# The end of the autism/vaccine debate?



## geauxtohell (Sep 7, 2010)

> It's no wonder when the Internet and television airwaves are full of personal stories that raise a question about the link. But the study that started the autism vaccine scare was recently retracted by the prestigious journal that published it 12 years ago, and the lead researcher had his medical license pulled.





> Since that time, 18 controlled epidemiological studies have investigated the possible connection between autism and vaccines, and "they have all come back showing the same thing," says Alison Singer, founder and president of the Autism Science Foundation, and a mother of a 13-year-old with autism. "There is no link between vaccines and autism."
> 
> Those studies took up two primary theories: Wakefield's (lead publisher in the MMR/Autism study) hypothesis that the MMR vaccine was linked to autism, and another that thimerosal, a mercury-containing preservative found in some vaccines, was the culprit.
> 
> ...



The end of the autism/vaccine debate? - CNN.com

Discuss


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## L.K.Eder (Sep 7, 2010)

it will never end.


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## CrusaderFrank (Sep 7, 2010)

But the Amish...


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## geauxtohell (Sep 7, 2010)

CrusaderFrank said:


> But the Amish...



Are vaccinated.


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## eots (Sep 7, 2010)

geauxtohell said:


> > It's no wonder when the Internet and television airwaves are full of personal stories that raise a question about the link. But the study that started the autism vaccine scare was recently retracted by the prestigious journal that published it 12 years ago, and the lead researcher had his medical license pulled.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Feds admit vaccine
'aggravated' autism*


© 2010 WorldNetDaily

David Kirby

The federal government continues to deny a link between vaccines and autism, but the U.S. Court of Federal Claims has ruled in favor of a child alleged to have regressed into autism as a result of vaccinations.

Several of the vaccinations included the controversial mercury-based preservative thimerosal, points out the National Autism Association, which sees the ruling as confirmation of the claims of many parents.

"This case echoes the stories of thousands of children across the country," said NAA President Wendy Fournier. "With almost 5,000 similar cases pending in vaccine court, we are confident that this is just the first of many that will confirm what we have believed for so long &#8211; vaccines can and do cause children to regress into autism."

Fournier called on the Centers for Disease Control "to acknowledge that the current vaccine schedule is not safe for every child and as with the administration of any medicine, individual risks and susceptibilities must be considered for each patient

Feds admit vaccine 'aggravated' autism


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## xotoxi (Sep 7, 2010)

eots said:


> © 2010 WorldNetDaily


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## xotoxi (Sep 7, 2010)

I almost initially didn't open this thread because I glanced at the author and read "geauxtohell" as "gautama".

Might consider changing your name to "GTHell"


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## CrusaderFrank (Sep 7, 2010)

geauxtohell said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> > But the Amish...
> ...



Some are, most ain't.


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## eots (Sep 7, 2010)

xotoxi said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > © 2010 WorldNetDaily



Are you implying thus court case did not take place as reported ? because if you are you are incorrect


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## eots (Sep 7, 2010)

David Kirby: Government Concedes Vaccine-Autism Case in Federal ...
25 Feb 2008 ... The claim, one of 4900 autism cases currently pending in Federal "Vaccine Court," was conceded by US Assistant Attorney General Peter ...
David Kirby: Government Concedes Vaccine-Autism Case in Federal Court - Now What? -

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrIM2hwrLoc]YouTube - Robert Kennedy on the Vaccine Autism Coverup[/ame]


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## strollingbones (Sep 7, 2010)

Commentators also argue that the rates of autism are low in the Amish community. Again, this is not true. Pediatricians who work with the Amish community report that members seek out treatment for their children for symptoms that resemble autism or can easily be diagnosed as a form of autism. Dr. Kevin Strauss is a pediatrician at the Clinic For Special Children in Lancaster County. Mr. Strauss states, "The idea that the Amish do not vaccinate their children is untrue." Dr. Strauss also states, "We see autistic behaviors along with seizure disorders or mental retardation or a genetic disorder, where the autism is part of a more complicated clinical spectrum.&#8221;

Dr. Stauss and Dr. D. Holmes Norton are the authors of a study published in the New England Journal of Medicine that studoes of Old Order Amish children. The authors have, " identified the genetic mutation that causes a previously unknown disorder, with seizures that progress to autism and retardation."

The Amish are members of a very closed community that cannot be taken as representative of the community at large. Many members marry inside of the group. As a result, members often carry a shared gene that does not resemble that of their fellow Americans. Common ailments among the Amish include Maple Syrup Urine Disease and Crigler-Najjar Syndrome. These disorders are found very rarely found in the general population.

Autism among the Amish is common. The autism vaccinate their children with rates that are comparable to the rate found in the general population. Vaccinations (or lack of vaccination) among the Amish do not tell us anything about the origins or causes of autism.



Read more at Suite101: Autism Among the Amish: A Vaccination Myth Deconstructed Autism Among the Amish: A Vaccination Myth Deconstructed

here's a link for ya frank...before you let your ass overide your mouth


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## eots (Sep 7, 2010)

strollingbones said:


> Commentators also argue that the rates of autism are low in the Amish community. Again, this is not true. Pediatricians who work with the Amish community report that members seek out treatment for their children for symptoms that resemble autism or can easily be diagnosed as a form of autism. Dr. Kevin Strauss is a pediatrician at the Clinic For Special Children in Lancaster County. Mr. Strauss states, "The idea that the Amish do not vaccinate their children is untrue." Dr. Strauss also states, "We see autistic behaviors along with seizure disorders or mental retardation or a genetic disorder, where the autism is part of a more complicated clinical spectrum.
> 
> Dr. Stauss and Dr. D. Holmes Norton are the authors of a study published in the New England Journal of Medicine that studoes of Old Order Amish children. The authors have, " identified the genetic mutation that causes a previously unknown disorder, with seizures that progress to autism and retardation."
> 
> ...



IT IS CALLED TOBACCO SCIENCE

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txYH8RCC-Qk&feature=related]YouTube - Tobacco Industry Statements[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWuf2iJUoAo]YouTube - The Formation of the TIRC Timothy Hartnett[/ame]


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## xotoxi (Sep 7, 2010)

eots said:


> xotoxi said:
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I just laugh whenever someone quotes WND.


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## eots (Sep 7, 2010)

xotoxi said:


> eots said:
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> > xotoxi said:
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so then you concede the fact of this court ruling as reported


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## Oddball (Sep 7, 2010)

> The end of the autism/vaccine debate?


Good luck on that one.

After all, the WHO/EPA crooks who invented the bogus numbers that "proved" 2nd hand tobacco smoke was a health risk are still having that faked data cited as though it's true.


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## JWBooth (Sep 7, 2010)

Oddball said:


> > The end of the autism/vaccine debate?
> 
> 
> Good luck on that one.
> ...



Same folks that pushed the world wide pandemic H1N1/Swine Flu scare that was much ado about nothing.  No wonder so many doubt these experts whey they come out with their "there is no evidence that ________ vaccine is linked to..." statements/data.


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## geauxtohell (Sep 8, 2010)

xotoxi said:


> I almost initially didn't open this thread because I glanced at the author and read "geauxtohell" as "gautama".
> 
> Might consider changing your name to "GTHell"



I was here first.

Fuck him.


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## CrusaderFrank (Sep 8, 2010)

Are there any other unvaccinated populations in the world?


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## SmarterThanHick (Sep 15, 2010)

Oddball said:


> After all, the WHO/EPA crooks who invented the bogus numbers that "proved" 2nd hand tobacco smoke was a health risk are still having that faked data cited as though it's true.


2nd hand tobacco smoke IS a health risk.  It is proven that kids in homes with smokers have increased trips to the doctor, and specifically increased ear infections.  



JWBooth said:


> Same folks that pushed the world wide pandemic H1N1/Swine Flu scare that was much ado about nothing.  No wonder so many doubt these experts whey they come out with their "there is no evidence that ________ vaccine is linked to..." statements/data.


It turned out to be not as bad as it originally thought.  Another flu strain in question has a 60% mortality rate, and luckily this swine flu didn't.  Don't compare "we don't know what will happen but let's prepare for bad" with "we know exactly what happens here, let's react accordingly".



eots said:


> xotoxi said:
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> > eots said:
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I think it's safe to concede that courts don't practice evidence based medical decision making.  In science you look at all the data, so if a thousand samples say "yes" and 3 say "no", you go with "yes".  In a court, you have one expert witness on each side of the case, meaning those thousand samples get reduced to the same one "yes" as the one "no" witness.


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## Oddball (Sep 15, 2010)

SmarterThanHick said:


> Oddball said:
> 
> 
> > After all, the WHO/EPA crooks who invented the bogus numbers that "proved" 2nd hand tobacco smoke was a health risk are still having that faked data cited as though it's true.
> ...


First off, what's your source?

Second of all, you're talking about chiiilllldrreeennnn, not adults.

Lastly, why is it that the WHO and EPA skewed their test criteria and faked their data, only admitting so so after getting caught?


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## Si modo (Sep 15, 2010)

Oddball said:


> SmarterThanHick said:
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> > Oddball said:
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## SmarterThanHick (Sep 15, 2010)

Oddball said:


> First off, what's your source?
> 
> Second of all, you're talking about chiiilllldrreeennnn, not adults.
> 
> Lastly, why is it that the WHO and EPA skewed their test criteria and faked their data, only admitting so so after getting caught?



second hand smoke - PubMed result

As for your second question: don't care.  Perhaps this may help you find the answers I don't much care about: Passive smoking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Oddball (Sep 16, 2010)

Neither Wiki nor a .gov site have any credibility whatsoever.

Try again.


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## SmarterThanHick (Sep 16, 2010)

that .gov site is just a search engine, linking to thousands of independently scrutinized peer reviewed journals from legitimate scientific works, without exclusion, regardless of the underlying message.  Or do you only take the word of crackpot "researchers" who come up with conclusions from their basements with a sample size of 2?


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## Barb (Sep 16, 2010)

The pharma lobby can get any of their scientists to write up whatever they want, and every supporting official greased with enough money to back them. I call bullshit! 
I witnessed first hand what happened after my son, born with an APGAR score of ten, got 3 in one day (as my objections were dismissed as ignorant or molly coddling by the public health nurse). He developed behavior problems, was speech delayed, and had troubles with reading growing up. He's overcome everything, but it didn't have to be so hard for him, and I blame the mercury he was needlessly poisoned with. 
One shot containing thimerosal (a preservative used solely to save the drug manufacturers money in packaging, as it would be completely unneeded if packaged in single shot doses) has more mercury than adults are advised to consume through the consumption of fish in any given week. The smaller the child, the smaller the liver, and the greater the risk. And it isn't just autism, it is neurological problems up to and including autism.


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## midcan5 (Sep 16, 2010)

Arguments about second hand smoke are downright ridiculous, anyone remember when trains had a smoking car?  It was like fog it got so heavy, and if you think inhaling smoke has no effect, smoke on. second hand smoke and asthma - Google News


But serious question, why is autism increasing? Theories look at: later marriages, both sexes, toxins in the air, additives in foods, fire proofing in numerous products?  

Back in the fifties we had families with lots of kids, but I never heard of autism then, most our friends (boomers) married young, no autism. Today I have seen several cases, a few in extended family, why?


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## SmarterThanHick (Sep 16, 2010)

Barb said:


> The pharma lobby can get any of their scientists to write up whatever they want, and every supporting official greased with enough money to back them. I call bullshit!
> I witnessed first hand what happened after my son, born with an APGAR score of ten, got 3 in one day (as my objections were dismissed as ignorant or molly coddling by the public health nurse). He developed behavior problems, was speech delayed, and had troubles with reading growing up. He's overcome everything, but it didn't have to be so hard for him, and I blame the mercury he was needlessly poisoned with.
> One shot containing thimerosal (a preservative used solely to save the drug manufacturers money in packaging, as it would be completely unneeded if packaged in single shot doses) has more mercury than adults are advised to consume through the consumption of fish in any given week. The smaller the child, the smaller the liver, and the greater the risk. And it isn't just autism, it is neurological problems up to and including autism.



And this is the unfortunate ignorance of uneducated Americans when it comes to scientific reasoning.  Allow me to provide an example.  Let's say that a man eats eggs every weekend.  Shortly after eating his eggs, he gets sick.  What does that say about the eggs?  ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.  Now if EVERYONE in the area got sick in the same manner after eating eggs, then it's much safer to conclude the eggs had something to do with it.  So what's the difference?  The sample size.  If the sample size is ONE, no conclusions about the cause can really be made.  Maybe it was the eggs, or maybe it was the raw chicken he likes to eat.  The point is this: people get sick.  We do.  All the time, actually.  And we love to blame someone for it.  

So how do we distinguish whether its the proverbial egg or the chicken?  We look at loads of people who also ate the eggs.  If only 5 in 100,000 got sick after eating the eggs, we can conclude the eggs are safe.  If 85,000 people in 100,000 get sick, we can conclude the eggs are contaminated.

So yes, it's unfortunate your kid has slowed behavioral growth.  But it happens.  All the time.  And we still want to blame someone for it, regardless of whether there is someone to blame or not.  You have a sample size of ONE.  You are in no position to evaluate the risk to the general population.  Those who HAVE taken large sample sizes of children who have and have not gotten vaccinated have found beyond any reasonable doubt that autism still pops up regardless of vaccination status, with no higher incidence if vaccinated.

Lastly: this is not the pharma lobby drumming up pocketed scientists.  These are pediatricians and academic researchers.


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## SmarterThanHick (Sep 16, 2010)

midcan5 said:


> Arguments about second hand smoke are downright ridiculous, anyone remember when trains had a smoking car?  It was like fog it got so heavy, and if you think inhaling smoke has no effect, smoke on. second hand smoke and asthma - Google News
> 
> 
> But serious question, why is autism increasing? Theories look at: later marriages, both sexes, toxins in the air, additives in foods, fire proofing in numerous products?
> ...


Haha, yeah lots of smoke back then.  Thankfully we get to live twice as long now!

But you bring up a good question: why now?  Well the first big reason is simply that we're identifying a lot more of it.  People in the old days who had autism, especially the lighter versions of it, could have gone their entire lives without actually seeing that diagnosis.  They were simply referred to as odd or retarded, and no one really thought to go much more into it.  

With that being said, it is still believed that numbers are climbing a bit, once the lapse in diagnosis is accounted for.  People theorize the cause of it all the time, but no one study has found a single answer yet.  We've found a lot of things that DON'T cause it, such as vaccines, but there's no magic bullet yet.  The same can be true about a lot of other diseases.


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## uscitizen (Sep 16, 2010)

Oddball said:


> Neither Wiki nor a .gov site have any credibility whatsoever.
> 
> Try again.



Paranoid to the point of impotence?


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## Oddball (Sep 16, 2010)

SmarterThanHick said:


> that .gov site is just a search engine, linking to thousands of independently scrutinized peer reviewed journals from legitimate scientific works, without exclusion, regardless of the underlying message.  Or do you only take the word of crackpot "researchers" who come up with conclusions from their basements with a sample size of 2?


I certainly don't trust the site of the same people who funded the faked data that came from EPA.


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## uscitizen (Sep 16, 2010)

Oddball said:


> SmarterThanHick said:
> 
> 
> > that .gov site is just a search engine, linking to thousands of independently scrutinized peer reviewed journals from legitimate scientific works, without exclusion, regardless of the underlying message.  Or do you only take the word of crackpot "researchers" who come up with conclusions from their basements with a sample size of 2?
> ...



Yeah I have trouble believing the Bush crowd as well.


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## eots (Sep 16, 2010)

*Vaccine-Autism Court Award of $1.5M to Poling Famil*y

On the heels of a federal appeals court ruling that denied an association between autism and vaccines, the family of nine-year-old Hannah Poling will receive more than $1.5 million to provide for her care for the rest of her life, to compensate for lost earnings, and for pain and suffering for the first year. Hannah developed autism after receiving vaccinations for nine diseases during one visit to her doctor.




Vaccine-Autism Court Award of $1.5M to Poling Family


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## SmarterThanHick (Sep 16, 2010)

Oddball said:


> SmarterThanHick said:
> 
> 
> > that .gov site is just a search engine, linking to thousands of independently scrutinized peer reviewed journals from legitimate scientific works, without exclusion, regardless of the underlying message.  Or do you only take the word of crackpot "researchers" who come up with conclusions from their basements with a sample size of 2?
> ...


Use google if you don't trust the search engine I provided.  Here's the same search on Google Scholar: autism and vaccines - Google Scholar

Your pick.  The scientists and research labs are still independent.  So if you disagree with unbiased researchers, and don't even believe the original journal that printed there might be an association between the two has since RETRACTED the article, what would you believe?  Seems like the answer is "nothing".




eots said:


> *Vaccine-Autism Court Award of $1.5M to Poling Famil*y
> 
> On the heels of a federal appeals court ruling that denied an association between autism and vaccines, the family of nine-year-old Hannah Poling will receive more than $1.5 million to provide for her care for the rest of her life, to compensate for lost earnings, and for pain and suffering for the first year. Hannah developed autism after receiving vaccinations for nine diseases during one visit to her doctor.
> 
> ...


Lucky for us, science doesn't depend on court cases.  While you did a good job of copying and pasting this article with a 2010 date, this was actually from a few years ago, before the vaccine issue was debunked.  If you read the article, you should also note she had a really nasty mitochondrial disorder, and the parents were looking for someone to blame.  

The fact still remains that every Children's Hospital in this country, staffed with some of the most highly trained and educated doctors, endorse childhood vaccination.  Once again, all the smart people are telling you something here.


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## Barb (Sep 16, 2010)

SmarterThanHick said:


> Barb said:
> 
> 
> > The pharma lobby can get any of their scientists to write up whatever they want, and every supporting official greased with enough money to back them. I call bullshit!
> ...



I'm far from uneducated, and answer one very simple question: Is Mercury a toxic substance? 

Mercury Poisoning Causes, Symptoms, and Prevention on MedicineNet.com 



> Health effects of mercury.
> Mercury exposure at high levels can harm the  brain, heart, kidneys, lungs, and immune system of people of all ages. Research shows that most people's fish consumption does not cause a health concern. However, it has been demonstrated that high levels of methylmercury in the bloodstream of unborn babies and young children may harm the developing nervous system, making the child less able to think and learn. More information



Thimerosal in Vaccines


> In its report of October 1, 2001, the IOM's Immunization Safety Review Committee concluded that the evidence was inadequate to either accept *or reject* a causal relationship between thimerosal exposure from childhood vaccines and the neurodevelopmental disorders of autism, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), and speech or language delay. Additional studies were needed to establish or reject a causal relationship. The Committee did conclude that the hypothesis that exposure to thimerosal-containing vaccines could be associated with neurodevelopmental disorders was biologically plausible.
> 
> The Committee believed that the effort to remove thimerosal from vaccines was *"a prudent measure in support of the public health goal to reduce mercury exposure of infants and children as much as possible.*" Furthermore, in this regard, the Committee urged that "full consideration be given to removing thimerosal from any biological product to which infants, children, and pregnant women are exposed."


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## SmarterThanHick (Sep 16, 2010)

Barb said:


> I'm far from uneducated, and answer one very simple question: Is Mercury a toxic substance?
> 
> Mercury Poisoning Causes, Symptoms, and Prevention on MedicineNet.com


Answer one very simple question: Is Tylenol a toxic substance?
Tylenol (acetaminophen) Liver Damage Causes, Symptoms, Treatment, and Diagnosis by MedicineNet.com

Answer one very simple question: Is Vitamin A a toxic substance?
Vitamin A Toxicity: eMedicine Endocrinology

Answer one very simple question: is Fluoride a toxic substance?
Fluoride poisoning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Answer one very simple question: is Tuna a toxic substance?
Mercury in Tuna Sushi Higher at Restaurants than Groceries | LiveScience

Answer one very simple question: is Thimerosal a toxic substance in minuscule amounts?
CDC - Thimerosal FAQs -Vaccine Safety

Point being: everything is bad at large levels.  I'd be more worried about the mercury found in tuna more than thimerasol, the latter of which gets broken down and eliminated from the body.

Perhaps "undereducated" would have been more accurate.



Barb said:


> Thimerosal in Vaccines
> 
> 
> > In its report of October 1, 2001, the IOM's Immunization Safety Review Committee concluded that the evidence was inadequate to either accept *or reject* a causal relationship between thimerosal exposure from childhood vaccines and the neurodevelopmental disorders of autism, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), and speech or language delay. Additional studies were needed to establish or reject a causal relationship. The Committee did conclude that the hypothesis that exposure to thimerosal-containing vaccines could be associated with neurodevelopmental disorders was biologically plausible.
> ...


2001 you say?!  Well I suppose if we've learned nothing in the last decade, you may have....  nothing.  Honestly look at that quote.  There was concern.  They did the right thing by removing it first and asking questions later.  But the questions HAVE been asked, and answered, since 2001.  Caution does not warrant ill-conceived conclusions that have already been shot down thoroughly.


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## geauxtohell (Sep 17, 2010)

Oddball said:


> Neither Wiki nor a .gov site have any credibility whatsoever.
> 
> Try again.



What about a study from Canada?



> The study from the University of Calgary in Canada checked 625 first grade students at 36 Calgary schools. Nearly a quarter of the children had a history of middle ear infections.
> 
> But children who lived in homes where there were two or more cigarette smokers during the first three years of life had an 85 percent higher than normal history of persistent or recurrent middle ear infections, the report said.



Ear infections in children linked to secondhand smoke - CNN


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## Barb (Sep 17, 2010)

> Answer one very simple question: Is Tylenol a toxic substance?
> Tylenol (acetaminophen) Liver Damage Causes, Symptoms, Treatment, and Diagnosis by MedicineNet.com
> 
> Answer one very simple question: Is Vitamin A a toxic substance?
> ...



Only one of the things on the list above is found in childhood vaccinations, and that inclusion is SOLELY to save money by packaging them in mult-dose containers rather than single dose containers. 

The same study you poohed as outdated is listed in the article with more up to date studies.


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## SmarterThanHick (Sep 17, 2010)

Barb said:


> > Answer one very simple question: Is Tylenol a toxic substance?
> > Tylenol (acetaminophen) Liver Damage Causes, Symptoms, Treatment, and Diagnosis by MedicineNet.com
> >
> > Answer one very simple question: Is Vitamin A a toxic substance?
> ...


Yes.  The others in that list are in the drinking water, in everyday vitamins, and found in the food we eat.  Once again I find myself asking: What's your point?

Every recent study and every doctor at every children's hospital across the country knows beyond any doubt that there is no increased risk of autism from vaccination for the general population.  You want to pull a rare genetic mitochondrial disease which needed any of a million exacerbating factors to trigger it as the cause to remove it entirely?  Perhaps you have forgotten that measles, mumps, rubella, H.flu, varicella, tetanus, diptheria, polio, strep.pneumo, rotavirus, hepatitis A/B, the common flu, HPV, meningitis, and pertussus are a BIT more common than rare genetic mitochondrial diseases?  What do you think the risk-benefit analysis of your ignorance to my evidence would be?

If you're so worried, feel free to ask your doctor for single dose vial vaccinations.  They exist.


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## Barb (Sep 17, 2010)

SmarterThanHick said:


> Barb said:
> 
> 
> > > Answer one very simple question: Is Tylenol a toxic substance?
> ...



Why did you truncate my post? It wasn't that long. The requirement for the mercury laced preservative 





> is SOLELY to save money by packaging them in mult-dose containers rather than single dose containers. The same study you poohed as outdated is listed in the article with more up to date studies.


 My kids are grown now, so for me, it isn't an issue beyond making sure their kids don't someday have to go through the same things. Adding vaccinations to the schedule adds exposure incidents to the mercury (because it is still used, even though its under a different name), and public health nurses and doctors need to be aware that "catching up" missed shots (missed because of childhood colds, ear infections etc...) in a single day (my son got 3) increases risk.


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## SmarterThanHick (Sep 17, 2010)

Which study shows that?  This should be interesting.


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## Barb (Sep 17, 2010)

SmarterThanHick said:


> Which study shows that?  This should be interesting.



Mercury Poisoning Symptoms, Causes, Treatment - What about thimerosal in vaccines on MedicineNet

One of the later citations on this list shows a date of 2008. You weed through it.

You know, I stated my case, and I believe in my experience as well as my research; not only what authorities tell me, but what I've seen with my own eyes. 

You seem to have an attachment to the last word on this subject, and an emotional need to be "right." Have at it. I simply disagree with your conclusions. Its all good.


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## SmarterThanHick (Sep 18, 2010)

Ah I see.  You make the claim but I need to do your research on it?  Well, I looked at your site, which itself lists no study on it.  It had a little section near the top of the page on thimerosal.  It's only mention was to see other sites that have information on it.  And if you actually click on one of the links they provide? Oh look at that! It's the website I gave you before!  It states such things as "various mercury guidelines are based on epidemiological and laboratory studies of methyl mercury, whereas thimerosal is a derivative of ethyl mercury" and "they are different chemical entities - ethyl- versus methylmercury - different toxicological profiles are expected".

So I ask you for a single study which supports any part of your claim, and you still can't provide one.  The CLOSEST you can do is point to a similar yet different compound that has an atom in common.  Hey maybe I should start telling people air is toxic because carbon dioxide LOOKS similar to carbon MONoxide.  Maybe ethyl alcohol really does cause blindness because METHYL alcohol does?

Once again point being: you're comparing ethylmercury and methylmercury as identical, when they are just as different as ethyl and methyl alcohol: NOT THE SAME.  Let me know if you actually find that study.  I won't be holding my breath though.


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## geauxtohell (Sep 18, 2010)

9th baby in California dies from whooping cough - CNN.com



> As of Tuesday, the state has recorded more illnesses due to whooping cough -- 4,017 -- than in any year since 1955, the department said......
> 
> Whooping cough was declared an epidemic in California in June. Peaks in cases of the highly contagious disease cycle every two to five years. California saw its last peak in 2005, with 3,182 cases, according to state health officials.
> 
> ...


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## geauxtohell (Sep 18, 2010)

Barb said:


> SmarterThanHick said:
> 
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> > Barb said:
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It would be nice if it was as simple as "mercury causes autism", because that would be an easy fix.

It's not.  It's been extensively studied.  When the first study came out that suggested there might be a link and that vaccines should be spaced out, it was quickly disproven and then, in the past year, it was shown to be a complete sham and the author lost his license to practice medicine.  Yet, the myth still persists.


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## geauxtohell (Sep 18, 2010)

Barb said:


> SmarterThanHick said:
> 
> 
> > Which study shows that?  This should be interesting.
> ...



And this is the basic problem behind this issue.  All the evidence based medicine in the world is trumped by a single anecdote.  

People are free to do what they want, but don't act like it's supported by any sort of data.  It is not.

It only becomes tragic when kids start to suffer (i.e. from pertussis) from pathologies that are easily avoided by a vaccine because their parents have been mis-informed by ignorant or dishonest hucksters.


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## Charles_Main (Sep 18, 2010)

geauxtohell said:


> > It's no wonder when the Internet and television airwaves are full of personal stories that raise a question about the link. But the study that started the autism vaccine scare was recently retracted by the prestigious journal that published it 12 years ago, and the lead researcher had his medical license pulled.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The most ridicules thing about this whole debate. Is even if the connection was proven. It is still such a small % that you have a higher risk for your kid to DIE from one of the things he was not vaccinated for than them getting autism in most cases. Also major strides are being made in treating autism. What would you rather have, an autistic child, or a society with Small pox, and other problems because to many people stopped getting shots?


----------



## geauxtohell (Sep 18, 2010)

Charles_Main said:


> geauxtohell said:
> 
> 
> > > It's no wonder when the Internet and television airwaves are full of personal stories that raise a question about the link. But the study that started the autism vaccine scare was recently retracted by the prestigious journal that published it 12 years ago, and the lead researcher had his medical license pulled.
> ...



Even if there were a link (which there is not), the thought of my kid getting intubated or trached because they got epiglottitis from HiB would far outweigh any concerns about autism.


----------



## Father Time (Sep 18, 2010)

Charles_Main said:


> geauxtohell said:
> 
> 
> > > It's no wonder when the Internet and television airwaves are full of personal stories that raise a question about the link. But the study that started the autism vaccine scare was recently retracted by the prestigious journal that published it 12 years ago, and the lead researcher had his medical license pulled.
> ...



[youtube]RfdZTZQvuCo[/youtube]


----------



## Againsheila (Sep 18, 2010)

geauxtohell said:


> > It's no wonder when the Internet and television airwaves are full of personal stories that raise a question about the link. But the study that started the autism vaccine scare was recently retracted by the prestigious journal that published it 12 years ago, and the lead researcher had his medical license pulled.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If the vaccines have nothing to do with autism, why the rider attached to the Patriot Act at the last minuted by a senator who then retired, that protects Ely Lily, the makers of thermerosal from being sued specifically for causing autism?

Why do the professionals in the business wait until their kids are 3 to get them vaccinated?  

Why don't they tell us this stuff before the vaccines?


----------



## geauxtohell (Sep 18, 2010)

Againsheila said:


> If the vaccines have nothing to do with autism, why the rider attached to the Patriot Act at the last minuted by a senator who then retired, that protects Ely Lily, the makers of thermerosal from being sued specifically for causing autism?
> 
> Why do the professionals in the business wait until their kids are 3 to get them vaccinated?
> 
> Why don't they tell us this stuff before the vaccines?



Because, as has been demonstrated in the civil courts and the courts of public opinion, even if something has been 100% disproven by science, you can still lose a lawsuit over it and people will still believe that they know better.  

What professionals wait until their kids are 3 to get them vaccinated?


----------



## Againsheila (Sep 18, 2010)

geauxtohell said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> > If the vaccines have nothing to do with autism, why the rider attached to the Patriot Act at the last minuted by a senator who then retired, that protects Ely Lily, the makers of thermerosal from being sued specifically for causing autism?
> ...



The one's in the autism profession.....you ask them if they had their kids vaccinated and they say yes.  You go one step further and ask them when, and they say, they started vaccinating them at the age of 3.  Trust me, I've been to enough seminars to know this stuff.

Pregnant women are told not to eat fish because of mercury yet they inject that same mercury directly into the infants, even before they leave the hospital and then they wonder why autism now affects one on 166 people.


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## geauxtohell (Sep 18, 2010)

Againsheila said:


> The one's in the autism profession.....you ask them if they had their kids vaccinated and they say yes.  You go one step further and ask them when, and they say, they started vaccinating them at the age of 3.  Trust me, I've been to enough seminars to know this stuff.



What the hell is the "autism profession"?  As far as I can tell the "autism profession" is the people who make money of of selling people on junk science that vaccines cause autism.  

Furthermore, I not going to just "trust you" on anything.  Especially if you get your information from seminars.  



> Pregnant women are told not to eat fish because of mercury yet they inject that same mercury directly into the infants, even before they leave the hospital and then they wonder why autism now affects one on 166 people.



A.)  You think a developing fetus is the same as a neonate?  

B.)  Furthermore, the only vaccination a child gets before they leave the hospital is the HBV vaccine, which does not contain Thimerosol.  

Thimerosal in Vaccines

They most likely won't get any Thimerosol until 12 months of age when they get a flu vaccine.


----------



## Father Time (Sep 18, 2010)

Againsheila said:


> geauxtohell said:
> 
> 
> > Againsheila said:
> ...



That's not evidence mercury causes autism.


----------



## geauxtohell (Sep 18, 2010)

Father Time said:


> That's not evidence mercury causes autism.



There is evidence that mercury does NOT cause autism though. 

Study: No increased autism risk from mercury-based perservative in vaccines &#8211; The Chart - CNN.com Blogs

And for people who think the civil courts should decide the science behind this matter:

'Vaccines court' rejects mercury-autism link in 3 test cases - Los Angeles Times

Note the date.


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## SmarterThanHick (Sep 18, 2010)

Againsheila said:


> If the vaccines have nothing to do with autism, why the rider attached to the Patriot Act at the last minuted by a senator who then retired, that protects Ely Lily, the makers of thermerosal from being sued specifically for causing autism?
> 
> Why do the professionals in the business wait until their kids are 3 to get them vaccinated?
> 
> Why don't they tell us this stuff before the vaccines?


Because it DOESNT cause autism, yet people like you are dumb enough to sue people from legitimate medical practices anyway.  And since when and how could politics possibly prove this issue either way?

Which "professionals" wait till age 3?  Once again I find myself asking if you have a LICK of support to ANYTHING you think.  Ignorance isn't bliss in this case, it's hysterics and horrible diseases affecting our children.  




Againsheila said:


> The one's in the autism profession.....you ask them if they had their kids vaccinated and they say yes.  You go one step further and ask them when, and they say, they started vaccinating them at the age of 3.  Trust me, I've been to enough seminars to know this stuff.


Oh you've went to "seminars"?  Lead by who?  MDs or PhDs?  Or cooks with no degree selling you something?  Because I've attended lectures from the leading experts across the country, and have heard the exact opposite of your unsupported claims.



Againsheila said:


> Pregnant women are told not to eat fish because of mercury yet they inject that same mercury directly into the infants, even before they leave the hospital and then they wonder why autism now affects one on 166 people.


Actually, they do NOT inject the same mercury directly into infants OR vaccines.  As I just explained in a previous post, thimerosal is a completely different compound from your run of the mill Mercury poisoning.  One is the ethyl variety, and one is the methyl type.  Similarly, simple alcohol can be divided in the same manner.  Methyl alcohol makes people blind.  They are NOT the same.  Not by structure, not by profile, and not by any evidence we have documented.


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## geauxtohell (Sep 18, 2010)

SmarterThanHick said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> > If the vaccines have nothing to do with autism, why the rider attached to the Patriot Act at the last minuted by a senator who then retired, that protects Ely Lily, the makers of thermerosal from being sued specifically for causing autism?
> ...



Some people would benefit from a semester or two of organic chemistry.  Then they'd know that simply changing the charge of a compound by a factor of one greatly changes the way it interacts with the body.


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## Father Time (Sep 18, 2010)

Jenny McCarthy Body Count

Whooping cough is declared an epidemic in California


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## geauxtohell (Sep 18, 2010)

Father Time said:


> Jenny McCarthy Body Count
> 
> Whooping cough is declared an epidemic in California



Good.  It's about time people started calling charletons like McCarthy out.  

Simply "being a mother" isn't good enough here.


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## syrenn (Sep 18, 2010)

geauxtohell said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> > The one's in the autism profession.....you ask them if they had their kids vaccinated and they say yes.  You go one step further and ask them when, and they say, they started vaccinating them at the age of 3.  Trust me, I've been to enough seminars to know this stuff.
> ...



Both of her children have autism...mild to sever.  That is what she meant about being in the autism business.


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## Againsheila (Sep 18, 2010)

SmarterThanHick said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> > If the vaccines have nothing to do with autism, why the rider attached to the Patriot Act at the last minuted by a senator who then retired, that protects Ely Lily, the makers of thermerosal from being sued specifically for causing autism?
> ...



I have attended many seminars, almost all of which have lectures by doctors, psychiatrists, etc.  And yes, the people in the business will tell you on the books that it isn't the vaccines, but off the books, it's another story.  Let's face  it, our government wants our kids taking those vaccines and they will do all in the power to make sure that happens.  

I have two children on both ends of the autism spectrum and until the Patriot act, I didn't think it was the vaccines...but face it, we already have a law that requires those who bring nuisance lawsuits to pay for all the court costs, there was no excuse for that rider protecting Ely Lilly, unless they actually did cause autism and it wasn't a coincidence that the politician responsible retired right after.

You can believe as you wish, but you aren't dealing with autism on a day to day basis, you haven't studied it like I have and you didn't make the mistake of getting all the pertinent vaccines at once instead of one at a time.  I would have done things much differently if I had another chance.  Do I feel guilty? HELL YEAH!!!!!

As for those who claim that the vaccines don't give everyone Autism, smoking doesn't give everyone lung cancer but that doesn't mean it's not responsible for lung cancer.

I advise all new parents to wait until their children are 3, then get the vaccines one at a time.  Don't listen to people like Hick as they don't know what they are talking about.  Autism is a lifelong illness, there is no remission, there is no cure and you don't want that hanging over your head.


----------



## Charles_Main (Sep 19, 2010)

Againsheila said:


> SmarterThanHick said:
> 
> 
> > Againsheila said:
> ...



No offense man, But the fact that you have 2 kids with autism actually means you are rather biased on this subject, and may be letting emotion get in the way or reason. 

The fact is there have been multiple studies that all show no connection, and that People are now starting to suffer from and die from preventable Illnesses now, because less people are getting  vaccinated. 

best of luck to you and your family, Having had a scare with aspergers myself I really feel for you man. 

By the way have you watched the movie Temple Grandin? Not sure if that how you spell the last name.

Very inspiring movie.


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## Dante (Sep 19, 2010)

geauxtohell said:


> discuss



o k


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## geauxtohell (Sep 19, 2010)

Againsheila said:


> I have attended many seminars, almost all of which have lectures by doctors, psychiatrists, etc.  And yes, the people in the business will tell you on the books that it isn't the vaccines, but off the books, it's another story.  Let's face  it, our government wants our kids taking those vaccines and they will do all in the power to make sure that happens.
> 
> I have two children on both ends of the autism spectrum and until the Patriot act, I didn't think it was the vaccines...but face it, we already have a law that requires those who bring nuisance lawsuits to pay for all the court costs, there was no excuse for that rider protecting Ely Lilly, unless they actually did cause autism and it wasn't a coincidence that the politician responsible retired right after.
> 
> ...



The cigarette analogy isn't a good one.  While not everyone that smokes gets lung cancer, there is a definitive link between smoking and lung cancer.  There is absolutely no link between vaccines and autism.  

Their is also no "off book" advice on this.  No physician with a shred of integrity would tell someone to do something to their child that they thought was too unsafe to do to their own child.  The official word on this is via the American Association of Pediatrics and that vaccines are safe:

Facts for Parents About Vaccine Safety

Any contrary advice from any single or group of physicians is just noise that is their personal opinion, but is not scientifically supported.  When you speak of the "autism business", I suspect you are correct and people are making good money by chucking the standards of the profession out the window and hawking bad advice.

On the last, I can only find homeopathic and naturopathic "doctors" who wholesale advise against vaccinations.  Homeopaths and naturopaths are not considered to be physicians in any manner of the word by the medical establishment.  They do not have floor rights at any hospital and the degree is viewed as worthless.  They (or any MD, DO, or PhD) certainly can not support their beliefs through any scientific study.

Finally, while I am sorry that you have to experience two children with autism; that does not make you a medical professional nor does it qualify you to dispense medical advice.  It's a shame that you choose to do so, which is compounded by the fact that you are giving out bad advice.  Like Jenny McCarthy, you are part of the problem.  

By the time a child is three, they no longer would get the rotavirus or the HiB vaccines because their immune systems are sufficient to ward off these pathogens.  These bugs strike within the first year of life (especially HiB).  That means you've unnecessarily exposed children to two highly dangerous bugs for no good damn reason.  When a child gets epiglottitis from HiB, the first step in treatment is to have a crash cart and intubation team standing by (before you even look in their mouth if you are able to figure out the diagnosis without looking) as any contact (even breath) with the larynx causes a violent laryngiospasm that will cut off the airway and kill the child.  

You might know about living with autism from personal experience, but you know squat about the other diseases that could be prevented by vaccination.


----------



## SmarterThanHick (Sep 19, 2010)

Againsheila said:


> I have attended many seminars, almost all of which have lectures by doctors, psychiatrists, etc.  And yes, the people in the business will tell you on the books that it isn't the vaccines, but off the books, it's another story.  Let's face  it, our government wants our kids taking those vaccines and they will do all in the power to make sure that happens.


Oh? What kind of doctors?  I'm guessing they don't have MDs, because MDs have had their licenses revoked for spewing that kind of crap.  So tell me: how much did you PAY for these "seminars"?  Because it sounds to me like you first MADE a conclusion in your own mind to blame someone else for your children's problems, THEN found and paid some QUACK to tell you, without any scientific study whatsoever, WHAT YOU WANT TO BELIEVE.  

And as someone else mentioned: this is where the entirety of scientific knowledge can somehow be debunked by a single uneducated parent's situation.  

You didn't stop to think that since BOTH of your children have it, maybe it has something to do with GENETICS?!  No no, you're too busy looking to blame someone else for your life's problems.  

*You want to compare it to smoking?*  Let's do that.  This link shows 32,128 different articles and studies which show more cancer happens in smokers compared to matched non-smokers.  How many studies do you have that shows more autism occurs in vaccinated children?  Oh yes that's right: *NONE.*  And why not?  Any researcher who could prove it would make a lot of money and fame off it.  So there's incentive and yet not a SINGLE study shows it.

Oh but a few housewives can disprove all of science based on their own narrow vision of the world.  *PEOPLE GET SICK.*  It sucks, but it happens.  Deal with it.  Stop blaming others for it.

So these are the questions I have for you still:
1. How much did you pay for your "seminars"? 
2. What degrees did these "doctors" hold?
3. What incentive do you believe the government has to "lie" to everyone?
4. Why would doctors "lie" about when they give vaccines?
5. What evidence do you have that doctors give their children vaccines at different schedules?
6. What study do you have that shows vaccines cause autism?


Good luck with those.


----------



## Againsheila (Sep 19, 2010)

Charles_Main said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> > SmarterThanHick said:
> ...



No, I've not seen the movie.  I have read one of her books, many years ago.  Yes, I am biased when it comes to the subject.  And I didn't blame the vaccines until the Patriot Act.  I still advise people to get the vaccines, just not so early and one at a time.  If you can't stay home with your child until he or she is 3, or keep your child away from the public, maybe you shouldn't have a child.  

Did you know that when my youngest was born, the only cause of polio in our country was the oral polio vaccine?  Yep....and I couldn't find anybody that would give the killed vaccine.  I ended up finally going with the oral vaccine.  Now they give out the killed vaccine to everyone instead of the oral vaccine.  That's how ahead of things I am...I research, I checked into things and if I'd known those vaccines contained mercury, I wouldn't have give them to my kids and quite possibly they'd be "normal" now.  The only reason the mercury was in those vaccines was to preserve them, sorry, I'd rather have a fresh vaccine.


Our family doctor offered me some research material on Autism he'd gotten off of a website that is only available to doctors.  He then started to say that if I need anything explained .....then he said oh never-mind, you'll understand it.

At one point, he was referring his patients with special needs kids to me as I was a community liaison of Parents are Vital in Education.  I'm not stupid and I was very involved though I have become a little lazy of late on the subject.  I tried to get the teach program in our public schools when my son was in first grade, they finally instituted it when he was in 10th.  

The only school in this country that specialized in Autism is the Higashi school in Boston and many years ago tuition was $56,000 a year.  We didn't even make that much.  And that was for kids who commuted, not for kids who stayed at the school.

Oh, and btw, while this country prevents me from suing Ely Lilly, I could go to England and sue them and win, many have.  We aren't the only country that suffers from Autism.  Did you know there was no autism in China until we sent them our vaccines?

No offense, but while I admit being biased, I think you've only been exposed to biased research, the kind our government wants you to be exposed to, try to do a little research on your own, you'll be surprised what's out there.


----------



## Againsheila (Sep 19, 2010)

SmarterThanHick said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> > I have attended many seminars, almost all of which have lectures by doctors, psychiatrists, etc.  And yes, the people in the business will tell you on the books that it isn't the vaccines, but off the books, it's another story.  Let's face  it, our government wants our kids taking those vaccines and they will do all in the power to make sure that happens.
> ...



Nice try, but I didn't believe autism was caused by the vaccines until the Patriot Act.  

I paid various amounts from the seminars from $75 to $300.  The doctors held different degrees, I have a book by one of them called "Neurobiological disorders in children and adolescent."  I forget her name, but she and a college authored the book, it was used as a textbook for doctors at the UW which is were I had to go to get a copy.  

Why would the government lie?  Because they want everyone to have the vaccines, they figure having 1 in 166 people with autism is better than an epidemic.  And it may be better, by the numbers but it sure as heck isn't better for the parents of the autistic children.

I do not believe the doctors giving the vaccines are "lying" I don't think they know the truth.

I can't show you evidence, only those I've spoken to personal and off the books.

As for studies, everytime one comes up, it disappears very quickly.  Do your own research.  And if you have kids and they don't have autism, more power to you, but if you have a baby, I highly advise you to wait until they are 3 for those vaccines and then one at a time.  Don't you think it would be better to be safe than sorry?


----------



## Father Time (Sep 19, 2010)

Can show me the part of the Patriot Act that deals with vaccines?


----------



## geauxtohell (Sep 19, 2010)

Againsheila said:


> Oh, and btw, while this country prevents me from suing Ely Lilly, I could go to England and sue them and win, many have.  We aren't the only country that suffers from Autism.  Did you know there was no autism in China until we sent them our vaccines?



I am not a lawyer, but I would think you would have a hard time claiming damages in an English court as an American citizen and when the act that you deemed to be damaging happened on American soil to another American citizen.

You don't get to "judge shop" and I would venture to guess that you don't get to jurisdiction shop either.

As for your source, this was the only think I could find:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19082533

Which is a study from India with the following objective:



> To ascertain the prevalence of active epilepsy, febrile seizures (FS), cerebral palsy (CP) and tic disorders (TD) in aged 19 years or less.



Nothing about autism.



> Why would the government lie? Because they want everyone to have the vaccines, they figure having 1 in 166 people with autism is better than an epidemic.



Since autism is a relatively new diagnosis, we really can't claim that it's an epidemic.  It stands to reason that the incidence of autism has "magically" gone up since the 60s when it was first reported and written about as it becomes more and more known about.  This is further complicated by the fact that, like all psych disorders, there are no quantitative tests to diagnose autism.  Frankly, we how many children truly have autism and how many have been misdiagnosed.  Consider this:  Jenny McCarthy claimed that she "cured" her child of autism.  If that is the case, he will have been the first child to be cured of this.  Don't you suppose it's more likely that he was misdiagnosed?  

It is not known if the increase of autism cases is due to an environmental factor (other than vaccines which have been ruled out) or some confounding factor.  

It's not a good disease to draw a line in the sand and start screaming "epidemic!" simply because it is not a discrete pathology.


----------



## SmarterThanHick (Sep 19, 2010)

Againsheila said:


> Did you know that when my youngest was born, the only cause of polio in our country was the oral polio vaccine?


So you're saying a horrible epidemic was wiped from the face of your country due to vaccinations?  Oh and they stopped using oral vaccine based on RESEARCH and EVIDENCE?  Hmmm....  it's almost as if scientific investigation and vaccination is a good thing.....



> The only reason the mercury was in those vaccines was to preserve them, sorry, I'd rather have a fresh vaccine.


Preserve them against bacteria and other pathogens?  Yeah that sounds horrible.  You seem very fixated on the mercury.  It's an atom.  An element.  One of many in a substance, much like oxygen, carbon, and nitrogen, each of which are also atoms, and can also be used to create a handful of toxic or harmless substances.  Perhaps you should educate yourself a bit more on chemistry to focus on the greater molecule rather than the atoms that comprise it.




> Oh, and btw, while this country prevents me from suing Ely Lilly, I could go to England and sue them and win, many have.  We aren't the only country that suffers from Autism.  Did you know there was no autism in China until we sent them our vaccines?


There was also no obesity in china until we sent them vaccines too.  Oh and no iphones too. 

Once again you seem incapable of distinguishing correlation from causation.  In your mind, things occur around the same time, and so they must therefore cause one another.  This is foolish reasoning.



Againsheila said:


> Nice try, but I didn't believe autism was caused by the vaccines until the Patriot Act.


So your beliefs are not based on evidence or research, but on politics.  I feel bad for your children.



> I paid various amounts from the seminars from $75 to $300.  The doctors held different degrees, I have a book by one of them called "Neurobiological disorders in children and adolescent."  I forget her name


$300 per seminar?! How many of these did you go to?  I figure if 100 people went to a $300 seminar, that's $30,000 for one night.  Lady if you want to pay me that amount, I'd tell you whatever you want to hear too.  Why don't you be a dear and open that book you have to "remember" the name.  I am seeking a degree not "doctors held different degrees".  You can call yourself a doctor with a PhD in English literature.  Heck you can call yourself a doctor without ANY degree.  So let's drop the vague hand-waiving and start producing some names and concrete credentials.



> Why would the government lie?  Because they want everyone to have the vaccines, they figure having 1 in 166 people with autism is better than an epidemic.


So you understand that it is a larger public service to prevent thousands of childhood deaths and hundreds of thousands of childhood illnesses than to "prevent 1/166 cases of autism"?  So once again I ask: why would the government lie?  Even IF vaccines cause 1/166 cases of autism, which it doesn't, and prevent 1/5 life-threatening illnesses, why would the government need to lie about it?  Why do you think the government has ANYTHING to do with scientific reasoning and evidence based medicine?



> I do not believe the doctors giving the vaccines are "lying" I don't think they know the truth.


As I've mentioned before: every doctor in every children's hospital in this country states that vaccines are safe.  So you're saying your minuscule "education", comprised of paying people hundreds of dollars to tell you what you want to believe, is better suited for decision making compared to every pediatrician in this country, with years of formal medical and scientific training and hands on experience?  Such an idea is just as cracked as the quack seminars you reference.



> I can't show you evidence


Now why is that?  Odd.  You have no evidence.  I have mountains of it.  Yet you still think you're right for some reason. The word "delusional" comes to mind.



> As for studies, everytime one comes up, it disappears very quickly.  Do your own research.


I have done my own research.  So where are these studies?  Where do they disappear to?  Do men in black suits from the government go to the scientists homes and silence them?  Are the publications and writeups of the research somehow removed from all online databases?  Does the in-print version of these publications magically disappear from pages?  I can tell you the original scare story that produced this whole mess was retracted as being falsified, the author of which had his medical license revoked.  So why can't you point to any other studies?  Why can't you name a single scientist or group, whether published in peer reviewed scientific journals or even backwater blogs?

The truth comes back to what you said before: "I can't show you evidence".  Lucky for the welfare of this country's children, we do not base our medical decisions off the hunches of undereducated housewives who pay people to tell them what they want to hear based off absolutely no evidence whatsoever.  The fact still remains that our medical practices are based off evidence, not politics; that doctors are highly trained and educated in all the research available on the topic; that doctors strongly recommend vaccinations for their patients and their own children on the SAME schedule; and that no practicing pediatrician at any children's hospital in this country believes vaccines cause autism.


----------



## Againsheila (Sep 19, 2010)

Father Time said:


> Can show me the part of the Patriot Act that deals with vaccines?



It's a rider that was attached at the last minute that protects Ely Lilly, the makers of thermerosal specifically for causing autism.  8 years ago, I could have given you a site, today, I'm too lazy to do the work, look it up for yourself.


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## Againsheila (Sep 19, 2010)

geauxtohell said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> > Oh, and btw, while this country prevents me from suing Ely Lilly, I could go to England and sue them and win, many have.  We aren't the only country that suffers from Autism.  Did you know there was no autism in China until we sent them our vaccines?
> ...



Actually, having been born in England, I could claim English citizenship.  That's why I chose England.


----------



## Againsheila (Sep 19, 2010)

geauxtohell said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> > Oh, and btw, while this country prevents me from suing Ely Lilly, I could go to England and sue them and win, many have.  We aren't the only country that suffers from Autism.  Did you know there was no autism in China until we sent them our vaccines?
> ...



Believe as you will, it's your children you are putting at risk.  Even if I'm wrong, what harm does it do to wait until they are 3 and then get the vaccines 1 at a time?

I would think you would do whatever you can for the safety of your children, I know I would do things differently if I had it to do over.  I have two children with autism, I prefer not to have your kids or anyone else's join mine.  Which is why I speak up whenever someone starts claiming it's not the vaccines.  Why take chances?  Autism is a lifelong disorder, it doesn't ever go away, there is no cure.  

Autism was first diagnosed when the vaccines came out, and then in wealthy families (the ones most likely to get the vaccines).  There was no autism in China until we sent them our vaccines.  Again, why take chances?  Isn't it better to be safe than sorry?


----------



## geauxtohell (Sep 19, 2010)

Againsheila said:


> geauxtohell said:
> 
> 
> > Againsheila said:
> ...



Assuming your children aren't English citizens and the vaccinations happened here, you still run into the same problem.


----------



## geauxtohell (Sep 19, 2010)

Againsheila said:


> Believe as you will, it's your children you are putting at risk.  Even if I'm wrong, what harm does it do to wait until they are 3 and then get the vaccines 1 at a time?



This is the thing that is fucking maddening to us (and you really should watch the Penn and Teller clip which explains this).  You are putting them in a lot of harm.  This is not a "better to err on the side of caution" issue.  If it was, then it would be a simple answer.  I've already given you two examples of infectious diseases that are readily avoidable by vaccination that strike within the first year of life.  You obviously ignored them, so I'll give them to you again:

Epiglottitis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Ask your pediatrician what life was like prior to the advent of the HiB vaccine)

Rotavirus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Furthermore, the morbidity and mortality of diseases like the flu and HepB is drastically higher in infants who don't have a fully developed immune system.  

Case in point, what are the odds that a child will come into contact with the HepB virus?  Very low.  Why do we vaccinate them for it in the hospital?  Because if a neonate develops HepB, unlike adults, it will certainly go chronic and they will have liver failure at a very early age.  Unlike most adults, that are able to clear the virus, you can basically say it will result in 100% liver failure in children.  



> I would think you would do whatever you can for the safety of your children, I know I would do things differently if I had it to do over.  I have two children with autism, I prefer not to have your kids or anyone else's join mine.  Which is why I speak up whenever someone starts claiming it's not the vaccines.  Why take chances?  Autism is a lifelong disorder, it doesn't ever go away, there is no cure.



And if there was any good evidence (other then anecdotes) that vaccines caused autism, you would certainly have a good point.  

Again, I am sorry that you have two children with autism.  It doesn't change the basic facts around this issue.   



> Autism was first diagnosed when the vaccines came out, and then in wealthy families (the ones most likely to get the vaccines).



Autism was first used in medical language in 1943.  Jenner figured out how to vaccinate for smallpox in the 1700s.  Your assertion is not correct.  Since Autism was only recognized in the 40s, then by your logic we could attribute autism to anything in our society that children came into contact with that was around before the 40s.  

Since we are throwing darts, why not go with gasoline vapor?  



> There was no autism in China until we sent them our vaccines.  Again, why take chances?  Isn't it better to be safe than sorry?



Again, you confound the facts.  There was no "autism" in China until the 80's when Drs started diagnosing it.  Did autism exist in China prior to the 80's?  Certainly.  Did autism exist in this country before Drs. started diagnosing it?  Again, yes.  The same can be said for any disease.  HIV was HIV before Doctors knew what it was.  

Statistics of Autism in China - Autism-World


----------



## SmarterThanHick (Sep 19, 2010)

Againsheila said:


> Believe as you will, it's your children you are putting at risk.  Even if I'm wrong, what harm does it do to wait until they are 3 and then get the vaccines 1 at a time?


GTH pointed this out several times.  There are life threatening diseases that occur in that time period.  Why do you think 3 years is the magic number?  You and a bunch of quacks pulled that out of thin air.  



> I have two children with autism, I prefer not to have your kids or anyone else's join mine.  Which is why I speak up whenever someone starts claiming it's not the vaccines.  Why take chances?



Excellent question.  When the first rumor of this surfaced, the medical community reacted the same way, and pulled thimerosal from all vaccines.  Guess what happened?  Kids still got autism.  Then there were bad parents such as yourself who, under the ignorance of caring for their children, decided not to vaccinate them.  Guess what happened then?  *KIDS STILL GOT AUTISM.* 

You may have no evidence, but I do; evidence which shows autism happens regardless of vaccine or no vaccine at all, irrespective of the ridiculous 3 year mark you continually reference.



> Autism is a lifelong disorder, it doesn't ever go away, there is no cure.



And Hib, measles, mumps, rubella, pertussus, and tetanus are *life-ENDING diseases*.  Perhaps you would rather children die than get autism?  Because that is the unavoidable outcome for many children in a nation that doesn't vaccinate.


----------



## Againsheila (Sep 19, 2010)

SmarterThanHick said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> > Believe as you will, it's your children you are putting at risk.  Even if I'm wrong, what harm does it do to wait until they are 3 and then get the vaccines 1 at a time?
> ...




So you admit that there is a link between autism and the vaccines?

Interesting.....

3 years old is the magic number because at that point the body can sluff off the mercury that would be absorbed into an infants body.

BTW, my kids were vaccinated......according to you I'm a good parent for getting them vaccinated but a bad parent because they have autism.  Thanks for that unique perspective.


----------



## geauxtohell (Sep 19, 2010)

Againsheila said:


> 3 years old is the magic number because at that point the body can sluff off the mercury that would be absorbed into an infants body.



That's a curious factoid.  What is the physiology behind that?


----------



## SmarterThanHick (Sep 19, 2010)

Againsheila said:


> So you admit that there is a link between autism and the vaccines?



No.  Where did you see me say that?  Please quote it.  Perhaps you mistook your grasping for straws or my contrasting fact with your views to actual reality in this case.



Againsheila said:


> 3 years old is the magic number because at that point the body can sluff off the mercury that would be absorbed into an infants body.


Oh?  Do they not have livers until 3 years old?  What grows or develops in that time that isn't there from birth?  Please go on.  I'd love to hear more of your magical made up medicine ideas.



> BTW, my kids were vaccinated......according to you I'm a good parent for getting them vaccinated but a bad parent because they have autism.  Thanks for that unique perspective.


You're a bad parent for foregoing evidence based medicine.  LUCKILY for your children, the educated logical world had sense enough to vaccinate them.  I dare give you credit for that.  You are a bad parent for ignoring every pediatrician in the country.  While you may not have acted yet on your poor reasoning abilities, having a mother that ignores modern medical knowledge does leave your children at risk in the future. But luckily they are alive and healthy, despite the bad genes and environment which likely lead to the autism.

Have you found that book with the author's name and credentials yet?


----------



## chesswarsnow (Sep 29, 2010)

Sorry bout that,


1. Autisum is caused by vaccines, fucking *CASE CLOSED*!!!!!
2. Now its time the fucking government stop forcing all these vacciness onto our children!!!!!!!!!!!!!
3. You fucking stupid bastards,....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!,..... oh yeah,...and,...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!,...and yeah, ........FUCK YOU BASTARDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
4. Any quetions?


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


----------



## geauxtohell (Sep 29, 2010)

chesswarsnow said:


> Sorry bout that,
> 
> 
> 1. Autisum is caused by vaccines, fucking *CASE CLOSED*!!!!!
> ...



Yes.  Is it hard making it through life being totally and completely fucktarded?


----------



## SmarterThanHick (Sep 30, 2010)

It's not forced.  You can choose to not get a public or private education.  I have a feeling you may have already gone for that option.


----------



## chesswarsnow (Sep 30, 2010)

Sorry bout that,






Againsheila said:


> SmarterThanHick said:
> 
> 
> > Againsheila said:
> ...





1. I hear you loud and clear.
2. And I feel your pain.
3. These motherfuckers know all these massive shots do indeed cause autism.
4. They ain't that fucking dumb!!!!
5. My daughter won't be getting any more shots till after three years of age, shes almost two now, and they try to make me think I'm endangering her by not doing all they shots on thier time frame.
6. My son got quite a few shots there when he was younger, but I did slow down the rate at which they wanted to pump him up with them.
7. I dragged my feet, for him, and honestly I am proud I did drag them over that.
8. He had to get shots before they allowed him into school,..which by then he was already five years old.
9. AS I already said, when I was a kid, and child, I recieved few shots in order to get into school, and I never knew one person with autism, EVER!!!!
10. What they are doing is indeed criminal.


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


----------



## SmarterThanHick (Sep 30, 2010)

chesswarsnow said:


> 1. I hear you loud and clear.
> 2. And I feel your pain.
> 3. These motherfuckers know all these massive shots do indeed cause autism.
> 4. They ain't that fucking dumb!!!!
> ...



When you were a child, you had no clue what autism was.  It's no surprise you didn't know anyone with it.  Meanwhile, your daughter has already passed the common age of onset for autism, and you're still not offering her life saving vaccinations because of.....  what?  What information do you have that shows it causes autism?  Still waiting for that.


----------



## chesswarsnow (Sep 30, 2010)

Sorry bout that,






SmarterThanHick said:


> chesswarsnow said:
> 
> 
> > 1. I hear you loud and clear.
> ...



1. If you are still younger than thirty years of age, all you've know is autism, which means, you might know some one with it.
2. I am in the over fifty group, and I can honestly say, I never heard of autism till the early 1990's.
3. And having known many people older than myself, they tell me they neither knew a person with autism.
4. I think that they over load these children now days.
5. If you don't know just what these kids get, all starting at birth, because you don't have children, thats no excuse to me, google it and see what all they get, they get perhaps 50 shots within the first five years dude.
6. And they give them mulitple shots in one day,..they say, "You will be fine, but if the kid starts having an adverse effect wait around the waiting room thirty minutes before you leave.
7. Its a crime what they do to the children nowadays.
8. I am sure there is no stats on autism in the 60's when I was a child, because it was not around, and if it was it was only a few, who had been over dosed on shots, and that info isn't common knowledge, or shall I say, *Witheld*.


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


----------



## SmarterThanHick (Sep 30, 2010)

chesswarsnow said:


> Sorry bout that,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Children are not given 50 shots.  Once again you're completely making things up.  Autism also existed historically.  It just wasn't diagnosed.


----------



## geauxtohell (Sep 30, 2010)

chesswarsnow said:


> Sorry bout that,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You are over 50?  Holy Lord.  How have you made it this far with the whole functional illiteracy thing?

Though it's always amusing to watch people like you seize on a certain pathology that has been around for decades ( autism was first described in medical literature in the 40s) and go into freak-out mode since you have no clue what you are talking about.

Hey, in your own mind, you are 100% correct so what does it matter what anyone else thinks, right?


----------



## midcan5 (Oct 1, 2010)

As a grandpa I have to admit I am amazed at the number of shots children get today and so early in life. But our grandkids are all well after this regimen.  One item that I thought interesting after reading a bit on evolution was the change today in the birth ages of parents. We married young, it was what you did in our day, and if we are products of natural selection which I think we are, then would it not make biological sense to have children young? Old folks don't have kids, we are unnecessary today, although we have strong genes as the children look like our side. lol I wonder if there are stats on age and autism. The other thing that I find interesting is children seem to mature faster today, esp girls, maybe not always mentally but physically. I'm sure cave people didn't wait till they could afford upper level caves. Or maybe our environment is just going so toxic, our genes can't handle it all?


----------



## chesswarsnow (Oct 2, 2010)

Sorry bout that,





SmarterThanHick said:


> chesswarsnow said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry bout that,
> ...






1. Well I did a quick search myself, seeing nobody else wanted too.
2. And its a shit load of shots dudes.
3. Well over what I had to take, and I turned out prefectly!
4. Link and sample;Immunization Schedule


"Birth
Hep B: Hepatitis B vaccine (HBV); recommended to give the first dose at birth, but may be given at any age for those not previously immunized. 
1-2 months
Hep B: Second dose should be administered 1 to 2 months after the first dose. 
2 months
DTaP: Diphtheria, tetanus, and acellular pertussis vaccine 
Hib: Haemophilus influenzae type b vaccine 
IPV: Inactivated poliovirus vaccine 
PCV: Pneumococcal conjugate vaccine 
Rota: Rotavirus vaccine 
4 months
DTaP 
Hib 
IPV 
PCV 
Rota 
6 months
DTaP 
Hib 
PCV 
Rota "


9. This is a partial list, go to link to see all the shot they publish, but I can tell you this isn't complete at *ALL*.
10. You fuckers are just too fucking stupid for the childrens good, your *FUCKING FIRED*!!!! as parents!!!


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


----------



## geauxtohell (Oct 2, 2010)

chesswarsnow said:


> 1. Well I did a quick search myself, seeing nobody else wanted too.



LMAO.  Hick and I have the vaccine schedule memorized.  We don't have to look it up to know that children aren't given 50 shots at birth or in their first 20 years of their lives.  



> 9. This is a partial list, go to link to see all the shot they publish, but I can tell you this isn't complete at *ALL*.



It's complete for the first six months of life +/- varicella and the HPV vax.



> 10. You fuckers are just too fucking stupid for the childrens good, your *FUCKING FIRED*!!!! as parents!!!



Blah, blah, blah.  I assume that you would expand that comment to all pediatricians and that no one should take their children to a pediatrician.


----------



## chesswarsnow (Oct 2, 2010)

Sorry bout that,






geauxtohell said:


> chesswarsnow said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry bout that,
> ...





1. Shit its a minor miracle you can even type on your fucking keyboard dude.
2. Yes I know that there were a few autistic people diagnosed supposedly years ago, but where is the evidence?
3. Who knew them, where were they cared for, and how many were there?
4. One in fucking 150 now, we see them everywhere, now, and back then they were more likely a product of failed medical testing on humans.
5. Again your just too fucking stupid to figure this out moron!
6. Your the fucking idiot who hears the truth lets say, you were drivng your fucking car towards a bridge that was out, and I told you it was, but you would drive towards it, without even giving it a second thought, right over the edge, good fucking ridance moron!!!
7. I say, you go ahead and take your kids on down there and get all the shots when and how often the health depatment/pediatrician tells you , you fucking moron!


----------



## SmarterThanHick (Oct 2, 2010)

You said 50 shots, which is completely inaccurate.  Now you're backpedaling and calling us dumb? By the way, the rotavirus vaccine is not a shot at all. You have demonstrated that you are completely clueless on this topic, being proven wrong time and time again, and yet you think you are an informed parent making good decisions from evidence on the topic?  How pathetic.  That little cursing spree you just went on is the outburst equivalent to crying yourself to sleep.  Maybe if you curse more, you'll be a better parent!

The organisms you just listed are the shots given at birth, 2 months, 4 months, 6 months, and one year. The ones at 2, 4, and 6 months can be given as a single combined shot called pentacel.

REGARDLESS of the fact that your "50 shots" just got reduced to 5 sessions.  In fact, most people get more flu shots in their life than childhood immunizations. Nonetheless, even if there WERE a large number of shots given, you STILL have ZERO data that suggests it is even remotely correlated to autism.  All you have is an uninformed, inexperienced perspective stemming mostly from the fact that autism wasn't diagnosed when you were growing up to the same degree as today.  Neither was HIV, morbid obesity, diabetes, and brain cancer.  Maybe vaccines caused those too!  Hey while you're at it, maybe you should conclude childhood vaccines caused the invention of the internet too.


----------



## geauxtohell (Oct 2, 2010)

chesswarsnow said:


> 2. Yes I know that there were a few autistic people diagnosed supposedly years ago, but where is the evidence?
> 3. Who knew them, where were they cared for, and how many were there?



Holy shit.  Are this stupid?  You just answered your own question.  Obviously no one was diagnosed with autism before there was an official diagnosis to be made.  That doesn't mean the pathology didn't exist and medical literature exists that describes autism cases in the 1700s.  

Most likely, back when life was more cruel, those that were considered to not fully have their wits were institutionalized or simply abandoned to try and fend for themselves.

It's only because we are a more civilized society that has a life expectancy past 40 years of age that we obsess about conditions that don't cause a rapid death.


----------



## chesswarsnow (Oct 2, 2010)

SOrry bout that,





SmarterThanHick said:


> You said 50 shots, which is completely inaccurate.  Now you're backpedaling and calling us dumb? By the way, the rotavirus vaccine is not a shot at all. You have demonstrated that you are completely clueless on this topic, being proven wrong time and time again, and yet you think you are an informed parent making good decisions from evidence on the topic?  How pathetic.  That little cursing spree you just went on is the outburst equivalent to crying yourself to sleep.  Maybe if you curse more, you'll be a better parent!
> 
> The organisms you just listed are the shots given at birth, 2 months, 4 months, 6 months, and one year. The ones at 2, 4, and 6 months can be given as a single combined shot called pentacel.
> 
> REGARDLESS of the fact that your "50 shots" just got reduced to 5 sessions.  In fact, most people get more flu shots in their life than childhood immunizations. Nonetheless, even if there WERE a large number of shots given, you STILL have ZERO data that suggests it is even remotely correlated to autism.  All you have is an uninformed, inexperienced perspective stemming mostly from the fact that autism wasn't diagnosed when you were growing up to the same degree as today.  Neither was HIV, morbid obesity, diabetes, and brain cancer.  Maybe vaccines caused those too!  Hey while you're at it, maybe you should conclude childhood vaccines caused the invention of the internet too.





1. I'm not backpedalling, I'm fucking still outraged that there are morons like you fucking bastards!
2. I do infact blame all you fucking pediatricians, health departments, and governmant agencies; All you mother fuckers are fucking *GUILTY*!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
3. I am not ever going to change my mind.
4. *OVER DOSAGE OF VACCINES CAUSE AUTISM*
5. Whats insane, is America has been burning one child out of a hundred and fifty for twenty years, and still those *GUILTY BASTARDS* keep shooting these chidren up with all these fucking shots, and are too fucking stupid to see it.
6. *YOU GUILTY BASTRDS*


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


----------



## RadiomanATL (Oct 2, 2010)

chesswarsnow said:


> SOrry bout that,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Calm down, Jenny.


----------



## chesswarsnow (Oct 2, 2010)

Sorry bout that,






geauxtohell said:


> chesswarsnow said:
> 
> 
> > 2. Yes I know that there were a few autistic people diagnosed supposedly years ago, but where is the evidence?
> ...





3. Yeah we are so civilized we burn our children with vaccines, so they are basically a vegetable, ahh hell its just one out a hundred and fucking fifty right???
4. And another thing that gripes my ass, you fuckers justify it by saying, "Hey look at all the disease we are preventing!"


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


----------



## geauxtohell (Oct 2, 2010)

chesswarsnow said:


> Sorry bout that,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You really are this stupid.  Educate yourself on the terms "incidence" and "prevalence" of disease and how they are alike and how they are different and you just might be able to crack this uber-tough intellectual nut on your own.  

Ah, who am I kidding?  You still blather on with your inane bullshit, because in the end you are only concerned with being a screaming jackass.  I'll give you a hint though:  the prevalence of autism was most likely not well recorded before there was an official diagnosis.  

As it stands, it's a Saturday night and I am on rotation, which means one thing:  I am going out to drink.

Enjoy your Saturday night screaming at your monitor.


----------



## chesswarsnow (Oct 2, 2010)

Sorry bout that,






geauxtohell said:


> chesswarsnow said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry bout that,
> ...





1. Sure I'm going to fucking scream for the innocent children that are going to get fucking burned by you mother fuckers this week and last week and every other day in the future!!!!!
2. Sure you go drink and drown the *GUILT*, its all because you fuckers know it all, at least you think you do, and these innocent children are getting burned day in and day fucking out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
3. *FUCKING BASTARDS*!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


----------



## geauxtohell (Oct 2, 2010)

chesswarsnow said:


> Sorry bout that,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Pop a Xanan, Jimmy.  You'll feel better.  Wouldn't want you stroking out on us now, would we?


----------



## SmarterThanHick (Oct 2, 2010)

chesswarsnow said:


> SOrry bout that,
> 
> 1. I'm not backpedalling, I'm fucking still outraged that there are morons like you fucking bastards!
> 2. I do infact blame all you fucking pediatricians, health departments, and governmant agencies; All you mother fuckers are fucking *GUILTY*!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Oh you're not backpedaling, you're just changing your uninformed ideas from "50 shots" to something much less than 50.  Right.  

When you say that you're "outraged that there are morons like you fucking bastards", are you referring to doctor or researchers or some other group of highly educated highly experienced group that uses evidence to make informed decisions?  Which highly skilled morons are you referring to?



> 3. I am not ever going to change my mind.


See this is what makes you a moron and bad parent.  You see smart people can and DO change their minds when evidence is presented before them.  A reasonable person would see the evidence, and drop their personal bias to correct their understanding.  You, on the other hand, lack the capacity for such insight and adaptivity for higher learning. I'd guess your education stopped at the high school level.  Maybe community college.  



> 4. *OVER DOSAGE OF VACCINES CAUSE AUTISM*
> 5. Whats insane, is America has been burning one child out of a hundred and fifty for twenty years, and still those *GUILTY BASTARDS* keep shooting these chidren up with all these fucking shots, and are too fucking stupid to see it.
> 6. *YOU GUILTY BASTRDS*



Well the problem with your well rehearsed ignorance is that when other concerned parents got scared and refused to get their children vaccinated, their children were diagnosed with autism AT THE EXACT SAME RATE as those who received the vaccines.  So to recap: both groups were equally at risk for autism, and the unvaccinated group was at risk for deadly diseases as well.  Yes, there is reproducible evidence that supports this, but something as insignificant as facts seem to not phase your worldview.


----------



## chesswarsnow (Oct 2, 2010)

Sorry bout that,






SmarterThanHick said:


> chesswarsnow said:
> 
> 
> > SOrry bout that,
> ...






4. Fucking blarney, the fucking vaccines are causing autism and some day this will be known for a fact, I'm just one of many who are pissed by those in the medical fields actively involved with this *Junk Science*  on our children!
5. The fact that I said 50, or 60, or whatever the fuck, I don't keep count to how many  the exact number actually is, but I did search it, and it looks like its something like 36 or something, and I bet thats still not all that is required, wheres your fucking numbers *BUCKWHEAT*!!!
6. Also my two year old has only had 4 shots, which makes her way behind,..... and I plan on keeping her behind too!!!! so fuck you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
7. And as of now she is developing just perfectly , talking and everything as a normal childs meant to do, and she won't get burnt by the fucking medical fields.



Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


----------



## 2Parties (Oct 2, 2010)

Odd conspiracy I've wondered about:  What if the government is doing an experiment on some people?  What if 99% of the vaccines are safe and what the government claims about them is true, but 1% are filled with something that screws some kids up?

It wouldn't be the first time, and surely wouldn't be the last time they'd preform experiments like this.


----------



## SmarterThanHick (Oct 2, 2010)

chesswarsnow said:


> SmarterThanHick said:
> 
> 
> > chesswarsnow said:
> ...



It's hilarious because I claim you wouldn't change your mind regardless of what evidence there is.  You respond by saying there's no evidence.  When I say there is evidence which has been clearly documented and can be confirmed, you claim it's not true, proving the first point I made about you lacking the capacity for insight and adaptivity for higher learning.  You just proved me right!  



> 4. Fucking blarney, the fucking vaccines are causing autism and some day this will be known for a fact, I'm just one of many who are pissed by those in the medical fields actively involved with this *Junk Science*  on our children!
> 5. The fact that I said 50, or 60, or whatever the fuck, I don't keep count to how many  the exact number actually is, but I did search it, and it looks like its something like 36 or something, and I bet thats still not all that is required, wheres you fucking numbers *BUCKWHEAT*!!!


Is buckwheat a slang curse or racial slur or bad name or something?  What does it mean?  

Just curious though: how do you explain the kids who didn't get vaccinated and who still got autism at the exact same rate as the kids who did?  Is the delusion that the people lied?  Or the researchers lied?  Or that someone "infected" the unvaccinated kids so that later verification of the facts always determined they had autism?  How do you explain the evidence that shows you to be wrong?



> 6. Also my two year old has only had 4 shots, which makes her way behind,..... and I plan on keeping her behind too!!!! so fuck you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


You kid is "behind" for having a parent like you in the first place.


----------



## chesswarsnow (Oct 2, 2010)

Sorry bout that,


1. I see no fucking evidense *BUCKWHEAT*!!!!!
2. I see you saying theres some evidence, but I ain't seeing it.
3. You head on down there with your child then, and get him/her shot full of vaccines.
4. I will protect my child from fucking people like you!
5. I guess we agree to disagree.


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


----------



## chesswarsnow (Oct 2, 2010)

Sorry bout that,


1. Look here, I was punching around on my computer, on google and found this little jewel.
2. Seems the Amish who do not vaccinate, have *ZERO* cases of autism.
3. Those amish who do vaccinate, have the same rates of autism as the rest of the nation who vaccinate.
4. *FUCKING CASE CLOSED MOTHER FUCKERS*!!!!!!!
5. Just like when I was a kid, no one got autism, lets go back to that you, *FUCKING MORONS*!!!
6. Link and sample:NO AUTISM FOR UNVACCINATED AMISH?


"NO AUTISM FOR UNVACCINATED AMISH?
The Age of Autism: 'A pretty big secret'
UPI | December 7, 2005
By DAN OLMSTED 

It's a far piece from the horse-and-buggies of Lancaster County, Pa., to the cars and freeways of Cook County, Ill. 

But thousands of children cared for by Homefirst Health Services in metropolitan Chicago have at least two things in common with thousands of Amish children in rural Lancaster: They have never been vaccinated. And they don't have autism. 

"We have a fairly large practice. We have about 30,000 or 35,000 children that we've taken care of over the years, and I don't think we have a single case of autism in children delivered by us who never received vaccines," said Dr. Mayer Eisenstein, Homefirst's medical director who founded the practice in 1973. Homefirst doctors have delivered more than 15,000 babies at home, and thousands of them have never been vaccinated. 

The few autistic children Homefirst sees were vaccinated before their families became patients, Eisenstein said. "I can think of two or three autistic children who we've delivered their mother's next baby, and we aren't really totally taking care of that child -- they have special care needs. But they bring the younger children to us. I don't have a single case that I can think of that wasn't vaccinated." 

The autism rate in Illinois public schools is 38 per 10,000, according to state Education Department data; the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention puts the national rate of autism spectrum disorders at 1 in 166 -- 60 per 10,000. 

"We do have enough of a sample," Eisenstein said. "The numbers are too large to not see it. We would absolutely know. We're all family doctors. If I have a child with autism come in, there's no communication. It's frightening. You can't touch them. It's not something that anyone would miss." 

No one knows what causes autism, but federal health authorities say it isn't childhood immunizations. Some parents and a small minority of doctors and scientists, however, assert vaccines are responsible. 

This column has been looking for autism in never-vaccinated U.S. children in an effort to shed light on the issue. We went to Chicago to meet with Eisenstein at the suggestion of a reader, and we also visited Homefirst's office in northwest suburban Rolling Meadows. Homefirst has four other offices in the Chicago area and a total of six doctors. "

7. Also people who home schooled and didn't get thier children vaccinated, hey guess what, *ZERO* cases of *FUCKING AUTISM*!!!!!


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


----------



## geauxtohell (Oct 3, 2010)

chesswarsnow said:


> 1. I see no fucking *evidense* *BUCKWHEAT*!!!!!



Oh, the irony.


----------



## SmarterThanHick (Oct 3, 2010)

chesswarsnow said:


> Sorry bout that,
> 
> 
> 1. I see no fucking evidense *BUCKWHEAT*!!!!!
> ...


I can only assume "buckwheat" is some hick attempt at insult, but it's best the other person knows what the insult means for it to be effective. 

We don't agree to disagree.  You're a moron.  The evidence is clear.  
-- Immunization Safety Review: Vaccines and Autism -- NCBI Bookshelf
Lancet retracts 12-year-old article linking autism to MMR vaccines
Good but long overview of the entire thing: Mercury, Vaccines, and Autism
Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines and Autistic Spectrum Disorder: A Critical Review of Published Original Data -- Parker et al. 114 (3): 793 -- Pediatrics
Association between thimerosal-containing vaccine ... [JAMA. 2003] - PubMed result



chesswarsnow said:


> 1. Look here, I was punching around on my computer, on google and found this little jewel.
> 2. Seems the Amish who do not vaccinate, have *ZERO* cases of autism.
> 3. Those amish who do vaccinate, have the same rates of autism as the rest of the nation who vaccinate.
> 4. *FUCKING CASE CLOSED MOTHER FUCKERS*!!!!!!!
> ...



I see your opinion there from 5 years ago says that.  Unfortunately, that myth has been debunked countless times.  
Autism Among the Amish: A Vaccination Myth Deconstructed
Do The Amish Vaccinate? Indeed They Do, AND Their Autism Rates May be Lower
Opposing Views: Myth: "Amish Don't Have Autism"


There are studies that compare children who get vaccines with thimerasal against those who are vaccinated without the additive, there are studies of children who are vaccinated against those not vaccinated, and there are studies of the studies to make sure no one study is skewed.  The reason you're not seeing the evidence is because your eyes are closed.  These are peer reviewed scrutinized papers published in multiple countries across the world in some of the most prestigious scientific journals.  Your source is a BLOG with information I just debunked as completely fictitious. 

So tell me: why do you think you are smarter or in a better position to draw conclusions than all these reports, all of these direct comparisons of vaccinated vs unvaccinated children?  Do you still think the world is flat too because the horizon looks so?


----------



## chesswarsnow (Oct 3, 2010)

Sorry bout that,


1. I read your links, and all they are saying is, *We Double Down*.
2. No proof the vaccines don't cause *AUTISM*!!!!!!!
3. One of your links tries to attack the Amish link I supplied, its a failure!!!
4. Why does it say this?


"Wakefield, Andrew and others THE LANCET Ileal-lymphoid-nodular hyperplasia, non-specific colitis, and pervasive developmental disorder in children 1998 Feb 28;351(9103):637-41"

5. Same man who started this debate, back when he agreed with you, in 1998, but wrote a paper on just how bad the MMR was causing autism in this century, can you get some new links?.
6. The medical commuity are all sticking together on this, and as we know already, there is a court case in America that went for the *VACCINES CAUSE AUTISM*, with a hefty payout going to the winners.
7. Problem is your holding onto old fucking information, back when all the data was scewed towards your side of the argument.
8. Those times are gone mother fucker!
9. The times they are a changing moron, soon we only vaccinate the medical commuities children with MMR, and change the way we vaccinate *ALL* other children.
10. Just to make it fair, and seeing this is what you fuckers believe, make your children eat it!!!


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


----------



## chesswarsnow (Oct 3, 2010)

Sorry bout that,


1. Further reading your links, this links bullshit!!!
2. Do The Amish Vaccinate? Indeed They Do, AND Their Autism Rates May be Lower

"The Amish do vaccinate. But in other ways they live very differently from the rest of us. I can't help but wonder whether they have a great deal to teach us relative to our children with autism. "


*SOME DO SOME DON'T*, *THEM WHO DON'T, DON'T GET AUTISM*!!!!!!!!


3. Yeah they ride horse and buggie, and don't get thier kids there on time to get over dosed with all the fucking shots you prescribe and when you fuckers prescribe them!!!!!!



Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


----------



## SmarterThanHick (Oct 3, 2010)

chesswarsnow said:


> 1. I read your links, and all they are saying is, *We Double Down*.
> 2. No proof the vaccines don't cause *AUTISM*!!!!!!!
> 3. One of your links tries to attack the Amish link I supplied, its a failure!!!
> 4. Why does it say this?


Clearly you did not actually read any of the links if that's all you thought they said.  One of them was an overview of how Wakefield conducted unethical research.  One of them is a study directly comparing vaccinated vs unvaccinated children and finding both groups get autism at the same rate.  There is nothing unclear about those findings.  Another is a study that investigates thimerosal vaccinationed children vs vaccinated children who didn't receive the additive, which ALSO found both groups got autism at the same rate. 

There is no uncertainty or lack of clarity in these findings.  So it's obvious to me that you in no way actually read the evidence.  And then you say you've never seen the evidence because you didn't read it, and then you say none exists.  Exactly as I said before: your eyes are closed. 



> "Wakefield, Andrew and others THE LANCET Ileal-lymphoid-nodular hyperplasia, non-specific colitis, and pervasive developmental disorder in children 1998 Feb 28;351(9103):637-41"
> 
> 5. Same man who started this debate, back when he agreed with you, in 1998, but wrote a paper on just how bad the MMR was causing autism in this century, can you get some new links?.


Yes, this was the paper by Wakefield conducted under unethical standards, which was RETRACTED by the journal LANCET, and cost Wakefield his medical license.  Again, had you actually READ the links I gave you, you would have seen the SECOND LINK goes over that.  Hell you could have figured it out even if you didn't click on the link but instead just read the title.  

This is why you're a moron and a bad parent.  



> 7. Problem is your holding onto old fucking information, back when all the data was scewed towards your side of the argument.
> 8. Those times are gone mother fucker!
> 9. The times they are a changing moron, soon we only vaccinate the medical commuities children with MMR, and change the way we vaccinate *ALL* other children.



This would be a valid argument IF you were smart enough to actually look at the dates on these articles.  Note the one you provided, the very same one which was retracted and cost the author his medical license, was from 1998.  Note how ALL of my links came after that time.  This may be a difficult concept for you to grasp, but that means YOUR information is older, outdated, and inaccurate.  

So your inane idea that new information shows vaccines cause autism is completely false, as I just proved.  Not only is it wrong, it's exactly backwards: YOU are using outdated information, and I am providing link after link of newer information that agrees with me and debunks you.  

Now what did I say a moron was?  Oh yes: someone who lacks the insight and adaptive capacity to change their viewpoint once new evidence is presented before them.  I'm guessing, despite just proving yourself wrong, you still won't change your mind.  You meet the criteria.


----------



## chesswarsnow (Oct 3, 2010)

Sorry bout that,


1. Wakefield was rail roaded, we all know that now.
2. Just promise me after *ALL* the truth comes out about how MMR is causing Autism, that your children will remain taking it, and thier children too.
3. Yeah, times ticking on all this crap you bastards are prescribing!!!


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


----------



## chesswarsnow (Oct 3, 2010)

Sorry bout that,



1. The cases against all the dosages that they pile up on the children will over throw all the fucking medical experts.
2. Sooner or later they method will fall.
3. And we Americans and other nations will relize that if you over dose children, they will get burnt.
4. And then the medical and government will slow down the pace and spread out the delivery of all these vaccines.
5. Anyone have a problem with this?
6. *BRING IT MOTHER FUCKERS*!!!
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/06/11/health/main2911164.shtml


"The parents of 12-year-old Michelle Cedillo asked a federal court Monday to find that their child's autism was caused by common childhood vaccines, a precedent-setting case that could pave the way for thousands of autistic children to receive compensation from a government fund set up to help people injured by the shots.

Wearing noise-canceling headphones, Michelle, of Yuma, Ariz., was brought into the courtroom in a wheelchair at the start of the proceedings before the U.S. Court of Federal Claims. She stayed only a short time.

Her parents, Theresa and Michael Cedillo, allege a preservative called thimerosal that had been used in vaccines weakened their daughter's immune system and prevented her body from clearing the measles virus after she was immunized for the disease at age 15 months.

Today, Michelle suffers from a litany of health problems, including severe autism, inflammatory bowel disease, glaucoma and epilepsy.

"We hope to find out what happened and hopefully get the help she needs," said Theresa Cedillo, who takes care of her daughter full time at home.

Special Master George Hastings Jr. thanked the family for allowing theirs to be the first of nine test cases that will help guide the resolution of some of the nearly 5,000 similar claims lodged with the government."



Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


----------



## SmarterThanHick (Oct 3, 2010)

chesswarsnow said:


> 1. Wakefield was rail roaded, we all know that now.
> 2. Just promise me after *ALL* the truth comes out about how MMR is causing Autism, that your children will remain taking it, and thier children too.
> 3. Yeah, times ticking on all this crap you bastards are prescribing!!!



There is no mystery to how and why Wakefield's paper is unethical.  He didn't follow the same standards as everyone else, basing a conclusion off a small number of cherry picked children.  It's easy to see how his methods were just plain wrong, if you read the link I provided......   which you didn't.

So the truth remains that when kids are divided into two groups, one which receives vaccinations and one which doesn't, both groups get autism at the same rate.  This is fact.  This has been demonstrated through numerous publications.  

And IF in the future some different factual evidence does surface, I will change my opinion.  But as the score stands now, we have one unethical publication that is clearly misleading against countless reproductions of Wakefield's model using legitimate scientific reasoning that completely disprove him and show without any doubt that there is no correlation between vaccination and autism.

Given those FACTS, I'm going to side with the evidence, and you can continue your completely unsupported conspiracy theory that requires the following events to work:

Wakefield's paper was really valid
Wakefield was incorrectly discredited
All the aspects of his paper which appear unethical and cherry picked are somehow valid scientific methods
All the standardized ethical research that examined this topic was fabricated
All the children who didn't get vaccinated but still got autism were "infected" to appear AS IF things were equal
Independent public health organizations around the world are in on the conspiracy
Governments from around the world are also in on the conspiracy
But hicks such as yourself with no scientific education or experience figured out the "truth" all along

Seeing as you're incapable of reading evidence while concurrently claiming there is no evidence, let's see if your attention span can last a minute and a half on watching something:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfdZTZQvuCo&feature=related]YouTube - Penn and Teller on Vaccinations[/ame]


----------



## eots (Oct 3, 2010)

anyone that uses penn and teller in a debate on anything has just lost the debate


----------



## SmarterThanHick (Oct 3, 2010)

I think you mean hitler.  I am not familiar with their usual musings, but I saw this elsewhere on the forum, and on this issue, the example is spot on: vaccines don't cause autism, and but even IF they did, lack of vaccination is a much worse fate from a public health perspective.


----------



## chesswarsnow (Oct 3, 2010)

Sorry bout that,


1. Oh you will have to change your mind.
2. When the medical quacks change thiers.
3. Oh yes, be fucking safe, go with the crowd.
4. I will not go with the crowd on this issue, never!
5. Pin Head and Teller, are just fucking clowns, and thier claim is, *Look at what we are preventing!*, thats how most of the medical industry looks at this issue.
6. I fucking don't!!!!!
7. What is needed is the health departments need to slow down the exposure, no more combo drugs!!!!!
8. No combo drugs with other shots, where they pile on many shots in one day!!!!
9. This is the *CRUX* of the problem!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
10. And sooner or later we will have to win this, for the childrens sakes!!!!!!!!!
11. The way the system is now, from a administer point of view from doctors and nurses, is, *Get The Fucking Kids In Here And Shoot The Fuck Out Of Them So We Dont Have To See Them Again For Awhile, Lets Get This Fucking Over People!!!!!*, the children get too much, and burn out.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


----------



## eots (Oct 3, 2010)

SmarterThanHick said:


> I think you mean hitler.  I am not familiar with their usual musings, but I saw this elsewhere on the forum, and on this issue, the example is spot on: vaccines don't cause autism, and but even IF they did, lack of vaccination is a much worse fate from a public health perspective.



you say lack of vaccination..how vague..just because vaccines are able to protect against some illnesses does not mean that we sit and dine at the all you can eat vaccine buffet..and these statistics of benefits attribute all improvement in lessing the instances of these illness to vaccination when other factors may of significantly contributed to lowering rates of contraction and mortality from these illnesses


----------



## Againsheila (Oct 3, 2010)

SmarterThanHick said:


> chesswarsnow said:
> 
> 
> > SOrry bout that,
> ...



Do you happen to have a site for that source?  I have NEVER heard that.


----------



## geauxtohell (Oct 3, 2010)

eots said:


> SmarterThanHick said:
> 
> 
> > I think you mean hitler.  I am not familiar with their usual musings, but I saw this elsewhere on the forum, and on this issue, the example is spot on: vaccines don't cause autism, and but even IF they did, lack of vaccination is a much worse fate from a public health perspective.
> ...



Which ones would you cut out and why?


----------



## eots (Oct 3, 2010)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIq_0Q7adZk]YouTube - Tony Perkins on Mandatory HPV Vaccinations[/ame]


----------



## eots (Oct 3, 2010)

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1z7KSEnyxw[/ame]


----------



## Douger (Oct 3, 2010)

CrusaderFrank said:


> But the Amish...


True. They also don't eat much of that shit your masters shove down your throat disguised as "food".
Your "food" is about as real as your "news".


----------



## geauxtohell (Oct 3, 2010)

eots said:


> Tony Perkins



1.)  The HPV vaccine is generally not administered in the shot series that people associate (erroneously) with autism.
2.)  Tony:  A vaccine is not a "drug".  
3.)  Of course Tony Perkins, the spokesman for the evangelical loons is going to oppose a vaccine that would prevent the spread of an STD (which he most likely feels is a well deserved punishment for "fornicators").  In fact, if you bothered to listen to his stump speech, you realize that was his entire objection.  He made only one single point that was even remotely medically salient and that was along the lines of "It's so new we don't know if it's safe..." which is lame, because that same argument can be made about any drug or vaccine that is released on the open market and thus not a good reason to oppose gardasil.  His entire objection to the vaccine was simply that it would prevent the spread of HPV and that it was "not like polio" because polio isn't transmitted by HPV.

In reality, the HPV vax is the one shot that people can get that will eradicate 99% of a certain type of cancer.  This isn't about sex at all (at least not to anyone who isn't obsessed with other people's sex lives like Perkins), it's about preventing disease.  The mission of modern medicine.  This is why goofballs like Perkins with their bible thumping objections are not given any consideration by the medical community.  Opposing a vaccination measure that can eradicate a form of cancer simply because you are opposed to people's lifestyle choices is asinine and illogical.  Regardless of whether we have vaccines against HPV or not, people are still going to fuck around (as they have since the beginning of time) and spread HPV and cause women to get cervical cancer.  So why not be pragmatic about it?  

As for Holtorf, he is viewed as a quack by the medical establishment.  He makes his living off of pimping treatment modalities that aren't supported by evidence based medicine and have not proven to be effective.  He is also not an infectious disease expert nor does he specialize in the bullshit that he was spouting off on Fox news.


----------



## SmarterThanHick (Oct 3, 2010)

chesswarsnow said:


> 1. Oh you will have to change your mind.
> 2. When the medical quacks change thiers.
> 3. Oh yes, be fucking safe, go with the crowd.


Well, no.  You see unlike your mindset that follows ideas pre-constructed by your own mind without any supporting data whatsoever, I am "listening" to the evidence.  It doesn't matter who supports or denies that evidence, so long as the evidence is procured in a legitimate and scientifically sound manner.

In other words: I'm looking at everything and deciding for myself, while you look at NOTHING and decide for yourself.  Clearly neither one of us wants to listen to quacks or politicians, but at the end of the day, I am knowledgeable and informed on the topic, whereas you continue to post outdated drivel that has been shown to be debunked. 



> 4. I will not go with the crowd on this issue, never!


And that's perfectly fine.  But rejecting legitimate evidence is where you cross the line into being a quack yourself, as well as a bad parent. 



> 7. What is needed is the health departments need to slow down the exposure, no more combo drugs!!!!!
> 8. No combo drugs with other shots, where they pile on many shots in one day!!!!
> 9. This is the *CRUX* of the problem!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And once again I ask: what study or evidence do you have that supports that combination shots, compared to spacing them out or not offering them at all is superior with regard to autism?  There isn't a SINGLE published study out there that even remotely suggests such a thing.  



> 11. The way the system is now, from a administer point of view from doctors and nurses, is, *Get The Fucking Kids In Here And Shoot The Fuck Out Of Them So We Dont Have To See Them Again For Awhile, Lets Get This Fucking Over People!!!!!*, the children get too much, and burn out.


It's clear by this quote that you know little about a medical practice, let alone the intense education and experiences required to practice medicine.  Your conspiracy theories are amusing, but still completely supported only by your paranoia.


----------



## SmarterThanHick (Oct 3, 2010)

eots said:


> you say lack of vaccination..how vague


Not really.  Lack of vaccination means not getting vaccinated.  What's vague about it?



> just because vaccines are able to protect against some illnesses does not mean that we sit and dine at the all you can eat vaccine buffet..and these statistics of benefits attribute all improvement in lessing the instances of these illness to vaccination when other factors may of significantly contributed to lowering rates of contraction and mortality from these illnesses


Interesting theory.  What do you have to support it?  Meanwhile, in children who are vaccinated, the rates of hepatitis A, B, Hib, measles, mumps, rubella, chickenpox, rotavirus, and polio essentially drop to zero, where the kids who are NOT vaccinated still can and do get these diseases.  You can bitch and moan all you want that there may be some magical cure all that descended upon the United States, but the fact still remains that historically and internationally, these diseases can and DO infect people who are not immunized. 



Againsheila said:


> Do you happen to have a site for that source?  I have NEVER heard that.


I had a few links a page or two back in one of my posts of the initial studies that showed these outcomes.  Let me know if you can't find it.  The evidence is very clear.


----------



## chesswarsnow (Oct 3, 2010)

Sorry bout that,


1. Seldom does a child of a medical expert get *Autism*.
2. Hummmmm,.....why is that?
3. Funny how the laws of averages don't apply to the medical fields children???
3. (a) Thats the study I want to read about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
4. *FUCK YOU BASTARDS!*
5. What these mother fuckers are doing is criminal!!!!!!


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


----------



## Charles_Main (Oct 3, 2010)

geauxtohell said:


> > It's no wonder when the Internet and television airwaves are full of personal stories that raise a question about the link. But the study that started the autism vaccine scare was recently retracted by the prestigious journal that published it 12 years ago, and the lead researcher had his medical license pulled.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Study after study has shown NO connection between vaccines and Autism. Yet the Debate rages. 

Me thinks the end is not near.


----------



## SmarterThanHick (Oct 3, 2010)

chesswarsnow said:


> 1. Seldom does a child of a medical expert get *Autism*.
> 2. Hummmmm,.....why is that?
> 3. Funny how the laws of averages don't apply to the medical fields children???
> 3. (a) Thats the study I want to read about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Once again, that's completely false.  In one sentence you state a completely fabricated and unsupported claim, and in point number 3.....   the second point 3 you made, you state there is no study.  So if there is no investigation that determined it, from where are you drawing this paranoid fabricated conclusion?


----------



## eots (Oct 3, 2010)

geauxtohell said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > Tony Perkins
> ...



 it is about drug companies trying to* legislate* themselves billions of dollars on a products* they* decide are good for* you..*.but you are just fine with that..


----------



## chesswarsnow (Oct 3, 2010)

Sorry bout that,






SmarterThanHick said:


> chesswarsnow said:
> 
> 
> > 1. Seldom does a child of a medical expert get *Autism*.
> ...





1. Inquiring minds want to know.
2. What you got?


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


----------



## eots (Oct 3, 2010)

SmarterThanHick said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > you say lack of vaccination..how vague
> ...



Homeless people die after bird flu vaccine trial in Poland
Three Polish doctors and six nurses are facing criminal prosecution after a number of homeless people died following medical trials for a vaccine to the H5N1 bird-flu virus.
Homeless people die after bird flu vaccine trial in Poland - Telegraph


This is a pro-vaccination website.  We just want fewer of them!
A 2004 investigation has revealed that 1 in 500 are born with a problem with
their immune system that could cause serious or life-threatening reactions when vaccinated.
(Journal of Molecular Diagnostics, 2004 May, Volume 6 no 2, Pp 59-83)

1980: 9 vaccines, autism is rare
2009: 36 vaccine$ before age 5
2010: 55 vaccine$ before age 6



Death By Vaccination


----------



## chesswarsnow (Oct 3, 2010)

Sorry bout that,


1. And then there's, *THIS*
2. Link and sample:Autism News & More: The Age of Autism: One in 15,000 Amish


"Washington, DC, Jun. 8 (UPI) The autism rate for U.S. children is 1 in 166, according to the federal government. The autism rate for the Amish around Middlefield, Ohio, is 1 in 15,000, according to Dr. Heng Wang.

He means that literally: Of 15,000 Amish who live near Middlefield, Wang is aware of just one who has autism. If that figure is anywhere near correct, the autism rate in that community is astonishingly low.

Wang is the medical director, and a physician and researcher, at the DDC Clinic for Special Needs Children, created three years ago to treat the Amish in northeastern Ohio.

"I take care of all the children with special needs," he said, putting him in a unique position to observe autism. The one case Wang has identified is a 12-year-old boy.

Like stitchwork in an Amish quilt, Wang's comments extend a pattern first identified by United Press International in the Pennsylvania Dutch country around Lancaster, Pa.

-- A Lancaster doctor who has treated thousands of Amish for nearly a quarter-century said he had never seen any autism. "We're right in the heart of Amish country and seeing none -- and that's just the way it is," that doctor said last month.

-- An Amish-Mennonite mother with an adopted autistic child said she was aware of only two other children with the disorder. "It is so much more rare among our people," she said.

-- UPI also found scant evidence of autism among the Amish in Indiana and Kentucky, two other states with sizable Amish settlements.

Ohio, with the nation's largest Amish population, appears no different. Asked if he thinks the autism rate among the Amish is low, Wang said: "I would agree with that. In this country, the Amish have less autism. Why? That's a very interesting topic. I think people need to look into it to do more research. This is something we could learn from."

Wang said the Amish boy's autism is of "unknown etiology," meaning the cause is undetermined.(



(CWN ALERT)****** In response to a question, he checked the medical chart and said the boy had received routine childhood immunizations.*********(CWN ALERT)




The Amish have a religious exemption from immunizations, and traditionally only a minority has allowed children to receive the shots. That number has been increasing, however, and Wang said most Amish parents in the area he serves do vaccinate their children, although that varies greatly by community.

The question arose because in Pennsylvania the Amish-Mennonite mother described what she said was a vaccine link to the cases. She suspects that her adopted daughter, who received immunizations both in China and again after arriving in the Unites States, became autistic because of the shots. She said a second child with autism in the community had "a clear vaccine reaction" and lapsed into autism.

Some parents and a minority of medical professionals think a mercury-based preservative in vaccines -- or in some cases the vaccines themselves -- triggered a huge increase in autism cases in the 1990s, leading to the 1-in-166 rate cited by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. In 1999 manufacturers began phasing out that preservative, called thimerosal, at the CDC's request.

Most mainstream medical experts and federal health authorities say a link between thimerosal and autism has been discredited, although the director of the CDC told Congress she is keeping an open mind about the possibility.

(****CWN ALERT*****) 
Wang said he did not want to offer an opinion about whether the Ohio boy's vaccinations might be linked to his autism." 
(*******CWN ALERT*****)



3. One child who was Amish gets *AUTISM* out of 15,000, and he was one who got the vaccines!!!
4. **FUCK YOU MOTHER FUCKERS!!!!!**



Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


----------



## SmarterThanHick (Oct 3, 2010)

eots said:


> it is about drug companies trying to* legislate* themselves billions of dollars on a products* they* decide are good for* you..*.but you are just fine with that..


You seem very focused on "damn the man who wants profit".  Good for you.  But wanting money and doing good are not mutually exclusive things.  You cannot disprove something is correct because someone is making money off it.  

There's a one TRILLION dollar industry in the US that is mandated by the government to give to children as well.  It's called FOOD. 

Your error is believing that the companies who manufacture these products are the ones who regulate their use.  This is simply not true.  Last I checked, the FDA still exists.  Doctors who independently read the scientific literature on double blind placebo or comparison drug trials ALSO have a strong hand in the matter. Or does your conspiracy theory extend to big pharma strong arming a federal organization to overlook specific data and guidelines?



eots said:


> Homeless people die after bird flu vaccine trial in Poland
> Three Polish doctors and six nurses are facing criminal prosecution after a number of homeless people died following medical trials for a vaccine to the H5N1 bird-flu virus.
> Homeless people die after bird flu vaccine trial in Poland - Telegraph



Poland?  Really now?  So you think the unethical abuse of untested medications on homeless people in a foreign country somehow supports your point that legitimate and ethically controlled medication trials tested through FDA regulations are bad in the US?  Do you really need me to point out the stupidity of your comparison?  

Hey, a doctor in England misused adrenaline on a patient who died.  Maybe that means all use of this life saving drug should be banned?

Ridiculous. 



			
				eots said:
			
		

> Death By Vaccination


This is just laughable.  Do you really need me to tell you that this site is a joke?  All it needs is a bad animated gif of like fire or something to really make it super awesome.  







Note how the site uses almost no sources, including but not limited to the table at the top of the one ridiculously long page.  Note how the uncited "data" are misleading, such as how that top table lists 7.8 deaths per "1000 under 5 yrs old", which has nothing to do with either autism OR the diseases which we vaccinate against.  Now how it makes completely unsupported claims such as "EVERY DRUG THAT HAS EVER BEEN RECALLED,
 HAS BEEN PROVEN TO BE SAFE AND EFFECTIVE BY THE FDA.", which is completely false: Drug Recalls | News & Info About Drug Recalls, Warnings, Alerts & Lawsuits

Yet another ridiculous link.


----------



## SmarterThanHick (Oct 3, 2010)

chesswarsnow said:


> 1. Inquiring minds want to know.
> 2. What you got?


On the topic of doctor's children and autism?  NOTHING!  You just made that up!  I have never come across an article which even remotely suggests doctor's children are somehow magically less susceptible to autism than matched counterparts.  I just did a quick search and found nothing that supports it either. 

But YOU made the claim.  Even if it's completely made up, it's your responsibility to support it, not mine. So inquiring minds want to know, what YOU got?



chesswarsnow said:


> 1. And then there's, *THIS*
> 2. Link and sample:Autism News & More: The Age of Autism: One in 15,000 Amish[/url




We've gone over this before. This is called "anecdote". It means no actual study has been done.  It means the uncomfirmed testimony of a single person does not outweigh the actual scientific controlled examination of this issue.  Have you even tried to look up Dr. Heng Wang?  He's a real doctor, but you can't find a SINGLE paper or comment from him that supports the article you just provided.  

In fact, EVERY link on the topic that you've ever read has come from a SINGLE person: Dan Olmsted, who is not a doctor, researcher, or has any medical experience, and who has been completely disgraced and disproven as a reporter.  

Quote from: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=4621


> Olmsteds most infamous gaffe was to be, as far as I can tell, the man who originated the myth that the Amish dont vaccinate and that as a consequence they dont get autism, a fallacy that Olmsted first reported in a two-part story entitled The Amish Anomaly (Part 2 here) and revisited time and time again. Of course, the Amish do vaccinate, and there are autistic Amish. In fact, *Olmsted even missed a clinic in the heart of Amish country that treats autistic Amish children*. Unfortunately, facts didnt stand in the way of a good myth, which has only grown in the five years since Olmsted first imagined it.



In fact, there has even been research that showed [URL="http://photoninthedarkness.com/?p=69"]there is a genetic predisposition to autism in the Amish population.  So how is it that Olmsted found no autism at all, despite known genes and an entire clinic which treats Amish autism?

Nonetheless, you're still looking at a completely different population.  The Amish, for example, have completely different rates of certain cancers.  Is that because of vaccinations too?  Well, no.  They lead COMPLETELY DIFFERENT LIFESTYLES, which as a whole contribute to their health in different ways and produces different results. 

With that being said, as I've shown from the MORE RECENT LINKS than the older ones you continue to provide all from the same one person, studies that actually systemically document autism by defining medical criteria find autism in the same rates in the Amish.  The more important study is looking at populations of average American children who have and have not been vaccinated.  As my previous link showed without any doubt, the rate of autism is the SAME between these two groups.  

I'm guessing you still haven't read that article though.


----------



## chesswarsnow (Oct 3, 2010)

Sorry bout that,


1. No way, and no fucking how!
2. I need actual numbers from studies that support that those who are Amish children, and not taking vaccines do infact get Autism, I am sure those taking the vaccines do infact get Autism at some rate, but at the same time, I know its less than 1 out of 150 children.
3. Not some blah, blah, blah,...its all the same because we just said it is.
4. Fuck you and fuck the medical community!!!!
5. I read those links, and its just bullshit, some so called researchers making claims, and not providing any solid proof, FUCK THAT!!!!!
6. All these stdies are going to be biased, because there's a whole bunch riding on these studies, and it had just better come back supporting the fucking vaccines!!!!
7. If not, then all the mother fucking *Junk Doctors* come out calling it a fraud!!!


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


----------



## eots (Oct 3, 2010)

SmarterThanHick said:


> eots said:
> 
> 
> > it is about drug companies trying to* legislate* themselves billions of dollars on a products* they* decide are good for* you..*.but you are just fine with that..
> ...


----------



## SmarterThanHick (Oct 3, 2010)

So it looks like you provided a news story that shows a drug company paying millions of dollars in damages when it was found their drug had a bad side effect.  And you think this somehow shows that the system is bad?  

Unfortunately, the world is not perfect, and drugs which appear to be safe enough in trials can later be found to cause problems and are pulled or regulated accordingly.  The problem is NOT that these companies pay for their mistakes and drugs are pulled when mistakes do occur.  A problem would be the drug companies being allowed to continue harming people knowingly without repercussion after the evidence has presented itself.  What do you suppose happens to doctor's prescribing habits if evidence came to light that showed a drug had horrible harmful side effects?

What you point to is the exception, NOT the rule.  You point to the few that have caused drama instead of the majority which are safe and effective.  Perhaps you believe all golfers are cheating bastards because you saw a news special on Tiger Woods?  Perhaps all eggs everywhere in the world for the rest of time are infected with Salmonella because of the recent FDA recall?

So once again, you seem to be drawing conclusion from outliers, tangents, and poor reasoning.  You assert that all vaccinations are bad because someone profits, when the two have nothing to do with one another.  You assert that the FDA and drugs are bad because of specific case studies in the past which do NOT represent the norm. Lucky for me, paranoid conspiracy theories such as yours do NOT affect the reason and logic of this country's medical regulations.


----------



## eots (Oct 3, 2010)

> SmarterThanHick said:
> 
> 
> > So it looks like you provided a news story that shows a drug company paying millions of dollars in damages when it was found their drug had a bad side effect.  And you think this somehow shows that the system is bad?
> ...


----------



## SmarterThanHick (Oct 4, 2010)

At some point you need to realize that all drugs have potentially harmful side effects.  It's as if you're citing a story about the police catching a criminal, and claiming the police system is bad.  NO!  They CAUGHT the bad thing. 

The system would be bad if it had no system of checks or balances in place.  Don't point to Europe as an answer, as their healthcare is different for a myriad of reasons, drug use not being one of them. 



> the list of harmful drugs and substances sold knowingly is a lengthy one


Oh?  I'd very much like to see this list.  Could you link to it please?


----------



## geauxtohell (Oct 4, 2010)

eots said:


> geauxtohell said:
> 
> 
> > eots said:
> ...



All the big pharma magic in the world can't change the pathology of HPV and the fact that it causes almost 100% of cervical cancers. 

I'll bet you wouldn't be bitching if they were pushing for a vaccine to prevent some virus from causing men's dicks to turn black and fall off.


----------



## chesswarsnow (Oct 6, 2010)

Sorry bout that,


1. Lets sum up.
2. Up until the late 1980's no one every really heard of *AUTISM*, and it wasn't because of some quack doctor didn't name the illness either.
2. (a) They had to give it a name because so many children were getting it.
3. Before then it was not heard of because it was almost never seen.
4. Seeing it was nearly never seen, it didn't have a name.
5. But during this time of the mid  to late 1980's the medical trades changed how they gave vaccinations to the school children, which then we began to see these *AUTISTIC* children show up.
6. So the medical trades kept doing what they were doing and adding more shots on top of more shots, over loading the children even more, till they have run it up too 1 in 150 children will likely get *AUTISM* now, GREAT JOB!!!!!!!
7. I hear they are shooting for 1 in 100, in the next five years.
8. AND THEY PROJECT TO GET EVER CHILD BY THE YEAR 2030 1 IN EVERY 1.


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


----------



## chesswarsnow (Oct 6, 2010)

Sorry bout that,


1. Well I blew everyone away with my *Sum Up Post*.
2. I guess I win!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
3. Yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!
4. Three cheers!!!!
5. Don't cho come back with a counter, I already proclaimed *VICTORY*!!!!!



Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


----------



## SmarterThanHick (Oct 6, 2010)

chesswarsnow said:


> 1. Lets sum up.
> 2. Up until the late 1980's no one every really heard of *AUTISM*, and it wasn't because of some quack doctor didn't name the illness either.


This is still false. Contrary to popular belief, just because you're too uninformed to have heard of a medical concept does NOT mean medical professionals are as unintelligent.  As GTH pointed out, autism was described hundreds of years ago.  Previous to increased correct diagnosis, autistic individuals were just considered slow.  



> 3. Before then it was not heard of because it was almost never seen.
> 4. Seeing it was nearly never seen, it didn't have a name.


Also proven incorrect. Similarly, I've pointed out other diseases which simply were not classified previously, despite being documented as existing. You tend to overlook these facts, pretending they don't exist.



> 6. So the medical trades kept doing what they were doing and adding more shots on top of more shots, over loading the children even more, till they have run it up too 1 in 150 children will likely get *AUTISM* now, GREAT JOB!!!!!!!


Also still misleadingly false.  While the number of needle sticks to complete the vaccination schedule has increased, the number of actual antigens exposed to each child has actually decreased.  YOU received hundreds more bacterial parts than any child today.  I'd have you read the evidence and manufacturing information about these vaccines in hopes you may educate other hicks around you, but I can't count on your literacy.  Instead, I'll highlight a single sentence from the paper, and encourage you to look at this chart from it. 

"Although we now give children more vaccines, the actual number of antigens they receive has declined. Whereas previously 1 vaccine, smallpox, contained about 200 proteins, now the 11 routinely recommended vaccines contain fewer than 130 proteins in total."




chesswarsnow said:


> Sorry bout that,
> 
> 
> 1. Well I blew everyone away with my *Sum Up Post*.
> ...



Sorry, you don't get smarter just because other people haven't responded to your stupidity.


----------



## chesswarsnow (Oct 7, 2010)

Sorry bout that,


1. Okay *ThickAsAhBrick*, just how old are you,......34,..i'm guessing...?
2. Then if your younger that 35 I would have to say, you don't know shit about what was going on on earth before 1985 at least!!!
3. So if so you are born around 1975, then your opinions on what was taking place then are *VOIDED*.
4. See I was here, I been around for a long time, you have not, you never knew anyone with *AUTISM* before 1975, if you were not born yet.
5. You more than likely know or have seen some one with *AUTISM*, just as I have these last twenty years, if we were to do a study on the oldest ages of kids who have *AUTISM* 98% of them wouldn't be over 35 years of age.
6. But guess what, no one will do a study on the age factors, and we never saw them before 1975, *PERIOD*!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!....
7. You have to admit this, I know its the truth and I won't allow it to be *WHITEWASHED*.


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


----------



## SmarterThanHick (Oct 7, 2010)

chesswarsnow said:


> Sorry bout that,
> 
> 
> 1. Okay *ThickAsAhBrick*, just how old are you,......34,..i'm guessing...?
> 2. Then if your younger that 35 I would have to say, you don't know shit about what was going on on earth before 1985 at least!!!


Oh is that how it works in your universe?  People are completely incapable of understanding or knowing anything about the world before they were born?  What, in your opinion, is the reason children take History in school then?  

Well I suppose by your logic, you can't tell me who the first president of the country is.  Perhaps no one anywhere knows, because "you don't know shit about what was going on on earth before [the year you were born] at least!!!" Do you wonder why people see you as a joke or doubt your sanity?




> you never knew anyone with *AUTISM* before 1975, if you were not born yet.


Once again, it wasn't diagnosed as autism back then.  It's no wonder you never knew anyone with the diagnosis.  Similarly, people never had the diagnosis of trisomy 21 in the 1800s, because they didn't know enough about genetics to understand that Down Syndrome comes from too many chromosomes.  And yet they still had kids with trisomy 21 even though no one had the diagnosis.

Just curious: how many autistic people do you personally know now?


----------



## chesswarsnow (Oct 7, 2010)

Sorry bout that,






SmarterThanHick said:


> chesswarsnow said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry bout that,
> ...





1. Like I said, your only 34, admit it and I might tell you just how many childern I know that have *AUTISM*.
2. And its children, I have never met an adult with *AUTISM*.
3. The problem is your very clinical, you've been brain washed my friend.
4. You think you know it all, but you were not there.
5. You been told a line of BS, and you bought into it.
6. Thats the way they educate in the *LIBTURD UNIVERSITIES/MED SCHOOLS*.
7. So you go along to get along, while I *ROCK THE BOAT*.
8. Its those like myself that change the world.
9. Its people like you who follow the status quo, like mindless robots who screw up childrens heads.
10. I will over come people like you.


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


----------



## Againsheila (Oct 7, 2010)

SmarterThanHick said:


> chesswarsnow said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry bout that,
> ...



It's been years since I started studying the subject and I would have to research it again, but I believe that it was first diagnosed in the 50's and then among the children of the well off people, those most likely to get their kids the vaccines.  They blamed it on the mother's saying they didn't bond with their children as infants.  They called it "the refrigerator mom syndrome".  All I know is that if some doctor told me my son is the way he is because I don't love him enough, he's not going to be able talk to anyone for awhile.

Autism existed well before 1975, though not in the numbers it exists now.  Some of those numbers have increased because they are now including "mental retardation" under the Autism Spectrum.  But that doesn't account for all of them.  When it was first diagnosed it only affected 1 in 25,000 people.


----------



## chesswarsnow (Oct 7, 2010)

Sorry bout that,






Againsheila said:


> SmarterThanHick said:
> 
> 
> > chesswarsnow said:
> ...





1. There it is, Refridge Mom!!!!!!!
2. They blamed the mothers for not talking to the children, no communications.
3. It was the crap they shot in the kids arms!!!!!
4. They had the money to pay for the shots, so they did, and protected them to death!
5. People who didnt have money were the lucky ones.
6. But the government steped in and are making sure everyone's children can and will recieve them, *BY LAW* in order to attend public schools.
7. Oh how ducky!!!!!!
8. "Get *ALL*the kids in here and lets pump them up with all these shots till they get burnt out!!!!", they exclaim.
9. Its sick man, really sick!!!!!
10. I know you don't get it *ThickAsAhBrick* but its true!!



Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


----------



## R.C. Christian (Oct 7, 2010)

It is also suspected to cause ALS. This was the case for my uncle. With no genetic markers in the entire family for ALS, we were all tested, the last thing my 100% fit 50 year old uncle did before the ALS killed him was get a flu shot. Coincidence? Not in his mind. Ditto for autism. There was enough evidence for a jury to recently award damaged to the plaintiff but I guess we're stupid and don't know what we're talking about and let us not forget big PHARMA would NEVER, NEVER hurt anyone intentionally which is why flu shots with the swine flu vaccine are labeled with a warning against giving the dosage to pregnant women. The same story is told again, again, and again but is dismissed as fantasy. But you have to wonder who is living in the fantasy world, your federal government whose ranks are filled with former pharmaceutical company management or the people who are actually the victims of their tyranny. Most of you idiots will by default side with your malevolent government eventhough it only exists for itself and couldn't give a damn about you.


----------



## THE LIGHT (Oct 7, 2010)

geauxtohell said:


> > It's no wonder when the Internet and television airwaves are full of personal stories that raise a question about the link. But the study that started the autism vaccine scare was recently retracted by the prestigious journal that published it 12 years ago, and the lead researcher had his medical license pulled.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Now if only we can get the drug companies to pay off Al Gore for us too so we don't have to hear any more about the link between CO2 and Global Warming.


----------



## SmarterThanHick (Oct 8, 2010)

chesswarsnow said:


> 1. Like I said, your only 34, admit it and I might tell you just how many childern I know that have *AUTISM*.


What does one have to do with another?  You're a nutcase.  I have no desire to have you know anything about me.  But if you really think age and experience is the end-all, I can assure you that your short-sightedness and lack of experience is by far trumped by all the old scientists who investigated this matter on a large scale, directly comparing groups of children who did and did not receive vaccinations, and found absolutely no causation. 

So which is it?  Is it large scale evidence that should determine the conclusion?  Or is it age that should trump here?  Either way you lose on both accounts. 



> 2. And its children, I have never met an adult with *AUTISM*.


Really?  Didn't you say it all started in the 80s?  What exactly do you think happened to those children?  Perhaps in your mind they're still children, 30 years later? 

Wait a minute now.  You just said that you're so old and have all this experience and knowledge on the topic, and you have NEVER met an adult with autism!?  By your logic, therefore, autism doesn't exist?  Or perhaps your conclusion is that the government secretly kidnaps all the autistic kids in the middle of the night, disposes of them, and pays hush money to silence family?



> 3. The problem is your very clinical, you've been brain washed my friend.
> 4. You think you know it all, but you were not there.
> 5. You been told a line of BS, and you bought into it.
> 6. Thats the way they educate in the *LIBTURD UNIVERSITIES/MED SCHOOLS*.


yes, I have that problem of being trained to individually question everything, seeking out unbiased standardized evidence to support claims isntead of going on conspiracy theories or just buying opinions of quacks.  THAT is how highly educated people are trained.  And what is the extent of your education and training?  High school GED?  Perhaps you've been diagnosed with schizotypal personality disorder?   Am I close?




Againsheila said:


> It's been years since I started studying the subject and I would have to research it again, but I believe that it was first diagnosed in the 50's and then among the children of the well off people, those most likely to get their kids the vaccines.  They blamed it on the mother's saying they didn't bond with their children as infants.  They called it "the refrigerator mom syndrome".  All I know is that if some doctor told me my son is the way he is because I don't love him enough, he's not going to be able talk to anyone for awhile.
> 
> Autism existed well before 1975, though not in the numbers it exists now.  Some of those numbers have increased because they are now including "mental retardation" under the Autism Spectrum.  But that doesn't account for all of them.  When it was first diagnosed it only affected 1 in 25,000 people.


Oh yes.  The incidence has still increased, despite the fact that we're diagnosing at a greater rate currently.  The question still remains of WHY incidence has increased.  Now it's true that vaccination came around the same time as the pickup, but as I've explained previously, the actual number of bacteria protein given to children today is a small fraction of the amount given historically, despite a larger variety of bugs.  In other words, we can prevent far more with far less.  

A number of things have increased around the same time.  Obesity. HIV. Antibiotic resistant bacteria. Why is it that none of these things are blamed on vaccines?  Oh yes, because only crazy uneducated parents are rabid enough to flip out without an ounce of evidence. It's what parents do, I get that.  But the data has come back.  And it's not the vaccines.  Furthermore, there's no benefit to anyone for such a conspiracy theory.  




R.C. Christian said:


> I guess we're stupid and don't know what we're talking about and let us not forget big PHARMA would NEVER, NEVER hurt anyone intentionally which is why flu shots with the swine flu vaccine are labeled with a warning against giving the dosage to pregnant women. The same story is told again, again, and again but is dismissed as fantasy. But you have to wonder who is living in the fantasy world, your federal government whose ranks are filled with former pharmaceutical company management or the people who are actually the victims of their tyranny. Most of you idiots will by default side with your malevolent government eventhough it only exists for itself and couldn't give a damn about you.


We don't give things to pregnant women as a default.  Regarding your conspiracy theory about pharmaceutical companies: it's crap.  It's hilarious because there's another thread on this forum where some other dumbass on the opposite end of the conspiracy theory believes pharma doesn't cure things because they make more money constantly trying to treat instead of prevent illnesses.  While he was completely wrong about the desire to find cures, he was right that pharma would make a ton more money treating illnesses.

So no, your crap idea that pharma does this to make money at the expense of causing autism is just foolish.  EVEN IF the government was influenced by big pharma, you're accusing them of completely fabricating the raw data that was published on this very case.  Do you really think it went that far when it is so easily disprovable?


----------



## R.C. Christian (Oct 9, 2010)

SmarterThanHick said:


> chesswarsnow said:
> 
> 
> > 1. Like I said, your only 34, admit it and I might tell you just how many childern I know that have *AUTISM*.
> ...



I'm not suggesting anyone fabricated anything, rather, I'm simply saying that big pharma doesn't give a damn, anymore than BP gave a damn about the citizens of LA, or my company, Hewlett Packard, gave a damn about the thousands of people it layed off and jobs they gave to some stupid Indians or Coasta Ricans. It's simply a fact of how degenerate people in this nation have become, and the fact that greed has completely dissuaded any sense of morality this nation ever had. This nation is dead, and rightfully so. Further, I don't believe a shot in the arm necessarily causes autism or in the case of my uncle ALS, but I think it can. And that is the difference between you and I: You trust science over people, period. You'd just a soon call the mother of an autistic a delusional, conspiricist bitch than lose enough pride to admit that you "might" be wrong. 

I mean I could expound all day on the WHO and the complete overreaction to swine flu, and subseqent dumping of those vaccines on the 3rd world,  bills in congress etc,  but people like you have a neat little sanitary version of how you "think" the world works and when it is challenged you act like a child whose parents just informed him that there is really no Santa Claus. It's better if we just leave you children with your convictions until you grow up enough to see the world for what it is, and it damn well isn't a good place.


----------



## SmarterThanHick (Oct 9, 2010)

R.C. Christian said:


> I'm not suggesting anyone fabricated anything, rather, I'm simply saying that big pharma doesn't give a damn, anymore than BP gave a damn about the citizens of LA, or my company, Hewlett Packard, gave a damn about the thousands of people it layed off and jobs they gave to some stupid Indians or Coasta Ricans.



Ah now we have the heart of your little emotional outburst: a big bad company did something mean, so therefore they all suck. 



> Further, I don't believe a shot in the arm necessarily causes autism or in the case of my uncle ALS, but I think it can. And that is the difference between you and I: You trust science over people, period. You'd just a soon call the mother of an autistic a delusional, conspiricist bitch than lose enough pride to admit that you "might" be wrong.


I trust large scale unbiased data coming from masses of people over the anecdote of a single person, yes.  That's what science is.  It means we define the forest for all the trees instead of from stories of just one or two. 

It has nothing to do with pride of admitting someone is wrong.  The basic tenants of science DEMAND that viewpoint be changed if the evidence shows something different, as seen in the CDC admitting swine flu was not as bad as predicted, as you mentioned. That's called evidence based reasoning, which you seem to lack.  

You had the details about santa all wrong.  When someone tells science Santa existed in the first place, we ask "how do we know that?"  It's people such as yourself who buy it outright to later be disappointed.  

So what you need to ask yourself is whether you follow the evidence of all the parents, free from individual bias, or if you are gullible enough to believe in the first person who tells you Santa is on the roof because sleigh bells were heard outside.


----------



## FurthurBB (May 11, 2011)

Barb said:


> The pharma lobby can get any of their scientists to write up whatever they want, and every supporting official greased with enough money to back them. I call bullshit!
> I witnessed first hand what happened after my son, born with an APGAR score of ten, got 3 in one day (as my objections were dismissed as ignorant or molly coddling by the public health nurse). He developed behavior problems, was speech delayed, and had troubles with reading growing up. He's overcome everything, but it didn't have to be so hard for him, and I blame the mercury he was needlessly poisoned with.
> One shot containing thimerosal (a preservative used solely to save the drug manufacturers money in packaging, as it would be completely unneeded if packaged in single shot doses) has more mercury than adults are advised to consume through the consumption of fish in any given week. The smaller the child, the smaller the liver, and the greater the risk. And it isn't just autism, it is neurological problems up to and including autism.



Most autistic children, have high APGAR scores.  My niece did, and my SIL told this same story about vaccines.  Since I know her story is not true, it makes it hard to believe it when I hear it almost word for word from someone else.


----------



## FurthurBB (May 11, 2011)

Againsheila said:


> geauxtohell said:
> 
> 
> > > It's no wonder when the Internet and television airwaves are full of personal stories that raise a question about the link. But the study that started the autism vaccine scare was recently retracted by the prestigious journal that published it 12 years ago, and the lead researcher had his medical license pulled.
> ...



I am a professional in the industry and I did not wait until my kids were three to get them vaccinated.  Where do you get this from?


----------



## FurthurBB (May 11, 2011)

Againsheila said:


> geauxtohell said:
> 
> 
> > Againsheila said:
> ...



It is not the same mercury.


----------



## Againsheila (May 11, 2011)

FurthurBB said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> > geauxtohell said:
> ...



The professionals in the industry here in Washington state, chiefly connected with the university.


----------



## Charles_Main (May 11, 2011)

geauxtohell said:


> > It's no wonder when the Internet and television airwaves are full of personal stories that raise a question about the link. But the study that started the autism vaccine scare was recently retracted by the prestigious journal that published it 12 years ago, and the lead researcher had his medical license pulled.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My Son has mild ASD (autism Spectrum Disorder). He is very High Functioning and very Bright. Above average intel. A near Photo Graphic Memory. If you met him and I did not tell you he had it, you would not know. It is very subtle. 

Anyways, Being a parent of someone who has a form of it, I have done extensive Research, and asked every doctor and expert I could talk to about it. IMO there is no connection between vaccines and Autism. The seemingly sudden rise in cases is almost totally attributable to our awareness of it. Millions of kids like my son went un-diagnosed in the past, or were miss diagnosed with Something else. 

IMO anyways.


----------



## Againsheila (May 11, 2011)

Charles_Main said:


> geauxtohell said:
> 
> 
> > > It's no wonder when the Internet and television airwaves are full of personal stories that raise a question about the link. But the study that started the autism vaccine scare was recently retracted by the prestigious journal that published it 12 years ago, and the lead researcher had his medical license pulled.
> ...



Years ago, when my son was first diagnosed, I got hold of an admittedly old book on autism.  Back then it affected 1 in 25,000 people.  They blamed it on the mothers, called it the refrigerator mom syndrome.  Now it's 1 in 100....That's a big increase and cannot entirely be explained by a change in diagnoses.


----------



## chesswarsnow (May 12, 2011)

Sorry bout that,


1. Pure crazy talk, Charles.
2. Children will *all* have it if we don't change what we are injecting them with as babies.
3. Might want to wait till the child is older before you start dumping all those poisons into them, give their bodies a chance to defeat them at least.
4. Small babies can't handle these drugs, it fries their brains.


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


----------



## waltky (May 26, 2011)

Researchers have shown differences in autistic brains...

*Autistic brains' 'genes differ'*
_25 May 2011 - The brains of people with autism are chemically different to those without autism, according to researchers._


> A study, published in the journal Nature, showed the unique characters of the frontal and temporal lobes had disappeared.  Different genes should be active in each region, but autistic brains had the same pattern of gene expression.  The National Autistic Society said the results could be important for future treatments.  Autism spectrum disorders, including Asperger's syndrome, are common and affect more than 500,000 people in the UK.
> 
> They are thought to be caused by a combination of genetics and the environment.  Professor Daniel Geschwind, from the University of California, Los Angeles, said: "If you randomly pick 20 people with autism, the cause of each person's disease will be unique.  "Yet when we examined how genes and proteins interact in autistic people's brains, we saw well-defined shared patterns. This common thread could hold the key to pinpointing the disorder's origins."
> 
> ...


----------



## eots (Sep 27, 2011)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrIM2hwrLoc]Robert Kennedy on the Vaccine Autism Coverup - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## chesswarsnow (Sep 27, 2011)

Sorry bout that,



1. This is very true, Bobby Kennedy Jr. is correct!
2. As I am.
3. Big drug industry if fucking up OUR children's heads.
4. I have been speaking out about this for years!



Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


----------



## eots (Sep 27, 2011)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38V_31p7jPI]Door to Door Vaccinations: Mom to Nurse, &#39;Get The F[/ame]


----------



## barry1960 (Sep 27, 2011)

SmarterThanHick said:


> Barb said:
> 
> 
> > The pharma lobby can get any of their scientists to write up whatever they want, and every supporting official greased with enough money to back them. I call bullshit!
> ...



Someone pours his heart out and you call him ignorant and provide some silly example. What level from Dante's Inferno will you be placed in?

No one has explains the geometric increase in autism. However the increase in autism does coincide with increased vacines. There is a financial interest in vacinations and CDC has interest in vacination to prevent outbreaks, even at the expense of collateral damage.


----------



## Father Time (Sep 29, 2011)

barry1960 said:


> SmarterThanHick said:
> 
> 
> > Barb said:
> ...



They are. The mercury you find in thimerosal (which has not been used in vaccines since the fucking 90s) is lower than a tuna fish sandwich and the idea that the pharmacy is rich enough and that nearly every single doctor is corrupt enough to be taking bribes is ludicrous.



barry1960 said:


> No one has explains the geometric increase in autism.



How we diagnose autism has changed.



barry1960 said:


> However the increase in autism does coincide with increased vacines.



And ice cream sales coincide with murder rates.


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## chesswarsnow (Sep 29, 2011)

Sorry bout that,



1. What is taking place is criminal.
2. Children's heads are being fried, for no good reason.
3. Its a fact.
4. The risk from getting some disease is less than getting *Autism*.
5. Now thats fucking sad as hell having written it.
6. Yeah we're screwed!
7. Self screwed!


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


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## SmarterThanHick (Sep 30, 2011)

chesswarsnow said:


> 3. Big drug industry if fucking up OUR children's heads.
> 4. I have been speaking out about this for years!


Yes, and you've been wrong about it for years.  That's how lack of education works.



barry1960 said:


> No one has explains the geometric increase in autism.


This is the only sentence you said that was correct.  NO ONE has explained the increase in autism, regardless of what correlation or causation is investigated. 

The correlation has been investigated across countless countries, including areas where it would be hard to make the paranoid conspiracy claim the data is being made up because of industry. 

There is no correlation.  When 100 children who get the vaccine are compared to 100 children who do not, both groups have the same number of autistic children.   You cannot find any such study where that is not the outcome.


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## chesswarsnow (Sep 30, 2011)

Sorry bout that,






SmarterThanHick said:


> chesswarsnow said:
> 
> 
> > 3. Big drug industry if fucking up OUR children's heads.
> ...






1. ^ Contributor of children's heads all across the planet,  being fried, ......



Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


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## SmarterThanHick (Sep 30, 2011)

so once again, the educated person has legitimate evidence, and the crackpot has....  NOTHING.


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## chesswarsnow (Oct 1, 2011)

Sorry bout that,


1. I will always live with a clear conscience about this topic.
2. One day you will have to learn you are one that supported the way kids get *all* these shots, and how millions of children's head got fried for you being the educated fool.
3. Yeah, you go on down to that reality, and you learn how to justify it in *your* head.
4. While millions of innocent children have to suffer for no reason other than some federal agency, and some rich drug company both being protected by laws that they lobbied to have put into place.
5. Yeah, you go on down that road, and just remember I told you about it way back when, *right now*.



Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


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## SmarterThanHick (Oct 1, 2011)

yes.  that is called blind belief.  i'm going on factual evidence.  you have fun with your clear conscious.  glad you're not in healthcare.


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## Father Time (Oct 1, 2011)

Yeah he has a clear conscious knowing that he's preventing kids getting vaccines against potentially fatal diseases because he thinks it may lead to a non-fatal disorder.

Clearly that's the right course of action.


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## chesswarsnow (Oct 1, 2011)

Sorry bout that,


1. You will see I shall prevail in this *FIGHT*!!!!!!!!!!!
2. You people will lose!!!!!
3. One day and soon, I shall win!!!!!!!
4. Ahhahahaha,....


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


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## eots (Oct 2, 2011)

none of my children where ever vaccinated for anything


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## chesswarsnow (Oct 2, 2011)

Sorry bout that,






eots said:


> none of my children where ever vaccinated for anything






1. I would wager none of your children have autism.



Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


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## SmarterThanHick (Oct 2, 2011)

chesswarsnow said:


> Sorry bout that,
> 
> 
> 1. You will see I shall prevail in this *FIGHT*!!!!!!!!!!!
> ...



take a guess which one of us sounds like a lunatic.


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## idb (Oct 2, 2011)

My understanding was that thimerosal was being blamed for the increase in autism.
I also understand that thimerosal is no longer used in child vaccines.
Shouldn't the autism rate be falling then?


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## chesswarsnow (Oct 2, 2011)

Sorry bout that,







idb said:


> My understanding was that thimerosal was being blamed for the increase in autism.
> I also understand that thimerosal is no longer used in child vaccines.
> Shouldn't the autism rate be falling then?






1. Its not the mercury based shots, like *they* claim it could of been, its the *combo shots*, double doses, and all the shear volume of shots, starting as babies from the womb, hitting certain children who can't handle it.
2. If its scaled back considerably, then we would see the numbers fall, not increase like we always see.



Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


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## SmarterThanHick (Oct 2, 2011)

yes, they blamed thimerasol, it was removed, and then found to not be the cause.  but crazy people don't believe it.


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## SmarterThanHick (Oct 2, 2011)

chesswarsnow said:


> 1. Its not the mercury based shots, like *they* claim it could of been, its the *combo shots*, double doses, and all the shear volume of shots, starting as babies from the womb, hitting certain children who can't handle it.
> 2. If its scaled back considerably, then we would see the numbers fall, not increase like we always see.
> 
> 
> ...



Here's another uninformed blind belief.  People see an increasing number of shots and point to that as the problem, but the actual number of viral proteins a kid is exposed to has exponentially gone down over the years, and the number of combo shots in no way influences the risk of autism, including kids who get zero shots.


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## chesswarsnow (Oct 2, 2011)

Sorry bout that,







SmarterThanHick said:


> chesswarsnow said:
> 
> 
> > 1. Its not the mercury based shots, like *they* claim it could of been, its the *combo shots*, double doses, and all the shear volume of shots, starting as babies from the womb, hitting certain children who can't handle it.
> ...






1. I call *bullshit*!!!



Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


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## eots (Oct 2, 2011)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AO8rVNLCGA&feature=player_embedded]Proof Vaccines Killing People - YouTube[/ame]


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## idb (Oct 2, 2011)

chesswarsnow said:


> Sorry bout that,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1. Thimerosal didn't work out
2. for the bullshit theorists
3. so
4. the argument changes tack
5. to
6. the volume of doses.
7. Pretty well expected

Cheers SirJames


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## Againsheila (Oct 3, 2011)

idb said:


> chesswarsnow said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry bout that,
> ...



Last I heard, thermerosal was still in the Hep B vaccines which is given to infants at birth.  I have never read anything to the contrary.


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## idb (Oct 3, 2011)

Againsheila said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> > chesswarsnow said:
> ...


Just a quick search found this from 2000.


> Preservative-Free Hepatitis B Vaccine
> 
> March 31, 2000.
> 
> ...


Institute for Vaccine Safety

I don't know who the IVS are, I'm sure someone will have an objection.


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## Againsheila (Oct 4, 2011)

idb said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> > idb said:
> ...



There is nothing in your article that says they are not giving infants the Hep B shot with thermerosal, only that there SHOULD be enough quantities to give them the drug without it.

Hep B is giving to babies before they even leave the hospital.  Women are told not to eat fish because of what the mercury may do to their unborn children but they purposely inject that same chemical into an infant once they are born????


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## idb (Oct 4, 2011)

Againsheila said:


> idb said:
> 
> 
> > Againsheila said:
> ...





> Since 2001, all vaccines manufactured for the U.S. market and routinely recommended for children &#8804; 6 years of age have contained no thimerosal or only trace amounts (&#8804; 1 microgram of mercury per dose remaining from the manufacturing process), with the exception of inactivated influenza vaccine. In addition, all of the routinely recommended vaccines that had been previously manufactured with thimerosal as a preservative (some formulations of DTaP, Haemophilus influenzae b conjugate (Hib), and hepatitis B vaccines) had reached the end of their shelf life by January 2003.


Thimerosal in Vaccines Questions and Answers


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## chesswarsnow (Oct 4, 2011)

Sorry bout that,



1. I want to thank those debating this whole vaccine problem.
2. I am not against *all* vaccines, just how, when, and how much we give these small bodies.
3. Its the amount stupid.
4. And time frame ofcourse.



Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


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## Againsheila (Oct 4, 2011)

chesswarsnow said:


> Sorry bout that,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I agree, if I had it to do over again, I'd do it completely different and perhaps, just perhaps, my kids wouldn't have autism.  

I'd like to see some statistics out of Oregon.  I hear they have made thermerosol in their vaccines illegal for the last few years.  Since my kids autism didn't show up until 2 and 1/2, I'm thinking we may not actually see a difference for another year or two, but I'm hoping there is a difference in Oregon and then we can show the entire country.

For everyone who claims the vaccines don't cause autism because their kids never got autism, I can point out someone that smokes that hasn't gotten lung cancer, does that mean cigarette smoking doesn't cause lung cancer?


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## SmarterThanHick (Oct 7, 2011)

Againsheila said:


> Hep B is giving to babies before they even leave the hospital.  Women are told not to eat fish because of what the mercury may do to their unborn children but they purposely inject that same chemical into an infant once they are born????


This is rather short sighted. Did you know Carbon MONoxide is deadly?  Yet it is in every molecule of Carbon DIoxide we breathe. Perhaps we should stop children from getting oxygen so they can't make carbon dioxide because it contains this deadly molecule?

No, that would be silly. Not all things that happen to have a single element in common are harmful.  There are safe and unsafe forms of carbon and oxygen, just as there are safe and unsafe forms of mercury.  Every study comparing groups of kids who receive vaccines with thimerasol with groups of kids who do not receive that preservative show absolutely ZERO difference in risk of autism.  Zero.  In all studies.  Across multiple countries. 



Againsheila said:


> I agree, if I had it to do over again, I'd do it completely different and perhaps, just perhaps, my kids wouldn't have autism.


No, they'd still have autism.


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## idb (Oct 7, 2011)

Againsheila said:


> chesswarsnow said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry bout that,
> ...



I'm sorry to hear that your kids are coping with autism.

Thimerosal has been all but eliminated from vaccines for a number of years as I understand it, but still autism rates are climbing.
That sounds pretty convincing to me - certainly more convincing than the 'evidence' presented by the critics.


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## Againsheila (Oct 8, 2011)

idb said:


> Againsheila said:
> 
> 
> > chesswarsnow said:
> ...



You evidence like the fact that autism didn't exist in China until we sent them vaccines?  Evidence like the rider attached to the Patriot Act at the last minute which protects Ely Lily, the makers of thermerosol from being sued specifically for causing autism?  Evidence like the fact that when autism first showed up in this country in showed up in the homes of the wealthy and upper middleclass, those most likely to afford the expensive vaccines for their children?

People assume the mercury has been "all but" eliminated from the vaccines, they are still injecting infants with vaccines before they even leave the hospital.  Why would you even inject a minuscule amount of mercury into an infant when you tell pregnant women not to eat fish due to the mercury in it?

I sure wish I had it to do over again.  My sister swears it's not the vaccines.  She's a nurse.  I think the health officials are afraid to admit it might be the vaccines because they don't want to admit culpability.  Also, they believe that the vaccines prevent outbreaks.  

I'm of the belief now that we have too many vaccines.  What the heck is wrong with a child getting chickenpox?  Measles?  Mumps?  We had those diseases when I was a kid and we survived.  Sure, it wasn't pleasant, but once it was over, we knew we were immune.  Like I said, if I had it to do over again, I would.

Do you know that at the time my son got the oral polio vaccine, the ONLY cause of polio in this country WAS the oral polio vaccine?  I asked for the shots but no one had them.  Now, all they give is the killed vaccine probably because parents like me complained and pointed out how stupid it is to actually CAUSE the disease you are trying to prevent and further more for a vaccine to be the ONLY cause of that disease.

The health industry isn't mistake proof.


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## chesswarsnow (Oct 8, 2011)

Sorry bout that,


1. A mind is a terrible thing to waste, its a *sinful act* to take a child and inject them knowing full well it can harm them severely, verily verily, their sin is not hidden, and this sin lays at the feet of *ALL* involved in perpetrating it on innocent children.
2. Parents are brow beaten to get their kids these injections, are being told that they need to protect their children with *ALL* these shots on their small bodies.
3. The medical industry can and more likely will *ALL* burn in hell for the good they think they are doing, but its a bold faced lie, and they know it.
4. Sure not *ALL* children are getting autism, so they think to themselves, "See, we saved them", but give them time folks, perhaps they can get *ALL* the children, instead of 1 in 112.
5. They know, again, they know its the injections, they don't care folks, its a crap shoot, "You pays your monies and take your chances", they claim.
6. One day we shall be set free from the grip of autism, and the only way autism will lose its grip is to actually change the ways and methods we inject the children, draw out the injections through out their first ten years of life, not *ALL* done before the children enroll in school at 5 years of age, doing that will end autism.



Regards,
SirJamsofTexas


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## eots (Oct 8, 2011)

if a insurance salesmen came to you  door telling you that you must by his insurance, you would tell him to fuck off and certainly suspect his motive was profit..not your well being but if a door door vaccination salesmen shows up your supposed to accept the the service and product and what ever they tells you about it and that it is for your benefit or your baby's


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## eots (Oct 8, 2011)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38V_31p7jPI]Door to Door Vaccinations: Mom to Nurse, &#39;Get The F[/ame]


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## eots (Oct 8, 2011)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fd1MVZYuO5g&feature=channel_video_title]Does the Government Really Want To Prevent Disease? - YouTube[/ame]


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## chesswarsnow (Oct 8, 2011)

Sorry bout that,


1. Smart lady.



Regards,
SirJamesofTexas


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