# Cowardly Turks cutting and running



## DeadCanDance (Mar 2, 2008)

Shameful.  Kurdish PKK terrorists still roam freely in iraqi kurdistan.  And the turks are cutting and running, instead of occupying iraqi kurdistan to deny PKK a sanctuary.  

I don't understand this concept of limited, surgical strikes.   It makes more sense for the turks to occupy iraqi kurdistan, at unlimited cost in turkish blood and treasure, to make sure they're fighting the terrorists "over there" instead of having the terrorists follow them home.   




> *After 8 Days, Turkey Pulls Its Troops Out of Iraq*
> 
> By SABRINA TAVERNISE and RICHARD A. OPPEL Jr.
> Published: March 1, 2008
> ...


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## Gunny (Mar 2, 2008)

DeadCanDance said:


> Shameful.  Kurdish PKK terrorists still roam freely in iraqi kurdistan.  And the turks are cutting and running, instead of occupying iraqi kurdistan to deny PKK a sanctuary.
> 
> I don't understand this concept of limited, surgical strikes.   It makes more sense for the turks to occupy iraqi kurdistan, at unlimited cost in turkish blood and treasure, to make sure they're fighting the terrorists "over there" instead of having the terrorists follow them home.




Turkey invading and occupying the northern part of Iraq until it cleared out the PKK is the most tactically and strategically sound solution.  So from a purely military standpoint, they are doing the wrong thing.

Glad you agree.


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## cbi0090 (Mar 7, 2008)

GunnyL said:


> Turkey invading and occupying the northern part of Iraq until it cleared out the PKK is the most tactically and strategically sound solution.  So from a purely military standpoint, they are doing the wrong thing.
> 
> Glad you agree.



The general Kurdish population is not as happy with the Kursh terrorists as one might think.  They have had relative peace for a long time now and someone within their own ranks trying to start a war with a powerful country like Turkey is not going to be welcome for long.  The Kurds are far more likely to go beyond the usual Islamic mantra's and come down on their own trouble makers.  The Turks know this so a few surgical strikes just to demonstrate that they are perfectly capable of coming in and cleaning house, if pushed, might be all that's needed.  Of course, if the Kurds turn out to be so stupid as to go the path of most of their Islamic brethren they still have that option.


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## ekrem (Mar 8, 2008)

DeadCanDance said:


> Shameful.  Kurdish PKK terrorists still roam freely in iraqi kurdistan.  And the turks are cutting and running, instead of occupying iraqi kurdistan to deny PKK a sanctuary.
> 
> I don't understand this concept of limited, surgical strikes.   It makes more sense for the turks to occupy iraqi kurdistan, at unlimited cost in turkish blood and treasure, to make sure they're fighting the terrorists "over there" instead of having the terrorists follow them home.



Hello. 
"Cutting and running" implies, as if Turkish Army was pushed back and "ran" away. 
That is not the case, but this operation was also not the big operation expected. 
This operation was an operation to eliminate a concentration of around 300 terrorists in the Zap Valley in North-Iraq.


> Buyukanit said the military had achieved its goals in the campaign, killing at least 240 of around 300 guerrillas they had targeted in the Zap valley.


http://www.reuters.com/article/featuredCrisis/idUSL03492495

The Army did not give aims before the operation. So Army achieved its aims and redeployed. 
Also in the operation there was not used mechanized units, only Soldiers walking.
Army says, that at day temperature varied between 0 and 5 degree Celsius. In Night tempreature was 0 to -15 degree Celsius. Snow varied between 45 cm to 1,5 meters.
You can look at the pictures here to see the terrain. 
http://www.tsk.mil.tr/10_ARSIV/10_4_Diger_Haberler/2008/sinir_harekati_2008/02_mart_2008.htm
These photos are the last photos related to the operation which were realeased on the General Staff Homepage.

The  last photo on that link shows a soldier with an artillery shell on which is written: "Daha bitmedi, devami gelecek". 
This means "It is not over, it will come more".

To whom this message was directed is questionable, but i think it was for Turkish public. Turkish public expected a final blow to PKK includeing all its bases. That did not happen, as Turkish Army did march in maximum 25 KM into Iraqi soil. 
But we have still the whole spring, summer and autumn before us. All where snow is not there.

The last operation must be interpreted as  ensureing that PKK terrorists have no ability to cross the boarder when snow smelts. All the infrastructure of PKK near to the boarder has been destroyed. 
According to General Staff, 789 targets have been destroyed with the operation. 
Under those targets were 
- 316 hideouts and caves
- 11 communication facilities
- 23 food depots
- 40 weapon depots
- 59 Anti-Air batteries



> "We targeted Zap because it is where the armed attacks of the PKK against Turkey are masterminded," Buyukanit said.


http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hHDG79AIius7McB6xz3lTQFLIdhQD8V63IFO1

Losses of terrorist actions within Turkey, as it was seen in 2007, there will not be again this year when snow starts to smelt. 
Upon this logic expactation and paralell with the fact, that this "war" is now being brought to them, there is still some sort of disappointment as last operation was kept limited and did not bring the "final" blow to whole PKK structure in Iraq. But we can not expect that Turkish Army eliminates PKK in 8 days and under these winter conditions and mountaineous area. 

Also as USA and Turkey coordinate activities it can also be said, that Turkey is not going to occupy whole North-Iraq, a possibility which would have come true if relations between USA and Turkey would have collpased. This danger has been  overcome, and Turkey will keep military activities fixed on PKK and not KRG. 
In the last operation there was neither a *civilist* injured nor killed. 

Turkey has currently 4 Army bases in North-Iraq. As Stratfor says, Turkey is planning to add another 11 Army bases in North-Iraq.
Turkey: Temporary Bases Planned In Northern Iraq
http://www.stratfor.com/sitrep/turkey_temporary_bases_planned 

So if we do not make the error in thinking that military activities are over, everything advances quite in favor of Turkey. 
So we have to wait. The psychological advantage is now on Turkey's side. Terrorist structures in Iraq sending terrorists into Turkey and swinging confident their balls against Turkey is definately over. We can come again every hour by air or by ground.

Local Kurdish leaders like Barzani woke also up in reality thinking of them as an overregional factor and now being shown that his claimed sovereignity over an small area on world map is being penetrated and he can nothing do but "play for the rostrum".


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## DeadCanDance (Mar 8, 2008)

calm down canavar, the post was in jest.

I find it far more prudent in general, to engage in limited, surgical strikes against terrorist bases, than stupidly invading and occupying a (largely) hostile country.

I'm not against all wars.  I'm against stupid wars.   As a noted politician has said.


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## ekrem (Mar 11, 2008)

Rather then flooding the forum with different Türkiye topics, i will post here something which is quite interesting but has nothing to do with terrorism. 

Turkey has in part of EU negotiation process switched its GDP calculation to EU Standard, also called ESA-95. 

*European System of Accounts*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_System_of_Accounts

With this switch there was a total restructure of the System of Statistics gathered by Turkish Statistical Institute (TUIK). All in compliance with Turkish EU accession process and with practical Assistance by German Authorities. 



> Turkey has changed its method of calculating its gross domestic product, switching to the system used in the Europen Union which it is hoping to join, the country's statistics office said Saturday.
> 
> The change to the European System of Accounts (ESA95) has resulted in a steep "rise" in Turkey's GDP as well as the income per head of population, Anatolia news agency quoted the institute's head, Omer Demir, as saying.
> 
> *For 2006, for example, the increase was 31.6 percent, from 576 billion to 758 billion Turkish pounds (526 billion dollars).*


http://www.france24.com/en/20080308-turkey-sees-gdp-rise-after-switch-accounting-system


The growth of Turkey in 2007 was still not realeased. There are only datas for the three first quartals of 2007 available.






The above graphic shows with blue colour the old Nominal GDP and with pink the new GDP according to ESA-95 standard. 
As the graphic was taken from Turkish edition of "the Economist", currency is Turkish YTL.

1 Turkish YTL = 0,8110 $
http://de.finance.yahoo.com/waehrungsrechner/convert?amt=1&from=TRY&to=USD&submit=Umrechnen

So new Turkish Nominal GDP in 3rd Quarter of 2007 = 771 Billion $.
Old GDP in 3rd quarter of 2007 = 495 Billion $.


The following graphic shows Growth rates of Turkish nominal GDP in last years to new and old statistics





So as you see, Turkey is growing the last years annualy with 5 to 10%.
If we now can also curb "unregistered economy" we would be busy with breaking the 2 trillion $ nominal GDP barriage, rather then the 1 Trillion $ nominal GDP barriage. 



> The World Bank estimates Turkeys unregistered economy to be in the
> range of 40-50 percent of GNP.


http://www.bis.doc.gov/defenseindustrialbaseprograms/osies/exportmarketguides/european/turkey.pdf


Off course these datas are nothing against USA datas, but that is not the motive to compare Turkey to USA.


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## Taomon (Mar 11, 2008)

GunnyL said:


> Turkey invading and occupying the northern part of Iraq until it cleared out the PKK is the most tactically and strategically sound solution.  So from a purely military standpoint, they are doing the wrong thing.
> 
> Glad you agree.


Invading and occupying...this will escalate violence. Not exactly a sound solution. Killing all of your enemies creates more.


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## ekrem (Mar 12, 2008)

Turkish Prime Minister to New York Times:



> Turkey is not a guest, said Mr. Erdogan, 54, sitting in a cream-colored high-backed chair in his official residence in Ankara, Turkeys capital. *Everyone* who has entered *Iraq* until now will stay for a while and *go away, but we will stay.*


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/12/world/europe/12turkey.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Is clear enough i think.

Turkey's South-East is in relation to other areas poor. The salary niveau is 1/3 of for example Western Niveau. No exports, no industry.
It is this region which does pull down statistics of Turkey in whole. 
Those Provinces can even not finance their duties to citizens, so they have to be financed by richer provinces in the west.

Köydes and Beldes projects are currently ongoing, aiming at bringing infrastructure to level of other Turkish provinces.
Now Turkey will inject another 12 Billion $ in the region.


Also interesting, but different Topic:
Turkish Army Fund Plans to Invest Outside Nation for First Time 

Army Pension Fund (OYAK) is capitalistic company, but has certain advantages in tax paing. Army officers pay 10% of their monthly earnings in, when they retire they want maximum return. Turkey has huge army, 2nd largest in NATO.

OYAK owns 
- biggest Steel producer
- biggest cement producer
- Co-owns Renault fabrics in Turkey
- Co-owns 2nd largest insurance company
- produces electricity with 1.320 MW plant
and much more.

It has become one of biggest companies in Turkey. 
OYAK now wants to invest 3 Billion $ abroad.
Besides OYAK is investing 4,2 Billion $ into Steel maker of Turkey to raise production.
Good times ahead for military-economic "complex".


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## ekrem (Mar 13, 2008)

indigenious *T-129 Attack Helicopter*
Currently developing. Based on Italian Mangusta A-129 Attack Helicopter. Turkey has full marketing rights of T-129. Italian Mangusta and Turkish Aselsan are sub-contractor, Turkish TAI is Main Contractor.
Helicopter will be totally reworked.

Will get many Turkish developed components:

- 12 developed UMTAS anti-tank missiles (similar to Hellfire II)
- Mast radar, similar to that of Apache Longbow
- 4 Laser guided missiles
- new targeting pod
- stronger engine










indigenious *T-155 'Firtina' (Storm)*
Currently in production. Indigenously designed and uses some subsystems as same with K9 "Panther" from South Korea which started production on 1999. Inflow to Turkish Army since 2001.






indigenious *M&#304;TÜP Turkish National Tank Project*
This will be Turkey's first MBT development program since 1943, when prototypes of a Turkish national tank were produced in the city of K&#305;r&#305;kkale, but never reached full-scale mass production.
Koc company, Turkey's biggest industrial conglomerate is Main Contractor.
Sub Contractor is Agency for Defense Development (ADD) of South Korea, which will mass-product K2 Black Panther for South Korea in 2011.
K2 Black Panther is regarded as one of the best tanks once it gets into production.
Turkey also got Merkava IV add-on armour technology and 120 mm gun from Israel during Sabra upgrade.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_(tank)
Turkish Tank will be a mix of Israelian-SouthKorean-Turkish technology.

Contract signed with Turkish Main contractor on 30th March 2007.

indigenious *
Cirit - Laser guided rocket*
2,75" Laser-Guided Rocket - CIRIT

In 2004 Roketsan started the development of a 2,75" (70mm) semi active laser guided rocket called CIRIT. The Cirit guidance rocket uses the traditional layout structure: The close neighbor detection unit (is located in the ball forehead). The control section part is loaded with two pair of stable control surfaces; then is the internal installation power unit guidance section; the guidance section is located after the warhead, unified three kind of effects, the anti-armor, the counter- personnel and burns, used to destroy non- armor or half flinty goals. Through the bearing, the warhead section is connected which is located after the low smoke rocket engine. Two pair of stable control surfaces are located at the front of the rocket engine spray nozzle. 
http://jmr.janes.com/public/jmr/index.shtml









indigenious*
UMTAS - Long Range Anti-Tank Missile*
UMTAS project started towards the end of 2005.
Roketsan is the leading developer and is in cooperation with Aselsan and MKEK.
The first phase (concept design) has been completed. Now they're working on the integration of the propulsion, navigation and warhead components.
The missile will have an IIR (Imaging Infra-Red) seeker made by Aselsan.
It will have LoBL/LoAL (Lock on Before Launch/Lock on After Launch) capability.
Main warhead will be HEAT (High Explosive Anti-Tank) but other types of warheads for different missions will also be developed.




*
OMTAS - Mid Range Anti-Tank Missile*
Development paralell to UMTAS. Both missiles will be fireable by Manpads and new Turkish Attack Helicopter. Laser guided missile CIRIT will also be fireable by Attack Helicopter.

indigenious *
Atilgan - Missile fireing platform*
Inflow into Turkish Army since 2003









indigenious *T-122 Artillery Missile Platform
*
Inflow into Turkish Army since 1998.
- Completes the firing mission of 40 rockets in 80 seconds
- Delivers 740 kg of warhead in a ripple firing




*
T-300*
The 300mm unguided rockets use a composite solid propellant (HTPB) and are fitted with a warhead developed by Roketsan. This warhead *contains 26,000 steel balls.*
The rocket is fitted with a nose-mounted proximity fuze with a lethal range of 70m (although fragments go out well beyond this range). The rockets have a minimum range of *40km* and a maximum range of *80km* (with drag rings) and *100km* (without). Their overall length is 4.75m and they have four fixed fins at the rear with a quoted launch weight of 530kg, of which 150kg is the warhead.

The MBRL is a weapon system suitable for all weather conditions during day and night, and capable of firing four rockets in ripple.






indigenious *
MILGEM - Stealth Corvette*
First Corvette of total production cue will be put to sea on 27 September 2008 and then tested until completion in 25 October 2010.
The design concept and mission profile of Milgem bears similarities with the Littoral Combat Ship (LCS-1) developed by Lockheed Martin as the first member of the next generation of USN warships.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgem









indigenious *
TF-2000 Frigate*
Budget of 15 Billion $ granted on 16th January 2008 from Givernment to SSM (Arms procurement Authority). 
TF-2000 will consist of 12.000 parts. 
http://www.cnnturk.com/TURKIYE/haber_detay.asp?PID=318&haberID=420063

*
6 AIP submarines
*
Project bidders 
   1. DCNS - France
   2. HDW/MFI-Germany
   3. Navantia S.A.-Spain 
http://www.ssm.gov.tr/EN/duyurular/proje/Pages/20071113_yenitip.aspx

?indigeniously?  *T-MALADMIS Medium Range Air-Defence* 
project bidders:   
   1. AKSA-TURKEY
   2. ASELSAN-TURKEY
   3. AYESAS-TURKEY
   4. CPMIEC- CHINA
   5. C-TECH- TURKEY
   6. DENEL- SOUTH AFRICA
   7. DIEHL- BGT GERMANY
   8. FNSS- TURKEY
   9. GATE-TURKEY
  10. IAI-ISRAEL
  11. MILSOFT- TURKEY
  12. RAFAEL- ISRAEL
  13. RAYTHEON-USA
  14. ROKETSAN- TURKEY
  15. SAAB BOFORS- SWEDEN 
http://www.ssm.gov.tr/EN/duyurular/proje/Pages/20070906_tmaladmis.aspx.aspx


consortium *A400M Transport Aircraft *
The delivery of aircraft to Turkey will be completed in-between 2009-2014.






consortium *F-35 *
First F-35 delivery to Turkey is planned to happen in 2014




*
30 new F-16*
The aircraft will be assembled and delivered from the TAI facilities in Ankara while TEI (Eski&#351;ehir) will assemble the engines. The aircraft will be equipped with SPEWS II EW system, being developed by M&#304;KES (Ankara) Company.
The first delivery is due mid-2011 and the last is to complete in 2012.
Contract signed on 30 April 2007.

*
AEW&C Wedgetail*
In May 2002, the Turkish government signed a contract with Boeing for four 737 AEW&C systems with options on a further two. The sale received US Government approval in September 2003. Boeing is modifying the first and Tusas Aerospace Industries (TAI) of Ankara the other three. The first aircraft for local modification arrived in March 2006.





*
Modernization of F-5*
Prime Contractor: Israeli Aerospace Industries
Avionics Modernization Program covers replacement of all cables in the aircraft, design of new wiring according to the new avionics, new avionics system integration, software design, and test of modernized aircraft. Structural Modernization Program covers extending structural life of A/Cs by changing some critical structural parts.

indigenious *16 patrol boats*
Contract signed on 23 August 2007 with Gearsan Naval Yard.





indigenious *Targeting Pods for F-4 and F-16*
Prime Contractor : ASELSAN
Contract Date : July 10, 2006
Status : Design phase
http://www.ssm.gov.tr/EN/Projeler/mebs/prjgrpc3/Pages/Aselpod__H.aspx






*Electro-Optical (EO) Reconnaissance and Surveillance Satellite System (GÖKTÜRK)*
Bidders : EADS ASTRIUM (UK), OHB-SYSTEM (Germany), TELESPAZIO (Italy)
http://www.ssm.gov.tr/EN/Projeler/mebs/prjgrpuydu/Pages/GOKTURK__H.aspx





indigenious *Turkish Military Satellite Communication System*
Planning/Modelling Phase by Istanbul Technical university
http://www.ssm.gov.tr/EN/Projeler/mebs/prjgrpuydu/Pages/TSKUyduMuhabereSistemi__G.aspx

indigenious *Electronic Warfare Systems for F-16 *
Prime/Sub Contractor: ASELSAN/M&#304;KES
Contract Date: November 23, 2003
Status: The project is in design and development phase.





indigenious *Mehmetcik-1*
new Standard Infantry weapon presented by Turkish defence Minister on 2nd picture










What else?
- Upgrade of all F-16 to Block 50+ standard
- Yildirim, Toros and Kasirga Missiles. 
- Popeye-1 and Popeye-2 Missiles from Israel. 
- Helicopter Carrier to be purchased from Italy
- F-4 upgrade by Israel. 
- All those precision amunition from USA in inventory (Sidewinder, AGM)
- ATR-72 (Anti-Submarine Warfare Planes)
- All those mechanized brigades. In last years Turkish Army procurred over 4.000 vehicles for troops and ammunition transport. Now again ordering 1.411 vehicles.


All those other stuff in Turkish inventory, and believe me it is huge, i did not even mention. From simple artillery to Apache and Super Cobra Attack Helicopters. Also Turkey is after USA the biggest Blackhawk operator. 
I tried to show only what is currently being produced, modernized or bought. 
All meeting NATO-Standard off-course.


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## ekrem (Mar 13, 2008)

The SSMs 2004 decision to emphasize strengthening local industry through encouragement to produce and design indigenous products and to cooperate if necessary in technology transfer from third countries has and continues to raise questions among some local and foreign defense industrialists, such as whether the Turkish defense industry policy is becoming more inward looking or neglecting cooperation with other countries.

However, SSM chief Bayar, speaking to Todays Zaman, denied such attempts, recalling Turkish cooperation in a European consortiums A 400 M heavy lift production project in which Turkey is a partner, adding that the 2007-2011 strategy paper identifies international cooperation in defense industry projects as one of the objectives of the SSM.

One of the strategic aims of the strategic SSM plan envisages Turkeys active participation in multilateral industry, defense and security projects that foresee international cooperation.

It will be ensured that Turkey will participate in at least four multinational defense projects from the very beginning, while at least one international project will be led by Turkey by 2011. The Turkish defense industrys share within NATO defense projects will be increased fourfold by the end of 2011.
http://www.turkishweekly.net/news.php?id=45154

Unbelievable how much Turkey has spent over decades abroad for weapons. 
Now we design, produce ourselves and will sell those stuff, too.
Despite the size of Turkish Army being 2nd to USA within NATO, Turkey is not 2nd in terms of quality. 
This is mainly because of Turkish Navy. 

Turkish Navy (only speaking in context of NATO) is above average. Germany, France, UK and Italy are stronger in Navy.  
Despite that Turkish Navy is dominant to all our neighbours, even some of them combined. So we can sea-blockade them. 

Conventional in Air and Land we will not grow in size, Airforce and Army are in its size dominant and firepower is deterrent to our pivotal region. We only will modernize in this branches instantly. 

But we will grow in Navy.


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