# Failed by US Healthcare



## Tommy Tainant (Sep 5, 2019)

Click here to support Help Devin Walk & Conquer Surfer's Myelopathy organized by Jim Morris

*The extended family has rallied around Devin and the fight for his recovery is in full swing.  We set up this GoFundMe page as a communication platform to ensure we keep all of Devin's family and friends up-to-date on his status, progress and recovery.  As you can imagine, the Gildners will incur significant medical bills, additional living expenses and extensive travel costs over the coming months and potentially years.  Any donations towards Devin's recovery and his family's needs are greatly appreciated.  If you are unable to donate, prayers and good vibes are just as important! *

In the developed world this young man would just have to focus on getting well.


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## SweetSue92 (Sep 5, 2019)

Tommy Tainant said:


> Click here to support Help Devin Walk & Conquer Surfer's Myelopathy organized by Jim Morris
> 
> *The extended family has rallied around Devin and the fight for his recovery is in full swing.  We set up this GoFundMe page as a communication platform to ensure we keep all of Devin's family and friends up-to-date on his status, progress and recovery.  As you can imagine, the Gildners will incur significant medical bills, additional living expenses and extensive travel costs over the coming months and potentially years.  Any donations towards Devin's recovery and his family's needs are greatly appreciated.  If you are unable to donate, prayers and good vibes are just as important! *
> 
> In the developed world this young man would just have to focus on getting well.



How many anti-American threads you gonna start or post on today?


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## Tommy Tainant (Sep 5, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
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> > Click here to support Help Devin Walk & Conquer Surfer's Myelopathy organized by Jim Morris
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How is this anti Amercan ? I am supporting Americans who want proper healthcare.


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## Tommy Tainant (Sep 5, 2019)

I see that you havent chipped in to help this youngster Sue. Charity has its limits I suppose.


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## SweetSue92 (Sep 5, 2019)

Tommy Tainant said:


> I see that you havent chipped in to help this youngster Sue. Charity has its limits I suppose.



Is there a Go Fund Me to help Tommy grow a brain?


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## westwall (Sep 5, 2019)

Tommy Tainant said:


> Click here to support Help Devin Walk & Conquer Surfer's Myelopathy organized by Jim Morris
> 
> *The extended family has rallied around Devin and the fight for his recovery is in full swing.  We set up this GoFundMe page as a communication platform to ensure we keep all of Devin's family and friends up-to-date on his status, progress and recovery.  As you can imagine, the Gildners will incur significant medical bills, additional living expenses and extensive travel costs over the coming months and potentially years.  Any donations towards Devin's recovery and his family's needs are greatly appreciated.  If you are unable to donate, prayers and good vibes are just as important! *
> 
> In the developed world this young man would just have to focus on getting well.







What a joke.  How about you campaign to fix your own NHS which is a epic failure.


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## keepitreal (Sep 5, 2019)

Tommy Tainant said:


> Click here to support Help Devin Walk & Conquer Surfer's Myelopathy organized by Jim Morris
> 
> *The extended family has rallied around Devin and the fight for his recovery is in full swing.  We set up this GoFundMe page as a communication platform to ensure we keep all of Devin's family and friends up-to-date on his status, progress and recovery.  As you can imagine, the Gildners will incur significant medical bills, additional living expenses and extensive travel costs over the coming months and potentially years.  Any donations towards Devin's recovery and his family's needs are greatly appreciated.  If you are unable to donate, prayers and good vibes are just as important! *
> 
> In the developed world this young man would just have to focus on getting well.


What...no Obamacare 

If they were illegals they wouldn’t have to pay for anything


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## Tommy Tainant (Sep 5, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
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> > I see that you havent chipped in to help this youngster Sue. Charity has its limits I suppose.
> ...


Still not chipped in Sue ?


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## irosie91 (Sep 5, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
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> > I see that you havent chipped in to help this youngster Sue. Charity has its limits I suppose.
> ...



that would be good-----his allegation of  FAILURE OF MEDICAL CARE is outrageous.   The kid damaged his spinal cord-----that is not a DISEASE,
it is a traumatic injury


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## airplanemechanic (Sep 5, 2019)

I thought Obamacare was so fucking great.

Guess this thread is proof its not! Thanks tommy!


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## SweetSue92 (Sep 5, 2019)

Tommy Tainant said:


> SweetSue92 said:
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You know what's pathetic Tommy is you don't give a crap about this kid and haven't donated one red cent yourself. You only care about the issues your overlords have pounded into your thick skull: that through controlling all the healthcare of the nation they can take total control over the population. Not being satisfied that this has happened in your nation, you have to find people who are suffering over here to meddle with.

So really, spare me your false compassion. Your overlords have control over you--goody for you. They don't have control over us. Your totalitarian heart is just going to have to live with that Tommy, however difficult it is for you.


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## Decus (Sep 5, 2019)

The UK has its own way of dealing with life threatening or terminal diseases:

'Made-up policy fudge' bringing financial hardship to terminally ill

Sad but true.

.


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## Tommy Tainant (Sep 5, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


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Yes, you can see that this kids family are enjoying their "freedom" right now. Having to beg in order to pay your bills really supports your dignity as an individual.

You still havent put a cent in babe. If you dont like the family do it for America !!! (And "freedom" natch)


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## SweetSue92 (Sep 5, 2019)

Tommy Tainant said:


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Not your babe Tommy. Will never be your babe, mark it. That's for starters.

For enders, Go Fund Me is not begging. But drinking water in a hospital out of a vase---now there's some dignity


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## Tommy Tainant (Sep 5, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
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You are such a hypocrite. Cant you and the other muppets on here spare a dollar between you ?


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## JoeB131 (Sep 5, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> How many anti-American threads you gonna start or post on today?



Frankly, as an American, I'm ashamed this kind of stuff happens to our citizens.

Why aren't you? 

Oh, those poor people need to die, just like Jesus wanted.


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## JoeB131 (Sep 5, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> You know what's pathetic Tommy is you don't give a crap about this kid and haven't donated one red cent yourself. You only care about the issues your overlords have pounded into your thick skull: that through controlling all the healthcare of the nation they can take total control over the population. Not being satisfied that this has happened in your nation, you have to find people who are suffering over here to meddle with.



Only SourSue would think that letting poor kids die of treatable diseases is a form of "Freedom".


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## JoeB131 (Sep 5, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> So really, spare me your false compassion. Your overlords have control over you--goody for you. They don't have control over us. Your totalitarian heart is just going to have to live with that Tommy, however difficult it is for you.



Sour Sue thinks it's fine that big soulless corporations can decide whether kids live or die... 

You know, just like Jesus did.


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## Yousaidwhat (Sep 5, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
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> > I see that you havent chipped in to help this youngster Sue. Charity has its limits I suppose.
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Let's not make it worse than it is.


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## Blues Man (Sep 5, 2019)

U.K.'s Healthcare Horror Stories Ought To Curb Dems' Enthusiasm For Single-Payer

Pacific Research Institute | Socialized medicine a global failure

NHS Socialized Medicine In Britain: Unmitigated Failure | Investor's Business Daily


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## JoeB131 (Sep 5, 2019)

Blues Man said:


> U.K.'s Healthcare Horror Stories Ought To Curb Dems' Enthusiasm For Single-Payer
> 
> Pacific Research Institute | Socialized medicine a global failure
> 
> NHS Socialized Medicine In Britain: Unmitigated Failure | Investor's Business Daily



Wow, right wing propaganda. 

Here's the reality. Even though the NHS is underfunded compared to programs in Germany or Japan, the fact is they have a higher life expectancy in the UK than the US, a lower infant mortality rate and they spend less per capita than we do.


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## Blues Man (Sep 5, 2019)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
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> > U.K.'s Healthcare Horror Stories Ought To Curb Dems' Enthusiasm For Single-Payer
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Yeah I really want the same government that can't do anything right making my health care decisions.

You are a fool to place so much trust in the largess of a bureaucracy.

There are countless examples of the failure of government health care


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## Blues Man (Sep 5, 2019)

I suppose CNN is a right wing source too huh?

Why single payer health care is a terrible option (Opinion) - CNN


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## Jitss617 (Sep 5, 2019)

Tommy Tainant said:


> Click here to support Help Devin Walk & Conquer Surfer's Myelopathy organized by Jim Morris
> 
> *The extended family has rallied around Devin and the fight for his recovery is in full swing.  We set up this GoFundMe page as a communication platform to ensure we keep all of Devin's family and friends up-to-date on his status, progress and recovery.  As you can imagine, the Gildners will incur significant medical bills, additional living expenses and extensive travel costs over the coming months and potentially years.  Any donations towards Devin's recovery and his family's needs are greatly appreciated.  If you are unable to donate, prayers and good vibes are just as important! *
> 
> In the developed world this young man would just have to focus on getting well.


Did you donate? It’s the American
Way


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## Blues Man (Sep 5, 2019)

7 Things You Need To Know About Britain's Failing Nationalized Health System


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## Dekster (Sep 5, 2019)

Tommy Tainant said:


> Click here to support Help Devin Walk & Conquer Surfer's Myelopathy organized by Jim Morris
> 
> *The extended family has rallied around Devin and the fight for his recovery is in full swing.  We set up this GoFundMe page as a communication platform to ensure we keep all of Devin's family and friends up-to-date on his status, progress and recovery.  As you can imagine, the Gildners will incur significant medical bills, additional living expenses and extensive travel costs over the coming months and potentially years.  Any donations towards Devin's recovery and his family's needs are greatly appreciated.  If you are unable to donate, prayers and good vibes are just as important! *
> 
> In the developed world this young man would just have to focus on getting well.



As you can tell, this young man is receiving medical care.  Does your NHS pay for "additional living expenses and extensive travel costs over the coming months and potentially years." as well as your "family's needs" just because you hyper-extend your spinal cord?


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## Tommy Tainant (Sep 5, 2019)

Blues Man said:


> 7 Things You Need To Know About Britain's Failing Nationalized Health System


Yet not one of you tight fisted scumbags have given this kid a cent to support his freedom to be bankrupted ? For shame on all of you.


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## Tommy Tainant (Sep 5, 2019)

JoeB131 said:


> SweetSue92 said:
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> > So really, spare me your false compassion. Your overlords have control over you--goody for you. They don't have control over us. Your totalitarian heart is just going to have to live with that Tommy, however difficult it is for you.
> ...


So it would seem.She also thinks that charity is a better  option than a proper health service. But stops short of giving herself.


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## Blues Man (Sep 5, 2019)

Tommy Tainant said:


> Blues Man said:
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> > 7 Things You Need To Know About Britain's Failing Nationalized Health System
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Not my problem.

funny how I have never had trouble paying for health insurance or getting care in the US.  Never had to wait months to get treated either.

And FYI neither have millions of other Americans.

So keep your nose in your own little country


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## dblack (Sep 5, 2019)

Tommy Tainant said:


> Click here to support Help Devin Walk & Conquer Surfer's Myelopathy organized by Jim Morris
> 
> *The extended family has rallied around Devin and the fight for his recovery is in full swing.  We set up this GoFundMe page as a communication platform to ensure we keep all of Devin's family and friends up-to-date on his status, progress and recovery.  As you can imagine, the Gildners will incur significant medical bills, additional living expenses and extensive travel costs over the coming months and potentially years.  Any donations towards Devin's recovery and his family's needs are greatly appreciated.  If you are unable to donate, prayers and good vibes are just as important! *
> 
> In the developed world this young man would just have to focus on getting well.



Huh???

How does this story have anything to do with the ridiculous thread title. How was anyone here "failed by US healthcare"? It's a sad story about a rare disease. But there was no failure of health care. You're faking headlines for your own agenda.


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## Tommy Tainant (Sep 5, 2019)

dblack said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
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> > Click here to support Help Devin Walk & Conquer Surfer's Myelopathy organized by Jim Morris
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It has failed this boy and his family who have been reduced to begging to pay the fees. Some "freedom"  that they are enjoying.


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## dblack (Sep 5, 2019)

Tommy Tainant said:


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Failed them how? What did "US healthcare" promise them that it failed to deliver on?

You seem to be starting with the assumption that the healthcare profession is a welfare program, which isn't the case here.



> Some "freedom"  that they are enjoying.



Why is freedom in quotes? Do you think freedom is a bad thing?


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## westwall (Sep 5, 2019)

Tommy Tainant said:


> SweetSue92 said:
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Pot meet kettle you ignorant twit.  This is the demented shit that you adore.  Fuck you.

*Sick boy, aged 8, 'condemned to die' by NHS wrangling*
*An EIGHT-year-old boy who suffers from a rare fatal illness has been effectively condemned to death after being denied a new life-saving treatment offered for free.*

*Sick boy, aged 8, 'condemned to die' by NHS wrangling*


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## westwall (Sep 5, 2019)

Tommy Tainant Where are you tainty?  How about responding to YOUR sick twisted medical system that will allow an 8 year old child to die because they are so fucked up.  C'mon tainty.  Defend this shit!



*Sick boy, aged 8, 'condemned to die' by NHS wrangling*
*An EIGHT-year-old boy who suffers from a rare fatal illness has been effectively condemned to death after being denied a new life-saving treatment offered for free.*
Sick boy, aged 8, 'condemned to die' by NHS wrangling


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## JoeB131 (Sep 5, 2019)

Blues Man said:


> Yeah I really want the same government that can't do anything right making my health care decisions.
> 
> You are a fool to place so much trust in the largess of a bureaucracy.
> 
> There are countless examples of the failure of government health care



Look, just because you are a tool of Koch propaganda....  doesn't mean the rest of us are 

I've worked for the government and the private sector.  I WISH I could land a full time government job rather than the halfassary I've seen in the private sector.  



Blues Man said:


> Not my problem.
> 
> funny how I have never had trouble paying for health insurance or getting care in the US. Never had to wait months to get treated either.
> 
> And FYI neither have millions of other Americans.



yeah... funny thing. I have had issues.  I paid into my Cigna plan every year for years, and then that day came when I needed medical care, and had to pretty much fight them for every test and therapy.  

MEANWHILE, these CEO's pay themselves 9 figure salaries because they cheat their policy holders.


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## JoeB131 (Sep 5, 2019)

westwall said:


> Tommy Tainant Where are you tainty? How about responding to YOUR sick twisted medical system that will allow an 8 year old child to die because they are so fucked up. C'mon tainty. Defend this shit!
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Hey, Westy, ever hear of Nataline Sarkisyan?  She was a 17 year old girl who needed a liver transplant that was denied by Cigna because it was deemed "experimental".  Unlike this kid, she had a chance at recovery. 

Do you really think there is an insurance company that would pay out $600,000 on a kid who was going to die anyway?


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## Oddball (Sep 5, 2019)

Tommy Tainant said:


> Click here to support Help Devin Walk & Conquer Surfer's Myelopathy organized by Jim Morris
> 
> *The extended family has rallied around Devin and the fight for his recovery is in full swing.  We set up this GoFundMe page as a communication platform to ensure we keep all of Devin's family and friends up-to-date on his status, progress and recovery.  As you can imagine, the Gildners will incur significant medical bills, additional living expenses and extensive travel costs over the coming months and potentially years.  Any donations towards Devin's recovery and his family's needs are greatly appreciated.  If you are unable to donate, prayers and good vibes are just as important! *
> 
> In the developed world this young man would just have to focus on getting well.





JoeB131 said:


> SweetSue92 said:
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> > So really, spare me your false compassion. Your overlords have control over you--goody for you. They don't have control over us. Your totalitarian heart is just going to have to live with that Tommy, however difficult it is for you.
> ...


And fuckwit JoeB thinks  that soulless bureaucrats can do any better.


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## westwall (Sep 5, 2019)

JoeB131 said:


> westwall said:
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> > Tommy Tainant Where are you tainty? How about responding to YOUR sick twisted medical system that will allow an 8 year old child to die because they are so fucked up. C'mon tainty. Defend this shit!
> ...







Hey, dickhead, the treatment for the 8 year old is offered FOR FREE!  This is the NHS demanding a child die for what?  Their fucking ego you prick


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## SweetSue92 (Sep 6, 2019)

westwall said:


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Where did Tommy go????


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## Mindful (Sep 6, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


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Regrouping?

Plenty more like him.

F***ing traitors.


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## fncceo (Sep 6, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> How many anti-American threads you gonna start or post on today?



He doesn't get paid until the puts at least five on his time card.


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## SweetSue92 (Sep 6, 2019)

fncceo said:


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If he got paid by the intelligent post he'd be in the negatives


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## Mindful (Sep 6, 2019)

fncceo said:


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So he _is _a bot?


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## fncceo (Sep 6, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


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Quantity, not quality, in the NHS.


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## Mindful (Sep 6, 2019)

fncceo said:


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I think some of their cancer treatments are pretty good.


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## SweetSue92 (Sep 6, 2019)

Mindful said:


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He's not a bot but he IS the perfect representation of a mindless liberal. Literally his best argument is "So's your mom!" I cannot stress enough that this is what I see daily from third graders, and not even the most sophisticated nor the smartest third graders.


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## Mindful (Sep 6, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


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He winds us all up. Then moves on to the next target. Mission accomplished.


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## westwall (Sep 6, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


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He fled like he always does when he gets his ass handed to him.


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## CrusaderFrank (Sep 6, 2019)

Tommy Tainant said:


> Click here to support Help Devin Walk & Conquer Surfer's Myelopathy organized by Jim Morris
> 
> *The extended family has rallied around Devin and the fight for his recovery is in full swing.  We set up this GoFundMe page as a communication platform to ensure we keep all of Devin's family and friends up-to-date on his status, progress and recovery.  As you can imagine, the Gildners will incur significant medical bills, additional living expenses and extensive travel costs over the coming months and potentially years.  Any donations towards Devin's recovery and his family's needs are greatly appreciated.  If you are unable to donate, prayers and good vibes are just as important! *
> 
> In the developed world this young man would just have to focus on getting well.



Why doesn't he just fly to Wales for free, first class, state of the art medical care?


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## Mindful (Sep 6, 2019)

CrusaderFrank said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
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> > Click here to support Help Devin Walk & Conquer Surfer's Myelopathy organized by Jim Morris
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He's already there.

On the arse end of nowhere.


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## JoeB131 (Sep 6, 2019)

Oddball said:


> And fuckwit JoeB thinks that soulless bureaucrats can do any better.



Um.. yeah..  Because the Bureaucrat isn't collecting a nine-figure salary for denying you care... that's why he'll do better. 



westwall said:


> Hey, dickhead, the treatment for the 8 year old is offered FOR FREE! This is the NHS demanding a child die for what? Their fucking ego you prick



They were only offering the medicine for free, NHS would have had to pick up all the other expenses of extending this kid's life for two or three months in excruciating pain.  Did you actually read up on this disease? It's always fatal.


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## JoeB131 (Sep 6, 2019)

fncceo said:


> Quantity, not quality, in the NHS.



The British spend half per GDP what we do, and they get better results, beating us in nearly every metric.


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## Mindful (Sep 6, 2019)

JoeB131 said:


> fncceo said:
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Why do some of them go over to the US for treatment not available in Britain?


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## JoeB131 (Sep 6, 2019)

Mindful said:


> Why do some of them go over to the US for treatment not available in Britain?



They don't.  

Hey, do you where the real "Medical Tourism" is.  

It's Americans going to Mexico for treatments they can't get in the US. 

Millions of Americans Flood Into Mexico for Health Care — The Human Caravan You Haven’t Heard About

At just one checkpoint in Yuma, Arizona, up to 6,000 Americans cross the border every day and enter the bustling Mexican town of Los Algodones, seeking heath care.


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## Mindful (Sep 6, 2019)

JoeB131 said:


> Mindful said:
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> > Why do some of them go over to the US for treatment not available in Britain?
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None of that has anything to do with what I posted.


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## Tommy Tainant (Sep 6, 2019)

westwall said:


> Tommy Tainant Where are you tainty?  How about responding to YOUR sick twisted medical system that will allow an 8 year old child to die because they are so fucked up.  C'mon tainty.  Defend this shit!
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This is what happens when conservatives manage healthcare. We need a socialist government to sort this out and protect us from tories.


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## Tommy Tainant (Sep 6, 2019)

JoeB131 said:


> westwall said:
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> > Tommy Tainant Where are you tainty? How about responding to YOUR sick twisted medical system that will allow an 8 year old child to die because they are so fucked up. C'mon tainty. Defend this shit!
> ...


Crickets.


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## Blues Man (Sep 6, 2019)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
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> > Yeah I really want the same government that can't do anything right making my health care decisions.
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I think I know why you want a government job.  Because you really don't want to work very hard but you want all the benefits.

Then you picked a shitty Insurance co

I have been paying my own insurance since I was in my late 20's and have never once had any problems getting medical care


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## NotYourBody (Sep 6, 2019)

JoeB131 said:


> Mindful said:
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> > Why do some of them go over to the US for treatment not available in Britain?
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They also go for dental care and veterinary care.


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## Bruce_T_Laney (Sep 6, 2019)

Tommy Tainant said:


> Click here to support Help Devin Walk & Conquer Surfer's Myelopathy organized by Jim Morris
> 
> *The extended family has rallied around Devin and the fight for his recovery is in full swing.  We set up this GoFundMe page as a communication platform to ensure we keep all of Devin's family and friends up-to-date on his status, progress and recovery.  As you can imagine, the Gildners will incur significant medical bills, additional living expenses and extensive travel costs over the coming months and potentially years.  Any donations towards Devin's recovery and his family's needs are greatly appreciated.  If you are unable to donate, prayers and good vibes are just as important! *
> 
> In the developed world this young man would just have to focus on getting well.



Or

Put on a waiting list and hope the British Healthcare allow him to live...


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## Bruce_T_Laney (Sep 6, 2019)

Tommy Tainant said:


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Why don't you donate all your earnings first and show us how we should behave!


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## Mindful (Sep 6, 2019)

Bruce_T_Laney said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
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It's not that bad.


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## Bruce_T_Laney (Sep 6, 2019)

Mindful said:


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It is bad enough...


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## westwall (Sep 6, 2019)

JoeB131 said:


> fncceo said:
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> > Quantity, not quality, in the NHS.
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Facts in evidence say exactly the opposite.   Lie all you like, but thinking people are on to your lies now.


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## westwall (Sep 6, 2019)

Tommy Tainant said:


> westwall said:
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> > Tommy Tainant Where are you tainty?  How about responding to YOUR sick twisted medical system that will allow an 8 year old child to die because they are so fucked up.  C'mon tainty.  Defend this shit!
> ...







The NHS ain't conservatives asshole.  It is brainless,  heartless bureaucracies determining who lives and who dies on a whim.

You fucking pissant.


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## westwall (Sep 6, 2019)

Tommy Tainant said:


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Have more brains than you do.


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## Flash (Sep 6, 2019)

If that asshole Obama hadn't screwed up health care by running up the cost of health insurance's co payments, deductibles and premiums with Obamacare a lot more people would have better coverage.

But he did and too many people are reaping the consequences of the stupid Moon Bats electing him to office.

Obamacare was a disaster that was sold with lies and the idiot Moon Bats should bitch about what they caused by electing the worst President in the history of the Republic.


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## JoeB131 (Sep 6, 2019)

Mindful said:


> None of that has anything to do with what I posted.



Um, yeah, it did.  It's the tired old song of the dumb tools. "But if the Socialized medicine is so great, why do some rich people fly here to get treatment." 

The answer is, THEY DON'T.  

But lots of Americans who can't get insurance do go down to Mexico where they can pay for procedures out of pocket. 



Blues Man said:


> I think I know why you want a government job. Because you really don't want to work very hard but you want all the benefits.



I'd just be happy with an employer who didn't fuck me at every opportunity... You know, what we had until you shitheads got rid of the unions. 



Blues Man said:


> Then you picked a shitty Insurance co
> 
> I have been paying my own insurance since I was in my late 20's and have never once had any problems getting medical care



That's the point.  I didn't pick it.  My employer did.  And I opted for the most expensive plan because I knew I was getting to the age where I'd have more medical issues than when I was in my 20's.  

But Cigna pretty much fucked me over... because that's what big insurance does.


----------



## JoeB131 (Sep 6, 2019)

westwall said:


> Facts in evidence say exactly the opposite. Lie all you like, but thinking people are on to your lies now.



I do enjoy the space I occupy in your head.... but the facts are the facts.  


The British outperform us in every metric of health and wellness.  

So let's go with some charts.  Here's what both countries spend, as a percentage of GDP. 






Here's what people think about their health care.  






Here's charts on accessability. 






Here's how the US compares on life expectency and infant mortality.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Sep 6, 2019)

Tommy Tainant said:


> Click here to support Help Devin Walk & Conquer Surfer's Myelopathy organized by Jim Morris
> 
> *The extended family has rallied around Devin and the fight for his recovery is in full swing.  We set up this GoFundMe page as a communication platform to ensure we keep all of Devin's family and friends up-to-date on his status, progress and recovery.  As you can imagine, the Gildners will incur significant medical bills, additional living expenses and extensive travel costs over the coming months and potentially years.  Any donations towards Devin's recovery and his family's needs are greatly appreciated.  If you are unable to donate, prayers and good vibes are just as important! *
> 
> In the developed world this young man would just have to focus on getting well.



You guys must have some groovy cures for this stuff, eh?

Why don't you send him some?


----------



## dblack (Sep 6, 2019)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > Then you picked a shitty Insurance co
> ...



Then you picked a shitty employer.


----------



## Mindful (Sep 6, 2019)

JoeB131 said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> > None of that has anything to do with what I posted.
> ...



I can't be bothered with any of that.

You just don't get it.


----------



## JoeB131 (Sep 6, 2019)

dblack said:


> Then you picked a shitty employer.



They're all shitty.  The best companies I worked for were owned by foreigners...  

The question is, WHY DO WE LET OUR EMPLOYERS HAVE THIS KIND OF POWER OVER US?  

I knew I was working for shitballs pretty early, but didn't want to change employers while I was undergoing medical treatment and have the next guy call it a "pre-existing condition".  

Now, here's the thing.  If we eliminated employer health insurance without doing single payer, the medical system would collapse in a few years.  Young people wouldn't buy insurance and old folks couldn't afford it.


----------



## JoeB131 (Sep 6, 2019)

Mindful said:


> I can't be bothered with any of that.
> 
> You just don't get it.



I get it just fine...  You believe a myth.  The kernal of truth is that rich people from other countries will come here for treatments most Americans can't even dream of accessing.   Being rich is actually kind of awesome.  

But average Brits or Canadians are not flocking here.  Instead, average Americans are flocking to Mexico to get treatment.


----------



## dblack (Sep 6, 2019)

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Then you picked a shitty employer.
> ...



I don't know. Why do you?

It think it's because many people actually want to be slaves. That want to be owned.


----------



## Dont Taz Me Bro (Sep 6, 2019)

Tommy Tainant said:


> Click here to support Help Devin Walk & Conquer Surfer's Myelopathy organized by Jim Morris
> 
> *The extended family has rallied around Devin and the fight for his recovery is in full swing.  We set up this GoFundMe page as a communication platform to ensure we keep all of Devin's family and friends up-to-date on his status, progress and recovery.  As you can imagine, the Gildners will incur significant medical bills, additional living expenses and extensive travel costs over the coming months and potentially years.  Any donations towards Devin's recovery and his family's needs are greatly appreciated.  If you are unable to donate, prayers and good vibes are just as important! *
> 
> In the developed world this young man would just have to focus on getting well.



Do you need me to start linking to all the failure of the NHS?

I don't think you do......


----------



## Dont Taz Me Bro (Sep 6, 2019)

JoeB131 said:


> They're all shitty.  The best companies I worked for were owned by foreigners...
> 
> The question is, WHY DO WE LET OUR EMPLOYERS HAVE THIS KIND OF POWER OVER US?



I guess most of you are too incompetent to take care of yourselves


----------



## JoeB131 (Sep 6, 2019)

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


> I guess most of you are too incompetent to take care of yourselves



I'm guessing you've never had to deal with a serious medical condition...  Get back to me when you do and your insurance decides that the procedure is "elective".


----------



## JoeB131 (Sep 6, 2019)

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


> Do you need me to start linking to all the failure of the NHS?
> 
> I don't think you do......



You can cherry pick horror stories from either system.  In the US, 96,000 Americans die every year due to medical mistakes. 

But on the metrics...

The British spend less
Their people are happier with their system than we are with ours
They live longer
Less of their babies die
nobody goes bankrupt because they got sick and lost their jobs.


----------



## Mindful (Sep 6, 2019)

JoeB131 said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> > I can't be bothered with any of that.
> ...



Where do you get the idea that average Brits  are flocking to America for treatment?  It's usually a last resort, to get treatment for a severe condition, not treatable in the UK. 

Just not available. Do you get it? I thought I'd  already made that clear.

And as it's not covered by the British health service, these people have to somehow raise the money for the costs themselves. That's how desperate they are. Particularly when it involves their children.


----------



## Harry Dresden (Sep 6, 2019)

Tommy Tainant said:


> Click here to support Help Devin Walk & Conquer Surfer's Myelopathy organized by Jim Morris
> 
> *The extended family has rallied around Devin and the fight for his recovery is in full swing.  We set up this GoFundMe page as a communication platform to ensure we keep all of Devin's family and friends up-to-date on his status, progress and recovery.  As you can imagine, the Gildners will incur significant medical bills, additional living expenses and extensive travel costs over the coming months and potentially years.  Any donations towards Devin's recovery and his family's needs are greatly appreciated.  If you are unable to donate, prayers and good vibes are just as important! *
> 
> In the developed world this young man would just have to focus on getting well.


tommy how come the original drummer for Iron Maiden who had MS had to have benefit concerts for him to help pay his medical bills?...is England not part of that "developed" world you mentioned?..


----------



## Mindful (Sep 6, 2019)

JoeB131 said:


> Dont Taz Me Bro said:
> 
> 
> > Do you need me to start linking to all the failure of the NHS?
> ...



You could always emigrate there. The weather is lovely.


----------



## Mindful (Sep 6, 2019)

Not only that, British people go to India for hip replacement surgery, the waiting list being so long.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 6, 2019)

Mindful said:


> Not only that,


Americans flood into India for health treatment
You could always emigrate there. The weather is lovely.


----------



## Blues Man (Sep 7, 2019)

JoeB131 said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> > None of that has anything to do with what I posted.
> ...



I'm sure it's you and not your employer that's the problem.


----------



## Blues Man (Sep 7, 2019)

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Then you picked a shitty employer.
> ...


Work for yourself but then again you'd proibaby be a shitty boss so you'd wind up complaining about yourself


----------



## JoeB131 (Sep 7, 2019)

dblack said:


> I don't know. Why do you?
> 
> It think it's because many people actually want to be slaves. That want to be owned.



Okay, I keep forgetting I am dealing with a Libertarian Child who thinks the world should work to his whims.  

The reality is, if we all had to negotiate our health insurance on an individual basis, we'd be screwed.  The biggest complaints against the insurance companies come from people who have to buy their policies on an individual level.  They pay exhoribtant rates for shitty coverage and have no real recourse if the insurance company wants to do backsies.


----------



## JoeB131 (Sep 7, 2019)

Blues Man said:


> I'm sure it's you and not your employer that's the problem.



I realize personal attacks are all you have when you can't defend a bad system.  



Blues Man said:


> Work for yourself but then again you'd proibaby be a shitty boss so you'd wind up complaining about yourself



I do currently work for myself... that's not the point.  The point is, when you get rid of unions and the government works for the rich and not working people, like it does now, it kind of sucks to be a working person.  

When my boss at the company that changed my mind on politics screwed over my career, knowing that I couldn't change jobs when I had an operation coming up, he said, verbatim, "This is why I'm so glad I don't have to deal with a union!"  

You see, here's the thing.  If people voted their own economic interests, the Republicans would be gone, gone, gone. Deader than the Whigs and far more deserving. 

What keeps STUPID people like you voting for them is they bring up all the God, Guns and Gays bullshit.  With healthy dollups of racism.


----------



## JoeB131 (Sep 7, 2019)

Mindful said:


> You could always emigrate there. The weather is lovely.



Or we could curb stomp you bible thumping morons into the ground and fix this country.


----------



## dblack (Sep 7, 2019)

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know. Why do you?
> ...



"I realize personal attacks are all you have when you can't defend a bad system."



> The reality is, if we all had to negotiate our health insurance on an individual basis, we'd be screwed.  The biggest complaints against the insurance companies come from people who have to buy their policies on an individual level.  They pay exhoribtant rates for shitty coverage and have no real recourse if the insurance company wants to do backsies.



The reality is you want a government that takes care of you like a child (or a slave). Even if that means giving up your liberty. I'll pass.


----------



## JoeB131 (Sep 7, 2019)

dblack said:


> The reality is you want a government that takes care of you like a child (or a slave). Even if that means giving up your liberty. I'll pass.



Whenever one of you tools talks about "Liberty" or "Freedom" what you usually mean is, "the ability of those with money to abuse the rest of us".  

That you are too dumb to realize this, or too brainwashed by Koch Brothers money, is kind of sad.  You have no desire to live under anarchy, but you are happy to live under Plutocracy...


----------



## dblack (Sep 7, 2019)

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > The reality is you want a government that takes care of you like a child (or a slave). Even if that means giving up your liberty. I'll pass.
> ...



What you are too dumb to realize is the profound difference between economic power and political power. No matter how rich he is, Bill Gates can't force you to do anything against your will. You are always free to ignore him. You don't have that option with government.

If you don't like your insurance company, you can fire them. If you put government in charge of your insurance, you're stuck with whatever they serve up.


----------



## JoeB131 (Sep 7, 2019)

dblack said:


> What you are too dumb to realize is the profound difference between economic power and political power. No matter how rich he is, Bill Gates can't force you to do anything against your will. You are always free to ignore him. You don't have that option with government.



Quite the contrary, my ability to live free of Bill Gates is limited.  I mean, yeah, I could refuse to buy microsoft products... but they touch every aspect of my life because he's been allowed a monopoly.  He can buy and sell politicians at a whim. And there isn't a damned thing I can do about it. 

ON the other hand, I have an option with government. I can vote those bastards out of office.  

Right now, we are in a wonderful fight in my home town.  Some private company is trying to buy a hotel and convert it into a drug rehab center.  This would screw our town for a number of reasons (Lost revenue, increased crime, strain on town services.) 

Funny thing happened.  The people spoke up, and the politicians who were keen on this idea aren't so keen on it anymore. They like getting re-elected and listened. 



dblack said:


> f you don't like your insurance company, you can fire them.



No, I can't.  Not if I'm getting it through my job.  More to the point, what's the point of firing someone AFTER they've taken your money and provided nothing.  That's fucking daft. 



dblack said:


> If you put government in charge of your insurance, you're stuck with whatever they serve up.



Which I'm fine with, as they have an incentive to serve up something pretty good, as they want to keep getting votes.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 7, 2019)

Yes, like it or not, government exists to serve We the people, not just the billionaires. It remains accountable to Us, unlike the billionaires. But you goofballs all know that full well. You just can't say it out loud.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 7, 2019)

dblack said:


> Bill Gates can't force you to do anything against your will. You are always free to ignore him. You don't have that option with government.


You can ignore your taxes and pay a penalty later. Perhaps go to jail for a stretch. You can break the speed limit until caught, etc. You cannot make the govt serve you personally unless you're Bill Gates, or Jeff Bezos, or some other billionaire. Hell, even a fake "billionaire" like Trump has a major Party and a lot of major media transfixed, waiting for his next Tweet.

However, the govt must serve you in general else risk being voted out or sued. Not Bill Gates. The entire point of hiding behind a corporation is not getting sued. And who will you rely upon should you need to sue govt or anyone? Bill Gates?

Actually the irony about Bill Gates in particular is that he's been doing nothing for MicroSoft but fucking them for $20 billion/yr for at least a decade now. That they can still manage to show a profit is impressive.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 7, 2019)

Harry Dresden said:


> tommy how come the original drummer for Iron Maiden who had MS had to have benefit concerts for him to help pay his medical bills?...is England not part of that "developed" world you mentioned?..


Had to? Sorry, but that sounds like mostly _{cough}_ BS to me:


> “We think it’s time for a break,” they told Clive. And that was that. After the best part of four years, three albums – not just any old albums, either, but the three albums that many Iron Maiden fan will tell you remain the band’s best work – and suddenly the dream was over, just as it was all coming true.
> 
> Everybody knows what happened next for Maiden.
> 
> ...


But, um, nice _(cough)_ try.


----------



## Harry Dresden (Sep 7, 2019)

Grumblenuts said:


> Harry Dresden said:
> 
> 
> > tommy how come the original drummer for Iron Maiden who had MS had to have benefit concerts for him to help pay his medical bills?...is England not part of that "developed" world you mentioned?..
> ...


sorry i saw a interview with steve harris and he said they did the concerts for him because he was in deep debt because of his treatments and their expense on his family....so take it up with him....i figure he knows a little bit more than we do...


----------



## dblack (Sep 7, 2019)

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > What you are too dumb to realize is the profound difference between economic power and political power. No matter how rich he is, Bill Gates can't force you to do anything against your will. You are always free to ignore him. You don't have that option with government.
> ...



That's just not true, Joe. I haven't bought a Microsoft product in years. I "voted" Bill Gates out of my life by simply not doing business with him.



> ON the other hand, I have an option with government. I can vote those bastards out of office.



Really? How'd that go last time? If you're relying on an election to get your way, your "say" is approximately 1 in 100,000,000. If you make your own decisions, and aren't relying on government to make them for you, your vote is the only one that matters.



> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > f you don't like your insurance company, you can fire them.
> ...



You can get another job. Listen, a core plank of the liberal platform is this attempt to equate economic power with political power (because they want both). But the difference between the power a business has and the power of the government is profound. It's the difference between getting fired and getting thrown in prison.



> More to the point, what's the point of firing someone AFTER they've taken your money and provided nothing.  That's fucking daft.



If they've taken your money and provided you with nothing, sue them. I mean, that's not really what we're talking about here, but if your complaint is that insurance companies are committing fraud, I'm right there with you. Lock 'em up.



> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > If you put government in charge of your insurance, you're stuck with whatever they serve up.
> ...



Dr. Trump will see you now.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 7, 2019)

Harry Dresden said:


> Grumblenuts said:
> 
> 
> > Harry Dresden said:
> ...


Sorry, Steve is unavailable and was presumably responsible for sacking Clive for taking a little break when his father died, thus remains wracked with guilt in retrospect for that idiocy. Sounds like they were mainly jealous of his good looks and thus all the attention he got from the fans. What I quoted is from a family interview. I think they knew better and had less reason to embellish upon the truth.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 7, 2019)

dblack said:


> You can get another job. Listen, a core plank of the liberal platform is this attempt to equate economic power with political power (because they want both). But the difference between the power a business has and the power of the government is profound. It's the difference between getting fired and getting thrown in prison.


Where, odds are, you'd at least get the healthcare you need.  Stay, quit, or "get fired" - you're fucked without healthcare. Likely dead.

The Republican Healthcare Plan


----------



## dblack (Sep 7, 2019)

Grumblenuts said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > You can get another job. Listen, a core plank of the liberal platform is this attempt to equate economic power with political power (because they want both). But the difference between the power a business has and the power of the government is profound. It's the difference between getting fired and getting thrown in prison.
> ...



So, are you really saying you'd rather go to prison than get fired?? 

I suppose you are. This is really the argument in a nutshell.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Sep 7, 2019)

Grumblenuts said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > You can get another job. Listen, a core plank of the liberal platform is this attempt to equate economic power with political power (because they want both). But the difference between the power a business has and the power of the government is profound. It's the difference between getting fired and getting thrown in prison.
> ...



Where is that wife-beating twat now? 
I miss his moronic whining on the floor of the House.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 7, 2019)

dblack said:


> Grumblenuts said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...


Because you're nuts or lack a brain it seems. No, the point obviously was getting yourself fired doesn't help with your healthcare problem. Try to focus instead of dissembling.


----------



## dblack (Sep 7, 2019)

Grumblenuts said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Grumblenuts said:
> ...



I'm trying to explain the difference between state power and economic power. Why are you deflecting?


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 7, 2019)

dblack said:


> I'm trying to explain the difference between state power and economic power. Why are you deflecting?


Meanwhile, the topic remains *"Failed by US Healthcare"*


----------



## dblack (Sep 7, 2019)

Grumblenuts said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > I'm trying to explain the difference between state power and economic power. Why are you deflecting?
> ...



Right. And the entire thread is an argument for creating a state monopoly on health insurance.


----------



## Mindful (Sep 7, 2019)

JoeB131 said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> > You could always emigrate there. The weather is lovely.
> ...



We don't thump bibles.

You should get  out more.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 7, 2019)

dblack said:


> Grumblenuts said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...


As though we had a right to some minimal standard of healthcare like the rest of the developed world or something. Go figure. 

Your defining "economic power" as "the power a business has" as opposed to "state power" is ridiculous anyway. It's hardly an either/or situation and _*conveniently*_ neglects (distracts from) the billionaire class (the actual main culprits). Dissembling. The main purpose of politics wherever billionaires are left to their own devices.


----------



## dblack (Sep 7, 2019)

Grumblenuts said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Grumblenuts said:
> ...



I'm not sure what you're going on about here. But I think going from a handful of dominant corporations, to one, is a mistake.

I suppose you're thinking that one insurance company, owned by the state, would be more attentive to consumer desires than a free market. But it's hard to see how. If anything, I suspect it would be much less responsive - especially when it comes to minority markets. Once they've appeased 51% of voters there's no need to go further, no need to cater to small demographics.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 7, 2019)

Well, no real need to guess there with so many 1st world countries serving as guinea pigs...


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 7, 2019)

> The giant pharmaceutical and health insurance lobbies have spent _billions_ of dollars over the past decades to ensure that their profits come before the health of the American people. We must defeat them, together. That means:
> 
> 
> Joining every other major country on Earth and guaranteeing health care to all people as a right, not a privilege, through a Medicare-for-all, single-payer program.
> ...


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 7, 2019)

dblack said:


> If anything, I suspect it would be much less responsive - especially when it comes to minority markets. Once they've appeased 51% of voters there's no need to go further, no need to cater to small demographics.


Really beginning too worry, huh?


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 7, 2019)

> Hence, this generation, which might be called Generation Z-Plus, is the first truly minority white generation, at 49.6 percent white, where 26 percent of its members are Hispanics, 13.6 percent African-Americans, and nearly 10 percent include Asians and persons of two or more races.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Sep 7, 2019)

Grumblenuts said:


> > Hence, this generation, which might be called Generation Z-Plus, is the first truly minority white generation, at 49.6 percent white, where 26 percent of its members are Hispanics, 13.6 percent African-Americans, and nearly 10 percent include Asians and persons of two or more races.



Hispanics are all black/non-white?

When did that happen?


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 7, 2019)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Hispanics are all black/non-white?


Math is hard. Harder if you're already an idiot.


----------



## westwall (Sep 7, 2019)

Grumblenuts said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > Hispanics are all black/non-white?
> ...







Yes, you are clear evidence of that.  Now address his point.


----------



## Coyote (Sep 7, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> > Click here to support Help Devin Walk & Conquer Surfer's Myelopathy organized by Jim Morris
> ...


When it comes to healthcare he has a point.  We are increasingly regressive.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 7, 2019)

westwall said:


> Grumblenuts said:
> 
> 
> > Toddsterpatriot said:
> ...


Ah, look at you. So cute, laughing at his "point" and all..  Okay, I'll hold your hands..
From the same source (Brookings):


> First, for the first time since the Census Bureau has released these annual statistics, they show an absolute decline in *the nation’s white non-Hispanic population*—accelerating a phenomenon that was not projected to occur until the next decade.


Ah, see, they do exist! it's just that the Hispanic whites are apparently still breeding like the rest. It's just the non-Hispanic whites throwing in the towel. So funny, hahahaha!


----------



## dblack (Sep 7, 2019)

Grumblenuts said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > If anything, I suspect it would be much less responsive - especially when it comes to minority markets. Once they've appeased 51% of voters there's no need to go further, no need to cater to small demographics.
> ...



What are you getting at? Are you trying to make a point about something relevant?


----------



## Weatherman2020 (Sep 7, 2019)

Tommy Tainant said:


> Click here to support Help Devin Walk & Conquer Surfer's Myelopathy organized by Jim Morris
> 
> *The extended family has rallied around Devin and the fight for his recovery is in full swing.  We set up this GoFundMe page as a communication platform to ensure we keep all of Devin's family and friends up-to-date on his status, progress and recovery.  As you can imagine, the Gildners will incur significant medical bills, additional living expenses and extensive travel costs over the coming months and potentially years.  Any donations towards Devin's recovery and his family's needs are greatly appreciated.  If you are unable to donate, prayers and good vibes are just as important! *
> 
> In the developed world this young man would just have to focus on getting well.


How much did you give?


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 7, 2019)

dblack
You seemed worried about "minority markets" not being served.

Back to the Census:


> The 1997 OMB standards permit the reporting of more than one race. An individual’s response to the race question is based upon self-identification.
> 
> An individual’s response to the race question is based upon self-identification. The Census Bureau does not tell individuals which boxes to mark or what heritage to write in. *For the first time in Census 2000, individuals were presented with the option to self-identify with more than one race and this continued with the 2010 Census. People who identify with more than one race may choose to provide multiple races in response to the race question. For example, if a respondent identifies as "Asian" and "White," they may respond to the question on race by checking the appropriate boxes that describe their racial identities and/or writing in these identities on the spaces provided.*


----------



## dblack (Sep 7, 2019)

Grumblenuts said:


> You seemed worried about "minority markets" not being served.
> 
> Back to the Census:
> 
> ...



I wasn't referring to race, numbnuts.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 7, 2019)

dblack said:


> I wasn't referring to race,


Well, maybe you should try to be clearer.


----------



## TroglocratsRdumb (Sep 7, 2019)

*Thousands died waiting for NHS*
Thousands died waiting for NHS funding
*
*


----------



## dblack (Sep 7, 2019)

Grumblenuts said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > I wasn't referring to race,
> ...



Sorry. I was referring to minority voting blocks. If government takes over, the services available to any given demographic will depend on how much political influence they have. Niche markets at least have a chance in a free market. They are likely to be ignore entirely with a centralized state solution.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 7, 2019)

*U.S. Performs Worst on Potentially Preventable Death Rates Compared to France, Germany, and the U.K.
U.S. Performs Worst on Potentially Preventable Death Rates Compared to France, Germany, and the U.K.; U.S. Also Improving at Slowest Pace
*


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 7, 2019)

dblack said:


> Grumblenuts said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...


That's why it's called stuff like "Universal Healthcare", "Medicare For All", ... Because all have the same right and are to be served equally by the govt. That's the entire basis.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Sep 7, 2019)

Grumblenuts said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Grumblenuts said:
> ...



Exactly!
I have the same right to wait 6 months for treatment as the guy who needs a heart transplant.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 7, 2019)

So you're a minority voting block. Who knew?


----------



## dblack (Sep 7, 2019)

Grumblenuts said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Grumblenuts said:
> ...



We don't do equal rights in this country. Your "rights" depend on how much lobbying clout you can muster.


----------



## dblack (Sep 7, 2019)

Grumblenuts said:


> So you're a minority voting block. Who knew?



Are you talking to me? If so, WTF are you trying to say?


----------



## Tommy Tainant (Sep 8, 2019)

Lots of deflection on this thread.

Let me pose a question.

Shouldnt you have a system in place where you can be sick without needing charity ?


----------



## Blues Man (Sep 8, 2019)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > I'm sure it's you and not your employer that's the problem.
> ...



Do have a memory problem?

I haven't voted for a republican in 20 years.  I don't care if gay people get married or adopt kids, I don't really believe in God, and the only racist asshole I see in this thread is you.

And you chose to work for a shitty company and you're still whining about it how many years later?

Grow the fuck up and get over it


----------



## CrusaderFrank (Sep 8, 2019)

Tommy Tainant said:


> Click here to support Help Devin Walk & Conquer Surfer's Myelopathy organized by Jim Morris
> 
> *The extended family has rallied around Devin and the fight for his recovery is in full swing.  We set up this GoFundMe page as a communication platform to ensure we keep all of Devin's family and friends up-to-date on his status, progress and recovery.  As you can imagine, the Gildners will incur significant medical bills, additional living expenses and extensive travel costs over the coming months and potentially years.  Any donations towards Devin's recovery and his family's needs are greatly appreciated.  If you are unable to donate, prayers and good vibes are just as important! *
> 
> In the developed world this young man would just have to focus on getting well.


Thanks, Obama!


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 8, 2019)

dblack said:


> Grumblenuts said:
> 
> 
> > So you're a minority voting block. Who knew?
> ...


No, I was addressing the previous comment.



dblack said:


> We don't do equal rights in this country. Your "rights" depend on how much lobbying clout you can muster.


That's the sad reality for the most part. Not the ideal. "Failed by US Healthcare" is the topic. I don't waste my time worrying about how best to tweak hopelessly broken systems from within. Let's replace it with something that we already know works, unlike Obamacare. Improved Medicare For All. We can take the best of what other countries have done and experienced and use those ideas to improve upon the best of what we've done and experienced (VA and Medicare).



Tommy Tainant said:


> Shouldnt you have a system in place where you can be sick without needing charity ?


Everyone can get sick here without needing charity. They just need to follow The Republican Healthcare Plan as outlined here by Alan Grayson previously. Or we could get serious..


----------



## JoeB131 (Sep 8, 2019)

dblack said:


> That's just not true, Joe. I haven't bought a Microsoft product in years. I "voted" Bill Gates out of my life by simply not doing business with him.



Well, if you like to think so.. go ahead. (Psst. Psst. If you have an Apple, Bill still owns you!) 



dblack said:


> Really? How'd that go last time? If you're relying on an election to get your way, your "say" is approximately 1 in 100,000,000. If you make your own decisions, and aren't relying on government to make them for you, your vote is the only one that matters.



It went just fine... until the Russians stole it.  



dblack said:


> You can get another job. Listen, a core plank of the liberal platform is this attempt to equate economic power with political power (because they want both). But the difference between the power a business has and the power of the government is profound. It's the difference between getting fired and getting thrown in prison.



Here's the difference. Yes, we give government a LOT of power.  It's called CIVILIZATION.  The thing is, we have a whole lot of rules of under what circumstances the government can throw us in jail.  Our criminal justice system has problems, but most of the people in jail did what got them in there.  

On the other hand, in a world of "At Will" employment, you can have the rug pulled out from underneath you at any time. That company that screwed me over. Worked for them for six years.  Put in long hours, made them a lot of money by putting in the extra effort.  And the minute I got injured and started running up medical bills, they were looking for ways to screw me.  

Single Payer... take the power away from them, give it back to US.  

That works for me. 



dblack said:


> If they've taken your money and provided you with nothing, sue them. I mean, that's not really what we're talking about here, but if your complaint is that insurance companies are committing fraud, I'm right there with you. Lock 'em up.



Are you some kind of fucking retard?  I'm just asking for a friend.  The Insurance Industry spends BILLIONS lobbying congress. 

This is what needs to change.  We need to keep the rich from buying our democracy.  We need to treat lobbying and contributions as what they are - BRIBES.  Everyone involved goes to big boy jail.  

My ideal world- Ed Hanaway is charged with murdering Nataline Sarkisyan... and he gets thrown in jail with an oversexed cellmate. 



dblack said:


> Dr. Trump will see you now.



Yeah, you know what, Trump sucks up for votes just like the rest of them. That's why he hasn't disbanded O-care as much as he rants about it.  What does that tell you?


----------



## JoeB131 (Sep 8, 2019)

Mindful said:


> We don't thump bibles.
> 
> You should get out more.



Actually, you morons do. YOu keep voting against your own economic interests because some idiot says "Jesus" to you sincerely... 



dblack said:


> I'm not sure what you're going on about here. But I think going from a handful of dominant corporations, to one, is a mistake.
> 
> I suppose you're thinking that one insurance company, owned by the state, would be more attentive to consumer desires than a free market. But it's hard to see how. If anything, I suspect it would be much less responsive - especially when it comes to minority markets. Once they've appeased 51% of voters there's no need to go further, no need to cater to small demographics.



Again, rest of the world does it this way... they live longer, spend less and are happier with their systems.


----------



## Mindful (Sep 8, 2019)

JoeB131 said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> > We don't thump bibles.
> ...



Who are you to say who's a moron?


----------



## JoeB131 (Sep 8, 2019)

Blues Man said:


> Do have a memory problem?
> 
> I haven't voted for a republican in 20 years. I don't care if gay people get married or adopt kids, I don't really believe in God, and the only racist asshole I see in this thread is you.
> 
> ...



Hey, guy, given how bad the GOP fucks everything up, I see why you'd be embarrassed about supporting them, yet you shill for their positions here every day..  

They're all shitty companies. If they weren't, they wouldn't have to pay us to be there.  I'm fine with that.  

What I'm not fine with... them having as much say in our well-being as they do.


----------



## JoeB131 (Sep 8, 2019)

Mindful said:


> Who are you to say who's a moron?



Well, you keep getting on here saying stupid shit... so you are, obviously.  You even keep saying it when proven wrong.


----------



## Mindful (Sep 8, 2019)

JoeB131 said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> > Who are you to say who's a moron?
> ...



I don't think it's stupid shit.


----------



## JoeB131 (Sep 8, 2019)

Mindful said:


> I don't think it's stupid shit.



Yeah, I know you don't think it is, but it is. 

To recap. You claimed that American Health care is superior to European Socialist health care because all these rich people are coming here for treatments Americans can get because their insurance won't spring for it.  

That's really not a superior system. I mean, yeah, it's great for a rich person... but not for the average American.  

MEANWHILE, hundreds of thousands of Americans with shitty insurance are crossing down into Mexico to get cut rate treatments they can't afford because they either have no insurance, or their deductables are too high, or their insurance companies find other ways to cheat them after they've gotten their money.  

This system is severely broken.  Unless you are rich.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 8, 2019)

JoeB131 said:


> It went just fine... until the Russians stole it.


No, they really didn't.


----------



## Mindful (Sep 8, 2019)

JoeB131 said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think it's stupid shit.
> ...



I never said ANY of that.


----------



## dblack (Sep 8, 2019)

Tommy Tainant said:


> Lots of deflection on this thread.
> 
> Let me pose a question.
> 
> Shouldnt you have a system in place where you can be sick without needing charity ?



Sure. Should it be mandated by government and funded via coercive taxation. No.


----------



## Blues Man (Sep 8, 2019)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > Do have a memory problem?
> ...



And what positions are those?

Gay marriage?  Oh yeah IDGAF if gays get married

Abortion?  IDAGF about women getting abortions

Iraq/Afghanistan?  Didn't think we should be there

So tell me what positions am I "shilling for"?

And I haven't worked for anyone since I was in my 20's but funny how I always manged to pay for my health insurance.

FAce it you are just a 5 year old whiner in an adult body


----------



## dblack (Sep 8, 2019)

Grumblenuts said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > We don't do equal rights in this country. Your "rights" depend on how much lobbying clout you can muster.
> ...


It's inevitable with the kind of "rights" you're promoting. The concept of equal rights only works with the kind of rights liberals like to call "negative" right (ie actual liberties, freedoms). When we try to declare goods and services to be "rights" as well, it's necessary for the government to parse them out _unequally_ by "need".

It wouldn't make sense, for example, for everyone to receive exactly the same amount of health care services. Everyone has different needs. So this puts the government in charge of deciding how to distribute he limited health care resources - unequally. And that decision will be, like every decision of government, a political one. The interest groups with the most lobbying clout will get the most attention. And those with little or now political power will be ignored.

Liberals think they'll be achieving a good thing by making it so that money isn't the deciding factor on what kind of health care a person gets. But all they're doing is swapping it out for political influence instead. Our health care will depend on politics rather than finances. I don't call that a win, especially with the utterly fucked up state of our politics.


----------



## Tommy Tainant (Sep 8, 2019)

dblack said:


> Grumblenuts said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...


You are creating bogus scenarios to deflect from a reality that is inhumane.


----------



## dblack (Sep 8, 2019)

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > That's just Really? How'd that go last time? If you're relying on an election to get your way, your "say" is approximately 1 in 100,000,000. If you make your own decisions, and aren't relying on government to make them for you, your vote is the only one that matters.
> ...



And you think that's never going to happen again??? I don't want my health care to depend on the Russians.



> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > If they've taken your money and provided you with nothing, sue them. I mean, that's not really what we're talking about here, but if your complaint is that insurance companies are committing fraud, I'm right there with you. Lock 'em up.
> ...



(Giving up already? You were doing so well. Okay, let's do insults! )



> Are you some kind of fucking retard?



No. That must be why we have such a hard time communicating! (rim shot, your turn....)



> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Dr. Trump will see you now.
> ...



It tells me that he, and most especially the Republicans in Congress, want control of health care every bit as much as the Democrats.


----------



## TroglocratsRdumb (Sep 8, 2019)

*People die waiting for their freed healthcare in England. 90 people per day*
Shocking NHS figures reveal 90 people die each day waiting for social care


----------



## dblack (Sep 8, 2019)

Tommy Tainant said:


> You are creating bogus scenarios to deflect from a reality that is inhumane.



If we nationalize health care, or even just health insurance, it will be a political football every. single. election. "Scare the seniors" will be a quaint memory. It will pale in the face of each party holding our health care for hostage. Each party will be shuffling promises to interest groups, targeting political enemies, and scaring sick people with claims that the other side is going to take away this or that.


----------



## Tommy Tainant (Sep 8, 2019)

dblack said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> > You are creating bogus scenarios to deflect from a reality that is inhumane.
> ...


But the status quo sees people die. That cant be right.


----------



## dblack (Sep 8, 2019)

Tommy Tainant said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Tommy Tainant said:
> ...



While I agree that there's much wrong with the status quo, people dying is par for the course. The death rate has stayed pretty consistent through history. One per person.


----------



## Tommy Tainant (Sep 8, 2019)

dblack said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...


Its not perfect over here but our life expectancy is better than yours, even Lebanon is better than yours.


----------



## Blues Man (Sep 8, 2019)

Tommy Tainant said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Tommy Tainant said:
> ...


And people don't die in the UK?

Tend to your own yard


----------



## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 8, 2019)

Tommy Tainant said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Tommy Tainant said:
> ...



Why do you care?


----------



## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 8, 2019)

Tommy Tainant said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Tommy Tainant said:
> ...



Only because we drive more cars and are fatter. Zero to do with healthcare. We are better at curing cancer and other tough diseases. You’re a loser and a troll.


----------



## Tommy Tainant (Sep 8, 2019)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...


I will still live longer than you because I have access to the NHS which cares for all of our needs, rich or poor.


----------



## Blues Man (Sep 8, 2019)

Tommy Tainant said:


> AzogtheDefiler said:
> 
> 
> > Tommy Tainant said:
> ...


If you look like your avatar pic I highly doubt that


----------



## AzogtheDefiler (Sep 8, 2019)

Tommy Tainant said:


> AzogtheDefiler said:
> 
> 
> > Tommy Tainant said:
> ...



Good for you. Why do you care then what happens here?


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 8, 2019)

Thanks for caring about others no matter where, Tommy. Empathy. Strange concept!


----------



## JoeB131 (Sep 8, 2019)

Mindful said:


> I never said ANY of that.



Okay, get back to me when you can keep track of your own argument.


----------



## JoeB131 (Sep 8, 2019)

dblack said:


> And you think that's never going to happen again??? I don't want my health care to depend on the Russians.



Okay, buddy, you keep telling yourself that...



dblack said:


> (Giving up already? You were doing so well. Okay, let's do insults! )



No, dude, if you think anyone can sue Cigna and win you are a fucking retard.

Nataline Sarkisyan's dad DID sue Cigna.  Cigna got a ruling in court that he had NO STANDING, because the contract was between his employer and Cigna, not him.  His little girl didn't get her liver transplant and she died. 

If this is "Freedom" by you, give me fucking tyranny....



dblack said:


> If we nationalize health care, or even just health insurance, it will be a political football every. single. election. "Scare the seniors" will be a quaint memory. It will pale in the face of each party holding our health care for hostage. Each party will be shuffling promises to interest groups, targeting political enemies, and scaring sick people with claims that the other side is going to take away this or that.



One more time. 

Rest of the word has nationalized health care. 

They spend less per person, they have better results.  

Honestly, I'm all for the politicians having open debates, rather than some guys in suits deciding, "Well, here's a new legal strategy we can use to deny people care AFTER they've paid their premiums".


----------



## Mindful (Sep 8, 2019)

JoeB131 said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> > I never said ANY of that.
> ...



Nonsense.


----------



## dblack (Sep 8, 2019)

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > And you think that's never going to happen again??? I don't want my health care to depend on the Russians.
> ...



Are you telling yourself something different? Regardless of whether it was because of the Russians, or half our country just went full retard - Trump happened. And he can happen again. As long as our nation is capable of electing morons, I want government to have as little say in my life as possible.



dblack said:


> If this is "Freedom" by you, give me fucking tyranny....



And that's probably what you'll get. You're certainly asking for it.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 8, 2019)

JoeB131 said:


> One more time.
> 
> Rest of the word has nationalized health care.
> 
> ...


All plainly true. Never rebutted. Never even acknowledged. Clearly not asking for "fucking tyranny"either. Quite the contrary.


----------



## JoeB131 (Sep 9, 2019)

dblack said:


> Are you telling yourself something different? Regardless of whether it was because of the Russians, or half our country just went full retard - Trump happened. And he can happen again. As long as our nation is capable of electing morons, I want government to have as little say in my life as possible.



Here's how you keep Trump from happening again. 


Get rid of the Electoral College, safeguard our voting process.  

Done.  

The fact that the government is still functioning as well as it does despite having a madman in charge, shows that the government works just fine.  A business with a nut like that in charge would just go bankrupt (as several of his businesses have when he was only half as crazy as he is now.) 



Grumblenuts said:


> All plainly true. Never rebutted. Never even acknowledged. Clearly not asking for "fucking tyranny"either. Quite the contrary.



you have to remember... DBlack is a Libertarian Child. 

They like living in civilization, they just don't like the work involved.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 9, 2019)

> *Libertarianism* in the *United States* is a movement promoting individual liberty and minimized government. ... *Libertarians* tend to embrace individual responsibility, oppose government bureaucracy and taxes, promote private charity, tolerate diverse lifestyles, support the free market, and defend civil liberties.


"embrace individual responsibility" - "anti-corporate" being the most obvious translation - but no, no, that can't be it! Makes too much sense! No, somehow "anti-govt"  is the apparent intent. As though other people were always arguing for more government than necessary. As though govt somehow inherently reduced individual responsibility. Govt actually being the only thing humans have ever cooked up to define and enforce limits upon general behavior. But no, see there's this island out there.. somewhere.. for each of us.. individually..  alone.. to stand upon.. where we just need to pull up our bootstraps.. make up our own rules.. self-regulate.. "take responsibility".. credit only ourselves.. become "self-made" like BluesMan.. legends.. completely in our own minds!..

"oppose government bureaucracy and taxes" - yes, as opposed to the throngs out there constantly shouting "MORE RED TAPE AND FEES!"

"promote private charity" - yes, let those with the most decide who, if anyone, to trickle down upon.. with no particular concern or knowledge.. and for a tax deduction.

"tolerate diverse lifestyles" - now there's at least something!

"support the free market" - as opposed to "fair" obviously.. just more advantage the Haves, fuck the Have Nots..

"and defend civil liberties." - except any right to minimal healthcare apparently.. meaning a right "against" people dying from common healthcare neglect by the way, dblack.


----------



## dblack (Sep 9, 2019)

> "and defend civil liberties." - except any right to minimal healthcare apparently.. meaning a right "against" people dying from common healthcare neglect by the way, dblack.



WTF does that even mean? Do you know the definition "civil liberty"??? Please go read it. Then maybe you can rephrase your post in a way that makes sense.


----------



## dblack (Sep 9, 2019)

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Are you telling yourself something different? Regardless of whether it was because of the Russians, or half our country just went full retard - Trump happened. And he can happen again. As long as our nation is capable of electing morons, I want government to have as little say in my life as possible.
> ...



You missed the point. Again. The point is, Trump WILL happen again. It's inevitable.

I'm often stunned by the blind assumption of liberals, when they clamor for more state power, that democracy will never let them down, that voters will alway elect someone who agrees with them and shares their values, that government will always be on their side.



> Grumblenuts said:
> 
> 
> > All plainly true. Never rebutted. Never even acknowledged. Clearly not asking for "fucking tyranny"either. Quite the contrary.
> ...



Ahh.. petty insults. Again. Your go-to end game. At least you're smart enough to know when to fold.


----------



## Harry Dresden (Sep 9, 2019)

Grumblenuts said:


> Harry Dresden said:
> 
> 
> > Grumblenuts said:
> ...


if thats what they told you,go with it......an interview with clive after leaving the band he said much of what was said about the split was "hogwash"....he and harris did not get along...


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 9, 2019)

dblack said:


> > "and defend civil liberties." - except any right to minimal healthcare apparently.. meaning a right "against" people dying from common healthcare neglect by the way, dblack.
> 
> 
> 
> WTF does that even mean? Do you know the definition "civil liberty"??? Please go read it. Then maybe you can rephrase your post in a way that makes sense.


Here, you read it:


> *Civil liberties* or *personal freedoms* are personal guarantees and freedoms that the government cannot abridge, either by law or by judicial interpretation, without due process. Though the scope of the term differs between countries, civil liberties may include the freedom of conscience, freedom of press, freedom of religion, freedom of expression, freedom of assembly, the right to security and liberty, freedom of speech, the right to privacy, the right to equal treatment under the law and due process, the right to a fair trial, and the right to life. Other civil liberties include the right to own property, the right to defend oneself, and *the right to bodily integrity*


See, I like things to make sense. For example, the phrase "rights to bodily integrity" directly implies rights to sound health. However, I have noticed other's mileage tending to bias toward nonsense at least once or twice. That is not my fault.


> *United States[edit]*
> The United States Constitution does not contain any specific provisions regarding the rights one has with respect to his or her physical body or the specific extent to which the state can act upon bodies.[12] However, the U.S. Supreme Court has upheld right to privacy, which, as articulated by Julie Lane, often protects rights to bodily integrity. In _Griswold v. Connecticut_ (1965) the Court supported women's rights to obtain birth control (and thus, retain reproductive autonomy) without marital consent. Similarly, a woman's right to privacy in obtaining abortions was protected by _Roe v. Wade_ (1973). In _McFall v. Shimp_ (1978), a Pennsylvania court ruled that a person cannot be forced to donate bone marrow, even if such a donation would save another person's life.
> 
> Conversely, the Supreme Court has also protected the right of governmental entities to infringe upon bodily integrity. Examples include laws prohibiting the use of drugs, laws prohibiting euthanasia, laws requiring the use of seatbelts and helmets, strip searches of prisoners, and forced blood tests.[13]


Now rephrase whatever TF you want.  Just try to say something substantive that makes sense.


----------



## dblack (Sep 9, 2019)

Grumblenuts said:


> Here, you read it:
> 
> 
> > *Civil liberties* or *personal freedoms* are personal guarantees and freedoms that the government cannot abridge, either by law or by judicial interpretation, without due process. Though the scope of the term differs between countries, civil liberties may include the freedom of conscience, freedom of press, freedom of religion, freedom of expression, freedom of assembly, the right to security and liberty, freedom of speech, the right to privacy, the right to equal treatment under the law and due process, the right to a fair trial, and the right to life. Other civil liberties include the right to own property, the right to defend oneself, and *the right to bodily integrity*
> ...


The definition you cited confirms it. Civil liberties have nothing to do with providing someone with goods and services.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 9, 2019)

dblack said:


> Civil liberties have nothing to do with providing someone with goods and services.


See, I knew you could do it! Problem is it doesn't say that. In fact, many interpretations do indeed have govt ending up "providing someone with goods and services."

People are always saying "First, you gotta have your health", right? "Take care of yourself. Can't do anything for anyone else otherwise." Most obvious unspoken meaning: You can't work if you're "sick". Can't pay taxes if you can't work. Transitive: Can't pay taxes if you're sick. Now, would the balance of taxpayers(citizens) want you to keep paying your taxes? There's your true test. Yes? Or would they prefer you stayed sick so that either someone else's personal freedoms were being infringed upon to care for your sorry ass or you simply died from minimal healthcare neglect? There will end up being govt expenses either way and personal freedoms will be infringed upon. Go figure.

Where govt requires a "forced blood test" on a govt prisoner or employee, who "provides" that?


----------



## dblack (Sep 9, 2019)

Grumblenuts said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Civil liberties have nothing to do with providing someone with goods and services.
> ...



Yes. Those are incorrect "interpretations".



> People are always saying "First, you gotta have your health", right? "Take care of yourself. Can't do anything for anyone else otherwise." Most obvious unspoken meaning: You can't work if you're "sick". Can't pay taxes if you can't work. Transitive: Can't pay taxes if you're sick. Now, would the balance of taxpayers(citizens) want you to keep paying your taxes? There's your true test. Yes? Or would they prefer you stayed sick so that either someone else's personal freedoms were being infringed upon to care for your sorry ass or you simply died from minimal healthcare neglect? There will end up being govt expenses either way and personal freedoms will be infringed upon. Go figure.
> 
> Where govt requires a "forced blood test" on a govt prisoner or employee, who "provides" that?



I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Civil liberties aren't services provided by government. They are freedoms that government can't violate without a damned good reason.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 9, 2019)

dblack said:


> Those are incorrect "interpretations".


Yeah, according to you. Big surprise.


dblack said:


> Civil liberties aren't services provided by government. They are freedoms that government can't violate without a damned good reason.


And, of course, guaranteeing minimal healthcare (i.e. life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness) is no "damned good reason" _to you_. Again, big surprise.


----------



## dblack (Sep 9, 2019)

Grumblenuts said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Those are incorrect "interpretations".
> ...



That's not the point. It might be reason enough. I don't think so, but the only point I'm making here is that health care isn't a civil liberty. You're mixing up your terminology and it makes your arguments difficult to follow.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 9, 2019)

dblack said:


> You're mixing up your terminology


And you've just been repeating yourself. Since you clearly don't think guaranteeing a minimal standard of healthcare should be considered a civil liberty (still no surprise), then what would you call it? Remember to be excruciatingly explicit so as not to mix up your terminology!

Note: In case you're thinking "entitlement" here's Google's primary definition:


> en·ti·tle·ment
> _noun_
> 
> the fact of *having a right* to something.


Now, since "the people" have a constitutionally guaranteed *right* to "assemble, and to petition the government for a redress".. perhaps "redress" is the term you're really after?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Sep 9, 2019)

Grumblenuts said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > You're mixing up your terminology
> ...



*Since you clearly don't think guaranteeing a minimal standard of healthcare should be considered a civil liberty (still no surprise), then what would you call it? *

Your personal responsibility.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 9, 2019)

Oh, I agree. Definitely your responsibility to petition govt like crazy.. for a guaranteed minimum standard of healthcare like the rest of the developed world enjoys. Especially those self-identifying as "patriot."


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Sep 9, 2019)

Grumblenuts said:


> Oh, I agree. Definitely your responsibility to petition govt like crazy.. for a guaranteed minimum standard of healthcare like the rest of the developed world enjoys. Especially those self-identifying as "patriot."



Hasn't big government fucked up healthcare enough already?


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 9, 2019)

For the billionaires? No.


----------



## dblack (Sep 9, 2019)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> Grumblenuts said:
> 
> 
> > Oh, I agree. Definitely your responsibility to petition govt like crazy.. for a guaranteed minimum standard of healthcare like the rest of the developed world enjoys. Especially those self-identifying as "patriot."
> ...



Not yet. They have big plans!


----------



## dblack (Sep 9, 2019)

:


Grumblenuts said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > You're mixing up your terminology
> ...



It's not a question of how we "consider" it. It's just  a question of the definition. You might consider a dog a horse, but that doesn't mean it's a matter of opinion. I just means you're wrong.

A civil liberty is a protected freedom. Most especially, it's a freedom protected from government interference. This is important to me because I think what you're engaged in is a deliberate attempt to equivocate.  A lie:

It's well established that government has a responsibility to protect our civil liberties. It's _not_ established that government has the responsibility to provide us with health care, nor the power to do so. By pretending that health care is a civil liberty you're hoping to smuggle it in without scrutiny. Shame on you.


----------



## dblack (Sep 9, 2019)

Grumblenuts said:


> Oh, I agree. Definitely your responsibility to petition govt like crazy.. for a guaranteed minimum standard of healthcare like the rest of the developed world enjoys. Especially those self-identifying as "patriot."



Is that really how you see things? Do you think it's a civic duty to beg government for free shit?


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 9, 2019)

So now you really trot out your true colors, eh?
You'd beg for free shit? LOL

Well, nice talkin' to ya for a bit anyways, young fella. Holler when you grow up.


> "My loyalty isn't to a nation, or a government. It's to my country, my society, my community. You're indulging the same conceit as the liberals - you're identifying the nation state as the ultimate representation of the people. I think that's a mistake. It's the core mistake of nationalism."


Huh? You're mixing up your terminology and it makes your arguments difficult to follow. This is important to me because I think what you're engaged in is a deliberate attempt to equivocate. A lie. Is that really how you see things? Do you think it's a civic duty to beg government for free shit?


----------



## dblack (Sep 9, 2019)

Grumblenuts said:


> So now you really trot out your true colors, eh?
> You'd beg for free shit? LOL
> 
> Well, nice talkin' to ya for a bit anyways, young fella. Holler when you grow up.
> ...



Hmm... I have no idea what you're trying to say here. It seems like I hurt your feelings. Sorry. It's nothing personal. I just don't respect slight-of-hand arguments. Nationalizing health care has nothing to do with protecting civil liberties.


----------



## JoeB131 (Sep 10, 2019)

dblack said:


> You missed the point. Again. The point is, Trump WILL happen again. It's inevitable.
> 
> I'm often stunned by the blind assumption of liberals, when they clamor for more state power, that democracy will never let them down, that voters will alway elect someone who agrees with them and shares their values, that government will always be on their side.



Nobody said that.  Here's what I did say. 

Like roads? I do. I love roads.  Guess what, we STILL have roads no matter who is in the White House, because we've all agreed that roads are something the government should do.  True, we might have disagreements on where the road should go.  

WHEN you get past the Libertarian and Insurance Company bullshit, most Americans think that the government should provide health care and everyone should have access to it.  How we get there is the question that we could have disagreements on.  The problem has been, the Democrats have been too willing to comprimise with big insurance and the Republicans.  



dblack said:


> Ahh.. petty insults. Again. Your go-to end game. At least you're smart enough to know when to fold.



I smart enough to know you have to give a child a time out... 

Go sit in the corner, the grown ups are talking.


----------



## JoeB131 (Sep 10, 2019)

dblack said:


> It's well established that government has a responsibility to protect our civil liberties. It's _not_ established that government has the responsibility to provide us with health care, nor the power to do so. By pretending that health care is a civil liberty you're hoping to smuggle it in without scrutiny. Shame on you.



Again, when a Libertarian Child talks about "Liberty", it usually means the ability of the rich to abuse the rest of us. 

It was so great that Ed Hanaway got a NINE FIGURE retirement program, and that Nataline Sarkisyan had the"Freedom" to die of a treatable disease after her dad paid for insurance for years.  "Freeeeedom!"


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 10, 2019)

Nah, Joe. He's right. We just want "free shit" like emancipation, women's suffrage, death with dignity, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid... Hell, the list never ends. Ya know, it's bad enough that "Amendments" had to be tacked on to begin with just to appease us fucking liberal types. A so-called "Bill of Rights".. Pshaww! Who ever needed that? The original intent was simply for the white males to continue grabbing up and plundering the entire "New World" until all the easily accessible "free shit" was officially claimed by them. Personally. Their private property. Then NO MORE FREE SHIT SUCKAS AND STAY TF OFF MY LAWN!.. Ah, the good old days.. When men were men..


----------



## dblack (Sep 10, 2019)

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Ahh.. petty insults. Again. Your go-to end game. At least you're smart enough to know when to fold.
> ...



If that's all you got, I understand. Seems like I touched a nerve.


----------



## dudmuck (Sep 10, 2019)

dblack said:


> :
> 
> 
> Grumblenuts said:
> ...


oh yea...


----------



## dblack (Sep 10, 2019)

dudmuck said:


> oh yea...



And you want to place your health in the hands of Trump instead?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Sep 10, 2019)

dudmuck said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > :
> ...



Exactly!
That's why Americans are running up to Canada for healthcare and no foreigners 
ever come to the US for healthcare. DURR


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 10, 2019)

Allow me to highlight the actual truth of what transpired for a moment before it gets entirely lost in the ongoing silliness:


dblack said:


> :
> 
> 
> Grumblenuts said:
> ...


Now THAT's pure 100% Grade "A" deflection there, folks. So dishonest it's truly farcical!


----------



## dblack (Sep 10, 2019)

Grumblenuts said:


> Allow me to highlight the actual truth of what transpired for a moment before it gets entirely lost in the ongoing silliness:
> 
> 
> dblack said:
> ...



What the fuck are you talking about now???


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 10, 2019)

dblack said:


> What the fuck are you talking about now???


*What (the fuck) would you call it???*
(If I could make it any bigger or bolder I would!)


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Sep 10, 2019)

Tommy Tainant said:


> Click here to support Help Devin Walk & Conquer Surfer's Myelopathy organized by Jim Morris
> 
> *The extended family has rallied around Devin and the fight for his recovery is in full swing.  We set up this GoFundMe page as a communication platform to ensure we keep all of Devin's family and friends up-to-date on his status, progress and recovery.  As you can imagine, the Gildners will incur significant medical bills, additional living expenses and extensive travel costs over the coming months and potentially years.  Any donations towards Devin's recovery and his family's needs are greatly appreciated.  If you are unable to donate, prayers and good vibes are just as important! *
> 
> In the developed world this young man would just have to focus on getting well.



I guess "developed world" doesn't include the UK, then, since THERE he'd have to focus on praying he doesn't die before the doctors even see him.


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Sep 10, 2019)

SweetSue92 said:


> Tommy Tainant said:
> 
> 
> > I see that you havent chipped in to help this youngster Sue. Charity has its limits I suppose.
> ...



If science could manage that, I'd start Taint's GoFundMe for it myself.


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Sep 10, 2019)

Tommy Tainant said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> > Tommy Tainant said:
> ...



It never stops amusing me to watch Taint attempt to shame someone who views him as something stuck to the bottom of her shoe.  This is what socialism gets you: useless, brainless mouthbreathers like Taint mistakenly believing that existing is an accomplishment.


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Sep 10, 2019)

Tommy Tainant said:


> SweetSue92 said:
> 
> 
> > Tommy Tainant said:
> ...



Only a leftist imbecile - but I repeat myself - could be dumb enough to think "hypocrite" means "someone who doesn't practice what _*I* _preach".


----------



## dblack (Sep 10, 2019)

Grumblenuts said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > What the fuck are you talking about now???
> ...



Huh? So I guess the post you're freaking out about was this?


> Since you clearly don't think guaranteeing a minimal standard of healthcare should be considered a civil liberty (still no surprise), then what would you call it?



I assumed the question was rhetorical. I don't really care what you call it. It's just not a civil liberty. But to answer your question, so you don't wet yourself, I guess I'd call it "guaranteeing a minimal standard of healthcare".


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 10, 2019)

dblack said:


> I don't really care what you call it.


That's clearly all you've been struggling to say. You don't care about others. You and yours. That's it. Again, no surprise.


----------



## dblack (Sep 10, 2019)

Grumblenuts said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > I don't really care what you call it.
> ...



Editing someone's quote is strictly against board rules. I don't really care, but you should really calm down.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 10, 2019)

Oh, chill. Obviously adding strikethrough is not an issue, derp. What did you imagine it was for? How do categorize Medicare if not a civil right or liberty?


----------



## dblack (Sep 10, 2019)

Grumblenuts said:


> Oh, chill. Obviously adding strikethrough is not an issue, derp. What did you imagine it was for? How do categorize Medicare if not a civil right or liberty?



Catagorize it however you like. I dunno, "government program"?


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 11, 2019)

dblack said:


> Catagorize it however you like.


Okay then, let's call it a civil rights program implemented in 1965 to protect the elderly as a class from pointless impoverishment and societal abuse. A Medicare for All program would then protect all in general from being further plundered by the billionaires. Of course, as with Social Security and Medicare, the billionaires themselves would be protected, thus leaving nothing for them to cry about. The reason these programs work is because they save "the people" (i.e. the govt) a ton of money in the long run since the billionaires, left to their own devices, always end up stealing significantly from govt revenue.


----------



## JoeB131 (Sep 11, 2019)

dblack said:


> And you want to place your health in the hands of Trump instead?



Yup, just like he's in charge of the military, building the roads, and all the other things you have with civilization.  

Frankly, that it took 240 years to get to a crazy person is kind of amazing in and of itself, but the system functions pretty well even with a crazy person in charge. 

Now go away, little boy, the grownups are talking.


----------



## dblack (Sep 11, 2019)

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > And you want to place your health in the hands of Trump instead?
> ...



Not everything. Only the things authorized by the Constitution. See, unlike you, the founders didn't want government running every goddamned thing.



> Now go away, little boy, the grownups are talking.



Yes, yes. Posturing is all you got. Go with that.


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Sep 11, 2019)

Grumblenuts said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Catagorize it however you like.
> ...



*Okay then, let's call it a civil rights program implemented in 1965 to protect the elderly as a class from pointless impoverishment and societal abuse. *

My civil rights depend on the government taking 2.9% of my paycheck? LOL!


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 11, 2019)

Toddsterpatriot said:


> My civil rights depend on the government taking 2.9% of my paycheck? LOL!


Yep, they hold it for ya 'cause they know you'll just gamble it away or blow it all on booz otherwise. HAHAHA!


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Sep 11, 2019)

Grumblenuts said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > My civil rights depend on the government taking 2.9% of my paycheck? LOL!
> ...



Which other civil rights require government to hold some of my money?


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 11, 2019)

Depends.. How much do you drink anyway?


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Sep 11, 2019)

Grumblenuts said:


> How much do you drink anyway?



I didn't want to discuss Hillary's civil rights, but ok....


----------



## dblack (Sep 11, 2019)

Grumblenuts said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Catagorize it however you like.
> ...



Oh good grief. Medicare has nothing to do with civil rights. Seriously, if the only way you can sell your ideas is by torturing the English language with constant equivocation - that should tell you something about what you're trying to sell.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 11, 2019)

dblack said:


> Grumblenuts said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



Ah, so you said "Catagorize it however you like." and now your panties are all atwist and you're pretending to give a fuck. I think all can clearly see who the used car salesman is here. Never grow up. Please!


----------



## dblack (Sep 11, 2019)

Grumblenuts said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Grumblenuts said:
> ...



Can you make arguments without all the vitriol, or is that the point?

Anyway, categorize it however you like for your own uses, but you said "let's call it a civil rights program". I won't be calling it that, because it's not. Clearly though, you're desperate to rename it something. Why?


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 11, 2019)

dblack said:


> but you said "let's call it a civil rights program". I won't be calling it that


Fine. Don't have a cow!

Meanwhile, from that FindLaw link you somehow glossed over..


> Civil rights are an expansive and significant set of rights that are designed to protect individuals from unfair treatment; they are the rights of individuals to receive equal treatment (and to be free from unfair treatment or discrimination) in a number of settings -- including education, employment, housing, public accommodations, and more -- and based on certain legally-protected characteristics.



That's what they are. Legally. Whatever else you may imagine them to be (or not to be) is no doubt comical, but neither here nor there.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 11, 2019)

> progressive and conservative health law experts alike say the legal basis for Medicare for All has already been laid by vast government health insurance programs like Medicare itself, the nearly 55-year-old program covering 60 million seniors. And the federal government’s power to regulate private insurers and health care providers under a host of other programs has been supported by the courts.
> _{..snip..}_
> Jonathan Adler, a legal professor at Case Western University who helped mount the unsuccessful challenge to nationwide ACA insurance subsidies in the 2015 Supreme Court case _King v. Burwell,_ largely agrees that Medicare for All is on solid legal footing.
> 
> “I think *there are far fewer constitutional issues with Medicare for All* than there were with the ACA, largely because insofar as Medicare for some is constitutional, Medicare for all would be as well,” he said.


----------



## dblack (Sep 11, 2019)

Grumblenuts said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > but you said "let's call it a civil rights program". I won't be calling it that
> ...



Seriously though, why all the word games? What are you trying to paper over?


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 11, 2019)

dblack said:


> why all the word games?


Sorry, I keep forgetting, .. huh.. To you and your ilk, all this would appear just some game, and, haha, your comments serious.. LOL. Tell ya what, from now on please feel free to just ignore all such topics. Enjoy that ignorant bliss while you still can.. It's okay. Us adults will somehow continue to manage..


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 11, 2019)

dblack said:


> Seriously though,


"Failed by US Healthcare"
Bwahahahaaa! Fuck that stupid shit!
"People suffering and dying ..." 
Keep it TF off my lawn!
Bwahahahaaa!
Admit it. You bums just want free shit!
Bwahahahaaa!


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Sep 11, 2019)

Grumblenuts said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Catagorize it however you like.
> ...



Let's don't.  I'm very tired of people like you blithering on about, "I want this, therefore it's a right."  It's not.


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Sep 11, 2019)

Grumblenuts said:


> Toddsterpatriot said:
> 
> 
> > My civil rights depend on the government taking 2.9% of my paycheck? LOL!
> ...



So now you're saying you have a "civil right" to have the government assume you're a dissolute, immature moron who needs to be handheld and spoonfed like a child your whole life?


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Sep 11, 2019)

Grumblenuts said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > but you said "let's call it a civil rights program". I won't be calling it that
> ...



Could you please actually READ your own quote and then explain to us how that coincides with YOUR statement of why Medicare for All - or Social Security, for that matter - is a "civil right"?


----------



## dblack (Sep 11, 2019)

Cecilie1200 said:


> Grumblenuts said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



I do think that's how they see they concept of rights - stuff they want government to provide for them.


----------



## dblack (Sep 11, 2019)

Grumblenuts said:


> > progressive and conservative health law experts alike say the legal basis for Medicare for All has already been laid by vast government health insurance programs like Medicare itself...



And this is exactly why sane people opposed Medicare in the first place (and still do). They knew it would be used as a precedent for nationalizing health care entirely. Of course their concerns were dismissed as a "slippery slope fallacy". But your post proves they were right.


----------



## MeBelle (Sep 11, 2019)

Grumblenuts said:


> See, I like things to make sense. For example, the phrase *"rights to bodily integrity" *directly implies rights to sound health.




*"rights to bodily integrity" *

Doesn't mean what you think it means - and there is no room for interpretation

_Bodily integrity is the inviolability of the physical body and emphasizes the importance of *personal autonomy *and the *self-determination of human beings over their own bodies.* In the field of human rights, violation of the bodily integrity of another is regarded as an unethical infringement, intrusive, and possibly criminal_

meaning - personal responsibility 

Bodily integrity - Wikipedia


----------



## JoeB131 (Sep 12, 2019)

dblack said:


> Not everything. Only the things authorized by the Constitution. See, unlike you, the founders didn't want government running every goddamned thing.



again, they raped their slaves and shit in chamber pots... I'm not really keen on following their example. 



Toddsterpatriot said:


> *Okay then, let's call it a civil rights program implemented in 1965 to protect the elderly as a class from pointless impoverishment and societal abuse. *
> 
> My civil rights depend on the government taking 2.9% of my paycheck? LOL!



So you'd rather die at 66 of a treatable disease because no one would insure you or hire you at that age?


----------



## sparky (Sep 12, 2019)

If i may '_puff chest_' , i've 3 decades of _front line _experience.

I've seen a _lot_ of humanity_ loose it all_ due to an illness

_any _system has it's flaws , and ours is_ capitalist_ medicine

a _capitalist_ system has only _capitalist_ remedies

get your head around that

~S~


----------



## Toddsterpatriot (Sep 12, 2019)

JoeB131 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Not everything. Only the things authorized by the Constitution. See, unlike you, the founders didn't want government running every goddamned thing.
> ...



What I'd "rather" is what makes something a civil right? LOL!


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 12, 2019)

Cecilie1200 said:


> Could you please actually READ your own quote and then explain to us how that coincides with YOUR statement of why Medicare for All - or Social Security, for that matter - is a "civil right"?


You lie with gusto yet remain dull. I've made the parallels plain. Next time you feel entitled to piss all over my stuff kindly piss off instead and seek professional help with whatever makes you easily the most miserable person on this board.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 12, 2019)

MeBelle said:


> *"rights to bodily integrity" *
> 
> Doesn't mean what you think it means - and there is no room for interpretation


Interpreting "bodily integrity" as "sound health" _makes_ more intuitive _sense_ than its actual definition. That was the point. Duh!
Ymmv. Good for you.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 12, 2019)

sparky said:


> If i may '_puff chest_' , i've 3 decades of _front line _experience.
> 
> I've seen a _lot_ of humanity_ loose it all_ due to an illness


Please puff it loud and often. These corporate profit uber alles shits need constant reality reminding.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 12, 2019)

> 66.5 percent of all bankruptcies were tied to medical issues —either because of high costs for care or time out of work. An estimated 530,000 families turn to bankruptcy each year because of medical issues and bills, the research found.


That's what our system does for people who are otherwise willing and able to work _*and already have jobs*_.


> The number of debtors who cited medical issues as a contributing reason for their bankruptcy actually increased slightly after the law’s implementation — 67.5 percent in the three years following the law’s adoption versus 65.5 percent prior.
> 
> The culprit for the lack of improvement was inadequate health-care insurance, according to a co-author of the research, Dr. David U. Himmelstein, a distinguished professor at Hunter College and founder of advocacy group Physicians for a National Health Program.
> 
> “Unless you’re Jeff Bezos, people don’t have very good alternatives, because the insurance that is available and affordable to people, or that most people’s employers provide them, is *not adequate protection if you’re sick*,” Himmelstein said.


----------



## Cecilie1200 (Sep 12, 2019)

Grumblenuts said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> > Could you please actually READ your own quote and then explain to us how that coincides with YOUR statement of why Medicare for All - or Social Security, for that matter - is a "civil right"?
> ...



I don't lie, EVER, and I don't tolerate leftist morons who think they can buy moral standards with other people's money calling me a liar simply because they don't like hearing the truth.

The only thing you've made plain is that your reading comprehension is equally as bad as your thinking capabilities.  You've "made the parallels plain" only in the sense that you've made it plain that you want there to be parallels, and thus will believe that without reference to facts, logic, or your own fucking quote.

Also, here's a little newsflash about the real world outside your leftist daycare where they applaud your splendor in breathing in and out:  I will feel entitled to piss on every bullshit word that emanates from your fucking keyboard if it amuses me, because I AM entitled to do so.  It's called "free speech", shitbird, and this is me ALSO pissing on your juvenile attempts to order me to let you talk without opposition.  If you can't handle that, it is entirely your choice to run away crying, rant and rave in impotent fury, or man the fuck up.


----------



## sparky (Sep 12, 2019)

Grumblenuts said:


> sparky said:
> 
> 
> > If i may '_puff chest_' , i've 3 decades of _front line _experience.
> ...


i was one of their minions Grumble.....





~S~


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 12, 2019)

Learning from our mistakes exposes us as human, sparky. Repeating them ad nauseum only reveals robotic insanity.


----------



## Mindful (Sep 22, 2019)




----------



## JoeB131 (Sep 22, 2019)

Mindful said:


> View attachment 280455



You are right. He should do what American Rich people do.  "I got mine, Fuck You!"  

How dare he insist that average working folks have access to the same medicare care he does!


----------



## Mindful (Sep 22, 2019)

JoeB131 said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> > View attachment 280455
> ...



Calm down, dear.


----------



## JoeB131 (Sep 22, 2019)

Mindful said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > Mindful said:
> ...



Yes, I should be totally calm about poor children suffering treatable diseases because they are poor. That's what Jesus would have wanted. 

Conservatism, at the end of the day, is an argument for selfishness.


----------



## Mindful (Sep 22, 2019)

JoeB131 said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...



Have you been to church today?


----------



## JoeB131 (Sep 22, 2019)

Mindful said:


> Have you been to church today?



Nope, I have better things to do than pray to an imaginary sky pixie.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 22, 2019)

Mindfully retweeted a nationalistic pap smear with aplomb, Joe considers whether he's been matronized..


----------



## Mindful (Sep 22, 2019)

Grumblenuts said:


> Mindfully retweeted a nationalistic pap smear with aplomb, Joe considers whether he's been matronized..



I'm not an American. It was just a comment.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 22, 2019)

Indeed, a Mindful one no less.


----------



## Mindful (Sep 22, 2019)

Grumblenuts said:


> Indeed, a Mindful one no less.



You trying to be existential?


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 22, 2019)

Mindful said:


> Grumblenuts said:
> 
> 
> > Indeed, a Mindful one no less.
> ...





> *We’re All Mindful*
> We all have the innate ability to be present, composed, and to pause before we overreact to the challenges of our busy lives—and that’s the ground of mindfulness. With some guidance and training, mindfulness can develop into a way of living that brings greater focus and effectiveness as well as kindness and caring into everything we do. Both science and experience demonstrate how being mindful brings positive benefits for our health, happiness, work, and relationships.


----------



## Death Angel (Sep 22, 2019)

Tommy Tainant said:


> In the developed world this young man would just have to focus on getting well.


You're admitting the UK is no longer part of the developing world?

NHS operation waiting lists reach 10-year high at 4.3m patients

That's  4.3 MILLION in a place of 66 million!


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 22, 2019)

Being on a waiting list would still beat having unaffordable healthcare any day.
As an American living in the UK, here are 5 ways Britain's National Health Service is superior to US healthcare


----------



## Mindful (Sep 22, 2019)

Grumblenuts said:


> Being on a waiting list would still beat having unaffordable healthcare any day.
> As an American living in the UK, here are 5 ways Britain's National Health Service is superior to US healthcare



The thing is: some treatments are just not available in the UK.

And desperate people raise the money to go to the US for the appropriate medical procedures.


----------



## sparky (Sep 22, 2019)

Medical tourism occurs for many reasons Mindful









~S~


----------



## Mindful (Sep 22, 2019)

sparky said:


> Medical tourism occurs for many reasons Mindful
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not for those Brits it doesn't. Usually a rare condition that only one or two American doctors will undertake.

 Medical tourism rocks in Germany where I live. Wealthy Kuwaities coming over for surgery. Where there's a wealth of doctors on hand.


----------



## Mindful (Sep 22, 2019)

The NHS, for all it's noble aspirations, is financially unsustainable. The emergency room, for instance; people go in there when there's nothing really wrong with them. For instance, brawling drunk  Brits on a Saturday night up and down the country.

The $20 co pay just to see the doctor in America, makes me think twice about whether I really need to go.


----------



## Grumblenuts (Sep 22, 2019)

What conditions and treatments aren't covered on the NHS – and how much do they cost?


----------



## Mindful (Sep 22, 2019)

Grumblenuts said:


> What conditions and treatments aren't covered on the NHS – and how much do they cost?



It's not really about that. I was talking about really rare conditions, that the US is _able _ to treat.

And the waiting lists. Many Britons, who are not wealthy by any means, pay for themselves to get hip replacement surgery in India, it can take up to a year for one in England.


----------



## JoeB131 (Sep 22, 2019)

Mindful said:


> The NHS, for all it's noble aspirations, is financially unsustainable. The emergency room, for instance; people go in there when there's nothing really wrong with them. For instance, brawling drunk  Brits on a Saturday night up and down the country.
> 
> The $20 co pay just to see the doctor in America, makes me think twice about whether I really need to go.



And if you are so poor that $20.00 makes you delay until the condition gets a lot worse?


----------



## Mindful (Sep 22, 2019)

JoeB131 said:


> Mindful said:
> 
> 
> > The NHS, for all it's noble aspirations, is financially unsustainable. The emergency room, for instance; people go in there when there's nothing really wrong with them. For instance, brawling drunk  Brits on a Saturday night up and down the country.
> ...



I don't know.

Make some chicken soup?

Could I get food stamps for a chicken?


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## Questioner (Jan 12, 2020)

Tommy Tainant said:


> Click here to support Help Devin Walk & Conquer Surfer's Myelopathy organized by Jim Morris
> 
> *The extended family has rallied around Devin and the fight for his recovery is in full swing.  We set up this GoFundMe page as a communication platform to ensure we keep all of Devin's family and friends up-to-date on his status, progress and recovery.  As you can imagine, the Gildners will incur significant medical bills, additional living expenses and extensive travel costs over the coming months and potentially years.  Any donations towards Devin's recovery and his family's needs are greatly appreciated.  If you are unable to donate, prayers and good vibes are just as important! *
> 
> In the developed world this young man would just have to focus on getting well.


Given, how in practice the US government (likely state and federal, though I haven't taken the time to do a meticulous case of their accounting) actually spends taxpayer money, and the fact that people already using service funded in whole or part by taxpayer money (false "public/private" dichotomies be damned), at this point I would have no problem with publicly funded heathcare plans.

Most negative reactions, as per above are just purely emotional reactions, or general resistances to change, and not worthy of serious or rational consideration, by individuals not comfortable with going full "anarchist" and disbanding the services they are already depending on, or even outright advocating government spending in certain areas (Constitutional or philosophical arguments be damned) but not in others, solely for childish or emotional reasons which are laughable at best).

(As far as serious constitutional arguments, in theory it would probably be first in the domain of the individual states, rather than the Federal government, unless the Constitution is amended, however in practice, in regards to how money is actually and currently being spent, the above still applies).


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## Questioner (Jan 12, 2020)

In regards to conditions which are primarily or solely self-educed, such as obesity or cancers caused by tobacco smoking, I would be tempted to not have them covered.


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