# Obamacare just ruined my life



## The2ndAmendment (Sep 9, 2013)

I just received a letter from my job stating that no one will be working more than 30 hours a week.

I normally worked 48-52 hours per week generating 10 hours of regular play, and 8-12 hours of overtime time. Each hour I work averages an ADDITIONAL $ 11.25 in tips.

This means each week I will now be losing (20)(11.25) + (10)(10.50) + (10)(16.25) dollars per week.

I will now be losing an average of $ 492.50 per week.

This is nearly $ 2,000 per month.

Almost $24,000 a year ($ 23,640)

I can no longer afford my own private healthcare coverage --- thanks to Obamacare.

I will also have to find a second job, and DROP two classes at Stony Brook University.

So now I will make less money, work more hours, and it will take longer to complete my degree.

My life has been ruined by the parasites.

Obamacare just ruined my life.


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## Pete7469 (Sep 9, 2013)

Wait till it starts happening to the few bed wetters here who actually work.


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## The2ndAmendment (Sep 9, 2013)

In the previously deleted thread, all the Authoritarian scumbags were delighted that I'd be forced to get foodstamps and medicaid.

Instead of trying to create a prosperous America, they revealed their hate, spite and contempt for the working people, and made their intentions known, that they wish to drag us down with them.


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## TemplarKormac (Sep 9, 2013)

Wait till this hits liberals in the wallet. Their lives may be ruined as well.


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## ClosedCaption (Sep 9, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> In the previously deleted thread, all the Authoritarian scumbags were delighted that I'd be forced to get foodstamps and medicaid.
> 
> Instead of trying to create a prosperous America, they revealed their hate, spite and contempt for the working people, and made their intentions known, that they wish to drag us down with them.



Forced?  When you need It its forced...When others its because they are lazy.

Stop being lazy


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## francoHFW (Sep 9, 2013)

Well that sucks- this was unforseen and is a result of pub fear mongering and pub/pub dupe owners....I'm sure our congress people will quickly find a solution- sarcasm.. 

but I think this will will solve itself in a short time. Until then, at least MEDICAID will kick in if you make below 130 per cent of poverty- unless you're in one of those mindless red states- or you WILL now be able to afford it at the new exchanges.

Of course I blame the mindless Pub obstruction of a reform that is actually THEIR Heritage/NIXON/Dole plans. Dems will try to help, Pubs NOT. Sorry.


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## The2ndAmendment (Sep 9, 2013)

ClosedCaption said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
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> > In the previously deleted thread, all the Authoritarian scumbags were delighted that I'd be forced to get foodstamps and medicaid.
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Until I can find a second job, it is forced.


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## The2ndAmendment (Sep 9, 2013)

francoHFW said:


> but I think this will will solve itself in a short time.



Even a short time is an eternity when your destitute.


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## g5000 (Sep 9, 2013)

Your current company is just as much to blame as ObamaCare.

You need a full-time job which offers health insurance.  Therefore, you will need to complete your education so you can get such a job.

But...

Now that you are part-time, you will need to buy your insurance through a government-run health insurance exchange established by ObamaCare.  And since you are part-time, you will qualify for a federal subsidy, thus making you a new suckling on the government tit.

That way, when ObamaCare begins bankrupting the states and they have to choose between raising taxes or kicking all of you off the tit, you will scream for them to raise taxes.

Meanwhile, since you will have to work two jobs, you won't be able to finish your education and you will always be a government dependent.

The messiah has returned! Welcome to the eschaton, comrade!


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## chikenwing (Sep 9, 2013)

Your current company is just as much to blame as ObamaCare.

How is that,this should be a good one.


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## g5000 (Sep 9, 2013)

chikenwing said:


> Your current company is just as much to blame as ObamaCare.
> 
> How is that,this should be a good one.



The company obviously never offered health insurance to their employees.  So it is a shitty job at a shitty employer.

Now that they are being mandated by the government to provide insurance for their full time employees, the company has chosen to get rid of as many full time employees as possible by making them part time.  

Now all those part time employees will become government dependents.  The company is shoving its business expenses onto the backs of taxpayers, courtesy of the ObamaCare vehicle.


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## OriginalShroom (Sep 9, 2013)

You make sure that you send that note of thanks to your Democrat Congresscritter and your Union Leaders.


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## The2ndAmendment (Sep 9, 2013)

g5000 said:


> chikenwing said:
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> > Your current company is just as much to blame as ObamaCare.
> ...



I had no problem affording my own healthcare through my salary.

However, -$24,000 a year makes it impossible for me to get healthcare.

My employer never had to provide health insurance for me, because my job paid MORE THAN ENOUGH for me to make MY OWN choice about which plan I wanted.

------------------------------

Since i can't edit the OP, here is proof of my existence, I've had many Libtards claiming that I don't even exist:

*LIBTARD SMEAR ATTACK ANNIHILATED*​
Politics if my life faggot. Here I am talking at a meeting, and here I am on the radio:

THIS IS MY "HOBBY"

I even say that I'm waiter on the national radio, listen at 2:35


Here I am at 20:00


here's the link to my job:

https://www.facebook.com/watermillcaterers

Here's my facebook:

https://www.facebook.com/solomonscourge


*LIBTARD SMEAR ATTACK ANNIHILATED*​


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## Mr Natural (Sep 9, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> francoHFW said:
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> > but I think this will will solve itself in a short time.
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You state of destitution is nobody's fault but your own.


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## The2ndAmendment (Sep 9, 2013)

Mr Clean said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
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I'm pretty it's Obamacare's fault.

The letter specifically cited the Affordable Care Act as the sole cause.


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## Google (Sep 9, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> I just received a letter from my job stating that no one will be working more than 30 hours a week.
> 
> I normally worked 48-52 hours per week generating 10 hours of regular play, and 8-12 hours of overtime time. Each hour I work averages an ADDITIONAL $ 11.25 in tips.
> 
> ...




Yup, my employer too.  In fact one of owners wrote an open letter to all employees telling them the exact reason why everyone hours are being slashed, citing The Affordable Care Act as the cause.  

But who could have possibly seen this coming.  I am fortunate that my employer is keeping me, and a handful of others, as fulltime (at least for now, who knows what will happen when IT IS ACTUALLY ENFORCED).

Endless parades of pardons, extensions, changes in the law for corporations and unions, but no extension or pardon for the American taxpayers.


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## Immanuel (Sep 9, 2013)

OriginalShroom said:


> You make sure that you send that note of thanks to your Democrat Congresscritter and your Union Leaders.



Do you realize that they would believe he was seriously thanking them?

Immie


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## Vox (Sep 9, 2013)

ClosedCaption said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
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> > In the previously deleted thread, all the Authoritarian scumbags were delighted that I'd be forced to get foodstamps and medicaid.
> ...



are you an idiot? the guy wants to work 50 hours per week and is being forced to work LESS and you call him lazy?

wingnut reatrd


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## kidrocks (Sep 9, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> ClosedCaption said:
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No one's forcing you you piece of shit.


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## Google (Sep 9, 2013)

ClosedCaption said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
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> > In the previously deleted thread, all the Authoritarian scumbags were delighted that I'd be forced to get foodstamps and medicaid.
> ...



I can afford to cloth, shelter and feed myself on my gross income.  My net income is a different story.  You obviously don't understand the difference between the two, or how a booming economy helps alliviate poverty more than welfare.  Think surgery vs. a bandaid.  

Also, I love how you gloss over the fact, THE FACT, that Obamacare is causing people's hours and income to be reduced--FORCING people that would otherwise be able to afford food on welfare.  THINK REAL HARD.


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## g5000 (Sep 9, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> g5000 said:
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One of the ideal solutions for real health care reform would be to eliminate employer-sponsored health insurance.  I have mentioned this several times in health care topics.  Employer-sponsored health insurance drives the cost curve up.

I am glad you were paid wages which made it possible to buy your own health insurance. However, I doubt someone with a family to support would be able to do the same.

Nevertheless, I would strongly urge you to follow OriginalShroom's advice and write to your Representative and both Senators about this.  And be sure to quote from your employer's letter citing the ACA as the reason for  your sudden misfortune.

Further explain  this will cause you to drop your pursuit of higher education due to having to get a second job, thus ensuring you will become more dependent on the government's insurance subsidies rather than becoming self-sufficient.


Not kidding.  Write to your Congressmen.  Now.

Don't rant.  Don't rage.  Lay out the facts and appeal to reason.


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## Google (Sep 9, 2013)

kidrocks said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
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Demonstrate to everyone your childish demeanor, never making anything that even resembles a coherent point on the matter.  

This is how those on the left generally operate, classless.


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## LoneLaugher (Sep 9, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> I just received a letter from my job stating that no one will be working more than 30 hours a week.
> 
> I normally worked 48-52 hours per week generating 10 hours of regular play, and 8-12 hours of overtime time. Each hour I work averages an ADDITIONAL $ 11.25 in tips.
> 
> ...



Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah! Get that second job and pull up those bootstraps! You AREa real American, ain't ya?


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## Google (Sep 9, 2013)

g5000 said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
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How about deregulating the insurance industry and allowing consumers an actual F-ing choice in the matter.  I should be able to look at my family history and pick and choose what I want to be covered, or if I just want "in case I'm in a COMA" insurance--whatever consumers want.  Right now I cannot purchase insurance out of state, and if I buy in-state the government has put so many damn regulations on what has to be covered, ect, ect.  In Oregon smoking cessation MUST be covered, forcing the insurance companies to charge everyone MORE to cover this.  

There is a reason back in the 60's a hospital visit was charged reasonably.


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## Pheonixops (Sep 9, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> I just received a letter from my job stating that no one will be working more than 30 hours a week.
> 
> I normally worked 48-52 hours per week generating 10 hours of regular play, and 8-12 hours of overtime time. Each hour I work averages an ADDITIONAL $ 11.25 in tips.
> 
> ...



Sorry to hear that, especially from someone who goes to my alma mater............. It was a great campus when I went there some 20 years ago. Do they still have the book "stacks" or is everything computerized now?


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## Google (Sep 9, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
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> > I just received a letter from my job stating that no one will be working more than 30 hours a week.
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This is a perfect insight into the mind of a liberal.  Spread the misery and suffering around.  Enact laws that lowers American worker's wages.  

Vindictive, immature sociopaths.  

There is a coming backlash that the left is desperately attempting to manage.


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## LoneLaugher (Sep 9, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> Mr Clean said:
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You should have saved some money for hard times. Quit blaming others for your situation. 

And..I'd LOVE to hear the details of the health care plan that you have. How about it?


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## Moonglow (Sep 9, 2013)

I worked with an electrician who could not get company insurance because he had diabetes.


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## LoneLaugher (Sep 9, 2013)

Google said:


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You might be butthurt at having to taste your own medicine.


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## JoeB131 (Sep 9, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> I just received a letter from my job stating that no one will be working more than 30 hours a week.
> 
> I normally worked 48-52 hours per week generating 10 hours of regular play, and 8-12 hours of overtime time. Each hour I work averages an ADDITIONAL $ 11.25 in tips.
> 
> ...



So it's Obama's fault that your employer doesn't consider you a key enough person to make sure you have health care?  

Seriously?  

Because the last time I worked for $10.50 an hour, it was 1996.


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## g5000 (Sep 9, 2013)

Google said:


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I laid out my ideas here: http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...e-gop-healthcare-reform-plan.html#post7581788  (Post #14)


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## EriktheRed (Sep 9, 2013)

Guess somebody needs to pick himself up by his bootstraps, then.


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## francoHFW (Sep 9, 2013)

great job by the mindless obstructionist, fear mongering GOP, and bottom line only PUB businessmen. Blame THEM for this short term suffering...not to mention blocking the recovery with phoney crises etc.


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## chikenwing (Sep 9, 2013)

g5000 said:


> chikenwing said:
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> > Your current company is just as much to blame as ObamaCare.
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Another one that understands jack shit about running a business.


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## Google (Sep 9, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Google said:
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No, but American workers who are having their hours slashed, and desperate to find a second job who are about to have a sizable amount of 'tax' taken from them in their tax return are hurting.  

This isn't about vindictiveness, but it certainly is with you.  

I'm sure Obama's response to those hurting would be the same as yours.


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## Mac1958 (Sep 9, 2013)

Google said:


> LoneLaugher said:
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They revel is seeing a guy who wants to work overtime, who has been working overtime, having his life damaged by a completely trivial and arbitrary regulation in a massive bill written primarily by one party.  They like it, they're having fun with it, they're laughing at him.

Maybe "sociopath" isn't too strong a word.  It certainly is disturbing.

.


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## Google (Sep 9, 2013)

chikenwing said:


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Not only completely ignorant about how business works, but a knee-jerk resentment and hatred of it.


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## LoneLaugher (Sep 9, 2013)

Mac1958 said:


> Google said:
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Or....maybe "they" just like using sarcasm to point out how idiotic nutter partisan talking points are.  

Way to be insightful!


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## LoneLaugher (Sep 9, 2013)

Google said:


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Please....stop. You are failing to comprehend my words. What you think....and what is.....are two different things. You fucking idiot nutter.


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## NYcarbineer (Sep 9, 2013)

The employer healthcare mandate was delayed until 2015.


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## Google (Sep 9, 2013)

EriktheRed said:


> Guess somebody needs to pick himself up by his bootstraps, then.



This is the cookie-cutter response from our 'friends' on the left.  Not one person has addressed the undeniable fact that the Affordable Care Act having several unintended consequences, I am being an optimist saying unintended, that are hurting American workers and driving insurance premiums higher.


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## LoneLaugher (Sep 9, 2013)

NYcarbineer said:


> The employer healthcare mandate was delayed until 2015.



Yes....but 2a's employer wants to go through the hassle of hiring a bunch of new part time workers anyway. Placing ads, interviewing, background checks, uniforms, training, HR people LOVE that shit. They love having to hire and manage two people instead of one. 

Wouldn't you?


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## LoneLaugher (Sep 9, 2013)

Google said:


> EriktheRed said:
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Helloooooooo! 

We are making fun of nutters who say this all the time when people discuss income inequality. 

You are missing the sarcasm. Shit.


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## EriktheRed (Sep 9, 2013)

OriginalShroom said:


> You make sure that you send that note of thanks to your Democrat Congresscritter and your Union Leaders.



Or if it's a Republican Congresscritter, urge him/her to actually work with the other side of the aisle to work on fixes that have so far not been taken up by the House, because whether Teabaggers like it or not, *it's the law.*


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## midcan5 (Sep 9, 2013)

OMG and I thought all you right wingers were get up and go kinda people, you know work hard, stumble a little now and then, but get back and make it work. Guess I was wrong as this seems to me nothing really, suppose you lost your job to India as millions of Americans have, do you now feel for them? Don't cry for me.....

Interested parties who are not right wing whiners, and there seem to be lots of them, check out 'The Betrayal of the American Dream' by Donald L. Barlett, James B. Steele.


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## Google (Sep 9, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Google said:
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You are pathetic.  "you fucking idiot nutter"?  You've only shown to be someone with nothing to contribute.  These people are so predictable.  All of their posts are repetitive and childish.  

Not one, NOT ONE, has addressed the issue of the thread.  Just insults about another's income and job, name calling--immaturity at its finest.


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## Google (Sep 9, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Mac1958 said:
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Perhaps you just aren't involved enough in the real world.  Let me ask you this: are employers cutting workers hours or not?

That is the premise of the thread that you have not addressed, except maybe by dismissing it as talking points.  You are showing yourself you be wholly ignorant of facts.


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## LoneLaugher (Sep 9, 2013)

Google said:


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If you had picked up on my sarcasm....you would not have been called an idiot. Try harder.


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## NYcarbineer (Sep 9, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> NYcarbineer said:
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> > The employer healthcare mandate was delayed until 2015.
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This is an anonymous internet story with no evidence provided to back it up.  

I declare it innocent until proven guilty, i.e., 

innocent of being true.


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## jasonnfree (Sep 9, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> I just received a letter from my job stating that no one will be working more than 30 hours a week.
> 
> I normally worked 48-52 hours per week generating 10 hours of regular play, and 8-12 hours of overtime time. Each hour I work averages an ADDITIONAL $ 11.25 in tips.
> 
> ...



This wouldn't happen under a national health care system which all other advanced countries have.


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## Darkwind (Sep 9, 2013)

chikenwing said:


> Your current company is just as much to blame as ObamaCare.
> 
> How is that,this should be a good one.


How do you conclude that?

Until acted upon by an outside force, this company was doing okay by its employees.

I suppose in your world, any amount of cost to a business should just be tolerated for the sake of other people's twisted notion of 'social justice'.


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## NYcarbineer (Sep 9, 2013)

Maybe your employer is hiring more people so he doesn't have to pay all that overtime.


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## Mac1958 (Sep 9, 2013)

.

Imagine having fun over a guy in financial distress.

Damn, that's nasty.

Whether the story is factual or not, the responses are what the responses are.

.


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## LoneLaugher (Sep 9, 2013)

Google said:


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Sure they are. They have been for a long time to avoid paying benefits. The American worker has been getting screwed since the 70's due to the weakening of unions and the off shoring of jobs. Real wages have not increased for 20 years. Reduced pay, reduced benefits........all long before the GOP inspired Obamacare became law. 

Now...some employers are using Obamacare.....with a mandate that is more than a year away....as an excuse to keep on fucking over workers and they get to make a political point at the same time. 

I don't buy it. 

You want to have an adult discussion.....start being an adult.


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## NYcarbineer (Sep 9, 2013)

Darkwind said:


> chikenwing said:
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How do you know what the 'outside force' was?


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## chikenwing (Sep 9, 2013)

JoeB131 said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
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You self centered ass wipes,think money grows on trees.


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## bodecea (Sep 9, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


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Isn't America a great country where we can work 2 or 3 jobs?


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## Darkwind (Sep 9, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Google said:
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Actually, being an adult and having an adult conversation involves acknowledging that a business runs on a model and that another persons idea of 'social justice' is only so much whining.

How about a real adult conversation and lets talk about ways in which individuals can care for themselves without forcing others out of their own livelihood.


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## Google (Sep 9, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Google said:
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So employers actually enforcing the law, which BY LAW IS SUPPOSED TO ALREADY BE IN PLACE, is a way to make a politcal point.

That point being, this law is going to cause harm to American workers.


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## Google (Sep 9, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Google said:
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The guy calling people 'fucking nutters' wants others to starting being an adult and have an adult discussion.  IT'S ABOUT DAMN TIME.


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## Mac1958 (Sep 9, 2013)

.

Hey Republicans, if you ever come down with a difficult medical condition, you probably won't want to mention it here.  The celebrations may ruin your day.

.


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## Mac1958 (Sep 9, 2013)

Google said:


> The guy calling being 'fucking nutters' wants others to starting being an adult and have an adult discussion.  IT'S ABOUT DAMN TIME.






.


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## LoneLaugher (Sep 9, 2013)

chikenwing said:


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No....we think it grows in banks. As long as we don't let nutters make the rules. 

Just think......the dude who waits tables t the joint down the street will also have his hours cut.....2A can go down there and pick up 20 hours. Easy as pie.


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## Google (Sep 9, 2013)

NYcarbineer said:


> Maybe your employer is hiring more people so he doesn't have to pay all that overtime.



I'm convinced that none of you actually have hourly jobs, and are so out of touch with average American workers.  These responses are so naive.

Maybe you could resist the urge to demonize employers for enough time to realize the facts of this law, and the real reason employers are no longer allowing workers to work more than THIRTY hours weekly.  I'll go out on a limb and assume you know what overtime is.


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## Mac1958 (Sep 9, 2013)

Google said:


> NYcarbineer said:
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> > Maybe your employer is hiring more people so he doesn't have to pay all that overtime.
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Hey, the only good job is a GOVERNMENT job.

Private employers are rich and evil and smell stinky.

And the government cares 'n stuff.

.


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## LoneLaugher (Sep 9, 2013)

Yes....nutters. Keep on fantasizing. None of the liberals here know anything about work!


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## jasonnfree (Sep 9, 2013)

Google said:


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There is a coming backlash?   Why don't you tell us in what form this backlash  will be so we can give you credit  for your insight.


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## Hoffstra (Sep 9, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> I just received a letter from my job stating that no one will be working more than 30 hours a week.
> 
> I normally worked *48-52 hours *per week generating *10 hours* of regular play, and *8-12 hours *of overtime time...



10 + 12= 48??

thank God you're not a math teacher.


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## Immanuel (Sep 9, 2013)

jasonnfree said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
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Yeah, you'd just be one step away from being a gelding.

Immie


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## Hoffstra (Sep 9, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> ..So now I will make less money, work more hours, and it will take longer to complete my degree.
> 
> My life has been ruined by the parasites.
> 
> Obamacare just ruined my life.



why is your employer CHOOSING to cut your hours?


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## EriktheRed (Sep 9, 2013)

Mac1958 said:


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Didn't think _you_ were such a fan of that strawman, too.


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## Sunshine (Sep 9, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> I just received a letter from my job stating that no one will be working more than 30 hours a week.
> 
> I normally worked 48-52 hours per week generating 10 hours of regular play, and 8-12 hours of overtime time. Each hour I work averages an ADDITIONAL $ 11.25 in tips.
> 
> ...



No employer is going to continue providing insurance with Obama care in force.  I am probably one of the few people who read that bill cover to cover.  The largest claim it will pay is $10,000.  So if you get a $500,000 cancer or have to have a $100,000 hospitalization for surgery or other illness and that is actually a low cost hospitalization, you will be shit out of luck.

  [MENTION=42689]The2ndAmendment[/MENTION]

Check with your school about insurance.  John Hancock has a fabulous major medical plan for students.  And it is cheap.  Sadly most schools do not make their students aware of it.  You can put the whole family on it.


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## Mac1958 (Sep 9, 2013)

EriktheRed said:


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Which one?  I tossed out three straw men there.



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## Darkwind (Sep 9, 2013)

EriktheRed said:


> OriginalShroom said:
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> > You make sure that you send that note of thanks to your Democrat Congresscritter and your Union Leaders.
> ...


I guess it is too much to ask that Democrats actually work with the Republicans.  After all, the Republicans have been passing legislation that does no harm to the every day citizen who works for a living.

The same cannot be said about the Democrats and Obamacare.


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## Google (Sep 9, 2013)

Hoffstra said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
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> > ..So now I will make less money, work more hours, and it will take longer to complete my degree.
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Because his employer wants to remain in business.  My employer has, HAD, 60 fulltime employees.  Factor in providing health insurance to each of them and it is not financial feasable.  

His employer, like mine, is CHOOSING to REMAIN IN BUSINESS by reducing the number of fulltime employees.

This law has incentatived reducing workers hours.  

But this is basic stuff to anyone running a business right now, and the fact that these concepts are so foriegn so someone liberals on this thread demostrates how out of touch they are with what if happening, what I like to call REALITY.


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## Hoffstra (Sep 9, 2013)

funny how the selfish/greedy employer is getting off Scot-free.


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## LoneLaugher (Sep 9, 2013)

I just took a look at 2A's post history for the past week.  He must be on vacation.

50 hours a week my ass. 

Liars gotta lie.


----------



## Mac1958 (Sep 9, 2013)

.

These are not stupid people.  There is no fucking way they wrote this monstrosity not knowing how businesses would react and what the damage would be.

So what does that mean?

.


----------



## Darkwind (Sep 9, 2013)

Hoffstra said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > ..So now I will make less money, work more hours, and it will take longer to complete my degree.
> ...


To not do so means EVERYONE will lose their hours, permanently.

Not to difficult to figure out that Obamacare will bankrupt most small businesses unless they make these kinds of choices.

Of course. the employees may not have been getting rich at this job, but they at least had the hours they wanted.

Why do you people think it is the fault of the business when government places unreasonable and unreasoned demands upon their business model?


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 9, 2013)

Google said:


> Hoffstra said:
> 
> 
> > The2ndAmendment said:
> ...



You work full time and don't have employer sponsored insurance?


----------



## Hoffstra (Sep 9, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> I just took a look at 2A's post history for the past week.  He must be on vacation.
> 
> 50 hours a week my ass.
> 
> Liars gotta lie.



did you read the OP?

first he says he works 50 hours a week, then says he does 10 hours regular pay plus 12 hours overtime.

somehow, he is lying.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 9, 2013)

Hoffstra said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > I just took a look at 2A's post history for the past week.  He must be on vacation.
> ...



Typo.


But....he is lying.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 9, 2013)

Darkwind said:


> Hoffstra said:
> 
> 
> > The2ndAmendment said:
> ...



Most is a funny word. 

Most small businesses have far fewer than 50 employees. They are not subject to the mandate. 

Most.


----------



## Sunshine (Sep 9, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Google said:
> 
> 
> > Hoffstra said:
> ...



.......any longer, now that his hours have been cut to less than full time.


----------



## Jarlaxle (Sep 9, 2013)

JoeB131 said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > I just received a letter from my job stating that no one will be working more than 30 hours a week.
> ...



You failed math in school, didn't you?  He averages $22.75/hour before overtime.  Do you EVER get tired of looking STUPID?


----------



## cutter (Sep 9, 2013)

Those who work must sacrifice for those that won't. Now that's CHANGE YOU CAN BELIEVE IN. Great country we are turning into  isn't it.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 9, 2013)

Sunshine said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > Google said:
> ...



Good evening, Sunshine.


Why are you answering for Google? Please fuck off and let him speak for himself. 

Thanks.


----------



## Darkwind (Sep 9, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Darkwind said:
> 
> 
> > Hoffstra said:
> ...


Businesses that have fewer than 50 employees are the next target.

And why is it that you care only about employees that are in businesses that have more than 50 but not them?

Selective, is your outrage I guess.

Besides, I dispute your statistic.  So why don't you go run along and find some messaged numbers to prop you up since you cannot refute what I have stated will happen.


----------



## jasonnfree (Sep 9, 2013)

Google said:


> Hoffstra said:
> 
> 
> > The2ndAmendment said:
> ...



Incentatived?  foriegn?  Not financial feasable?  Maybe your employer decided to reduce   the number of full time _illiterate_ employees and is blaming it on the ACA instead.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 9, 2013)

Darkwind said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > Darkwind said:
> ...



Silly nutter. 

I am pleased that those who work for employers who refuse to sponsor health insurance can now go to the exchange and get competitively priced plans. It will do until we get single payer and employers are relieved of this responsibility once and for all. 

You like to tell your superiors to run along, huh. Typical nutter.


----------



## Hoffstra (Sep 9, 2013)

If an employer feels that he can make more money without you, then you were just dead weight to begin with.


----------



## Pheonixops (Sep 9, 2013)

Google said:


> Hoffstra said:
> 
> 
> > The2ndAmendment said:
> ...



If this whole thing (Obamacare) allegedly (I saw another poster state this) takes place in 2015, why are employers choosing to cut their employees hours now, instead of making it effective in 2015?


----------



## AquaAthena (Sep 9, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> I just received a letter from my job stating that no one will be working more than 30 hours a week.
> 
> I normally worked 48-52 hours per week generating 10 hours of regular play, and 8-12 hours of overtime time. Each hour I work averages an ADDITIONAL $ 11.25 in tips.
> 
> ...


*

"My life has been ruined by the parasites."*

Your life has been ruined by the parasitic government, progressives have voted into office. They and the government feed from your pain, and in the end, they will be the ones to go down, and they don't have far to fall.

I am deeply sorry for your sudden lifestyle change, that you are sharing with millions of formerly hard-working and ambitious people. 

Can we say, Rome?


----------



## Hoffstra (Sep 9, 2013)

we have already seen evidence of large corporations threatening to lay off workers and cut worker hours even though ObamaCare would cost them an average of 6 cents per customer.

employers are using this as an excuse to cut worker hours, lay off unwanted employees, so that they can INCREASE their profits.


----------



## Intense (Sep 9, 2013)

*Moved to Current Events. Zone 3 Posting Rules apply.*


----------



## Sunshine (Sep 9, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Sunshine said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



< 24 hours.


----------



## Vox (Sep 9, 2013)

Pheonixops said:


> Google said:
> 
> 
> > Hoffstra said:
> ...



our ancillary staff had their hours cut starting January 1st this year.

and there are no insurance for them anymore.

*you get what you vote for.*


----------



## Vox (Sep 9, 2013)

Hoffstra said:


> we have already seen evidence of large corporations threatening to lay off workers and cut worker hours even though ObamaCare would cost them an average of 6 cents per customer.
> 
> employers are using this as an excuse to cut worker hours, lay off unwanted employees, so that they can INCREASE their profits.



it's none of your business how the private enterprise is managing their business.

If there won't be obamacare - there won't be any cuts.

obamacare caused this misery.


----------



## JakeStarkey (Sep 9, 2013)

Business is the culprit, not Obamacare.

Let the creeps keep on creepin' on.


----------



## The2ndAmendment (Sep 9, 2013)

NYcarbineer said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > NYcarbineer said:
> ...



Here's my facebook faggot

https://www.facebook.com/solomonscourge

Here's the link to my job, faggot:

https://www.facebook.com/watermillcaterers


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 9, 2013)

Vox said:


> Pheonixops said:
> 
> 
> > Google said:
> ...



Interesting.

Your employer was providing insurance for full time ancillary staff.......but decided to cut their hours because they were going to be forced to provide insurance for them if they were kept at full time?

That sounds a bit odd. 

Why must so many people lie?


----------



## The2ndAmendment (Sep 9, 2013)

NYcarbineer said:


> Maybe your employer is hiring more people so he doesn't have to pay all that overtime.



That would be a waste in Catering.

The veteran staff can take up to three or four tables of 12-14 people each, while new comers can rarely handle more than two tables of 10.

Not mention, our Catering Hall has regular guests like Peter King and the like (even though I utterly loathe and despise the man).

However, I'm sure you Central Planning Libtards think you know what's best for a Catering Hall.


----------



## The2ndAmendment (Sep 9, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Just think......the dude who waits tables t the joint down the street will also have his hours cut.....2A can go down there and pick up 20 hours. Easy as pie.



Except for the CONFLICTING schedules, lesser combined pay (no overtime), not surety of the reliability of tips, traveling to different locations, etc


----------



## The2ndAmendment (Sep 9, 2013)

Hoffstra said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > I just received a letter from my job stating that no one will be working more than 30 hours a week.
> ...



....?

Take my thirty hours, and add 10, then add 12, (30) + (10) + (12) = 52 hours.

Sometimes you don't get all those hours every week, so you fall short to 48 hours...

and my majors are mathematics and music, you FUCKING LIBTARD THAT CANT EVEN ADD to 52 or recognize and AVERAGE


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 9, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe your employer is hiring more people so he doesn't have to pay all that overtime.
> ...



So......are they going to turn away business? If they are cutting your hours they need to hire new staff to cover.....right? 

Which is it?


----------



## Moonglow (Sep 9, 2013)

I was self employed for years and never had insurance. It was too expensive for me and my family, so I put money into savings for a medical fund.
My Papa always told me; _You can make money for other people or you can make money for yourself_. I suggest you entrepreneur yourself and find the income you want.
or get a trade.


----------



## The2ndAmendment (Sep 9, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> I just took a look at 2A's post history for the past week.  He must be on vacation.
> 
> 50 hours a week my ass.
> 
> Liars gotta lie.



It's usually slow after the Holiday weekends...

Again, you know nothing about Catering.

Also most of our hours are stacked in double shifts Friday, Saturday and Sunday, 14-16 hours per each of those days. 

Also, there's something called a CELLPHONE, where you can post on the internet during breaks.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 9, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > Just think......the dude who waits tables t the joint down the street will also have his hours cut.....2A can go down there and pick up 20 hours. Easy as pie.
> ...



Awwww. C'mon man......quit making excuses. You can do it.

Or.....you and all the other waiters in your town can unionize and fight this shit like real Americans. What will your employer do when they can't hire anyone without giving them 40 hours? They'll give you 40 hours, that's what.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 9, 2013)

BTW, 2A.....tell me about the health insurance that you are buying for yourself. I am interested.


----------



## The2ndAmendment (Sep 9, 2013)

Pheonixops said:


> If this whole thing (Obamacare) allegedly (I saw another poster state this) takes place in 2015, why are employers choosing to cut their employees hours now, instead of making it effective in 2015?



It might have something to do with TAXES, and how they are calculated from previous years.


----------



## The2ndAmendment (Sep 9, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > NYcarbineer said:
> ...



Yes, there will be less parties in general at our Catering Hall.

That's how bad Obamacare is, that they'd rather lose business and have less parties overall.

How can you possibly maintain the same number of parties when the lower management and veteran staff cannot be present?


----------



## Vox (Sep 9, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Vox said:
> 
> 
> > Pheonixops said:
> ...



they were providing some sort of insurance, but decided it is not worthy to be engaged in the obamacare crap with a lot of mandatory services to be payed for.
It is not my employer- we work in the same system but on the different levels. the ancillary staff is employed by a different company.


----------



## The2ndAmendment (Sep 9, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



No, they'll go out of business, Detroit style.

I only have one fight left, as a true _American_.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 9, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > The2ndAmendment said:
> ...



Hmmmm. You work for idiots. You are better off going elsewhere. Good businesspeople do not turn down business.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 9, 2013)

Vox said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > Vox said:
> ...



Blah....blah.....bullshit.


----------



## The2ndAmendment (Sep 9, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



I've been working there for three years.

THRE IS NO FUCKING WAY THEY CAN POSSIBLY HAVE MORE BUSINESS.

If they hired a rookie staff with NO management, the reviews and reputation of the Watermill would plummet to rock bottom.

You're a fucking moron.

You have proven why Centrally Planned economies ALWAYS fail, because FUCKTARDS like you think you have the knowledge and wisdom to run every different type and variety of business and service.


----------



## Pop23 (Sep 9, 2013)

Mr Clean said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > francoHFW said:
> ...



He's Obama?

That's the only way your statement made any sense


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 9, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > The2ndAmendment said:
> ...



You just said that your employer is going to decline business now so they can cut your hours and avoid a mandate for providing insurance that starts in a year and a half.
Do you realize how fucking stupid that sounds? You insult everyone here without even knowing it. That is how clueless you are.


----------



## The2ndAmendment (Sep 9, 2013)

As someone said on another message board:



> > It will be simple.  This is the way the exchange will work--you fork over $400 a month to the exchange and in exhange YOU WILL GET NO CARE.
> 
> 
> Yup, this is what the elite figured out:
> ...


----------



## Vox (Sep 9, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Vox said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



you are so used to lie yourself that you can't think about any logical response


----------



## The2ndAmendment (Sep 9, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



Yes, they cutting hours for their employee, and because there is no way to reliably replace those veteran workers, they must also cut back on parties and business.

Get it fuckface?


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 9, 2013)

Vox said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > Vox said:
> ...



OK.....go with that.


----------



## NYcarbineer (Sep 9, 2013)

Vox said:


> Pheonixops said:
> 
> 
> > Google said:
> ...



Idiot,

the mandate was delayed to 2015.  This is 2013.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 9, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > The2ndAmendment said:
> ...



You are lying. Businesses that are successful do not cut back on business.


----------



## Vox (Sep 9, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> Yes, they cutting hours for their employee, and because there is no way to reliably replace those veteran workers, they must also cut back on parties and business.
> 
> Get it fuckface?




I think you should quit explaining. The libtard crowd won't believe or emphasize with you.

Is there a possibility you can risk to go without insurance a year or two?

or get medicaid - if they force you to and you need to.

The best option is to concentrate on finishing your studies as soon as possible.
If you can cut any expenses - do it ( moving with a roommate, cutting plans on cellphone, cutting eating out and some other expensive fun) - I know you are young and think you life will end without all of that, but it won't.
Loosing 24K per year is a lot. But if you can buckle up instead and finish college faster - it may turn out to be the best.


----------



## Vox (Sep 9, 2013)

NYcarbineer said:


> Vox said:
> 
> 
> > Pheonixops said:
> ...



Idiot, they enacted the changes before the obamacare was moved a year.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 9, 2013)

Vox said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, they cutting hours for their employee, and because there is no way to reliably replace those veteran workers, they must also cut back on parties and business.
> ...



Yes! Bootstraps! With emphasis!


----------



## Vox (Sep 9, 2013)

The2ndAmendment,

with much less income you might be eligible for some kind of scholarship as well.


----------



## NYcarbineer (Sep 9, 2013)

Google said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe your employer is hiring more people so he doesn't have to pay all that overtime.
> ...



The law doesn't go into effect until 2015, genius.  For god's sake think before you post.


----------



## thereisnospoon (Sep 9, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> Wait till this hits liberals in the wallet. Their lives may be ruined as well.



It's already started. The howls of protest coming from union members will soon be deafening.
As of last week, the Transport Workers Union and the Int'l Longshoremans union have split with the AFL/CIO due to its support of Obamacare.
Union members who have these so called "cadillac' health insurance benefits stand to lose the most because union members typically pay little if anything toward their health insurance. Also ,their coverage is often first dollar or with very low co-pays/deductibles.
And most union member's coverage, especially public employees includes spouses and dependent children. To lose that kind of benefit on the say so of a supposedly pro union President has really got to hurt these people.
Of course Obama does not care. In his mind, everyone should be dependent upon government. 
Obamacare was a job killer from the get go. Most detractors predicted this would happen. And now the chickens have come home to roost....Thx to Rev Wright. The racist piece of shit....I digress.
Of course the Obama cheerleaders are attempting to spin the ongoing reduction in hours on business itself. They say that business owners are just being greedy and are trying to avoid THE LAW( Obama's will).....Well, they are correct in one respect. Business owners are evading Obamacare...Because for the most part it's just too God Damned expensive. So either way, workers are taking it in the shorts. Because businesses will stay open. They will either keep their full staff but reduce hours..Or they will lay off workers so that some at least will have full time (40) status.


----------



## NYcarbineer (Sep 9, 2013)

The OP's making eleven bucks an hour just on tips, on top of his wage, and he's crying poverty???

Isn't this the same poster bitching that the minimum wage is too high??


----------



## NYcarbineer (Sep 9, 2013)

Vox said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> > Vox said:
> ...



It never went into effect.


----------



## PixieStix (Sep 9, 2013)

NYcarbineer said:


> The OP's making eleven bucks an hour just on tips, on top of his wage, and he's crying poverty???
> 
> Isn't this the same poster bitching that the minimum wage is too high??




Some of you people are callous and just disgusting.

Tips are how some people make their bills


----------



## TemplarKormac (Sep 9, 2013)

Mr Clean said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > francoHFW said:
> ...



So says the supporter of entitlement programs.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Sep 9, 2013)

NYcarbineer said:


> Vox said:
> 
> 
> > Pheonixops said:
> ...



Idiot, businesses don't wait till 2015 to prepare for it. Use your head, Carbine.


----------



## NYcarbineer (Sep 9, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> Pheonixops said:
> 
> 
> > If this whole thing (Obamacare) allegedly (I saw another poster state this) takes place in 2015, why are employers choosing to cut their employees hours now, instead of making it effective in 2015?
> ...



Or, it may be a big helping of horseshit, like 99% of what you post.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Sep 9, 2013)

NYcarbineer said:


> Google said:
> 
> 
> > NYcarbineer said:
> ...



I suggest you practice what you preach.


----------



## thereisnospoon (Sep 9, 2013)

ClosedCaption said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > In the previously deleted thread, all the Authoritarian scumbags were delighted that I'd be forced to get foodstamps and medicaid.
> ...


Oh so the fast food workers are "forced' to accept what you people allege are substandard wages'..But a guy who is losing hours because of Obamacare is 'lazy'..Make up what's left of your mind.

Hey asshole. You people voted for this shit. And now you are trying to put a happy face on this disaster.


----------



## Vox (Sep 9, 2013)

NYcarbineer said:


> Vox said:
> 
> 
> > NYcarbineer said:
> ...



SO?

are you so damn stupid not to understand that if there is a threat reason even 2 years in advance the threatened business is going to act NOW?

gosh, you libtards, do you ever work in a real world, or are you just welfare-fed from cradle to the grave?


----------



## The2ndAmendment (Sep 9, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



The Watermill Catering Center is one of the most successful Catering Hals on the EAST COAST.

Peter King, Steve Israel, Gov Cuomo, and former Prez Clinton are regular guests.

Giant Mercedes Benz Christmas parties and the like.


----------



## Zona (Sep 9, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> I just received a letter from my job stating that no one will be working more than 30 hours a week.
> 
> I normally worked 48-52 hours per week generating 10 hours of regular play, and 8-12 hours of overtime time. Each hour I work averages an ADDITIONAL $ 11.25 in tips.
> 
> ...


Good.  Imagine how many people it will help.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Sep 9, 2013)

NYcarbineer said:


> The OP's making eleven bucks an hour just on tips, on top of his wage, and he's crying poverty???
> 
> Isn't this the same poster bitching that the minimum wage is too high??



Yeah, you along with all those fast food workers probably think a burger cook should make 15 bucks an hour. And you call him unreasonable? You don't work his job nor live his life, so how can you pass judgement on his financial situation?

"You don't know a man until you've walked a mile in his moccasins."

-Indian Proverb


----------



## thereisnospoon (Sep 9, 2013)

g5000 said:


> Your current company is just as much to blame as ObamaCare.
> 
> You need a full-time job which offers health insurance.  Therefore, you will need to complete your education so you can get such a job.
> 
> ...


I hope you are being sarcastic.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 9, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > The2ndAmendment said:
> ...



Great. And they will not turn away business so they can save a few bucks in worker benefits in 2015. That is what you are lying about.


----------



## The2ndAmendment (Sep 9, 2013)

Zona said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > I just received a letter from my job stating that no one will be working more than 30 hours a week.
> ...



Look at [MENTION=20497]Zona[/MENTION] 's portrait, with obama smirking saying "Republicans, U mad?"

He gets off on this.

SOCIOPATH.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Sep 9, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



I see none of you liberals have problems balancing your checkbooks. Life must be so prosperous for you. Little do you know, Obamacare will hit your paycheck too, if it already hasn't. How much will you take before you give up on "health insurance for everyone"?


----------



## The2ndAmendment (Sep 9, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



Go to a  fucking hellhole like Detroit or Chicago or Camden and worship and revel in the Progressive Paradises that they have become.


----------



## boedicca (Sep 9, 2013)

Wow. This thread is a Rorschach test which illuminates how much the leftoids Hate People.


----------



## thereisnospoon (Sep 9, 2013)

g5000 said:


> chikenwing said:
> 
> 
> > Your current company is just as much to blame as ObamaCare.
> ...



Hey sunshine..Employer provided health insurance was NEVER an entitlement. It IS known as a "fringe benefit"...A concession offered by the employer to attract better employees. That was yesterday. Health care costs have gone through a massive change. As has how insurance for same is dispensed. Once upon a time, as little as 30 years ago, health insurance was inexpensive. My employer in 1981 was charging me $5 per week for 80% coverage with no co-pay What ruined it was FEDERAL involvement in the business. Federal mandates requiring certain types of coverage and expensive regulations drove up the cost of insurance and the cost of medical care. Government fucked up the whole thing. 
No business is required to offer insurance to their employees.
And no business is going to bear the brunt of a government mandate. They will pass the cost along to the end user. Or the business wil find a way around the law or mandate. That is what they do. Adjust or die. And since the primary function of a business is to turn a profit, the business owner will protect himself and if applicable his investors/partners FIRST..That's the way it works.
Don't like it? Move to a socialist or communist country.


----------



## NYcarbineer (Sep 9, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> > Vox said:
> ...



I figured someone would try that.  The mandate was delayed in July.  According to your logic, this company needed 16 months to prepare for the 2015 date.

That means they would have done this already in 2012 to prepare for the 2014 date, since they wouldn't have known then about the delay.

lol, think before you post.


----------



## thereisnospoon (Sep 9, 2013)

Mr Clean said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > francoHFW said:
> ...



And so are those idiot fast food workers who are demanding an absurd hourly wage.
I wonder what your reaction would be if this was you or your wife. 
You'd change you tune pretty fuckin fast...


----------



## thereisnospoon (Sep 9, 2013)

kidrocks said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > ClosedCaption said:
> ...



I hope you are never in this situation. If you were,I'd laugh my ass off at you.
Fucking hypocritical bastard. Fuck you libs. You are at fault here. You brought this scourge that is Obama upon the nation.


----------



## thereisnospoon (Sep 9, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > I just received a letter from my job stating that no one will be working more than 30 hours a week.
> ...



You sure as hell aren't..


----------



## thereisnospoon (Sep 9, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Google said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



Stop whining. Stop lying.


----------



## NYcarbineer (Sep 9, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > The2ndAmendment said:
> ...



Wait a minute.  Michigan and NJ are progressive, but NY isn't?  lolol


----------



## thereisnospoon (Sep 9, 2013)

It comes as no surprise the liberals in this thread celebrate the suffering of other with whom they disagree.
Liberals are mean, vindictive nasty, envious whiners who are in a constant state of misery. 
The every day lib is not happy unless everyone else is equally miserable.
Liberals wallow in misery. They exist in a world of guilt. Guilt they have been told to feel because with any achievement there must be apology.


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## TemplarKormac (Sep 9, 2013)

NYcarbineer said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > NYcarbineer said:
> ...



LOL, don't run a business do you? Never had to deal with bureaucracy have you? If you did, you're lying; if you haven't, think before you post. A business may have just completed preparing for the mandate in 2012, but suddenly instead of 2013 which they _were_ prepared for, it's 2015. It's a whole 'nother ballgame, Carbine. With most of it in serious jeopardy as it is, a business may have difficulty preparing for it, or may have to start over completely. This isn't a split second process, mister.


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## TemplarKormac (Sep 9, 2013)

Zona said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > I just received a letter from my job stating that no one will be working more than 30 hours a week.
> ...



You know how many poster's IQ's you would raise if you stopped posting here? Just imagine.


----------



## asterism (Sep 9, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> I just received a letter from my job stating that no one will be working more than 30 hours a week.
> 
> I normally worked 48-52 hours per week generating 10 hours of regular play, and 8-12 hours of overtime time. Each hour I work averages an ADDITIONAL $ 11.25 in tips.
> 
> ...



I think your math is off a bit.  I'm sure you are going to be hurt in this and I agree that it sucks, but this:

"losing (20)(11.25) + (10)(10.50) + (10)(16.25) dollars per week" adds up to 40 hours.  You aren't losing 40 hours of work each week, you are losing at most (according to your "48-52 hours" statement) is 22 hours per week.


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## The2ndAmendment (Sep 9, 2013)

asterism said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > I just received a letter from my job stating that no one will be working more than 30 hours a week.
> ...



No, I'm including the tips.

If I work 30 hours instead of 50 hours, then I lose 20 hours.

10 of those hours are overtime at 16.25

10 of those hours are normal, at 10.50

Each of those 20 missing hours is also -11.25 in tips.

So you get

20hours($11.25 {TIP}/hour) + 10hours($10.50 {normal wage}/hour + 10hours($16.25 {overtime}/hour)

Can also redistribute the terms as:
Let A =  10.50, for wage per hour.
Let B = 16.25, for wage per overtime hour
Let C = 11.25, for average tip (yearly average) per hour

10(A+C) + 10(B+C) = 10A + 10C + 10B + 10 C = 10A + 10B + 20C


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## asterism (Sep 9, 2013)

Hoffstra said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > I just received a letter from my job stating that no one will be working more than 30 hours a week.
> ...



I think it's a typo, I think he meant to say 40 hours of regular pay.


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## asterism (Sep 9, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Google said:
> 
> 
> > Hoffstra said:
> ...



It's quite common in small companies.

We pay our employees more to compensate because it would cost $1500 per month to provide health insurance to our folks.


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## boedicca (Sep 9, 2013)

asterism said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > I just received a letter from my job stating that no one will be working more than 30 hours a week.
> ...





He has it correct.  He has 20 hours of his lost tips, 10 hours of his base pay per hour, and 10 hours (the amount of above 4) at an overtime rate.


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## asterism (Sep 9, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> asterism said:
> 
> 
> > The2ndAmendment said:
> ...



So you get an average of $11.25 in tips over and above the $10.50 per hour you get in wages?


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## The2ndAmendment (Sep 9, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...



Don't forget that taxes depend on the PREVIOUS YEAR.


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## asterism (Sep 9, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > NYcarbineer said:
> ...



No they don't.


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## thereisnospoon (Sep 9, 2013)

jasonnfree said:


> Google said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...


The
2014 and 2016 elections are going to be where the backlash against liberalism and socialism will be demonstrated. 
Liberal democrats and RINO's are going to take it in the shorts.


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## The2ndAmendment (Sep 9, 2013)

asterism said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...



They do in Suffolk County faggot.

We don't' live under a Unitary government.


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## TemplarKormac (Sep 9, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > NYcarbineer said:
> ...



Precisely. Carbine has no clue what he's talking about. He has no idea the suffering people are being put through as a result of this 'mandate'.


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## Pop23 (Sep 9, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...



Losing income is no laughing matter

Sorry to hear about that! This will come back to haunt the progressives. Sorry you had to be one of the casualties. I have a feeling there will be many more walking in those shoes in the months to come. Keep your chin up!


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## TemplarKormac (Sep 9, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> asterism said:
> 
> 
> > The2ndAmendment said:
> ...



According to the IRS, it is something known as "Tax Liability" an "Estimated Tax" which are based off of the previous years income. If a person is self employed, the tax code requires the person to submit to this rule. If a business has previous tax liability for the previous year, it is required by law to pay estimated tax for the current year if it's income exceeds $1,000. These types of income tax returns are filed with form 1040-ES. 

Estimated Taxes

Self-Employed Individuals Tax Center

Given that the business 2AD works for is a small business, then the impact would not only hit them hard, but that impact would also translate to 2AD's personal income.


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## asterism (Sep 9, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> asterism said:
> 
> 
> > The2ndAmendment said:
> ...



Why the childish name calling?

Taxes owed are based on current year's earnings.  Go look it up.

Suffolk County (NY) doesn't have an income tax.


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## asterism (Sep 9, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > asterism said:
> ...



If you have a loss of income from the previous year to current, you only need to pay the estimated tax on the income you have realized.

Go through an IRS audit and get back to me.


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## TemplarKormac (Sep 9, 2013)

asterism said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > The2ndAmendment said:
> ...



Read the links will you?


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## The2ndAmendment (Sep 9, 2013)

asterism said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > asterism said:
> ...



No, but the Watermill has property taxes and other taxes... all of which must be assessed and predicted and allocated for in advance...

TUNNEL VISION DETECTED


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## asterism (Sep 9, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> asterism said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...



Sure.



> General Rule
> In most cases, you must pay estimated tax for 2013 if both
> of the following apply.
> 1. You expect to owe at least $1,000 in tax for 2013,
> ...



http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1040es.pdf

See that?  Anyone that expects their withholding to be less than the tax paid on their 2012 tax return does not have to pay estimated tax.  Although if they expect to owe at least $1000, then they have to pay the amount they expect to owe or else they will incur penalties (but that's not in this handout, that comes when one is audited).

Really, don't play google-fu against experience.  I was unclear about the math presented, he clarified, and it's all good.  It's a shitty situation and one of the effects of Obamacare and none of the left give a shit about.

But please if you want to talk taxes some more, go for it.


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## asterism (Sep 9, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> asterism said:
> 
> 
> > The2ndAmendment said:
> ...



None of which has any bearing on how much money you're going to make this year vs. last year.

ASSHOLE ALERT TRIPPED.

(namecalling only makes you look like a douche)


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## The2ndAmendment (Sep 9, 2013)

asterism said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > asterism said:
> ...



As a resident of Suffolk County, I can guarantee that the previous year's income determines the property taxes paid, the rules and regulations of such that are modified according to the zoning.


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## asterism (Sep 9, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> asterism said:
> 
> 
> > The2ndAmendment said:
> ...



Your income is not a factor in the equation.  

Suffolk County Tax Act :: 2006 New York Code :: US Codes and Statutes :: US Law :: Justia


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## TemplarKormac (Sep 9, 2013)

asterism said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > asterism said:
> ...



Simple question, why are you ignoring someone speaking from experience? One man may have experience, the other may have more. In this case, 2AD is being directly effected by this. So what gives him reason to lie about something like this? I get the implication you are calling him a liar to his face.


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## TemplarKormac (Sep 9, 2013)

asterism said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > asterism said:
> ...



Google Fu huh? Clever.

Internal Revenue Manual

20.1.3.2.1.1  (03-31-2010)
Determining the Required Annual Payment

1. Taxpayers must pay the lesser of 90% of tax shown on the current year's return, *or the specified percentage of the tax shown on the preceding taxable year&#8217;s return as their required annual payment.
*
2. For taxpayers whose adjusted gross income in the preceding taxable year was $150,000 or less ($75,000 if married filing separately) the specified percentage is 100%.

3. For taxpayers whose adjusted gross income in the preceding taxable year was in excess of $150,000 ($75,000 if married filing separate) the specified percentage is found in the table below.


    If the preceding taxable year began in: 	The specified percentage is:
    2002 or thereafter 	                                110%
    2001 	                                                112%
    2000 	                                                110%
    1999 	                                                108.6%
    1998 	                                                105%
    1994 through 1997 	                                110%

In the case of an estate or trust, adjusted gross income is determined as provided in IRC section 67(e). See instructions for line 15b, Form 1041.

Preceding taxable year&#8217;s tax refers to the tax shown on the taxpayer&#8217;s original return, or shown on an amended return for the previous year if filed prior to the due date for that year, including extensions. 

20.1.3.2.1.1.1  (03-31-2010)
Special Rule for Tax Periods Beginning in 2009

    1. Section 6654(d)(1)(D) provides for a lower required annual payment for certain small business taxpayers. See Treas. Reg. Section 1.6654-2T.

    2. For tax periods beginning in 2009, certain small business taxpayers are required to pay only 90% (in lieu of 100% or 110%) of the preceding taxable year's tax if the following qualifications are met:

        1. The taxpayer's adjusted gross income for the taxable year beginning in 2008 was less than $500,000 ($250,000 if married filing separately for the year beginning in 2009).

        2. The taxpayer certifies that more than 50% of the gross income shown on the return for the year beginning in 2008 was income from a small business, defined as a trade or business in which the taxpayer was an owner in calendar year 2009,       and that averaged fewer than 500 employees for 2008.

    The taxpayer certifies that the qualification under 2) above has been met by checking box F on Form 2210, or box C on Form 2210-F. Form 2210 or Form 2210-F with the appropriate box checked should be filed with the return. If Form 2210 or Form 2210-F is filed separately, it should be accompanied by a signed statement that the information on the form is true and correct.

Given that this covers into Small Businesses and the like, I believe his income is an equation in the formula they use to calculate their income taxes. Given the simple aspect that his employer still is required to file two separate returns, I'd wager they adhere to the Federal Tax Code as well as the State of Virginia's.



Google Fu? You are no match for it.


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## asterism (Sep 9, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> asterism said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...



I never said he lied.  I was unclear about what he said and he clarified it for me.  He then said something I know is false and he had some words for me.  Then you jumped in and showed that you didn't even read (or you didn't understand) your own link.


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## asterism (Sep 9, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> asterism said:
> 
> 
> > The2ndAmendment said:
> ...



Read your pasted text again.

You only have to pay what you think you owe this year if it's less than last year unless you're a high earner.


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## TemplarKormac (Sep 9, 2013)

asterism said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > asterism said:
> ...



Then what happens when a business is slapped with new taxes related to Obamacare? It earns less than the previous year, meaning that it triggers what I just posted. This I assume means that the business pays more than the previous year in taxes. That means serious impact on 2ADs income as he specified. I don't post random facts just for the fun of it, asterism. That is a clever tax strategy employed by the IRS, I'll have to give them that much. 

Are you a tax preparer/accountant/banker/invstor/business owner?


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## The2ndAmendment (Sep 9, 2013)

asterism said:


> Your income is not a factor in the equation.
> 
> Suffolk County Tax Act :: 2006 New York Code :: US Codes and Statutes :: US Law :: Justia



When I go to Town Hall, it certainly fucking matters.


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## rdean (Sep 9, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> I just received a letter from my job stating that no one will be working more than 30 hours a week.
> 
> I normally worked 48-52 hours per week generating 10 hours of regular play, and 8-12 hours of overtime time. Each hour I work averages an ADDITIONAL $ 11.25 in tips.
> 
> ...



You never could afford your own private healthcare coverage.  Don't lie.


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## asterism (Sep 10, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> asterism said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...



Business owner.

The new taxes have no bearing on earnings (Adjusted Gross Income or Taxable Income to be precise).  If your earnings go down, you pay less in estimated taxes.  If your earnings go up, you pay more.  If you skip an estimated tax payment because you have a really bad quarter and then make it up because you have a really good quarter, that's fine.  The major pitfall is an incredible Christmas season, because the final estimated tax payment is on December 15th but you may end up paying a penalty if a substantial amount of your earnings are realized in the last 2 weeks of December.


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## asterism (Sep 10, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> asterism said:
> 
> 
> > Your income is not a factor in the equation.
> ...



Not when it comes time to pay your property taxes.


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## The2ndAmendment (Sep 10, 2013)

asterism said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > asterism said:
> ...



I even get a deduction for Grandma living at my house.

What are you trying to accomplish?

You don't live here.

Low income residents get deductions off the school taxes, senior citizens more-so.

Taking on a dependent also gives you a small break, I claim grandma.


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## TemplarKormac (Sep 10, 2013)

asterism said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > asterism said:
> ...



I'm intrigued. So have you had to cut hours or make cutbacks because of Obamacare? If this doesn't apply to earnings, then can you explain what they do apply to? I hear all the time of businesses being adversely effected by it.


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## asterism (Sep 10, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> asterism said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...



We don't provide benefits (we pay our folks more and tell them why) so we are not affected by Obamacare.

Businesses that provide benefits are affected because their costs are going to go up sharply.  So rather than try to plan for an unknown, they are making it a known by removing their eligibility as much as they can.  It's no different than changing the policy regarding company cars when the IRS rules regarding them changed.

Of course this was all designed to fail, to create demand for a single-payer system.  Our President said it himself.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpAyan1fXCE]Obama on single payer health insurance - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## TemplarKormac (Sep 10, 2013)

So any thoughts on when 2AD said the letter from his employer explicitly cited Obamacare as a primary reason for his cut in hours?


----------



## auditor0007 (Sep 10, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> > The employer healthcare mandate was delayed until 2015.
> ...



These companies will find, in the long run, that their costs will be higher with more employees.


----------



## theHawk (Sep 10, 2013)

Well we "pub dupe liars" have been warning this is exactly what Obamacare would end up doing.  Force companies to makes cuts, more people lose health care instead of getting health care.

You Obama-apologists can attack the OP all you want to try to discredit him, but everyone knows this is happening all over the country.  Just keep calling us 'racist' and 'obstructionists' because that's a whole lot easier than confronting the truth --that Obama and the Democrats have fucked over the country and we've only begun to see the results.  You can keep blamming corporate America and Big Business, but in the meantime the employees are left twisting in the wind.

I think there are some Democrats who are in a state of shock, not willing to acknowledge the debacle, who thought Obamacare was honestly a good thing.  Then there are those who knew this was going to happen and think its a good thing--the progressive shitbags.


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Sep 10, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> I just received a letter from my job stating that no one will be working more than 30 hours a week.
> 
> I normally worked 48-52 hours per week generating 10 hours of regular play, and 8-12 hours of overtime time. Each hour I work averages an ADDITIONAL $ 11.25 in tips.
> 
> ...



What does a survivalist need with a job and healthcare? 

Werent you headed for the hills with your shotgun shells and Cipro to await the start of WWIII?


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 10, 2013)

auditor0007 said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > NYcarbineer said:
> ...



Exactly my point.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 10, 2013)

Look at this thread!

A nutter who has expressed his disdain for the less fortunate among us comes here and shits a lie about how Obamacre is forcing his employers to cut his hours.....and cause him to drop his health insurance in a lame attempt to give evidence of the harmful effects of the law. 

Liberals, remembering this asshole's previous stances on income inequality, take the opportunity to jab him a little about his loser attitude when faced with adversity. Even though we know he's full of shit, we want to know why he's whining instead of hitting the bricks in search of a second job.....like a real American would.

Other nutters.....sensing an opportunity to make some lame points, begin laying into the liberals for being callous and uncaring....after mocking liberals for years bout being too emotional and too caring. Hopping on those high horses of human empathy, they rush to the OP's side. Of course, the inconsistencies in his story don't matter. They are on an emotional trip! Poor worker! Held down by the man! 

Then....they start advising the poor soul....who is not a payer of federal income taxes.....to take advantage of the safety nets that they love so much to get health care and catch a break on college tuition. 

Finally, a real, honest to goodness accounting guy comes in and explains some things about taxes. He does so in a very kind, even keeled manner. He is met with three dummies who begin to argue with him from an obvious disadvantage......complete with insults. 

What's next?


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## rightwinger (Sep 10, 2013)

Your company is fucking you because they are too cheap to provide basic health insurance

Blame Obama


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## JoeB131 (Sep 10, 2013)

theHawk said:


> Well we "pub dupe liars" have been warning this is exactly what Obamacare would end up doing.  Force companies to makes cuts, more people lose health care instead of getting health care.
> 
> You Obama-apologists can attack the OP all you want to try to discredit him, but everyone knows this is happening all over the country.  Just keep calling us 'racist' and 'obstructionists' because that's a whole lot easier than confronting the truth --that Obama and the Democrats have fucked over the country and we've only begun to see the results.  You can keep blamming corporate America and Big Business, but in the meantime the employees are left twisting in the wind.
> 
> I think there are some Democrats who are in a state of shock, not willing to acknowledge the debacle, who thought Obamacare was honestly a good thing.  Then there are those who knew this was going to happen and think its a good thing--the progressive shitbags.



Companies were making cuts and abusing their employees long before ObamaCare came along.  


Or have you just not been paying attention for the last 30 years.


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## asterism (Sep 10, 2013)

rightwinger said:


> Your company is fucking you because they are too cheap to provide basic health insurance
> 
> Blame Obama



It's not always a matter of being "too cheap."  Seriously, we have looked and the most basic plan we could find was about $1000 per month per employee.


----------



## JoeB131 (Sep 10, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Look at this thread!
> 
> A nutter who has expressed his disdain for the less fortunate among us comes here and shits a lie about how Obamacre is forcing his employers to cut his hours.....and cause him to drop his health insurance in a lame attempt to give evidence of the harmful effects of the law.
> 
> ...


----------



## JoeB131 (Sep 10, 2013)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > I just received a letter from my job stating that no one will be working more than 30 hours a week.
> ...



He's going when his shift ends!


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 10, 2013)

asterism said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Your company is fucking you because they are too cheap to provide basic health insurance
> ...



You have stated that you pay employees extra so they can get their own insurance. It is cheaper that way?

What is the fine for ignoring the mandate going to be?


----------



## DigitalDrifter (Sep 10, 2013)

Well this apparently is what Americans wanted, they elected and re-elected the piece of shit so Americans can live with the consequences.


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## Mac1958 (Sep 10, 2013)

.

Holy crap, look at all the posts blaming businesses for the effects of Obamacare.  It's the fault of *private business* that the shit is beginning to hit the fan over a law the Democrats wrote.  And they're not anti-business, right?

So the message from the Left is very consistent:

Are you a business who can't expand because of the effects of Obamacare?
*Tough shit.*

Are you a business who has to decrease hours for employees because you can't afford Obamacare?
*Tough shit.*

Are you a business who can't hire more employees because the costs of Obamacare would be too high?
*Tough shit.*

Are you a business whose profits and abilities to compete in international markets will be squeezed because of Obamacare?
*Tough shit.*

Are you an employee who lost your job or didn't get a job because of the effects of Obamacare?
*Tough shit.*

Are you a business who has to deal with the increased costs and regulations of Obamacare?
*Tough shit.*

Are you an employee who saw your hours reduced because of the effects of Obamacare?
*Tough shit.*

Are you an employee who will lose your health benefits because of the effects of Obamacare?
*Tough shit.*

Are you a job applicant who won't get the job because of the effects of Obamacare?
*Tough shit.*


Now, folks, go ahead, tell us how you're "pro business". 

Tell us how you "care" about those who work for private business.

Liars.  Just be honest, just once.  Your loyalties are obvious.

Looking forward to the deflections, diversions, distortions.

.


----------



## dblack (Sep 10, 2013)

DigitalDrifter said:


> Well this apparently is what Americans wanted, they elected and re-elected the piece of shit so Americans can live with the consequences.



At best, only a slim majority of Americans wanted this. The question is whether they have the right to force their wants on the rest of us.


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## LoneLaugher (Sep 10, 2013)

I am pro business. Which is why I want single payer. Businesses remove the shackles of employer sponsored health care.and...get healthy employees. Workers get more mobility. 

A win-win.


----------



## JoeB131 (Sep 10, 2013)

Mac1958 said:


> .
> 
> Holy crap, look at all the posts blaming businesses for the effects of Obamacare.  It's the fault of *private business* that the shit is beginning to hit the fan over a law the Democrats wrote.  And they're not anti-business, right?
> 
> ...



I can't be sympathetic to the businesses, because they are the ones who fought TOOTH AND NAIL against HillaryCare 20 years ago, when this problem was smaller and a lot more containable. 

Said businesses also fought against Medicare Buy ins for those over 55 and a public option.  
For that matter, Single Payer would make our businesses a LOT more competitive in the international market, since most of our major competitors HAVE single payer. 

Also, having been fired from a company because despite excellent performance reviews, an insurance company thought I was running up too many medical bills, I just can't feel that bad for them when they get screwed.  Businesses were acting like a bunch of Douchebags long before ObamaCare came along.  It's not like they needed an excuse. 

Now, that said, I think ObamaCare does have a lot of flaws. But what we were doing was worse.   We were spending the most money and getting the worst results.


----------



## dblack (Sep 10, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> I am pro business. Which is why I want single payer. Businesses remove the shackles of employer sponsored health care.and...get healthy employees. Workers get more mobility.
> 
> A win-win.



It doesn't matter what you say you want, it's how you vote that matters. You're supporting people who deliberately blocked single payer, who implemented a law designed to prop up existing insurance corporations at our expense. I can't imagine how you reconcile that.

Corporatism is only a win-win for those on the take. For the rest of us, it sacrifices the most fundamental principles of liberal democracy.


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## DigitalDrifter (Sep 10, 2013)

It's so unfortunate that we live in a country where so many want the government to do everything for them.
Any day now, I expect Dims will be pushing for a bill requiring government to tuck them in at night.
That will of course be after the "please wipe my ass for me" bill is passed.


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## JoeB131 (Sep 10, 2013)

dblack said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > I am pro business. Which is why I want single payer. Businesses remove the shackles of employer sponsored health care.and...get healthy employees. Workers get more mobility.
> ...



Actually, I agree. It is pretty horrible that in order to avoid a "Harry and Louise" style campaign that derailed  HillaryCare, Obama comprimised with big insurance to get this passed.  

But like it or not, Corporatism is a fact of life in this country.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 10, 2013)

dblack said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > I am pro business. Which is why I want single payer. Businesses remove the shackles of employer sponsored health care.and...get healthy employees. Workers get more mobility.
> ...



Deliberately blocked single payer, huh? Nice revision. 

I support progressive candidates. Those I support advocate for single payer. When no progressive candidate is in the race, I support the one who is more likely to lean progressive. Simple, really.


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## dblack (Sep 10, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



Very simple, indeed.


----------



## JoeB131 (Sep 10, 2013)

DigitalDrifter said:


> It's so unfortunate that we live in a country where so many want the government to do everything for them.
> Any day now, I expect Dims will be pushing for a bill requiring government to tuck them in at night.
> That will of course be after the "please wipe my ass for me" bill is passed.



Hyperbole much?  

Okay, let's get real. The problem with ObamaCare is that the current system of working for your health care, insted of just having it provided like every other civilized country does, is failing and has been failing for years.  

Some companies can't provide health care. 
Some companies provide it, but what they are providing is crap. 
Some companies provide it, and then the insurance companies do what they can to not keep their promises.  

Keep in mind, the ONLY reason why the US has health care provided as a perq of employment is because During WWII, wage increases were frozen and companies needed a new incentive to attract good workers.  

Then the company plan got replaced by the HMO, and the HMO got replaced by things that were worse.  

I remember during the HillaryCare days, HMO were c alled "Horrible Medical Options".   

Flash forward to a couple years ago, when our HR lady bragged about how happy she was that her husband had an HMO instead of the crap we provide.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 10, 2013)

Lies.


----------



## DigitalDrifter (Sep 10, 2013)

Remember when Obama said:

*"If you're one of the more than 250 million Americans who already have health insurance, you will keep your health insurance." 
*


----------



## Mac1958 (Sep 10, 2013)

DigitalDrifter said:


> Remember when Obama said:
> 
> *"If you're one of the more than 250 million Americans who already have health insurance, you will keep your health insurance."
> *




Aw, he was just kidding.

He's a kidder.

.


----------



## JoeB131 (Sep 10, 2013)

Pauli007001 said:


> I"This problem" 20 years ago?
> Obamacare IS the problem.
> Prior to Obama care there were 10 million uninsured in the USA, that was during the Bush years.
> Then the lib press doubled the figure to 20 million.
> ...



Guy, you are the one who tried to claim that more people are killed with feet than with guns.  

The 46 Million figure has been around since the Bush years.   It was pretty much bandied about during the HillaryCare debate.  

Of course, it's not just the 46 million without insurance that was the problem. 

It was the 25 million with inadequate insurance as well.  

It was the fact that medical inflation increases at 3 times the rate of normal inflation because the costs of treating those who can't pay are shifted over to those who can.


----------



## JoeB131 (Sep 10, 2013)

Mac1958 said:


> DigitalDrifter said:
> 
> 
> > Remember when Obama said:
> ...



Aw, guy, get real. 

If you had a private plan, they were changing it every year.  

You know what has stopped at  my company since ObamaCare?  

The Annual, "this is how your insurance is going to be more expensive and less useful this year" meeting HR would hold for us.


----------



## JoeB131 (Sep 10, 2013)

Pauli007001 said:


> [
> 
> Were you a whiney bitch then too?
> Loser.



Only guy I see whining here is you, retard.


----------



## Vox (Sep 10, 2013)

Pauli007001 said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > Lies.
> ...



whatewer HE is spewing here.

the guy has no idea what he is talking about and simply lies.


----------



## Mr Natural (Sep 10, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > The2ndAmendment said:
> ...




You're an hourly worker in a catering hall?

If that's your idea of a viable career in Suffolk County, then your life was ruined way before Obamacare took effect.


----------



## Vox (Sep 10, 2013)

Mr Clean said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...




*He is a college student, idiot 

rhetorical question - why are all the libtards on this thread either bigoted haters or retarded liars, or BOTH?*


----------



## Mr Natural (Sep 10, 2013)

Vox said:


> Mr Clean said:
> 
> 
> > The2ndAmendment said:
> ...




Just trying to keep up with you people.


----------



## Vox (Sep 10, 2013)

Leftards are so mentally challengedthat they don't even know what a rhetorical question means


----------



## Mac1958 (Sep 10, 2013)

JoeB131 said:


> Mac1958 said:
> 
> 
> > DigitalDrifter said:
> ...





So, if true, does this forgive the promises Obama made?

First, you can keep your insurance.  Second, your premiums will decrease by $2500 per year.  Loud and clear, hundreds of times, everywhere he went, every time he spoke.

Was he kidding, lying or ignorant?  And does it matter to you?  Will you just defend Obamacare because of who wrote it and because it "gets" businesses?

What precisely should we believe from this person in the future?

.


----------



## JakeStarkey (Sep 10, 2013)

2dA believes  in the individual and hard work.

He is crying because his business decided t, which is businesses' right to do so.

So the hard worker of the far right reactionary work force better put his organic transport to use and go find a better job, or better yet, start his own.


----------



## Vox (Sep 10, 2013)

bigoted fakey with his today's portion of lies


----------



## Mac1958 (Sep 10, 2013)

.

It was written by Democrats.

It fucks over private business.

That's all that matters to them, no matter what the damage, no matter what the consequences, no matter how far removed from Single Payer it is.

.


----------



## Sunshine (Sep 10, 2013)

I own a business, but I do not employ any people.  If I did, I would do exactly the same thing.  Obama has given carte blanche to every business in the US to do this, and we all know that the motive for business is profit, not charity.  Why should a business provide your health care?  There is no rational reason.  For some businesses, providing health coverage is a benefit that attracts good qualified people to work.  But you can work more people for fewer hours each and be farther ahead than you would be by providing insurance.  There is no rational reason why any business should not do exactly that.  It was just that until now, recruiting the best people required a little 'extra.'   That is no longer true.

The entire country is reorganizing it's business plan around Odumbo care.  And the business community will come out on top.


.


----------



## Dante (Sep 10, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> I just received a letter from my job stating that no one will be working more than 30 hours a week.
> 
> I normally worked 48-52 hours per week generating 10 hours of regular play, and 8-12 hours of overtime time. Each hour I work averages an ADDITIONAL $ 11.25 in tips.
> 
> ...



You work?    where?  You spend so much time posting there is obviously something wrong with you and your story


----------



## Dante (Sep 10, 2013)

Mr Clean said:


> Vox said:
> 
> 
> > Mr Clean said:
> ...


A student who also works well over 24 hours and posts online for most of the day?  Talk about a life ruined...      this story does not add up

   exposed


----------



## Mr Natural (Sep 10, 2013)

Dante said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > I just received a letter from my job stating that no one will be working more than 30 hours a week.
> ...



You noticed that too, ay?

With 20+ posts per day, one has to wonder how he finds time to work much less go to school.


----------



## Dante (Sep 10, 2013)

Mr Clean said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > The2ndAmendment said:
> ...



He/she should be required to post proof of existence. LOL


----------



## Luddly Neddite (Sep 10, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> I just received a letter from my job stating that no one will be working more than 30 hours a week.
> 
> I normally worked 48-52 hours per week generating 10 hours of regular play, and 8-12 hours of overtime time. Each hour I work averages an ADDITIONAL $ 11.25 in tips.
> 
> ...



I have an idea. let's all just ignore the FACT that this has been going on a lot longer than ObamaCare has been around to blame it on. 

Hospitals were real ground breakers in this dirty trick. After Reagan signed EMTALA into law, the hospitals saw that they were going to be losing a lot of money to dead beats who didn't have insurance. They started cutting hours, hiring temps and floating the higher paid people from one department to another. 

ObamaCare is not the cause or the reason for companies to cut hours. Its a handy excuse but if the rw's would bother to educate themselves instead of spending hours whining and lying, they would know that. 

There have been dozens of links posted about ObamaCare. There's one in my sig which may or may not address this issue. 

And, even the rw's have access to a little known free service available on line called GOOGLE DOT COM.

Have any of you ever considered educating yourselves and then taking your knowledge to the bargaining table at your employer?

Oh wait - that's right. You don't have the power to bargain because you are anti-union.

You have worked hard to cut off your own legs and you deserve exactly what you're getting.


----------



## Luddly Neddite (Sep 10, 2013)

Dante said:


> Mr Clean said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



I noticed the same thing. 

If he really lost hours at work, that means he'll be here less because he's using his work computer. 

No wonder his employer cut his hours.


----------



## Dante (Sep 10, 2013)

Luddly Neddite said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > Mr Clean said:
> ...



If the story were even partly true,  USMB and internet access would be more responsible for a ruined life than Obamacare.       gawd, right wingers are sooo dense


----------



## peach174 (Sep 10, 2013)

Luddly Neddite said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > Mr Clean said:
> ...




You all seem to have missed the fact that he always posts here in the evenings, not during the day.


----------



## Mr Natural (Sep 10, 2013)

peach174 said:


> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



3:49PM is the evening?


----------



## Luddly Neddite (Sep 10, 2013)

Luddly Neddite said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > I just received a letter from my job stating that no one will be working more than 30 hours a week.
> ...




The OP is not true. 

Period.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 10, 2013)

Pauli007001 said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > Lies.
> ...



England, huh? They still have it don't they?
I experienced single payer in Japan...10 years worth. It was great.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 10, 2013)

peach174 said:


> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



Bullshit. 

And..caterers work at night.


----------



## JakeStarkey (Sep 10, 2013)

Vox said:


> bigoted fakey with his today's portion of lies



"bigoted" and "lies" from "He is crying because his business decided [to cut his hours], which is businesses' right to do so.  //   So the hard worker of the far right reactionary work force better put his organic transport to use and go find a better job, or better yet, start his own."

Every statement of mine above is true, and Vox is just attacking personality because she can't attack:

(1) yes, 2dA is crying because his hours were cut (true statement)

(2) yes, it is business right to do so

(3) yes, 2dA claims to be hard core individualist

(4) yes, my opinion that he should "find a better job, or better yet, start his own" is true as well


----------



## EriktheRed (Sep 10, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Pauli007001 said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...




Ask, the good folks in England, Japan, Canada, et. al. if they'd like to dump their horrible socialistic HC systems and have ours. Got a pretty good feeling most will say not only "No", but *"Fuck no!"*


----------



## Dante (Sep 10, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> I just received a letter from my job stating that no one will be working more than 30 hours a week.
> 
> I normally worked 48-52 hours per week generating 10 hours of regular play, and 8-12 hours of overtime time. Each hour I work averages an ADDITIONAL $ 11.25 in tips.
> 
> ...


12:49pm

48 plus hours a week.  Plus classes, plus study time, plus...plus travel time gettong around campus and the world...lol...plus time to eat, shit and sleep, shop for food or snacks.....


When did we run out of time?


----------



## Dante (Sep 10, 2013)

Pauli007001 said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > Pauli007001 said:
> ...



Freedom? We allow people like you to breathe the same air as the rest of society.


----------



## Dante (Sep 10, 2013)

Pauli007001 said:


> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



Do you steal from your employer by posting all day from your smart phone?


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 10, 2013)

Pauli007001 said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > Pauli007001 said:
> ...



10 years. My wife bore three children....her father and her aunt had long bouts with cancer and it did not bankrupt her family. I know what I am talking about. You lose......again.

BTW....I have insurance ..but I still waited for three hours in an ER here with the tip of my index finger hanging by a the skin before I was seen by a doc. I did have a meeting with the billing department after an hour or so, though. Fuck this shit.


----------



## peach174 (Sep 10, 2013)

Mr Clean said:


> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> > Luddly Neddite said:
> ...



It depends on what part of the country you live.
3:49 p.m. on the board time is 6:49 p.m. on the East Coast.

The point is you have no idea when he goes to work or when he gets home, but seeing as how he always posts in late afternoon and evenings means, during the day he is at work.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 10, 2013)

Pauli thinks the Brits are stupid. Cool.


----------



## Dante (Sep 10, 2013)

peach174 said:


> Mr Clean said:
> 
> 
> > peach174 said:
> ...



Working well over (by his/her own words) 40 hoirs a week while going to school?

Okay. Okie dokie.


----------



## Dante (Sep 10, 2013)

http://www.usmessageboard.com/members/the2ndamendment.html 


The2ndAmendment said:


> 1) National Health Care
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Lots of insight on a profile page


----------



## Dante (Sep 10, 2013)

Pauli007001 said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > Pauli007001 said:
> ...


  really?  You are an immigrant?  Ptooe!  I think the last thing America needs is more immigrants like you. You take and then shit on us


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 10, 2013)

Pauli007001 said:


> [MENTION]u[/MENTION]
> 
> 
> 
> ...



33 years, huh? How did you survive?

You need to stop lying.


----------



## ClosedCaption (Sep 10, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> ClosedCaption said:
> 
> 
> > The2ndAmendment said:
> ...



No its not it's because you are lazy and shiftless.


----------



## The2ndAmendment (Sep 10, 2013)

Vox said:


> Mr Clean said:
> 
> 
> > The2ndAmendment said:
> ...



Aside from the fact that I am going to college.

WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH making $36,000 a year+ at a Catering Hall


----------



## The2ndAmendment (Sep 10, 2013)

Dante said:


> You work?    where?  You spend so much time posting there is obviously something wrong with you and your story



Watermill Catering Cneter, here' my facebook and my employer's facebook

This was covered already.

Also, most of our hours are crammed on double shifts Friday through Sunday.

https://www.facebook.com/solomonscourge

https://www.facebook.com/watermillcaterers


----------



## The2ndAmendment (Sep 10, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> peach174 said:
> 
> 
> > Luddly Neddite said:
> ...



On weekends Caterers work ALL DAY AND NIGHT.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 10, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> Vox said:
> 
> 
> > Mr Clean said:
> ...




Hold on a sec, please.

If you are losing 24K by having your hours cut from 52 to 30 ( 22 hours ).....how is it possible that you only make 36K in total? You only make 12K for the first 30 hours? You should be making over 50K. 

Your nose must be a foot long by now.


----------



## The2ndAmendment (Sep 10, 2013)

Dante said:


> 48 plus hours a week.  Plus classes, plus study time, plus...plus travel time gettong around campus and the world...lol...plus time to eat, shit and sleep, shop for food or snacks.....
> 
> 
> When did we run out of time?



*LIBTARD SMEAR ATTACK ANNIHILATED*​
Politics if my life faggot. Here I am talking at a meeting, and here I am on the radio:

THIS IS MY "HOBBY"

I even say that I'm waiter on the national radio, listen at 2:35


Here I am at 20:00


here's the link to my job:

https://www.facebook.com/watermillcaterers

Here's my facebook:

https://www.facebook.com/solomonscourge


*LIBTARD SMEAR ATTACK ANNIHILATED*​


----------



## boedicca (Sep 10, 2013)

2nd,

You don't owe it to anybody to justify how you are supporting yourself through college.  Also, I'd remove the PI.  There are people here who are not to be trusted with that type of info.

boe


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 10, 2013)

Alex Jones will lead you nowhere. Find a new hero.....for your own sake.


----------



## The2ndAmendment (Sep 10, 2013)

Dante said:


> http://www.usmessageboard.com/members/the2ndamendment.html
> 
> 
> The2ndAmendment said:
> ...



That was a long time ago, I was still dissolving the Libtard disease that was inflicted on me, this should sum it up

http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...ertarian-from-being-a-former-progressive.html


----------



## TemplarKormac (Sep 10, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Alex Jones will lead you nowhere. Find a new hero.....for your own sake.



Ok, LL. I've had just about enough of your attacks on 2AD. Time for me to raze your sorry liberal butt to the ground.

First of all, you follow Obama like a lost child. For all intents and purposes he is _your_ hero. He leads you by the hand everywhere (or at least you think he should). You would let him decree every step if you could led him. If he speaks it, it must be true.  You cry and whine about entitlements and decry the wealthy, nothing but an ingrate. You berate those who don't share your beliefs and you bully those who challenge you. You are not wise enough to count your own blessings instead of being envious of the multitude of blessings others receive. You are intellectually dishonest and habitually twist facts to suit twisted arguments. You take no time in degrading others. 

There are people here including 2AD who have way more life experience than you. If it's one thing I cannot stand it's people with not one iota of real life experience attacking the livelihood of another. There are people here on this board who are struggling to make ends meet, and you dare assail them for it? 

You are liken to an ant attacking an elephant. The elephant doesn't see you when he tramples you underfoot. The elephant is wise enough to keep moving. 

Negged.


----------



## The2ndAmendment (Sep 10, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > Vox said:
> ...



I said 36,000+

The last tow years I made above 40k.

30hoursx (10.50 + 11.25) = 652

652*4weeks*12months=31,320

That above assumes that I never take a vacation, since I take two 2-week vacations (unpaid), and I leave the Catering hall each semester during final seasons, I lose 3 months total. so 75% of 31,320 is 23,490

So now I'll be making 23,490 BEFORE taxes.

The extra 20 hours with the overtime generated an additional 23,640

However, that to is subject to the 75% smack so that's actually 17,730

32,640 + 17,730 = 41,200  BEFORE TAXES.

You Libtards make me sick.

This is why central planning by ivory tower Libtards always fails.

*YOU DO NOT KNOW ENOUGH INFORMATION ABOUT EVEN A SINGLE PERSON TO MAKE CHOICES FOR THEM.*

Let this thread embarrass you Central Planners for the rest of yo lives.


----------



## The2ndAmendment (Sep 10, 2013)

boedicca said:


> 2nd,
> 
> You don't owe it to anybody to justify how you are supporting yourself through college.  Also, I'd remove the PI.  There are people here who are not to be trusted with that type of info.
> 
> boe



No, let the Personal Info remain.

I want everyone to see what sociopaths Authoritarian trash "Progressives" are.

Share this thread on facebook and twitter for everyone to see.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 10, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > Alex Jones will lead you nowhere. Find a new hero.....for your own sake.
> ...



Did you just "raze me to the ground"?

You silly boy. You speak of my life experience.....as if you come close.

I don't "assail" people who struggle.....I call out liars. I especially like to fuck with blowhards like you. 

You negged me, did ya? Ouch! Please.......No more! Mercy!


----------



## TemplarKormac (Sep 10, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



A liar accusing other people of lying. How cute.

I am unemployed no thanks to the "savior" you call Obama. He has literally done nothing to help me improve my prospects of employment. I've been in and out four different jobs since he became president. He is too busy starting wars to keep his promises and ensure my job security. 

No telling what you meant by "I like to fuck with blowhards like you" although it may suggest an unnatural perversion you need to have checked out by the nearest mental health professional. It could also mean you are lashing out because someone called you on your bullshit and won't back down. 

I'm battle hardened boy. I'm only 25 but I've lived through more hell than you would care to imagine.


----------



## The2ndAmendment (Sep 10, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Did you just "raze me to the ground"?
> 
> You silly boy. You speak of my life experience.....as if you come close.
> 
> ...



You and [MENTION=15512]Dante[/MENTION] have been razed to the ground.

I provided all the information proving my existence as Edward Solomon and divulged and revealed lots of personal information.

Your smear attack is done.

Your nothing but propaganda filth.

*LIBTARD SMEAR ATTACK ANNIHILATED*​
Politics if my life faggot. Here I am talking at a meeting, and here I am on the radio:

THIS IS MY "HOBBY"

I even say that I'm waiter on the national radio, listen at 2:35


Here I am at 20:00


here's the link to my job:

https://www.facebook.com/watermillcaterers

Here's my facebook:

https://www.facebook.com/solomonscourge


*LIBTARD SMEAR ATTACK ANNIHILATED*​


LoneLaugher said:


> Hold on a sec, please.
> 
> If you are losing 24K by having your hours cut from 52 to 30 ( 22 hours ).....how is it possible that you only make 36K in total? You only make 12K for the first 30 hours? You should be making over 50K.
> 
> Your nose must be a foot long by now.



I said 36,000+

The last tow years I made above 40k.

30hoursx (10.50 + 11.25) = 652

652*4weeks*12months=31,320

That above assumes that I never take a vacation, since I take two 2-week vacations (unpaid), and I leave the Catering hall each semester during final seasons, I lose 3 months total. so 75% of 31,320 is 23,490

So now I'll be making 23,490 BEFORE taxes.

The extra 20 hours with the overtime generated an additional 23,640

However, that to is subject to the 75% smack so that's actually 17,730

32,640 + 17,730 = 41,200  BEFORE TAXES.

You Libtards make me sick.

This is why central planning by ivory tower Libtards always fails.

*YOU DO NOT KNOW ENOUGH INFORMATION ABOUT EVEN A SINGLE PERSON TO MAKE CHOICES FOR THEM.*

Let this thread embarrass you Central Planners for the rest of your lives.


----------



## JakeStarkey (Sep 10, 2013)

2dA, you are responsible for yourself, no one else.

Grow up, get out there, and get a job.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 10, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...



There you go again. 

"Battle hardened". You are very lame. 

Fucking with you.....like I am doing now. I am enjoying it. 

What hell have you been through? Did your bosses tell you what to do at work? 

Four jobs since Obama became President? That sounds like you have spoiled the opportunity that exists. You must be a real hard working guy. Indispensable.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Sep 10, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> I am pro business. Which is why I want single payer. Businesses remove the shackles of employer sponsored health care.and...get healthy employees. Workers get more mobility.
> 
> A win-win.



True. 

And with single payer, health insurance companies can go back to being health insurance companies, not health maintenance providers, at which they suck. 

Its a win all the way around.


----------



## Luddly Neddite (Sep 10, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > Alex Jones will lead you nowhere. Find a new hero.....for your own sake.
> ...



Careful LoneLaugher, he might throw a bible or two at you. 

Templar Tantrum Kormac, you're here every day, ranting like a loon. You come across as a very young person. My bet is that almost every person here has more "life experience" than you do.


----------



## The2ndAmendment (Sep 10, 2013)

Luddly Neddite said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



What, you're afraid to include his entire post in the quote?

Are you the one who cheers at the death of babies so you can push gun control propaganda?

Look at the pleasure this Gun Grabber takes in the death of babies:
http://www.usmessageboard.com/current-events/312268-another-baby-killed-with-a-gun.html


----------



## Luddly Neddite (Sep 10, 2013)

JakeStarkey said:


> 2dA, you are responsible for yourself, no one else.
> 
> Grow up, get out there, and get a job.



Same with Templar Tantrum at work losing him 4 jobs in 5 years. 

You kids need to grow up and take responsibility for what you say and do.


----------



## Vox (Sep 10, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> Vox said:
> 
> 
> > Mr Clean said:
> ...



absolutely nothing.

but you can not convince people who are lying themselves that you tell the truth.


----------



## Vox (Sep 10, 2013)

peach174 said:


> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



and never on the weekends

plus 20+ posts per day is NOTHING for the young and emotional  look at the speed they text on a phone


----------



## Luddly Neddite (Sep 10, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...



Here you go. Read it and you'll see why I c/p'd onnly what I was addressing. Is that against the rules? Are you a moderator or admin? If not, tattle and let them decide.



> Ok, LL. I've had just about enough of your attacks on 2AD. Time for me to raze your sorry liberal butt to the ground.
> 
> First of all, you follow Obama like a lost child. For all intents and purposes he is your hero. He leads you by the hand everywhere (or at least you think he should). You would let him decree every step if you could led him. If he speaks it, it must be true. You cry and whine about entitlements and decry the wealthy, nothing but an ingrate. You berate those who don't share your beliefs and you bully those who challenge you. You are not wise enough to count your own blessings instead of being envious of the multitude of blessings other receive. You are intellectually dishonest and habitually twist facts to suit twisted arguments. You take no time in degrading others.
> 
> ...



What I posted was to hold adults legally responsible for their guns so yeah, its the opposite of you nutters want. Wuit whining and act like an adult. That's more than Templar Tantrum and phony little 2nd amendment can do.


----------



## Luddly Neddite (Sep 10, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> Vox said:
> 
> 
> > *He is a college student, idiot
> ...



Why whine about having 4 jobs in five years then? When I was in college, I worked two and three jobs at the same time. 

Make up your mind cuz the way you change your story when someone questions you ... well, let's just say it makes you look like you just might be .... Oh never mind.


----------



## Luddly Neddite (Sep 10, 2013)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > I am pro business. Which is why I want single payer. Businesses remove the shackles of employer sponsored health care.and...get healthy employees. Workers get more mobility.
> ...



Thanked for being on topic... 

which I wasn't.

sorry 'bout that.


----------



## Vox (Sep 10, 2013)

Luddly Neddite said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > Vox said:
> ...



it was not him talking about 4 jobs.

you mixed them


----------



## Mac1958 (Sep 10, 2013)

.

Why in the world would anyone who supports Single Payer defend this disaster?  This isn't even in the same freakin' ZIP code as Single Payer.

Oh yeah, the Democrats wrote it.   So they'll pretend it's real close to Single Payer.

Never mind.

.


----------



## Vox (Sep 10, 2013)

Mac1958 said:


> .
> 
> Why in the world would anyone who supports Single Payer defend this disaster?  This isn't even in the same freakin' ZIP code as Single Payer.
> 
> ...



my thoughts exactly


----------



## JoeB131 (Sep 10, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Pauli007001 said:
> 
> 
> > [MENTION]u[/MENTION]
> ...



Pauli's life is whatever he needs it to be in order to rationalize his crazy LiberTARDian philosophy.  

Brought to you by a grant from the Koch Brothers.


----------



## The2ndAmendment (Sep 10, 2013)

Luddly Neddite said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > Vox said:
> ...



I have been workgin at the catering hall for over 4 years faggot, I never had any other job since. Wtf are you talking about?

You worked two or three jobs 50+ hours per week at the same time? That would be over 150 hours working per week, of 168 hours total in a week.


----------



## JoeB131 (Sep 10, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> > The2ndAmendment said:
> ...



But here's the point.  

Frankly, it doesn't take any special skill to work in a Catering Hall.   So obviously, your employer can cut your hours, and if you leave, they can just find some other college kid who will work for beer money.  

Do you kind of see the stupidity of making employers responsible for health care now?


----------



## Pheonixops (Sep 10, 2013)

Vox said:


> Pheonixops said:
> 
> 
> > Google said:
> ...



Why would they start it this year, when it allegedly isn't going into effect until 2015? 

Not a few, politicians running for office promise the people one thing and then don't come through with it or "do a 180'" on certain issues. Is it the fault of the people who believed them, or is it the fault of the politicians who mislead them?


----------



## Vox (Sep 10, 2013)

Pheonixops said:


> Why would they start it this year, when it allegedly isn't going into effect until 2015?
> 
> Not a few, politicians running for office promise the people one thing and then don't come through with it or "do a 180'" on certain issues. Is it the fault of the people who believed them, or is it the fault of the politicians who mislead them?



because the plan for obamacare to go in full effect was for January 1 2014 initially so they have adjusted the policy for the start of this year.

as somebody posted above - it takes time and resources to adjust the policies and once done they don't go in reverse mode.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 10, 2013)

Mac1958 said:


> .
> 
> Why in the world would anyone who supports Single Payer defend this disaster?  This isn't even in the same freakin' ZIP code as Single Payer.
> 
> ...



You are smarter than this. You should be able to grasp nuance. I prefer single payer....but this is what was "offered"

It is a step. It is an attempt to improve the situation. It still gives too much to insurance companies.....but it seeks to hold them accountable and make it so bankruptcy is not the end result of a serious illness or accident. It is a positive move forward and as much as the fucktards in the GOP would ever CONSIDER giving in to. 

Shit.....it was not written by Democrats. You know it. Disingenuous bullshit. 

How disappointing you have turned out to be. A fence sitter who jumped off on the side of stupid because you are guilty about your honest feelings. So disgusted with yourself that you have become hypersensitive to criticism. Go ahead...put me back on ignore before your feelings get hurt too much. 

Stick to whining about the imaginary PC monster.


----------



## Pheonixops (Sep 10, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> Pheonixops said:
> 
> 
> > If this whole thing (Obamacare) allegedly (I saw another poster state this) takes place in 2015, why are employers choosing to cut their employees hours now, instead of making it effective in 2015?
> ...



Maybe, but two years earlier? How does the insurance mandate affect that two years (1.5) prior to when it takes effect?


----------



## Pheonixops (Sep 10, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > The2ndAmendment said:
> ...



How much are they going to lose by cutting back on "parties and business" vs. complying with Obamacare mandates? I think I saw you state that they hire "outside companies" to provide waiters? If so, maybe you and the veteran staff can go down to the county offices in Riverhead and start your own company and let the Watermill Inn (a nice place, been to two weddings there, we always called the "Smithtown Bypass" plain old 347) hire your "veteran waiter company" to do the work for the originals hours you were working? That would sound like a "win, win" to me, they aren't burdened with employees, you would have to maintain an office where you kept your "waiter supplies, etc., and deal with getting or not getting health insurance on your own.


----------



## Pheonixops (Sep 10, 2013)

Vox said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> > Vox said:
> ...



The way they are handling that "threat" now is by cutting employees' hours, so they don't have to provide them insurance. I understand that; but why would they make their employees suffer two years prior them them being affected by the mandate? Why couldn't they say; "As of January 1, 2015 all employees hours will be cut." , and make it effective January 1, 2015?


----------



## Jarlaxle (Sep 10, 2013)

PixieStix said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> > The OP's making eleven bucks an hour just on tips, on top of his wage, and he's crying poverty???
> ...



The word you are looking for is "sociopath".


----------



## daws101 (Sep 10, 2013)

24 hours of non stop bitching by the op..not much time for job hunting.


----------



## Pheonixops (Sep 10, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...



Well with this particular situation, it seems that they are "preparing for it" by simply cutting their employees' hours. That doesn't take a whole lot of "preparation" when they can let the employees know that the cut in hours will be effective on 1/1/2015. That way EVERYONE can prepare for it and not lose their lifestyles NOW. They also risk losing employees when they do it now because they are put into a situation that the Op says he is in now. So no it's NOT good "business sense" to cut their hours now.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 10, 2013)

TK...have you ever run a business. It sure sounds like you have some experience. 

25 years old.....failure to keep a job since age 20.  That business must have been a lemonade stand. Maybe GirlScout cookies?


----------



## Pheonixops (Sep 10, 2013)

asterism said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...



Not leaving out the fact that it's 2013 now, two years before 2015. I also thought this was about "Obamacare" and the mandates being the reason for cutting hours? Just say they are going with the "previous year" , why would they make the cuts effective 1/1/2014? Wouldn't they want to get as much business in as possible before they have to cut the staff's hours?


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 10, 2013)

My 17 year old daughter will graduate HS withe her AA in May.  She just told me that she wants to take two years off from school so she can go to New York to work on Hillary's campaign.  Should I advise her to look into catering jobs up there. It looks like there will be some hours to fill.

Speaking of which....2A could do TK a solid and recommend him for a 30 hour gig at his place.


----------



## daws101 (Sep 10, 2013)

what type of businesses are cutting hours?
trying to spot a trend.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 10, 2013)

daws101 said:


> what type of businesses are cutting hours?
> trying to spot a trend.



Any business with more employees than they need to meet demand. Especially if the employees are "conservative", it seems.


----------



## Vox (Sep 10, 2013)

Pheonixops said:


> Vox said:
> 
> 
> > NYcarbineer said:
> ...



I have just explained it to you - the change was made a YEAR prior - at the end of 2012 nobody knew the effective year was going to be moved to 2015 - so the effective date was set up to be 1/1/13 for the policies setting up on /1/14.

the change came in the middle of 2013 when the hours have already been cut - nobody is going to be reversing it for 12-16 months - business plans are made AHEAD and so it stays.

you can not blame business for government stupidity


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 10, 2013)

Vox said:


> Pheonixops said:
> 
> 
> > Vox said:
> ...



Bullshit.


----------



## Pheonixops (Sep 10, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> asterism said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...



All he actually did, was provide factual information and then receive a personal attack afterward.


----------



## Jarlaxle (Sep 10, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > You work?    where?  You spend so much time posting there is obviously something wrong with you and your story
> ...



I have never seen a caterer work any other way!  One of the helpers at work was a caterer...he would work basically 10am-2am Friday & Saturday, usually about 9am to 10pm Sunday.  Rest of the week...he usually did 6 hours on Thursday setting up, that's about it.


----------



## Dot Com (Sep 10, 2013)

sell some of your guns asswipe.


----------



## Vox (Sep 10, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Vox said:
> 
> 
> > Pheonixops said:
> ...



liar, get lost


----------



## The2ndAmendment (Sep 10, 2013)

Dot Com said:


> sell some of your guns asswipe.



Over my dead body.

I'd rather be homeless and fully armed in the mountains until I die of a tooth infection.

Is that the Libtard plan? Make every poor, then pass "Gun Sellback" programs and disarm them, before they pull a French Revolution on you?


----------



## Vox (Sep 10, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> Dot Com said:
> 
> 
> > sell some of your guns asswipe.
> ...



oh, the ones here are pissing in their pants, they are not going to be the ones to " pull the revolution"


----------



## Hoffstra (Sep 10, 2013)

Obama "ruined your life"??

I thought Conservatives were all about personal responsibility.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 10, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> Dot Com said:
> 
> 
> > sell some of your guns asswipe.
> ...



Shit! You figured it out! Damn. Now how are we gonna get our chicken breast or whitefish at our gay weddings?!


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 10, 2013)

Vox said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > Dot Com said:
> ...



But you guys are. From right there behind those keyboards.


----------



## thereisnospoon (Sep 10, 2013)

daws101 said:


> what type of businesses are cutting hours?
> trying to spot a trend.


Mostly retail, restaurant and hospitality. Based on reports I have read.


----------



## Pheonixops (Sep 10, 2013)

asterism said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Your company is fucking you because they are too cheap to provide basic health insurance
> ...



What's the amount of the penalty the employer would have to pay if they don't provide health insurance for their employees?


----------



## Vox (Sep 10, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Vox said:
> 
> 
> > The2ndAmendment said:
> ...



we are going to pull the revolution? maybe, not sure that the revolutionary situation is ready 

but it does not change the situation and all the libtards are pissing in their pants even on a thought of one


----------



## Hoffstra (Sep 10, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> Over my dead body.
> 
> I'd rather be homeless and fully armed in the mountains until I die of a tooth infection.
> 
> Is that the Libtard plan? Make every poor, then pass "Gun Sellback" programs and disarm them, before they pull a French Revolution on you?



you're gonna carry 10 rifles into the Catskills?

one man needs one gun.  Ok, maybe one rifle and one shotgun.

with that you can hunt for life and protect yourself.


----------



## Vox (Sep 10, 2013)

thereisnospoon said:


> daws101 said:
> 
> 
> > what type of businesses are cutting hours?
> ...



the one I was talking about is neither.


----------



## The2ndAmendment (Sep 10, 2013)

Hoffstra said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > Over my dead body.
> ...



You might have a point.

I could sell the semi autos and buy enough 7 birdshot and 00 buckshot (shotgun) to last until 2050


----------



## Vox (Sep 10, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> Hoffstra said:
> 
> 
> > The2ndAmendment said:
> ...



no, don't do that.

it is a great investment.

You are not starving


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 10, 2013)

Vox said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > Vox said:
> ...



You have been asked TWICE now to tell us how much the penalty is for employers who ignore the mandate. But you won't because you can't handle being mocked. 

Why would anyone be afraid of you starting a revolution.  Liberals are always ready for a righteous fight. Bet on it.


----------



## thereisnospoon (Sep 10, 2013)

Pheonixops said:


> Vox said:
> 
> 
> > Pheonixops said:
> ...



For the same reasons why when a gas station is told upon the next delivery, the price will be "X", they immediately raise the price on the gas they currently have in inventory. It's called preparing for increased costs. 
Obamacare will dramatically increase the cost of doing business. And as any smart business owner will do, he will protect his business in an appropriate manner.


----------



## Dot Com (Sep 10, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> Dot Com said:
> 
> 
> > sell some of your guns asswipe.
> ...



you are a retard. Why don't you work out so you don't need to have 15 guns?  Judging by the pics on your FB link you provided, you look like GZ weight-wise.


----------



## The2ndAmendment (Sep 10, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Why would anyone be afraid of you starting a revolution.  Liberals are always ready for a righteous fight. Bet on it.



What will Liberals fight with? They've disarmed themselves.


----------



## Vox (Sep 10, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Vox said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



I was not asked EVEN ONCE.

why should I answer the question not directed at me?

libtards are shitting in their pants even on a thought of the revolution  - even in the next door thread.

you are  all very brave behind the keyboard.

in the reality every one of you is extremely worried not to loose your foodstamps and 55 inch plasma TV


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 10, 2013)

thereisnospoon said:


> Pheonixops said:
> 
> 
> > Vox said:
> ...



Smart business owners hire enough staff to handle their business. They don't turn away business to make a political point.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 10, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > Why would anyone be afraid of you starting a revolution.  Liberals are always ready for a righteous fight. Bet on it.
> ...



You think so, huh?


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 10, 2013)

Vox said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > Vox said:
> ...



Maybe that was Asterism......scuze me.

You think all liberals are on food stamps, do ya?


----------



## Dot Com (Sep 10, 2013)

Hoffstra said:


> Obama "ruined your life"??
> 
> I thought Conservatives were all about personal responsibility.



I also thought they were "boot-strappers"


----------



## Vox (Sep 10, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Vox said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



most are 

otherwise there is no reason why should they be so attached to this failure 

=========
usually when somebody is referring to the "revolutionary situation" it is described as when the "lowes" CAN NOT and the "ups"DON'T WANT to live the previous way.

since I highly suspect the "ups" don't post on the USMB boards, the "in the midst" are usually the ones who try to avoid the revolution as much as possible, the drive of the latter  rests on the "lows". Those are not in a situation where they are ready to get their fat butts off the coach in front of their 55 inch plasma TV while chewing popcorn and drinking soda payed for by food stamps 
personally I think most posters here are  "in the midst". The ones jumping to fight "for the right cause" SHOULD be the "lows" 

revolutions are planned by idealists, performed by fanatics and used by scoundrels.

or 

&#8220;In revolutions authority remains with the greatest scoundrels.&#8221;Georges Jacques Danton


----------



## thereisnospoon (Sep 10, 2013)

Pheonixops said:


> asterism said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


8% of the gross wages for each employee not covered by an employer plan....It's cheaper to NOT provide coverage.
The Obamacare mandate has already started a shift from full time employment to part time and temporary or contract worker employment.


----------



## thereisnospoon (Sep 10, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> thereisnospoon said:
> 
> 
> > Pheonixops said:
> ...


Who said anything about turning away business?
Apparently employers cutting their workers hours back have enough staff to cover the workload.


----------



## daws101 (Sep 10, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> Dot Com said:
> 
> 
> > sell some of your guns asswipe.
> ...


wow another romantic fantasy ..
1.have you ever been camping?
2.have you ever been camping in the wilderness.?
3. can you make and bank a fire?
4. can you tell the difference between poison oak and poison ivy.
5. can you purify water?
6. can  you kill,  gut ,skin  cook wild game.?
7. how far from water do you dig a latrine? 
8. can you build a shelter?


----------



## thereisnospoon (Sep 10, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



Yep...if you own a gun and call yourself a liberal, you are a hypocrite.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 10, 2013)

It is $2000.


----------



## Pheonixops (Sep 10, 2013)

Mr Clean said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



It is a good way to make money and go to SUNY Stony Brook at the same time. It's was a nice little area, it was my "stomping grounds" years ago.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 10, 2013)

thereisnospoon said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > thereisnospoon said:
> ...



The OP.  Please pay attention.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 10, 2013)

thereisnospoon said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > The2ndAmendment said:
> ...



That is ridiculous.


----------



## thereisnospoon (Sep 10, 2013)

daws101 said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > Dot Com said:
> ...



Pretty simple shit. What's your point?
Do you know what plants you can safely eat?
And it's not how far from the water source that matters. It's gravity.
This is why when a home is built with it's solid waste going to a septic tank with a leach field the drainage must be below and away from ground water/springs or bodies of water.
Do you believe you are the smartest person in the room?
DO you know how to 'make' water?
Come on dude....Cut the crap....
I really get a kick out those who think everyone else is incompetent.


----------



## daws101 (Sep 10, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > Why would anyone be afraid of you starting a revolution.  Liberals are always ready for a righteous fight. Bet on it.
> ...


false libs like guns just as much as repubs ..the difference is they have figured out you can only shoot one at a time accurately...


----------



## daws101 (Sep 10, 2013)

Vox said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > Vox said:
> ...


bullshit..that another repub fantasy....my wife works for DPSS.(food stamps) the numbers are higher for repubs and illegals because they are in general less educated than democrats.


----------



## daws101 (Sep 10, 2013)

thereisnospoon said:


> daws101 said:
> 
> 
> > The2ndAmendment said:
> ...


I really get a kick out of ass hats that feel the need to announce they are not incompetent...
and yes I can make water ..plastic wrap works best...
I can also make fire. 
my point which you went the long way around to avoid or just did not get.   is  people have these romantic notions about how they will make a last stand or  hide away in the woods.
when most people who make that claim don't know the first thing about it.


----------



## Vox (Sep 10, 2013)

daws101 said:


> Vox said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



keep lying 

illegals are not eligible for food stamps


----------



## daws101 (Sep 10, 2013)

Vox said:


> daws101 said:
> 
> 
> > Vox said:
> ...


actually they are, if they have a child in this country.. now's the time you either do the smart thing and shut the fuck up or keep taLKING OUT YOUR ASS...and showcase your idiocy!


----------



## The2ndAmendment (Sep 10, 2013)

daws101 said:


> repubs and illegals because they are in general less educated than democrats.



Link.

Also bear in mind that ivory tower Progressives set the education standards.

It seems (medical) doctors usually talk and act like Conservatives.

Car mechanics are always conservatives.

Businessman are almost always conservative.

Carpenters are almost always conservatives.

Plumbers are almost always conservatives.

Electricians are almost always conservatives.

Road/Highway/bridge construction workers, engineers, architects are almost always conservative.

Farmers are almost always conservative.

I just named the most important professions to modern civilization, and anyone's real life experience will tell you these guys are always conservative. You can say whatever you want to the contrary on the internet, people know in real life that it's true.

Illegals do some of the worst jobs.

And how do you measure "smart" and "intelligent."

I'm sure you've never worked as a landscaper (like many illegals do), and you'd have no idea how to fucking do it (efficiently at the least).

*
EVERYONE is IMPORTANT.

EVERYONE has their own Talent.

EVERY PERSON has a different set of knowledge.*

How would you ivory tower intellectuals survive if no one grew your food? If no one transported that food? If no one ran the business that transported the food? If there were no vets and pharma agents to keep livestock disease free?

How would you ivory tower intellectuals live comfortably without electricity, if no factory workers produced copper wire, batteries, fuses, and circuits? If no engineers designed light bulbs, washing machines, and refrigerators? If no construction workers and architects built power facilities and power lines?

How would the economy function is no one built the highways, and the roads, railroads? And no one drove the trucks or conducted the trains?

I measure intelligence by someone's unique ability to add input into a society, no matter what that input is.

You say anyone can be a waiter? Sure, you're right, but then why does the Veteran waiter staff at my job (and many others) outperform the entry level waiter by triple the amount of people/tables to serve during the same time?

I say anyone can sit down and press keys on a piano, but it takes a lot of practice to actually play a song.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 10, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> daws101 said:
> 
> 
> > repubs and illegals because they are in general less educated than democrats.
> ...



Your age is showing.


----------



## The2ndAmendment (Sep 10, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Illegals do some of the worst jobs.
> 
> And how do you measure "smart" and "intelligent."
> 
> I'm sure you've never worked as a landscaper (like many illegals do), and you'd have no idea how to fucking do it (efficiently at the least).



Your age is showing.[/QUOTE]

You know how to landscape?

You know how to construct roads?

You know how to lay a roof?


----------



## Bfgrn (Sep 10, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> I just received a letter from my job stating that no one will be working more than 30 hours a week.
> 
> I normally worked 48-52 hours per week generating 10 hours of regular play, and 8-12 hours of overtime time. Each hour I work averages an ADDITIONAL $ 11.25 in tips.
> 
> ...



Let's do some MORE math here...

You came on this board in February of this year. That was 7 months ago or approx. 210 days. Since you came on this board, you have created 4,256 posts. When I look at the time stamps on your posts, you have almost every hour of the day covered.

YET...you _claim_ to be working 48-52 hours per week and attending two classes at Stony Brook University.

You came on this board and within the first few days you proved to be a lair. 

NOW, we have PROOF you are a lying sack of shit.


----------



## The2ndAmendment (Sep 10, 2013)

Bfgrn said:


> you _claim_ to be working 48-52 hours per week and attending two classes at Stony Brook University.
> 
> You came on this board and within the first few days you proved to be a lair.
> 
> NOW, we have PROOF you are a lying sack of shit.



Been through this already, read the thread, an take a GIANT neg.



LoneLaugher said:


> Did you just "raze me to the ground"?
> 
> You silly boy. You speak of my life experience.....as if you come close.
> 
> ...



You and  [MENTION=15512]Dante[/MENTION] have been razed to the ground.

I provided all the information proving my existence as Edward Solomon and divulged and revealed lots of personal information.

Your smear attack is done.

Your nothing but propaganda filth.

*LIBTARD SMEAR ATTACK ANNIHILATED*​
Politics if my life faggot. Here I am talking at a meeting, and here I am on the radio:

THIS IS MY "HOBBY"

I even say that I'm waiter on the national radio, listen at 2:35


Here I am at 20:00


here's the link to my job:

https://www.facebook.com/watermillcaterers

Here's my facebook:

https://www.facebook.com/solomonscourge


*LIBTARD SMEAR ATTACK ANNIHILATED*​


LoneLaugher said:


> Hold on a sec, please.
> 
> If you are losing 24K by having your hours cut from 52 to 30 ( 22 hours ).....how is it possible that you only make 36K in total? You only make 12K for the first 30 hours? You should be making over 50K.
> 
> Your nose must be a foot long by now.



I said 36,000+

The last tow years I made above 40k.

30hoursx (10.50 + 11.25) = 652

652*4weeks*12months=31,320

That above assumes that I never take a vacation, since I take two 2-week vacations (unpaid), and I leave the Catering hall each semester during final seasons, I lose 3 months total. so 75% of 31,320 is 23,490

So now I'll be making 23,490 BEFORE taxes.

The extra 20 hours with the overtime generated an additional 23,640

However, that to is subject to the 75% smack so that's actually 17,730

32,640 + 17,730 = 41,200  BEFORE TAXES.

You Libtards make me sick.

This is why central planning by ivory tower Libtards always fails.

*YOU DO NOT KNOW ENOUGH INFORMATION ABOUT EVEN A SINGLE PERSON TO MAKE CHOICES FOR THEM.*

Let this thread embarrass you Central Planners for the rest of your lives.


----------



## Pheonixops (Sep 10, 2013)

Vox said:


> Pheonixops said:
> 
> 
> > Why would they start it this year, when it allegedly isn't going into effect until 2015?
> ...



This is a catering hall with waiters, I would think that schedules get adjusted anyway according to the time of the year and season.


----------



## The2ndAmendment (Sep 10, 2013)

Pheonixops said:


> Vox said:
> 
> 
> > Pheonixops said:
> ...



They do, you only get less than 40 hours per week AFTER Holidays though. Weddings are a dime a dozen.


----------



## Bfgrn (Sep 10, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > you _claim_ to be working 48-52 hours per week and attending two classes at Stony Brook University.
> ...



You have a deep psychosis, and you are having a meltdown. Get help...


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 10, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > Illegals do some of the worst jobs.
> ...



You know how to landscape?

You know how to construct roads?

You know how to lay a roof?[/QUOTE]

Hmm. 

Yes. 
No. 
Yes. 

Let me ask you a simple question.  You have 30 seconds to answer. 

Will a saw blade with 100 teeth cut faster or slower than a saw blade with 24 teeth and why?

Tick....tick...tick....


----------



## Pheonixops (Sep 10, 2013)

Vox said:


> Pheonixops said:
> 
> 
> > Vox said:
> ...



LOL, I'm not blaming anybody for anything.  You said " at the end of 2012 nobody knew the effective year was going to be moved to 2015 - so the effective date was set up to be *1/1/13* for the policies setting up on /1/14. " , if so why are they doing it on "9/13/2013", instead of 1/1/14 even after it is known to now take effect on 1/1/2015?


----------



## The2ndAmendment (Sep 10, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Will a saw blade with 100 teeth cut faster or slower than a saw blade with 24 teeth and why?
> 
> Tick....tick...tick....



Assuming the same diameter for the [circular?] blade, the 24 teeth which are much taller in height and longer at the base along the circumference of the disc,  will cut through faster.

And quite simply, each tooth requires equally more energy for it to cut effectively, also the more numerous teeth are smaller, if they were the same height, they'd crack off.

Some saws are measured in horsepower, and some blades recommend how much horsepower per tooth.


----------



## Pheonixops (Sep 10, 2013)

thereisnospoon said:


> Pheonixops said:
> 
> 
> > Vox said:
> ...



Wouldn't said employer get as much business as they can before the mandates take effect in 2015? If I knew that there was a possible regulation that could adversely affect my business as I am running it now, I would make sure that I gave enough time to myself and my employees to prosper right up to the date that the regulation would affect my business. I certainly wouldn't "turtle up" and shrink my business when I had over a year and possibly more before that regulation took effect. That's a sure sign of a poor business model!


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 10, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > Will a saw blade with 100 teeth cut faster or slower than a saw blade with 24 teeth and why?
> ...



That is the right answer....but not the right reason. The same holds true for linear blades. 

Do you want to know the reason? Or...would you like to take another stab at it?


----------



## The2ndAmendment (Sep 10, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



I gave an answer above, I don't know if its correct, I don't' specialize in blade construction and design.


----------



## The2ndAmendment (Sep 10, 2013)

Pheonixops said:


> Wouldn't said employer get as much business as they can before the mandates take effect in 2015? If I knew that there was a possible regulation that could adversely affect my business as I am running it now, I would make sure that I gave enough time to myself and my employees to prosper right up to the date that the regulation would affect my business. I certainly wouldn't "turtle up" and shrink my business when I had over a year and possibly more before that regulation took effect. That's a sure sign of a poor business model!



Ask all the other employers too

AFL-CIO President Trumka: Employers Cutting Workers to 29 1/2 Hours to Avoid ObamaCare | NewsBusters



> Part-time math professor Tracey Sullivan said she will lose half her income because of the cuts.
> 
> "I never thought it would impact me directly,&#8221; said Sullivan. &#8220;I was stunned when I got the email...I love teaching at St. Pete College but that is a significant cut."
> 
> Many businesses are reluctant to talk about cutting hours for fear the public will view them as stingy or uncaring about their workers. But Goodridge said that many small businesses have very small profit margins and that while he already provides health insurance to senior employees, offering health insurance to many more workers would require him to pass a significant price increase on to his customers.



http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_...re-has-forced-them-to-cut-employee-hours?lite


----------



## Vox (Sep 10, 2013)

Pheonixops said:


> Vox said:
> 
> 
> > Pheonixops said:
> ...



I was not talking about OP type of business, I was talking about ancillary stuff where I work 
They have had the hours cut starting Jan 1 this year.

and it is not about the schedule, it is called projected business expenses and it is planned way ahead.


----------



## Pheonixops (Sep 10, 2013)

thereisnospoon said:


> Pheonixops said:
> 
> 
> > asterism said:
> ...



Thanks for your answer, I think that the OP stated that his pre-tip base salary was 34k, that penalty would be about $2,720.00, which would be $226.00 per month per employee, and $56 per week per employee. They couldn't find a way to work out that $56 per week with each employee they let keep full time hours? I mean $56 divided by two would come out to be $28 per week if the employer and employee split the difference.


----------



## Pheonixops (Sep 10, 2013)

thereisnospoon said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > The2ndAmendment said:
> ...



There are plenty of Liberals (including myself) who believe in supporting the Bill of Rights. I believe that once a person reaches the age of majority, they should be able to purchase a firearm as easily they would buy any other tool from Home Depot.


----------



## Vox (Sep 10, 2013)

Pheonixops said:


> Vox said:
> 
> 
> > Pheonixops said:
> ...



they are not doing it  9/13/13 - it took effect 1/1/2013 and stays there.

I am not talking about OP business, I have mentioned in a thread before that our ancillary staff had their hours cut to the part-time mode. They are employed by not a very big business which is not MY employer.
I was talking all the time about situation at my place


----------



## Vox (Sep 10, 2013)

Pheonixops said:


> thereisnospoon said:
> 
> 
> > Pheonixops said:
> ...



why do you assume the employer looses business? he does not. with unemployment so high there is no shortage of people. he just hires more part-timers.


----------



## asterism (Sep 10, 2013)

Bfgrn said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > I just received a letter from my job stating that no one will be working more than 30 hours a week.
> ...



Break this down for me.

How is it not possible for his claims to be true?


----------



## asterism (Sep 10, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...





> Hmm.
> 
> Yes.
> No.
> ...



Disingenuous question.

Stainless steel or diamond coated?  Rip or finishing?


----------



## asterism (Sep 10, 2013)

Pheonixops said:


> thereisnospoon said:
> 
> 
> > Pheonixops said:
> ...



Huh?

It's a $226 per month penalty, not 8% for the health plan.

My company is not subject to benefits laws, we're too small.  We tried to provide for our people anyway, and found that being a source of non-cash benefits was way more expensive than just paying above market.  It's especially good for the ones that are married and covered under their spouse's plan.  It's a tradeoff though, we have been VERY flexible for single moms and that's more important than more money in the paycheck.


----------



## asterism (Sep 10, 2013)

Pheonixops said:


> thereisnospoon said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



Yup.


----------



## asterism (Sep 10, 2013)

Vox said:


> Pheonixops said:
> 
> 
> > thereisnospoon said:
> ...



Very true.

Regardless of the long term benefits expected, this was the wrong time to roll this program out.  If it had to be passed, implementation should have been delayed until the economy recovered.  A 5 year delay without any favoritism in exemptions would have allowed the business environment to focus on expansion first.

I'm not a conspiracy nut, but it almost looks like this program was designed to fail.


----------



## Pheonixops (Sep 10, 2013)

This may be a good business model for 2A.



Pheonixops said:


> How much are they going to lose by cutting back on "parties and business" vs. complying with Obamacare mandates? _I think I saw you state that they hire "outside companies" to provide waiters? If so, maybe you and the veteran staff can go down to the county offices in Riverhead and start your own company and let the Watermill Inn (a nice place, been to two weddings there, we always called the "Smithtown Bypass" plain old 347) hire your "veteran waiter company" to do the work for the originals hours you were working?_ That would sound like a "win, win" to me, they aren't burdened with employees, you would have to maintain an office where you kept your "waiter supplies, etc., and deal with getting or not getting health insurance on your own.


----------



## Vox (Sep 10, 2013)

asterism said:


> I'm not a conspiracy nut, but it almost looks like this program was designed to fail.



It is not a conspiracy - the aim is a single-payer system, so this crap HAS to fail.


----------



## asterism (Sep 10, 2013)

Pheonixops said:


> This may be a good business model for 2A.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's not a bad idea.

But, this is New York.  There's a big barrier to entry into any market, so many social mazes.

A good idea regardless.


----------



## The2ndAmendment (Sep 10, 2013)

Vox said:


> Pheonixops said:
> 
> 
> > thereisnospoon said:
> ...



There will be more business, but in the form of sweet 16's and other cheap parties, where you don't' need experienced staff and heavy management, and yes, it will be done by part timers.

The catering hall still loses money in the end though.


----------



## asterism (Sep 10, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> Vox said:
> 
> 
> > Pheonixops said:
> ...



You seem smarter and more motivated that your peers.  Turn this negative bullshit situation into a positive.  Hire the other "part-timers" trying to make up their hours.


----------



## Bfgrn (Sep 11, 2013)

asterism said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > The2ndAmendment said:
> ...



It is not possible, unless she is creating posts on the employer's time. Last time I checked, there is 24 hours in a day.


----------



## asterism (Sep 11, 2013)

Bfgrn said:


> asterism said:
> 
> 
> > Bfgrn said:
> ...



How much time do you think it takes to post on a message board?


----------



## Bfgrn (Sep 11, 2013)

asterism said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > asterism said:
> ...



Is it reasonable to assume that someone who claims to work 48-52 hours per week and attending two classes at Stony Brook University would have consistent time gaps in her time stamps?


----------



## Vox (Sep 11, 2013)

Bfgrn said:


> asterism said:
> 
> 
> > Bfgrn said:
> ...



Yes it is. If you an old fart and posting a message takes YOU half an hour that is not the same time frame for everybody else, especially young electronic savvy generation. Don't measure everything through your skills


----------



## asterism (Sep 11, 2013)

Bfgrn said:


> asterism said:
> 
> 
> > Bfgrn said:
> ...



Yes.

How much does he post on the weekends?


----------



## Bfgrn (Sep 11, 2013)

Vox said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > asterism said:
> ...



SO, you would have no problem with her posting while being paid by her employer?

HERE is an example of what she posts. It is very time intensive to do all the editing and cherry picking.

Hey, I was born, but it was not yesterday. 2nd amend. is a fucking liar. She came on the board claiming she was a progressive, and not just a run of the mill progressive, a staunch progressive...and she has proven that was a lie, she is as far right as you can get.

If a few morons want to believe her, go for it pea brain.


----------



## Snookie (Sep 11, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> I just received a letter from my job stating that no one will be working more than 30 hours a week.
> 
> I normally worked 48-52 hours per week generating 10 hours of regular play, and 8-12 hours of overtime time. Each hour I work averages an ADDITIONAL $ 11.25 in tips.
> 
> ...



That's life.


----------



## Snookie (Sep 11, 2013)

Bfgrn said:


> Vox said:
> 
> 
> > Bfgrn said:
> ...



She is a Poe [reference Urban Dictionary, September 11: Premature Articulation ] 





> > twerk
> > molly
> > swag
> > pomosexuality
> ...


----------



## The2ndAmendment (Sep 11, 2013)

Bfgrn said:


> Vox said:
> 
> 
> > Bfgrn said:
> ...


    [MENTION=19018]Bfgrn[/MENTION]
Why do you keep calling me a "she".

My identity, with a  video of me speaking at Save Long Island was posted three times in this thread.

There's also a radio segment of myself with Alex Jones, where I talk about how I'm waiter for at least 30 seconds. I also claimed I voted for Obama in 2008 and 2012 during that radio interview, yes I was once Progressive.

Also, you still haven't' addressed any of the quotes in that thread you linked, you are a Leviathan.


*LIBTARD SMEAR ATTACK ANNIHILATED*​
Politics if my life faggot. Here I am talking at a meeting, and here I am on the radio:

THIS IS MY "HOBBY"

I even say that I'm waiter on the national radio, listen at 2:35


Here I am at 20:00


here's the link to my job:

https://www.facebook.com/watermillcaterers

Here's my facebook:

https://www.facebook.com/solomonscourge


*LIBTARD SMEAR ATTACK ANNIHILATED*​[/QUOTE]


----------



## Pheonixops (Sep 11, 2013)

asterism said:


> Pheonixops said:
> 
> 
> > This may be a good business model for 2A.
> ...



Thank you, I grew up there and started my own business there. I went to SUNY Stony Brook as well. 

His first "entry into the market" should be with his current employer, the Watermill Inn. Then he can try to get other customers, his biggest obstacle in my opinion, would be to make sure that fine line that separates independent contractor from employee status. If this is a trend (the OP's situation) , there may be other restauranteurs looking to have the same options that he would provide to the Water Mill Inn. 

Maybe "temp agencies" may be the new business boom if larger employers are going to do the same thing as what the OP's employer is doing.


----------



## daws101 (Sep 11, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> daws101 said:
> 
> 
> > repubs and illegals because they are in general less educated than democrats.
> ...


link to what? or look it up yourself.
btw the sermon you just posted is so full of inaccuracies it's meaningless.


----------



## daws101 (Sep 11, 2013)

Bfgrn said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > Bfgrn said:
> ...


that's a switch... thought you'd be defending him!


----------



## Jarlaxle (Sep 11, 2013)

asterism said:


> Pheonixops said:
> 
> 
> > This may be a good business model for 2A.
> ...



Incorporate in Pennsylvania or Delaware, maybe?


----------



## Bfgrn (Sep 12, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > Vox said:
> ...



Yea, you voted for the head of Al Qaeda.

Where *IT* says "Obama runs Al Qaeda" - http://www.usmessageboard.com/7808209-post106.html

I apologize for calling you a 'she'. That is an insult to every woman.

I edited my response above above.


----------



## DigitalDrifter (Sep 12, 2013)

Next Tuesday I get to find out the future of my healthcare plan, as my company announces changes due to Obamacare. We will be meeting in a companywide setting. I'm going to make sure and sit next to a Dim and be ready to grab them by the throat when the changes are announced.


----------



## RKMBrown (Sep 12, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> I just received a letter from my job stating that no one will be working more than 30 hours a week.
> 
> I normally worked 48-52 hours per week generating 10 hours of regular play, and 8-12 hours of overtime time. Each hour I work averages an ADDITIONAL $ 11.25 in tips.
> 
> ...


Just do what everyone else does and file for disability.  You can claim stress from Obamacare has forced you to be disabled and now you can't work full time anymore.


----------



## RKMBrown (Sep 12, 2013)

Bfgrn said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > I just received a letter from my job stating that no one will be working more than 30 hours a week.
> ...



WOW what a monumental turd you are.  Guy gets hurt by your anointed one's turd care and your response is to call him a lying sack.  You don't deserve to have a liberty bell as your avatar.  It should be the sickle and pick axe.


----------



## Bfgrn (Sep 12, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > The2ndAmendment said:
> ...



No turd brain, you have it ass backwards. Anyone with an adult brain could figure out IT is a lying sack of shit. The math and the time stamps don't add up to someone who _claims_ to be working 48-52 hours per week and attending two classes at Stony Brook University. UNLESS you sanction posting on message boards on company time.  

BUT, anyone who attacks the President of the United States, even a lying sack of shit with a phony story is a saint in your eyes.


----------



## Bfgrn (Sep 12, 2013)

Pauli007001 said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



That's because you only need one hand free to flip burgers. In any professional setting you are paid to focus on your job, not posting whacky conspiracy theories and long, very time intensive posts due to editing and cherry picking.


----------



## Snookie (Sep 12, 2013)

DigitalDrifter said:


> Next Tuesday I get to find out the future of my healthcare plan, as my company announces changes due to Obamacare. We will be meeting in a companywide setting. I'm going to make sure and sit next to a Dim and be ready to grab them by the throat when the changes are announced.



There is no reason to have such a bad attitude to start with.

Whatever happened to compromise?


----------



## Snookie (Sep 12, 2013)

Pauli007001 said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



Traitor, you.  You are only helping our enemies by attacking our president.

Bush is no longer president so it's a moot point.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

Now behave yourself, please.


----------



## Snookie (Sep 12, 2013)

Pauli007001 said:


> Snookie said:
> 
> 
> > DigitalDrifter said:
> ...



Just like all the republicans sabotaging our country for their own political purposes.


----------



## Snookie (Sep 12, 2013)

Pauli007001 said:


> Snookie said:
> 
> 
> > Pauli007001 said:
> ...



I challenge you to show one post where I attacked Bush when he was president.

I don't live in the past like you conservatives do.  I live in the present with great hopes for the future of our great country which you seem to hate.


----------



## Snookie (Sep 12, 2013)

Pauli007001 said:


> Snookie said:
> 
> 
> > Pauli007001 said:
> ...


You lie.


----------



## Snookie (Sep 12, 2013)

Pauli007001 said:


> Snookie said:
> 
> 
> > Pauli007001 said:
> ...



As a veteran I already have laid my life on the line.

You sure do hate freedom of speech unless it suits your evil purposes to destroy our country from within.


----------



## Snookie (Sep 12, 2013)

Pauli007001 said:


> Snookie said:
> 
> 
> > Pauli007001 said:
> ...



link?  proof?  Quote?


----------



## Bfgrn (Sep 12, 2013)

Pauli007001 said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > Pauli007001 said:
> ...



Another lying sack of shit. NO ONE who owned a company doing 'highly specialized, extremely difficult and particularly dangerous' work would allow worker's attention and focus to be diverted to trivial crap. And no bank or insurance company would back or insure a company that allowed those totally irresponsible practices.

You have been exposed...another poser.


----------



## Bfgrn (Sep 12, 2013)

Pauli007001 said:


> Snookie said:
> 
> 
> > Pauli007001 said:
> ...



Retard alert!
Retard alert!
Retard alert!


----------



## thanatos144 (Sep 12, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> I just received a letter from my job stating that no one will be working more than 30 hours a week.
> 
> I normally worked 48-52 hours per week generating 10 hours of regular play, and 8-12 hours of overtime time. Each hour I work averages an ADDITIONAL $ 11.25 in tips.
> 
> ...


I feel for you man. Hope you make it through.... As you can see by the progressives posts they take pride in your fall.


----------



## NoTeaPartyPleez (Sep 12, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> I just received a letter from my job stating that no one will be working more than 30 hours a week.
> 
> I normally worked 48-52 hours per week generating 10 hours of regular play, and 8-12 hours of overtime time. Each hour I work averages an ADDITIONAL $ 11.25 in tips.
> 
> ...



*You are experiencing what 15 million people endured when Wall Street crashed our economy in 2008 after Paulson gave them $750,000,000,000 taxpayer dollars and the housing bubble burst.  Those people were completely without work and have cobbled two part-time jobs together in order to survive.  Or at least many of them have. And they've been without the sham of health insurance, too.  Millions of others felt the ripple effect by losing almost half of what their house was worth therefore being hobbled from taking a new job after losing their employment in 2009 and 2010.

So suck it up, put on your Big Boy pants, apply for Obamacare and go get a second job and welcome to the real world, whiner.*


----------



## thanatos144 (Sep 12, 2013)

Pauli007001 said:


> Snookie said:
> 
> 
> > Pauli007001 said:
> ...



its a technicality they're trying to get you on he didn't say change he said fundamentally change


----------



## Immanuel (Sep 12, 2013)

Snookie said:


> Pauli007001 said:
> 
> 
> > Bfgrn said:
> ...



Those words quite often come from the guy that f'd everyone else over and now expects everyone else to play nice.  I think this is one of those cases. 

Immie


----------



## JoeB131 (Sep 12, 2013)

DigitalDrifter said:


> Next Tuesday I get to find out the future of my healthcare plan, as my company announces changes due to Obamacare. We will be meeting in a companywide setting. I'm going to make sure and sit next to a Dim and be ready to grab them by the throat when the changes are announced.



Funny thing.  We used to have these meetings every year BEFORE ObamaCare was announced.  

And every year, the insurance got more expensive and a little shittier than the year before.  

But please, Blame ObamaCare for what your company does.


----------



## thanatos144 (Sep 12, 2013)

JoeB131 said:


> DigitalDrifter said:
> 
> 
> > Next Tuesday I get to find out the future of my healthcare plan, as my company announces changes due to Obamacare. We will be meeting in a companywide setting. I'm going to make sure and sit next to a Dim and be ready to grab them by the throat when the changes are announced.
> ...



and every year you get more dumb and dishonest


----------



## daws101 (Sep 12, 2013)

thanatos144 said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > DigitalDrifter said:
> ...


I hear that a lot from the right..
but then again you guys wanted sarah palin....


----------



## thanatos144 (Sep 12, 2013)

daws101 said:


> thanatos144 said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...



we all know smart women who don't kill their babies scare you liberals


----------



## daws101 (Sep 12, 2013)

thanatos144 said:


> daws101 said:
> 
> 
> > thanatos144 said:
> ...


a fine example of wilful ignorance..


----------



## Kooshdakhaa (Sep 12, 2013)

JoeB131 said:


> DigitalDrifter said:
> 
> 
> > Next Tuesday I get to find out the future of my healthcare plan, as my company announces changes due to Obamacare. We will be meeting in a companywide setting. I'm going to make sure and sit next to a Dim and be ready to grab them by the throat when the changes are announced.
> ...



Yep, that's what has been happening at my company.  Our insurance rates have been going up and up and our coverage has been getting worse.  I have a $4000 deductible in order to be able to afford my portion of the premiums.  And all of this  was going on before Obamacare was even thought of.

And now people expect me to believe this is because of Obamacare.


----------



## JoeB131 (Sep 12, 2013)

thanatos144 said:


> daws101 said:
> 
> 
> > thanatos144 said:
> ...



No, ones who breed like Queen Termites even after they've already used up all the good genes kind of scare us. 

You know, 40ish women have no business still having babies.


----------



## thanatos144 (Sep 12, 2013)

JoeB131 said:


> thanatos144 said:
> 
> 
> > daws101 said:
> ...



that's a tolerant of the you pathetic piece of s***


----------



## EriktheRed (Sep 12, 2013)

thanatos144 said:


> daws101 said:
> 
> 
> > thanatos144 said:
> ...



"Smart"????


----------



## RKMBrown (Sep 12, 2013)

thanatos144 said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > DigitalDrifter said:
> ...



FYI: Coming from you, this is a meaningless statement.


----------



## RKMBrown (Sep 12, 2013)

EriktheRed said:


> thanatos144 said:
> 
> 
> > daws101 said:
> ...



Yeah, ok how about good looking women of character that have the ability to read a teleprompter?


----------



## JoeB131 (Sep 12, 2013)

thanatos144 said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > thanatos144 said:
> ...



No, it's fucking science.  

A woman in her 40's giving birth has a VASTLY higher chance of giving birth to a child with Down Syndrome or any other number of genetic diseases.  

A 20 year old woman has only 1 in 1667 chance of giving birth to a child with DS. 

At 42, that drops to 1 in 64.


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## kiwiman127 (Sep 12, 2013)

I've stated from Day 1 that was against Obamacare because of the mandate.
But to blame Obamacare for the increase in one's healthcare insurance is just plain ignorant.


----------



## JoeB131 (Sep 12, 2013)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkKPtUywY-8]If Jesus was a Conservative - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## JoeB131 (Sep 12, 2013)

Pauli007001 said:


> [
> 
> When it's part of an overall plan.
> It's no mistake that employers are dumping staff to avoid paying insane premiums.
> ...



Sorry, guy, $5,000 is not an "insane" premium.  It's more about greed and what they think they can get away with in a recession.  

Hence. SIngle payer, tax the fuck out of the wealthy to pay for it. Problem solved.  

Kind of done with Big Insurance, and so are most people.


----------



## WillowTree (Sep 12, 2013)

Mr Clean said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > francoHFW said:
> ...



nope, it's not, it's the fault of the shitty democrats who have bitched non stop about successful self sustaining people and how they must be punished. you shitty leeches have won. What makes me laugh is it's gonna take you down too.


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## Jarlaxle (Sep 12, 2013)

daws101 said:


> thanatos144 said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...



As opposed to Joe Biden?  HELL YES!


----------



## Jarlaxle (Sep 12, 2013)

JoeB131 said:


> Pauli007001 said:
> 
> 
> > [
> ...



Then move to Canada, pisshead.  Stop bitching and DO something about it!  Just ONCE in your life, actually do SOMETHING!


----------



## The2ndAmendment (Sep 12, 2013)

Pauli007001 said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > thanatos144 said:
> ...



Obviously JoeB131 is a eugenicist.


----------



## Bfgrn (Sep 12, 2013)

Pauli007001 said:


> NoTeaPartyPleez said:
> 
> 
> > The2ndAmendment said:
> ...



The CRA had NOTHING to do with it. That and all the rest of the right wing propaganda has been debunked. You are a MORON.


----------



## Bfgrn (Sep 12, 2013)

Pauli007001 said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > Pauli007001 said:
> ...



Right wing fairy tales.

Here is what we DO know:

1) The financial crisis was not caused by low and middle income families buying a home. 

2) It was not caused by dead beat poor people. 

3) Fannie and Freddie were not to cause.

4) The Community Investment Act was not the culprit either.

The crisis was caused by private lending, to mostly upper middle class and the wealthy. ONLY 6% of of all the higher-priced loans were extended by CRA-covered lenders to lower-income borrowers or neighborhoods in their CRA assessment areas. The majority of those foreclosed on were wealthy and upper middle class, plus a large segment of buyers who were wealthy home flippers looking for a fast buck. They strategically walked away from their mortgages, leaving people who bought homes to live in with lower values on their house and neighborhood.

AND, what really sucks for the right wing propaganda of lies, all the way back to the late '90's there was one very outspoken and vocal critic of predatory lending practices, they even held protests at companies like Wells Fargo and Lehman Brothers...ACORN


WSJ - Feds Kroszner: Dont Blame CRA

WSJ - Feds Kroszner: Dont Blame CRA - The Sequel

Reuters - UPDATE 2-Lending to poor didn't spur crisis 

Don't Blame the Community Reinvestment Act

Business Insider - Here's Why Fannie And Freddie Are Not At Fault For The Housing Bubble

Center for Responsible Lending - CRA is not to Blame for the Mortgage Meltdown

Don't blame Fannie and Freddie

Private sector loans, not Fannie or Freddie, triggered crisis

ForeclosureS.com - ACORN - Progress in the Fight Against Predatory Lending

Acorn Led Financial Sector With Warnings on Lending

Biggest Defaulters on Mortgages Are the Rich

The Millionaire Foreclosure Club

Foreclosure double standard: Why the rich get away with defaulting

More Rich People Default On Mortgages

The rich bail faster on mortgages

Biggest Defaulters on Mortgages Are the Rich

Rich Borrowers More Likely to Default on Mortgage

Foreclosures & Walking Away: 60 Minutes Eyes an Epidemic

Speculation By Investors Largely Cause Of Foreclosure Crisis

How the Foreclosure Crisis Started: Investors, Speculators, Mortgage Fraud & Lax Lending Standards


"Eighty percent of Republicans are just Democrats that don't know what's going on"
Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

You're up pea brain.....


----------



## birddog (Sep 12, 2013)

Bfgrn said:


> Pauli007001 said:
> 
> 
> > Bfgrn said:
> ...



BOVINE SCATOLOGY!!!


----------



## MeBelle (Sep 13, 2013)

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Je4cbBY0R0Y"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Je4cbBY0R0Y[/ame]


[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGS6xvlcOEI&feature=player_embedded"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGS6xvlcOEI&feature=player_embedded[/ame]

*The Bush adminstration in 4/2001 raised red flags*, the 2002 budget requests declares Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac "Potential problem.. and can cause strong repercussions in the financial markets"

*In 2003 the White House upgraded the warning to a systemic risk that could spread beyond the housing sector*.
John Snow Treasury Secretary called for Regulations & Supervision of GSE's.

Barney Frank (D-MA) denied there was any problem " Fannie Mac & Freddie Mare are not in Crisis"
_Encouraging the government to do more to  get low income families into homes,_ Ultimately blocking the regulation.

*Allan Greenspan , 2/17/2005* spoke about the dangers of Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac "enabling these institutions to increase in size -and they will once the crisis in their judgement passes-we are placing the total financial system of the future at a substantial risk

*Charles Schumer (D-NY) 4/6/2005* ..."I think Fannie & Freddie have done an incredibly good job, and are an intristic part of making america the best housed people in the world....if you look over the last 20 or whatever yrs. They've done a very, very good job.

*McCain (R-AZ) 5/25/2006* For years I have been concerned about the regulatory structure that governs Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac...
and their sheer magnitude of these companies and the role they play in the housing market...the GSE's need to be reformed without delay."

That bill ( FEDERAL HOUSING ENTERPRISE REGULATORY REFORM ACT) made it out of the senate banking committee with a party line vote. All the democrats voted against it.

Senator Obama did not weigh in on the bill.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There's more, but my work here is done.


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## The2ndAmendment (Sep 13, 2013)

Clinton repealing the Glass Steagal Act was the primary enabler (not cause).


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Sep 13, 2013)

> Obamacare just ruined my life



Got to love conservative hypocrisy

So much for personal responsibility.


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## Bfgrn (Sep 13, 2013)

Pauli007001 said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > Pauli007001 said:
> ...









Federal Reserve governor Randall Kroszner, *a conservative economist* on leave from a teaching post at the University of Chicago Booth Graduate School of Business, says the Community Reinvestment Act isnt to blame for the subprime mess, despite some accusations to the contrary.





*Kroszner*

First, only a small portion of subprime mortgage originations are related to the CRA. Second, CRA- related loans appear to perform comparably to other types of subprime loans. Taken together we believe that the available evidence runs counter to the contention that the CRA contributed in any substantive way to the current mortgage crisis, he said in a speech today in Washington.

The Community Reinvestment Act, which dates to the 1970s, was crafted to combat discrimination and red-lining. It requires regulators to press banks to lend to low-income and minority neighborhoods. Kroszners speech summarized research the Fed has been doing on two basic questions: (1) What share of subprime loans were related to CRA? Answer: Loans that are the focus of the CRA represent a very small portion of the subprime lending market, casting considerable doubt on the potential contribution that the law could have made to the subprime mortgage crisis. (2) How have CRA-related subprime loans performed relative to other loans. Answer: [D]elinquency rates were high in all neighborhood income groups, and that CRA-related subprime loans performed in a comparable manner to other subprime loans.

Fed economists found that about *60% of higher-priced loan originations  the technical definition of subrpime  went to middle- or higher-income borrowers or neighborhoods who arent targeted by CRA. *More than 20% of the higher-priced loans were extended to lower-income borrowers or borrowers in lower-income areas by institutions that arent banks  and arent covered by CRA.

The striking result, Kroszner said: *Only 6% of all the higher-priced loans were extended by CRA-covered lenders to lower-income borrowers or neighborhoods in their CRA assessment areas, the local geographies that are the primary focus for CRA evaluation purposes.*

This result undermines the assertion by critics of the potential for a substantial role for the CRA in the subprime crisis. In other words, the very small share of all higher-priced loan originations that can reasonably be attributed to the CRA makes it hard to imagine how this law could have contributed in any meaningful way to the current subprime crisis. Banks can also meet CRA obligations by buying loans from mortgage brokers, he noted. But less than 2% of the higher-priced loans (those would help banks meet CRA requirements) sold by independent mortgage companies were purchased by CRA-covered institutions.

Fed?s Kroszner: Don?t Blame CRA - Real Time Economics - WSJ


----------



## Bfgrn (Sep 13, 2013)

MeBelle60 said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Je4cbBY0R0Y
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGS6xvlcOEI&feature=player_embedded
> ...



Maybe you just FORGOT...

Bush's 'ownership society'

"America is a stronger country every single time a family moves into a home of their own," George W. Bush said in October 2004. To achieve his vision, Bush pushed new policies encouraging homeownership, like the "zero-down-payment initiative," which was much as it soundsa government-sponsored program that allowed people to get mortgages without a down payment. More exotic mortgages followed, including ones with no monthly payments for the first two years. Other mortgages required no documentation other than the say-so of the borrower. Absurd though these all were, they paled in comparison to the financial innovations that grew out of the mortgagesderivatives built on other derivatives, packaged and repackaged until no one could identify what they contained and how much they were, in fact, worth.

As we know by now, these instruments have brought the global financial system, improbably, to the brink of collapse.

End of the Ownership Society


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Sep 13, 2013)

> &#8220;This result undermines the assertion by critics of the potential for a substantial role for the CRA in the subprime crisis. In other words, the very small share of all higher-priced loan originations that can reasonably be attributed to the CRA makes it hard to imagine how this law could have contributed in any meaningful way to the current subprime crisis.&#8221;



Yet another lie contrived by the partisan right exposed to indeed be a lie.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 13, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> Clinton repealing the Glass Steagal Act was the primary enabler (not cause).



That is correct. 

Do you support reinstatement of the law?


----------



## The2ndAmendment (Sep 13, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > Clinton repealing the Glass Steagal Act was the primary enabler (not cause).
> ...



I would, but something tells me that under current circumstances, it would have no effect (in other words, you are privy to additional information, and are purposely leading me into a partisan trap of 'damned if you support, damned if you don't).


----------



## JoeB131 (Sep 13, 2013)

Pauli007001 said:


> [
> So you tax the wealthy into poverty, what then?
> No point working hard to get wealthy if its going to be taken from you.
> Might as well work for just enough, 10 hours a week would be nice.
> Spend an extra 30 hours on the golf course or out fishing.



Guy, under Eisenhower, the top Marginal Rate was 93%.  JFK brought that down to 70%, we still had prosperity, were able to put Men on the Moon, fight a pointless war in Vietnam and have a Great Society.  The Wealthy are not the geese that laid the golden egg. A strong vibrant middle class is.   






Pauli007001 said:


> [
> That will get worse.
> All stores will be forced to do business like Walmart.
> Then the dhot starts to hit the fan, state of emergency, police state, nationalization of industries etc etc, soon we will be living in something like the UK OF THE LATE 70s.
> ...



Not really a good comparison, since the UK's entire economic model was based on control of an Empire that provided massive amounts of raw material and cheap labor until those countries got sick of it and threw them out.  

And even then, the UK was not a bad place to live.   The lack of sadness about the death of Maggie Thatcher shows a lot of Brits actually missed the days before "Milk-Snatcher Thatcher". 

However, your whining and pretending you are a vast success aside (Seriously, keep retelling the story, you'll be Bill Gates eventually) we are talking about health care. 

The amount of money spent isn't the issue.  We are ALREADY spending more per capita than any nation in the world. 

We just aren't spending it effectively, as large slices of that money go to pay obscene executive salaries and payouts to investors who don't add one iota to the quality of health care.  

Meanwhile, 46 million Americans had no health coverage and 25 million had inadequate health coverage and those who have it often find themselves at the mercy of insurance companies telling them that treatments their doctors say they need are "elective" or "expiramental" or "a pre-existing condition".


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 13, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > The2ndAmendment said:
> ...



No. I just wanted to know if you supported the reinstatement of Glass Steagall. You see, I agree with you that repelling that law was a huge mistake. It allowed banks to gamble with deposits. 

I support regulations....federal regulations with big, sharp teeth.....that rein in bankers......I much prefer it when bankers ore "conservative" in their practices. 

Thus, I support progressive politicians like Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders...who are committed to making banks become honest brokers. 

Which politicians do you support regarding their stance on this issue?


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## MeBelle (Sep 13, 2013)

Bfgrn said:


> MeBelle60 said:
> 
> 
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Je4cbBY0R0Y
> ...



Nice blog with ZERO references. 

How about some links to the underlined in your post that Bush approved?
I'll start off with the zero down mortgage:

In June 2002, President Bush announced an aggressive homeownership agenda to remove the barriers that block American families from achieving homeownership with the goal of creating 5.5 million new minority homeowners by the end of this decade. The Zero Down Payment Program would move the nation significantly closer toward this goal

 In order to cover the costs of the program, families who qualify for the Zero Down Payment Plan would be charged a modestly higher insurance premium on their home loan.
The upfront premium would be set at 2.25% as compared to 1.50%, and the annual premium would be 0.75% as compared to 0.50%.

Borrowers would be held to the same underwriting guidelines as those who apply for FHA's standard three percent downpayment mortgage. They must meet the same payment-to-income and debt-to-income ratios and the same credit standards.

Statement of John C. Weicher - HUD

btw, I already have the answers to the underlined.
Let's see you do some homework.
Blogs are not answers.


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## eagle1462010 (Sep 13, 2013)

Riddle me this......................

The Libs and the Obama Boot Licking Brigade continually post that the ACA is the LAW of the land, and basically say Deal With It.............................Basically bragging that the We Won and You Lost, Na Na Ne Na Na.............typical BS.......................

So the LAW states that the Employer Mandate was required to go into effect in 2014...........

Now, they have decided to postpone the LAW, for a year..............By CBO estimates a cost of 12 Billion in Tax Revenues from businesses.................................

They have TOTAL DISRESPECT for the LAW and the Constitution of the United States in doing so.  The Law can only be changed by the Congress and the President via NEW LEGISLATION..............

We are not a country ruled by a King and Queen or Dictator.  We are a Republic ruled by LAW.  The President and the Congress will be in VIOLATION of the Law by postponing the Employer Mandate for a year, and of course the Libs here Defend their right to VIOLATE THE LAW............

It is the Presidents JOB to enforce the Law.  He will be in VIOLATION of that oath in 2014.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itmNiTwHOsM]Judge Dredd - I AM THE LAW - YouTube[/ame]


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## LoneLaugher (Sep 13, 2013)

eagle1462010 said:


> Riddle me this......................
> 
> The Libs and the Obama Boot Licking Brigade continually post that the ACA is the LAW of the land, and basically say Deal With It.............................Basically bragging that the We Won and You Lost, Na Na Ne Na Na.............typical BS.......................
> 
> ...



Wow! You are a genius! This is absolute grounds for impeachment! Good catch!


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## eagle1462010 (Sep 13, 2013)

My response to my own riddle.

Dear President Obama and the Democratic Congress.  You have taken an oath of office and have the responsibility to Enforce the Laws of this Republic.  Your decision to postpone the Employer Mandate, which is the Law, is a clear violation of the Constitution of the United States and the Republic.  If you believe the Law would adversely harm businesses and the citizens, then you are required to go to Congress and demand or ask them to Pass a new law to allow for a delay of 1 year.  You do not have the authority, via the Constitution, to arbitrarily change the law without DUE PROCESS.  

Honor your oath of office and change the law via the Constitution.  Pass a law to allow  the delay of 1 year.  We are not a country ruled by a King or a Dictator.  We are a Republic ruled by Law.  It is your job to enforce the law.  Do your job.


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## eagle1462010 (Sep 13, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> eagle1462010 said:
> 
> 
> > Riddle me this......................
> ...



Yes it is, but of course the Senate would never impeach him as it is ruled by his Liberal Brigade.

You, of course, will have no problem if they decide to arbitrarily VIOLATE THE LAW.  They have NO RIGHT to change the law without going through the Constitution.  But since when has Obama and the Liberal Brigade really cared about the law....................

We are a nation of laws, and you Sir obviously don't give a rats ass when the POTUS and the DEMS violate the law.  Because you must defend your Mantra.

There is absolutely no doubt, that this will be a CLEAR VIOLATION OF THE LAW.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 13, 2013)

eagle1462010 said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > eagle1462010 said:
> ...



Oh yes! It is clear. When are you going to just figure it out? We control everything here. Us libs and progressives have won. Don't you see? Our guys can do anything they want......and the laws don't matter. The press will never report it. They are in our pocket. You cannot regain control by conventional means! It is decided. The minorities have all been bribed into permanent submission. You KNOW this to all be true. 

The question is.......what are you gonna do about it?


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## eagle1462010 (Sep 13, 2013)

Lowe's Home Improvement has made the Decision to go part time....................aka 9,000 permanent employees will be part time.  It is being done via the ACA law as a business decision and we all damned well know it.

Lowe's Home Improvement Chain to Hire 54,000 Part Time and Seasonal Workers | NBC Southern California

Why would they do this?  The Liberal Brigade and Obama demand you step up and pay your fair share, even though the Lying POS's know that if you do so you pass the cost on to the consumers if you didn't make this decision................................

Pony up Lowe's.............................

You know that these 9,000 will only cost you 27 MILLION a year if you allow them to work full time.  Be responsible to the people Lowe's.  Simply pass this cost on to the consumer via higher prices as a standard business practice and embrace the LIBERAL MANTRA..........................

Health Insurance Reform - FAQs: Employer Mandates

Q-2: Does the Act contain an employer mandate? 

A. Yes. While the Acts do not include an employer mandate in the strictest sense of the term, the Acts do stipulate that employers with more than 50 employees:
Who do not offer insurance coverage and have at least one Full Time Employee (FTE) that receives a premium tax credit or cost-sharing subsidy would be subject to a penalty of $2000 times the number of FTE;
Who offer coverage but have at least one FTE that enrolls in the Exchange and receives a premium tax credit pay penalties of* $3,000 per employee receiving a premium credit.*
In both cases the first 30 workers employed by the employer are disregarded in calculating the amount of any penalty.


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## eagle1462010 (Sep 13, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> eagle1462010 said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



Put you on a comedy show for Satire, so you can actually earn an income.  You are quite the funny man as you avoid Real Debate on the subject at hand.

You can't really debate my issue, as you know can't win it.  So you simply play this little BS game of Satire to DIVERT my point.

Bottom line.  Your BS can never out weigh the truth.  Your Reps and POTUS will be in VIOLATION of the LAW if they arbitrarily change the law and grant an extension of a year.  End of Discussion and you know it.

Now, back to Satire.  Do you have any good Obama Jokes............................

I believe he is a Joke, but alas that's just my opinion.

Please proceed as King Obama decides which laws he can arbitrarily kick to the curb because it's good to be the king.................

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StJS51d1Fzg]it's GOOD to be the KING.flv - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 13, 2013)

What is this thing you speak of? Satire?


----------



## eagle1462010 (Sep 13, 2013)

> Obamacare Exchanges Delayed to 2015, Obama Now Turns to Mass Marketing
> 
> The Obama administration announced this week that special exchanges designed to &#8220;make it easier&#8221; for small businesses to provide affordable health care insurance for employees will be delayed again to 2015 in the 33 states where the federal government will be running the exchanges.



*THE LAW*



> Health Reform Law Makes Clear That Subsidies Will Be Available in States with Federally Operated Exchanges ? Center on Budget and Policy Priorities
> 
> Section 1321 of the ACA says that if a state elects not to establish its own exchange or will not be ready to operate its exchange in 2014, &#8220;the Secretary shall (directly or through agreement with a not-for-profit entity) establish and operate such Exchange within the State and the Secretary shall take such actions as are necessary to implement such other requirements&#8221; (emphasis added).[2]  In other words, the federal government will stand in the shoes of a state that elects not to operate an exchange by establishing and operating the exchange on the state&#8217;s behalf. [3]



Again, Obama and the Dems were required to inact Federal Exchanges by 2014.  They have been delayed a year as well.  They are not ready, and need another year to implement the law.

Yet the law requires them to activate in 2014.

You get the point.


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## eagle1462010 (Sep 13, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> What is this thing you speak of? Satire?



Your post's which need to be on Saturday Night live................


----------



## eagle1462010 (Sep 13, 2013)

Riddle me this.................................

How can you delay the LAW for a year on 2 critical elements of the Law, and not postpone the entire law for a year as well...............................

Secondly, how can you arbitrarily not comply with the law.............and change it without Congress.............

You take away the Exchanges as they are not ready yet for a year, yet still require the INDIVIDUAL MANDATE to continue...........................

Yet in state's with NO EXCHANGES until 2015, the INDIVIDUALS have no options to apply to the exchanges.  How can the government then punish the individuals when they can't even apply to the exchanges.......................

Why hasn't Obama just pushed the whole dang law back a year as key elements aren't in implementation................He is clearly not obeying the law, as it clearly states the implementation dates.

Riddle me this.................

Any State in our country which will not have a Federal Exchange in place in 2014 should, BY DUE PROCESS AND IN FEDERAL COURT, REFUSE to honor implementation of the ACA law................

Since, the individuals of their state, have no Federal Exchange in place, how can their citizens obtain insurance through the exchanges....................

I would like to see 33 States, go to Federal Court, with this claim.  No exchanges, then the law is invalid to the individuals.................................

AKA.......How can you enforce the individual mandate, when individuals can't go to an exchange to obtain insurance.

If you can't see this as total BS, then you of course are part of the Obama Boot Licking Liberal Brigade.


----------



## Snookie (Sep 13, 2013)

The anti-health care people here are just going to have to suck it up and learn personal responsibility and follow the rule of law or move to Somalia if they don't like it.


----------



## eagle1462010 (Sep 13, 2013)

Yet Another White House Obamacare Delay: Out-Of-Pocket Caps Waived Until 2015 - Forbes

Now comes word that another costly provision of the health lawits caps on out-of-pocket insurance costswill be delayed for one more year.

 One of the most significant is its caps on out-of-pocket insurance costs, such as co-pays and deductibles. Section 2707(b) of the Public Health Service Act, as added by Obamacare, requires that a group health plan and a health insurance issuer offering group or individual health insurance coverage may not establish lifetime limits on the dollar value of benefits for the any participant or beneficiary. Annual limits on cost-sharing are specified by Section 1302(c) of the Affordable Care Act; in addition, starting in 2014, deductibles are limited to $2,000 per year for individual plans, and $4,000 per year for family plans.

The reason for the delay? Federal officials said that many insurers and employers needed more time to comply because they used separate companies to help administer major medical coverage and drug benefits, with separate limits on out-of-pocket costs. In many cases, the companies have separate computer systems that cannot communicate with one another.


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## eagle1462010 (Sep 13, 2013)

Snookie said:


> The anti-health care people here are just going to have to suck it up and learn personal responsibility and follow the rule of law or move to Somalia if they don't like it.



LOL

Rule of Law...............

The law requires all implementation in 2014, yet as I've posted, large portions of the law are delayed for a year....................

Yet even though critical elements are not in place the Gov't still wants to impose portions of the law.................

The Fed and Congress should pass a law to extend the ACA by 1 year, as it simply isn't ready to implement.  How can you impose individual mandates when the critical elements will not be in place for a year.

And again, another Lib not wanting to comment on the fact that the Feds are arbitrarily changing the rules without DUE PROCESS.

They need to pass a delay of one year in congress.  That's the way this shit is supposed to work.


----------



## eagle1462010 (Sep 13, 2013)

BTW..............

Your inept Reps have opened Pandora's Box.  States should be filing in Federal Court's that they need not comply to the law in 2014 because key elements of the law are not in place.

This of course will result in a relative chit storm in the legal system.


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## eagle1462010 (Sep 13, 2013)

Yet Another White House Obamacare Delay: Out-Of-Pocket Caps Waived Until 2015 - Forbes

They asked for more time to comply. Exactly how is it in consumers interests to pay far more for health insurance than they do already?

Its not. *Unless you [/B]have a serious, chronic condition, in which case you may benefit from the fact that law forces healthy people to subsidize your care. To progressives, this is the holy grail. But for economically rational individuals, its yet another reason to drop out of the insurance market altogether. For economically rational businesses, its a reason to self-insure, in order to get out from under these costly mandates.*


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## eagle1462010 (Sep 13, 2013)

Obamacare.............................

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzhSXZwvDH8]Burn it to the Ground- Nickelback lyrics - YouTube[/ame]


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## RKMBrown (Sep 13, 2013)

Snookie said:


> The anti-health care people here are just going to have to suck it up and learn personal responsibility and follow the rule of law or move to Somalia if they don't like it.



Or form an armed militia and take the country back.  Just sayin, there are other options.


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## LoneLaugher (Sep 13, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Snookie said:
> 
> 
> > The anti-health care people here are just going to have to suck it up and learn personal responsibility and follow the rule of law or move to Somalia if they don't like it.
> ...



Just sayin', huh? 

I wonder if you know how silly it sounds when one of you claims that you have to take the country back? If you did, you wouldn't say it, would you?


----------



## thanatos144 (Sep 13, 2013)

how funny is this the only people exempted from this fascist bill for a year is the rich. hey liberals who again supports the one percent over the 99 percent?


----------



## RKMBrown (Sep 13, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Snookie said:
> ...



Yeah cause a civil war has never happened before, and also cause we really do need a NHS with enough bullets to kill every American citizen 3 times over.


----------



## RKMBrown (Sep 13, 2013)

thanatos144 said:


> how funny is this the only people exempted from this fascist bill for a year is the rich. hey liberals who again supports the one percent over the 99 percent?


You are nothing but a lying sack.  There is no exemption based on wealth.

The exemptions were all by the Democrats and the people they exempted were all democrat fat cats.


----------



## Mr Natural (Sep 13, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Snookie said:
> 
> 
> > The anti-health care people here are just going to have to suck it up and learn personal responsibility and follow the rule of law or move to Somalia if they don't like it.
> ...



What are you people waiting for?  It's been five years now and all you do is talk about it.  

I'm not getting any younger and I would love to see some action (on TV, that is) before I go.

And do me a solid, if you are in fact going to start this armed insurrection of yours, please keep it far away from my neck of the woods.  I don't want to be inconvenienced by your nonsense.


----------



## RKMBrown (Sep 13, 2013)

Mr Clean said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Snookie said:
> ...



Armed insurrection? 

Why, do you plan on infringing on my rights?

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."


----------



## Mr Natural (Sep 13, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Mr Clean said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...





Well, have at it, what are you waiting for?


----------



## RKMBrown (Sep 13, 2013)

Mr Clean said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Mr Clean said:
> ...



To assume I'm waiting is a grave mistake.

I'm already in an armed militia.  And, most of us are also members of the Tea Party.  And we are already taking our country back one citizen, one hovel at a time.  

You may thank god for TX showing the way any time you get a chance.


----------



## Mr Natural (Sep 13, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Mr Clean said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...




For what, posting on a internet message board?


----------



## KissMy (Sep 13, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> Until I can find a second job, it is forced.



You are not forced to work there. You can get a different job, a second job, contract work for yourself or start your own company.


----------



## Mr Natural (Sep 13, 2013)

KissMy said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > Until I can find a second job, it is forced.
> ...



Those actions require effort and detract from internet time.


----------



## RKMBrown (Sep 13, 2013)

Mr Clean said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Mr Clean said:
> ...



You really think I am Texas?  I'm just one citizen of Texas, I'm not Texas.  You may start with thanking Texas for showing the way regarding taxing and spending policies.  We had a surplus this year and our tax rates went down.


----------



## Jarlaxle (Sep 13, 2013)

Snookie said:


> The anti-health care people here are just going to have to suck it up and learn personal responsibility and follow the rule of law or move to Somalia if they don't like it.



Actually, I am seriously considering doing a 180: just go full-on parasite & figure out how to get myself on any and all possible government welfare program.  Why keep working when I can sit at home & collect a check?


----------



## Kooshdakhaa (Sep 14, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> Mr Clean said:
> 
> 
> > The2ndAmendment said:
> ...



It sounds to me like your employers are rightwing nutcases who are punishing their employees as a way of lashing out at the damn president who has the audacity to try and make it so that all Americans can have healthcare.

Pretty pathetic.  People like that will take this country down some day.  Despicable.  They're like traitors in my book.


----------



## dblack (Sep 14, 2013)

Kooshdakhaa said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > Mr Clean said:
> ...



String 'em up!


----------



## Kooshdakhaa (Sep 14, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Mr Clean said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



What would happen is you'd be shooting other citizens.  Anyone branded a liberal would be hauled off to camps or just executed on the spot.  I guess you'd also be shooting and killing the U.S. military.  Instead of "thanking them for their service" you'd be fighting against them.  Because they will be trying to protect the citizens of this country from the insurrection.

And I should mention that a lot of people who have guns don't agree with you.  Including conservatives who wouldn't want to see their liberal family members treated like traitors, and would be shooting back at you, also, in addition to the military and the police.

Oh, and of course, once the rest of the world sees the breakdown within our country, I'm sure there will be opportunists ready to come in and take over.

Great idea, this taking up of arms against the government, when there's nothing that really warrants such drastic action.

Obama's last term will be over soon, and you all can elect yourself a nice white president and calm the fuck down.


----------



## Moonglow (Sep 14, 2013)

Jarlaxle said:


> Snookie said:
> 
> 
> > The anti-health care people here are just going to have to suck it up and learn personal responsibility and follow the rule of law or move to Somalia if they don't like it.
> ...



Then you can hate yourself in the morning.


----------



## eagle1462010 (Sep 14, 2013)

Lowe?s to add 9,000 part-time workers - Charlotte Business Journal

Sigh............

Here is an example again.  Lowe's making the shift to part time.  9,000 who would all be in the FPL levels.  If all used the Tax Credits the cost would be $3,000 per employee adding *27 MILLION* to operating costs.

Let me repeat that dollar amount.  27 MILLION.

That isn't chump change Libs.


----------



## eagle1462010 (Sep 14, 2013)

BTW.  It's not just Lowe's doing this.  MILLIONS OF JOBS are now going Part Time to avoid the Tax.

Health Care isn't free.  If Lowe's had to add 27 Million to expenses, they would pass that on to the consumer.  Which means the masses STILL PAY FOR THE DANG THING.

But it was supposed to save money.  That being, if you buy the car that was only driven on Sunday's to Church BS.


----------



## Jarlaxle (Sep 14, 2013)

Moonglow said:


> Jarlaxle said:
> 
> 
> > Snookie said:
> ...



Hardly.  I know that I need to look out for number one, first, last, and always.  Best thing I ever got from my father: "Look out for yourself, because NOBODY else will!"


----------



## Noomi (Sep 14, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> I just received a letter from my job stating that no one will be working more than 30 hours a week.
> 
> I normally worked 48-52 hours per week generating 10 hours of regular play, and 8-12 hours of overtime time. Each hour I work averages an ADDITIONAL $ 11.25 in tips.
> 
> ...



Diddums.

The lowest paid and poorest people now have health care coverage and don't have to worry about a massive bill, and all you can worry about is taking a little longer to complete a degree?

I have a violin, shall I play it?


----------



## eagle1462010 (Sep 14, 2013)

Let's go smaller with examples.

Business has exactly 50 Full Time Employees.  They stuff boxes and ship items out, so that should put them in the FPL ranges, aka they get the Credit.

The Business offers Insurance but it is so high no one can afford it.  Face it, you need large numbers to get lower rates.  So off to the Health Exchanges, that aren't ready yet until 2015, the employees go.

Let's say they all get insurance and use the Tax Credits.  Now the company has to pay $3,000 per employee as they offer insurance.  Cost is $150,000.  Company decides to not offer Insurance and now it's cost is $2,000 per employee.  Cost is $100,000.

Employer lays off 1 employee or goes Part Time with a percentage of employees.  Cost is 0, Nil, nothing.

Businesses are choosing the last option.

WELCOME TO OBAMA'S PART TIME AMERICA.


----------



## eagle1462010 (Sep 14, 2013)

Noomi said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > I just received a letter from my job stating that no one will be working more than 30 hours a week.
> ...



Well hell's bells.  He can just join the lower classes and get the shit Free as well.  You completely ignore the fact that his INCOME just got sliced and diced because of the ACA.

Hell, let's all stop working then.  Let Sugar Daddy Obama take care of us all.  Get Welfare, Housing assistance, Food Stamps, Power Bill Assistance, a Free Cell Phone, Free Rubbers, and now get Free Health Insurance.

Let's all join up and go with the masses as the Gov't finds ways to take more of our money away to give it to those who are more worthy of our dollars.

Geeesh.  Marx would be proud.


----------



## eagle1462010 (Sep 14, 2013)

I'm going to restate other points I've been bringing up.

Critical areas of the law have been pushed back to 2015.  Not via the Congress either.

Employer Mandates, Federal Exchanges, and Out of Pocket have all been pushed to 2015 because of the problems with implementing the law.  Yet the rest of the law is staying valid.

So how can you push the remainder of the law in 2014 when critical elements are missing.................

If they had an ounce of honor, they'd push a Congressional bill to delay the ACA for a year while they get the shit together.


----------



## Jarlaxle (Sep 14, 2013)

Noomi said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > I just received a letter from my job stating that no one will be working more than 30 hours a week.
> ...



Are you stoned, bitch, or are you just dumb as a rock?


----------



## eagle1462010 (Sep 14, 2013)

Is There a Republican Alternative to Obamacare? - John C. Goodman - Page full

Here are a few more ways in which Republican and Democratic approaches differ:

Tax Fairness. Under the Republican approach, every individual and every family will get the same help from government:

*Regardless of whether they work less than 30 hours a week or more;
*
*Whether their workplace has fewer than 50 employees or more; and
*
Whether they are in a union or not.

Fair Treatment of Employers, Employees and Retirees. Unlike ObamaCare, the Republican approach:

*Would not encourage employers to avoid hiring new workers;
*
Would not encourage employers to drop health coverage for current employees or for their retirees;

Would not penalize employees and their employers if they work full time rather than part time;

*Would not favor small over large business or vice versa;
*
Would not favor non-union over union firms or vice versa; and

Would not encourage outsourcing or labor saving technologies or in other ways discourage economic recovery.

*No Mandate.* No one would be forced to buy health insurance. People who turn down the tax credit and elect to be uninsured would have a higher tax bill, however. For families that pay income taxes,* failure to insure would result in $2,500 in higher taxes for individuals and $8,000 for a family of four.* *They could either use these funds to buy health insurance or give them to Uncle Sam.*

Universal Coverage. *ObamaCare is expected to leave 30 million people uninsured and the actual number is probably much greater than that*. By contrast, under the Republican approach it's hard to imagine anyone remaining uninsured. *The reason: every adult can have at least $2,500 of health insurance for free. Every family of four can have $8,000 of insurance for free.* Insurance at this premium may consist of very narrow networks and perhaps pay provider fees only a bit better than Medicaid. Still, it's free. I'm sure some will turn down the offer anyway, however. I wish Republicans would deal with that eventuality by sending unclaimed tax credits to safety net institutions in the communities where the uninsured live. This would guarantee a form of universal coverage for everyone.

*Minimum Bureaucracy. The Republican bill is only 56 pages long.* One suspects that the regulations needed to implement it would fall well short of the* 20,000 pages needed to implement ObamaCare.* Because the tax credits are the same for everyone, there would be no need for an exchange to verify income or establish that an applicant had not been offered affordable coverage by an employer or link electronically to five or six different government agencies. Uwe Reinhardt has written about the highly complex assignments the ObamaCare exchanges must carry out. So have I. By contrast, EHealth (a private online exchange that has allowed more than 3 million people to obtain health insurance) could handle the entire process under the Republican plan without spending millions of dollars on new technology ? as the Obama administration is doing.

How can we pay for the Republican plan, especially given our frequent criticism of ObamaCare's unsustainable cuts in Medicare and our dislike of ObamaCare's taxes on capital? I believe it can be done with money already in the system (that is, with no new taxes) even after restoring some Medicare spending and reversing the taxes on investment income.

If I could summarize these huge differences in one sentence, it would be this: *The Republican approach is focused on getting rid of perverse incentives and treating everyone equitably, while the Democratic approach leaves the current system's perverse incentives and inequities in place and adds new ones.*


----------



## Noomi (Sep 14, 2013)

Jarlaxle said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> > The2ndAmendment said:
> ...



No one will work more than 30 hours a week. You can get a max of 30 hrs a week. I would LOVE to get that many hours a week. Y'all need to consider the misfortunes of others, instead of thinking only about yourselves.


----------



## eagle1462010 (Sep 14, 2013)

Noomi said:


> Jarlaxle said:
> 
> 
> > Noomi said:
> ...



LOL

Dumb as a rock............fits the bill.............How many can survive in this world on 30 hours.  You've lost it.  They'll have to work 2 of these jobs and not get any OVERTIME PAY.

So they get to work more hours for less money just to get by.


----------



## eagle1462010 (Sep 14, 2013)

Delta warns ObamaCare will drive $100 million spike in health care costs | Fox News

100 Million added to the cost's of Delta airlines..............................

Rah Rah Rah  IT'S FREE................................

Are you ready to pay more for a plane ticket.........................as they pass the buck on to the consumer..............


----------



## JoeB131 (Sep 14, 2013)

eagle1462010 said:


> Delta warns ObamaCare will drive $100 million spike in health care costs | Fox News
> 
> 100 Million added to the cost's of Delta airlines..............................
> 
> ...



I don't fly, and the rich/business assholes who do can afford to pay more.


----------



## Jarlaxle (Sep 14, 2013)

Noomi said:


> Jarlaxle said:
> 
> 
> > Noomi said:
> ...



Then improve yourself!  Stop pissing and moaning, and LEARN A SKILL!  Stop bitching, bitch!


----------



## Snookie (Sep 14, 2013)

Jarlaxle said:


> Noomi said:
> 
> 
> > The2ndAmendment said:
> ...



Watch your language around my home girl you stupid fucking ass hole.


----------



## Jarlaxle (Sep 14, 2013)

Fuck a bandsaw, pisshead.


----------



## EriktheRed (Sep 14, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> To assume I'm waiting is a grave mistake.
> 
> *I'm already in an armed militia.*  And, most of us are also members of the Tea Party.  And we are already taking our country back one citizen, one hovel at a time.



Same one as this guy?

In Texas, if at first you can't secede, try joining a militia? | Bud Kennedy ...


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## eagle1462010 (Sep 14, 2013)

JoeB131 said:


> eagle1462010 said:
> 
> 
> > Delta warns ObamaCare will drive $100 million spike in health care costs | Fox News
> ...



Ah so...............

Only rich people fly..............100 million more in expenses good as Delta evil corp.


----------



## RKMBrown (Sep 14, 2013)

EriktheRed said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > To assume I'm waiting is a grave mistake.
> ...



Heh.  No.


----------



## RKMBrown (Sep 14, 2013)

Kooshdakhaa said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Mr Clean said:
> ...



Why would that happen?  Is the POTUS planing on using US Army to oppress the citizens of the USA?  I don't plan on killing anyone that does not deserve to be killed.  I suspect if there was a shooting war the Army here in TX would join up with the citizenry, not some tyrant in DC.  My neighbor is an officer at Ft. Hood.  I live about 15m from Ft. Hood as the crow flies.  I'm not worried about those guys one bit.


----------



## Foxfyre (Sep 14, 2013)

Obamacare is shaping up to be one of the worst economic boondoggles in the nation's history.  The OP reflects the situation of many of our neighbors and other friends and family.  Companies are scrambling to downsize to avoid the most onerous requirements of Obamacare that they cannot afford, most especially in this crappy economy.  So people who once were enjoying a good income are now scrambling and having to hunt for second jobs just to make ends somewhat meet.  And second jobs are difficult to come by thanks to an incompetent administration and congress.

I was just reading today that insurance premiums in Wisconsin are rising a whopping 125% and nobody has seen their premiums decreased which was one of the selling points of Obamacare in the first place.  Obamacare was supposed to make healthcare more affordable, yes?  It certaily has been a miserable failure in that regard.

Meanwhile we watch thousands of our excellent physicians and surgeons leave the medical field while opportunistic foreign doctors flock here only because wages here are so much higher than they are in their home countries.  During my aunt's recent siege in the hospital, she didn't have a single doctor who spoke really good English.  I have watched with my own eyes hospital and rehab center conditions deteriorate as the zero hour for Obamacare approaches.

Even the unions are whining even though they were allowed to opt out of Obamacare along with hundreds of others of Obama's favorite supporters.  Despite not having to embrace Obamacare, so many companies are downsizing because of it, or refusing to hire lest they be subject to it, it is severely impacting jobs for union workers too.

We now have more Americans and a higher percentage of the work force out of work or under employed than we had during the Great Depression.  And enormous numbers of Americans forced to accept government relief.

At the last count, at least 21 states have opted out of expansion of Medicaid via Obamacare meaning millions of the poorest Americans will not be able to benefit from that.  Obamacare was supposed to cover 43 million uninsured Americans--which of course has always been the most fatal flaw in the whole scheme.  But the best analyists now say that 30 million Americans will still have no access to healthcare when Obamacare is fully implemented.



> We think of the iconic images of the Great Depression as representative of a uniquely miserable period, long vanished from American history. The bread lines and soup kitchens of those abnormal times have gone. So, too, has the sight of thousands of men (there were very few women among them then) waiting all day outside a factory in a forlorn quest for work.
> 
> But they're there still, in the many millions across the country&#8212;little changed in their total since the 1930s: 12.3 million today are fully unemployed, compared to 12.8 million in 1933 at the depth of the depression. The difference is that now they're invisible, because we've organized relief differently. In our "recovery," the millions are being assisted, out of sight, by the government, through unemployment checks, Social Security disability checks, and food stamps. More than 47 million Americans are in the food stamp program, some 15 percent of the total population, compared with the 7.9 percent participation in food stamps from 1970 to 2000. Then there are the more than 11 million Americans who are collecting checks from Social Security to compensate for disability, a record. Half of them have signed on since President Obama came to office. Twenty years ago, one person was on disability for every 35 workers; today, the ratio is one for every 16. Such an increase is simply impossible to explain by disability experienced during employment, for it is inconceivable that work in America has become so much more dangerous. For many, this program is another unemployment program, only this time it is without end.
> 
> ...



But the diehard Obama worshippers continue to support this.  And blame Republicans as evil because at least a few of them are trying to stop the train before a horrible crash.  It just blows your mind.


----------



## boedicca (Sep 14, 2013)

I'll add that despite the costs of ObamaCare now being forecasted at double the original estimate ($1.8T instead of $900B), the CBO estimates that there will still be 31 millions UNINSURED.

So, why bother at all?

1.  To benefit Big Government Cronies in Pharma and Insurance
2.  To benefit politicians and lobbyists connected to #1
3.  To destroy the private, competitive market so that 1 & 2 can profit from nationalized, single payer insurance

None of this has anything to do with actually providing health care services.  It's just a transfer pricing mechanism to get more money from working people.


----------



## RKMBrown (Sep 14, 2013)

The mantra of the libtards is to provide "solutions" to problems.  If there are no problems, create one.  Our only choice is to run libtards out of town on a rail.  Unfortunately there are a lot of libtards.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 14, 2013)

Brownie......you sure are talking tough today. Been watching some movies?

You and your militia will do just about nothing.....except sit at that 'putter and whine. 

Militia! 

You are funny.


----------



## peach174 (Sep 14, 2013)

Foxfyre said:


> Obamacare is shaping up to be one of the worst economic boondoggles in the nation's history.  The OP reflects the situation of many of our neighbors and other friends and family.  Companies are scrambling to downsize to avoid the most onerous requirements of Obamacare that they cannot afford, most especially in this crappy economy.  So people who once were enjoying a good income are now scrambling and having to hunt for second jobs just to make ends somewhat meet.  And second jobs are difficult to come by thanks to an incompetent administration and congress.
> 
> I was just reading today that insurance premiums in Wisconsin are rising a whopping 125% and nobody has seen their premiums decreased which was one of the selling points of Obamacare in the first place.  Obamacare was supposed to make healthcare more affordable, yes?  It certaily has been a miserable failure in that regard.
> 
> ...




Denial is a very powerful thing.
It is almost if down right impossible to reason with deniers.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Sep 14, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Mr Clean said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



This makes no sense. 

Taking our country back from what, or whom? 

Our country hasnt been taken anywhere  its right here, right now - exactly as the Framers intended.  

The only taking back  the reactionary TPM seeks is to a time when African-Americans were slaves, women were treated as property, and citizens lived to the ripe old age of 40.


----------



## RKMBrown (Sep 14, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Brownie......you sure are talking tough today. Been watching some movies?
> 
> You and your militia will do just about nothing.....except sit at that 'putter and whine.
> 
> ...



You're funny too.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 14, 2013)

Some of you need to read this book. 

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Health-Care-Reform-Necessary-Works/dp/0809053977/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1379182141&sr=1-1&keywords=Obamacare+comic]Health Care Reform: What It Is, Why It&#39;s Necessary, How It Works: Jonathan Gruber, Nathan Schreiber: 9780809053971: Amazon.com: Books[/ame]

Or....at least read some of what this guy has to say.


MIT Economics : Jonathan Gruber


The misinformation that you have accepted as fact is extensive.


----------



## RKMBrown (Sep 14, 2013)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Mr Clean said:
> ...



It's a phrase, not unlike change, and forward, and progress.


----------



## Amelia (Sep 14, 2013)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Mr Clean said:
> ...





From whom or what did Howard Dean, Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, Chuck Schumer, James Carville, Paul Begala, Katrina vanden Heuvel, etc. feel a need to take the country  before liberals decided it was horrible to use the phrase "take our country back"?


----------



## Bfgrn (Sep 14, 2013)

Foxfyre said:


> Obamacare is shaping up to be one of the worst economic boondoggles in the nation's history.  The OP reflects the situation of many of our neighbors and other friends and family.  Companies are scrambling to downsize to avoid the most onerous requirements of Obamacare that they cannot afford, most especially in this crappy economy.  So people who once were enjoying a good income are now scrambling and having to hunt for second jobs just to make ends somewhat meet.  And second jobs are difficult to come by thanks to an incompetent administration and congress.
> 
> I was just reading today that insurance premiums in Wisconsin are rising a whopping 125% and nobody has seen their premiums decreased which was one of the selling points of Obamacare in the first place.  Obamacare was supposed to make healthcare more affordable, yes?  It certaily has been a miserable failure in that regard.
> 
> ...



Obamacare is the manifestation of the conservative approach to health care...right down to the individual mandate. It is 'free market' health care...


----------



## Amelia (Sep 14, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Some of you need to read this book.
> 
> Health Care Reform: What It Is, Why It's Necessary, How It Works: Jonathan Gruber, Nathan Schreiber: 9780809053971: Amazon.com: Books
> 
> ...




Yeah, that's going to help 2ndAmendment.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 14, 2013)

Amelia said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > Some of you need to read this book.
> ...



I guess that is a passive aggressive way to tell me that I am off topic? 

This thread is not about helping 2A.  He started it as a slam on Obamacare. Unfortunately, he had to make some shit up to try and trump up his case. 

And....oddly.....reading the material suggested will help him. It will explain what his options for affordable health care are. Good stuff.


----------



## Snookie (Sep 14, 2013)

Foxfyre said:


> Obamacare is shaping up to be one of the worst economic boondoggles in the nation's history.  The OP reflects the situation of many of our neighbors and other friends and family.  Companies are scrambling to downsize to avoid the most onerous requirements of Obamacare that they cannot afford, most especially in this crappy economy.  So people who once were enjoying a good income are now scrambling and having to hunt for second jobs just to make ends somewhat meet.  And second jobs are difficult to come by thanks to an incompetent administration and congress.
> 
> I was just reading today that insurance premiums in Wisconsin are rising a whopping 125% and nobody has seen their premiums decreased which was one of the selling points of Obamacare in the first place.  Obamacare was supposed to make healthcare more affordable, yes?  It certaily has been a miserable failure in that regard.
> 
> ...


For years health care costs have risen even faster than oil prices.

Finally Obama has done something instead of pandering to the health care monopolists.

The program has not fully been implemented yet.

Don't count your chickens until they are hatched.

I am sure that Obama will compromise if anything needs fixed, unlike the obstructionist republicans who rely on fear tactics and offer no clear solutions except the same old, same old, status quo.


----------



## Foxfyre (Sep 14, 2013)

And yet again so many our liberal friends demonstrate that they are absolutely incapable of focusing on a concept or debating a topic.  In lieu of that they reliably 'blame Bush" (or some other Republican or Republicans), change the subject, divert the focus, and/or throw in sufficient non sequiturs, straw men, and red herrings to derail the thread.

And sadly, those on the right continue to take the bait.

It isn't that I fault those who have their own agenda and are determined to destroy the intent of the Constitutional and return this nation to a socialist 'progressive' concept with a totally authoritarian government.  They are who they are and they are fairly successful at what they do.

I do deplore that so many of my friends on the right take the bait they dangle out there, though, and play right into their scheme of thread diversion and derailment.  I fear there are now so many in that category we may not be able to reverse the sad course we are on.


----------



## Snookie (Sep 14, 2013)

Foxfyre said:


> And yet again so many our liberal friends demonstrate that they are absolutely incapable of focusing on a concept or debating a topic.  In lieu of that they reliably 'blame Bush" (or some other Republican or Republicans), change the subject, divert the focus, and/or throw in sufficient non sequiturs, straw men, and red herrings to derail the thread.
> 
> And sadly, those on the right continue to take the bait.



Don't you just hate that?


----------



## TemplarKormac (Sep 14, 2013)

Bfgrn said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> > Obamacare is shaping up to be one of the worst economic boondoggles in the nation's history.  The OP reflects the situation of many of our neighbors and other friends and family.  Companies are scrambling to downsize to avoid the most onerous requirements of Obamacare that they cannot afford, most especially in this crappy economy.  So people who once were enjoying a good income are now scrambling and having to hunt for second jobs just to make ends somewhat meet.  And second jobs are difficult to come by thanks to an incompetent administration and congress.
> ...



No.

It is the Liberal misapplication of a healthcare plan only meant to run at a state level. What do you think would happen when they tried to implement it on a nationwide scale?


----------



## Amelia (Sep 14, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...




And will it explain his options for being able to make enough of a living that he doesn't have to find a second job and postpone finishing his education?


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 14, 2013)

Foxfyre said:


> And yet again so many our liberal friends demonstrate that they are absolutely incapable of focusing on a concept or debating a topic.  In lieu of that they reliably 'blame Bush" (or some other Republican or Republicans), change the subject, divert the focus, and/or throw in sufficient non sequiturs, straw men, and red herrings to derail the thread.
> 
> And sadly, those on the right continue to take the bait.
> 
> ...



Fox,

Your comments regarding Obamacares economic impact are bullshit. You want a reply to your bullshit.....I get that. But you write so much of it. Even those of us who think we might want to take you on point by point....just get bored halfway through. 

I expect that you know that is the case....otherwise you would try to be a little more concise and would attempt to focus a little. 

In my next post, I will start to respond to your post....but I doubt I will make it all the way through.


----------



## Snookie (Sep 14, 2013)

The republicans just need to buck up, accept personal responsibility and the rule of law, and accept the evident.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Sep 14, 2013)

Snookie said:


> The republicans just need to buck up, accept personal responsibility and the rule of law, and accept the evident.



Yeah, and you get to lecture us on personal responsibility. Your president has breached his oath of office on more than one occasion to keep his monstrosity of a healthcare plan from dying on it's feet.


----------



## Snookie (Sep 14, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> Snookie said:
> 
> 
> > The republicans just need to buck up, accept personal responsibility and the rule of law, and accept the evident.
> ...



How do you know?  Did you read his lips?


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 14, 2013)

Foxfyre said:


> Obamacare is shaping up to be one of the worst economic boondoggles in the nation's history.  The OP reflects the situation of many of our neighbors and other friends and family.  Companies are scrambling to downsize to avoid the most onerous requirements of Obamacare that they cannot afford, most especially in this crappy economy.  So people who once were enjoying a good income are now scrambling and having to hunt for second jobs just to make ends somewhat meet.  And second jobs are difficult to come by thanks to an incompetent administration and congress.
> 
> I was just reading today that insurance premiums in Wisconsin are rising a whopping 125% and nobody has seen their premiums decreased which was one of the selling points of Obamacare in the first place.  Obamacare was supposed to make healthcare more affordable, yes?  It certaily has been a miserable failure in that regard.
> 
> ...



First paragraph:

You make a claim that Obmcare is shaping up to be an economic boondoggle...and then go on to blame it for companies cutting hours. The fact is that companies have been cutting hours and suppressing wages for decades. Full time jobs are still being added in this nation. If what you say were true, that would not be the case. There would be only part time jobs. 

And.....the if a certain number of manpower is needed by a company...they will hire that amount of manpower. As has been demonstrated in this thread, the decision by a company to limit workers to 30 hours does not mean that they do not have to hire people for more thn 30 hours. If everyone does this, the employees will hav and easier time finding that second job, wouldn't they? 

Your second paragraph : You claim that you read somewhere today ( where? ) that the premiums in Wisconsin are going up 125%. I searched for that info.

Wisconsin individual insurance premiums to soar under Obamacare, says OCI « Watchdog.org

That number does not take into account the subsidies that people will get...nor does it count for differences in helth care plans. The numbers cited are stats taken out of context for effect. 

You also state that no one has seen decreased premiums. As if the law has been implemented. Nice one. 

Your third paragraph:  Undocumented hyperbole with a personal anecdote. Shall I counter with my own? Would me telling you what my wife, a nurse, thinks about Obamcare, have an impact on your opinion?

Fifth: Unions have not been permitted to opt out of Obamacare. 

Sixth: Our unemployment problems are not due to Obamacare...but to an economic recession. Good one!

Seventh.  States who have opted out of Medicare expansion are doing so out of their own volition.  It is refuckingmarkably stupid. Not to be blamed on the law.

And...the your "best analysis" of 30 million uninsured? Where does that come from. Have you a breakdown of who those 30 million are and the reasons why they are to remain uninsured? 

That's it. I can't take it any more. All bullshit.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Sep 14, 2013)

Snookie said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > Snookie said:
> ...



What are you talking about? Negged for being stupid. 

Did Obama Flout the Law by Delaying Obamacare? | The Fiscal Times

Yet Another White House Obamacare Delay: Out-Of-Pocket Caps Waived Until 2015 - Forbes


----------



## Bfgrn (Sep 14, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > Foxfyre said:
> ...



Translation: Republicans wanted to create a race to the bottom where a state can become a haven for non regulations and offer HIINO...

Health insurance in name only.


----------



## Bfgrn (Sep 14, 2013)

25 Republicans Who Supported Obamacare Before Obama

1. Rick Santorum? The Allentown Morning Call reported several times in 1994 that Santorum wanted to "require individuals to buy health insurance rather than forcing employers to pay for benefits." Santorum denies allegations that he ever supported an individual mandate.

2. President George H.W. Bush: In 1991, Mark Pauly, an adviser to the first Bush, and now a conservative health economist, came up with a Heritage-style health care proposal for the president as an alternative to the employer-based mandate that Democrats were pushing at the time.

3. Former Vice President Dan Quayle: He was down with the Heritage idea too.

4. Mitt Romney: Romneycare was Romney's signature legislative achievement as governor of Massachusetts, and it served as a model for Obamacare. During the 2012 campaign, the presidential contender had trouble deciding what his position was on Obamacare, and he deflected the blame for having conceived a similar plan; at one debate he noted that "we got the idea of an individual mandatefrom [Newt Gingrich]."

5. Newt Gingrich: Though he reversed his position in May 2011, Gingrich had been a big supporter of the individual mandate since his early days in the House. In 1992 and 1993, when Republicans were looking for alternatives to Hillary Clinton's health care plan, many, including then-House minority whip Gingrich, backed the Heritage idea. (Gingrich has said that most conservatives supported an individual mandate for health insurance at the time.)

Twenty of his fellow GOPers cosponsored a 1993 health care bill which included an individual mandate and vouchers for poor people. As health scholar Avik Roy wrote at Forbes in 2012, "Given that there were 43 Republicans in the Senate of the 103rd Congress, these 20 comprised nearly half of the Republican Senate Caucus at that time." Here are those lawmakers:

6. Sen. Bob Dole (R-Kansas)

7. Sen. John Chafee (R-R.I.)

8. Sen. Robert Bennet (R-Utah)

9. Sen. Christopher Bond (R-Mo.)

10. Sen. George Brown (R-Colo.)

11. Sen. John Danforth (R-Mo.)

12. Sen. Pete Domenici (R-N.M.)

13. Sen. David Durenberger (R-Minn.)

14. Sen. Duncan Faircloth (R-N.C.)

15. Sen. William Cohen (R-Maine)

16. Sen. Slade Gorton (R-Wash.)

17. Sen. Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa)

18. Sen. Mark Hatfield (R-Ore.)

19. Sen. Nancy Kassebaum (R-Kansas)

20. Sen. Dick Lugar (R-Ind.)

21. Sen. Alan Simpson (R-Wyo.)

22. Sen. Arlen Specter (R-Pa.)

23. Sen. Ted Stevens (R-Alaska)

24. Sen. John Warner (R-Va.)

25. Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-Utah)

more


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## TemplarKormac (Sep 14, 2013)

Bfgrn said:


> 25 Republicans Who Supported Obamacare Before Obama
> 
> 1. Rick Santorum? The Allentown Morning Call reported several times in 1994 that Santorum wanted to "require individuals to buy health insurance rather than forcing employers to pay for benefits." Santorum denies allegations that he ever supported an individual mandate.
> 
> ...



LOOL.

Trying to blame the failure of this law on Republicans? Is it so bad that you can't as   [MENTION=42294]Snookie[/MENTION]: put "accept personal responsibility" for it?


----------



## TemplarKormac (Sep 14, 2013)

Bfgrn said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > Bfgrn said:
> ...



Wow. I smell bullshit. 

It was rather successful in Massachusetts.



> The states  healthcare reform has no serious opposition. Individuals and businesses, by a large margin, agree that the program may not be perfect, but it has been successful as measured by the people, including many middle income families, who would not be able to afford health insurance otherwise.



If ObamaCare Is So Bad, How Does RomneyCare Survive? - Forbes


----------



## boedicca (Sep 14, 2013)

Bfgrn said:


> 25 Republicans Who Supported Obamacare Before Obama
> 
> 1. Rick Santorum? The Allentown Morning Call reported several times in 1994 that Santorum wanted to "require individuals to buy health insurance rather than forcing employers to pay for benefits." Santorum denies allegations that he ever supported an individual mandate.
> 
> ...





None of the things described in your post is remotely like the Obamanation that the unread ObamaCare bill ended up being.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 14, 2013)

boedicca said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > 25 Republicans Who Supported Obamacare Before Obama
> ...



It is a law. A bill is something that has yet to become law.


----------



## jasonnfree (Sep 14, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > 25 Republicans Who Supported Obamacare Before Obama
> ...



Actually, if it weren't for republicans we would have a national health care system like every other first world country.   It was advanced by Truman after ww2 and guess who shot it down?  Taft and republicans.  They called it socialism, although the republican politicians  of those days didn't mind getting socialist health care same as the ryans and cantors and today don't mind getting their socialist health care.  Remember when that tea bag anti socialist health care congressman from Maryland was angered when he found out his taxpayer provided health care wouldn't kick in immediately after he won his election?


Entitled Tea Party Jagoff Wants Government-Run Health Care Immediately Upon Entry to Congress | FDL News Desk


----------



## TemplarKormac (Sep 14, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> > Bfgrn said:
> ...



Reading comprehension is something that one possesses in order to understand written words. You apparently lack it.

If you missed the last four words of her post, I'm sorry for you.

"bill *ended up being*"


----------



## boedicca (Sep 14, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> > Bfgrn said:
> ...




The content of ObamaCare is a monstrosity compared to the content of the others.

It's an unworkable mess, and you morons are still in denial.  To date, there have been 19 deferrals of various part of it, thousands of waivers, a doubling of the cost estimate while forecasting that 31M people will remain uninsured, an inability to verify eligibility, destruction of full time job creation, reduction of many workers' hours below 30 per week...

Heckuva job, Barry!


----------



## jasonnfree (Sep 14, 2013)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Mr Clean said:
> ...



They want to take back their country and are armed and in militias.   Maybe they mean arm chair militias?


----------



## Foxfyre (Sep 14, 2013)

It is important to note that the short essay posted at the Heritage Foundation site that Mother Jones and Bfgn dishonestly presented as "The Heritage Foundation's" position leads with this disclaimer:

"NOTE:  Nothing written here is to be construed as necessarily reflecting the views of the Heritage Foundation or as an attempt to aid or hinder the passage of any bill before Congress."

However the very same piece has heavy emphasis on what will NOT work to fix the USA's ailing healthcare system:
1.  Government-Funded Systems won't work -   Does THAT sound like Obamacare?
2.  Employer Mandates won't work - Does THAT sound like Obamacare?

What it DID recommend was to give a tax credit to people for their healthcare costs. - Does THAT sound like Obamacare?

What it DID recommend that given the tax credit option, people would pay for routine medical care and prescriptions--annual physicals, emergency room visits, treatment for minor injuries, vaccinations, etc.--out of pocket and would quickly become conscious as to the cost of these things.  Which would result in shopping for better deals which would provide incentive for the free market to bring down costs.  Does THAT sound like Obamacare?

What it DID recommend is that all be required to have at least catastrophic healthcare coverage with some help provided to the very few people who wouldn't be able to afford that.  The cost would be offset by the reduced burden on the insurance companies due to people paying the every day costs out of pocket.
http://healthcarereform.procon.org/..._affordable_health_care_for_all_americans.pdf

This is the solution I have seen to the problem all along.  The states could set insurance regulations requiring insurance companies to accept all reasonable risks in order to receive a license to do business in the state, just as they do now for other types of insurance.  And the states could set up assigned risk pools for the very hard to ensure just as they do for difficult to insure drivers or work comp.

There are so many excellent ways to help the healthcare system be more affordable and customer friendly.  It is tragic that we have a government who refuses to utilize a single policy that would help and instead has adopted the horrendous train wreck they demand that we all endure.

Personally I think the Heritage Foundation essay would be an excellent place to begin the debate.  And it is debate that the Heritage Foundation encourages when it offers us a well thought out and competent piece such as that.


----------



## Bfgrn (Sep 14, 2013)

boedicca said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > boedicca said:
> ...



Accusations with things like "19 deferrals of various part of it, thousands of waivers, a doubling of the cost estimate" require LINKS...


----------



## Snookie (Sep 14, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> Snookie said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...



Two right wing websites.  Yeah, sure.  I'll neg you back, potty mouth.


----------



## EriktheRed (Sep 14, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > 25 Republicans Who Supported Obamacare Before Obama
> ...



Listing Republicans who supported supported similar plans to the ACA is "trying to blame the failure of this law on Republicans"?


----------



## Foxfyre (Sep 14, 2013)

Good point Eric.  But even if they try to hang the Republicans, I can guess not a single person embracing that list read the Heritage Foundation essay that I linked and that roughly reflects the views of 99% of Republicans who have suggested any kind of mandate related to health care.

And the Heritage Foundation plan could not be any further from Obamacare if somebody had intentionally written something to be 180 degrees opposite of Obamacare.

But intellectual honesty isn't strong among the automatic Republican bashers.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 14, 2013)

Foxfyre said:


> Good point Eric.  But even if they try to hang the Republicans, I can guess not a single person embracing that list read the Heritage Foundation essay that I linked and that roughly reflects the views of 99% of Republicans who have suggested any kind of mandate related to health care.
> 
> And the Heritage Foundation plan could not be any further from Obamacare if somebody had intentionally written something to be 180 degrees opposite of Obamacare.
> 
> But intellectual honesty isn't strong among the automatic Republican bashers.



Question marks are cool


----------



## MeBelle (Sep 14, 2013)

Bfgrn said:


> 25 Republicans Who Supported Obamacare Before Obama
> 
> 1. Rick Santorum
> 2. President George H.W. Bush: In 1991,
> ...



Out of this group only three remain in office.
And 1992 was 20 years ago.

Even Clinton * who actually worked on a health care bill * for 1 and 1/2 years instead of trying to ram it down the country's throat in 14 months, lost with a Dem Congress.

So, do we get to say 

*Dems were against Obamacare before they were for it?*


----------



## MeBelle (Sep 14, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Some of you need to read this book.
> 
> Health Care Reform: What It Is, Why It's Necessary, How It Works: Jonathan Gruber, Nathan Schreiber: 9780809053971: Amazon.com: Books
> 
> ...




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Gruber_(economist)
During 2009-2010 he served as a technical consultant to the Obama Administration and worked with both the Administration and Congress to help craft the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.


Jonathan Gruber wrote:
The Cost and Coverage Impact of the President?s Health Insurance Budget Proposals ? Center on Budget and Policy Priorities

Whoops!

Jonathan Gruber wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/04/opinion/04gruber.html?_r=0

Darn....


----------



## MeBelle (Sep 15, 2013)

Snookie said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > Snookie said:
> ...



ObamaCare employer mandate delayed until after 2014 midterms - The Hill's Healthwatch

Fun reading here:
http://www.dol.gov/ebsa/faqs/faq-aca12.html

Could only find left wing Opinion pieces for the second portion but seriously does anyone think the 'left wing' would even dare ask if the maneuver was illlegal? 

Some links in here:
On the health-care mandate, Obama reaches beyond the law - The Washington Post

Legal expert says Obama?s delay of mandate ?blatantly illegal? - BizPac Review

Yes, Delaying Obamacare?s Employer Mandate Is Illegal | Cato @ Liberty


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 15, 2013)

MeBelle60 said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > Some of you need to read this book.
> ...



Excellent post. 

The second link you provided was written in 2006. Psssst........different POTUS. 

The third one was written in 2008.....and is not critical of Obamacare.

I love it when people do not read their own links. It brings me such joy. 

Oops!


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## eagle1462010 (Sep 15, 2013)

Riddle me this.....................

Which party created a law with so many loop holes that it looks like Swiss cheese, and then state it's not their fault when businesses and Americans use these loop holes......................

Which party created a law that didn't give across the board credits for all Americans but PANDERED only to a specific group of people, while targeting the rest..................

Which party gave the option to the States to not set up exchanges, so the Feds would take over these States and run the exchanges only to say we need another year................

Which party created a law where all businesses would have to get specific hardware to communicate across the U.S. to the Feds in order to comply with the law, and it's so broken they need another year to try and implement it...............

Which party created a law that requires every citizen to put their private information into a Federal Database.................

Which party created a law that made their own supporters, aka the Unions, go bat shit crazy because it is damaging them so much because of an inept law..........................

I know which party that is, do you...............................


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 15, 2013)

It is customary to follow up the directive "Riddle me this"..........with a riddle.


----------



## eagle1462010 (Sep 15, 2013)

The GOP offered plans.  These plans were totally ignored by the Dems.

The GOP warned the Dems that the way they wrote the bill would cause massive issues in the very areas that are going to shit right now.

All ignored.

They proposed legislation that would have given Tax Credits to ALL AMERICANS irregardless of Status.

They proposed no rule for time worked to get these credits.  aka You could work 5 hours and still get the credits for insurance and businesses were not given loop holes, so the 30 hour work week wouldn't be an issue.

They proposed Subsidies to target HIGH COST MEDICINE which drive the costs for all up.  Kind of like a Wind Pool in Hurricane areas to lower these costs.

They proposed exchanges that could cross state lines.  Just like the Unions do already so they can pool large groups of people to get lower rates.  But alas that isn't worthy of the non Union workers.

They proposed tort reform, which would stop the ambulance Chasers from driving up Malpractice Insurance.

Riddle me this...............................

Would the Unions be crying now had some of this been passed instead...........................

As ALL OF THEM WOULD HAVE GOTTEN AN INSURANCE TAX CREDIT, irregardless of the hours they work................................Yeah, that's right.  They would have gotten a pre-tax voucher that would have made their insurance cheaper than it already is now.

Finally, THE LAW WOULD HAVE BEEN EQUAL TO ALL.  Kinda like justice for all.  No one, except those in poverty would have gotten any special consideration and all would have gotten a way to reduce their costs.

But alas, THE STATIST HAD TO HAVE THEIR WAY, and the law is a POS.


----------



## eagle1462010 (Sep 15, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> It is customary to follow up the directive "Riddle me this"..........with a riddle.



It is just a way of expressing by point.  It's not a riddle.  It's simply facts that your Dem party wrote a LAW FROM HELL.

Easier for you..............


----------



## JoeB131 (Sep 15, 2013)

eagle1462010 said:


> The GOP offered plans.  These plans were totally ignored by the Dems.
> 
> The GOP warned the Dems that the way they wrote the bill would cause massive issues in the very areas that are going to shit right now.
> 
> ...



Because they were all kind of stupid.  

Here's an idea.  Let's just say, anyone who doesn't get insurance can sign up for a public option.  

Anyone who doesn't like his insurance can sign up for a public option, and his employer has to give his share of what they'd pay to Blue Cross to that option.  

Easy-peasy. 

The real problem with ObamaCare is that it tried to hard to protect an already failing system of employer insurance.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 15, 2013)

If you are not going to post a riddle, you ought to stop saying that you are going to post a riddle.


----------



## eagle1462010 (Sep 15, 2013)

JoeB131 said:


> eagle1462010 said:
> 
> 
> > The GOP offered plans.  These plans were totally ignored by the Dems.
> ...



Which is the ultimate goal of you and the Dems.  Which turns all Medical Care over to Government control.

Which is why Statist like you want it.........................

It would give the Gov't control over a third of the GDP.  It would force millions out of the work force except those who get picked to work for the Gov't.

Right now the Gov't is trying to hire 200,000 workers to implement this plan.


----------



## eagle1462010 (Sep 15, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> If you are not going to post a riddle, you ought to stop saying that you are going to post a riddle.



Riddle me this.............................

If I decide to post using riddle me this and people don't like it can they just ignore it and move on.

It also gives you something to complain about other than the fact the ACA is a POS law.

So I'm sure your happy about it, if not, who cares.


----------



## eagle1462010 (Sep 15, 2013)

NAHU - Consumer Information - Consumer Guide To High-Risk Health Insurance Pools

High risk pools are already in many states.  While a lot are not in these pools, legislation was suggested to increase the availability of these pools and subsidize them to a greater extent to keep higher cost Medical out of the main insurance areas.

aka The higher cost areas out to drive down cost for those without high maintenance as it is designated in the ACA.


----------



## eagle1462010 (Sep 15, 2013)

The IRS Wants to Give Tax Credits for Health Insurance Purchases Beyond Those Provided for in the ACA | The Volokh ConspiracyThe Volokh Conspiracy

ACA Section 1401 provides that eligible taxpayers may receive income tax credits for purchase of insurance &#8220;through an Exchange established by the State under Section 1311.&#8221; Section 1311 calls upon states to establish health insurance exchanges. It does not provide for the federal government to create health care exchanges. Rather, a separate provision of the act, Section 1321, provides that if a state does not &#8220;elect&#8221; to create an exchange that meets federal requirements, the federal government shall then &#8220;establish and operate&#8221; an exchange. Thus, under a plain reading of the text, the ACA only provides for tax credits for state-run exchanges, and if states fail to create exchanges, there are no tax credits for insurance bought on a federally run exchange.

*comment*

The idiots were too stupid to ad a line to say the citizens would receive the tax credit in the Federal Exchanges..............................

To the laws credit, it is clear that all would get the credit, but it shows the Dems don't even know how to proof read their law.

Who forgot to ad the line............................You can't fix Stupid.


----------



## JoeB131 (Sep 15, 2013)

eagle1462010 said:


> [
> 
> Which is the ultimate goal of you and the Dems.  Which turns all Medical Care over to Government control.
> 
> ...



A couple problems with your statement. 

The first is, a single payer system does eliminate a lot of positions, such as the three clerks your doctor's office needs to plod through insurance programs and fight with insurance companies.   These folks add NOTHING to the quality of health care.  They make it more expensive.  Not sure why you would be sad to see them gone. 

Second, every other industrialized country has single payer, they are just as free as we are if not more so, they get better results and they spend less.  As opposed to the 1/6th of GDP we spend on health care, they spend 1/10 or less.  

Third, a private sector plan just doesn't work.  Private insurance would never pick up most of the people covered by Medicare or Medicaid or the VA.   They only really want healthy working folks whole pay premiums and hopefully won't get sick. Not seeing how that's a good deal for anyone but the insurance companies.


----------



## JoeB131 (Sep 15, 2013)

Pauli007001 said:


> [
> 
> The problem with obamacare is that politicians should run politics, doctors should run healthcare.
> 
> ...



You mean Dr. Ben Crackpot?  

Point is, Doctors aren't running health care now. Insurance companies are.  I'd rather have M.D.'s making the decisions, not MBA's.


----------



## mudwhistle (Sep 15, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> I just received a letter from my job stating that no one will be working more than 30 hours a week.
> 
> I normally worked 48-52 hours per week generating 10 hours of regular play, and 8-12 hours of overtime time. Each hour I work averages an ADDITIONAL $ 11.25 in tips.
> 
> ...



Obama ruined your life on purpose. He wants to get you on the public dole so you'll become a scared Democrat voter. Scared that the GOP will take away your free money.


----------



## eagle1462010 (Sep 15, 2013)

Labor Leader: Obamacare 'Needs To Be Repealed' If Union Demands Aren't Met - Forbes

This week, in Los Angeles, leaders of the nation&#8217;s labor union movement gathered together for the AFL-CIO&#8217;s annual convention. Along with the usual sessions on &#8216;political action,&#8217; &#8216;solidarity&#8217; and the like, union leaders shared their concerns about the impact of Obamacare on union-sponsored health insurance plans. *Terence O&#8217;Sullivan, president of the Laborers&#8217; International Union of North America, said, &#8220;If the Affordable Care Act is not fixed, and it destroys the health and welfare funds that we have fought for and stand for, then I believe it needs to be repealed.&#8221;*


----------



## eagle1462010 (Sep 15, 2013)

JoeB131 said:


> eagle1462010 said:
> 
> 
> > [
> ...



And yet you pander to the ACA saying it's a good law.

As it turns Americans into Part Time Employees because it is written by a bunch of dolts who have forgotten what it means to write a law that is ACROSS THE BOARD.  Equal to all citizens.

They had to pander to the Welfare State, so everyone else has to pay for this Free shit.  Then you applaud the low rates to the Poverty Levels.

Why don't you simply call it another Welfare Program...........


----------



## Bfgrn (Sep 15, 2013)

eagle1462010 said:


> *The GOP offered plans.  These plans were totally ignored by the Dems.*
> 
> The GOP warned the Dems that the way they wrote the bill would cause massive issues in the very areas that are going to shit right now.
> 
> ...



Riddle me THIS...

Republicans were well aware that health care reform was paramount to repairing our economy and protecting the financial security of American families. McCain, and Republicans ALSO ran on promising health care reforms.

But Republicans made a conscious and collective decision to block and undermine any reform. Because it would be seen as a success for our President.

David Frum, the Republican and former economic speechwriter for George W. Bush was fired by the American Enterprise Institute for writing this op-ed, a right wing think tank whose 'scholars' ironically were ordered not to speak to the media on the subject of health care reform, because they agreed with too much of what Obama was trying to do.

Waterloo
by David Frum

*At the beginning of this process we made a strategic decision*: unlike, say, Democrats in 2001 when President Bush proposed his first tax cut, *we would make no deal with the administration. No negotiations, no compromise, nothing. We were going for all the marbles. This would be Obamas Waterloo  just as healthcare was Clintons in 1994.
*
This time, when we went for all the marbles, we ended with none.

Could a deal have been reached? Who knows? But we do know that the gap between this plan and traditional Republican ideas is not very big. *The Obama plan* has a broad family *resemblance to Mitt Romneys Massachusetts plan. It builds on ideas developed at the Heritage Foundation in the early 1990s that formed the basis for Republican counter-proposals to Clintoncare in 1993-1994.*

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The final irony:
The health care bill Obama and Democrats passed was not the reform liberals and progressives sought. It was and IS a carbon copy of the Republican bills proposed by Senator John Chafee, (R-R.I) and Senate Minority Leader Bob Dole in the early 1990's. Including the conservative idea...the individual mandate.


----------



## eagle1462010 (Sep 15, 2013)

Bfgrn said:


> eagle1462010 said:
> 
> 
> > *The GOP offered plans.  These plans were totally ignored by the Dems.*
> ...



And the opposing solution didn't include the mandate, but made it Stupid not to buy Insurance as the payment would be less to get insurance than the penalty for not getting insurance.  

You will also forget that Bush passed prescription drug laws to help the elderly.  Yet back then the counter proposal was TWICE THE PRICE BY THE DEMS.  They helped create Medicare Advantage programs for the elderly which is gone now under the ACA.  

You can't pull 70 BILLION a year off the table for the elderly and NOT HURT THEM.  

Face it.  Your law put GRANDMA AND GRANDPA UNDER THE BUS.


----------



## Bfgrn (Sep 15, 2013)

eagle1462010 said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > eagle1462010 said:
> ...



Links???

And you are continuing to IGNORE that FACT Republicans made a conscious and collective decision to block and undermine any reform. WHY? Because it would benefit We, the People? Hell no! Because Republicans thought it would benefit their PARTY.


----------



## eagle1462010 (Sep 15, 2013)

Bfgrn said:


> eagle1462010 said:
> 
> 
> > Bfgrn said:
> ...



Is it benefiting We the People.............

I've got news for you, even the Unions are turning against you.

Paul Ryan proposed some of the deals.  Don't go into the Medicare BS on that one either as I didn't agree then or now with that side of the equation.  But I'm not going to humor you with the links as I've been posting the dang things in a lot of threads.  Hell It might already be in this one.  

Bottom line the ACA is a fucking disaster.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 15, 2013)

mudwhistle said:


> Obama ruined your life on purpose. He wants to get you on the public dole so you'll become a scared Democrat voter. Scared that the GOP will take away your free money.



I would like to know if any other nutters agree with this assessment. I know many of you have played around with a similar train of thought....but this example is special in it's simplistic lameness. 

Wholehearted agreement, anyone?


----------



## thanatos144 (Sep 15, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> mudwhistle said:
> 
> 
> > Obama ruined your life on purpose. He wants to get you on the public dole so you'll become a scared Democrat voter. Scared that the GOP will take away your free money.
> ...



I can agree your a sheep with no brain


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## LoneLaugher (Sep 15, 2013)

thanatos144 said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > mudwhistle said:
> ...



I see you are in Stuart. I have some customers there. Wanna meet for lunch sometime?


----------



## daws101 (Sep 15, 2013)

Pauli007001 said:


> daws101 said:
> 
> 
> > thanatos144 said:
> ...


more ignorance do you make this shit up yourself or do you get help?


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## thanatos144 (Sep 15, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> thanatos144 said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



why do you have costumers here?


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## LoneLaugher (Sep 15, 2013)

thanatos144 said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > thanatos144 said:
> ...



Because that is where they are.


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## Snookie (Sep 15, 2013)

Pauli007001 said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > eagle1462010 said:
> ...



Yeah health care costs kept getting cheaper and cheaper before obama care.


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## Snookie (Sep 15, 2013)

thanatos144 said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > thanatos144 said:
> ...



I'll go if you will bring Pinwheels.


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## boedicca (Sep 15, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> thanatos144 said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...




What kind of costumes do they make for you?


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## Synthaholic (Sep 15, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> I just received a letter from my job stating that no one will be working more than 30 hours a week.
> 
> I normally worked 48-52 hours per week generating 10 hours of regular play, and 8-12 hours of overtime time. Each hour I work averages an ADDITIONAL $ 11.25 in tips.
> 
> ...


There is not a doubt in my mind that you are lying.


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## LoneLaugher (Sep 15, 2013)

boedicca said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > thanatos144 said:
> ...



You aiming for a joke? You missed.


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## Synthaholic (Sep 15, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...


You must have really wiped the floor with her ample ass in one of these threads, the way she pecks at you like some kind of retarded chicken.


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## Synthaholic (Sep 15, 2013)

Why doesn't the OP have any venom for his employer?


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## daws101 (Sep 15, 2013)

Synthaholic said:


> Why doesn't the OP have any venom for his employer?


good question!


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## daws101 (Sep 15, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...


I don't know ....in  the right context ....


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Sep 15, 2013)

Pauli007001 said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > eagle1462010 said:
> ...



The only problem you and others on the right have with the ACA is it was signed into law by a democratic president you despise solely because hes a democrat. 

Conservatives whine about the ACA but offer nothing to replace it. 

If its such a terrible law then you should have no problem developing an alternate plan to ensure all Americans are insured. 

And doing nothing, as most on the right advocate, is no solution.


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Sep 15, 2013)

Synthaholic said:


> Why doesn't the OP have any venom for his employer?



Because employers are always right.


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## LoneLaugher (Sep 15, 2013)

Synthaholic said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > boedicca said:
> ...



She is in love. I'm used to it.

On second read.....she actually made a good joke, given the misspelled word from theanatos. I missed it the first time. I will now rep my admirer.


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## Bfgrn (Sep 15, 2013)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > Why doesn't the OP have any venom for his employer?
> ...



The conversation we should be having is how employers are exploiting the ACA to LOWER the pay of their employees. Health insurance from an employer is paid for by the employees. It is merely a deferred wage.


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## Snookie (Sep 15, 2013)

Bfgrn said:


> C_Clayton_Jones said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...



On topic?  Wow, what a concept for here.


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## TemplarKormac (Sep 15, 2013)

Snookie said:


> Pauli007001 said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...



They didn't get cheaper AFTER Obamacare either.


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## mudwhistle (Sep 15, 2013)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Pauli007001 said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...



At this point 'nothing' is much better than this piece of shit. 

The purpose of the bill was to lower health care costs. $2500 a piece. Instead it raises costs.
The purpose of the bill was to give coverage to the uninsured. It doesn't cover everyone. Matter of fact it punishes most including those with serious illnesses. 
The purpose of the bill was to help Americans but instead it is costing them in income and in coverage.


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## LoneLaugher (Sep 15, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> Snookie said:
> 
> 
> > Pauli007001 said:
> ...



Templar Carnac! Superprotector of the future! 

Yo......genius......it ain't been instituted yet. Patience, Templar, patience.


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## LoneLaugher (Sep 15, 2013)

mudwhistle said:


> C_Clayton_Jones said:
> 
> 
> > Pauli007001 said:
> ...



Not a bill. It is a law. Go ahead.....you can say it. It is the law if the land.


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Sep 15, 2013)

eagle1462010 said:


> The GOP offered plans.  These plans were totally ignored by the Dems.
> 
> The GOP warned the Dems that the way they wrote the bill would cause massive issues in the very areas that are going to shit right now.
> 
> ...



None of these &#8216;proposals&#8217; would have ensured that every American have access to health insurance and healthcare. 

Just lowering the cost of health insurance does nothing to help those who can&#8217;t afford insurance, regardless how &#8216;inexpensive.&#8217; 

And there&#8217;s no evidence that tax credits, exchanges, and tort &#8216;reform&#8217; would even help to lower costs, particularly tort &#8216;reform.&#8217;  

The partisan irony of this is that the ACA *is a republican plan*, rejected by the right for purely political reasons. 

So, indeed, there were no proposals from republicans to address the need for comprehensive health insurance coverage.


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## Vandalshandle (Sep 15, 2013)

In the USA, Group health insures require employers to pay at least 50% of the single health insurance premium, which has cost Ford Motor Company more than they pay for steel, per car, since 1979. This, of course, is added to the cost of the car. This puts them at a trememndous disadvantage to competitors in places like Japan, where employers do not pay for any of the employees' health care:

Health care system in Japan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Naturally, Ford looks for opportunities to outsource all manufacturing jobs to countries where they do not have health care expenses. I live 35 miles from the Mexican border, and a train load of new Fords comes up the Santra Cruz River Valley every other night,  from where they were assembled in Mexico.

And this is just fine with Republicans, who believe that our present sytem should NOT be changed.


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## JoeB131 (Sep 15, 2013)

eagle1462010 said:


> [
> 
> And yet you pander to the ACA saying it's a good law.
> 
> ...



I think the ACA is a decent law, given we can't abolish big insurance all in one fell swoop and replace it with universal medicare, which is what we SHOULD do.  

But please take note of who is making their employees part time. It's the McDonalds, the Trader Joe's, the companies that were already paying too little and abusing too much.  

So shitty people will do shitty things no matter what the law is.


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## The2ndAmendment (Sep 15, 2013)

boedicca said:


> Wow. This thread is a Rorschach test which illuminates how much the leftoids Hate People.



Well said.


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## LoneLaugher (Sep 15, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> boedicca said:
> 
> 
> > Wow. This thread is a Rorschach test which illuminates how much the leftoids Hate People.
> ...



Not really. It was kind of awkward, actually.

Are you regretting the thread title yet? At the tender age of 23.....is your life ruined? 

Why not begin your ascendance toward being an honest person right now....and retract that dopey thread title?


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## MeBelle (Sep 15, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> MeBelle60 said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



You missed the gist of the links in my post. 

Your assumption I didn't read the links before I posted is ridiculous.

Oops!


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## LoneLaugher (Sep 15, 2013)

MeBelle60 said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > MeBelle60 said:
> ...



I missed the gist of "whoops" and "darn"? 

Damn....you really ARE complex. 

What was the gist? Neither one had anything in them to counter the gist of my links. Show me the light.


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## MeBelle (Sep 15, 2013)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> The only problem you and others on the right have with the ACA is it was signed into law by a democratic president you despise solely because hes a democrat.
> 
> Conservatives whine about the ACA* but offer nothing to replace it.*
> 
> ...



Tell that to Harry who lets bills gather dust on his desk rather than bring them to the Senate floor for a vote.
Why is Reid afraid to bring House bills to a vote?

Anyhow, looks like you're wrong.

Can GOP 'Replace' Obamacare? The RSC Has a Plan | 218


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## MeBelle (Sep 15, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> MeBelle60 said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...




Ummm "whoops" and "darn" are my comments, not links.

Your economist is biased. Republican/bad (2006 link)...Democrat/good per your own comment!



LoneLaugher said:


> The third one was written in 2008.....and *is not critical of Obamacare*.


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## LoneLaugher (Sep 15, 2013)

MeBelle60 said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > MeBelle60 said:
> ...



Failure to communicate. Boring as hell.


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## dblack (Sep 15, 2013)

JoeB131 said:


> eagle1462010 said:
> 
> 
> > [
> ...



But that's expressly NOT what ACA does. It takes the optional, and increasingly dysfunctional, habit of financing the bulk of our health care expenses through insurance and makes it a requirement. It cements big insurance in place via legal mandate. Even the wet dream of 'single payer' doesn't do away with insurance - it simply makes it that much bigger and that much more monolithic as a government run institution. 

ACA is the final battle between freedom and corporatism regarding health care.


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## dblack (Sep 15, 2013)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> > Why doesn't the OP have any venom for his employer?
> ...



Because employers didn't pass the stupid laws. They just follow them in the way that is the most profitable. If a rule encourages this kind of thing, something is wrong with the rule.





C_Clayton_Jones said:


> eagle1462010 said:
> 
> 
> > The GOP offered plans.  These plans were totally ignored by the Dems.
> ...



Right. Because that's a foolish goal.



> Just lowering the cost of health insurance does nothing to help those who can&#8217;t afford insurance, regardless how &#8216;inexpensive.&#8217;



What does this even mean?



> And there&#8217;s no evidence that tax credits, exchanges, and tort &#8216;reform&#8217; would even help to lower costs, particularly tort &#8216;reform.&#8217;



Agreed.



> The partisan irony of this is that the ACA *is a republican plan*, rejected by the right for purely political reasons.



So why in the world did Democrats pass it?



> So, indeed, there were no proposals from republicans to address the need for comprehensive health insurance coverage.



Yep. Republicans stunk the place up. No doubt about it. But that doesn't address the fact that ACA is a sellout and an embarrassing bait and switch. Democrats should be ashamed.


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## daws101 (Sep 16, 2013)

dblack said:


> C_Clayton_Jones said:
> 
> 
> > Synthaholic said:
> ...


the american camping association is embarrassing?


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## Snookie (Sep 16, 2013)

MeBelle60 said:


> C_Clayton_Jones said:
> 
> 
> > The only problem you and others on the right have with the ACA is it was signed into law by a democratic president you despise solely because hes a democrat.
> ...


Wishful thinking.  The republicans are to ideologically splintered to agree on anything.  They are worse than the Muslim religious  factions.


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## MeBelle (Sep 16, 2013)

Snookie said:


> MeBelle60 said:
> 
> 
> > C_Clayton_Jones said:
> ...



The challenge was to refute CCJ's claim, which I did.

Will it be allowed to come to fruition, who knows?


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## MeBelle (Sep 16, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> MeBelle60 said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



 

You shouldn't talk about yourself that way.


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## Foxfyre (Sep 16, 2013)

Dblack. . . .

C Clayton Jones had written


> And there&#8217;s no evidence that tax credits, exchanges, and tort &#8216;reform&#8217; would even help to lower costs, particularly tort &#8216;reform'



To which you replied


> Agreed.



Disclaime:  These two comments were excerpted from much longer posts offered by both of you.

Having worked with medical insurance claims, I would respectfully disagree.

There does need to be a limitation on the size and type of lawsuits that can be filed by opportunistic legal sharks.  Pharmaceuticals and the cost of various kinds of testing equipment have skyrocketed purely because if a new drug or procedure does any harm to the victim, these days they can almost always sue and receive damages.

We need laws protecting the pharmaceutical companies who do the R&D and provide a drug with the potential to help millions of sufferers but that contains side effects as all drugs do.  Yes, there should be adquate testing and yes, the government should review and approve the drug for sale and use.   And THEN, if somebody takes the drug and suffers a known side effect, they have no legal leg to stand on.  Only withholding known hazards from the public or other forms of dishonesty or gross negligence should be grounds for legal compensation.

It is positively obscene that you can't turn on your television these days without seeing an ad from some law firm fishing for a class action suit.  It is costing we the consumers billions in unnecessary costs while the plaintiffs in the suit collect pittances and the law firms collect mega millions.

And doctors and hospitals should be able to give medically accepted treatment to their patients and not have to order dozens of non-medically indicated tests and procedures to avoid being targeted for lawsuits.  That too is costing we consumer billions in the costs of the unnecessary tests and increased insurance premiums while lining the pockets of opportunistic attorneys and helping the patients little or not at all.

There has to be a better way short of denying patients just compensation when there is gross negligence and without restricting our unalienable rights.


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## Snookie (Sep 16, 2013)

Foxfyre said:


> Dblack. . . .
> 
> C Clayton Jones had written
> 
> ...



There is a health care monopoly here called Sentara.  If you want to sue them you have to get a lawyer from a place away from here.  The lawyers here are afraid of them because of their power.

Personal experience.


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## Bfgrn (Sep 16, 2013)

Foxfyre said:


> Dblack. . . .
> 
> C Clayton Jones had written
> 
> ...



Total propaganda. Turn on the television and be inundated with drug pushers.

Tort reform IS government intervention. It's bureaucrats dictating what a jury of our peers can or can't do. It undermines our justice system and gives the big guy a baseball bat he can use to beat the final measure of injustice into the little guy. Not only does the person or family suffer from the results of the doctor mistake or negligence, or the corporate toxins or dangerous product, the person and family must also endure the measure of the final insult: 'Yes, you were gravely wronged, but you will not justly compensated' 

Almost 250 human beings die every DAY because in a 'decade of education and training' theses doctors can't even learn to wash their hands? My mother taught me that as a kid.

Not only don't you know what tort reform is, you don't even understand our justice system and what a jury of our peers means. It does NOT mean a jury of citizens with a vested interest, bias or conflict of interest. It means a fair trial by a jury of citizens withOUT a vested interest, bias or conflict of interest.

Tort reform is an effort to LIMIT or CAP the amount of compensation a person or family can receive, no matter how egregious and devastating the MALpractice is to a patient. I remember watching on C-Span in 2005 as Republicans argue on the floor of the Senate to limit the amount of compensation a person or family can receive to $250,000 as a lifetime amount. THAT is bureaucrats dictating what a jury of our peers can or can't do. It means no matter the circumstances and REAL cost to a family who would have to take care of a child or family member from birth to grave, bureaucrats dictate they can only receive $250,000, a measly amount if you amortize that over a human beings lifetime and the exorbitant costs that can be incurred. A JURY should decide the amount of compensation based on the facts of the case, not some Politburo. THAT is how our justice system is supposed to work, every citizen has the right to a FAIR trial.

It amazes me how you folks on the right say you are against government intervention into people's lives; then you embrace the most egregious and overbearing government intervention into people's lives and bureaucrats dictating that is right out of the Soviet Union.

BTW, the same doctors have no problem taking HMO's and insurance companies to court. 

Take a look at the record of a host of state medical societies, often joined by the American Medical Association (AMA), who complain about lawsuits and argue that compensation to injured patients should be severely limited. Yet when an HMO, a health insurer or even an auto insurance company has treated doctors unfairly, these doctors go straight to court. And to top it off, while lobbying to limit patients ability to sue and collect compensation from doctors who commit malpractice, they say it is unfair to limit their right to sue and collect compensation from HMOs and health insurers.

Whats more, ask most doctors and theyll tell you they want to limit compensation for injured patients to $250,000 for non-economic losses like permanent disfigurement, loss of a limb, blindness, or pain and suffering. Yet doctors are among the highest paid professionals in the country. When one looks at publicly available annual salary records for some of the critics of injured patients who sue, one finds that they earn well over $250,000 a year without any pain or suffering at all.
More - http://www.centerjd.org/archives/issues-facts/MDHypocrites.pdf 




Tort reform is an issue continually raised by conservative pundits and angry anti-health reform hoards. Indeed, if you do a news google for "health care reform" you will no doubt find a bounty of recent editorials, like this one in the Nevada Appeal, and on Sarah Palin's Facebook page, thundering that tort reform must be part of any federal health care reform package.

But there are some facts about health care the Right doesn't want you to know. In fact, most righties won't admit the truth about tort reform to themselves. These are:

    * Tort law is mostly a state, not a federal, issue. Some proposals for federal tort reform would amount to a federal takeover of state authority and would also run afoul of the Seventh Amendment of the Constitution.

* Most of the states already have enacted tort reform laws. There's very little proposed for federal tort reform that all but a few states haven't enacted already. In other words, in large parts of the country, tort already is "reformed."

    * State tort reform laws have had no impact on health care costs. In some cases, states with the strongest limitations on tort actually have had bigger increases in health care costs than states which have mostly left tort alone.

    * "Defensive medicine" seems to be a sham. The argument that physicians order more tests and procedures to protect themselves from lawsuits is not borne out by physician behavior. There is no data showing that a significant number of physicians change their procedure- and test-ordering policies after state tort reform substantially protects them from malpractice. On the other hand, there is copious documented evidence that physicians who make extra income from the procedures they order, do order more procedures than physicians who dont.
More...


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## emilynghiem (Sep 16, 2013)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> The only problem you and others on the right have with the ACA is it was signed into law by a democratic president you despise solely because hes a democrat.
> 
> Conservatives whine about the ACA but offer nothing to replace it.
> 
> ...



HI CCJones: You bring up several good points worth addressing

A. With Roe V. Wade, the issue of lack of due process in criminalizing abortion was STRUCK DOWN FOR UNCONSTITUTIONALITY
***WITHOUT REPLACING IT WITH ANYTHING.****
So if you are going to criticize, PLEASE BE FAIR.

NOTE: I am a liberal progressive Democrat.
But I'm a Constitutionalist first. I recognize that the Health Care Bill is EQUALLY
unconstitutional for denying "free choice" as the issue of abortion legislation
denying free choice.  

B. About alternatives, I HAVE proposed solutions AS A DEMOCRAT AND HAVE NOT BEEN FU HEARD. What makes you think Dems will listen to Reps if they won't listen to THEIR OWN DAMN PARTY AND CONSTITUENTS:

1. Residents and leaders in a DEMOCRAT BLACK DISTRICT passed FEDERAL LEGISLATION
creating a sustainable campus for interns in health and human services to be integrated
in public housing. DEM CONGRESS WOMAN SHEILA JACKSON LEE COSIGNED the
agreements on this to be implemented in a historic BLACK District in DEMOCRAT
PRECINCT 30. AND YET THIS PLAN WAS DEMOLISHED and RESIDENTS EVICTED.
ALL UNDER DEMOCRAT LEADERSHIP. SO WTFFFFF?????!!!!!

Here: the plans are here: http://www.houstonprogressive.org
and Guiding Principles SJL signed are linked here: Freedmen's Town Historic Churches and Vet Housing

And I'm a FU DEMOCRAT AND I'M SAYING THIS IS BS

Sorry, but my point is if Democrats won't listen to their own constituents
who even passed federal laws to protect constitutional rights and PLANS
that would have created alternative ways of providing health care services

Then WHY BLAME REPUBLICANS for not providing an alternative???? WTF x 1000???

2. Teh solution IS There: to invest in EXPANDING medical schools hospitals and
clinics to provide services through internships and medical education programs.

Bethesda MD already had a program where medical students get their education
paid for by working off their credits serving in public health HMO's.

So that IS the solution

It was ALREADY THERE

Also USAA health insurance company, a high rated company, ALREADY testified
before Congress that they didn't NEED more regulations to serve their members.

Again the solutions were ALREADY THERE.

But because Obama wanted to prove himself politically, he had to push
symbolic legislations that "stands for health care reform" when it
A. is unconstitutional as a distortion of federal govt authority
that is clearly not given or meant in the Constitution
B. pushes things on a federal level that are better handled on state or private levels
C. provokes and distracts opponents that COULD BE FOCUSING on solutions
then BLAMES THEM FOR NOT "having solutions to offer"
when Democrats are equally if not more guilty of not listening to constituents

the Democrats I know who wanted health care reform were still SCREAMING
for single payer and did not want corporate insurance or lobbies involved
in this scheme to crash the system first to shift all control to govt in order
to avoid fines and penalties. So it was indirectly a step to push for single payer.

And that means fighting over the unconstitutionality in the meantime
so the investment that could have gone into solutions goes into political campaigns!!!

CCJ AT the VERY LEAST blame both parties. I would accept that
equally as my own fault in not doing more to stop this nonsense.
But do not dare blame the Republicans who at least have a clue
about Constitutional principles and rule of law. The Democrats I
support for constitutional inclusion, but they don't practice that either.

So you can blame both, to be fair, but the Democrats deserve their fair share of that.
If you are truly constitutionally inclusive and not a onesided hypocrite like those you blame.


----------



## RKMBrown (Sep 17, 2013)

Well said. Plenty of solutions are available. 

However solving problems isn't the business our gov is in. 

Government's main driver is to create reasons for more gov. 

The purpose of Obama care was to create more poverty by lowering the number of full time employees, and increasing the cost of health insurance. Why? The same reason 95% of blacks vote democrat. The Dems are building a dependent voter base.

Dependent voters are loyal voters.


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## emilynghiem (Sep 17, 2013)

Dear Foxfyre and  CCJones: The whole legal system needs to be revamped.
Lawyers will tell you if they cannot receive enough compensation it costs to pursue
big cases against big corporations for legit class actions damages (such as Paxil where they cheated on tests/warnings/referrrals to prescribe drugs to women during pregnancy and created deformed babies whose health care will cost millions in medical costs)
then these injustices will not be addressed.

Civil Rights issues are already neglected because lawyers cannot afford the work
it takes to research these on a probono basis, and/or with no way to pay the expenses
in advance much less guarantee any recooperating costs after they win or lose, etc.

This is NOT EQUAL JUSTICE UNDER LAW.

We either need to sandblast that slogan off the Supreme Court Bldg,
admit the legal/justice system is in breach of Constitutional contracts,
or else create a peace division under the justice system that gives
parties the option of mediating for free to reach consensus on restitution
for damages so we can actually have "free speech and press, right to
petition and unabridged due process". Without consensus on decisions,
how can we promise equal protections of the laws, when politics
buys and sells one side out or the other. To be EQUAL then both
sides' interests must be accommodated with respect to the other.

Thus, mediation and consensus based decisions would be required.
If we only hired lawyers to pursue constitutional solutions, what a
great country we could be again. We could hire lawyers to collect
damages and debts on behalf of taxpayers and quit selling ourselves and justice short.

Just follow the laws already on the books, and we'd all have to
mediate, resolve conflicts and agree on fair restitution and corrections:
ethics-commission.net

If we keep using money to decide justice and politics, we'll never be equal.
Especially not with corporations having both individual rights as persons
under the Constitution but not equal responsibility as Govt for not
abusing collective influence/resources/authority to respect the Bill of Rights.

That's what has most thrown off our balance of power and separation of powers.
Corporations have crossed the line between individual and collective authority
WITHOUT adequate check and balances, but take advantage of both sides!



Foxfyre said:


> Dblack. . . .
> 
> C Clayton Jones had written
> 
> ...


----------



## Snookie (Sep 17, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Well said. Plenty of solutions are available.
> 
> However solving problems isn't the business our gov is in.
> 
> ...



It's not all that one sided.

Corporations get welfare too.


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## Bfgrn (Sep 17, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Well said. Plenty of solutions are available.
> 
> However solving problems isn't the business our gov is in.
> 
> ...



This post only gives insight into who and what YOU are, not Democrats, liberals and progressives.


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## daws101 (Sep 17, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Well said. Plenty of solutions are available.
> 
> However solving problems isn't the business our gov is in.
> 
> ...


something reeks of racism in here.
the same could be said for the christian reich..in that case it would be true..unlike what you're proposing.


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## LoneLaugher (Sep 17, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Well said. Plenty of solutions are available.
> 
> However solving problems isn't the business our gov is in.
> 
> ...



That was the purpose, huh?


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## Snookie (Sep 17, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Well said. Plenty of solutions are available.
> ...



Not really.  He was talking out of his ass, again.


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## eagle1462010 (Sep 17, 2013)

I never thought I'd see the day when the Unions would tell the Dems to fix Obamacare or Repeal it.

The most rabid of defenders and supporters of the Dem Party are ticked off at the current results of the Law.  

If that doesn't tell you that Obamacare is a BOVINE POS then nothing will.


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## LoneLaugher (Sep 18, 2013)

eagle1462010 said:


> I never thought I'd see the day when the Unions would tell the Dems to fix Obamacare or Repeal it.
> 
> The most rabid of defenders and supporters of the Dem Party are ticked off at the current results of the Law.
> 
> If that doesn't tell you that Obamacare is a BOVINE POS then nothing will.



What part of the law are unions upset at? Do you know? 

Do you know that they are not upset at Obama..and that they blame the GOP for the problem? 

They have not said anything about repealing it. Did you know that?

Do you know anything?


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## RKMBrown (Sep 18, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Well said. Plenty of solutions are available.
> ...


Yes the purpose of "free" and/or "discounted" health care for millions of people paid for by fines on the rest of us was to force more of the rest of us into dependency.  Same with SS.  Same with medicare.  Same with TSA.  Same with DOE.  

Govco creates an idiotic program that benefits the few at the expense of the many.  The few become dependent loyal repeat customers.

No different than crack cocaine.  Here take your free crack.


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## Snookie (Sep 18, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



So you don't give a dam about the fifty million uninsured?  Typical social darwinist rhetoric.


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## dblack (Sep 18, 2013)

Snookie said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



Let's give a damn about fifty million (or more) of us who can't afford health care. When an _average_ person can't afford _average_ health care bills, something is fundamentally wrong. Insurance is delusion.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 18, 2013)

Snookie said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...


Typical marxist rhetoric.

You want to steal food money from my family to pay your bills.   Why use government guns to do your theft? Be a man and come get it yourself.  I'll roll out the red carpet for you.


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## Snookie (Sep 18, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Snookie said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...


No thanks, I don't believe in insurrection.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 18, 2013)

Snookie said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Snookie said:
> ...



I see, so you believe redistribution is a passive activity.


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## Foxfyre (Sep 18, 2013)

Within the sociopolitical spectrum, there seems to be four kinds of people:

1.  The clueless

2.  The fanatical government loyalist who refuses to believe his/her political party can do any wrong.

3.  Those who look for somebody to accuse and blame but cannot focus on what would be better or agree on any solution.

4.   Those who seriously want us to choose the best approach for the largest number of people.

So I look at a recent poll that suggests a strong majority of people are seriously worried and concerned about their healthcare under Obamacare, but a majority also don't want the Republicans to shut down the government in order to do something about it if that is what it takes.  The dichotomy continues.

For myself, it is only common sense to structure systems to serve the large majority and then, in addition, figure out how to serve the few.   Obamacare has it bass ackwards.  Because of a few, it disserves the whole.   Except for the precedent it sets, it would not be so serious if it was not dismantling what was the best healthcare system in the world and reducing it to third world medicine as a sacrifice to big government power.


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## The2ndAmendment (Sep 18, 2013)

Snookie said:


> No thanks, I don't believe in insurrection.



The Federal Government itself is an insurrection, it is our Duty to Restore the Rule of Law.

The Second Amendment exists for when the government revolts against the Republic.


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## thanatos144 (Sep 18, 2013)

one of the scariest things ever said is " I'm from the government I'm here to help"


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## Foxfyre (Sep 18, 2013)

thanatos144 said:


> one of the scariest things ever said is " I'm from the government I'm here to help"



Yes.  And the mind boggling thing is that we can look over the relatively short history of our great nation and see again and again and again that 'help' from the government all too often results in huge inefficient, ineffective, unbelievably expensive, and incompetent bureaucracies that are slowly but surely swallowing up whole our choices, option, opportunities and liberties.  It is slowly and surely draining the lifeblood from everything that once made this nation a great nation.

And yet so many still blindly defend the ever encroaching and authoritarian government and condemn those of us who protest.  Has America really been dumbed down that much?  Is it hopeless?

SecondAmendment's plight is being repeated by the millions all over the country as the people do what they can to retain any control of their own lives and livelihoods.  But ultimately we all know it will eventually be futile unless the people stand up and demand that it be turned around.


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## Dot Com (Sep 18, 2013)

Foxfyre said:


> thanatos144 said:
> 
> 
> > one of the scariest things ever said is " I'm from the government I'm here to help"
> ...



 You talking like Caribou Barbie (Palin) now?   

Guess which admin presided over the creation of  DHS?  Republican  Come to the light/away from the repubs Foxy


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## daws101 (Sep 18, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> Snookie said:
> 
> 
> > No thanks, I don't believe in insurrection.
> ...


wrong; The Second Amendment (Amendment II) to the United States Constitution protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms from infringement. It was adopted on December 15, 1791, along with the rest of the United States Bill of Rights. The Second Amendment was based partially on the right to keep and bear arms in English common-law and was influenced by the English Bill of Rights of 1689. This right was described by Sir William Blackstone as an auxiliary right, supporting the natural rights of self-defense, resistance to oppression, and the civic duty to act in concert in defense of the state.[1]

In United States v. Cruikshank (1876), the Supreme Court of the United States ruled that, "The right to bear arms is not granted by the Constitution; neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence" and limited the applicability of the Second Amendment to the federal government.[2] In United States v. Miller (1939), the Supreme Court ruled that the federal government and the states could limit any weapon types not having a reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia.[3][4]

In the twenty-first century, the amendment has been subjected to renewed academic inquiry and judicial interest.[4] In District of Columbia v. Heller (2008), the Supreme court handed down a landmark decision that held expressly that the amendment protects an individual right to possess and carry firearms.[5][6] In McDonald v. Chicago (2010), the Court clarified its earlier decisions limiting the amendment's impact to a restriction on the federal government and expressly found that it limits state and local governments to the same extent that it limits the federal government.[7]


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## Dot Com (Sep 18, 2013)

Yep. The2ndAmendment needs to read Heller


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## daws101 (Sep 18, 2013)

"Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing...after they have exhausted all other possibilities." - 
  --  Winston Churchill


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## Foxfyre (Sep 18, 2013)

daws101 said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > Snookie said:
> ...



The problem comes, in the case of ANY vaguely defined points in the Constitution or in any legislation, including Obamacare, as to whether we allow the courts, even the Supreme Court, to be God--to be the all knowing or all authoritative last word--or whethe we the people retain the power and direct the government to do our will.  Too many people can cite case law, but cannot argue a principle for or against it.  And that is tragic.

But in years past, we had national leaders who did not look to the courts as God, and did not fit their arguments to fit a political party ideology:

Reprinted from the Yale Law Journal, Volume 99, pp. 637-659:



> . . . .I, for one, have been persuaded that the term "militia" did not have the limited reference that Professor Cress and many modern legal analysts assign to it. There is strong evidence that "militia" refers to all of the people, or least all of those treated as full citizens of the community. . . .
> 
> . . . .Cress persuasively shows that no one defended universal possession of arms. New Hampshire had no objection to disarming those who "are or have been in actual rebellion," just as Samuel Adams stressed that only "peaceable citizens" should be protected in their right of "keeping their own arms." 58 All these points can be conceded, however, without conceding as well that Congress &#8212; or, for that matter, the States, &#8212; had the power to disarm these "peaceable citizens."
> 
> ...



Now if we can have a reasonable debate over who is authorized to bear arms via the 2nd Amendment vs reasoned regulation of those same arms, why is it so difficult to have a reasonable debate over what authority the government should be allowed re our healthcare?


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## Snookie (Sep 18, 2013)

Foxfyre said:


> daws101 said:
> 
> 
> > The2ndAmendment said:
> ...



I have never seen a reasonable debate about the right to bear arms.  The NRA and the powerful gun lobby sees to that, regretfully.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 18, 2013)

Snookie said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> > daws101 said:
> ...



That's because authoritarians only view, as reasonable, arguments where the result is every second of every life (other than their own and their friends of course) is micro managed by their chosen authority of reference.


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## Foxfyre (Sep 18, 2013)

Snookie said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> > daws101 said:
> ...



Thanks for illustrating the problem.  You make no effort to discuss or address the concept but launch into an immediate implied condemnation of the NRA and 'powerful gun lobby'.  It isn't their fault there is no discussion.  It is the fault of those who choose to demonize THEM rather than engage them in a reasoned argument.

RKM is just as bad, however, taking your bait with an adhominem attack on authoritarianism, and also not addressing the concept.

I still think it must be something in the water you guys drink.


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## daws101 (Sep 18, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Snookie said:
> 
> 
> > Foxfyre said:
> ...


do you speak any other language besides extreme right propaganda.?


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## RKMBrown (Sep 18, 2013)

Foxfyre said:


> Snookie said:
> 
> 
> > Foxfyre said:
> ...



Just to be clear about what you said here.  If I agree with you, I have to state that fact, or in the absence of said high five, thanks, or I agree with everything you said, you will assume I am suffering from some poison in my water.  This because I responded in the negative to the poster who attacked you.  You asked for a reasoned debate.  The poster explained, and demonstrated by debate is useless with entrenched combatants.

When you are talking about guns.  You will get wildly different and entrenched views.


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## Foxfyre (Sep 18, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> > Snookie said:
> ...



I don't mind widely different and entrenched views as that is what constitutes discussion and debate.  I encourage that.  I have the utmost respect for those who articulate a reasoned defense for their point of view whether or not I can agree with that defense.  But demonizing something or somebody in lieu of a pro or con argument is not a reasoned defense.

What I refuse to accept as intelligent debate are the stupid statements like:
1.  Republicans are racist
2.  Democrats are racist.
3.  Republicans are evil.
4.  Democrats are evil.
5.  Conservatives suck.
6.  Liberals suck.

Or in lieu of addressing the subject we get comments like:

"I have never seen a reasonable debate about the right to bear arms. The NRA and the powerful gun lobby sees to that, regretfully."

and

"That's because authoritarians only view, as reasonable, arguments where the result is every second of every life (other than their own and their friends of course) is micro managed by their chosen authority of reference."

All such statements are part of programming to derail any discussion and promote a food fight/pissing match.


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## Snookie (Sep 18, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Snookie said:
> 
> 
> > Foxfyre said:
> ...



You talking about God?


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## Snookie (Sep 18, 2013)

Foxfyre said:


> Snookie said:
> 
> 
> > Foxfyre said:
> ...



You don't have to get sexist about it.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 18, 2013)

daws101 said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Snookie said:
> ...


There are just as many authoritarians in the right as there are in the left.  My view on gun ownership is, I believe, a constitutional conservative view.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 18, 2013)

Snookie said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Snookie said:
> ...



Does he speak to you about gun control?


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## Snookie (Sep 18, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Snookie said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



In the hallway at three am in the morning.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 18, 2013)

Foxfyre said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Foxfyre said:
> ...


You appear to be more interested in starting and discussing pissing matches than a reasoned discussion.  Instead of reading the arguments you are attacking the posters.

Let me translate the argument to help you get caught up.

He offered that there can be no reasoned discussion about gun "control" when the loud voices that oppose gun "control" crowd out the discussion.  I countered with people who require gun "control" be the result of any argument on gun "control" will never agree to a result that includes a lack of "control" regarding guns.   

He countered that he takes his control from god.   Thus, indicating that he believes the basis for gun control is the bible.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 18, 2013)

Snookie said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Snookie said:
> ...



Ugg.  Maybe you need a different type of gun control


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## daws101 (Sep 18, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> daws101 said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...


what the hell is a constitutional conservative? 
most all people who claim that have either not read it or don't understand what they've read.

gun control is not in actuality a conservative VS liberal issue ,it has been manipulated by the nra and right wing extremists to appear that way.
the fact is just as many "liberals" own guns as do conservatives.


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## eagle1462010 (Sep 18, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> eagle1462010 said:
> 
> 
> > I never thought I'd see the day when the Unions would tell the Dems to fix Obamacare or Repeal it.
> ...



They have stated fix it or repeal it.  I've shown those statements from the Unions already on threads, including this one I believe.

Their biggest beef has been people getting cut to 30 hours a week.  Aka The Idiots who wrote the law had to know this would happen.  It's so stupid that they must have done it on purpose for a later goal...................

Do I know anything....................LOL...............All you do is kiss Obama and the Dems butts all the time and just divert the data because it's bad for your mantra.


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## eagle1462010 (Sep 18, 2013)

&#8220;There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him.&#8221; 
&#8213; Robert A. Heinlein, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress

&#8220;A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.&#8221; 
&#8213; Thomas Jefferson

&#8220;We just can't trust the American people to make those types of choices.... Government has to make those choices for people.&#8221; 
&#8213; Hilary Rodham Clinton

&#8220;The one pervading evil of democracy is the tyranny of the majority, or rather of that party, not always the majority, that succeeds, by force or fraud, in carrying elections.&#8221; 
&#8213; Lord Acton

&#8220;What manner of men had lived in those days...who had so eagerly surrendered their sovereignty for a lie and a delusion? Why had they been so anxious to believe that the government could solve problems for them which had been pridefully solved, many times over, by their fathers? Had their characters become so weak and debased, so craven and emasculated, that offers of government dole had become more important than their liberty and their humanity? Had they not know that power delegated to the government becomes the club of tyrants? They must have known. They had their own history to remember, and the history of five thousand years. Yet, they had willingly and knowingly, with all this knowledge, declared themselves unfit to manage their own affairs and had placed their lives, which belonged to God only, in the hands of sinister men who had long plotted to enslave them, by wars, by "directives," by "emergencies." In the name of the American people, the American people had been made captive.&#8221; 
&#8213; Taylor Caldwell, Devils Advocate


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## LoneLaugher (Sep 18, 2013)

eagle1462010 said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > eagle1462010 said:
> ...



No. That is not their beef. You are incorrect. Please.....research what the unions are upset about and get back to us.


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## eagle1462010 (Sep 18, 2013)

We now live in a temporary Tyranny of a group of Statist who want to transform America into something it was never intended to be.

As Hilary Clinton said, the American people can't be trusted to make choices.  The Gov't has to make those choices for people.  That is the thought process of the Tyrant through Democracy, which is exactly why the Founders formed a Republic.

The ACA, Obamacare, is a temporary majority pushing it's WILL UPON THE PEOPLE.  Saying it's for our own good.  OBEY..............Even when the majority of the country doesn't want it.  Never did, as those who passed it said we are here from the Gov't to help you.

Again, WHO ARE THEY to order me to PUT MY PERSONAL MEDICAL INFO INTO A FEDERAL DATA BASE.  That is my private information.  There was a time that Libs would have come unglued over this, but not now as they have their foot in the door for their wet dream agenda.

A law that passed saying NO FUTURE CONGRESS CAN ALTER IT..........................

What a bunch of ARROGANT STATIST.................  Saying a future Congress can't change it...............

This is the MOB RULING wanting more Gov't as they take OUR ECONOMY INTO THE ABYSS.


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## LoneLaugher (Sep 18, 2013)

eagle1462010 said:


> We now live in a temporary Tyranny of a group of Statist who want to transform America into something it was never intended to be.
> 
> As Hilary Clinton said, the American people can't be trusted to make choices.  The Gov't has to make those choices for people.  That is the thought process of the Tyrant through Democracy, which is exactly why the Founders formed a Republic.
> 
> ...



Don't be silly. It is private health insurance with some consumer protection. You are really overreacting.


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## eagle1462010 (Sep 18, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> eagle1462010 said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



BS..... I've already put the article up that  you obviously refuse to look at our comment on where they said that....................

Get back to us.  Fuck you.............

You refuse to comment on points made and do nothing but offer BS in response.  You don't say a thing about our Medical Records into the Data Base.

You don't say a thing about 700 Billion taken from our elderly.

You blame others, aka businesses for going part time instead of the losers who wrote the law.

You don't say anything about the key elements delayed for a year because it isn't working as planned.

All you turkeys do is blame others for your own fuck ups.


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## eagle1462010 (Sep 18, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> eagle1462010 said:
> 
> 
> > We now live in a temporary Tyranny of a group of Statist who want to transform America into something it was never intended to be.
> ...




Your side of the Isle is perverting the constitution as the framers intended.

But hey, it's for our own good, RIGHT.


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## daws101 (Sep 18, 2013)

eagle1462010 said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > eagle1462010 said:
> ...


 here we go again the perverting the constitution ploy..


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## LoneLaugher (Sep 18, 2013)

eagle1462010 said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > eagle1462010 said:
> ...



Unions back changes to Obamacare to make plans affordable | PoconoRecord.com

Fifth paragraph. The reason unions are upset. 

It has NOTHING to do with part time jobs. You are WRONG. 

You need to learn first. Post second. Fool.


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## Shogun (Sep 18, 2013)

I didn't read the entire thread so maybe someone can answer this one question:

Did the OP ever take a firm grasp on their own bootstraps and pull themselves up into prosperity with nothing more than working harder?

or... is this kind of circumstantial wisdom only applicable in threads where hyperbole against the left is more important than consistent mantras of the right?


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## RKMBrown (Sep 18, 2013)

daws101 said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > daws101 said:
> ...


One would have to be a complete moron to not know what a constitutional conservative is.   Or what his views on gun ownership are.  

I've read the Constitution hundreds of times.  I've studied it, can recite it backwards and fully understand every salient element of it.


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## daws101 (Sep 18, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> daws101 said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...


apparently not....not much on sarcasm either.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 18, 2013)

daws101 said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > daws101 said:
> ...



Apparently not what? jerk.  Can you speak in clear concise sentences, or are you just a Troll? Obuma Care, Welfare for the lazy, attacks on the 2nd amendment, attacks on all manner of liberty.  That's what the left is about.


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## Vox (Sep 18, 2013)

Shogun said:


> I didn't read the entire thread so maybe someone can answer this one question:
> 
> Did the OP ever take a firm grasp on their own bootstraps and pull themselves up into prosperity with nothing more than working harder?
> 
> or... is this kind of circumstantial wisdom only applicable in threads where hyperbole against the left is more important than consistent mantras of the right?



maybe you should first read the thread so you won't jump off the bushes displaying such an amazingly revealing idiocy


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## The2ndAmendment (Sep 19, 2013)

So much hate for me because I'm waiter (by the Progressives).

But these same Progressives embrace the Fast Wood Workers like they are divine, or the waitress that just got (wrongly) fired because the patrons were obviously racist.


----------



## nia588 (Sep 19, 2013)

That darn Obama.


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## LoneLaugher (Sep 19, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> daws101 said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



Yes. That s what the left is all about. Exactly. 

And the right is so fucked up.....so unable to come to grips with reality....that the left.....the horrid, sheepish, limp-wristed and vile left......has taken over this country. Be a man, Brownie. DO SOMETHING!!!!!


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## Bfgrn (Sep 19, 2013)

Foxfyre said:


> thanatos144 said:
> 
> 
> > one of the scariest things ever said is " I'm from the government I'm here to help"
> ...



"I'm from the government I'm here to help"

Ronald Reagan, the most destructive American in our history...a man who created enemies for the right to hate...the poor, the elderly, the disabled and any government program that helps We, the People. Conservatism is now a cancer on this nation that has metastasized into a deadly disease.


"Ronald Reagan must be the nicest president who ever destroyed a union, tried to cut school lunch milk rations from six to four ounces, and compelled families in need of public help to first dispose of household goods in excess of $1,000...1f there is an authoritarian regime in the American future, Ronald Reagan is tailored to the image of a friendly fascist." - Robert Lekachman


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## Bfgrn (Sep 19, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



We tried a charity only approach to social services...IT FAILED miserably. Medicare alone lifted millions of Americans out of poverty. 



Hey I have a solution...

Hey grandma...get a fucking job, go back to college, start a new career...get your lazy ass out of that chair!!!






Do you hear me grandma?

Do you hear me grandma?

Do you hear me grandma?

Do you hear me grandma?

You shall rise up before the gray-headed and honor the aged, and you shall revere your God; I am the Lord.
Leviticus 19:32


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Sep 19, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> So much hate for me because I'm waiter (by the Progressives).
> 
> But these same Progressives embrace the Fast Wood Workers like they are divine, or the waitress that just got (wrongly) fired because the patrons were obviously racist.



No, theres no hate, and it has nothing to do with anyone being a waiter. 

It has only to do with your willful ignorance and the fact youre a tedious partisan hack.


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## TemplarKormac (Sep 19, 2013)

Bfgrn said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



Here's a bright idea: Get all of those able bodied liberals off of Welfare first.

For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
2 Thessalonians 3:10


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## TemplarKormac (Sep 19, 2013)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > So much hate for me because I'm waiter (by the Progressives).
> ...



In the 1 hour and 20 minutes I've been here tonight, you have made a reference to "ignorance" at least three times already. Is this all you say when you have nothing to say? 'Ignorant' this, 'ignorant' that. My gosh, come up with an intelligent argument for once.


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## Bfgrn (Sep 19, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



If there is a citizenry on this planet that does NOT have an entitlement mentality, it is the American people. American workers take less vacation time than any other people. American workers take pride in the quality of their work and their work ethic. 

What Romney said is a gross insult and reveals a dangerous mindset. He reeks of contempt for middle class working people and the poor.

Who are the 47%?

Federal budget and Census data show that, in 2010, 91 percent of the benefit dollars from entitlement and other mandatory programs went to the elderly (people 65 and over), the seriously disabled, and members of working households.  People who are neither elderly nor disabled  and do not live in a working household  received only 9 percent of the benefits. 

Moreover, the vast bulk of that 9 percent goes for medical care, unemployment insurance benefits (which individuals must have a significant work history to receive), Social Security survivor benefits for the children and spouses of deceased workers, and Social Security benefits for retirees between ages 62 and 64.  Seven out of the 9 percentage points go for one of these four purposes.

80 percent of the workforce has seen their wages decline in real terms over the last quarter-century, and the average household has seen 40 percent of its wealth disappear during the Great Recession. Through it all, families never asked for a handout from anyone, especially Washington. They were left to go on their own, working harder, squeezing nickels, and taking care of themselves. But their economic boats have been taking on water for years, and now the crisis has swamped millions of middle class families. ref ref

"Labor is the United States. The men and women, who with their minds, their hearts and hands, create the wealth that is shared in this countrythey are America." 
President Dwight D. Eisenhower


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## TemplarKormac (Sep 19, 2013)

Bfgrn said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > Bfgrn said:
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Wow. I didn't say anything about Romney. Just that little quip brought on a paranoid and partisan display of ignorance.

Then again, if you really cared about the 'working poor', wouldn't you be trying to get them to work instead of prattling on about how they are poor and disadvantaged? How come you keep encouraging their victimhood instead of their potential? That is the exact opposite of what Dwight Eisenhower was trying to engender in Americans. He didn't ask for people like you to encourage their apathy. 

Then again, you would much rather tax the poor into prosperity by taxing the rich out of it. 

"For a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket trying to lift himself up by the handle."

-Winston Churchill


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## Bfgrn (Sep 19, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> Bfgrn said:
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Blind fucking ignorance as usual from you right wing social Darwinists. I presented nothing but facts little boy. LOOK at WHO the 47% REALLY are. It is NOT a bunch of able bodied lazy people. Open your fucking eyes. 

You like Ike?

"Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history."
President Dwight D. Eisenhower

"In all those things which deal with people, be liberal, be human. In all those things which deal with people's money, or their economy, or their form of government, be conservative."
President Dwight D. Eisenhower

The final bit of ignorance...you quote Winston Churchill, the father of the welfare state.


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## TemplarKormac (Sep 19, 2013)

Bfgrn said:


> TemplarKormac said:
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My "final bit of ignorance" was stating the obvious, dimwit.  Now, if you could stop foaming at the mouth long enough to formulate an argument, that'd be great. And by the way, just how many times will I see a liberal refer to someone as "ignorant" today?


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## Snookie (Sep 19, 2013)

eagle1462010 said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > eagle1462010 said:
> ...


the framers were afraid of true democracy rule.  That's why they made us a republic.  Remember, that they did not even trust women to vote.


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## Bfgrn (Sep 19, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> Bfgrn said:
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> > TemplarKormac said:
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I made an argument based on FACTS. But you want to IGNORE facts and instead spew emotions.

THAT is the very definition of IGNORance.


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## TemplarKormac (Sep 19, 2013)

Bfgrn said:


> TemplarKormac said:
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> > Bfgrn said:
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Yes, facts you chose to distort. A man who is uncomfortable with the truth will try to bend it to his will. I spew realities, not emotions. You spew emotions, not realities. 

Is it not the liberal who cries "YOU'RE RACIST!" when someone defeats their arguments? Is it not the iberal who says "YOU'RE A BIGOT!" when someone disagrees with his opinion? Is it not the liberal who says "YOU'RE HATEFUL!" when someone calls them down on their lies?

You ignore reality, the very essence of ignorance.


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## TemplarKormac (Sep 19, 2013)

Hey [MENTION=42294]Snookie[/MENTION]:

Still think you're cute?


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## Bfgrn (Sep 19, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> Bfgrn said:
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> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...



I provided 'reality', but it doesn't fit into your distorted social Darwinist hatred.

Do you need MORE reality? I will provide it for you right wing Beck fed scum bags to ignore as USUAL, and instead continue to parrot what your corporate handlers tell you to mimic. 

But why not try a new approach, instead of spewing emotions? Why don't you try a REAL novel approach...educate yourself. Let's start with what was called the War on Poverty. There was NO initiatives or intent to enslave minorities. It was totally based on opportunity, responsibility, community and empowerment. 

The War on Poverty was a program that any conservative should support. But right wing turds just TALK about opportunity, when all they really believe in is punishment and hatred.

The War on Poverty, what it is and isn't...

There's always the 'able bodied but lazy poor person', the 'bleeding heart liberal' who just wants to hand out other people's money and of course, the clear headed 'conservative' whose 'tough love' always saves the day. Well, I refuse to play along. If you had the intelligence and curiosity to find out what the 'War on Poverty' was about and what it wasn't about, it would save you from all the bloviation that comes out of your ass. 

When JFK's brother-in law Sargent Shriver accepted LBJ's challenge and took on the 'War on Poverty' the first thing he discovered was rather startling and disturbing. Half of the Americans living in poverty were children. Another large segment were elderly and another segment were mentally and/or physically disabled. So a HUGE segment of the poor fit the TRUE definition of a dependent. So there is an obligation as a civil society to make sure those real dependents are not trampled on or extinguished. 

To address some of the players in your fairy tale, voila! We have an unabashed flaming liberal...Sargent Shriver. But I hate to disappoint you. Sargent Shriver hated welfare and had no intention of creating a handout program. He didn't believe in handouts, he believed in community action. The 'War on Poverty' was called the *Office of Economic Opportunity*. The core principles were opportunity, responsibility, community and empowerment. The program's aims were maximum feasible participation. One of the concepts of empowerment was poor people had a right to one-third of the seats on every local poverty program board. It was a community based program that focused on education as the keys to the city. Programs such as VISTA, Job Corps, Community Action Program, and Head Start were created to increase opportunity for the poor so they could pull themselves out of poverty with a hand UP, not a hand out. Even when Johnson effectively pulled the plug on the War on Poverty to fund the war in Vietnam, Shriver fought on and won. During the Shriver years more Americans got out of poverty than during any similar time in our history. (The Clinton years - employing the same philosophy - were the second best.)Ref


You want JOBS? That was what the 'War on Poverty' was all about. Here is one of the agencies created by the 'War on Poverty'...

Job Corps is a program administered by the United States Department of Labor that offers free-of-charge education and vocational training to youth ages 16 to 24.

Job Corps offers career planning, on-the-job training, job placement, residential housing, food service, driver's education, basic health and dental care, a bi-weekly basic living allowance and clothing allowance. Some centers offer childcare programs for single parents as well.

Besides vocational training, the Job Corps program also offers academic training, including basic reading and math, GED attainment, college preparatory, and Limited English Proficiency courses. Some centers also offer programs that allow students to remain in residence at their center while attending college.[citation needed] Job Corps provides career counseling and transition support to its students for up to one year after they graduate from the program.

Career paths

Career paths offered by Job Corps include:

Advanced manufacturing

    Communication design
    Drafting
    Electronic assembly
    Machine appliance repair
    Machining
    Welding
    Manufacturing technology
    Sign, billboard, and display

Automotive and machine repair

    Automobile technician
    General services technician
    Collision repair and refinish
    Heavy construction equipment mechanic
    Diesel mechanic
    Medium/heavy truck repair
    Electronics tech
    Stationary engineering

Construction

    Bricklaying
    Carpentry
    Cement masonry
    Concrete and terrazzo
    Construction craft laborer
    Electrical
    Electrical overhead line
    Facilities maintenance
    Floor covering
    Glazing
    HVAC
    Industrial engineering technician
    Licensed electrician (bilingual)
    Mechanical engineering technician
    Painting
    Plastering
    Plumbing
    Roto-Rooter plumbing
    Tile setting

Extension programs

    Advanced Career Training (ACT)
    General Educational Development (GED)
    Commercial driver's license (CDL)
    Off-Center Training (OCT Program)
    High school diploma (HSD Program)

Finance and Business

    Accounting services
    Business management
    Clerical occupations
    Legal secretary
    Insurance and financial services
    Marketing
    Medical insurance specialist
    Office administration
    Paralegal
    Purchasing

Health care/allied health professions

    Clinical medical assistant
    Dental assistant
    EKG technician
    Emergency medical technician
    Exercise/massage therapy
    Hemodialysis technician
    Licensed practical/vocational nurse
    Medical office support
    Nurse assistant/home health aide
    Opticianry
    Pharmacy technician
    Phlebotomy
    Physical therapy assistant
    Rehabilitation therapy
    Rehabilitation technician
    Registered nurse
    Respiratory therapy
    Sterile processing
    Surgical technician

Homeland security

    Corrections officer
    Seamanship
    Security and protective services

Hospitality

    Culinary arts
    Hotel and lodging

Information technology

    A+ Microsoft MSCE
    Computer Networking/Cisco
    Computer systems administrator
    Computer support specialist
    Computer technician
    Integrated system tech
    Network cable installation
    Visual communications

Renewable resources and energy

    Forest conservation and urban forestry
    Firefighting
    Wastewater
    Landscaping

Retail sales and services

    Behavioral health aide
    Criminal justice
    Child development
    Residential advisor
    Cosmetology
    Retail sales

Transportation

    Asphalt paving
    Material and distribution operations
    Clerical occupations
    Heavy equipment operations
    Roustabout operator
    Heavy truck driving
    TCU administrative clerk

"The legitimate object of Government is to do for a community of people whatever they need to have done but cannot do at all, or cannot so well do, for themselves in their separate and individual capacities. But in all that people can individually do as well for themselves, Government ought not to interfere."
President Abraham Lincoln


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## Bfgrn (Sep 19, 2013)

Job Corp...

On the night that Lyndon Johnson died, George Foreman  a young boxer who escaped his troubled life in the Houston ghetto with the help of LBJs Job Corps program to win a gold medal in the 1968 Olympics  knocked out Joe Frazier in Kingston, Jamaica to win the World Heavyweight Championship.  Foreman felt so indebted to LBJ and the Job Corps for helping him achieve his goals that he donated his championship belt to the LBJ Library in Austin, Texas where it is on display today.

Watch from 2:39 to 6:29...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uF2bRsPjw0c]Centerstage George Foreman - YouTube[/ame]


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## TemplarKormac (Sep 19, 2013)

Bfgrn said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > Bfgrn said:
> ...



You accuse me of hatred? Well then, your namecalling invalidates your argument on it's face. Because, therefore, you are equally as hateful.


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## TemplarKormac (Sep 19, 2013)

"My fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country."

John F. Kennedy


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## RKMBrown (Sep 19, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> RKMBrown said:
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> > daws101 said:
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I do things about it every day.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 19, 2013)

Bfgrn said:


> RKMBrown said:
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> ...



You sir are a liar. Even though we were on the way and did become the richest nation on the face of the planet, there are still 50million Americans living in poverty.  Why? Because of dumb ass liberals like you that think paying people to be poor is cool.  In my family we take care of our parents and grand parents when they get older.  Sad that you think a government check is a substitute for family unity. SAD DESPICABLE HUMAN BEING YOU ARE.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 19, 2013)

Snookie said:


> eagle1462010 said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...


That is a lie. Women most certainly did vote back then.  They just did not have a guarantee of a vote, as the states each individually decided that issue.



> 1776 	Abigail Adams writes to her husband, John Adams, asking him to "remember the ladies" in the new code of laws. Adams replies the men will fight the "despotism of the petticoat."
> 1777 	Women lose the right to vote in New York.
> 1780 	Women lose the right to vote in Massachusetts.
> 1784 	Women lose the right to vote in New Hampshire.
> ...


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## LoneLaugher (Sep 19, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> Bfgrn said:
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> > RKMBrown said:
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Answer the question in my sig, please, Christian. 

Thanks.


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## Snookie (Sep 19, 2013)

Bfgrn said:


> TemplarKormac said:
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By the power vested in me I officially award your post the LiberalAvenger Seal Of Approval.


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## Snookie (Sep 19, 2013)

> 6 in 10 Americans -- Are You One of Them?
> 
> This week, the Department of Health and Human Services released a report on Obamacare. HHS estimates that, under the Health Insurance Marketplace that's launching on October 1st, nearly 6 out of 10 uninsured Americans could get low-cost, high value health insurance for under $100 per person per month.
> 
> ...



Thank you President Obama.


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## Mr Natural (Sep 19, 2013)

If Obamacare was in fact the giant clusterfuck the conservatives are claiming, and if the repubs had any brains at all, they'd let it run it's course and then use the disaster as ammo in the upcoming elections.


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## Amelia (Sep 19, 2013)

Snookie said:


> > 6 in 10 Americans -- Are You One of Them?
> >
> > This week, the Department of Health and Human Services released a report on Obamacare. HHS estimates that, under the Health Insurance Marketplace that's launching on October 1st, nearly 6 out of 10 uninsured Americans could get low-cost, high value health insurance for under $100 per person per month.
> >
> ...




6 in 10 Americans?

Interesting display of the cognitive process of people promoting Obamacare. 

Despite making some headway toward this goal, Obamacare has not been successful in removing everyone from their preexisting insurance plans. 

6 in 10 uninsured Americans does not equal  6 in 10 Americans.  We can defer other factchecking until you master this numerical concept.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 19, 2013)

Snookie said:


> > 6 in 10 Americans -- Are You One of Them?
> >
> > This week, the Department of Health and Human Services released a report on Obamacare. HHS estimates that, under the Health Insurance Marketplace that's launching on October 1st, nearly 6 out of 10 uninsured Americans could get low-cost, high value health insurance for under $100 per person per month.
> >
> ...


Why do you think this is good?  I already have health insurance for 450 a month for a family of 5.  Further no TAX PAYER SUBSIDIES ARE REQUIRED FOR MY HEALTH INSURANCE. 

Obama's 100 per person BULL SHIT includes increased costs on EVERYONE ELSE YOU ASS.

Thank you Obama?  Screw you.  You should be thanking ME FOR PAYING FOR YOUR HEALTH INSURANCE SUBSIDIES you ungrateful jerk.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 19, 2013)

Mr Clean said:


> If Obamacare was in fact the giant clusterfuck the conservatives are claiming, and if the repubs had any brains at all, they'd let it run it's course and then use the disaster as ammo in the upcoming elections.



Because the conservatives actually give a crap about this country?


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## Camp (Sep 19, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
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> > TemplarKormac said:
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So if someone insults you or in your opinion shows a hate as equal as your own, you invalidate and blow off facts and revert to your own non-facts and distortions. How conveniet.


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## Foxfyre (Sep 19, 2013)

Mr Clean said:


> If Obamacare was in fact the giant clusterfuck the conservatives are claiming, and if the repubs had any brains at all, they'd let it run it's course and then use the disaster as ammo in the upcoming elections.



That is exactly why we got the disaster of a healthcare bill that Obamacare is--because we have politicians who care more about keeping themselves in power where they are enriching themselves mightily at our expense.  They care about that more than they care whether they actually do anything for the country or their citizens.  

We got a massive law that promised the rosiest of scenarios and sucked in the gullible and partisan devotees like dust into a huge vacuum.  Never mind that they didn't care what was in it and none who voted for it had even read it.  They had to pass it to find out what was in it, remember?  Meanwhile they told people like you that it was the magic bullet that would make everything wonderful.  And you bought it.

The result?  We have more people unemployed and under employed in this country than we had during the Great Depression.  We have more people on food stamps, more people receiving some kind of government aid than we have had in the history of this country, and the ever incresing burden is burying us under debt our great grandchildren can't hope to pay off even as the economy is sucked dry of vitality and opportunity.  Our healthcare system is being systematically dismantled while the rules and regs number into the tens of thousands of pages and aren't even half done yet.  We will likely wind up with far more uninsured people than we had to begin with.



> &#8220;Obamacare is fully implemented January 1st, even though the regulations haven&#8217;t been written yet. And Brian, we&#8217;ve got 33,000 pages of regulations that they&#8217;ve already written. If we stacked it up here, it would be seven feet tall.&#8221;
> &#8212; Rep. Richard Hudson (R-N.C.), speaking on &#8220;Fox and Friends,&#8221; May 13, 2013



So tell us again how the Republicans should just let things crash and burn so they can regain power?  Is that what we elect people to leadership to do?  Or do we elect them to have the best interest of the country and the people as their number one and ony motivation?


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## Dot Com (Sep 19, 2013)

Repubs had control of the entire gov't apparatus from 2000-2006. Why didn't they address the ever-increasing amt of GDP that HC was gobbling up not to mention the backwards approach that was being used to treat illness (waiting until people get really sick instead of addressing it before it gets to that point through wellness care?) 

I'll tell you what Repubs did in that 6 yr span of time where they had complete control of the gov't  nothing!

Well,,,,, aside from starting an optional, unpaid-for, TRILLION $ + war, a tax-cut during that 10+ yr war, and a TRILLION $ give-away to BigPharma in the form of Med Part D unfunded mandate boondoggle. 

Now they're belly-aching   Spare us your crocodile tears


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## Amelia (Sep 19, 2013)

LOL.  Boondoggles are good if Democrats authored them?


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## Foxfyre (Sep 19, 2013)

Dot Com said:


> Repubs had control of the entire gov't apparatus from 2000-2006. Why didn't they address the ever-increasing amt of GDP that HC was gobbling up not to mention the backwards approach that was being used to treat illness (waiting until people get really sick instead of addressing it before it gets to that point through wellness care?)
> 
> I'll tell you what Repubs did in that 6 yr span of time where they had complete control of the gov't  nothing!
> 
> ...



And that has WHAT to do with the horrendous unconscionable boondoggle that we're dealing with in Obamacare?  Not a single Republican voted for it in the House or Senate, and they lacked a sufficient majority to overturn it though the House has voted to do that several times now--Harry Reid won't let any of those bills out of committee to even be debated, much less put up for a vote.

Some of us care about this country and want to do the right thing for the country and its people.

Some of you just want to point fingers and blame somebody and don't seem to give a damn about the damage being done so long as you can turn the focus to somebody else's unrelated sins.


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## Dot Com (Sep 19, 2013)

you people really "cared" about HealthCare gobbling up 15%+ of GDP while having mediocre outcomes/failed care practices (treating the illness instead of preventing its occurrence in the first place) up until Obamneycare was passed.  

keep drinking that SeanRush kool aid Foxy


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## Amelia (Sep 19, 2013)

Got it.  Democrat-generated boondoggles are good.


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## Foxfyre (Sep 19, 2013)

Dot Com said:


> you people really "cared" about HealthCare gobbling up 15%+ of GDP while having mediocre outcomes/failed care practices (treating the illness instead of preventing its occurrence in the first place) up until Obamneycare was passed.
> 
> keep drinking that SeanRush kool aid Foxy



Yes I DID care about it which is why I have been railing against Medicare and federal Medicaid that has been driving up health costs for decades.  I wanted the federal government out of the healthcare business totally.  And yes, I blame the Republicans for not doing what was right when they have the power just as I blame the Democrats for being self serving and not motivated to do their jobs.

And I blame people like YOU who seem to have zero ethics or conviction about doing what is right, but who would demonize one party while giving your own a complete pass.   And THAT my friend, is exactly why we are in the mess we are in.


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## Dot Com (Sep 19, 2013)

Foxfyre said:


> Dot Com said:
> 
> 
> > you people really "cared" about HealthCare gobbling up 15%+ of GDP while having mediocre outcomes/failed care practices (treating the illness instead of preventing its occurrence in the first place) up until Obamneycare was passed.
> ...



ummm..... politics is "the art of the possible" Foxy. Forgive me as I wrongly assumed that you were aware of that. The Dem's did what could be done given the butt hurt obstructionist Repubs who were/are water-carriers for the insurance industry did everything in their power to obstruct/delay. Unnerstand now?


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## daws101 (Sep 19, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> daws101 said:
> 
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> > RKMBrown said:
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can you say indoctrinated.?
everything you just said is propaganda.. your half witticisms about the pres and the left are smoking gun proof of wilful ignorance and hubris.


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## Foxfyre (Sep 19, 2013)

Dot Com said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> > Dot Com said:
> ...



If Obamacare is the classic example of Democrats 'doing what they could', God help us all if we don't have Republicans throwing up roadblocks to keep them from doing more.


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## Dot Com (Sep 19, 2013)

its settled then. Repubs did everything in their power to ignore the giant sucking sound (HC eating up more and more of GDP to the tune of 15%+ & HC insurance co's profitting-off of denying treatment) and the Dem's addressed it given the overwhelming obstruction put up by the Repubs and did the best they could. I, personally, wanted single-payer but w/ the Repubs hair-pulling & hand-wringing, at the insurance co's behest, Its amazing we got any reform at all such as:

no lifetime caps
no discrimination for pre-existing conditions 
stay on parent's policy until 26 if so desire
etc....


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## daws101 (Sep 19, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...


another half truth..yes some people play the system..to clue you in .
According to the statistics, whites form the largest racial group on welfare; half of all welfare recipients leave in the first two years; and teenagers form less than 8 percent of all welfare mothers. Also given that there are more people in Red States on Welfare than Blue states, i'd have to say Conservatives.

btw the romans and the greeks had welfare programs.
also you biblical sound bite is out of context.


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## daws101 (Sep 19, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> "My fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country."
> 
> John F. Kennedy


again out of context.


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## daws101 (Sep 19, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
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like what?...nothing that serves all of us, I'll wager .


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## Foxfyre (Sep 19, 2013)

Nobody says it better than Mark Levin said it this past week:

Mark Levin?s EPIC Monologue on Republicans Being Forced to Defund ObamaCare - Fox Nation


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## daws101 (Sep 19, 2013)

Foxfyre said:


> Nobody says it better than Mark Levin said it this past week:
> 
> Mark Levin?s EPIC Monologue on Republicans Being Forced to Defund ObamaCare - Fox Nation


FOX? REALLY?
The Most Biased Name in News ? FAIR: Fairness & Accuracy In Reporting


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## LoneLaugher (Sep 19, 2013)

Mark Levin is playing you.


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## Foxfyre (Sep 19, 2013)

Then I'm quite sure that you guys can provide a competent rebuttal for anything Levin said in that monologue yes?  Because you found a blindly partisan site who would declare Fox News biased?  Or because you don't like Levin?  That is what passes for competent debate these days?

By the way I was not commenting on anything other than Levin's content in that monologue.  And his radio program is not affiliated in any way with Fox News.

For those of you who for whatever reason can't access the linked recording of his excellent rant, here is a brief summary of the content:
http://dailycaller.com/2013/09/19/l...-warns-gop-not-to-drop-obamacare-fight-audio/


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## daws101 (Sep 19, 2013)

Foxfyre said:


> Then I'm quite sure that you guys can provide a competent rebuttal for anything Levin said in that monologue yes?  Because you found a blindly partisan site who would declare Fox News biased?  Or because you don't like Levin?  That is what passes for competent debate these days?
> 
> By the way I was not commenting on anything other than Levin's content in that monologue.  And his radio program is not affiliated in any way with Fox News.
> 
> ...


WRONG All you have to do is watch fox "news" for 5 min to know it's extremly bias..
I posted that article to show that it's not just my personal opinion.


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## Foxfyre (Sep 19, 2013)

daws101 said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> > Then I'm quite sure that you guys can provide a competent rebuttal for anything Levin said in that monologue yes?  Because you found a blindly partisan site who would declare Fox News biased?  Or because you don't like Levin?  That is what passes for competent debate these days?
> ...



You posted that article to deflect from Levin's commentary.  Pure and simple.  At least be honest about that.  And FAIR is one of the most liberal progressive sites on the internet only slightly less dishonest than MediaMatters.  So you trust them to be honest about Fox News?  They have not given ANY right leaning media group any kind of credit for anything since their inception while you have to look long and hard to find any criticism of any kind of any leftwing media source.

You guys are so transparent and it is so boring to have to keep pointing that out.


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## LoneLaugher (Sep 19, 2013)

Foxfyre said:


> Then I'm quite sure that you guys can provide a competent rebuttal for anything Levin said in that monologue yes?  Because you found a blindly partisan site who would declare Fox News biased?  Or because you don't like Levin?  That is what passes for competent debate these days?
> 
> By the way I was not commenting on anything other than Levin's content in that monologue.  And his radio program is not affiliated in any way with Fox News.
> 
> ...



First sentence:

Obamacare is not the government controlling healthcare.

Second sentence:

Tens of Thousands of pages ( my ass ) of regulations that are easy to comprehend...if one tries. 

Third sentence:

The government will not be collecting medical information. 

Fourth and fifth sentences:

Millions of Americans do not have health care policies.  Prices have been going through the roof for decades. The rate of increase has slowed. 

Sixth sentence. Colleges are dropping insurance plans? Need some proof for that. Obamacare has not been implemented yet, by the way. 

Seventh sentence:  SOME unions have specific issues with specific parts of the law...having to do with whether or not their members will get subsidies. Levin is full of shit. 

Next several minutes......bullshit rhetoric about Congress, Supreme Court, radical POTUS and shredding Constitution. 

That's it...I can't listen to that nut any more. IRS....destroying the best health care system in the world.....blah blah fucking blah!

Levin is playing you. Better go buy his book.


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## Smilodonfatalis (Sep 19, 2013)

This thread is a crock.

You guys do understand the meaning of anecdotal evidence, don't you?

There is no statistical evidence that Obamacare is having a negative impact on employment.


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## dblack (Sep 19, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Obamacare is not the government controlling healthcare.



Yeah, it really is. PPACA dictates how we must finance our health care, how much and what kind of health insurance insurance must buy and whom we may buy it from. When you control how something is paid for, you control that thing. 

This power will get used. If not by the Democrats who passed it, then by the Republicans who follow them. Like all corporatist programs, it will be used to reward behavior that is beneficial to government interests and punish that which is not.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 19, 2013)

daws101 said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > daws101 said:
> ...



Indoctrinated into what?  Loving this country? 

You got one thing right.  I have a definite hubris for my country.  And will defend it as such against the likes of you.


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## Foxfyre (Sep 19, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> > Then I'm quite sure that you guys can provide a competent rebuttal for anything Levin said in that monologue yes?  Because you found a blindly partisan site who would declare Fox News biased?  Or because you don't like Levin?  That is what passes for competent debate these days?
> ...



Is he?  I don't think so.  I respect anybody who might disagree with his conclusions, but nobody, and I mean nobody, has more impeccable scholarship than does Mark Levin.  So I'm sure you can find credible SOURCES, other than only your biased opinion, to discredit his commentary since you are so sure he is 'playing us?'

I'll respond to two of your unsourced opinions as sufficient evidence that you most likely have nothing to based them on.  And leave it to you to find CREDIBLE sources to support the rest of it.

Re that data base:



> It's an extremely technical issue but Section 153.340 of a new HHS proposed rule dealing with Obamacare mandates that individual states (or the department) collect "raw claims data sets" from all insurers on all people with private coverage purchased either individually or through small employers, which includes that obtained from the new state exchanges the law requires be created. [See a collection of political cartoons on healthcare.]
> 
> HHS says these databases need to be developed to implement what healthcare policy experts call "risk adjustment methodologies," supposedly insuring that risk is fairly distributed across the insurance pool. And, starting in 2017 states may permit large employers to purchase coverage through exchanges in addition to small employers and individuals. However, there are already concerns that the information collected may somehow end up in some kind of national, centralized database that will include private information about virtually all insured Americans.
> 
> ...



Re those colleges dropping their healthcare plans. . . .



> Some colleges are dropping student health-insurance plans for the coming academic year and others are telling students to expect sharp premium increases because of a provision in the federal health law requiring plans to beef up coverage.
> 
> Colleges are dropping student health-insurance plans due to a federal health-law provision requiring plans to offer more substantial coverage. Louise Radnofsky has exclusive details on Lunch Break.
> 
> ...



And as for the government controlling healthcare, what else do you call it when the government says we MUST have healthcare insurance or the government will assign it to us and charge us or, if we can't afford it, will force everybody else to buy it for us even as it dictates to us what kind of healthcare the government will allow?


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## LoneLaugher (Sep 19, 2013)

Foxfyre said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > Foxfyre said:
> ...



Scholarship? Mark Levin?

Please. Just stop.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 19, 2013)

daws101 said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



One example:

I'm raising 3 children who each believe as I do in our constitution.   One's a nurse at the local trauma one center.  One's studying to be an Engineer.  And the third is a valedictorian that plans on becoming a doctor or surgeon.

As for "serving" you.  Not likely.


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## LoneLaugher (Sep 19, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> daws101 said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



Wow! You are a great daddy! Congratulations. 

Now....what are you doing about your freedom being taken away by us libs? I'll tell you what you are doing.  You are listening to talk radio and repeating what you hear. You are doing NOTHING but typing. What kind of patriot just sits there while the US Constitution is being shredded?


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## RKMBrown (Sep 19, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Now....what are you doing about your freedom being taken away by us libs? I'll tell you what you are doing.  You are listening to talk radio and repeating what you hear. You are doing NOTHING but typing. What kind of patriot just sits there while the US Constitution is being shredded?



Why would I listen to talk radio?  Maybe once in a blue moon might catch levin, just because it's on at that time.  Otherwise I work from home most of the time and have no desire to listen to talk radio.

Here's to hoping one of the shooting starts or we replace the traitor in chief as soon as possible so folks like you have to run back into your holes.


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## LoneLaugher (Sep 19, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > Now....what are you doing about your freedom being taken away by us libs? I'll tell you what you are doing.  You are listening to talk radio and repeating what you hear. You are doing NOTHING but typing. What kind of patriot just sits there while the US Constitution is being shredded?
> ...



What? You hope for the shooting to start? I can see it now. You standing there on the front line with your dopey hat. Right align side you are  the underemployed 2A....with a tray of pastries and the unemployed Templar Koolaid with a toy sword and pink handkerchief. 

I'll be the one dying of laughter.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 19, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



Laugh all you want, us conservatives get all the hot women.


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## TemplarKormac (Sep 19, 2013)

daws101 said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > Bfgrn said:
> ...



Lmao.  The stupid you display is beyond words.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Sep 19, 2013)

daws101 said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > "My fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country."
> ...



Says the guy who photoshops Nazi propaganda posters to call Republicans fascist, and uses them as an avatar. 

Context is a bitch, isn't it?


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## Shogun (Sep 19, 2013)

Vox said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> > I didn't read the entire thread so maybe someone can answer this one question:
> ...



47 pages by the time I posted?  Naw, I have a life, thanks.

"amazingly revealed idiocy"?


----------



## Shogun (Sep 19, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> So much hate for me because I'm waiter (by the Progressives).
> 
> But these same Progressives embrace the Fast Wood Workers like they are divine, or the waitress that just got (wrongly) fired because the patrons were obviously racist.



I don't hate you because of your chosen profession; I merely asked a question about how you reacted to your unfortunate luck beyond crying about Obama.  I've heard that your kind like to talk about simply working harder and pulling yourself up by your bootstraps...  So, how is that working out for you?


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## TemplarKormac (Sep 19, 2013)

Shogun said:


> Vox said:
> 
> 
> > Shogun said:
> ...



A life, yes. A brain? Not so much. You think of commenting on a thread you care not to educate yourself on. That's pretty smart, genius.


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## Foxfyre (Sep 19, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



Yup.  There are some out there as good, but nobody better than him.   I'll put his worst efforts up against your very best or anybody like you in a heartbeat.  Because people like him KNOW what they're talking about and are the people who get quoted.  They don't go combing through leftwing hate sites just to have anything at all to copy and paste and then pretend to say.


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Sep 19, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



Its gotten to the point where the partisan right actually perceives the lies they propagate about the ACA as truth; indeed, theyve been lying for so long they dont even know what the truth is anymore. 

Sad.


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## Shogun (Sep 19, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> > Vox said:
> ...



I take it that your total lack of an answer to my question is, itself, the answer to my question.  

Be sure to think of a real good snarky reply, internet badass.  Keyboard rage is truly impressive.


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## Foxfyre (Sep 19, 2013)

I'll just refer you to my response to LoneLaugher, CC.  You can pretend it was addressed to you.


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## LoneLaugher (Sep 19, 2013)

Foxfyre said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > Foxfyre said:
> ...



The guy you most admire is a joke. You really should stop.


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## daws101 (Sep 19, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> daws101 said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...


I got everything right....the country you imagine never existed.
I'm as american as you, more so actually because I truly understand the meaning of these words: WE THE PEOPLE...


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## Foxfyre (Sep 19, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



Well let's see.  Mark Levin's biography and credentials versus LoneLaugher's biography:




> Mark Levin was born on September 21, 1957. He served as advisor to the Ronald Reagan Cabinet, since 1981, before becoming Associate Director of Presidential Personnel. Levin has also served as Attorney General Edwin Meese's Chief of Staff, Deputy Assistant Secretary at the US Department of Education, and Deputy Lawyer at the US Interior Department, before exhibiting his expertise in evaluating the nation's political and educational sojourn. His genius in handling legal issues and probing into the working of the private sector comes from his exposure to the related fields during his tenure as President of the Landmark Legal Foundation, Leesburg, Virginia. Mark Levin has a B.A. degree and J.D. from Temple University School of Law.
> Read more at Buzzle: Biography of Mark Levin



His book "Men in Black" re Supreme Court decisions is nothing short of genius.  His book 'Liberty and Tyranny: A Conservative Manifesto' made the NY Times best seller list in March 2009 and the last time I looked, it is still there.

Now perhaps you would share your verifiable expertise and credentials that gives you authority to judge Mark Levin's scholarship and explain why you should be considered the more accomplished authority on the legal aspects of the healthcare law than what he offers.


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## LoneLaugher (Sep 19, 2013)

Nice try. I'm just a dude with a BA and a successful business. 

But I know when a person is being sold a bill of goods. And tht person is you. 

I have heard that asshole's show enough to know tht he is a salesman.....and is selling you on his "expertise". He is loud and rude. Not much else. 

I would love to be proven wrong....please link to a video of him debating someone with chops. I can't see him doing very well against someone who isn't a shill. 

Here is something I found while looking fr said debate. Enjoy. He is really not the intellectual superstar that HE HS TOLD YOU HE IS. 

Cutting The Mike On Critics


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## daws101 (Sep 19, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> daws101 said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...


that's a self centered dodge.. and you want props for doing what less egocentric people would consider  a "go's with the territory" job of parenting. 
it's not serving the greater good. do you spend any of your free time helping the poor or the disabled?
I do all those things and more. 
 my guess is you do nothing that does not serve your own inflated self interest.  
 as to what your children  do or do not believe ,that will change.


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## LoneLaugher (Sep 19, 2013)

Hey Fox, 

I wonder if you have ever heard or read Levin say something that was wrong, in your opinion? Have you any examples of you disagreeing with him on something? Maybe an example where his rhetoric was too much? Maybe where he is a bit overly dramatic?

Any? Please.....


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## EriktheRed (Sep 19, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Hey Fox,
> 
> I wonder if you have ever heard or read Levin say something that was wrong, in your opinion? Have you any examples of you disagreeing with him on something? Maybe an example where his rhetoric was too much? Maybe where he is a bit overly dramatic?
> 
> Any? Please.....



"Where he is a bit overly dramatic"??

Aw, that ain't fair; that would cover WAY too much material for her to sort through.


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## Camp (Sep 19, 2013)

Foxfyre said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > Foxfyre said:
> ...



He has the resume of a political hack ass kisser. Honestly, that is what his resume looks like he has done. Taken important sounding jobs that are nothing more than hack jobs made for guys who will say yes when they are told to. Best seller books at one time meant something. Now we know organizations buy them in bulk and end up selling them for next to nothing at conventions. Sometimes they can't even sell them, so they give them away as gifts. BTW, when he was a deputy lawyer at the Interior Dept. a crap load of laws were being broken that ended up seeing the Sec. of the Interior convicted and sent to prison.


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## LoneLaugher (Sep 19, 2013)

Here is a good one. 

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=e_LhzsBQa6E

Was he right, Fox?


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## Snookie (Sep 19, 2013)

Foxfyre said:


> Nobody says it better than Mark Levin said it this past week:
> 
> Mark Levin?s EPIC Monologue on Republicans Being Forced to Defund ObamaCare - Fox Nation



"Forced to defund?"  "American people."  Which american people?

BTW, since obamacare health care costs have risen less than they have in years.  Mk?


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## Amelia (Sep 19, 2013)

Snookie said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> > Nobody says it better than Mark Levin said it this past week:
> ...




Ever hear of  the recession?


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## LoneLaugher (Sep 19, 2013)

Health care costs and health insurance premiums went up every year for a decade prior to the recession and during the recession. What is your point?

Doing nothing about the rising cost of health care in this country was not an option. 

When is the best time to plant a tree?


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## Foxfyre (Sep 19, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Nice try. I'm just a dude with a BA and a successful business.
> 
> But I know when a person is being sold a bill of goods. And tht person is you.
> 
> ...



Sorry but I've seen too many of your posts, along with your inability to formulate a single argument that doesn't come off some leftwing propaganda site, to believe you have much more than a HS education, if that, or that you have ever been a manager, much less a successful business owner, is a real stretch.

Since you are usually incapable of supporting your own comments here at USMB with anything from credible sources, I won't comment further until you do.  Though I would bet very good money that Levin would hold his own against ANYBODY in a debate, I don't see how his debate skills have anything at all to do with his level of expertise on anything.


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## LoneLaugher (Sep 19, 2013)

Foxfyre said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > Nice try. I'm just a dude with a BA and a successful business.
> ...



You are butthurt. I have exposed you as a fraud here several times. This play of yours.....questioning my honesty in regards to my education and occupation...is lame. I will answer any question that you can think of that would "stump" me regarding my education and business. Go ahead, dummy. Fire away. 

I have asked you a few questions here. I don't expect you to answer, PROFESSOR. You never answer direct questions. Instead....you do what you just did in this post. You bullshit. 

You claim that you are a PAID LECTURER. I call bullshit. You can talk.....that is for certain. You bloviate with the best of them. But I defy you to prove that anyone has ever paid you to wax political. I am pretty sure that you are a liar. 

And....idolizing LEVIN? That is a giveaway. You should end that practice if you want future forum members to buy your bullshit.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 19, 2013)

daws101 said:


> that's a self centered dodge.. and you want props for doing what less egocentric people would consider  a "go's with the territory" job of parenting.
> it's not serving the greater good. do you spend any of your free time helping the poor or the disabled?
> I do all those things and more.
> my guess is you do nothing that does not serve your own inflated self interest.
> as to what your children  do or do not believe ,that will change.



I call bull shit.  People who demand government welfare programs, such as Obama Care, as a replacement to charity, such as Free Clinics, are not people who actually provide charity for people outside of government.  Stealing money from peter to give funds to paul is not charity.  Further, people who do things for others out of the kindness of their hearts don't come to internet web sites looking to brag about it or accuse conservatives, for christ sake, of being uncharitable.  My god, what the fuck is wrong with you?

As to you your vicious attack on my children's moral compass, screw you, your kind will never hold sway on me OR my family members.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 19, 2013)

Foxfyre said:


> I would bet very good money that Levin would hold his own against ANYBODY in a debate, I don't see how his debate skills have anything at all to do with his level of expertise on anything.


Huh?

Debate is a skill requiring expertise.  Mr. Levin's debate skills are juvenile at best.  He screams and hits the mute button, hangs up on the person debating with him then goes into a soliloquy rant explaining how stupid the debater was, all the while completely ignoring all salient points about the argument.   He's a mean old fart, with a passion for war hawk republicans.


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## Bfgrn (Sep 19, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



Here are some FACTS for ignorant turds like you...

47 MILLIONthe number of Americans for whom Medicare provides comprehensive health care

51 PERCENTthe number of Americans 65 or older who did not have health care before Medicare was passed, while today virtually all elderly Americans have health care thanks to Medicare

30 PERCENTthe number of elderly Americans who lived in poverty before Medicare, a number now reduced to 7.5 PERCENT

72 PERCENTthe number of Americans in a recent poll who said that Medicare is extremely or very important to their retirement security

Medicare assures health care for seniors who might otherwise find health care inaccessible. It saves our government money. It makes the lives of our seniors better.

Two concepts inspired Medicare. First, seniors require more care than younger Americans. Second, seniors usually live on less income; many survive only on Social Security. This combination renders seniors extremely vulnerable to losing their savings, homes or lives from easily treatable diseases.

And Medicare provides good care. American life expectancy at birth ranks 30th in the world. We remain 30th for the rest of our lives -- until we reach 65. Then, our rank rises until we reach 14th at 80. We can thank the remarkable access to health care provided by Medicare.

Every industrialized nation guarantees health care for seniors. Indeed, we are unhappily distinctive in being the only industrialized nation that does not guarantee care for everyone else, as well. Medicare restores us to a civilized status.

Before Medicare, only 40 percent of nonworking seniors had health insurance, and of those with coverage, private insurance paid for less than 10 percent of their hospital bills. The principle of insuring only the healthy who consume little care and avoiding the sick has always driven our private insurance industry. No insurance company can make money by offering the same comprehensive, affordable coverage to seniors as Medicare, so they don't offer it. Our experience with Medicare Advantage, an effort to privatize parts of Medicare, resulted in our government spending $17 billion more for the same benefits available through Medicare. Our private insurance industry was in no hurry to insure seniors before Medicare started. They are in no hurry now. Medicare revolutionized health care access for seniors.

Why is Medicare expensive? Simply, health care for seniors will always cost more than that of healthier, younger Americans. And costs are rising in every health care system around the world, not just Medicare. The United States is doubly cursed because our costs are rising faster and are already twice as expensive as other countries. Though hard to believe, Medicare is a leader in fighting cost increases. Private insurance industry costs are rising nearly twice as fast as those of Medicare. And when it comes to administrative expenses, private insurance is 10 times higher than Medicare. In fact, if the single payer financing of Medicare were applied to citizens of all ages, we would save $350 billion annually, more than enough to provide comprehensive health care to every American.

Medicare is good for our seniors and good for our country. It provides health care far more affordably and efficiently than our private insurance industry. It saves our country hundreds of billions of dollars in administrative overhead. And if we expand Medicare to cover younger, healthier Americans, we would all get more care at less cost. 

More


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## Bfgrn (Sep 19, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Mr Clean said:
> 
> 
> > If Obamacare was in fact the giant clusterfuck the conservatives are claiming, and if the repubs had any brains at all, they'd let it run it's course and then use the disaster as ammo in the upcoming elections.
> ...



REALLY????????

Republicans were well aware that health care reform was paramount to repairing our economy and protecting the financial security of American families. McCain, and Republicans ALSO ran on promising health care reforms.

But Republicans made a conscious and collective decision to block and undermine any reform. Because it would be seen as a success for our President.

David Frum, the Republican and former economic speechwriter for George W. Bush was fired by the American Enterprise Institute for writing this op-ed, a right wing think tank whose 'scholars' ironically were ordered not to speak to the media on the subject of health care reform, because they agreed with too much of what Obama was trying to do.

Waterloo
by David Frum

At the beginning of this process we made a strategic decision: unlike, say, Democrats in 2001 when President Bush proposed his first tax cut, we would make no deal with the administration. No negotiations, no compromise, nothing. We were going for all the marbles. This would be Obamas Waterloo  just as healthcare was Clintons in 1994.

This time, when we went for all the marbles, we ended with none.

Could a deal have been reached? Who knows? But we do know that the gap between this plan and traditional Republican ideas is not very big. The Obama plan has a broad family resemblance to Mitt Romneys Massachusetts plan. It builds on ideas developed at the Heritage Foundation in the early 1990s that formed the basis for Republican counter-proposals to Clintoncare in 1993-1994.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The final irony:
The health care bill Obama and Democrats passed was not the reform liberals and progressives sought. It was and IS a carbon copy of the Republican bills proposed by Senator John Chafee, (R-R.I) and Senate Minority Leader Bob Dole in the early 1990's. Including the conservative idea...the individual mandate.[


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## RKMBrown (Sep 19, 2013)

Bfgrn said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Mr Clean said:
> ...


Everything you said... IS A LIE.

>> Republicans were well aware that health care reform was paramount to repairing our economy 

Lie.

>> and protecting the financial security of American families. 

Lie.

>> McCain, and Republicans ALSO ran on promising health care reforms.

McCain is a socialist.  Obamacare is the OPPOSITE OF REFORM.  It is DEFORM.

>> But Republicans made a conscious and collective decision to block and undermine any reform. Because it would be seen as a success for our President.

LIAR

>> David Frum, the Republican and former economic speechwriter for George W. Bush was fired by the American Enterprise Institute for writing this op-ed, a right wing think tank whose 'scholars' ironically were ordered not to speak to the media on the subject of health care reform, because they agreed with too much of what Obama was trying to do.

GW was also a socialist.  So is Frum.

>> The health care bill Obama and Democrats passed was not the reform liberals and progressives sought. It was and IS a carbon copy of the Republican bills proposed by Senator John Chafee, (R-R.I) and Senate Minority Leader Bob Dole in the early 1990's. Including the conservative idea...the individual mandate.

More socialists.  Screw you.


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## Bfgrn (Sep 19, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



Keep emoting while I fucking hand you your tiny little head.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 19, 2013)

Bfgrn said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Bfgrn said:
> ...



Shut up and get back on the OP you POS.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 19, 2013)

Bfgrn said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Bfgrn said:
> ...



SS/Medicare is not welfare for the elderly you ignorant POS.  It's re-payment for they money they put in.  Course they don't get it back with interest as we used a stupid ponzi scheme to fund it.


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## Foxfyre (Sep 19, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> > I would bet very good money that Levin would hold his own against ANYBODY in a debate, I don't see how his debate skills have anything at all to do with his level of expertise on anything.
> ...



I have up close and personal knowledge of what debate skills are.  And I still don't see a correlation between that and knowing your stuff about Obamacare.

Everybody has an opinion about everybody, and everybody doesn't necessarily love Levin or else they would be tuning into his show and tuning out everybody else in that time slot.    I can count the times I've tuned into his radio show on less than one hand, so I don't know if what you're saying is accurate or not.  I have not witnessed a 'mean old fart' in the few times I've heard him.  But I have heard him speak, I have heard him articulate an argument without notes, and I have read what he writes.  

But just in case you are confused about it, a radio talk show, whether left or right wing,  is NOT debate and is not marketed as such.


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## SuMar (Sep 20, 2013)

ClosedCaption said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > In the previously deleted thread, all the Authoritarian scumbags were delighted that I'd be forced to get foodstamps and medicaid.
> ...



How is it when an employer cuts hours or even lay-off workers that the worker is lazy? He did say he would have to get a second job.


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## LoneLaugher (Sep 20, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



Brownie.....your posting style sometimes transforms as the night goes on. I wonder what could be the cause of that.


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## JoeB131 (Sep 20, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Bfgrn said:
> ...


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## eagle1462010 (Sep 20, 2013)

New Obamacare Database Could Mean More IRS-Style Scandals - US News and World Report

 In spite of the blatant, political corruption at the IRS, the Obama administration is moving full steam ahead with Obamacare,* a law that gives unprecedented new access and powers to bureaucrats at the IRS and at least four other federal government agencies*. Is that really going to undo the cynicism we have about government and protect Americans from further targeting? Consider the potential for abuse with Obamacare's mystery *Federal Data Services Hub,* *"the largest personal information database the government has ever attempted,"* according to the Wall Street Journal.

For the purposes of implementing and enforcing Obamacare, the Department of Health and Human Services through regulatory fiat is building this Hub, *a web portal where personal information such as medical records, tax and financial information, criminal background and immigration status will be shared and transmitted between agencies, including the IRS, HHS, the Department of Justice, the Department of Homeland Security and the Social Security Administration as well as state governments. *

Despite being only four months from Obamacare open enrollment, even the most basic questions about the Data Hub have yet to be answered. For instance, which agencies will have access to what information in it; will government employees, contractors and third parties have access; and what training and security clearances  if any  are required for these individuals.


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## eagle1462010 (Sep 20, 2013)

The Great Federal Data Services Hub.  Which doesn't even work yet, so much so that this requirement has been delayed because key elements can't communicate with it yet.  Every Health agency and provider Nationwide has to upgrade their computer systems to communicate with it, which is required by the law.

This to SAVE MONEY, but implementation is costing the Gov't BILLIONS and the private sector unknown amounts of money.

Your personal data, will be there.  Whether it be a Doctor's visit or trip to the office.  These are required to log in and report that you received Medical Treatment into the system.  I've seen this in action already with my daughter.  The Nurses complaining about the dang reporting systems they are trying to set up so they can log your visit.

And of course, the Libs will say, this is for your own good.  I'm sure the Hackers and the identity thieves will love the Damn thing.

A Nationwide net, with THOUSANDS OF MEDICAL FACILITIES LOGGING INTO IT.  A fucking nightmare.

But our records will be safe RIGHT...................................


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## JoeB131 (Sep 20, 2013)

eagle1462010 said:


> The Great Federal Data Services Hub.  Which doesn't even work yet, so much so that this requirement has been delayed because key elements can't communicate with it yet.  Every Health agency and provider Nationwide has to upgrade their computer systems to communicate with it, which is required by the law.
> 
> This to SAVE MONEY, but implementation is costing the Gov't BILLIONS and the private sector unknown amounts of money.
> 
> ...



yes, somewhere out there, a hacker wants to find out about that drug you are taking for erectile dysfunction...


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## eagle1462010 (Sep 20, 2013)

The HHS Data Hub, Does Private Information Exist in America? | Ben Swann Reality Check

hen individuals sign up for federal insurance exchanges, they are required to enter their personal information into a new* Federal Data Hub*. We are talking about information like medical records, Social Security numbers, tax information, and bank account information.  This is done by allowing seven government agencies, including the IRS, Department of Justice, Social Security Administration and others, to share and verify information in order to determine eligibility for an insurance subsidy.

In short, basically everything about you will be shared among multiple agencies.  Remember, no actually agency can see or access any information, people working in those agencies do.  *So who, specifically, will be able to access this information?*

*They are called Navigators.*  Men and women who are being hired to work for between $20 and $48 dollars an hour.  Sounds like specialized work that will required highly trained individuals, but, not so much.  The requirements to become one of these navigators do not even include a high school diploma. * And even though these navigators will have access to just about every piece of personal information on Americans enrolled in this exchange, they are not even required to pass a background check.*

That is what the house committee on oversight and government reform has been told by HHS.

*Navigators will only have to take a 20 to 30 hour online course about how the 1,200 page ACA works.*

Interestingly, there is another role of these navigators that deserves a mention.  There is more to the role of the Navigators than just signing Americans up for the healthcare exchange.

These Navigators will also be responsible for registering Americans to vote. According to People&#8217;s World Magazine in California,

*Comment*

These HIGHLY SKILLED NAVIGATORS with intensive training will have total access to your private records.

20 to 30 hours of training

LMAO  You just can't make this shit up.


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## mudwhistle (Sep 20, 2013)

Bfgrn said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Bfgrn said:
> ...



So what do we need Obamacare for?


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## mudwhistle (Sep 20, 2013)

Obama took $700 billion from Medicare last year to help pay for Obamacare.

WTF????


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## eagle1462010 (Sep 20, 2013)

JoeB131 said:


> eagle1462010 said:
> 
> 
> > The Great Federal Data Services Hub.  Which doesn't even work yet, so much so that this requirement has been delayed because key elements can't communicate with it yet.  Every Health agency and provider Nationwide has to upgrade their computer systems to communicate with it, which is required by the law.
> ...



And somewhere out there they are looking for your brain, which was lost to drugs in the 60's.

I imagine you, not as your avatar, but as a hippie freak taking delusional drugs during the time.

And as usual, you do not address the subject.  

The Data Hub doesn't WORK YET.  It has been delayed, aka the mandate, for a year because the Health Facilities can't communicate with the damn thing.

But pointing out that fact doesn't concern you, as you want more Gov't and they can be trusted with our PRIVATE DATA.

It's the usual GIANT RED TAPE MACHINE of the Federal Gov't.  The right hand will not know what the Left hand is doing as usual, but this time with the LARGEST DATA HUB IN OUR HISTORY.


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## eagle1462010 (Sep 20, 2013)

mudwhistle said:


> Obama took $700 billion from Medicare last year to help pay for Obamacare.
> 
> WTF????



Not in 1 year.  That is the projection for a 10 year period in projected cuts.

The only difference is they closed the Donut hole for about 50 Billion.

It is the Medicare Advantage Program primarily.  Which 10's of Millions of our Seniors use to get supplemental insurance which is Subsidized through the Gov't.  Which means these Seniors will eventually lose this added benefit even though they are in the HIGH MAINTENANCE AREA OF HEALTH CARE.

If you remember the debates.  This is the SAVINGS THE DEMS YELLED ABOUT, then they called it a REVENUE AS WELL.

All of it BEING A LIE, as they throw GRANDMA and GRANDPA under the bus.


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## MeBelle (Sep 20, 2013)

Bfgrn said:


> Here are some FACTS ...
> More



Since when did an *Opinion* Editorial (OPED) become fact?


Since Never.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 20, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Bfgrn said:
> ...



I don't have patience for folks like bfg, not while they are cut and pasting democrat talking points that are blatant lies.  Using a handful of events from the furthest left republicans there ever were as evidence that republicans love this methodical government take over of our health care system, is beyond the pale.  That would be like me blaming democrats on the no child left behind republican fiasco.


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## eagle1462010 (Sep 20, 2013)

Home Deport sends 20,000 employees to Obamacare | The Daily Caller

It's Fact, Not Anecdote, That ObamaCare Is Turning Us Into A Part-Time Nation - Forbes

Loren Goodridge, the owner of 21 Subway franchises, says he has no choice but to cut the hours of his employees to 29 a week to avoid the law&#8217;s penalties.

Bureau of Labor Statistics data show that the ratio of part-time to full-time jobs has completely flipped this year from historical trends.  Last year, six full-time jobs were created for every one part time job.  This year, only one full-time job is being created for every four new part-time jobs.


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## eagle1462010 (Sep 20, 2013)

Obama promised America Change we can Believe in.........................

To transform America into something  so much better.........................


AND NOW Americans that used to work 40 hours a week will NO LONGER HAVE TO SUFFER THAT INJUSTICE.

You see, Obama and the Dems understand that you need your relaxation and quite time.  So they have decided by the ACA that you will NOW ONLY HAVE TO WORK LESS THAN 30 HOURS.

Damn,  it just gives me GOOSE PIMPLES.

Take this Lowes employee for instance...............I used to work 40 hours and had no time to be with my 8 children from 4 different ladies, but thanks to Obama I have 4 days off a week and can see each of my families 1 day a week now.

Thanks Obama, and don't tell them I'm still doing all 4 of them.  And stop posting on the Hub that you keep giving me free rubbers............

Obama is great isn't he.  

Now rush over and put your picture and personal data on the Federal Hub.  We promise you we will not abuse your personal data..............excuse me, the door bell.......The IRS is auditing me for being a Conservative again...............But they are righteous.

Stay tuned next week, as Obama says......................IT'S NOT MY FAULT.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 20, 2013)

Foxfyre said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Foxfyre said:
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He advertises it as debate on his show.  He markets for debate with the people that disagree with his view, then when someone is dumb enough to call in with a differing opinion he hangs up on them screaming at them.  If someone calls in with the "same" opinion and pats his back, he speaks lovingly to them and sends them free gifts.

As to his knowledge about OboCare I have no idea.

His books are good.  The parts I like best are the ones where he copied the works of the formers of our nation, albeit editing their works slightly to rephrase them into current vernacular. 

As to his articulation and knowledge... yeah he's definitely not an idiot, nor is he the genius he purports himself to be.  But he does speak and read well.  You'll note if you hear him that when the subject material gets just a bit more in-depth he goes to a slightly different intonation as he begins reading from his notes.

IMO the reason he starts yelling at callers who disagree is that he does not have the "particular" notes prepared to refute their argument in an articulate manner.  That or he sees them as a BFG type guy who would not understand his response.  But he's not just talking to the caller, he's on the radio where others can hear and who may also agree, in part if not whole, some of the argument.  

I suppose, that's why I should have more patience for BFG? sigh...


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## eagle1462010 (Sep 20, 2013)

Presidential Debate Prep: Understanding Obamacare's $716 Billion in Cuts to Medicare | The Foundry: Conservative Policy News Blog from The Heritage Foundation

As the Medicare debate intensifies, there still seems to be popular confusion regarding the $716 billion in &#8220;savings&#8221; from Obamacare&#8217;s Medicare payment cuts. Let us end the confusion.
Which Parts of Medicare Will Be Cut?
In Obamacare, the payment cuts are across-the-board cuts (modifications of Medicare&#8217;s complex payment formulas) made throughout the bulk of the Medicare program. According to the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office (CBO), these cuts will decrease Medicare spending by an estimated $716 billion between 2013 and 2022.
The money is cut from hospital services, Medicare Advantage, skilled nursing services, hospice services, and other Medicare services. To be clear, the cuts do not target individual institutions or medical organizations suspected of waste, fraud, or abuse.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 20, 2013)

eagle1462010 said:


> Presidential Debate Prep: Understanding Obamacare's $716 Billion in Cuts to Medicare | The Foundry: Conservative Policy News Blog from The Heritage Foundation
> 
> As the Medicare debate intensifies, there still seems to be popular confusion regarding the $716 billion in &#8220;savings&#8221; from Obamacare&#8217;s Medicare payment cuts. Let us end the confusion.
> Which Parts of Medicare Will Be Cut?
> ...



Translation... the costs for health care are going to be transferred by "law" from medicare patients to private health insurance plans who will get to pay "extra" to keep the health care industry afloat.

Don't you just love a system where five different customers get to pay five different prices for the same services?  Free to illegals, negotiated to cash customers, negotiated to medicare and medicaid customers, Subsidized high cost to government tax payer funded health care under Obuma Care, and lastly health insurance negotiated prices.


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## Snookie (Sep 20, 2013)

eagle1462010 said:


> New Obamacare Database Could Mean More IRS-Style Scandals - US News and World Report
> 
> In spite of the blatant, political corruption at the IRS, the Obama administration is moving full steam ahead with Obamacare,* a law that gives unprecedented new access and powers to bureaucrats at the IRS and at least four other federal government agencies*. Is that really going to undo the cynicism we have about government and protect Americans from further targeting? Consider the potential for abuse with Obamacare's mystery *Federal Data Services Hub,* *"the largest personal information database the government has ever attempted,"* according to the Wall Street Journal.
> 
> ...


Paranoid scare tactic rant^.

Cruz punks out on stopping obama care by shutting down the gov.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 20, 2013)

mudwhistle said:


> So what do we need Obamacare for?



Obamacare is money redistribution program to generate democrat voters.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 20, 2013)

Snookie said:


> eagle1462010 said:
> 
> 
> > New Obamacare Database Could Mean More IRS-Style Scandals - US News and World Report
> ...


You say that like shutting down the government is a bad thing.


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## Snookie (Sep 20, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> eagle1462010 said:
> 
> 
> > Presidential Debate Prep: Understanding Obamacare's $716 Billion in Cuts to Medicare | The Foundry: Conservative Policy News Blog from The Heritage Foundation
> ...



Just think of the money that will be saved by indigent  people who will no longer have to go to the emergency rooms for health care.  Just think of the money that will be saved by preventive medicine.

My sister-in-law died a few years ago because, even though she worked hard, could not afford health care.  She could not afford a doctor.

A prescription for insulin would have saved her life.

I guess republicans prefer natural selection to be the doctrine of health care.


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## Snookie (Sep 20, 2013)

eagle1462010 said:


> mudwhistle said:
> 
> 
> > Obama took $700 billion from Medicare last year to help pay for Obamacare.
> ...



So you are saying that because of obamacare that seniors will lose the part B benefits.  the law that Bush is credited with creating?  Could you back up your assertion with facts?


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## RKMBrown (Sep 20, 2013)

Snookie said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > eagle1462010 said:
> ...



That sucks.  Sorry for your loss.  Sorry that she could not get to a free clinic, or a charity, or family, or medicaid, or a hospital in time.  Most doctors I know will take a look at a patient in need and worry about payment later.  Most doctors can get someone that needs free insulin into a free testing program.  I think a lot of people, like me, just don't like to go to the doc, whether it is covered or not.  I also know a lot of family members that would not ask for family help out of pride.  I suppose for "these" few health care from the government would remove the indignity of having to ask for help.


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## Snookie (Sep 20, 2013)

MeBelle60 said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > Here are some FACTS ...
> ...



I hate to gett picky, picky, picky with someone as nice as you but many opinions did become facts.  Maybe you meant to ask, How many opinions are facts?


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## Snookie (Sep 20, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Snookie said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
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It does take time to get an appointment to a free clinic, even though they are not known for the best health care.  Many people who work are not eligible for free clinics.

You are better off if you are a non working  dope addict or an alcoholic.


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## dblack (Sep 20, 2013)

Snookie said:


> You are better off if you are a non working  dope addict or an alcoholic.



It's funny how often it works out like that these days. I wonder if we'll let them do the same thing to the food supply?


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## Snookie (Sep 20, 2013)

dblack said:


> Snookie said:
> 
> 
> > You are better off if you are a non working  dope addict or an alcoholic.
> ...



They might already be doing that with food stamps.  There are a lot of dead beats getting them.

 used to do building trades work in hospitals.  It seems they always put me to work doing alterations and repairs in the psyche ward.  I guess because I got along with them so well and sort of fitted in.

I got to know a lot of the patients there.  One woman in particular was a crack head.  She would get to a point where she was almost dead from drugs and then get herself admitted into the ward.

I would see her when she first came in all burned out.  When she left she was always rosy cheeked and healthy again.  They had great food there.

I would see her, in and out, in and out, in and out, at taxpayers expense.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 20, 2013)

Snookie said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Snookie said:
> ...



Don't know about where you live, but In my experience it does not take time to get an appointment to a free clinic, a paid clinic, a hospital, or a doctor.  But it does take effort.

I have health care but if I don't "go" to the doctor I can't be diagnosed.  

FYI even with "health insurance" you need an appointment for non emergencies.


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## eagle1462010 (Sep 20, 2013)

Fact Check on the Impact of New Medicare Advantage Cuts on Seniors | AHIP Coverage

Yes, Millions of Seniors will get the cuts.  CBO data as well on this article.

Yes, the Dems are throwing Grandma and Grandpa under the bus.  As RK has already stated, they are taking from one group of people to give to others.

Robbing Peter to pay paul.

Scare tactics and rants. LOL

The Data Hub is real, and will require all to put their data on it.  PERIOD.  So THOUSANDS can get into the Hub in order to report to the gov't services rendered.  

But, We shouldn't be worried about that as WE CAN TRUST BIG BROTHER GOV'T.


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## eagle1462010 (Sep 20, 2013)

Back on topic.

We shown data about America from many sources including BLS data moving the trend of American Business to PART TIME because of the ACA.

Are ANY OF YOU LIBS DENYING THIS?


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## eagle1462010 (Sep 20, 2013)

Congressional Budget Office Confirms Democrats? Health Bill Slashes Medicare Benefits by $816 for Millions of Seniors | House Committee on Ways & Means

 CBO confirmed that if these cuts take effect, 4.8 million fewer seniors will be enrolled in these plans in 2019.  So much for the oft-repeated promise of being able to keep what you like.

Furthermore, CBO notes that &#8220;Medicare Advantage plans &#8230;provide their enrollees with extra benefits&#8221; that traditional Medicare does not offer (e.g. dental and vision coverage, reduced copayments, lower premiums, etc.).  However, because of Democrats&#8217; drastic Medicare cuts, the non-partisan CBO predicts the value of extra benefits received by seniors enrolled in MA will be slashed by $816, on average, in 2019. So much for the Democrats&#8217; claim that their Medicare cuts won&#8217;t harm seniors health benefits.


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## eagle1462010 (Sep 20, 2013)

These Liberal posters need a reality check.  They always demand links to known problems and just change the Damn Subject or SHIFT BLAME.

I've again shown sources that confirm the cuts. 

But Hey, if you like your coverage you get to keep it right.................BS.....................

I've already posted another cbo article projecting 7 MILLION LOSING THEIR COVERAGE.

I've posted the Unions stating that the ACA needs fixing because their employees are getting cut to Part Time.

I've already posted data on key elements being delayed for a year.......


Liberals don't care about the facts.  They rule by emotion instead, and disregard the facts regarding the ACA.  They then change the subject and say it's already broken so our BROKEN POS IS STILL BETTER.

Ridiculous.


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## eagle1462010 (Sep 20, 2013)

CBO Forecast: 1.4% GDP, 8% Unemployment, 7 Million to Lose Health Insurance

The Congressional Budget Office's just-released economic forecast for 2013 is dispiriting, to say the least. T*he GDP is expected to grow by only 1.4%, the unemployment rate will "stay near" 8%, the deficit will reach $845 billion, and ObamaCare will cost 7 million their health insurance.*

And just look at us now.

After four years of Obamanomics and heading into five, poverty is up, the GDP is in negative territory, incomes are falling, and the deficit, according to the non-partisan GAO, is unsustainable.

And yet, just this Sunday, there was Obama on "60 Minutes" intentionally crippling the economy with more uncertainty with talk of new tax increases.

*But it's a beautiful thing to be Obama, because none of this matters. Facts don't matter. Reality doesn&#8217;t matter. Not when you have a media that calls economic failure a "recovery," blames a drop in GDP on a lack of government largesse, and tells us that an increase in the unemployment rate is positive news.*


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## eagle1462010 (Sep 20, 2013)

Part Time Workers Add to BLS Jobs Data Confusion

n 2013, the total number of full-time jobs gained have been 340k, while the total number of part-time jobs gained have been 497k. This means that of the 837k total jobs added in 2013, the portion of jobs added that are part-time is 59.4%.

Since July 2007, the number of full-time jobs have declined by 4.481 million, while part-time jobs have increased by 2.564 million.


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## Snookie (Sep 20, 2013)

eagle1462010 said:


> Congressional Budget Office Confirms Democrats? Health Bill Slashes Medicare Benefits by $816 for Millions of Seniors | House Committee on Ways & Means
> 
> CBO confirmed that if these cuts take effect, 4.8 million fewer seniors will be enrolled in these plans in 2019.  So much for the oft-repeated promise of being able to keep what you like.
> 
> Furthermore, CBO notes that Medicare Advantage plans provide their enrollees with extra benefits that traditional Medicare does not offer (e.g. dental and vision coverage, reduced copayments, lower premiums, etc.).  However, because of Democrats drastic Medicare cuts, the non-partisan CBO predicts the value of extra benefits received by seniors enrolled in MA will be slashed by $816, on average, in 2019. So much for the Democrats claim that their Medicare cuts wont harm seniors health benefits.



We will belong to China by 2019.  It's Nixon's fault.


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## Snookie (Sep 20, 2013)

eagle1462010 said:


> CBO Forecast: 1.4% GDP, 8% Unemployment, 7 Million to Lose Health Insurance
> 
> The Congressional Budget Office's just-released economic forecast for 2013 is dispiriting, to say the least. T*he GDP is expected to grow by only 1.4%, the unemployment rate will "stay near" 8%, the deficit will reach $845 billion, and ObamaCare will cost 7 million their health insurance.*
> 
> ...



Predictions are not facts.  WMD.


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## Amelia (Sep 20, 2013)

Snookie said:


> eagle1462010 said:
> 
> 
> > CBO Forecast: 1.4% GDP, 8% Unemployment, 7 Million to Lose Health Insurance
> ...




Wish the media kept this in mind and critically examined the manipulated predictions which let Democrats portray Obamacare as anything but another expensive government bureaucracy to drag us down.


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## Snookie (Sep 20, 2013)

Amelia said:


> Snookie said:
> 
> 
> > eagle1462010 said:
> ...


That's an opinionated prediction.


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## dblack (Sep 20, 2013)

Snookie said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Snookie said:
> ...



That's not really what I was getting at. 'Dead beats' are simply the unfortunate pawns in this game.

I'm talking about the trend of pursuing policy that inflates prices for necessary goods and services. Its facilitated, arguably promoted, by well-intentioned welfare programs, but in the end creates a situation (like we're now facing with health care) where _most_ of us can't afford the basics.


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## Snookie (Sep 20, 2013)

dblack said:


> Snookie said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...


  I believe monopolies cause that.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 20, 2013)

Snookie said:


> dblack said:
> 
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> > Snookie said:
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Which party is proposing to break up said monopolies that are off-shoring our labor and thus, in part, offshoring our ability as a workforce to fund our health care?


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## Foxfyre (Sep 20, 2013)

The House just completed a successful vote to defund Obamacare for now.   There is no chance Harry Reid will bring it to the floor for debate, much less a vote, but that would be a blessing amidst the chaos if he would.  The only way he will is if the American people exert enough pressure, but the media won't play it up enough so that most folks will even know it happened.


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## dblack (Sep 20, 2013)

Snookie said:


> dblack said:
> 
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> > Snookie said:
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And cartels, which is essentially what PPACA creates (or rather, formalizes). Centralized control will always attract those with the most to gain from controlling people.


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## daws101 (Sep 20, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> daws101 said:
> 
> 
> > that's a self centered dodge.. and you want props for doing what less egocentric people would consider  a "go's with the territory" job of parenting.
> ...


lol! if you are calling bullshit it should be on yourself.
once again, this post is a dodge stuffed to the gills with intentional misrepresentation of the ACA ,THE PRES  myself. 
what you call a vicious attack is nothing more than a statement of fact, your kids attitude will change, it was not a dig at their "moral compass".
in my experience people who use such phrases have moral issues of their own   
the only braggart here is you.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 20, 2013)

daws101 said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > daws101 said:
> ...



Says the jerk with the Hitlar avatar.


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## daws101 (Sep 20, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> daws101 said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...


that's not a hitler avatar.
it is however a fine representation of what the GOP is morphing into.
just for laughs please explain what "your kind" means?


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## RKMBrown (Sep 20, 2013)

daws101 said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > daws101 said:
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Get back on the OP, get some help you appear to need Obama care drastically, oh and pull my finger.


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## eagle1462010 (Sep 20, 2013)

daws101 said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > daws101 said:
> ...



It's not serving the greater good...............LOL

The Battle Charge of the Liberal Brigade.  In this case your children will get the greater good whether they like it or not.

Typical, arrogant, Liberal BS that they must impose their will on others.  It's for your own good, and then they dare say we are the brown shirts and hitler.

Some day, our two sides are going to have a serious disagreement and on that day there will be no more politics at play.


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## eagle1462010 (Sep 20, 2013)

Let's see, no responses to the op.  Except a projection by the CBO isn't really data.  LOL

Well, the CBO does these projections for Congress so they can sell bills.  To calculate the costs associated with new laws.  And to a point, because of their limits on rules, are ALMOST ALWAYS LOWER THAN THE ACTUAL COSTS after a law is passed.  So perhaps I should find another projection site to prove how much worse the ACA actually is going to be.

But of course the Boot Lickers will disavow that data as well.  They don't care about facts and figures only IT FEELS GOOD, kinda like a drug addict going back to the Gov't dole to get another fix.

The ACA is proving to be a pile of shit.  American's don't like the damn thing, and in a Republic the will of the people is supposed to be the purpose of our representatives.  But it isn't.  We know better Leadership as they totally disregard the people and force FOR THEIR OWN GOOD laws down their throats.

If their wasn't a 17th Amendment, the Dems wouldn't own the Senate now.  They should thank their Socialist, marxist leader Wilson for that.


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## eagle1462010 (Sep 20, 2013)

Labor union bosses now freaking out over Obamacare law they pushed for: Full repeal on the way?

Speaking on behalf of his union's 500,000-or-so members, Laborers' International Union of North America president Terry O'Sullivan, for instance, had many a fuming word to say against Obamacare at the recent 2013 annual convention of the AFL-CIO, a federation of labor organizations that represents 57 unions and more than 12 million workers. During his speech, O'Sullivan lamented that Obamacare will destroy union workers' health insurance plans entirely if not "corrected" according to union terms.

"If the 'Affordable Care Act' is not fixed, and it destroys the health and welfare funds that we have all fought for and stand for, then I believe it needs to be repealed," emphasized O'Sullivan during a firm rebuke of the crafty and malicious government scheme. "We can't have the unintended consequences for the proud men and women that we represent to be collateral damage in the healthcare fight in this country."

Other union presidents are apparently in agreement, including Teamsters president Jimmy Hoffa; United Food and Commercial Workers president Joseph Hansen; and UNITE HERE president D. Taylor. Each of these men signed a joint open letter to Democrat Senators Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi, chiding them for breaking their promise to protect union health insurance plans. This comes as the Obama administration denies requests to provide insurance exemptions for union members.

"Since the ACA was enacted, we have been bringing our deep concerns to the Administration, seeking reasonable regulatory interpretations to the statute that would help prevent the destruction of non-profit health plans," reads the scathing letter. "When you and the President sought our support for the Affordable Care Act (ACA), you pledged that if we liked the health plans we have now, we could keep them. Sadly, that promise is under threat."

Learn more: Labor union bosses now freaking out over Obamacare law they pushed for: Full repeal on the way?

*comments*

Pop quiz Liberal Assholes..................

When your favorite Unions turn their hordes on you, who used to be your loyal subjects, WHAT DO YOU DO.............WHAT DO YOU DO.......................

From the movie Speed.  Shoot the hostage....................


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## eagle1462010 (Sep 20, 2013)

shoot the hostage.  Great video from speed.  The Libs are the villians in the clip BTW.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBgl7ps7UQA]Speed Original Trailer (1994) - YouTube[/ame]


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## eagle1462010 (Sep 20, 2013)

Since the Liberal Brigade refuses to engage in real the real battle field of the op, I might as well go off topic as well.  Since the COWARDS refuse to engage us in a straight up fight.  

A straight up fight would be directed at PART TIME AMERICA which is being created by the ACA law and is FUCKING OVER AMERICANS for their OWN GOOD.  Right Liberals................

Lets go to the Hitler Youth Dawes for a second.....................

How dare Conservatives DEMAND a SMALLER Gov't...................

How dare Conservatives DEMAND FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY................

How dare Conservatives DEMAND TAX POLICIES GOOD FOR THE ECONOMY and not for those sucking off Lady LIBERTY until her tits go COMPLETELY FLAT....................

How dare we show proof that the ACA is hurting the economy.................

How dare we show proof that the ECONOMY under Obama SUCKS................

How dare we push for STATE'S RIGHTS................

How dare we push for a Balanced Budget.......................

Yeah you bunch of Morons, we stand for those things and you simply call us Hitler and other BS, because you haven't got a leg to STAND ON REGARDING THE FACTS.....................

So you divert and Lie your asses off, as the people you claim to help GET FUCKED..................

My response to you on this subject is the last 2 words from above..........................

We refuse to allow to let you run our country into the Abyss without a fight...........Get used to and forget the POLITICAL CORRECTNESS BS that you've been pushing for decades.


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## daws101 (Sep 20, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> daws101 said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...


why do you have colorectal problems too?


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## daws101 (Sep 20, 2013)

eagle1462010 said:


> daws101 said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...


if and when that day comes you'll hiding under your bed in a puddle of piss. paper fucking tiger.


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## Snookie (Sep 20, 2013)

Foxfyre said:


> The House just completed a successful vote to defund Obamacare for now.   There is no chance Harry Reid will bring it to the floor for debate, much less a vote, but that would be a blessing amidst the chaos if he would.  The only way he will is if the American people exert enough pressure, but the media won't play it up enough so that most folks will even know it happened.



There is a democratic majority in the senate.  They will never get the necessary votes to pass it.


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## eagle1462010 (Sep 20, 2013)

daws101 said:


> eagle1462010 said:
> 
> 
> > daws101 said:
> ...



LOL


Says the legend in your own mind little Hitler Youth.  You damn internet tough guy.

Where were you during the 80's and the 90's in the Middle East.............Maybe we met somewhere over there..........................

I highly doubt it, because you are so far up Obama's arse, that we see your avatar when he smiles.


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## Snookie (Sep 20, 2013)

daws101 said:


> eagle1462010 said:
> 
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> > daws101 said:
> ...



That was poetic.


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## eagle1462010 (Sep 20, 2013)

Snookie said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> > The House just completed a successful vote to defund Obamacare for now.   There is no chance Harry Reid will bring it to the floor for debate, much less a vote, but that would be a blessing amidst the chaos if he would.  The only way he will is if the American people exert enough pressure, but the media won't play it up enough so that most folks will even know it happened.
> ...



The Power of the Purse, aka THE PEOPLE'S HOUSE, is majority Republican.............

Hell of a job the Founders did in forming the Gov't.  Damn those checks and balances.

STALEMATE..............Your move.


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## daws101 (Sep 20, 2013)

eagle1462010 said:


> daws101 said:
> 
> 
> > eagle1462010 said:
> ...


so you're claiming you were over there .. doing what.
btw that would be reagan or bush or lindsey graham  fascist youth.


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## daws101 (Sep 20, 2013)

eagle1462010 said:


> Snookie said:
> 
> 
> > Foxfyre said:
> ...


wrong it won't pass the senate even if it did the pres would veto it. check and mate!


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## candycorn (Sep 20, 2013)

It was pretty miserable to start with.  You ruined your life.


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## daws101 (Sep 20, 2013)

candycorn said:


> It was pretty miserable to start with.  You ruined your life.


great! back on topic...23 years old and whining that his life is over ..one to many years playing x-box it would seem.


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## eagle1462010 (Sep 20, 2013)

daws101 said:


> eagle1462010 said:
> 
> 
> > daws101 said:
> ...



I served 10 years, including tours in the Gulf.  I was pissing all over myself as you stated hiding under a desk an shit.  Wasn't that your BS post.

So I'm just asking the internet Rambo, aka you, did you serve.


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## eagle1462010 (Sep 20, 2013)

daws101 said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > It was pretty miserable to start with.  You ruined your life.
> ...



As the Liberal Brigade dances on him and those like him in America who are being screwed by the ACA.

Just ignore the data as always, and say it's for your own good.

I think we should let the damn thing go ahead, and let the misery begin with the people so they'll get so mad they'll vote out Dem Senators.................Because they passed this POS bill which is transforming America into a Part Time Economy.

Yeah, real Americans here.

LMAO


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## daws101 (Sep 20, 2013)

eagle1462010 said:


> daws101 said:
> 
> 
> > eagle1462010 said:
> ...


I grew up in a lifer marine household. and no I did not serve as my dad wanted me to go to college besides in 1977 there was no draft and no reason to volunteer.
if true I thank you for your service.
there are lots of kinds of tough in this world..try this on for size there were seven kids in my family and one income I Had my first job a 9 (paper route) and had to give that money over to help feed us.
been on my own since i was 18  worked my way through college to get a masters degree.
so please don't assume you can lecture me on toughness or patriotism.


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## daws101 (Sep 20, 2013)

eagle1462010 said:


> daws101 said:
> 
> 
> > candycorn said:
> ...


he's being fuck by the paranoid propaganda generated by the right and his own lack of wherewithal. 
this time in this country parallels the 1950's atom bomb paranoia.


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## candycorn (Sep 20, 2013)

daws101 said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > It was pretty miserable to start with.  You ruined your life.
> ...



I was devestated when my Sega games weren't compatible with the new system.


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## Amelia (Sep 20, 2013)

Obamacare is the A-bomb of unintended consequences arrogantly unleashed on a country which was yelling "slow down!"


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## daws101 (Sep 20, 2013)

candycorn said:


> daws101 said:
> 
> 
> > candycorn said:
> ...


I went into shock when my favorite arcade games went to fifty cents a pop!


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## daws101 (Sep 20, 2013)

Amelia said:


> Obamacare is the A-bomb of unintended consequences arrogantly unleashed on a country which was yelling "slow down!"


see guys, that's how you tell an unproven paranoid fantasy!


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## candycorn (Sep 20, 2013)

daws101 said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > daws101 said:
> ...



Ms Pac Man ruined my life!!!!


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## daws101 (Sep 20, 2013)

candycorn said:


> daws101 said:
> 
> 
> > candycorn said:
> ...


my name is daws and I'm a shootout addict!


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## Amelia (Sep 20, 2013)

daws101 said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > Obamacare is the A-bomb of unintended consequences arrogantly unleashed on a country which was yelling "slow down!"
> ...




Every day more unintended consequences are revealed.

These days it is usually in the form of lost hours or outright lost jobs.

The tragedy is that this was foreseeable and foreseen.  But Obama didn't care how bad the policy was.  He wanted something to claim for his win column.  Didn't matter how many lies he had to tell.  Didn't matter how strongly the opposition from the American people was.  Didn't matter what level of shenanigans Congress had to employ to get it through after the backlash was so bad that liberal Massachusetts sent a Republican to fill Kennedy's seat to try to stop it.  Just didn't matter to Obama, Pelosi, Reid, and others who were invested in Obama's success regardless of the cost to America.

How much taxpayer money has been wasted now trying to make the law more palatable?


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## LoneLaugher (Sep 20, 2013)

Please......you are embarrassing yourself.


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## dblack (Sep 20, 2013)

daws101 said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > Obamacare is the A-bomb of unintended consequences arrogantly unleashed on a country which was yelling "slow down!"
> ...



Radical changes to the structure of our society require more than simple majority support. Our government was designed that way deliberately. The Republicans are doing the right thing in honoring opposition to PPACA.


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## candycorn (Sep 20, 2013)

daws101 said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > daws101 said:
> ...



What was it...Logan's alley?  Got me too for a while ;  Then there was Duck Hunt


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## TemplarKormac (Sep 20, 2013)

candycorn said:


> daws101 said:
> 
> 
> > candycorn said:
> ...



At least 2AD has a job. You two make it a profession to troll here. Tell me, who leads the more productive life?


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## TemplarKormac (Sep 20, 2013)

daws101 said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > daws101 said:
> ...



No, you're addicted to stupidity, and your name is "daww shucks, I'm a flaming idiot!"


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## candycorn (Sep 20, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > daws101 said:
> ...



He gives you jobs?


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## candycorn (Sep 20, 2013)

I post 10 times a day on average
2AD has 20 posts a day
Templar Hack had 49 a day.

Who spends all their time here?  You fuck-stain


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## TemplarKormac (Sep 20, 2013)

candycorn said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > candycorn said:
> ...



Wat?


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## EriktheRed (Sep 20, 2013)

Amelia said:


> Obamacare is the A-bomb of unintended consequences arrogantly unleashed on a country which was yelling "slow down!"



Was the country yelling that on Nov. 6, 2012?


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## TemplarKormac (Sep 20, 2013)

candycorn said:


> I post 10 times a day on average
> 2AD has 20 posts a day
> Templar Hack had 49 a day.
> 
> Who spends all their time here?  You fuck-stain



Hey, you're the one bashing 2AD's job. Not me. Oh, and you must spend all of your time scouring these boards looking for an opportunity to troll. Who says you have to post a lot to be here all the time?

Dumbass.


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## LoneLaugher (Sep 20, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > daws101 said:
> ...



Do you have a job?


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## TemplarKormac (Sep 20, 2013)

EriktheRed said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > Obamacare is the A-bomb of unintended consequences arrogantly unleashed on a country which was yelling "slow down!"
> ...



No, they were laughing as they all jumped off the cliff.


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## TemplarKormac (Sep 20, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > candycorn said:
> ...



I am unemployed no thanks to your guy, Barry. But this isn't about me, is it? You can't answer the question can you?


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## EriktheRed (Sep 20, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> EriktheRed said:
> 
> 
> > Amelia said:
> ...



Loser says what?



_(sorry, my sign is in the shop)_


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## Amelia (Sep 20, 2013)

EriktheRed said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > Obamacare is the A-bomb of unintended consequences arrogantly unleashed on a country which was yelling "slow down!"
> ...




Hard to tell what people may have been yelling with the IRS muffling them.


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## TemplarKormac (Sep 20, 2013)

EriktheRed said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > EriktheRed said:
> ...



Yeah,  you should put your brain in the shop too.


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## candycorn (Sep 20, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...



You're unemployed?  Stop being a burden to society, get off the messageboard, get off your lazy ass and look for a job.


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## EriktheRed (Sep 20, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...



How 'bout we just laugh at what a hypocritical troll you are, instead?


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## LoneLaugher (Sep 20, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...



What question? 

It is now about you. You piped in with that comment about jobs. Didn't your stupid filter try to stop you? 

You are unemployed in a land of opportunity and blaming it on someone else. 

Surely....you can land a gig...something. My daughter....who attends croos country practice every morning at 5:30.....then goes to classes at HS....then goes to classes at college.....just landed a job where she gets paid to get petitions signed for an environmental group. She is 17.

Come on, man....get out there and get that job!

You are 25. Who is paying your rent and utility bills?


----------



## EriktheRed (Sep 20, 2013)

candycorn said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



I second that!

Stop being a fuckin' sponge, TP!


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## candycorn (Sep 20, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > I post 10 times a day on average
> ...



You post 49 times a day...and you're unemployed.  No wonder you're so angry...nobody wants you.


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## candycorn (Sep 20, 2013)

EriktheRed said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...



Wonder who pays for his Internet?  Probably taxpayers like us....


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## EriktheRed (Sep 20, 2013)

candycorn said:


> EriktheRed said:
> 
> 
> > candycorn said:
> ...



I didn't just work a 48-hour work week and 50-hour week before that so layabouts like TK can fritter away their days on the intertubes, I tell ya!


Go call immigration on some grape-pickers so can take one of *those* jobs!


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 20, 2013)

Seriously....my 21 y/o just got back from his job at Subway. It ain't glamorous...but he is paying his own bills for his car and his phone....and he buys his own books.

He's a gamer, by the way. Proof that even they can find work. 

I'll bet I can find TK 5 job openings *XXXXXXX. *You interested TK?


----------



## TemplarKormac (Sep 20, 2013)

candycorn said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



Stop giving everyone welfare and food stamps before you lecture me, you liberal wiseass.


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## TemplarKormac (Sep 20, 2013)

EriktheRed said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > EriktheRed said:
> ...



Yeah, and you can quit advocating amnesty and jobs for illegals so I can actually have job to apply for, dimwit.


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## TemplarKormac (Sep 20, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Seriously....my 21 y/o just got back from his job at Subway. It ain't glamorous...but he is paying his own bills for his car and his phone....and he buys his own books.
> 
> He's a gamer, by the way. Proof that even they can find work.
> 
> I'll bet I can find TK 5 job openings within 10 miles from his mommy's house. You interested TK?



*XXXXXXX* You don't seem to understand something. Liberals like you seem to think everyone should live an ideal lifestyle, with a high paying job and little to care for but themselves. I am here caring for my elderly grandmother, who isn't in the greatest health to boot. I can only hope your child has enough respect for you to do the same when you reach your seventies. Stop assuming you know me or my problems, LL. Negged.


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## EriktheRed (Sep 20, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> EriktheRed said:
> 
> 
> > candycorn said:
> ...





Excuses, excuses...


----------



## TemplarKormac (Sep 20, 2013)

EriktheRed said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > EriktheRed said:
> ...



Ahh, but you liberals vote to give people these excuses. Would you mind passing a jobs bill in my lifetime perhaps? Or will ole Harry keep blocking them as he always does?


----------



## TemplarKormac (Sep 20, 2013)

Now, if you're done deflecting and trying to draw me into a pissing contest with you, try answering this question:

You spend a lot of time scouring these boards for people to provoke and to troll. You then make the mistake of trashing 2AD's livelihood. Tell me, who gains more, the board troll or the breadwinner?


----------



## TemplarKormac (Sep 20, 2013)

I'll be waiting here until you manage to address the question, LameLoner.


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## daws101 (Sep 20, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> daws101 said:
> 
> 
> > candycorn said:
> ...


another member of the false assumption club yammers inaccuracies.


----------



## daws101 (Sep 20, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > I post 10 times a day on average
> ...


remember guys all the noise is coming from a guy who uses a character from an rpg(fantasy role playing game) as an avatar.
that would not be a problem except he thinks he is the avatar.


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## TemplarKormac (Sep 20, 2013)

daws101 said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > candycorn said:
> ...



Haha! Man, you've been led like the gullible idiot you are. But then again, that's rich coming from someone comparing members of the Republican Party to the Nazis in his.


----------



## eagle1462010 (Sep 20, 2013)

And as usual, the op is ignored by Diversion.

No matter what they say or spew forth, the fact is that America is becoming a PART TIME EMPLOYMENT society.

The BLS backs it up, and so does article after article.  Completely ignored by the left because it's against their mantra.

If Obama and the Dems are so smart, then why do we still have less people employed now than in 2007......................And Millions of those that are counted are Part Time Employees.

But who cares, RIGHT?  Who cares that the 2ad is losing overtime pay.  It's for his and the public's best interest, RIGHT..............................

Power is temporary, and so is your temporary power.  Eventually the tables will turn, and you'll be put back in your place by the people.


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## TemplarKormac (Sep 20, 2013)

daws101 said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > daws101 said:
> ...



Care to prove me wrong?


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## candycorn (Sep 20, 2013)

daws101 said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > candycorn said:
> ...



It's a syndrome among many losers to be sure.


----------



## candycorn (Sep 20, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> I'll be waiting here until you manage to address the question, LameLoner.



Obviously you have nothing better to do...like work.


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## Vox (Sep 20, 2013)

candycorn said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > I'll be waiting here until you manage to address the question, LameLoner.
> ...



not everybody works night shifts


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## BDBoop (Sep 21, 2013)

I do! Nineteen minutes to freedom.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 21, 2013)

Vox said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...



And some people...like Templar Cupcake.....don't work any shifts.


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## TemplarKormac (Sep 21, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Vox said:
> 
> 
> > candycorn said:
> ...



And some people like you, have no arguments. I honestly wouldn't wish your type of stupidity on anyone.


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## LoneLaugher (Sep 21, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > Vox said:
> ...



Do you think you are smarter than me, TK?


----------



## eagle1462010 (Sep 21, 2013)

Jesus......................

Clearly the Op is out of order.   Malfunctioning.

Kinda like Obamacare.  Malfunctioning from the get go.


----------



## MeBelle (Sep 21, 2013)

eagle1462010 said:


> And as usual, the op is ignored by Diversion.
> 
> No matter what they say or spew forth, the fact is that America is becoming a PART TIME EMPLOYMENT society.
> 
> ...



*Please! It's all Bush's fault, dontcha' know?*


----------



## JoeB131 (Sep 21, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > Vox said:
> ...



You do seem to be avoiding the question.  

Do you actually have a job, or do you spend all day trolling the net about them "Welfare people"?


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 21, 2013)

JoeB131 said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



He has no job. He has admitted that. He will not respond to questions about who pays his rent, provides his food and buys his man diapers. 

But he is really smart and has a lot of rep!


----------



## candycorn (Sep 21, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...



I'm sure the spin will be that he's an eccentric millionaire who stopped after making his 50th million.


----------



## candycorn (Sep 21, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...



 [MENTION=31178]MeBelle60[/MENTION]


----------



## Foxfyre (Sep 21, 2013)

eagle1462010 said:


> Jesus......................
> 
> Clearly the Op is out of order.   Malfunctioning.
> 
> Kinda like Obamacare.  Malfunctioning from the get go.



It is what they do.  I still maintain there is something in the water liberals drink that prevents them from being able to focus on a concept or topic but they will almost invariably deflect it into something entirely unrelated.  And that more often than not is via saying the most hateful and horrendous things to or about people who they don't know and know nothing of their circumstances.  And THEN they claim to be nicer, more noble, more righteous, more compassionate, more sensistive, more caring people.

ARRRGH!!!!   It is enough to make a body scream.

The fact is Obamacare is a train wreck and public approval of Obamacare is steadily dropping, most especially as it becomes apparent that it is hurting the lower income Americans the most.  As more and more employers choose to scale back, postpone expansions, and do away with full time jobs in favor of part tme employment, the chickens are coming home to roost.

How do the leftwingers continue to support that?   Why isn't it obvious that unless this boondoggle is reversed or sidelined, the economy will continue to suffer?  Why do they think that is okay?


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 21, 2013)

Foxfyre said:


> eagle1462010 said:
> 
> 
> > Jesus......................
> ...



Because that is not obvious and your characterization is inaccurate. 

Your opinion is that Obamacare is a train wreck. That is clearly not a fact. Public approval of the various components of Obamacare remains high. It is helping lower income Americans....who previously did not qualify for Medicaid....to obtain affordable health insurance. 

The job numbers do not support your contention that more and more employers are scaling back....nor do they support the claim that anyone is doing away with full time jobs in favor of part time jobs. That is a nutter lie that you have believed. 

This thing that you are participating in....knowingly or not....where you mischaracterize the law and the effect that is has already had....has grown to the point of insanity. Your numbers are incorrect, your understanding of the law is minimal and your dire predictions are simply that....predictions. And that, my verbose friend.....is not something that nutters have proven to be very good at.


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## Camp (Sep 21, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> > eagle1462010 said:
> ...



Even the complaint that it is causing employers to cut back on hours to escape being part of the program is easy to fix. All that needs be done is to have employers pay into they system by an hourly basis with the employee paying the difference. Employers no longer will benifit from cutting hours and more employee's would be responsible for paying a portion of their insurance. It could prevent many from having to use medicaid.


----------



## Foxfyre (Sep 21, 2013)

There is usually something in ANY legislation that most people will approve.  That something good within any legislation is what dishonest politicians (and their supporters) use to justify the legislation.

Reasonable, honest, and logical people point to the something good and ask why don't we do THAT and dump all the rest?

And as for approval ratings for Obamacare lately the recent polls show:

Rasmussen - September 14/15 - 43% favor - 53% oppose.

ABC/Washington Post - September 12-15 - 42% favor - 52% oppose

CNN - September 6-8 - 35% favor - 57% oppose

Fox News - September 6-8 - 35% favor - 54% oppose

NBC/WSJ - September 5-8 - 31% favor - 44% oppose

USA Today/Pew - September 4-8 - 42% favor - 53% oppose
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/obama_and_democrats_health_care_plan-1130.html

Which of course, since this is just about the ONLY legislation Obama puts out there as something good he has accomplished, is why his own approval ratings are sliding into consistently negative territory.


----------



## RKMBrown (Sep 21, 2013)

Camp said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > Foxfyre said:
> ...



Why should we pay for YOUR health care when YOU don't work for us?  I have a better idea.  Why don't YOU get a job looser.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 21, 2013)

Foxfyre said:


> There is usually something in ANY legislation that most people will approve.  That something good within any legislation is what dishonest politicians (and their supporters) use to justify the legislation.
> 
> Reasonable, honest, and logical people point to the something good and ask why don't we do THAT and dump all the rest?
> 
> ...



Do you think those numbers would be the same if every lie that opponents have fabricated was never circulated? 

Wait.....let me say it this way......

Can you cite any falsehoods or misrepresented facts circulated by opponents of the ACA? Are there any well publicized claims made by Obamacare opponents that you personally know are false and should never have been made?

Please......


----------



## Foxfyre (Sep 21, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> > There is usually something in ANY legislation that most people will approve.  That something good within any legislation is what dishonest politicians (and their supporters) use to justify the legislation.
> ...



No, I can't cite any falsehoods or misrepresented facts circulated by opponents of the ACA as a group.  Seems to me they're getting it pretty spot on, and because I have done some extensive reading on it and have access to opinions of those in the insurance and medical fields who are dealing with it, there's a lot of stuff the opponents are missing too.

Will any given individual get a fact wrong here and there?  Of course.  Intelligent people are not infallible any more than are the morons who are buying into Obamacare as the greatest thing since sliced bread.

*For those who want a well written, comprehensive, and intelligent synopsis summarizing what is including in the ACA, I recommend Nick J. Tate's booklet:  "Obamacare Survival Guide." * Just google it and you'll find a number of ways to buy it at a very reasonable cost.  It has been on the New York Times best seller list for many weeks.  It translates the legaleze in the legislation to everyday English, and I am not finding anything in it that distorts the facts in any way.  221 pages and thoroughly indexed.

Don't forget that the things you suggest are 'lies' and 'distortions' are being reported in the mainstream media that has been in bed with Obama since Day #1.  The same media who has bent over backwards to shield him from negative press and has exalted his every word.  When THEY concede that Obamacare is a disaster, you can take it to the bank that Obamacare is a disaster.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 21, 2013)

Foxfyre said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > Foxfyre said:
> ...



Dishonest human.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 21, 2013)

Foxfyre said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > Foxfyre said:
> ...



What is the sixth word in the third paragraph of the 59th page of that Tate book?


----------



## Foxfyre (Sep 21, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



Well, the third complete paragraph on Page 59 is:

(Referring to the incentives Obamacare puts out there to win converts):

"The first one is straightforward *enough*.  Under ObamaCare, the doors of Medicaid will be thrown wide open and millions of Americans will now qualify for the program.  That's because the income threshhold to qualify for Medicaid will be raised in 2014 to 133 percent of the federal poverty line ($29,327 for a family of four in 2010) in most states in the country."

The fourth paragraph on that same page goes on to discuss states opting out despite threats of losing all their Medicaid funding, a provision of the ACA law that the Supreme Court subsequently ruled unconstitutional.

These paragraphs are included in a comprehensive discussion in Chapter 5 entitled "The Individual Mandate."


----------



## Bfgrn (Sep 21, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



Employers don't 'pay' for an employee's health insurance, the employee DOES. It is a deferred wage.
*
Personal Freedom, Responsibility, And Mandates*
by Robert E. Moffit - The Heritage Foundation senior fellow


*A Snare And A Delusion*

Employer-based health insurance in this country is the product of wartime economic and tax policy of the 1940s. There is no reason why health reform in the 1990s should be governed by those unique circumstances and outdated tax policies. 

Uwe Reinhardt and Alan Krueger tell us that the tax treatment of employment-based health insurance now is sharply regressive. And, Mark Pauly confirms, it contributes to market distortions, high costs, and lack of portability in health insurance. Americans today get tax relief for health insurance on only one condition: that they get it from their employer. This has tied health insurance to the workplace in a way that no other insurance is treated. It means that if we lose or change a job, we lose our health coverage. 

Pauly also tells us that employer-based insurance hides the true costs of health care. Thus, there is no normal collision between the forces of supply and demand on even the most basic level. Most workers do not purchase health insurance; it is purchased by somebody else, usually the company. *For most workers, it is a free good, an extra, that automatically comes with the job. At least, we live with that comfortable illusion. But, in fact, it is not free at all, and the employer gives us nothing. Because too many people think that the employers contribution is the employers money and not theirs*, the consumers perception is distorted (as is the providers), and health spending is not subject to market discipline. Likewise, because too many people still do not understand this reality, hidden taxes through the employer mandate are politically attractive. Such a mandate thus serves as a psychological snare and an economic delusion. 

Karen Davis and Cathy Schoen suggest a payroll tax to finance reform, whereby the employer pays 8 percent and the employee pays 2 percent. If one of our tasks is to make the true costs transparent, this suggestion does not help very much.

 In his otherwise enlightening paper, Reinhardt calls attention to the virtues of a mandated purchase of health insurance. And he warns that calling an employers mandated purchase a tax comes close to debasing the English language. But, in a similar context, Reinhardt uses the word contribution to describe suspiciously similar functions. Suffice it to say, the campaign for linguistic precision is hardly advanced by using the word contibution to describe the states forcible extraction of citizens money.

In another context, Reinhardt proposes *perhaps the best single reform idea to date. He suggests a simple financial disclosure on the part of the nations employers, requiring every employer to put periodically on the pay stub of every worker in America something like the following: We have paid you X thousand dollars in health benefits. This has reduced your wages by X thousand dollars. We would add: Have a nice day!*5

http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/13/2/101.full.pdf


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## MeBelle (Sep 21, 2013)

candycorn said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



You  must have missed this post in this thread.



TemplarKormac said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > You silly boy. You speak of my life experience.....as if you come close.
> ...



Go ahead, ask him what he does now...

 [MENTION=20614]candycorn[/MENTION]


----------



## candycorn (Sep 21, 2013)

MeBelle60 said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...



I know what he does now;

He's chronically unemployed and blames everyone except himself for his lot in life.  But I'm sure he likes you bringing up his shortcomings...keep it going.


----------



## MeBelle (Sep 21, 2013)

Bfgrn said:


> Employers don't 'pay' for an employee's health insurance



Sure they do! Here's why:

Deductible Premiums
You generally can deduct premiums you pay for the following kinds of insurance related to your trade or business.

*Group hospitalization and medical insurance for employees, including long-term care insurance.*

Publication 535 (2012), Business Expenses



> the employee DOES.



In some cases an employer can sponsor a health insurance plan.
Example:
Money-saving products  *members can use pretax dollars to pay for their health insurance premiums*, transportation to work, and child care.

Solutions for All Sizes -- Aetna



> It is a deferred wage.



Ummmm, no.

An arrangement in which a portion of an *employee's income is paid out at a date after which that income is actually earned.* Examples of deferred compensation include pensions, retirement plans, and stock options. *The primary benefit of most deferred compensation is the deferral of tax.*

What is Deferred Compensation? definition and meaning

Deferred compensation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Your link:
http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/13/2/101.full.pdf

In late *January 1994 *The Robert Wood Johnson Foundation and Princeton University *sponsored a conference* entitled Universal Coverage: How Best to Achieve It? *At that conference several prominent economists and policymakers presented papers on the pros and cons of employer and individual mandates.* In response, a number of others offered comments on various aspects of the mandate question. Here Health Affairs presents the views of two respondents.


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## MeBelle (Sep 21, 2013)

candycorn said:


> MeBelle60 said:
> 
> 
> > candycorn said:
> ...


Proof?
TIA



> * But I'm sure* he likes you bringing up his shortcomings...keep it going.




You're 'sure'? Riiiiight, not.

I know what I was doing @ age 25 when the economy sucked.

His shortcomings?
Unless you are married to him or live with him you don't know anything! 


Your deflections are AWESOME!


----------



## RKMBrown (Sep 21, 2013)

Bfgrn said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Camp said:
> ...



So you are saying Obuma care is redistribution of income from the working poor to the people who just want to sit on their ass and receive freebies?


----------



## candycorn (Sep 21, 2013)

MeBelle60 said:


> candycorn said:
> 
> 
> > MeBelle60 said:
> ...



He says he's without a job; basically a bum.  You can argue with him if you like.  You're boring me.


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## candycorn (Sep 21, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



Should help pemplar...


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## MeBelle (Sep 22, 2013)

candycorn said:


> MeBelle60 said:
> 
> 
> > candycorn said:
> ...



Then stop responding to me. You brought me into this thread with the @ sign I'm responding. You were caught in a lie...own it! Sorry that the truth hurts.

  [MENTION=43268]TemplarKormac[/MENTION]
  [MENTION=20614]candycorn[/MENTION]



Another deflection fail candy girl.  You can't even 'answer' what you think you know. Light emphasis on the word think.


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## Bfgrn (Sep 22, 2013)

MeBelle60 said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > Employers don't 'pay' for an employee's health insurance
> ...



There is nothing more frightening than active ignorance. Goethe


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## Mac1958 (Sep 22, 2013)

Foxfyre said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > Foxfyre said:
> ...






.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 22, 2013)

Mac1958 said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



How about you, Mac? You want to answer the question of the day? 

Can you cite any intentional misrepresentations of the facts regarding Obamacare that have been promoted by the opponents of Obamacare? Or, will you sit there on your very rickety fence and lie like your new heroin here? 

Oh! That's right. You have me on ignore! How creepy!


----------



## Bfgrn (Sep 22, 2013)

May 22, 2009
Is Employer-Based Health Insurance Worth Saving?
By UWE E. REINHARDT

_Uwe E. Reinhardt is an economics professor at Princeton._

Ask any group of health policy experts whether they would have put in place our employment-based health insurance system, had they had the luxury of designing our health system from scratch, the resounding answer most likely would be No. In fact, no other industrialized country has quite this arrangement. It is uniquely American in origin and in modus operandi.

Our employment-based system was not the product of a carefully designed health policy. It was a byproduct of evading wage controls during World War II.

At the time it was thought that, as the nations drafted military personnel risked their limbs and life on foreign battlefields at low, tightly controlled pay, those who stayed behind should have their wages controlled as well.

But with the wink of the eye with which Congress routinely puts loopholes into the tax laws or regulations it imposes, the wage controls imposed in World War II did not extend to fringe benefits. And thus, employer-paid fringe benefits, including employment-based health insurance, were born. 

As was noted in last weeks post, Congress further encouraged the growth of employment-based health insurance by treating the employers contribution to their employees health insurance as a tax-deductible business expense. On the other hand, it was also not viewed as taxable compensation of the employee.

*Remarkably, and quite unfairly, that tax preference was not granted to families forced to purchase health insurance on their own. They had to buy it with after-tax dollars. *

From the perspective of health policy experts, however, that approach has serious shortcomings.

First, it keeps opaque who actually pays for the health care used by employees.

Both employers and employees seem to believe that the company absorbs the cost of the employers contributions to the group health insurance premiums for their employees  typically 80 percent of the premium.

Employers believe that these costs must either be recovered through the prices of the goods or services they sell (i.e., passing along the rising costs of health care to their customers in the form of higher prices), or taken out of the return to the companys owners. On that belief, American executives now complain pitiably that the high cost of American health care makes their enterprises uncompetitive in the global marketplace.

*For their part, employees tend to view employer-paid health insurance as a gift, on top of their pay. *Therefore they see little personal gain in attempts to control the cost of their care.

*Most economists are persuaded by theory and evidence that, over the longer run, the contributions employers make toward the fringe benefits of their employees come out of the employees take-home pay. Economists think of employers as pickpockets, so to speak, who take a chunk of the employees total compensation and buy with it whatever fringe benefits they give their employees. That process blinds employees to the inroads that their health care makes into their families livelihood.*

more


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## Mac1958 (Sep 22, 2013)

.

Employer-based health care may have been a good idea at one point, but it's a horrible fucking idea now.

.


----------



## eagle1462010 (Sep 22, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> > There is usually something in ANY legislation that most people will approve.  That something good within any legislation is what dishonest politicians (and their supporters) use to justify the legislation.
> ...



It's your place to specify the Lies that have made the public go against the ACA..............

Should be easy for you, go to daily KOS and I'm sure it's scripted for you..................

Will people like you ever accept that this law is turning our Workforce into Part Time..........

Will you admit that key elements are not ready now, and push for a 1 year delay on the entire law..................as key elements are not in service....................

Will you do this by the Law, aka put the vote up in Congress and stop circumventing the Constitution.............................

Will you admit that Unions are now ticked off because the law is hurting their members..............

Will you continue to deny that millions of our Senors will lose funding that helped them in the Advantage cuts.....................

Will you admit that you passed the law on a LIE that it would cost less than reality because you used years at the CBO with the law not in place................

Will you admit that the cost of 10 year projections has nearly doubled.................

Will you admit that the number of people who would get to keep their insurance has doubled in LOSING THEIR INSURANCE.................

Will you admit that the ACA put a tax on Insurance policies for just having them..........

Will you admit that people are required to put up Personal data into the Federal Hub.........

Will you admit that your personal data can be seen by providers Nationwide, thus increasing the possibility that your personal information can be seen by those without the need to know.......................

Is this a violation of our privacy.................And if not why do you then bitch about the NSA when you don't give a damn about our Medical Records............

Why do you post how affordable it is to those in the FPL ranges but ignore the data about those outside that range when many are getting fucked by paying more to pay for the Free Policies again.

aka Redistribution of Wealth as always.....................


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 22, 2013)

Mac1958 said:


> .
> 
> Employer-based health care may have been a good idea at one point, but it's a horrible fucking idea now.
> 
> .



Not sure it was ever a good idea......but you speak truth about the present.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 22, 2013)

eagle1462010 said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > Foxfyre said:
> ...



You seem upset.


----------



## dblack (Sep 22, 2013)

Bfgrn,

I couldn't agree more with the notion that the way we've been insuring ourselves, especially the way we've promoted employer-provided group plans, is the root of the problem. I think many Republicans get this a well. This could be used as a starting point for real consensus on a real solution. It's sad and frustrating that the Democrats and the President chose a different course.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 22, 2013)

dblack said:


> Bfgrn,
> 
> I couldn't agree more with the notion that the way we've been insuring ourselves, especially the way we've promoted employer-provided group plans, is the root of the problem. I think many Republicans get this a well. This could be used as a starting point for real consensus on a real solution. It's sad and frustrating that the Democrats and the President chose a different course.



Yes. If only they'd been willing to work with the GOP on a solution. Instead, they just went all socialist and passed a law that keeps the profit motive in health care! Bastards!


----------



## Snookie (Sep 22, 2013)

The big fear the republicans have about obama care is that it will be successful.

If it was as screwed up they would let it ride and watch it crash and then cash in on its failure.


----------



## eagle1462010 (Sep 22, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> eagle1462010 said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



LOL

You seem to continue to refuse to look at data of this BS Law, and divert the BS on to other areas..................

Next we are going to talk about Elephants and Jack Asses...............

Point to ponder.  Elephants have bigger ears.   I hope I didn't just offend Elephants you might rant for hours on how a hate elephants.


----------



## dblack (Sep 22, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Bfgrn,
> ...



PPACA isn't socialist. It's pure corporatism. It preserves the profits of the vested interests, but does away with the free market, with the freedom of health care consumers.


----------



## Snookie (Sep 22, 2013)

Bfgrn said:


> May 22, 2009
> Is Employer-Based Health Insurance Worth Saving?
> By UWE E. REINHARDT
> 
> ...


The guiding doctrine of business is profit.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 22, 2013)

dblack said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



It isn't socialist? The hell you say! Did you miss the part where I said it keeps the profit motive in health care! I must REALLY think it is socialist in nature to have said that. 

If many Republicans get it......that employer sponsored health care is the root of the problem....then why haven't any of them said so? 

Maybe it is because they know that Obama will not listen to them. That must be it.


----------



## dblack (Sep 22, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> If many Republicans get it......that employer sponsored health care is the root of the problem....then why haven't any of them said so?



They have. Your partisan blinders notwithstanding.


----------



## eagle1462010 (Sep 22, 2013)

Obama Lie

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bf-k5li3fW8]Obama promises not to add a dime to the deficit. Now or in the future. Period - YouTube[/ame]

REALITY

CBO: Obamacare costs double to $1.8 trillion in first decade | WashingtonExaminer.com

When President Obama was selling his health care legislation to Congress, he declared that &#8220;the plan I&#8217;m proposing will cost around $900 billion over 10 years.&#8221; But with the law&#8217;s major provisions set to kick in next year, a new analysis by the Congressional Budget Office projects that the law will cost double that, or $1.8 trillion.


----------



## Bfgrn (Sep 22, 2013)

Snookie said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > May 22, 2009
> ...



Absolutely...and the guiding doctrine of a health care system must be people. That is why every industrialized nation takes profit out of the equation. 

The whole basis of a 'free market' is the buyer has leverage, i.e. he/she can take his/her business elsewhere. That works perfectly fine when the stakes are 'things' (cars or TV sets etc). But a person's health is not a 'thing', and the consumer's stake is their very life. An unhappy consumer can go buys a different car or TV. If a person has a life threatening illness and is denied coverage for treatment, WHAT leverage does that person have...take their business elsewhere IN ANOTHER LIFE?


----------



## eagle1462010 (Sep 22, 2013)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Esb_1OEp4-Q]ObamaCare in 60 Seconds - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 22, 2013)

dblack said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > If many Republicans get it......that employer sponsored health care is the root of the problem....then why haven't any of them said so?
> ...



Great! What leading Republican has said so? No link needed....just give me the name. I an find it. 

Thanks.


----------



## eagle1462010 (Sep 22, 2013)

The Liar N Chief

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kg9m1F8B2_c]65 Outrageous Lies by President Obama - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## eagle1462010 (Sep 22, 2013)

Liberal Zombies would follow Obama into&#65279; a fire screaming "We love you!!" while burning to death.


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## EriktheRed (Sep 22, 2013)

eagle1462010 said:


> Liberal Zombies would follow Obama into&#65279; a fire screaming "We love you!!" while burning to death.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 22, 2013)

eagle1462010 said:


> Liberal Zombies would follow Obama into&#65279; a fire screaming "We love you!!" while burning to death.



We need more posts like you have been submitting, eagle. They are really contributing to the discussion. In fact, we need more posters like you. There are not enough USMB members with your unique take on things.


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## dblack (Sep 22, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



I've seen several alternative reforms (proffered by republicans) that included provisions to either get rid of the incentives for employer-provided insurance or to extend the same tax breaks to individual purchasers. Don't get me wrong, the last thing I'm interested in doing is cheerleading for Republicans. But the potential for real consensus is there.


----------



## LoneLaugher (Sep 22, 2013)

dblack said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



I am looking for a GOP proposal....or even a comment....expressing a desire to end the employer based system that we have now. That would be interesting for me and I'd be eager to learn more about that GOP leader. 

The opportunity for consensus exists for all issues....but the brokers who come to the table have to do so honestly. Teammates who disagree on tactics are acceptable and can work things out. Coming to the table as though they are not on the same team is not acceptable.


----------



## dblack (Sep 22, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...



This was my first hit from a google search on " republicans on employer based health insurance "

http://freebeacon.com/republicans-put-forward-obamacare-replacement/



> The bill begins by eliminating the bias in the tax code toward employer-provided health care. Employer-provided insurance will no longer be tax-free, and the RSC plan replaces it with a tax deduction for individuals and families that have health insurance. This shift makes the tax code treat insurance provided through work and bought on the individual market the same.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 22, 2013)

Snookie said:


> The big fear the republicans have about obama care is that it will be successful.
> 
> If it was as screwed up they would let it ride and watch it crash and then cash in on its failure.



You are delusional.  Socialism, NEVER works.  Never has worked, does not work now, and never will work.


----------



## Snookie (Sep 22, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Snookie said:
> 
> 
> > The big fear the republicans have about obama care is that it will be successful.
> ...



You are confusing communism for socialism.  You are anti-social.

It is working fine in a lot of the wealthy more civilized countries in the world.  Social security is the most popular social program in this country.  They would have a huge surplus if it had not been raped by the politicians.


----------



## dblack (Sep 22, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Snookie said:
> 
> 
> > The big fear the republicans have about obama care is that it will be successful.
> ...



ACA isn't socialism. It's corporatism. And I agree that the biggest threat is that it will 'work' - in the sense that it will successfully bring health care under federal control. I think that would be a really bad development for our nation.


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## Snookie (Sep 22, 2013)

dblack said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Snookie said:
> ...



Yeah government is bad.  We need to get rid f things such as the interstae highway system, the FDA who is always sticking its nose in botulism, national parks, medicare, medicaid, air traffic controllers, fbi, the pentagon, and just too many to mention.

Let's just revert back to the neanderthal era and the survival of the fittest.  We too, can be like Somalia.


----------



## RKMBrown (Sep 22, 2013)

dblack said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Snookie said:
> ...



That's a lie.  Forcing corporations to pay fines and higher rates for insurance for their employees, and/or the employees to foot the bill for the higher rates due to the new federal mandates placed on insurance companies to cover people with pre-existing conditions and also to fund federal subsidies for heath insurance plans for illegals, people who don't want to work, and people who work "part time" and/or for minimum wage are most certainly socialist redistribution policies.  So what if the government is outsourcing the insurance management to insurance companies?  Corporatism my ass.

If you earn a mid income level amount of money you are going to be punished, unless you had some pre-existing conditions that you want to force others to pay for.  That is the very definition of socialism.  People who deserved an F are being given a C.  People who deserved an A are being dinged for the audacity of living and working in this country and not having given up all of their salary to government to redistribute.  Cause evidently, existing federal, state, and local taxes were not enough now our federal government has to screw up our health care.  They started screwing it up with the mandated free health care at emergency rooms.  Obuma Care is just one more nail in the labor force.  This is "why" unions and other democrat institutions are all getting exemptions from this bull carp.  If you are not in a government job or union you are an enemy of this administration.  It's disgusting.  Makes me want to clean my guns some more, get some more ammo.  I really don't like this one government policy for the democrats, hand out money hand over fist, and another government policy for the republicans, take their paychecks while you are calling them rich scum that did not earn their money.


----------



## dblack (Sep 22, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



It doesn't sound like you understand corporatism at all. Or socialism for that matter. Certainly not enough to discern truth from lies.


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## dblack (Sep 22, 2013)

Snookie said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



???


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## RKMBrown (Sep 22, 2013)

Snookie said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...


No one said we don't need government. NO ONE but you that is.  Your accusations of some desire for anarchy are the extreme example of retarded views of the majority of the democrat party.  If you are retarded, my apologies.

Examples of government programs that are not socialism:  "interstae highway system, the FDA who is always sticking its nose in botulism, national parks, medicare, medicaid, air traffic controllers, fbi, the pentagon..."

Medicare is a ponzi scheme, not socialism.  Medicaid is means tested charity for the extreme poor who have no assets and no other means for funding their health care, it is not socialism.  Medicaid "is" the health care safety net that the democrats "claim" we don't have.


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## eagle1462010 (Sep 22, 2013)

Snookie said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



That's terrible.  What would we do without studies that determine how a mosquito has sex............What would we do without Free Rubbers and Cell phones.................

What would we do if we didn't build a turtle tunnel under an interstate.............

What would we do if we didn't repair Gov't buildings that nobody uses anymore..........

Sniff Sniff............I need a tissue.

Really, though our main intent is to just trash the Interstate system though..............

Do you stay awake all night coming up with your BS.


----------



## eagle1462010 (Sep 22, 2013)

Top 10 Examples of Wasteful Federal Spending in 2012 | The Foundry: Conservative Policy News Blog from The Heritage Foundation

But we need Robo Squirrel.....................

We need to study pig poop

Damn these conservatives.  Wanting to cut these things we need.  I saw a gang of Congressmen tearing up an interstate yesterday.

The nerve of these animals.


----------



## eagle1462010 (Sep 22, 2013)

Althouse: "In the military they have $5.2 million they spent on goldfish ? studying goldfish to see how democratic they were..."

5.2 Million to study Goldfish................

But we shut down military commissary's all over the world instead.....

Nice scalpel Obama.


----------



## Bfgrn (Sep 22, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



Social Darwinism personified. Bolstered by gross ignorance, false right wing propaganda, uttered by a human piece of shit.

You forgot the...."let 'em die!"

I have never had the thought in my life that equality means material equality. And I know of no liberal who forwards that belief.

The question was asked by a college student at a political forum what the difference is between Republicans and Democrats. After Ronald Reagan speechwriter Peggy Noonan went off on some long drawn out answer filled with dogma, the late Ted Sorensen, the man who knew John F. Kennedy's core beliefs better than anyone, said it best and in his usual word thrifty style. 

"Republicans care more about property, Democrats care more about people"


----------



## RKMBrown (Sep 22, 2013)

dblack said:


> Snookie said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...


Snook is a socialist authoritarian.  You're either "for" authoritarian control of every industry, or you are an anarchist.  There is no liberty without full authoritarian control in his world view.


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## eagle1462010 (Sep 22, 2013)

Whenever I hear the budget can't be cut to avoid Sequester I simply laugh.

There are plenty of ways to cut the budget if one just's looks at it, but these idiots just cut across the board and fund studies on BS.


----------



## Snookie (Sep 22, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Snookie said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...


Evidently you are not intellectually capable of recognizing social satire.  You must think the Jon Stewart show is factual news.


----------



## RKMBrown (Sep 22, 2013)

Bfgrn said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...


Spoken like the ignorant piece of shit that you are.  Unlimited health care will cost millions per US citizen.  Where is the money for unlimited health care gonna come from?  Huh?  Where?


----------



## Snookie (Sep 22, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Snookie said:
> ...


RK has now assumed the role of Internet Forum God.


----------



## RKMBrown (Sep 22, 2013)

Snookie said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Snookie said:
> ...


Well then I take it back. I love satire and I love the Jon Stewart show, even though I don't align myself with his politics.  If you meant that with "satire," yeah it was well hidden in the typical democrat authoritarian view, often spouted by the likes of BFGN, for example.

I'm good with the idea of means tested safety nets, where the person has not quit working but has exhausted all other means to pay his way and needs help.  That is what I would call a reasonable safety net.

I will, in the future, look at your posts with an eye for satire.


----------



## eagle1462010 (Sep 22, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Snookie said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



Maybe Snookie should host Saturday Night Live or something....................

tonight's show..............................

Grandma lost her Medicare part d coverage and is complaining she can't afford medical treatment.....................

drum roll please...................

Snookie,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,maybe she shouldn't have gotten old..............

HAW HAW HAW...............

Some real funny satire BS going on here..........

He Haw He Haw   The motto of the Jack Ass Party.


----------



## RKMBrown (Sep 22, 2013)

Snookie said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



No thanks.  But I do see... some level of satire in your post.  This from the god of forum satire.


----------



## eagle1462010 (Sep 22, 2013)

Picking the Ass for their Avatar was SPOT ON


----------



## dblack (Sep 22, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Snookie said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



Hmm..... maybe - between the two of you - you can clarify the satire for me. What I saw was the usual strawman accusation of anarchy in response to any suggestion that government should be limited in reach or scope. Was it a satire of the statist compulsion the shout 'Somalia' in response to libertarian arguments?

If so, I'll give snook points and admit it was more subtle, and funnier, than I realized.


----------



## Bfgrn (Sep 22, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



"Republicans care more about property, Democrats care more about people"

"It is the job of thinking people not to be on the side of the executioners"
Albert Camus


----------



## Bfgrn (Sep 22, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Snookie said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



Herein lies your problem asshole...

While not all conservatives are authoritarians; all highly authoritarian personalities are political conservatives.
Robert Altmeyer - The Authoritarians


----------



## Snookie (Sep 22, 2013)

eagle1462010 said:


> Snookie said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



I can't speak for you but as for me, Malthus would be turning over in his grave if they stopped giving me free rubbers.


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## Vox (Sep 22, 2013)

Bfgrn said:


> RKMBrown said:
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which is a LIE. dimocraps care only about the property of selected people


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## RKMBrown (Sep 22, 2013)

Bfgrn said:


> RKMBrown said:
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Yeah I can see that from Obama's dead porn mom, dead communist drunk of a father, dead communist grandparents, brother in the straw hut, aunt on skid row on welfare, and declaration that he will abort the "mistakes" of his daughters.

Your idea of charity is to steal everyone's assets to fund your health care.  What a jerk you are.  Did you ever think that maybe, just maybe I'm a better arbiter to decide how to spend my families income than say you and Obama are?  

But hey, asshole, if you don't agree, why don't you be a man and come help me spend my money.  I assure you, I will give you exactly what you deserve when you get on my property.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 22, 2013)

dblack said:


> RKMBrown said:
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> > Snookie said:
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I'm pretty sure the words he wrote did not give or provide a hint of satire.  But then, that is the funny part of satire.  What we don't get from a post like his, is the satire smile. 

However, if you look at the "whole" post, such as his avatar with the wry smile, and his sig line with the joke for a punch line.. yeah ok he's not BFGN, he's probably doing just what he said.  I'm willing to give anyone the benefit of doubt when they claim satire in an internet forum.  I also, now, remember other moments of satirical relief from Snook.. I jumped the gun.  I should have said something like, unless you said this with a missing satirical smile...


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## Bfgrn (Sep 22, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


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WOW...a whole post filled with false propaganda. You are now in the right wing parrot hall of fame. What a fucking MORON you are...

The pea brain chirps: "Unlimited health care will cost millions per US citizen"

Hey pea brain, HERE is how our current 'limited' 'for profit' 'free market' health care system compares to the rest of the industrialized nations on this planet...







How are we doing pea brain??? WHO pays for this asshole??


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## RKMBrown (Sep 22, 2013)

Bfgrn said:


> RKMBrown said:
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Very odd questions but I'll answer.  From that chart it looks like we are doing the best by far of all nations on the earth in allocating funds to health care.  How do you read that chart?   
As to your question of who pays...  Well speaking for my immediate family, I pay.  Speaking for my Father he pays for himself and his new wife's family.  My mom died of pancreas cancer my father's health care plan paid and medicare covered that, my dad paid for for the medicare plan his whole life and he bought the supplemental insurance and he also paid the deduct-able.  

You however, want to take my paycheck take my fathers paycheck, then manage who gets care by distributing our paychecks as you see fit. You are no better than a common criminal.

How would you change that chart, cut pay for health care professionals, or refuse health care for such as my mom?


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## Vox (Sep 22, 2013)

Bfgrn said:


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if you don't want to pay - reform EMTALA STAT and tort reform ASAP


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## Snookie (Sep 22, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> dblack said:
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I am the Jonathan Swift of us message board.


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## Bfgrn (Sep 22, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


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WOW, you really are a pea brain...LOL

Per capita is a Latin prepositional phrase: It is commonly and usually used in the field of statistics in place of saying "for each person" or "per person"

Health Spending Per Capita:

Exhibit 1 shows per capita health expenditures for 2008 in U.S. dollars purchasing power parity. Health spending per capita in the United States is much higher than in other countries  at least $2,535 dollars, or 51%, higher than Norway, the next largest per capita spender. Furthermore, the United States spends nearly double the average $3,923 for the 15 countries.

Exhibit 1
Total Health Expenditure per Capita, U.S. and Selected Countries, 2008


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## Jarlaxle (Sep 22, 2013)

Snookie said:


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No, you're actually the board's equivalent of village idiot.  You're the dude who walks around arguing with trees.


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## boedicca (Sep 22, 2013)

Bfgrn said:


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Man-o-man are you an imbecile.

A significantly large portion of the U.S. health care market has nothing to do with profit - it has to do with government transfer payments and price controls...which drive up the cost for everyone else.  We do not have anything remotely akin to a free market in health care, bub.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 22, 2013)

Bfgrn said:


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And how do you think us spending, by average, double what everyone else does on healthcare is proof that we are screwing up?  I think you are jealous that people are not giving you the money they are spending on their health care.  You want me to throw you a pitty party you little cry baby twerp?


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## MeBelle (Sep 23, 2013)

Bfgrn said:


> MeBelle60 said:
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Excellent quote.
It fits you very well!!


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## Snookie (Sep 23, 2013)

Jarlaxle said:


> Snookie said:
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Not true.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 23, 2013)

Snookie said:


> Jarlaxle said:
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Thx. I've been called a lot of things. But never a tree.


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## daws101 (Sep 23, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


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you did change your avatar...


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## daws101 (Sep 23, 2013)

eagle1462010 said:


> Obama Lie
> 
> Obama promises not to add a dime to the deficit. Now or in the future. Period - YouTube
> 
> ...


that's a PROJECTION not a result.


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## Snookie (Sep 23, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Snookie said:
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Only God can make a tree.


> I THINK that I shall never see
> A poem lovely as a tree.
> 
> A tree whose hungry mouth is prest
> ...


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## SteadyMercury (Sep 23, 2013)

Snookie said:


> Only God can make a tree.


Trees can make more trees, nothing to do with magic.


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## daws101 (Sep 23, 2013)

SteadyMercury said:


> Snookie said:
> 
> 
> > Only God can make a tree.
> ...


 magic has nothing to with magic.


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## Bfgrn (Sep 23, 2013)

boedicca said:


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Another pea brain parrot squawks. 

FALSE...government has done a much better job of keeping prices down than the private 'for profit' insurance cartels.

Says WHO? How about a market-driven entrepreneur??

Is Medicare Cost Effective?





Bill Brody, M.D. President, Salk Institute for Biomedical Research

Dr. William R. Brody, an acclaimed physician-scientist, entrepreneur and university leader, joined the Salk Institute for Biological Studies on March 2, 2009 after 12 years as president of The Johns Hopkins University.






June 13, 2003

Is Medicare Cost Effective?

I recently spent a half-day in a meeting discussing a number of issues regarding Medicare. Most of us on the provider side of the street view Medicare as this multiheaded bureaucracy with more pages of regulations than the Internal Revenue Service's tax code. However, I came away from the meeting with some (to me at least) shocking revelations:

    Medicare beneficiaries are overwhelmingly satisfied with their Medicare coverage, except for the absence of prescription drug benefits;

 The administrative costs of Medicare are lower than any other large health plan.

In fact, Medicare is very efficient by any objective means:

According to the Urban Institute's Marilyn Moon, who testified before the Senate Committee on Aging, Medicare expenditures between 1970 and 2000 grew more slowly than those of the private sector. Initially, from 1965 through the 1980s, Medicare and private insurance costs doubled in tandem. Then Medicare tightened up, and per capita expenditures grew more slowly than private insurance, creating a significant gap. In the 1990s, private insurers got more serious about controlling their costs, and the gap narrowed. But by 2000, Medicare per capita expenditures remained significantly lower than the private sector.

Moon argues somewhat convincingly that Medicare has been a success. While not necessarily denying that certain reforms might be needed, she stresses the importance of preserving three essential tenets of the program:

    1. Its universal coverage nature creates the ability to redistribute benefits to those who are neediest.

    2. It pools risk in order to share the burdens of health care among the healthy and the sick.

    3. Through Medicare, the government protects the rights of all beneficiaries to essential health care.

It has been argued that, in part, Medicare's cost effectiveness arises from the fact that it does not need to expend funds on marketing and sales-functions that are obligatory for the success of competitive, private-sector health plans. Moreover, some argue that the competitive model for health insurance has not been successful. In a market-driven economy, the healthy can and will change health plans for savings of only a few dollars a month, while the sick must remain in their existing plan in order to retain their physicians. Such behaviors lead to asymmetric risk pools and cost inequities.

This was all sobering news to a market-driven entrepreneur such as yours truly. However, given the perverse incentives that frequently drive behavior in health care, my take-home lesson is that there are examples in the success of Medicare we can apply to other sectors of our population.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 23, 2013)

Bfgrn said:


> boedicca said:
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Rofl how many times are you gonna post things you don't understand.  What are you ten? Obama care is an attack on Medicare you fool.


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## Bfgrn (Sep 23, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


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No pea brain...the ACA rips 'for profit' insurance cartels off the government's tit. Medicare DIS-advantage...


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## daws101 (Sep 23, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


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see guys that's how you spread bullshit tea party paranoid propaganda.


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## Snookie (Sep 23, 2013)

SteadyMercury said:


> Snookie said:
> 
> 
> > Only God can make a tree.
> ...


The point is, is that they are lovely, like me.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 23, 2013)

Bfgrn said:


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700b taken from grandma.  You guys are scum.


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## Snookie (Sep 23, 2013)

Bfgrn said:


> boedicca said:
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From the article:  





> Medicare beneficiaries are overwhelmingly satisfied with their Medicare coverage, except for the absence of prescription drug benefits;



Actually you do get prescription drugs under medicare Part B.  Most people only pay twenty percent of the cost of prescription.  There is also a plan under madicaid called "extra help" where you only pay about $2.50 per prescriptions and in a lot of cases, zero.

Bush is credited with getting part b passed.


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## Snookie (Sep 23, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Bfgrn said:
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You are making shit up.  Bookmarked for future references.

You think you are some kind of clairvoyant.  Either that or an outright liar.


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## SteadyMercury (Sep 23, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> Obamacare just ruined my life.


Your ability to maintain perspective, overcome adversity and find a way to succeed is inspiring...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NUQJvfDXrM#t=276]Whitney Houston - I Will Always Love You 1999 Live Video - YouTube[/ame]


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## Uncensored2008 (Sep 23, 2013)

Mr Clean said:


> You state of destitution is nobody's fault but your own.



That is exactly what your mentor, Pol Pot, said of the victims of his killing fields.

You leftists are consistent.

Consistently evil, but consistent.


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## daws101 (Sep 23, 2013)

Snookie said:


> SteadyMercury said:
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just as modest too!


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## daws101 (Sep 23, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


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what's 700b? not in my medicare plan?


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## daws101 (Sep 23, 2013)

Snookie said:


> Bfgrn said:
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that's kinda true.but only if you fit the income category,
in most cases (like mine) have a drug payment schedule stage 1. is yearly deductible (certain plans have no deductible )
2.initial coverage:   at this stage  the plan pays its share of the costs and you pay the rest.
3.coverage gap (the part not covered by medicare part b.)you pay 79% of the cost of your drugs they pay 21% .
this can be pricy ,during this period  your cost for say insulin,is around $244 for a one month supply.
you stay at this stage  till your year to date cost reach a pre calculated amount,say $4750.
then you move to the 4th stage.
stage 4 catastrophic coverage  then you pay 5% of the cost of the drug or a copayment of (2.65) for generic drugs or ($6.60) for all others.
this stage lasts till the end of the year ,then it starts all over in january of the new year.


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## Jarlaxle (Sep 23, 2013)

Snookie said:


> SteadyMercury said:
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And like most village idiots, you seem to be hallucinating.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 24, 2013)

Snookie said:


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No you are making shit up schnook.  Threatening me with bookmarks? ROFL look out everyone schnook is making lists!

Obamacare To Slash Hundreds Of Billions From Medicare Advantage Over Next 10 Years - Forbes


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## daws101 (Sep 24, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Snookie said:
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another projection not fact.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 24, 2013)

daws101 said:


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Point?


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## daws101 (Sep 24, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


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yes, the one on top of your head...


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## Snookie (Sep 24, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Snookie said:
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Someday you will be the laughing stock of us message boards.  That is not a threat, that is a promise.


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## itfitzme (Sep 24, 2013)

The2ndAmendment said:


> I just received a letter from my job stating that no one will be working more than 30 hours a week.
> 
> I normally worked 48-52 hours per week generating 10 hours of regular play, and 8-12 hours of overtime time. Each hour I work averages an ADDITIONAL $ 11.25 in tips.
> 
> ...



Did they say it was because of the affordable care act, or  are you just assuming that.  I worked for decades as a 1099 employee.  Why?  Long before the affordable care act was passed, companies were hiring people part time and as independent contractors to avoid paying for the benefits.  It is a practice that has been going on for decades.  It is nothing new.

See, it's called "cause and effect".  The cause of something has to be before the effect.  If something happens before, then it can be a cause.  32 hour work weeks happened BEFORE the affordable care act. So, that means that the affordable care act can't be the cause.  

I agree, the working people as part time employees to avoid paying benefits sucks as a practice. But that's the free market for you.  That's what people want, a free market in the labor market.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 24, 2013)

Snookie said:


> RKMBrown said:
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## daws101 (Sep 24, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Snookie said:
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if it makes you feel any better....


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## itfitzme (Sep 24, 2013)

Snookie said:


> Bfgrn said:
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I agree with most except, the drug coverage is part D.  My wife has it. 

www.medicare.gov/part-d/*

Medicare part A is the basic hospitalization insurance.  Part B is the medical insurance, which has that 20% deductible.  Part C is Medicare Advantage.

Everyone that has Medicare Part B pays a premium for their insurance, it's not exactly a free ride.

And yes, Medicaid is available with that "extra-help" in most counties.  Yes, often free.

Medicare isn't perfect, but then again, Kaiser was a real problem too, as private insurance.  Medicare has been much better because of the choice of doctors.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 24, 2013)

Why wouldn't medicare recipients like the medicare ponzi scheme?  The only people that don't like ponzis are the ones that get left holding the empty bag at the end.


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## itfitzme (Sep 24, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Why wouldn't medicare recipients like the medicare ponzi scheme?  The only people that don't like ponzis are the ones that get left holding the empty bag at the end.



There you go with the bullshit use of "ponzi scheme".  Do you also use "gay" and "doo doo head"?


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## Uncensored2008 (Sep 24, 2013)

Snookie said:


> Someday you will be the laughing stock of us message boards.  That is not a threat, that is a promise.



You're planning to resign your position?


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## RKMBrown (Sep 24, 2013)

itfitzme said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Why wouldn't medicare recipients like the medicare ponzi scheme?  The only people that don't like ponzis are the ones that get left holding the empty bag at the end.
> ...


What are you some sort of retard?

By any measure SS and Medicare are most certainly ponzis.

Or perhaps you can show me your account number and balance of your SS and Medicare deposits.


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## itfitzme (Sep 24, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> itfitzme said:
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By no accounting, except in your personal definition, are SS or Medicare a ponzi scheme.

"A Ponzi scheme is a *fraudulent* investment operation"

What part of that don't you get?

All your doing is saying "Ponzi is bad and I don't like it.  I don't like Medicare, there fore it is a ponzi scheme".  The fact that you don't like it has no relevance on reality.

What are you, some sort of retard?


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## RKMBrown (Sep 24, 2013)

itfitzme said:


> RKMBrown said:
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Ponzi (webster): an investment swindle in which some early investors are paid off with money put up by later ones in order to encourage more and bigger risks.

The cost of SS and Medicare have gone, up or down over history?  Is the money coming more from later investors or out of interest from earlier investors?


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## Camp (Sep 24, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> itfitzme said:
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SS and Medicare don't come close to the definition of a Ponze scheme. Not even remotely.


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## itfitzme (Sep 24, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


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Yeah, what part of *fraudulent* and *swindle* don't you get, except for the "I don't like it part"?

You do know what insurance is, right?  Automobile, homeowners, flood, fire, business, liability?  Do these terms ring any bells, except "I don't like it"?

You are some sort of retard......


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## Camp (Sep 24, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> itfitzme said:
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SS and Medicare are not investments. Even if they were, where are the "investors" that have been denied a return? Has anyone who put into these insurance programs been denied because the money wasn't available to pay them when they reached the point that they expected to get a payout?


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## RKMBrown (Sep 24, 2013)

itfitzme said:


> RKMBrown said:
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The act makes it fraud, the swindle, is in the eye of the beholder, but clear nonetheless.  The fact that SS/Medicare is an unfunded liability to the tune of many tens of trillions of dollars is absolute proof of my statements.  The only thing keeping SS/Medicare afloat is the full faith and credit of current taxpayers.  If this was a "corporate" pension plan kept afloat by corporate income, the corporation would have gone bankrupt and the corporate officers put in jail for fraud. 

SS/Medicare is not insurance either.  Insurance companies are required to keep assets on line to pay premiums. Insurance, other than retirement and ADD policies, are not investment schemes and have to go by certain guidelines, each of which are not met by the SS/Medicare ponzis.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 24, 2013)

Camp said:


> RKMBrown said:
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So ponzi schemes are ok as long as there are laws to force everyone to join and pay for it no matter how many times the cost doubles over the decades?


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## LoneLaugher (Sep 24, 2013)

Bill Clinton and President Obama are discussing the ACA together on stage at this very moment. 

Why not watch it?


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## Camp (Sep 24, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> itfitzme said:
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Not only do you not understand what a Ponzi scheme is, which happens to be a clearly defined term, your claim that SS is an unfunded liability indicates your complete lack of knowledge about how SS is funded and the assets that SS actually has. Your statement that SS is not an insurance and comparison of it to a pension fund shows your total lack of even knowing what SS is.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 24, 2013)

Camp said:


> RKMBrown said:
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Maybe you should read up before you continue embarrassing yourself.   The feds spent your SS.  It's gone.  All you have is an IOU from the federal government. 
Social Security in the red this year - Washington Times

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323353204578127374039087636.html



> The actual liabilities of the federal government&#8212;including Social Security, Medicare, and federal employees' future retirement benefits&#8212;already exceed $86.8 trillion


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## Camp (Sep 24, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Camp said:
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This is why I hate links. Did you even read those links. The first one is from 2010 and if you read more than the first paragraph you would know it talks about a one year decrease in PAYROLL CONTRIBUTION funds collected but projects increased funds in the following years (after 2009). The article clearly points out that dips and jumps can be expected and are routine. The secound article is a political piece that calls SS an unfunded liability while it admits to the SS Trust Reserve. That should clue you in that it is a distorted political propagand piece. It's point is that the reserve fund consist of IOU's from the US government. The only way those funds would not be available is if the US government becomes deadbeats and decides to not pay it's loans.
The current SS Trust Reserves hold more than 2.7 trillion dollars. The assets increased by over 50 billion dollars in 2012, making your first link pretty much a useless link since it's predictions were only somewhat correct with the overall judgement being incorrect.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 24, 2013)

You realize of course that 50b is a trickle, and that the only thing keeping that 2.7t from disappearing is current revenue from your grand children that is at roughly double the % of income that you had to pay right?

But hey, if you are good with getting away with paying 7.5% and your children paying 15%, who am I to stop you from being a despicable human being.


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## daws101 (Sep 24, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Why wouldn't medicare recipients like the medicare ponzi scheme?  The only people that don't like ponzis are the ones that get left holding the empty bag at the end.


if you were correct and you're not, that would be the medicare recipients and not you.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 24, 2013)

daws101 said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Why wouldn't medicare recipients like the medicare ponzi scheme?  The only people that don't like ponzis are the ones that get left holding the empty bag at the end.
> ...



Correct.  I've got about 15years to go before I get to screw my children and grandchildren over by collecting on my ss/med checks.


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## daws101 (Sep 24, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> itfitzme said:
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translation: browneye has never had a job where SS was deducted! 
or he's too egotistical to admit he's wrong.


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## daws101 (Sep 24, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> daws101 said:
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really? funny... that would mean all this I love my country super patriot bullshit is just that....bullshit.
be a real american and don't take the SS money!
if you do then you'll be a socialist bootlicking toadie.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 24, 2013)

daws101 said:


> RKMBrown said:
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I fully funded my SS/Medicare to the max payouts before I turned 35. I have a letter attesting to that fact.  The fact that I'm gonna be screwed by being forced to pay 3-10 times more than I will ever withdraw from SS/Medicare is my point dufus.  My paycheck is being stolen against my will to fund an asinine ponzi SS/Medicare system.

It's not my fault you are to stupid to understand just how shitty this crappy program is.

I put 7% of my salary into my 401k, always have.  I'm a millionaire from it and the government, so far, can't touch it.  I'm forced to put 15% into SS/Medicare.  What a waste.  Pissing money away.


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## SteadyMercury (Sep 24, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> So ponzi schemes are ok as long as there are laws to force everyone to join and pay for it no matter how many times the cost doubles over the decades?


Social security explains what your projected benefits will be with the caveat that it is an estimate and future legislation (or lack thereof) may impact the accuracy of their estimates. They are quite transparent in their reports on finances, actuarial estimations, and tracking related legislation. 

A ponzi scheme is deceptive by definition (it is trying to convince people they are investing in something when they aren't) and thus opaque in operations. A completely different animal, and comparisons to the social security program are moronic.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 24, 2013)

daws101 said:


> RKMBrown said:
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Taxes and Bullshit government programs are "American" and if you don't support them you are "anti-American?"

Are you some sort of communist dirt wipe?


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## daws101 (Sep 24, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> daws101 said:
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what I understand is you're a greedy fuck, how did nothing to stem the rising cost of medical care in this country....now that stupidity at it's finest.
like I said, if you're the patriot you dream you were then you'd refuse the money. but you won't and that makes you just as corrupt as the rest of us.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 24, 2013)

SteadyMercury said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > So ponzi schemes are ok as long as there are laws to force everyone to join and pay for it no matter how many times the cost doubles over the decades?
> ...



Bullshit.  It's the same damn thing.  The only damn difference is, there is a law forcing you to bend over and take it up the ass.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 24, 2013)

daws101 said:


> RKMBrown said:
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Greedy?

It's my fucking money prick.  You want my money be a fucking man and come get it.  Stop hiding behind government guns.  Come take it.


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## daws101 (Sep 24, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> daws101 said:
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so taking money from a ponzi scheme is 
 patriotic.
the gop has been un american since the reagan years.
it's morphed into a theocracy and that's as un american as it gets.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 24, 2013)

daws101 said:


> RKMBrown said:
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It is a ponzi scheme, period.  It needs to be ended, period.  I would recommend writing a check to everyone for all the money they put into it, with an apology that it does not include an interest check.  I agree the GOP is no better than the democrats.


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## daws101 (Sep 24, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


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thanks for proving my point.


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## daws101 (Sep 24, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


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if you're a constitutional conservative then you are the gop.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 24, 2013)

daws101 said:


> RKMBrown said:
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Fool.  I work for my income, you take my income against my will, that's theft.  SS/Medicare is therefore not just a ponzi scheme, it's theft.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 24, 2013)

daws101 said:


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Not even close.  On "rare" occasions I may agree with a small "portion" of the republican party plank.  On some "rare" occasions I may agree with a small portion of the democrat party plank.  Hell, you and I might even agree on something, some day.  Shit, you might even change my mind on something.  Stranger things have happened.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 24, 2013)

Note:  SS was created at a time in history when retirement plans were "parachute" pension based not cash based.  The world has moved from pension systems that quickly become unfunded pension systems, to cash plans.  It's past time for our federal system to move forward.


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## SteadyMercury (Sep 24, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Bullshit.  It's the same damn thing.  The only damn difference is, there is a law forcing you to bend over and take it up the ass.


I already explained several differences, you are ignoring them because they aren't convenient to your argument.


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## daws101 (Sep 24, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


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really? I take your income? got any proof?  
I've been on my own since I was 18 worked my way to a masters degree,own my own home.
I've never taken anything I've not earned. 
as to taking your income against your will    that's bullshit you fantasize about, so you can rationalise that you're being mistreated.
no one twisted your arm to pay into SS or taxes  or put you in debtors prison for being late on the cable bill.
what a fucking drama queen!


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## LoneLaugher (Sep 24, 2013)

Damn, Brownie......you sure seem upset.


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## daws101 (Sep 24, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> daws101 said:
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true..they let you breed.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 24, 2013)

SteadyMercury said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Bullshit.  It's the same damn thing.  The only damn difference is, there is a law forcing you to bend over and take it up the ass.
> ...



Your so called differences were the equivalent of "it's not a ponzi" because I say "it's not a ponzi."  Compare and contrast the financials of every ponzi in history, to SS.  Then tell me how it's different.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 24, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Damn, Brownie......you sure seem upset.



Not really.  Just on a roll


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## RKMBrown (Sep 24, 2013)

daws101 said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
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> > daws101 said:
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Ayup and tonight's the night !!!


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## SteadyMercury (Sep 24, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Your so called differences were the equivalent of "it's not a ponzi" because I say "it's not a ponzi."


Clearly you have no idea what a ponzi scheme is, the differences I outlines are from that definition.



RKMBrown said:


> Compare and contrast the financials of every ponzi in history, to SS.


Ponzi schemes promise a good return on investment, social security makes no promises of any investment return. Ponzi schemes inevitably run out of new investors causing them to collapse, as long as people have babies social security will never run out of new taxpayers.

You're welcome.


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## daws101 (Sep 24, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


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does your wife know?


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## Snookie (Sep 25, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> itfitzme said:
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Do you know what the definition of investors is?

I am going to write a republican dictionary.  It seems you people love to change the meanings of words for sophistic purposes.

Investor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Wildman (Sep 25, 2013)

i say hang those sunzabitches who passed Obozocare into law in the first place then burn every page and copy of that law on their dead bodies.

too bad we lost our Republic when that fucking muslime mulatto was sworn in.  ...


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## Snookie (Sep 25, 2013)

Wildman said:


> i say hang those sunzabitches who passed Obozocare into law in the first place then burn every page and copy of that law on their dead bodies.
> 
> too bad we lost our Republic when that fucking muslime mulatto was sworn in.  ...



You are a perfect candidate for al queda.  Such hatred for our great country, you have.


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## Camp (Sep 25, 2013)

Snookie said:


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At some point the refusal to use words by there definitions becomes more than sophistic, it becomes outright lying. People make mistakes, so they can be expected to use words and prhases the wrong way, but after it is pointed out to them and the proper definition is supplied and they continue to use the word or phrase and ignore the factual definition, they become liars.


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## Wildman (Sep 25, 2013)

Snookie said:


> Wildman said:
> 
> 
> > i say hang those sunzabitches who passed Obozocare into law in the first place then burn every page and copy of that law on their dead bodies.
> ...



there is no hate for my country you son-of-a-bitch, i love my country and gave 25 years of my life defending it against this kind of commie take over, if you like what is currently being done then i say you are a fucking traitor !! what have you done to promote freedom and liberty for all ?

just looking at your avatar photo, i can tell you are a Nancy Pelousy, Fineswine, John Kerry loving asshole and a muslime mulatto pole smoker FUCK YOU !!  ...  ...   ...  ...  ...  ...


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## Wildman (Sep 25, 2013)

i wish i had read this before submitting my post,
*



			Pete7469
Fuck you, you insipid oxygen thief. If you lived in any other country you would have starved to death before puberty. Ifit wasn't for child resistant lids on household chemicals, you would have been found dead under a kitchen sink with a stomach full of Drano. It's a shame you weren't aborted, but it's not too late. Try a "do-it-yourself" retroactive abortion today you mindless fucking parasite.
		
Click to expand...

*
right on Pete, i could not have said it better myself, i congratulate you for your patriotism and flushing out this qweer bassturd  (sic)


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## RKMBrown (Sep 25, 2013)

SteadyMercury said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Your so called differences were the equivalent of "it's not a ponzi" because I say "it's not a ponzi."
> ...



>>> Ponzi schemes promise a good return on investment, social security makes no promises of any investment return. 

Lie.

>>> Ponzi schemes inevitably run out of new investors causing them to collapse, as long as people have babies social security will never run out of new taxpayers.

As I said FORCED CONSCRIPTION.  Forcing people to join by threat of jail... you should be ashamed.

>>> You're welcome.

No thanks.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 25, 2013)

Snookie said:


> RKMBrown said:
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The community voted wikipedia is not a dictionary.  And yes I know what the definition of investor(s) is.  Now, you answer my questions.

invest:  to commit (money) in order to earn a financial return. (Websters.)  The money is SS/Med fees forcibly and voluntarily taken by the IRS, the financial return is paid SS checks and paid Medicare Premiums, and other paid programs of SS and Medicare.  Odd that I have to draw it out for you, I thought more of you.  My bad.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 25, 2013)

Camp said:


> Snookie said:
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The word is their not there. The spelling is phrases, not prhases.  I'm not the one abusing the use of terms.


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## Camp (Sep 25, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Camp said:
> 
> 
> > Snookie said:
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Yes you are. I made a grammar mistake and a typo mistake. That is not the same as redefining words and phrases. You are attempting to change the definition of the phrase ponzi scheme. My poor grammar and typo mistakes have nothing to do with that.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 25, 2013)

Camp said:


> RKMBrown said:
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> > Camp said:
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And you are a liar.  I did not attempt to do anything of the kind. I'm using the terms as defined, as they were intended, and as they have been used throughout history.  It is you who are trying to redefine SS into what?  If not investment, what is it?  You are a coward that hides behind the sheets.  Come out and offer a differing opinion vs. attacking me personally for my use of the term "investment" to describe SS.  

Here, read about the "rates of return" for SS tax vs. other investments from the SSA web site:

Internal Real Rates of Return

You'll note they stopped counting rates of return for folks earning more then 69k.  This because those folks are getting screwed and they did not want to show that on the chart.


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## Camp (Sep 25, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


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Where did I attack you personally?


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## Foxfyre (Sep 25, 2013)

Few people would classify legalized theft as an investment.  An investment is generally considered to be voluntary.




> *in·vest·ment* [ in véstm&#601;nt ]
> use of money for future profit: the outlay of money, e.g. by depositing it in a bank or by buying stock in a company, with the object of making a profit.
> 
> money invested: an amount of money invested in something for the purpose of making a profit.
> ...



If A is an investment broker.

However. . . .

B invests $100 with A expecting X return on the money.

But rather than growing the $100, A instead spends the money and takes money from C in order to pay B.

Can you say Bernie Madoff?



> *World English Dictionary*
> Ponzi scheme  (&#712;p&#594;nz&#618 &#8212; n
> a fraudulent investment operation that pays quick returns to initial contributors using money from subsequent contributors rather than profit.



Now which of these two definitions looks more like Social Security?


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## Snookie (Sep 25, 2013)

Wildman said:


> Snookie said:
> 
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25 of your life, my ass.  You were well compensated for it.  You should be ashamed of your self.  You took an oath to defend the constitution and now you are trying to destroy everything it stands for.

BTW, the Berlin wall was torn down long ago.  Russia and China no longer practice pure communism,.  Do you read?:  Can you read, you stupid fuck?


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## RKMBrown (Sep 25, 2013)

Snookie said:


> Wildman said:
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WOW, just when I thought we had hit bottom shnook proves that libtards are capable of far worse than they have shown.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 25, 2013)

Camp said:


> RKMBrown said:
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> > Camp said:
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"You are attempting to change the definition of the phrase ponzi scheme."

I'm doing nothing of the kind. Nor am I attempting to change the definition of investment, which is what I thought you said.  I may have misread your intent.  I take the accusation of intentional and egregious changes of terms as an affront, when in fact that is not the case.  It is a ponzi by every measure except one.  The government is above the law, thus it's not a ponzi because they say its not a ponzi.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 25, 2013)

Foxfyre said:


> Few people would classify legalized theft as an investment.  An investment is generally considered to be voluntary.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Some people voluntarily write checks to the SSA, granted they would go to jail if they refuse.

While I agree investments are generally voluntary, there's no denying that there is a rate of return on SS deposits for some lucky few.  Money goes into an account, money comes out.  Some people loose more than they put in some get more than they put in.  Most investments have a variable rate of return, many if not most can actually loose money.  It's the same damn thing with SS.  The only real difference is, in this case government mandates it by law, unless you get an exemption.  Exemptions include priests, I believe one religion, and some federal union employees.  

By design, it started out as a ponzi, and still is a ponzi.  Each and every successive generation has had to pay twice as much as the previous generation by % of income.  This pyramid proves without a shadow of doubt that it is a ponzi.  The only final nail in the coffin is the last generation getting left holding the 50t + bag and nothing but IOUs in return.

It is well known that the only way to "save" this program is to cut the benefits, again, and/or increase the amount taken.


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## Dot Com (Sep 25, 2013)

Snookie said:


> Wildman said:
> 
> 
> > i say hang those sunzabitches who passed Obozocare into law in the first place then burn every page and copy of that law on their dead bodies.
> ...



seriously, that kid is an asswipe.


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## Snookie (Sep 25, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Camp said:
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I don't have to even respond to your posts.  Even a retarded RWer can tell that you are full of bs.  I swear, you kids on the internet posing, is so obvious.


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## itfitzme (Sep 25, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> > Few people would classify legalized theft as an investment.  An investment is generally considered to be voluntary.
> ...



That's what I've been saying, just raise the tax.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 25, 2013)

itfitzme said:


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I'd be ok with raising the tax if we make it retroactive to the people collecting.  Why should prior generations keep getting SS for a discount rate and subsequent generations get punished with the higher rate?  This is my point regarding the pyramid/ponzi nature of the program.  Each prior generation has been all to willing to let the next generation pay double for the same payout.

At best you could argue that subsequent generations live longer so they should pay more.  But the problem I see with that argument is that we don't all live the same number of years.  For example, blacks are known to live a less number of average years.  As another example, men... As still another example, people with known end of life events, even, are still mandated to pay the tax even through it is known that they will not live to collect.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 25, 2013)

Further the amount paid out should be reflected by the amount put in and not be artificially capped.


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## itfitzme (Sep 25, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


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So?  Who told you that laws and taxes are suppose to be adjusted precisely to you personally? It would be nice, but it would also be ridiculously inefficient.  We would end up paying many factors more to manage such a thing.

That you are suppose to like it isn't in the Constitution.  That you don't like it doesn't make it a ponzi scheme.

And the fact of the matter is, the amount of tax that you pay has absolutely no medium or long term direct effect on your spending power. Your employer see it as taxes he has to pay, not you.  If your taxes are decreased, prices rise and any income increase is delayed.  Your employer sees your tax decrease as a raise for you.  

The fact of the matter is, it doesn't matter what your tax levels is, unless you happen to be in that smaller group where it is lower than everyone else.

The fact of the matter is, what counts is the employment level and what those people are producing.  The $ just counts it.


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## itfitzme (Sep 25, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Further the amount paid out should be reflected by the amount put in and not be artificially capped.



No it shouldn't.  That is just what you want it to be.  Tuff shit.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 25, 2013)

itfitzme said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
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> > Further the amount paid out should be reflected by the amount put in and not be artificially capped.
> ...



Choke on it.


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## itfitzme (Sep 25, 2013)

Snookie said:


> RKMBrown said:
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True, you don't have to.  So you should stop.  In fact, you should stop reading them as well.

It won't change the fact that SSI isn't a ponzi scheme or that you just make up shit based on "I don't like it."

All your saying is "I don't like you."  So what?  Your a self centered moron, why should anyone care if you like them?  Frankly, I don't like you.


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## itfitzme (Sep 25, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


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Tuff shit.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 25, 2013)

itfitzme said:


> RKMBrown said:
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Wrong.  The amount of money you get from SS is already adjusted based on the amount put in.  I'm not talking about complicating it.  I'm talking about removing the injustice of capping the adjustment to returns for earning 69k income vs cap for the amount put in which is currently set to cap at 113k. I find it disgusting that the middle class who make between 69 and 113k are being singled out for this injustice.


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## itfitzme (Sep 25, 2013)

Snookie said:


> RKMBrown said:
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"by every measure except one"  By every measure but one, water kill you when you drink it.  Sulfuric acid is a liquid.... water is a liquid.  Sulfuric acid is a solvent... Water is a solvent.  By every measure but one, water is poisonous.  Oh, except that one measure that it isn't.

By every measure but one, you are a chimpanzee.  You have arms and legs.  A chimpanzee has arms and legs.  So by every measure but one, you belong in the zoo.

By definition, a ponzi scheme is fraudulent.  "by every measure except one"  Yeah, by the only one that counts.  SSI is not fraudulent.  It is not illegal.  It is not a ponzi scheme.  It is a mandated social insurance program.


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## Snookie (Sep 25, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


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We don't need to raise ss tax.  SS jusyt has to collect the two trillion owed it by the general fund who pillaged it.  Cash in those iou's.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 25, 2013)

itfitzme said:


> RKMBrown said:
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Choke on it again.


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## Snookie (Sep 25, 2013)

itfitzme said:


> Snookie said:
> 
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I think we should get paid for educating children here.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 25, 2013)

Snookie said:


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I believe the two trillion is the IOUs.  The issue is when those IOUs are gone, the unfunded promises will require additional taxes or loans.


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## itfitzme (Sep 25, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


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" The amount of money you get from SS is already adjusted based on the amount put in. ".

I never said it wasn't.  You cannot read. You make up shit to argue about.

It isn't an injustice.  Just because you don't like it, doesn't make it an injustice.  SSI does what it can with the money that it collects.  It cannot pay out more than it collected and maintains a trust fund to manage things over the long term.

In my opinion, SSI should be reduced for every dollar you collect from other personal retirement funds, like a 401K.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 25, 2013)

Snookie said:


> itfitzme said:
> 
> 
> > Snookie said:
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The only way your getting a dime from me is through a proxy such as the government that threatens to put me and my children in the street if I don't pay up.


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## itfitzme (Sep 25, 2013)

Snookie said:


> itfitzme said:
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> > Snookie said:
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Yes, I should get paid for educating you.  Unfortunately, your perfomance on learning is below par.

Your performance on jerking off your own feelings is very high though, you get an "A" for being a jerk off.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 25, 2013)

itfitzme said:


> RKMBrown said:
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> > itfitzme said:
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You said "Who told you that laws and taxes are suppose to be adjusted precisely to you personally? It would be nice, but it would also be ridiculously inefficient. We would end up paying many factors more to manage such a thing."  In response I explained that this is already the case.  Then you cry you never said it wasn't.  Are you retarded?  Never mind that is clear from your declaration that you don't deserve SS checks if you have a 401k plan. My god what the hell is wrong with you retarded 7-Eleven clerks.


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## Snookie (Sep 25, 2013)

itfitzme said:


> Snookie said:
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Ooooooo, strict disciplinarian.

btw, I think you got my post wrong.  I was not talking about you.  I was talking about the person you quoted.


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## daws101 (Sep 25, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> itfitzme said:
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choke on what? hiding some other inadequacy ?


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## Camp (Sep 25, 2013)

The problem as I see it that is going on here in this banter is this. Years ago some  effort was made to convince the public that the way to save SS was kill it and privatize it. Part of this effort including planting false ideas in peoples understanding of SS and what it is. People were infuenced into thinking of it in terms of an "investment" and convinced that they could do better by investing privately. Made sense as long as the insurance aspect was left out and it was pointed out that a person could loose huge amounts in the stock market. Once the investment aspect was discredited that dog stopped hunting.
The phrase Ponzi Scheme was used as a scare tactic. People were led to believe the government was involved in some fraudulent and crimminal activity and just collecting your money out of every paycheck, using a little to pay reciepients and squandering or stealing the rest. "The money won't be there when it is your turn to collect" was the mantra. The SS Reserve was nothing more than worthless IOU's was the implication. This was debunked and discredited too. The so called worthless IOU's were owed and quarenteed by the government in the form of Treasury Notes. Only the default of the USA on it's debt's would result in participants of the program not being paid. 
Hence, we are just rehashing a propaganda campaign that died and was buried a decade ago with a guy that for whatever reason, just refuses to accept reality and seems to get somewhat angry and insulting when facts and reality are put in front of him.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 25, 2013)

daws101 said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > itfitzme said:
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My child's food money.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 25, 2013)

Camp said:


> The problem as I see it that is going on here in this banter is this. Years ago some  effort was made to convince the public that the way to save SS was kill it and privatize it. Part of this effort including planting false ideas in peoples understanding of SS and what it is. People were infuenced into thinking of it in terms of an "investment" and convinced that they could do better by investing privately. Made sense as long as the insurance aspect was left out and it was pointed out that a person could loose huge amounts in the stock market. Once the investment aspect was discredited that dog stopped hunting.
> The phrase Ponzi Scheme was used as a scare tactic. People were led to believe the government was involved in some fraudulent and crimminal activity and just collecting your money out of every paycheck, using a little to pay reciepients and squandering or stealing the rest. "The money won't be there when it is your turn to collect" was the mantra. The SS Reserve was nothing more than worthless IOU's was the implication. This was debunked and discredited too. The so called worthless IOU's were owed and quarenteed by the government in the form of Treasury Notes. Only the default of the USA on it's debt's would result in participants of the program not being paid.
> Hence, we are just rehashing a propaganda campaign that died and was buried a decade ago with a guy that for whatever reason, just refuses to accept reality and seems to get somewhat angry and insulting when facts and reality are put in front of him.



ROFL you must be one of those koolaid drunks that believe the 17trillion+ debt and 50+ trillion in unfunded SS/Medicare promises are just a drop in the bucket to be kicked along to your children.  

DESPICABLE.  I spit on your shoes.


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## Uncensored2008 (Sep 25, 2013)

Snookie said:


> I don't have to even respond to your posts.  Even a retarded RWer can tell that you are full of bs.  I swear, you kids on the internet posing, is so obvious.



Rich irony from a troll..

Now run along and burn a cross on someones front lawn - let the grown ups talk.


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## Snookie (Sep 25, 2013)

Uncensored2008 said:


> Snookie said:
> 
> 
> > I don't have to even respond to your posts.  Even a retarded RWer can tell that you are full of bs.  I swear, you kids on the internet posing, is so obvious.
> ...


Want a cracker, cracka?


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## Snookie (Sep 25, 2013)

Camp said:


> The problem as I see it that is going on here in this banter is this. Years ago some  effort was made to convince the public that the way to save SS was kill it and privatize it. Part of this effort including planting false ideas in peoples understanding of SS and what it is. People were infuenced into thinking of it in terms of an "investment" and convinced that they could do better by investing privately. Made sense as long as the insurance aspect was left out and it was pointed out that a person could loose huge amounts in the stock market. Once the investment aspect was discredited that dog stopped hunting.
> The phrase Ponzi Scheme was used as a scare tactic. People were led to believe the government was involved in some fraudulent and crimminal activity and just collecting your money out of every paycheck, using a little to pay reciepients and squandering or stealing the rest. "The money won't be there when it is your turn to collect" was the mantra. The SS Reserve was nothing more than worthless IOU's was the implication. This was debunked and discredited too. The so called worthless IOU's were owed and quarenteed by the government in the form of Treasury Notes. Only the default of the USA on it's debt's would result in participants of the program not being paid.
> Hence, we are just rehashing a propaganda campaign that died and was buried a decade ago with a guy that for whatever reason, just refuses to accept reality and seems to get somewhat angry and insulting when facts and reality are put in front of him.



That's what republicans have always done.  They don't run for something.  They run against something.

They are trying to do it with obama care but people have wised up to their demonetization of their opponent's successes.


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## daws101 (Sep 25, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> daws101 said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...


your kids still too young to work.?


----------



## RKMBrown (Sep 25, 2013)

daws101 said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > daws101 said:
> ...



One is an ER nurse at a trauma one center, might get married off soon.  One son in college studying for his BSEE.  One son in HS will probably be the valedictorian.   The boys have part time jobs.


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## daws101 (Sep 25, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> daws101 said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...


so what you is is a half truth.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 25, 2013)

daws101 said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > daws101 said:
> ...



Perhaps.  I've deposited millions in taxes during my "high" earning years. Most of which I would have preferred go to deserving charities and my children.  Instead of just sending my boy away at college food money I send him away with bunch of frozen chicken that I get on sale for 1-2 bucks a pound, bulk rice, frozen veggies etc. every couple weeks.  Teaching him the value of money, and it's nice to have him come home once in a while when he runs short 

I suppose you can make mountains out of mole hills if you try hard enough.


----------



## daws101 (Sep 25, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> daws101 said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...


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## RKMBrown (Sep 25, 2013)

daws101 said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > daws101 said:
> ...



Charities are bullshit? My children don't deserve what I want to give them? Or Taxes are bullshit?

If you mean high taxes are bullshit.. I agree.  They are bullshit.


----------



## daws101 (Sep 25, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> daws101 said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...


wrong! your story reeks of bullshit.


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## RKMBrown (Sep 25, 2013)

daws101 said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > daws101 said:
> ...


Which part dirt bag.  Man up.  Stop hiding behind broad accusations.  Be specific.


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## daws101 (Sep 25, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> daws101 said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...


I thought it was highly specific.
unless you won the lottery or were a trust fund baby or invented a game changing product ,big in showbiz (well not the last one I was in the biz for 30 years and I'd have recognized you)
how could you afford millions in taxes ?


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## RKMBrown (Sep 25, 2013)

daws101 said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > daws101 said:
> ...



I can't afford millions in taxes that's my point.  

10years over 100k, 5years over 150k, 5years over 200k, 5years over 250k  / Corporate Income tax, Personal Income tax, SS, Med, Sales tax, Real Estate Tax... all add up to about 50%.  Do the math.

I'm a computer software guy... Don't know anything about the Hollywood scene.  I'm done working hard to pay high taxes now, gonna coast from here on in.

Funny you mentioned inventions... I'm the primary inventor on a few hundred patents.


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## itfitzme (Sep 27, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> itfitzme said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



Having a tax bracket isn't adjusting for you personally.  You know what "personally" means, don't you?


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## The2ndAmendment (Mar 18, 2014)

So, as I knew would happen, I cannot return to Stony Brook University because now I'm working 60+ hours at two jobs making less money than I was beforehand.


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## Sallow (Mar 18, 2014)

RKMBrown said:


> daws101 said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



Wait.

Are you the multi millionaire that traveled back in time and helped Alan Turing invent the computer, flashed forward and taught Dennis Ritchie C code and stole Bill Gate's lunch Money?


----------



## LoneLaugher (Mar 18, 2014)

The2ndAmendment said:


> So, as I knew would happen, I cannot return to Stony Brook University because now I'm working 60+ hours at two jobs making less money than I was beforehand.



You are still lying about this?  Sad.


----------



## edthecynic (Mar 18, 2014)

The2ndAmendment said:


> In the previously deleted thread, all the Authoritarian scumbags were delighted that I'd be forced to get foodstamps and medicaid.
> 
> Instead of trying to create a prosperous America, they revealed their hate, spite and contempt for the working people, and made their intentions known, that they wish to drag us down with them.


----------



## The2ndAmendment (Mar 18, 2014)

LoneLaugher said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > So, as I knew would happen, I cannot return to Stony Brook University because now I'm working 60+ hours at two jobs making less money than I was beforehand.
> ...



My identity, job confirmation and the authenticity of this story were confirmed four times in this thread, at the expense of my releasing a lot of personal information.

Check post #14.

It's also interesting to see how quick you responded to the bump of this thread, since you were the primary antagonist during this thread's prime.

Have you been assigned to this thread? Who's paying you?


----------



## RKMBrown (Mar 18, 2014)

Sallow said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > daws101 said:
> ...



No.  You've been dreaming about me again?


----------



## Foxfyre (Mar 18, 2014)

My husband and I are definitely senior citizens and he is currently going through a series of treatments for cancer.  And we, on a limited fixed income, are experiencing the joys of Obamacare up close and personal.

Before Obamacare we paid a reasonable copay at the doctor's office and we paid it once for the initial visit and not for any follow up visits.  Our hospital copay was $200 for inpatient care and the same as the doctor's visit for outpatient care.

Now that Obamacare has kicked in, our copay has increased by 75% and we have to pay it every time we see the doctor, the hospital copay has increased 200% and now applies to outpatient procedures too, several things that were once covered are no longer covered and our monthly premiums have increased 38%.  

Both he and I have lost our primary care doctors and he lost his cancer doctor as all left the system rather than deal with Obamacare.

But by golly I have maternity coverage.

Isn't it just wonderful?


----------



## RKMBrown (Mar 18, 2014)

Foxfyre said:


> My husband and I are definitely senior citizens and he is currently going through a series of treatments for cancer.  And we, on a limited fixed income, are experiencing the joys of Obamacare up close and personal.
> 
> Before Obamacare we paid a reasonable copay at the doctor's office and we paid it once for the initial visit and not for any follow up visits.  Our hospital copay was $200 for inpatient care and the same as the doctor's visit for outpatient care.
> 
> ...



Hater.  You just need to learn to share more.  Some illegal immigrant is gonna benefit from your pain, so you should be happy about that.


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## edthecynic (Mar 18, 2014)

Foxfyre said:


> My husband and I are definitely *senior citizens* and he is currently going through a series of treatments for cancer.  And we, on a limited fixed income, are experiencing the joys of Obamacare up close and personal.
> 
> Before Obamacare we paid a reasonable copay at the doctor's office and we paid it once for the initial visit and not for any follow up visits.  Our hospital copay was $200 for inpatient care and the same as the doctor's visit for outpatient care.
> 
> ...


BULLSHIT, Obamacare has nothing to do with seniors, seniors use medicare. Nothing has changed with MY medicare and I'm sure none of those changes happened to your medicare either.


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## Foxfyre (Mar 18, 2014)

edthecynic said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> > My husband and I are definitely *senior citizens* and he is currently going through a series of treatments for cancer.  And we, on a limited fixed income, are experiencing the joys of Obamacare up close and personal.
> ...



Well you could have fooled me.  And my bank account.  It is true that there is minimal changes in Medicare so far, but few seniors can afford not to also have supplemental insurance because of all that Medicare does not cover.  So if you don't have that you're right, there is little change other than a premium increase for you.  If your supplemental insurance is the same well good for you.  The vast majority of us are seeing large changes.


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## edthecynic (Mar 18, 2014)

Foxfyre said:


> edthecynic said:
> 
> 
> > Foxfyre said:
> ...


My Medicare Advantage plan does not take one penny extra in premium only what I already pay to Medicare, primary care visit is $5, specialist visit is 15$, out of pocket max is $4,500, Chemo Drugs 20%, other part B drugs 20%, Home Health Care $0, Annual part B deductible $0.

You are getting hosed by your greedy insurance company.


----------



## daws101 (Mar 18, 2014)

edthecynic said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> > edthecynic said:
> ...


might be time for fox to check out the ACA...


----------



## LoneLaugher (Mar 18, 2014)

The2ndAmendment said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > The2ndAmendment said:
> ...



Oh no! You have found me out! Please......don't tell anyone. I promise to believe your bullshit from now on! Please!!!


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## Uncensored2008 (Mar 18, 2014)

edthecynic said:


> BULLSHIT, Obamacare has nothing to do with seniors, seniors use medicare. Nothing has changed with MY medicare and I'm sure none of those changes happened to your medicare either.








I feel your pain, edtheliar.


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## Uncensored2008 (Mar 18, 2014)

daws101 said:


> might be time for fox to check out the ACA...



What's the point? Our lord dictator changes it every fucking day.


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## daws101 (Mar 18, 2014)

Uncensored2008 said:


> daws101 said:
> 
> 
> > might be time for fox to check out the ACA...
> ...


kind like medicare...


----------



## The2ndAmendment (Mar 18, 2014)

Foxfyre said:


> My husband and I are definitely senior citizens and he is currently going through a series of treatments for cancer.  And we, on a limited fixed income, are experiencing the joys of Obamacare up close and personal.
> 
> Before Obamacare we paid a reasonable copay at the doctor's office and we paid it once for the initial visit and not for any follow up visits.  Our hospital copay was $200 for inpatient care and the same as the doctor's visit for outpatient care.
> 
> ...



When I first wrote about my horror story, I've discovered that there are even more horrific stories tan mine, lots of them. An it really takes a lot for a story to be worse than mine.


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Mar 18, 2014)

daws101 said:


> kind like medicare...



Medicare is rolled into Obamacare. Obama did that so he could raid the Medicare funds. Haven't you been paying any attention at all?

ObamaCare 2013


----------



## edthecynic (Mar 18, 2014)

Uncensored2008 said:


> daws101 said:
> 
> 
> > kind like medicare...
> ...


Do you mean the Medicare waste Ryan cut to give tax breaks to the rich that Obama used to strengthen Medicare?


----------



## daws101 (Mar 18, 2014)

Uncensored2008 said:


> daws101 said:
> 
> 
> > kind like medicare...
> ...


what he said Obamacare just ruined my life - Page 74 - US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum


----------



## The2ndAmendment (May 9, 2015)

TemplarKormac said:


> Wait till this hits liberals in the wallet. Their lives may be ruined as well.



In the year of 2015, we can certainly see the effect it has had.


----------



## LoneLaugher (May 9, 2015)

The2ndAmendment said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > Wait till this hits liberals in the wallet. Their lives may be ruined as well.
> ...



Look! The guy with a ruined life has survived the apocalypse! Way to go, dummy! 

Wait.....aren't you supposed to be packing for the academy by now? Preparing for your government controlled health care? You lying fuck, you.


----------



## daws101 (May 9, 2015)

not to worry jade helm 15 will take care of that!


----------



## RKMBrown (May 9, 2015)

LoneLaugher said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...


^ JERK THINKS IT'S FUNNY TO STEAL FOOD OFF CHILDREN'S TABLES THEN DANCE THE HAPPY DANCE OVER THEIR FACES


----------



## LoneLaugher (May 9, 2015)

RKMBrown said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > The2ndAmendment said:
> ...



What r u talking about, dummy?


----------



## RKMBrown (May 9, 2015)

LoneLaugher said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...


No I'm not talking about dummy, I'm talking about you and your other pro-redistribution of income friends.


----------



## LoneLaugher (May 9, 2015)

RKMBrown said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



You gettin' high this afternoon?


----------



## RKMBrown (May 9, 2015)

LoneLaugher said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...


Not yet.


----------



## LoneLaugher (May 9, 2015)

RKMBrown said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



Fooled me. Give me some of what you haven't had yet, then.


----------



## emilynghiem (May 9, 2015)

edthecynic said:


> Foxfyre said:
> 
> 
> > My husband and I are definitely *senior citizens* and he is currently going through a series of treatments for cancer.  And we, on a limited fixed income, are experiencing the joys of Obamacare up close and personal.
> ...



Dear edthecynic and Foxfyre 
Arguing about whether or not Obama care works
comes across to me like arguing whether spiritual healing as practiced in Christianity works and reduces
costs and complications of health issues (as well as curing the cause of addiction, abuse etc etc)

Ed and Fox REGARDLESS what works how,
What the Constitutional opposition objects to is
why is Govt in charge of regulating this for citizens;
similar to if Christian spiritual healing were to required by Govt for all citizens to fund.

If you can imagine that scenario,
half the people would be arguing to separate this from Govt,
while the other half would be arguing "but it still works the same"

What has CHANGED with ACA is the FORCED RELATIONSHIP.
People are now REQUIRED to either buy insurance or have a growing percentage
of salary/income taken out by federal govt and paid into this system we didn't vote on.

That will continue to be the underlying issue.
The fact requirements were added that are MANDATORY.

That issue can't be resolved by sidetracking and addressing
"whether or not things work the same, different better or worse"

The issue is the RELATIONSHIP with citizens and govt,
and whether or not these programs are VOLUNTARY.

That's always been the underlying issue.
The other issues are symptoms or projections of the root conflict that is being avoided.


----------



## Vandalshandle (May 10, 2015)

As I recall, when Medicare kicked in in 1966, it took about 6 years before the Right finally stopped claiming that America had been taken over by the communists.

{sigh}


----------



## RKMBrown (May 10, 2015)

LoneLaugher said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
> ...


it gone...


----------



## LoneLaugher (May 10, 2015)

RKMBrown said:


> LoneLaugher said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



Ya bogarting SOB, ya!


----------



## Kondor3 (May 10, 2015)

francoHFW said:


> ...this was unforseen...


Unforeseen?

Nonsense.

People were warning about this ages ago.

A blind man could have seen it coming a mile away.



> ...and is a result of pub fear mongering and pub/pub dupe owners...


No.

This is a result of the LIberals who dreamed-up and rammed this shit through Congress, not listening to those earlier common-sense warnings.

We'll just have to wait until it hits you personally, I guess, before we see a change in your own attitude on the subject.


----------



## francoHFW (May 10, 2015)

Kondor3 said:


> francoHFW said:
> 
> 
> > ...this was unforseen...
> ...


Way to take my quotes so out of context even I have no clue what I was talking about. Just like your lying scumbag bought off greedy heroes...

BREAKING for hater dupes: O-Care is doing great- the ACTUAL costs are in. Except in mindless red states and areas, of course....


----------



## francoHFW (May 10, 2015)

The2ndAmendment said:


> I just received a letter from my job stating that no one will be working more than 30 hours a week.
> 
> I normally worked 48-52 hours per week generating 10 hours of regular play, and 8-12 hours of overtime time. Each hour I work averages an ADDITIONAL $ 11.25 in tips.
> 
> ...


 Any of that turn out to be factual? If so, find a not fear mongered hater dupe boss....


----------



## Kondor3 (May 10, 2015)

francoHFW said:


> ...Way to take my quotes so out of context even I have no clue what I was talking about...


Your quote was not taken out of context.

It was merely visually isolated in order to zero-in on it.

You were in the middle of dissing Republicans and business owners as being to-blame for our posting colleague's healthcare -related misfortune.

I was in the middle of spraying some metaphorical antiseptic solution on that festering pack of lies.



> ...Just like your lying scumbag bought off greedy heroes...


What lying scumbag bought-off greedy heroes would those be?

And what the hell does that have to do with the idea that ObamaCare is triggering scores of thousands of such casualties across our national landscape?



> ...BREAKING for hater dupes: O-Care is doing great- the ACTUAL costs are in. Except in mindless red states and areas, of course....


Is it paying for itself yet?

If "No", then, it's not doing as 'great' as you seem to believe, and it will not prove sustainable.


----------



## francoHFW (May 10, 2015)

A) Of course I was. Megarich Pubs are shills for ridiculously expensive and cruel Big Health, and obviously scared the hell out of his boss....
B) Yes.


----------



## Vandalshandle (May 10, 2015)

ACA would have ruined my life, if I had not retired. As VP of underwriting for several HMO's, my profession was to deny coverage for people with pre-existing medical conditions.


----------



## dblack (May 10, 2015)

g5000 said:


> chikenwing said:
> 
> 
> > Your current company is just as much to blame as ObamaCare.
> ...



That's completely unfounded. Lot's of good jobs don't provide health insurance as part of the compensation package.


----------



## Anathema (May 10, 2015)

Ah. So nice to know that'll never be me. My UNION CONTACT requires a 40 hour work week. It requires health care be provided at a reasonable cost. It does not allow the Company to force me to work OT except in extreme circumstances.  

Sound's like you bit off more than you can chew dude. Sorry to hear that but it's your problem,  not ours. Obamacare may be crap but it seems you've got bigger problems.


----------



## Vandalshandle (May 10, 2015)

Anathema said:


> Ah. So nice to know that'll never be me. My UNION CONTACT requires a 40 hour work week. It requires health care be provided at a reasonable cost. It does not allow the Company to force me to work OT except in extreme circumstances.
> 
> Sound's like you bit off more than you can chew dude. Sorry to hear that but it's your problem,  not ours. Obamacare may be crap but it seems you've got bigger problems.



Studebaker employees had a contract like that!


----------



## The2ndAmendment (May 10, 2015)

francoHFW said:


> A) Of course I was. Megarich Pubs are shills for ridiculously expensive and cruel Big Health, and obviously scared the hell out of his boss....
> B) Yes.



Dude, trying talking in a single coherent sentence...at least once.


----------



## The2ndAmendment (May 10, 2015)

dblack said:


> g5000 said:
> 
> 
> > chikenwing said:
> ...



... I was able to afford my own health insurance until Obamacare happened. That's the irony.


----------



## Dot Com (May 10, 2015)

looks like OP still has internet access. "Ruined" is not the term that comes to mind.


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## The2ndAmendment (May 10, 2015)

Dot Com said:


> looks like OP still has internet access. "Ruined" is not the term that comes to mind.



Your party should run on that attitude in 2016


----------



## Dot Com (May 10, 2015)

The2ndAmendment said:


> Dot Com said:
> 
> 
> > looks like OP still has internet access. "Ruined" is not the term that comes to mind.
> ...


huh?

You said your life was "ruined". Your definition & mine vary greatly.


----------



## thanatos144 (May 10, 2015)

Dot Com said:


> The2ndAmendment said:
> 
> 
> > Dot Com said:
> ...


Since you are a retard you definition wont ever matter.


----------



## Anathema (May 10, 2015)

Vandalshandle said:


> Studebaker employees had a contract like that!



I can't say I'm familiar with you analogy; but utility companies rarely go out of business and a Union that's more than 50 years old rarely fall. 

When 100% of your operational workforce is Unionized and about 30-40% of your inside workforce is Unionized,  a Company has little option but to treat us with decency and respect. If 10,000 of your 14,000 employees are Union workers you really can't slit your own throat by passing them off.


----------



## francoHFW (May 10, 2015)

The2ndAmendment said:


> francoHFW said:
> 
> 
> > A) Of course I was. Megarich Pubs are shills for ridiculously expensive and cruel Big Health, and obviously scared the hell out of his boss....
> ...


 You and your boss are fear mongered hater dupes. Try the exchange. Or wait for him.


----------



## Vandalshandle (May 10, 2015)

Anathema said:


> Vandalshandle said:
> 
> 
> > Studebaker employees had a contract like that!
> ...



There is no economic security in America for anyone anymore, union or not. My stepfather was hired by Henry Ford personally, when Ford opened his first auto assembly plant in Atlanta in the 1920's. He worked for Ford all of his working life, and was union. The plant eventually moved to Hapeville. Today, the plant is gone. They no longer make Fords in Atlanta. The people who depended on Ford and the union for health insurance no longer have either working for their interests. However, here in the Santa Cruz river valley, a train fully loaded with new Fords travels north across the  border from Nogales, every other night. You see, Ford does not have to contribute to Mexican workers health insurance plans.


----------



## Anathema (May 10, 2015)

Vandalshandle said:


> There is no economic security in America for anyone anymore, union or not. My stepfather was hired by Henry Ford personally, when Ford opened his first auto assembly plant in Atlanta in the 1920's. He worked for Ford all of his working life, and was union. The plant eventually moved to Hapeville. Today, the plant is gone. They no longer make Fords in Atlanta. The people who depended on Ford and the union for health insurance no longer have either working for their interests. However, here in the Santa Cruz river valley, a train fully loaded with new Fords travels north across the  border from Nogales, every other night. You see, Ford does not have to contribute to Mexican workers health insurance plans.



Utility companies don't up and move out of town. They merge and break up but the NLRB requires those new companies to recognize existing contracts.  Nothing is a perfect situation but we're pretty damn close.


----------



## Wyatt earp (May 11, 2015)

dblack said:


> g5000 said:
> 
> 
> > chikenwing said:
> ...


 Name them pre obama care?


----------



## dblack (May 11, 2015)

bear513 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > g5000 said:
> ...



Name them???  I could tell you about mine, or friends of mine - but I won't. Or you could just admit the obvious - there's no reason employers need to supply us with health insurance. They can simply give us whatever money they would have spent on insurance for us, and we can buy our own insurance. It's exactly that dynamic, people depending on their employer instead of taking care of it themselves, that created the problems we're dealing with now.


----------



## Foxfyre (May 11, 2015)

dblack said:


> bear513 said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



In fact, if I was designing the ideal insurance plan, there would be no employer groups, but only groups representing the insurance coverage that best meets the needs of a particular group of people.  There would be minimum group plans and Cadillac group plans and everything in between and everybody would choose the plan--i.e. join the group--that best met their needs and pocket book.  Family plans could be designed for those that would work better for.

The employer could offer to pay some or all of his/her employees insurance coverage, up to a certain amount, as a company perk or an incentive for employees to get coverage, but the policy would go with the employee when he/she left that company.

There would be no need for the federal government to be involved in that at all other than to enforce any violation of RICO or anti trust laws.


----------



## Dot Com (May 11, 2015)

So you people admit that the status quo (before Obamneycare) was unsustainable [rates were rising at an alarming rate]. Finally.


----------



## daws101 (May 11, 2015)

The2ndAmendment said:


> francoHFW said:
> 
> 
> > A) Of course I was. Megarich Pubs are shills for ridiculously expensive and cruel Big Health, and obviously scared the hell out of his boss....
> ...


you should take your own advice.


----------



## daws101 (May 11, 2015)

thanatos144 said:


> Dot Com said:
> 
> 
> > The2ndAmendment said:
> ...


thanks capt retard.


----------



## tigerred59 (May 11, 2015)

The2ndAmendment said:


> I just received a letter from my job stating that no one will be working more than 30 hours a week.
> 
> I normally worked 48-52 hours per week generating 10 hours of regular play, and 8-12 hours of overtime time. Each hour I work averages an ADDITIONAL $ 11.25 in tips.
> 
> ...




*There are over 300 million people in this country,  of which 1/3 has benefited from ACA. Most, including myself have had their hours shortened, unpaid days off, all to benefit a nation where corporate profits soar and lack of consumer money have forced these types of adjustments......now who do I blame? It sure as hell ain't Obama...you moron!!!*


----------



## tigerred59 (May 11, 2015)

chikenwing said:


> Your current company is just as much to blame as ObamaCare.
> 
> How is that,this should be a good one.



*I work for the largest financial institution in the country.....they make billions....my hours have been cut, there are weeks when I go home with less than 20 hours. We're forced to take unpaid days off and still these greedy bastards want more.....we have the worst insurance in the country, with deductibles as high as 5 grand and do I for one second sit back and blame Obama???? I blame a nation that worships corporations and thier 401K's their pensions, their profit sharing investments and their love for cheap labor over seas, I blame hospitals that build and build and bill you for a 2 second visit that costs 600 bucks....but it sure as hell ain't Obama and ACA*


----------



## dblack (May 11, 2015)

Dot Com said:


> So you people admit that the status quo (before Obamneycare) was unsustainable [rates were rising at an alarming rate]. Finally.



This "people" always has.


----------



## NoTeaPartyPleez (May 11, 2015)

tigerred59 said:


> chikenwing said:
> 
> 
> > Your current company is just as much to blame as ObamaCare.
> ...




*Screwing people out of a 40 hour week started a long time ago.   The big push to downsize jobs came in 2008 after Bush crashed our economy.
The pitiful O/P is a whining idiot.*


----------



## RKMBrown (May 11, 2015)

NoTeaPartyPleez said:


> tigerred59 said:
> 
> 
> > chikenwing said:
> ...


You're a piece of shit.  Why don't you get a job?


----------



## tigerred59 (May 11, 2015)

NoTeaPartyPleez said:


> tigerred59 said:
> 
> 
> > chikenwing said:
> ...



*Bravo for your comment.....the banks took our economy and shitted all over it and not one single fucker paid the price for doing it. Corporate america shits on us decade after decade with cheap chinese labor and still we say nothing about it. But let a motherfucker's hours get cut and suddenly its ACA and Obama's fuckin fault???? My job is the poster child for fuckin over people and this was being done years before Obama came on the scene. They cut half our work force the start of the new decade and shipped those jobs to India. Over 900 people lost their jobs just like that and they're still shipping our customer service jobs there to this day.*


----------



## tigerred59 (May 11, 2015)

RKMBrown said:


> NoTeaPartyPleez said:
> 
> 
> > tigerred59 said:
> ...



*He does have a job, shittin on your ignorance you stupid red fuck!!*


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## RKMBrown (May 11, 2015)

tigerred59 said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > NoTeaPartyPleez said:
> ...


Tissue?


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## Jarlaxle (May 16, 2015)

Vandalshandle said:


> Anathema said:
> 
> 
> > Ah. So nice to know that'll never be me. My UNION CONTACT requires a 40 hour work week. It requires health care be provided at a reasonable cost. It does not allow the Company to force me to work OT except in extreme circumstances.
> ...



So did Polaroid!


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## Dante (May 31, 2015)

ywn...


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## tigerred59 (May 31, 2015)

RKMBrown said:


> tigerred59 said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



*I don't need a tissue, because I'm not here whining about ACA, give the tissue that ass wipe that started this thread!!*


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## RKMBrown (May 31, 2015)

tigerred59 said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > tigerred59 said:
> ...


You're confused..  For the people crying about us not being willing to graciously let the leftists screw us over... here's your tissue.  For the people stealing our income against our will... lining your pockets with food money taken from my children's mouths...  I just wish you had the balls to do it face to face vs. hiding behind the IRS maggots to do your dirty work.


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## hipeter924 (May 31, 2015)

g5000 said:


> Your current company is just as much to blame as ObamaCare.
> 
> You need a full-time job which offers health insurance.  Therefore, you will need to complete your education so you can get such a job.
> 
> ...


As I have heard from others, if the government messes around with your life, you shouldn't worry taking advantage of the things it does give you.


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## tigerred59 (May 31, 2015)

RKMBrown said:


> tigerred59 said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...




Boo fuckin hoo, you stupid person......stealing what fuckin money? Obama signs things into law, congress makes those laws.....I am so fuckin sick and tired of you conservative ass ho's always always crying about what the fucking black man does.....200 fuckin years of white motherf***** fuckin you over and now because he's a black man, all you simps ever do is fukin whine all the time.....do me a favor, attend a damned Klan rally so you can feel better otherwise shut the eff up!!


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## airplanemechanic (May 31, 2015)

Wow, you're very racist.


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## RKMBrown (May 31, 2015)

tigerred59 said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > tigerred59 said:
> ...


What does Obamacare and the subsequent theft of my income have to do with Obama being black?  I just assumed it was because he's a piece of shit.  Are you saying you think he's a piece of shit cause he's black?


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## bodecea (May 31, 2015)

Vandalshandle said:


> As I recall, when Medicare kicked in in 1966, it took about 6 years before the Right finally stopped claiming that America had been taken over by the communists.
> 
> {sigh}


And then.....they took credit for it.


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## bodecea (May 31, 2015)

The2ndAmendment said:


> I just received a letter from my job stating that no one will be working more than 30 hours a week.
> 
> I normally worked 48-52 hours per week generating 10 hours of regular play, and 8-12 hours of overtime time. Each hour I work averages an ADDITIONAL $ 11.25 in tips.
> 
> ...


I'm doing just fine two years later.


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## Jarlaxle (Jun 1, 2015)

Translation: "I've got mine, so fuck you if you don't."

No wonder you claim that conservatives have that mentality!  Projection is very common.


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## tigerred59 (Jun 1, 2015)

RKMBrown said:


> tigerred59 said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



*One more time you moron, time and time again you whiney simps come to these boards and whine about Obama doing something to your damned paychecks.....always Obama. Never the congress, never the senate, your state government, just the fuckin black guy Obama. AND IF ANYBODY'S A PIECE OF SHIT, PAL....ITS THE WHITE MOTHERF**** ON THE HILL THAT TRICK THE SIMPLE MINDED LIKE YOURSELF INTO BELIEVING THEY HAVE YOUR BEST INTEREST AT HEART. GO AND GROW UP SOMEWHERE, YOUR TOO PATHETIC TO POST HERE ANY LONGER.*


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## tigerred59 (Jun 1, 2015)

airplanemechanic said:


> Wow, you're very racist.



*I'm definately in good company here.*


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## airplanemechanic (Jun 1, 2015)

Yea there are a few other liberals here.


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## Dot Com (Jun 1, 2015)

I see pissant OP is still above ground and yammering about fire sticks as well.


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## RKMBrown (Jun 2, 2015)

tigerred59 said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > tigerred59 said:
> ...


I see so you agree Obama is a piece of shit... and you think it's because of skin color... and you think all of congress is a piece of shit because of their skin color... and you think I'm pathetic because I did not rant on congress in a discussion about Obama being a piece of shit.  Are you trying to say Obama's only a piece of shit because of the color of some guy on a hill?  

Are you actually saying Obamacare is not Obama's doing?  Are you actually trying to deflect blame for this piece of shit to some white guy on a hill?  

You clearly don't know me.  I'm no fan of either the republican nor the democrat party.


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