead deals to reduce their crimes.


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 26, 2022)

AZrailwhale said:


> Criminals aren't deterred by possible punishment.  They don't believe (and in most cases they are correct) that they will ever be caught.  The only thing you can do to reduce crime is either execute or imprison criminals for the acts they are caught doing. The various Three Strikes Laws were effective at reducing crime because a lot of violent criminals got locked up despite DAs making plead deals to reduce their crimes.


And yet if you want low gun deaths you need strict gun control


----------



## ding (Apr 26, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> And yet if you want low gun deaths you need strict gun control


...and infringe upon the rights of peaceable law abiding citizens.


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 26, 2022)

ding said:


> ...and infringe upon the rights of peaceable law abiding citizens.


In your opinion


----------



## ding (Apr 26, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> In your opinion


In actuality.  

You don't punish people for the crimes other people commit.


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 26, 2022)

ding said:


> In actuality.
> 
> You don't punish people for the crimes other people commit.


In your opinion


----------



## ding (Apr 26, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> In your opinion


If you ban and confiscate guns because of bad actors and that affects good actors.  That's not opinion.  That's empirical evidence.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Apr 26, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> And yet if you want low gun deaths you need strict gun control


In your opinion


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 26, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> In your opinion


Name the country with lax gun control and low gun deaths


----------



## Ralph Norton (Apr 26, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> In your opinion


It's not an opinion, it's the law.


----------



## ding (Apr 26, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> In your opinion


He didn't see that coming.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Apr 26, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Yes they are


In your opinion.


----------



## ding (Apr 26, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Name the country with lax gun control and low gun deaths


Just admit you want to ban and confiscate all firearms.  That is the logical conclusion of your aim to eliminate gun accidents and gun violence.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Apr 26, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Your plan is not working


In your opinion.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Apr 26, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> That plan cant be done


In your opinion.


----------



## ding (Apr 26, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Name the country with lax gun control and low gun deaths


What is the level of gun accidents and gun violence you will accept?


----------



## M14 Shooter (Apr 26, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> If your argument is criminals do not obey laws and laws only hurt the law abiding then we should have no laws at all


In your opinion.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Apr 26, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> We need new better laws.  The ones we have now clearly are not working


In your opinion.


----------



## 2aguy (Apr 26, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Name the country with lax gun control and low gun deaths



U.S and Switzerland, Israel…..

strict gun control and 15 million murdered?

Europe


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 26, 2022)

2aguy said:


> U.S and Switzerland, Israel…..
> 
> strict gun control and 15 million murdered?
> 
> Europe


Just say you was swiss laws for guns in the US



Please say that


----------



## 2aguy (Apr 26, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Name the country with lax gun control and low gun deaths



Brazil just reduced their gun control for normal people and their murder and crime rates have gone down


----------



## ding (Apr 26, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Just say you was swiss laws for guns in the US
> 
> 
> 
> Please say that


What is the level of gun accidents and gun violence you will accept?


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 26, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Brazil just reduced their gun control for normal people and their murder and crime rates have gone down


My god Brazil is crazy dangerous.    Are you kidding?


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 26, 2022)

ding said:


> What is the level of gun accidents and gun violence you will accept?


Was my request invisible?


----------



## 2aguy (Apr 26, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Just say you was swiss laws for guns in the US
> 
> 
> 
> Please say that



No…the Right to keep and bear arms is Right, not a mandate…..in Switzerland they have to keep fully automatic military rifles in their homes……that should be up to the individual…..you fascist doofus


----------



## 2aguy (Apr 26, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> My god Brazil is crazy dangerous.    Are you kidding?



Moron, that is why they finally relaxed their gun control for normal people…..you idiot……their gun murder rates just went down


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 26, 2022)

2aguy said:


> No…the Righr to keep and bear arms is Right, not a mandate…..in Switzerland they have to keep fully automatic military rifles in their homes……that should be up to the individual…..you facsist doofus


Guess where the ammo for those guns is kept



Just guess.  Lol


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 26, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Moron, that is why they finally relaxed their gun control for normal people…..you idiot……their gun murder rates just went down


And it's a hellhole there you idiot


----------



## M14 Shooter (Apr 26, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> And it's a hellhole there you idiot


In your opinion.


----------



## ding (Apr 26, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Was my request invisible?


Yes.  

Your argument is that America's level of gun accidents and gun violence is unacceptable.

I am trying to understand what an acceptable level of gun accidents and gun violence is to you?


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 26, 2022)

You guys would hate swiss gun laws in this country


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 26, 2022)

ding said:


> Yes.
> 
> Your argument is that America's level of gun accidents and gun violence is unacceptable.
> 
> I am trying to understand what an acceptable level of gun accidents and gun violence is to you?


Well I am making a point about swiss gun laws first


----------



## 2aguy (Apr 26, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Guess where the ammo for those guns is kept
> 
> 
> 
> Just guess.  Lol



Nice try , doofus…..the military ration of ammo is kept at their base…..privately owned rifle ammo is kept at their homes…..


----------



## 2aguy (Apr 26, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> You guys would hate swiss gun laws in this country



Yep…..mandatory gun ownership ordered by the government is not freedom….


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 26, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Nice try , doofus…..the military ration of ammo is kept at their base…..privately owned rifle ammo is kept at their homes…..


But not for those military rifles you brag they have.  They dont get ammo for those weapons


----------



## ding (Apr 26, 2022)

Anytime anyone complains about gun violence and gun accidents in America, the first thing anyone should do is determine the level of acceptable gun accidents and gun violence they can tolerate.

Because more times than not there is no level other than zero they will accept.  Which then takes them to their logical conclusion of banning and confiscating all guns.


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 26, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Yep…..mandatory gun ownership ordered by the government is not freedom….


Uh....the swiss dont have that!


----------



## 2aguy (Apr 26, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> And it's a hellhole there you idiot



Yeah, because they had strict gun control….now normal people can get guns and their gun murders are down


----------



## 2aguy (Apr 26, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Uh....the swiss dont have that!



Wrong, dumb ass……


----------



## M14 Shooter (Apr 26, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> You guys would hate swiss gun laws in this country


In your opinion.


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 26, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> In your opinion.


Spam


----------



## 2aguy (Apr 26, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> But not for those military rifles you brag they have.  They dont get ammo for those weapons



Moron…..it is a common round….they can buy it on their own


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 26, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Wrong, dumb ass……


Prove it moron.  That is ridiculous .  There is no mandatory gun law in Switzerland


----------



## M14 Shooter (Apr 26, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> But not for those military rifles you brag they have.  They dont get ammo for those weapons


In your opinion.


----------



## ding (Apr 26, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Well I am making a point about swiss gun laws first


I don't believe you will ever answer the question what is an acceptable level of gun violence and gun accidents.  

That would make you the first gun control advocate in the history of gun control advocates to state what they believe is an acceptable level of gun violence and gun accidents.


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 26, 2022)

ding said:


> I don't believe you will ever answer the question what is an acceptable level of gun violence and gun accidents.
> 
> That would make you the first gun control advocate in the history of gun control advocates to state what they believe is an acceptable level of gun violence and gun accidents.


Of course I will.


When my point is made first


----------



## ding (Apr 26, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Of course I will.
> 
> 
> When my point is made first


No you won't.  There is no level of gun accidents or gun violence you will accept.  Which is why you won't  state it now.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Apr 26, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Prove it moron.  That is ridiculous .  There is no mandatory gun law in Switzerland


In your opinion.


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 26, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> In your opinion.


What?


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 26, 2022)

ding said:


> No you won't.  There is no level of gun accidents or gun violence you will accept.  Which is why you won't  state it now.


Well I was.....but not now


HAHAHAHAHA 


HAHAHAHAHA


----------



## M14 Shooter (Apr 26, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Well I was.....but not now


What?


----------



## M14 Shooter (Apr 26, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Of course I will.
> When my point is made first


What?


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 26, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> What?


Huh?


----------



## M14 Shooter (Apr 26, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Huh?


In your opinion.


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 26, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> In your opinion.


Let's fuck up this thread!!!!!!   I'm in


----------



## M14 Shooter (Apr 26, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Let's fuck up this thread!!!!!!   I'm in


What?


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 26, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> What?


Let's do it!!!!!!


----------



## M14 Shooter (Apr 26, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Let's do it!!!!!!


In your opinion.


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 26, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> In your opinion.


In my opinion


----------



## M14 Shooter (Apr 26, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> In my opinion


What?


----------



## M14 Shooter (Apr 26, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> She got caught but by using straw purchases it is much easier to traffic in guns


In your opinion.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Apr 26, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Actually it is the gop that releases them


In your opinion.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Apr 26, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Yes it does.  You dont even know what it means.  Lol


In your opinion.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Apr 26, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Strict scrutiny is used in every second amendment case


What?


----------



## M14 Shooter (Apr 26, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Not for cases involving constitutional rights you silly twat.  Lol


In your opinion.


----------



## M14 Shooter (Apr 26, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Gop politics in this case


In your opinion.


----------



## Vegasgiants (Apr 26, 2022)

M14 Shooter said:


> In your opinion.


Hey buddy.  Lol


----------



## ding (Apr 26, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Well I was.....but not now
> 
> 
> HAHAHAHAHA
> ...


No you weren't.  I've yet to see a gun control nut state what their acceptable level of gun violence and gun accidents was.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (Apr 26, 2022)

ding said:


> No you weren't.  I've yet to see a gun control nut state what their acceptable level of gun violence and gun accidents was.



Maybe the better question is:  how many is "OK" for you?  Just tell us how many innocent Americans should die just going to the store or the theater or school each week.  Then we can tell their families that they should ask you for a card.


----------



## ding (Apr 26, 2022)

PV System said:


> Maybe the better question is:  how many is "OK" for you?  Just tell us how many innocent Americans should die just going to the store or the theater or school each week.  Then we can tell their families that they should ask you for a card.


None are acceptable to me.  That's why we have laws to deter them, dear.  But there are no amount that would ever make me punish people for crimes they didn't commit.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (Apr 26, 2022)

ding said:


> None are acceptable to me.



Good to hear.



ding said:


> That's why we have laws to deter them, dear.



Criminals gonna criminal, dontcha know.



ding said:


> But there are no amount that would ever make me punish people for crimes they didn't commit.



Sure there are!  You're an American.  We lock up thousands of innocent people all the time!  LOL!


----------



## ding (Apr 26, 2022)

PV System said:


> Maybe the better question is:  how many is "OK" for you?  Just tell us how many innocent Americans should die just going to the store or the theater or school each week.  Then we can tell their families that they should ask you for a card.


So... what is the level of gun violence and gun accidents you would accept that would make you stop pushing for more gun control laws?


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (Apr 26, 2022)

ding said:


> So... what is the level of gun violence and gun accidents you would accept that would make you stop pushing for more gun control laws?



I don't know.  I just know that right now I'm not as proud of America's off-the-charts levels of gun homicide rates as most gun advocates are.  

Personally I don't see a whole lotta need for a gun given that I'm more likely to have it used against me than protecting myself John Wayne style.  Don't get me wrong.  I actually think guns are cool pieces of equipment.  Always have.  Since I got my first .410 when I was a kid.  But I'm no longer a hunter (never really enjoyed it that much) and I doubt my ability to actually shoot someone if I needed to.

I get that other people feel the need to have a gun and that's fine.  But we should probably have many more limits on how many guns you can have (so no one develops a small armory that is ripe for the theivin') and we should know who has a gun (registry).

Overall I think America needs a hard-reset on their relationship with guns.  Too many folks are just little boys acting out fantasies of Western movies.


----------



## ding (Apr 26, 2022)

PV System said:


> I don't know.  I just know that right now I'm not as proud of America's off-the-charts levels of gun homicide rates as most gun advocates are.
> 
> Personally I don't see a whole lotta need for a gun given that I'm more likely to have it used against me than protecting myself John Wayne style.  Don't get me wrong.  I actually think guns are cool pieces of equipment.  Always have.  Since I got my first .410 when I was a kid.  But I'm no longer a hunter (never really enjoyed it that much) and I doubt my ability to actually shoot someone if I needed to.
> 
> ...


It's possible there is no level you will ever accept and that as long as men of ill will do bad things you will always push for ever increasing levels of gun control up to and including banning and confiscating all firearms.


----------



## Cardinal Carminative (Apr 26, 2022)

ding said:


> It's possible there is no level you will ever accept



So the ONLY choices in your world are "0" and "A record level"?

That's great.



ding said:


> and that as long as men of ill will do bad things you will always push for ever increasing levels of gun control up to and including banning and confiscating all firearms.



Just like you do.  You like laws against criminals don't you?  (I assume you aren't one of those wack-job NAP/ZAP Libertarianoids).

What are your feelings on laws?


----------



## ding (Apr 26, 2022)

PV System said:


> So the ONLY choices in your world are "0" and "A record level"?
> 
> That's great.
> 
> ...


That's a weird way of looking at it.  Just remember... you won't go on record stating the acceptable level of gun violence and gun accidents that it would take for you to stop pushing for more gun control laws.

If men were angels there would be no need for governments or laws but since men aren't angels governments and laws are necessary evils.  The problem with legal positivism is that it is based upon the letter of the law instead of the spirit of the law which leads to people only following the letter of the law and inevitable unending loopholes that require more and more laws.  Nothing wrong with laws.  It's men of ill will and low more standards that are the problem.


----------



## 2aguy (Apr 26, 2022)

PV System said:


> Maybe the better question is:  how many is "OK" for you?  Just tell us how many innocent Americans should die just going to the store or the theater or school each week.  Then we can tell their families that they should ask you for a card.



well……over 39,000 people die in cars every year, about 5,000 kids…..so we could start there….

Meanwhile, we had  a total of six mass public shootings in 2021…..total killed 43

Hmmmmm….which number is bigger?


----------



## 2aguy (Apr 26, 2022)

PV System said:


> I don't know.  I just know that right now I'm not as proud of America's off-the-charts levels of gun homicide rates as most gun advocates are.
> 
> Personally I don't see a whole lotta need for a gun given that I'm more likely to have it used against me than protecting myself John Wayne style.  Don't get me wrong.  I actually think guns are cool pieces of equipment.  Always have.  Since I got my first .410 when I was a kid.  But I'm no longer a hunter (never really enjoyed it that much) and I doubt my ability to actually shoot someone if I needed to.
> 
> ...



Yeah….you are a gun grabber.
Tell tale gun grabbing signs…..cares how many guns law abiding people have…..wants gun registration…..the first step to gun banning and confiscation


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## Cardinal Carminative (Apr 26, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Yeah….you are a gun grabber.



Well, I want YOURS, specifically, but you know....



2aguy said:


> Tell tale gun grabbing signs…..cares how many guns law abiding people have



Oh I really wanna put the screws to honest law-abiding citizens.  That's how we roll here in Librulville.



2aguy said:


> …..wants gun registration



Registering a dangerous good is so SILLY!  That's why we love it!  



2aguy said:


> …..the first step to gun banning and confiscation



Oh, we don't use "steps".   We just slide in headfirst.  Take all your guns and THEN we will force you to gay-marry someone and you'll be forced to have a GENDER RE-ASSIGNMENT SURGERY (without anasthesia) and then you'll be found to have violated the law about the forced gay marriage since now you are different genders!  So we throw you in prison where you will be forced to watch the Ellen Degeneres show all day every day!

And don't get me started on the math textbooks we are planning!


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## 2aguy (Apr 26, 2022)

PV System said:


> I don't know.  I just know that right now I'm not as proud of America's off-the-charts levels of gun homicide rates as most gun advocates are.
> 
> Personally I don't see a whole lotta need for a gun given that I'm more likely to have it used against me than protecting myself John Wayne style.  Don't get me wrong.  I actually think guns are cool pieces of equipment.  Always have.  Since I got my first .410 when I was a kid.  But I'm no longer a hunter (never really enjoyed it that much) and I doubt my ability to actually shoot someone if I needed to.
> 
> ...



For me?  I am not proud of Europe murdering 15 million men, women and children after first taking their guns….on the promise that giving up their guns would make them safer…..

I am not proud of Russia murdering 25 million…..China murdering 70 million…..the Cambodian mass murder or the Armenian mass murder….

many one of those acts by governments is more murder than 82 years of gun murder….criminals killing criminals…in the U.S…….

Spare us your preaching about the U.S.


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## Cardinal Carminative (Apr 26, 2022)

2aguy said:


> well……over 39,000 people die in cars every year, about 5,000 kids…..so we could start there….



BAN ALL THE CARS!  That sounds super cool.  And it will save the environment too!  It's a TWOFER!



2aguy said:


> Meanwhile, we had  a total of six mass public shootings in 2021…..total killed 43



Gosh that sounds wrong.  But if you say so then I'll believe that 6 = 693 (the actual number of mass shootings in 2021) and 43=703 (the actual number of dead people from those mass shootings in 2021).

New math is so cool!



2aguy said:


> Hmmmmm….which number is bigger?



Well given that now 6=693 and 43 = 703 I'm going to have to get out the ol' abacus to figgur out what numbers are bigger and smaller in general!


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## 2aguy (Apr 26, 2022)

PV System said:


> BAN ALL THE CARS!  That sounds super cool.  And it will save the environment too!  It's a TWOFER!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Okay...now I am going to school you by posting actual information...please do not bitch because I post the information......

US mass shootings, 1982–2022: Data from Mother Jones’ investigation

Dating back to at least 2005, the FBI and leading criminologists essentially defined a mass shooting as a single attack in a public place in which four or more victims were killed. We adopted that baseline for fatalities when we gathered data in 2012 on three decades worth of cases. 
-------


Here is a description of the criteria we use:

The perpetrator took the lives of at least four people. A 2008 FBI report identifies an individual as a mass murderer—versus a spree killer or a serial killer—if he kills four or more people in a single incident (not including himself), typically in a single location. (*In 2013, the US government’s fatality baseline was revised down to three; our database reflects this change beginning from Jan. 2013, as detailed above.)
The killings were carried out by a lone shooter. (Except in the case of the Columbine massacre and the Westside Middle School killings, which involved two shooters.)
The shootings occurred in a public place. (Except in the case of a party on private property in Crandon, Wisconsin, and another in Seattle, where crowds of strangers had gathered, essentially constituting a public crowd.)* Crimes primarily related to gang activity or armed robbery are not included, nor are mass killings that took place in private homes (often stemming from domestic violence).*
Perpetrators who died or were wounded during the attack are not included in the victim tallies.
We included a handful of cases also known as “spree killings“—cases in which the killings occurred in more than one location, but still over a short period of time, that otherwise fit the above criteria.
----------------------
Our research focused on indiscriminate rampages in public places resulting in four or more victims killed by the attacker. We exclude shootings stemming from more conventionally motivated crimes such as armed robbery or gang violence. (Or in which the perpetrators have not been identified.) Other news outlets and researchers have since published larger tallies that include a wide range of gun crimes in which four or more people have been either wounded or killed. While those larger datasets of multiple-victim shootings are useful for studying the broader problem of gun violence, our investigation provides an in-depth look at a distinct phenomenon—from the firearms used and mental health factors to the growing copycat problem. Tracking mass shootings is complex; we believe ours is the most useful approach for studying this specific phenomenon.



---------
The actual number of mass shootings from Mother Jones......

Here you go...the number of mass public shootings according to Mother Jones...rabid, anti gun, left wing news source.....not the NRA...

The list below comes from the old definition of 4 killed to make a shooting a mass shooting...if you now go to the link there are more than listed below...but that is because Mother Jones changed the list from the time I first posted it...and changed to obama's new standard of only 3 dead to make a mass shooting...



US Mass Shootings, 1982-2015: Data From Mother Jones' Investigation

*2021...6*
2020....2

2019....10

2018... 12

2017:  11 ( 5 according to the old standard)

2016....6

2015....4 ( obama's new standard....7)

2014....2 (4)

2013....5

2012....7

2011....3

2010....1

2009....4

2008....3

2007....4

2006....3

2005...2

2004....1

2003...1

2002 not listed so more than likely 0

2001....1

2000....1

1999....5

1998...3

1997....2

1996....1

1995...1

1994...1

1993...4

1992...2

1991...3

1990...1

1989...2

1988....1

1987...1

1986...1

1985... not listed so probably 0

1984...2

1983...not listed so probably 0

1982...1
US Mass Shootings, 1982-2015: Data From Mother Jones' Investigation

*US Mass Shootings, 1982-2015: Data From Mother Jones' Investigation*




330 million Americans......how many committed mass public shootings in 2021....

6

How many did they murder....

43

*Deer kill 200 people a year.....

Lawn mowers between 90-100 people a year....

Ladders 300 people a year....

bathtubs 350 people a year...

Cars killed over 39,000 people in 2019...

So....6 people in a country of over 330 million committed mass public shootings....and for this, you think we should ban 600 million guns...?


 Total number of people killed in mass public shootings by year...

*
*2021...43*
2020....5
2019....73
2018.....93
2017........117
*2016......71*
2015......37
2014..... 9
2013..... 36
2012..... 72
2011..... 19
2010....9
2009...39
2008...18
2007...54
2006...21
2005...17
2004...5
2003...7
2002...not listed by mother jones
2001...5
2000...7
1999...42
1998...14
1997...9
1996...6
1995...6
1994....5
1993...23
1992...9
1991...35
1990...10
1989...15
1988...7
1987...6
1986...15
1985...(none listed)
1984...28
1983 (none listed)
1982...8


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## Cardinal Carminative (Apr 26, 2022)

2aguy said:


> For me?  I am not proud of Europe murdering 15 million men, women and children after first taking their guns



That's a great canard.  Top shelf.

If Prezident For Life Biden wanted your guns, he'd take your guns.  Your guns are no match for the US military and Americans aren't as "battlehardened" as insurrectionists and terrorists like the Taliban who have lived in caves for decades now.  

So let's dispense with the exciting imaginary threats you see coming.



2aguy said:


> ….on the promise that giving up their guns would make them safer…..



I kinda doubt that Hitler sold his initial gun laws (aimed exclusively at the Jews' ability to own guns, not all Germans) was "sold" to them in any way.  I don't think the Nazis cared what the Jews thought.



2aguy said:


> many one of those acts by governments is more murder than 82 years of gun murder….criminals killing criminals…in the U.S…….
> 
> Spare us your preaching about the U.S.



So in return for a "safe" society that isn't like the Khmer Rouge we have to ACCEPT *world-leading levels of gun homicides*?

I don't think that's necessarily the only choice we have.


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## 2aguy (Apr 26, 2022)

PV System said:


> BAN ALL THE CARS!  That sounds super cool.  And it will save the environment too!  It's a TWOFER!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




And you are a moron....you are a gun grabber....you have sucked up all the anti-gun propaganda, now you play the....I just want common sense gun control B.S.............


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## 2aguy (Apr 26, 2022)

PV System said:


> That's a great canard.  Top shelf.
> 
> If Prezident For Life Biden wanted your guns, he'd take your guns.  Your guns are no match for the US military and Americans aren't as "battlehardened" as insurrectionists and terrorists like the Taliban who have lived in caves for decades now.
> 
> ...




And the next anti-gun fanatic position......

Armed Americans couldn't resist the U.S. government...

Wow....haven't heard that one before........please, you need to explain that to the Vietnamese, and most Recently the Afghanistani mujahadeen.........


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## 2aguy (Apr 26, 2022)

PV System said:


> That's a great canard.  Top shelf.
> 
> If Prezident For Life Biden wanted your guns, he'd take your guns.  Your guns are no match for the US military and Americans aren't as "battlehardened" as insurrectionists and terrorists like the Taliban who have lived in caves for decades now.
> 
> ...



*I kinda doubt that Hitler sold his initial gun laws (aimed exclusively at the Jews' ability to own guns, not all Germans) was "sold" to them in any way.  I don't think the Nazis cared what the Jews thought.

He didn't...you gun grabbing fascist....the Weimar Government sold the gun grabbing for safety lie in the 1920s when they began to ban and register guns......the national socialists simply used the registration lists created in the 20s to disarm the people they planned on murdering...*

*You know, the gun registration lists that you support...*


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## Cardinal Carminative (Apr 26, 2022)

2aguy said:


> And you are a moron



That's the beauty of it!  I'm an absolute moron!  I'm about as dumb as a box of hammers!  LOL.  The only problem is *my vote counts as much as yours!*

Isn't democracy fun?



2aguy said:


> ....you are a gun grabber.



"All the time they want to take your gat
The gun grabbers (gun grabbers)
(They smilin' in your buns)
All the time, they want to take your guns
The gun grabbers (gun grabbers)
All you fellas who have someone and you really care, yeah, yeah
Then it's all of you fellas who better beware, yeah, yeah"




2aguy said:


> ...you have sucked up all the anti-gun propaganda, now you play the....I just want common sense gun control B.S.............



Nope.  Common sense is not part of the conversation with you lot.


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## 2aguy (Apr 26, 2022)

PV System said:


> That's a great canard.  Top shelf.
> 
> If Prezident For Life Biden wanted your guns, he'd take your guns.  Your guns are no match for the US military and Americans aren't as "battlehardened" as insurrectionists and terrorists like the Taliban who have lived in caves for decades now.
> 
> ...




We don't accept the levels of gun murder in democrat party controlled cities...but the people who vote for democrats seem to want those levels to stay high.......the democrat party is attacking the police as policy....and releasing the most violent, most dangerous criminals over and over again....


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## 2aguy (Apr 26, 2022)

PV System said:


> That's the beauty of it!  I'm an absolute moron!  I'm about as dumb as a box of hammers!  LOL.  The only problem is *my vote counts as much as yours!*
> 
> Isn't democracy fun?
> 
> ...




And you keep pulling off the mask...thank you......it is always so annoying when gun grabbing fascists like you pretend to not be gun grabbing fascists....


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## Cardinal Carminative (Apr 26, 2022)

2aguy said:


> And the next anti-gun fanatic position......
> 
> Armed Americans couldn't resist the U.S. government...
> 
> Wow....haven't heard that one before........please, you need to explain that to the Vietnamese, and most Recently the Afghanistani mujahadeen.........



LOL.  The VietCong lived in appalling conditions wild in the jungle, the Mujahedeen lived in a 4th world hellscape blasted out by the SOviets and every other empire before them.

The US Gravy Seals who stormed the Capital on Jan 6 to RESCUE THE STOLEN ELECTION lasted an afternoon before they had to get home for some Pabst and reruns of Hee Haw.

LOL


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## 2aguy (Apr 26, 2022)

PV System said:


> That's the beauty of it!  I'm an absolute moron!  I'm about as dumb as a box of hammers!  LOL.  The only problem is *my vote counts as much as yours!*
> 
> Isn't democracy fun?
> 
> ...




Of course...you have no response to the Mother Jones, Mass public shooting database....considering Mother Jones is just as anti-gun as you are.....yet they do keep a good list of actual mass public shootings........


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## 2aguy (Apr 26, 2022)

PV System said:


> LOL.  The VietCong lived in appalling conditions wild in the jungle, the Mujahedeen lived in a 4th world hellscape blasted out by the SOviets and every other empire before them.
> 
> The US Gravy Seals who stormed the Capital on Jan 6 to RESCUE THE STOLEN ELECTION lasted an afternoon before they had to get home for some Pabst and reruns of Hee Haw.
> 
> LOL




And you pull the mask right off....again, thanks........doesn't it get tiring for you pretending to be a normal human being when you are just another fascist?


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## Cardinal Carminative (Apr 26, 2022)

2aguy said:


> And you keep pulling off the mask...thank you......it is always so annoying when gun grabbing fascists like you pretend to not be gun grabbing fascists....



Well, I'm not really a "fascist".  I prefer unformed proto-dictator-for-life.  But we can quibble over other things.


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## Cardinal Carminative (Apr 26, 2022)

2aguy said:


> Of course...you have no response to the Mother Jones, Mass public shooting database....considering Mother Jones is just as anti-gun as you are.....yet they do keep a good list of actual mass public shootings........



Sure.  Fine.  Good for them.


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## Cardinal Carminative (Apr 26, 2022)

2aguy said:


> We don't accept the levels of gun murder in democrat party controlled cities...but the people who vote for democrats seem to want those levels to stay high.......the democrat party is attacking the police as policy....and releasing the most violent, most dangerous criminals over and over again....



Well you guys just stay in your Super Conservative Enclaves of Safety.  Meanwhile outside will rage the wild mobs of BLM and Antifa burning it all to the ground.

LOL.

I wish there was a way to monetize your fears.  Wait, there is!  Alex J. and Joe Pags and Glenn Beck all know how to bilk the yokels with ads!  Excellent!


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## ding (Apr 26, 2022)

PV System said:


> Well you guys just stay in your Super Conservative Enclaves of Safety.  Meanwhile outside will rage the wild mobs of BLM and Antifa burning it all to the ground.
> 
> LOL.
> 
> I wish there was a way to monetize your fears.  Wait, there is!  Alex J. and Joe Pags and Glenn Beck all know how to bilk the yokels with ads!  Excellent!


What is the level of gun violence and gun accidents you would accept that would make you stop pushing for more gun control laws?


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## M14 Shooter (Apr 26, 2022)

ding said:


> No you weren't.  I've yet to see a gun control nut state what their acceptable level of gun violence and gun accidents was.


Because they know if they do, there might be a time where they stop pushing for more gun control.
And they have no intention to stop pushing for more gun control.


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## AZrailwhale (May 11, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> And yet if you want low gun deaths you need strict gun control


Only if the only deaths that matter to you are gun deaths.  If you somehow magically got rid of all guns in the US, criminals would just use something else to rob and kill their victims.  We need criminal control, not gun control.  There are certainly in excess of a hundred-million-gun owners in the USA that never even point their firearms at another person.  The kind of gun control you want will only impact them, not criminals.


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## AZrailwhale (May 11, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> Guess where the ammo for those guns is kept
> 
> 
> 
> Just guess.  Lol


In the home right alongside the Assault Rifle or Machine Gun.  Of course, it's sealed in shrink-wrap, so usage or pilferage is easily detected.
edit: there is a change, most reservist's ISSUE ammo is now secured at a base or armory, but they can still buy and possess ammo for their weapons at heir own expense.


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## AZrailwhale (May 11, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> But not for those military rifles you brag they have.  They dont get ammo for those weapons


Except they can buy the same caliber of ammo and have it on hand.  The Swiss use common NATO ammo, 9mm, 5.56mm and 7.62mm.  All three calibers are commonly available to civilians.


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## AZrailwhale (May 11, 2022)

Cardinal Carminative said:


> LOL.  The VietCong lived in appalling conditions wild in the jungle, the Mujahedeen lived in a 4th world hellscape blasted out by the SOviets and every other empire before them.
> 
> The US Gravy Seals who stormed the Capital on Jan 6 to RESCUE THE STOLEN ELECTION lasted an afternoon before they had to get home for some Pabst and reruns of Hee Haw.
> 
> LOL


The Viet Cong lived at home with their families.  That was why they were called guerillas.  The NVA lived in fortified camps or tunnel complexes complete with mess halls and hospitals as good as the US troops had,


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## 2aguy (May 11, 2022)

AZrailwhale said:


> Except they can buy the same caliber of ammo and have it on hand.  The Swiss use common NATO ammo, 9mm, 5.56mm and 7.62mm.  All three calibers are commonly available to civilians.



I love when the gun grabbers try to use Switzerland.


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## ding (May 12, 2022)

Vegasgiants said:


> And yet if you want low gun deaths you need strict gun control


What is the level of gun violence and gun accidents you would accept that would make you stop pushing for more gun control laws?


----------

