# Jews trying to get Americans killed - as usual



## Indofred (Apr 22, 2014)

U.S. Supreme Court to review Jerusalem birthplace law | Reuters



> In 2003, Ari and Naomi Zivotofsky, the parents of U.S. citizen Menachem Zivotofsky, who was born in Jerusalem in 2002, filed a lawsuit seeking to enforce the law. They would like their son's passport to say he was born in Israel.



Basically, this daft bastard is trying to force America to see Jerusalem as part of Israel in official documents.
This, should it get through, will put Americans directly into the firing line.
What you have to ask is, what is this idiot doing in America?
He lives with you but is making a move that will kill your people.
Personally, I'd kick the bastard out.


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## Lipush (Apr 22, 2014)

This Thread reeks of typical Anti-Jewish Islamic hatred, Freddi.

But I guess you already know that.


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## editec (Apr 22, 2014)

WEll LIPS, I'd say it reeks of anti-Israeli sentiment.

It is possible, ya know, to object to much about the state of Israel and not hate Jews one bit.

Not that I am speaking on behalf of Indo, but I am simply this responding to the content of this particular post.

Personally I think as long Israel exists then Jerusalem ought to be an Israeli city.

But here I have one POV that probably will piss you off.

*I completely and totally reject the notion of duel citizenship for anybody anywhere anytime.*

The  Zivotofsky's need to get off the pot and declare their allegiance to either the USA or Israel.


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## toastman (Apr 22, 2014)

Indofred said:


> U.S. Supreme Court to review Jerusalem birthplace law | Reuters
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So you're saying the intention of these people is to get Americans killed?

I love it when Jew haters make fools of themselves, so the world can see how truly deranged their psyche really is..


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 22, 2014)

editec said:


> WEll LIPS, I'd say it reeks of anti-Israeli sentiment.
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> It is possible, ya know, to object to much about the state of Israel and not hate Jews one bit.
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The last I checked Jerusalem was in Palestine.

It looks like someone is trying to pull some shit.


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## Roudy (Apr 22, 2014)

Jerusalem has been part of and a symbol for Israel, for Jews and Judaism for the last 3000 years, ignoramus.


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## Roudy (Apr 22, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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You haven't been looking at a world map then.


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## Book of Jeremiah (Apr 22, 2014)

Indofred said:


> U.S. Supreme Court to review Jerusalem birthplace law | Reuters
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Of course they want their sons passport to say he was born in Israel!  Jerusalem is the capitol of Israel!   How is it that you do not understand that?   You do realize that the US Embassy to be built in Jerusalem is already approved by Congress?  Funds already put aside?  The land set aside?  Everything in order - just a simple move from Tel Aviv to its rightful place - Jerusalem - where it should have been built in the first place!  

We need to move forward with it right now.  It would settle this nonsense about Jerusalem not belonging to Israel.  Jerusalem is the Capitol of Israel.


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## Book of Jeremiah (Apr 22, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Jerusalem has been part of and a symbol for Israel, for Jews and Judaism for the last 3000 years, ignoramus.



Jerusalem is known as the city of King David.  How could anyone not know the history of Jerusalem?  Jerusalem belongs to the Jews.  All of it.


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 22, 2014)

Roudy said:


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I have. West Jerusalem is west of the green line which specifically does not define any territory. East Jerusalem is definitely inside Israeli occupied Palestinian territory.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Apr 22, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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In other words "Jerusalem is *not *in Palestine."  You certainly have trouble typing the word Israel don't you.  What happens, does you pc freeze or something like that when you type it?


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## jillian (Apr 22, 2014)

editec said:


> WEll LIPS, I'd say it reeks of anti-Israeli sentiment.
> 
> It is possible, ya know, to object to much about the state of Israel and not hate Jews one bit.



actually, no. it's not.

you can object to certain things... but not its existence.

unless of course you're objecting to every muslim state and to the terroriss. 

but he isn't.

and you might want to take a look at this... since anti-semites pour all their angst into anti-Israel rants. (not you... the o/p and its friends)

http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/40258.htm


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 22, 2014)

Sweet_Caroline said:


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Show me where any of Jerusalem is in Israel.


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## Roudy (Apr 22, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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Muslims have ZERO claim to Jerusalem.  Jerusalem has,mis, and will always be a Jewish city and the center of the Jewish faith.


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## guno (Apr 22, 2014)

As I Jew I belong to this organisation , being anti Israel in their policies does not make one antisemitic

I lost 4 relatives in the shoa

Israel/Palestine 101 | Jewish Voice for Peace


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## toastman (Apr 22, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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Does not define territory? Lol again with this shit.
The land is in Israel proper, therefore it is Israeli Land.

You're whole 'Israel never acquired land' crap was something you made up, remember?

Where is Tel Aviv Tinmore, answer that.. Israel or Palestine?


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## jillian (Apr 22, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> I have. West Jerusalem is west of the green line which specifically does not define any territory. East Jerusalem is definitely inside Israeli occupied Palestinian territory.



according to whom?

you?

lol


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## jillian (Apr 22, 2014)

toastman said:


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he can't count to 10. geography is beyond his ken totally.


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## toastman (Apr 22, 2014)

jillian said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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> > I have. West Jerusalem is west of the green line which specifically does not define any territory. East Jerusalem is definitely inside Israeli occupied Palestinian territory.
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Tinmore loves to make up his own history.


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## Roudy (Apr 22, 2014)

toastman said:


> jillian said:
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And his own world maps.


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## guno (Apr 22, 2014)

guno said:


> As I Jew I belong to this organisation , being anti Israel in their policies does not make one antisemitic
> 
> I lost 4 relatives in the shoa
> 
> Israel/Palestine 101 | Jewish Voice for Peace


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## jillian (Apr 22, 2014)

toastman said:


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liars have a bad habit when it comes to doing things like that.


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## jillian (Apr 22, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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you're insane aren't you?


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## jillian (Apr 22, 2014)

guno said:


> As I Jew I belong to this organisation , being anti Israel in their policies does not make one antisemitic
> 
> I lost 4 relatives in the shoa
> 
> Israel/Palestine 101 | Jewish Voice for Peace



peace would be lovely. and i'd be a loud voice in favor of it if they didn't keep firing missiles into Israel and if their every discussion didn't end with "Israel is not a legitimate nation".

you need someone on the other side who doesn't put their kids in front of their munitions so they can tell the press the bad jews are blowing up children.

and while i'm with you on most issues, can you really say someone whowon't acknowledge Israel's right to exist (while genuflecting to the dozen muslim nations) isn't an anti-Semite?


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## Roudy (Apr 22, 2014)

guno said:


> guno said:
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[ame=http://youtube.com/watch?v=cHq25tnZoFs]Son of Hamas Leader: The God of Islam Suffers from Split Personality; Muhammad - a False Prophet - YouTube[/ame]


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 22, 2014)

Roudy said:


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> 2. The Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary,...
> 
> The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949



So, if that is not a political or territorial boundary, where is Israel?


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## Roudy (Apr 22, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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Jerusalem is still part of Israel, Sorry.

And listed here as an official Israeli city, actually the most populated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Israeli_cities


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## toastman (Apr 22, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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Those armistice agreements were signed BEFORE the agreements with Jordan and Egypt!
How many fuckn times does this have to be told to you Tinmore.

Israel Map - Israel Satellite Image - Physical - Political

This is a current map of Israel with the INTERNATIONAL BOUNDARIES CLEARLY MARKED.
I've already shown you the U.N treaties between Israel-Egypt and Israel-Jordan that clearly tell us about the INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED BOUNDARIES!!!
The map you just posted is an old one. 

STOP LYING


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## RoccoR (Apr 22, 2014)

_et al,_

I guess it can be confusing.

*&#8730;* Prime Minister's Office

3 Kaplans Street
Kiryat Ben Gurion 
Jerusalem 91919
Israel	
+972 2 6705555
Prime Ministers Office Jerusalem
PMO.gov.il​ 
*&#8730;*  Presidentof the State of Israel

Hanassi Street
Kiryat Ben Gurion 
Jerusalem 92188
Israel	
+972 2 6707211
President Office Jerusalem
president.gov.il​ 
*&#8730;*  Knesset, Israeli Parliament

3 Kaplans Street
Kiryat Ben Gurion 
Jerusalem 91950
Israel	
+972 2 6753333
Knesset Parliament of Israel
knesset.gov.il​
Most Respectfully,
R


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## Roudy (Apr 22, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> _et al,_
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Yup  ain't that funny.  The center of the Israeli govt. Isn't even in Israel, according to Tinmore.  These Pali supporters have serious issues dealing with reality.


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## proudveteran06 (Apr 22, 2014)

editec said:


> WEll LIPS, I'd say it reeks of anti-Israeli sentiment.
> 
> It is possible, ya know, to object to much about the state of Israel and not hate Jews one bit.
> 
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You reject duel citizenship for " anybody anytime ". LOL  Tell that to Muslims who are coming over here. . Another hypocrite exposed.


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## proudveteran06 (Apr 22, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> editec said:
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Jerusalem was in " Palestine?" ( Which doesn't exist) Does that include all of Jerusalem or just E. Jerusalem  . Just more proof they are not going to stop at the " 67 Borders" we hear so much about.  


It's obvious that someone is trying to pull some Shit


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## proudveteran06 (Apr 22, 2014)

toastman said:


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You won't receive an answer from the Palestinian . Consider the source.


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## montelatici (Apr 22, 2014)

proudveteran06 said:


> editec said:
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Many, if not most, Muslim countries do not permit dual citizenship, so once naturalized as a citizen of the United States, the Muslim would lose his other citizenship.  Plus the naturalization oath for U.S. citizenship states in part:

"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen..."

Should a Muslim somehow be from a Muslim country that allows dual citizenship he could/would lose his U.S. citizenship if he acted on it, i.e. voted, joined the Army etc.

Just as a note:

"Section 401 (e) of the 1940 Nationality Act provides that a U.S. 
citizen, whether by birth or naturalization, "shall lose his [U.S.] 
nationality by...voting in a political election in a foreign state."

Read more at LiveLeak.com - Dual citizenship has allowed Israeli citizens to run the highest offices of government in the United States of America

However, the courts have allowed dual citizenship if the other citizenship is Israeli,
based on the Beys Afroyim Supreme Court case of 1967.


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## Sally (Apr 22, 2014)

montelatici said:


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There are many dual citizens here in America, and I am willing to bet that there are many groups of dual citizens who are greater in mumber than you will find Israelis.  However, it appears that for some Muslims living there, they have a different pledge of allegiance.  Hmm, I wonder if the Muslims in Great Britain have the same pledge of allegiance.

Islam is my life... Jihad is my spirit... I will die to establish Islam."  from the Muslim Student Association pledge of allegiance.


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## CMike (Apr 22, 2014)

Indofred said:


> U.S. Supreme Court to review Jerusalem birthplace law | Reuters
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Earth to nutso, earth to nutso.

Jerusalem is Israel's capital city.


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## CMike (Apr 22, 2014)

guno said:


> As I Jew I belong to this organisation , being anti Israel in their policies does not make one antisemitic
> 
> I lost 4 relatives in the shoa
> 
> Israel/Palestine 101 | Jewish Voice for Peace



Then you should know better than acting so stupidly.


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## Roudy (Apr 22, 2014)

montelatici said:


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Does anybody gives a rat's ass what Muslim countries do or don't?  I would say that doing exactly the opposite of what Muslim countries do is usually a pretty good indication you're on the civilized side. 

Again, not an ounce of truth in anything this false propagandist says, as dual citizenship (and even triple citizenship) is totally allowed in the US.  How incredibly ignorant can a person be?

Dual Nationality

The concept of dual nationality means that a person is a national of two countries at the same time. Each country has its own nationality laws based on its own policy. Persons may have dual nationality by automatic operation of different laws rather than by choice. For example, a child born in a foreign country to U.S. national parents may be both a U.S. national and a national of the country of birth.

A U.S. national may acquire foreign nationality by marriage, or a person naturalized as a U.S. national may not lose the nationality of the country of birth. *U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one nationality or another. Also, a person who is automatically granted another nationality does not risk losing U.S. nationality. *


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## Roudy (Apr 22, 2014)

CMike said:


> Indofred said:
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## montelatici (Apr 22, 2014)

Roudy said:


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US passports do not indicate city of birth for the foreign born.  Only the country.  Hope this helps.


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## Lipush (Apr 22, 2014)

editec said:


> WEll LIPS, I'd say it reeks of anti-Israeli sentiment.
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> It is possible, ya know, to object to much about the state of Israel and not hate Jews one bit.
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He didn't write "Israel", he wrote *"JEWS *trying to get Americans killed".

So don't smart-ass me.

I learned how to read English on second grade


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## Lipush (Apr 22, 2014)

guno said:


> As I Jew I belong to this organisation , being anti Israel in their policies does not make one antisemitic
> 
> I lost 4 relatives in the shoa
> 
> Israel/Palestine 101 | Jewish Voice for Peace



Want a cookie?

I lost 15 aunts and 3 great grandparents.


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## Roudy (Apr 22, 2014)

montelatici said:


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Did you read what Indo Muslim said?  He said "bastard is trying to force America to see Jerusalem as part of Israel in official documents." 

Next time try being relevant in your response.  Hope this helps.


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## Sally (Apr 22, 2014)

montelatici said:


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It would be interesting to know in which country Haniya and the rest of the Boiler Room gang have citizenship.  Can they be posting exclusively from Great Britain or is the Boiler Room gang from all over Europe and perhaps even in the U.S. which meets in various forums to demonize the Israelis while their buddies are busy murdering people all over the rest of the Middle East as well as the rest of the Muslim world.


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## Phoenall (Apr 22, 2014)

Indofred said:


> U.S. Supreme Court to review Jerusalem birthplace law | Reuters
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 What a load of old BULLSHIT. There is already in place a law that says that Jerusalem can be used as a place of birth for a Jew, so why haven't the ISLAMONAZI TERROISTS attacked America over that and killed Americans.


 It is you and your stupid ANTISEMITIC NAZI JEW HATREDS that is putting American lives in danger.


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## Phoenall (Apr 22, 2014)

editec said:


> WEll LIPS, I'd say it reeks of anti-Israeli sentiment.
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> It is possible, ya know, to object to much about the state of Israel and not hate Jews one bit.
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They are not asking for dual citizenship, just that the nation Israel be added to the persons passport. 
 Like you I reject dual nationality, and the muslims that skirt the law by having more than one nationality should lose that of the nation in the west.


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## Phoenall (Apr 22, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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 So is Israel, Jordan and Syria


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## Phoenall (Apr 22, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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 Show were since 1948 any part of Jerusalem was in the nation of Palestine, and while yiu are at it show were the UN rescinded the resolution making Jerusalem INTERNATIONAL and belonging to no nation.


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## montelatici (Apr 22, 2014)

Phoenall said:


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So should all the American Jews that have Israeli citizenship lose their U.S. citizenship.

By the way, this is interesting:

"So, you might ask, are there any other dual Israel-American citizens who hold US government positions that could compromise American security? Yes. Consider the following list that I obtained on the web:


Michael Mukasey
Recently appointed as US Attorney General. Mukasey also was the judge in the litigation between developer Larry Silverstein and several insurance companies arising from the destruction of the World Trade Center.

Michael Chertoff
Former Assistant Attorney General for the Criminal Division, at the Justice Department; now head of Homeland Security.

Richard Perle
One of Bush's foreign policy advisors, he is the chairman of the Pentagon's Defense Policy Board. A very likely Israeli government agent, Perle was expelled from Senator Henry Jackson's office in the 1970's after the National Security Agency (NSA) caught him passing Highly-Classified (National Security) documents to the Israeli Embassy. He later worked for the Israeli weapons firm, Soltam. Perle came from one the above mentioned pro-Israel thinktanks, the AEI. Perle is one of the leading pro-Israeli fanatics leading this Iraq war mongering within the administration and now in the media.

Paul Wolfowitz
Former Deputy Defense Secretary, and member of Perle's Defense Policy Board, in the Pentagon. Wolfowitz is a close associate of Perle, and reportedly has close ties to the Israeli military. His sister lives in Israel. Wolfowitz came from the above mentioned Jewish thinktank, JINSA. Wolfowitz was the number two leader within the administration behind this Iraq war mongering. He later was appointed head of the World Bank but resigned under pressure from World Bank members over a scandal involving his misuse of power.


Douglas Feith
Under Secretary of Defense and Policy Advisor at the Pentagon. He is a close associate of Perle and served as his Special Counsel. Like Perle and the others, Feith is a pro-Israel extremist, who has advocated anti-Arab policies in the past. He is closely associated with the extremist group, the Zionist Organization of America, which even attacks Jews that don't agree with its extremist views. Feith frequently speaks at ZOA conferences. Feith runs a small law firm, Feith and Zell, which only has one International office, in Israel. The majority of their legal work is representing Israeli interests. His firm's own website stated, prior to his appointment, that Feith "represents Israeli Armaments Manufacturer." Feith basically represents the Israeli War Machine. Feith also came from the Jewish thinktank JINSA. Feith, like Perle and Wolfowitz, are campaigning hard for this Israeli proxy war against Iraq.

Lawrence (Larry) Franklin
The former Defense Intelligence Agency analyst with expertise in Iranian policy issues who worked in the office of Undersecretary of Defense for Policy Douglas Feith and reported directly to Feith's deputy, William Luti, was sentenced January 20, 2006, "to more than 12 years in prison for giving classified information to an Israeli diplomat" and members of the pro-Israel lobbying group American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC).

Franklin will "remain free while the government continues with the wider case" and his "prison time could be sharply reduced in return for his help in prosecuting" former AIPAC members Steven J. Rosen and Keith Weissman, [who] are scheduled to go on trial in April [2006]. Franklin admitted that he met periodically with Rosen and Weissman between 2002 and 2004 and discussed classified information, including information about potential attacks on U.S. troops in Iraq. Rosen and Weissman would later share what they learned with reporters and Israeli officials." (source: sourcewatch.com).

Edward Luttwak
Member of the National Security Study Group of the Department of Defence at the Pentagon. Luttwak is reportedly an Israeli citizen and has taught in Israel. He frequently writes for Israeli and pro-Israeli newspapers and journals. Luttwak is an Israeli extremist whose main theme in many of his articles is the necessity of the U.S. waging war against Iraq and Iran.

Henry Kissinger
One of many Pentagon Advisors, Kissinger sits on the Pentagon's Defense Policy Board under Perle. For detailed information about Kissinger's evil past, read Seymour Hersch's book (Price of Power: Kissinger in the Nixon White House). Kissinger likely had a part in the Watergate crimes, Southeast Asia mass murders (Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos), Installing Chilean mass murdering dictator Pinochet, Operation Condor's mass killings in South America, and more recently served as Serbia's Ex-Dictator Slobodan Milosevic's Advisor. He consistently advocated going to war against Iraq. Kissinger is the Ariel Sharon of the U.S. Unfortunately, President Bush nominated Kissinger as chairman of the September 11 investigating commission. It's like picking a bank robber to investigate a fraud scandal. He later declined this job under enormous protests.

Dov Zakheim
Dov Zakheim is an ordained rabbi and reportedly holds Israeli citizenship. Zakheim attended Jew's College in London and became an ordained Orthodox Jewish Rabbi in 1973. He was adjunct professor at New York's Jewish Yeshiva University. Zakheim is close to the Israeli lobby.

Dov Zakheim is also a member of the Council on Foreign Relations and in 2000 a co-author of the Project for the New American Century's position paper, Rebuilding America's Defenses, advocating the necessity for a Pearl-Harbor-like incident to mobilize the country into war with its enemies, mostly Middle Eastern Muslim nations.

He was appointed by Bush as Pentagon Comptroller from May 4, 2001 to March 10, 2004. At that time he was unable to explain the disappearance of $1 trillion dollars. Actually, nearly three years earlier, Donald Rumsfeld announced on September 10, 2001 that an audit discovered $2.3 trillion was also missing from the Pentagon books. That story, as mentioned, was buried under 9-11's rubble. The two sums disappeared on Zakheim's watch. We can only guess where that cash went.

Despite these suspicions, on May 6, 2004, Zakheim took a lucrative position at Booz Allen Hamilton, one of the most prestigious strategy consulting firms in the world. One of its clients then was Blessed Relief, a charity said to be a front for Osama bin Laden. Booz, Allen & Hamilton then also worked closely with DARPA, the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, which is the research arm of the Department of Defense.

Judicial Inc's bio of Dov tells us Zakheim is a dual Israeli/American citizen and has been tracking the halls of US government for 25 years, casting defense policy and influence on Presidents Reagan, Clinton, Bush Sr. and Bush Jr. Judicial Inc points out that most of Israel's armaments were gotten thanks to him. Squads of US F-16 and F-15 were classified military surplus and sold to Israel at a fraction of their value.


Kenneth Adelman
One of many Pentagon Advisors, Adelman also sits on the Pentagon's Defense Policy Board under Perle, and is another extremist pro-Israel advisor, who supported going to war against Iraq. Adelman frequently is a guest on Fox News, and often expresses extremist and often ridiculus anti-Arab and anti-Muslim views. Through his racism or ignorance, he actually called Arabs "anti-Semitic" on Fox News (11/28/2001), when he could have looked it up in the dictionary to find out that Arabs by definition are Semites.

I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby
Vice President Dick Cheney's ex-Chief of Staff. As chief pro-Israel Jewish advisor to Cheney, it helps explains why Cheney is so gun-ho to invade Iran. Libby is longtime associate of Wolfowitz. Libby was also a lawyer for convicted felon and Israeli spy Marc Rich, whom Clinton pardoned, in his last days as president. Libby was recently found guilty of lying to Federal investigators in the Valerie Plame affair, in which Plame, a covert CIA agent, was exposed for political revenge by the Bush administration following her husband's revelations about the lies leading to the Iraq War.

Robert Satloff
U.S. National Security Council Advisor, Satloff was the executive director of the Israeli lobby's "think tank," Washington Institute for Near East Policy. Many of the Israeli lobby's "experts" come from this front group, like Martin Indyk.

Elliott Abrams
National Security Council Advisor. He previously worked at Washington-based "Think Tank" Ethics and Public Policy Center. During the Reagan Adminstration, Abrams was the Assistant Secretary of State, handling, for the most part, Latin American affairs. He played an important role in the Iran-Contra Scandal, which involved illegally selling U.S. weapons to Iran to fight Iraq, and illegally funding the contra rebels fighting to overthrow Nicaragua's Sandinista government. He also actively deceived three congressional committees about his involvement and thereby faced felony charges based on his testimony. Abrams pled guilty in 1991 to two misdemeanors and was sentenced to a year's probation and 100 hours of community service. A year later, former President Bush (Senior) granted Abrams a full pardon. He was one of the more hawkish pro-Israel Jews in the Reagan Administration's State Department.

Marc Grossman
Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs. He was Director General of the Foreign Service and Director of Human Resources at the Department of State. Grossman is one of many of the pro-Israel Jewish officials from the Clinton Administration that Bush has promoted to higher posts.

Richard Haass
Director of Policy Planning at the State Department and Ambassador at large. He is also Director of National Security Programs and Senior Fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR). He was one of the more hawkish pro-Israel Jews in the first Bush (Sr) Administration who sat on the National Security Council, and who consistently advocated going to war against Iraq. Haass is also a member of the Defense Department's National Security Study Group, at the Pentagon.

Robert Zoellick
U.S. Trade Representative, a cabinet-level position. He is also one of the more hawkish pro-Israel Jews in the Bush (Jr) Administration who advocated invading Iraq and occupying a portion of the country in order to set up a Vichy-style puppet government. He consistently advocates going to war against Iran.

Ari Fleischer
Ex- White House Spokesman for the Bush (Jr) Administration. Prominent in the Jewish community, some reports state that he holds Israeli citizenship. Fleischer is closely connected to the extremist Jewish group called the Chabad Lubavitch Hasidics, who follow the Qabala, and hold very extremist and insulting views of non-Jews. Fleischer was the co-president of Chabad's Capitol Jewish Forum. He received the Young Leadership Award from the American Friends of Lubavitch in October, 2001.

James Schlesinger
One of many Pentagon Advisors, Schlesinger also sits on the Pentagon's Defense Policy Board under Perle and is another extremist pro-Israel advisor, who supported going to war against Iraq. Schlesinger is also a commissioner of the Defense Department's National Security Study Group, at the Pentagon.

David Frum
White House speechwriter behind the "Axis of Evil" label. He lumped together all the lies and accusations against Iraq for Bush to justify the war.

Joshua Bolten
White House Deputy Chief of Staff, Bolten was previously a banker, former legislative aide, and prominent in the Jewish community.

John Bolton
Former UN Representative and Under-Secretary of State for Arms Control and International Security. Bolton is also a Senior Advisor to President Bush. Prior to this position, Bolton was Senior Vice President of the above mentioned pro-Israel thinktank, AEI. He recently (October 2002) accused Syria of having a nuclear program, so that they can attack Syria after Iraq. He must have forgotten that Israel has 400 nuclear warheads, some of which are thermonuclear weapons (according to a recent U.S. Air Force report).

David Wurmser
Special Assistant to John Bolton (above), the under-secretary for arms control and international security. Wurmser also worked at the AEI with Perle and Bolton. His wife, Meyrav Wurmser, along with Colonel Yigal Carmon, formerly of Israeli military intelligence, co-founded the Middle East Media Research Institute (Memri),a Washington-based Israeli outfit which distributes articles translated from Arabic newspapers portraying Arabs in a bad light.

Eliot Cohen
Member of the Pentagon's Defense Policy Board under Perle and is another extremist pro-Israel advisor. Like Adelman, he often expresses extremist and often ridiculus anti-Arab and anti-Muslim views. More recently, he wrote an opinion article in the Wall Street Journal openly admitting his rascist hatred of Islam claiming that Islam should be the enemy, not terrorism.

Mel Sembler
President of the Export-Import Bank of the United States. A Prominent Jewish Republican and Former National Finance Chairman of the Republican National Committee. The Export-Import Bank facilitates trade relationships between U.S. businesses and foreign countries, specifically those with financial problems.

Steve Goldsmith
Senior Advisor to the President, and Bush's Jewish domestic policy advisor. He also served as liaison in the White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives (White House OFBCI) within the Executive Office of the President. He was the former mayor of Indianapolis. He is also friends with Israeli Jerusalem Mayor Ehud Olmert and often visits Israel to coach mayors on privatization initiatives.

Adam Goldman
White House's Special Liaison to the Jewish Community.

Joseph Gildenhorn
Bush Campaign's Special Liaison to the Jewish Community. He was the DC finance chairman for the Bush campaign, as well as campaign coordinator, and former ambassador to Switzerland.

Christopher Gersten
Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary, Administration for Children and Families at HHS. Gersten was the former Executive Director of the Republican Jewish Coalition, Husband of Labor Secretary.

Mark Weinberger
Assistant Secretary of Housing and Urban Development for Public Affairs.

Samuel Bodman
Deputy Secretary of Commerce. He was the Chairman and CEO of Cabot Corporation in Boston, Massachusetts.

Bonnie Cohen
Under Secretary of State for Management.

Ruth Davis
Director of Foreign Service Institute, who reports to the Office of Under Secretary for Management. This Office is responsible for training all Department of State staff (including ambassadors).

Daniel Kurtzer
Ambassador to Israel.

Cliff Sobel
Ambassador to the Netherlands.

Stuart Bernstein
Ambassador to Denmark.

Nancy Brinker
Ambassador to Hungary

Frank Lavin
Ambassador to Singapore.

Ron Weiser
Ambassador to Slovakia.

Mel Sembler
Ambassador to Italy.

Martin Silverstein
Ambassador to Uruguay.

Lincoln Bloomfield
Assistant Secretary of State for Political Military Affairs.

Jay Lefkowitz
Deputy Assistant to the President and Director of the Domestic Policy Council.

Ken Melman
White House Political Director.

Brad Blakeman
White House Director of Scheduling.

I don't know about you, but dual citizenship is fine with me for an ordinary citizen. But if you hold an official position that demands that you put American interests above all else -- if you should look transparent and fair to the rest of the world regarding your formation of Middle East foreign policies, then this is a dangerous trend. Even if there were no pro-Israeli agenda, the fact that decision makers have a bias or an allegiance to one of the parties involved in the current conflict should have raised red flags long before now.

If you think we're being unfair here, ask yourself: How you would react to the Head of Homeland Security if he or she were a dual national with citizenship in Iran, Lebanon or Saudi Arabia? Ask yourself why you don't feel the same about Israeli dual citizenship. Then you will understand how powerful the Israeli lobby has been in "adjusting" your acceptance of their special status."

https://www.facebook.com/notes/we-a...ith-israeli-dual-citizenship-/175479365845092


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## Phoenall (Apr 22, 2014)

guno said:


> As I Jew I belong to this organisation , being anti Israel in their policies does not make one antisemitic
> 
> I lost 4 relatives in the shoa
> 
> Israel/Palestine 101 | Jewish Voice for Peace





 watched the first 30 seconds and saw the ISLAMONAZI lie so turned it off. The people were Jews who lived in Palestine, it was not just arab muslims that lived there. So they had as much legal right to a NATIONAL HOME as any arab muslim did, and they had as much right to have it were they lived in Palestine. They also had the right to invite their relatives to come and help them set up this NATIONAL HOME and defend it from itinerant arab muslim travellers. You are not anti Israel you are anti JUDAISM and anti NATIONAL HOME, no doubt you are one of the extremist Jews or even an ISLAMONAZI PROPAGANDIST


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## Phoenall (Apr 22, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...






 All of the yellow above by treaty and ownership.


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## toastman (Apr 22, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> guno said:
> 
> 
> > As I Jew I belong to this organisation , being anti Israel in their policies does not make one antisemitic
> ...



That video was so full of shit...


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## Phoenall (Apr 22, 2014)

montelatici said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > editec said:
> ...






 Most muslims have at least 3 passports from different countries so they can engage in terrorism against the country that invited them to live there. During a raid on a large inner city mosque in the UK over 100 passports were found hidden 

Terrorist weapons seized in Mosque raid | Mail Online

 Police also found more than 100 stolen or forged passports and identity documents, laminating equipment, credit cards and cheque books hidden under rugs and concealed above ceilings. One officer recalled pulling down part of a ceiling to find passports raining down on him.


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## Phoenall (Apr 22, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > editec said:
> ...






 If that is the actual Law in the USA then yes, as it is law in the UK and can result in lost British citizenship as many muslims are now finding out.


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## Phoenall (Apr 22, 2014)

toastman said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
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> > guno said:
> ...





 The opening line said it all, and the group is not even in Israel but the USA.


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## Roudy (Apr 22, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
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> > editec said:
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Oh look, the IslamoNazi Jew hater made a list of "wanted Jews" in true Nazi fashion.  Ha ha ha.

Amin Al Husseini: Nazi Father of Jihad, Al Qaeda, Arafat, Saddam Hussein and the Muslim Brotherhood - Tell The Children The Truth - Homepage


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## montelatici (Apr 22, 2014)

Roudy said:


> montelatici said:
> 
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> > Phoenall said:
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No, it is a Facebook page that claims to list American citizens in high U.S. Government positions that are also citizens of Israel. Most Americans do not approve, I can tell you.


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## Mojo2 (Apr 22, 2014)

Indofred said:


> U.S. Supreme Court to review Jerusalem birthplace law | Reuters
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You want to keep America out of it because your ilk will have a tougher time fighting America than just fighting the IDF.

What Americans need to understand, however, is that we are ALREADY on the Islamist's menu for conquest but we are being 'spared' until such time as the Islamists are ready to fight us on THEIR terms.

And the Islamic stealth infiltration of America is already underway.


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## Sally (Apr 22, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
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Since you are not a citizen of America (unless you happen to be one of the Iranian gang posting now), how would you know what Americans would approve of when it comes to people in the government.  Do you think Americans want Muslims like you holding any position in our government, especially when they see how your brethren don't even have a problem murdering their own en masse?  I am willing to bet that if Haniya and gang were living in the U.S. and went to the Israeli embassies and consulates, they would find that most of the American Jews do not hold citizenship also in Israel.  Now when the Armenians here were voting for a new president, the lines were around the corner in Burbank and Los Angeles.  And let us not forget how happy the Iraqis living here traveled hundreds of miles to a polling place to vote for the candidates of their choice running in Iraq.


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## Roudy (Apr 22, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
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> > montelatici said:
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"You" provided a list of Jews in true Nazi fashion.  "You" can tell jackshit.  

"Most" Americans don't think highly of Palestinians or Islam.


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## Mojo2 (Apr 22, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Sweet_Caroline said:
> ...



Yeppers.



> Part of the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine, which the Jews of Mandatory Palestine accepted and the Arabs of Mandatory Palestine and neighboring states rejected, was that Jerusalem would be a corpus separatum, meaning that the United Nations would assume responsibility for the city and it would not be a part of either the proposed Arab or Jewish states.
> 
> Israel argued that the partition plan regarding Jerusalem was "null and void" due to the UN's "active relinquishing of responsibility in a critical hour" when the UN did not act to protect the city.[43][44][45]
> 
> ...



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_for_Jerusalem_(1948)


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## montelatici (Apr 22, 2014)

Sally said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
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"Since you are not a citizen of America (unless you happen to be one of the Iranian gang posting now), how would you know what Americans would approve of when it comes to people in the government."

Of course I am an American citizen.  What gave you the idea I wasn't. 

I am basing statement regarding Americans not happy with dual citizenship on a recent Rasmussen Poll where only 34% of Americans approved of dual citizenship, 54% were against and 12% undecided. 

*"Rasmussen Poll: 54 Percent Reject Dual Citizenship"*

"A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey shows that 54% of voters dont think potential U.S. citizens should be allowed to maintain dual citizenship. Another 12% are undecided."

Rasmussen Poll: 54 Percent Reject Dual Citizenship | VDARE.com


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## Roudy (Apr 22, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Sally said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
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So?  It would be natural for citizens of any country to dislike somebody having a second nationality.  I'm surprised it's not higher.  

But why did you only post a list of dual nationality Jews, in true Nazi fashion?


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## jillian (Apr 22, 2014)

Roudy said:


> So?  It would be natural for citizens of any country to dislike somebody having a second nationality.  I'm surprised it's not higher.
> 
> But why did you only post a list of dual nationality Jews, in true Nazi fashion?



because he's posting from VDARE.... a white nationalist site.

someone should tell him they don't like him either.


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## Sally (Apr 22, 2014)

Roudy said:


> montelatici said:
> 
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> > Sally said:
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Say, Roudy if the one from the Boiler Room has taken its turn and claiming it is an American citizen, it must be one of the Iranian gang.  God only knows from where the rest of the Boiler Room gang is located.  Probably a lot of them are in Great Brain.  Meanwhile, Roudy, a lot of people who have at least one Irish grandparent are now applying for citizenship with Ireland also (Italian-Americans say they are doing it too.   In fact, when I used to read the Bronx Message Board, the Irish-Americans and Italian-American posters were telling the others how to go about it.  Even my husband was kidding around a couple of weeks ago saying maybe he should apply for dual citizenship with Canada since his great great uncle was the first French speaking prime minister of Canada.  Do you think that anyone here in America really cares what these Irish-Americans or Italian-Americans are doing with regard to dual citizenship.  It is only the Islmofascists like Haniya and the rest of the Boiler Room who are constantly bringing up this Israeli dual citizenship baloney.  One thing we know -- our Intelligence Agencies are not picking up Jews with dual citizenship, but Muslims living here who were planning to commit an atrocity upon American citizens.


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## proudveteran06 (Apr 22, 2014)

montelatici said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > editec said:
> ...




  I am referring to THIS Country denying dual citizenship to Anybody including Muslims who IMMIGRATE here


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## proudveteran06 (Apr 22, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...





http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Line_(Israel)


While the line is only an armistice demarcation line,[9] in practice it is used to differentiate between those areas which are administered as part of Israel, and the areas outside it, which are administered by the Israeli military or the Palestinian Authority.[10][11] The extended municipality of Jerusalem constitutes one exception to this: although the parts occupied by Jordan until 1967 fall outside the Green Line, 


   Too bad the Palestinian doesn't know how to read; Everybody except him considers W. Jerusalem part of Israel       

        His map doesn't show Jerusalem to be in " palestine" either


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## Phoenall (Apr 23, 2014)

Roudy said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...






 "MOST" everybody else feels the same way, and moves are underway to reverse Islamic migration to the west. The first signs of trouble in the UK and the muslims demand round the clock armed protection. Now the police are refusing and just driving past a couple of times a day.


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## pbel (Apr 23, 2014)

Lipush said:


> This Thread reeks of typical Anti-Jewish Islamic hatred, Freddi.
> 
> But I guess you already know that.



It reeks of Israeli theft of a Nation, everybody can see that except the Emperor's of Zion.


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## montelatici (Apr 23, 2014)

Roudy said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Sally said:
> ...



Because it is illegal for U.S. Government officials to be dual nationals, except for Israeli as the second citizenship.  I posted the court case that decided that.


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## Phoenall (Apr 23, 2014)

pbel said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > This Thread reeks of typical Anti-Jewish Islamic hatred, Freddi.
> ...





 What legitimate nation has been stolen then, as no one but mind warped muslims can see any.


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## proudveteran06 (Apr 23, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> pbel said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...




"  palestine" which never existed ( And never will )


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## toastman (Apr 23, 2014)

pbel said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > This Thread reeks of typical Anti-Jewish Islamic hatred, Freddi.
> ...



Peebel with his stupid responses .

How full of shit you are Peebel... How full of SHIT...


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## montelatici (Apr 23, 2014)

proudveteran06 said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > pbel said:
> ...




Palestine was Palestine for over 2,000 years. Since 135 AD.

Palestina en el Imperio Romano


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## Sally (Apr 23, 2014)

montelatici said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



When the Muslims left the Saudi Peninsula and invaded those surrounding countries, they were busy forcing people to convert to Islam and killed many who refused.  The descendents of those who were lucky to survive can't even practice their religious beliefs in peace now.  Look at what happens to the Copts, Assyrians and Chaldeans even now in this modern world.  However, the Boiler Room Gang doesn't care what happens to these people  in the Middle  East.  It is more important for them to demonize Israel, a tiny, tiny piece of land compared to the huge Muslim Middle East and a place where the Arabs have it so much better than in the rest of the Middle East.


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 23, 2014)

proudveteran06 said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



This one does. Palestine's international boundaries are marked: +-+-+-+-+

Don't be confused by the solid lines and colors. Those are just from the failed partition plan.


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## Hossfly (Apr 23, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...


Some people think it's in Florida. There's a big sign over the fireplace in a restaurant there that says: *"We wandered in the desert for 40 years, then we found Boca Raton".*


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## montelatici (Apr 23, 2014)

Sally said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...



Most of us just want justice for the Palestinians.  Most of us neutrals, particularly us Christians, are very concerned about the treatment of Christians in Muslim majority societies. This does not prevent us from being concerned with the Christian and Muslim Palestinians.

When Constantine made Christianity the religion of the Empire people were forced to adopt Christianity by force.  

Contrary to popular belief the citizens/subjects of the Roman Empire (Byzantine) were not very happy with Roman rule and converted to Islam without needing to be forced. 

I realize you probably eschew academic peer reviewed historical works, but this dissertation (or thesis) from Yale is interesting.  I've posted excerpts and the link is below if you want to learn something instead of repeating propaganda.

I find this very telling and surprising:

"There were clear fiscal incentives *not to encourage the spread of Islam. *As we have seen,  Quran itself had laid down that the unbelievers should pay taxes, called jizya, which was originally a generic name for tribute of all sorts. By the period in the late eighth century when the Muslim fiscal system reached its maturity, it had been established that the dhimmis should pay a poll-tax. All landowners were now obliged to pay the kharaj or land tax but the dhimmis suffered under extra fiscal burdens."

Here is another excerpt:

"The nature of the early Muslim conquests in the Middle East made forcible conversion 
almost impossible. The Muslim armies were comparatively small, between ten and twenty 
thousand are possible estimates for the numbers in the armies which conquered Syria and Iraq, probably fewer in Egypt and Iran. To be sure, more Arab Muslims emigrated from Arabia to settle in the newly conquered areas but even so the Arab Muslims were a small minority, perhaps 10% of the population of Egypt and perhaps 20% of the most densely settled area, Iraq. In these circumstances, forcing unwilling people to convert was out of the question. According to the traditional accounts, much of the Arab conquests was achieved by treaty and we have texts of many of these agreement. Here, for example is the treaty that was made by the Caliph Umar with Sophronius, Patriarch of Jerusalem, probably 638: 

In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate. This is the assurance of safety 
(am&#257;n) which the servant of God Umar, the Commander of the Faithful, has given to the people of Jerusalem.. He has given them an assurance of safety for themselves, for their property, their churches, their crosses, the sick and healthy of the city and for all the rituals which belong to their religion. Their churches will not be inhabited by Muslims and will not be destroyed. Neither they, nor the land on which they stand, nor their cross, nor their property will be damaged. They will not be forcibly converted. No Jew will live with them in Jerusalem. The people of Jerusalem must pay the poll-tax like the people of other cities and must expel the Byzantines and the robbers. Those of the people of Jerusalem who want to leave with the Byzantines, take their property and................"

http://www.yale.edu/macmillan/rps/kennedy.pdf


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## toastman (Apr 23, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



Thise are NOT PALESTINES BORDERS. The map shows proposed borders.
And if it is Palestines borders, than why can't you find a current map of Palestine that clearly marks the international boundaries, like I have dine with Israel??

Answer: because it doesn't exist


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## toastman (Apr 23, 2014)

Hossfly said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Just to show you how little Tinmore knows, he is saying that the Armistice lines are still in effect, when they were signed wayyyy before Israels new agreements with Jordan and Egypt. These agreements were actually  U.N written treaties that clearly tell us about Israels INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED BORDERS WITH EGYPT (1979) and JORDAN (1994).

He keeps bringing up the armistice agreements as if they have any merit today. 
And even after I prove him wrong, he still spews the same armistice bullshit.


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## RoccoR (Apr 23, 2014)

[MENTION=15726]Hossfly[/MENTION], [MENTION=21837]P F Tinmore[/MENTION], [MENTION=36154]Roudy[/MENTION],  _et al,_

This is so dumb.



Hossfly said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

First off, while an Armistice Line [Para 1(5) RES 2625] is not a permanent boundary, it is respected exactly the same.

Secondly, the 1949 Armistice Agreement between Israel and Egypt were made mute and was superseded by the Peace Treaty of 1979.  



			
				Treaty of Peace between the Arab Republic of Egypt and the State of Israel said:
			
		

> *Article II*
> 
> The permanent boundary between Egypt and Israel is the recognized international boundary between Egypt and the former mandated territory of Palestine, as shown on the map at Annex II, without prejudice to the issue of the status of the Gaza Strip. The Parties recognize this boundary as inviolable. Each will respect the territorial integrity of the other, including their territorial waters and airspace.​
> _*SOURCE:*_ The Government of the Arab Republic of Egypt and the Government of the State of Israel



Most Respectfully,
R


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## Phoenall (Apr 23, 2014)

montelatici said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...





 That Palestine was a place much like the Sahara or the Pampas. It was not a nation or state and had many owners from the demise of the Roman empire. It was only in 1988 that a state of Palestine was officially recognised by the UN.


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## Phoenall (Apr 23, 2014)

Sally said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...





 It is all down to their god having told them that he was giving them the world to live in


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## Roudy (Apr 23, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> [MENTION=15726]Hossfly[/MENTION], [MENTION=21837]P F Tinmore[/MENTION], [MENTION=36154]Roudy[/MENTION],  _et al,_
> 
> This is so dumb.
> 
> ...


You say it like they will respect any "treaty".


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## montelatici (Apr 23, 2014)

_That Palestine was a place much like the Sahara or the Pampas._

Too funny.

From the Jewish Virtual Library, I know Palestinian activists.

"The Muslims returned in 1244 and, over the next 47 years, gradually pushed the Crusaders out of *Palestine.* The end of the Latin Kingdom came with the loss of its capital in Acre (Akko) in 1291."

Latin Kingdom


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## Phoenall (Apr 23, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...






 As are the alleged international boundaries, I much prefer the real map that was drawn by the treaty of Lausanne that sets out the borders of Palestine and the RECONSTRUCTED NATIONAL HOME OF THE JEWS.






 More in keeping with the time period than your_ ad hoc_ map that was never put into effect.


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## proudveteran06 (Apr 23, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> proudveteran06 said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



" Palestine" was never a country , it"a a territory . The Arabs take the blame for the. Failed Partition Plan . Are you claiming that the 67 Borders don't include W. Jerusalem and the Palestinians have it all while the Israelis settle for less them they did in 67?? One more reason why there will never be a " Palestinian state"


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## Roudy (Apr 23, 2014)

montelatici said:


> _That Palestine was a place much like the Sahara or the Pampas._
> 
> Too funny.
> 
> ...


You see, again the liar can't make up its mind which bullshit propaganda to promote. A few posts ago it claimed that "all the Christians and Jews converted to Islam".  Ha ha ha...you are more full of it than a sack of shit.


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## Roudy (Apr 23, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...


Yeah, they keep showing you the map after several Arab attacks in 48 and 67. LOL.


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 23, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > proudveteran06 said:
> ...



Interesting.

Does the Sahara have international borders?

Is there a Saharan nationality?

Are there Saharan citizens?

Links please.


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## Hossfly (Apr 23, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...


Not no but hell no, Tinmore. Go find your own links with Google. You sure as hell flood the forums with your stupid links all the time.


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## jillian (Apr 23, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Does the Sahara have international borders?
> 
> ...



your ability to fabricate is extraordinary.


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## MHunterB (Apr 23, 2014)

Jillian - that's only because he's had so many decades to hone his skills and perfect the prevarications, distortions and evasions which characterize his posts.......


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## RoccoR (Apr 23, 2014)

P F Tinmore,  _et al,_

Wow, I can't believe you asked that.



P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...


*(COMMENT)*


Does the Sahara have international borders?
Several.  "The Sahara covers large parts of Algeria, Chad, Egypt, Libya, Mali, Mauritania, Morocco, Niger, Western Sahara, Sudan and Tunisia. It is one of three distinct physiographic provinces of the African massive physiographic division."

Is there a Saharan nationality?
Several.  See above.

Are there Saharan citizens?
Several. Sahara Cultures & Tribes ? Arabs, Berbers, Tuareg, Masai, Bobo & Bushmen 
Arabs: Arabs are the dominant group in the northern Saharan areas that arrived in North Africa during the 7th century AD, at a time when Islam was spreading from its birthplace in the Middle East.

Berbers: Berbers are the earliest inhabitants of the Atlas Mountains. These people do not consider themselves Arabs and are many scattered tribes of Berber across Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, and Egypt.

Tuareg: Tuareg people are predominantly nomadic people of the Sahara desert, mostly in the Northern reaches of Mali near Timbuktu and Kidal. These people mostly travel through the southern area of the Sahara, extending from the south of Algeria into Libya, Niger, and Mali.

Maasai: Maasai, famous as herders and warriors, once dominated the plains of East Africa. Now however they are confined to a fraction of their former range.

Bobo: Bobo people have lived in western Burkina Faso and Mali for centuries. They are known for their masks which are worn with elaborate outfits for celebrations. Primarily agricultural people they also cultivate cotton which they use to trade with others.

Zulu: These are the largest ethnic group in South Africa, well known for their beautiful brightly colored beads and baskets as well as other small carvings.

Bushmen/San: The 'Bushmen' are the oldest inhabitants of Southern Africa, where they have lived for at least 20,000 years. Their home is in the vast expanse of the Kalahari Desert.

Contemporary peoples
Some two million people live in the Sahara, living either a nomadic or settled life wherever they can find food and water. Most of them are in Egypt, Mauritania, Morocco, and Algeria. Dominant ethnicities in the Sahara are various Berber groups including Tuareg tribes, various Arabized Berber groups such as the Hassaniya-speaking Moors (also known as Sahrawis), and various "black African" ethnicities including Tubu, Nubians, Zaghawa, Kanuri, Peul (Fulani), Hausa, and Songhai.

The largest city in the Sahara is the Egyptian capital Cairo, in the Nile Valley. Other important cities are Nouakchott, the capital of Mauritania; Tamanrasset, Ouargla, Bechar, Hassi Messaoud, Ghardaia, El Oued, Algeria; Timbuktu, Mali; Agadez, Niger; Ghat, Libya; and Faya, Chad.​


Links please.
Several.  
Sahara - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sahara Desert - The Sahara Desert in Africa
Sahara Desert - New World Encyclopedia



Most Respectfully,
R


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## toastman (Apr 23, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



Before you ask people for links, why don't you finally admit that you are wrong about the armistice lines still being in effect.
You've spewed that lie for too long now.


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## Phoenall (Apr 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...








 NO as it is fluid and never the same two days running

 NO as it covers more than one national border

 No as it covers more than on national border

 Here you go a map of the nations it covers


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## proudveteran06 (Apr 24, 2014)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



" Armistice lines" still in effect after the Arabs broke them?      Maybe he's right. They were never supposed to be boundaries.


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 24, 2014)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



What do you mean? I have always stated that the armistice lines don't mean squat.

You need to keep up.


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## toastman (Apr 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



You've posted several times that current maps of Israel show armistice lines.
That's a lie.


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 24, 2014)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



What's the lie?


----------



## toastman (Apr 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Is this a serious question??!!??!? I just told you what the lie is.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Apr 24, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> [MENTION=15726]Hossfly[/MENTION], [MENTION=21837]P F Tinmore[/MENTION], [MENTION=36154]Roudy[/MENTION],  _et al,_
> 
> This is so dumb.
> 
> ...



Interesting. Where did Egypt and Israel get the authority to change Palestine's borders?


----------



## toastman (Apr 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > [MENTION=15726]Hossfly[/MENTION], [MENTION=21837]P F Tinmore[/MENTION], [MENTION=36154]Roudy[/MENTION],  _et al,_
> ...



You're so unbelievable immature.
Obviously there were no border there Tinmore!

You just love making up shit whenever the truth is brought to your face.
Egypt and Israel have a PERMANENT INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED BORDER, and that is not up for debate.


----------



## toastman (Apr 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > [MENTION=15726]Hossfly[/MENTION], [MENTION=21837]P F Tinmore[/MENTION], [MENTION=36154]Roudy[/MENTION],  _et al,_
> ...



And it was 't Egypt or Israel that changed the border. 
It was done through a U.N backed treaty.


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## Phoenall (Apr 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...





 That Israel has no Internationally recognised borders and that they exist inside the ones the Palestinians never negotiated.


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 24, 2014)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



From the link:



> *"As is" reference - not a United Nations document*


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## Hossfly (Apr 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


It depends on what "as is" is. Right, Tinhore?


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 24, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



The armistice lines are the internationally recognized *de facto* borders. They are not real borders. Israel does not recognize them as their borders.

Palestine's international borders were defined by post war treaties like all of the other countries in that area.

And indeed, Israel sits inside Palestinian's international borders with its fake borders.


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 24, 2014)

Hossfly said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



It was not a UN treaty. It was just given to the UN to put on file.


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## toastman (Apr 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Israels fake borders??? LOL

You might not recognize them , but they are in fact real.
There's no such thing as fake borders. Either Israel has borders or they don't. Theres nothing in between really.
Palestine does not have any permane t onternationally recognized borders.
Notice how I'm able to produce a curre t map of Israels with those borders as well as the UN backed treaties from the UN website that clearly tells us about the borders.
D
You have nothing but lies and continuous denial.

Israel Map - Israel Satellite Image - Physical - Political

No Palestine in there.
And the UN treaties don't mention Palestines international boundaries with Egypt or any surrou ding country


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## toastman (Apr 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Then who wrote the treaty Tinmore? There has to be a mutual group to do so.
The treaty was backed by the U.N and accepted by them and now put on file.
Why would they accept them if they're not legit ?


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## Phoenall (Apr 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > [MENTION=15726]Hossfly[/MENTION], [MENTION=21837]P F Tinmore[/MENTION], [MENTION=36154]Roudy[/MENTION],  _et al,_
> ...





 When they decided to talk peace, seeing as Palestine had no actual borders after the formation of Syria and Jordan . That process removed the "International borders of Palestine" as expected by the LoN


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## toastman (Apr 24, 2014)

The Israel-Jordan Treaty of Peace was signed on October 26, 1994. The treaty resolved territorial and border issues that were ongoing since the 1948 war. The treaty specified and fully recognized the international border between Israel and Jordan. 


he Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty, signed on March 26, 1979 created an officially recognized international border along the 1906 line, with Egypt renouncing all claims to the Gaza Strip. 

Borders of Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Phoenall (Apr 24, 2014)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...






 He forgets that 242 and 338 define the procedure for putting in place mutually agreed borders. And deliberately leave Palestine out of the equation because it did not exist, not even the arab nations wanted to see Palestine in the resolutions.


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 24, 2014)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



What does the UN say?






Read the disclaimer in the lower left.


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 24, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



Can you prove what you just said?


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## toastman (Apr 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...





P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



I read it. And?? it does not refute anything I said.

BTW, the map you just posted clearly marks Israels international boundaries. 
You cannot refute that.


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 24, 2014)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



Indeed, and it also said that it might not be true. It is not a definitive source.


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## toastman (Apr 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



All it says is that the map does not represent their OPINION concerning the legal status of the borders, territory ....
Means nothing.

There is no such thing as maybe there are borders.
The borders ARE there, and I've presented you with more than enough proof.


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## Hossfly (Apr 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


We'll take our chances and hope the land indicated doesn't mysteriously disappear. How's that , Yassir?


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## Roudy (Apr 24, 2014)

Hey I have an idea!  How about we forget the fact that Arabs attacked Israel many times in order to destroy it, and still want to do that, and just start from a blank slate ie STATUS QUO:

Israel is currently a thriving, strong, prosperous advanced country, and controls said territory named "West Bank", and has a blockade for weapons around Gaza (as does Egypt on the South).  

You guys want Israel to ease off and POSSIBLY give some land back?  Show that you are serious about accepting Israel as a Jewish state, serious about Israel's security, and will honor any peace deal.  Until you do those three things, Israel will continue to build and settle more Israelis in land that was won fair and square in a defensive war.  Israel is a small country and it's citizens need room.  Don't like it?  Tough shit!


----------



## bluesman (Apr 24, 2014)

Lipush said:


> This Thread reeks of typical Anti-Jewish Islamic hatred, Freddi.
> 
> But I guess you already know that.



It seems like Israel is allowed to do anything they want and if anybody disagrees then they violate some Jewish political correctness.   Israel has done all kinds of un-American type shit and it doesn't mean a person hates Jews if they don't pretend like there is a different set of rules for Israel.   Israel bases citizenship on religion.  That is a concept that is completely contrary to the values espoused by the people who wrote the constitution.   Also, Israel has been bulldozing homes and taking land from non-Jews.  It is a bullshit way to exist.  In terms of bullshit racist policies Israel has taken over for South Africa.  I don't get it why anybody thinks we should just blindly support Israel just because they are Jewish.  If being Jewish means that it is OK to have backwards policies, then I am against it.  Leave the religion in the synagogue and start acting like decent human beings.   I get it that there are terrorists but that isn't a license for a country to treat non-Jews like dogs and then expect Americans to stand by while they do it.


_We hold these truths to be self-evident, that *all men are created equal*, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness..._


----------



## toastman (Apr 24, 2014)

bluesman said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > This Thread reeks of typical Anti-Jewish Islamic hatred, Freddi.
> ...



Did you bother to read the OP ??
This has nothing to do with calling someone anti Semitic because they criticized Israel.


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## bluesman (Apr 24, 2014)

toastman said:


> bluesman said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



Are you an idiot?  I used the quote feature to show what I was responding to.


----------



## MHunterB (Apr 24, 2014)

Since when is any nation OUTside of the US to be condemned for behaving in some 'u-American' fashion?
And what of the times the US has behaved so?  The 'Tuskeegee experiments'?  The forced sterilization of certain women ?  The imprisoning of conscientious objectors during WW1?  The internment of Japanese-Americans on the West Coast, while German-Americans on the East Coast were free to hold their 'Bund' meetings?  Or the entire 'Jim Crow' episode?

As to 'treating others like dogs' - it wasn't in Israel but the US where the beaches had signs "No Dogs or Jews Allowed"..........

I don't imagine that any thinking person supports Israel blindly, or only because 80% of Israelis are Jews.   There are so very manyother reasons to support our ally Israel.


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## MHunterB (Apr 24, 2014)

bluesman said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > bluesman said:
> ...



Since you were NOT responding to the Opening Post of this thread, your post did not answer the question asked.   Perhaps you did not understand what you were being asked?


----------



## toastman (Apr 24, 2014)

bluesman said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > bluesman said:
> ...



Are YOU an idiot?? Your post has nothing to di with the OP OR the post you quoted.
Lipush didn't accuse his of anti Semitism because he criticized Israel or her policies.

Fail


----------



## P F Tinmore (Apr 24, 2014)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



The UN also has the 1948 Palestinian declaration of independence on file.


----------



## toastman (Apr 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Diference is, I can prove the borders to you as well as visually show them to you.

The 1948 declaratikn of Indepndence did nothing. It was void.
Which is why they did it again in 1988 and that's when they became an official state.
You can't declare independence on land already declared independent.


----------



## Hossfly (Apr 24, 2014)

bluesman said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > bluesman said:
> ...


Dayam, another Jew-hater popped up like a turdbblossom. Wassamatter, Stormfront iz downsizing?


----------



## RoccoR (Apr 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore,  _et al,_

Yes there is.



P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

It came late and came in conflict.  The All Palestine Government did not participate in the implementation process and they did not follow the General Assembly adopted "steps preparatory to independence."  They were given the attention and consideration they deserved.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## montelatici (Apr 24, 2014)

Hossfly said:


> bluesman said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



Well, this section of a fine forum otherwise, being the ZioNazi equivalent of Stormfront, it is to be expected.


----------



## Jroc (Apr 24, 2014)

CMike said:


> guno said:
> 
> 
> > As I Jew I belong to this organisation , being anti Israel in their policies does not make one antisemitic
> ...



Liberal first


----------



## Jroc (Apr 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



not "post war" and no treaties


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## bluesman (Apr 24, 2014)

Hossfly said:


> bluesman said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



I can't tell if you are making a joke or really a supporter of the way Israel runs their government.   If someone tried to change the constitution in America so that members of only one particular religion could be citizens, then that would be awful.  Why should I support a country that does that?     If you are stumped then just say something stupid again.


----------



## bluesman (Apr 24, 2014)

toastman said:


> bluesman said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



Here is the  post I responded to:



Lipush said:


> This Thread reeks of typical Anti-Jewish Islamic hatred, Freddi.
> 
> But I guess you already know that.




I was simply pointing out that I am an American and I don't approve of the policy where citizenship is based on religion.   To me it seems un-American.  It doesn't require a hatred of Jews to say that.  All it requires is an understanding of a basic American principle.  I don't care what religion it is.  I don't support that kind of racism.  It was wrong in South Africa and it is wrong in Israel.  There isn't anything anti-Jewish about that.  I just don't like that form of government.  The people that started our country didn't care for it either.


----------



## Indeependent (Apr 24, 2014)

I would personally like to thank Monte for pointing out the great number of highly educated, and rather successful, people associated in a positive way with Israel.

Now if he can only produce a list of like length of highly educated Moslems who are positive influences on the Moslem world.


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 24, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> 
> Yes there is.
> 
> ...



Israel didn't accept resolution 181 either.

What is your point?


----------



## toastman (Apr 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> ...



Wow. Just.... Wow


----------



## P F Tinmore (Apr 24, 2014)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



Yeah? who says?



> *ARTICLE 3*
> 
> The political existence of the state is independent of recognition by the other states. Even before recognition the state has the right to defend its integrity and independence,...
> 
> The Avalon Project : Convention on Rights and Duties of States (inter-American); December 26, 1933


----------



## RoccoR (Apr 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore,  _et al,_

The UN Palestine Commission saw it differently.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

It was the external interference by the Arab League that interrupted the implmentation process.  

But the intention was clear.  Unlike the Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP), the Jewish Representatives participated in every phase of the implementation process, completed their applicable steps preparatory to independence, and acknowledged the Resolution in their Declaration of Independence.  

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Hossfly (Apr 24, 2014)

bluesman said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > bluesman said:
> ...


You shouldn't be concerned with how Israel runs their government If it bothers you so much you can always join Hizbollah and make your move. And don't miss anymore group sessions, Yassir.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Apr 24, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> 
> The UN Palestine Commission saw it differently.
> 
> ...



Bull crapola, Rocco.

Did Israel recognize the rights of the non Jews?

Did Israel recognize the proposed borders?

Did Israel recognize the international city of Jerusalem?

I await your answer.


----------



## toastman (Apr 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



- Nothing you posted refutes my statement
- You cannot declare independence on land already declared independent 
- When I look for the 1949 DOI of Palestine on Google or Yahoo, the ONLY one that comes up is the officially recognized on in 1988
- If their official DOI was in 1948, why did they need to do it again in 1988?
- Even the pro Palestinian site say that Palestine declared independence in 1988


----------



## toastman (Apr 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> ...



Oh , shut the fuck up Tinmore. You have no idea what you're talking abou!

Nothing you posted even refutes what Rocco said.
Everything he said is 100% correct. 
For fucks sake, even the Palestinians used resolution 181 to DI in 1988.

You are wrong about everything 99% of the time.
I've never met someone who discussed an issue so often yet knows so little about the facts surrounding that issue (the IP conflict)


----------



## P F Tinmore (Apr 24, 2014)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



What land did Israel declare? What were its defined borders?


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 24, 2014)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



By Palestinians, do you mean their foreign appointed leaders?


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## toastman (Apr 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



The land allotted to her in the partition plan. Stop asking questions you know the answer to!

As for borders, they were about to declare the ones allotted to her in the partition plan, but David ben Gurion decided not to at the moment because he knew war was imminent from the Arab threats, and that the borders might change.
Boy was he right!


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## toastman (Apr 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Which leaders are you refferring to ?


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## toastman (Apr 24, 2014)

Legal justification for the declaration was based on United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181 (II) of 29 November 1947, which provided for the termination and partition of the British Mandate into two states. 

Palestinian Declaration of Independence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Even the Palestinians used Resolution 181 .


----------



## Roudy (Apr 24, 2014)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...


LOL, you forgot they declared statehood a third time two years a ago which fizzled as well.  Is there a limit as to how many times people can falsely declare statehood without there being any land to declare it on?


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## aris2chat (Apr 24, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> ...



Israel accepted the partition and declared independence when the mandate ended.  Then it was attack immediately after by the arab states.
Arabs refused the partition that would have given the Palestinians a state.  Jordan occupied the WB, Egypt occupied gaza.  Either attempted to give the palestinian their land or create a state for them, separate or together.  Jordan actually annexed the WB.

Take the issue up with the arabs about not accepting and forcing the palestinians they told to flee into refugee camps.


----------



## bluesman (Apr 24, 2014)

Hossfly said:


> bluesman said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



If America is going ally itself with a country, then we have the right to have an opinion about how they conduct themselves in terms of basic human rights.  I didn't care for the way that South Africa ran its government either.  There is no logical requirement for me to "go join up" with anybody because I don't agree with the idea of citizenship being based on religion.  If you think it is something that is out of bounds for discussion then maybe you should join a forum where there is no discussion.


----------



## Hossfly (Apr 24, 2014)

bluesman said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > bluesman said:
> ...


OK. I will just assume you are just an uninformed gossip and busybody. Now go pluck yer fiddle


----------



## Book of Jeremiah (Apr 25, 2014)

guno said:


> As I Jew I belong to this organisation , being anti Israel in their policies does not make one antisemitic
> 
> I lost 4 relatives in the shoa
> 
> Israel/Palestine 101 | Jewish Voice for Peace



Then it is time for you to get on board and start defending Israel, Guno.  I'm sorry for the loss of your relatives but this means you should be fighting HARDER for this generation than others because you know what is on the line here.   

There is no place for being anti - Israel.  Not even a little bit.   Forgeddaboudit...  tell those who say there is to take a hike!


----------



## montelatici (Apr 25, 2014)

Hossfly said:


> bluesman said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



You are the uninformed one and luckily a diminishing minority world wide.

Even the Israeli's in power know it:


*Lapid: The world is losing patience, sympathy with Israel*

"The world headed by the US is losing not only its sympathy but its patience. Nothing is more vital to Israel than our special relationship with the US,

Lapid: The world is losing patience, sympathy with Israel | JPost | Israel News


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## Hossfly (Apr 25, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > bluesman said:
> ...


I'll believe that BS when water runs uphill and pigs fly.


----------



## toastman (Apr 25, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > bluesman said:
> ...



You out of all posters calling someone else uninformed??

Oh please monty


----------



## bluesman (Apr 25, 2014)

Hossfly said:


> bluesman said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



You are free to make any ignorant assumption you wish.  However, it is a fact that Israel currently requires a person to be a particular religion to be a citizen.  That isn't gossipy; just a fact.  If you agree with that kind of policy then we can agree to disagree.


----------



## jillian (Apr 25, 2014)

bluesman said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > bluesman said:
> ...



first of all, that is a lie. so you really are ignorant and uninformed.



> Roughly 21% of Israel&#8217;s more than eight million citizens are Arabs. The vast majority of the Israeli Arabs - 81% - are Muslims. Arabs in Israel have equal voting rights; in fact, it is one of the few places in the Middle East where Arab women may vote. Arabs currently hold ten seats in the Knesset. Israeli Arabs have also held various government posts.



The Status of Arabs in Israel | Jewish Virtual Library



> Christian Arabs comprise about 9% of the Arab population in Israel.
> 
> *snip*
> Palestinian Arabs sat in the state's first parliamentary assembly; as of 2011, 13 of the 120 members of the Israeli Parliament are Arab citizens, most representing Arab political parties, and one of Israel's Supreme Court judges is a Palestinian Arab.



Arab citizens of Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and before you say that isn't very many christians or arabs, how many jews are in government in any of the dozen muslm countries.

now i'd suggest you become more informed before spreading further anti-semitic lies since i'll assume, for now, that you're a person of good will and fair mind who has just been horribly misinformed.


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## montelatici (Apr 25, 2014)

jillian said:


> bluesman said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



"and before you say that isn't very many christians or arabs, how many jews are in government in any of the dozen muslm countries."


About the same proportion to the population as non-Jews in Israel.


----------



## MHunterB (Apr 25, 2014)

bluesman said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > bluesman said:
> ...



NO, it is not a fact - not about Israel.  It *is* a fact about another US ally, though - are you going to complain about them?


----------



## jillian (Apr 25, 2014)

montelatici said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > bluesman said:
> ...



no. liar.


----------



## montelatici (Apr 25, 2014)

jillian said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...



Of course it is about the same proportion.  Prove me wrong.


----------



## toastman (Apr 25, 2014)

bluesman said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > bluesman said:
> ...



WTF kind if lie is that??


----------



## toastman (Apr 25, 2014)

montelatici said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



But you're the one who made the claim. Now post a link to back it up....


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## Kondor3 (Apr 25, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


It is in Israel if the Jews SAY it is in Israel.

Don't like that?

Pick up a rifle and take it back.

If you can.


----------



## Hossfly (Apr 25, 2014)

bluesman said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > bluesman said:
> ...


Hebrew or Muslim or Christian or any of the many different religions in Israel. Or Atheist or Moon worshipper. You mean I can pick one?  Oh, goody!


----------



## Roudy (Apr 25, 2014)

MOHOMOD Latici:


> "and before you say that isn't very many christians or arabs, how many jews are in government in any of the dozen muslm countries."...About the same proportion to the population as non-Jews in Israel.



Link?  Now that's the biggest pile of Islamic dung I have heard in a long time.


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## Roudy (Apr 25, 2014)

bluesman said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > bluesman said:
> ...


Another ignoramus chimes in.  So you're saying that the 1.8 million Arab Muslims that are Israeli citizens aren't really Muslims?


----------



## bluesman (Apr 25, 2014)

Roudy said:


> bluesman said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



You are ignorant if you do not know that it is much easier for a person of Jewish faith to become a citizen of Israel.

Israeli Supreme Court uphold discriminatory citizenship law


_Hatib explained that though his wife holds a permit of temporary residence, the court ruling puts an end to any hope for advancement or a normal life. &#8220;She can&#8217;t develop a career &#8211; She can&#8217;t even drive a car, though she holds a Palestinian driver&#8217;s license_.&#8221;


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## Kondor3 (Apr 25, 2014)

bluesman said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > bluesman said:
> ...


That is not what you said originally (the larger typeface of the two).

Trying to cover your tracks afterwards is Bad Form...


----------



## SAYIT (Apr 25, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> bluesman said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Yet sooooo typical.


----------



## toastman (Apr 25, 2014)

bluesman said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > bluesman said:
> ...



You said Israel REQUIRES (key word) for people to be a certain religion to become a citizen of their country.
Then you changed your statement to say that it's HARDER for non Jews to become citizens in Israel.  
You made a mistake. Own up to it.


----------



## Roudy (Apr 26, 2014)

bluesman said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > bluesman said:
> ...


Your statement, considering that almost a quarter of Israel's population consists of Muslim Arab citizens, is blatantly false and ignorant.

Boozeman:


> it is a fact that Israel currently requires a person to be a particular religion to be a citizen.


----------



## Roudy (Apr 26, 2014)

montelatici said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...


Wow...seriously?  You can't be this ignorant.  Oh well.


----------



## Lipush (Apr 26, 2014)

bluesman said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > bluesman said:
> ...



Oh, but that's completely different from what you said earlier.

I'd appreciate if you stop telling lies about my state without at least trying to back them up in a believable way.

Or you can just stop with the lies all together. That'll be a much better idea.


----------



## Lipush (Apr 26, 2014)

bluesman said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > bluesman said:
> ...



That is one of your problems. You think that just because you're the greatest western empire that controls half the global states, you can tell people how to f**** live their lives.

Aren't you supposed to be liberal and all that crap?


----------



## Indofred (Apr 26, 2014)

editec said:


> WEll LIPS, I'd say it reeks of anti-Israeli sentiment.
> 
> It is possible, ya know, to object to much about the state of Israel and not hate Jews one bit.
> 
> Not that I am speaking on behalf of Indo, but I am simply this responding to the content of this particular post.



You almost spoke for me.
This is about Jewish EXTREMISTS, trying to force America into a position they know will result in greater hatred of Americans, and very probably America deaths.
Such a move would remove the last chance of America's attempt at keeping peace talks going and, even worse, would legitimise the EXTREMISTS Jews' claim over this occupied city.

These Jewish EXTREMISTS should be deported immediately.


----------



## Indofred (Apr 26, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Jerusalem has been part of and a symbol for Israel, for Jews and Judaism for the last 3000 years, ignoramus.



Not really.
The modern city isn't where the ancient city stood.
The City of David | Jewish Virtual Library



> the Jerusalem of ancient times - was located on a narrow ridge south of the present-day Old City.



In fact, David the bastard invaded a city that had been around since the bronze age.
He managed that in 970BC and his lot managed to hold on to the place for about 1,000 years.
After that, there was a gap of just short of 2,000 years where there were hardly any Jews around.

So, the facts are simple; out of thousands of years of history, Jews invaded for a while but were mostly not there at all.
Zionism is a load of old shit.


----------



## Indofred (Apr 26, 2014)

Jeremiah said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> > U.S. Supreme Court to review Jerusalem birthplace law | Reuters
> ...



I'm a little tired, but is it May 31, 1999 already?


----------



## Indofred (Apr 26, 2014)

Jeremiah said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Jerusalem has been part of and a symbol for Israel, for Jews and Judaism for the last 3000 years, ignoramus.
> ...



Except for the several thousands years when it did not.
I used to own a car and the bastard that bought it from me should return it, without payment.
Ner. You invaded the city but lost it again.
Tough - live with it.


----------



## Indofred (Apr 26, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Should a Muslim somehow be from a Muslim country that allows dual citizenship he could/would lose his U.S. citizenship if he acted on it, i.e. voted, joined the Army etc.
> 
> However, the courts have allowed dual citizenship if the other citizenship is Israeli,
> based on the Beys Afroyim Supreme Court case of 1967.



American Jews join the IDF and fight for Israel.
Double standards?


----------



## Indofred (Apr 26, 2014)

CMike said:


> Jerusalem is Israel's capital city.



All murderous states end up the same way - they get smashed and loads of their own people pay the price.
Israelis need to dump their idiot government and go with a reasonable agenda, including the '67 borders.


----------



## Indofred (Apr 26, 2014)

Lipush said:


> He didn't write "Israel", he wrote *"JEWS *trying to get Americans killed".
> 
> So don't smart-ass me.
> 
> I learned how to read English on second grade



I did.
Theses extremists are Jews and they know their stupidity will lead to a high chance of American deaths.
I'm happy to describe these extremist Jews in that way, not all Jews.
Perhaps you should retake second grade.


----------



## Indofred (Apr 26, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> What a load of old BULLSHIT. There is already in place a law that says that Jerusalem can be used as a place of birth for a Jew, so why haven't the ISLAMONAZI TERROISTS attacked America over that and killed Americans.
> 
> 
> It is you and your stupid ANTISEMITIC NAZI JEW HATREDS that is putting American lives in danger.



I think the hater is pretty easy to spot here.


----------



## Indofred (Apr 26, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> > WEll LIPS, I'd say it reeks of anti-Israeli sentiment.
> ...



Yes. All American passports held by Israelis should be revoked.
That would include all Israelis living in the United states of America and anyone eligible for Israeli citizenship.


----------



## Indofred (Apr 26, 2014)

Mojo2 said:


> And the Islamic stealth infiltration of America is already underway.



The Jews have beaten us to it.
Why else does the U.S. government give so much American taxpayers' money to Israel?
You have homeless and people without healthcare, but you give $billions to an extremist state.


----------



## Indofred (Apr 26, 2014)

montelatici said:


> "  palestine" which never existed ( And never will )



Palestine was Palestine for over 2,000 years. Since 135 AD.

Palestina en el Imperio Romano[/QUOTE]

What, longer than it was a Jewish invaded land?
Surely not.


----------



## toastman (Apr 26, 2014)

Indofred said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > "  palestine" which never existed ( And never will )
> ...



What, longer than it was a Jewish invaded land?
Surely not. [/QUOTE]

Israel is NOW a Jewish state. And you can't stand that. 

Heres some advice: get used to it because it's not going to change.


----------



## toastman (Apr 26, 2014)

Indofred said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > editec said:
> ...



What a ridiculous idea. Just because you hate Israel, doesn't mean these idiotic ideas if yours will come true


----------



## Indofred (Apr 26, 2014)

I see it this way.
I'll be happy to agree with the pro Israelis on one condition.
They can post a map of Israel between 1AD and 1945 AD, with a list of all presidents, prime ministers and senior government figures in that time frame.

I seriously don't expect anything outside a few religious figures, claiming to be what they aren't.
Israel was missing from the world for two thousand years before being claimed as a Jewish homeland.

Zionism is bullshit.


----------



## Indofred (Apr 26, 2014)

toastman said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



I don't hate anyone, but the Israeli government are a bunch of bastards.
The Israeli people should get rid of them before it costs them their lives and the whole of their country.
Extremist Israeli governments will eventually cause the total destruction of that country.
A pity as so many innocents will suffer for the extremists' dream.


----------



## Phoenall (Apr 26, 2014)

Indofred said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> > WEll LIPS, I'd say it reeks of anti-Israeli sentiment.
> ...





That is just your NAZI JEW HATRED saying that, the fact is they are American citizens so were will you deport them to. Which American country would take them in, as no nation is obliged to accept them as CITIZENS. All it is about is having a persons place of birth on their passports, and if it was some muslim demanding that their Islamic place of birth be on their passport you would not say anything


----------



## toastman (Apr 26, 2014)

Indofred said:


> I see it this way.
> I'll be happy to agree with the pro Israelis on one condition.
> They can post a map of Israel between 1AD and 1945 AD, with a list of all presidents, prime ministers and senior government figures in that time frame.
> 
> ...



I never said there was an Israel during that time.
What does that have to do with anything??

I'm talking about NOW. Israel is NOW a Jewish state. 

Don't like it? Too bad Fred.


----------



## Phoenall (Apr 26, 2014)

Indofred said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Should a Muslim somehow be from a Muslim country that allows dual citizenship he could/would lose his U.S. citizenship if he acted on it, i.e. voted, joined the Army etc.
> ...




 British muslims go to Iraq, Afghanistan to shoot British soldiers. They also go to Somalia and Syria to fight against the enemies of islam . I don't see you complaining about those double standards


----------



## Phoenall (Apr 26, 2014)

Indofred said:


> CMike said:
> 
> 
> > Jerusalem is Israel's capital city.
> ...





 Which 67 borders would they be then, when were they negotiated and agreed in accordance with UN resolution 242 ?


----------



## Phoenall (Apr 26, 2014)

Indofred said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > What a load of old BULLSHIT. There is already in place a law that says that Jerusalem can be used as a place of birth for a Jew, so why haven't the ISLAMONAZI TERROISTS attacked America over that and killed Americans.
> ...






 Yes it is you with your constant use of the ISLAMONAZI ANTISEMITIC JEW HATRED term "Zionist entity"


----------



## Phoenall (Apr 26, 2014)

Indofred said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > editec said:
> ...






 Didn't your HERO Hitler not try that trick shortly before rounding up all the Jews and putting them in death camps.    Now who is showing their pathological hatred for the Jews.


 How about we do the same thing to all Italians, English, Scots, Irish, Welsh, Germans and muslims. Just because someone somewhere in the USA does not like these groups of people


----------



## Phoenall (Apr 26, 2014)

Indofred said:


> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> > And the Islamic stealth infiltration of America is already underway.
> ...





 And in the case of Israel get more $ billions back in loan repayments and interest. Should they also stop all aid to Pakistan and Afgahnistan both of which are extremist states. Or how about Egypt and Iraq that get the same as Israel does


----------



## Phoenall (Apr 26, 2014)

Indofred said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > "  palestine" which never existed ( And never will )
> ...



What, longer than it was a Jewish invaded land?
Surely not. [/QUOTE]



 Jews have lived on the land for 4,500 years, muslims have flitted on and off the land for 1400 years, but never staying for very long.


----------



## Phoenall (Apr 26, 2014)

Indofred said:


> I see it this way.
> I'll be happy to agree with the pro Israelis on one condition.
> They can post a map of Israel between 1AD and 1945 AD, with a list of all presidents, prime ministers and senior government figures in that time frame.
> 
> ...






 Like this do you mean







 With George V as the king.

 All in the League of Nations annals and the U.N. archives.


----------



## Phoenall (Apr 26, 2014)

Indofred said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Indofred said:
> ...






 Your pores weep hatred you are that infused with it. Only someone with a pathological hatred of the Jews would constantly refer to them as that "Zionist entity" a term that is seen as ANTI SEMITIC RACISM in all civilised countries.

 What about the extremist Islamic governments will they also cause the total destruction of the likes of Syria, Iran, Lebanon and Palestine.


----------



## aris2chat (Apr 26, 2014)

bluesman said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > bluesman said:
> ...



Anyone of any religion can apply to become a citizen if Israel.  They must learn hebrew and find a job while living in Israel and waiting for approval.
Even jews that apply can be denied citizenship.
Why spread lies?  Or are you really that poorly informed about the laws in Israel?  All jews have a right to apply for citizenship, but that does not mean only jews can become citizens.
Shame that disinformation is so easily spread and so readily accepted to support those with an agenda to hate.


----------



## SAYIT (Apr 26, 2014)

Indofred said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> > WEll LIPS, I'd say it reeks of anti-Israeli sentiment.
> ...



Who do you think you're fooling? There aren't enough "Jewish EXTREMISTS" to force America to do anything. This is, like all your posts, about your JEW-Hate and as an admitted "EXTREMIST Muslim" you are hardly one to judge anyone on anything. That said, you could be right about 1 thing ... it may well be time to deport all EXTREMIST Muslims from America.


----------



## SAYIT (Apr 26, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> bluesman said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



Like most of his type he must lie because the truth just doesn't fully express his mindless hatred.


----------



## montelatici (Apr 26, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> bluesman said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



You are spreading lies and propaganda.  Only a fool can believe that a law that applies only to Jewish citizens of Israel (Law of Return) is not discriminatory. Jews can only be denied citizenship if they are found to have committed a capital crime. I am better informed than you are about Israel laws.

Even the sugar coated U.S. Department of State Reports confirm Israel's discrimination against non-Jews.  Neutral observers such as Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International are much more sanguine.

"U.S. State Department: Israel is not a tolerant society

Report claims Israel discriminates against Muslims, Reform Jews, Christians, women and Bedouin."

*Advertisement


----------



## montelatici (Apr 26, 2014)

SAYIT said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > bluesman said:
> ...



Like most naive people you believe the propaganda being spread by this poster.  So believe this fanatic or beleive the U.S. Department of State.

From a United States Department of State Human Rights Report:

"Principal human rights problems were institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against Arab citizens........Arab and other minority residents of the country faced official and societal discrimination in a number of areas, including employment, education, land ownership,* and naturalization."
*


2010 Human Rights Report: Israel and the occupied territories


----------



## SAYIT (Apr 26, 2014)

montelatici said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



I take it you are referring to the propaganda Blue is spreading as nothing in that report supports the claim that "...*it is a fact that Israel currently requires a person to be a particular religion to be a citizen*." Blue is an ignorant, Electronic Intifada trained propagandist or a liar (or both) and you are attempting to defend that.


----------



## Indofred (Apr 26, 2014)

toastman said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> > I see it this way.
> ...



So you admit, it's a Jewish homeland by invasion.
A counter invasion would, by that standard, be legitimate.


----------



## montelatici (Apr 26, 2014)

SAYIT said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > SAYIT said:
> ...



No, I am quoting the United States Department of State.


----------



## SAYIT (Apr 26, 2014)

montelatici said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



Which does not support Blue's camel crap which I emboldened. You can read it, right? I can repost it in red:

*"...it is a fact that Israel currently requires a person to be a particular religion to be a citizen."*


----------



## bluesman (Apr 26, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> bluesman said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



Yeah.  Except for the fact that there is a law that gives preference to Jews.  


Do you "shame" the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs?   Here is what they have posted on their website:


Acquisition of Israeli Nationality



_
For the purposes of this Law, "Jew" means a person who was born of a Jewish mother, or *has converted to Judaism* and is not a member of another religion.

Israeli citizenship becomes effective on the day of arrival in the country or of receipt of an oleh's certificate, whichever is later. _



If that doesn't mean what it says, then what does it mean?


----------



## Roudy (Apr 26, 2014)

Indofred said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Indofred said:
> ...


It's a Jewish homeland because it was designated by those who controlled it aka the British on land that the ancient ancestors of the Jews first lived, and Israel and Jerusalem have been in the hearts,minds, and souls of Jews for over 3000 years.  In other words Arabs are the invaders and aliens to the land.


----------



## Roudy (Apr 26, 2014)

bluesman said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > bluesman said:
> ...


It means Israel will always be open to all Jews who are fleeing oppression, persecution, and bigotry all over the world, but being a Jew is not the only requirement to be an Israeli, since over 1.8 million Arab Muslims, a quarter if Israel's populations, are Israeli citizens with full and equal rights as the rest of the Israelis.


----------



## Roudy (Apr 26, 2014)

SAYIT said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > SAYIT said:
> ...


He's been backtracking since he shoved his hoof in his mouth with that one.


----------



## Roudy (Apr 26, 2014)

montelatici said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...


Idiot, nobody is claiming there are NO violations ever.  The same website says that Israel is a vibrant democracy with equal rights to all, that prosecutes those who violates said rights.  In fact, if one reviews that webpage you will be quite impressed that Amount of respect and laws in place to protect the civil rights of its citizens. If you compare Israel to the US and many European / Western nations, Israel will come out looking better than they do!

You Moooslems and Arabs?  FUGGETABOUTIT.  Human rights is not even a right according to Muslims  ha ha ha.


----------



## bluesman (Apr 26, 2014)

Roudy said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



Jews are automatic first class citizens and if someone happens to be a muslim, then it is difficult for them to become a citizen.  I posted a link showing that.  I posted a link to the Israeli governments website showing that Jews were automatic citizens.    

Here in America we have a founding principle that all men are created equal.  That is true conservatism.  If you want to use the literal definition of the word, anyone who feels like America should stand  behind a country who does "not hold these truths self evident" is truly a liberal when it comes to interpreting the original American values. 

The fact that nobody is addressing the content of what I am saying shows how fucked up the thinking is.  Fuck that.  I owe my allegiance to America and American values.  Not some fucked up system where people from one religion are automatic citizens and others are given the run around.


----------



## Roudy (Apr 26, 2014)

bluesman said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > SAYIT said:
> ...


But that wasn't what you said initially, was it?  You IGNORANTLY said "it's a requirement".

Of course Jews get a preference for becoming citizens, in a state established as a shelter and homeland for Jews, dipstick!  But not being a Jew does not exclude you from being a citizen, as you misrepresented.  And once you're a citizen in Israel, Jew or non Jew, you have the same rights as others.  

Why don't you just take your foot out of your mouth and run along, Boozeman?


----------



## bluesman (Apr 26, 2014)

Roudy said:


> bluesman said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...




Bullshit if the non-Jews have true equal rights.  Also, why did you skip over the post where if an Israeli marries a Palestinian, then the Palestinian is denied any consideration whatsoever?     Are you cool with people being granted citizenship based on their religion?    The law means that Jews are given automatic citizenship based purely on their religion.  It specifically lists converts.   This is the fucking government website.

Israeli Supreme Court uphold discriminatory citizenship law



_Taysar Hatib and his wife Lana of Acre married six years ago. Up to this day Lana, originally from Nablus, has been denied an Israeli citizenship. She receives a temporary permit to live with her husband in Acre annually, but doesn&#8217;t hold the legal rights extended to permanent Israeli residents.

Taysar, who is writing his anthropology doctorate at Haifa University and is employed as a lecturer at the Western Galilee College, wasn&#8217;t surprised by the court ruling. &#8220;The decision is proof that one shouldn&#8217;t have any faith in the Israeli judicial system. It is clear that the Supreme Court is influenced by the wave of fascism and racism sweeping Israel and the judges weren&#8217;t expected to act in any other way.&#8221;

Hatib explained that though his wife holds a permit of temporary residence, the court ruling puts an end to any hope for advancement or a normal life. &#8220;She can&#8217;t develop a career &#8211; She can&#8217;t even drive a car, though she holds a Palestinian driver&#8217;s license.&#8221;_




That sound just like America except for the part that it is racist.  Fuck all racists.


----------



## bluesman (Apr 26, 2014)

bluesman said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > bluesman said:
> ...



Here, I will translate the Israeli Government website for the dip-shits:


First, let's look at the Israeli government website:

Acquisition of Israeli Nationality



_
For the purposes of this Law, "Jew" means a person who was born of a Jewish mother, or *has converted to Judaism* and is not a member of another religion.

Israeli citizenship becomes effective on the day of arrival in the country or of receipt of an oleh's certificate, whichever is later. _


That means that if you are a Jew, even a convert, then you are automatically a citizen.  If you are an "other religion", then "FUCK YOU".


----------



## bluesman (Apr 26, 2014)

Roudy said:


> bluesman said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Only a pure dip-shit cannot see that for all practical purposes, it is a requirement.  I posted a link to the Israeli government website showing that citizenship is automatic for Jews and I posted a link to a Israeli Supreme Court ruling showing how hard it is for a Muslim to become a citizen.  It doesn't take any reading between the lines. They are blatant about it.  If you want to become a citizen, the first question is "what is your religion".  If you are a Jew by faith, then you are a citizen.  If you are not a Jew, well, then you are fucked.  That is just how it is.  I am reporting historical facts.  I like Jews just fine.  However, I don't care for governments with racist polices which are contrary to core American values.


----------



## RoccoR (Apr 26, 2014)

bluesman, aris2chat; _et al,_

What is the issue.  There is more than one way to pick-up nationality.



> Acquisition of Nationality by Naturalization
> 
> Adults may acquire Israeli citizenship by naturalization at the discretion of the Minister of the Interior and subject to a number of requirements, such as:
> 
> ...



All countries have restrictions to nationality acquisition; even the US.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## bluesman (Apr 26, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> bluesman, aris2chat; _et al,_
> 
> What is the issue.  There is more than one way to pick-up nationality.
> 
> ...




All countries don't consider religion as a primary determining factor in granting citizenship.  Israel grants Jews, even converts, automatic citizenship.  At least that is what their government website says.   Here in America we don't operate like that.  Religion cannot, by law, be a determining factor.


Acquisition of Israeli Nationality



_
For the purposes of this Law, "Jew" means a person who was born of a Jewish mother, or *has converted to Judaism* and is *not a member of another religion.*

*Israeli citizenship becomes effective on the day of arrival in the country* or of receipt of an oleh's certificate, whichever is later. _


----------



## Indeependent (Apr 26, 2014)

montelatici said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > bluesman said:
> ...



Someone in my neighborhood has been living in Israel on a visa for 6 months.
She is still unemployed.
She has a limited amount of time in which to find gainful employment or the Israeli government sends her back to the US.
How do I know?  She told me.


----------



## RoccoR (Apr 26, 2014)

montelatici,  _et al,_

Can you help me find the DoS Report?  I cannot seem to find it.



montelatici said:


> Even the sugar coated U.S. Department of State Reports confirm Israel's discrimination against non-Jews.  Neutral observers such as Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International are much more sanguine.
> 
> "U.S. State Department: Israel is not a tolerant society
> 
> Report claims Israel discriminates against Muslims, Reform Jews, Christians, women and Bedouin."


*(COMMENT)*

I've made every search I can, and don't find it.  All I can find is:

Report on Global Anti-Semitism

There is a DoS/DRL 2012 Report on International Religious Freedom: Israel and The Occupied Territories.  This report might be the one to which you refer.  What it says is:



			
				BUREAU OF DEMOCRACY said:
			
		

> There were reports of societal abuses and discrimination based on religious affiliation, belief, or practice. Prominent societal leaders, however, took positive steps to promote religious freedom. Some individuals and groups were responsible for discriminatory practices against Muslims, Christians, and non-Orthodox Jews. Relations among religious and ethnic groups--between Jews and non-Jews, Muslims and Christians, Arabs and non-Arabs, secular and religious Jews, and among the different streams of Judaism--were strained.
> 
> The U.S. government engaged in detailed discussions on religious freedom issues with the government and religious and civil society organizations. Embassy officials raised such issues as expanding the list of officially recognized religious groups, investigating religiously motivated acts of violence against minority religious groups, and the importance of a public response to vandalism of religious places.



I'm not sure it relays the same intention as the news article you cited.  It is always best to go directly to the source, to get a flavor for the intent.

I'm not sure that there is any country in the world where discrimination is totally void, especially in the Arab World.  Can you say your country is totally without discrimination?

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Roudy (Apr 26, 2014)

bluesman said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > bluesman said:
> ...


Hah? Why is it racist for Jews to have their own country?  There are plenty of Muslim countries with the title Islamic before their names.  You are simply an ignorant person, that's all.  

Israel is, and will always be, the eternal homeland of the Jews.  Get over it.  This is a spiritual relational ship that Jews have had with Israel for over 3000 years, that is beyond the understanding of an intellectual midget like Boozeman to comprehend.


----------



## Roudy (Apr 26, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> montelatici,  _et al,_
> 
> Can you help me find the DoS Report?  I cannot seem to find it.
> 
> ...


Yep, it copies information from a hate site, then posts a link from a totally different site.  I've caught Montelatici doing this before. This should be a violation of the board rules.  

If you actually read the link that montelatici provides, the page is pretty complementary of the way Israel conducts itself in this arena.


----------



## toastman (Apr 26, 2014)

Roudy said:


> bluesman said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Very well said Roudy

 

POS repped you


----------



## Indofred (Apr 26, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Hah? Why is it racist for Jews to have their own country?  There are plenty of Muslim countries with the title Islamic before their names. .



Please name a Muslim majority country where you have to be a Muslim to have automatic right of citizenship.
Thanks in advance.


----------



## Roudy (Apr 27, 2014)

Indofred said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Hah? Why is it racist for Jews to have their own country?  There are plenty of Muslim countries with the title Islamic before their names. .
> ...


Should I start from the top?.  Saudi Arabia.  The "cradle of Islam".  You're welcome.


----------



## Roudy (Apr 27, 2014)

Indofred said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Hah? Why is it racist for Jews to have their own country?  There are plenty of Muslim countries with the title Islamic before their names. .
> ...


sec1

Article (10): 

The Yemeni woman who marries a Muslim foreigner retains the Yemeni nationality, unless she should desire to relinquish her nationality and establishes this desire upon marriage or during the continuity of the marriage and the law of the country of her husband enjoins her in his nationality. If the marriage contract of such woman is legally void she shall continue to retain her Yemeni nationality.


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## Roudy (Apr 27, 2014)

Indofred said:


> Roudy said:
> 
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> > Hah? Why is it racist for Jews to have their own country?  There are plenty of Muslim countries with the title Islamic before their names. .
> ...


Marriage in Jordan | Embassy of the United States

Marriage in Jordan
The U.S. Embassy in Amman cannot perform marriages in Jordan, even for U.S. citizens.

Any person wishing to marry in Jordan must do so according to Jordanian law. In Jordan there are no civil marriages and all marriages must be performed according to a recognized religious tradition. While Muslim men may marry non-Muslim women, Muslim women are forbidden from marrying non-Muslim men.

If you are marrying according to the Muslim tradition, then the marriage must be performed by a sheikh and according to the laws of the Sharia Court. If you are marrying according to the Christian tradition, then the marriage must be performed according to the Ecclesiastical court. Those interested in marrying in Jordan should contact a Jordanian religious figure to learn of the latest requirements.


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## Indofred (Apr 27, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Indofred said:
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Please prove your claim.
I asked if you have automatic right of citizenship to any country if you're Muslim.
You claim Saudi - prove it.


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## Indofred (Apr 27, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Indofred said:
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Excellent bullshit.
Where does that say anything about the husband, or any other Muslim, getting automatic citizenship.
It doesn't - you tried bullshit but got busted.


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## Indofred (Apr 27, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Indofred said:
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Still no right of citizenship, only a story about the various religions having a religious ceremony.

0/10 - must try harder.


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## SAYIT (Apr 27, 2014)

bluesman said:


> aris2chat said:
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You can wiggle and squirm all you like, Princess, but your initial complaint  (bold above) was bogus and you still haven't had the courage or integrity to admit it. 
One need not be Jewish to gain Israeli citizenship.


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## SAYIT (Apr 27, 2014)

Indofred said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Hah? Why is it racist for Jews to have their own country?  There are plenty of Muslim countries with the title Islamic before their names. .
> ...



Maldives. One must not only be Muslim to hold citizenship, all others were stripped of citizenship just a couple of years ago. The practice of any other religion is strictly prohibited. 

...Islam is the official religion of the Maldives and open practice of any other religion is forbidden and liable to prosecution. Article 2 of the revised constitution says that the republic "is based on the principles of Islam." Article nine says that "a non-Muslim may not become a citizen"; Article ten says that "no law contrary to any principle of Islam can be applied". Article nineteen states that "citizens are free to participate in or carry out any activity that is not expressly prohibited by sharia [Islamic law] or by the law."

Maldives - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Maldives - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Andylusion (Apr 27, 2014)

bluesman said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
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> > bluesman said:
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The very link you gave, also showed alternative methods by which someone can gain legal Israeli citizenship, not tied to Judaism. 

_Acquisition of Nationality by Naturalization

Adults may acquire Israeli citizenship by naturalization at the discretion of the Minister of the Interior and subject to a number of requirements, such as:

    they must have resided in Israel for three years out of the five years preceding the day of submission of the application.

    they are entitled to reside in Israel permanently and have settled or intend to settle in Israel;

    they have renounced their prior nationality, or have proved that they will cease to be foreign nationals upon becoming Israeli citizens.

The Minister of the Interior may exempt an applicant from some of these requirements._​
That came from YOUR link.   Clearly your own information proves that one is not absolutely required to be a practicing Jew, to get citizenship to Israel.

That said....    Hello.... Israel is a country for Jews.  That's why it was established.

I'm sorry, you people need to chill out.   You can't have it both ways.

*Anti-Jewish Logic 101:    Let's kill, harass, expel, and push out Jews all over the world.   Then when they go to the only country in the world that doesn't harm them, let's be pissed off because they created a pro-Jewish state!*


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## Indofred (Apr 27, 2014)

SAYIT said:


> Indofred said:
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Yes, yes, yes - but where does it say any or all Muslims can get citizenship?
Israel is the only country that guarantees citizenship to all of one religion.
If you're a Jew, you can pack your bags and be guaranteed a welcome, along with a shiny new passport.

My question was, can you name a Muslim country that does the same for Muslims?

So far, loads of bullshit but no answers.


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 27, 2014)

bluesman said:


> Roudy said:
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> and if someone happens to be a muslim, then it is difficult for them to become a citizen.



And, specifically excluded are the natives who want to return to their homes.


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## Indeependent (Apr 27, 2014)

Indofred said:


> SAYIT said:
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First of all, 99.9999999999999999999999% of the Middle Eastern terrain is comprised of Muslim nations.
I know that the ultra tiny strip of land owned by Jews is driving the Moslem homicidal psychos insane, especially since that tiny strip of land contains about 1 billionth of the population of the Moslems psychos and still keeps feeding their asses to the sand in one military defeat after another.

Second of all, doesn't a Muslim have to be certified as a overly temperamental homicidal psychopath in order to gain citizenship to a Middle Eastern Moslem nation? even THEY  have standards, you know.


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## toastman (Apr 27, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


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Their homes are not there anymore


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 27, 2014)

toastman said:


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Why not?

Did somebody steal them?


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## toastman (Apr 27, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
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They were demolished when 5 Arab armies attacked Israel, forcing Israel to advance militarily .


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 27, 2014)

toastman said:


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Big fat lie!

Can you prove what you say?


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## Roudy (Apr 27, 2014)

Indofred said:


> Roudy said:
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Stop whining you illiterate fool.  The law is very clear about making being a Muslim a requirement for obtaining and / or retaining citizenship:



> *The Yemeni woman who marries a Muslim foreigner retains the Yemeni nationality*


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## Roudy (Apr 27, 2014)

Indofred said:


> Roudy said:
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Being a Muslim is part of the requirements.  Saudi Arabia doesn't even allow non Muslims to visit as tourists, let alone allow them to be CITIZENS, you dipshit. Funny how you claim to be a Muslim and you don't even know these basic things.


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## Roudy (Apr 27, 2014)

Indofred said:


> SAYIT said:
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Actually so far you've been proven wrong, but refused to accept it.


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## Roudy (Apr 27, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> Indofred said:
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Yes, for example Indo would make a perfect candidate for citizenship to any of these Islamic hellholes like Pakistan, Yemen, or Afghanistan.


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## SAYIT (Apr 27, 2014)

Indofred said:


> SAYIT said:
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My bad ... I misread your intent. I'm still responding to Blue's camel crap ("...it is a fact that Israel currently requires a person to be a particular religion to be a citizen") and your lame efforts to defend it.
So the obvious question is: Who the fuck cares for whom and why Israel guarantees citizenship and why does it bug you? Aren't Israel's immigration and citizenship rules the biz of the Israelis and aren't you glad every Jew has a refuge in a storm?


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## aris2chat (Apr 27, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Indofred said:
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Even in a jewish homeland, not all jews can become citizens.  Reform and those who converted to judaism are not all recognized.
The right of return is preserve the jewish people as a heritage and bloodline rather than be exterminated or die off and become a race of ancient history alone.
Not all jews want to become Israeli or do military service.  Some don't want to learn hebrew beyond reading of the Torah, many can't even do that much.  Some are spiritual only, secular and still other would rather blend into what ever nationality they hold and don't want to be singled out or subject to persecution by hatemongers and racists.
Any people of any faith can apply to become an Israeli citizen.  If they are willing to abide by the requirements if they are accepted and have not engaged in terrorism against Israel.
People born to one or both american parents but not born in the US can become citizen, it must be applied for.  Those that have duel citizenship as children might have to make a choice when they turn 18.  Not all countries will allow you to keep dual identity.
Giving jews the right of return is allowing those who have jewish parents to apply for Israeli citizenship.  Jews are both a religion and a nation.


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## toastman (Apr 27, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
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Whats the lie?


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## Indeependent (Apr 27, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
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Sure...
It's on YouTube along with the obvious bullshit you've been spouting.
After all, if it ain't on YouTube, it didn't happen!


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## Indofred (Apr 27, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> > My question was, can you name a Muslim country that does the same for Muslims?
> ...



In other words, you can't name a country that does what Israel does.
Pity you can't bring yourself to admit it.


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## Indofred (Apr 27, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Yes, for example Indo would make a perfect candidate for citizenship to any of these Islamic hellholes like Pakistan, Yemen, or Afghanistan.



*OMG NO WAY*

I wouldn't be even slightly interested in living in a country that runs like any on that list.
Same goes for many of the examples posters here have mentioned whilst failing to disprove my assertion, the only country in the world that has automatic citizenship for any religious group, is Israel.
It is true, some more extreme Muslim governments do idiotic things, just as bad as Israel, but none have the same laws that allow you to take citizenship there, regardless of other factors, just because you are of a given religion.


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## toastman (Apr 27, 2014)

Indofred said:


> Indeependent said:
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Israel wants to retain its Jewish character. It's way harder for Israel to do that for them because of how small Israel is. That's why they have laws like that.
Not because they hate Non Jews .

Why would Muslim states need a law like that??? They have more than enough land and more then enough Muslims to make sure all their countries will remain a Muslim majority.


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## Book of Jeremiah (Apr 27, 2014)

Exactly, Toastman.


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## montelatici (Apr 27, 2014)

toastman said:


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Lots of countries would like to keep their character, but they don't base their immigration laws on the religion of the applicant.  If Ireland limited immigration to Roman Catholics they would be kicked out of the EU.  You people are absurd, and the peanut gallery is even more ridiculous.


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## Andylusion (Apr 27, 2014)

Indofred said:


> Indeependent said:
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No problem.  I'll admit it.   No other country does what Israel does, and I'm ok with it, and they should do it, and I support them in doing it.



toastman said:


> Israel wants to retain its Jewish character. It's way harder for Israel to do that for them because of how small Israel is. That's why they have laws like that.
> Not because they hate Non Jews .
> 
> Why would Muslim states need a law like that??? They have more than enough land and more then enough Muslims to make sure all their countries will remain a Muslim majority.



But it's not just that even.    Yes, they do want to maintain their culture, like all nations do.

But that's only half of the point.   Do you know of any other culture or people that had their country absolutely wiped off the face of the planet, dispersed throughout all the nations of the world, and was then systematically persecuted by all the nations of the Earth, and then was murdered, harassed, coerced and exiled from those nations, and the only safe country was one reconstituted country back in their ancient homeland?

If the Celts in Scotland had the homogenous society the history Israelites did, and if the Celts had been expelled from Scotland when the Romans showed up, forced to live scattered among all the countries of the world for 1,000 years, and if they were then subjected to mass killing, genocide and expulsion from those countries, and it got to the point they were given a chance to form a new Celtic nation on their historic homeland....

I can promise you, the Celts would have absolute allowance of any Celt back into their new nation, no matter where they are from.     In fact if Ex-Americans were being expelled, killed, harassed, in all the countries of the Earth, we would give them automatic citizenship to get back to the one safe country too.


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## Indeependent (Apr 27, 2014)

montelatici said:


> toastman said:
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Most countries base their immigration laws on lowering wages.


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## Roudy (Apr 27, 2014)

Indofred said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, for example Indo would make a perfect candidate for citizenship to any of these Islamic hellholes like Pakistan, Yemen, or Afghanistan.
> ...


Ha ha ha.  Retard doesn't know that all vast majority of Arab Muslims that live in Israel prefer to live there over ANY Arab or Muslim country.  You just foot your foot in your mouth.


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## Indeependent (Apr 27, 2014)

Roudy said:


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## toastman (Apr 27, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Indofred said:
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Oh common Roudy, you know that the fact that all those Arabs living in Israel is just a Zionist trick!
You see, the Zionists actually pay these Arabs and their families to live in Israel so they could make it seem that Israel not an apartheid state!
These Arabs don't actually want to live in Israel, they are just doing it for the money!


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## Indofred (Apr 27, 2014)

toastman said:


> Indofred said:
> 
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I'll bet the Palestinians wanted to retain theirs as well.


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## toastman (Apr 27, 2014)

Indofred said:


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It could have been retained had Arafat accepted the offer he was given.


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## Indeependent (Apr 27, 2014)

Indofred said:


> toastman said:
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They ran East towards Jordan and the Jordanian border guards stopped them dead in their tracks; sometimes literally.


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## bluesman (Apr 28, 2014)

Roudy said:


> bluesman said:
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I don't support any government mixing religion with politics.  And I am not in favor of any government using religion as a qualifier to gain citizenship.  I know people from all over the world have access to this forum but I happen to be an American.  It just goes against what our country is all about in terms of the founders.   I don't think our government has any business supporting countries with purely un-American values.  If you happen to disagree with our historical values, then you are free to do so.  I do not begrudge anyone from individually having un-American values.  However, it is just not for me.  I think the founders hit the nail on head when they made it un-constitutional for the government to give any preference based on religion.   I am sure that where ever you are from there must be different values but I do not apologize for supporting what our founders did when they first put their asses on the line and stood up to the king.


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## Phoenall (Apr 28, 2014)

montelatici said:


> toastman said:
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Wrong again little boy as converts find it hard to get Jewish citizenship, but Racial Jews don't. So it is nothing to do with religion at all, just race. It is also a step back to the terms of the Mandate set by the LoN that decreed all the worlds Jews were to be given citizenship of the reconstructed NATIONAL HOME OF THE JEWS


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## Phoenall (Apr 28, 2014)

Indofred said:


> toastman said:
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 Do you means their Egyptian, Syrian, Iraqi, Iranian, Saudi  character, cos they have no Palestinian character unless that is their TERRORISM and ISLAMONAZISM


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## Roudy (Apr 28, 2014)

bluesman said:


> Roudy said:
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You don't understand and it isn't "Un American", in fact the system of govt. In Israel is as American as it gets.  Israel was voted for as a JEWISH State, by the 51 member states of the League of Nations (which later became the UN) as a haven and shelter for Jews who are escaping persecution, anti Semetism, and oppression.  

The region was also divided into many "Islamic" states by the same governing body.  While a quarter of Israel's population are Arab Muslims with equal rights as the rest of the Israelis, non of the Arab or Muslim states can boast a non Muslim minority that big.  Yet ignorant morons like you keep calling Israel the "racist" nation.


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## Roudy (Apr 28, 2014)

Indofred said:


> toastman said:
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Retain what?  Palestine wasn't a country or a state, ever in history, nor was there an Arab identity called "Palestinian".  The British with the approval of the League of Nations created an "Arab Palestine" for the Arabs, in Jordan, and a "Jewish Palestine" in Israel.


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## bluesman (Apr 28, 2014)

Roudy said:


> bluesman said:
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I get it that there is a "rah rah" section for Israel and they would say Israeli shit tastes delicious.  However, I didn't say Israel was a "racist nation".  That would be an indictment of all of its citizens.  I did say that the government favors Jews in terms of becoming a citizen.  I posted a link to the Israeli government website showing that Jews are automatic citizens.  I posted a link to an Israeli Supreme Court ruling.  It isn't a question of boasting a minority.  South Africa had plenty of non-whites but they still got shit treatment.  The bottom line is that I am posting facts and the response is to call me a Jew-hater just because I am not pretending along with the Israeli apologists.   Israel has some fucked up policies that are contrary to the founding principles of the United States.  We do not grant, or even consider, religion when granting citizenship.  It is specifically prohibited.  In Israel it is completely opposite from that.  If you are the religion of the first class citizens, then you get automatic citizenship.


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## SAYIT (Apr 28, 2014)

bluesman said:


> Roudy said:
> 
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> > bluesman said:
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But that's not what you said. You did say "...it is a fact that Israel currently requires a person to be a particular religion to be a citizen" and despite ample opportunity to admit you had lied, you simply slithered away.
No guts ... no glory.


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## montelatici (Apr 28, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Indofred said:
> 
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"The British with the approval of the League of Nations created an "Arab Palestine" for the Arabs, in Jordan, and a "Jewish Palestine" in Israel."

No, the League of Nations mandated the creation of a single state of Palestine which would host a Jewish national home.  The League of Nations never proposed two states, they proposed a single state where the religious and civil rights of all the citizens would be protected.  The UN was who promulgated the partition in contravention of the Mandate.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Apr 28, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
> 
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*Political rights to self-determination as a polity for Arabs were guaranteed by the League of Nations in four other mandates  in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and later Trans-Jordan [today Jordan].*

Mandate For Palestine - The Legal Aspects of Jewish Rights


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## montelatici (Apr 28, 2014)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> montelatici said:
> 
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> > Roudy said:
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So what?  The Mandate for Palestine envisioned a single state which would host a Jewish national home where the religious and civil rights of the indigenous people would be protected.  That's not what happened.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Apr 28, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
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The San Remo Mandate gave a homeland for the Jews in what was known then as Palestine and a home for the arabs in the surrounding countries of Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and Jordan.  

The religious and civil rights of the indigenous people were protected.  Shame they kept waging wars on the Jews.  They are their own worst enemy.  Palestinian mentality as it is known on these forums.  Never mind - one day they will get the message.


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## aris2chat (Apr 28, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
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No the land was supposed to be divided, creating a jewish state and an arab state.
It ended up trying to create two arab states.


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## montelatici (Apr 28, 2014)

*No the land was supposed to be divided, creating a jewish state and an arab state.*

Wrong:

From the Preamble"

"... in favor of the establishment *in Palestine *of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities *in Palestine*, 

The only state was to be Palestine.  They said "national home for the Jewish people in Palestine", they did not say state or country for the Jewish people.

Article 2:

"The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing *the country* under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions, and *also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion.*

Notice it doesn't say "countries" plural, it says "country".


The Avalon Project : The Palestine Mandate


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## Sweet_Caroline (Apr 28, 2014)

montelatici said:


> *No the land was supposed to be divided, creating a jewish state and an arab state.*
> 
> Wrong:
> 
> ...



That pertains to what was known as Palestine.  The arabs were given their own countries as I mentioned before.  Stop trying to twist it.


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## aris2chat (Apr 28, 2014)

montelatici said:


> *No the land was supposed to be divided, creating a jewish state and an arab state.*
> 
> Wrong:
> 
> ...



25. In the territories lying between the Jordan and the eastern boundary of Palestine as ultimately determined, the Mandatory shall be entitled, with the consent of the Council of the League of Nations, to postpone or withhold application of such provisions of this mandate as he may consider inapplicable to the existing local conditions, and to make such provision for the administration of the territories as he may consider suitable to those conditions, provided that no action shall be taken which is inconsistent with the provisions of Articles 15, 16 and 18.


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## montelatici (Apr 28, 2014)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > *No the land was supposed to be divided, creating a jewish state and an arab state.*
> ...



I am not twisting anything.  The Mandate for Palestine is clear on what it says, and nothing done in other Mandates by any other Mandatory(ies) have any effect on the legal terms of the Palestine Mandate. I says what it says. 

" in favor of the establishment *in Palestine *of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities *in Palestine*...."

It says "in Palestine" twice, never says a Jewish state or country, doesn't say "state" or "country", besides Palestine, at all.  

And, to further make it clear, the Preamble also states:

"and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home *in that country*" referring to Palestine, which was not yet a country but would become one that would host a national home for the Jewish people.

Can it get any clearer than that?


The Avalon Project : The Palestine Mandate


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## Sweet_Caroline (Apr 28, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
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A national home for the Jewish people in the country called Palestine, and of course a home for the arabs in Syria, Lebanon and Jordan as I quoted above. Wow, how difficult is it to understand?  The Jews were given back their country known as Palestine, and the arabs given surrounding countries.  It can't be any clearer.  
Just because you don't like to hear it, doesn't make it false.


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## montelatici (Apr 28, 2014)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
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How could that possibly be, when it clearly states that nothing could be done that might "prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities *in Palestine*...."

How could establishing a Jewish ruled state not "prejudice the civil and religious rights of the existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine"?  Remember non-Jews were about 90% of the population.  The Mandate had no such intention.

[/B]of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities *in Palestine*...."


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## Sweet_Caroline (Apr 28, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
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That was the wording of the Mandate.  
Civil and religious rights of other peoples *were not prejudiced.  *


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## aris2chat (Apr 28, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



arab Israelis have the rights that come with citizenship.  Those that don't want to be Israel and live by the laws of Israel have left and now live in the WB, gaza and the refugee camps...or found jobs and applied for citizenship in other countries.

Palestinians did not have to leave, they made the choice to.  They choose to fight against the Israeli state instead of accepting it existence.  If palestinian are treated as hostile and excluded from entering Israel, it is due to their own actions.  If they object to not having equal right with Israeli, it because they choose not to be Israelis.


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## Phoenall (Apr 28, 2014)

montelatici said:


> *No the land was supposed to be divided, creating a jewish state and an arab state.*
> 
> Wrong:
> 
> ...






 Yes Palestine the area on the map that was about to see two Hashemite kingdoms formed in it. It also stated THE RECONSTRUCTION OF THE JEWISH NATIONAL HOME, which means the country that the Jews lost 2000 years ago.

 Yes it stated NATIONAL HOME as in NATION

 Yes the country as yet unnamed that was to become Israel. All the maps say NATION OF ISREAL from the period, they do not say NATION OF PALESTINE


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## RoccoR (Apr 28, 2014)

Sweet_Caroline, montelatici,  _et al,_

Remember that these documents were created by men based on a 19th Century understanding of what civil and religious rights meant.  



Sweet_Caroline said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Sweet_Caroline said:
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

So, when the authors of these very early 20th Century documents say "nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities *in Palestine*...." --- what did THEY really means?


The Balfour Declaration,  -----  the San Remo Conference, nor the Palestine Mandate extend any specific authoritative "rights" to the Jewish people.  
The Balfour Declaration was neither an independent authority or a directive.  It was an expression of intent to extend its "best endeavors" to facilitate the achievement of a "national home for the Jewish people."
The San Remo Convention was more multifaceted, yet still not a independent authority or a directive extending any special rights to the Jewish People.
The San Remo Convention was an agreement to attempt to achieve the facilitation of the Balfour Declaration of a "national home for the Jewish people."
The San Remo Convention was an agreement on the framework (the Mandate) to bring meaning to Article 22 of the Covenant.

The Mandate was the product of the San Remo Convention and the League of Nation authority for the assigned Mandatory.

Under the terms of the Mandate, to award the country either to the Arabs or to the Jews, or even to partition it between them was not authorized.  That is why an additional authority [GA/RES/181(II)] was required.

There were a few "rights" addressed _(civil and religious rights)_.  What they did include:

Rights and free access to the Holy Places, religious buildings and sites and the free exercise of worship, and protection of Moslem sacred shrines.
Freedom to maintain indigenous schools for the education of its culture. 
Freedom to manage financial obligations legitimately incurred debt.
The protection of pensions or gratuities (inheritance).
Real Estate laws and the protection of private property.
But nothing else specifically was mentioned.  It has always been assumed that civil property rights were included.  And still today, that assumption seems valid.

When trying to translate what the authors intent was, one has to think like a early 20th Century author with a 19th Century education and classical outlook on humanity.  But you cannot include all the advancement made in summation of the 20th Century and apply 21st Century logic to them.  That would not be representative of their true intent.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Kondor3 (Apr 28, 2014)

A good point.

Difficult to try to get a mind schooled in the late 19th to translate precisely into the early 21st, in connection with social issues, perceptions, culture, and even some types of rights.


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## montelatici (Apr 28, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Sweet_Caroline said:
> ...



"Palestinians did not have to leave,"

Now there, there. Do you really expect informed people to believe the Zionist propaganda.  Christian and Muslim villages had been attacked by Irgun, Haganah and Stern Gang types, and villagers were being slaughtered, you really think they "did not have to leave".  You are on an alternative universe.


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## montelatici (Apr 28, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> Sweet_Caroline, montelatici,  _et al,_
> 
> Remember that these documents were created by men based on a 19th Century understanding of what civil and religious rights meant.
> 
> ...



" nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities "

Ok genius, do you see anything that can be misinterpreted in the above?  And note the word "might" rather than will.  Nothing that "might" prejudice the civil rights was prohibited, and forcing the Christians and Muslims to be ruled by Jews (which was not the intent of the Mandate at all) certainly "might" prejudice the rights of the non-Jews.


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## montelatici (Apr 28, 2014)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Sweet_Caroline said:
> ...



Of course they were.  If the had't there would not be Palestinian refugees or Palestinians penned up in Gulags.  But it isn't the point, the word was "might" not "could", so putting non-Jews under the rule of Jews under the Partition was in contravention of the terms of the Mandate.  It is obvious that putting non-Jews under the rule of Jews "might" prejudice the civil rights of the non-Jews.  And it certainly did.


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## RoccoR (Apr 28, 2014)

montelatici,  _et al,_

In this case the term "might" is an expression of a "probability" interfering with the object of the directive:  "civil and religious rights"



montelatici said:


> "nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities"​
> Ok genius, do you see anything that can be misinterpreted in the above?  And note the word "might" rather than will.  Nothing that "might" prejudice the civil rights was prohibited, and forcing the Christians and Muslims to be ruled by Jews (which was not the intent of the Mandate at all) certainly "might" prejudice the rights of the non-Jews.


*(COMMENT)*

Jewish State self-governance does not imply an interference with the _(19th Century understanding of - previously listed)_ "civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities."

While it is true that the intent did not explicitly require a Jewish State, it did not preclude it.

The Allied Powers, coming of age in the very early 19th Century, did not envision the quibbling over individual words and phases by a 21st Century world citizenry empowered by the internet.  They did not envision critiques by outside observers totally without an understanding of early 20th Century diplomacy and the political importance and concerns they had in the day.  I'm quite sure, if they were still around, they would adjudge much of our commentary as "how totally absurd!"  Civil and Religious Rights had a totally different meaning to them; and were totally different and mutually exclusive of self-governance and sovereignty.  Land ownership was not _(as often done here)_ relevant to sovereign territorial leadership or a related extension to government control and rule.  The "Future of Palestine" was but a small sliver of territory at a time when four mighty empires collapsed and royal house were falling like flies.

Remember, a vast majority of the Arabs concerned were citizens of the Ottoman Empire; an enemy population.  

Most Respectfully,
R


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## montelatici (Apr 28, 2014)

"While it is true that the intent did not explicitly require a Jewish State, it did not preclude it."

It precluded a state that "might" prejudice the civil rights of the non-Jews.  In those days, the potential prejudice of the civil rights of one people over  another on a religious basis was more expected than today. So, sorry, your dog won't hunt.


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## Indofred (Apr 28, 2014)

The pro Israel lot can bleat on all they like but they can't get past facts.

There was no Israel for thousands of years and there's only one now because of daft political moves, mass immigration and wars.
States that start with a war tend to end with a war. Sadly, that'll involve a lot of innocent people getting hurt.


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## RoccoR (Apr 28, 2014)

montelatici,  _et al,_

This is nonsense.



montelatici said:


> "While it is true that the intent did not explicitly require a Jewish State, it did not preclude it."
> 
> It precluded a state that "might" prejudice the civil rights of the non-Jews.  In those days, the potential prejudice of the civil rights of one people over  another on a religious basis was more expected than today. So, sorry, your dog won't hunt.


*(COMMENT)*

WWII did not start over the annihilation (Holocaust) of the Jews, it started over territorial control by armed invasion.  And even at that --- nearly all of Europe was seized before the Allied Powers took action.  Religious and civil rights were embryonic concepts; even tolerated by blind eye. 

Nearly all the contemporary concepts come post-World War II.

Universal Declaration of Human Rights - December 1948
Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples - December 1960
International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights - December 1966
Universal realization of the right of peoples to self-determination - December 1994
Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples - September 2007
With the exception of the block of laws, treaties and conventions dealing with slavery from the late 1920's, nearly every contemporary protocol on civil and religious rights is a post war invention.  

My dog hunts well.  If you go to the UNIVERSAL HUMAN RIGHTS INSTRUMENTS page, you can find them all listed, with links.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Kondor3 (Apr 28, 2014)

Indofred said:


> The pro Israel lot can bleat on all they like but they can't get past facts.
> 
> There was no Israel for thousands of years and there's only one now because of daft political moves, mass immigration and wars.
> States that start with a war tend to end with a war. Sadly, that'll involve a lot of innocent people getting hurt.


And just who is it, that you think is going to destroy Israel with war?


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## RoccoR (Apr 28, 2014)

Indofred,  _et al,_

Let's make this clear; perfectly clear.  Israel does not have to rely on ancient history to establish its right to exist.  For that matter, neither do the Palestinians.



Indofred said:


> The pro Israel lot can bleat on all they like but they can't get past facts.
> 
> There was no Israel for thousands of years and there's only one now because of daft political moves, mass immigration and wars.
> States that start with a war tend to end with a war. Sadly, that'll involve a lot of innocent people getting hurt.



*(COMMENT)*

Just as the PLO establish the modern day Arab State of Palestine by invoking contemporary laws, protocols and resolutions; so it was done with the establishment of the Jewish State of Israel.

_"There was no nation of Palestine - ever - for thousands of years and there's only one now because of daft political moves and wars."_
_And they are not doing too well._​
Fewer innocent people get hurt if their leadership follows a basic premise.



			
				DECLARATION ON PRINCIPLES OF INTERNATIONAL LAW said:
			
		

> Every State has the duty to refrain from the threat or use of force to violate the existing international boundaries of another State or as a means of solving international disputes, including territorial disputes and problems concerning frontiers of States.



Most Respectfully,
R


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## aris2chat (Apr 28, 2014)

Indofred said:


> The pro Israel lot can bleat on all they like but they can't get past facts.
> 
> There was no Israel for thousands of years and there's only one now because of daft political moves, mass immigration and wars.
> States that start with a war tend to end with a war. Sadly, that'll involve a lot of innocent people getting hurt.



There was no palestine as a state, sanjuk or authority.  under the arab/muslim empires.

Jews could name their state what ever they wanted to.  Israel was their choice.  Why would they call their state palestine?  They were Israelis and wanted their country to reflect what and who they were.


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## Indofred (Apr 28, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> > The pro Israel lot can bleat on all they like but they can't get past facts.
> ...



World politics change, the rich, powerful nations get weaker and others take over.
This, eventually, will happen to your pimp, America.
When the American taxpayers wise up or just get fed up of you, your military power will fade and you;ll become weak.
This will lead to other countries attacking you and you'll fall.

Israel is simply a shit stain on the underwear of life.
Watch out for the washing machine.


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## bluesman (Apr 29, 2014)

SAYIT said:


> bluesman said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



That is correct.  If you are not a citizen and want to "be a citizen", then being Jewish is a major determining factor.  Jews are automatic citizens and "others" are given the run-around.   If you think it is a good thing that a country grants automatic citizenship based on religion, that is your right.  However, here in America, the true constitutionalists will never think that is a good thing.  I am an American and don't see how backing up fucked up Israeli government policies is the best interest of America.  I am allowed to have that opinion.  I don't care for any government where religion is part of the government.  Anybody who doesn't get that is probably not that big on American values.


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## Phoenall (Apr 29, 2014)

montelatici said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...






Will you believe the document submitted to the UN in regards to this, when Israel declared independence and begged the arabs to stay in peace as full Israeli citizens. This document is enshrined in INTERNATIONAL LAW and shows that you ISLAMONAZI PROPAGANDISTS are LYING to demonise and incite racial hatred of the Jews.


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## Phoenall (Apr 29, 2014)

montelatici said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Sweet_Caroline, montelatici,  _et al,_
> ...





 Can you see were it does not say the civil and religious rights as understood in the 21C, as the civil and religious rights of 1929 are so much different than those of today. Back then many women were seen as chattels and not as human beings. Many arab Palestinians were literal slaves to the Ottoman rulers with no actual civil or religious rights. Like the Christians of the area who were all dhimmi and had no rights but those the muslims gave them.

 So stop thinking 2014 rights and think 1920's rights and you will see that the partition did not breach this clause AT THE TIME


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## Phoenall (Apr 29, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...






 That was not the fault of the U.N., Israel, LoN or the mandate, but it was the fault of the arab muslims intent on genocide so they could steal the land. It was them that penned them up in death camps all over the M.E, with the worst of these being in Egypt and Jordan. Putting non Jews under the rule of the Jews was not in contravention of the terms of the mandate at all. This is bourn out by the fact the non Jews in Israel have the same LEGAL RIGHTS as the Jews, and can vote, stand for election, buy property and teach their religion without hindrance.  On the other hand putting the Jews under the control of PSYCHOPATHIC ISLAMONAZI TERRORIST SCUM would have resulted in the demise of every Jew from Palestine and the theft of all their property and goods.

 As the legal UN documents submitted in may 1948 state the arabs are free to stay in peace and become full Israeli citizens, there is no corresponding legal UN document from any arab muslim nations giving the Jews the sane rights.  Now why is this ?


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## Phoenall (Apr 29, 2014)

montelatici said:


> "While it is true that the intent did not explicitly require a Jewish State, it did not preclude it."
> 
> It precluded a state that "might" prejudice the civil rights of the non-Jews.  In those days, the potential prejudice of the civil rights of one people over  another on a religious basis was more expected than today. So, sorry, your dog won't hunt.





 So then smart guy were is the intent in this legal document to remove the civil and religious rights of the non Jews.

Declaration of Israel's Independence, 1948 . Truman . WGBH American Experience | PBS

*On November 29, 1947, the General Assembly of the United Nations adopted a Resolution for the establishment of an independent Jewish State in Palestine, and called upon the inhabitants of the country to take such steps as may be necessary on their part to put the plan into effect.*  INTERNATIONAL LAW


*This recognition by the United Nations of the right of the Jewish people to establish their Independent State may not be revoked. It is, moreover, the self-evident right of the Jewish people to be a nation, as all other nations, in its own Sovereign State.*
  INTERNATIONAL LAW

ACCORDINGLY, WE, the members of the National Council, representing the Jewish people in Palestine and the Zionist movement of the world, met together in solemn assembly today, the day of the termination of the British mandate for Palestine, by virtue of the natural and historic right of the Jewish and of the Resolution of the General Assembly of the United Nations,

HEREBY PROCLAIM the establishment of the Jewish State in Palestine, to be called ISRAEL.

WE HEREBY DECLARE that as from the termination of the Mandate at midnight, this night of the 14th and 15th May, 1948, and until the setting up of the duly elected bodies of the State in accordance with a Constitution, to be drawn up by a Constituent Assembly not later than the first day of October, 1948, the present National Council shall act as the provisional administration, shall constitute the Provisional Government of the State of Israel.

THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open to the immigration of Jews from all countries of their dispersion; will promote the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; will be based on the precepts of liberty, justice and peace taught by the Hebrew Prophets; will uphold the full social and political equality of all its citizens, without distinction of race, creed or sex; will guarantee full freedom of conscience, worship, education and culture; will safeguard the sanctity and inviolability of the shrines and Holy Places of all religions; and will dedicate itself to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be ready to cooperate with the organs and representatives of the United Nations in the implementation of the Resolution of the Assembly of November 29, 1947, and will take steps to bring about the Economic Union over the whole of Palestine.

We appeal to the United Nations to assist the Jewish people in the building of its State and to admit Israel into the family of nations.

*In the midst of wanton aggression, we yet call upon the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to return to the ways of peace and play their part in the development of the State, with full and equal citizenship and due representation in its bodies and institutions -- provisional or permanent.*
*INTERNATIONAL LAW*


We offer peace and unity to all the neighboring states and their peoples, and invite them to cooperate with the independent Jewish nation for the common good of all.

Our call goes out the Jewish people all over the world to rally to our side in the task of immigration and development and to stand by us in the great struggle for the fulfillment of the dream of generations -- the redemption of Israel.

With trust in Almighty God, we set our hand to this Declaration, at this Session of the Provisional State Council, in the city of Tel Aviv, on this Sabbath eve, the fifth of Iyar, 5708, the fourteenth day of May, 1948.


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## Phoenall (Apr 29, 2014)

Indofred said:


> The pro Israel lot can bleat on all they like but they can't get past facts.
> 
> There was no Israel for thousands of years and there's only one now because of daft political moves, mass immigration and wars.
> States that start with a war tend to end with a war. Sadly, that'll involve a lot of innocent people getting hurt.





 Just a shame that it is ISLAMONAZI TERRORIST SCUM that are being hurt isn't it ?...


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## Phoenall (Apr 29, 2014)

Indofred said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Indofred said:
> ...






 Wrong as Israel has the means to stay strong and build more advanced weapons to defend herself with. If America gets weak then the taxpayers will not have any say in matters, unless some muslim group decides to claim land for an Islamic state. As for Israel she managed to fight of other countries for 35 years without any help from anyone, many times with fewer numbers and less munitions.


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## Phoenall (Apr 29, 2014)

bluesman said:


> SAYIT said:
> 
> 
> > bluesman said:
> ...






 Actually not all "JEWS" are automatic citizens and many don't hit the criteria for being citizens either. For a start those without and Hebrew as a language need not apply, same with those who are recent converts.


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 29, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> Sweet_Caroline, montelatici,  _et al,_
> 
> Remember that these documents were created by men based on a 19th Century understanding of what civil and religious rights meant.
> 
> ...



Good post.



> The Balfour Declaration,  -----  the San Remo Conference, nor the Palestine Mandate extend any specific authoritative "rights" to the Jewish people.



None of these mentioned Israel, a Jewish state, or a country where Jews would rule over others. They all seem to contradict the notion of a Jewish state.


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## pbel (Apr 29, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



You are one comical ZioNazi...Did you expect flowers for maiming people since the Irgun to this moment...Israel is at War with Islam, a Religious type war long given up by the Western Powers...Fred is right, Empires come and go, Evolution even in Nations are always in flux.


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## Indofred (Apr 29, 2014)

Empires and rogue states turn up, live, murder and eventually, get stomped under the feet of the people they oppress.
Israel is no different.
Sooner or later, the American taxpayers will rebel, give Israel the finger and, as the country gets weaker, the surrounding nations will want their land back.

Happens every time; no mass murdering government ever lasts that long.

I give the place between 5 and 20 years.
A couple of years before the Berlin wall fell, very few people would have predicted it.
Same went for South Africa. It fell rapidly, with far greater ease than was expected.

Israel is dead, regardless of the rights and wrongs of that situation.
Many Jews will return to Europe, a lot to America, but where ever they go, memories of Israeli mass murder and oppression will follow.
The American right wing will probably see their chance to blame immigrant Jews for all America's problems and we'll see mass hatred.

Basically, business as usual but, without American tax payers funding that evil state, there will be no Muslim groups who care about attacking America.

Basically, all Muslim groups who engage in acts against America, do so because America funds Israel.
That is the base of many of America's problems.
Six million people, run by an evil government, cause more problems for America than the rest of the world.


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## Indofred (Apr 29, 2014)

> You will commit gross evil on earth, twice. You are destined to fall into great heights of arrogance.



The Romans did number one; who will do the next one?
Perhaps America, if the gross evil turns out to be 9/11.


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## toastman (Apr 29, 2014)

Indofred said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Indofred said:
> ...



False, Israel's neighbours are the shit stains on the underwear of life.

BTW, ever notice how Nazis like you always talk about how this and that WILL happen to Israel, but none of it ever happens?
After 66 years of hearing the same shit, it kind of gets old.
But I guess Muslims like yourself are taught to hate Israel and pray for their destruction at your mosque, right Nazi Fred?


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## toastman (Apr 29, 2014)

Indofred said:


> Empires and rogue states turn up, live, murder and eventually, get stomped under the feet of the people they oppress.
> Israel is no different.
> Sooner or later, the American taxpayers will rebel, give Israel the finger and, as the country gets weaker, the surrounding nations will want their land back.
> 
> ...



Mass murdering governments? You mean Muslim countries?


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## RoccoR (Apr 29, 2014)

P F Tinmore; Sweet_Caroline, montelatici,  _et al,_

There are a couple aspects of these documents that are misunderstood; ---- let's clarify them.



P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Sweet_Caroline, montelatici,  _et al,_
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

The Balfour Declaration drives the San Remo Agreement.   The San Remo Agreement drives the Mandate.


The Mandate was not a "law."  It was a directive and an authority.
It was a directive from the Allied Powers and League of Nations to the Mandatory (UK).  It was not intended to be interpreted by external influences outside the process.  It is not a fundamental law to be used by other than the three parties under which the Mandate applies.  The Allied Powers and the League of Nations speak to the Mandatory through this document; not the Arab People and the the Jewish People.
The Mandate is an authority from the membership of in the League of Nations.  It speaks directly to the Mandatory about the expectations the membership has in the Administration of the territory and the people over which the League gave the Mandatory responsibility.  The authority, permissions and limitations in the Mandate apply only to the Mandatory; not the Arab People or the Jewish People.
The Mandate was not a tool for either the Arab or the Jewish people to use, but a basic guide under which the Mandatory functioned; intended for the Mandatory and not the Arab or Jewish People.
The Mandate, written by the League and Allied Powers, was not unchangeable.  The Allied Powers and the League could mold it to address specific needs through The Palestine Order in Council.  The Mandate was not a set of laws like the "Ten Commandments."  The tenants could be shaped.
Finally, the recommendations by the UN Special Committee on Palestine and the subsequent Resolution adopted by the General Assembly of 1947 was not implemented under the Mandate.  It was coordinated to be implemented after the termination of the Mandate.  GA/RES/181(II) and the establishment of the Jewish State was implemented under the UN Trustee Program and NOT the League Covenant Mandate Program. 

The phrase "Jewish National Home" is not a single entity concept; but a diverse collection of potentials.  A national home is a open ended set in which a number of possible political solutions are described without being preferential or specific to one over another.
A single state, safe haven territory in which Jewish People were free to immigrate without objection is one possible "national home" solution.
A union of the Arab and Jewish political interest created either by treaty or an adopted common constitution, with the central government being required to provide support for all members.
A federated state in which the political entities (Arab and Jewish) make a formation characterized by a union of partially self-governing regions (states or provinces) under a central government; with a the division of power between the Arab and Jewish constituents --- each contributing to a central government.
The two-state solution, in which the territory is divided and each constituent (Arab and Jewish) independently form individual and autonomous sovereignties.


There is no law, treaty or covenant that prevents or prohibits the League or the General Assembly from altering, modifying, changing or reinterpreting a resolution or mandate. Just as noting prevents your current government from doing the same with domestic law, ordinances, statutes, or regulations.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## toastman (Apr 29, 2014)

Indofred said:


> Empires and rogue states turn up, live, murder and eventually, get stomped under the feet of the people they oppress.
> Israel is no different.
> Sooner or later, the American taxpayers will rebel, give Israel the finger and, as the country gets weaker, the surrounding nations will want their land back.
> 
> ...



And in 5 to 20 years, Muslim Nazis like you will be saying that in 5 to 20 years, Israel will be destroyed. 
What a ridiculous post BTW. I always knee you were full of shit, but you've taken it to a whole new level.
Why you so angry Fred? Is it because Israel's birthday is coming up? Or because your prediction that Israel will be destroyed didn't occur? Or maybe it's because you're tired of seeing Israel thrive economically?
Wait, is it because Israel is sitting atop a gold mine of natural gas?

You know what Muslims like you have in common? They always say things about Israel that are not only not true, but that their Muslim countries are guilty of.

Say it with me Freddie boy:

AM ISRAEL CHAI!


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## montelatici (Apr 29, 2014)

toastman said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> > Empires and rogue states turn up, live, murder and eventually, get stomped under the feet of the people they oppress.
> ...



Maybe it will be the only state in history that a minority will be able to rule over a majority in an small land area under its control surrounded by a vast population (50 times or more Israel's) related culturally and religiously  to the majority under its control.   

On the other hand, it has never worked before, as they found out in Algeria, South Africa, Rhodesia, etc.


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## Phoenall (Apr 29, 2014)

montelatici said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Indofred said:
> ...





 It is already standing at over 100 times the population of Israel, and still not a sign of any attack. Even if in hits 1000 times the muslims will not attack as they are cowards when faced with death. Just look at what hamas did during Cast lead when they evicted the women and children from the shelters so the brave mujahidin could escape injury.


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## montelatici (Apr 29, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



We shall see.


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## aris2chat (Apr 29, 2014)

Indofred said:


> Empires and rogue states turn up, live, murder and eventually, get stomped under the feet of the people they oppress.
> Israel is no different.
> Sooner or later, the American taxpayers will rebel, give Israel the finger and, as the country gets weaker, the surrounding nations will want their land back.
> 
> ...



Because of the antisemitism in Europe and the large influx of muslims, radical muslims, jews are leaving Europe.


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## Phoenall (Apr 29, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...





 If they cant do it at 100 to 1 then they will never have the gonads to do it even if they manage 1 million to 1. As I said they are craven cowards and can only go after unarmed women and children when there are ten or more ISLAMONAZI TERRORIST COWARDS


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## montelatici (Apr 29, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



We shall see.


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## Hossfly (Apr 29, 2014)

Indofred said:


> Empires and rogue states turn up, live, murder and eventually, get stomped under the feet of the people they oppress.
> Israel is no different.
> Sooner or later, the American taxpayers will rebel, give Israel the finger and, as the country gets weaker, the surrounding nations will want their land back.
> 
> ...


Dream on, Rip Van Winkle. Israel will be the very last to fall.


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## aris2chat (Apr 29, 2014)

montelatici said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Indofred said:
> ...



Jews ruled in western Yemen, fought in arab armies against Byzantines when jews were being persecuted.  
Jews of Jerusalem gained complete control over the city in 614, and much of Judea and Galilee became an autonomous Jewish province of the Sasanian Empire. At the time, 150,000 Jews were living in 43 settlements throughout the territory.  
Another jewish kingdom was declared in iraq.


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## montelatici (Apr 29, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



As you say the Sasanians (Persians) with the help of the Jews conquered Christian Jerusalem in 614 and massacred the Christians that didn't flee, about 90,000 Christians were massacred mostly by the Jews.

The Sasanians left and left the Jews alone to defend Jerusalem.  The Christians returned and reconquered the city 14 years later and massacred all the Jews.

To rule as such a small minority in the area, they need substantial external suppport, which the U.S. is providing for now.


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## Sally (Apr 29, 2014)

montelatici said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



Muslims seem to have a big problem with any help the U.S. provides to Israel, but they apparently have no problems with their fellow Muslims murdering thousands and thousands of innocent people.  Hmm, I wonder who is aiding all these Muslims who are busy murdering innocents and also each other.  Bullets and such don't fly down from the sky.  Someone has to be supplying them.


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## Indofred (Apr 29, 2014)

toastman said:


> And in 5 to 20 years, Muslim Nazis like you will be saying that in 5 to 20 years, Israel will be destroyed.



What, like Israel's lie about Iran getting an atomic bomb?

Unlike Israeli's usual lie, my conclusion is based on looking at the real world.
Israeli Jewish birthrate is in decline.
Israel's Arab birthrate is far higher.
This will cause a shift in the religious weightings.
That in mind, the Israeli government will either change or be forced into drastic action to ensure only Jews can vote.
That means either removal of any voting rights for non Jews or mass expulsions/removal of citizenship.

America's economy is on the way down; weighed down by massive debt, America will have to reconsider its budget and who it supplied free weapons to.

Many countries are already rejecting American influence, moving towards Russia. Egypt has already done a deal with that country for a massive arms shipment. The balance of power in the middle east will either shift, or America will have to supply a lot more free arms.
With America's internal problems - will American taxpayers stand it?

Every and all repressive state has fallen, usually quite quickly, and Israel will be no exception.

A stupid, childish insult regarding me being a Nazi will have no effect on this.


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## Indofred (Apr 29, 2014)

Sally said:


> Muslims seem to have a big problem with any help the U.S. provides to Israel, but they apparently have no problems with their fellow Muslims murdering thousands and thousands of innocent people.  Hmm, I wonder who is aiding all these Muslims who are busy murdering innocents and also each other.  Bullets and such don't fly down from the sky.  Someone has to be supplying them.



Muslims don't have any problem with Muslims murdering Muslims?
Well, maybe the Muslims who are killed or their families are less than happy.

Tell me, how did you get that stupid; were you dropped on your head as a baby or do you take neuroleptic compounds?


----------



## Sally (Apr 29, 2014)

Indofred said:


> Sally said:
> 
> 
> > Muslims seem to have a big problem with any help the U.S. provides to Israel, but they apparently have no problems with their fellow Muslims murdering thousands and thousands of innocent people.  Hmm, I wonder who is aiding all these Muslims who are busy murdering innocents and also each other.  Bullets and such don't fly down from the sky.  Someone has to be supplying them.
> ...



Wake up, Freddie.  I was talking about the Muslims who are busy posting demonizing Israel all over the Internet.  Have you ever seen them condemning what is happening in the rest of the Middle East where Muslims are busy killing Muslims (as well as Christians).  As for stupid, Freddie, look in the mirror and you will see stupid.


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## montelatici (Apr 29, 2014)

Sally said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> > Sally said:
> ...



"Muslims who are busy posting demonizing Israel all over the Internet."

Most are Christians, Hindus and Buddhists. Muslims don't do the internet much.


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## Indeependent (Apr 29, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Sally said:
> 
> 
> > Indofred said:
> ...



That's because they keep blowing themselves up when they're reading the "How to make a home made bomb" page.


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## Sally (Apr 29, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Sally said:
> 
> 
> > Indofred said:
> ...



Oh, Haniya, tell us another good one.  Look at how many hours you are on here and your other forums.  I just hope that you aren't one of those converts who goes to the radical sites where Muslims are posting to conduct their Jihad.


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## aris2chat (Apr 29, 2014)

montelatici said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



614, the Persian army arrived at Jerusalem.  Persian commander turned Jerusalem over to Jewish administration.  Persian policy abruptly changed, Jews were ordered banished from the city.


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## GHook93 (Apr 29, 2014)

Indofred said:


> U.S. Supreme Court to review Jerusalem birthplace law | Reuters
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As opposed to Muslims who actually do kill Americans (Europeans and a boat load of other Muslims also). Face it, Muslims are the enemy of the West, China, Russia, Latin America and Christian Africa. Once the word wakes up from the PC bullshit, there won't be a safe corner of the world for any muslim!


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## aris2chat (Apr 29, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Sally said:
> 
> 
> > Indofred said:
> ...



LOL  you have got to be kidding
are you that clueless?


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## bluesman (Apr 29, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> bluesman said:
> 
> 
> > SAYIT said:
> ...



I am just reading what it says on the Israeli government website:

Acquisition of Israeli Nationality

_For the purposes of this Law, "Jew" means a person who was born of a Jewish mother, or *has converted to Judaism and is not a member of another religion*.

*Israeli citizenship becomes effective on the day of arrival in the country *or of receipt of an oleh's certificate, whichever is later. A person may declare, within three months, that he/she does not wish to become a citizen._


It seems pretty straight forward about it.


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## Indeependent (Apr 29, 2014)

bluesman said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > bluesman said:
> ...



Getting an oleh's certificate is not that straight forward.


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## toastman (Apr 29, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Sally said:
> 
> 
> > Indofred said:
> ...



Where do you come up with this shit.


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## Roudy (Apr 29, 2014)

bluesman said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > bluesman said:
> ...


You are correct on that one, the govt does favor Jews. Is there a problem?  Israel was created as a Jewish state and safe haven for Jews who are fleeing oppression, persecution, and genocide from all over the world.  

Israel will of course scrutinize a Muslim or Arab much more, because it is concerned about the security of its citizens.  There is profiling happening here in the US and Europe as well.  It's not racism it common sense.  People from certain countries are looked at much closer before visas are granted.  You wouldn't want immigration to grant any Pakistani or Palestinian a visit visa to the US, now would you?


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## Indofred (Apr 30, 2014)

GHook93 said:


> As opposed to Muslims who actually do kill Americans (Europeans and a boat load of other Muslims also). Face it, Muslims are the enemy of the West, China, Russia, Latin America and Christian Africa. Once the word wakes up from the PC bullshit, there won't be a safe corner of the world for any muslim!



Whilst totally neglecting to mention the number of Muslims killed in wars started by America and other countries.
Blindingly stupid posts require blind people to post them.


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## Phoenall (Apr 30, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



I don't think we will as pro palli terrorist lovers have been saying this for the last 67 years, and still no sign of any headway. As I said they are craven cowards when it comes to one on one combat


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 30, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



Unlike those "brave" Israelis who *hide* in airplanes, *hide* in tanks, *hide* in armored bulldozers, *hide* behind massive air cover...


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## Phoenall (Apr 30, 2014)

Indofred said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > And in 5 to 20 years, Muslim Nazis like you will be saying that in 5 to 20 years, Israel will be destroyed.
> ...






 Iran already has the capability to produce a nuclear device capable of killing millions of people and making the land inhospitable for many millennia to come.

 Your conclusion is based on LIES

 SO ?

 Just means they will die out sooner from disease and over population.

 How if they are in Palestine and have no say in how Israel is run

 NO just introduce birth control laws that limit the numbers of children.

 See above

 Which will mean the Islamic nations getting their aid stopped first.

 Not really when Russia and China put their prices up then they will go back to America. 

 Who does America supply free arms to as Israel pays top money for all of its American weapons.

 Will they get rid of the neo Marxist muslim you mean ?

 Then the rest of the world will follow as the muslims get control of nuclear weapons, is that what you want ?

 If it smells like a NAZI, Looks like a NAZI and spouts ISLAMONAZI PROPAGANDA it aint a Christian.


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## Phoenall (Apr 30, 2014)

Indofred said:


> Sally said:
> 
> 
> > Muslims seem to have a big problem with any help the U.S. provides to Israel, but they apparently have no problems with their fellow Muslims murdering thousands and thousands of innocent people.  Hmm, I wonder who is aiding all these Muslims who are busy murdering innocents and also each other.  Bullets and such don't fly down from the sky.  Someone has to be supplying them.
> ...





 We don't see them openly complaining and rioting over the treatment dished out to other muslims by aggressive states. So they cant be concerned about them, just the killing of Palestinian terrorist scum.


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## Phoenall (Apr 30, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Sally said:
> 
> 
> > Indofred said:
> ...





 Is that why they were caught using paedophile sites to pass on their hatred. They are amongst the worlds biggest users of the internet.


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## Book of Jeremiah (Apr 30, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Sally said:
> ...



The internet is a powerful communication tool and there was no time wasted using it to demonize Israel and the term Zion - which denotes holiness - in order to turn Americans against Israel, Phoenall.   What some of these folks do not realize is that they are being profiled by what they write.  The FBI reads message boards, websites, chat rooms on a regular basis and some of those folks have files similar to what you see lawyers wheel into a courtroom.  Files the size of telephone books filled with information and everything they ever wrote.  Imagine that.


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## Phoenall (Apr 30, 2014)

bluesman said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > bluesman said:
> ...






 When read in its entirety it says something completely different, and places certain criteria on the application.   Here it is in full



 Israel's Nationality Law relates to persons born in Israel or resident therein, as well as to those wishing to settle in the country, regardless of race, religion, creed, sex or political belief. Citizenship may be acquired by: 

Birth
The Law of Return 
Residence 
Naturalization 



Acquisition of nationality by birth is granted to:

1.Persons who were born in Israel to a mother or a father who are Israeli citizens.

2.Persons born outside Israel,* if their father or mother holds Israeli citizenship*, acquired either by birth in Israel, according to the Law of Return, by residence, or by naturalization.

3.Persons born after the death of one of their parents, if the late parent *was an Israeli citizen *by virtue of the conditions enumerated in 1. and 2. above at the time of death.

4.Persons born in Israel, who have never had any nationality and subject to limitations specified in the law, if they:

apply for it in the period between their 18th and 25th birthday and 
have been residents of Israel for five consecutive years, immediately preceding the day of the filing of their application.



Acquisition of Nationality according to the Law of Return


On the establishment of the State, its founders proclaimed "...the renewal of the Jewish State in the Land of Israel, which would open wide the gates of the homeland to every Jew..." In pursuance of this tenet, the State of Israel has absorbed survivors of the Holocaust, refugees from the countries in which they had resided, as well as many thousands of Jews who came to settle in Israel of their own volition.

The Law of Return (1950) grants every Jew, wherever he may be, the right to come to Israel as an oleh (a Jew immigrating to Israel) and become an Israeli citizen.

For the purposes of this Law, "Jew" means a person who was born of a Jewish mother, or has converted to Judaism and is not a member of another religion.

Israeli citizenship becomes effective on the day of arrival in the country or of receipt of an oleh's certificate, whichever is later. A person may declare, within three months, that he/she does not wish to become a citizen.

An oleh's certificate may be denied to persons who:


1.engage in activity directed against the Jewish people; 
2.may endanger public health or the security of the state; 
3.have a criminal past, likely to endanger public welfare.

Since 1970, the right to immigrate under this law has been extended to include the child and the grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the spouse of the grandchild of a Jew. The purpose of this amendment is to ensure the unity of families, where intermarriage had occurred; it does not apply to persons who had been Jews and had voluntarily changed their religion.



Acquisition of Nationality by Residence


Special provision is made in the Nationality Law for former citizens of British Mandatory Palestine. Those who remained in Israel from the establishment of the State in 1948 until the enactment of the Nationality Law of 1952, became Israeli citizens by residence or by return.

According to an amendment (1980), further possibilities to acquire citizenship by residence, were included in the law.  



Acquisition of Nationality by Naturalization


Adults may acquire Israeli citizenship by naturalization *at the discretion of the Minister of the Interior and subject to a number of requirements*, such as:


1.they must have resided in Israel for three years out of the five years preceding the day of submission of the application.

2.they are entitled to reside in Israel permanently and have settled or intend to settle in Israel;

3.they have renounced their prior nationality, or have proved that they will cease to be foreign nationals upon becoming Israeli citizens.

The Minister of the Interior may exempt an applicant from some of these requirements.


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## Phoenall (Apr 30, 2014)

toastman said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Sally said:
> ...






 From the little red book of ISLAMONAZI PROPAGANDA and LIES


----------



## Phoenall (Apr 30, 2014)

Indofred said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> > As opposed to Muslims who actually do kill Americans (Europeans and a boat load of other Muslims also). Face it, Muslims are the enemy of the West, China, Russia, Latin America and Christian Africa. Once the word wakes up from the PC bullshit, there won't be a safe corner of the world for any muslim!
> ...





 While you neglect to mention the numbers of Americans mass murdered by muslims for perceived insults to their god, prophet and religion.


----------



## Phoenall (Apr 30, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...





 And only target military personel and buildings. They don't set out to murder civilians minding their own business. When was the last time the IDF hid to mass murder civilians, or do you consider volunteer human shields to be civilians ?


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 30, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



Excellent regurgitation of Israeli bullshit.


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## Phoenall (Apr 30, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...





 Nope recorded fact that anyone can look for on the internet. Like the hamas list from Cast lead that stated the "civilians" were on their way to fire rockets at Israeli civilians or were carrying ammunition to mujahidin fighting the IDF


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 30, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



You take an isolated incident (that may not have happened) and portray it as typical.

That is lying.


----------



## Roudy (Apr 30, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...


Arab cowards haven't fought in armies for decades now.  They just know how to be good terrorists.  Fits with their religion perfectly.


----------



## Indofred (Apr 30, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> > What, like Israel's lie about Iran getting an atomic bomb?
> ...



What, a nuclear bomb?
Prove it.


----------



## toastman (Apr 30, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



That's how all militaries fight.
Also, you forgot to mention ground troops.


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## toastman (Apr 30, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



I'm glad you mentioned this Tinmore. 
What you just said is something I see among Palestinian propagandists.


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 30, 2014)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



Like in the West Bank where they shoot unarmed civilians?


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 30, 2014)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



examples?


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## toastman (Apr 30, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



So, you have proof that Israeli pilots, tank commanders, troops are asked by those who choose the targets beforehand, to fire upon civilian targets? 
Please share thins information with me, oh great Palestinian propagandist.


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## montelatici (Apr 30, 2014)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



"GENEVA, March 23 (Reuters) - United Nations investigators said on Monday Israel violated a range of human rights during its invasion of Gaza, including targeting civilians and using a child as a human shield."

U.N. reports say Israel targeted civilians in Gaza | Reuters


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## Roudy (Apr 30, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...


At least they're not hiding behind their own women and children while shooting at other women and children.  Such brave people, NOT.


----------



## Roudy (Apr 30, 2014)

montelatici said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Gaza invasion?  Ha ha ha.  Gaza invasion was an operation to root out the terrorists who were targeting Israeli civilians.  I have a good place for that finger you keep pointing at Israelis for crimes Palis are guilty of.


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 30, 2014)

Roudy said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



Israeli bullshit.

Got proof?


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## Phoenall (Apr 30, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...





 Not isolated incidents at all but the sort of things hamas wrote about the "civilians" killed during Cast lead. Most were engaged in some form of terrorist/militia activity


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## Phoenall (Apr 30, 2014)

Indofred said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Indofred said:
> ...





 Spent fuel rods from their reactors that could be loaded into a warhead and fired at an inhabited area. Highly radioactive with a half life of over 1 million years would cause the deaths of over half the population. A so called dirty bomb that has been touted for years


----------



## P F Tinmore (Apr 30, 2014)

Roudy said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



Terrorist chickens?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2nBzvybC-4]Goldstone Facts - destruction of civilian infrastructure - YouTube[/ame]


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## Phoenall (Apr 30, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...





 Evidence from a reputable unbiased source to prove your outburst, and riot control does not count as that is happening all over the world.


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## Phoenall (Apr 30, 2014)

montelatici said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...






 Hardly an unbiased report is it, and does not answer the question. Try again............


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## Phoenall (Apr 30, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...





 YES


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## Phoenall (Apr 30, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...






 Didn't he later retract most of his report.


Goldstone Retracts Part Of U.N. Report On Israel's Actions In Gaza : NPR

 South African judge Richard Goldstone says he no longer believes Gazan civilians were deliberately targeted as a matter of Israeli policy during the war which left up to 1,400 Palestinians dead.


----------



## DriftingSand (Apr 30, 2014)

editec said:


> WEll LIPS, I'd say it reeks of anti-Israeli sentiment.
> 
> It is possible, ya know, to object to much about the state of Israel and not hate Jews one bit.
> 
> ...



I tend to agree with this post.  I don't have to "hate" anyone or be "anti-Semetic" to disagree with certain aspects of the current, Jewish state.  

But because I hold to this position a large number of fellow Christians will have little to nothing to do with me.  It doesn't matter that I believe and worship my Savior, Jesus Christ. That's incidental and insignificant.  Far more important than my belief in Christ is my need, as a modern Christian, to worship the state of Israel.  If I don't then I'm a hell-bound heretic. 

I pray for Israel just as I pray for all people. A remnant of Israel will be saved but not all of them will.  I pray that Israelites will turn to Christ and I pray that Arabs/Muslims will turn to Christ.


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 30, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



No.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zh1be2EX8Ws]Goldstone Reignites Gaza Debate - YouTube[/ame]


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## toastman (Apr 30, 2014)

montelatici said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



First if all, you didn't answer my question.

Second, Hamas almost only targets civilians.

Now, I'm sure you'll find several instances of soldiers purposely killing civilians in the last few decades, but it is not a tactic used by the IDF or IAF .

If you can prove otherwise, I will applaud you and admit I was wrong.


----------



## toastman (Apr 30, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Yes, he did. From Phonall link:

A top international jurist has retracted part of a controversial report on Israel's military operation into the Gaza Strip in 2008 and 2009.

South African judge Richard Goldstone says he no longer believes Gazan civilians were deliberately targeted as a matter of Israeli policy during the war which left up to 1,400 Palestinians dead.


----------



## toastman (Apr 30, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Do you eve understand what it means when he says 'hiding behind women and children' ? 

It's not literally hiding behind them (although I wouldn't be surprised if they did), it means attacking Israel from civilian areas, knowing that Israel will likely fire back in that direction.


----------



## Roudy (Apr 30, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Well documented.  Actually documented beyond belief.  Muslims have no qualms about using their own as human shields.  

US and European soldiers were witness to this during the Iraq and Afghanistan operations.  They used mosques, hospitals, ambulances, red cross centers, schools, apartment buildings, etc. to conduct terrorism and target American forces.  And, they also targeted schools, hospitals, even UN humanitarian centers that are there to help the people.  

Don't tell me you're not familiar with this sick depraved mentality of anything goes prevalent among Muslims.


----------



## Roudy (Apr 30, 2014)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


They even do hide behind women and children.  The psychos intentionally conduct their terrorist operations in a setting with little kids in the background.  That's because they know Israelis aren't savage animals like they are.  But they pray for Israel to make a mistake and kill one of their non combatants so they broadcast it all over the media.


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## Phoenall (Apr 30, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...






 Them Israeli plastic surgeons are damn good if they can make a 60 year old man look like a 25 year old woman.

 He retracted parts of his report after deliberating on his findings

 "  South African judge Richard Goldstone says *he no longer believes Gazan civilians were deliberately targeted as a matter of Israeli policy* during the war which left up to 1,400 Palestinians dead "


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## P F Tinmore (Apr 30, 2014)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



Israel killed about a thousand civilians, destroyed thousands of houses, destroyed hundreds of factories, destroyed civilian government buildings, destroyed crops, agricultural land, killed livestock, destroyed medical facilities, destroyed schools, but only killed a few hundred militants.

Your numbers do not add up.

Your post is crap.


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## Kondor3 (Apr 30, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


Large numbers of civilian casualties is what happens when chickenshits like the Palestinians hide behind the skirts of their women and children while shooting at the Israelis.

Better that it happens to Palestinian civilians rather than Israeli ones?

Don't want your people hurt and killed during combat operations?

Move those combat operations outside of civilian population zones.

Move your rocket launchers outside of civilian population zones.

Or suffer the consequences.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Apr 30, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



Yeah, yeah, standard Israeli bullshit.

Maybe they should send you some new propaganda.


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## toastman (Apr 30, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



My post was copy pasted.

And you're deflecting again. Phoenall just debunked your lie that Goldstone stood by his original finding that Israel targeted civilians.
No ifs, and or buts for that.


----------



## toastman (Apr 30, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



The goldstone report is based on facts from finding of people that WERE THERE and investigated.

Were you there?

You're just angry because you forgot that Goldstone retracted his original accusation.

And Tinmore, you telling someone else that post propaganda is equivalent to a morbidly obese man calling someone else fat....


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## montelatici (Apr 30, 2014)

Even honest Jews retract fact when threatened by their peers.  It's their nature.


----------



## Hossfly (Apr 30, 2014)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...


I thought the Goldstone retraction was hashed out a couple times before. Anyone who still believes the original Goldstone report is in fantasyland.


----------



## montelatici (Apr 30, 2014)

Hossfly said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Now punk, why would someone retract something?  Everyone considers the first Goldstone report accurate and the retraction forced by very powerful forces.  You need to get out more, punk.


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## Indeependent (Apr 30, 2014)

Thread Title...
"Jews trying to get Americans killed - as usual"

Actual history...Moslems have actually killed Americans.


----------



## montelatici (Apr 30, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> Thread Title...
> "Jews trying to get Americans killed - as usual"
> 
> Actual history...Moslems have actually killed Americans.



Jews have killed Americans.  USS  liberty for one.  So what?


----------



## Hossfly (Apr 30, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...


Nah, the Goldstone retraction was in good faith and he admitted he wasn't even there and his itenerary proves it.


----------



## Indeependent (Apr 30, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Thread Title...
> ...



I presume you're not a mathematician.
How many postings have already compared the sheer number of separate murders the Moslems have committed against Americans?
And not one anywhere by accident.

Your frustration gives me immense joy.


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## montelatici (Apr 30, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



Well do the math and figure out proportionally what the difference is.  What,  1.5  billion Muslims killed x amount of Americans and 12 or million Jews killed x amount of Americans.  Go ahead, figure it out genius.


----------



## montelatici (Apr 30, 2014)

Hossfly said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...



Sure it does, and what is an "itenerary", punk.  Maybe you mean itinerary.


----------



## Indeependent (Apr 30, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



OR...
How many Moslems danced for joy when the World Trade Center was destroyed vs how many Jews danced.

Genius!

And you know how terrified Americans are of Jews...


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## Hossfly (Apr 30, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...


Thanks for the spelling lesson, Muslim zevel.


----------



## P F Tinmore (Apr 30, 2014)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



OK, so if Israel did not "target" all of those civilians, how *did* Israel kill them?


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## aris2chat (May 1, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Thread Title...
> ...



Why did the navy deny there was an american ship in the area?  Why did the crew violate orders when told not to fire on the Israeli?  Why was the USS Liberty in a war zone?

This was not a direct targeting like the USS Stark or the USS Cole... or a half dozen other american locations where americans were directly targeted.
Speak to the attacks against americans by so many muslims instead of a series of mistakes on both side that led to a tragic accident of mistaken identity.


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## toastman (May 1, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
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This is such a stupid question, that it's really not worth answering.
Not to mention you know the answer.


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## P F Tinmore (May 1, 2014)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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If you don't know, just say so.

Don't beat around the bush.


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## toastman (May 1, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
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> > P F Tinmore said:
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Civilians are always killed in wars. Does that mean that they were all TARGETED?
Dk you even know what targeted means?

I feel dumber every time I answer questions like these if yours.....


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## toastman (May 1, 2014)

You Palestinian propagandists always talk about Israel attacks on Palestinians, yet you NEVER talk about why Israel attacked them.
So maybe you should be asking: Why did Israel begin to attack Gaza in the first place (Cast Lead)?


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## P F Tinmore (May 1, 2014)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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Indeed.

If 3 or 4 civilians are killed to each militant, there is a fundamental problem.

Targeted? Massive oops? What?


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## P F Tinmore (May 1, 2014)

toastman said:


> You Palestinian propagandists always talk about Israel attacks on Palestinians, yet you NEVER talk about why Israel attacked them.
> So maybe you should be asking: Why did Israel begin to attack Gaza in the first place (Cast Lead)?



Good question. Israel broke the ceasefire and refused to renew it as the Palestinians requested.


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## toastman (May 1, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
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Weapons, launchers destroyed? Militant building/ houses destroyed?
 The way you see if there is a fundemental problem is you calculate how many civilians were killed in how many attacks??

For example, if 1400 civilians died in Cast Lead from only 5 separate attacks by Israel, then there's a massive issue.

If 1400 civilians died during 2000 separate attacks, that's a whole different story.


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## toastman (May 1, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > You Palestinian propagandists always talk about Israel attacks on Palestinians, yet you NEVER talk about why Israel attacked them.
> ...



Cast Lead was a result of non stop rocket fire from Gaza.

Palestinian militants (I'm refraining from calling then terrorists so you won't cry)
Have a very low IQ. They attack the most militarized country on the planet, and expect a different result every time


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## P F Tinmore (May 1, 2014)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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2000 separate attacks and only a few hundred militants killed?

That doesn't say much about the IDF.


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## P F Tinmore (May 1, 2014)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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> > toastman said:
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> Israel broke the ceasefire and refused to renew it as the Palestinians requested.



I can't believe that you fall for that stupid rocket excuse. Israel had other options.


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## toastman (May 1, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
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Israel was only attacking militants?? 

Wow, and here I was thinking they were attacking weapona storages, rocket launchers, militant hideouts, tunnels.



And the 2000 attacks was just an example. I'm pretty sure there were more than that.


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## toastman (May 1, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
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What other options Tinmore??

You guys expect Israel to twidle their thumbs while rockets are being launched at their cities.
Regardless of the fact that only a handful of Israelis die as a result of them, no country will sit idle while they are being launched.


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## P F Tinmore (May 1, 2014)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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Israel can stop the rockets any time it wants without firing a shot.


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## toastman (May 1, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
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Thats what ai thought. No rational response.

How bout thinking like a rational person Tinmore, like this: 

The Palestinians, the ones building, receiving and launching the rockets can stop them any time they like; BY NOT FIRING THEN AT ALL..


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## P F Tinmore (May 1, 2014)

toastman said:


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They tried that. Israel did not reciprocate.


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## Kondor3 (May 1, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
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That's OK.

Now that the latest round of hopeless, pointless Peace Talks have failed, the gloves can come off.

We can expect massive Israeli retaliation for subsequent rocket barrages.

A 100-to-1 kill-ratio should do nicely as a point of departure, with better to come.

The Palestinians want it this way, they can have it this way.

No problem.


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## montelatici (May 1, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> P F Tinmore said:
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"A 100-to-1 kill-ratio should do nicely as a point of departure, with better to come."

That's as good as the Nazi kill ratio.


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## P F Tinmore (May 1, 2014)

Hossfly said:


> montelatici said:
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[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgksnRAbjLY]Adam Horowitz and Lizzy Ratner Discuss the Latest News on the Goldstone Report on Democracy Now! - YouTube[/ame]


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## toastman (May 1, 2014)

Tinmore can't handle the truth. Typical


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## toastman (May 1, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
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Bullshit, tbey stopped nothing.
They need to stop for GOOD, or they are going to be living in Gaza forever with no hope for an independant Palestinian state.


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## Roudy (May 1, 2014)

toastman said:


> Tinmore can't handle the truth. Typical


Might be truth allergies acting up again.


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## Roudy (May 1, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
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More Nazis died than Americans, didn't make the Nazis right, doesn't make the IslamoNazis right either.  But when you take into account that the Nazi Palestinian mufti of Jerusalem actually caused about 500,000 Jews to die in the Gas chambers, the numbers change.  

Amin Al Husseini: Nazi Father of Jihad, Al Qaeda, Arafat, Saddam Hussein and the Muslim Brotherhood - Tell The Children The Truth - Homepage


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## Roudy (May 1, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Kondor3 said:
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More Nazis died than Americans, didn't make the Nazis right, doesn't make the IslamoNazis right either.  But when you take into account that the Nazi Palestinian mufti of Jerusalem actually caused about 500,000 Jews to die in the Gas chambers, the numbers change.  

Amin Al Husseini: Nazi Father of Jihad, Al Qaeda, Arafat, Saddam Hussein and the Muslim Brotherhood - Tell The Children The Truth - Homepage


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## Kondor3 (May 1, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Kondor3 said:
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Better, probably.

Don't want to lose people at a 100-to-1 ratio?

Stop being pussies and hiding your rockets and other war assets behind the skirts of your women and children.

Better yet, just grow-the-fuck up and surrender.


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## montelatici (May 1, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> montelatici said:
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You are like the racists that wanted the non-whites to surrender and quit resisting in South Africa.  Won't happen.  Eventually, even a militarized society with nukes can be defeated by people resisting oppression. 10 years, 20 years, 30 years.


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## toastman (May 1, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Kondor3 said:
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In 10..20..30 years you idiots will be saying the same thing..just like you have been saying it for 66 years.

Yet here we are, ready to celebrate yet another one of Israels birthdays.

Whens Palestines birthday?


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## montelatici (May 1, 2014)

y_ou idiots will be saying the same thing..just like you have been saying it for 66 years._

The Latin Kingdom lasted about 100 years in the area, but then Saladin arrived.  A small population from another continent that settles a populated area can only survive if eliminates the culture of and most of the the indigenous people.  That isn't going to happen.  There are too many non-Jews surrounding and within the area Israeli Jews control.  But, keep dreaming.


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## José (May 1, 2014)

What we say is based on the fact that the historical track record of supremacist states in the last century is less than stellar (make that, a miserable failure), toastman, and it only tends to get worse from now on. 

Check this out:



> *"One can only laugh when the british and the americans make plans for the year two thousand. They'll be lucky if they last till 1945."*
> 
> _Joseph Goebbels, 1944_





> *"I, for one, firmly believe there is no place for even a fraction of the Bantu in the territory of South Africa."*
> 
> _Pieter Botha, 1966_





> *"Segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever!"*
> 
> _George Wallace, 1963_



Can we say with absolute certainty that the jewish supremacist state will join the other three in the garbage can of human history?

No... we have to be honest with ourselves and fellow posters like you and recognize we can't. 

But based on the above mentioned track record of ethnocratic states, I wouldn't bet any money on the jewish racial dictatorship lasting long enough to see a new century.


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## montelatici (May 1, 2014)

&#8220;While the majority of black South African leaders are against disinvestment and boycotts, there are tiny factions that support disinvestment &#8212; namely terrorist groups such as the African National Congress,&#8221; 

BEWARE THE WELL-INTENTIONED - NYTimes.com

*South Africa Shouldn't be Singled Out*

&#8220;the violation of human rights is the norm rather than the exception in most of Africa&#8217;s 42 black-ruled states...South Africa is the only country in Sub-Saharan Africa that can feed itself. Blacks possess one of the highest living standards in all of Africa,&#8221; adding that nowhere on the continent did black Africans have it so good. So, &#8220;Why is South Africa so harshly condemned while completely different standards apply to black Africa?&#8221; &#8221;

South Africa Shouldn't be Singled Out - CSMonitor.com

Sound familiar?


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## P F Tinmore (May 1, 2014)

montelatici said:


> While the majority of black South African leaders are against disinvestment and boycotts, there are tiny factions that support disinvestment  namely terrorist groups such as the African National Congress,
> 
> BEWARE THE WELL-INTENTIONED - NYTimes.com
> 
> ...





> namely terrorist groups such as the African National Congress



Nelson Mandela went from prison to president. It was only a few years ago that Mandela was taken off the US's phony terrorist watch list.

Who else went from prison to president?

Lech Walesa
Hugo Chavez
Marwan Barghouti?
?????

All imprisoned by shit regimes.

Just a thought.


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## aris2chat (May 1, 2014)

montelatici said:


> y_ou idiots will be saying the same thing..just like you have been saying it for 66 years._
> 
> The Latin Kingdom lasted about 100 years in the area, but then Saladin arrived.  A small population from another continent that settles a populated area can only survive if eliminates the culture of and most of the the indigenous people.  That isn't going to happen.  There are too many non-Jews surrounding and within the area Israeli Jews control.  But, keep dreaming.



1st century BCE till the 7th century CE
Saladin was the 12th century CE
Crusades/Europeans were from the 11th century CE to the 13th century CE


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## member (May 1, 2014)

montelatici said:


> *"You are like the racists that wanted the non-whites to surrender and quit resisting in South Africa.  Won't happen."*





> *YOU:  "Isn't this an Israel/Palestine thread? What does Egypt have to do with it?"*



so, _A.F.A.Y.C_.:  whatever the 'context' was -- egypt shouldn't be mentioned, but it's okay that *YOU* bring up *SOUTH AFRICA*...........



 hM_MM_MM

_*TAKE A hike*_, 

 *YOU* ...Hypocrite.


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## Indeependent (May 1, 2014)

montelatici said:


> y_ou idiots will be saying the same thing..just like you have been saying it for 66 years._
> 
> The Latin Kingdom lasted about 100 years in the area, but then Saladin arrived.  A small population from another continent that settles a populated area can only survive if eliminates the culture of and most of the the indigenous people.  That isn't going to happen.  There are too many non-Jews surrounding and within the area Israeli Jews control.  But, keep dreaming.



Those "non-Jews surrounding" Israel seem to have their hands full most of the time.

No, no!  Don't respond!  I'll respond for you...
Arrghhhhh!  Gosh darned educated, charitable, civilized Jews!  Arrghhhhh!


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## montelatici (May 1, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > y_ou idiots will be saying the same thing..just like you have been saying it for 66 years._
> ...



What are you trying to say, that the Latin Kingdom didn't last about a century.  What's your point?


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## Indeependent (May 1, 2014)

montelatici said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
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You're rooting for people who consistently kill their own.
What's YOUR point?


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## aris2chat (May 1, 2014)

montelatici said:


> aris2chat said:
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Roman and the Byzantine (eastern roman empire) lasted almost 8 centuries in the eastern mediterranean 
The King of Jerusalem was frankish and his family ruled for more than 2 centuries.


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## Phoenall (May 2, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Kondor3 said:
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 1,000 years  2 million  years    3 eons    what then when time has run out and the sun has gone cold. The Jews will have built the FTL drives and migrated to another planet and the Palestinians will still be complaining about the racism and apartheid in the west bank as they all die.


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## Phoenall (May 2, 2014)

montelatici said:


> y_ou idiots will be saying the same thing..just like you have been saying it for 66 years._
> 
> The Latin Kingdom lasted about 100 years in the area, but then Saladin arrived.  A small population from another continent that settles a populated area can only survive if eliminates the culture of and most of the the indigenous people.  That isn't going to happen.  There are too many non-Jews surrounding and within the area Israeli Jews control.  But, keep dreaming.





 Under INTERNATIONAL LAW there can never be another Saladin, the UN will never allow it. Read the UN charter and see just what would happen to any combined army that tried to take Israel.   The non Jews outside of Israel have no control or say in what happens inside Israel do they.


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## Phoenall (May 2, 2014)

José;9028638 said:
			
		

> What we say is based on the fact that the historical track record of supremacist states in the last century is less than stellar (make that, a miserable failure), toastman, and it only tends to get worse from now on.
> 
> Check this out:
> 
> ...





 Only one problem the UN in its charter has banned ALL OUT WAR and the Palestinians have signed it. So they cant invade Israel without getting beaten to a pulp by the UN member nations.   And do show with reliable links which group is being oppressed inside Israel's borders, those outside do not have any chance of eradicating through genocide the Jewish state of Israel


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## Phoenall (May 2, 2014)

montelatici said:


> While the majority of black South African leaders are against disinvestment and boycotts, there are tiny factions that support disinvestment  namely terrorist groups such as the African National Congress,
> 
> BEWARE THE WELL-INTENTIONED - NYTimes.com
> 
> ...






 Yes you going off topic again because you cant answer the arguments put forward, next you will be whinging and whining like a whingey whiney thing when someone compares the Palestinians to the Syrian terrorists killing women and children.


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## Phoenall (May 2, 2014)

montelatici said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
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 That you twist and turn to get out of trouble, and will tell LIES to do so.


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## montelatici (May 2, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> montelatici said:
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> > aris2chat said:
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I never tell lies and I only post fact unless I clearly express my own speculation or predictions which may or may not prove correct.  But, you are just a Phony and write nonsensical psychopathic bullshit.

Hey Phony, you are quite the genius. Both the Latin Kingdom and the Kingdom of Acre lasted a little less than 100 years. The Latin Kingdom 88 years and the Kingdom of Acre 99 years.  These are the limited periods that, historically, a religious minority is likely to hold the territory in an area through superior military power.  The Jews are becoming a smaller and smaller minority in the area with every passing year.

"The first kingdom lasted from 1099 to 1187, when it was almost entirely overrun by Saladin. After the subsequent Third Crusade, the kingdom was re-established in Acre in 1192, and lasted until that city's destruction in 1291. This second kingdom is sometimes called the Kingdom of Acre."

Kingdom of Jerusalem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Phoenall (May 2, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Phoenall said:
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 While the arab muslims only owned the whole of Palestine for 22 years before being evicted as illegal immigrants. Guess you did not do your homework good enough again.


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## montelatici (May 2, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> montelatici said:
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Why do you continue to humiliate yourself? You are just confirming to everyone how ignorant you are of history.  On the other hand, you may be mentality challenged

The Arab Muslims (as opposed to the Turkish Muslims or Kurdish Muslims) defeated the Byzantine Christians in 637 and Arab control over Palestine lasted until the First Crusade in the late 11th century, almost 500 years.  

So Palestine was either Christian or Muslim over the 2,000+ years until the Europeans of the Jewish religion settled there recently.

"The Siege of Jerusalem was part of a military conflict which took place in the year 637 between the Byzantine Empire and the Rashidun Caliphate. It began when the Rashidun army, under the command of Abu Ubaidah, besieged Jerusalem in November 636. After six months, the Patriarch Sophronius agreed to surrender, on condition that he submit only to the Rashidun caliph. In April 637, Caliph Umar traveled to Jerusalem in person to receive the submission of the city.The Muslim conquest of the city solidified the Arab control over Palestine, control which would not again be threatened until the First Crusade in the late 11th century...."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_(637)


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## Phoenall (May 2, 2014)

montelatici said:


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 Jerusalem is not Palestine little boy, now try and keep up the arab muslims held Palestine for 22 years before being evicted as illegal immigrants. Palestine in those days was a lot larger than the tiny 3% of the total area it is today.


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## montelatici (May 2, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> montelatici said:
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You do know how to read, right?  So read the text below from the link I provided and you presumably read and then shut up, I am tired of making you look more the fool than you already are, punk.

"*The Muslim conquest of the city solidified the Arab control over Palestine,* control which would not again be threatened until the First Crusade in the late 11th century...."


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## Phoenall (May 2, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Phoenall said:
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 Yes and discounted it as not being factual and unbiased due to the author links to extremist islam.

User:Mohammad adil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia     Is the author of this piece and he admits to re-writing islamic history


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## Roudy (May 2, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
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So since the 11th century, Muslims have not "controled" Jerusalem.  It has been under Turkish Ottoman control.  

Sorry, that makes the Arab claim on that land totally bogus. LOL


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## montelatici (May 2, 2014)

Roudy said:


> montelatici said:
> 
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Well, a far more legitimate claim than that of a bunch of Europeans. You people haven't much education and it certainly shows, but then you have to an ignorant nitwit to support Israel. However,  please memorize this, the Ottomans did not conquer Palestine until 1517.  The Christians held Palestine for about hundred years between 1099 to 1187.  They Christians held on to Acre for another 100 years but it was a small holding. So whether Christian or Muslim, Arab or Turk. It wasn't Jewish for sure.


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## Roudy (May 2, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
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There is no more or less legitimate claim, DUFUS.  The remains of the 700 year fallen Ottoman Empire was divided almost entirely into Arab Muslim shitholes, by those that conquered it, THE EUROPEANS aka the British and the French, except for one AREA, Palestine, which was voted for unanimously by the 51 member League of Nations aka United Nations to be the home of the Jewish people.  Which happened to be in their ancestral homeland, Israel.  Two for one.

Arabs and Muslim converts like you have a problem with that?  TOUGH SHI'ITE!  Deal with it, MOHOMOD.


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## montelatici (May 2, 2014)

Roudy said:


> montelatici said:
> 
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As usual, you are full of shit:

"The United Nations General Assembly approved yesterday a proposal to partition Palestine into two states, one Arab and the other Jewish, that are to become fully independent by Oct.1. The vote was 33 to 13 with two abstentions and one delegation, the Siamese, absent..."

https://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/big/1129.html

In any case, taking land from the indigenous people to give it to Europeans does not prevent the indigenous people from seeking to regain their land.  The Bolivian Indios have been fighting since 1492 or so, and have now begun to regain control of their country from the Europeans.  Where the Indios were not exterminated, they are making a comeback.  Same thing will happen in Palestine, in time.


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## aris2chat (May 2, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
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http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/Muslim-Byzantine_troop_movement_(635-636).svg

http://www.christians-standing-with-israel.org/map-jerusalem-saladin.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...gol_raids_in_Syria_and_Palestine_1260.svg.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ar_East_1135.svg/435px-Near_East_1135.svg.png

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/images/lionheart3a.jpg

http://www.recklessbooks.co.uk/communities/9/004/007/811/829/images/4532442571_525x676.jpg


Kingdom of Jerusalem and palestine were not the same.  Palestine did not have borders, it was a vague area and had within it other groupings of people and in some cases autonomous districts.
saying palestine was like saying near east or middle east or eastern mediterranean.


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## montelatici (May 2, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
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Whatever it was, the Arabs controlled it from its capture in the mid 7th century until the First Crusade in the late 11th century, so what's your point?


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## Roudy (May 2, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
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I'm talking about the 1920's League of Nations vote, DUFUS.  Where it was voted for unanimously 51 member nations.  How come Arabs never fought for this mythical Palestine during the 700 years of the Ottoman occupation?  How come Arabs didn't protest any of the other Arab Muslim shitholes that were formed around the same time as Israel?  How come NOBODY brought up an "Arab Palestine" when Jordan and Egypt controled the West Bank and Gaza for almost 20 years from 1948 to 1967?

Now who's the fulla shit one?  LOL


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## Hossfly (May 2, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
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"Palestine' is the name written by modern writers. Many people still say Persia instead of Iran when reciting history.


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## Kondor3 (May 2, 2014)

The Crusades ended on December 9, 1917...


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## Andylusion (May 2, 2014)

Hmm.... the thread seems to have turned into a squabble over who knows history better.   I'm not sure that either position on the history, really makes any difference... at least not to me.


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## Phoenall (May 3, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
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 Seems that you have not learnt your history little boy, the so called "Europeans" have a genetic marker that puts then in the lands of Judea and Samaria. The so called Palestinians that have been tested show a distinct lack of any such marker and instead show a very recent lineage outside of Palestine. The Jews whether Ashkenazi or Sephardic have lived in Palestine for 5000 years the muslims barely manage 3 generations


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## Phoenall (May 3, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
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 To become indigenous people the arab muslims had to force a change in the rules that dod not apply to any other claimants. That they had to reside in Palestine for a minimum of 2 years to be seen as indigenous, this because the majority were very recent arrivals from other parts of the M.E.


 Once again you breach your own rule and bring in off topic material to derail the thread because you have no answers to the points raised. Try and stay on topic in future


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## montelatici (May 3, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> montelatici said:
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That's all bullshit. The Palestinians, Christian and Muslim have genetic markers that places them closer to Palestine than any Jew. In fact, the Palestinians.

"RAEL: 86% of Palestinians are of Jews origins according to genetic evidence. Israeli need to know they are committing siblicide.
Palestinians are direct descendants of the tribes of Israel, they are as Jewish as any Jew in the world a study by Tsvi Misinai confirms through genetic, immunological, linguistic, geographical, anthropological and historical studies."

RAEL: 86% of Palestinians are of Jew?s origins according to genetic evidence. Israeli need to know they are committing siblicide. - Raelian Press Site


I am a white European and I have a genetic marker that places me in Africa.  It doesn't mean that me and my buddies can go to South Africa throw out the locals and take over the diamond minds.  What a frigging idiot you are.


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## Roudy (May 3, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Phoenall said:
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Ha ha ha.  Wow.  Talk about bullshit, what the convert to Islam just said was pure BS.  

Unless MOHOMOD can prove that Palestinians aren't anything but the same as their neighboring Arab brethren in every way, historically, culturally, and genetically who invaded the region in the 19th and 20th century, and then hijacked the name Palestinian in the 60's, you're shit outta luck.  

The Palestinians are an invented people and an invented identity.  They are NOT the descendants of the Jews, THE JEWS ARE. Get that through your thick terrorist worshipping skull, moron.


----------



## Andylusion (May 3, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



So irrelevant.   Ethnic Arabs, are descendents of Ishmael, which was fathered by Abraham.   Genetic markers would trace them back to a similar origin as Isaac.

Israel, is the ancient homeland of the Jewish people, and always has been.

Genesis 25:17-18
"Ishmael lived a hundred and thirty-seven years. He breathed his last and died, and he was gathered to his people. His descendants settled in the area from Havilah to Shur, near the eastern border of Egypt, as you go toward Ashur. And they lived in hostility toward all the tribes related to them. "






As near as we can tell from archaeology, Havilah is modern day Kuwait.   Shur is a bit more ambiguous, but the limited evidence suggests just south of the the southern tip of Jordan, or the North West coast line of Saudi Arabia.
*
Point being, the land known as Saudi Arabia, was, and is, the homeland of the Ishmaelite people.
Prior to the violent conquest of invading Arabs under the banner of Islam, there were no known 'palestine' Arab people living in Israel.*

And even then, the *ONLY* reason they could move into Israel and settle in the land, is because the Sasanian Empire, Persians (modern Iran), after the several revolts of the 500s, wiped out the local population by expelling them, enslaving them, and flat out slaughtering them.

At the peak, there were likely between 3 to 5 million Jews living in the land of Israel, before the systematic decimation of Jews started.

Yet between 700 AD to 1850s, the total number of Arabs and non-Jews living Israel was under 300,000.     That's less than the number of Israelites that came from Egypt during the Exodus, which was up near 600,000.

*Even the most optimistic approach, could never really suggest that the land of historic Israel was ever really occupied by Arabs.*

Jerusalem itself, makes the claim of Arab domination, and religious claim, spurious.   You would have to go all the way back to the 1500s, to even find a time where Jerusalem had a Muslim majority.  By the 1800s, Jews were the majority.    In 1920, Jews had a population of 30,000, while all others including Muslims, were only 20,000.

Even while controlled by Islamic Ottoman Empire, the city of Jerusalem, was Jewish by majority, and it was not a 'holy Islamic' site of pilgrimage.

And BTW... I love my Muslim friends, but guys I have to be honest, your claim to Jerusalem is fruity.  The Qur'an 17:1, Muhammad visiting the "Sacred Mosque to the remote mosque", can no possibly be talking about Jerusalem, or the Al-Aqsa Mosque.   Why?   Because Muhammad died in 632 AD.   There was no Mosque in Jerusalem.  The Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem was not built, and didn't open until 705.   In fact, there were no Muslims in Jerusalem at all until 637, 5 years after Muhammad died.

*The bottom line is this.....*

There is no other group, no other ethic people, no other religious order, no other language, no other culture, that has been in the land of Israel continuously for over 3,000 years..... Except the Jewish people, the Jewish religion, the Jewish Language, the Jewish Culture.

No one has been there continuously but the Jews.

People act like the Jews magically showed up in 1947.   They didn't 'show up' in 1947.  They never LEFT.   They have ALWAYS been there.   The only difference is, MORE came to Israel, because other people were killing, slaughtering, and expelling them from other lands, forcing them to Israel.

*Many of the 'illegal settlements', that people are screaming about, are settlements that have existed since before the 1800s.*

They were simply small un-noticed Jewish settlements.   Then all these immigrants being forced out of other countries, showed up to existing settlements, and now people are screaming about it.

Kiryat Arba for example, was 'founded' in 1968, in the "west bank" area of Hebron.    What a lot of people don't know, is that this settlement was "founded" in the spot of the 1929 Hebron massacre, in which 67 Jews were slaughtered, half of which were college students.

Wait wait... so you are saying there were Jews living there before the settlement existed?   Before even modern Israel existed?

YES!  Yes you twits!   *The Jews never left!*   They have been there CONTINUOUSLY for 3,000 YEARS!

This really isn't that hard to figure out.


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## montelatici (May 3, 2014)

"There is no other group, no other ethic people, no other religious order, no other language, no other culture, that has been in the land of Israel continuously for over 3,000 years"

The Palestinians whose ancestors include the Caanites have been there longer, not to mention the Samaritans.

The Origin of Palestinians and Their
Genetic Relatedness With Other
Mediterranean Populations

http://www.rense.com/general48/palestinians.pdf


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## Phoenall (May 3, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...






 This report has been debuked repeatedly over the last few months, and has been ignored as false by his peers. Did you bother to read some of the fanciful claims that destroys your friends arguments regarding "European colonists"

 "Palestinians are genetically much closer to Ashkenazi Jews than they are to the Arabs."

 High-resolution Y chromosome haplotypes of Israeli and Palestinian Arabs reveal geographic substructure


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## Indofred (May 3, 2014)

Androw said:


> People act like the Jews magically showed up in 1947.   They didn't 'show up' in 1947.  They never LEFT.   They have ALWAYS been there.   The only difference is, MORE came to Israel, because other people were killing, slaughtering, and expelling them from other lands, forcing them to Israel.



Illegal mass immigration.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Immigration/exodus.html



> The ship Exodus 1947 became a symbol of Aliya Bet  illegal immigration. After World War II, illegal immigration increased and the British authorities decided to stop it by sending the ships back to the ports of embarkation in Europe. The first ship to which this policy was applied was the Exodus 1947.
> The ship sailed from the port of Site, near Marseilles, on July 11, 1947, with 4,515 immigrants, including 655 children, on board.



Demographics of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



> The Jewish element of the population numbers 76,000. Almost all have entered Palestine during the last 40 years. Prior to 1850 there were in the country only a handful of Jews. In the following 30 years a few hundreds came to Palestine.



They weren't there.

Palestine was home to a couple of hundred Jews before the mass illegal immigration got out of control.


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## Hossfly (May 3, 2014)

Indofred said:


> Androw said:
> 
> 
> > People act like the Jews magically showed up in 1947.   They didn't 'show up' in 1947.  They never LEFT.   They have ALWAYS been there.   The only difference is, MORE came to Israel, because other people were killing, slaughtering, and expelling them from other lands, forcing them to Israel.
> ...


Freddie, as long as there was one family of Jews in the land, there was a presense maintained. There didn't have to be thousands or millions. Get real.


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## Andylusion (May 3, 2014)

montelatici said:


> "There is no other group, no other ethic people, no other religious order, no other language, no other culture, that has been in the land of Israel continuously for over 3,000 years"
> 
> The Palestinians whose ancestors include the Caanites have been there longer, not to mention the Samaritans.
> 
> ...



Was that a joke?   Or did you actually mean that?

Caanities do not exist anymore.   The relevance of a non-existent people, to a current day issue, is... pointless?

Samaritans are Jews.  A lot of pointy headed professors will bicker about 'the true jewish faith', but they are as much Jewish as Shiite and Sunni are both Islamic.  Splitting hairs is fine, but they are not significantly different.

They both believe in Abraham, and Moses, and the 12 tribes, and Yahweh, and most of the fundamentals of Jewish faith.

Samaritans speak Arabic and Hebrew.   They do not have a unique cultural difference.    To this day, there are only 700 known Samaritans that even try and differentiate themselves.   Most have adopted to be openly Jewish.

So I'll say it again.

There is no other group, no other ethic people, no other religious order, no other language, no other culture, that has been in the land of Israel continuously for over 3,000 years.


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## Andylusion (May 3, 2014)

Indofred said:


> Androw said:
> 
> 
> > People act like the Jews magically showed up in 1947.   They didn't 'show up' in 1947.  They never LEFT.   They have ALWAYS been there.   The only difference is, MORE came to Israel, because other people were killing, slaughtering, and expelling them from other lands, forcing them to Israel.
> ...



Well... you are lying.   Sorry.   I'm not going to debate lies with you.  Thanks.


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## Indofred (May 3, 2014)

Hossfly said:


> Freddie, as long as there was one family of Jews in the land, there was a presense maintained. There didn't have to be thousands or millions. Get real.



Excellent news.

North America can be returned to the Indian population immediately.

You need to get real.
A gap in reasonable population numbers for a period of two thousand years doesn't mean millions of people who have no history of living in an area have the right of ownership of that land.
Jews invaded the land but were kicked out.
They re-invaded so can hardly complain if they get removed again.

Because of extremist Jews, sooner or later that will happen.
Sadly, such a conflict will result in a lot of deaths, all caused by the stupid ideal we know as Israel.

Again, you have to get real.
All states based on extremists ideals have either died a death through political pressure or, as is common, a force boots them out.
The latter is more likely for Israel.

Given decline in Jewish birthrate, increase in Arab birthrate, and the likely reduction/stopping of American funding as America's economy declines further, Israel probably has about 20 years left - 30 at a push.
Given extremist Zionists are likely to be in power, a major regional war is very much on the cards.

Normal Israelis should get out now, before the extremist Zionists cause their deaths.


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## Andylusion (May 3, 2014)

Yavuz Sultan Selim, Sultan of the Ottoman Empire in 1517, conquered Egypt, and in the process, revoked the "Law of No Return", which was in place since the Roman Senate implemented it in 60 AD.

Between the absolute dismantlement of Israel by the Sasanian Empire, to 1517, you would be correct, there were only a handful of Jews there.

However, from 1517, until 1917, for 400 years, the Jews could move freely into historic Israel, and settle there.   In fact, the Sultan encouraged it to some degree.   He openly accepted expelled Jews from Spain, and many other Inquisition countries.

Suleiman the Magnificent, the Sultan that came after, ordered the rebuilding of Jerusalem, and directly encouraged the settling of literally thousand of Jews in the region.

By 1600, there were over 10,000 Jews in the land of Israel.  By 1800s, Jerusalem was overcrowded, and the first 'suburbs', communities outside the Jerusalem walls, were being built, by Jews.

So, again... you are just lying.... or you are really ignorant.   Pick one.  I don't care.


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## toastman (May 3, 2014)

Indofred said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Freddie, as long as there was one family of Jews in the land, there was a presense maintained. There didn't have to be thousands or millions. Get real.
> ...



FreddiE, I guarantee you that in 20-30 years, hateful people like you will still be saying that in 20-30 years Israel will be destroyed.
After 66 years of hearing the same shit, it gets boring.

What do you base you claim that the U.S will stop funding Israel?


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## Andylusion (May 3, 2014)

Indofred said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Freddie, as long as there was one family of Jews in the land, there was a presense maintained. There didn't have to be thousands or millions. Get real.
> ...



lol....

Um... no.    Out of all the topic of discussion on this forum, this is one where I normally just laugh.   I'll talk with you about it, but I'll never get heated on this.

Why?   Because it does not matter what I think, or you think.    You can't win this.

"But but birth rates and...."

No, you can't win this.

"But, reduction and stopping funding....

No no... you *can not* win this.

"But war and U.N. and....."

No, you don't get it.... you *CAN NOT* win this.

Have you read the Bible?

The Bible said the Israelites would conqure the land of Caanan.
The Bible said the Jews would be held in captivity. (Babylon)
The Bible said the Jews would return and rebuild.
The Bible said the Jews would be destroyed again, only this time scattered to the four corners of the Earth.  (Roman)
The Bible said the Jews would not assimilate into other cultures and remain a distinct ethnic group.
The Bible said the Jews would regather in the land of dry bones.
The Bible said the Israel would be recreated, and would be a terrible swift sword.  (1948, Six-Day War)
The Bible said the Israel would be a thorn in the side of all nations.
The Bible said the Israel would be stronger and more wealthy and advanced than ever before.

(BTW, did you know the Predator Drone the CIA is using to blow up Al Qaeda Muslim Extremists, was created by Jew in Israel?  I just found that out yesterday in a book I'm reading.  Poetic justice) 

And lastly, the Bible says that Israel will recapture all it's old territory and rebuild the Temple.

Now all of those statements that have been in the Bible for nearly 2,000 years plus, have come true, except for the last two there.

Let me give you a hint.....   They will come true.

Psalm 2:2-4

The kings of the earth rise up and the rulers band together against the LORD and against his anointed

"Let us break their chains," they cry, "and free ourselves from slavery to God."

The One enthroned in heaven *laughs*; the Lord scoffs at them.

You think you are going to stop G-d from completing what he intends to do?   You think you are going to fight G-d, and defeat His plans?   You think if you elect a Muslim as president of the USA, and cut off Israel, that you are going to over throw G-d?

The One enthroned in heaven *laughs*; the Lord scoffs at them.

By all means.  Feel free to try.   You won't see me sweating over it.  All your armies, all your plans, all your policies and actions and nations and rulers.......







One flick..... and that's the end of your attempts to thwart G-d.   Now I don't hate you, or anyone else.... I'm just saying you can't win this one dude.   Not possible.  By all means waste your life trying if that's what you want, but you *WILL* fail and when you do...

The One enthroned in heaven laughs.    Laughs.   You can either laugh WITH G-d, or you can be laughed at by G-d.  Those are your only options.


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## aris2chat (May 3, 2014)

Androw said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > "There is no other group, no other ethic people, no other religious order, no other language, no other culture, that has been in the land of Israel continuously for over 3,000 years"
> ...



CNN.com - Amid conflict, Samaritans keep unique identity - Oct. 8, 2002


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## Phoenall (May 4, 2014)

Indofred said:


> Androw said:
> 
> 
> > People act like the Jews magically showed up in 1947.   They didn't 'show up' in 1947.  They never LEFT.   They have ALWAYS been there.   The only difference is, MORE came to Israel, because other people were killing, slaughtering, and expelling them from other lands, forcing them to Israel.
> ...






 The immigration was only illegal because the ANTI SEMITIC JEW HATING British government said it was. But under the terms of the mandate the migration was a legal and acceptable. This is a result of the grand mufti Husseini's meddling and stirring up the hornets nest.


 Your second link is one that should be removed from Wiki due to the controversy surrounding its factual content. The author has been banned from wiki because of their abusive, racist comments to others who have edited parts of the wiki entry to show the truth of migration to Palestine.
 Under the Ottomans the arabs refused to migrate to Palestine because the land was so poor and the work too hard. So they invited Jews to come and work the land with the added bonus of being allowed to actually buy it for themselves. So the Jews came from other parts of the Ottoman empire and set up shop in Palestine, they scrimped and saved until they were able to buy land from its Ottoman landlords. Often they paid up to ten times what the land was worth because of muslim greed. The arab mongrel workers saw the chance to earn some easy money and eventually land that was fertile after the Jews had made it so. 

 So the real illegal immigrants are the many arab muslims that flooded the area from 1948 to 1967 to swell the numbers demanding a right of return to property they have not even seen, let alone owned.


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## Phoenall (May 4, 2014)

Indofred said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Freddie, as long as there was one family of Jews in the land, there was a presense maintained. There didn't have to be thousands or millions. Get real.
> ...





 Does the same apply to the arab muslims then who were missing for the most part during the rule of the Ottoman empire.

 Will the extremist states of Syria, Iran and Palestine also be destroyed.

 The only people being threatened with their aid being stopped is Palestine, and many western nations are now telling the terrorist entity that they are to get no more money.

 The muslims are already at a 1000 to 1 advantage so why haven't they tried to invade Israel, could it be that they are cowards and don't think the odds are in their favour.


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## P F Tinmore (May 4, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> Androw said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



Day 45 a: Join Diana on Mount Gerizim in Nablus on an enlightening visit with the Samaritans on their New Year Day. What is the difference between the biblical Mounts Gerizim and Ebal? What do Samaritans, who consider themselves the true ancient Israelites who crossed from Egypt, think of Jerusalem from the religious angle? What do they consider themselves, Palestinians or Israelis? 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adsnIMCg8IA]45 a Sleepless Gaza Jerusalem.divx - YouTube[/ame]


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## Andylusion (May 4, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> Androw said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



I love this.  Do you people ever read your own links?

From your own link....



> The Samaritans are Israeli citizens and recognized as Jews according to the law of return. Yet, those who live in the West Bank also are represented in the Palestinian legislature. Palestinians commonly refer to them as "Jews of Palestine."



So Israelis consider them Jews, and Palestinians consider them Jews.

So obviously they are nothing like Jews in your world?



> Samaritans are descendants of the ancient Israelites who broke from Judaism some 2,200 years ago and were centered mainly in and around the region of Samaria -- now a part of the West Bank.



So they are descendants of Israelites... which means they are nothing like Jews which are descendants of..........  Israelites?   So obviously in your world that makes them completely different.



> The religious practices followed by Samaritans are closely related to Judaism.
> 
> Although their calendar is slightly different from the Jewish calendar, they celebrate Yom Kippur (the day of atonement) and Passover, traditionally marked by the sacrifice of a lamb at Mount Gerizim.



They have a similar calendar to the Jews.  Celebrate many of the same holidays as the Jews.     So obviously in your world, they are nothing like the Jews, or Judaism.

Do you read your own links?   If that link you posted, doesn't completely prove my point, I don't know what would.


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## Hossfly (May 4, 2014)

Androw said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Androw said:
> ...


Who are you quoting Androw? Aris or Montezuma?


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## Andylusion (May 4, 2014)

Hossfly said:


> Androw said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



I was quoting the link the prior poster posted.


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## Hossfly (May 4, 2014)

Androw said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Androw said:
> ...


I figured it out after reading it again.


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## aris2chat (May 4, 2014)

Hossfly said:


> Androw said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...



he is quoting the article, but though they are jewish in many ways are still distinct.  But as jews they have never left, so jews have always been there.
They are palestinian jews but they serve in the IDF as Israelis.
They maintain their own culture and identity unique, but with ties to both Israel and palestinian.

"..distinct group, neither Jewish nor Arab....as they try to maintain their distinct cultural identity,
As a people, they are united by a common religion, tradition and language. They are one of a few remaining cultures that speak, read and write the ancient Hebrew language Aramaic."

The differences between jews and samaritans is more than just a few holy days or where Abraham was told to sacrifice Issac.

1 Kings 15:6 says "there was war between Rehoboam and Jeroboam all the days of his life."
1 Kings 12:25-33. No longer did the inhabitants of the north travel to Jerusalem to offer sacrifice and worship (cf Deuteronomy 12:5-14). Instead, Jeroboam set up idols in Dan and Bethel.

Bene Yisrael use only the Pentateuch and reject the other books of the Tanakh


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## bluesman (May 4, 2014)

bluesman said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > bluesman said:
> ...






> Jews trying to get...  04-30-2014 12:55 AM MHunterB  .
> Jews trying to get...  04-27-2014 02:30 PM MHunterB  .
> Jews trying to get...  04-24-2014 04:03 PM MHunterB




I understand that rep bombing is the chicken-shit alternative to responding with facts or logic but why the hell would you be mad at me for linking and quoting the Israeli government website?    If the truth pisses you off that much, then maybe you should re-evaluate your support of the idea that any country supported by the USA should ever use religion as a determining factor for granting citizenship.


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## MHunterB (May 4, 2014)

"..... maybe you should re-evaluate your support of the idea that any country supported by the USA should ever use religion as a determining factor for granting citizenship."

Actually, I don't like that idea one bit - using religion as a determining factor - and I've stated that quite a few times.

The problem is, it's NOT Israel which does this - as you falsely claim! - but Saudi (which outlaws all other religions but Islam for their citizens).


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## MHunterB (May 4, 2014)

For the logic-challenged among us:  'fast-tracking' a certain group of people into citizenship is not the same thing as totally forbidding any other group from ever becoming citizens.

There are many nations - Germany is one - which give preference to prospective citizens who can show 'German descent'.  My husband would probably get accepted just on the basis of his looks, without the fact that he can prove descent from a Palantine German who came to the US in the '20's (the 1720's)...... 

But again, such *preferential* laws, while perhaps distressing to American 'egalitarian' sensibilities, are not an actual BAR to citizenship as is the KSA law.

So it's the Saudis who are actually guilty of doing what 'bluesman' has alleged against the Israelis.


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## Hossfly (May 5, 2014)

bluesman said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> > "..... maybe you should re-evaluate your support of the idea that any country supported by the USA should ever use religion as a determining factor for granting citizenship."
> ...


I'll give you a pos rep if it'll shut your tear ducts.


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## bluesman (May 5, 2014)

Roudy said:


> bluesman said:
> 
> 
> > bluesman said:
> ...



Is that what you come here for?  Stupid shit like that?

Do you not want to talk about the fact that the Israeli government grants citizenship based on religion?  To me that is contrary to American values.  Of course, I am an American and I value what our founding fathers came up with as far as how we operate and what we believe in.  If you don't share those values, the no hard feelings.


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## bluesman (May 5, 2014)

MHunterB said:


> For the logic-challenged among us:  'fast-tracking' a certain group of people into citizenship is not the same thing as totally forbidding any other group from ever becoming citizens.
> 
> There are many nations - Germany is one - which give preference to prospective citizens who can show 'German descent'.  My husband would probably get accepted just on the basis of his looks, without the fact that he can prove descent from a Palantine German who came to the US in the '20's (the 1720's)......
> 
> ...



I didn't "allege" anything.  I provided a link to the Israeli government website.  Why are you so interested in deflecting away from facts.   If you don't want to talk about Israel, then maybe you should go and start a thread about Germany.


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## Hossfly (May 5, 2014)

bluesman said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > bluesman said:
> ...


This ain't about religion, Reverend, but if Israel wants to base citizenship on religion then so be it.


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## bluesman (May 5, 2014)

Hossfly said:


> bluesman said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Right.  That is what they do.  I am not saying that you, or anybody else, has to support American values just because I do or even because our founders did.  Not everybody is an American.  I can respect that.


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## Phoenall (May 5, 2014)

bluesman said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > bluesman said:
> ...






 It doesn't it grants citizenship based on race, ability to talk Hebrew, and mother lineage. I could claim to be a Jew, speak fluent Hebrew and produce forged documents to show my Mother was a Jew and I would never become an Israeli citizen. 
 In France you need to show an ability to read and talk French like a native before you can be considered for citizenship. In Australia you have to show that you are either sponsored or self sufficient before applying for citizenship

 I have never valued the founding fathers words and actions, but then I am not American. But I do share the values of Israel in its defence of its children, and those that don't are terrorist supporters.


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## Kondor3 (May 5, 2014)

bluesman said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> > "..... maybe you should re-evaluate your support of the idea that any country supported by the USA should ever use religion as a determining factor for granting citizenship."
> ...


Another nasty wee boggit with a potty-mouth... great... just great...

It's the Jews' country... they can do whatever-the-hell they want to in it.

You can always try stopping them, yourself, big mouth.

Oh, and, by the way...

When was the last time you saw analogous road-signs in Israel that reverse-mirrored this?







Pffffftttt.....


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## Roudy (May 5, 2014)

bluesman said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > bluesman said:
> ...


We already talked about this, dork. You said you have to be Jewish to be Israeli and you were proven to be wrong.  Stop whining so much and move on. Or don't, who cares.  

Boozeman.


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## Unkotare (May 5, 2014)

12 current members of the Israeli Knesset are Muslim.


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## toastman (May 5, 2014)

Unkotare said:


> 12 current members of the Israeli Knesset are Muslim.



Did you read that they were Arabs and assumed they were Muslim or are their religions stated?


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## Coyote (May 5, 2014)

*Thread cleaned and reopened.

"Zone 2": Political Forum / Israel and Palestine Forum / Race Relations/Racism Forum / Religion & Ethics Forum: Baiting and polarizing OP's (Opening Posts), and thread titles risk the thread either being moved or trashed. Keep it relevant, choose wisely. Each post must contain content relevant to the thread subject, in addition to any flame. No trolling. No hit and run flames. No hijacking or derailing threads.

Keep it relevant guys - flames must include some content related to the subject under discussion.  *


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## bluesman (May 5, 2014)

Roudy said:


> bluesman said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



The fact that you can only respond with name calling and not anything factual shows that you have nothing.

I will break it down for you.  If you are not an Israeli citizen and you want to be an Israeli citizen, then the Israeli government spells out in plain English.  Here is the link to their website:

Acquisition of Israeli Nationality


See, it talks about "acquiring nationality".  If you read the link, then it clearly says that if a person is Jewish, then they get automatic citizenship.   Based on its title, this thread is specifically about Israel and how they fuck things up for America.  I simply pointed out that they will grant citizenship based on religion.  That is something that is contrary to our core values.  Here in America "we hold" certain "truths to be self evident".  I am not telling you to become American or support American values. I am simply pointing out that Israel does not hold the same "truths" "to be self evident".  If someone in our government granted any sort of favoritism based on religion, then our supreme court would never uphold any law or court ruling that supported that kind of religion based favoritism.  It would certainly  never allow a law where members of a certain religion were granted automatic citizenship.  Those are just facts.  If support the idea of granting citizenship based on religion, then we can just agree to disagree.  I support American values and you have every right to support whatever values you wish.


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## MHunterB (May 6, 2014)

It's equally contrary to American core values to BAR people from even entering a country if they're of a certain religion, isn't it?

So why not a peep from you about how KSA runs their country?  Or did you fail to notice their laws?

As soon as one compares US to Israeli laws, there's no reason to limit it to ONLY those two while discussing whether or not Americans 'should' approve.

After all, KSA is also a US ally which receives foreign aid.


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## bluesman (May 6, 2014)

bluesman said:


> ...I will break it down for you.  If you are not an Israeli citizen and you want to be an Israeli citizen, then the Israeli government spells out in plain English.  Here is the link to their website:
> 
> Acquisition of Israeli Nationality
> 
> ...






MHunterB said:


> It's equally contrary to American core values to BAR people from even entering a country if they're of a certain religion, isn't it?
> 
> So why not a peep from you about how KSA runs their country?  Or did you fail to notice their laws?
> 
> ...




This thread isn't about the "KSA".   I am not required to go off topic.   If you want to justify what Israel does by citing other fucked up governments, then that only proves that Israel is fucked up in the way it does things.


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## Roudy (May 6, 2014)

bluesman said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > bluesman said:
> ...


Nope nope, and nope.  For the tenth time, there are 1.8 million Arab Muslims, about a quarter of Israel's population, that live as Israeli citizens with the exact same rights.  While being a Jew certainly give's a "preference" to becoming a citizen of Israel, it by no means BARS people of other religions from becoming citizens.  Israel is a democratic nation with freedom of speech and elections which respects people's of all religions and races, which are about as close to America's core values as you can get.  

Meanwhile, 99% of Muslim countries are shitholes of oppression, corruption, intolerance, and persecution, with values that run 180 degrees the opposite of our American values.

Boozeman.


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## Phoenall (May 6, 2014)

bluesman said:


> bluesman said:
> 
> 
> > ...I will break it down for you.  If you are not an Israeli citizen and you want to be an Israeli citizen, then the Israeli government spells out in plain English.  Here is the link to their website:
> ...






 Then explain these exclusions from your link that shows it is not that cut and dried

 Acquisition of Nationality according to the Law of Return


On the establishment of the State, its founders proclaimed "...the renewal of the Jewish State in the Land of Israel, which would open wide the gates of the homeland to every Jew..." In pursuance of this tenet, the State of Israel has absorbed survivors of the Holocaust, refugees from the countries in which they had resided, as well as many thousands of Jews who came to settle in Israel of their own volition.

The Law of Return (1950) grants every Jew, wherever he may be, the right to come to Israel as an oleh (a Jew immigrating to Israel) and become an Israeli citizen.

For the purposes of this Law, "Jew" means a person who was born of a Jewish mother, or has converted to Judaism and is not a member of another religion.

Israeli citizenship becomes effective on the day of arrival in the country or of receipt of an oleh's certificate, whichever is later. A person may declare, within three months, that he/she does not wish to become a citizen.

An oleh's certificate may be denied to persons who:


*1.engage in activity directed against the Jewish people; 
2.may endanger public health or the security of the state; 
3.have a criminal past, likely to endanger public welfare.*


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## Beelzebub (May 6, 2014)

editec said:


> WEll LIPS, I'd say it reeks of anti-Israeli sentiment.
> 
> It is possible, ya know, to object to much about the state of Israel and not hate Jews one bit.
> 
> ...




Hi.  I'm new here.  But not new everywhere, so let's get over it.

Maybe Jerusalem ought to be an Israeli city, but it isn't.  Its like maybe Alaska should belong to Russia, but it doesn't.  So you are not wrong as such.  But you are very close.

I think you have a good point on dual citizenship.  It adds complexity, and we all know the right wing are not good with complexity.  If you can't salute it or shoot it, they get a bit stumped.

As to "getting off the pot" to "declare their allegiance to either the USA or Israel", that seems sensible.  Only how about the US Government and Military doing so first?
It seems that both want to be loyal to both what they think is the USA and to Israel.  When the two are in conflict they tend to side with Israel.

See: "The USS Liberty" and other events.


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## Lipush (May 6, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> > WEll LIPS, I'd say it reeks of anti-Israeli sentiment.
> ...



Please explain.


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## Beelzebub (May 6, 2014)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > In other words "Jerusalem is *not *in Palestine."  You certainly have trouble typing the word Israel don't you.  What happens, does you pc freeze or something like that when you type it?
> ...


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## Beelzebub (May 6, 2014)

Lipush said:


> Please explain.




Do you not know the history of the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty.
Dear dear.

Well it is a good long story.  You can continue your information gathering here:


Apart from that rather obvious example, the US gives treasure and sacrifices credibility every day by its support of Israel.  Though you are not allowed to say it 9/11 and the general Jihad against America is due to its unjust treatment of "lesser people" more than a little, The Palestinians.

Of course this is not just due to ignorance in America.  Nor is it just down to oil industry interests.  Or to War Industry interests.  Not even all down to Zionist supporters (mostly Christian, by the way - nutty Christians, but still Christians).

But overall the US sacrifices wealth, credibility, strategic advantage, natural allies, and economic advantage in the cause of supporting the quite obviously racist and semi-fascist Israeli state.

I don't say that Russia and Europe don't (Germany in particular are a great supporter of them), but the US doesn't even allow criticism of the place, when it does utterly evil acts.

Thankfully, the new generation have noticed and are getting around the closed-shop of obsequious news reporting and avoidance of objective reporting.

Anything unclear Lipush?


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## Phoenall (May 6, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


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## Phoenall (May 6, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Please explain.
> ...






 The USS Liberty which was a converted WW2 freighter that was not supposed to be there and did not exist according to USA sources. It also looked very much like many Egyptian navy vessels being of the same type and general design. So a mistake by the USA to not inform Israel that the vessel was there and to avoid it


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## bluesman (May 6, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> bluesman said:
> 
> 
> > bluesman said:
> ...




 I underlined the relevant part.  It shows that a Jew is an automatic citizen.  The part you highlighted in red and enlarged doesn't really address the simple fact that under Israeli law a Jew is an automatic citizen.  There is little question that the part you highlighted in red and enlarged isn't something that is going to come into play that often.


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## azai (May 6, 2014)

just joined today as I've been following the I-P conflict my entire life. It's a diversion to compare Israel to tyranically Arab regimes, because those are indefensible, just to make Israel look better. Israel is in a class by itself in the region with the possible exception of Turkey and must be held to a higher standard given the aid received from teh US and the claims of a democratic liberal government.


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## bluesman (May 6, 2014)

Roudy said:


> bluesman said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...




You are not addressing what I posted.  You have to actually read what the Israeli government clearly says in its website:

Acquisition of Israeli Nationality


_...*For the purposes of this Law, "Jew"* means a person who *was born *of a Jewish mother, *or has converted* *to Judaism and is not a member of another religion.*

*Israeli citizenship becomes effective on the day of arrival in the country*... _


That is something that would never happen in  America.  Something that our founders would never have gone for and also something that our supreme court would never uphold.   Again, there is no reason for name calling.  I am not asking you to agree with my American values.  I do not begrudge you the right to believe in the values of whatever country you come from or hold allegiance to.  In my case, I am an American and I support the idea that religion should never be a determining factor in granting citizenship in any country that wants to claim to be free and democratic.


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## toastman (May 6, 2014)

azai said:


> just joined today as I've been following the I-P conflict my entire life. It's a diversion to compare Israel to tyranically Arab regimes, because those are indefensible, just to make Israel look better. Israel is in a class by itself in the region with the possible exception of Turkey and must be held to a higher standard given the aid received from teh US and the claims of a democratic liberal government.



If you have a problem with Israel receiving aid, go cry to the American government, but don't criticize Israel for receiving it.


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## azai (May 6, 2014)

Jews are wealthy enough to finance themselves, also considering their mastery of the banking system. As a goodwill gesture to US taxpayers, Israel should reject US money and in fact give a full refund to the US Treasury of perhaps $50billion.


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## ForeverYoung436 (May 6, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...


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## montelatici (May 6, 2014)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Beelzebub said:
> 
> 
> > Sweet_Caroline said:
> ...


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## ForeverYoung436 (May 6, 2014)

montelatici said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Beelzebub said:
> ...


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## azai (May 6, 2014)

many Palestinian Arabs, Christian or Muslim, have Jewish blood. Meaning the original Jews were converted to Christianity and then later to Islam. Meanwhile, many converted Jews who have no Jewish blood at all , are allowed Israeli citizenship upon arrival.


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## Roudy (May 6, 2014)

bluesman said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > bluesman said:
> ...


Nobody is asking you to change your delusional un American IslamoNazi values.  Israel was voted by the international community as a Jewish state.  Hence it gives preference to those of Jewish ancestry who are escaping oppression, persecution, and stupid bigoted idiots like you.  Period end of story.


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## Roudy (May 6, 2014)

azai said:


> many Palestinian Arabs, Christian or Muslim, have Jewish blood. Meaning the original Jews were converted to Christianity and then later to Islam. Meanwhile, many converted Jews who have no Jewish blood at all , are allowed Israeli citizenship upon arrival.


Point? Many Muslim countries do not permit a non Muslim to become a citizen of their country if they don't convert to Islam.


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## Beelzebub (May 6, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> Beelzebub said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...




You didn't watch the documentary did you?
Or if you did, you turned your mind off.


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## Beelzebub (May 6, 2014)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Beelzebub said:
> 
> 
> > Sweet_Caroline said:
> ...


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## Hossfly (May 6, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > Beelzebub said:
> ...


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## Phoenall (May 6, 2014)

bluesman said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > bluesman said:
> ...



  Whether it or not is beside the point the rules are still there and show that it is not a foregone conclusion as you claim. There are obstacles in the way that have been utilized in the past and present to bar Jews from gaining Israeli citizenship. Just as there are rules that allow non-Jews to apply and be granted Israeli citizenship.


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## Bloodrock44 (May 6, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Beelzebub said:
> ...



No we didn't Ahmed. The Liberty has been discussed ad nauseam. It's normally what you Jew haters bring up when you have nothing else.


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## Phoenall (May 6, 2014)

azai said:


> just joined today as I've been following the I-P conflict my entire life. It's a diversion to compare Israel to tyranically Arab regimes, because those are indefensible, just to make Israel look better. Israel is in a class by itself in the region with the possible exception of Turkey and must be held to a higher standard given the aid received from teh US and the claims of a democratic liberal government.





 Why when the terrorist entity receives more aid than Israel, that is free money not loans that have to be paid back. The west is now seeing through the terrorist entities façade and has started to cut back on their aid. A good example was the fuel bills that the EU gave the money for and the P.A. spent on weapons to murder Israeli children. This has been stopped and the P.A. is crying about it.


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## Beelzebub (May 6, 2014)

Hossfly said:


> Beelzebub said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...


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## Phoenall (May 6, 2014)

bluesman said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > bluesman said:
> ...






 And you ignore the conditions and criteria that apply that must be met first. Such as being fluent in Hebrew and not being a member of another religion. Convicted felons will also find it hard to get citizenship, as would serial killers. Yet Christians fleeing gaza are welcomed and offered citizenship .


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## Hossfly (May 6, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Beelzebub said:
> ...


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## montelatici (May 6, 2014)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...


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## Phoenall (May 6, 2014)

azai said:


> Jews are wealthy enough to finance themselves, also considering their mastery of the banking system. As a goodwill gesture to US taxpayers, Israel should reject US money and in fact give a full refund to the US Treasury of perhaps $50billion.





 So are the muslims 1000 times over, but you don't whine and whinge about the aid they get from the USA. As | goodwill gesture the muslims should give back every penny with compound interest and also pay damages for the actions of the extremist muslims who committed terrorist acts in the west.  Should cost them about 20 years oil money


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## Phoenall (May 6, 2014)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> Beelzebub said:
> 
> 
> > Sweet_Caroline said:
> ...


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## montelatici (May 6, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> bluesman said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



Why do you lie so darn much.  Palestinian Christians are not welcomed and offered citizenship in Israel  you frigging maniac.


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## Sally (May 6, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > bluesman said:
> ...



It's amusing to see the Boiler Room gang so busy demonizing Israel.  However, I don't think that a good modest Muslim woman, even if she is a convert like Haniya,  would call smeone a frigging maniac.  However, I would expect it from that guy who popped up under Haniya's screen name who said his wife comes from Spain.  It would be interesting to know just how many are in the Boiler Room demonizing Israel all over the Internet.


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## Beelzebub (May 6, 2014)

There are a lot of people on the net reporting on Israel and giving their assessments of what the state is about.

Much is coordinated as a fully funded arm of the the IDF, with their 'Hasbara' campaign.  "Explaining" or "Propaganda" as it has been termed since at least 1939.

And then there are those who tell it as it is.  And slowly.  Very slowly, the big powers are beginning to realise that they cannot fool all of the people all of the time.

The dam is full of holes, and it will break.  Maybe soon.
Like with South Africa, new generations will look back at those that supported the despotic regime and wonder why Americans did that.


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## Sally (May 6, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> There are a lot of people on the net reporting on Israel and giving their assessments of what the state is about.
> 
> Much is coordinated as a fully funded arm of the the IDF, with their 'Hasbara' campaign.  "Explaining" or "Propaganda" as it has been termed since at least 1939.
> 
> ...



Strange how people of all religions have it much better in Israel than in the rest of the Middle East, but the Boiler Room gang's needle is stuck on demonizing Israel, and they seem to all be reading from the same script -- just like you are dragging in South Africa right now.  I am sure that many of the viewers have noticed the same old, same old no matter which new poster seems to appear.  So, Mr. Lucifer, no matter what you happen to spew out, the viewers have read it all before from someone with the same mind set as you have.


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## Hossfly (May 6, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> There are a lot of people on the net reporting on Israel and giving their assessments of what the state is about.
> 
> Much is coordinated as a fully funded arm of the the IDF, with their 'Hasbara' campaign.  "Explaining" or "Propaganda" as it has been termed since at least 1939.
> 
> ...


Just a lot of wishful thinking, bubele.


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## montelatici (May 6, 2014)

Sally said:


> Beelzebub said:
> 
> 
> > There are a lot of people on the net reporting on Israel and giving their assessments of what the state is about.
> ...



He is just stating fact.  This thread's subject is Israel and Palestine.  The reason it is "same old, same old" is because facts don't change, propaganda does.


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## Beelzebub (May 6, 2014)

Hossfly said:


> Beelzebub said:
> 
> 
> > There are a lot of people on the net reporting on Israel and giving their assessments of what the state is about.
> ...



Maybe.
But many are working towards it, and its better to hope that good things will happen, than to support illegal occupation and general state sponsored terror.


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## toastman (May 6, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Beelzebub said:
> ...



Spoken like a true Palestinian propagandist!!

People have been working towards it for 66 years. And in 66 years from now, they will still be working towards it.

I have a feeling you're Mr. Seattle..


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## Sally (May 6, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Sally said:
> 
> 
> > Beelzebub said:
> ...



Well I am stating a fact thawt there are plenty of NeoNazi/Islamofascist hate sites where posters pick up a lot of their stuff.  I think by now many people realize how good Arab propaganda is.  Maybe those spewing the Arab propaganda like Haniya here feel that hundreds and hundreds of new viewers come to these various forums each day and they don't want all these hundreds of new viewers to miss any of the Arab propaganda.  That is why the viewers are subjected to the same old, same old stuff like you and yours continually post, Haniya.


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## Beelzebub (May 6, 2014)

Sally said:


> Beelzebub said:
> 
> 
> > There are a lot of people on the net reporting on Israel and giving their assessments of what the state is about.
> ...



I think the children killed and routinely imprisoned by Israel, and the children beaten and tortured by Israel would argue that they don't have it so good.

In any case, you seem to forget that Israel itself is a major catalyst for the evil regimes nearby.  Ok, with America as another.  

Iran would not be fundy without American & British intervention.
The utterly mad Egypt Military would not get subsidised by billions of US $ if it were not to keep them neutral towards Israel.
Jordan, Lebanon and Syria would have had less meddling, and every incentive over the last decades to westernise.  

With Israel there poking each one with sticks and bombs if they step out of line, twisting America's arm to pressure each to suppress the popular pressure to oppose Israel's injustice, the whole region would have a chance.

Israel should never have been allowed to be a state, and should only have been a spiritual homeland, with the cooperative buy-in of the middle easterners who helped Britain throw off the Ottoman oppressor.  As outlined in the Balfour Declaration.

It should never have been a forced invasion, and it should never have been allowed to expand beyond the 1948 borders.


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## Hossfly (May 6, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> Sally said:
> 
> 
> > Beelzebub said:
> ...


Your first statement kills any legitimacy you think you may possess. That and the rest of your blurb is just so much tired old BS and Jew-hating Taqiyyah.


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## Beelzebub (May 6, 2014)

Eh?

Are you suggesting Israel does not imprison and kill children Hoss?  Or do you think beating and isolating prepubescent kids by the Israel security forces isn't torture?

Make yourself plain man!


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## Phoenall (May 6, 2014)

azai said:


> many Palestinian Arabs, Christian or Muslim, have Jewish blood. Meaning the original Jews were converted to Christianity and then later to Islam. Meanwhile, many converted Jews who have no Jewish blood at all , are allowed Israeli citizenship upon arrival.





 Not according to recent DNA tests that show many Palestinians have Saudi, Egyptian and iranian blood. The Jews from Europe and Ethiopia show a genetic fingerprint that ties them to Judea and Samaria via Abraham.


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## Phoenall (May 6, 2014)

Roudy said:


> bluesman said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...






 Don't forget that the LoN made it a requisite to the mandated powers to allow the migration of any Jew who wanted to migrate to Israel.


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## Phoenall (May 6, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Beelzebub said:
> ...






 Don't need to as I have done my research and know all the facts. care to deny the facts as posted


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## Hossfly (May 6, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> Eh?
> 
> Are you suggesting Israel does not imprison and kill children Hoss?  Or do you think beating and isolating prepubescent kids by the Israel security forces isn't torture?
> 
> Make yourself plain man!


The security force doesn't do anything that is illegal or immoral. Those murder and torture are just old islamic terrorists wives tales.


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## Phoenall (May 6, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Beelzebub said:
> ...


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## Beelzebub (May 6, 2014)

Well, Hoss.

You are clearly a True Believer.  Your head is so full of stars of david swirling in red and white stripes it must make you dizzy.
One day they will bite you in the arse again, and you will have to cover up, again, as you did with The USS Liberty.

In the meantime, here is another example of how you betray your own nation by elevating Israel to the notional state of your bff:

http://www.newsweek.com/israel-wont-stop-spying-us-249757



> Whatever happened to honor among thieves? When the National Security Agency was caught eavesdropping on German Chancellor Angela Merkel&#8217;s cell phone, it was considered a rude way to treat a friend. Now U.S. intelligence officials are saying&#8212;albeit very quietly, behind closed doors on Capitol Hill&#8212;that our Israeli &#8220;friends&#8221; have gone too far with their spying operations here.
> 
> According to classified briefings on legislation that would lower visa restrictions on Israeli citizens, Jerusalem&#8217;s efforts to steal U.S. secrets under the cover of trade missions and joint defense technology contracts have &#8220;crossed red lines.&#8221;
> 
> ...


----------



## Hossfly (May 6, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> Well, Hoss.
> 
> You are clearly a True Believer.  Your head is so full of stars of david swirling in red and white stripes it must make you dizzy.
> One day they will bite you in the arse again, and you will have to cover up, again, as you did with The USS Liberty.
> ...


Looks like I'm your huckleberry.


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## Beelzebub (May 6, 2014)

You wish.


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## Kondor3 (May 6, 2014)

Hossfly said:


> Beelzebub said:
> 
> 
> > Well, Hoss.
> ...


You're giving yourself _far_ too little credit, Hoss!


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## bluesman (May 7, 2014)

Roudy said:


> bluesman said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...




See, instead of addressing what I posted, you are attacking me personally.  I am not the one who posted the Israeli law on their website.  There is no reason to defend your bias; all you have to do is embrace core American values and you will then agree that using religion as a determining factor for citizenship is something that does not match our values.  I don't know why pointing that out would piss off any true constitutionalist or American.  However, if you are from somewhere else, then I am not asking you to simply adopt our ideals.  I am not pissed of at you for supporting the practice of using religion as a determining factor for citizenship.   We just disagree about it. It isn't something that should make you want attack me personally.


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## RoccoR (May 7, 2014)

bluesman, Roudy, _et al,_

Of what importance is any of this in the reality of today, and any greivance the Arab-Palestinian may have.



bluesman said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > bluesman said:
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Every nation had the absolute right to establish the criteria for citizenship.  Even Arab States have rules on citizenship.

It is not in the jurisdiction for outside/external influences to critique domestic law relative to these issues of nationality and citizenship.  It is solely in the purview of the Israelis to determine the criteria pertaining to eligibilities --- just as it is for any other country.

What is the purpose of this discussion?  What is it suppose to either prove or disprove?

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Beelzebub (May 7, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> Every nation had the absolute right to establish the criteria for citizenship.  Even Arab States have rules on citizenship.
> 
> It is not in the jurisdiction for outside/external influences to critique domestic law relative to these issues of nationality and citizenship.  It is solely in the purview of the Israelis to determine the criteria pertaining to eligibilities --- just as it is for any other country.
> 
> ...




Maybe so.
Though on the other hand no nation has the right to demand approval of its self-definition, from another nation.

In the case of Israel they very specifically have not even defined themselves in law as a 'Jewish State' and have refused to define what they think that might mean.

So where does that leave you?


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## montelatici (May 7, 2014)

bluesman said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > bluesman said:
> ...



You will find that the pro-Israel posters are zealots when it comes to Israel.  To them Israel is more their country than the U.S. or other country they may be citizens of.  Hence, when Israel is criticized by neutral observers the reaction is violent and personal attacks are a way to soothe their frustration with the facts that they are presented with.  They have no other defense.  Oh, you will also be accused of being Muslim, which to them is the ultimate insult.


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## Beelzebub (May 7, 2014)

Though thinking about it, I don't believe a nation does have the absolute right to define what qualifies as its citizens.

There is much international law to consider, not least Human Rights (I suppose Israel doesn't much like those of course.)

For example, Russia may have more success extraditing one of its own citizens from abroad, than a complete non-Russian.
How would you feel if you woke up tomorrow to find Russia had new criteria which defined YOU as a Russian citizen?

So no.  Nations do not get to decide in isolation their definition of citizen.


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## montelatici (May 7, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> Though thinking about it, I don't believe a nation does have the absolute right to define what qualifies as its citizens.
> 
> There is much international law to consider, not least Human Rights (I suppose Israel doesn't much like those of course.)
> 
> ...



While I respect your idealism, I disagree.  Every nation has a right to define citizenship.  But, if automatic acquisition is based on being of a particular religion or favors a particular religion, the country in question should not advertise itself as being democratic nor secular.


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## RoccoR (May 7, 2014)

Beelzebub;  _et al,_

We disagree.



Beelzebub said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Every nation had the absolute right to establish the criteria for citizenship.  Even Arab States have rules on citizenship.
> ...



*(COMMENT)*

First off, the State of Israel was designated a "Jewish State" by General Assembly Resolution; not by self decree.  But then, there is no law, treaty or Covenant that precludes such a right of self-determination.  In fact, international consensus works the other way.  

Nothing precludes the "progressive exercise of the right to self-determination by peoples under colonial, foreign or alien occupation and their emergence into sovereign statehood and independence," in the General Assembly Resolution 49/148. Universal realization of the right of peoples to self-determination; especially that which is backed specially by a General Assembly Resolution in the "Steps Preparatory to Independence."

The "Jewish State" was a UN Designation given under GA/RES/181(II) Part II - Section B, as well as announced in the Declaration of Independence.

There is no requirement to define the status of the state as in:  "have not even defined themselves in law as a 'Jewish State' and have refused to define" --- as you contend.  A state is defined by its impression it projects upon the nation of the world that observe it.  But not state is required to qualify itself as to its nature.  Nor is it bound to act accordingly if it does define itself.  Certainly the "Democratic People's Republic of Korea" is not "democratic."  It is a totalitarian state.  Most Arab Kingdoms are undefined as to their nature, beyond that of a Monarchy.

Again, what is the beef?  

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Beelzebub (May 7, 2014)

Thanks for your links RoccoR.

I will read through them and get back to you.  Not as quickly as I would like.


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## Beelzebub (May 7, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Beelzebub said:
> 
> 
> > Though thinking about it, I don't believe a nation does have the absolute right to define what qualifies as its citizens.
> ...



I can agree with those amendments.   What can be done and what can be generally supported are different.

I would add that no such nation could say it is concerned with nor observant of Human Rights.  To claim grown adults as citizens, without their expressed desire to be so is like claiming ownership over them.  Citizenship comes with duties, liabilities and costs, and these cannot be imposed without offending an individuals rights.


----------



## aris2chat (May 7, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Beelzebub said:
> 
> 
> > Though thinking about it, I don't believe a nation does have the absolute right to define what qualifies as its citizens.
> ...



It is not automatic.  You have to prove you are jewish enough; you have to go on ayliah, speak hebrew, preform military service.  It is not just a matter of saying one is jewish and being handed an Israeli passport.


----------



## montelatici (May 7, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Beelzebub said:
> ...



Why do you continue to spread propaganda and disinformation when there is an Israeli Government Website that contradicts you completely? Please just stop this lying!

"On the establishment of the State, its founders proclaimed "...the renewal of the Jewish State in the Land of Israel, which would open wide the gates of the homeland to every Jew..." In pursuance of this tenet, the State of Israel has absorbed survivors of the Holocaust, refugees from the countries in which they had resided, as well as many thousands of Jews who came to settle in Israel of their own volition.

The Law of Return (1950) grants every Jew, wherever he may be, the right to come to Israel as an oleh (a Jew immigrating to Israel) and become an Israeli citizen.

*For the purposes of this Law, "Jew" means a person who was born of a Jewish mother, or has converted to Judaism and is not a member of another religion.

Israeli citizenship becomes effective on the day of arrival in the country* or of receipt of an oleh's certificate, whichever is later. A person may declare, within three months, that he/she does not wish to become a citizen."

Acquisition of Israeli Nationality


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## Auldhippy (May 7, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> bluesman, Roudy, _et al,_
> 
> Of what importance is any of this in the reality of today, and any greivance the Arab-Palestinian may have.
> 
> ...



You clearly don't get it. What the LoR does is to legislate for non citizens, the rights it bestows is not for Israelis but for non Israelis from anywhere who happen to be Jews. Israel is legislating for the world and it simply is non sensical. No other nation/state legislates for other than those who elect them. 

All due credit to the Jews who renounce those rights as the nonsense it is.


----------



## Phoenall (May 7, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > Every nation had the absolute right to establish the criteria for citizenship.  Even Arab States have rules on citizenship.
> ...






 They did not need to as the LoN and the mandate declared that it would be a Jewish National Home. This was then taken up by the UN who took over the mandate from the LoN and Britain and they declared it a Jewish nation.


 It was enshrined in International law when the UN accepted the declaration of independence in 1948.

Declaration of Israel's Independence, 1948 . Truman . WGBH American Experience | PBS

 HEREBY PROCLAIM the establishment of the Jewish State in Palestine, to be called ISRAEL.


 Once the UN accepted that declaration then Israel became a JEWISH STATE


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## Phoenall (May 7, 2014)

montelatici said:


> bluesman said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...






We have yet to see any criticism of Israel by any neutral observers that you have linked to. Everyone has been shown to be RABIDLY ANTI JEWISH and ANTI ISRAEL


----------



## Phoenall (May 7, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> Though thinking about it, I don't believe a nation does have the absolute right to define what qualifies as its citizens.
> 
> There is much international law to consider, not least Human Rights (I suppose Israel doesn't much like those of course.)
> 
> ...






 Do explain then why all nations have the right in law to define who gets to be a citizen, we do not live in a world without borders yet. So the USA can deny entry to anyone they like, and can also deny citizenship to anyone. The UK have withdrawn citizenship from foreign nationals who have travelled abroad to take part in terrorist activity


----------



## montelatici (May 7, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> Beelzebub said:
> 
> 
> > Though thinking about it, I don't believe a nation does have the absolute right to define what qualifies as its citizens.
> ...




The U.S. nor the U.K. (nor any other EU state) discriminate based on religion as Israel, and I am sure, some Muslim states do. It is against the law.


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## Beelzebub (May 7, 2014)

Human Rights laws do not permit states to make a citizen stateless, by depriving them of their nationality.

Yes, Britain has withdrawn / cancelled citizenship of nationals who have gone abroad to fight as mercenaries or Jihadists.  However those citizens have initially dual nationality, so are not made stateless.

Five of the dual nationals deprived of their citizenship were British Pakistanis, while two were of dual British and Sudanese nationality. The remaining six were Australian, Iraqi, Russian, Egyptian and Lebanese dual nationals.

Does that answer your question Phoenall?


----------



## Roudy (May 7, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> Human Rights laws do not permit states to make a citizen stateless, by depriving them of their nationality.
> 
> Yes, Britain has withdrawn / cancelled citizenship of nationals who have gone abroad to fight as mercenaries or Jihadists.  However those citizens have initially dual nationality, so are not made stateless.
> 
> ...


What are you blabbering now?  There was no state of Palestine for anybody to become stateless.  Wow.  The ignorance is astounding.


----------



## Roudy (May 7, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Beelzebub said:
> ...


Baaaaloney.  Israel does not discriminate against it's 1.8 million Arab Muslim citizens.  In fact they prefer to live in Israel more than any Arab Muslim shithole.

True story.


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## montelatici (May 7, 2014)

Roudy said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



The discriminatory nature of Israel's citizenship law is posted on an Israeli Government website.  You people are out of your minds.


----------



## Sally (May 7, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



Every country can make their own rules with regard to immigration.  Maybe Muslim converts like Haniya woud like to see the U.S. open its board to more Somalis to run wild here.  Meanwhile, isn't it a hoot that no matter which Muslim or fellow travelers are posting throughout the years, the immigration issue in Israel is sure to come up, while of course they close their eyes to what is happening to others in Muslim countries.  They actually would salivate if Israel lifted its immigration laws just so the Muslims could take over Israel and destroy that tiny country.


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## Roudy (May 7, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...


So you cannot provide a shred of evidence that there is state sponsored "discrimination" against any of the 1.8 million Arab Muslim citizens of Israel.  There goes another of your "facts" down the toilet.  FLUUUUUUUSSSHHH.  Can we get an "allah akbar" with that?


----------



## aris2chat (May 7, 2014)

montelatici said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



>>In a move designed to address new immigrants' concerns about serving in the Israeli army, the government has decided to allow newcomers to delay their mandatory service for three years if they are using that time for academic pursuits, Anglo File has learned.

The new program, to be introduced next month, aims to help encourage immigration to Israel while also giving new arrivals a chance to integrate and learn Hebrew before being conscripted.

"We introduced the new 'study-before-army' procedure to remove hurdles that worry many new immigrants, especially returning Israelis," Interior Minister Eli Yishai said. Absorption professionals reacted cautiously optimistic about the new deal.

Yishai's office, together with the Israel Defense Forces, changed the requirement that all men aged 18 to 29 who settle in Israel under the Law of Return must enlist within one year of arriving here. <<June 2010


----------



## Andylusion (May 7, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Please explain.
> ...



Right, so one accidental, unintentional attack on a US vessel, which Israel openly admitted to?   Proves what?     Can you name for me, one country on this planet that has never accidentally hit the wrong target?

You realize that Canadian and US forces in WW2, both misidentified each other as Japanese, and engaged in an all out assault on each other during Operation Cottage.    Obviously Canada and the US should be bitter enemies now....

War sucks.  War is crazy.  Things happen.     Here's a thought.... maybe since we told Israel that we would not help them, perhaps we shouldn't have had ships near by.    Or better still, we should have told them we would help them, and then they would have expected US ships in coastal waters.



> Apart from that rather obvious example, the US gives treasure and sacrifices credibility every day by its support of Israel.



Opinion, not fact.  My opinion is the opposite.



> Though you are not allowed to say it 9/11 and the general Jihad against America is due to its unjust treatment of "lesser people" more than a little, The Palestinians.



Oh bull crap.   Osama Bin Laden said many times that he was mad about US forces being stationed in Saudi Arabia, even though we were there at the request of the Saudi government.    The Saudi government met with Osama, before he was exiled, specifically to explain to him that US forces were there at their request.   When he refused to change his statements, that's when they exiled him, and he started Al Qeada.

Go read Ghost Wars by Steve Coll.   Very little of the terrorism going on, as to do with Israel, except specifically Hamas, Hezbolah, and the PNA.

Ramzi Yousef alluded to attacking the twin towers in 1991 because of the US helping Israel, but when you read statements leading up to the bombing, it had very little to do with Israel.

Further, when you look at what he did after, almost none of it fits with his claim.  He tried to blow up the Catholic Pope.   The Vatican has been a big supporter of Palestine, and extremely critical of Israel forever.   He tried to blow up Benazir Bhutto.  Was Bhutto a big Israel supporter?   He tried to blow up Philippine Airlines to Japan.   Was the Philippines a huge supporter of Israel?

Come on.   The only way someone can try and claim that the only reason these animals are trying to blow people up, is because of Isreael, is if they themselves are too ignorant to know better.



> But overall the US sacrifices wealth, credibility, strategic advantage, natural allies, and economic advantage in the cause of supporting the quite obviously racist and semi-fascist Israeli state.



Are you crazy?   Do you have any idea just how much we take for granted today, that was all developed in Israel?

Windows 2000, and Window XP, were both developed in Israel.






Flash drives were designed and first created, in Israel.

Do you even know where these emotes came from?       Not these emotes specifically, but Instant Messaging, or Internet Relay chat was started by ICQ.    Most all the chat programs out there now, and all the emotes we use regularly, are from the innovation of an Israeli company which made ICQ, which was bought by AOL and made into AOL Messenger.

Israel also is home to the Intel R&D labs, where the original 8088 CPU was built.   That may mean nothing to you, but if you an X86 CPU, Pentium 4 or earlier, you are using a CPU whose architecture was created in Israel. 186, 286, 386, 486, Pentium (586), and so on were all based on an Israeli design.

Further, the Pentium M, the first Intel chip designed for Laptops and Notebooks, was designed in Israel, as were the Intel Core, Core Solo, Core Duo, and Celeron.   In fact the Corporate code name was 'Yonah'.  Figure that one out.

And the latest the Ivy Bridge, Sandy Bridge, and Haswell CPUs from Intel today, are all Israeli designed.

Amazon's Kindle, runs on Java software, owned by Sun Microsystems, which developed non-internet based software in.....   Israel.    Amazon contacted Sun, and signed a contract given to Israel to make the software that runs every Kindle.

[ame=http://youtu.be/eqOYlnyGBs4]The new HP Indigo 7600 Digital Press - YouTube[/ame]

The HP Indigo now has 75% of the world wide market share of photo quality printing, and of course is #1 in the US.   HP purchased Indigo.... which was found and created in.... Israel.

There's not enough space on this forum for me to list all of the economic benefits, and world wide wealth created in Israel.    Even countries that oppose Israel, benefit from Israel.

Israel's water desalination plants produce so much water, that now Jordan, Egypt, and Lebanon, are drinking water that is only drinkable because of Israel.   

And you think we're losing out by supporting Israel?   Heck the entire freakin planet benefits from US supporting Israel.   All the nations of the Earth, benefit from us supporting Israel.   We should be thanked, if not paid for our support of Israel, given how much the rest of the world benefits from it.

Crazy people on this forum today.  Just flat out crazy.


----------



## Sally (May 7, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > bluesman said:
> ...



Come on, Phoenall, you know that the Muslims around the world, born into Islam or converted into Islam, even if they have never seen a Jew in their life, are taught to hate Israel and the Jews.  Even the two main sects of Islam which are busy murdering each other, when it comes to Israel, they are all on the same page.


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## montelatici (May 7, 2014)

Pyschopaths meet and it is love at first sight.


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## Indeependent (May 7, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Pyschopaths meet and it is love at first sight.



You met yourself?


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## montelatici (May 7, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Pyschopaths meet and it is love at first sight.
> ...



No, Phony met Sally.


----------



## Sally (May 7, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



No, we have met the doppleganger of all those like you who have posted the same nonsense over the years.  I guess when you are so busy posting day and night you don't think that the viewers think that something is up.  A normal person doesn't post day and night like you have.  You haven't even been around that long, and they can read just how many posts you have made in such a short time like your life depended on it.


----------



## Sally (May 7, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Pyschopaths meet and it is love at first sight.
> ...



Just look at how many posts she has made in just a short time.  For all we know there are several people posting under this same screen name since some guy popped up and said his wife comes from Spain so you know that it wasn't Haniya posting since I don't think she has a wife.


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## Phoenall (May 8, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Beelzebub said:
> ...






 What Law, link to the relevant International Law that applies. Then we can apply it to all the Islamic nations and have them dissolved


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## P F Tinmore (May 8, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> Though thinking about it, I don't believe a nation does have the absolute right to define what qualifies as its citizens.
> 
> *There is much international law to consider, not least Human Rights *(I suppose Israel doesn't much like those of course.)
> 
> ...



Indeed, and this is an aspect that has not been mentioned yet.



> In international law, when a state is dissolved and new states are established, the population follows the change of sovereignty in matters of nationality.5 As a rule, therefore, citizens of the former state should automatically acquire the nationality of the successor state in which they had already been residing.
> 
> 5  Ian Brownlie, The Relations of Nationality in Public International Law, The British Year Book of International Law, 1963, p. 220.



So, citizens of Palestine who normally lived in the area that became Israel would automatically become Israelis. Refugees would fall into this category. Immigration would have nothing to do with it.


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## Phoenall (May 8, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> Human Rights laws do not permit states to make a citizen stateless, by depriving them of their nationality.
> 
> Yes, Britain has withdrawn / cancelled citizenship of nationals who have gone abroad to fight as mercenaries or Jihadists.  However those citizens have initially dual nationality, so are not made stateless.
> 
> ...





 I never posed any question I stated as fact that you and your fellow ISLAMONAZI PROPAGANDISTS were wrong and that there is no International Law that says that a nation cant refuse to accept for citizenship. In the UK's case they have all been muslims


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## Phoenall (May 8, 2014)

Roudy said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...







 The UK for 17 years under a neo Marxist government discriminated against Christians in favour of muslims . They passed laws giving the muslims more rights and freedoms that were refused to all other ethnic/religious groups. At the borders muslims were waved through without a moments hesitation while American Christians were stopped and interviewed for hours regarding their visit.

 That is a recent thing and has caused much concern over here when considered along with the muslims being protected against arrest for child sex abuse's


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## Phoenall (May 8, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...






 So it is nothing like Islamic law then that prohibits ALL non muslims from practising their religion and from wearing white clothes and riding horses ?


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## Phoenall (May 8, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Pyschopaths meet and it is love at first sight.





 Isn't that illegal in islam ....................


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## Phoenall (May 8, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...






 Me and Sally go back a long time on various message boards, even as far back as the old AOL boards that are now extinct. We were posting before you were a stain on the ground when the seed was spilled.
 What we have is mutual respect and understanding, something the ISLAMONAZI's will never have.


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## toastman (May 8, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Beelzebub said:
> 
> 
> > Though thinking about it, I don't believe a nation does have the absolute right to define what qualifies as its citizens.
> ...



There was no Palestinian state that dissolved because Palestine was NOT A STATE when Israel declared independence. There were no 'citizens of the FORMER STATE' because Palestine was not a state then.

Once again, you post a link of some law that does not apply to Palestinians.


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## Phoenall (May 8, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Beelzebub said:
> 
> 
> > Though thinking about it, I don't believe a nation does have the absolute right to define what qualifies as its citizens.
> ...






 Only if they were not enemies of the new state, then they would be told to take a hike. The muslins refused the offer of Israeli citizenship in may 1948 so they cant come back 66 years later demanding it, there are certain clauses that they need to be aware of and agree with before they can take up citizenship. I will leave it to you to find them


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## P F Tinmore (May 8, 2014)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Beelzebub said:
> ...



Interesting premise.

One of the duties of the mandate for Palestine was to assist immigrating Jews in obtaining Palestinian citizenship. These Jews were to become citizens of what? Citizens of nothing as Israeli propaganda would have us to believe?

Something here makes no sense. Perhaps you could clear that up for us.


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## Beelzebub (May 8, 2014)

Palestine was in fact in a pre-state stage.

The British mandate should have been extended, as they had failed to do what was envisaged in bringing Palestine to statehood, with all the necessary institutions.

This was due to both the interruption of WWII and terrorist groups such as Irgun and Haganah, which had murdered Arabs and British to prevent a state being created by the indigenous people.

Good old Ariel Sharon - you remember him , the war criminal - he had a big hand in that.   Partly why the Zionists love him as he was one of their terrorists.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 8, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> Palestine was in fact in a pre-state stage.
> 
> The British mandate should have been extended, as* they had failed to do what was envisaged in bringing Palestine to statehood,* with all the necessary institutions.
> 
> ...



Indeed, the British Mandate was a monumental flop. After 25 years of occupation...er...mandate they accomplished nothing. They did not even have any elected bodies in place. All they did was start a never-ending war and pass it on to the UN.

The UN recommended a partition plan that had been rejected 10 years earlier and was rejected again. That flopped too.

How can the world assemble so many worthless people in one place?


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## Beelzebub (May 8, 2014)

Be fair P F Tinmore.

WWII was quite a distraction.
There was a lot of illicit immigration into Palestine with Nazi Germany teaming up with German Zionists to arm them, and force them into the Mandate area, massively in excess of permitted numbers, even in the 1930's.

Add to that American support for Zionism, muchly as an lever to reduce British influence, and the fact that Britain had spend most of its wealth fighting WWI, it was a tough job.

And, Palestine had NOTHING to begin, having been occupied continually by the Ottoman forces, who did nothing to educate or allow autonomous Palestinian institutions.

It was not like in India, where a relatively benign occupation had left the nation with many skilled and visionary leaders.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 8, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> Be fair P F Tinmore.
> 
> WWII was quite a distraction.
> There was a lot of illicit immigration into Palestine with Nazi Germany teaming up with German Zionists to arm them, and force them into the Mandate area, massively in excess of permitted numbers, even in the 1930's.
> ...



I am being fair. Britain got the mandate to bring Palestine to independence. They fucked up so bad that they cut and ran leaving the problems they created to the UN.

And the dufus crowd at the UN has done nothing since to correct the problem.


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## Beelzebub (May 8, 2014)

Yep.  You could be right.

Can you put your finger on what was done wrong?


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 8, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> Yep.  You could be right.
> 
> Can you put your finger on what was done wrong?



The purpose of the mandate was to bring Palestine to independence in the best interest of the native people. Instead they pushed the natives aside, like the good colonialists that they were, and pushed the agenda of foreigners. This violated the League of Nation Covenant, international law, and the rights of the native population.

The war they started continues today.


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## aris2chat (May 8, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



They were to be part of Eretz-Israel


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## P F Tinmore (May 8, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



Where was that term mentioned in the LoN covenant or the Mandate?


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## Beelzebub (May 8, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Beelzebub said:
> 
> 
> > Yep.  You could be right.
> ...




That's hardly putting your finger on it.
You are just saying they didn't do it right.

What did they do that you would have done differently?
Told the League of Nations to go f*ck itself over Zionist aspirations?
Taken all the Palestinians off the fields and into college?

Or are you unsure of the detail of the history?


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## montelatici (May 8, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



Not according to the Mandate.  As we all now know, after reading the source document, a Jewish National Home (not an independent state) was to be established within Palestine and the Jews were to become Palestinians as were the existing non-Jewish Palestinians per Article 7.

*"The Administration of Palestine shall be responsible for enacting a nationality law. There shall be included in this law provisions framed so as to facilitate the acquisition of Palestinian citizenship by Jews who take up their permanent residence in Palestine."*

The Avalon Project : The Palestine Mandate


----------



## toastman (May 8, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



What's with the deflection Tinmore? And why are you unable to accept simple facts??


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## P F Tinmore (May 8, 2014)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



What fact are you talking about?


----------



## toastman (May 8, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> Palestine was in fact in a pre-state stage.
> 
> The British mandate should have been extended, as they had failed to do what was envisaged in bringing Palestine to statehood, with all the necessary institutions.
> 
> ...



Irgun and Haganah were created to protect the local Jewish communities from being attacked like they have been several times. And where did you read that they milled Arabs and Brits to prevent a state being created by the so called 'Palestinians'??? It was the Jews who accepted the partition plan .


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## Beelzebub (May 8, 2014)

toastman said:


> Beelzebub said:
> 
> 
> > Palestine was in fact in a pre-state stage.
> ...




Accepting partition was hardly in good faith.  They felt that they could get that foothold and expand it.  And partition was not the expectation of the Mandate, just an apparent face-saver for the UN when the European invaders proved they were not going to try to get along with the natives.


----------



## toastman (May 8, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Beelzebub said:
> 
> 
> > Yep.  You could be right.
> ...



They tried to bring Palestine into independence. But the Palestinians rejected it.
That was their biggest mistake because now, they are trying to negotiate for less than what the partition plan would have given them.


----------



## toastman (May 8, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Beelzebub said:
> ...



They felt like they could expand it?? How? You're making crap up.

And yes their acceptance was in good faith, considering it was half of what they were offered originally.

Looks like you joined this forum to spew the usual Palestinian propaganda.


----------



## Beelzebub (May 8, 2014)

Toastman:

Zionists were never offered Palestine or Palestine and Trans Jordan as their own exclusive state.  

Never.


----------



## RoccoR (May 8, 2014)

_et al,_

Essentially, our friend "Beelzebub" is correct.  While under mandate, the Jewish Agency was never truly made an offer of any portion of the Territory by a competent authority.  But then, neither were the Arab Palestinians.



Beelzebub said:


> Toastman:
> 
> Zionists were never offered Palestine or Palestine and Trans Jordan as their own exclusive state.
> 
> Never.


*(COMMENT)*

The offer only came in the form of GA/RES/181(II), not to be implemented during the Mandate --- but only after termination.  

What I chuckled at was the observation that "Palestine was in fact in a pre-state stage."  _(Sorry "toastman!")_  While in some ways, this does accurately describe the condition, the Arab Palestine was pandering a "pre-state" condition for 8 Centuries or more; depending on how deep the perspective runs.  Even today, the November 1988 State of Palestine is barely able to function as an autonomously run entity.  And it is not because of the Israeli Occupation.  As I said, the Japanese and Germans both, were able to reinitialize their states under occupation and have become two of the most powerful and influential nations on the planet.  

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Beelzebub (May 8, 2014)

Oops.

Missed the moment. :/


----------



## Beelzebub (May 8, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> _et al,_
> 
> Essentially, our friend "Beelzebub" is correct.  While under mandate, the Jewish Agency was never truly made an offer of any portion of the Territory by a competent authority.  But then, neither were the Arab Palestinians.
> 
> ...



I agree.

However, the United Nations Mandate to bring Palestine to statehood after long occupation by the Ottoman Empire was more a pregnancy than a wished for tryst.

As to running Palestine now, as a Post War Germany or Japan:  Palestine is more akin to an open prison.   So your claim that they have the same opportunity is somewhat disingenuous.


----------



## Kondor3 (May 8, 2014)

Perhaps it is more accurate to say that the Palestinians *HAD* (past-tense) the same opportunity.

They could have declared Statehood simultaneously with Israel and carved off a slice of Old Palestine for themselves, and made that bid for Statehood 'stick', just as the Jews of Palestine did. But they didn't.

They could have negotiated a permanent division of Old Palestine between Jews and Muslims, as Equals or Near-Equals, with parity, at almost any time between 1948 and 1967. But they didn't.

They could have negotiated a permanent division of Old Palestine between Jews and Muslims, as the Lesser Partner, with a lesser outcome, at anytime between 1967 and the outbreak of Intifada I. But they didn't.

They could have pleaded with the Israelis to give them a second chance at a Lesser Outcome, at various stages along the way, between the outbreak of Intifada I and our present time. But they didn't.

They have missed so many chances and opportunities that they are now a "_Standing Joke_" and "_Classic Model of What NOT to Do_" in most political science and discussion and diplomatic circles.

They have repeatedly launched terror attacks outside their boundaries at innocent non-Jewish / non-Israeli targets over the past 40 years and more, and made many unforgiving enemies as a result, who might otherwise have proven more sympathetic.

They are brain dead in the contexts of Diplomacy and Public Relations.

They are a melange of blood lines, including both long-resident and recently-migrated ancestral stock from the surrounding region, and their claims to ownership and sovereignty are highly suspect, ancient and untraceable for the most part, and rendered obsolete by the events of the past 66 years and more, including Israeli victories on the battlefield, and there is no international momentum to overturn those battlefield decisions by coercive military measures from the UN et al, and there never will be.

The world at-large, beyond the domain of Islam, and certainly throughout much of The West, is bone-tired of their intransigence and stupidity and savagery, they've long-since burned through most of whatever goodwill that they once might have claimed, and they've pretty-much played out their hand, with no more trump cards left to play which are likely to do them the slightest good.

Their own neighboring Muslim states (Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, et al) have pretty much washed their hands of them, having repeatedly wasted much blood and treasure on their behalf to no practical and useful end, to the point where some of those Muslim neighbors (Egypt, Jordan) are actually collaborating with the Israelis in connection with blockading and/or monitoring and containing the mad-dog Palestinians.

It's over.

It's been over for 66 years, by many reasonable criteria, and it's certainly been over for 47 years, given that the 1967 Six Day War put the Israelis in a very long-term ascendant and superior position over both the Palestinians and their Muslim neighbor-states.

There is no Arab cavalry coming over the hill to rescue the Palestinians this time.

It's time for the Palestinians to throw in the towel, pack their bags, and leave - for good; writing off old claims as un-enforceable and obsolete, and setting about the task of building new and happy lives elsewhere, in some place or another that actually wants and will accept some of them, and walking away from a hopeless situation.

It's all well-and-good to beat one's breast and to loudly shout 'Never surrender', but it will be quicker and easier and better for the Palestinians, to calm themselves, regain a measure of sanity, and begin negotiations for collective relocation assistance, from the Israelis, the UN, and their Muslim neighbors; which is about the only halfway decent Deal which they can probably and realistically negotiate at this very late stage in the game. In the end, the result will be the same. Best to get something for your trouble and some help relocating, on the way out the door, while the possibility for obtaining such assistance still exists.


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## Phoenall (May 8, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Beelzebub said:
> 
> 
> > Be fair P F Tinmore.
> ...






 WRONG as history shows the Nazi muslim Hussieni started his blood libels and stirred up a hornets nest. This led to the arab muslims becoming violent and using terrorism to get their way. The British were very nearly bankrupt from WW2 so did not have the funds to put down the arab muslim riots so handed the reigns over to the UN who screwed up by giving the arab muslims even more land. What should have happened is the UN should have kept to the agreements and told the arabs that any action would result in armed intervention and sanctions.

 So once again history shows that in is arab muslim violence and terrorism behind the worlds problems.


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## Beelzebub (May 8, 2014)

Why do you say "blood libels" Phoney?


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## Phoenall (May 8, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> Yep.  You could be right.
> 
> Can you put your finger on what was done wrong?






 I can the British did not take out Hussieni when they had the chance, instead they tried to reason with him and ended up losing


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## Beelzebub (May 8, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> Beelzebub said:
> 
> 
> > Yep.  You could be right.
> ...




That question wasn't to you Phoney.
But you missed the question which was.

Maybe you can string together something more meaningful than the above ... ?


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## Phoenall (May 8, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Beelzebub said:
> 
> 
> > Yep.  You could be right.
> ...






 WRONG the native arab muslims received 95% of Palestine for their help in beating the Ottoman empire. That was always the deal as was giving the Jews the NATIONAL HOME that all races have as enshrined in the LoN and U.N. charters.  Read the remit of the mandate and you see that it clearly states to assist the indigenous, not to force independence on them. You should really read the UN and International books written on the history of the mandate, not the ones produced by ISLAMONAZIS


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## Phoenall (May 8, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...






 It wasn't as it did not have that name then, it was called the NATIONAL HOME FOR THE JEWS . By the way the Palestinian citizenship referred to was under the mandate making in British mandate Palestinian.


 Unless you can find a Palestine passport from before 1988 somewhere ?


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## Beelzebub (May 8, 2014)

I defer to Montelatici's even better example.


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## montelatici (May 8, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...





http://www.palestineremembered.com/Gaza/al-Khisas/Picture9516.jpg


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## Phoenall (May 8, 2014)

montelatici said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...






 You missed out the part that says Palestinian mandate citizenship, and the RESURECTED NATIONAL HOME OF THE JEWS . Both destroy your arguments as they mean the polar opposite of what you have posted. 
 The British enacted such a law and gave the inhabitants British mandate citizenship. ( note it does not say nationality, but citizenship) And that the Jews were to be given land to RESURECT THEIR NATIONAL HOME ( note not a muslim national home but a Jewish one ) Further to this in agreement with the human rights laws of the time the non Jews were not to be adversely affected and would be given the opportunity to become citizens of the NATIONAL HOME with full rights. Now as then enemies of a country that reside in that country can be either evicted or incarcerated to bring about an end to hostilities.


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## Phoenall (May 8, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...






 No date so a massive fail. try again


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## Phoenall (May 8, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...






 That the citizenship mentioned was that of British mandate Palestinian and not as a citizen of the nation of Palestine.


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## Phoenall (May 8, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Beelzebub said:
> ...






 Partition was always the mandates intent as they had already partitioned Palestine into Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Transjordan, Egypt and Saudi Arabia. This left 5% of the original Palestine land for the RESURECTED NATIONAL HOME FOR THE JEWS. If Husseini had been silenced before wars end then there would not have been any problems.
 It was the arab muslims that showed they would not get along with their former slaves and started violent uprisings and terrorist attacks to force the British into giving in to their demands. They then declared open war on the Jews contrary to the UN charter which they were signatories to


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## aris2chat (May 8, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



>>The Palestine Mandate
The Council of the League of Nations:

Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have agreed, for the purpose of giving effect to the provisions of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations, to entrust to a Mandatory selected by the said Powers the administration of the territory of Palestine, which formerly belonged to the Turkish Empire, within such boundaries as may be fixed by them; and

Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favor of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country; and

Whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country; and

Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have selected His Britannic Majesty as the Mandatory for Palestine; and

Whereas the mandate in respect of Palestine has been formulated in the following terms and submitted to the Council of the League for approval; and

Whereas His Britannic Majesty has accepted the mandate in respect of Palestine and undertaken to exercise it on behalf of the League of Nations in conformity with the following provisions; and

Whereas by the afore-mentioned Article 22 (paragraph 8), it is provided that the degree of authority, control or administration to be exercised by the Mandatory, not having been previously agreed upon by the Members of the League, shall be explicitly defined by the Council of the League Of Nations;

confirming the said Mandate, defines its terms as follows: .......<<
The Avalon Project : The Palestine Mandate


It does not specify a jewish state because it is talking about the mandates around the world, not just the Palestinian Mandate.  It is the responsibility to divide up and create states in a way that is in the best interest of the future states.  Best interest for the jews was to have their own jewish state.  Israel was ready, but the palestinian arabs were not, did not agree to the existence of Israel.
>>The best method of giving practical effect to this principle is that the tutelage of such peoples should be entrusted to advanced nations who by reason of their resources, their experience or their geographical position can best undertake this responsibility, and who are willing to accept it, and that this tutelage should be exercised by them as Mandatories on behalf of the League.

The character of the mandate must differ according to the stage of the development of the people, the geographical situation of the territory, its economic conditions and other similar circumstances.

Certain communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire have reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognized subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone. The wishes of these communities must be a principal consideration in the selection of the Mandatory. ...<<
ARTICLE 22
Avalon Project - The Covenant of the League of Nations


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## Beelzebub (May 8, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> Beelzebub said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...




I got to your "former slaves" and gave up.

You really must not invent history to suit yourself Phoney.


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## P F Tinmore (May 8, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



Not true.

The mandate was not a nation or state. It had no land. It had no citizens.

It was an administration under temporary assignment.

Palestine was the country that it was assigned to.


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## aris2chat (May 8, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Beelzebub said:
> ...



The reason Israel expanded was because arabs ran away and left the land in Israel hands when they stopped fighting.  Israel later pass a law that all land acquired during a defensive war would become permanent part of Israel.  Land abandoned could be developed or appropriated for pubic services.  Land is slow to be used as almost every where you dig there are artifices that need to be carefully removed and cataloged by the antiquity department.


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## Beelzebub (May 8, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> The reason Israel expanded was because arabs ran away and left the land in Israel hands when they stopped fighting.  Israel later pass a law that all land acquired during a defensive war would become permanent part of Israel.  Land abandoned could be developed or appropriated for pubic services.  Land is slow to be used as almost every where you dig there are artifices that need to be carefully removed and cataloged by the antiquity department.



Very nice.

I suppose Brunei could pass a law that says it owns all land if the nations name starts with an 'F'.
Wouldn't make it legal and wouldn't make it so.

Same with Israel.  They can do what they like but International Law will come knock them over the head, and put them right.


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## Phoenall (May 8, 2014)

toastman said:


> Beelzebub said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...




 Actually they ended up with less than a third of the original plan due to the British governments ANTI SEMITISM and JEW HATRED


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## aris2chat (May 8, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



>>effective jurisdiction was limited to the Gaza Strip<<
crazy mufti name himself president.  He had not authority since Gaza was under Egyptian control

1948 trans-jordan had already announced it's intention to annex the west bank.  We know how that worked out.


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## Phoenall (May 8, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> Toastman:
> 
> Zionists were never offered Palestine or Palestine and Trans Jordan as their own exclusive state.
> 
> Never.






 Map from the league of Nations April 24 1920  showing the proposed JEWISH NATIONAL HOME. Looks very much like Transjordan and what is now known as Palestine and Israel to me and billions of other people.

 A question for you and all the other pro Palestinians on here were is the national home of the Saudi Arabian muslims, the Pakistani muslims or the Iranian muslims ?


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## Phoenall (May 8, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > _et al,_
> ...






 can you provide a link to the UN mandate and were it says that it was to bring Palestine to statehood.


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## aris2chat (May 8, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> Beelzebub said:
> 
> 
> > Toastman:
> ...



greater israel was in theory the lands from Genesis 15:18-21
there was expected to be give and take a bit.  British took a lot for the arabs to make jordan and what was to be a palestinian state.  Jordan and egypt got the WB and gaza.  Israel took the rest.


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## Phoenall (May 8, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> Why do you say "blood libels" Phoney?






 Because the original one was in regards to Jews making Passover bread with the blood of Christian babies. He instigated the Hebron riots that resulted in the mass murder of many Jews with a series of "blood libels". Or would you prefer I called them ISLAMONAZI LIES AND RACISM


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## Phoenall (May 8, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Beelzebub said:
> ...






 No the question was the one posed above

*Can you put your finger on what was done wrong?*


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## toastman (May 8, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



Palestine was a TERRITORY that it was assigned to.

Palestine only became a country in 1988.

Why must this be repeated to you over and over?


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## Beelzebub (May 8, 2014)

The question isn't in question toast.

It the questionee.  Who is Not you.

It was to PF Tinmore.
You are not an alias of him are you?

There was another one for you, but I have lost interest in your input.


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## aris2chat (May 8, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> Beelzebub said:
> 
> 
> > Why do you say "blood libels" Phoney?
> ...



Blood libel: a false, incendiary claim against Jews

He used the term because that is what they are.


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## Beelzebub (May 8, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Beelzebub said:
> ...




Again:  you presume to answer for another.  
Is he incapacitated?  
Did he sign over power of attorney to you?
Are you claiming to be a mind reader or his alias?

Your answer is piss poor anyway, thanks, so I will wait for Phoneys explanation.


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## Beelzebub (May 8, 2014)

Phoenall said:


> Beelzebub said:
> 
> 
> > Why do you say "blood libels" Phoney?
> ...



So how do you define a 'Blood' liable then?

It seems it needs to have nothing at all to do with blood, if it stretches to this.  As to liable:  are you sure?  Liable is a legal term, and is usually actionable.


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## toastman (May 8, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> The question isn't in question toast.
> 
> It the questionee.  Who is Not you.
> 
> ...



Geez, whining again?


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## toastman (May 8, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> Phoenall said:
> 
> 
> > Beelzebub said:
> ...



What does it say right under Phoenals username??


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## P F Tinmore (May 8, 2014)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



Because it is not true no matter how many times you say it.


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## Beelzebub (May 8, 2014)

toastman said:


> Beelzebub said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



Haha.
Thanks toast.

I hadn't noticed and that WAS a bit of a surprise.


We Will Remember Him.


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## toastman (May 8, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Beelzebub said:
> ...



Thats what the pink means.


I doubt it's permanent though. It's probably just for a few days


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## toastman (May 8, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



There's something very wrong with you.

What EXACT date did Palestine become a country?


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## aris2chat (May 8, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > Phoenall said:
> ...



this is a message board not a private chat.  I can respond to any post I wish to.
Phoen is very capable, but might not be online or slower to respond to a post.

I just gave a short explanation of the term so you can understand why it was used.
If you want a private chat with a poster by private message, you can leave a message on a person's board, you can use email.  If you post on the message board, it is not private and any body can reply.


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## Beelzebub (May 8, 2014)

Yes, but I am impressed at your ability to speak for what someone else was thinking.

Please never do it for me.
Thank you aris.


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## Beelzebub (May 8, 2014)

toastman said:


> P F Tinmore said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



I wont presume to answer, but will add this, as the concept of 'Country' may otherwise be ambiguous:



> A country is a region identified as a distinct entity in political geography. A country may be an independent sovereign state or one that is occupied by another state, as a non-sovereign or formerly sovereign political division, or a geographic region associated with sets of previously independent or differently associated peoples with distinct political characteristics. Regardless of the physical geography, in the modern internationally accepted legal definition as defined by the League of Nations in 1937 and reaffirmed by the United Nations in 1945, a resident of a country is subject to the independent exercise of legal jurisdiction.
> Sometimes the word country is used to refer both to sovereign states and to other political entities,[1][2][3] while other times it refers only to states.[4] For example, the CIA World Factbook uses the word in its "Country name" field to refer to "a wide variety of dependencies, areas of special sovereignty, uninhabited islands, and other entities in addition to the traditional countries or independent states"



You are welcome.


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## toastman (May 8, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> Yes, but I am impressed at your ability to speak for what someone else was thinking.
> 
> Please never do it for me.
> Thank you.



I don't know what you're talking about.


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## toastman (May 8, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore said:
> ...



The answer to my question is 1988.

If you do just a tiny bit of research, you will find out that I'm right.

Palestine became a sovereign state in 1988. This is not up for debate.


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## montelatici (May 8, 2014)

toastman said:


> Beelzebub said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



Palestine is not a sovereign state.  A sovereign state must have control of its borders as a bare minimum.


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## toastman (May 8, 2014)

montelatici said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Beelzebub said:
> ...



Do you consider 'sovereign state' and ' country' to mean the same thing?


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## aris2chat (May 8, 2014)

toastman said:


> Beelzebub said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, but I am impressed at your ability to speak for what someone else was thinking.
> ...



I gave an explanation for the term blood libel.

Beelz thought he was on a private chat and not an open message board.  He did not think I should have replied to the post.


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## toastman (May 8, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Beelzebub said:
> ...



Ob, I thought he was talking to me.


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## aris2chat (May 8, 2014)

toastman said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



in one post, he was, but he used the term phony with Phoeny 
He is the one confused.


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## montelatici (May 8, 2014)

toastman said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



It can be the same thing and it doesn't have to be.  England is a country, for example, but is not a sovereign state.


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## Auldhippy (May 11, 2014)

Not at all sure how Palestine never being a "state" helps israel's claim to the land, it wasn't a state either.


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## Lipush (May 11, 2014)

Your point being...


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## RoccoR (May 11, 2014)

montelatici,  _et al,_

Ah, a slight of hand here.



montelatici said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

That is technically correct.  Not all counties are sovereign.  In the case of England, it is a country, under the sovereignty of the United Kingdom; which is a Commonwealth realm. 

The case of Palestine, "After the 15th May, 1948, Palestine will continue to be a legal entity but it will still not be a sovereign state because it will not be immediately self-governing."  It became sovereign in 1988; uncontested by the Occupying Power which allowed the Arab Palestinian to exercise self-determination.

Most Respectfully, 
R


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## toastman (May 11, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> montelatici,  _et al,_
> 
> Ah, a slight of hand here.
> 
> ...



What was Palestine called from 1917 until 1988?
A region? Territory? Legal entity? All of them?


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## RoccoR (May 11, 2014)

toastman,  _et al,_

"Palestine was defined by the Order in Council.  The Territory under Mandate was short titled as Palestine.  From 1922 to 1948, it was described by the Mandatory as a "legal entity but it is not a sovereign state. Palestine is a territory administered under mandate by His Majesty (in respect of the United Kingdom), who is entirely responsible both for its internal administration and for its foreign affairs." 



toastman said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici,  _et al,_
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

"The limits of this Order are the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies, hereinafter described as Palestine."

"The Mandate" means the Mandate for Palestine which was confirmed, and the terms of which were defined by the Council of the League of Nations on the 24th day of July, 1922. 

In 1917, it was "enemy held territory of the Ottoman Empire."  

In 1920, the administration of Palestine, was said to be "within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers."

Today, the 1988 Arab State of Palestine, is defined by the general people as land in which the populations believes:


Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine.
There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## Roudy (May 11, 2014)

Auldhippy said:


> Not at all sure how Palestine never being a "state" helps israel's claim to the land, it wasn't a state either.


It was owned by the Ottoman Empire for 700 years, and then under the control of the British and French, who divided it as the conquerors.  In other words the Arabs had jack to say about what was done to the land.


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## Auldhippy (May 11, 2014)

Except Col McMahon (of those conquerors)  offered the Palestinians autonomy in return for their aid and it was Palestinian beduin that T E Lawrence led to destroy the Ottoman trade routes to the Red Sea.


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## P F Tinmore (May 11, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> toastman,  _et al,_
> 
> "Palestine was defined by the Order in Council.  The Territory under Mandate was short titled as Palestine.  From 1922 to 1948, it was described by the Mandatory as a "legal entity but it is not a sovereign state. Palestine is a territory administered under mandate by His Majesty (in respect of the United Kingdom), who is entirely responsible both for its internal administration and for its foreign affairs."
> 
> ...



Palestine's final international border was set when the LoN approved Britain's proposed border between Palestine and Transjordan in 1922.

The Palestinian's nationality and citizenship were already determined by the time Palestine was separated from Turkey in 1924.

Britain was temporarily assigned to Palestine to help the people achieve independence.


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## RoccoR (May 11, 2014)

P F Tinmore,  _et al,_

Hummm!  I'm not sure any of that is correct.



RoccoR said:


> toastman,  _et al,_
> 
> "Palestine was defined by the Order in Council.  The Territory under Mandate was short titled as Palestine.  From 1922 to 1948, it was described by the Mandatory as a "legal entity but it is not a sovereign state. Palestine is a territory administered under mandate by His Majesty (in respect of the United Kingdom), who is entirely responsible both for its internal administration and for its foreign affairs."
> 
> ...





P F Tinmore said:


> Palestine's final international border was set when the LoN approved Britain's proposed border between Palestine and Transjordan in 1922.


*(COMMENT)*

This depends on a couple of interpretation:
If you mean that there was an boundary between the Territory under Mandate west of the Jordan River, and the Territory under Mandate east of the Jordan River (AKA Trans-Jordan), then you would be correct.

Remember, the name on the Mandate is "Administration of "PALESTINE AND TRANS-JORDAN."  It was all one mandate.  The Hashemite Kingdom was still being assembled.


On May 15, 1923 (not 1922), Britain formally recognized the Emirate of Transjordan as a state under the leadership of Emir Abdullah.
In May 1925, the Aqaba and Maan districts of the Hijaz became part of Transjordan.
On March 22, 1946, new Anglo-Trans-Jordanian treaty, ending the British mandate and gaining full independence for Transjordan. 
May 25, 1946, the Trans-jordanian parliament proclaimed Abdullah King, while officially changing the name of the country from the Emirate of Trans-Jordan to the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan.
See the Government History Site on the Hashemite Kingdom for details.​


P F Tinmore said:


> The Palestinian's nationality and citizenship were already determined by the time Palestine was separated from Turkey in 1924.


*(COMMENT)*

If you mean the Citizenship and Nationality of the Territory under Mandate, then you would be correct.  But there was no self-governing entity known as Palestine.  The citizenship was initially granted under the Order in Council (1922) as amended by the citizenship law of 1925.



P F Tinmore said:


> Britain was temporarily assigned to Palestine to help the people achieve independence.


*(COMMENT)*

What is "temporary?"  

It is my understanding that the Palestinians Declared Independence in November 1988 pursuant to the 1947 Resolution; which was acknowledged the following month.  The Palestinians rejected the option in January 1948.

Otherwise, I sorta see your points.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## toastman (May 11, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > toastman,  _et al,_
> ...



Palestine has no borders.


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## P F Tinmore (May 11, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> 
> Hummm!  I'm not sure any of that is correct.
> 
> ...





> Certain communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire have reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognized subject to the* rendering of administrative advice and assistance *by a Mandatory* until such time as they are able to stand alone. *
> 
> Avalon Project - The Covenant of the League of Nations



There was an and time envisioned determined by the success of the mandatory. Of course the mandate was a monumental flop and it failed in any of its goals.

It was a temporary administrative not an ownership position. The mandate did not own beans.


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## Auldhippy (May 11, 2014)

Future Palestinian state

The Palestinian territories are part of the area intended by the United Nations to become the territory of the future State of Palestine.[41] Originally, a larger area was allotted to the planned Palestinian state in Resolution 181 of 29 November 1947, but the Arabs rejected it and in the 1948 Palestine war, the Israeli army conquered major parts of it. While in the Partition Plan about 42% of historic Palestine was destined for the Arabic state, the Palestinian territories constitute only some 23%.[42] The last figure is including all space occupied by Israeli settlements, walls and roads.

In the UN, nearly all countries voted in favour of Resolution 58/292 of 17 May 2004; namely, that the boundaries of a future Palestinian state should be based on the pre-1967 borders, which correspond with the Green Line. The Resolution affirmed, in connection with the Palestinian right to self-determination and to sovereignty, that the independent State of Palestine should be based on the pre-1967 borders.[41] In Resolution 43/177 of 15 December 1988, the declaration of independence of the State of Palestine was acknowledged by the UN General Assembly,[43] but it was not admitted as a member state. In the same resolution, their sovereignty over the Occupied Palestinian Territories was recognized.

On 29 November 2012, the UN General Assembly passed United Nations General Assembly resolution 67/19 changing Palestine's "entity" status to "non-member state" by a vote of 138 to 9, with 41 abstentions.[44][45]

Palestinian territories - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Auldhippy (May 11, 2014)

Law of Nations: War, whether won or lost, is not a legitimate aquisition of territory


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 11, 2014)

Auldhippy said:


> Future Palestinian state
> 
> The Palestinian territories are part of the area intended by the United Nations to become the territory of the future State of Palestine.[41] Originally, a larger area was allotted to the planned Palestinian state in Resolution 181 of 29 November 1947, but the Arabs rejected it and in the 1948 Palestine war, the Israeli army conquered major parts of it. While in the Partition Plan about 42% of historic Palestine was destined for the Arabic state, the Palestinian territories constitute only some 23%.[42] The last figure is including all space occupied by Israeli settlements, walls and roads.
> 
> ...



What people fail to mention is that Palestine was (is) a non self governing territory.

The people, contrary to popular propaganda, have inalienable rights:
The right to self determination without external interference.
The right to independence and sovereignty.
The right to territorial integrity.

Any denial of those rights is a violation of international law.


----------



## Kondor3 (May 11, 2014)

Auldhippy said:


> ...On 29 November 2012, the UN General Assembly passed United Nations General Assembly resolution 67/19 changing Palestine's "entity" status to "non-member state" by a vote of 138 to 9, with 41 abstentions...


At the current rate of land-annexation by Israel...

Give it another couple of years...

Palestine with be the only non-member State with a land-mass smaller than that of the Vatican...

With Palestinians standing 5-deep on each others' shoulders...

More like a Clown Car than a State...






While the Israelis will be printing-up extra copies of that UN Resolution, to augment their supply of toilet paper...


----------



## Kondor3 (May 11, 2014)

Auldhippy said:


> Law of Nations: War, whether won or lost, is not a legitimate aquisition of territory


"Mister Marshall has made his decision. Now let him enforce it."


----------



## Kondor3 (May 11, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Any denial of those rights is a violation of international law.


You can always sue them... or boycott them...


----------



## RoccoR (May 11, 2014)

P F Tinmore,  _et al,_

Well, that is an assessment.  To some degree, it has validity.



P F Tinmore said:


> > Certain communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire have reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognized subject to the* rendering of administrative advice and assistance *by a Mandatory* until such time as they are able to stand alone. *
> >
> > Avalon Project - The Covenant of the League of Nations
> 
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

Yes, I agree.  If by ownership you mean sovereign control then --- I have to agree.  But then, the Arab did not have sovereign rights to the territory either.  Territorial control went to the Allied Powers and League of Nations, and not the indigenous population of the undefined sub-regions in from the Mediterranean to the frontier of Persia.

It is rather naive, in my opinion, to suggest that all the ills that befell the region we call Palestine, were the fault of the Mandatory (UK).  The Arab Palestinian made little or no effort in the development of the territory.  The general population was focused almost entirely on conflict as a means of resolution; pouring the vast majority of their resources into that endeavor.  

The number of complaints the Palestinian writes per month is just pathetic and childlike in mentality.  And the sheer numbers would level a small forest just to print.  

If the Palestinian want to be a prosperous nation, then they have to change their way of life; focusing on that which promotes peace.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 11, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> 
> Well, that is an assessment.  To some degree, it has validity.
> 
> ...





> But then, the Arab did not have sovereign rights to the territory either.



But the people in non self governing territories do have specific inalienable rights.

You are incorrect.


----------



## toastman (May 11, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> ...



No, you are incorrect, as always.


----------



## montelatici (May 11, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> 
> Well, that is an assessment.  To some degree, it has validity.
> 
> ...



"The Arab Palestinian made little or no effort in the development of the territory. The general population was focused almost entirely on conflict as a means of resolution; pouring the vast majority of their resources into that endeavor. "

The Christians and Muslims were resisting a European colonization project, like any people in the process of being colonized would do.  What would you have had them do, welcome settlers bent on taking their land and displacing them?  Do you ever think about the bullshit and propaganda you post.


----------



## toastman (May 11, 2014)

montelatici said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> ...



Rocco posting propaganda?? Now I know you're full of shit. 
Rocco is the last poster here who would resort to propaganda, unlike the PaliNazis who thrive on propaganda. 

Everything Rocco just said is 100% correct. If you can't handle the truth, then you shouldn't be posting here.


----------



## RoccoR (May 11, 2014)

P F Tinmore,  _et al,_

You're mixing up the rights.



P F Tinmore said:


> > But then, the Arab did not have sovereign rights to the territory either.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

You were previously talking about the Mandatory not having sovereign territorial rights, and I indicated that neither did the Arab Palestinian.

Everyone on the planet has inalienable rights, including the Jewish People.  It is not unique to the Arab Palestinian; they are not special.  Universal realization of the right of peoples to self-determination enshrined in the Charter of the United Nations and embodied in the International Covenants on Human Rights, is just as much a part of the rights the Jewish People have as the Arab.  Bearing in mind that nothing in this United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples may be used to deny any peoples their right to self-determination, exercised in conformity with international law.

But in having the rights, the Arab League cannot amass an Army of an external nature, and attempt to take by force that which could not be achieved through diplomacy, or peaceful means.  The Palestinians have never been conferred some special authorization to use force.  

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Indeependent (May 11, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> 
> You're mixing up the rights.
> 
> ...



OH YEAH!?
Bu-bu-bu-bull...


----------



## toastman (May 11, 2014)

montelatici said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> ...



What did you expect Israel to do, allow the Palestinians to launch terror campaigns against them without fighting back?
And your colonization claim is a massive lie. The Palestinians had several opportunities so have an independent state, but kept rejecting them because they thought they could defeat Israel and have all of the land.
Now that they realize that they cannot defeat Israel, they are trying for a two state solution.
Too little too late.


----------



## toastman (May 11, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> ...



Huh?


----------



## Indeependent (May 11, 2014)

toastman said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



I was attempting to mock Monte.


----------



## toastman (May 11, 2014)

Indeependent said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



Oh hahahaha. 

Makes sense now.


----------



## montelatici (May 11, 2014)

The Christians and Muslims of Palestine were not trying to take anything.  They were resisting being dispossessed by European settlers which would result in the consequential loss of their civil rights, which had been guaranteed by the terms of the Mandate. The Arab states were assisting the the Christians and Muslims.  The actions of the settler military, Irgun, Haghana etc., which included the destruction of Christian and Muslim villages (both inside and outside the Jeiwsh part of the partition) and expulsion of as many non-Jews as possible is outlined in Plan Dalet.  The Arab states intervened in an attempt to prevent the ethnic cleansing. Obviously, they were not successful, however, to continue trumpeting propaganda, that has been discredited, that implies that the Palestinians or the Arab states were the aggressors, is ludicrous.


----------



## montelatici (May 11, 2014)

toastman said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



The Europeans did what European colonial settlers always do.  Europeans initially, with superior arms, technology and organization, overcome the indigenous people.  If they are able to destroy the local culture and are successful in in destroying most of the indigenous population, the result is Australia, Chile, Argentina the U.S., Mexico etc.  If not, the result is Algeria, South Africa, Rhodesia etc.  

I see Israel more in the latter category given that they have not destroyed the Christian and Muslim culture, have not destroyed the non-Jewish population.  And, they will not be allowed to do so, no matter what you think.

So, if the Israelis had been smart, they would have agreed to a sovereign Palestinian state and would not have expanded Israel to the point that a two-state solution is no longer possible.  Only a democratic secular state is possible, or an Apartheid state is possible.  And, Apartheid states don't last long after the world begins to place sanctions on them.


----------



## toastman (May 11, 2014)

montelatici said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



If Arafat gave a shit about his people, he would have accepted the offer given to him. 
The Palestinians could have had a state ten time over.


----------



## montelatici (May 12, 2014)

toastman said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



He is the best propagandist posting here.  For example, he fails to acknowledge that the idea of settling Europeans in Palestine was a British idea and the settling of Europeans was the cause of the conflict.  European settlers in all continents where they settled have caused conflict with the local populations, why would they have thought that it would be any different in Palestine?  

In some cases the Europeans have been able to destroy the local culture and eliminate a great part or all of the indigenous population, so the conflicts have ended.  In other cases they have not been able to do so and the conflict has continued.  That is the case in Palestine.


----------



## Roudy (May 12, 2014)

montelatici said:


> The Christians and Muslims of Palestine were not trying to take anything.  They were resisting being dispossessed by European settlers which would result in the consequential loss of their civil rights, which had been guaranteed by the terms of the Mandate. The Arab states were assisting the the Christians and Muslims.  The actions of the settler military, Irgun, Haghana etc., which included the destruction of Christian and Muslim villages (both inside and outside the Jeiwsh part of the partition) and expulsion of as many non-Jews as possible is outlined in Plan Dalet.  The Arab states intervened in an attempt to prevent the ethnic cleansing. Obviously, they were not successful, however, to continue trumpeting propaganda, that has been discredited, that implies that the Palestinians or the Arab states were the aggressors, is ludicrous.


You mean the Arab / Muslim invaders were trying to hold on to land they had invaded and stolen.  What a goofball!  Ha ha ha.


----------



## Roudy (May 12, 2014)

montelatici said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...


However in most cases it was the Arabs who ravaged and invaded lands and dispossessed people and forced their barbaric culture and religion upon them.  And now their descendants decided to create this new identity called "Palestinian", which applied to Jews only until the Arabs decided to hijack that identity in the 1960's.

It's really hilarious how this troll false IslamoNazi propogandist and convert to Islam MOHOMOD Latici accuses Rocco, probably the most objective person on this board, as a propagandist.


----------



## Kondor3 (May 12, 2014)

Roudy said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > The Christians and Muslims of Palestine were not trying to take anything.  They were resisting being dispossessed by European settlers which would result in the consequential loss of their civil rights, which had been guaranteed by the terms of the Mandate. The Arab states were assisting the the Christians and Muslims.  The actions of the settler military, Irgun, Haghana etc., which included the destruction of Christian and Muslim villages (both inside and outside the Jeiwsh part of the partition) and expulsion of as many non-Jews as possible is outlined in Plan Dalet.  The Arab states intervened in an attempt to prevent the ethnic cleansing. Obviously, they were not successful, however, to continue trumpeting propaganda, that has been discredited, that implies that the Palestinians or the Arab states were the aggressors, is ludicrous.
> ...


Have you noticed Monty's persistence in insisting that Christians and Muslims are in the same boat... a roundabout way of attempting to Divide and Conquer... to get some larger percentage of Christians to take side with the Muslims?

My guess is, 9-11 and the London Tube Bombings pretty much squelched any chance of that ever materializing in our lifetimes, to any appreciable and decisive extent...

Attempt at 'Divide and Conquer' noted... and rejected.


----------



## Roudy (May 12, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...


Yeah ain't it funny.  According to MOHOMOD Latici, it's Muslims AND Christians that are fighting the evil Jooooos.  Just refresh my memory was it the evil Joooos that kidnapped a school filled with 300 Christian girls in Nigeria for the crime of being Christian and wanting an education, or was it Muslim animals.  I heard they forcibly converted them to Islam and already sold some of them as slaves, because that what Islam allows Mooooslems to do.  Just wondering.....


----------



## toastman (May 12, 2014)

montelatici said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



You don't even know what propaganda is. You accuse ANYONE who doesn't agree with you to be a propagandist, and now you have the nerve to accuse Rocco of being one?
You're pathetic and you're a liar.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 12, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QHzuYcuIQY]Christians in Palestine - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Kondor3 (May 12, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


Life is, indeed, difficult for Christians who sided with the Muslims rather than the Jews.

But the Jews of Israel are far more tolerant of Christianity within their borders than the Muslims in several neighboring countries, including Egypt.

The Jews are in the process of carving-out a Jewish State.

That means a State designed for Jews.

Insofar as I have been able to discern, the Jews of Israel have always been agreeable to minority percentages of their population being either Muslim or Christian in confession.

But let's get real here.

Christians represent 8% of the West Bank population.

Christians represent .07% (7/10 of 1%) of the Gaza population.

It's a flea... a pimple... hardly worth noticing.

In any future Expulsion from either the West Bank or Gaza...

We'll almost certainly see large numbers of Muslims evicted and expelled...

I seriously doubt that the Christians will receive the same official treatment...

They're a different and better class of potential citizen.


----------



## Roudy (May 12, 2014)

Yup, nice piece of false propaganda.  Christians around the world should be worried about Jooooos and not Muslims, right?


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 12, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Yup, nice piece of false propaganda.  Christians around the world should be worried about Jooooos and not Muslims, right?



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gjD36JydSE]Palestinian Christians - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Kondor3 (May 12, 2014)

Anybody got any file-footage of Egyptian Muslims giving Egyptian Coptic Christians a hard time?

Oh... wait... that's right... YouTube and the Internet are choked with such examples.

And that's just ONE Muslim country.

Next slide, please.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 12, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> Anybody got any file-footage of Egyptian Muslims giving Egyptian Coptic Christians a hard time?
> 
> Oh... wait... that's right... YouTube and the Internet are choked with such examples.
> 
> ...



And it is not Palestine.


----------



## Roudy (May 12, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Yup, nice piece of false propaganda.  Christians around the world should be worried about Jooooos and not Muslims, right?
> ...


Yup, it's just such a nice safe haven for Christians to be among these Islamist animals.  I mean what Christian in his right mind would chose to be among Joooos rather than these angels?!  Tinmore, how about we buy you a one-way ticket to Hamas Gaza shithole? Ha ha ha!

*Hamas Imposes Radical New Law: Lashings, Amputations, and Massive Executions
*
March 28 2014

Hamas is now trying to outdo the Taliban in imposing new Shar'ia inspired draconian punishments, including amputations of limbs and massive increases in lashings and executions. A senior Hamas official told Gulf News that a new punitive law, "inspired by" Shar'ia Law, is required to replace the former and "impractical" one. The article states that there will be a minimum of 20 lashes for minor offenses and a minimum of 80 lashes for criminal cases: the death penalty will also be expanded in accordance with the Shar'ia. In addition, the new law includes cutting off the hands of a thief.

*CHRISTIANS WARNED: ACCEPT ISLAMIC LAW*

Christians can continue living safely in the Gaza Strip only if they accept Islamic law, including a ban on alcohol and on women roaming publicly without proper head coverings, according to an Islamist leader in Gaza.  The militant leader said Christians in Gaza who engage in &#8220;missionary activity&#8221; will be &#8220;dealt with harshly.&#8221;

The threats come two days after a church and Christian school in Gaza was attacked following the seizure of power in the territory by the Hamas terror group.

&#8220;I expect our Christian neighbors to understand the new Hamas rule means real changes. They must be ready for Islamic rule if they want to live in peace in Gaza,&#8221; said Sheik Abu Saqer, leader of Jihadia Salafiya, an Islamic outreach movement that recently announced the opening of a &#8220;military wing&#8221; to enforce Muslim law in Gaza. About 2,000 Christians live in the Gaza Strip, which has a population of over 1 million.

Abu Saqer said Hamas &#8220;must work to impose an Islamic rule or it will lose the authority it has and the will of the people.&#8221; His comments come after gunmen Sunday attacked Gaza&#8217;s Latin Church and adjacent Rosary Sisters School, reportedly destroying crosses, bibles, pictures of Jesus and furniture and equipment. The attackers also stole a number of computers. The attack was the first targeting of Christian institutions since Hamas last week staged a coup against the rival Fatah party of Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, seizing all Fatah positions and security compounds, essentially taking complete control of the Gaza Strip.


----------



## Auldhippy (May 12, 2014)

Israel oppresses Christians & muslims equally if Palestinian.


----------



## Roudy (May 12, 2014)

Auldhippy said:


> Israel oppresses Christians & muslims equally if Palestinian.


Actually Israel doesn't oppress any if its 1.8 million Muslim and Christian citizens who have the same exact rights as other citizens do.


----------



## Hossfly (May 12, 2014)

Auldhippy said:


> Israel oppresses Christians & muslims equally if Palestinian.


Where does this oppression take place, Auldchippy?


----------



## bluesman (May 13, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...




The US government denounces, attacks, and kills, Muslim terrorists.    However, the right wing extremists all will blindly embrace the actions of Israel regardless of what they do and call anyone who doesn't go along with it a Jew-hater.   Using terrorists who claim to be Muslim as the benchmark for acceptable behavior that should be endorsed by the USA is a ridiculously low standard.   It is my opinion that America is better than that.  We should denounce all race based oppression and oppression in general.  We have to cling to the idea that all are created equal regardless their skin tone or religion.


----------



## Roudy (May 13, 2014)

Terrorists who "claim" to be Muslims?  Come on Boozeman, that was pretty lame, even for someone known to be a LAMO.


----------



## P F Tinmore (May 13, 2014)

RoccoR said:


> P F Tinmore,  _et al,_
> 
> You're mixing up the rights.
> 
> ...





> You were previously talking about the Mandatory not having sovereign territorial rights, and I indicated that neither did the Arab Palestinian.



This is where you are incorrect.



> Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be* independent, trust, nonselfgoverning or under any other limitation of sovereignty. *
> 
> The Avalon Project : Universal Declaration of Human Rights



The political status of a territory is irrelevant to the rights of the people.


----------



## Kondor3 (May 13, 2014)

P F Tinmore said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Anybody got any file-footage of Egyptian Muslims giving Egyptian Coptic Christians a hard time?
> ...


It's a regional neighbor-country of like-minded people.

Palestinian Muslims suck-up to Palestinian Christians because they're all in the same boat, and it makes for good PR.

Palestinian Christians who foolishly return the favor delude themselves that such comraderie will continue if the Muslims ever got the upper hand by some miracle.

Rather like German Christians collaborating with the Nazis before they started building concentration camps.

Putting their heads in the crocodile's mouth and tempting fate.


----------



## Beelzebub (May 13, 2014)

I think it is fair to point out that all religious traditions have their share of unbalanced bigots, who treat other faiths and non-faiths as "the enemy".

It is of course quite quite insane to assume that such prejudice extends to cover all adherents to that faith.  Or non-faith.

I realise that is hard to deal with if you want to present a very simple model of the world.
Why is it that the right wing find complexity so hard?


----------



## Beelzebub (May 13, 2014)

Birds fly.
A penguin is a bird.
Penguins therefore fly.

Religious people fight.
They are religious people.
They therefore fight.

___________________

No.  It still doesn't work for me.


----------



## bluesman (May 13, 2014)

bluesman said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...






Roudy said:


> Terrorists who "claim" to be Muslims?  Come on Boozeman, that was pretty lame, even for someone known to be a LAMO.




There are all kinds of examples of crazy people using the Christian bible as an excuse to do perverted and evil things.  Just because terrorists claim to be killing in the name of a particular religion it isn't an indictment if that particular religion.  However, if your ultimate goal is to say something negative about Muslims and you are using the terrorists as an excuse to do that, then you will likely continue to do that regardless of any facts or logical reasoning.  If a person chooses to be ignorant, then as the bible says, we must let them be ignorant.


----------



## Beelzebub (May 13, 2014)

That is a very good point.

You have the same thing with the IDF / Mossad / Shin Bet / Fox News claiming to do all sorts of nasty stuff in the name of Judaism.

It don't mean Judaism is to blame.  But if they can make the uneducated believe that, they can point and cry: "Anti semite"  feeding in further excuses to "do nasty stuff in the name of Judaism."

Anyone half way aware, knows its that freakish political movement of Zionism, up to its armpits in crime.


----------



## Roudy (May 13, 2014)

bluesman said:


> bluesman said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


The terrorist ARE devout religious Muslims, practicing what they believe to be true Islam. There is no dispute about that.


----------



## Roudy (May 13, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> That is a very good point.
> 
> You have the same thing with the IDF / Mossad / Shin Bet / Fox News claiming to do all sorts of nasty stuff in the name of Judaism.
> 
> ...


What are you squealing now?  Comparing what Jews are doing in the name of their religion to what Muslims are doing?  Ha ha ha.


----------



## Kondor3 (May 13, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...


As if anyone is going to take your word for it.


----------



## westwall (May 13, 2014)

*keep it civil and pertinate to the op. *


----------



## toastman (May 13, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> That is a very good point.
> 
> You have the same thing with the IDF / Mossad / Shin Bet / Fox News claiming to do all sorts of nasty stuff in the name of Judaism.
> 
> ...



What the fuck kind if drivel is this post?? Up to its armpit in crime??

You don't even know what Zionism is.


----------



## MHunterB (May 13, 2014)

azai said:


> many Palestinian Arabs, Christian or Muslim, have Jewish blood. Meaning the original Jews were converted to Christianity and then later to Islam. Meanwhile, many converted Jews who have no Jewish blood at all , are allowed Israeli citizenship upon arrival.



And??????  Are you under the erroneous impression that Judaism is  a 'race'????


----------



## montelatici (May 13, 2014)

MHunterB said:


> azai said:
> 
> 
> > many Palestinian Arabs, Christian or Muslim, have Jewish blood. Meaning the original Jews were converted to Christianity and then later to Islam. Meanwhile, many converted Jews who have no Jewish blood at all , are allowed Israeli citizenship upon arrival.
> ...



I sure don't.


----------



## bluesman (May 14, 2014)

bluesman said:


> bluesman said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...





> Jews trying to get...  05-13-2014 06:43 PM MHunterB  .
> 
> Jews trying to get...  05-08-2014 12:58 PM MHunterB
> 
> ...




 It must suck to be a stumped troll who isn't capable of debate in the forum.


----------



## Beelzebub (May 14, 2014)

Honestly, I don't know why anyone would NOT block Roudy.
His name is his mission statement.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=r...0l5.9861j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=0&ie=UTF-8


----------



## Beelzebub (May 14, 2014)

toastman said:


> Beelzebub said:
> 
> 
> > That is a very good point.
> ...




Which bit didn't you understand Toasty?


----------



## Auldhippy (May 14, 2014)

The bits in English


----------



## Roudy (May 14, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> Honestly, I don't know why anyone would NOT block Roudy.
> His name is his mission statement.
> 
> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=r...0l5.9861j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=0&ie=UTF-8


Ha ha. And what's your mission statement, anti Semitic Nazi Pali terrorist lover?


----------



## bluesman (May 14, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Beelzebub said:
> 
> 
> > Honestly, I don't know why anyone would NOT block Roudy.
> ...



He does have a point.  You have pre-listed defined your position and it does seem accurate that you attack anyone who is not a Israel apologist.  The problem with that in a debate forum is that you have locked yourself in as a specific ideologue and the result is that you are attacking members instead of just focusing on debate. It isn't really possible to have an honest "discussion" with an ideologue.


----------



## aris2chat (May 14, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Beelzebub said:
> 
> 
> > Honestly, I don't know why anyone would NOT block Roudy.
> ...



Baal of flies
annoying pests that can bite and spread disease.  Constantly distracting, interfering.
Too bad this one does not have a 24 hour life cycle and is then gone.

The philistine invaders have disappeared.  No more worshipers.  Shoo

lavender, mint, basil, garlic, lemon grass, tea tree, citronella, cloves usually keep most of them away.


----------



## Beelzebub (May 14, 2014)

I don't think I wish Roudy had just a 24 hr lifecycle Aris.

That would be sad, as I expect he has a full and fulfilling life off the board.
But I appreciate your metaphor.

Not sure how that relates to Goliath's tribe though ...


----------



## Roudy (May 14, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> I don't think I wish Roudy had just a 24 hr lifecycle Aris.
> 
> That would be sad, as I expect he has a full and fulfilling life off the board.
> But I appreciate your metaphor.
> ...


Israel will continue to thrive and prosper, despite all the angst in your pants. 

Beelzebub is the Arab name for devil, you should have just called yourself Mohammed and gotten it over with.


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## montelatici (May 14, 2014)

Roudy said:


> Beelzebub said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think I wish Roudy had just a 24 hr lifecycle Aris.
> ...



Do you ever get anything right?

"Old Testament

The source for the name Beelzebub is in 2 Kings 1:2-3, 6, 16. Baal Z&#601;bûb is variously understood to mean "lord of the flies"[2][3][4][5] or "lord of the (heavenly) dwelling".[6]"

Beelzebub - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## aris2chat (May 14, 2014)

montelatici said:


> Roudy said:
> 
> 
> > Beelzebub said:
> ...



Ba'al, meaning "Lord" in Ugaritic, was used in conjunction with a descriptive name of a specific god. The Septuagint renders the name as Baalzebub (&#946;&#945;&#945;&#955;&#950;&#949;&#946;&#959;&#973;&#946 and as Baal muian (&#946;&#945;&#945;&#955; &#956;&#965;&#953;&#945;&#957;, "Baal of flies"), 

You might have finished the paragraph rather than seem ridiculous in calling people liars


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## montelatici (May 14, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > Roudy said:
> ...



So the source was not Arabic as the liar implied.


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## aris2chat (May 14, 2014)

montelatici said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...



You are trying to hard and appear desperate to defame others as if that will change the facts or informed opinions of other posters.

Global Arab Network | Archaeologists: Ancient Texts Show Similarities between Arabic and Ugaritic Languages | Culture | Culture


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## montelatici (May 14, 2014)

The source of the word was the Old Testament FFS, just stop lying and twisting the issue.


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## Beelzebub (May 14, 2014)

When you guys are done, just ask me.  

Actually, no.
This is rude talking ABOUT me. 

It is also entirely off topic, and not really worthy of your energy.


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## aris2chat (May 14, 2014)

montelatici said:


> The source of the word was the Old Testament FFS, just stop lying and twisting the issue.



The source of the word is from those who used it, the people who used to come from around Ras Shamra who spoke Ugaritic and wrote down their myths, 1400 B.C.E, predating the torah.


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## toastman (May 14, 2014)

Beelzebub said:


> I don't think I wish Roudy had just a 24 hr lifecycle Aris.
> 
> That would be sad, as I expect he has a full and fulfilling life off the board.
> But I appreciate your metaphor.
> ...



You've amassed 350 posts in just over a week. You're averaging over 40 posts a day. Maybe you should take a breather weezlebub


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## Beelzebub (May 14, 2014)

Sorry Toastman.

I have been exceptionally busy this week.  It should tail off soon, and I hope to do better here.


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## Kondor3 (May 14, 2014)

aris2chat said:


> montelatici said:
> 
> 
> > aris2chat said:
> ...


Standard-issue pro-Palestinian tactics... it's (_the tendency is_) included in the _Palestinian Propagandist Happy Camper's Songbook_... page 117...


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## Phoenall (May 15, 2014)

Kondor3 said:


> aris2chat said:
> 
> 
> > montelatici said:
> ...






 It is a direct copy of the neo Marxist book of deflection and derailment for beginners.


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