# What do You Gun Supporters Think of This....



## JimBowie1958 (May 19, 2013)

I carry a Glock 21, and its safety gives not much confidence, so I haven't been carrying a round chambered. Figure the likelihood of not being able to rack a round vrs having an accident with a chambered Glock is not so good.

But still the Martin-Zimmerman episode made it clear that you cannot always have the other hand free to chamber a round.

So I have decided to do this instead. I am going to carry a rubber bullet chambered. That way if the gun goes off accidentally it is unlikely it will seriously hurt anyone. But if I cant get my other hand to my gun, I can just fire twice to get lethal force.

It also gives me the option of using a less lethal shot to aid in negotiations should the need arise.

It isn't perfect, but it seems the best solution for all factors considered.

Any thoughts?


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## Ringel05 (May 19, 2013)

Nothing is perfect, if it's your time then it's your time.  Like firearms, seat belts and air bags won't always save lives but they increase the chances 100 fold.  I still carry without one in the chamber or with out one in the wheel, depending on if it's a revolver or a pistol.  If you want to protect against grab and tussle the best bet is a revolver with the hammer resting on an empty cylinder, all you have to do is cock the hammer and pull the trigger, a one handed operation.

By the way, do I look like a holster to you?


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## Skull Pilot (May 19, 2013)

With the safety on you should be fine.


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## Missourian (May 19, 2013)

That sounds like a very well thought out and responsible solution.  

It's a trade off,  but what isn't?


My 9mm is a single action.  Even with a round chambered,  it takes three actions;  disengaging the safety,  cocking the hammer and trigger pull to discharge a round.  This can be easily accomplished with only one hand,  plus,  I can choose to cock the hammer and reengage the safety to reduce the actions required to two.

My trade off is an 8+1 capacity compared to your 13+1.


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## longknife (May 19, 2013)

I believe that, like in the old Wild West [that really wasn't that wild] EVERYONE should carry a gun. Fully lethal bullet in the chamber.

As for me, my ideal is to have a 12 gauge shotgun in the closet by the front door and one in each bedroom.


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## JimBowie1958 (May 19, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> With the safety on you should be fine.



Do you know how the trigger safety on a Glock works?

It's always on, but then again....


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## whitehall (May 19, 2013)

I'm an old time wheel gun fan. No safeties and a guaranteed six rounds as fast as you can pull the trigger.


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## westwall (May 19, 2013)

JimBowie1958 said:


> I carry a Glock 21, and its safety gives not much confidence, so I haven't been carrying a round chambered. Figure the likelihood of not being able to rack a round vrs having an accident with a chambered Glock is not so good.
> 
> But still the Martin-Zimmerman episode made it clear that you cannot always have the other hand free to chamber a round.
> 
> ...









A Glock has an integral trigger safety.  So long as you keep your finger off of the trigger it CAN'T go off.  A rubber bullet is just as lethal at short range as a regular projectile so I don't think you're any safer.  

My suggestion is take some tactical pistol classes and LEARN how to use your pistol properly.


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## JimBowie1958 (May 20, 2013)

westwall said:


> JimBowie1958 said:
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> > I carry a Glock 21, and its safety gives not much confidence, so I haven't been carrying a round chambered. Figure the likelihood of not being able to rack a round vrs having an accident with a chambered Glock is not so good.
> ...



Done that 4 times (not counting the Army) and all were while I used a wheel gun. Picked up on Glocks about three years ago, and really like them. 

I keep mine on me or near me 24/7 and you don't have to have yor finger on the trigger for something to hit it and set it off. A guy here in VA got killed simply slipping his autopistol in  his pants and something in the pocket set the gun off and severed one of his arteries.

A subsonic rubber bullet is *less* likely to kill, but any bullet can kill someone if it hits the right spot at close range.


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## westwall (May 20, 2013)

JimBowie1958 said:


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It is physically impossible for a Glock to go off without having its trigger pulled.  Period.  I don't count Army training as it is very rudimentary for the most part.  Especially as regards handguns.  The other classes you took I would question their efficacy if you are still having issues.  

I would suggest a class at Thunder Ranch or Gunsite.

Thunder Ranch® Oregon & Thunder Ranch® Texas

http://www.gunsite.com/main/

IMO they are the two best in the nation.  After you have completed one of their classes you are competent...period..or you shouldn't be carrying firearms at all.


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## JimBowie1958 (May 20, 2013)

westwall said:


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That is simply not true, it was a Glock that went off and killed the guy I was referring to. 

http://www.timesdispatch.com/archive/article_efb45677-4693-5696-a8b7-3cc6faa719f4.html

I know the specifics on this case because I know one of the mans relatives, and the press story got it wrong. Paint me not surprised.

What do you think happens if something in ones pocket is pushed against the safety on the trigger? You think it is impossible for some inanimate object in the packet to enable someone do such a thing?  

The word 'impossible' means something that CANNOT happen  under any circumstances.

This HAS happened, so it aint impossible.



westwall said:


> I don't count Army training as it is very rudimentary for the most part.  Especially as regards handguns.  The other classes you took I would question their efficacy if you are still having issues.
> 
> I would suggest a class at Thunder Ranch or Gunsite.
> 
> ...



Thank you for your opinings, Westwall.


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## mudwhistle (May 20, 2013)

JimBowie1958 said:


> I carry a Glock 21, and its safety gives not much confidence, so I haven't been carrying a round chambered. Figure the likelihood of not being able to rack a round vrs having an accident with a chambered Glock is not so good.
> 
> But still the Martin-Zimmerman episode made it clear that you cannot always have the other hand free to chamber a round.
> 
> ...



If you're walking around with a round chambered you're an idiot. You don't need a rubber bullet. Where the fuck do you live? Chicago? Afghanistan?


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## JimBowie1958 (May 20, 2013)

mudwhistle said:


> JimBowie1958 said:
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> > I carry a Glock 21, and its safety gives not much confidence, so I haven't been carrying a round chambered. Figure the likelihood of not being able to rack a round vrs having an accident with a chambered Glock is not so good.
> ...



Lol, and plenty of people say the exact opposite, that if you carry a gun without a bullet chambered you are an idiot carrying a paper weight.

Sorry to disturb you with the notion that people might think differently from you.




mudwhistle said:


> Where the fuck do you live? Chicago? Afghanistan?



Lol, Chicago = Afghanistan, lololol.

No, I live in neither. 

I simply live among the most cunning, aggressive and dangerous creatures on Earth; Southerners! I'll keep my fracking gun loaded and on me at all times, thank you!


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## jon_berzerk (May 20, 2013)

JimBowie1958 said:


> I carry a Glock 21, and its safety gives not much confidence, so I haven't been carrying a round chambered. Figure the likelihood of not being able to rack a round vrs having an accident with a chambered Glock is not so good.
> 
> But still the Martin-Zimmerman episode made it clear that you cannot always have the other hand free to chamber a round.
> 
> ...



if the firearm is working properly 

you should not have a problem 

maybe take a class on the basics


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## mudwhistle (May 20, 2013)

JimBowie1958 said:


> Skull Pilot said:
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Yes, it's always on safe till you put your finger inside the trigger guard and start to squeexze. Then it's off, so don't do that unless you plan to shoot something.


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## jon_berzerk (May 20, 2013)

JimBowie1958 said:


> mudwhistle said:
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best practice is to  always treat a firearm as if was loaded 

and ready to go off


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## mudwhistle (May 20, 2013)

JimBowie1958 said:


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Loaded and having a round chambered are two different things. It only takes 1.5 seconds to pull a Glock and pull back the slide. 

Southerners for the nost part are pretty decent. New Yorkers, not so much. I would carry a gun if it was legal if I lived in NYC, but if you live in the South you sound paranoid. Nobody's gonna bother you unless you're looking for trouble.


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## mudwhistle (May 20, 2013)

jon_berzerk said:


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Somebody hands you a gun assume it's loaded. Always check it first. 

A Glock has two safeties. On the trigger and keeping your finger off of it. But not chambering a round is a good practice. Then you'll know for sure every time.


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## AquaAthena (May 20, 2013)

whitehall said:


> I'm an old time wheel gun fan. No safeties and a guaranteed six rounds as fast as you can pull the trigger.



I'm in favor of open carry. I don't know what the negatives would be, but I felt very safe on my horse with one strapped around my waist, in a holster, in secluded areas where I road, often.


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## mudwhistle (May 20, 2013)

AquaAthena said:


> whitehall said:
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I'm in favor of carrying an RPG in the open too. However, some people freak when you point a stick and go bang, bang now.


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## longknife (May 20, 2013)

AquaAthena said:


> whitehall said:
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> > I'm an old time wheel gun fan. No safeties and a guaranteed six rounds as fast as you can pull the trigger.
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When I first moved to Vegas more than 30 years ago, there were a couple of guys who walked around town wearing a gun belt with very large revolvers.

Nobody ever messed with them!


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## Ringel05 (May 20, 2013)

whitehall said:


> I'm an old time wheel gun fan. No safeties and a guaranteed six rounds as fast as you can pull the trigger.



Yup, not much that can go wrong with a wheel gun.


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## JimBowie1958 (May 20, 2013)

mudwhistle said:


> Loaded and having a round chambered are two different things. It only takes 1.5 seconds to pull a Glock and pull back the slide.



You cant always do that, dude. Suppose you are in a situation like Zimmerman was in and you are on your back and have some perp sitting on your chest pounding you; you think you would be able to rack a round into the chamber?  Yeah, good luck with that one.



mudwhistle said:


> Southerners for the nost part are pretty decent. New Yorkers, not so much. I would carry a gun if it was legal if I lived in NYC, but if you live in the South you sound paranoid. Nobody's gonna bother you unless you're looking for trouble.



Yes, 98% of all ethnicities are fairly good folks. But its that 2% I carry a loaded gun for, and the South has their 'two percenters' just like everybody else.


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## JimBowie1958 (May 20, 2013)

Ringel05 said:


> whitehall said:
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Running out of bullets might be considered to fall into the category of 'going wrong'.


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## JimBowie1958 (May 20, 2013)

mudwhistle said:


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Why not let people carry RPGs?

ITs not like they'll rob a store or mug anyone with one since you can see them for miles if slung over the shoulder.


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## Two Thumbs (May 20, 2013)

JimBowie1958 said:


> I carry a Glock 21, and its safety gives not much confidence, so I haven't been carrying a round chambered. Figure the likelihood of not being able to rack a round vrs having an accident with a chambered Glock is not so good.
> 
> But still the Martin-Zimmerman episode made it clear that you cannot always have the other hand free to chamber a round.
> 
> ...



whatever makes you feel safer around people.

I'd advise adjusting when you are around people you don't know

and have a knife


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## jon_berzerk (May 20, 2013)

AquaAthena said:


> whitehall said:
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we have open carry out here 

i used to open carry


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## JimBowie1958 (May 20, 2013)

jon_berzerk said:


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We have open carry here in Virginia, and I did for a while, about a year.

My wife asked me to stop and return to concealed carry so I did. She felt that by open carrying I was giving up a tactical advantage.

Man, I love that woman.


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## whitehall (May 22, 2013)

Where the hell do you get rubber bullets?


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## JimBowie1958 (May 22, 2013)

whitehall said:


> Where the hell do you get rubber bullets?



Meister Bullets  Full line of hard cast lead cowboy and ISPC/IDPA bullets, new brass, cartridges, black powder SPG lead bullets, reloading supplies, hard swaged lead bullets, shooting supplies, T-shirts, hats and patches


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## jon_berzerk (May 23, 2013)

JimBowie1958 said:


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that it is


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## jon_berzerk (May 23, 2013)

mudwhistle said:


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the old motto still applies treat all firearms as if they are loaded


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## C_Clayton_Jones (May 23, 2013)

JimBowie1958 said:


> westwall said:
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True. 

Id say if youre not comfortable with your Glock find something else.


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## earlycuyler (May 23, 2013)

JimBowie1958 said:


> I carry a Glock 21, and its safety gives not much confidence, so I haven't been carrying a round chambered. Figure the likelihood of not being able to rack a round vrs having an accident with a chambered Glock is not so good.
> 
> But still the Martin-Zimmerman episode made it clear that you cannot always have the other hand free to chamber a round.
> 
> ...



First is I do believe Glocks come standard with the New York trigger so dont try to holster it like John Wane and you are good. Second, Glocks have internal safeties and are rated among some of the safest, most idiot proof fire arms around. Rubber bullets are a dumb idea. The fact that you mention negotiations is proof you have not attended a CCW class. In CCW we are taught that when gun comes out its "Front sight acquire, fire". We keep firing until the threat has hit the ground and is no longer a threat, preferably dead. Rubber bullet= stupid, Gold dot= gooda !


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## whitehall (May 23, 2013)

Get a revolver. They make some titanium models that are lightweight, strong and hold five rounds. No safety and no worries about that rubber bullet. Think you need more than five rounds? Get a speed loader and learn to use it.


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## JimBowie1958 (May 23, 2013)

earlycuyler said:


> JimBowie1958 said:
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> > I carry a Glock 21, and its safety gives not much confidence, so I haven't been carrying a round chambered. Figure the likelihood of not being able to rack a round vrs having an accident with a chambered Glock is not so good.
> ...



Lol, in theory what you say is true. But also don't want to get sued by the survivors of the perp for excessive force.

I will have my gun out ASAP if I have reasonable suspicion that things are getting ugly. If someone needs persuading I risk less at the scene and in civil court.

If you say lawsuits are irrelevant, then I suspect you aren't thinking this through. Don't wait till you have to shoot to pull and acquire a target. Do it as soon as you think you will soon need to.


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## earlycuyler (May 26, 2013)

JimBowie1958 said:


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Yeah, getting taken to court came up. A whole part of our class was dedicated to it. Its pretty heavy stuff. Tons of responsibility.


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## Wildman (Jun 3, 2013)

whitehall said:


> *I'm an old time wheel gun fan.* No safeties and a guaranteed six rounds as fast as you can pull the trigger.



DITTO !! i love my 4 inch Colt Python, the finest DA revolver ever made !!


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## Wildman (Jun 3, 2013)

*



			Any thoughts?
		
Click to expand...

*
YES !! trade it off for a SIG, one of the best (IN MY OPINION) DA semi-auto pistol ever made.


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## longknife (Jun 3, 2013)

I think I'll stick with one of these ---


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## Jarlaxle (Jun 3, 2013)

whitehall said:


> Get a revolver. They make some titanium models that are lightweight, strong and hold five rounds. No safety and no worries about that rubber bullet. Think you need more than five rounds? Get a speed loader and learn to use it.



IIRC, the S&W Model 29 Titanium is 18oz, holds six rounds of .44 Magnum.


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## Jarlaxle (Jun 3, 2013)

Wildman said:


> whitehall said:
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No.


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## Wildman (Jun 3, 2013)

Jarlaxle said:


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a fine piece of American metallurgy, BUT !! this is the best and finest of modern American handguns................., 






i love shooting this hand cannon too !!


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## Politico (Jun 4, 2013)

What on Earth makes you think a rubber bullet won't seriously injure someone?


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## Ringel05 (Jun 4, 2013)

Politico said:


> What on Earth makes you think a rubber bullet won't seriously injure someone?



I can do much more damage with a club or a knife but what they're talking about is a non-firing practice "dummy".


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## Steven_R (Jul 17, 2013)

mudwhistle said:


> It only takes 1.5 seconds to pull a Glock and pull back the slide.



Most attacks start at less than 21 feet. Here's a fun exercise. Get one of those cheap plastic BB pistols they have at Walmart and put it in your everyday holster like you normally carry. Have a friend stand 21 feet from you with a Sharpie in his hand and then attack you. When he attacks you, pull your pistol, wait 1.5 seconds and they "shoot" him. Count the number of times he was able to mark you with the Sharpie. Each one is a knife wound.

Now try it again but without waiting the 1.5 seconds before shooting. Count those marks. 

Compare results.


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## Missourian (Jul 18, 2013)

Steven_R said:


> mudwhistle said:
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Did you see "bringing a knife to a gunfight" on Mythbusters?

[youtube]ckz7EmDxhtU[/youtube]​


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## Steven_R (Jul 18, 2013)

No, we tried it when I did my CCL classes.

Nevermind just how many things Mythbusters gets wrong.


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## JimBowie1958 (Jul 18, 2013)

Steven_R said:


> No, we tried it when I did my CCL classes.
> 
> Nevermind just how many things Mythbusters gets wrong.



I know of at least three things they have gotten wrong: a. an arrow cannot be shot that will split another arrow down the shaft, b. that a bullet fired up into the air cannot come down and injure anyone significantly, and c. that a collection of mirrors trained onto the exact same spot will set wood on fire.

These guys are running a show and do not bother themselves to research how the supposed myths were actually done. They did not research how arrows were made in the middle ages, or consider how many people might be in an area where someone shoots up into the air and how the bullet airflow can often cause the bullet to come down tip first, etc.
They are in the entertainment business, not serious research business.


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## JimBowie1958 (Jul 18, 2013)

Missourian said:


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If you think someone might make a rush at you there is no reason to not take your gun out of the holster prior to the rush. Jamie couldn't outrun a finger twitch at 10'

But this is why any cop department policy that forces a cop to keep his gun sheathed against his better judgment in a particular situation is suicidal whether the bad guys are obviously armed or not since a lock-back knife is very concealable and just as lethal.


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## Ringel05 (Jul 18, 2013)

Steven_R said:


> mudwhistle said:
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Actually the safe zone is 17 feet as we were taught at the academy.  Under that range an attacker with a knife will get you before you can get your sidearm out of the holster and fire.  Even at 21 feet it's possible but unlikely if the person defending themselves is well trained and constantly practices the draw and fire. 
The main thing to remember with firearm self defense (as well as any other self defense) is whatever you practice you will do in and emergency, it's called muscle memory.  As an example, if you fire off a full mag then remove the empty mag and put it in your pocket before inserting a new mag that's what you'll do when/if the time comes to react, losing possible precious seconds that could get you killed.  Let the empty drop, you can always go back and pick it up.


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## Skull Pilot (Jul 18, 2013)

whitehall said:


> I'm an old time wheel gun fan. No safeties and a guaranteed six rounds as fast as you can pull the trigger.



I have a S&W 340PD

Only 5 rounds but it is a nice concealed carry weapon 357 or .38+p


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## MikeK (Oct 19, 2013)

JimBowie1958 said:


> I carry a Glock 21, and its safety gives not much confidence, so I haven't been carrying a round chambered. Figure the likelihood of not being able to rack a round vrs having an accident with a chambered Glock is not so good.
> 
> But still the Martin-Zimmerman episode made it clear that you cannot always have the other hand free to chamber a round.
> 
> ...


A rubber bullet can do a lot more damage than one might think.  In fact they can kill.

Chamber a blank.  The odds are good that discharging the blank at an aggressor will scare the hell out of him and send him running.  But if it doesn't, your next shot will take care of business.


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## jon_berzerk (Oct 19, 2013)

JimBowie1958 said:


> Steven_R said:
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*a. an arrow cannot be shot that will split another arrow down the shaft,*

on more then one occasion between by brothers  my kids and myself

have driven one aluminum arrow into the shaft of another aluminum arrow


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## MikeK (Oct 19, 2013)

jon_berzerk said:


> have driven one aluminum arrow into the shaft of another aluminum arrow


As you may know, that is called a _"Robin Hood"_ because it supposedly mimics the famous shot made by the legendary figure.  It is not uncommon but is always accidental (I've never seen it done intentionally).  It's also wasteful and costly because good aluminum (or carbon) arrows cost between $5 and $10.  

The way to avoid it is to use Easton Uni-bushings, which are beveled and will deflect a direct hit that would otherwise destroy an arrow.


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## Wildman (Oct 20, 2013)

i know nothing about "G-Blocks".., so if it were mine i would trade it off as fast as possible for a SIG P226 or my second choice would be an EAA Baby Eagle.


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## jon_berzerk (Oct 20, 2013)

MikeK said:


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can be well over 10 dollars 

i remember when deer hunting with a bow 

was on the cheap 

--LOL

years ago we would intentionally try and hit each others arrows 

it was harder then 

you had to call it out 

if you missed it cost 5 bucks 

when i was a kid back in the late 60s 

i tried and tried and tried to split my cedar arrows 

with my recurve never was able to do it 

did break some though


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## Jarlaxle (Oct 20, 2013)

JimBowie1958 said:


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Their biggest mistake with the falling bullet was because neither of them are ballisticians.  A rifle bullet will not tumble...because they can leave the muzzle spinning 1,000,000RPM. (2500fps from a 12" twist barrel is 900,000RPM.) The gyro effect means they will come down base or nose first.


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## jon_berzerk (Oct 21, 2013)

Jarlaxle said:


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depending on the bullet probably would fall on its tail heavy end first 

a wad cutter maybe would fall on its side which slow it down even more 


and that is only if they are shot straight up 

and came straight down

if the bullet at its highest point retained energy to continue to spin on the fall

it obviously would fall head or tail first


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## JimBowie1958 (Oct 21, 2013)

jon_berzerk said:


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Prior to modern methods of turning wood to make arrow shafts, which leaves the grain running across the shaft, the older method of making an arrow simply took a suitably thick dried nearly straight limb/sprout/reed and steamed it to straighten it.

Thus the grain ran the length of the arrow, and could easily hold a well placed shot down the shaft, while the cross grain of turned arrows would shift it off the shaft.

As to whether a person could hit it deliberately, well, some people are just talented as hell like this guy who can shoot an asprin tossed into the air.


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## Noomi (Oct 21, 2013)

JimBowie1958 said:


> I carry a Glock 21, and its safety gives not much confidence, so I haven't been carrying a round chambered. Figure the likelihood of not being able to rack a round vrs having an accident with a chambered Glock is not so good.
> 
> But still the Martin-Zimmerman episode made it clear that you cannot always have the other hand free to chamber a round.
> 
> ...



Rubber bullets are better than real ones.


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## JimBowie1958 (Oct 21, 2013)

Noomi said:


> JimBowie1958 said:
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Yeah, how many libtard gun grabbing fascists have slammed on guns and or gun owners then one day it comes about someone tries to break into their home and SHAZAM! The fucktard had been keeping a gun THE WHOLE TIME and shoots the perp.

I would not be surprised if you own a gun and keep hollow points in it chamered 24/7.


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## westwall (Oct 21, 2013)

jon_berzerk said:


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\






Julian Hatcher ran many tests on firing bullets straight up.  They always came down base first and the closest they came to original point of firing was 60 feet IIRC.


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## JimBowie1958 (Oct 21, 2013)

westwall said:


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At large holiday celebrations and in dense municipal downtown areas, it is very feasible for someone near-by to get hit by a returning bullet.


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## jon_berzerk (Oct 22, 2013)

westwall said:


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thanks for that 

i could see it falling on its side 

only if the weight of the bullet was uniform from front to back 


but i suppose if there was not an outside influence 

there would be no reason for the bullet to lay on its side 

coming down


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## jon_berzerk (Oct 22, 2013)

JimBowie1958 said:


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i would say one of the bigger dangers is to not have the firearm straight up 

cause the bullet to arc over some distance and return to earth 

with gravity + the projectile remaining energy from being fired 

i say this from being on the receiving end of a careless shooter 

several years ago 

luckily no one got hurt


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## westwall (Oct 22, 2013)

JimBowie1958 said:


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> > jon_berzerk said:
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Nimrods who do that never point straight up.  They are always on a parabolic trajectory and yes, people CAN die from bullets fired that way.  The only documented case I know of where someone actually fired straight up was a nimrod who shot his .44 magnum and the bullet came down two blocks away and hit an old lady in the wrist.  It was bruised but did not break any bones.


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## westwall (Oct 22, 2013)

jon_berzerk said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> > jon_berzerk said:
> ...






The bullet has great stability because it is rotating at around 200,000 rpm.  Once it runs out of velocity and can no longer climb it must conform to gravitational effect.  It however is _still_ rotating at nearly 200,000 rpm.


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## GHook93 (Oct 22, 2013)

JimBowie1958 said:


> I carry a Glock 21, and its safety gives not much confidence, so I haven't been carrying a round chambered. Figure the likelihood of not being able to rack a round vrs having an accident with a chambered Glock is not so good.
> 
> But still the Martin-Zimmerman episode made it clear that you cannot always have the other hand free to chamber a round.
> 
> ...



I think that is a pretty damn good idea! Never looked into rubber bullets. However, that would be a great alternative. With conceal carry coming to IL (eventually), I am thinking about it. I want to get an ankle gun. Keep it loaded with rubber bullets to seriously hurt anyone who is trying to hurt you and keep a live clip if needed!


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## WinterBorn (Oct 22, 2013)

GHook93 said:


> JimBowie1958 said:
> 
> 
> > I carry a Glock 21, and its safety gives not much confidence, so I haven't been carrying a round chambered. Figure the likelihood of not being able to rack a round vrs having an accident with a chambered Glock is not so good.
> ...



Bear in mind that, as someone has already pointed out, rubber bullets can be deadly at close ranges.


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## GHook93 (Oct 22, 2013)

This is why I love my springfield  9mm (other thant he 19+1). The safety is on the handle, so it goes on and off when you grip the gun!


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## JimBowie1958 (Oct 23, 2013)

WinterBorn said:


> GHook93 said:
> 
> 
> > JimBowie1958 said:
> ...



While I agree, I must also point out that ANY hard object is deadly at close ranges if the person knows how to use it; anything from a pencil to a large dictionary.  There are frailties to the 'engineering' of the human body that can be exploited if you want to cause great harm.


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