# Sen Joe McCarthy: American Patriot and Hero



## CrusaderFrank

I'm only about 35 pages into M. Stanton Evans "Blacklisted by History" and I am livid at the utter gall and tremendous scope of the Leftist outright lies.

Did you know that many of the original documents that McCarthy based his campaign on are missing? 

As recently as March 1993 someone, we don't know who







went into the US National Archives and took the Klaus Memo, a 1946 memo by a State Department official Samuel Klaus implicating Alger Hiss and many others as Communist spies?


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## elvis

I thought Nixon busted Hiss.


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## Modbert

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1xxzNjhDEk]YouTube - Murrow:McCarthy March 9, 1954[/ame]


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## CrusaderFrank

Think of it, what was supposed to be the last copy of the Memo that was one of the primary motivators for McCarthy to ask about Communist infiltration of US State was *REMOVED FROM THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES IN MARCH 1993.*

Let's just chew on that for a minute.


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## L.K.Eder

starting shit, then leaving the room to booze is the sign of an american patriot and hero.


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## Oddball

Just ask American patriot and hero, Ted Kennedy.


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## Modbert

Oddball said:


> Just ask American patriot and hero, Ted Kennedy.



Do you agree with Frank's OP title?


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## elvis

Oddball said:


> Just ask American patriot and hero, Ted Kennedy.



well, his brother worked for McCarthy.  so kind of fits.


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## L.K.Eder

Oddball said:


> Just ask American patriot and hero, Ted Kennedy.



was ted kennedy praised for his driving around little new england islands?

your analogy sucks.

now try robert byrd, surely you will find a way to deflect to that guy.


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## Oddball

Ted Kennedy was praised for nothing more than being a Kennedy.

You wanna bust on District of Criminals legislators for being boozers, we're going to have an all-day sucker going on here.


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## manifold

I wonder how Frank Zappa felt about Senator McCarthy?


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## L.K.Eder

Oddball said:


> Ted Kennedy was praised for nothing more than being a Kennedy.
> 
> You wanna bust on District of Criminals legislators for being boozers, we're going to have an all-day sucker going on here.



you are a blind asshole. do you think you can shine by constantly playing the jaded partisan cynic? you can't. only the partisan part is getting through.

ted kennedy did say this, if y'all had listened to this guy, instead of following the leader, you'd not complain about deaths and debt and strategies etc.

oh, and thank you  for no longer claiming the big lebowski character, that was odd.


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## L.K.Eder

manifold said:


> I wonder how Frank Zappa felt about Senator McCarthy?




contempt of congress


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## Greenbeard

Oddball said:


> Ted Kennedy was praised for nothing more than being a Kennedy.



Well, that and lots and lots of other things.


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## Oddball

Yeah...Like getting dead drunk, subsequently driving his car off of a bridge and leaving a young innocent campaign worker to drown.


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## Gadawg73

Joe McCarthy was an alcoholic that fabricated everything he touched.
My uncle was a construction worker in California working for movie studios. McCarthy labeled him and nundreds of others as communists without any evidence to support it. Uncle Bill and all the others were black listed and never worked another day in that industry. Thousands in the movie industry were blacklisted as communists.
Name one that was right.
Sure,McCarthy pointed out there were communists around. Well DUH. Even a blind squirrell finds a nut every once in a while.
You peoplewill believe anything and are too young to know any better.


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## L.K.Eder

Oddball said:


> Yeah...Like getting dead drunk, subsequently driving his car off of a bridge and leaving a young innocent campaign worker to drown.



still deflecting, how about some facts about mccarthy, you dolt?

damn, you are boring.


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## Oddball

Like I said, being a boozer in the District of Criminals was disqualifying for anything, then we'd have to quit mentioning about 90% of them.

So, you want to quit deflecting to the booze?


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## L.K.Eder

Oddball said:


> Like I said, being a boozer in the District of Criminals was disqualifying for anything, then we'd have to quit mentioning about 90% of them.
> 
> So, you want to quit deflecting to the booze?




nice save, bozo.

sadly, booze was central to mccarthy. his liver did stop this shit.


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## theDoctorisIn

Joe McCarthy the hero: Who cares about all the innocent lives he ruined! 

He saved us from the evil of Dalton Trumbo, Ring Lardner, and Paul Robeson.


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## PoliticalChic

Greenbeard said:


> Oddball said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ted Kennedy was praised for nothing more than being a Kennedy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, that and lots and lots of other things.
Click to expand...


"For his hard public drinking, his obsessive public womanizing and his frequent boorishness, he has become a late-century legend, Teddy the Terrible, ...A former mid-level Kennedy staffer, bitterly disillusioned, recalls with disgust one (now ex-) high-ranking aide as a pimpwhose real position was to procure women for Kennedy. ...

It is after midnight and Kennedy and Dodd are just finishing up a long dinner in a private room on the first floor of the restaurants annex. They are drunk. Their dates, two very young blondes, leave the table to go to the bathroom. (The dates are drunk too. Theyd always get their girls very, very drunk, says a former Brasserie waitress.) Betty Loh, who served the foursome, also leaves the room. Raymond Campet, the co-owner of La Brasserie, tells Gaviglio the senators want to see her. 
As Gaviglio enters the room, the six-foot-two, 225-plus-pound Kennedy grabs the five-foot-three, 103-pound waitress and throws her on the table. She lands on her back, scattering crystal, plates and cutlery and the lit candles. Several glasses and a crystal candlestick are broken. Kennedy then picks her up from the table and throws her on Dodd, who is sprawled in a chair. With Gaviglio on Dodds lap, Kennedy jumps on top and begins rubbing his genital area against hers, supporting his weight on the arms of the chair. ...

...However, waitress Virginia Hurt, who says Morgan described the scene to her shortly after witnessing it, recalls, He was on the floor with his pants down on top of the woman,...

Three months later, on July 18, came the defining moment of Kennedys life, when he drove his Oldsmobile off a bridge on the island of Chappaquiddick, sending young Kennedy staffer Mary Jo Kopechne to her death and drowning ...

...: a childish belief that the rules of human behavior do not apply to himself, ..."
http://men.style.com/gq/features/full?id=content_5585&pageNum=4


"I dont know if you know this or not, but one of his favorite topics of humor was indeed Chappaquiddick itself. And he would ask people, have you heard any new jokes about Chappaquiddick? That is just the most amazing thing. Its not that he didnt feel remorse about the death of Mary Jo Kopechne, but that he still always saw the other side of everything and the ridiculous side of things, too."
Hot Air  One of his favorite topics of humor was indeed Chappaquiddick itself; Update: Audio added

"In his book, which came out this week, Kengor focuses on a KGB letter written at the height of the Cold War that shows that Sen. Edward Kennedy (D-Mass.) offered to assist Soviet leaders in formulating a public relations strategy to counter President Reagans foreign policy and to complicate his re-election efforts.
The letter, dated May 14, 1983, was sent from the head of the KGB to Yuri Andropov, who was then General Secretary of the Soviet Unions Communist Party.
In his letter, KGB head Viktor Chebrikov offered Andropov his interpretation of Kennedys offer. Former U.S. Sen. John Tunney (D-Calif.) had traveled to Moscow on behalf of Kennedy to seek out a partnership with Andropov and other Soviet officials, Kengor claims in his book.

I received a review copy of The Crusader on Wednesday. The book first references the Kennedy plan on page 206, and includes the complete Soviet memo, dated May 14, 1983, in the Appendix. Its an eye opener.

Romerstein, a former House intelligence committee staffer and a researcher of Soviet archives, uncovered numerous documents suggesting that Ted Kennedy was a collaborationist with the Soviets during our Cold War. Romerstein also co-authored, along with Eric Breindel, the highly praised Verona Secrets, Exposing Soviet Espionage and Americas Traitors.
The Baltimore Reporter


Letter Details Kennedy Offer To USSR | Sweetness & Light


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## Oddball

Ooooooo...Out-Googled!

That'll leave a mark!


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## PoliticalChic

Gadawg73 said:


> Joe McCarthy was an alcoholic that fabricated everything he touched.
> My uncle was a construction worker in California working for movie studios. McCarthy labeled him and nundreds of others as communists without any evidence to support it. Uncle Bill and all the others were black listed and never worked another day in that industry. Thousands in the movie industry were blacklisted as communists.
> Name one that was right.
> Sure,McCarthy pointed out there were communists around. Well DUH. Even a blind squirrell finds a nut every once in a while.
> You peoplewill believe anything and are too young to know any better.



OMG!- It must be Dullard73...

Every time you tell the McCarty story the characters change...you didn't bring up Uncle Bill last time.

Where is the subpoena that Uncle Bill received?

Lost, huh?  Just like your mind.

I'd like to see any proof that you or anyone else has of a ruined life or blacklisting by Senator Joseph McCarthy....

or else you can keep the dunce cap, and go back in the corner.


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## uscitizen

LMAO

This is good stuff.
Why did I always kinda have Frank pegged as a McCarthy man?


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## Dante

CrusaderFrank said:


> I'm only about 35 pages into M. Stanton Evans "Blacklisted by History" and I am livid at the utter gall and tremendous scope of the Leftist outright lies.
> 
> Did you know that many of the original documents that McCarthy based his campaign on are missing?
> 
> As recently as March 1993 someone, we don't know who
> 
> http://commonsense.edixi.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/sandy_berger.jp/IMG]
> 
> went into the US National Archives and took the Klaus Memo, a 1946 memo by a State Department official Samuel Klaus implicating Alger Hiss and many others as Communist spies?[/quote]
> 
> Uncle Joe was a bully, a liar, a punk and a drunkard.
> 
> fuck him and memory of him you or some other revisionist would like to pedal.
> 
> ---
> 
> [B]and this is from somebody who is not an Uncle Joe hater:[/B]
> 
> [FONT="Arial Narrow"]&#8220;McCarthy was a drunk, a crook, and a liar who maintained his waning political career by willfully attacking individuals and organizations that posed no threat to the United States,&#8221; writes The Capital Times  of Madison, Wisconsin, a publication McCarthy once referred to as &#8220;the Pravda of the Prairie&#8221; after it opposed both of his bids to the U.S. Senate.
> 
> --
> 
> [COLOR="Red"]Even if McCarthy&#8217;s aim was true, his tactics weren&#8217;t, and his willingness to tell The Big Lie cost McCarthy his own career in the end.[/COLOR] Much like Ernesto Miranda, freed from prison for not being read the &#8220;Miranda Warning&#8221;, only to have his eventual killer released without charges 10 years later for a procedural problem regarding his Miranda Rights, [COLOR="Red"]perhaps the person most undone by McCarthyism was the man himself.[/COLOR]
> 
> Luckily he has a worthy and thorough advocate like Evans to defend him. Blacklisted may draw fire for challenging &#8211; convincingly &#8211; many peoples&#8217; long-settled impressions of Joe McCarthy, but, before long, it&#8217;ll make its way onto postwar American History reading lists.
> 
> Read more: [url=http://blogcritics.org/books/article/book-review-blacklisted-by-history-by/page-3/#ixzz0wX9OiHoZ]Book Review: Blacklisted by History by M. Stanton Evans - Page 3 - Blogcritics Books[/url]
> 
> 
> Read more: [url=http://blogcritics.org/books/article/book-review-blacklisted-by-history-by/#ixzz0wX8z6C4O]Book Review: Blacklisted by History by M. Stanton Evans - Blogcritics Books[/url]
> [/FONT]
> 
> [URL="http://www.yaf.org/NationalJournalismCenter.aspx"]Evans, founder and longtime director of the National Journalism Center[/URL] - how do you spell p-a-r-t-i-s-a-n?


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## Dante

It's a conspiracy: Frank has the Clinton people scared of what McCarthy docs would say?


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## uscitizen

Yeah McCarthy was even after that commie Ronald Reagan!
Reagan defended commies in the film industry.


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## midcan5

McCarthy reminds me a great deal of Beck today. Both stir up trouble with far fetched investigations that are merely hearsay. Both were drunks and McCarthy was an embarrassment to the Eisenhower presidency and the congress. If you read a bit of real history, the man is a disgrace, and he hurt many with accusations that were often completely untrue. 

Communism in America of the times was a concept that appealed to many, it was an idea and it took a while before Stalin made it the evil it became, totalitarian dictatorship. Intellectual ideas and their history are too complicated for the likes of revisionist historians whose goal is only to denigrate another. McCarthy ironically would fit well into a totalitarian communist society, he saw communists everywhere, but failed because he was a loud mouth blowhard. If anyone wants to read the true story of Joe check out book linked below. 

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Glory-Dream-Narrative-History-1932-1972/dp/0553345893/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpi_9]Amazon.com: The Glory and the Dream: A Narrative History of&#133;[/ame]


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## Political Junky

I suggest some of you see the film "Manchurian Candidate", preferably the 1962 version.


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## Dante

Political Junky said:


> I suggest some of you see the film "Manchurian Candidate", preferably the 1962 version.



right up there with that movie JFK.


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## elvis

Dante said:


> Political Junky said:
> 
> 
> 
> I suggest some of you see the film "Manchurian Candidate", preferably the 1962 version.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> right up there with that movie JFK.
Click to expand...


very well-done film, as was Nixon.  They just were inaccurate.


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## Dante

elvis said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Political Junky said:
> 
> 
> 
> I suggest some of you see the film "Manchurian Candidate", preferably the 1962 version.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> right up there with that movie JFK.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> very well-done film, as was Nixon.  They just were inaccurate.
Click to expand...


you are a kind man. much kinder than I.


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## elvis

Dante said:


> elvis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dante said:
> 
> 
> 
> right up there with that movie JFK.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> very well-done film, as was Nixon.  They just were inaccurate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> you are a kind man. much kinder than I.
Click to expand...


well, when I said good films, I mean the cinematography was excellent, good acting, etc.


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## Dante

elvis said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> elvis said:
> 
> 
> 
> very well-done film, as was Nixon.  They just were inaccurate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you are a kind man. much kinder than I.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> well, when I said good films, I mean the cinematography was excellent, good acting, etc.
Click to expand...


and I think it was very kind of you to use the term 'inaccurate' to criticize them, when there are so many more descriptive terms you could have used.


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## Old Rocks

*McCarthy was a boozing useless asshole that should have been censored for his lies long before he was. Today we have Limpbaugh performing the same idiocy, but he is not an elected official.*

Joe McCarthy: Then and Now | THE ZEITGEISTY REPORT

HISTORICAL FACT:

In a public career that lasted a little over a decade, Senator McCarthy was never able to uncover a single professed Communist working within the United States government.

One of the many things I love about the MSNBC program Countdown with Keith Olbermann is Keith&#8217;s habit of citing the fact that a story he is highlighting is on the anniversary of a significant day in American history. He then ties the two events together symbolically. Such was the case on Monday evening. While covering the latest barrage of right wing lies and craziness, he noted that it was the sixtieth anniversary of the speech in Wheeling, West Virginia that launched the red-baiting career of Wisconsin Senator Joe McCarthy


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## LuckyDan

There has been more utter bullshit written and spoken about Joe McCarthy than any other person who ever lived. 

A Great American statesman and patriot. God love him.


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## Dante

Old Rocks said:


> *McCarthy was a boozing useless asshole that should have been censored for his lies long before he was. Today we have Limpbaugh performing the same idiocy, but he is not an elected official.*
> 
> Joe McCarthy: Then and Now | THE ZEITGEISTY REPORT
> 
> HISTORICAL FACT:
> 
> In a public career that lasted a little over a decade, Senator McCarthy was never able to uncover a single professed Communist working within the United States government.
> 
> One of the many things I love about the MSNBC program Countdown with Keith Olbermann is Keiths habit of citing the fact that a story he is highlighting is on the anniversary of a significant day in American history. He then ties the two events together symbolically. Such was the case on Monday evening. While covering the latest barrage of right wing lies and craziness, he noted that it was the sixtieth anniversary of the speech in Wheeling, West Virginia that launched the red-baiting career of Wisconsin Senator Joe McCarthy



thank you


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## Dante

LuckyDan said:


> There has been more utter bullshit written and spoken about Joe McCarthy than any other person who ever lived.
> 
> A Great American statesman and patriot. God love him.



love your opinion. hate your absence of facts


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## Flopper

CrusaderFrank said:


> I'm only about 35 pages into M. Stanton Evans "Blacklisted by History" and I am livid at the utter gall and tremendous scope of the Leftist outright lies.
> 
> Did you know that many of the original documents that McCarthy based his campaign on are missing?
> 
> As recently as March 1993 someone, we don't know who
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> went into the US National Archives and took the Klaus Memo, a 1946 memo by a State Department official Samuel Klaus implicating Alger Hiss and many others as Communist spies?


*In the 1950's, America was afraid.  Many thought it was only a question of time before the Soviets attacked.  McCarthy prayed on that fear, destroying the lives of many people.   Was there really a Communist behind every bush.  I doubt it.  

A sad footnote in American History that I hope will never be repeated.

Interesting link
The Communist Hunt and the Salem Witch Hunt, Page 2 of 3 - Associated Content - associatedcontent.com*


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## Political Junky

With the highly publicized Army&#8211;McCarthy hearings of 1954, McCarthy's support and popularity began to fade. *On December 2, 1954, the Senate voted to censure Senator McCarthy by a vote of 67 to 22, making him one of the few senators ever to be disciplined in this fashion.* *McCarthy died in Bethesda Naval Hospital on May 2, 1957, at the age of 48. The official cause of death was acute hepatitis; it is widely accepted that this was exacerbated by alcoholism.*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_mccarthy


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## Father Time

Pfft, anyone can write a book doesn't make it accurate, just look at the numerous books on conspiracy theories and people being abducted by aliens.


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## AnCo

Read the title of this thread and thought it was a joke. Apparently, the OP is actually earnest. Which is hilarious within itself.


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## editec

CrusaderFrank said:


> Think of it, what was supposed to be the last copy of the Memo that was one of the primary motivators for McCarthy to ask about Communist infiltration of US State was *REMOVED FROM THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES IN MARCH 1993.*
> 
> Let's just chew on that for a minute.


 
All part of the FREEDOM _FROM_ INFORMATION act, I suppose.


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## bigrebnc1775

Oddball said:


> Yeah...Like getting dead drunk, subsequently driving his car off of a bridge and leaving a young innocent campaign worker to drown.



Priceless


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## bigrebnc1775

AnCo said:


> Read the title of this thread and thought it was a joke. Apparently, the OP is actually earnest. Which is hilarious within itself.



HUM there is some truth to what McCarthy did. To bad we don't have another like him today. Communism is not a fashion statement to be take off at a whim, its an evil ideology. obama wouldn't be president nor would we have the communist leftist we have in the government.


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## skookerasbil

LuckyDan said:


> There has been more utter bullshit written and spoken about Joe McCarthy than any other person who ever lived.
> 
> A Great American statesman and patriot. God love him.





indeed.......the guy was so spot on about communists being in the government its not real.............


And on Olbermann??? Meh..........the guy is like a sideshow at a travelling circus. You always get a handful of folks to pass by and gawk for a moment or two..........but only a handful.


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## CrusaderFrank

manifold said:


> I wonder how Frank Zappa felt about Senator McCarthy?



Had Zappa died of an OD he'd get radio play too just like The Doors, Janis and Hendrix

Zappa didn't have access to the information we have today which completely vindicates McCarthy central thesis that US State Dept was being usurped by genuine Communist spies.


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## CrusaderFrank

Old Rocks said:


> *McCarthy was a boozing useless asshole that should have been censored for his lies long before he was. Today we have Limpbaugh performing the same idiocy, but he is not an elected official.*
> 
> Joe McCarthy: Then and Now | THE ZEITGEISTY REPORT
> 
> HISTORICAL FACT:
> 
> In a public career that lasted a little over a decade, Senator McCarthy was never able to uncover a single professed Communist working within the United States government.
> 
> One of the many things I love about the MSNBC program Countdown with Keith Olbermann is Keiths habit of citing the fact that a story he is highlighting is on the anniversary of a significant day in American history. He then ties the two events together symbolically. Such was the case on Monday evening. While covering the latest barrage of right wing lies and craziness, he noted that it was the sixtieth anniversary of the speech in Wheeling, West Virginia that launched the red-baiting career of Wisconsin Senator Joe McCarthy



Did you know that every single copy of the newspaper from Wheeling, West Virginia are not available on microfilm, nor are they in the National Archives? 

There is a 3 month gap covering the time beginning with McCarthy speech there.

Once again, copies of the local newspaper which reported on McCarthy's speech, spanning a 3 month period immediately after have been removed from the National Archive and from the local library.


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## Greenbeard

OBI-WAN: But Master Yoda who could have erased information from the archives? That's impossible, isn't it?

YODA: (frowning) Dangerous and disturbing this puzzle is. Only a Jedi could have erased those files. But who and why, harder to answer. Meditate on this, I will. May the Force be with you.


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## CrusaderFrank

Greenbeard said:


> OBI-WAN: But Master Yoda who could have erased information from the archives? That's impossible, isn't it?
> 
> YODA: (frowning) Dangerous and disturbing this puzzle is. Only a Jedi could have erased those files. But who and why, harder to answer. Meditate on this, I will. May the Force be with you.



And yet in March 1993 someone, we don't know who







had the audacity to go into the National Archives and remove what was supposed to be the last copy ever of the memo Klaus had prepared in 1946 warning about Communist infiltration at US State.


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## editec

_The Russians are coming!_

_The Russians are coming!_

No wait...nothing to worry about.

It's _only_ the Chinese.


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## rightwinger

Poor Joe McCarthy

Relegated by history to having Crusader Frank defend him


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## Soggy in NOLA

L.K.Eder said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder how Frank Zappa felt about Senator McCarthy?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> contempt of congress
Click to expand...


I guess we'll never know... nor really care.


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## rightwinger

CrusaderFrank said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder how Frank Zappa felt about Senator McCarthy?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Had Zappa died of an OD he'd get radio play too just like The Doors, Janis and Hendrix
> 
> Zappa didn't have access to the information we have today which completely vindicates McCarthy central thesis that US State Dept was being usurped by genuine Communist spies.
Click to expand...


If Zappa had any talent he would get play like the Doors, Janis and Hendrix

He was a novelty act that appealed to adolescent males


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## Toro

lol @ historical revisionism

freedom < delusional power


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## Mr Natural

rightwinger said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> manifold said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder how Frank Zappa felt about Senator McCarthy?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Had Zappa died of an OD he'd get radio play too just like The Doors, Janis and Hendrix
> 
> Zappa didn't have access to the information we have today which completely vindicates McCarthy central thesis that US State Dept was being usurped by genuine Communist spies.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If Zappa had any talent he would get play like the Doors, Janis and Hendrix
> 
> He was *a novelty act *that appealed to adolescent males
Click to expand...


Frank seems to go for novelty acts.


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## jillian

boy... talk about revisionist history... 

i can't decide if it's more evil or more dumb.

maybe both?


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## Synthaholic

rightwinger said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> manifold said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder how Frank Zappa felt about Senator McCarthy?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Had Zappa died of an OD he'd get radio play too just like The Doors, Janis and Hendrix
> 
> Zappa didn't have access to the information we have today which completely vindicates McCarthy central thesis that US State Dept was being usurped by genuine Communist spies.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If Zappa had any talent he would get play like the Doors, Janis and Hendrix
> 
> He was a novelty act that appealed to adolescent males
Click to expand...

I have to call FOUL on this one.


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## editec

jillian said:


> boy... talk about revisionist history...
> 
> i can't decide if it's more evil or more dumb.
> 
> maybe both?


 
Dumb_ is_ evil.


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## jillian

editec said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> boy... talk about revisionist history...
> 
> i can't decide if it's more evil or more dumb.
> 
> maybe both?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dumb_ is_ evil.
Click to expand...


not if they can't help it because the IQ is too low. (that's the lib in me talking... )


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## Wry Catcher

jillian said:


> boy... talk about revisionist history...
> 
> i can't decide if it's more evil or more dumb.
> 
> maybe both?



Maybe both, kinda depends on the source.  I have no doubt evil (defined in the sense of any means justifies the goal) when members of the Ministry of Truth (think Limbaugh, Hannity) use the mass media to pervert history.  Dumb when posters on this board repeat the distortions of the spin jockeys, neo-conservatives and loney far right (think Sharon Angle, Michelle Bachman, Rand Paul).
[I may have coined a term: "Spin Jockey", kinda describes conservative radio 'personalities' rather well]
  toot my own horn, why not!


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## manifold

CrusaderFrank said:


> Had Zappa died of an OD he'd get radio play too just like The Doors, Janis and Hendrix.



Maybe.

Or if he had any talent, he'd get radio play too just like Zeppelin, The Stones, Rush and Tull.


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## Dante

manifold said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Had Zappa died of an OD he'd get radio play too just like The Doors, Janis and Hendrix.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe.
> 
> Or if he had any talent, he'd get radio play too just like Zeppelin, The Stones, Rush and Tull.
Click to expand...




--

but to be fair, Zappa had tons of talent. Just ask any real musician. What Zappa didn't have is a hugely wide audience. But he did have millions of fans. Many of his fans were professional musicians maybe including the ones you have tried to emulate.


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## Dante

editec said:


> _The Russians are coming!_
> 
> _The Russians are coming!_
> 
> No wait...nothing to worry about.
> 
> It's _only_ the Chinese.



Jonathan Winters


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## manifold

Dante said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Had Zappa died of an OD he'd get radio play too just like The Doors, Janis and Hendrix.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe.
> 
> Or if he had any talent, he'd get radio play too just like Zeppelin, The Stones, Rush and Tull.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> but to be fair, Zappa had tons of talent. Just ask any real musician. What Zappa didn't have is a hugely wide audience. But he did have millions of fans. Many of his fans were professional musicians maybe including the ones you have tried to emulate.
Click to expand...


I'm aware of that.  But still, not my cup of tea.

One thing is for sure, Zappa was 100,000 times the musician that McCarthy was an American hero.


----------



## Mr Natural

manifold said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Had Zappa died of an OD he'd get radio play too just like The Doors, Janis and Hendrix.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe.
> 
> Or if he had any talent, he'd get radio play too just like Zeppelin, The Stones, Rush and Tull.
Click to expand...


It's a shame he wasted his talent on a comedy act, and one that wasn't even that amusing or clever.


----------



## LibocalypseNow

Yea Sandy Bergler was such a creepy A*shole. Typical Democrat. It probably was him who nicked that memo. McCarthy outed many actual Communists. History has shown this to be fact. Most if not all he investigated were Communists. He felt he was doing the right thing for our country by going after these Communists. He does get a bad rap. But look who controls our MSM? Hollywood is full of Ultra-Liberals,Socialists,Progressives,or what ever they're calling themselves these days. They're responsible for all of the negative propaganda against McCarthy. Our News Media is and has been controlled by these same Socialists for many years. So it's no surprise McCarthy gets such a bad rap in the MSM. Just look at who controls the Media propaganda. Most he investigated were Communists. People should take a more balanced approach towards the man. Hey just my opinion anyway. Thanks for your post.


----------



## Dr.Traveler

My opinion of folks looking to revise history in McCarthy's favor is pretty low.

McCarthy is an example of the old adage that even if you're 100% right (which he most definitely was not), the ends don't justify the means.  McCarthy's type will always be the greatest danger to democracy: Power hungry opportunists who will lie, cheat, and steal to further their own agenda.


----------



## Dante

manifold said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> manifold said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe.
> 
> Or if he had any talent, he'd get radio play too just like Zeppelin, The Stones, Rush and Tull.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> but to be fair, Zappa had tons of talent. Just ask any real musician. What Zappa didn't have is a hugely wide audience. But he did have millions of fans. Many of his fans were professional musicians maybe including the ones you have tried to emulate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm aware of that.  But still, not my cup of tea.
> 
> One thing is for sure, Zappa was 100,000 times the musician that McCarthy was an American hero.
Click to expand...


poor uncle Joe, the Irish-Male typhoid Mary.


----------



## Father Time

LibocalypseNow said:


> Yea Sandy Bergler was such a creepy A*shole. Typical Democrat. It probably was him who nicked that memo. McCarthy outed many actual Communists. History has shown this to be fact. Most if not all he investigated were Communists. He felt he was doing the right thing for our country by going after these Communists. He does get a bad rap. But look who controls our MSM? Hollywood is full of Ultra-Liberals,Socialists,Progressives,or what ever they're calling themselves these days. They're responsible for all of the negative propaganda against McCarthy. Our News Media is and has been controlled by these same Socialists for many years. So it's no surprise McCarthy gets such a bad rap in the MSM. Just look at who controls the Media propaganda. Most he investigated were Communists. People should take a more balanced approach towards the man. Hey just my opinion anyway. Thanks for your post.



Yes he gets such a bad rap because all MSM is controlled by a massive socialist conspiracy. Uh huh


----------



## rightwinger

Mr Clean said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Had Zappa died of an OD he'd get radio play too just like The Doors, Janis and Hendrix.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe.
> 
> Or if he had any talent, he'd get radio play too just like Zeppelin, The Stones, Rush and Tull.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's a shame he wasted his talent on a comedy act, and one that wasn't even that amusing or clever.
Click to expand...


Zappa was little more than a comedy act that appealed to adolescent males who would giggle at his records. If he had talent, he sold out in order to grind out songs for his limited fanbase.

Weird Al plays a mean accordian too....doesn't make him a great musical talent


----------



## LibocalypseNow

Unfortunately his history has been written by the Ultra-Liberals/Socialists/Progressives/Communists. Look at who controls the propaganda in Hollywood and our MSM. There you will find all your answers. McCarthy went after Communists at a time when this was necessary. Did he always do the right thing? Probably not but it is true that most if not all he went after were affiliated with Communists. He really does get a bad rap. His life should be looked at in a much more balanced fashion. The Hollywood & MSM Socialists/Progressives have grossly distorted his history. That's a real shame.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

It's totally appropriate and not at all unexpected that the people who have their McCarthy opinions spoofed to them and never bother checking their veracity also have a low opinion of Zappa as a comedian of dubious musical talent.

Go take "Blacklisted by History" by Evans and "Shut Up n Play Yer Guitar" out of your local library this weekend.  You know where the library is, right? It's the building where you meet your dealer to but your paraquat laced Afghan Kush.

Go play this in 7/8 Reagge

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6cplMM3d_Q]YouTube - Steve Vai On His Audition for Frank Zappa's Band[/ame]


----------



## Modbert

Watch this Frank:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJyaBxYjWcQ]YouTube - The Monsters Are Due On Maple Street 1/3[/ame]

All three parts.



> The tools of conquest do not necessarily come with bombs and explosions and fallout. There are weapons that are simply thoughts, attitudes, prejudices, to be found only in the minds of men. For the record, prejudices can kill, and suspicion can destroy, and the thoughtless, frightened search for a scapegoat has a fallout all of its own: for the children, and the children yet unborn. And the pity of it is that these things cannot be confined to the Twilight Zone.


----------



## rightwinger

CrusaderFrank said:


> It's totally appropriate and not at all unexpected that the people who have their McCarthy opinions spoofed to them and never bother checking their veracity also have a low opinion of Zappa as a comedian of dubious musical talent.
> 
> Go take "Blacklisted by History" by Evans and "Shut Up n Play Yer Guitar" out of your local library this weekend.  You know where the library is, right? It's the building where you meet your dealer to but your paraquat laced Afghan Kush.
> 
> Go play this in 7/8 Reagge
> 
> YouTube - Steve Vai On His Audition for Frank Zappa's Band



Zappa was fun if you were drunk and listening with your friends. A good ole "Dynamo Hum" sing along.  

He was a novelty act good for a laugh or two. Most people outgrew him

Seems Frankie never did


----------



## Synthaholic

rightwinger said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's totally appropriate and not at all unexpected that the people who have their McCarthy opinions spoofed to them and never bother checking their veracity also have a low opinion of Zappa as a comedian of dubious musical talent.
> 
> Go take "Blacklisted by History" by Evans and "Shut Up n Play Yer Guitar" out of your local library this weekend.  You know where the library is, right? It's the building where you meet your dealer to but your paraquat laced Afghan Kush.
> 
> Go play this in 7/8 Reagge
> 
> YouTube - Steve Vai On His Audition for Frank Zappa's Band
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Zappa was fun if you were drunk and listening with your friends. A good ole "Dynamo Hum" sing along.
> 
> He was a novelty act good for a laugh or two. Most people outgrew him
> 
> Seems Frankie never did
Click to expand...

No, sorry.  Zappa is one of the few true musical geniuses of the 20th century.

Hey, Van Gogh didn't have that many fans until well after his death, also.


----------



## JakeStarkey

PoliticalChic said:


> <snip>  ]



Here goes PC with historical revision based on a new reality with new definitions without provenance provided for the "key" documents.

Well, the girl from Columbia College, Missouri, is the gift that keeps on giving.


----------



## HUGGY

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO2iiovYq70&feature=related]YouTube - JOSEPH MCCARTHY VS JOSEPH WELCH[/ame]


----------



## JakeStarkey

jillian said:


> boy... talk about revisionist history...
> 
> i can't decide if it's more evil or more dumb.
> 
> maybe both?



What empowers the evil is that the effort is deliberate, an attempt to revise history with an unreality supported by unreal 'facts.'  The bastard far right are entitled to their opinions but not to their own reality.


----------



## rdean

http://www.usmessageboard.com/relig...-poverty-of-political-debate.html#post2614482

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU.

I write about why there can't be political debate in this country and the right puts together a thread backing up my every word.

I love being, well, pardon the expression, "right".


----------



## Flopper

Political Junky said:


> I suggest some of you see the film "Manchurian Candidate", preferably the 1962 version.


*A Good movie and a great book, but it's fiction.*


----------



## uscitizen

rightwinger said:


> Mr Clean said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> manifold said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe.
> 
> Or if he had any talent, he'd get radio play too just like Zeppelin, The Stones, Rush and Tull.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's a shame he wasted his talent on a comedy act, and one that wasn't even that amusing or clever.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Zappa was little more than a comedy act that appealed to adolescent males who would giggle at his records. If he had talent, he sold out in order to grind out songs for his limited fanbase.
> 
> Weird Al plays a mean accordian too....doesn't make him a great musical talent
Click to expand...


Zappa did some great Jazz.  Listen to Hot Rats.


----------



## Political Junky

Flopper said:


> Political Junky said:
> 
> 
> 
> I suggest some of you see the film "Manchurian Candidate", preferably the 1962 version.
> 
> 
> 
> *A Good movie and a great book, but it's fiction.*
Click to expand...

Of course it's fiction, but it depicts what can happen. No doubt it was inspired by the likes of Joe McCarthy.


----------



## Political Junky

HUGGY said:


> YouTube - JOSEPH MCCARTHY VS JOSEPH WELCH


Love that quote from Welch.


----------



## LuckyDan

Political Junky said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> YouTube - JOSEPH MCCARTHY VS JOSEPH WELCH
> 
> 
> 
> Love that quote from Welch.
Click to expand...

 
Do you know the context?


----------



## theDoctorisIn

LuckyDan said:


> Political Junky said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> YouTube - JOSEPH MCCARTHY VS JOSEPH WELCH
> 
> 
> 
> Love that quote from Welch.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Do you know the context?
Click to expand...


Yes, of course.


----------



## Dr.Traveler

Modbert said:


> Watch this Frank:
> 
> YouTube - The Monsters Are Due On Maple Street 1/3
> 
> All three parts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The tools of conquest do not necessarily come with bombs and explosions and fallout. There are weapons that are simply thoughts, attitudes, prejudices, to be found only in the minds of men. For the record, prejudices can kill, and suspicion can destroy, and the thoughtless, frightened search for a scapegoat has a fallout all of its own: for the children, and the children yet unborn. And the pity of it is that these things cannot be confined to the Twilight Zone.
Click to expand...


I'm thinking you can pretty much use the Twilight Zone as a text for any course on ethics and morality.  Rod was pretty insightful.

What's scary about all these fictional mythologies that are inspired by McCarthy is that they barely begin to touch the reality of the man.  He was the ultimate useful idiot when he started out.  A complete pawn of political operators.  He became the textbook example of how dangerous pawns can be. 

What's hilarious is that at the end of the day the Communists weren't nearly as successful as the Scientologists at infiltrating the Federal government.


----------



## Modbert

Dr.Traveler said:


> I'm thinking you can pretty much use the Twilight Zone as a text for any course on ethics and morality.  Rod was pretty insightful.
> 
> What's scary is that all these fictional mythologies that are inspired by McCarthy barely begin to touch the reality of the man.  He was the ultimate useful idiot when he started out.  A complete pawn of political operators.  He became the textbook example of how dangerous pawns can be.
> 
> What's hilarious is that at the end of the day the Communists weren't nearly as successful as the Scientologists at infiltrating the Federal government.



Agreed. The show could easily serve as a text for any course on ethics and morality.

I've read about Operation Snow White in the past, definitely ironic to say the least on that one.


----------



## LuckyDan

Dr.Traveler said:


> Modbert said:
> 
> 
> 
> Watch this Frank:
> 
> YouTube - The Monsters Are Due On Maple Street 1/3
> 
> All three parts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The tools of conquest do not necessarily come with bombs and explosions and fallout. There are weapons that are simply thoughts, attitudes, prejudices, to be found only in the minds of men. For the record, prejudices can kill, and suspicion can destroy, and the thoughtless, frightened search for a scapegoat has a fallout all of its own: for the children, and the children yet unborn. And the pity of it is that these things cannot be confined to the Twilight Zone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm thinking you can pretty much use the Twilight Zone as a text for any course on ethics and morality. Rod was pretty insightful.
> 
> What's scary about all these fictional mythologies that are inspired by McCarthy is that they barely begin to touch the reality of the man. *He was the ultimate useful idiot when he started out. A complete pawn of political operators*. He became the textbook example of how dangerous pawns can be.
> 
> What's hilarious is that at the end of the day the Communists weren't nearly as successful as the Scientologists at infiltrating the Federal government.
Click to expand...

 
I'm late to The Party, so forgive me if this has been dealt with, but...to whom was McCarthy useful as an idiot?

Regarding CPUSA - the fact that they were made to look inept by McCarthy in DC and by Reagan in Hollywood does not mean they were harmless.


----------



## loosecannon

CrusaderFrank said:


> I'm only about 35 pages into M. Stanton Evans "Blacklisted by History" and I am livid at the utter gall and tremendous scope of the Leftist outright lies.
> 
> Did you know that many of the original documents that McCarthy based his campaign on are missing?
> 
> As recently as March 1993 someone, we don't know who
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> went into the US National Archives and took the Klaus Memo, a 1946 memo by a State Department official Samuel Klaus implicating Alger Hiss and many others as Communist spies?



and this makes McCarthy a hero? How, wow?

Isn't it just as possible that he is still another dude inadvertently fixated on destroying our nation who merely had his legacy recalled as did JFK and virtually everybody in the upper eschelons of power in the US since then?

I mean the PTB have basically made a complete sweep and full sanitization of the history of our government within the last 40 years at the top levels. 

Where is the real Warren report?


----------



## American Horse

Modbert said:


> Oddball said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just ask American patriot and hero, Ted Kennedy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you agree with Frank's OP title?
Click to expand...

I sure as heck do; but then I'm better informed than you.  I don't run with the popular culture on issues of importance like national security.
It's so easy to fall in line and be a follower.


----------



## Modbert

American Horse said:


> I sure as heck do; but then I'm better informed than you.  I don't run with the popular culture on issues of importance like national security.
> It's so easy to fall in line and be a follower.



You sound like one of those kids I went to high school with. He would say he was a non-conformist, say he doesn't listen to mainstream music or watch mainstream movies. He was a douchebag too.


----------



## American Horse

Gadawg73 said:


> Joe McCarthy was an alcoholic that fabricated everything he touched.
> My uncle was a construction worker in California working for movie studios. McCarthy labeled him and nundreds of others as communists without any evidence to support it. Uncle Bill and all the others were black listed and never worked another day in that industry. Thousands in the movie industry were blacklisted as communists.
> Name one that was right.
> Sure, McCarthy pointed out there were communists around. Well DUH. Even a blind squirrell finds a nut every once in a while.
> You people will believe anything and are too young to know any better.


Joe McCarthy had nothing to do with any of that Hollywood hullabaloo.  That was all part of the work of the HUAC (House Un-American Activities Committee) and Joseph McCarthy was a US Senator, and did not work or coordinate with the house committee. None of these people who were "blacklisted" were named by Joseph McCarthy.  Whatever blacklisting that occurred came as a result of certain large Hollywood producers and moguls who wanted to be sure their industry was not infiltrated by communists.  

It's too bad you don't challenge anything you hear on the subject.  

Prove what you say.  And by the way, prove what you said in another thread that McCarthy said that the communists were poisoning our water supply with fluoride.

Here&#8217;s what you said in THIS THREAD


> If you do not know that Joe *McCarthy stated himself that vaccinations, fluoridation of water and the government funding mental health clinic*  then you are in denial. He said it and that is documented fact.
> So you condone slandering hundreds of innocent people because he "sounded the alarm"?



I repeat my challenge:  Show me some evidence, even a credible link that Joe McCarthy ever *stated that.* Anything will do; I want to see it. So document it; give us a link. Come on! Do it!


----------



## Synthaholic

Dr.Traveler said:


> Modbert said:
> 
> 
> 
> Watch this Frank:
> 
> YouTube - The Monsters Are Due On Maple Street 1/3
> 
> All three parts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The tools of conquest do not necessarily come with bombs and explosions and fallout. There are weapons that are simply thoughts, attitudes, prejudices, to be found only in the minds of men. For the record, prejudices can kill, and suspicion can destroy, and the thoughtless, frightened search for a scapegoat has a fallout all of its own: for the children, and the children yet unborn. And the pity of it is that these things cannot be confined to the Twilight Zone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm thinking you can pretty much use the Twilight Zone as a text for any course on ethics and morality.  Rod was pretty insightful.
> 
> What's scary about all these fictional mythologies that are inspired by McCarthy is that they barely begin to touch the reality of the man.  He was the ultimate useful idiot when he started out.  A complete pawn of political operators.  He became the textbook example of how dangerous pawns can be.
> 
> *What's hilarious is that at the end of the day the Communists weren't nearly as successful as the Scientologists at infiltrating the Federal government.*
Click to expand...


*Q:*   And under which administration did they finally get declared a church, with their tax-free status?

*A:*  Ronald Reagan.


----------



## American Horse

Modbert said:


> American Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> I sure as heck do; but then I'm better informed than you.  I don't run with the popular culture on issues of importance like national security.
> It's so easy to fall in line and be a follower.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You sound like one of those kids I went to high school with. He would say he was a non-conformist, say he doesn't listen to mainstream music or watch mainstream movies. He was a douchebag too.
Click to expand...


Yeah, well you'd like to think you're a leader and not a follower too, but it's not proven by the openness of your mind.  You just chime in with the same old same old.


----------



## Modbert

American Horse said:


> Yeah, well you'd like to think your a leader and not a follower too, but it's not proven by the openness of your mind.  You just chime in with the same old same old.



I have a open mind, it's why I'm not a fan of Joseph McCarthy. I never tried to pass off what I say as new ideas really. I'm sure this debate has been beaten to death with a horse since before I was born.


----------



## ConHog

Modbert said:


> American Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, well you'd like to think your a leader and not a follower too, but it's not proven by the openness of your mind.  You just chime in with the same old same old.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have a open mind, it's why I'm not a fan of Joseph McCarthy. I never tried to pass off what I say as new ideas really. I'm sure this debate has been beaten to death with a horse since before I was born.
Click to expand...


You certainly do NOT have an open mind. Have you honestly convinced yourself that you do?


----------



## elvis

Modbert said:


> American Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, well you'd like to think your a leader and not a follower too, but it's not proven by the openness of your mind.  You just chime in with the same old same old.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have a open mind, it's why I'm not a fan of Joseph McCarthy. I never tried to pass off what I say as new ideas really. I'm sure this debate has been beaten to death with a horse since before I was born.
Click to expand...


with a horse?  It was done in the conservatory by Col Mustard with a horse.


----------



## ConHog

American Horse said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Joe McCarthy was an alcoholic that fabricated everything he touched.
> My uncle was a construction worker in California working for movie studios. McCarthy labeled him and nundreds of others as communists without any evidence to support it. Uncle Bill and all the others were black listed and never worked another day in that industry. Thousands in the movie industry were blacklisted as communists.
> Name one that was right.
> Sure, McCarthy pointed out there were communists around. Well DUH. Even a blind squirrell finds a nut every once in a while.
> You people will believe anything and are too young to know any better.
> 
> 
> 
> Joe McCarthy had nothing to do with any of that Hollywood hullabaloo.  That was all part of the work of the HUAC (House Un-American Activities Committee) and Joseph McCarthy was a US Senator, and did not work or coordinate with the house committee. None of these people who were "blacklisted" were named by Joseph McCarthy.  Whatever blacklisting that occurred came as a result of certain large Hollywood producers and moguls who wanted to be sure their industry was not infiltrated by communists.
> 
> It's too bad you don't challenge anything you hear on the subject.
> 
> Prove what you say.  And by the way, prove what you said in another thread that McCarthy said that the communists were poisoning our water supply with fluoride.
> 
> Heres what you said in THIS THREAD
> 
> 
> 
> If you do not know that Joe *McCarthy stated himself that vaccinations, fluoridation of water and the government funding mental health clinic*  then you are in denial. He said it and that is documented fact.
> So you condone slandering hundreds of innocent people because he "sounded the alarm"?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I repeat my challenge:  Show me some evidence, even a credible link that Joe McCarthy ever *stated that.* Anything will do; I want to see it. So document it; give us a link. Come on! Do it!
Click to expand...


You are wrong in saying that McCarthy had nothing to do with the who communist investigations. Of course he wasn't involved with a House committee. However the Senate also had hearings , Tydings Committee, feel free to read about it. 

Tydings Committee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As for fluoride, yes MacCarthy led the charge of people who believed it was a communist plot. The man was a delusional prick.


----------



## American Horse

Modbert said:


> American Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, well you'd like to think your a leader and not a follower too, but it's not proven by the openness of your mind.  You just chime in with the same old same old.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have a open mind, it's why I'm not a fan of Joseph McCarthy. I never tried to pass off what I say as new ideas really. I'm sure this debate has been beaten to death with a horse since before I was born.
Click to expand...

I doubt that it has.  There never has been a real debate on the subject.  It was always taboo, pronounced such by, many, maybe not you, I don't know your history on the subject, but as for me, I've been quiet too long.  When this subject comes up I plan on speaking out.

There were lots of reasons, at the time that the powers that be (or powers that were) didn't want the truth about the lax security measures, mainly in the Dept of State, and the Treasury Dept, which were being observed about communists infiltration in this country, and that came out of the fact that we were allies with Russia in WWII.  

But at the end of the war and the beginning of the cold war, the Soviet Union was in much better position and had a greater need to infiltrate our government agencies, simply because they had a very large presence already established; a part of a "good old boy's" network.

The Russians/Soviets were able to lay their hands on the plates for printing U.S. script/money in Germany, and not once but twice.

And they were able to get the research and science they needed to produce an atomic bomb much earlier than they would've because of the same "good old boy's" network (my phrase)

We were influenced by agents in the Dept of State, which advocated for the establishment of the Communist regime in China, all the while downplaying the heroic efforts of Chiang Kai-shek for a free China.  A billion people in China might well have been in our camp at the end of WWII. We were their allies, you realize.  Instead we became the sworn enemies of Communist China, and China became a stalwart of the Soviet Union and the communist block.


----------



## American Horse

ConHog said:


> American Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Joe McCarthy was an alcoholic that fabricated everything he touched.
> My uncle was a construction worker in California working for movie studios. McCarthy labeled him and nundreds of others as communists without any evidence to support it. Uncle Bill and all the others were black listed and never worked another day in that industry. Thousands in the movie industry were blacklisted as communists.
> Name one that was right.
> Sure, McCarthy pointed out there were communists around. Well DUH. Even a blind squirrell finds a nut every once in a while.
> You people will believe anything and are too young to know any better.
> 
> 
> 
> Joe McCarthy had nothing to do with any of that Hollywood hullabaloo.  That was all part of the work of the HUAC (House Un-American Activities Committee) and Joseph McCarthy was a US Senator, and did not work or coordinate with the house committee. None of these people who were "blacklisted" were named by Joseph McCarthy.  Whatever blacklisting that occurred came as a result of certain large Hollywood producers and moguls who wanted to be sure their industry was not infiltrated by communists.
> 
> It's too bad you don't challenge anything you hear on the subject.
> 
> Prove what you say.  And by the way, prove what you said in another thread that McCarthy said that the communists were poisoning our water supply with fluoride.
> 
> Here&#8217;s what you said in THIS THREAD
> 
> 
> 
> If you do not know that Joe *McCarthy stated himself that vaccinations, fluoridation of water and the government funding mental health clinic*  then you are in denial. He said it and that is documented fact.
> So you condone slandering hundreds of innocent people because he "sounded the alarm"?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I repeat my challenge:  Show me some evidence, even a credible link that Joe McCarthy ever *stated that.* Anything will do; I want to see it. So document it; give us a link. Come on! Do it!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are wrong in saying that McCarthy had nothing to do with the who communist investigations. Of course he wasn't involved with a House committee. However the Senate also had hearings , Tydings Committee, feel free to read about it.
> 
> Tydings Committee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> As for fluoride, yes MacCarthy led the charge of people who believed it was a communist plot. The man was a delusional prick.
Click to expand...


Of course the Senate had hearings in the form of the Tydings hearings which preceded McCarthy, but I repeat that McCarthy had nothing to do with the Hollywood Blacklisting.

McCarthy had those,  and developed many more names that had not originated in the house committee, and the great majority of those were to be proven two ways, besides FBI investigaters: they would show up in the Venona transmissions, and many of those people charged by McCarthy sought refuge in the Soviet Union and China.

The Tydings committee was organized ostensibly to evaluate the claims by McCarthy, but instead it's primary purpose was to obfuscate the record and discredit McCarthy's work, by claiming that all the names McCarthy had came from the "Lee List"

And as for the flouride assertion, I say the same to you as I said to Gadawg PROVE IT.  I'm willing to admit I'm wrong if you can provide some substantial proof, not just another claim by someone who hated JM and wanted to pile on.  And it's not enough to say that Roy Cohn, who was legal counsel to Sen. Joseph McCarthy during the anti-Communist Senate investigations of the 1950s, *would later* become a member of the John Birch Society, and that since the JBS warned about flouride in the water that, therefore McCarthy did also.


----------



## ConHog

American Horse said:


> ConHog said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> American Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> Joe McCarthy had nothing to do with any of that Hollywood hullabaloo.  That was all part of the work of the HUAC (House Un-American Activities Committee) and Joseph McCarthy was a US Senator, and did not work or coordinate with the house committee. None of these people who were "blacklisted" were named by Joseph McCarthy.  Whatever blacklisting that occurred came as a result of certain large Hollywood producers and moguls who wanted to be sure their industry was not infiltrated by communists.
> 
> It's too bad you don't challenge anything you hear on the subject.
> 
> Prove what you say.  And by the way, prove what you said in another thread that McCarthy said that the communists were poisoning our water supply with fluoride.
> 
> Heres what you said in THIS THREAD
> 
> 
> I repeat my challenge:  Show me some evidence, even a credible link that Joe McCarthy ever *stated that.* Anything will do; I want to see it. So document it; give us a link. Come on! Do it!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are wrong in saying that McCarthy had nothing to do with the who communist investigations. Of course he wasn't involved with a House committee. However the Senate also had hearings , Tydings Committee, feel free to read about it.
> 
> Tydings Committee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> As for fluoride, yes MacCarthy led the charge of people who believed it was a communist plot. The man was a delusional prick.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Of course the Senate had hearings in the form of the Tydings hearings which preceded McCarthy, but I repeat that McCarthy had nothing to do with the Hollywood Blacklisting.
> 
> And as for the flouride assertion, I say the same to you as I said to Gawdog PROVE IT.  I'm willing to admit I'm wrong if you can provide some substantial proof, not just another claim by someone who hated JM and wanted to pile on.  And it's not enough to say that Roy Cohn, who was legal counsel to Sen. Joseph McCarthy during the anti-Communist Senate investigations of the 1950s, *would later* become a member of the John Birch Society, and that since the JBS warned about flouride in the water that, therefore McCarthy did also.
Click to expand...


The Tydings Committee did not precede McCarthy, in fact it was created to look into the charges he was throwing around.

This is a pretty good link to read

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...lT4PBmfag&sig2=7J3ESd0f7ymEWePvHo32-g&cad=rja

but if you really want a look into the nutbag that was joe mccarthy, i recommended

A conspiracy so immense: the world ... - Google Books


----------



## American Horse

ConHog said:


> American Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ConHog said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are wrong in saying that McCarthy had nothing to do with the who communist investigations. Of course he wasn't involved with a House committee. However the Senate also had hearings , Tydings Committee, feel free to read about it.
> 
> Tydings Committee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> As for fluoride, yes MacCarthy led the charge of people who believed it was a communist plot. The man was a delusional prick.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course the Senate had hearings in the form of the Tydings hearings which preceded McCarthy, but I repeat that McCarthy had nothing to do with the Hollywood Blacklisting.
> 
> And as for the flouride assertion, I say the same to you as I said to Gawdog PROVE IT.  I'm willing to admit I'm wrong if you can provide some substantial proof, not just another claim by someone who hated JM and wanted to pile on.  And it's not enough to say that Roy Cohn, who was legal counsel to Sen. Joseph McCarthy during the anti-Communist Senate investigations of the 1950s, *would later* become a member of the John Birch Society, and that since the JBS warned about flouride in the water that, therefore McCarthy did also.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Tydings Committee did not precede McCarthy, in fact it was created to look into the charges he was throwing around.
> 
> This is a pretty good link to read
> 
> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...lT4PBmfag&sig2=7J3ESd0f7ymEWePvHo32-g&cad=rja
> 
> but if you really want a look into the nutbag that was joe mccarthy, i recommended
> 
> A conspiracy so immense: the world ... - Google Books
Click to expand...


I have read a great deal critical of McCarthy.  Now I'm reading M. Stanton Evans scholarly work with 60 pages of notes, appendix, and index "Blacklisted by History" 

Also Arthur Herman's "Joseph McCarthy (Re-examining the Life and Legacy of America's most hated senator) 62 pages of notes, appendix, and index which give fair treatment to the subject; he is not a JM fan.

Also Herbert Romerstein's and Eric Breindel's "The Venona Secrets" 145 pages of notes, appendix, and index 

I agree the Tydings Senate Committe was organized to quash McCarthy's charges, and not to investigate any of those charges.


----------



## American Horse

Should I not hold my breath for documentation of the flouride claim?

I know that McCarthy sank into alcoholism after his censure in the Senate.  I wonder how many of today's political heroes could stand up to the kind of attacks he withstood, and not develop some sort of dependency problem?


----------



## ConHog

American Horse said:


> Should I not hold my breath for documentation of the flouride claim?
> 
> I know that McCarthy sank into alcoholism after his censure in the Senate.  I wonder how many of today's political heroes could stand up to the kind of attacks he withstood, and not develop some sort of dependency problem?



The book I suggested goes into that part some and includes the quote. I can't find it on the internet though.


----------



## Father Time

ConHog said:


> American Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Joe McCarthy was an alcoholic that fabricated everything he touched.
> My uncle was a construction worker in California working for movie studios. McCarthy labeled him and nundreds of others as communists without any evidence to support it. Uncle Bill and all the others were black listed and never worked another day in that industry. Thousands in the movie industry were blacklisted as communists.
> Name one that was right.
> Sure, McCarthy pointed out there were communists around. Well DUH. Even a blind squirrell finds a nut every once in a while.
> You people will believe anything and are too young to know any better.
> 
> 
> 
> Joe McCarthy had nothing to do with any of that Hollywood hullabaloo.  That was all part of the work of the HUAC (House Un-American Activities Committee) and Joseph McCarthy was a US Senator, and did not work or coordinate with the house committee. None of these people who were "blacklisted" were named by Joseph McCarthy.  Whatever blacklisting that occurred came as a result of certain large Hollywood producers and moguls who wanted to be sure their industry was not infiltrated by communists.
> 
> It's too bad you don't challenge anything you hear on the subject.
> 
> Prove what you say.  And by the way, prove what you said in another thread that McCarthy said that the communists were poisoning our water supply with fluoride.
> 
> Heres what you said in THIS THREAD
> 
> 
> 
> If you do not know that Joe *McCarthy stated himself that vaccinations, fluoridation of water and the government funding mental health clinic*  then you are in denial. He said it and that is documented fact.
> So you condone slandering hundreds of innocent people because he "sounded the alarm"?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I repeat my challenge:  Show me some evidence, even a credible link that Joe McCarthy ever *stated that.* Anything will do; I want to see it. So document it; give us a link. Come on! Do it!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are wrong in saying that McCarthy had nothing to do with the who communist investigations. Of course he wasn't involved with a House committee. However the Senate also had hearings , Tydings Committee, feel free to read about it.
> 
> Tydings Committee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> As for fluoride, yes MacCarthy led the charge of people who believed it was a communist plot. The man was a delusional prick.
Click to expand...


I always thought that was just a parody from Dr. Strangelove.


----------



## elvis

Father Time said:


> ConHog said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> American Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> Joe McCarthy had nothing to do with any of that Hollywood hullabaloo.  That was all part of the work of the HUAC (House Un-American Activities Committee) and Joseph McCarthy was a US Senator, and did not work or coordinate with the house committee. None of these people who were "blacklisted" were named by Joseph McCarthy.  Whatever blacklisting that occurred came as a result of certain large Hollywood producers and moguls who wanted to be sure their industry was not infiltrated by communists.
> 
> It's too bad you don't challenge anything you hear on the subject.
> 
> Prove what you say.  And by the way, prove what you said in another thread that McCarthy said that the communists were poisoning our water supply with fluoride.
> 
> Heres what you said in THIS THREAD
> 
> 
> I repeat my challenge:  Show me some evidence, even a credible link that Joe McCarthy ever *stated that.* Anything will do; I want to see it. So document it; give us a link. Come on! Do it!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are wrong in saying that McCarthy had nothing to do with the who communist investigations. Of course he wasn't involved with a House committee. However the Senate also had hearings , Tydings Committee, feel free to read about it.
> 
> Tydings Committee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> As for fluoride, yes MacCarthy led the charge of people who believed it was a communist plot. The man was a delusional prick.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I always thought that was just a parody from Dr. Strangelove.
Click to expand...


no it was a real conspiracy theory.  funny you should mention strangelove.  I'm watching the shining right now.


----------



## Modbert

Father Time said:


> I always thought that was just a parody from Dr. Strangelove.



Life is truly stranger than fiction.


----------



## ConHog

Father Time said:


> ConHog said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> American Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> Joe McCarthy had nothing to do with any of that Hollywood hullabaloo.  That was all part of the work of the HUAC (House Un-American Activities Committee) and Joseph McCarthy was a US Senator, and did not work or coordinate with the house committee. None of these people who were "blacklisted" were named by Joseph McCarthy.  Whatever blacklisting that occurred came as a result of certain large Hollywood producers and moguls who wanted to be sure their industry was not infiltrated by communists.
> 
> It's too bad you don't challenge anything you hear on the subject.
> 
> Prove what you say.  And by the way, prove what you said in another thread that McCarthy said that the communists were poisoning our water supply with fluoride.
> 
> Heres what you said in THIS THREAD
> 
> 
> I repeat my challenge:  Show me some evidence, even a credible link that Joe McCarthy ever *stated that.* Anything will do; I want to see it. So document it; give us a link. Come on! Do it!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are wrong in saying that McCarthy had nothing to do with the who communist investigations. Of course he wasn't involved with a House committee. However the Senate also had hearings , Tydings Committee, feel free to read about it.
> 
> Tydings Committee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> As for fluoride, yes MacCarthy led the charge of people who believed it was a communist plot. The man was a delusional prick.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I always thought that was just a parody from Dr. Strangelove.
Click to expand...


no there was a real scare about it in the late 40s early 50s. and it is attributed to McCarthyism. There is an actual quote from McCarthy in the book i linked to , but it is second hand and honestly is the only quote ive seen from him but even if he didn't actually condone it he most definitely stirred the embers to create an environment for those kinda weirdo theories.


----------



## American Horse

ConHog said:


> Father Time said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ConHog said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are wrong in saying that McCarthy had nothing to do with the who communist investigations. Of course he wasn't involved with a House committee. However the Senate also had hearings , Tydings Committee, feel free to read about it.
> 
> Tydings Committee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> As for fluoride, yes MacCarthy led the charge of people who believed it was a communist plot. The man was a delusional prick.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I always thought that was just a parody from Dr. Strangelove.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> no there was a real scare about it in the late 40s early 50s. and it is attributed to McCarthyism. There is an actual quote from McCarthy in the book i linked to , but it is second hand and honestly is the only quote ive seen from him but even if he didn't actually condone it he most definitely stirred the embers to create an environment for those kinda weirdo theories.
Click to expand...


But that's indirect and imputed, not substantial; actually only innuendo.


----------



## American Horse

By they way there was no real scare about flouridated water in the 40's and 50's but there was some talk about it by phamphleteers in the 60's.  I say not a real scare, because we had our water flouridated, and there was and still is some argument about its efficacy and value, but not something a lot of people took seriously.

I would like to ask, anyone following this thread right now: did you get under your desk in school, grade or secondary for bomb drills?  I mean YOU. not that you heard it and took it as gospel that it happened.  I was in school between 1947 to 1959, and I never did.  My son was in school between 1975 and 1992 and he never did.


----------



## ConHog

American Horse said:


> ConHog said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> American Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> Should I not hold my breath for documentation of the flouride claim?
> 
> I know that McCarthy sank into alcoholism after his censure in the Senate.  I wonder how many of today's political heroes could stand up to the kind of attacks he withstood, and not develop some sort of dependency problem?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The book I suggested goes into that part some and includes the quote. I can't find it on the internet though.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Please research that for me, take another look, and report whether or not it is credible, or just a "quote" by some third party.  I have done considerable searching on that very subject and have come up empty.
> 
> Since you have the book there must be some mention of the source, a persons name or an organization perhaps?  I will look into all your references, and buy them if I have to, but I'll sample them one at a time. It would help if you pin-pointed which of the two books you referenced. Would you say it was the most credible, has notes with primary sources for instance?
> 
> I plan on following this to its source.
Click to expand...


I honestly haven't read it in years and can't just off the top of my head comment on the source of that information. The book itself was pretty credible though, I remember that. it's on my bookshelf right now, but I don't feel like researching it at this moment, I will though. 

and this

A conspiracy so immense: the world ... - Google Books

is the book I was referring to.

Even though my degree is in post civil war US history, I more focused on the military aspect of things, for obvious reasons, but I did study this part of history quite a bit to.


----------



## American Horse

ConHog said:


> and this
> 
> A conspiracy so immense: the world ... - Google Books
> 
> is the book I was referring to.
> 
> Even though my degree is in post civil war US history, I more focused on the military aspect of things, for obvious reasons, but I did study this part of history quite a bit to.



I just bought the book, used and I'll have it on the 16th.  It looks interesting.


----------



## ConHog

American Horse said:


> By they way there was no real scare about flouridated water in the 40's and 50's but there was some talk about it by phamphleteers in the 60's.  I say not a real scare, because we had our water flouridated, and there was and still is some argument about its efficacy and value, but not something a lot of people took seriously.
> 
> I would like to ask, anyone following this thread right now: did you get under your desk in school, grade or secondary for bomb drills?  I mean YOU. not that you heard it and took it as gospel that it happened.  I was in school between 1947 to 1959, and I never did.  My son was in school between 1975 and 1992 and he never did.



Those drills DiD happen in some areas. My parents went to HS in CA in the 60s and they did have those drills. As if a fiber board desk would stop an atomic bomb ROFL.


----------



## editec

McCarthey did more to destroy the Republican party than anyone on earth.

He also destroyed the State Department's ability to really report on Asia at just the time that the USA needed the old hands who understood China and SE asia.

It took the GOP nearly 30 years to recover from that man.

He ruined a lot of good people's careers, and the chilling effect of that persisted for decades.

Half the reason we so screwed up in VietNam was people who should have known better were afraid to tell the truth about what a mess that nation was.

And we have McCarthy's ghost to thank for that.


----------



## JakeStarkey

American Horse said:


> By they way there was no real scare about flouridated water in the 40's and 50's but there was some talk about it by phamphleteers in the 60's.  I say not a real scare, because we had our water flouridated, and there was and still is some argument about its efficacy and value, but not something a lot of people took seriously.
> 
> I would like to ask, anyone following this thread right now: did you get under your desk in school, grade or secondary for bomb drills?  I mean YOU. not that you heard it and took it as gospel that it happened.  I was in school between 1947 to 1959, and I never did.  My son was in school between 1975 and 1992 and he never did.



You bet.  We practiced in 1959 or 1960, I remember, then in 1962, all of our school practiced getting under the desk.  I have talked to many folks elsewhere in the country did the same thing that October.


----------



## HUGGY

American Horse said:


> By they way there was no real scare about flouridated water in the 40's and 50's but there was some talk about it by phamphleteers in the 60's.  I say not a real scare, because we had our water flouridated, and there was and still is some argument about its efficacy and value, but not something a lot of people took seriously.
> 
> I would like to ask, anyone following this thread right now: *did you get under your desk in school, grade or secondary for bomb drills? * I mean YOU. not that you heard it and took it as gospel that it happened.  I was in school between 1947 to 1959, and I never did.  My son was in school between 1975 and 1992 and he never did.



Yes.  They started shortly after my enrollment in kindergarten in Lake Forest Park elementary, Seattle 1955-59.  Nellies S Milton (Orcas Island) 1957-62.  The drills became sporadic to discontinued with an elevated bump right at the Cuban missle crisis. On Orcas they didn't take the panranoia as seriously.


----------



## editec

FWIW, We ALSO got under our desks during the fabulous 50s in PA.

Here's the amusing part of that excercise..

I lived about 20 miles from Bethlehem steel in Bethlehem PA, and about two miles from a rather large chemical plant (JT Baker Chemicals) which would likely have been targeted.

We were 60 miles North of Philly and 90 miles west of NYC?

So I'm reasonably sure, had a fullscale nuclear war broken out, it might have taken more than a desk to save us.

What we'd have needed was a very deep bunker and about 40,000 years of provisions to wait out the radiation.


----------



## rightwinger

editec said:


> McCarthey did more to destroy the Republican party than anyone on earth.
> 
> He also destroyed the State Department's ability to really report on Asia at just the time that the USA needed the old hands who understood China and SE asia.
> 
> It took the GOP nearly 30 years to recover from that man.
> 
> He ruined a lot of good people's careers, and the chilling effect of that persisted for decades.
> 
> Half the reason we so screwed up in VietNam was people who should have known better were afraid to tell the truth about what a mess that nation was.
> 
> And we have McCarthy's ghost to thank for that.



Absolutely true.

The unwarranted fear of unchecked Communism lead us into Viet Nam when we should have known better. Being labeled "Soft on Communism" was the end of your political career


----------



## Mr. Shaman

CrusaderFrank said:


> I'm only about 35 pages into M. Stanton Evans "Blacklisted by History" and I am livid at the utter gall and tremendous scope of the Leftist outright lies.
> 
> Did you know that many of the original documents that McCarthy based his campaign on are missing?
> 
> As recently as March 1993 someone, we don't know who went into the US National Archives and took the Klaus Memo, a 1946 memo by a State Department official Samuel Klaus implicating Alger Hiss and many others as Communist spies?



American _Patriot_ and _Hero_*??????*






You forgot to mention he was (*also*) a typical burnt-out, Republican-alcoholic.​


> "*Part of Evans&#8217;s appeal is his boast to have unmasked the biases and distortions of previous McCarthy critics*, this author included. He begins by describing a massive Russian spy operation in the United States, drawing his evidence from K.G.B. files as well as portions of the Venona project, a top-secret operation that traced Soviet intelligence traffic during World War II. *Evans leaves the impression that he has uncovered fresh material, suspiciously overlooked until now. In fact, numerous scholars have used these documents to craft a thorough portrait of Communist espionage in Washington, though most believe that the worst of it was over by the late 1940s, when the F.B.I.  began a crackdown on spying and a federal security program was put in place.* If anything, they say, *this evidence serves to reinforce the standard portrait of McCarthy as a bit player in the battle against Communist subversion, a latecomer who turned a vital crusade into a political mud bath.*
> 
> *Evans di$agree$*, claiming that the Communist problem was very much alive in 1950, when the senator first made his charges of treason in high places. He judges McCarthy to be a skilled appraiser of loyalty and disloyalty and blames his errors, as well as those of his top aide, Roy Cohn, on *&#8220;their proclivities for multitasking, and the fact that they carried so much information in their heads.&#8221;* (Those old enough to *remember* this duo will find *the imagery amusing*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) *Most important, Evans buys into the heart of the McCarthy conspiracy*http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/27/books/review/Oshinsky-t.html &#8212; the belief that leftist elements in the Roosevelt and Truman administrations created a foreign policy to advance the spread of world Communism.
> 
> *Fifty years have passed since the senator died of liver failure*, at age 48. The fiercely negative judgments of those who lived through the McCarthy era are widely accepted today for good reason: they ring true. *These judgments tell a cautionary tale, showing how a nation&#8217;s legitimate concern for security in uncertain times can be turned into something partisan, repressive and cruel.* *McCarthy* will *continue* to resonate on *the fringes* of the body politic because the conspiracy he championed &#8212; the disloyalty of powerful elites &#8212; goes back to the founding of our country and beyond."



If you tell the folks at the bookstore you got this book as a gift, they'll probably let you trade-it-in for something a _little_-more-believable.

You *Glenn Beck fans* have *gotta* try to break your conspiracy-addiction. You've (already) proven how expensive it can be*!!*​


----------



## Dr Grump

I love the revisionist history on these boards. Most of the right-wing whackjobs would have us now believe that:

1) Abe Lincoln was a douche
2) FDR was THE problem, not the solution to the depression
3) Ronnie Raygun was one of the best presidents the US has ever seen and brought down the Berlin Wall
4) Joseph McCarthy was a Patriot and Hero.

I predict in the next decade or so, the same people will be saying

1) David Koresh was actually the second coming and we missed the boat
2) And Timothy McVeigh will be spoken in the same breath as Paul Revere, Audie Murphy and George Washington himself.

Do you guys have no shame...

...seriously?


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Once you free your mind from Liberal GroupThink and read original material, you'll see that McCarthyism is another great Progressive lie, on par with FDR's Economic Greatness.

I don't doubt that for a second that 7/8 of the Libs here believe that McCarthy ran the House UnAmerican Activities Comittee


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Dr Grump said:


> I love the revisionist history on these boards. Most of the right-wing whackjobs would have us now believe that:
> 
> 1) Abe Lincoln was a douche
> 2) FDR was THE problem, not the solution to the depression
> 3) Ronnie Raygun was one of the best presidents the US has ever seen and brought down the Berlin Wall
> 4) Joseph McCarthy was a Patriot and Hero.
> 
> I predict in the next decade or so, the same people will be saying
> 
> 1) David Koresh was actually the second coming and we missed the boat
> 2) And Timothy McVeigh will be spoken in the same breath as Paul Revere, Audie Murphy and George Washington himself.
> 
> Do you guys have no shame...
> 
> ...seriously?



FDR Accomplishments: US Unemployment 1933: 24.9, 1934: 21.7%, 1935: 20.1%, 1936: 16.9%, 1937: 14.3%, 1938: 19.0%, 1939: 17.2%. = 19.1% average.

Show me when FDR's New Deal ended the Depression.

Do you have no facts?

SERIOUSLY!


----------



## Mr. Shaman

CrusaderFrank said:


> Think of it, what was supposed to be the last copy of the Memo that was one of the primary motivators for McCarthy to ask about Communist infiltration of US State was *REMOVED FROM THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES IN MARCH 1993.*
> 
> Let's just chew on that for a minute.


When *was* the last time you'd seen your family-"physician"*???*


----------



## Dr Grump

CrusaderFrank said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> 
> I love the revisionist history on these boards. Most of the right-wing whackjobs would have us now believe that:
> 
> 1) Abe Lincoln was a douche
> 2) FDR was THE problem, not the solution to the depression
> 3) Ronnie Raygun was one of the best presidents the US has ever seen and brought down the Berlin Wall
> 4) Joseph McCarthy was a Patriot and Hero.
> 
> I predict in the next decade or so, the same people will be saying
> 
> 1) David Koresh was actually the second coming and we missed the boat
> 2) And Timothy McVeigh will be spoken in the same breath as Paul Revere, Audie Murphy and George Washington himself.
> 
> Do you guys have no shame...
> 
> ...seriously?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FDR Accomplishments: US Unemployment 1933: 24.9, 1934: 21.7%, 1935: 20.1%, 1936: 16.9%, 1937: 14.3%, 1938: 19.0%, 1939: 17.2%. = 19.1% average.
> 
> Show me when FDR's New Deal ended the Depression.
> 
> Do you have no facts?
> 
> SERIOUSLY!
Click to expand...


his overall decrease from 1933 to 1939 was 5.7 percent. And we won't even go into how it was down to 14 percent at one stage. At the end of the day almost a quarter of the population was unemployed when he took office. It was under a fifth by the time WWII started. There was a reason he was voted in FOUR times....

Show me how that is bad....

...and don't even get me started on how he INHERITED the mess...That's right CF, it wasn't his mess to begin with, but the way you Cons like to pass the buck when the shit hits the fan, is no surprise to anybody with a modicum of intelligence...


----------



## Mr. Shaman

Dr Grump said:


> I love the revisionist history on these boards.


When it comes to their desperate-*need* for notoriety, people will (even) *mimic their favorite carnival side-show!!*


----------



## Mr. Shaman

CrusaderFrank said:


> Once you free your mind from Liberal GroupThink and read original material, you'll see that McCarthyism is another great Progressive lie, on par with FDR's Economic Greatness.


----------



## editec

Dr Grump said:


> I love the revisionist history on these boards. Most of the right-wing whackjobs would have us now believe that:
> 
> 1) Abe Lincoln was a douche
> 2) FDR was THE problem, not the solution to the depression
> 3) Ronnie Raygun was one of the best presidents the US has ever seen and brought down the Berlin Wall
> 4) Joseph McCarthy was a Patriot and Hero.
> 
> I predict in the next decade or so, the same people will be saying
> 
> 1) David Koresh was actually the second coming and we missed the boat
> 2) And Timothy McVeigh will be spoken in the same breath as Paul Revere, Audie Murphy and George Washington himself.
> 
> Do you guys have no shame...
> 
> ...seriously?


 
No, the answer to that is that _they don't_.

Bear in mind that many of these people hate intellectualism generally, so naturally anything that is well understood they deny..mostly out of spite, I sometimes think.

McCarthy was a human piece of excrement, folks.  Ike hated him, as did most Republicans of that day.

He practically insured that the GOP was marginalized and dismissed by the American public until Reagan took office.

It is to the credit of Margaret Chase Smith (Republican- Maine) for finally standing up to him in the Senate.

But by that time his lying methods had so stripped the government of good people, long time hands at foreign policy, people who truly understood what we were facing, that American foriegn policy for the next thirty years was vapid and senseless.

ANYBODY who warned us that the Chinese communists were going to win their civil war against Chang Kia Shek HE ACCUSED of being _SOFT_ on communism.  He wrecked the careers of precisely the people we needed in government and his actions had a chilling effect on people who could have told us the truth, too.

Meanwhile the brave souls in the house and Senate hid in terror from that guy..._those worthless fucks!_

That man did more damage to this nation than any traitor to this nationever has.

Leave to the clueless, angry, right wing ignoramouses on this board to think that drunken scum was hero.


----------



## JakeStarkey

"... ._those worthless fucks!_" who defend McCarthy here.


----------



## American Horse

JakeStarkey said:


> "... ._those worthless fucks!_" who defend McCarthy here.



So...people who don't share your view and the "popular wisdom" are worthless fucks.  How courageous!  That's what you think of fair debate on a sensitive subject.

The courage lies with those who question, not with those who go with the flow.  That's the easy path.  
Almost high schoolish in its model of conformism.  
Gutless.


----------



## jillian

editec said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> 
> I love the revisionist history on these boards. Most of the right-wing whackjobs would have us now believe that:
> 
> 1) Abe Lincoln was a douche
> 2) FDR was THE problem, not the solution to the depression
> 3) Ronnie Raygun was one of the best presidents the US has ever seen and brought down the Berlin Wall
> 4) Joseph McCarthy was a Patriot and Hero.
> 
> I predict in the next decade or so, the same people will be saying
> 
> 1) David Koresh was actually the second coming and we missed the boat
> 2) And Timothy McVeigh will be spoken in the same breath as Paul Revere, Audie Murphy and George Washington himself.
> 
> Do you guys have no shame...
> 
> ...seriously?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, the answer to that is that _they don't_.
> 
> Bear in mind that many of these people hate intellectualism generally, so naturally anything that is well understood they deny..mostly out of spite, I sometimes think.
> 
> McCarthy was a human piece of excrement, folks.  Ike hated him, as did most Republicans of that day.
> 
> He practically insured that the GOP was marginalized and dismissed by the American public until Reagan took office.
> 
> It is to the credit of Margaret Chase Smith (Republican- Maine) for finally standing up to him in the Senate.
> 
> But by that time his lying methods had so stripped the government of good people, long time hands at foreign policy, people who truly understood what we were facing, that American foriegn policy for the next thirty years was vapid and senseless.
> 
> ANYBODY who warned us that the Chinese communists were going to win their civil war against Chang Kia Shek HE ACCUSED of being _SOFT_ on communism.  He wrecked the careers of precisely the people we needed in government and his actions had a chilling effect on people who could have told us the truth, too.
> 
> Meanwhile the brave souls in the house and Senate hid in terror from that guy..._those worthless fucks!_
> 
> That man did more damage to this nation than any traitor to this nationever has.
> 
> Leave to the clueless, angry, right wing ignoramouses on this board to think that drunken scum was hero.
Click to expand...


^^^^^^^^^^^

consider this the USMB version of re-tweeting....

well said, both.

and true.


----------



## JakeStarkey

American Horse's sophomoric defense of the indefensible is risible.  McCarthy was one of the worst leaders in American history and caused tremendous damage.  His idea of "fair debate" is to rehabilitate McCarthy(look at PC's attempts to redefine history by ignoring history and the reputable facts in this event), regardless the evidence.

Yes, I will oppose such McCarthy revision by the far right demagogues and propagandists for what it is: a determined revision of history for political opportunity, that is not supported by the facts.


----------



## rightwinger

Dr Grump said:


> I love the revisionist history on these boards. Most of the right-wing whackjobs would have us now believe that:
> 
> 1) Abe Lincoln was a douche
> 2) FDR was THE problem, not the solution to the depression
> 3) Ronnie Raygun was one of the best presidents the US has ever seen and brought down the Berlin Wall
> 4) Joseph McCarthy was a Patriot and Hero.
> 
> I predict in the next decade or so, the same people will be saying
> 
> 1) David Koresh was actually the second coming and we missed the boat
> 2) And Timothy McVeigh will be spoken in the same breath as Paul Revere, Audie Murphy and George Washington himself.
> 
> Do you guys have no shame...
> 
> ...seriously?




Welcome to the bizzarro world of present day Republicans...

Black is white, good is bad


----------



## American Horse

JakeStarkey said:


> American Horse's sophomoric defense of the indefensible is risible.  McCarthy was one of the worst leaders in American history and caused tremendous damage.  His idea of "fair debate" is to rehabilitate McCarthy(look at PC's attempts to redefine history by ignoring history and the reputable facts in this event), regardless the evidence.
> 
> Yes, I will oppose such McCarthy revision by the far right demagogues and propagandists for what it is: a determined revision of history for political opportunity, that is not supported by the facts.



Unlike you, I try to add something to the conversation; you attempt to nullify or quell it with slurs. 

I attempt to post substantive responses, not just insults to provoke people.  When I challenge, I challenge with facts on my side, not &#8220;sophomoric&#8221; put downs; such as calling legitimate posters &#8220;worthless fucks&#8221; because they take an unpopular stand on a subject worthy of real discussion.

Anyone wanting to check or compare the quality of posts is free to look back on this thread.  

A substantive post of mine in an earlier thread on this same topic can be seen 
HERE 
or 
HERE for review.


----------



## JakeStarkey

American Horse said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> American Horse's sophomoric defense of the indefensible is risible.  McCarthy was one of the worst leaders in American history and caused tremendous damage.  His idea of "fair debate" is to rehabilitate McCarthy(look at PC's attempts to redefine history by ignoring history and the reputable facts in this event), regardless the evidence.
> 
> Yes, I will oppose such McCarthy revision by the far right demagogues and propagandists for what it is: a determined revision of history for political opportunity, that is not supported by the facts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unlike you, I try to add something to the conversation; you attempt to nullify or quell it with slurs.
> 
> I attempt to post substantive responses, not just insults to provoke people.  When I challenge, I challenge with facts on my side, not sophomoric put downs; such as calling legitimate posters worthless fucks because they take an unpopular stand on a subject worthy of real discussion.
> 
> Anyone wanting to check or compare the quality of posts is free to look back on this thread.
> 
> A substantive post of mine in an earlier thread on this same topic can be seen
> HERE
> or
> HERE for review.
Click to expand...


Pointing out the inaccuracies and wrongs of the far right propagandist trying to revise the injuries brought upon the Republic by Joe McCarthy is not "slurs" and is the start point for a real discussion of the matter.


----------



## American Horse

JakeStarkey said:


> Pointing out the inaccuracies and wrongs of the far right propagandist trying to revise the injuries brought upon the Republic by Joe McCarthy is not "slurs" and is the start point for a real discussion of the matter.


Then why the heck don't you do just that, instead of posting drive by attacks with only opinion to back them up? Do the work!

Edit:  I repeat:  is &#8220;worthless fucks&#8221; a piece of your work?  obviously so.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Dr Grump said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> 
> I love the revisionist history on these boards. Most of the right-wing whackjobs would have us now believe that:
> 
> 1) Abe Lincoln was a douche
> 2) FDR was THE problem, not the solution to the depression
> 3) Ronnie Raygun was one of the best presidents the US has ever seen and brought down the Berlin Wall
> 4) Joseph McCarthy was a Patriot and Hero.
> 
> I predict in the next decade or so, the same people will be saying
> 
> 1) David Koresh was actually the second coming and we missed the boat
> 2) And Timothy McVeigh will be spoken in the same breath as Paul Revere, Audie Murphy and George Washington himself.
> 
> Do you guys have no shame...
> 
> ...seriously?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FDR Accomplishments: US Unemployment 1933: 24.9, 1934: 21.7%, 1935: 20.1%, 1936: 16.9%, 1937: 14.3%, 1938: 19.0%, 1939: 17.2%. = 19.1% average.
> 
> Show me when FDR's New Deal ended the Depression.
> 
> Do you have no facts?
> 
> SERIOUSLY!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> his overall decrease from 1933 to 1939 was 5.7 percent. And we won't even go into how it was down to 14 percent at one stage. At the end of the day almost a quarter of the population was unemployed when he took office. It was under a fifth by the time WWII started. There was a reason he was voted in FOUR times....
> 
> Show me how that is bad....
> 
> ...and don't even get me started on how he INHERITED the mess...That's right CF, it wasn't his mess to begin with, but the way you Cons like to pass the buck when the shit hits the fan, is no surprise to anybody with a modicum of intelligence...
Click to expand...


An average of 1% reduction per year over 7 years is "Greatness"?

That's is? That why we needed the "New Deal" and total rewrite of the Constitution and our relationship with government for an average reduction of 1% per year.

OK. I'm done playing this game.

FDR SUCKED!

His policies were miserable failures for the people but because the New Deal" was a total rewrite of the Constitution and our relationship with government, he is incorrectly labeled "Great".

His policies were failures. His economic ideas were worse than Hoovers! But unlike Hoover, FDR immortalized his Socialist/Marxist ideas as the New Deal and that's why we've had the 70 year lie about FDR's Greatness.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

This is the best part of the Progressive loss of their Media Monopoly, their lies are laid bare for all to see.

We're not kids in school anymore needed a passing grade so we have to parrot back FDR's Greatness or what a bad bad man Joe McCarthy was.

The facts are just not there at all to back up ANY Lib position on McCarthy: State WAS overrun with Communists and Venona and EVERYTHING since vindicates McCarthy.

But Libs will keep lying because that's how they've been trained.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Nope, I don't have to do the work.  The conclusion has been made some time ago what Senator McCarthy was as a person and as a people's representative.  He was despicable.  The topic does not deserve discussion.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

JakeStarkey said:


> Nope, I don't have to do the work.  The conclusion has been made some time ago what Senator McCarthy was as a person and as a people's representative.  He was despicable.  The topic does not deserve discussion.



Except that the Soviets have demonstrated that they did indeed have Communist spies planted at US State.

Facts are not your friend, Jake.


----------



## American Horse

JakeStarkey said:


> Nope, I don't have to do the work.  The conclusion has been made some time ago what Senator McCarthy was as a person and as a people's representative.  He was despicable.  The topic does not deserve discussion.



That's the best ya got; call 'em names and flee to authority.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

American Horse said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, I don't have to do the work.  The conclusion has been made some time ago what Senator McCarthy was as a person and as a people's representative.  He was despicable.  The topic does not deserve discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's the best ya got; call 'em names and flee to authority.
Click to expand...


It's all they ever had, really.

And now that they don't control the terms of the debate, they're totally fucked.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

American Horse said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, I don't have to do the work.  The conclusion has been made some time ago what Senator McCarthy was as a person and as a people's representative.  He was despicable.  The topic does not deserve discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's the best ya got; call 'em names and flee to authority.
Click to expand...


I'll quote from their Bible: wikipedia

Venona project - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"With the first break into the code, Venona revealed the existence of Soviet espionage[15] at Los Alamos National Laboratories.[16] Identities soon emerged of American, Canadian, Australian and British spies in service to the Soviet government, including Klaus Fuchs, Alan Nunn May and Donald Maclean, a member of the Cambridge Five spy ring. Others worked in Washington in the State Department, The Treasury, Office of Strategic Services,[17] and even the White House...

The decrypts show that the US and other nations were targeted in major espionage campaigns by the Soviet Union as early as 1942. Among those identified are Julius and Ethel Rosenberg; Alger Hiss; Harry Dexter White,[18] the second-highest official in the Treasury Department; Lauchlin Currie,[19] a personal aide to Franklin Roosevelt; and Maurice Halperin,[20] a section head in the Office of Strategic Services."


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Post 143 will end all Liberal participation in this thread


----------



## JakeStarkey

Not at all.  When the authoritative conclusion has already been determined, and the continued attempts to discredit are always (like this issue) easily defeated, then, no, there is no reason to discuss it again.  That would give the silly side "reasonableness" that it does not deserve.


----------



## rightwinger

CrusaderFrank said:


> American Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, I don't have to do the work.  The conclusion has been made some time ago what Senator McCarthy was as a person and as a people's representative.  He was despicable.  The topic does not deserve discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's the best ya got; call 'em names and flee to authority.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'll quote from their Bible: wikipedia
> 
> Venona project - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> "With the first break into the code, Venona revealed the existence of Soviet espionage[15] at Los Alamos National Laboratories.[16] Identities soon emerged of American, Canadian, Australian and British spies in service to the Soviet government, including Klaus Fuchs, Alan Nunn May and Donald Maclean, a member of the Cambridge Five spy ring. Others worked in Washington in the State Department, The Treasury, Office of Strategic Services,[17] and even the White House...
> 
> The decrypts show that the US and other nations were targeted in major espionage campaigns by the Soviet Union as early as 1942. Among those identified are Julius and Ethel Rosenberg; Alger Hiss; Harry Dexter White,[18] the second-highest official in the Treasury Department; Lauchlin Currie,[19] a personal aide to Franklin Roosevelt; and Maurice Halperin,[20] a section head in the Office of Strategic Services."
Click to expand...


How many of these spies were on McCarthys "list"??

McCarthy took a potential threat and turned it into a political weapon to attack his enemies.  How many spies were actually convicted off of the McCarthy witchunts vs how many innocent lives were destroyed?


----------



## LibocalypseNow

Unfortunately Joe McCarthy's history has been allowed to be written by the Communists in our MSM. Look at who controls the propaganda coming from Hollywood and most of our MSM. There you will find all your answers. Obviously these Communists do not approach his history in a balanced fashion. Gee i wonder why? Take a balanced approach towards his life and you will quickly see that he was a Patriot but maybe not so much a Hero.


----------



## HUGGY

LibocalypseNow said:


> Unfortunately Joe McCarthy's history has been allowed to be written by the Communists in our MSM. Look at who controls the propaganda coming from Hollywood and most of our MSM. There you will find all your answers. Obviously these Communists do not approach his history in a balanced fashion. Gee i wonder why? Take a balanced approach towards his life and you will quickly see that he was a Patriot but maybe not so much a Hero.



You are a hack and an idiot.  I know several people in the "Hollywood" scene and believe this... They are way too busy and interested in making movies and dollars to waste a moment being communists.  You are sooooo fucking stupid ... it just defies all reason.

WHAT A HACK MORON!!!!!!


----------



## Dr.Traveler

LuckyDan said:


> I'm late to The Party, so forgive me if this has been dealt with, but...to whom was McCarthy useful as an idiot?
> 
> Regarding CPUSA - the fact that they were made to look inept by McCarthy in DC and by Reagan in Hollywood does not mean they were harmless.



McCarthy early on served a role very similar to the role that Right Wing Radio serves in the GOP today.  McCarthy could make bombastic claims about the Democrats, which the Republicans in more moderate districts facing tough elections could deny or disavow, but subtly use to get a leg up.  McCarthy was a popular campaigner in the 1950 elections.

McCarthy became a problem with Eisenhower, which is incredibly ironic as Ike was deeply involved with and actively working on plots all over the world to overthrow Communist regimes.  You'd be hard pressed to find a US President that took Communism as a more serious threat than Eisenhower.  McCarthy would refer to Eisenhower as  committing treason in his first year in office.  Ike himself hated the guy.  By 1953 it was the GOP that was leading the charge against him.

So the short story:  Useful GOP stooge to dangerous Senator the GOP worked to bring down.


----------



## jillian

American Horse said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, I don't have to do the work.  The conclusion has been made some time ago what Senator McCarthy was as a person and as a people's representative.  He was despicable.  The topic does not deserve discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's the best ya got; call 'em names and flee to authority.
Click to expand...


how else would one address revisionism and truly creeping evil?

or do we ignore 'authority' when it doesn't suit revisionist lies?


----------



## JakeStarkey

jillian said:


> American Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, I don't have to do the work.  The conclusion has been made some time ago what Senator McCarthy was as a person and as a people's representative.  He was despicable.  The topic does not deserve discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's the best ya got; call 'em names and flee to authority.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> how else would one address revisionism and truly creeping evil?
> 
> or do we ignore 'authority' when it doesn't suit revisionist lies?
Click to expand...


That is the problem with right-wing revisionism (think Political Chic and other loony reactionary hacks).  The hacks will not deal with the real evidence, and (like AH's abominable thesis all topics are open to discussion all the time, no matter how unreasonable the premises are in many cases) absolutely do their damnedest to create an alternate reality with alternate definitions.

These loons cannot be allowed to infect mainstream education.


----------



## jillian

JakeStarkey said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> American Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's the best ya got; call 'em names and flee to authority.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> how else would one address revisionism and truly creeping evil?
> 
> or do we ignore 'authority' when it doesn't suit revisionist lies?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is the problem with right-wing revisionism (think Political Chic and other loony reactionary hacks).  The hacks will not deal with the real evidence, and (like AH's abominable thesis all topics are open to discussion all the time, no matter how unreasonable the premises are in many cases) absolutely do their damnedest to create an alternate reality with alternate definitions.
> 
> These loons cannot be allowed to infect mainstream education.
Click to expand...


i particularly enjoy seeing the pretend constitutionalists suddenly being all for violating someone's freedom to build a place of worship on their own land.


----------



## HUGGY

jillian said:


> American Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, I don't have to do the work.  The conclusion has been made some time ago what Senator McCarthy was as a person and as a people's representative.  He was despicable.  The topic does not deserve discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's the best ya got; call 'em names and flee to authority.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> how else would one address revisionism and truly creeping evil?
> 
> or do we ignore 'authority' when it doesn't suit revisionist lies?
Click to expand...


You are attempting to take away onhe of the most useful tools of the wack whitey rightiy Christian fundimentalists.  This is thougtless and unkind on your part.


----------



## JakeStarkey

jillian said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> how else would one address revisionism and truly creeping evil?
> 
> or do we ignore 'authority' when it doesn't suit revisionist lies?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is the problem with right-wing revisionism (think Political Chic and other loony reactionary hacks).  The hacks will not deal with the real evidence, and (like AH's abominable thesis all topics are open to discussion all the time, no matter how unreasonable the premises are in many cases) absolutely do their damnedest to create an alternate reality with alternate definitions.
> 
> These loons cannot be allowed to infect mainstream education.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> i particularly enjoy seeing the pretend constitutionalists suddenly being all for violating someone's freedom to build a place of worship on their own land.
Click to expand...


I agree with the majorities on two polls.  One, I don't want a mosque built there.  Two, I believe the Muslims have a legal, if not ethical, right to do it.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

jillian said:


> American Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, I don't have to do the work.  The conclusion has been made some time ago what Senator McCarthy was as a person and as a people's representative.  He was despicable.  The topic does not deserve discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's the best ya got; call 'em names and flee to authority.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> how else would one address revisionism and truly creeping evil?
> 
> or do we ignore 'authority' when it doesn't suit revisionist lies?
Click to expand...


Show me the lies.

"With the first break into the code, Venona revealed the existence of Soviet espionage[15] at Los Alamos National Laboratories.[16] Identities soon emerged of American, Canadian, Australian and British spies in service to the Soviet government, including Klaus Fuchs, Alan Nunn May and Donald Maclean, a member of the Cambridge Five spy ring. Others worked in Washington in the State Department, The Treasury, Office of Strategic Services,[17] and even the White House...

The decrypts show that the US and other nations were targeted in major espionage campaigns by the Soviet Union as early as 1942. Among those identified are Julius and Ethel Rosenberg; Alger Hiss; Harry Dexter White,[18] the second-highest official in the Treasury Department; Lauchlin Currie,[19] a personal aide to Franklin Roosevelt; and Maurice Halperin,[20] a section head in the Office of Strategic Services."


----------



## HUGGY

CrusaderFrank said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> American Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's the best ya got; call 'em names and flee to authority.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> how else would one address revisionism and truly creeping evil?
> 
> or do we ignore 'authority' when it doesn't suit revisionist lies?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Show me the lies.
> 
> "With the first break into the code, Venona revealed the existence of Soviet espionage[15] at Los Alamos National Laboratories.[16] Identities soon emerged of American, Canadian, Australian and British spies in service to the Soviet government, including Klaus Fuchs, Alan Nunn May and Donald Maclean, a member of the Cambridge Five spy ring. Others worked in Washington in the State Department, The Treasury, Office of Strategic Services,[17] and even the White House...
> 
> The decrypts show that the US and other nations were targeted in major espionage campaigns by the Soviet Union as early as 1942. Among those identified are Julius and Ethel Rosenberg; Alger Hiss; Harry Dexter White,[18] the second-highest official in the Treasury Department; Lauchlin Currie,[19] a personal aide to Franklin Roosevelt; and Maurice Halperin,[20] a section head in the Office of Strategic Services."
Click to expand...


CHRIISSSAAAKES!!!  Frankie!!!  Where do you get this shit?  National security issues are well in hand by the efforts of the FBI, NSA and the CIA..not to mention the embarrassing investment in "Homeland" security.  Correlating with McCarthy is ridiculous.

I know you are smarter than that ...so what gives?


----------



## CrusaderFrank

HUGGY said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> how else would one address revisionism and truly creeping evil?
> 
> or do we ignore 'authority' when it doesn't suit revisionist lies?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Show me the lies.
> 
> "With the first break into the code, Venona revealed the existence of Soviet espionage[15] at Los Alamos National Laboratories.[16] Identities soon emerged of American, Canadian, Australian and British spies in service to the Soviet government, including Klaus Fuchs, Alan Nunn May and Donald Maclean, a member of the Cambridge Five spy ring. Others worked in Washington in the State Department, The Treasury, Office of Strategic Services,[17] and even the White House...
> 
> The decrypts show that the US and other nations were targeted in major espionage campaigns by the Soviet Union as early as 1942. Among those identified are Julius and Ethel Rosenberg; Alger Hiss; Harry Dexter White,[18] the second-highest official in the Treasury Department; Lauchlin Currie,[19] a personal aide to Franklin Roosevelt; and Maurice Halperin,[20] a section head in the Office of Strategic Services."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> CHRIISSSAAAKES!!!  Frankie!!!  Where do you get this shit?  National security issues are well in hand by the efforts of the FBI, NSA and the CIA..not to mention the embarrassing investment in "Homeland" security.  Correlating with McCarthy is ridiculous.
> 
> I know you are smarter than that ...so what gives?
Click to expand...


I'm not sure you're getting this.

McCarthy claimed that the US government was being subverted by Communists and the Progressives went on a Jihad against him as a result.

With the collapse of the USSR and the release of the Venona Cables, it turns out McCarthy vastly understated the problem


----------



## Synthaholic

Stay tuned for CrusaderFrank's next thread, *"Charles Manson:  Charming Ladies Man Who Was Railroaded By The Corrupt L.A. Police Department"*


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Various items from McCarthy's CV.

I had time to dig back into "Blacklisted by History" and they gave some background info on the man the Progressives claimed was an ignorant ogre.

He grew up in rural Wisconsin as a working farmer. He got wrapped up helping his family and didn't get to High School until he was 20, he completed 4 years of high school in 9 months. He went to Marquette University and put himself through law school. In 1939 he became the youngest state judge in the history of WI.  He was hard working and cleared the backlog of case from 250 down to zero. He often sided with teh women and children in divorse cases and with the "little guy" against large corporate interests.

When WWII came around he was 33 and exempt from the draft, instead he joined the Marines, where he served his country honorably.


----------



## PoliticalChic

CrusaderFrank said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Show me the lies.
> 
> "With the first break into the code, Venona revealed the existence of Soviet espionage[15] at Los Alamos National Laboratories.[16] Identities soon emerged of American, Canadian, Australian and British spies in service to the Soviet government, including Klaus Fuchs, Alan Nunn May and Donald Maclean, a member of the Cambridge Five spy ring. Others worked in Washington in the State Department, The Treasury, Office of Strategic Services,[17] and even the White House...
> 
> The decrypts show that the US and other nations were targeted in major espionage campaigns by the Soviet Union as early as 1942. Among those identified are Julius and Ethel Rosenberg; Alger Hiss; Harry Dexter White,[18] the second-highest official in the Treasury Department; Lauchlin Currie,[19] a personal aide to Franklin Roosevelt; and Maurice Halperin,[20] a section head in the Office of Strategic Services."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CHRIISSSAAAKES!!!  Frankie!!!  Where do you get this shit?  National security issues are well in hand by the efforts of the FBI, NSA and the CIA..not to mention the embarrassing investment in "Homeland" security.  Correlating with McCarthy is ridiculous.
> 
> I know you are smarter than that ...so what gives?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm not sure you're getting this.
> 
> McCarthy claimed that the US government was being subverted by Communists and the Progressives went on a Jihad against him as a result.
> 
> With the collapse of the USSR and the release of the Venona Cables, it turns out McCarthy vastly understated the problem
Click to expand...


"Liberals titter about conservatives imagining Communists under every bed, while they hysterically claim to see racists under every bed.  If, in addition to murdering tens of millions of people, Stalin has maintained  Whites Only water fountains, America would now celebrate a national Joe McCarty Day."
Ann Coulter


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Synthaholic said:


> Stay tuned for CrusaderFrank's next thread, *"Charles Manson:  Charming Ladies Man Who Was Railroaded By The Corrupt L.A. Police Department"*



We'll go one sentence at a time since the scope of the Progressive lie is and has been so overwhelming and we'll use the Progressive Bible, Wikipedia:

"With the first break into the code, Venona revealed the existence of Soviet espionage[15] at Los Alamos National Laboratories..."

Venona project - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Los Alamos National Laboratory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## topspin

frank is proof that college doesn't always widen your horizon of thought.
 wingnut


----------



## CrusaderFrank

topspin said:


> frank is proof that college doesn't always widen your horizon of thought.
> wingnut



Did you want to discuss how Venona confirmed, vindicated and validated McCarthy's central thesis: that the USSR had a robust spy program active within the US Government?


----------



## PoliticalChic

CrusaderFrank said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Stay tuned for CrusaderFrank's next thread, *"Charles Manson:  Charming Ladies Man Who Was Railroaded By The Corrupt L.A. Police Department"*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We'll go one sentence at a time since the scope of the Progressive lie is and has been so overwhelming and we'll use the Progressive Bible, Wikipedia:
> 
> "With the first break into the code, Venona revealed the existence of Soviet espionage[15] at Los Alamos National Laboratories..."
> 
> Venona project - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Los Alamos National Laboratory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Click to expand...


I found this book in my local library. It is both extensive and dispositive...

&#8216;The Sword and the Shield: The Mitrokhin Archives, the History of the  KGB,&#8221; by Christopher Andrew and Vasili Mitrokhin.

1.	This top archives was described by the FBI as &#8220;the most complete and extensive intelligence ever achieved from any source.&#8221;

2.	Vasili Mitrokhin  worked for 30 years in the foreign intelligence archives of the KGB. In 1972 he was made responsible for moving the entire archives to new headquarters in Moscow. But Mitrokhin spent over a decade making notes and transcripts of these classified files. In 1992, British Secret Intelligence Service exfiltrated the defector, and his presence in the west remained secret until the publication of this book.

3.	Mitrokhin named some rather diverse individual in whom Soviet placed high hopes on the eve of WW II: Laurence Duggan (agent &#8217;19,&#8217; later FRANK) in the State Department; Michael Straight (NIGEL), State Department; Martha Dodd Stern (LIZA), daughter of the former US ambassador to Germany, and the wife of Alfred Kaufman Stern (also a Soviet agent); Martha&#8217;s brother William E. Doss, jr. (PRESIDENT), who had run for Congress as a Democrat; Harry Dexter White in the Treasury Department (KASSIR and JURIST); an agent codenamed MORIS, probably John Abt in the Justice Department; Boris Morros (FROST), Hollywood producer; Mary Wolfe Price (KID and DIR), secretary to Walter Lippman, and Henry Buchman (KHOSYAIN, &#8216;employer&#8217 owner of a woman&#8217;s fashion salon in Baltimore.  [p106]

4.	&#8220;*But for the remarkably lax security of the Roosevelt administration*, the damage to NKVD operation might have been much worse than the arrest (May 1941) of (Gayk) Ovakimyan&#8221; [head of NKVD legal residency department]. P.107

5.	&#8220;On September 2, 1939, the day after the outbreak of war in Europe, Whittaker Chambers had told much of what he knew about Soviet espionage in the United States to Adolph Berle, Assistant Secretary of State and President&#8217;s Roosevelt&#8217;s advisor on internal security. Immediately afterwards, Berle drew up a memorandum for the President which listed Alger Hiss, Harry Dexter White and the other leading for whom Chambers acted as courier. One was a leading presidential aide, Lauchlin Currie&#8230;.*Roosevelt, however, was not interested. He seems to have dismissed the whole idea of espionage rings within his administration as absurd.&#8221; p.107*
6.	&#8220;*Henry Wallace, *vice-president during Roosevelt&#8217;s third term in office (1941-1945), said  later that if the ailing Roosevelt had died during that period and he had become President, it had been his intention to make Duggan his Secretary of State and White his Secretary of Tresury&#8230;The fact that Roosevelt survived into&#8230;a fourth term&#8230;deprived Soviet intelligence of what would have been its most spectacular success in penetrating a major Western government.&#8221;  P.107-8

7.  Alger Hiss succeeded in becoming part of the American delegation at Yalta.  *Stalin managed to win the policy debates, mainly about the future of Poland (which had been conceded to Soviet dominance at Tehran) since he was kept informed about classified intelligence. *An idea as to how important Hiss was to Moscow is conveyed by Moscow&#8217;s congratulations to Hiss. Gorsky reported&#8230; in March 1945, after a meeting between Akhmerov and Hiss: &#8216;Recently ALES (Hiss) and his whole group were awarded Soviet decorations. After the Yalta conference, &#8230;passed on to him their gratitude and so on.&#8217; &#8221; &#8216;The Sword and the Shield: The Mitrokhin Archives, the History of the  KGB,&#8221; by Christopher Andrew and Vasili Mitrokhin.p.134 (*quoting the Venona decrypts*)
(emphasis mine)

There is far, far more in the archive.


----------



## Mr Natural

Sen Joe McCarthy: American disgrace and embarrasment


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Alger Hiss and Dexter White should have been executed for treason


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Mr Clean said:


> Sen Joe McCarthy: American disgrace and embarrasment



Stay uninformed, on you it looks good.


----------



## topspin

Frank some Germans pine for Hiltler, so your nutbag love of Joe is Hillarious. Please don't stop. Unless you need a break to check out UFO's.


----------



## Mr Natural

CrusaderFrank said:


> Mr Clean said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sen Joe McCarthy: American disgrace and embarrasment
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stay uninformed, on you it looks good.
Click to expand...


Stay psychotic, on you it looks normal.


----------



## PoliticalChic

Mr Clean said:


> Sen Joe McCarthy: American disgrace and embarrasment



Again, the easily-led brigade fails to ascertain truth, and bathes in a warm bath of  liberal mythology

The Senator was an American hero.

The thrust of liberal misdirection is that it was McCarthyism, more than Soviet espionage or Communism infiltration of government, that was  in the words of the October 23, 1998, NYTimes editorial, a lethal threat to American democracy. This, in the same editorial that admitted that the evidence against Julius Rosenberg, and most likely Alger Hiss, was clear.

The litmus test is fairly simple
If Senator Joseph McCarthy had such a deleterious effect, and ruined so many lives, it should be effortless for you to name a half dozen or so whose lives were so ruined.

1.	If you cannot do so, it clearly casts the lie to your premise.
2.	Ruin does not refer to being insulted. Show actual damages, i.e. imprisoned and later found innocent of the charges or never working again


----------



## CrusaderFrank

topspin said:


> Frank some Germans pine for Hiltler, so your nutbag love of Joe is Hillarious. Please don't stop. Unless you need a break to check out UFO's.



I know this is difficult because all you have in response is an Alinsky #5 (Ridicule with a side of schmear)

So again, one sentence at a time

http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...american-patriot-and-hero-11.html#post2630152

The Soviets themselves admit to a robust spy enterprise within the USA.


----------



## Luissa

> After the war McCarthy ran against Robert La Follette to become Republican  candidate for the senate. As one of his biographers has pointed out, his campaign posters pictured him in "full fighting gear, with an aviator's cap, and belt upon belt of machine gun ammunition wrapped around his bulky torso." He claimed he had completed thirty-two missions when in fact he had a desk job and only flew in training exercises.
> 
> In his campaign, McCarthy attacked La Follette for not enlisting during the war. He had been forty-six when Pearl Harbor had been bombed, and was in fact too old to join the armed services. McCarthy also claimed that La Follette had made huge profits from his investments while he had been away fighting for his country. The suggestion that La Follette had been guilty of war profiteering (his investments had in fact been in a radio station), was deeply damaging and McCarthy won by 207,935 to 202,557. La Follette, deeply hurt by the false claims made against him, retired from politics, and later committed suicide.
> 
> On his first day in the Senate, McCarthy called a press conference where he proposed a solution to a coal-strike that was taking place at the time. McCarthy called for John L. Lewis and the striking miners to be drafted into the Army. If the men still refused to mine the coal, McCarthy suggested they should be court-martialed for insubordination and shot.



Joseph McCarthy : Biography




> The subcommittee first investigated allegations of Communist influence in the Voice of America (VOA), at that time administered by the State Department's United States Information Agency. Many VOA personnel were questioned in front of television cameras and a packed press gallery, with McCarthy lacing his questions with hostile innuendo and false accusations.[63]  A few VOA employees alleged Communist influence on the content of broadcasts, but none of the charges were substantiated. Morale at VOA was badly damaged, and one of its engineers committed suicide during McCarthy's investigation. Ed Kretzman, a policy advisor for the service, would later comment that it was VOA's "darkest hour when Senator McCarthy and his chief hatchet man, Roy Cohn, almost succeeded in muffling it."[63]


Joseph McCarthy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## topspin

Love it
 ghestapo lite Mcarthy still has stodges.


----------



## geauxtohell

The far right's  pathological need to re-write history to acquit McCarthy while convicting FDR is just too fucking hilarious to ignore.


----------



## topspin

I hope they never stop
 but then astroturf will have to take a back seat.


----------



## Luissa

Annie Lee Moss


> (August 9, 1905 &#8211; c. January 15, 1996) was a communications clerk in the US Army Signal Corps in the Pentagon who was accused by United States Senator Joseph McCarthy of being a member of the American Communist Party, and therefore a security risk.[4][5] The highly publicized case was damaging to McCarthy's popularity and influence.






> McCarthy left the hearing room shortly after Moss's testimony began, leaving his chief counsel Roy Cohn  to handle the rest of the questioning. Moss was a small, soft-spoken and seemingly timid woman who appeared to be a far cry from the intellectuals and political activists who were usually the target of McCarthy's investigations. She stated that she rarely read newspapers and hadn't even heard of Communism until 1948. She had difficulty with multi-syllable words when asked to read a document before the committee, and responded "Who's that?" when asked if she knew who Karl Marx  was, evoking laughter from the audience. She denied the charges, saying "Never at any time have I been a member of the Communist Party and I have never seen a Communist Party card," and "I didn't subscribe to the Daily Worker and I wouldn't pay for it."[16]






> Cohn's examination of Moss quickly ran into difficulty. After he noted that a "Communist activist" named Rob Hall was known to have visited Moss's home, it was pointed out (by Robert Kennedy, then the minority counsel for the committee) that there were two Rob Halls in Washington: a known Communist, who was white, and a union organizer, who was African-American. Moss said that the Rob Hall she knew was "a man of about my complexion". As the hearing proceeded, it became clear that both the senators and the spectators were favoring Moss over Cohn and McCarthy. When Cohn asserted that he had corroboration of Markward's testimony from a confidential source, Senator John McClellan rebuked him for alluding to evidence he was not actually presenting.[17] Chairman Karl Mundt ruled that Cohn's comments be stricken from the record. McClellan responded:





> Friedman concludes that Moss most likely had indirect contact with Communists through her cafeteria workers' union, and at most was probably a "casual recruit to the Communist Party, attracted by its social and economic justice politics," and later abandoned any associations with them.


Annie Lee Moss - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

She sounded like a real threat to national security!


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Luissa said:


> After the war McCarthy ran against Robert La Follette to become Republican  candidate for the senate. As one of his biographers has pointed out, his campaign posters pictured him in "full fighting gear, with an aviator's cap, and belt upon belt of machine gun ammunition wrapped around his bulky torso." He claimed he had completed thirty-two missions when in fact he had a desk job and only flew in training exercises.
> 
> In his campaign, McCarthy attacked La Follette for not enlisting during the war. He had been forty-six when Pearl Harbor had been bombed, and was in fact too old to join the armed services. McCarthy also claimed that La Follette had made huge profits from his investments while he had been away fighting for his country. The suggestion that La Follette had been guilty of war profiteering (his investments had in fact been in a radio station), was deeply damaging and McCarthy won by 207,935 to 202,557. La Follette, deeply hurt by the false claims made against him, retired from politics, and later committed suicide.
> 
> On his first day in the Senate, McCarthy called a press conference where he proposed a solution to a coal-strike that was taking place at the time. McCarthy called for John L. Lewis and the striking miners to be drafted into the Army. If the men still refused to mine the coal, McCarthy suggested they should be court-martialed for insubordination and shot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joseph McCarthy : Biography
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The subcommittee first investigated allegations of Communist influence in the Voice of America (VOA), at that time administered by the State Department's United States Information Agency. Many VOA personnel were questioned in front of television cameras and a packed press gallery, with McCarthy lacing his questions with hostile innuendo and false accusations.[63]  A few VOA employees alleged Communist influence on the content of broadcasts, but none of the charges were substantiated. Morale at VOA was badly damaged, and one of its engineers committed suicide during McCarthy's investigation. Ed Kretzman, a policy advisor for the service, would later comment that it was VOA's "darkest hour when Senator McCarthy and his chief hatchet man, Roy Cohn, almost succeeded in muffling it."[63]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Joseph McCarthy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Click to expand...


History has not been kind to Progressive lies about Joe McCarthy. 

You can keep lying but the fact is, and the Soviets admit, they had a robust spy program throughout the US Government.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Luissa said:


> Annie Lee Moss
> 
> 
> 
> (August 9, 1905  c. January 15, 1996) was a communications clerk in the US Army Signal Corps in the Pentagon who was accused by United States Senator Joseph McCarthy of being a member of the American Communist Party, and therefore a security risk.[4][5] The highly publicized case was damaging to McCarthy's popularity and influence.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> McCarthy left the hearing room shortly after Moss's testimony began, leaving his chief counsel Roy Cohn  to handle the rest of the questioning. Moss was a small, soft-spoken and seemingly timid woman who appeared to be a far cry from the intellectuals and political activists who were usually the target of McCarthy's investigations. She stated that she rarely read newspapers and hadn't even heard of Communism until 1948. She had difficulty with multi-syllable words when asked to read a document before the committee, and responded "Who's that?" when asked if she knew who Karl Marx  was, evoking laughter from the audience. She denied the charges, saying "Never at any time have I been a member of the Communist Party and I have never seen a Communist Party card," and "I didn't subscribe to the Daily Worker and I wouldn't pay for it."[16]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cohn's examination of Moss quickly ran into difficulty. After he noted that a "Communist activist" named Rob Hall was known to have visited Moss's home, it was pointed out (by Robert Kennedy, then the minority counsel for the committee) that there were two Rob Halls in Washington: a known Communist, who was white, and a union organizer, who was African-American. Moss said that the Rob Hall she knew was "a man of about my complexion". As the hearing proceeded, it became clear that both the senators and the spectators were favoring Moss over Cohn and McCarthy. When Cohn asserted that he had corroboration of Markward's testimony from a confidential source, Senator John McClellan rebuked him for alluding to evidence he was not actually presenting.[17] Chairman Karl Mundt ruled that Cohn's comments be stricken from the record. McClellan responded:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Friedman concludes that Moss most likely had indirect contact with Communists through her cafeteria workers' union, and at most was probably a "casual recruit to the Communist Party, attracted by its social and economic justice politics," and later abandoned any associations with them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Annie Lee Moss - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> She sounded like a real threat to national security!
Click to expand...


"With the first break into the code, Venona revealed the existence of Soviet espionage[15] at Los Alamos National Laboratories.[16]"

Venona project - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Soviet spying on American atomic secrets = not funny.  Just ask Julius and Ethel Rosenberg how funny we think it was


----------



## PoliticalChic

Luissa said:


> After the war McCarthy ran against Robert La Follette to become Republican  candidate for the senate. As one of his biographers has pointed out, his campaign posters pictured him in "full fighting gear, with an aviator's cap, and belt upon belt of machine gun ammunition wrapped around his bulky torso." He claimed he had completed thirty-two missions when in fact he had a desk job and only flew in training exercises.
> 
> In his campaign, McCarthy attacked La Follette for not enlisting during the war. He had been forty-six when Pearl Harbor had been bombed, and was in fact too old to join the armed services. McCarthy also claimed that La Follette had made huge profits from his investments while he had been away fighting for his country. The suggestion that La Follette had been guilty of war profiteering (his investments had in fact been in a radio station), was deeply damaging and McCarthy won by 207,935 to 202,557. La Follette, deeply hurt by the false claims made against him, retired from politics, and later committed suicide.
> 
> On his first day in the Senate, McCarthy called a press conference where he proposed a solution to a coal-strike that was taking place at the time. McCarthy called for John L. Lewis and the striking miners to be drafted into the Army. If the men still refused to mine the coal, McCarthy suggested they should be court-martialed for insubordination and shot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joseph McCarthy : Biography
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The subcommittee first investigated allegations of Communist influence in the Voice of America (VOA), at that time administered by the State Department's United States Information Agency. Many VOA personnel were questioned in front of television cameras and a packed press gallery, with McCarthy lacing his questions with hostile innuendo and false accusations.[63]  A few VOA employees alleged Communist influence on the content of broadcasts, but none of the charges were substantiated. Morale at VOA was badly damaged, and one of its engineers committed suicide during McCarthy's investigation. Ed Kretzman, a policy advisor for the service, would later comment that it was VOA's "darkest hour when Senator McCarthy and his chief hatchet man, Roy Cohn, almost succeeded in muffling it."[63]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Joseph McCarthy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Click to expand...


 1.  Although *his judgeship exempted him from military service, McCarthy enlisted *in the Marines and was sworn in as a first lieutenant in August 1942. He served as an *intelligence officer for a bomber squadron *stationed in the Solomon Islands, and also *risked his life by volunteering to fly in the tail-gunner's seat on many combat missions. *Those who quibble about the number of combat missions he flew miss the point - *he didn't have to fly any. *

 The enemies of McCarthy have seized on his good-natured remark about shooting down coconut trees from his tail-gunner's spot (an ABC television movie about McCarthy in the late 1970s was entitled Tail Gunner Joe) *to belittle his military accomplishments*, but the *official record gives the true picture*. Not only were McCarthy's achievements during 30 months of active duty unanimously praised by his commanding officers, but *Admiral Chester Nimitz, commander in chief of the Pacific Fleet, issued the following citation regarding the service of Captain McCarthy: [/B

]For meritorious and efficient performance of duty as an observer and rear gunner of a dive bomber attached to a Marine scout bombing squadron operating in the Solomon Islands area from September 1 to December 31, 1943. He participated in a large number of combat missions, and in addition to his regular duties, acted as aerial photographer. He obtained excellent photographs of enemy gun positions, despite intense anti-aircraft fire, thereby gaining valuable information which contributed materially to the success of subsequent strikes in the area. Although suffering from a severe leg injury, he refused to be hospitalized and continued to carry out his duties as Intelligence Officer in a highly efficient manner. His courageous devotion to duty was in keeping with the highest traditions of the naval service.
Senator Joseph R. McCarthy

2.  There is no evidence that a single person committed suicide because of McCarthy.Often, Raymond Kaplan is claimed to have committed suicide in fear of McCarthy, as a result of a note he left before leaping in front of a truck: When the dogs are set upon you, everything you have done from the beginning of your life is suspect. But, who are the dogs?
 One of McCarthy's first investigations concerned the Voice of America (VOA) and why one of its transmitters had been placed in such a way as to minimize its effectiveness in reaching the enslaved people behind the Iron Curtain.

An employee with the VOA  Raymond Kaplan  died when hit by a truck the day before he was set to testify in the probe. McCarthy Part 4--Annie Lee Moss, VOA, and history insulted

Kaplan was expected to be a friendly committee witness, eager to tell McCarthy of his frustration that some with whom he worked had placed a Voice of America transmitter in such a way as to prevent VOA from reaching the freedom-loving people behind the Iron Curtain, thus rendering it useless. Coulter's Book and Senate Transcripts Prove Feds' Treason

Since Kaplan was opposed to the placement of the transmitters as useless, he was happy to testify. Kaplan was involved in a rancorous battle with VOA, not with McCarthy. 
"Ritchie e-mailed me in 2003 when I reported in NewsMax his failure to give equal billing to testimony that Kaplan was expected to be a friendly witness before McCarthy's panel, eager to tell the senator of his frustration that some with whom he worked had blundered in placement of the transmitter."
Blacklisted by History: McCarthy Part 4, Thursday, November 15, 2007, By Wes Vernon
(emphasis mine throughout)

3. As to military distortions, you must be thinking of Democrat Tom Harkin...

[Tom] Harkin has gotten elected, in part, by claiming to have served in Vietnam. During his service in the Navy, Harkin told Washington Post reporter David Broder, One year was in Vietnam. I was flying F-4s and F-8s on combat air patrols and photo-reconnaissance support missions. I did no bombing. But as the late Senator Barry Goldwater (R.-Arizona) was first to notice, nothing in Harkins military service file showed that he ever served in Vietnam. Challenged by Goldwater, an Air Force General, to explain why he had been awarded neither the Vietnam Service Medal nor the Vietnam Campaign medal (decorations given to everyone who served in the Southeast Asian theater), Harkin changed his story, claiming instead that he had flown combat sorties over Cuba during the 1960s. 

This was yet another Harkin lie. Harkin actually served as a ferry pilot who flew aircraft in need of repair between the Philippines and his base in Atsugi, Japan. Harkin at last acknowledged that he never had flown air patrols in Vietnam; he began describing himself in speeches as a Vietnam era veteran.

The establishment liberal media had never checked Harkins claims about serving in Vietnam because his politics paralleled those of the reporters covering him.
http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=1642


Or possibly Democrat Richard Blumenthal..

At a ceremony honoring veterans and senior citizens who sent presents to soldiers overseas, Attorney General Richard Blumenthal of Connecticut rose and spoke of an earlier time in his life.
We have learned something important since the days that I served in Vietnam, Mr. Blumenthal said to the group gathered in Norwalk in March 2008. And you exemplify it. Whatever we think about the war, whatever we call it  Afghanistan or Iraq  we owe our military men and women unconditional support. 
There was one problem: Mr. Blumenthal, a Democrat now running for the United States Senate, never served in Vietnam. He obtained at least five military deferments from 1965 to 1970 and took repeated steps that enabled him to avoid going to war, according to records. 
But what is striking about Mr. Blumenthals record is the contrast between the many steps he took that allowed him to avoid Vietnam, and the misleading way he often speaks about that period of his life now, especially when he is speaking at veterans ceremonies or other patriotic events.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/18/nyregion/18blumenthal.html*


----------



## Luissa

The Hollywood blacklist&#8212;as the broader entertainment industry blacklist is generally known&#8212;was the mid-twentieth-century list of screenwriters, actors, directors, musicians, and other U.S. entertainment professionals who were denied employment in the field because of their political beliefs or associations, real or suspected. Artists were barred from work on the basis of their alleged membership in or sympathy toward the American Communist Party, involvement in liberal or humanitarian political causes that enforcers of the blacklist associated with communism, and/or refusal to assist investigations into Communist Party activities; some were blacklisted merely because their names came up at the wrong place and time. Even during the period of its strictest enforcement, the late 1940s through the late 1950s, the blacklist was rarely made explicit and verifiable, but it caused direct damage to the careers of scores of American artists, often made betrayal of friendship (not to mention principle) the price for a livelihood, and promoted ideological censorship across the entire industry.

Hollywood blacklist - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Did they ever prove any of the Hollywood Ten were selling secrets or were a national security threat?


----------



## Luissa

CrusaderFrank said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After the war McCarthy ran against Robert La Follette to become Republican  candidate for the senate. As one of his biographers has pointed out, his campaign posters pictured him in "full fighting gear, with an aviator's cap, and belt upon belt of machine gun ammunition wrapped around his bulky torso." He claimed he had completed thirty-two missions when in fact he had a desk job and only flew in training exercises.
> 
> In his campaign, McCarthy attacked La Follette for not enlisting during the war. He had been forty-six when Pearl Harbor had been bombed, and was in fact too old to join the armed services. McCarthy also claimed that La Follette had made huge profits from his investments while he had been away fighting for his country. The suggestion that La Follette had been guilty of war profiteering (his investments had in fact been in a radio station), was deeply damaging and McCarthy won by 207,935 to 202,557. La Follette, deeply hurt by the false claims made against him, retired from politics, and later committed suicide.
> 
> On his first day in the Senate, McCarthy called a press conference where he proposed a solution to a coal-strike that was taking place at the time. McCarthy called for John L. Lewis and the striking miners to be drafted into the Army. If the men still refused to mine the coal, McCarthy suggested they should be court-martialed for insubordination and shot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joseph McCarthy : Biography
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The subcommittee first investigated allegations of Communist influence in the Voice of America (VOA), at that time administered by the State Department's United States Information Agency. Many VOA personnel were questioned in front of television cameras and a packed press gallery, with McCarthy lacing his questions with hostile innuendo and false accusations.[63]  A few VOA employees alleged Communist influence on the content of broadcasts, but none of the charges were substantiated. Morale at VOA was badly damaged, and one of its engineers committed suicide during McCarthy's investigation. Ed Kretzman, a policy advisor for the service, would later comment that it was VOA's "darkest hour when Senator McCarthy and his chief hatchet man, Roy Cohn, almost succeeded in muffling it."[63]
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Joseph McCarthy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> History has not been kind to Progressive lies about Joe McCarthy.
> 
> You can keep lying but the fact is, and the Soviets admit, they had a robust spy program throughout the US Government.
Click to expand...


How am I lying? They proved McCarthy lied during his campaign, and they proved VOA had no communists dealings. 
And didn't we have a Spy program in Russia?

How about the Hollywood Ten and Annie Moss? All she did was buy a magazine.

Do you not believe in Freedom of Speech? Do you like the government controlling what movies you watch, how about what books you read?
Do you agree with burning books?


----------



## PoliticalChic

Luissa said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> 
> Joseph McCarthy : Biography
> 
> 
> 
> Joseph McCarthy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> History has not been kind to Progressive lies about Joe McCarthy.
> 
> You can keep lying but the fact is, and the Soviets admit, they had a robust spy program throughout the US Government.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How am I lying? They proved McCarthy lied during his campaign, and they proved VOA had no communists dealings.
> And didn't we have a Spy program in Russia?
> 
> How about the Hollywood Ten and Annie Moss? All she did was buy a magazine.
> 
> Do you not believe in Freedom of Speech? Do you like the government controlling what movies you watch, how about what books you read?
> Do you agree with burning books?
Click to expand...


1.  According to liberal mythology, Annie Lee Moss, a semi-literate black wash-woman, was hauled before the committee and accused of being a Communist.  Moss, in fact, had been absolutely identified as a Communist Party member  by a reliable FBI informant. (David Oshinsky, A Conspiracy So Immense). She was listed in the Communist Partys records. The Party newspaper, the Daily Worker, was delivered to her home- and followed when she moved. (Rogers v. Communist Party of the United States, Subversive Activities Control Board, September 19, 1958). And, Annie Lee Moss was also working in the Code Room of the Pentagon.  At the hearings, Ms. Moss mentioned that there were three other people named Annie Lee Moss in the Washington, DC phonebook. The press, of course, accepted this and called McCarty a demagogue.

Of course, none of the press looked in the phonebook: there were not three other Annie Lee Moss- just one. At 72 R Street, SW. The same address listed in the Communist Party records. (Thomas C. Reeves, The Life and Times of Joe McCarthy, p.568-569) Even after the hearings, and the Rosenberg Case, the Army rehired her.
The myth was projected by a Broadway play, A Question of Loyalty, in which a phonebook actually had three Moss.

2. Hollywood Blacklisting had nothing to do with McCarthy. The Hollywood Ten were called before the HUAC in 1947.  McCarthy had just been elected to the Senate, and the Alger Hiss exposure, indictment and conviction occurred before McCarthy made his famous 1950 speech in Wheeling, West Virginia, before McCarthy did any investigating of Hollywood. When anti-communism took its toll in Hollywood, the blacklisting took the deadly form of not having ones name in the credits, or living in Paris, or not being able to sell a teleplay for as much as three years. This for folks who had no problem with Ukrainian farmers and their children eating their shoes.


----------



## topspin

The Germans who sill love Hitler = hillarious
 Mcarthy Fans please don't stop loving Joe.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Maybe as many as 10,000 were McCarthy's victims indirectly.  McCarthy may have been caused forty to fifty directly to lose their jobs.  The demagoguery and the defamation of character  by McCarthy became a defamation of American fair play and honest inquiry.  And once again Columbia College's girl from Missouri continues to be the academic party favor for those she opposes.  She can't carry an argument and she can't follow one by her own side.

The very  best defense of McCarthy is Arthur Herman's _Joseph McCarthy, Reexamining the Life and Legacy of America's Most Hated Senator_.  Herman unwittingly reaffirms history's judgment of McCarthy as Public Louse Number One After 1950.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Today the Board has been a particularly vicious one, as we have been revisiting many of the wounds, hurts, and injuries of the bad old days.  Those virtuous members of the right, center, and left back then (who fought off and defeated the far right whacks and reactionaries defenders of sexism, racism, ethnocentrism, nativism, so forth _ad nauseum ad infinitum_), having read the nonsense of the reactionary whacks here, would merely shake their collective head and think, "Been there, fought that, defeated that; this is only the tremors of a dead body nervous last jerking."


----------



## PoliticalChic

JakeStarkey said:


> Maybe as many as 10,000 were McCarthy's victims indirectly.  McCarthy may have been caused forty to fifty directly to lose their jobs.  The demagoguery and the defamation of character  by McCarthy became a defamation of American fair play and honest inquiry.  And once again Columbia College's girl from Missouri continues to be the academic party favor for those she opposes.  She can't carry an argument and she can't follow one by her own side.
> 
> The very  best defense of McCarthy is Arthur Herman's _Joseph McCarthy, Reexamining the Life and Legacy of America's Most Hated Senator_.  Herman unwittingly reaffirms history's judgment of McCarthy as Public Louse Number One After 1950.



OMG- it's the return of JakeStinky...the man who never learns!

"About two hundred people in America were blacklisted from a single frivolous industry. They could still go to Paris or sell real estate of do any number of things, including change their name to get film creditsthey just couldnt work in the movies. That was the only price they paid for shilling for a mass murderer."
Ann Coulter.


----------



## Luissa

> Drew Pearson  immediately launched an attack on Joe McCarthy. He pointed out that only three people on the list were State Department officials. When this list was first published four years ago, Gustavo Duran and Mary Jane Keeney had both resigned from the State Department in 1946. The third person, John S. Service, had been cleared after a prolonged and careful investigation. Pearson also pointed out that none of these people had been members of the American Communist Party. Jack Anderson  asked Pearson to stop attacking McCarthy: "He is our best source on the Hill." Pearson replied, "He may be a good source, Jack, but he's a bad man."



Joseph McCarthy : Biography


----------



## JakeStarkey

So you can't answer it.  We already knew that.  You are merely twisting in the air, girl.  The nice thing is that America is growing younger and darker, more attuned to technology, and looking forward to the future.  They don't care about Joe McCarthy, they don't care about the Tea Party and its woes, they don't care about racism, they don't care about sexism, and they are going to vote the woes of the whack right and the Tea Party into oblivion.


----------



## Luissa

PoliticalChic said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> History has not been kind to Progressive lies about Joe McCarthy.
> 
> You can keep lying but the fact is, and the Soviets admit, they had a robust spy program throughout the US Government.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How am I lying? They proved McCarthy lied during his campaign, and they proved VOA had no communists dealings.
> And didn't we have a Spy program in Russia?
> 
> How about the Hollywood Ten and Annie Moss? All she did was buy a magazine.
> 
> Do you not believe in Freedom of Speech? Do you like the government controlling what movies you watch, how about what books you read?
> Do you agree with burning books?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 1.  According to liberal mythology, Annie Lee Moss, a semi-literate black wash-woman, was hauled before the committee and accused of being a Communist.  Moss, in fact, had been absolutely identified as a Communist Party member  by a reliable FBI informant. (David Oshinsky, A Conspiracy So Immense). She was listed in the Communist Partys records. The Party newspaper, the Daily Worker, was delivered to her home- and followed when she moved. (Rogers v. Communist Party of the United States, Subversive Activities Control Board, September 19, 1958). And, Annie Lee Moss was also working in the Code Room of the Pentagon.  At the hearings, Ms. Moss mentioned that there were three other people named Annie Lee Moss in the Washington, DC phonebook. The press, of course, accepted this and called McCarty a demagogue.
> 
> Of course, none of the press looked in the phonebook: there were not three other Annie Lee Moss- just one. At 72 R Street, SW. The same address listed in the Communist Party records. (Thomas C. Reeves, The Life and Times of Joe McCarthy, p.568-569) Even after the hearings, and the Rosenberg Case, the Army rehired her.
> The myth was projected by a Broadway play, A Question of Loyalty, in which a phonebook actually had three Moss.
> 
> 2. Hollywood Blacklisting had nothing to do with McCarthy. The Hollywood Ten were called before the HUAC in 1947.  McCarthy had just been elected to the Senate, and the Alger Hiss exposure, indictment and conviction occurred before McCarthy made his famous 1950 speech in Wheeling, West Virginia, before McCarthy did any investigating of Hollywood. When anti-communism took its toll in Hollywood, the blacklisting took the deadly form of not having ones name in the credits, or living in Paris, or not being able to sell a teleplay for as much as three years. This for folks who had no problem with Ukrainian farmers and their children eating their shoes.
Click to expand...

I already pointed out she attended meetings and received the magazine. She was never  proven to be a national security risk Is it illegal to belong to the communist party in this county? 

and 2 I never said he was. I was just pointing out how the witch hunt ruined innocent  people's lives. It is not illegal in this country to be a communist. 

Do you not believe in freedom of speech?


----------



## Luissa

Under the Freedom of Information Act, the FBI released her file. She didn't spy for Russia, she attended a few meeting and got a magazine. Do you have a problem with people attending meetings?


----------



## JakeStarkey

She believes in freedom _*from *_speech for herself.


----------



## PoliticalChic

JakeStarkey said:


> So you can't answer it.  We already knew that.  You are merely twisting in the air, girl.  The nice thing is that America is growing younger and darker, more attuned to technology, and looking forward to the future.  They don't care about Joe McCarthy, they don't care about the Tea Party and its woes, they don't care about racism, they don't care about sexism, and they are going to vote the woes of the whack right and the Tea Party into oblivion.



Hey, Stinky, what does "...growing younger and darker,..." mean?

Everything is race?

Oh, you must be a liberal.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Definitions of liberal on the Web:
    * broad: showing or characterized by broad-mindedness; "a broad political stance"; "generous and broad sympathies"; "a liberal newspaper"; "tolerant of his opponent's opinions"
    * having political or social views favoring reform and progress
    * tolerant of change; not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or tradition
    * a person who favors a political philosophy of progress and reform and the protection of civil liberties 

And Republican chair for our region here.  Remember that Republicans pulled Joe McCarthy down.


----------



## topspin

I luv wingnuts, this shit is better than comedy channel


----------



## PoliticalChic

Luissa said:


> Under the Freedom of Information Act, the FBI released her file. She didn't spy for Russia, she attended a few meeting and got a magazine. Do you have a problem with people attending meetings?



"...Annie Lee Moss was also working in the Code Room of the Pentagon...."

Plus 

 "...she attended a few [communist] meetings and got a [subscription to a communist] magazine..." called the Daily Worker...

Did you major in syncretism?

Do you wish to comment on all the other errors that I pointed out in your posts?


----------



## Luissa

PoliticalChic said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe as many as 10,000 were McCarthy's victims indirectly.  McCarthy may have been caused forty to fifty directly to lose their jobs.  The demagoguery and the defamation of character  by McCarthy became a defamation of American fair play and honest inquiry.  And once again Columbia College's girl from Missouri continues to be the academic party favor for those she opposes.  She can't carry an argument and she can't follow one by her own side.
> 
> The very  best defense of McCarthy is Arthur Herman's _Joseph McCarthy, Reexamining the Life and Legacy of America's Most Hated Senator_.  Herman unwittingly reaffirms history's judgment of McCarthy as Public Louse Number One After 1950.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OMG- it's the return of JakeStinky...the man who never learns!
> 
> "About two hundred people in America were blacklisted from a single frivolous industry. They could still go to Paris or sell real estate of do any number of things, including change their name to get film creditsthey just couldnt work in the movies. That was the only price they paid for shilling for a mass murderer."
> Ann Coulter.
Click to expand...

So you agree with the government controlling where you work due to your political beliefs?


----------



## PoliticalChic

JakeStarkey said:


> Definitions of liberal on the Web:
> * broad: showing or characterized by broad-mindedness; "a broad political stance"; "generous and broad sympathies"; "a liberal newspaper"; "tolerant of his opponent's opinions"
> * having political or social views favoring reform and progress
> * tolerant of change; not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or tradition
> * a person who favors a political philosophy of progress and reform and the protection of civil liberties
> 
> And Republican chair for our region here.  Remember that Republicans pulled Joe McCarthy down.



Here is a comment about the Bard College Alger Hiss Chair by Robert Fulford, the Canadian Journalist: History News Network. The article was written in 2004, shortly after Haynes and Klehr wrote their book. Fulford wrote, American leftists insisted for decades that Hiss was falsely condemned. When a mountain of evidence proved the case against him (and many others), the defenders began suggesting that maybe spying actually didn't matter. In the pages of The Nation, the innocence of Hiss was proclaimed obsessively for four decades. When that position finally became untenable, Victor Navasky, long-time editor of The Nation and now also a Columbia journalism professor, asked: 'Espionage, is it really so wrong?' (If he'd thought of that 25 years earlier, his writers could have been saved the trouble of producing all those Hiss-exonerating articles.)

You agree, huh, Stinky?


----------



## JakeStarkey

From wikipedia: "McCarthy and Eisenhower
Dwight D. Eisenhower, 34th President of the United States

During the 1952 Presidential election, the Eisenhower campaign toured Wisconsin with McCarthy. In a speech delivered in Green Bay, Eisenhower declared that while he agreed with McCarthy's goals, he disagreed with his methods. In draft versions of his speech, Eisenhower had also included a strong defense of his mentor, George Marshall, which was a direct rebuke of McCarthy's frequent attacks. However, under the advice of conservative colleagues who were fearful that Eisenhower could lose Wisconsin if he alienated McCarthy supporters, he deleted this defense from later versions of his speech.[52][53] The deletion was discovered by a reporter for The New York Times and featured on their front page the next day. Eisenhower was widely criticized for giving up his personal convictions, and the incident became the low point of his campaign.[52]  //  
With his victory in the 1952 presidential race, Dwight Eisenhower became the first Republican president in 20 years. The Republican party also held a majority in the House of Representatives and the Senate. After being elected president, Eisenhower made it clear to those close to him that he did not approve of McCarthy and he worked actively to diminish his power and influence. Still, he never directly confronted McCarthy or criticized him by name in any speech, thus perhaps prolonging McCarthy's power by giving the impression that even the President was afraid to criticize him directly."


----------



## Luissa

PoliticalChic said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> 
> Under the Freedom of Information Act, the FBI released her file. She didn't spy for Russia, she attended a few meeting and got a magazine. Do you have a problem with people attending meetings?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "...Annie Lee Moss was also working in the Code Room of the Pentagon...."
> 
> Plus
> 
> "...she attended a few [communist] meetings and got a [subscription to a communist] magazine..." called the Daily Worker...
> 
> Did you major in syncretism?
> 
> Do you wish to comment on all the other errors that I pointed out in your posts?
Click to expand...


What error's? I posted an article. That said she was not a spy. I don't care where she worked, she was never proven to be a spy.


> Friedman concludes that Moss most likely had indirect contact with Communists through her cafeteria workers' union, and at most was probably a "casual recruit to the Communist Party, attracted by its social and economic justice politics," and later abandoned any associations with them.[2


From the link I posted before.

So you think the government should fire you for your political beliefs?


----------



## Luissa

So by Political Chic's thinking, Obama can fire any Republican, because he doesn't agree with their political beliefs. Awesome!


----------



## JakeStarkey

PoliticalChic said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Definitions of liberal on the Web:
> * broad: showing or characterized by broad-mindedness; "a broad political stance"; "generous and broad sympathies"; "a liberal newspaper"; "tolerant of his opponent's opinions"
> * having political or social views favoring reform and progress
> * tolerant of change; not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or tradition
> * a person who favors a political philosophy of progress and reform and the protection of civil liberties
> 
> And Republican chair for our region here.  Remember that Republicans pulled Joe McCarthy down.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a comment about the Bard College Alger Hiss Chair by Robert Fulford, the Canadian Journalist: History News Network. The article was written in 2004, shortly after Haynes and Klehr wrote their book. Fulford wrote, American leftists insisted for decades that Hiss was falsely condemned. When a mountain of evidence proved the case against him (and many others), the defenders began suggesting that maybe spying actually didn't matter. In the pages of The Nation, the innocence of Hiss was proclaimed obsessively for four decades. When that position finally became untenable, Victor Navasky, long-time editor of The Nation and now also a Columbia journalism professor, asked: 'Espionage, is it really so wrong?' (If he'd thought of that 25 years earlier, his writers could have been saved the trouble of producing all those Hiss-exonerating articles.)
> 
> You agree, huh, Stinky?
Click to expand...


I believe Hiss was rightfully convicted.  My beliefs and opinions are governed by objective examination, not through a prism of bias, but based on what the evidence indicates.

You don't.  You are first and foremost a demagogue, in  pursuit of a goal for which you will twist the story and the interpretation.  The Nazis and the Communists would have loved you and had a place for you in their propaganda machines.  But this is today, so you work for the whack reactionary right.


----------



## Luissa

And PC, I already said I posted the Black List to show how this country was on a witch hunt, and how it ruined people's lives.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Luissa said:


> So by Political Chic's thinking, Obama can fire any Republican, because he doesn't agree with their political beliefs. Awesome!



Don't let him go after the armed forces like McCarthy!  I have three immediate family members serving as officers who are Republicans.


----------



## Luissa

JakeStarkey said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> 
> So by Political Chic's thinking, Obama can fire any Republican, because he doesn't agree with their political beliefs. Awesome!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't let him go after the armed forces like McCarthy!  I have three immediate family members serving as officers who are Republicans.
Click to expand...


I will think about it.


----------



## Political Junky

Luissa said:


> So by Political Chic's thinking, Obama can fire any Republican, because he doesn't agree with their political beliefs. Awesome!


Awesome.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Luissa said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> 
> So by Political Chic's thinking, Obama can fire any Republican, because he doesn't agree with their political beliefs. Awesome!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't let him go after the armed forces like McCarthy!  I have three immediate family members serving as officers who are Republicans.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I will think about it.
Click to expand...


Be merciful!


----------



## Father Time

CrusaderFrank said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Show me the lies.
> 
> "With the first break into the code, Venona revealed the existence of Soviet espionage[15] at Los Alamos National Laboratories.[16] Identities soon emerged of American, Canadian, Australian and British spies in service to the Soviet government, including Klaus Fuchs, Alan Nunn May and Donald Maclean, a member of the Cambridge Five spy ring. Others worked in Washington in the State Department, The Treasury, Office of Strategic Services,[17] and even the White House...
> 
> The decrypts show that the US and other nations were targeted in major espionage campaigns by the Soviet Union as early as 1942. Among those identified are Julius and Ethel Rosenberg; Alger Hiss; Harry Dexter White,[18] the second-highest official in the Treasury Department; Lauchlin Currie,[19] a personal aide to Franklin Roosevelt; and Maurice Halperin,[20] a section head in the Office of Strategic Services."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CHRIISSSAAAKES!!!  Frankie!!!  Where do you get this shit?  National security issues are well in hand by the efforts of the FBI, NSA and the CIA..not to mention the embarrassing investment in "Homeland" security.  Correlating with McCarthy is ridiculous.
> 
> I know you are smarter than that ...so what gives?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm not sure you're getting this.
> 
> McCarthy claimed that the US government was being subverted by Communists and the Progressives went on a Jihad against him as a result.
> 
> With the collapse of the USSR and the release of the Venona Cables, it turns out McCarthy vastly understated the problem
Click to expand...

How many of Mccarthy's many accusations did Venona back up?

Answer: Not much.

Return to Responses, Reflections and Occasional Papers // Return to Historical Writings


----------



## Father Time

PoliticalChic said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe as many as 10,000 were McCarthy's victims indirectly.  McCarthy may have been caused forty to fifty directly to lose their jobs.  The demagoguery and the defamation of character  by McCarthy became a defamation of American fair play and honest inquiry.  And once again Columbia College's girl from Missouri continues to be the academic party favor for those she opposes.  She can't carry an argument and she can't follow one by her own side.
> 
> The very  best defense of McCarthy is Arthur Herman's _Joseph McCarthy, Reexamining the Life and Legacy of America's Most Hated Senator_.  Herman unwittingly reaffirms history's judgment of McCarthy as Public Louse Number One After 1950.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OMG- it's the return of JakeStinky...the man who never learns!
> 
> "About two hundred people in America were blacklisted from a single frivolous industry. They could still go to Paris or sell real estate of do any number of things, including change their name to get film credits&#8230;they just couldn&#8217;t work in the movies. That was the only price they paid for shilling for a mass murderer."
> Ann Coulter.
Click to expand...


So are you in favor of punishing people for their beliefs rather than their actions?


----------



## PoliticalChic

Luissa said:


> And PC, I already said I posted the Black List to show how this country was on a witch hunt, and how it ruined people's lives.




Again, the easily-led brigade fails to ascertain truth, and bathes in a warm bath of  liberal mythology

The litmus test is fairly simple

If Senator Joseph McCarthy had such a deleterious effect, and ruined so many lives, it should be effortless for you to name a half dozen or so whose lives were so ruined.

1.	If you cannot do so, it clearly casts the lie to your premise.
2.	Ruin does not refer to being insulted. You must show actual damages, i.e. imprisoned and later found innocent of the charges or never working again


----------



## Gadawg73

PoliticalChic said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> 
> And PC, I already said I posted the Black List to show how this country was on a witch hunt, and how it ruined people's lives.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, the easily-led brigade fails to ascertain truth, and bathes in a warm bath of  liberal mythology
> 
> The litmus test is fairly simple
> 
> If Senator Joseph McCarthy had such a deleterious effect, and ruined so many lives, it should be effortless for you to name a half dozen or so whose lives were so ruined.
> 
> 1.	If you cannot do so, it clearly casts the lie to your premise.
> 2.	Ruin does not refer to being insulted. You must show actual damages, i.e. imprisoned and later found innocent of the charges or never working again
Click to expand...


William Harold Walker Jr., my uncle. 
How old are you chic? You obviously do not know the difference between chicken salad and chicken shit on this matter.
ANYONE and EVERYONE labeled a communist during those stages of the Cold War was ruined professionally unless they came from family $.
If you do not know that ole Tail Gunner was a fraud you are either too young to remember or too stupid to know any better.
Or both.


----------



## HUGGY

PoliticalChic said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> 
> And PC, I already said I posted the Black List to show how this country was on a witch hunt, and how it ruined people's lives.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, the easily-led brigade fails to ascertain truth, and bathes in a warm bath of  liberal mythology
> 
> The litmus test is fairly simple
> 
> If Senator Joseph McCarthy had such a deleterious effect, and ruined so many lives, it should be effortless for you to name a half dozen or so whose lives were so ruined.
> 
> 1.	If you cannot do so, it clearly casts the lie to your premise.
> 2.	Ruin does not refer to being insulted. You must show actual damages, i.e. imprisoned and later found innocent of the charges or never working again
Click to expand...


I am certain that if you could figure a reason to you would defend another good republican..Ted Bundy.

PC you are either willfully dishonest or just plain stupid.  You do not know what you are talking about.  Maybe like the previous poster said...you are too young.  It is sad that you defend such a heinous man.  

McCarthy did most certainly ruin HUNDREDS of lives.  Because of his witch hunt and public demonizations just in Hollywood alone at least a hundred writers , actors and others in the industry were black listed ...some overcame the stain brushed on them...most did not.


----------



## rikules

CrusaderFrank said:


> I'm only about 35 pages into M. Stanton Evans "Blacklisted by History" and I am livid at the utter gall and tremendous scope of the Leftist outright lies.
> 
> Did you know that many of the original documents that McCarthy based his campaign on are missing?
> 
> As recently as March 1993 someone, we don't know who
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> went into the US National Archives and took the Klaus Memo, a 1946 memo by a State Department official Samuel Klaus implicating Alger Hiss and many others as Communist spies?



I don't know the truth about mccarthy

I imagine you don't either.

I suspect that you WANT to believe that he was a hero...
whether he was or not...

perhaps his hatred of all things liberal appeals to you?

history (which may NOT be accurate) tells us that he was the rush limbaugh of his day

certainly we don't want communists taking over our government...

but declaring everyone you don't like
or everyone of the wrong political persuasion
to BE a communist is exactly the kind of tactic that a nazi...or a communist...would use!


----------



## Dr Grump

*"About two hundred people in America were blacklisted from a single frivolous industry. They could still go to Paris or sell real estate of do any number of things, including change their name to get film credits&#8230;they just couldn&#8217;t work in the movies. That was the only price they paid for shilling for a mass murderer."
Ann Coulter.*

Exhibit one as to why Anne the Man is a douche and an enemy of freedom....


----------



## rikules

Dr Grump said:


> *"About two hundred people in America were blacklisted from a single frivolous industry. They could still go to Paris or sell real estate of do any number of things, including change their name to get film creditsthey just couldnt work in the movies. That was the only price they paid for shilling for a mass murderer."
> Ann Coulter.*
> 
> Exhibit one as to why Anne the Man is a douche and an enemy of freedom....



I have no doubt that should 1 conservative actor be denied a job because of his political leanings coulter would be singing a vastly different tune "PERSECUTION! DISCRIMINATION"

even today we have conservatives claiming that conservative actors are denied work because of their politics

all evidence to the contrary....
lots of conservative republican actors work regularly....

further...
I have no doubt that if hollywood were run by conservatives ONLY conservatives would be allowed to work and coulter would DEFEND IT!

"they have a RIGHT of ASSOCIATION!  they have a RIGHT to hire WHOEVER THEY WANT TO!"


----------



## Luissa

PoliticalChic said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> 
> And PC, I already said I posted the Black List to show how this country was on a witch hunt, and how it ruined people's lives.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, the easily-led brigade fails to ascertain truth, and bathes in a warm bath of  liberal mythology
> 
> The litmus test is fairly simple
> 
> If Senator Joseph McCarthy had such a deleterious effect, and ruined so many lives, it should be effortless for you to name a half dozen or so whose lives were so ruined.
> 
> 1.	If you cannot do so, it clearly casts the lie to your premise.
> 2.	Ruin does not refer to being insulted. You must show actual damages, i.e. imprisoned and later found innocent of the charges or never working again
Click to expand...


 Are you delusional? These people's lives were ruined because of his accusations. get a fucking clue.
And answer the question. Do you think the government should be able to fire you due to your political beliefs?


----------



## Luissa

He ruined the career of the first guy he ran against, lying about his record and why he didn't sign up for WWII. The man left politics, and  killed himself.


----------



## Father Time

Dr Grump said:


> *"About two hundred people in America were blacklisted from a single frivolous industry. They could still go to Paris or sell real estate of do any number of things, including change their name to get film creditsthey just couldnt work in the movies. That was the only price they paid for shilling for a mass murderer."
> Ann Coulter.*
> 
> Exhibit one as to why Anne the Man is a douche and an enemy of freedom....



"It wasn't that much of an injustice so quit complaining, all it did was cost you your career"


----------



## Cecilie1200

theDoctorisIn said:


> Joe McCarthy the hero: Who cares about all the innocent lives he ruined!
> 
> He saved us from the evil of Dalton Trumbo, Ring Lardner, and Paul Robeson.



WHAT innocent lives he ruined?  And McCarthy had nothing to do with the people you listed, dimwit.


----------



## JakeStarkey

PoliticalChic said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> 
> And PC, I already said I posted the Black List to show how this country was on a witch hunt, and how it ruined people's lives.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, the easily-led brigade fails to ascertain truth, and bathes in a warm bath of  liberal mythology
> 
> The litmus test is fairly simple
> 
> If Senator Joseph McCarthy had such a deleterious effect, and ruined so many lives, it should be effortless for you to name a half dozen or so whose lives were so ruined.
> 
> 1.	If you cannot do so, it clearly casts the lie to your premise.
> 2.	Ruin does not refer to being insulted. You must show actual damages, i.e. imprisoned and later found innocent of the charges or never working again
Click to expand...


You deceptive and delusional moron, PC.  Do you really think you can get away with this crap.  Your hero, Arthur Herman, author of _Joseph McCarthy, Reexamining the Life and Legacy of America's Most Hated Senator_ unwittingly reaffirms history's judgment of McCarthy as Public Louse Number One After 1950.

Herman lists easily two dozen, and the guy is on McCarthy's side.

You can only be writing your crap for love (or your facsimile of it), for no true researcher/writer can write your material.  You are an outright fake.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Cecilie1200 said:


> theDoctorisIn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Joe McCarthy the hero: Who cares about all the innocent lives he ruined!
> 
> He saved us from the evil of Dalton Trumbo, Ring Lardner, and Paul Robeson.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WHAT innocent lives he ruined?  And McCarthy had nothing to do with the people you listed, dimwit.
Click to expand...


He had everything to do with the environment of witch hunting and persecution.  He is as much a skel as the ones who went after them.


----------



## Cecilie1200

LuckyDan said:


> There has been more utter bullshit written and spoken about Joe McCarthy than any other person who ever lived.
> 
> A Great American statesman and patriot. God love him.



That's how it works in the US too much of the time.  You extend yourself to protect and defend this country, and she destroys you as payment.  No good deed ever goes unpunished.


----------



## JakeStarkey

McCarthy was not a hero, but rather an anti-American criminal mind.  His own party pulled him down.


----------



## HUGGY

Cecilie1200 said:


> LuckyDan said:
> 
> 
> 
> There has been more utter bullshit written and spoken about Joe McCarthy than any other person who ever lived.
> 
> A Great American statesman and patriot. God love him.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's how it works in the US too much of the time.  You extend yourself to protect and defend this country, and she destroys you as payment.  No good deed ever goes unpunished.
Click to expand...


Punishment is reading your posts.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Wry Catcher said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> boy... talk about revisionist history...
> 
> i can't decide if it's more evil or more dumb.
> 
> maybe both?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe both, kinda depends on the source.  I have no doubt evil (defined in the sense of any means justifies the goal) when members of the Ministry of Truth (think Limbaugh, Hannity) use the mass media to pervert history.  Dumb when posters on this board repeat the distortions of the spin jockeys, neo-conservatives and loney far right (think Sharon Angle, Michelle Bachman, Rand Paul).
> [I may have coined a term: "Spin Jockey", kinda describes conservative radio 'personalities' rather well]
> toot my own horn, why not!
Click to expand...


While you're farting all over the place, perhaps you could bestir yourself to point out the "distortions" in this case.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Distortions?  That Joe was a Great American?  Are you kidding the universe?  Good night.


----------



## Cecilie1200

LuckyDan said:


> Political Junky said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> YouTube - JOSEPH MCCARTHY VS JOSEPH WELCH
> 
> 
> 
> Love that quote from Welch.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Do you know the context?
Click to expand...


No, they just think they do, for the same reason they think they know the whole story about Rodney King.


----------



## JakeStarkey

PoliticalChic said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> 
> And PC, I already said I posted the Black List to show how this country was on a witch hunt, and how it ruined people's lives.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, the easily-led brigade fails to ascertain truth, and bathes in a warm bath of  liberal mythology
> 
> The litmus test is fairly simple
> 
> If Senator Joseph McCarthy had such a deleterious effect, and ruined so many lives, it should be effortless for you to name a half dozen or so whose lives were so ruined.
> 
> 1.	If you cannot do so, it clearly casts the lie to your premise.
> 2.	Ruin does not refer to being insulted. You must show actual damages, i.e. imprisoned and later found innocent of the charges or never working again
Click to expand...


Not at all, clown.  Where do you come up with setting this bar?  If anyone did this to those on the right, Anne would have a cow.  Take a hike, poseur.


----------



## Cecilie1200

ConHog said:


> American Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Joe McCarthy was an alcoholic that fabricated everything he touched.
> My uncle was a construction worker in California working for movie studios. McCarthy labeled him and nundreds of others as communists without any evidence to support it. Uncle Bill and all the others were black listed and never worked another day in that industry. Thousands in the movie industry were blacklisted as communists.
> Name one that was right.
> Sure, McCarthy pointed out there were communists around. Well DUH. Even a blind squirrell finds a nut every once in a while.
> You people will believe anything and are too young to know any better.
> 
> 
> 
> Joe McCarthy had nothing to do with any of that Hollywood hullabaloo.  That was all part of the work of the HUAC (House Un-American Activities Committee) and Joseph McCarthy was a US Senator, and did not work or coordinate with the house committee. None of these people who were "blacklisted" were named by Joseph McCarthy.  Whatever blacklisting that occurred came as a result of certain large Hollywood producers and moguls who wanted to be sure their industry was not infiltrated by communists.
> 
> It's too bad you don't challenge anything you hear on the subject.
> 
> Prove what you say.  And by the way, prove what you said in another thread that McCarthy said that the communists were poisoning our water supply with fluoride.
> 
> Heres what you said in THIS THREAD
> 
> 
> 
> If you do not know that Joe *McCarthy stated himself that vaccinations, fluoridation of water and the government funding mental health clinic*  then you are in denial. He said it and that is documented fact.
> So you condone slandering hundreds of innocent people because he "sounded the alarm"?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I repeat my challenge:  Show me some evidence, even a credible link that Joe McCarthy ever *stated that.* Anything will do; I want to see it. So document it; give us a link. Come on! Do it!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are wrong in saying that McCarthy had nothing to do with the who communist investigations. Of course he wasn't involved with a House committee. However the Senate also had hearings , Tydings Committee, feel free to read about it.
> 
> Tydings Committee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> As for fluoride, yes MacCarthy led the charge of people who believed it was a communist plot. The man was a delusional prick.
Click to expand...


Tydings had squat to do with Hollywood, dumbass, which your own "source" - Wikipedia?  Really? What the fuck did lame-brain liberals do before Wikipedia? - says.  Note that in the very first sentence, it gives the official name of the subcommittee:  Subcommittee on the Investigation of Loyalty of *State Department Employees*.  Not Hollywood actors and writers; STATE DEPARTMENT EMPLOYEES.

As for the fluoride thing, you were asked for proof.  Restating it does not constitute proof, especially given how stupid you just made yourself look.  Your word for it does not now carry the credibility to be proof that the sky is blue.


----------



## Political Junky

Cecilie1200 said:


> ConHog said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> American Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> Joe McCarthy had nothing to do with any of that Hollywood hullabaloo.  That was all part of the work of the HUAC (House Un-American Activities Committee) and Joseph McCarthy was a US Senator, and did not work or coordinate with the house committee. None of these people who were "blacklisted" were named by Joseph McCarthy.  Whatever blacklisting that occurred came as a result of certain large Hollywood producers and moguls who wanted to be sure their industry was not infiltrated by communists.
> 
> It's too bad you don't challenge anything you hear on the subject.
> 
> Prove what you say.  And by the way, prove what you said in another thread that McCarthy said that the communists were poisoning our water supply with fluoride.
> 
> Heres what you said in THIS THREAD
> 
> 
> I repeat my challenge:  Show me some evidence, even a credible link that Joe McCarthy ever *stated that.* Anything will do; I want to see it. So document it; give us a link. Come on! Do it!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are wrong in saying that McCarthy had nothing to do with the who communist investigations. Of course he wasn't involved with a House committee. However the Senate also had hearings , Tydings Committee, feel free to read about it.
> 
> Tydings Committee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> As for fluoride, yes MacCarthy led the charge of people who believed it was a communist plot. The man was a delusional prick.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Tydings had squat to do with Hollywood, dumbass, which your own "source" - Wikipedia?  Really? What the fuck did lame-brain liberals do before Wikipedia? - says.  Note that in the very first sentence, it gives the official name of the subcommittee:  Subcommittee on the Investigation of Loyalty of *State Department Employees*.  Not Hollywood actors and writers; STATE DEPARTMENT EMPLOYEES.
> 
> As for the fluoride thing, you were asked for proof.  Restating it does not constitute proof, especially given how stupid you just made yourself look.  Your word for it does not now carry the credibility to be proof that the sky is blue.
Click to expand...

Link?


----------



## Cecilie1200

American Horse said:


> Should I not hold my breath for documentation of the flouride claim?
> 
> I know that McCarthy sank into alcoholism after his censure in the Senate.  I wonder how many of today's political heroes could stand up to the kind of attacks he withstood, and not develop some sort of dependency problem?



I love how leftists destroy their enemies' lives and careers, and THEN cite the destruction of those lives and careers as proof that it was deserved.


----------



## Cecilie1200

American Horse said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, I don't have to do the work.  The conclusion has been made some time ago what Senator McCarthy was as a person and as a people's representative.  He was despicable.  The topic does not deserve discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's the best ya got; call 'em names and flee to authority.
Click to expand...


I swear, leftists in an argument remind me of Li'l Abner's granny, shouting, "I has spoken!" all the time.  We've already decided what the truth is, and no studying or thinking on history will be done from this point on.  We has spoken!!!


----------



## Political Junky

Political Junky said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ConHog said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are wrong in saying that McCarthy had nothing to do with the who communist investigations. Of course he wasn't involved with a House committee. However the Senate also had hearings , Tydings Committee, feel free to read about it.
> 
> Tydings Committee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> As for fluoride, yes MacCarthy led the charge of people who believed it was a communist plot. The man was a delusional prick.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tydings had squat to do with Hollywood, dumbass, which your own "source" - Wikipedia?  Really? What the fuck did lame-brain liberals do before Wikipedia? - says.  Note that in the very first sentence, it gives the official name of the subcommittee:  Subcommittee on the Investigation of Loyalty of *State Department Employees*.  Not Hollywood actors and writers; STATE DEPARTMENT EMPLOYEES.
> 
> As for the fluoride thing, you were asked for proof.  Restating it does not constitute proof, especially given how stupid you just made yourself look.  Your word for it does not now carry the credibility to be proof that the sky is blue.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Link?
Click to expand...

Still no link about Tydings and Hollywood? You've got nothing.


----------



## Toro

Cecilie1200 said:


> American Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, I don't have to do the work.  The conclusion has been made some time ago what Senator McCarthy was as a person and as a people's representative.  He was despicable.  The topic does not deserve discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's the best ya got; call 'em names and flee to authority.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I swear, leftists in an argument remind me of Li'l Abner's granny, shouting, "I has spoken!" all the time.  We've already decided what the truth is, and no studying or thinking on history will be done from this point on.  We has spoken!!!
Click to expand...


Yeah, that's right.  Like "thinking" McCarthy is a hero.  rofl!  

History via Conservapedia beckons.


----------



## Dr Grump

HUGGY said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LuckyDan said:
> 
> 
> 
> There has been more utter bullshit written and spoken about Joe McCarthy than any other person who ever lived.
> 
> A Great American statesman and patriot. God love him.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's how it works in the US too much of the time.  You extend yourself to protect and defend this country, and she destroys you as payment.  No good deed ever goes unpunished.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Punishment is reading your posts.
Click to expand...


Put it on ignore...I do...


----------



## HUGGY

Dr Grump said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's how it works in the US too much of the time.  You extend yourself to protect and defend this country, and she destroys you as payment.  No good deed ever goes unpunished.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Punishment is reading your posts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Put it on ignore...I do...
Click to expand...


As painfull as it is to my sensibilities to witness and be embarassed by another human being struggle as she does I believe in the First Ammendment.


----------



## Gadawg73

Cecilie1200 said:


> American Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, I don't have to do the work.  The conclusion has been made some time ago what Senator McCarthy was as a person and as a people's representative.  He was despicable.  The topic does not deserve discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's the best ya got; call 'em names and flee to authority.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I swear, leftists in an argument remind me of Li'l Abner's granny, shouting, "I has spoken!" all the time.  We've already decided what the truth is, and no studying or thinking on history will be done from this point on.  We has spoken!!!
Click to expand...


I am aconservative Republican.
Hasn't anyone, SOMEONE, in your own family taken you aside and politely pointed out and informed you how stupid you look when you make such absurd claims?
My family went through this,lived it and saw first hand. My uncle was a B-17 pilot in WWII,not a communis  and your drunken hero labeled him as one.
Without any proof.
But dumbass ideologues like you never require proof. And that is exactly the reason we fight you and will always continue to show everyone how much of a fool you are.
In the end we will destroy you as usual. 
And you claim to be a conservative???
Scary shit there. You do not even know what a conservative is.


----------



## PoliticalChic

Gadawg73 said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> American Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's the best ya got; call 'em names and flee to authority.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I swear, leftists in an argument remind me of Li'l Abner's granny, shouting, "I has spoken!" all the time.  We've already decided what the truth is, and no studying or thinking on history will be done from this point on.  We has spoken!!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I am aconservative Republican.
> Hasn't anyone, SOMEONE, in your own family taken you aside and politely pointed out and informed you how stupid you look when you make such absurd claims?
> My family went through this,lived it and saw first hand. My uncle was a B-17 pilot in WWII,not a communis  and your drunken hero labeled him as one.
> Without any proof.
> But dumbass ideologues like you never require proof. And that is exactly the reason we fight you and will always continue to show everyone how much of a fool you are.
> In the end we will destroy you as usual.
> And you claim to be a conservative???
> Scary shit there. You do not even know what a conservative is.
Click to expand...


Dullard73...

Again, the easily-led brigade fails to ascertain truth, and bathes in a warm bath of  liberal mythology

The litmus test is fairly simpleand you being equally so, it should appeal to you:
If Senator Joseph McCarthy had such a deleterious effect, and ruined so many lives, it should be effortless for you to name a half dozen or so whose lives were so ruined.

1.	If you cannot do so, it clearly casts the lie to your premise.
2.	Ruin does not refer to being insulted. You must show actual damages, i.e. imprisoned and later found innocent of the charges or never working again


----------



## PoliticalChic

Toro said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> American Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's the best ya got; call 'em names and flee to authority.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I swear, leftists in an argument remind me of Li'l Abner's granny, shouting, "I has spoken!" all the time.  We've already decided what the truth is, and no studying or thinking on history will be done from this point on.  We has spoken!!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah, that's right.  Like "thinking" McCarthy is a hero.  rofl!
> 
> History via Conservapedia beckons.
Click to expand...


1. McCarthys primary goal was not to expose individual Communists, he was simply demanding of the liberal establishment: Why were they sheltering traitors?  It was the exact same point Eisenhower was making when he directed Attorney General Brownell to inform the public that President Truman had wittingly place a Soviet spy in a key position at the IMF For decades, people who should not have been allowed anywhere a government job were strolling into sensitive positions with the US government. For the most part, accusations were not aimed at sending the accused to a gulag, only to private practice.

2. A host of other right-wing Republicans had sought to dramatize the communism issue, but only McCarthy succeeded. And McCarthy succeeded while the others did not in part because of his thoroughgoing contempt for the rules of political controversy.  
Michael Paul Rogin, The Intellectuals and McCarthy: The Radical Specter, p. 251
He forced liberals to explain themselves in full view of the American people. So they made McCarthy the issue.

3. The question wasnt simply whether people like William Remington were agents of Stalin. He was [War Production Board; Office of Emergency Management, convicted for perjury, killed in prison] (see listing of Soviet agents List of Soviet agents in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)  The question was whether he should be working for the government.  

4. Fifty years of liberal propaganda people to thinking of Communist Party member as lovable idealists and the urge to fire them from their government jobs as an irrational anachronistic prejudice.  Allowing card-carrying members of the Communist Party to handle classified material after the Alger Hiss case would be like encouraging al-Qaeda members to carry box cutters on airplanes after 9-11. 


Apercu:  You've been hoodwinked.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

PoliticalChic said:


> Toro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I swear, leftists in an argument remind me of Li'l Abner's granny, shouting, "I has spoken!" all the time.  We've already decided what the truth is, and no studying or thinking on history will be done from this point on.  We has spoken!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, that's right.  Like "thinking" McCarthy is a hero.  rofl!
> 
> History via Conservapedia beckons.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 1. McCarthys primary goal was not to expose individual Communists, he was simply demanding of the liberal establishment: Why were they sheltering traitors?  It was the exact same point Eisenhower was making when he directed Attorney General Brownell to inform the public that President Truman had wittingly place a Soviet spy in a key position at the IMF For decades, people who should not have been allowed anywhere a government job were strolling into sensitive positions with the US government. For the most part, accusations were not aimed at sending the accused to a gulag, only to private practice.
> 
> 2. A host of other right-wing Republicans had sought to dramatize the communism issue, but only McCarthy succeeded. And McCarthy succeeded while the others did not in part because of his thoroughgoing contempt for the rules of political controversy.
> Michael Paul Rogin, The Intellectuals and McCarthy: The Radical Specter, p. 251
> He forced liberals to explain themselves in full view of the American people. So they made McCarthy the issue.
> 
> 3. The question wasnt simply whether people like William Remington were agents of Stalin. He was [War Production Board; Office of Emergency Management, convicted for perjury, killed in prison] (see listing of Soviet agents List of Soviet agents in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)  The question was whether he should be working for the government.
> 
> 4. Fifty years of liberal propaganda people to thinking of Communist Party member as lovable idealists and the urge to fire them from their government jobs as an irrational anachronistic prejudice.  Allowing card-carrying members of the Communist Party to handle classified material after the Alger Hiss case would be like encouraging al-Qaeda members to carry box cutters on airplanes after 9-11.
> 
> Apercu:  You've been hoodwinked.
Click to expand...


"He forced liberals to explain themselves in full view of the American people. So they made McCarthy the issue."

That's the crux of it! And to this day, instead of proudly admitting their allegiance to Statism, they instead call themselves "Progressives"


----------



## JakeStarkey

Cecilie1200 said:


> American Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> Should I not hold my breath for documentation of the flouride claim?
> 
> I know that McCarthy sank into alcoholism after his censure in the Senate.  I wonder how many of today's political heroes could stand up to the kind of attacks he withstood, and not develop some sort of dependency problem?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I love how leftists destroy their enemies' lives and careers, and THEN cite the destruction of those lives and careers as proof that it was deserved.
Click to expand...


Link?


----------



## CrusaderFrank

JakeStarkey said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> American Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> Should I not hold my breath for documentation of the flouride claim?
> 
> I know that McCarthy sank into alcoholism after his censure in the Senate.  I wonder how many of today's political heroes could stand up to the kind of attacks he withstood, and not develop some sort of dependency problem?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I love how leftists destroy their enemies' lives and careers, and THEN cite the destruction of those lives and careers as proof that it was deserved.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Link?
Click to expand...


Jake, why do you feel attacked when the post is about Leftists?


----------



## JakeStarkey

The party of the right, the demagogic gift to the left who keeps on giving, demonstrates why Joe McCarthy will continue to be, overwhelmingly in the eyes of most Americans, a man who hated American ideals.



> *LIE  *McCarthy&#8217;s primary goal was not to expose individual Communists
> 
> *Eisenhower hated McCarthy  *It was the exact same point Eisenhower was making
> 
> *[evidence?]* he directed Attorney General Brownell to inform the public that President Truman had wittingly place a Soviet spy
> 
> *uninformed conclusion  *For the most part, accusations were not aimed at sending the accused to a gulag, only to private practice.
> 
> *Republicans pulled McCarthy down, not the liberals*  &#8220;A host of other right-wing Republicans had sought to dramatize the communism issue, but only McCarthy
> 
> *The Big Lie *Fifty years of liberal propaganda people to thinking of Communist Party member as lovable idealists and the urge to fire them from their government jobs as an irrational anachronistic prejudice.


----------



## Gadawg73

PoliticalChic said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I swear, leftists in an argument remind me of Li'l Abner's granny, shouting, "I has spoken!" all the time.  We've already decided what the truth is, and no studying or thinking on history will be done from this point on.  We has spoken!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am aconservative Republican.
> Hasn't anyone, SOMEONE, in your own family taken you aside and politely pointed out and informed you how stupid you look when you make such absurd claims?
> My family went through this,lived it and saw first hand. My uncle was a B-17 pilot in WWII,not a communis  and your drunken hero labeled him as one.
> Without any proof.
> But dumbass ideologues like you never require proof. And that is exactly the reason we fight you and will always continue to show everyone how much of a fool you are.
> In the end we will destroy you as usual.
> And you claim to be a conservative???
> Scary shit there. You do not even know what a conservative is.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Dullard73...
> 
> Again, the easily-led brigade fails to ascertain truth, and bathes in a warm bath of  liberal mythology
> 
> The litmus test is fairly simpleand you being equally so, it should appeal to you:
> If Senator Joseph McCarthy had such a deleterious effect, and ruined so many lives, it should be effortless for you to name a half dozen or so whose lives were so ruined.
> 
> 1.	If you cannot do so, it clearly casts the lie to your premise.
> 2.	Ruin does not refer to being insulted. You must show actual damages, i.e. imprisoned and later found innocent of the charges or never working again
Click to expand...


I named one already , lived it and saw it.
And you ignore it because your bias forces you to.
Tell us what you remember from those days or do you just goby what Rush and Anne parrot to you.
The litmus test is the reality I have SEEN, not your hearsay.


----------



## PoliticalChic

Gadawg73 said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am aconservative Republican.
> Hasn't anyone, SOMEONE, in your own family taken you aside and politely pointed out and informed you how stupid you look when you make such absurd claims?
> My family went through this,lived it and saw first hand. My uncle was a B-17 pilot in WWII,not a communis  and your drunken hero labeled him as one.
> Without any proof.
> But dumbass ideologues like you never require proof. And that is exactly the reason we fight you and will always continue to show everyone how much of a fool you are.
> In the end we will destroy you as usual.
> And you claim to be a conservative???
> Scary shit there. You do not even know what a conservative is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dullard73...
> 
> Again, the easily-led brigade fails to ascertain truth, and bathes in a warm bath of  liberal mythology
> 
> The litmus test is fairly simpleand you being equally so, it should appeal to you:
> If Senator Joseph McCarthy had such a deleterious effect, and ruined so many lives, it should be effortless for you to name a half dozen or so whose lives were so ruined.
> 
> 1.	If you cannot do so, it clearly casts the lie to your premise.
> 2.	Ruin does not refer to being insulted. You must show actual damages, i.e. imprisoned and later found innocent of the charges or never working again
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I named one already , lived it and saw it.
> And you ignore it because your bias forces you to.
> Tell us what you remember from those days or do you just goby what Rush and Anne parrot to you.
> The litmus test is the reality I have SEEN, not your hearsay.
Click to expand...


The name is "My uncle was a B-17 pilot..."?????

You truly give dullards a bad name....


Again: 
The litmus test is fairly simpleand you being equally so, it should appeal to you:
If Senator Joseph McCarthy had such a deleterious effect, and ruined so many lives, it should be effortless for you to name a half dozen or so whose lives were so ruined.

1.	If you cannot do so, it clearly casts the lie to your premise.
2.	Ruin does not refer to being insulted. You must show actual damages, i.e. imprisoned and later found innocent of the charges or never working again


----------



## PoliticalChic

JakeStarkey said:


> The party of the right, the demagogic gift to the left who keeps on giving, demonstrates why Joe McCarthy will continue to be, overwhelmingly in the eyes of most Americans, a man who hated American ideals.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *LIE  *McCarthys primary goal was not to expose individual Communists
> 
> *Eisenhower hated McCarthy  *It was the exact same point Eisenhower was making
> 
> *[evidence?]* he directed Attorney General Brownell to inform the public that President Truman had wittingly place a Soviet spy
> 
> *uninformed conclusion  *For the most part, accusations were not aimed at sending the accused to a gulag, only to private practice.
> 
> *Republicans pulled McCarthy down, not the liberals*  A host of other right-wing Republicans had sought to dramatize the communism issue, but only McCarthy
> 
> *The Big Lie *Fifty years of liberal propaganda people to thinking of Communist Party member as lovable idealists and the urge to fire them from their government jobs as an irrational anachronistic prejudice.
Click to expand...


Time to review the educational history of JakeStinky...

1. Finding it so essential to go along to get along, not rock the boat, [insert appropriate cliche], little jakey accepted all the propaganda that his left wing teachers and popular culture could produce.

2. Nodding his little head as rapidly as he could, toungue hanging out, big smile evident, little jakey never, never, never questioned!  He learned early on to accept.

3. Swallowing all the pap about the silly communists, only having their harmless fairy tales, and the evil McCarthy who  wanted to harm them...and 'destroy American democracy' as well....jakey believed without thinking- it was such an easy life!

4. Along the way, jakey traded his family cow for magic beans.....that's another story..

5. Once, and only once, jakey furrowed his little brow, and wondered where the evidence was that Senator McCarthy 'ruined so very many lives'...
But it gave him a headache...so he never did it again.

6.Fearful of more headaches, he lashed out furiously at any who suggested that he think, or question, or seek evidence.....

7. And that, boys and girls, is why we find little jakey on the floor today, in the fetal position,  screaming Mommy, make the pain stop'...

The end.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Toro said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> American Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's the best ya got; call 'em names and flee to authority.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I swear, leftists in an argument remind me of Li'l Abner's granny, shouting, "I has spoken!" all the time.  We've already decided what the truth is, and no studying or thinking on history will be done from this point on.  We has spoken!!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah, that's right.  Like "thinking" McCarthy is a hero.  rofl!
> 
> History via Conservapedia beckons.
Click to expand...


You see anyone here citing Conservapedia, Brain Trust?  You see anyone but you even MENTIONING it?  What you've got here is Wikipedia versus historians, bucko, and only liberals think history is carved in stone and never questioned or rethought.  On the other hand, they're the same people who think that about science, too, so I shouldn't be surprised.


----------



## JakeStarkey

PoliticalChic said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> The party of the right, the demagogic gift to the left who keeps on giving, demonstrates why Joe McCarthy will continue to be, overwhelmingly in the eyes of most Americans, a man who hated American ideals.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *LIE  *McCarthys primary goal was not to expose individual Communists
> 
> *Eisenhower hated McCarthy  *It was the exact same point Eisenhower was making
> 
> *[evidence?]* he directed Attorney General Brownell to inform the public that President Truman had wittingly place a Soviet spy
> 
> *uninformed conclusion  *For the most part, accusations were not aimed at sending the accused to a gulag, only to private practice.
> 
> *Republicans pulled McCarthy down, not the liberals*  A host of other right-wing Republicans had sought to dramatize the communism issue, but only McCarthy
> 
> *The Big Lie *Fifty years of liberal propaganda people to thinking of Communist Party member as lovable idealists and the urge to fire them from their government jobs as an irrational anachronistic prejudice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> <snip  *Political Chic attacks the messenger because she can't attack the message*>.
> 
> The end.
Click to expand...


She, like McCarthy, is a demagogue.

Her words shineth like an alabaster tomb in the sunlight yet stinketh with corruption.

When her level of writing attains the level of the institution she claims to  have attended, then we can pay attention to the quality of her work.  Right now it is biased and inferior.


----------



## PoliticalChic

JakeStarkey said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> The party of the right, the demagogic gift to the left who keeps on giving, demonstrates why Joe McCarthy will continue to be, overwhelmingly in the eyes of most Americans, a man who hated American ideals.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> <snip  *Political Chic attacks the messenger because she can't attack the message*>.
> 
> The end.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> She, like McCarthy, is a demagogue.
> 
> Her words shineth like an alabaster tomb in the sunlight yet stinketh with corruption.
> 
> When her level of writing attains the level of the institution she claims to  have attended, then we can pay attention to the quality of her work.  Right now it is biased and inferior.
Click to expand...


You can run, but you cannot hide...

The litmus test is fairly simpleand you being equally so, it should appeal to you:
If Senator Joseph McCarthy had such a deleterious effect, and ruined so many lives, it should be effortless for you to name a half dozen or so whose lives were so ruined.

1.	If you cannot do so, it clearly casts the lie to your premise.
2.	Ruin does not refer to being insulted. You must show actual damages, i.e. imprisoned and later found innocent of the charges or never working again


----------



## JakeStarkey

The litmus test has been answered time and again above by me and others.

You can't keep lying and think others believe you.

Your litmus test, which you always fail, is to objectively write rather than write to meet bias.  That is hack work.  I refer you to post #219.


----------



## Sky Dancer

PoliticalChic said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I swear, leftists in an argument remind me of Li'l Abner's granny, shouting, "I has spoken!" all the time.  We've already decided what the truth is, and no studying or thinking on history will be done from this point on.  We has spoken!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am aconservative Republican.
> Hasn't anyone, SOMEONE, in your own family taken you aside and politely pointed out and informed you how stupid you look when you make such absurd claims?
> My family went through this,lived it and saw first hand. My uncle was a B-17 pilot in WWII,not a communis  and your drunken hero labeled him as one.
> Without any proof.
> But dumbass ideologues like you never require proof. And that is exactly the reason we fight you and will always continue to show everyone how much of a fool you are.
> In the end we will destroy you as usual.
> And you claim to be a conservative???
> Scary shit there. You do not even know what a conservative is.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Dullard73...
> 
> Again, the easily-led brigade fails to ascertain truth, and bathes in a warm bath of  liberal mythology&#8230;
> 
> The litmus test is fairly simple&#8230;and you being equally so, it should appeal to you:
> If Senator Joseph McCarthy had such a deleterious effect, and &#8216;ruined&#8217; so many lives, it should be effortless for you to name a half dozen or so whose lives were so &#8216;ruined.&#8217;
> 
> 1.	If you cannot do so, it clearly casts the lie to your premise.
> 2.	Ruin does not refer to being insulted. You must show actual damages, i.e. imprisoned and later found innocent of the charges or never working again&#8230;
Click to expand...


You're posting to a Republican.  You obviously have a bright mind, why don't you use it to do some good?  Thank gawd, the right don't all think alike.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Stupid, stupid commentary: "2. Ruin does not refer to being insulted. You must show actual damages, i.e. imprisoned and later found innocent of the charges or never working again&#8230;"

Define "ruin" realistically.  Either or?  As if.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

The litmus test is fairly simple&#8230;and you being equally so, it should appeal to you:
If Senator Joseph McCarthy had such a deleterious effect, and &#8216;ruined&#8217; so many lives, it should be effortless for you to name a half dozen or so whose lives were so &#8216;ruined.&#8217;

1. If you cannot do so, it clearly casts the lie to your premise.
2. Ruin does not refer to being insulted. You must show actual damages, i.e. imprisoned and later found innocent of the charges or never working again&#8230;

Why is it so hard to answer a simple question?

You Progressives no longer control the media or the debate. If you're not lying, you should just answer the question! If you're lying, you won't

It's THAT Simple!


----------



## PoliticalChic

JakeStarkey said:


> Stupid, stupid commentary: "2. Ruin does not refer to being insulted. You must show actual damages, i.e. imprisoned and later found innocent of the charges or never working again"
> 
> Define "ruin" realistically.  Either or?  As if.



And the fog rolls in.....

1. "...answered time and again above by me and others."
Either provide the post numbers that have names of the 'ruined lives' and   "...answered time and again above by me and others." or go wash out your mouth with soap....for fibbing.
What are the names of said individuals that support your post??

2. Ruin does not mean insulted. It means actual damages. For example, if a communist professor was named by Senator McCarthy and was taken out of his classroom duties, but continued to be paid by the university...there are no actual damages. His life was not ruined.

If he had to change the name he used to receive film credits, there are no actual damages.

If he moved to Paris and continued to hobnob with elites, and live the high life...you get it.

3.The quibble that you have been reduced to, i.e. 'what does ruin mean...' would serve as an indication of how you have been mislead, had you even a smoldering ember of intellect.


I double-dog dare you!

Put up or back up.


----------



## Wry Catcher

CrusaderFrank said:


> I'm only about 35 pages into M. Stanton Evans "Blacklisted by History" and I am livid at the utter gall and tremendous scope of the Leftist outright lies.
> 
> Did you know that many of the original documents that McCarthy based his campaign on are missing?
> 
> As recently as March 1993 someone, we don't know who
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> went into the US National Archives and took the Klaus Memo, a 1946 memo by a State Department official Samuel Klaus implicating Alger Hiss and many others as Communist spies?



What better example exists then the words of CrusaderFrank as evidence that the RW fringe of American politics is built on a foundation of lies, half-truths and hyperbole?
I suspect most of us thought when reading "1984" in the 8th grade that a Ministry of Truth was fiction, and no population would be stupid enough to believe propaganda which contradicted their own experience.
Today maybe 20% of our population are that stupid, they accept the most outragious lies and historical spins as truth and never critically examine the platitudes upon which the current 'conservative' message is built.
Real conservatives are fiscally responsible and value tradition but embrace change which is slow and fully vetted.  Today's 'conservative' are in reality the Reactionaries of the past.


----------



## PoliticalChic

JakeStarkey said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> The party of the right, the demagogic gift to the left who keeps on giving, demonstrates why Joe McCarthy will continue to be, overwhelmingly in the eyes of most Americans, a man who hated American ideals.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> <snip  *Political Chic attacks the messenger because she can't attack the message*>.
> 
> The end.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> She, like McCarthy, is a demagogue.
> 
> Her words shineth like an alabaster tomb in the sunlight yet stinketh with corruption.
> 
> When her level of writing attains the level of the institution she claims to  have attended, then we can pay attention to the quality of her work.  Right now it is biased and inferior.
Click to expand...


"...is a demagogue."
If you were an individual who actually understood the words he was using, I would blush with pride, as it would mean that you think that I am a leader!

But, it's only JakeStinky, the valedictorian of summer school...
alas (sigh).

jakey, how can my work be 'biased' if I provide links and quotes, documentation? 

Are you claiming all the documentation is 'biased' as well?

And since I have consistently asked you to provide the names of the 'ruined lives,' only this, and you have ducked and run, it would seem that you, not I fall into this definition:

"A bias is a prejudice in a general or specific sense, usually in the sense for having a predilection to one particular point of view or ideology. One is said to be biased if one is influenced by one's biases. A bias could, for example, lead one to accept or not-accept the truth of a claim, not because of the strength of the claim itself, but because it does or does not correspond to one's own preconceived ideas."
Bias - Definition

Poor jakey, 'hoist by his own petard.'
That's Shakespeare, jakey.

See, it's really fun to learn!


----------



## Father Time

PoliticalChic said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> The party of the right, the demagogic gift to the left who keeps on giving, demonstrates why Joe McCarthy will continue to be, overwhelmingly in the eyes of most Americans, a man who hated American ideals.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *LIE  *McCarthys primary goal was not to expose individual Communists
> 
> *Eisenhower hated McCarthy  *It was the exact same point Eisenhower was making
> 
> *[evidence?]* he directed Attorney General Brownell to inform the public that President Truman had wittingly place a Soviet spy
> 
> *uninformed conclusion  *For the most part, accusations were not aimed at sending the accused to a gulag, only to private practice.
> 
> *Republicans pulled McCarthy down, not the liberals*  A host of other right-wing Republicans had sought to dramatize the communism issue, but only McCarthy
> 
> *The Big Lie *Fifty years of liberal propaganda people to thinking of Communist Party member as lovable idealists and the urge to fire them from their government jobs as an irrational anachronistic prejudice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Time to review the educational history of JakeStinky...
> 
> 1. Finding it so essential to go along to get along, not rock the boat, [insert appropriate cliche], little jakey accepted all the propaganda that his left wing teachers and popular culture could produce.
> 
> 2. Nodding his little head as rapidly as he could, toungue hanging out, big smile evident, little jakey never, never, never questioned!  He learned early on to accept.
> 
> 3. Swallowing all the pap about the silly communists, only having their harmless fairy tales, and the evil McCarthy who  wanted to harm them...and 'destroy American democracy' as well....jakey believed without thinking- it was such an easy life!
> 
> 4. Along the way, jakey traded his family cow for magic beans.....that's another story..
> 
> 5. Once, and only once, jakey furrowed his little brow, and wondered where the evidence was that Senator McCarthy 'ruined so very many lives'...
> But it gave him a headache...so he never did it again.
> 
> 6.Fearful of more headaches, he lashed out furiously at any who suggested that he think, or question, or seek evidence.....
> 
> 7. And that, boys and girls, is why we find little jakey on the floor today, in the fetal position,  screaming Mommy, make the pain stop'...
> 
> The end.
Click to expand...


And here we see the hack PC not countering Jake in anyway but instead spewing out insults and pretending that makes some kind of an argument.


----------



## Toro

CrusaderFrank said:


> The litmus test is fairly simple&#8230;and you being equally so, it should appeal to you:
> If Senator Joseph McCarthy had such a deleterious effect, and &#8216;ruined&#8217; so many lives, it should be effortless for you to name a half dozen or so whose lives were so &#8216;ruined.&#8217;
> 
> 1. If you cannot do so, it clearly casts the lie to your premise.
> 2. Ruin does not refer to being insulted. You must show actual damages, i.e. imprisoned and later found innocent of the charges or never working again&#8230;
> 
> Why is it so hard to answer a simple question?
> 
> You Progressives no longer control the media or the debate. If you're not lying, you should just answer the question! If you're lying, you won't
> 
> It's THAT Simple!



There were many.  Here is one.

Waldo Salt.



> In 1950, as his THE FLAME AND THE ARROW was showing throughout the country&#8217;s theaters, Waldo Salt seemed on his way to being one of Hollywood&#8217;s major screenwriters. But, for Salt as for many others, the 1950s meant the stifling of their creative talents by a paranoid and restrictive government. In April of 1951 Salt was called to testify before the House Un-American Activities Committee &#8212; Senator Joseph McCarthy&#8217;s brainchild for the investigation of Communist infiltration of America. Though never held in contempt of Congress, like a number of his colleagues, Salt was clearly identified as a card-carrying Communist and blacklisted for many years. Of that time, Salt said, &#8220;I wish we had done something to deserve being blacklisted. I wish we&#8217;d had that much influence on film or on politics at that time. I think the world might have been different. But we didn&#8217;t.&#8221;
> 
> Throughout the 1950s and early 1960s, Salt wrote primarily for television and commercials. Using a pseudonym, he worked on a number of films, keeping somewhat in touch with the industry, but no longer at the center of it. Though the blacklist had been lifted, much of his life had fallen into ruin. Divorced, and sick with pneumonia and despair, Salt was living in a cheap New York hotel trying to write television scripts. &#8220;I ended up at fifty, over-the-hill, thinking I had no future,&#8221; Salt explained. &#8220;Finally, I realized that I had allowed myself to write less than I could.&#8221; According to fellow writer Ian Hunter, &#8220;From then on, Waldo approached screenwriting as an artist.&#8221;



Waldo Salt - About Waldo Salt | American Masters | PBS

BTW, the extremist conservative revisionists don't get to define "ruin."  I'll take the word of the people who were the targets, not those of the people trying to redefine the world based on their own ideology.

I'll post a few more later.


----------



## JakeStarkey

She is a demagogic hack, Father Time, who can't carry an argument, so she plays the politics of personality.

The discerning reader knows she is a loser, and a terrible advocate for her side.


----------



## Father Time

Cecilie1200 said:


> Toro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I swear, leftists in an argument remind me of Li'l Abner's granny, shouting, "I has spoken!" all the time.  We've already decided what the truth is, and no studying or thinking on history will be done from this point on.  We has spoken!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, that's right.  Like "thinking" McCarthy is a hero.  rofl!
> 
> History via Conservapedia beckons.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You see anyone here citing Conservapedia, Brain Trust?  You see anyone but you even MENTIONING it?  What you've got here is Wikipedia versus historians, bucko, and only liberals think history is carved in stone and never questioned or rethought.  On the other hand, they're the same people who think that about science, too, so I shouldn't be surprised.
Click to expand...


I haven't seen anyone cite historians and please point me to any liberal organization that says science never changes.


----------



## Father Time

PoliticalChic said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> <snip  *Political Chic attacks the messenger because she can't attack the message*>.
> 
> The end.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She, like McCarthy, is a demagogue.
> 
> Her words shineth like an alabaster tomb in the sunlight yet stinketh with corruption.
> 
> When her level of writing attains the level of the institution she claims to  have attended, then we can pay attention to the quality of her work.  Right now it is biased and inferior.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You can run, but you cannot hide...
> 
> The litmus test is fairly simpleand you being equally so, it should appeal to you:
> If Senator Joseph McCarthy had such a deleterious effect, and ruined so many lives, it should be effortless for you to name a half dozen or so whose lives were so ruined.
> 
> 1.	If you cannot do so, it clearly casts the lie to your premise.
> 2.	Ruin does not refer to being insulted. You must show actual damages, i.e. imprisoned and later found innocent of the charges or never working again
Click to expand...


While we're at it why don't you answer the question of whether or not it's ok for people to be fired for their political beliefs.


----------



## Toro

Cecilie1200 said:


> Toro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I swear, leftists in an argument remind me of Li'l Abner's granny, shouting, "I has spoken!" all the time.  We've already decided what the truth is, and no studying or thinking on history will be done from this point on.  We has spoken!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, that's right.  Like "thinking" McCarthy is a hero.  rofl!
> 
> History via Conservapedia beckons.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You see anyone here citing Conservapedia, Brain Trust?  You see anyone but you even MENTIONING it?  What you've got here is Wikipedia versus historians, bucko, and only liberals think history is carved in stone and never questioned or rethought.  On the other hand, they're the same people who think that about science, too, so I shouldn't be surprised.
Click to expand...


If by "historians" you mean "ideological revisionists," yeah, I would agree.


----------



## PoliticalChic

Toro said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> The litmus test is fairly simpleand you being equally so, it should appeal to you:
> If Senator Joseph McCarthy had such a deleterious effect, and ruined so many lives, it should be effortless for you to name a half dozen or so whose lives were so ruined.
> 
> 1. If you cannot do so, it clearly casts the lie to your premise.
> 2. Ruin does not refer to being insulted. You must show actual damages, i.e. imprisoned and later found innocent of the charges or never working again
> 
> Why is it so hard to answer a simple question?
> 
> You Progressives no longer control the media or the debate. If you're not lying, you should just answer the question! If you're lying, you won't
> 
> It's THAT Simple!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There were many.  Here is one.
> 
> Waldo Salt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In 1950, as his THE FLAME AND THE ARROW was showing throughout the countrys theaters, Waldo Salt seemed on his way to being one of Hollywoods major screenwriters. But, for Salt as for many others, the 1950s meant the stifling of their creative talents by a paranoid and restrictive government. In April of 1951 Salt was called to testify before the House Un-American Activities Committee  Senator Joseph McCarthys brainchild for the investigation of Communist infiltration of America. Though never held in contempt of Congress, like a number of his colleagues, Salt was clearly identified as a card-carrying Communist and blacklisted for many years. Of that time, Salt said, I wish we had done something to deserve being blacklisted. I wish wed had that much influence on film or on politics at that time. I think the world might have been different. But we didnt.
> 
> Throughout the 1950s and early 1960s, Salt wrote primarily for television and commercials. Using a pseudonym, he worked on a number of films, keeping somewhat in touch with the industry, but no longer at the center of it. Though the blacklist had been lifted, much of his life had fallen into ruin. Divorced, and sick with pneumonia and despair, Salt was living in a cheap New York hotel trying to write television scripts. I ended up at fifty, over-the-hill, thinking I had no future, Salt explained. Finally, I realized that I had allowed myself to write less than I could. According to fellow writer Ian Hunter, From then on, Waldo approached screenwriting as an artist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Waldo Salt - About Waldo Salt | American Masters | PBS
> 
> BTW, the extremist conservative revisionists don't get to define "ruin."  I'll take the word of the people who were the targets, not those of the people trying to redefine the world based on their own ideology.
> 
> I'll post a few more later.
Click to expand...


How about the relying on the English language: ruin

1.an irrecoverable state of devastation and destruction; 

2. destroy: destroy completely; damage irreparably;

Based on the above, a shill for mass murder, including the starvation of men, women and children who wouldn's give up all of their posessions to some totalitarian ideology and had to (gasp!) stoop to "Using a pseudonym, he worked on a number of films..." paid far too little a price.

Now, to the case of Salt, in particular, you would look far more intelligent, Canadian or not, if you knew something about the subject before you post...

Senator Joseph McCarthy had nothing to do with HUAC...he was in the Senate.

And your source is as knowledgeable as you are: "In April of 1951 Salt was called to testify before the House Un-American Activities Committee  *Senator Joseph McCarthys brainchild *for the investigation of Communist infiltration of America."

The HUAC was established in 1937; Senator McCarthy began serving in 1947. He must have formed same ten years before he was elected....another indication of the greatness of the Senator!

"Hollywood Blacklisting had nothing to do with McCarthy. The Hollywood Ten were called before the HUAC in 1947.  McCarthy had just been elected to the Senate, and the Alger Hiss exposure, indictment and conviction occurred before McCarthy made his famous 1950 speech in Wheeling, West Virginia, before McCarthy did any investigating of Hollywood. When anti-communism took its toll in Hollywood, the blacklisting took the deadly form of not having ones name in the credits, or living in Paris, or not being able to sell a teleplay for as much as three years. This for folks who had no problem with Ukrainian farmers and their children eating their shoes."
Ann Coulter.

"Claiming to have been blacklisted is Hollywoods version of coming over on the Mayflower."
Ann Coulter

Ruined...?


Breathlessly, I await your promise: "I'll post a few more later."


----------



## PoliticalChic

Toro said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toro said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, that's right.  Like "thinking" McCarthy is a hero.  rofl!
> 
> History via Conservapedia beckons.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You see anyone here citing Conservapedia, Brain Trust?  You see anyone but you even MENTIONING it?  What you've got here is Wikipedia versus historians, bucko, and only liberals think history is carved in stone and never questioned or rethought.  On the other hand, they're the same people who think that about science, too, so I shouldn't be surprised.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If by "historians" you mean "ideological revisionists," yeah, I would agree.
Click to expand...


So let's see what you all are agreeing to...the ruination of Waldo Salt?

"As a Communist Salt was sure that he understood the road map to a better future, and so he was basically optimistic. He was convinced that he was riding the wave of the future. In 1956, he heard Nikita Khrushchev explain the atrocities that occurred in Russia under Stalin. He had accepted the blacklisting, but now everything he believed in seemed to collapse. Communism had been his answer to the evil in the world. Now Communism itself proved to be evil too. "
Waldo Pressman Salt - American film-maker and Idealist

So, your evidence supported the mass extermination of millions and then said 'oops!.'


Now, let's see how ruination looks:
1937 The Bride Wore Red Adaptation, uncredited 
1938 The Shopworn Angel Screenplay 
1939 The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn Dialogue, uncredited 
1940 The Philadelphia Story Uncredited 
1941 The Wild Man of Borneo Screenplay 
1943 Tonight We Raid Calais  
1944 Mr. Winkle Goes to War Alternative title: Arms and the Woman 
1948 Rachel and the Stranger Screenplay 
1950 The Flame and the Arrow  
1951 M Additional dialogue 
1961 Blast of Silence Narration written by, credited as Mel Davenport 
1962 Taras Bulba  
1964 Flight from Ashiya Alternative title: Ashiya kara no hiko 
Wild and Wonderful  
1969 Midnight Cowboy Screenplay 
1971 The Gang That Couldn't Shoot Straight Alternative title: The Gang That Couldn't Shoot 
1973 Serpico Screenplay 
1975 The Day of the Locust Screenplay 
1978 Coming Home  
Television 
Year Title Notes 
1955 Star Stage 1 episode 
1956 Colonel March of Scotland Yard 2 episodes 
1958 Swiss Family Robinson Television movie, credited as Mel Davenport 
Ivanhoe 4 episodes 
1961 Tallahassee 7000 1 episode 
1964 Espionage 1 episode 
1965 The Nurses 1 episode 
1967 Coronet Blue 1 episode 

[edit] Awards and nominations
Year Award Result Category Film or series 
1949 Writers Guild of America Award Nominated Best Written American Western Rachel and the Stranger 
1970 Won Best Drama Adapted from Another Medium Midnight Cowboy 
1974 Best Drama Adapted from Another Medium Serpico (Shared with Norman Wexler) 
1979 Best Drama Written Directly for the Screen Coming Home (Shared with Robert C. Jones) 
1986 Laurel Award for Screen Writing Achievement - 
1970 Academy Award Won Best Writing, Screenplay Based on Material from Another Medium Midnight Cowboy 
1974 Nominated Best Writing, Screenplay Based on Material from Another Medium Serpico (Shared with Norman Wexler) 
1979 Won Best Writing, Screenplay Written Directly for the Screen Coming Home (Shared with Nancy Dowd and Robert C. Jones) 
1970 BAFTA Award Won Best Screenplay Midnight Cowboy 
1974 Edgar Allan Poe Awards Nominated Serpico (Shared with Norman Wexler) 
1970 Golden Globe Award Nominated Best Screenplay Midnight Cowboy 
1979 Best Screenplay - Motion Picture Coming Home (Shared with Robert C. Jones) 
[show]v  d  eAcademy Award for Best Writing (Adapted Screenplay) 

Abby Mann (1961) · Horton Foote (1962) · John Osborne (1963) · Edward Anhalt (1964) · Robert Bolt (1965) · Robert Bolt (1966) · Stirling Silliphant (1967) · James Goldman (1968) · Waldo Salt (1969) · Ring Lardner, Jr. (1970) · Ernest Tidyman (1971) · Francis Ford Coppola and Mario Puzo (1972) · William Peter Blatty (1973) · Francis Ford Coppola and Mario Puzo (1974) · Bo Goldman and Laurence Hauben (1975) · William Goldman (1976) · Alvin Sargent (1977) · Oliver Stone (1978) · Robert Benton (1979) · Alvin Sargent (1980)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Complete List · (19281940) · (19411960) · (19611980) · (19812000) · (2001present)


[show]v  d  eAcademy Award for Best Writing (Original Screenplay) 19701979 

Francis Ford Coppola and Edmund H. North (1970) · Paddy Chayefsky (1971) · Jeremy Larner (1972) · David S. Ward (1973) · Robert Towne (1974) · Frank Pierson (1975) · Paddy Chayefsky (1976) · Woody Allen and Marshall Brickman (1977) · Robert C. Jones, Waldo Salt and Nancy Dowd (1978) · Steve Tesich (1979)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(19401949) · (19501959) · (19601969) · (19701979) · (19801989) · (19901999) · (20002009)


[show]v  d  eBAFTA Award for Best Screenplay 
Waldo Salt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Excellent job, Toro!


I'll bet lots of us hope to be so ruined.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Your position is untenable logically and philosophically, PC, but it is fun to watch you twist in the wind.


----------



## Gadawg73

PoliticalChic said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I swear, leftists in an argument remind me of Li'l Abner's granny, shouting, "I has spoken!" all the time.  We've already decided what the truth is, and no studying or thinking on history will be done from this point on.  We has spoken!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am aconservative Republican.
> Hasn't anyone, SOMEONE, in your own family taken you aside and politely pointed out and informed you how stupid you look when you make such absurd claims?
> My family went through this,lived it and saw first hand. My uncle was a B-17 pilot in WWII,not a communis  and your drunken hero labeled him as one.
> Without any proof.
> But dumbass ideologues like you never require proof. And that is exactly the reason we fight you and will always continue to show everyone how much of a fool you are.
> In the end we will destroy you as usual.
> And you claim to be a conservative???
> Scary shit there. You do not even know what a conservative is.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Dullard73...
> 
> Again, the easily-led brigade fails to ascertain truth, and bathes in a warm bath of  liberal mythology
> 
> The litmus test is fairly simpleand you being equally so, it should appeal to you:
> If Senator Joseph McCarthy had such a deleterious effect, and ruined so many lives, it should be effortless for you to name a half dozen or so whose lives were so ruined.
> 
> 1.	If you cannot do so, it clearly casts the lie to your premise.
> 2.	Ruin does not refer to being insulted. You must show actual damages, i.e. imprisoned and later found innocent of the charges or never working again
Click to expand...


You continuosly claim that we "fail to ascertain the truth" without offering ANY evidence or facts of your own.
How original.
Where is the definition of "ruin"  "imprisoned and later found innocent or never working again"?
Where? Only in your warped mind.
All you offer is rank hearsay and I will inform you of the definition of that also as that is also 20 feet over your head. 
Wham it zero on set. EP team ready on line.


----------



## PoliticalChic

JakeStarkey said:


> Your position is untenable logically and philosophically, PC, but it is fun to watch you twist in the wind.



Jakey, Youre so batty that you must sleep upside down

I understand this post as a face-saving device, but don't you realize how unnecessary it is: you have no reputation to save!


----------



## PoliticalChic

Gadawg73 said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am aconservative Republican.
> Hasn't anyone, SOMEONE, in your own family taken you aside and politely pointed out and informed you how stupid you look when you make such absurd claims?
> My family went through this,lived it and saw first hand. My uncle was a B-17 pilot in WWII,not a communis  and your drunken hero labeled him as one.
> Without any proof.
> But dumbass ideologues like you never require proof. And that is exactly the reason we fight you and will always continue to show everyone how much of a fool you are.
> In the end we will destroy you as usual.
> And you claim to be a conservative???
> Scary shit there. You do not even know what a conservative is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dullard73...
> 
> Again, the easily-led brigade fails to ascertain truth, and bathes in a warm bath of  liberal mythology
> 
> The litmus test is fairly simpleand you being equally so, it should appeal to you:
> If Senator Joseph McCarthy had such a deleterious effect, and ruined so many lives, it should be effortless for you to name a half dozen or so whose lives were so ruined.
> 
> 1.	If you cannot do so, it clearly casts the lie to your premise.
> 2.	Ruin does not refer to being insulted. You must show actual damages, i.e. imprisoned and later found innocent of the charges or never working again
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You continuosly claim that we "fail to ascertain the truth" without offering ANY evidence or facts of your own.
> How original.
> Where is the definition of "ruin"  "imprisoned and later found innocent or never working again"?
> Where? Only in your warped mind.
> All you offer is rank hearsay and I will inform you of the definition of that also as that is also 20 feet over your head.
> Wham it zero on set. EP team ready on line.
Click to expand...


Dully, are you trying to change the subject yet again???

Not everyone has the attention deficit that you have:

Here, let me help:

The litmus test is fairly simpleand you being equally so, it should appeal to you:
If Senator Joseph McCarthy had such a deleterious effect, and ruined so many lives, it should be effortless for you to name a half dozen or so whose lives were so ruined.

1.	If you cannot do so, it clearly casts the lie to your premise.
2.	Ruin does not refer to being insulted. You must show actual damages, i.e. imprisoned and later found innocent of the charges or never working again

Please...not Uncle Billy again.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Toro said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> The litmus test is fairly simpleand you being equally so, it should appeal to you:
> If Senator Joseph McCarthy had such a deleterious effect, and ruined so many lives, it should be effortless for you to name a half dozen or so whose lives were so ruined.
> 
> 1. If you cannot do so, it clearly casts the lie to your premise.
> 2. Ruin does not refer to being insulted. You must show actual damages, i.e. imprisoned and later found innocent of the charges or never working again
> 
> Why is it so hard to answer a simple question?
> 
> You Progressives no longer control the media or the debate. If you're not lying, you should just answer the question! If you're lying, you won't
> 
> It's THAT Simple!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There were many.  Here is one.
> 
> Waldo Salt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In 1950, as his THE FLAME AND THE ARROW was showing throughout the countrys theaters, Waldo Salt seemed on his way to being one of Hollywoods major screenwriters. But, for Salt as for many others, the 1950s meant the stifling of their creative talents by a paranoid and restrictive government. In April of 1951 Salt was called to testify before the House Un-American Activities Committee  Senator Joseph McCarthys brainchild for the investigation of Communist infiltration of America. Though never held in contempt of Congress, like a number of his colleagues, Salt was clearly identified as a card-carrying Communist and blacklisted for many years. Of that time, Salt said, I wish we had done something to deserve being blacklisted. I wish wed had that much influence on film or on politics at that time. I think the world might have been different. But we didnt.
> 
> Throughout the 1950s and early 1960s, Salt wrote primarily for television and commercials. Using a pseudonym, he worked on a number of films, keeping somewhat in touch with the industry, but no longer at the center of it. Though the blacklist had been lifted, much of his life had fallen into ruin. Divorced, and sick with pneumonia and despair, Salt was living in a cheap New York hotel trying to write television scripts. I ended up at fifty, over-the-hill, thinking I had no future, Salt explained. Finally, I realized that I had allowed myself to write less than I could. According to fellow writer Ian Hunter, From then on, Waldo approached screenwriting as an artist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Waldo Salt - About Waldo Salt | American Masters | PBS
> 
> BTW, the extremist conservative revisionists don't get to define "ruin."  I'll take the word of the people who were the targets, not those of the people trying to redefine the world based on their own ideology.
> 
> I'll post a few more later.
Click to expand...


Really?  So are you going to take the word of Trent Lott, or is this "people who were targets" deal a one-way ratchet?

And Waldo Salt was investigated by the HUAC, you drooling, blithering, pathetic leftist excuse for a warm-blooded mammal.  We're talking about SENATOR McCarthy, who never served in the House.

Epic fucking fail.  You should be banned just for being such a sucking black hole of ignorance that you lower the IQ of humanity with every breath you inhale.  My God, I'm embarrassed to share the same species with you at this point.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Toro said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toro said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, that's right.  Like "thinking" McCarthy is a hero.  rofl!
> 
> History via Conservapedia beckons.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You see anyone here citing Conservapedia, Brain Trust?  You see anyone but you even MENTIONING it?  What you've got here is Wikipedia versus historians, bucko, and only liberals think history is carved in stone and never questioned or rethought.  On the other hand, they're the same people who think that about science, too, so I shouldn't be surprised.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If by "historians" you mean "ideological revisionists," yeah, I would agree.
Click to expand...


At this point, in talking to a drooling skid mark in the jockey shorts like you, "historian" would mean "Anyone who isn't so fucking moronic that he believes McCarthy was responsible for the HUAC."

Tell us some more about the eee-vils of "ideological revisionists" who want to rewrite history to suit their own agenda, you hypocritical wad of dog phlegm.

Better yet, get the fuck off my screen.  There are invertebrates squirming in tide pools who are more worthy of serious consideration than you are.  FLUSH!


----------



## PoliticalChic

Cecilie1200 said:


> Toro said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> The litmus test is fairly simpleand you being equally so, it should appeal to you:
> If Senator Joseph McCarthy had such a deleterious effect, and ruined so many lives, it should be effortless for you to name a half dozen or so whose lives were so ruined.
> 
> 1. If you cannot do so, it clearly casts the lie to your premise.
> 2. Ruin does not refer to being insulted. You must show actual damages, i.e. imprisoned and later found innocent of the charges or never working again
> 
> Why is it so hard to answer a simple question?
> 
> You Progressives no longer control the media or the debate. If you're not lying, you should just answer the question! If you're lying, you won't
> 
> It's THAT Simple!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There were many.  Here is one.
> 
> Waldo Salt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In 1950, as his THE FLAME AND THE ARROW was showing throughout the countrys theaters, Waldo Salt seemed on his way to being one of Hollywoods major screenwriters. But, for Salt as for many others, the 1950s meant the stifling of their creative talents by a paranoid and restrictive government. In April of 1951 Salt was called to testify before the House Un-American Activities Committee  Senator Joseph McCarthys brainchild for the investigation of Communist infiltration of America. Though never held in contempt of Congress, like a number of his colleagues, Salt was clearly identified as a card-carrying Communist and blacklisted for many years. Of that time, Salt said, I wish we had done something to deserve being blacklisted. I wish wed had that much influence on film or on politics at that time. I think the world might have been different. But we didnt.
> 
> Throughout the 1950s and early 1960s, Salt wrote primarily for television and commercials. Using a pseudonym, he worked on a number of films, keeping somewhat in touch with the industry, but no longer at the center of it. Though the blacklist had been lifted, much of his life had fallen into ruin. Divorced, and sick with pneumonia and despair, Salt was living in a cheap New York hotel trying to write television scripts. I ended up at fifty, over-the-hill, thinking I had no future, Salt explained. Finally, I realized that I had allowed myself to write less than I could. According to fellow writer Ian Hunter, From then on, Waldo approached screenwriting as an artist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Waldo Salt - About Waldo Salt | American Masters | PBS
> 
> BTW, the extremist conservative revisionists don't get to define "ruin."  I'll take the word of the people who were the targets, not those of the people trying to redefine the world based on their own ideology.
> 
> I'll post a few more later.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Really?  So are you going to take the word of Trent Lott, or is this "people who were targets" deal a one-way ratchet?
> 
> And Waldo Salt was investigated by the HUAC, you drooling, blithering, pathetic leftist excuse for a warm-blooded mammal.  We're talking about SENATOR McCarthy, who never served in the House.
> 
> Epic fucking fail.  You should be banned just for being such a sucking black hole of ignorance that you lower the IQ of humanity with every breath you inhale.  My God, I'm embarrassed to share the same species with you at this point.
Click to expand...


Cecilie, you really really really went overboard on the poor Canadian!

The UN is going to cite you for excessive use of force!


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Wry Catcher said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm only about 35 pages into M. Stanton Evans "Blacklisted by History" and I am livid at the utter gall and tremendous scope of the Leftist outright lies.
> 
> Did you know that many of the original documents that McCarthy based his campaign on are missing?
> 
> As recently as March 1993 someone, we don't know who
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> went into the US National Archives and took the Klaus Memo, a 1946 memo by a State Department official Samuel Klaus implicating Alger Hiss and many others as Communist spies?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What better example exists then the words of CrusaderFrank as evidence that the RW fringe of American politics is built on a foundation of lies, half-truths and hyperbole?
> I suspect most of us thought when reading "1984" in the 8th grade that a Ministry of Truth was fiction, and no population would be stupid enough to believe propaganda which contradicted their own experience.
> Today maybe 20% of our population are that stupid, they accept the most outragious lies and historical spins as truth and never critically examine the platitudes upon which the current 'conservative' message is built.
> Real conservatives are fiscally responsible and value tradition but embrace change which is slow and fully vetted.  Today's 'conservative' are in reality the Reactionaries of the past.
Click to expand...


I broke out your post syllogistically and it translates as follows: 

Blah blah blah I'm too fucking ignorant to read and understand what Frank wrote or why having key documents lifted from the National Archives might matter so, like every other Progressive who cannot debate on the merits, I'm going launch into a scathing 4th grade attack on Frank.

Please don't let this discourage you from "Debating" as I chalk up every Progressive non-answer on McCarthy, FDR's economic "greatness" and the Dems Tuskegee Experiments as a victory.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Wry Catcher said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm only about 35 pages into M. Stanton Evans "Blacklisted by History" and I am livid at the utter gall and tremendous scope of the Leftist outright lies.
> 
> Did you know that many of the original documents that McCarthy based his campaign on are missing?
> 
> As recently as March 1993 someone, we don't know who
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> went into the US National Archives and took the Klaus Memo, a 1946 memo by a State Department official Samuel Klaus implicating Alger Hiss and many others as Communist spies?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What better example exists then the words of CrusaderFrank as evidence that the RW fringe of American politics is built on a foundation of lies, half-truths and hyperbole?
> I suspect most of us thought when reading "1984" in the 8th grade that a Ministry of Truth was fiction, and no population would be stupid enough to believe propaganda which contradicted their own experience.
> Today maybe 20% of our population are that stupid, they accept the most outragious lies and historical spins as truth and never critically examine the platitudes upon which the current 'conservative' message is built.
> Real conservatives are fiscally responsible and value tradition but embrace change which is slow and fully vetted.  Today's 'conservative' are in reality the Reactionaries of the past.
Click to expand...


And still we wait for you to DEMONSTRATE how we're wrong, rather than just superciliously stating that "everyone knows" we're wrong.

What part of "you're not defining the debate anymore" don't you understand, mouthbreather?  The more you declare a victory before the battle you're too chickenshit to fight, the more obvious it becomes that you're armed with blanks.


----------



## JakeStarkey

You are wrong.  It has been proved.  You simply don't get it, and that is your problem, Cecilie.


----------



## Cecilie1200

PoliticalChic said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toro said:
> 
> 
> 
> There were many.  Here is one.
> 
> Waldo Salt.
> 
> 
> 
> Waldo Salt - About Waldo Salt | American Masters | PBS
> 
> BTW, the extremist conservative revisionists don't get to define "ruin."  I'll take the word of the people who were the targets, not those of the people trying to redefine the world based on their own ideology.
> 
> I'll post a few more later.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really?  So are you going to take the word of Trent Lott, or is this "people who were targets" deal a one-way ratchet?
> 
> And Waldo Salt was investigated by the HUAC, you drooling, blithering, pathetic leftist excuse for a warm-blooded mammal.  We're talking about SENATOR McCarthy, who never served in the House.
> 
> Epic fucking fail.  You should be banned just for being such a sucking black hole of ignorance that you lower the IQ of humanity with every breath you inhale.  My God, I'm embarrassed to share the same species with you at this point.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Cecilie, you really really really went overboard on the poor Canadian!
> 
> The UN is going to cite you for excessive use of force!
Click to expand...


The UN is welcome to go fuck itself on the dunce stool in the corner right next to Toro, for much the same reasons.


----------



## Synthaholic

PoliticalChic said:


> The name is "My uncle was a B-17 pilot..."?????
> 
> You truly give dullards a bad name....



You show yourself to be an ideological idiot who is unable to read a thread.  He already responded to you with a name:



Gadawg73 said:


> William Harold Walker Jr., my uncle.
> How old are you chic? You obviously do not know the difference between chicken salad and chicken shit on this matter.
> ANYONE and EVERYONE labeled a communist during those stages of the Cold War was ruined professionally unless they came from family $.
> If you do not know that ole Tail Gunner was a fraud you are either too young to remember or too stupid to know any better.
> Or both.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Every time a Progressive provides a non-answer, Joe McCarthy gets another feather in his wings


----------



## PoliticalChic

Cecilie1200 said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Really?  So are you going to take the word of Trent Lott, or is this "people who were targets" deal a one-way ratchet?
> 
> And Waldo Salt was investigated by the HUAC, you drooling, blithering, pathetic leftist excuse for a warm-blooded mammal.  We're talking about SENATOR McCarthy, who never served in the House.
> 
> Epic fucking fail.  You should be banned just for being such a sucking black hole of ignorance that you lower the IQ of humanity with every breath you inhale.  My God, I'm embarrassed to share the same species with you at this point.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cecilie, you really really really went overboard on the poor Canadian!
> 
> The UN is going to cite you for excessive use of force!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The UN is welcome to go fuck itself on the dunce stool in the corner right next to Toro, for much the same reasons.
Click to expand...


Now, now...let's give credit where credit is due:

WryBread, Junky, Toro, JakeStinky, Dullard, ...
Its the axis of Evel Keneval

See how smart they make us look!


----------



## PoliticalChic

Synthaholic said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> The name is "My uncle was a B-17 pilot..."?????
> 
> You truly give dullards a bad name....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You show yourself to be an ideological idiot who is unable to read a thread.  He already responded to you with a name:
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> William Harold Walker Jr., my uncle.
> How old are you chic? You obviously do not know the difference between chicken salad and chicken shit on this matter.
> ANYONE and EVERYONE labeled a communist during those stages of the Cold War was ruined professionally unless they came from family $.
> If you do not know that ole Tail Gunner was a fraud you are either too young to remember or too stupid to know any better.
> Or both.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


I googled the name with 'blacklisted,' and "senator McCarthy.'

There is no such reference.

You try, see if you find same...


----------



## Toro

PoliticalChic said:


> How about the relying on the English language: ruin
> 
> 1.an irrecoverable state of devastation and destruction;
> 
> 2. destroy: destroy completely; damage irreparably;
> 
> Based on the above, a shill for mass murder, including the starvation of men, women and children who wouldn's give up all of their posessions to some totalitarian ideology and had to (gasp!) stoop to "Using a pseudonym, he worked on a number of films..." paid far too little a price.
> 
> Now, to the case of Salt, in particular, you would look far more intelligent, Canadian or not, if you knew something about the subject before you post...
> 
> Senator Joseph McCarthy had nothing to do with HUAC...he was in the Senate.
> 
> And your source is as knowledgeable as you are: "In April of 1951 Salt was called to testify before the House Un-American Activities Committee  *Senator Joseph McCarthys brainchild *for the investigation of Communist infiltration of America."
> 
> The HUAC was established in 1937; Senator McCarthy began serving in 1947. He must have formed same ten years before he was elected....another indication of the greatness of the Senator!



Yes, yes, I made a mistake.  I mixed up the man with "McCarthyism," a term HE embraced at the time.



> "Hollywood Blacklisting had nothing to do with McCarthy. The Hollywood Ten were called before the HUAC in 1947.  McCarthy had just been elected to the Senate, and the Alger Hiss exposure, indictment and conviction occurred before McCarthy made his famous 1950 speech in Wheeling, West Virginia, before McCarthy did any investigating of Hollywood. When anti-communism took its toll in Hollywood, the blacklisting took the deadly form of not having ones name in the credits, or living in Paris, or not being able to sell a teleplay for as much as three years. This for folks who had no problem with Ukrainian farmers and their children eating their shoes."
> Ann Coulter.
> 
> "Claiming to have been blacklisted is Hollywoods version of coming over on the Mayflower."
> Ann Coulter
> 
> Ruined...?
> 
> 
> Breathlessly, I await your promise: "I'll post a few more later."



Being blacklisted was serious business in the 1950s.  It meant that many of those on the list couldn't get work or had to write under pseudonyms.  

Let's ask Richard Nixon, who was Vice President of the time, what he and the administration thought about McCarthyism in 1954.



> "Men who have in the past done effective work exposing Communists in this country have, by reckless talk and questionable methods, made themselves the issue rather than the cause they believe in so deeply."



McCarthyism

Yes, an American hero and patriot.

And here you are, defending him.


----------



## Toro

Cecilie1200 said:


> Really?  So are you going to take the word of Trent Lott, or is this "people who were targets" deal a one-way ratchet?
> 
> And Waldo Salt was investigated by the HUAC, you drooling, blithering, pathetic leftist excuse for a warm-blooded mammal.  We're talking about SENATOR McCarthy, who never served in the House.
> 
> Epic fucking fail.  You should be banned just for being such a sucking black hole of ignorance that you lower the IQ of humanity with every breath you inhale.  My God, I'm embarrassed to share the same species with you at this point.





Cecilie1200 said:


> At this point, in talking to a drooling skid mark in the jockey shorts like you, "historian" would mean "Anyone who isn't so fucking moronic that he believes McCarthy was responsible for the HUAC."
> 
> Tell us some more about the eee-vils of "ideological revisionists" who want to rewrite history to suit their own agenda, you hypocritical wad of dog phlegm.
> 
> Better yet, get the fuck off my screen.  There are invertebrates squirming in tide pools who are more worthy of serious consideration than you are.  FLUSH!



I couldn't give a flying fuck what you think, you stupid conservatard hack bitch.  Extremists like yourself never exit your ideological circle jerk.  Go beat a homeless person.  You'll feel better.  

And wasn't it you that was telling me how homeless people in America have better medical care than everyone else anywhere else in the world, or was that some other un-evolved conservatard?  Yeah, "revisionism."


----------



## Toro

PC

I'm going to put the last part of your post first.

Salt was called to testify in 1951.  



PoliticalChic said:


> Now, let's see how ruination looks:
> 1937 The Bride Wore Red Adaptation, uncredited
> 1938 The Shopworn Angel Screenplay
> 1939 The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn Dialogue, uncredited
> 1940 The Philadelphia Story Uncredited
> 1941 The Wild Man of Borneo Screenplay
> 1943 Tonight We Raid Calais
> 1944 Mr. Winkle Goes to War Alternative title: Arms and the Woman
> 1948 Rachel and the Stranger Screenplay
> 1950 The Flame and the Arrow
> 1951 M Additional dialogue
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1961 Blast of Silence Narration written by, credited as Mel Davenport
> 1962 Taras Bulba
> 1964 Flight from Ashiya Alternative title: Ashiya kara no hiko
> Wild and Wonderful
> 1969 Midnight Cowboy Screenplay
> 1971 The Gang That Couldn't Shoot Straight Alternative title: The Gang That Couldn't Shoot
> 1973 Serpico Screenplay
> 1975 The Day of the Locust Screenplay
> 1978 Coming Home
> Television
> Year Title Notes
> 1955 Star Stage 1 episode
> 1956 Colonel March of Scotland Yard 2 episodes
> 1958 Swiss Family Robinson Television movie, credited as Mel Davenport
> Ivanhoe 4 episodes
> 1961 Tallahassee 7000 1 episode
> 1964 Espionage 1 episode
> 1965 The Nurses 1 episode
> 1967 Coronet Blue 1 episode



See all the movies he did 10 years after he testified?

And



PoliticalChic said:


> [edit] Awards and nominations
> Year Award Result Category Film or series
> 1949 Writers Guild of America Award Nominated Best Written American Western Rachel and the Stranger
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1970 Won Best Drama Adapted from Another Medium Midnight Cowboy
> 1974 Best Drama Adapted from Another Medium Serpico (Shared with Norman Wexler)
> 1979 Best Drama Written Directly for the Screen Coming Home (Shared with Robert C. Jones)
> 1986 Laurel Award for Screen Writing Achievement -
> 1970 Academy Award Won Best Writing, Screenplay Based on Material from Another Medium Midnight Cowboy
> 1974 Nominated Best Writing, Screenplay Based on Material from Another Medium Serpico (Shared with Norman Wexler)
> 1979 Won Best Writing, Screenplay Written Directly for the Screen Coming Home (Shared with Nancy Dowd and Robert C. Jones)
> 1970 BAFTA Award Won Best Screenplay Midnight Cowboy
> 1974 Edgar Allan Poe Awards Nominated Serpico (Shared with Norman Wexler)
> 1970 Golden Globe Award Nominated Best Screenplay Midnight Cowboy
> 1979 Best Screenplay - Motion Picture Coming Home (Shared with Robert C. Jones)
> [show]v &#8226; d &#8226; eAcademy Award for Best Writing (Adapted Screenplay)
> 
> ...
> 
> I'll bet lots of us hope to be so ruined.



So, you'd have no problem with someone denying you of your livelihood for over a decade?



PoliticalChic said:


> So let's see what you all are agreeing to...the ruination of Waldo Salt?
> 
> "As a Communist Salt was sure that he understood the road map to a better future, and so he was basically optimistic. He was convinced that he was riding the wave of the future. In 1956, he heard Nikita Khrushchev explain the atrocities that occurred in Russia under Stalin. He had accepted the blacklisting, but now everything he believed in seemed to collapse. Communism had been his answer to the evil in the world. Now Communism itself proved to be evil too. "
> Waldo Pressman Salt - American film-maker and Idealist
> 
> So, your evidence supported the mass extermination of millions and then said 'oops!.'



In the 1930s, a sizable minority of Americans supported fascism and Nazism, including Charles Lindbergh.  They played down the violence and racism of the Nazis, saying it was overblown while extolling the virtues of Hitler.  Needless to say, Nazism wasn't so popular a few years later.


----------



## Cecilie1200

PoliticalChic said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> The name is "My uncle was a B-17 pilot..."?????
> 
> You truly give dullards a bad name....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You show yourself to be an ideological idiot who is unable to read a thread.  He already responded to you with a name:
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> William Harold Walker Jr., my uncle.
> How old are you chic? You obviously do not know the difference between chicken salad and chicken shit on this matter.
> ANYONE and EVERYONE labeled a communist during those stages of the Cold War was ruined professionally unless they came from family $.
> If you do not know that ole Tail Gunner was a fraud you are either too young to remember or too stupid to know any better.
> Or both.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I googled the name with 'blacklisted,' and "senator McCarthy.'
> 
> There is no such reference.
> 
> You try, see if you find same...
Click to expand...


What?!  You mean you're not going to just take his word for it?!


----------



## PoliticalChic

Toro said:


> PC
> 
> I'm going to put the last part of your post first.
> 
> Salt was called to testify in 1951.
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now, let's see how ruination looks:
> 1937 The Bride Wore Red Adaptation, uncredited
> 1938 The Shopworn Angel Screenplay
> 1939 The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn Dialogue, uncredited
> 1940 The Philadelphia Story Uncredited
> 1941 The Wild Man of Borneo Screenplay
> 1943 Tonight We Raid Calais
> 1944 Mr. Winkle Goes to War Alternative title: Arms and the Woman
> 1948 Rachel and the Stranger Screenplay
> 1950 The Flame and the Arrow
> 1951 M Additional dialogue
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1961 Blast of Silence Narration written by, credited as Mel Davenport
> 1962 Taras Bulba
> 1964 Flight from Ashiya Alternative title: Ashiya kara no hiko
> Wild and Wonderful
> 1969 Midnight Cowboy Screenplay
> 1971 The Gang That Couldn't Shoot Straight Alternative title: The Gang That Couldn't Shoot
> 1973 Serpico Screenplay
> 1975 The Day of the Locust Screenplay
> 1978 Coming Home
> Television
> Year Title Notes
> 1955 Star Stage 1 episode
> 1956 Colonel March of Scotland Yard 2 episodes
> 1958 Swiss Family Robinson Television movie, credited as Mel Davenport
> Ivanhoe 4 episodes
> 1961 Tallahassee 7000 1 episode
> 1964 Espionage 1 episode
> 1965 The Nurses 1 episode
> 1967 Coronet Blue 1 episode
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See all the movies he did 10 years after he testified?
> 
> And
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> [edit] Awards and nominations
> Year Award Result Category Film or series
> 1949 Writers Guild of America Award Nominated Best Written American Western Rachel and the Stranger
> 
> 1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1970 Won Best Drama Adapted from Another Medium Midnight Cowboy
> 1974 Best Drama Adapted from Another Medium Serpico (Shared with Norman Wexler)
> 1979 Best Drama Written Directly for the Screen Coming Home (Shared with Robert C. Jones)
> 1986 Laurel Award for Screen Writing Achievement -
> 1970 Academy Award Won Best Writing, Screenplay Based on Material from Another Medium Midnight Cowboy
> 1974 Nominated Best Writing, Screenplay Based on Material from Another Medium Serpico (Shared with Norman Wexler)
> 1979 Won Best Writing, Screenplay Written Directly for the Screen Coming Home (Shared with Nancy Dowd and Robert C. Jones)
> 1970 BAFTA Award Won Best Screenplay Midnight Cowboy
> 1974 Edgar Allan Poe Awards Nominated Serpico (Shared with Norman Wexler)
> 1970 Golden Globe Award Nominated Best Screenplay Midnight Cowboy
> 1979 Best Screenplay - Motion Picture Coming Home (Shared with Robert C. Jones)
> [show]v  d  eAcademy Award for Best Writing (Adapted Screenplay)
> 
> ...
> 
> I'll bet lots of us hope to be so ruined.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So, you'd have no problem with someone denying you of your livelihood for over a decade?
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> So let's see what you all are agreeing to...the ruination of Waldo Salt?
> 
> "As a Communist Salt was sure that he understood the road map to a better future, and so he was basically optimistic. He was convinced that he was riding the wave of the future. In 1956, he heard Nikita Khrushchev explain the atrocities that occurred in Russia under Stalin. He had accepted the blacklisting, but now everything he believed in seemed to collapse. Communism had been his answer to the evil in the world. Now Communism itself proved to be evil too. "
> Waldo Pressman Salt - American film-maker and Idealist
> 
> So, your evidence supported the mass extermination of millions and then said 'oops!.'
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In the 1930s, a sizable minority of Americans supported fascism and Nazism, including Charles Lindbergh.  They played down the violence and racism of the Nazis, saying it was overblown while extolling the virtues of Hitler.  Needless to say, Nazism wasn't so popular a few years later.
Click to expand...


First, and most significnt, our member, Toro, has by admitting an error, done a great deal in restoring my faith in ...to be eschatological, ...mankind.

I appreciate it greatly.

1.  The ten year lapse has no relevance, as he, simply,  "had to write under pseudonyms." 

2. I have studied the period in great detail. And have regularly posted about the origins of progressivism and its debt to fascism. While your statement re: progressives were enthralled with fascism and Nazism, you fail to include communism.

All of the totalist views were embraced. Revelations of the Holocaust soured most on Nazism, but many simply re-emphasized communism, making excuses for its murderous ideology, and attacking those, i.e. Senator McCarthy who exposed the connections.

"The American elites, including much of FDRs Brain Trust made the pilgrimage to Moscow and spoke glowingly of the Soviet experiment. The economist and originator of the expression New Deal, explained how, in the Soviet Union the all-caring state was informed by battalions of statistics and led by Communist Party officials who need no further incentive than the burning zeal to create a new heaven and a new earth which flames in the breast of every good Communist. Lewis S. Feuer, American Travelers in the Soviet Union, 1917-1932 American Quarterly 14, no. 2, pt. 1, Summer 1962.

Lincoln Steffens, journalist, lecturer, and political philosopher, muckraker, famously said of the Soviet Union in 1921: "I have been over into the future, and it works."  And he said much the same about Fascist Italy. He, like other Progressives, considered the experimentation all the same, as in the Russian-Italian method.

John Reed, best remembered for his first-hand account of *the Bolshevik Revolution, Ten Days that Shook the World,* explained how meaningless was the Red Terror, and mass murder of non- Bolsheviks. To the wall with them I say! Razstrellyat!(execute by shooting). Herbert Croly excused the atrocities by comparing same to the American Civil War, which was necessary to exterminate slavery. So, slavery and capitalism are the same

One can hear he same echoes today, in the rants of the Left.


3. "So, you'd have no problem with someone denying you of your livelihood for over a decade?"
Context is everything.

If I espoused a murderous ideology which has been responsible for over 100 Million deaths during the last century, and aided and supported attempts to advance same at the expense of my fellow citizens, then "denying you of your livelihood" should, correctly, be the least of my debt.

In the interest of full disclosure, I espouse no such view.


----------



## Gadawg73

PoliticalChic said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> The name is "My uncle was a B-17 pilot..."?????
> 
> You truly give dullards a bad name....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You show yourself to be an ideological idiot who is unable to read a thread.  He already responded to you with a name:
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> William Harold Walker Jr., my uncle.
> How old are you chic? You obviously do not know the difference between chicken salad and chicken shit on this matter.
> ANYONE and EVERYONE labeled a communist during those stages of the Cold War was ruined professionally unless they came from family $.
> If you do not know that ole Tail Gunner was a fraud you are either too young to remember or too stupid to know any better.
> Or both.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I googled the name with 'blacklisted,' and "senator McCarthy.'
> 
> There is no such reference.
> 
> You try, see if you find same...
Click to expand...


You previously claimed those lists were false as "no one was ruined".
So you went to the sources that you previously claimed as invalid to now use as your evidence.
You are so stupid, naive and gullible that you believe everyone McCarthy blacklisted is on some internet site.
You are a dunce chic. I prepare court cases for trial in my work. You would not last 5 minutes in my world.
I hope you are never picked to serve on a jury. My uncle is dead. Thousands of people were persecuted and labeled as communists and never listed on any site.
Your type believes you can Google "Jews persecuted in south Florida 1910-1950" and get a complete list.
I always thought you were a bufoon. Your ignorance has proved it WAD.


----------



## Gadawg73

Cecilie1200 said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> You show yourself to be an ideological idiot who is unable to read a thread.  He already responded to you with a name:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I googled the name with 'blacklisted,' and "senator McCarthy.'
> 
> There is no such reference.
> 
> You try, see if you find same...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What?!  You mean you're not going to just take his word for it?!
Click to expand...


Do you really believe everyone persecuted and labeled as a communist by McCarthy and his goons is on some internet list?
Are you that stupid? MOST tried their best to run from that persecution.
You must be young and dumb also. 
Never forget is what we learned.


----------



## HUGGY

There is something needed to be made clear.  I enjoy a good political football as much as anyone.  That said ...  Some here from the OP to PC and others feel that anything is acceptable as a chance to "adjust" history for their hack purposes.  I was alive and aware of the McCarthy hearings at the time they occured.  Yes I was young..but I actually saw them.  My family was GOP back several generations before me.  IKE was a bonified certified hero.  Not like the so-called heros paraded around by today's republicans.  Eisenhower despised McCarthy and that is all I need to know.  All this Johnnie come lately re-writing of events I witnessed is bad enough...when you tread on the memory of one of the finest human beings this country has had the good fortune to know, someone that led us to victory in WWII and on into his presidency, you do a serious disservice to our country.  

I for one will fight you..any of you ...till the end of fuckin time on this particular issue.  

You have crossed a line on this.  Pick another hero.  McCarthy was an evil snake.  Period.


----------



## American Horse

Gadawg73 said:


> * My uncle was a B-17 pilot in WWII,not a communis  and your drunken hero labeled him as one.
> Without any proof.*



What was your uncle's name?  If he was so labeled by McCarthy, then that should be public information and provable in that public record.

This is different from your other claims, which were people who were not your family members.
And nothing of what you've said so far in this and other threads is provable on this subject, but instead is just hearsay.  

Any actions by the House Unamerican Activities Committee attributed to McCarthy fall into that category of "hearsay."

Your claim of flouride likewise only has a hearsay connection.  What you said:

Gadawg said: " If you do not know that Joe McCarthy stated himself that vaccinations, fluoridation of water and the government funding mental health clinic then you are in denial. He said it and that is documented fact. "

Hearsay definition:  " Unverified information heard or received from another; rumor. 2. Law Evidence based on the reports of others rather than the personal knowledge of a witness ... "


----------



## JakeStarkey

Huggy is right.  The only "litmus test" is to demonstrate that McCarthy was not an evil political prick intent on political glory despite the good of the country.  This characterizes the overwhelming amount of McCarthy's work: "Unverified information heard or received from another; rumor."

Eisenhower hated him.

Republicans correctly destroyed him.



End of story.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

"Certainly, he is a controversial man. He is earnest and he is honest. He has enemies. Whenever you attack subversives of any kind...you are going to be a victim of the most extremely vicious criticism that can be made."  -- J Edgar Hoover, as quoted in "Blacklisted by History" and found in Executive Session of the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations of the Committee on Governmental Operations 1953-1954 (released to the public 2003)


----------



## CrusaderFrank

JakeStarkey said:


> Huggy is right.  The only "litmus test" is to demonstrate that McCarthy was not an evil political prick intent on political glory despite the good of the country.  This characterizes the overwhelming amount of McCarthy's work: "Unverified information heard or received from another; rumor."
> 
> Eisenhower hated him.
> 
> Republicans correctly destroyed him.
> 
> 
> 
> End of story.



No fucker! NO!

It's not the end of the story because Progressives say so!  Those days are gone!

Information keeps coming out about what really happened and with each release we see more and more that if anything McCarthy vastly and tragically UNDERSTATED the problem of Communist infiltration of the US government.

I'll keep posting facts, you keep begging to end the debate because you say or or Ike said so or Huggy said so and I'm not going anywhere!

This is personal for me too.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

HUGGY said:


> There is something needed to be made clear.  I enjoy a good political football as much as anyone.  That said ...  Some here from the OP to PC and others feel that anything is acceptable as a chance to "adjust" history for their hack purposes.  I was alive and aware of the McCarthy hearings at the time they occured.  Yes I was young..but I actually saw them.  My family was GOP back several generations before me.  IKE was a bonified certified hero.  Not like the so-called heros paraded around by today's republicans.  Eisenhower despised McCarthy and that is all I need to know.  All this Johnnie come lately re-writing of events I witnessed is bad enough...when you tread on the memory of one of the finest human beings this country has had the good fortune to know, someone that led us to victory in WWII and on into his presidency, you do a serious disservice to our country.
> 
> I for one will fight you..any of you ...till the end of fuckin time on this particular issue.
> 
> You have crossed a line on this.  Pick another hero.  McCarthy was an evil snake.  Period.



Stop the reflexive hatred and take the time to read what's been posted starting with source material vanishing from the National Archives.

That's debating.


----------



## American Horse

HUGGY said:


> There is something needed to be made clear.  I enjoy a good political football as much as anyone.  That said ...  Some here from the OP to PC and others feel that anything is acceptable as a chance to "adjust" history for their hack purposes.  I was alive and aware of the McCarthy hearings at the time they occured.  *Yes I was young..but I actually saw them.*  My family was GOP back several generations before me.  IKE was a bonified certified hero.  Not like the so-called heros paraded around by today's republicans.  Eisenhower despised McCarthy and that is all I need to know.  All this Johnnie come lately re-writing of events I witnessed is bad enough...when you tread on the memory of one of the finest human beings this country has had the good fortune to know, someone that led us to victory in WWII and on into his presidency, you do a serious disservice to our country.
> 
> I for one will fight you..any of you ...till the end of fuckin time on this particular issue.
> 
> You have crossed a line on this.  Pick another hero.  McCarthy was an evil snake.  Period.



You indeed were young. In a comment you made earlier in this thread, quote: " my enrollment in kindergarten in Lake Forest Park elementary, Seattle 1955-59." tells us your congnizance of the events at the end of McCarthy's senate career which were broadcast on tv the summer of 1954 leading up to his censure were when you were something like 4 or 5 years of age.  My impressions came from watching the same hearings at age 14. 

I came away with a somewhat different impression than did you.  By the time I graduated high-school, and enlisted in the Marine Corps, the term "McCarthyism" had not become so imbedded in the popular culture as it now is. That has been an ongoing process, made more effective by McCarthy's timely death as an alcoholic.  

I was young, yes, but the impression I came away with was of one lone man, calm and reasonable in his presentation, taking on a system, which had been caught with it's pants down, and you dare not catch the highest levels of government with their pants down.  

A lot of the "crimes" claimed to have been committed here by McCarthy have no basis in fact; they simply fail the test of documentation.  Otherwise what we are seeing are emotional arguments, not rational ones.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Gadawg73 said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> I googled the name with 'blacklisted,' and "senator McCarthy.'
> 
> There is no such reference.
> 
> You try, see if you find same...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What?!  You mean you're not going to just take his word for it?!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Do you really believe everyone persecuted and labeled as a communist by McCarthy and his goons is on some internet list?
> Are you that stupid? MOST tried their best to run from that persecution.
> You must be young and dumb also.
> Never forget is what we learned.
Click to expand...


Solomon Adler


----------



## Gadawg73

American Horse said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> * My uncle was a B-17 pilot in WWII,not a communis  and your drunken hero labeled him as one.
> Without any proof.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What was your uncle's name?  If he was so labeled by McCarthy, then that should be public information and provable in that public record.
> 
> This is different from your other claims, which were people who were not your family members.
> And nothing of what you've said so far in this and other threads is provable on this subject, but instead is just hearsay.
> 
> Any actions by the House Unamerican Activities Committee attributed to McCarthy fall into that category of "hearsay."
> 
> Your claim of flouride likewise only has a hearsay connection.  What you said:
> 
> Gadawg said: " If you do not know that Joe McCarthy stated himself that vaccinations, fluoridation of water and the government funding mental health clinic then you are in denial. He said it and that is documented fact. "
> 
> Hearsay definition:  " Unverified information heard or received from another; rumor. 2. Law Evidence based on the reports of others rather than the personal knowledge of a witness ... "
Click to expand...


You are dumb as a box of rocks. THOUSANDS of people were labeled communists by that committee and their minions everywhere all over America. Only a small fraction of them were on any list.
I am old enough to remember Tail Gunner Joe, his drunken ways and his lies.
McCarthy did state that about fluoride. You are in serious denial. The man was a fraud.


----------



## Gadawg73

HUGGY said:


> There is something needed to be made clear.  I enjoy a good political football as much as anyone.  That said ...  Some here from the OP to PC and others feel that anything is acceptable as a chance to "adjust" history for their hack purposes.  I was alive and aware of the McCarthy hearings at the time they occured.  Yes I was young..but I actually saw them.  My family was GOP back several generations before me.  IKE was a bonified certified hero.  Not like the so-called heros paraded around by today's republicans.  Eisenhower despised McCarthy and that is all I need to know.  All this Johnnie come lately re-writing of events I witnessed is bad enough...when you tread on the memory of one of the finest human beings this country has had the good fortune to know, someone that led us to victory in WWII and on into his presidency, you do a serious disservice to our country.
> 
> I for one will fight you..any of you ...till the end of fuckin time on this particular issue.
> 
> You have crossed a line on this.  Pick another hero.  McCarthy was an evil snake.  Period.



I M with U Huggy. I will line it up and fight anyone on this issue also. 
Sad fact is that what we have here are a bunch of milk weak fools that have never crossed the lines ever at anything. They believe an entertainment talking head bleached blonde skinny whorre over a decorated veteran that became President. 
Anyone and everyone that supports Tail Gunner Joe McCarthy is a traitor and deserves to have their milk weak ass whipped.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Gadawg73 said:


> American Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> * My uncle was a B-17 pilot in WWII,not a communis  and your drunken hero labeled him as one.
> Without any proof.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What was your uncle's name?  If he was so labeled by McCarthy, then that should be public information and provable in that public record.
> 
> This is different from your other claims, which were people who were not your family members.
> And nothing of what you've said so far in this and other threads is provable on this subject, but instead is just hearsay.
> 
> Any actions by the House Unamerican Activities Committee attributed to McCarthy fall into that category of "hearsay."
> 
> Your claim of flouride likewise only has a hearsay connection.  What you said:
> 
> Gadawg said: " If you do not know that Joe McCarthy stated himself that vaccinations, fluoridation of water and the government funding mental health clinic then you are in denial. He said it and that is documented fact. "
> 
> Hearsay definition:  " Unverified information heard or received from another; rumor. 2. Law Evidence based on the reports of others rather than the personal knowledge of a witness ... "
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are dumb as a box of rocks. THOUSANDS of people were labeled communists by that committee and their minions everywhere all over America. Only a small fraction of them were on any list.
> I am old enough to remember Tail Gunner Joe, his drunken ways and his lies.
> McCarthy did state that about fluoride. You are in serious denial. The man was a fraud.
Click to expand...


McCarthy said what about fluoride?

When you blow up on this are you at least willing to listen to what's come out recently?


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Gadawg73 said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is something needed to be made clear.  I enjoy a good political football as much as anyone.  That said ...  Some here from the OP to PC and others feel that anything is acceptable as a chance to "adjust" history for their hack purposes.  I was alive and aware of the McCarthy hearings at the time they occured.  Yes I was young..but I actually saw them.  My family was GOP back several generations before me.  IKE was a bonified certified hero.  Not like the so-called heros paraded around by today's republicans.  Eisenhower despised McCarthy and that is all I need to know.  All this Johnnie come lately re-writing of events I witnessed is bad enough...when you tread on the memory of one of the finest human beings this country has had the good fortune to know, someone that led us to victory in WWII and on into his presidency, you do a serious disservice to our country.
> 
> I for one will fight you..any of you ...till the end of fuckin time on this particular issue.
> 
> You have crossed a line on this.  Pick another hero.  McCarthy was an evil snake.  Period.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I M with U Huggy. I will line it up and fight anyone on this issue also.
> Sad fact is that what we have here are a bunch of milk weak fools that have never crossed the lines ever at anything. They believe an entertainment talking head bleached blonde skinny whorre over a decorated veteran that became President.
> Anyone and everyone that supports Tail Gunner Joe McCarthy is a traitor and deserves to have their milk weak ass whipped.
Click to expand...


Once more: Solomon Adler


----------



## HUGGY

American Horse said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is something needed to be made clear.  I enjoy a good political football as much as anyone.  That said ...  Some here from the OP to PC and others feel that anything is acceptable as a chance to "adjust" history for their hack purposes.  I was alive and aware of the McCarthy hearings at the time they occured.  *Yes I was young..but I actually saw them.*  My family was GOP back several generations before me.  IKE was a bonified certified hero.  Not like the so-called heros paraded around by today's republicans.  Eisenhower despised McCarthy and that is all I need to know.  All this Johnnie come lately re-writing of events I witnessed is bad enough...when you tread on the memory of one of the finest human beings this country has had the good fortune to know, someone that led us to victory in WWII and on into his presidency, you do a serious disservice to our country.
> 
> I for one will fight you..any of you ...till the end of fuckin time on this particular issue.
> 
> You have crossed a line on this.  Pick another hero.  McCarthy was an evil snake.  Period.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You indeed were young. In a comment you made earlier in this thread, quote: " my enrollment in kindergarten in Lake Forest Park elementary, Seattle 1955-59." tells us your congnizance of the events at the end of McCarthy's senate career which were broadcast on tv the summer of 1954 leading up to his censure were when you were something like 4 or 5 years of age.  My impressions came from watching the same hearings at age 14.
> 
> I came away with a somewhat different impression than did you.  By the time I graduated high-school, and enlisted in the Marine Corps, the term "McCarthyism" had not become so imbedded in the popular culture as it now is. That has been an ongoing process, made more effective by McCarthy's timely death as an alcoholic.
> 
> I was young, yes, but the impression I came away with was of one lone man, calm and reasonable in his presentation, taking on a system, which had been caught with it's pants down, and you dare not catch the highest levels of government with their pants down.
> 
> A lot of the "crimes" claimed to have been committed here by McCarthy have no basis in fact; they simply fail the test of documentation.  Otherwise what we are seeing are emotional arguments, not rational ones.
Click to expand...


I wasn't an average 4 year old.  I read Websters dictionary cover to cover along with Roget's Thesaurus by 5 without any prompting by my parents.  I attended Kings Garden preschool before grade K. entered K early... Perhaps your view of those events was different than mine.  All I really got was that Ike was adored in my family and he hated McCarthy.  My dad also worked in the movie industry...not Hollywood.  He knew many people in the movie industry at the time.  I remember him talking with my mom about his friends being under preasure to "turn in" people that had done nothing wrong.  He made the movies Boeing used to sell it's commercial and military aircraft.  He would bring home 727's and others used in wind tests and let me handle them.  It was very cool.  I had rebuilt an RCA tube radio pulled from the trash and had my own darkroom at 5.  My parents also gave the "gifted" child Huggy a very complete chemistry set at the same age.  That they regretted!  

I cannot speak for your experiences.  I will not abandon mine.


----------



## Cecilie1200

CrusaderFrank said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What?!  You mean you're not going to just take his word for it?!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you really believe everyone persecuted and labeled as a communist by McCarthy and his goons is on some internet list?
> Are you that stupid? MOST tried their best to run from that persecution.
> You must be young and dumb also.
> Never forget is what we learned.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Solomon Adler
Click to expand...


It's always entertaining - and bemusing - to be accused of being stupid and gullible by someone who believes people are going to take his unsubstantiated word for things.


----------



## American Horse

Gadawg73 said:


> You are dumb as a box of rocks. *THOUSANDS of people were labeled communists by that committee* and their minions everywhere all over America. Only a small fraction of them were on any list.
> I am old enough to remember Tail Gunner Joe, his drunken ways and his lies.
> McCarthy did state that about fluoride. You are in serious denial. The man was a fraud.



THAT COMMITTEE?  The House Un-American Activities Committee?

JMcC served as chairman on two senate committees. He was chairman of the "Government Committee on Operations of the Senate," and the "Investigations Subcommittee of the Committee on Expenditures in Executive Departments"
He was questioned in front of the Tydings Committee which had one purpose, to destroy JMcC, and to limit the exposure of government offices with communist agents working in them.  They did that by making the claim that he only had the names that had come from the Lee list.  He had many more names than those, and with few exceptions they have proven to have been communist agents, working to promote communist not American goals.

PROVE the flouride claim with documentation.  At one point you said it was "documented."  Show some documentation.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Joe McCarthy by the beginning of the 1960s was generally demonized by the country.  He was defended by the likes of the John Birch Society, not the mainstream Republicans.

Cecilie, the Republicans destroyed McCarthy.

Do you really have that much trouble admitting when you are wrong?


----------



## PoliticalChic

Gadawg73 said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> You show yourself to be an ideological idiot who is unable to read a thread.  He already responded to you with a name:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I googled the name with 'blacklisted,' and "senator McCarthy.'
> 
> There is no such reference.
> 
> You try, see if you find same...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You previously claimed those lists were false as "no one was ruined".
> So you went to the sources that you previously claimed as invalid to now use as your evidence.
> You are so stupid, naive and gullible that you believe everyone McCarthy blacklisted is on some internet site.
> You are a dunce chic. I prepare court cases for trial in my work. You would not last 5 minutes in my world.
> I hope you are never picked to serve on a jury. My uncle is dead. Thousands of people were persecuted and labeled as communists and never listed on any site.
> Your type believes you can Google "Jews persecuted in south Florida 1910-1950" and get a complete list.
> I always thought you were a bufoon. Your ignorance has proved it WAD.
Click to expand...


Dullard, you seem unable to keep more than one thought at a time in your head...but, I guess that is why you are a dullard.

The question... now, focus!...is whether or not the great American hero, Senator Joseph McCarthy, is responsibe for wholesale blacklisting and 'ruining' the lives of thousands of innocent American citizens.

I'm sure that Uncle Billy would be so proud of your support...but, unfortunately for the purposes of this discussion, he is less than meaningful.

If he actually existed, and your previous posts tend to remove credence here, you have shown absolutely no connection between him and the great American hero, Senator Joseph McCarthy.

A possible scenario is that an employer found Uncle Billy less than competent, and fired him.  Family history seems to suggest this...

So, dull-one, the discussion revolves back to:
The litmus test is fairly simpleand you being equally so, it should appeal to you:
If Senator Joseph McCarthy had such a deleterious effect, and ruined so many lives, it should be effortless for you to name a half dozen or so whose lives were so ruined.

1.	If you cannot do so, it clearly casts the lie to your premise.
2.	Ruin does not refer to being insulted. You must show actual damages, i.e. imprisoned and later found innocent of the charges or never working again

Care to take another shot, while it is still fresh in your so-called-mind?


----------



## JakeStarkey

The litmus test is whether McCarthy was an American skunk.  Yep, he was.  Now let's move on.


----------



## PoliticalChic

JakeStarkey said:


> The litmus test is whether McCarthy was an American skunk.  Yep, he was.  Now let's move on.



Now, JakeStinky!  I'm going to have to scold you! Another obfuscation?

You have been given many opportunities to fulfill the requirements of the litmust test:
The litmus test is fairly simpleand you being equally so, it should appeal to you:
If Senator Joseph McCarthy had such a deleterious effect, and ruined so many lives, it should be effortless for you to name a half dozen or so whose lives were so ruined.

1.	If you cannot do so, it clearly casts the lie to your premise.
2.	Ruin does not refer to being insulted. You must show actual damages, i.e. imprisoned and later found innocent of the charges or never working again

You have used every device, or rather every device available to the average five year old, to avoid the fact that you are unable to find these 'ruined lives.'

On the positive side, neither has anyone else....

On the negative side, it would probably occur to one of average intelligence- or higher- that said inability probably means that your firmly held belief is probably not true....

Ah, but not to you, Stinky!
So, you just amble down that Yellow Brick Road...and perhaps the wizard can fulfill the need that both you and Scarecrow have!

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOKK8mAkiUI]YouTube - Wizard of Oz-- If I Only Had A Brain[/ame]


----------



## JakeStarkey

I love it when you scold me, stamping your little foot there in the corner where you have been put for the entire argument, your little red-rimmed eyes glaring, your tongue sticking out.  Yep, you are cute.


----------



## PoliticalChic

JakeStarkey said:


> I love it when you scold me, stamping your little foot there in the corner where you have been put for the entire argument, your little red-rimmed eyes glaring, your tongue sticking out.  Yep, you are cute.



Ya' know, you're getting much better at this!

I take full credit for your improvement.


----------



## JakeStarkey

And I take credit for you getting a bit better at arguing.  Also you have a sense of humor when you want to use it.


----------



## Dr Grump

CrusaderFrank said:


> "Certainly, he is a controversial man. He is earnest and he is honest. He has enemies. Whenever you attack subversives of any kind...you are going to be a victim of the most extremely vicious criticism that can be made."  -- J Edgar Hoover, as quoted in "Blacklisted by History" and found in Executive Session of the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations of the Committee on Governmental Operations 1953-1954 (released to the public 2003)



So now you're quoting a cross-dressing fucktard who held onto his position of power by blackmailing, bullying and generally fucking over anybody who got in his way? What do you do for an encore, use Pol Pot to show us how nice Adolf Hitler was?


----------



## Dr Grump

JakeStarkey said:


> And I take credit for you getting a bit better at arguing.  Also you have a sense of humor when you want to use it.



PC has always had a sense of humour - in a Anne Coulter kinda way.
What she is dead wrong about is McCarthy. She seems to think that unless the people under his scope were not left destitute, then:
1) He did not have a negative impact on their life.
2) He was therefore an American hero.

To which I say:
"Bullshit."....


----------



## Cecilie1200

Dr Grump said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> And I take credit for you getting a bit better at arguing.  Also you have a sense of humor when you want to use it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PC has always had a sense of humour - in a Anne Coulter kinda way.
> What she is dead wrong about is McCarthy. She seems to think that unless the people under his scope were not left destitute, then:
> 1) He did not have a negative impact on their life.
> 2) He was therefore an American hero.
> 
> To which I say:
> "Bullshit."....
Click to expand...


Maybe she just thinks that because you dumbfucks can't offer any proof that you're right other than to scream, "We're right, and everyone knows it!!!" you're not really worth listening to.


----------



## Gadawg73

PoliticalChic said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> I googled the name with 'blacklisted,' and "senator McCarthy.'
> 
> There is no such reference.
> 
> You try, see if you find same...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You previously claimed those lists were false as "no one was ruined".
> So you went to the sources that you previously claimed as invalid to now use as your evidence.
> You are so stupid, naive and gullible that you believe everyone McCarthy blacklisted is on some internet site.
> You are a dunce chic. I prepare court cases for trial in my work. You would not last 5 minutes in my world.
> I hope you are never picked to serve on a jury. My uncle is dead. Thousands of people were persecuted and labeled as communists and never listed on any site.
> Your type believes you can Google "Jews persecuted in south Florida 1910-1950" and get a complete list.
> I always thought you were a bufoon. Your ignorance has proved it WAD.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Dullard, you seem unable to keep more than one thought at a time in your head...but, I guess that is why you are a dullard.
> 
> The question... now, focus!...is whether or not the great American hero, Senator Joseph McCarthy, is responsibe for wholesale blacklisting and 'ruining' the lives of thousands of innocent American citizens.
> 
> I'm sure that Uncle Billy would be so proud of your support...but, unfortunately for the purposes of this discussion, he is less than meaningful.
> 
> If he actually existed, and your previous posts tend to remove credence here, you have shown absolutely no connection between him and the great American hero, Senator Joseph McCarthy.
> 
> A possible scenario is that an employer found Uncle Billy less than competent, and fired him.  Family history seems to suggest this...
> 
> So, dull-one, the discussion revolves back to:
> The litmus test is fairly simpleand you being equally so, it should appeal to you:
> If Senator Joseph McCarthy had such a deleterious effect, and ruined so many lives, it should be effortless for you to name a half dozen or so whose lives were so ruined.
> 
> 1.	If you cannot do so, it clearly casts the lie to your premise.
> 2.	Ruin does not refer to being insulted. You must show actual damages, i.e. imprisoned and later found innocent of the charges or never working again
> 
> Care to take another shot, while it is still fresh in your so-called-mind?
Click to expand...


You are a funny girl chic. Cute as another poster called it.
But not very intelligent. Check out your local community college library. I M sure you can get in there with your vast knowledge of American history. They have the mirror test as their sole admissions qualifier.
You breathe onto the mirror and if it fogs up you are in.
Good luck.


----------



## HUGGY

Gadawg73 said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You previously claimed those lists were false as "no one was ruined".
> So you went to the sources that you previously claimed as invalid to now use as your evidence.
> You are so stupid, naive and gullible that you believe everyone McCarthy blacklisted is on some internet site.
> You are a dunce chic. I prepare court cases for trial in my work. You would not last 5 minutes in my world.
> I hope you are never picked to serve on a jury. My uncle is dead. Thousands of people were persecuted and labeled as communists and never listed on any site.
> Your type believes you can Google "Jews persecuted in south Florida 1910-1950" and get a complete list.
> I always thought you were a bufoon. Your ignorance has proved it WAD.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dullard, you seem unable to keep more than one thought at a time in your head...but, I guess that is why you are a dullard.
> 
> The question... now, focus!...is whether or not the great American hero, Senator Joseph McCarthy, is responsibe for wholesale blacklisting and 'ruining' the lives of thousands of innocent American citizens.
> 
> I'm sure that Uncle Billy would be so proud of your support...but, unfortunately for the purposes of this discussion, he is less than meaningful.
> 
> If he actually existed, and your previous posts tend to remove credence here, you have shown absolutely no connection between him and the great American hero, Senator Joseph McCarthy.
> 
> A possible scenario is that an employer found Uncle Billy less than competent, and fired him.  Family history seems to suggest this...
> 
> So, dull-one, the discussion revolves back to:
> The litmus test is fairly simpleand you being equally so, it should appeal to you:
> If Senator Joseph McCarthy had such a deleterious effect, and ruined so many lives, it should be effortless for you to name a half dozen or so whose lives were so ruined.
> 
> 1.	If you cannot do so, it clearly casts the lie to your premise.
> 2.	Ruin does not refer to being insulted. You must show actual damages, i.e. imprisoned and later found innocent of the charges or never working again
> 
> Care to take another shot, while it is still fresh in your so-called-mind?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are a funny girl chic. Cute as another poster called it.
> But not very intelligent. Check out your local community college library. I M sure you can get in there with your vast knowledge of American history. They have the mirror test as their sole admissions qualifier.
> You breathe onto the mirror and if it fogs up you are in.
> Good luck.
Click to expand...


If she cannot pass the mirror test my suspicions are confirmed.


----------



## Gadawg73

Cecilie1200 said:


> Dr Grump said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> And I take credit for you getting a bit better at arguing.  Also you have a sense of humor when you want to use it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PC has always had a sense of humour - in a Anne Coulter kinda way.
> What she is dead wrong about is McCarthy. She seems to think that unless the people under his scope were not left destitute, then:
> 1) He did not have a negative impact on their life.
> 2) He was therefore an American hero.
> 
> To which I say:
> "Bullshit."....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Maybe she just thinks that because you dumbfucks can't offer any proof that you're right other than to scream, "We're right, and everyone knows it!!!" you're not really worth listening to.
Click to expand...


You do not want any proof. Eisenhower offered it and proved it and thousands of others have proved it and we have proved it but you are a political ideologue. 
Proof means nothing to ideologues. Your proof is Rush, Sean, Anne and the talking heads on TV. 
Entertainment is your proof. 
Okra is on at 4 today with "My secret affair with Michelle Obama".
Do not miss it. You will get your proof there.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

American Horse said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are dumb as a box of rocks. *THOUSANDS of people were labeled communists by that committee* and their minions everywhere all over America. Only a small fraction of them were on any list.
> I am old enough to remember Tail Gunner Joe, his drunken ways and his lies.
> McCarthy did state that about fluoride. You are in serious denial. The man was a fraud.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> THAT COMMITTEE?  The House Un-American Activities Committee?
> 
> JMcC served as chairman on two senate committees. He was chairman of the "Government Committee on Operations of the Senate," and the "Investigations Subcommittee of the Committee on Expenditures in Executive Departments"
> He was questioned in front of the Tydings Committee which had one purpose, to destroy JMcC, and to limit the exposure of government offices with communist agents working in them.  They did that by making the claim that he only had the names that had come from the Lee list.  He had many more names than those, and with few exceptions they have proven to have been communist agents, working to promote communist not American goals.
> 
> PROVE the flouride claim with documentation.  At one point you said it was "documented."  Show some documentation.
Click to expand...


Amazing.

McCarthy was a Senator and to this day, the Liberal Intellectual Elite Bench Team that posts at USMB thinks he ran the HOUSE Unamerican Activities Committee. In the "Blacklisted" book, Evans shows where the NYTimes crossword perpetuated the lie.

Then they continue to tell the McCarthy Flouride lie and you can't even find it on Wikipedia

You would think that after blowing up like this they might start to question the veracity of everything else they been trained to think about McCarthy....but NOOOOOO!

And once more time for the people in the back: Solomon Adler.


----------



## Gadawg73

McCarthy stated numerous times in the Hortonville debates "fluoride in the water is a communist plot to kill all capitalists.
First hand accounts. Google it and the folks that heard it state it.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Gadawg73 said:


> McCarthy stated numerous times in the Hortonville debates "fluoride in the water is a communist plot to kill all capitalists.
> First hand accounts. Google it and the folks that heard it state it.



Same way Rep. Lewis heard the voice in his head calling him a "******"


----------



## Cecilie1200

CrusaderFrank said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> McCarthy stated numerous times in the Hortonville debates "fluoride in the water is a communist plot to kill all capitalists.
> First hand accounts. Google it and the folks that heard it state it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Same way Rep. Lewis heard the voice in his head calling him a "******"
Click to expand...


I honestly have to say that I don't give a fat rat's ass WHAT McCarthy did or didn't think about fluoride - and if you leftist twits are going to keep babbling about it, at least fucking spell it right.  It's utterly irrelevant to the question here, which is:  WERE THERE COMMUNISTS IN THE STATE DEPARTMENT?!


----------



## JakeStarkey

Cecilie, your twittering above is why folks giggle at you here.  McCarthy was a twit himself, creating an atmosphere of hatred that damaged and ruined thousands.  The fluoride is merely an example of his wierdness and yours.


----------



## HUGGY

Cecilie1200 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> McCarthy stated numerous times in the Hortonville debates "fluoride in the water is a communist plot to kill all capitalists.
> First hand accounts. Google it and the folks that heard it state it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Same way Rep. Lewis heard the voice in his head calling him a "******"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I honestly have to say that I don't give a fat rat's ass WHAT McCarthy did or didn't think about fluoride - and if you leftist twits are going to keep babbling about it, at least fucking spell it right.  It's utterly irrelevant to the question here, which is:  WERE THERE COMMUNISTS IN THE STATE DEPARTMENT?!
Click to expand...


Don't be an idiot Cecile.  It is not now nor was it ever against the law to belong to the communist party.  What it is is stupid because communism doesn't work.  The question you need to be asking is "was there anyone spying on our secrets and providing those secrets to our enemies?"  Yes there were ...not many but they did exist.  We have them now also.  There will always be foreigners trying to steal our ideas and compromise our security.  Communist spies..sure..a handful.  The FBI was investigating them as they are now.  McCarthy didn't find any spies.  What he did was drive them deeper into the fabric of or society and put them on alert to be extra carefull.  Communists in the movie industry were no threat to our country.  Spies come from every country on earth.  Singling out communists for a witch hunt was counter productive and wrong.  It diverted resources to look at idiots that wanted to start communes and took resources away from truly dangerous people.

This country never has been threatened by communists.  Sure there have been some pipe dreamers but like I said they were stupid.  You might try looking at spying as a police matter... be curious...look in places where harm can be done.. focus on those places and people.  Investigating everyone of any political persuasion is foolish and rarely leads to anything.  If someone stood up in the senate and demanded that every muslim must be investigated would you support that?  How about every Korean?..Every Chinese?.. Every Jew?..on and on.  And yes CC.. there have been so called good christians found out to be spies...  Spies have never been that hard to find because they always have to eventually sell or give thier information to someone that wants it.  Just watching embassys catches almost all of them.  The rest get found out travelling to our enemies countries.

Don't be so easily duped.


----------



## American Horse

Gadawg73 said:


> McCarthy stated numerous times in the Hortonville debates "fluoride in the water is a communist plot to kill all capitalists.
> First hand accounts. Google it and the folks that heard it state it.



A BLOG: RIFLES AT DAWN: The Commie Plot To Kill Us All

The only one on a page of responses to the words &#8220;Hortonville debates "fluoride in the water&#8230;&#8221;  which turned up is this link and below quote.  
The first was your post here art USMB, the second was this one, and this was the only one that which had the word &#8220;McCarthy&#8221; in the text. None of the others contained the word McCarthy.

And this fits the definition of &#8220;HEARSAY&#8221;



> *The Commie Plot To Kill Us All
> My friend Pat Simms wrote an article in the State Journal about the big fluoride debate in Poynette, and it brought back a flood of childhood memories not only about fluoridating water, but polio, the red menace, fallout shelters, and the like.*
> 
> Some dweeb who&#8217;s a village trustee in Poynette has &#8220;researched&#8221; fluoridation on the internet and has determined to his satisfaction that it&#8217;s poison. Well, it is, Mr. Dweeb, and so is water, if you drink too much of it. Apparently, he and his little committee just shut off the fluoridation equipment and didn&#8217;t tell anybody about it, and when the locals finally found out, they got mad, and are now engaged.
> 
> *I remember the big debates in my small home town of Hortonville, up in the Fox Valley, about fluoridation back in the 50&#8217;s. Joe McCarthy, the man from a few miles away in Appleton who saw commies everywhere, had the public&#8217;s eyes and ears.  This fluoridation thing was just another commie plot to kill all the capitalists, said Senator Joe.* Since I palled around with the village dentist&#8217;s kids, at least I had another perspective on putting fluoride in the water. Long story short, the village board went ahead with the commie plot and never looked back.


----------



## JakeStarkey

The following pulled up very easily on a simple search.  I have not audited them.  I don't need the fluoridation controversy to know McCarthy was an enemy of all that is good in America.

#
Water fluoridation controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
... who "believed flouridated water was a Jewish plot to weaken the white race." ..... Senator Joe McCarthy. University of California Press. pp. 21&#8211;22. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fluoridation_controversy - Cached
#
HorsesAss.Org » Blog Archive » Pierce County Executive Pat ...
Dec 29, 2008 ... Brylcreem. Pre-flouride dentists stuffing the holes in kids' teeth with mercury. Joe McCarthy. Lynchings. The strange things we all ate. ...
horsesass.org/?p=11259 - Cached - Similar
#
Newsvine - 1950's Republican were Right: Fluoride in the Drinking ...
Aug 21, 2009 ... Flouride was and is added to drinking water in order to get rid of it .... The communists were only a group of people that Joe McCarthy ...
rapidreload.newsvine.com/_.../3177648-1950s-republican-were-right-fluoride-in-the-drinking-water-was-a-communist-plot-to-sap-... - Cached - Similar
#
Open Thread | Crooks and Liars
Jun 11, 2009 ... Fri, 06/12/2009 - 00:20 &#8212; Uncle Joe Mccarthy .... if'n it ain't the mercury, it's the flouride. if'n it ain't the flouride, ...
crooksandliars.com/bluegal/open-thread-183 - Cached
#
Drive-in: Save Free TV : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive
Pay TV....bet it was one of those Communist plots....like putting fluoride in the drinking water. Thank god Joe McCarthy went to the drive-in and caught ...
Internet Archive: Free Movies, Music, Books & Wayback Machine &#8250; ... &#8250; Drive-In Movie Ads - Cached - Similar
#
View topic - Theres gonna be Lithium in our water now.. - School ...
8 posts - 6 authors - Last post: 3 days ago
... osmosis filter take out this shit like it does the flouride? ... in the 1940s as the group was labeled communist by Joseph McCarthy.[3] ...
Information - School Survival Forums... - Cached


----------



## CrusaderFrank

HUGGY said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Same way Rep. Lewis heard the voice in his head calling him a "******"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I honestly have to say that I don't give a fat rat's ass WHAT McCarthy did or didn't think about fluoride - and if you leftist twits are going to keep babbling about it, at least fucking spell it right.  It's utterly irrelevant to the question here, which is:  WERE THERE COMMUNISTS IN THE STATE DEPARTMENT?!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Don't be an idiot Cecile.  It is not now nor was it ever against the law to belong to the communist party.  What it is is stupid because communism doesn't work.  The question you need to be asking is "was there anyone spying on our secrets and providing those secrets to our enemies?"  Yes there were ...not many but they did exist.  We have them now also.  There will always be foreigners trying to steal our ideas and compromise our security.  Communist spies..sure..a handful.  The FBI was investigating them as they are now.  McCarthy didn't find any spies.  What he did was drive them deeper into the fabric of or society and put them on alert to be extra carefull.  Communists in the movie industry were no threat to our country.  Spies come from every country on earth.  Singling out communists for a witch hunt was counter productive and wrong.  It diverted resources to look at idiots that wanted to start communes and took resources away from truly dangerous people.
> 
> This country never has been threatened by communists.  Sure there have been some pipe dreamers but like I said they were stupid.  You might try looking at spying as a police matter... be curious...look in places where harm can be done.. focus on those places and people.  Investigating everyone of any political persuasion is foolish and rarely leads to anything.  If someone stood up in the senate and demanded that every muslim must be investigated would you support that?  How about every Korean?..Every Chinese?.. Every Jew?..on and on.  And yes CC.. there have been so called good christians found out to be spies...  Spies have never been that hard to find because they always have to eventually sell or give thier information to someone that wants it.  Just watching embassys catches almost all of them.  The rest get found out travelling to our enemies countries.
> 
> Don't be so easily duped.
Click to expand...


Speaking of foolish, you realize that McCarthy had NOTHING to do with the HUAC and the "Movie industry", right?

I love how the Left does not realize how totally foolish they look as, in the year 2010, they parrot back all the stuff they were brainwashed about McCarthy: that he blacklisted people in Hollywood, that he was against fluoridation of water and that there were no Communists at the State Department.

McCarthy nailed it! FDR took advise from genuine Communists spies against the better interests of America because State AND Treasury were home to genuine honest to God traitirs who should have been executed with the Rosenbergs.


----------



## American Horse

JakeStarkey said:


> The following pulled up very easily on a simple search.  I have not audited them.  I don't need the fluoridation controversy to know McCarthy was an enemy of all that is good in America.
> 
> #
> Water fluoridation controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> ... who "believed flouridated water was a Jewish plot to weaken the white race." ..... Senator Joe McCarthy. University of California Press. pp. 21&#8211;22. ...
> 
> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fluoridation_controversy - Cached



I looked at the first one; which individual case of the above provides primary source material that ties JMcM into the flouiride claim?  JUST ONE PLEASE, not a page full of tangential links.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

JakeStarkey said:


> The following pulled up very easily on a simple search.  I have not audited them.  I don't need the fluoridation controversy to know McCarthy was an enemy of all that is good in America.
> 
> #
> Water fluoridation controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> ... who "believed flouridated water was a Jewish plot to weaken the white race." ..... Senator Joe McCarthy. University of California Press. pp. 21&#8211;22. ...
> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fluoridation_controversy - Cached
> #
> HorsesAss.Org » Blog Archive » Pierce County Executive Pat ...
> Dec 29, 2008 ... Brylcreem. Pre-flouride dentists stuffing the holes in kids' teeth with mercury. Joe McCarthy. Lynchings. The strange things we all ate. ...
> horsesass.org/?p=11259 - Cached - Similar
> #
> Newsvine - 1950's Republican were Right: Fluoride in the Drinking ...
> Aug 21, 2009 ... Flouride was and is added to drinking water in order to get rid of it .... The communists were only a group of people that Joe McCarthy ...
> rapidreload.newsvine.com/_.../3177648-1950s-republican-were-right-fluoride-in-the-drinking-water-was-a-communist-plot-to-sap-... - Cached - Similar
> #
> Open Thread | Crooks and Liars
> Jun 11, 2009 ... Fri, 06/12/2009 - 00:20 &#8212; Uncle Joe Mccarthy .... if'n it ain't the mercury, it's the flouride. if'n it ain't the flouride, ...
> crooksandliars.com/bluegal/open-thread-183 - Cached
> #
> Drive-in: Save Free TV : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive
> Pay TV....bet it was one of those Communist plots....like putting fluoride in the drinking water. Thank god Joe McCarthy went to the drive-in and caught ...
> Internet Archive: Free Movies, Music, Books & Wayback Machine &#8250; ... &#8250; Drive-In Movie Ads - Cached - Similar
> #
> View topic - Theres gonna be Lithium in our water now.. - School ...
> 8 posts - 6 authors - Last post: 3 days ago
> ... osmosis filter take out this shit like it does the flouride? ... in the 1940s as the group was labeled communist by Joseph McCarthy.[3] ...
> Information - School Survival Forums... - Cached



Thank you for highlighting how besides the Progressives desire to mention McCarthy and Fluoride in the same sentence there is nothing, no first hand account, no articles, no speeches, no original material whatsoever to the the McCarthy/Fluoride allegations.

You have been brainwashed, Comrade and in your case it took a mist of water and almost no soap.

Thanks for the new "McCarthy as anti-Semite" material


----------



## JakeStarkey

The book by Hermann, JM's primary defender, would be the first place to look for a scholarly material.  Hermann's a homer, but I am sure he would address the issue.  Ask Political Chic, I bet she has a copy.


----------



## American Horse

JakeStarkey said:


> The book by Hermann, JM's primary defender, would be the first place to look for a scholarly material.  Hermann's a homer, but I am sure he would address the issue.  Ask Political Chic, I bet she has a copy.



I have it, and it's not mentioned in Herman's book.  People who study history understand the importance of primary sources.  Evan's book "Blacklisted ..." was full of ONLY primary sources.  

ANYONE serious about studying history of any period realizes one cannot get an accurate historical accounting by reading from rumour mills (read bloggs, or other hearsay accounts)    

Frank's OP was about the amount of primary material that has disappeared from the public record, and national archives. We need to ask the question why would such material have need of disappearing if it was not in conflict with "popular wisdom?"  
That is a fair question to ask.

But even though important archival material disappears,  (stolen/destroyed), the dilligent historian can turn much of it up.  Virtally everything in the 58 pages of references and actual copies of documents in Evan's book largely go against the case that was made against McCarthy, and the subsequent hysteria.


----------



## HUGGY

CrusaderFrank said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I honestly have to say that I don't give a fat rat's ass WHAT McCarthy did or didn't think about fluoride - and if you leftist twits are going to keep babbling about it, at least fucking spell it right.  It's utterly irrelevant to the question here, which is:  WERE THERE COMMUNISTS IN THE STATE DEPARTMENT?!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't be an idiot Cecile.  It is not now nor was it ever against the law to belong to the communist party.  What it is is stupid because communism doesn't work.  The question you need to be asking is "was there anyone spying on our secrets and providing those secrets to our enemies?"  Yes there were ...not many but they did exist.  We have them now also.  There will always be foreigners trying to steal our ideas and compromise our security.  Communist spies..sure..a handful.  The FBI was investigating them as they are now.  McCarthy didn't find any spies.  What he did was drive them deeper into the fabric of or society and put them on alert to be extra carefull.  Communists in the movie industry were no threat to our country.  Spies come from every country on earth.  Singling out communists for a witch hunt was counter productive and wrong.  It diverted resources to look at idiots that wanted to start communes and took resources away from truly dangerous people.
> 
> This country never has been threatened by communists.  Sure there have been some pipe dreamers but like I said they were stupid.  You might try looking at spying as a police matter... be curious...look in places where harm can be done.. focus on those places and people.  Investigating everyone of any political persuasion is foolish and rarely leads to anything.  If someone stood up in the senate and demanded that every muslim must be investigated would you support that?  How about every Korean?..Every Chinese?.. Every Jew?..on and on.  And yes CC.. there have been so called good christians found out to be spies...  Spies have never been that hard to find because they always have to eventually sell or give thier information to someone that wants it.  Just watching embassys catches almost all of them.  The rest get found out travelling to our enemies countries.
> 
> Don't be so easily duped.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Speaking of foolish, you realize that McCarthy had NOTHING to do with the HUAC and the "Movie industry", right?*
> I love how the Left does not realize how totally foolish they look as, in the year 2010, they parrot back all the stuff they were brainwashed about McCarthy: that he blacklisted people in Hollywood, that he was against fluoridation of water and that there were no Communists at the State Department.
> 
> McCarthy nailed it! FDR took advise from genuine Communists spies against the better interests of America because State AND Treasury were home to genuine honest to God traitirs who should have been executed with the Rosenbergs.
Click to expand...


That is not true and I'm sure you know it Frankie.

America was a much different place in 1954.  There was no 1,000,000 places to get information like there is today.  We had just defeated fascism and tyranny all over the planet in a world war fighting for our very existence in a conflict not of our choosing.  Totalitarianism disguised as Communism was a serious threat to enslave a world that had just recently rescued itself from another attempt at enslavement.  Nothing like our modern world where we have no serious challenge to our spot on the food chain.

People everywhere in our country were very respectful of government and our military.  We were conditioned to accept authority out of necessity.  Our very survival demanded unquestioned acquiescence to our leadership.  That is the stage McCarthy took in his vile witch hunt.  The ripple effect was a shock wave of over reaction out of patriotism and our recent bunker them vs us mentality.  You Frankie are doing the same thing in reverse ..using the freedom of our expression as it is today as if to suggest that McCarthy was just one guy..what's the big deal?  That is extremely dishonest.  When it came to information absorbed by the public there was no other guy.  No diversion from what we saw countered the venom McCarthy spewed until a handful of genuine American leaders had had enough of that piece of shit.  He and he alone spear headed the extreme attitude that in fact the first amendment was irrelevant.  He is despised for his demagoguery for good reason.


----------



## HUGGY

CrusaderFrank said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I honestly have to say that I don't give a fat rat's ass WHAT McCarthy did or didn't think about fluoride - and if you leftist twits are going to keep babbling about it, at least fucking spell it right.  It's utterly irrelevant to the question here, which is:  WERE THERE COMMUNISTS IN THE STATE DEPARTMENT?!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't be an idiot Cecile.  It is not now nor was it ever against the law to belong to the communist party.  What it is is stupid because communism doesn't work.  The question you need to be asking is "was there anyone spying on our secrets and providing those secrets to our enemies?"  Yes there were ...not many but they did exist.  We have them now also.  There will always be foreigners trying to steal our ideas and compromise our security.  Communist spies..sure..a handful.  The FBI was investigating them as they are now.  McCarthy didn't find any spies.  What he did was drive them deeper into the fabric of or society and put them on alert to be extra carefull.  Communists in the movie industry were no threat to our country.  Spies come from every country on earth.  Singling out communists for a witch hunt was counter productive and wrong.  It diverted resources to look at idiots that wanted to start communes and took resources away from truly dangerous people.
> 
> This country never has been threatened by communists.  Sure there have been some pipe dreamers but like I said they were stupid.  You might try looking at spying as a police matter... be curious...look in places where harm can be done.. focus on those places and people.  Investigating everyone of any political persuasion is foolish and rarely leads to anything.  If someone stood up in the senate and demanded that every muslim must be investigated would you support that?  How about every Korean?..Every Chinese?.. Every Jew?..on and on.  And yes CC.. there have been so called good christians found out to be spies...  Spies have never been that hard to find because they always have to eventually sell or give thier information to someone that wants it.  Just watching embassys catches almost all of them.  The rest get found out travelling to our enemies countries.
> 
> Don't be so easily duped.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Speaking of foolish, you realize that McCarthy had NOTHING to do with the HUAC and the "Movie industry", right?*
> I love how the Left does not realize how totally foolish they look as, in the year 2010, they parrot back all the stuff they were brainwashed about McCarthy: that he blacklisted people in Hollywood, that he was against fluoridation of water and that there were no Communists at the State Department.
> 
> McCarthy nailed it! FDR took advise from genuine Communists spies against the better interests of America because State AND Treasury were home to genuine honest to God traitirs who should have been executed with the Rosenbergs.
Click to expand...


That is not true and I'm sure you know it Frankie.

America was a much different place in 1954.  There was no 1,000,000 places to get information like there is today.  We had just defeated fascism and tyranny all over the planet in a world war fighting for our very existence in a conflict not of our choosing.  Totalitarianism disguised as Communism was a serious threat to enslave a world that had just recently rescued itself from another attempt at enslavement.  Nothing like our modern world where we have no serious challenge to our spot on the food chain.

People everywhere in our country were very respectful of government and our military.  We were conditioned to accept authority out of necessity.  Our very survival demanded unquestioned acquiescence to our leadership.  That is the stage McCarthy took in his vile witch hunt.  The ripple effect was a shock wave of over reaction out of patriotism and our then recent bunker "them vs us" mentality.  You Frankie are doing the same thing in reverse ..using the freedom of our expression as it is today as if to suggest that McCarthy was just one guy..what's the big deal?  That is extremely dishonest.  When it came to information absorbed by the public there was no other guy.  No diversion from what we saw countered the venom McCarthy spewed until a handful of genuine American leaders had had enough of that piece of shit.  He and he alone spear headed the extreme attitude that in fact the first amendment was irrelevant.  He is despised for his demagoguery for good reason.  Your poor judgement in attempting to paint over the harm he caused is harmful in it's own right.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

HUGGY said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't be an idiot Cecile.  It is not now nor was it ever against the law to belong to the communist party.  What it is is stupid because communism doesn't work.  The question you need to be asking is "was there anyone spying on our secrets and providing those secrets to our enemies?"  Yes there were ...not many but they did exist.  We have them now also.  There will always be foreigners trying to steal our ideas and compromise our security.  Communist spies..sure..a handful.  The FBI was investigating them as they are now.  McCarthy didn't find any spies.  What he did was drive them deeper into the fabric of or society and put them on alert to be extra carefull.  Communists in the movie industry were no threat to our country.  Spies come from every country on earth.  Singling out communists for a witch hunt was counter productive and wrong.  It diverted resources to look at idiots that wanted to start communes and took resources away from truly dangerous people.
> 
> This country never has been threatened by communists.  Sure there have been some pipe dreamers but like I said they were stupid.  You might try looking at spying as a police matter... be curious...look in places where harm can be done.. focus on those places and people.  Investigating everyone of any political persuasion is foolish and rarely leads to anything.  If someone stood up in the senate and demanded that every muslim must be investigated would you support that?  How about every Korean?..Every Chinese?.. Every Jew?..on and on.  And yes CC.. there have been so called good christians found out to be spies...  Spies have never been that hard to find because they always have to eventually sell or give thier information to someone that wants it.  Just watching embassys catches almost all of them.  The rest get found out travelling to our enemies countries.
> 
> Don't be so easily duped.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Speaking of foolish, you realize that McCarthy had NOTHING to do with the HUAC and the "Movie industry", right?*
> I love how the Left does not realize how totally foolish they look as, in the year 2010, they parrot back all the stuff they were brainwashed about McCarthy: that he blacklisted people in Hollywood, that he was against fluoridation of water and that there were no Communists at the State Department.
> 
> McCarthy nailed it! FDR took advise from genuine Communists spies against the better interests of America because State AND Treasury were home to genuine honest to God traitirs who should have been executed with the Rosenbergs.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is not true and I'm sure you know it Frankie.
> 
> America was a much different place in 1954.  There was no 1,000,000 places to get information like there is today.  We had just defeated fascism and tyranny all over the planet in a world war fighting for our very existence in a conflict not of our choosing.  Totalitarianism disguised as Communism was a serious threat to enslave a world that had just recently rescued itself from another attempt at enslavement.  Nothing like our modern world where we have no serious challenge to our spot on the food chain.
> 
> People everywhere in our country were very respectful of government and our military.  We were conditioned to accept authority out of necessity.  Our very survival demanded unquestioned acquiescence to our leadership.  That is the stage McCarthy took in his vile witch hunt.  The ripple effect was a shock wave of over reaction out of patriotism and our recent bunker them vs us mentality.  You Frankie are doing the same thing in reverse ..using the freedom of our expression as it is today as if to suggest that McCarthy was just one guy..what's the big deal?  That is extremely dishonest.  When it came to information absorbed by the public there was no other guy.  No diversion from what we saw countered the venom McCarthy spewed until a handful of genuine American leaders had had enough of that piece of shit.  He and he alone spear headed the extreme attitude that in fact the first amendment was irrelevant.  He is despised for his demagoguery for good reason.
Click to expand...


You're spewing back lies and nonsense that you never critically examined just decided to take as your own thoughts.

Progressives made an issue of McCarthy simply because he correctly exposed Soviet espionage in the US Government.  

I thought you would at least take a look at how new material has totally vindicated McCarthy and I think that one day you eventually might.


----------



## HUGGY

CrusaderFrank said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Speaking of foolish, you realize that McCarthy had NOTHING to do with the HUAC and the "Movie industry", right?*
> I love how the Left does not realize how totally foolish they look as, in the year 2010, they parrot back all the stuff they were brainwashed about McCarthy: that he blacklisted people in Hollywood, that he was against fluoridation of water and that there were no Communists at the State Department.
> 
> McCarthy nailed it! FDR took advise from genuine Communists spies against the better interests of America because State AND Treasury were home to genuine honest to God traitirs who should have been executed with the Rosenbergs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is not true and I'm sure you know it Frankie.
> 
> America was a much different place in 1954.  There was no 1,000,000 places to get information like there is today.  We had just defeated fascism and tyranny all over the planet in a world war fighting for our very existence in a conflict not of our choosing.  Totalitarianism disguised as Communism was a serious threat to enslave a world that had just recently rescued itself from another attempt at enslavement.  Nothing like our modern world where we have no serious challenge to our spot on the food chain.
> 
> People everywhere in our country were very respectful of government and our military.  We were conditioned to accept authority out of necessity.  Our very survival demanded unquestioned acquiescence to our leadership.  That is the stage McCarthy took in his vile witch hunt.  The ripple effect was a shock wave of over reaction out of patriotism and our recent bunker them vs us mentality.  You Frankie are doing the same thing in reverse ..using the freedom of our expression as it is today as if to suggest that McCarthy was just one guy..what's the big deal?  That is extremely dishonest.  When it came to information absorbed by the public there was no other guy.  No diversion from what we saw countered the venom McCarthy spewed until a handful of genuine American leaders had had enough of that piece of shit.  He and he alone spear headed the extreme attitude that in fact the first amendment was irrelevant.  He is despised for his demagoguery for good reason.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're spewing back lies and nonsense that you never critically examined just decided to take as your own thoughts.
> 
> Progressives made an issue of McCarthy simply because he correctly exposed Soviet espionage in the US Government.
> 
> I thought you would at least take a look at how new material has totally vindicated McCarthy and I think that one day you eventually might.
Click to expand...


The vile misuse of the public platform did not find anything the FBI was not already aware of.  What it did was ruin lives. What he did was a full frontal assauly on the Constitution.   Sorry Frankie..my experience having lived through the period is rellevant.  I don't give a rats ass if this thread lasts for ten thousand posts.  I will not back down on this.  I will never allow a McCarthy revision to go unchallenged.


----------



## JakeStarkey

American Horse said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> The book by Hermann, JM's primary defender, would be the first place to look for a scholarly material.  Hermann's a homer, but I am sure he would address the issue.  Ask Political Chic, I bet she has a copy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have it, and it's not mentioned in Herman's book.  People who study history understand the importance of primary sources.  Evan's book "Blacklisted ..." was full of ONLY primary sources.
> 
> ANYONE serious about studying history of any period realizes one cannot get an accurate historical accounting by reading from rumour mills (read bloggs, but other accounts which are hearsay)
> 
> Frank's OP was about the amount of primary material that has disappeared from the public record, and national archives. We need to ask the question why would such material have need of disappearing if it was not in conflict with "popular wisdom?"
> That is a fair question to ask.
> 
> But even though important archival material disappears,  (stolen/destroyed), the dilligent historian can turn much of it up.  Virtally everything in the 58 pages of references and actual copies of documents in Evan's book largely go against the case that was made against McCarthy, and the subsequent hysteria.
Click to expand...


Hmmm, now I get to go down to the library and check out a copy of Hermann to double check your comment.  If you are right, I will acknowledge.  If you aren't, I will acknowledge that as well.

I agree that primary materials are important, and the interpretation from those materials are as important.  The question of course with Evans is that he has not covered competently all the primary sources that discredit McCarthy, thus failing to meet the historian's duty.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Here is an interesting review of Joseph McCarthy: Reexamining the Life and Legacy of America&#8217;s Most Hated Senator By Arthur Herman (New York: Free Press, 2000. Pp. vi, 404. $26 cloth.)

McCarthy and His Enemies, Revisited  by Larry I. Bland

*A POLITICAL TRACT DISGUISED AS A SCHOLARLY history*, this book is intended to be a contribution to the right-wing side of the current &#8220;culture war&#8221; in the United States. Nevertheless, it could have been written in 1956 as a companion piece to William Buckley and Brent Bozell&#8217;s McCarthy and His Enemies. Contrary to appearances, the author is not McCarthy&#8217;s defense lawyer but a cultural historian who received his Ph.D. in history from Johns Hopkins University (1985), is adjunct professor at George Mason University, and coordinator of the Western Civilization Program at the Smithsonian Institution. In 1997 he published The Idea of Decline in Western History.

According to Herman, McCarthy was justified and correct in all important political ideas and actions. The senator&#8217;s liberal enemies in academia, government, and the media were elitist gullible fools (at best). Sometimes they were irresponsibly blind (&#8220;in complicity with evil&#8221 to the enormous danger communist subversion and propaganda posed to American society, but just as often they were actual traitors or Marxist-inclined dupes. Revisionist and antiwar writers of the 1960s and after are the ideological descendants of this evil crew.

*The author uses several techniques to defend the senator.*

      The first is to admit that his hero had certain human flaws, which he then explains away. Was McCarthy an alcoholic? Yes, but not &#8220;an abusive or violent drunk.&#8221;

      Second, tu quoque arguments. Did McCarthy do deed X of dubious fairness or morality? Yes, but the liberals did it first and worse.

      Third, everybody-does-it (i.e., lies, distorts, leaks documents, etc.).

      Fourth, it was worse elsewhere or at another time (i.e., not that many people were sent to jail or had their careers damaged between 1947 and 1954, and besides the Red Scare of 1919-20 was worse, and McCarthy&#8217;s actions were trivial compared to Stalin&#8217;s purges and gulags).

      Fifth, be certain to select only the most outré, context-less quotes by McCarthy&#8217;s critics.

*      Sixth, be entirely innocent of the content of the past half century of diplomatic history writings when you assert such silly chestnuts such as: Harry Hopkins believed every lie that the Marxists told him, that Alger Hiss played an important role in the &#8220;disastrous decisions at Yalta,&#8221; or that China was lost when George C. Marshall &#8212; encouraged by Commie-symp types like John Stewart Service &#8212; embargoed military supplies to Chiang Kai-shek in 1946, thereby causing Mao&#8217;s victory and high U.S. casualties in the Korean War.*

      Finally, assert that every charge you (or Whittaker Chambers, Elizabeth Bentley, et al.) have made against liberals has been proven true by the Venona transcripts or recent documentary revelations.

Most of the author&#8217;s sources are secondary, but he also uses contemporary publications, published congressional hearings, a few interviews, and some manuscript collections. The book is nicely published, illustrated, and indexed. Nobody left of Jesse Helms or Strom Thurmond will be convinced by the author&#8217;s exegesis, but the book is a must for all conservatives and conspiracy buffs. One presumes that right-wing foundations and corporations will wish to buy it in bulk for distribution to true believers.

http://www.unc.edu/depts/diplomat/AD_Issues/amdipl_16/bland_mccarthy.html


----------



## CrusaderFrank

HUGGY said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is not true and I'm sure you know it Frankie.
> 
> America was a much different place in 1954.  There was no 1,000,000 places to get information like there is today.  We had just defeated fascism and tyranny all over the planet in a world war fighting for our very existence in a conflict not of our choosing.  Totalitarianism disguised as Communism was a serious threat to enslave a world that had just recently rescued itself from another attempt at enslavement.  Nothing like our modern world where we have no serious challenge to our spot on the food chain.
> 
> People everywhere in our country were very respectful of government and our military.  We were conditioned to accept authority out of necessity.  Our very survival demanded unquestioned acquiescence to our leadership.  That is the stage McCarthy took in his vile witch hunt.  The ripple effect was a shock wave of over reaction out of patriotism and our recent bunker them vs us mentality.  You Frankie are doing the same thing in reverse ..using the freedom of our expression as it is today as if to suggest that McCarthy was just one guy..what's the big deal?  That is extremely dishonest.  When it came to information absorbed by the public there was no other guy.  No diversion from what we saw countered the venom McCarthy spewed until a handful of genuine American leaders had had enough of that piece of shit.  He and he alone spear headed the extreme attitude that in fact the first amendment was irrelevant.  He is despised for his demagoguery for good reason.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're spewing back lies and nonsense that you never critically examined just decided to take as your own thoughts.
> 
> Progressives made an issue of McCarthy simply because he correctly exposed Soviet espionage in the US Government.
> 
> I thought you would at least take a look at how new material has totally vindicated McCarthy and I think that one day you eventually might.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The vile misuse of the public platform did not find anything the FBI was not already aware of.  What it did was ruin lives. What he did was a full frontal assauly on the Constitution.   Sorry Frankie..my experience having lived through the period is rellevant.  I don't give a rats ass if this thread lasts for ten thousand posts.  I will not back down on this.  I will never allow a McCarthy revision to go unchallenged.
Click to expand...


Some people like Solomon Adler and Cedric Belfrage needed to have their lives ruined.

I've mentioned Solomon Adler at least 6 times, have you looked him up even once?


----------



## CrusaderFrank

JakeStarkey said:


> American Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> The book by Hermann, JM's primary defender, would be the first place to look for a scholarly material.  Hermann's a homer, but I am sure he would address the issue.  Ask Political Chic, I bet she has a copy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have it, and it's not mentioned in Herman's book.  People who study history understand the importance of primary sources.  Evan's book "Blacklisted ..." was full of ONLY primary sources.
> 
> ANYONE serious about studying history of any period realizes one cannot get an accurate historical accounting by reading from rumour mills (read bloggs, but other accounts which are hearsay)
> 
> Frank's OP was about the amount of primary material that has disappeared from the public record, and national archives. We need to ask the question why would such material have need of disappearing if it was not in conflict with "popular wisdom?"
> That is a fair question to ask.
> 
> But even though important archival material disappears,  (stolen/destroyed), the dilligent historian can turn much of it up.  Virtally everything in the 58 pages of references and actual copies of documents in Evan's book largely go against the case that was made against McCarthy, and the subsequent hysteria.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Hmmm, now I get to go down to the library and check out a copy of Hermann to double check your comment.  If you are right, I will acknowledge.  If you aren't, I will acknowledge that as well.
> 
> I agree that primary materials are important, and the interpretation from those materials are as important.  The question of course with Evans is that he has not covered competently all the primary sources that discredit McCarthy, thus failing to meet the historian's duty.
Click to expand...


But, of course, you know that without troubling yourself to even look at Evans book because that's the very first thing he covers

Did you get that by telepathy or did your Progressives friends tell you?


----------



## Cecilie1200

CrusaderFrank said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> You're spewing back lies and nonsense that you never critically examined just decided to take as your own thoughts.
> 
> Progressives made an issue of McCarthy simply because he correctly exposed Soviet espionage in the US Government.
> 
> I thought you would at least take a look at how new material has totally vindicated McCarthy and I think that one day you eventually might.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The vile misuse of the public platform did not find anything the FBI was not already aware of.  What it did was ruin lives. What he did was a full frontal assauly on the Constitution.   Sorry Frankie..my experience having lived through the period is rellevant.  I don't give a rats ass if this thread lasts for ten thousand posts.  I will not back down on this.  I will never allow a McCarthy revision to go unchallenged.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Some people like Solomon Adler and Cedric Belfrage needed to have their lives ruined.
> 
> I've mentioned Solomon Adler at least 6 times, have you looked him up even once?
Click to expand...


McCarthy wasn't trying to turn up anything new, despite popular belief (and no one but the FBI at the time knew that the FBI knew this stuff.  They didn't tell anyone because they didn't want the Soviets to know they could decrypt their messages).  McCarthy's purpose in doing what he did was to find out why our government was giving security clearances to people who should never have gotten them.  All the drivel about "it wasn't illegal to be a Communist" aside, it was the equivalent of our current government hiring known al Qaeda sympathizers to work at the State Department.


----------



## Gadawg73

What Coulter failed to reveal in her "tell all" book is that there were already undercover investigations into most of the named communists in the state department long before McCarthy said there were there. In fact, the McCarthy blabber mouth hearings derailed most of those undercover investigations that took years to develop.
Even a blind squirrel can find a nut once in a blue moon.
What you folks fail to realize is that you seek to turn spies for INFORMATION. Ideology has no power and the knowledge of someone's ideology has no useful purpose in espionage. INFORMATION is power and no one cares what ideology you are as long as the information is credible and valuable.
The fact that McCarthy pointed out a handfull of already known communist spies out of the thousands he incorrectly labeled is proof that his methods are wrong.
In America you SHOULD NEVER have toprove yourself innocent. McCarthy labeled thousands as communists without any proof and each and every one of themhad to go prove their innocense.
That is UnAmerican. The accused never has to prove anything under our system of justice. It is always the burden of the accuser to prove their case BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT. Out of the thousands McCarthy accused how many were convicted of anything. Case closed. 
In America, YOU ARE ALWAYS PRESUMED INNOCENT.
And McCarthy violated that sacred foundation of American society. It was not tolerated then, he was exposed as a fraud for doing so and that foundation continues today. If you do not like that then find another country to live in.


----------



## PoliticalChic

JakeStarkey said:


> Here is an interesting review of Joseph McCarthy: Reexamining the Life and Legacy of America&#8217;s Most Hated Senator By Arthur Herman (New York: Free Press, 2000. Pp. vi, 404. $26 cloth.)
> 
> McCarthy and His Enemies, Revisited  by Larry I. Bland
> 
> *A POLITICAL TRACT DISGUISED AS A SCHOLARLY history*, this book is intended to be a contribution to the right-wing side of the current &#8220;culture war&#8221; in the United States. Nevertheless, it could have been written in 1956 as a companion piece to William Buckley and Brent Bozell&#8217;s McCarthy and His Enemies. Contrary to appearances, the author is not McCarthy&#8217;s defense lawyer but a cultural historian who received his Ph.D. in history from Johns Hopkins University (1985), is adjunct professor at George Mason University, and coordinator of the Western Civilization Program at the Smithsonian Institution. In 1997 he published The Idea of Decline in Western History.
> 
> According to Herman, McCarthy was justified and correct in all important political ideas and actions. The senator&#8217;s liberal enemies in academia, government, and the media were elitist gullible fools (at best). Sometimes they were irresponsibly blind (&#8220;in complicity with evil&#8221 to the enormous danger communist subversion and propaganda posed to American society, but just as often they were actual traitors or Marxist-inclined dupes. Revisionist and antiwar writers of the 1960s and after are the ideological descendants of this evil crew.
> 
> *The author uses several techniques to defend the senator.*
> 
> The first is to admit that his hero had certain human flaws, which he then explains away. Was McCarthy an alcoholic? Yes, but not &#8220;an abusive or violent drunk.&#8221;
> 
> Second, tu quoque arguments. Did McCarthy do deed X of dubious fairness or morality? Yes, but the liberals did it first and worse.
> 
> Third, everybody-does-it (i.e., lies, distorts, leaks documents, etc.).
> 
> Fourth, it was worse elsewhere or at another time (i.e., not that many people were sent to jail or had their careers damaged between 1947 and 1954, and besides the Red Scare of 1919-20 was worse, and McCarthy&#8217;s actions were trivial compared to Stalin&#8217;s purges and gulags).
> 
> Fifth, be certain to select only the most outré, context-less quotes by McCarthy&#8217;s critics.
> 
> *      Sixth, be entirely innocent of the content of the past half century of diplomatic history writings when you assert such silly chestnuts such as: Harry Hopkins believed every lie that the Marxists told him, that Alger Hiss played an important role in the &#8220;disastrous decisions at Yalta,&#8221; or that China was lost when George C. Marshall &#8212; encouraged by Commie-symp types like John Stewart Service &#8212; embargoed military supplies to Chiang Kai-shek in 1946, thereby causing Mao&#8217;s victory and high U.S. casualties in the Korean War.*
> 
> Finally, assert that every charge you (or Whittaker Chambers, Elizabeth Bentley, et al.) have made against liberals has been proven true by the Venona transcripts or recent documentary revelations.
> 
> Most of the author&#8217;s sources are secondary, but he also uses contemporary publications, published congressional hearings, a few interviews, and some manuscript collections. The book is nicely published, illustrated, and indexed. Nobody left of Jesse Helms or Strom Thurmond will be convinced by the author&#8217;s exegesis, but the book is a must for all conservatives and conspiracy buffs. One presumes that right-wing foundations and corporations will wish to buy it in bulk for distribution to true believers.
> 
> Bland | McCarthy and His Enemies




While interesting, the views of the late Dr. Bland tend to be conclusory, if not altogether convincing...

While at the library you might pick up Mitrokhin's book...

Mitrokhin kept the archives for the KGB, and therefore, I contend his view to be more dispositve as to the veracity of Senator McCarthy and other fighters of communist infiltration.

&#8216;The Sword and the Shield: The Mitrokhin Archives, the History of the  KGB,&#8221; by Christopher Andrew and Vasili Mitrokhin.

But, if you are too busy, here are some of my notes on the tome.

1.	This top archives was described by the FBI as &#8220;the most complete and extensive intelligence ever achieved from any source.&#8221;

2.	Vasili Mitrokhin  worked for 30 years in the foreign intelligence archives of the KGB. In 1972 he was made responsible for moving the entire archives to new headquarters in Moscow. But Mitrokhin spent over a decade making notes and transcripts of these classified files. In 1992, British Secret Intelligence Service exfiltrated the defector, and his presence in the west remained secret until the publication of this book.

3.	December 20, 1917 The KGB traces its origins to this date, six weeks after the Bolshevik Revolution, with the foundation of the Cheka, the first Soviet security and intelligence agency. KGB officers were, in fact, paid on the 20th of each month in honor of the Cheka&#8217;s birthday. The KGB adopted the Cheka symbol&#8217;s of the sword and the shield: the shield to defend the revolution, and the sword to smite its enemies.

4.	Mitrokhin named some rather diverse individual in whom Soviet placed high hopes on the eve of WW II: Laurence Duggan (agent &#8217;19,&#8217; later FRANK) in the State Department; Michael Straight (NIGEL), State Department; Martha Dodd Stern (LIZA), daughter of the former US ambassador to Germany, and the wife of Alfred Kaufman Stern (also a Soviet agent); Martha&#8217;s brother William E. Doss, jr. (PRESIDENT), who had run for Congress as a Democrat; Harry Dexter White in the Treasury Department (KASSIR and JURIST); an agent codenamed MORIS, probably John Abt in the Justice Department; Boris Morros (FROST), Hollywood producer; Mary Wolfe Price (KID and DIR), secretary to Walter Lippman, and Henry Buchman (KHOSYAIN, &#8216;employer&#8217 owner of a woman&#8217;s fashion salon in Baltimore.  [p106]

5.	&#8220;But for the remarkably lax security of the Roosevelt administration, the damage to NKVD operation might have been much worse than the arrest (May 1941) of (Gayk) Ovakimyan&#8221; [head of NKVD legal residency department]. P.107

6.	&#8220;On September 2, 1939, the day after the outbreak of war in Europe, Whittaker Chambers had told much of what he knew about Soviet espionage in the United States to Adolph Berle, Assistant Secretary of State and President&#8217;s Roosevelt&#8217;s advisor on internal security. Immediately afterwards, Berle drew up a memorandum for the President which listed Alger Hiss, Harry Dexter White and the other leading for whom Chambers acted as courier. One was a leading presidential aide, Lauchlin Currie&#8230;.Roosevelt, however, was not interested. He seems to have dismissed the whole idea of espionage rings within his administration as absurd.&#8221; p.107

7.	&#8220;Henry Wallace, vice-president during Roosevelt&#8217;s third term in office (1941-1945), said  later that if the ailing Roosevelt had died during that period and he had become President, it had been his intention to make Duggan his Secretary of State and White his Secretary of Tresury&#8230;The fact that Roosevelt survived into&#8230;a fourth term&#8230;deprived Soviet intelligence of what would have been its most spectacular success in penetrating a major Western government.&#8221;  P.107-8

8. In 1944, in addition to Fuchs, there were two more spies at Los Alamos. &#8220;The first,      David Greenglass, was recruited through a group of S & T agents run by Julius Rosenberg (codenamed ANRWNNA and LIBERAL), A 26-year-old New York Communist with a degree in electrical engineering. Like Fuchs, the members of the Rosenberg ring, who included his wife, Ethel, had been rewarded with cash bonuses in the summer.&#8221; Ibid, p.128

    9. &#8220;The New York residency also reported in November 1944 that the precociously       brilliant nineteen-year old Harvard physicist Theodore Alvin &#8220;Ted&#8221; Hall, (codename MLAD) then working at Los Alamos, had indicated his willingness to collaborate. As well as being inspired by the myth-image of the Soviet worker-peasant state, which was an article of faith for most ideological Soviet agents, Hall convinced himself that an American nuclear monopoly would threaten the peace of the post- war world. Passing the secrets of the MANHATTAN project to Moscow was thus a way &#8216;to help the world&#8217; as well as the Soviet Union.&#8217; &#8221;Ibid, p.128

     10. In November of 1944, &#8220;according to Elizabeth Bentley, there came an urgent           warning from an agent in the White House, Roosevelt&#8217;s administrative assistant Lauchlin Currie. Currie reported that &#8216;the Americans were on the verge of breaking the Soviet code.&#8217; The alarm appears to have subsided when it was discovered that Currie had wrongly concluded that a fire-damaged NKGB codebook obtained by OSS from the Finns would enable Soviet communications (which went through a further, theoretically impenetrable, encipherment by &#8216;one-time pad&#8217 to be decrypted.&#8221; The Sword and the Shield: The Mitrokhin Archives, the History of the  KGB,&#8221; by Christopher Andrew and Vasili Mitrokhin.p.130

   11. &#8220;The most valuable S & T concerned the atomic program. Kurchatov (scientific head of the Soviet atomic project) reported to Beria on September 29, 1944 that intelligence revealed the creation for the MANHATTAN project &#8216;a concentration of scientific and engineering-technical power on a scale never before seen in the history of world science, which has already achieved the most priceless results.&#8217;&#8230;On February 28, 1945 the NKGB submitted to Beria its first comprehensive report on atomic intelligence for two years- also the first to be based on reports from inside Los Alamos&#8230;.based chiefly on intelligence&#8230;from Hall &#8230;and Greenglass. It was probably Hall who first revealed the implosion method of detonating the bomb, thoug a more detailed report on implosion by Fuchs reached Kurchatov on April 6.&#8221; Ibid, p.131.

12. &#8220;It is probable that both Fuchs and H	all independently furnished the plans of the first atomic bomb, &#8230;.Thanks chiefly to Hall and Fuchs, the first Soviet atomic bomb, successfully tested just over four years later, was to be an exact copy of the Alamogordo bomb&#8221; Ibid. p.132

13. Alger Hiss succeeded in becoming part of the American delegation at Yalta.  Stalin managed to win the policy debates, mainly about the future of Poland (which had been conceded to Soviet dominance at Tehran) since he was kept informed about classified intelligence. An idea as to how important Hiss was to Moscow is conveyed by Moscow&#8217;s congratulations to Hiss. Gorsky reported&#8230; in March 1945, after a meeting between Akhmerov and Hiss: &#8216;Recently ALES (Hiss) and his whole group were awarded Soviet decorations. After the Yalta conference, &#8230;passed on to him their gratitude and so on.&#8217; &#8221; &#8216;The Sword and the Shield: The Mitrokhin Archives, the History of the  KGB,&#8221; by Christopher Andrew and Vasili Mitrokhin.p.134 (quoting the Venona decrypts)

14. &#8220;In September (1945) J. Edgar Hoover reported to the White House and the State Department that (defector) Gouzenko had provide information on the activities of a number of Soviet spies in the United States, one of whom was &#8216;an assistant to the Secretary of State&#8217;&#8230;On November 7 (Elizabeth) Bentley&#8230;began revealing what she knew of Soviet espionage&#8230;Next day Hoover sent President Truman&#8217;s military aide a first list of fourteen of those identified by Bentley as supplying information to &#8216;the Soviet espionage system&#8217;: among them Assistant Secretary of the Treasury Harry Dexter White, OSS (CIA) executive assistant Duncan C. Lee, and Roosevelt&#8217;s former aide Lauchlin Currie.&#8221; Ibid, p.142

15. Ted Hall (code name MLAD), who with Klaus Fuchs, were agents of the Soviet union who gave the secrets of the atomic bomb to the Soviets when they worked on the Manhattan project at Los Alamos, while working for his PhD at Chicago University, joined the Communist Party, &#8230;(intending) to work for the Progressive candidate, the naively pro-Soviet Henry Wallace, in the presidential election.&#8221; Albright and Kunstel, &#8220;Bombshell,&#8221; pp.176-8


----------



## PoliticalChic

Gadawg73 said:


> What Coulter failed to reveal in her "tell all" book is that there were already undercover investigations into most of the named communists in the state department long before McCarthy said there were there. In fact, the McCarthy blabber mouth hearings derailed most of those undercover investigations that took years to develop.
> Even a blind squirrel can find a nut once in a blue moon.
> What you folks fail to realize is that you seek to turn spies for INFORMATION. Ideology has no power and the knowledge of someone's ideology has no useful purpose in espionage. INFORMATION is power and no one cares what ideology you are as long as the information is credible and valuable.
> The fact that McCarthy pointed out a handfull of already known communist spies out of the thousands he incorrectly labeled is proof that his methods are wrong.
> In America you SHOULD NEVER have toprove yourself innocent. McCarthy labeled thousands as communists without any proof and each and every one of themhad to go prove their innocense.
> That is UnAmerican. The accused never has to prove anything under our system of justice. It is always the burden of the accuser to prove their case BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT. Out of the thousands McCarthy accused how many were convicted of anything. Case closed.
> In America, YOU ARE ALWAYS PRESUMED INNOCENT.
> And McCarthy violated that sacred foundation of American society. It was not tolerated then, he was exposed as a fraud for doing so and that foundation continues today. If you do not like that then find another country to live in.



"The fact that McCarthy pointed out a handfull of already known communist spies out of *the thousands he incorrectly labeled *is proof that his methods are wrong."

Thousands! Wow!
Then why is ithe 'Litmus Test' so difficult for you, Dullard?

Again, the easily-led brigade fails to ascertain truth, and bathes in a warm bath of  liberal mythology

The litmus test is fairly simpleand you being equally so, it should appeal to you:
If Senator Joseph McCarthy had such a deleterious effect, and ruined so many lives, it should be effortless for you to name a half dozen or so whose lives were so ruined.

1.	If you cannot do so, it clearly casts the lie to your premise.
2.	Ruin does not refer to being insulted. You must show actual damages, i.e. imprisoned and later found innocent of the charges or never working again

You can run, but you can't hide.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Gadawg73 said:


> What Coulter failed to reveal in her "tell all" book is that there were already undercover investigations into most of the named communists in the state department long before McCarthy said there were there. In fact, the McCarthy blabber mouth hearings derailed most of those undercover investigations that took years to develop.
> Even a blind squirrel can find a nut once in a blue moon.
> What you folks fail to realize is that you seek to turn spies for INFORMATION. Ideology has no power and the knowledge of someone's ideology has no useful purpose in espionage. INFORMATION is power and no one cares what ideology you are as long as the information is credible and valuable.
> The fact that McCarthy pointed out a handfull of already known communist spies out of the thousands he incorrectly labeled is proof that his methods are wrong.
> In America you SHOULD NEVER have toprove yourself innocent. McCarthy labeled thousands as communists without any proof and each and every one of themhad to go prove their innocense.
> That is UnAmerican. The accused never has to prove anything under our system of justice. It is always the burden of the accuser to prove their case BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT. Out of the thousands McCarthy accused how many were convicted of anything. Case closed.
> In America, YOU ARE ALWAYS PRESUMED INNOCENT.
> And McCarthy violated that sacred foundation of American society. It was not tolerated then, he was exposed as a fraud for doing so and that foundation continues today. If you do not like that then find another country to live in.



You're flailing wildly beating yourself and whatever points you thought you had nearly to death.

So now you admit that McCarthy did name genuine Communist spies, that shows some improvement, but then you add that he name "Thousands" and the only person who agrees with you might be Jake Starkey.

Then, you seem to think that McCarthy was judge and jury and he had some "Burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt" which is just lunacy.  He was a US Senator.  Got it? A US Senator.

McCarthy never "violated that sacred foundation of American society", instead he violated that sacred foundation of Marxist infiltration of American society: he named Communist spies and he was correct.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

At some point don't people begin to ask themselves, Political Chic has thrown down this gauntlet at least a dozen times:

Again, the easily-led brigade fails to ascertain truth, and bathes in a warm bath of liberal mythology&#8230;

The litmus test is fairly simple&#8230;and you being equally so, it should appeal to you:
If Senator Joseph McCarthy had such a deleterious effect, and &#8216;ruined&#8217; so many lives, it should be effortless for you to name a half dozen or so whose lives were so &#8216;ruined.&#8217;

1. If you cannot do so, it clearly casts the lie to your premise.
2. Ruin does not refer to being insulted. You must show actual damages, i.e. imprisoned and later found innocent of the charges or never working again&#8230;

You can run, but you can't hide.
*
AND NOT ONE PERSON HAS VENTURED TO SITE A SINGLE NAME!*


----------



## Gadawg73

As usual, chic, you side step and run fromthe issues likea monkey on fire.
Many thousands were accused but you go by your Wikipedia lists because of laziness and a complete lack of investigative skills. I have had my detective agency license since 1982.
Who was prosecuted out of all the accused? Maybe 120?
How come? Because there was NO evidence to prosecute
You know that the entire thing was a circus resulting in nothing at all with most prosecutions.
I do not go by your so called litmus test. 
I go by the US Constitution and the law. 
If you do not know that thousands were looked into and notes taken by his committe and staff during the Red Scare days then you are uninformed.
I go by the rules of law and criminal procedure, something you know nothing about and have no respect for. I have worked investigating criminal cases for trial for 30 years.
You would do well to do read about Edward R. Murrow, a friend of my just deceased father and of our family since the 1930s. Murrow was from North Carolina and grew up near where Dad went to college at Guilford College 1938-1942.
Was Murrow a liberal? Read about him and his investigation of McCArthy AT THE TIME.
The likes of you advocated the practice of "it is okay to go soft on the Constituion in an effort to fight communism"
You are too young,naiveand gulluible to know any better chic but I will again attempt to educate you up from your ignorance. Ever heard of the cases prosecuted under the Smith Act? 10 defendants were convicted in 1949 under the act. And ALL of the defense attorneys were also sent to jail for defending communists! That is how crazy things were back then but you would not know that as you are an ideologue and have not experienced the real world. And in 1950 Beth Gurley, the head of the ACLU fighting these police state laws, was indicted and 20 or so others were convicted. All of the cases were overturned because of fabricated testimony that was coerced. The prosecution witnesses all admitted they lied in court so they all were set free. All of the Acts that these Congresses passed during the Red Scare were all later deemed unConstitutional in the 1960s with 9-0 decisions.
But you would not know any of those facts because youare blind to reality and did not grow up in it.
You live as an ideologue. Read Murrow for the facts of the day and he was NO liberal.
But you won't do it because your ideology will not allow an unbiased, objective research AND INVESTIGATION of 
ANYTHING.


----------



## PoliticalChic

JakeStarkey said:


> Here is an interesting review of Joseph McCarthy: Reexamining the Life and Legacy of Americas Most Hated Senator By Arthur Herman (New York: Free Press, 2000. Pp. vi, 404. $26 cloth.)
> 
> McCarthy and His Enemies, Revisited  by Larry I. Bland
> 
> *A POLITICAL TRACT DISGUISED AS A SCHOLARLY history*, this book is intended to be a contribution to the right-wing side of the current culture war in the United States. Nevertheless, it could have been written in 1956 as a companion piece to William Buckley and Brent Bozells McCarthy and His Enemies. Contrary to appearances, the author is not McCarthys defense lawyer but a cultural historian who received his Ph.D. in history from Johns Hopkins University (1985), is adjunct professor at George Mason University, and coordinator of the Western Civilization Program at the Smithsonian Institution. In 1997 he published The Idea of Decline in Western History.
> 
> According to Herman, McCarthy was justified and correct in all important political ideas and actions. The senators liberal enemies in academia, government, and the media were elitist gullible fools (at best). Sometimes they were irresponsibly blind (in complicity with evil) to the enormous danger communist subversion and propaganda posed to American society, but just as often they were actual traitors or Marxist-inclined dupes. Revisionist and antiwar writers of the 1960s and after are the ideological descendants of this evil crew.
> 
> *The author uses several techniques to defend the senator.*
> 
> The first is to admit that his hero had certain human flaws, which he then explains away. Was McCarthy an alcoholic? Yes, but not an abusive or violent drunk.
> 
> Second, tu quoque arguments. Did McCarthy do deed X of dubious fairness or morality? Yes, but the liberals did it first and worse.
> 
> Third, everybody-does-it (i.e., lies, distorts, leaks documents, etc.).
> 
> Fourth, it was worse elsewhere or at another time (i.e., not that many people were sent to jail or had their careers damaged between 1947 and 1954, and besides the Red Scare of 1919-20 was worse, and McCarthys actions were trivial compared to Stalins purges and gulags).
> 
> Fifth, be certain to select only the most outré, context-less quotes by McCarthys critics.
> 
> *      Sixth, be entirely innocent of the content of the past half century of diplomatic history writings when you assert such silly chestnuts such as: Harry Hopkins believed every lie that the Marxists told him, that Alger Hiss played an important role in the disastrous decisions at Yalta, or that China was lost when George C. Marshall  encouraged by Commie-symp types like John Stewart Service  embargoed military supplies to Chiang Kai-shek in 1946, thereby causing Maos victory and high U.S. casualties in the Korean War.*
> 
> Finally, assert that every charge you (or Whittaker Chambers, Elizabeth Bentley, et al.) have made against liberals has been proven true by the Venona transcripts or recent documentary revelations.
> 
> Most of the authors sources are secondary, but he also uses contemporary publications, published congressional hearings, a few interviews, and some manuscript collections. The book is nicely published, illustrated, and indexed. Nobody left of Jesse Helms or Strom Thurmond will be convinced by the authors exegesis, but the book is a must for all conservatives and conspiracy buffs. One presumes that right-wing foundations and corporations will wish to buy it in bulk for distribution to true believers.
> 
> Bland | McCarthy and His Enemies



Interesting that your post refers to the Red Scare, "...and besides the Red Scare of 1919-20 was worse,..."

I'm going to guess that you requre a remedial of same...

1. Liberals tend to complain about the McCarthy period as if it were the darkest moment in American history, after slavery. But nothing happened that remotely compares with what Wilson and his fellow progressives foisted on America. Under the Espionage Act of June 1917 and the Sedition Act of May 1918, any criticism of the government, even in your own home could earn you a prison sentence (a law Oliver Wendell Holmes upheld years after the war, arguing that such speech could be banned if it posed a clear and present danger). Schenck v. United States, 249 U.S. 47 (1919)

2.	At its core, fascism is the view that every element of society must work together in spiritual union toward the same goals at the behest of the state. One can see it defined in Mussolini's own summary of the Fascist philosophy: "Tutto nello Stato, niente al di fuori dello Stato, nulla contro lo Stato" (Everything in the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State)  MODERN LEFTISM AS RECYCLED FASCISM 

3. The first true enterprise of this kind was established in the in the United States under the 20th centurys first fascist dictator: Woodrow Wilson. During WW I, under the Progressive Woodrow Wilson, American was a fascist nation.
a. Had the worlds first modern propaganda ministry
b. Political prisoners by the thousands were harassed, beaten, spied upon and thrown in jail for simply expressing private opinions. 
c. The national leader accused foreigners and immigrants of injecting treasonous poison into the  American bloodstream
d.	Newspapers and magazines were closed for criticizing the government
e. Almost 100,000 government propaganda agents were sent out to whip up support for the regime and the war
f. College professors imposed loyalty oaths on their colleagues 
g. Nearly a quarter million goons were given legal authority to beat and intimidate slackers and dissenters
h. Leading artists and writers dedicated their work to proselytizing for the government.
http://www.ncpa.org/pdfs/Classical_Liberalism_vs_Modern_Liberal_Conservatism.pdf p. 9

4. 	The Wilson Propaganda Ministry

a.	George Creel was named to head the Committee on Public Information, the CPI. How liberal was he: served as police commissioner in Denver, depriving policemen of guns and nightsticks(JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie)  Fear was a vital tool, an important element to be bred into the civilian population. (Goldberg, Liberal Fascism, p.109) He recruited about 75,000 "Four Minute Men," who spoke about the War at social events for an ideal length of four minutes, considering that the average human attention span was judged at the time to be four minutes.( George Creel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

b.	The official position of the US government's Committee on Public Information was: "The force of an idea lies in its inspirational value. It matters very little if it is true or false." Journal of Translational Medicine | Full text | Comments on the nonpharmaceutical interventions in New York City and Chicago during the 1918 influenza pandemic

c.	Wilsons Sedition Act, May 1918 banned uttering, printing, writing, or publishing any disloyal, profane, scurrilous, or abusive language about the United States government  of the military.

d.	The postmaster general had authority to deny mailing privileges to any publication: at least 75 were banned. The supply of newsprint was halted by the War Industries Board of any journal that disparaged the draft. 

e.	The censorship of The Masses was prosecuted under the Espionage Act of June 1917, because it carried a cartoon proclaiming that it was a war to make the world safe for capitalism, and editorials praising draft resistors. Six editors trial resulted in hung juries. 

f.	He proclaimed that the greatest threat came from hyphenated Americans: I cannot say too often- any man who carries a hyphen about with him carries a dagger that he is ready to plunge into the vitals of this Republic whenever he gets ready. http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=980DE6D6133FE233A2575BC0A9649D946496D6CF

g.	The Nation, on April 17, 1920, recounted how a clothing salesman received six months in jail for saying that Vladimir Lenin was smart. "The Most Brainiest Man?" The Red Scare and Free Speech in Connecticut   Because the Oklahoma Council of Defense was an extralegal organization, numerous incidents of extreme measures occurred to eliminate dissent. Men were beaten with leather straps and tarred and feathered. OKLAHOMA COUNCIL OF DEFENSE

5.	The Justice Department had its own quasi-official fascisti, the American Protective League, the APL. They has Secret Service badges, and were charged with keeping an eye on neighbors, co-workers and friends, including reading neighbors mail and listening in on their phones with government approval. Membership exceeded a quarter million. Zinn, Howard, The Twentieth Century: A Peoples History, p.89-92
a.	In Rockford, Illinois, the army asked the APL to extract confessions from 21 black soldiers charged with assaulting white women. Barry, The Great Influenza, p. 124.
b.	The APL Vigilante Patrol cracked down on seditious street oratory, and as head crackers against slackers who avoided conscription.


5. The Justice Department had its own quasi-official fascisti, the American Protective League, the APL. They has Secret Service badges, and were charged with keeping an eye on neighbors, co-workers and friends, including reading neighbors mail and listening in on their phones with government approval. Membership exceeded a quarter million. Zinn, Howard, The Twentieth Century: A Peoples History, p.89-92

a.	In Rockford, Illinois, the army asked the APL to extract confessions from 21 black soldiers charged with assaulting white women. Barry, The Great Influenza, p. 124.
b.	The APL Vigilante Patrol cracked down on seditious street oratory, and as head crackers against slackers who avoided conscription.

6. The Red Scare intensified in June 1919, when Attorney General Palmer, who claimed to have a list of 60,000 subversives, engaged in a series of warrantless raids aimed at capturing the mostly immigrant red radicals, some of whom were jailed or shipped back to Russia. With no reproach from Wilson, Palmer trampled on civil liberties and harassed the innocent as well as the likely guilty.
1919: Betrayal and the Birth of Modern Liberalism by Fred Siegel, City Journal 22 November 2009


----------



## JakeStarkey

Finally, we are seeing the right post some stuff we can work with.

Her own posted material fails her litmus test is what I find quite interesting.

But this is, finally, a start for the far right here.  Congratulations sincerely.


----------



## Cecilie1200

CrusaderFrank said:


> At some point don't people begin to ask themselves, Political Chic has thrown down this gauntlet at least a dozen times:
> 
> Again, the easily-led brigade fails to ascertain truth, and bathes in a warm bath of liberal mythology
> 
> The litmus test is fairly simpleand you being equally so, it should appeal to you:
> If Senator Joseph McCarthy had such a deleterious effect, and ruined so many lives, it should be effortless for you to name a half dozen or so whose lives were so ruined.
> 
> 1. If you cannot do so, it clearly casts the lie to your premise.
> 2. Ruin does not refer to being insulted. You must show actual damages, i.e. imprisoned and later found innocent of the charges or never working again
> 
> You can run, but you can't hide.
> *
> AND NOT ONE PERSON HAS VENTURED TO SITE A SINGLE NAME!*



Except for some uncle that no one knows or has ever heard of, and for whom there's no way of double-checking.  Convenient.


----------



## Cecilie1200

JakeStarkey said:


> Finally, we are seeing the right post some stuff we can work with.
> 
> Her own posted material fails her litmus test is what I find quite interesting.
> 
> But this is, finally, a start for the far right here.  Congratulations sincerely.



What, you found "So name some people he ruined" too fucking complicated to work with?  You want to sit there and crow about PC "failing her litmus test", how about first you grow a pair and step up to the fucking plate, Junior?

My God, what an ignorant poltroon.


----------



## Gadawg73

CrusaderFrank said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What Coulter failed to reveal in her "tell all" book is that there were already undercover investigations into most of the named communists in the state department long before McCarthy said there were there. In fact, the McCarthy blabber mouth hearings derailed most of those undercover investigations that took years to develop.
> Even a blind squirrel can find a nut once in a blue moon.
> What you folks fail to realize is that you seek to turn spies for INFORMATION. Ideology has no power and the knowledge of someone's ideology has no useful purpose in espionage. INFORMATION is power and no one cares what ideology you are as long as the information is credible and valuable.
> The fact that McCarthy pointed out a handfull of already known communist spies out of the thousands he incorrectly labeled is proof that his methods are wrong.
> In America you SHOULD NEVER have toprove yourself innocent. McCarthy labeled thousands as communists without any proof and each and every one of themhad to go prove their innocense.
> That is UnAmerican. The accused never has to prove anything under our system of justice. It is always the burden of the accuser to prove their case BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT. Out of the thousands McCarthy accused how many were convicted of anything. Case closed.
> In America, YOU ARE ALWAYS PRESUMED INNOCENT.
> And McCarthy violated that sacred foundation of American society. It was not tolerated then, he was exposed as a fraud for doing so and that foundation continues today. If you do not like that then find another country to live in.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're flailing wildly beating yourself and whatever points you thought you had nearly to death.
> 
> So now you admit that McCarthy did name genuine Communist spies, that shows some improvement, but then you add that he name "Thousands" and the only person who agrees with you might be Jake Starkey.
> 
> Then, you seem to think that McCarthy was judge and jury and he had some "Burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt" which is just lunacy.  He was a US Senator.  Got it? A US Senator.
> 
> McCarthy never "violated that sacred foundation of American society", instead he violated that sacred foundation of Marxist infiltration of American society: he named Communist spies and he was correct.
Click to expand...


Leaked information from government covert investigations to McCarthy.
Usually, when you leak that information they shoot you Frank.
Marxist infiltration of American society? LOL


----------



## PoliticalChic

Gadawg73 said:


> As usual, chic, you side step and run fromthe issues likea monkey on fire.
> Many thousands were accused but you go by your Wikipedia lists because of laziness and a complete lack of investigative skills. I have had my detective agency license since 1982.
> Who was prosecuted out of all the accused? Maybe 120?
> How come? Because there was NO evidence to prosecute
> You know that the entire thing was a circus resulting in nothing at all with most prosecutions.
> I do not go by your so called litmus test.
> I go by the US Constitution and the law.
> If you do not know that thousands were looked into and notes taken by his committe and staff during the Red Scare days then you are uninformed.
> I go by the rules of law and criminal procedure, something you know nothing about and have no respect for. I have worked investigating criminal cases for trial for 30 years.
> You would do well to do read about Edward R. Murrow, a friend of my just deceased father and of our family since the 1930s. Murrow was from North Carolina and grew up near where Dad went to college at Guilford College 1938-1942.
> Was Murrow a liberal? Read about him and his investigation of McCArthy AT THE TIME.
> The likes of you advocated the practice of "it is okay to go soft on the Constituion in an effort to fight communism"
> You are too young,naiveand gulluible to know any better chic but I will again attempt to educate you up from your ignorance. Ever heard of the cases prosecuted under the Smith Act? 10 defendants were convicted in 1949 under the act. And ALL of the defense attorneys were also sent to jail for defending communists! That is how crazy things were back then but you would not know that as you are an ideologue and have not experienced the real world. And in 1950 Beth Gurley, the head of the ACLU fighting these police state laws, was indicted and 20 or so others were convicted. All of the cases were overturned because of fabricated testimony that was coerced. The prosecution witnesses all admitted they lied in court so they all were set free. All of the Acts that these Congresses passed during the Red Scare were all later deemed unConstitutional in the 1960s with 9-0 decisions.
> But you would not know any of those facts because youare blind to reality and did not grow up in it.
> You live as an ideologue. Read Murrow for the facts of the day and he was NO liberal.
> But you won't do it because your ideology will not allow an unbiased, objective research AND INVESTIGATION of
> ANYTHING.



My, oh, my...you ARE giving dullards and dim-wits a bad name!

"Many thousands were accused but you go by your Wikipedia lists because of laziness and a complete lack of investigative skills. I have had my detective agency license since 1982.
Who was prosecuted out of all the accused? Maybe 120?
How come? Because there was NO evidence to prosecute
You know that the entire thing was a circus resulting in nothing at all with prosecutions.
I do not go by your so called litmus test. "

So, I glean from this post:
1. You cannot name any innocent folks who were injured by the great American hero, Senator Joseph McCarthy.

2.Your new fall-back position is that there were 'thousands' named, but you can't racall any, and none had any damages.

3. You use the term 'prosecuted,' clearly with no understanding of the term, as 'blacklisted' seems not to have worked out for you. If onl the Senator had been a prosecutor, not merely an investigator!

a. Even after the scandal of the Rosenberg cell emerging from the Army, the Army was still employing security risks. Beginning in early 1953, of a whole year, Army intelligence issued urgent warnings about Captain Irving Peress, reports stating that Peress was an active member of the Communist Party, that he was very disloyal and untrustworthy. Arthur Herman, Joseph McCarty: Reexamining the Life and Legacy of Americas Most Hated Senator, p. 248
  He was thought to be organizing a Communist cell on the Army base. His company commander wanted him dismissed on grounds of national security.  David Oshinsky, 'A Conspiracy So Immense', p. 366-367  Instead the Army promoted him to Major!* McCarty exposed the Armys stupidity in dealing with Peress. The result?  Honorable discharge. * And McCarty was attacked by Vermont Republican Senator Flanders, stating the Peress was merely a pink dentist in New Jersey.


Whittaker Chambers wrote in his book WITNESS that liberals are/were incapable of ever effectively fighting Communism because they did not see anything in Communism that was antithetical to their own beliefs. In short, Liberals are Communists and Communists are Liberals. I wonder if you are aware of the horrors of Communism; the tortures, the Gulags, the over 100 million persons done to death. 

Or even aware that the American Communists were taking their orders from Moscow and were attempting to impose the Red Utopia upon the United States. If successful, this would have led to millions tortured, enslaved, starved and murdered. It would have led to the death of human freedom for untold years. As the US was the bulwarked of freedom and Democracy, it's communization would have turned the entire world into an abatoir.

On the bright side, you have now appreared as the 'Dark Horse' candidate for "Dumbest Poster on USMB,' narrowly edging rdean in the award he has won since the inception of said award...beware: deanie holds a grudge!


----------



## PoliticalChic

JakeStarkey said:


> Finally, we are seeing the right post some stuff we can work with.
> 
> Her own posted material fails her litmus test is what I find quite interesting.
> 
> But this is, finally, a start for the far right here.  Congratulations sincerely.



Elucidate?


----------



## HUGGY

Cecilie1200 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> The vile misuse of the public platform did not find anything the FBI was not already aware of.  What it did was ruin lives. What he did was a full frontal assauly on the Constitution.   Sorry Frankie..my experience having lived through the period is rellevant.  I don't give a rats ass if this thread lasts for ten thousand posts.  I will not back down on this.  I will never allow a McCarthy revision to go unchallenged.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some people like Solomon Adler and Cedric Belfrage needed to have their lives ruined.
> 
> I've mentioned Solomon Adler at least 6 times, have you looked him up even once?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> McCarthy wasn't trying to turn up anything new, despite popular belief (and no one but the FBI at the time knew that the FBI knew this stuff.  They didn't tell anyone because they didn't want the Soviets to know they could decrypt their messages).  McCarthy's purpose in doing what he did was to find out why our government was giving security clearances to people who should never have gotten them.  All the drivel about "it wasn't illegal to be a Communist" aside, it was the equivalent of our current government hiring known al Qaeda sympathizers to work at the State Department.
Click to expand...


You are a american communist therefore you are a spy or a terrorist?  CC how many times have I told you to go out and buy yourself a brain?  I already told you that the worst thing about the commies in this country was that they were stupid.  Soviet commies dangerous..USA commies stupid...  you should be able to relate to feeling sorry for stupid people.  Do you really think that everyone that wanted to live in a commune in our country was working secretly for Soviet Russia?  With that logic we should investigate evry Catholic because they are all obviously working for the POPE! The Pope supports Roman Catholics in Russia therefor he supports Russia and is also a spy! on...and on.. until with your circular logic...EVERYONE is a spy!!!!!!


----------



## uscitizen

This thread proves that Frank is I'd rather be dead than red Frank Burns.


----------



## Synthaholic

Watch for CrusaderFrank's upcoming thread "*Benedict Arnold Was Really A Misunderstood Patriot!*"


----------



## Gadawg73

The bimbos that we used to fight through outside the locker room years ago had more sense than chic and c.


----------



## Gadawg73

Synthaholic said:


> Watch for CrusaderFrank's upcoming thread "*Benedict Arnold Was Really A Misunderstood Patriot!*"



"George Wallace, States Rights Champion"


----------



## JakeStarkey

"Orville Faubus, A Governor for all Arkansans."


----------



## Cecilie1200

Synthaholic said:


> Watch for CrusaderFrank's upcoming thread "*Benedict Arnold Was Really A Misunderstood Patriot!*"



And . . . ?  I'm looking for the actual content of your post, where you say something useful and meaningful, and all I see is a lame attempt to draw a parallel between Benedict Arnold and Joe McCarthy, which failed miserably.

Perhaps, rather than just expecting people to laugh knowingly and assume they know WHY there's a parallel between the two, you could be so kind as to explain EXACTLY how they're the same, thereby demonstrating clearly for us your utter ignorance of American history so that we can mock you properly.

Otherwise, I'm just going to have to settle for sneering contemptuously and dismissing you as a wannabe.  Never satisfying.


----------



## uscitizen

Benedict Arnold was a conservative wasn't he?  I though all those loyal to the crown were by definition conservatives and the rest were progressive liberals.


----------



## Political Junky

uscitizen said:


> Benedict Arnold was a conservative wasn't he?  I though all those loyal to the crown were by definition conservatives and the rest were progressive liberals.


You're right.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Ceclie, all you have to know is that Joe was pulled down by his own party and politically destroyed.


----------



## jillian

Cecilie1200 said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Watch for CrusaderFrank's upcoming thread "*Benedict Arnold Was Really A Misunderstood Patriot!*"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And . . . ?  I'm looking for the actual content of your post, where you say something useful and meaningful, and all I see is a lame attempt to draw a parallel between Benedict Arnold and Joe McCarthy, which failed miserably.
> 
> Perhaps, rather than just expecting people to laugh knowingly and assume they know WHY there's a parallel between the two, you could be so kind as to explain EXACTLY how they're the same, thereby demonstrating clearly for us your utter ignorance of American history so that we can mock you properly.
> 
> Otherwise, I'm just going to have to settle for sneering contemptuously and dismissing you as a wannabe.  Never satisfying.
Click to expand...


perhaps you should stop being an apologist for one of the darkest characters in our history.

either way, we will continue to mock *you* properly.


----------



## LuckyDan

I wonder of gays feel left out at these "McCarthy was E-ville" parties, since they can't call him a homophobe.






Gay commies? What say vous?


----------



## jillian

boy... it must be nice coming up with all these different ways to revise history.


----------



## LuckyDan

jillian said:


> boy... it must be nice coming up with all these different ways to revise history.


 
Cohn was a ladies man, was he?


----------



## jillian

LuckyDan said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> boy... it must be nice coming up with all these different ways to revise history.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cohn was a ladies man, was he?
Click to expand...


i suppose his daddy wished he was.


----------



## LuckyDan

jillian said:


> LuckyDan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> boy... it must be nice coming up with all these different ways to revise history.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cohn was a ladies man, was he?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> i suppose his daddy wished he was.
Click to expand...

 
Well I dunno about his daddy, but if I'd have raised him, I would have been _damned_ proud.


----------



## Synthaholic

Cecilie1200 said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Watch for CrusaderFrank's upcoming thread "*Benedict Arnold Was Really A Misunderstood Patriot!*"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And . . . ?  I'm looking for the actual content of your post, where you say something useful and meaningful
Click to expand...


The *content* of my post is to point out that CrusaderFrank is trying to rehabilitate the image of a man who was a traitor to the American ideals this country is founded upon.   He obviously is more interested in celebrating those who wish to destroy America rather than admit that everything that has made America better has come from progressive leadership.

I'm hoping that my post is *useful* for people who were not familiar with McCarthy, or familiar with CrusaderFrank's hatred of 'innocent until proven guilty', due process, and everything else that makes America great.

The truth is always *meaningful*.



> and all I see is a lame attempt to draw a parallel between Benedict Arnold and Joe McCarthy, which failed miserably.



The parallel is in them both being unAmerican.  I'm not surprised that you can't see it.


----------



## Synthaholic

LuckyDan said:


> I wonder of gays feel left out at these "McCarthy was E-ville" parties, since they can't call him a homophobe.
> 
> Gay commies? What say vous?



There's no evidence that McCarthy knew Cohn was homosexual.


----------



## LuckyDan

Synthaholic said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Watch for CrusaderFrank's upcoming thread "*Benedict Arnold Was Really A Misunderstood Patriot!*"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And . . . ? I'm looking for the actual content of your post, where you say something useful and meaningful
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The *content* of my post is to point out that CrusaderFrank is trying to rehabilitate the image of a man who was a traitor to the American ideals this country is founded upon. He obviously is more interested in celebrating those who wish to destroy America rather than admit that everything that has made America better has come from progressive leadership.
> 
> I'm hoping that my post is *useful* for people who were not familiar with McCarthy, or familiar with CrusaderFrank's hatred of 'innocent until proven guilty', due process, and everything else that makes America great.
> 
> The truth is always *meaningful*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and all I see is a lame attempt to draw a parallel between Benedict Arnold and Joe McCarthy, which failed miserably.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The parallel is in them both being unAmerican. I'm not surprised that you can't see it.
Click to expand...

 
Twisted logic, Synthaholic. Twisted as a pretzel from hell.

Your post is as useful as 20-grit sandpaper in a public toilet.

You are using the words _conservative_ and_ progressive_ as adjectives, while misapplying their political meanings in 20th Century American politics, where they are meant to be read as nouns, denoting particular political meanings.

I hope you don't truly know the difference, and that you are simply college educated. For that I can forgive you. _Pity _you, but forgive you.

Cuz that's about the dumbest thing I've read on these boards. 

Best.


----------



## LuckyDan

Synthaholic said:


> LuckyDan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder of gays feel left out at these "McCarthy was E-ville" parties, since they can't call him a homophobe.
> 
> Gay commies? What say vous?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There's no evidence that McCarthy knew Cohn was homosexual.
Click to expand...

 
You're nuckin' futs, ain'tcha?


----------



## Political Junky

Cohn and J. Edgar Hoover persecuted Gays, and they themselves were Gay. Cohn died of AIDS.
Not all homophobes are Straight.


----------



## LuckyDan

Political Junky said:


> Cohn and J. Edgar Hoover persecuted Gays, and they themselves were Gay. Cohn died of AIDS.
> Not all homophobes are Straight.


 
I thought Hoover was a tranny, but not a full-blown homo.

In what way did they persecute homosexuals?


----------



## Mr. Shaman

CrusaderFrank said:


> I'm only about 35 pages into M. Stanton Evans "Blacklisted by History" and I am livid at the utter gall and tremendous scope of the Leftist outright lies.
> 
> Did you know that many of the original documents that McCarthy based his campaign on are missing?
> 
> As recently as March 1993 someone, we don't know who went into the US National Archives and took the Klaus Memo, a 1946 memo by a State Department official Samuel Klaus implicating Alger Hiss and many others as Communist spies?


That's all very amusing  *but*.....that lil' old *Liberal/Progressive* (*Rod Serling*) *exposed* the *McCarthy/lynch-mob/Teabagger-herd*, for what they *WERE*, clear back in *1960*.....

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3j6jebeyfS0]YouTube - Twilight Zone - The Monsters are Due on Maple Street - Part 1[/ame]
*
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLEx1hWLRCs&feature=related]YouTube - Twilight Zone - The Monsters are Due on Maple Street - Part 2[/ame]
*
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7G1RAvCZgY&feature=related]YouTube - Twilight Zone - The Monsters are Due on Maple Street - Part 3[/ame]


*".....one, to the other." - Dick Armey* (*?*)


*Check & MATE!!!!!*








(Ya' might want to save *"Blacklisted by History"* as _kindling_ for the *Teabaggers'* _funeral-pyre_.)​


----------



## CrusaderFrank

So how are you Progressives making out on the list of lives McCarthy ruined?

Joe McCarthy gets another feather in his wings every time a Progressives lies or insults instead of answering.

Also, has anyone on the Left bothered to Google Solomon Adler even one time? Would it help if I told you this McCarthy identified Soviet asset's code name was "Sax" or "Sachs" in the Venona Cables?

That help any?


----------



## HUGGY

Ya..ya..and Hitler was just a miss understood socialist!  Give it up Frankie.  The only group that thought McCarthy was a hero was the John Birch Society.  Why don't YOU do a little research on what THEY stood for?  You may stimulate curiosity with those that were not alive at the time but for myself and any decent republican that stripped that vile demagogue of his podium ... there is no need to apologize.  Digging up the bones of that rabid dog to examine them for what purpose exactly?  Hero?  Your agenda in this matter is highly suspect.


----------



## HUGGY

Next up in Krazy Krusty Franks dance card....  Did Ted Bundy..another troubled republican.. love his mother?


----------



## HUGGY

And another thing while I am at it....

I'm totally sick and tired of these bat shit crazy christian fundimentalists calling everyone that doesn't subscribe to their comic book fantasy of invisible beings a "liberal".

*I voted for Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Reagan, Bush, Bush, Clinton(Dole was an idiot), Bush, Kerrry(Bush and Cheney allowed 9/11, decieved us into war..commited treason)Obama(McCain/Palin..please).*

I have been a loyal republican for almost all of my adult life and only when forced to have chosen the alternative.  

If the republican party would kick the crazy fundimentalists off the bus and stop offering up irresponsible candidates it would make life a lot easier being a republican.

That is all.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

HUGGY said:


> Ya..ya..and Hitler was just a miss understood socialist!  Give it up Frankie.  The only group that thought McCarthy was a hero was the John Birch Society.  Why don't YOU do a little research on what THEY stood for?  You may stimulate curiosity with those that were not alive at the time but for myself and any decent republican that stripped that vile demagogue of his podium ... there is no need to apologize.  Digging up the bones of that rabid dog to examine them for what purpose exactly?  Hero?  Your agenda in this matter is highly suspect.




My only "Agenda" is the outright rejection and repudiation of all the Progressive lies I've digested these past decades: the "Greatness" of FDR, the "Evil" Of McCarthy, the Civil Rights Pioneering of LBJ, and so on and so on.

Have you looked up Solomon Adler who the Venona Cables confirm was a wholly owned subsidiary of the USSR?


----------



## Synthaholic

CrusaderFrank said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ya..ya..and Hitler was just a miss understood socialist!  Give it up Frankie.  The only group that thought McCarthy was a hero was the John Birch Society.  Why don't YOU do a little research on what THEY stood for?  You may stimulate curiosity with those that were not alive at the time but for myself and any decent republican that stripped that vile demagogue of his podium ... there is no need to apologize.  Digging up the bones of that rabid dog to examine them for what purpose exactly?  Hero?  Your agenda in this matter is highly suspect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My only "Agenda" is the outright rejection and repudiation of all the Progressive lies I've digested these past decades: the "Greatness" of FDR, the "Evil" Of McCarthy, the Civil Rights Pioneering of LBJ, and so on and so on.
> 
> *Have you looked up Solomon Adler who the Venona Cables confirm was a wholly owned subsidiary of the USSR?*
Click to expand...


Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then.  And Adler was British.


----------



## HUGGY

CrusaderFrank said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ya..ya..and Hitler was just a miss understood socialist!  Give it up Frankie.  The only group that thought McCarthy was a hero was the John Birch Society.  Why don't YOU do a little research on what THEY stood for?  You may stimulate curiosity with those that were not alive at the time but for myself and any decent republican that stripped that vile demagogue of his podium ... there is no need to apologize.  Digging up the bones of that rabid dog to examine them for what purpose exactly?  Hero?  Your agenda in this matter is highly suspect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My only "Agenda" is the outright rejection and repudiation of all the Progressive lies I've digested these past decades: the "Greatness" of FDR, the "Evil" Of McCarthy, the Civil Rights Pioneering of LBJ, and so on and so on.
> 
> *Have you looked up Solomon Adler who the Venona Cables confirm was a wholly owned subsidiary of the USSR?*
Click to expand...


No I haven't and I am not going to.  I am already familiar with what McCarthy did.  I do not need to run goose chases over finished business.  There are much more worthy of things to do with my time.  I do not care to support any agenda that includes resurrecting McCarthy as a hero.  There were worse people in our countries history but he did a very vile thing and deserved histories verdict.  

It is a sad commentary on the state of the republican party today that people like yourself feel a need to polish up the reputations of some of our most despicable members.


----------



## Gadawg73

LuckyDan said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> 
> boy... it must be nice coming up with all these different ways to revise history.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cohn was a ladies man, was he?
Click to expand...


I could care less if Cohn, you, Mcarthy or anyone was/is gay.
But Roy Cohn was a crook and a fraud just like McCarthy. 
His entire life.


----------



## Gadawg73

Political Junky said:


> Cohn and J. Edgar Hoover persecuted Gays, and they themselves were Gay. Cohn died of AIDS.
> Not all homophobes are Straight.



Exactly, and all three were gay. Hoover lived with his partner his entire life.


----------



## Gadawg73

CrusaderFrank said:


> So how are you Progressives making out on the list of lives McCarthy ruined?
> 
> Joe McCarthy gets another feather in his wings every time a Progressives lies or insults instead of answering.
> 
> Also, has anyone on the Left bothered to Google Solomon Adler even one time? Would it help if I told you this McCarthy identified Soviet asset's code name was "Sax" or "Sachs" in the Venona Cables?
> 
> That help any?



So if Frank was a Senator leading an investigative committee naming terrorists and making a list he would not try to do everything he could to "ruin" them.

That is your argument Frank. You have made that claimoverand over and over and over and over again. Why? Because chic said it and you are a parroter.
Frank would be running a kindler and gentler investigation just like McCarthy did.
Frank, chic and ceile would have you believe Tail Gunner Joe was running a polite witch hunt and went out of their way not to upset the lives in any way of those they were persecuting.
Frank, your argument makes no sense and you know it. If you do not know that the witch hunt McCarthy was on at the time had EVERY INTENT to hurt and ruin as badasthey could EVERY person they could then you are either too naive to know any better or just plain stupid.
Give it up. Your argument has lost and I believe you now know it.


----------



## JakeStarkey

They know they have lost the discussion a long time ago.  But they will engage in the stubbornness of immorality and deny it.


----------



## Gadawg73

JakeStarkey said:


> They know they have lost the discussion a long time ago.  But they will engage in the stubbornness of immorality and deny it.



They keep claiming that McCarthy had no intent to ruin the very people he was labeling as communist spies during the Red Scare.


----------



## PoliticalChic

HUGGY said:


> And another thing while I am at it....
> 
> I'm totally sick and tired of these bat shit crazy christian fundimentalists calling everyone that doesn't subscribe to their comic book fantasy of invisible beings a "liberal".
> 
> *I voted for Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Reagan, Bush, Bush, Clinton(Dole was an idiot), Bush, Kerrry(Bush and Cheney allowed 9/11, decieved us into war..commited treason)Obama(McCain/Palin..please).*
> 
> I have been a loyal republican for almost all of my adult life and only when forced to have chosen the alternative.
> 
> If the republican party would kick the crazy fundimentalists off the bus and stop offering up irresponsible candidates it would make life a lot easier being a republican.
> 
> That is all.



In my on-going campaign to keep you in a constant 'sick and tired' mode, I wonder if you have considered the 'state of grace' in which the United States has bathed?

Religion-haters (if the shoe fits...) may call it luck, but remember that FDR had three Vice-Presidents.

The second was a tool of Soviet Communism...and had Harry Truman not been selected as FDR's third VP, Uncle Joe would have recieved his greatest gift upon the death of FDR.

 Henry Wallace, 1940-1944. Americas main enemy was Churchill and the British Empire. He insisted that peace would be assured if the United States guaranteed Stalin control of Eastern Europe. (Ronad Radosh, Progressively Worse, The New Republic, June 12, 2000) 

 When Stalin seized Czechoslovakia, Wallace sided with Stalin. When Stalin blockaded Berlin, Wallace opposed the Berlin Airlift. After visiting a Soviet slave camp, Wallace enthusiastically  described it a s a combination TVA and Hudson Bay Company. Ibid, 

 In 1948, at the apex of Moscow-directed subversion of US politics, FDRs VP Henry Wallace, former Secy of Agriculture, to form the Communist-dominated and Soviet-backed Progressive Party. Of course, Wallaces Progressives allowed not even the most peripheral criticism of Soviet aggression.(John Patrick Diggins, Good Intentions, The National Interest, Fall, 2000)

 The progressives received one million votes. The Communist Party USA did not field a presidential candidate, and instead endorsed Wallace for President. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Party_(United_States,_1948)

 Wallace met personally with KGB agents. (Allen Weinstein and Alexander Vassiliev, Haunted Woods, p. 119)


I suggest a deeper understanding of the times will cure you of both your sickness and your misunderstanding of American hero, Senator Joseph McCarthy.
Unless it is knowledge itself that sickens you...

Your tiredness? Take a nap.


----------



## HUGGY

I have an idea for ya Frankie..  Why don't you work on buffing up the public perception of that smarmy little weasle bitch Mitch McConnel. John the Boner could use a touch up also.




At least those two willfully ignorant christian fundimentalist fuckwits have some relevency in todays political landscape.


----------



## PoliticalChic

Gadawg73 said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> They know they have lost the discussion a long time ago.  But they will engage in the stubbornness of immorality and deny it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They keep claiming that McCarthy had no intent to ruin the very people he was labeling as communist spies during the Red Scare.
Click to expand...


Name the 'ruined people,' simpleton.


----------



## PoliticalChic

LuckyDan said:


> Political Junky said:
> 
> 
> 
> Cohn and J. Edgar Hoover persecuted Gays, and they themselves were Gay. Cohn died of AIDS.
> Not all homophobes are Straight.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I thought Hoover was a tranny, but not a full-blown homo.
> 
> In what way did they persecute homosexuals?
Click to expand...


"As fun as it is to imagine the former chief of the Federal Bureau of Investigation in drag, most historians believe this is just an urban legend."
Was J. Edgar Hoover really a transvestite?


----------



## JakeStarkey

PoliticalChic said:


> LuckyDan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Political Junky said:
> 
> 
> 
> Cohn and J. Edgar Hoover persecuted Gays, and they themselves were Gay. Cohn died of AIDS.
> Not all homophobes are Straight.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I thought Hoover was a tranny, but not a full-blown homo.
> 
> In what way did they persecute homosexuals?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "As fun as it is to imagine the former chief of the Federal Bureau of Investigation in drag, most historians believe this is just an urban legend."
> Was J. Edgar Hoover really a transvestite?
Click to expand...


Quite the opposite.


----------



## JakeStarkey

PoliticalChic said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> They know they have lost the discussion a long time ago.  But they will engage in the stubbornness of immorality and deny it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They keep claiming that McCarthy had no intent to ruin the very people he was labeling as communist spies during the Red Scare.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Name the 'ruined people,' simpleton.
Click to expand...


Answered repeatedly.


----------



## Synthaholic

PoliticalChic said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> They know they have lost the discussion a long time ago.  But they will engage in the stubbornness of immorality and deny it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They keep claiming that McCarthy had no intent to ruin the very people he was labeling as communist spies during the Red Scare.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Name the 'ruined people,' simpleton.
Click to expand...

Zero Mostel, for one.


----------



## Gadawg73

Wallace was a naive man politically but was the best Secretary of Agriculture this country ever had.
When you folks eat lunch today thank him.
He was no communist. Politically gullible yes but he was the first white politician to call publicly for equal rights in voting, jobs and education for blacks.
If he was communist then 1.2 million farmers of his era also were as he received that farm bloc vote for President.
Enjoy your sandwich.


----------



## Gadawg73

PoliticalChic said:


> LuckyDan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Political Junky said:
> 
> 
> 
> Cohn and J. Edgar Hoover persecuted Gays, and they themselves were Gay. Cohn died of AIDS.
> Not all homophobes are Straight.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I thought Hoover was a tranny, but not a full-blown homo.
> 
> In what way did they persecute homosexuals?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "As fun as it is to imagine the former chief of the Federal Bureau of Investigation in drag, most historians believe this is just an urban legend."
> Was J. Edgar Hoover really a transvestite?
Click to expand...


He was gay but not a tranvestite.
That is just an urban legend.
Just like Obama is Muslim and Tail Gunner Joe McCarthy was a hero.


----------



## JakeStarkey

PC's pathetic charade continues.  The gift of Columbia College Missouri keeps on giving.  PC will not tell you the fact that Wallace was a fiscal conservative who turned more liberal over the years.  Wallace never supported communism but did oppose unchecked rapacious capitalism.

Ronald Radosh is simply a goon for the far reactionary right.  His work is not validated by objective scholarship or scholars, thus he can be easily dismissed.  Wallace did not oppose the Berlin Airlift, Wallace condemned the slave labor system of the USSR.  The 1948 Progressive party platform called for civil rights for minorities, breakup of monopolistic cartels, and elimination of Taft-Hartley.  Wallce supported the UN and the US response to the Korean invasion by North Korea.

I am so glad that PC posts here so that all of you can realize just how much destruction a homer of the far reactionary right wants to do to America, and just how easy it is to refute her nonsense.

Radosh?  My ass.


----------



## Wry Catcher

Hypocrisy Watch:  How does someone support Jedeo-Christian values and bears false witness against others?
Simply, they are HYPOCRITES and hold this truth as their guiding value, "the end justifies the means".


----------



## JakeStarkey

Synthaholic said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> They keep claiming that McCarthy had no intent to ruin the very people he was labeling as communist spies during the Red Scare.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Name the 'ruined people,' simpleton.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Zero Mostel, for one.
Click to expand...


Owen Lattimore, for another.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Political Chic is not a follower of the Judeo-Christian ethic, Wry Catcher.  She is the perfect example of situational and relativistic morality.  She would have made a wonderful communist or nazi.


----------



## Wry Catcher

JakeStarkey said:


> Political Chic is not a follower of the Judeo-Christian ethic, Wry Catcher.  She is the perfect example of situational and relativistic morality.  She would have made a wonderful communist or nazi.



In other words (mine) she and CrusaderFrank are FRINGERS.


----------



## PoliticalChic

Gadawg73 said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LuckyDan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I thought Hoover was a tranny, but not a full-blown homo.
> 
> In what way did they persecute homosexuals?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "As fun as it is to imagine the former chief of the Federal Bureau of Investigation in drag, most historians believe this is just an urban legend."
> Was J. Edgar Hoover really a transvestite?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> He was gay but not a tranvestite.
> That is just an urban legend.
> Just like Obama is Muslim and Tail Gunner Joe McCarthy was a hero.
Click to expand...


And, of course, there is no evidence of that, homosexuality, as well.

Liberals simply use the charge to bash those who they don't agree with.
From columnist Ann Coulter:

"Liberals claim to love gays, but their default comeback to a conservative they disagree with is to call him gay

We need to get a rule book from the Democrats [on gays]:
a.	Boy Scouts: As gay as you want to be
b.	Priests: No gays!
c.	Democratic politicians: Proud gay Americans.
d.	Republican politicians: Presumed guilty.
e.	White House press corps: No gays, unless they hate Bush.
f.	Active-duty U.S. military: As gay as possible.
g.	Men who date Liza Minnelli: Do I have to draw you a picture, Miss Thing?"

I think letter d covers your charge.


----------



## Wry Catcher

PoliticalChic said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> "As fun as it is to imagine the former chief of the Federal Bureau of Investigation in drag, most historians believe this is just an urban legend."
> Was J. Edgar Hoover really a transvestite?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He was gay but not a tranvestite.
> That is just an urban legend.
> Just like Obama is Muslim and Tail Gunner Joe McCarthy was a hero.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And, of course, there is no evidence of that, homosexuality, as well.
> 
> Liberals simply use the charge to bash those who they don't agree with.
> From columnist Ann Coulter:
> 
> "Liberals claim to love gays, but their default comeback to a conservative they disagree with is to call him gay
> 
> We need to get a rule book from the Democrats [on gays]:
> a.	Boy Scouts: As gay as you want to be
> b.	Priests: No gays!
> c.	Democratic politicians: Proud gay Americans.
> d.	Republican politicians: Presumed guilty.
> e.	White House press corps: No gays, unless they hate Bush.
> f.	Active-duty U.S. military: As gay as possible.
> g.	Men who date Liza Minnelli: Do I have to draw you a picture, Miss Thing?"
> 
> I think letter d covers your charge.
Click to expand...


*I'm sure the letter "R" covers you, "R" as in *R*eactionary.


----------



## PoliticalChic

Gadawg73 said:


> Wallace was a naive man politically but was the best Secretary of Agriculture this country ever had.
> When you folks eat lunch today thank him.
> He was no communist. Politically gullible yes but he was the first white politician to call publicly for equal rights in voting, jobs and education for blacks.
> If he was communist then 1.2 million farmers of his era also were as he received that farm bloc vote for President.
> Enjoy your sandwich.



Dullard73:

What makes you think your posts have any moment, as you continue to ignore counter evidence, and refutations?

You remain in the lowest category of posters...with you-know-who.


----------



## PoliticalChic

JakeStarkey said:


> PC's pathetic charade continues.  The gift of Columbia College Missouri keeps on giving.  PC will not tell you the fact that Wallace was a fiscal conservative who turned more liberal over the years.  Wallace never supported communism but did oppose unchecked rapacious capitalism.
> 
> Ronald Radosh is simply a goon for the far reactionary right.  His work is not validated by objective scholarship or scholars, thus he can be easily dismissed.  Wallace did not oppose the Berlin Airlift, Wallace condemned the slave labor system of the USSR.  The 1948 Progressive party platform called for civil rights for minorities, breakup of monopolistic cartels, and elimination of Taft-Hartley.  Wallce supported the UN and the US response to the Korean invasion by North Korea.
> 
> I am so glad that PC posts here so that all of you can realize just how much destruction a homer of the far reactionary right wants to do to America, and just how easy it is to refute her nonsense.
> 
> Radosh?  My ass.



Its only fun when someone bites it big time: thats where you come in!

Remember the first thing you heard the paramedics say after your accidentthere must be another cerebral hemisphere around here somewhere Sorry they couldnt come up with it.

several prominent journalists, including H.L. Mencken and Dorothy Thompson, publicly charged that Wallace and the Progressives were under the covert control of Communists. Wallace was endorsed by the Communist Party (USA), and his subsequent refusal to publicly disavow any Communist support cost him the backing of many anti-Communist liberals and socialists (Henry A. Wallace - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

In his diary, Wallace, whose view of the future of America required Soviet-style Communism, wrote that FDR had assured him that he was a few years ahead of his time, but that his vision for American would inevitably come. (John Patrick Diggins, Good Intentions, The National Interest, Fall, 2000)

 This is the political landscape when Senator Joseph McCarthy decided to show America the danger that the Democratic Party found perfectly acceptable. One can only begin to understand how close we were to the precipice.

How blessed we were to have someone like Senator McCarthy on the scene, rather than dolts like yourself.


----------



## PoliticalChic

JakeStarkey said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Name the 'ruined people,' simpleton.
> 
> 
> 
> Zero Mostel, for one.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Owen Lattimore, for another.
Click to expand...


I don't know what I would do without a clown such as yourself to open the door!

Liberals name Owen Lattimore as a McCarthy victim.  In actuality, McCarthy did not name Lattimore, but only referred to a Mr. X. In his speeches, McCarthy referred to Lattimore as "Mr X... the top Russian spy... the key man in a Russian espionage ring." On 26th March, 1950, Pearson named Lattimore as McCarthy's Mr. X.   Drew Pearson : Biography

Lattimore was found to be a conscious, articulate instrument of the Soviet conspiracy by a unanimous Senate committee (William F. Buckley and Brent Bozell, McCarty and His Enemies, p. 274, quoting the Congressional Record) 

*As far as his life being ruined*, When Lattimore was indicted, Johns Hopkins put him on leave *with pay*. He continued to have use of his office and secretary but taught no classes. Owen Lattimore and the "Loss" of China "d0e11129" *He also lectured at Harvard.*

Senator Tydings  as with so many cases in his alleged "investigation" of McCarthy's charges  did a real whitewash on Lattimore, proclaiming, "There is nothing in that file to show that you were a Communist or ever had been a Communist, or that you were in any way connected with any espionage information or charges, so that the FBI file puts you completely, up to this moment, in the clear."

The ever-intrepid Evans (M. Stanton Evans, author of Blacklisted by History: The Untold Story of Senator Joe McCarthy and his fight Against America's Enemies,)  has produced a *memo from Lou Nichols of the FBI saying he couldn't understand what had come over Tydings * that the Maryland Democrat knew very well that Director Hoover had said that if he had been on the Loyalty Board, he would have questioned any attempt to clear Lattimore, and that he regarded the IPR icon as a security risk and would never have hired him at the Bureau.

	Lattimore had conferred (during the Hitler-Stalin pact) with the Soviet ambassador about Lattimore's upcoming assignment as President Roosevelt's adviser to Chiang-Kai-Shek  then trying to fend off the Communist revolution in his country.

	Credible testimony revealed "five episodes" wherein Lattimore  within the Politburo of the Communist Party  "participated as a full participant in the conspiracy."

	A former brigadier-general in the Soviet military intelligence testified to having been told that "Lattimore was one of our men."

	On page 218 of the McCarran committee's voluminous report of its year-long investigation, this bottom line: "[T]he subcommittee can come to no other conclusion but that* Lattimore was for some time beginning in the 1930s a conscious, articulate instrument of the Soviet conspiracy."*The documented truth about the McCarthy investigations

I'd tell you to man up and admit that you were wrong, but 
1. You're not capable of same.

 2. How would I be able to expound the way I love to if some fool didn't give me the opportunity?

Keep up the bad work!


----------



## PoliticalChic

Wry Catcher said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> He was gay but not a tranvestite.
> That is just an urban legend.
> Just like Obama is Muslim and Tail Gunner Joe McCarthy was a hero.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And, of course, there is no evidence of that, homosexuality, as well.
> 
> Liberals simply use the charge to bash those who they don't agree with.
> From columnist Ann Coulter:
> 
> "Liberals claim to love gays, but their default comeback to a conservative they disagree with is to call him gay
> 
> We need to get a rule book from the Democrats [on gays]:
> a.	Boy Scouts: As gay as you want to be
> b.	Priests: No gays!
> c.	Democratic politicians: Proud gay Americans.
> d.	Republican politicians: Presumed guilty.
> e.	White House press corps: No gays, unless they hate Bush.
> f.	Active-duty U.S. military: As gay as possible.
> g.	Men who date Liza Minnelli: Do I have to draw you a picture, Miss Thing?"
> 
> I think letter d covers your charge.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *I'm sure the letter "R" covers you, "R" as in *R*eactionary.
Click to expand...


Rye, all of your posts are empty attacks...

empty of insight, intelligent rebuttal, or interest.


Unlike mine, it is a waste to time reading them....


Step up to the plate: put a little effort in!


----------



## PoliticalChic

Synthaholic said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> They keep claiming that McCarthy had no intent to ruin the very people he was labeling as communist spies during the Red Scare.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Name the 'ruined people,' simpleton.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Zero Mostel, for one.
Click to expand...


Congrats!

You've earned a seat in the dumb row.

1. Mostel was called before HUAC....don't you think you should read the thread before posting?  Too much work?  Dumb row.
"The committee's anti-communist investigations are often confused with those of Senator Joseph McCarthy.." (especially by folks in the dumb row).
House Un-American Activities Committee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

2. Filmography for someone who was 'ruined' shouldn't list much work...

Watership Down (1978) (voice) .... Kehaar 
"The Electric Company" .... Spell Binder (650 episodes, 1972-1977) 
    - 130B (1977) TV episode (voice) .... Spell Binder
    - 129B (1977) TV episode (voice) .... Spell Binder
    - 128B (1977) TV episode (voice) .... Spell Binder
    - 127B (1977) TV episode (voice) .... Spell Binder
    - 126B (1977) TV episode (voice) .... Spell Binder
      (645 more)
The Little Drummer Boy Book II (1976) (TV) (voice) .... Brutus 
The Front (1976) .... Hecky Brown 
Mastermind (1976) .... Inspector Hoku Ichihara 
"The CBS Festival of Lively Arts for Young People" .... Gianni Schicchi (1 episode, 1975) 
    - Gianni Schicchi (1975) TV episode .... Gianni Schicchi
Journey Into Fear (1975) .... Kopelkin 
Fore Play (1975) .... President/Don Pasquale 
Once Upon a Scoundrel (1974) .... Carlos del Refugio 
Rhinoceros (1974) .... John 
... aka "Eugene Ionesco's Rhinoceros" - Australia (DVD box title), USA (poster title)
Marco (1973) .... Kublai Khan 
Saga of Sonora (1973) (TV) .... Heavy Harry 
Old Faithful (1973) (TV) .... Ranger Zeppel 
The Hot Rock (1972) .... Abe Greenberg 
The Angel Levine (1970) .... Morris Mishkin 


The Great Bank Robbery (1969) .... Rev. Pious Blue 
Great Catherine (1968) .... Potemkin 
The Producers (1968) (as Zero) .... Max Bialystock 
Ride of the Valkyrie (1967) 
Children of the Exodus (1967) .... Narrator 
A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum (1966) .... Pseudolus 
"Play of the Week" .... Estragon (2 episodes, 1959-1961) 
    - Waiting for Godot (1961) TV episode .... Estragon
    - World of Sholom Aleichem (1959) TV episode 


The World of Sholom Aleichem (1959) (TV) 
Zero Mostel (1959) (TV) .... Various Characters 
The Model and the Marriage Broker (1951) .... George Wixted 
The Guy Who Came Back (1951) .... Boots Mullins 
Mr. Belvedere Rings the Bell (1951) .... Emmett 
... aka "Mr. Belvedere Blows His Whistle" - USA (alternative title)
Sirocco (1951) .... Balukjiaan 
The Enforcer (1951) .... Big Babe Lazick 
Panic in the Streets (1950) .... Raymond Fitch 


"The Ford Theatre Hour" .... Banjo (1 episode, 1949) 
    - The Man Who Came to Dinner (1949) TV episode .... Banjo
Du Barry Was a Lady (1943) .... Rami - the Swami/Taliostra 

Zero Mostel

Welcome to the dumb row.

3. If this is ruined, and the best you can do, I declare my side the clear winner.

BTW, bettter draw a map so you can find your seat in the dumb row...


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Gadawg73 said:


> Wallace was a naive man politically but was the best Secretary of Agriculture this country ever had.
> When you folks eat lunch today thank him.
> He was no communist. Politically gullible yes but he was the first white politician to call publicly for equal rights in voting, jobs and education for blacks.
> If he was communist then 1.2 million farmers of his era also were as he received that farm bloc vote for President.
> Enjoy your sandwich.



What a dumb fuck.

Without Government, there'd be no food!

Dumb.

Fuck.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Gadawg73 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> So how are you Progressives making out on the list of lives McCarthy ruined?
> 
> Joe McCarthy gets another feather in his wings every time a Progressives lies or insults instead of answering.
> 
> Also, has anyone on the Left bothered to Google Solomon Adler even one time? Would it help if I told you this McCarthy identified Soviet asset's code name was "Sax" or "Sachs" in the Venona Cables?
> 
> That help any?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So if Frank was a Senator leading an investigative committee naming terrorists and making a list he would not try to do everything he could to "ruin" them.
> 
> That is your argument Frank. You have made that claimoverand over and over and over and over again. Why? Because chic said it and you are a parroter.
> Frank would be running a kindler and gentler investigation just like McCarthy did.
> Frank, chic and ceile would have you believe Tail Gunner Joe was running a polite witch hunt and went out of their way not to upset the lives in any way of those they were persecuting.
> Frank, your argument makes no sense and you know it. If you do not know that the witch hunt McCarthy was on at the time had EVERY INTENT to hurt and ruin as badasthey could EVERY person they could then you are either too naive to know any better or just plain stupid.
> Give it up. Your argument has lost and I believe you now know it.
Click to expand...


Kinder, gentler? I would have demanded the death penalty for Alger Hiss and Dexter White

Again, you have no facts, you're parroting stuff back that the Progressive school marms drilling into your little head years ago and no amount of new information validating McCarthy's central thesis, i.e. State was overrun with Communist spies, will change it.

You're just not an intelligent person


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Synthaholic said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ya..ya..and Hitler was just a miss understood socialist!  Give it up Frankie.  The only group that thought McCarthy was a hero was the John Birch Society.  Why don't YOU do a little research on what THEY stood for?  You may stimulate curiosity with those that were not alive at the time but for myself and any decent republican that stripped that vile demagogue of his podium ... there is no need to apologize.  Digging up the bones of that rabid dog to examine them for what purpose exactly?  Hero?  Your agenda in this matter is highly suspect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My only "Agenda" is the outright rejection and repudiation of all the Progressive lies I've digested these past decades: the "Greatness" of FDR, the "Evil" Of McCarthy, the Civil Rights Pioneering of LBJ, and so on and so on.
> 
> *Have you looked up Solomon Adler who the Venona Cables confirm was a wholly owned subsidiary of the USSR?*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then.  And Adler was British.
Click to expand...


If that's your only contribution you should stick with finding your nuts.

Try this one: Harold Glasser (Venona name: Ruble)


----------



## CrusaderFrank

HUGGY said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ya..ya..and Hitler was just a miss understood socialist!  Give it up Frankie.  The only group that thought McCarthy was a hero was the John Birch Society.  Why don't YOU do a little research on what THEY stood for?  You may stimulate curiosity with those that were not alive at the time but for myself and any decent republican that stripped that vile demagogue of his podium ... there is no need to apologize.  Digging up the bones of that rabid dog to examine them for what purpose exactly?  Hero?  Your agenda in this matter is highly suspect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My only "Agenda" is the outright rejection and repudiation of all the Progressive lies I've digested these past decades: the "Greatness" of FDR, the "Evil" Of McCarthy, the Civil Rights Pioneering of LBJ, and so on and so on.
> 
> *Have you looked up Solomon Adler who the Venona Cables confirm was a wholly owned subsidiary of the USSR?*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No I haven't and I am not going to.  I am already familiar with what McCarthy did.  I do not need to run goose chases over finished business.  There are much more worthy of things to do with my time.  I do not care to support any agenda that includes resurrecting McCarthy as a hero.  There were worse people in our countries history but he did a very vile thing and deserved histories verdict.
> 
> It is a sad commentary on the state of the republican party today that people like yourself feel a need to polish up the reputations of some of our most despicable members.
Click to expand...


I'm disappointed and I'm not kidding.

History and current event have totally vindicated McCarty's Central Thesis. I thought you might at least have a look at some of the facts as verified by the Soviets themselves.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

JakeStarkey said:


> They know they have lost the discussion a long time ago.  But they will engage in the stubbornness of immorality and deny it.



We lost the debate only because Progressives controlled the media and the schools.

Those days are over.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Gadawg73 said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> They know they have lost the discussion a long time ago.  But they will engage in the stubbornness of immorality and deny it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They keep claiming that McCarthy had no intent to ruin the very people he was labeling as communist spies during the Red Scare.
Click to expand...


McCarthy tried to raise awareness about genuine Communist spies at State, not mere Communists, but spies who reported to Moscow


----------



## CrusaderFrank

HUGGY said:


> I have an idea for ya Frankie..  Why don't you work on buffing up the public perception of that smarmy little weasle bitch Mitch McConnel. John the Boner could use a touch up also.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At least those two willfully ignorant christian fundimentalist fuckwits have some relevency in todays political landscape.



I have no interest in any of the aforementioned


----------



## Synthaholic

PoliticalChic said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> "As fun as it is to imagine the former chief of the Federal Bureau of Investigation in drag, most historians believe this is just an urban legend."
> Was J. Edgar Hoover really a transvestite?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He was gay but not a tranvestite.
> That is just an urban legend.
> Just like Obama is Muslim and Tail Gunner Joe McCarthy was a hero.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And, of course, there is no evidence of that, homosexuality, as well.
> 
> Liberals simply use the charge to bash those who they don't agree with.
> From columnist Ann Coulter:
> 
> "Liberals claim to love gays, but their default comeback to a conservative they disagree with is to call him gay
> 
> We need to get a rule book from the Democrats [on gays]:
> a.	Boy Scouts: As gay as you want to be
> b.	Priests: No gays!
> c.	Democratic politicians: Proud gay Americans.
> d.	Republican politicians: Presumed guilty.
> e.	White House press corps: No gays, unless they hate Bush.
> f.	Active-duty U.S. military: As gay as possible.
> g.	Men who date Liza Minnelli: Do I have to draw you a picture, Miss Thing?"
> 
> I think letter d covers your charge.
Click to expand...

There needs to be a Godwin Law for Ann Coulter:  *"anyone who needs to quote Ann Coulter to bolster their argument has already lost the argument."*


----------



## HUGGY

CrusaderFrank said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> My only "Agenda" is the outright rejection and repudiation of all the Progressive lies I've digested these past decades: the "Greatness" of FDR, the "Evil" Of McCarthy, the Civil Rights Pioneering of LBJ, and so on and so on.
> 
> *Have you looked up Solomon Adler who the Venona Cables confirm was a wholly owned subsidiary of the USSR?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No I haven't and I am not going to.  I am already familiar with what McCarthy did.  I do not need to run goose chases over finished business.  There are much more worthy of things to do with my time.  I do not care to support any agenda that includes resurrecting McCarthy as a hero.  There were worse people in our countries history but he did a very vile thing and deserved histories verdict.
> 
> It is a sad commentary on the state of the republican party today that people like yourself feel a need to polish up the reputations of some of our most despicable members.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm disappointed and I'm not kidding.
> 
> History and current event have totally vindicated McCarty's Central Thesis. I thought you might at least have a look at some of the facts as verified by the Soviets themselves.
Click to expand...


I put zero credibility in anything generated in the Soviet Union.  Just because I won't let the theory you foolishly propose and is put before my eyes does not mean I have to waste my time trying to verify your side of the arguement.  I am entirely satisfied of the results of the actions of my party back in the 50's.  Some things are not up for grabs in the desperate attempts to bolster your feeelings of self worth and pupose as a party hack.  I am willing to accept that some republicans are pieces of shit.  I feel the same way about scum like Carl Rove.  The republican party should retreat back to the time when integrity and good works was it's core foundations.  I reject "the ends justifies the means" as your guidance.


----------



## PoliticalChic

Synthaholic said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> He was gay but not a tranvestite.
> That is just an urban legend.
> Just like Obama is Muslim and Tail Gunner Joe McCarthy was a hero.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And, of course, there is no evidence of that, homosexuality, as well.
> 
> Liberals simply use the charge to bash those who they don't agree with.
> From columnist Ann Coulter:
> 
> "Liberals claim to love gays, but their default comeback to a conservative they disagree with is to call him gay
> 
> We need to get a rule book from the Democrats [on gays]:
> a.	Boy Scouts: As gay as you want to be
> b.	Priests: No gays!
> c.	Democratic politicians: Proud gay Americans.
> d.	Republican politicians: Presumed guilty.
> e.	White House press corps: No gays, unless they hate Bush.
> f.	Active-duty U.S. military: As gay as possible.
> g.	Men who date Liza Minnelli: Do I have to draw you a picture, Miss Thing?"
> 
> I think letter d covers your charge.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There needs to be a Godwin Law for Ann Coulter:  *"anyone who needs to quote Ann Coulter to bolster their argument has already lost the argument."*
Click to expand...


Your posts are insipid and tedious.
Speak to the point...

I guess you would if you could.

Go back to your seat in the you-know-which row...


----------



## HUGGY

CrusaderFrank said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have an idea for ya Frankie..  Why don't you work on buffing up the public perception of that smarmy little weasle bitch Mitch McConnel. John the Boner could use a touch up also.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At least those two willfully ignorant christian fundimentalist fuckwits have some relevency in todays political landscape.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have no interest in any of the aforementioned
Click to expand...


Oddly you have no interest in the quality of the leadership of the republican party of today but feel a need to resurect one of it's worst leaders.


----------



## Synthaholic

PoliticalChic said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Name the 'ruined people,' simpleton.
> 
> 
> 
> Zero Mostel, for one.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Congrats!
> 
> You've earned a seat in the dumb row.
> 
> 1. Mostel was called before HUAC....don't you think you should read the thread before posting?  Too much work?  Dumb row.
> "The committee's anti-communist investigations are often confused with those of Senator Joseph McCarthy.." (especially by folks in the dumb row).
> House Un-American Activities Committee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 2. Filmography for someone who was 'ruined' shouldn't list much work...
> 
> Watership Down (1978) (voice) .... Kehaar
> "The Electric Company" .... Spell Binder (650 episodes, 1972-1977)
> - 130B (1977) TV episode (voice) .... Spell Binder
> - 129B (1977) TV episode (voice) .... Spell Binder
> - 128B (1977) TV episode (voice) .... Spell Binder
> - 127B (1977) TV episode (voice) .... Spell Binder
> - 126B (1977) TV episode (voice) .... Spell Binder
> (645 more)
> The Little Drummer Boy Book II (1976) (TV) (voice) .... Brutus
> The Front (1976) .... Hecky Brown
> Mastermind (1976) .... Inspector Hoku Ichihara
> "The CBS Festival of Lively Arts for Young People" .... Gianni Schicchi (1 episode, 1975)
> - Gianni Schicchi (1975) TV episode .... Gianni Schicchi
> Journey Into Fear (1975) .... Kopelkin
> Fore Play (1975) .... President/Don Pasquale
> Once Upon a Scoundrel (1974) .... Carlos del Refugio
> Rhinoceros (1974) .... John
> ... aka "Eugene Ionesco's Rhinoceros" - Australia (DVD box title), USA (poster title)
> Marco (1973) .... Kublai Khan
> Saga of Sonora (1973) (TV) .... Heavy Harry
> Old Faithful (1973) (TV) .... Ranger Zeppel
> The Hot Rock (1972) .... Abe Greenberg
> The Angel Levine (1970) .... Morris Mishkin
> 
> 
> The Great Bank Robbery (1969) .... Rev. Pious Blue
> Great Catherine (1968) .... Potemkin
> The Producers (1968) (as Zero) .... Max Bialystock
> Ride of the Valkyrie (1967)
> Children of the Exodus (1967) .... Narrator
> A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum (1966) .... Pseudolus
> "Play of the Week" .... Estragon (2 episodes, 1959-1961)
> - Waiting for Godot (1961) TV episode .... Estragon
> - World of Sholom Aleichem (1959) TV episode
> 
> 
> The World of Sholom Aleichem (1959) (TV)
> Zero Mostel (1959) (TV) .... Various Characters
> The Model and the Marriage Broker (1951) .... George Wixted
> The Guy Who Came Back (1951) .... Boots Mullins
> Mr. Belvedere Rings the Bell (1951) .... Emmett
> ... aka "Mr. Belvedere Blows His Whistle" - USA (alternative title)
> Sirocco (1951) .... Balukjiaan
> The Enforcer (1951) .... Big Babe Lazick
> Panic in the Streets (1950) .... Raymond Fitch
> 
> 
> "The Ford Theatre Hour" .... Banjo (1 episode, 1949)
> - The Man Who Came to Dinner (1949) TV episode .... Banjo
> Du Barry Was a Lady (1943) .... Rami - the Swami/Taliostra
> 
> Zero Mostel
> 
> Welcome to the dumb row.
> 
> 3. If this is ruined, and the best you can do, I declare my side the clear winner.
> 
> BTW, bettter draw a map so you can find your seat in the dumb row...
Click to expand...


Show me all of his work between 1951 and 1959, dope.  That's when he was blacklisted.

*With growing popularity and many excellent reviews, Mostels career nonetheless came to a complete halt during the 1950s. Seeing many of his show business friends blacklisted and forced to name names of supposed Communists, it came as no surprise to him that he was named, too. On January 29, 1952, Martin Berkeley identified him to the House Committee on Un-American Activities (HUAC) as having been a member of the Communist party (Berkeley had named 160 people in allmore than any other witness). This was enough to stifle Mostel's career even before he was subpoenaed to appear before HUAC, which happened on August 14, 1955.*

He lost 8 years of work at a time when he was very popular.  By the 1960s and 1970s, America had realized what a fool McCarthy was, and he was able to work again.

It's way too easy to show you for the fool that you are.


----------



## PoliticalChic

CrusaderFrank said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> They know they have lost the discussion a long time ago.  But they will engage in the stubbornness of immorality and deny it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We lost the debate only because Progressives controlled the media and the schools.
> 
> Those days are over.
Click to expand...


Perfect!

Only because the public has been raised like mushrooms, kept in the dark and fed you-know-what, has the truth not been revealed.

Consider an earlier post re: the real villain as far as American democracy, Woodrow Wilson...yet the Left demonizes a man who shined the spotlight on a true threat to America.

Today we call them 'statists,' but Whittaker Chambers wrote in his book WITNESS that liberals are/were incapable of ever effectively fighting Communism because they did not see anything in Communism that was antithetical to their own beliefs. In short, Liberals are Communists and Communists are Liberals.

Let me add this, for 'holic: 
"Liberals titter about conservatives imagining Communists under every bed, while they hysterically claim to see racists under every bed.  If, in addition to murdering tens of millions of people, Stalin had maintained  Whites Only water fountains, America would now celebrate a national Joe McCarty Day."
Ann Coulter.


----------



## Synthaholic

CrusaderFrank said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> My only "Agenda" is the outright rejection and repudiation of all the Progressive lies I've digested these past decades: the "Greatness" of FDR, the "Evil" Of McCarthy, the Civil Rights Pioneering of LBJ, and so on and so on.
> 
> *Have you looked up Solomon Adler who the Venona Cables confirm was a wholly owned subsidiary of the USSR?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then.  And Adler was British.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If that's your only contribution you should stick with finding your nuts.
> 
> Try this one: Harold Glasser (Venona name: Ruble)
Click to expand...

Try another one?  Is that how it works?  You say something stupid, I show how stupid it is, so you want another try?

Sorry - fringers get one chance to show they are not unAmerican, bat-shit crazy traitor-lovers.

You failed.


----------



## Synthaholic

CrusaderFrank said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> They know they have lost the discussion a long time ago.  But they will engage in the stubbornness of immorality and deny it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We lost the debate only because Progressives controlled the media and the schools.
> 
> Those days are over.
Click to expand...























Who put Progressives in charge?  Americans.


----------



## Synthaholic

CrusaderFrank said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> They know they have lost the discussion a long time ago.  But they will engage in the stubbornness of immorality and deny it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They keep claiming that McCarthy had no intent to ruin the very people he was labeling as communist spies during the Red Scare.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> McCarthy tried to raise awareness about genuine Communist spies at State, not mere Communists, but spies who reported to Moscow
Click to expand...

Then why was he going after Hollywood?


----------



## Father Time

PoliticalChic said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> They know they have lost the discussion a long time ago.  But they will engage in the stubbornness of immorality and deny it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We lost the debate only because Progressives controlled the media and the schools.
> 
> Those days are over.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Perfect!
> 
> Only because the public has been raised like mushrooms, kept in the dark and fed you-know-what, has the truth not been revealed.
> 
> Consider an earlier post re: the real villain as far as American democracy, Woodrow Wilson...yet the Left demonizes a man who shined the spotlight on a true threat to America.
> 
> Today we call them 'statists,' but Whittaker Chambers wrote in his book WITNESS that liberals are/were incapable of ever effectively fighting Communism because they did not see anything in Communism that was antithetical to their own beliefs. In short, Liberals are Communists and Communists are Liberals.
Click to expand...


You're bad at fighting communism therefore you don't see anything wrong with communism?

Holy non sequitor.

Even more stupid is the idea that because liberals in the 50s couldn't fight communism well the liberals of today must be OK with communism


----------



## PoliticalChic

Synthaholic said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Zero Mostel, for one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Congrats!
> 
> You've earned a seat in the dumb row.
> 
> 1. Mostel was called before HUAC....don't you think you should read the thread before posting?  Too much work?  Dumb row.
> "The committee's anti-communist investigations are often confused with those of Senator Joseph McCarthy.." (especially by folks in the dumb row).
> House Un-American Activities Committee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 2. Filmography for someone who was 'ruined' shouldn't list much work...
> 
> Watership Down (1978) (voice) .... Kehaar
> "The Electric Company" .... Spell Binder (650 episodes, 1972-1977)
> - 130B (1977) TV episode (voice) .... Spell Binder
> - 129B (1977) TV episode (voice) .... Spell Binder
> - 128B (1977) TV episode (voice) .... Spell Binder
> - 127B (1977) TV episode (voice) .... Spell Binder
> - 126B (1977) TV episode (voice) .... Spell Binder
> (645 more)
> The Little Drummer Boy Book II (1976) (TV) (voice) .... Brutus
> The Front (1976) .... Hecky Brown
> Mastermind (1976) .... Inspector Hoku Ichihara
> "The CBS Festival of Lively Arts for Young People" .... Gianni Schicchi (1 episode, 1975)
> - Gianni Schicchi (1975) TV episode .... Gianni Schicchi
> Journey Into Fear (1975) .... Kopelkin
> Fore Play (1975) .... President/Don Pasquale
> Once Upon a Scoundrel (1974) .... Carlos del Refugio
> Rhinoceros (1974) .... John
> ... aka "Eugene Ionesco's Rhinoceros" - Australia (DVD box title), USA (poster title)
> Marco (1973) .... Kublai Khan
> Saga of Sonora (1973) (TV) .... Heavy Harry
> Old Faithful (1973) (TV) .... Ranger Zeppel
> The Hot Rock (1972) .... Abe Greenberg
> The Angel Levine (1970) .... Morris Mishkin
> 
> 
> The Great Bank Robbery (1969) .... Rev. Pious Blue
> Great Catherine (1968) .... Potemkin
> The Producers (1968) (as Zero) .... Max Bialystock
> Ride of the Valkyrie (1967)
> Children of the Exodus (1967) .... Narrator
> A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum (1966) .... Pseudolus
> "Play of the Week" .... Estragon (2 episodes, 1959-1961)
> - Waiting for Godot (1961) TV episode .... Estragon
> - World of Sholom Aleichem (1959) TV episode
> 
> 
> The World of Sholom Aleichem (1959) (TV)
> Zero Mostel (1959) (TV) .... Various Characters
> The Model and the Marriage Broker (1951) .... George Wixted
> The Guy Who Came Back (1951) .... Boots Mullins
> Mr. Belvedere Rings the Bell (1951) .... Emmett
> ... aka "Mr. Belvedere Blows His Whistle" - USA (alternative title)
> Sirocco (1951) .... Balukjiaan
> The Enforcer (1951) .... Big Babe Lazick
> Panic in the Streets (1950) .... Raymond Fitch
> 
> 
> "The Ford Theatre Hour" .... Banjo (1 episode, 1949)
> - The Man Who Came to Dinner (1949) TV episode .... Banjo
> Du Barry Was a Lady (1943) .... Rami - the Swami/Taliostra
> 
> Zero Mostel
> 
> Welcome to the dumb row.
> 
> 3. If this is ruined, and the best you can do, I declare my side the clear winner.
> 
> BTW, bettter draw a map so you can find your seat in the dumb row...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Show me all of his work between 1951 and 1959, dope.  That's when he was blacklisted.
> 
> *With growing popularity and many excellent reviews, Mostels career nonetheless came to a complete halt during the 1950s. Seeing many of his show business friends blacklisted and forced to name names of supposed Communists, it came as no surprise to him that he was named, too. On January 29, 1952, Martin Berkeley identified him to the House Committee on Un-American Activities (HUAC) as having been a member of the Communist party (Berkeley had named 160 people in allmore than any other witness). This was enough to stifle Mostel's career even before he was subpoenaed to appear before HUAC, which happened on August 14, 1955.*
> 
> He lost 8 years of work at a time when he was very popular.  By the 1960s and 1970s, America had realized what a fool McCarthy was, and he was able to work again.
> 
> It's way too easy to show you for the fool that you are.
Click to expand...


Show me that he was on food stamps.

You don't know how he was doing, do you?
Doesn't seem to have missed any meals.

And you've stopped claiming that Senator McCarthy had anything to do with Mr. Mostel, haven't you...so, who's the dope?

Back to the dumb row.

How's this:
"Claiming to have been blacklisted is Hollywoods version of coming over on the Mayflower."
Ann Coulter.

Heck, all he wanted to do was hide any affiliation with an organized crime 'family' that killed one hundred million human beings...
a mere bag o' shells.

With the list of credits that I provided, it's kind of tough for you to claim that he was 'ruined,' huh?

So, let's see how you're doing: battin' zero (mostel).


----------



## Synthaholic

PoliticalChic said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Congrats!
> 
> You've earned a seat in the dumb row.
> 
> 1. Mostel was called before HUAC....don't you think you should read the thread before posting?  Too much work?  Dumb row.
> "The committee's anti-communist investigations are often confused with those of Senator Joseph McCarthy.." (especially by folks in the dumb row).
> House Un-American Activities Committee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 2. Filmography for someone who was 'ruined' shouldn't list much work...
> 
> Watership Down (1978) (voice) .... Kehaar
> "The Electric Company" .... Spell Binder (650 episodes, 1972-1977)
> - 130B (1977) TV episode (voice) .... Spell Binder
> - 129B (1977) TV episode (voice) .... Spell Binder
> - 128B (1977) TV episode (voice) .... Spell Binder
> - 127B (1977) TV episode (voice) .... Spell Binder
> - 126B (1977) TV episode (voice) .... Spell Binder
> (645 more)
> The Little Drummer Boy Book II (1976) (TV) (voice) .... Brutus
> The Front (1976) .... Hecky Brown
> Mastermind (1976) .... Inspector Hoku Ichihara
> "The CBS Festival of Lively Arts for Young People" .... Gianni Schicchi (1 episode, 1975)
> - Gianni Schicchi (1975) TV episode .... Gianni Schicchi
> Journey Into Fear (1975) .... Kopelkin
> Fore Play (1975) .... President/Don Pasquale
> Once Upon a Scoundrel (1974) .... Carlos del Refugio
> Rhinoceros (1974) .... John
> ... aka "Eugene Ionesco's Rhinoceros" - Australia (DVD box title), USA (poster title)
> Marco (1973) .... Kublai Khan
> Saga of Sonora (1973) (TV) .... Heavy Harry
> Old Faithful (1973) (TV) .... Ranger Zeppel
> The Hot Rock (1972) .... Abe Greenberg
> The Angel Levine (1970) .... Morris Mishkin
> 
> 
> The Great Bank Robbery (1969) .... Rev. Pious Blue
> Great Catherine (1968) .... Potemkin
> The Producers (1968) (as Zero) .... Max Bialystock
> Ride of the Valkyrie (1967)
> Children of the Exodus (1967) .... Narrator
> A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum (1966) .... Pseudolus
> "Play of the Week" .... Estragon (2 episodes, 1959-1961)
> - Waiting for Godot (1961) TV episode .... Estragon
> - World of Sholom Aleichem (1959) TV episode
> 
> 
> The World of Sholom Aleichem (1959) (TV)
> Zero Mostel (1959) (TV) .... Various Characters
> The Model and the Marriage Broker (1951) .... George Wixted
> The Guy Who Came Back (1951) .... Boots Mullins
> Mr. Belvedere Rings the Bell (1951) .... Emmett
> ... aka "Mr. Belvedere Blows His Whistle" - USA (alternative title)
> Sirocco (1951) .... Balukjiaan
> The Enforcer (1951) .... Big Babe Lazick
> Panic in the Streets (1950) .... Raymond Fitch
> 
> 
> "The Ford Theatre Hour" .... Banjo (1 episode, 1949)
> - The Man Who Came to Dinner (1949) TV episode .... Banjo
> Du Barry Was a Lady (1943) .... Rami - the Swami/Taliostra
> 
> Zero Mostel
> 
> Welcome to the dumb row.
> 
> 3. If this is ruined, and the best you can do, I declare my side the clear winner.
> 
> BTW, bettter draw a map so you can find your seat in the dumb row...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Show me all of his work between 1951 and 1959, dope.  That's when he was blacklisted.
> 
> *With growing popularity and many excellent reviews, Mostels career nonetheless came to a complete halt during the 1950s. Seeing many of his show business friends blacklisted and forced to name names of supposed Communists, it came as no surprise to him that he was named, too. On January 29, 1952, Martin Berkeley identified him to the House Committee on Un-American Activities (HUAC) as having been a member of the Communist party (Berkeley had named 160 people in allmore than any other witness). This was enough to stifle Mostel's career even before he was subpoenaed to appear before HUAC, which happened on August 14, 1955.*
> 
> He lost 8 years of work at a time when he was very popular.  By the 1960s and 1970s, America had realized what a fool McCarthy was, and he was able to work again.
> 
> It's way too easy to show you for the fool that you are.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Show me that he was on food stamps.
> 
> You don't know how he was doing, do you?
> Doesn't seem to have missed any meals.*
> 
> And you've stopped claiming that Senator McCarthy had anything to do with Mr. Mostel, haven't you...so, who's the dope?
> 
> Back to the dumb row.
> 
> How's this:
> "Claiming to have been blacklisted is Hollywoods version of coming over on the Mayflower."
> Ann Coulter.
> 
> Heck, all he wanted to do was hide any affiliation with an organized crime 'family' that killed one hundred million human beings...
> a mere bag o' shells.
> 
> With the list of credits that I provided, it's kind of tough for you to claim that he was 'ruined,' huh?
> 
> So, let's see how you're doing: battin' zero (mostel).
Click to expand...




Is that where you are putting down the goalposts, dope?

You say he wasn't blacklisted, I prove he was from 1951-1959, so you claim that he didn't physically starve during those years?












Aren't you tired of me kicking your ass?


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Synthaholic said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> They know they have lost the discussion a long time ago.  But they will engage in the stubbornness of immorality and deny it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We lost the debate only because Progressives controlled the media and the schools.
> 
> Those days are over.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who put Progressives in charge?  Americans.
Click to expand...


Like I said, Progressive control of the Media = R.I.P.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Synthaholic said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Show me all of his work between 1951 and 1959, dope.  That's when he was blacklisted.
> 
> *With growing popularity and many excellent reviews, Mostels career nonetheless came to a complete halt during the 1950s. Seeing many of his show business friends blacklisted and forced to name names of supposed Communists, it came as no surprise to him that he was named, too. On January 29, 1952, Martin Berkeley identified him to the House Committee on Un-American Activities (HUAC) as having been a member of the Communist party (Berkeley had named 160 people in allmore than any other witness). This was enough to stifle Mostel's career even before he was subpoenaed to appear before HUAC, which happened on August 14, 1955.*
> 
> He lost 8 years of work at a time when he was very popular.  By the 1960s and 1970s, America had realized what a fool McCarthy was, and he was able to work again.
> 
> It's way too easy to show you for the fool that you are.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Show me that he was on food stamps.
> 
> You don't know how he was doing, do you?
> Doesn't seem to have missed any meals.*
> 
> And you've stopped claiming that Senator McCarthy had anything to do with Mr. Mostel, haven't you...so, who's the dope?
> 
> Back to the dumb row.
> 
> How's this:
> "Claiming to have been blacklisted is Hollywoods version of coming over on the Mayflower."
> Ann Coulter.
> 
> Heck, all he wanted to do was hide any affiliation with an organized crime 'family' that killed one hundred million human beings...
> a mere bag o' shells.
> 
> With the list of credits that I provided, it's kind of tough for you to claim that he was 'ruined,' huh?
> 
> So, let's see how you're doing: battin' zero (mostel).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is that where you are putting down the goalposts, dope?
> 
> You say he wasn't blacklisted, I prove he was from 1951-1959, so you claim that he didn't physically starve during those years?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aren't you tired of me kicking your ass?
Click to expand...


I must have missed where Zero Mostel was at US State Dept


----------



## PoliticalChic

Synthaholic said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Show me all of his work between 1951 and 1959, dope.  That's when he was blacklisted.
> 
> *With growing popularity and many excellent reviews, Mostel&#8217;s career nonetheless came to a complete halt during the 1950s. Seeing many of his show business friends blacklisted and forced to name names of supposed Communists, it came as no surprise to him that he was named, too. On January 29, 1952, Martin Berkeley identified him to the House Committee on Un-American Activities (HUAC) as having been a member of the Communist party (Berkeley had named 160 people in all&#8212;more than any other witness). This was enough to stifle Mostel's career even before he was subpoenaed to appear before HUAC, which happened on August 14, 1955.*
> 
> He lost 8 years of work at a time when he was very popular.  By the 1960s and 1970s, America had realized what a fool McCarthy was, and he was able to work again.
> 
> It's way too easy to show you for the fool that you are.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Show me that he was on food stamps.
> 
> You don't know how he was doing, do you?
> Doesn't seem to have missed any meals.*
> 
> And you've stopped claiming that Senator McCarthy had anything to do with Mr. Mostel, haven't you...so, who's the dope?
> 
> Back to the dumb row.
> 
> How's this:
> "Claiming to have been &#8220;blacklisted&#8221; is Hollywood&#8217;s version of coming over on the Mayflower."
> Ann Coulter.
> 
> Heck, all he wanted to do was hide any affiliation with an organized crime 'family' that killed one hundred million human beings...
> a mere bag o' shells.
> 
> With the list of credits that I provided, it's kind of tough for you to claim that he was 'ruined,' huh?
> 
> So, let's see how you're doing: battin' zero (mostel).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is that where you are putting down the goalposts, dope?
> 
> You say he wasn't blacklisted, I prove he was from 1951-1959, so you claim that he didn't physically starve during those years?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aren't you tired of me kicking your ass?
Click to expand...


Let's review, for folks with attention deficit, you know, like you.

1. The thread is called "Sen Joe McCarthy: American Patriot and Hero"

2. The debate grew to include a defense against the smear that the Senator 'ruined thousands of lives..."
It is a long thread, but you have no right to have it re-played for you: go back and read it.

3. I 'claimed' that there were not innocent folks ruined by Senator McCarthy. You claimed that Zero Mostel was such an individual.
Clearly you exemplified the old axiom: "never test how deep the water is with both feet." 

Every one of your posts has been rebutted, shredded, dissolved.
Clearly, you were over your head.

On the bright side, you stuck to the argument...weren't 'hit and run,' as I have often found you to be.

4. The thrust of the thread, from my perspective, was easily defended by demanding, as one does in philosophy, that you produce a sample of the 'ruined (innocent) folks' so claimed.
None have been able to do so...including you.

5. Now, if you wish to claim that adding 'innocent' to the discussion is some sort of goalpost-moving, you have a tough row to hoe...It is to be assumed that guilty folks should be 'ruined' at the very least, and they are the ones under discussion.

So, Zero Mosel is not anappropriate example because a) he was called by HUAC, not McCarty, b) he may well have been guilty, but refused to do other than take the fifth, nor did he suffer as a result: no jail, or fine, c) any blacklisting was industrial, not governmental, d) he may have found a difficult time in one industry, but clearly he made a living elsewhere.

This was not true for the victims of the communists that he supported: those victims were maimed, murdered, mutilated. And communist supporters were ready to offer up American citizens to the same fate...
Doesn't seem quite fair, does it?

Senator McCarthy's role was in identifying security risks *working for *the government; nor did he have the power to hire or fire, merely to identify.

Now, as for the absurd "Aren't you tired of me kicking your ass," based on our back and forth, you appear some thouroughly defeated  wretch hoping for some saving of face. 

You've offered some unintelligible word salad, howling obscure vexations about bizarre hyperbolic issues, believing that you sound  like they have some thoughtful critique...without ever having a decisive point.

Now, do a better job, or wander off into the sunset.


----------



## Wry Catcher

PoliticalChic said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> And, of course, there is no evidence of that, homosexuality, as well.
> 
> Liberals simply use the charge to bash those who they don't agree with.
> From columnist Ann Coulter:
> 
> "Liberals claim to love gays, but their default comeback to a conservative they disagree with is to call him gay
> 
> We need to get a rule book from the Democrats [on gays]:
> a.	Boy Scouts: As gay as you want to be
> b.	Priests: No gays!
> c.	Democratic politicians: Proud gay Americans.
> d.	Republican politicians: Presumed guilty.
> e.	White House press corps: No gays, unless they hate Bush.
> f.	Active-duty U.S. military: As gay as possible.
> g.	Men who date Liza Minnelli: Do I have to draw you a picture, Miss Thing?"
> 
> I think letter d covers your charge.
> 
> 
> 
> There needs to be a Godwin Law for Ann Coulter:  *"anyone who needs to quote Ann Coulter to bolster their argument has already lost the argument."*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your posts are insipid and tedious.
> Speak to the point...
> 
> I guess you would if you could.
> 
> Go back to your seat in the you-know-which row...
Click to expand...


LMAO, I almost spit out my coffee.  PC suggesting the posts of another are "insipid and tedious" - does anyone ever read her pompous, predictable prattle?


----------



## JakeStarkey

Political Chic is looking continually more harried and hassled.  With good reason.  She keeps moving the goal posts and folks keep putting the pigskins through the uprights on her.  Every time!

McCarthy was scum, so many were injured by the witch hunts, and America was seriously damaged by him, his ilk, and his very few wacko defenders today.


----------



## PoliticalChic

JakeStarkey said:


> Political Chic is looking continually more harried and hassled.  With good reason.  She keeps moving the goal posts and folks keep putting the pigskins through the uprights on her.  Every time!
> 
> McCarthy was scum, so many were injured by the witch hunts, and America was seriously damaged by him, his ilk, and his very few wacko defenders today.



Names?


----------



## PoliticalChic

Wry Catcher said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> There needs to be a Godwin Law for Ann Coulter:  *"anyone who needs to quote Ann Coulter to bolster their argument has already lost the argument."*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your posts are insipid and tedious.
> Speak to the point...
> 
> I guess you would if you could.
> 
> Go back to your seat in the you-know-which row...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> LMAO, I almost spit out my coffee.  PC suggesting the posts of another are "insipid and tedious" - does anyone ever read her pompous, predictable prattle?
Click to expand...


Jealousy is such a low emotion.


----------



## HUGGY

I think this thread is clear proof that "Son of Sam's" dog is still alive and well giving crazy people their marching orders!!!


----------



## JakeStarkey

The Columbia Cougarette's goals posts have been scored on every time in this thread.

The game is over, and the Columbia Cougars here have lost 73 to 0.

Back to the practice field, Political Chic Cougar.  Which one is you, Political Cougar.


----------



## Cecilie1200

CrusaderFrank said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> So how are you Progressives making out on the list of lives McCarthy ruined?
> 
> Joe McCarthy gets another feather in his wings every time a Progressives lies or insults instead of answering.
> 
> Also, has anyone on the Left bothered to Google Solomon Adler even one time? Would it help if I told you this McCarthy identified Soviet asset's code name was "Sax" or "Sachs" in the Venona Cables?
> 
> That help any?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So if Frank was a Senator leading an investigative committee naming terrorists and making a list he would not try to do everything he could to "ruin" them.
> 
> That is your argument Frank. You have made that claimoverand over and over and over and over again. Why? Because chic said it and you are a parroter.
> Frank would be running a kindler and gentler investigation just like McCarthy did.
> Frank, chic and ceile would have you believe Tail Gunner Joe was running a polite witch hunt and went out of their way not to upset the lives in any way of those they were persecuting.
> Frank, your argument makes no sense and you know it. If you do not know that the witch hunt McCarthy was on at the time had EVERY INTENT to hurt and ruin as badasthey could EVERY person they could then you are either too naive to know any better or just plain stupid.
> Give it up. Your argument has lost and I believe you now know it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Kinder, gentler? I would have demanded the death penalty for Alger Hiss and Dexter White
> 
> Again, you have no facts, you're parroting stuff back that the Progressive school marms drilling into your little head years ago and no amount of new information validating McCarthy's central thesis, i.e. State was overrun with Communist spies, will change it.
> 
> You're just not an intelligent person
Click to expand...


Exactly.  Arguing the whole "ruined or not ruined?" thing is like arguing whether Charles Manson's life has been "ruined" by keeping him in prison all these years.  Who cares?!  The arguable word in the phrase "ruined innocent lives" isn't "ruined", it's "innocent".  If you're spying on your country for a foreign power, or trying to influence your country's policies to favor a foreign power, you DESERVE to have your life ruined as far as I'm concerned.

So everyone can just spare me the list of "people whose lives were ruined" and start providing lists of "INNOCENT people" Senator McCarthy accused and/or investigated, ruined or otherwise.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Synthaholic said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ya..ya..and Hitler was just a miss understood socialist!  Give it up Frankie.  The only group that thought McCarthy was a hero was the John Birch Society.  Why don't YOU do a little research on what THEY stood for?  You may stimulate curiosity with those that were not alive at the time but for myself and any decent republican that stripped that vile demagogue of his podium ... there is no need to apologize.  Digging up the bones of that rabid dog to examine them for what purpose exactly?  Hero?  Your agenda in this matter is highly suspect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My only "Agenda" is the outright rejection and repudiation of all the Progressive lies I've digested these past decades: the "Greatness" of FDR, the "Evil" Of McCarthy, the Civil Rights Pioneering of LBJ, and so on and so on.
> 
> *Have you looked up Solomon Adler who the Venona Cables confirm was a wholly owned subsidiary of the USSR?*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then.  And Adler was British.
Click to expand...


Who gives a shit if he was British?  He was working for OUR government, and was a wholly-owned operative of the Soviet Union.  I don't care if he was originally from MARS.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Synthaholic said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> They keep claiming that McCarthy had no intent to ruin the very people he was labeling as communist spies during the Red Scare.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Name the 'ruined people,' simpleton.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Zero Mostel, for one.
Click to expand...


Is there any chance that the two lone brain cells huddling together for warmth in the vast, echoing emptiness of your head could POSSIBLY latch onto the difference between SENATOR McCarthy and the HOUSE Un-American Activities Committee?  Perhaps on the SECOND hundred times we repeat it, since the first hundred have passed you by without making an impression.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Synthaholic said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> He was gay but not a tranvestite.
> That is just an urban legend.
> Just like Obama is Muslim and Tail Gunner Joe McCarthy was a hero.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And, of course, there is no evidence of that, homosexuality, as well.
> 
> Liberals simply use the charge to bash those who they don't agree with.
> From columnist Ann Coulter:
> 
> "Liberals claim to love gays, but their default comeback to a conservative they disagree with is to call him gay
> 
> We need to get a rule book from the Democrats [on gays]:
> a.	Boy Scouts: As gay as you want to be
> b.	Priests: No gays!
> c.	Democratic politicians: Proud gay Americans.
> d.	Republican politicians: Presumed guilty.
> e.	White House press corps: No gays, unless they hate Bush.
> f.	Active-duty U.S. military: As gay as possible.
> g.	Men who date Liza Minnelli: Do I have to draw you a picture, Miss Thing?"
> 
> I think letter d covers your charge.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There needs to be a Godwin Law for Ann Coulter:  *"anyone who needs to quote Ann Coulter to bolster their argument has already lost the argument."*
Click to expand...


You can make up rules to govern our arguments just as soon as you produce an argument of your own other than "You're so stupid!"

Still waiting on you or any of your comrades to produce the name of ANY innocent person investigated by Senator McCarthy.  Been waiting for nearly thirty pages now, and the more you say, "There were innocent people ruined!" without naming any, the more obvious it becomes that you're a lying sack of steaming dog feces, complete with swarming flies.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Synthaholic said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Zero Mostel, for one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Congrats!
> 
> You've earned a seat in the dumb row.
> 
> 1. Mostel was called before HUAC....don't you think you should read the thread before posting?  Too much work?  Dumb row.
> "The committee's anti-communist investigations are often confused with those of Senator Joseph McCarthy.." (especially by folks in the dumb row).
> House Un-American Activities Committee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 2. Filmography for someone who was 'ruined' shouldn't list much work...
> 
> Watership Down (1978) (voice) .... Kehaar
> "The Electric Company" .... Spell Binder (650 episodes, 1972-1977)
> - 130B (1977) TV episode (voice) .... Spell Binder
> - 129B (1977) TV episode (voice) .... Spell Binder
> - 128B (1977) TV episode (voice) .... Spell Binder
> - 127B (1977) TV episode (voice) .... Spell Binder
> - 126B (1977) TV episode (voice) .... Spell Binder
> (645 more)
> The Little Drummer Boy Book II (1976) (TV) (voice) .... Brutus
> The Front (1976) .... Hecky Brown
> Mastermind (1976) .... Inspector Hoku Ichihara
> "The CBS Festival of Lively Arts for Young People" .... Gianni Schicchi (1 episode, 1975)
> - Gianni Schicchi (1975) TV episode .... Gianni Schicchi
> Journey Into Fear (1975) .... Kopelkin
> Fore Play (1975) .... President/Don Pasquale
> Once Upon a Scoundrel (1974) .... Carlos del Refugio
> Rhinoceros (1974) .... John
> ... aka "Eugene Ionesco's Rhinoceros" - Australia (DVD box title), USA (poster title)
> Marco (1973) .... Kublai Khan
> Saga of Sonora (1973) (TV) .... Heavy Harry
> Old Faithful (1973) (TV) .... Ranger Zeppel
> The Hot Rock (1972) .... Abe Greenberg
> The Angel Levine (1970) .... Morris Mishkin
> 
> 
> The Great Bank Robbery (1969) .... Rev. Pious Blue
> Great Catherine (1968) .... Potemkin
> The Producers (1968) (as Zero) .... Max Bialystock
> Ride of the Valkyrie (1967)
> Children of the Exodus (1967) .... Narrator
> A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum (1966) .... Pseudolus
> "Play of the Week" .... Estragon (2 episodes, 1959-1961)
> - Waiting for Godot (1961) TV episode .... Estragon
> - World of Sholom Aleichem (1959) TV episode
> 
> 
> The World of Sholom Aleichem (1959) (TV)
> Zero Mostel (1959) (TV) .... Various Characters
> The Model and the Marriage Broker (1951) .... George Wixted
> The Guy Who Came Back (1951) .... Boots Mullins
> Mr. Belvedere Rings the Bell (1951) .... Emmett
> ... aka "Mr. Belvedere Blows His Whistle" - USA (alternative title)
> Sirocco (1951) .... Balukjiaan
> The Enforcer (1951) .... Big Babe Lazick
> Panic in the Streets (1950) .... Raymond Fitch
> 
> 
> "The Ford Theatre Hour" .... Banjo (1 episode, 1949)
> - The Man Who Came to Dinner (1949) TV episode .... Banjo
> Du Barry Was a Lady (1943) .... Rami - the Swami/Taliostra
> 
> Zero Mostel
> 
> Welcome to the dumb row.
> 
> 3. If this is ruined, and the best you can do, I declare my side the clear winner.
> 
> BTW, bettter draw a map so you can find your seat in the dumb row...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Show me all of his work between 1951 and 1959, dope.  That's when he was blacklisted.
> 
> *With growing popularity and many excellent reviews, Mostels career nonetheless came to a complete halt during the 1950s. Seeing many of his show business friends blacklisted and forced to name names of supposed Communists, it came as no surprise to him that he was named, too. On January 29, 1952, Martin Berkeley identified him to the House Committee on Un-American Activities (HUAC) as having been a member of the Communist party (Berkeley had named 160 people in allmore than any other witness). This was enough to stifle Mostel's career even before he was subpoenaed to appear before HUAC, which happened on August 14, 1955.*
> 
> He lost 8 years of work at a time when he was very popular.  By the 1960s and 1970s, America had realized what a fool McCarthy was, and he was able to work again.
> 
> It's way too easy to show you for the fool that you are.
Click to expand...


YOU are showing someone for a fool?!  YOU?!  The person sitting there, continuing to blather about Mostel and McCarthy as though the two of them had anything to do with each other?!  YOU want to call someone ELSE a fool?!


----------



## Cecilie1200

Synthaholic said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then.  And Adler was British.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If that's your only contribution you should stick with finding your nuts.
> 
> Try this one: Harold Glasser (Venona name: Ruble)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Try another one?  Is that how it works?  You say something stupid, I show how stupid it is, so you want another try?
> 
> Sorry - fringers get one chance to show they are not unAmerican, bat-shit crazy traitor-lovers.
> 
> You failed.
Click to expand...



Oh, yeah.  "Okay, you were right about one.  But he was only working for the American government, not an American!" is a BIG win for you, shitforbrains.  You really showed him with your wily admission that he was correct.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Synthaholic said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> They keep claiming that McCarthy had no intent to ruin the very people he was labeling as communist spies during the Red Scare.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> McCarthy tried to raise awareness about genuine Communist spies at State, not mere Communists, but spies who reported to Moscow
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Then why was he going after Hollywood?
Click to expand...


  Have you always been this big a blithering dumbfuck, or did it require elective surgery?


----------



## Luissa

Cecilie1200 said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> And, of course, there is no evidence of that, homosexuality, as well.
> 
> Liberals simply use the charge to bash those who they don't agree with.
> From columnist Ann Coulter:
> 
> "Liberals claim to love gays, but their default comeback to a conservative they disagree with is to call him gay
> 
> We need to get a rule book from the Democrats [on gays]:
> a.	Boy Scouts: As gay as you want to be
> b.	Priests: No gays!
> c.	Democratic politicians: Proud gay Americans.
> d.	Republican politicians: Presumed guilty.
> e.	White House press corps: No gays, unless they hate Bush.
> f.	Active-duty U.S. military: As gay as possible.
> g.	Men who date Liza Minnelli: Do I have to draw you a picture, Miss Thing?"
> 
> I think letter d covers your charge.
> 
> 
> 
> There needs to be a Godwin Law for Ann Coulter:  *"anyone who needs to quote Ann Coulter to bolster their argument has already lost the argument."*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You can make up rules to govern our arguments just as soon as you produce an argument of your own other than "You're so stupid!"
> 
> Still waiting on you or any of your comrades to produce the name of ANY innocent person investigated by Senator McCarthy.  Been waiting for nearly thirty pages now, and the more you say, "There were innocent people ruined!" without naming any, the more obvious it becomes that you're a lying sack of steaming dog feces, complete with swarming flies.
Click to expand...


How about you show us how they broke the law? Do you feel having a political opinion, and belonging to a political party is breaking the law? How about Annie Moss? The FBI released her file, the only thing she did was go to a few meeting and buy a magazine. She was never proven to be a spy, she didn't break any laws. Do you think the government should be able to fire you because of the political beliefs you hold?

If they were never proven to be a spy they were innocent, it is not a crime to be a communist.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Synthaholic said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Show me all of his work between 1951 and 1959, dope.  That's when he was blacklisted.
> 
> *With growing popularity and many excellent reviews, Mostels career nonetheless came to a complete halt during the 1950s. Seeing many of his show business friends blacklisted and forced to name names of supposed Communists, it came as no surprise to him that he was named, too. On January 29, 1952, Martin Berkeley identified him to the House Committee on Un-American Activities (HUAC) as having been a member of the Communist party (Berkeley had named 160 people in allmore than any other witness). This was enough to stifle Mostel's career even before he was subpoenaed to appear before HUAC, which happened on August 14, 1955.*
> 
> He lost 8 years of work at a time when he was very popular.  By the 1960s and 1970s, America had realized what a fool McCarthy was, and he was able to work again.
> 
> It's way too easy to show you for the fool that you are.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Show me that he was on food stamps.
> 
> You don't know how he was doing, do you?
> Doesn't seem to have missed any meals.*
> 
> And you've stopped claiming that Senator McCarthy had anything to do with Mr. Mostel, haven't you...so, who's the dope?
> 
> Back to the dumb row.
> 
> How's this:
> "Claiming to have been blacklisted is Hollywoods version of coming over on the Mayflower."
> Ann Coulter.
> 
> Heck, all he wanted to do was hide any affiliation with an organized crime 'family' that killed one hundred million human beings...
> a mere bag o' shells.
> 
> With the list of credits that I provided, it's kind of tough for you to claim that he was 'ruined,' huh?
> 
> So, let's see how you're doing: battin' zero (mostel).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is that where you are putting down the goalposts, dope?
> 
> You say he wasn't blacklisted, I prove he was from 1951-1959, so you claim that he didn't physically starve during those years?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aren't you tired of me kicking your ass?
Click to expand...


Yeah, talking on and on about people with whom Senator McCarthy never had any contact at all is REALLY kicking her ass.  I'm awestruck at the brilliant debating tactic of getting things utterly, completely, laughably wrong and then sticking blindly to them after having their wrongness pointed out to you.


----------



## Cecilie1200

CrusaderFrank said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Show me that he was on food stamps.
> 
> You don't know how he was doing, do you?
> Doesn't seem to have missed any meals.*
> 
> And you've stopped claiming that Senator McCarthy had anything to do with Mr. Mostel, haven't you...so, who's the dope?
> 
> Back to the dumb row.
> 
> How's this:
> "Claiming to have been blacklisted is Hollywoods version of coming over on the Mayflower."
> Ann Coulter.
> 
> Heck, all he wanted to do was hide any affiliation with an organized crime 'family' that killed one hundred million human beings...
> a mere bag o' shells.
> 
> With the list of credits that I provided, it's kind of tough for you to claim that he was 'ruined,' huh?
> 
> So, let's see how you're doing: battin' zero (mostel).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is that where you are putting down the goalposts, dope?
> 
> You say he wasn't blacklisted, I prove he was from 1951-1959, so you claim that he didn't physically starve during those years?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aren't you tired of me kicking your ass?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I must have missed where Zero Mostel was at US State Dept
Click to expand...


It's right around the same place where SENATOR Joseph McCarthy was on the HOUSE Un-American Activities Committee, ie. in Synthaholic's fevered and possibly syphilitic imagination.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Luissa said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> There needs to be a Godwin Law for Ann Coulter:  *"anyone who needs to quote Ann Coulter to bolster their argument has already lost the argument."*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can make up rules to govern our arguments just as soon as you produce an argument of your own other than "You're so stupid!"
> 
> Still waiting on you or any of your comrades to produce the name of ANY innocent person investigated by Senator McCarthy.  Been waiting for nearly thirty pages now, and the more you say, "There were innocent people ruined!" without naming any, the more obvious it becomes that you're a lying sack of steaming dog feces, complete with swarming flies.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How about you show us how they broke the law? Do you feel having a political opinion, and belonging to a political party is breaking the law? How about Annie Moss? The FBI released her file, the only thing she did was go to a few meeting and buy a magazine. She was never proven to be a spy, she didn't break any laws. Do you think the government should be able to fire you because of the political beliefs you hold?
> 
> If they were never proven to be a spy they were innocent, it is not a crime to be a communist.
Click to expand...


Were you aware, Luissa, that spying on the US is illegal in the US?  Every single one of the people investigated by Senator McCarthy and his committee were, in fact, Soviet operatives.  This has been long since proven.  Moreover, Senator McCarthy was not conducting criminal investigations.  He was investigating people who should never have been given government security clearances, which was his JOB.  I'd say people who were spies for the Russians qualify as security risks during the Cold War, don't you?

In addition, I don't know who told you that Annie Moss was cleared by the FBI, but they're lying to you.  First of all, the question of Annie Lee Moss initially came up in relation to establishing the veracity and truthfulness of a witness, Mary Markward, who was an undercover FBI agent investigating the Community Party for seven years.  The Communist Party tried to say that Markward was lying and misidentifying Moss, who had a security clearance for the Army and the GAO that her Communist Party membership should have disqualified her for at that time.  

Second of all, it was the job of McCarthy's committee to investigate government security clearances that should never have been given, and that's what he was doing.  And no matter how much you'd like to pretend that being a member of the Communist Party in the middle of the Cold War is no big deal, it was the equivalent of giving the same security clearance to an al Qaeda sympathizer now.


----------



## Father Time

Cecilie1200 said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You can make up rules to govern our arguments just as soon as you produce an argument of your own other than "You're so stupid!"
> 
> Still waiting on you or any of your comrades to produce the name of ANY innocent person investigated by Senator McCarthy.  Been waiting for nearly thirty pages now, and the more you say, "There were innocent people ruined!" without naming any, the more obvious it becomes that you're a lying sack of steaming dog feces, complete with swarming flies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How about you show us how they broke the law? Do you feel having a political opinion, and belonging to a political party is breaking the law? How about Annie Moss? The FBI released her file, the only thing she did was go to a few meeting and buy a magazine. She was never proven to be a spy, she didn't break any laws. Do you think the government should be able to fire you because of the political beliefs you hold?
> 
> If they were never proven to be a spy they were innocent, it is not a crime to be a communist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Were you aware, Luissa, that spying on the US is illegal in the US?  Every single one of the people investigated by Senator McCarthy and his committee were, in fact, Soviet operatives.  This has been long since proven.
Click to expand...


Then prove it.


----------



## JakeStarkey

["Every single one of the people investigated by Senator McCarthy and his committee were, in fact, Soviet operatives. This has been long since proven. "

This is a McCarthyite statement, and no one of any decency can have any respect for it.


----------



## HUGGY

JakeStarkey said:


> ["Every single one of the people investigated by Senator McCarthy and his committee were, in fact, Soviet operatives. This has been long since proven. "
> 
> This is a McCarthyite statement, and no one of any decency can have any respect for it.



GAAAAaawwwwdd!!!   Poor CC is coming unglued!!  It is pitiful seeing human beings put themselves in such unretreatable positions.  I hope this is catch and release..otherwise the PETA folks are gonna be on our asses!!!!!


----------



## JakeStarkey

HUGGY said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> ["Every single one of the people investigated by Senator McCarthy and his committee were, in fact, Soviet operatives. This has been long since proven. "
> 
> This is a McCarthyite statement, and no one of any decency can have any respect for it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GAAAAaawwwwdd!!!   Poor CC is coming unglued!!  It is pitiful seeing human beings put themselves in such unretreatable positions.  I hope this is catch and release..otherwise the PETA folks are gonna be on our asses!!!!!
Click to expand...


    

Seriously, though.  Some of the lefties here will skew conclusions, but the far reactionaries to the right will outright lie and deny.  Talk about situational morality.


----------



## Synthaholic

CrusaderFrank said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Show me that he was on food stamps.
> 
> You don't know how he was doing, do you?
> Doesn't seem to have missed any meals.*
> 
> And you've stopped claiming that Senator McCarthy had anything to do with Mr. Mostel, haven't you...so, who's the dope?
> 
> Back to the dumb row.
> 
> How's this:
> "Claiming to have been blacklisted is Hollywoods version of coming over on the Mayflower."
> Ann Coulter.
> 
> Heck, all he wanted to do was hide any affiliation with an organized crime 'family' that killed one hundred million human beings...
> a mere bag o' shells.
> 
> With the list of credits that I provided, it's kind of tough for you to claim that he was 'ruined,' huh?
> 
> So, let's see how you're doing: battin' zero (mostel).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is that where you are putting down the goalposts, dope?
> 
> You say he wasn't blacklisted, I prove he was from 1951-1959, so you claim that he didn't physically starve during those years?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aren't you tired of me kicking your ass?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I must have missed where Zero Mostel was at US State Dept
Click to expand...

The question _was "whose life was ruined by being blacklisted?"_, chuckles.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Cecilie, one of Joe McCarthy's girls.  The good heavens stare and angels weep.

By the by, CC, Herbert Spencer (from your signature) is one of the great imperialists and racist bastards of his time.


----------



## HUGGY

Synthaholic said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is that where you are putting down the goalposts, dope?
> 
> You say he wasn't blacklisted, I prove he was from 1951-1959, so you claim that he didn't physically starve during those years?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aren't you tired of me kicking your ass?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I must have missed where Zero Mostel was at US State Dept
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The question _was "whose life was ruined by being blacklisted?"_, chuckles.
Click to expand...


That would be the kind of a question a NAZI would ask.  Are you or have you ever been a NAZI???  Have you ever agreed on any position taken by the NAZI party?  Is any member of your family a NAZI?  Where any of you ancestors NAZIS?  Did any of your ancestors know any NAZIS?  If you answer in the negative to these questions what proof do have have in support of yourself under the threat of quite possibly committing perjury?


----------



## Cecilie1200

Synthaholic said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is that where you are putting down the goalposts, dope?
> 
> You say he wasn't blacklisted, I prove he was from 1951-1959, so you claim that he didn't physically starve during those years?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aren't you tired of me kicking your ass?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I must have missed where Zero Mostel was at US State Dept
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The question _was "whose life was ruined by being blacklisted?"_, chuckles.
Click to expand...


No, dear, that's where YOU tried to drag the conversation with your insane insistence that Hollywood blacklisting had squat to do with Joseph McCarthy.  Your desire to ramble down tangents doesn't make those tangents the subject of the thread.


----------



## JakeStarkey

She sure parrots lines adhered to by CurveLight, Jake Fate, Political Chic, so forth and so on.

They all need to be put in fun of a House UnAmerican Behaviors Committee and forced to answer the questions.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

HUGGY said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> I must have missed where Zero Mostel was at US State Dept
> 
> 
> 
> The question _was "whose life was ruined by being blacklisted?"_, chuckles.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That would be the kind of a question a NAZI would ask.  Are you or have you ever been a NAZI???  Have you ever agreed on any position taken by the NAZI party?  Is any member of your family a NAZI?  Where any of you ancestors NAZIS?  Did any of your ancestors know any NAZIS?  If you answer in the negative to these questions what proof do have have in support of yourself under the threat of quite possibly committing perjury?
Click to expand...


The only person I know who is a Nazi beyond any reasonable doubt is Ezekiel Emanuel


----------



## Synthaholic

HUGGY said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> I must have missed where Zero Mostel was at US State Dept
> 
> 
> 
> The question _was "whose life was ruined by being blacklisted?"_, chuckles.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That would be the kind of a question a NAZI would ask.  Are you or have you ever been a NAZI???  Have you ever agreed on any position taken by the NAZI party?  Is any member of your family a NAZI?  Where any of you ancestors NAZIS?  Did any of your ancestors know any NAZIS?  If you answer in the negative to these questions what proof do have have in support of yourself under the threat of quite possibly committing perjury?
Click to expand...

Whew!  I was scared there for a moment, until I remembered that - just like being a Communist - being a Nazi is not illegal!


----------



## theDoctorisIn

CrusaderFrank said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> The question _was "whose life was ruined by being blacklisted?"_, chuckles.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That would be the kind of a question a NAZI would ask.  Are you or have you ever been a NAZI???  Have you ever agreed on any position taken by the NAZI party?  Is any member of your family a NAZI?  Where any of you ancestors NAZIS?  Did any of your ancestors know any NAZIS?  If you answer in the negative to these questions what proof do have have in support of yourself under the threat of quite possibly committing perjury?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The only person I know who is a Nazi beyond any reasonable doubt is Ezekiel Emanuel
Click to expand...


It's funny that you claim a Jew is a Nazi.

You're a funny dude, CF.


----------



## Synthaholic

theDoctorisIn said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> That would be the kind of a question a NAZI would ask.  Are you or have you ever been a NAZI???  Have you ever agreed on any position taken by the NAZI party?  Is any member of your family a NAZI?  Where any of you ancestors NAZIS?  Did any of your ancestors know any NAZIS?  If you answer in the negative to these questions what proof do have have in support of yourself under the threat of quite possibly committing perjury?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The only person I know who is a Nazi beyond any reasonable doubt is Ezekiel Emanuel
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's funny that you claim a Jew is a Nazi.
> 
> You're a funny dude, CF.
Click to expand...

He thinks Reagan was a Conservative, too!


----------



## CrusaderFrank

theDoctorisIn said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> That would be the kind of a question a NAZI would ask.  Are you or have you ever been a NAZI???  Have you ever agreed on any position taken by the NAZI party?  Is any member of your family a NAZI?  Where any of you ancestors NAZIS?  Did any of your ancestors know any NAZIS?  If you answer in the negative to these questions what proof do have have in support of yourself under the threat of quite possibly committing perjury?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The only person I know who is a Nazi beyond any reasonable doubt is Ezekiel Emanuel
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It's funny that you claim a Jew is a Nazi.
> 
> You're a funny dude, CF.
Click to expand...


George Soros is a Jew too but that didn't stop him from siding with the Nazis during WWII. I think he made his first money by spotting other Jews for the Nazis

Ezekiel Emanuel could be a guest lecturer at the Josef Mengele School of Medicine


----------



## HUGGY

CrusaderFrank said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> The question _was "whose life was ruined by being blacklisted?"_, chuckles.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That would be the kind of a question a NAZI would ask.  Are you or have you ever been a NAZI???  Have you ever agreed on any position taken by the NAZI party?  Is any member of your family a NAZI?  Where any of you ancestors NAZIS?  Did any of your ancestors know any NAZIS?  If you answer in the negative to these questions what proof do have have in support of yourself under the threat of quite possibly committing perjury?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The only person I know who is a Nazi beyond any reasonable doubt is Ezekiel Emanuel
Click to expand...


So what is he? Some kinda Jewish Jack Kavorkian?

You know him?  Strange!  But somehow fascinating...


----------



## CrusaderFrank

HUGGY said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> That would be the kind of a question a NAZI would ask.  Are you or have you ever been a NAZI???  Have you ever agreed on any position taken by the NAZI party?  Is any member of your family a NAZI?  Where any of you ancestors NAZIS?  Did any of your ancestors know any NAZIS?  If you answer in the negative to these questions what proof do have have in support of yourself under the threat of quite possibly committing perjury?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The only person I know who is a Nazi beyond any reasonable doubt is Ezekiel Emanuel
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So what is he? Some kinda Jewish Jack Kavorkian?
> 
> You know him?  Strange!  But somehow fascinating...
Click to expand...


We should not create, on the basis of age or any other characteristic over which individuals have no control, classes of Untermenschen whose lives and well being are deemed not worth spending money on." -- Ezekiel Emanuel

Hmmmm  Untermenschen interesting word choice.

Also, there's a thread for this and I won't be derailed here.  http://www.usmessageboard.com/healt...f-mengele-or-ezekiel-emanuel.html#post1463599

And, once again, every time Progressive fail to mention either a life ruined by McCarthy or respond intelligently to any of the issues we've raised including the confirmation by the Soviets themselves that they did indeed maintain a robust spy network at US State, we win.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Synthaholic said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> The question _was "whose life was ruined by being blacklisted?"_, chuckles.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That would be the kind of a question a NAZI would ask.  Are you or have you ever been a NAZI???  Have you ever agreed on any position taken by the NAZI party?  Is any member of your family a NAZI?  Where any of you ancestors NAZIS?  Did any of your ancestors know any NAZIS?  If you answer in the negative to these questions what proof do have have in support of yourself under the threat of quite possibly committing perjury?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Whew!  I was scared there for a moment, until I remembered that - just like being a Communist - being a Nazi is not illegal!
Click to expand...


No one ever claimed either of them was.  Question is, would you think it a good idea to have given security clearances and government jobs to Nazis during WWII?


----------



## JakeStarkey

You don't think the OSS did just that, Cecilie, during WWII with guys we were working with in Germany?  And, yeah, we gave quite a number of jobs to former Nazis after the war, particularly in the rocket science and metallurgy fields.  We used former Nazis to run CIA networks in Europe and Africa.

You need to stop singing "I wanna be Joh-eee's girl" and pay attention to the real world.


----------



## HUGGY

You people are fuckin hopeless!

The thing on NAZIS was a joke!

It was just an example of how stupid it is to get all worked up and go off the deep end accusing people of things they had nothing to do with and have had no control over.  

But to answer your question... I am sure that Lindberg was a NAZI and he had high clearance.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Lindberg certainly was a Nazi running dog with an American security clearance.  However, "Nonetheless, he supported the war effort after Pearl Harbor and flew many combat missions in the Pacific Theater of World War II as a civilian consultant, even though President Franklin D. Roosevelt had refused to reinstate his Army Air Corps colonel's commission that he had resigned earlier in 1939." wikipedia


----------



## Gadawg73

PoliticalChic said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> "As fun as it is to imagine the former chief of the Federal Bureau of Investigation in drag, most historians believe this is just an urban legend."
> Was J. Edgar Hoover really a transvestite?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He was gay but not a tranvestite.
> That is just an urban legend.
> Just like Obama is Muslim and Tail Gunner Joe McCarthy was a hero.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And, of course, there is no evidence of that, homosexuality, as well.
> 
> Liberals simply use the charge to bash those who they don't agree with.
> From columnist Ann Coulter:
> 
> "Liberals claim to love gays, but their default comeback to a conservative they disagree with is to call him gay
> 
> We need to get a rule book from the Democrats [on gays]:
> a.	Boy Scouts: As gay as you want to be
> b.	Priests: No gays!
> c.	Democratic politicians: Proud gay Americans.
> d.	Republican politicians: Presumed guilty.
> e.	White House press corps: No gays, unless they hate Bush.
> f.	Active-duty U.S. military: As gay as possible.
> g.	Men who date Liza Minnelli: Do I have to draw you a picture, Miss Thing?"
> 
> I think letter d covers your charge.
Click to expand...


I could care less if he was gay but he was gay.
And I support gay rights and gay marriage.
Gays do not bother me.


----------



## HUGGY

Gadawg73 said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> He was gay but not a tranvestite.
> That is just an urban legend.
> Just like Obama is Muslim and Tail Gunner Joe McCarthy was a hero.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And, of course, there is no evidence of that, homosexuality, as well.
> 
> Liberals simply use the charge to bash those who they don't agree with.
> From columnist Ann Coulter:
> 
> "Liberals claim to love gays, but their default comeback to a conservative they disagree with is to call him gay
> 
> We need to get a rule book from the Democrats [on gays]:
> a.	Boy Scouts: As gay as you want to be
> b.	Priests: No gays!
> c.	Democratic politicians: Proud gay Americans.
> d.	Republican politicians: Presumed guilty.
> e.	White House press corps: No gays, unless they hate Bush.
> f.	Active-duty U.S. military: As gay as possible.
> g.	Men who date Liza Minnelli: Do I have to draw you a picture, Miss Thing?"
> 
> I think letter d covers your charge.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I could care less if he was gay but he was gay.
> And I support gay rights and gay marriage.
> *Gays do not bother me*.
Click to expand...


So it really is *your fault *gays *bother other people*!!!!!


----------



## Gadawg73

CrusaderFrank said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> So how are you Progressives making out on the list of lives McCarthy ruined?
> 
> Joe McCarthy gets another feather in his wings every time a Progressives lies or insults instead of answering.
> 
> Also, has anyone on the Left bothered to Google Solomon Adler even one time? Would it help if I told you this McCarthy identified Soviet asset's code name was "Sax" or "Sachs" in the Venona Cables?
> 
> That help any?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So if Frank was a Senator leading an investigative committee naming terrorists and making a list he would not try to do everything he could to "ruin" them.
> 
> That is your argument Frank. You have made that claimoverand over and over and over and over again. Why? Because chic said it and you are a parroter.
> Frank would be running a kindler and gentler investigation just like McCarthy did.
> Frank, chic and ceile would have you believe Tail Gunner Joe was running a polite witch hunt and went out of their way not to upset the lives in any way of those they were persecuting.
> Frank, your argument makes no sense and you know it. If you do not know that the witch hunt McCarthy was on at the time had EVERY INTENT to hurt and ruin as badasthey could EVERY person they could then you are either too naive to know any better or just plain stupid.
> Give it up. Your argument has lost and I believe you now know it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Kinder, gentler? I would have demanded the death penalty for Alger Hiss and Dexter White
> 
> Again, you have no facts, you're parroting stuff back that the Progressive school marms drilling into your little head years ago and no amount of new information validating McCarthy's central thesis, i.e. State was overrun with Communist spies, will change it.
> 
> You're just not an intelligent person
Click to expand...


I went to military school in the 60s Frank. 
I was carrying an automatic rifle before you were even born.
I am teaching you what happened.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Frank is a fool who sees life out of a prism of bias, gadawag.  He has not paid the price, as have many of us here on the board, to understand just how incredibly complicated all this crap can be at times.  Give him time, and maybe he will learn.


----------



## HUGGY

CrusaderFrank said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> So how are you Progressives making out on the list of lives McCarthy ruined?
> 
> Joe McCarthy gets another feather in his wings every time a Progressives lies or insults instead of answering.
> 
> Also, has anyone on the Left bothered to Google Solomon Adler even one time? Would it help if I told you this McCarthy identified Soviet asset's code name was "Sax" or "Sachs" in the Venona Cables?
> 
> That help any?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So if Frank was a Senator leading an investigative committee naming terrorists and making a list he would not try to do everything he could to "ruin" them.
> 
> That is your argument Frank. You have made that claimoverand over and over and over and over again. Why? Because chic said it and you are a parroter.
> Frank would be running a kindler and gentler investigation just like McCarthy did.
> Frank, chic and ceile would have you believe Tail Gunner Joe was running a polite witch hunt and went out of their way not to upset the lives in any way of those they were persecuting.
> Frank, your argument makes no sense and you know it. If you do not know that the witch hunt McCarthy was on at the time had EVERY INTENT to hurt and ruin as badasthey could EVERY person they could then you are either too naive to know any better or just plain stupid.
> Give it up. Your argument has lost and I believe you now know it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *Kinder, gentler? I would have demanded the death penalty for Alger Hiss and Dexter White*
> 
> Again, you have no facts, you're parroting stuff back that the Progressive school marms drilling into your little head years ago and no amount of new information validating McCarthy's central thesis, i.e. State was overrun with Communist spies, will change it.
> 
> You're just not an intelligent person
Click to expand...


So obviously you must agree with me that Cheney, Rove and Bush should have been convicted of treason and executed for outting Valerie Plame and the CIA brass plate front Brewster Jennings.


----------



## Gadawg73

Cecilie1200 said:


> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You can make up rules to govern our arguments just as soon as you produce an argument of your own other than "You're so stupid!"
> 
> Still waiting on you or any of your comrades to produce the name of ANY innocent person investigated by Senator McCarthy.  Been waiting for nearly thirty pages now, and the more you say, "There were innocent people ruined!" without naming any, the more obvious it becomes that you're a lying sack of steaming dog feces, complete with swarming flies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How about you show us how they broke the law? Do you feel having a political opinion, and belonging to a political party is breaking the law? How about Annie Moss? The FBI released her file, the only thing she did was go to a few meeting and buy a magazine. She was never proven to be a spy, she didn't break any laws. Do you think the government should be able to fire you because of the political beliefs you hold?
> 
> If they were never proven to be a spy they were innocent, it is not a crime to be a communist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Were you aware, Luissa, that spying on the US is illegal in the US?  Every single one of the people investigated by Senator McCarthy and his committee were, in fact, Soviet operatives.  This has been long since proven.  Moreover, Senator McCarthy was not conducting criminal investigations.  He was investigating people who should never have been given government security clearances, which was his JOB.  I'd say people who were spies for the Russians qualify as security risks during the Cold War, don't you?
> 
> In addition, I don't know who told you that Annie Moss was cleared by the FBI, but they're lying to you.  First of all, the question of Annie Lee Moss initially came up in relation to establishing the veracity and truthfulness of a witness, Mary Markward, who was an undercover FBI agent investigating the Community Party for seven years.  The Communist Party tried to say that Markward was lying and misidentifying Moss, who had a security clearance for the Army and the GAO that her Communist Party membership should have disqualified her for at that time.
> 
> Second of all, it was the job of McCarthy's committee to investigate government security clearances that should never have been given, and that's what he was doing.  And no matter how much you'd like to pretend that being a member of the Communist Party in the middle of the Cold War is no big deal, it was the equivalent of giving the same security clearance to an al Qaeda sympathizer now.
Click to expand...


You are a damn fool. Most investigated were never prosecuted and many that were the convictions were overturned because the witnesses admitted they were forced to lie. 
In 1950 McCarthy produced his "list" and stated there were 205 names on it.
How come he NEVER showed anyone the list?
McCarthy started investigations into The United States Army. He stated there was a spy ring amongst the Signal Corps. Not a damn thing you moron came from any of those allegations of Army personnel. Not one indictment or prosecution. Nothing, nada, just false allegations AND WITCH HUNTS ABOUT NOTHING.Then he tried to frame an Army dentist that REFUSED to answer questions on an Army loyalty questionaire. McCArthy claimed he was a communist and then had hearings with the Army where Army brass came in and blasted Tail Gunner Joe into next week and called him a God Damn liar and fraud. That lasted THIRTY SIX FRIGGIN DAYS.
And nothing came of it. His onw party censured him in the Senate as a result of this Army 
witch hunt which was a fraudjustlike the rest of his work.
You are a disgrace to America. A fraud and ignorant because you refuse to research and investigate the facts.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Bravo, Huggy!


----------



## Synthaholic

Cecilie1200 said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> That would be the kind of a question a NAZI would ask.  Are you or have you ever been a NAZI???  Have you ever agreed on any position taken by the NAZI party?  Is any member of your family a NAZI?  Where any of you ancestors NAZIS?  Did any of your ancestors know any NAZIS?  If you answer in the negative to these questions what proof do have have in support of yourself under the threat of quite possibly committing perjury?
> 
> 
> 
> Whew!  I was scared there for a moment, until I remembered that - just like being a Communist - being a Nazi is not illegal!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No one ever claimed either of them was.  Question is, would you think it a good idea to have given security clearances and government jobs to Nazis during WWII?
Click to expand...


No, dope - Nazi's were our enemy in WWII.  What was the USSR, again?  Oh yeah - our allies!


----------



## Synthaholic

HUGGY said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> And, of course, there is no evidence of that, homosexuality, as well.
> 
> Liberals simply use the charge to bash those who they don't agree with.
> From columnist Ann Coulter:
> 
> "Liberals claim to love gays, but their default comeback to a conservative they disagree with is to call him gay
> 
> We need to get a rule book from the Democrats [on gays]:
> a.	Boy Scouts: As gay as you want to be
> b.	Priests: No gays!
> c.	Democratic politicians: Proud gay Americans.
> d.	Republican politicians: Presumed guilty.
> e.	White House press corps: No gays, unless they hate Bush.
> f.	Active-duty U.S. military: As gay as possible.
> g.	Men who date Liza Minnelli: Do I have to draw you a picture, Miss Thing?"
> 
> I think letter d covers your charge.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I could care less if he was gay but he was gay.
> And I support gay rights and gay marriage.
> *Gays do not bother me*.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So it really is *your fault *gays *bother other people*!!!!!
Click to expand...

It's the Liberal mindset!


----------



## Cecilie1200

Synthaholic said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Whew!  I was scared there for a moment, until I remembered that - just like being a Communist - being a Nazi is not illegal!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No one ever claimed either of them was.  Question is, would you think it a good idea to have given security clearances and government jobs to Nazis during WWII?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, dope - Nazi's were our enemy in WWII.  What was the USSR, again?  Oh yeah - our allies!
Click to expand...


And now it's YOUR turn to be told to keep the fuck up, dumbass.

Was McCarthy investigating security breaches during WWII?  Why, no, he wasn't.  He was investigating them during the Cold War.  What was the USSR during the Cold War?  

Since you clearly need pictures drawn in crayon to be able to follow the fucking conversation, let's see if I can produce something equivalent to that for you:

Allowing Communists and Soviet sympathizers to hold government jobs with security clearances DURING THE COLD WAR is like allowing Nazis to hold government jobs with security clearances DURING WORLD WAR 2.  It is not illegal to be either, and it wasn't illegal to be either at those times in history.  But it was foolish and dangerous AT THEIR RESPECTIVE TIMES to allow them to infiltrate our government.

Is that simple enough for you, or should I try to find a Dr. Seuss explanation?


----------



## Cecilie1200

Gadawg73 said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> 
> How about you show us how they broke the law? Do you feel having a political opinion, and belonging to a political party is breaking the law? How about Annie Moss? The FBI released her file, the only thing she did was go to a few meeting and buy a magazine. She was never proven to be a spy, she didn't break any laws. Do you think the government should be able to fire you because of the political beliefs you hold?
> 
> If they were never proven to be a spy they were innocent, it is not a crime to be a communist.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Were you aware, Luissa, that spying on the US is illegal in the US?  Every single one of the people investigated by Senator McCarthy and his committee were, in fact, Soviet operatives.  This has been long since proven.  Moreover, Senator McCarthy was not conducting criminal investigations.  He was investigating people who should never have been given government security clearances, which was his JOB.  I'd say people who were spies for the Russians qualify as security risks during the Cold War, don't you?
> 
> In addition, I don't know who told you that Annie Moss was cleared by the FBI, but they're lying to you.  First of all, the question of Annie Lee Moss initially came up in relation to establishing the veracity and truthfulness of a witness, Mary Markward, who was an undercover FBI agent investigating the Community Party for seven years.  The Communist Party tried to say that Markward was lying and misidentifying Moss, who had a security clearance for the Army and the GAO that her Communist Party membership should have disqualified her for at that time.
> 
> Second of all, it was the job of McCarthy's committee to investigate government security clearances that should never have been given, and that's what he was doing.  And no matter how much you'd like to pretend that being a member of the Communist Party in the middle of the Cold War is no big deal, it was the equivalent of giving the same security clearance to an al Qaeda sympathizer now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are a damn fool. Most investigated were never prosecuted and many that were the convictions were overturned because the witnesses admitted they were forced to lie.
> In 1950 McCarthy produced his "list" and stated there were 205 names on it.
> How come he NEVER showed anyone the list?
> McCarthy started investigations into The United States Army. He stated there was a spy ring amongst the Signal Corps. Not a damn thing you moron came from any of those allegations of Army personnel. Not one indictment or prosecution. Nothing, nada, just false allegations AND WITCH HUNTS ABOUT NOTHING.Then he tried to frame an Army dentist that REFUSED to answer questions on an Army loyalty questionaire. McCArthy claimed he was a communist and then had hearings with the Army where Army brass came in and blasted Tail Gunner Joe into next week and called him a God Damn liar and fraud. That lasted THIRTY SIX FRIGGIN DAYS.
> And nothing came of it. His onw party censured him in the Senate as a result of this Army
> witch hunt which was a fraudjustlike the rest of his work.
> You are a disgrace to America. A fraud and ignorant because you refuse to research and investigate the facts.
Click to expand...


Still waiting on JUST ONE NAME of an innocent person investigated by McCarthy.  Whenever you want to stop lecturing me on your talking points and produce that name, feel free.  Until then, you're just spouting bullshit and lies, and proving that they're lies with every word.


----------



## JakeStarkey

You have moved the goal posts again, CC, because you keep getting your ass spanked.

Girl, you lost this long time ago.

The U.S. employed plenty of Germans as agents in WWII, and we sure provided plenty of them with jobs and security clearances after the war and gave them citizenship to point.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

HUGGY said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So if Frank was a Senator leading an investigative committee naming terrorists and making a list he would not try to do everything he could to "ruin" them.
> 
> That is your argument Frank. You have made that claimoverand over and over and over and over again. Why? Because chic said it and you are a parroter.
> Frank would be running a kindler and gentler investigation just like McCarthy did.
> Frank, chic and ceile would have you believe Tail Gunner Joe was running a polite witch hunt and went out of their way not to upset the lives in any way of those they were persecuting.
> Frank, your argument makes no sense and you know it. If you do not know that the witch hunt McCarthy was on at the time had EVERY INTENT to hurt and ruin as badasthey could EVERY person they could then you are either too naive to know any better or just plain stupid.
> Give it up. Your argument has lost and I believe you now know it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Kinder, gentler? I would have demanded the death penalty for Alger Hiss and Dexter White*
> 
> Again, you have no facts, you're parroting stuff back that the Progressive school marms drilling into your little head years ago and no amount of new information validating McCarthy's central thesis, i.e. State was overrun with Communist spies, will change it.
> 
> You're just not an intelligent person
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So obviously you must agree with me that Cheney, Rove and Bush should have been convicted of treason and executed for outting Valerie Plame and the CIA brass plate front Brewster Jennings.
Click to expand...


Richard Armitage "outed" Val "Shhh -- I'm a Spy!" Plame. You keep forgetting Progressives no longer control the facts or the message.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Gadawg73 said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Luissa said:
> 
> 
> 
> How about you show us how they broke the law? Do you feel having a political opinion, and belonging to a political party is breaking the law? How about Annie Moss? The FBI released her file, the only thing she did was go to a few meeting and buy a magazine. She was never proven to be a spy, she didn't break any laws. Do you think the government should be able to fire you because of the political beliefs you hold?
> 
> If they were never proven to be a spy they were innocent, it is not a crime to be a communist.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Were you aware, Luissa, that spying on the US is illegal in the US?  Every single one of the people investigated by Senator McCarthy and his committee were, in fact, Soviet operatives.  This has been long since proven.  Moreover, Senator McCarthy was not conducting criminal investigations.  He was investigating people who should never have been given government security clearances, which was his JOB.  I'd say people who were spies for the Russians qualify as security risks during the Cold War, don't you?
> 
> In addition, I don't know who told you that Annie Moss was cleared by the FBI, but they're lying to you.  First of all, the question of Annie Lee Moss initially came up in relation to establishing the veracity and truthfulness of a witness, Mary Markward, who was an undercover FBI agent investigating the Community Party for seven years.  The Communist Party tried to say that Markward was lying and misidentifying Moss, who had a security clearance for the Army and the GAO that her Communist Party membership should have disqualified her for at that time.
> 
> Second of all, it was the job of McCarthy's committee to investigate government security clearances that should never have been given, and that's what he was doing.  And no matter how much you'd like to pretend that being a member of the Communist Party in the middle of the Cold War is no big deal, it was the equivalent of giving the same security clearance to an al Qaeda sympathizer now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are a damn fool. Most investigated were never prosecuted and many that were the convictions were overturned because the witnesses admitted they were forced to lie.
> In 1950 McCarthy produced his "list" and stated there were 205 names on it.
> How come he NEVER showed anyone the list?
> McCarthy started investigations into The United States Army. He stated there was a spy ring amongst the Signal Corps. Not a damn thing you moron came from any of those allegations of Army personnel. Not one indictment or prosecution. Nothing, nada, just false allegations AND WITCH HUNTS ABOUT NOTHING.Then he tried to frame an Army dentist that REFUSED to answer questions on an Army loyalty questionaire. McCArthy claimed he was a communist and then had hearings with the Army where Army brass came in and blasted Tail Gunner Joe into next week and called him a God Damn liar and fraud. That lasted THIRTY SIX FRIGGIN DAYS.
> And nothing came of it. His onw party censured him in the Senate as a result of this Army
> witch hunt which was a fraudjustlike the rest of his work.
> You are a disgrace to America. A fraud and ignorant because you refuse to research and investigate the facts.
Click to expand...


The List?  You mean the list of names from the Klaus Memo that disappeared from the National Archives in March 1993?

Is that what you're talking about?

Have you googled Solomon Adler like I've asked you to no less than 6 times?


----------



## Gadawg73

JakeStarkey said:


> Frank is a fool who sees life out of a prism of bias, gadawag.  He has not paid the price, as have many of us here on the board, to understand just how incredibly complicated all this crap can be at times.  Give him time, and maybe he will learn.



I agree as Frank is intelligent, does ask questions and sorts through each opinion. I see evidence that he does think for himself most of the time.
But not this time.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

JakeStarkey said:


> Frank is a fool who sees life out of a prism of bias, gadawag.  He has not paid the price, as have many of us here on the board, to understand just how incredibly complicated all this crap can be at times.  Give him time, and maybe he will learn.



Yes, Jake, that's my problem, I just don't understand things the same way you do, it's so darn complicated. You have to actually read stuff! Can you imagine that?


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Gadawg73 said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Frank is a fool who sees life out of a prism of bias, gadawag.  He has not paid the price, as have many of us here on the board, to understand just how incredibly complicated all this crap can be at times.  Give him time, and maybe he will learn.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree as Frank is intelligent, does ask questions and sorts through each opinion. I see evidence that he does think for himself most of the time.
> But not this time.
Click to expand...


Have you figured out yet that I began this thread by stating that the list you asked about was stolen from the National Archives in March 1993 by some person unknown?


----------



## johnrocks

I didn't realize  that he was so young when he died or that he served only ten years in the Senate.


----------



## Gadawg73

CrusaderFrank said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Frank is a fool who sees life out of a prism of bias, gadawag.  He has not paid the price, as have many of us here on the board, to understand just how incredibly complicated all this crap can be at times.  Give him time, and maybe he will learn.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree as Frank is intelligent, does ask questions and sorts through each opinion. I see evidence that he does think for himself most of the time.
> But not this time.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Have you figured out yet that I began this thread by stating that the list you asked about was stolen from the National Archives in March 1993 by some person unknown?
Click to expand...


Frank, I see NO chain of custody on that list from if it was ever in the archives.
A handful of right wing blog claims that it is missing but where is it that it ever was put into the archives?
Who archived it, who presented it to beput into the archuves, where is it listed aspartof his archive history, etc. Nothing anywhere on that as everything else archived on McCArthy anyone can find. But no list anywhere.
Are you claiming the chain of custody was also stolen? Nope, they have that and it is complete and the list is not on it.
You know Frank, people make stuff all the time.
I do find evidence of a report of ONE person being missing but nothing of a chain of evidence anywhere that his list of 250 was everput into the archives.
How come he always waved it FRank and never let anyone see it?


----------



## Synthaholic

CrusaderFrank said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Frank is a fool who sees life out of a prism of bias, gadawag.  He has not paid the price, as have many of us here on the board, to understand just how incredibly complicated all this crap can be at times.  Give him time, and maybe he will learn.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree as Frank is intelligent, does ask questions and sorts through each opinion. I see evidence that he does think for himself most of the time.
> But not this time.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Have you figured out yet that I began this thread by stating that the list you asked about was stolen from the National Archives in March 1993 by some person unknown?
Click to expand...

Why would Sandy Berger be interested in those documents?


----------



## Cecilie1200

Synthaholic said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree as Frank is intelligent, does ask questions and sorts through each opinion. I see evidence that he does think for himself most of the time.
> But not this time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have you figured out yet that I began this thread by stating that the list you asked about was stolen from the National Archives in March 1993 by some person unknown?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why would Sandy Berger be interested in those documents?
Click to expand...


Yeah, because it MUST have been Sandy Berger.  Couldn't have been anyone else.


----------



## PoliticalChic

Synthaholic said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Whew!  I was scared there for a moment, until I remembered that - just like being a Communist - being a Nazi is not illegal!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No one ever claimed either of them was.  Question is, would you think it a good idea to have given security clearances and government jobs to Nazis during WWII?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, dope - Nazi's were our enemy in WWII.  What was the USSR, again?  Oh yeah - our allies!
Click to expand...


Well, I suppose that you will be celebrating today, August 23rd, as an anniversary of sorts for our 'ally'....

	August 23, 1939 Adolph Hitler and Joseph Stalin became allies when them signed a pact. As a result of Hitler's victories and Stalin's land-grabs, most of Eurasia was under totalitarian control when the attack of June 22, 1941, came.  The MolotovRibbentrop Pact, officially titled the Treaty of Non-Aggression between Germany and the Soviet Union.

"Being a Communist for much of the last century was not a theoretical matter. Communists working in Democratic administrations in the thirties, forties, and fifties, had a profound influence on which countries would fall under Communist control.The USSR ruined Eastern Europe, which was not exactly like East Timor. These were sophisticated countries. The Soviet conquest of Eastern Europe consisted of backwoods savages conquering sophisticated civilizations.
And the Democrats were rooting for the savages."
Ann Coulter


And the side you're on...open to question.


----------



## Synthaholic

Cecilie1200 said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have you figured out yet that I began this thread by stating that the list you asked about was stolen from the National Archives in March 1993 by some person unknown?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why would Sandy Berger be interested in those documents?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah, because it MUST have been Sandy Berger.  Couldn't have been anyone else.
Click to expand...

Frank keeps posting photos of Sandy Berger, dope.  I would suggest that you should direct your uninformed comments toward him if I thought you were the least bit honest.


----------



## Cecilie1200

PoliticalChic said:


> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> No one ever claimed either of them was.  Question is, would you think it a good idea to have given security clearances and government jobs to Nazis during WWII?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, dope - Nazi's were our enemy in WWII.  What was the USSR, again?  Oh yeah - our allies!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, I suppose that you will be celebrating today, August 23rd, as an anniversary of sorts for our 'ally'....
> 
> August 23, 1939 Adolph Hitler and Joseph Stalin became allies when them signed a pact. As a result of Hitler's victories and Stalin's land-grabs, most of Eurasia was under totalitarian control when the attack of June 22, 1941, came.  The MolotovRibbentrop Pact, officially titled the Treaty of Non-Aggression between Germany and the Soviet Union.
> 
> "Being a Communist for much of the last century was not a theoretical matter. Communists working in Democratic administrations in the thirties, forties, and fifties, had a profound influence on which countries would fall under Communist control.The USSR ruined Eastern Europe, which was not exactly like East Timor. These were sophisticated countries. The Soviet conquest of Eastern Europe consisted of backwoods savages conquering sophisticated civilizations.
> And the Democrats were rooting for the savages."
> Ann Coulter
> 
> 
> And the side you're on...open to question.
Click to expand...


And by the way, I don't particularly want our allies spying on us, or being given sensitive government positions so they can spy on us, either.


----------



## PoliticalChic

HUGGY said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So if Frank was a Senator leading an investigative committee naming terrorists and making a list he would not try to do everything he could to "ruin" them.
> 
> That is your argument Frank. You have made that claimoverand over and over and over and over again. Why? Because chic said it and you are a parroter.
> Frank would be running a kindler and gentler investigation just like McCarthy did.
> Frank, chic and ceile would have you believe Tail Gunner Joe was running a polite witch hunt and went out of their way not to upset the lives in any way of those they were persecuting.
> Frank, your argument makes no sense and you know it. If you do not know that the witch hunt McCarthy was on at the time had EVERY INTENT to hurt and ruin as badasthey could EVERY person they could then you are either too naive to know any better or just plain stupid.
> Give it up. Your argument has lost and I believe you now know it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Kinder, gentler? I would have demanded the death penalty for Alger Hiss and Dexter White*
> 
> Again, you have no facts, you're parroting stuff back that the Progressive school marms drilling into your little head years ago and no amount of new information validating McCarthy's central thesis, i.e. State was overrun with Communist spies, will change it.
> 
> You're just not an intelligent person
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So obviously you must agree with me that Cheney, Rove and Bush should have been convicted of treason and executed for outting Valerie Plame and the CIA brass plate front Brewster Jennings.
Click to expand...



"...Cheney, Rove and Bush should have been convicted of treason and executed for outting Valerie Plame..."
It seems that there is no end to the misinformation that you are willing to believe.

There really is no excuse in an age in which research opportunities are so readily available.


June 2003: According to the Washington Posts Bob Woodward, the following interview with Richard Armitage at the State Department transpired "about a month before" Robert Novaks column appeared on July 14, 2003.

Woodward: Well it was Joe Wilson who was sent by the agency, isnt it?

Armitage: His wife works for the agency.

Woodward: Why doesnt that come out? Why does that have to be a big secret? 

Armitage: (over) Everybody knows it.

Woodward: Everyone knows?

Armitage: Yeah. And they know cause Joe Wilsons been calling everybody. Hes pissed off cause he was designated as a low level guy went out to look at it. So hes all pissed off.

When, Why Joe Wilson Outed Valerie Plame | Sweetness & Light


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Gadawg73 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree as Frank is intelligent, does ask questions and sorts through each opinion. I see evidence that he does think for himself most of the time.
> But not this time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have you figured out yet that I began this thread by stating that the list you asked about was stolen from the National Archives in March 1993 by some person unknown?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Frank, I see NO chain of custody on that list from if it was ever in the archives.
> A handful of right wing blog claims that it is missing but where is it that it ever was put into the archives?
> Who archived it, who presented it to beput into the archuves, where is it listed aspartof his archive history, etc. Nothing anywhere on that as everything else archived on McCArthy anyone can find. But no list anywhere.
> Are you claiming the chain of custody was also stolen? Nope, they have that and it is complete and the list is not on it.
> You know Frank, people make stuff all the time.
> I do find evidence of a report of ONE person being missing but nothing of a chain of evidence anywhere that his list of 250 was everput into the archives.
> How come he always waved it FRank and never let anyone see it?
Click to expand...


You're hopeless. Just totally hopeless.  

How many times must I explain to you that this came from a book. 

Do you know what a book is? Well this book is by an author (Authors write books)  This author has written several books and in compiling his research for this book (this is probably more than you can safely digest) he tried to locate source documents at the National Archives but they were removed in March 1993.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Synthaholic said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Synthaholic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why would Sandy Berger be interested in those documents?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, because it MUST have been Sandy Berger.  Couldn't have been anyone else.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Frank keeps posting photos of Sandy Berger, dope.  I would suggest that you should direct your uninformed comments toward him if I thought you were the least bit honest.
Click to expand...


I posted Sandy Berger because as far as I know, he's the only person who ever stole documents from the National Archives and the Klaus Memo disappeared when Sandy had easy access and friendly guards there.


----------



## konradv

McCarthy wass a drunk and a publicity hound.  The few Communists he may have found is far outweighed by the lives he harmed or destroyed.  Lauding him just shows the wingnut right for the fascists they are.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

konradv said:


> McCarthy wass a drunk and a publicity hound.  The few Communists he may have found is far outweighed by the lives he harmed or destroyed.  Lauding him just shows the wingnut right for the fascists they are.



If ignorance is bliss Konradv is on Cloud 9


----------



## PoliticalChic

konradv said:


> McCarthy wass a drunk and a publicity hound.  The few Communists he may have found is far outweighed by the lives he harmed or destroyed.  Lauding him just shows the wingnut right for the fascists they are.



Since you clearly didn't have the time- or initiative- to read this thread, would you be good enough to identify the " lives he harmed or destroyed"?

Be sure you don't include the "Communists he may have found."

There's a lot on the line here, because if you cannot do so, you would be identifying "the wingnut for the [loudmouthed blowhards] they are."

And, of course, that would be you.

So, get right to work.​


----------



## Cecilie1200

konradv said:


> McCarthy wass a drunk and a publicity hound.  The few Communists he may have found is far outweighed by the lives he harmed or destroyed.  Lauding him just shows the wingnut right for the fascists they are.



Does this mean you're going to step up where your cowardly comrades did not and NAME some of the innocent lives "harmed or destroyed"?  Don't bother naming guilty ones, since I don't give a shit about them, and I doubt anyone else does, either.


----------



## Cecilie1200

PoliticalChic said:


> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> McCarthy wass a drunk and a publicity hound.  The few Communists he may have found is far outweighed by the lives he harmed or destroyed.  Lauding him just shows the wingnut right for the fascists they are.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since you clearly didn't have the time- or initiative- to read this thread, would you be good enough to identify the " lives he harmed or destroyed"?
> 
> Be sure you don't include the "Communists he may have found."
> 
> There's a lot on the line here, because if you cannot do so, you would be identifying "the wingnut for the [loudmouthed blowhards] they are."
> 
> And, of course, that would be you.
> 
> So, get right to work.​
Click to expand...



​


----------



## JakeStarkey

CC and PC do not get to change the goal posts in the middle of the game.  Sorry, ladies, put up or shut up.  All of your questions about who was harmed have been answered.  The sickening of the cultural environment by McCarthy has clearly been explicated.  That both of you consistently refuse to accept that you have royally screwed up in this thread remains immaterial.

You have a massive fal.


----------



## konradv

*
August 23, 1939 Adolph Hitler and Joseph Stalin became allies when them signed a pact. As a result of Hitler's victories and Stalin's land-grabs, most of Eurasia was under totalitarian control when the attack of June 22, 1941, came.*

Not standing up for Stalin or anything, but what land grabs had he made in '39?  That all occurred in '45.  It's hilarious that you'd want me cite names about common knowledge that McCarthy went after people that were clearly not guilty, but expect us believe youy when your knowledge of history is so obviously flawed, PC.  McCarthy was a THUG and you know it.


----------



## PoliticalChic

konradv said:


> *
> August 23, 1939 Adolph Hitler and Joseph Stalin became allies when them signed a pact. As a result of Hitler's victories and Stalin's land-grabs, most of Eurasia was under totalitarian control when the attack of June 22, 1941, came.*
> 
> Not standing up for Stalin or anything, but what land grabs had he made in '39?  That all occurred in '45.  It's hilarious that you'd want me cite names about common knowledge that McCarthy went after people that were clearly not guilty, but expect us believe youy when your knowledge of history is so obviously flawed, PC.  McCarthy was a THUG and you know it.



I carefully perused your response, vainly hoping to finally find the names that you so glibly announced as 'destroyed lives'...

Alas, (sigh) you've just turned out to be another pretender, aspiring to the 'Loudmouthed Blowhard' award of the day.

Although there are several other aspirants, you have assumed the coveted 'inside rail' by tossing in the very lowest and least respected of arguments, the ever-popular-with-the- troglodytes,  "...and you know it."


Let's be clear: I never lie, and always indicate exactly what I believe. I assume the same is true of you...and, in that case, this is not a compliment.


Folks like you who are neither brave enough, nor inquisitive enough to confront the powers that be, the pop culture, the liberal cant, must defend mythology, always and forever.
It is your curse, and your destiny.


----------



## PoliticalChic

konradv said:


> *
> August 23, 1939 Adolph Hitler and Joseph Stalin became allies when them signed a pact. As a result of Hitler's victories and Stalin's land-grabs, most of Eurasia was under totalitarian control when the attack of June 22, 1941, came.*
> 
> Not standing up for Stalin or anything, but what land grabs had he made in '39?  That all occurred in '45.  It's hilarious that you'd want me cite names about common knowledge that McCarthy went after people that were clearly not guilty, but expect us believe youy when your knowledge of history is so obviously flawed, PC.  McCarthy was a THUG and you know it.



Oh, wow! I almost missed this!

"...but what land grabs had he made in '39?"
Did you ever hear of Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania 'land grab,' 1940?

Did you ever hear of the Finland 'land grab,' 1939?

Did you ever hear of the Poland 'land grab,' 1939?


"...but expect us believe youy when your knowledge of history is so obviously flawed, PC." 

Your post is nothing if not comedy gold...

1. "...expect us believe..." 
Could that be 'expect us TO believe' ?
Who would the 'us' be? You have a tapeworm?
You folks should shake off that inordinate fear of being alone.

2. "...expect us believe youy..."
Could that be 'expect us to believe YOU...'

3. Why do I have the feeling that you are sitting there wishing you hadn't said               "...your knowledge of history is so obviously flawed..."

Another post and you'll have me arrested for felony laughter!


Come up with that list of names yet?

(Probably best if you quietly slink away, tail between your legs...)


----------



## JakeStarkey

PC has still lost this OP.

It's not about the USSR's imperialist ways.

It's about how Joe McCarthy was not an American hero, but rather the only conclusion that can be made after her presentation, an American zero.


----------



## PoliticalChic

JakeStarkey said:


> PC has still lost this OP.
> 
> It's not about the USSR's imperialist ways.
> 
> It's about how Joe McCarthy was not an American hero, but rather the only conclusion that can be made after her presentation, an American zero.



I love it, Stinky...

You're like the guy getting pummeled, and he's shouting "Well, have you had enough yet???" as he wipes the blood off his chin.

Funny,... juvenile, but funny.


----------



## Queen

Wow. I think the right has finally lost it. This is an amazing OP. Wow. 

Awesome nuttos. You've rendered me speechless.


----------



## HUGGY

I don't think Frankie is really this stupid.  I think he just ran accross this info, inserted it in the OP and ran with it just to see if it would fly.  He does stuff like this just to stir up the crazy fundis knowing that they will carry the ball no matter how stupid the mission.  It is mind numbing to witness the depths morons like PC will stoop to, to go along with anything no matter how vile.  They defend every idiotic righty whitey idea tooth and nail as if their very existance depends on it.  This is the kind of mentality the NAZIS counted on and used to damn near take over the world.


----------



## Gadawg73

PoliticalChic said:


> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> *
> August 23, 1939 Adolph Hitler and Joseph Stalin became allies when them signed a pact. As a result of Hitler's victories and Stalin's land-grabs, most of Eurasia was under totalitarian control when the attack of June 22, 1941, came.*
> 
> Not standing up for Stalin or anything, but what land grabs had he made in '39?  That all occurred in '45.  It's hilarious that you'd want me cite names about common knowledge that McCarthy went after people that were clearly not guilty, but expect us believe youy when your knowledge of history is so obviously flawed, PC.  McCarthy was a THUG and you know it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I carefully perused your response, vainly hoping to finally find the names that you so glibly announced as 'destroyed lives'...
> 
> Alas, (sigh) you've just turned out to be another pretender, aspiring to the 'Loudmouthed Blowhard' award of the day.
> 
> Although there are several other aspirants, you have assumed the coveted 'inside rail' by tossing in the very lowest and least respected of arguments, the ever-popular-with-the- troglodytes,  "...and you know it."
> 
> 
> Let's be clear: I never lie, and always indicate exactly what I believe. I assume the same is true of you...and, in that case, this is not a compliment.
> 
> 
> Folks like you who are neither brave enough, nor inquisitive enough to confront the powers that be, the pop culture, the liberal cant, must defend mythology, always and forever.
> It is your curse, and your destiny.
Click to expand...


Do you call everyone that disagrees on anything with you a liberal?
That is your first response here every time. 
I can always depend on that consistency in your answers. Every time I see "liberal" in your response it is a give away that you have once again done no research whatsoever.
Just like McCarthy and his "communist" in every speech and "hearing".
Liberal, communist. No substance or fact in any of it. Just name calling like a 5 year old.
But it sells ads on Lush and Sean so it works for you.


----------



## Gadawg73

PC is like a dude I grew up with that went to school across town. He was a pretty good tailback but would never admit reality. 
We beat them my sophomore, junior and senior year. He was a flashy TB with outside and downfield speed but had a hard time running inside the tackles, especially in the 2nd half. After about a 42-7 defeat his senior year we were shaking hands after the game and he stated  "I think I am still leading the region in rushing." Not a word on the wood shed ass kicking he had taken.
Of course he wasn't right but he thought he was.


----------



## PoliticalChic

Gadawg73 said:


> PC is like a dude I grew up with that went to school across town. He was a pretty good tailback but would never admit reality.
> We beat them my sophomore, junior and senior year. He was a flashy TB with outside and downfield speed but had a hard time running inside the tackles, especially in the 2nd half. After about a 42-7 defeat his senior year we were shaking hands after the game and he stated  "I think I am still leading the region in rushing." Not a word on the wood shed ass kicking he had taken.
> Of course he wasn't right but he thought he was.



dullard73, 

Talk, talk, talk...about all the women you had to fight your way through, the games you won...yet the level of posts you offer casts the lie to all of it.

 The late liberal lawyer William Kunstler said, &#8220;It makes no difference anymore whether the attack on Tawana (Brawley) really happened. It doesn&#8217;t disguise the fact that a lot of young black women are treated the way she said she was treated.&#8221; 

This argument can be dispensed with in two words: Name one.

 And, using the same strategy, one can destroy another liberal myth: that Senator Joseph McCarthy "ruined thousands of innocent lives.&#8221; 

The easily-led brigade fails to ascertain truth, and bathes in a warm bath of  liberal mythology&#8230;

The litmus test is fairly simple&#8230;and you being equally so, it should appeal to you:
If Senator Joseph McCarthy had such a deleterious effect, and &#8216;ruined&#8217; so many lives, it should be effortless for you to name a half dozen or so whose lives were so &#8216;ruined.&#8217;

1.	If you cannot do so, it clearly casts the lie to your premise.
2.	Ruin does not refer to being insulted. You must show actual damages, i.e. imprisoned and later found innocent of the charges or never working again&#8230;



In hundreds of posts (wow, over 500), you vapid villains use insult, cast aspersions, offer vituperation...but nothing where the rubber meets the road. 
No facts, no rebuttal,...no names.

No names of innocent folks whose lives were ruined by the American hero who shone the spotlight on the cockroaches, paid as agents by the murderous Soviet Union:
Not a thousand
Not a hundred
not ten- five-  not even one.

You've become my best witness, witless though you are, for the folks who read this thread, probablly starting off agreeing with the left, about McCarthy.

But now they wonder...why is it that there are no 'ruined lives'...?
Hmmmmmmmm.....


Thanks so much, Dullard.


----------



## PoliticalChic

Gadawg73 said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> konradv said:
> 
> 
> 
> *
> August 23, 1939 Adolph Hitler and Joseph Stalin became allies when them signed a pact. As a result of Hitler's victories and Stalin's land-grabs, most of Eurasia was under totalitarian control when the attack of June 22, 1941, came.*
> 
> Not standing up for Stalin or anything, but what land grabs had he made in '39?  That all occurred in '45.  It's hilarious that you'd want me cite names about common knowledge that McCarthy went after people that were clearly not guilty, but expect us believe youy when your knowledge of history is so obviously flawed, PC.  McCarthy was a THUG and you know it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I carefully perused your response, vainly hoping to finally find the names that you so glibly announced as 'destroyed lives'...
> 
> Alas, (sigh) you've just turned out to be another pretender, aspiring to the 'Loudmouthed Blowhard' award of the day.
> 
> Although there are several other aspirants, you have assumed the coveted 'inside rail' by tossing in the very lowest and least respected of arguments, the ever-popular-with-the- troglodytes,  "...and you know it."
> 
> 
> Let's be clear: I never lie, and always indicate exactly what I believe. I assume the same is true of you...and, in that case, this is not a compliment.
> 
> 
> Folks like you who are neither brave enough, nor inquisitive enough to confront the powers that be, the pop culture, the liberal cant, must defend mythology, always and forever.
> It is your curse, and your destiny.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Do you call everyone that disagrees on anything with you a liberal?
> That is your first response here every time.
> I can always depend on that consistency in your answers. Every time I see "liberal" in your response it is a give away that you have once again done no research whatsoever.
> Just like McCarthy and his "communist" in every speech and "hearing".
> Liberal, communist. No substance or fact in any of it. Just name calling like a 5 year old.
> But it sells ads on Lush and Sean so it works for you.
Click to expand...


Gratitude again, Dullard, for this opportunity, or, as our President calls it, 'a teachable moment.'

Your error is known as 'Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc.'
It means that you have misunderstood my motivation, as you have misunderstood so much in life.

Rather than calling every one who disagrees with me a liberal, I look for liberals to antagonize.

Here, let me show you how it works:

When folks on the left, complain about the pain or discomfort my argument or remarks have caused them, I simply say  put some ice on that, as Juanita Broaddrick says Hillarys husband did after raping her.

Thanks for playing.


----------



## JakeStarkey

PC still lives in an alter reality.  She has lost the entire OP, every time she changed the goal posts the other side kicked the ball through every time, and she simply has not lived up to the standards of her alma mater, Columbia College, Columbia, Missouri.  I have finally figured out who she is in the avatar.  Admittedly, she is a better soccer player than political or historical pundit. 

PC, let's face it.  If old Joe had you defending him back then, he would have gone to jail for a very long time.


----------



## Cecilie1200

konradv said:


> *
> August 23, 1939 Adolph Hitler and Joseph Stalin became allies when them signed a pact. As a result of Hitler's victories and Stalin's land-grabs, most of Eurasia was under totalitarian control when the attack of June 22, 1941, came.*
> 
> Not standing up for Stalin or anything, but what land grabs had he made in '39?  That all occurred in '45.  It's hilarious that you'd want me cite names about common knowledge that McCarthy went after people that were clearly not guilty, but expect us believe youy when your knowledge of history is so obviously flawed, PC.  McCarthy was a THUG and you know it.



No, what's hilarious - and pathetic - is that YOU want to talk about "lives destroyed" and "thug", but you want to do it in general terms, offer no substantiation, and expect us to take your word for it.  Sonny, I wouldn't take your word for it if you told me water was wet, so don't give me that "and you know it" bullshit and think it's going to work.  If my "knowledge of history is so obviously flawed", set it straight.  

One of you ass clowns needs to grow a pair sometime soon, because we're at 34 pages and counting, and I have yet to see the name of ONE of these "people who were clearly not guilty".  If it's so goddamned clear, you should have produced one twenty pages ago at least.  Let's see some testicular fortitude, for crying out loud.


----------



## Cecilie1200

PoliticalChic said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> PC has still lost this OP.
> 
> It's not about the USSR's imperialist ways.
> 
> It's about how Joe McCarthy was not an American hero, but rather the only conclusion that can be made after her presentation, an American zero.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I love it, Stinky...
> 
> You're like the guy getting pummeled, and he's shouting "Well, have you had enough yet???" as he wipes the blood off his chin.
> 
> Funny,... juvenile, but funny.
Click to expand...


I have this image in my head of the Black Knight from "Monty Python and the Holy Grail".

Honestly, I'm ready to prosecute these guys for assault, for making me laugh so hard I nearly have a hernia.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Queen said:


> Wow. I think the right has finally lost it. This is an amazing OP. Wow.
> 
> Awesome nuttos. You've rendered me speechless.



Good.  Shut the fuck up, then.  We have enough pretentious losers who want to talk about what "Everyone knows" without actually proving that "everyone" is correct.


----------



## JakeStarkey

You stupid wench, CC.  Shut you pie hole until you can do better than this!  *Lithuania*, *Latvia*, *Estonia*, parts of *Romania*, parts of *Finland*, parts of *Poland*, all before the end of 1941.  You silly, simplistic imitation of a mind.  Don't you do any reading at all?  God blessed you with a brain, and you are filling it with noxious noise.  Judas Priest, CC, you have no excuse for this.

You are a pretentious twit is a simple poseur.


----------



## Cecilie1200

JakeStarkey said:


> You stupid wench, CC.  Shut you pie hole until you can do better than this!  *Lithuania*, *Latvia*, *Estonia*, parts of *Romania*, parts of *Finland*, parts of *Poland*, all before the end of 1941.  You silly, simplistic imitation of a mind.  Don't you do any reading at all?  God blessed you with a brain, and you are filling it with noxious noise.  Judas Priest, CC, you have no excuse for this.
> 
> You are a pretentious twit is a simple poseur.



Who the hell are you talking to?  Who's CC?


----------



## JakeStarkey

What I have often called you, Cecilie1200, as you well know.  No thinking person who knows any history at all can possibly post what you did about no USSR gains before 1945.

But since you are pretending, let me post it again, so you have no doubt: "You stupid wench, CC. Shut you pie hole until you can do better than this! Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, parts of Romania, parts of Finland, parts of Poland, all before the end of 1941. You silly, simplistic imitation of a mind. Don't you do any reading at all? God blessed you with a brain, and you are filling it with noxious noise. Judas Priest, CC, you have no excuse for this.

You are a pretentious twit who is a simple poseur."


----------



## Cecilie1200

JakeStarkey said:


> What I have often called you, Cecilie1200, as you well know.  No thinking person who knows any history at all can possibly post what you did about no USSR gains before 1945.
> 
> But since you are pretending, let me post it again, so you have no doubt: "You stupid wench, CC. Shut you pie hole until you can do better than this! Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, parts of Romania, parts of Finland, parts of Poland, all before the end of 1941. You silly, simplistic imitation of a mind. Don't you do any reading at all? God blessed you with a brain, and you are filling it with noxious noise. Judas Priest, CC, you have no excuse for this.
> 
> You are a pretentious twit who is a simple poseur."



Okay, first of all, dumbfuck, you've been on my ignore list forever, so I have no fucking clue what you normally call me.  The only reason I'm occasionally looking at your posts in THIS thread is because I've been monumentally bored this week.

Second of all, shitforbrains, if you're going to talk about how dumb I am, you might want to at least reference it to something I said.  As of yet, I haven't said a goddamned word about any of those countries you listed, or anything that would pertain to them.  That was PoliticalChic and konradv.  So SOMEONE needs to shut their pie hole until they can do better than this, but it ain't me.

Way to completely step on your johnson, asshat.  Next time, why don't you just catch it in your zipper?


----------



## JakeStarkey

CC, you have nothing to offer.  You made a silly, stupid ass remark that affected everyone of those countries.  The depth of stupidity of your remark is amazing, and that is best you can do in return, assclown?  You need to admit you got it wrong and back up.

You stupid, stupid twit.


----------



## Cecilie1200

JakeStarkey said:


> CC, you have nothing to offer.  You made a silly, stupid ass remark that affected everyone of those countries.  The depth of stupidity of your remark is amazing, and that is best you can do in return, assclown?  You need to admit you got it wrong and back up.
> 
> You stupid, stupid twit.



Okay, skidmark.  You haven't, in 34 pages, been able to show us one innocent person "ruined" by Joe McCarthy.  Perhaps it would be an easier task for you to show me this remark I made about those countries.  See if you can manage it in under 20 pages, okay?  I'm not getting any younger here.


----------



## JakeStarkey

No, don't deflect, twit.  You got it wrong above about the countries, so you lost that one.

As for the injured, through all of the pages it has been proved over and over and over.

Why do you hate America so badly that you would deliberately twist and lie?


----------



## Cecilie1200

JakeStarkey said:


> No, don't deflect, twit.  You got it wrong above about the countries, so you lost that one.
> 
> As for the injured, through all of the pages it has been proved over and over and over.
> 
> Why do you hate America so badly that you would deliberately twist and lie?



Asking you to show me the remark is not "deflecting", cumstain.  And just as with the "injured", it would be an easy thing to simply do, IF it wasn't a total lie spouted by a moron.  And just as with the "injured", you can't do it, which demonstrates that it's a lie and you're a moron.

One more time.  Can you or can't you show me the remark I allegedly made in regards to those countries, or can you - as with any request for evidence - merely say, "It happened!  Everyone knows it happened!  I'm proved right by my ability to say that I'm right!"?


----------



## JakeStarkey

Soviet occupation of Latvia in 1940 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(and) "After having withdrawn from Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina following the June 1940 Soviet Ultimatum, Romania allied with Nazi Germany and declared war on the Soviet Union. Romanian troops, placed under the German High Command, entered World War II in 1941, as part of Operation Barbarossa. After reoccupying the territory annexed by the Soviet Union in 1940, Romania also occupied Southern Ukraine all the way to the Southern Bug. However Romania's eastern campaign ended in disaster, notably at Stalingrad."

Soviet occupation of Romania - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Personally and generally, the victims of McCarthy and his efforts have been pointed out in these pages over and over and over.


----------



## Cecilie1200

JakeStarkey said:


> Soviet occupation of Latvia in 1940 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> (and) "After having withdrawn from Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina following the June 1940 Soviet Ultimatum, Romania allied with Nazi Germany and declared war on the Soviet Union. Romanian troops, placed under the German High Command, entered World War II in 1941, as part of Operation Barbarossa. After reoccupying the territory annexed by the Soviet Union in 1940, Romania also occupied Southern Ukraine all the way to the Southern Bug. However Romania's eastern campaign ended in disaster, notably at Stalingrad."
> 
> Soviet occupation of Romania - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Personally and generally, the victims of McCarthy and his efforts have been pointed out in these pages over and over and over.



Is English not your first language, or is it just that you need a diagram and instructions from Houston Control to wipe your own ass in the bathroom?

I didn't ask you to give me links to prove the alleged remark was wrong, fool.  I asked you to show me THE REMARK I ALLEGEDLY MADE.  Just cut and fucking paste from the message board, asshole.  It's not goddamned hard, and shouldn't require an entire page of fucking posts asking you to do it.

And no, dunce.  The victims of McCarthy have never once - NOT ONCE - been "pointed out in these pages", let alone "over and over and over".  They've been ASKED FOR over and over and over, and all we've gotten in return is "everyone knows it happened", and "you conservatives are so stupid".  The handful of times an actual NAME has been thrown up, it's been someone who had NOT ONE FUCKING THING to do with McCarthy, because they were in Hollywood and investigated by the HOUSE Unamerican Activities Committee, rather than the SENATE committee of which McCarthy was the head.

This particular fail is so epic, there should be bards writing fucking sagas about it.


----------



## JakeStarkey

OK, you are a twit who won'tt think for herself.  You have fail here and p'wned herself.  What irks me is that you have a brain that functions and you refuse to use it.  When you start letting ideology do your thinking, you will always get lost.


----------



## Cecilie1200

JakeStarkey said:


> OK, you are a twit who won'tt think for herself.  You have fail here and p'wned herself.  What irks me is that you have a brain that functions and you refuse to use it.  When you start letting ideology do your thinking, you will always get lost.



In other words, you went back and checked, realized that I didn't make the remark and that you were making an utter fool of yourself in public, and you're too big of a chickenshit puswad to simply admit it, apologize, and move on.

Let me just add this one last nail in your coffin:

Quote: Originally Posted by *konradv * 

August 23, 1939 Adolph Hitler and Joseph Stalin became allies when them signed a pact. As a result of Hitler's victories and Stalin's land-grabs, most of Eurasia was under totalitarian control when the attack of June 22, 1941, came.

Not standing up for Stalin or anything, but what land grabs had he made in '39? That all occurred in '45. It's hilarious that you'd want me cite names about common knowledge that McCarthy went after people that were clearly not guilty, but expect us believe youy when your knowledge of history is so obviously flawed, *PC*. McCarthy was a THUG and you know it.

Oh, wow! I almost missed this!

"...but what land grabs had he made in '39?"
Did you ever hear of Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania 'land grab,' 1940?

Did you ever hear of the Finland 'land grab,' 1939?

Did you ever hear of the Poland 'land grab,' 1939?


"...but expect us believe youy when your knowledge of history is so obviously flawed, PC." 

Your post is nothing if not comedy gold...

1. "...expect us believe..." 
Could that be 'expect us TO believe' ?
Who would the 'us' be? You have a tapeworm?
You folks should shake off that inordinate fear of being alone.

2. "...expect us believe youy..."
Could that be 'expect us to believe YOU...'

3. Why do I have the feeling that you are sitting there wishing you hadn't said "...your knowledge of history is so obviously flawed..."

Another post and you'll have me arrested for felony laughter!


Come up with that list of names yet?

(Probably best if you quietly slink away, tail between your legs...) 
__________________
People are most conservative on issues that they know most about. --Ann Coulter 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by *PoliticalChic*; Yesterday at 03:15 PM. 

As I said, fuckstain:  wasn't my conversation.

Don't ever wonder why you're on my ignore list, flatliner.


----------



## Father Time

Still waiting for proof that every single person Mccarthy named was a soviet operative.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Father Time said:


> Still waiting for proof that every single person Mccarthy named was a soviet operative.



Still waiting for proof that any of them were "innocents destroyed by McCarthy", which - unlike yours - is a position that's actually been stated in this thread.


----------



## Father Time

Cecilie1200 said:


> Father Time said:
> 
> 
> 
> Still waiting for proof that every single person Mccarthy named was a soviet operative.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Still waiting for proof that any of them were "innocents destroyed by McCarthy", which - unlike yours - is a position that's actually been stated in this thread.
Click to expand...


Right here.



Cecilie1200 said:


> Were you aware, Luissa, that spying on the US is illegal in the US?  Every single one of the people investigated by Senator McCarthy and his committee were, in fact, Soviet operatives.  This has been long since proven.



Yeah I realize now it was investigated, not named but I'm still waiting for proof.


----------



## Gadawg73

Cecilie1200 said:


> Father Time said:
> 
> 
> 
> Still waiting for proof that every single person Mccarthy named was a soviet operative.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Still waiting for proof that any of them were "innocents destroyed by McCarthy", which - unlike yours - is a position that's actually been stated in this thread.
Click to expand...


In America the burden is always on those that make the accusation, not the other way around.
Guilty until proven innocent was the McCarthy way and is not the American way.
Something about the LAW and The United Constitution, a document you have no respectfor and very little,if any, knowledge about.
Govern yourself accordingly or get the hell out of this country. Lady Liberty and the rest of us patriots and defenders of freedom do not want you.
Delta is ready when you are.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Cecilie1200 is simply moronic.  The goal posts set in the OP have easily been refuted, over and over and over.


----------



## Gadawg73

PoliticalChic said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> PC is like a dude I grew up with that went to school across town. He was a pretty good tailback but would never admit reality.
> We beat them my sophomore, junior and senior year. He was a flashy TB with outside and downfield speed but had a hard time running inside the tackles, especially in the 2nd half. After about a 42-7 defeat his senior year we were shaking hands after the game and he stated  "I think I am still leading the region in rushing." Not a word on the wood shed ass kicking he had taken.
> Of course he wasn't right but he thought he was.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dullard73,
> 
> Talk, talk, talk...about all the women you had to fight your way through, the games you won...yet the level of posts you offer casts the lie to all of it.
> 
> The late liberal lawyer William Kunstler said, It makes no difference anymore whether the attack on Tawana (Brawley) really happened. It doesnt disguise the fact that a lot of young black women are treated the way she said she was treated.
> 
> This argument can be dispensed with in two words: Name one.
> 
> And, using the same strategy, one can destroy another liberal myth: that Senator Joseph McCarthy "ruined thousands of innocent lives.
> 
> The easily-led brigade fails to ascertain truth, and bathes in a warm bath of  liberal mythology
> 
> The litmus test is fairly simpleand you being equally so, it should appeal to you:
> If Senator Joseph McCarthy had such a deleterious effect, and ruined so many lives, it should be effortless for you to name a half dozen or so whose lives were so ruined.
> 
> 1.	If you cannot do so, it clearly casts the lie to your premise.
> 2.	Ruin does not refer to being insulted. You must show actual damages, i.e. imprisoned and later found innocent of the charges or never working again
> 
> 
> 
> In hundreds of posts (wow, over 500), you vapid villains use insult, cast aspersions, offer vituperation...but nothing where the rubber meets the road.
> No facts, no rebuttal,...no names.
> 
> No names of innocent folks whose lives were ruined by the American hero who shone the spotlight on the cockroaches, paid as agents by the murderous Soviet Union:
> Not a thousand
> Not a hundred
> not ten- five-  not even one.
> 
> You've become my best witness, witless though you are, for the folks who read this thread, probablly starting off agreeing with the left, about McCarthy.
> 
> But now they wonder...why is it that there are no 'ruined lives'...?
> Hmmmmmmmm.....
> 
> 
> Thanks so much, Dullard.
Click to expand...


"vituperation"? damn girl, I am going to have to look that one up. You need to slow down with them big words for us country boys down here in Jawjah. They put my big dumb country red neck ass on the D line. I had a hard time remembering the plays on O much less big words like vituperation.
Was that you outside the locker room PC? Looks like someone I remember.
How fitting you quote Kuntsler.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Gadawg73 said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Father Time said:
> 
> 
> 
> Still waiting for proof that every single person Mccarthy named was a soviet operative.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Still waiting for proof that any of them were "innocents destroyed by McCarthy", which - unlike yours - is a position that's actually been stated in this thread.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> In America the burden is always on those that make the accusation, not the other way around.
> Guilty until proven innocent was the McCarthy way and is not the American way.
> Something about the LAW and The United Constitution, a document you have no respectfor and very little,if any, knowledge about.
> Govern yourself accordingly or get the hell out of this country. Lady Liberty and the rest of us patriots and defenders of freedom do not want you.
> Delta is ready when you are.
Click to expand...


You're beyond ignorant. 

You either didn't trouble yourself to read ANYTHING that I've posted or you're so brainwashed you read it and just totally failed to understand it.

Joe McCarthy was a US Senator, not a judge, not a jury.  

It came to his attention from State Department sources that there was a serious infiltration by Communist spies at US State. He started asking what anybody planned on doing about it and because he was correct and vastly understated the problem (FDR had he served out a 4th term actually intended to have Communist spies Hiss as SecState and Dexter as SecTres) he has been vilified by Progressives.  

The truth came out, McCarthy was a true Patriot and hero and those who continue to rail against his are Marxist tools still against him

You remain ignorant and you have your buddy Jake the Fake to high five you in your ignorance.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Gadawg73 said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> PC is like a dude I grew up with that went to school across town. He was a pretty good tailback but would never admit reality.
> We beat them my sophomore, junior and senior year. He was a flashy TB with outside and downfield speed but had a hard time running inside the tackles, especially in the 2nd half. After about a 42-7 defeat his senior year we were shaking hands after the game and he stated  "I think I am still leading the region in rushing." Not a word on the wood shed ass kicking he had taken.
> Of course he wasn't right but he thought he was.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dullard73,
> 
> Talk, talk, talk...about all the women you had to fight your way through, the games you won...yet the level of posts you offer casts the lie to all of it.
> 
> The late liberal lawyer William Kunstler said, It makes no difference anymore whether the attack on Tawana (Brawley) really happened. It doesnt disguise the fact that a lot of young black women are treated the way she said she was treated.
> 
> This argument can be dispensed with in two words: Name one.
> 
> And, using the same strategy, one can destroy another liberal myth: that Senator Joseph McCarthy "ruined thousands of innocent lives.
> 
> The easily-led brigade fails to ascertain truth, and bathes in a warm bath of  liberal mythology
> 
> The litmus test is fairly simpleand you being equally so, it should appeal to you:
> If Senator Joseph McCarthy had such a deleterious effect, and ruined so many lives, it should be effortless for you to name a half dozen or so whose lives were so ruined.
> 
> 1.	If you cannot do so, it clearly casts the lie to your premise.
> 2.	Ruin does not refer to being insulted. You must show actual damages, i.e. imprisoned and later found innocent of the charges or never working again
> 
> 
> 
> In hundreds of posts (wow, over 500), you vapid villains use insult, cast aspersions, offer vituperation...but nothing where the rubber meets the road.
> No facts, no rebuttal,...no names.
> 
> No names of innocent folks whose lives were ruined by the American hero who shone the spotlight on the cockroaches, paid as agents by the murderous Soviet Union:
> Not a thousand
> Not a hundred
> not ten- five-  not even one.
> 
> You've become my best witness, witless though you are, for the folks who read this thread, probablly starting off agreeing with the left, about McCarthy.
> 
> But now they wonder...why is it that there are no 'ruined lives'...?
> Hmmmmmmmm.....
> 
> 
> Thanks so much, Dullard.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "vituperation"? damn girl, I am going to have to look that one up. You need to slow down with them big words for us country boys down here in Jawjah. They put my big dumb country red neck ass on the D line. I had a hard time remembering the plays on O much less big words like vituperation.
> Was that you outside the locker room PC? Looks like someone I remember.
> How fitting you quote Kuntsler.
Click to expand...


Yet you still haven't come up with a single name. So put up or shut the fuck up


----------



## Gadawg73

CrusaderFrank said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Still waiting for proof that any of them were "innocents destroyed by McCarthy", which - unlike yours - is a position that's actually been stated in this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In America the burden is always on those that make the accusation, not the other way around.
> Guilty until proven innocent was the McCarthy way and is not the American way.
> Something about the LAW and The United Constitution, a document you have no respectfor and very little,if any, knowledge about.
> Govern yourself accordingly or get the hell out of this country. Lady Liberty and the rest of us patriots and defenders of freedom do not want you.
> Delta is ready when you are.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're beyond ignorant.
> 
> You either didn't trouble yourself to read ANYTHING that I've posted or you're so brainwashed you read it and just totally failed to understand it.
> 
> Joe McCarthy was a US Senator, not a judge, not a jury.
> 
> It came to his attention from State Department sources that there was a serious infiltration by Communist spies at US State. He started asking what anybody planned on doing about it and because he was correct and vastly understated the problem (FDR had he served out a 4th term actually intended to have Communist spies Hiss as SecState and Dexter as SecTres) he has been vilified by Progressives.
> 
> The truth came out, McCarthy was a true Patriot and hero and those who continue to rail against his are Marxist tools still against him
> 
> You remain ignorant and you have your buddy Jake the Fake to high five you in your ignorance.
Click to expand...


So the State Dept. has an investigation into spying and they wanted it on national TV?
That is true and what happened Frank but I believe you know damn well that IS NOT how you conduct an espionage investigation.
What about the HUNDREDS of others that never worked in the State Dept. Frank?
You conveintly leave those others, 95% of all named, out.
Do you believe the US Army was infiltrated with communists at the time Frank?
McCarthy claimed they were. 
But you ignore that and 95% of the evidence that he manufactured and doctored claims of communists.
You believe that just because he was right 5% of the time it was okay to accuse innocent folks the other 95% of the time.
And as a defender of liberty I oppose that. 
Sticks and stones. I have been shot at, beat up and left for dead. Bring it.


----------



## Gadawg73

CrusaderFrank said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> dullard73,
> 
> Talk, talk, talk...about all the women you had to fight your way through, the games you won...yet the level of posts you offer casts the lie to all of it.
> 
> The late liberal lawyer William Kunstler said, It makes no difference anymore whether the attack on Tawana (Brawley) really happened. It doesnt disguise the fact that a lot of young black women are treated the way she said she was treated.
> 
> This argument can be dispensed with in two words: Name one.
> 
> And, using the same strategy, one can destroy another liberal myth: that Senator Joseph McCarthy "ruined thousands of innocent lives.
> 
> The easily-led brigade fails to ascertain truth, and bathes in a warm bath of  liberal mythology
> 
> The litmus test is fairly simpleand you being equally so, it should appeal to you:
> If Senator Joseph McCarthy had such a deleterious effect, and ruined so many lives, it should be effortless for you to name a half dozen or so whose lives were so ruined.
> 
> 1.	If you cannot do so, it clearly casts the lie to your premise.
> 2.	Ruin does not refer to being insulted. You must show actual damages, i.e. imprisoned and later found innocent of the charges or never working again
> 
> 
> 
> In hundreds of posts (wow, over 500), you vapid villains use insult, cast aspersions, offer vituperation...but nothing where the rubber meets the road.
> No facts, no rebuttal,...no names.
> 
> No names of innocent folks whose lives were ruined by the American hero who shone the spotlight on the cockroaches, paid as agents by the murderous Soviet Union:
> Not a thousand
> Not a hundred
> not ten- five-  not even one.
> 
> You've become my best witness, witless though you are, for the folks who read this thread, probablly starting off agreeing with the left, about McCarthy.
> 
> But now they wonder...why is it that there are no 'ruined lives'...?
> Hmmmmmmmm.....
> 
> 
> Thanks so much, Dullard.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "vituperation"? damn girl, I am going to have to look that one up. You need to slow down with them big words for us country boys down here in Jawjah. They put my big dumb country red neck ass on the D line. I had a hard time remembering the plays on O much less big words like vituperation.
> Was that you outside the locker room PC? Looks like someone I remember.
> How fitting you quote Kuntsler.
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yet you still haven't come up with a single name. So put up or shut the fuck up
Click to expand...


At least you are not quoting a Kuntsler. 
But you might be one.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Gadawg73 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> In America the burden is always on those that make the accusation, not the other way around.
> Guilty until proven innocent was the McCarthy way and is not the American way.
> Something about the LAW and The United Constitution, a document you have no respectfor and very little,if any, knowledge about.
> Govern yourself accordingly or get the hell out of this country. Lady Liberty and the rest of us patriots and defenders of freedom do not want you.
> Delta is ready when you are.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're beyond ignorant.
> 
> You either didn't trouble yourself to read ANYTHING that I've posted or you're so brainwashed you read it and just totally failed to understand it.
> 
> Joe McCarthy was a US Senator, not a judge, not a jury.
> 
> It came to his attention from State Department sources that there was a serious infiltration by Communist spies at US State. He started asking what anybody planned on doing about it and because he was correct and vastly understated the problem (FDR had he served out a 4th term actually intended to have Communist spies Hiss as SecState and Dexter as SecTres) he has been vilified by Progressives.
> 
> The truth came out, McCarthy was a true Patriot and hero and those who continue to rail against his are Marxist tools still against him
> 
> You remain ignorant and you have your buddy Jake the Fake to high five you in your ignorance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So the State Dept. has an investigation into spying and they wanted it on national TV?
> That is true and what happened Frank but I believe you know damn well that IS NOT how you conduct an espionage investigation.
> What about the HUNDREDS of others that never worked in the State Dept. Frank?
> You conveintly leave those others, 95% of all named, out.
> Do you believe the US Army was infiltrated with communists at the time Frank?
> McCarthy claimed they were.
> But you ignore that and 95% of the evidence that he manufactured and doctored claims of communists.
> You believe that just because he was right 5% of the time it was okay to accuse innocent folks the other 95% of the time.
> And as a defender of liberty I oppose that.
> Sticks and stones. I have been shot at, beat up and left for dead. Bring it.
Click to expand...


Manufactured and doctored claims?

Why did key documents supporting McCarthy and likely validated by Venona disappear from the National Acrives in 1993?  I know McCarthy didn't take them out of there.

I believe you're a tool and denser than lead 100% of the time


----------



## Cecilie1200

Father Time said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Father Time said:
> 
> 
> 
> Still waiting for proof that every single person Mccarthy named was a soviet operative.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Still waiting for proof that any of them were "innocents destroyed by McCarthy", which - unlike yours - is a position that's actually been stated in this thread.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Right here.
> 
> 
> 
> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Were you aware, Luissa, that spying on the US is illegal in the US?  Every single one of the people investigated by Senator McCarthy and his committee were, in fact, Soviet operatives.  This has been long since proven.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah I realize now it was investigated, not named but I'm still waiting for proof.
Click to expand...


Very well, I will restate and clarify:  every person investigated by McCarthy was a genuine security risk, and most of them were genuine Soviet operatives or sympathizers (which amounted to the same thing, since sympathizers could still be and were useful idiots to the USSR).  Not a single one of them had any business having government security clearance, and it was entirely appropriate for a Senate Committee on Government Operations and its subcommittee.

Now get on the whole "innocents destroyed by McCarthy" issue.


----------



## HUGGY

CrusaderFrank said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> dullard73,
> 
> Talk, talk, talk...about all the women you had to fight your way through, the games you won...yet the level of posts you offer casts the lie to all of it.
> 
> The late liberal lawyer William Kunstler said, It makes no difference anymore whether the attack on Tawana (Brawley) really happened. It doesnt disguise the fact that a lot of young black women are treated the way she said she was treated.
> 
> This argument can be dispensed with in two words: Name one.
> 
> And, using the same strategy, one can destroy another liberal myth: that Senator Joseph McCarthy "ruined thousands of innocent lives.
> 
> The easily-led brigade fails to ascertain truth, and bathes in a warm bath of  liberal mythology
> 
> The litmus test is fairly simpleand you being equally so, it should appeal to you:
> If Senator Joseph McCarthy had such a deleterious effect, and ruined so many lives, it should be effortless for you to name a half dozen or so whose lives were so ruined.
> 
> 1.	If you cannot do so, it clearly casts the lie to your premise.
> 2.	Ruin does not refer to being insulted. You must show actual damages, i.e. imprisoned and later found innocent of the charges or never working again
> 
> 
> 
> In hundreds of posts (wow, over 500), you vapid villains use insult, cast aspersions, offer vituperation...but nothing where the rubber meets the road.
> No facts, no rebuttal,...no names.
> 
> No names of innocent folks whose lives were ruined by the American hero who shone the spotlight on the cockroaches, paid as agents by the murderous Soviet Union:
> Not a thousand
> Not a hundred
> not ten- five-  not even one.
> 
> You've become my best witness, witless though you are, for the folks who read this thread, probablly starting off agreeing with the left, about McCarthy.
> 
> But now they wonder...why is it that there are no 'ruined lives'...?
> Hmmmmmmmm.....
> 
> 
> Thanks so much, Dullard.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "vituperation"? damn girl, I am going to have to look that one up. You need to slow down with them big words for us country boys down here in Jawjah. They put my big dumb country red neck ass on the D line. I had a hard time remembering the plays on O much less big words like vituperation.
> Was that you outside the locker room PC? Looks like someone I remember.
> How fitting you quote Kuntsler.
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yet you still haven't come up with a single name. So put up or shut the fuck up
Click to expand...


Well...that settles it doesn't it!!!!  McCarthy was obviously an American hero!!!!


----------



## PoliticalChic

Cecilie1200 said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> PC has still lost this OP.
> 
> It's not about the USSR's imperialist ways.
> 
> It's about how Joe McCarthy was not an American hero, but rather the only conclusion that can be made after her presentation, an American zero.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I love it, Stinky...
> 
> You're like the guy getting pummeled, and he's shouting "Well, have you had enough yet???" as he wipes the blood off his chin.
> 
> Funny,... juvenile, but funny.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I have this image in my head of the Black Knight from "Monty Python and the Holy Grail".
> 
> Honestly, I'm ready to prosecute these guys for assault, for making me laugh so hard I nearly have a hernia.
Click to expand...


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNKSzmM44gE]YouTube - Monty Python Black Night[/ame]


----------



## Father Time

Cecilie1200 said:


> Father Time said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Still waiting for proof that any of them were "innocents destroyed by McCarthy", which - unlike yours - is a position that's actually been stated in this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Right here.
> 
> 
> 
> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Were you aware, Luissa, that spying on the US is illegal in the US?  Every single one of the people investigated by Senator McCarthy and his committee were, in fact, Soviet operatives.  This has been long since proven.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah I realize now it was investigated, not named but I'm still waiting for proof.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Very well, I will restate and clarify:  every person investigated by McCarthy was a genuine security risk, and most of them were genuine Soviet operatives or sympathizers (which amounted to the same thing, since sympathizers could still be and were useful idiots to the USSR).  Not a single one of them had any business having government security clearance, and it was entirely appropriate for a Senate Committee on Government Operations and its subcommittee.
> 
> Now get on the whole "innocents destroyed by McCarthy" issue.
Click to expand...


I don't think I've ever claimed such, and this thread is getting boring to watch so I'm probably going to amskray. Thanks for clarifying though.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

HUGGY said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> "vituperation"? damn girl, I am going to have to look that one up. You need to slow down with them big words for us country boys down here in Jawjah. They put my big dumb country red neck ass on the D line. I had a hard time remembering the plays on O much less big words like vituperation.
> Was that you outside the locker room PC? Looks like someone I remember.
> How fitting you quote Kuntsler.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yet you still haven't come up with a single name. So put up or shut the fuck up
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well...that settles it doesn't it!!!!  McCarthy was obviously an American hero!!!!
Click to expand...


But don't you have to take a moment to reconsider when the central part of your argument is: McCarthy lied and ruined lives, and you can't come up with a single life ruined?


----------



## Gadawg73

CrusaderFrank said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yet you still haven't come up with a single name. So put up or shut the fuck up
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well...that settles it doesn't it!!!!  McCarthy was obviously an American hero!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But don't you have to take a moment to reconsider when the central part of your argument is: McCarthy lied and ruined lives, and you can't come up with a single life ruined?
Click to expand...


Owen Lattimore. His life was ruined by McCarthy. Along with all of his staff, associates, friends and many of his family.
And hundreds of others.
You know it.
Called Red Scare witch hunt. Guilty until proven innocent.
Frank makes the case that Joe was a great American investigator rooting communists out of society.
If so, ole Joe was not very good at it. Most of those convicted were later found to be innocent and let go.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Gadawg73 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well...that settles it doesn't it!!!!  McCarthy was obviously an American hero!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But don't you have to take a moment to reconsider when the central part of your argument is: McCarthy lied and ruined lives, and you can't come up with a single life ruined?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Owen Lattimore. His life was ruined by McCarthy. Along with all of his staff, associates, friends and many of his family.
> And hundreds of others.
> You know it.
> Called Red Scare witch hunt. Guilty until proven innocent.
> Frank makes the case that Joe was a great American investigator rooting communists out of society.
> If so, ole Joe was not very good at it. Most of those convicted were later found to be innocent and let go.
Click to expand...


Owen Lattimore was GUILTY, you idiot.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Gadawg73 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well...that settles it doesn't it!!!!  McCarthy was obviously an American hero!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But don't you have to take a moment to reconsider when the central part of your argument is: McCarthy lied and ruined lives, and you can't come up with a single life ruined?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Owen Lattimore. His life was ruined by McCarthy. Along with all of his staff, associates, friends and many of his family.
> And hundreds of others.
> You know it.
> Called Red Scare witch hunt. Guilty until proven innocent.
> Frank makes the case that Joe was a great American investigator rooting communists out of society.
> If so, ole Joe was not very good at it. Most of those convicted were later found to be innocent and let go.
Click to expand...


Wow. Thanks for that, I'm glad you brought him up.

There's a whole chapter devoted to Owen Lattimore in "Blacklisted by History" and I'll share with you some of the highlights.

Overall, McCarthy fingered Lattimore as a key Soviet agent but then backed off. McCarthy claimed Owen was responsible for the US State Department pro ChiCom stance at a time when Chiang Kai-shek needed the assistance of the USA. The Tydings Hearings apparently exonerated Owen including a Tydings implication that the FBI agreed that Owen was beyond reproach.  However, much like everything else around McCarthey, history and facts have not been kind to Progressive world view.

While Owen is not mentioned in Venona Cables as an asset, here's what we discover.

First, Tydings outright lied about the FBI's and Hoovers stance on Lattimore. In a recently released memo from April 1950, Lou Nichols states, "he couldn't understand what had come over Sen Tydings, as he recalled very distinctly that the Director had been asked the question as to how he would regard Lattimore's loyalty, and the *Director stated that if her were on the Loyalty Board he would question it; further the Director had also regarded Lattimore as a security risk*

What type of man was Progressive Hero Owen Lattimore?  Apparently, according to Evans he "Seldom met a Red atrocity he couldn't like or find an excuse for."  While touring the notorious Magadan-Kolyma Siberian Death Camp he remarked "instead of gin, sin and brawling of an old fashioned gold rush, extensive greenhouses growing tomatoes, cucumbers and melons to make sure hardy miners get enough vitamins" 

Here's what Wikipedia said of Lattimore's workers paradise

"*The Arctic Death Camps*

In 1937, at the height of the Purges, Stalin ordered an intensification of the hardships prisoners were forced to endure.[4] Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn quotes camp commander Naftaly Frenkel as establishing the new law of the Archipelago: "We have to squeeze everything out of a prisoner in the first three months &#8212; after that we don't need him anymore." [5] The system of hard labor and minimal or no food reduced most prisoners to helpless "goners" (dokhodyaga, in Russian).

Robert Conquest, Yevgenia Ginzburg, Anne Applebaum, Adam Hochschild and others (see bibliography) describe the Kolyma camps in some detail. The suffering of the prisoners was exacerbated by the presence of ordinary criminals, who terrorized the "political" prisoners. Death in the Kolyma camps came in many forms, including: overwork, starvation, malnutrition, mining accidents, exposure, murder at the hands of criminals, and beatings at the hands of guards. A director of the Sevvostlag complex of camps, colonel Sergey Garanin is said to have personally shot whole brigades of prisoners for not fulfilling their daily quotas in the late 1930s.[6] Escape was difficult, owing to the climate and physical isolation of the region, but some still attempted it. Escapees, if caught, were often torn to shreds by camp guard dogs. The use of torture as punishment was also common. *Soviet dissident historian Roy Medvedev has compared the conditions in the Kolyma camps to Auschwitz*."

Kolyma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also, a May 1941 FBI custodial detention notice obtained for Owen under FOIA and reproduced in  "Blacklisted" describes the "Professors 'nationalistic tenancies' as 'Communist'"

Yes, Owen Lattimore was not mentioned in Venona, but Hoover didn't trust him and he sure loved everything about the USSR and the Chicoms.


----------



## Gadawg73

CrusaderFrank said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> But don't you have to take a moment to reconsider when the central part of your argument is: McCarthy lied and ruined lives, and you can't come up with a single life ruined?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Owen Lattimore. His life was ruined by McCarthy. Along with all of his staff, associates, friends and many of his family.
> And hundreds of others.
> You know it.
> Called Red Scare witch hunt. Guilty until proven innocent.
> Frank makes the case that Joe was a great American investigator rooting communists out of society.
> If so, ole Joe was not very good at it. Most of those convicted were later found to be innocent and let go.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wow. Thanks for that, I'm glad you brought him up.
> 
> There's a whole chapter devoted to Owen Lattimore in "Blacklisted by History" and I'll share with you some of the highlights.
> 
> Overall, McCarthy fingered Lattimore as a key Soviet agent but then backed off. McCarthy claimed Owen was responsible for the US State Department pro ChiCom stance at a time when Chiang Kai-shek needed the assistance of the USA. The Tydings Hearings apparently exonerated Owen including a Tydings implication that the FBI agreed that Owen was beyond reproach.  However, Much like everything else around McCarthey, history and facts have not been kind to Progressive world view.
> 
> While Owen is not mentioned in Venona Cables as an asset, here's what we discover.
> 
> First, Tydings outright lied about the FBI's and Hoovers stance on Lattimore. In a recently released memo from April 1950, Lou Nichols states, "he couldn't understand what had come over Sen Tydings, as he recalled very distinctly that the Director had been asked the question as to how he would regard Lattimore's loyalty, and the *Director stated that if her were on the Loyalty Board he would question it; further the Director had also regarded Lattimore as a security risk*
> 
> What type of man was Progressive Hero Owen Lattimore.  Apparently, according to Evans he "Seldom met a Red atrocity he couldn't like or find an excuse for."  While touring the notorious Magadan-Kolyma Siberian Death Camp he remarked "instead of gin, sin and brawling of an old fashioned gold rush, extensive greenhouses growing tomatoes, cucumbers and melons to make syre hardy miners get enough vitamins"
> 
> Here's what Wikipedia said of Lattimore's workers paradise
> 
> "*The Arctic Death Camps*
> 
> In 1937, at the height of the Purges, Stalin ordered an intensification of the hardships prisoners were forced to endure.[4] Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn quotes camp commander Naftaly Frenkel as establishing the new law of the Archipelago: "We have to squeeze everything out of a prisoner in the first three months  after that we don't need him anymore." [5] The system of hard labor and minimal or no food reduced most prisoners to helpless "goners" (dokhodyaga, in Russian).
> 
> Robert Conquest, Yevgenia Ginzburg, Anne Applebaum, Adam Hochschild and others (see bibliography) describe the Kolyma camps in some detail. The suffering of the prisoners was exacerbated by the presence of ordinary criminals, who terrorized the "political" prisoners. Death in the Kolyma camps came in many forms, including: overwork, starvation, malnutrition, mining accidents, exposure, murder at the hands of criminals, and beatings at the hands of guards. A director of the Sevvostlag complex of camps, colonel Sergey Garanin is said to have personally shot whole brigades of prisoners for not fulfilling their daily quotas in the late 1930s.[6] Escape was difficult, owing to the climate and physical isolation of the region, but some still attempted it. Escapees, if caught, were often torn to shreds by camp guard dogs. The use of torture as punishment was also common. *Soviet dissident historian Roy Medvedev has compared the conditions in the Kolyma camps to Auschwitz*."
> 
> Kolyma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Also, a May 1941 FBI custodial detention notice obtained for Owen under FOIA and reproduced in  "Blacklisted" describes the "Professors 'nationalistic tenancies' as 'Communist'"
> 
> Yes, Owen Lattimore was not mentioned in Venona, but Hoover didn't trust him and he sure loved everything about the USSR and the Chicoms.
Click to expand...


You claimed we could not name anyone.
Lattimore was no communist spy, he was imprisoned on false evidence, his life was ruined and you claim it is all OK because "Hoover didn't trust him".

You need to move to Iran Frank. They do things your way over there.


----------



## Gadawg73

Cecilie1200 said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> But don't you have to take a moment to reconsider when the central part of your argument is: McCarthy lied and ruined lives, and you can't come up with a single life ruined?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Owen Lattimore. His life was ruined by McCarthy. Along with all of his staff, associates, friends and many of his family.
> And hundreds of others.
> You know it.
> Called Red Scare witch hunt. Guilty until proven innocent.
> Frank makes the case that Joe was a great American investigator rooting communists out of society.
> If so, ole Joe was not very good at it. Most of those convicted were later found to be innocent and let go.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Owen Lattimore was GUILTY, you idiot.
Click to expand...


All of his convictions were overturned.
You are not very intelligent. Stupid is what comes to mind.
The entire case was a fraud against him, witnesses lied and  he was let go.
The evidence against him was such a fraud he never was even charged with being a communist.
He was convicted of perjury!
DUMB ASS.
Please do not vote and if they call you for jury duty please state the obvious and inform them you are severely mentally handicapped.


----------



## Gadawg73

What is truly amazing here are the folks that ARETOTALLY IGNORANT and have no clue as to the legal system, laws and the very foundation of this country in criminal proceedings:

YOU ARE PRESUMED INNOCENT
YOU ARE INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY
YOU DO NOT HAVE TO PROVE YOU ARE INNOCENT IN ANY COURT IN AMERICA
THE ACCUSER, THE PROSECUTOR, ALWAYS HAS TO PROVE THEIR CASE
AN ACCUSED NEVER HAS TO TESIFY WHEN CHARGED
AN ACCUSATION IS NEVER EVIDENCE
WHY? THE DEFENDANT AND CHARGED IS ALWAYS PRESUMED INNOCENT
THE PRESUMPTION OF INNOCENCE IS THE FOUNDATION OF AMERICAN JUDICIAL SYSTEM.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Gadawg73 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Owen Lattimore. His life was ruined by McCarthy. Along with all of his staff, associates, friends and many of his family.
> And hundreds of others.
> You know it.
> Called Red Scare witch hunt. Guilty until proven innocent.
> Frank makes the case that Joe was a great American investigator rooting communists out of society.
> If so, ole Joe was not very good at it. Most of those convicted were later found to be innocent and let go.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow. Thanks for that, I'm glad you brought him up.
> 
> There's a whole chapter devoted to Owen Lattimore in "Blacklisted by History" and I'll share with you some of the highlights.
> 
> Overall, McCarthy fingered Lattimore as a key Soviet agent but then backed off. McCarthy claimed Owen was responsible for the US State Department pro ChiCom stance at a time when Chiang Kai-shek needed the assistance of the USA. The Tydings Hearings apparently exonerated Owen including a Tydings implication that the FBI agreed that Owen was beyond reproach.  However, Much like everything else around McCarthey, history and facts have not been kind to Progressive world view.
> 
> While Owen is not mentioned in Venona Cables as an asset, here's what we discover.
> 
> First, Tydings outright lied about the FBI's and Hoovers stance on Lattimore. In a recently released memo from April 1950, Lou Nichols states, "he couldn't understand what had come over Sen Tydings, as he recalled very distinctly that the Director had been asked the question as to how he would regard Lattimore's loyalty, and the *Director stated that if her were on the Loyalty Board he would question it; further the Director had also regarded Lattimore as a security risk*
> 
> What type of man was Progressive Hero Owen Lattimore.  Apparently, according to Evans he "Seldom met a Red atrocity he couldn't like or find an excuse for."  While touring the notorious Magadan-Kolyma Siberian Death Camp he remarked "instead of gin, sin and brawling of an old fashioned gold rush, extensive greenhouses growing tomatoes, cucumbers and melons to make syre hardy miners get enough vitamins"
> 
> Here's what Wikipedia said of Lattimore's workers paradise
> 
> "*The Arctic Death Camps*
> 
> In 1937, at the height of the Purges, Stalin ordered an intensification of the hardships prisoners were forced to endure.[4] Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn quotes camp commander Naftaly Frenkel as establishing the new law of the Archipelago: "We have to squeeze everything out of a prisoner in the first three months  after that we don't need him anymore." [5] The system of hard labor and minimal or no food reduced most prisoners to helpless "goners" (dokhodyaga, in Russian).
> 
> Robert Conquest, Yevgenia Ginzburg, Anne Applebaum, Adam Hochschild and others (see bibliography) describe the Kolyma camps in some detail. The suffering of the prisoners was exacerbated by the presence of ordinary criminals, who terrorized the "political" prisoners. Death in the Kolyma camps came in many forms, including: overwork, starvation, malnutrition, mining accidents, exposure, murder at the hands of criminals, and beatings at the hands of guards. A director of the Sevvostlag complex of camps, colonel Sergey Garanin is said to have personally shot whole brigades of prisoners for not fulfilling their daily quotas in the late 1930s.[6] Escape was difficult, owing to the climate and physical isolation of the region, but some still attempted it. Escapees, if caught, were often torn to shreds by camp guard dogs. The use of torture as punishment was also common. *Soviet dissident historian Roy Medvedev has compared the conditions in the Kolyma camps to Auschwitz*."
> 
> Kolyma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Also, a May 1941 FBI custodial detention notice obtained for Owen under FOIA and reproduced in  "Blacklisted" describes the "Professors 'nationalistic tenancies' as 'Communist'"
> 
> Yes, Owen Lattimore was not mentioned in Venona, but Hoover didn't trust him and he sure loved everything about the USSR and the Chicoms.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You claimed we could not name anyone.
> Lattimore was no communist spy, he was imprisoned on false evidence, his life was ruined and you claim it is all OK because "Hoover didn't trust him".
> 
> You need to move to Iran Frank. They do things your way over there.
Click to expand...


We claimed you couldn't name anyone INNOCENT, and you still haven't, because Lattimore was GUILTY.  I would also argue the whole "life was ruined" thing, except that I don't care if it was or not, because he deserved it.


----------



## Gadawg73

Cecilie1200 said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow. Thanks for that, I'm glad you brought him up.
> 
> There's a whole chapter devoted to Owen Lattimore in "Blacklisted by History" and I'll share with you some of the highlights.
> 
> Overall, McCarthy fingered Lattimore as a key Soviet agent but then backed off. McCarthy claimed Owen was responsible for the US State Department pro ChiCom stance at a time when Chiang Kai-shek needed the assistance of the USA. The Tydings Hearings apparently exonerated Owen including a Tydings implication that the FBI agreed that Owen was beyond reproach.  However, Much like everything else around McCarthey, history and facts have not been kind to Progressive world view.
> 
> While Owen is not mentioned in Venona Cables as an asset, here's what we discover.
> 
> First, Tydings outright lied about the FBI's and Hoovers stance on Lattimore. In a recently released memo from April 1950, Lou Nichols states, "he couldn't understand what had come over Sen Tydings, as he recalled very distinctly that the Director had been asked the question as to how he would regard Lattimore's loyalty, and the *Director stated that if her were on the Loyalty Board he would question it; further the Director had also regarded Lattimore as a security risk*
> 
> What type of man was Progressive Hero Owen Lattimore.  Apparently, according to Evans he "Seldom met a Red atrocity he couldn't like or find an excuse for."  While touring the notorious Magadan-Kolyma Siberian Death Camp he remarked "instead of gin, sin and brawling of an old fashioned gold rush, extensive greenhouses growing tomatoes, cucumbers and melons to make syre hardy miners get enough vitamins"
> 
> Here's what Wikipedia said of Lattimore's workers paradise
> 
> "*The Arctic Death Camps*
> 
> In 1937, at the height of the Purges, Stalin ordered an intensification of the hardships prisoners were forced to endure.[4] Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn quotes camp commander Naftaly Frenkel as establishing the new law of the Archipelago: "We have to squeeze everything out of a prisoner in the first three months &#8212; after that we don't need him anymore." [5] The system of hard labor and minimal or no food reduced most prisoners to helpless "goners" (dokhodyaga, in Russian).
> 
> Robert Conquest, Yevgenia Ginzburg, Anne Applebaum, Adam Hochschild and others (see bibliography) describe the Kolyma camps in some detail. The suffering of the prisoners was exacerbated by the presence of ordinary criminals, who terrorized the "political" prisoners. Death in the Kolyma camps came in many forms, including: overwork, starvation, malnutrition, mining accidents, exposure, murder at the hands of criminals, and beatings at the hands of guards. A director of the Sevvostlag complex of camps, colonel Sergey Garanin is said to have personally shot whole brigades of prisoners for not fulfilling their daily quotas in the late 1930s.[6] Escape was difficult, owing to the climate and physical isolation of the region, but some still attempted it. Escapees, if caught, were often torn to shreds by camp guard dogs. The use of torture as punishment was also common. *Soviet dissident historian Roy Medvedev has compared the conditions in the Kolyma camps to Auschwitz*."
> 
> Kolyma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Also, a May 1941 FBI custodial detention notice obtained for Owen under FOIA and reproduced in  "Blacklisted" describes the "Professors 'nationalistic tenancies' as 'Communist'"
> 
> Yes, Owen Lattimore was not mentioned in Venona, but Hoover didn't trust him and he sure loved everything about the USSR and the Chicoms.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You claimed we could not name anyone.
> Lattimore was no communist spy, he was imprisoned on false evidence, his life was ruined and you claim it is all OK because "Hoover didn't trust him".
> 
> You need to move to Iran Frank. They do things your way over there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We claimed you couldn't name anyone INNOCENT, and you still haven't, because Lattimore was GUILTY.  I would also argue the whole "life was ruined" thing, except that I don't care if it was or not, because he deserved it.
Click to expand...



A Republican Judge overturned all of those bogus perjury convictions.
You are a moron.
Lattimore was never convicted of being a spy. 
A 5th grader could Shephardize that case.
Stick to tiddly winks. The legal stuff is 20 feet over your head.
"He deserved it" 
An innocent man that a Republican Judge letsout of prison because of afruaulent case and you state "he deserved it".
Please do not vote or participate in anything involving decisions of others. You are incapable of understanding basic American law, principles and reason.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Gadawg73 said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Owen Lattimore. His life was ruined by McCarthy. Along with all of his staff, associates, friends and many of his family.
> And hundreds of others.
> You know it.
> Called Red Scare witch hunt. Guilty until proven innocent.
> Frank makes the case that Joe was a great American investigator rooting communists out of society.
> If so, ole Joe was not very good at it. Most of those convicted were later found to be innocent and let go.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Owen Lattimore was GUILTY, you idiot.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> All of his convictions were overturned.
> You are not very intelligent. Stupid is what comes to mind.
> The entire case was a fraud against him, witnesses lied and  he was let go.
> The evidence against him was such a fraud he never was even charged with being a communist.
> He was convicted of perjury!
> DUMB ASS.
> Please do not vote and if they call you for jury duty please state the obvious and inform them you are severely mentally handicapped.
Click to expand...


Yeah, and OJ is still looking for the real killer.

There's a difference between "guilty" and "convicted".  "Guilty" means you fucking did it.  "Convicted" means someone actually got through the haze of people protecting you and managed to punish you for what you fucking did.

Owen Lattimore was guilty.  The case was not a fraud, and anyone who actually read the evidence - meaning not you, apparently - knew it wasn't a fraud.  He was guilty.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Gadawg73 said:


> What is truly amazing here are the folks that ARETOTALLY IGNORANT and have no clue as to the legal system, laws and the very foundation of this country in criminal proceedings:
> 
> YOU ARE PRESUMED INNOCENT
> YOU ARE INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY
> YOU DO NOT HAVE TO PROVE YOU ARE INNOCENT IN ANY COURT IN AMERICA
> THE ACCUSER, THE PROSECUTOR, ALWAYS HAS TO PROVE THEIR CASE
> AN ACCUSED NEVER HAS TO TESIFY WHEN CHARGED
> AN ACCUSATION IS NEVER EVIDENCE
> WHY? THE DEFENDANT AND CHARGED IS ALWAYS PRESUMED INNOCENT
> THE PRESUMPTION OF INNOCENCE IS THE FOUNDATION OF AMERICAN JUDICIAL SYSTEM.



YOU are fucking ignorant if you think "presumed innocent" means "we don't investigate charges of wrongdoing against you to find out if you're guilty".  Aside from the fact that Owen Lattimore was as guilty as the day is long, anyone who held that much influence and had that many accusations against him for that long a time needed to be investigated.

Next you'll be telling us how the cops shouldn't have investigated Charles Manson because that was "presuming his guilt".  Dumbass.


----------



## PoliticalChic

Cecilie1200 said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow. Thanks for that, I'm glad you brought him up.
> 
> There's a whole chapter devoted to Owen Lattimore in "Blacklisted by History" and I'll share with you some of the highlights.
> 
> Overall, McCarthy fingered Lattimore as a key Soviet agent but then backed off. McCarthy claimed Owen was responsible for the US State Department pro ChiCom stance at a time when Chiang Kai-shek needed the assistance of the USA. The Tydings Hearings apparently exonerated Owen including a Tydings implication that the FBI agreed that Owen was beyond reproach.  However, Much like everything else around McCarthey, history and facts have not been kind to Progressive world view.
> 
> While Owen is not mentioned in Venona Cables as an asset, here's what we discover.
> 
> First, Tydings outright lied about the FBI's and Hoovers stance on Lattimore. In a recently released memo from April 1950, Lou Nichols states, "he couldn't understand what had come over Sen Tydings, as he recalled very distinctly that the Director had been asked the question as to how he would regard Lattimore's loyalty, and the *Director stated that if her were on the Loyalty Board he would question it; further the Director had also regarded Lattimore as a security risk*
> 
> What type of man was Progressive Hero Owen Lattimore.  Apparently, according to Evans he "Seldom met a Red atrocity he couldn't like or find an excuse for."  While touring the notorious Magadan-Kolyma Siberian Death Camp he remarked "instead of gin, sin and brawling of an old fashioned gold rush, extensive greenhouses growing tomatoes, cucumbers and melons to make syre hardy miners get enough vitamins"
> 
> Here's what Wikipedia said of Lattimore's workers paradise
> 
> "*The Arctic Death Camps*
> 
> In 1937, at the height of the Purges, Stalin ordered an intensification of the hardships prisoners were forced to endure.[4] Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn quotes camp commander Naftaly Frenkel as establishing the new law of the Archipelago: "We have to squeeze everything out of a prisoner in the first three months  after that we don't need him anymore." [5] The system of hard labor and minimal or no food reduced most prisoners to helpless "goners" (dokhodyaga, in Russian).
> 
> Robert Conquest, Yevgenia Ginzburg, Anne Applebaum, Adam Hochschild and others (see bibliography) describe the Kolyma camps in some detail. The suffering of the prisoners was exacerbated by the presence of ordinary criminals, who terrorized the "political" prisoners. Death in the Kolyma camps came in many forms, including: overwork, starvation, malnutrition, mining accidents, exposure, murder at the hands of criminals, and beatings at the hands of guards. A director of the Sevvostlag complex of camps, colonel Sergey Garanin is said to have personally shot whole brigades of prisoners for not fulfilling their daily quotas in the late 1930s.[6] Escape was difficult, owing to the climate and physical isolation of the region, but some still attempted it. Escapees, if caught, were often torn to shreds by camp guard dogs. The use of torture as punishment was also common. *Soviet dissident historian Roy Medvedev has compared the conditions in the Kolyma camps to Auschwitz*."
> 
> Kolyma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Also, a May 1941 FBI custodial detention notice obtained for Owen under FOIA and reproduced in  "Blacklisted" describes the "Professors 'nationalistic tenancies' as 'Communist'"
> 
> Yes, Owen Lattimore was not mentioned in Venona, but Hoover didn't trust him and he sure loved everything about the USSR and the Chicoms.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You claimed we could not name anyone.
> Lattimore was no communist spy, he was imprisoned on false evidence, his life was ruined and you claim it is all OK because "Hoover didn't trust him".
> 
> You need to move to Iran Frank. They do things your way over there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We claimed you couldn't name anyone INNOCENT, and you still haven't, because Lattimore was GUILTY.  I would also argue the whole "life was ruined" thing, except that I don't care if it was or not, because he deserved it.
Click to expand...


For the ADD crew:

	Lattimore had conferred (during the Hitler-Stalin pact) with the Soviet ambassador about Lattimore's upcoming assignment as President Roosevelt's adviser to Chiang-Kai-Shek  then trying to fend off the Communist revolution in his country.
	Credible testimony revealed "five episodes" wherein Lattimore  within the Politburo of the Communist Party  "participated as a full participant in the conspiracy."
	A former brigadier-general in the Soviet military intelligence testified to having been told that "Lattimore was one of our men."
	On page 218 of the McCarran committee's voluminous report of its year-long investigation, this bottom line: "[T]he subcommittee can come to no other conclusion but that Lattimore was for some time beginning in the 1930s a conscious, articulate instrument of the Soviet conspiracy."
The documented truth about the McCarthy investigations

Further, the losers try to use Lattimore, who lost not one single paycheck, as Johns Hopkins continued to pay him, and Harvard picked him up as a lecturer...

This is exactly the situation that our side has explained to Dimwit and Company numerous times:
Not only was no innocent 'ruined,' but they were often rewarded!

The only one ruined was the American hero, Senator Joseph McCarthy.

And Coulter sums it up succinctly:
"Claiming to have been blacklisted is Hollywoods version of coming over on the Mayflower."

And louts like Dimwit and Co. continue to wring their hands for these erroneously rewarded Soviet agents.


----------



## JakeStarkey

For His sake, shut up, PC and CC, you morons.  By your standards, Ollie North is a convicted turd.  You both have lost this OP on the inability to argue and the willingness to have a collective brain fart.

You are absolute vote getters for the candidates you oppose.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Gadawg73 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Owen Lattimore. His life was ruined by McCarthy. Along with all of his staff, associates, friends and many of his family.
> And hundreds of others.
> You know it.
> Called Red Scare witch hunt. Guilty until proven innocent.
> Frank makes the case that Joe was a great American investigator rooting communists out of society.
> If so, ole Joe was not very good at it. Most of those convicted were later found to be innocent and let go.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow. Thanks for that, I'm glad you brought him up.
> 
> There's a whole chapter devoted to Owen Lattimore in "Blacklisted by History" and I'll share with you some of the highlights.
> 
> Overall, McCarthy fingered Lattimore as a key Soviet agent but then backed off. McCarthy claimed Owen was responsible for the US State Department pro ChiCom stance at a time when Chiang Kai-shek needed the assistance of the USA. The Tydings Hearings apparently exonerated Owen including a Tydings implication that the FBI agreed that Owen was beyond reproach.  However, Much like everything else around McCarthey, history and facts have not been kind to Progressive world view.
> 
> While Owen is not mentioned in Venona Cables as an asset, here's what we discover.
> 
> First, Tydings outright lied about the FBI's and Hoovers stance on Lattimore. In a recently released memo from April 1950, Lou Nichols states, "he couldn't understand what had come over Sen Tydings, as he recalled very distinctly that the Director had been asked the question as to how he would regard Lattimore's loyalty, and the *Director stated that if her were on the Loyalty Board he would question it; further the Director had also regarded Lattimore as a security risk*
> 
> What type of man was Progressive Hero Owen Lattimore.  Apparently, according to Evans he "Seldom met a Red atrocity he couldn't like or find an excuse for."  While touring the notorious Magadan-Kolyma Siberian Death Camp he remarked "instead of gin, sin and brawling of an old fashioned gold rush, extensive greenhouses growing tomatoes, cucumbers and melons to make syre hardy miners get enough vitamins"
> 
> Here's what Wikipedia said of Lattimore's workers paradise
> 
> "*The Arctic Death Camps*
> 
> In 1937, at the height of the Purges, Stalin ordered an intensification of the hardships prisoners were forced to endure.[4] Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn quotes camp commander Naftaly Frenkel as establishing the new law of the Archipelago: "We have to squeeze everything out of a prisoner in the first three months  after that we don't need him anymore." [5] The system of hard labor and minimal or no food reduced most prisoners to helpless "goners" (dokhodyaga, in Russian).
> 
> Robert Conquest, Yevgenia Ginzburg, Anne Applebaum, Adam Hochschild and others (see bibliography) describe the Kolyma camps in some detail. The suffering of the prisoners was exacerbated by the presence of ordinary criminals, who terrorized the "political" prisoners. Death in the Kolyma camps came in many forms, including: overwork, starvation, malnutrition, mining accidents, exposure, murder at the hands of criminals, and beatings at the hands of guards. A director of the Sevvostlag complex of camps, colonel Sergey Garanin is said to have personally shot whole brigades of prisoners for not fulfilling their daily quotas in the late 1930s.[6] Escape was difficult, owing to the climate and physical isolation of the region, but some still attempted it. Escapees, if caught, were often torn to shreds by camp guard dogs. The use of torture as punishment was also common. *Soviet dissident historian Roy Medvedev has compared the conditions in the Kolyma camps to Auschwitz*."
> 
> Kolyma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Also, a May 1941 FBI custodial detention notice obtained for Owen under FOIA and reproduced in  "Blacklisted" describes the "Professors 'nationalistic tenancies' as 'Communist'"
> 
> Yes, Owen Lattimore was not mentioned in Venona, but Hoover didn't trust him and he sure loved everything about the USSR and the Chicoms.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You claimed we could not name anyone.
> Lattimore was no communist spy, he was imprisoned on false evidence, his life was ruined and you claim it is all OK because "Hoover didn't trust him".
> 
> You need to move to Iran Frank. They do things your way over there.
Click to expand...


Everyone knows that American Marxists known as Porgressives have lied about everything to do with McCarthy.

Lattimore was a spy, Lattimore was a Soviet sock puppet.

Lattimore toured a placed compared with Auschwitz and came back raving about how nice it was.

Lattmire is a tool, what's your excuse?


----------



## uscitizen

Frank is still defending Mccarthy?

Just wow.
He IS Frank burns.
I'd rather be dead than red.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

JakeStarkey said:


> For His sake, shut up, PC and CC, you morons.  By your standards, Ollie North is a convicted turd.  You both have lost this OP on the inability to argue and the willingness to have a collective brain fart.
> 
> You are absolute vote getters for the candidates you oppose.



Hey Jake, the grown ups are talking. Why don't you go play with your xbox?


----------



## CrusaderFrank

uscitizen said:


> Frank is still defending Mccarthy?
> 
> Just wow.
> He IS Frank burns.
> I'd rather be dead than red.



Did the batteries on your GameBoy run out?


----------



## uscitizen

CrusaderFrank said:


> uscitizen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Frank is still defending Mccarthy?
> 
> Just wow.
> He IS Frank burns.
> I'd rather be dead than red.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did the batteries on your GameBoy run out?
Click to expand...


Man that is about a pitiful as a dead rat hanging on a barbed wire fence.


But again very Frank Burnsish...


----------



## PoliticalChic

CrusaderFrank said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow. Thanks for that, I'm glad you brought him up.
> 
> There's a whole chapter devoted to Owen Lattimore in "Blacklisted by History" and I'll share with you some of the highlights.
> 
> Overall, McCarthy fingered Lattimore as a key Soviet agent but then backed off. McCarthy claimed Owen was responsible for the US State Department pro ChiCom stance at a time when Chiang Kai-shek needed the assistance of the USA. The Tydings Hearings apparently exonerated Owen including a Tydings implication that the FBI agreed that Owen was beyond reproach.  However, Much like everything else around McCarthey, history and facts have not been kind to Progressive world view.
> 
> While Owen is not mentioned in Venona Cables as an asset, here's what we discover.
> 
> First, Tydings outright lied about the FBI's and Hoovers stance on Lattimore. In a recently released memo from April 1950, Lou Nichols states, "he couldn't understand what had come over Sen Tydings, as he recalled very distinctly that the Director had been asked the question as to how he would regard Lattimore's loyalty, and the *Director stated that if her were on the Loyalty Board he would question it; further the Director had also regarded Lattimore as a security risk*
> 
> What type of man was Progressive Hero Owen Lattimore.  Apparently, according to Evans he "Seldom met a Red atrocity he couldn't like or find an excuse for."  While touring the notorious Magadan-Kolyma Siberian Death Camp he remarked "instead of gin, sin and brawling of an old fashioned gold rush, extensive greenhouses growing tomatoes, cucumbers and melons to make syre hardy miners get enough vitamins"
> 
> Here's what Wikipedia said of Lattimore's workers paradise
> 
> "*The Arctic Death Camps*
> 
> In 1937, at the height of the Purges, Stalin ordered an intensification of the hardships prisoners were forced to endure.[4] Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn quotes camp commander Naftaly Frenkel as establishing the new law of the Archipelago: "We have to squeeze everything out of a prisoner in the first three months  after that we don't need him anymore." [5] The system of hard labor and minimal or no food reduced most prisoners to helpless "goners" (dokhodyaga, in Russian).
> 
> Robert Conquest, Yevgenia Ginzburg, Anne Applebaum, Adam Hochschild and others (see bibliography) describe the Kolyma camps in some detail. The suffering of the prisoners was exacerbated by the presence of ordinary criminals, who terrorized the "political" prisoners. Death in the Kolyma camps came in many forms, including: overwork, starvation, malnutrition, mining accidents, exposure, murder at the hands of criminals, and beatings at the hands of guards. A director of the Sevvostlag complex of camps, colonel Sergey Garanin is said to have personally shot whole brigades of prisoners for not fulfilling their daily quotas in the late 1930s.[6] Escape was difficult, owing to the climate and physical isolation of the region, but some still attempted it. Escapees, if caught, were often torn to shreds by camp guard dogs. The use of torture as punishment was also common. *Soviet dissident historian Roy Medvedev has compared the conditions in the Kolyma camps to Auschwitz*."
> 
> Kolyma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Also, a May 1941 FBI custodial detention notice obtained for Owen under FOIA and reproduced in  "Blacklisted" describes the "Professors 'nationalistic tenancies' as 'Communist'"
> 
> Yes, Owen Lattimore was not mentioned in Venona, but Hoover didn't trust him and he sure loved everything about the USSR and the Chicoms.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You claimed we could not name anyone.
> Lattimore was no communist spy, he was imprisoned on false evidence, his life was ruined and you claim it is all OK because "Hoover didn't trust him".
> 
> You need to move to Iran Frank. They do things your way over there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Everyone knows that American Marxists known as Porgressives have lied about everything to do with McCarthy.
> 
> Lattimore was a spy, Lattimore was a Soviet sock puppet.
> 
> Lattimore toured a placed compared with Auschwitz and came back raving about how nice it was.
> 
> Lattmire is a tool, what's your excuse?
Click to expand...


CF, is it simply my impression, or has Dullard73 never used support of his position as in links and documentation?

Wonder why that is......?

Now 'fess up, Frank...have you paid Dullard to post just to make his side look bad?


----------



## HUGGY

CrusaderFrank said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yet you still haven't come up with a single name. So put up or shut the fuck up
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well...that settles it doesn't it!!!!  McCarthy was obviously an American hero!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> But don't you have to take a moment to reconsider when the central part of your argument is: McCarthy lied and ruined lives, and you can't come up with a single life ruined?
Click to expand...


Fabulas suggestion Frankie! I'll pass.  Having already lived through the period and recieved the input of my grand parents  and parents at the time I'll have to go with that.  It does not concern me that McCarthy may have been misunderstood.  When looking at the bigger picture there was a "red scare" machine working hard to gin up fear against "commies" and the leftist hollywood crowd.  McCarthy was in the lead in this smear campaign.  I am not afraid of communists and neither was my family.  They thought as I do that communism is and was foolish.  It's demise has proven them correct.

We had just finished the most desperate fight for survival and were suckered into a fight with the Chinks via N. Korea.  What our country needed was to back off from the war mentality.  What we needed was to build up our defenses in a responsible way.  McCarthys actions were irrisponsible.  Simply put.  He and the wack John Birch Society deserved a slap down.  He is not worthy of reconsideration.


----------



## PoliticalChic

HUGGY said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well...that settles it doesn't it!!!!  McCarthy was obviously an American hero!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But don't you have to take a moment to reconsider when the central part of your argument is: McCarthy lied and ruined lives, and you can't come up with a single life ruined?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Fabulas suggestion Frankie! I'll pass.  Having already lived through the period and recieved the input of my grand parents  and parents at the time I'll have to go with that.  It does not concern me that McCarthy may have been misunderstood.  When looking at the bigger picture there was a "red scare" machine working hard to gin up fear against "commies" and the leftist hollywood crowd.  McCarthy was in the lead in this smear campaign.  I am not afraid of communists and neither was my family.  They thought as I do that communism is and was foolish.  It's demise has proven them correct.
> 
> We had just finished the most desperate fight for survival and were suckered into a fight with the Chinks via N. Korea.  What our country needed was to back off from the war mentality.  What we needed was to build up our defenses in a responsible way.  McCarthys actions were irrisponsible.  Simply put.  He and the wack John Birch Society deserved a slap down.  He is not worthy of reconsideration.
Click to expand...


" Even the truth about Owen Lattimore, the most famous of McCarthy's "victims," has finally come out, thanks to a former Chinese espionage agent's memoirs and declassified FBI files, which go a long way to vindicate McCarthy's original charges. In retrospect, the cause McCarthy made his own  anticommunism  has proved to be more valid and durable than the basic assumptions of his anti-anti-Communist critics." 
http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/h/herman-mccarthy.html


----------



## JakeStarkey

Ollie North, by PC's figuring, then is nothing but a crummy convicted conservative.


----------



## HUGGY

PoliticalChic said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> But don't you have to take a moment to reconsider when the central part of your argument is: McCarthy lied and ruined lives, and you can't come up with a single life ruined?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fabulas suggestion Frankie! I'll pass.  Having already lived through the period and recieved the input of my grand parents  and parents at the time I'll have to go with that.  It does not concern me that McCarthy may have been misunderstood.  When looking at the bigger picture there was a "red scare" machine working hard to gin up fear against "commies" and the leftist hollywood crowd.  McCarthy was in the lead in this smear campaign.  I am not afraid of communists and neither was my family.  They thought as I do that communism is and was foolish.  It's demise has proven them correct.
> 
> We had just finished the most desperate fight for survival and were suckered into a fight with the Chinks via N. Korea.  What our country needed was to back off from the war mentality.  What we needed was to build up our defenses in a responsible way.  McCarthys actions were irrisponsible.  Simply put.  He and the wack John Birch Society deserved a slap down.  He is not worthy of reconsideration.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> " Even the truth about Owen Lattimore, the most famous of McCarthy's "victims," has finally come out, *thanks to a former Chinese espionage agent's memoirs *and declassified FBI files, which go a long way to vindicate McCarthy's original charges. In retrospect, the cause McCarthy made his own  anticommunism  has proved to be more valid and durable than the basic assumptions of his anti-anti-Communist critics."
> http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/h/herman-mccarthy.html
Click to expand...


Ha...Ha....Ha....   PC...you are way past desperate!  I think I'll pass on taking a Chinese Commie spy's word for ANYTHING!!!!  Who ya gonna quote next? Mao Tse Tung?

Get over it.  McCarths legacy has been well defined.  Any small discrepancies that idicate he deserves a tad more credit than he has been given is a dollar short and a day late.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

HUGGY said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fabulas suggestion Frankie! I'll pass.  Having already lived through the period and recieved the input of my grand parents  and parents at the time I'll have to go with that.  It does not concern me that McCarthy may have been misunderstood.  When looking at the bigger picture there was a "red scare" machine working hard to gin up fear against "commies" and the leftist hollywood crowd.  McCarthy was in the lead in this smear campaign.  I am not afraid of communists and neither was my family.  They thought as I do that communism is and was foolish.  It's demise has proven them correct.
> 
> We had just finished the most desperate fight for survival and were suckered into a fight with the Chinks via N. Korea.  What our country needed was to back off from the war mentality.  What we needed was to build up our defenses in a responsible way.  McCarthys actions were irrisponsible.  Simply put.  He and the wack John Birch Society deserved a slap down.  He is not worthy of reconsideration.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> " Even the truth about Owen Lattimore, the most famous of McCarthy's "victims," has finally come out, *thanks to a former Chinese espionage agent's memoirs *and declassified FBI files, which go a long way to vindicate McCarthy's original charges. In retrospect, the cause McCarthy made his own  anticommunism  has proved to be more valid and durable than the basic assumptions of his anti-anti-Communist critics."
> http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/h/herman-mccarthy.html
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ha...Ha....Ha....   PC...you are way past desperate!  I think I'll pass on taking a Chinese Commie spy's word for ANYTHING!!!!  Who ya gonna quote next? Mao Tse Tung?
> 
> Get over it.  McCarths legacy has been well defined.  Any small discrepancies that idicate he deserves a tad more credit than he has been given is a dollar short and a day late.
Click to expand...


I quoted Hoover's thoughts from a recently declassified FBI memo confirming that Lattimore was a security risk and from a separate FBI memo obtained recently under FOIA describing Lattimore as a Communist.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

JakeStarkey said:


> Ollie North, by PC's figuring, then is nothing but a crummy convicted conservative.



Subtitled: I have nothing to add but wanted to post here anyway


----------



## CrusaderFrank

HUGGY said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well...that settles it doesn't it!!!!  McCarthy was obviously an American hero!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But don't you have to take a moment to reconsider when the central part of your argument is: McCarthy lied and ruined lives, and you can't come up with a single life ruined?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Fabulas suggestion Frankie! I'll pass.  Having already lived through the period and recieved the input of my grand parents  and parents at the time I'll have to go with that.  It does not concern me that McCarthy may have been misunderstood.  When looking at the bigger picture there was a "red scare" machine working hard to gin up fear against "commies" and the leftist hollywood crowd.  McCarthy was in the lead in this smear campaign.  I am not afraid of communists and neither was my family.  They thought as I do that communism is and was foolish.  It's demise has proven them correct.
> 
> We had just finished the most desperate fight for survival and were suckered into a fight with the Chinks via N. Korea.  What our country needed was to back off from the war mentality.  What we needed was to build up our defenses in a responsible way.  McCarthys actions were irrisponsible.  Simply put.  He and the wack John Birch Society deserved a slap down.  He is not worthy of reconsideration.
Click to expand...


We got Suckered because Lattimore and his treasonous friends at State had us abandon the Free Chinese in favor of the ChiComs.  

I confess almost no knowledge about the start of the Korean War but it not too much to supposed that the ChiComs thought they could handle US involvement via their puppets Lattimore, et al.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

PoliticalChic said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You claimed we could not name anyone.
> Lattimore was no communist spy, he was imprisoned on false evidence, his life was ruined and you claim it is all OK because "Hoover didn't trust him".
> 
> You need to move to Iran Frank. They do things your way over there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone knows that American Marxists known as Porgressives have lied about everything to do with McCarthy.
> 
> Lattimore was a spy, Lattimore was a Soviet sock puppet.
> 
> Lattimore toured a placed compared with Auschwitz and came back raving about how nice it was.
> 
> Lattmire is a tool, what's your excuse?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> CF, is it simply my impression, or has Dullard73 never used support of his position as in links and documentation?
> 
> Wonder why that is......?
> 
> Now 'fess up, Frank...have you paid Dullard to post just to make his side look bad?
Click to expand...


He'll show up here again spewing how McCarthy's HUAC drove Zero Mostel out of Hollywood.


----------



## PoliticalChic

HUGGY said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fabulas suggestion Frankie! I'll pass.  Having already lived through the period and recieved the input of my grand parents  and parents at the time I'll have to go with that.  It does not concern me that McCarthy may have been misunderstood.  When looking at the bigger picture there was a "red scare" machine working hard to gin up fear against "commies" and the leftist hollywood crowd.  McCarthy was in the lead in this smear campaign.  I am not afraid of communists and neither was my family.  They thought as I do that communism is and was foolish.  It's demise has proven them correct.
> 
> We had just finished the most desperate fight for survival and were suckered into a fight with the Chinks via N. Korea.  What our country needed was to back off from the war mentality.  What we needed was to build up our defenses in a responsible way.  McCarthys actions were irrisponsible.  Simply put.  He and the wack John Birch Society deserved a slap down.  He is not worthy of reconsideration.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> " Even the truth about Owen Lattimore, the most famous of McCarthy's "victims," has finally come out, *thanks to a former Chinese espionage agent's memoirs *and declassified FBI files, which go a long way to vindicate McCarthy's original charges. In retrospect, the cause McCarthy made his own  anticommunism  has proved to be more valid and durable than the basic assumptions of his anti-anti-Communist critics."
> http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/h/herman-mccarthy.html
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ha...Ha....Ha....   PC...you are way past desperate!  I think I'll pass on taking a Chinese Commie spy's word for ANYTHING!!!!  Who ya gonna quote next? Mao Tse Tung?
> 
> Get over it.  McCarths legacy has been well defined.  Any small discrepancies that idicate he deserves a tad more credit than he has been given is a dollar short and a day late.
Click to expand...


Now, friend Hugs, your laugh appears hollow in the light of all the references to the rectitude of Senator McCarthy.

I'm sure you've noticed that none have been able to find any innocent folks that were incriminated by the good Senator, and as a sentient individual, you probably wondered why the Senator has been pilloried as opposed to the one who actually jailed folks for thought crimes, President Woodrow Wilson.


This, from a review of Morgan's book, 'Reds,':

"But the year 1995 was an epochal one for the study of American Communism. For in that year, thanks to the insistence of the late Democratic Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan of New York, who had long specialized in intelligence matters, some 2,900 documents collectively known as "the Venona papers" (a deliberately meaningless code phrase) were de-classified and published. These were radio messages from the top KGB agents in Washington and New York to their superiors in Moscow from approximately 1943 to 1948. They had been recorded at the time by the U.S. Army Signal Corps, but they were, of course, in code, and their decoding was an immensely arduous job carried out by a number of heroic government cryptanalysts over the period from 1945 to 1980.

A second new source of information on the American Communist Party was the archives in Moscow of the defunct Soviet Union, which began to be partially accessible to American investigators in the early 1990s, during the Yeltsin years.

Small wonder, then, that liberals, after the onset of the Cold War with the Soviet Union in 1946, dreaded so profoundly the disclosure of the appalling degree of governmental penetration that they now began to suspect the Communists had achieved on their watch in the 1930s and the first half of the 1940s.

This part of the book is going to come as an ugly surprise to a lot of liberals who comforted themselves until 1995 with the aforementioned canonical claptrap about the unimportance of domestic Communism and have managed to ignore the Venona papers and the Soviet archives ever since."In their scope and effectiveness, the Soviet espionage operations in wartime America were without historical precedent. Never did one country steal so many political, diplomatic, scientific, and military secrets from another. It was analogous, in espionage terms, to the looting of European artworks by the Nazis. Except that in the friendly, cooperative spirit of the times, we invited them in."

The Claremont Institute - A Closer Look Under The Bed


----------



## PoliticalChic

CrusaderFrank said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> But don't you have to take a moment to reconsider when the central part of your argument is: McCarthy lied and ruined lives, and you can't come up with a single life ruined?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fabulas suggestion Frankie! I'll pass.  Having already lived through the period and recieved the input of my grand parents  and parents at the time I'll have to go with that.  It does not concern me that McCarthy may have been misunderstood.  When looking at the bigger picture there was a "red scare" machine working hard to gin up fear against "commies" and the leftist hollywood crowd.  McCarthy was in the lead in this smear campaign.  I am not afraid of communists and neither was my family.  They thought as I do that communism is and was foolish.  It's demise has proven them correct.
> 
> We had just finished the most desperate fight for survival and were suckered into a fight with the Chinks via N. Korea.  What our country needed was to back off from the war mentality.  What we needed was to build up our defenses in a responsible way.  McCarthys actions were irrisponsible.  Simply put.  He and the wack John Birch Society deserved a slap down.  He is not worthy of reconsideration.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We got Suckered because Lattimore and his treasonous friends at State had us abandon the Free Chinese in favor of the ChiComs.
> 
> I confess almost no knowledge about the start of the Korean War but it not too much to supposed that the ChiComs thought they could handle US involvement via their puppets Lattimore, et al.
Click to expand...


How lacking in empathy must our friends on the left be not to feel the blood of the millions of Chinese, slaughtered by Mao, on their hands...

Lattimore, raised in Singapore, was in the perfect position to persuade administrations that he knew which Chinese to support...Mao, rather than Chiang Kai-shek.

And "[Harry Dexter] White engineered the Treasury's fatal delay in providing a promised loan to support the currency of Nationalist China, then in its epochal struggle with the Chinese Communists. As Morgan remarks, "Failure to receive the loan in time was only part of the cause of Chiang Kai-shek's downfall, but it counted." (Who lost China?)
The Claremont Institute - A Closer Look Under The Bed

These are the Soviet agents who determined US policy.
Democrat administrations believed, promoted and followed the directions of Soviet agents...


----------



## HUGGY

What I believe is that neither of you two understand what it was like back then.  McCarthy wasn't blabbering his demagoguery in a vacuum.  He was the show.  Let me compare it to something you may be able to relate to..two examples.  A: The Watergate affair  B. The senate hearings and impeachment trial of Bill Clinton.

EXCEPT the McCarthy hearings had a phony nationalistic "better dead than red" mentality and when you combined that with the brand new atomic bomb ..it scared the shit out of EVERYBODY!  That's when the crazy "drop and cover" exercises started.  Nowadays we take nuclear deterrent for granted.  We are collectively numb to the possibility of a nuclear exchange.  Not so back then.  The horror of a nuclear bomb was fresh in everyones mind.  "Communist"  meant "Communist Spies".  Communist Spies meant were all going to die in a nuclear holocaust.  Most people really believed that shit.  You have to take into account that there was no "other" source of information.  Try to imagine what it would be like if the only official you got talked to by was Obama.  The three news channels very seldom editorialised.  In fact there was no National television programming per Se.  There was the evening news and "special broadcasts only for a long time.  Most of what you saw was local stations programing.  AND those stations went off the air sometimes as early as 9 PM. back on between 6 and 8 AM.  The McCarthy hearings were broadcast as a "special program" There was much more information on the radio than television and there was much more information in newsprint at that time than anywhere else.  We were like mushrooms..kept in the dark and fed bullshit.  Point being it was easy for McCarthy to monopolize what little media that existed once he got everyone scared.  

Sure there were a handful of spies.  Big whoop!  There have ALWAYS been spies.

One of my dads best friends was a spook for the CIA.  His job was to catch spies and dispose of them...quietly and terminally. I'll just call him "Ben" cuz that's his name.  Ben advised me for many years on my smuggling exploits as a favor to my dad.  He shared tales of his job sometimes to try to scare me out of my work.  I can assure you that our enemies are far more reluctant to try to steal secrets when their agents are all of a sudden never heard from again.  They assume rightly that the dumb unlucky s.o.b. gave up HIS secrets in the final minutes of drawing breath.  That's the way to deal with spies.  Making a spectacle is the wrong way on almost every level.


----------



## PoliticalChic

HUGGY said:


> What I believe is that neither of you two understand what it was like back then.  McCarthy wasn't blabbering his demagoguery in a vacuum.  He was the show.  Let me compare it to something you may be able to relate to..two examples.  A: The Watergate affair  B. The senate hearings and impeachment trial of Bill Clinton.
> 
> EXCEPT the McCarthy hearings had a phony nationalistic "better dead than red" mentality and when you combined that with the brand new atomic bomb ..it scared the shit out of EVERYBODY!  That's when the crazy "drop and cover" exercises started.  Nowadays we take nuclear deterrent for granted.  We are collectively numb to the possibility of a nuclear exchange.  No so back then.  The horror of a nuclear bomb was fresh in everyones mind.  "Communist"  meant "Communist Spies".  Communist Spies meant were all going to die in a nuclear holocaust.  Most people really believed that shit.  You have to take into account that there was no "other" source of information.  Try to imagine what it would be like if the only official you got talked to by was Obama.  The three news channels very seldom editorialised.  In fact there was no National television programming per Se.  There was the evening news and "special broadcasts only for a long time.  Most of what you saw was local stations programing.  AND those stations went off the air sometimes as early as 9 PM. back on between 6 and 8 AM.  The McCarthy hearings were broadcast as a "special program" There was much more information on the radio than television and there was much more information in newsprint at that time than anywhere else.  We were like mushrooms..kept in the dark and fed bullshit.  Point being it was easy for McCarthy to monopolize what little media that existed once he got everyone scared.
> 
> Sure there were a handful of spies.  Big whoop!  There have ALWAYS been spies.
> 
> One of my dads best friends was a spook for the CIA.  His job was to catch spies and dispose of them...quietly and terminally. I'll just call him "Ben" cuz that's his name.  Ben advised me for many years on my smuggling exploits as a favor to my dad.  He shared tales of his job sometimes to try to scare me out of my work.  I can assure you that our enemies are far more reluctant to try to steal secrets when their agents are all of a sudden never heard from again.  They assume rightly that the dumb unlucky s.o.b. gave up HIS secrets in the final minutes of drawing breath.  That's the way to deal with spies.  Making a spectacle is the wrong way on almost every level.



Anecdotal personal history is very different from an eschatological perspective.

Yet each may be more determinative at different times...

I have a sense that you are beginning to understand how American policy and world history since the end of WWII have been directed by the efforts of the totalitarians, and the lack of effort by the liberals.

I believe that you'll think about it...


----------



## HUGGY

PoliticalChic said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> What I believe is that neither of you two understand what it was like back then.  McCarthy wasn't blabbering his demagoguery in a vacuum.  He was the show.  Let me compare it to something you may be able to relate to..two examples.  A: The Watergate affair  B. The senate hearings and impeachment trial of Bill Clinton.
> 
> EXCEPT the McCarthy hearings had a phony nationalistic "better dead than red" mentality and when you combined that with the brand new atomic bomb ..it scared the shit out of EVERYBODY!  That's when the crazy "drop and cover" exercises started.  Nowadays we take nuclear deterrent for granted.  We are collectively numb to the possibility of a nuclear exchange.  No so back then.  The horror of a nuclear bomb was fresh in everyones mind.  "Communist"  meant "Communist Spies".  Communist Spies meant were all going to die in a nuclear holocaust.  Most people really believed that shit.  You have to take into account that there was no "other" source of information.  Try to imagine what it would be like if the only official you got talked to by was Obama.  The three news channels very seldom editorialised.  In fact there was no National television programming per Se.  There was the evening news and "special broadcasts only for a long time.  Most of what you saw was local stations programing.  AND those stations went off the air sometimes as early as 9 PM. back on between 6 and 8 AM.  The McCarthy hearings were broadcast as a "special program" There was much more information on the radio than television and there was much more information in newsprint at that time than anywhere else.  We were like mushrooms..kept in the dark and fed bullshit.  Point being it was easy for McCarthy to monopolize what little media that existed once he got everyone scared.
> 
> Sure there were a handful of spies.  Big whoop!  There have ALWAYS been spies.
> 
> One of my dads best friends was a spook for the CIA.  His job was to catch spies and dispose of them...quietly and terminally. I'll just call him "Ben" cuz that's his name.  Ben advised me for many years on my smuggling exploits as a favor to my dad.  He shared tales of his job sometimes to try to scare me out of my work.  I can assure you that our enemies are far more reluctant to try to steal secrets when their agents are all of a sudden never heard from again.  They assume rightly that the dumb unlucky s.o.b. gave up HIS secrets in the final minutes of drawing breath.  That's the way to deal with spies.  Making a spectacle is the wrong way on almost every level.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anecdotal personal history is very different from an eschatological perspective.
> 
> Yet each may be more determinative at different times...
> 
> I have a sense that you are beginning to understand how American policy and world history since the end of WWII have been directed by the efforts of the totalitarians, and the lack of effort by the liberals.
> 
> I believe that you'll think about it...
Click to expand...


I don't dispute that I may never have heard the whole story at the time.  What you cannot dispute was the chilling and very dangerous antiAmerican effect McCarthy had on the sensibilities of the average American at the time.  Thousands of everyday people turning in their neighbors.  Blacklisting. The level of fear and paranoia was insane.  If it took sacrificing McCarthy to snap the American psyche out of the crazy commie witch hunt then it was well worth it.


----------



## PoliticalChic

HUGGY said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> What I believe is that neither of you two understand what it was like back then.  McCarthy wasn't blabbering his demagoguery in a vacuum.  He was the show.  Let me compare it to something you may be able to relate to..two examples.  A: The Watergate affair  B. The senate hearings and impeachment trial of Bill Clinton.
> 
> EXCEPT the McCarthy hearings had a phony nationalistic "better dead than red" mentality and when you combined that with the brand new atomic bomb ..it scared the shit out of EVERYBODY!  That's when the crazy "drop and cover" exercises started.  Nowadays we take nuclear deterrent for granted.  We are collectively numb to the possibility of a nuclear exchange.  No so back then.  The horror of a nuclear bomb was fresh in everyones mind.  "Communist"  meant "Communist Spies".  Communist Spies meant were all going to die in a nuclear holocaust.  Most people really believed that shit.  You have to take into account that there was no "other" source of information.  Try to imagine what it would be like if the only official you got talked to by was Obama.  The three news channels very seldom editorialised.  In fact there was no National television programming per Se.  There was the evening news and "special broadcasts only for a long time.  Most of what you saw was local stations programing.  AND those stations went off the air sometimes as early as 9 PM. back on between 6 and 8 AM.  The McCarthy hearings were broadcast as a "special program" There was much more information on the radio than television and there was much more information in newsprint at that time than anywhere else.  We were like mushrooms..kept in the dark and fed bullshit.  Point being it was easy for McCarthy to monopolize what little media that existed once he got everyone scared.
> 
> Sure there were a handful of spies.  Big whoop!  There have ALWAYS been spies.
> 
> One of my dads best friends was a spook for the CIA.  His job was to catch spies and dispose of them...quietly and terminally. I'll just call him "Ben" cuz that's his name.  Ben advised me for many years on my smuggling exploits as a favor to my dad.  He shared tales of his job sometimes to try to scare me out of my work.  I can assure you that our enemies are far more reluctant to try to steal secrets when their agents are all of a sudden never heard from again.  They assume rightly that the dumb unlucky s.o.b. gave up HIS secrets in the final minutes of drawing breath.  That's the way to deal with spies.  Making a spectacle is the wrong way on almost every level.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anecdotal personal history is very different from an eschatological perspective.
> 
> Yet each may be more determinative at different times...
> 
> I have a sense that you are beginning to understand how American policy and world history since the end of WWII have been directed by the efforts of the totalitarians, and the lack of effort by the liberals.
> 
> I believe that you'll think about it...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't dispute that I may never have heard the whole story at the time.  What you cannot dispute was the chilling and very dangerous antiAmerican effect McCarthy had on the sensibilities of the average American at the time.  Thousands of everyday people turning in their neighbors.  Blacklisting. The level of fear and paranoia was insane.  If it took sacrificing McCarthy to snap the American psyche out of the crazy commie witch hunt then it was well worth it.
Click to expand...


You misstate, I believe, the direction of the 'anti-American effect..."
It was actually the acceptance of totalitarian communism by both the average person who had no sense of how dangerous communism was, and how close it came to dominating this country, and elected Democratic officials, who laughed it off, that represented anti-Americanism. McCarty was the Paul Revere of his day.


A better understanding of the numbers:

"The best and most generous estimate is that during the entire decade of the red scare, ten thousand Americans lost their jobs because of their past or present *affiliation with the Communist Party or one of its auxiliary organizations.* Of those who lost their jobs, two thousand worked in the *government*, and in perhaps forty cases McCarthy himself was directly or indirectly responsible for their being fired. *In only one case  that of Owen Lattimore  can anyone make the argument that McCarthy's allegations led to any actual legal proceedings,* and there a judge eventually threw out most of the indictment. Paradoxically, the fact that *McCarthy never sent anyone to prison *is also turned against him; opponents claimed that during his entire career, he never actually exposed a single spy or Communist  a claim that is manifestly untrue, as we will see.

In fact, the number of people who did spend time in prison remained small. A grand total of *108 Communist Party members were convicted under the antisubversion provisions of the Smith Act,* which Congress passed in 1941 (long before McCarthy was a member) and applied as equally to Nazi and fascist organizations as it did to Communists. Another twenty Communist Party members were imprisoned under state and local laws. Fewer than a dozen Americans went to jail for espionage activities (one of them being Alger Hiss, who was convicted of perjury). Exactly two were sentenced to death for conspiracy to commit espionage: Julius and Ethel Rosenberg."
(emphasis mine)
http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/h/herman-mccarthy.html

To get a better picture of what we would have seen in the United States, had agents like Lattimore, White, and the Rosenbergs gotten their way, consider what the Russian Communists did to their own people:

"We need to contrast all this with the three and a half million people who, according to the KGB's own official numbers, were arrested and sent to the gulag during the six years of Stalin's Great Terror, from 1935 to 1941. None had the benefit of any genuine legal protection; Stalin's secret police seized, interrogated, and sentenced the lot. The KGB states that of that number, 681,692 were executed in 1937-1938 alone. Taken with the four or five million people who died in Stalin's Great Famine of 1932-1933, the total number of human beings executed, exiled, imprisoned, or starved to death in those years comes to ten to eleven million. These are official KGB numbers released at the end of the cold war. *They are almost certainly low."*
Ibid.

And the hero who stood up against this 'red tide' is the one you choose to rail against. I know you'll reconsider in view of the actual history.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Paul Revere was a patriot who put his life in danger to serve the cause.

McCarthy was a vicious demagogue who had no real care for America and its people as long as he had power to aggrandize himself and persecute others.  He no more believed in his cause than many of the Pope's inquisitors.

Question: why does PC ignore that Ollie North was a perjured felon, like Owen Lattimore, and both had their convictions overturned?

Question: why does PC ignore that names of the injured and the climate of fear by the innocent has been established beyond doubt?

Question: why does PC claim those that factually refute her arguments are "liberals", when in fact many are not?

Conclusion: PC is fail.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

JakeStarkey said:


> Paul Revere was a patriot who put his life in danger to serve the cause.
> 
> McCarthy was a vicious demagogue who had no real care for America and its people as long as he had power to aggrandize himself and persecute others.  He no more believed in his cause than many of the Pope's inquisitors.
> 
> Question: why does PC ignore that Ollie North was a perjured felon, like Owen Lattimore, and both had their convictions overturned?
> 
> Question: why does PC ignore that names of the injured and the climate of fear by the innocent has been established beyond doubt?
> 
> Question: why does PC claim those that factually refute her arguments are "liberals", when in fact many are not?
> 
> Conclusion: PC is fail.



Question: Why does Jake Starkey continue to post in a thread that he refuses to read?


----------



## CrusaderFrank

JakeStarkey said:


> Paul Revere was a patriot who put his life in danger to serve the cause.
> 
> McCarthy was a vicious demagogue who had no real care for America and its people as long as he had power to aggrandize himself and persecute others.  He no more believed in his cause than many of the Pope's inquisitors.
> 
> Question: why does PC ignore that Ollie North was a perjured felon, like Owen Lattimore, and both had their convictions overturned?
> 
> Question: why does PC ignore that names of the injured and the climate of fear by the innocent has been established beyond doubt?
> 
> Question: why does PC claim those that factually refute her arguments are "liberals", when in fact many are not?
> 
> Conclusion: PC is fail.



Why is Jake Starkey spending so much time defending confirmed spy Owen Latimore?


----------



## JakeStarkey

McCarthy was a vicious demagogue who had no real care for America and its people as long as he had power to aggrandize himself and persecute others. He no more believed in his cause than many of the Pope's inquisitors.

Question: why does PC ignore that Ollie North was a perjured felon, like Owen Lattimore, and both had their convictions overturned?

Question: why does PC ignore that names of the injured and the climate of fear by the innocent has been established beyond doubt?

Question: why does PC claim those that factually refute her arguments are "liberals", when in fact many are not?

Conclusion: PC is fail.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

JakeStarkey said:


> McCarthy was a vicious demagogue who had no real care for America and its people as long as he had power to aggrandize himself and persecute others. He no more believed in his cause than many of the Pope's inquisitors.
> 
> Question: why does PC ignore that Ollie North was a perjured felon, like Owen Lattimore, and both had their convictions overturned?
> 
> Question: why does PC ignore that names of the injured and the climate of fear by the innocent has been established beyond doubt?
> 
> Question: why does PC claim those that factually refute her arguments are "liberals", when in fact many are not?
> 
> Conclusion: PC is fail.



Owen Lattimore handed China to Mao. Why do Progressives continue to support traitors who helped history's greatest mass murderer?

It's mind boggling


----------



## HUGGY

PoliticalChic said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anecdotal personal history is very different from an eschatological perspective.
> 
> Yet each may be more determinative at different times...
> 
> I have a sense that you are beginning to understand how American policy and world history since the end of WWII have been directed by the efforts of the totalitarians, and the lack of effort by the liberals.
> 
> I believe that you'll think about it...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't dispute that I may never have heard the whole story at the time.  What you cannot dispute was the chilling and very dangerous antiAmerican effect McCarthy had on the sensibilities of the average American at the time.  Thousands of everyday people turning in their neighbors.  Blacklisting. The level of fear and paranoia was insane.  If it took sacrificing McCarthy to snap the American psyche out of the crazy commie witch hunt then it was well worth it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You misstate, I believe, the direction of the 'anti-American effect..."
> It was actually the acceptance of totalitarian communism by both the average person who had no sense of how dangerous communism was, and how close it came to dominating this country, and elected Democratic officials, who laughed it off, that represented anti-Americanism. McCarty was the Paul Revere of his day.
> 
> 
> A better understanding of the numbers:
> 
> "The best and most generous estimate is that during the entire decade of the red scare, ten thousand Americans lost their jobs because of their past or present *affiliation with the Communist Party or one of its auxiliary organizations.* Of those who lost their jobs, two thousand worked in the *government*, and in perhaps forty cases McCarthy himself was directly or indirectly responsible for their being fired. *In only one case  that of Owen Lattimore  can anyone make the argument that McCarthy's allegations led to any actual legal proceedings,* and there a judge eventually threw out most of the indictment. Paradoxically, the fact that *McCarthy never sent anyone to prison *is also turned against him; opponents claimed that during his entire career, he never actually exposed a single spy or Communist  a claim that is manifestly untrue, as we will see.
> 
> In fact, the number of people who did spend time in prison remained small. A grand total of *108 Communist Party members were convicted under the antisubversion provisions of the Smith Act,* which Congress passed in 1941 (long before McCarthy was a member) and applied as equally to Nazi and fascist organizations as it did to Communists. Another twenty Communist Party members were imprisoned under state and local laws. Fewer than a dozen Americans went to jail for espionage activities (one of them being Alger Hiss, who was convicted of perjury). Exactly two were sentenced to death for conspiracy to commit espionage: Julius and Ethel Rosenberg."
> (emphasis mine)
> http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/h/herman-mccarthy.html
> 
> To get a better picture of what we would have seen in the United States, had agents like Lattimore, White, and the Rosenbergs gotten their way, consider what the Russian Communists did to their own people:
> 
> "We need to contrast all this with the three and a half million people who, according to the KGB's own official numbers, were arrested and sent to the gulag during the six years of Stalin's Great Terror, from 1935 to 1941. None had the benefit of any genuine legal protection; Stalin's secret police seized, interrogated, and sentenced the lot. The KGB states that of that number, 681,692 were executed in 1937-1938 alone. Taken with the four or five million people who died in Stalin's Great Famine of 1932-1933, the total number of human beings executed, exiled, imprisoned, or starved to death in those years comes to ten to eleven million. These are official KGB numbers released at the end of the cold war. *They are almost certainly low."*
> Ibid.
> 
> And the hero who stood up against this 'red tide' is the one you choose to rail against. I know you'll reconsider in view of the actual history.
Click to expand...


No one can deny that "Stalinism" was a horrible chapter in Russia.  

There have always been spies in our country...some of them dangerous.  I believe that they should be found out by law enforcement ..quietly.  If necessary they should be handled as my dad's friend did working as a spook for the CIA by covertly snatching them and eliminating them.  There is nothing like a spy "missing in action" that sends a chill and an undeniable message into the hearts of our enemies.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

HUGGY said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't dispute that I may never have heard the whole story at the time.  What you cannot dispute was the chilling and very dangerous antiAmerican effect McCarthy had on the sensibilities of the average American at the time.  Thousands of everyday people turning in their neighbors.  Blacklisting. The level of fear and paranoia was insane.  If it took sacrificing McCarthy to snap the American psyche out of the crazy commie witch hunt then it was well worth it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You misstate, I believe, the direction of the 'anti-American effect..."
> It was actually the acceptance of totalitarian communism by both the average person who had no sense of how dangerous communism was, and how close it came to dominating this country, and elected Democratic officials, who laughed it off, that represented anti-Americanism. McCarty was the Paul Revere of his day.
> 
> 
> A better understanding of the numbers:
> 
> "The best and most generous estimate is that during the entire decade of the red scare, ten thousand Americans lost their jobs because of their past or present *affiliation with the Communist Party or one of its auxiliary organizations.* Of those who lost their jobs, two thousand worked in the *government*, and in perhaps forty cases McCarthy himself was directly or indirectly responsible for their being fired. *In only one case  that of Owen Lattimore  can anyone make the argument that McCarthy's allegations led to any actual legal proceedings,* and there a judge eventually threw out most of the indictment. Paradoxically, the fact that *McCarthy never sent anyone to prison *is also turned against him; opponents claimed that during his entire career, he never actually exposed a single spy or Communist  a claim that is manifestly untrue, as we will see.
> 
> In fact, the number of people who did spend time in prison remained small. A grand total of *108 Communist Party members were convicted under the antisubversion provisions of the Smith Act,* which Congress passed in 1941 (long before McCarthy was a member) and applied as equally to Nazi and fascist organizations as it did to Communists. Another twenty Communist Party members were imprisoned under state and local laws. Fewer than a dozen Americans went to jail for espionage activities (one of them being Alger Hiss, who was convicted of perjury). Exactly two were sentenced to death for conspiracy to commit espionage: Julius and Ethel Rosenberg."
> (emphasis mine)
> http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/h/herman-mccarthy.html
> 
> To get a better picture of what we would have seen in the United States, had agents like Lattimore, White, and the Rosenbergs gotten their way, consider what the Russian Communists did to their own people:
> 
> "We need to contrast all this with the three and a half million people who, according to the KGB's own official numbers, were arrested and sent to the gulag during the six years of Stalin's Great Terror, from 1935 to 1941. None had the benefit of any genuine legal protection; Stalin's secret police seized, interrogated, and sentenced the lot. The KGB states that of that number, 681,692 were executed in 1937-1938 alone. Taken with the four or five million people who died in Stalin's Great Famine of 1932-1933, the total number of human beings executed, exiled, imprisoned, or starved to death in those years comes to ten to eleven million. These are official KGB numbers released at the end of the cold war. *They are almost certainly low."*
> Ibid.
> 
> And the hero who stood up against this 'red tide' is the one you choose to rail against. I know you'll reconsider in view of the actual history.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No one can deny that "Stalinism" was a horrible chapter in Russia.
> 
> There have always been spies in our country...some of them dangerous.  I believe that they should be found out by law enforcement ..quietly.  If necessary they should be handled as my dad's friend did working as a spook for the CIA by covertly snatching them and eliminating them.  There is nothing like a spy "missing in action" that sends a chill and an undeniable message into the hearts of our enemies.
Click to expand...


The FBI was all over it, they warned FDR, they did what they could within the limits of the law.  That Owen Lattimore, Lauchlin Currie, Harry White and others didn't disappear speaks to the restraint that Hoover operated under.

If you read Lauchlin Currie's Wikidpedia information you have to wonder not only how how didn't vanish, but how and why he was such a trusted adviser to FDR!

He's collapsing our economy, handing China to Mao and part of a know Soviet spy ring the whole time.

Lauchlin Currie - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## HUGGY

CrusaderFrank said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> You misstate, I believe, the direction of the 'anti-American effect..."
> It was actually the acceptance of totalitarian communism by both the average person who had no sense of how dangerous communism was, and how close it came to dominating this country, and elected Democratic officials, who laughed it off, that represented anti-Americanism. McCarty was the Paul Revere of his day.
> 
> 
> A better understanding of the numbers:
> 
> "The best and most generous estimate is that during the entire decade of the red scare, ten thousand Americans lost their jobs because of their past or present *affiliation with the Communist Party or one of its auxiliary organizations.* Of those who lost their jobs, two thousand worked in the *government*, and in perhaps forty cases McCarthy himself was directly or indirectly responsible for their being fired. *In only one case  that of Owen Lattimore  can anyone make the argument that McCarthy's allegations led to any actual legal proceedings,* and there a judge eventually threw out most of the indictment. Paradoxically, the fact that *McCarthy never sent anyone to prison *is also turned against him; opponents claimed that during his entire career, he never actually exposed a single spy or Communist  a claim that is manifestly untrue, as we will see.
> 
> In fact, the number of people who did spend time in prison remained small. A grand total of *108 Communist Party members were convicted under the antisubversion provisions of the Smith Act,* which Congress passed in 1941 (long before McCarthy was a member) and applied as equally to Nazi and fascist organizations as it did to Communists. Another twenty Communist Party members were imprisoned under state and local laws. Fewer than a dozen Americans went to jail for espionage activities (one of them being Alger Hiss, who was convicted of perjury). Exactly two were sentenced to death for conspiracy to commit espionage: Julius and Ethel Rosenberg."
> (emphasis mine)
> http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/h/herman-mccarthy.html
> 
> To get a better picture of what we would have seen in the United States, had agents like Lattimore, White, and the Rosenbergs gotten their way, consider what the Russian Communists did to their own people:
> 
> "We need to contrast all this with the three and a half million people who, according to the KGB's own official numbers, were arrested and sent to the gulag during the six years of Stalin's Great Terror, from 1935 to 1941. None had the benefit of any genuine legal protection; Stalin's secret police seized, interrogated, and sentenced the lot. The KGB states that of that number, 681,692 were executed in 1937-1938 alone. Taken with the four or five million people who died in Stalin's Great Famine of 1932-1933, the total number of human beings executed, exiled, imprisoned, or starved to death in those years comes to ten to eleven million. These are official KGB numbers released at the end of the cold war. *They are almost certainly low."*
> Ibid.
> 
> And the hero who stood up against this 'red tide' is the one you choose to rail against. I know you'll reconsider in view of the actual history.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No one can deny that "Stalinism" was a horrible chapter in Russia.
> 
> There have always been spies in our country...some of them dangerous.  I believe that they should be found out by law enforcement ..quietly.  If necessary they should be handled as my dad's friend did working as a spook for the CIA by covertly snatching them and eliminating them.  There is nothing like a spy "missing in action" that sends a chill and an undeniable message into the hearts of our enemies.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The FBI was all over it, they warned FDR, they did what they could within the limits of the law.  That Owen Lattimore, Lauchlin Currie, Harry White and others didn't disappear speaks to the restraint that Hoover operated under.
> 
> If you read Lauchlin Currie's Wikidpedia information you have to wonder not only how how didn't vanish, but how and why he was such a trusted adviser to FDR!
> 
> He's collapsing our economy, handing China to Mao and part of a know Soviet spy ring the whole time.
> 
> Lauchlin Currie - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Click to expand...


Roosevelt was living a lie.  He did some good things but when you are so busy hiding your crippling disease it makes a president vulnerable.  He should have never ran and when he became overwhelmed with his ilness he should have stepped down.  No one is that indespensable.  .


----------



## CrusaderFrank

HUGGY said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> No one can deny that "Stalinism" was a horrible chapter in Russia.
> 
> There have always been spies in our country...some of them dangerous.  I believe that they should be found out by law enforcement ..quietly.  If necessary they should be handled as my dad's friend did working as a spook for the CIA by covertly snatching them and eliminating them.  There is nothing like a spy "missing in action" that sends a chill and an undeniable message into the hearts of our enemies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The FBI was all over it, they warned FDR, they did what they could within the limits of the law.  That Owen Lattimore, Lauchlin Currie, Harry White and others didn't disappear speaks to the restraint that Hoover operated under.
> 
> If you read Lauchlin Currie's Wikidpedia information you have to wonder not only how how didn't vanish, but how and why he was such a trusted adviser to FDR!
> 
> He's collapsing our economy, handing China to Mao and part of a know Soviet spy ring the whole time.
> 
> Lauchlin Currie - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Roosevelt was living a lie.  He did some good things but when you are so busy hiding your crippling disease it makes a president vulnerable.  He should have never ran and when he became overwhelmed with his ilness he should have stepped down.  No one is that indespensable.  .
Click to expand...


Well except for NY's Emperor Bloomberg


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Yes, it's that time again!

Time for Progressives to either show us where McCarthy was wrong or drink a nice tall glass of shut the fuck up juice!

Come on, now.

Why was it OK that Roosevelt's economist adviser and assistant, Lauchlin Currie reported to Moscow, and sold out Chaing Kai Shek for histories greatest mass murderer Mao?

Please say something other than "My teachers taught me McCarthy was a bad man"


----------



## rightwinger

Pity Bump for poor ol Frankie



What?  How can you say that Frank!
Have you no shame???


----------



## HUGGY

Another "pity" bump.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJnKm6ftPu0[/ame]


----------



## Flagwavrusa

Gadawg73 said:


> Joe McCarthy was an alcoholic that fabricated everything he touched.
> My uncle was a construction worker in California working for movie studios. McCarthy labeled him and nundreds of others as communists without any evidence to support it. Uncle Bill and all the others were black listed and never worked another day in that industry. Thousands in the movie industry were blacklisted as communists.
> Name one that was right.
> Sure,McCarthy pointed out there were communists around. Well DUH. Even a blind squirrell finds a nut every once in a while.
> You peoplewill believe anything and are too young to know any better.



Communists? That want to fundamentally transform society? Here in America? Naaaaahh! McCarthy was obviously a nut.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Collectivism is a fact of American history, from the Pilgrims first three years at Plymouth to its triumph in the 1912 elections to its demonization in 1919 and the 1950s and since the 1980s.

Most of you flatly have no idea about what you talk.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

JakeStarkey said:


> Collectivism is a fact of American history, from the Pilgrims first three years at Plymouth to its triumph in the 1912 elections to its demonization in 1919 and the 1950s and since the 1980s.
> 
> Most of you flatly have no idea about what you talk.



Do you consider China under Mao a triumph?


----------



## HUGGY

Comon Frankie!!  You go girl!!!  Start a political movement like the tea baggers.  Base it on the horrible hated commies!!!  Like we don't have enough fear mongering going on ...  All the communists have transformed into psuedo capitalists..but make that no nevermind!!!

The Better Dead Than Red Party!!!

McCarthy's Revenge!!!!!!  Wooooo Hooo!!!!  

McCarthy..McCarthy...He's our man..
If he can't come back from the dead..
...and a horrible reputation.....

NOBODY CAN!!!!!!

Go Frankie!!...Go Frankie!!

It's your birthday!!   It's your birthday!!


----------



## frazzledgear

L.K.Eder said:


> starting shit, then leaving the room to booze is the sign of an american patriot and hero.



McCarthy was right and the fact he was in the process of exposing hundreds of committed communists -many of them the paid agents of the USSR - who had infiltrated our government including agencies dealing with encryption, code breaking, intelligence analysis and high level political appointees in positions of power in dozens of  importance government departments - was met with a concerted effort to destroy him in order to discredit what he was exposing about them.  And that campaign was deliberately waged by our left.  Which was not only highly successful -but continues to this very day.  McCarthy exposed the close ties between the liberal left in this country and the fact they not only shielded Soviet spies, but participated in helping the paid agents of the USSR into positions of government power and then continued trying to protect them from being exposed to the American public.  Exposing the paid agents of the Soviets threatened their ability to wage their secret war on the US.   

Our children are still being taught that this man was nothing but pure evil when in fact he discovered that our ENEMY had an ongoing campaign to infiltrate our government in order to undermine its effectiveness in countering USSR strategy and even its ability to successfully defend itself in the event of war.  An enemy that responded to this exposure -by waging a concerted and multi-faceted campaign to personally destroy McCarthy in the hopes it would also discredit what he was exposing.  This is the NORMAL tactics of the left anyway but when spearheaded and controlled by an enemy super power like the Soviet Union waged against a single man, it is truly formidable.  A single person stands no chance of survival and McCarthy was destroyed as the Soviet Union and the committed US left intended.  

And with patsies like you helping to do so, this lying ass character assassination will continue a lot longer.  The man was repeatedly accused of all sorts of immoralities and even criminal acts practically on a daily basis, tales about his drinking habits wildly exaggerated and even outright fabricated with each episode more lurid and revolting than the last most of it with no basis in reality and the rest taken out of context or wildly exaggerated.  Most of these accusations were made by "anonymous sources" but it was later revealed that many of the named sources were paid Soviet agents and people who turned out to be communist sympathizers.  The destruction was spearheaded by the USSR and carried out by our left acting in concert with paid and unpaid Soviet agents.  The missing memos are missing because THEY BACK UP EVERYTHING MCCARTHY HAD CLAIMED ALL ALONG AND REVEAL IT WAS FAR WORSE THAN EVEN MCCARTHY KNEW AT THE TIME!  It is something the left still doesn't want revealed because some of those declassified memos showed intercepted messages between Soviet agents hiding in this country and the USSR about how to destroy the man, they involve admissions of discovering paid Soviet agents holding high level political appointments inside dozens of US departments and agencies as well as being employed in high level positions in our most sensitive sub-departments of the defense department -including encryption, code-breaking, defense strategy and threat analysis.   Gee who was President during the theft of these declassified government memos from this time period - and what do we know about at least one Clinton buddy caught red-handed stealing AND DESTROYING OTHER DOCUMENTS from the National Archives?  No one should hold their breath waiting for an investigation into WHO stole these documents and no doubt destroyed them.  Gee what does that imply about who STILL feels the need to provide protection and cover-up to communists and continue the lying ass smear on McCarthy? No conservative would destroy these documents, that's for sure.  Maybe the thief believed stealing and destroying the documents would prevent that from being known -but a lot of people have SEEN those memos before they were stolen and have written about what they said.  But of course, if they are destroyed, those who have written about what was in them no longer have any reliable source to prove it really said what they claim, do they?   Meanwhile, Stage Two of the campaign is set to go if necessary -of discrediting those who already revealed portions of these declassified memos.  Fortunately for them, their first stage was so successful and the indoctrination of children in our public schools still ongoing so that few people question the left's deliberate character assassination of McCarthy.

It is a fact that the USSR had hundreds of PAID AGENTS both inside our government as well as holding positions of power with some of the most prominent and influential NEWSPAPERS in the country.  And together they worked to destroy this man entirely.  How would you have held up against that?   He was isolated and so savaged on a near daily basis that others came to fear for their own careers to even come to his defense.  His drinking became a real problem only after he was already destroyed.  But this is why the bible for the left "Rules for Radicals" says that because the left cannot win a debate about issues, they shouldn't hesitate to use deliberate character assassination even if it means total fabrication.  The left believes its goals to be SOOO "noble", that the use of ANY means justifies THEIR ends.  And in the case of McCarthy, it was to hide the existence and full extent of Soviet infiltration which is why they went all out on the man.    

McCarthy was a patriot, his concern was for OUR country and his actions were to that end.  While those who designed and actively participated in destroying the man -did so for the opposite reasons and motives.  Whose best interests were served by destroying this man - because it was not those of the United States.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

HUGGY said:


> Comon Frankie!!  You go girl!!!  Start a political movement like the tea baggers.  Base it on the horrible hated commies!!!  Like we don't have enough fear mongering going on ...  All the communists have transformed into psuedo capitalists..but make that no nevermind!!!
> 
> The Better Dead Than Red Party!!!
> 
> McCarthy's Revenge!!!!!!  Wooooo Hooo!!!!
> 
> McCarthy..McCarthy...He's our man..
> If he can't come back from the dead..
> ...and a horrible reputation.....
> 
> NOBODY CAN!!!!!!
> 
> Go Frankie!!...Go Frankie!!
> 
> It's your birthday!!   It's your birthday!!



Soviet agents at State convinced FDR to abandon Chang Kai Shek, who was actually fighting the Japanese with us during WWII, in favor of one of histories greatest mass murderers Mao.

It matters.


----------



## HUGGY

CrusaderFrank said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> Comon Frankie!!  You go girl!!!  Start a political movement like the tea baggers.  Base it on the horrible hated commies!!!  Like we don't have enough fear mongering going on ...  All the communists have transformed into psuedo capitalists..but make that no nevermind!!!
> 
> The Better Dead Than Red Party!!!
> 
> McCarthy's Revenge!!!!!!  Wooooo Hooo!!!!
> 
> McCarthy..McCarthy...He's our man..
> If he can't come back from the dead..
> ...and a horrible reputation.....
> 
> NOBODY CAN!!!!!!
> 
> Go Frankie!!...Go Frankie!!
> 
> It's your birthday!!   It's your birthday!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Soviet agents at State convinced FDR to abandon Chang Kai Shek, who was actually fighting the Japanese with us during WWII, in favor of one of histories greatest mass murderers Mao.
> 
> It matters.
Click to expand...


Ya..Ya..It matters.... and Pol Pot killled several million Cambodians.  It's a fucked up world Frankie and as I said before FDR was a weak cripple.  It was too bad that Ike was busy winning the war and couldn't step up to the presidency earlier.  There have been oceans of water under the bridge...our true heros have been named.  McCarthy was not one of them.


----------



## JakeStarkey

frazzledgear said:


> L.K.Eder said:
> 
> 
> 
> starting shit, then leaving the room to booze is the sign of an american patriot and hero.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> <snip of wacko far right nonsense>  .
Click to expand...


McCarthy was rarely right and surely was destroyed politically by conservative REPUBLICANS horrified by his anti-American rhetoric.

Any who defend him are spitting on American values.


----------



## rightwinger

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqQD4dzVkwk"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqQD4dzVkwk[/ame]


----------



## Wry Catcher

McCarthy was a drunk.  He destroyed the lives of many Americans and no amount of historical revisionsim will change that record.
The American RW is dangerous, remember, once the Communist Party had power in China and Russia, civil liberties disappeared and the new order determined everything.  The most conservative nations in the world in the 1950's and 1960's were China, the Soviet Union and the Eastern European Bloc.
Today, the most conservatives nations are N. Korea, Iran, and Saudi Arabia.
Yes, it can happen here.


----------



## rightwinger

frazzledgear said:


> L.K.Eder said:
> 
> 
> 
> starting shit, then leaving the room to booze is the sign of an american patriot and hero.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> McCarthy was right and the fact he was in the process of exposing hundreds of committed communists -many of them the paid agents of the USSR - who had infiltrated our government including agencies dealing with encryption, code breaking, intelligence analysis and high level political appointees in positions of power in dozens of  importance government departments - was met with a concerted effort to destroy him in order to discredit what he was exposing about them.  And that campaign was deliberately waged by our left.  Which was not only highly successful -but continues to this very day.  McCarthy exposed the close ties between the liberal left in this country and the fact they not only shielded Soviet spies, but participated in helping the paid agents of the USSR into positions of government power and then continued trying to protect them from being exposed to the American public.  Exposing the paid agents of the Soviets threatened their ability to wage their secret war on the US.
> 
> Our children are still being taught that this man was nothing but pure evil when in fact he discovered that our ENEMY had an ongoing campaign to infiltrate our government in order to undermine its effectiveness in countering USSR strategy and even its ability to successfully defend itself in the event of war.  An enemy that responded to this exposure -by waging a concerted and multi-faceted campaign to personally destroy McCarthy in the hopes it would also discredit what he was exposing.  This is the NORMAL tactics of the left anyway but when spearheaded and controlled by an enemy super power like the Soviet Union waged against a single man, it is truly formidable.  A single person stands no chance of survival and McCarthy was destroyed as the Soviet Union and the committed US left intended.
> 
> And with patsies like you helping to do so, this lying ass character assassination will continue a lot longer.  The man was repeatedly accused of all sorts of immoralities and even criminal acts practically on a daily basis, tales about his drinking habits wildly exaggerated and even outright fabricated with each episode more lurid and revolting than the last most of it with no basis in reality and the rest taken out of context or wildly exaggerated.  Most of these accusations were made by "anonymous sources" but it was later revealed that many of the named sources were paid Soviet agents and people who turned out to be communist sympathizers.  The destruction was spearheaded by the USSR and carried out by our left acting in concert with paid and unpaid Soviet agents.  The missing memos are missing because THEY BACK UP EVERYTHING MCCARTHY HAD CLAIMED ALL ALONG AND REVEAL IT WAS FAR WORSE THAN EVEN MCCARTHY KNEW AT THE TIME!  It is something the left still doesn't want revealed because some of those declassified memos showed intercepted messages between Soviet agents hiding in this country and the USSR about how to destroy the man, they involve admissions of discovering paid Soviet agents holding high level political appointments inside dozens of US departments and agencies as well as being employed in high level positions in our most sensitive sub-departments of the defense department -including encryption, code-breaking, defense strategy and threat analysis.   Gee who was President during the theft of these declassified government memos from this time period - and what do we know about at least one Clinton buddy caught red-handed stealing AND DESTROYING OTHER DOCUMENTS from the National Archives?  No one should hold their breath waiting for an investigation into WHO stole these documents and no doubt destroyed them.  Gee what does that imply about who STILL feels the need to provide protection and cover-up to communists and continue the lying ass smear on McCarthy? No conservative would destroy these documents, that's for sure.  Maybe the thief believed stealing and destroying the documents would prevent that from being known -but a lot of people have SEEN those memos before they were stolen and have written about what they said.  But of course, if they are destroyed, those who have written about what was in them no longer have any reliable source to prove it really said what they claim, do they?   Meanwhile, Stage Two of the campaign is set to go if necessary -of discrediting those who already revealed portions of these declassified memos.  Fortunately for them, their first stage was so successful and the indoctrination of children in our public schools still ongoing so that few people question the left's deliberate character assassination of McCarthy.
> 
> It is a fact that the USSR had hundreds of PAID AGENTS both inside our government as well as holding positions of power with some of the most prominent and influential NEWSPAPERS in the country.  And together they worked to destroy this man entirely.  How would you have held up against that?   He was isolated and so savaged on a near daily basis that others came to fear for their own careers to even come to his defense.  His drinking became a real problem only after he was already destroyed.  But this is why the bible for the left "Rules for Radicals" says that because the left cannot win a debate about issues, they shouldn't hesitate to use deliberate character assassination even if it means total fabrication.  The left believes its goals to be SOOO "noble", that the use of ANY means justifies THEIR ends.  And in the case of McCarthy, it was to hide the existence and full extent of Soviet infiltration which is why they went all out on the man.
> 
> McCarthy was a patriot, his concern was for OUR country and his actions were to that end.  While those who designed and actively participated in destroying the man -did so for the opposite reasons and motives.  Whose best interests were served by destroying this man - because it was not those of the United States.
Click to expand...


I have a list of 100 card carrying Communists who post on this Message Board....


----------



## JakeStarkey

I have a list of 100 card-carrying fascist Tea Party members who post on this list.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

HUGGY said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> Comon Frankie!!  You go girl!!!  Start a political movement like the tea baggers.  Base it on the horrible hated commies!!!  Like we don't have enough fear mongering going on ...  All the communists have transformed into psuedo capitalists..but make that no nevermind!!!
> 
> The Better Dead Than Red Party!!!
> 
> McCarthy's Revenge!!!!!!  Wooooo Hooo!!!!
> 
> McCarthy..McCarthy...He's our man..
> If he can't come back from the dead..
> ...and a horrible reputation.....
> 
> NOBODY CAN!!!!!!
> 
> Go Frankie!!...Go Frankie!!
> 
> It's your birthday!!   It's your birthday!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Soviet agents at State convinced FDR to abandon Chang Kai Shek, who was actually fighting the Japanese with us during WWII, in favor of one of histories greatest mass murderers Mao.
> 
> It matters.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ya..Ya..It matters.... and Pol Pot killled several million Cambodians.  It's a fucked up world Frankie and as I said before FDR was a weak cripple.  It was too bad that Ike was busy winning the war and couldn't step up to the presidency earlier.  There have been oceans of water under the bridge...our true heros have been named.  McCarthy was not one of them.
Click to expand...


Had FDR and Truman not been so busy sucking up to Staling and Mao it would be a whole different world. You see that don't you? 

The world would be a better place if China were Free under Shek and Mao and his inbreds were confined to North Korea.

The world would have been a better place if we objected to the Soviet capture of Poland in 1939 and the attacks on Finland, Estonia and Latvia. 

McCarthy wanted to know why we were choosing Communists and it turns out it was because our State Department was working for the wrong country


----------



## rightwinger

CrusaderFrank said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Soviet agents at State convinced FDR to abandon Chang Kai Shek, who was actually fighting the Japanese with us during WWII, in favor of one of histories greatest mass murderers Mao.
> 
> It matters.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ya..Ya..It matters.... and Pol Pot killled several million Cambodians.  It's a fucked up world Frankie and as I said before FDR was a weak cripple.  It was too bad that Ike was busy winning the war and couldn't step up to the presidency earlier.  There have been oceans of water under the bridge...our true heros have been named.  McCarthy was not one of them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Had FDR and Truman not been so busy sucking up to Staling and Mao it would be a whole different world. You see that don't you?
> 
> The world would be a better place if China were Free under Shek and Mao and his inbreds were confined to North Korea.
> 
> The world would have been a better place if we objected to the Soviet capture of Poland in 1939 and the attacks on Finland, Estonia and Latvia.
> 
> McCarthy wanted to know why we were choosing Communists and it turns out it was because our State Department was working for the wrong country
Click to expand...


Have you no decency???


----------



## CrusaderFrank

JakeStarkey said:


> frazzledgear said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> L.K.Eder said:
> 
> 
> 
> starting shit, then leaving the room to booze is the sign of an american patriot and hero.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> <snip of wacko far right nonsense>  .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> McCarthy was rarely right and surely was destroyed politically by conservative REPUBLICANS horrified by his anti-American rhetoric.
> 
> Any who defend him are spitting on American values.
Click to expand...


Rarely right? The Soviets verified that McCarthy was 100% correct and actually understated the extent of the penetration.

You are just parroting back what your parents and teacher told you, you were lied to

What was he "wrong" about?


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Wry Catcher said:


> McCarthy was a drunk.  He destroyed the lives of many Americans and no amount of historical revisionsim will change that record.
> The American RW is dangerous, remember, once the Communist Party had power in China and Russia, civil liberties disappeared and the new order determined everything.  The most conservative nations in the world in the 1950's and 1960's were China, the Soviet Union and the Eastern European Bloc.
> Today, the most conservatives nations are N. Korea, Iran, and Saudi Arabia.
> Yes, it can happen here.



1. Name one life destroyed by McCarthy

2. The Communists came to power in China thanks to the very people McCarthy warned us about: Owen Lattimore, Lauchlin Currire, John Stewart Service, Sol Adler. They convinced FDR to abandon Shek in favor of Mao.  That's a fact. It matters and you can look it up.

3. Nothing else you said makes any sense or is worth a response


----------



## CrusaderFrank

rightwinger said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ya..Ya..It matters.... and Pol Pot killled several million Cambodians.  It's a fucked up world Frankie and as I said before FDR was a weak cripple.  It was too bad that Ike was busy winning the war and couldn't step up to the presidency earlier.  There have been oceans of water under the bridge...our true heros have been named.  McCarthy was not one of them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Had FDR and Truman not been so busy sucking up to Staling and Mao it would be a whole different world. You see that don't you?
> 
> The world would be a better place if China were Free under Shek and Mao and his inbreds were confined to North Korea.
> 
> The world would have been a better place if we objected to the Soviet capture of Poland in 1939 and the attacks on Finland, Estonia and Latvia.
> 
> McCarthy wanted to know why we were choosing Communists and it turns out it was because our State Department was working for the wrong country
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Have you no decency???
Click to expand...


I have facts. 

I have the USSR admitting McCarthy was correct.

You should catch up on current event because the old "Cause we say so" doesn't fly and makes you look very foolish in the process


----------



## JakeStarkey

Nope, CF has no decency.  In that sense he is hand in hand with bigrebnc.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

JakeStarkey said:


> Nope, CF has no decency.  In that sense he is hand in hand with bigrebnc.



Who needs decency when the Soviets admitted McCarthy was correct?  You're giving a response that was out of date 60 years ago!

You look very silly too!

Did you know that the Soviets admitted they had a robust spy ring at US State?


----------



## Old Rocks

Joe McCarthy was a lying demagogic alcoholic. The ol' "Tailgunner" was never a tailgunner. 

He destroyed lives without reason. He will always be remembered as a black mark in American history.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Old Rocks said:


> Joe McCarthy was a lying demagogic alcoholic. The ol' "Tailgunner" was never a tailgunner.
> 
> He destroyed lives without reason. He will always be remembered as a black mark in American history.



You're a political Flat Earther.

You are spouting the nonsense of a dead political church.

The Progressive line that "McCarthy was wrong and a bad, bad man" has been debunked by the Soviets themselves with a big assist from tens of thousands of pages of FBI files.

You need to get educated.


----------



## HUGGY

CrusaderFrank said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> McCarthy was a drunk.  He destroyed the lives of many Americans and no amount of historical revisionsim will change that record.
> The American RW is dangerous, remember, once the Communist Party had power in China and Russia, civil liberties disappeared and the new order determined everything.  The most conservative nations in the world in the 1950's and 1960's were China, the Soviet Union and the Eastern European Bloc.
> Today, the most conservatives nations are N. Korea, Iran, and Saudi Arabia.
> Yes, it can happen here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1.* Name one life destroyed by McCarthy*
> 2. The Communists came to power in China thanks to the very people McCarthy warned us about: Owen Lattimore, Lauchlin Currire, John Stewart Service, Sol Adler. They convinced FDR to abandon Shek in favor of Mao.  That's a fact. It matters and you can look it up.
> 
> 3. Nothing else you said makes any sense or is worth a response
Click to expand...


Robs original wife on the Dick Van Dyke show.  She was fired accused of being a communist.  Her career was ruined.

correction..it was "The Honeymooners".  The woman was Pert Kelton


----------



## CrusaderFrank

HUGGY said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> McCarthy was a drunk.  He destroyed the lives of many Americans and no amount of historical revisionsim will change that record.
> The American RW is dangerous, remember, once the Communist Party had power in China and Russia, civil liberties disappeared and the new order determined everything.  The most conservative nations in the world in the 1950's and 1960's were China, the Soviet Union and the Eastern European Bloc.
> Today, the most conservatives nations are N. Korea, Iran, and Saudi Arabia.
> Yes, it can happen here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1.* Name one life destroyed by McCarthy*
> 2. The Communists came to power in China thanks to the very people McCarthy warned us about: Owen Lattimore, Lauchlin Currire, John Stewart Service, Sol Adler. They convinced FDR to abandon Shek in favor of Mao.  That's a fact. It matters and you can look it up.
> 
> 3. Nothing else you said makes any sense or is worth a response
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Robs original wife on the Dick Van Dyke show.  She was fired accused of being a communist.  Her career was ruined.
Click to expand...


Was that a serious response?


----------



## frazzledgear

HUGGY said:


> Comon Frankie!!  You go girl!!!  Start a political movement like the tea baggers.  Base it on the horrible hated commies!!!  Like we don't have enough fear mongering going on ...  All the communists have transformed into psuedo capitalists..but make that no nevermind!!!
> 
> The Better Dead Than Red Party!!!
> 
> McCarthy's Revenge!!!!!!  Wooooo Hooo!!!!
> 
> McCarthy..McCarthy...He's our man..
> If he can't come back from the dead..
> ...and a horrible reputation.....
> 
> NOBODY CAN!!!!!!
> 
> Go Frankie!!...Go Frankie!!
> 
> It's your birthday!!   It's your birthday!!



Wow, doesn't take much to pull the wool over your eyes, does it?  There is nothing "capitalistic" about communist China, sorry.  The fact the Chinese communist government has changed from an arbitrary decision about what and how much will be produced and at what price after seeing what a loser strategy that turned out to be for the Soviets -to taking into consideration supply-and-demand as the guide for determining how much to produce and at what price -doesn't make it even "pseudo-capitalistic"!  That is just a basic principle for figuring out how much to produce and at what price that rates right up with COMMON SENSE.   But that will NEVER alter on ANY level WHO OWNS IT.  Let me see, the nation that pays tribute and forced near-idolatry of THE single worst mass murderer in human history, where the people still have no right of free speech, no free press, no right of assembly, no right to petition their government, no right to bear arms, no religious freedom, no right to free and open choice of their own leaders, no right to freely travel even inside their own country, where government still owns the means of production and routinely imprisons political opponents just like every fucking communist regime that ever existed on the planet MUST do in order to keep a stranglehold on power -is still a communist nation.   (It begs the question about why children are taught about the Holocaust and the mass murders committed by Hitler -but are INCREDIBLY ignorant about the fact the two biggest mass murderers in history were both COMMUNISTS from the 20th century whose combined slaughter of human beings was more than 6 times the number slaughtered by Hitler.  I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact the left, which openly admires communism - controls our public school system.  That would be such a major breach of the public trust to fail to teach our children about the single most mass murdering political and government system to ever have existed in history -now wouldn't it?) 

Just because the Chinese communist government has implemented a a strategy they cheerfully call "state capitalism" does not mean anything has substantially changed whatsoever -it was worded that way for pathetic stooges like you who have a desperate need to pretend life over there as the government owned slave is really pretty much like life here.  Oh sure, its really no different.  Except for the fact they exist as the state owned slaves of the communist government, lack of all your freedoms, risk imprisonment if they speak out against their government and lack the ability to get the hell out of there and go live and work somewhere else they prefer -as free people can and do all the time.   Yeah right -keep telling yourself its really all pretty much just the same there as it is here.  You are such a tool.  

So what's the slogan of YOUR party?  "Life as a free man is SO overrated"?    I guess we know who here is NOT going to go all Patrick Henry on us, huh!  ROFL


----------



## HUGGY

CrusaderFrank said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1.* Name one life destroyed by McCarthy*
> 2. The Communists came to power in China thanks to the very people McCarthy warned us about: Owen Lattimore, Lauchlin Currire, John Stewart Service, Sol Adler. They convinced FDR to abandon Shek in favor of Mao.  That's a fact. It matters and you can look it up.
> 
> 3. Nothing else you said makes any sense or is worth a response
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Robs original wife on the Dick Van Dyke show.  She was fired accused of being a communist.  Her career was ruined.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Was that a serious response?
Click to expand...


Yes.


----------



## HUGGY

frazzledgear said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> Comon Frankie!!  You go girl!!!  Start a political movement like the tea baggers.  Base it on the horrible hated commies!!!  Like we don't have enough fear mongering going on ...  All the communists have transformed into psuedo capitalists..but make that no nevermind!!!
> 
> The Better Dead Than Red Party!!!
> 
> McCarthy's Revenge!!!!!!  Wooooo Hooo!!!!
> 
> McCarthy..McCarthy...He's our man..
> If he can't come back from the dead..
> ...and a horrible reputation.....
> 
> NOBODY CAN!!!!!!
> 
> Go Frankie!!...Go Frankie!!
> 
> It's your birthday!!   It's your birthday!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, doesn't take much to pull the wool over your eyes, does it?  There is nothing "capitalistic" about communist China, sorry.  The fact the Chinese communist government has changed from an arbitrary decision about what and how much will be produced and at what price after seeing what a loser strategy that turned out to be for the Soviets -to taking into consideration supply-and-demand as the guide for determining how much to produce and at what price -doesn't make it even "pseudo-capitalistic"!  That is just a basic principle for figuring out how much to produce and at what price that rates right up with COMMON SENSE.   But that will NEVER alter on ANY level WHO OWNS IT.  Let me see, the nation that pays tribute and forced near-idolatry of THE single worst mass murderer in human history, where the people still have no right of free speech, no free press, no right of assembly, no right to petition their government, no right to bear arms, no religious freedom, no right to free and open choice of their own leaders, no right to freely travel even inside their own country, where government still owns the means of production and routinely imprisons political opponents just like every fucking communist regime that ever existed on the planet MUST do in order to keep a stranglehold on power -is still a communist nation.   (It begs the question about why children are taught about the Holocaust and the mass murders committed by Hitler -but are INCREDIBLY ignorant about the fact the two biggest mass murderers in history were both COMMUNISTS from the 20th century whose combined slaughter of human beings was more than 6 times the number slaughtered by Hitler.  I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact the left, which openly admires communism - controls our public school system.  That would be such a major breach of the public trust to fail to teach our children about the single most mass murdering political and government system to ever have existed in history -now wouldn't it?)
> 
> Just because the Chinese communist government has implemented a a strategy they cheerfully call "state capitalism" does not mean anything has substantially changed whatsoever -it was worded that way for pathetic stooges like you who have a desperate need to pretend life over there as the government owned slave is really pretty much like life here.  Oh sure, its really no different.  Except for the fact they exist as the state owned slaves of the communist government, lack of all your freedoms, risk imprisonment if they speak out against their government and lack the ability to get the hell out of there and go live and work somewhere else they prefer -as free people can and do all the time.   Yeah right -keep telling yourself its really all pretty much just the same there as it is here.  You are such a tool.
> 
> So what's the slogan of YOUR party?  "Life as a free man is SO overrated"?    I guess we know who here is NOT going to go all Patrick Henry on us, huh!  ROFL
Click to expand...


That's a lot of gas about someone you do not know.  My family has always been republican as long as I have been alive.  In the 50's we(our family) took in two mainland Chinese families.  I think I might know more than you think about the plight of those that escaped Comminism in China.  Don't try and lecture people you do not know.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Old Rocks said:


> Joe McCarthy was a lying demagogic alcoholic. The ol' "Tailgunner" was never a tailgunner.
> 
> He destroyed lives without reason. He will always be remembered as a black mark in American history.



Actually, he was.  Joseph McCarthy enlisted in the Marine Corps, despite being exempt from the draft, spent most of his service as an intelligence officer, and flew approximately a dozen missions.  While there has been disagreement about the exact number of missions and about the citations he received for his service, it is a fact that he did fly missions as a tailgunner.

As for destroying lives "without a reason", I'd say trying to protect the nation from spies is actually a pretty good reason.


----------



## Cecilie1200

HUGGY said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> McCarthy was a drunk.  He destroyed the lives of many Americans and no amount of historical revisionsim will change that record.
> The American RW is dangerous, remember, once the Communist Party had power in China and Russia, civil liberties disappeared and the new order determined everything.  The most conservative nations in the world in the 1950's and 1960's were China, the Soviet Union and the Eastern European Bloc.
> Today, the most conservatives nations are N. Korea, Iran, and Saudi Arabia.
> Yes, it can happen here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1.* Name one life destroyed by McCarthy*
> 2. The Communists came to power in China thanks to the very people McCarthy warned us about: Owen Lattimore, Lauchlin Currire, John Stewart Service, Sol Adler. They convinced FDR to abandon Shek in favor of Mao.  That's a fact. It matters and you can look it up.
> 
> 3. Nothing else you said makes any sense or is worth a response
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Robs original wife on the Dick Van Dyke show.  She was fired accused of being a communist.  Her career was ruined.
Click to expand...


Who in the hell are you talking about?


----------



## HUGGY

Cecilie1200 said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1.* Name one life destroyed by McCarthy*
> 2. The Communists came to power in China thanks to the very people McCarthy warned us about: Owen Lattimore, Lauchlin Currire, John Stewart Service, Sol Adler. They convinced FDR to abandon Shek in favor of Mao.  That's a fact. It matters and you can look it up.
> 
> 3. Nothing else you said makes any sense or is worth a response
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Robs original wife on the Dick Van Dyke show.  She was fired accused of being a communist.  Her career was ruined.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Who in the hell are you talking about?
Click to expand...


My bad...It was the "Honeymooners"

In 1951, "The Honeymooners" was first seen as a sketch within DuMont's "Cavalcade of Stars", with *Pert Kelton *originating the role of Alice and with Art Carney's first appearance as a cop. (See season 12 - Special: Really Lost Debut Episodes).

Kelton wwas black balled for being suspected of being a communist.

I recently saw a PBS special on the beginnings of television.  The info was in the special including the references to the allegations of her being a communist.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

HUGGY said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> Robs original wife on the Dick Van Dyke show.  She was fired accused of being a communist.  Her career was ruined.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who in the hell are you talking about?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My bad...It was the "Honeymooners"
> 
> In 1951, "The Honeymooners" was first seen as a sketch within DuMont's "Cavalcade of Stars", with *Pert Kelton *originating the role of Alice and with Art Carney's first appearance as a cop. (See season 12 - Special: Really Lost Debut Episodes).
> 
> Kelton wwas black balled for being suspected of being a communist.
> 
> I recently saw a PBS special on the beginnings of television.  The info was in the special including the references to the allegations of her being a communist.
Click to expand...


Pay close attention because you've been lied to your entire lie about Joe McCarthy.

McCarthy stated that there were Communist spies at the US State Department.  He quoted from the Klaus memo and other sources also dealing with Soviet penetration of State.

That's it!

So unless the person you're talking about worked at the State Department it had NOTHING to do with McCarthy's Central Thesis: Soviet penetration of US State!

McCarthy gave his first speech in Feb, 1950 (all copies of the local newspaper that carried the speech have been purged from the National Archives). The ChiComs, the very people Communists at State Department put in charge of China, started the Korean War killing US Marines in June of that same year.

That's the background, that's the time line, those are the facts. Mrs Petrie or Kramden have NOTHING to do with any of it except as diversion.


----------



## HUGGY

CrusaderFrank said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who in the hell are you talking about?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My bad...It was the "Honeymooners"
> 
> In 1951, "The Honeymooners" was first seen as a sketch within DuMont's "Cavalcade of Stars", with *Pert Kelton *originating the role of Alice and with Art Carney's first appearance as a cop. (See season 12 - Special: Really Lost Debut Episodes).
> 
> Kelton wwas black balled for being suspected of being a communist.
> 
> I recently saw a PBS special on the beginnings of television.  The info was in the special including the references to the allegations of her being a communist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Pay close attention because you've been lied to your entire lie about Joe McCarthy.
> 
> McCarthy stated that there were Communist spies at the US State Department.  He quoted from the Klaus memo and other sources also dealing with Soviet penetration of State.
> 
> That's it!
> 
> So unless the person you're talking about worked at the State Department it had NOTHING to do with McCarthy's Central Thesis: Soviet penetration of US State!
> 
> McCarthy gave his first speech in Feb, 1950 (all copies of the local newspaper that carried the speech have been purged from the National Archives). The ChiComs, the very people Communists at State Department put in charge of China, started the Korean War killing US Marines in June of that same year.
> 
> That's the background, that's the time line, those are the facts. Mrs Petrie or Kramden have NOTHING to do with any of it except as diversion.
Click to expand...


I honestly thought this thread was started as some bizarre attention getting ploy.  It seems, because of your persistance, that you are serious.  OK.

I'm still not sure why you chose to ressurect McCarthy but I'll continue to play along because I too am serious about my opposition to the venture.

Perhaps the debate would be better framed in context if layed over the diffferences of public and government mindset of the times between then and now.

If you think the Americans came together over 9/11 you might well compare our resolve and back to the wall fear as a cub scout sleep over to the all consuming dedication to defeating the Axis.  Our country wasn't completely threatened by Al Qaeda.  The Japs and the Germans were a real threat to take over the world.  They damn near pulled it off.  The time frame was similar as now in that it was only a few years ago as 9/11 is to our times.

We felt betrayed by the commies.  Then they got nukes.  The soviets were willing to sacrifice millions defending their homeland which was not lost on us.  The whole cold war thing was shaping up as a horrible never ending nightmare of potential instant annihilation with madmen hovering over hair triggers.

I don't dispute the absolute necessity at the time to ferret out spies.  What was heinous was McCarthy's methods and grandstanding.  

We were trying to get back to being Americans.  It was just months since the Japonese Americans were released from internment camps.  McCarthy's ranting and ravings was turning us back into the monsters defending our own lives.  His efforts reached out much farther than the senate hearings.  They gave official liscense to jingoism that did in fact ruin many innocents lives.  I think the most disturbing aspect of this sad revival is yours and others attempts to deny the harm.


----------



## Cecilie1200

HUGGY said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> Robs original wife on the Dick Van Dyke show.  She was fired accused of being a communist.  Her career was ruined.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who in the hell are you talking about?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My bad...It was the "Honeymooners"
> 
> In 1951, "The Honeymooners" was first seen as a sketch within DuMont's "Cavalcade of Stars", with *Pert Kelton *originating the role of Alice and with Art Carney's first appearance as a cop. (See season 12 - Special: Really Lost Debut Episodes).
> 
> Kelton wwas black balled for being suspected of being a communist.
> 
> I recently saw a PBS special on the beginnings of television.  The info was in the special including the references to the allegations of her being a communist.
Click to expand...


Ummm, it would also be your bad because . . . stay with me here . . . JOE MCCARTHY NEVER HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH HOLLYWOOD!

Could you people write that down somewhere so I don't have to keep repeating it?


----------



## HUGGY

Cecilie1200 said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Who in the hell are you talking about?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My bad...It was the "Honeymooners"
> 
> In 1951, "The Honeymooners" was first seen as a sketch within DuMont's "Cavalcade of Stars", with *Pert Kelton *originating the role of Alice and with Art Carney's first appearance as a cop. (See season 12 - Special: Really Lost Debut Episodes).
> 
> Kelton wwas black balled for being suspected of being a communist.
> 
> I recently saw a PBS special on the beginnings of television.  The info was in the special including the references to the allegations of her being a communist.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ummm, it would also be your bad because . . . stay with me here . . . JOE MCCARTHY NEVER HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH HOLLYWOOD!
> 
> Could you people write that down somewhere so I don't have to keep repeating it?
Click to expand...


You are wrong sugar tits.  The movie industry was under the grip of government censors during and after WWII.  They were frightened to death of the red scare being stirred up by McCarthy and over-reacted to prevent more government intrusion.  The black balling which you have denied was very real and a direct result of McCarthy's efforts.


----------



## Cecilie1200

HUGGY said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> My bad...It was the "Honeymooners"
> 
> In 1951, "The Honeymooners" was first seen as a sketch within DuMont's "Cavalcade of Stars", with *Pert Kelton *originating the role of Alice and with Art Carney's first appearance as a cop. (See season 12 - Special: Really Lost Debut Episodes).
> 
> Kelton wwas black balled for being suspected of being a communist.
> 
> I recently saw a PBS special on the beginnings of television.  The info was in the special including the references to the allegations of her being a communist.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ummm, it would also be your bad because . . . stay with me here . . . JOE MCCARTHY NEVER HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH HOLLYWOOD!
> 
> Could you people write that down somewhere so I don't have to keep repeating it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are wrong sugar tits.  The movie industry was under the grip of government censors during and after WWII.  They were frightened to death of the red scare being stirred up by McCarthy and over-reacted to prevent more government intrusion.  The black balling which you have denied was very real and a direct result of McCarthy's efforts.
Click to expand...


I'm not wrong, ass clown.  The HUAC started its investigations of Hollywood before McCarthy was ever even elected to the Senate, so trying to pretend that McCarthy was the sole reason for and instigator of anti-Communism in the United States is almost as pathetic as you believing it's okay to address women in that offensive, sexually harassing manner.

McCarthy was not responsible for Pert Kelton.  You're a misogynistic dickwad.  Case closed.


----------



## HUGGY

Cecilie1200 said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ummm, it would also be your bad because . . . stay with me here . . . JOE MCCARTHY NEVER HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH HOLLYWOOD!
> 
> Could you people write that down somewhere so I don't have to keep repeating it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are wrong sugar tits.  The movie industry was under the grip of government censors during and after WWII.  They were frightened to death of the red scare being stirred up by McCarthy and over-reacted to prevent more government intrusion.  The black balling which you have denied was very real and a direct result of McCarthy's efforts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm not wrong, ass clown.  The HUAC started its investigations of Hollywood before McCarthy was ever even elected to the Senate, so trying to pretend that McCarthy was the sole reason for and instigator of anti-Communism in the United States is almost as pathetic as you believing it's okay to address women in that offensive, sexually harassing manner.
> 
> McCarthy was not responsible for Pert Kelton.  You're a misogynistic dickwad.  Case closed.
Click to expand...


LOL...ass-clown..maybe.  Misogynistic..hardly.  Most women adore me for my tireless ability to listen and empathise.  

It was a simple ploy to get a more timely response from you.  The added bonus of you actually staying on topic in your reply was an added value.

I have never maintained that McCarthy was solely responsible for the red scare.  My take on this subject is simply that he is not a hero.  If you want the case closed take it up with Frankie.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

HUGGY said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> My bad...It was the "Honeymooners"
> 
> In 1951, "The Honeymooners" was first seen as a sketch within DuMont's "Cavalcade of Stars", with *Pert Kelton *originating the role of Alice and with Art Carney's first appearance as a cop. (See season 12 - Special: Really Lost Debut Episodes).
> 
> Kelton wwas black balled for being suspected of being a communist.
> 
> I recently saw a PBS special on the beginnings of television.  The info was in the special including the references to the allegations of her being a communist.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pay close attention because you've been lied to your entire lie about Joe McCarthy.
> 
> McCarthy stated that there were Communist spies at the US State Department.  He quoted from the Klaus memo and other sources also dealing with Soviet penetration of State.
> 
> That's it!
> 
> So unless the person you're talking about worked at the State Department it had NOTHING to do with McCarthy's Central Thesis: Soviet penetration of US State!
> 
> McCarthy gave his first speech in Feb, 1950 (all copies of the local newspaper that carried the speech have been purged from the National Archives). The ChiComs, the very people Communists at State Department put in charge of China, started the Korean War killing US Marines in June of that same year.
> 
> That's the background, that's the time line, those are the facts. Mrs Petrie or Kramden have NOTHING to do with any of it except as diversion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I honestly thought this thread was started as some bizarre attention getting ploy.  It seems, because of your persistance, that you are serious.  OK.
> 
> I'm still not sure why you chose to ressurect McCarthy but I'll continue to play along because I too am serious about my opposition to the venture.
> 
> Perhaps the debate would be better framed in context if layed over the diffferences of public and government mindset of the times between then and now.
> 
> If you think the Americans came together over 9/11 you might well compare our resolve and back to the wall fear as a cub scout sleep over to the all consuming dedication to defeating the Axis.  Our country wasn't completely threatened by Al Qaeda.  The Japs and the Germans were a real threat to take over the world.  They damn near pulled it off.  The time frame was similar as now in that it was only a few years ago as 9/11 is to our times.
> 
> We felt betrayed by the commies.  Then they got nukes.  The soviets were willing to sacrifice millions defending their homeland which was not lost on us.  The whole cold war thing was shaping up as a horrible never ending nightmare of potential instant annihilation with madmen hovering over hair triggers.
> 
> I don't dispute the absolute necessity at the time to ferret out spies.  What was heinous was McCarthy's methods and grandstanding.
> 
> We were trying to get back to being Americans.  It was just months since the Japonese Americans were released from internment camps.  McCarthy's ranting and ravings was turning us back into the monsters defending our own lives.  His efforts reached out much farther than the senate hearings.  They gave official liscense to jingoism that did in fact ruin many innocents lives.  I think the most disturbing aspect of this sad revival is yours and others attempts to deny the harm.
Click to expand...


Just for five minute will you please take the time to read through and think about what happened before you reflexively resort to the McCarthy hatred?

Since the New Deal the Communists made a high priority of infiltrating the US Government and they succeeded beyond anyone's wildest imagination! 

Once again, they turned China over to Mao!  They goaded the USA into conflict with Japan, they gave Yugoslavia to Tito!  

This was the work of people who should have been seated next to the Rosenbergs


----------



## HUGGY

CrusaderFrank said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Pay close attention because you've been lied to your entire lie about Joe McCarthy.
> 
> McCarthy stated that there were Communist spies at the US State Department.  He quoted from the Klaus memo and other sources also dealing with Soviet penetration of State.
> 
> That's it!
> 
> So unless the person you're talking about worked at the State Department it had NOTHING to do with McCarthy's Central Thesis: Soviet penetration of US State!
> 
> McCarthy gave his first speech in Feb, 1950 (all copies of the local newspaper that carried the speech have been purged from the National Archives). The ChiComs, the very people Communists at State Department put in charge of China, started the Korean War killing US Marines in June of that same year.
> 
> That's the background, that's the time line, those are the facts. Mrs Petrie or Kramden have NOTHING to do with any of it except as diversion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I honestly thought this thread was started as some bizarre attention getting ploy.  It seems, because of your persistance, that you are serious.  OK.
> 
> I'm still not sure why you chose to ressurect McCarthy but I'll continue to play along because I too am serious about my opposition to the venture.
> 
> Perhaps the debate would be better framed in context if layed over the diffferences of public and government mindset of the times between then and now.
> 
> If you think the Americans came together over 9/11 you might well compare our resolve and back to the wall fear as a cub scout sleep over to the all consuming dedication to defeating the Axis.  Our country wasn't completely threatened by Al Qaeda.  The Japs and the Germans were a real threat to take over the world.  They damn near pulled it off.  The time frame was similar as now in that it was only a few years ago as 9/11 is to our times.
> 
> We felt betrayed by the commies.  Then they got nukes.  The soviets were willing to sacrifice millions defending their homeland which was not lost on us.  The whole cold war thing was shaping up as a horrible never ending nightmare of potential instant annihilation with madmen hovering over hair triggers.
> 
> I don't dispute the absolute necessity at the time to ferret out spies.  What was heinous was McCarthy's methods and grandstanding.
> 
> We were trying to get back to being Americans.  It was just months since the Japonese Americans were released from internment camps.  McCarthy's ranting and ravings was turning us back into the monsters defending our own lives.  His efforts reached out much farther than the senate hearings.  They gave official liscense to jingoism that did in fact ruin many innocents lives.  I think the most disturbing aspect of this sad revival is yours and others attempts to deny the harm.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Just for five minute will you please take the time to read through and think about what happened before you reflexively resort to the McCarthy hatred?
> 
> Since the New Deal the Communists made a high priority of infiltrating the US Government and they succeeded beyond anyone's wildest imagination!
> 
> Once again, they turned China over to Mao!  They goaded the USA into conflict with Japan, they gave Yugoslavia to Tito!
> 
> This was the work of people who should have been seated next to the Rosenbergs
Click to expand...


Surely after you have taken the time to read my responses you do not think I am soft on spies soviet or otherwise.  I repeat.  They should be and were in many cases discovered, ...removed and...executed.  As I stated several times one of my dad's best friends did just that for the government.  "Ben" had my admiration for the work that he did.  I had many conversations with him.  He was not some crazy reactionary.  He was thoughtful and professional unlike McCarthy who was a dangerous drunken grandstanding self aggrandising buffoon.  I wont say that McCarthy was the worst American that ever lived.  Frankly he was not unlike Glenn Beck but more so in a time when his actions did not have much opposition and Americans were vulnerable to his vile and cowardly attacks.

We do not totally dissagree on the facts.  We dissagree on the harm McCarthy recklessly caused.


----------



## JakeStarkey

I agree totally with Huggy;s conclusion.  McCarthy recklessly caused harm (to many who were innocent) to further his career.  That is simply not at question.


----------



## Cecilie1200

HUGGY said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> I honestly thought this thread was started as some bizarre attention getting ploy.  It seems, because of your persistance, that you are serious.  OK.
> 
> I'm still not sure why you chose to ressurect McCarthy but I'll continue to play along because I too am serious about my opposition to the venture.
> 
> Perhaps the debate would be better framed in context if layed over the diffferences of public and government mindset of the times between then and now.
> 
> If you think the Americans came together over 9/11 you might well compare our resolve and back to the wall fear as a cub scout sleep over to the all consuming dedication to defeating the Axis.  Our country wasn't completely threatened by Al Qaeda.  The Japs and the Germans were a real threat to take over the world.  They damn near pulled it off.  The time frame was similar as now in that it was only a few years ago as 9/11 is to our times.
> 
> We felt betrayed by the commies.  Then they got nukes.  The soviets were willing to sacrifice millions defending their homeland which was not lost on us.  The whole cold war thing was shaping up as a horrible never ending nightmare of potential instant annihilation with madmen hovering over hair triggers.
> 
> I don't dispute the absolute necessity at the time to ferret out spies.  What was heinous was McCarthy's methods and grandstanding.
> 
> We were trying to get back to being Americans.  It was just months since the Japonese Americans were released from internment camps.  McCarthy's ranting and ravings was turning us back into the monsters defending our own lives.  His efforts reached out much farther than the senate hearings.  They gave official liscense to jingoism that did in fact ruin many innocents lives.  I think the most disturbing aspect of this sad revival is yours and others attempts to deny the harm.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just for five minute will you please take the time to read through and think about what happened before you reflexively resort to the McCarthy hatred?
> 
> Since the New Deal the Communists made a high priority of infiltrating the US Government and they succeeded beyond anyone's wildest imagination!
> 
> Once again, they turned China over to Mao!  They goaded the USA into conflict with Japan, they gave Yugoslavia to Tito!
> 
> This was the work of people who should have been seated next to the Rosenbergs
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Surely after you have taken the time to read my responses you do not think I am soft on spies soviet or otherwise.  I repeat.  They should be and were in many cases discovered, ...removed and...executed.  As I stated several times one of my dad's best friends did just that for the government.  "Ben" had my admiration for the work that he did.  I had many conversations with him.  He was not some crazy reactionary.  He was thoughtful and professional unlike McCarthy who was a dangerous drunken grandstanding self aggrandising buffoon.  I wont say that McCarthy was the worst American that ever lived.  Frankly he was not unlike Glenn Beck but more so in a time when his actions did not have much opposition and Americans were vulnerable to his vile and cowardly attacks.
> 
> We do not totally dissagree on the facts.  We dissagree on the harm McCarthy recklessly caused.
Click to expand...


Harm that you're simply unable to specify for us whatsoever.  Interesting.  Seems to me if he'd done so much bad stuff, you'd be able to at least name some of it.


----------



## Gadawg73

Cecilie1200 said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just for five minute will you please take the time to read through and think about what happened before you reflexively resort to the McCarthy hatred?
> 
> Since the New Deal the Communists made a high priority of infiltrating the US Government and they succeeded beyond anyone's wildest imagination!
> 
> Once again, they turned China over to Mao!  They goaded the USA into conflict with Japan, they gave Yugoslavia to Tito!
> 
> This was the work of people who should have been seated next to the Rosenbergs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Surely after you have taken the time to read my responses you do not think I am soft on spies soviet or otherwise.  I repeat.  They should be and were in many cases discovered, ...removed and...executed.  As I stated several times one of my dad's best friends did just that for the government.  "Ben" had my admiration for the work that he did.  I had many conversations with him.  He was not some crazy reactionary.  He was thoughtful and professional unlike McCarthy who was a dangerous drunken grandstanding self aggrandising buffoon.  I wont say that McCarthy was the worst American that ever lived.  Frankly he was not unlike Glenn Beck but more so in a time when his actions did not have much opposition and Americans were vulnerable to his vile and cowardly attacks.
> 
> We do not totally dissagree on the facts.  We dissagree on the harm McCarthy recklessly caused.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Harm that you're simply unable to specify for us whatsoever.  Interesting.  Seems to me if he'd done so much bad stuff, you'd be able to at least name some of it.
Click to expand...


Is it your argument that McCArthy was such a liar, buffoon, manipulator, slanderer of Army officers and innocent Americans, alcoholic and mental patient that his credibility was so bad no one took him seriously? And as a result of that, no one was harmed?


----------



## HUGGY

Cecilie1200 said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just for five minute will you please take the time to read through and think about what happened before you reflexively resort to the McCarthy hatred?
> 
> Since the New Deal the Communists made a high priority of infiltrating the US Government and they succeeded beyond anyone's wildest imagination!
> 
> Once again, they turned China over to Mao!  They goaded the USA into conflict with Japan, they gave Yugoslavia to Tito!
> 
> This was the work of people who should have been seated next to the Rosenbergs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Surely after you have taken the time to read my responses you do not think I am soft on spies soviet or otherwise.  I repeat.  They should be and were in many cases discovered, ...removed and...executed.  As I stated several times one of my dad's best friends did just that for the government.  "Ben" had my admiration for the work that he did.  I had many conversations with him.  He was not some crazy reactionary.  He was thoughtful and professional unlike McCarthy who was a dangerous drunken grandstanding self aggrandising buffoon.  I wont say that McCarthy was the worst American that ever lived.  Frankly he was not unlike Glenn Beck but more so in a time when his actions did not have much opposition and Americans were vulnerable to his vile and cowardly attacks.
> 
> We do not totally dissagree on the facts.  We dissagree on the harm McCarthy recklessly caused.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Harm that you're simply unable to specify for us whatsoever.  Interesting.  Seems to me if he'd done so much bad stuff, you'd be able to at least name some of it.
Click to expand...


CC...you have it backwards as usual.  In the OP the bar was set at "Hero".  I don't have to prove McCarthy was a monster..although relative to the times..he was.  You should try to take into account that there was no way for anyone to confront him in public to defend themselves.  That is a huge difference from today or even 20 years ago.  You cannot compare his actions to people today.  You might say that a Karl Rove's Push poll in N. Carolina during the Bush primary that accused John McCain of fathering a black baby was no different.  Taken at face value it probably wasn't.  Your problem with me is that I was there and you were not.  In todays environment he would just be laughed at like Glenn Beck or Sara Palin.  Back then the access to media was highly controlled.  Not just a little..I mean totally.  Perception was everything.  Once a rumor got started and someone was branded an enemy of our country fairly or not it was impossible to clear ones name.  Christ in those days a personal telephone line was an extreme priviledge.  There was no re-dress.  No letters to the paper..nothing.  People didn't have much to go on..rumor was fact.  There was a much higher bar gentlemen considered before slandering someone.  It seems you and Frankie are trying to place McCarthy in our environment comparable to what we have today..somehow to show what he did was no big deal....and in fact he did our country a service.  Well that could have been true if he did his investigations behind closed doors and nothing was released to the public until after a fair trial for those accused.

He was reckless.  He was no hero.  Maybe you will never get it how things were.  I cannot get in your head and show you.  All I can tell you is that my republican family hated him for what he did.  You will not be able to change what I know as fact.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Gadawg73 said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> Surely after you have taken the time to read my responses you do not think I am soft on spies soviet or otherwise.  I repeat.  They should be and were in many cases discovered, ...removed and...executed.  As I stated several times one of my dad's best friends did just that for the government.  "Ben" had my admiration for the work that he did.  I had many conversations with him.  He was not some crazy reactionary.  He was thoughtful and professional unlike McCarthy who was a dangerous drunken grandstanding self aggrandising buffoon.  I wont say that McCarthy was the worst American that ever lived.  Frankly he was not unlike Glenn Beck but more so in a time when his actions did not have much opposition and Americans were vulnerable to his vile and cowardly attacks.
> 
> We do not totally dissagree on the facts.  We dissagree on the harm McCarthy recklessly caused.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Harm that you're simply unable to specify for us whatsoever.  Interesting.  Seems to me if he'd done so much bad stuff, you'd be able to at least name some of it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Is it your argument that McCArthy was such a liar, buffoon, manipulator, slanderer of Army officers and innocent Americans, alcoholic and mental patient that his credibility was so bad no one took him seriously? And as a result of that, no one was harmed?
Click to expand...


Whatever makes you think that my argument would in any way include any of your ignorant, uninformed opinions of McCarthy as a person or his actions?


----------



## Cecilie1200

HUGGY said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> Surely after you have taken the time to read my responses you do not think I am soft on spies soviet or otherwise.  I repeat.  They should be and were in many cases discovered, ...removed and...executed.  As I stated several times one of my dad's best friends did just that for the government.  "Ben" had my admiration for the work that he did.  I had many conversations with him.  He was not some crazy reactionary.  He was thoughtful and professional unlike McCarthy who was a dangerous drunken grandstanding self aggrandising buffoon.  I wont say that McCarthy was the worst American that ever lived.  Frankly he was not unlike Glenn Beck but more so in a time when his actions did not have much opposition and Americans were vulnerable to his vile and cowardly attacks.
> 
> We do not totally dissagree on the facts.  We dissagree on the harm McCarthy recklessly caused.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Harm that you're simply unable to specify for us whatsoever.  Interesting.  Seems to me if he'd done so much bad stuff, you'd be able to at least name some of it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> CC...you have it backwards as usual.  In the OP the bar was set at "Hero".  I don't have to prove McCarthy was a monster..although relative to the times..he was.  You should try to take into account that there was no way for anyone to confront him in public to defend themselves.  That is a huge difference from today or even 20 years ago.  You cannot compare his actions to people today.  You might say that a Karl Rove's Push poll in N. Carolina during the Bush primary that accused John McCain of fathering a black baby was no different.  Taken at face value it probably wasn't.  Your problem with me is that I was there and you were not.  In todays environment he would just be laughed at like Glenn Beck or Sara Palin.  Back then the access to media was highly controlled.  Not just a little..I mean totally.  Perception was everything.  Once a rumor got started and someone was branded an enemy of our country fairly or not it was impossible to clear ones name.  Christ in those days a personal telephone line was an extreme priviledge.  There was no re-dress.  No letters to the paper..nothing.  People didn't have much to go on..rumor was fact.  There was a much higher bar gentlemen considered before slandering someone.  It seems you and Frankie are trying to place McCarthy in our environment comparable to what we have today..somehow to show what he did was no big deal....and in fact he did our country a service.  Well that could have been true if he did his investigations behind closed doors and nothing was released to the public until after a fair trial for those accused.
> 
> He was reckless.  He was no hero.  Maybe you will never get it how things were.  I cannot get in your head and show you.  All I can tell you is that my republican family hated him for what he did.  You will not be able to change what I know as fact.
Click to expand...


In other words, you believe that you get to hurl unfounded, unspecified accusations, and we're supposed to prove you wrong, despite the fact that you refuse to actually list anything for us to prove wrong?

Try again.

Oh, and no one said that what he did was "no big deal".  We contend that it WAS a very big deal, just not the one your lies say it was.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Cecilie1200, you have no defense of worth, period.  The facts are the facts, and your goofiness on this subject changes none of that.  Joseph McCarthy was a danger to the Republic and his own party conservatives pulled him down.  Those are the facts, and it doesn't matter how you worry them.  Your arguments have become chew toys here.  Your post above landed just before mine, and your response is excellent validation for what I have just posted.  That you won't admit the facts mean absolutely nothing to thinking, clear-headed individuals.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

JakeStarkey said:


> I agree totally with Huggy;s conclusion.  McCarthy recklessly caused harm (to many who were innocent) to further his career.  That is simply not at question.



Who Zero Mostel?  Can you name someone at State that was harmed by McCarthy?

Why do Progressives reflexively defend Communists even after they've admitted they placed spies at State Department?

Why?

Can you explain why you refuse to accept that the Soviets spies did great damage to this country?


----------



## Cecilie1200

CrusaderFrank said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree totally with Huggy;s conclusion.  McCarthy recklessly caused harm (to many who were innocent) to further his career.  That is simply not at question.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who Zero Mostel?  Can you name someone at State that was harmed by McCarthy?
> 
> Why do Progressives reflexively defend Communists even after they've admitted they placed spies at State Department?
> 
> Why?
> 
> Can you explain why you refuse to accept that the Soviets spies did great damage to this country?
Click to expand...


Oh, WELL, if YOU back up Huggy's vague, unspecified, ignorant claims, then that's all the proof we need, isn't it?


----------



## JakeStarkey

The vagues are clear, exact, and cogent.  Your interpretation of them, Cecilie1200, are not.  End of discussion.


----------



## Cecilie1200

JakeStarkey said:


> The vagues are clear, exact, and cogent.  Your interpretation of them, Cecilie1200, are not.  End of discussion.



Why am I not surprised that you have yet again tried to use "Because I said so, so there" in place of actually proving your argument?

If Joseph McCarthy had actually ruined any innocent lives, you'd have named 'em by now, so you're right about one thing.  The discussion is over.  You lost.


----------



## Gadawg73

Cecilie1200 said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Harm that you're simply unable to specify for us whatsoever.  Interesting.  Seems to me if he'd done so much bad stuff, you'd be able to at least name some of it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is it your argument that McCArthy was such a liar, buffoon, manipulator, slanderer of Army officers and innocent Americans, alcoholic and mental patient that his credibility was so bad no one took him seriously? And as a result of that, no one was harmed?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Whatever makes you think that my argument would in any way include any of your ignorant, uninformed opinions of McCarthy as a person or his actions?
Click to expand...


Is it you are incapable of making any argument in defense of your claims, which your dodge above clearly illustrates, or are you finally admitting that any and all of your arguments are without facts?
Which is it?


----------



## JakeStarkey

Cecilie1200's nonsense defense of JM has been competently answered over and over and over.

The fact that she won't admit it means not only she is wrong but also petty in spirit.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

JakeStarkey said:


> Cecilie1200's nonsense defense of JM has been competently answered over and over and over.
> 
> The fact that she won't admit it means not only she is wrong but also petty in spirit.



"Cause I say so" is not an answer, especially not when the Soviets admitted to the spying and the FBI declassified tens of thousands of pages confirming what McCarthy was correct.

You see how silly you look, right?  

You're a political Flat Earther


----------



## Old Rocks

Joe McCarthy: Then and Now | THE ZEITGEISTY REPORT

Like all demagogues, Joe McCarthy would eventually be done in by his own excesses. In 1954 when he tried to take on the United States Army, accusing them of being stacked to the rafters with Card Carrying Commies, the very absurdity of the charge proved to be too absurd even for the Congress. In a famous confrontation that was viewed by millions on television, council for the Army, Joseph Welsh, asked the thoroughly humiliated McCarthy:

&#8220;At long last, sir, have you no sense of decency?&#8221;

By the end of the year, on December 2, he would be censored, stripped of all of his seniority. Two-and-a-half years later, he would be dead; a broken man victimized &#8211; as he himself victimized so many others &#8211; by his own demons, primarily alcoholism. He was forty-nine years old

In May of 1957 the body of Joseph McCarthy was laid to rest in a small, rural cemetery adjacent to St. Mary&#8217;s Roman Catholic Church in Appleton, Wisconsin. The practice of baseless, political accusations that haunted America through much of the 1950s and which bears his name &#8211; McCarthyism &#8211; was buried with him&#8230;.or so we believed at the time


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Old Rocks said:


> Joe McCarthy: Then and Now | THE ZEITGEISTY REPORT
> 
> Like all demagogues, Joe McCarthy would eventually be done in by his own excesses. In 1954 when he tried to take on the United States Army, accusing them of being stacked to the rafters with Card Carrying Commies, the very absurdity of the charge proved to be too absurd even for the Congress. In a famous confrontation that was viewed by millions on television, council for the Army, Joseph Welsh, asked the thoroughly humiliated McCarthy:
> 
> &#8220;At long last, sir, have you no sense of decency?&#8221;
> 
> By the end of the year, on December 2, he would be censored, stripped of all of his seniority. Two-and-a-half years later, he would be dead; a broken man victimized &#8211; as he himself victimized so many others &#8211; by his own demons, primarily alcoholism. He was forty-nine years old
> 
> In May of 1957 the body of Joseph McCarthy was laid to rest in a small, rural cemetery adjacent to St. Mary&#8217;s Roman Catholic Church in Appleton, Wisconsin. The practice of baseless, political accusations that haunted America through much of the 1950s and which bears his name &#8211; McCarthyism &#8211; was buried with him&#8230;.or so we believed at the time



Once again you Political Flat Earthers have to come to terms with the fact that the Soviets confirmed that McCarthy was correct in his assessment that US State was Moscow West

You like to pretend you have some fleeting interest in science so you should be at least vaguely aware of the concept that when the facts knock the snot out of your theories, its time for new theories.

McCarthy has been completely and totally vindicated

You need to find some support group to help you cope


----------



## CrusaderFrank

McCarthy 1950: US State is overrun with Commies.
Moscow 1995: McCarthy was right

end of story


----------



## MajinLink

McCarthy was a dishonest and horrible individual. He wanted to be anti-soviet which is fine, but he ruined the lives of many innocents, and spat on the 1st amendment.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Not one of the so-called "conservatives" here have been able to credibly defend their man Joe.  What a piece of garbage he turned America into where ever he walked.  Time and again for more than 40 pages, the wannabe-conservatives have fallen on their faces, and still continue in the immorality of stubbornness in front of convincing evidence they are flatly wrong.


----------



## HUGGY

CrusaderFrank said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Cecilie1200's nonsense defense of JM has been competently answered over and over and over.
> 
> The fact that she won't admit it means not only she is wrong but also petty in spirit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Cause I say so" is not an answer, especially not when the Soviets admitted to the spying and the FBI declassified tens of thousands of pages confirming what McCarthy was correct.
> 
> You see how silly you look, right?
> 
> You're a political Flat Earther
Click to expand...


Swear you have never spent any money in a Walmart or shut your stinking lying hypocritical pie hole about who does or does not support communism.

Just saying....


----------



## Cecilie1200

MajinLink said:


> McCarthy was a dishonest and horrible individual. He wanted to be anti-soviet which is fine, but he ruined the lives of many innocents, and spat on the 1st amendment.



You planning on taking up the gauntlet your compatriots were too chickenshit to attempt?  Okay, newbie.  Dishonest how?  Horrible how?  Which innocents?  Spat on the First Amendment how?  Be specific.


----------



## MajinLink

Cecilie1200 said:


> MajinLink said:
> 
> 
> 
> McCarthy was a dishonest and horrible individual. He wanted to be anti-soviet which is fine, but he ruined the lives of many innocents, and spat on the 1st amendment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You planning on taking up the gauntlet your compatriots were too chickenshit to attempt?  Okay, newbie.  Dishonest how?  Horrible how?  Which innocents?  Spat on the First Amendment how?  Be specific.
Click to expand...


He is not the only person to blame but most of the garbage centralizes into the House Un-American Activities Committee. The most famous case of innocents being convincted for alleged use of different opinions of 1st amendment rights were the Hollywood Ten where many members of hollywood were either fired or sometimes arrested for possibly being communist. Even if that event never happened, he would still be responbile for spreading irrational fear of a communist threat and making downright lies and claims about communist in the state department or communists elsewhere


----------



## Cecilie1200

MajinLink said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MajinLink said:
> 
> 
> 
> McCarthy was a dishonest and horrible individual. He wanted to be anti-soviet which is fine, but he ruined the lives of many innocents, and spat on the 1st amendment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You planning on taking up the gauntlet your compatriots were too chickenshit to attempt?  Okay, newbie.  Dishonest how?  Horrible how?  Which innocents?  Spat on the First Amendment how?  Be specific.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> He is not the only person to blame but most of the garbage centralizes into the House Un-American Activities Committee. The most famous case of innocents being convincted for alleged use of different opinions of 1st amendment rights were the Hollywood Ten where many members of hollywood were either fired or sometimes arrested for possibly being communist. Even if that event never happened, he would still be responbile for spreading irrational fear of a communist threat and making downright lies and claims about communist in the state department or communists elsewhere
Click to expand...


Jesus H. Christ on a pogo stick.  It's not that I expect actual intelligence from you mouthbreathers, but if you can't be bothered to know something about the topic you plan to spew on, you might at LEAST read the frigging thread before barging into it.

Read my lips, dumbass:  SENATOR Joseph McCarthy was NEVER A MEMBER OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.  Note the word "House" in the name of the committee.  Not only that, but the HUAC started their investigations before McCarthy was ever elected to Congress, IN THE SENATE (just in case that little newsflash didn't get through to you the first time, since you don't seem too bright).  And furthermore, McCarthy's committee - IN THE SENATE - dealt with GOVERNMENT oversight.  He had nothing to do with Hollywood.

Therefore, you have just utterly and completely humiliated yourself in public, kind of the Internet equivalent of pissing in your pants AND shitting in them at the same time while on a first date.  Congratulations.

Out of morbid curiosity to see if you can outdo this dismal performance, feel free to come back and try again to list something McCarthy ACTUALLY did to someone he ACTUALLY had contact with.  Or slink away to die of shame, which would certainly be appropriate.


----------



## Gadawg73

CrusaderFrank said:


> Old Rocks said:
> 
> 
> 
> Joe McCarthy: Then and Now | THE ZEITGEISTY REPORT
> 
> Like all demagogues, Joe McCarthy would eventually be done in by his own excesses. In 1954 when he tried to take on the United States Army, accusing them of being stacked to the rafters with Card Carrying Commies, the very absurdity of the charge proved to be too absurd even for the Congress. In a famous confrontation that was viewed by millions on television, council for the Army, Joseph Welsh, asked the thoroughly humiliated McCarthy:
> 
> At long last, sir, have you no sense of decency?
> 
> By the end of the year, on December 2, he would be censored, stripped of all of his seniority. Two-and-a-half years later, he would be dead; a broken man victimized  as he himself victimized so many others  by his own demons, primarily alcoholism. He was forty-nine years old
> 
> In May of 1957 the body of Joseph McCarthy was laid to rest in a small, rural cemetery adjacent to St. Marys Roman Catholic Church in Appleton, Wisconsin. The practice of baseless, political accusations that haunted America through much of the 1950s and which bears his name  McCarthyism  was buried with him.or so we believed at the time
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Once again you Political Flat Earthers have to come to terms with the fact that the Soviets confirmed that McCarthy was correct in his assessment that US State was Moscow West
> 
> You like to pretend you have some fleeting interest in science so you should be at least vaguely aware of the concept that when the facts knock the snot out of your theories, its time for new theories.
> 
> McCarthy has been completely and totally vindicated
> 
> You need to find some support group to help you cope
Click to expand...


The Soviets said it thus it must be true.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Gadawg73 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Old Rocks said:
> 
> 
> 
> Joe McCarthy: Then and Now | THE ZEITGEISTY REPORT
> 
> Like all demagogues, Joe McCarthy would eventually be done in by his own excesses. In 1954 when he tried to take on the United States Army, accusing them of being stacked to the rafters with Card Carrying Commies, the very absurdity of the charge proved to be too absurd even for the Congress. In a famous confrontation that was viewed by millions on television, council for the Army, Joseph Welsh, asked the thoroughly humiliated McCarthy:
> 
> At long last, sir, have you no sense of decency?
> 
> By the end of the year, on December 2, he would be censored, stripped of all of his seniority. Two-and-a-half years later, he would be dead; a broken man victimized  as he himself victimized so many others  by his own demons, primarily alcoholism. He was forty-nine years old
> 
> In May of 1957 the body of Joseph McCarthy was laid to rest in a small, rural cemetery adjacent to St. Marys Roman Catholic Church in Appleton, Wisconsin. The practice of baseless, political accusations that haunted America through much of the 1950s and which bears his name  McCarthyism  was buried with him.or so we believed at the time
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Once again you Political Flat Earthers have to come to terms with the fact that the Soviets confirmed that McCarthy was correct in his assessment that US State was Moscow West
> 
> You like to pretend you have some fleeting interest in science so you should be at least vaguely aware of the concept that when the facts knock the snot out of your theories, its time for new theories.
> 
> McCarthy has been completely and totally vindicated
> 
> You need to find some support group to help you cope
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Soviets said it thus it must be true.
Click to expand...


Yes, the Soviets deliberately kept nothing but false records for decades so that, years after the fall of their country (which they didn't believe would happen), completely innocent people (most of whom are dead now anyway) would be proven to be spies for some completely unknown secret reason of their own.

DAMN those devious Russkies!


----------



## JakeStarkey

Cecilie1200 said:


> MajinLink said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You planning on taking up the gauntlet your compatriots were too chickenshit to attempt?  Okay, newbie.  Dishonest how?  Horrible how?  Which innocents?  Spat on the First Amendment how?  Be specific.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He is not the only person to blame but most of the garbage centralizes into the House Un-American Activities Committee. The most famous case of innocents being convincted for alleged use of different opinions of 1st amendment rights were the Hollywood Ten where many members of hollywood were either fired or sometimes arrested for possibly being communist. Even if that event never happened, he would still be responbile for spreading irrational fear of a communist threat and making downright lies and claims about communist in the state department or communists elsewhere
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> <snip: absolute dishonesty on your part>
Click to expand...


Cecile1200, even more than teapartysamurai or US Army Retired, you provide the classic example of the immoral stubborness of dishonesty.


----------



## Gadawg73

Cecilie1200 said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Once again you Political Flat Earthers have to come to terms with the fact that the Soviets confirmed that McCarthy was correct in his assessment that US State was Moscow West
> 
> You like to pretend you have some fleeting interest in science so you should be at least vaguely aware of the concept that when the facts knock the snot out of your theories, its time for new theories.
> 
> McCarthy has been completely and totally vindicated
> 
> You need to find some support group to help you cope
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Soviets said it thus it must be true.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, the Soviets deliberately kept nothing but false records for decades so that, years after the fall of their country (which they didn't believe would happen), completely innocent people (most of whom are dead now anyway) would be proven to be spies for some completely unknown secret reason of their own.
> 
> DAMN those devious Russkies!
Click to expand...


The current Russians are honest and would never attempt to manipulate anyone and always reveal and open their foreign policy and intelligence records to anyone that wants to look at them.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Gadawg73 said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Soviets said it thus it must be true.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, the Soviets deliberately kept nothing but false records for decades so that, years after the fall of their country (which they didn't believe would happen), completely innocent people (most of whom are dead now anyway) would be proven to be spies for some completely unknown secret reason of their own.
> 
> DAMN those devious Russkies!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The current Russians are honest and would never attempt to manipulate anyone and always reveal and open their foreign policy and intelligence records to anyone that wants to look at them.
Click to expand...


Which leads us back to the same premise:  all the intelligence records from the old KGB, plus the declassified decryptions of their Cold War messages are all fakes to make us believe that a bunch of people who are dead now anyway were really spies, for some unknown reason.  Because that makes more sense to you than that you dumbasses were just WRONG.


----------



## HUGGY

Would McCarthy shop at Walmart?


----------



## MajinLink

Cecilie1200 said:


> MajinLink said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You planning on taking up the gauntlet your compatriots were too chickenshit to attempt?  Okay, newbie.  Dishonest how?  Horrible how?  Which innocents?  Spat on the First Amendment how?  Be specific.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He is not the only person to blame but most of the garbage centralizes into the House Un-American Activities Committee. The most famous case of innocents being convincted for alleged use of different opinions of 1st amendment rights were the Hollywood Ten where many members of hollywood were either fired or sometimes arrested for possibly being communist. Even if that event never happened, he would still be responbile for spreading irrational fear of a communist threat and making downright lies and claims about communist in the state department or communists elsewhere
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Jesus H. Christ on a pogo stick.  It's not that I expect actual intelligence from you mouthbreathers, but if you can't be bothered to know something about the topic you plan to spew on, you might at LEAST read the frigging thread before barging into it.
> 
> Read my lips, dumbass:  SENATOR Joseph McCarthy was NEVER A MEMBER OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.  Note the word "House" in the name of the committee.  Not only that, but the HUAC started their investigations before McCarthy was ever elected to Congress, IN THE SENATE (just in case that little newsflash didn't get through to you the first time, since you don't seem too bright).  And furthermore, McCarthy's committee - IN THE SENATE - dealt with GOVERNMENT oversight.  He had nothing to do with Hollywood.
> 
> Therefore, you have just utterly and completely humiliated yourself in public, kind of the Internet equivalent of pissing in your pants AND shitting in them at the same time while on a first date.  Congratulations.
> 
> Out of morbid curiosity to see if you can outdo this dismal performance, feel free to come back and try again to list something McCarthy ACTUALLY did to someone he ACTUALLY had contact with.  Or slink away to die of shame, which would certainly be appropriate.
Click to expand...


Defend this


----------



## Cecilie1200

MajinLink said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MajinLink said:
> 
> 
> 
> He is not the only person to blame but most of the garbage centralizes into the House Un-American Activities Committee. The most famous case of innocents being convincted for alleged use of different opinions of 1st amendment rights were the Hollywood Ten where many members of hollywood were either fired or sometimes arrested for possibly being communist. Even if that event never happened, he would still be responbile for spreading irrational fear of a communist threat and making downright lies and claims about communist in the state department or communists elsewhere
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jesus H. Christ on a pogo stick.  It's not that I expect actual intelligence from you mouthbreathers, but if you can't be bothered to know something about the topic you plan to spew on, you might at LEAST read the frigging thread before barging into it.
> 
> Read my lips, dumbass:  SENATOR Joseph McCarthy was NEVER A MEMBER OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.  Note the word "House" in the name of the committee.  Not only that, but the HUAC started their investigations before McCarthy was ever elected to Congress, IN THE SENATE (just in case that little newsflash didn't get through to you the first time, since you don't seem too bright).  And furthermore, McCarthy's committee - IN THE SENATE - dealt with GOVERNMENT oversight.  He had nothing to do with Hollywood.
> 
> Therefore, you have just utterly and completely humiliated yourself in public, kind of the Internet equivalent of pissing in your pants AND shitting in them at the same time while on a first date.  Congratulations.
> 
> Out of morbid curiosity to see if you can outdo this dismal performance, feel free to come back and try again to list something McCarthy ACTUALLY did to someone he ACTUALLY had contact with.  Or slink away to die of shame, which would certainly be appropriate.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Defend this
Click to expand...


And I am responsible for defending against a two-bit, unsubstantiated Internet video made by some anonymous dipshit because why?

Here's a tip for you, newbie, provided out of the goodness of my heart (and believe me, this one tip is the extent of the goodness of my heart):  you need to learn the meaning of "reliable source" FAST if you plan to hang around here, because "I found someone on the Internet who says so" will get you nothing but laughed at, and that's by the NICE people on this board.  The rest of us will tear you a new asshole and toss you in the gutter as we move on to a REAL debater.

I don't dignify shit like this with a response, so if you intend to debate Senator Joseph McCarthy's career with me, you'd best come up with something worthy of my attention.  So far, you're embarrassing yourself so badly, I'm almost embarrassed for you.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Cecilie1200, give it up.  You got p'wnd many pages ago.  Epic fail.


----------



## MajinLink

Cecilie1200 said:


> MajinLink said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jesus H. Christ on a pogo stick.  It's not that I expect actual intelligence from you mouthbreathers, but if you can't be bothered to know something about the topic you plan to spew on, you might at LEAST read the frigging thread before barging into it.
> 
> Read my lips, dumbass:  SENATOR Joseph McCarthy was NEVER A MEMBER OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.  Note the word "House" in the name of the committee.  Not only that, but the HUAC started their investigations before McCarthy was ever elected to Congress, IN THE SENATE (just in case that little newsflash didn't get through to you the first time, since you don't seem too bright).  And furthermore, McCarthy's committee - IN THE SENATE - dealt with GOVERNMENT oversight.  He had nothing to do with Hollywood.
> 
> Therefore, you have just utterly and completely humiliated yourself in public, kind of the Internet equivalent of pissing in your pants AND shitting in them at the same time while on a first date.  Congratulations.
> 
> Out of morbid curiosity to see if you can outdo this dismal performance, feel free to come back and try again to list something McCarthy ACTUALLY did to someone he ACTUALLY had contact with.  Or slink away to die of shame, which would certainly be appropriate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Defend this
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And I am responsible for defending against a two-bit, unsubstantiated Internet video made by some anonymous dipshit because why?
> 
> Here's a tip for you newbie, provided out of the goodness of my heart (and believe me, this one tip is the extent of the goodness of my heart):  you need to learn the meaning of "reliable source" FAST if you plan to hang around here, because "I found someone on the Internet who says so" will get you nothing but laughed at, and that's by the NICE people on this board.  The rest of us will tear you a new asshole and toss you in the gutter as we move on to a REAL debater.
> 
> I don't dignify shit like this with a response, so if you intend to debate Senator Joseph McCarthy's career with me, you'd best come up with something worthy of my attention.  So far, you're embarrassing yourself so badly, I'm almost embarrassed for you.
Click to expand...

I'm embarrassed that you can't handle the truth. Or should I say embrace the truth. Just like your man Joe you will dismiss any real evidence to defend your broken theory, and bully your opponents.


----------



## Cecilie1200

MajinLink said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MajinLink said:
> 
> 
> 
> Defend this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And I am responsible for defending against a two-bit, unsubstantiated Internet video made by some anonymous dipshit because why?
> 
> Here's a tip for you newbie, provided out of the goodness of my heart (and believe me, this one tip is the extent of the goodness of my heart):  you need to learn the meaning of "reliable source" FAST if you plan to hang around here, because "I found someone on the Internet who says so" will get you nothing but laughed at, and that's by the NICE people on this board.  The rest of us will tear you a new asshole and toss you in the gutter as we move on to a REAL debater.
> 
> I don't dignify shit like this with a response, so if you intend to debate Senator Joseph McCarthy's career with me, you'd best come up with something worthy of my attention.  So far, you're embarrassing yourself so badly, I'm almost embarrassed for you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm embarrassed that you can't handle the truth. Or should I say embrace the truth. Just like your man Joe you will dismiss any real evidence to defend your broken theory, and bully your opponents.
Click to expand...


::sigh::  Declaring something the truth doesn't make it so, numbnuts, and I don't accept other people's word for it as proof from people who've been around here a whole lot longer than you, and who have impressed me with their debating skills a lot more than you have.

If you have some fucking truth you want me to embrace, Mensa Boy, trot it out here, already, and stop wasting my damned time with "It's true!  Everyone knows it's true!  You just don't want to admit it!"  If I wanted that kind of half-assed horseshit argument, I'd go talk to my teenager about why his chores aren't done.  At least HE'S cute while he does it.

Fucking MySpace.  That's even worse than Wikipedia.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Cecilie1200, your nattering is worse than a noob.  You have lost.  Move on, stop looking stupid.


----------



## Gadawg73

Cecilie1200 said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, the Soviets deliberately kept nothing but false records for decades so that, years after the fall of their country (which they didn't believe would happen), completely innocent people (most of whom are dead now anyway) would be proven to be spies for some completely unknown secret reason of their own.
> 
> DAMN those devious Russkies!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The current Russians are honest and would never attempt to manipulate anyone and always reveal and open their foreign policy and intelligence records to anyone that wants to look at them.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Which leads us back to the same premise:  all the intelligence records from the old KGB, plus the declassified decryptions of their Cold War messages are all fakes to make us believe that a bunch of people who are dead now anyway were really spies, for some unknown reason.  Because that makes more sense to you than that you dumbasses were just WRONG.
Click to expand...


Of course all of the declassified records of the KGB, as there is no old, current, last year's, the last decades' or any KGB OTHER THAN THE KGB and the declassified decryptions of Cold War messages have all been turned over to us with no scrutiny whatsoever in the spirit of detente, cooperation amongst the countries and as a gesture of goodwill to end any and all problems, tensions and trouble between the countries.
Anyone and everyone that would ever suggest that our good frends, the Russians, would continue to spy on us, kill our CIA operatives overseas, fund terrorist organizations worldwide and fund military operations world wide against our interests IS A LIAR.
They have to be. The Russians deny all of that. They are our friends.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Reputation 
Add to Reputation: Gadawg73 
What do you think of Gadawg73's post?  I approve

You can only do so much with her.  She literally is blindered.


----------



## PoliticalChic

Gadawg73 said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The current Russians are honest and would never attempt to manipulate anyone and always reveal and open their foreign policy and intelligence records to anyone that wants to look at them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which leads us back to the same premise:  all the intelligence records from the old KGB, plus the declassified decryptions of their Cold War messages are all fakes to make us believe that a bunch of people who are dead now anyway were really spies, for some unknown reason.  Because that makes more sense to you than that you dumbasses were just WRONG.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Of course all of the declassified records of the KGB, as there is no old, current, last year's, the last decades' or any KGB OTHER THAN THE KGB and the declassified decryptions of Cold War messages have all been turned over to us with no scrutiny whatsoever in the spirit of detente, cooperation amongst the countries and as a gesture of goodwill to end any and all problems, tensions and trouble between the countries.
> Anyone and everyone that would ever suggest that our good frends, the Russians, would continue to spy on us, kill our CIA operatives overseas, fund terrorist organizations worldwide and fund military operations world wide against our interests IS A LIAR.
> They have to be. The Russians deny all of that. They are our friends.
Click to expand...


What marvels one is not how dumb you are, Dullard, but how strenuously you fight to remain ignorant.

The Sword and the Shield: The Mitrokhin Archives, the History of the  KGB, by Christopher Andrew and Vasili Mitrokhin.

1.	This top archives was described by the FBI as the most complete and extensive intelligence ever achieved from any source.

2.	Vasili Mitrokhin  worked for 30 years in the foreign intelligence archives of the KGB. In 1972 he was made responsible for moving the entire archives to new headquarters in Moscow. But Mitrokhin spent over a decade making notes and transcripts of these classified files. In 1992, British Secret Intelligence Service exfiltrated the defector, and his presence in the west remained secret until the publication of this book.

3.	December 20, 1917 The KGB traces its origins to this date, six weeks after the Bolshevik Revolution, with the foundation of the Cheka, the first Soviet security and intelligence agency. KGB officers were, in fact, paid on the 20th of each month in honor of the Chekas birthday. The KGB adopted the Cheka symbols of the sword and the shield: the shield to defend the revolution, and the sword to smite its enemies.

4. But for the remarkably lax security of the Roosevelt administration, the damage to NKVD operation might have been much worse than the arrest (May 1941) of (Gayk) Ovakimyan [head of NKVD legal residency department]. P.107

5.  In September (1945) J. Edgar Hoover reported to the White House and the State Department that (defector) Gouzenko had provide information on the activities of a number of Soviet spies in the United States, one of whom was an assistant to the Secretary of StateOn November 7 (Elizabeth) Bentleybegan revealing what she knew of Soviet espionageNext day Hoover sent President Trumans military aide a first list of fourteen of those identified by Bentley as supplying information to the Soviet espionage system: among them Assistant Secretary of the Treasury Harry Dexter White, OSS (CIA) executive assistant Duncan C. Lee, and Roosevelts former aide Lauchlin Currie. Ibid, p.142


----------



## JakeStarkey

PoliticalChic just described herself in her opening sentence above.  She has the analytical ability of a piece of toast.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

See the difference between the froth and spew from the Left today as opposed to the 50's is that they've lost their media monopoly so they are exposed for the liars they are.

Add up all the posts made by the Leftists and there's not a single solitary statement disproving anything McCarthy said.  The KGB has admitted to a robust spy effort at State and now tens of thousands of pages of FBI files have confirmed what McCarthy stated: State was overrun with Communists (Full disclosure: in reviewing the FBI files, my grandfather appears on a watch list)

You Leftists can continue to defend Communist infiltration of US State all you want, you look like idiots with no facts and did I mention that you;re defending Communist infiltration of US State in the process?


----------



## JakeStarkey

Plenty of proof from left, center, and right has been posted here to disprove PC's nonsense and document your lying.  And if you can't get away with it here, you Herren Reactionaries sure aren't getting away with it in the larger world.


----------



## HUGGY

CrusaderFrank said:


> See the difference between the froth and spew from the Left today as opposed to the 50's iis that they've lost their media monopoly so they are exposed for the liars they are.
> 
> Add up all the posts made by the Leftists and there's not a single solitary statement disproving anything McCarthy said.  The KGB has admitted to a robust spy effort at State and now tens of thousands of pages of FBI files have confirmed what *McCarthy stated: State was overrun with Communists* (Full disclosure: in reviewing the FBI files, my grandfather appears on a watch list)
> 
> You Leftists can continue to defend Communist infiltration of US State all you want, you look like idiots with no facts and did I mention that you;re defending Communist infiltration of US State in the process?



[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh2sWSVRrmo[/ame]

Ain't stoppin you from shopping at Walmart is it Frankie..


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Not a shred of evidence to thwart McCarthy's Central Thesis: US State was infiltrated by Communist spies.

Not a single piece of evidence to the contrary.

"Cause I say so" or calling him a drunk or calling me names, means you've lost the argument

AND as an added bonus you continue to support Communists.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

What McCarthyism means to me today is that the American Left, a wholly owned subsidiary of the Communist Party is able to shout over the truth.  That was fairly easy when they had a media monopoly now that it's gone, they sound like howler monkeys


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Jake, the standard of proof is somewhat higher that "because I said so" Especially after your performance where you challenged the veracity one of the key researchers of the book by suggesting that "he check the footnotes" to a book you did not read and did not bother to site one of the footnote you called into question.

But, please do not get discouraged! I encourage to continue to challenge me and the author because it only serve to highlight the vacuousness of the opposition


----------



## JakeStarkey

CrusaderFrank, the standard proof is not found in Mark's research and PC's twisting the evidence.  This story has been told already, and it has been told correctly.  McCarthy was rightfully concerned about communism then went about it in a way that stole other people's personal liberties and smeared the American flag all for his own perverted glory.

Why do you and PC and the other reactionary hacks here not want to admit that it was the GOP that pulled McCarthy down, not the libs or the Dems?  Why is that, Frank, do you think?  The interesting thing is that you guys will no more be successful now than McCarthy in his time, or the George Wallaces in their times.  The American dream and glory is so much larger than your sillinesses and desires to run back to the bad old times.  

Don't worry, Frank: you will be able to confront your fears in the future, because you are not going to impose your silliness on the rest of the country.  It will be OK, old son.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

JakeStarkey said:


> CrusaderFrank, the standard proof is not found in Mark's research and PC's twisting the evidence.  This story has been told already, and it has been told correctly.  McCarthy was rightfully concerned about communism then went about it in a way that stole other people's personal liberties and smeared the American flag all for his own perverted glory.
> 
> Why do you and PC and the other reactionary hacks here not want to admit that it was the GOP that pulled McCarthy down, not the libs or the Dems?  Why is that, Frank, do you think?  The interesting thing is that you guys will no more successful than McCarthy in his time, or the George Wallaces in their times, or you wacks in your times.  The American dream and glory is so much larger than your sillinesses and desires to run back to the bad old times.
> 
> Don't worry, Frank: you will be able to confront your fears in the future, because you are not going to impose your silliness on the rest of the country.  It will be OK, old son.



Translation: I got nothing other than the lies that were told 50 years ago.

Had you bothered to read the book, and I know you didn't, you would have realized a lot has changed, a lot of new information has been brought out, all of which not only validates McCarthy, but shows that he far understated the scope and extent of the problem.

By shouting over the truth, Progressives successfully practiced McCarthyism on Joe McCarthy.  Your side lied about him and now the truth is out and you can't shout it out anymore


----------



## Gadawg73

PoliticalChic said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Which leads us back to the same premise:  all the intelligence records from the old KGB, plus the declassified decryptions of their Cold War messages are all fakes to make us believe that a bunch of people who are dead now anyway were really spies, for some unknown reason.  Because that makes more sense to you than that you dumbasses were just WRONG.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course all of the declassified records of the KGB, as there is no old, current, last year's, the last decades' or any KGB OTHER THAN THE KGB and the declassified decryptions of Cold War messages have all been turned over to us with no scrutiny whatsoever in the spirit of detente, cooperation amongst the countries and as a gesture of goodwill to end any and all problems, tensions and trouble between the countries.
> Anyone and everyone that would ever suggest that our good frends, the Russians, would continue to spy on us, kill our CIA operatives overseas, fund terrorist organizations worldwide and fund military operations world wide against our interests IS A LIAR.
> They have to be. The Russians deny all of that. They are our friends.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What marvels one is not how dumb you are, Dullard, but how strenuously you fight to remain ignorant.
> 
> &#8216;The Sword and the Shield: The Mitrokhin Archives, the History of the  KGB,&#8221; by Christopher Andrew and Vasili Mitrokhin.
> 
> 1.	This top archives was described by the FBI as &#8220;the most complete and extensive intelligence ever achieved from any source.&#8221;
> 
> 2.	Vasili Mitrokhin  worked for 30 years in the foreign intelligence archives of the KGB. In 1972 he was made responsible for moving the entire archives to new headquarters in Moscow. But Mitrokhin spent over a decade making notes and transcripts of these classified files. In 1992, British Secret Intelligence Service exfiltrated the defector, and his presence in the west remained secret until the publication of this book.
> 
> 3.	December 20, 1917 The KGB traces its origins to this date, six weeks after the Bolshevik Revolution, with the foundation of the Cheka, the first Soviet security and intelligence agency. KGB officers were, in fact, paid on the 20th of each month in honor of the Cheka&#8217;s birthday. The KGB adopted the Cheka symbol&#8217;s of the sword and the shield: the shield to defend the revolution, and the sword to smite its enemies.
> 
> 4. &#8220;But for the remarkably lax security of the Roosevelt administration, the damage to NKVD operation might have been much worse than the arrest (May 1941) of (Gayk) Ovakimyan&#8221; [head of NKVD legal residency department]. P.107
> 
> 5.  &#8220;In September (1945) J. Edgar Hoover reported to the White House and the State Department that (defector) Gouzenko had provide information on the activities of a number of Soviet spies in the United States, one of whom was &#8216;an assistant to the Secretary of State&#8217;&#8230;On November 7 (Elizabeth) Bentley&#8230;began revealing what she knew of Soviet espionage&#8230;Next day Hoover sent President Truman&#8217;s military aide a first list of fourteen of those identified by Bentley as supplying information to &#8216;the Soviet espionage system&#8217;: among them Assistant Secretary of the Treasury Harry Dexter White, OSS (CIA) executive assistant Duncan C. Lee, and Roosevelt&#8217;s former aide Lauchlin Currie.&#8221; Ibid, p.142
Click to expand...


Ah, _The Sword and The Shield_, a great read. Andrew's historical account is excellent. In detail it proved without any doubt that Western anti communists  extremely overestimated the Soviets military and economic strength. The book completely shot out the belief during the Cold War that the Soviet nuclear missle technology was superior to ours, a myth debunked that McCarthy and his supporters quoted as fact.
The book further proved that most of the specific people investigated by the McCarthy hearings turned out NOT to have any part whatsoever in Soviet activities and that the Soviets did not use the methods of espionage suspected and alleged by McCarthy and his ilk. Their fantasies, unlike the detailed accounts in this book on Soviet espionage, were unrealistic witch hunts totally unrelated to traditional Soviet procedures in subversion, infiltration and espionage. 

And you use this work as your evidence?


----------



## Wry Catcher

Edward R. Murrow was my last hero. When this nation was drowning in cowardice and demagoguery, it was Murrow who hurled the spear at the terror. The spear was his See It Now television broadcast on Senator Joe McCarthy.

Murrow did not kill off McCarthy or McCarthyism, but he helped halt America's incredible slide toward a native brand of fascism. Unbelievable. You had to live through the times to know how fearful -- indeed, terrorized -- people were about speaking their minds. The cold war with Russia, the threat of a hot war with China, security programs and loyalty oaths -- all had cowed the citizens of the most powerful nation on earth into keeping their minds closed and their mouths shut. The Senate of the United States. in order not to appear Red, chose to be yellow. It was the Age of McCarthyism. Edward R. Murrow helped bring it to an end.

He was the most famous newsman in broadcasting, but he spelled out the limitations of his trade. "Just because the microphone in front of you amplifies your voice around the world," he'd say, "is no reason to think we have any more wisdom than we had when our voices could reach only from one end of the bar to the other."

His writing was simple, direct. He used strong, active verbs. On paper, it looked plain. The voice made the words catch fire. He regarded the news as a sacred trust. Accuracy was everything. And, always, fairness.
Link:
Edward R. Murrow


----------



## JakeStarkey

CrusaderFrank said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank, the standard proof is not found in Mark's research and PC's twisting the evidence.  This story has been told already, and it has been told correctly.  McCarthy was rightfully concerned about communism then went about it in a way that stole other people's personal liberties and smeared the American flag all for his own perverted glory.
> 
> Why do you and PC and the other reactionary hacks here not want to admit that it was the GOP that pulled McCarthy down, not the libs or the Dems?  Why is that, Frank, do you think?  The interesting thing is that you guys will no more successful than McCarthy in his time, or the George Wallaces in their times, or you wacks in your times.  The American dream and glory is so much larger than your sillinesses and desires to run back to the bad old times.
> 
> Don't worry, Frank: you will be able to confront your fears in the future, because you are not going to impose your silliness on the rest of the country.  It will be OK, old son.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> <snip: as much bullshit as PC's>
Click to expand...


Address this one quote, old son: "Why do you and PC and the other reactionary hacks here not want to admit that it was the GOP that pulled McCarthy down, not the libs or the Dems?"

No running, punning, or funning.  Why won't you admit up front it was the GOP that pulled down your hero?


----------



## PoliticalChic

Gadawg73 said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Of course all of the declassified records of the KGB, as there is no old, current, last year's, the last decades' or any KGB OTHER THAN THE KGB and the declassified decryptions of Cold War messages have all been turned over to us with no scrutiny whatsoever in the spirit of detente, cooperation amongst the countries and as a gesture of goodwill to end any and all problems, tensions and trouble between the countries.
> Anyone and everyone that would ever suggest that our good frends, the Russians, would continue to spy on us, kill our CIA operatives overseas, fund terrorist organizations worldwide and fund military operations world wide against our interests IS A LIAR.
> They have to be. The Russians deny all of that. They are our friends.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What marvels one is not how dumb you are, Dullard, but how strenuously you fight to remain ignorant.
> 
> The Sword and the Shield: The Mitrokhin Archives, the History of the  KGB, by Christopher Andrew and Vasili Mitrokhin.
> 
> 1.	This top archives was described by the FBI as the most complete and extensive intelligence ever achieved from any source.
> 
> 2.	Vasili Mitrokhin  worked for 30 years in the foreign intelligence archives of the KGB. In 1972 he was made responsible for moving the entire archives to new headquarters in Moscow. But Mitrokhin spent over a decade making notes and transcripts of these classified files. In 1992, British Secret Intelligence Service exfiltrated the defector, and his presence in the west remained secret until the publication of this book.
> 
> 3.	December 20, 1917 The KGB traces its origins to this date, six weeks after the Bolshevik Revolution, with the foundation of the Cheka, the first Soviet security and intelligence agency. KGB officers were, in fact, paid on the 20th of each month in honor of the Chekas birthday. The KGB adopted the Cheka symbols of the sword and the shield: the shield to defend the revolution, and the sword to smite its enemies.
> 
> 4. But for the remarkably lax security of the Roosevelt administration, the damage to NKVD operation might have been much worse than the arrest (May 1941) of (Gayk) Ovakimyan [head of NKVD legal residency department]. P.107
> 
> 5.  In September (1945) J. Edgar Hoover reported to the White House and the State Department that (defector) Gouzenko had provide information on the activities of a number of Soviet spies in the United States, one of whom was an assistant to the Secretary of StateOn November 7 (Elizabeth) Bentleybegan revealing what she knew of Soviet espionageNext day Hoover sent President Trumans military aide a first list of fourteen of those identified by Bentley as supplying information to the Soviet espionage system: among them Assistant Secretary of the Treasury Harry Dexter White, OSS (CIA) executive assistant Duncan C. Lee, and Roosevelts former aide Lauchlin Currie. Ibid, p.142
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ah, _The Sword and The Shield_, a great read. Andrew's historical account is excellent. In detail it proved without any doubt that Western anti communists  extremely overestimated the Soviets military and economic strength. The book completely shot out the belief during the Cold War that the Soviet nuclear missle technology was superior to ours, a myth debunked that McCarthy and his supporters quoted as fact.
> The book further proved that most of the specific people investigated by the McCarthy hearings turned out NOT to have any part whatsoever in Soviet activities and that the Soviets did not use the methods of espionage suspected and alleged by McCarthy and his ilk. Their fantasies, unlike the detailed accounts in this book on Soviet espionage, were unrealistic witch hunts totally unrelated to traditional Soviet procedures in subversion, infiltration and espionage.
> 
> And you use this work as your evidence?
Click to expand...


"In detail it proved without any doubt that Western anti communists extremely overestimated the Soviets military and economic strength. "
I note that you have provided not one quote or direct reference from the book....

Why is that?

Could you be a dullard, and duplicitous?

Could deceit be your last weapon?

Could it be that you have never read the tome in question?

Could you be no more than a two-faced mouth-breathing bottom feeder?

Challenge: prove the statements you made in the post with quotes from the book...but be aware, I have it here, have read same, and demand veracity.


BTW, ...

1. Mitrokhin named some rather diverse individual in whom Soviet placed high hopes on the eve of WW II: Laurence Duggan (agent 19, later FRANK) in the State Department; Michael Straight (NIGEL), State Department; Martha Dodd Stern (LIZA), daughter of the former US ambassador to Germany, and the wife of Alfred Kaufman Stern (also a Soviet agent); Marthas brother William E. Doss, jr. (PRESIDENT), who had run for Congress as a Democrat; Harry Dexter White in the Treasury Department (KASSIR and JURIST); an agent codenamed MORIS, probably John Abt in the Justice Department; Boris Morros (FROST), Hollywood producer; Mary Wolfe Price (KID and DIR), secretary to Walter Lippman, and Henry Buchman (KHOSYAIN, employer) owner of a womans fashion salon in Baltimore.  [p106]

2. But for the remarkably lax security of the Roosevelt administration, the damage to NKVD operation might have been much worse than the arrest (May 1941) of (Gayk) Ovakimyan [head of NKVD legal residency department]. P.107

3. Henry Wallace, vice-president during Roosevelts third term in office (1941-1945), said later that if the ailing Roosevelt had died during that period and he had become President, it had been his intention to make Duggan his Secretary of State and White his Secretary of TresuryThe fact that Roosevelt survived intoa fourth termdeprived Soviet intelligence of what would have been its most spectacular success in penetrating a major Western government.  P.107-8

4. In 1944, in addition to Fuchs, there were two more spies at Los Alamos. The first,  David Greenglass, was recruited through a group of S & T agents run by Julius Rosenberg (codenamed ANRWNNA and LIBERAL), A 26-year-old New York Communist with a degree in electrical engineering. Like Fuchs, the members of the Rosenberg ring, who included his wife, Ethel, had been rewarded with cash bonuses in the summer. Ibid, p.128

5. The New York residency also reported in November 1944 that the precociously       brilliant nineteen-year old Harvard physicist Theodore Alvin Ted Hall, (codename MLAD) then working at Los Alamos, had indicated his willingness to collaborate. As well as being inspired by the myth-image of the Soviet worker-peasant state, which was an article of faith for most ideological Soviet agents, Hall convinced himself that an American nuclear monopoly would threaten the peace of the post- war world. Passing the secrets of the MANHATTAN project to Moscow was thus a way to help the world as well as the Soviet Union. Ibid, p.128

6.  In November of 1944, according to Elizabeth Bentley, there came an urgent           warning from an agent in the White House, Roosevelts administrative assistant Lauchlin Currie. Currie reported that the Americans were on the verge of breaking the Soviet code. The alarm appears to have subsided when it was discovered that Currie had wrongly concluded that a fire-damaged NKGB codebook obtained by OSS from the Finns would enable Soviet communications (which went through a further, theoretically impenetrable, encipherment by one-time pad) to be decrypted. The Sword and the Shield: The Mitrokhin Archives, the History of the  KGB, by Christopher Andrew and Vasili Mitrokhin.p.130

I would be happy to provide further just to prove what a dishonest, fake, fraud, mala fide and despicable sack of bezoar you are.


----------



## Wry Catcher

Who exactly is the Minister of The Ministry of Truth?  Which reactionary has the authority to 'correct' history?  [of course, those who correct history are destined to re-learn it - in Tennessee, I've heard they don't fool ya.]


----------



## JakeStarkey

PoliticalChic said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> What marvels one is not how dumb you are, Dullard, but how strenuously you fight to remain ignorant.
> 
> &#8216;The Sword and the Shield: The Mitrokhin Archives, the History of the  KGB,&#8221; by Christopher Andrew and Vasili Mitrokhin.
> 
> 1.	This top archives was described by the FBI as &#8220;the most complete and extensive intelligence ever achieved from any source.&#8221;
> 
> 2.	Vasili Mitrokhin  worked for 30 years in the foreign intelligence archives of the KGB. In 1972 he was made responsible for moving the entire archives to new headquarters in Moscow. But Mitrokhin spent over a decade making notes and transcripts of these classified files. In 1992, British Secret Intelligence Service exfiltrated the defector, and his presence in the west remained secret until the publication of this book.
> 
> 3.	December 20, 1917 The KGB traces its origins to this date, six weeks after the Bolshevik Revolution, with the foundation of the Cheka, the first Soviet security and intelligence agency. KGB officers were, in fact, paid on the 20th of each month in honor of the Cheka&#8217;s birthday. The KGB adopted the Cheka symbol&#8217;s of the sword and the shield: the shield to defend the revolution, and the sword to smite its enemies.
> 
> 4. &#8220;But for the remarkably lax security of the Roosevelt administration, the damage to NKVD operation might have been much worse than the arrest (May 1941) of (Gayk) Ovakimyan&#8221; [head of NKVD legal residency department]. P.107
> 
> 5.  &#8220;In September (1945) J. Edgar Hoover reported to the White House and the State Department that (defector) Gouzenko had provide information on the activities of a number of Soviet spies in the United States, one of whom was &#8216;an assistant to the Secretary of State&#8217;&#8230;On November 7 (Elizabeth) Bentley&#8230;began revealing what she knew of Soviet espionage&#8230;Next day Hoover sent President Truman&#8217;s military aide a first list of fourteen of those identified by Bentley as supplying information to &#8216;the Soviet espionage system&#8217;: among them Assistant Secretary of the Treasury Harry Dexter White, OSS (CIA) executive assistant Duncan C. Lee, and Roosevelt&#8217;s former aide Lauchlin Currie.&#8221; Ibid, p.142
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, _The Sword and The Shield_, a great read. Andrew's historical account is excellent. In detail it proved without any doubt that Western anti communists  extremely overestimated the Soviets military and economic strength. The book completely shot out the belief during the Cold War that the Soviet nuclear missle technology was superior to ours, a myth debunked that McCarthy and his supporters quoted as fact.
> The book further proved that most of the specific people investigated by the McCarthy hearings turned out NOT to have any part whatsoever in Soviet activities and that the Soviets did not use the methods of espionage suspected and alleged by McCarthy and his ilk. Their fantasies, unlike the detailed accounts in this book on Soviet espionage, were unrealistic witch hunts totally unrelated to traditional Soviet procedures in subversion, infiltration and espionage.
> 
> And you use this work as your evidence?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "In detail it proved without any doubt that Western anti communists extremely overestimated the Soviets military and economic strength. "
> I note that you have provided not one quote or direct reference from the book....
> 
> Why is that?
> 
> Could you be a dullard, and duplicitous?
> 
> Could deceit be your last weapon?
> 
> Could it be that you have never read the tome in question?
> 
> Could you be no more than a two-faced mouth-breathing bottom feeder?
> 
> Challenge: prove the statements you made in the post with quotes from the book...but be aware, I have it here, have read same, and demand veracity.
> 
> 
> BTW, ...
> 
> 1. Mitrokhin named some rather diverse individual in whom Soviet placed high hopes on the eve of WW II: Laurence Duggan (agent &#8217;19,&#8217; later FRANK) in the State Department; Michael Straight (NIGEL), State Department; Martha Dodd Stern (LIZA), daughter of the former US ambassador to Germany, and the wife of Alfred Kaufman Stern (also a Soviet agent); Martha&#8217;s brother William E. Doss, jr. (PRESIDENT), who had run for Congress as a Democrat; Harry Dexter White in the Treasury Department (KASSIR and JURIST); an agent codenamed MORIS, probably John Abt in the Justice Department; Boris Morros (FROST), Hollywood producer; Mary Wolfe Price (KID and DIR), secretary to Walter Lippman, and Henry Buchman (KHOSYAIN, &#8216;employer&#8217 owner of a woman&#8217;s fashion salon in Baltimore.  [p106]
> 
> 2. &#8220;But for the remarkably lax security of the Roosevelt administration, the damage to NKVD operation might have been much worse than the arrest (May 1941) of (Gayk) Ovakimyan&#8221; [head of NKVD legal residency department]. P.107
> 
> 3. &#8220;Henry Wallace, vice-president during Roosevelt&#8217;s third term in office (1941-1945), said later that if the ailing Roosevelt had died during that period and he had become President, it had been his intention to make Duggan his Secretary of State and White his Secretary of Tresury&#8230;The fact that Roosevelt survived into&#8230;a fourth term&#8230;deprived Soviet intelligence of what would have been its most spectacular success in penetrating a major Western government.&#8221;  P.107-8
> 
> 4. In 1944, in addition to Fuchs, there were two more spies at Los Alamos. &#8220;The first,  David Greenglass, was recruited through a group of S & T agents run by Julius Rosenberg (codenamed ANRWNNA and LIBERAL), A 26-year-old New York Communist with a degree in electrical engineering. Like Fuchs, the members of the Rosenberg ring, who included his wife, Ethel, had been rewarded with cash bonuses in the summer.&#8221; Ibid, p.128
> 
> 5. &#8220;The New York residency also reported in November 1944 that the precociously       brilliant nineteen-year old Harvard physicist Theodore Alvin &#8220;Ted&#8221; Hall, (codename MLAD) then working at Los Alamos, had indicated his willingness to collaborate. As well as being inspired by the myth-image of the Soviet worker-peasant state, which was an article of faith for most ideological Soviet agents, Hall convinced himself that an American nuclear monopoly would threaten the peace of the post- war world. Passing the secrets of the MANHATTAN project to Moscow was thus a way &#8216;to help the world&#8217; as well as the Soviet Union.&#8217; &#8221;Ibid, p.128
> 
> 6.  In November of 1944, &#8220;according to Elizabeth Bentley, there came an urgent           warning from an agent in the White House, Roosevelt&#8217;s administrative assistant Lauchlin Currie. Currie reported that &#8216;the Americans were on the verge of breaking the Soviet code.&#8217; The alarm appears to have subsided when it was discovered that Currie had wrongly concluded that a fire-damaged NKGB codebook obtained by OSS from the Finns would enable Soviet communications (which went through a further, theoretically impenetrable, encipherment by &#8216;one-time pad&#8217 to be decrypted.&#8221; The Sword and the Shield: The Mitrokhin Archives, the History of the  KGB,&#8221; by Christopher Andrew and Vasili Mitrokhin.p.130
> 
> I would be happy to provide further just to prove what a dishonest, fake, fraud, mala fide and despicable sack of bezoar you are.
Click to expand...


Mere "dishonest, fake, fraud" from you and your sources, PC.  Minion Mark and you are certainly a duplicitous team of disinformation agents.

Simply read the current literature on the subject, check the sources and footnotes, particularly the way the pro-McCarthyites twist the notes and sources, and you will quickly come to realize, these are the same type of scum as McCarthy and his minions of the fifties.


----------



## Gadawg73

PoliticalChic said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> What marvels one is not how dumb you are, Dullard, but how strenuously you fight to remain ignorant.
> 
> &#8216;The Sword and the Shield: The Mitrokhin Archives, the History of the  KGB,&#8221; by Christopher Andrew and Vasili Mitrokhin.
> 
> 1.	This top archives was described by the FBI as &#8220;the most complete and extensive intelligence ever achieved from any source.&#8221;
> 
> 2.	Vasili Mitrokhin  worked for 30 years in the foreign intelligence archives of the KGB. In 1972 he was made responsible for moving the entire archives to new headquarters in Moscow. But Mitrokhin spent over a decade making notes and transcripts of these classified files. In 1992, British Secret Intelligence Service exfiltrated the defector, and his presence in the west remained secret until the publication of this book.
> 
> 3.	December 20, 1917 The KGB traces its origins to this date, six weeks after the Bolshevik Revolution, with the foundation of the Cheka, the first Soviet security and intelligence agency. KGB officers were, in fact, paid on the 20th of each month in honor of the Cheka&#8217;s birthday. The KGB adopted the Cheka symbol&#8217;s of the sword and the shield: the shield to defend the revolution, and the sword to smite its enemies.
> 
> 4. &#8220;But for the remarkably lax security of the Roosevelt administration, the damage to NKVD operation might have been much worse than the arrest (May 1941) of (Gayk) Ovakimyan&#8221; [head of NKVD legal residency department]. P.107
> 
> 5.  &#8220;In September (1945) J. Edgar Hoover reported to the White House and the State Department that (defector) Gouzenko had provide information on the activities of a number of Soviet spies in the United States, one of whom was &#8216;an assistant to the Secretary of State&#8217;&#8230;On November 7 (Elizabeth) Bentley&#8230;began revealing what she knew of Soviet espionage&#8230;Next day Hoover sent President Truman&#8217;s military aide a first list of fourteen of those identified by Bentley as supplying information to &#8216;the Soviet espionage system&#8217;: among them Assistant Secretary of the Treasury Harry Dexter White, OSS (CIA) executive assistant Duncan C. Lee, and Roosevelt&#8217;s former aide Lauchlin Currie.&#8221; Ibid, p.142
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, _The Sword and The Shield_, a great read. Andrew's historical account is excellent. In detail it proved without any doubt that Western anti communists  extremely overestimated the Soviets military and economic strength. The book completely shot out the belief during the Cold War that the Soviet nuclear missle technology was superior to ours, a myth debunked that McCarthy and his supporters quoted as fact.
> The book further proved that most of the specific people investigated by the McCarthy hearings turned out NOT to have any part whatsoever in Soviet activities and that the Soviets did not use the methods of espionage suspected and alleged by McCarthy and his ilk. Their fantasies, unlike the detailed accounts in this book on Soviet espionage, were unrealistic witch hunts totally unrelated to traditional Soviet procedures in subversion, infiltration and espionage.
> 
> And you use this work as your evidence?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "In detail it proved without any doubt that Western anti communists extremely overestimated the Soviets military and economic strength. "
> I note that you have provided not one quote or direct reference from the book....
> 
> Why is that?
> 
> Could you be a dullard, and duplicitous?
> 
> Could deceit be your last weapon?
> 
> Could it be that you have never read the tome in question?
> 
> Could you be no more than a two-faced mouth-breathing bottom feeder?
> 
> Challenge: prove the statements you made in the post with quotes from the book...but be aware, I have it here, have read same, and demand veracity.
> 
> 
> BTW, ...
> 
> 1. Mitrokhin named some rather diverse individual in whom Soviet placed high hopes on the eve of WW II: Laurence Duggan (agent &#8217;19,&#8217; later FRANK) in the State Department; Michael Straight (NIGEL), State Department; Martha Dodd Stern (LIZA), daughter of the former US ambassador to Germany, and the wife of Alfred Kaufman Stern (also a Soviet agent); Martha&#8217;s brother William E. Doss, jr. (PRESIDENT), who had run for Congress as a Democrat; Harry Dexter White in the Treasury Department (KASSIR and JURIST); an agent codenamed MORIS, probably John Abt in the Justice Department; Boris Morros (FROST), Hollywood producer; Mary Wolfe Price (KID and DIR), secretary to Walter Lippman, and Henry Buchman (KHOSYAIN, &#8216;employer&#8217 owner of a woman&#8217;s fashion salon in Baltimore.  [p106]
> 
> 2. &#8220;But for the remarkably lax security of the Roosevelt administration, the damage to NKVD operation might have been much worse than the arrest (May 1941) of (Gayk) Ovakimyan&#8221; [head of NKVD legal residency department]. P.107
> 
> 3. &#8220;Henry Wallace, vice-president during Roosevelt&#8217;s third term in office (1941-1945), said later that if the ailing Roosevelt had died during that period and he had become President, it had been his intention to make Duggan his Secretary of State and White his Secretary of Tresury&#8230;The fact that Roosevelt survived into&#8230;a fourth term&#8230;deprived Soviet intelligence of what would have been its most spectacular success in penetrating a major Western government.&#8221;  P.107-8
> 
> 4. In 1944, in addition to Fuchs, there were two more spies at Los Alamos. &#8220;The first,  David Greenglass, was recruited through a group of S & T agents run by Julius Rosenberg (codenamed ANRWNNA and LIBERAL), A 26-year-old New York Communist with a degree in electrical engineering. Like Fuchs, the members of the Rosenberg ring, who included his wife, Ethel, had been rewarded with cash bonuses in the summer.&#8221; Ibid, p.128
> 
> 5. &#8220;The New York residency also reported in November 1944 that the precociously       brilliant nineteen-year old Harvard physicist Theodore Alvin &#8220;Ted&#8221; Hall, (codename MLAD) then working at Los Alamos, had indicated his willingness to collaborate. As well as being inspired by the myth-image of the Soviet worker-peasant state, which was an article of faith for most ideological Soviet agents, Hall convinced himself that an American nuclear monopoly would threaten the peace of the post- war world. Passing the secrets of the MANHATTAN project to Moscow was thus a way &#8216;to help the world&#8217; as well as the Soviet Union.&#8217; &#8221;Ibid, p.128
> 
> 6.  In November of 1944, &#8220;according to Elizabeth Bentley, there came an urgent           warning from an agent in the White House, Roosevelt&#8217;s administrative assistant Lauchlin Currie. Currie reported that &#8216;the Americans were on the verge of breaking the Soviet code.&#8217; The alarm appears to have subsided when it was discovered that Currie had wrongly concluded that a fire-damaged NKGB codebook obtained by OSS from the Finns would enable Soviet communications (which went through a further, theoretically impenetrable, encipherment by &#8216;one-time pad&#8217 to be decrypted.&#8221; The Sword and the Shield: The Mitrokhin Archives, the History of the  KGB,&#8221; by Christopher Andrew and Vasili Mitrokhin.p.130
> 
> I would be happy to provide further just to prove what a dishonest, fake, fraud, mala fide and despicable sack of bezoar you are.
Click to expand...


Truman was President and his administration was in charge during the McCarthy hearings my dear child.
You are a decade off with your "analysis".
Refer to your #1. Why is it that NONE listed by Mitrokhin in the list was on any of McCarthy's imaginary list, lists, or should I correctly call them blank pieces of paper?
If McCarthy had any of that information he would have provided at least ONE PIECE OF EVIDENCE to prove it.
And just like you, all we end up with as usual is cute as a button but nothing else.
But keep on smiling as we love those dimples.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

JakeStarkey said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank, the standard proof is not found in Mark's research and PC's twisting the evidence.  This story has been told already, and it has been told correctly.  McCarthy was rightfully concerned about communism then went about it in a way that stole other people's personal liberties and smeared the American flag all for his own perverted glory.
> 
> Why do you and PC and the other reactionary hacks here not want to admit that it was the GOP that pulled McCarthy down, not the libs or the Dems?  Why is that, Frank, do you think?  The interesting thing is that you guys will no more successful than McCarthy in his time, or the George Wallaces in their times, or you wacks in your times.  The American dream and glory is so much larger than your sillinesses and desires to run back to the bad old times.
> 
> Don't worry, Frank: you will be able to confront your fears in the future, because you are not going to impose your silliness on the rest of the country.  It will be OK, old son.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> <snip: as much bullshit as PC's>
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Address this one quote, old son: "Why do you and PC and the other reactionary hacks here not want to admit that it was the GOP that pulled McCarthy down, not the libs or the Dems?"
> 
> No running, punning, or funning.  Why won't you admit up front it was the GOP that pulled down your hero?
Click to expand...


Communists at State, Treasury and the media fooled the nation into believing that McCarthy was a loon, they practiced McCarthyism on the man who pulled up the rock and exposed Communist infiltration at State.  That some GOP Senators went along is totally irrelevant, they had no way of knowing that 45 years later the Communists themselves would admit that McCarthy was correct.

Indeed had Truman not been Stalin's fluffer and allowed investigations at State to move forward we could have prevented any further damage.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Gadawg73 said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, _The Sword and The Shield_, a great read. Andrew's historical account is excellent. In detail it proved without any doubt that Western anti communists  extremely overestimated the Soviets military and economic strength. The book completely shot out the belief during the Cold War that the Soviet nuclear missle technology was superior to ours, a myth debunked that McCarthy and his supporters quoted as fact.
> The book further proved that most of the specific people investigated by the McCarthy hearings turned out NOT to have any part whatsoever in Soviet activities and that the Soviets did not use the methods of espionage suspected and alleged by McCarthy and his ilk. Their fantasies, unlike the detailed accounts in this book on Soviet espionage, were unrealistic witch hunts totally unrelated to traditional Soviet procedures in subversion, infiltration and espionage.
> 
> And you use this work as your evidence?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "In detail it proved without any doubt that Western anti communists extremely overestimated the Soviets military and economic strength. "
> I note that you have provided not one quote or direct reference from the book....
> 
> Why is that?
> 
> Could you be a dullard, and duplicitous?
> 
> Could deceit be your last weapon?
> 
> Could it be that you have never read the tome in question?
> 
> Could you be no more than a two-faced mouth-breathing bottom feeder?
> 
> Challenge: prove the statements you made in the post with quotes from the book...but be aware, I have it here, have read same, and demand veracity.
> 
> 
> BTW, ...
> 
> 1. Mitrokhin named some rather diverse individual in whom Soviet placed high hopes on the eve of WW II: Laurence Duggan (agent 19, later FRANK) in the State Department; Michael Straight (NIGEL), State Department; Martha Dodd Stern (LIZA), daughter of the former US ambassador to Germany, and the wife of Alfred Kaufman Stern (also a Soviet agent); Marthas brother William E. Doss, jr. (PRESIDENT), who had run for Congress as a Democrat; Harry Dexter White in the Treasury Department (KASSIR and JURIST); an agent codenamed MORIS, probably John Abt in the Justice Department; Boris Morros (FROST), Hollywood producer; Mary Wolfe Price (KID and DIR), secretary to Walter Lippman, and Henry Buchman (KHOSYAIN, employer) owner of a womans fashion salon in Baltimore.  [p106]
> 
> 2. But for the remarkably lax security of the Roosevelt administration, the damage to NKVD operation might have been much worse than the arrest (May 1941) of (Gayk) Ovakimyan [head of NKVD legal residency department]. P.107
> 
> 3. Henry Wallace, vice-president during Roosevelts third term in office (1941-1945), said later that if the ailing Roosevelt had died during that period and he had become President, it had been his intention to make Duggan his Secretary of State and White his Secretary of TresuryThe fact that Roosevelt survived intoa fourth termdeprived Soviet intelligence of what would have been its most spectacular success in penetrating a major Western government.  P.107-8
> 
> 4. In 1944, in addition to Fuchs, there were two more spies at Los Alamos. The first,  David Greenglass, was recruited through a group of S & T agents run by Julius Rosenberg (codenamed ANRWNNA and LIBERAL), A 26-year-old New York Communist with a degree in electrical engineering. Like Fuchs, the members of the Rosenberg ring, who included his wife, Ethel, had been rewarded with cash bonuses in the summer. Ibid, p.128
> 
> 5. The New York residency also reported in November 1944 that the precociously       brilliant nineteen-year old Harvard physicist Theodore Alvin Ted Hall, (codename MLAD) then working at Los Alamos, had indicated his willingness to collaborate. As well as being inspired by the myth-image of the Soviet worker-peasant state, which was an article of faith for most ideological Soviet agents, Hall convinced himself that an American nuclear monopoly would threaten the peace of the post- war world. Passing the secrets of the MANHATTAN project to Moscow was thus a way to help the world as well as the Soviet Union. Ibid, p.128
> 
> 6.  In November of 1944, according to Elizabeth Bentley, there came an urgent           warning from an agent in the White House, Roosevelts administrative assistant Lauchlin Currie. Currie reported that the Americans were on the verge of breaking the Soviet code. The alarm appears to have subsided when it was discovered that Currie had wrongly concluded that a fire-damaged NKGB codebook obtained by OSS from the Finns would enable Soviet communications (which went through a further, theoretically impenetrable, encipherment by one-time pad) to be decrypted. The Sword and the Shield: The Mitrokhin Archives, the History of the  KGB, by Christopher Andrew and Vasili Mitrokhin.p.130
> 
> I would be happy to provide further just to prove what a dishonest, fake, fraud, mala fide and despicable sack of bezoar you are.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Truman was President and his administration was in charge during the McCarthy hearings my dear child.
> You are a decade off with your "analysis".
> Refer to your #1. Why is it that NONE listed by Mitrokhin in the list was on any of McCarthy's imaginary list, lists, or should I correctly call them blank pieces of paper?
> If McCarthy had any of that information he would have provided at least ONE PIECE OF EVIDENCE to prove it.
> And just like you, all we end up with as usual is cute as a button but nothing else.
> But keep on smiling as we love those dimples.
Click to expand...


For the billionth time.

McCarthy's intel came from State, he was asking that Congress investigate!  That's really it in a nutshell.  Instead of investigating Communists at State, Communists sympathizers and lackeys in Congress investigated McCarthy!

He didn't even 'name names' until Tydings pushed him to (In order to see which of Tydings Communist friends had been careless and stupid enough to get caught)


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Jake, the reason you haven't posted any of your notorious contradictory footnotes is because you didn't read the book and therefore have nothing to post, right?


----------



## CrusaderFrank

The Wait for Jake's Footnote, Day 2.

So far, nothing. Not a single footnote sited by Jake to a book he did not read about a subject he knows less than nothing about.


----------



## Gadawg73

CrusaderFrank said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> "In detail it proved without any doubt that Western anti communists extremely overestimated the Soviets military and economic strength. "
> I note that you have provided not one quote or direct reference from the book....
> 
> Why is that?
> 
> Could you be a dullard, and duplicitous?
> 
> Could deceit be your last weapon?
> 
> Could it be that you have never read the tome in question?
> 
> Could you be no more than a two-faced mouth-breathing bottom feeder?
> 
> Challenge: prove the statements you made in the post with quotes from the book...but be aware, I have it here, have read same, and demand veracity.
> 
> 
> BTW, ...
> 
> 1. Mitrokhin named some rather diverse individual in whom Soviet placed high hopes on the eve of WW II: Laurence Duggan (agent 19, later FRANK) in the State Department; Michael Straight (NIGEL), State Department; Martha Dodd Stern (LIZA), daughter of the former US ambassador to Germany, and the wife of Alfred Kaufman Stern (also a Soviet agent); Marthas brother William E. Doss, jr. (PRESIDENT), who had run for Congress as a Democrat; Harry Dexter White in the Treasury Department (KASSIR and JURIST); an agent codenamed MORIS, probably John Abt in the Justice Department; Boris Morros (FROST), Hollywood producer; Mary Wolfe Price (KID and DIR), secretary to Walter Lippman, and Henry Buchman (KHOSYAIN, employer) owner of a womans fashion salon in Baltimore.  [p106]
> 
> 2. But for the remarkably lax security of the Roosevelt administration, the damage to NKVD operation might have been much worse than the arrest (May 1941) of (Gayk) Ovakimyan [head of NKVD legal residency department]. P.107
> 
> 3. Henry Wallace, vice-president during Roosevelts third term in office (1941-1945), said later that if the ailing Roosevelt had died during that period and he had become President, it had been his intention to make Duggan his Secretary of State and White his Secretary of TresuryThe fact that Roosevelt survived intoa fourth termdeprived Soviet intelligence of what would have been its most spectacular success in penetrating a major Western government.  P.107-8
> 
> 4. In 1944, in addition to Fuchs, there were two more spies at Los Alamos. The first,  David Greenglass, was recruited through a group of S & T agents run by Julius Rosenberg (codenamed ANRWNNA and LIBERAL), A 26-year-old New York Communist with a degree in electrical engineering. Like Fuchs, the members of the Rosenberg ring, who included his wife, Ethel, had been rewarded with cash bonuses in the summer. Ibid, p.128
> 
> 5. The New York residency also reported in November 1944 that the precociously       brilliant nineteen-year old Harvard physicist Theodore Alvin Ted Hall, (codename MLAD) then working at Los Alamos, had indicated his willingness to collaborate. As well as being inspired by the myth-image of the Soviet worker-peasant state, which was an article of faith for most ideological Soviet agents, Hall convinced himself that an American nuclear monopoly would threaten the peace of the post- war world. Passing the secrets of the MANHATTAN project to Moscow was thus a way to help the world as well as the Soviet Union. Ibid, p.128
> 
> 6.  In November of 1944, according to Elizabeth Bentley, there came an urgent           warning from an agent in the White House, Roosevelts administrative assistant Lauchlin Currie. Currie reported that the Americans were on the verge of breaking the Soviet code. The alarm appears to have subsided when it was discovered that Currie had wrongly concluded that a fire-damaged NKGB codebook obtained by OSS from the Finns would enable Soviet communications (which went through a further, theoretically impenetrable, encipherment by one-time pad) to be decrypted. The Sword and the Shield: The Mitrokhin Archives, the History of the  KGB, by Christopher Andrew and Vasili Mitrokhin.p.130
> 
> I would be happy to provide further just to prove what a dishonest, fake, fraud, mala fide and despicable sack of bezoar you are.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Truman was President and his administration was in charge during the McCarthy hearings my dear child.
> You are a decade off with your "analysis".
> Refer to your #1. Why is it that NONE listed by Mitrokhin in the list was on any of McCarthy's imaginary list, lists, or should I correctly call them blank pieces of paper?
> If McCarthy had any of that information he would have provided at least ONE PIECE OF EVIDENCE to prove it.
> And just like you, all we end up with as usual is cute as a button but nothing else.
> But keep on smiling as we love those dimples.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> For the billionth time.
> 
> McCarthy's intel came from State, he was asking that Congress investigate!  That's really it in a nutshell.  Instead of investigating Communists at State, Communists sympathizers and lackeys in Congress investigated McCarthy!
> 
> He didn't even 'name names' until Tydings pushed him to (In order to see which of Tydings Communist friends had been careless and stupid enough to get caught)
Click to expand...


Frank,let me appeal to your common sense and reason as I sincerely believe you have both.
I am a licensed private detective for 30 years. I have investigated over 5000 cases, probably half criminal cases for defense lawyers.
A few over the years there were innocent people drug into these cases by prosecutors, prosecuted and a few convicted. We call that the "shot gun" effect. Many times these folks were found not guilty after spending THEIR ENTIRELIFE SAVINGS defending themselves. 
Don't you frown on that Frank? Throw everyone under the bus and if one sticks then fine. Who cares who is guilty and who is innocent? Is that you Franks. I don't believe so.
You do know that was the way McCarthy and Cohn ran their operation, don't you Frank? No one and let me repeat NO ONE is denying there were spies in our government. And I believe you do know there are STILL SPIES in our government as we debate here. 
The problem is you want to give A FREE PASS to the shot gun effect of the McCarthy era and accuse 10,000 people to prove there were 100 spies.
And I believe you know better but refuse to admit it.


----------



## PoliticalChic

Gadawg73 said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, _The Sword and The Shield_, a great read. Andrew's historical account is excellent. In detail it proved without any doubt that Western anti communists  extremely overestimated the Soviets military and economic strength. The book completely shot out the belief during the Cold War that the Soviet nuclear missle technology was superior to ours, a myth debunked that McCarthy and his supporters quoted as fact.
> The book further proved that most of the specific people investigated by the McCarthy hearings turned out NOT to have any part whatsoever in Soviet activities and that the Soviets did not use the methods of espionage suspected and alleged by McCarthy and his ilk. Their fantasies, unlike the detailed accounts in this book on Soviet espionage, were unrealistic witch hunts totally unrelated to traditional Soviet procedures in subversion, infiltration and espionage.
> 
> And you use this work as your evidence?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "In detail it proved without any doubt that Western anti communists extremely overestimated the Soviets military and economic strength. "
> I note that you have provided not one quote or direct reference from the book....
> 
> Why is that?
> 
> Could you be a dullard, and duplicitous?
> 
> Could deceit be your last weapon?
> 
> Could it be that you have never read the tome in question?
> 
> Could you be no more than a two-faced mouth-breathing bottom feeder?
> 
> Challenge: prove the statements you made in the post with quotes from the book...but be aware, I have it here, have read same, and demand veracity.
> 
> 
> BTW, ...
> 
> 1. Mitrokhin named some rather diverse individual in whom Soviet placed high hopes on the eve of WW II: Laurence Duggan (agent 19, later FRANK) in the State Department; Michael Straight (NIGEL), State Department; Martha Dodd Stern (LIZA), daughter of the former US ambassador to Germany, and the wife of Alfred Kaufman Stern (also a Soviet agent); Marthas brother William E. Doss, jr. (PRESIDENT), who had run for Congress as a Democrat; Harry Dexter White in the Treasury Department (KASSIR and JURIST); an agent codenamed MORIS, probably John Abt in the Justice Department; Boris Morros (FROST), Hollywood producer; Mary Wolfe Price (KID and DIR), secretary to Walter Lippman, and Henry Buchman (KHOSYAIN, employer) owner of a womans fashion salon in Baltimore.  [p106]
> 
> 2. But for the remarkably lax security of the Roosevelt administration, the damage to NKVD operation might have been much worse than the arrest (May 1941) of (Gayk) Ovakimyan [head of NKVD legal residency department]. P.107
> 
> 3. Henry Wallace, vice-president during Roosevelts third term in office (1941-1945), said later that if the ailing Roosevelt had died during that period and he had become President, it had been his intention to make Duggan his Secretary of State and White his Secretary of TresuryThe fact that Roosevelt survived intoa fourth termdeprived Soviet intelligence of what would have been its most spectacular success in penetrating a major Western government.  P.107-8
> 
> 4. In 1944, in addition to Fuchs, there were two more spies at Los Alamos. The first,  David Greenglass, was recruited through a group of S & T agents run by Julius Rosenberg (codenamed ANRWNNA and LIBERAL), A 26-year-old New York Communist with a degree in electrical engineering. Like Fuchs, the members of the Rosenberg ring, who included his wife, Ethel, had been rewarded with cash bonuses in the summer. Ibid, p.128
> 
> 5. The New York residency also reported in November 1944 that the precociously       brilliant nineteen-year old Harvard physicist Theodore Alvin Ted Hall, (codename MLAD) then working at Los Alamos, had indicated his willingness to collaborate. As well as being inspired by the myth-image of the Soviet worker-peasant state, which was an article of faith for most ideological Soviet agents, Hall convinced himself that an American nuclear monopoly would threaten the peace of the post- war world. Passing the secrets of the MANHATTAN project to Moscow was thus a way to help the world as well as the Soviet Union. Ibid, p.128
> 
> 6.  In November of 1944, according to Elizabeth Bentley, there came an urgent           warning from an agent in the White House, Roosevelts administrative assistant Lauchlin Currie. Currie reported that the Americans were on the verge of breaking the Soviet code. The alarm appears to have subsided when it was discovered that Currie had wrongly concluded that a fire-damaged NKGB codebook obtained by OSS from the Finns would enable Soviet communications (which went through a further, theoretically impenetrable, encipherment by one-time pad) to be decrypted. The Sword and the Shield: The Mitrokhin Archives, the History of the  KGB, by Christopher Andrew and Vasili Mitrokhin.p.130
> 
> I would be happy to provide further just to prove what a dishonest, fake, fraud, mala fide and despicable sack of bezoar you are.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Truman was President and his administration was in charge during the McCarthy hearings my dear child.
> You are a decade off with your "analysis".
> Refer to your #1. Why is it that NONE listed by Mitrokhin in the list was on any of McCarthy's imaginary list, lists, or should I correctly call them blank pieces of paper?
> If McCarthy had any of that information he would have provided at least ONE PIECE OF EVIDENCE to prove it.
> And just like you, all we end up with as usual is cute as a button but nothing else.
> But keep on smiling as we love those dimples.
Click to expand...


Where are the quotes?????


Where??

Are you admitting that you are a total liar and have never read the book????


So I was correct as to everything I said about you....

step off, creep.


----------



## Gadawg73

PoliticalChic said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> "In detail it proved without any doubt that Western anti communists extremely overestimated the Soviets military and economic strength. "
> I note that you have provided not one quote or direct reference from the book....
> 
> Why is that?
> 
> Could you be a dullard, and duplicitous?
> 
> Could deceit be your last weapon?
> 
> Could it be that you have never read the tome in question?
> 
> Could you be no more than a two-faced mouth-breathing bottom feeder?
> 
> Challenge: prove the statements you made in the post with quotes from the book...but be aware, I have it here, have read same, and demand veracity.
> 
> 
> BTW, ...
> 
> 1. Mitrokhin named some rather diverse individual in whom Soviet placed high hopes on the eve of WW II: Laurence Duggan (agent 19, later FRANK) in the State Department; Michael Straight (NIGEL), State Department; Martha Dodd Stern (LIZA), daughter of the former US ambassador to Germany, and the wife of Alfred Kaufman Stern (also a Soviet agent); Marthas brother William E. Doss, jr. (PRESIDENT), who had run for Congress as a Democrat; Harry Dexter White in the Treasury Department (KASSIR and JURIST); an agent codenamed MORIS, probably John Abt in the Justice Department; Boris Morros (FROST), Hollywood producer; Mary Wolfe Price (KID and DIR), secretary to Walter Lippman, and Henry Buchman (KHOSYAIN, employer) owner of a womans fashion salon in Baltimore.  [p106]
> 
> 2. But for the remarkably lax security of the Roosevelt administration, the damage to NKVD operation might have been much worse than the arrest (May 1941) of (Gayk) Ovakimyan [head of NKVD legal residency department]. P.107
> 
> 3. Henry Wallace, vice-president during Roosevelts third term in office (1941-1945), said later that if the ailing Roosevelt had died during that period and he had become President, it had been his intention to make Duggan his Secretary of State and White his Secretary of TresuryThe fact that Roosevelt survived intoa fourth termdeprived Soviet intelligence of what would have been its most spectacular success in penetrating a major Western government.  P.107-8
> 
> 4. In 1944, in addition to Fuchs, there were two more spies at Los Alamos. The first,  David Greenglass, was recruited through a group of S & T agents run by Julius Rosenberg (codenamed ANRWNNA and LIBERAL), A 26-year-old New York Communist with a degree in electrical engineering. Like Fuchs, the members of the Rosenberg ring, who included his wife, Ethel, had been rewarded with cash bonuses in the summer. Ibid, p.128
> 
> 5. The New York residency also reported in November 1944 that the precociously       brilliant nineteen-year old Harvard physicist Theodore Alvin Ted Hall, (codename MLAD) then working at Los Alamos, had indicated his willingness to collaborate. As well as being inspired by the myth-image of the Soviet worker-peasant state, which was an article of faith for most ideological Soviet agents, Hall convinced himself that an American nuclear monopoly would threaten the peace of the post- war world. Passing the secrets of the MANHATTAN project to Moscow was thus a way to help the world as well as the Soviet Union. Ibid, p.128
> 
> 6.  In November of 1944, according to Elizabeth Bentley, there came an urgent           warning from an agent in the White House, Roosevelts administrative assistant Lauchlin Currie. Currie reported that the Americans were on the verge of breaking the Soviet code. The alarm appears to have subsided when it was discovered that Currie had wrongly concluded that a fire-damaged NKGB codebook obtained by OSS from the Finns would enable Soviet communications (which went through a further, theoretically impenetrable, encipherment by one-time pad) to be decrypted. The Sword and the Shield: The Mitrokhin Archives, the History of the  KGB, by Christopher Andrew and Vasili Mitrokhin.p.130
> 
> I would be happy to provide further just to prove what a dishonest, fake, fraud, mala fide and despicable sack of bezoar you are.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Truman was President and his administration was in charge during the McCarthy hearings my dear child.
> You are a decade off with your "analysis".
> Refer to your #1. Why is it that NONE listed by Mitrokhin in the list was on any of McCarthy's imaginary list, lists, or should I correctly call them blank pieces of paper?
> If McCarthy had any of that information he would have provided at least ONE PIECE OF EVIDENCE to prove it.
> And just like you, all we end up with as usual is cute as a button but nothing else.
> But keep on smiling as we love those dimples.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Where are the quotes?????
> 
> 
> Where??
> 
> Are you admitting that you are a total liar and have never read the book????
> 
> 
> So I was correct as to everything I said about you....
> 
> step off, creep.
Click to expand...


Sticks and stones. I fought 6'4", 300 lb.offensive lineman for three years, I have been shot at, beat on, run over and left for dead and have all of the scars to prove it. Call me what you want. This is funny.

The way it always works in America is YOU have to prove your case. You presented your case and I have shot it all to hell and back. And you blame ME for that?
You want quotes? I can give you hundreds of quotes. How about these from your boy Joe McCarthy?
McCarthy on Truman's Secretary of Defense George Catlett Marshall "Marshall is guilty of treason. If Marshall was merely stupid, the laws of probability would dictate that part of his decisions would serve this country's interest" Great support for a man, label him as treasonous that was The Army Chief of State during WWII and Truman's Secretary of State. 
Where are the names on thoe pieces of paper Joey waved?
Want more QUOTES sweetie pie? As a result of McCarthy's, your Joe boy, spasms above, Truman called McCarthy "The Kremlin's best asset"  and called McCarthy's witch hunts "an attempt to sabotage the foreign policy of the United States".
Need more. Your Boy Joe accuses and had nothing whatsoever to back it up with.
McCarthy claimed the State Department of the Truman administration "harbors known communists as the Democratic Party has been 20 years of treason".
Get the picture Hun?

Again, we require evidence here and you have to provide something, anything, somewhere, someplace to back up your whacky conspiracy theories. Otherwise Delta is ready when you are. They do it your way in Iran and Libya.


----------



## PoliticalChic

Gadawg73 said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Truman was President and his administration was in charge during the McCarthy hearings my dear child.
> You are a decade off with your "analysis".
> Refer to your #1. Why is it that NONE listed by Mitrokhin in the list was on any of McCarthy's imaginary list, lists, or should I correctly call them blank pieces of paper?
> If McCarthy had any of that information he would have provided at least ONE PIECE OF EVIDENCE to prove it.
> And just like you, all we end up with as usual is cute as a button but nothing else.
> But keep on smiling as we love those dimples.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where are the quotes?????
> 
> 
> Where??
> 
> Are you admitting that you are a total liar and have never read the book????
> 
> 
> So I was correct as to everything I said about you....
> 
> step off, creep.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sticks and stones. I fought 6'4", 300 lb.offensive lineman for three years, I have been shot at, beat on, run over and left for dead and have all of the scars to prove it. Call me what you want. This is funny.
> 
> The way it always works in America is YOU have to prove your case. You presented your case and I have shot it all to hell and back. And you blame ME for that?
> You want quotes? I can give you hundreds of quotes. How about these from your boy Joe McCarthy?
> McCarthy on Truman's Secretary of Defense George Catlett Marshall "Marshall is guilty of treason. If Marshall was merely stupid, the laws of probability would dictate that part of his decisions would serve this country's interest" Great support for a man, label him as treasonous that was The Army Chief of State during WWII and Truman's Secretary of State.
> Where are the names on thoe pieces of paper Joey waved?
> Want more QUOTES sweetie pie? As a result of McCarthy's, your Joe boy, spasms above, Truman called McCarthy "The Kremlin's best asset"  and called McCarthy's witch hunts "an attempt to sabotage the foreign policy of the United States".
> Need more. Your Boy Joe accuses and had nothing whatsoever to back it up with.
> McCarthy claimed the State Department of the Truman administration "harbors known communists as the Democratic Party has been 20 years of treason".
> Get the picture Hun?
> 
> Again, we require evidence here and you have to provide something, anything, somewhere, someplace to back up your whacky conspiracy theories. Otherwise Delta is ready when you are. They do it your way in Iran and Libya.
Click to expand...


You lying sack of disrepute....

This is your statement:
"Ah, The Sword and The Shield, a great read. Andrew's historical account is excellent. In detail it proved without any doubt that Western anti communists extremely overestimated the Soviets military and economic strength. The book completely shot out the belief during the Cold War that the Soviet nuclear missle technology was superior to ours, a myth debunked that McCarthy and his supporters quoted as fact."


Where are the quotes?????


Where??

Are you admitting that you are a total liar and have never read the book????


Now you babble some more drivel....


"In detail it proved without any doubt..."

Where????

You never read the book, did you????

Putrid prevaricator...

everything you say is counterfeit, isn't it....

makes quite the fool out of Jakey, doesn't it.


----------



## Gadawg73

PoliticalChic said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where are the quotes?????
> 
> 
> Where??
> 
> Are you admitting that you are a total liar and have never read the book????
> 
> 
> So I was correct as to everything I said about you....
> 
> step off, creep.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sticks and stones. I fought 6'4", 300 lb.offensive lineman for three years, I have been shot at, beat on, run over and left for dead and have all of the scars to prove it. Call me what you want. This is funny.
> 
> The way it always works in America is YOU have to prove your case. You presented your case and I have shot it all to hell and back. And you blame ME for that?
> You want quotes? I can give you hundreds of quotes. How about these from your boy Joe McCarthy?
> McCarthy on Truman's Secretary of Defense George Catlett Marshall "Marshall is guilty of treason. If Marshall was merely stupid, the laws of probability would dictate that part of his decisions would serve this country's interest" Great support for a man, label him as treasonous that was The Army Chief of State during WWII and Truman's Secretary of State.
> Where are the names on thoe pieces of paper Joey waved?
> Want more QUOTES sweetie pie? As a result of McCarthy's, your Joe boy, spasms above, Truman called McCarthy "The Kremlin's best asset"  and called McCarthy's witch hunts "an attempt to sabotage the foreign policy of the United States".
> Need more. Your Boy Joe accuses and had nothing whatsoever to back it up with.
> McCarthy claimed the State Department of the Truman administration "harbors known communists as the Democratic Party has been 20 years of treason".
> Get the picture Hun?
> 
> Again, we require evidence here and you have to provide something, anything, somewhere, someplace to back up your whacky conspiracy theories. Otherwise Delta is ready when you are. They do it your way in Iran and Libya.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You lying sack of disrepute....
> 
> This is your statement:
> "Ah, The Sword and The Shield, a great read. Andrew's historical account is excellent. In detail it proved without any doubt that Western anti communists extremely overestimated the Soviets military and economic strength. The book completely shot out the belief during the Cold War that the Soviet nuclear missle technology was superior to ours, a myth debunked that McCarthy and his supporters quoted as fact."
> 
> 
> Where are the quotes?????
> 
> 
> Where??
> 
> Are you admitting that you are a total liar and have never read the book????
> 
> 
> Now you babble some more drivel....
> 
> 
> "In detail it proved without any doubt..."
> 
> Where????
> 
> You never read the book, did you????
> 
> Putrid prevaricator...
> 
> everything you say is counterfeit, isn't it....
> 
> makes quite the fool out of Jakey, doesn't it.
Click to expand...


The book is littered with numerous examples of the KGB spending most of their time, and being quite succesful at it, stealing technology from the west for THEIR military systems.
It goes to great lengths detailing those operations. That is what the book IS sugarlips. The book is an account of Soviet Espionage.
All the while McCarthy and the red scare loons claimed that the Russian technology WAS BETTER THAN WHAT WE HAVE.
I knew Frank had some brains and good sense but this proves without any doubt you are slow and thick in the noggen.
Now why would they spend so much time, $$, resources and lives attempting to steal estern technology  if what they had was better than what we have as claimed by Mcarthy?
You CLAIM I DID NOT READ THE BOOK? I have a better understanding of the facts contained in the book than you as all you can do is parrot quotes.
Give it up. McCarthy was a red baiter and YOUR own posts have proved all of us correct.
And guess why Russia bought the translation rights for this book? And guess which language it is that is spelled out in that contract? 
And guess why the Russians will NEVER allow the book to see the light of day anywhere there printed in Russian?


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Gadawg73 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Truman was President and his administration was in charge during the McCarthy hearings my dear child.
> You are a decade off with your "analysis".
> Refer to your #1. Why is it that NONE listed by Mitrokhin in the list was on any of McCarthy's imaginary list, lists, or should I correctly call them blank pieces of paper?
> If McCarthy had any of that information he would have provided at least ONE PIECE OF EVIDENCE to prove it.
> And just like you, all we end up with as usual is cute as a button but nothing else.
> But keep on smiling as we love those dimples.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For the billionth time.
> 
> McCarthy's intel came from State, he was asking that Congress investigate!  That's really it in a nutshell.  Instead of investigating Communists at State, Communists sympathizers and lackeys in Congress investigated McCarthy!
> 
> He didn't even 'name names' until Tydings pushed him to (In order to see which of Tydings Communist friends had been careless and stupid enough to get caught)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Frank,let me appeal to your common sense and reason as I sincerely believe you have both.
> I am a licensed private detective for 30 years. I have investigated over 5000 cases, probably half criminal cases for defense lawyers.
> A few over the years there were innocent people drug into these cases by prosecutors, prosecuted and a few convicted. We call that the "shot gun" effect. Many times these folks were found not guilty after spending THEIR ENTIRELIFE SAVINGS defending themselves.
> Don't you frown on that Frank? Throw everyone under the bus and if one sticks then fine. Who cares who is guilty and who is innocent? Is that you Franks. I don't believe so.
> You do know that was the way McCarthy and Cohn ran their operation, don't you Frank? No one and let me repeat NO ONE is denying there were spies in our government. And I believe you do know there are STILL SPIES in our government as we debate here.
> The problem is you want to give A FREE PASS to the shot gun effect of the McCarthy era and accuse 10,000 people to prove there were 100 spies.
> And I believe you know better but refuse to admit it.
Click to expand...


Don't take this personally, but you suck as a private detective and don't have the first fucking clue how McCarthy and Cohn ran anything.  

You should have some vague, passing familiarity with the facts and circumstances of McCarty's Central Thesis before you accuse him of a "Shotgun" effect.

President Truman prevented Congress from investigating the allegations of Communist infiltration of US State for years and that simmered until Feb 1950, when Joe McCarthy made a speech at Wheeling WV, saying that he was given a list from State of 57 Card carrying Communist at State. In the interest of fairness to them he refused to name them because he had so little evidence.  All he wanted was for Congress to take a deeper look at US State.

The Leftists then and now were the real McCarthyites, they threw everything at him and ignored all the facts all to protect the Comrades at State, Treasury, the Federal Reserve and World Bank.  Nothing changed in how the Left operates, unfortunately, the Left lost their media monopoly so all they have is spew, innuendo, ridicule and outright nonsense.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Gadawg73 said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Truman was President and his administration was in charge during the McCarthy hearings my dear child.
> You are a decade off with your "analysis".
> Refer to your #1. Why is it that NONE listed by Mitrokhin in the list was on any of McCarthy's imaginary list, lists, or should I correctly call them blank pieces of paper?
> If McCarthy had any of that information he would have provided at least ONE PIECE OF EVIDENCE to prove it.
> And just like you, all we end up with as usual is cute as a button but nothing else.
> But keep on smiling as we love those dimples.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where are the quotes?????
> 
> 
> Where??
> 
> Are you admitting that you are a total liar and have never read the book????
> 
> 
> So I was correct as to everything I said about you....
> 
> step off, creep.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Sticks and stones. I fought 6'4", 300 lb.offensive lineman for three years, I have been shot at, beat on, run over and left for dead and have all of the scars to prove it. Call me what you want. This is funny.
> 
> The way it always works in America is YOU have to prove your case. You presented your case and I have shot it all to hell and back. And you blame ME for that?
> You want quotes? I can give you hundreds of quotes. How about these from your boy Joe McCarthy?
> McCarthy on Truman's Secretary of Defense George Catlett Marshall "Marshall is guilty of treason. If Marshall was merely stupid, the laws of probability would dictate that part of his decisions would serve this country's interest" Great support for a man, label him as treasonous that was The Army Chief of State during WWII and Truman's Secretary of State.
> Where are the names on thoe pieces of paper Joey waved?
> Want more QUOTES sweetie pie? As a result of McCarthy's, your Joe boy, spasms above, Truman called McCarthy "The Kremlin's best asset"  and called McCarthy's witch hunts "an attempt to sabotage the foreign policy of the United States".
> Need more. Your Boy Joe accuses and had nothing whatsoever to back it up with.
> McCarthy claimed the State Department of the Truman administration "harbors known communists as the Democratic Party has been 20 years of treason".
> Get the picture Hun?
> 
> Again, we require evidence here and you have to provide something, anything, somewhere, someplace to back up your whacky conspiracy theories. Otherwise Delta is ready when you are. They do it your way in Iran and Libya.
Click to expand...


He had nothing to back it up because he was asking for the power to investigate what the State told him!

You have no excuse to remain so totally ignorant, you're spewing stuff and nonsense that is 50 years out of date and totally WRONG!


----------



## CrusaderFrank

McCarthy outed Owen Latimore, Sol Adler and Lauchin Currie (to name but 3) as genuine spies and besides FDR and Truman, it would be harder to identity more influential people in the US government at the time


----------



## Gadawg73

CrusaderFrank said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> For the billionth time.
> 
> McCarthy's intel came from State, he was asking that Congress investigate!  That's really it in a nutshell.  Instead of investigating Communists at State, Communists sympathizers and lackeys in Congress investigated McCarthy!
> 
> He didn't even 'name names' until Tydings pushed him to (In order to see which of Tydings Communist friends had been careless and stupid enough to get caught)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Frank,let me appeal to your common sense and reason as I sincerely believe you have both.
> I am a licensed private detective for 30 years. I have investigated over 5000 cases, probably half criminal cases for defense lawyers.
> A few over the years there were innocent people drug into these cases by prosecutors, prosecuted and a few convicted. We call that the "shot gun" effect. Many times these folks were found not guilty after spending THEIR ENTIRELIFE SAVINGS defending themselves.
> Don't you frown on that Frank? Throw everyone under the bus and if one sticks then fine. Who cares who is guilty and who is innocent? Is that you Franks. I don't believe so.
> You do know that was the way McCarthy and Cohn ran their operation, don't you Frank? No one and let me repeat NO ONE is denying there were spies in our government. And I believe you do know there are STILL SPIES in our government as we debate here.
> The problem is you want to give A FREE PASS to the shot gun effect of the McCarthy era and accuse 10,000 people to prove there were 100 spies.
> And I believe you know better but refuse to admit it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Don't take this personally, but you suck as a private detective and don't have the first fucking clue how McCarthy and Cohn ran anything.
> 
> You should have some vague, passing familiarity with the facts and circumstances of McCarty's Central Thesis before you accuse him of a "Shotgun" effect.
> 
> President Truman prevented Congress from investigating the allegations of Communist infiltration of US State for years and that simmered until Feb 1950, when Joe McCarthy made a speech at Wheeling WV, saying that he was given a list from State of 57 Card carrying Communist at State. In the interest of fairness to them he refused to name them because he had so little evidence.  All he wanted was for Congress to take a deeper look at US State.
> 
> The Leftists then and now were the real McCarthyites, they threw everything at him and ignored all the facts all to protect the Comrades at State, Treasury, the Federal Reserve and World Bank.  Nothing changed in how the Left operates, unfortunately, the Left lost their media monopoly so all they have is spew, innuendo, ridicule and outright nonsense.
Click to expand...


Are you claiming that everyone McCarthy drug before his committee was guilty of being a communist? HAHAHAHA, you should know better Frank.
"Don't take this personally but you suck as a private detective" Frank.
LOL, what about that is not personal Frank? 
But ok, I like those rules.
"All he wanted was for Congress to take a deeper look at State" Frank.
Yeah, sure right Frank. All those Hollywood producers, writers and actors were in the State Department.  
And you would want Congress, the leak Capital of the world to conduct our internal espionage?
You are a buffoon and a dumbass prick Frank but don't take it personal old boy.
Would not want you on a jury. You are gullible and naive as hell.


----------



## JakeStarkey

PoliticalChic said:


> <snip: nothing worthwhile from this hack>



you step off, creep.  You have twisted the facts to your sick philosophy.  Many, many people were hurt by that bastard, and you have not been able to refute that.  Where were all the commies he said were here, there, and under your bed?  The footnotes are twisted out of shape from the events and the logical conclusions.  Mark Rochelle is a hack, and you are a worse one for supporting him.

You two are obviously 'good' for each other, aren't you, sweetie.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Gadawg73 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Frank,let me appeal to your common sense and reason as I sincerely believe you have both.
> I am a licensed private detective for 30 years. I have investigated over 5000 cases, probably half criminal cases for defense lawyers.
> A few over the years there were innocent people drug into these cases by prosecutors, prosecuted and a few convicted. We call that the "shot gun" effect. Many times these folks were found not guilty after spending THEIR ENTIRELIFE SAVINGS defending themselves.
> Don't you frown on that Frank? Throw everyone under the bus and if one sticks then fine. Who cares who is guilty and who is innocent? Is that you Franks. I don't believe so.
> You do know that was the way McCarthy and Cohn ran their operation, don't you Frank? No one and let me repeat NO ONE is denying there were spies in our government. And I believe you do know there are STILL SPIES in our government as we debate here.
> The problem is you want to give A FREE PASS to the shot gun effect of the McCarthy era and accuse 10,000 people to prove there were 100 spies.
> And I believe you know better but refuse to admit it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't take this personally, but you suck as a private detective and don't have the first fucking clue how McCarthy and Cohn ran anything.
> 
> You should have some vague, passing familiarity with the facts and circumstances of McCarty's Central Thesis before you accuse him of a "Shotgun" effect.
> 
> President Truman prevented Congress from investigating the allegations of Communist infiltration of US State for years and that simmered until Feb 1950, when Joe McCarthy made a speech at Wheeling WV, saying that he was given a list from State of 57 Card carrying Communist at State. In the interest of fairness to them he refused to name them because he had so little evidence.  All he wanted was for Congress to take a deeper look at US State.
> 
> The Leftists then and now were the real McCarthyites, they threw everything at him and ignored all the facts all to protect the Comrades at State, Treasury, the Federal Reserve and World Bank.  Nothing changed in how the Left operates, unfortunately, the Left lost their media monopoly so all they have is spew, innuendo, ridicule and outright nonsense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are you claiming that everyone McCarthy drug before his committee was guilty of being a communist? HAHAHAHA, you should know better Frank.
> "Don't take this personally but you suck as a private detective" Frank.
> LOL, what about that is not personal Frank?
> But ok, I like those rules.
> "All he wanted was for Congress to take a deeper look at State" Frank.
> Yeah, sure right Frank. All those Hollywood producers, writers and actors were in the State Department.
> And you would want Congress, the leak Capital of the world to conduct our internal espionage?
> You are a buffoon and a dumbass prick Frank but don't take it personal old boy.
> Would not want you on a jury. You are gullible and naive as hell.
Click to expand...


See what I mean about you sucking and not having a clue?

McCarthy was focused on Soviet infiltration at US State and had NOTHING TO DO WITH ZERO MOSTEL or Hollywood Producers.

You got duped, which happens sometimes so there's no shame in it.  But after being told repeatedly you got duped and never bothering to take another look, well, shame on you.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

JakeStarkey said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> <snip: nothing worthwhile from this hack>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you step off, creep.  You have twisted the facts to your sick philosophy.  Many, many people were hurt by that bastard, and you have not been able to refute that.  Where were all the commies he said were here, there, and under your bed?  The footnotes are twisted out of shape from the events and the logical conclusions.  Mark Rochelle is a hack, and you are a worse one for supporting him.
> 
> You two are obviously 'good' for each other, aren't you, sweetie.
Click to expand...


Day 3: Still no Footnotes.

Name One Person hurt by that bastard.

Just One.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Don't have to play with the footnotes because they do not support what Mark says.  We would have to bring in quite a few other works that refute.  I have tried mentioning a few, and you all say, "no".  Doesn't matter, CF.  You guys are cranks, simple and pure.  You twist the facts to fit the philosophy.  The rest of the world knows that, and the 6 of you who disagree don't count.  Let's say it again: your opinion doesn't count because you can't support it.


----------



## HUGGY

Frankie... For the love of GOD!!!!  What is your POINT???  What end game do you have a glimmer of achieving?  So a guy wrote a friggin book...So What?  Maybe he discovered some info that was disregarded.  So What?  Obviously HIS point was to rile up people like yourself.  McCarthy's legacy is already written.  IT'S OVER!!!!  No politicians mark on history is written they way they would prefer it.  NO ONE'S 

Back then it was considered bad form to out right lie unlike today when lying is considered some kind of a sport.  

Sure there were some subversive communists in our country.  AND I'm sure some of them were placed by the USSR ... Everyone did that!!!  You don't think we had plants in the USSR? 

The biggest problem of the day was that people were not very sophisticated.  People took the governments word for just about everything.  That's the real reason why the commies had some small success.  Nobody questioned anyone in positions of relative power.  That attitude was born of the effort and one-ness of purpose in WWII.  

MY POINT is that some author cannot pull McCarthy's reputation out of the past because no matter what some self serving soviet spy said looking at it in today's enlightened environment is totally out of context.  Eisenhower hated McCarthy.  Eisenhower was the best informed man on the planet at the time.  Even though I was technically "There" , I was a child so my best witness is to the "way" things were more than specific hidden facts about McCarthy.  You have no idea "How things were" back then.  People performed rediculous dog and pony shows like "Duck and Cover" without question.  Commies had no chance of "taking over".  The ones spying just needed found out by the FBI and prosecuted for treason.  McCarthy's little "show" was way over the top, mean spirited and un-American and he paid for it.  It really is that simple. There was no need for his public hearings on un American activities.  It should have been done in closed doors and handled professionally.  It was not..it started a bad trend .. because of well meaning but phoneyover the top "patriotism" it got way out of hand.  Many people DID get hurt.  Many people were whipped up into a frenzy for no worthy pupose.  This morbid 60 years after the fact autopsy you are trying to sell is crap!.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Marcellus, you are equating Solzhenitsyn with McCarthy.  Your posting above does not support that.  Please post more.


----------



## Trajan

theDoctorisIn said:


> Joe McCarthy the hero: Who cares about all the innocent lives he ruined!
> 
> He saved us from the evil of Dalton Trumbo, Ring Lardner, and Paul Robeson.



Dalton Trumbo was a member of the cpusa, Ring was 'privately' a communist and Robeson was publicly condemned by the NAACP ( his situation was problematic at best I think he may have gotten hosed)... ....you know that, right?


----------



## Cecilie1200

Trajan said:


> theDoctorisIn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Joe McCarthy the hero: Who cares about all the innocent lives he ruined!
> 
> He saved us from the evil of Dalton Trumbo, Ring Lardner, and Paul Robeson.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dalton Trumbo was a member of the cpusa, Ring was 'privately' a communist and Robeson was publicly condemned by the NAACP ( his situation was problematic at best I think he may have gotten hosed)... ....you know that, right?
Click to expand...


Oh, and - of course - Joe McCarthy had nothing to do with any of those people.  We wouldn't want to forget THAT little tidbit, now would we?


----------



## JakeStarkey

Not personally, CeCilie1200, but, yes, he unleashed a regime of character assassination that injured those people.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

JakeStarkey said:


> Don't have to play with the footnotes because they do not support what Mark says.  We would have to bring in quite a few other works that refute.  I have tried mentioning a few, and you all say, "no".  Doesn't matter, CF.  You guys are cranks, simple and pure.  You twist the facts to fit the philosophy.  The rest of the world knows that, and the 6 of you who disagree don't count.  Let's say it again: your opinion doesn't count because you can't support it.



Jake, please site one footnote in the book you never read that does not support the central thesis.  Forget "Quite a few" the standard is one.

You have the points correct except that it is the Progressives who are not supported by any facts, none!  You cannot name a single person hurt by McCarthy!  You cannot site anything contradicting McCarthy's central thesis that US State was infiltrated by Communist spies.

But, please, don't give up!  Please keep coming back and pretending you have something valid to say.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

HUGGY said:


> Frankie... For the love of GOD!!!!  What is your POINT???  What end game do you have a glimmer of achieving?  So a guy wrote a friggin book...So What?  Maybe he discovered some info that was disregarded.  So What?  Obviously HIS point was to rile up people like yourself.  McCarthy's legacy is already written.  IT'S OVER!!!!  No politicians mark on history is written they way they would prefer it.  NO ONE'S
> 
> Back then it was considered bad form to out right lie unlike today when lying is considered some kind of a sport.
> 
> Sure there were some subversive communists in our country.  AND I'm sure some of them were placed by the USSR ... Everyone did that!!!  You don't think we had plants in the USSR?
> 
> The biggest problem of the day was that people were not very sophisticated.  People took the governments word for just about everything.  That's the real reason why the commies had some small success.  Nobody questioned anyone in positions of relative power.  That attitude was born of the effort and one-ness of purpose in WWII.
> 
> MY POINT is that some author cannot pull McCarthy's reputation out of the past because no matter what some self serving soviet spy said looking at it in today's enlightened environment is totally out of context.  Eisenhower hated McCarthy.  Eisenhower was the best informed man on the planet at the time.  Even though I was technically "There" , I was a child so my best witness is to the "way" things were more than specific hidden facts about McCarthy.  You have no idea "How things were" back then.  People performed rediculous dog and pony shows like "Duck and Cover" without question.  Commies had no chance of "taking over".  The ones spying just needed found out by the FBI and prosecuted for treason.  McCarthy's little "show" was way over the top, mean spirited and un-American and he paid for it.  It really is that simple. There was no need for his public hearings on un American activities.  It should have been done in closed doors and handled professionally.  It was not..it started a bad trend .. because of well meaning but phoneyover the top "patriotism" it got way out of hand.  Many people DID get hurt.  Many people were whipped up into a frenzy for no worthy pupose.  This morbid 60 years after the fact autopsy you are trying to sell is crap!.



You're repeating all the lies you were told for the past 50 years. 

If you refuse to read the book, that's not my problem, that's yours. The world has changed dramatically as new facts have come forth. If you choose to ignore them and stay with the fictional Progressive/Communist narrative about McCarthy, that's your problem, not mine.

In addition to the admissions from the Soviets themselves, the authors went through tens of thousands of pages of recently declassified FBI files (my grandfather is listed as "Citizen for Custodial Detention") and arrived at the conclusion that not only was McCarthy absolutely correct but vastly understated the nature of the problem, our own spy program notwithstanding.

Progressives destroyed McCarthy because he dared to pull the covers up on Communist penetration of US State which shifted policy to favor the Communist.

And it matters and matter greatly because Mao took control of China and Stalin took Eastern Europe because FDR listened to genuine Communist spies.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

JakeStarkey said:


> Not personally, CeCilie1200, but, yes, he unleashed a regime of character assassination that injured those people.



The ChiCom invasion of Korea had nothing to do with the Red Scare right?


----------



## HUGGY

CrusaderFrank said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> Frankie... For the love of GOD!!!!  What is your POINT???  What end game do you have a glimmer of achieving?  So a guy wrote a friggin book...So What?  Maybe he discovered some info that was disregarded.  So What?  Obviously HIS point was to rile up people like yourself.  McCarthy's legacy is already written.  IT'S OVER!!!!  No politicians mark on history is written they way they would prefer it.  NO ONE'S
> 
> Back then it was considered bad form to out right lie unlike today when lying is considered some kind of a sport.
> 
> Sure there were some subversive communists in our country.  AND I'm sure some of them were placed by the USSR ... Everyone did that!!!  You don't think we had plants in the USSR?
> 
> The biggest problem of the day was that people were not very sophisticated.  People took the governments word for just about everything.  That's the real reason why the commies had some small success.  Nobody questioned anyone in positions of relative power.  That attitude was born of the effort and one-ness of purpose in WWII.
> 
> MY POINT is that some author cannot pull McCarthy's reputation out of the past because no matter what some self serving soviet spy said looking at it in today's enlightened environment is totally out of context.  Eisenhower hated McCarthy.  Eisenhower was the best informed man on the planet at the time.  Even though I was technically "There" , I was a child so my best witness is to the "way" things were more than specific hidden facts about McCarthy.  You have no idea "How things were" back then.  People performed rediculous dog and pony shows like "Duck and Cover" without question.  Commies had no chance of "taking over".  The ones spying just needed found out by the FBI and prosecuted for treason.  McCarthy's little "show" was way over the top, mean spirited and un-American and he paid for it.  It really is that simple. There was no need for his public hearings on un American activities.  It should have been done in closed doors and handled professionally.  It was not..it started a bad trend .. because of well meaning but phoneyover the top "patriotism" it got way out of hand.  Many people DID get hurt.  Many people were whipped up into a frenzy for no worthy pupose.  This morbid 60 years after the fact autopsy you are trying to sell is crap!.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're repeating all the lies you were told for the past 50 years.
> 
> If you refuse to read the book, that's not my problem, that's yours. The world has changed dramatically as new facts have come forth. If you choose to ignore them and stay with the fictional Progressive/Communist narrative about McCarthy, that's your problem, not mine.
> 
> In addition to the admissions from the Soviets themselves, the authors went through tens of thousands of pages of recently declassified FBI files (my grandfather is listed as "Citizen for Custodial Detention") and arrived at the conclusion that not only was McCarthy absolutely correct but vastly understated the nature of the problem, our own spy program notwithstanding.
> 
> *Progressives destroyed McCarthy because he dared to pull the covers up on Communist penetration of US State which shifted policy to favor the Communist.*
> 
> And it matters and matter greatly because Mao took control of China and Staling took Eastern Europe because FDR listened to genuine Communist spies.
Click to expand...


This is where you fail.  McCarthy was destroyed precisely because as I have tried to make clear over and over there was an unbreakable trust in government and authority and McCarthy was making a spectical of himself and authority.  It had little or nothing to do with "liberalism".  Now we are really getting to the "point" you are trying to make and that is your obsession to blame all problems on "liberals".  Republicans were the "power" that destroyed McCarthy and you will not be able to make history change to make it otherwise.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

HUGGY said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> Frankie... For the love of GOD!!!!  What is your POINT???  What end game do you have a glimmer of achieving?  So a guy wrote a friggin book...So What?  Maybe he discovered some info that was disregarded.  So What?  Obviously HIS point was to rile up people like yourself.  McCarthy's legacy is already written.  IT'S OVER!!!!  No politicians mark on history is written they way they would prefer it.  NO ONE'S
> 
> Back then it was considered bad form to out right lie unlike today when lying is considered some kind of a sport.
> 
> Sure there were some subversive communists in our country.  AND I'm sure some of them were placed by the USSR ... Everyone did that!!!  You don't think we had plants in the USSR?
> 
> The biggest problem of the day was that people were not very sophisticated.  People took the governments word for just about everything.  That's the real reason why the commies had some small success.  Nobody questioned anyone in positions of relative power.  That attitude was born of the effort and one-ness of purpose in WWII.
> 
> MY POINT is that some author cannot pull McCarthy's reputation out of the past because no matter what some self serving soviet spy said looking at it in today's enlightened environment is totally out of context.  Eisenhower hated McCarthy.  Eisenhower was the best informed man on the planet at the time.  Even though I was technically "There" , I was a child so my best witness is to the "way" things were more than specific hidden facts about McCarthy.  You have no idea "How things were" back then.  People performed rediculous dog and pony shows like "Duck and Cover" without question.  Commies had no chance of "taking over".  The ones spying just needed found out by the FBI and prosecuted for treason.  McCarthy's little "show" was way over the top, mean spirited and un-American and he paid for it.  It really is that simple. There was no need for his public hearings on un American activities.  It should have been done in closed doors and handled professionally.  It was not..it started a bad trend .. because of well meaning but phoneyover the top "patriotism" it got way out of hand.  Many people DID get hurt.  Many people were whipped up into a frenzy for no worthy pupose.  This morbid 60 years after the fact autopsy you are trying to sell is crap!.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're repeating all the lies you were told for the past 50 years.
> 
> If you refuse to read the book, that's not my problem, that's yours. The world has changed dramatically as new facts have come forth. If you choose to ignore them and stay with the fictional Progressive/Communist narrative about McCarthy, that's your problem, not mine.
> 
> In addition to the admissions from the Soviets themselves, the authors went through tens of thousands of pages of recently declassified FBI files (my grandfather is listed as "Citizen for Custodial Detention") and arrived at the conclusion that not only was McCarthy absolutely correct but vastly understated the nature of the problem, our own spy program notwithstanding.
> 
> *Progressives destroyed McCarthy because he dared to pull the covers up on Communist penetration of US State which shifted policy to favor the Communist.*
> 
> And it matters and matter greatly because Mao took control of China and Staling took Eastern Europe because FDR listened to genuine Communist spies.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is where you fail.  McCarthy was destroyed precisely because as I have tried to make clear over and over there was an unbreakable trust in government and authority and McCarthy was making a spectical of himself and authority.  It had little or nothing to do with "liberalism".  Now we are really getting to the "point" you are trying to make and that is your obsession to blame all problems on "liberals".  Republicans were the "power" that destroyed McCarthy and you will not be able to make history change to make it otherwise.
Click to expand...


How can you trust a government once you realize the President is taking advise from genuine Communist spies like Alger Hiss, Lauchlin Currie, Owen Lattimore and Sol Adler and handing China to Mao because he was a "Progressive" and "Democratic"

It has to do with Communists positioning their people in key positions at State and having 2 Democrat Presidents gullible and or pliable enough to listen to them.

I'll say it again: on advise from Communist spies at State, US Policy toward China was turned away from Shek who was actually fighting the Japanese and helping us and directed toward history's greatest mass murderer, Mao.

That's why this matters and that's why you need to get you ass into the fact that in the year 2010 a lot has come out about this and it is Earth Shattering


----------



## HUGGY

CrusaderFrank said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> You're repeating all the lies you were told for the past 50 years.
> 
> If you refuse to read the book, that's not my problem, that's yours. The world has changed dramatically as new facts have come forth. If you choose to ignore them and stay with the fictional Progressive/Communist narrative about McCarthy, that's your problem, not mine.
> 
> In addition to the admissions from the Soviets themselves, the authors went through tens of thousands of pages of recently declassified FBI files (my grandfather is listed as "Citizen for Custodial Detention") and arrived at the conclusion that not only was McCarthy absolutely correct but vastly understated the nature of the problem, our own spy program notwithstanding.
> 
> *Progressives destroyed McCarthy because he dared to pull the covers up on Communist penetration of US State which shifted policy to favor the Communist.*
> 
> And it matters and matter greatly because Mao took control of China and Staling took Eastern Europe because FDR listened to genuine Communist spies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is where you fail.  McCarthy was destroyed precisely because as I have tried to make clear over and over there was an unbreakable trust in government and authority and McCarthy was making a spectical of himself and authority.  It had little or nothing to do with "liberalism".  Now we are really getting to the "point" you are trying to make and that is your obsession to blame all problems on "liberals".  Republicans were the "power" that destroyed McCarthy and you will not be able to make history change to make it otherwise.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> *How can you trust a government once you realize the President is taking advise from genuine Communist spies like Alger Hiss, Lauchlin Currie, Owen Lattimore and Sol Adler and handing China to Mao because he was a "Progressive" and "Democratic"*It has to do with Communists positioning their people in key positions at State and having 2 Democrat Presidents gullible and or pliable enough to listen to them.
> 
> I'll say it again: on advise from Communist spies at State, US Policy toward China was turned away from Shek who was actually fighting the Japanese and helping us and directed toward history's greatest mass murderer, Mao.
> 
> That's why this matters and that's why you need to get you ass into the fact that in the year 2010 a lot has come out about this and it is Earth Shattering
Click to expand...


I don't have to and that is my point entirely that that was then and this is now.  You are so desperate to blame the hapless liberals for everything that you over reach.  Frank... liberals are ineffective.  THAT is why I do not pick on them.  Liberals did not steal my party.  Fundimentalist Christian fascists did.

As far as China goes...I believe the reason our leaders sat back and watched silently as China devoured itself is the same reason why we allow it in Africa.  As difficult and morally wrong as it is to accept..the world is in a practical sense better for it.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

HUGGY said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is where you fail.  McCarthy was destroyed precisely because as I have tried to make clear over and over there was an unbreakable trust in government and authority and McCarthy was making a spectical of himself and authority.  It had little or nothing to do with "liberalism".  Now we are really getting to the "point" you are trying to make and that is your obsession to blame all problems on "liberals".  Republicans were the "power" that destroyed McCarthy and you will not be able to make history change to make it otherwise.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *How can you trust a government once you realize the President is taking advise from genuine Communist spies like Alger Hiss, Lauchlin Currie, Owen Lattimore and Sol Adler and handing China to Mao because he was a "Progressive" and "Democratic"*It has to do with Communists positioning their people in key positions at State and having 2 Democrat Presidents gullible and or pliable enough to listen to them.
> 
> I'll say it again: on advise from Communist spies at State, US Policy toward China was turned away from Shek who was actually fighting the Japanese and helping us and directed toward history's greatest mass murderer, Mao.
> 
> That's why this matters and that's why you need to get you ass into the fact that in the year 2010 a lot has come out about this and it is Earth Shattering
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't have to and that is my point entirely that that was then and this is now.  You are so desperate to blame the hapless liberals for everything that you over reach.  Frank... liberals are ineffective.  THAT is why I do not pick on them.  Liberals did not steal my party.  Fundimentalist Christian fascists did.
> 
> As far as China goes...I believe the reason our leaders sat back and watched silently as China devoured itself is the same reason why we allow it in Africa.  As difficult and morally wrong as it is to accept..the world is in a practical sense better for it.
Click to expand...


You can believe whatever the fuck you want, Communists at State had the US Government fuck Chiang Kai Shek over, threw him totally overboard and backed Mao.

That's the facts and they're ugly, but the Communists were not "Sitting back" but were proactively tipping US policy toward Mao.

Why do you think they wanted control of US State?

Just go read the one chapter dealing with Mao.  That's it, just one chapter


----------



## HUGGY

CrusaderFrank said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> *How can you trust a government once you realize the President is taking advise from genuine Communist spies like Alger Hiss, Lauchlin Currie, Owen Lattimore and Sol Adler and handing China to Mao because he was a "Progressive" and "Democratic"*It has to do with Communists positioning their people in key positions at State and having 2 Democrat Presidents gullible and or pliable enough to listen to them.
> 
> I'll say it again: on advise from Communist spies at State, US Policy toward China was turned away from Shek who was actually fighting the Japanese and helping us and directed toward history's greatest mass murderer, Mao.
> 
> That's why this matters and that's why you need to get you ass into the fact that in the year 2010 a lot has come out about this and it is Earth Shattering
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't have to and that is my point entirely that that was then and this is now.  You are so desperate to blame the hapless liberals for everything that you over reach.  Frank... liberals are ineffective.  THAT is why I do not pick on them.  Liberals did not steal my party.  Fundimentalist Christian fascists did.
> 
> As far as China goes...I believe the reason our leaders sat back and watched silently as China devoured itself is the same reason why we allow it in Africa.  As difficult and morally wrong as it is to accept..the world is in a practical sense better for it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You can believe whatever the fuck you want, Communists at State had the US Government fuck Chiang Kai Shek over, threw him totally overboard and backed Mao.
> 
> That's the facts and they're ugly, but the Communists were not "Sitting back" but were proactively tipping US policy toward Mao.
> 
> Why do you think they wanted control of US State?
> 
> Just go read the one chapter dealing with Mao.  That's it, just one chapter
Click to expand...


SOOOooo....?????  You are pissed off that there aren't another Billion Chinese to worry about....???  Tell me frankie...How desperate do you think the Chinese would be for world resources if they had another billion mouths to feed and no controls over thier population so let's say in another 20 - 40 years thier fucking population doubles???  Frank ..at some point and time along the way you have to throw your ideoligy out the window and just fucking face the brutal reality of a situation.  I don't care that Mao ascended to power..At a very certain point it does not matter if the 5-10 billion hungry humans are commies or republican christians.  They are in fact your enemy if you want to eat.


----------



## Cecilie1200

It shocks me that anyone has to ask why knowing the truth matters.

And if it DIDN'T matter, why would leftists be trying so hard to protect and keep intact the web of lies they've spent the last fifty years spinning around McCarthy?


----------



## uscitizen

700+ posts on this topic?
Un fragging believable.

Enjoy.


----------



## ginscpy

Buried in a nondescript grave in Appleton. Wis.   My mother knew him.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

And yet history has now vindicated him as a Patriot, willing to stand up and fight for American Principles and beliefs against insurmountable odds, exposing the massive extent of the Communist penetration into US Society and government.

The New Definition of McCarthyism: When Progressives try to drown out the truth with spew and hatred and nothing else

Day 5: Still no footnote.


----------



## JakeStarkey

No, history has condemned Joe as an enemy of American way of life, willing to demogogue (which CF and CC1200 do all the time), and an enemy of free speech and freedom of conscience.

The new definition of McCarthyism: when right thinking Americans make sure the truth is not drowned by the lies and hatred of reactionaries.

All six of you in the country, once again, have a right to your beliefs, but not to your own reality.


----------



## PoliticalChic

JakeStarkey said:


> No, history has condemned Joe as an enemy of American way of life, willing to demogogue (which CF and CC1200 do all the time), and an enemy of free speech and freedom of conscience.
> 
> The new definition of McCarthyism: when right thinking Americans make sure the truth is not drowned by the lies and hatred of reactionaries.
> 
> All six of you in the country, once again, have a right to your beliefs, but not to your own reality.



Putrid Prevaricator <->  StarkRaving

This is known as lateral movement on the intellectual flow chart.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

JakeStarkey said:


> No, history has condemned Joe as an enemy of American way of life, willing to demogogue (which CF and CC1200 do all the time), and an enemy of free speech and freedom of conscience.
> 
> The new definition of McCarthyism: when right thinking Americans make sure the truth is not drowned by the lies and hatred of reactionaries.
> 
> All six of you in the country, once again, have a right to your beliefs, but not to your own reality.



PC already swiftly dissected your stupid post like a Biology Class Frog, but let me be clear, we have tens of thousands of pages of freshly released documents by the FBI describing in great detail the extent of the Communist penetration of US State.  

All McCarthy had at the time was a memo provided him by a State employee who was also concerned with Communist infiltration of State and POTUS Truman's apparent covering up the extent of the infiltration by refusing to allow Congress to investigate.  

McCarthy was asking if Congress should take a deeper look and he was lambasted for it by Communists and their American Progressive Sock Puppets.

Here we are 60 years after the Feb 1950 Wheeling WV Speech that started it and from a evidentiary stand point it like the difference between examining microbes with a magnifying glass or a scanning electron microscope, between gazing at the night sky with a crappy little telescope or the Hubble.

So much new data has come forth that the Progressive McCarthites MUST ignore, because it shatters and make a lie of their core thesis: that McCarthy was something other than a concerned Patriot with his hand on the Communist throat.


----------



## PoliticalChic

CrusaderFrank said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, history has condemned Joe as an enemy of American way of life, willing to demogogue (which CF and CC1200 do all the time), and an enemy of free speech and freedom of conscience.
> 
> The new definition of McCarthyism: when right thinking Americans make sure the truth is not drowned by the lies and hatred of reactionaries.
> 
> All six of you in the country, once again, have a right to your beliefs, but not to your own reality.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PC already swiftly dissected your stupid post like a Biology Class Frog, but let me be clear, we have tens of thousands of pages of freshly released documents by the FBI describing in great detail the extent of the Communist penetration of US State.
> 
> All McCarthy had at the time was a memo provided him by a State employee who was also concerned with Communist infiltration of State and POTUS Truman's apparent covering up the extent of the infiltration by refusing to allow Congress to investigate.
> 
> McCarthy was asking if Congress should take a deeper look and he was lambasted for it by Communists and their American Progressive Sock Puppets.
> 
> Here we are 60 years after the Feb 1950 Wheeling WV Speech that started it and from a evidentiary stand point it like the difference between examining microbes with a magnifying glass or a scanning electron microscope, between gazing at the night sky with a crappy little telescope or the Hubble.
> 
> So much new data has come forth that the Progressive McCarthites MUST ignore, because it shatters and make a lie of their core thesis: that McCarthy was something other than a concerned Patriot with his hand on the Communist throat.
Click to expand...


Frank, kudos to you for this thread, and the mighty efforts in disabusing our less informed compatriots about this aspect of American history.

If I may expand it just a bit, nothing is more demonstrative as to how cerebrally hog-tied our friends are as the comparison of the ire that they can muster about Senator McCarthy and his revelations, relative to the mute ignorance that they exhibit about actual destruction to America and American values, perpetuated by the first Progressive President.

1. The Red Scare intensified in June 1919, when Attorney General Palmer, who claimed to have *a list of 60,000 subversives*, engaged in a series of *warrantless raids *aimed at capturing the mostly immigrant red radicals, some of whom were *jailed* or shipped back to Russia. With no reproach from Wilson, Palmer trampled on civil liberties and harassed the innocent as well as the likely guilty.

None of the bolded above is true of Senator McCarthy.

2.. During WW I, under the Progressive Woodrow Wilson, *American was a fascist nation*.
1.	Had the world&#8217;s first modern propaganda ministry
2.	Political prisoners by the thousands were harassed, beaten, spied upon and thrown in jail for simply expressing private opinions. 
3.	The national leader accused foreigners and immigrants of injecting treasonous &#8216;poison&#8217; into the  American bloodstream
4.	Newspapers and magazines were closed for criticizing the government
5.	Almost 100,000 government propaganda agents were sent out to whip up support for the regime and the war
6.	College professors imposed loyalty oaths on their colleagues 
7.	Nearly a quarter million &#8216;goons&#8217; were given legal authority to beat and intimidate &#8216;slackers&#8217; and dissenters
8.	Leading artists and writers dedicated their work to proselytizing for the government.
http://www.ncpa.org/pdfs/Classical_Liberalism_vs_Modern_Liberal_Conservatism.pdf p. 9


3. The Wilson Propaganda Ministry
a.	George Creel was named to head the Committee on Public Information, the CPI. How liberal was he: &#8220;served as police commissioner in Denver, depriving policemen of guns and nightsticks&#8221;(JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie)  Fear was a vital tool, &#8220;an important element to be bred into the civilian population.&#8221; (Goldberg, &#8220;Liberal Fascism,&#8221; p.109) He recruited about 75,000 "Four Minute Men," who spoke about the War at social events for an ideal length of four minutes, considering that the average human attention span was judged at the time to be four minutes.( George Creel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

b.	The official position of the US government's Committee on Public Information was: "The force of an idea lies in its inspirational value. It matters very little if it is true or false." Journal of Translational Medicine | Full text | Comments on the nonpharmaceutical interventions in New York City and Chicago during the 1918 influenza pandemic

c.	Wilson&#8217;s Sedition Act, May 1918 banned &#8220;uttering, printing, writing, or publishing any disloyal, profane, scurrilous, or abusive language about the United States government  of the military.

d.	The postmaster general had authority to deny mailing privileges to any publication: at least 75 were banned. The supply of newsprint was halted by the War Industries Board of any journal that disparaged the draft.  

e.	The censorship of &#8220;The Masses&#8221; was prosecuted under the Espionage Act of June 1917, because it carried a cartoon proclaiming that it was a war to &#8220;make the world safe for capitalism,&#8221; and editorials praising draft resistors. Six editors&#8217; trial resulted in hung juries. 

f.	He proclaimed that the greatest threat came from &#8216;hyphenated&#8217; Americans: &#8220;I cannot say too often- any man who carries a hyphen about with him carries a dagger that he is ready to plunge into the vitals of this Republic whenever he gets ready.&#8221; CONGRESS CHEERS AS WILSON URGES CURB ON PLOTTERS - Wild Applause Greets the President's Denunciation of Disloyal Citizens. ACCLAIM DEFENSE PLANS Members of Both Parties Express Approval of His Sentiments on Preparedness. UPHOLDS PAN-AMERICANISM Warns

g.	&#8220;The Nation, on April 17, 1920, recounted how a clothing salesman received six months in jail for saying that Vladimir Lenin was smart.&#8221; "The Most Brainiest Man?" The Red Scare and Free Speech in Connecticut   Because the Oklahoma Council of Defense was an extralegal organization, numerous incidents of extreme measures occurred to eliminate dissent. Men were beaten with leather straps and tarred and feathered. OKLAHOMA COUNCIL OF DEFENSE

4.	The Justice Department had its own quasi-official fascisti, the American Protective League, the APL. They has &#8216;Secret Service&#8217; badges, and were charged with keeping an eye on neighbors, co-workers and friends, including reading neighbor&#8217;s mail and listening in on their phones with government approval. Membership exceeded a quarter million. Zinn, Howard, &#8220;The Twentieth Century: A People&#8217;s History,&#8221; p.89-92

a.	In Rockford, Illinois, the army asked the APL to extract confessions from 21 black soldiers charged with assaulting white women. Barry, &#8220;The Great Influenza,&#8221; p. 124.

b.	The APL Vigilante Patrol cracked down on &#8220;seditious street oratory,&#8221; and as &#8216;head crackers&#8217; against &#8216;slackers&#8217; who avoided conscription.


And yet, the uneducated in this thread, relying on the liberal media and government schools, have the gall to affront Senator McCarthy for spotlighting lacunae in the Democrat administrations who hired and promoted paid agents of the Soviet Communist conspiracy.

This would almost be understandable, except for the fact they have library cards, the internet, and Amazon.com....

The persistence of ignorance...but, Frank, you will be able to use the words of Admiral Nelson at Trafalgar, "Thank God, I have done my duty."

Again, good work!


----------



## CrusaderFrank

PoliticalChic said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, history has condemned Joe as an enemy of American way of life, willing to demogogue (which CF and CC1200 do all the time), and an enemy of free speech and freedom of conscience.
> 
> The new definition of McCarthyism: when right thinking Americans make sure the truth is not drowned by the lies and hatred of reactionaries.
> 
> All six of you in the country, once again, have a right to your beliefs, but not to your own reality.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PC already swiftly dissected your stupid post like a Biology Class Frog, but let me be clear, we have tens of thousands of pages of freshly released documents by the FBI describing in great detail the extent of the Communist penetration of US State.
> 
> All McCarthy had at the time was a memo provided him by a State employee who was also concerned with Communist infiltration of State and POTUS Truman's apparent covering up the extent of the infiltration by refusing to allow Congress to investigate.
> 
> McCarthy was asking if Congress should take a deeper look and he was lambasted for it by Communists and their American Progressive Sock Puppets.
> 
> Here we are 60 years after the Feb 1950 Wheeling WV Speech that started it and from a evidentiary stand point it like the difference between examining microbes with a magnifying glass or a scanning electron microscope, between gazing at the night sky with a crappy little telescope or the Hubble.
> 
> So much new data has come forth that the Progressive McCarthites MUST ignore, because it shatters and make a lie of their core thesis: that McCarthy was something other than a concerned Patriot with his hand on the Communist throat.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Frank, kudos to you for this thread, and the mighty efforts in disabusing our less informed compatriots about this aspect of American history.
> 
> If I may expand it just a bit, nothing is more demonstrative as to how cerebrally hog-tied our friends are as the comparison of the ire that they can muster about Senator McCarthy and his revelations, relative to the mute ignorance that they exhibit about actual destruction to America and American values, perpetuated by the first Progressive President.
> 
> 1. The Red Scare intensified in June 1919, when Attorney General Palmer, who claimed to have *a list of 60,000 subversives*, engaged in a series of *warrantless raids *aimed at capturing the mostly immigrant red radicals, some of whom were *jailed* or shipped back to Russia. With no reproach from Wilson, Palmer trampled on civil liberties and harassed the innocent as well as the likely guilty.
> 
> None of the bolded above is true of Senator McCarthy.
> 
> 2.. During WW I, under the Progressive Woodrow Wilson, *American was a fascist nation*.
> 1.	Had the worlds first modern propaganda ministry
> 2.	Political prisoners by the thousands were harassed, beaten, spied upon and thrown in jail for simply expressing private opinions.
> 3.	The national leader accused foreigners and immigrants of injecting treasonous poison into the  American bloodstream
> 4.	Newspapers and magazines were closed for criticizing the government
> 5.	Almost 100,000 government propaganda agents were sent out to whip up support for the regime and the war
> 6.	College professors imposed loyalty oaths on their colleagues
> 7.	Nearly a quarter million goons were given legal authority to beat and intimidate slackers and dissenters
> 8.	Leading artists and writers dedicated their work to proselytizing for the government.
> http://www.ncpa.org/pdfs/Classical_Liberalism_vs_Modern_Liberal_Conservatism.pdf p. 9
> 
> 
> 3. The Wilson Propaganda Ministry
> a.	George Creel was named to head the Committee on Public Information, the CPI. How liberal was he: served as police commissioner in Denver, depriving policemen of guns and nightsticks(JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie)  Fear was a vital tool, an important element to be bred into the civilian population. (Goldberg, Liberal Fascism, p.109) He recruited about 75,000 "Four Minute Men," who spoke about the War at social events for an ideal length of four minutes, considering that the average human attention span was judged at the time to be four minutes.( George Creel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
> 
> b.	The official position of the US government's Committee on Public Information was: "The force of an idea lies in its inspirational value. It matters very little if it is true or false." Journal of Translational Medicine | Full text | Comments on the nonpharmaceutical interventions in New York City and Chicago during the 1918 influenza pandemic
> 
> c.	Wilsons Sedition Act, May 1918 banned uttering, printing, writing, or publishing any disloyal, profane, scurrilous, or abusive language about the United States government  of the military.
> 
> d.	The postmaster general had authority to deny mailing privileges to any publication: at least 75 were banned. The supply of newsprint was halted by the War Industries Board of any journal that disparaged the draft.
> 
> e.	The censorship of The Masses was prosecuted under the Espionage Act of June 1917, because it carried a cartoon proclaiming that it was a war to make the world safe for capitalism, and editorials praising draft resistors. Six editors trial resulted in hung juries.
> 
> f.	He proclaimed that the greatest threat came from hyphenated Americans: I cannot say too often- any man who carries a hyphen about with him carries a dagger that he is ready to plunge into the vitals of this Republic whenever he gets ready. CONGRESS CHEERS AS WILSON URGES CURB ON PLOTTERS - Wild Applause Greets the President's Denunciation of Disloyal Citizens. ACCLAIM DEFENSE PLANS Members of Both Parties Express Approval of His Sentiments on Preparedness. UPHOLDS PAN-AMERICANISM Warns
> 
> g.	The Nation, on April 17, 1920, recounted how a clothing salesman received six months in jail for saying that Vladimir Lenin was smart. "The Most Brainiest Man?" The Red Scare and Free Speech in Connecticut   Because the Oklahoma Council of Defense was an extralegal organization, numerous incidents of extreme measures occurred to eliminate dissent. Men were beaten with leather straps and tarred and feathered. OKLAHOMA COUNCIL OF DEFENSE
> 
> 4.	The Justice Department had its own quasi-official fascisti, the American Protective League, the APL. They has Secret Service badges, and were charged with keeping an eye on neighbors, co-workers and friends, including reading neighbors mail and listening in on their phones with government approval. Membership exceeded a quarter million. Zinn, Howard, The Twentieth Century: A Peoples History, p.89-92
> 
> a.	In Rockford, Illinois, the army asked the APL to extract confessions from 21 black soldiers charged with assaulting white women. Barry, The Great Influenza, p. 124.
> 
> b.	The APL Vigilante Patrol cracked down on seditious street oratory, and as head crackers against slackers who avoided conscription.
> 
> 
> And yet, the uneducated in this thread, relying on the liberal media and government schools, have the gall to affront Senator McCarthy for spotlighting lacunae in the Democrat administrations who hired and promoted paid agents of the Soviet Communist conspiracy.
> 
> This would almost be understandable, except for the fact they have library cards, the internet, and Amazon.com....
> 
> The persistence of ignorance...but, Frank, you will be able to use the words of Admiral Nelson at Trafalgar, "Thank God, I have done my duty."
> 
> Again, good work!
Click to expand...


I hate to admit it, but I didn't know this about Wilson. It's not surprising that he was a vicious anti American scumbag, considering he gave us a Central Bank and neutron bombed the States with the 16th Amendment.


----------



## Gadawg73

CrusaderFrank said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't take this personally, but you suck as a private detective and don't have the first fucking clue how McCarthy and Cohn ran anything.
> 
> You should have some vague, passing familiarity with the facts and circumstances of McCarty's Central Thesis before you accuse him of a "Shotgun" effect.
> 
> President Truman prevented Congress from investigating the allegations of Communist infiltration of US State for years and that simmered until Feb 1950, when Joe McCarthy made a speech at Wheeling WV, saying that he was given a list from State of 57 Card carrying Communist at State. In the interest of fairness to them he refused to name them because he had so little evidence.  All he wanted was for Congress to take a deeper look at US State.
> 
> The Leftists then and now were the real McCarthyites, they threw everything at him and ignored all the facts all to protect the Comrades at State, Treasury, the Federal Reserve and World Bank.  Nothing changed in how the Left operates, unfortunately, the Left lost their media monopoly so all they have is spew, innuendo, ridicule and outright nonsense.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you claiming that everyone McCarthy drug before his committee was guilty of being a communist? HAHAHAHA, you should know better Frank.
> "Don't take this personally but you suck as a private detective" Frank.
> LOL, what about that is not personal Frank?
> But ok, I like those rules.
> "All he wanted was for Congress to take a deeper look at State" Frank.
> Yeah, sure right Frank. All those Hollywood producers, writers and actors were in the State Department.
> And you would want Congress, the leak Capital of the world to conduct our internal espionage?
> You are a buffoon and a dumbass prick Frank but don't take it personal old boy.
> Would not want you on a jury. You are gullible and naive as hell.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> See what I mean about you sucking and not having a clue?
> 
> McCarthy was focused on Soviet infiltration at US State and had NOTHING TO DO WITH ZERO MOSTEL or Hollywood Producers.
> 
> You got duped, which happens sometimes so there's no shame in it.  But after being told repeatedly you got duped and never bothering to take another look, well, shame on you.
Click to expand...


You are absolutely right on the Hollywood witch hunt as that was before the McCarthy hearings and I stand corrected and I was totally wrong on that point.
But you do agree that was also a witch hunt, don't you?
How many officers in the Army did McCarthy flush out and how many did he accuse that were innocent? You claim he was focused on infiltration at State and that it is not so. Voice of America and others also.
But again, you corrected me on the Hollywood witch hunts as he was not a part of that but I saw no effort on his part to clear all of the falsely accused with his hearings. His hearings compounded the red scare hysteria as Truman and Eisenhower stated.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Gadawg73 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you claiming that everyone McCarthy drug before his committee was guilty of being a communist? HAHAHAHA, you should know better Frank.
> "Don't take this personally but you suck as a private detective" Frank.
> LOL, what about that is not personal Frank?
> But ok, I like those rules.
> "All he wanted was for Congress to take a deeper look at State" Frank.
> Yeah, sure right Frank. All those Hollywood producers, writers and actors were in the State Department.
> And you would want Congress, the leak Capital of the world to conduct our internal espionage?
> You are a buffoon and a dumbass prick Frank but don't take it personal old boy.
> Would not want you on a jury. You are gullible and naive as hell.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See what I mean about you sucking and not having a clue?
> 
> McCarthy was focused on Soviet infiltration at US State and had NOTHING TO DO WITH ZERO MOSTEL or Hollywood Producers.
> 
> You got duped, which happens sometimes so there's no shame in it.  But after being told repeatedly you got duped and never bothering to take another look, well, shame on you.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are absolutely right on the Hollywood witch hunt as that was before the McCarthy hearings and I stand corrected and I was totally wrong on that point.
> But you do agree that was also a witch hunt, don't you?
> How many officers in the Army did McCarthy flush out and how many did he accuse that were innocent? You claim he was focused on infiltration at State and that it is not so. Voice of America and others also.
> But again, you corrected me on the Hollywood witch hunts as he was not a part of that but I saw no effort on his part to clear all of the falsely accused with his hearings. His hearings compounded the red scare hysteria as Truman and Eisenhower stated.
Click to expand...


First, I apologize for my tone.  My frustration is that I'm trying to tell people the Earth is round and so few hear it and just want to keep telling me they learned it was flat and that all they know.

I'm glad you saw part of the error regarding the Hollywood Blacklisting, but the far larger problem is how correct McCarthy was about Communist infiltration at State and it mattered because they steered US policy toward Stalin and Mao.

There was no McCarthy WITCH HUNT!!!!  It never happened!

He asked Congress to investigate Communist Inflirtration at State and he was treated like a War Criminal for exposing it.

The "Red Scare" started because the ChioComs started the Korean War 4 months after McCarthy asked these questions for the first time.  That's why Korea is the "Forgotten War"

I promise I'll try not to be a dick, but please, please, please try ti understand that the information is so very different from what we first were told.


----------



## Cecilie1200

CrusaderFrank said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> PC already swiftly dissected your stupid post like a Biology Class Frog, but let me be clear, we have tens of thousands of pages of freshly released documents by the FBI describing in great detail the extent of the Communist penetration of US State.
> 
> All McCarthy had at the time was a memo provided him by a State employee who was also concerned with Communist infiltration of State and POTUS Truman's apparent covering up the extent of the infiltration by refusing to allow Congress to investigate.
> 
> McCarthy was asking if Congress should take a deeper look and he was lambasted for it by Communists and their American Progressive Sock Puppets.
> 
> Here we are 60 years after the Feb 1950 Wheeling WV Speech that started it and from a evidentiary stand point it like the difference between examining microbes with a magnifying glass or a scanning electron microscope, between gazing at the night sky with a crappy little telescope or the Hubble.
> 
> So much new data has come forth that the Progressive McCarthites MUST ignore, because it shatters and make a lie of their core thesis: that McCarthy was something other than a concerned Patriot with his hand on the Communist throat.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Frank, kudos to you for this thread, and the mighty efforts in disabusing our less informed compatriots about this aspect of American history.
> 
> If I may expand it just a bit, nothing is more demonstrative as to how cerebrally hog-tied our friends are as the comparison of the ire that they can muster about Senator McCarthy and his revelations, relative to the mute ignorance that they exhibit about actual destruction to America and American values, perpetuated by the first Progressive President.
> 
> 1. The Red Scare intensified in June 1919, when Attorney General Palmer, who claimed to have *a list of 60,000 subversives*, engaged in a series of *warrantless raids *aimed at capturing the mostly immigrant red radicals, some of whom were *jailed* or shipped back to Russia. With no reproach from Wilson, Palmer trampled on civil liberties and harassed the innocent as well as the likely guilty.
> 
> None of the bolded above is true of Senator McCarthy.
> 
> 2.. During WW I, under the Progressive Woodrow Wilson, *American was a fascist nation*.
> 1.	Had the worlds first modern propaganda ministry
> 2.	Political prisoners by the thousands were harassed, beaten, spied upon and thrown in jail for simply expressing private opinions.
> 3.	The national leader accused foreigners and immigrants of injecting treasonous poison into the  American bloodstream
> 4.	Newspapers and magazines were closed for criticizing the government
> 5.	Almost 100,000 government propaganda agents were sent out to whip up support for the regime and the war
> 6.	College professors imposed loyalty oaths on their colleagues
> 7.	Nearly a quarter million goons were given legal authority to beat and intimidate slackers and dissenters
> 8.	Leading artists and writers dedicated their work to proselytizing for the government.
> http://www.ncpa.org/pdfs/Classical_Liberalism_vs_Modern_Liberal_Conservatism.pdf p. 9
> 
> 
> 3. The Wilson Propaganda Ministry
> a.	George Creel was named to head the Committee on Public Information, the CPI. How liberal was he: served as police commissioner in Denver, depriving policemen of guns and nightsticks(JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie)  Fear was a vital tool, an important element to be bred into the civilian population. (Goldberg, Liberal Fascism, p.109) He recruited about 75,000 "Four Minute Men," who spoke about the War at social events for an ideal length of four minutes, considering that the average human attention span was judged at the time to be four minutes.( George Creel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
> 
> b.	The official position of the US government's Committee on Public Information was: "The force of an idea lies in its inspirational value. It matters very little if it is true or false." Journal of Translational Medicine | Full text | Comments on the nonpharmaceutical interventions in New York City and Chicago during the 1918 influenza pandemic
> 
> c.	Wilsons Sedition Act, May 1918 banned uttering, printing, writing, or publishing any disloyal, profane, scurrilous, or abusive language about the United States government  of the military.
> 
> d.	The postmaster general had authority to deny mailing privileges to any publication: at least 75 were banned. The supply of newsprint was halted by the War Industries Board of any journal that disparaged the draft.
> 
> e.	The censorship of The Masses was prosecuted under the Espionage Act of June 1917, because it carried a cartoon proclaiming that it was a war to make the world safe for capitalism, and editorials praising draft resistors. Six editors trial resulted in hung juries.
> 
> f.	He proclaimed that the greatest threat came from hyphenated Americans: I cannot say too often- any man who carries a hyphen about with him carries a dagger that he is ready to plunge into the vitals of this Republic whenever he gets ready. CONGRESS CHEERS AS WILSON URGES CURB ON PLOTTERS - Wild Applause Greets the President's Denunciation of Disloyal Citizens. ACCLAIM DEFENSE PLANS Members of Both Parties Express Approval of His Sentiments on Preparedness. UPHOLDS PAN-AMERICANISM Warns
> 
> g.	The Nation, on April 17, 1920, recounted how a clothing salesman received six months in jail for saying that Vladimir Lenin was smart. "The Most Brainiest Man?" The Red Scare and Free Speech in Connecticut   Because the Oklahoma Council of Defense was an extralegal organization, numerous incidents of extreme measures occurred to eliminate dissent. Men were beaten with leather straps and tarred and feathered. OKLAHOMA COUNCIL OF DEFENSE
> 
> 4.	The Justice Department had its own quasi-official fascisti, the American Protective League, the APL. They has Secret Service badges, and were charged with keeping an eye on neighbors, co-workers and friends, including reading neighbors mail and listening in on their phones with government approval. Membership exceeded a quarter million. Zinn, Howard, The Twentieth Century: A Peoples History, p.89-92
> 
> a.	In Rockford, Illinois, the army asked the APL to extract confessions from 21 black soldiers charged with assaulting white women. Barry, The Great Influenza, p. 124.
> 
> b.	The APL Vigilante Patrol cracked down on seditious street oratory, and as head crackers against slackers who avoided conscription.
> 
> 
> And yet, the uneducated in this thread, relying on the liberal media and government schools, have the gall to affront Senator McCarthy for spotlighting lacunae in the Democrat administrations who hired and promoted paid agents of the Soviet Communist conspiracy.
> 
> This would almost be understandable, except for the fact they have library cards, the internet, and Amazon.com....
> 
> The persistence of ignorance...but, Frank, you will be able to use the words of Admiral Nelson at Trafalgar, "Thank God, I have done my duty."
> 
> Again, good work!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I hate to admit it, but I didn't know this about Wilson. It's not surprising that he was a vicious anti American scumbag, considering he gave us a Central Bank and neutron bombed the States with the 16th Amendment.
Click to expand...


I knew this about Wilson, although I didn't know quite that many specifics.  If I remember correctly, he lied us into WWI, too.


----------



## Cecilie1200

CrusaderFrank said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> See what I mean about you sucking and not having a clue?
> 
> McCarthy was focused on Soviet infiltration at US State and had NOTHING TO DO WITH ZERO MOSTEL or Hollywood Producers.
> 
> You got duped, which happens sometimes so there's no shame in it.  But after being told repeatedly you got duped and never bothering to take another look, well, shame on you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are absolutely right on the Hollywood witch hunt as that was before the McCarthy hearings and I stand corrected and I was totally wrong on that point.
> But you do agree that was also a witch hunt, don't you?
> How many officers in the Army did McCarthy flush out and how many did he accuse that were innocent? You claim he was focused on infiltration at State and that it is not so. Voice of America and others also.
> But again, you corrected me on the Hollywood witch hunts as he was not a part of that but I saw no effort on his part to clear all of the falsely accused with his hearings. His hearings compounded the red scare hysteria as Truman and Eisenhower stated.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> First, I apologize for my tone.  My frustration is that I'm trying to tell people the Earth is round and so few hear it and just want to keep telling me they learned it was flat and that all they know.
> 
> I'm glad you saw part of the error regarding the Hollywood Blacklisting, but the far larger problem is how correct McCarthy was about Communist infiltration at State and it mattered because they steered US policy toward Stalin and Mao.
> 
> There was no McCarthy WITCH HUNT!!!!  It never happened!
> 
> He asked Congress to investigate Communist Inflirtration at State and he was treated like a War Criminal for exposing it.
> 
> The "Red Scare" started because the ChioComs started the Korean War 4 months after McCarthy asked these questions for the first time.  That's why Korea is the "Forgotten War"
> 
> I promise I'll try not to be a dick, but please, please, please try ti understand that the information is so very different from what we first were told.
Click to expand...


I would also like to point out that it wasn't McCarthy's job to "try to clear the names" of the people blacklisted in Hollywood.  Again, his committee was about GOVERNMENT oversight, not Hollywood.

Also, as to Gadawg's question of "how many did he accuse who were innocent", that's HIS assertion, not yours or mine, so it's up to HIM to tell us about accused innocents, not us to prove him right.


----------



## JakeStarkey

PC has an epic fail, and CeCelie1200 and CrusaderFrank have been torn apart.

All your ranting and chanting, you three stooges, does not change that you have epically failed.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

JakeStarkey said:


> PC has an epic fail, and CeCelie1200 and CrusaderFrank have been torn apart.
> 
> All your ranting and chanting, you three stooges, does not change that you have epically failed.



Day 6: Where's the Footnote.  One Footnote. Just one (1).


----------



## JakeStarkey

You three remind me of some of the fascist journalists and propaganda people in Italy during the mid-1920s.  They were awful.

Frank: that was dealt with already.  Mark can fight his own battles, and has been, I heard, getting his ass kicked elsewhere.  Anybody can read the book on their own, study the footnotes and conclusions, and realize the work is a hoax.


----------



## Cecilie1200

CrusaderFrank said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> PC has an epic fail, and CeCelie1200 and CrusaderFrank have been torn apart.
> 
> All your ranting and chanting, you three stooges, does not change that you have epically failed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Day 6: Where's the Footnote.  One Footnote. Just one (1).
Click to expand...


I'm curious.  Just how high are you prepared to count?  'Cause you know he's never going to answer you.


----------



## PoliticalChic

Cecilie1200 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> PC has an epic fail, and CeCelie1200 and CrusaderFrank have been torn apart.
> 
> All your ranting and chanting, you three stooges, does not change that you have epically failed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Day 6: Where's the Footnote.  One Footnote. Just one (1).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm curious.  Just how high are you prepared to count?  'Cause you know he's never going to answer you.
Click to expand...


Cecilie is correct, you know.

You're dealing with a cypher whose lonliness is assuaged by the appearance of participating in an intellectual endeavor, while, in actuallity, he simply denies, refuses dispositive evidence and documentation, and casts aspirsions...

He knows knothing, and learns even less.

On the other hand, as the number who read a thread far outdistances the number who post, this know-nothing is the perfect foil for our revealing the truth about his period in American history...


----------



## CrusaderFrank

JakeStarkey said:


> You three remind me of some of the fascist journalists and propaganda people in Italy during the mid-1920s.  They were awful.
> 
> Frank: that was dealt with already.  Mark can fight his own battles, and has been, I heard, getting his ass kicked elsewhere.  Anybody can read the book on their own, study the footnotes and conclusions, and realize the work is a hoax.



Jake what was it like in Italy during the 20's?

Mark's been getting his ass kicked, you mean like you kicked it where you had nothing in response to any of his challenges.

Maybe you can link up to some of this imaginary asskicking, but you still owe me the one (1) footnote


----------



## HUGGY

Aren't McCarthy fan club memberships kinda a tough sell to a bunch of communist supporters that all shop at Walmart?


     

You do know that if Walmart existed in 1955 McCarthy would have all of thier employees investigated for helping the Red Chinese...Right?

He'd probably have files on all you traitors that shop there too!


----------



## PoliticalChic

HUGGY said:


> Aren't McCarthy fan club memberships kinda a tough sell to a bunch of communist supporters that all shop at Walmart?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You do know that if Walmart existed in 1955 McCarthy would have all of thier employees investigated for helping the Red Chinese...Right?
> 
> He'd probably have files on all you traitors that shop there too!



Well, Hugs, now that you mention Wal-Mart, here's a little remedial for you:


1.  Older socialists dreamed of a world in which all classes would share in the fruits of the world. Yet when a permutation of this emerges, it is resented if it represents capitalism. An institution beyond the imaginings of socialists of old: Wal-Mart. Within Wal-Mart we see a cornucopia of goods designed to improve human well-being, at prices that make them affordable for all. Millions of jobs are created, and prosperity is spread throughout areas where it was sorely needed. An entity owned by share-holders, people of mostly moderate incomes who have invested their savings, worker-capitalists.

[Wal-Mart owns 8,300 stores, of which 4,000 are in 44 different countries. Its 2010 revenues are expected to top $500 billion. Putting Wal-Mart's revenues in perspective, they exceed the 2009 GDP of all but 18 of the world's 181 countries. Why is Wal-Mart so successful? Millions of people voluntarily enter their stores and part with their money in exchange for Wal-Mart's products and services. In order for that to happen, Wal-Mart and millions of other profit-motivated businesses must please people.
http://townhall.com/columnists/WalterEWilliams/2010/06/16/economic_myths,_fallacies_and_stupidity]

https://www.hillsdale.edu/news/imprimis/archive/issue.asp?year=2007&month=05



2.  Why is Wal-Mart so successful? *Millions of people voluntarily enter their stores and part with their money in exchange for Wal-Mart's products and services. In order for that to happen, Wal-Mart and millions of other profit-motivated businesses must please people.*Compare our level of satisfaction with the services of those "in it just for the money and profits" to those in it to serve the public as opposed to earning profits. A major non-profit service provider is the public education establishment that delivers primary and secondary education at nearly a trillion-dollar annual cost. Public education is a major source of complaints about poor services that in many cases constitute nothing less than gross fraud.

If Wal-Mart, or any of the millions of producers who are in it for money and profits, were to deliver the same low-quality services, they would be out of business, but not public schools. Why? People who produce public education get their pay, pay raises and perks whether customers are satisfied or not. They are not motivated by profits and therefore under considerably less pressure to please customers. They use government to take customer money, in the form of taxes. 

The U. S. Postal Service, state motor vehicle departments and other* government agencies also have the taxing power of government to get money and therefore are less diligent about pleasing customers. *You can bet the rent money that if Wal-Mart and other businesses had the power to take our money by force, they would be less interested and willing to please us. 

The big difference between entities that serve us well and those who do not lies in what motivates them. Wal-Mart and millions of other businesses are profit-motivated whereas government schools, USPS and state motor vehicle departments are not.

In the market, when a firm fails to please its customers and fails to earn a profit, it goes bankrupt, making those resources available to another that might do better. That's unless government steps in to bail it out. Bailouts send the message to continue doing a poor job of pleasing customers and husbanding resources. Government-owned nonprofit entities are immune to the ruthless market discipline of being forced to please customers. The same can be said of businesses that receive government subsidies. 

The ruthlessness of the market discipline, which forces firms to please customers and thereby earn profits, goes a long way toward explaining hostility toward free market capitalism.
Townhall.com::Home::About US


----------



## HUGGY

PoliticalChic said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> Aren't McCarthy fan club memberships kinda a tough sell to a bunch of communist supporters that all shop at Walmart?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You do know that if Walmart existed in 1955 McCarthy would have all of thier employees investigated for helping the Red Chinese...Right?
> 
> He'd probably have files on all you traitors that shop there too!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, Hugs, now that you mention Wal-Mart, here's a little remedial for you:
> 
> 
> 1.  Older socialists dreamed of a world in which all classes would share in the fruits of the world. Yet when a permutation of this emerges, it is resented if it represents capitalism. An institution beyond the imaginings of socialists of old: Wal-Mart. Within Wal-Mart we see a cornucopia of goods designed to improve human well-being, at prices that make them affordable for all. Millions of jobs are created, and prosperity is spread throughout areas where it was sorely needed. An entity owned by share-holders, people of mostly moderate incomes who have invested their savings, worker-capitalists.
> 
> [Wal-Mart owns 8,300 stores, of which 4,000 are in 44 different countries. Its 2010 revenues are expected to top $500 billion. Putting Wal-Mart's revenues in perspective, they exceed the 2009 GDP of all but 18 of the world's 181 countries. Why is Wal-Mart so successful? Millions of people voluntarily enter their stores and part with their money in exchange for Wal-Mart's products and services. In order for that to happen, Wal-Mart and millions of other profit-motivated businesses must please people.
> http://townhall.com/columnists/WalterEWilliams/2010/06/16/economic_myths,_fallacies_and_stupidity]
> 
> https://www.hillsdale.edu/news/imprimis/archive/issue.asp?year=2007&month=05
> 
> 
> 
> 2.  Why is Wal-Mart so successful? *Millions of people voluntarily enter their stores and part with their money in exchange for Wal-Mart's products and services. In order for that to happen, Wal-Mart and millions of other profit-motivated businesses must please people.*Compare our level of satisfaction with the services of those "in it just for the money and profits" to those in it to serve the public as opposed to earning profits. A major non-profit service provider is the public education establishment that delivers primary and secondary education at nearly a trillion-dollar annual cost. Public education is a major source of complaints about poor services that in many cases constitute nothing less than gross fraud.
> 
> If Wal-Mart, or any of the millions of producers who are in it for money and profits, were to deliver the same low-quality services, they would be out of business, but not public schools. Why? People who produce public education get their pay, pay raises and perks whether customers are satisfied or not. They are not motivated by profits and therefore under considerably less pressure to please customers. They use government to take customer money, in the form of taxes.
> 
> The U. S. Postal Service, state motor vehicle departments and other* government agencies also have the taxing power of government to get money and therefore are less diligent about pleasing customers. *You can bet the rent money that if Wal-Mart and other businesses had the power to take our money by force, they would be less interested and willing to please us.
> 
> The big difference between entities that serve us well and those who do not lies in what motivates them. Wal-Mart and millions of other businesses are profit-motivated whereas government schools, USPS and state motor vehicle departments are not.
> 
> In the market, when a firm fails to please its customers and fails to earn a profit, it goes bankrupt, making those resources available to another that might do better. That's unless government steps in to bail it out. Bailouts send the message to continue doing a poor job of pleasing customers and husbanding resources. Government-owned nonprofit entities are immune to the ruthless market discipline of being forced to please customers. The same can be said of businesses that receive government subsidies.
> 
> The ruthlessness of the market discipline, which forces firms to please customers and thereby earn profits, goes a long way toward explaining hostility toward free market capitalism.
> Townhall.com::Home::About US
Click to expand...


How fortunate for Communist Red China!


----------



## PoliticalChic

HUGGY said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> Aren't McCarthy fan club memberships kinda a tough sell to a bunch of communist supporters that all shop at Walmart?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You do know that if Walmart existed in 1955 McCarthy would have all of thier employees investigated for helping the Red Chinese...Right?
> 
> He'd probably have files on all you traitors that shop there too!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, Hugs, now that you mention Wal-Mart, here's a little remedial for you:
> 
> 
> 1.  Older socialists dreamed of a world in which all classes would share in the fruits of the world. Yet when a permutation of this emerges, it is resented if it represents capitalism. An institution beyond the imaginings of socialists of old: Wal-Mart. Within Wal-Mart we see a cornucopia of goods designed to improve human well-being, at prices that make them affordable for all. Millions of jobs are created, and prosperity is spread throughout areas where it was sorely needed. An entity owned by share-holders, people of mostly moderate incomes who have invested their savings, worker-capitalists.
> 
> [Wal-Mart owns 8,300 stores, of which 4,000 are in 44 different countries. Its 2010 revenues are expected to top $500 billion. Putting Wal-Mart's revenues in perspective, they exceed the 2009 GDP of all but 18 of the world's 181 countries. Why is Wal-Mart so successful? Millions of people voluntarily enter their stores and part with their money in exchange for Wal-Mart's products and services. In order for that to happen, Wal-Mart and millions of other profit-motivated businesses must please people.
> http://townhall.com/columnists/WalterEWilliams/2010/06/16/economic_myths,_fallacies_and_stupidity]
> 
> https://www.hillsdale.edu/news/imprimis/archive/issue.asp?year=2007&month=05
> 
> 
> 
> 2.  Why is Wal-Mart so successful? *Millions of people voluntarily enter their stores and part with their money in exchange for Wal-Mart's products and services. In order for that to happen, Wal-Mart and millions of other profit-motivated businesses must please people.*Compare our level of satisfaction with the services of those "in it just for the money and profits" to those in it to serve the public as opposed to earning profits. A major non-profit service provider is the public education establishment that delivers primary and secondary education at nearly a trillion-dollar annual cost. Public education is a major source of complaints about poor services that in many cases constitute nothing less than gross fraud.
> 
> If Wal-Mart, or any of the millions of producers who are in it for money and profits, were to deliver the same low-quality services, they would be out of business, but not public schools. Why? People who produce public education get their pay, pay raises and perks whether customers are satisfied or not. They are not motivated by profits and therefore under considerably less pressure to please customers. They use government to take customer money, in the form of taxes.
> 
> The U. S. Postal Service, state motor vehicle departments and other* government agencies also have the taxing power of government to get money and therefore are less diligent about pleasing customers. *You can bet the rent money that if Wal-Mart and other businesses had the power to take our money by force, they would be less interested and willing to please us.
> 
> The big difference between entities that serve us well and those who do not lies in what motivates them. Wal-Mart and millions of other businesses are profit-motivated whereas government schools, USPS and state motor vehicle departments are not.
> 
> In the market, when a firm fails to please its customers and fails to earn a profit, it goes bankrupt, making those resources available to another that might do better. That's unless government steps in to bail it out. Bailouts send the message to continue doing a poor job of pleasing customers and husbanding resources. Government-owned nonprofit entities are immune to the ruthless market discipline of being forced to please customers. The same can be said of businesses that receive government subsidies.
> 
> The ruthlessness of the market discipline, which forces firms to please customers and thereby earn profits, goes a long way toward explaining hostility toward free market capitalism.
> Townhall.com::Home::About US
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How fortunate for Communist Red China!
Click to expand...


No, how fortunate for the multitudes of Americans who work there and who shop there.


----------



## Trajan

in all fairness to woodrow wilson,  lenin hated him with a passion. Wilson did denounced the communist party, harshly and with verve.

 Lenin with the ready help of American converts and communists here,laid thre ground work at the 1920 Comintern meeting, he planned and carried out his greatest achievement here in the us by using the Communist labor Party and the Communist Party of America which became in 1929 the CPUSA.  They were wholly owned creatures of Lenin,  period. They thrived in the 20 and 30's. 

The "red scare" started with Wilson his AG Alexander Palmer and a Texas democratic congressman  named Martin Dies.

For those interested in just how far and wide the appeal was, 3 names you can google at will; William C Bulllitt, Pau H.l Douglas and Corliss Lamont. have at it.


----------



## PoliticalChic

Trajan said:


> in all fairness to woodrow wilson,  lenin hated him with a passion. Wilson did denounced the communist party, harshly and with verve.
> 
> Lenin with the ready help of American converts and communists here,laid thre ground work at the 1920 Comintern meeting, he planned and carried out his greatest achievement here in the us by using the Communist labor Party and the Communist Party of America which became in 1929 the CPUSA.  They were wholly owned creators of Lenin, Wilson period. They thrived in the 20 and 30's.
> 
> The "red scare" started with Wilson his AG Alexander Palmer and a Texas democratic congressman  named Martin Dies.
> 
> For those interested in just how far and wide the appeal was, 3 names you can google at will; William C Bulllitt, Pau H.l Douglas and Corliss Lamont. have at it.



Hey, Tra...

"He welcomed the Russian Revolution, and agreed with the progressive animus toward corrupt and over mighty party bosses and autocratic monarchists which was readily transferred to an overbearing Kaiser and a hegemonic war machine, notes historian Morton Keller.

 Wilsons Fourteen Points, his message of good luck to the republic of labor unions in Russia . . . his warning to the Allied powers that their treatment of Bolshevik Russia would be the acid test of their good will . . . intelligence and unselfish sympathy: these moves were immensely impressive to many leftists and progressives.

 Trotsky sensed that the American president shared the Bolsheviks hatred of European imperialism; when Trotsky coined the now famous concept of the fellow traveler, he was referring to Wilson."
1919: Betrayal and the Birth of Modern Liberalism by Fred Siegel, City Journal 22 November 2009


----------



## JakeStarkey

Imperialism of "lesser" races and peoples were a good thing, and to despise such exploitation was a communist leaning.  Are you moronic, PC, so you will follow your 'leader' wherever he goes despite all the crap that you are spewing?

You merely are a poster girl for the fascist reactionary right now.  Streicher would have been proud of you.


----------



## Father Time

I'm curious why is anyone participating in this thread anymore? After skimming it just appears to consist of

"He was a witch hunter, you're dumb if you believe other wise"
"No he was a hero and you're dumb if you believe other wise"


----------



## Gadawg73

CrusaderFrank said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> See what I mean about you sucking and not having a clue?
> 
> McCarthy was focused on Soviet infiltration at US State and had NOTHING TO DO WITH ZERO MOSTEL or Hollywood Producers.
> 
> You got duped, which happens sometimes so there's no shame in it.  But after being told repeatedly you got duped and never bothering to take another look, well, shame on you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are absolutely right on the Hollywood witch hunt as that was before the McCarthy hearings and I stand corrected and I was totally wrong on that point.
> But you do agree that was also a witch hunt, don't you?
> How many officers in the Army did McCarthy flush out and how many did he accuse that were innocent? You claim he was focused on infiltration at State and that it is not so. Voice of America and others also.
> But again, you corrected me on the Hollywood witch hunts as he was not a part of that but I saw no effort on his part to clear all of the falsely accused with his hearings. His hearings compounded the red scare hysteria as Truman and Eisenhower stated.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> First, I apologize for my tone.  My frustration is that I'm trying to tell people the Earth is round and so few hear it and just want to keep telling me they learned it was flat and that all they know.
> 
> I'm glad you saw part of the error regarding the Hollywood Blacklisting, but the far larger problem is how correct McCarthy was about Communist infiltration at State and it mattered because they steered US policy toward Stalin and Mao.
> 
> There was no McCarthy WITCH HUNT!!!!  It never happened!
> 
> He asked Congress to investigate Communist Inflirtration at State and he was treated like a War Criminal for exposing it.
> 
> The "Red Scare" started because the ChioComs started the Korean War 4 months after McCarthy asked these questions for the first time.  That's why Korea is the "Forgotten War"
> 
> I promise I'll try not to be a dick, but please, please, please try ti understand that the information is so very different from what we first were told.
Click to expand...


Respect you Frank but there was a witch hunt.
You owe me no apologies. No worries.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Frank, the manner in which McCarthy made his accusations was completely unAmerican.  Many innocent people were hurt (that has been proved).  His own party pulled him down (none of you have addressed that).  PC and her defenders here have made absolutely no case other than they are political wannabee hacks of the far right.  That's fair, but it is also fair to point it out.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

JakeStarkey said:


> Frank, the manner in which McCarthy made his accusations was completely unAmerican.  Many innocent people were hurt (that has been proved).  His own party pulled him down (none of you have addressed that).  PC and her defenders here have made absolutely no case other than they are political wannabee hacks of the far right.  That's fair, but it is also fair to point it out.



Had you bothered to read the book you would know that he made a speech in Wheeling WV in Feb 1950 and said that he was informed there were 57 card carrying Communists At State, none of whom he named because he wanted Congress to open an investigation into the matter and it would not be fair to the accused had he named them.

Only when Tydings began their investigation of McCarthy, and not Communist infiltration of State, did he "Name names" and all the names he named were of State Dept workers in some way shape of fashion working for or with the Communists or in association with people who were.

Stay ignorant, Jake, it's your best feature


----------



## Gadawg73

HUGGY said:


> Aren't McCarthy fan club memberships kinda a tough sell to a bunch of communist supporters that all shop at Walmart?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You do know that if Walmart existed in 1955 McCarthy would have all of thier employees investigated for helping the Red Chinese...Right?
> 
> He'd probably have files on all you traitors that shop there too!



You are ignorant Huggy.
Everyone knows Sam Walton was a communist spy in the State Department.
Or was that Woman's Wear Department?


----------



## JakeStarkey

CrusaderFrank said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Frank, the manner in which McCarthy made his accusations was completely unAmerican.  Many innocent people were hurt (that has been proved).  His own party pulled him down (none of you have addressed that).  PC and her defenders here have made absolutely no case other than they are political wannabee hacks of the far right.  That's fair, but it is also fair to point it out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Had you bothered to read the book you would know that he made a speech in Wheeling WV in Feb 1950 and said that he was informed there were 57 card carrying Communists At State, none of whom he named because he wanted Congress to open an investigation into the matter and it would not be fair to the accused had he named them.
> 
> Only when Tydings began their investigation of McCarthy, and not Communist infiltration of State, did he "Name names" and all the names he named were of State Dept workers in some way shape of fashion working for or with the Communists or in association with people who were.
> 
> Stay ignorant, Jake, it's your best feature
Click to expand...


Red herring, CF, Red herring.  The rehabilitation of McCarthy though a hack work has failed, PC has failed, and you support the failure.

Check all of the reviews of the works, and many of them suggest the use of works and notes are substandard.  So true.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

JakeStarkey said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Frank, the manner in which McCarthy made his accusations was completely unAmerican.  Many innocent people were hurt (that has been proved).  His own party pulled him down (none of you have addressed that).  PC and her defenders here have made absolutely no case other than they are political wannabee hacks of the far right.  That's fair, but it is also fair to point it out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Had you bothered to read the book you would know that he made a speech in Wheeling WV in Feb 1950 and said that he was informed there were 57 card carrying Communists At State, none of whom he named because he wanted Congress to open an investigation into the matter and it would not be fair to the accused had he named them.
> 
> Only when Tydings began their investigation of McCarthy, and not Communist infiltration of State, did he "Name names" and all the names he named were of State Dept workers in some way shape of fashion working for or with the Communists or in association with people who were.
> 
> Stay ignorant, Jake, it's your best feature
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Red herring, CF, Red herring.  The rehabilitation of McCarthy though a hack work has failed, PC has failed, and you support the failure.
> 
> Check all of the reviews of the works, and many of them suggest the use of works and notes are substandard.  So true.
Click to expand...


Jake, you're a Political Flat Earther.

Sure, Jake, you didn't read the book but the reviews say the book is "substandard" LOL

How is quoting from FBI files "Substandard?

LOL


----------



## Gadawg73

CrusaderFrank said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Frank, the manner in which McCarthy made his accusations was completely unAmerican.  Many innocent people were hurt (that has been proved).  His own party pulled him down (none of you have addressed that).  PC and her defenders here have made absolutely no case other than they are political wannabee hacks of the far right.  That's fair, but it is also fair to point it out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Had you bothered to read the book you would know that he made a speech in Wheeling WV in Feb 1950 and said that he was informed there were 57 card carrying Communists At State, none of whom he named because he wanted Congress to open an investigation into the matter and it would not be fair to the accused had he named them.
> 
> Only when Tydings began their investigation of McCarthy, and not Communist infiltration of State, did he "Name names" and all the names he named were of State Dept workers in some way shape of fashion working for or with the Communists or in association with people who were.
> 
> Stay ignorant, Jake, it's your best feature
Click to expand...


"it would not be fair to the accused had he named them"
Come on Frank, you know that is total BS. There were no names on any list. And if there was any evidence then they would have announced it immediately for the PR he always sought.
"57 card carrying communists"
Who issued those cards Frank and did they get a decoder ring also?
Communists were in our government long before McCarthy came along and all he did was ruin many a stealth policy dating back to the teens. 
Anyone with any knowledge of espionage and intelligence knows you attempt to TURN the spies first and you do that clandestinely  and never hold hearings and news conferences announcing what is going on. 
But that does not sell books for the naive and gullible. 
No telling how many of our suits in the field were exposed by McCarthy and the fools that followed him. If you could have asked any intelligence agent of any form, shape or fashion from that era if they believe that McCarthy and his ways helped or ruined their work the answer would be in the negative. Intelligence wants NO PR, especially hearings on the Hill.


----------



## JakeStarkey

I never said I did not read the book.  I said the footnotes do not support many of the contortions of the writer.  Rochelle asked for examples.  I referred him to the other reviews, and he believed that was not sufficient.  Who cares what Mark thinks.  He is unimportant other than as a researcher he offered some bogus conclusions.  Read all of the reviews, Frank, and read Gadawag above.  PC lost this OP on the first page.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Gadawg73 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Frank, the manner in which McCarthy made his accusations was completely unAmerican.  Many innocent people were hurt (that has been proved).  His own party pulled him down (none of you have addressed that).  PC and her defenders here have made absolutely no case other than they are political wannabee hacks of the far right.  That's fair, but it is also fair to point it out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Had you bothered to read the book you would know that he made a speech in Wheeling WV in Feb 1950 and said that he was informed there were 57 card carrying Communists At State, none of whom he named because he wanted Congress to open an investigation into the matter and it would not be fair to the accused had he named them.
> 
> Only when Tydings began their investigation of McCarthy, and not Communist infiltration of State, did he "Name names" and all the names he named were of State Dept workers in some way shape of fashion working for or with the Communists or in association with people who were.
> 
> Stay ignorant, Jake, it's your best feature
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "it would not be fair to the accused had he named them"
> Come on Frank, you know that is total BS. There were no names on any list. And if there was any evidence then they would have announced it immediately for the PR he always sought.
> "57 card carrying communists"
> Who issued those cards Frank and did they get a decoder ring also?
> Communists were in our government long before McCarthy came along and all he did was ruin many a stealth policy dating back to the teens.
> Anyone with any knowledge of espionage and intelligence knows you attempt to TURN the spies first and you do that clandestinely  and never hold hearings and news conferences announcing what is going on.
> But that does not sell books for the naive and gullible.
> No telling how many of our suits in the field were exposed by McCarthy and the fools that followed him. If you could have asked any intelligence agent of any form, shape or fashion from that era if they believe that McCarthy and his ways helped or ruined their work the answer would be in the negative. Intelligence wants NO PR, especially hearings on the Hill.
Click to expand...


See, my main complaint about you is that you continue to read from a playbook that is 60 years old and was total fiction when it was written. 

"Blacklisted" and other books have completely destroyed, with FBI files and Soviet cables, the entire notion of what we grew up learning about McCarthy.

When McCarthy made his speech in Wheeling in Feb 1950, Truman had already decided to protect Communist at State by not allowing ANY Congressional investigation and the Executive branch stopped rooting out the Comrades.

McCarthy had a list supplied to him by State with names of Card Carrying communists on it. Joe was a lawyer and knew he could not in good conscience release the names on the list that a whistleblower at State had provided him without the benefit of independent investigation.

That was all he was asking for was for Congress to be allowed to investigate the goings-on at State, that were now being protected by the Truman Administration!

That was it!

He asked for Congress to look into possible Communist infiltration at State!

You keep parroting crap back at me without any facts, just lies that you were taught


----------



## CrusaderFrank

JakeStarkey said:


> I never said I did not read the book.  I said the footnotes do not support many of the contortions of the writer.  Rochelle asked for examples.  I referred him to the other reviews, and he believed that was not sufficient.  Who cares what Mark thinks.  He is unimportant other than as a researcher he offered some bogus conclusions.  Read all of the reviews, Frank, and read Gadawag above.  PC lost this OP on the first page.



Jake, you didn't read the book and you still haven't posted a single footnote.

Please post one of these "reviews" and I will gladly dissent it like it was something that got on the wrong side of Hannibal Lecter


----------



## Old Rocks

American Rhetoric: McCarthy-Welch Exchange During the Army-McCarthy Hearings

Mr. Welch: You've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?


----------



## Gadawg73

CrusaderFrank said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Had you bothered to read the book you would know that he made a speech in Wheeling WV in Feb 1950 and said that he was informed there were 57 card carrying Communists At State, none of whom he named because he wanted Congress to open an investigation into the matter and it would not be fair to the accused had he named them.
> 
> Only when Tydings began their investigation of McCarthy, and not Communist infiltration of State, did he "Name names" and all the names he named were of State Dept workers in some way shape of fashion working for or with the Communists or in association with people who were.
> 
> Stay ignorant, Jake, it's your best feature
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "it would not be fair to the accused had he named them"
> Come on Frank, you know that is total BS. There were no names on any list. And if there was any evidence then they would have announced it immediately for the PR he always sought.
> "57 card carrying communists"
> Who issued those cards Frank and did they get a decoder ring also?
> Communists were in our government long before McCarthy came along and all he did was ruin many a stealth policy dating back to the teens.
> Anyone with any knowledge of espionage and intelligence knows you attempt to TURN the spies first and you do that clandestinely  and never hold hearings and news conferences announcing what is going on.
> But that does not sell books for the naive and gullible.
> No telling how many of our suits in the field were exposed by McCarthy and the fools that followed him. If you could have asked any intelligence agent of any form, shape or fashion from that era if they believe that McCarthy and his ways helped or ruined their work the answer would be in the negative. Intelligence wants NO PR, especially hearings on the Hill.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> See, my main complaint about you is that you continue to read from a playbook that is 60 years old and was total fiction when it was written.
> 
> "Blacklisted" and other books have completely destroyed, with FBI files and Soviet cables, the entire notion of what we grew up learning about McCarthy.
> 
> When McCarthy made his speech in Wheeling in Feb 1950, Truman had already decided to protect Communist at State by not allowing ANY Congressional investigation and the Executive branch stopped rooting out the Comrades.
> 
> McCarthy had a list supplied to him by State with names of Card Carrying communists on it. Joe was a lawyer and knew he could not in good conscience release the names on the list that a whistleblower at State had provided him without the benefit of independent investigation.
> 
> That was all he was asking for was for Congress to be allowed to investigate the goings-on at State, that were now being protected by the Truman Administration!
> 
> That was it!
> 
> He asked for Congress to look into possible Communist infiltration at State!
> 
> You keep parroting crap back at me without any facts, just lies that you were taught
Click to expand...


Frank, my facts come from the agents in the field.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Gadawg73 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Frank, the manner in which McCarthy made his accusations was completely unAmerican.  Many innocent people were hurt (that has been proved).  His own party pulled him down (none of you have addressed that).  PC and her defenders here have made absolutely no case other than they are political wannabee hacks of the far right.  That's fair, but it is also fair to point it out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Had you bothered to read the book you would know that he made a speech in Wheeling WV in Feb 1950 and said that he was informed there were 57 card carrying Communists At State, none of whom he named because he wanted Congress to open an investigation into the matter and it would not be fair to the accused had he named them.
> 
> Only when Tydings began their investigation of McCarthy, and not Communist infiltration of State, did he "Name names" and all the names he named were of State Dept workers in some way shape of fashion working for or with the Communists or in association with people who were.
> 
> Stay ignorant, Jake, it's your best feature
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "it would not be fair to the accused had he named them"
> Come on Frank, you know that is total BS. There were no names on any list. And if there was any evidence then they would have announced it immediately for the PR he always sought.
> "57 card carrying communists"
> Who issued those cards Frank and did they get a decoder ring also?
> Communists were in our government long before McCarthy came along and all he did was ruin many a stealth policy dating back to the teens.
> Anyone with any knowledge of espionage and intelligence knows you attempt to TURN the spies first and you do that clandestinely  and never hold hearings and news conferences announcing what is going on.
> But that does not sell books for the naive and gullible.
> No telling how many of our suits in the field were exposed by McCarthy and the fools that followed him. If you could have asked any intelligence agent of any form, shape or fashion from that era if they believe that McCarthy and his ways helped or ruined their work the answer would be in the negative. Intelligence wants NO PR, especially hearings on the Hill.
Click to expand...


My God!  You got it all wrong!  I mean everything!

You ate up the Progressive storyline on McCarthy and never even cracked open any book on it to educate yourself!

What a fool!

What a tool!

I'll repeat it slowly since you missed it the first 60 times i posted it here.

Joe McCarthy made a speech in Wheeling WV in Feb 1950 and in it he said he received a list from US State Department with the name of 57 Card Carrying Communitst who were employed there.  President Truman had continued FDR's "Help a Comrade" policy and had FORBADE the Senate from investigating these allegations.

All McCarthy wanted was for the Senate to open an investigation into how is was possible for the State Department to have known Card Carrying Communists working there

Don't even bother replying unless you can demonstrate that you've educated yourself on this.

EVERYTHING you were taught about McCarthy was WRONG

EVERYTHING!

Stop being Jake Starkey for Gods Sake


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Old Rocks said:


> American Rhetoric: McCarthy-Welch Exchange During the Army-McCarthy Hearings
> 
> Mr. Welch: You've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?



Yawn.

Joe McCarthy: American Patriot and Hero


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Gadawg73 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> "it would not be fair to the accused had he named them"
> Come on Frank, you know that is total BS. There were no names on any list. And if there was any evidence then they would have announced it immediately for the PR he always sought.
> "57 card carrying communists"
> Who issued those cards Frank and did they get a decoder ring also?
> Communists were in our government long before McCarthy came along and all he did was ruin many a stealth policy dating back to the teens.
> Anyone with any knowledge of espionage and intelligence knows you attempt to TURN the spies first and you do that clandestinely  and never hold hearings and news conferences announcing what is going on.
> But that does not sell books for the naive and gullible.
> No telling how many of our suits in the field were exposed by McCarthy and the fools that followed him. If you could have asked any intelligence agent of any form, shape or fashion from that era if they believe that McCarthy and his ways helped or ruined their work the answer would be in the negative. Intelligence wants NO PR, especially hearings on the Hill.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See, my main complaint about you is that you continue to read from a playbook that is 60 years old and was total fiction when it was written.
> 
> "Blacklisted" and other books have completely destroyed, with FBI files and Soviet cables, the entire notion of what we grew up learning about McCarthy.
> 
> When McCarthy made his speech in Wheeling in Feb 1950, Truman had already decided to protect Communist at State by not allowing ANY Congressional investigation and the Executive branch stopped rooting out the Comrades.
> 
> McCarthy had a list supplied to him by State with names of Card Carrying communists on it. Joe was a lawyer and knew he could not in good conscience release the names on the list that a whistleblower at State had provided him without the benefit of independent investigation.
> 
> That was all he was asking for was for Congress to be allowed to investigate the goings-on at State, that were now being protected by the Truman Administration!
> 
> That was it!
> 
> He asked for Congress to look into possible Communist infiltration at State!
> 
> You keep parroting crap back at me without any facts, just lies that you were taught
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Frank, my facts come from the agents in the field.
Click to expand...


You're full of crap and ignorant to boot


----------



## CrusaderFrank

All of the copies of the newspaper from Wheeling WV from Feb 1950 to April 1950 have been removed from the National Archives along with the "Klaus Memo" which has also disappeared from the National Archives.


----------



## Gadawg73

CrusaderFrank said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> See, my main complaint about you is that you continue to read from a playbook that is 60 years old and was total fiction when it was written.
> 
> "Blacklisted" and other books have completely destroyed, with FBI files and Soviet cables, the entire notion of what we grew up learning about McCarthy.
> 
> When McCarthy made his speech in Wheeling in Feb 1950, Truman had already decided to protect Communist at State by not allowing ANY Congressional investigation and the Executive branch stopped rooting out the Comrades.
> 
> McCarthy had a list supplied to him by State with names of Card Carrying communists on it. Joe was a lawyer and knew he could not in good conscience release the names on the list that a whistleblower at State had provided him without the benefit of independent investigation.
> 
> That was all he was asking for was for Congress to be allowed to investigate the goings-on at State, that were now being protected by the Truman Administration!
> 
> That was it!
> 
> He asked for Congress to look into possible Communist infiltration at State!
> 
> You keep parroting crap back at me without any facts, just lies that you were taught
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Frank, my facts come from the agents in the field.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're full of crap and ignorant to boot
Click to expand...


Want to wager 10K Frank? One of my old partners in the early 80s was a former FBI agent from that era. 
You read books, I am in the intelligence business for 32 years Frank. I own a fully top tier licensed detective agency for 32 years.
NO intelligence organization wants information spread around in Washington in front of cameras.
That is just common sense Frank. Do we do that now? Have hearings about the intelligence we conduct on TV?
Only a naive gullible book buying ideologue believes that.
That would be you. Here's your sign.


----------



## Gadawg73

CrusaderFrank said:


> All of the copies of the newspaper from Wheeling WV from Feb 1950 to April 1950 have been removed from the National Archives along with the "Klaus Memo" which has also disappeared from the National Archives.



Don't you know Frank?
Elvis stole them.


----------



## HUGGY

CrusaderFrank said:


> All of the copies of the newspaper from Wheeling WV from Feb 1950 to April 1950 have been removed from the National Archives along with the "Klaus Memo" which has also disappeared from the National Archives.



Man O Man I bet that person has racked up some hella late fees!!!!


----------



## editec

Tailgunner Joe was drunken, lying, fear mongering  poltical scum.

Pretty simple really.

The fact that he made it so far is an indictment of the cowardess of BOTH parties.


----------



## PoliticalChic

editec said:


> Tailgunner Joe was drunken, lying, fear mongering  poltical scum.
> 
> Pretty simple really.
> 
> The fact that he made it so far is an indictment of the cowardess of BOTH parties.



So, where would he stand relative to the mass-murder supporters that he exposed?


----------



## Gadawg73

PoliticalChic said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tailgunner Joe was drunken, lying, fear mongering  poltical scum.
> 
> Pretty simple really.
> 
> The fact that he made it so far is an indictment of the cowardess of BOTH parties.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, where would he stand relative to the mass-murder supporters that he exposed?
Click to expand...



Chic bases her entire argument on McCarthy exposed Lenin, Marx, Mao, Stalin, and Mussolini as mass murderers.

Well done Chic. No one anywhere ever knew that any of those ever killed masses.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Gadawg73 said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tailgunner Joe was drunken, lying, fear mongering  poltical scum.
> 
> Pretty simple really.
> 
> The fact that he made it so far is an indictment of the cowardess of BOTH parties.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, where would he stand relative to the mass-murder supporters that he exposed?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Chic bases her entire argument on McCarthy exposed Lenin, Marx, Mao, Stalin, and Mussolini as mass murderers.
> 
> Well done Chic. No one anywhere ever knew that any of those ever killed masses.
Click to expand...


I was wondering whatever because of the poster GirlForBush28 and now I see she's got a new screen name

WB GFB28!


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Gadawg73 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Frank, my facts come from the agents in the field.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're full of crap and ignorant to boot
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Want to wager 10K Frank? One of my old partners in the early 80s was a former FBI agent from that era.
> You read books, I am in the intelligence business for 32 years Frank. I own a fully top tier licensed detective agency for 32 years.
> NO intelligence organization wants information spread around in Washington in front of cameras.
> That is just common sense Frank. Do we do that now? Have hearings about the intelligence we conduct on TV?
> Only a naive gullible book buying ideologue believes that.
> That would be you. Here's your sign.
Click to expand...


I don't give a fuck about your friends or whatever "Street creds" you're holding out, the fact remains you don't have a single fucking fact correct about what actually happened with McCarthy. 

The only part you got right was his name was Joe McCarthy, everything else you've been a patsy of a 65-year long Progressive disinformation campaign. 

You still have no idea what McCarthy said or what he hoped to accomplish or why he made his Wheeling Speech or went before the Senate.  Your ignorance is disgraceful.

Since Progressives lost their media monopoly, the facts have come out that the people McCarthy wanted the Senate to investigate have been confirmed as genuine Communist Spies by Moscow.  You have no response and no answer to that other than parroting the crap and nonsense you were spoon-fed your entire life.

Once again: a patriot at State handed McCarthy a list of Genuine Card Carrying Communist at State and McCarthy made a speech that he had a list but would not mention any names! 

Your ignorance is painful.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Gadawg73 said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tailgunner Joe was drunken, lying, fear mongering  poltical scum.
> 
> Pretty simple really.
> 
> The fact that he made it so far is an indictment of the cowardess of BOTH parties.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, where would he stand relative to the mass-murder supporters that he exposed?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Chic bases her entire argument on McCarthy exposed Lenin, Marx, Mao, Stalin, and Mussolini as mass murderers.
> 
> Well done Chic. No one anywhere ever knew that any of those ever killed masses.
Click to expand...


What the fuck are you babbling about?


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Gadawg73 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> All of the copies of the newspaper from Wheeling WV from Feb 1950 to April 1950 have been removed from the National Archives along with the "Klaus Memo" which has also disappeared from the National Archives.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't you know Frank?
> Elvis stole them.
Click to expand...


Why are they missing from the National Archives, GFB28?

Maybe you and your "Spy friends" can look into it?


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Gadawg73 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> "it would not be fair to the accused had he named them"
> Come on Frank, you know that is total BS. There were no names on any list. And if there was any evidence then they would have announced it immediately for the PR he always sought.
> "57 card carrying communists"
> Who issued those cards Frank and did they get a decoder ring also?
> Communists were in our government long before McCarthy came along and all he did was ruin many a stealth policy dating back to the teens.
> Anyone with any knowledge of espionage and intelligence knows you attempt to TURN the spies first and you do that clandestinely  and never hold hearings and news conferences announcing what is going on.
> But that does not sell books for the naive and gullible.
> No telling how many of our suits in the field were exposed by McCarthy and the fools that followed him. If you could have asked any intelligence agent of any form, shape or fashion from that era if they believe that McCarthy and his ways helped or ruined their work the answer would be in the negative. Intelligence wants NO PR, especially hearings on the Hill.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See, my main complaint about you is that you continue to read from a playbook that is 60 years old and was total fiction when it was written.
> 
> "Blacklisted" and other books have completely destroyed, with FBI files and Soviet cables, the entire notion of what we grew up learning about McCarthy.
> 
> When McCarthy made his speech in Wheeling in Feb 1950, Truman had already decided to protect Communist at State by not allowing ANY Congressional investigation and the Executive branch stopped rooting out the Comrades.
> 
> McCarthy had a list supplied to him by State with names of Card Carrying communists on it. Joe was a lawyer and knew he could not in good conscience release the names on the list that a whistleblower at State had provided him without the benefit of independent investigation.
> 
> That was all he was asking for was for Congress to be allowed to investigate the goings-on at State, that were now being protected by the Truman Administration!
> 
> That was it!
> 
> He asked for Congress to look into possible Communist infiltration at State!
> 
> You keep parroting crap back at me without any facts, just lies that you were taught
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Frank, my facts come from the agents in the field.
Click to expand...


GFB28, ask your "Agents in the field" to see if they can track down who removed the Klaus Memo from the National Archives.

Oh, right, you don't even know what the Klaus memo was.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Here's what's missing

"One of the mysteriously "disappearing" documents was issued in the summer of 1946 by State Department official Samuel Klaus. He fingered Soviet agents and alleged Communist Party members &#8212; one of them Alger Hiss &#8212; in the Department. He also cited "suspects" and "sympathizers."

Blacklisted by History: The Untold Story of Senator Joe McCarthy and his Fight Against America's Enemies

Maybe some "spy friends" can see who removed it from the National Archives, because we know McCarthy allegation of Communist penetration of US State were like unfounded or dumbfounded or something like that, right GFB28?


----------



## Gadawg73

CrusaderFrank said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> You're full of crap and ignorant to boot
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Want to wager 10K Frank? One of my old partners in the early 80s was a former FBI agent from that era.
> You read books, I am in the intelligence business for 32 years Frank. I own a fully top tier licensed detective agency for 32 years.
> NO intelligence organization wants information spread around in Washington in front of cameras.
> That is just common sense Frank. Do we do that now? Have hearings about the intelligence we conduct on TV?
> Only a naive gullible book buying ideologue believes that.
> That would be you. Here's your sign.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't give a fuck about your friends or whatever "Street creds" you're holding out, the fact remains you don't have a single fucking fact correct about what actually happened with McCarthy.
> 
> The only part you got right was his name was Joe McCarthy, everything else you've been a patsy of a 65-year long Progressive disinformation campaign.
> 
> You still have no idea what McCarthy said or what he hoped to accomplish or why he made his Wheeling Speech or went before the Senate.  Your ignorance is disgraceful.
> 
> Since Progressives lost their media monopoly, the facts have come out that the people McCarthy wanted the Senate to investigate have been confirmed as genuine Communist Spies by Moscow.  You have no response and no answer to that other than parroting the crap and nonsense you were spoon-fed your entire life.
> 
> Once again: a patriot at State handed McCarthy a list of Genuine Card Carrying Communist at State and McCarthy made a speech that he had a list but would not mention any names!
> 
> Your ignorance is painful.
Click to expand...


American intelligence operations dating back to the early 1940s Frank that relied on communist spies that were gathering intelligence about the Osenberg List were still in operation into the 70s until the fall of the Berlin Wall. Your claims that the United States had no intelligence operations in eastern Europe during WWII involving gathering intelligence on Russia are unbelievable. We were heavily involved with shipping military supplies to Russia as they were an ally and after the Siege of Leningrad in 1943 we damn well knew that Germany was at a large disadvantage with the Ruskies to the east. We also knew that their scientists were being gathered AND MOST IMPORTANTLY the Soviets had operations in place to kidnap as many as possible as early as late 1941. Included in this large scale OSS intelligence operation was the cultivation of Soviet government spies working for us. Operation Paperclip paid a pant load of $$ to Soviet military officers and other Soviet intelligence operatives for double espionage operations to ensure the bulk of German scientists came our way. These initial intelligence operations carried on with many of the same operatives and operational cells until the 1990s with the JIOA.
CIOS continued other efforts concerned about middle eastern countries bidding for the services of German scientists with nuclear smarts created more intelligence operations in that arena. Stay behind operations, HUMINT and Covert Action, was formed in 1945 and was the further continuation of Soviet Bloc, now the Warsaw Pact, infiltration with agents for intelligence behind the Soviet lines. 
In 1948 the OPC was formed Frank. Thiswas not CIA controlled. Hell, they did not trust anyone as they were labeled "intragency". These boys ran behind the lines counter intelligence behind the Iron Curtain. During the time that your boy McCarthy was blabbing his mouth the CIA merged the OPC and OSO labeled as The Directorate of Plans. This combined intelligence from the various behind the Iron Curtain intelligence networks we had including networks that were in Washington. You do know that at all times we had intelligence in Washington with Soviet spies in and out of government giving detailed information on the Soviet government and the passing of information both ways.
Frank, are you denying that Joe McCarthy seriously damaged these operations and that the military knew that and that is why McCarthy also accused them of having communists?
What you lack is a thorough background of the facts.
NO intelligence operation ever wants an investigation of what is going on ON NATIONAL TV.


----------



## HUGGY

Gadawg73 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Want to wager 10K Frank? One of my old partners in the early 80s was a former FBI agent from that era.
> You read books, I am in the intelligence business for 32 years Frank. I own a fully top tier licensed detective agency for 32 years.
> NO intelligence organization wants information spread around in Washington in front of cameras.
> That is just common sense Frank. Do we do that now? Have hearings about the intelligence we conduct on TV?
> Only a naive gullible book buying ideologue believes that.
> That would be you. Here's your sign.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't give a fuck about your friends or whatever "Street creds" you're holding out, the fact remains you don't have a single fucking fact correct about what actually happened with McCarthy.
> 
> The only part you got right was his name was Joe McCarthy, everything else you've been a patsy of a 65-year long Progressive disinformation campaign.
> 
> You still have no idea what McCarthy said or what he hoped to accomplish or why he made his Wheeling Speech or went before the Senate.  Your ignorance is disgraceful.
> 
> Since Progressives lost their media monopoly, the facts have come out that the people McCarthy wanted the Senate to investigate have been confirmed as genuine Communist Spies by Moscow.  You have no response and no answer to that other than parroting the crap and nonsense you were spoon-fed your entire life.
> 
> Once again: a patriot at State handed McCarthy a list of Genuine Card Carrying Communist at State and McCarthy made a speech that he had a list but would not mention any names!
> 
> Your ignorance is painful.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> American intelligence operations dating back to the early 1940s Frank that relied on communist spies that were gathering intelligence about the Osenberg List were still in operation into the 70s until the fall of the Berlin Wall. Your claims that the United States had no intelligence operations in eastern Europe during WWII involving gathering intelligence on Russia are unbelievable. We were heavily involved with shipping military supplies to Russia as they were an ally and after the Siege of Leningrad in 1943 we damn well knew that Germany was at a large disadvantage with the Ruskies to the east. We also knew that their scientists were being gathered AND MOST IMPORTANTLY the Soviets had operations in place to kidnap as many as possible as early as late 1941. Included in this large scale OSS intelligence operation was the cultivation of Soviet government spies working for us. Operation Paperclip paid a pant load of $$ to Soviet military officers and other Soviet intelligence operatives for double espionage operations to ensure the bulk of German scientists came our way. These initial intelligence operations carried on with many of the same operatives and operational cells until the 1990s with the JIOA.
> CIOS continued other efforts concerned about middle eastern countries bidding for the services of German scientists with nuclear smarts created more intelligence operations in that arena. Stay behind operations, HUMINT and Covert Action, was formed in 1945 and was the further continuation of Soviet Bloc, now the Warsaw Pact, infiltration with agents for intelligence behind the Soviet lines.
> In 1948 the OPC was formed Frank. Thiswas not CIA controlled. Hell, they did not trust anyone as they were labeled "intragency". These boys ran behind the lines counter intelligence behind the Iron Curtain. During the time that your boy McCarthy was blabbing his mouth the CIA merged the OPC and OSO labeled as The Directorate of Plans. This combined intelligence from the various behind the Iron Curtain intelligence networks we had including networks that were in Washington. You do know that at all times we had intelligence in Washington with Soviet spies in and out of government giving detailed information on the Soviet government and the passing of information both ways.
> Frank, are you denying that Joe McCarthy seriously damaged these operations and that the military knew that and that is why McCarthy also accused them of having communists?
> What you lack is a thorough background of the facts.
> NO intelligence operation ever wants an investigation of what is going on ON NATIONAL TV.
Click to expand...


Don't take the buzz of Frankies hysteria and harsh it with fax.  This should have been a 100 reply thread tops but he and his doppleganger PoliticalChicklets are like miniature pitbulls clinging to a chew toy...


----------



## PoliticalChic

HUGGY said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't give a fuck about your friends or whatever "Street creds" you're holding out, the fact remains you don't have a single fucking fact correct about what actually happened with McCarthy.
> 
> The only part you got right was his name was Joe McCarthy, everything else you've been a patsy of a 65-year long Progressive disinformation campaign.
> 
> You still have no idea what McCarthy said or what he hoped to accomplish or why he made his Wheeling Speech or went before the Senate.  Your ignorance is disgraceful.
> 
> Since Progressives lost their media monopoly, the facts have come out that the people McCarthy wanted the Senate to investigate have been confirmed as genuine Communist Spies by Moscow.  You have no response and no answer to that other than parroting the crap and nonsense you were spoon-fed your entire life.
> 
> Once again: a patriot at State handed McCarthy a list of Genuine Card Carrying Communist at State and McCarthy made a speech that he had a list but would not mention any names!
> 
> Your ignorance is painful.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> American intelligence operations dating back to the early 1940s Frank that relied on communist spies that were gathering intelligence about the Osenberg List were still in operation into the 70s until the fall of the Berlin Wall. Your claims that the United States had no intelligence operations in eastern Europe during WWII involving gathering intelligence on Russia are unbelievable. We were heavily involved with shipping military supplies to Russia as they were an ally and after the Siege of Leningrad in 1943 we damn well knew that Germany was at a large disadvantage with the Ruskies to the east. We also knew that their scientists were being gathered AND MOST IMPORTANTLY the Soviets had operations in place to kidnap as many as possible as early as late 1941. Included in this large scale OSS intelligence operation was the cultivation of Soviet government spies working for us. Operation Paperclip paid a pant load of $$ to Soviet military officers and other Soviet intelligence operatives for double espionage operations to ensure the bulk of German scientists came our way. These initial intelligence operations carried on with many of the same operatives and operational cells until the 1990s with the JIOA.
> CIOS continued other efforts concerned about middle eastern countries bidding for the services of German scientists with nuclear smarts created more intelligence operations in that arena. Stay behind operations, HUMINT and Covert Action, was formed in 1945 and was the further continuation of Soviet Bloc, now the Warsaw Pact, infiltration with agents for intelligence behind the Soviet lines.
> In 1948 the OPC was formed Frank. Thiswas not CIA controlled. Hell, they did not trust anyone as they were labeled "intragency". These boys ran behind the lines counter intelligence behind the Iron Curtain. During the time that your boy McCarthy was blabbing his mouth the CIA merged the OPC and OSO labeled as The Directorate of Plans. This combined intelligence from the various behind the Iron Curtain intelligence networks we had including networks that were in Washington. You do know that at all times we had intelligence in Washington with Soviet spies in and out of government giving detailed information on the Soviet government and the passing of information both ways.
> Frank, are you denying that Joe McCarthy seriously damaged these operations and that the military knew that and that is why McCarthy also accused them of having communists?
> What you lack is a thorough background of the facts.
> NO intelligence operation ever wants an investigation of what is going on ON NATIONAL TV.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Don't take the buzz of Frankies hysteria and harsh it with fax.  This should have been a 100 reply thread tops but he and his doppleganger PoliticalChicklets are like miniature pitbulls clinging to a chew toy...
Click to expand...


G-r-r-rrrrrrrrrrrrrr


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Gadawg73 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Want to wager 10K Frank? One of my old partners in the early 80s was a former FBI agent from that era.
> You read books, I am in the intelligence business for 32 years Frank. I own a fully top tier licensed detective agency for 32 years.
> NO intelligence organization wants information spread around in Washington in front of cameras.
> That is just common sense Frank. Do we do that now? Have hearings about the intelligence we conduct on TV?
> Only a naive gullible book buying ideologue believes that.
> That would be you. Here's your sign.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't give a fuck about your friends or whatever "Street creds" you're holding out, the fact remains you don't have a single fucking fact correct about what actually happened with McCarthy.
> 
> The only part you got right was his name was Joe McCarthy, everything else you've been a patsy of a 65-year long Progressive disinformation campaign.
> 
> You still have no idea what McCarthy said or what he hoped to accomplish or why he made his Wheeling Speech or went before the Senate.  Your ignorance is disgraceful.
> 
> Since Progressives lost their media monopoly, the facts have come out that the people McCarthy wanted the Senate to investigate have been confirmed as genuine Communist Spies by Moscow.  You have no response and no answer to that other than parroting the crap and nonsense you were spoon-fed your entire life.
> 
> Once again: a patriot at State handed McCarthy a list of Genuine Card Carrying Communist at State and McCarthy made a speech that he had a list but would not mention any names!
> 
> Your ignorance is painful.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> American intelligence operations dating back to the early 1940s Frank that relied on communist spies that were gathering intelligence about the Osenberg List were still in operation into the 70s until the fall of the Berlin Wall. Your claims that the United States had no intelligence operations in eastern Europe during WWII involving gathering intelligence on Russia are unbelievable. We were heavily involved with shipping military supplies to Russia as they were an ally and after the Siege of Leningrad in 1943 we damn well knew that Germany was at a large disadvantage with the Ruskies to the east. We also knew that their scientists were being gathered AND MOST IMPORTANTLY the Soviets had operations in place to kidnap as many as possible as early as late 1941. Included in this large scale OSS intelligence operation was the cultivation of Soviet government spies working for us. Operation Paperclip paid a pant load of $$ to Soviet military officers and other Soviet intelligence operatives for double espionage operations to ensure the bulk of German scientists came our way. These initial intelligence operations carried on with many of the same operatives and operational cells until the 1990s with the JIOA.
> CIOS continued other efforts concerned about middle eastern countries bidding for the services of German scientists with nuclear smarts created more intelligence operations in that arena. Stay behind operations, HUMINT and Covert Action, was formed in 1945 and was the further continuation of Soviet Bloc, now the Warsaw Pact, infiltration with agents for intelligence behind the Soviet lines.
> In 1948 the OPC was formed Frank. Thiswas not CIA controlled. Hell, they did not trust anyone as they were labeled "intragency". These boys ran behind the lines counter intelligence behind the Iron Curtain. During the time that your boy McCarthy was blabbing his mouth the CIA merged the OPC and OSO labeled as The Directorate of Plans. This combined intelligence from the various behind the Iron Curtain intelligence networks we had including networks that were in Washington. You do know that at all times we had intelligence in Washington with Soviet spies in and out of government giving detailed information on the Soviet government and the passing of information both ways.
> Frank, are you denying that Joe McCarthy seriously damaged these operations and that the military knew that and that is why McCarthy also accused them of having communists?
> What you lack is a thorough background of the facts.
> NO intelligence operation ever wants an investigation of what is going on ON NATIONAL TV.
Click to expand...


First, I never claimed "...that the United States had no intelligence operations in eastern Europe during WWII involving gathering intelligence on Russia are unbelievable."  You're just making shit up.

Second, the whole problem was that the Soviet spies at State twisted US policy to support Mao instead of Shek, Tito in Yugoslavia and gave Eastern Europe to the Rooskies after WWII, so whatever "Operations" we had, we were getting our lunch taken from us on a daily basis by the people McCarthy wanted to investigate.  By the time McCarthy went on record in 1950, over a billion people were subject to Communists thanks to their operation at US State and as a topper...

IN JUST A FEW MONTHS THE CHICOMS WOULD GIVE THE GO AHEAD TO START THE KOREAN WAR!

Whatever good our Intel was doing was DWARFED by what the Commies were doing to FDR and Truman via US State.

All Joe McCarthy was asking in Feb 1950 was why we had Card Carrying Communists at US State. The Democrats that ran Congress then did everything they could to protect the Commies at State and destroy McCarthy.

That's McCarthyism.

Get educated


----------



## CrusaderFrank

HUGGY said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't give a fuck about your friends or whatever "Street creds" you're holding out, the fact remains you don't have a single fucking fact correct about what actually happened with McCarthy.
> 
> The only part you got right was his name was Joe McCarthy, everything else you've been a patsy of a 65-year long Progressive disinformation campaign.
> 
> You still have no idea what McCarthy said or what he hoped to accomplish or why he made his Wheeling Speech or went before the Senate.  Your ignorance is disgraceful.
> 
> Since Progressives lost their media monopoly, the facts have come out that the people McCarthy wanted the Senate to investigate have been confirmed as genuine Communist Spies by Moscow.  You have no response and no answer to that other than parroting the crap and nonsense you were spoon-fed your entire life.
> 
> Once again: a patriot at State handed McCarthy a list of Genuine Card Carrying Communist at State and McCarthy made a speech that he had a list but would not mention any names!
> 
> Your ignorance is painful.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> American intelligence operations dating back to the early 1940s Frank that relied on communist spies that were gathering intelligence about the Osenberg List were still in operation into the 70s until the fall of the Berlin Wall. Your claims that the United States had no intelligence operations in eastern Europe during WWII involving gathering intelligence on Russia are unbelievable. We were heavily involved with shipping military supplies to Russia as they were an ally and after the Siege of Leningrad in 1943 we damn well knew that Germany was at a large disadvantage with the Ruskies to the east. We also knew that their scientists were being gathered AND MOST IMPORTANTLY the Soviets had operations in place to kidnap as many as possible as early as late 1941. Included in this large scale OSS intelligence operation was the cultivation of Soviet government spies working for us. Operation Paperclip paid a pant load of $$ to Soviet military officers and other Soviet intelligence operatives for double espionage operations to ensure the bulk of German scientists came our way. These initial intelligence operations carried on with many of the same operatives and operational cells until the 1990s with the JIOA.
> CIOS continued other efforts concerned about middle eastern countries bidding for the services of German scientists with nuclear smarts created more intelligence operations in that arena. Stay behind operations, HUMINT and Covert Action, was formed in 1945 and was the further continuation of Soviet Bloc, now the Warsaw Pact, infiltration with agents for intelligence behind the Soviet lines.
> In 1948 the OPC was formed Frank. Thiswas not CIA controlled. Hell, they did not trust anyone as they were labeled "intragency". These boys ran behind the lines counter intelligence behind the Iron Curtain. During the time that your boy McCarthy was blabbing his mouth the CIA merged the OPC and OSO labeled as The Directorate of Plans. This combined intelligence from the various behind the Iron Curtain intelligence networks we had including networks that were in Washington. You do know that at all times we had intelligence in Washington with Soviet spies in and out of government giving detailed information on the Soviet government and the passing of information both ways.
> Frank, are you denying that Joe McCarthy seriously damaged these operations and that the military knew that and that is why McCarthy also accused them of having communists?
> What you lack is a thorough background of the facts.
> NO intelligence operation ever wants an investigation of what is going on ON NATIONAL TV.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Don't take the buzz of Frankies hysteria and harsh it with fax.  This should have been a 100 reply thread tops but he and his doppleganger PoliticalChicklets are like miniature pitbulls clinging to a chew toy...
Click to expand...


Here's this thread:

Frank & PC post facts about McCarthy from FBI and Soviet files vindicating McCarthy initial charges, US Sate was indeed infiltrated.

Huggy, GFB28, Starkey & others: McCarthy ruined Zero Mostel!!!

Get a fucking clue

Oh, and the chief researcher for the book Blacklisted also visited and Hiroshima-ed the uneducated opposition


----------



## HUGGY

Tower:"Uhhhh..United heavy...you are next for take off...did you hear McCarthy was screwed?.."

United 695  "Come again tower?..."  

Tower: "UHhhh...Ya...wind northwest 10 mph...altimeter two niner dot niner ...Ya did ya read THE BOOK?...take off when ready.."

United 695: "Lay off the caffeine...have a nice day"


----------



## JakeStarkey

CrusaderFrank said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> You're full of crap and ignorant to boot
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Want to wager 10K Frank? One of my old partners in the early 80s was a former FBI agent from that era.
> You read books, I am in the intelligence business for 32 years Frank. I own a fully top tier licensed detective agency for 32 years.
> NO intelligence organization wants information spread around in Washington in front of cameras.
> That is just common sense Frank. Do we do that now? Have hearings about the intelligence we conduct on TV?
> Only a naive gullible book buying ideologue believes that.
> That would be you. Here's your sign.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't give a fuck about your friends or whatever "Street creds" you're holding out, the fact remains you don't have a single fucking fact correct about what actually happened with McCarthy.
> 
> The only part you got right was his name was Joe McCarthy, everything else you've been a patsy of a 65-year long Progressive disinformation campaign.
> 
> You still have no idea what McCarthy said or what he hoped to accomplish or why he made his Wheeling Speech or went before the Senate.  Your ignorance is disgraceful.
> 
> Since Progressives lost their media monopoly, the facts have come out that the people McCarthy wanted the Senate to investigate have been confirmed as genuine Communist Spies by Moscow.  You have no response and no answer to that other than parroting the crap and nonsense you were spoon-fed your entire life.
> 
> Once again: a patriot at State handed McCarthy a list of Genuine Card Carrying Communist at State and McCarthy made a speech that he had a list but would not mention any names!
> 
> Your ignorance is painful.
Click to expand...


Frank, you are disinformation program is disgraceful.  McCarthy "revealed" what everybody knew, he screwed innocent people, and was a drunk.  This is not American heroism, by anyone's stretch of imagination.

You don't like the truth?  No one cares, Frank.


----------



## JakeStarkey

CrusaderFrank said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't give a fuck about your friends or whatever "Street creds" you're holding out, the fact remains you don't have a single fucking fact correct about what actually happened with McCarthy.
> 
> The only part you got right was his name was Joe McCarthy, everything else you've been a patsy of a 65-year long Progressive disinformation campaign.
> 
> You still have no idea what McCarthy said or what he hoped to accomplish or why he made his Wheeling Speech or went before the Senate.  Your ignorance is disgraceful.
> 
> Since Progressives lost their media monopoly, the facts have come out that the people McCarthy wanted the Senate to investigate have been confirmed as genuine Communist Spies by Moscow.  You have no response and no answer to that other than parroting the crap and nonsense you were spoon-fed your entire life.
> 
> Once again: a patriot at State handed McCarthy a list of Genuine Card Carrying Communist at State and McCarthy made a speech that he had a list but would not mention any names!
> 
> Your ignorance is painful.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> American intelligence operations dating back to the early 1940s Frank that relied on communist spies that were gathering intelligence about the Osenberg List were still in operation into the 70s until the fall of the Berlin Wall. Your claims that the United States had no intelligence operations in eastern Europe during WWII involving gathering intelligence on Russia are unbelievable. We were heavily involved with shipping military supplies to Russia as they were an ally and after the Siege of Leningrad in 1943 we damn well knew that Germany was at a large disadvantage with the Ruskies to the east. We also knew that their scientists were being gathered AND MOST IMPORTANTLY the Soviets had operations in place to kidnap as many as possible as early as late 1941. Included in this large scale OSS intelligence operation was the cultivation of Soviet government spies working for us. Operation Paperclip paid a pant load of $$ to Soviet military officers and other Soviet intelligence operatives for double espionage operations to ensure the bulk of German scientists came our way. These initial intelligence operations carried on with many of the same operatives and operational cells until the 1990s with the JIOA.
> CIOS continued other efforts concerned about middle eastern countries bidding for the services of German scientists with nuclear smarts created more intelligence operations in that arena. Stay behind operations, HUMINT and Covert Action, was formed in 1945 and was the further continuation of Soviet Bloc, now the Warsaw Pact, infiltration with agents for intelligence behind the Soviet lines.
> In 1948 the OPC was formed Frank. Thiswas not CIA controlled. Hell, they did not trust anyone as they were labeled "intragency". These boys ran behind the lines counter intelligence behind the Iron Curtain. During the time that your boy McCarthy was blabbing his mouth the CIA merged the OPC and OSO labeled as The Directorate of Plans. This combined intelligence from the various behind the Iron Curtain intelligence networks we had including networks that were in Washington. You do know that at all times we had intelligence in Washington with Soviet spies in and out of government giving detailed information on the Soviet government and the passing of information both ways.
> Frank, are you denying that Joe McCarthy seriously damaged these operations and that the military knew that and that is why McCarthy also accused them of having communists?
> What you lack is a thorough background of the facts.
> NO intelligence operation ever wants an investigation of what is going on ON NATIONAL TV.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> First, I never claimed "...that the United States had no intelligence operations in eastern Europe during WWII involving gathering intelligence on Russia are unbelievable."  You're just making shit up.
> 
> Second, the whole problem was that the Soviet spies at State twisted US policy to support Mao instead of Shek, Tito in Yugoslavia and gave Eastern Europe to the Rooskies after WWII, so whatever "Operations" we had, we were getting our lunch taken from us on a daily basis by the people McCarthy wanted to investigate.  By the time McCarthy went on record in 1950, over a billion people were subject to Communists thanks to their operation at US State and as a topper...
> 
> IN JUST A FEW MONTHS THE CHICOMS WOULD GIVE THE GO AHEAD TO START THE KOREAN WAR!
> 
> Whatever good our Intel was doing was DWARFED by what the Commies were doing to FDR and Truman via US State.
> 
> All Joe McCarthy was asking in Feb 1950 was why we had Card Carrying Communists at US State. The Democrats that ran Congress then did everything they could to protect the Commies at State and destroy McCarthy.
> 
> That's McCarthyism.
> 
> Get educated
Click to expand...


Says the ignorant dweeb.  Links to credible evidence, Frank: I know, you don't have them.


----------



## Gadawg73

CrusaderFrank said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't give a fuck about your friends or whatever "Street creds" you're holding out, the fact remains you don't have a single fucking fact correct about what actually happened with McCarthy.
> 
> The only part you got right was his name was Joe McCarthy, everything else you've been a patsy of a 65-year long Progressive disinformation campaign.
> 
> You still have no idea what McCarthy said or what he hoped to accomplish or why he made his Wheeling Speech or went before the Senate.  Your ignorance is disgraceful.
> 
> Since Progressives lost their media monopoly, the facts have come out that the people McCarthy wanted the Senate to investigate have been confirmed as genuine Communist Spies by Moscow.  You have no response and no answer to that other than parroting the crap and nonsense you were spoon-fed your entire life.
> 
> Once again: a patriot at State handed McCarthy a list of Genuine Card Carrying Communist at State and McCarthy made a speech that he had a list but would not mention any names!
> 
> Your ignorance is painful.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> American intelligence operations dating back to the early 1940s Frank that relied on communist spies that were gathering intelligence about the Osenberg List were still in operation into the 70s until the fall of the Berlin Wall. Your claims that the United States had no intelligence operations in eastern Europe during WWII involving gathering intelligence on Russia are unbelievable. We were heavily involved with shipping military supplies to Russia as they were an ally and after the Siege of Leningrad in 1943 we damn well knew that Germany was at a large disadvantage with the Ruskies to the east. We also knew that their scientists were being gathered AND MOST IMPORTANTLY the Soviets had operations in place to kidnap as many as possible as early as late 1941. Included in this large scale OSS intelligence operation was the cultivation of Soviet government spies working for us. Operation Paperclip paid a pant load of $$ to Soviet military officers and other Soviet intelligence operatives for double espionage operations to ensure the bulk of German scientists came our way. These initial intelligence operations carried on with many of the same operatives and operational cells until the 1990s with the JIOA.
> CIOS continued other efforts concerned about middle eastern countries bidding for the services of German scientists with nuclear smarts created more intelligence operations in that arena. Stay behind operations, HUMINT and Covert Action, was formed in 1945 and was the further continuation of Soviet Bloc, now the Warsaw Pact, infiltration with agents for intelligence behind the Soviet lines.
> In 1948 the OPC was formed Frank. Thiswas not CIA controlled. Hell, they did not trust anyone as they were labeled "intragency". These boys ran behind the lines counter intelligence behind the Iron Curtain. During the time that your boy McCarthy was blabbing his mouth the CIA merged the OPC and OSO labeled as The Directorate of Plans. This combined intelligence from the various behind the Iron Curtain intelligence networks we had including networks that were in Washington. You do know that at all times we had intelligence in Washington with Soviet spies in and out of government giving detailed information on the Soviet government and the passing of information both ways.
> Frank, are you denying that Joe McCarthy seriously damaged these operations and that the military knew that and that is why McCarthy also accused them of having communists?
> What you lack is a thorough background of the facts.
> NO intelligence operation ever wants an investigation of what is going on ON NATIONAL TV.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> First, I never claimed "...that the United States had no intelligence operations in eastern Europe during WWII involving gathering intelligence on Russia are unbelievable."  You're just making shit up.
> 
> Second, the whole problem was that the Soviet spies at State twisted US policy to support Mao instead of Shek, Tito in Yugoslavia and gave Eastern Europe to the Rooskies after WWII, so whatever "Operations" we had, we were getting our lunch taken from us on a daily basis by the people McCarthy wanted to investigate.  By the time McCarthy went on record in 1950, over a billion people were subject to Communists thanks to their operation at US State and as a topper...
> 
> IN JUST A FEW MONTHS THE CHICOMS WOULD GIVE THE GO AHEAD TO START THE KOREAN WAR!
> 
> Whatever good our Intel was doing was DWARFED by what the Commies were doing to FDR and Truman via US State.
> 
> All Joe McCarthy was asking in Feb 1950 was why we had Card Carrying Communists at US State. The Democrats that ran Congress then did everything they could to protect the Commies at State and destroy McCarthy.
> 
> That's McCarthyism.
> 
> Get educated
Click to expand...


At US State Frank? That was all he was doing?
He accused those in the defense industries, Voice of America, Army, Government Printing Office, US Information Libraries and others Frank.
And who was David Schine Frank and what qualifications did he have to question witnesses? And if McCarthy had such good info then how come the majority of witnesses were questioned behind closed doors with him as the only Senator present? Very disturbing you do not know that Frank. And how come Roy Cohn was the only one questioning witnesses in those sessions? Interrogation is the better word. How come no one was ever imprisoned for anything related to their testimony and how come every single case made was either thrown out of court overturned on appeal.
And Frank old boy, tell us this: How come the Supreme court strenghtened the rights of witnesses appearing before Congressional committes after this witch hunt? The Court stated "to prevent a continuation of the abuses evident during Senator McCarthy's tenure".
The bell has rung Frank. History class is over for now. 

Give it up Frank. I agree with you on a lot of other things and believe you are a decent Joe.
I schooled you on this one as I know what happened. You relied on a bimbo right wing  anorexic blonde selling books. She is pimping her book Frank and sold a lie.


----------



## whitehall

Hollywood "blacklisted" writers and the left has been blaming a republican senator for half a century. Democrats created HUAC (the House Unamerican Activities Committee) and rightfully ivestigated Communist infiltration into American democracy and funded anti-communist law enforcement programs. The senate had no power to blacklist Americans. The McCarthy myth is a creation of the radical left.


----------



## Gadawg73

whitehall said:


> Hollywood "blacklisted" writers and the left has been blaming a republican senator for half a century. Democrats created HUAC (the House Unamerican Activities Committee) and rightfully ivestigated Communist infiltration into American democracy and funded anti-communist law enforcement programs. The senate had no power to blacklist Americans. The McCarthy myth is a creation of the radical left.



The Republican party, the military  and the intelligence community are the radical left.


----------



## JakeStarkey

whitehall you are a dupe and running lacky of the far right disinformation program.  

So let's get you right before you get left.

No one said that the Dems did not create HUAC.  No one said that communist infiltration of the government should not be investigated.  No one said that the Senate created blacklists.  Any suggestion by any American, right or center or left, that such occurred is the result of mental feebleness, outright ignorance, and or malignant motivation.

McCarthy smeared dishonestly his enemies: tis true.

McCarthy created an atmosphere so that blacklists were created in private sectors: tis true.

McCarthy was pulled down by outraged righteous members of the GOP: tis true.

McCarthy was an alcoholic: tis true.

whitehalls because of mental feebleness, outright ignorance, and or malignant motivation: so true.


----------



## Gadawg73

JakeStarkey said:


> whitehall you are a dupe and running lacky of the far right disinformation program.
> 
> So let's get you right before you get left.
> 
> No one said that the Dems did not create HUAC.  No one said that communist infiltration of the government should not be investigated.  No one said that the Senate created blacklists.  Any suggestion by any American, right or center or left, that such occurred is the result of mental feebleness, outright ignorance, and or malignant motivation.
> 
> McCarthy smeared dishonestly his enemies: tis true.
> 
> McCarthy created an atmosphere so that blacklists were created in private sectors: tis true.
> 
> McCarthy was pulled down by outraged righteous members of the GOP: tis true.
> 
> McCarthy was an alcoholic: tis true.
> 
> whitehalls because of mental feebleness, outright ignorance, and or malignant motivation: so true.



Jake, none of these Coulterians can answer:
Why was G. David Schine a "consultant" and asking most of witnesses questions behind closed doors?
They probably didn't even know this guy before I named him. He wasn't in bimbo's book.


----------



## American Horse

Gadawg73 said:


> Jake, none of these Coulterians can answer:
> Why was G. David Schine a "consultant" and asking most of witnesses questions behind closed doors?
> They probably didn't even know this guy before I named him. He wasn't in bimbo's book.



Gadawg, a search of this thread shows that Frank never one time mentioned the name Coulter; her name used in the context of this thread has mostly been mentioned by you.

Schine was a staffer on the committee.  Any attention to C-span vis-a-vis committee hearings (and I personally have watched plenty of them) will show staffers asking questions when careful attention to legal details are demanded. Legal staffers ask questions as stand-ins for senators, usually when they have drafted the questions and know more fully how answers lead from the substance of the questions. 

Whenever the answers to questions might or will be damaging to national security, and even to personal reputations the questioning goes behind closed doors, in what is called "executive session." We saw plenty of this in hearings of Clinton/Whitewater, Cliinton/Impeachment hearings, and others over the years.

The source material that Frank made the subject of the OP was Evans" Blacklisted, not Coulter's book.  G David Schine was referred to in 24 pages and numerous times in _Blacklisted,_ and the problematic nature of his involvement was covered therein.  
You deflect.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

JakeStarkey said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Want to wager 10K Frank? One of my old partners in the early 80s was a former FBI agent from that era.
> You read books, I am in the intelligence business for 32 years Frank. I own a fully top tier licensed detective agency for 32 years.
> NO intelligence organization wants information spread around in Washington in front of cameras.
> That is just common sense Frank. Do we do that now? Have hearings about the intelligence we conduct on TV?
> Only a naive gullible book buying ideologue believes that.
> That would be you. Here's your sign.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't give a fuck about your friends or whatever "Street creds" you're holding out, the fact remains you don't have a single fucking fact correct about what actually happened with McCarthy.
> 
> The only part you got right was his name was Joe McCarthy, everything else you've been a patsy of a 65-year long Progressive disinformation campaign.
> 
> You still have no idea what McCarthy said or what he hoped to accomplish or why he made his Wheeling Speech or went before the Senate.  Your ignorance is disgraceful.
> 
> Since Progressives lost their media monopoly, the facts have come out that the people McCarthy wanted the Senate to investigate have been confirmed as genuine Communist Spies by Moscow.  You have no response and no answer to that other than parroting the crap and nonsense you were spoon-fed your entire life.
> 
> Once again: a patriot at State handed McCarthy a list of Genuine Card Carrying Communist at State and McCarthy made a speech that he had a list but would not mention any names!
> 
> Your ignorance is painful.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Frank, you are disinformation program is disgraceful.  McCarthy "revealed" what everybody knew, he screwed innocent people, and was a drunk.  This is not American heroism, by anyone's stretch of imagination.
> 
> You don't like the truth?  No one cares, Frank.
Click to expand...


Again, to recap, and not for the last time.

Joe McCarthy, American Patriot and Hero, called the penetration of US State and government by Communists "a conspiracy of infamy so black that, when it is finally exposed, its principals shall be forever deserving of the maledictions of all honest men."

In his own words, since validated by the Russians themselves.

Joe McCarthy's Senate speech of June 14, 1951:

"How can we account for our present situation unless we believe that men high in this Government are concerting to deliver us to disaster? This must be the product of a great conspiracy, a conspiracy on a scale so immense as to dwarf any previous such venture in the history of man. A conspiracy of infamy so black that, when it is finally exposed, its principals shall be forever deserving of the maledictions of all honest men.

Who constitutes the highest circles of this conspiracy? About that we cannot be sure. We are convinced that Dean Acheson, who steadfastly serves the interests of nations other than his own, the friend of Alger Hiss, who supported him in his hour of retribution, who contributed to his defense fund, must be high on the roster. The President? He is their captive. I have wondered, as have you, why he did not dispense with so great a liability as Acheson to his own and his party's interests. It is now clear to me. In the relationship of master and man, did you ever hear of man firing master? Truman is a satisfactory front. He is only dimly aware of what is going on..."

Mao got China, Stalin got Eastern Europe, and thanks to Useful idiots FDR and Truman, McCarthy got ruined for telling the truth about all of it.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

JakeStarkey said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> American intelligence operations dating back to the early 1940s Frank that relied on communist spies that were gathering intelligence about the Osenberg List were still in operation into the 70s until the fall of the Berlin Wall. Your claims that the United States had no intelligence operations in eastern Europe during WWII involving gathering intelligence on Russia are unbelievable. We were heavily involved with shipping military supplies to Russia as they were an ally and after the Siege of Leningrad in 1943 we damn well knew that Germany was at a large disadvantage with the Ruskies to the east. We also knew that their scientists were being gathered AND MOST IMPORTANTLY the Soviets had operations in place to kidnap as many as possible as early as late 1941. Included in this large scale OSS intelligence operation was the cultivation of Soviet government spies working for us. Operation Paperclip paid a pant load of $$ to Soviet military officers and other Soviet intelligence operatives for double espionage operations to ensure the bulk of German scientists came our way. These initial intelligence operations carried on with many of the same operatives and operational cells until the 1990s with the JIOA.
> CIOS continued other efforts concerned about middle eastern countries bidding for the services of German scientists with nuclear smarts created more intelligence operations in that arena. Stay behind operations, HUMINT and Covert Action, was formed in 1945 and was the further continuation of Soviet Bloc, now the Warsaw Pact, infiltration with agents for intelligence behind the Soviet lines.
> In 1948 the OPC was formed Frank. Thiswas not CIA controlled. Hell, they did not trust anyone as they were labeled "intragency". These boys ran behind the lines counter intelligence behind the Iron Curtain. During the time that your boy McCarthy was blabbing his mouth the CIA merged the OPC and OSO labeled as The Directorate of Plans. This combined intelligence from the various behind the Iron Curtain intelligence networks we had including networks that were in Washington. You do know that at all times we had intelligence in Washington with Soviet spies in and out of government giving detailed information on the Soviet government and the passing of information both ways.
> Frank, are you denying that Joe McCarthy seriously damaged these operations and that the military knew that and that is why McCarthy also accused them of having communists?
> What you lack is a thorough background of the facts.
> NO intelligence operation ever wants an investigation of what is going on ON NATIONAL TV.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First, I never claimed "...that the United States had no intelligence operations in eastern Europe during WWII involving gathering intelligence on Russia are unbelievable."  You're just making shit up.
> 
> Second, the whole problem was that the Soviet spies at State twisted US policy to support Mao instead of Shek, Tito in Yugoslavia and gave Eastern Europe to the Rooskies after WWII, so whatever "Operations" we had, we were getting our lunch taken from us on a daily basis by the people McCarthy wanted to investigate.  By the time McCarthy went on record in 1950, over a billion people were subject to Communists thanks to their operation at US State and as a topper...
> 
> IN JUST A FEW MONTHS THE CHICOMS WOULD GIVE THE GO AHEAD TO START THE KOREAN WAR!
> 
> Whatever good our Intel was doing was DWARFED by what the Commies were doing to FDR and Truman via US State.
> 
> All Joe McCarthy was asking in Feb 1950 was why we had Card Carrying Communists at US State. The Democrats that ran Congress then did everything they could to protect the Commies at State and destroy McCarthy.
> 
> That's McCarthyism.
> 
> Get educated
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Says the ignorant dweeb.  Links to credible evidence, Frank: I know, you don't have them.
Click to expand...


I'm still waiting for you to post the contrary footnote to the book you did not read


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Gadawg73 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> American intelligence operations dating back to the early 1940s Frank that relied on communist spies that were gathering intelligence about the Osenberg List were still in operation into the 70s until the fall of the Berlin Wall. Your claims that the United States had no intelligence operations in eastern Europe during WWII involving gathering intelligence on Russia are unbelievable. We were heavily involved with shipping military supplies to Russia as they were an ally and after the Siege of Leningrad in 1943 we damn well knew that Germany was at a large disadvantage with the Ruskies to the east. We also knew that their scientists were being gathered AND MOST IMPORTANTLY the Soviets had operations in place to kidnap as many as possible as early as late 1941. Included in this large scale OSS intelligence operation was the cultivation of Soviet government spies working for us. Operation Paperclip paid a pant load of $$ to Soviet military officers and other Soviet intelligence operatives for double espionage operations to ensure the bulk of German scientists came our way. These initial intelligence operations carried on with many of the same operatives and operational cells until the 1990s with the JIOA.
> CIOS continued other efforts concerned about middle eastern countries bidding for the services of German scientists with nuclear smarts created more intelligence operations in that arena. Stay behind operations, HUMINT and Covert Action, was formed in 1945 and was the further continuation of Soviet Bloc, now the Warsaw Pact, infiltration with agents for intelligence behind the Soviet lines.
> In 1948 the OPC was formed Frank. Thiswas not CIA controlled. Hell, they did not trust anyone as they were labeled "intragency". These boys ran behind the lines counter intelligence behind the Iron Curtain. During the time that your boy McCarthy was blabbing his mouth the CIA merged the OPC and OSO labeled as The Directorate of Plans. This combined intelligence from the various behind the Iron Curtain intelligence networks we had including networks that were in Washington. You do know that at all times we had intelligence in Washington with Soviet spies in and out of government giving detailed information on the Soviet government and the passing of information both ways.
> Frank, are you denying that Joe McCarthy seriously damaged these operations and that the military knew that and that is why McCarthy also accused them of having communists?
> What you lack is a thorough background of the facts.
> NO intelligence operation ever wants an investigation of what is going on ON NATIONAL TV.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First, I never claimed "...that the United States had no intelligence operations in eastern Europe during WWII involving gathering intelligence on Russia are unbelievable."  You're just making shit up.
> 
> Second, the whole problem was that the Soviet spies at State twisted US policy to support Mao instead of Shek, Tito in Yugoslavia and gave Eastern Europe to the Rooskies after WWII, so whatever "Operations" we had, we were getting our lunch taken from us on a daily basis by the people McCarthy wanted to investigate.  By the time McCarthy went on record in 1950, over a billion people were subject to Communists thanks to their operation at US State and as a topper...
> 
> IN JUST A FEW MONTHS THE CHICOMS WOULD GIVE THE GO AHEAD TO START THE KOREAN WAR!
> 
> Whatever good our Intel was doing was DWARFED by what the Commies were doing to FDR and Truman via US State.
> 
> All Joe McCarthy was asking in Feb 1950 was why we had Card Carrying Communists at US State. The Democrats that ran Congress then did everything they could to protect the Commies at State and destroy McCarthy.
> 
> That's McCarthyism.
> 
> Get educated
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> At US State Frank? That was all he was doing?
> He accused those in the defense industries, Voice of America, Army, Government Printing Office, US Information Libraries and others Frank.
> And who was David Schine Frank and what qualifications did he have to question witnesses? And if McCarthy had such good info then how come the majority of witnesses were questioned behind closed doors with him as the only Senator present? Very disturbing you do not know that Frank. And how come Roy Cohn was the only one questioning witnesses in those sessions? Interrogation is the better word. How come no one was ever imprisoned for anything related to their testimony and how come every single case made was either thrown out of court overturned on appeal.
> And Frank old boy, tell us this: How come the Supreme court strenghtened the rights of witnesses appearing before Congressional committes after this witch hunt? The Court stated "to prevent a continuation of the abuses evident during Senator McCarthy's tenure".
> The bell has rung Frank. History class is over for now.
> 
> Give it up Frank. I agree with you on a lot of other things and believe you are a decent Joe.
> I schooled you on this one as I know what happened. You relied on a bimbo right wing  anorexic blonde selling books. She is pimping her book Frank and sold a lie.
Click to expand...


You schooled me? You're totally deluded.

You have not updated your "McCarthy" file in 65 years.  If you paid any attention at all to events since the mid 90's you'd know that the people McCarthy expressed an interest in, people who handed China to Mao and Eastern Europe to Stalin were on Moscow payroll.

Get a clue.

Here's the deal, McCarthy tried to warn us that high ranking officials were not working for the best interests of the USA, they were loyal to Communism and thwarted US police toward the Communists. Then Communists at State and their allies in the media and Senate struck back at McCarthy for outing them.  That's McCarthyism!

You should know I give the Communists full credit for running an effective Intel operation that twist US policy and three US Presidents in the process.  That's fucking awesome on their part!  I'd love to know how they did that!

You schooled me? LOL


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Gadawg73 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> American intelligence operations dating back to the early 1940s Frank that relied on communist spies that were gathering intelligence about the Osenberg List were still in operation into the 70s until the fall of the Berlin Wall. Your claims that the United States had no intelligence operations in eastern Europe during WWII involving gathering intelligence on Russia are unbelievable. We were heavily involved with shipping military supplies to Russia as they were an ally and after the Siege of Leningrad in 1943 we damn well knew that Germany was at a large disadvantage with the Ruskies to the east. We also knew that their scientists were being gathered AND MOST IMPORTANTLY the Soviets had operations in place to kidnap as many as possible as early as late 1941. Included in this large scale OSS intelligence operation was the cultivation of Soviet government spies working for us. Operation Paperclip paid a pant load of $$ to Soviet military officers and other Soviet intelligence operatives for double espionage operations to ensure the bulk of German scientists came our way. These initial intelligence operations carried on with many of the same operatives and operational cells until the 1990s with the JIOA.
> CIOS continued other efforts concerned about middle eastern countries bidding for the services of German scientists with nuclear smarts created more intelligence operations in that arena. Stay behind operations, HUMINT and Covert Action, was formed in 1945 and was the further continuation of Soviet Bloc, now the Warsaw Pact, infiltration with agents for intelligence behind the Soviet lines.
> In 1948 the OPC was formed Frank. Thiswas not CIA controlled. Hell, they did not trust anyone as they were labeled "intragency". These boys ran behind the lines counter intelligence behind the Iron Curtain. During the time that your boy McCarthy was blabbing his mouth the CIA merged the OPC and OSO labeled as The Directorate of Plans. This combined intelligence from the various behind the Iron Curtain intelligence networks we had including networks that were in Washington. You do know that at all times we had intelligence in Washington with Soviet spies in and out of government giving detailed information on the Soviet government and the passing of information both ways.
> Frank, are you denying that Joe McCarthy seriously damaged these operations and that the military knew that and that is why McCarthy also accused them of having communists?
> What you lack is a thorough background of the facts.
> NO intelligence operation ever wants an investigation of what is going on ON NATIONAL TV.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First, I never claimed "...that the United States had no intelligence operations in eastern Europe during WWII involving gathering intelligence on Russia are unbelievable."  You're just making shit up.
> 
> Second, the whole problem was that the Soviet spies at State twisted US policy to support Mao instead of Shek, Tito in Yugoslavia and gave Eastern Europe to the Rooskies after WWII, so whatever "Operations" we had, we were getting our lunch taken from us on a daily basis by the people McCarthy wanted to investigate.  By the time McCarthy went on record in 1950, over a billion people were subject to Communists thanks to their operation at US State and as a topper...
> 
> IN JUST A FEW MONTHS THE CHICOMS WOULD GIVE THE GO AHEAD TO START THE KOREAN WAR!
> 
> Whatever good our Intel was doing was DWARFED by what the Commies were doing to FDR and Truman via US State.
> 
> All Joe McCarthy was asking in Feb 1950 was why we had Card Carrying Communists at US State. The Democrats that ran Congress then did everything they could to protect the Commies at State and destroy McCarthy.
> 
> That's McCarthyism.
> 
> Get educated
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> At US State Frank? That was all he was doing?
> He accused those in the defense industries, Voice of America, Army, Government Printing Office, US Information Libraries and others Frank.
> And who was David Schine Frank and what qualifications did he have to question witnesses? And if McCarthy had such good info then how come the majority of witnesses were questioned behind closed doors with him as the only Senator present? Very disturbing you do not know that Frank. And how come Roy Cohn was the only one questioning witnesses in those sessions? Interrogation is the better word. How come no one was ever imprisoned for anything related to their testimony and how come every single case made was either thrown out of court overturned on appeal.
> And Frank old boy, tell us this: How come the Supreme court strenghtened the rights of witnesses appearing before Congressional committes after this witch hunt? The Court stated "to prevent a continuation of the abuses evident during Senator McCarthy's tenure".
> The bell has rung Frank. History class is over for now.
> 
> Give it up Frank. I agree with you on a lot of other things and believe you are a decent Joe.
> I schooled you on this one as I know what happened. You relied on a bimbo right wing  anorexic blonde selling books. She is pimping her book Frank and sold a lie.
Click to expand...


OK, one more thing Dick Tracy, here's the "bimbo right wing  anorexic blonde selling books"

"Blacklisted" was written by M. Stanton Evans who went through tens of thousand of pages from the FBI and the Russians while you, even still months after I started this thread, can't be troubled to even Google the book must less crack it open.  His researcher even showed up a few months back to spank the daylights out of you and Jake and you STILL have not looked at the book!


----------



## CrusaderFrank

whitehall said:


> Hollywood "blacklisted" writers and the left has been blaming a republican senator for half a century. Democrats created HUAC (the House Unamerican Activities Committee) and rightfully ivestigated Communist infiltration into American democracy and funded anti-communist law enforcement programs. The senate had no power to blacklist Americans. The McCarthy myth is a creation of the radical left.



You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to whitehall again

And you have to love how the Useful Idiots on the Left continue to parrot the Party line even over a decade after the Soviets themselves admit McCarthy was correct


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Gadawg73 said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> whitehall you are a dupe and running lacky of the far right disinformation program.
> 
> So let's get you right before you get left.
> 
> No one said that the Dems did not create HUAC.  No one said that communist infiltration of the government should not be investigated.  No one said that the Senate created blacklists.  Any suggestion by any American, right or center or left, that such occurred is the result of mental feebleness, outright ignorance, and or malignant motivation.
> 
> McCarthy smeared dishonestly his enemies: tis true.
> 
> McCarthy created an atmosphere so that blacklists were created in private sectors: tis true.
> 
> McCarthy was pulled down by outraged righteous members of the GOP: tis true.
> 
> McCarthy was an alcoholic: tis true.
> 
> whitehalls because of mental feebleness, outright ignorance, and or malignant motivation: so true.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jake, none of these Coulterians can answer:
> Why was G. David Schine a "consultant" and asking most of witnesses questions behind closed doors?
> They probably didn't even know this guy before I named him. He wasn't in bimbo's book.
Click to expand...


First, M. Stanton Evans wrote "Blacklisted" and is not a "bimbo"






Here's another picture of him. Maybe you can tell us what makes you think he's a bimbo?

School me, school us all on this.

Second, David Schein is covered in "Blacklisted" the book by the bimbo


----------



## CrusaderFrank

JakeStarkey said:


> whitehall you are a dupe and running lacky of the far right disinformation program.
> 
> So let's get you right before you get left.
> 
> No one said that the Dems did not create HUAC.  No one said that communist infiltration of the government should not be investigated.  No one said that the Senate created blacklists.  Any suggestion by any American, right or center or left, that such occurred is the result of mental feebleness, outright ignorance, and or malignant motivation.
> 
> McCarthy smeared dishonestly his enemies: tis true.
> 
> McCarthy created an atmosphere so that blacklists were created in private sectors: tis true.
> 
> McCarthy was pulled down by outraged righteous members of the GOP: tis true.
> 
> McCarthy was an alcoholic: tis true.
> 
> whitehalls because of mental feebleness, outright ignorance, and or malignant motivation: so true.



Jake has yet to post his contrary footnote to the book he did not read: tis true


----------



## PoliticalChic

CrusaderFrank said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hollywood "blacklisted" writers and the left has been blaming a republican senator for half a century. Democrats created HUAC (the House Unamerican Activities Committee) and rightfully ivestigated Communist infiltration into American democracy and funded anti-communist law enforcement programs. The senate had no power to blacklist Americans. The McCarthy myth is a creation of the radical left.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to whitehall again
> 
> And you have to love how the Useful Idiots on the Left continue to parrot the Party line even over a decade after the Soviets themselves admit McCarthy was correct
Click to expand...


CF, whenever I see material such as the review of "Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler And Stalin"
By Timothy Snyder
  in the New Republic, I am amazed at the density of the two that you still have the patience to converse with...talk about 'pearls before swine...."

These dunces grouse about the style of Senator McCarthy, how mean he was, when the heros of the the men he exposed endorsed mayhem such as the following"

"Now we will live!... the hungry little boy liked to say ... but the food that he saw was only in his imagination. So the little boy died, together with three million fellow Ukrainians, in the mass starvation that Stalin created in 1933. I will meet her ... under the ground, a young Soviet man said about his wife. Both were shot in the course of Stalins Great Terror of 1937 and 1938, which claimed 700,000 victims. Two hundred thousand Polish citizens were shot by the Soviets or the Germans at the beginning of World War II. Only Tania is left, a little Russian girl wrote in her diary in besieged Leningrad, where the rest of her family and nearly one million other Leningraders starved to death. I am saying good-bye to you before I die. I am so afraid of this death because they throw small children into the mass graves alive, a twelve-year-old Jewish girl in Belarus wrote to her father. She was among the more than five million Jews gassed or shot by the Germans.

So begins Bloodlands, a genuinely shattering report on the ideology, the political strategy, and the daily horror of Soviet and Nazi rule in the region that Timothy Snyder calls the bloodlands." 
Review Of Timothy Snyder's 'Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler And Stalin' | The New Republic


And the horse's rear ends agonize over the little darlings who were ready to bring 'Bloodlands' to the United States...and their penalty?
They had to work under an alias for a few years! 

Heaven forfend!


----------



## CrusaderFrank

PoliticalChic said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hollywood "blacklisted" writers and the left has been blaming a republican senator for half a century. Democrats created HUAC (the House Unamerican Activities Committee) and rightfully ivestigated Communist infiltration into American democracy and funded anti-communist law enforcement programs. The senate had no power to blacklist Americans. The McCarthy myth is a creation of the radical left.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to whitehall again
> 
> And you have to love how the Useful Idiots on the Left continue to parrot the Party line even over a decade after the Soviets themselves admit McCarthy was correct
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> CF, whenever I see material such as the review of "Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler And Stalin"
> By Timothy Snyder
> in the New Republic, I am amazed at the density of the two that you still have the patience to converse with...talk about 'pearls before swine...."
> 
> These dunces grouse about the style of Senator McCarthy, how mean he was, when the heros of the the men he exposed endorsed mayhem such as the following"
> 
> "&#8216;Now we will live!&#8217;... the hungry little boy liked to say ... but the food that he saw was only in his imagination.&#8221; So the little boy died, together with three million fellow Ukrainians, in the mass starvation that Stalin created in 1933. &#8220;I will meet her ... under the ground,&#8221; a young Soviet man said about his wife. Both were shot in the course of Stalin&#8217;s Great Terror of 1937 and 1938, which claimed 700,000 victims. &#8220;Two hundred thousand Polish citizens were shot by the Soviets or the Germans at the beginning of World War II.&#8221; &#8220;Only Tania is left,&#8221; a little Russian girl wrote in her diary in besieged Leningrad, where the rest of her family and nearly one million other Leningraders starved to death. &#8220;I am saying good-bye to you before I die. I am so afraid of this death because they throw small children into the mass graves alive,&#8221; a twelve-year-old Jewish girl in Belarus wrote to her father. &#8220;She was among the more than five million Jews gassed or shot by the Germans.&#8221;
> 
> So begins Bloodlands, a genuinely shattering report on the ideology, the political strategy, and the daily horror of Soviet and Nazi rule in the region that Timothy Snyder calls the bloodlands."
> Review Of Timothy Snyder's 'Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler And Stalin' | The New Republic
> 
> 
> And the horse's rear ends agonize over the little darlings who were ready to bring 'Bloodlands' to the United States...and their penalty?
> They had to work under an alias for a few years!
> 
> Heaven forfend!
Click to expand...


And there you have it.

That's what never ceases to amaze me, is how people with a brain can defend Communists and take as no big deal their infiltration of the US government to tilt world events their way.

Over a billion enslaved, tens of millions murdered, Eastern Europe including half of Berlin, Prague and Vienna used as a "Buffer Zone" and I have to hear about a pimple on the World's Ass like David Schein?


----------



## JakeStarkey

Horsecrap, you two.  You have posted nothing of real content.  

Can you refute: (1) The man was an alcoholic.  (2) The man created at an atmosphere of unbalanced persecution of many Americans who were innocent of the charges.  (3) The man was pulled down by his own party.

It is (3) you keep ignoring so that will be the one I will keep posting.


----------



## elvis

JakeStarkey said:


> Horsecrap, you two.  You have posted nothing of real content.
> 
> Can you refute: (1) The man was an alcoholic.  (2) The man created at an atmosphere of unbalanced persecution of many Americans who were innocent of the charges.  (3) The man was pulled down by his own party.
> 
> It is (3) you keep ignoring so that will be the one I will keep posting.



How is his alcoholism relevant?


----------



## JakeStarkey

Elvis, it is not relevant, any more than the nonsense that PC and CF post.  But it is fun to point out.  I wonder how many on the far right who post on the Board have drinking problems?  None, I hope.


----------



## PoliticalChic

JakeStarkey said:


> Elvis, it is not relevant, any more than the nonsense that PC and CF post.  But it is fun to point out.  I wonder how many on the far right who post on the Board have drinking problems?  None, I hope.



Imagine an insignificant centipede commenting on a minor vice of a great hero thusly :"fun to point out."
Kind of reeks of Noah's son Ham, and his little 'jokes.' It indicates a re-reading of Genesis  9: 20-27 might be called for.

Astounding that this empty barrel pretends to have some understanding of events that shape the world and alter history, i.e., Senator McCarthy illuminating the dark forces that would have subverted American democracy, and this baboon conflates some personal foible with heroic struggles, struggles that- to judge by this dunce's post, are still going on...but if one is to judge the man, rather than the accomplishments of the Senator, then consder the following:

"Although his judgeship exempted him from military service, *McCarthy enlisted in the Marines and was sworn in as a first lieutenant in August 1942.* He served as an *intelligence officer *for a bomber squadron stationed in the Solomon Islands, and also *risked his life *by volunteering to fly in the tail-gunner's seat on many *combat missions. *Those who quibble about the number of combat missions he flew miss the point - *he didn't have to fly any.* 

The enemies of McCarthy have seized on his good-natured remark about shooting down coconut trees from his tail-gunner's spot (an ABC television movie about McCarthy in the late 1970s was entitled Tail Gunner Joe) *to belittle his military accomplishments*, but the official record gives the true picture. Not only were McCarthy's achievements during 30 months of *active duty unanimously praised by his commanding officers*, but *Admiral Chester Nimitz, commander in chief of the Pacific Fleet, issued the following citation regarding the service of Captain McCarthy: *

For *meritorious and efficient performance *of duty as an observer and rear gunner of a dive bomber attached to a Marine scout bombing squadron operating in the Solomon Islands area from September 1 to December 31, 1943. He participated in a large number of *combat missions*, and in addition to his regular duties, acted as aerial photographer. He obtained excellent photographs of enemy gun positions, *despite intense anti-aircraft fire,* thereby gaining valuable information which contributed materially to the success of subsequent strikes in the area. Although suffering from a severe leg injury, he *refused to be hospitalized and continued to carry out his duties *as Intelligence Officer in a highly efficient manner. His *courageous devotion *to duty was in keeping with the highest traditions of the naval service."
Senator Joseph R. McCarthy

If that's not enough to counter the slander of being an alcoholic, there was another military man and hero, General Ulysses S. Grant, about whom it has been written:

"That Grant drank occasionally while on duty is a matter of record, as is the fact that on more than a few occasions he drank until intoxicated, stuporous, and violently ill."
Was Grant a Drunk?


----------



## JakeStarkey

PoliticalChic said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Elvis, it is not relevant, any more than the nonsense that PC and CF post.  But it is fun to point out.  I wonder how many on the far right who post on the Board have drinking problems?  None, I hope.
> 
> 
> 
> <snip>
Click to expand...


Why the <snip> ?  She posts nothing to the post.  As I wrote above, "it is not relevant" about McCarthy's drinking.

What is relevant is this.  I have asked PC Minion why McCarthy's own party leaders pulled him down.  She has never answered that.

PC, I will keep snipping your irrelevant remarks.  You will answer this, or look stupid when you post.


----------



## Gadawg73

American Horse said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jake, none of these Coulterians can answer:
> Why was G. David Schine a "consultant" and asking most of witnesses questions behind closed doors?
> They probably didn't even know this guy before I named him. He wasn't in bimbo's book.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg, a search of this thread shows that Frank never one time mentioned the name Coulter; her name used in the context of this thread has mostly been mentioned by you.
> 
> Schine was a staffer on the committee.  Any attention to C-span vis-a-vis committee hearings (and I personally have watched plenty of them) will show staffers asking questions when careful attention to legal details are demanded. Legal staffers ask questions as stand-ins for senators, usually when they have drafted the questions and know more fully how answers lead from the substance of the questions.
> 
> Whenever the answers to questions might or will be damaging to national security, and even to personal reputations the questioning goes behind closed doors, in what is called "executive session." We saw plenty of this in hearings of Clinton/Whitewater, Cliinton/Impeachment hearings, and others over the years.
> 
> The source material that Frank made the subject of the OP was Evans" Blacklisted, not Coulter's book.  G David Schine was referred to in 24 pages and numerous times in _Blacklisted,_ and the problematic nature of his involvement was covered therein.
> You deflect.
Click to expand...


Schine a staffer?
He never was an employee of the government and never received a paycheck.
Staffer? He was listed as "consultant".
You have NO clue so give it up before I make you look very foolish also.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

JakeStarkey said:


> Horsecrap, you two.  You have posted nothing of real content.
> 
> Can you refute: (1) The man was an alcoholic.  (2) The man created at an atmosphere of unbalanced persecution of many Americans who were innocent of the charges.  (3) The man was pulled down by his own party.
> 
> It is (3) you keep ignoring so that will be the one I will keep posting.



The man was 100% correct about Communist infiltration of US State and I'm still waiting for you to post one contrary footnote from the book you did not read


----------



## PoliticalChic

JakeStarkey said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Elvis, it is not relevant, any more than the nonsense that PC and CF post.  But it is fun to point out.  I wonder how many on the far right who post on the Board have drinking problems?  None, I hope.
> 
> 
> 
> <snip>
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why the <snip> ?  She posts nothing to the post.  As I wrote above, "it is not relevant" about McCarthy's drinking.
> 
> What is relevant is this.  I have asked PC Minion why McCarthy's own party leaders pulled him down.  She has never answered that.
> 
> PC, I will keep snipping your irrelevant remarks.  You will answer this, or look stupid when you post.
Click to expand...


Isn't it instructive that the less than gifted, that would be you, latch on to some word or phrase that, in your occluded state, seems dispositive...and you perseverate same over and over...

You have no clue that:

1. your semi-literate phrase has no meaning in the context of this debate...just as you lack the acumen to participate in same.

2. you obviously don't understand that the unspoken assumptions in your insipid question are the following:
a. that his party understood the threat as the Senator did; what evidence have you provided that the politicians are not as ignorant as you are?

b. that the rest of his party was willing to take on the contumely that the Senator has faced.  Bravery is rarely the province of a politician.

Again, you are an excellent example: even when primary and secondary sources attest to the Senators argument, you refuse to consider it, as though it has less moment than your particular bias.

In summary, your cretinous asininity is documented by demanding that his party somehow validate his charges, even though history has done exactly that.


----------



## JakeStarkey

PoliticalChic said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> <snip>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why the <snip> ?  She posts nothing to the post.  As I wrote above, "it is not relevant" about McCarthy's drinking.
> 
> What is relevant is this.  I have asked PC Minion why McCarthy's own party leaders pulled him down.  She has never answered that.
> 
> PC, I will keep snipping your irrelevant remarks.  You will answer this, or look stupid when you post.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Isn't it instructive that the less than gifted, that would be you, latch on to some word or phrase that, in your occluded state, seems dispositive...and you perseverate same over and over...
> 
> You have no clue that:
> 
> 1. your semi-literate phrase has no meaning in the context of this debate...just as you lack the acumen to participate in same.
> 
> 2. you obviously don't understand that the unspoken assumptions in your insipid question are the following:
> a. that his party understood the threat as the Senator did; what evidence have you provided that the politicians are not as ignorant as you are?
> 
> b. that the rest of his party was willing to take on the contumely that the Senator has faced.  Bravery is rarely the province of a politician.
> 
> Again, you are an excellent example: even when primary and secondary sources attest to the Senators argument, you refuse to consider it, as though it has less moment than your particular bias.
> 
> In summary, your cretinous asininity is documented by demanding that his party somehow validate his charges, even though history has done exactly that.
Click to expand...


I told you would look stupid.   What is relevant is this. I have asked PC Minion why McCarthy's own party leaders pulled him down. She has never answered that.  PC, you will answer this, or look stupid when you post.


----------



## PoliticalChic

JakeStarkey said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why the <snip> ?  She posts nothing to the post.  As I wrote above, "it is not relevant" about McCarthy's drinking.
> 
> What is relevant is this.  I have asked PC Minion why McCarthy's own party leaders pulled him down.  She has never answered that.
> 
> PC, I will keep snipping your irrelevant remarks.  You will answer this, or look stupid when you post.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't it instructive that the less than gifted, that would be you, latch on to some word or phrase that, in your occluded state, seems dispositive...and you perseverate same over and over...
> 
> You have no clue that:
> 
> 1. your semi-literate phrase has no meaning in the context of this debate...just as you lack the acumen to participate in same.
> 
> 2. you obviously don't understand that the unspoken assumptions in your insipid question are the following:
> a. that his party understood the threat as the Senator did; what evidence have you provided that the politicians are not as ignorant as you are?
> 
> b. that the rest of his party was willing to take on the contumely that the Senator has faced.  Bravery is rarely the province of a politician.
> 
> Again, you are an excellent example: even when primary and secondary sources attest to the Senators argument, you refuse to consider it, as though it has less moment than your particular bias.
> 
> In summary, your cretinous asininity is documented by demanding that his party somehow validate his charges, even though history has done exactly that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I told you would look stupid.   What is relevant is this. I have asked PC Minion why McCarthy's own party leaders pulled him down. She has never answered that.  PC, you will answer this, or look stupid when you post.
Click to expand...


Since your post bears no resemblance to any comprehension of mine, I can only assume that you post to assuage your lonliness.

Glad to have helped.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Yep, PC Minion, you look stupid.

I have asked you dozens of times: Why did McCarthy's own party leaders pull him down?

You still dodge the issue.


----------



## PoliticalChic

JakeStarkey said:


> Yep, PC Minion, you look stupid.
> 
> I have asked you dozens of times: Why did McCarthy's own party leaders pull him down?
> 
> You still dodge the issue.



Alright...I'll help you out one more time:

Here are the two things you must remember: never write a post as dumb as this again, and Never, under any circumstances, take a sleeping pill and a laxative on 
the same night.


----------



## JakeStarkey

In other words, you look like a Minion of the wacky right, PC.

I will leave you to it tonight, Ms Columbia College Missouri, and be safe out there.

And, although you hate it, this question is not going away.  Until you are fair and balanced in your posting, this question is going to dog you.

Night Night.


----------



## Gadawg73

McCarthy claimed agents in the first espionage branch of the CIA were communists.
He called the CIA "a sinkhole of communists".
Joe McCarthy claimed the CIA was full of communists and is championed here as more than the grand show man he was.
Fucking unbelievable.


----------



## Father Time

Ok I believe I've heard a couple people here claim Mccarthy was right about *ALL* his accusations. So anyone have evidence of that? I don't think that was what's claimed in Blacklisted is it?


----------



## JakeStarkey

No, "Blacklisted" didn't claim that.  However, Evans fails in an attempt to exculpate the man's unAmerican behavior in his search for communists and whatnots.  His own party and its members pulled him down and had him censored, the Republican Party not the Democratic Party.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

I will no longer address posters who clearly did not read the book and moreover, think M Stanton Evans is Ann Coulter's pen name.







Stanton Evans spent 6 years of his life going through tens of thousands of pages of recently declassified FBI files, Congressional testimony and files released by the Russians themselves.  In return, a few posters here do little more than parrot back the talking points they learned from people supporting history's great mass murderers and they learned how to squawk really well.

It's quite despicable that fellow Americans are supportive of Stalin's infiltration of the US government so much so that even over a decade after the Russians admit to it, they still spew they hatred of the one American hero and patriot who opened the issue up to the American public.

McCarthy was correct, history's greatest mass murderers had compromised our government and fuck you if you're OK with that.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Father Time said:


> Ok I believe I've heard a couple people here claim Mccarthy was right about *ALL* his accusations. So anyone have evidence of that? I don't think that was what's claimed in Blacklisted is it?



Go read any 5 pages in the book and then we'll talk.


----------



## editec

McCarthy was scum, folks.

This revisionism some of you are into  is akin to holocaust denial.


----------



## JakeStarkey

So he spent six years creating a spin on the man that didn't exist.

Frank, only 2% of America cares about him, and they don't count.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

People who love and admire Stalin and Marxism have a problem with McCarthy.

Wow. Color me shocked.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

I see the problem!

OK. This man






said that this man






who did this millions of times






was infiltrating the US government.

It turns out that the first guy, Joe McCarthy was 100% accurate.

Does that help?


----------



## JakeStarkey

CF, come here.  Let me whisper in your ear.  *ALL OF AMERICA KNEW ABOUT THE EVILS OF COMMUNISM!  *McCarthy told America nothing that it did not know already.  

The point here is _*HOW *_he did it and _*WHY *_he did it.

No, McCarthy was not an America hero, and neither are you for defending him.


----------



## editec

People who love liars and drunks love McCarthy.

The man was a walking insult to everything our nation stands for.

The fact that he claimed to be attacking commies is nothing but smoke.

The man was attacking his own nation.

He was drunken scum and it took the GOP to take him down.


----------



## Sarah G

McCarthy's legacy of hate is cast in stone.  Ann Coulter claims this pig is a hero as well, your attempt to legitimize him is futile.


----------



## Gadawg73

G. David Schine was an American hero and patriot?
He was drafted into the military and Roy Cohn attempted to get the Army to allow his camping buddy to stay close to home the Army said no. So what does Cohn do as he admired the patriot in uniform? Cohn stated "I will wreck the Army". 
Yes, Schine worked very hard all of his life inheriting his family's fortune. With God riding shotgun he teamed with Cohn and McCarthy to fight commie pinkos after writing a Red Menace pamphlet unedited for spelling errors and full of false innuendo. It was placed next to the Bible in every hotel room Schine owned worldwide. Onward Christian soldiers!
Cohn and McCarthy publicly claimed the Army was holding Schine "hostage in an attempt to stop investigations into communists in the Army"
Cohn took the fall for McCarthy as the hearings' results placed the entire pressure tactic on him alone.
How come McCarthy never revealed who those commies were in the Army?
LOL, it gets better sports fans.


----------



## Gadawg73

editec said:


> People who love liars and drunks love McCarthy.
> 
> The man was a walking insult to everything our nation stands for.
> 
> The fact that he claimed to be attacking commies is nothing but smoke.
> 
> The man was attacking his own nation.
> 
> He was drunken scum and it took the GOP to take him down.



I agree BUT Winnie Churchill "took more out of alcohol than alcohol took out of me".


----------



## CrusaderFrank

In June 1948, 2 years before Joe McCarthy would start to ask why the Truman Administration was protecting Communist spies at US State Department, the American Left's favorite World Leader






blockaded the US and Britian's access to Berlin.  This caused the USA and the British (the Good Guys) to airlift supplies into Berlin to keep Stalin from taking control of Berlin.  The Soviet attempt to strangle Berlin ended on May 1949.

Then in Feb 1950, Joe McCarthy made his Wheeling WV speech.

In June 1950, the ChiComs gave the go ahead to attack Korea. Communist in 2 hemisphere were either at war or attempting to restart a war with the USA and yet is Joe McCarthy is accused by the American Left of a harvesting a 

*"RED SCARE"*

To review, from 1948-49 the American Left's Favorite Mass Murderer tried to start a war with the US and British over Berlin and then in June 1950, the American Left's second Favorite Mass Murderer actually did initiate a war with us.

And Stalin's Useful Idiots continue to insist that thing were great until McCarthy drummed up his false "Red Scare"

See how that works?


----------



## JakeStarkey

OK, let's do it again, Frank, because you are still posting stupidly.

CF, come here. Let me whisper in your ear. ALL OF AMERICA KNEW ABOUT THE EVILS OF COMMUNISM! McCarthy told America nothing that it did not know already.

The point here is HOW he did it and WHY he did it.

No, McCarthy was not an America hero, and neither are you for defending him.


----------



## American Horse

Gadawg73 said:


> American Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jake, none of these Coulterians can answer:
> Why was G. David Schine a "consultant" and asking most of witnesses questions behind closed doors?
> They probably didn't even know this guy before I named him. He wasn't in bimbo's book.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg, a search of this thread shows that Frank never one time mentioned the name Coulter; her name used in the context of this thread has mostly been mentioned by you.
> 
> Schine was a staffer on the committee.  Any attention to C-span vis-a-vis committee hearings (and I personally have watched plenty of them) will show staffers asking questions when careful attention to legal details are demanded. Legal staffers ask questions as stand-ins for senators, usually when they have drafted the questions and know more fully how answers lead from the substance of the questions.
> 
> Whenever the answers to questions might or will be damaging to national security, and even to personal reputations the questioning goes behind closed doors, in what is called "executive session." We saw plenty of this in hearings of Clinton/Whitewater, Cliinton/Impeachment hearings, and others over the years.
> 
> The source material that Frank made the subject of the OP was Evans" Blacklisted, not Coulter's book.  G David Schine was referred to in 24 pages and numerous times in _Blacklisted,_ and the problematic nature of his involvement was covered therein.
> You deflect.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Schine a staffer?
> He never was an employee of the government and never received a paycheck.
> Staffer? He was listed as "consultant".
> You have NO clue so give it up before I make you look very foolish also.
Click to expand...


Gadawg, why don&#8217;t you just post, with back-up instead of blowing rhetoric at posters whose posts you object to or you disagree with?  
I understand..... you simply don&#8217;t want to do the work.  
Make me look foolish?  Have at it.  

I&#8217;ll go with what I THINK you are alluding to, here, and in part that&#8217;s the popular theory that Cohn and Schine were homosexuals. You alluded to that possibility earlier in this thread I believe.

From Arthur Hermann&#8217;s-Joseph McCarthy pp - 211 
&#8220; - Cohn was twenty six, Robert Kennedy Twenty-seven. The third new member of the team, David Schine, reinforced the new PSI image of youth and aggressive vitality. At twenty-five, the son of a millionaire hotel chain and restaurant owner, David Schine was tall, blond, and slender and blessed with the dreamy-eyed good looks that, in Richard Rovere&#8217;s immortal phrase &#8220;one associated with male orchestra singers.&#8221; - &#8221;

ibid-pp-218 
&#8220; - *there is no evidence that the young [Cohn/Schine] men were ever lovers or that Schine than was anything but heterosexual*. But without a doubt Schine&#8217;s physical presence triggered a deep response in Cohn which, as time went on, bordered on obsession. - &#8221; 

[&#8220;Schine was later married to Hillevi Rombin, and was the father of a son named  Frederick&#8221;] (biography of G. David Schine - True Knowledge)

Was Schine a staffer?&#8221; That depends on the meaning of the word &#8220;staffer&#8221; doesn&#8217;t it?  In the operative sense, Schine was a staffer.

From M.Stanton Evans&#8217;-Blackballed by History - pp-450
&#8220; - Also on the *McCarthy staff* was another youthful member who would turn out to be, when all was done, the most significant of them all. This was G. David Schine, heir to a substantial fortune, graduate of Harvard, and notable young man about town in New York and Boston. Schine, [...] was twenty-five at the beginning of 1953 and had the previous year become a friend of Cohn&#8217;s.  When Cohn took over the counsel&#8217;s job for McCarthy, he brought Schine along as a volunteer consultant.   As the affluent Schine was willing to work for nothing, McCarthy had no objections to the agreement. - &#8221;

ibid - pp-468 
&#8220; - *The most notorious chapter* of the [Cohn/Schine] story was an April tour of U.S. reading centers and related posts in Europe by Cohn and committee *staffer* David Schine. - &#8221; [U.S. Information reading centers established in Europe, run at U.S. government expense, were supposedly intended to support the American view of democracy to the world.]

ibid-pp-469
&#8220; - Given the stated object of the program, it struck McCarthy, [US Senator] Mundt, and others as odd that Communist and pro-Communist writings should be profusely featured in the reading centers.  And, based on data from the State Department, the surveys of Cohn and Schine, and other analyses of the setup, profuse would seem to be an apt description.  By the Committee&#8217;s best estimates, there were on the shelves approximately 30,000 books by Red and pro-Red writers.  Included in this number were veteran Communists bosses and sometime authors Earl Browder and William Z. Foster, who of course made no secret of their Red opinions. - &#8221; 

ibid pp-475
&#8220; -  Part of the story would be told by Ben Bradlee [later famed writer for Newsweek and the Washington Post] &#8230;
As Bradlee told it, he and other Embassy staffers went out of their way to round up hostile reporters on a Paris Sunday for a merciless thrashing of Cohn and Schine.  &#8220;We weren&#8217;t five minutes into it&#8221; said Bradlee, &#8220;before [Cohn and Schine] realized it was a disaster and they realized they had been set up . . . 

&#8220;There wasn&#8217;t a question that took them seriously. not a single anything remotely like a friend in the audience . . .&#8221;   Much pleased with this, Bradlee worked with British correspondents to orchestrate a similarly angry press turnout in London. * Such were the services rendered by State Department officials to enhance the image of the U.S. abroad in the early 1950s.* And such were the conditions in which Cohn and Schine would be blamed for holding &#8220;press conferences&#8221; in fact orchestrated by our diplomats in Europe. - &#8221;





Gadawg73 said:


> G. David Schine was an American hero and patriot?
> He was drafted into the military and Roy Cohn attempted to get the Army to allow his camping buddy to stay close to home the Army said no. So what does Cohn do as he admired the patriot in uniform? Cohn stated "I will wreck the Army".
> 
> Yes, Schine worked very hard all of his life inheriting his family's fortune. With God riding shotgun he teamed with Cohn and McCarthy to fight commie pinkos after writing a Red Menace pamphlet unedited for spelling errors and full of false innuendo. It was placed next to the Bible in every hotel room Schine owned worldwide. Onward Christian soldiers!
> 
> Cohn and McCarthy publicly claimed the Army was holding Schine "hostage in an attempt to stop investigations into communists in the Army"
> Cohn took the fall for McCarthy as the hearings' results placed the entire pressure tactic on him alone.
> How come McCarthy never revealed who those commies were in the Army?
> LOL, it gets better sports fans.



Personally I would not call Schine a &#8220;hero&#8221; but I believe he would fall under the mantra of &#8220;patriot&#8221; in that he went against pressure from the government to push him into a position of non-relevance and he stood up to what today would be classified as  overwhelming pressure to back off from work, and make him a pawn. He at least, saw what needed being done and did it.

[In 1944 at the end of WWII, with Russia seen as our ally, the war against the  Dies committee [which preceded McCarthy&#8217;s], was unceasing. It reached an apogee when a precedent was set with that committee, which shows certain parallels between IT and McCarthy committee - *How to systematically remove troublesome staffers (or consultants) from doing their jobs in congressional committees*]

Blacklisted pp 543
&#8220; -  a campaign was launched to draft the [earlier Dies] committee&#8217;s top professional staffer, chief investigator Robert Stripling, into military service. Stripling then thirty-one years old, married and a father, held a key congressional job relating to security matters, and was specifically exempted from the draft by the Legislative Deferment Committee of Congress.

Notwithstanding all of which, as Stripling would relate, he was advised by his draft board that &#8220;there&#8217;s been a lot off pressure on us to get you into the Army.&#8221;  &#8213; hence classified as 1-A and a candidate for conscription.  Columnists Drew Pearson and some of his journalistic brethren then mounted a vigorous press campaign to have Stripling called to active duty.  This in fact occurred, and the ex-chief investigator would spend the next year and a half as an Army yardbird.  . . . 

The Stripling story would be repeated, _mutatis mutandis,_ in 1953, with another *staffer* for yet another anti-Red committee, and with the ever-watchful Pearson once more hovering in the background. This *staffer* was G. David Schine, pal of Roy Cohn, part-time consultant to the PSI and soon to be the most famous private in the Army.  . . . 

In context, probably the most distinctive thing about Schine was that he was the McCarthy *staffer* most eligible for being drafted, though even this was a bit of a stretch.  In 1947, he had been classified 4-F, and draft exempt because of a slipped disc in his back. In 1953, Schine was approaching his twenty-sixth birthday, much older than the average conscript of that era, still classified 4-F, and helping lay the groundwork for the probe at Monmouth.  

At this point, Drew Pearson would come back in the picture and, based on some combination of outside tips and inside sources, managed to obtain the Schine draft records.  Pearson then began another press crusade to the effect that Schine was a shirker who ought to be conscripted.  After a series of columns on this theme, the Schine case was reopened; he was classified 1-A and would enter the Army in November.  When Drew Pearson spoke, it seems, local draft boards listened. . . . 

Army Secretary Robert Stevens was of the like opinion, voiced in January 1954 to Defense official Fred Seaton. &#8220;Of course&#8221; said Stevens, &#8220;the kid [Schine] was taken at the very last minute, before he was eligible for age.  My guess would be that if he hadn&#8217;t been working for McCarthy, he probably never would have been drafted . . . &#8221; 

However it was managed, and for whatever reason, the effect of Shine&#8217;s induction was to give the Army a pressure point where influence over the McCarthy panel might at least in theory be wielded.  It also created a two-way dynamic between McCarthy and the Ike administration. . . .  - &#8221; 





Gadawg73 said:


> McCarthy claimed agents in the first espionage branch of the CIA were communists.
> &#8220;He called the CIA "a sinkhole of communists".&#8221;
> Joe McCarthy claimed the CIA was full of communists and is championed here as more than the grand show man he was.
> Fucking unbelievable.



Do you have a source/link for that comment by McCarthy other than Cord Meyer through wikki?  I don&#8217;t find it in David M. Oshinsky&#8217;s &#8220;A &#8220;Conspiracy So Immense,&#8221; nor in Arthur Hermann&#8217;s-Joseph McCarthy or &#8220;Blacklisted&#8230;&#8221;  only in Cord Meyer&#8217;s book &#8220;Facing Reality: From World Federalism to the Central Intelligence Agency.&#8221; 
Meyer and his wife Mary Pinchot Meyer were both supporters of a one world government, and E. Howard Hunt made a claim that Meyer was involved in the assassination of JFK because of the affair JFK had with his wife Mary.


----------



## JakeStarkey

McCarthy's atmosphere of unfounded hatred and persecution that affected innocent people is exactly what is being taught as unconscionable in high school and university.

PC's charade profiteth her nothing.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

American Horse said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> American Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg, a search of this thread shows that Frank never one time mentioned the name Coulter; her name used in the context of this thread has mostly been mentioned by you.
> 
> Schine was a staffer on the committee.  Any attention to C-span vis-a-vis committee hearings (and I personally have watched plenty of them) will show staffers asking questions when careful attention to legal details are demanded. Legal staffers ask questions as stand-ins for senators, usually when they have drafted the questions and know more fully how answers lead from the substance of the questions.
> 
> Whenever the answers to questions might or will be damaging to national security, and even to personal reputations the questioning goes behind closed doors, in what is called "executive session." We saw plenty of this in hearings of Clinton/Whitewater, Cliinton/Impeachment hearings, and others over the years.
> 
> The source material that Frank made the subject of the OP was Evans" Blacklisted, not Coulter's book.  G David Schine was referred to in 24 pages and numerous times in _Blacklisted,_ and the problematic nature of his involvement was covered therein.
> You deflect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Schine a staffer?
> He never was an employee of the government and never received a paycheck.
> Staffer? He was listed as "consultant".
> You have NO clue so give it up before I make you look very foolish also.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Gadawg, why dont you just post, with back-up instead of blowing rhetoric at posters whose posts you object to or you disagree with?
> I understand..... you simply dont want to do the work.
> Make me look foolish?  Have at it.
> 
> Ill go with what I THINK you are alluding to, here, and in part thats the popular theory that Cohn and Schine were homosexuals. You alluded to that possibility earlier in this thread I believe.
> 
> From Arthur Hermanns-Joseph McCarthy pp - 211
>  - Cohn was twenty six, Robert Kennedy Twenty-seven. The third new member of the team, David Schine, reinforced the new PSI image of youth and aggressive vitality. At twenty-five, the son of a millionaire hotel chain and restaurant owner, David Schine was tall, blond, and slender and blessed with the dreamy-eyed good looks that, in Richard Roveres immortal phrase one associated with male orchestra singers. - 
> 
> ibid-pp-218
>  - *there is no evidence that the young [Cohn/Schine] men were ever lovers or that Schine than was anything but heterosexual*. But without a doubt Schines physical presence triggered a deep response in Cohn which, as time went on, bordered on obsession. - 
> 
> [Schine was later married to Hillevi Rombin, and was the father of a son named  Frederick] (biography of G. David Schine - True Knowledge)
> 
> Was Schine a staffer? That depends on the meaning of the word staffer doesnt it?  In the operative sense, Schine was a staffer.
> 
> From M.Stanton Evans-Blackballed by History - pp-450
>  - Also on the *McCarthy staff* was another youthful member who would turn out to be, when all was done, the most significant of them all. This was G. David Schine, heir to a substantial fortune, graduate of Harvard, and notable young man about town in New York and Boston. Schine, [...] was twenty-five at the beginning of 1953 and had the previous year become a friend of Cohns.  When Cohn took over the counsels job for McCarthy, he brought Schine along as a volunteer consultant.   As the affluent Schine was willing to work for nothing, McCarthy had no objections to the agreement. - 
> 
> ibid - pp-468
>  - *The most notorious chapter* of the [Cohn/Schine] story was an April tour of U.S. reading centers and related posts in Europe by Cohn and committee *staffer* David Schine. -  [U.S. Information reading centers established in Europe, run at U.S. government expense, were supposedly intended to support the American view of democracy to the world.]
> 
> ibid-pp-469
>  - Given the stated object of the program, it struck McCarthy, [US Senator] Mundt, and others as odd that Communist and pro-Communist writings should be profusely featured in the reading centers.  And, based on data from the State Department, the surveys of Cohn and Schine, and other analyses of the setup, profuse would seem to be an apt description.  By the Committees best estimates, there were on the shelves approximately 30,000 books by Red and pro-Red writers.  Included in this number were veteran Communists bosses and sometime authors Earl Browder and William Z. Foster, who of course made no secret of their Red opinions. - 
> 
> ibid pp-475
>  -  Part of the story would be told by Ben Bradlee [later famed writer for Newsweek and the Washington Post]
> As Bradlee told it, he and other Embassy staffers went out of their way to round up hostile reporters on a Paris Sunday for a merciless thrashing of Cohn and Schine.  We werent five minutes into it said Bradlee, before [Cohn and Schine] realized it was a disaster and they realized they had been set up . . .
> 
> There wasnt a question that took them seriously. not a single anything remotely like a friend in the audience . . .   Much pleased with this, Bradlee worked with British correspondents to orchestrate a similarly angry press turnout in London. * Such were the services rendered by State Department officials to enhance the image of the U.S. abroad in the early 1950s.* And such were the conditions in which Cohn and Schine would be blamed for holding press conferences in fact orchestrated by our diplomats in Europe. - 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> G. David Schine was an American hero and patriot?
> He was drafted into the military and Roy Cohn attempted to get the Army to allow his camping buddy to stay close to home the Army said no. So what does Cohn do as he admired the patriot in uniform? Cohn stated "I will wreck the Army".
> 
> Yes, Schine worked very hard all of his life inheriting his family's fortune. With God riding shotgun he teamed with Cohn and McCarthy to fight commie pinkos after writing a Red Menace pamphlet unedited for spelling errors and full of false innuendo. It was placed next to the Bible in every hotel room Schine owned worldwide. Onward Christian soldiers!
> 
> Cohn and McCarthy publicly claimed the Army was holding Schine "hostage in an attempt to stop investigations into communists in the Army"
> Cohn took the fall for McCarthy as the hearings' results placed the entire pressure tactic on him alone.
> How come McCarthy never revealed who those commies were in the Army?
> LOL, it gets better sports fans.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Personally I would not call Schine a hero but I believe he would fall under the mantra of patriot in that he went against pressure from the government to push him into a position of non-relevance and he stood up to what today would be classified as  overwhelming pressure to back off from work, and make him a pawn. He at least, saw what needed being done and did it.
> 
> [In 1944 at the end of WWII, with Russia seen as our ally, the war against the  Dies committee [which preceded McCarthys], was unceasing. It reached an apogee when a precedent was set with that committee, which shows certain parallels between IT and McCarthy committee - *How to systematically remove troublesome staffers (or consultants) from doing their jobs in congressional committees*]
> 
> Blacklisted pp 543
>  -  a campaign was launched to draft the [earlier Dies] committees top professional staffer, chief investigator Robert Stripling, into military service. Stripling then thirty-one years old, married and a father, held a key congressional job relating to security matters, and was specifically exempted from the draft by the Legislative Deferment Committee of Congress.
> 
> Notwithstanding all of which, as Stripling would relate, he was advised by his draft board that theres been a lot off pressure on us to get you into the Army.  &#8213; hence classified as 1-A and a candidate for conscription.  Columnists Drew Pearson and some of his journalistic brethren then mounted a vigorous press campaign to have Stripling called to active duty.  This in fact occurred, and the ex-chief investigator would spend the next year and a half as an Army yardbird.  . . .
> 
> The Stripling story would be repeated, _mutatis mutandis,_ in 1953, with another *staffer* for yet another anti-Red committee, and with the ever-watchful Pearson once more hovering in the background. This *staffer* was G. David Schine, pal of Roy Cohn, part-time consultant to the PSI and soon to be the most famous private in the Army.  . . .
> 
> In context, probably the most distinctive thing about Schine was that he was the McCarthy *staffer* most eligible for being drafted, though even this was a bit of a stretch.  In 1947, he had been classified 4-F, and draft exempt because of a slipped disc in his back. In 1953, Schine was approaching his twenty-sixth birthday, much older than the average conscript of that era, still classified 4-F, and helping lay the groundwork for the probe at Monmouth.
> 
> At this point, Drew Pearson would come back in the picture and, based on some combination of outside tips and inside sources, managed to obtain the Schine draft records.  Pearson then began another press crusade to the effect that Schine was a shirker who ought to be conscripted.  After a series of columns on this theme, the Schine case was reopened; he was classified 1-A and would enter the Army in November.  When Drew Pearson spoke, it seems, local draft boards listened. . . .
> 
> Army Secretary Robert Stevens was of the like opinion, voiced in January 1954 to Defense official Fred Seaton. Of course said Stevens, the kid [Schine] was taken at the very last minute, before he was eligible for age.  My guess would be that if he hadnt been working for McCarthy, he probably never would have been drafted . . . 
> 
> However it was managed, and for whatever reason, the effect of Shines induction was to give the Army a pressure point where influence over the McCarthy panel might at least in theory be wielded.  It also created a two-way dynamic between McCarthy and the Ike administration. . . .  - 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> McCarthy claimed agents in the first espionage branch of the CIA were communists.
> He called the CIA "a sinkhole of communists".
> Joe McCarthy claimed the CIA was full of communists and is championed here as more than the grand show man he was.
> Fucking unbelievable.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Do you have a source/link for that comment by McCarthy other than Cord Meyer through wikki?  I dont find it in David M. Oshinskys A Conspiracy So Immense, nor in Arthur Hermanns-Joseph McCarthy or Blacklisted  only in Cord Meyers book Facing Reality: From World Federalism to the Central Intelligence Agency.
> Meyer and his wife Mary Pinchot Meyer were both supporters of a one world government, and E. Howard Hunt made a claim that Meyer was involved in the assassination of JFK because of the affair JFK had with his wife Mary.
Click to expand...


Thank you for that.

The Stalin Supporters won't read it, but thank you.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Amazing how Useful Idiots can't even tell when they've outlived their usefulness.

The USSR admitted McCarthy was correct and declassified files confirm it.

But keep telling us how Uncle Joe was a good guy.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Frank, you continue to lie.  *No one has said there were no communists in government.  The atmosphere of persecution and hatred is why his own party pulled him down. * That is going to be my post to any attempt to rehabilitation of the nonrehabitable McCarthy.

Neither you nor Ms. Columbia College have ever been able to 'refudiate' it.  Why?  Because the statement is correct.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Gadawg73 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Frank, my facts come from the agents in the field.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're full of crap and ignorant to boot
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Want to wager 10K Frank? One of my old partners in the early 80s was a former FBI agent from that era.
> You read books, I am in the intelligence business for 32 years Frank. I own a fully top tier licensed detective agency for 32 years.
> NO intelligence organization wants information spread around in Washington in front of cameras.
> That is just common sense Frank. Do we do that now? Have hearings about the intelligence we conduct on TV?
> Only a naive gullible book buying ideologue believes that.
> That would be you. Here's your sign.
Click to expand...


Why do leftists persist in believing that "My proof is that I just KNOW!  I can't refute your substantiation, and I can't provide any of my own, but I can say that I have life experience, and I WIN!!" actually works?

If your "proof from life experience" was worth the fetid air it takes you to spout it, you'd be able to produce something to back it up and contradict the mountains of actual, verifiable evidence supporting Frank.  But you can't, because it isn't.  It's just another loser on the Internet making empty claims.  I'll bet you have a nine-inch penis, too.


----------



## JakeStarkey

CeCelie1200, you have never been able to disprove the atmosphere of hatred and persecution of innocent folks by McCarthy and his minions.  Now we have unconscionable reactionaries like you trying to rehabilitate the monster.

So I will fly your flag for you, because it represents what you post.


----------



## Cecilie1200

American Horse said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jake, none of these Coulterians can answer:
> Why was G. David Schine a "consultant" and asking most of witnesses questions behind closed doors?
> They probably didn't even know this guy before I named him. He wasn't in bimbo's book.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg, a search of this thread shows that Frank never one time mentioned the name Coulter; her name used in the context of this thread has mostly been mentioned by you.
> 
> Schine was a staffer on the committee.  Any attention to C-span vis-a-vis committee hearings (and I personally have watched plenty of them) will show staffers asking questions when careful attention to legal details are demanded. Legal staffers ask questions as stand-ins for senators, usually when they have drafted the questions and know more fully how answers lead from the substance of the questions.
> 
> Whenever the answers to questions might or will be damaging to national security, and even to personal reputations the questioning goes behind closed doors, in what is called "executive session." We saw plenty of this in hearings of Clinton/Whitewater, Cliinton/Impeachment hearings, and others over the years.
> 
> The source material that Frank made the subject of the OP was Evans" Blacklisted, not Coulter's book.  G David Schine was referred to in 24 pages and numerous times in _Blacklisted,_ and the problematic nature of his involvement was covered therein.
> You deflect.
Click to expand...


And for the record, Schine WAS mentioned quite a bit in Ann Coulter's book.  So I guess the only "bimbo" around here is Gadawg, who likes to bloviate about books he's never read, and thinks people on this board would take his word for the sky being blue, let alone believe that he was "in intelligence" and that his word for it constitutes unshakable proof.


----------



## Cecilie1200

elvis said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Horsecrap, you two.  You have posted nothing of real content.
> 
> Can you refute: (1) The man was an alcoholic.  (2) The man created at an atmosphere of unbalanced persecution of many Americans who were innocent of the charges.  (3) The man was pulled down by his own party.
> 
> It is (3) you keep ignoring so that will be the one I will keep posting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How is his alcoholism relevant?
Click to expand...


Hell, if I'd been hounded the way McCarthy was just for trying to do my job and be a patriot, I'd probably drink, too.  So the fuck what?

(2) has been refuted so profoundly throughout this thread that Jake has had to resort to tasering himself in the forehead repeatedly to keep from absorbing and remembering any of the facts.

(3) is like (1):  it has fuck-all to do with the important question:  WERE THERE COMMUNISTS IN THE STATE DEPARTMENT?!


----------



## JakeStarkey

CeCelie1200, are you Mrs. Crusader Frank?  *No one has said there were no communists in government. The atmosphere of persecution and hatred is why his own party pulled him down*.  Nothing you say can even challenge the truth of that.


----------



## Cecilie1200

CrusaderFrank said:


> I see the problem!
> 
> OK. This man
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> said that this man
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> who did this millions of times
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> was infiltrating the US government.
> 
> It turns out that the first guy, Joe McCarthy was 100% accurate.
> 
> Does that help?



Maybe next time, you should do it in crayon.  Those are awfully grown-up letters for some of our posters to comprehend.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Cecilie1200 said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> You're full of crap and ignorant to boot
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Want to wager 10K Frank? One of my old partners in the early 80s was a former FBI agent from that era.
> You read books, I am in the intelligence business for 32 years Frank. I own a fully top tier licensed detective agency for 32 years.
> NO intelligence organization wants information spread around in Washington in front of cameras.
> That is just common sense Frank. Do we do that now? Have hearings about the intelligence we conduct on TV?
> Only a naive gullible book buying ideologue believes that.
> That would be you. Here's your sign.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why do leftists persist in believing that "My proof is that I just KNOW!  I can't refute your substantiation, and I can't provide any of my own, but I can say that I have life experience, and I WIN!!" actually works?
> 
> If your "proof from life experience" was worth the fetid air it takes you to spout it, you'd be able to produce something to back it up and contradict the mountains of actual, verifiable evidence supporting Frank.  But you can't, because it isn't.  It's just another loser on the Internet making empty claims.  I'll bet you have a nine-inch penis, too.
Click to expand...


Internet Ruler

|---1---2--4-6-1012


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Cecilie1200 said:


> American Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jake, none of these Coulterians can answer:
> Why was G. David Schine a "consultant" and asking most of witnesses questions behind closed doors?
> They probably didn't even know this guy before I named him. He wasn't in bimbo's book.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg, a search of this thread shows that Frank never one time mentioned the name Coulter; her name used in the context of this thread has mostly been mentioned by you.
> 
> Schine was a staffer on the committee.  Any attention to C-span vis-a-vis committee hearings (and I personally have watched plenty of them) will show staffers asking questions when careful attention to legal details are demanded. Legal staffers ask questions as stand-ins for senators, usually when they have drafted the questions and know more fully how answers lead from the substance of the questions.
> 
> Whenever the answers to questions might or will be damaging to national security, and even to personal reputations the questioning goes behind closed doors, in what is called "executive session." We saw plenty of this in hearings of Clinton/Whitewater, Cliinton/Impeachment hearings, and others over the years.
> 
> The source material that Frank made the subject of the OP was Evans" Blacklisted, not Coulter's book.  G David Schine was referred to in 24 pages and numerous times in _Blacklisted,_ and the problematic nature of his involvement was covered therein.
> You deflect.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And for the record, Schine WAS mentioned quite a bit in Ann Coulter's book.  So I guess the only "bimbo" around here is Gadawg, who likes to bloviate about books he's never read, and thinks people on this board would take his word for the sky being blue, let alone believe that he was "in intelligence" and that his word for it constitutes unshakable proof.
Click to expand...


Compared to 1 Billion people living under Communism, tens of million murdered, a real life shooting war in Asia and a potential restart of WWII, Schine was a pimple on the world's ass


----------



## JakeStarkey

CrusaderFrank and Mrs.CrusaderFrank continue to flail and wail, but still miss the point.

1.  Everyone knew communissts were in government, and Joe was doing nothing noteworthy for doing that.  It was his job.

2.  Joe created a deliberate atmosphere of hatred and suspicion in which innocent people were injured, and which reminded so  many of the Nazi propaganda machines.

3.  The biggie: neither CF or MrsCF will admit that it was the Republican Party that tore Joe for #2.

On that alone, the OP is epic fail.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

LOL

Everyone "Knew" Communists were in government.  LOL

Yes, but see, the shocker was that they were in the* US* government making policy that benefited the ChiComs and Moscow and AFTER the Russians tried to restart a war in Europe.

Yeah, after that whole Berlin airlift thingy, the US and Stalin were cool.

LOL.


----------



## HUGGY

What's your end game Frankie?   What do you hope to achieve?  Another bust on Mt Rushmore?  Change the name of the Lincoln Memorial?  Name a Navy boat after him?...a library?...a post office?

You have not convinced more than one or two people in almost 900 posts.  No one wants to read the book.  We just don't care.  I mean how much of a hero are we all supposed to buy?
More than Sully?  More than the guy that saved all those plane crash people in the frozen Potomac?  For the love of GOD!!!  Name your price!!!! Before I am forced to plunge ice picks in my eyes!!!!


----------



## CrusaderFrank

End game?

Is to try to educate the ignorant so it will never end


----------



## Gadawg73

American Horse said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> American Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg, a search of this thread shows that Frank never one time mentioned the name Coulter; her name used in the context of this thread has mostly been mentioned by you.
> 
> Schine was a staffer on the committee.  Any attention to C-span vis-a-vis committee hearings (and I personally have watched plenty of them) will show staffers asking questions when careful attention to legal details are demanded. Legal staffers ask questions as stand-ins for senators, usually when they have drafted the questions and know more fully how answers lead from the substance of the questions.
> 
> Whenever the answers to questions might or will be damaging to national security, and even to personal reputations the questioning goes behind closed doors, in what is called "executive session." We saw plenty of this in hearings of Clinton/Whitewater, Cliinton/Impeachment hearings, and others over the years.
> 
> The source material that Frank made the subject of the OP was Evans" Blacklisted, not Coulter's book.  G David Schine was referred to in 24 pages and numerous times in _Blacklisted,_ and the problematic nature of his involvement was covered therein.
> You deflect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Schine a staffer?
> He never was an employee of the government and never received a paycheck.
> Staffer? He was listed as "consultant".
> You have NO clue so give it up before I make you look very foolish also.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Gadawg, why dont you just post, with back-up instead of blowing rhetoric at posters whose posts you object to or you disagree with?
> I understand..... you simply dont want to do the work.
> Make me look foolish?  Have at it.
> 
> Ill go with what I THINK you are alluding to, here, and in part thats the popular theory that Cohn and Schine were homosexuals. You alluded to that possibility earlier in this thread I believe.
> 
> From Arthur Hermanns-Joseph McCarthy pp - 211
>  - Cohn was twenty six, Robert Kennedy Twenty-seven. The third new member of the team, David Schine, reinforced the new PSI image of youth and aggressive vitality. At twenty-five, the son of a millionaire hotel chain and restaurant owner, David Schine was tall, blond, and slender and blessed with the dreamy-eyed good looks that, in Richard Roveres immortal phrase one associated with male orchestra singers. - 
> 
> ibid-pp-218
>  - *there is no evidence that the young [Cohn/Schine] men were ever lovers or that Schine than was anything but heterosexual*. But without a doubt Schines physical presence triggered a deep response in Cohn which, as time went on, bordered on obsession. - 
> 
> [Schine was later married to Hillevi Rombin, and was the father of a son named  Frederick] (biography of G. David Schine - True Knowledge)
> 
> Was Schine a staffer? That depends on the meaning of the word staffer doesnt it?  In the operative sense, Schine was a staffer.
> 
> From M.Stanton Evans-Blackballed by History - pp-450
>  - Also on the *McCarthy staff* was another youthful member who would turn out to be, when all was done, the most significant of them all. This was G. David Schine, heir to a substantial fortune, graduate of Harvard, and notable young man about town in New York and Boston. Schine, [...] was twenty-five at the beginning of 1953 and had the previous year become a friend of Cohns.  When Cohn took over the counsels job for McCarthy, he brought Schine along as a volunteer consultant.   As the affluent Schine was willing to work for nothing, McCarthy had no objections to the agreement. - 
> 
> ibid - pp-468
>  - *The most notorious chapter* of the [Cohn/Schine] story was an April tour of U.S. reading centers and related posts in Europe by Cohn and committee *staffer* David Schine. -  [U.S. Information reading centers established in Europe, run at U.S. government expense, were supposedly intended to support the American view of democracy to the world.]
> 
> ibid-pp-469
>  - Given the stated object of the program, it struck McCarthy, [US Senator] Mundt, and others as odd that Communist and pro-Communist writings should be profusely featured in the reading centers.  And, based on data from the State Department, the surveys of Cohn and Schine, and other analyses of the setup, profuse would seem to be an apt description.  By the Committees best estimates, there were on the shelves approximately 30,000 books by Red and pro-Red writers.  Included in this number were veteran Communists bosses and sometime authors Earl Browder and William Z. Foster, who of course made no secret of their Red opinions. - 
> 
> ibid pp-475
>  -  Part of the story would be told by Ben Bradlee [later famed writer for Newsweek and the Washington Post]
> As Bradlee told it, he and other Embassy staffers went out of their way to round up hostile reporters on a Paris Sunday for a merciless thrashing of Cohn and Schine.  We werent five minutes into it said Bradlee, before [Cohn and Schine] realized it was a disaster and they realized they had been set up . . .
> 
> There wasnt a question that took them seriously. not a single anything remotely like a friend in the audience . . .   Much pleased with this, Bradlee worked with British correspondents to orchestrate a similarly angry press turnout in London. * Such were the services rendered by State Department officials to enhance the image of the U.S. abroad in the early 1950s.* And such were the conditions in which Cohn and Schine would be blamed for holding press conferences in fact orchestrated by our diplomats in Europe. - 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> G. David Schine was an American hero and patriot?
> He was drafted into the military and Roy Cohn attempted to get the Army to allow his camping buddy to stay close to home the Army said no. So what does Cohn do as he admired the patriot in uniform? Cohn stated "I will wreck the Army".
> 
> Yes, Schine worked very hard all of his life inheriting his family's fortune. With God riding shotgun he teamed with Cohn and McCarthy to fight commie pinkos after writing a Red Menace pamphlet unedited for spelling errors and full of false innuendo. It was placed next to the Bible in every hotel room Schine owned worldwide. Onward Christian soldiers!
> 
> Cohn and McCarthy publicly claimed the Army was holding Schine "hostage in an attempt to stop investigations into communists in the Army"
> Cohn took the fall for McCarthy as the hearings' results placed the entire pressure tactic on him alone.
> How come McCarthy never revealed who those commies were in the Army?
> LOL, it gets better sports fans.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Personally I would not call Schine a hero but I believe he would fall under the mantra of patriot in that he went against pressure from the government to push him into a position of non-relevance and he stood up to what today would be classified as  overwhelming pressure to back off from work, and make him a pawn. He at least, saw what needed being done and did it.
> 
> [In 1944 at the end of WWII, with Russia seen as our ally, the war against the  Dies committee [which preceded McCarthys], was unceasing. It reached an apogee when a precedent was set with that committee, which shows certain parallels between IT and McCarthy committee - *How to systematically remove troublesome staffers (or consultants) from doing their jobs in congressional committees*]
> 
> Blacklisted pp 543
>  -  a campaign was launched to draft the [earlier Dies] committees top professional staffer, chief investigator Robert Stripling, into military service. Stripling then thirty-one years old, married and a father, held a key congressional job relating to security matters, and was specifically exempted from the draft by the Legislative Deferment Committee of Congress.
> 
> Notwithstanding all of which, as Stripling would relate, he was advised by his draft board that theres been a lot off pressure on us to get you into the Army.  &#8213; hence classified as 1-A and a candidate for conscription.  Columnists Drew Pearson and some of his journalistic brethren then mounted a vigorous press campaign to have Stripling called to active duty.  This in fact occurred, and the ex-chief investigator would spend the next year and a half as an Army yardbird.  . . .
> 
> The Stripling story would be repeated, _mutatis mutandis,_ in 1953, with another *staffer* for yet another anti-Red committee, and with the ever-watchful Pearson once more hovering in the background. This *staffer* was G. David Schine, pal of Roy Cohn, part-time consultant to the PSI and soon to be the most famous private in the Army.  . . .
> 
> In context, probably the most distinctive thing about Schine was that he was the McCarthy *staffer* most eligible for being drafted, though even this was a bit of a stretch.  In 1947, he had been classified 4-F, and draft exempt because of a slipped disc in his back. In 1953, Schine was approaching his twenty-sixth birthday, much older than the average conscript of that era, still classified 4-F, and helping lay the groundwork for the probe at Monmouth.
> 
> At this point, Drew Pearson would come back in the picture and, based on some combination of outside tips and inside sources, managed to obtain the Schine draft records.  Pearson then began another press crusade to the effect that Schine was a shirker who ought to be conscripted.  After a series of columns on this theme, the Schine case was reopened; he was classified 1-A and would enter the Army in November.  When Drew Pearson spoke, it seems, local draft boards listened. . . .
> 
> Army Secretary Robert Stevens was of the like opinion, voiced in January 1954 to Defense official Fred Seaton. Of course said Stevens, the kid [Schine] was taken at the very last minute, before he was eligible for age.  My guess would be that if he hadnt been working for McCarthy, he probably never would have been drafted . . . 
> 
> However it was managed, and for whatever reason, the effect of Shines induction was to give the Army a pressure point where influence over the McCarthy panel might at least in theory be wielded.  It also created a two-way dynamic between McCarthy and the Ike administration. . . .  - 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> McCarthy claimed agents in the first espionage branch of the CIA were communists.
> He called the CIA "a sinkhole of communists".
> Joe McCarthy claimed the CIA was full of communists and is championed here as more than the grand show man he was.
> Fucking unbelievable.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Do you have a source/link for that comment by McCarthy other than Cord Meyer through wikki?  I dont find it in David M. Oshinskys A Conspiracy So Immense, nor in Arthur Hermanns-Joseph McCarthy or Blacklisted  only in Cord Meyers book Facing Reality: From World Federalism to the Central Intelligence Agency.
> Meyer and his wife Mary Pinchot Meyer were both supporters of a one world government, and E. Howard Hunt made a claim that Meyer was involved in the assassination of JFK because of the affair JFK had with his wife Mary.
Click to expand...


I could care less if someone is homosexual.
CIA full of communists?
Howard Hunt comment?
It is getting DEEP.


----------



## Gadawg73

CrusaderFrank said:


> I will no longer address posters who clearly did not read the book and moreover, think M Stanton Evans is Ann Coulter's pen name.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stanton Evans spent 6 years of his life going through tens of thousands of pages of recently declassified FBI files, Congressional testimony and files released by the Russians themselves.  In return, a few posters here do little more than parrot back the talking points they learned from people supporting history's great mass murderers and they learned how to squawk really well.
> 
> It's quite despicable that fellow Americans are supportive of Stalin's infiltration of the US government so much so that even over a decade after the Russians admit to it, they still spew they hatred of the one American hero and patriot who opened the issue up to the American public.
> 
> McCarthy was correct, history's greatest mass murderers had compromised our government and fuck you if you're OK with that.



The Russians are our friends now. They let us look at all of their intelligence. What they say and showed us is all true.
The Russians are no longer our enemy, do not spy on us anymore and they no longer use disinformation and counter intelligence. They are our partners against KAOS.


----------



## editec

That drunken piece of shit accused IKE of being a Commie symnpathizer.

Cru is taking his plays directly from the  McCarthy handbook of advanced trollery, here.


----------



## JakeStarkey

CF and PC simply have an epic fail if their end game is to convince any of us that Joe was a worthy American.


----------



## Gadawg73

editec said:


> That drunken piece of shit accused IKE of being a Commie symnpathizer.
> 
> Cru is taking his plays directly from the  McCarthy handbook of advanced trollery, here.



I agree but do not care if someone is a drunk or homosexual or a homosexual drunk.
Roy Cohn died of AIDS but it wasn't his homosexuality that caused him to be a terrible person. At one time Cohn had more civil judgments against him than any other individual in New York city. All for civil non payment of rent, loans, etc. He was the king of lease after that. He was a life long crook. Brilliant attorney but dishonest to the core.
I have known many like that.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

To review, in Feb 1950, this man 






said that this man






one of histories greatest Mass Murderers






had his loyalists at the US State Department and McCarthy wanted the US Congress to investigate

The American Left






howled and accused McCarthy of drumming up a Red Scare and succeeded at their Fear Mongering and distortion of the record until two things happened, 

the American Left lost their media monopoly and then in the mid 1990's the Russians themselves admitted McCarthy was correct


----------



## American Horse

editec said:


> That drunken piece of shit accused IKE of being a Commie symnpathizer.
> <SNIP>



What is your source for that?


----------



## JakeStarkey

I did not find any direct evidence of McCarthy accusing Eisenhower of being a communist dupe.  Robert Welch of the John Birch Society, the society now witnessing a re-emergence in these Tea Party days, accused Eisenhower of such failing, along with Truman and FDR.  "Welch believed that Franklin D. Roosevelt, Harry S. Truman, and Dwight Eisenhower, were part of a communist conspiracy. Welch sent out a letter claiming that President Eisenhower was a 'conscious, dedicated agent of the Communist Conspiracy'. In 1956 Welch wrote that other top government officials such as John Foster Dulles and Allan W. Dulles were 'communist tools'". Robert W. Welch

The following from conservapedia.com is instructive: "He [Tail Gunner Joey] was a loner who lurched from issue to issue, misled by the enormous media publicity into believing that a one-man crusade was possible in a an increasingly well-educated complex society honeycombed with local, regional and national organizations. By operating within the Republican party apparatus he lost the opportunity to create an independent grass roots political crusade in the style of Teddy Roosevelt, Huey Long, or Ross Perot. He never launched his own magazine or radio show or formed alliances with publishers who agreed with him. McCarthy&#8217;s strained relations with Senate colleagues created a trapdoor. It was sprung after many Republicans realized that he had shifted the attack away from the Democrats. What use was his slogan &#8220;20 Years of Treason&#8221; once Eisenhower was in office? McCarthy&#8217;s answer was &#8220;21 Years of Treason!&#8221; Eisenhower&#8217;s supporters could no longer tolerate such a loose cannon, and as McCarthy unwisely shifted his attacks to Eisenhower&#8217;s beloved Army, his cause was doomed. While many Americans distrusted Ivy League, striped pants diplomats, soldiers were held in high regard; McCarthy&#8217;s charges of subversion were flimsy (*one Communist dentist had been automatically promoted*); he sabotaged his own reputation by finagling favors for an aide who had been drafted. The televised hearings proved fatal to an ill-prepared bully. After the Democrats regained control of Congress in the 1954 the censure motion carried, 67-22. McCarthy&#8217;s appeal, so widespread yet superficial, evaporated overnight and the Senator faded into the shadows. " Joseph McCarthy - Conservapedia


----------



## CrusaderFrank

JakeStarkey said:


> OK, let's do it again, Frank, because you are still posting stupidly.
> 
> CF, come here. Let me whisper in your ear. ALL OF AMERICA KNEW ABOUT THE EVILS OF COMMUNISM! McCarthy told America nothing that it did not know already.
> 
> The point here is HOW he did it and WHY he did it.
> 
> No, McCarthy was not an America hero, and neither are you for defending him.



Again, you choose to remain ignorant as is your choice.

All of America, except the American Communists and their Democrat Loyalists knew the evils of Communism.  The Democrats called McCarthy a Liar and had a Senate investigation that backed up their "assertion"

You Lose!

Again and again!  You Lose!


----------



## Father Time

CrusaderFrank said:


> To review, in Feb 1950, this man
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> said that this man
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> one of histories greatest Mass Murderers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> had his loyalists at the US State Department and McCarthy wanted the US Congress to investigate
> 
> The American Left
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> howled and accused McCarthy of drumming up a Red Scare and succeeded at their Fear Mongering and distortion of the record until two things happened,
> 
> the American Left lost their media monopoly and then in the mid 1990's the Russians themselves admitted McCarthy was correct



Venona didn't back up all of Mccarthy's accusations.

Return to Responses, Reflections and Occasional Papers // Return to Historical Writings


----------



## JakeStarkey

Thank you, Father Time.  Thus what the rational posters have been saying here steadily (McCarthy was telling folks what was already known that poisoned American society and made McCarthy a pariah even unto today) has been accurate.  What PC and CF have been alleging (McCarthy is an American hero) has not only been false but knowingly false.  Thus, they are engaged in propaganda disinformation, not genuine research and study.

For shame.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

LOL What a bunch of Stalin Fluffers! 

Now you're saying that Venona actually did back up McCarthy but because some of the people US State wanted to look at turn up on FBI files instead of Venona...what? You still don't see how you reflexively leap to the defense of Stalin?

It's so sick the lenghts you Leftists go to to defend your Uncle Joe.


----------



## HUGGY

Well Frankie ......you and P Chicklets have convinced about 2 people in four months.  That's not a lot of progress.  Your propaganda is weak.  Have you considered Hypnosis?  LSD?  Subliminal?  Torture?


----------



## Father Time

CrusaderFrank said:


> LOL What a bunch of Stalin Fluffers!
> 
> Now you're saying that Venona actually did back up McCarthy but because some of the people US State wanted to look at turn up on FBI files instead of Venona...what? You still don't see how you reflexively leap to the defense of Stalin?
> 
> It's so sick the lenghts you Leftists go to to defend your Uncle Joe.



You said Venona proved him right, it did but in less than half the cases. So to say it proved him correct was misleading.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Father Time said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> LOL What a bunch of Stalin Fluffers!
> 
> Now you're saying that Venona actually did back up McCarthy but because some of the people US State wanted to look at turn up on FBI files instead of Venona...what? You still don't see how you reflexively leap to the defense of Stalin?
> 
> It's so sick the lenghts you Leftists go to to defend your Uncle Joe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You said Venona proved him right, it did but in less than half the cases. So to say it proved him correct was misleading.
Click to expand...


No, not at all. 

Venona dealt with people in DIRECT contact with Moscow. The State Department complied its own list of Communist and suspected Communist and Communist Loyalists, so you could not expect there to be a 100% match between the State Dept List and Venona.

Also, just take a minute and see who was on Venona and what their job was for the US government.

It's frightening!


----------



## CrusaderFrank

HUGGY said:


> Well Frankie ......you and P Chicklets have convinced about 2 people in four months.  That's not a lot of progress.  Your propaganda is weak.  Have you considered Hypnosis?  LSD?  Subliminal?  Torture?



I'm up against 65 years of indoctrination.

I'm up against people who would fight each other to take a bullet for Uncle Joe

Even after the USSR admitted to spying, I still have USSR defenders telling me how wrong McCarthy was.  

It has more to do with how effective the Communists were at programming their Useful Idiots than my effectiveness at deprogramming.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Is Palin doing Frank?  I swear: the OP is that McCarthy was American patriot and hero.

Now he was not, period.  Any who assert it are doing it for false flag reasons.

One, true Americans must not support this nonsense, because we sure don't see any great mobs demanding "justice" for "tail gunner Joe."  Nor should they.

Two, Joe said nothing that other Americans were saying, in HUAC and elsewhere.

Three, without any further doubt or any further need for discussion, Joe deliberately created an atmosphere of evil that persecuted and punished the innocent along with the guilty.

Fourth, they keep ignoring that his own Republican party leadership tore him down.

Finally, not once has PC or CF or even CeCelie been able to counter with worth any of these points

Since the OP was epic fail many pages ago, now where he are witnessing the mere mental masturbation of some wack far right reactionaries who are pretending they are adding 'nuance' to American history.  Guys, the act may feel good to you, but like all masturbation for fun, it is sterile.

It's so sick the lengths you reactionary right wack wing nuts go to to defend your Uncle Joe McCarthy.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Again, I will no longer directly address people who remain willfully ignorant and may be Communist sympathizers.

I've said before that McCarthy stepped onto the World Stage, 6 short months after the American Left's Favorite Mass Murderer Josef Stalin, tried to take control of Berlin and only 4 months after his Wheeling WV Speech the Americans Left's other Favorite Mass Murderer, Chairman Mao, started a real life shooting war killing Americans in Korea.

That's the background of the times.

That's the Evil McCarthy railed against.


----------



## JakeStarkey

It's so sick the lengths you reactionary right wack wing nuts go to to defend your Uncle Joe McCarthy.


----------



## PoliticalChic

HUGGY said:


> Well Frankie ......you and P Chicklets have convinced about 2 people in four months.  That's not a lot of progress.  Your propaganda is weak.  Have you considered Hypnosis?  LSD?  Subliminal?  Torture?



First of all, Huggy, don't be so insecure...you're worried that folks might realize that you're averse to education?

Second, I have to wonder about your calculations, as some 8.4 times as many folks have read CF's thread as responded to it....so you really have no way of knowing how many have had their eyes opened..pravda?

Oh...and Happy New Year!


----------



## JakeStarkey

We all know PC is poorly educated or she is an incredibly poor result of the education she received.

We do know she is a poor propagandist and a worse writer.

But we will bear with her loony tunes . . . they are amusing.


----------



## Mr Natural

CrusaderFrank said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well Frankie ......you and P Chicklets have convinced about 2 people in four months.  That's not a lot of progress.  Your propaganda is weak.  Have you considered Hypnosis?  LSD?  Subliminal?  Torture?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *I'm up against 65 years of indoctrination.*I'm up against people who would fight each other to take a bullet for Uncle Joe
> 
> Even after the USSR admitted to spying, I still have USSR defenders telling me how wrong McCarthy was.
> 
> It has more to do with how effective the Communists were at programming their Useful Idiots than my effectiveness at deprogramming.
Click to expand...



Sixty-five years?

What the fuck are they waiting for?


----------



## Gadawg73

PoliticalChic said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well Frankie ......you and P Chicklets have convinced about 2 people in four months.  That's not a lot of progress.  Your propaganda is weak.  Have you considered Hypnosis?  LSD?  Subliminal?  Torture?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First of all, Huggy, don't be so insecure...you're worried that folks might realize that you're averse to education?
> 
> Second, I have to wonder about your calculations, as some 8.4 times as many folks have read CF's thread as responded to it....so you really have no way of knowing how many have had their eyes opened..pravda?
> 
> Oh...and Happy New Year!
Click to expand...


Most Americans are educated far beyond their intelligence.
This matter is intelligence in more ways than one. It isn't intelligent to conduct intelligence in front of TV cameras.
Any suit in the field knows you do not need an education to know that.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Mr Clean said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well Frankie ......you and P Chicklets have convinced about 2 people in four months.  That's not a lot of progress.  Your propaganda is weak.  Have you considered Hypnosis?  LSD?  Subliminal?  Torture?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *I'm up against 65 years of indoctrination.*I'm up against people who would fight each other to take a bullet for Uncle Joe
> 
> Even after the USSR admitted to spying, I still have USSR defenders telling me how wrong McCarthy was.
> 
> It has more to do with how effective the Communists were at programming their Useful Idiots than my effectiveness at deprogramming.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Sixty-five years?
> 
> What the fuck are they waiting for?
Click to expand...


The American commies are knocking out Frank's front door as we speak.


----------



## elvis

was Joe McCarthy a democrat?  just asking.


----------



## JakeStarkey

The brief bio says he was elected as a county judge or something at age 30 then he went off to war with 16 million other Americans.  "McCarthy first enlisted in the Marine Corps on February 20, 1937 in Chicago and served for four years. Following the attack on Pearl Harbor, he re-enlisted and returned to active duty in February 1942. In June of that year, he was discharged with the rank of first sergeant in order to accept a commission in the Marine Corps Reserve.  ///   McCarthy joined the 4th Marine Division shortly thereafter, and went overseas in January 1944. While deployed, he took part in the Roi-Namur, Saipan-Tinian, and Iwo Jima campaigns. He was awarded the Silver Star for heroism as a rifle company commander on Saipan in 1944. He received the Purple Heart with Gold Star for wounds received in action on Saipan and Iwo Jima."
Joseph J. McCarthy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If the wiki piece is accurate, one can't question his military valor.  Of course, the same thing can be said about Hitler.


----------



## American Horse

JakeStarkey said:


> The brief bio says he was elected as a county judge or something at age 30 then he went off to war with 16 million other Americans.  "McCarthy first enlisted in the Marine Corps on February 20, 1937 in Chicago and served for four years. Following the attack on Pearl Harbor, he re-enlisted and returned to active duty in February 1942. In June of that year, he was discharged with the rank of first sergeant in order to accept a commission in the Marine Corps Reserve.  ///   McCarthy joined the 4th Marine Division shortly thereafter, and went overseas in January 1944. While deployed, he took part in the Roi-Namur, Saipan-Tinian, and Iwo Jima campaigns. He was awarded the Silver Star for heroism as a rifle company commander on Saipan in 1944. He received the Purple Heart with Gold Star for wounds received in action on Saipan and Iwo Jima."
> Joseph J. McCarthy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> If the wiki piece is accurate, one can't question his military valor.  Of course, the same thing can be said about Hitler.



Hey man, Hitler was not a US Marine!


----------



## JakeStarkey

American Horse said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> The brief bio says he was elected as a county judge or something at age 30 then he went off to war with 16 million other Americans.  "McCarthy first enlisted in the Marine Corps on February 20, 1937 in Chicago and served for four years. Following the attack on Pearl Harbor, he re-enlisted and returned to active duty in February 1942. In June of that year, he was discharged with the rank of first sergeant in order to accept a commission in the Marine Corps Reserve.  ///   McCarthy joined the 4th Marine Division shortly thereafter, and went overseas in January 1944. While deployed, he took part in the Roi-Namur, Saipan-Tinian, and Iwo Jima campaigns. He was awarded the Silver Star for heroism as a rifle company commander on Saipan in 1944. He received the Purple Heart with Gold Star for wounds received in action on Saipan and Iwo Jima."
> Joseph J. McCarthy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> If the wiki piece is accurate, one can't question his military valor.  Of course, the same thing can be said about Hitler.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey man, Hitler was not a US Marine!
Click to expand...


Nope, he did not. Hitler served for four years on the western front during WWI as a messenger and won an Iron Cross for valor. His half nephew William Patrick (Hitler) Stuart-Houston served in WWII in the Navy and was awarded a Purple Heart.


----------



## Gadawg73

American Horse said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> The brief bio says he was elected as a county judge or something at age 30 then he went off to war with 16 million other Americans.  "McCarthy first enlisted in the Marine Corps on February 20, 1937 in Chicago and served for four years. Following the attack on Pearl Harbor, he re-enlisted and returned to active duty in February 1942. In June of that year, he was discharged with the rank of first sergeant in order to accept a commission in the Marine Corps Reserve.  ///   McCarthy joined the 4th Marine Division shortly thereafter, and went overseas in January 1944. While deployed, he took part in the Roi-Namur, Saipan-Tinian, and Iwo Jima campaigns. He was awarded the Silver Star for heroism as a rifle company commander on Saipan in 1944. He received the Purple Heart with Gold Star for wounds received in action on Saipan and Iwo Jima."
> Joseph J. McCarthy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> If the wiki piece is accurate, one can't question his military valor.  Of course, the same thing can be said about Hitler.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey man, Hitler was not a US Marine!
Click to expand...


McCarthy forged Admiral Nimitz' signature on a letter of commendation. That he admitted to later in life. McCarthy also claimed a war wound from an airplane crash. That was also a fraud as he slipped and fell in an Order of the Deep ritual when sailors cross the equator. 
Facts are a biatch.


----------



## Cecilie1200

CrusaderFrank said:


> Father Time said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> LOL What a bunch of Stalin Fluffers!
> 
> Now you're saying that Venona actually did back up McCarthy but because some of the people US State wanted to look at turn up on FBI files instead of Venona...what? You still don't see how you reflexively leap to the defense of Stalin?
> 
> It's so sick the lenghts you Leftists go to to defend your Uncle Joe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You said Venona proved him right, it did but in less than half the cases. So to say it proved him correct was misleading.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, not at all.
> 
> Venona dealt with people in DIRECT contact with Moscow. The State Department complied its own list of Communist and suspected Communist and Communist Loyalists, so you could not expect there to be a 100% match between the State Dept List and Venona.
> 
> Also, just take a minute and see who was on Venona and what their job was for the US government.
> 
> It's frightening!
Click to expand...


And the big point isn't whether or not Venona confirmed every single person investigated as a Soviet spy.  The big point is that Venona proved that McCarthy was right that there were spies and security risks in the government.


----------



## Cecilie1200

elvis said:


> was Joe McCarthy a democrat?  just asking.



Why?


----------



## Gadawg73

Cecilie1200 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Father Time said:
> 
> 
> 
> You said Venona proved him right, it did but in less than half the cases. So to say it proved him correct was misleading.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, not at all.
> 
> Venona dealt with people in DIRECT contact with Moscow. The State Department complied its own list of Communist and suspected Communist and Communist Loyalists, so you could not expect there to be a 100% match between the State Dept List and Venona.
> 
> Also, just take a minute and see who was on Venona and what their job was for the US government.
> 
> It's frightening!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> And the big point isn't whether or not Venona confirmed every single person investigated as a Soviet spy.  The big point is that Venona proved that McCarthy was right that there were spies and security risks in the government.
Click to expand...


Are you claiming that NO ONE in the US intelligence organizations in place in the 1950s, a vast and large world wide intelligence gathering operation, knew "there were spies and security risks in government"?
We damn well knew since the late 30s, had intelligence operations worldwide, state side AND IN THE GOVERNMENT, working to gather intelligence and turn operatives.
McCarthy compromised those operations with his Hollywood performance.


----------



## JakeStarkey

CeCelie1200 is just as bad morally as the commie disinformation agents in America during the 1930s.  Thank God she is far less effective.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Gadawg73 said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, not at all.
> 
> Venona dealt with people in DIRECT contact with Moscow. The State Department complied its own list of Communist and suspected Communist and Communist Loyalists, so you could not expect there to be a 100% match between the State Dept List and Venona.
> 
> Also, just take a minute and see who was on Venona and what their job was for the US government.
> 
> It's frightening!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the big point isn't whether or not Venona confirmed every single person investigated as a Soviet spy.  The big point is that Venona proved that McCarthy was right that there were spies and security risks in the government.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are you claiming that NO ONE in the US intelligence organizations in place in the 1950s, a vast and large world wide intelligence gathering operation, knew "there were spies and security risks in government"?
> We damn well knew since the late 30s, had intelligence operations worldwide, state side AND IN THE GOVERNMENT, working to gather intelligence and turn operatives.
> McCarthy compromised those operations with his Hollywood performance.
Click to expand...


Of course there were people who knew that there were security risks in the government:  there were, after all, the people covering for them.  McCarthy's point was that there SHOULDN'T have been any, and he wanted to know why there were, which was a completely legitimate question.

Are you seriously now trying to pretend that your objection - or anyone's objection, for that matter - to McCarthy is that our intelligence community was "cleverly" allowing Soviet spies to subvert our government in the hope that they could "turn" them?  Seriously?  THAT'S going to be your story now?  Because that's even bigger bullshit than your whole schtick about "being in intelligence", and frankly makes it seem even less credible than it was before.  You and Valerie Plame and Joe Wilson, big players in the spy game.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Cecilie1200 said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> And the big point isn't whether or not Venona confirmed every single person investigated as a Soviet spy.  The big point is that Venona proved that McCarthy was right that there were spies and security risks in the government.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you claiming that NO ONE in the US intelligence organizations in place in the 1950s, a vast and large world wide intelligence gathering operation, knew "there were spies and security risks in government"?
> We damn well knew since the late 30s, had intelligence operations worldwide, state side AND IN THE GOVERNMENT, working to gather intelligence and turn operatives.
> McCarthy compromised those operations with his Hollywood performance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Of course there were people who knew that there were security risks in the government:  there were, after all, the people covering for them.  McCarthy's point was that there SHOULDN'T have been any, and he wanted to know why there were, which was a completely legitimate question.
> 
> Are you seriously now trying to pretend that your objection - or anyone's objection, for that matter - to McCarthy is that our intelligence community was "cleverly" allowing Soviet spies to subvert our government in the hope that they could "turn" them?  Seriously?  THAT'S going to be your story now?  Because that's even bigger bullshit than your whole schtick about "being in intelligence", and frankly makes it seem even less credible than it was before.  You and Valerie Plame and Joe Wilson, big players in the spy game.
Click to expand...


Once again you deliberately fail to repeat accurately what is said.


----------



## Gadawg73

Cecilie1200 said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> And the big point isn't whether or not Venona confirmed every single person investigated as a Soviet spy.  The big point is that Venona proved that McCarthy was right that there were spies and security risks in the government.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you claiming that NO ONE in the US intelligence organizations in place in the 1950s, a vast and large world wide intelligence gathering operation, knew "there were spies and security risks in government"?
> We damn well knew since the late 30s, had intelligence operations worldwide, state side AND IN THE GOVERNMENT, working to gather intelligence and turn operatives.
> McCarthy compromised those operations with his Hollywood performance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Of course there were people who knew that there were security risks in the government:  there were, after all, the people covering for them.  McCarthy's point was that there SHOULDN'T have been any, and he wanted to know why there were, which was a completely legitimate question.
> 
> Are you seriously now trying to pretend that your objection - or anyone's objection, for that matter - to McCarthy is that our intelligence community was "cleverly" allowing Soviet spies to subvert our government in the hope that they could "turn" them?  Seriously?  THAT'S going to be your story now?  Because that's even bigger bullshit than your whole schtick about "being in intelligence", and frankly makes it seem even less credible than it was before.  You and Valerie Plame and Joe Wilson, big players in the spy game.
Click to expand...


You know nothing of intelligence.
Intelligence does not want TV cameras, press and hearings. EVER. 
Intelligence gathers information by any means possible and always attempts to turn spies.
Always. 
Hoover was jealous of the intelligence organization that was the foundation of CIA former members of OSS. He claimed they had security risks and never offered any details. That is what started McCarthy. Hoover  publicly called them "Wisners gang of weirdos".   
A pissing contest with Hoover. Allen Dulles stood up to him and refused to allow FBI unsubstantiated rumors as part of the start of the CIA.
Enter Broadway Joe.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

58 pages 900+ posts and people still have to prove time and again all they learned about McCarthy was taught to them by Stalin loyalists.

Comparing McCarthy, a genuine American Patriot and Hero to Hitler?

Gadoofus STILL does not know that McCarthy's information came from concerned Americans at US State who were wondering aloud why there should be card carrying Communists employed there? (Answer: because FDR and Truman were protecting them)


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Cecilie1200 said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> And the big point isn't whether or not Venona confirmed every single person investigated as a Soviet spy.  The big point is that Venona proved that McCarthy was right that there were spies and security risks in the government.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you claiming that NO ONE in the US intelligence organizations in place in the 1950s, a vast and large world wide intelligence gathering operation, knew "there were spies and security risks in government"?
> We damn well knew since the late 30s, had intelligence operations worldwide, state side AND IN THE GOVERNMENT, working to gather intelligence and turn operatives.
> McCarthy compromised those operations with his Hollywood performance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Of course there were people who knew that there were security risks in the government:  there were, after all, the people covering for them.  McCarthy's point was that there SHOULDN'T have been any, and he wanted to know why there were, which was a completely legitimate question.
> 
> Are you seriously now trying to pretend that your objection - or anyone's objection, for that matter - to McCarthy is that our intelligence community was "cleverly" allowing Soviet spies to subvert our government in the hope that they could "turn" them?  Seriously?  THAT'S going to be your story now?  Because that's even bigger bullshit than your whole schtick about "being in intelligence", and frankly makes it seem even less credible than it was before.  You and Valerie Plame and Joe Wilson, big players in the spy game.
Click to expand...


That we have to state the painfully obvious shows how effective our enemies were at converting their Useful Idiots


----------



## American Horse

Gadawg73 said:


> American Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> The brief bio says he was elected as a county judge or something at age 30 then he went off to war with 16 million other Americans.  "McCarthy first enlisted in the Marine Corps on February 20, 1937 in Chicago and served for four years. Following the attack on Pearl Harbor, he re-enlisted and returned to active duty in February 1942. In June of that year, he was discharged with the rank of first sergeant in order to accept a commission in the Marine Corps Reserve.  ///   McCarthy joined the 4th Marine Division shortly thereafter, and went overseas in January 1944. While deployed, he took part in the Roi-Namur, Saipan-Tinian, and Iwo Jima campaigns. He was awarded the Silver Star for heroism as a rifle company commander on Saipan in 1944. He received the Purple Heart with Gold Star for wounds received in action on *Saipan* and Iwo Jima."
> Joseph J. McCarthy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> If the wiki piece is accurate, one can't question his military valor.  Of course, the same thing can be said about Hitler.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey man, Hitler was not a US Marine!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> McCarthy forged Admiral Nimitz' signature on a letter of commendation. That he admitted to later in life. McCarthy also claimed a war wound from an airplane crash. That was also a fraud as he slipped and fell in an Order of the Deep ritual when sailors cross the equator.
> Facts are a biatch.
Click to expand...

Your sources on those two items PLEASE?
[meanwhile FROM the JS link at Wikki and the *Saipan* mention above]
Historian Bill D. Ross would write about him in 1985:

_"_ McCarthy was thirty three; overage for a company commander. He was Irish and he looked it: husky, red complexioned, pug nose. Superior officers sometimes found his manner abrasive, but unlike many Irishmen, he wasn't talkative. He was, in fact, laconic and tight-lipped. "I don't like malarkey or bullshit," the Chicagoan often said. But Joe McCarthy knew the uncompromising business of battle; he had the Silver Star for leading his company up a savagely contested hill on Saipan and his men called him "the best damned officer in the Marine Corps."  _"_


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Reintroducing "McCarthy blacklisted Zero Mostel" in 5, 4, 3....

We need to get to the bottom of how the USSR programmed their Useful Idiots and see if it can be undone


----------



## konradv

CrusaderFrank said:


> Reintroducing "McCarthy blacklisted Zero Mostel" in 5, 4, 3....
> 
> We need to get to the bottom of how the USSR programmed their Useful Idiots and see if it can be undone



There Frank goes again, standing up for the criminals!!!


----------



## Gadawg73

CrusaderFrank said:


> 58 pages 900+ posts and people still have to prove time and again all they learned about McCarthy was taught to them by Stalin loyalists.
> 
> Comparing McCarthy, a genuine American Patriot and Hero to Hitler?
> 
> Gadoofus STILL does not know that McCarthy's information came from concerned Americans at US State who were wondering aloud why there should be card carrying Communists employed there? (Answer: because FDR and Truman were protecting them)



Allen Dulles and the Army "Stalin loyalists"?
Roll me one out of your bag Frank.


----------



## Gadawg73

American Horse said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> American Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey man, Hitler was not a US Marine!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> McCarthy forged Admiral Nimitz' signature on a letter of commendation. That he admitted to later in life. McCarthy also claimed a war wound from an airplane crash. That was also a fraud as he slipped and fell in an Order of the Deep ritual when sailors cross the equator.
> Facts are a biatch.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Your sources on those two items PLEASE?
> [meanwhile FROM the JS link at Wikki and the *Saipan* mention above]
> Historian Bill D. Ross would write about him in 1985:
> 
> _"_ McCarthy was thirty three; overage for a company commander. He was Irish and he looked it: husky, red complexioned, pug nose. Superior officers sometimes found his manner abrasive, but unlike many Irishmen, he wasn't talkative. He was, in fact, laconic and tight-lipped. "I don't like malarkey or bullshit," the Chicagoan often said. But Joe McCarthy knew the uncompromising business of battle; he had the Silver Star for leading his company up a savagely contested hill on Saipan and his men called him "the best damned officer in the Marine Corps."  _"_
Click to expand...


Your source Wiki? 
My source: Captain Joseph Canaan, USMC, stationed with McCarthy in the Pacific. "Joe's only experience in combat was 2 missions in one day" as reported in the Madison Capital Times in 1949. Canaan also stated "Joe told me he made the whole thing up for publicity value".
"In fact, in a hospital in the New Hevrides Joe personally showed me the Associated Press clipping about firing more rounds than any gunner in one day. I believe on the day he fired them all of the Jap planes at Rabaul were all dead" wrote Canaan. In the letter Captain Canaan advised the Times to check McCarthys official "jacket" in Washington "to expose this guy for the fraud he is".  from _A Conspiracy so Immense_ David Oshinsky. This was further indicated in speeches McCarthy made. Fraudulently molding his image first he claimed it was 14 bombing missions in 1944, in 1947 his speeches said 17 missions, in 1951 it rose to 32 when he requested The Distinguished Flying Cross for the 25 missions he never flew. 

Need more facts or are you a Wiki man?
Facts from soldiers THAT WERE THERE WITH HIM.
McCarthy was the worst kind of fraud. Faked MOST of his military experience.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Gadawg73 said:


> American Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> McCarthy forged Admiral Nimitz' signature on a letter of commendation. That he admitted to later in life. McCarthy also claimed a war wound from an airplane crash. That was also a fraud as he slipped and fell in an Order of the Deep ritual when sailors cross the equator.
> Facts are a biatch.
> 
> 
> 
> Your sources on those two items PLEASE?
> [meanwhile FROM the JS link at Wikki and the *Saipan* mention above]
> Historian Bill D. Ross would write about him in 1985:
> 
> _"_ McCarthy was thirty three; overage for a company commander. He was Irish and he looked it: husky, red complexioned, pug nose. Superior officers sometimes found his manner abrasive, but unlike many Irishmen, he wasn't talkative. He was, in fact, laconic and tight-lipped. "I don't like malarkey or bullshit," the Chicagoan often said. But Joe McCarthy knew the uncompromising business of battle; he had the Silver Star for leading his company up a savagely contested hill on Saipan and his men called him "the best damned officer in the Marine Corps."  _"_
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your source Wiki?
> My source: Captain Joseph Canaan, USMC, stationed with McCarthy in the Pacific. "Joe's only experience in combat was 2 missions in one day" as reported in the Madison Capital Times in 1949. Canaan also stated "Joe told me he made the whole thing up for publicity value".
> "In fact, in a hospital in the New Hevrides Joe personally showed me the Associated Press clipping about firing more rounds than any gunner in one day. I believe on the day he fired them all of the Jap planes at Rabaul were all dead" wrote Canaan. In the letter Captain Canaan advised the Times to check McCarthys official "jacket" in Washington "to expose this guy for the fraud he is".  from _A Conspiracy so Immense_ David Oshinsky. This was further indicated in speeches McCarthy made. Fraudulently molding his image first he claimed it was 14 bombing missions in 1944, in 1947 his speeches said 17 missions, in 1951 it rose to 32 when he requested The Distinguished Flying Cross for the 25 missions he never flew.
> 
> Need more facts or are you a Wiki man?
> Facts from soldiers THAT WERE THERE WITH HIM.
> McCarthy was the worst kind of fraud. Faked MOST of his military experience.
Click to expand...


I did a quick search and found wiki.  If he was a Marine and was in the Pacific, he was not a cream puff.  However, what do the official Marine records report?


----------



## Gadawg73

JakeStarkey said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> American Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your sources on those two items PLEASE?
> [meanwhile FROM the JS link at Wikki and the *Saipan* mention above]
> Historian Bill D. Ross would write about him in 1985:
> 
> _"_ McCarthy was thirty three; overage for a company commander. He was Irish and he looked it: husky, red complexioned, pug nose. Superior officers sometimes found his manner abrasive, but unlike many Irishmen, he wasn't talkative. He was, in fact, laconic and tight-lipped. "I don't like malarkey or bullshit," the Chicagoan often said. But Joe McCarthy knew the uncompromising business of battle; he had the Silver Star for leading his company up a savagely contested hill on Saipan and his men called him "the best damned officer in the Marine Corps."  _"_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your source Wiki?
> My source: Captain Joseph Canaan, USMC, stationed with McCarthy in the Pacific. "Joe's only experience in combat was 2 missions in one day" as reported in the Madison Capital Times in 1949. Canaan also stated "Joe told me he made the whole thing up for publicity value".
> "In fact, in a hospital in the New Hevrides Joe personally showed me the Associated Press clipping about firing more rounds than any gunner in one day. I believe on the day he fired them all of the Jap planes at Rabaul were all dead" wrote Canaan. In the letter Captain Canaan advised the Times to check McCarthys official "jacket" in Washington "to expose this guy for the fraud he is".  from _A Conspiracy so Immense_ David Oshinsky. This was further indicated in speeches McCarthy made. Fraudulently molding his image first he claimed it was 14 bombing missions in 1944, in 1947 his speeches said 17 missions, in 1951 it rose to 32 when he requested The Distinguished Flying Cross for the 25 missions he never flew.
> 
> Need more facts or are you a Wiki man?
> Facts from soldiers THAT WERE THERE WITH HIM.
> McCarthy was the worst kind of fraud. Faked MOST of his military experience.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I did a quick search and found wiki.  If he was a Marine and was in the Pacific, he was not a cream puff.  However, what do the official Marine records report?
Click to expand...


He was in the Marines. 
He never released his records. Can't blame him for that and many vets fluffed their resumes, many more politicians that were vets. Kerry comes to mind. That is nothing new.
Doesn't make it right.
Bull shit walks where bull shit talks.


----------



## HUGGY

JakeStarkey said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> American Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your sources on those two items PLEASE?
> [meanwhile FROM the JS link at Wikki and the *Saipan* mention above]
> Historian Bill D. Ross would write about him in 1985:
> 
> _"_ McCarthy was thirty three; overage for a company commander. He was Irish and he looked it: husky, red complexioned, pug nose. Superior officers sometimes found his manner abrasive, but unlike many Irishmen, he wasn't talkative. He was, in fact, laconic and tight-lipped. "I don't like malarkey or bullshit," the Chicagoan often said. But Joe McCarthy knew the uncompromising business of battle; he had the Silver Star for leading his company up a savagely contested hill on Saipan and his men called him "the best damned officer in the Marine Corps."  _"_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your source Wiki?
> My source: Captain Joseph Canaan, USMC, stationed with McCarthy in the Pacific. "Joe's only experience in combat was 2 missions in one day" as reported in the Madison Capital Times in 1949. Canaan also stated "Joe told me he made the whole thing up for publicity value".
> "In fact, in a hospital in the New Hevrides Joe personally showed me the Associated Press clipping about firing more rounds than any gunner in one day. I believe on the day he fired them all of the Jap planes at Rabaul were all dead" wrote Canaan. In the letter Captain Canaan advised the Times to check McCarthys official "jacket" in Washington "to expose this guy for the fraud he is".  from _A Conspiracy so Immense_ David Oshinsky. This was further indicated in speeches McCarthy made. Fraudulently molding his image first he claimed it was 14 bombing missions in 1944, in 1947 his speeches said 17 missions, in 1951 it rose to 32 when he requested The Distinguished Flying Cross for the 25 missions he never flew.
> 
> Need more facts or are you a Wiki man?
> Facts from soldiers THAT WERE THERE WITH HIM.
> McCarthy was the worst kind of fraud. Faked MOST of his military experience.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I did a quick search and found wiki.  If he was a Marine and was in the Pacific, he was not a *cream puff.*  However, what do the official Marine records report?
Click to expand...


Yum.......  Cream Puffs!!!!   Holland American cruises has the worlds best cream puffs.  They have a chocolate filling...  THE BEST!!!!  Bite into one and it melts into nirvana before touching your tongue.  The sensation of cream and chocolate and the lightest pastry evaporating in the palate in an explosion of sweet chocolaty goodness is an experience I recommend on any bucket list. 

Just sayin.....


----------



## whitehall

CrusaderFrank said:


> I'm only about 35 pages into M. Stanton Evans "Blacklisted by History" and I am livid at the utter gall and tremendous scope of the Leftist outright lies.
> 
> Did you know that many of the original documents that McCarthy based his campaign on are missing?
> 
> As recently as March 1993 someone, we don't know who
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> went into the US National Archives and took the Klaus Memo, a 1946 memo by a State Department official Samuel Klaus implicating Alger Hiss and many others as Communist spies?



First we see the former National Security Advisor turned into a common thief stealing documents from the Archives to protect his sleaze bag bubba boss from criticism about 9-11 and now it seems that the left wing has been stealing documents all along. I read somewhere that after he died FDR's medical records disappeared from a locked safe and were never seen again. The implication is that FDR had suffered several strokes while in office and his supporters didn't want Americans to the extent of his disabilities while he was running the Country.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

whitehall said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm only about 35 pages into M. Stanton Evans "Blacklisted by History" and I am livid at the utter gall and tremendous scope of the Leftist outright lies.
> 
> Did you know that many of the original documents that McCarthy based his campaign on are missing?
> 
> As recently as March 1993 someone, we don't know who
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> went into the US National Archives and took the Klaus Memo, a 1946 memo by a State Department official Samuel Klaus implicating Alger Hiss and many others as Communist spies?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First we see the former National Security Advisor turned into a common thief stealing documents from the Archives to protect his sleaze bag bubba boss from criticism about 9-11 and now it seems that the left wing has been stealing documents all along. I read somewhere that after he died FDR's medical records disappeared from a locked safe and were never seen again. The implication is that FDR had suffered several strokes while in office and his supporters didn't want Americans to the extent of his disabilities while he was running the Country.
Click to expand...


FDR handed China to Mao and Eastern Europe to Stalin, if he wasn't ill, then he was the greatest asset the Communist ever had in the US Government


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Reading some of the latest comments on McCarthy and his service, and as I've said I will not deal with them directly because they are desperate flailing of deranged Marxists. However, I must say they read like the occasional WWII Japanese soldier hiding out in Guam who resurfaces 60 years later believing WWII is still on. They cling to the notion that Uncle Joe was a fine man and McCarthy drummed up a "Red Scare" and used his HUAC to Blacklisted Zero Mostel

Check a calendar, it's 2011 and much has changed since you learned your history.


----------



## Gadawg73

CrusaderFrank said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm only about 35 pages into M. Stanton Evans "Blacklisted by History" and I am livid at the utter gall and tremendous scope of the Leftist outright lies.
> 
> Did you know that many of the original documents that McCarthy based his campaign on are missing?
> 
> As recently as March 1993 someone, we don't know who
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> went into the US National Archives and took the Klaus Memo, a 1946 memo by a State Department official Samuel Klaus implicating Alger Hiss and many others as Communist spies?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First we see the former National Security Advisor turned into a common thief stealing documents from the Archives to protect his sleaze bag bubba boss from criticism about 9-11 and now it seems that the left wing has been stealing documents all along. I read somewhere that after he died FDR's medical records disappeared from a locked safe and were never seen again. The implication is that FDR had suffered several strokes while in office and his supporters didn't want Americans to the extent of his disabilities while he was running the Country.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> FDR handed China to Mao and Eastern Europe to Stalin, if he wasn't ill, then he was the greatest asset the Communist ever had in the US Government
Click to expand...


Was Winston Churchill also the greatest asset the communists ever had?
He was also at Yalta.
FDR handed nothing to no one. Stalin the ruthless TOOK what he had and we came home. Occupation zones were a joke but how can we occupate ALL of eastern Europe WITH Rissian troops there Frank?
Another 500K KIA and 1 million injuries was the low ball estimate of a war over eastern Europe with the Ruskies.
Patton was all for it.


----------



## HUGGY

CrusaderFrank said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm only about 35 pages into M. Stanton Evans "Blacklisted by History" and I am livid at the utter gall and tremendous scope of the Leftist outright lies.
> 
> Did you know that many of the original documents that McCarthy based his campaign on are missing?
> 
> As recently as March 1993 someone, we don't know who
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> went into the US National Archives and took the Klaus Memo, a 1946 memo by a State Department official Samuel Klaus implicating Alger Hiss and many others as Communist spies?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First we see the former National Security Advisor turned into a common thief stealing documents from the Archives to protect his sleaze bag bubba boss from criticism about 9-11 and now it seems that the left wing has been stealing documents all along. I read somewhere that after he died FDR's medical records disappeared from a locked safe and were never seen again. The implication is that FDR had suffered several strokes while in office and his supporters didn't want Americans to the extent of his disabilities while he was running the Country.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> FDR handed China to Mao and Eastern Europe to Stalin, if he wasn't ill, then he was the greatest asset the Communist ever had in the US Government
Click to expand...


You and every American should thank their lucky stars that the commies got China.  Can you imagine a China with TWICE it's population?  Do you think the social changes achieved by China would have occurred in a society like ours?  If so you are a very naive person.


----------



## Gadawg73

CrusaderFrank said:


> Reading some of the latest comments on McCarthy and his service, and as I've said I will not deal with them directly because they are desperate flailing of deranged Marxists. However, I must say they read like the occasional WWII Japanese soldier hiding out in Guam who resurfaces 60 years later believing WWII is still on. They cling to the notion that Uncle Joe was a fine man and McCarthy drummed up a "Red Scare" and used his HUAC to Blacklisted Zero Mostel
> 
> Check a calendar, it's 2011 and much has changed since you learned your history.



My father, uncle, cousins and brother killed hundreds of Marxists from the early 50s to the late 60s from Korea to Viet Nam and many other places in between.
No one here claimed that your Uncle Joe was a fine man so quit the childish BS Frank. 
You are a pompous nut to claim that I or anyone in my family are Marxists. We have been self employed entrepreneurs for the last 200 years. 
We kicked your ass on this one Frank. Good sports go to the middle of the field of play, shake the hands of their opponents and state "good game".
Wham it zero on set, EP team on ready.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Gadawg73 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> First we see the former National Security Advisor turned into a common thief stealing documents from the Archives to protect his sleaze bag bubba boss from criticism about 9-11 and now it seems that the left wing has been stealing documents all along. I read somewhere that after he died FDR's medical records disappeared from a locked safe and were never seen again. The implication is that FDR had suffered several strokes while in office and his supporters didn't want Americans to the extent of his disabilities while he was running the Country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FDR handed China to Mao and Eastern Europe to Stalin, if he wasn't ill, then he was the greatest asset the Communist ever had in the US Government
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Was Winston Churchill also the greatest asset the communists ever had?
> He was also at Yalta.
> FDR handed nothing to no one. Stalin the ruthless TOOK what he had and we came home. Occupation zones were a joke but how can we occupate ALL of eastern Europe WITH Rissian troops there Frank?
> Another 500K KIA and 1 million injuries was the low ball estimate of a war over eastern Europe with the Ruskies.
> Patton was all for it.
Click to expand...


You're a stupid fuck who refuses to open a book and learn anything.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

HUGGY said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> 
> First we see the former National Security Advisor turned into a common thief stealing documents from the Archives to protect his sleaze bag bubba boss from criticism about 9-11 and now it seems that the left wing has been stealing documents all along. I read somewhere that after he died FDR's medical records disappeared from a locked safe and were never seen again. The implication is that FDR had suffered several strokes while in office and his supporters didn't want Americans to the extent of his disabilities while he was running the Country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FDR handed China to Mao and Eastern Europe to Stalin, if he wasn't ill, then he was the greatest asset the Communist ever had in the US Government
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You and every American should thank their lucky stars that the commies got China.  Can you imagine a China with TWICE it's population?  Do you think the social changes achieved by China would have occurred in a society like ours?  If so you are a very naive person.
Click to expand...


What a fucking lowlife you are.

China under Mao was superior to Taiwan?

Get fucked, go fuck a knothole with a buzzsaw on the other end.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Patton had the right idea how to handle the Soviets at the end of WWII.  He considered the war a huge strategic FAILURE for the US and British because it left Berlin, Prague and Vienna in the "hands of the descendants of Genghis Khan" wheh the US could have captured those capitals.

And you can thank FDR taking advice from Alger Hiss (a Communist Spy) for that.


----------



## HUGGY

CrusaderFrank said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> FDR handed China to Mao and Eastern Europe to Stalin, if he wasn't ill, then he was the greatest asset the Communist ever had in the US Government
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You and every American should thank their lucky stars that the commies got China.  Can you imagine a China with TWICE it's population?  Do you think the social changes achieved by China would have occurred in a society like ours?  If so you are a very naive person.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What a fucking lowlife you are.
> 
> China under Mao was superior to Taiwan?
> 
> Get fucked, go fuck a knothole with a buzzsaw on the other end.
Click to expand...


Talk about the tail wagging the dog Frankie.  You ARE naive!  Grow the fuck UP!!!!  Taiwan?  PUULLEEEEZZZ!!!!!!!

China was the worlds biggest train wreck waiting to happen.  I know YOU think WE should have backed Taiwan against the mainland.  WHAT A FUCKING IDIOT!!!!  Do you have any idea what THAT war would have cost?  Then there would have been the occupation AND the foreign aid.  Frankie you are fucking crazy!


----------



## Gadawg73

CrusaderFrank said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> FDR handed China to Mao and Eastern Europe to Stalin, if he wasn't ill, then he was the greatest asset the Communist ever had in the US Government
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Was Winston Churchill also the greatest asset the communists ever had?
> He was also at Yalta.
> FDR handed nothing to no one. Stalin the ruthless TOOK what he had and we came home. Occupation zones were a joke but how can we occupate ALL of eastern Europe WITH Rissian troops there Frank?
> Another 500K KIA and 1 million injuries was the low ball estimate of a war over eastern Europe with the Ruskies.
> Patton was all for it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You're a stupid fuck who refuses to open a book and learn anything.
Click to expand...


I gave you the name of the book I read Frank by David Oshinsky. You are the one that is not interested in anything other than your own narrow minded propaganda.
Sticks and stones there rah rah boy. 
We know you have lost when you stoop to name calling.
Debating takes discipline Frank. You must have been a place kicker. 
Wide Right.


----------



## Gadawg73

CrusaderFrank said:


> Patton had the right idea how to handle the Soviets at the end of WWII.  He considered the war a huge strategic FAILURE for the US and British because it left Berlin, Prague and Vienna in the "hands of the descendants of Genghis Khan" wheh the US could have captured those capitals.
> 
> And you can thank FDR taking advice from Alger Hiss (a Communist Spy) for that.



Hiss wrote the Yalta treaty. 
But it wasn't FDR that provided the details. His ass was almost dead in Yalta. Again, you fail to see WHO did not want to police eastern Europe and fight the Russians.

That man was General Dwight D. Eisenhower, a leader that you claim was unqualified to make decisions and you know more today about what should have been done because someone wrote a book and told you so. 
Patton was a great motivator and field strategist at the expense of casualties. Policy wise he was a fool and loud mouth. 
Patton during the end of the European war in 1944: "Hell, why do we care what these God damn Russians think? We are going to have to fight them sooner or later, within the next generation. Why don't we do it now with our Army still intact and the damn Russians can have their hind end kicked back to Russia in 3 months?  We can do it easily with the help of the German troops we have if we just arm them and take them with us. They hate the bastards." Eisenhower had no choice. He knew Patton's mouth was out of control and Ike would never expose American troops to 500,000 KIA fighting the Russians. 
Patton's combat skills were second to none. However, that often does not translate to policy.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Frank, read one, because that is all I am going to post it.  Patton could not have defeated the Russians:

1.  The German armed forces were shattered, demoralized, and would require at least to retrain, re-equip, and reinforce.
2.  The British and the French would never have supported such an effort.
3.  The U.S. had no training divisions available in the states while the Soviet forces were three times the size of the U.S. and at least 90 divisions in training.
4.  The first atomic demonstration was almost three months away.
5.  The Japanese gave absolutely no indication they were going to give up in the next several years.

*AND YOU, YOU STUPID *******, WANTED PATTON TO ATTACK THE RUSSIANS?*


----------



## HUGGY

JakeStarkey said:


> Frank, read one, because that is all I am going to post it.  Patton could not have defeated the Russians:
> 
> 1.  The German armed forces were shattered, demoralized, and would require at least to retrain, re-equip, and reinforce.
> 2.  The British and the French would never have supported such an effort.
> 3.  The U.S. had no training divisions available in the states while the Soviet forces were three times the size of the U.S. and at least 90 divisions in training.
> 4.  The first atomic demonstration was almost three months away.
> 5.  The Japanese gave absolutely no indication they were going to give up in the next several years.
> 
> *AND YOU, YOU STUPID *******, WANTED PATTON TO ATTACK THE RUSSIANS?*



Don't forget the Chyneez!!!  He wanted us to back Tywondo two.  Frankie is what we like to call BAT SHIT FUCKING CRAYZEE!!!!!


----------



## Old Rocks

One might note also that the Russians had a much better tank than we did at that time.


----------



## elvis

CrusaderFrank said:


> 58 pages 900+ posts and people still have to prove time and again all they learned about McCarthy was taught to them by Stalin loyalists.
> 
> Comparing McCarthy, a genuine American Patriot and Hero to Hitler?
> 
> Gadoofus STILL does not know that McCarthy's information came from concerned Americans at US State who were wondering aloud why there should be card carrying Communists employed there? (Answer: because FDR and Truman were protecting them)



He wasn't Hitler.  but he was no hero, either.


----------



## editec

McCathy was an evil drunken piece of shit.

You revisionsist are likewise, incidently.


----------



## elvis

editec said:


> McCathy was an evil drunken piece of shit.
> 
> You revisionsist are likewise, incidently.


agreed, but he wasn't hitler.


----------



## editec

elvis said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> McCathy was an evil drunken piece of shit.
> 
> You revisionsist are likewise, incidently.
> 
> 
> 
> agreed, but he wasn't hitler.
Click to expand...

 
Neither was he Pol Pot, Stalin or Rumplestiltskin.

Let me rmind you again, it was the REPUBLICANS who finally found somebody so politically bulletprooof that he could be taken down.

A Blueblooded artiso Mainer, incidently, AND a woman.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

HUGGY said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> You and every American should thank their lucky stars that the commies got China.  Can you imagine a China with TWICE it's population?  Do you think the social changes achieved by China would have occurred in a society like ours?  If so you are a very naive person.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What a fucking lowlife you are.
> 
> China under Mao was superior to Taiwan?
> 
> Get fucked, go fuck a knothole with a buzzsaw on the other end.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Talk about the tail wagging the dog Frankie.  You ARE naive!  Grow the fuck UP!!!!  Taiwan?  PUULLEEEEZZZ!!!!!!!
> 
> China was the worlds biggest train wreck waiting to happen.  I know YOU think WE should have backed Taiwan against the mainland.  WHAT A FUCKING IDIOT!!!!  Do you have any idea what THAT war would have cost?  Then there would have been the occupation AND the foreign aid.  Frankie you are fucking crazy!
Click to expand...


This is why I'm trying to avoid dealing directly with idiots, because you have so so so so much remedial education before you can make a point. You, like Starkey and Gadawg are just plain fucking ignorant and REFUSE, staunchly REFUSE to let any facts enter your pointy head

We DID initially back Shek and a China that would have been Taiwan instead of a Cultural Revolution lead by histories greatest mass murderer.

WE BACKED SHEK!!!!

Communist spies at State got FDR to change his stance and back Mao because, are you ready, they told him Mao was a "Progressive" and "Democratic"

So FDR dropped Shek and backed Mao so Mao got to kill tens of millions while leading the worst regime in human history

And American Progressives rejoice!


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Gadawg73 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Patton had the right idea how to handle the Soviets at the end of WWII.  He considered the war a huge strategic FAILURE for the US and British because it left Berlin, Prague and Vienna in the "hands of the descendants of Genghis Khan" wheh the US could have captured those capitals.
> 
> And you can thank FDR taking advice from Alger Hiss (a Communist Spy) for that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hiss wrote the Yalta treaty.
> But it wasn't FDR that provided the details. His ass was almost dead in Yalta. Again, you fail to see WHO did not want to police eastern Europe and fight the Russians.
> 
> That man was General Dwight D. Eisenhower, a leader that you claim was unqualified to make decisions and you know more today about what should have been done because someone wrote a book and told you so.
> Patton was a great motivator and field strategist at the expense of casualties. Policy wise he was a fool and loud mouth.
> Patton during the end of the European war in 1944: "Hell, why do we care what these God damn Russians think? We are going to have to fight them sooner or later, within the next generation. Why don't we do it now with our Army still intact and the damn Russians can have their hind end kicked back to Russia in 3 months?  We can do it easily with the help of the German troops we have if we just arm them and take them with us. They hate the bastards." Eisenhower had no choice. He knew Patton's mouth was out of control and Ike would never expose American troops to 500,000 KIA fighting the Russians.
> Patton's combat skills were second to none. However, that often does not translate to policy.
Click to expand...


The movie Patton really gives people the incorrect idea about the man, but at least watched the movie and learned that much about him.

If Patton had Omar Bradly's job, the US would have been in Berlin, Prague and Vienna months ahead of the Russians.

He wrote in his diary in August 44 that letting the Germans slip out of Falaise was one of the worst decisions in human history

He predicted Eisenhower would run for President.

He knew letting the Russians keep Eastern Europe was a strategic failure.


----------



## HUGGY

CrusaderFrank said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> What a fucking lowlife you are.
> 
> China under Mao was superior to Taiwan?
> 
> Get fucked, go fuck a knothole with a buzzsaw on the other end.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Talk about the tail wagging the dog Frankie.  You ARE naive!  Grow the fuck UP!!!!  Taiwan?  PUULLEEEEZZZ!!!!!!!
> 
> China was the worlds biggest train wreck waiting to happen.  I know YOU think WE should have backed Taiwan against the mainland.  WHAT A FUCKING IDIOT!!!!  Do you have any idea what THAT war would have cost?  Then there would have been the occupation AND the foreign aid.  Frankie you are fucking crazy!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is why I'm trying to avoid dealing directly with idiots, because you have so so so so much remedial education before you can make a point. You, like Starkey and Gadawg are just plain fucking ignorant and REFUSE, staunchly REFUSE to let any facts enter your pointy head
> 
> We DID initially back Shek and a China that would have been Taiwan instead of a Cultural Revolution lead by histories greatest mass murderer.
> 
> WE BACKED SHEK!!!!
> 
> Communist spies at State got FDR to chance his stance and back Mao because, are you ready, they told him Mao was a "Progressive" and "Democratic"
> 
> So FDR dropped Shek and backed Mao so Mao got to kill tens of millions while leading the worst regime in human history
> 
> And American Progressives rejoice!
Click to expand...


Backed Mao?  China was none of our business.  Your obsession with commies has blinded you to reality.  

Bottom line...This country was NEVER in danger of going communist.   All the ranting by you and McCarthy will never save us from something that could never have happened.  There always were spies...there will always be spies.  If it is in the interest of a foreign government to weasel their way in they will try.  Commies are not just one variety.  Israel spies on us too.  So does Saudi Arabia...and India... and Pakistan  and any country that thinks they need to know some of our secrets.


----------



## JakeStarkey

I will post this one more time, then let it go.  CrusanderFrank won't answer.

_Frank, read onse, because that is all I am going to post it (so I repeated it, sue me!). Patton could not have defeated the Russians:

1. The German armed forces were shattered, demoralized, and would require at least (several years) to retrain, re-equip, and reinforce.
2. The British and the French would never have supported such an effort.
3. The U.S. had no training divisions available in the states while the Soviet forces were three times the size of the U.S. and had at least 90 divisions in training.
4. The first atomic demonstration was almost three months away.
5. The Japanese gave absolutely no indication they were going to give up in the next several years.

AND YOU, YOU STUPID *******, WANTED PATTON TO ATTACK THE RUSSIANS?_


----------



## CrusaderFrank

HUGGY said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> Talk about the tail wagging the dog Frankie.  You ARE naive!  Grow the fuck UP!!!!  Taiwan?  PUULLEEEEZZZ!!!!!!!
> 
> China was the worlds biggest train wreck waiting to happen.  I know YOU think WE should have backed Taiwan against the mainland.  WHAT A FUCKING IDIOT!!!!  Do you have any idea what THAT war would have cost?  Then there would have been the occupation AND the foreign aid.  Frankie you are fucking crazy!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is why I'm trying to avoid dealing directly with idiots, because you have so so so so much remedial education before you can make a point. You, like Starkey and Gadawg are just plain fucking ignorant and REFUSE, staunchly REFUSE to let any facts enter your pointy head
> 
> We DID initially back Shek and a China that would have been Taiwan instead of a Cultural Revolution lead by histories greatest mass murderer.
> 
> WE BACKED SHEK!!!!
> 
> Communist spies at State got FDR to chance his stance and back Mao because, are you ready, they told him Mao was a "Progressive" and "Democratic"
> 
> So FDR dropped Shek and backed Mao so Mao got to kill tens of millions while leading the worst regime in human history
> 
> And American Progressives rejoice!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Backed Mao?  China was none of our business.  Your obsession with commies has blinded you to reality.
> 
> Bottom line...This country was NEVER in danger of going communist.   All the ranting by you and McCarthy will never save us from something that could never have happened.  There always were spies...there will always be spies.  If it is in the interest of a foreign government to weasel their way in they will try.  Commies are not just one variety.  Israel spies on us too.  So does Saudi Arabia...and India... and Pakistan  and any country that thinks they need to know some of our secrets.
Click to expand...


Here's what Huggy was doing instead of reading anything I've recommended.







We had promised Shek we would back him in his fight against the Japanese and the ChiComs, that's a fact.

Shek was the fighting the Japanese when we were at war with them, that's a fact.

Communist spies at US State got the US to change their stance and back Mao, that's a fact 

AND THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF THIS THREAD, THE SPIES AT STATE CHANGED HUMAN HISTORY!


----------



## CrusaderFrank

JakeStarkey said:


> I will post this one more time, then let it go.  CrusanderFrank won't answer.
> 
> _Frank, read onse, because that is all I am going to post it (so I repeated it, sue me!). Patton could not have defeated the Russians:
> 
> 1. The German armed forces were shattered, demoralized, and would require at least (several years) to retrain, re-equip, and reinforce.
> 2. The British and the French would never have supported such an effort.
> 3. The U.S. had no training divisions available in the states while the Soviet forces were three times the size of the U.S. and had at least 90 divisions in training.
> 4. The first atomic demonstration was almost three months away.
> 5. The Japanese gave absolutely no indication they were going to give up in the next several years.
> 
> AND YOU, YOU STUPID *******, WANTED PATTON TO ATTACK THE RUSSIANS?_



First, stop imitating me, it's creepy.

Second, Patton is irrelevant to this thread.

Third, Patton disagreed with how the US and Brits prosecuted the war since August 1944 so by the time April 45 came it was obvious no one was listening to him and the USSR was going to be a problem.

Start a Patton thread if you must


----------



## Gadawg73

CrusaderFrank said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Patton had the right idea how to handle the Soviets at the end of WWII.  He considered the war a huge strategic FAILURE for the US and British because it left Berlin, Prague and Vienna in the "hands of the descendants of Genghis Khan" wheh the US could have captured those capitals.
> 
> And you can thank FDR taking advice from Alger Hiss (a Communist Spy) for that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hiss wrote the Yalta treaty.
> But it wasn't FDR that provided the details. His ass was almost dead in Yalta. Again, you fail to see WHO did not want to police eastern Europe and fight the Russians.
> 
> That man was General Dwight D. Eisenhower, a leader that you claim was unqualified to make decisions and you know more today about what should have been done because someone wrote a book and told you so.
> Patton was a great motivator and field strategist at the expense of casualties. Policy wise he was a fool and loud mouth.
> Patton during the end of the European war in 1944: "Hell, why do we care what these God damn Russians think? We are going to have to fight them sooner or later, within the next generation. Why don't we do it now with our Army still intact and the damn Russians can have their hind end kicked back to Russia in 3 months?  We can do it easily with the help of the German troops we have if we just arm them and take them with us. They hate the bastards." Eisenhower had no choice. He knew Patton's mouth was out of control and Ike would never expose American troops to 500,000 KIA fighting the Russians.
> Patton's combat skills were second to none. However, that often does not translate to policy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The movie Patton really gives people the incorrect idea about the man, but at least watched the movie and learned that much about him.
> 
> If Patton had Omar Bradly's job, the US would have been in Berlin, Prague and Vienna months ahead of the Russians.
> 
> He wrote in his diary in August 44 that letting the Germans slip out of Falaise was one of the worst decisions in human history
> 
> He predicted Eisenhower would run for President.
> 
> He knew letting the Russians keep Eastern Europe was a strategic failure.
Click to expand...


The movie was great Frank as I love George C. Scott but I have read Wesley Clarks and Steven Zaloga's autobiography. I also have read the 850 page Eisenhower 1943-1945 at War by David Eisenhower. I have a vast WWII book collection as that is one of my hobbies.
So we demand in words for Russia to leave eastern Europe and Stalin and his 90 intact divisions armed to the teeth say "yes sir, we will leave immediately".
Frank believes that would have worked.
Facts are that the Russians took 90K KIA and 250K wounded in 4 months taking Berlin. Germany took 5.5 million KIA in WWII, mostly to the Russians. Russia took 9 million KIA and how many more would they have taken in a fight with us? Us with NO allies, doing it alone.
Every military General anywhere during WWII knew that if Patton was in charge there would be no cooperation between the allies.
You do know that the English and the Russians were our allies Frank and many times they took as much or more territory than we did. 
Frank was for Patton adding another 150K KIA Americans to take Berlin, Prague and Vienna. No military leader anywhere has stated that it would have worked but even if it was attempted the 150K KIA would have happened.
No one let the Russians "keep eastern Europe" Frank.
The Russians TOOK eastern Europe. Spoils of war is horrible but reality is hard for ideologues to accept. We knew in 1941 what the deal would be.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Gadawg73 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hiss wrote the Yalta treaty.
> But it wasn't FDR that provided the details. His ass was almost dead in Yalta. Again, you fail to see WHO did not want to police eastern Europe and fight the Russians.
> 
> That man was General Dwight D. Eisenhower, a leader that you claim was unqualified to make decisions and you know more today about what should have been done because someone wrote a book and told you so.
> Patton was a great motivator and field strategist at the expense of casualties. Policy wise he was a fool and loud mouth.
> Patton during the end of the European war in 1944: "Hell, why do we care what these God damn Russians think? We are going to have to fight them sooner or later, within the next generation. Why don't we do it now with our Army still intact and the damn Russians can have their hind end kicked back to Russia in 3 months?  We can do it easily with the help of the German troops we have if we just arm them and take them with us. They hate the bastards." Eisenhower had no choice. He knew Patton's mouth was out of control and Ike would never expose American troops to 500,000 KIA fighting the Russians.
> Patton's combat skills were second to none. However, that often does not translate to policy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The movie Patton really gives people the incorrect idea about the man, but at least watched the movie and learned that much about him.
> 
> If Patton had Omar Bradly's job, the US would have been in Berlin, Prague and Vienna months ahead of the Russians.
> 
> He wrote in his diary in August 44 that letting the Germans slip out of Falaise was one of the worst decisions in human history
> 
> He predicted Eisenhower would run for President.
> 
> He knew letting the Russians keep Eastern Europe was a strategic failure.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The movie was great Frank as I love George C. Scott but I have read Wesley Clarks and Steven Zaloga's autobiography. I also have read the 850 page Eisenhower 1943-1945 at War by David Eisenhower. I have a vast WWII book collection as that is one of my hobbies.
> So we demand in words for Russia to leave eastern Europe and Stalin and his 90 intact divisions armed to the teeth say "yes sir, we will leave immediately".
> Frank believes that would have worked.
> Facts are that the Russians took 90K KIA and 250K wounded in 4 months taking Berlin. Germany took 5.5 million KIA in WWII, mostly to the Russians. Russia took 9 million KIA and how many more would they have taken in a fight with us? Us with NO allies, doing it alone.
> Every military General anywhere during WWII knew that if Patton was in charge there would be no cooperation between the allies.
> You do know that the English and the Russians were our allies Frank and many times they took as much or more territory than we did.
> Frank was for Patton adding another 150K KIA Americans to take Berlin, Prague and Vienna. No military leader anywhere has stated that it would have worked but even if it was attempted the 150K KIA would have happened.
> No one let the Russians "keep eastern Europe" Frank.
> The Russians TOOK eastern Europe. Spoils of war is horrible but reality is hard for ideologues to accept. We knew in 1941 what the deal would be.
Click to expand...


You say you have books and I 'll take your word at it, but reading does not appear high up on your to do list.

I said Patton would have ended the war months earlier and gotten to Berlin, Prague and Vienna ahead of the Russians.  Do you want me to repeat that again?  How many more times must I post it before you get it?

FDR let politics run the war, he let Stalin take Berlin Prague and Vienna.

Patton, the Germans and most of the civilized world would rather have had the US and Brits control that real estate, but not FDR and his Communist spies at State.

Again, start a Patton thread if you must


----------



## Gadawg73

CrusaderFrank said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> The movie Patton really gives people the incorrect idea about the man, but at least watched the movie and learned that much about him.
> 
> If Patton had Omar Bradly's job, the US would have been in Berlin, Prague and Vienna months ahead of the Russians.
> 
> He wrote in his diary in August 44 that letting the Germans slip out of Falaise was one of the worst decisions in human history
> 
> He predicted Eisenhower would run for President.
> 
> He knew letting the Russians keep Eastern Europe was a strategic failure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The movie was great Frank as I love George C. Scott but I have read Wesley Clarks and Steven Zaloga's autobiography. I also have read the 850 page Eisenhower 1943-1945 at War by David Eisenhower. I have a vast WWII book collection as that is one of my hobbies.
> So we demand in words for Russia to leave eastern Europe and Stalin and his 90 intact divisions armed to the teeth say "yes sir, we will leave immediately".
> Frank believes that would have worked.
> Facts are that the Russians took 90K KIA and 250K wounded in 4 months taking Berlin. Germany took 5.5 million KIA in WWII, mostly to the Russians. Russia took 9 million KIA and how many more would they have taken in a fight with us? Us with NO allies, doing it alone.
> Every military General anywhere during WWII knew that if Patton was in charge there would be no cooperation between the allies.
> You do know that the English and the Russians were our allies Frank and many times they took as much or more territory than we did.
> Frank was for Patton adding another 150K KIA Americans to take Berlin, Prague and Vienna. No military leader anywhere has stated that it would have worked but even if it was attempted the 150K KIA would have happened.
> No one let the Russians "keep eastern Europe" Frank.
> The Russians TOOK eastern Europe. Spoils of war is horrible but reality is hard for ideologues to accept. We knew in 1941 what the deal would be.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You say you have books and I 'll take your word at it, but reading does not appear high up on your to do list.
> 
> I said Patton would have ended the war months earlier and gotten to Berlin, Prague and Vienna ahead of the Russians.  Do you want me to repeat that again?  How many more times must I post it before you get it?
> 
> FDR let politics run the war, he let Stalin take Berlin Prague and Vienna.
> 
> Patton, the Germans and most of the civilized world would rather have had the US and Brits control that real estate, but not FDR and his Communist spies at State.
> 
> Again, start a Patton thread if you must
Click to expand...


Conflict and Crisis by Robert Donovan is also good. My father was a member of the Truman Scholarship Review Committee and I have an autographed copy of this book. 
Patton would have had any chance of ending the war any sooner. He had far, far less equipment and men than the Russians and was outrunning his supplies and fuel just to make ground.
Take a good look at the Bulge KIA and triple that to do what you state.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Is the full extent of the damage inflicted by Communist spies at US State finally starting to set in?

They succeeded in handing China to Mao and Eastern Europe to Stalin.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Gadawg73 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The movie was great Frank as I love George C. Scott but I have read Wesley Clarks and Steven Zaloga's autobiography. I also have read the 850 page Eisenhower 1943-1945 at War by David Eisenhower. I have a vast WWII book collection as that is one of my hobbies.
> So we demand in words for Russia to leave eastern Europe and Stalin and his 90 intact divisions armed to the teeth say "yes sir, we will leave immediately".
> Frank believes that would have worked.
> Facts are that the Russians took 90K KIA and 250K wounded in 4 months taking Berlin. Germany took 5.5 million KIA in WWII, mostly to the Russians. Russia took 9 million KIA and how many more would they have taken in a fight with us? Us with NO allies, doing it alone.
> Every military General anywhere during WWII knew that if Patton was in charge there would be no cooperation between the allies.
> You do know that the English and the Russians were our allies Frank and many times they took as much or more territory than we did.
> Frank was for Patton adding another 150K KIA Americans to take Berlin, Prague and Vienna. No military leader anywhere has stated that it would have worked but even if it was attempted the 150K KIA would have happened.
> No one let the Russians "keep eastern Europe" Frank.
> The Russians TOOK eastern Europe. Spoils of war is horrible but reality is hard for ideologues to accept. We knew in 1941 what the deal would be.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You say you have books and I 'll take your word at it, but reading does not appear high up on your to do list.
> 
> I said Patton would have ended the war months earlier and gotten to Berlin, Prague and Vienna ahead of the Russians.  Do you want me to repeat that again?  How many more times must I post it before you get it?
> 
> FDR let politics run the war, he let Stalin take Berlin Prague and Vienna.
> 
> Patton, the Germans and most of the civilized world would rather have had the US and Brits control that real estate, but not FDR and his Communist spies at State.
> 
> Again, start a Patton thread if you must
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Conflict and Crisis by Robert Donovan is also good. My father was a member of the Truman Scholarship Review Committee and I have an autographed copy of this book.
> Patton would have had any chance of ending the war any sooner. He had far, far less equipment and men than the Russians and was outrunning his supplies and fuel just to make ground.
> Take a good look at the Bulge KIA and triple that to do what you state.
Click to expand...


Third time I'm mentioning it. 

Had it been Patton's call the gap would have been closed and the vast majority of Germans resistance in the west would have gone with it.

I know you hate reading, maybe watch the videos?

Falaise pocket - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Mark LaRochelle

editec said:


> That drunken piece of shit accused IKE of being a Commie symnpathizer.



When and where did McCarthy accuse Eisenhower of being a Communist sympathizer?

What is your source?


----------



## Gadawg73

CrusaderFrank said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> You say you have books and I 'll take your word at it, but reading does not appear high up on your to do list.
> 
> I said Patton would have ended the war months earlier and gotten to Berlin, Prague and Vienna ahead of the Russians.  Do you want me to repeat that again?  How many more times must I post it before you get it?
> 
> FDR let politics run the war, he let Stalin take Berlin Prague and Vienna.
> 
> Patton, the Germans and most of the civilized world would rather have had the US and Brits control that real estate, but not FDR and his Communist spies at State.
> 
> Again, start a Patton thread if you must
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Conflict and Crisis by Robert Donovan is also good. My father was a member of the Truman Scholarship Review Committee and I have an autographed copy of this book.
> Patton would have had any chance of ending the war any sooner. He had far, far less equipment and men than the Russians and was outrunning his supplies and fuel just to make ground.
> Take a good look at the Bulge KIA and triple that to do what you state.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Third time I'm mentioning it.
> 
> Had it been Patton's call the gap would have been closed and the vast majority of Germans resistance in the west would have gone with it.
> 
> I know you hate reading, maybe watch the videos?
> 
> Falaise pocket - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Click to expand...


You need to take a second look at your own link Frank. It doesn't make your point there bub.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Gadawg73 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Conflict and Crisis by Robert Donovan is also good. My father was a member of the Truman Scholarship Review Committee and I have an autographed copy of this book.
> Patton would have had any chance of ending the war any sooner. He had far, far less equipment and men than the Russians and was outrunning his supplies and fuel just to make ground.
> Take a good look at the Bulge KIA and triple that to do what you state.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Third time I'm mentioning it.
> 
> Had it been Patton's call the gap would have been closed and the vast majority of Germans resistance in the west would have gone with it.
> 
> I know you hate reading, maybe watch the videos?
> 
> Falaise pocket - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You need to take a second look at your own link Frank. It doesn't make your point there bub.
Click to expand...


No I don't.  That was just to show you what the Falaise Pocket was.

Again, start a Patton thread...ahh fuck it I will


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Mark LaRochelle said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> That drunken piece of shit accused IKE of being a Commie symnpathizer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When and where did McCarthy accuse Eisenhower of being a Communist sympathizer?
> 
> What is your source?
Click to expand...


Sources? Who needs sources? 

So far we've learned that McCarthy used his HUAC to Blacklist Zero Mostel and rail against fluoridated drinking water.

They keep running out of responses, fail to see the damage done by the Communist spies McCarthy tried to investigate, but never seem to run out of reasons why McCarthy was evil.

I mentioned once already that we need to understand how it is the Soviets programmed their Useful Idiots here to see if it is at all possible to undo the programming


----------



## JakeStarkey

CrusaderFrank said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> I will post this one more time, then let it go.  CrusanderFrank won't answer.
> 
> _Frank, read onse, because that is all I am going to post it (so I repeated it, sue me!). Patton could not have defeated the Russians:
> 
> 1. The German armed forces were shattered, demoralized, and would require at least (several years) to retrain, re-equip, and reinforce.
> 2. The British and the French would never have supported such an effort.
> 3. The U.S. had no training divisions available in the states while the Soviet forces were three times the size of the U.S. and had at least 90 divisions in training.
> 4. The first atomic demonstration was almost three months away.
> 5. The Japanese gave absolutely no indication they were going to give up in the next several years.
> 
> AND YOU, YOU STUPID *******, WANTED PATTON TO ATTACK THE RUSSIANS?_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First, stop imitating me, it's creepy.
> 
> Second, Patton is irrelevant to this thread.
> 
> Third, Patton disagreed with how the US and Brits prosecuted the war since August 1944 so by the time April 45 came it was obvious no one was listening to him and the USSR was going to be a problem.
> 
> Start a Patton thread if you must
Click to expand...


Frank, did you not bring up the Patton comment?  If you did, then your post above is just crap.  Here read:

Quote: Originally Posted by CrusaderFrank  //  Patton had the right idea how to handle the Soviets at the end of WWII. He considered the war a huge strategic FAILURE for the US and British because it left Berlin, Prague and Vienna in the "hands of the descendants of Genghis Khan" wheh the US could have captured those capitals.  //   And you can thank FDR taking advice from Alger Hiss (a Communist Spy) for that.

You can drop the Patton comment as fail if you wish.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

JakeStarkey said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> I will post this one more time, then let it go.  CrusanderFrank won't answer.
> 
> _Frank, read onse, because that is all I am going to post it (so I repeated it, sue me!). Patton could not have defeated the Russians:
> 
> 1. The German armed forces were shattered, demoralized, and would require at least (several years) to retrain, re-equip, and reinforce.
> 2. The British and the French would never have supported such an effort.
> 3. The U.S. had no training divisions available in the states while the Soviet forces were three times the size of the U.S. and had at least 90 divisions in training.
> 4. The first atomic demonstration was almost three months away.
> 5. The Japanese gave absolutely no indication they were going to give up in the next several years.
> 
> AND YOU, YOU STUPID *******, WANTED PATTON TO ATTACK THE RUSSIANS?_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First, stop imitating me, it's creepy.
> 
> Second, Patton is irrelevant to this thread.
> 
> Third, Patton disagreed with how the US and Brits prosecuted the war since August 1944 so by the time April 45 came it was obvious no one was listening to him and the USSR was going to be a problem.
> 
> Start a Patton thread if you must
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Frank, did you not bring up the Patton comment?  If you did, then your post above is just crap.  Here read:
> 
> Quote: Originally Posted by CrusaderFrank  //  Patton had the right idea how to handle the Soviets at the end of WWII. He considered the war a huge strategic FAILURE for the US and British because it left Berlin, Prague and Vienna in the "hands of the descendants of Genghis Khan" wheh the US could have captured those capitals.  //   And you can thank FDR taking advice from Alger Hiss (a Communist Spy) for that.
> 
> You can drop the Patton comment as fail if you wish.
Click to expand...


I started a Patton thread, Sparky. 

Take you nose out of Mao's Little Red Book and check in here once in a while


----------



## JakeStarkey

CrusaderFrank said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> First, stop imitating me, it's creepy.
> 
> Second, Patton is irrelevant to this thread.
> 
> Third, Patton disagreed with how the US and Brits prosecuted the war since August 1944 so by the time April 45 came it was obvious no one was listening to him and the USSR was going to be a problem.
> 
> Start a Patton thread if you must
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Frank, did you not bring up the Patton comment?  If you did, then your post above is just crap.  Here read:
> 
> Quote: Originally Posted by CrusaderFrank  //  Patton had the right idea how to handle the Soviets at the end of WWII. He considered the war a huge strategic FAILURE for the US and British because it left Berlin, Prague and Vienna in the "hands of the descendants of Genghis Khan" wheh the US could have captured those capitals.  //   And you can thank FDR taking advice from Alger Hiss (a Communist Spy) for that.
> 
> You can drop the Patton comment as fail if you wish.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I started a Patton thread, Sparky.
> 
> Take you nose out of Mao's Little Red Book and check in here once in a while
Click to expand...


I finished your Patton thread here.  Nothing more to say.  Thanks.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

JakeStarkey said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Frank, did you not bring up the Patton comment?  If you did, then your post above is just crap.  Here read:
> 
> Quote: Originally Posted by CrusaderFrank  //  Patton had the right idea how to handle the Soviets at the end of WWII. He considered the war a huge strategic FAILURE for the US and British because it left Berlin, Prague and Vienna in the "hands of the descendants of Genghis Khan" wheh the US could have captured those capitals.  //   And you can thank FDR taking advice from Alger Hiss (a Communist Spy) for that.
> 
> You can drop the Patton comment as fail if you wish.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I started a Patton thread, Sparky.
> 
> Take you nose out of Mao's Little Red Book and check in here once in a while
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I finished your Patton thread here.  Nothing more to say.  Thanks.
Click to expand...


I must have missed it.

Can you repost your thread ending thoughts?


----------



## JakeStarkey

Use the find program and search for Patton.  You will find what you want.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

JakeStarkey said:


> Use the find program and search for Patton.  You will find what you want.



Right

It must be right after the contrary "Blacklisted" footnotes you never posted and the repeatable laboratory experiments that show how a 200PPM increase in CO2 causes Global Warming.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Frank, your call and you offered nothing in substance.  This point is over, other than kicking the dead body of your argument.


----------



## Gadawg73

Mark LaRochelle said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> That drunken piece of shit accused IKE of being a Commie symnpathizer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When and where did McCarthy accuse Eisenhower of being a Communist sympathizer?
> 
> What is your source?
Click to expand...


Let us take a long, hard look at the facts of what McCarthy did state publicly about our military leaders:
On General George Marshall " a man steeped in falsehood".
Concerning General and President Dwight D. Eisenhower let us look at the facts:
When McCarthy, with nothing more than innuendo and hearsay, set out to expose communists in the Army Eisenhower decided this was enough. Eisenhower instructed his staff to present facts that McCarthy, through Roy Cohn, had petitioned the Army to award preferential treatment to an assistant, David Schine. Finding himself on the defensive, McCarthy demanded and threatened to subpoena notes of meetings between Eisenhower and the Army attempting to bolster his "communists in the Army" fraud.  Eisenhonwer established presidential precedent and invoked executive privilege in refusing to turn over the notes. McCarthy was advised by Schine and Cohn to use that as an admission that Eisenhower was hiding his sympathies with the communists in the Army because Ike claimed matters of national security might be breached if administration officials were forced to testify under oath. Ike robbed McCarthy the oppurtunity to contiunue his inquisition. After that, the Army hearings conducted by McCarthy degenerated into the fraud side show they really were.
In November 1953 McCarthy attacked Eisenhower and his administration on national television. He went off on an undisciplined slobbering tirade stating the administration was not acting to eliminate subversives from the administration and the government and that "America has been reduced to a state of whining and whimpering appeasement".
Off to a players' reunuion. Will be back later with more.


----------



## Toro

> By the end of the McCarthy hearings, the senator's career was over; before an audience that often numbered 20 million Americans, he came across as bullying and unscrupulous. Yet today, more and more conservative writers are trying to vindicate the late senator. Authors M. Stanton Evans and Ann Coulter, for example, have claimed that McCarthy was more right than wrong because he, along with dozens of other anticommunists, was correct that the government was riddled with spies.
> 
> The FBI agents who actually chased Soviet spies have a very different perspective.
> 
> Robert J. Lamphere, who participated in all the FBI's major spy cases during the McCarthy period, was one. Lamphere also was the FBI liaison to the U.S. Army's Signal Intelligence Service's Venona program, which was intercepting secret Soviet communications. He used leads from the intercepts to work cases involving notorious espionage figures such as Klaus Fuchs, Harry Gold, David Greenglass, Ethel and Julius Rosenberg and Kim Philby.
> 
> Lamphere (who died in 2002), told me in an interview that agents who worked counterintelligence were appalled that FBI director J. Edgar Hoover initially supported McCarthy. True enough, the Venona intercepts revealed that hundreds more Soviet spies had operated in the government than was believed at the time.
> 
> "The problem was that McCarthy lied about his information and figures," Lamphere said. "He made charges against people that weren't true. McCarthyism harmed the counterintelligence effort against the Soviet threat because of the revulsion it caused." ...
> 
> As his arrogance grew, McCarthy began accusing President Dwight D. Eisenhower of being soft on communists. Hoover realized the dance was over; just before the Army-McCarthy hearings started he ordered the bureau to cease helping the senator.
> 
> During the hearings, McCarthy failed to substantiate his claims that communists had penetrated the Army. He did, however, insinuate that Fred Fischer, a young lawyer at Hale and Dorr, the law firm representing the Army, was a communist sympathizer because he'd been a member of the National Lawyers Guild at Harvard Law School. Supreme Court Justice Arthur J. Goldberg had also been a member of the group, which was alleged to be a communist front.
> 
> A Senate committee concluded that McCarthy's behavior as a committee chairman was "inexcusable," "vulgar and insulting." On Dec. 2, 1954, the Senate voted 67-22 to censure him; on May 2, 1957, McCarthy, age 48, died of acute hepatitis, widely believed to be a result of his alcoholism.
> 
> As a top Justice Department attorney, John L. Martin prosecuted scores of spies during a long career, and read many of the FBI's most secret raw files on historic espionage cases, including the files on Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, Judith Coplon, Alger Hiss and Rudolph Abel. "While Venona later confirmed and expanded upon what the FBI knew about Soviet operations in the U.S.," Mr. Martin says, McCarthy used "the umbrella of national security to justify his outrageous practice of besmirching reputations of loyal Americans."
> 
> Efforts to vindicate McCarthy overlook the fact that he did not help the cause of dealing with the spy threat. Rather, he gave spy hunting a bad name. In sanctioning McCarthy's intimidating tactics and dishonest charges, revisionists dangerously invite history to be repeated.



The Real Joe McCarthy


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Toro said:


> By the end of the McCarthy hearings, the senator's career was over; before an audience that often numbered 20 million Americans, he came across as bullying and unscrupulous. Yet today, more and more conservative writers are trying to vindicate the late senator. Authors M. Stanton Evans and Ann Coulter, for example, have claimed that McCarthy was more right than wrong because he, along with dozens of other anticommunists, was correct that the government was riddled with spies.
> 
> The FBI agents who actually chased Soviet spies have a very different perspective.
> 
> Robert J. Lamphere, who participated in all the FBI's major spy cases during the McCarthy period, was one. Lamphere also was the FBI liaison to the U.S. Army's Signal Intelligence Service's Venona program, which was intercepting secret Soviet communications. He used leads from the intercepts to work cases involving notorious espionage figures such as Klaus Fuchs, Harry Gold, David Greenglass, Ethel and Julius Rosenberg and Kim Philby.
> 
> Lamphere (who died in 2002), told me in an interview that agents who worked counterintelligence were appalled that FBI director J. Edgar Hoover initially supported McCarthy. True enough, the Venona intercepts revealed that hundreds more Soviet spies had operated in the government than was believed at the time.
> 
> "The problem was that McCarthy lied about his information and figures," Lamphere said. "He made charges against people that weren't true. McCarthyism harmed the counterintelligence effort against the Soviet threat because of the revulsion it caused." ...
> 
> As his arrogance grew, McCarthy began accusing President Dwight D. Eisenhower of being soft on communists. Hoover realized the dance was over; just before the Army-McCarthy hearings started he ordered the bureau to cease helping the senator.
> 
> During the hearings, McCarthy failed to substantiate his claims that communists had penetrated the Army. He did, however, insinuate that Fred Fischer, a young lawyer at Hale and Dorr, the law firm representing the Army, was a communist sympathizer because he'd been a member of the National Lawyers Guild at Harvard Law School. Supreme Court Justice Arthur J. Goldberg had also been a member of the group, which was alleged to be a communist front.
> 
> A Senate committee concluded that McCarthy's behavior as a committee chairman was "inexcusable," "vulgar and insulting." On Dec. 2, 1954, the Senate voted 67-22 to censure him; on May 2, 1957, McCarthy, age 48, died of acute hepatitis, widely believed to be a result of his alcoholism.
> 
> As a top Justice Department attorney, John L. Martin prosecuted scores of spies during a long career, and read many of the FBI's most secret raw files on historic espionage cases, including the files on Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, Judith Coplon, Alger Hiss and Rudolph Abel. "While Venona later confirmed and expanded upon what the FBI knew about Soviet operations in the U.S.," Mr. Martin says, McCarthy used "the umbrella of national security to justify his outrageous practice of besmirching reputations of loyal Americans."
> 
> Efforts to vindicate McCarthy overlook the fact that he did not help the cause of dealing with the spy threat. Rather, he gave spy hunting a bad name. In sanctioning McCarthy's intimidating tactics and dishonest charges, revisionists dangerously invite history to be repeated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Real Joe McCarthy
Click to expand...


Yawn.

McCarthy was a US Senator not head of FBI, he got information from US State to the effect that there was a robust spying effort that was being allowed to continue and he wanted to know why. 

When you see the damage done by Soviet spies, making the US drop its backing of Shek in China in favor of Mao because Mao was "Democratic" and "Progressive" and then letting the Russians keep million of acres of prime real estate after WWII you have to ask, "What the fuck were we doing about Soviet spies twisting US policy?" and the answer apparently was "Protecting them"

Yes McCarthy went public...a year after the Soviets tried to reignite the fight for Berlin and 6 months before Mao ChiComs were killing US soldiers.

That's what matters to me.


----------



## Mark LaRochelle

Gadawg73 said:


> McCarthy ... called the CIA "a sinkhole of communists".



When and where did McCarthy call the CIA "a sinkhole of communists"? What is your source?

Unless I'm mistaken, your quote is not of McCarthy, but of Evan Thomas.


----------



## Mark LaRochelle

JakeStarkey said:


> Evans fails in an attempt to exculpate the man's unAmerican behavior in his search for communists and whatnots.



Your speculation about Evans' motives is, to put it mildly, mistaken. He does not attempt to exculpate McCarthy's behavior. He highlights McCarthy's missteps (all of which are well-known), but also reports the things McCarthy did right (which are much less well-known). Evans also documents the misdeeds of McCarthy's antagonists, which are generally ignored. The result is not an exculpation of McCarthy, but a detailed, factual recounting of what he and his opponents did, both good and bad.

By the way, what behavior of McCarthy's are you referring to as "unAmerican"?



JakeStarkey said:


> His own party and its members pulled him down and had him censored.



That's censured, not "censored." And in McCarthy's case (unlike that of, say, Charlie Rangel), the official language was softened from "censure" to "condemn."


----------



## Gadawg73

Mark LaRochelle said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> McCarthy ... called the CIA "a sinkhole of communists".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When and where did McCarthy call the CIA "a sinkhole of communists"? What is your source?
> 
> Unless I'm mistaken, your quote is not of McCarthy, but of Evan Thomas.
Click to expand...


Mark, do you deny that McCarthy claimed that senior members of founding members of the CIA were security risks? Are you denying that Cord Meyer of Operation Mockingbird was one of these and McCarthy told Richard Helms, deputy of Office of Policy Coordination (OPC) that McCarthy had accused Meyer to him of being a communist and that that the "CIA is a sinkhole of communists" and that he intended to root out a hundred of them at CIA? Mark, are you claiming that Helms is a liar and that the FBI did not refuse to give Meyer a security clearance? Are you claiming that the FBI had ANY evidence, and if they did, how come they never offered any? Mark, are you claiming that Allan Dulles, the first and longest sitting head of the CIA, a man that stood up to the FBI and McCarthy by denying FBI interrogation of Meyer, was wrong and was covering for communitsts in the CIA? Are you claiming that Frank Wisener, the head of OSS in eastern Europe in WWII  and the head of Directorate of Plans in CIA in the 50s would make up that he also was told that by FBI was told by McCarthy that there were over 100 communists in CIA? 
Are you aware that Wisener also stood up to McCarthy and publicly told him that the FBI would not be allowed to interrogate Meyer.

All of the above is documented by Dulles, Meyer and Wisener. What about any of their documented claims is untrue and what evidence do you offer to refute their documented accounts?


----------



## Mark LaRochelle

Gadawg73 said:


> G. David Schine was... drafted into the military



Yes, Schine was selected by his local draft board in New York City, which was highly sympathetic to some of the people McCarthy was investigating and extremely hostile to McCarthy. Schine was drafted in the nick of time, just before his 26th birthday, upon which he would have become ineligible.

Schine's selection followed a campaign by influential left-wing gossip columnist Drew Pearson demanding that Schine be drafted. Pearson had had success with this tactic previously, when he similarly campaigned to have HUAC chief investigator Robert Stripling drafted, a campaign that likewise ended in his target being drafted.

Schine, a Harvard graduate who had previously served in the Army Transport Service after being classified 4F due to a slipped disk in his back, was drafted as a buck private, denied an opportunity to attend Officer Candidate School.



Gadawg73 said:


> Roy Cohn attempted to get the Army to allow his camping buddy to stay close to home the Army said no.



The use of the smear term "camping buddy" to insinuate that Schine was gay is off the mark. Cohn's interest in Schine, writes Neil Miller in _Out of the Past: Gay and Lesbian History from 1869 to the Present_, &#8220;may *or may not* have had a homosexual element to it.&#8221; [Empasis added] &#8220;Cohn's obsession with Mr. Schine, in light of what became known about Cohn in the 1980's, is one thing,&#8221; observed Tom Wolfe in _The New York Times_. &#8220;But so far as Mr. Schine is concerned, there has never been the slightest evidence that he was anything but a good-looking kid who was having a helluva good time in a helluva good cause.&#8221; Even the &#8220;Encyclopedia of Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender, & Queer Culture&#8221; admits Schine was &#8220;heterosexual.&#8221;

But did Cohn really attempt to get the Army to allow Schine to stay close to home? Did the Army really say no? Before he was drafted, Schine had been traveling from Washington, DC to First Army Headquarters in New York City as part of the Fort Monmouth investigation. After he was drafted, Schine was stationed at Fort Dix, NJ, thus shortening his weekend trips to NYC from more than 200 miles to less than 75 miles.



Gadawg73 said:


> Cohn stated "I will wreck the Army".



When and where did Cohn state this? What is your source?



Gadawg73 said:


> Cohn and McCarthy publicly claimed the Army was holding Schine "hostage in an attempt to stop investigations into communists in the Army"



Yes, and the Army-McCarthy hearings under Senator Mundt concluded that this was indeed the case. As Secretary of the Army Robert Stevens admitted, if Schine &#8220;hadn't been working for McCarthy, he probably never would have been drafted.&#8221;

Briefly: In 1952, ten Signal Corps Intelligence Agency (SCIA) officials at the Pentagon, headed by Col. Jim Allen, SCIA executive officer, petitioned Congress to investigate what they charged was pro-Communist infiltration of (and disappearance of classified materials from) SCIA.

Capt. Benjamin Sheehan of G-2 (Army counterintelligence) headed a team ordered by First Army headquarters in New York to investigate &#8220;an espionage ring at Fort Monmouth,&#8221; N.J. This Army Signal Corps base was the center of activity of the Rosenberg ring, including agents Morton Sobell, Joel Barr, Alfred Sarant, Klaus Fuchs, Harry Gold and David Greenglass. The G-2 probe reported &#8220;an immensely large number of employees of questionable loyalty&#8221; at the complex.

Maj. Gen. Kirke B. Lawton, base commander of Fort Monmouth, told McCarthy staffer Jim Juliana, an ex-FBI agent, that he had recommended the suspension of 44 security suspects identified by G-2, but that the Army Loyalty and Screening Board had reversed his decisions, clearing all 44, preventing the suspension of a single suspect. Lawton said he got action only after McCarthy opened his Fort Monmouth inquest, testifying in executive session before the McCarthy subcommittee that he had gotten more results in &#8220;the last two weeks&#8221; than &#8220;the past 4 years.&#8221; For his honesty, the Army relieved Lawton of his command.

It was during these hearings that Pearson began agitating for the drafting of Schine. When McCarthy made it clear that he intended to subpoena the members of the security board that had reversed the suspensions at Fort Monmouth, the White House began circulating rumors that the whole Fort Monmouth inquiry was a sham, cooked up by McCarthy and Cohn to pressure the Army into giving Schine special treatment. Anonymous leaks to that effect appeared in the columns of liberal Washington journalists Joseph and Stewart Alsop, blood relatives of Eleanor as well as Franklin Roosevelt.

In its final report on the Army-McCarthy hearings, the Senate concluded that &#8220;the investigation at Fort Monmouth was not devised or conducted as a leverage to secure preferential treatment for G. David Schine,&#8221; but rather that Secretary Stevens and Army counsel John Adams &#8220;made efforts to terminate or influence the investigation and hearings at Fort Monmouth,&#8221; adding that Adams &#8220;made vigorous and diligent efforts when the subpoenas were issued for the Army Loyalty and Screening Board to halt this action by means of personal appeals to certain members of this committee.&#8221; 




Gadawg73 said:


> How come McCarthy never revealed who those commies were in the Army?



Did McCarthy state that there were Communists in the Army? When and where did he say that? What is your source?


----------



## Mark LaRochelle

Father Time said:


> Venona didn't back up all of Mccarthy's accusations.
> 
> Return to Responses, Reflections and Occasional Papers // Return to Historical Writings



That's true. McCarthy's files (given to Evans by surviving McCarthy staffer Jim Juliana, an ex-FBI agent) included files from Truman's loyalty review boards, the Civil Service Commission, FBI, State Department Security and Army Counterintelligence, but not Venona.

Furthermore, the Venona traffic identifies only people who had covert relationships with Soviet intelligence. McCarthy's suspects were not necessarily spies but, as he said, Communists or fellow travelers (thus ineligible for Federal employment under the Truman loyalty order). So one would not expect McCarthy's suspects to turn up in the Venona decrypts.

Nevertheless, among his suspects, he managed to identify a surprising number of officials in sensitive positions who would be implicated in these cables in covert relationships with Soviet intelligence. Among these were:

*Lauchlin Currie, administrative assistant to President Roosevelt
*Philip Keeney, Office of Strategic Services (OSS)
*Cedric Belfrage, OSS
*Duncan Lee, OSS
*Leonard Mins, OSS
*Franz Neuman, OSS
*David Karr, Office of War Information
*Mary Jane Keeney,United Nations (UN)
*Virginius Frank Coe, Secretary, International Monetary Fund; Director, Division of Monetary Research, U.S. Treasury; Technical Secretary, Bretton Woods Conference
*Solomon Adler, attache to China, U.S. Treasury
*William Ludwig Ullman, delegate, UN Charter Conference and Bretton Woods Conference
*Nathan Gregory Silvermaster, U.S. Treasury; War Assets Administration; Board of Economic Warfare (BEW)
*Harold Glasser, Vice-Chairman, War Production Board; U.S. Treasury Representative, UN Relief and Rehabilitation Administration, Allied High Commission in Italy
*Allan Rosenberg, BEW; Foreign Economic Administration; Senate Civil Liberties Committee; Chief, Economic Institution Staff, Foreign Economic Administration; Counsel, National Labor Relations Board
*T.A. Bisson, BEW

It's true that most of McCarthy's suspects don't appear in these cables. But that doesn't mean they weren't Communists, fellow travelers, or even spies. According to the NSA's "Introductory History of VENONA and Guide to the Translations":

"Of the message traffic from the KGB New York office to Moscow, 49 percent of the 1944 messages and 15 percent of the 1943 messages were readable, but this was true of only 1.8 percent of the 1942 messages. For the 1945 KGB Washington office to Moscow messages, only 1.5 percent were readable. About 50 percent of the 1943 GRU-Naval Washington to Moscow messages were read, but none from any other year."

The sources you link to above, Professors Haynes and Klehr, agree. Because "cryptanalysts in the Venona Project deciphered only a fraction of the Soviet intelligence traffic," they write, it is "only logical to conclude that many additional agents were discussed in the thousands of unread messages. Some were identified from other sources." Moreover, Haynes and Klehr provide a list of 139 persons for whom evidence for covert relationships with Soviet intelligence, they write, "comes from sources other than the Venona decryptions," including "defectors' testimony and the confessions of Soviet spies."

It was these confessions and testimony of defectors -- Bentley, Chambers, Gouzenko, Budenz, Massing, Krivitsky Kravchenko, etc. -- that filled McCarthy's files and provided the basis for the lists of suspects he submitted to the Senate for investigation.


----------



## Mark LaRochelle

Gadawg73 said:


> McCarthy forged Admiral Nimitz' signature on a letter of commendation. That he admitted to later in life.



When and where did McCarthy admit that he had forged Nimitz' signature? What is your source?


----------



## Gadawg73

Mark LaRochelle said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> G. David Schine was... drafted into the military
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, Schine was selected by his local draft board in New York City, which was highly sympathetic to some of the people McCarthy was investigating and extremely hostile to McCarthy. Schine was drafted in the nick of time, just before his 26th birthday, upon which he would have become ineligible.
> 
> Schine's selection followed a campaign by influential left-wing gossip columnist Drew Pearson demanding that Schine be drafted. Pearson had had success with this tactic previously, when he similarly campaigned to have HUAC chief investigator Robert Stripling drafted, a campaign that likewise ended in his target being drafted.
> 
> Schine, a Harvard graduate who had previously served in the Army Transport Service after being classified 4F due to a slipped disk in his back, was drafted as a buck private, denied an opportunity to attend Officer Candidate School.
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Roy Cohn attempted to get the Army to allow his camping buddy to stay close to home the Army said no.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The use of the smear term "camping buddy" to insinuate that Schine was gay is off the mark. Cohn's interest in Schine, writes Neil Miller in _Out of the Past: Gay and Lesbian History from 1869 to the Present_, &#8220;may or may not have had a homosexual element to it.&#8221; [Empasis added] &#8220;Cohn's obsession with Mr. Schine, in light of what became known about Cohn in the 1980's, is one thing,&#8221; observed Tom Wolfe in _The New York Times_. &#8220;But so far as Mr. Schine is concerned, there has never been the slightest evidence that he was anything but a good-looking kid who was having a helluva good time in a helluva good cause.&#8221; Even the &#8220;Encyclopedia of Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender, & Queer Culture&#8221; admits Schine was &#8220;heterosexual.&#8221;
> 
> But did Cohn really attempt to get the Army to allow Schine to stay close to home? Did the Army really say no? Before he was drafted, Schine had been traveling from Washington, DC to First Army Headquarters in New York City as part of the Fort Monmouth investigation. After he was drafted, Schine was stationed at Fort Dix, NJ, thus shortening his weekend trips to NYC from more than 200 miles to less than 75 miles.
> 
> 
> 
> When and where did Cohn state this? What is your source?
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Cohn and McCarthy publicly claimed the Army was holding Schine "hostage in an attempt to stop investigations into communists in the Army"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, and the Army-McCarthy hearings under Senator Mundt concluded that this was indeed the case. As Secretary of the Army Robert Stevens admitted, if Schine &#8220;hadn't been working for McCarthy, he probably never would have been drafted.&#8221;
> 
> Briefly: In 1952, ten Signal Corps Intelligence Agency (SCIA) officials at the Pentagon, headed by Col. Jim Allen, SCIA executive officer, petitioned Congress to investigate what they charged was pro-Communist infiltration of (and disappearance of classified materials from) SCIA.
> 
> Capt. Benjamin Sheehan of G-2 (Army counterintelligence) headed a team ordered by First Army headquarters in New York to investigate &#8220;an espionage ring at Fort Monmouth,&#8221; N.J. This Army Signal Corps base was the center of activity of the Rosenberg ring, including agents Morton Sobell, Joel Barr, Alfred Sarant, Klaus Fuchs, Harry Gold and David Greenglass. The G-2 probe reported &#8220;an immensely large number of employees of questionable loyalty&#8221; at the complex.
> 
> Maj. Gen. Kirke B. Lawton, base commander of Fort Monmouth, told McCarthy staffer Jim Juliana, an ex-FBI agent, that he had recommended the suspension of 44 security suspects identified by G-2, but that the Army Loyalty and Screening Board had reversed his decisions, clearing all 44, preventing the suspension of a single suspect. Lawton said he got action only after McCarthy opened his Fort Monmouth inquest, testifying in executive session before the McCarthy subcommittee that he had gotten more results in &#8220;the last two weeks&#8221; than &#8220;the past 4 years.&#8221; For his honesty, the Army relieved Lawton of his command.
> 
> It was during these hearings that Pearson began agitating for the drafting of Schine. When McCarthy made it clear that he intended to subpoena the members of the security board that had reversed the suspensions at Fort Monmouth, the White House began circulating rumors that the whole Fort Monmouth inquiry was a sham, cooked up by McCarthy and Cohn to pressure the Army into giving Schine special treatment. Anonymous leaks to that effect appeared in the columns of liberal Washington journalists Joseph and Stewart Alsop, blood relatives of Eleanor as well as Franklin Roosevelt.
> 
> In its final report on the Army-McCarthy hearings, the Senate concluded that &#8220;the investigation at Fort Monmouth was not devised or conducted as a leverage to secure preferential treatment for G. David Schine,&#8221; but rather that Secretary Stevens and Army counsel John Adams &#8220;made efforts to terminate or influence the investigation and hearings at Fort Monmouth,&#8221; adding that Adams &#8220;made vigorous and diligent efforts when the subpoenas were issued for the Army Loyalty and Screening Board to halt this action by means of personal appeals to certain members of this committee.&#8221;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> How come McCarthy never revealed who those commies were in the Army?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Did McCarthy state that there were Communists in the Army? When and where did he say that? What is your source?
Click to expand...


"Questionable loyalty" What bull shit!
Accusations were made up. This entire BS was made up.
Name ONE employee that a G-2 probe named that had ANY EVIDENCE. Accordingly, you know, I know, Stevie Wonder can see Fort Monmouth was a crock of shit. 
Schine was drafted into the Army in November 1953.
Schine worked for McCarthy in the Army hearings in 1954.
I could care less if Schine, Cohn, McCarthy, Elton John or anyone is gay.
Are you claiming with a straight face after all the allegations that you just threw at the wall to attempt to see if any stick that Joe McCarthy never thought and stated "communists are in the Army"?
WTF were all the questionable loyalty, loyalty oaths, Rosenberg spy ring operatives at Army Signal Corps, "espionage rings at Fort Monmouth" and all of the other allegations made if McCarthy never belived there were any communists in the Army?
You speak out of both sides of your mouth and play both sides of the fence. 
Which is it? Did McCarthy believe there were communists in the Army or did he not believe it? If he didn't then why all the allegations that you cut and pasted?


----------



## Mark LaRochelle

Gadawg73 said:


> We damn well knew since the late 30s, had intelligence operations worldwide, state side AND IN THE GOVERNMENT, working to gather intelligence and turn operatives.
> McCarthy compromised those operations with his Hollywood performance.



Well, Krivitsky reported the presence of agents in the State Department and Chambers revealed the existence of the Ware group to Berle in 1939, but the FBI didn't find out about that until 1942. There was no corroboration until the defections of Gouzenko and Bentley in 1945, upon which investigation began in earnest. To save itself political embarrassment, the Truman administration thwarted investigation at every turn, from _Amerasia_, to the 1946-47 grand jury, to the stonewalling doctrine of "executive privilege."

Truman flew the canard that McCarthy's investigations were compromising ongoing FBI investigations twice, once in the case of Victor Perlo, and once in the case of Harry Dexter White. The FBI categorically denied such claims. In the case of White, Truman claimed that his promotion of White from Treasury to the IMF was in cooperation with an FBI investigation. Hoover's response was unequivocal: At no time was the FBI a party to an agreement to promote Harry Dexter White and at no time did the FBI give its approval to such an agreement." Not only was White's promotion not in furtherance of the FBI's investigation, it actually hindered it. Truman had moved White to the IMF, said Hoover, "whose premises are extraterritorial, and the FBI does not have any right to follow any ... person onto (its) property. ...We were certainly hampered" by this promotion.


----------



## Mark LaRochelle

Gadawg73 said:


> Hoover  publicly called them "Wisners gang of weirdos".



Well, if Hoover did that publicly, there should be a public record. When and where did Hoover publicly call the OPC "Wisners gang of weirdos?"


----------



## JakeStarkey

Mark LaRochelle said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> G. David Schine was... drafted into the military
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, Schine was selected by his local draft board in New York City, which was highly sympathetic to some of the people McCarthy was investigating and extremely hostile to McCarthy. Schine was drafted in the nick of time, just before his 26th birthday, upon which he would have become ineligible.
> 
> Schine's selection followed a campaign by influential left-wing gossip columnist Drew Pearson demanding that Schine be drafted. Pearson had had success with this tactic previously, when he similarly campaigned to have HUAC chief investigator Robert Stripling drafted, a campaign that likewise ended in his target being drafted.
> 
> Schine, a Harvard graduate who had previously served in the Army Transport Service after being classified 4F due to a slipped disk in his back, was drafted as a buck private, denied an opportunity to attend Officer Candidate School.
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Roy Cohn attempted to get the Army to allow his camping buddy to stay close to home the Army said no.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The use of the smear term "camping buddy" to insinuate that Schine was gay is off the mark. Cohn's interest in Schine, writes Neil Miller in _Out of the Past: Gay and Lesbian History from 1869 to the Present_, may or may not have had a homosexual element to it. [Empasis added] Cohn's obsession with Mr. Schine, in light of what became known about Cohn in the 1980's, is one thing, observed Tom Wolfe in _The New York Times_. But so far as Mr. Schine is concerned, there has never been the slightest evidence that he was anything but a good-looking kid who was having a helluva good time in a helluva good cause. Even the Encyclopedia of Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender, & Queer Culture admits Schine was heterosexual.
> 
> But did Cohn really attempt to get the Army to allow Schine to stay close to home? Did the Army really say no? Before he was drafted, Schine had been traveling from Washington, DC to First Army Headquarters in New York City as part of the Fort Monmouth investigation. After he was drafted, Schine was stationed at Fort Dix, NJ, thus shortening his weekend trips to NYC from more than 200 miles to less than 75 miles.
> 
> 
> 
> When and where did Cohn state this? What is your source?
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Cohn and McCarthy publicly claimed the Army was holding Schine "hostage in an attempt to stop investigations into communists in the Army"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, and the Army-McCarthy hearings under Senator Mundt concluded that this was indeed the case. As Secretary of the Army Robert Stevens admitted, if Schine hadn't been working for McCarthy, he probably never would have been drafted.
> 
> Briefly: In 1952, ten Signal Corps Intelligence Agency (SCIA) officials at the Pentagon, headed by Col. Jim Allen, SCIA executive officer, petitioned Congress to investigate what they charged was pro-Communist infiltration of (and disappearance of classified materials from) SCIA.
> 
> Capt. Benjamin Sheehan of G-2 (Army counterintelligence) headed a team ordered by First Army headquarters in New York to investigate an espionage ring at Fort Monmouth, N.J. This Army Signal Corps base was the center of activity of the Rosenberg ring, including agents Morton Sobell, Joel Barr, Alfred Sarant, Klaus Fuchs, Harry Gold and David Greenglass. The G-2 probe reported an immensely large number of employees of questionable loyalty at the complex.
> 
> Maj. Gen. Kirke B. Lawton, base commander of Fort Monmouth, told McCarthy staffer Jim Juliana, an ex-FBI agent, that he had recommended the suspension of 44 security suspects identified by G-2, but that the Army Loyalty and Screening Board had reversed his decisions, clearing all 44, preventing the suspension of a single suspect. Lawton said he got action only after McCarthy opened his Fort Monmouth inquest, testifying in executive session before the McCarthy subcommittee that he had gotten more results in the last two weeks than the past 4 years. For his honesty, the Army relieved Lawton of his command.
> 
> It was during these hearings that Pearson began agitating for the drafting of Schine. When McCarthy made it clear that he intended to subpoena the members of the security board that had reversed the suspensions at Fort Monmouth, the White House began circulating rumors that the whole Fort Monmouth inquiry was a sham, cooked up by McCarthy and Cohn to pressure the Army into giving Schine special treatment. Anonymous leaks to that effect appeared in the columns of liberal Washington journalists Joseph and Stewart Alsop, blood relatives of Eleanor as well as Franklin Roosevelt.
> 
> In its final report on the Army-McCarthy hearings, the Senate concluded that the investigation at Fort Monmouth was not devised or conducted as a leverage to secure preferential treatment for G. David Schine, but rather that Secretary Stevens and Army counsel John Adams made efforts to terminate or influence the investigation and hearings at Fort Monmouth, adding that Adams made vigorous and diligent efforts when the subpoenas were issued for the Army Loyalty and Screening Board to halt this action by means of personal appeals to certain members of this committee.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> How come McCarthy never revealed who those commies were in the Army?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Did McCarthy state that there were Communists in the Army? When and where did he say that? What is your source?
Click to expand...


The irony of Schine being "abused" by his political opposition as McCarthy pilloried his political enemies, and then having the defenders of the Army attacked by the McCarthyites makes one laugh.  As if Eisenhower on one side and McCarthy on the other side somehow  balances the equation of political attack and defense.  If the question is the integrity of Joe versus that of Ike's Army, well, "go Black and Gold!"


----------



## Mark LaRochelle

Gadawg73 said:


> Was Winston Churchill also the greatest asset the communists ever had?
> He was also at Yalta.



At Yalta, on February 8, 1945 at 3:30 pm, Stalin and Roosevelt met privately for 30 minutes. During this meeting, they made a secret agreement (specifically excluded from the final communiqué) in which FDR ceded to Moscow rights to the main Manchurian railroad, the port of Dairen and a Soviet naval base at Port Arthur. Churchill was not informed.



Gadawg73 said:


> FDR handed nothing to no one.



In a secret codicil to Yalta, FDR ceded eastern Poland to Stalin, essentially ratifying what British Foreign Secretary Sir Anthony Eden called the "Ribbentrop-Molotov" linethe deal Stalin had made with Hitler in the secret protocols of the Nazi-Soviet pact. Another secret agreement gave the Soviet Union three votes in the UN to one for the U.S. Yet another "secret codicil," added on March 31, would force the "repatriation" of some two million refugees in the West to the Soviet zone for slave labor or death in the Gulag.



Gadawg73 said:


> Another 500K KIA and 1 million injuries was the low ball estimate of a war over eastern Europe with the Ruskies.
> Patton was all for it.



In 1945, the US had the A-bomb; the Soviets did not. Virtually all those and casualties would have been Soviet. Patton believed that Stalin would have stood down if the US had stood firm.


----------



## Mark LaRochelle

HUGGY said:


> You and every American should thank their lucky stars that the commies got China.



That's the most bloodthirsty thing I ever read. Do you think we should also celebrate the holocaust?



HUGGY said:


> Can you imagine a China with TWICE it's population?



Why do you think a free China would have a larger population? Sure, 60 million people would not have been murdered, but the birth rate would have been much lower for a long time: in Communist China, the fertility rate is now 1.23 live births per woman; in Taiwan it's only 1.14; in Hong Kong 0.97.



HUGGY said:


> Do you think the social changes achieved by China would have occurred in a society like ours?



If you're referring to mass murder and slave labor, then no.


----------



## Mark LaRochelle

HUGGY said:


> China was the worlds biggest train wreck waiting to happen.



And yet we helped defend China from the Japanese throughout World War II.



HUGGY said:


> I know YOU think WE should have backed Taiwan against the mainland.



Wait, there was a war between Taiwan and mainland China? I must have missed that.


----------



## Mark LaRochelle

Gadawg73 said:


> Again, you fail to see WHO did not want to police eastern Europe and fight the Russians.
> 
> That man was General Dwight D. Eisenhower.



By the time Ike was in a position to set policy, the Soviets already had the A-bomb, making their occupation of Eastern Europe a _fait accompli_. Truman had the opportunity to liberate millions of his fellow human beings. He chose not to.


----------



## Mark LaRochelle

HUGGY said:


> China was none of our business.



Even during World War II when we helped defend China from the Japanese?


----------



## Mark LaRochelle

Gadawg73 said:


> Mark LaRochelle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> editec said:
> 
> 
> 
> That drunken piece of shit accused IKE of being a Commie symnpathizer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When and where did McCarthy accuse Eisenhower of being a Communist sympathizer?
> 
> What is your source?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Let us take a long, hard look at the facts of what McCarthy did state publicly about our military leaders:
> On General George Marshall " a man steeped in falsehood".
> Concerning General and President Dwight D. Eisenhower let us look at the facts:
> When McCarthy, with nothing more than innuendo and hearsay, set out to expose communists in the Army Eisenhower decided this was enough. Eisenhower instructed his staff to present facts that McCarthy, through Roy Cohn, had petitioned the Army to award preferential treatment to an assistant, David Schine. Finding himself on the defensive, McCarthy demanded and threatened to subpoena notes of meetings between Eisenhower and the Army attempting to bolster his "communists in the Army" fraud.  Eisenhonwer established presidential precedent and invoked executive privilege in refusing to turn over the notes. McCarthy was advised by Schine and Cohn to use that as an admission that Eisenhower was hiding his sympathies with the communists in the Army because Ike claimed matters of national security might be breached if administration officials were forced to testify under oath. Ike robbed McCarthy the oppurtunity to contiunue his inquisition. After that, the Army hearings conducted by McCarthy degenerated into the fraud side show they really were.
> In November 1953 McCarthy attacked Eisenhower and his administration on national television. He went off on an undisciplined slobbering tirade stating the administration was not acting to eliminate subversives from the administration and the government and that "America has been reduced to a state of whining and whimpering appeasement".
> Off to a players' reunuion. Will be back later with more.
Click to expand...


You didn't post when and where McCarthy accused Ike of being a Communist sympathizer, nor did you post your source. Are you retracting that charge?


----------



## Mark LaRochelle

Gadawg73 said:


> Mark LaRochelle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> McCarthy ... called the CIA "a sinkhole of communists".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When and where did McCarthy call the CIA "a sinkhole of communists"? What is your source?
> 
> Unless I'm mistaken, your quote is not of McCarthy, but of Evan Thomas.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Mark, do you deny that McCarthy claimed that senior members of founding members of the CIA were security risks? Are you denying that Cord Meyer of Operation Mockingbird was one of these and McCarthy told Richard Helms, deputy of Office of Policy Coordination (OPC) that McCarthy had accused Meyer to him of being a communist and that that the "CIA is a sinkhole of communists" and that he intended to root out a hundred of them at CIA? Mark, are you claiming that Helms is a liar and that the FBI did not refuse to give Meyer a security clearance? Are you claiming that the FBI had ANY evidence, and if they did, how come they never offered any? Mark, are you claiming that Allan Dulles, the first and longest sitting head of the CIA, a man that stood up to the FBI and McCarthy by denying FBI interrogation of Meyer, was wrong and was covering for communitsts in the CIA? Are you claiming that Frank Wisener, the head of OSS in eastern Europe in WWII  and the head of Directorate of Plans in CIA in the 50s would make up that he also was told that by FBI was told by McCarthy that there were over 100 communists in CIA?
> Are you aware that Wisener also stood up to McCarthy and publicly told him that the FBI would not be allowed to interrogate Meyer.
> 
> All of the above is documented by Dulles, Meyer and Wisener. What about any of their documented claims is untrue and what evidence do you offer to refute their documented accounts?
Click to expand...


You did not post when and where McCarthy called the CIA "a sinkhole of communists," nor did you post your source. Are you retracting that charge?


----------



## Mark LaRochelle

Gadawg73 said:


> "Questionable loyalty" What bull shit!
> Accusations were made up. This entire BS was made up.



Are you alleging that Col. Allen and his fellow SCIA officers made false charges, or that Capt. Sheehan and his G-2 team falsified their report on Fort Monmouth? These are serious charges. What is your evidence?



Gadawg73 said:


> Name ONE employee that a G-2 probe named that had ANY EVIDENCE.



Well, it's hard to pick just one, but let's take Aaron Coleman. He had been a City College of New York classmate of Julius Rosenberg, Morton Sobell, etc. Ex-Communist CCNY alum Nathan Sussman testified that Coleman had been a fellow member there of the Young Communist League, along with Rosenberg et al. Rosenberg testified that he had been in contact with Coleman at Fort Monmouth. In 1946, security agents searched his rooms, finding more than 40 official papers, some highly confidential. Coleman's roommate at the time, Jack Okun, would be suspended from Fort Monmouth on security grounds in 1949. Any one of these associations should have rendered Coleman ineligible for employment at a Signals Corps base under the Truman loyalty order of 1947. Yet he was still working at Fort Monmouth when the McCarthy inquiry began in 1953.



Gadawg73 said:


> Accordingly, you know, I know, Stevie Wonder can see Fort Monmouth was a crock of shit.



If you mean that security there was dangerously lax, you are correct.



Gadawg73 said:


> Did McCarthy believe there were communists in the Army or did he not believe it? If he didn't then why all the allegations that you cut and pasted?



McCarthy heard serious allegations from Allen of SCIA, Sheehan of G-2, Lawton, base commander at Fort Monmouth, and Andrew Reid, chief of security there. He was in the process of investigating those allegations (seeking subpoenas of the security review board members) when the Army accused him of cooking up the whole Fort Monmouth inquiry as a way of pressuring it to grant favored treatment to Schine -- thus pre-empting the Fort Monmouth investigation with the Army-McCarthy hearings, investigating McCarthy himself.

I notice that you did not post when and where Cohn stated "I will wreck the Army," nor when and where McCarthy asserted the presence of Communists in the Army; nor did you post your sources. Are you retracting these charges?


----------



## Gadawg73

Mark LaRochelle said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> "Questionable loyalty" What bull shit!
> Accusations were made up. This entire BS was made up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you alleging that Col. Allen and his fellow SCIA officers made false charges, or that Capt. Sheehan and his G-2 team falsified their report on Fort Monmouth? These are serious charges. What is your evidence?
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Name ONE employee that a G-2 probe named that had ANY EVIDENCE.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, it's hard to pick just one, but let's take Aaron Coleman. He had been a City College of New York classmate of Julius Rosenberg, Morton Sobell, etc. Ex-Communist CCNY alum Nathan Sussman testified that Coleman had been a fellow member there of the Young Communist League, along with Rosenberg et al. Rosenberg testified that he had been in contact with Coleman at Fort Monmouth. In 1946, security agents searched his rooms, finding more than 40 official papers, some highly confidential. Coleman's roommate at the time, Jack Okun, would be suspended from Fort Monmouth on security grounds in 1949. Any one of these associations should have rendered Coleman ineligible for employment at a Signals Corps base under the Truman loyalty order of 1947. Yet he was still working at Fort Monmouth when the McCarthy inquiry began in 1953.
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Accordingly, you know, I know, Stevie Wonder can see Fort Monmouth was a crock of shit.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If you mean that security there was dangerously lax, you are correct.
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did McCarthy believe there were communists in the Army or did he not believe it? If he didn't then why all the allegations that you cut and pasted?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> McCarthy heard serious allegations from Allen of SCIA, Sheehan of G-2, Lawton, base commander at Fort Monmouth, and Andrew Reid, chief of security there. He was in the process of investigating those allegations (seeking subpoenas of the security review board members) when the Army accused him of cooking up the whole Fort Monmouth inquiry as a way of pressuring it to grant favored treatment to Schine -- thus pre-empting the Fort Monmouth investigation with the Army-McCarthy hearings, investigating McCarthy himself.
> 
> I notice that you did not post when and where Cohn stated "I will wreck the Army," nor when and where McCarthy asserted the presence of Communists in the Army; nor did you post your sources. Are you retracting these charges?
Click to expand...



McCarthy told his shrink, hairdresser and bartender on December 19, 1953. 

Under your thesis McCarthy had "serious allegations" yet never "asserted the presence of Communists in the Army"?
They must not have been very serious or outright bogus, which you know they were, if McCarthy never "asserted the presence of Communists in the Army.

The shrink was killed by a mysterious drive by shooting. The FBI is investigating the killings of Tupac Shakur and The Notorious B. I. G. as possibly being the same shooter. 
The hairdresser was the grand neice of Mati Hari. After her tips were not up to par she turned to communism because beards and haircuts were the Bloshevik style thus increasing her business 33% off the bat. 
The bartender was shot on sight in Moscow in a Stolichnaya smuggling deal gone bad.


----------



## editec

> In 1945, the US had the A-bomb; the Soviets did not. Virtually all those and casualties would have been Soviet. Patton believed that Stalin would have stood down if the US had stood firm.


 
Not really.

The USA had enough fissionable material for TWO bombs in 1945.

You're talking outcha ass, sport.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Mark LaRochelle said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again, you fail to see WHO did not want to police eastern Europe and fight the Russians.
> 
> That man was General Dwight D. Eisenhower.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By the time Ike was in a position to set policy, the Soviets already had the A-bomb, making their occupation of Eastern Europe a _fait accompli_. Truman had the opportunity to liberate millions of his fellow human beings. He chose not to.
Click to expand...


You mean go to war with the Soviets while we were still engaged with Japan, did not know if our atomic bombs were going to work, with no training divisions left back in the states, with Germany and France and eastern Europe ravaged by war.  Your opinion does not reflect the reality of the time.

Truman and Eisenhower and Marshall decided otherwise.  Your comment is nothing more, Mark, than a jumped-up internet opinion.  We are all entitled to them, but they mean nothing in and of themselves.  Your evidence is not compelling.  Don't ask us to build your case.  You have to do it, then we get to critique it.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

JakeStarkey said:


> Mark LaRochelle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again, you fail to see WHO did not want to police eastern Europe and fight the Russians.
> 
> That man was General Dwight D. Eisenhower.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By the time Ike was in a position to set policy, the Soviets already had the A-bomb, making their occupation of Eastern Europe a _fait accompli_. Truman had the opportunity to liberate millions of his fellow human beings. He chose not to.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You mean go to war with the Soviets while we were still engaged with Japan, did not know if our atomic bombs were going to work, with no training divisions left back in the states, with Germany and France and eastern Europe ravaged by war.  Your opinion does not reflect the reality of the time.
> 
> Truman and Eisenhower and Marshall decided otherwise.  Your comment is nothing more, Mark, than a jumped-up internet opinion.  We are all entitled to them, but they mean nothing in and of themselves.  Your evidence is not compelling.  Don't ask us to build your case.  You have to do it, then we get to critique it.
Click to expand...


As we discussed in the "Patton" thread, the reason the General felt WWII was a strategic failure for the US was because he believed all that was accomplished for civilization east of Berlin was to exchange one sociopathic mass murderer for another. History bears him out.

We now learn that FDR let "Uncle Joe" keep all the real estate because he was advised to do so by genuine Communist spies.

That's the point, Jake. You're absurd notion that Third Shock Army would have been dancing in Paris 10 weeks after start of hostilities with the USA lies in a smoldering wreck like a JS-III without air cover.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Gadawg73 said:


> Mark LaRochelle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> "Questionable loyalty" What bull shit!
> Accusations were made up. This entire BS was made up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you alleging that Col. Allen and his fellow SCIA officers made false charges, or that Capt. Sheehan and his G-2 team falsified their report on Fort Monmouth? These are serious charges. What is your evidence?
> 
> 
> 
> Well, it's hard to pick just one, but let's take Aaron Coleman. He had been a City College of New York classmate of Julius Rosenberg, Morton Sobell, etc. Ex-Communist CCNY alum Nathan Sussman testified that Coleman had been a fellow member there of the Young Communist League, along with Rosenberg et al. Rosenberg testified that he had been in contact with Coleman at Fort Monmouth. In 1946, security agents searched his rooms, finding more than 40 official papers, some highly confidential. Coleman's roommate at the time, Jack Okun, would be suspended from Fort Monmouth on security grounds in 1949. Any one of these associations should have rendered Coleman ineligible for employment at a Signals Corps base under the Truman loyalty order of 1947. Yet he was still working at Fort Monmouth when the McCarthy inquiry began in 1953.
> 
> 
> 
> If you mean that security there was dangerously lax, you are correct.
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did McCarthy believe there were communists in the Army or did he not believe it? If he didn't then why all the allegations that you cut and pasted?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> McCarthy heard serious allegations from Allen of SCIA, Sheehan of G-2, Lawton, base commander at Fort Monmouth, and Andrew Reid, chief of security there. He was in the process of investigating those allegations (seeking subpoenas of the security review board members) when the Army accused him of cooking up the whole Fort Monmouth inquiry as a way of pressuring it to grant favored treatment to Schine -- thus pre-empting the Fort Monmouth investigation with the Army-McCarthy hearings, investigating McCarthy himself.
> 
> I notice that you did not post when and where Cohn stated "I will wreck the Army," nor when and where McCarthy asserted the presence of Communists in the Army; nor did you post your sources. Are you retracting these charges?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> McCarthy told his shrink, hairdresser and bartender on December 19, 1953.
> 
> Under your thesis McCarthy had "serious allegations" yet never "asserted the presence of Communists in the Army"?
> They must not have been very serious or outright bogus, which you know they were, if McCarthy never "asserted the presence of Communists in the Army.
> 
> The shrink was killed by a mysterious drive by shooting. The FBI is investigating the killings of Tupac Shakur and The Notorious B. I. G. as possibly being the same shooter.
> The hairdresser was the grand neice of Mati Hari. After her tips were not up to par she turned to communism because beards and haircuts were the Bloshevik style thus increasing her business 33% off the bat.
> The bartender was shot on sight in Moscow in a Stolichnaya smuggling deal gone bad.
Click to expand...


Several months and hundreds of posts ago, I recommended that you actually crack open the book "Blacklisted" and learn something, instead you choose to spew charges that get exponentially more absurd with each telling.


----------



## Gadawg73

CrusaderFrank said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mark LaRochelle said:
> 
> 
> 
> By the time Ike was in a position to set policy, the Soviets already had the A-bomb, making their occupation of Eastern Europe a _fait accompli_. Truman had the opportunity to liberate millions of his fellow human beings. He chose not to.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You mean go to war with the Soviets while we were still engaged with Japan, did not know if our atomic bombs were going to work, with no training divisions left back in the states, with Germany and France and eastern Europe ravaged by war.  Your opinion does not reflect the reality of the time.
> 
> Truman and Eisenhower and Marshall decided otherwise.  Your comment is nothing more, Mark, than a jumped-up internet opinion.  We are all entitled to them, but they mean nothing in and of themselves.  Your evidence is not compelling.  Don't ask us to build your case.  You have to do it, then we get to critique it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As we discussed in the "Patton" thread, the reason the General felt WWII was a strategic failure for the US was because he believed all that was accomplished for civilization east of Berlin was to exchange one sociopathic mass murderer for another. History bears him out.
> 
> We now learn that FDR let "Uncle Joe" keep all the real estate because he was advised to do so by genuine Communist spies.
> 
> That's the point, Jake. You're absurd notion that Third Shock Army would have been dancing in Paris 10 weeks after start of hostilities with the USA lies in a smoldering wreck like a JS-III without air cover.
Click to expand...


We had a term other than "Monday morning QB" in my day. 
When did Stalin ever occupy Great Britain, West Berlin, France, Albania, Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Greece, Italy, Monaco, Netherlands, Norway, Libya, Algeria or Tunisia Frank?
Frank would have us believe that FDR was never advised by anyone in the military on foreign affairs and that Patton was right and all of the other military leaders were socialists supporting Uncle Joe. 
But I love fiction as it is always more interesting than FACT.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Gadawg73 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> You mean go to war with the Soviets while we were still engaged with Japan, did not know if our atomic bombs were going to work, with no training divisions left back in the states, with Germany and France and eastern Europe ravaged by war.  Your opinion does not reflect the reality of the time.
> 
> Truman and Eisenhower and Marshall decided otherwise.  Your comment is nothing more, Mark, than a jumped-up internet opinion.  We are all entitled to them, but they mean nothing in and of themselves.  Your evidence is not compelling.  Don't ask us to build your case.  You have to do it, then we get to critique it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As we discussed in the "Patton" thread, the reason the General felt WWII was a strategic failure for the US was because he believed all that was accomplished for civilization east of Berlin was to exchange one sociopathic mass murderer for another. History bears him out.
> 
> We now learn that FDR let "Uncle Joe" keep all the real estate because he was advised to do so by genuine Communist spies.
> 
> That's the point, Jake. You're absurd notion that Third Shock Army would have been dancing in Paris 10 weeks after start of hostilities with the USA lies in a smoldering wreck like a JS-III without air cover.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We had a term other than "Monday morning QB" in my day.
> When did Stalin ever occupy Great Britain, West Berlin, France, Albania, Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Greece, Italy, Monaco, Netherlands, Norway, Libya, Algeria or Tunisia Frank?
> Frank would have us believe that FDR was never advised by anyone in the military on foreign affairs and that Patton was right and all of the other military leaders were socialists supporting Uncle Joe.
> But I love fiction as it is always more interesting than FACT.
Click to expand...


Give me your address and I'll Amazon ship one to you


----------



## JakeStarkey

Gadawg73 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> You mean go to war with the Soviets while we were still engaged with Japan, did not know if our atomic bombs were going to work, with no training divisions left back in the states, with Germany and France and eastern Europe ravaged by war.  Your opinion does not reflect the reality of the time.
> 
> Truman and Eisenhower and Marshall decided otherwise.  Your comment is nothing more, Mark, than a jumped-up internet opinion.  We are all entitled to them, but they mean nothing in and of themselves.  Your evidence is not compelling.  Don't ask us to build your case.  You have to do it, then we get to critique it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As we discussed in the "Patton" thread, the reason the General felt WWII was a strategic failure for the US was because he believed all that was accomplished for civilization east of Berlin was to exchange one sociopathic mass murderer for another. History bears him out.
> 
> We now learn that FDR let "Uncle Joe" keep all the real estate because he was advised to do so by genuine Communist spies.
> 
> That's the point, Jake. You're absurd notion that Third Shock Army would have been dancing in Paris 10 weeks after start of hostilities with the USA lies in a smoldering wreck like a JS-III without air cover.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We had a term other than "Monday morning QB" in my day.
> When did Stalin ever occupy Great Britain, West Berlin, France, Albania, Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Greece, Italy, Monaco, Netherlands, Norway, Libya, Algeria or Tunisia Frank?
> Frank would have us believe that FDR was never advised by anyone in the military on foreign affairs and that Patton was right and all of the other military leaders were socialists supporting Uncle Joe.
> But I love fiction as it is always more interesting than FACT.
Click to expand...


Yes.  CrusaderFrank = fiction.  Frank should go talk to Tom Clancy.

The far wackright will not stay in reality.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

JakeStarkey said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> As we discussed in the "Patton" thread, the reason the General felt WWII was a strategic failure for the US was because he believed all that was accomplished for civilization east of Berlin was to exchange one sociopathic mass murderer for another. History bears him out.
> 
> We now learn that FDR let "Uncle Joe" keep all the real estate because he was advised to do so by genuine Communist spies.
> 
> That's the point, Jake. You're absurd notion that Third Shock Army would have been dancing in Paris 10 weeks after start of hostilities with the USA lies in a smoldering wreck like a JS-III without air cover.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We had a term other than "Monday morning QB" in my day.
> When did Stalin ever occupy Great Britain, West Berlin, France, Albania, Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Greece, Italy, Monaco, Netherlands, Norway, Libya, Algeria or Tunisia Frank?
> Frank would have us believe that FDR was never advised by anyone in the military on foreign affairs and that Patton was right and all of the other military leaders were socialists supporting Uncle Joe.
> But I love fiction as it is always more interesting than FACT.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes.  CrusaderFrank = fiction.  Frank should go talk to Tom Clancy.
> 
> The far wackright will not stay in reality.
Click to expand...


History has shown your Uncle Joe to be one of civilizations worse mass murderers, right up there with the other Progressive Hero Chairman Mao


----------



## Mark LaRochelle

Gadawg73 said:


> Under your thesis McCarthy had "serious allegations" yet never "asserted the presence of Communists in the Army"?



Well, among the multitude of allegations presented to McCarthy were the following:


there was pro-Communist infiltration of and disappearance of classified material from the Signal Corps
among the personnel at the Signal Corps base at Fort Monmouth, NJ, were 34 subversives
people who were &#8220;very dangerous to the security of this country&#8221; were kept on at Fort Monmouth even after having been identified
suspensions of security suspects at Fort Monmouth were stalled for 21 months, only to be granted within two weeks once McCarthy brought attention to the matter
certain Fort Monmouth personnel &#8220;indiscriminately reproduced&#8221; &#8220;highly classified documents&#8221; and were &#8220;taking them home,&#8221; including one Fort Monmouth employee who had signed out for more than 2,700 documents, two-thirds of which disappeared
secret materials found their way from Fort Monmouth into Soviet hands

These allegations were made by, respectively:


Col. Jim Allen and nine other officers at the Signal Corps Intelligence Agency
a secret FBI report mandated by the Truman loyalty order of 1947 (Executive Order 9835, Part VI.1.a.)
Andrew Reid, chief of security at Fort Monmouth
Gen. Kirke Lawton, post commander of Fort Monmouth
Capt. Benjamin Sheehan and his G-2 counterintelligence squad
defector Harald Buettner

I don't think of it as my thesis, but I admit that I do regard these allegations as serious. If you don't, you are of course entitled to your opinion; we'll just have to agree to disagree.



Gadawg73 said:


> They must not have been very serious or outright bogus, which you know they were, if McCarthy never "asserted the presence of Communists in the Army.



Actually I don't know that (as I mentioned above, I do indeed consider these allegations serious), but I would like to see your evidence. Are you alleging that Reid, Buettner, Capt. Sheehan, Col. Allen, Gen. Lawton and the FBI all falsified investigative reports or committed perjury? These are serious charges. What is your evidence?

McCarthy's investigation into these allegations was interrupted and never concluded, so for him to have asserted the presence of Communists in the Army would have been a premature judgment. As Evans shows, McCarthy was certainly capable of such missteps, but did he make this one? It's not, as you put it, my thesis that McCarthy never asserted the presence of Communists in the Army. I apologize if I led you to believe that. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but if I recall correctly, what I actually posted was



Mark LaRochelle said:


> Did McCarthy state that there were Communists in the Army? When and where did he say that? What is your source?



I asked those questions *not* because I was contending that McCarthy never said this, but because I didn't know whether he did, and I wanted to learn. I've gone over McCarthy's collected speeches and the subcommittee transcripts, but I can't find such a statement anywhere. So I still don't know, but I'm also still curious: Where did you get that information?

Your thesis that these charges were &#8220;bogus&#8221; pits you against the Army and the Eisenhower administration, which did, as Lawton testified, finally remove these suspects from Fort Monmouth once McCarthy focused public attention on the situation. In addition, after McCarthy had departed the scene, new evidence would emerge that would challenge your thesis. For example, Buettner's allegation that secret material from Fort Monmouth found its way into Soviet hands would eventually be corroborated by another defector, a Russian scientist identified in the public record only under the cover name &#8220;Andrivye,&#8221; who would testify to the Senate Internal Security subcommittee that in the Soviet Union he had seen &#8220;thousands&#8221; of secret US documents identified as having come from Fort Monmouth.


----------



## Mark LaRochelle

editec said:


> The USA had enough fissionable material for TWO bombs in 1945.



That's true, but the window of opportunity for action didn't close in 1945, but extended through 1949, when the Soviets finally broke the US nuclear monopoly. During this period, the U.S. constructed many A-bombs; the Soviets had none.

I notice that you didn't post when and where McCarthy "accused IKE of being a Commie symnpathizer," [sic] nor did you post your source. Are you retracting that charge?


----------



## Mark LaRochelle

JakeStarkey said:


> You mean go to war with the Soviets while we were still engaged with Japan, did not know if our atomic bombs were going to work, with no training divisions left back in the states, with Germany and France and eastern Europe ravaged by war.



No, I don't mean that. I mean after the demonstrations at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the Soviets became aware of what the A-bomb could do. The U.S. could have told the Soviets to honor their agreement regarding the independence of Eastern Europe, or face the Enola Gay over Moscow.



JakeStarkey said:


> Your opinion does not reflect the reality of the time.
> 
> Truman and Eisenhower and Marshall decided otherwise.  Your comment is nothing more, Mark, than a jumped-up internet opinion.



I didn't intend to express an opinion. I apologize if my post came across that way. I don't mean to opine that Truman *should * have threatened to use his nuclear leverage to force Stalin back; I mean only that (in fact) it was an option he had that Ike did not, and that he chose not to use it.



JakeStarkey said:


> Your evidence is not compelling.



What evidence?



JakeStarkey said:


> Don't ask us to build your case.



What case?


----------



## CrusaderFrank

In March 1952, the State Department Gen Snow got his chance to expose McCarthy for the liar that the claimed McCarthy was. He was called to the Senate committee to look into the charges that State was beyond lax at weeding out Communist spies.

Senator McCarren challenged Gen Snow directly on point as follows, 

*"You made a blanket statement and say what Senator McCarthy says from beginning to end is false...you blanketed everything that he said as false. Now, you will prove to us that they are false."*

As you might expect, but didn't know until now, State Department's Gen Snow answered like Jake Starkey quoting contradictory footnotes in "Blacklisted"

If McCarthy was a liar, if he was making up stuff out of whole cloth about Communist Spies at State, Gen Snow could have destroyed McCarthy right then and there with facts.  But he didn't and couldn't.

Did you know that?


----------



## HUGGY

CrusaderFrank said:


> In March 1952, the State Department Gen Snow got his chance to expose McCarthy for the liar that the claimed McCarthy was. He was called to the Senate committee to look into the charges that State was beyond lax at weeding out Communist spies.
> 
> Senator McCarren challenged Gen Snow directly on point as follows,
> 
> *"You made a blanket statement and say what Senator McCarthy says from beginning to end is false...you blanketed everything that he said as false. Now, you will prove to us that they are false."*
> 
> As you might expect, but didn't know until now, State Department's Gen Snow answered like Jake Starkey quoting contradictory footnotes in "Blacklisted"
> 
> If McCarthy was a liar, if he was making up stuff out of whole cloth about Communist Spies at State, Gen Snow could have destroyed McCarthy right then and there with facts.  But he didn't and couldn't.
> 
> Did you know that?



What a stupid example Frankie.  It's like asking someone "When did you stop beating your wife and children?"

Of course *EVERYTHING* McCarthy said from beginning to end was not false.  How could anyone prove* EVERYTHING ANYONE* said is false from beginning to end.  So the only other possible conclusion is that *EVERYTHING* McCarthy said from beginning to end was *true*?

That is some pretty fucked up logic Frankie.


----------



## Gadawg73

CrusaderFrank said:


> In March 1952, the State Department Gen Snow got his chance to expose McCarthy for the liar that the claimed McCarthy was. He was called to the Senate committee to look into the charges that State was beyond lax at weeding out Communist spies.
> 
> Senator McCarren challenged Gen Snow directly on point as follows,
> 
> *"You made a blanket statement and say what Senator McCarthy says from beginning to end is false...you blanketed everything that he said as false. Now, you will prove to us that they are false."*
> 
> As you might expect, but didn't know until now, State Department's Gen Snow answered like Jake Starkey quoting contradictory footnotes in "Blacklisted"
> 
> If McCarthy was a liar, if he was making up stuff out of whole cloth about Communist Spies at State, Gen Snow could have destroyed McCarthy right then and there with facts.  But he didn't and couldn't.
> 
> Did you know that?




General Snow was Chairman of The Loyalty-Security Board from 1947-1952. Snow stated that the Security Division at State passed on information on security questions and the FBI passed on information on loyalty exclusively.
Snow gave a report to the Secretary Jan 8, 1953 about McCarthy's allegations giving a statistical breakdown of McCarthy's allegations. McCarthy NEVER came to Snow or the Loyalty-Security committee, NOT ONCE, to discuss ANY report or ANY information. 
In one case McCarthy made a public statement that a State Department employee was associating with a Communist, General Snow went immediately to McCarthy's office and inquired about the name of the Communist that employee was associating with. McCarthy told him he had that name on a piece of paper and that the paper had been lost. 
"We never received any assistance from McCarthy whatsoever, except the names of 61 alleged communists in the State Departmend, whose files were made available to a select committee chaired by Millard Tydings-Foreign Relations Committee. That Committee had an oppurtunity to read all 61 cases. The Committee gave the State Department a clean bill of health on allof the files"
Snow made 3 speeches in 1951 "I accused McCarthy of making false statements about matters he knew were false".
General Conrad E. Snow knew McCarthy was a liar and told him that to his face.
Richard D. McKinzie interview with General Snow July 2, 1973

You have been a slacker on your reading Frank.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Mark LaRochelle said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> You mean go to war with the Soviets while we were still engaged with Japan, did not know if our atomic bombs were going to work, with no training divisions left back in the states, with Germany and France and eastern Europe ravaged by war.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, I don't mean that. I mean after the demonstrations at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the Soviets became aware of what the A-bomb could do. The U.S. could have told the Soviets to honor their agreement regarding the independence of Eastern Europe, or face the Enola Gay over Moscow.
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your opinion does not reflect the reality of the time.
> 
> Truman and Eisenhower and Marshall decided otherwise.  Your comment is nothing more, Mark, than a jumped-up internet opinion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I didn't intend to express an opinion. I apologize if my post came across that way. I don't mean to opine that Truman *should * have threatened to use his nuclear leverage to force Stalin back; I mean only that (in fact) it was an option he had that Ike did not, and that he chose not to use it.
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your evidence is not compelling.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What evidence?
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't ask us to build your case.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What case?
Click to expand...


Exactly.  You have no case.

A comment about Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  One, they were our last atomic weapons until the next year in the arsenal.  Two, the civilized nations of the world, including our citizens, would never have countenanced a war on our ally then.  Several years later, maybe, but by then, any opportunity was gone, if there had ever been one in the first place.


----------



## mdn2000

CrusaderFrank said:


> In March 1952, the State Department Gen Snow got his chance to expose McCarthy for the liar that the claimed McCarthy was. He was called to the Senate committee to look into the charges that State was beyond lax at weeding out Communist spies.
> 
> Senator McCarren challenged Gen Snow directly on point as follows,
> 
> *"You made a blanket statement and say what Senator McCarthy says from beginning to end is false...you blanketed everything that he said as false. Now, you will prove to us that they are false."*
> 
> As you might expect, but didn't know until now, State Department's Gen Snow answered like Jake Starkey quoting contradictory footnotes in "Blacklisted"
> 
> If McCarthy was a liar, if he was making up stuff out of whole cloth about Communist Spies at State, Gen Snow could have destroyed McCarthy right then and there with facts.  But he didn't and couldn't.
> 
> Did you know that?



Good post, I think the reason the Liberal's are so angry and mean when it comes to McCarthy is the success of Ann Coulter's book "Treason: Liberal Treachery From the Cold War to the War on Terrorism,"

McCarthyism: The Rosetta Stone of Liberal Lies - HUMAN EVENTS



> When I wrote a ferocious defense of Sen. Joe McCarthy in Treason: Liberal Treachery From the Cold War to the War on Terrorism, liberals chose not to argue with me. Instead they posted a scrolling series of reasons not to read my book, such as that I wear short skirts, date boys, and that Treason was not a scholarly tome.
> 
> After printing rabidly venomous accounts of McCarthy for half a century based on zero research, liberals would only accept research presenting an alternative view of McCarthy that included, as the Los Angeles Times put it, at least the "pretense of scholarly throat-clearing and objectivity."
> 
> This week, they got it. The great M. Stanton Evans has finally released Blacklisted by History: The Untold Story of Senator Joe McCarthy and His Fight Against America's Enemies. Based on a lifetime's work, including nearly a decade of thoroughgoing research, stores of original research and never-before-seen government files, this 672-page book ends the argument on Joe McCarthy. Look for it hidden behind stacks of Bill Clinton's latest self-serving book at a bookstore near you.
> 
> 
> Evans' book is such a tour de force that liberals are already preparing a "yesterday's news" defense -- as if they had long ago admitted the truth about McCarthy. Yes, and they fought shoulder to shoulder with Ronald Reagan to bring down the Evil Empire. Thus, Publishers Weekly preposterously claims that "the history Evans relates is already largely known, if not fully accepted." Somebody better tell George Clooney.
> 
> The McCarthy period is the Rosetta stone of all liberal lies. It is the textbook on how they rewrite history -- the sound chamber of liberal denunciations, their phony victimhood as they demean and oppress their enemies, their false imputation of dishonesty to their opponents, their legalization of every policy dispute, their ability to engage in lock-step shouting campaigns, and the black motives concealed by their endless cacophony.
> 
> The true story of Joe McCarthy, told in meticulous, irrefutable detail in Blacklisted by History, is that from 1938 to 1946, the Democratic Party acquiesced in a monstrous conspiracy being run through the State Department, the military establishment, and even the White House to advance the Soviet cause within the U.S. government.
> 
> In the face of the Democrats' absolute refusal to admit to their fecklessness, fatuity and recklessness in allowing known Soviet spies to penetrate the deepest levels of government, McCarthy demanded an accounting.
> 
> Even if one concedes to on-the-one-hand-on-the-other-hand whiners like Ronald Radosh that Truman's Secretary of State Dean Acheson didn't like communism, his record is what it was. And that record was to treat Soviet spies like members of the Hasty Pudding Club.
> 
> Rather than own up to their moral blindness to Soviet espionage, Democrats fired up the liberal slander machine, which would be deployed again and again over the next half century to the present day. In hiding their own perfidy, liberals were guilty of every sin they lyingly imputed to McCarthy. There were no "McCarthyites" until liberals came along.
> 
> Blacklisted by History proves that every conventional belief about McCarthy is wrong, including:
> 
> -- That he lied about his war service: He was a tailgunner in World War II;
> 
> -- That he was a drunk: He would generally nurse a single drink all night;
> 
> -- That he made the whole thing up: He produced loads of Soviet spies in government jobs;
> 
> -- That he just did it for political gain: He understood perfectly the godless evil of communism.
> 
> Ironically, for all of their love of conspiracy theories -- the rigging of the 2000 election, vote suppression in Ohio in 2004, 9/11 being an inside job, oil companies covering up miracle technology that would allow cars to run on dirt, Britney Spears' career, etc., etc. -- when presented with an actual conspiracy of Soviet spies infiltrating the U.S. government, they laughed it off like world-weary skeptics and dedicated themselves to slandering Joe McCarthy.
> 
> Then as now, liberals protect themselves from detection with wild calumnies against anybody who opposes them. They have no interest in -- or aptitude for -- persuasion. Their goal is to anathematize their enemies. Blacklisted by History removes the curse from one of the greatest patriots in American history.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Crusader Frank Mark and Rochelle continue to act as if they are junior Joe McCarthys and are no more effective.


----------



## Mark LaRochelle

JakeStarkey said:


> You have no case.



I'm not arguing a case. I'm only here to learn. For example, when you wrote that McCarthy employed



JakeStarkey said:


> unAmerican behavior in his search for communists and whatnots



I asked:



Mark LaRochelle said:


> what behavior of McCarthy's are you referring to as "unAmerican"?



You never answered, but I'm still curious.



JakeStarkey said:


> A comment about Hiroshima and Nagasaki. One, they were our last atomic weapons until the next year in the arsenal.



You're absolutely right that after the detonation of Trinity, Fat Man and Little Boy, the U.S. didn't detonate another A-bomb until Operation Crossroads in July 1946.



JakeStarkey said:


> Two, the civilized nations of the world, including our citizens, would never have countenanced a war on our ally then.



You're also correct that Stalin had been "our ally": He had joined the European allies once the Nazi-Soviet pact collapsed, and had been "our ally" against Japan for nearly a week -- from the bombing of Nagasaki on August 9 to the surrender of Japan on August 15, 1945.

The U.S. had successfully detonated a total of eight A-bombs by the time Stalin blockaded East Berlin, on June 24, 1948. The next day, British Foreign Minister Ernest Bevin invited the U.S. to station B-29s (The Enola Gay was a B-29) in England to show Stalin "we mean business." Churchill proposed that the allies present Stalin with an ultimatum: Withdraw from East Germany, or face U.S. A-bombs dropped on Soviet cities. 

On September 16, the National Security Council decided in favor of the use of atomic bombs, reasoning that giving Stalin the "slightest reason" to doubt that the U.S. would use them could "provoke exactly that sort of Soviet aggression which it is fundamentally U.S. policy to avert."

For the next two months, Secretary of Defense James Forrestal systematically solicited opinions on the question in the U.S. and Europe. He found "unanimous consent" in favor of the use of nuclear weapons. Gen. Lucius Clay, Commander of U.S. forces in Germany, told Forrestal he "would not hesitate to use the atomic bomb and would hit Moscow and Leningrad first."

Counterfactuals are speculative, but you may be right that "the civilized nations of the world, including our citizens, would never have countenanced" such an ultimatum. However, given that the "civilized nations of the world" countenanced the depredations of Hitler and Stalin, I'm not so sure. Among those imprisoned behind the former Iron Curtain many have written that they not only would have "countenanced," but prayed fervently for such an ultimatum. Although Hitler and Stalin agreed with your assessment, I'm not certain that such people were less than "civilized;" the same goes for Churchill et al.

At any rate, such an ultimatum did exist, but it applied only to Western Europe, not Eastern Europe. It was the express meaning of the U.S. nuclear umbrella over Western Europe, and of the doctrine of nuclear deterrence. As Churchill put it in 1949, "It is certain that Europe would have been communized and London under bombardment some time ago but for the deterrent of the atomic bomb in the hands of the United States."

You're absolutely right that many people, including some of "our citizens," didn't countenance U.S. protection of Western Europe, and that such folks made no secret of the fact that they felt themselves to be more "civilized" than the rest of us. But you are arguing with yourself; as I said:



Mark LaRochelle said:


> I don't mean to opine that Truman *should * have threatened to use his nuclear leverage to force Stalin back; I mean only that (in fact) it was an option he had that Ike did not, and that he chose not to use it.


----------



## Mark LaRochelle

Gadawg73 said:


> General Snow was Chairman of The Loyalty-Security Board from 1947-1952. Snow stated that the Security Division at State passed on information on security questions and the FBI passed on information on loyalty exclusively.
> Snow gave a report to the Secretary Jan 8, 1953 about McCarthy's allegations giving a statistical breakdown of McCarthy's allegations. McCarthy NEVER came to Snow or the Loyalty-Security committee, NOT ONCE, to discuss ANY report or ANY information.
> In one case McCarthy made a public statement that a State Department employee was associating with a Communist, General Snow went immediately to McCarthy's office and inquired about the name of the Communist that employee was associating with. McCarthy told him he had that name on a piece of paper and that the paper had been lost.
> "We never received any assistance from McCarthy whatsoever, except the names of 61 alleged communists in the State Departmend, whose files were made available to a select committee chaired by Millard Tydings-Foreign Relations Committee. That Committee had an oppurtunity to read all 61 cases. The Committee gave the State Department a clean bill of health on allof the files"
> Snow made 3 speeches in 1951 "I accused McCarthy of making false statements about matters he knew were false".
> General Conrad E. Snow knew McCarthy was a liar and told him that to his face.
> Richard D. McKinzie interview with General Snow July 2, 1973
> 
> You have been a slacker on your reading Frank.



Excellent post. Where can the original source be found?


----------



## JakeStarkey

*You're also correct that Stalin had been "our ally": He had joined the European allies once the Nazi-Soviet pact collapsed, and had been "our ally" against Japan for nearly a week -- from the bombing of Nagasaki on August 9 to the surrender of Japan on August 15, 1945.*  That would have been news to Churchill, FDR, Marshall, Truman, etc., plus the American media blitz to paint "Uncle Joe" as our "friend."

*The U.S. had successfully detonated a total of eight A-bombs by the time Stalin blockaded East Berlin, on June 24, 1948.*  Thank you for substantiating my point about no new nukes were available after Aug 1945.  Three years later does not matter.  Your discussion after that date does not matter, is not germane to whether the USA should have gone to war in the summer or fall of 1945.

*Counterfactuals are speculative, but you may be right that "the civilized nations of the world, including our citizens, would never have countenanced" such an ultimatum.*  No other matters invalidate the speculation that the American people along with their French, German, and British counterparts would not have permitted such a war against the USSR.


----------



## Mark LaRochelle

Gadawg73 said:


> General Snow was Chairman of The Loyalty-Security Board from 1947-1952. Snow stated that the Security Division at State passed on information on security questions and the FBI passed on information on loyalty exclusively.
> Snow gave a report to the Secretary Jan 8, 1953 about McCarthy's allegations giving a statistical breakdown of McCarthy's allegations. McCarthy NEVER came to Snow or the Loyalty-Security committee, NOT ONCE, to discuss ANY report or ANY information.
> In one case McCarthy made a public statement that a State Department employee was associating with a Communist, General Snow went immediately to McCarthy's office and inquired about the name of the Communist that employee was associating with. McCarthy told him he had that name on a piece of paper and that the paper had been lost.
> "We never received any assistance from McCarthy whatsoever, except the names of 61 alleged communists in the State Departmend, whose files were made available to a select committee chaired by Millard Tydings-Foreign Relations Committee. That Committee had an oppurtunity to read all 61 cases. The Committee gave the State Department a clean bill of health on allof the files"
> Snow made 3 speeches in 1951 "I accused McCarthy of making false statements about matters he knew were false".
> General Conrad E. Snow knew McCarthy was a liar and told him that to his face.
> Richard D. McKinzie interview with General Snow July 2, 1973



If this is an accurate recounting of what Gen. Snow said, he erred when he said that McCarthy had submitted



Gadawg73 said:


> the names of 61 alleged communists in the State Departmend



Snow made two errors here: the number of suspects, and the allegations against them. While many of the 124 suspects whose cases McCarthy submitted to the Senate for investigation were at such agencies as Treasury, Commerce, the UN, etc., 67 were still in the State Department at the time (68 if you count Harlow Shapley, a non-compensated State Department adviser at the UN). Nor were these alleged Communists: what McCarthy actually said was that his suspects would appear to be either card carrying Communists or certainly loyal to the Communist Party.

Fellow-travelers who were not CP members but were loyal to the Communist Party were explicitly targeted by the Truman Loyalty Order (Membership in, affiliation with or *sympathetic association with* any foreign or domestic organization, association, movement, group or combination of persons, designated by the Attorney General as totalitarian, Fascist, *Communist*, or subversive, or as having adopted a policy of advocating or approving the commission of acts of force or violence to deny other persons their rights under the Constitution of the United States, or as seeking to alter the form of Government of the United States by unconstitutional means [Emphasis added]). However, Snow was absolutely right that



Gadawg73 said:


> The Committee gave the State Department a clean bill of health on allof the files



The Senate had charged the Tydings subcommittee with the task of conducting a full and complete study and investigation as to whether persons who are disloyal to the United States are, or have been, employed by the Department of State. Astonishingly, Tydings could not find a single instance, somehow missing  such blatant cases as Noel Field (who had defected to the East bloc in 1948) or Laurence Duggan, who committed suicide (or was liquidated by SMERSH) after being identified by the FBI as a Soviet agent.

Flabbergasted by Tyding's performance, Sen. Irving Ives (R-NY) suggested that a fraud and a hoax have been perpetrated on the Senate of the United States, and the American people by Tydings, adding that such perpetration is evident in the apparently deliberate action of the subcommittee in disregarding the will of the Senate.

How Tydings could have come to overlook such obvious cases may be surmised from his memorandum to President Truman:

I strongly recommend for *your own* welfare, for the welfare of the country and lastly for the welfare of *the Democratic party* that the present Communist inquiry not be allowed to worsen, but that you take bold, forthright and courageous action which I presume to say will do as much as anything I can think of to give *you and your administration and party* a tremendous advantage in the *coming election*. [Emphasis added]​
Despite Truman's best efforts, the voters reelected McCarthy, and dumped Tydings.


----------



## Mark LaRochelle

JakeStarkey said:


> That would have been news to Churchill, FDR, Marshall, Truman, etc.,



I'm not sure about that. Churchill seems to have had some glimmer that throughout the Battle of Britain and the London Blitz, Radio Moscow was beaming defeatist propaganda to the allies, that the Communists were urging British workers to strike to sabotage the war effort; that, asked what Britons should do if the Nazis crossed the channel, Stalin's British apologist George Bernard Shaw advised, "Welcome them as tourists."

Likewise the French seem to have noticed the joint Nazi-Soviet victory parades in Poland in 1939; and that French Communist Party leaders Maurice Thorez and Jacques Duclos exulted openly over the Nazi conquest of France, Thorez declaring that "the struggle of the French people has the same aim as the struggle of German Imperialism."

Roosevelt would seem to have been aware of the Communists picketing the White House, denouncing him as a "reactionary war monger" for extending Lend-Lease to the UK; it was he who created the Emergency Detention Program in 1939, which targeted not just Japanese, Nazis and Fascists, but Communists; it was he who signed the Smith Act into law, and his Justice Department that secured a four-year sentence for Communist Party boss Earl Browder in 1940.



JakeStarkey said:


> Thank you for substantiating my point



You're welcome. That's what I meant when I wrote



Mark LaRochelle said:


> You're absolutely right





JakeStarkey said:


> Your discussion after that date does not matter, is not germane to whether the USA should have gone to war in the summer or fall of 1945.



I thought I made it tolerably clear that I was not arguing that the U.S. should go to war at all. As I have written twice now:



Mark LaRochelle said:


> I don't mean to opine that Truman *should * have threatened to use his nuclear leverage to force Stalin back; I mean only that (in fact) it was an option he had that Ike did not, and that he chose not to use it.



I also thought I made it clear that I was not limiting my discussion to the summer and fall of 1945. As I wrote:



Mark LaRochelle said:


> the window of opportunity for action didn't close in 1945, but extended through 1949, when the Soviets finally broke the US nuclear monopoly. During this period, the U.S. constructed many A-bombs; the Soviets had none.


----------



## Gadawg73

Mark LaRochelle said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> General Snow was Chairman of The Loyalty-Security Board from 1947-1952. Snow stated that the Security Division at State passed on information on security questions and the FBI passed on information on loyalty exclusively.
> Snow gave a report to the Secretary Jan 8, 1953 about McCarthy's allegations giving a statistical breakdown of McCarthy's allegations. McCarthy NEVER came to Snow or the Loyalty-Security committee, NOT ONCE, to discuss ANY report or ANY information.
> In one case McCarthy made a public statement that a State Department employee was associating with a Communist, General Snow went immediately to McCarthy's office and inquired about the name of the Communist that employee was associating with. McCarthy told him he had that name on a piece of paper and that the paper had been lost.
> "We never received any assistance from McCarthy whatsoever, except the names of 61 alleged communists in the State Departmend, whose files were made available to a select committee chaired by Millard Tydings-Foreign Relations Committee. That Committee had an oppurtunity to read all 61 cases. The Committee gave the State Department a clean bill of health on allof the files"
> Snow made 3 speeches in 1951 "I accused McCarthy of making false statements about matters he knew were false".
> General Conrad E. Snow knew McCarthy was a liar and told him that to his face.
> Richard D. McKinzie interview with General Snow July 2, 1973
> 
> You have been a slacker on your reading Frank.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Excellent post. Where can the original source be found?
Click to expand...


Truman Library. Original transcripts from the interview. McKinzie also wrote a book on it.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Mark LaRochelle said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> That would have been news to Churchill, FDR, Marshall, Truman, etc.,
> 
> 
> 
> <snip>
Click to expand...

  We are not discussing whether Stalin and the USSR were allied to GB and the USA.  That remains a fact.



Mark LaRochelle said:


> . . .  I mean only that (in fact) it was an option he had that Ike did not, and that he chose not to use it.


  A wise decision by Truman.



Mark LaRochelle said:


> the window of opportunity for action didn't close in 1945, but extended through 1949, when the Soviets finally broke the US nuclear monopoly. During this period, the U.S. constructed many A-bombs; the Soviets had none.


  Still a wise decision by Truman.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Mark LaRochelle said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> General Snow was Chairman of The Loyalty-Security Board from 1947-1952. Snow stated that the Security Division at State passed on information on security questions and the FBI passed on information on loyalty exclusively.
> Snow gave a report to the Secretary Jan 8, 1953 about McCarthy's allegations giving a statistical breakdown of McCarthy's allegations. McCarthy NEVER came to Snow or the Loyalty-Security committee, NOT ONCE, to discuss ANY report or ANY information.
> In one case McCarthy made a public statement that a State Department employee was associating with a Communist, General Snow went immediately to McCarthy's office and inquired about the name of the Communist that employee was associating with. McCarthy told him he had that name on a piece of paper and that the paper had been lost.
> "We never received any assistance from McCarthy whatsoever, except the names of 61 alleged communists in the State Departmend, whose files were made available to a select committee chaired by Millard Tydings-Foreign Relations Committee. That Committee had an oppurtunity to read all 61 cases. The Committee gave the State Department a clean bill of health on allof the files"
> Snow made 3 speeches in 1951 "I accused McCarthy of making false statements about matters he knew were false".
> General Conrad E. Snow knew McCarthy was a liar and told him that to his face.
> Richard D. McKinzie interview with General Snow July 2, 1973
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If this is an accurate recounting of what Gen. Snow said, he erred when he said that McCarthy had submitted
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> the names of 61 alleged communists in the State Departmend
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Snow made two errors here: the number of suspects, and the allegations against them. While many of the 124 suspects whose cases McCarthy submitted to the Senate for investigation were at such agencies as Treasury, Commerce, the UN, etc., 67 were still in the State Department at the time (68 if you count Harlow Shapley, a non-compensated State Department adviser at the UN). Nor were these alleged Communists: what McCarthy actually said was that his suspects would appear to be either card carrying Communists or certainly loyal to the Communist Party.
> 
> Fellow-travelers who were not CP members but were loyal to the Communist Party were explicitly targeted by the Truman Loyalty Order (Membership in, affiliation with or *sympathetic association with* any foreign or domestic organization, association, movement, group or combination of persons, designated by the Attorney General as totalitarian, Fascist, *Communist*, or subversive, or as having adopted a policy of advocating or approving the commission of acts of force or violence to deny other persons their rights under the Constitution of the United States, or as seeking to alter the form of Government of the United States by unconstitutional means [Emphasis added]). However, Snow was absolutely right that
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Committee gave the State Department a clean bill of health on allof the files
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Senate had charged the Tydings subcommittee with the task of conducting a full and complete study and investigation as to whether persons who are disloyal to the United States are, or have been, employed by the Department of State. Astonishingly, Tydings could not find a single instance, somehow missing  such blatant cases as Noel Field (who had defected to the East bloc in 1948) or Laurence Duggan, who committed suicide (or was liquidated by SMERSH) after being identified by the FBI as a Soviet agent.
> 
> Flabbergasted by Tyding's performance, Sen. Irving Ives (R-NY) suggested that a fraud and a hoax have been perpetrated on the Senate of the United States, and the American people by Tydings, adding that such perpetration is evident in the apparently deliberate action of the subcommittee in disregarding the will of the Senate.
> 
> How Tydings could have come to overlook such obvious cases may be surmised from his memorandum to President Truman:
> 
> I strongly recommend for *your own* welfare, for the welfare of the country and lastly for the welfare of *the Democratic party* that the present Communist inquiry not be allowed to worsen, but that you take bold, forthright and courageous action which I presume to say will do as much as anything I can think of to give *you and your administration and party* a tremendous advantage in the *coming election*. [Emphasis added]​
> Despite Truman's best efforts, the voters reelected McCarthy, and dumped Tydings.
Click to expand...


My dear sir, Gadawg and HIS fellow travelers are unable to countenance the possibility that anything which supports their worldview could ever be anything but the bedrock, gospel truth.  Thus, as far as they are concerned, a Senate investigation absolving the State Department of infiltration MUST be accepted as the end of the story, rather than being considered as a possible pile of dishonest, reeking garbage.  It is the only possible explanation for him stubbornly telling us that there were no Communists at the State Department because Tydings said so, even though the record now shows that they were there, and Tydings was full of shit.


----------



## JakeStarkey

Believe McCarthy or believe Tydings?  You jest.


----------



## Gadawg73

Cecilie1200 said:


> Mark LaRochelle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> General Snow was Chairman of The Loyalty-Security Board from 1947-1952. Snow stated that the Security Division at State passed on information on security questions and the FBI passed on information on loyalty exclusively.
> Snow gave a report to the Secretary Jan 8, 1953 about McCarthy's allegations giving a statistical breakdown of McCarthy's allegations. McCarthy NEVER came to Snow or the Loyalty-Security committee, NOT ONCE, to discuss ANY report or ANY information.
> In one case McCarthy made a public statement that a State Department employee was associating with a Communist, General Snow went immediately to McCarthy's office and inquired about the name of the Communist that employee was associating with. McCarthy told him he had that name on a piece of paper and that the paper had been lost.
> "We never received any assistance from McCarthy whatsoever, except the names of 61 alleged communists in the State Departmend, whose files were made available to a select committee chaired by Millard Tydings-Foreign Relations Committee. That Committee had an oppurtunity to read all 61 cases. The Committee gave the State Department a clean bill of health on allof the files"
> Snow made 3 speeches in 1951 "I accused McCarthy of making false statements about matters he knew were false".
> General Conrad E. Snow knew McCarthy was a liar and told him that to his face.
> Richard D. McKinzie interview with General Snow July 2, 1973
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If this is an accurate recounting of what Gen. Snow said, he erred when he said that McCarthy had submitted
> 
> 
> 
> Snow made two errors here: the number of suspects, and the allegations against them. While many of the 124 suspects whose cases McCarthy submitted to the Senate for investigation were at such agencies as Treasury, Commerce, the UN, etc., 67 were still in the State Department at the time (68 if you count Harlow Shapley, a non-compensated State Department adviser at the UN). Nor were these alleged Communists: what McCarthy actually said was that his suspects would appear to be either card carrying Communists or certainly loyal to the Communist Party.
> 
> Fellow-travelers who were not CP members but were loyal to the Communist Party were explicitly targeted by the Truman Loyalty Order (Membership in, affiliation with or *sympathetic association with* any foreign or domestic organization, association, movement, group or combination of persons, designated by the Attorney General as totalitarian, Fascist, *Communist*, or subversive, or as having adopted a policy of advocating or approving the commission of acts of force or violence to deny other persons their rights under the Constitution of the United States, or as seeking to alter the form of Government of the United States by unconstitutional means [Emphasis added]). However, Snow was absolutely right that
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Committee gave the State Department a clean bill of health on allof the files
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The Senate had charged the Tydings subcommittee with the task of conducting a full and complete study and investigation as to whether persons who are disloyal to the United States are, or have been, employed by the Department of State. Astonishingly, Tydings could not find a single instance, somehow missing  such blatant cases as Noel Field (who had defected to the East bloc in 1948) or Laurence Duggan, who committed suicide (or was liquidated by SMERSH) after being identified by the FBI as a Soviet agent.
> 
> Flabbergasted by Tyding's performance, Sen. Irving Ives (R-NY) suggested that a fraud and a hoax have been perpetrated on the Senate of the United States, and the American people by Tydings, adding that such perpetration is evident in the apparently deliberate action of the subcommittee in disregarding the will of the Senate.
> 
> How Tydings could have come to overlook such obvious cases may be surmised from his memorandum to President Truman:
> 
> I strongly recommend for *your own* welfare, for the welfare of the country and lastly for the welfare of *the Democratic party* that the present Communist inquiry not be allowed to worsen, but that you take bold, forthright and courageous action which I presume to say will do as much as anything I can think of to give *you and your administration and party* a tremendous advantage in the *coming election*. [Emphasis added]​
> Despite Truman's best efforts, the voters reelected McCarthy, and dumped Tydings.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My dear sir, Gadawg and HIS fellow travelers are unable to countenance the possibility that anything which supports their worldview could ever be anything but the bedrock, gospel truth.  Thus, as far as they are concerned, a Senate investigation absolving the State Department of infiltration MUST be accepted as the end of the story, rather than being considered as a possible pile of dishonest, reeking garbage.  It is the only possible explanation for him stubbornly telling us that there were no Communists at the State Department because Tydings said so, even though the record now shows that they were there, and Tydings was full of shit.
Click to expand...


Sorry that the facts are a real bitch for ya.
You totally ignore General Snow's personal account.
He was a great American. McCarthy was a lying drunk.
Case closed
Choose your friends carefully girl.


----------



## Gadawg73

JakeStarkey said:


> Believe McCarthy or believe Tydings?  You jest.



Give them a break Jake.
Ideological books force them to believe ideology.


----------



## mdn2000

How about Oppenhiemer, another Communist, all kinds of problems with Oppenhiemer's security clearance to work on the Manhatten project. 

Today it seems there is a resurrgent Marxist movement, everything the Liberal or Democrat does to me seems to be moving Marxisism forward. Why is that, why the attack on McCarthy, there were Communists in our government. The only people who seem opposed to getting rid of Marxist seems like the Democrats. Is there a connection.

The Best Quotes From Ann Coulter's 'Treason' - Right Wing News (Conservative News and Views)



> "Whether they are defending the Soviet Union or bleating for Saddam Hussein, liberals are always against America. They are either traitors or idiots, and on the matter of America's self-preservation, the difference is irrelevant." -- Ann Coulter, P. 16





> "Among the most notorious Soviet spies in high-level positions in the Roosevelt and Truman administrations -- now proved absolutely, beyond question by the Soviet cables -- were Alger Hiss at the State Department; Harry Dexter White, assistant secretary of the Treasury Department, later appointed to the International Monetary Fund by President Truman; Lauchlin Currie, personal assistant to President Roosevelt and White House liaison to the State Department under both Roosevelt and Truman; Laurence Duggan, head of the Latin American Desk at the State Department; Frank Coe, US representative on the International Monetary Fund; Solomon Adler, senior Treasury Department official; Klaus Fuchs, top atomic scientist; and Duncan Lee, senior aide to the head of the OSS." -- Ann Coulter, P. 44


----------



## Gadawg73

mdn2000 said:


> How about Oppenhiemer, another Communist, all kinds of problems with Oppenhiemer's security clearance to work on the Manhatten project.
> 
> Today it seems there is a resurrgent Marxist movement, everything the Liberal or Democrat does to me seems to be moving Marxisism forward. Why is that, why the attack on McCarthy, there were Communists in our government. The only people who seem opposed to getting rid of Marxist seems like the Democrats. Is there a connection.
> 
> The Best Quotes From Ann Coulter's 'Treason' - Right Wing News (Conservative News and Views)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Whether they are defending the Soviet Union or bleating for Saddam Hussein, liberals are always against America. They are either traitors or idiots, and on the matter of America's self-preservation, the difference is irrelevant." -- Ann Coulter, P. 16
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Among the most notorious Soviet spies in high-level positions in the Roosevelt and Truman administrations -- now proved absolutely, beyond question by the Soviet cables -- were Alger Hiss at the State Department; Harry Dexter White, assistant secretary of the Treasury Department, later appointed to the International Monetary Fund by President Truman; Lauchlin Currie, personal assistant to President Roosevelt and White House liaison to the State Department under both Roosevelt and Truman; Laurence Duggan, head of the Latin American Desk at the State Department; Frank Coe, US representative on the International Monetary Fund; Solomon Adler, senior Treasury Department official; Klaus Fuchs, top atomic scientist; and Duncan Lee, senior aide to the head of the OSS." -- Ann Coulter, P. 44
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Big problem with your argument Moe.
I am a Republican and have voted Republican 95% of the time since 1972. 
I go by the live interviews of the people of the day that were in the military.
McCarthy was a liar and a drunk is what the military stated.
Case closed.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Maybe Tydings will finally play the original recording he claimed to have of McCarthy?

Jake? Gadawg? Care to chime in?


----------



## mdn2000

Gadawg73 said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> How about Oppenhiemer, another Communist, all kinds of problems with Oppenhiemer's security clearance to work on the Manhatten project.
> 
> Today it seems there is a resurrgent Marxist movement, everything the Liberal or Democrat does to me seems to be moving Marxisism forward. Why is that, why the attack on McCarthy, there were Communists in our government. The only people who seem opposed to getting rid of Marxist seems like the Democrats. Is there a connection.
> 
> The Best Quotes From Ann Coulter's 'Treason' - Right Wing News (Conservative News and Views)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Whether they are defending the Soviet Union or bleating for Saddam Hussein, liberals are always against America. They are either traitors or idiots, and on the matter of America's self-preservation, the difference is irrelevant." -- Ann Coulter, P. 16
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Among the most notorious Soviet spies in high-level positions in the Roosevelt and Truman administrations -- now proved absolutely, beyond question by the Soviet cables -- were Alger Hiss at the State Department; Harry Dexter White, assistant secretary of the Treasury Department, later appointed to the International Monetary Fund by President Truman; Lauchlin Currie, personal assistant to President Roosevelt and White House liaison to the State Department under both Roosevelt and Truman; Laurence Duggan, head of the Latin American Desk at the State Department; Frank Coe, US representative on the International Monetary Fund; Solomon Adler, senior Treasury Department official; Klaus Fuchs, top atomic scientist; and Duncan Lee, senior aide to the head of the OSS." -- Ann Coulter, P. 44
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Big problem with your argument Moe.
> I am a Republican and have voted Republican 95% of the time since 1972.
> I go by the live interviews of the people of the day that were in the military.
> McCarthy was a liar and a drunk is what the military stated.
> Case closed.
Click to expand...


First and foremost I think you are largely a troll or a petty man at best, that is my personal opinion of you based on how I have seen you take a post, cut what is important out, post a  tiny portion, and then deliberately label and insult the person who made the post. 

I am sure your response will be an astonished, "this guy is a nut" response to further sit in your authoritairian chair, for that is how I see your elitist attitude when you state unequivically that the case is closed simply because you say so and you have made the statement, "I am a Republican". 

Your qualification that all you state is true is alwasy preceded by, "I am a Republican therefore what I state is right".

I see you nothing more as someone who is a troll. Here, simply, to be a negative stereotype of who a Republican is.

Your problem with my arguement is an answer that has nothing to do with Oppenhiemer? 
Your problem with the facts I posted is your a Republican. 

So lets see why you are, "right". Which year are you speaking, the day of 1950, 1951, 1952, 1953, or 1954? Live interviews, broadcast on the radio, correct, and how many interviews did you listen to live in lets just say 1954? If I assume you began voting at the age of 21 in 1972 that makes you 4 when you heard these, "live", interviews. So who did you hear specifically. Further how are you right simply because McCarthy attacked a General and the General attacked back. If you actuallly explained what the facts are instead of characterizing all that Mccarthy did was due to drinking you might actually squeeze a fact or two out of the propaganda and lies.



> I go by the live interviews of the people of the day that were in the military.



If this is your case, and all else that you posted, seems like your missing about 99.9% of the history. 

Address Oppenhiemer to begin. Prove that Oppenhiemer was not knowingly associating with known Communists.


----------



## Gadawg73

CrusaderFrank said:


> Maybe Tydings will finally play the original recording he claimed to have of McCarthy?
> 
> Jake? Gadawg? Care to chime in?



Snow, not Tydings.


----------



## Gadawg73

mdn2000 said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> How about Oppenhiemer, another Communist, all kinds of problems with Oppenhiemer's security clearance to work on the Manhatten project.
> 
> Today it seems there is a resurrgent Marxist movement, everything the Liberal or Democrat does to me seems to be moving Marxisism forward. Why is that, why the attack on McCarthy, there were Communists in our government. The only people who seem opposed to getting rid of Marxist seems like the Democrats. Is there a connection.
> 
> The Best Quotes From Ann Coulter's 'Treason' - Right Wing News (Conservative News and Views)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Big problem with your argument Moe.
> I am a Republican and have voted Republican 95% of the time since 1972.
> I go by the live interviews of the people of the day that were in the military.
> McCarthy was a liar and a drunk is what the military stated.
> Case closed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> First and foremost I think you are largely a troll or a petty man at best, that is my personal opinion of you based on how I have seen you take a post, cut what is important out, post a  tiny portion, and then deliberately label and insult the person who made the post.
> 
> I am sure your response will be an astonished, "this guy is a nut" response to further sit in your authoritairian chair, for that is how I see your elitist attitude when you state unequivically that the case is closed simply because you say so and you have made the statement, "I am a Republican".
> 
> Your qualification that all you state is true is alwasy preceded by, "I am a Republican therefore what I state is right".
> 
> I see you nothing more as someone who is a troll. Here, simply, to be a negative stereotype of who a Republican is.
> 
> Your problem with my arguement is an answer that has nothing to do with Oppenhiemer?
> Your problem with the facts I posted is your a Republican.
> 
> So lets see why you are, "right". Which year are you speaking, the day of 1950, 1951, 1952, 1953, or 1954? Live interviews, broadcast on the radio, correct, and how many interviews did you listen to live in lets just say 1954? If I assume you began voting at the age of 21 in 1972 that makes you 4 when you heard these, "live", interviews. So who did you hear specifically. Further how are you right simply because McCarthy attacked a General and the General attacked back. If you actuallly explained what the facts are instead of characterizing all that Mccarthy did was due to drinking you might actually squeeze a fact or two out of the propaganda and lies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I go by the live interviews of the people of the day that were in the military.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If this is your case, and all else that you posted, seems like your missing about 99.9% of the history.
> 
> Address Oppenhiemer to begin. Prove that Oppenhiemer was not knowingly associating with known Communists.
Click to expand...


You call me petty?
You are the child that sends me messages calling me an asshole and labeled me every deragotory name in the book in other posts. Why?
Because you are undisciplined and your milk is weak.
I have been beat up, shot at and left for dead. Played 4 quarters many an afternoon against 6'4", 290 lb. lineman. 
I forgot more history than you will ever know and was toting a weapon before you were sucking your mama's tit. 
Man up, get your own life together. 
Govern yourself accordingly. Get back to us when you grow up.


----------



## Wry Catcher

The Jury is IN, the verdict has withstood appeal.  Sen. McCarthy was a drunk and bore false witness against Americans.
At this moment he is (most likely) in Hell and deserves to be.
CrusaderFrank will suffer the same fate.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Wry Catcher said:


> The Jury is IN, the verdict has withstood appeal.  Sen. McCarthy was a drunk and bore false witness against Americans.
> At this moment he is (most likely) in Hell and deserves to be.
> CrusaderFrank will suffer the same fate.



You're parroting crap from a 60 year old playbook that has been completely discredited, even your Soviet friends admit they had a robust spy program at US State and that Alder, Currie, Service and many others were genuine Communist spies.

Stay ignorant, on you it looks good


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Gadawg73 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe Tydings will finally play the original recording he claimed to have of McCarthy?
> 
> Jake? Gadawg? Care to chime in?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Snow, not Tydings.
Click to expand...


Snow had his change to show evidence that McCarthy was a liar and instead he looked like Jake Starkey yet to show his "contradictory footnotes"


----------



## JakeStarkey

Nope, CF, the OP was exploded as a false claim many, many pages ago.


----------



## Gadawg73

CrusaderFrank said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe Tydings will finally play the original recording he claimed to have of McCarthy?
> 
> Jake? Gadawg? Care to chime in?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Snow, not Tydings.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Snow had his change to show evidence that McCarthy was a liar and instead he looked like Jake Starkey yet to show his "contradictory footnotes"
Click to expand...


You are clueless Frank.
You lose. Come to the 50 yard line and shake our hands and say "Good game".
Or be a bad sport. 
Your call.


----------



## JakeStarkey

CF, PC, and MR carried no points, none.


----------



## Wry Catcher

CrusaderFrank said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Jury is IN, the verdict has withstood appeal.  Sen. McCarthy was a drunk and bore false witness against Americans.
> At this moment he is (most likely) in Hell and deserves to be.
> CrusaderFrank will suffer the same fate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're parroting crap from a 60 year old playbook that has been completely discredited, even your Soviet friends admit they had a robust spy program at US State and that Alder, Currie, Service and many others were genuine Communist spies.
> 
> Stay ignorant, on you it looks good
Click to expand...


You know I consider you an idiot.  I suspect many vistors to this MB agree with me.  Simply because others  patronize you, doesn't make anything you post sensible.  
McCarthy was a liar, a drunk and totally discredited by his contemporaries.
I am an agnostic, but I still have hope that there is a heaven and hell (it sucks being raised catholic and having a brain) and both you and McCarthy enjoy eternity in hell.


----------



## JakeStarkey

CF and his cronies have always ignored that it was Joe's own party moralists that pulled him down and had him censored.  The character of the man was awful to boot.  The fact is this: you don't let such a person sit at the political dinner table with you.


----------



## mdn2000

Wry Catcher said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Jury is IN, the verdict has withstood appeal.  Sen. McCarthy was a drunk and bore false witness against Americans.
> At this moment he is (most likely) in Hell and deserves to be.
> CrusaderFrank will suffer the same fate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're parroting crap from a 60 year old playbook that has been completely discredited, even your Soviet friends admit they had a robust spy program at US State and that Alder, Currie, Service and many others were genuine Communist spies.
> 
> Stay ignorant, on you it looks good
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You know I consider you an idiot.  I suspect many vistors to this MB agree with me.  Simply because others  patronize you, doesn't make anything you post sensible.
> McCarthy was a liar, a drunk and totally discredited by his contemporaries.
> I am an agnostic, but I still have hope that there is a heaven and hell (it sucks being raised catholic and having a brain) and both you and McCarthy enjoy eternity in hell.
Click to expand...


How much of a drunk, was he drunk all the time, falling down, slobbering drunk, or was it an occasional drink, I know what Goldwater wrote about McCarthy's drinking, sounds to me that its a bit exagerrated simply to state McCarthy was a drunk. 

Fact of the matter is there is no way a drunk can get elected, of course I have asked to define being a drunk, because that matters. 

Communist were active in our government, to state otherwise is wrong. Could anyone of addressed the issue in a calm and civil manner, during the times of racism and the civil rights movement, is there any other way to address the issue of Communism without be loud and forceful and pissing off a lot of people. 

Anyhow, history shows the Communist penetration was deep. 

Oppenhiemer is a great example of what Mccarthy was fighting.


----------



## Wry Catcher

mdn2000 said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> You're parroting crap from a 60 year old playbook that has been completely discredited, even your Soviet friends admit they had a robust spy program at US State and that Alder, Currie, Service and many others were genuine Communist spies.
> 
> Stay ignorant, on you it looks good
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You know I consider you an idiot.  I suspect many vistors to this MB agree with me.  Simply because others  patronize you, doesn't make anything you post sensible.
> McCarthy was a liar, a drunk and totally discredited by his contemporaries.
> I am an agnostic, but I still have hope that there is a heaven and hell (it sucks being raised catholic and having a brain) and both you and McCarthy enjoy eternity in hell.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How much of a drunk, was he drunk all the time, falling down, slobbering drunk, or was it an occasional drink, I know what Goldwater wrote about McCarthy's drinking, sounds to me that its a bit exagerrated simply to state McCarthy was a drunk.
> 
> Fact of the matter is there is no way a drunk can get elected, of course I have asked to define being a drunk, because that matters.
> 
> Communist were active in our government, to state otherwise is wrong. Could anyone of addressed the issue in a calm and civil manner, during the times of racism and the civil rights movement, is there any other way to address the issue of Communism without be loud and forceful and pissing off a lot of people.
> 
> Anyhow, history shows the Communist penetration was deep.
> 
> Oppenhiemer is a great example of what Mccarthy was fighting.
Click to expand...


It amazes me how ignorant the RW hoi polloi are.


----------



## mdn2000

Wry Catcher said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> You know I consider you an idiot.  I suspect many vistors to this MB agree with me.  Simply because others  patronize you, doesn't make anything you post sensible.
> McCarthy was a liar, a drunk and totally discredited by his contemporaries.
> I am an agnostic, but I still have hope that there is a heaven and hell (it sucks being raised catholic and having a brain) and both you and McCarthy enjoy eternity in hell.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How much of a drunk, was he drunk all the time, falling down, slobbering drunk, or was it an occasional drink, I know what Goldwater wrote about McCarthy's drinking, sounds to me that its a bit exagerrated simply to state McCarthy was a drunk.
> 
> Fact of the matter is there is no way a drunk can get elected, of course I have asked to define being a drunk, because that matters.
> 
> Communist were active in our government, to state otherwise is wrong. Could anyone of addressed the issue in a calm and civil manner, during the times of racism and the civil rights movement, is there any other way to address the issue of Communism without be loud and forceful and pissing off a lot of people.
> 
> Anyhow, history shows the Communist penetration was deep.
> 
> Oppenhiemer is a great example of what Mccarthy was fighting.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It amazes me how ignorant the RW hoi polloi are.
Click to expand...


Are you unaware of Oppenhiemer, Mccarthy was aware of Oppenhiemer, lots of high level people were aware of Oppenhiemer, of course Oppenhiemer was not part of the Mccarthy story but it is part of the times that Mccarthy was a politician thus like all the politicians of the time they knew about Oppenhiemer, I forget the year of Oppenhiemer's trial, I think three years before Mccarthy began his work. 

So are you aware of Oppenhiemer's known associations with Communists. As much as Oppenhiemer associated with Communists I cannot see how Oppehiemer was allowed on the Manhatten project. 

So how can we associate all the Mccarthy did with being drunk and ignore Oppenhiemer, Oppenhiemer came before Mccarthy, the prosecution of Oppenhiemer did not involve anything Mccarthy did, an impossibility as Oppenhiemer is one example of Communism long before Mccarthy came along.

So are you ignorant of Oppenhiemer thus your only option is to call me ignorant.

The case is now shut and closed, Oppenhiemer vindicates Mccarthy. Oppenhiemer willingly associated with real life card carrying members of the Communist party. 

Not one person is willing or able to address Oppenhiemer, everyone has either ignored this fact of history or your simply ignorant of history. 

Case closed, Oppenhiemer, some people always wondered why Stalin seemed to know about the Atomic bomb at Potsdam, Oppenhiemer was privy to the secrets and had daily, extended contacts with card carrying members of the Communist party. 

Communism was alive and well, working to be a part of the government, its simple fact, easily proven, over and over, from KGB files to public records. The proof is everywhere.


----------



## Wry Catcher

mdn2000 said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> How much of a drunk, was he drunk all the time, falling down, slobbering drunk, or was it an occasional drink, I know what Goldwater wrote about McCarthy's drinking, sounds to me that its a bit exagerrated simply to state McCarthy was a drunk.
> 
> Fact of the matter is there is no way a drunk can get elected, of course I have asked to define being a drunk, because that matters.
> 
> Communist were active in our government, to state otherwise is wrong. Could anyone of addressed the issue in a calm and civil manner, during the times of racism and the civil rights movement, is there any other way to address the issue of Communism without be loud and forceful and pissing off a lot of people.
> 
> Anyhow, history shows the Communist penetration was deep.
> 
> Oppenhiemer is a great example of what Mccarthy was fighting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It amazes me how ignorant the RW hoi polloi are.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Are you unaware of Oppenhiemer, Mccarthy was aware of Oppenhiemer, lots of high level people were aware of Oppenhiemer, of course Oppenhiemer was not part of the Mccarthy story but it is part of the times that Mccarthy was a politician thus like all the politicians of the time they knew about Oppenhiemer, I forget the year of Oppenhiemer's trial, I think three years before Mccarthy began his work.
> 
> So are you aware of Oppenhiemer's known associations with Communists. As much as Oppenhiemer associated with Communists I cannot see how Oppehiemer was allowed on the Manhatten project.
> 
> So how can we associate all the Mccarthy did with being drunk and ignore Oppenhiemer, Oppenhiemer came before Mccarthy, the prosecution of Oppenhiemer did not involve anything Mccarthy did, an impossibility as Oppenhiemer is one example of Communism long before Mccarthy came along.
> 
> So are you ignorant of Oppenhiemer thus your only option is to call me ignorant.
> 
> The case is now shut and closed, Oppenhiemer vindicates Mccarthy. Oppenhiemer willingly associated with real life card carrying members of the Communist party.
> 
> Not one person is willing or able to address Oppenhiemer, everyone has either ignored this fact of history or your simply ignorant of history.
> 
> Case closed, Oppenhiemer, some people always wondered why Stalin seemed to know about the Atomic bomb at Potsdam, Oppenhiemer was privy to the secrets and had daily, extended contacts with card carrying members of the Communist party.
> 
> Communism was alive and well, working to be a part of the government, its simple fact, easily proven, over and over, from KGB files to public records. The proof is everywhere.
Click to expand...


Read slowly moron, maybe you'll get it.  The end doesn't justify the means (notwithstanding your paranoid delusions)


----------



## JakeStarkey

Not one of JM's apologists here will touch that it was his own party that pulled him down and had him censured.


----------



## mdn2000

Wry Catcher said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> It amazes me how ignorant the RW hoi polloi are.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you unaware of Oppenhiemer, Mccarthy was aware of Oppenhiemer, lots of high level people were aware of Oppenhiemer, of course Oppenhiemer was not part of the Mccarthy story but it is part of the times that Mccarthy was a politician thus like all the politicians of the time they knew about Oppenhiemer, I forget the year of Oppenhiemer's trial, I think three years before Mccarthy began his work.
> 
> So are you aware of Oppenhiemer's known associations with Communists. As much as Oppenhiemer associated with Communists I cannot see how Oppehiemer was allowed on the Manhatten project.
> 
> So how can we associate all the Mccarthy did with being drunk and ignore Oppenhiemer, Oppenhiemer came before Mccarthy, the prosecution of Oppenhiemer did not involve anything Mccarthy did, an impossibility as Oppenhiemer is one example of Communism long before Mccarthy came along.
> 
> So are you ignorant of Oppenhiemer thus your only option is to call me ignorant.
> 
> The case is now shut and closed, Oppenhiemer vindicates Mccarthy. Oppenhiemer willingly associated with real life card carrying members of the Communist party.
> 
> Not one person is willing or able to address Oppenhiemer, everyone has either ignored this fact of history or your simply ignorant of history.
> 
> Case closed, Oppenhiemer, some people always wondered why Stalin seemed to know about the Atomic bomb at Potsdam, Oppenhiemer was privy to the secrets and had daily, extended contacts with card carrying members of the Communist party.
> 
> Communism was alive and well, working to be a part of the government, its simple fact, easily proven, over and over, from KGB files to public records. The proof is everywhere.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Read slowly moron, maybe you'll get it.  The end doesn't justify the means (notwithstanding your paranoid delusions)
Click to expand...


Me being a moron has nothing to do with points being made. The end does not justify the means, depends on what you speak of. Are you now stating that McCarthy was right and it was the way he handled it that was wrong or is this just your attempt to deflect from a fact I posted that vindicates Mccarthy.

It appears your the one who is ignornant, I presented a fact that is irrefutable, one of hundreds of facts concerning Communist activity in foreign countries. 

Sorry if you have based your information on the writings of Zinn and Chomsky, Zinn and Chomsky did not do thier homework.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Jake and Gadawg are funny because they think that they are both debater and referee.  We post and link to sources while they go, "Yeah? Nyah nyah nyah!" and then declare themselves the winner.

They bring up Gen Snow, when Snow was clearly the Jake Starkey of his time. 

Gen Snow would say, "McCarthy is a liar!  State Dept is free of Communist influence!" Then when asked to show proof, Gen Snow, like Jake threatening to quote footnotes to a book he still did not read, made a total fool of himself before Congress.

Blacklisted by history: the untold ... - Google Books

Pages 294-295


----------



## mdn2000

CrusaderFrank said:


> Jake and Gadawg are funny because they think that they are both debater and referee.  We post and link to sources while they go, "Yeah? Nyah nyah nyah!" and then declare themselves the winner.
> 
> They bring up Gen Snow, when Snow was clearly the Jake Starkey of his time.
> 
> Gen Snow would say, "McCarthy is a liar!  State Dept is free of Communist influence!" Then when asked to show proof, Gen Snow, like Jake threatening to quote footnotes to a book he still did not read, made a total fool of himself before Congress.
> 
> Blacklisted by history: the untold ... - Google Books
> 
> Pages 294-295



I find Jakes posts to be of more substance than a dumb country boy's.


----------



## Wry Catcher

mdn2000 said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you unaware of Oppenhiemer, Mccarthy was aware of Oppenhiemer, lots of high level people were aware of Oppenhiemer, of course Oppenhiemer was not part of the Mccarthy story but it is part of the times that Mccarthy was a politician thus like all the politicians of the time they knew about Oppenhiemer, I forget the year of Oppenhiemer's trial, I think three years before Mccarthy began his work.
> 
> So are you aware of Oppenhiemer's known associations with Communists. As much as Oppenhiemer associated with Communists I cannot see how Oppehiemer was allowed on the Manhatten project.
> 
> So how can we associate all the Mccarthy did with being drunk and ignore Oppenhiemer, Oppenhiemer came before Mccarthy, the prosecution of Oppenhiemer did not involve anything Mccarthy did, an impossibility as Oppenhiemer is one example of Communism long before Mccarthy came along.
> 
> So are you ignorant of Oppenhiemer thus your only option is to call me ignorant.
> 
> The case is now shut and closed, Oppenhiemer vindicates Mccarthy. Oppenhiemer willingly associated with real life card carrying members of the Communist party.
> 
> Not one person is willing or able to address Oppenhiemer, everyone has either ignored this fact of history or your simply ignorant of history.
> 
> Case closed, Oppenhiemer, some people always wondered why Stalin seemed to know about the Atomic bomb at Potsdam, Oppenhiemer was privy to the secrets and had daily, extended contacts with card carrying members of the Communist party.
> 
> Communism was alive and well, working to be a part of the government, its simple fact, easily proven, over and over, from KGB files to public records. The proof is everywhere.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Read slowly moron, maybe you'll get it.  The end doesn't justify the means (notwithstanding your paranoid delusions)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Me being a moron has nothing to do with points being made. The end does not justify the means, depends on what you speak of. Are you now stating that McCarthy was right and it was the way he handled it that was wrong or is this just your attempt to deflect from a fact I posted that vindicates Mccarthy.
> 
> It appears your the one who is ignornant, I presented a fact that is irrefutable, one of hundreds of facts concerning Communist activity in foreign countries.
> 
> Sorry if you have based your information on the writings of Zinn and Chomsky, Zinn and Chomsky did not do thier homework.
Click to expand...


The fact is you're not a moron, you're simply not very bright.  Consider, it was McCarthy who defined the 'end'; I have no way of knowing what his ultimate goal was.  Did he want to be president?  Did he want attention?  Was his brain so addeled by alcohol he believed destroying peoples lives, making allegation where no objective data was offered or even available was in the best interest of the nation?

The means were evil; the end he sought is irrelevant.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Like McCarthy, I look at Communist infiltration of US State as one the single worst turning points in US history, Progressives see it as a cause for celebration


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Wry Catcher said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> Read slowly moron, maybe you'll get it.  The end doesn't justify the means (notwithstanding your paranoid delusions)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Me being a moron has nothing to do with points being made. The end does not justify the means, depends on what you speak of. Are you now stating that McCarthy was right and it was the way he handled it that was wrong or is this just your attempt to deflect from a fact I posted that vindicates Mccarthy.
> 
> It appears your the one who is ignornant, I presented a fact that is irrefutable, one of hundreds of facts concerning Communist activity in foreign countries.
> 
> Sorry if you have based your information on the writings of Zinn and Chomsky, Zinn and Chomsky did not do thier homework.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The fact is you're not a moron, you're simply not very bright.  Consider, it was McCarthy who defined the 'end'; I have no way of knowing what his ultimate goal was.  Did he want to be president?  Did he want attention?  Was his brain so addeled by alcohol he believed destroying peoples lives, making allegation where no objective data was offered or even available was in the best interest of the nation?
> 
> The means were evil; the end he sought is irrelevant.
Click to expand...


Wow!  You don't know ANYTHING about McCarthy, almost 1,000 unread posts in and you come up with a sparkler like that!

You got your Brand of Stupid Custom Fitted this Morning! Like i said, on you it looks good


----------



## Gadawg73

mdn2000 said:


> Wry Catcher said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> You're parroting crap from a 60 year old playbook that has been completely discredited, even your Soviet friends admit they had a robust spy program at US State and that Alder, Currie, Service and many others were genuine Communist spies.
> 
> Stay ignorant, on you it looks good
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You know I consider you an idiot.  I suspect many vistors to this MB agree with me.  Simply because others  patronize you, doesn't make anything you post sensible.
> McCarthy was a liar, a drunk and totally discredited by his contemporaries.
> I am an agnostic, but I still have hope that there is a heaven and hell (it sucks being raised catholic and having a brain) and both you and McCarthy enjoy eternity in hell.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How much of a drunk, was he drunk all the time, falling down, slobbering drunk, or was it an occasional drink, I know what Goldwater wrote about McCarthy's drinking, sounds to me that its a bit exagerrated simply to state McCarthy was a drunk.
> 
> Fact of the matter is there is no way a drunk can get elected, of course I have asked to define being a drunk, because that matters.
> 
> Communist were active in our government, to state otherwise is wrong. Could anyone of addressed the issue in a calm and civil manner, during the times of racism and the civil rights movement, is there any other way to address the issue of Communism without be loud and forceful and pissing off a lot of people.
> 
> Anyhow, history shows the Communist penetration was deep.
> 
> Oppenhiemer is a great example of what Mccarthy was fighting.
Click to expand...


The atomic bomb was dropped in 1945.
Saved 1million American casualties including possibly my father who was on Saipan training for the invasion as a Marine Captain in 1945 2nd Marines.
Name ONE thing that Oppenheimer did as a communist that inhibited the Manhattan Project, the development of the atomic bomb and the delivery of the atomic bomb.
One thing. Name it. How was he anti American in ANY WAY.


----------



## editec

I put right wing fruitcakes trying to revise McCathey as some kind of American hero in the same class of ideological idiots as those left wing chumps who are still trying to tell us that STALIN was a good, but misunderstood man.


----------



## Wry Catcher

CrusaderFrank said:


> Like McCarthy, I look at Communist infiltration of US State as one the single worst turning points in US history, Progressives see it as a cause for celebration



So says the Moron.


----------



## JakeStarkey

mdn2000 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jake and Gadawg are funny because they think that they are both debater and referee.  We post and link to sources while they go, "Yeah? Nyah nyah nyah!" and then declare themselves the winner.
> 
> They bring up Gen Snow, when Snow was clearly the Jake Starkey of his time.
> 
> Gen Snow would say, "McCarthy is a liar!  State Dept is free of Communist influence!" Then when asked to show proof, Gen Snow, like Jake threatening to quote footnotes to a book he still did not read, made a total fool of himself before Congress.
> 
> Blacklisted by history: the untold ... - Google Books
> 
> Pages 294-295
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I find Jakes posts to be of more substance than a dumb country boy's.
Click to expand...


The far right's evidence has been discounted time and time again, and the far right here won't evaluate the counter evidence, so all they can do now is attack personality

When the far right begins strawman argumentation, they admit they have lost the discussion.

Guys, why won't you answer though I have posted this at least ten times, "Why was it JM's own party members who pulled him down?"


----------



## Mark LaRochelle

Gadawg73 said:


> Mark LaRochelle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Excellent post. Where can the original source be found?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Truman Library. Original transcripts from the interview. McKinzie also wrote a book on it.
Click to expand...


Thank you, gadawg, for identifying your source. You're a scholar and a gentleman. (By the way, what's the name of the McKinzie book?) I originally suspected that this was your source, but I had discarded that hypothesis because your quote of Gen. Snow is slightly different from what Snow actually says in the transcript, posted at

Truman Library - Conrad E. Snow Oral History Interview

You quote Snow as saying



Gadawg73 said:


> "I accused McCarthy of making false statements about matters he knew were false"



What Snow actually says in the transcript is "I accused Senator McCarthy of making false statements about matters, that he *must have known* were false" (p. 30) and "I told Senator McCarthy to his face at that hearing that he was making statements that were untrue and *he knew they were untrue*." (p. 31)

I remember discussing this interview with Evans while he was writing _Blacklisted by History_. I thought I knew a lot about McCarthy from reading Oshinsky, Rovere, Reeves, etc., and I was always looking for something to trip Evans up. I brandished this interview and told him it seemed pretty damning for McCarthy. As usual, Evans directed me to the primary source, the hearing transcripts. What I found there shattered some of my fondest illusions.

In his congressional testimony, Snow, then chairman of the State Department Loyalty-Security Board, accused McCarthy of lying. Sen. Homer Ferguson (R-MI) said, "[W]e are going to ask for the proof that these statements by Senator McCarthy were false....&#8221; Asked for examples of lies he alleged McCarthy had told. Snow responded: "the accusation is that the State Department had 205, or whatever number he chose to call it, known Communists.... He made the same statement over and over again."

Snow made three false statements here: the number of suspects, the allegations against them, and their locations.

In place of &#8220;helping to shape our foreign policy,&#8221; Snow said &#8220;the State Department&#8221;; in place of &#8220;57,&#8221; he said &#8220;205, or whatever number he chose to call it&#8221; (he made the &#8220;205&#8221; allegation more explicit in the McKinzie interview: &#8220;In February, 1950, Senator Joseph M. McCarthy stated publicly that there were 205 known Communists in the State Department.&#8221; [p. 50]); and in place of &#8220;individuals who would appear to be either card carrying Communists or certainly loyal to the Communist Party,&#8221; he said &#8220;known Communists.&#8221;

Regarding the number of suspects: The charge that McCarthy had said &#8220;205&#8221; (rather than &#8220;57,&#8221; as he claimed) in Wheeling was first made by Sen. William Benton (D-CT), as the very first charge in a bill he wrote to eject McCarthy from the Senate. The Senate (then under control of the Democratic Party) sent staff investigators to Wheeling to try to substantiate Benton's charges. The investigation concluded that what McCarthy actually said was "I have in my hand 57 cases of individuals who would appear to be either card-carrying members or certainly loyal to the Communist Party, but who nevertheless are still helping to shape our foreign policy&#8221; -- exactly what McCarthy claimed he had said. According to one investigator: &#8220;The newly unearthed evidence demolished Senator Benton&#8217;s charges in all their material respects and thoroughly proved Senator McCarthy&#8217;s account of the facts to be truthful.&#8221; The investigative memo on all this was quietly buried, but the charge that McCarthy had said &#8220;205&#8221; was likewise dropped. Thus the _Congressional Record_ to this day records that McCarthy said "57," not "205."

Confronted with these facts, Snow pleaded ignorance. McCarthy asked, "Mr. Snow, are you aware of the fact that the investigators for the Gillette-Monroney Committee went to Wheeling, W.Va., and completely disproved what you have said?" Snow replied: "I am not aware of that." McCarthy asked, "Did you not read that in the paper?" Snow answered "No, sir." McCarthy asked, "Did you not think that before going out and making that statement, that you should check on matters like that?"

Even Benton didn't deny that McCarthy had said &#8220;individuals who would appear to be either card carrying Communists or certainly loyal to the Communist Party,&#8221; rather than &#8220;known Communists.&#8221; As I mentioned:



Mark LaRochelle said:


> Fellow-travelers who were not CP members but were &#8220;loyal to the Communist Party&#8221; were explicitly targeted by the Truman Loyalty Order (&#8220;Membership in, affiliation with or *sympathetic association with* any foreign or domestic organization, association, movement, group or combination of persons, designated by the Attorney General as totalitarian, Fascist, *Communist*



Benton likewise never denied that McCarthy had said &#8220;helping to shape our foreign policy&#8221; (not &#8220;in the State Department&#8221. Not all McCarthy's suspects were in the State Department; some were at Treasury, Commerce, the UN, etc. (Likewise, even Benton never claimed that McCarthy used the number 205 &#8220;over and over again&#8221;; his allegation was that McCarthy had used this number only once, in the Wheeling speech, thereafter switching to 57.)

Snow's next example of an alleged lie was McCarthy's statement that the State Department's personnel files had been tampered with. Snow knew this charge was false, he testified, because the files had been in his possession since June 9, 1947. But McCarthy's statement had referred to depositions from four current and former State Department employees, stating that they had been ordered to remove material from these files in 1946.

Regarding these depositions, Snow again pleaded ignorance. McCarthy asked Snow, "Are you aware of the fact that the statements cover a period of time before June 9, 1947?" Snow replied: "No, sir." Snow then made an astonishing admission: "I was so confident that the files had never been rifled that I had no presentiment of any duty to investigate what the basis of your speech was."

Snow's next example of an alleged lie was McCarthy's statement that Dean Acheson (then Under Secretary of State for Economic Affairs) had ousted both J. Anthony Panuch, Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Administration (in charge of security), and State Department security officer Robert Bannerman from the department.

Panuch had reported to the FBI that Alger Hiss, then Director of the State Department's Office of Special Political Affairs, was part of &#8220;an enormous espionage ring in Washington&#8221; back in 1946 -- two years before Whittaker Chambers' testimony; the same year, Bannerman had recommended the dismissal of William Stone, director of the State Department's Foreign Economic Administration (controlling the export of military technology).

Among other peculiarities, Stone had been a member of the board of the journal _Amerasia_, in the offices of which the OSS had discovered hundreds of stolen classified U.S. government documents; he was also a founder of the U.S. branch of the Institute for Pacific Relations, which was identified in a unanimous report of the bipartisan Senate Judiciary Committee as &#8220;a vehicle used by the Communists to orientate American far eastern policies toward Communist objectives.&#8221; He was nevertheless cleared by the State Department board chaired by Snow. When McCarthy blew the whistle, Truman's Civil Service Loyalty Review Board took Stone's case out of Snow's hands for review, whereupon Stone abruptly resigned.

McCarthy asked Snow, "Do you say I lied when I said Acheson had gotten rid of them [Panuch and Bannerman]?" Snow replied: "Yes." McCarthy asked, "You know that Bannerman and Panuch are no longer there, do you not?" Snow fell back on his ignorance defense, answering: "I don't know that; no." McCarthy asked "...on what theory can you say I was lying when you now tell us you do not know who the men were; you do not know who fired them; you do not even know how they were forced out of the department?"

Yes, Snow accused McCarthy of lying, but when asked for substantiation, it turned out that he didn't know what he was talking about: He didn't know that a congressional investigation had found one of his charges to be false; he didn't know about the depositions showing another to be false; and he didn't even know that Bannerman and Panuch had been ousted, much less who was or was not responsible.

Not only did Snow fail to show that McCarthy *knew what he was saying was false*, he failed even to show that it was *wrong*. Moreover, even if McCarthy had been wrong in any of these statements, Snow had zero evidence to back up his accusation that McCarthy *knew what he was saying was wrong*. Since Snow's allegations against McCarthy *actually were* false, should we jump to the conclusion that Snow was lying? Since he assumed without evidence that McCarthy was guilty, should we apply the same standard to Snow? I don't know whether Snow *knew* what he was saying was false, or if he really was as clueless as he appeared to be. When he repeated these false allegations to McKinzie 20 years later, I don't know whether Snow *remembered* that what he was saying was false, or if his memory was playing tricks on him. So I'll give him the benefit of the doubt he denied to McCarthy.

But if Snow was telling the truth, he didn't bother to check the facts before going off half-cocked to make wild, unfounded, and false allegations of serious wrongdoing, with reckless disregard for the character of his target.

That's pretty much a textbook definition of &#8220;McCarthyism.&#8221;


----------



## mdn2000

JakeStarkey said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jake and Gadawg are funny because they think that they are both debater and referee.  We post and link to sources while they go, "Yeah? Nyah nyah nyah!" and then declare themselves the winner.
> 
> They bring up Gen Snow, when Snow was clearly the Jake Starkey of his time.
> 
> Gen Snow would say, "McCarthy is a liar!  State Dept is free of Communist influence!" Then when asked to show proof, Gen Snow, like Jake threatening to quote footnotes to a book he still did not read, made a total fool of himself before Congress.
> 
> Blacklisted by history: the untold ... - Google Books
> 
> Pages 294-295
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I find Jakes posts to be of more substance than a dumb country boy's.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The far right's evidence has been discounted time and time again, and the far right here won't evaluate the counter evidence, so all they can do now is attack personality
> 
> When the far right begins strawman argumentation, they admit they have lost the discussion.
> 
> Guys, why won't you answer though I have posted this at least ten times, "Why was it JM's own party members who pulled him down?"
Click to expand...


My evidence has yet to be addressed, Oppenhiemer.

I can see how you can read my post as insulting, in hindsight it reads that way, the Dumb Country Boy remark is another user I did not wish to identify personally, the user will recognize this description of himself for its a quote of his own he made in reference of himself. 

If you notice I do not randomly join a debate with you, that is because I do not know enough of the many subjects you participate in. I have not studied Mccarthy, I know a bit, I hear a bit, and I trust what I hear because of the people who state it. I have yet to find anything that counters the facts I gather from my sources. 

I cannot address your point without a huge internet search, my typical way of addressing subjects that interest me is to buy dozens of books and read them. Dozens of used books that seem relevant, books by people who lived in the times and books by historians. 

If the arguement is that Mccarthy was grasping at straws and there was not a threat then that is easily proven as bullshit. I do not need to address Mccarthy at all to show the historical facts. The facts stand on thier own. 

If your arguement is that Mccarthy was a drunk, great, big deal. 

Oppenhiemer factually consorted with known Communists. 

When I use the term Communist and as the term is used historically its not used in reference to an ideology, that is Marxism. Communism is the specific to the USSR, to state people knowingly associated with Communists states said person was associating with a person who affiliated with the Communism, or Communist working with the USSR.

This is not a matter that Mccarthy thought Liberal Ideology was Marxist, Mccarthy did not attack Ideology, Mccarthy went after people known to be working or connected or contacting Communist working directly with Communist as in Communism is specific to Russia. 

Is that clear, the fight was not against ideology, it was a fight against Communist connected to or working with the USSR against the USA from within our corporations to our government. 

I think the left must make this discussion about Mccarthy because the facts are to ugly, the facts stand on thier own, facts and investigations conducted by Truman and his administration, concerns identified by the Roosevelt administration, facts that are established long before Mccarthy. 

Oppenhiemer, so simple, impossible to refute, to discuss Oppenhiemer the truth is painfully clear. Those who attack Mccarthy either knowingly or unwittingly are diverting the attention away from the facts.

Communist were actively spying and stealing and working from within our government.


----------



## Gadawg73

Mark LaRochelle said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mark LaRochelle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Excellent post. Where can the original source be found?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Truman Library. Original transcripts from the interview. McKinzie also wrote a book on it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Thank you, gadawg, for identifying your source. You're a scholar and a gentleman. (By the way, what's the name of the McKinzie book?) I originally suspected that this was your source, but I had discarded that hypothesis because your quote of Gen. Snow is slightly different from what Snow actually says in the transcript, posted at
> 
> Truman Library - Conrad E. Snow Oral History Interview
> 
> You quote Snow as saying
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> "I accused McCarthy of making false statements about matters he knew were false"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What Snow actually says in the transcript is "I accused Senator McCarthy of making false statements about matters, that he *must have known* were false" (p. 30) and "I told Senator McCarthy to his face at that hearing that he was making statements that were untrue and *he knew they were untrue*." (p. 31)
> 
> I remember discussing this interview with Evans while he was writing _Blacklisted by History_. I thought I knew a lot about McCarthy from reading Oshinsky, Rovere, Reeves, etc., and I was always looking for something to trip Evans up. I brandished this interview and told him it seemed pretty damning for McCarthy. As usual, Evans directed me to the primary source, the hearing transcripts. What I found there shattered some of my fondest illusions.
> 
> In his congressional testimony, Snow, then chairman of the State Department Loyalty-Security Board, accused McCarthy of lying. Sen. Homer Ferguson (R-MI) said, "[W]e are going to ask for the proof that these statements by Senator McCarthy were false.... Asked for examples of lies he alleged McCarthy had told. Snow responded: "the accusation is that the State Department had 205, or whatever number he chose to call it, known Communists.... He made the same statement over and over again."
> 
> Snow made three false statements here: the number of suspects, the allegations against them, and their locations.
> 
> In place of helping to shape our foreign policy, Snow said the State Department; in place of 57, he said 205, or whatever number he chose to call it (he made the 205 allegation more explicit in the McKinzie interview: In February, 1950, Senator Joseph M. McCarthy stated publicly that there were 205 known Communists in the State Department. [p. 50]); and in place of individuals who would appear to be either card carrying Communists or certainly loyal to the Communist Party, he said known Communists.
> 
> Regarding the number of suspects: The charge that McCarthy had said 205 (rather than 57, as he claimed) in Wheeling, was first made by Sen. William Benton (D-CT), as the very first charge in a bill he wrote to eject McCarthy from the Senate. The Senate (then under control of the Democratic Party) sent staff investigators to Wheeling to try to substantiate Benton's charges. The investigation concluded that what McCarthy actually said was "I have in my hand 57 cases of individuals who would appear to be either card-carrying members or certainly loyal to the Communist Party, but who nevertheless are still helping to shape our foreign policy -- exactly what McCarthy claimed he had said. According to one investigator: The newly unearthed evidence demolished Senator Bentons charges in all their material respects and thoroughly proved Senator McCarthys account of the facts to be truthful. The investigative memo on all this was quietly buried, but the charge that McCarthy had said 205 was likewise dropped. Thus McCarthy's statement is recorded in the _Congressional Record_ to this day as reading "57," not "205."
> 
> McCarthy asked, "Mr. Snow, are you aware of the fact that the investigators for the Gillette-Monroney Committee went to Wheeling, W.Va., and completely disproved what you have said?" Snow replied: "I am not aware of that." McCarthy asked, "Did you not read that in the paper?" Snow answered "No, sir." McCarthy asked, "Did you not think that before going out and making that statement, that you should check on matters like that?"
> 
> Even Benton didn't deny that McCarthy had said individuals who would appear to be either card carrying Communists or certainly loyal to the Communist Party, rather than known Communists. As I mentioned:
> 
> 
> 
> Mark LaRochelle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fellow-travelers who were not CP members but were loyal to the Communist Party were explicitly targeted by the Truman Loyalty Order (Membership in, affiliation with or *sympathetic association with* any foreign or domestic organization, association, movement, group or combination of persons, designated by the Attorney General as totalitarian, Fascist, *Communist*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Benton likewise never denied that McCarthy had said helping to shape our foreign policy (not in the State Department). Not all McCarthy's suspects were in the State Department; some were at Treasury, Commerce the UN, etc. (Likewise, even Benton never claimed that McCarthy used the number 205 over and over again; his allegation was that McCarthy had used this number only once, in the Wheeling speech, thereafter switching to 57.)
> 
> Snow's next example of an alleged lie was McCarthy's statement that the State Department's personnel files had been tampered with. Snow knew this charge was false, he testified, because the files had been in his possession since June 9, 1947. But McCarthy's statement had referred to depositions from four current and former State Department employees, stating that they had been ordered to remove material from these files in 1946.
> 
> McCarthy asked Snow, "Are you aware of the fact that the statements cover a period of time before June 9, 1947?" Snow replied: "No, sir." Astonishingly, Snow admitted, "I was so confident that the files had never been rifled that I had no presentiment of any duty to investigate what the basis of your speech was."
> 
> Snow's next example of an alleged lie was McCarthy's statement that Dean Acheson (then Under Secretary of State for Economic Affairs) had ousted both J. Anthony Panuch, Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Administration (in charge of security), and and State Department security officer Robert Bannerman from the department.
> 
> Panuch had reported to the FBI that Alger Hiss, then Director of the State Department's Office of Special Political Affairs, was part of an enormous espionage ring in Washington back in 1946 -- two years before Whittaker Chambers' testimony; the same year, Bannerman had recommended the dismissal of William Stone, director of the State Department's Foreign Economic Administration (controlling the export of military technology).
> 
> Among other peculiarities, Stone had been a member of the board of the journal _Amerasia_, in the offices of which the OSS had discovered hundreds of stolen classified U.S. government documents; he was also a founder of the U.S. branch of the Institute for Pacific Relations, which was identified in a unanimous report of the bipartisan Senate Judiciary Committee as a vehicle used by the Communists to orientate American far eastern policies toward Communist objectives. He was nevertheless cleared by the State Department board chaired by Snow. When McCarthy blew the whistle, Truman's Civil Service Loyalty Review Board took Stone's case out of Snow's hands for review, whereupon Stone abruptly resigned.
> 
> McCarthy asked Snow, "Do you say I lied when I said Acheson had gotten rid of them [Panuch and Bannerman]?" Snow replied: "Yes." McCarthy asked, "You know that Bannerman and Panuch are no longer there, do you not?" Snow answered: "I don't know that; no." McCarthy asked "...on what theory can you say I was lying when you now tell us you do not know who the men were; you do not know who fired them; you do not even know how they were forced out of the department?"
> 
> Yes, Snow accused McCarthy of lying, but when asked for specifics, it turned out that he didn't know what he was talking about: He didn't know that a congressional investigation had found one of his charges to be false; he didn't know about the depositions showing another to be false; and he didn't even know that Bannerman and Panuch had been ousted, much less who was or was not responsible.
> 
> Not only did Snow fail to show that McCarthy *knew what he was saying was false*, he failed even to show that it was *wrong*. Moreover, even if McCarthy had been wrong in any of these statements, Snow had zero evidence to back up his accusation that McCarthy *knew what he was saying was wrong*. Since Snow's allegations against McCarthy *actually were* false, should we jump to the conclusion that Snow was lying? Since he assumed without evidence that McCarthy was guilty, should we apply the same standard to Snow? I don't know whether Snow *knew* what he was saying was false, or if he really was as clueless as he appeared to be. When he repeated these false allegations to McKinzie 20 years later, I don't know whether Snow *remembered* that what he was saying was false, or if his memory was playing tricks on him. So I'll give him the benefit of the doubt he denied to McCarthy.
> 
> Nevertheless, if Snow was telling the truth, then he didn't bother to check the facts before going off half-cocked to make wild, unfounded, and false allegations of serious wrongdoing, with reckless disregard for the character of his target.
> 
> That's pretty much a textbook definition of McCarthyism.
Click to expand...


Snow never made any false allegations.


----------



## Dante

Joe was a drunken scoundrel who died as he live...a pathetic and lonely death had he.

good riddance to an evil man if ever there were one


----------



## Gadawg73

mdn2000 said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I find Jakes posts to be of more substance than a dumb country boy's.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The far right's evidence has been discounted time and time again, and the far right here won't evaluate the counter evidence, so all they can do now is attack personality
> 
> When the far right begins strawman argumentation, they admit they have lost the discussion.
> 
> Guys, why won't you answer though I have posted this at least ten times, "Why was it JM's own party members who pulled him down?"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My evidence has yet to be addressed, Oppenhiemer.
> 
> I can see how you can read my post as insulting, in hindsight it reads that way, the Dumb Country Boy remark is another user I did not wish to identify personally, the user will recognize this description of himself for its a quote of his own he made in reference of himself.
> 
> If you notice I do not randomly join a debate with you, that is because I do not know enough of the many subjects you participate in. I have not studied Mccarthy, I know a bit, I hear a bit, and I trust what I hear because of the people who state it. I have yet to find anything that counters the facts I gather from my sources.
> 
> I cannot address your point without a huge internet search, my typical way of addressing subjects that interest me is to buy dozens of books and read them. Dozens of used books that seem relevant, books by people who lived in the times and books by historians.
> 
> If the arguement is that Mccarthy was grasping at straws and there was not a threat then that is easily proven as bullshit. I do not need to address Mccarthy at all to show the historical facts. The facts stand on thier own.
> 
> If your arguement is that Mccarthy was a drunk, great, big deal.
> 
> Oppenhiemer factually consorted with known Communists.
> 
> When I use the term Communist and as the term is used historically its not used in reference to an ideology, that is Marxism. Communism is the specific to the USSR, to state people knowingly associated with Communists states said person was associating with a person who affiliated with the Communism, or Communist working with the USSR.
> 
> This is not a matter that Mccarthy thought Liberal Ideology was Marxist, Mccarthy did not attack Ideology, Mccarthy went after people known to be working or connected or contacting Communist working directly with Communist as in Communism is specific to Russia.
> 
> Is that clear, the fight was not against ideology, it was a fight against Communist connected to or working with the USSR against the USA from within our corporations to our government.
> 
> I think the left must make this discussion about Mccarthy because the facts are to ugly, the facts stand on thier own, facts and investigations conducted by Truman and his administration, concerns identified by the Roosevelt administration, facts that are established long before Mccarthy.
> 
> Oppenhiemer, so simple, impossible to refute, to discuss Oppenhiemer the truth is painfully clear. Those who attack Mccarthy either knowingly or unwittingly are diverting the attention away from the facts.
> 
> Communist were actively spying and stealing and working from within our government.
Click to expand...


Go ahead and call me a "dumb country boy". Doesn't matter to me.
Sticks and stones. 
That is all you have. I addressed Oppenheimer. He was the head of The Manhattan Project and won the war for us in the Pacific.
Is it against the law to be a communist? 
Facts are a real bitch for you, aren't they?
Talk is cheap. I used to let my pads do the talking. 
Name callers are weak.


----------



## Mark LaRochelle

Gadawg73 said:


> Snow never made any false allegations.





Gadawg73 said:


> McKinzie also wrote a book on it.



If you don't mind,



Mark LaRochelle said:


> ...what's the name of the McKinzie book?


----------



## Mark LaRochelle

Gadawg73 said:


> Name ONE thing that Oppenheimer did as a communist that inhibited the Manhattan Project, the development of the atomic bomb and the delivery of the atomic bomb.



As far as I know, Oppenheimer didn't do anything to inhibit the development of the atomic bomb. Everything I have read shows just the opposite, that he worked like the devil to get the thing up and working as soon as possible.

Gen. Leslie Groves, Oppenheimer's boss in the Manhattan Project, gave him very high marks for his indispensable role in bringing the atomic bomb into existence, although Groves did admit to some suspicion that Oppenheimer might have been involved in the establishment of rules that "tended to break down compartmentalization" of data at Los Alamos, making it exceedingly difficult to control the diffusion of secrets and prevent espionage. Groves blamed this "breakdown" for the fact that David Greenglass and Klaus Fuchs were able to commit atomic espionage while working under Oppenheimer's supervision. (We now know that these were not the only Soviet spies at Los Alamos: Theodore Hall, Boris Podolsky and Russell McNutt were even more successful -- not only in transmitting more damaging information than Fuchs and Greenglass, but in avoiding detection.)

Groves also expressed concern when some of the people Oppenheimer brought into the project became enmeshed in this conspiracy. For example, FBI surveillance caught Joe Weinberg, one of Oppenheimer's Berkeley grad students (who got into the project with Oppenheimer as a reference), covertly transferring information to NKVD agent "Steve Nelson" (Stephan Mesarosh); even after FBI surveillance caught another Oppenheimer protegé, Giovanni Lomanitz, covertly supplying Mesarosh highly sensitive information, Oppenheimer still fought to stop the Army from removing Lomanitz from the project. What concerned Groves most, however, was Oppenheimer's admitted lying and covering up for the secret Communist Haakon Chevalier, who tried (and failed) to recruit Oppenheimer into the conspiracy. Even after Oppenheimer named Chevalier, Groves said he "had the very definite impression that Dr. Oppenheimer wanted to protect his friends of long standing, possibly his brother" Frank, a Communist Party member Oppenheimer had brought into the project.

Groves said he knew that Oppenheimer represented a risk, but it was a calculated risk. Since the Nazi-Soviet pact had broken down, thought Groves, Oppenheimer's secret membership in the Communist Party might even be a positive in the war against the Axis. And who can argue with the results?

Oppenheimer's problems came afterward, during the Cold War. The calculus of risk involved in giving a Communist access to nuclear secrets when the adversary was the Nazis became very different once the adversary became the Soviets. Oppenheimer became obsessed with the idea that to prevent the destruction of the human race the U.S. had to turn its nuclear monopoly over to the UN or other international control. After he tried to persuade President Truman to do this, Truman became furious, telling Acheson, "I don't want to see that son-of-a-bitch in this office ever again."

When the Soviets broke the U.S. nuclear monopoly in 1949, the U.S. embarked on a crash program to develop the hydrogen bomb. Although he had been gung-ho in the development of the A-bomb, Oppenheimer took a different stance on the H-bomb. This development he did try mightily to inhibit. The Atomic Energy Commission asked Oppenheimer, chairman of the AEC's General Advisory Committee (GAC) on Science, what the GAC members thought of the H-bomb. One GAC member, Glen Seaborg, wrote to Oppenheimer, "I have been unable to come to the conclusion that we should not&#8221; proceed with this crash program to develop an H-bomb. &#8220;I would have to hear some good arguments before I could take on sufficient courage to recommend not going toward such a program."

Just as he had in the Chevalier incident, Oppenheimer lied, telling the AEC he found "a surprising unanimity [among GAC members]&#8212;to me very surprising&#8212;that the United States ought not to take the initiative... in an all out program for the development of thermonuclear weapons."

But what really persuaded the AEC that Oppenheimer had become an unacceptable risk were his 1953 meetings in Paris with Chevalier, whom Oppenheimer had admitted had tried to recruit him into atomic espionage for the Soviets. As a member of the GAC, Oppenheimer was required by law to report all such encounters; this he failed to do, fomenting suspicion that he was up to something covert.

I wouldn't call it "un-American" but, according to members of the underground Communist cell at Berkeley, during the Nazi-Soviet pact Oppenheimer was the author of a notorious pamphlet denouncing FDR as a "counter-revolutionary war-monger" for giving aid the the British, who were then fighting for their lives under the Nazi blitz.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Gadawg73 said:


> Mark LaRochelle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Truman Library. Original transcripts from the interview. McKinzie also wrote a book on it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you, gadawg, for identifying your source. You're a scholar and a gentleman. (By the way, what's the name of the McKinzie book?) I originally suspected that this was your source, but I had discarded that hypothesis because your quote of Gen. Snow is slightly different from what Snow actually says in the transcript, posted at
> 
> Truman Library - Conrad E. Snow Oral History Interview
> 
> You quote Snow as saying
> 
> 
> 
> What Snow actually says in the transcript is "I accused Senator McCarthy of making false statements about matters, that he *must have known* were false" (p. 30) and "I told Senator McCarthy to his face at that hearing that he was making statements that were untrue and *he knew they were untrue*." (p. 31)
> 
> I remember discussing this interview with Evans while he was writing _Blacklisted by History_. I thought I knew a lot about McCarthy from reading Oshinsky, Rovere, Reeves, etc., and I was always looking for something to trip Evans up. I brandished this interview and told him it seemed pretty damning for McCarthy. As usual, Evans directed me to the primary source, the hearing transcripts. What I found there shattered some of my fondest illusions.
> 
> In his congressional testimony, Snow, then chairman of the State Department Loyalty-Security Board, accused McCarthy of lying. Sen. Homer Ferguson (R-MI) said, "[W]e are going to ask for the proof that these statements by Senator McCarthy were false.... Asked for examples of lies he alleged McCarthy had told. Snow responded: "the accusation is that the State Department had 205, or whatever number he chose to call it, known Communists.... He made the same statement over and over again."
> 
> Snow made three false statements here: the number of suspects, the allegations against them, and their locations.
> 
> In place of helping to shape our foreign policy, Snow said the State Department; in place of 57, he said 205, or whatever number he chose to call it (he made the 205 allegation more explicit in the McKinzie interview: In February, 1950, Senator Joseph M. McCarthy stated publicly that there were 205 known Communists in the State Department. [p. 50]); and in place of individuals who would appear to be either card carrying Communists or certainly loyal to the Communist Party, he said known Communists.
> 
> Regarding the number of suspects: The charge that McCarthy had said 205 (rather than 57, as he claimed) in Wheeling, was first made by Sen. William Benton (D-CT), as the very first charge in a bill he wrote to eject McCarthy from the Senate. The Senate (then under control of the Democratic Party) sent staff investigators to Wheeling to try to substantiate Benton's charges. The investigation concluded that what McCarthy actually said was "I have in my hand 57 cases of individuals who would appear to be either card-carrying members or certainly loyal to the Communist Party, but who nevertheless are still helping to shape our foreign policy -- exactly what McCarthy claimed he had said. According to one investigator: The newly unearthed evidence demolished Senator Bentons charges in all their material respects and thoroughly proved Senator McCarthys account of the facts to be truthful. The investigative memo on all this was quietly buried, but the charge that McCarthy had said 205 was likewise dropped. Thus McCarthy's statement is recorded in the _Congressional Record_ to this day as reading "57," not "205."
> 
> McCarthy asked, "Mr. Snow, are you aware of the fact that the investigators for the Gillette-Monroney Committee went to Wheeling, W.Va., and completely disproved what you have said?" Snow replied: "I am not aware of that." McCarthy asked, "Did you not read that in the paper?" Snow answered "No, sir." McCarthy asked, "Did you not think that before going out and making that statement, that you should check on matters like that?"
> 
> Even Benton didn't deny that McCarthy had said individuals who would appear to be either card carrying Communists or certainly loyal to the Communist Party, rather than known Communists. As I mentioned:
> 
> 
> 
> Mark LaRochelle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fellow-travelers who were not CP members but were loyal to the Communist Party were explicitly targeted by the Truman Loyalty Order (Membership in, affiliation with or *sympathetic association with* any foreign or domestic organization, association, movement, group or combination of persons, designated by the Attorney General as totalitarian, Fascist, *Communist*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Benton likewise never denied that McCarthy had said helping to shape our foreign policy (not in the State Department). Not all McCarthy's suspects were in the State Department; some were at Treasury, Commerce the UN, etc. (Likewise, even Benton never claimed that McCarthy used the number 205 over and over again; his allegation was that McCarthy had used this number only once, in the Wheeling speech, thereafter switching to 57.)
> 
> Snow's next example of an alleged lie was McCarthy's statement that the State Department's personnel files had been tampered with. Snow knew this charge was false, he testified, because the files had been in his possession since June 9, 1947. But McCarthy's statement had referred to depositions from four current and former State Department employees, stating that they had been ordered to remove material from these files in 1946.
> 
> McCarthy asked Snow, "Are you aware of the fact that the statements cover a period of time before June 9, 1947?" Snow replied: "No, sir." Astonishingly, Snow admitted, "I was so confident that the files had never been rifled that I had no presentiment of any duty to investigate what the basis of your speech was."
> 
> Snow's next example of an alleged lie was McCarthy's statement that Dean Acheson (then Under Secretary of State for Economic Affairs) had ousted both J. Anthony Panuch, Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Administration (in charge of security), and and State Department security officer Robert Bannerman from the department.
> 
> Panuch had reported to the FBI that Alger Hiss, then Director of the State Department's Office of Special Political Affairs, was part of an enormous espionage ring in Washington back in 1946 -- two years before Whittaker Chambers' testimony; the same year, Bannerman had recommended the dismissal of William Stone, director of the State Department's Foreign Economic Administration (controlling the export of military technology).
> 
> Among other peculiarities, Stone had been a member of the board of the journal _Amerasia_, in the offices of which the OSS had discovered hundreds of stolen classified U.S. government documents; he was also a founder of the U.S. branch of the Institute for Pacific Relations, which was identified in a unanimous report of the bipartisan Senate Judiciary Committee as a vehicle used by the Communists to orientate American far eastern policies toward Communist objectives. He was nevertheless cleared by the State Department board chaired by Snow. When McCarthy blew the whistle, Truman's Civil Service Loyalty Review Board took Stone's case out of Snow's hands for review, whereupon Stone abruptly resigned.
> 
> McCarthy asked Snow, "Do you say I lied when I said Acheson had gotten rid of them [Panuch and Bannerman]?" Snow replied: "Yes." McCarthy asked, "You know that Bannerman and Panuch are no longer there, do you not?" Snow answered: "I don't know that; no." McCarthy asked "...on what theory can you say I was lying when you now tell us you do not know who the men were; you do not know who fired them; you do not even know how they were forced out of the department?"
> 
> Yes, Snow accused McCarthy of lying, but when asked for specifics, it turned out that he didn't know what he was talking about: He didn't know that a congressional investigation had found one of his charges to be false; he didn't know about the depositions showing another to be false; and he didn't even know that Bannerman and Panuch had been ousted, much less who was or was not responsible.
> 
> Not only did Snow fail to show that McCarthy *knew what he was saying was false*, he failed even to show that it was *wrong*. Moreover, even if McCarthy had been wrong in any of these statements, Snow had zero evidence to back up his accusation that McCarthy *knew what he was saying was wrong*. Since Snow's allegations against McCarthy *actually were* false, should we jump to the conclusion that Snow was lying? Since he assumed without evidence that McCarthy was guilty, should we apply the same standard to Snow? I don't know whether Snow *knew* what he was saying was false, or if he really was as clueless as he appeared to be. When he repeated these false allegations to McKinzie 20 years later, I don't know whether Snow *remembered* that what he was saying was false, or if his memory was playing tricks on him. So I'll give him the benefit of the doubt he denied to McCarthy.
> 
> Nevertheless, if Snow was telling the truth, then he didn't bother to check the facts before going off half-cocked to make wild, unfounded, and false allegations of serious wrongdoing, with reckless disregard for the character of his target.
> 
> That's pretty much a textbook definition of McCarthyism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Snow never made any false allegations.
Click to expand...


Asked for examples of lies he alleged McCarthy had told. Snow responded: "the accusation is that the State Department had 205, or whatever number he chose to call it, known Communists.... He made the same statement over and over again."

I actually read the post you were responding to.  Why don't YOU try it?


----------



## JakeStarkey

The righties continue to lie.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

JakeStarkey said:


> The righties continue to lie.



By "lie" you mean quoting testimony made by Gen Snow to Congress? Right?


----------



## mdn2000

Gadawg73 said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> The far right's evidence has been discounted time and time again, and the far right here won't evaluate the counter evidence, so all they can do now is attack personality
> 
> When the far right begins strawman argumentation, they admit they have lost the discussion.
> 
> Guys, why won't you answer though I have posted this at least ten times, "Why was it JM's own party members who pulled him down?"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My evidence has yet to be addressed, Oppenhiemer.
> 
> I can see how you can read my post as insulting, in hindsight it reads that way, the Dumb Country Boy remark is another user I did not wish to identify personally, the user will recognize this description of himself for its a quote of his own he made in reference of himself.
> 
> If you notice I do not randomly join a debate with you, that is because I do not know enough of the many subjects you participate in. I have not studied Mccarthy, I know a bit, I hear a bit, and I trust what I hear because of the people who state it. I have yet to find anything that counters the facts I gather from my sources.
> 
> I cannot address your point without a huge internet search, my typical way of addressing subjects that interest me is to buy dozens of books and read them. Dozens of used books that seem relevant, books by people who lived in the times and books by historians.
> 
> If the arguement is that Mccarthy was grasping at straws and there was not a threat then that is easily proven as bullshit. I do not need to address Mccarthy at all to show the historical facts. The facts stand on thier own.
> 
> If your arguement is that Mccarthy was a drunk, great, big deal.
> 
> Oppenhiemer factually consorted with known Communists.
> 
> When I use the term Communist and as the term is used historically its not used in reference to an ideology, that is Marxism. Communism is the specific to the USSR, to state people knowingly associated with Communists states said person was associating with a person who affiliated with the Communism, or Communist working with the USSR.
> 
> This is not a matter that Mccarthy thought Liberal Ideology was Marxist, Mccarthy did not attack Ideology, Mccarthy went after people known to be working or connected or contacting Communist working directly with Communist as in Communism is specific to Russia.
> 
> Is that clear, the fight was not against ideology, it was a fight against Communist connected to or working with the USSR against the USA from within our corporations to our government.
> 
> I think the left must make this discussion about Mccarthy because the facts are to ugly, the facts stand on thier own, facts and investigations conducted by Truman and his administration, concerns identified by the Roosevelt administration, facts that are established long before Mccarthy.
> 
> Oppenhiemer, so simple, impossible to refute, to discuss Oppenhiemer the truth is painfully clear. Those who attack Mccarthy either knowingly or unwittingly are diverting the attention away from the facts.
> 
> Communist were actively spying and stealing and working from within our government.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Go ahead and call me a "dumb country boy". Doesn't matter to me.
> Sticks and stones.
> That is all you have. I addressed Oppenheimer. He was the head of The Manhattan Project and won the war for us in the Pacific.
> Is it against the law to be a communist?
> Facts are a real bitch for you, aren't they?
> Talk is cheap. I used to let my pads do the talking.
> Name callers are weak.
Click to expand...


Name callers are weak, thats right, that makes you the weakest, you called me a name before I called you a name, you put words in my mouth I never said as well. So yes name callers are weak and when combined with a hypocrite you get a pure dumb ass. 

You called yourself a dumb country boy, twice, correct. You get from me what you give, thats all, you think its weak, not as weak as you, your a lousy hypocrite and a troll as far as I am concerned. Further you behave as an authoritarian thug.

Further and to the point, I did not read your last post if you responded to mine, I have so little regard for what you post I ignored it. 

You addressed Oppenheimer, I will not go back and see what you read, if you beleive that Oppenheimer was in charge of the Manhatten project you are completely ignorant of the facts. 

Ever here of a Colonel Richard Groves.

Gaawg, you do not even know who was in charge of the Manhatten project, you cannot even double check your so oblivious to your ignorance. 

Oppenheimer did not win the war for us, he was one man. 

So in response you ask is it against the law to be Communist, what in the hell does that got to do with 1945 or the years that followed.

Further are stating Oppenheimer was a Communist, because I never stated that, not once. 

Was he, maybe if something came out in recent years but when they stripped Oppenheimer of his Security Clearance the trial specifically stated Oppenheimer was not a card carrying Communist. 

Gadag, you are very under-educated in regards of to this specific topic. 

You really put your foot in your mouth.


----------



## HUGGY

Frankie...I've struggled with the point of this thread.  It can't really be about McCarthy.  It must be about your fear of communism.  Didn't you get the memo?  Communism fails all on it's own.  Our newest and bestest enemy is Islam.  McCarthy's warnings were stupid.  He way over rated them.


----------



## mdn2000

Mark LaRochelle said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Name ONE thing that Oppenheimer did as a communist that inhibited the Manhattan Project, the development of the atomic bomb and the delivery of the atomic bomb.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As far as I know, Oppenheimer didn't do anything to inhibit the development of the atomic bomb. Everything I have read shows just the opposite, that he worked like the devil to get the thing up and working as soon as possible.
> 
> Gen. Leslie Groves, Oppenheimer's boss in the Manhattan Project, gave him very high marks for his indispensable role in bringing the atomic bomb into existence, although Groves did admit to some suspicion that Oppenheimer might have been involved in the establishment of rules that "tended to break down compartmentalization" of data at Los Alamos, making it exceedingly difficult to control the diffusion of secrets and prevent espionage. Groves blamed this "breakdown" for the fact that David Greenglass and Klaus Fuchs were able to commit atomic espionage while working under Oppenheimer's supervision. (We now know that these were not the only Soviet spies at Los Alamos: Theodore Hall, Boris Podolsky and Russell McNutt were even more successful -- not only in transmitting more damaging information than Fuchs and Greenglass, but in avoiding detection.)
> 
> Groves also expressed concern when some of the people Oppenheimer brought into the project became enmeshed in this conspiracy. For example, FBI surveillance caught Joe Weinberg, one of Oppenheimer's Berkeley grad students (who got into the project with Oppenheimer as a reference), covertly transferring information to NKVD agent "Steve Nelson" (Stephan Mesarosh); even after FBI surveillance caught another Oppenheimer protegé, Giovanni Lomanitz, covertly meeting with Mesarosh, Oppenheimer still fought to stop the Army from removing Lomanitz from the project. What concerned Groves most, however, was Oppenheimer's admitted lying and covering up for the secret Communist Haakon Chevalier, who tried (and failed) to recruit Oppenheimer into the conspiracy. Even after Oppenheimer named Chevalier, Groves said he "had the very definite impression that Dr. Oppenheimer wanted to protect his friends of long standing, possibly his brother" Frank, a Communist Party member Oppenheimer had brought into the project.
> 
> Groves said he knew that Oppenheimer represented a risk, but it was a calculated risk. Since the Nazi-Soviet pact had broken down, thought Groves, Oppenheimer's secret membership in the Communist Party might even be a positive in the war against the Axis. And who can argue with the results?
> 
> Oppenheimer's problems came afterward, during the Cold War. The calculus of risk involved in giving a Communist access to nuclear secrets when the adversary was the Nazis became very different once the adversary became the Soviets. Oppenheimer became obsessed with the idea that to prevent the destruction of the human race the U.S. had to turn its nuclear monopoly over to the UN or other international control. After he tried to persuade President Truman to do this, Truman became furious, telling Acheson, "I don't want to see that son-of-a-bitch in this office ever again."
> 
> When the Soviets broke the U.S. nuclear monopoly in 1949, the U.S. embarked on a crash program to develop the hydrogen bomb. Although he had been gung-ho in the development of the A-bomb, Oppenheimer took a different stance on the H-bomb. This development he did try mightily to inhibit. The Atomic Energy Commission asked Oppenheimer, chairman of the AEC's General Advisory Committee (GAC) on Science, what the GAC members thought of the H-bomb. One GAC member, Glen Seaborg, wrote to Oppenheimer, "I have been unable to come to the conclusion that we should not proceed with this crash program to develop an H-bomb. I would have to hear some good arguments before I could take on sufficient courage to recommend not going toward such a program."
> 
> Just as he had in the Chevalier incident, Oppenheimer lied, telling the AEC he found "a surprising unanimity [among GAC members]to me very surprisingthat the United States ought not to take the initiative... in an all out program for the development of thermonuclear weapons."
> 
> But what really persuaded the AEC that Oppenheimer had become an unacceptable risk were his 1953 meetings in Paris with Chevalier, whom Oppenheimer had admitted had tried to recruit him into atomic espionage for the Soviets. As a member of the GAC, Oppenheimer was required by law to report all such encounters; this he failed to do, fomenting suspicion that he was up to something covert.
> 
> I wouldn't call it "un-American" but, according to members of the underground Communist cell at Berkeley, during the Nazi-Soviet pact Oppenheimer was the author of a notorious pamphlet denouncing FDR as a "counter-revolutionary war-monger" for giving aid the the British, who were then fighting for their lives under the Nazi blitz.
Click to expand...


Nice post. 

I wish I was at home, I have a copy of the transcripts of the AEC trial at home in a book. Extremely incredible that this guy was allowed in the door at Los Alamos, but then again, who knows, its hard to grasp a point in history without living in those times and being intimately connected to the event. 

I like when they state Oppenheimer had, "alleged ties". The "alleged ties" are Oppenheimer's wife and brother in law. Card carrying members active in the Communist party of the USA, which back then, the Communist party of the USA was directly connected to the USSR. 

I am bad at remembering the details. Things like Communist political parties at the Oppenheimer home, contributions, meeting known Communist agents and always that eliminate of doubt, how did Stalin seem to know about the bomb. Its an incredible transcript to read. Oppenheimer is pretty lucky he did not go to jail. 

Some would say Oppenheimer got treated unfairly but that is how the game of war is played and that is where Oppenheimer played. 

So many books to read, from the contradictions in Eisenhower's books to Truman's Memoirs, Stimson's books, Hull, so many books, so little time.


----------



## JakeStarkey

mdn1200 is crying because he was called a name, yet he regularly does that to others.  So le'ts not do that.

mdn1200, why do all of you far righties not answer, "Why is that you all ignore and fail to respond to the fact that JM was pulled down by his own party?"


----------



## Mark LaRochelle

mdn2000 said:


> I have a copy of the transcripts of the AEC trial at home in a book.



It was actually just a hearing, not a trial. There was an administrative hearing by the Personnel Security Board, which ended with a recommendation that Oppenheimer's clearance not be renewed, and an appeal before the AEC itself, which ended with an affirmation of the PSB recommendation.



mdn2000 said:


> I like when they state Oppenheimer had, "alleged ties". The "alleged ties" are Oppenheimer's wife and brother in law. Card carrying members active in the Communist party of the USA, which back then, the Communist party of the USA was directly connected to the USSR.



I don't know about his brother-in-law, but Oppenheimer's brother Frank eventually confessed (after years of lying about it) to having been a Communist. Whether Frank (or Robert) was ever issued a party card I don't know. Chevalier and Griffiths said the Berkeley cell was part of the "professional section," therefore a "closed" (secret) unit, meaning that the members were ordered not to join the above-ground CPUSA. On the other hand, Folkoff told Kheifeitz that both Robert and Frank "were associated with" the CP; meanwhile FBI surveillance recorded that CP officers Jack Manley and &#8220;Katherine Sanders&#8221; (Katrina Sandow) &#8220;stated that Oppenheimer was a Communist Party member." 

However, further surveillance reported that Nelson (Mesarosh) told Alameda County CP Secretary Bernadette Doyle that the organizer of the county's professional section, Hannah Peters (wife of Oppenheimer's student Bernard Peters, whom Oppenheimer had gotten into the Manhattan Project), instructed him that Oppenheimer, "because of his employment in a special project, could not be active in the party." To this Doyle responded that &#8220;the matter should be taken up with the state committee regarding the two OPPIES, inasmuch as they were regularly registered and everyone in the county knew they were Communists." She also told veteran Comintern agent John Murra &#8220;that OPPENHEIMER was a party member but that his name should be removed from any mailing lists in John Murra&#8217;s possession and he should not mention it in any way.&#8221;

The reason for all this sudden secrecy was that, after the Mironov affair, Merkulov ordered  all "leaders and activists" of the above-ground CPUSA to "sever contacts" with "scientists and specialists engaged in work on uranium," reporting to Beria that Robert was an "unlisted member" of the "apparatus" (the "illegal" arm of the CPUSA). Ovakimian and Graur in turn reported to Merkulov that the CPUSA "received orders from its center to break off relations" with Robert (whom they identified as a "secret member" of the CPUSA) "to avoid his exposure." Referring to both Robert and Frank, Kheifetz confirmed that "due to their special military work, the connection with them was suspended."

Once the Manhattan Project crew severed ties with the CPUSA, the Soviets took over, switching their handling from the "apparatus" to direct control, via "Zubilin" (Zarubin), "Yakovlev" (Yatskov), Ivanov, etc.


----------



## mdn2000

JakeStarkey said:


> mdn1200 is crying because he was called a name, yet he regularly does that to others.  So le'ts not do that.
> 
> mdn1200, why do all of you far righties not answer, "Why is that you all ignore and fail to respond to the fact that JM was pulled down by his own party?"



Jake, can you honestly say I regularly call you names, you cannot. I did infer you were or are a Marxist based on some of your posts in one thread but outside that thread can you state that I consistently call you names, how about in this thread, can you quote me calling you a name. I Challenge you to find one post where I called you a name in my last 500 posts. 

By all means I admit I call people names, but only in retaliation for insults and name calling by said person, so when I dish it back as best I can we get you crying about it. You are actually whining like an incoherent senile old man. Show the insults where I am not insulted first. They do not exist. Further if you examine all my posts you will find less than one percent are spam and insults, much I post is based on my experience in life and my knowledge of the subjects I choose to respond to.

Jake, that is not an insult to shorten your name to Jake is it, let me know and I will gladly not shorten your user name.

Anyhow Jake, I already spoke of JM, I did not ignore your question in the least bit, I specifically stated I have not and do not have the education to address JM. Yes, google is right here for me to use, sorry, but my knowledge is not a google result. I stated that, I specifically told you I have not the knowledge to address JM. 

So your response is to state all I do is resort to name calling and ignoring.

I did not ignore this, I will quote my quote just to make that clear. I have not called you a name in a long time, and when I did, it was after I had a full blast of your quick wit at the keyboard. 

I hope your not defending the pathetic and just saw this as an oppurtunity to attack me, I can respect a man that attacks me with intelligence and wit, what I find offensive is those who when frustrated decide they must make up a complete lie about another. 

Yes, I stated I saw Marxism in your post in the past, was I wrong, maybe, at the time I simply stated how I interpetted what you posted along with all the other posts of the thread at that time. Too long ago to address here but I see that since that time you have had a beef with me and see this as you not letting go, which is great, but lets not be shallow and pretend your beef is anything else.


----------



## mdn2000

Mark LaRochelle said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a copy of the transcripts of the AEC trial at home in a book.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was actually just a hearing, not a trial. There was an administrative hearing by the Personnel Security Board, which ended with a recommendation that Oppenheimer's clearance not be renewed, and an appeal before the AEC itself, which ended with an affirmation of the PSB recommendation.
> 
> 
> 
> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I like when they state Oppenheimer had, "alleged ties". The "alleged ties" are Oppenheimer's wife and brother in law. Card carrying members active in the Communist party of the USA, which back then, the Communist party of the USA was directly connected to the USSR.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't know about his brother-in-law, but Oppenheimer's brother Frank eventually confessed (after years of lying about it) to having been a Communist. Whether Frank (or Robert) was ever issued a party card I don't know. Chevalier and Griffiths said the Berkeley cell was part of the "professional section," therefore a "closed" (secret) unit, meaning that the members were ordered not to join the above-ground CPUSA. On the other hand, Folkoff told Kheifeitz that both Robert and Frank "were associated with" the CP; meanwhile FBI surveillance recorded that CP officers Jack Manley and Katherine Sanders (Katrina Sandow) stated that Oppenheimer was a Communist Party member."
> 
> However, further surveillance reported that Nelson (Mesarosh) told Alameda County CP Secretary Bernadette Doyle that Hannah Peters (wife of Oppenheimer's student Bernard Peters, whom Oppenheimer had gotten into the Manhattan Project), organizer of the county professional section, instructed him that Oppenheimer, "because of his employment in a special project, could not be active in the party." To this Doyle responded that the matter should be taken up with the state committee regarding the two OPPIES, inasmuch as they were regularly registered and everyone in the county knew they were Communists." She also told veteran Comintern agent John Murra that OPPENHEIMER was a party member but that his name should be removed from any mailing lists in John Murras possession and he should not mention it in any way.
> 
> The reason for all this sudden secrecy was that, after the Mironov affair, Merkulov ordered  all "leaders and activists" of the above-ground CPUSA to "sever contacts" with "scientists and specialists engaged in work on uranium," reporting to Beria that Robert was an "unlisted member" of the "apparatus" (the "illegal" arm of the CPUSA). Ovakimian and Graur in turn reported to Merkulov that the CPUSA "received orders from its center to break off relations" with Robert "to avoid his exposure." Referring to both Robert and Frank, Kheifetz confirmed that "due to their special military work, the connection with them was suspended."
> 
> Once the Manhattan Project crew severed ties with the CPUSA, the Soviets took over, switching their handling from the "apparatus" to direct control, via "Zubilin" (Zarubin), Yakovlev, Ivanov, etc.
Click to expand...


Nice post, a hearing, I am not that familiar with the difference between a hearing and a trial, it seems the same to me but I guess technically its not. Anyhow I rely on books and would of referenced my book but I am 6,000 miles away for another month. I could be wrong on the Brother-in-law, my memory suffers from a High School Education that was less than traditional.


----------



## Gadawg73

mdn2000 said:


> Mark LaRochelle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Name ONE thing that Oppenheimer did as a communist that inhibited the Manhattan Project, the development of the atomic bomb and the delivery of the atomic bomb.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As far as I know, Oppenheimer didn't do anything to inhibit the development of the atomic bomb. Everything I have read shows just the opposite, that he worked like the devil to get the thing up and working as soon as possible.
> 
> Gen. Leslie Groves, Oppenheimer's boss in the Manhattan Project, gave him very high marks for his indispensable role in bringing the atomic bomb into existence, although Groves did admit to some suspicion that Oppenheimer might have been involved in the establishment of rules that "tended to break down compartmentalization" of data at Los Alamos, making it exceedingly difficult to control the diffusion of secrets and prevent espionage. Groves blamed this "breakdown" for the fact that David Greenglass and Klaus Fuchs were able to commit atomic espionage while working under Oppenheimer's supervision. (We now know that these were not the only Soviet spies at Los Alamos: Theodore Hall, Boris Podolsky and Russell McNutt were even more successful -- not only in transmitting more damaging information than Fuchs and Greenglass, but in avoiding detection.)
> 
> Groves also expressed concern when some of the people Oppenheimer brought into the project became enmeshed in this conspiracy. For example, FBI surveillance caught Joe Weinberg, one of Oppenheimer's Berkeley grad students (who got into the project with Oppenheimer as a reference), covertly transferring information to NKVD agent "Steve Nelson" (Stephan Mesarosh); even after FBI surveillance caught another Oppenheimer protegé, Giovanni Lomanitz, covertly meeting with Mesarosh, Oppenheimer still fought to stop the Army from removing Lomanitz from the project. What concerned Groves most, however, was Oppenheimer's admitted lying and covering up for the secret Communist Haakon Chevalier, who tried (and failed) to recruit Oppenheimer into the conspiracy. Even after Oppenheimer named Chevalier, Groves said he "had the very definite impression that Dr. Oppenheimer wanted to protect his friends of long standing, possibly his brother" Frank, a Communist Party member Oppenheimer had brought into the project.
> 
> Groves said he knew that Oppenheimer represented a risk, but it was a calculated risk. Since the Nazi-Soviet pact had broken down, thought Groves, Oppenheimer's secret membership in the Communist Party might even be a positive in the war against the Axis. And who can argue with the results?
> 
> Oppenheimer's problems came afterward, during the Cold War. The calculus of risk involved in giving a Communist access to nuclear secrets when the adversary was the Nazis became very different once the adversary became the Soviets. Oppenheimer became obsessed with the idea that to prevent the destruction of the human race the U.S. had to turn its nuclear monopoly over to the UN or other international control. After he tried to persuade President Truman to do this, Truman became furious, telling Acheson, "I don't want to see that son-of-a-bitch in this office ever again."
> 
> When the Soviets broke the U.S. nuclear monopoly in 1949, the U.S. embarked on a crash program to develop the hydrogen bomb. Although he had been gung-ho in the development of the A-bomb, Oppenheimer took a different stance on the H-bomb. This development he did try mightily to inhibit. The Atomic Energy Commission asked Oppenheimer, chairman of the AEC's General Advisory Committee (GAC) on Science, what the GAC members thought of the H-bomb. One GAC member, Glen Seaborg, wrote to Oppenheimer, "I have been unable to come to the conclusion that we should not proceed with this crash program to develop an H-bomb. I would have to hear some good arguments before I could take on sufficient courage to recommend not going toward such a program."
> 
> Just as he had in the Chevalier incident, Oppenheimer lied, telling the AEC he found "a surprising unanimity [among GAC members]to me very surprisingthat the United States ought not to take the initiative... in an all out program for the development of thermonuclear weapons."
> 
> But what really persuaded the AEC that Oppenheimer had become an unacceptable risk were his 1953 meetings in Paris with Chevalier, whom Oppenheimer had admitted had tried to recruit him into atomic espionage for the Soviets. As a member of the GAC, Oppenheimer was required by law to report all such encounters; this he failed to do, fomenting suspicion that he was up to something covert.
> 
> I wouldn't call it "un-American" but, according to members of the underground Communist cell at Berkeley, during the Nazi-Soviet pact Oppenheimer was the author of a notorious pamphlet denouncing FDR as a "counter-revolutionary war-monger" for giving aid the the British, who were then fighting for their lives under the Nazi blitz.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nice post.
> 
> I wish I was at home, I have a copy of the transcripts of the AEC trial at home in a book. Extremely incredible that this guy was allowed in the door at Los Alamos, but then again, who knows, its hard to grasp a point in history without living in those times and being intimately connected to the event.
> 
> I like when they state Oppenheimer had, "alleged ties". The "alleged ties" are Oppenheimer's wife and brother in law. Card carrying members active in the Communist party of the USA, which back then, the Communist party of the USA was directly connected to the USSR.
> 
> I am bad at remembering the details. Things like Communist political parties at the Oppenheimer home, contributions, meeting known Communist agents and always that eliminate of doubt, how did Stalin seem to know about the bomb. Its an incredible transcript to read. Oppenheimer is pretty lucky he did not go to jail.
> 
> Some would say Oppenheimer got treated unfairly but that is how the game of war is played and that is where Oppenheimer played.
> 
> So many books to read, from the contradictions in Eisenhower's books to Truman's Memoirs, Stimson's books, Hull, so many books, so little time.
Click to expand...


And the USSR were our allies in the 40s.
We never trusted them and in fact the American communist party didn't trust them much either. Russia was about as far away from true communism as one can get.
Not that I advocate communism.
I would rather have had Oppenheimer than lose hundreds of thousands of America's finest in Japan. 
Real easy for you to Monday morning QB Ike and the US military THAT WON THE FUCKING WAR.


----------



## mdn2000

mdn2000 said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I find Jakes posts to be of more substance than a dumb country boy's.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The far right's evidence has been discounted time and time again, and the far right here won't evaluate the counter evidence, so all they can do now is attack personality
> 
> When the far right begins strawman argumentation, they admit they have lost the discussion.
> 
> Guys, why won't you answer though I have posted this at least ten times, "Why was it JM's own party members who pulled him down?"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My evidence has yet to be addressed, Oppenhiemer.
> 
> I can see how you can read my post as insulting, in hindsight it reads that way, the Dumb Country Boy remark is another user I did not wish to identify personally, the user will recognize this description of himself for its a quote of his own he made in reference of himself.
> 
> If you notice I do not randomly join a debate with you, that is because I do not know enough of the many subjects you participate in. I have not studied Mccarthy, I know a bit, I hear a bit, and I trust what I hear because of the people who state it. I have yet to find anything that counters the facts I gather from my sources.
> 
> I cannot address your point without a huge internet search, my typical way of addressing subjects that interest me is to buy dozens of books and read them. Dozens of used books that seem relevant, books by people who lived in the times and books by historians.
> 
> If the arguement is that Mccarthy was grasping at straws and there was not a threat then that is easily proven as bullshit. I do not need to address Mccarthy at all to show the historical facts. The facts stand on thier own.
> 
> If your arguement is that Mccarthy was a drunk, great, big deal.
> 
> Oppenhiemer factually consorted with known Communists.
> 
> When I use the term Communist and as the term is used historically its not used in reference to an ideology, that is Marxism. Communism is the specific to the USSR, to state people knowingly associated with Communists states said person was associating with a person who affiliated with the Communism, or Communist working with the USSR.
> 
> This is not a matter that Mccarthy thought Liberal Ideology was Marxist, Mccarthy did not attack Ideology, Mccarthy went after people known to be working or connected or contacting Communist working directly with Communist as in Communism is specific to Russia.
> 
> Is that clear, the fight was not against ideology, it was a fight against Communist connected to or working with the USSR against the USA from within our corporations to our government.
> 
> I think the left must make this discussion about Mccarthy because the facts are to ugly, the facts stand on thier own, facts and investigations conducted by Truman and his administration, concerns identified by the Roosevelt administration, facts that are established long before Mccarthy.
> 
> Oppenhiemer, so simple, impossible to refute, to discuss Oppenhiemer the truth is painfully clear. Those who attack Mccarthy either knowingly or unwittingly are diverting the attention away from the facts.
> 
> Communist were actively spying and stealing and working from within our government.
Click to expand...


You may of missed this post jake or maybe you were not addressing me when you state far rightees are ignoring your point. I cannot address something I have no knowledge of and am too busy to add another subject or point to my research. I can google a simple answer but that is not how I learn things. 

I rely on books, books I buy, old books and new books, typically old used books. 

Sorry, I just do not randomly post my opinion, I post fact that I back up with multiple sources. 

Anyhow, good luck Jake, you deserve an answer, if I had the time I would find it for you. 

When I get home I will take a look through my books.


----------



## Mark LaRochelle

mdn2000 said:


> I am not that familiar with the difference between a hearing and a trial



In the U.S., a trial is always before a judge; a hearing may be before a judge, an administrator or a panel, such as the AEC's Personnel Security Board.


----------



## Mark LaRochelle

Gadawg73 said:


> And the USSR were our allies in the 40s.



Well, part of the '40s. Stalin spent the first part of the 1940s in the Nazi-Soviet pact, clinking vodka glasses with Von Ribbentrop, carving up Eastern Europe with Hitler, slaughtering Finns, Balts, Poles and Balkans, and handing over Jews to the Gestapo. When the pact collapsed, Stalin rushed into the arms of the European Allies, although he didn't join the Pacific Allies until the day the U.S. dropped the second A-bomb on Japan. Both alliances were over before that week was out, with the Japanese surrender. Stalin spent the remainder of the '40s gobbling up Eastern Europe and denouncing his former allies as reactionary, counter-revolutionary war-mongers, etc.



Gadawg73 said:


> We never trusted them and in fact the American communist party didn't trust them much either.



I didn't know that the CPUSA didn't trust Moscow. What's your source for that?

Whether the CPUSA trusted the Soviets or not, it slavishly obeyed them. When Stalin said war is a capitalist racket, the CPUSA was pacifist; when he said we must fight the fascists in Spain, the CPUSA became pro-war; when, during the Nazi-Soviet pact, he denounced the Allies for fighting the fascists, the CPUSA again became pacifist; when that pact collapsed, the CPUSA again became pro-war. When Stalin ordered the CPUSA to dump Earl Browder and install William Z. Foster, the CPUSA did; and when he told the CPUSA to dissolve itself and reconstitute itself as the "Communist Political Association," it did that, too.



Gadawg73 said:


> Russia was about as far away from true communism as one can get.
> Not that I advocate communism.



That's the first time I can remember ever seeing anyone who didn't advocate communism make that claim: Emma Goldman wrote something similar, but she advocated communism; after he lost his bid to succeed Lenin as dictator, Trotsky said something similar, but he advocated communism; when I was in school various professors taught something similar, but they were always advocating the "true communism" of China, or Cuba, or Cambodia...

I used to enjoy the fights between Trotskyites, orthodox Communists, syndicalists and anarchists over just what was "true communism"; it was like watching the Thirty Years War over the "one true religion," as reenacted by children playing soldier. But it always struck me as presumptuous for those people to proclaim, from the comfort and safety of capitalism, that they knew what "true communism" was better than those Communists who made heroic sacrifices, and gave their lives in huge numbers, to show the world just exactly what real, existing communism always is, and must always be.


----------



## JakeStarkey

mdn2000 said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> mdn1200 is crying because he was called a name, yet he regularly does that to others.  So le'ts not do that.
> 
> mdn1200, why do all of you far righties not answer, "Why is that you all ignore and fail to respond to the fact that JM was pulled down by his own party?"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> <snip> [  /QUOTE]
> 
> Don't cry about what you do.  I have generally tried to treat others how they treat me.  Don't call me names, I won't do the same to you.
> 
> But it is false to call me a marxist, socialist, or a commie, etc.  Anyone can do it, but realize that no one ever has presented any categorical  evidence that I believe in any of that.  I do know the terms.  I do know American history and political science.  I fully understand governmental systems.  I do know that Obama by no stretch of the imagination is any more a socialist than Bush or McCain or the Pauls; he is, however, a Democrat who believes in social democracy.  I know that social democracy within the capitalistic system is not socialism.  Anyone who argues differently either is malignantly motivated, mentally feeble, or simply uneducated about it.
> 
> I do know that folks here on the far right poison the Republican Party with false definitions of terms and incredible revisionism of history.  Joe McCarthy, wrapped in the flag and pretending to be a patriot, struck at American democracy with his rantings and chantings.  The devil knows that a good seduction incorporates some truth in the lie.  Yes, some commies were in our government.  This was nothing new.  How JM went about his denunciation poisoned the freedoms on which America rests.
> 
> And no one yet on the far right has explained, or even admitted for that matter, that JM was pulled down by his own party members.
Click to expand...


----------



## mdn2000

JakeStarkey said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> mdn1200 is crying because he was called a name, yet he regularly does that to others.  So le'ts not do that.
> 
> mdn1200, why do all of you far righties not answer, "Why is that you all ignore and fail to respond to the fact that JM was pulled down by his own party?"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> <snip> [  /QUOTE]
> 
> Don't cry about what you do.  I have generally tried to treat others how they treat me.  Don't call me names, I won't do the same to you.
> 
> But it is false to call me a marxist, socialist, or a commie, etc.  Anyone can do it, but realize that no one ever has presented any categorical  evidence that I believe in any of that.  I do know the terms.  I do know American history and political science.  I fully understand governmental systems.  I do know that Obama by no stretch of the imagination is any more a socialist than Bush or McCain or the Pauls; he is, however, a Democrat who believes in social democracy.  I know that social democracy within the capitalistic system is not socialism.  Anyone who argues differently either is malignantly motivated, mentally feeble, or simply uneducated about it.
> 
> I do know that folks here on the far right poison the Republican Party with false definitions of terms and incredible revisionism of history.  Joe McCarthy, wrapped in the flag and pretending to be a patriot, struck at American democracy with his rantings and chantings.  The devil knows that a good seduction incorporates some truth in the lie.  Yes, some commies were in our government.  This was nothing new.  How JM went about his denunciation poisoned the freedoms on which America rests.
> 
> And no one yet on the far right has explained, or even admitted for that matter, that JM was pulled down by his own party members.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Gee, jake, I am sorry I am so weak in the face of all you present, yes, in the future I will try not to cry, I will call my emotions, as the Liberals demand, I will not name call, when you call me names, I will do nothing to offend you, and yes, I sit here crying, your so cruel to me I cannot take it. Yes all do is call you names, as in every quote of mine, that you respond to we all see the hate filled names I have been calling you. I must dry my tears, maybe a drink or two to call my nerves, i can hardly take you onslaught and yes I have been weak in the face of your stinging commentary, for that is what I call your posts, at best commentary and not fact.
> 
> Ah shit, what the fuck is all over my shoe, I must wipe my feet, for after reading Jakes post, I feel as though I have stepped in dog shit.
> 
> Damn.
Click to expand...


----------



## JakeStarkey

mdn2000 said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> <snip> [  /QUOTE]
> 
> Don't cry about what you do.  I have generally tried to treat others how they treat me.  Don't call me names, I won't do the same to you.
> 
> But it is false to call me a marxist, socialist, or a commie, etc.  Anyone can do it, but realize that no one ever has presented any categorical  evidence that I believe in any of that.  I do know the terms.  I do know American history and political science.  I fully understand governmental systems.  I do know that Obama by no stretch of the imagination is any more a socialist than Bush or McCain or the Pauls; he is, however, a Democrat who believes in social democracy.  I know that social democracy within the capitalistic system is not socialism.  Anyone who argues differently either is malignantly motivated, mentally feeble, or simply uneducated about it.
> 
> I do know that folks here on the far right poison the Republican Party with false definitions of terms and incredible revisionism of history.  Joe McCarthy, wrapped in the flag and pretending to be a patriot, struck at American democracy with his rantings and chantings.  The devil knows that a good seduction incorporates some truth in the lie.  Yes, some commies were in our government.  This was nothing new.  How JM went about his denunciation poisoned the freedoms on which America rests.
> 
> And no one yet on the far right has explained, or even admitted for that matter, that JM was pulled down by his own party members.
> 
> 
> 
> <snip>
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> mdn2000 continues to whine.  Uses the word 'liberal' as an excuse.  Well, I suppose that is better than 'marxist' or 'commie', but even 'liberal' is inaccurate.  Can't accept that not calling names is a two street.  Simply has trouble accepting that you have been criticized.  You can get over it.  Tough.
Click to expand...


----------



## mdn2000

JakeStarkey said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> <snip>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mdn2000 continues to whine.  Uses the word 'liberal' as an excuse.  Well, I suppose that is better than 'marxist' or 'commie', but even 'liberal' is inaccurate.  Can't accept that not calling names is a two street.  Simply has trouble accepting that you have been criticized.  You can get over it.  Tough.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You really do not understand a thing do you Jake, I guess you can characterize this as whining, beats the hell out of addressing the issue, you have any idea what this thead is about or what I posted.
> 
> Further proof that when the Liberal-Marxist loses the next tactic is to call the opponent names.
> 
> Obama is a Marxist, Hillary Clinton is a Marxist, Clinton's thesis was an argument in favor of Marxism but I can not provide a link as proof, you see when the Liberal-Marxist accuses the Conservatives of being secretive that is "projecting" that which they are guilty of they accuse "Their" enemies of. Remember, we are joined in a Far Right Wing Conspiracy.
> 
> Anyhow just saying there are an awful lot of Marxist in the leadership of the Liberal's, while the minions are in complete denial, for political advantage, the average American is against Marxism or Communism hence the need for complete denial.
> 
> Of course its possible some do not realize they are Marxist, I think, and I do not speak of the person who I quoted above, but I know that some just do not know because they do not have the education to know the ideals they foolishly follow are Marxist.
> 
> Obama's praise, worship, and the honor he gives the Marxist Chinese leader Hu is a perfect example. The Liberal does not see Obama paying respect to Marxism, or if they do they ignore it and characterize the honor given simply as being a good President, and in the same breath they will give an example how the evil Bush destroyed or image in the world.
> 
> You have heard the Red Neck jokes, "you may be a Red Neck if there are three cars in your yard but you cannot see them because of the weeds".
> 
> Well, you may be a Marxist if you have read or quoted Howard Zinn or Noam Chomsky.
Click to expand...


----------



## CrusaderFrank

HUGGY said:


> Frankie...I've struggled with the point of this thread.  It can't really be about McCarthy.  It must be about your fear of communism.  Didn't you get the memo?  Communism fails all on it's own.  Our newest and bestest enemy is Islam.  McCarthy's warnings were stupid.  He way over rated them.



Ignorance looks good on you, wear it in good health.


----------



## JakeStarkey

mdn2000 said:


> <snip>


  Dish it, get it.  That simple.  Let up, I will also.  I also will point out when you simply make assertions without credible evidence, or when you do not use traditional, historical definitions.  The reactionary revisionists of the far right are not going to change American history.


----------



## mdn2000

JakeStarkey said:


> mdn2000 said:
> 
> 
> 
> <snip>
> 
> 
> 
> Dish it, get it.  That simple.  Let up, I will also.  I also will point out when you simply make assertions without credible evidence, or when you do not use traditional, historical definitions.  The reactionary revisionists of the far right are not going to change American history.
Click to expand...


Desh it, get it, what are you talking about? I have yet to serve you a dish of anything, or do you mean your weak defence of your fellow traveler, you are very delusional.

You will point out when I make assertions, great, when you post the Marxist Ideology or complete bullshit I will point that out, what are you doing, giving me rules. 

Reactionary revisionist? What did I revise? 

Do you mean your failure to counter anything about Oppenheimer. Seems Jake is very ignornant of the subject of Marxist history or Jake wishes to engage in character assination instead of points made in a post.

Great, you have not addressed Oppenheimer and thus show you have not the knowledge to debate, you resorty to this little political tactic of evade, insult, and just lie about everything and anything.

Great strawman argument at best there Jake.


----------



## JakeStarkey

The silly defiance comes from you, mdn2000.  Dish it, get it.  End of story.


----------



## mdn2000

JakeStarkey said:


> The silly defiance comes from you, mdn2000.  Dish it, get it.  End of story.



Obviously not the end of the story, you just had to come to me crying and whining in my private message, who the fuck do you think you are, usmb police, bucking for a job, what?

I suggest if you cannot address Oppenheimer or any other little fact I post without crying and whining about something you, JakeStarkey makes up, stay of the messageboards. How many posts have we gone back and forth where you demand the last word with your irrelevant made up nonsense. 

Talk about a lousy loser, get a grip of yourself and for future reference, I will be ignoring your whining in private messages, I will not read them, just post that JakeStarkey had to whine and cry in private message.

Get some education so you do not have to resort to deflection.

Oppenheimer, get over it dumb ass.


----------



## mdn2000

And no sooner I post this JakeStarkey is back whining and crying in Private Messages, hey, I just stated I am ignoring your Private Messages, you wish to not argue with me about how pathetic you are, put me on your ignore list, or are my points of such devastating importance you just must resort to getting personal.


----------



## JakeStarkey

I am not arguing with you, mdn2000.  I am telling you to man up and be willing to get what you give.  No, you are not going on my ignore list.


----------



## Gadawg73

With all those communists in government how did we ever win the Cold War?
Was it McCarthy? Did he win the Cold War for us? 
Yea McCarthy!!!!


----------



## JakeStarkey

Yay, Tail Gunner Joe!!!!

Gadawag, I have asked repeatedly for the reactionary agenda-driven activists here like Frank and others to acknowledge and explain why the GOP pulled Joe and had him censured.  It must not be that they were commies, or Frank would have told us.  I wonder why Frank and others won't acknowledge and explain this.


----------



## Dante

JakeStarkey said:


> The righties continue to lie.






they think we do not know...


----------



## Dante

JakeStarkey said:


> Yay, Tail Gunner Joe!!!!
> 
> Gadawag, I have asked repeatedly for the reactionary agenda-driven activists here like Frank and others to acknowledge and explain why the GOP pulled Joe and had him censured.  It must not be that they were commies, or Frank would have told us.  I wonder why Frank and others won't acknowledge and explain this.



Poor Frank...

he's stuck in a time warp with the handful of socialists left in America.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Remember the most famous "have you no decency at last?" statement from Joseph Welch?  

You know it, it defined the ear of "McCarthyism".  That Evil Republican Ogre McCarthy brought low. Shamed!  Indecent!

The remark came in response to McCarthy asking Welch about trustworthiness and loyalty of Fred Fisher, an attorney working for Welch.  That was indecent! How dare he question the loyalty of one of Welch's lawyers?

Take a guess at who was a lawyer doing heavy lifting for the Communist Party while at the National Lawyers Guild before he worked for Welch at Hale & Dorr?  That's right!  Fred Fisher!  Comrade Fisher

The more you get educated, the more you see how indecent Progressives truly are


----------



## HUGGY

Christ Frankie!  As in many things the Communists were in fact taken too seriously.  There was never any threat that we would become communists here.  This was not in the 30's or 40's or 50's anything like Russia.  A Stalin type could never have taken over our country and forced his will on America.  Communism is a stupid idea on a scale as large as our country or Russia for that matter and it predictably failed.  

OK there were a handful of wackos that thought communism was a good idea and maybe even a tiny number had weaseled their way into the government.  So What?  There have always been crazy people in this country and guess what?.. there always will be a few.  It has never been illegal to be a communist.  It isn't illegal to be a Morman either and those people are scarier than some goofy commune types.

Your bid to get McCarthy on the granite in S Dakota is pure fail.  Get over it.


----------



## PoliticalChic

HUGGY said:


> Christ Frankie!  As in many things the Communists were in fact taken too seriously.  There was never any threat that we would become communists here.  This was not in the 30's or 40's or 50's anything like Russia.  A Stalin type could never have taken over our country and forced his will on America.  Communism is a stupid idea on a scale as large as our country or Russia for that matter and it predictably failed.
> 
> OK there were a handful of wackos that thought communism was a good idea and maybe even a tiny number had weaseled their way into the government.  So What?  There have always been crazy people in this country and guess what?.. there always will be a few.  It has never been illegal to be a communist.  It isn't illegal to be a Morman either and those people are scarier than some goofy commune types.
> 
> Your bid to get McCarthy on the granite in S Dakota is pure fail.  Get over it.



"...maybe even a tiny number had weaseled their way into the government. So What?"

Wow! I knew CF would get through to you!

Now take the next step....

...realize that the 'tiny number' persuaded FDR to trust Uncle Joe, and turn Eastern Europe over to the Soviets, and give us the Cold War!

...and the "tiny number" influenced Truman and Treasury to hold up loans to Chiang Kai Shek and essentially turn China over to Mao...and cost 60 million Chinese lives.


----------



## Gadawg73

PoliticalChic said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> Christ Frankie!  As in many things the Communists were in fact taken too seriously.  There was never any threat that we would become communists here.  This was not in the 30's or 40's or 50's anything like Russia.  A Stalin type could never have taken over our country and forced his will on America.  Communism is a stupid idea on a scale as large as our country or Russia for that matter and it predictably failed.
> 
> OK there were a handful of wackos that thought communism was a good idea and maybe even a tiny number had weaseled their way into the government.  So What?  There have always been crazy people in this country and guess what?.. there always will be a few.  It has never been illegal to be a communist.  It isn't illegal to be a Morman either and those people are scarier than some goofy commune types.
> 
> Your bid to get McCarthy on the granite in S Dakota is pure fail.  Get over it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "...maybe even a tiny number had weaseled their way into the government. So What?"
> 
> Wow! I knew CF would get through to you!
> 
> Now take the next step....
> 
> ...realize that the 'tiny number' persuaded FDR to trust Uncle Joe, and turn Eastern Europe over to the Soviets, and give us the Cold War!
> 
> ...and the "tiny number" influenced Truman and Treasury to hold up loans to Chiang Kai Shek and essentially turn China over to Mao...and cost 60 million Chinese lives.
Click to expand...


"turn Eastern Europe over to the Soviets"

By the fall of 1944 we were fighting on 2 fronts all over the world and Russia was our ally. They controlled almost all of eastern Europe at that time. 
Sure thing there Chic, we could have just waltzed into Russian occupied territiory, destroyed their 500 rifle and 50 tank divisions easily and marched into Moscow for Stoli martinis at noon.
Cake walk. 
They TOOK Eastern Europe. They already had it before we "gave it" to them. We could have told them no way and they still would have taken it.


----------



## HUGGY

PoliticalChic said:


> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> Christ Frankie!  As in many things the Communists were in fact taken too seriously.  There was never any threat that we would become communists here.  This was not in the 30's or 40's or 50's anything like Russia.  A Stalin type could never have taken over our country and forced his will on America.  Communism is a stupid idea on a scale as large as our country or Russia for that matter and it predictably failed.
> 
> OK there were a handful of wackos that thought communism was a good idea and maybe even a tiny number had weaseled their way into the government.  So What?  There have always been crazy people in this country and guess what?.. there always will be a few.  It has never been illegal to be a communist.  It isn't illegal to be a Morman either and those people are scarier than some goofy commune types.
> 
> Your bid to get McCarthy on the granite in S Dakota is pure fail.  Get over it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "...maybe even a tiny number had weaseled their way into the government. So What?"
> 
> Wow! I knew CF would get through to you!
> 
> Now take the next step....
> 
> ...realize that the 'tiny number' persuaded FDR to trust Uncle Joe, and turn Eastern Europe over to the Soviets, and give us the Cold War!
> 
> ...and the "tiny number" influenced Truman and Treasury to hold up loans to Chiang Kai Shek and essentially turn China over to Mao...and cost 60 million Chinese lives.
Click to expand...


What makes you think we ever trusted the communists?  It was clear when the Russians were starving and we tried to help them by sending them wheat by the trainload that the operators of the relief trains were stealing most of the grain and that the communists were a joke.  We never trusted Russia.  They were useful in defeating Hitler.  That is about all we needed from them.  They also lost over 10 million people in their part of WWII.  What some of you seen to be unaware of is how much they sacrificed.  They did a hell of a lot more to help defeat the Nazis than the British did.  

Now don't get me wrong...I'm not defending communism.  It is a stupid way to operate a country.  Same with China...  If China had not take drastic control over it's population...and I mean that in both senses...  there would be disease and starvation there today and for the last 40 years on an unimaginable scale.  Bellyaching about Taiwan and Mao is ridiculous compared with what the Chinese were faced with.  Now that they can see a glimmer of daylight from what was and could have been they are turning to capitalism.  BECAUSE THEY CAN.  You guys that like to revise history may be able to fool people that were not alive when much of this was going on may find dupes to impress...me... not so much.


----------



## PoliticalChic

HUGGY said:


> PoliticalChic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HUGGY said:
> 
> 
> 
> Christ Frankie!  As in many things the Communists were in fact taken too seriously.  There was never any threat that we would become communists here.  This was not in the 30's or 40's or 50's anything like Russia.  A Stalin type could never have taken over our country and forced his will on America.  Communism is a stupid idea on a scale as large as our country or Russia for that matter and it predictably failed.
> 
> OK there were a handful of wackos that thought communism was a good idea and maybe even a tiny number had weaseled their way into the government.  So What?  There have always been crazy people in this country and guess what?.. there always will be a few.  It has never been illegal to be a communist.  It isn't illegal to be a Morman either and those people are scarier than some goofy commune types.
> 
> Your bid to get McCarthy on the granite in S Dakota is pure fail.  Get over it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "...maybe even a tiny number had weaseled their way into the government. So What?"
> 
> Wow! I knew CF would get through to you!
> 
> Now take the next step....
> 
> ...realize that the 'tiny number' persuaded FDR to trust Uncle Joe, and turn Eastern Europe over to the Soviets, and give us the Cold War!
> 
> ...and the "tiny number" influenced Truman and Treasury to hold up loans to Chiang Kai Shek and essentially turn China over to Mao...and cost 60 million Chinese lives.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What makes you think we ever trusted the communists?  It was clear when the Russians were starving and we tried to help them by sending them wheat by the trainload that the operators of the relief trains were stealing most of the grain and that the communists were a joke.  We never trusted Russia.  They were useful in defeating Hitler.  That is about all we needed from them.  They also lost over 10 million people in their part of WWII.  What some of you seen to be unaware of is how much they sacrificed.  They did a hell of a lot more to help defeat the Nazis than the British did.
> 
> Now don't get me wrong...I'm not defending communism.  It is a stupid way to operate a country.  Same with China...  If China had not take drastic control over it's population...and I mean that in both senses...  there would be disease and starvation there today and for the last 40 years on an unimaginable scale.  Bellyaching about Taiwan and Mao is ridiculous compared with what the Chinese were faced with.  Now that they can see a glimmer of daylight from what was and could have been they are turning to capitalism.  BECAUSE THEY CAN.  You guys that like to revise history may be able to fool people that were not alive when much of this was going on may find dupes to impress...me... not so much.
Click to expand...


Huggy, Huggy, Huggy...

...not only did FDR and Truman trust them...although Truman learned the truth, but liberals defended them, denied that they were a threat, and after President Reagan ended the Evil Empire's reign, liberals continued to try to pretend that there was not a thing wrong with communism. In fact, *libs tried to make democracy and capitalism evil*!

1.	After the fall of communism, liberals who resisted every effort to produce that fall, immediately fabricated reconstituted memories of how they were all Cold Warriors. Along with hostility toward America, they expanded their field of battle to include hostility toward freedom itself, a sort of nostalgia for the deposed communism.

a.	Before the fall of the Berlin Wall, some journalists suggested *communism was truly popular among the people it enslaved,* said Noyes. After the liberation of Eastern Europe, many journalists argued that the move to *capitalism just made things worse,*.. Liberal Media

2.	ABCs Jerry King reported in October 1990, East Germany is staggering toward unification, and may get there close to dead on arrival, the victim of *an overdose of capitalism. *Liberal Media

3.	From Bert Quint, CBS Evening News, April 11, 1990:  Southeastern Poland, a place where the transition from communism to capitalism is making people more miserable every dayA month later, also from Quint:
a.	 Communism is being swept away, but so too is the *social safety net* it provided.Notable Quotables, Media Research Center, December 24, 1990

b.	 Connie Chung on CBS in 1991: In formerly communist Bulgaria, *the cost of freedom has been virtual economic disaster. * Best of Notable Quotables 1992 -- Media Research Center

c. Barbara Walters nearly dissolved into tears as she said sadly, In the old Soviet Union, you never saw faces like thesethe poor, the homeless and the desperation of the Russian winter. http://www.mmisi.org/ir/40_01/edwards.pdf 

 Had Ms. Walters never heard of the millions slowly starved and the millions executed?

d. Tamara Jones, writing in the Los Angeles Times, noted, "Ten months after the new Germany emerged, women in the eastern sector are coming to the stunning realization that, in many ways, *democracy has set them back 40 years*."

4. The commentators of the Left are very careful to couch bad news so that it reflects in the direction they intend. When NBCs John Chancellor reported about problems in Russia, this is how he did it: Its short of soap, so there are lice in hospitals. It's short of pantyhose, so women's legs go bare. It's short snowsuits, so babies stay home in winter. Sometimes it's short of cigarettes, so millions of people stop smoking involuntarily. It drives everybody crazy.* The problem isn't communism*. No one even talked about communism this week. The problem is shortages." NBC News, Aug. 21, 1991


Still sure about liberals and their feelings toward communism?
5.	Jimmy Carter began his presidency at Notre Dame with a speech that included We are now free of that *inordinate fear of Communism *which once led us to embrace any dictator who joined us in our fear.

6. Pols believed that the Communists were just 'good ol' boys'...just like us!	In 1978, Secretary of State Cyrus Vance told Time magazine that President Carter and General Secretary Leonid Brezhnev *shared similar dreams and aspirations* about the future of the world. Commentary magazine, Gershman, "The Rise and Fall of the New Foreign Policy Establishment," July, 1980.

7. American policy toward China, was based on the guidance of Communists:
"Over the next years, as the Communist Revolution came to power in China, the IPR was charged with Communist sympathies and even for* the loss of China*. Despite the heated rhetoric, however, the only charges actually brought were several perjury indictments against Lattimore...Among IPR staffers identified later as Communists or collaborators with Soviet intelligence agents were Kathleen Barnes, Hilda Austern, Elsie Fairfax-Cholmely, Chi Chao-ting, Guenter Stein, Harriet Levine, Talitha Gerlach, Chen Han-seng (a member of the Sorge spy ring)[9], Michael Greenberg (named as a source in 1945 by defecting Soviet courier Elizabeth Bentley), and T.A. Bisson (Venona's "Arthur")[10], as well as Kate Mitchell and Andrew Roth, both of whom were arrested in the 1945 Amerasia case.[11]

The IPR lost its tax-exempt status as an educational body in 1955, when the Internal Revenue Service alleged that the Institute had engaged in the dissemination of controversial and partisan propaganda, and had attempted to *influence the policies or opinions of the government."*Institute of Pacific Relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

8. On September 2, 1939, the day after the outbreak of war in Europe, Whittaker Chambers had told much of what he knew about Soviet espionage in the United States to Adolph Berle, Assistant Secretary of State and Presidents Roosevelts advisor on internal security. Immediately afterwards, Berle drew up a memorandum for the President which listed Alger Hiss, Harry Dexter White and the other leading for whom Chambers acted as courier. One was a leading presidential aide, Lauchlin Currie*.Roosevelt, however, was not interested. He seems to have dismissed the whole idea of espionage rings *within his administration as absurd. The Sword and the Shield: The Mitrokhin Archives, the History of the  KGB, by Christopher Andrew and Vasili Mitrokhin.p.107


Yeah, American pols trusted and listened to Communists.


----------



## HUGGY

PC, PC, PC, PC, PC, PC, PC, PC, PC, PC, PC, PC, PC, PC, PC, PC, PC, PC...!!!!!!

Reagan didn't defeat communism. That is one of the biggest and most outrageous lies you guys try to spread.  He just happened to be president when the USSR collapsed of it's own weight and incompetence.  They just purely couldn't afford themselves any more.  It would be like if the USA collapsed by saying we can't afford New York or California any more. 

You really need to back off of the kool aide ...someone has obviously pissed in your punchbowl.


----------



## PoliticalChic

HUGGY said:


> PC, PC, PC, PC, PC, PC, PC, PC, PC, PC, PC, PC, PC, PC, PC, PC, PC, PC...!!!!!!
> 
> Reagan didn't defeat communism. That is one of the biggest and most outrageous lies you guys try to spread.  He just happened to be president when the USSR collapsed of it's own weight and incompetence.  They just purely couldn't afford themselves any more.  It would be like if the USA collapsed by saying we can't afford New York or California any more.
> 
> You really need to back off of the kool aide ...someone has obviously pissed in your punchbowl.



The fact that you and the lib establishment have the above as your fall-back position bears witness to how very wrong you were, and how very right President Reagan was.

The Soviets were at their peak! Powerful, and scared the pants off you Leftists....

"The 1980s were a dangerous time for the world. *The Soviet Union stood at the peak of its military and political power, its nuclear forces ranged from pole to pole.* The globe stood at the brink of World War III, with a final countdown of 25 minutes from launch to total thermonuclear combat. 

The Soviet Union led the world with an extraordinary increase in nuclear and conventional arms. The Soviet Union had 4.9 million active soldiers, 42,000 tanks, 2,200 warships, 15,000 combat planes, 1,500 long-range nuclear-tipped missiles, 1,000 short-range nuclear missiles and 900 sub-based nuclear missiles. 

Soviet bombers equipped with nuclear weapons frequently flew off the U.S. coast. Soviet submarines armed with nuclear-tipped missiles prowled off both U.S. coastlines, within 100 miles of the most populated coastal American cities. 

*The liberal press called upon Reagan to remove the tactical nuclear arsenal from Europe.* Europeans fell easy prey to the false theory that a nuclear war between the Warsaw Pact and NATO in Europe would remain inside the continent. Freeze supporters here in the U.S. clamored that the strategic arsenal based inside America was more than enough to stop any attack in Germany."
The Legacy of Ronald Reagan  Peace


"SO ON WHOM or what do we bestow the title of the "evil empire's" killer? Was it Mikhail Gorbachev himself who pulled down what Lenin and Stalin had built up? It is tempting to finger Gorbachev, but this would ascribe too much wisdom and foresight to a man who wanted merely to reform, but not to relinquish, the empire. *At no point, however, did Gorbachev want to yield Moscow's pride of place as the number two superpower.* And he was blissfully confident that the risks were tolerable: "There is no reason to fear the collapse or the end of socialism", Gorbachev assured Romanian leader Nicolae Ceausescu three weeks after the Berlin Wall had been breached and three weeks before the Romanian dictator was executed by his own people.

Ronald Reagan, though dismissed by Europeans as a second-rate actor and fondler of cue cards, possessed that magic faculty that separates run-of-the mill politicos from history-molding leaders. *"I didn't understand", recalls Time's Joe Klein, "how truly monumental, and morally important, Reagan's anti-communism was until I visited the Soviet Union in 1987." He continues with a seemingly trivial vignette. Attending the Bolshoi Ballet, he was nudged by his minder: "'Ronald Reagan. Evil empire', he whispered with dramatic intensity and shot a glance toward his lap where he had hidden two enthusiastic thumbs up. 'Yes!'"*When an American president manages to pluck the soul strings of those who have been raised to fear and despise what he represents, he surely deserves the honorific 'great.'
The "amazing and mysterious" life of Ronald Reagan - page 6


Don't be afraid, Huggy....come over to the light!


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Huggy is correct, Reagan didn't defeat Communism. He just made their change their headquarters from Moscow to the DNC


----------



## HUGGY

You need to differentiate between reality and fantasy PC.  Ronnie was a hero in the movies and in his own imagination.  In reality...not so much.


----------



## Old Rocks

But PC does not recognize reality. Like most Conservatives, she lives in an alternative reality.


----------



## HUGGY

CrusaderFrank said:


> Huggy is correct, Reagan didn't defeat Communism. He just made their change their headquarters from Moscow to the DNC



So what are you suggesting Frankie?  That the majority of voters in the 2008 presidential election were communist sympathizers and traitors?  Americans are really Anti-American if they do not agree with you?  Even if they are in the majority and vote as such?  So really your problem isn't with Obama is it.?  It is with the American voter.  Obama would be nothing but a Senator without the consent of America.  Christ..that's just a pay grade above a McDonalds manager.  Oh but wait!  That's all McCarthy was also.    And a drunkard one at that.  Why don't you beat the rush and go chisel your heros mug on Mt. Rushmore..I'm sure the country will catch up to you eventually on this and you will be a hero just like Joe!  

PS...don't fall asleep any more on the job..  They are firing your asses for that these days.


----------



## ernie1241

CrusaderFrank said:


> Think of it, what was supposed to be the last copy of the Memo that was one of the primary motivators for McCarthy to ask about Communist infiltration of US State was *REMOVED FROM THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES IN MARCH 1993.* Let's just chew on that for a minute.



FYI -- I have had a copy of that 111-page Klaus memo since March 2006 so I have no idea why you think that there was only "one copy" of it archived anywhere.  My copy appears in FBI HQ file 121-23278 which is captioned "Alleged Communists in the State Department".

Anybody who suggests that primary source documents are missing or purged is simply not familiar with this subject matter.


----------



## Vandalshandle

ernie1241 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Think of it, what was supposed to be the last copy of the Memo that was one of the primary motivators for McCarthy to ask about Communist infiltration of US State was *REMOVED FROM THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES IN MARCH 1993.* Let's just chew on that for a minute.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FYI -- I have had a copy of that 111-page Klaus memo since March 2006 so I have no idea why you think that there was only "one copy" of it archived anywhere.  My copy appears in FBI HQ file 121-23278 which is captioned "Alleged Communists in the State Department".
> 
> Anybody who suggests that primary source documents are missing or purged is simply not familiar with this subject matter.
Click to expand...


Actually, a lot of McCarthy's documents really are missing, because they never existed. For example, the list of communists that he was waving around in one of his speeches that he claimed was the names of the communists in the State Departemnt was later revealed to be a laundry ticket.

McCarthy was about the only demogod that was as dangerous to this country as Nixon and Hughy Long were.


----------



## Toronado3800

Oh wow.  This conversation again with Ronald Reagan thrown in for good measure.

PC usually has something interesting to say.  

I will split it on McCarthy.  It seems he at least harassed folks who knew Communists or who were in China and thought the Commies were more organized than the....do we call em Capitalists? 

 We must add though that after the 1920's folks spent a decade wondering if Capitalism had issues now that the BIG government in Washington no longer had land to conquor and give away to broke men who could not stand small government capitalism in the big cities where there were no natives, or land for the railroads (hey, is the Union Pacific still selling their alternating plots?)

It would be interesting to see a circle full of folks who supported McCarthy and how many of them folks support the Big Government Patriot Act or that Gitmo permanent detention center.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

ernie1241 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Think of it, what was supposed to be the last copy of the Memo that was one of the primary motivators for McCarthy to ask about Communist infiltration of US State was *REMOVED FROM THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES IN MARCH 1993.* Let's just chew on that for a minute.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FYI -- I have had a copy of that 111-page Klaus memo since March 2006 so I have no idea why you think that there was only "one copy" of it archived anywhere.  My copy appears in FBI HQ file 121-23278 which is captioned "Alleged Communists in the State Department".
> 
> Anybody who suggests that primary source documents are missing or purged is simply not familiar with this subject matter.
Click to expand...


The document was removed from the National Archives.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Vandalshandle said:


> ernie1241 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Think of it, what was supposed to be the last copy of the Memo that was one of the primary motivators for McCarthy to ask about Communist infiltration of US State was *REMOVED FROM THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES IN MARCH 1993.* Let's just chew on that for a minute.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FYI -- I have had a copy of that 111-page Klaus memo since March 2006 so I have no idea why you think that there was only "one copy" of it archived anywhere.  My copy appears in FBI HQ file 121-23278 which is captioned "Alleged Communists in the State Department".
> 
> Anybody who suggests that primary source documents are missing or purged is simply not familiar with this subject matter.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Actually, a lot of McCarthy's documents really are missing, because they never existed. For example, the list of communists that he was waving around in one of his speeches that he claimed was the names of the communists in the State Departemnt was later revealed to be a laundry ticket.
> 
> McCarthy was about the only demogod that was as dangerous to this country as Nixon and Hughy Long were.
Click to expand...


He had a list that was likely provided by the FBI and apparently some of the people he later named were confirmed as genuine Communist spies by the USSR

If anything, McCarthy vastly understated the extent of the threat of Communist infiltration of the White House and subversion of US policy.

Think of it, Mao was able to become one of history biggest scumbags and mass murderers because Communist spies at State and the WH subverted US policy in Mao's favor.  Tens of  million murdered, a billion enslaved -- and McCarthy tried to warn us that agents of this vile, inhuman system were at work in out governemnt


----------



## CrusaderFrank

HUGGY said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Huggy is correct, Reagan didn't defeat Communism. He just made their change their headquarters from Moscow to the DNC
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So what are you suggesting Frankie?  That the majority of voters in the 2008 presidential election were communist sympathizers and traitors?  Americans are really Anti-American if they do not agree with you?  Even if they are in the majority and vote as such?  So really your problem isn't with Obama is it.?  It is with the American voter.  Obama would be nothing but a Senator without the consent of America.  Christ..that's just a pay grade above a McDonalds manager.  Oh but wait!  That's all McCarthy was also.    And a drunkard one at that.  Why don't you beat the rush and go chisel your heros mug on Mt. Rushmore..I'm sure the country will catch up to you eventually on this and you will be a hero just like Joe!
> 
> PS...don't fall asleep any more on the job..  They are firing your asses for that these days.
Click to expand...


They are sending the Internal Revenge Service after us, that's unAmerican, but definitely Marxist


----------



## Gadawg73

CrusaderFrank said:


> Vandalshandle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ernie1241 said:
> 
> 
> 
> FYI -- I have had a copy of that 111-page Klaus memo since March 2006 so I have no idea why you think that there was only "one copy" of it archived anywhere.  My copy appears in FBI HQ file 121-23278 which is captioned "Alleged Communists in the State Department".
> 
> Anybody who suggests that primary source documents are missing or purged is simply not familiar with this subject matter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, a lot of McCarthy's documents really are missing, because they never existed. For example, the list of communists that he was waving around in one of his speeches that he claimed was the names of the communists in the State Departemnt was later revealed to be a laundry ticket.
> 
> McCarthy was about the only demogod that was as dangerous to this country as Nixon and Hughy Long were.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> He had a list that was likely provided by the FBI and apparently some of the people he later named were confirmed as genuine Communist spies by the USSR
> 
> If anything, McCarthy vastly understated the extent of the threat of Communist infiltration of the White House and subversion of US policy.
> 
> Think of it, Mao was able to become one of history biggest scumbags and mass murderers because Communist spies at State and the WH subverted US policy in Mao's favor.  Tens of  million murdered, a billion enslaved -- and McCarthy tried to warn us that agents of this vile, inhuman system were at work in out governemnt
Click to expand...


The FBI labeled many a citizen fighting for civil rights as "communist sympathizers".
Why?
Because at civil rights marches labor and other groups would show up and march with the blacks.
Nothing else.
Most all of the poor souls called before the witch hunt McCarthy hearings had nothing to do with communism, ever.
Lena Horne a communist.
Respectfully, you good folks are looking very foolish defending McCarthy. 
You have no evidence. Nothing.


----------



## oldfart

Normally  I don't respond to PC's scattergun posts, mainly because I find them mostly incoherent.  This one is slightly better written than the average.  It contains a fundamental error of fact that derives from an uncritical cut-and-paste job from an intentionally deceptive right wing blog which PC fails to even identify the author!  



PoliticalChic said:


> "The Soviet Union led the world with an extraordinary increase in nuclear and conventional arms. The Soviet Union had 4.9 million active soldiers, 42,000 tanks, 2,200 warships, 15,000 combat planes, 1,500 long-range nuclear-tipped missiles, 1,000 short-range nuclear missiles and 900 sub-based nuclear missiles.



This listing of huge equipment numbers fails to note the peculiar practice of the Soviet military of never retiring equipment.  Planes, tanks, and other equipment are carried on the rolls even though they are not operational and sometimes no longer exist.  For example, the 15,000 combat planes include thousands that were parked and being used for parts.  Most of the 42,000 tanks were WWII vintage and used as static gun emplacements.  Rule of thumb is that 90% of this equipment was not available for front line use. 

Similarly most of the 4.9 million active soldiers were in poorly equipped units without sufficient training or transportation to be used in offensive operations.  Probably half were detailed for internal security.  The exception was the strategic rocket forces, for which the numbers given are fairly accurate and which were generally close to combat-ready.  The quality of these forces (especially in communications and control) were inferior to similar units in Western arsenals and were about equal to Western forces. 

The 2200 warships were clearly no match for the American navy.  There were no carrier task forces and only a very limited surface ship capability.  Most of the attack submarines were non-nuclear and the quality and number of boomers were inferior to the Western forces.  But the missile submarine capability constituted a real deterrent.  [/quote]



PoliticalChic said:


> Soviet bombers equipped with nuclear weapons frequently flew off the U.S. coast. Soviet submarines armed with nuclear-tipped missiles prowled off both U.S. coastlines, within 100 miles of the most populated coastal American cities.



And the United States overflew the Soviet Union and placed missiles far closer to Soviet borders than any Soviet missiles (except those involved in the Cuban crisis) were placed to American borders.  I'm not aware of any Soviet overflights or intentional incursions into American airspace, but the US Air Force did mount these provocations on a weekly basis for decades.  If your policy is to play nuclear chicken, you don't have much basis to complain about the other side keeping nuclear forces on a hair trigger, and we damn near had WWIII in the 80's because of a NATO exercise that similated a massive first strike launch.  The only thing that saved the world from total thermonuclear war was a Soviet officer who disobeyed standing orders and refrained from the prescribed launch.  In this instance, Reagan's rhetoric was a major factor in causing Soviet intelligence to believe that American doctrine had shifted to a first strike strategy, so when the NATO exercise began, Soviet commanders at the highest level and the Politbureau anticipated that it was a cover for a first strike.  In a very real sense Reagan might have been the direct cause of a thermonuclear war that would have killed 80% of the American population and reduced the world to an uninhabitable cinder.  That's leadership!


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Gadawg73 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vandalshandle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, a lot of McCarthy's documents really are missing, because they never existed. For example, the list of communists that he was waving around in one of his speeches that he claimed was the names of the communists in the State Departemnt was later revealed to be a laundry ticket.
> 
> McCarthy was about the only demogod that was as dangerous to this country as Nixon and Hughy Long were.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He had a list that was likely provided by the FBI and apparently some of the people he later named were confirmed as genuine Communist spies by the USSR
> 
> If anything, McCarthy vastly understated the extent of the threat of Communist infiltration of the White House and subversion of US policy.
> 
> Think of it, Mao was able to become one of history biggest scumbags and mass murderers because Communist spies at State and the WH subverted US policy in Mao's favor.  Tens of  million murdered, a billion enslaved -- and McCarthy tried to warn us that agents of this vile, inhuman system were at work in out governemnt
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The FBI labeled many a citizen fighting for civil rights as "communist sympathizers".
> Why?
> Because at civil rights marches labor and other groups would show up and march with the blacks.
> Nothing else.
> Most all of the poor souls called before the witch hunt McCarthy hearings had nothing to do with communism, ever.
> Lena Horne a communist.
> Respectfully, you good folks are looking very foolish defending McCarthy.
> You have no evidence. Nothing.
Click to expand...


Um, no. The FBI had guys like Alger Hiss, the Rosenbergs, Owen Lattimore and Lauchlin Currie and hundreds others who were genuine Communist spies

Are you at all familiar with the Verona Cables?

I mean have you even heard of it?


----------



## t_polkow

CrusaderFrank said:


> I'm only about 35 pages into M. Stanton Evans "Blacklisted by History" and I am livid at the utter gall and tremendous scope of the Leftist outright lies.
> 
> Did you know that many of the original documents that McCarthy based his campaign on are missing?
> 
> As recently as March 1993 someone, we don't know who
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> went into the US National Archives and took the Klaus Memo, a 1946 memo by a State Department official Samuel Klaus implicating Alger Hiss and many others as Communist spies?



Amazing frank that you claim you are Jewish and defend the anti Semite McCarty! Oh well there were capos in the camps who were self hating too.


----------



## Cecilie1200

t_polkow said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm only about 35 pages into M. Stanton Evans "Blacklisted by History" and I am livid at the utter gall and tremendous scope of the Leftist outright lies.
> 
> Did you know that many of the original documents that McCarthy based his campaign on are missing?
> 
> As recently as March 1993 someone, we don't know who
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> went into the US National Archives and took the Klaus Memo, a 1946 memo by a State Department official Samuel Klaus implicating Alger Hiss and many others as Communist spies?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amazing frank that you claim you are Jewish and defend the anti Semite McCarty! Oh well there were capos in the camps who were self hating too.
Click to expand...


Anti-Semite?


----------



## CrusaderFrank

t_polkow said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm only about 35 pages into M. Stanton Evans "Blacklisted by History" and I am livid at the utter gall and tremendous scope of the Leftist outright lies.
> 
> Did you know that many of the original documents that McCarthy based his campaign on are missing?
> 
> As recently as March 1993 someone, we don't know who
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> went into the US National Archives and took the Klaus Memo, a 1946 memo by a State Department official Samuel Klaus implicating Alger Hiss and many others as Communist spies?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amazing frank that you claim you are Jewish and defend the anti Semite McCarty! Oh well there were capos in the camps who were self hating too.
Click to expand...


I claim I'm Jewish?  Really?

McCarthy was anti-Communist, not an anti-Semite

I'm Jewish.  Wow, the things I learn by coming to USMB.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Oy vey is mer!

I have such tsurris!


----------



## Toronado3800

CrusaderFrank said:


> t_polkow said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm only about 35 pages into M. Stanton Evans "Blacklisted by History" and I am livid at the utter gall and tremendous scope of the Leftist outright lies.
> 
> Did you know that many of the original documents that McCarthy based his campaign on are missing?
> 
> As recently as March 1993 someone, we don't know who
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> went into the US National Archives and took the Klaus Memo, a 1946 memo by a State Department official Samuel Klaus implicating Alger Hiss and many others as Communist spies?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amazing frank that you claim you are Jewish and defend the anti Semite McCarty! Oh well there were capos in the camps who were self hating too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I claim I'm Jewish?  Really?
> 
> McCarthy was anti-Communist, not an anti-Semite
> 
> I'm Jewish.  Wow, the things I learn by coming to USMB.
Click to expand...


Frank, I do not believe you are Jewish.  But once after I was in a friend's wedding a fella at work noticed I had an Israeli fighter jet on my pc background screen and well I played along even bringing in the wrong color yamika I had to wear for the wedding.

Back to the subject at hand: Gary Powers....was he a Russian pilot spying on us or our pilot spying on them?   Lord they were a patient bunch not starting WWIII when they caught us overflying their airspace with what could have been nuclear bomb equipped planes.

Not that Stalin was not a monster.  Just sayin I do nit remember any Russian planes being caught overflying Ohio.


----------



## regent

ernie1241 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Think of it, what was supposed to be the last copy of the Memo that was one of the primary motivators for McCarthy to ask about Communist infiltration of US State was *REMOVED FROM THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES IN MARCH 1993.* Let's just chew on that for a minute.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FYI -- I have had a copy of that 111-page Klaus memo since March 2006 so I have no idea why you think that there was only "one copy" of it archived anywhere.  My copy appears in FBI HQ file 121-23278 which is captioned "Alleged Communists in the State Department".
> 
> Anybody who suggests that primary source documents are missing or purged is simply not familiar with this subject matter.
Click to expand...


The first evidence of McCarthy destroying judicial records was in 1941. It seems McCarthy had made some comments that later he didn't like, so he removed the page from the court records. The Wisconsin Supreme Court criticized McCarthy for destroying court records. Little did the Court know.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Toronado3800 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> t_polkow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amazing frank that you claim you are Jewish and defend the anti Semite McCarty! Oh well there were capos in the camps who were self hating too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I claim I'm Jewish?  Really?
> 
> McCarthy was anti-Communist, not an anti-Semite
> 
> I'm Jewish.  Wow, the things I learn by coming to USMB.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Frank, I do not believe you are Jewish.  But once after I was in a friend's wedding a fella at work noticed I had an Israeli fighter jet on my pc background screen and well I played along even bringing in the wrong color yamika I had to wear for the wedding.
> 
> Back to the subject at hand: Gary Powers....was he a Russian pilot spying on us or our pilot spying on them?   Lord they were a patient bunch not starting WWIII when they caught us overflying their airspace with what could have been nuclear bomb equipped planes.
> 
> Not that Stalin was not a monster.  Just sayin I do nit remember any Russian planes being caught overflying Ohio.
Click to expand...


My wife is Jewish and my sons were bar mitvah, I've been asked to consider converting by 2 separate rabbis and at my first real job they added "-owitz" to my very Italian last name.

Nothing else in your post is on topic that McCarthy tried to warn us that the Russians had a very robust and active spy network at US State and the White House, all of which has since been confirmed by the Soviets themselves


----------



## Cecilie1200

CrusaderFrank said:


> Oy vey is mer!
> 
> I have such tsurris!



Bubbeleh, it's a shanda, a shanda, I tell you!

Hey, I guess I must be Jewish, too.


----------



## Cecilie1200

regent said:


> ernie1241 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Think of it, what was supposed to be the last copy of the Memo that was one of the primary motivators for McCarthy to ask about Communist infiltration of US State was *REMOVED FROM THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES IN MARCH 1993.* Let's just chew on that for a minute.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FYI -- I have had a copy of that 111-page Klaus memo since March 2006 so I have no idea why you think that there was only "one copy" of it archived anywhere.  My copy appears in FBI HQ file 121-23278 which is captioned "Alleged Communists in the State Department".
> 
> Anybody who suggests that primary source documents are missing or purged is simply not familiar with this subject matter.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The first evidence of McCarthy destroying judicial records was in 1941. It seems McCarthy had made some comments that later he didn't like, so he removed the page from the court records. The Wisconsin Supreme Court criticized McCarthy for destroying court records. Little did the Court know.
Click to expand...


::studying this post in vain for a link proving this assertion::


----------



## dilloduck

Jews--Commies. Same thing back then. Check it out if that part of history hasn't been rewritten too.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones

Needless to say, that the OP and other conservatives would lionize the likes of Joe McCarthy comes as no surprise. The same is true with regard to their ignorance of American history, or their revisionist understanding of it.


----------



## Toronado3800

CrusaderFrank said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> I claim I'm Jewish?  Really?
> 
> McCarthy was anti-Communist, not an anti-Semite
> 
> I'm Jewish.  Wow, the things I learn by coming to USMB.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Frank, I do not believe you are Jewish.  But once after I was in a friend's wedding a fella at work noticed I had an Israeli fighter jet on my pc background screen and well I played along even bringing in the wrong color yamika I had to wear for the wedding.
> 
> Back to the subject at hand: Gary Powers....was he a Russian pilot spying on us or our pilot spying on them?   Lord they were a patient bunch not starting WWIII when they caught us overflying their airspace with what could have been nuclear bomb equipped planes.
> 
> Not that Stalin was not a monster.  Just sayin I do nit remember any Russian planes being caught overflying Ohio.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> My wife is Jewish and my sons were bar mitvah, I've been asked to consider converting by 2 separate rabbis and at my first real job they added "-owitz" to my very Italian last name.
> 
> Nothing else in your post is on topic that McCarthy tried to warn us that the Russians had a very robust and active spy network at US State and the White House, all of which has since been confirmed by the Soviets themselves
Click to expand...


Now I meant no offense.  Some of my "pro Israel" opinions probably helped along that rumor I was Jewish.

Also, I was already talking in reference to that post about missle locations.  No biggie.

Hey, what level of "accuracy" do we demand from McCarthy?  Do folks actually have to have been convicted of being a spy?  Just thinking the commies seemed better for China in '47?  

What did we decide...he was 100% right in finding folks who attended at least one communist party meeting?


----------



## dilloduck

Toronado3800 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Frank, I do not believe you are Jewish.  But once after I was in a friend's wedding a fella at work noticed I had an Israeli fighter jet on my pc background screen and well I played along even bringing in the wrong color yamika I had to wear for the wedding.
> 
> Back to the subject at hand: Gary Powers....was he a Russian pilot spying on us or our pilot spying on them?   Lord they were a patient bunch not starting WWIII when they caught us overflying their airspace with what could have been nuclear bomb equipped planes.
> 
> Not that Stalin was not a monster.  Just sayin I do nit remember any Russian planes being caught overflying Ohio.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My wife is Jewish and my sons were bar mitvah, I've been asked to consider converting by 2 separate rabbis and at my first real job they added "-owitz" to my very Italian last name.
> 
> Nothing else in your post is on topic that McCarthy tried to warn us that the Russians had a very robust and active spy network at US State and the White House, all of which has since been confirmed by the Soviets themselves
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Now I meant no offense.  Some of my "pro Israel" opinions probably helped along that rumor I was Jewish.
> 
> Also, I was already talking in reference to that post about missle locations.  No biggie.
> 
> Hey, what level of "accuracy" do we demand from McCarthy?  Do folks actually have to have been convicted of being a spy?  Just thinking the commies seemed better for China in '47?
> 
> What did we decide...he was 100% right in finding folks who attended at least one communist party meeting?
Click to expand...


He was at least as good as the IRS was at singling out conservatives.


----------



## Dugdale_Jukes

McCarthy zayn metshish opfal un a fucking shmegege .


----------



## numan

'

*Sen Joe McCarthy: American Patriot and Hero · · ??*

Come on, you guys, I checked!! It's not April Fool's Day !!

I always wondered what happened to all those files of blackmail which he collected --

-- you know, the ones he used to terrorize People in Power, and which kept him in his Postion of Privilege decades long after normal government officials had to retire.

.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Toronado3800 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Frank, I do not believe you are Jewish.  But once after I was in a friend's wedding a fella at work noticed I had an Israeli fighter jet on my pc background screen and well I played along even bringing in the wrong color yamika I had to wear for the wedding.
> 
> Back to the subject at hand: Gary Powers....was he a Russian pilot spying on us or our pilot spying on them?   Lord they were a patient bunch not starting WWIII when they caught us overflying their airspace with what could have been nuclear bomb equipped planes.
> 
> Not that Stalin was not a monster.  Just sayin I do nit remember any Russian planes being caught overflying Ohio.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My wife is Jewish and my sons were bar mitvah, I've been asked to consider converting by 2 separate rabbis and at my first real job they added "-owitz" to my very Italian last name.
> 
> Nothing else in your post is on topic that McCarthy tried to warn us that the Russians had a very robust and active spy network at US State and the White House, all of which has since been confirmed by the Soviets themselves
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Now I meant no offense.  Some of my "pro Israel" opinions probably helped along that rumor I was Jewish.
> 
> Also, I was already talking in reference to that post about missle locations.  No biggie.
> 
> Hey, what level of "accuracy" do we demand from McCarthy?  Do folks actually have to have been convicted of being a spy?  Just thinking the commies seemed better for China in '47?
> 
> What did we decide...he was 100% right in finding folks who attended at least one communist party meeting?
Click to expand...


I think what's been proven is that the left, for all their whinging and hand-wringing, have not been able to find one person "targeted" incorrectly by Joseph McCarthy.  Half the time, they're busy talking about people McCarthy had nothing whatsoever to do with (ie. Lena Horne).


----------



## Luddly Neddite

CrusaderFrank said:


> I'm only about 35 pages into M. Stanton Evans "Blacklisted by History" and I am livid at the utter gall and tremendous scope of the Leftist outright lies.
> 
> Did you know that many of the original documents that McCarthy based his campaign on are missing?
> 
> As recently as March 1993 someone, we don't know who
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> went into the US National Archives and took the Klaus Memo, a 1946 memo by a State Department official Samuel Klaus implicating Alger Hiss and many others as Communist spies?




They found a sale on marshmallows.


----------



## Luddly Neddite

Cecilie1200 said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> My wife is Jewish and my sons were bar mitvah, I've been asked to consider converting by 2 separate rabbis and at my first real job they added "-owitz" to my very Italian last name.
> 
> Nothing else in your post is on topic that McCarthy tried to warn us that the Russians had a very robust and active spy network at US State and the White House, all of which has since been confirmed by the Soviets themselves
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now I meant no offense.  Some of my "pro Israel" opinions probably helped along that rumor I was Jewish.
> 
> Also, I was already talking in reference to that post about missle locations.  No biggie.
> 
> Hey, what level of "accuracy" do we demand from McCarthy?  Do folks actually have to have been convicted of being a spy?  Just thinking the commies seemed better for China in '47?
> 
> What did we decide...he was 100% right in finding folks who attended at least one communist party meeting?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think what's been proven is that the left, for all their whinging and hand-wringing, have not been able to find one person "targeted" incorrectly by Joseph McCarthy.  Half the time, they're busy talking about people McCarthy had nothing whatsoever to do with (ie. Lena Horne).
Click to expand...


Every one of his "targets" were incorrect. 

Idiot knee jerkers never seem to have a fucking clue what you're yammering about.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Luddly Neddite said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now I meant no offense.  Some of my "pro Israel" opinions probably helped along that rumor I was Jewish.
> 
> Also, I was already talking in reference to that post about missle locations.  No biggie.
> 
> Hey, what level of "accuracy" do we demand from McCarthy?  Do folks actually have to have been convicted of being a spy?  Just thinking the commies seemed better for China in '47?
> 
> What did we decide...he was 100% right in finding folks who attended at least one communist party meeting?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think what's been proven is that the left, for all their whinging and hand-wringing, have not been able to find one person "targeted" incorrectly by Joseph McCarthy.  Half the time, they're busy talking about people McCarthy had nothing whatsoever to do with (ie. Lena Horne).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Every one of his "targets" were incorrect.
> 
> Idiot knee jerkers never seem to have a fucking clue what you're yammering about.
Click to expand...


Owen Lattimore

Look him up

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Gadawg73

I have just uncovered evidence of Muslim infiltration into our military! I am sending this information to my no name Senator so he can conduct hearings into this and how the US military has over 300 card carrying Muslims.

We need this and the Senator I am sending it to is a national hero for conducting these hearings.

Please keep this quiet as this is top secret. No one knows he is a Muslim that secretly joined our military.

His name is Nidal Malik Hasan.


----------



## Luddly Neddite

Gadawg73 said:


> I have just uncovered evidence of Muslim infiltration into our military! I am sending this information to my no name Senator so he can conduct hearings into this and how the US military has over 300 card carrying Muslims.
> 
> We need this and the Senator I am sending it to is a national hero for conducting these hearings.
> 
> Please keep this quiet as this is top secret. No one knows he is a Muslim that secretly joined our military.
> 
> His name is Nidal Malik Hasan.


----------



## Cecilie1200

numan said:


> '
> 
> *Sen Joe McCarthy: American Patriot and Hero · · ??*
> 
> Come on, you guys, I checked!! It's not April Fool's Day !!
> 
> I always wondered what happened to all those files of blackmail which he collected --
> 
> -- you know, the ones he used to terrorize People in Power, and which kept him in his Postion of Privilege decades long after normal government officials had to retire.
> 
> .



Really?  Because what I'M wondering is what the fuck you're babbling about.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Luddly Neddite said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now I meant no offense.  Some of my "pro Israel" opinions probably helped along that rumor I was Jewish.
> 
> Also, I was already talking in reference to that post about missle locations.  No biggie.
> 
> Hey, what level of "accuracy" do we demand from McCarthy?  Do folks actually have to have been convicted of being a spy?  Just thinking the commies seemed better for China in '47?
> 
> What did we decide...he was 100% right in finding folks who attended at least one communist party meeting?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think what's been proven is that the left, for all their whinging and hand-wringing, have not been able to find one person "targeted" incorrectly by Joseph McCarthy.  Half the time, they're busy talking about people McCarthy had nothing whatsoever to do with (ie. Lena Horne).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Every one of his "targets" were incorrect.
> 
> Idiot knee jerkers never seem to have a fucking clue what you're yammering about.
Click to expand...


Unfortunately for your idiot worldview, YOU are incorrect.

And I can only assume this vague, broadbrush assertion is because you don't actually even know any of the names of the people investigated by Senator McCarthy's subcommittee, let alone whether or not they were guilty.

Feel free to prove me wrong and produce a name and evidence of innocence . . . and feel free to prove me right by coming back with another meaningless, "I'm right, you're wrong!" pronouncement.  Either way works for me.


----------



## Gadawg73

McCarthy claimed his list had 205 names.
Then it went to 57.
Eisenhower knew a con man when he saw one.
No other man in America during that era had mastered world wide intelligence better than Ike.
He identified McCarthy as a fraud with nothing other than decades old pre-war minor communist associations long gone through mountains of intelligence gathering over 20 years.


----------



## Gadawg73

Cecilie1200 said:


> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think what's been proven is that the left, for all their whinging and hand-wringing, have not been able to find one person "targeted" incorrectly by Joseph McCarthy.  Half the time, they're busy talking about people McCarthy had nothing whatsoever to do with (ie. Lena Horne).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Every one of his "targets" were incorrect.
> 
> Idiot knee jerkers never seem to have a fucking clue what you're yammering about.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Unfortunately for your idiot worldview, YOU are incorrect.
> 
> And I can only assume this vague, broadbrush assertion is because you don't actually even know any of the names of the people investigated by Senator McCarthy's subcommittee, let alone whether or not they were guilty.
> 
> Feel free to prove me wrong and produce a name and evidence of innocence . . . and feel free to prove me right by coming back with another meaningless, "I'm right, you're wrong!" pronouncement.  Either way works for me.
Click to expand...


McCarthy claimed Annie Lee Moss of the Army Signal Corps was a communist.
When asked at the hearings if she knew who Karl Marx was she answered "Who's that".
Moss was a timid black woman that no one with any intelligence believed was a communist and there was NO evidence whatsoever that she was a communist other than rank hearsay from a supposed paid informant from the 40s that claimed she saw the name Ann Moss on a communist membership list.
She never saw Moss and never identified her.
Ditto that for most all of McCarthy's "subcommittee" hearings.
They had no credibility in any investigative or intelligence agency anywhere other than the political hack for political power FBI run by J. Edgar Hoover.
Frankly, it surprises me someone like you that has above average intelligence would fall for such a fraud as all of this was proven to be.
Need more names like Moss that there WAS NO EVIDENCE whatsoever to prove they were communists?
How many do you need?


----------



## Gadawg73

McCarthy introduced numerous doctored and forged photos and documents at these hearings including a supposed memorandum written and signed by J. Edgar Hoover. Hoover offered an affidavit to the committee stating that he never signed that letter, never wrote the letter, never authorized the letter and that NO record of it exists anywhere in FBI files. 
Another example of the fraud that was the show, the norm in the McCarthy "hearings".
Need more?. I have dozens.
Facts sure are a bitch to ideologues.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Gadawg73 said:


> McCarthy claimed his list had 205 names.
> Then it went to 57.
> Eisenhower knew a con man when he saw one.
> No other man in America during that era had mastered world wide intelligence better than Ike.
> He identified McCarthy as a fraud with nothing other than decades old pre-war minor communist associations long gone through mountains of intelligence gathering over 20 years.



What an entertaining pack of lies.


----------



## Gadawg73

McCarthy claimed to have a list of communists working in defense plants.
He was confronted by the Army numerous times in these hearings and the Chief Counsel of the Army TO PRODUCE THAT LIST.
McCarthy never did and then they demanded he produce that list to the FBI and the Department of Defense.
McCarthy never produced any list because NO LIST EXISTED.


----------



## Gadawg73

Cecilie1200 said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> McCarthy claimed his list had 205 names.
> Then it went to 57.
> Eisenhower knew a con man when he saw one.
> No other man in America during that era had mastered world wide intelligence better than Ike.
> He identified McCarthy as a fraud with nothing other than decades old pre-war minor communist associations long gone through mountains of intelligence gathering over 20 years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What an entertaining pack of lies.
Click to expand...


Prove it.
I was wrong about you as I thought you were intelligent.
I was wrong, on this issue you are a fool.
Anyone that believes anything McCarthy claimed is ignorant.
I work in the intelligence field for 34 years. ALL of the old timers that are long gone now that were in the military, the defense plants and all over the defense industry retired from the military did not believe a word McCarthy said. They were the ones that proved HIM a liar.
But you and Joe are right and all of them are wrong.


----------



## Gadawg73

At the end of the McCarthy hearings having been made fools all over the country with their factless allegations, another Senator involved with McCarthy in this witch hunt started to wear down as their circus of lies was unfolding. Senator Stuart Symington was then interested in the secret files that McCArthy had been claiming he had, yet no one ever saw them. Symington, like Joe, was out of ammunition so he next accused McCarthy's own staff of having communists on them! He offered to take the stand in the hearings to reveal their names in exchange for another investigation into staff members of McCarthy.

Amazing anyone with any brains would have fallen for this circus.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Gadawg73 said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> 
> Every one of his "targets" were incorrect.
> 
> Idiot knee jerkers never seem to have a fucking clue what you're yammering about.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately for your idiot worldview, YOU are incorrect.
> 
> And I can only assume this vague, broadbrush assertion is because you don't actually even know any of the names of the people investigated by Senator McCarthy's subcommittee, let alone whether or not they were guilty.
> 
> Feel free to prove me wrong and produce a name and evidence of innocence . . . and feel free to prove me right by coming back with another meaningless, "I'm right, you're wrong!" pronouncement.  Either way works for me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> McCarthy claimed Annie Lee Moss of the Army Signal Corps was a communist.
> When asked at the hearings if she knew who Karl Marx was she answered "Who's that".
> Moss was a timid black woman that no one with any intelligence believed was a communist and there was NO evidence whatsoever that she was a communist other than rank hearsay from a supposed paid informant from the 40s that claimed she saw the name Ann Moss on a communist membership list.
> She never saw Moss and never identified her.
> Ditto that for most all of McCarthy's "subcommittee" hearings.
> They had no credibility in any investigative or intelligence agency anywhere other than the political hack for political power FBI run by J. Edgar Hoover.
> Frankly, it surprises me someone like you that has above average intelligence would fall for such a fraud as all of this was proven to be.
> Need more names like Moss that there WAS NO EVIDENCE whatsoever to prove they were communists?
> How many do you need?
Click to expand...


You should probably not get your "historical facts" from Broadway plays and leftist movies.  I'm just sayin' . . .

Here's the truth about Annie Lee Moss, and you're welcome to provide any evidence - by "evidence", I mean something more than just a post saying, "That's not true!" - disproving it.

The Army Signal Corps was the site of the Rosenberg spy ring, and McCarthy's subcommittee investigated the lax security that had allowed that spy ring to exist.  During that investigation, they found an FBI memo concerning Annie Lee Moss, a cafeteria worker, being made a code clerk and given security clearance for the job.  Obviously, they were curious as to why such a decision was made, and investigated.  Moss was identified by FBI operative Mary Stalcup Markward as a member of the Communist Party.

Just for the record, there is also an FBI memo to the effect that the Bureau actually briefed Democrats on the committee that Moss WAS a Communist.

Unsurprisingly, Markward and Moss were called before the committee to clarify the issue.  Markward testified that she had seen records of Moss paying membership dues to the Communist Party, and that Moss was also on the subscribers' list of the _Daily Worker_.  

Moss and the Democrats on the committee - despite the fact that those very same Democrats had already been told by the FBI that the Annie Lee Moss appearing before them WAS a member of the Communist Party - tried to pretend that she was just a confused, frail old lady, and that maybe it was all a case of mistaken identity.  And, naturally, they tried to play the race card, since Moss was black.

Also just for the record, the fact that Annie Lee Moss - the same Annie Lee Moss who was called to testify before McCarthy's committee - was, in fact, a Communist was verified by the Subversive Activities Control Board in 1958.

Moss herself acknowledged that one of the leaders of the Washington DC Communist Party visited her home, and that she had lived with an active party member who hosted meetings in their home.  

Despite her claims that the Daily Worker was delivered to her home, addressed to her, by mistake, none of the three other Annie Lee Mosses in Washington had ever lived at any of the addresses the Communist Party had on file . . . but the Annie Lee Moss called before the committee had lived at all of them.

No, Annie Lee Moss - the Annie Lee Moss called before McCarthy's committee to testify - was most definitely EXACTLY what McCarthy said she was:  a Communist, and an inappropriately-employed security risk.

Strike one.  Would you care to try again?


----------



## Cecilie1200

Gadawg73 said:


> McCarthy introduced numerous doctored and forged photos and documents at these hearings including a supposed memorandum written and signed by J. Edgar Hoover. Hoover offered an affidavit to the committee stating that he never signed that letter, never wrote the letter, never authorized the letter and that NO record of it exists anywhere in FBI files.
> Another example of the fraud that was the show, the norm in the McCarthy "hearings".
> Need more?. I have dozens.
> Facts sure are a bitch to ideologues.



Well, if these bitches are "facts", then you won't mind substantiating them, rather than expecting me to take your word for it, right?

I'll be waiting, but I won't be holding my breath.


----------



## Luddly Neddite

Gadawg73 said:


> At the end of the McCarthy hearings having been made fools all over the country with their factless allegations, another Senator involved with McCarthy in this witch hunt started to wear down as their circus of lies was unfolding. Senator Stuart Symington was then interested in the secret files that McCArthy had been claiming he had, yet no one ever saw them. Symington, like Joe, was out of ammunition so he next accused McCarthy's own staff of having communists on them! He offered to take the stand in the hearings to reveal their names in exchange for another investigation into staff members of McCarthy.
> 
> Amazing anyone with any brains would have fallen for this circus.



Worse, some of us didn't learn from the mistakes, from the terrible damage done by McCarthy.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones

Gadawg73 said:


> At the end of the McCarthy hearings having been made fools all over the country with their factless allegations, another Senator involved with McCarthy in this witch hunt started to wear down as their circus of lies was unfolding. Senator Stuart Symington was then interested in the secret files that McCArthy had been claiming he had, yet no one ever saw them. Symington, like Joe, was out of ammunition so he next accused McCarthy's own staff of having communists on them! He offered to take the stand in the hearings to reveal their names in exchange for another investigation into staff members of McCarthy.
> 
> Amazing anyone with any brains would have fallen for this circus.



Its a textbook example of playing on the fears of Americans. For McCarthy it was the fear of the spread of communism, today its the fear of terrorism.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Luddly Neddite said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> At the end of the McCarthy hearings having been made fools all over the country with their factless allegations, another Senator involved with McCarthy in this witch hunt started to wear down as their circus of lies was unfolding. Senator Stuart Symington was then interested in the secret files that McCArthy had been claiming he had, yet no one ever saw them. Symington, like Joe, was out of ammunition so he next accused McCarthy's own staff of having communists on them! He offered to take the stand in the hearings to reveal their names in exchange for another investigation into staff members of McCarthy.
> 
> Amazing anyone with any brains would have fallen for this circus.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Worse, some of us didn't learn from the mistakes, from the terrible damage done by McCarthy.
Click to expand...


Aren't you supposed to be coming up with some names of innocent people incorrectly accused by McCarthy?  And yet, here you are, posting yet another empty "I'm right, you're wrong, no I can't prove it, just take my word for it" blurb.

Once again, shitstain, if McCarthy did "terrible damage", as you keep asserting, you should be able to tell us exactly WHAT "terrible damage" he did, and to whom, and provide proof.  The fact that you continue to decline to do so is evidenced that you're a liar, and you know you're a liar.

So this post is YOUR Strike One.  Care to go for two?


----------



## regent

One of the hits of the army-McCarthy hearings was a doctored photograph introduced by the McCarthy side. The commentary on the photograph by army attorney Welch was priceless.  Those hearings should be put on TV every so often so that we remember what McCarthy and the McCarthy period was truly like. Since those hearings, has America had another McCarthy, not a junior version, or a period of McCarthyism?


----------



## Cecilie1200

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> At the end of the McCarthy hearings having been made fools all over the country with their factless allegations, another Senator involved with McCarthy in this witch hunt started to wear down as their circus of lies was unfolding. Senator Stuart Symington was then interested in the secret files that McCArthy had been claiming he had, yet no one ever saw them. Symington, like Joe, was out of ammunition so he next accused McCarthy's own staff of having communists on them! He offered to take the stand in the hearings to reveal their names in exchange for another investigation into staff members of McCarthy.
> 
> Amazing anyone with any brains would have fallen for this circus.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Its a textbook example of playing on the fears of Americans. For McCarthy it was the fear of the spread of communism, today its the fear of terrorism.
Click to expand...


It's the textbook example of denial:  Nope, nothing to see here, you're just paranoid.  First it was Communism, now it's terrorism.  Leftists never get any smarter.


----------



## Cecilie1200

regent said:


> One of the hits of the army-McCarthy hearings was a doctored photograph introduced by the McCarthy side. The commentary on the photograph by army attorney Welch was priceless.  Those hearings should be put on TV every so often so that we remember what McCarthy and the McCarthy period was truly like. Since those hearings, has America had another McCarthy, not a junior version, or a period of McCarthyism?



More unsubstantiated assertions.

Swing . . . and a miss!

Insofar as the COMPLETE Army-McCarthy hearings provide a VERY different picture than the accepted propaganda version, there's no way in Hell the left would EVER allow such a thing to be televised.

Try again.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Gadawg73 said:


> McCarthy claimed to have a list of communists working in defense plants.
> He was confronted by the Army numerous times in these hearings and the Chief Counsel of the Army TO PRODUCE THAT LIST.
> McCarthy never did and then they demanded he produce that list to the FBI and the Department of Defense.
> McCarthy never produced any list because NO LIST EXISTED.



Substantiation?  No?  ::yawn::  Then all I hear is the hisssss of escaping gas.


----------



## Toronado3800

Cecilie1200 said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> My wife is Jewish and my sons were bar mitvah, I've been asked to consider converting by 2 separate rabbis and at my first real job they added "-owitz" to my very Italian last name.
> 
> Nothing else in your post is on topic that McCarthy tried to warn us that the Russians had a very robust and active spy network at US State and the White House, all of which has since been confirmed by the Soviets themselves
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now I meant no offense.  Some of my "pro Israel" opinions probably helped along that rumor I was Jewish.
> 
> Also, I was already talking in reference to that post about missle locations.  No biggie.
> 
> Hey, what level of "accuracy" do we demand from McCarthy?  Do folks actually have to have been convicted of being a spy?  Just thinking the commies seemed better for China in '47?
> 
> What did we decide...he was 100% right in finding folks who attended at least one communist party meeting?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I think what's been proven is that the left, for all their whinging and hand-wringing, have not been able to find one person "targeted" incorrectly by Joseph McCarthy.  Half the time, they're busy talking about people McCarthy had nothing whatsoever to do with (ie. Lena Horne).
Click to expand...


Wait, was that reply to my question?

Just please tell me what counts as "guilty" or "not guilty" or heck, even throw me a "worth investigating".  

Just please give an answer not a dodge.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Toronado3800 said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now I meant no offense.  Some of my "pro Israel" opinions probably helped along that rumor I was Jewish.
> 
> Also, I was already talking in reference to that post about missle locations.  No biggie.
> 
> Hey, what level of "accuracy" do we demand from McCarthy?  Do folks actually have to have been convicted of being a spy?  Just thinking the commies seemed better for China in '47?
> 
> What did we decide...he was 100% right in finding folks who attended at least one communist party meeting?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think what's been proven is that the left, for all their whinging and hand-wringing, have not been able to find one person "targeted" incorrectly by Joseph McCarthy.  Half the time, they're busy talking about people McCarthy had nothing whatsoever to do with (ie. Lena Horne).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wait, was that reply to my question?
> 
> Just please tell me what counts as "guilty" or "not guilty" or heck, even throw me a "worth investigating".
> 
> Just please give an answer not a dodge.
Click to expand...


What the fuck are you talking about?

You asked, "What did we decide?"  And I told you.  It has been "decided" - ie. proven - that the left is full of shit on the subject of McCarthy.

In regards to your blather about "guilty or not guilty", these people weren't on trial.  They were being investigated as possible security risks by a Senate subcommittee whose job was government oversight.  The fact that you don't even fucking know what the point of the whole exercise WAS tells me you have no business discussing it.

Is that straightforward enough for you?


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones

McCarthy was a liar, a demagogue, and a partisan hack  he contrived controversies where none existed, just to advance his career. 



> By the end of the McCarthy hearings, the senator's career was over; before an audience that often numbered 20 million Americans, he came across as bullying and unscrupulous. Yet today, more and more conservative writers are trying to vindicate the late senator. Authors M. Stanton Evans and Ann Coulter, for example, have claimed that McCarthy was more right than wrong because he, along with dozens of other anticommunists, was correct that the government was riddled with spies.
> 
> *The FBI agents who actually chased Soviet spies have a very different perspective.*
> 
> Robert J. Lamphere, who participated in all the FBI's major spy cases during the McCarthy period, was one. Lamphere also was the FBI liaison to the U.S. Army's Signal Intelligence Service's Venona program, which was intercepting secret Soviet communications. He used leads from the intercepts to work cases involving notorious espionage figures such as Klaus Fuchs, Harry Gold, David Greenglass, Ethel and Julius Rosenberg and Kim Philby.
> 
> Lamphere (who died in 2002), told me in an interview that agents who worked counterintelligence were appalled that FBI director J. Edgar Hoover initially supported McCarthy. True enough, the Venona intercepts revealed that hundreds more Soviet spies had operated in the government than was believed at the time.
> 
> *"The problem was that McCarthy lied about his information and figures," Lamphere said. "He made charges against people that weren't true. McCarthyism harmed the counterintelligence effort against the Soviet threat because of the revulsion it caused."*
> 
> The Army-McCarthy hearings followed a pattern, notes Donald A. Ritchie, associate historian of the Senate. Typically, McCarthy held hearings in executive session first, "like a dress rehearsal," says Mr. Ritchie, who studied the transcripts of the hearings. *Mostly McCarthy didn't have any hard evidence against the people he was interrogating*; he just hoped to get them to contradict themselves or to take the Fifth Amendment, or to confess.
> 
> *During the hearings, McCarthy failed to substantiate his claims that communists had penetrated the Army.*
> 
> The Real Joe McCarthy - WSJ.com



*Mostly McCarthy didn't have any hard evidence against the people he was interrogating* 

And the likes of Darrell Issa continue that republican tradition today with equally baseless accusations. 

McCarthyism indeed.


----------



## Toronado3800

Cecilie1200 said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think what's been proven is that the left, for all their whinging and hand-wringing, have not been able to find one person "targeted" incorrectly by Joseph McCarthy.  Half the time, they're busy talking about people McCarthy had nothing whatsoever to do with (ie. Lena Horne).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wait, was that reply to my question?
> 
> Just please tell me what counts as "guilty" or "not guilty" or heck, even throw me a "worth investigating".
> 
> Just please give an answer not a dodge.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What the fuck are you talking about?
> 
> You asked, "What did we decide?"  And I told you.  It has been "decided" - ie. proven - that the left is full of shit on the subject of McCarthy.
> 
> In regards to your blather about "guilty or not guilty", these people weren't on trial.  They were being investigated as possible security risks by a Senate subcommittee whose job was government oversight.  The fact that you don't even fucking know what the point of the whole exercise WAS tells me you have no business discussing it.
> 
> Is that straightforward enough for you?
Click to expand...


Ma'm, you sound way to confrontational and emotional about this.

If you would just say something adult or intelligent like "everyone he called out did something suspicous" I might say "yup" and that is the end of it.

Instead you get all sounding like Rush Linbaugh taught you how to talk to people.  I hope we never agree on anything because you can make a reasonable point of view look otherwise


----------



## Toronado3800

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> McCarthy was a liar, a demagogue, and a partisan hack  he contrived controversies where none existed, just to advance his career.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By the end of the McCarthy hearings, the senator's career was over; before an audience that often numbered 20 million Americans, he came across as bullying and unscrupulous. Yet today, more and more conservative writers are trying to vindicate the late senator. Authors M. Stanton Evans and Ann Coulter, for example, have claimed that McCarthy was more right than wrong because he, along with dozens of other anticommunists, was correct that the government was riddled with spies.
> 
> *The FBI agents who actually chased Soviet spies have a very different perspective.*
> 
> Robert J. Lamphere, who participated in all the FBI's major spy cases during the McCarthy period, was one. Lamphere also was the FBI liaison to the U.S. Army's Signal Intelligence Service's Venona program, which was intercepting secret Soviet communications. He used leads from the intercepts to work cases involving notorious espionage figures such as Klaus Fuchs, Harry Gold, David Greenglass, Ethel and Julius Rosenberg and Kim Philby.
> 
> Lamphere (who died in 2002), told me in an interview that agents who worked counterintelligence were appalled that FBI director J. Edgar Hoover initially supported McCarthy. True enough, the Venona intercepts revealed that hundreds more Soviet spies had operated in the government than was believed at the time.
> 
> *"The problem was that McCarthy lied about his information and figures," Lamphere said. "He made charges against people that weren't true. McCarthyism harmed the counterintelligence effort against the Soviet threat because of the revulsion it caused."*
> 
> The Army-McCarthy hearings followed a pattern, notes Donald A. Ritchie, associate historian of the Senate. Typically, McCarthy held hearings in executive session first, "like a dress rehearsal," says Mr. Ritchie, who studied the transcripts of the hearings. *Mostly McCarthy didn't have any hard evidence against the people he was interrogating*; he just hoped to get them to contradict themselves or to take the Fifth Amendment, or to confess.
> 
> *During the hearings, McCarthy failed to substantiate his claims that communists had penetrated the Army.*
> 
> The Real Joe McCarthy - WSJ.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Mostly McCarthy didn't have any hard evidence against the people he was interrogating*
> 
> And the likes of Darrell Issa continue that republican tradition today with equally baseless accusations.
> 
> McCarthyism indeed.
Click to expand...


Clayton, if angry Joe could not find 50 folks with at least some "ties" to communism in the 50's he would have been an even bigger idiot.  Remember these folks all lived through the 30's when a socialist revolution seem a possibility.  These folks just do not seem to know how to say that.


----------



## Wry Catcher

Sen. McCarthy was a drunk and a liar.  At least that was how he was perceived by the Journalists of the day; a  time when Journalism had ethics, I should add.  Today the history of his time of fame is being rewritten as foreseen in the Novel "1984". 

See: 

Edward R. Murrow: A Report on Senator Joseph R. McCarthy


----------



## Vandalshandle

"Tailgunner Joe" Mccarthy had his picture taken in the tailgunner position in an airplane in WW2, although he actually had a desk job. That did not keep him from claiming that he had flown 32 missions. He had actually flown none. He used the photo in his campaign to get elected. I used to live in Reno. and the story is that Joe and his aids where staying at the Mapes Hotel there one night, and together drreamed up the communist witch hunt as a way to get publicity. China had been taken over by communists, and the Soviets had deveoped the bomb. Everyone was paranoid about the world wide communist conspiracy, especially after the Korean War began. In the movie, "Manchurian Candidate" McCarthy was represented by a character who was accusing everyone to be a communist, in order to get on the ticket as a VP candidate. In the last scene of the movie, he was assasinated by the hero.During the Army hearings, the attorney that finally stood up to Joe, and cut him down to size in a statement he made to the effect that , "...at long last, have you no decency, sir....?". This attorney later played the part as the judge in the movie, "Anatomy of a murder", with Jimmy Stewart.

Joe was actually on good terms with JFK, since he dated one of JFK's sisters for a while. However, he became a full blown alchololic while in office. He bragged to people that he did not get drunk, no matter how much he drank, because he ate a stick of butter that lined his stomach when he was drinking, and kept his body from absorbing alcohol too quickly. Robert Kennedy worked for him for about 6 months, but bailed out when he saw what Joe was all about. He did everybody a big favor by dying of acute alcoholism in 1957 at a very early age.By that time, Edward R. Murrow had destroyed Joe's career.


----------



## Gadawg73

The very few communists that McCArthy did come outwith from his supposed "list" WERE communistsand a few spies.
But everyone had been exposed and filtered out by the late 40s long before Joe McCarthy and his hearings.

This all came about with Ann Coulter's book which she waited for every one involved on the intelligence and defense side to die before she published it.

No one with any credibility in the intelligence or defense industry takes it seriously.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Luddly Neddite said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now I meant no offense.  Some of my "pro Israel" opinions probably helped along that rumor I was Jewish.
> 
> Also, I was already talking in reference to that post about missle locations.  No biggie.
> 
> Hey, what level of "accuracy" do we demand from McCarthy?  Do folks actually have to have been convicted of being a spy?  Just thinking the commies seemed better for China in '47?
> 
> What did we decide...he was 100% right in finding folks who attended at least one communist party meeting?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think what's been proven is that the left, for all their whinging and hand-wringing, have not been able to find one person "targeted" incorrectly by Joseph McCarthy.  Half the time, they're busy talking about people McCarthy had nothing whatsoever to do with (ie. Lena Horne).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Every one of his "targets" were incorrect.
> 
> Idiot knee jerkers never seem to have a fucking clue what you're yammering about.
Click to expand...


Name one.

Please give me one name that Joe McCarthy incorrectly identitfied


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Gadawg73 said:


> McCarthy claimed his list had 205 names.
> Then it went to 57.
> Eisenhower knew a con man when he saw one.
> No other man in America during that era had mastered world wide intelligence better than Ike.
> He identified McCarthy as a fraud with nothing other than decades old pre-war minor communist associations long gone through mountains of intelligence gathering over 20 years.



So you know nothing about McCarthy.

Mmmmkay

Did you know that Communist spies were feeding information on our Korean troops back to their masters in China and getting US soldiers killed?

Why do you think Korea is "The Forgotten War"?


----------



## Gadawg73

CrusaderFrank said:


> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think what's been proven is that the left, for all their whinging and hand-wringing, have not been able to find one person "targeted" incorrectly by Joseph McCarthy.  Half the time, they're busy talking about people McCarthy had nothing whatsoever to do with (ie. Lena Horne).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Every one of his "targets" were incorrect.
> 
> Idiot knee jerkers never seem to have a fucking clue what you're yammering about.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Name one.
> 
> Please give me one name that Joe McCarthy incorrectly identitfied
Click to expand...


Lena Horne and Annie Moss are two.
Please print the list he had with all of the names.


----------



## Gadawg73

CrusaderFrank said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> McCarthy claimed his list had 205 names.
> Then it went to 57.
> Eisenhower knew a con man when he saw one.
> No other man in America during that era had mastered world wide intelligence better than Ike.
> He identified McCarthy as a fraud with nothing other than decades old pre-war minor communist associations long gone through mountains of intelligence gathering over 20 years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you know nothing about McCarthy.
> 
> Mmmmkay
> 
> Did you know that Communist spies were feeding information on our Korean troops back to their masters in China and getting US soldiers killed?
> 
> Why do you think Korea is "The Forgotten War"?
Click to expand...


My uncle was an intelligence officer in WWII and Korea and my father was a Marine Captain WWII and Korea. 
Uncle Bill was with and intelligence unit that set up shop in Seoul, Korea in the late 40s. They

Not a forgotten war in my family. We lived in Jacksonville NC where Camp Lejeune is located where Dad came back to in 1954 and I was born in Raleigh 1954.

Most all American communists were has been labor goons that were left overs from the labor movement along with left leaning socialists that aligned themselves with Soviet style communism from the late 30s to the end of WWII.
They WERE in the Roosevelt administration but they had been exposed by the late 40s and had no influence whatsoever in THE EISENHOWER ADMINISTRATION which was the one on in office then.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Gadawg73 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> 
> Every one of his "targets" were incorrect.
> 
> Idiot knee jerkers never seem to have a fucking clue what you're yammering about.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Name one.
> 
> Please give me one name that Joe McCarthy incorrectly identitfied
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Lena Horne and Annie Moss are two.
> Please print the list he had with all of the names.
Click to expand...


Annie Moss perjured herself before McCarthy's committee and was in fact a Communist

 Lena Horne? 

Here's three genuine Communist outed by McCarthy: Lauchlin Currie, Owen Lattimore, John Stewart Service

Lena Horne???

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Gadawg73

CrusaderFrank said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Name one.
> 
> Please give me one name that Joe McCarthy incorrectly identitfied
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lena Horne and Annie Moss are two.
> Please print the list he had with all of the names.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Annie Moss perjured herself before McCarthy's committee and was in fact a Communist
> 
> Lena Horne?
> 
> Here's three genuine Communist outed by McCarthy: Lauchlin Currie, Owen Lattimore, John Stewart Service
> 
> Lena Horne???
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...


Show us the evidence she was a communist OTHER than a woman that came in, NEVER IDENTIFIED MOSS PHYSICALLY and the only evidence this supposed "informant" offered was "I saw the name Ann Moss on a communist member list"

Now come on Frank! Is that all the evidence YOU need?
If so then you are seriously lacking in any judgment on how to tell if a witness is credible or not..

How many people were named Ann Moss in the US at that time Frank?
Jesus, unbelievable you would go with that evidence only Frank.

SHOW US SOME EVIDENCE MOSS WAS A COMMUNIST FRANK!

Something, anything, somewhere, ANYWHERE. 

McCarthy was the laughing stock of the entire hearings when Moss testified. 

*WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE FRANK????*


----------



## Vandalshandle

Among many others, McCarthey smeared the good name of patriots George Marshall and Dean Acheson, and even said that President Truman was a tool of the communists.

McCarthy was about as evil as an American polititian could possibly get.

Modern History Sourcebook: Senator Josephy McCarthy: The History of George Catlett Marshall, 1951


----------



## CrusaderFrank

Gadawg73 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lena Horne and Annie Moss are two.
> Please print the list he had with all of the names.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Annie Moss perjured herself before McCarthy's committee and was in fact a Communist
> 
> Lena Horne?
> 
> Here's three genuine Communist outed by McCarthy: Lauchlin Currie, Owen Lattimore, John Stewart Service
> 
> Lena Horne???
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Show us the evidence she was a communist OTHER than a woman that came in, NEVER IDENTIFIED MOSS PHYSICALLY and the only evidence this supposed "informant" offered was "I saw the name Ann Moss on a communist member list"
> 
> Now come on Frank! Is that all the evidence YOU need?
> If so then you are seriously lacking in any judgment on how to tell if a witness is credible or not..
> 
> How many people were named Ann Moss in the US at that time Frank?
> Jesus, unbelievable you would go with that evidence only Frank.
> 
> SHOW US SOME EVIDENCE MOSS WAS A COMMUNIST FRANK!
> 
> Something, anything, somewhere, ANYWHERE.
> 
> McCarthy was the laughing stock of the entire hearings when Moss testified.
> 
> *WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE FRANK????*
Click to expand...


Her address matched the address of the Annie Moss that was listed as a party member and subscriber of the daily worker

 She lied when she testified

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## regent

CrusaderFrank said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> McCarthy claimed his list had 205 names.
> Then it went to 57.
> Eisenhower knew a con man when he saw one.
> No other man in America during that era had mastered world wide intelligence better than Ike.
> He identified McCarthy as a fraud with nothing other than decades old pre-war minor communist associations long gone through mountains of intelligence gathering over 20 years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you know nothing about McCarthy.
> 
> Mmmmkay
> 
> Did you know that Communist spies were feeding information on our Korean troops back to their masters in China and getting US soldiers killed?
> 
> Why do you think Korea is "The Forgotten War"?
Click to expand...


So why is Korea the forgotten war?


----------



## regent

The unknown about the anticommunism period in America is did the fear somewhat force politicians to make wrong decisions? Did Truman go into Korea because of the anticommunism frenzy? Suppose America had seen the future and realized that many people wanted a better life; that the European powers could not hold onto their Asian colonies and would have to let them go. Would the Vietnamese revolutionists have followed America instead of the communists had we offered to help them gain their independence when they asked us for help? 
Seems strange that America, born of revolution to throw off Britain, so often took the side of the Europeans to retain their colonies. America had the better product but the communists seem to win in the propaganda war. Did communism create such fear we could not make good decisions about the future or had we become another European power committed to the past?


----------



## CrusaderFrank

regent said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> McCarthy claimed his list had 205 names.
> Then it went to 57.
> Eisenhower knew a con man when he saw one.
> No other man in America during that era had mastered world wide intelligence better than Ike.
> He identified McCarthy as a fraud with nothing other than decades old pre-war minor communist associations long gone through mountains of intelligence gathering over 20 years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you know nothing about McCarthy.
> 
> Mmmmkay
> 
> Did you know that Communist spies were feeding information on our Korean troops back to their masters in China and getting US soldiers killed?
> 
> Why do you think Korea is "The Forgotten War"?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So why is Korea the forgotten war?
Click to expand...


A few reasons: it knocks the props out from under the "Red Scare" scenario. The USSR tried to start WWIII a year before with the Berlin Blockade and the North Koreans with a greenlight from Mao started killing US Soldiers in Korea. Second, it might be, um, embarrassing, if it were to come out that prominent Democrats in the WH and State were actually spies relaying back information on our strategy and troop movements to their masters


----------



## numan

Gadawg73 said:


> At the end of the McCarthy hearings having been made fools all over the country with their factless allegations, another Senator involved with McCarthy in this witch hunt started to wear down as their circus of lies was unfolding. Senator Stuart Symington was then interested in the secret files that McCArthy had been claiming he had, yet no one ever saw them. Symington, like Joe, was out of ammunition so he next accused McCarthy's own staff of having communists on them! He offered to take the stand in the hearings to reveal their names in exchange for another investigation into staff members of McCarthy.
> 
> Amazing anyone with any brains would have fallen for this circus.


Well, of course no one with any brains would have fallen for it -- but that's beside the point, isn't it? We're talking about the majority of the American people here!

No one who didn't live through the 50's has any idea of the crudity of the propaganda of the sinister fledgling National Security State of that sorry period of American totalitarianism.

Of course, the propaganda today is as pervasive or more pervasive than when a satanic commie lurked under every bed -- satanic "terrorists" have replaced the commies, a pretty pale second best, but it's enough to maintain the Military-Industrial Conspiracy and keep the war profiteers happy.

However, modern American totalitarianism is much more snazzy and sophisticated -- the CIA and the advertisers have made great progress in the science of brainwashing. That, I think, is the reason why the TV programs of the 50's are so seldom seen today. Modern sheeple may be more comatose and zombified than people in the past, but they are used to much more sophisticated mind control. The crudity of the older techniques make the mental manipulation all too clear  and obvious, and if people became aware that their minds were being programmed back then, they might begin to wonder if it's happening today -- and then, who knows where such unsettling thought might lead? Carefully contrived conditioning might be damaged or destroyed -- it could wreck our entire internal economy!
.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

So how long will you ignore Owen Lattimore, Lauchlin Currie and John Stewart Service and that's just for starters?

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Cecilie1200

CrusaderFrank said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> Annie Moss perjured herself before McCarthy's committee and was in fact a Communist
> 
> Lena Horne?
> 
> Here's three genuine Communist outed by McCarthy: Lauchlin Currie, Owen Lattimore, John Stewart Service
> 
> Lena Horne???
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Show us the evidence she was a communist OTHER than a woman that came in, NEVER IDENTIFIED MOSS PHYSICALLY and the only evidence this supposed "informant" offered was "I saw the name Ann Moss on a communist member list"
> 
> Now come on Frank! Is that all the evidence YOU need?
> If so then you are seriously lacking in any judgment on how to tell if a witness is credible or not..
> 
> How many people were named Ann Moss in the US at that time Frank?
> Jesus, unbelievable you would go with that evidence only Frank.
> 
> SHOW US SOME EVIDENCE MOSS WAS A COMMUNIST FRANK!
> 
> Something, anything, somewhere, ANYWHERE.
> 
> McCarthy was the laughing stock of the entire hearings when Moss testified.
> 
> *WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE FRANK????*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Her address matched the address of the Annie Moss that was listed as a party member and subscriber of the daily worker
> 
> She lied when she testified
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...


Oh, and the FBI secretly briefed the Democrats on the committee to the effect that she was a Communist.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Vandalshandle said:


> Among many others, McCarthey smeared the good name of patriots George Marshall and Dean Acheson, and even said that President Truman was a tool of the communists.
> 
> McCarthy was about as evil as an American polititian could possibly get.
> 
> Modern History Sourcebook: Senator Josephy McCarthy: The History of George Catlett Marshall, 1951



George Marshall and Dean Acheson, patriots?!  DEAN ACHESON?!  

At first, I thought you were stupid.  Now I think you're insane.


----------



## regent

CrusaderFrank said:


> So how long will you ignore Owen Lattimore, Lauchlin Currie and John Stewart Service and that's just for starters?
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2



Let us take Owen Lattimore, for as McCarthy said he would stake his whole case on Lattimore being a communist.  
So what happened with Lattimore were the McCarthy charges true that he was a communist or not. Can you cite the case or investigation where Lattimore was found to be a communist? Was Lattimore tried in a federal or state court or was it just an investigation? What was the evidence that finally proved Lattimore was a communist? 
McCarthy also was reported to have told a reporter that Lattimore had received instructions from four soviet agents landed by a soviet submarine, was this also true and confirmed in the investigation? Was Budenz the only witness against Lattimore and was Budenz's testimony under oath and did it convince anyone that Lattimore was an agent? What other evidence was used to prove Lattimore was an agent or even a communist?


----------



## Vandalshandle

Cecilie1200 said:


> Vandalshandle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Among many others, McCarthey smeared the good name of patriots George Marshall and Dean Acheson, and even said that President Truman was a tool of the communists.
> 
> McCarthy was about as evil as an American polititian could possibly get.
> 
> Modern History Sourcebook: Senator Josephy McCarthy: The History of George Catlett Marshall, 1951
> 
> 
> 
> 
> George Marshall and Dean Acheson, patriots?!  DEAN ACHESON?!
> 
> At first, I thought you were stupid.  Now I think you're insane.
Click to expand...




Yes, You read it correctly.  "...patriots, such as Dean Acheson". In your case, this would be history that you need to study. In my case, I do not need to, because I lived it:

Dean Acheson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Cecilie1200

regent said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> So how long will you ignore Owen Lattimore, Lauchlin Currie and John Stewart Service and that's just for starters?
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let us take Owen Lattimore, for as McCarthy said he would stake his whole case on Lattimore being a communist.
> So what happened with Lattimore were the McCarthy charges true that he was a communist or not. Can you cite the case or investigation where Lattimore was found to be a communist? Was Lattimore tried in a federal or state court or was it just an investigation? What was the evidence that finally proved Lattimore was a communist?
> McCarthy also was reported to have told a reporter that Lattimore had received instructions from four soviet agents landed by a soviet submarine, was this also true and confirmed in the investigation? Was Budenz the only witness against Lattimore and was Budenz's testimony under oath and did it convince anyone that Lattimore was an agent? What other evidence was used to prove Lattimore was an agent or even a communist?
Click to expand...


Nice attempt at a strawman, but since being a Communist was not and still isn't a crime, demanding to know about a trial for it is disingenuous.

As to evidence, Louis Budenz, a member of the Communist Party USA Politburo testified that Lattimore was handpicked by Comintern (and if you ask me what that is, you will earn yourself an automatic ignore as a dumbfuck who has no business discussing this topic) to engage in propaganda on behalf of the Soviet Union.  Soviet diplomats identified Lattimore to the FBI as an agent of the Soviet Union.  The McCarran Committee called him a "conscious articulate instrument of the Soviet conspiracy" after investigating him, and Lattimore was indicted for perjury over his testimony before that committee.  Lattimore was instrumental in getting people jobs in government service who were later found to be Soviet operatives.

Basically, if Owen Lattimore wasn't an operative of the Soviet Union, then he was an idiot for working for them for free instead of getting paid.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Vandalshandle said:


> Cecilie1200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vandalshandle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Among many others, McCarthey smeared the good name of patriots George Marshall and Dean Acheson, and even said that President Truman was a tool of the communists.
> 
> McCarthy was about as evil as an American polititian could possibly get.
> 
> Modern History Sourcebook: Senator Josephy McCarthy: The History of George Catlett Marshall, 1951
> 
> 
> 
> 
> George Marshall and Dean Acheson, patriots?!  DEAN ACHESON?!
> 
> At first, I thought you were stupid.  Now I think you're insane.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, You read it correctly.  "...patriots, such as Dean Acheson". In your case, this would be history that you need to study. In my case, I do not need to, because I lived it:
> 
> Dean Acheson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Click to expand...


First of all, I didn't think I read it incorrectly.  I just can't believe anyone would be so fucking nuts as to say such a thing.

Second of all, Wikipedia?  Bitch, please.


----------



## Toronado3800

CrusaderFrank said:


> So how long will you ignore Owen Lattimore, Lauchlin Currie and John Stewart Service and that's just for starters?
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2



Frank, Cecilie1200 had no ability to answer and got mean, but what counts as a "good" McCarthy accusation?  

I am trying to guess from posts.  For sure if someone was ever a member of the Communist Party that seems to make them a good target for the purposes of this thread.  

This is not my area of expertise.  What is the Dean Acheson talk?  

I was aware McCarthy seemed annoyed by Marshall, the man who came up with the Marshall plan against the spread of communism oddly enough.  But that was a short term thing if I recall.

Did McCarthy really even "go after" Marshall or Acheson enough for this to be an issue?  To me it seems like a modern rant on talk radio type of mud slinging he did.


----------



## Toronado3800

Dean Acheson - Conservapedia

Conservapedia, the place where I once read a back page discussion on how to soften wording on McCarthy's alcoholism, is pretty low key on the whole Acheson thing.  Were McCarthy's attacks that big of a thing or just random talk radio type stuff blaming anyone and everyone for somehow not keeping China from going Communist.


----------



## Cecilie1200

Toronado3800 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> So how long will you ignore Owen Lattimore, Lauchlin Currie and John Stewart Service and that's just for starters?
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Frank, Cecilie1200 had no ability to answer and got mean, but what counts as a "good" McCarthy accusation?
> 
> I am trying to guess from posts.  For sure if someone was ever a member of the Communist Party that seems to make them a good target for the purposes of this thread.
> 
> This is not my area of expertise.  What is the Dean Acheson talk?
> 
> I was aware McCarthy seemed annoyed by Marshall, the man who came up with the Marshall plan against the spread of communism oddly enough.  But that was a short term thing if I recall.
> 
> Did McCarthy really even "go after" Marshall or Acheson enough for this to be an issue?  To me it seems like a modern rant on talk radio type of mud slinging he did.
Click to expand...


I answer just fine, but you get so stuck on "You weren't nice to me!" that your reading comprehension goes out the window.  Not my problem.

Marshall was an incompetent, which is why a lot of people in government didn't like him, including McCarthy.  And the Marshall Plan as he proposed it, despite what has been taught in school for years, was actually a prime example of what an incompetent he was.

McCarthy disliked Acheson greatly on a personal level, and thought he was incompetent as well.  As with Marshall, McCarthy wasn't alone in thinking this.

As rude as McCarthy was about these men - and no one has ever denied that McCarthy was quite rude and blunt - these personal conflicts were not really any different from a member of Congress making derogatory remarks about administration members today, except that most politicians tend to be more polite and circumspect in their word choices.  They were largely separate from McCarthy's interest in pursuing security risks in the government (although McCarthy did think, with some justification, that their incompetence at their jobs was helpful to America's interests).


----------



## Cecilie1200

Toronado3800 said:


> Dean Acheson - Conservapedia
> 
> Conservapedia, the place where I once read a back page discussion on how to soften wording on McCarthy's alcoholism, is pretty low key on the whole Acheson thing.  Were McCarthy's attacks that big of a thing or just random talk radio type stuff blaming anyone and everyone for somehow not keeping China from going Communist.



As mentioned, Acheson was incompetent and lousy as a Secretary of State.  I don't think anyone, including Joe McCarthy, actually thought the man was a Communist or actively subversive.  His main connection with the pursuance of Communists, Soviet operatives, and security risks was his open support of Alger Hiss when Hiss was accused of spying and convicted of perjury, which went quite a ways toward proving Acheson was incompetent.


----------



## Toronado3800

Cecilie1200 said:


> Toronado3800 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dean Acheson - Conservapedia
> 
> Conservapedia, the place where I once read a back page discussion on how to soften wording on McCarthy's alcoholism, is pretty low key on the whole Acheson thing.  Were McCarthy's attacks that big of a thing or just random talk radio type stuff blaming anyone and everyone for somehow not keeping China from going Communist.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As mentioned, Acheson was incompetent and lousy as a Secretary of State.  I don't think anyone, including Joe McCarthy, actually thought the man was a Communist or actively subversive.  His main connection with the pursuance of Communists, Soviet operatives, and security risks was his open support of Alger Hiss when Hiss was accused of spying and convicted of perjury, which went quite a ways toward proving Acheson was incompetent.
Click to expand...


Thank you.

Unless I am missing a bit it seems the attacks on Marshall and Acheson were unofficial and akin to folks debating the surge in our latest war and all that.  To declare McCarthy "wrong" about them would be similar to declaring someone "wrong" about Obama being a socialist or Reagan being the trend setter with big government bailouts.  In other words it is all in the point of view and either opinion is at least able to be defended.


----------



## Gadawg73

CrusaderFrank said:


> So how long will you ignore Owen Lattimore, Lauchlin Currie and John Stewart Service and that's just for starters?
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2



All exposed LONG before MacCarthy.


----------



## regent

Cecilie1200 said:


> regent said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> So how long will you ignore Owen Lattimore, Lauchlin Currie and John Stewart Service and that's just for starters?
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let us take Owen Lattimore, for as McCarthy said he would stake his whole case on Lattimore being a communist.
> So what happened with Lattimore were the McCarthy charges true that he was a communist or not. Can you cite the case or investigation where Lattimore was found to be a communist? Was Lattimore tried in a federal or state court or was it just an investigation? What was the evidence that finally proved Lattimore was a communist?
> McCarthy also was reported to have told a reporter that Lattimore had received instructions from four soviet agents landed by a soviet submarine, was this also true and confirmed in the investigation? Was Budenz the only witness against Lattimore and was Budenz's testimony under oath and did it convince anyone that Lattimore was an agent? What other evidence was used to prove Lattimore was an agent or even a communist?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Nice attempt at a strawman, but since being a Communist was not and still isn't a crime, demanding to know about a trial for it is disingenuous.
> 
> As to evidence, Louis Budenz, a member of the Communist Party USA Politburo testified that Lattimore was handpicked by Comintern (and if you ask me what that is, you will earn yourself an automatic ignore as a dumbfuck who has no business discussing this topic) to engage in propaganda on behalf of the Soviet Union.  Soviet diplomats identified Lattimore to the FBI as an agent of the Soviet Union.  The McCarran Committee called him a "conscious articulate instrument of the Soviet conspiracy" after investigating him, and Lattimore was indicted for perjury over his testimony before that committee.  Lattimore was instrumental in getting people jobs in government service who were later found to be Soviet operatives.
> 
> Basically, if Owen Lattimore wasn't an operative of the Soviet Union, then he was an idiot for working for them for free instead of getting paid.
Click to expand...


You failed to mention that the perjury charges against Lattimore were dropped.


----------



## Gadawg73

All this comes from Ann Coulter's book _Treason_.
Just like McCarthy Coulter demonizes anyone that would dare disagree with her and her analysis that McCarthy was an American hero. Everyone that disagrees with her is labeled "a traitor".
All through the book Coulter uses McCArthy as her latest role model.
Amazing any sane American would fall for that.
She claims that anyone that does not come to the altar and worship McCarthy have supported fifty years of treason. 
Coulter twisted, slanted, distorted and lied about history when she smeared Truman in the book stating that Truman and General Marshall opposed Stalin because the Republicans won the mid term elections in 1946. Coulter claimed that both Truman and General Marshall fully supported all Soviet expansion after the war and the Soviet way of life before those elections.

Coulter is full of lies. I suggest everyone read this book as it full of nothing but myths, fables and lies to sell books.
Coulter paints McCarthy as a great man worthy of emulation. She states he is very smart, bright, witty, very warm hearted and this one was the kicker; she claims he was macho. She plays him to be the sincere farm boy decorated military veteran that saved the world exposing hundreds of Soviet spies currently working in American government.
And eventually his own party and President called him out.
McCarthy was brought down by himself at the televised hearings. American citizens are not dumbasses and it was his own party then that had enough of his lies. Grass roots support for his ouster ran his ass off. 
But go ahead and believe the Uncle Remus fairy tales Ann Coulter spins.


----------



## regent

The McCarthy period and McCarthyism should have been a learning experience for America, perhaps not for all the people but hopefully enough so that it doesn't happen again. Are we that fearful a people that we seem to be easily led into some type of Peter-Pan land? For better or worse Ike was the president and he should have taken the lead and he did not.


----------



## CrusaderFrank

If anything, McCarthy vastly understated both the extent to which the Democrat Administrations took their marching orders from Moscow and the untold human misery, suffering and mass murder the Stalin and Mao regimes would inflict on the planet


----------



## regent

CrusaderFrank said:


> If anything, McCarthy vastly understated both the extent to which the Democrat Administrations took their marching orders from Moscow and the untold human misery, suffering and mass murder the Stalin and Mao regimes would inflict on the planet



So why did Moscow send Truman marching orders to send American troops to defend South Korea? Sure doesn't make sense. Why didn't Moscow just tell Truman to lay low and let North Korea take over South Korea?


----------



## numan

regent said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> If anything, McCarthy vastly understated both the extent to which the Democrat Administrations took their marching orders from Moscow and the untold human misery, suffering and mass murder the Stalin and Mao regimes would inflict on the planet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So why did Moscow send Truman marching orders to send American troops to defend South Korea? Sure doesn't make sense. Why didn't Moscow just tell Truman to lay low and let North Korea take over South Korea?
Click to expand...

That question just shows how naive people like you are.

World War II turned all of the "victors" into totalitarian societies -- three main world dictatorships: Russia, China and the USA -- just as described  in George Orwell's classic work, *1984*. He deliberately reversed the last two digits of the title -- 1984 meant the situation as he saw it in _1948_: the three great powers of Eurasia, East Asia and Oceania (the USA being the controlling power of Oceania). 

As Adolph Hitler so percipiently remarked, 

*"The great strength of the totalitarian state is that it forces those who fear it to imitate it."*

Hitler destroyed himself and his totalitarian state, but he achieved his major goal to spread totalitarianism over the whole Earth.

The reason so many naive people don't recognize the USA as a totalitarian state is that the USA was and is the most advanced totalitarian state, with the most incredibly efficient interlocking structure of "education", brainwashing and social control that the world has ever seen.

Only an incompetent totalitarianism employs terror: modern, efficient McFascism serves you with a smile and makes you love your slavery.

So, to answer your naive question, Russia did not control the USA; Russia, China and the USA were competing totalitarian states. It is natural for competing totalitarian states to oppose each other, since they want to gain the maximum advantages possible for their respective ruling classes.
.


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## Political Junky

McCarthy died a drunk at 48 of liver disease.


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## Gadawg73

CrusaderFrank said:


> If anything, McCarthy vastly understated both the extent to which the Democrat Administrations took their marching orders from Moscow and the untold human misery, suffering and mass murder the Stalin and Mao regimes would inflict on the planet



Truman, Johnson and Kennedy administrations took their "marching orders from Moscow".



Truman supported the South Koreans and fought off waves of Soviet supported Chinese and S. Korean troops and ran their commie asses back. The Soviets provided MIG 15 aircraft.
Truman never took any marching orders from the Soviets.
He backed the Berlin Air Lift and ordered it.
Kennedy backed Khruschev down and they removed the missles from Cuba.
Kennedy never took any marching orders from the Soviets.
Johnson escalated the war in Viet Nam.
He damn sure did not take any marching orders from the Soviets.
FDR cooperated with the Soviets as they did most of the dirty work defeating the Nazis in Europe. 
The hilarious part of this "commies at State Dept" nonsense is that as early as 1933 ALMOST EVERYONE that was a career officer in the State Dept. they resisted FDR's overtures to the Soviets every inch of the way. As early as his first year in office FDR played that Moscow would help him defeat any potential wars with Germany and Japan. 
And he was right. 
In 1945 things changed at his death. LONG BEFORE the McCArthy era and the work had already been done by the late 40s running off, exposing and killing off most all of spies here and abroad that had little if any influences here.

NO Democratic administration took their marching orders from Moscow. 
Where do you come up with these myths?


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## Toro

Gadawg73 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> 
> If anything, McCarthy vastly understated both the extent to which the Democrat Administrations took their marching orders from Moscow and the untold human misery, suffering and mass murder the Stalin and Mao regimes would inflict on the planet
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Truman, Johnson and Kennedy administrations took their "marching orders from Moscow".
> 
> 
> 
> Truman supported the South Koreans and fought off waves of Soviet supported Chinese and S. Korean troops and ran their commie asses back. The Soviets provided MIG 15 aircraft.
> Truman never took any marching orders from the Soviets.
> He backed the Berlin Air Lift and ordered it.
> Kennedy backed Khruschev down and they removed the missles from Cuba.
> Kennedy never took any marching orders from the Soviets.
> Johnson escalated the war in Viet Nam.
> He damn sure did not take any marching orders from the Soviets.
> FDR cooperated with the Soviets as they did most of the dirty work defeating the Nazis in Europe.
> The hilarious part of this "commies at State Dept" nonsense is that as early as 1933 ALMOST EVERYONE that was a career officer in the State Dept. they resisted FDR's overtures to the Soviets every inch of the way. As early as his first year in office FDR played that Moscow would help him defeat any potential wars with Germany and Japan.
> And he was right.
> In 1945 things changed at his death. LONG BEFORE the McCArthy era and the work had already been done by the late 40s running off, exposing and killing off most all of spies here and abroad that had little if any influences here.
> 
> NO Democratic administration took their marching orders from Moscow.
> Where do you come up with these myths?
Click to expand...


The Cuban Missile Crisis never really happened.  It's a myth created by the Lame Stream Media.


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