# When it hits the fan.   A survival discussion.



## WinterBorn (Mar 13, 2015)

In numerous threads in this firearms forum, we have talked about survival weapons.  I thought I'd start a thread about survival in real terms.

First of all, I think we need to define the situation, in terms of what we are facing.  I'll just use 3 arbitrary terms to define the 3 basic situations that seem most likely.

*Level 1*:  Short term disaster - This is what I think of as a widespread post-Katrina type situation.  Complete disaster, but recovery measured in months.

*Level 2*:  Medium term disaster - This is a societal collapse but without the destruction of some of the infrastructure.   Far worse than a Level 1, but it is still about surviving until things get put back together.  An invasion, revolution or even a plague could cause this.  Recovery in a couple of years.

*Level 3*:  TEOTWAWKI (*T*he *E*nd *O*f *T*he *W*orld *A*s *W*e *K*now *I*t) - This could be a nuclear war, a major solar storm, or just some sort of apocalypse.  This type event will see no recovery for at least a couple of generations.

Anyone have plans or plans for plans?  Or ideas?


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## Asclepias (Mar 13, 2015)

I'm only prepared for Level 1.  Anything after that would be considered a fluid situation which I would address as needed.


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## Swagger (Mar 13, 2015)

I think a better means of gauging how severe a disaster, event or change(s) by design could affect life/society as we know it is how fast and effectively the standing government could enforce the law. If it was obvious that police and army infrastructure remained largely intact, and the means they'd usually require to react were visible then it would give opportunists pause for thought. However, if it was clear that the law enforcement was powerless - or they abandoned their posts because the government couldn't pay them - then things would be a lot more serious.

Additionally, having read a lot of material on the whole What If and SHTF situations (it's genuinely interesting stuff), I've noticed that a lot of it comes from either: anarchists, religious nutjobs and people who wish to capitalise on the ensuing choas/power vacuum. Rarely is there any discussion on how we could start working on getting things back to normal from the outset.


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## WinterBorn (Mar 13, 2015)

Swagger said:


> I think a better means of gauging how severe a disaster, event or change(s) by design could affect life/society as we know it is how fast and effectively the standing government could enforce the law. If it was obvious that police and army infrastructure remained largely intact, and the means they'd usually require to react were visible then it would give opportunists pause for thought. However, if it was clear that the law enforcement was powerless - or they abandoned their posts because the government couldn't pay them - then things would be a lot more serious.
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> Additionally, having read a lot of material on the whole What If and SHTF situations (it's genuinely interesting stuff), I've noticed that a lot of it comes from either: anarchists, religious nutjobs and people who wish to capitalise on the ensuing choas/power vacuum. Rarely is there any discussion on how we could start working on getting things back to normal from the outset.



That is actually what I based my 3 levels on.   How long it takes to recover is basic to how long you have to fend for yourself or how long your group has to fend for itself.


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## koshergrl (Mar 13, 2015)

Swagger said:


> I think a better means of gauging how severe a disaster, event or change(s) by design could affect life/society as we know it is how fast and effectively the standing government could enforce the law. If it was obvious that police and army infrastructure remained largely intact, and the means they'd usually require to react were visible then it would give opportunists pause for thought. However, if it was clear that the law enforcement was powerless - or they abandoned their posts because the government couldn't pay them - then things would be a lot more serious.
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> Additionally, having read a lot of material on the whole What If and SHTF situations (it's genuinely interesting stuff), I've noticed that a lot of it comes from either: anarchists, religious nutjobs and people who wish to capitalise on the ensuing choas/power vacuum. Rarely is there any discussion on how we could start working on getting things back to normal from the outset.


 
If you can't survive for a month without water, shelter, food, power or medical attention, it's not going to matter, you'll be dead.


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## Swagger (Mar 13, 2015)

koshergrl said:


> Swagger said:
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Yeah, but a complete financial collapse won't poison the water or significantly reduce or spoil wildlife stocks that could sustain us like a natural disaster or nuclear strike could.


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## WinterBorn (Mar 13, 2015)

Asclepias said:


> I'm only prepared for Level 1.  Anything after that would be considered a fluid situation which I would address as needed.



Actually, a longer term disaster requires more planning and preparation, obviously.   And steps need to be taken rather quickly.

For example, food for you and your family.  If you don't eat you don't survive.   Having enough canned goods to last a month or so is not too difficult.  But beyond that, especially if it lasts a year or two, will take planning.

It will also depend on when the SHTF.  If you have the means for a garden, and things blow up in march, you only have to feed yourself for 3 or 4 months, until you have some fresh produce.  However, if the SHTF happens in September, you have 8 or 10 months before your garden is feeding anyone (depending on where you live).    And you have to make sure the plants survive pests, animals, and other people who don't like the idea of starving.

For Level 3, you have to be prepared to basically replace everything you need over the long haul.   Yes, our ancestors made their own clothes.  But I haven't seen a loom or method for making cloth outside of historical displays.   I love my Carhartts, but even they will wear out.

Level 1 can be done on your own or your own family.  Level 2 you might make it, but would be far better off in a group.  Level 3 means a community or death.


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## WinterBorn (Mar 13, 2015)

Swagger said:


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But that financial collapse will stop fuel and food transport.  Which means the majority of people will be starving in a matter of weeks (at best).   Grocery stores will be empty in a couple of days.  Then you have a huge migration of starving people out into the rural areas in search of food.  Game animals will be scarcer and farms will be overrun in short order, unless you have a means to protect them.   And it won't be a matter of show, but of the willingness and the means to kill hundreds (if not thousands) of people.


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## Swagger (Mar 13, 2015)

WinterBorn said:


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I don't disagree that a financial collapse would have a serious knock-on effect that would play-out as you've described. The point I was trying to make - perhaps not very clearly - is that some 'disasters' or events have much more serious consequences, like the removal/spoiling of things we need to survive, like food and water. A nuclear strike would have a much greater/lasting effect on those resources than a financial collapse would.


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## Asclepias (Mar 13, 2015)

WinterBorn said:


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Planning further out than a level 1 event takes coordination with others I may not be able to count on in the event things get worse. I'm a survivor and confident in my abilities to adjust to any situation. I can live off the land if need be no matter where I am at. If death is unavoidable then I can accept that as well.


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## koshergrl (Mar 13, 2015)

Swagger said:


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You certainly hope so. You realize the chances of a "complete financial collapse" is a lot less likely than a huge earthquake or solar flare or whatever, right?


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## koshergrl (Mar 13, 2015)

Asclepias said:


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Really.

How many years have you spent living off the land?


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## koshergrl (Mar 13, 2015)

A while back I was involved in a discussion where it became obvious that there are a lot of city and suburbia dwellers who think that because deer cruise through their gated communities once in a while, they were set once the supply trucks stopped rolling and the water stopped flowing. There were other city morons who thought they'd be able to trek cross country and invade the countryside, and get along just fine without being picked off by the rural locals.

So, so clueless.


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## WinterBorn (Mar 13, 2015)

Living off the land sounds like a great plan.  Until you are starving and the land is being stripped by 200 others who had the same plan.

The problem with all these people who have a vague plan is that it won't work in reality.


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## Missourian (Mar 13, 2015)

I posted mine in the other thread...I reckon I'll just quote it here,  and expound a little.



Missourian said:


> We've (the wife and I)  decided that we are going to hunker down here in our rural town.  It's quiet here,  lots of hunters and good ol' boys.  And there is just too much to move or duplicate purchase.
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> Ever read Ferfal Aguirre's blog?
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Missourian said:


> What are we buying for SHTF?  Things like crocks for fermentation,  mason jars,  hand woodworking tools,  nails and screws in jars from auctions and yard sales,  barrels that iodine came in from livestock farmers.
> 
> The wood stove in my shop has the pot holes for cooking.  We just bought a wood stove for the house,  before EPA regulations kicked in.  I'm learning how to work leather.  All these things save us money in the long run...we eat better from the garden,  and there are no preservatives,  dyes and other junk in the food we can.  And I love to make things myself...it's fun and satisfying.



IMO,  you are going to need the infrastructure of a town.  Things like the library,  hospital,  police and fire departments,  local government...they are going to be crucial.

To have any kind of quality of life,  resources are going to need to be pooled.  No person is an island.  Without power,  there will be no running water.  And even if you have a river or stream in your town,  every idiot up stream is going to be shitting in it.  And later diverting it.  That means rain water and wells,  or boil every thing  which will use up the limit resources close to your town.  So at least a portion of your citizens will need to garden and raise livestock,  some are going to have to hunt and scavenge,  some are going to need to dig wells and contained latrines,  some are going to have to cut wood,  some will need to tend charcoal mounds (to use for water purification and blacksmithing)...and all that requires co-ordination.

And you know,  some idiot,  with thousands of fires burning in the woods to cook and boil water is going to burn the forest down.  It's almost a certainty.  so you need a team to clear fire breaks too.

So,  what should you be looking for today?  A midsized rural town,  preferably with a river flowing through it or a river or large lake close by,  with police and fire department,  library,  hospital,  surrounded by a mix of agriculture and forest,  a citizenry of hard working,  mostly self sufficient folks,  far enough from a major metropolitan that you won't be overrun by a horde of refugees.

Aside from the aforementioned supplies,  add SALT...and lots of it.  Cheap and available today...worth it's weight in gold when you can no longer get it shipped to you by truck.  Cast iron dutch ovens and skillets.  Fire starters.  And knowledge.  

Crap,  that was long winded...and that's just page one of the introduction to the book I would have to write...


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## Asclepias (Mar 13, 2015)

koshergrl said:


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Enough to be comfortable with it.


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## WinterBorn (Mar 13, 2015)

koshergrl said:


> A while back I was involved in a discussion where it became obvious that there are a lot of city and suburbia dwellers who think that because deer cruise through their gated communities once in a while, they were set once the supply trucks stopped rolling and the water stopped flowing. There were other city morons who thought they'd be able to trek cross country and invade the countryside, and get along just fine without being picked off by the rural locals.
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> So, so clueless.



Initially there will be the deer in the suburbs and will feed a few people for a week or two.  But the deer are far more adaptable than the majority of the people.  They'll be gone (or far harder to hunt) almost immediately.

Having recipes for rat would be a good idea.


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## koshergrl (Mar 13, 2015)

Missourian said:


> I posted mine in the other thread...I reckon I'll just quote it here,  and expound a little.
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As soon as the world ends I am packing it up and starting towards you. I've seen your barbecue.

Hahaha not really.

I was raised by a hillbilly mother in the area where I live. I actually fantasize about the day when the infrastructure collapses and the old people and transplants from California either go away or die.


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## WinterBorn (Mar 13, 2015)

Missourian said:


> I posted mine in the other thread...I reckon I'll just quote it here,  and expound a little.
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Salt is one of the items you rarely see mentioned in a long term survival plan.  But you are right, it will be critical for several reasons.  And as a barter item, it will be invaluable.


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## Asclepias (Mar 13, 2015)

WinterBorn said:


> Living off the land sounds like a great plan.  Until you are starving and the land is being stripped by 200 others who had the same plan.
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> The problem with all these people who have a vague plan is that it won't work in reality.


My plan is not vague. I am well versed in what plants are edible, how to grow them, how to find them in the wild. I am also well versed on how to trap animals for food, their habits and how to preserve meat.. My grandfather taught me these things as they lived completely off the land for years..


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## WinterBorn (Mar 13, 2015)

Asclepias said:


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If you have the skills you are going to have a leg up on most people.  

How about medicinal herbs?  Or food storage?


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## koshergrl (Mar 13, 2015)

WinterBorn said:


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And dog.

Seriously, I doubt the ability of most city folk to last very long. There's not just their deplorable lack of common sense and ability...they do incredibly stupid things. Like build fires with treated wood, the smoke of which can be absolutely fatal, and definitely will shorten your life if you're cooking over it. They don't know the basics of food storage, handling, they don't even fully grasp the nature of the importance of water and how to obtain and manage it.


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## koshergrl (Mar 13, 2015)

WinterBorn said:


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Schlep doesn't know how to do any of those things. When he says "well versed" he means he has watched some survival shows.


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## pismoe (Mar 13, 2015)

good discussion , when talking 'teotowaki' [level 3] I think that's a simple air burst of a nuke over the USA . Whats it called as I forget but its been in the news these last 10 years or so .  But that blast is said to be able to bring the USA and everything to a halt .   Military and police 'Might' be disabled because even if their transports are shielded they won't be able to get gas at pumps other than police and military pumps that are shielded .  Level 3 would really be difficult especially in where roads and freeways would be clogged as peoples cars and trucks run out of gas , flat tires , breakdowns during an imagined mass exodus from big cities .   And then they'd just run outa gas , breakdown on the freeways .   --------   Yep , electro magnetic pulse !!


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## Asclepias (Mar 13, 2015)

WinterBorn said:


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There are a lot of medicinal herbs growing wild or as ornamental plants in my locale. Most are diuretics but they do the job. Fortunately no one in my family needs any type of medication. Food storage is an issue where I live so it will have to be lots of jerky in the event there is no refrigeration or electricity.


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## WinterBorn (Mar 13, 2015)

Asclepias said:


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Having some sort of means of fighting topical infections will increase the likelihood of survival.   In a Level 3 situation, a cut can turn into gangrene pretty quickly.  If you are alone, a broken leg is almost a death sentence.


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## Asclepias (Mar 13, 2015)

pismoe said:


> good discussion , when talking 'teotowaki' [level 3] I think that's a simple air burst of a nuke over the USA . Whats it called as I forget but its been in the news these last 10 years or so .  But that blast is said to be able to bring the USA and everything to a halt .   Military and police 'Might' be disabled because even if their transports are shielded they won't be able to get gas at pumps other than police and military pumps that are shielded .  Level 3 would really be difficult especially in where roads and freeways would be clogged as peoples cars and trucks run out of gas , flat tires , breakdowns during an imagined mass exodus from big cities .   And then they'd just run outa gas , breakdown on the freeways .   --------   Yep , electro magnetic pulse !!


There is no way I'm using the roads. Find a railroad track to navigate if necessary. I'm familiar with all the hiking trails in my area that actually go from city to city in the event I need to move. People turn back into animals very quickly.


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## Asclepias (Mar 13, 2015)

WinterBorn said:


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My wife is a RN. We have enough stuff to take care of a small army. I have a little medical training as well from the military and later when I almost became a nurse.


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## pismoe (Mar 13, 2015)

random thought , there is no never ending supply or stock of wildlife ready to be taken for survival .  Another though , PET dogs while they can be eaten they won't last forever and stray dogs get mad when starving and form into packs .   Rip a man to shreds in a couple minutes .   Lot people in the big city have pet dogs that will probably become killers .


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## koshergrl (Mar 13, 2015)

Asclepias said:


> pismoe said:
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> > good discussion , when talking 'teotowaki' [level 3] I think that's a simple air burst of a nuke over the USA . Whats it called as I forget but its been in the news these last 10 years or so .  But that blast is said to be able to bring the USA and everything to a halt .   Military and police 'Might' be disabled because even if their transports are shielded they won't be able to get gas at pumps other than police and military pumps that are shielded .  Level 3 would really be difficult especially in where roads and freeways would be clogged as peoples cars and trucks run out of gas , flat tires , breakdowns during an imagined mass exodus from big cities .   And then they'd just run outa gas , breakdown on the freeways .   --------   Yep , electro magnetic pulse !!
> ...


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## Asclepias (Mar 13, 2015)

pismoe said:


> random thought , there is no never ending supply or stock of wildlife ready to be taken for survival .  Another though , PET dogs while they can be eaten they won't last forever and stray dogs get mad when starving and form into packs .   Rip a man to shreds in a couple minutes .   Lot people in the big city have pet dogs that will probably become killers .


As long as rodents exist there will always be wildlife. Also bugs are a good source of protein. Dogs are not too bright and leave plenty of signs they are around even after going feral. The problem with dogs is they will have no natural fear of man like wild animals do.


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## WinterBorn (Mar 13, 2015)

Asclepias said:


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Feral dogs would be a serious hazard fairly quickly.   And knowing how a pack operates would mean the difference between surviving and feeding the pack, unless you are well armed.


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## pismoe (Mar 13, 2015)

and cities discourage guns [Chicago , new York] so the dogs may do a lot of damage in my opinion .  And yeah 'acseipias' , stay off the roads , sure , probably best to stay in the apartment with you supplies and shotgun , big well fed and watered dog and wife , friend .  Railroad tracks , yep , but depending that railroadTrack and trails might become popular as a highway that bandits hang out at .  Water will be a big problem when the electric pumps stop working and then you have to figure out plumbling and waste management .  Course , you know your area so maybe your plan is a good one .


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## Asclepias (Mar 13, 2015)

WinterBorn said:


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I've had my run ins with feral packs while in Georgia at Ft Gordon. Dogs dont have the intelligence nor the determination of say a pack of wolves.  Wolves or bears would be my some of my biggest worries if they were around.  A bear would just simply take anything it wanted if you didnt have a weapon. Wolves would get you just by wearing you out.


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## koshergrl (Mar 13, 2015)

and reading this thread I am doubly convinced...

City dwellers are goners. Thank goodness, because that's where the vast majority of lunatic lefties live.


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## Missourian (Mar 13, 2015)

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I remember the '81 NYC Garbage Strike...two weeks and the trash piled in the street was taller than a man...couple that with raw sewage,  no running water and cooking fires.  The major cities will be rotting cesspools of disease interspersed by raging structure fires and burning garbage.


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## koshergrl (Mar 13, 2015)

Missourian said:


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Cripes these people die in their apartments when it gets hot outside.

They're clueless.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Mar 13, 2015)

koshergrl said:


> A while back I was involved in a discussion where it became obvious that there are a lot of city and suburbia dwellers who think that because deer cruise through their gated communities once in a while, they were set once the supply trucks stopped rolling and the water stopped flowing. There were other city morons who thought they'd be able to trek cross country and invade the countryside, and get along just fine without being picked off by the rural locals.
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> So, so clueless.



 Yep..city folks would be the first to die. Not enough resources and to many people. Couple that with disease and dysentery from drinking contaminated water and you'd have hell on earth in short order.
The suburbs would be marginally better with swimming pools for water and the room to grow a garden but the starving city folks would become a problem real fast.
    Moving out to the boonies would be incredibly dangerous with the locals protecting their property but they would eventually be over run by the masses.
    You'd really need a large group for protection but then you'd have the problem of feeding that many people.
   The best bet IMHO would be to hole up somewhere until after the first die off but of course you'd have to be prepared for at least six months for that to happen.


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## Missourian (Mar 13, 2015)

koshergrl said:


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Solar flare would be exceptionally bad.  A broken microwave oven is a perfect Faraday cage,  prebuilt,  that everyone that has one is trying to get rid of for free...fwiw.  Put one in your shed with an outdated (but operational) laptop or tablet and charger,  solar calculator,  spare susceptible car parts etc.


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## pismoe (Mar 13, 2015)

yep , the gun is a big deal , small carbine and a handgun , I'd say that 9mm would be a good choice .  Meant for self defense , think that Marlin and Beretta made the carbine , maybe even the lowly but supposedly supremely reliable 'hi point' .   Then a 9mm Glock or two , 2 model 19's might be a good choice .   Not for fighting a war , just self defense.  If staying in the apartment or house then I'd add a 12 gauge short barreled pump with extended magazine .   Probably an 870 or Mossberg but I want a walnut  stocked Ithaca pump with extended mag .


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## koshergrl (Mar 13, 2015)

HereWeGoAgain said:


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Naw, country folks can hold their own against the masses, don't worry.


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## koshergrl (Mar 13, 2015)

Missourian said:


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Ha, the thing is..I live just fine without any of those things.


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## rightwinger (Mar 13, 2015)

WinterBorn said:


> In numerous threads in this firearms forum, we have talked about survival weapons.  I thought I'd start a thread about survival in real terms.
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> First of all, I think we need to define the situation, in terms of what we are facing.  I'll just use 3 arbitrary terms to define the 3 basic situations that seem most likely.
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I have been stocking up on cheap beer

When the Zombie Apocolypse  comes, it will be worth its weight in gold

You can't drink gold


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## HereWeGoAgain (Mar 13, 2015)

Asclepias said:


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  Once people started shooting and eating em they would.
One of the better survival tools for food would be a shitload of rat traps.
Good for squirrels and rats.
   And of course the old steel jaw traps and fish traps.
That frees you up to take care of other pressing needs since you're not spending all your time hunting.


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## pismoe (Mar 13, 2015)

Ithaca gun ---  The Ithaca Model 37 Defense  ---


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## Asclepias (Mar 13, 2015)

Missourian said:


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Microwaves are not the best Faraday cages. I doubt it would completely protect your devices. I would test first by placing a call on your cell phone then putting it in the microwave to see if the signal cuts off when you close the door.  I believe the door of a lot of microwaves is a weak point.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Mar 13, 2015)

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    I dont think they would. It would be a simple matter of surrounding the farm house and waiting em out or burning em out.
  The only way to survive the initial die off would be to stay hidden.
But again that would take preparation before hand.


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## Missourian (Mar 13, 2015)

rightwinger said:


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After reading your posts I feel compelled to warn you,  I've calculated that at your present rate of consumption,  you will have -276 cases on Z-day.


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## koshergrl (Mar 13, 2015)

HereWeGoAgain said:


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I am not eating squirrel or rat. Screw that.

I'll eat venison, fish, elk. Cow if I can find it. And I can find it, lol.


HereWeGoAgain said:


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Yeah you don't live in the country, do you?


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## Missourian (Mar 13, 2015)

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Good idea...or a battery power radio.    Going to give that a try.  Better to see for yourself than trust what you read.


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## HenryBHough (Mar 13, 2015)

Any kind of preparation is madness.

The world has too many people; ask any liberal worshiper at The Algore First Universal Church of Global Warming. Preparation of any kind enhances one's chances of survival; a disservice to all those who had survived naturally and who will need all the resources to continue that survival.


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## Missourian (Mar 13, 2015)

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Rat I don't know,  but you are so missing out not eating squirrel meat.  Squirrel season ended Feb 15th,  and my freezer is already almost squirrel bare.  Had to make room for goose anyway,  but I'll sure miss it until May.


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## koshergrl (Mar 13, 2015)

Missourian said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> > HereWeGoAgain said:
> ...


 
I could probably handle squirrel. We don't have big ones here. We have lots of other stuff though..including lots and lots of waterfowl.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Mar 13, 2015)

koshergrl said:


> HereWeGoAgain said:
> 
> 
> > Asclepias said:
> ...



 I lived in a county that only had 2600 people and the nearest grocery store was fifty miles away. So yeah I lived way out in the boonies.
  If it was a solar flare or an EMP you would have a better chance since most vehicles wouldnt run and the majority would die off before they could get to you.

   And like I said,if they cant leave the house without getting shot eventually they'd starve or die of thirst while the siege layers would be free to hunt,trap and fish.
   You'd really need to stay hidden. Which is why you'd be better off with the rat traps and the like. Firing weapons is a dead giveaway.


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## eots (Mar 13, 2015)

Asclepias said:


> I'm only prepared for Level 1.  Anything after that would be considered a fluid situation which I would address as needed.





WinterBorn said:


> In numerous threads in this firearms forum, we have talked about survival weapons.  I thought I'd start a thread about survival in real terms.
> 
> First of all, I think we need to define the situation, in terms of what we are facing.  I'll just use 3 arbitrary terms to define the 3 basic situations that seem most likely.
> 
> ...


Duck and cover


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## pismoe (Mar 13, 2015)

death of one sort or another is just a gas tank of fuel away 'herewego' .   Or a breakdown . I can imagine the mayhem on the freeways from the hordes thinking that they will escape L.A. or any bigcity


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## HereWeGoAgain (Mar 13, 2015)

pismoe said:


> death of one sort or another is just a gas tank of fuel away 'herewego' .   Or a breakdown . I can imagine the mayhem on the freeways from the hordes thinking that they will escape L.A. or any bigcity



  Yep..When hurricane Rita hit Houston every freeway out of town was gridlocked for days with many having to ride out the storm in their cars....that would be a cake walk compared to a SHTF situation. Thats why I believe holing up until the first die off is over would be your best bet if possible. This was the biggest evacuation in US history.


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## Treeshepherd (Mar 13, 2015)

WinterBorn said:


> In numerous threads in this firearms forum, we have talked about survival weapons.  I thought I'd start a thread about survival in real terms.
> 
> First of all, I think we need to define the situation, in terms of what we are facing.  I'll just use 3 arbitrary terms to define the 3 basic situations that seem most likely.
> 
> ...



There are two basic schools of Preppers, with inevitable overlap. 

The first is the compound strategy. Build a defensible compound with lots of supplies, weapons and ammo. 

The second one is the survivalist. I fit neatly into that category. I don't even own a gun. I have a wrist rocket style slingshot. Pick up ammo as you go. Stay in good physical condition. Know your territory; where to find water, where to fish, where to trap quail, where all the fruit trees are, what wild plants are edible; etc.. I also like to work on training myself to walk in the dark.

Last September I walked over 400 miles from Santa Cruz County to Humboldt County. I slept in a hammock for 23 straight nights. Used a flashlight probably twice the whole time. Guerrilla camped. It was more of a spiritual pilgrimage than anything, but good training in case the human race needs an insurance policy someday.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Mar 13, 2015)

Treeshepherd said:


> WinterBorn said:
> 
> 
> > In numerous threads in this firearms forum, we have talked about survival weapons.  I thought I'd start a thread about survival in real terms.
> ...



 You'd still need a firearm for protection.
So what kind of hammock do you have? I love my Warbonnet blackbird with the super fly. The worst thing about a hammock is you freeze your balls off without proper insulation,but they are cooler in the summer than a tent.


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## Treeshepherd (Mar 13, 2015)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> You'd still need a firearm for protection.
> So what kind of hammock do you have? I love my Warbonnet blackbird with the super fly. The worst thing about a hammock is you freeze your balls off without proper insulation,but they are cooler in the summer than a tent.



My Odyssey US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

I've got a single Eagles Nest Outfitters backpacking hammock. It scrunches down to the size of a burrito supreme. On my trip, my Thermarest got slashed while I was climbing over a barbed wire fence. But, I found that the Thermarest fit better inside my hammock when it was deflated. I wore a knit cap and used my jacket for a pillow. Anyway, it doesn't get very cold in Northern California. 


Guns make noise, are heavy, ammo is heavy, and guns get wet. If I bought a gun it would be a simple, collapsible survival rifle.  A wrist rocket is silent and will put a dent in the skull of someone on your tail.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Mar 13, 2015)

Treeshepherd said:


> HereWeGoAgain said:
> 
> 
> > You'd still need a firearm for protection.
> ...



  You'd still need a firearm for self defense.The wrist rocket wouldn't do you much good when your adversary has a rifle or pistol.
  And it'd be a shame to see a nice fat rabbit out of range of that wrist rocket when  you're starving.
   Going it alone would be easier as far as feeding yourself and staying hidden for sure. Having a family with small children would be a son of a bitch.


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## koshergrl (Mar 13, 2015)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> > HereWeGoAgain said:
> ...





HereWeGoAgain said:


> Treeshepherd said:
> 
> 
> > HereWeGoAgain said:
> ...


 
But it can be done.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Mar 13, 2015)

koshergrl said:


> HereWeGoAgain said:
> 
> 
> > koshergrl said:
> ...



 Which part? The family or the wrist rocket?
The worst part of having a family would be protecting them which you couldnt really do without a firearm. And hunting in any form would be difficult at best with a family of four tagging along and making a racket. And you wouldnt want to leave em alone while you were hunting unless the wife was armed.


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## Treeshepherd (Mar 13, 2015)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> You'd still need a firearm for self defense.



The problem with guns is that I'm never going to have more guns than you gun nuts  . Better to stay unseen and unheard. 

You can make a box trap for rabbits.


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## koshergrl (Mar 13, 2015)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> > HereWeGoAgain said:
> ...


 
The family..I'm speaking in terms of single parents with children. Two parents with children can easily do this...children can work and shoot as well as adults. And they can be taught. Indians did it, and some of them still do.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Mar 13, 2015)

Treeshepherd said:


> HereWeGoAgain said:
> 
> 
> > You'd still need a firearm for self defense.
> ...



 You can only shoot one gun at a time. And I'd prefer wire snares. You can carry a crap load of em since they weigh next to nothing and they pack small. And of course two or three Yoyos would be indispensable.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Mar 13, 2015)

koshergrl said:


> HereWeGoAgain said:
> 
> 
> > koshergrl said:
> ...



 As long as you were armed it would be doable.
Wouldnt want to try it with just a wrist rocket for sure.


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## WinterBorn (Mar 13, 2015)

Asclepias said:


> WinterBorn said:
> 
> 
> > Asclepias said:
> ...



A feral dog pack will have the same organization as a wolf pack.   If you are alone, you will have one dog facing you and looking the most aggressive.  But the alpha


Missourian said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> > HereWeGoAgain said:
> ...



Squirrel is delicious!!!    Fried is great, but Squirrel & Dumplings is a dish fit for a king!    (King Bubba, but a king nonetheless)


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## Manonthestreet (Mar 13, 2015)

Those that are prepped, are your relatives or will you be feeding them too


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## koshergrl (Mar 13, 2015)

Fish trap:

How to Make a Primitive Funnel Fish Trap that keeps on giving.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Mar 13, 2015)

WinterBorn said:


> Asclepias said:
> 
> 
> > WinterBorn said:
> ...



  I've found that most who say they wouldnt eat squirrel have never tried it.
Some of the best eating in the woods. And they're plentiful,all you need to find is a creek or river bottom with hard woods and you're eaten good.


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## WinterBorn (Mar 13, 2015)

Treeshepherd said:


> HereWeGoAgain said:
> 
> 
> > You'd still need a firearm for self defense.
> ...



Having a greater number of guns is not going to help in most situations.  Being good with whatever gun you have is what will help you.


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## Manonthestreet (Mar 13, 2015)

smoked racoon......


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## WinterBorn (Mar 13, 2015)

For small game a good pellet gun would be great.   Lower cost, very quiet, and you could buy tens of thousands of pellets without breaking the bank.


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## pismoe (Mar 13, 2015)

I've seen sling shots that sling little arrows or bolts . I know nothing about them except seeing them .  Sling shot are fine , same as a bow and then knives of course . Maybe a .22 magnum for a revolver and then a little .22 mag Ruger carbine like a 10-22 .   .22 mag is pretty powerful , you can carry a lot of ammo , good for defense or small game .  And then in a thread a few months back a gent from Missouri was talking spears and the Atlatl .   Then again a suppressed 10-22 , a suppressed little Ruger or Browning pistol and an 8 or 10 shot .22 revolver [kit gun] for when and if the others break .  [just thinking]


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## koshergrl (Mar 13, 2015)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> WinterBorn said:
> 
> 
> > Asclepias said:
> ...


 
Yeah but it's not all about the taste, you know.

I saw a chipmunk with a warble in it once, it was one of the most disgusting things I've ever seen in my life..and in my family, we didn't eat rodent no matter how cute it was. We ate fish and game and birds....but squirrel wasn't considered game. Neither was rabbit, actually. It's just a family thing.


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## pismoe (Mar 13, 2015)

if you are hungry enough you'll eat that little chippy and its WARBLE , maybe even before you cook it .


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## Missourian (Mar 13, 2015)

WinterBorn said:


> For small game a good pellet gun would be great.   Lower cost, very quiet, and you could buy tens of thousands of pellets without breaking the bank.



Got a couple when 22LR disappeared.  A lot more accurate than one would think,  after you get the hang of holding them properly...at least as far as break action springers are concerned.


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## HenryBHough (Mar 13, 2015)

Seems like most plentiful game will be long pig.


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## 2aguy (Mar 13, 2015)

WinterBorn said:


> In numerous threads in this firearms forum, we have talked about survival weapons.  I thought I'd start a thread about survival in real terms.
> 
> First of all, I think we need to define the situation, in terms of what we are facing.  I'll just use 3 arbitrary terms to define the 3 basic situations that seem most likely.
> 
> ...




I have guns and the addresses of the anti gunners ....figure I'll just "borrow" everything I need from them........


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## Asclepias (Mar 13, 2015)

WinterBorn said:


> For small game a good pellet gun would be great.   Lower cost, very quiet, and you could buy tens of thousands of pellets without breaking the bank.


BB gun works like a charm. I have 4 that I shoot feral cats in the ass with.  Wont do anything to a cat but will kill a bird. With the amount of BB's I have my great grand children will be able use some.


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## pismoe (Mar 13, 2015)

I just bought both my 5 year old girl and boy Grandkids a Daisy RedRyder 75th anniversary edition BB rifles 'Ace' .   Its the same gun where Ralphie almost shoots his eye out .    I had an airgun , used to shot snow and mud .   Course I got my first .22 rifle at about 10 , semi auto .22 .


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## 9thIDdoc (Mar 13, 2015)

I live in a very small town (Census claims 200 people) in a rural area well away from population centers. It's an area where everybody knows everybody. We don't have a police force or even a constable although the county has a sheriff who comes through every once in awhile. We tend to handle our own problems and I can't think of a place I'd rather be in a SHTF situation. We are about a mile away from a major TVA lake and we have a river known for it's trout fishery that flows within a hundred yards or so of the house.There are several farms and we have a great deal of wild game and fishing opportunities.
I'm a bit of a gun nut. Actually I enjoy all sorts of weapons, reloading, casting bullets/balls, making archery equipment, and other quiet weapons. Snares are good for rabbits as are limb and trot lines and jug fishing for fish and turtles. Spears and arrows are good for frogs and fish.
Should the emergency go on for a long period there would also be feral farm animals like horses, cattle, goats, and we already have feral hogs.


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## WinterBorn (Mar 13, 2015)

9thIDdoc said:


> I live in a very small town (Census claims 200 people) in a rural area well away from population centers. It's an area where everybody knows everybody. We don't have a police force or even a constable although the county has a sheriff who comes through every once in awhile. We tend to handle our own problems and I can't think of a place I'd rather be in a SHTF situation. We are about a mile away from a major TVA lake and we have a river known for it's trout fishery that flows within a hundred yards or so of the house.There are several farms and we have a great deal of wild game and fishing opportunities.
> I'm a bit of a gun nut. Actually I enjoy all sorts of weapons, reloading, casting bullets/balls, making archery equipment, and other quiet weapons. Snares are good for rabbits as are limb and trot lines and jug fishing for fish and turtles. Spears and arrows are good for frogs and fish.
> Should the emergency go on for a long period there would also be feral farm animals like horses, cattle, goats, and we already have feral hogs.



Feral hogs are something to be considered as well.   While they are a source of tasty pork, they can also be seriously dangerous.   I'd hate to face a sow defending here piglets and only have a wrist rocket.


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## pismoe (Mar 13, 2015)

sounds like you have the perfect situation 'doc' , I'm similar but my town is bigger than yours but gun people are all over the place plus the place is agricultural on a big river and woods , lakes and streams are quite close . Main thing here is that the population is all pretty similar common sense types and not that far removed from an1880 practical way of doing things .   Main thing for me is that I am about 400 miles from the nearest big city !!


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## WinterBorn (Mar 13, 2015)

pismoe said:


> sounds like you have the perfect situation 'doc' , I'm similar but my town is bigger than yours but gun people are all over the place plus the place is agricultural on a big river and woods , lakes and streams are quite close . Main thing here is that the population is all pretty similar common sense types and not that far removed from an1880 practical way of doing things .   Main thing for me is that I am about 400 miles from the nearest big city !!



Where I will be heading isn't quite as far away from a major city.  I'll be 120 miles out of Atlanta in the boonies of east Alabama.  Atlanta doesn't worry me as much as being just under 50 miles from Anniston AL and Redstone Arsenal.   But its where I have land and friends.


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## Yarddog (Mar 13, 2015)

WinterBorn said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> > A while back I was involved in a discussion where it became obvious that there are a lot of city and suburbia dwellers who think that because deer cruise through their gated communities once in a while, they were set once the supply trucks stopped rolling and the water stopped flowing. There were other city morons who thought they'd be able to trek cross country and invade the countryside, and get along just fine without being picked off by the rural locals.
> ...




Having a plan in place already gives you a few steps ahead of the mob i guess.   It would be nice to have a sail boat, like many do here in SF area.   you could just sail up or down the coast. do some fishing.   even barter with fish i suppose.   50 miles out or so you can catch tuna out here


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## WinterBorn (Mar 14, 2015)

Yarddog said:


> WinterBorn said:
> 
> 
> > koshergrl said:
> ...



A sailboat would be pretty sweet.   Could lose weather forecasts.


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## 9thIDdoc (Mar 14, 2015)

"_Feral hogs are something to be considered as well. While they are a source of tasty pork, they can also be seriously dangerous. I'd hate to face a sow defending here piglets and only have a wrist rocket."_





Me too!


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## PredFan (Apr 5, 2015)

I'm definitely prepared for level 1, and I'd like to think I am also prepared for level 2, though I'm less sure of that.

I know that I'm prepared to take whatever means necessary to ensure that my family and I survive.


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## protectionist (Apr 7, 2015)

WinterBorn said:


> Anyone have plans or plans for plans?  Or ideas?


You don't know that lots of people have plans for survival ?  Where have you been ?  On the moon ?  There is a whole cult centered around it.  They're called preppies.  There are whole magazines devoted to it.  I recommend American SURVIVAL Guide.


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## WinterBorn (Apr 7, 2015)

protectionist said:


> WinterBorn said:
> 
> 
> > In numerous threads in this firearms forum, we have talked about survival weapons.  I thought I'd start a thread about survival in real terms.
> ...



Of course there are.   This post was to start a discussion about those plans.


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## HenryBHough (Apr 7, 2015)

Only two items needed.

1.  Enough prune juice to shit your brains out.

2. Enough toilet paper to work it out in comfort.


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## prison/con.net (May 21, 2015)

you left out the one that happens to thousands of US citizens every DAY. survival of an attack by the punk right there within 5 yds of you.  Until shtf, the longarm is irrelevant, cause you won't be able to access it (in time) you won't be able to run and get a pistol, either. Often, you won't have time enough to draw a CCW 'd pistol, either, unless you've practice doing so a lot.


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## prison/con.net (May 21, 2015)

if much of anything happens, a complete collapse will follow. the game, fish and known edible wild plants will be gone in a couple of months of any such collapse. nobody is going to be living off of the land, other than by being a cannibal. you can easily, however, live off of sprouts, potatoes grown in buckets, and similar stuff. Youtube is full of videos about that.  openly revealed garden plots will get you raided/sniped. so they're not feasible, for at least a year after shtf, and even then, good idea to have them in the middle of a thicket, on a hill top


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## pismoe (May 21, 2015)

there is one board member in particular that would disagree with prepping , course her job as a gov employee is to take care of the sheeple .     Gov has relief all figured out as far as she is concerned , probably some sort of 'fema' employee .


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## prison/con.net (May 21, 2015)

she's part of the problem, not the solution, then.


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## HereWeGoAgain (May 21, 2015)

prison/con.net said:


> she's part of the problem, not the solution, then.



  And she'd be one of the first to die.


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## WinterBorn (May 22, 2015)

protectionist said:


> WinterBorn said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone have plans or plans for plans?  Or ideas?
> ...



Yes, I know there are plenty of preppers.  That was not the question.

I was specifically asking people on this forum if they have any plans or plans for plans.


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## eots (May 22, 2015)

WinterBorn said:


> protectionist said:
> 
> 
> > WinterBorn said:
> ...


Yes the barbarian rebellion..we will be fueled by beer testosterone ,thc and red meat ,we will smash all high technology with big clubs ..shoot big guns..burn the whole shit house down and start again..then settle down with a female to breed  a nice cave ,some fire.. it will be glorious


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## prison/con.net (May 22, 2015)

my plan is to literally hide in a hole in the ground, for up to a year, while nearly everyone dies/is killed. With 90-99% of the risk gone, come out to pick up all the goodies that will be left laying around.


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## WinterBorn (May 22, 2015)

prison/con.net said:


> my plan is to literally hide in a hole in the ground, for up to a year, while nearly everyone dies/is killed. With 90-99% of the risk gone, come out to pick up all the goodies that will be left laying around.



And hope no one finds your hole?

I agree with the Bug-In idea.  I'm just not sure it will be as easy as you make it sound.


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## Syriusly (May 22, 2015)

prison/con.net said:


> my plan is to literally hide in a hole in the ground, for up to a year, while nearly everyone dies/is killed. With 90-99% of the risk gone, come out to pick up all the goodies that will be left laying around.



So that takes a years worth of food and water- and then hoping when you come out- that there will be food that somehow the ravenous hordes overlooked?

I am ready for situation 1- we have food and probably water. Presuming it happened somewhat locally, I have a place where my family could bug out too.

The other two situations- here is the thing- without a remote compound your chances of survival would be rather slim.

But the odds of either of the other two situations are very remote- so do you invest in a survival compound on the slight chance the end of the world comes?

I enjoy a good end of the world fiction as much as anyone- but in the books- the heroes are the ones who survive- by luck or by skill or by some combination thereof.


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## Ringel05 (May 22, 2015)

Given all these hypotheticals at this point in my life I'd probably last a couple of months at the very best.  The idea would be trying to find someone who would take care of the wife (she's 9 years younger than me) and send her on her way, from there I have to decide whether to let myself die slowly or quickly.


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## WinterBorn (May 23, 2015)

prison/con.net said:


> my plan is to literally hide in a hole in the ground, for up to a year, while nearly everyone dies/is killed. With 90-99% of the risk gone, come out to pick up all the goodies that will be left laying around.



A determined (or desperate group) is capable of rooting you out of a hole.   

I would suggest emergency exits and supplies stashed in at least two caches away from your hidey-hole.


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## westwall (May 28, 2015)

WinterBorn said:


> In numerous threads in this firearms forum, we have talked about survival weapons.  I thought I'd start a thread about survival in real terms.
> 
> First of all, I think we need to define the situation, in terms of what we are facing.  I'll just use 3 arbitrary terms to define the 3 basic situations that seem most likely.
> 
> ...









We have plans in place, with supplies, for all the way up to a Level 3.  We live in earthquake country and if you don't have a good earthquake kit you're a fool.


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## westwall (May 28, 2015)

WinterBorn said:


> prison/con.net said:
> 
> 
> > my plan is to literally hide in a hole in the ground, for up to a year, while nearly everyone dies/is killed. With 90-99% of the risk gone, come out to pick up all the goodies that will be left laying around.
> ...











I guess he's never heard of how one deals with moles.  What a silly, silly person.


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## WinterBorn (May 29, 2015)

westwall said:


> WinterBorn said:
> 
> 
> > prison/con.net said:
> ...



Yeah, part of my plan is to find people who thought hunkering down in a bunker was a good plan.  lol


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## HereWeGoAgain (May 29, 2015)

WinterBorn said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > WinterBorn said:
> ...




  Ya gotta love a stationary target....


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## westwall (May 29, 2015)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> WinterBorn said:
> 
> 
> > westwall said:
> ...







I believe Patton called them "monuments to the stupidity of man".


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## HereWeGoAgain (May 29, 2015)

westwall said:


> HereWeGoAgain said:
> 
> 
> > WinterBorn said:
> ...



   Nailed it.


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## WinterBorn (Jun 1, 2015)

Much of the discussion in this thread has been about weapons.  So let's go more in depth.

What do SHTF weapons need to be like?

I would think, without talking calibers or models, there are characteristics that can be addressed.

#1 - Durable & reliable.   There won't be any mail order parts or repair shops.  The guns in question need to work well in adverse conditions without being babied. 

What else?


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 7, 2015)

prison/con.net said:


> if much of anything happens, a complete collapse will follow. the game, fish and known edible wild plants will be gone in a couple of months of any such collapse. nobody is going to be living off of the land, other than by being a cannibal. you can easily, however, live off of sprouts, potatoes grown in buckets, and similar stuff. Youtube is full of videos about that.  openly revealed garden plots will get you raided/sniped. so they're not feasible, for at least a year after shtf, and even then, good idea to have them in the middle of a thicket, on a hill top



I think you've got it backwards. I tend to think that after a couple of months most everybody still alive will be living off the land. People who are not already skilled at living off the land are not likely to get the opportunity to learn. If you don't already have your vegetables nearly grown-and if you can't defend them-you won't be able to wait for them before starvation comes to call. Even more important than food is potable water. You can't grow a spring or clean stream in a bucket.


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## 9thIDdoc (Jun 7, 2015)

WinterBorn said:


> Much of the discussion in this thread has been about weapons.  So let's go more in depth.
> 
> What do SHTF weapons need to be like?
> 
> ...



 To  durable and reliable I would add versatile. Able to accomplish many tasks with the same weapon. 
I would have to think a good quality 12 Ga. double bl. shotgun might deserve serious consideration.


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## WinterBorn (Jun 8, 2015)

9thIDdoc said:


> WinterBorn said:
> 
> 
> > Much of the discussion in this thread has been about weapons.  So let's go more in depth.
> ...



Good point.  Versatility is a big factor.


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