# Phoney Sick Notes From WI MDs



## Madeline (Feb 22, 2011)

> The University of Wisconsin medical school says it's investigating reports that doctors from the school handed out medical excuse notes to protesters at the state Capitol this weekend.
> 
> Doctors from numerous hospitals set up a station near the Capitol on Saturday to provide notes to explain public employees' absences from work. One of those doctors was Lou Sanner, who practices family medicine at the University of Wisconsin School of Medicine and Public Health. Sanner said he had given out hundreds of notes to protesters and many he spoke with seemed to be suffering from stress.
> 
> UW Health said Sunday that any doctors who distributed notes did so on their own behalf. The school didn't specifically mention Sanner but said it was looking into cases involving any of the school's doctors.



Excuse notes from docs at protests draw scrutiny

So, lemme get this straight.  Protesters want to be paid for their days away from work, so they call in sick.  To get those days paid, they need a doctor's note.  To show solidarity with the protesters, some doctors are issuing these notes at the site of the protest by the thousands.

Anyone besides me see a possible ethical issue or two here?

Only in America are people so fat and lazy, they want to be paid *to protest*.  What a clusterfuck this is becoming.


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## Mini 14 (Feb 22, 2011)

The doctors will be disbarred. WI State Bar is already looking into it.


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## Madeline (Feb 22, 2011)

Mini 14 said:


> The doctors will be disbarred. WI State Bar is already looking into it.



Seems to me, calling in sick when you are not to be free to protest may be a form of embezzlement, Mini.

I had no idea these people were trying to get PAID for protesting.  I am a tad pissed off.


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## martybegan (Feb 22, 2011)

Its basically Fraud.


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## Ernie S. (Feb 22, 2011)

Madeline said:


> Mini 14 said:
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> > The doctors will be disbarred. WI State Bar is already looking into it.
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Just a tad? How do you think Wisconsin tax payers feel then?


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## rightwinger (Feb 22, 2011)

My doctor ate my homework


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## chanel (Feb 22, 2011)

Teachers do not get random vacation time nor are they permitted unpaid leave. They had to use sick time. I am not excusing it, but that's the only way they could have gone to the protest.


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## boedicca (Feb 22, 2011)

Madeline said:


> Mini 14 said:
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> > The doctors will be disbarred. WI State Bar is already looking into it.
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To me, it's a perfect anecdote regarding the entire Public Employee Union con game.


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## boedicca (Feb 22, 2011)

chanel said:


> Teachers do not get random vacation time nor are they permitted unpaid leave. They had to use sick time. I am not excusing it, but that's the only way they could have gone to the protest.




The doctors committed fraud by handing out notes to people who clearly were not sick.


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## martybegan (Feb 22, 2011)

chanel said:


> Teachers do not get random vacation time nor are they permitted unpaid leave. They had to use sick time. I am not excusing it, but that's the only way they could have gone to the protest.



Its still Fraud. The proper way would to basically go to the protest, and deal with the consequences afterwards. No one ever said your right to protest had to be compensated. 

They should be liable for any sanctions the school boards see fit to impose.


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## Ravi (Feb 22, 2011)

boedicca said:


> chanel said:
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> > Teachers do not get random vacation time nor are they permitted unpaid leave. They had to use sick time. I am not excusing it, but that's the only way they could have gone to the protest.
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Stress is a valid medical diagnosis.


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## boedicca (Feb 22, 2011)

That is such a load of crap.

If they are THAT STRESSED, then they belong at home, not working themselves into a lather at a public protest and putting others at risk.


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## Annie (Feb 22, 2011)

Ravi said:


> boedicca said:
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Actually, it's not:

Wisconsin's Real Doctors and Their Fake Sick Notes for Protesters - Ford Vox - National - The Atlantic



> Wisconsin's Real Doctors and Their Fake Sick Notes for Protesters
> By Ford Vox (Ford Vox is a brain injury physician and journalist based in Boston.  His writing on health care policy and medical science has appeared in diverse media outlets including Reuters, Newsweek, U.S. News & World Report, Salon and Slate.)
> 
> ...But last week some of these weary warriors carried their patient advocacy too far. In videos breathlessly presented throughout the conservative mediasphere this weekend [scroll down to see], doctor after doctor is videotaped writing patently fraudulent sick notes so that the protesting teachers (whose contracts specify that missing work without an excuse can result in dismissal) can keep marching on against the state's union-busting Republican government.
> ...


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## Ravi (Feb 22, 2011)

Fresh air and exercise is an excellent anecdote to stress.


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## Ernie S. (Feb 22, 2011)

chanel said:


> Teachers do not get random vacation time nor are they permitted unpaid leave. They had to use sick time. I am not excusing it, but that's the only way they could have gone to the protest.


Then they should protest on Saturdays or not expect to be paid. They should also be required to make up all days missed. Those with phony notes should be fired and prosecuted.


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## xotoxi (Feb 22, 2011)

I wouldn't write them...unless they came to my office for a medical reason.  And then I would write that they had been seen in my office.


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## boedicca (Feb 22, 2011)

Ravi said:


> Fresh air and exercise is an excellent anecdote to stress.



And the rest of us take a walk during our lunch hour, or work out before or after work.

We don't have to "Sick Out" and protest for a week because we need exercise.


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## Ravi (Feb 22, 2011)

Annie said:


> Ravi said:
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Of course a rightwing blogger would say that.


> According to the American Medical Association, stress is a factor in  more than 75% of sickness today. And according to the World Health  Organization, stress is Americas #1 Health Problem.



Stress Facts & Stats, Stress Statistics, Stress is Killing People, Stress Kills : Reduce Stress &#8211; Conquer Anxiety &#8211; MESICS Training &#8211; A Sound Mind In A Healthy Body


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## Barb (Feb 22, 2011)

Madeline said:


> > The University of Wisconsin medical school says it's investigating reports that doctors from the school handed out medical excuse notes to protesters at the state Capitol this weekend.
> >
> > Doctors from numerous hospitals set up a station near the Capitol on Saturday to provide notes to explain public employees' absences from work. One of those doctors was Lou Sanner, who practices family medicine at the University of Wisconsin School of Medicine and Public Health. Sanner said he had given out hundreds of notes to protesters and many he spoke with seemed to be suffering from stress.
> >
> ...



Patients present (express) the right symptoms, doctors write the note. 
They aren't comp docs, they are gen practitioners...and members of their community...
if the system is trying to fuck the teachers, is it really SO wrong for the teachers to try to fuck the system?


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## boedicca (Feb 22, 2011)

xotoxi gave the ethical response, which Ravi wouldn't recognize if it slapped her on the ass and called her Judy.


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## Annie (Feb 22, 2011)

chanel said:


> Teachers do not get random vacation time nor are they permitted unpaid leave. They had to use sick time. I am not excusing it, but that's the only way they could have gone to the protest.



It's unprofessional excuses for such behavior that has undermined respect for us teachers that actually care about our students and reputations. It would be fine for the teachers to come when off school, write letters, emails to governor and representatives, contact union with petitions to present, ask for community support. But lying? Those teachers deserve what people think of them, unfortunately all will be tarred.


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## boedicca (Feb 22, 2011)

Barb said:


> if the system is trying to fuck the teachers, is it really SO wrong for the teachers to try to fuck the system?




And here we see the STARK MORALITY of Public Employee Unions:  Fuck The System.

Thank you for clarifying it so succinctly.


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## Annie (Feb 22, 2011)

Ravi said:


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LOL! The Atlantic?


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## Barb (Feb 22, 2011)

Madeline said:


> Mini 14 said:
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> > The doctors will be disbarred. WI State Bar is already looking into it.
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Guess what? I don't get to call in sick without HUGE inconvenience to my co-workers. My sick days are part of my pay package, and if I don't use them they are NOT rolled over to the next year. I plan mine in advance to make room for scheduling and call in well. It isn't "embezzlement," but a way to collect my contracted paid time. Many companies combine it all under the heading comp time to compensate employees that come in if they feel good or not. Many more try to screw their employees out of whatever they can.


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## Ravi (Feb 22, 2011)

boedicca said:


> xotoxi gave the ethical response, which Ravi wouldn't recognize if it slapped her on the ass and called her Judy.


so Xo wants to charge money for his services, he's is certainly welcome to do so.

Not all doctors are only about profit.


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## manifold (Feb 22, 2011)

Never once have I been asked to produce a doctor's note for calling in sick.

Seems a bit draconian to me, especially since most of the time it's a common cold or stomach bug that doesn't justify a trip to the doctor's office.


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## Oddball (Feb 22, 2011)

Barb said:


> Patients present (express) the right symptoms, doctors write the note.
> They aren't comp docs, they are gen practitioners...and members of their community...
> if the system is trying to fuck the teachers, is it really SO wrong for the teachers to try to fuck the system?


There you have it, folks...The unabashed and blatant disregard for contractual agreements, the law and ethics that is part and parcel of the totalitarian left in America.

I find it quite refreshing that y'all are finally coming out of the closet.


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## Missourian (Feb 22, 2011)

Ravi said:


> boedicca said:
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## boedicca (Feb 22, 2011)

Ravi said:


> boedicca said:
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> > xotoxi gave the ethical response, which Ravi wouldn't recognize if it slapped her on the ass and called her Judy.
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He said nothing about fees.   You jumped to that conclusion.

Many doctors provide pro bono services for those who can't afford health care.

But in the teachers' cases, they are all covered by very rich health insurance policies (for which they pay nothing) at taxpayer expense.

Doctors are forbidden from treating patients without proper exams and then keeping documented records of the treatment.  The WI Fraud Doctors violated these requirements.


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## Ravi (Feb 22, 2011)

The teachers are protesting something dear to their hearts...the right to be heard by their employers.

If they accept the consequences that they can be fired for calling in sick then that is their choice to make.

A little civil disobedience is often a good thing...unless you're a rightwingloon, of course.


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## Annie (Feb 22, 2011)

manifold said:


> Never once have I been asked to produce a doctor's note for calling in sick.
> 
> Seems a bit draconian to me, especially since most of the time it's a common cold or stomach bug that doesn't justify a trip to the doctor's office.



I've taught in 3 schools, each absence that is more than 3 days required a note. In these circumstances, akin to a 'blue flu' work stoppage, I'd expect the districts to expect a note. It seems the DNC expected it too, so they had the doctors ready.


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## Missourian (Feb 22, 2011)

Ravi said:


> Fresh air and exercise is an excellent anecdote to stress.




Holy Crap...I thought you were joking!

It's even funnier that you're serious.


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## Annie (Feb 22, 2011)

Ravi said:


> The teachers are protesting something dear to their hearts...the right to be heard by their employers.
> 
> If they accept the consequences that they can be fired for calling in sick then that is their choice to make.
> 
> A little civil disobedience is often a good thing...unless you're a rightwingloon, of course.



I actually agree, if civil disobedience was their tactic. They could have called in saying they were going to be absent, following what was dear to their heart, not lying. 

See Thoreau on Civil Disobedience and honesty.


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## boedicca (Feb 22, 2011)

Even FDR recognized that Public Employees are in a special category and should not have collective bargaining rights or the right to strike:

_My dear Mr. Steward:

As I am unable to accept your kind invitation to be present on the occasion of the Twentieth Jubilee Convention of the National Federation of Federal Employees, I am taking this method of sending greetings and a message.

Reading your letter of July 14, 1937, I was especially interested in the timeliness of your remark that the manner in which the activities of your organization have been carried on during the past two decades "has been in complete consonance with the best traditions of public employee relationships." Organizations of Government employees have a logical place in Government affairs.

The desire of Government employees for fair and adequate pay, reasonable hours of work, safe and suitable working conditions, development of opportunities for advancement, facilities for fair and impartial consideration and review of grievances, and other objectives of a proper employee relations policy, is basically no different from that of employees in private industry. Organization on their part to present their views on such matters is both natural and logical, but meticulous attention should be paid to the special relationships and obligations of public servants to the public itself and to the Government.

*All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations when applied to public personnel management. The very nature and purposes of Government make it impossible for administrative officials to represent fully or to bind the employer in mutual discussions with Government employee organizations. The employer is the whole people, who speak by means of laws enacted by their representatives in Congress. Accordingly, administrative officials and employees alike are governed and guided, and in many instances restricted, by laws which establish policies, procedures, or rules in personnel matters.

Particularly, I want to emphasize my conviction that militant tactics have no place in the functions of any organization of Government employees. Upon employees in the Federal service rests the obligation to serve the whole people, whose interests and welfare require orderliness and continuity in the conduct of Government activities. This obligation is paramount. Since their own services have to do with the functioning of the Government, a strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent on their part to prevent or obstruct the operations of Government until their demands are satisfied. Such action, looking toward the paralysis of Government by those who have sworn to support it, is unthinkable and intolerable.* It is, therefore, with a feeling of gratification that I have noted in the constitution of the National Federation of Federal Employees the provision that "under no circumstances shall this Federation engage in or support strikes against the United States Government."

I congratulate the National Federation of Federal Employees the twentieth anniversary of its founding and trust that the convention will, in every way, be successful._

Franklin D. Roosevelt: Letter on the Resolution of Federation of Federal Employees Against Strikes in Federal Service


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## martybegan (Feb 22, 2011)

Ravi said:


> The teachers are protesting something dear to their hearts...the right to be heard by their employers.
> 
> If they accept the consequences that they can be fired for calling in sick then that is their choice to make.
> 
> A little civil disobedience is often a good thing...unless you're a rightwingloon, of course.



by trying the whole sick note thing, they are not accepting the consequences of thier civil disobedience, they are attempting to get around it. 

Accepting would be showing up to work the next week, and when asked where they were, telling the truth. "I was at the protest, what are you going to do about it"  By presenting false doctors notes they are committing fraud, as are the doctors. 

I dont remember MLK getting doctors notes to get him out of Birmingham Jail.


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## Ravi (Feb 22, 2011)

FDR wasn't always correct.


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## boedicca (Feb 22, 2011)

Indeed.  There is something quite contradictory of wishing to engage in Civil Disobedience while be insured against All Of The Consequences.

Oh The Courage!


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## boedicca (Feb 22, 2011)

Ravi said:


> FDR wasn't always correct.




In the 1937 letter, he most certainly was.

Public Employee Unions are one of the major causes of our fiscal shambles and dysfunctional government.


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## HUGGY (Feb 22, 2011)

*Phoney Sick Notes From WI MDs *

I see a financial opportunity for Xotoxi!  Internet sick notes!!!!!


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## martybegan (Feb 22, 2011)

Barb said:


> Madeline said:
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> > > The University of Wisconsin medical school says it's investigating reports that doctors from the school handed out medical excuse notes to protesters at the state Capitol this weekend.
> ...



The collective bargaining rights the state workers have are by state law, not state consitution. Therefore those rights can be revoked by changing the state law creating them. The Governor is using the system as intended. 

The Teachers on the other hand, are mis-using a part of thier contract with the state to avoid repercussions of thier not reporting to thier job. They and their doctors are also commiting fraud against the state. 

Trying to make excuses for this only makes it seem even more wrong.


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## Annie (Feb 22, 2011)

martybegan said:


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Thus my response to Chanel:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/healt...ney-sick-notes-from-wi-mds-2.html#post3349971


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## boedicca (Feb 22, 2011)

Civil Service Codes and laws already exist.  Just what is it that Collective Bargaining for Public Employees is intended to accomplish?

Answer:  the extraction of more and more taxpayer money to benefit the unions and provide financial support to the Democratic Party.


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## Oddball (Feb 22, 2011)

martybegan said:


> Ravi said:
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Might as well just sign the notes "Epstein's Mother" and make the fraud complete.


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## Ravi (Feb 22, 2011)

Yeah, I supposed they should just roll over and write letters of protest...that will get them somewhere.


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## Two Thumbs (Feb 22, 2011)

Madeline said:


> > The University of Wisconsin medical school says it's investigating reports that doctors from the school handed out medical excuse notes to protesters at the state Capitol this weekend.
> >
> > Doctors from numerous hospitals set up a station near the Capitol on Saturday to provide notes to explain public employees' absences from work. One of those doctors was Lou Sanner, who practices family medicine at the University of Wisconsin School of Medicine and Public Health. Sanner said he had given out hundreds of notes to protesters and many he spoke with seemed to be suffering from stress.
> >
> ...



*Holy Shit!!

Maddy is a, a, *gasp, choke* Republican!*

whodathunkit?

Yes, it's illegal to lie on medical records.  Each doctor or nurse there needs to have thier licensed pulled and be fired.  Each teacher caught with fake excuses likewise should be fired.

It's theft.  plain and simple.


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## Annie (Feb 22, 2011)

Ravi said:


> Yeah, I supposed they should just roll over and write letters of protest...that will get them somewhere.



You mean like those actually practicing civil disobedience would? Got it. What you mean is use any excuse, as the ends justify the means, when YOU agree with the ends.


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## boedicca (Feb 22, 2011)

Taxes, Ethics, Rules, and Laws are for the Little People, donchaknow.


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## Barb (Feb 22, 2011)

boedicca said:


> Barb said:
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> > if the system is trying to fuck the teachers, is it really SO wrong for the teachers to try to fuck the system?
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I'm not a union employee, neither am I a teacher. 
FAIL. 
WHY is it okay for the more powerful to fuck the weak, but inexcusable for the weak to use they system they work within to gain a little leverage? 
There is some really ass backwards mentality at work here, and it isn't mine.


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## martybegan (Feb 22, 2011)

Ravi said:


> Yeah, I supposed they should just roll over and write letters of protest...that will get them somewhere.



What they needed to do was accept the consequences of thier actions. Tell their supervisors they were out protesting, and then basically dare them to fire them. That would be a hell of a more effective protest measure then trying to weasel out some pay using sick time. 

Modern protestors seem to lose sight of the fact that the core of non violent resistance is accepting the mandated consequences of your actions, be it imprisonment or unemployment. Your goal is to shame those in power into accepting your position, and to rally popular support to your side. 

Todays protestors are more likely to scream for a lawyer to get them out of jail then to sit in the jail, accept the percived injustice of being jailed for an action, and then using that to force acceptance of your position. 

Basically I'm calling modern american protestors a bunch of wimps compared to those who came before them.


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## Annie (Feb 22, 2011)

Barb said:


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Like Ravi, find any old excuse for ends justifying the means, that YOU agree with.


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## Barb (Feb 22, 2011)

Oddball said:


> Barb said:
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DUDE, have we met? I was never IN the "closet." If the law is an ass, and in this case it is, it needs to be flouted in order that it be changed.


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## Barb (Feb 22, 2011)

martybegan said:


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Opinions vary.


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## Annie (Feb 22, 2011)

Barb said:


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Yep, those that think that lying is wrong think the calling in sick and writing fake notes are wrong. 

Those that think the above are great, because they agree with what they hope will be the ends, like what they are seeing. Of course, if they didn't agree with those engaging in such behaviors, they'd go all self-righteous on the issue. Hypocrite.


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## Madeline (Feb 22, 2011)

chanel said:


> Teachers do not get random vacation time nor are they permitted unpaid leave. They had to use sick time. I am not excusing it, but that's the only way they could have gone to the protest.



Bullshit.  How about calling in and saying "I'm healthy but I refuse to work so I can go protest"?


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## Madeline (Feb 22, 2011)

Ravi said:


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What nonsense, Ravi.  How many MDs do you know who can diagnosis a stress injury in THOUSANDS of people a day?  Where's the doctor-patient relationship?


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## Barb (Feb 22, 2011)

martybegan said:


> Ravi said:
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collective bargaining was SUPPOSED to reduce liability for um, collective bargaining, meat-head(s). Stipulations as to unpaid leave (you can get FIRED for unpaid time, as has been pointed out) were designed to fuck strikers. 
It isn't rocket science, but is astounds me the number of people who just don't get it. ANY of it.


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## Madeline (Feb 22, 2011)

Barb said:


> Madeline said:
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You are asking me if teachers should commit perjury (I had to sign all my government time sheets "under penalties of perjury") so they can embezzle funds and whether MDs should conspire with them to do so?

Why can't they just protest WITHOUT pay?


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## Madeline (Feb 22, 2011)

Ravi said:


> boedicca said:
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I'd say embezzling from taxpayers to pay people to protest is "about money", Ravi.


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## Annie (Feb 22, 2011)

Barb said:


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I get it. Not hard to understand. They are not protesting on principle, but for their personal gain. Nothing about civil disobedience and such nonsense. They are willing to sacrifice the professional standards, their students education time, and steal tax money, because if they stand on principle they'd risk being fired. If they did what contracted to do, they couldn't attend protest. 

They'd still have many ways of letting their feelings be known to community and elected officials, but heh, then they'd have to do the right thing on a few different fronts.


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## Madeline (Feb 22, 2011)

Ravi said:


> The teachers are protesting something dear to their hearts...the right to be heard by their employers.
> 
> If they accept the consequences that they can be fired for calling in sick then that is their choice to make.
> 
> A little civil disobedience is often a good thing...unless you're a rightwingloon, of course.



Hey, I like a good protest as well as the next guy.  But when was the last time you heard of GM paying striking auto workers?  Never?

That'd be right.

Why didn't these public employee unions hoard cash for a strike fund, like UAW does, rather than expecting the workers to defraud the taxpayers?


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## Oddball (Feb 22, 2011)

Barb said:


> collective bargaining was SUPPOSED to reduce liability for um, collective bargaining, meat-head(s). Stipulations as to unpaid leave (you can get FIRED for unpaid time, as has been pointed out) were designed to fuck strikers.
> It isn't rocket science, but is astounds me the number of people who just don't get it. ANY of it.


We get it just fine...You're rationalizing illegal wildcat strikes, breach of contract, fraud, removal of minor students form school premises without parental permission and medical malpractice because the ends justify the means.

Like I said, it's quite refreshing  to  see what a truly lawless bunch of anarchists y'all really are.


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## Big Black Dog (Feb 22, 2011)

Madeline said:


> > The University of Wisconsin medical school says it's investigating reports that doctors from the school handed out medical excuse notes to protesters at the state Capitol this weekend.
> >
> > Doctors from numerous hospitals set up a station near the Capitol on Saturday to provide notes to explain public employees' absences from work. One of those doctors was Lou Sanner, who practices family medicine at the University of Wisconsin School of Medicine and Public Health. Sanner said he had given out hundreds of notes to protesters and many he spoke with seemed to be suffering from stress.
> >
> ...



Wonder if these phony sick notes will cut the cheese?


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## Annie (Feb 22, 2011)

Madeline said:


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They might get fired, unlikely. Likely there would be written reprimand in file. That's the price of doing what they think right. Lying and taking the money is easier, actually pain free, since they can say they did if "For the Children."


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## Barb (Feb 22, 2011)

Madeline said:


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Because, as has already been explained, off time without pay is constituted (within the system they're protesting AGAINST) AS a reason for termination. It was *designe*d to stifle dissent.


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## whitehall (Feb 22, 2011)

If Dr. Sanner doesn't lose his license it's proof that the inmates are running the asylum.


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## Madeline (Feb 22, 2011)

Barb said:


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We aren't talking about gaming the system here, Barb.  This is fraud, conspiracy to commit fraud, perjury, falsifying medical records, etc.

This is a bad thing, and it was not necessary.


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## Annie (Feb 22, 2011)

Madeline said:


> Ravi said:
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> > The teachers are protesting something dear to their hearts...the right to be heard by their employers.
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They'd have to call it a strike, but it's not. It's a political strategy that is backfiring, big time.


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## martybegan (Feb 22, 2011)

Barb said:


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There are no opinions in my statements, those are facts. Just because you dont like them doesnt make them false. 

Notice my statements include nothing about the rightness or wrongness of the situation, those would be opinions.


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## Madeline (Feb 22, 2011)

Barb said:


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Then the place to resolve this is on the state house floor, or the contract negotiation room, Barb.  You dun accept a job and agree to the conditions, then find a MD to help you defraud your employer out of the benefit of the bargain.  That is wrong.


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## manifold (Feb 22, 2011)

Calling out sick is their only legal recourse if they want to protest.


Get over it people.  It ain't got nothin to do with the larger issue being debated in WI.


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## martybegan (Feb 22, 2011)

Barb said:


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They had that provision in thier contract. They are then faced with two choices, if they dont feel strongly enough about this to risk thier jobs, protest after school or on a saturday. If they do, then leave work and protest, and be ready to accept the consequences. 

Since when has change via people power been easy? You have to risk something to get change.


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## Barb (Feb 22, 2011)

martybegan said:


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Sweetness, I didn't call you a "liar." State law doesn't make anything "right," it only makes it "law."


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## Annie (Feb 22, 2011)

manifold said:


> Calling out sick is their only legal recourse if they want to protest.
> 
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> Get over it people.  It ain't got nothin to do with the larger issue being debated in WI.



Except it wasn't legal.


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## manifold (Feb 22, 2011)

Annie said:


> manifold said:
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You're entitled to your opinion.


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## Barb (Feb 22, 2011)

Madeline said:


> Barb said:
> 
> 
> > martybegan said:
> ...



Maddie, it seems a # of teachers disagree with you, as do their doctors. As do I.


----------



## Madeline (Feb 22, 2011)

Barb said:


> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> > Barb said:
> ...



Okay, let's say you're right...that the union gave up strike rights.  The teachers belong to the union, elected their representatives, etc.  The contract was negotiated in good faith.  *The no-strike rule (if one exists) has great value to the employer.*

I'm not convinced you ARE right, but if so, for teachers to now seek to evade this prohibition by fraud is criminal and defeats their most appealing argument -- that contracts should be enforcable even when they prove painful for one party.


----------



## martybegan (Feb 22, 2011)

manifold said:


> Calling out sick is their only legal recourse if they want to protest.
> 
> 
> Get over it people.  It ain't got nothin to do with the larger issue being debated in WI.



The whole point is that is it is NOT legal. They are committing fraud. 

If they actually all just reported back to work without a reason, they would have an even a stronger case against the state, as daring the state to fire them would result in

1) The state backing down, and a propaganda win

2) The state firing them, and REALLY firing up thier base

Instead they look greedy a sin, trying to get paid with Taxpayers money for skipping out of work. 

Does anyone even know how protests are supposed to work anymore?


----------



## Annie (Feb 22, 2011)

Barb said:


> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> > Barb said:
> ...



Because you think that the teachers who committed fraud and the doctors, who also committed fraud in order to help hide the fraudulent behavior of the teachers, agree with them all. 

Barb this is not complicated.


----------



## manifold (Feb 22, 2011)

Fraud! 

The self-righteous indignation of you guys is a hoot to behold.


----------



## martybegan (Feb 22, 2011)

Barb said:


> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> > Barb said:
> ...



Doesnt make them right. If I present a document to my employer, that states i was ill, and I was not ill, that is fraud, no matter how much people try to sugar coat it. 

I still seem to recall fraud being illegal.

Again, not opinion, fact.


----------



## WorldWatcher (Feb 22, 2011)

Madeline said:


> Barb said:
> 
> 
> > Madeline said:
> ...




111.89 Strike prohibited. 
(1) Upon establishing that a
strike is in progress, the employer may either seek an injunction
or file an unfair labor practice charge with the commission under
s. 111.84 (2) (e) or both. It is the responsibility of the office to
decide whether to seek an injunction or file an unfair labor practice
charge. The existence of an administrative remedy does not
constitute grounds for denial of injunctive relief.
(2) The occurrence of a strike and the participation therein by
an employee do not affect the rights of the employer, in law or in
equity, to deal with the strike, including:
*(a) The right to impose discipline, including discharge, or suspension
without pay, of any employee participating therein*;
(b) The right to cancel the reinstatement eligibility of any
employee engaging therein; and
(c) The right of the employer to request the imposition of fines,
either against the labor organization or the employee engaging
therein, or to sue for damages because of such strike activity.​

STATE EMPLOYMENT LABOR RELATIONS


>>>>


----------



## martybegan (Feb 22, 2011)

manifold said:


> Fraud!
> 
> The self-righteous indignation of you guys is a hoot to behold.



It is fraud. The document is false, the person was not sick. If given to the employer it is a false document. when you give something false to someone else it is fraud.

It is up to the state to determine if it wants to pursue prosecution, but it is still a crime.


----------



## Madeline (Feb 22, 2011)

manifold said:


> Calling out sick is their only legal recourse if they want to protest.
> 
> 
> Get over it people.  It ain't got nothin to do with the larger issue being debated in WI.



Can we expect the same moral relativity from you if the governor tries to deprive the teachers of the benefit of their bargain?  No?

Color me *shocked*.


----------



## Annie (Feb 22, 2011)

martybegan said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> > Fraud!
> ...



As I wrote awhile ago, mostly likely would be a reprimand in their file, would only hurt them outside of WI. 

The doctors are more likely to feel real pressure.


----------



## martybegan (Feb 22, 2011)

SeaShadow said:


> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> > Barb said:
> ...



Suspension without pay would be the minimal route the state could take. They would suspend them for the days they were out protesting, the teachers would lose pay, but keep thier job, and no one would have to provide fraudulent documents.

I see the state doing exactly this, as firing them would just move public opinion in the union's favor. 

So there is a mechanic for a form of unpaid leave in this case. The state would have to certify the action as a strike, and could take the limited steps i described above.

The teachers get to voice thier dissent, the taxpayers dont have to pay them for it, and no one loses thier job.


----------



## Barb (Feb 22, 2011)

Madeline said:


> Barb said:
> 
> 
> > Madeline said:
> ...




The union did not give up strike rights. The contracted law made it untenable TO strike, and it was designed to DO so. I'm done with this. Either people understand the structural entrapment in place or they don't. Just because something IS doesn't mean something is correct.


----------



## Annie (Feb 22, 2011)

Barb said:


> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> > Barb said:
> ...



Right. They designed the contract and it was agreed to, in order to prevent schools from being shut down. There was no ALTERNATIVE but fraud, so the teachers could shut down the schools. Barb, this is not deep.


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## Madeline (Feb 22, 2011)

I say fire the whole fucking bunch.  T'aint like there's a teacher shortage.


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## martybegan (Feb 22, 2011)

Barb said:


> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> > Barb said:
> ...



Plenty of states have that provision, in return contracts can not be uniliaterally imposed on them (unless the law is changed, of course.). Some even impose arbitration. 

How is this entrapment? You know ahead of time what the rules are, when you apply for the job, or when the law is passed. 

We all have the right to protest, NOTHING in the constitution says we have the right to protest WITHOUT CONSEQUENCES


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## manifold (Feb 22, 2011)

Madeline said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> > Calling out sick is their only legal recourse if they want to protest.
> ...



I don't even understand your question, but you appear to have already answered it for yourself.

Color me *shocked*


----------



## Madeline (Feb 22, 2011)

Barb said:


> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> > Barb said:
> ...



The union negotiated with this law in mind, Barb.  The teachers accepted their jobs under that law and that contract.  They want THEIR rights enforced but are using fraud to defeat the rights of their employer, the taxpayer.

That just does not wash.


----------



## Annie (Feb 22, 2011)

Madeline said:


> Barb said:
> 
> 
> > Madeline said:
> ...



There you go, using logic and ethics. Sigh.


----------



## Madeline (Feb 22, 2011)

I want to be fair and open to the arguments on both sides.  I'm not happy at the Koch Brothers creeping around in the background, throwing money at any Republican with his hand out.  But this Wisconsin protest has been mired in unethical and perhaps illegal conduct from Day One, when the duly-elected Democrats fled the state to prevent the legislature from forming a quorum.

You cannot protest someone else's unethical and unfair treatment of your group by unethical or illegal means and win any points with me.


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## Ravi (Feb 22, 2011)

Madeline said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> > Calling out sick is their only legal recourse if they want to protest.
> ...


Hello? The governor IS trying to deprive teachers the right to belong to unions.

This isn't rocket science.


----------



## Annie (Feb 22, 2011)

Ravi said:


> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> > manifold said:
> ...



Not exactly. But let's give you that for discussion. That justifies their actions?


----------



## WorldWatcher (Feb 22, 2011)

Ravi said:


> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> > manifold said:
> ...




Well the truth is nothing will preclude the right of anyone from joining a union.  The law will simply be that for most issues the State will not have to deal with the union, people can still join.


>>>>


----------



## martybegan (Feb 22, 2011)

Ravi said:


> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> > manifold said:
> ...



That right is a law based right, not a constitutional one. What the law giveth, the law can taketh away. (Same for a constiutional right, but its alot harder)


----------



## Ravi (Feb 22, 2011)

Absolutely.


----------



## Madeline (Feb 22, 2011)

Ravi said:


> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> > manifold said:
> ...



Is the governor using illegal or unethical means to achieve his stated goal?

No?

I rest my case.


----------



## uscitizen (Feb 22, 2011)

Ravi said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> > chanel said:
> ...



yep it might depend on what the diagnosis was.

the working class does have problems protesting though.
Kinda makes you wonder about all thse gathering at TP events.


----------



## Madeline (Feb 22, 2011)

BTW, there are about 10,000 public employees protesting in Columbus, Ohio today (we have a bill pending here similar to the one in Wisconsin).

I wonder how many Ohio teachers, police, fire, at that protest etc. plan to fraudulently claim sick leave for today?


----------



## saveliberty (Feb 22, 2011)

All employees with a doctor's  excuse obtained at a unapproved event, may now consider themselves available for employment outside of WI.  That is all.


----------



## Oddball (Feb 22, 2011)

I wonder how long before democrat legislators in Ohio are going to flee like the cowards in Wisconsin and Indiana.


----------



## AllieBaba (Feb 22, 2011)

Ravi said:


> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> > manifold said:
> ...


 
No, the governor is trying to protect the kids of the state, and the teacher's retirement pensions. Which WILL GO AWAY if they don't stop spending money like water.

Everybody else has taken hits; the teachers are being asked to sacrifice a tiny portion of their bloated pay, that comes directly from US citizens who can't afford private health insurance and private schools. Fuck the teachers. I say start giving teaching certificates to anyone who gets a BA/BS and who doesn't have a criminal record.


----------



## Lonestar_logic (Feb 22, 2011)

Ravi said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> > chanel said:
> ...



Only for liberals.


----------



## Ravi (Feb 22, 2011)

Madeline said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > Madeline said:
> ...


Not sure what case you are resting as your comment makes no sense.

The unions have agreed to everything the governor has asked of them, and now he is telling them to cease to exist or he will start laying people off.


----------



## martybegan (Feb 22, 2011)

Ravi said:


> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...



All he is asking for is the Democrat sentators return to the state to vote. If they dont return and finish the budget/legislation, he will be forced to trim it unilaterally.


----------



## Ravi (Feb 22, 2011)

martybegan said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > Madeline said:
> ...


Yes...vote on disbanding unions.


----------



## boedicca (Feb 22, 2011)

Barb said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> > Barb said:
> ...




Just who are these Powerful People against whom Public Employee Unions are railing and who are most affected by the strike?

It isn't The Rich - they likely send their kids to private schools.

It's actually the average taxpayer, often a two-income or single parent family who makes less than the teacher - and now must take time off from work to care for their children due to the school closures.

Wow.  That's really STICKIN' IT TO THE MAN!!!!!!!


----------



## martybegan (Feb 22, 2011)

Ravi said:


> martybegan said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...



they can vote against it, and they would lose, as they are in the minority in the state senate. They are not being forced to vote for it, they are being told to attend the senate, which as senators, I think is thier job.


----------



## boedicca (Feb 22, 2011)

Madeline said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > The teachers are protesting something dear to their hearts...the right to be heard by their employers.
> ...





Good question.  I suspect the answer is that instead of having a strike fund, the money is all earmarked for campaign donations to the DNC and affiliates.


----------



## boedicca (Feb 22, 2011)

Annie said:


> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> > Barb said:
> ...





Except for the kids who are now starving because they received NO FREE SCHOOL LUNCHES due to the school closures.

They can't claim they did it for them.


----------



## AllieBaba (Feb 22, 2011)

Ravi said:


> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...


 
Good. Anyone else would get laid off for using fake sick notes and walking off the job. If you happen to work in a facility like a hospital or jail and you do that, you can be prosecuted as well for dereliction of duties.

So fuck them. I hope they all get fired.


----------



## The Infidel (Feb 22, 2011)

Madeline said:


> Mini 14 said:
> 
> 
> > The doctors will be disbarred. WI State Bar is already looking into it.
> ...



As you should be.... I know I am!


----------



## boedicca (Feb 22, 2011)

manifold said:


> Calling out sick is their only legal recourse if they want to protest.
> 
> 
> Get over it people.  It ain't got nothin to do with the larger issue being debated in WI.




No it's not.  Let them call a strike and go on unpaid leave.  

But that would be SO PAINFUL!   Must make sure the money flows....right into the DNC coffers.


----------



## AllieBaba (Feb 22, 2011)

The state is paying them for protesting; and they are protesting because they want to continue to receive $$ from citizens to do a crappy job...everybody else is taking cuts, getting laid off, losing their homes.

Screw them. I'll get a teaching certificate and move to Wisconsin, and I will actually have my kids educated in the school system for which I work, unlike these hypocritical parasites, who think their kids are a cut above the kids they teach, and who make enough money to send them to PRIVATE SCHOOLS. Meanwhile, they squawk if poor people want to have the option of sending their kids to different schools. Because then they might have to be competetive and teach the kids something, as well as risk losing their jobs if they do a piss-poor job.


----------



## boedicca (Feb 22, 2011)

Ravi said:


> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> > manifold said:
> ...




Actually, that is not true.  Unions may exist without the right to collective bargaining.  Federal Employees had such a union for years.


----------



## AllieBaba (Feb 22, 2011)

boedicca said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> > Calling out sick is their only legal recourse if they want to protest.
> ...


 
Mani, you're an idiot. If they want to protest they say they're protesting. You don't LIE about it, and commit fraud. 

Of course, it's typical of the leftwad mindset that it's okay to break the law, so long as you're doing it for your own benefit.


----------



## boedicca (Feb 22, 2011)

Oddball said:


> I wonder how long before democrat legislators in Ohio are going to flee like the cowards in Wisconsin and Indiana.





In the end, they'll all flee to California.

We are generally the last refuge for progressives (besides DC), alas and alack.


----------



## boedicca (Feb 22, 2011)

Lonestar_logic said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > boedicca said:
> ...




Liberal definition of STRESS:  Somebody not doing what liberals want them to do.


----------



## whitehall (Feb 22, 2011)

Right wing radio pundit Michael Savage once said that "liberalism is a mental illness". I disagreed at that time but I am starting to change my mind. Listen to the excuses the left makes for people who commit fraud and violate the law. Fake rightwinger ed.norton makes a joke. Channel says (sniff, sniff) it's the only way they could get to the demonstrtion and another leftie says that stress is a valid excuse. I guess being a liberal is a valid excuse for an episode of mental illness.


----------



## Madeline (Feb 22, 2011)

Ravi said:


> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...



I dun disagree, Ravi...he wants to break the union. But he is using legal means to advance his goals, and the union is not.


----------



## AllieBaba (Feb 22, 2011)

boedicca said:


> Oddball said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder how long before democrat legislators in Ohio are going to flee like the cowards in Wisconsin and Indiana.
> ...


 
I think Cali is sick of them, too.

I think everyone is going to have to move to Canada. I think Canada is a good place for them. Let them educate future CANADIANS.


----------



## The Infidel (Feb 22, 2011)

whitehall said:


> Right wing radio pundit Michael Savage once said that "liberalism is a mental illness". I disagreed at that time but I am starting to change my mind. Listen to the excuses the left makes for people who commit fraud and violate the law. Fake rightwinger ed.norton makes a joke. Channel says (sniff, sniff) it's the only way they could get to the demonstrtion and another leftie says that stress is a valid excuse. I guess being a liberal is a valid excuse for an episode of mental illness.


----------



## boedicca (Feb 22, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> > Oddball said:
> ...




I wish you were right - but based upon the 2010 elections, Public Employee Unions have taken over the state.   Let that be a warning to the rest.


----------



## Dr.House (Feb 22, 2011)

manifold said:


> Calling out sick is their only legal recourse if they want to protest.



Only?

Alternative would be to take an unpaid day off...  I mean if it's THAT important...

No note required and you're not doing anything potentially illegal....


----------



## Madeline (Feb 22, 2011)

Dr.House said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> > Calling out sick is their only legal recourse if they want to protest.
> ...



Or if they are legally obligated to go to work, then FUCKING GO TO WORK.  Protest afterwards, or send your spouse to protest, or confine yourself to less time-intensive means of protesting.

If you GAVE YOUR WORD, then keep it.


----------



## boedicca (Feb 22, 2011)

Taxes, Ethics, Rules, Laws, and KEEPING ONE'S WORD are for the Little People.


----------



## Ravi (Feb 22, 2011)

Any minute now the rightwingloons will be calling for the teachers to be shot.


----------



## boedicca (Feb 22, 2011)

No, sweetie.  That's a leftwing tactic.

Conservatives would rather see them get back to the work they are legally obligated to perform.


----------



## Madeline (Feb 22, 2011)

Ravi said:


> Any minute now the rightwingloons will be calling for the teachers to be shot.



Ravi, your argument seems to be that any means of frustrating the governor is acceptable if it prevents him from dismantling public employee unions.  I just cannot accept that.


----------



## The Infidel (Feb 22, 2011)

Madeline said:


> Or if they are legally obligated to go to work, then FUCKING GO TO WORK.  Protest afterwards, or send your spouse to protest, or confine yourself to less time-intensive means of protesting.
> 
> If you GAVE YOUR WORD, then keep it.



This is exactly why Tea Party rally's and most conservative protests happen on weekends and the numbers are not usually as big as liberal protests.... because they (the left) have NO integrity, and are willing to break the rules to justify their ends.

"Ends justify the means"


Just sayin'


----------



## Dr.House (Feb 22, 2011)

Ravi said:


> Any minute now the rightwingloons will be calling for the teachers to be shot.



Actually, quite the opposite:







This used to be uncivil to the leftwingnuts....


----------



## R.D. (Feb 22, 2011)

manifold said:


> Calling out sick is their only legal recourse if they want to protest.
> 
> 
> Get over it people.  It ain't got nothin to do with the larger issue being debated in WI.



Getting an MD to sign off as a medical issue is fraud.  

They could eliminate the deficit  if   in the future this doc was their collective  primary care physician...he works fast and free


----------



## manifold (Feb 22, 2011)

Madeline said:


> You cannot protest someone else's unethical and unfair treatment of your group by unethical or illegal means and win any points with me.



But one can protest bigotry with their own bigotry and win huge points with you.

Go figure.


----------



## whitehall (Feb 22, 2011)

Ravi said:


> Any minute now the rightwingloons will be calling for the teachers to be shot.



If ravi is typical of the left pretty soon an excuse will be automatic. All they have to do is prove that they are registered democrat and a sick day will be chalked up to an episode of mental illness.


----------



## del (Feb 22, 2011)

Ravi said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> > chanel said:
> ...



and a doctor *diagnosing* hundreds of *stress* cases in a day is fraud and probably malpractice.

good effort, though.

well, not really...


----------



## manifold (Feb 22, 2011)

R.D. said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> > Calling out sick is their only legal recourse if they want to protest.
> ...



You're welcome to your opinion.


----------



## chanel (Feb 22, 2011)

whitehall said:


> Right wing radio pundit Michael Savage once said that "liberalism is a mental illness". I disagreed at that time but I am starting to change my mind. Listen to the excuses the left makes for people who commit fraud and violate the law. Fake rightwinger ed.norton makes a joke. Channel says (sniff, sniff) it's the only way they could get to the demonstrtion and another leftie says that stress is a valid excuse. I guess being a liberal is a valid excuse for an episode of mental illness.



A.  It's "chanel" not Channel.
B.  Chanel said "I am not making excuses..."
C.  Chanel is not a liberal

What I stated was a fact.  I do not condone anyone breaking the law.  But I also see what's happening in WI spreading across the country.  For all those that think teaching is such a cushy job, I suggest you get your credentials.  I foresee hundreds of thousands of openings in the next few years.


----------



## manifold (Feb 22, 2011)

del said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > boedicca said:
> ...



And you too are welcome to your opinion.

But like I said, regardless of how anyone feels about them using sick time, it doesn't have shit to do with the larger issue being debated in WI.  Partisan cocksmooches are using it as a tool to smear the teachers as dishonest scumsacks when in reality we'd all do the same in their shoes.  Especially Madeline.


----------



## R.D. (Feb 22, 2011)

manifold said:


> R.D. said:
> 
> 
> > manifold said:
> ...


I didn't offer an opinion.

If I did you wouldn't welcome it, trust me.


----------



## manifold (Feb 22, 2011)

R.D. said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> > R.D. said:
> ...



Yes you did.  And yes I did.

Fact, not opinion.


----------



## del (Feb 22, 2011)

manifold said:


> del said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...



speak for yourself, ace.


----------



## Ravi (Feb 22, 2011)

del said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > boedicca said:
> ...


I don't see it. Any doctor is qualified to diagnose stress...get a grip!


----------



## manifold (Feb 22, 2011)

You can say you wouldn't do the same in their shoes del, and I'll say you're a liar, in denial or both.


----------



## Madeline (Feb 22, 2011)

Ravi said:


> del said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...



What MD can diagnosis anything in thousands of people a day, Ravi?


----------



## del (Feb 22, 2011)

Ravi said:


> del said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...



of course you don't, they're on your team. 
i'll go out on a limb and guess that diagnosing involves more than the two seconds it takes to sign a note. *shrug*


----------



## Madeline (Feb 22, 2011)

Uh oh.....



> Protesters in Madison who obtained medical excuse slips to cover their absences from work, and the doctors who issued them, are likely to be subjected to more intensive examinations.
> 
> Officials from the Madison and Milwaukee public schools and UW Health said Monday they would consider disciplinary action against the doctors and the school workers drawing criticism for what some consider a sick-day dodge.
> 
> ...



Doctors' excuses for protesting teachers in Madison draw scrutiny - JSOnline


----------



## del (Feb 22, 2011)

manifold said:


> You can say you wouldn't do the same in their shoes del, and I'll say you're a liar, in denial or both.



you're welcome to your opinion. i wouldn't do the same in their shoes.

make of it what you will. they have every right to protest; they have no right to steal.

*shrug* no skin off my nose


----------



## Madeline (Feb 22, 2011)

del said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > del said:
> ...



I'm willing to bet a Wisconsin MD's standard of care also requires that he take a medical history, see a patient in private and not prescribe (even a sick leave) without a bona fide doctor patient relationship.

Just guessin', of course......


----------



## Ravi (Feb 22, 2011)

del said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > del said:
> ...


You seem stressed...


----------



## manifold (Feb 22, 2011)

del said:


> i wouldn't do the same in their shoes.



OK, I actually believe that you believe that, so I won't call you a liar.

But I do think you're fooling yourself.


----------



## del (Feb 22, 2011)

manifold said:


> del said:
> 
> 
> > i wouldn't do the same in their shoes.
> ...



why would i stop now?


----------



## Madeline (Feb 22, 2011)

manifold said:


> del said:
> 
> 
> > i wouldn't do the same in their shoes.
> ...



I think fewer people than you believe are willing to commit perjury for a buck, mani.


----------



## chanel (Feb 22, 2011)

I'm wondering how many people called out sick to celebrate the World Series.


----------



## del (Feb 22, 2011)

Ravi said:


> del said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...



thanks, doc.

see you next week.


----------



## Madeline (Feb 22, 2011)

chanel said:


> I'm wondering how many people called out sick to celebrate the World Series.



Not me.  I fucking hate sports.


----------



## Ravi (Feb 22, 2011)

Madeline said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> > del said:
> ...


 Who committed perjury?


----------



## R.D. (Feb 22, 2011)

chanel said:


> I'm wondering how many people called out sick to celebrate the World Series.



I wonder how many MD's were at the ready to give them a  five second false medical diagnosis for free?


----------



## Ravi (Feb 22, 2011)

chanel said:


> I'm wondering how many people called out sick to celebrate the World Series.


Okay, now that is twice someone said called *out* sick.  I thought it was called *in* sick.


----------



## manifold (Feb 22, 2011)

Madeline said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> > del said:
> ...



Perjury...?








Do go on!


----------



## Ravi (Feb 22, 2011)

R.D. said:


> chanel said:
> 
> 
> > I'm wondering how many people called out sick to celebrate the World Series.
> ...


How can you be sure it was false? If my governor was against teachers and I was a teacher I'd sure as hell be stressed.


----------



## manifold (Feb 22, 2011)

Why do they need a doctor's note anyway?


----------



## R.D. (Feb 22, 2011)

Ravi said:


> R.D. said:
> 
> 
> > chanel said:
> ...



Then healthcare is cheap, fast  and easy, why not pay for some out of their own pockets?


----------



## Madeline (Feb 22, 2011)

manifold said:


> Why do they need a doctor's note anyway?



They shut down the schools, mani.  Mass walk out.  MD notes are being demanded by their supervisors.


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## Ravi (Feb 22, 2011)

R.D. said:


> Ravi said:
> 
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Like I said before, they've already agreed to every demand the governor has made of them EXCEPT the one where he wants to take away their ability to bargain.


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## AllieBaba (Feb 22, 2011)

Madeline said:


> manifold said:
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Or fraud.

Though who knows, maybe everyone in his circle would. I know it's obviously common in Dem circles. And not just in high places.


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## AllieBaba (Feb 22, 2011)

Ravi said:


> R.D. said:
> 
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> > Ravi said:
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Link it, Ravi. Because I thought they were sticking at having to pay a tiny percentage of their premiums. So please provide a link so I can see what you are talking about?


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## del (Feb 22, 2011)

manifold said:


> Why do they need a doctor's note anyway?



to get paid


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## Madeline (Feb 22, 2011)

Ravi said:


> R.D. said:
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The mere fact that an MD signed a note does not make it evidence of a bona fide diagnosis, Ravi.



> Another agency, the Wisconsin Medical Society, also has begun to review the doctors' work over the weekend.
> 
> "If these reports are accurate, the Society does not condone these actions under any circumstances," the group said in a release issued Monday.



Doctors' excuses for protesting teachers in Madison draw scrutiny - JSOnline


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## del (Feb 22, 2011)

Ravi said:


> R.D. said:
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link?


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## chanel (Feb 22, 2011)

I was just watching O'Reilly and he called out one of the senators on that.  That's the spin.  The greedy teachers and their costly bennies - not the right to exist.  If people want to rid the country of all public unions, fine.  Then fucking own it.  I'm tired of the lies.


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## Madeline (Feb 22, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> Ravi said:
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> > R.D. said:
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I think she's correct, Allie.  They have conceded most of what the governor says he wants, and the real issue is the right to bargain collectively.


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## R.D. (Feb 22, 2011)

manifold said:


> Why do they need a doctor's note anyway?



You finally making the connection?  

So they don't get penalized for taking the time off.


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## manifold (Feb 22, 2011)

Madeline said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> > Why do they need a doctor's note anyway?
> ...



Yeah, so?

Why can't they simply say I didn't go to the doctor?

Are you telling me they're not allowed to make any decisions about their own health without getting a doctor's opinion first?  Not buying it.


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## Madeline (Feb 22, 2011)

chanel said:


> I was just watching O'Reilly and he called out one of the senators on that.  That's the spin.  The greedy teachers and their costly bennies - not the right to exist.  If people want to rid the country of all public unions, fine.  Then fucking own it.  I'm tired of the lies.



There is a sinister side to all this, no doubt.  Why are the Koch Brothers spending billions to get their candidates elected?  Why are unions being demonized this way?  It ain't to save on government spending.

The real target, IMO, is private sector unions.

But the public sector unions are doing themselves no favors, the way they're acting.  They're alienating the very people they need to support them.  They couldn't do a better job for the Koch Brothers if they were singing from the hymnal...and mebbe some union leaders are.

Wouldn't be the first time.


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## manifold (Feb 22, 2011)

R.D. said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> > Why do they need a doctor's note anyway?
> ...



If they have sick days to use, why would they be penalized?


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## Madeline (Feb 22, 2011)

manifold said:


> Madeline said:
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> > manifold said:
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You dun have to buy it...that's the way it is.  The employers have a right to demand MD notes or treat the absence as unauthorized leave, and that's what they are doing.


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## Ravi (Feb 22, 2011)

del said:


> Ravi said:
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I read it awhile ago and forgot where. Here's one where they've agreed to pay cuts and the one I read earlier said they also agreed to pay cuts and to paying 12.5% of their insurance premiums.



> Public employees have said they would agree to  concessions Walker wants that would amount to an 8% pay cut on average,  but they want to retain their collective bargaining rights. One  Republican senator also has floated an alternative that would make the  elimination of those rights temporary.
> Walker has repeatedly rejected both offers,  saying local governments and school districts can't be hamstrung by the  often lengthy collective bargaining process. He says they need to have  more flexibility to deal with up to $1 billion in cuts he will propose  in his budget next week and into the future.


Wisconsin governor warns of layoffs - USATODAY.com


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## manifold (Feb 22, 2011)

del said:


> Ravi said:
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I don't have a link but I saw the Governor on tv flat out say "no", the budget concessions aren't enough, they must also forfeit the right to ever collectively ask for any of it back.


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## AllieBaba (Feb 22, 2011)

Madeline said:


> AllieBaba said:
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 See, I just want to see what the definition of "bargain collectively" means. If it means they want to continue to not work and still get paid, fuck that. If it means they want to get paid indefinitely while they refuse to bargain, fuck that too.

I need to see the wording and the context of "collective bargaining".


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## Madeline (Feb 22, 2011)

manifold said:


> R.D. said:
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Because to use sick days, you must really be sick.


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## WorldWatcher (Feb 22, 2011)

manifold said:


> Madeline said:
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Most employers reserve the right to demand proof of medical treatment, especially if that absence is under suspicious circumstances.

Failure to make prior arrangements (such as a pre-scheduled doctors appointment or contacting your supervisor in prior to work) can be viewed suspiciously.  While sick leave is a benefit, it is typically up to the employer to grant the time taken.  

In addition, by law they can be dismissed, suspended, or fined if found to be on strike.  Providing fraudulent doctors certification of illness for sick leave at the least could result in time off without pay.  At the most it could be considered job abandonment and result in termination.


>>>>


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## Ernie S. (Feb 22, 2011)

Ravi said:


> del said:
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In 2 or 300 patients a day? bullshit!


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## boedicca (Feb 22, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> Madeline said:
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The issue is actually a tad different.  Walker has proposed limiting collective bargaining to pay, and excluding benefits and pensions from it.  Pay increases would also be limited to the Federal CPI index unless approved by (either voters or a super majority in) another vote.


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## AllieBaba (Feb 22, 2011)

manifold said:


> Madeline said:
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Do the words fraud, liar, cheat, medical malpractice..do those things mean anything to you, Mantard?

Do you think it's okay for drs. to lie and prescribe meds to patients based on something other than medical need? For example...morphine? Marijuana? 

Do you think it's okay for drs. to *pay* for votes with prescriptions and false statements that they are seeing a patient for medical reasons?

Are you okay with bribery? "You support this cause, we'll give you something..."?

Well I know the answer. Yes, you do. You're okay with all that.


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## Ravi (Feb 22, 2011)

manifold said:


> r.d. said:
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btc


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## R.D. (Feb 22, 2011)

manifold said:


> R.D. said:
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*per  Madeline's link*....

Because of the staff shortage, Madison schools were closed much of last week and on Monday.

Workers were told they would need to provide a form from a medical professional for any absence after Feb. 16, according to Ken Syke, a spokesman for the school district.


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## AllieBaba (Feb 22, 2011)

boedicca said:


> AllieBaba said:
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I'd still like a link.

Regardless. Let the fuckwads walk.


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## chanel (Feb 22, 2011)

Madeline said:


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## manifold (Feb 22, 2011)

Madeline said:


> manifold said:
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Showing up at a protest rally and being sick are not mutually exclusive.


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## boedicca (Feb 22, 2011)

If one is well enough to go to a protest rally, one is well enough to show up for work.

That is the legal and ethical obligation for the protesting teachers, one which they chose to shirk.


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## WorldWatcher (Feb 22, 2011)

AllieBaba said:


> See, I just want to see what the definition of "bargain collectively" means. If it means they want to continue to not work and still get paid, fuck that. If it means they want to get paid indefinitely while they refuse to bargain, fuck that too.
> 
> I need to see the wording and the context of "collective bargaining".




"Collective Bargaining" does not mean being able to strike and still get paid and it does not mean to get paid indefinitley while they refuse to bargain.  (Although right now it is the union that has offerred to bargin and it is Walker that is refusing.)


Under Wisconsin Law, collective bargaining is defined as... 

"Collective bargaining is the negotiating by an employer
and a majority of the employers employees in a collective bargaining
unit, or their representatives, concerning representation or
terms and conditions of employment of such employees, except
as provided under ss. 111.05 (5) and 111.17 (2), in a mutually genuine
effort to reach an agreement with reference to the subject
under negotiation."

http://legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/Stat0111.pdf​

>>>>


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## R.D. (Feb 22, 2011)

manifold said:


> Madeline said:
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Quote: Originally Posted by manifold: 
Why do they need a doctor's note anyway?


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## Ernie S. (Feb 22, 2011)

manifold said:


> Madeline said:
> 
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If they are too sick to do their JOB in a heated class room, they are too sick to march in a protest outside in the Wisconsin winter.


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## manifold (Feb 22, 2011)

Ernie S. said:


> manifold said:
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> 
> > Madeline said:
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You're entitled to your opinion, even if it has no value to me.


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## Madeline (Feb 22, 2011)

manifold said:


> Ernie S. said:
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You are now talking out your ass, mani.  Gheeze.


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## safira218 (Feb 22, 2011)

boedicca said:


> chanel said:
> 
> 
> > Teachers do not get random vacation time nor are they permitted unpaid leave. They had to use sick time. I am not excusing it, but that's the only way they could have gone to the protest.
> ...



Its still Fraud. The proper way would to basically go to the protest, and deal with the consequences afterwards. No one ever said your right to protest had to be compensated.


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## AllieBaba (Feb 22, 2011)

We have a right to assemble. I dont think we have a right to *protest* though of course that comes under the freedom of speech umbrella.

Regardless, a *right* does not imply that the rest of the nation has to subsidize it, or that you should be paid to do it, or that your job is protected if you opt to exercise that right.

The teachers have the right to skip work and hit the picket lines. We are not obligated to hold their jobs for them until they feel like coming back. We can and should oust them and hire people who appreciate their jobs, and who actually do care about what happens to the kids.


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## Madeline (Feb 22, 2011)

Ravi said:


> Madeline said:
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Ravi, every government time sheet I ever signed said right over the sig line "signed under penalties of perjury".  Mebbe theirs does, mebbe not -- in which case, claiming a week of sick leave when they were not sick would just be fraud, embezzlement, falsifying an official record, etc.


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## jillian (Feb 23, 2011)

Madeline said:


> Barb said:
> 
> 
> > martybegan said:
> ...



part of the "bargain" is that they have collective bargaining. when the employer violates that part of the contract, you take advantage of the means legally available to you.


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## Madeline (Feb 23, 2011)

jillian said:


> Madeline said:
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I get that, Jillian...but fraud is not "legally available" to the teachers and their MDs.


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## Ravi (Feb 23, 2011)

Madeline said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > Madeline said:
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When I worked for the man I never once had to sign a timesheet.


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## del (Feb 23, 2011)

Ravi said:


> Madeline said:
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well that settles it, i might as well close the thread now.


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## Ravi (Feb 23, 2011)

del said:


> Ravi said:
> 
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> > Madeline said:
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You should!

And somehow I doubt seriously that teachers sign time sheets...not that that has anything to do with the topic.


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## del (Feb 23, 2011)

Ravi said:


> del said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...



i have no idea whether or not they sign timesheets, but i'm sure that using a phony note to get paid for days you didn't work and weren't sick is wrong.


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## Ravi (Feb 23, 2011)

It may be wrong, but if it is fraud I couldn't tell you. And again, I don't think the point was to get paid, rather it was to not get fired for attending a protest.


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## del (Feb 23, 2011)

Ravi said:


> It may be wrong, but if it is fraud I couldn't tell you. And again, I don't think the point was to get paid, rather it was to not get fired for attending a protest.



oh, well, that's completely different.


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## Madeline (Feb 23, 2011)

Ravi said:


> del said:
> 
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If they dun sign timesheets, Ravi, how do they claim sick leave?  Does every teacher phone in their hours to the admin building?

Even if this were true, it would still be fraud -- and it would also be wire fraud, BTW.  You cannot deliberately lie in a statement intended to result in payment to you in a manner that enlarges that payment and it NOT be fraud.


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## Ravi (Feb 23, 2011)

del said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > It may be wrong, but if it is fraud I couldn't tell you. And again, I don't think the point was to get paid, rather it was to not get fired for attending a protest.
> ...


It is to me.


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## del (Feb 23, 2011)

Ravi said:


> del said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
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i know, that's why i'm laughing.


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## Madeline (Feb 23, 2011)

del said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > del said:
> ...



Ravi, why not face the facts:  the public employees engaging in this conduct are wrong.  Let's discuss what they SHOULD be doing to advance their interests, instead, shall we?

BTW, I have a daughter with a shiney new teaching certificate/Masters in Ed. who will not work for a school district in a state that repeals collective bargaining rights.  Kids like my daughter are the labor pool these schools will need to tap if they fire the teachers.

Mayhaps the unions should be focusing on them a tad more?


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## Madeline (Feb 23, 2011)

I also love the irony of striking to preserve a collective bargaining *right to strike*, which does not now exist.


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## R.D. (Feb 23, 2011)

Ravi said:


> It may be wrong, but if it is fraud I couldn't tell you. And again, I don't think the point was to get paid, rather it was to not get fired for attending a protest.



    H'OKAY


 * Linkiepoodle  *

Walker on Fake Sick Leave: State Employees Will be Terminated, Doctors Will Be Investigated


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## Madeline (Feb 23, 2011)

Linkiepoodle, please?


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## R.D. (Feb 23, 2011)

Madeline said:


> Linkiepoodle, please?


Click FAIL




I'll make it clearer....ooops


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## Ravi (Feb 23, 2011)

Madeline said:


> I also love the irony of striking to preserve a collective bargaining *right to strike*, which does not now exist.


That isn't what they are striking for...jebus, don't make me think you are as stupid as other posters portray you.


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## chanel (Feb 23, 2011)

They are protesting their right to EXIST. Without collective bargaining, there will be no more unions. Maddie's daughter should explain that to mom.


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## AllieBaba (Feb 23, 2011)

Ravi said:


> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> > I also love the irony of striking to preserve a collective bargaining *right to strike*, which does not now exist.
> ...


 
Never fear, Ravi, you are a long way from losing your tiara...at least to Madeline.

Though I'm thinking perhaps we should grant it to Bod...


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## boedicca (Feb 23, 2011)

chanel said:


> They are protesting their right to EXIST. Without collective bargaining, there will be no more unions. Maddie's daughter should explain that to mom.





That's actually not true.  Unions may most certainly exist without collective bargaining rights; federal employees had such a union for years.  There are other reasons for unions to exist besides such rights.


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## chanel (Feb 23, 2011)

Does the federal government take dues out of their pay? That's what Walker wants to outlaw.


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## Annie (Feb 23, 2011)

Dr.House said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> > Calling out sick is their only legal recourse if they want to protest.
> ...



'Personal days' have to be requested and approved in advance, at least any school I've worked at. The whole school system would not be approved on a given day.


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## Annie (Feb 23, 2011)

Ravi said:


> Any minute now the rightwingloons will be calling for the teachers to be shot.



You are better than this. You couldn't win the argument on its merits, so attack those that saw the problem with hyperbole.


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## Ravi (Feb 23, 2011)

Annie said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > Any minute now the rightwingloons will be calling for the teachers to be shot.
> ...


Actually, one did. He was fired, thankfully.


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## Madeline (Feb 23, 2011)

Actually, the only one calling for violence is a Democrat, Ravi.

Democrat urges unions to 'get a little bloody when necessary' - The Hill's Blog Briefing Room

That fuckwhit's career should be over for what he said.  It's unforgivable -- it's damned near a crime.  (Inciting a riot.)


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## Ravi (Feb 23, 2011)

Madeline said:


> Actually, the only one calling for violence is a Democrat, Ravi.
> 
> Democrat urges unions to 'get a little bloody when necessary' - The Hill's Blog Briefing Room
> 
> That fuckwhit's career should be over for what he said.  It's unforgivable -- it's damned near a crime.  (Inciting a riot.)


No...he's not the one I'm talking about. An Indiana AG.


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## jillian (Feb 23, 2011)

Madeline said:


> I also love the irony of striking to preserve a collective bargaining *right to strike*, which does not now exist.



they aren't protesting to preserve a "right to strike". they are protesting to preserve their right to collective bargaining.

it isn't really that complicated.

do you know what government does to employees who don't have collective bargaining rights.


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## WorldWatcher (Feb 23, 2011)

chanel said:


> Does the federal government take dues out of their pay? That's what Walker wants to outlaw.




I do believe there are provisions for federal employees who are members of unions to have that deducted from their pay.

Voluntary participation in a union does not preclude the employer from taking payroll deductions for those that want it.

"Right to work" simply means the deductions are voluntary and not madatory.  In other words joining the union is not a condition of work.



>>>>


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## Madeline (Feb 23, 2011)

SeaShadow said:


> chanel said:
> 
> 
> > Does the federal government take dues out of their pay? That's what Walker wants to outlaw.
> ...



This is actually a huge deal.  Most of you prolly have deductions that are donated to charity -- this is a time tested means of driving up total dollars donated.  Prohibiting deductions by employers for union dues is a VERY serious means of undercutting the union.

What are they gonna do?  Collect weekly, like the paperboy?


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## WorldWatcher (Feb 23, 2011)

Madeline said:


> SeaShadow said:
> 
> 
> > chanel said:
> ...




Can you link to any provisions that would not allow voluntary payroll deductions?


My understanding was that it would bar MANDATORY dues being taken from those who did not want to be part of a union.



Two very different things.



>>>>


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## Madeline (Feb 23, 2011)

SeaShadow said:


> Madeline said:
> 
> 
> > SeaShadow said:
> ...




You are 100% correct....I shall endeavor to echo-locate the information.


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## WorldWatcher (Feb 23, 2011)

Madeline said:


> You are 100% correct....I shall endeavor to echo-locate the information.




I've got it.

OK, the bill does bar government entities from deducting dues for a union even if participation is voluntary.

SECTION 276. 111.845 of the statutes is created to read:
111.845 Wage deduction prohibition. The employer may not deduct labor
organization dues from a general employees earnings.

http://legis.wisconsin.gov/JR1SB-11.pdf  (PDF Page 96)​


>>>>


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## jjfuller72 (Feb 24, 2011)

. . . yeah, like that's gonna happen.


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## Madeline (Feb 24, 2011)

jjfuller72 said:


> . . . yeah, like that's gonna happen.



Meh, we'll see.  The thin white line might just break this time.


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