# Firearms question



## CMike

I am getting my concealed pistols license. 

I am trying to decide between a glock 19 9 mm and a s&w mp .40 caliber.

Suggestions?


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## dilloduck

CMike said:


> I am getting my concealed pistols license.
> 
> I am trying to decide between a glock 19 9 mm and a s&w mp .40 caliber.
> 
> Suggestions?



just between those 2 ?   no contest---glock


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## CMike

Why?


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## hjmick

1911.


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## Mr. H.

I just purchased the S/W 40ve Sigma series. It's not the mp but it's less expensive and I liked the feel much better. I've run about 100 rounds thru it so far and I like it. It has a long trigger pull but that's part of the safety mechanism.


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## Gremlin-USA

CMike said:


> I am getting my concealed pistols license.
> 
> I am trying to decide between a glock 19 9 mm and a s&w mp .40 caliber.
> 
> Suggestions?



Are you plinking or want stopping power?

40 cal and S&W is may choice, one of my Smith's is twice as old as Glocks have been in business and as true as the day I bought it


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## CMike

I appreciate the input.


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## Mr. H.

Mike- narrow it down to a half-dozen models then take the time to handle each one. If you're allowed, load a full clip into the pistol and see how it feels. Decide how and where you'll be carrying it as a concealed weapon and take that into consideration. For concealed purposes you probably aren't concerned about hitting a target that's 40 ft. away so why pay extra for improved accuracy?


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## CMike

I shot 50 rounds in the glock 19 and 50 in the s&w mp .40

I like them both, that's the problem.


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## hortysir

You don't think they're a little large for carry?


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## CMike

I think the glock would be easier for carry.


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## hortysir

And here I thought my .380 was a little heavy


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## CMike

The glock 19 is a compact.


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## hortysir

How many round clip?


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## Mr. H.

What the hell- buy 'em both!


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## CMike

15 in the magazine one in the chamber. Buying them both now is a bit overkill, forgive the pun.


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## hortysir

1 for work, 1 for play


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## CMike

If I buy both now, my wife might take one of them and shoot me with it.


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## hortysir

We'll sell her my .380 and I'll go get one of those Glocks too !!!!


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## CMike

GLOCK MODEL 19

Smith & Wesson M&P .40 - PoliceLink


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## hortysir

> also available, albeit only to law enforcement agencies, is  the model 18, a machine pistol with 33-round magazines.


sweeeeeet!!!


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## hortysir

CMike said:


> GLOCK MODEL 19
> 
> Smith & Wesson M&P .40 - PoliceLink


19 gets my vote


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## CMike

Yanno both is an option too. Why the 19?


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## JWBooth

Para Ord 14+1 .45 acp


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## eagleseven

CMike said:


> I am getting my concealed pistols license.
> 
> I am trying to decide between a glock 19 9 mm and a s&w mp .40 caliber.
> 
> Suggestions?


*If you intend to do lots of range shooting, get the 9mm, as the reduced cost of ammunition will enable more training.

*If you intend to use your pistol in common self-defense situations, get the 9mm, as you will be more likely to carry it (lighter, handier).

*If you intend to use your pistol in situations where the 9mm is underpowered, skip the CCW and purchase a 12-gauge or 5.56x45mm.

(while I like the .45 acp, I don't like it in a CCW gun. The police favor the .40, but only in open-carry)


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## Gunny

CMike said:


> I shot 50 rounds in the glock 19 and 50 in the s&w mp .40
> 
> I like them both, that's the problem.



First, consider which one you like best.  What's most comfortable for your hands.

Second, consider how you dress.  The idea behind "concealed" is self-explanatory.  If you wear shorts and t-shirts ... I'd go with a Walther PPK/S.

I carry a modified Springfield Armory M1911-A1.  If I so much as nick you, you're going down.  I modified the gun myself in the 1980's, and I can knock the balls off a gnat at 50 yards.  

Point is, you have to balance firepower/gun frame vs how you dress.  

Of the two handguns you mention, the Glock has the better reputation while the S&W has the more appealing price tag.  For concealed carry, and it's applicability self-defense-wise, I would say one is no better than the other.


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## Devin

Gunny said:


> CMike said:
> 
> 
> 
> I shot 50 rounds in the glock 19 and 50 in the s&w mp .40
> 
> I like them both, that's the problem.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First, consider which one you like best.  What's most comfortable for your hands.
> 
> Second, consider how you dress.  The idea behind "concealed" is self-explanatory.  If you wear shorts and t-shirts ... I'd go with a Walther PPK/S.
> 
> I carry a modified Springfield Armory M1911-A1.  If I so much as nick you, you're going down.  I modified the gun myself in the 1980's, and I can knock the balls off a gnat at 50 yards.
> 
> Point is, you have to balance firepower/gun frame vs how you dress.
> 
> Of the two handguns you mention, the Glock has the better reputation while the S&W has the more appealing price tag.  For concealed carry, and it's applicability self-defense-wise, I would say one is no better than the other.
Click to expand...




What did you modify on your firearm Gunny?


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## Gunny

Devin said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CMike said:
> 
> 
> 
> I shot 50 rounds in the glock 19 and 50 in the s&w mp .40
> 
> I like them both, that's the problem.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First, consider which one you like best.  What's most comfortable for your hands.
> 
> Second, consider how you dress.  The idea behind "concealed" is self-explanatory.  If you wear shorts and t-shirts ... I'd go with a Walther PPK/S.
> 
> I carry a modified Springfield Armory M1911-A1.  If I so much as nick you, you're going down.  I modified the gun myself in the 1980's, and I can knock the balls off a gnat at 50 yards.
> 
> Point is, you have to balance firepower/gun frame vs how you dress.
> 
> Of the two handguns you mention, the Glock has the better reputation while the S&W has the more appealing price tag.  For concealed carry, and it's applicability self-defense-wise, I would say one is no better than the other.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What did you modify on your firearm Gunny?
Click to expand...


I added a beavertail grip safety, full length recoil guide rod, adjustable trigger, extended safety and slide release tabs, installed Bo-Mar, low profile combat sights, and I completely disassembled the weapon and used jeweler's rouge to finish every internal part of the weapon.

I also added Pachmyr wraparound grips and have six McCormick, match grade magazines.


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## Ringel05

If the Glock feels better for you than get it, they're better than the S&Ws overall.  That said, I personally hate Glocks (Glock-in-a-box), the ergonomics are like holding on to a 2x4 nailed to a mouse trap.
I chose to go with the just as reliable, somewhat heavier, much less expensive and ergonomically friendly CZ82.  Fires a 9x18 (9 Makarov) round which is relatively inexpensive and is available in FMJ and JHP. 

The CZ82






My summer carry is now the Polish P64, chambered in the same round.  It's an inexpensive copy of the Wather PPK so it can be carried in pocket or IWB.  Had to change out the mainspring (simple job) to ease the stock extra heavy DA pull and it is pretty snappy with the 9x18 round but only cost me around $245 with the shipping, transfer fee, holster, extra mag and new mainspring.

The P64


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## Devin

Gunny said:


> Devin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> 
> First, consider which one you like best.  What's most comfortable for your hands.
> 
> Second, consider how you dress.  The idea behind "concealed" is self-explanatory.  If you wear shorts and t-shirts ... I'd go with a Walther PPK/S.
> 
> I carry a modified Springfield Armory M1911-A1.  If I so much as nick you, you're going down.  I modified the gun myself in the 1980's, and I can knock the balls off a gnat at 50 yards.
> 
> Point is, you have to balance firepower/gun frame vs how you dress.
> 
> Of the two handguns you mention, the Glock has the better reputation while the S&W has the more appealing price tag.  For concealed carry, and it's applicability self-defense-wise, I would say one is no better than the other.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What did you modify on your firearm Gunny?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I added a beavertail grip safety, full length recoil guide rod, adjustable trigger, extended safety and slide release tabs, installed Bo-Mar, low profile combat sights, and I completely disassembled the weapon and used jeweler's rouge to finish every internal part of the weapon.
> 
> I also added Pachmyr wraparound grips and have six McCormick, match grade magazines.
Click to expand...



Cool. Can you post a pix?


Ringel09 - Is the grip on the PPK/copy smaller than a Glock?


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## Gunny

Devin said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Devin said:
> 
> 
> 
> What did you modify on your firearm Gunny?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I added a beavertail grip safety, full length recoil guide rod, adjustable trigger, extended safety and slide release tabs, installed Bo-Mar, low profile combat sights, and I completely disassembled the weapon and used jeweler's rouge to finish every internal part of the weapon.
> 
> I also added Pachmyr wraparound grips and have six McCormick, match grade magazines.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Cool. Can you post a pix?
> 
> 
> Ringel09 - Is the grip on the PPK/copy smaller than a Glock?
Click to expand...


Dude, I'm a Marine.  I can customize guns.  I CAN'T post pix.


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## Devin

Gunny said:


> Devin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> 
> I added a beavertail grip safety, full length recoil guide rod, adjustable trigger, extended safety and slide release tabs, installed Bo-Mar, low profile combat sights, and I completely disassembled the weapon and used jeweler's rouge to finish every internal part of the weapon.
> 
> I also added Pachmyr wraparound grips and have six McCormick, match grade magazines.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cool. Can you post a pix?
> 
> 
> Ringel09 - Is the grip on the PPK/copy smaller than a Glock?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Dude, I'm a Marine.  I can customize guns.  I CAN'T post pix.
Click to expand...


Sorry Gunny, don't kill me. I didn't know ..................


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## Ringel05

Devin said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Devin said:
> 
> 
> 
> What did you modify on your firearm Gunny?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I added a beavertail grip safety, full length recoil guide rod, adjustable trigger, extended safety and slide release tabs, installed Bo-Mar, low profile combat sights, and I completely disassembled the weapon and used jeweler's rouge to finish every internal part of the weapon.
> 
> I also added Pachmyr wraparound grips and have six McCormick, match grade magazines.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Cool. Can you post a pix?
> 
> 
> Ringel09 - Is the grip on the PPK/copy smaller than a Glock?
Click to expand...


Yes, the grip is smaller, but I have very large hands and I have no issue with it.  The Walther PPK is chambered in a .380 which is why the P64 has such a snappy recoil, it's chambered in the larger 9x18 while being the same size and roughly the same weight as the PPK.


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## Ringel05

Gunny said:


> Devin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> 
> First, consider which one you like best.  What's most comfortable for your hands.
> 
> Second, consider how you dress.  The idea behind "concealed" is self-explanatory.  If you wear shorts and t-shirts ... I'd go with a Walther PPK/S.
> 
> I carry a modified Springfield Armory M1911-A1.  If I so much as nick you, you're going down.  I modified the gun myself in the 1980's, and I can knock the balls off a gnat at 50 yards.
> 
> Point is, you have to balance firepower/gun frame vs how you dress.
> 
> Of the two handguns you mention, the Glock has the better reputation while the S&W has the more appealing price tag.  For concealed carry, and it's applicability self-defense-wise, I would say one is no better than the other.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What did you modify on your firearm Gunny?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I added a beavertail grip safety, full length recoil guide rod, adjustable trigger, extended safety and slide release tabs, installed Bo-Mar, low profile combat sights, and I completely disassembled the weapon and used jeweler's rouge to finish every internal part of the weapon.
> 
> I also added Pachmyr wraparound grips and have six McCormick, match grade magazines.
Click to expand...


Fanatic!


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## Gunny

Ringel05 said:


> Devin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> 
> I added a beavertail grip safety, full length recoil guide rod, adjustable trigger, extended safety and slide release tabs, installed Bo-Mar, low profile combat sights, and I completely disassembled the weapon and used jeweler's rouge to finish every internal part of the weapon.
> 
> I also added Pachmyr wraparound grips and have six McCormick, match grade magazines.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cool. Can you post a pix?
> 
> 
> Ringel09 - Is the grip on the PPK/copy smaller than a Glock?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes, the grip is smaller, but I have very large hands and I have no issue with it.  The Walther PPK is chambered in a .380 which is why the P64 has such a snappy recoil, it's chambered in the larger 9x18 while being the same size and roughly the same weight as the PPK.
Click to expand...


At the time I had a PPK/S, the intent was a medium frame handgun.  The world of handguns is light years ahead of what was available then.  I actually mostly carried a S&W Model 13 (J frame) .357 magnum with a 3" barrel.

I also at one time had a Colt Officer's ACP, but it was heavy and the barrel so short it was like firing a .44 Magnum. None of the handguns in that era were anything but steel and my favorite attire at the time was shorts tank tops. 

I admittedly haven't kept up with the handgun world lately other than to browse.


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## Gunny

Ringel05 said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Devin said:
> 
> 
> 
> What did you modify on your firearm Gunny?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I added a beavertail grip safety, full length recoil guide rod, adjustable trigger, extended safety and slide release tabs, installed Bo-Mar, low profile combat sights, and I completely disassembled the weapon and used jeweler's rouge to finish every internal part of the weapon.
> 
> I also added Pachmyr wraparound grips and have six McCormick, match grade magazines.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Fanatic!
Click to expand...


You can now purchase the equivalent for around $1200.  At the time, you either did the work, or had it done.  Ed Brown now mass produces them and you can get the basic for the aforementioned price and go up to $3K or so if you want a race gun.

I paid $498.  for a stock, Springfield Armory M1911-A1 when the Colt equivalent was $700.


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## CMike

I think I am going to get the glock 19, and perhaps get the s&w mp at a later date.


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## eagleseven

On a side note, if you are looking for extreme conceal-ability, consider the new Ruger LCP. 6+1 rounds of .380 ACP in a 9.4oz package, less than an inch wide, five inches long. You can conceal this piece on the beach! Surprisingly, new models are only $300.

Has quite the kick, hence the nickname _noisy cricket._

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5DrJMW1qAI]YouTube - Ruger LCP[/ame]


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## CMike

I believe I am going to go with the Glock 19 9m for several reasons.

I probably won't carry very much.

The main reasons I am getting the Concealed Pistol's License is because


I am afraid Obama might take away the right

It makes it more convenient to carry it to the range, rather than unload it and store it in the trunk

To buy another gun I don't have to get a permit to purchase

I wanted to take the course so I learn more about it

I am going with the Glock 19 because


Although it's 9 mm instead of a more powerful .40, if I can place my shots better that is more important than the higher caliber

It will be more fun to shoot at the range

Glock is known for reliability and dependibility, and a lot of law enforcement as well as military use the Glock 19

A bit more about the gun...

Glock pistol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thanks for the input guys.


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## rikules

CMike said:


> I am getting my concealed pistols license.
> 
> I am trying to decide between a glock 19 9 mm and a s&w mp .40 caliber.
> 
> Suggestions?



make sure you go to a gun show to get your LIBERAL HUNTING PERMIT
and your targets with pictures of prominent liberals and democrats to target practice with

you're NOT a real conservative if you don't have those


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## CMike

Actually last time I went to the range they had a target that was a picture of OBL. I used that. My first shot was right between his eyes.

You are a wee bit paranoid.


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## CMike

I thought this was interesting too...

Glock vs. 1911


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## Ringel05

CMike said:


> I believe I am going to go with the Glock 19 9m for several reasons.
> 
> I probably won't carry very much.
> 
> The main reasons I am getting the Concealed Pistol's License is because
> 
> 
> I am afraid Obama might take away the right
> 
> It makes it more convenient to carry it to the range, rather than unload it and store it in the trunk
> 
> To buy another gun I don't have to get a permit to purchase
> 
> I wanted to take the course so I learn more about it
> 
> I am going with the Glock 19 because
> 
> 
> Although it's 9 mm instead of a more powerful .40, if I can place my shots better that is more important than the higher caliber
> 
> It will be more fun to shoot at the range
> 
> Glock is known for reliability and dependibility, and a lot of law enforcement as well as military use the Glock 19
> 
> A bit more about the gun...
> 
> Glock pistol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Thanks for the input guys.



Like a said in my first response (and to everyone who asks the same question) Get what you like, get what suits you, what you're comfortable with.  Learn how to use it so it becomes second nature.  I like the smaller caliber for the same reason you stated, rapid reacquisition of sight picture means more rounds placed more quickly where you want them.
I always suggest people learn combat shooting techniques, especially if they plan to carry and extra magazine or speed loader.


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## Devin

eagleseven said:


> On a side note, if you are looking for extreme conceal-ability, consider the new Ruger LCP. 6+1 rounds of .380 ACP in a 9.4oz package, less than an inch wide, five inches long. You can conceal this piece on the beach! Surprisingly, new models are only $300.
> 
> Has quite the kick, hence the nickname _noisy cricket._
> 
> YouTube - Ruger LCP





Nice firearm....but.......what about stopping power? Penetration? Will a .38 stop a 280lb behemoth high on meth who's swirling around like a hurricane towards you?

Instead, how about a 9mm Kahr PM9? Still small but could be more effective. What do you think?


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## eagleseven

Devin said:


> Nice firearm....but.......what about stopping power? Penetration? Will a .38 stop a 280lb behemoth high on meth who's swirling around like a hurricane towards you?


It's not a one-shot-stop unless you are very lucky, but that's why you have six rounds. The _.380 acp_ is comparable to the _.38 special_ in power, which police used for nearly a century.

If you are expecting situations where six rounds of .380acp/.38special are not enough, your dangerous lifestyle/job requires at least a machine pistol, if not a shotgun or rifle.



Devin said:


> Instead, how about a 9mm Kahr PM9? Still small but could be more effective. What do you think?


It's a matter of personal preference, imo. The best gun is the one you have with you...if you are happy carrying a PM9, or even a bulky 1911, on your person daily, more power to ya.

Regardless of caliber, bullets>knives>fists in any self-defense situation.


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## Devin

eagleseven said:


> Devin said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice firearm....but.......what about stopping power? Penetration? Will a .38 stop a 280lb behemoth high on meth who's swirling around like a hurricane towards you?
> 
> 
> 
> It's not a one-shot-stop unless you are very lucky, but that's why you have six rounds. The _.380 acp_ is comparable to the _.38 special_ in power, which police used for nearly a century.
> 
> If you are expecting situations where six rounds of .380acp/.38special are not enough, your dangerous lifestyle/job requires at least a machine pistol, if not a shotgun or rifle.
> 
> 
> 
> Devin said:
> 
> 
> 
> Instead, how about a 9mm Kahr PM9? Still small but could be more effective. What do you think?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's a matter of personal preference, imo. The best gun is the one you have with you...if you are happy carrying a PM9, or even a bulky 1911, on your person daily, more power to ya.
> 
> Regardless of caliber, bullets>knives>fists in any self-defense situation.
Click to expand...



Good points........but if you have to empty your firearm just to stop one dude, what if there are more threats coming at you? You've got to reload quickly and if you couldn't stop one, the others are already in your face. Just a thought.


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## eagleseven

Devin said:


> Good points........but if you have to empty your firearm just to stop one dude, what if there are more threats coming at you? You've got to reload quickly and if you couldn't stop one, the others are already in your face. Just a thought.


If you are expecting multiple threats, you are either in a warzone, involved with organized crime, or a survivor of the apocalypse. In each case, you should have an automatic rifle, not a pocket pistol.

What have you been doing, that you expect multiple drugged-up thugs bum-rushing you? Picking fights at the local mental hospital?


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## Devin

eagleseven said:


> Devin said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good points........but if you have to empty your firearm just to stop one dude, what if there are more threats coming at you? You've got to reload quickly and if you couldn't stop one, the others are already in your face. Just a thought.
> 
> 
> 
> If you are expecting multiple threats, you are either in a warzone, involved with organized crime, or a survivor of the apocalypse. In each case, you should have an automatic rifle, not a pocket pistol.
> 
> What have you been doing, that you expect multiple drugged-up thugs bum-rushing you? Picking fights at the local mental hospital?
Click to expand...



Ah, no. I live in an area that's got a lot of organized criminal gangs - on the streets, in the malls, on the highways. Coming into better neighborhoods. Cops are stretched and can't always be around. We have 'home invasions.' Heard of that?


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## eagleseven

Devin said:


> Ah, no. I live in an area that's got a lot of organized criminal gangs - on the streets, in the malls, on the highways. Coming into better neighborhoods. Cops are stretched and can't always be around. We have 'home invasions.' Heard of that?


I spent three years in the worst neighborhood of NY, where most shootings were never reported. In most muggings involving professional criminals, the victim never had a chance to pull a gun, as the perp announced his presence with a gun/knife to the head/neck.

My answer to home invasion?


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## Devin

eagleseven said:


> Devin said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, no. I live in an area that's got a lot of organized criminal gangs - on the streets, in the malls, on the highways. Coming into better neighborhoods. Cops are stretched and can't always be around. We have 'home invasions.' Heard of that?
> 
> 
> 
> I spent three years in the worst neighborhood of NY, where most shootings were never reported. In most muggings involving professional criminals, the victim never had a chance to pull a gun, as the perp announced his presence with a gun/knife to the head/neck.
> 
> My answer to home invasion?
Click to expand...




Sort of hard to carry around with a Martini and plate of olives.


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## eagleseven

Devin said:


> Sort of hard to carry around with a Martini and plate of olives.


Hence, the LCP in .380 acp! (which was also 007's preferred caliber)



A tiny pistol for travel, and a powerful shotgun for home. Simple enough.


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## CMike

For a home invasion I would use my 12 gauge pump, it's hard to beat that power and intimidation affect.


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## Mr.Fitnah

Bought a tarus slim a couple  of  days ago, the FN 5.7 was printing to  much
I dont like having to carry extra  mags .
But had to go  smaller, pretty comfortable with out the sting you  get from sub compacts.


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## CMike

I can't wait to get my glock 19 tuesday.

I have to wait 4-6 weeks for my cpl.


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## xsited1

CMike said:


> I am getting my concealed pistols license.
> 
> I am trying to decide between a glock 19 9 mm and a s&w mp .40 caliber.
> 
> Suggestions?



That's a tough one.  I always have a Glock 19 9mm with me because it's easy to carry and reliable.  You're probably going to have to flip a coin.  This guy likes the S&W:

Smith & Wesson&#8217;s New M&P .40 S&W Pistol

(I guess you already chose the glock.  Good hunting!)


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## CMike

Gunny said:


> Devin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> 
> I added a beavertail grip safety, full length recoil guide rod, adjustable trigger, extended safety and slide release tabs, installed Bo-Mar, low profile combat sights, and I completely disassembled the weapon and used jeweler's rouge to finish every internal part of the weapon.
> 
> I also added Pachmyr wraparound grips and have six McCormick, match grade magazines.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cool. Can you post a pix?
> 
> 
> Ringel09 - Is the grip on the PPK/copy smaller than a Glock?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Dude, I'm a Marine.  I can customize guns.  I CAN'T post pix.
Click to expand...



Gunny, did you ever meet Achmed in your training?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45Vf8MbbQRM]YouTube - Jeff Dunham - Achmed the dead terrorist - Training Camp[/ame]


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## Ringel05

Devin said:


> eagleseven said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Devin said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice firearm....but.......what about stopping power? Penetration? Will a .38 stop a 280lb behemoth high on meth who's swirling around like a hurricane towards you?
> 
> 
> 
> It's not a one-shot-stop unless you are very lucky, but that's why you have six rounds. The _.380 acp_ is comparable to the _.38 special_ in power, which police used for nearly a century.
> 
> If you are expecting situations where six rounds of .380acp/.38special are not enough, your dangerous lifestyle/job requires at least a machine pistol, if not a shotgun or rifle.
> 
> 
> 
> Devin said:
> 
> 
> 
> Instead, how about a 9mm Kahr PM9? Still small but could be more effective. What do you think?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's a matter of personal preference, imo. The best gun is the one you have with you...if you are happy carrying a PM9, or even a bulky 1911, on your person daily, more power to ya.
> 
> Regardless of caliber, bullets>knives>fists in any self-defense situation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Good points........but if you have to empty your firearm just to stop one dude, what if there are more threats coming at you? You've got to reload quickly and if you couldn't stop one, the others are already in your face. Just a thought.
Click to expand...


With the advances in ammo these days it's becoming a mote point.  Besides, have you ever been in a fire fight?  Your target is frequently moving, ducking, bobbing and/or weaving which makes faster target acquisition that much more important and much easier with a lighter caliber.  
What's even more important are the stats that show in the vast majority of incidences all you have to do is draw a sidearm and even armed perps take off running.  They don't stop to look at what caliber it is they simply realize they picked the wrong mark and hightail it the hell out of there.


----------



## CMike

Very good points.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah

Ringel05 said:


> Devin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> eagleseven said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's not a one-shot-stop unless you are very lucky, but that's why you have six rounds. The _.380 acp_ is comparable to the _.38 special_ in power, which police used for nearly a century.
> 
> If you are expecting situations where six rounds of .380acp/.38special are not enough, your dangerous lifestyle/job requires at least a machine pistol, if not a shotgun or rifle.
> 
> 
> It's a matter of personal preference, imo. The best gun is the one you have with you...if you are happy carrying a PM9, or even a bulky 1911, on your person daily, more power to ya.
> 
> Regardless of caliber, bullets>knives>fists in any self-defense situation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good points........but if you have to empty your firearm just to stop one dude, what if there are more threats coming at you? You've got to reload quickly and if you couldn't stop one, the others are already in your face. Just a thought.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> With the advances in ammo these days it's becoming a mote point.  Besides, have you ever been in a fire fight?  Your target is frequently moving, ducking, bobbing and/or weaving which makes faster target acquisition that much more important and much easier with a lighter caliber.
> What's even more important are the stats that show in the vast majority of incidences all you have to do is draw a sidearm and even armed perps take off running.  They don't stop to look at what caliber it is they simply realize they picked the wrong mark and hightail it the hell out of there.
Click to expand...

Heavy  frame help  keep things on target The FN was good for this as it has no recoil.


----------



## CMike

Ya, but it's hard to carry that concealed.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah

Yes sir ,the FN 57 is hard to hide. But it  delivers  21 rounds per clip  with  no recoil , I got away with it for some time at work  ,things changed  and  had to go with  a  smaller frame.

 I have a  bursa 17+ and love the way it works and wanted to go with the bursa 13 shot  but it was to thick.
So  the slim is a good choice for me, having had the pf9, P38T years ago and not been satisfied with the action.

you will go through phases as you  figure out  what works  and those things  may change.
I can  aim, and hit the target with   just  about  anything I pick up now  just because of the time  behind the wheel
back in the day I couldn't hit  anything  with  anything its  all about  practice and having your head in a good place.
Wearing a gun is rarely  comfortable,  but it  may give you comfort


----------



## xsited1

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Yes sir ,the FN 57 is hard to hide. But it  delivers  21 rounds per clip  with  no recoil , I got away with it for some time at work  ,things changed  and  had to go with  a  smaller frame.
> 
> I have a  bursa 17+ and love the way it works and wanted to go with the bursa 13 shot  but it was to thick.
> So  the slim is a good choice for me, having had the pf9, P38T years ago and not been satisfied with the action.
> 
> you will go through phases as you  figure out  what works  and those things  may change.
> I can  aim, and hit the target with   just  about  anything I pick up now  just because of the time  behind the wheel
> back in the day I couldn't hit  anything  with  anything its  all about  practice and having your head in a good place.
> Wearing a gun is rarely  comfortable,  but it  may give you comfort



I love the FN 57!  A friend of mine has one and there is no recoil at all.  The muzzle velocity of ~2000ft/s is something to behold.  Amazing weapon.  I'd get one, but they're too pricey.


----------



## Mr.Fitnah

Its worth it .Get 2  they come with 3  mags 63 total,
 the muzzle V lets  you service targets that  have fired on you before their package  arrives, nothing like it .


----------



## westwall

I'll paraphrase what a USAF PJ had to say about pistols...."when you are dealing with a handgun you are not dealing with serious firepower, I don't expect any particular pistol or ammo combination to do any particular thing.  Instead place the shot, assess the situation, repeat as neccessary."

My advice is to buy the weapon that fits your hand the most comfortably and if you can take it out for a test all the better.  I have a lot of handguns but the pistol I carry the most is a little .40 Firestar.  It is compact and makes a big hole and all things being equal a bigger hole is better.

 Also I am going to piss a lot of people off here but there is no such thing as knockdown power.  Newtonian Physics tells us that for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction....so the maximum amount of energy that your target can absorb is the amount of recoil you absorb in your hand, wrist and arm.  Put another way the ammo makers love to trot out their muzzle energy figures so taking the .50 S&W firing a 400 grain projectile at 1625 fps gives us a muzzle energy of 2,500 pounds.  What that says is that the projectile, when it hits, will move a 2500 pound object one foot.  What it also says is that you (who I will assign a random figure of 250 pounds to to keep the math simple, would be moved 10 feet), Peter Hathaway Capstick wrote about the problem in a very funny Guns and Ammo article from teh late 1970's called "The Shock Myth Exploded".  It is a good read if you can find it.

So find a pistol you like and practice with it.  All other will follow..the Army has an addage which says you fight the way you train, so train well, fight well.


----------



## antagon

CMike said:


> I am getting my concealed pistols license.
> 
> I am trying to decide between a glock 19 9 mm and a s&w mp .40 caliber.
> 
> Suggestions?



i dont like glocks.  might i suggest a springfield xd 9mm?  otherwise, if you have the cheddar and are a fan of one of the best handguns ever made, get a baby 1911.  

i have personal experience with those, but sig pros are narrow, taurus 709?


----------



## antagon

antagon said:


> CMike said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am getting my concealed pistols license.
> 
> I am trying to decide between a glock 19 9 mm and a s&w mp .40 caliber.
> 
> Suggestions?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i dont like glocks.  might i suggest a springfield xd 9mm?  otherwise, if you have the cheddar and are a fan of one of the best handguns ever made, get a baby 1911.
> 
> i have personal experience with those, but sig pros are narrow, taurus 709?
Click to expand...

ah, reading back i see you've settled on the glock.  i dont like them shits because the grips were made for chic-fingers. i'd have to swap the grips, i guess.  i got the xd instead.

i am part of the 'lots of bullets' school of thought; getting an extension for your pinky pulled my group together significantly when i had the glock.


----------



## Ringel05

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Ringel05 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Devin said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good points........but if you have to empty your firearm just to stop one dude, what if there are more threats coming at you? You've got to reload quickly and if you couldn't stop one, the others are already in your face. Just a thought.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With the advances in ammo these days it's becoming a mote point.  Besides, have you ever been in a fire fight?  Your target is frequently moving, ducking, bobbing and/or weaving which makes faster target acquisition that much more important and much easier with a lighter caliber.
> What's even more important are the stats that show in the vast majority of incidences all you have to do is draw a sidearm and even armed perps take off running.  They don't stop to look at what caliber it is they simply realize they picked the wrong mark and hightail it the hell out of there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Heavy  frame help  keep things on target The FN was good for this as it has no recoil.
Click to expand...


Yeah but most modern handguns today are lightweight, poly-composite materials which does nothing to help with recoil.  Ergo I prefer the older, heavier steel framed, like you said, much more control.


----------



## CMike

I got my Glock 19, I had fun shooting it today.

My wife shot it as well.


----------



## CMike

What is interesting is that the gun store person said that Obama has made gun sales sky rocket.

He said he will make Obama gun salesman of the year.


----------



## xsited1

CMike said:


> I got my Glock 19, I had fun shooting it today.
> 
> My wife shot it as well.



  Did it come with 2 magazines?  Mine came with a 10 and a 15 shot clip (er, magazine).


----------



## CMike

2 magazines, I am trying to get my wife to shoot it too. It's a lot of fun.


----------



## GHook93

CMike said:


> I am getting my concealed pistols license.
> 
> I am trying to decide between a glock 19 9 mm and a s&w mp .40 caliber.
> 
> Suggestions?


Pass on both!

Take a look at the Springfield XDM! I have shot the glock and it doesn't compare to the XDM. If you are looking for home protection go for the 45. If you are looking to go to the range go for the 9mm (much cheaper bullets), besides the 9mm had 19+1 Jihadis in each clip.

In the 9mm also consider the Beretta its a sweet piece also. Stay far clear from the Sigma 9mm!

this is a picture of my baby!


----------



## CMike

You are a bit late, but thank you.

For home protection I have a 12 gauge mossberg pump.

I really enjoyed firing the Glock 19 today.


----------



## GHook93

CMike said:


> For a home invasion I would use my 12 gauge pump, it's hard to beat that power and intimidation affect.


I think I am looking to buy the Saiga 12! Its a Russian made monster! Saw something on it during on the history channel. Semi-automatic 12 gauge shotgun. Clips come in 5, 10, 12 and 20! A shotgun with a clip. It comes with a claw on the barrel for knocking down doors. 3" barrel, however the lengthe of the barrel is only 19"! 

Atlantic firearms has the full package at $1,200.

Saiga 12 Shotgun Sale Atlantic Firearms.com IZ 109 Russian American Armory


----------



## CMike

Sounds cool


----------



## antagon

GHook93 said:


> CMike said:
> 
> 
> 
> For a home invasion I would use my 12 gauge pump, it's hard to beat that power and intimidation affect.
> 
> 
> 
> I think I am looking to buy the Saiga 12! Its a Russian made monster! Saw something on it during on the history channel. Semi-automatic 12 gauge shotgun. Clips come in 5, 10, 12 and 20! A shotgun with a clip. It comes with a claw on the barrel for knocking down doors. 3" barrel, however the lengthe of the barrel is only 19"!
> 
> Atlantic firearms has the full package at $1,200.
> 
> Saiga 12 Shotgun Sale Atlantic Firearms.com IZ 109 Russian American Armory
Click to expand...

 i thought i was a bad-ass with my tac-4.  

i'm hoping 10 in the tube will get me by.  the next gun-money i spend should be on a safe, then i should stop buying guns.  should.  

a 20 round can ?!?!!!!


----------



## CMike

That looks pretty wicked.


----------



## Gremlin-USA

Your Post got me thinking, while I love my S&W and the Baretta is Nice, it has been 5 or 6 years since my last purchase.

I was doing some research on the 40 cal. H&K P2000 Compact and the USP Full Size, the reviews have been Stellar! A little Pricey but probably worth every penny I would bet

Now, if I can only get the boss to approve the cash outlaw ..........


----------



## eagleseven

The Saiga? Communist Crap!

Support America's Allies. Buy the South-Korean USAS-12.






Twenty rounds of 12-gauge fun, *FULL AUTO*!


----------



## Ringel05

Here ya go.  Take your pick.






Or from here.


----------



## CMike

What do you all think is a good assult rife if I was to purchase one?


----------



## westwall

HK's are bombproof, FN's are really pleasant to shoot, AR's are OK but if you go that route get one of the DS Arms rifles with the gas piston system instead of the older gas tube setup.  Handle them all, find the one you like the best and buy the best example of that rifle you can afford.







CMike said:


> What do you all think is a good assult rife if I was to purchase one?


----------



## Ringel05

CMike said:


> What do you all think is a good assult rife if I was to purchase one?



It all depends on whether you like AK  or AR style long arms.  AKs generally use the 7.62x39 round and the ammo is relatively cheap and plentiful.  The rifles are usually much less expensive and their are numerous add on and replacement items available.  
ARs are usually much more expensive and come chambered in 22lr and up though the most common is .223.  They also have multiple configuration add ons.
Then there are the Cetmes, German variants.

The choice is yours.


----------



## xotoxi

Gunny said:


> Devin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> 
> First, consider which one you like best.  What's most comfortable for your hands.
> 
> Second, consider how you dress.  The idea behind "concealed" is self-explanatory.  If you wear shorts and t-shirts ... I'd go with a Walther PPK/S.
> 
> I carry a modified Springfield Armory M1911-A1.  If I so much as nick you, you're going down.  I modified the gun myself in the 1980's, and I can knock the balls off a gnat at 50 yards.
> 
> Point is, you have to balance firepower/gun frame vs how you dress.
> 
> Of the two handguns you mention, the Glock has the better reputation while the S&W has the more appealing price tag.  For concealed carry, and it's applicability self-defense-wise, I would say one is no better than the other.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What did you modify on your firearm Gunny?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I added a beavertail grip safety, full length recoil guide rod, adjustable trigger, extended safety and slide release tabs, installed Bo-Mar, low profile combat sights, and I completely disassembled the weapon and used jeweler's rouge to finish every internal part of the weapon.
> 
> I also added Pachmyr wraparound grips and have six McCormick, match grade magazines.
Click to expand...


After spending all that time and money on modifying your gun, how many times have you used it?


----------



## Ringel05

xotoxi said:


> Gunny said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Devin said:
> 
> 
> 
> What did you modify on your firearm Gunny?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I added a beavertail grip safety, full length recoil guide rod, adjustable trigger, extended safety and slide release tabs, installed Bo-Mar, low profile combat sights, and I completely disassembled the weapon and used jeweler's rouge to finish every internal part of the weapon.
> 
> I also added Pachmyr wraparound grips and have six McCormick, match grade magazines.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> After spending all that time and money on modifying your gun, how many times have you used it?
Click to expand...


Stand down range and count.


----------



## CMike

Ringel05 said:


> CMike said:
> 
> 
> 
> What do you all think is a good assult rife if I was to purchase one?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It all depends on whether you like AK  or AR style long arms.  AKs generally use the 7.62x39 round and the ammo is relatively cheap and plentiful.  The rifles are usually much less expensive and their are numerous add on and replacement items available.
> ARs are usually much more expensive and come chambered in 22lr and up though the most common is .223.  They also have multiple configuration add ons.
> Then there are the Cetmes, German variants.
> 
> The choice is yours.
Click to expand...


Honestly, I probably won't get one. I was looking at some at the gun store.

I have a shotgun for home defense and as you know I have my Glock 19 for carrying.

What would I do with it?

I appreciate that you responded to my question.


----------



## eagleseven

CMike said:


> What do you all think is a good assult rife if I was to purchase one?


AK-47 Variant (AKM)





AR-15 





FN-FAL Variant





HK G3 Variant





FN F2000





Which one you pick is a matter of taste and price. The FAL and G3 are the best at distance (largest round), the AR is lightest and moddable, the FAL and AK are most reliable, and the AK is cheapest.

The F2000 looks super-cool.

P.S. Generally speaking, these won't be needed save in a collapse-of-the-government scenario, which is unlikely. But as the AK-47 can be found for as little as $400, there is no reason not to own one!


----------



## westwall

eagleseven said:


> CMike said:
> 
> 
> 
> What do you all think is a good assult rife if I was to purchase one?
> 
> 
> 
> AK-47 Variant (AKM)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AR-15
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FN-FAL Variant
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HK G3 Variant
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FN F2000
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Which one you pick is a matter of taste and price. The FAL and G3 are the best at distance (largest round), the AR is lightest and moddable, the FAL and AK are most reliable, and the AK is cheapest.
> 
> The F2000 looks super-cool.
> 
> P.S. Generally speaking, these won't be needed save in a collapse-of-the-government scenario, which is unlikely. But as the AK-47 can be found for as little as $400, there is no reason not to own one!
Click to expand...




I'll argue reliability with you.  The HK's are the only rifles to pass every Saudi test and that is the reason why they decided to equip their armed forces with them.  I used to have a HK21 and I broke a quarter of the bolt face off while doing a long string of shhoting.   The weapon hiccuped once, I cleared the jam and it continued to fire anothe 1200 rounds before I stopped to give it a rest.  By that time the bolt had over 80,000 rounds on it (which is why it broke) and obviously I retired the bolt head and got a new one.  But I have never had a single problem with an HK.  Had trouble with everything else, including AK's, I have a Maadi and it is real nice but I'll stick with an HK for any purpose.


----------



## CMike

I am a bit confused.

I did some research and found this chart.

Handgun Cartridge Power Chart - Condensed Version

I have a Glock 19, 9 mm.

According to the chart the 9x19 has more % One Stop Shot than almost all the .45s and .40s mentioned.

How is that possible?

Obviously, the bullet type varies a bit.


----------



## PatekPhilippe

CMike said:


> What do you all think is a good assult rife if I was to purchase one?



Fuck all the bullshit...if you got the coin...pony up for a .308 Sig Arms 550 like I got....or if you like 5.56 get a Sig 556...got one of those too...great shooter...a tack driver at 500 yds.  If you prefer AK actions then Valmet make some really nice variants. Of course...can't leave out the FN FNC.  The rifle is the most easily converted to full auto once the proper ATF procedures and federal laws are followed.


----------



## CMike

I started this thread by asking what handgun for my Concealed Pistol's License.

I went with a Glock 19.

As I was reading the articles about the Israeli commandos and the turkeys, I saw that the Israeli commandos had Glock 9 mms too.

From one of the articles.

FOXNews.com - Israeli Commando Who Shot Six Activists in Aid Convoy in Line for Medal


As he landed on the ship's top deck, he said he saw three of his superior officers who had landed ahead of him lying wounded, one with a bullet wound to the stomach, another shot in the knee and the third beaten unconscious.

Taking charge, he formed his men in a perimeter around the wounded, pulled his 9mm Glock pistol and opened fire on passengers he accused of shooting at the boarding party with guns taken off the first soldiers, who had been overwhelmed as they landed one by one.


----------



## antagon

CMike said:


> What do you all think is a good assult rife if I was to purchase one?



bushmasters, buddy.  quality, man, and nice designs. cheap and ready .223s so that you can have fun at the range.


----------



## GunsBeerFreedom

antagon said:


> CMike said:
> 
> 
> 
> What do you all think is a good assult rife if I was to purchase one?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bushmasters, buddy.  quality, man, and nice designs. cheap and ready .223s so that you can have fun at the range.
Click to expand...


Bushmaster isn't what many would call "quality". They're not bad, but for the price you can build your own, or if you're lazy, buy a S&W M&P15.

And assault rifle isn't the proper term. They lack the select fire capability. The proper term is either SUR (Sport utility Rifle) or EBR (Evil Black Rifle).


----------



## PatekPhilippe

GunsBeerFreedom said:


> antagon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CMike said:
> 
> 
> 
> What do you all think is a good assult rife if I was to purchase one?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bushmasters, buddy.  quality, man, and nice designs. cheap and ready .223s so that you can have fun at the range.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Bushmaster isn't what many would call "quality". They're not bad, but for the price you can build your own, or if you're lazy, buy a S&W M&P15.
> 
> And assault rifle isn't the proper term. They lack the select fire capability. The proper term is either SUR (Sport utility Rifle) or EBR (Evil Black Rifle).
Click to expand...


Thank you...you get what you pay for...look at the MTBF numbers as well. SigArms can't be beat.


----------



## antagon

GunsBeerFreedom said:


> antagon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CMike said:
> 
> 
> 
> What do you all think is a good assult rife if I was to purchase one?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bushmasters, buddy.  quality, man, and nice designs. cheap and ready .223s so that you can have fun at the range.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Bushmaster isn't what many would call "quality". They're not bad, but for the price you can build your own, or if you're lazy, buy a S&W M&P15.
> 
> And assault rifle isn't the proper term. They lack the select fire capability. The proper term is either SUR (Sport utility Rifle) or EBR (Evil Black Rifle).
Click to expand...


many who might build their own firearms are more into building guns than many who merely care to use them.

i've owned two bushmasters, now one, and can vouch for their quality.  the mp15 is similar enough to my carbon 15 to make it a matter of brand preference.  i think the smith is cheaper, but the bushmaster is lighter.  the US military and remington have chosen the bushmaster brand for their quality specifically in this class.  i couldn't argue.

all the same, this is the bracket of compact assault rifles which i would suggest, CMike.  the biggest factor is why you want it.  you dont want to leave kel-tec and american made ak47 derivatives out of the running, either. just remember that while 7.62s are fun to shoot at the range, they are more expensive to shoot, too.  the kel-tec is the most practical weapon to use indoors, like in the confines of your house, while still delivering 223s. (compact size over aim (you have 30 rounds))  i have bagged rabbits with my carb15, then popped the stalk off and put it in a backpack.  rabbits let you get close, then stop to watch you, so i'm not saying i know much about hunting.  i'm more the fishing type.  i did eat good and had a great time with a lil rifle-ish semi like the bushmaster, tho.


----------



## Devin

Mr.Fitnah said:


> Yes sir ,the FN 57 is hard to hide. But it  delivers  21 rounds per clip  with  no recoil , I got away with it for some time at work  ,things changed  and  had to go with  a  smaller frame.
> 
> I have a  bursa 17+ and love the way it works and wanted to go with the bursa 13 shot  but it was to thick.
> So  the slim is a good choice for me, having had the pf9, P38T years ago and not been satisfied with the action.
> 
> you will go through phases as you  figure out  what works  and those things  may change.
> I can  aim, and hit the target with   just  about  anything I pick up now  just because of the time  behind the wheel
> back in the day I couldn't hit  anything  with  anything its  all about  practice and having your head in a good place.
> Wearing a gun is rarely  comfortable,  but it  may give you comfort




FNs got a lot of good & bad press. Composite materials, steel where it counts. 
20 or 30 round mags; not bad. Ammo not as cheap as 9mm though. I would like to
test this one on the range. 

Unfortunately this is the firearm used by Nadal Hassan the Ft. Hood jihadist shooter
and there is another flurry of activity around this brand........because the Mexican drug
cartels use this weapon. Notorious for penetrating multiple kevlar vests. And we know
how bad THAT scene is along our southern border.


----------



## eagleseven

CMike said:


> I am a bit confused.
> 
> I did some research and found this chart.
> 
> Handgun Cartridge Power Chart - Condensed Version
> 
> I have a Glock 19, 9 mm.
> 
> According to the chart the 9x19 has more % One Stop Shot than almost all the .45s and .40s mentioned.
> 
> How is that possible?
> 
> Obviously, the bullet type varies a bit.


The 9mm rounds listed in the chart are JHP +P, meaning high-power hollow-point (read:expanding) rounds, while the .45 acp are standard-load rounds. Note that the standard .45 acp JHP functioned statistically identical to the 9mm JHP +P rounds.

In other words, they were comparing the most-expensive 9mm rounds money can buy to run-of-the-mill .45 acp rounds.

---

This is why these caliber discussions are rather obsolete. With the introduction of "glaser" ammunition, a tiny .38 glaser can do as much (if not more) tissue damage as a .45 FMJ.






Yes, the glaser round is filled with birdshot that is released upon impact. Each glaser round is like firing a small-bore shotgun into your target at point-blank range.


----------



## CMike

Why would the stats for the hollow points for a 9 mm and a .45 be the same?


----------



## antagon

hollow points expand, exerting stopping power.  conventional rounds don't expand, exerting penetrating power.


----------



## CMike

I know. Both are hollow points.


----------



## eagleseven

CMike said:


> Why would the stats for the hollow points for a 9 mm and a .45 be the same?


Because we are looking at one-shot-stop percentages.

Both a 4000-pound bomb and a 8000-pound bomb have 100% one-shot-stop percentages...they will both kill you with a direct hit. Still, the 8000-pound bomb is more destructive.


----------



## CMike

But the are both not 100%. they are about 91%.


----------



## eagleseven

CMike said:


> But the are both not 100%. they are about 91%.


Without knowing the methodologies used (and it says the data is from multiple sources), it is impossible to determine the statistical significance of that gap.

Even the experts still fight on the best way to calculate stopping power...because the human body is a complex system. These numbers are likely built upon incorrect assumptions about the human body.

Taking a 9mm to the stomach will produce _far_ different results than taking a 9mm to the heart, aorta, or trachea, yet they are all considered "torso shots" in many models. Hitting the spinal cord with any caliber round will likely induce shock.


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## westwall

antagon said:


> hollow points expand, exerting stopping power.  conventional rounds don't expand, exerting penetrating power.






Hollow points expand and that causes more damage (normally through the tearing and severing of blood vessels), there is however no such thing as stopping power.  For someone to be stopped by a bullet they have to either drop do to shock (the physiological kind) or because of pain.  Or simply a morale fail, some people just don't like getting shot!  

The only 100% way someone drops is through exanguination (bleeding out).  Bigger bullets do more blood vessel damage so causing more rapid blood loss.  People love to point out how big the temporary wound cavity is but they seem to forget that it is temporary!  The only thing that really matters is the permanent wound cavity.  The bigger the permanent wound cavity the worse off (and the better off you are) the bad guy is.

The most important factor in all of those charts is where the bullet struck the target....and for the vast majority of them that data isn't included, so any chart that doesn't have that data is pretty much useless.  Someone shot in the head by a .45 ball is going to be stopped far more frequently than someone shot in the foot by the most expensive hollow point.


----------



## xsited1

eagleseven said:


> CMike said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am a bit confused.
> 
> I did some research and found this chart.
> 
> Handgun Cartridge Power Chart - Condensed Version
> 
> I have a Glock 19, 9 mm.
> 
> According to the chart the 9x19 has more % One Stop Shot than almost all the .45s and .40s mentioned.
> 
> How is that possible?
> 
> Obviously, the bullet type varies a bit.
> 
> 
> 
> The 9mm rounds listed in the chart are JHP +P, meaning high-power hollow-point (read:expanding) rounds, while the .45 acp are standard-load rounds. Note that the standard .45 acp JHP functioned statistically identical to the 9mm JHP +P rounds.
> 
> In other words, they were comparing the most-expensive 9mm rounds money can buy to run-of-the-mill .45 acp rounds.
> 
> ---
> 
> This is why these caliber discussions are rather obsolete. With the introduction of "glaser" ammunition, a tiny .38 glaser can do as much (if not more) tissue damage as a .45 FMJ.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, the glaser round is filled with birdshot that is released upon impact. Each glaser round is like firing a small-bore shotgun into your target at point-blank range.
Click to expand...


Where's a good place to buy glaser ammo?  Is there a good mail order place?


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## eagleseven

xsited1 said:


> Where's a good place to buy glaser ammo?  Is there a good mail order place?


If you look online, there are many stores that stock the ammo, but it is still rather expensive, as the inventors still maintain their patent rights. Though I can't vouch for their customer service, a quick search turned up these stores:

Glaser Safety Slug at Dakota Ammo - COR®BON/Glaser Self Defense and Tactical Gear

Glaser Safety Slug : Ammunition To Go

Corbon Glaser Centerfireammo for Sale Online at Discount Prices - Ammunition - Able Ammo

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRap6lI9QBc]YouTube - CORBON Glaser Safety Slug Product Demonstration Video[/ame]


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## antagon

CMike said:


> I know. Both are hollow points.


sorry, i wasn't paying great attention.

one shot stop is a subjective kill %.  hollow points have limitations which put the two calibers on par.  handguns should not be used with a single shot in my opinion, making this moot.  one could save a lot of money on ammo and reduce the chance for _*civil wrongful death liability*_ by running plain ol' hollows like law enforcement, then using them liberally, like law enforcement.  i would strongly suggest not loading high-lethality rounds in a conceal-carry (or any) weapon for the negative repercussions in tort.  you are not scott-free when you defend yourself with your pistol.  you are in at least civil trouble when a leg-shot kills someone because glaser shot entered their blood stream. that aim and fire one shot bit is for rifles and movie scenes.

what i was on about was stopping power.  see 'penetration' in gel tests.  a .45 will have more in store for you when you are fending against an armed assailant who is trying to aim a weapon or trying to get into stabbing range, for example.


----------



## antagon

westwall said:


> antagon said:
> 
> 
> 
> hollow points expand, exerting stopping power.  conventional rounds don't expand, exerting penetrating power.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollow points expand and that causes more damage (normally through the tearing and severing of blood vessels), there is however no such thing as stopping power.  For someone to be stopped by a bullet they have to either drop do to shock (the physiological kind) or because of pain.  Or simply a morale fail, some people just don't like getting shot!
> 
> The only 100% way someone drops is through exanguination (bleeding out).  Bigger bullets do more blood vessel damage so causing more rapid blood loss.  People love to point out how big the temporary wound cavity is but they seem to forget that it is temporary!  The only thing that really matters is the permanent wound cavity.  The bigger the permanent wound cavity the worse off (and the better off you are) the bad guy is.
> 
> The most important factor in all of those charts is where the bullet struck the target....and for the vast majority of them that data isn't included, so any chart that doesn't have that data is pretty much useless.  Someone shot in the head by a .45 ball is going to be stopped far more frequently than someone shot in the foot by the most expensive hollow point.
Click to expand...


 stopping power is quite realistic, i'd say.  used properly, that is multiple deployments of rounds to the abdomen, the relative stopping power of a .22 and .45 pistol is measurable and very real.  such power can make a life or death difference for the person trying to defend himself.  it will stop an approach; it will stop or mitigate the opponent's use of a gun or knife.

buck shot from a succession of 12 gauge shots will topple a porta-potty.  there is such a thing.


----------



## westwall

antagon said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> antagon said:
> 
> 
> 
> hollow points expand, exerting stopping power.  conventional rounds don't expand, exerting penetrating power.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hollow points expand and that causes more damage (normally through the tearing and severing of blood vessels), there is however no such thing as stopping power.  For someone to be stopped by a bullet they have to either drop do to shock (the physiological kind) or because of pain.  Or simply a morale fail, some people just don't like getting shot!
> 
> The only 100% way someone drops is through exanguination (bleeding out).  Bigger bullets do more blood vessel damage so causing more rapid blood loss.  People love to point out how big the temporary wound cavity is but they seem to forget that it is temporary!  The only thing that really matters is the permanent wound cavity.  The bigger the permanent wound cavity the worse off (and the better off you are) the bad guy is.
> 
> The most important factor in all of those charts is where the bullet struck the target....and for the vast majority of them that data isn't included, so any chart that doesn't have that data is pretty much useless.  Someone shot in the head by a .45 ball is going to be stopped far more frequently than someone shot in the foot by the most expensive hollow point.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> stopping power is quite realistic, i'd say.  used properly, that is multiple deployments of rounds to the abdomen, the relative stopping power of a .22 and .45 pistol is measurable and very real.  such power can make a life or death difference for the person trying to defend himself.  it will stop an approach; it will stop or mitigate the opponent's use of a gun or knife.
> 
> buck shot from a succession of 12 gauge shots will topple a porta-potty.  there is such a thing.
Click to expand...





Antagon,

Simple Newtonian Physics tells us there isn't.  There is so little difference between a .45 and a .22 (other than the size of hole they make) that shot placement is the single most important factor when dealing with solid projectiles.  I could go on and on about the relative values for projectiles and their effects but it would bore people to tears.  If you do want to do some digging on your own I suggest you head to the local university library and check out the Journal of Trauma.  They have numerous very scientific articles about bullets and their effects for the surgeons who have to patch the people up in their hospitals.

Glaser Safety Slugs do exhibit a form of stopping power however.  They will transfer 100% of their energy into a target provided the affected area is the torso or head.  A strike to the limbs on the other hand will have virtually no effect (other than the destruction of that particular area) but the energy transferred is still limited by Newtonian Physics to what the actual energy level is, the recoil energy minus the loss due to velocity loss.


----------



## PatekPhilippe

Sorry Westwall...you are wrong.  I will cite the use of .38 caliber revolvers in the Philippines during the Spanish American War as my example.  The rounds wouldn't stop the indigenous peoples who were enlisted to attack American troops so the Army called for a more potent pistol cartridge with STOPPING POWER....thus the advent of the now legendary Colt .45 automatic with it's unbeatable STOPPING POWER.


----------



## antagon

westwall said:


> antagon said:
> 
> 
> 
> stopping power is quite realistic, i'd say.  used properly, that is multiple deployments of rounds to the abdomen, the relative stopping power of a .22 and .45 pistol is measurable and very real.  such power can make a life or death difference for the person trying to defend himself.  it will stop an approach; it will stop or mitigate the opponent's use of a gun or knife.
> 
> buck shot from a succession of 12 gauge shots will topple a porta-potty.  there is such a thing.
> 
> 
> 
> Antagon,
> 
> Simple Newtonian Physics tells us there isn't.  There is so little difference between a .45 and a .22 (other than the size of hole they make) that shot placement is the single most important factor when dealing with solid projectiles.  I could go on and on about the relative values for projectiles and their effects but it would bore people to tears.  If you do want to do some digging on your own I suggest you head to the local university library and check out the Journal of Trauma.  They have numerous very scientific articles about bullets and their effects for the surgeons who have to patch the people up in their hospitals.
> 
> Glaser Safety Slugs do exhibit a form of stopping power however.  They will transfer 100% of their energy into a target provided the affected area is the torso or head.  A strike to the limbs on the other hand will have virtually no effect (other than the destruction of that particular area) but the energy transferred is still limited by Newtonian Physics to what the actual energy level is, the recoil energy minus the loss due to velocity loss.
Click to expand...


i dont believe in fancy gimmick bullets or careful shot placement for hand-guns.  since i'm not an assassin, or in a movie, none of that has anything to do with how i might use my pistol in a time of need. at the range, i try to tighten groups of five or so (4 and 3 w/ the 1911) to the massive abdomen area.  many times more effective lethality than any one silly magsafe round.

some simple physics is newtons third.  have you fired a 12 gauge slug? something like 28grams at 1500fps? equal and opposite reactions. my shotgun is an automatic, so i'm cheating with the recoil, the target is not cheating. it faces (82lbs.*ft)/s momentum from each slug.  do you mean to say that that is the same as a 1100fps 8 gram 9mm?

where momentum=m*v, you get (19.36lbs*ft)/s from the 9.  no wonder my baby 9 doesn't have a stalk.  no wonder some guns dont have as much stopping power as others.


----------



## CMike

Actually if you look at the originial study they used a test on goats.

How long it took for a goat to collapse after firing into it's lungs using various calibers.


----------



## antagon

this is a lethality assessment, not stopping power, though, CMike.


----------



## Intense

antagon said:


> this is a lethality assessment, not stopping power, though, CMike.



When the target shoots back, it's about stopping power. When the Godfather has an issue with you, a .22 in the head will take care of business.


----------



## CMike

Based on the definition it can be measured

Stopping power: Definition from Answers.com

You just have to be consistent how you measure it.


----------



## dilloduck

How about a starters pistol ?


----------



## westwall

antagon said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> antagon said:
> 
> 
> 
> stopping power is quite realistic, i'd say.  used properly, that is multiple deployments of rounds to the abdomen, the relative stopping power of a .22 and .45 pistol is measurable and very real.  such power can make a life or death difference for the person trying to defend himself.  it will stop an approach; it will stop or mitigate the opponent's use of a gun or knife.
> 
> buck shot from a succession of 12 gauge shots will topple a porta-potty.  there is such a thing.
> 
> 
> 
> Antagon,
> 
> Simple Newtonian Physics tells us there isn't.  There is so little difference between a .45 and a .22 (other than the size of hole they make) that shot placement is the single most important factor when dealing with solid projectiles.  I could go on and on about the relative values for projectiles and their effects but it would bore people to tears.  If you do want to do some digging on your own I suggest you head to the local university library and check out the Journal of Trauma.  They have numerous very scientific articles about bullets and their effects for the surgeons who have to patch the people up in their hospitals.
> 
> Glaser Safety Slugs do exhibit a form of stopping power however.  They will transfer 100% of their energy into a target provided the affected area is the torso or head.  A strike to the limbs on the other hand will have virtually no effect (other than the destruction of that particular area) but the energy transferred is still limited by Newtonian Physics to what the actual energy level is, the recoil energy minus the loss due to velocity loss.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> i dont believe in fancy gimmick bullets or careful shot placement for hand-guns.  since i'm not an assassin, or in a movie, none of that has anything to do with how i might use my pistol in a time of need. at the range, i try to tighten groups of five or so (4 and 3 w/ the 1911) to the massive abdomen area.  many times more effective lethality than any one silly magsafe round.
> 
> some simple physics is newtons third.  have you fired a 12 gauge slug? something like 28grams at 1500fps? equal and opposite reactions. my shotgun is an automatic, so i'm cheating with the recoil, the target is not cheating. it faces (82lbs.*ft)/s momentum from each slug.  do you mean to say that that is the same as a 1100fps 8 gram 9mm?
> 
> where momentum=m*v, you get (19.36lbs*ft)/s from the 9.  no wonder my baby 9 doesn't have a stalk.  no wonder some guns dont have as much stopping power as others.
Click to expand...





Here it is in a nutshell.  They like to tell you about muzzle energy right?  And it is measured in foot pounds right?

Here is a chart from Shooting Times
.44 Rem. Mag.

They quote a muzzle energy of 1650 foot pounds for a 240 grain projectile at 1760 fps.
What that means is that when the bullet hits an object weighing 1650 pounds it will move that object one foot.

The defintion from the dictionary is here....

Foot-pound - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

And Newtons Third Law of Motion states, 

 "To every action there is always an equal and opposite reaction: or the forces of two bodies on each other are always equal and are directed in opposite directions."

What that means is if the bullet really did have 1650 foot pounds of energy the recoil would toss a 1650 pound object holding it one foot.


----------



## PatekPhilippe

westwall said:


> antagon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Antagon,
> 
> Simple Newtonian Physics tells us there isn't.  There is so little difference between a .45 and a .22 (other than the size of hole they make) that shot placement is the single most important factor when dealing with solid projectiles.  I could go on and on about the relative values for projectiles and their effects but it would bore people to tears.  If you do want to do some digging on your own I suggest you head to the local university library and check out the Journal of Trauma.  They have numerous very scientific articles about bullets and their effects for the surgeons who have to patch the people up in their hospitals.
> 
> Glaser Safety Slugs do exhibit a form of stopping power however.  They will transfer 100% of their energy into a target provided the affected area is the torso or head.  A strike to the limbs on the other hand will have virtually no effect (other than the destruction of that particular area) but the energy transferred is still limited by Newtonian Physics to what the actual energy level is, the recoil energy minus the loss due to velocity loss.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i dont believe in fancy gimmick bullets or careful shot placement for hand-guns.  since i'm not an assassin, or in a movie, none of that has anything to do with how i might use my pistol in a time of need. at the range, i try to tighten groups of five or so (4 and 3 w/ the 1911) to the massive abdomen area.  many times more effective lethality than any one silly magsafe round.
> 
> some simple physics is newtons third.  have you fired a 12 gauge slug? something like 28grams at 1500fps? equal and opposite reactions. my shotgun is an automatic, so i'm cheating with the recoil, the target is not cheating. it faces (82lbs.*ft)/s momentum from each slug.  do you mean to say that that is the same as a 1100fps 8 gram 9mm?
> 
> where momentum=m*v, you get (19.36lbs*ft)/s from the 9.  no wonder my baby 9 doesn't have a stalk.  no wonder some guns dont have as much stopping power as others.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here it is in a nutshell.  They like to tell you about muzzle energy right?  And it is measured in foot pounds right?
> 
> Here is a chart from Shooting Times
> .44 Rem. Mag.
> 
> They quote a muzzle energy of 1650 foot pounds for a 240 grain projectile at 1760 fps.
> What that means is that when the bullet hits an object weighing 1650 pounds it will move that object one foot.
> 
> The defintion from the dictionary is here....
> 
> Foot-pound - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
> 
> And Newtons Third Law of Motion states,
> 
> "To every action there is always an equal and opposite reaction: or the forces of two bodies on each other are always equal and are directed in opposite directions."
> 
> What that means is if the bullet really did have 1650 foot pounds of energy the recoil would toss a 1650 pound object holding it one foot.
Click to expand...


Your example fails.  Here's why.  What is the weight of the projectile?  You cannot have an equal reaction when the object concentrating the force weighs .5 oz and the other object subjected to the force weighs 250lb.  Simple physics tells you that.  If this were NOT the case then when an artillery round was fired the cannon would be launched into space every time it fired.


----------



## antagon

PatekPhilippe said:


> westwall said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> antagon said:
> 
> 
> 
> i dont believe in fancy gimmick bullets or careful shot placement for hand-guns.  since i'm not an assassin, or in a movie, none of that has anything to do with how i might use my pistol in a time of need. at the range, i try to tighten groups of five or so (4 and 3 w/ the 1911) to the massive abdomen area.  many times more effective lethality than any one silly magsafe round.
> 
> some simple physics is newtons third.  have you fired a 12 gauge slug? something like 28grams at 1500fps? equal and opposite reactions. my shotgun is an automatic, so i'm cheating with the recoil, the target is not cheating. it faces (82lbs.*ft)/s momentum from each slug.  do you mean to say that that is the same as a 1100fps 8 gram 9mm?
> 
> where momentum=m*v, you get (19.36lbs*ft)/s from the 9.  no wonder my baby 9 doesn't have a stalk.  no wonder some guns dont have as much stopping power as others.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here it is in a nutshell.  They like to tell you about muzzle energy right?  And it is measured in foot pounds right?
> 
> Here is a chart from Shooting Times
> .44 Rem. Mag.
> 
> They quote a muzzle energy of 1650 foot pounds for a 240 grain projectile at 1760 fps.
> What that means is that when the bullet hits an object weighing 1650 pounds it will move that object one foot.
> 
> The defintion from the dictionary is here....
> 
> Foot-pound - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
> 
> And Newtons Third Law of Motion states,
> 
> "To every action there is always an equal and opposite reaction: or the forces of two bodies on each other are always equal and are directed in opposite directions."
> 
> What that means is if the bullet really did have 1650 foot pounds of energy the recoil would toss a 1650 pound object holding it one foot.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your example fails.  Here's why.  What is the weight of the projectile?  You cannot have an equal reaction when the object concentrating the force weighs .5 oz and the other object subjected to the force weighs 250lb.  Simple physics tells you that.  If this were NOT the case then when an artillery round was fired the cannon would be launched into space every time it fired.
Click to expand...


well, you will have an equal/opposite reaction, but because of the inertia expressed by the shooter, vs that of the projectile, as you said, that reaction sends the bullet racing away at 750mph, and the slide on the pistol only goes 80-90.


----------

