# What James Madison (1793 Founder of Republican Party and author of Constitution)  said about how lib



## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 1, 2018)

Madison said faction is to freedom what air is to fire.

To prevent faction and civil war he gave us the greatest gift in human history, the Constitution. Immediately thereafter liberals  (called Federalists a the time)  appeared to represent a faction that wanted the Constitution to mean anything they wanted it to mean and thus the blueprint Madison gave us was undermined if not destroyed. Today, as a result,  we are perhaps more divided than ever before thanks to those who lack the wisdom to understand Madison's Constitution. What was Madison's greatest regret: he wasn't even more clear in his Constitution about the need to make the liberal faction instantly illegal whenever it appeared.


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## emilynghiem (Apr 1, 2018)

Dear EdwardBaiamonte 
what we could do to remedy the problem of secular liberalism beliefs from being imposed throught govt against the beliefs and consent of others,
is to recognize parties and political platforms as political beliefs and religions.
Thus agreeing to treat these equally as other religions with free exercise and expression,
which govt can neither prohibit nor establish.
Otherwise, to impose policies that favor one bias in beliefs while penalizing others
would constitute "discrimination by creed."

we can either be honest and transparent about this.
Or we can continue to rail and blame other parties
for pushing their beliefs while seeking to exclude them and impose others.

Both sides both parties should be compelled to come
to a mutual realization and agreement that this is unconstitutional.

to ensure equal protections of law to all people and parties of all beliefs,
we should agree to only establish where we AGREE to be public policy,
and to separate policies we disagree on for people or states to support on their own,
such as through party.  That way everyone enjoys equal free exercise of their
own beliefs and equal rights to choose which terms to fund such programs under.


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## Pogo (Apr 1, 2018)

Special Ed returns. For those who joined in the last year or so the reason we call him "Special Ed" will make itself readily apparent.

Now on to the refutation.  The Republican Party was founded in *1854 *in Ripon Wisconsin.  James Madison was already dead for eighteen years.  These are simple historical facts.  This is however a tiny bit closer to Special Ed's previous claim where he had Jefferson founding the Party --- 28 years after_ his_ own death.

"Liberals" were Madison himself and the rest of the crew that wrote the Constitution.  Liberalism was its driving force.  "Federalists" were a political party that organized after that was done.  Madison was a member (and founder) of the "Democratic-Republican" Party, which has no direct connection to _either _of the modern parties by those names.

As far as Madison's "regrets" I couldn't say what his "greatest" one was but he did call for a Constitutional Amendment that would have made the insane "winner take all" system the Electoral College uses, illegal.

I think the most hilariousest part of the OP is his trying to sell the idea that Madison wanted to make himself illegal.


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## rightwinger (Apr 1, 2018)

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> Madison said faction is to freedom what air is to fire.
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> To prevent faction and civil war he gave us the greatest gift in human history, the Constitution. Immediately thereafter liberals  (called Federalists a the time)  appeared to represent a faction that wanted the Constitution to mean anything they wanted it to mean and thus the blueprint Madison gave us was undermined if not destroyed. Today, as a result,  we are perhaps more divided than ever before thanks to those who lack the wisdom to understand Madison's Constitution. What was Madison's greatest regret: he wasn't even more clear in his Constitution about the need to make the liberal faction instantly illegal whenever it appeared.



Madison had nothing to do with the Republican Party
He was also one of the biggest liberals of his day


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Apr 1, 2018)

We know for a fact Madison was a liberal when he observed that "all power in human hands is liable to be abused,” hence the creation of our Constitutional Republic, whose citizens are subject solely to the rule of law.

That the rights and protected liberties of the people shall not be subject to the capricious whims of ‘majority rule’ is a fundamental liberal principle.

We’ve seen that principle prevent conservatives from seeking to deny women their right to privacy, gay Americans their right to equal protection of the laws, and minorities their right to vote.

Indeed, if there is any political dogma Madison might be hostile to, it would be conservative dogma.


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## Billy_Kinetta (Apr 1, 2018)

rightwinger said:


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Not by modern definition.  Why don't you quit shilling that nonsense.


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## rightwinger (Apr 1, 2018)

Madison and Jefferson are some of my favorite liberals


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## rightwinger (Apr 1, 2018)

Billy_Kinetta said:


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A liberal is a liberal

Conservatives of his day were tarred and feathered......the good ole days of liberalhood


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## Billy_Kinetta (Apr 1, 2018)

rightwinger said:


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Your ignorance on this matter is astounding.  Ergo, I must consider that it is intentional.

I am liberal in the classical sense.  Surely, you would freely admit that I am nothing like you people, politically.


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## rightwinger (Apr 1, 2018)

Billy_Kinetta said:


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Conservatives of the day supported the King

Just like today, they followed the money


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## DOTR (Apr 1, 2018)

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> Madison said faction is to freedom what air is to fire.
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> To prevent faction and civil war he gave us the greatest gift in human history, the Constitution. Immediately thereafter liberals  (called Federalists a the time)  appeared to represent a faction that wanted the Constitution to mean anything they wanted it to mean and thus the blueprint Madison gave us was undermined if not destroyed. Today, as a result,  we are perhaps more divided than ever before thanks to those who lack the wisdom to understand Madison's Constitution. What was Madison's greatest regret: he wasn't even more clear in his Constitution about the need to make the liberal faction instantly illegal whenever it appeared.




  Madison, and the Founding Fathers, would be revolted by liberals.


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## Billy_Kinetta (Apr 1, 2018)

rightwinger said:


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Here, in not too many words for you, a simple primer.

Difference Between Modern Liberalism and Classical Liberalism


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## bodecea (Apr 1, 2018)

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> Madison said faction is to freedom what air is to fire.
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> To prevent faction and civil war he gave us the greatest gift in human history, the Constitution. Immediately thereafter liberals  (called Federalists a the time)  appeared to represent a faction that wanted the Constitution to mean anything they wanted it to mean and thus the blueprint Madison gave us was undermined if not destroyed. Today, as a result,  we are perhaps more divided than ever before thanks to those who lack the wisdom to understand Madison's Constitution. What was Madison's greatest regret: he wasn't even more clear in his Constitution about the need to make the liberal faction instantly illegal whenever it appeared.


He was not founder of the Republican Party....it didn't exist until about 1856.


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## bodecea (Apr 1, 2018)

DOTR said:


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They talk to you, do they?


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## Pogo (Apr 1, 2018)

Billy_Kinetta said:


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There is no "classical" Liberalism.  Liberalism is Liberalism, period.  This "classical" bullshit was invented by Doublethinkers like Jonah Goldberg and Joe McCarthy to try to use the same term to mean its own opposite.  You can't do that in English.  Or any other language except maybe a tonal one.


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## Pogo (Apr 1, 2018)

DOTR said:


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Madison et al *WERE* Liberals.

So you're back there with Special Ed, imagining James Madison wanting to make himself illegal.
Consider the company.


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## Pogo (Apr 1, 2018)

rightwinger said:


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Actually he was pretty short, so I wouldn't say "biggest".


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## Moonglow (Apr 1, 2018)

Pogo said:


> Special Ed returns. For those who joined in the last year or so the reason we call him "Special Ed" will make itself readily apparent.
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> Now on to the refutation.  The Republican Party was founded in *1854 *in Ripon Wisconsin.  James Madison was already dead for eighteen years.  These are simple historical facts.  This is however a tiny bit closer to Special Ed's previous claim where he had Jefferson founding the Party --- 28 years after_ his_ own death.
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What's even more amazing is that during Jackson the Democratic-Republican party was created,,,but Madison was retired by then...


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## DOTR (Apr 1, 2018)

bodecea said:


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  They left me letters and documents. Speak to me every time I read them.


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## Billy_Kinetta (Apr 1, 2018)

Pogo said:


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Ignorance is catchy among you people, eh?


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## Votto (Apr 1, 2018)

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> Madison said faction is to freedom what air is to fire.
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> To prevent faction and civil war he gave us the greatest gift in human history, the Constitution. Immediately thereafter liberals  (called Federalists a the time)  appeared to represent a faction that wanted the Constitution to mean anything they wanted it to mean and thus the blueprint Madison gave us was undermined if not destroyed. Today, as a result,  we are perhaps more divided than ever before thanks to those who lack the wisdom to understand Madison's Constitution. What was Madison's greatest regret: he wasn't even more clear in his Constitution about the need to make the liberal faction instantly illegal whenever it appeared.



Madison spelled out what it means, Progs just ignore it.

As Madison said about the General Welfare Clause of the Constitution.

"If Congress can employ money indefinitely to the general welfare,
and are the sole and supreme judges of the general welfare,
they may take the care of religion into their own hands;
they may appoint teachers in every State, county and parish
and pay them out of their public treasury;
they may take into their own hands the education of children,
establishing in like manner schools throughout the Union;
they may assume the provision of the poor;
they may undertake the regulation of all roads other than post-roads;
in short, every thing, from the highest object of state legislation
down to the most minute object of police,
would be thrown under the power of Congress.... Were the power
of Congress to be established in the latitude contended for,
it would subvert the very foundations, and transmute the very nature
of the limited Government established by the people of America."


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## Pogo (Apr 1, 2018)

DOTR said:


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I think those are probably restraining orders.


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## rightwinger (Apr 1, 2018)

Billy_Kinetta said:


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LOL
Fake news

The issues of liberalism may change as society faces new challenges 

But a Liberal is a liberal is a liberal
And Conservatives remain assholes no matter what era


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## Billy_Kinetta (Apr 1, 2018)

rightwinger said:


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Sometimes it's fun watching retards without their helmets.  Thank you for the entertainment.


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## rightwinger (Apr 1, 2018)

Billy_Kinetta said:


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I accept your concession

Now explain to the nice people who the conservatives were during our founding


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## Pogo (Apr 1, 2018)

rightwinger said:


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Going by his posting I thought it was a "concussion".


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## rightwinger (Apr 1, 2018)

I just love reading revisionist conservative history


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## Billy_Kinetta (Apr 1, 2018)

rightwinger said:


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Requisitioning terminology to its opposite does not change an original definition.  The difference is widely accepted in scholarship.  Only the stupid reject the fact.

The Tories were the Democrats of their time.  Government over liberty.

Hail to the King, baby.


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## bodecea (Apr 1, 2018)

rightwinger said:


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Shall we give him a hint?


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## Pogo (Apr 1, 2018)

Billy_Kinetta said:


> Requisitioning terminology to its opposite does not change an original definition.



Agree, it doesn't.  It simply fails on its face and the original continues, two opposite meanings for the same word being impossible.

But this was my point, not Rightwinger's. 




Billy_Kinetta said:


> The difference is widely accepted in scholarship.



No, it's not.  It's mocked, as I just did.




Billy_Kinetta said:


> Only the stupid reject the fact.



And you're the klown who just posted to the wrong poster.


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## Pogo (Apr 1, 2018)

rightwinger said:


> I just love reading revisionist conservative history



It's so.... creative.  In a desperate, flailing, gasping-for-breath kind of way.


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## Billy_Kinetta (Apr 1, 2018)

Pogo said:


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Nah.  You were the right target.


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## Pogo (Apr 1, 2018)

Billy_Kinetta said:


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Correct.  I was.
But you posted to Rightwinger.

See post 28.

ooopsie.


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Apr 1, 2018)

Since the Foundation Era liberals have sought to ensure that the rights and protected liberties of the people be safeguarded from government excess and overreach:

That government may not compel adherence to a particular religious doctrine or dogma, nor promote or excessively entangle itself with a particular religious doctrine or dogma, nor prohibit the practice of any religion – including being free from religion altogether.

That free speech and free expression be immune from unwarranted government preemption and regulation – no matter how hateful, destructive, bigoted, or racist that speech might be.  

That government may not prohibit a citizen from expressing his individual liberty, or deny him the right to self-determination, the right to privacy, or the right to make personal decisions about his private life free from government interference.    

During this Nation’s entire history liberals have defended and fought for the above principles, often defending the rights and protected liberties of the American people from conservatives fearful of change, diversity, and expressions of individual liberty – conservatives who perceive free speech, free expression, and acts of self-determination as a threat to rightist dogma and the conservative political agenda.


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## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 1, 2018)

Billy_Kinetta said:


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 words can have multiple meanings and those meanings can change over time. To facilitate communication we use today’s most common meaning rather than burden the reader with knowing different definitions from different centuries Today conservatives favor limited government or freedom from government and liberals the opposite. Jefferson and Madison then were conservatives  who founded Republican Party in 1793 and won presidency in 1800. It is extremely easy to look up primary sources and see what name Jefferson and Madison called their party. This would be obvious to all but two-year-olds and liberals.


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## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 1, 2018)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Since the Foundation Era liberals have sought to ensure that the rights and protected liberties of the people be safeguarded from government excess and overreach:
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> That government may not compel adherence to a particular religious doctrine or dogma, nor promote or excessively entangle itself with a particular religious doctrine or dogma, nor prohibit the practice of any religion – including being free from religion altogether.
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Sub moronic liberal nonsense of course the definition you are using for liberal is good and the definition for conservative is bad


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## CrusaderFrank (Apr 1, 2018)

18th Century liberals wete called Quislings and Federalists


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## Pogo (Apr 1, 2018)

EdwardBaiamonte said:


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Then it's beyond your reach, because again, imbecile, the Republican Party was founded in Ripon Wisconsin in *1854 *--- decades after both Jefferson and Madison --- who were, all together now, *Liberals *--- were pushing up daisies.

You tried to pull this same shit two years ago claiming Jefferson started it.  28 years after his own death.

Dumbass.

There was another "Republican" party in between too, the American Republican Party (1843) which was a nationalist anti-immigrant anti-Catholic party (basically a forerunner of the Klan). They were commonly called the Know Nothings.


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## Pogo (Apr 1, 2018)

CrusaderFrank said:


> 18th Century liberals wete called Quislings and Federalists



Nah, that's what McCarthy's HUAC were called when they went on the road and played Norway..


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## Syriusly (Apr 2, 2018)

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> Madison said faction is to freedom what air is to fire.d.



Tell us more about how Madison founded the Republican Party. 

This is fascinating.


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## Syriusly (Apr 2, 2018)

DOTR said:


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LOL I find that so funny on so many levels. 

_“The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.”
—John Adams_

This from Thomas Jefferson in an April 11, 1823, letter to John Adams: _The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme Being in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. ... But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding._


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## Syriusly (Apr 2, 2018)

Billy_Kinetta said:


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LOL- this in a thread by a contard telling us that James Madison founded the Republican Party.


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## rightwinger (Apr 2, 2018)

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Sorry pal

Torres were as conservative as they come.


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## rightwinger (Apr 2, 2018)

Pogo said:


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Wait....it only gets better

They now claim MLK was a Republican and JFK was conservative


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## Billy_Kinetta (Apr 2, 2018)

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The term is associated with certain political ideals and philosophies.  To assign it to the modern definition and then claim Jefferson and Madison fall under that definition is dishonest in the extreme.  The Founders most assuredly were not "social justice warriors".


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## Billy_Kinetta (Apr 2, 2018)

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You're flipping definitions, Comrade.  An old game.


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## Billy_Kinetta (Apr 2, 2018)

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Miguel Torres?

Tories were monarchists.


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## Faun (Apr 2, 2018)

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> Madison said faction is to freedom what air is to fire.
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> To prevent faction and civil war he gave us the greatest gift in human history, the Constitution. Immediately thereafter liberals  (called Federalists a the time)  appeared to represent a faction that wanted the Constitution to mean anything they wanted it to mean and thus the blueprint Madison gave us was undermined if not destroyed. Today, as a result,  we are perhaps more divided than ever before thanks to those who lack the wisdom to understand Madison's Constitution. What was Madison's greatest regret: he wasn't even more clear in his Constitution about the need to make the liberal faction instantly illegal whenever it appeared.


Madison is not the founder of the Republican Party.

Republican Party founded - Mar 20, 1854 - HISTORY.com


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## rightwinger (Apr 2, 2018)

Billy_Kinetta said:


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Social Justice?

All men are created equal was all about social justice


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## rightwinger (Apr 2, 2018)

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Yes Torries supported the King
Anything but a Liberal who opposed the monarchy


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## Billy_Kinetta (Apr 2, 2018)

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Social justice is "justice in terms of the distribution of wealth, opportunities, and privileges within a society."

"Individuality gives way to the struggle for social justice" is not at all what the Founders had in mind.


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## rightwinger (Apr 2, 2018)

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No shit Sherlock

Wealth, opportunities and privileges were concentrated in the royal class
The class that our liberal founders fought against 

Conservative Torries supported the crown.....as alway...followed the money


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## whitehall (Apr 2, 2018)

First they take over the education system and erase references to the Founding Fathers and then the crazy anti-American left uses the media as a propaganda arm of anarchists and revolutionaries. Respect for the Flag and patriotism is ridiculed and the Constitution is considered to be an irrelevant antiquated 18th century document. Next thing you know they repeal the Bill of Rights starting with the 2nd Amendment. Didn't we learn anything from 20th century Germany?


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## rightwinger (Apr 2, 2018)

whitehall said:


> First they take over the education system and erase references to the Founding Fathers and then the crazy anti-American left uses the media as a propaganda arm of anarchists and revolutionaries. Respect for the Flag and patriotism is ridiculed and the Constitution is considered to be an irrelevant antiquated 18th century document. Next thing you know they repeal the Bill of Rights starting with the 2nd Amendment. Didn't we learn anything from 20th century Germany?


Anarchy....anarchy I say


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## Pogo (Apr 2, 2018)

Syriusly said:


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It goes right along with Lumpy 1 's "the Democrats invented slavery".

and "FDR caused the Depression".

and "O'bama caused the other Depression"

The concept of "linear time" has yet to reach the primitives.  They see a history book, they get out their crayons.


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## Syriusly (Apr 2, 2018)

whitehall said:


> First they take over the education system and erase references to the Founding Fathers and then the crazy anti-American left uses the media as a propaganda arm of anarchists and revolutionaries. Respect for the Flag and patriotism is ridiculed and the Constitution is considered to be an irrelevant antiquated 18th century document. Next thing you know they repeal the Bill of Rights starting with the 2nd Amendment. Didn't we learn anything from 20th century Germany?



Certainly you have learned the use of lies and propaganda from Nazi Germany.


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## CrusaderFrank (Apr 2, 2018)

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JFK was a Conservative, more of a Conservative than 98% of he Republican Party -- and he got killed for it


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## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 2, 2018)

Faun said:


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That would be huge news to Jefferson and Madison who founded the Republican Party in 1793 to stand for very very limited govt.


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## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 2, 2018)

Syriusly said:


> LOL- this in a thread by a contard telling us that James Madison founded the Republican Party.


 yes Jefferson and Madison founded it in 1793. What party did you think they formed to oppose the big govt liberals or Federalists???


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## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 2, 2018)

Pogo said:


> , the Republican Party was founded in Ripon Wisconsin in *1854 *--- decades after both Jefferson and Madison --- who were, all together now, *Liberals *--- were pushing up daisies.



Jefferson and Madison formed the Republican party in 1793 to oppose the big govt liberals or federalists led by Hamilton and Adams. What Party do you think Jefferson and Madison formed to oppose the big govt liberals or federalists?? Welcome to your first lesson in American History.


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## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 2, 2018)

rightwinger said:


> Now explain to the nice people who the conservatives were during our founding



1) conservatives are for limited govt so conservatives  would be Jefferson and Madison as opposed to Adams and Hamilton who wanted unlimited govt

2) another definition hold that conservatives are against change so the would be those loyal to England before the revolution, and those loyal to Articles of Confederation  and opposed to Constitution after the Revolution.


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## rightwinger (Apr 2, 2018)

CrusaderFrank said:


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Too funny

JFK was as liberal as they come

Now tell me how Jesus was a conservative too


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## rightwinger (Apr 2, 2018)

EdwardBaiamonte said:


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Wrong again crazy Eddie

Conservatives back the status quo. Status quo was the King of England

Limited government is a modern interpretation


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## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 2, 2018)

rightwinger said:


> JFK was as liberal as they come


 “But the most direct and significant kind of Federal action aiding economic growth is to make possible an increase in private consumption and investment demand—to cut the fetters which hold back private spending.If Government is to retain the confidence of the people, it must not spend more than can be justified on grounds of national need or spent with maximum efficiency.The final and best means of strengthening demand among consumers and business is to reduce the burden on private income and the deterrents to private initiative which are imposed by our present tax system; and this administration pledged itself last summer to an across-the-board, top-to-bottom cut in personal and corporate income taxes to be enacted and become effective in 1963.” President Kennedy goes on to say “I am talking about the accumulated evidence of the last five years that our present tax system, developed as it was, in good part, during World War II to restrain growth, exerts too heavy a burden on growth in peace time; that it siphons out of the private economy too large a share of personal and business purchasing power; that it reduces the financial incentives for personal effort, investment, and risk-taking…In short, to increase demand and lift the economy, the Federal Government’s most useful role is not to push into a program of excessive increases in public expenditures, but to expand the incentives and opportunities for private expenditures…When consumers purchase more goods, plants use more of their capacity, men are hired instead of laid off, investment increases and profits are high. Corporate tax rates must also be cut to increase incentives and the availability of investment capital.”-John Kennedy


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## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 2, 2018)

rightwinger said:


> Conservatives back the status quo.



yes at one point that loyalty to England, then loyalty to Articles of Confederation, and loyalty to Hitler Stalin and Mao when they were the status quo. Do you think this is too complicated for you?


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## rightwinger (Apr 2, 2018)

EdwardBaiamonte said:


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JFK set a top level tax rate of 70 percent

Does that make him conservative?  I’m willing to go to that rate in deference to conservatism


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## rightwinger (Apr 2, 2018)

EdwardBaiamonte said:


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?


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## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 2, 2018)

rightwinger said:


> JFK set a top level tax rate of 70 percent
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> Does that make him conservative?  I’m willing to go to that rate in deference to conservatism



top rate means nothing since nobody paid it. Gov't then collect far less  as % of GDP. Still want to go back???


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## Billy_Kinetta (Apr 2, 2018)

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Too funny.  The philosophy of limited government is no modern contrivance.  Here's some Cliff's-like notes for you.

John Locke - Wikipedia


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## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 2, 2018)

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you said conservatives back status quo so those who opposed Hitler were conservatives and those who wanted change to Hitler Stalin and Mao were liberals-right????


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## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 2, 2018)

Faun said:


> Madison is not the founder of the Republican Party.
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> Republican Party founded - Mar 20, 1854 - HISTORY.com



So who founded Republican party in 1793??


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## Syriusly (Apr 2, 2018)

EdwardBaiamonte said:


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> > LOL- this in a thread by a contard telling us that James Madison founded the Republican Party.
> ...


I am just wondering what alternate reality that you live in that the Republican Party existed in 1793.


----------



## Syriusly (Apr 2, 2018)

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> Faun said:
> 
> 
> > Madison is not the founder of the Republican Party.
> ...



Mao?

Clive Bundy?

Martha Washington?


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Apr 2, 2018)

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> Faun said:
> 
> 
> > Madison is not the founder of the Republican Party.
> ...


What part of “the Republican Party was founded in 1854” do you not understand.


----------



## rightwinger (Apr 2, 2018)

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > JFK set a top level tax rate of 70 percent
> ...


Nobody pays it now

You willing to go to “conservative JFKs” upper tax rate?


----------



## rightwinger (Apr 2, 2018)

Syriusly said:


> EdwardBaiamonte said:
> 
> 
> > Syriusly said:
> ...


Jesus was a Republican


----------



## Syriusly (Apr 2, 2018)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> EdwardBaiamonte said:
> 
> 
> > Faun said:
> ...



Remember when Lincoln became the second candidate of the Republican Party in 1797?


----------



## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 2, 2018)

rightwinger said:


> Jesus was a Republican



he challenged the Roman govt and thus created individual liberty which ultimately led to Locke Jefferson and our Founding so in a sense he was the first Republican.


----------



## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 2, 2018)

Syriusly said:


> C_Clayton_Jones said:
> 
> 
> > EdwardBaiamonte said:
> ...



why so afraid to  tell us what Party  Jefferson founded in 1793??? What do we learn from your fear?
>>>


----------



## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 2, 2018)

rightwinger said:


> You willing to go to “conservative JFKs” upper tax rate?



sure as long as all the same loophole are there are you will to go to Kennedy's tiny govt with tiny % of GDP to waste?


----------



## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 2, 2018)

Syriusly said:


> I am just wondering what alternate reality that you live in that the Republican Party existed in 1793.



so what Party were Jefferson and Madison in in 1793?????????????????


----------



## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 2, 2018)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> What part of “the Republican Party was founded in 1854” do you not understand.



What part of “the Republican Party was founded in 1793 by Madison and Jefferson  do you not understand


----------



## Syriusly (Apr 2, 2018)

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> Syriusly said:
> 
> 
> > C_Clayton_Jones said:
> ...


You mean the Democratic Republican Party? That existed until 1825.

What Party was President Lincoln the second Presidential candidate of?


----------



## Syriusly (Apr 2, 2018)

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Jesus was a Republican
> ...



LOL- Jesus would be surprised to find that he 'challenged' Rome and is a Republican.


----------



## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 2, 2018)

Syriusly said:


> LOL- Jesus would be surprised to find that he 'challenged' Rome and is a Republican.


 you don't think Jesus challenged Rome????????


----------



## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 2, 2018)

Syriusly said:


> You mean the Democratic Republican Party? That existed until 1825.



if you have 18th century primary source showing Democratic Republican Party I will pay you $10000. Bet??


----------



## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 2, 2018)

Syriusly said:


> What Party was President Lincoln the second Presidential candidate of?



a second Republican anti slavery party largely irrelevant today given that slavery is long over while  main argument in human history is between freedom (Jefferson) and govt (Marx Obama Sanders, etc). Now do you understand?


----------



## Syriusly (Apr 2, 2018)

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> Syriusly said:
> 
> 
> > What Party was President Lincoln the second Presidential candidate of?
> ...



President Lincoln was the second Presidential candidate of the modern Republican Party.

And the freedom issue between Jefferson- and Obama- is that Jefferson believed it was appropriate for white men to own black slaves. 

That is the 'freedom' that Jefferson believed in.


----------



## Syriusly (Apr 2, 2018)

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> Syriusly said:
> 
> 
> > LOL- Jesus would be surprised to find that he 'challenged' Rome and is a Republican.
> ...



Not in the least. 

Jesus challenged the Jewish hierarchy.


----------



## Pogo (Apr 2, 2018)

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> Pogo said:
> 
> 
> > , the Republican Party was founded in Ripon Wisconsin in *1854 *--- decades after both Jefferson and Madison --- who were, all together now, *Liberals *--- were pushing up daisies.
> ...



Actually I just gave you your 47,584,739th lesson in American history, which has been the same lesson every time, and for the 47,584,739th time it sailed over your deaf, blind, ignorant head.

And no child, Jefferson and Madison did not form a political party for the purpose of opposing _themselves_.


----------



## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 2, 2018)

Syriusly said:


> EdwardBaiamonte said:
> 
> 
> > Syriusly said:
> ...



Modern Republican Party is for freedom from big liberal govt so is much closer to Jefferson's Republican Party which stood for same thing.

Yes Jefferson believed it was appropriate to own slaves having been born owning them but Jesus believed the same thing and yet the 2 men set in motion the process by which billions of human being were freed from slavery, the latest example being 1.4 billion Chinese being freed from libcommunism. Do you understand now?


----------



## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 2, 2018)

Pogo said:


> Actually I just gave you your 47,584,739th lesson in American history, .


 you did so what Party did Jefferson and Madison form in 1793??


----------



## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 2, 2018)

Syriusly said:


> Not in the least.
> 
> Jesus challenged the Jewish hierarchy.[not Roman govt]


a religious scholar too!!!!

Persecution of *Christians* in *Rome*. *Christian* martyrs in the Colosseum Under *Roman* rule, *Christians* were denied business opportunities and status in society, prohibited from worshiping, *attacked* by mobs, persecuted, tortured and killed in organized campaigns by the Romans government.


----------



## Pogo (Apr 2, 2018)

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> Syriusly said:
> 
> 
> > You mean the Democratic Republican Party? That existed until 1825.
> ...



You already owe me several tens of thousands of these "bets".  Are those checks still "in the mail"?

Or were they sent to me by James Madison back in 1793?


----------



## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 2, 2018)

still afraid to tell us what Party Jefferson and Madison formed in 1793??


----------



## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 2, 2018)

Pogo said:


> You already owe me several tens of thousands of these "bets".  Are those checks still "in the mail"?


if you have 18th century primary source showing Democratic Republican Party I will pay you $10000. Bet??


----------



## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 2, 2018)

Pogo said:


> Jefferson and Madison did not form a political party for the purpose of opposing _themselves_.



what??????


----------



## Pogo (Apr 2, 2018)

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> still afraid to tell us what Party Jefferson and Madison formed in 1793??



Did that 95 posts ago in post 3, soon as I got here.

You whiffed on it.

Just like you did in all those other threads where you tried to tell this board that the corpse of Thomas Jefferson, after 28 years of decay, crawled out of his grave to found the Republican Party.  Which was founded, for the 1854th time, *IN 1854*.

Now you're going to the Ignore list because you're littering my Notifications with insipid bullshit posts like the one directly above.

And get my check in the mail.


----------



## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 2, 2018)

Pogo said:


> EdwardBaiamonte said:
> 
> 
> > still afraid to tell us what Party Jefferson and Madison formed in 1793??
> ...



for 12th time:still afraid to tell us what Party Jefferson and Madison formed in 1793??


----------



## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 2, 2018)

Pogo said:


> the Republican Party.  Which was founded, for the 1854th time, *IN 1854*.
> .



You seem to have Jefferson's Republican Party confused with Lincolns. Do you understand?


----------



## Faun (Apr 2, 2018)

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Now explain to the nice people who the conservatives were during our founding
> ...


Federalists begat the National Republicans; and National Republicans begat Whigs; and Whigs begat Republicans.


----------



## Syriusly (Apr 2, 2018)

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> Syriusly said:
> 
> 
> > Not in the least.
> ...



I don't remember Jesus making it to Rome....I guess your Bible is different than mine


----------



## Syriusly (Apr 2, 2018)

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> Syriusly said:
> 
> 
> > EdwardBaiamonte said:
> ...



_1.4 billion Chinese 'being freed from libcommunism'_

Yes it is more and more clear that you are delusional.

China is still an authoritarian communist country- it just that now they have ultra rich and a middle class- but if you aren't sure whether this is still true just try using the internet while in China.


----------



## Syriusly (Apr 2, 2018)

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> Pogo said:
> 
> 
> > the Republican Party.  Which was founded, for the 1854th time, *IN 1854*.
> ...



There is one existing Republican Party- and that is Lincolns.


----------



## Pogo (Apr 2, 2018)

Faun said:


> EdwardBaiamonte said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



Not exactly.  Henry Clay and crew organized the "anti-Jacksonians" which begat Whiggery and were briefly called National Republicans, not to be confused with the American Republican Party (1843) which were a bunch of nativist assholes.  The Whigs fell apart a couple of decades later when they couldn't come to a consensus on the Slavery question.  Some were for it, some agin' it.  The ones that were agin' it later joined the Republican Party (the one that still exists) once it was founded in 1854.

Pertinent to the ridiculous timefuck fantasy of this thread, the Whigs in their heyday were the party of doing big things with government, so the trace back to the Federalists is well taken at least ideologically on that account.  When they infused the nascent Republican Party with new blood it made them the party of "big government" while the Democrats were all about decentralization and "states rights".  And that's a snapshot that blows up Special Ed's childish fantasy of political parties that never evolve over time.

The "Jacksonians" meanwhile were organized by Jackson's successor Martin van Buren into the Democratic Party, which first used that name in 1834.

The "Democratic-Republican Party" of Jefferson/Adams is thus unrelated to any of the succeeding parties that used either of those terms, and confoundingly enough, were in their time called "Republicans" for short, or "Democrats"--- interchageably.


----------



## Faun (Apr 2, 2018)

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> if you have 18th century primary source showing Democratic Republican Party I will pay you $10000. Bet??


I'll take that bet ...



			
				Encyclopaedia Britannica said:
			
		

> *United States presidential election of 1800*, American presidential election held in 1800 in which *Democratic-Republican Thomas Jefferson* was elected as the country’s third president.



Now pay up!


----------



## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 2, 2018)

Faun said:


> EdwardBaiamonte said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


so???? do you have any idea what your point is??


----------



## Faun (Apr 2, 2018)

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> Faun said:
> 
> 
> > EdwardBaiamonte said:
> ...


Yeah, my point is — where’s the $10,000.00 you owe me...?


----------



## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 2, 2018)

Faun said:


> EdwardBaiamonte said:
> 
> 
> > Faun said:
> ...


How do you figure IOU $10,000


----------



## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 2, 2018)

Faun said:


> EdwardBaiamonte said:
> 
> 
> > if you have 18th century primary source showing Democratic Republican Party I will pay you $10000. Bet??
> ...


If you ac except the bet you need a primary source from the 18th century showing at the party of Jefferson and Madison was called Democrat Republican. And article from a children’s encyclopedia is not sufficient


----------



## Faun (Apr 2, 2018)

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> Faun said:
> 
> 
> > EdwardBaiamonte said:
> ...


Nope, that wasn’t the bet. You don’t get to change it after you lose. Your bet — _*”if you have 18th century primary source showing Democratic Republican Party I will pay you $10000. Bet??”*_

And I just showed you evidence of the Democratic-Republican party in the 18th century.

Now pay up, Crazy Eddie......


----------



## emilynghiem (Apr 2, 2018)

Pogo said:


> Special Ed returns. For those who joined in the last year or so the reason we call him "Special Ed" will make itself readily apparent.
> 
> Now on to the refutation.  The Republican Party was founded in *1854 *in Ripon Wisconsin.  James Madison was already dead for eighteen years.  These are simple historical facts.  This is however a tiny bit closer to Special Ed's previous claim where he had Jefferson founding the Party --- 28 years after_ his_ own death.
> 
> ...



Dear Pogo and rightwinger
The best explanation and distinction I've seen clarifying Liberals and Conservatives beliefs
came from Allen West's book "Guardian of the Republic":

* today's Liberals came from the Radical Liberal approach made famous by Rousseau
This approach is using Govt to establish the collective will of the people

* today's Conservatives came from the Classical Liberal approach by John Locke
This is where the tradition came from that the Constitution LIMITS and CHECKS the powers of govt (where people do NOT rely on Govt for natural rights that come from Nature or God,
so the PEOPLE have the power and authority of Govt, not the other way around)

So the two groups use govt in different ways.
One (the Liberals) believe in RELYING on  Govt as the Central Authority for establishing laws for everyone.
And usually the emphasis is on "promoting the general welfare" so this is proactive toward social programs and benefits
based on what Liberals push for TODAY.

The Other (the Conservatives believe in LIMITING Govt so that the authority of decisions remains vested in the people.

So this is where the pushing and shoving comes from, where one side appears to want to expand govt to "control"
all the services and decisions FOR the people; while the other appears to want to get rid of govt and excess legislation.
The problem being that Corporations already have collective power and influence similar to Govt but have no
regulatory means to prevent abuses of power, as the Constitution serves to check official govt but not corporations.

Because of the disproportionate influence of corporations and media in the democratic process of govt and parties,
this is why Liberals push for more dependence on Govt for protections from this source of abusive oppression
that the Constitution doesn't check against. While Conservatives continue to argue for "free market" solutions
against the massive monopolies of corporate interests that bypass checks and  balances.

Pogo and rightwinger Regardless where Madison or Jefferson, or Mason or other past leaders
stood on federalism anti-federalism,
do you agree with West's explanation that the
* Liberals depend on Govt as the central authority for establishing laws for the public and/or promoting general welfare
* Conservatives only agree to grant CERTAIN powers to Govt as defined in the Constitution,
believe in Limited Govt and push for enforcing Constitutional limits, check and balances, and separation of power to prevent too much control of people's choices and resources from being vested in the hands of a few officials running govt (instead of the PEOPLE being the authority that govt has the duty to represent and reflect the consent of).

Is that a fair delineation between the two camps?

According to West, even the Black leadership was split between these two ideologies,
where DuBois believed in relying on the political process through GOVT to "establish political rights and equality"
while Booker T. Washington believed that equality and true empowerment would be gained by
teaching INDEPENDENCE of govt, and for Blacks especially to own their own property and businesses in order to be equal.

This stems from the "difference in beliefs" where
Conservatives tend to believe that the natural rights of man come from Natural Laws (not from govt)
while Liberals don't believe in God given rights or laws (which is faith based or just plain "made up" as a religious cult following for class control)
and believe that people depend on GOVT to establish protections of rights.

So that's the summary of political beliefs from left and right.
Does this seem accurate to you?
Or what  would you clarify? Thanks!


----------



## cnm (Apr 2, 2018)

I've had to stop reading this thread on the first page. Rightard revisionism is threatening to break one or more of my ribs. I may be back if I can find a corset.


----------



## cnm (Apr 2, 2018)

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> If you ac except the bet you need a primary source from the 18th century showing at the party of Jefferson and Madison was called Democrat Republican. And article from a children’s encyclopedia is not sufficient


I think we'd all agree that calling the Encyclopedia Britannica a children's encyclopedia is sufficiently the act of a pussy.


----------



## cnm (Apr 3, 2018)

This has the look of a primary source document. What do you reckon?

Founders Online: To Thomas Jefferson from Delaware Democratic Republicans, [on …

Oh, it's from the 19th century. Not to worry, getting closer...


----------



## Syriusly (Apr 3, 2018)

So James Madison- the founder of the Republican Slavery Party.......how is he relevant today?


----------



## cnm (Apr 3, 2018)

How about this one?

*Kent County, Delaware, Democratic Republican Citizens to Thomas Jefferson, January 13, 1807 *
Kent County, Delaware, Democratic Republican Citizens to Thomas Jefferson, January 13, 1807


----------



## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 3, 2018)

cnm said:


> This has the look of a primary source document. What do you reckon?
> 
> Founders Online: To Thomas Jefferson from Delaware Democratic Republicans, [on …
> 
> Oh, it's from the 19th century. Not to worry, getting closer...


Getting closer to what? In the Text republican is used with a capital letter when referring to the Republican Party and not with a capital letter when referring to ordinary people. Do you understand? And no where is there a reference to the Democratic Republican Party. Now you can see that Jefferson was a Republican just like modern Republicans and both believed in very very limited government Or freedom from government. Let’s make no mistake about it Modern Democrats have no association with any of the founding principles of America.  Republicans can claim a direct association with Jefferson and Lincoln while Democrats have a direct association only with Karl Marx.


----------



## Pogo (Apr 3, 2018)

emilynghiem said:


> Pogo said:
> 
> 
> > Special Ed returns. For those who joined in the last year or so the reason we call him "Special Ed" will make itself readily apparent.
> ...



No. It doesn't.

Allen West is a certifiable nutjob.  Again you can't use the same term to mean two opposite things -- he's trying to play a single word both ways.  Liberalism believes that government, should, outside of regulating obvious common necessities, stand out of the way and let People be People.  The opposite of that, the belief that government should be stepping in and controlling People, is Statism, not "Liberalism".  It _should _be obvious ("should" be) that you can't simultaneously pull in opposite directions.  You cannot stand up and walk in an "eastwest" direction.  It's either "east" or else it's "west".

It's impossible for "Liberalism" to mean its own opposite.  We don't say something is "bright" when we actually mean it's "dark".  That's pure bullshit intended to break down communication and slander an entire faction the bullshitter sees as a threat.

Anyone notice that this is exactly what George Orwell was describing in the term "Doublethink"?


----------



## jillian (Apr 3, 2018)

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> Madison said faction is to freedom what air is to fire.
> 
> To prevent faction and civil war he gave us the greatest gift in human history, the Constitution. Immediately thereafter liberals  (called Federalists a the time)  appeared to represent a faction that wanted the Constitution to mean anything they wanted it to mean and thus the blueprint Madison gave us was undermined if not destroyed. Today, as a result,  we are perhaps more divided than ever before thanks to those who lack the wisdom to understand Madison's Constitution. What was Madison's greatest regret: he wasn't even more clear in his Constitution about the need to make the liberal faction instantly illegal whenever it appeared.



Madison was one FACTION of the government at the time. And he lost most battles to the Hamilltonian wing.

just saying....


and your misstating what he believed is a disservice to madison and an embarrassment to you.

but watching partisan hacks spout what they pretend the constitutional means is always amusing.


----------



## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 3, 2018)

Pogo said:


> emilynghiem said:
> 
> 
> > Pogo said:
> ...


 absurdly disorganized elementary and embarrassing. Words have different meanings through time and several meanings at any one time. William Buckley Junior defined conservatism in the post World War II era by being the most important conservative by far in the post -World War II era. He defined it in short as “against government.”  His position was identical to our founders who created something totally new under the sun namely very limited government because they too were in short against govt.Before them the debate starts with Plato and Aristotle one of whom was for big wonderful Liberal government and one of whom was totally opposed to big liberal govt and for freedom. Let’s not forget the American Revolution  was for freedom from big liberal government( using today’s William F Buckley Junior’s definitions) not for freedom from the Girl Scouts.


----------



## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 3, 2018)

jillian said:


> EdwardBaiamonte said:
> 
> 
> > Madison said faction is to freedom what air is to fire.
> ...


Actually Madison and Jefferson formed the Republican Party to oppose Hamilton and the federalists. The Republicans crushed the federalists who were never heard from again. 1+1 = 2.  in fact when the Republicans crushed Hamilton and the federalist they called it the second American revolution .


----------



## Pogo (Apr 3, 2018)

"Freedom from big Liberal government"    And sadly too late for April Fool's Day.  Which is however the date on which this preposterous perversion of historical fact plopped itself here.

"Big Liberal government"....

"Jumbo shrimp"
"Living dead"
"Only choice"
"Act naturally"
"Now then..."
"Special Ed's point"
Consider your oxymoron "completely disassembled".


----------



## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 3, 2018)

Pogo said:


> emilynghiem said:
> 
> 
> > Pogo said:
> ...


 Pogo lacks the IQ for the subtlety here.In the era of monarchy folks like John Locke and John Stuart Mill were for change or against evil monarchy or against established big government’s.  at the time they were defined as liberal. Then when liberals got control of government in primarily the American Revolution they then decided that government could be a force for good. Now you can see how in the course of history liberalism meant against government and for government.The meaning of the words can change. Simple enough for you?


----------



## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 3, 2018)

Pogo said:


> "Freedom from big Liberal government"    And sadly too late for April Fool's Day.  Which is however the date on which this preposterous perversion of historical fact plopped itself here.
> 
> "Big Liberal government"....
> 
> ...


Translation – I lack the IQ for a substantive response as a typical liberal


----------



## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 3, 2018)

Pogo said:


> The "Democratic-Republican Party" of Jefferson/Adams is thus unrelated to any of the succeeding parties that used either of those terms, and confoundingly enough, were in their time called "Republicans" for short, or "Democrats"--- interchageably.


Holy total confusion Batman!
1) Adams was a federalist and mortal enemy of Jefferson 
2)If you read Jeffersons letters you see he was always called a Republican and never a big D Democrat. Interchangeably???
3)  The Republican Jeffersonian idea of freedom from a big Liberal government has always been represented through American history and is now represented by the modern Republican Party. In fact until the communist inspired New deal the primary competition among political parties in America was to protect freedom from government. Now you have a context in which to understand American history


----------



## Syriusly (Apr 3, 2018)

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> cnm said:
> 
> 
> > This has the look of a primary source document. What do you reckon?
> ...


----------



## cnm (Apr 3, 2018)

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> Do you understand?


Yes. You're snivelling.


----------



## rightwinger (Apr 3, 2018)

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > Jesus was a Republican
> ...


Actually, Jesus was crucified by Republicans
Saddam Hussein had Republican Guards


----------



## norwegen (Apr 3, 2018)

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> Faun said:
> 
> 
> > Madison is not the founder of the Republican Party.
> ...


I think the Republicans were already here then.

Jefferson had always been of libertarian persuasion.  An antifederalist while Madison was a Federalist.  Madison left that party to ally with the Jeffersonian Republicans in 1792.


----------



## norwegen (Apr 3, 2018)

Syriusly said:


> EdwardBaiamonte said:
> 
> 
> > Syriusly said:
> ...


Rome made it to Jesus.

In the middle of the last century BC, Israel was a Roman client state.  Later, it became a Roman province.  Rome seated Herod as its governor, and soon Jesus was born.

Yes, indeed, you have a different Bible.


----------



## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 3, 2018)

norwegen said:


> EdwardBaiamonte said:
> 
> 
> > Faun said:
> ...



Jefferson never allied himself with anti-federalists and never came out against  Constitution. I guess he assumed the enumerated powers would be the only enumerated powers


----------



## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 3, 2018)

Syriusly said:


> But then again you also believe that Republicans freed 1.4 billion Chinese from communism.....



and where do you think the Chinese got the idea to try Republican capitalism if not from our Republican capitalists?


----------



## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 3, 2018)

Syriusly said:


> Whereas of course the modern Democratic Party has no connection at all with Karl Marx.



Bernie Sander is an open communist and Democrat. He said, straight out of he Marxist playbook, " it is silly to have 23 deodorant companies when children are going hungry." Do you understand?


----------



## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 3, 2018)

Syriusly said:


> Except of course Jefferson was in a different political party than Lincoln- and Jefferson's "Republican" party was the pro-slavery 'Republican' party.



both Parties were pro slavery at the time as was Jesus in his time. And???


----------



## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 3, 2018)

rightwinger said:


> EdwardBaiamonte said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


translation: as a typical liberal I lack IQ to participate substantively but I know in my gut I'm right about everything I just cant explain why!!


----------



## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 4, 2018)

emilynghiem said:


> So that's the summary of political beliefs from left and right.
> Does this seem accurate to you?
> Or what  would you clarify? Thanks!



right is for freedom from big liberal govt as were our Founders. That is why Constitution gives our central govt only a few enumerated powers.


----------



## Sunsettommy (Apr 5, 2018)

I see that many here are confused about early party labels.

From History

*Federalist Party*
*
Excerpt:

The Federalist Party originated in opposition to the Democratic-Republican Party in America during President George Washington’s first administration. Known for their support of a strong national government, the Federalists emphasized commercial and diplomatic harmony with Britain following the signing of the 1794 Jay Treaty. The party split over negotiations with France during President John Adams’s administration, though it remained a political force until its members passed into the Democratic and the Whig parties in the 1820s. Despite its dissolution, the party made a lasting impact by laying the foundations of a national economy, creating a national judicial system and formulating principles of foreign policy.
*
LINK


----------



## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 5, 2018)

Sunsettommy said:


> I see that many here are confused about early party labels.
> 
> From History
> 
> ...



Wrong of course, there was no Democratic Republican Party in the 18th Century except in the minds of liberal historians who wish to place modern Democrats at the founding when they do not belong anywhere near the principles of America's founding.. Jefferson and Madison formed the Republican Party in 1792. And now you know it too.


----------



## Pogo (Apr 5, 2018)

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> Sunsettommy said:
> 
> 
> > I see that many here are confused about early party labels.
> ...



Well then you're outing yourself as a liar, since you _*just posted evidence of it,*_ dumb shit.

And we quote:
The Federalist Party originated* in opposition to the Democratic-Republican Party* in America* during President George Washington’s first administration. 
*
Not only your own link --* YOUR OWN POST.  
*
Fucking moron.


----------



## Sunsettommy (Apr 5, 2018)

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> Sunsettommy said:
> 
> 
> > I see that many here are confused about early party labels.
> ...



The Republican Party was founded in 1854, from History.com

*Republican Party founded
*
Excerpt:

In Ripon, Wisconsin, former members of the Whig Party meet to establish a new party to oppose the spread of slavery into the western territories. The Whig Party, which was formed in 1834 to oppose the “tyranny” of President Andrew Jackson, had shown itself incapable of coping with the national crisis over slavery.

With the successful introduction of the Kansas-Nebraska Bill of 1854, an act that dissolved the terms of the Missouri Compromise and allowed slave or free status to be decided in the territories by popular sovereignty, the Whigs disintegrated. By February 1854, anti-slavery Whigs had begun meeting in the upper midwestern states to discuss the formation of a new party. One such meeting, in Wisconsin on March 20, 1854, is generally remembered as the founding meeting of the Republican Party.

LINK

As I said before some people are confused.


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## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 5, 2018)

Pogo said:


> EdwardBaiamonte said:
> 
> 
> > Sunsettommy said:
> ...


you seem very liberal, violent and very confident. We expect this from a liberal.Would you like to bet $10,000 that the term Democratic Republican was used in the 18th century? Time to run away with you will you will tail between your legs?


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## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 6, 2018)

Pogo said:


> EdwardBaiamonte said:
> 
> 
> > Sunsettommy said:
> ...


Would the liberal like to bet $10,000 that  the term democratic republican was used in the 18th century to describe the party that Jefferson and Madison founded in 1792?


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## regent (Apr 23, 2018)

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> Pogo said:
> 
> 
> > EdwardBaiamonte said:
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Used by whom?


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## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 23, 2018)

regent said:


> EdwardBaiamonte said:
> 
> 
> > Pogo said:
> ...



Would the liberal like to bet $10,000 that the term democratic republican was the name used  in the 18th century for the party that Jefferson and Madison founded in 1792?


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## Pogo (Apr 24, 2018)

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> Pogo said:
> 
> 
> > EdwardBaiamonte said:
> ...



Riiiiiiiiiiiiight, there's three things that go together --- "liberal, violent and confident".

Fucking freako.  Get a brain transplant from Dr. Moran.


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## Pogo (Apr 24, 2018)

Sunsettommy said:


> EdwardBaiamonte said:
> 
> 
> > Sunsettommy said:
> ...



Deliberately so.  Special Ed's been on this revisionista campaign for literally years.  Last round he had Jefferson starting the Republican Party --- 28 years after his own death.


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## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 24, 2018)

Pogo said:


> EdwardBaiamonte said:
> 
> 
> > Pogo said:
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you Will notice that most liberals now violently oppose  free speech. They lack the IQ for reason and debate and turn to violence like you just did above and  they show confidence in their violence. Does it remind you of the early Nazis?


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## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 24, 2018)

Pogo said:


> Sunsettommy said:
> 
> 
> > EdwardBaiamonte said:
> ...


As I said I have $10,000 to bet anyone who finds that Jefferson and Madison didn’t form the the Republican Party in 1792 to stand for limited government exactly the wayModern Republicans stand for limited government.


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## TNHarley (Apr 24, 2018)

I love watching people equate liberals with regressive bedwetters


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## Pogo (Apr 24, 2018)

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> Pogo said:
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> > Sunsettommy said:
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You've already owed me several of them there $10,000 envelopes for like three years.  Oh wait, maybe the mail got robbed.  By Thomas Jefferson.  Two hundred years before you mailed it.


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## Pogo (Apr 24, 2018)

Sunsettommy said:


> EdwardBaiamonte said:
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> > Sunsettommy said:
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And the other part of it is that Whig element.  The Whigs in their time were the repository of big government, a trait they brought with them to the new Republican Party-- while the Democrats of the day were all about decentralization and "states rights" so Special Ed is as usual tryng to drive the car while facing backward.

If you can imagine it, the OP has books for sale on Amazon, apparently self-published and no doubt chock full of similar anachronistic paradoxes.  I suspect he lives in a turret up a spiral staircase nobody ever goes up and given an allowance to keep him busy so he doesn't waddle downstairs and start wanking into the Cheerios.


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## paperview (Apr 24, 2018)

Pogo said:


> Sunsettommy said:
> 
> 
> > EdwardBaiamonte said:
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And he spams his garbage all over a myriad of internet boards.

Most people who bother to engage him make minced meat out of him in short order, and he doesn't have a clue how scruffy-insaneman-in-8-hats-screaming at passers-by-on streetcorners he looks.


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## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 24, 2018)

Pogo said:


> You've already owed me several of them there $10,000 envelopes for like three years.  Oh wait, maybe the mail got robbed.  By Thomas Jefferson.  Two hundred years before you mailed it.



see why we say liberalism is based in pure ignorance?


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## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 24, 2018)

Pogo said:


> As I said I have $10,000 to bet anyone who finds that Jefferson and Madison didn’t form the the Republican Party in 1792 to stand for limited government exactly the wayModern Republicans stand for limited government.



You've already owed me several of them there $10,000 envelopes for like three years.  Oh wait, maybe the mail got robbed.  By Thomas Jefferson.  Two hundred years before you mailed it.[/QUOTE]

see why we say liberalism is based in pure ignorance?

*5th Congress (1797-1799)*

Majority Party: Federalist (22 seats)

Minority Party: Republican (10 seats)

Other Parties: 0

Total Seats: 32

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*6th Congress (1799-1801)*

Majority Party: Federalist (22 seats)

Minority Party: Republican (10 seats)

Other Parties: 0

Total Seats: 32

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*7th Congress (1801-1803)*

Majority Party: Republican (17 seats)

Minority Party: Federalist (15 seats)

Other Parties: 0

Vacant: 2

Total Seats: 34

"Historians do not agree on the details surrounding the origin of Parties. Some believe  that Jefferson forged the Republican party from coalition of existing state and local parties"....[in the 1790's].

Page 31, Political Parties in America by Robert Huckshorn( most popular Political Science text on parties in USA.


"Although people were still deeply ambivalent about political parties, although one party did not necessarily recognize the legitimacy of the other, and although men on both sides were nostalgic- at one time or another- for the imaginary golden age of political harmony, few people could be found in the early 1790's who believed the parties did not exist. The parties had names: Federalist and Republican."

- Susan Dunn, Jefferson's Second Revolution.


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## Pogo (Apr 25, 2018)

Once AGAIN for those intimidated by history, the "Democratic-Republican Party", which Jefferson and Madison _did_ start, is no more related to the actual contemporary "Republican Party" founded in 1854 (out of a portion of the Whigs) in Ripon Wisconsin as already posted here and elsewhere, than the American Republican Party of 1843 (commonly called the Know Nothings) was.  Nor for that matter is it related to the National Republican Party founded by Henry Clay, originally loosely known as "anti-Jacksonians" and later known as "Whigs".

Members of the "Democratic-Republican Party" were commonly conversationally called "Republicans" as a shorthand (they were also for a time called the "anti-Administration Party"), but only an idiot would fail to discern the difference between two different things using the same term -- probably the same kind of idiot that would think the "Democratic People's Republic of Korea" was any of those things excepting "of Korea", or that the Nazi Party were "socialists", or that Post Grape-Nuts contains either grapes or nuts, or that the "Pennsylvania Dutch" have roots in Holland.

Bottom line remains ----- if Jefferson and Madison founded the modern Republican Party, then what the hell was going on in Ripon Wisconsin in 1854?  How can you "found" something that already exists?

That'll be $10,000.  _Again_.


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## Moonglow (Apr 25, 2018)

Madison,,,hmmmm....Wasn't he the guy that lost the capital to the British in the War of 1812?


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## Moonglow (Apr 25, 2018)

Madison was so least popular he had to wait till several old members of Congress died before being elected President by the Senate...


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## Moonglow (Apr 25, 2018)

Pogo said:


> Once AGAIN for those intimidated by history, the "Democratic-Republican Party", which Jefferson and Madison _did_ start, is no more related to the actual contemporary "Republican Party" founded in 1854 (out of a portion of the Whigs) in Ripon Wisconsin as already posted here and elsewhere, than the American Republican Party of 1843 (commonly called the Know Nothings) was.  Nor for that matter is it related to the National Republican Party founded by Henry Clay, originally loosely known as "anti-Jacksonians" and later known as "Whigs".
> 
> Members of the "Democratic-Republican Party" were commonly conversationally called "Republicans" as a shorthand (they were also for a time called the "anti-Administration Party"), but only an idiot would fail to discern the difference between two different things using the same term -- probably the same kind of idiot that would think the "Democratic People's Republic of Korea" was any of those things excepting "of Korea", or that the Nazi Party were "socialists", or that Post Grape-Nuts contains either grapes or nuts, or that the "Pennsylvania Dutch" have roots in Holland.
> 
> ...


You keep rewriting history to fit yer political dogma I see...damn facts, always get in the way of a rhetorical run...


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## Moonglow (Apr 25, 2018)

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> Pogo said:
> 
> 
> > As I said I have $10,000 to bet anyone who finds that Jefferson and Madison didn’t form the the Republican Party in 1792 to stand for limited government exactly the wayModern Republicans stand for limited government.
> ...





> see why we say liberalism is based in pure ignorance?
> 
> *5th Congress (1797-1799)*
> 
> ...


No link...Do you not know what footnotes are?


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## Moonglow (Apr 25, 2018)

Also Eddie boy the party was aptly named The Democratic-Republican party..Why you chose to edit the names of political parties I have no 411..

The other party was the Federalist...


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## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 25, 2018)

Pogo said:


> Once AGAIN for those intimidated by history, the "Democratic-Republican Party", which Jefferson and Madison _did_ start, is no more related to the actual contemporary "Republican Party" founded in 1854 (out of a portion of the Whigs) in Ripon Wisconsin as already posted here and elsewhere, than the American Republican Party of
> 
> 
> Pogo said:
> ...




1)you have Primary sources showing you that Madison and Jefferson founded Republican Party in 1793  to stand for very limited government exactly like modern Republicans and no  primary sources showing that they founded the Democratic Republican Party.

2) Republican Party in 1854 may  share same name with modern Republican Party but did not stand for limited government or against liberalism the way Jefferson and Madison did so has nothing significant in common with the Republican party of our founding fathers. Are you still confused?


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## Pogo (Apr 25, 2018)

emilynghiem said:


> Pogo said:
> 
> 
> > Special Ed returns. For those who joined in the last year or so the reason we call him "Special Ed" will make itself readily apparent.
> ...



There's really no question here of "what Liberal means" or who influenced who.  This is a basic matter of simple Linear Time --- which is not negotiable.

*GIVEN *that the (modern) Republican Party was founded in 1854;

and *GIVEN *that Thomas Jefferson _*died *_in 1826 and James Madison in 1836;

and *GIVEN *that both death dates PRECEDE the date of 1854;

*NOW THEREFORE* it is _impossible_ for either Thomas Jefferson _or _James Madison to have founded a political party decades _after their own deaths._

If that sounds like a stupid premise to knock down ----------------------------- it is.  But it's the basis of Special Ed's historical revisionary bullshit, and has been for as long as I've been on this site, and presumably before.  That's the retarded mentality we're dealing with here.  A simple matter of State the Obvious.

REGARDLESS what Locke or Rousseau or Allen Freaking West thinks about anything, "1854" DOES NOT and CAN NOT occur before 1826 or 1836.

Simple as that.


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## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 25, 2018)

Pogo said:


> emilynghiem said:
> 
> 
> > Pogo said:
> ...


 we have many primary sources, speeches newspaper articles letters inaugural addres none of which have any reason whatsoever to lie about the name of the party  showing that Jefferson and Madison formed the Republican Party not the Democratic Republic and party in 1793. Only the worlds greatest fool what argue with several different unrelated primary sources none of which have any reason whatsoever to lie about the name of the party Or its purpose to fight for conservative principles very limited government.


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## Pogo (Apr 25, 2018)

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> 2) Republican Party in 1854 may share same name with modern Republican Party but did not stand for limited government or against liberalism



This is correct; when the Republican Party was founded --- again that word is founded, meaning 'created for the first time' -- in 1854, it did not stand for limited government.  It stood for the opposite, the concept of doing big things with government, a legacy of the Whigs who did the same thing.  And it stood for Abolition of slavery, which the Whigs as a whole did not support, and which is a completely Liberal tenet, so it certainly didn't 'stand against' Liberalism, but rather for it.

But this is all moving your own goalposts --- the question ---- AGAIN --- is not "what a party stood for" at some date; it's *WHEN *IT WAS FOUNDED, which you have directly lied about here.  Moreover in this goalpost-moving you have just (a) admitted that the Republican Party _was indeed_ founded in 1854, and (b) admitted that political parties are not some fixed ideological point, but rather shift with the political winds as time goes on.

So at this point you owe me THIRTY thousand dollars.  Pay up.


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## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 25, 2018)

Pogo said:


> EdwardBaiamonte said:
> 
> 
> > 2) Republican Party in 1854 may share same name with modern Republican Party but did not stand for limited government or against liberalism
> ...


 The Republican Party stands for freedom from big liberal government was founded by Jefferson and Madison in 1792. The one that stands for gibberish was founded in 1854 but since freedom from Liberal government Is the very essence of America the 1792 Republican  Party is the most significant founding by far. Still confused?


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## Pogo (Apr 25, 2018)

EdwardBaiamonte said:


> Pogo said:
> 
> 
> > EdwardBaiamonte said:
> ...



So now you're going to claim there are TWO Republican Parties existing in parallel universes?


Linkie?

"Big liberal government" is an oxymoron.  Go buy a history book.  Feel free to deduct it from that $30k you owe me.


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## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 25, 2018)

Pogo said:


> So now you're going to claim there are TWO Republican Parties existing in parallel universes?


See why we say liberalism is based in pure ignorance? Youve seen numerous primary sources, unrelated primary sources with no reason to lie or obfuscate and yet you are totally befuddled by Jefferson and Madison’s founding of the Republican Party in 1793 to stand for freedom from big Liberal government. Do you feel the little treasonous to be a liberal? Do you know why our liberals spied for Stalin  and elected Obama and Bernie Sanders?


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## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 26, 2018)

Pogo said:


> So now you're going to claim there are TWO Republican Parties existing in parallel universes?
> .



Jefferson's Republican Party was long gone by the time of Lincoln. See why we say liberalism is based in pure ignorance?


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## EdwardBaiamonte (Apr 26, 2018)

Pogo said:


> "Big liberal government" is an oxymoron.



if true why is the liberal so afraid to tell us why? What do you learn from your fear?


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