# Why do so many teachers leave  the profession?



## ClosedCaption (Apr 12, 2013)

Long hours, low pay and lack of their profession being considered "professional"

Approx 50% leave before they hit 5 years on the job

High Teacher Turnover Rates are a Big Problem for America?s Public Schools - Forbes

Discuss


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## Political Junky (Apr 12, 2013)

I suspect a lot more teachers will leave if asked to teach that Darwin was wrong, and other crap some states have put into their curriculum.


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## Wyatt earp (Apr 12, 2013)

long hours? lol how many damn days do they get off? and wtf? whats so hard sitting in a room of rug rats for like 6 hours? its the liberal dream job and  you get to teach them to be liberals so when they grow up they can vote for your unions and your pay check, how much more do they want?


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## Katzndogz (Apr 12, 2013)

They aren 't leaving voluntarily.  They leave when they are arrested for molesting the students.


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## Dugdale_Jukes (Apr 12, 2013)

If we can find out why, maybe there is an opportunity to organize the information and sell it to disgruntled taxpayers in districts? 

Probably the strongest sustaining aspect of quality public education when it was the best in the world (before about 1975) was relatively high turnover. Most districts could look forward every year to 5% to 20% new faces with the newest ideas and a lot of energy. All that vanished as public sector unions got more power and money and the systems got bloated and the focus turned more toward the nominal servants (certified staff) than the masters (taxpayers) or the product (graduates). 

By 1983, less than ten years after the sea change, public education was floundering (read, "A Nation at Risk"; a serious acknowledgement the quality of the product was in decline). It isn't teachers, it is bureaucrats, textbook mfgs and the load of nanny state mandated bullshit teachers deal with in order to get to the teaching part. 

It is laugh out loud funny that morons threw money at it for thirty years before a serious movement to gut the existing pe system developed.


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## Mr. H. (Apr 12, 2013)

"Before 5 years"?
I think that's the point at which teachers are either given tenure or are fired through RIF (Reduction In Force). The reason 50% leave is that they are fired, rather than granted tenure. The reason they're fired is because it's cheaper to re-hire someone fresh out of college. They then give them the "5 year run" and then fire their asses. 

It's a racket. I used to have such empathy for teachers when Mrs. H. got hired. Yes her days often extended late into the night working on lesson plans and grading papers. Sure the summers off were great, but it averaged out to a 40 hour week even considering those summers off.

Now- I could give a shit. It is a racket fraught with nepotism, cronyism, and favoritism.


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## Obamanation (Apr 12, 2013)

Political Junky said:


> I suspect a lot more teachers will leave if asked to teach that Darwin was wrong, and other crap some states have put into their curriculum.



um, Darwin said he was wrong...

You misinformed idiots crack me up!


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## Dont Taz Me Bro (Apr 12, 2013)

ClosedCaption said:


> Long hours, low pay and lack of their profession being considered "professional"



That's not what the article says at all.



> Teachers cite lack of planning time, workload, and lack of influence over school policy among other reasons for their decision to leave the profession or transfer schools



Low pay, my ass.  In many states teachers are paid higher with salary and benefits than most of the people paying them with their tax dollars.  Remember the Chicago teachers' strike last year?  The average salary in the Chicago public school system is $68,000.  Many states still provide a lifelong pension too.  In places like California, that can be six figures.

Long hours?  They get most of the summer off just like the students.  They get all the holidays off and most of the winter and spring break days.

I would argue the biggest reason is the lack of discipline of students in the class room, particularly in urban schools, and the idiot bureaucrats making decisions that don't make sense.


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## KnobbyWalsh (Apr 12, 2013)

ClosedCaption said:


> Long hours, low pay and lack of their profession being considered "professional"
> 
> Approx 50% leave before they hit 5 years on the job
> 
> ...



Oh, I'm a 27 year vet and made damned sure my kids never even better consider it as a career!  For one, this country no longer values education.  Being a simpleton smartass is more valued (see: your TV menu and surf some channels, up to and including the news).  For two, there are not many other professions that demand so much education for so little financial return.  Three, yea, the kids are increasingly more difficult, but try dealing with mentally crippled parents!  The hell are you supposed to reason with someone who washes down their Xanax with Captain Morgan?  Four, in the past 4 years since politicians decided to make unions the root of all that is evil in the United States - the trendy scapegoat - who'd want to deal with that?

There's many other reasons I advise any and everyone to stay the hell away from it.  And that's a damned shame.


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## Dont Taz Me Bro (Apr 12, 2013)

Political Junky said:


> I suspect a lot more teachers will leave if asked to teach that Darwin was wrong



What state requires that?


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## Mr. H. (Apr 12, 2013)

"No influence over school policy". That's for sure. Administrators, supervisors, and principals think of themselves as gods ruling over their fiefdom. They make me sick. Crooked bastards.


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## Obamanation (Apr 12, 2013)

I'd like to see common data on many other fields...

I'll bet that 5 years is common in most... I remember reading the same thing in a journal publication regarding my field (medical imaging) back in the 90s. Pretty sure that 5 years is the average for MANY MANY fields...


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## Obamanation (Apr 12, 2013)

Yeah, there isn't much honor in reprogramming children to be liberal fools to begin with.

We need to "reprogram" our education system to teach family values, like hard work and accountability!


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## ClosedCaption (Apr 12, 2013)

bear513 said:


> long hours? lol how many damn days do they get off? and wtf? whats so hard sitting in a room of rug rats for like 6 hours? its the liberal dream job and  you get to teach them to be liberals so when they grow up they can vote for your unions and your pay check, how much more do they want?



Actually, teachers work way longer Than that.  Typically the get to work a hour before school starts, then does 6-8 hours on class...then they have to grade papers.  If they spend 6 min per paper × 30 students = 3 hours more

You're talking about just that equals 11 hours just on the example above.  Not including if they tutor after schhol, coach, or meet with parents

So yeah, long hours


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## KnobbyWalsh (Apr 12, 2013)

ClosedCaption said:


> bear513 said:
> 
> 
> > long hours? lol how many damn days do they get off? and wtf? whats so hard sitting in a room of rug rats for like 6 hours? its the liberal dream job and  you get to teach them to be liberals so when they grow up they can vote for your unions and your pay check, how much more do they want?
> ...



You spoke the truth, but few here will believe it except those of us who have done it or know people who do it.  I'm afraid you're wasting your time with the truth with this bunch of haters.


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## Obamanation (Apr 12, 2013)

KnobbyWalsh said:


> ClosedCaption said:
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> > bear513 said:
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You wouldn;t know "truth" if it bit you in the ass...


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## Wyatt earp (Apr 12, 2013)

ClosedCaption said:


> bear513 said:
> 
> 
> > long hours? lol how many damn days do they get off? and wtf? whats so hard sitting in a room of rug rats for like 6 hours? its the liberal dream job and  you get to teach them to be liberals so when they grow up they can vote for your unions and your pay check, how much more do they want?
> ...



thats not work,..... sitting on you butt reading, heck you and I do that for a hobby....AFTER our real jobs......


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## ClosedCaption (Apr 12, 2013)

Mr. H. said:


> "Before 5 years"?
> I think that's the point at which teachers are either given tenure or are fired through RIF (Reduction In Force). The reason 50% leave is that they are fired, rather than granted tenure. The reason they're fired is because it's cheaper to re-hire someone fresh out of college. They then give them the "5 year run" and then fire their asses.
> 
> It's a racket. I used to have such empathy for teachers when Mrs. H. got hired. Yes her days often extended late into the night working on lesson plans and grading papers. Sure the summers off were great, but it averaged out to a 40 hour week even considering those summers off.
> ...



I bet you couldn't find one piece of info that backs up any of that cool fiction you just wrote.


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## Clementine (Apr 12, 2013)

I'm sure teachers have different reasons, depending on where they are teaching.   Maybe some smaller communities don't offer as much money and a more boring place to live.    Some cities mean having students speaking numerous different languages, making it impossible to do your job.    Some places are just run down, despite years of pouring more and more money into them.   Always wonder where the money goes, probably to shore up union coffers.     Maybe some end up with children who completely lack discipline.   We've all met those parents who didn't teach their kids a damn thing and said they can't wait to send them to school so they'll be the teacher's problem then.    

Lots and lots of reasons.    Our local paper publishes expenses of the city and the teachers at our schools who have been around a while do quite well, way better than the average job in this area.     Plus they get the entire summer off.     Many stay with it, so there has to be a draw.


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 12, 2013)

ClosedCaption said:


> Long hours, low pay and lack of their profession being considered "professional"
> 
> Approx 50% leave before they hit 5 years on the job
> 
> ...



Why?  Parents.  Either too much or not at all.


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## Wyatt earp (Apr 12, 2013)

Clementine said:


> I'm sure teachers have different reasons, depending on where they are teaching.   Maybe some smaller communities don't offer as much money and a more boring place to live.    Some cities mean having students speaking numerous different languages, making it impossible to do your job.    Some places are just run down, despite years of pouring more and more money into them.   Always wonder where the money goes, probably to shore up union coffers.     Maybe some end up with children who completely lack discipline.   We've all met those parents who didn't teach their kids a damn thing and said they can't wait to send them to school so they'll be the teacher's problem then.
> 
> Lots and lots of reasons.    Our local paper publishes expenses of the city and the teachers at our schools who have been around a while do quite well, way better than the average job in this area.     Plus they get the entire summer off.     Many stay with it, so there has to be a draw.



just a question, soooooooo where do they end up? flipping burgers at micky d's I suppose? or the evil human resource manager at a company? so many questions where these outlaw teachers ended up working at?


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## Wyatt earp (Apr 12, 2013)

or just a hunch these fed up teachers work at the local DmV?


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## Obamanation (Apr 12, 2013)

bear513 said:


> Clementine said:
> 
> 
> > I'm sure teachers have different reasons, depending on where they are teaching.   Maybe some smaller communities don't offer as much money and a more boring place to live.    Some cities mean having students speaking numerous different languages, making it impossible to do your job.    Some places are just run down, despite years of pouring more and more money into them.   Always wonder where the money goes, probably to shore up union coffers.     Maybe some end up with children who completely lack discipline.   We've all met those parents who didn't teach their kids a damn thing and said they can't wait to send them to school so they'll be the teacher's problem then.
> ...



Under Obama's unemployment numbers they probably do end up flipping burgers. Under every other president since Carter they go into new fields....


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 12, 2013)

The ex-teachers end up as the bosses of those far right reactionary crazees flipping burgers.


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## Crackerjaxon (Apr 12, 2013)

Why do teachers leave?

They are attendance takers and babysiitters.  They have no authority in the classroom, no academic freedom.  People have to be insane to put up with that nonsense.


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## ClosedCaption (Apr 12, 2013)

Plus most of them have to buy their own school supplies


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## jasonnfree (Apr 12, 2013)

Obamanation said:


> bear513 said:
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> > Clementine said:
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And bush left Obama such a rosy economy right?  Blame bush?  Of course.  The economies  of the USA and other countries were teetering on the brink when that half wit left office.
Obama's  had four years to make things right?   Not with republicans like ryan planning to thwart anything he did from day one.  This is ok with you geniuses that think you're so much smarter than teachers?   Elected politicians conspiring to  short circuit anything the newly elected president does to make him look bad so that they  can win the next election?  

url=http://www.vanityfair.com/online/wolcott/2012/03/The-Conspiracy-to-Commit-Legislative-Constipation]The Conspiracy to Commit Legislative Constipation | Vanity Fair[/url]


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## Crackerjaxon (Apr 12, 2013)

bear513 said:


> Clementine said:
> 
> 
> > I'm sure teachers have different reasons, depending on where they are teaching.   Maybe some smaller communities don't offer as much money and a more boring place to live.    Some cities mean having students speaking numerous different languages, making it impossible to do your job.    Some places are just run down, despite years of pouring more and more money into them.   Always wonder where the money goes, probably to shore up union coffers.     Maybe some end up with children who completely lack discipline.   We've all met those parents who didn't teach their kids a damn thing and said they can't wait to send them to school so they'll be the teacher's problem then.
> ...




Sales execs, real estate, private shools where they can actually teach, corporate communications, corporate trainers, military officers, grant writing, business plan writing, manufacturing engineers.

Lots of different places.


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## Obamanation (Apr 12, 2013)

jasonnfree said:


> Obamanation said:
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I love it... so many excuses for O to be the worst economic President since Carter (and maybe even including)...

The liberal way --- ZERO accountability!


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## Samson (Apr 12, 2013)

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


> ClosedCaption said:
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> > Long hours, low pay and lack of their profession being considered "professional"
> ...



Yeah, its difficult to believe college graduates would be stupid enough to take "low paying" jobs in teaching.

Teachers make some of the best starting salaries there are for government workers.


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## Wyatt earp (Apr 12, 2013)

JakeStarkey said:


> The ex-teachers end up as the bosses of those far right reactionary crazees flipping burgers.



Lmao.... and what world do you live in? dont the left always bitch about a "liviing wage"?


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## Wyatt earp (Apr 12, 2013)

Crackerjaxon said:


> bear513 said:
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> > Clementine said:
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Bwahahahahahahahahahah............most liklely being a 99 weeker collecting unemployment.


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## Cowman (Apr 12, 2013)

Because you have conservative parents who only blame you instead of placing some blame on themselves for allowing their kids to be such fucking slackers.

I mean surely it can't be their fault that little johnny is a retard.


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## Lakhota (Apr 12, 2013)

Obamanation said:


> Political Junky said:
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> 
> > I suspect a lot more teachers will leave if asked to teach that Darwin was wrong, and other crap some states have put into their curriculum.
> ...



Can you provide any "credible" proof that "Darwin said he was wrong..."?


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## ClosedCaption (Apr 12, 2013)

If things are so awesome then why are 50% leaving in 5 yrs or less?


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## Wyatt earp (Apr 12, 2013)

and fucking manufacturing engineers.? never met a college grad that could carry thy's tool belt.....what a fucking joke.


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## BlueGin (Apr 12, 2013)

bear513 said:


> long hours? lol how many damn days do they get off? and wtf? whats so hard sitting in a room of rug rats for like 6 hours? its the liberal dream job and  you get to teach them to be liberals so when they grow up they can vote for your unions and your pay check, how much more do they want?



Unfortunately they get to deal with the out of control brats they have created by taking away disipline in the school. Now the students run the show.  I have a good friend who is a teacher. That is her main complaint...unruly and abusive children (with obnoxious parents).


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## Mr. H. (Apr 12, 2013)

ClosedCaption said:


> Mr. H. said:
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> > "Before 5 years"?
> ...



I saw the shit go down year after year. Far be it for you to understand a first-person account. Go back to watching MSNBC.


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## Wyatt earp (Apr 12, 2013)

BlueGin said:


> bear513 said:
> 
> 
> > long hours? lol how many damn days do they get off? and wtf? whats so hard sitting in a room of rug rats for like 6 hours? its the liberal dream job and  you get to teach them to be liberals so when they grow up they can vote for your unions and your pay check, how much more do they want?
> ...



and AGAiN those that do, well they just do, those that cant, well they just teach. I could handle those rug rats in a heart beat. but hey I am just a 47 year old guy that fixes molding machines and programs robotics.... move along nothing you can learn from since I dont have a english masters....


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## kiwiman127 (Apr 12, 2013)

bear513 said:


> ClosedCaption said:
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What's the average size of a class? 25-35 students or more.  Do you think you could teach that many individual students,,,,all with different needs, intelligence, backgrounds and interests?  Sitting on their butts reading?  Did you sleep your way through school or were you just dazed and confused?


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## LittleNipper (Apr 12, 2013)

Political Junky said:


> I suspect a lot more teachers will leave if asked to teach that Darwin was wrong, and other crap some states have put into their curriculum.



Actually, I believe you are entirely wrong. My wife is a teach at a Christian school and what she likes is the ability to openly discuss topics from many different points of view without having to apologize. Yes, she speaks of the Bible and God, but the class is open to discuss Darwinism. The students get a much broader point of view and many do get turned on to science because they do not feel that scientists have all the answers and everything is cut and dry. Also, religious literature is just as easy to discuss as is secular. And children are encouraged to look at what the author has written from both a secular and biblical point of view... Public school teachers are constantly fighting a NARROW system (unless the school is very progressive). But the Public school teacher has to separate his/herself from his/her personal religious values and this is very difficult ----- especially when observing the obvious results of religious detatchment on a daily bases among the students who might be helped otherwise.


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## rdean (Apr 12, 2013)

You got serious presidential nominees like Santorum and Romney saying education is for snobs, the school system is trying to indoctrinate children and we need fewer teachers.  Then you have so many spoiled and awful children.  Imagine trying to teach science to the children of right wingers who believe the earth is only a few thousand years old.  Just look at what the right wingers on this board have called teachers and what they have said about them.  Why put up with it.  Go into some other line of work without the hassle.  Like bomb disposal or fireman.  After what Republicans have done to teachers, anything is better.


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## LittleNipper (Apr 12, 2013)

BlueGin said:


> bear513 said:
> 
> 
> > long hours? lol how many damn days do they get off? and wtf? whats so hard sitting in a room of rug rats for like 6 hours? its the liberal dream job and  you get to teach them to be liberals so when they grow up they can vote for your unions and your pay check, how much more do they want?
> ...



IIt might be assed that the parents are not that much older than the kids in many cases and that each generation since about 1963 has grown more unruly, abusive, and disrepectful. The kids take the cue from their parents who set the example. I would have been wipped by my dad if I talked back to any teacher. If I had a problem, I was expected to go to my parents and if they felt I had an issue they might request to see the teacher.


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## boilermaker55 (Apr 12, 2013)

Family values? You think it is the schools place to teach that when the parents have not values themselves and their children don't respect others and especially teachers. 
Look at all your posts and the posts of all the other right wing fanatics and their regards for teachers.
They are so easy to blame for the misguidance that parents  and then to blame the shortcomings of parents actually taking the responsibility of parenting.
Another rightwing tool of hatred for their own failures.




Obamanation said:


> Yeah, there isn't much honor in reprogramming children to be liberal fools to begin with.
> 
> We need to "reprogram" our education system to teach family values, like hard work and accountability!


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## LittleNipper (Apr 12, 2013)

rdean said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkjbJOSwq3A
> 
> You got serious presidential nominees like Santorum and Romney saying education is for snobs, the school system is trying to indoctrinate children and we need fewer teachers.  Then you have so many spoiled and awful children.  Imagine trying to teach science to the children of right wingers who believe the earth is only a few thousand years old.  Just look at what the right wingers on this board have called teachers and what they have said about them.  Why put up with it.  Go into some other line of work without the hassle.  Like bomb disposal or fireman.  After what Republicans have done to teachers, anything is better.



I don't wish to burst your bubble; however, when I went to grammar the class size was about 25 students (about 5 rows with 5 students per row). There were no teacher's aids back then. It was not perfect, but the teacher (usually a woman) kept law and order. Ralphie's teacher in (A Christmas Story) was not really far from reality if not the truth. Such was the norm until about the mid to late 1960's. As the older teachers began to retire as education began to go "modern." Kennedy with the Supreme Court ruined education with the SECULARIZATION of everything in public education. Everything from Reading to Music to holiday festivities was undermined. I mean it seems odd to me (at least) that Jesus could not even be mentioned at Christmas (and Christmas became a WINTER HOLIDAY). This is very narrowminded and abusive towards open discussion and logic. It was the start of dumbing down education, to pretend that there is nothing religious in the world worth discussing freely --- and the educators tried to develope an unnatural sterile environment.


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## The2ndAmendment (Apr 13, 2013)

ClosedCaption said:


> Long hours, low pay and lack of their profession being considered "professional"
> 
> Approx 50% leave before they hit 5 years on the job
> 
> ...



Can it be because too many non-education responsibilities are being mandated on them?


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## Londoner (Apr 13, 2013)

During the postwar years, the US Government channeled massive tax dollars into education. Teachers had high wages/benefits.

This resulted in the most well educated and most upwardly mobile middle class in history. 

Starting in the late sixties, wealthy individuals and corporations began pouring money into the Republican Party in order to capture Washington and lower taxes on the wealthy. With the election of Ronald Reagan, the transformation was complete. Big Business and Special Interests won, and they waged a very successful war on everything that put upward pressure on taxes, including infrastructure and education. To win this war, the GOP invested in an army of Think Tanks and Media assets. They propagandized the admittedly real negatives of public education while grossly under-reporting the strengths.

From the American Enterprise Institute to FOX News, the Conservative Movement was absolutely single minded in attacking education. Slowly but surely they drained the budget for schools. As they did this, there was an amazing transformation at the University level. At places like University of San Diego, foreigners (mostly Asians) replaced Americans as the majority. Also, Americans began to slip behind China, Japan and Germany when it came to science jobs. There was a great technology brain drain away from Americans and toward Asia and India. 

The Republicans won the war on the education. They successfully shrunk the budget for education in order to make room for 30 years of tax cuts. 

The game is over. Our schools are dying and our workforce lacks skills. Our bridges, roads, hospitals, energy and water plants are also dying - all to give tax cuts to capitalists who increasingly get their labor from Asia and store their profits offshore so they don't have to pay for things like the Pentagon Budget, which protects their overseas supply chains. The great modern industrial infrastructure upon which commerce depends is withering away.

Reagan said that if we withdrew everything government did for the middle class (so that the wealthy would have more profits with which to "invest" and growth economy) that EVERYONE would gain. He said that great jobs and benefits and schools and infrastructure would trickle down to the masses. But, this never happened. Right after he said it, jobs began trickling to China while the American consumer transitioned from high wages to credit cards and debt (to make up for the money that wasn't trickling down).

But to your point. The GOP has waged war on education and the teaching profession in order to lower taxes on accumulated wealth. It's not complicated.

American swallowed poison in 1980 . . . and the victim is almost dead.


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## LittleNipper (Apr 13, 2013)

boilermaker55 said:


> Family values? You think it is the schools place to teach that when the parents have not values themselves and their children don't respect others and especially teachers.
> Look at all your posts and the posts of all the other right wing fanatics and their regards for teachers.
> They are so easy to blame for the misguidance that parents  and then to blame the shortcomings of parents actually taking the responsibility of parenting.
> Another rightwing tool of hatred for their own failures.
> ...



ACTUALLY, I feel that we are in the present predicament because the public educational system FAILED to hold true to the values of the communities they served. As a result the students leave school thinking secularism is normal. there are no absolutes and marriage is whatever one feels like doing. Each generation moves further and further to the left of logic. And what would not be tolerated from a student in 1955 is considered "typical" today.
I do not blame the education institutions --- I blame the government and the Supreme Court for their failure to see that government has no business educating anyone. The public school system was the brainchild of the Community and a joint venture of civic, business and church leadership.


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## LittleNipper (Apr 13, 2013)

Londoner said:


> During the postwar years, the US Government channeled massive tax dollars into education. Teachers had high wages/benefits.
> 
> This resulted in the most well educated and most upwardly mobile middle class in history.
> 
> ...



In the 1950's and early 60's teachers could not even collect Social Security because it was not deducted from their wages. Most of the male teachers I knew took on summer jobs to continue to bring home a salery. So I don't know what you are talking about. The mayor's son went to public school, as did the pastor's kids, and the postmasters children, and the farm workers children. We all went to the same school and were taught the same things. It was when secularism became the mode of education that the wealthy took their kids and enrolled them in private schools. Do YOU think that the justices of the Supreme Court, and the political elite of Washington send their children to public schools? Not any more they don't! Of course all the average families were then stuck with what progressively became a more mundane sterile education. I mean China doesn't pay their teachers anything and their schools are certainly not "modern." But what they do have is a goal for every student. We threw away all our goals when education in the United States became a please everyone and don't offend anyone institution. Even in China they teach governmental SPIRIT. We had school spirit and that was a mixture of community/civic pride and religious respect.


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## Londoner (Apr 13, 2013)

LittleNipper said:


> Even the China they teach governmental SPIRIT. We had school spirit and that was a mixture of community/civic pride and religious respect.



I have a theory that involves this issue. 

In the 60s the left waged war against God & Tradition. They successfully drained America's institutional framework of positive content - that is, institutions like the school and family were no longer allowed to be _for_ something. They became increasingly value-neutral, unwilling to assign special status to traditional arrangements or Christianity, e.g., "The War on Christmas". 

It is my contention that this movement gave birth to the neoliberal capitalist which owns the right. This capitalist doesn't give a shit about America. He gets his labor from Communist China. He claims to believe in God and Nation in order to get the poor to vote for the politicians which protect his special interests. 

Milton Friedman - the GOD of Conservative economists (if there is such a thing) - believes only in the market, which he places above God and Nation. If a capitalist can make higher returns by exchanging American jobs for Asian sweatshop labor, than the logic of Capital demands it. Placing ANY value above profit is precisely the kind of extra-market value that saps efficiency and clogs the productive engine. Today's capitalist feels no allegiance to this country. Walmart gets over 50% of its products made in China. The willingness of American capitalists to get in bed with freedom-hating nations has decimated American Labor. But here is where it gets scary. Walmart feeds money into Movement Conservatism, which preaches God and Flag to the poor for the purpose of keeping its politicians in office. The capitalist _uses_ Religion as a tool of electoral populism.

What if the Left is responsible for this? What if Man needs the myth of God and Nation to preserve his country? Soldiers don't die for secularism or the periodic table. They die because they believe their nation is sacred... chosen by God... superior ... worth dying for. The Left destroyed these necessary myths - myths that _became real_ in so far as they gave Life meaning. And now they complain about the fact that the capitalist doesn't care about anything but money. 

How ironic.

(FYI: this theory bothers both the Left and the Right. The Left cannot imagine that its greatest social movement unwittingly made capitalism even more barbaric. The Right, on the other hand, cannot accept that their greatest hero, John Galt, is not a God Loving Patriot. They've never truly studied Ayn Rand)


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## francoHFW (Apr 13, 2013)

Thanks to the GOP and silly dupes:

Too many gd kids per class. Schools falling apart.
Teaching warmed over pablum, too much interference, teaching for tests.
Society of the nonrich has gone to hell- see sig pp3, not to mention the poor, poor inner cities. Great job, dumbazz haters!


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## editec (Apr 13, 2013)

At least as -12 goes, teaching is  bloody hard work.

Not everybody is suited to it.

The salaries aren't too bad, but being a teacher isn't something most people are really very good at.

People who go into k-12 teaching because they love the subject matter are often unhappy with the job.

Less than half what teachers do is teach.

Much of what they do is dealing with people, keep dicipline and do a load of rather mindless paperwork so they can justify the grades they give.


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## KnobbyWalsh (Apr 13, 2013)

Obamanation said:


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## KnobbyWalsh (Apr 13, 2013)

editec said:


> At least as -12 goes, teaching is  bloody hard work.
> 
> Not everybody is suited to it.
> 
> ...



Ed, one thing I learned early on in teaching is that EVERYONE'S an expert on education.  So all these sarcastic, dismissive and highly inaccurate "observations" here play like the proverbial broken record.  Why don't all these experts step up to the plate?


----------



## Skull Pilot (Apr 13, 2013)

ClosedCaption said:


> Long hours, low pay and lack of their profession being considered "professional"
> 
> Approx 50% leave before they hit 5 years on the job
> 
> ...



Long hours?

Summers off, all those holidays etc.  Most people would love that schedule.


----------



## Mac1958 (Apr 13, 2013)

.

I've talked to many, many ex-teachers who said they left because the children were simply uncontrollable and clearly getting worse.

One of my brothers retired from his job and decided to teach for a few years.  That lasted two years, he said it was so bad it was scary.  Kids (and I'm talking seven, eight years old) swearing at him, fighting in the class, not showing up for days at a time, parents defending their horrible children no matter what they did, parents not giving a shit, parents threatening to take action against him for their kids' bad grades, on and on.  The kids' "self esteem" is now a far higher priority than their performance.

Just another example of a culture in decay.

.


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## Book of Jeremiah (Apr 13, 2013)

Katzndogz said:


> They aren 't leaving voluntarily.  They leave when they are arrested for molesting the students.



........or get fired for telling their students to stomp on Jesus!   Their lessons are becoming more and more bizarre, let them all quit! 


They should replace all the teachers with Computers instead.  The money saved would be substantial and it would be an end to liberals having access to our children - no more marxist indoctrination -etc. 

How would that work?
I believe they should make the lessons available to parents so they can review what their children are being taught, what they are studying about next, the test results, etc.  It could all be done by computer - with field trips - lectures all online.  Imagine how much money would be saved.  They could sell off all the buildings, equipment, school buses, lay off all the professors and teachers across the USA and do online school instead.  They should create a think tank to consider the idea.  We have to stop the indoctrination of our children by progressive liberals and the school system is the first place I'd begin.  Fire all of them, make the online education available to parents to approve or disapprove ( we are the tax payers and those decisions belong to us ) and put the education system back into the hands of the parents where it belongs.   - Jeri


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## KnobbyWalsh (Apr 13, 2013)

Mac1958 said:


> .
> 
> I've talked to many, many ex-teachers who said they left because the children were simply uncontrollable and clearly getting worse.
> 
> ...



I saw a 10 year old kick a principal in the nuts once, and the principal of course had to stand (more like bend) there and take it.  Our female teachers I teach with at the prison have the joy of some asshole pulling out their schlong on them and start long-stroking.  Yea, we get the guys who not only fell through the cracks - they invented the crack.  Toughest job I ever had but the most rewarding.


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## KnobbyWalsh (Apr 13, 2013)

Jeremiah said:


> Katzndogz said:
> 
> 
> > They aren 't leaving voluntarily.  They leave when they are arrested for molesting the students.
> ...



I forgot where you said you teach at?


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## Skull Pilot (Apr 13, 2013)

"where you teach at?"

No wonder you ended up teaching convicts.


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## Seawytch (Apr 13, 2013)

Samson said:


> Teachers make some of the best starting salaries there are for government workers.



Is your estimate graded for education required? Do you have evidence to support it? 

The average salary for a teacher in a San Francisco School District is roughly $60K (which is down 0.3% from 2011) and they must posses *at least* a bachelors degree. 

Now, here's a job listing from the City of San Francisco for a job with *no *educational requirements.  Mail And Reproduction Service Supervisor

Starting salary...$62K


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## KnobbyWalsh (Apr 13, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> "where you teach at?"
> 
> No wonder you ended up teaching convicts.



Best kept secret in education too, I only wish I had found it 27 years ago.  You can dis it all you want and I don't care.  My guys don't sit in a stupid classroom for 4 years and get a high school diploma, make that GED, which, by the way, over 70% of recent high school graduates can't pass.  They oftentimes start from almost zero and while some don't make it many do.  There's nothing more rewarding in education like that, and I've done just about everything there is to do in education in 27 years.  Some go right into college but I try and direct them to vocational training where the jobs are today.


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## Skull Pilot (Apr 13, 2013)

KnobbyWalsh said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > "where you teach at?"
> ...



If they write like you do they shouldn't pass at all.


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## KnobbyWalsh (Apr 13, 2013)

Seawytch said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > Teachers make some of the best starting salaries there are for government workers.
> ...



In our state a masters is required, and starting teachers don't make half of that.  You don't go into it for the money and if you do, you're fooling yourself.


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## Book of Jeremiah (Apr 13, 2013)

Mac1958 said:


> .
> 
> I've talked to many, many ex-teachers who said they left because the children were simply uncontrollable and clearly getting worse.
> 
> ...



This is another reason to take the entire education system out of the classroom and move to online courses.  The money saved would be susbantial.  Even with providing these students with a computer - they would still come out ahead.  If the lesson is an online course - there is no opportunity for a marxist to indoctrinate a student - from the privacy of their own classroom.  It brings the education system to a transparency that is long overdue in my opinion.  Everyone can see what they are giving a lecture on and anyone can report them for stepping over the line with an inappropriate comment, etc. 

Concerning the parents.  The law of the land is their children have to attend school and it is their responsibility to make sure they attend.   The only difference with online school is the parent would be responsible for making sure their child gets on their school issued computer and attends class every day.  If they don't the parents are held responsible.  Once again this takes the teacher out of the equation and would eventually produce more responsible parents!  You'd be amazed how quickly they get involved when they realise the consequences fall on them instead of their children or the teacher!  - Jeri


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## KnobbyWalsh (Apr 13, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> KnobbyWalsh said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



Which again shows your lack of knowledge on the subject.  This is a fucking forum, not a writing seminar at Columbia, in the event you needed a reality check.  You really think John Grisham, Steven King, and all these people writing books on scholarly subjects (like you'd know anything about those) sit down and type it out and that's all?  Ever heard of editors?  Ever read the acknowledgments in a book where the author thanks all the people who read and edited the manuscripts?  Of course not - you already know everything.  I'm in contact with Joseph Wambaugh and Jeff Shaara, two award winning authors, not that you would know who they are, and get advice from them all the time.  You think I am arrogant like you and search their email communications for errors?  You're so goddamned arrogant and hateful you're losing touch with what little reality you might even know about.


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## KnobbyWalsh (Apr 13, 2013)

Jeremiah said:


> Mac1958 said:
> 
> 
> > .
> ...



Again I ask, where do you teach?


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## tjvh (Apr 13, 2013)

KnobbyWalsh said:


> Seawytch said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...



My friend is a teacher, she gets summers off and makes a fortune. I guess teachers in your State aren't smart enough to send their resumes elsewhere.


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## Seawytch (Apr 13, 2013)

tjvh said:


> KnobbyWalsh said:
> 
> 
> > Seawytch said:
> ...



Yes, anecdotal evidence is so compelling...

How about you tell me what state and I'll look it up?


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## KnobbyWalsh (Apr 13, 2013)

tjvh said:


> KnobbyWalsh said:
> 
> 
> > Seawytch said:
> ...



How much do you consider a fortune?  Minimum wage?


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## tjvh (Apr 13, 2013)

Seawytch said:


> tjvh said:
> 
> 
> > KnobbyWalsh said:
> ...



New York... Enough said. Oh, and her health plan covers boob jobs too.
http://www.thv11.com/news/article/197295/70/Buffalo-NY-teachers-get-free-plastic-surgery


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## KnobbyWalsh (Apr 13, 2013)

Seawytch said:


> tjvh said:
> 
> 
> > KnobbyWalsh said:
> ...



Hey, give these armchair know it alls a break!  We all live in gated communities.  In fact, my limo to my private jet is due any minute!


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## KnobbyWalsh (Apr 13, 2013)

tjvh said:


> Seawytch said:
> 
> 
> > tjvh said:
> ...



Where the cost of living is probably a lot higher.  It's all relative.


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## Seawytch (Apr 13, 2013)

tjvh said:


> Seawytch said:
> 
> 
> > tjvh said:
> ...



So your friend lives specifically in Buffalo or does she teach in the city? There will be a decided salary difference.


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## tjvh (Apr 13, 2013)

KnobbyWalsh said:


> tjvh said:
> 
> 
> > Seawytch said:
> ...



The cost of living in Buffalo NY is not significantly higher than most places.


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## tjvh (Apr 13, 2013)

Seawytch said:


> tjvh said:
> 
> 
> > Seawytch said:
> ...



Teaches in the city, and *like everyone else*... Lives in the suburbs.


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## KnobbyWalsh (Apr 13, 2013)

tjvh said:


> KnobbyWalsh said:
> 
> 
> > tjvh said:
> ...



Well how much then?  But give me a minute to see if my calculator will accommodate all those zeros.


----------



## boilermaker55 (Apr 13, 2013)

I still feel you are subjecting the wrong institution with the blame. The moral fabric of the family itself has broken down. 




LittleNipper said:


> boilermaker55 said:
> 
> 
> > Family values? You think it is the schools place to teach that when the parents have not values themselves and their children don't respect others and especially teachers.
> ...


----------



## Intense (Apr 13, 2013)

*Moved To Education Forum*


----------



## Seawytch (Apr 13, 2013)

tjvh said:


> Seawytch said:
> 
> 
> > tjvh said:
> ...



Your link was specifically about Buffalo so when you said "her plan covers boob jobs", that was an incorrect statement unless you can provide evidence that NYC also has an insurance plan with the same rider. 

While you look for that, I'll provide the average salary of a NYC teacher. You didn't mention how long your "friend" has worked there. 

Starting teacher salaries range from $45,530 (bachelors degree, no prior teaching experience) to $74,796 (bachelors degree, masters degree plus 30 credits, 7.5+ years teaching experience). Teachers who have a masters degree but no teaching experience will start at $51,425. With annual increases plus increases for additional coursework, teachers salaries will rise to the current maximum of $100,049 per year over time.​
New York City Teacher Salary 

In order to get that 100K, you have to have been working for 22 years. 

Now, what shall we compare that to? How about a bartender?

_A good bartender at the Plaza's Oak Bar can make $50,000 to $70,000 per year including tips; $100,000 isn't unheard of._

And how much education is required for that? 

$alaries in the City

The average overall salary in the city is $70K, but your friend is making oodles of money? Really?


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## boilermaker55 (Apr 13, 2013)

The ones always jumping around yelling the loudest about others being jealous of others income and wealth, seem to use this as their punching bag. Teachers are educated and most of them completely dedicated to their profession and the students.
Just as any other professional, they have the good and the not so good among their ranks.





Seawytch said:


> tjvh said:
> 
> 
> > Seawytch said:
> ...


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 13, 2013)

bear513 said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > The ex-teachers end up as the bosses of those far right reactionary crazees flipping burgers.
> ...



 bear513 is one of the burger flippers being supervised by his jr high teacher.


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## ClosedCaption (Apr 13, 2013)

It's amazing how many here can ignore and dismiss evidence and stats and instead opt to make up stories that include immeasurable things like "bad attitudes and ignorant parents".

Pretty much the formula for their disagreement is one part jealousy (make too much, vaca time), one part negativity (teacher dont do shit) and one part anecdotal evidence (I know a teacher that *add the 2 parts above*.


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## Skull Pilot (Apr 13, 2013)

KnobbyWalsh said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > KnobbyWalsh said:
> ...



Lazy is lazy.

Your writing is a reflection of the order of your mind.

Hence your mind is scattered and shows lack of attention to detail.

No wonder you're a teacher.


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 13, 2013)

Skull Pilot's immature writing style reflects the lack of respect here by others for him.

Tuff dat, boy.


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## Skull Pilot (Apr 13, 2013)

JakeStarkey said:


> Skull Pilot's immature writing style reflects the lack of respect here by others for him.
> 
> Tuff dat, boy.



I never claimed to be a teacher did I Snarkey.


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 13, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot's immature writing style reflects the lack of respect here by others for him.
> ...



You were smacked for being impertinent.  Grow up, naughty boy.


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## Skull Pilot (Apr 13, 2013)

JakeStarkey said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > JakeStarkey said:
> ...



Yeah you smacked me.  As if you could.


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 13, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...


----------



## LoneLaugher (Apr 13, 2013)

I left because I wanted more money.


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## initforme (Apr 13, 2013)

"Oh, I'm a 27 year vet and made damned sure my kids never even better consider it as a career! For one, this country no longer values education. Being a simpleton smartass is more valued (see: your TV menu and surf some channels, up to and including the news). For two, there are not many other professions that demand so much education for so little financial return. Three, yea, the kids are increasingly more difficult, but try dealing with mentally crippled parents! The hell are you supposed to reason with someone who washes down their Xanax with Captain Morgan? Four, in the past 4 years since politicians decided to make unions the root of all that is evil in the United States - the trendy scapegoat - who'd want to deal with that?

There's many other reasons I advise any and everyone to stay the hell away from it. And that's a damned shame. "

Well said.  Those who complain about teachers
1)  couldnt do the job effectively 
2)  are hypocrites.  They are the same ones who say to leave those who make big money alone.   I agree.  yet they say a teacher making $60,000 measely dollars is the scum of the earth.  If they are so dang envious of teachers then Why didnt they become one?


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## Samson (Apr 13, 2013)

Mac1958 said:


> .
> 
> I've talked to many, many ex-teachers who said they left because the children were simply uncontrollable and clearly getting worse.
> 
> ...



If its not on Youtube, then it didn't happen.

[youtube]kBeyUmniouI[/youtube]


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## Gem (Apr 13, 2013)

I'm coming to this conversation a bit late...but as an educator I wanted to throw my two cents into the mix:

Just like any other profession, there are many pros and many cons to being a public school teacher.  I think the main differences I have found between the pros and cons of teaching and those other professions are that:
1)  Other people seem to be able to complain about the "cons" of their jobs without being called whiny, entitled, libs who should shut their mouths and be happy with what they've got
2)  Because almost all of us attended a public school at one time or another...it seems like most of the population seems to think that they KNOW what its like to be a teacher, how difficult the job is, what it entails, how to fix it, etc.  

These two things make discussing education very challenging.

Doctors complain about the problems of their work without people practically spitting at them, "SHUT UP, YOU MAKE A LOT OF MONEY!!!!!"  Yet no conversation about the problems of public education can take place without someone hyperventilating about teachers getting summers off.

I do get  approximately 10-weeks off during the summer.  It's fantastic.  It is a HUGE perk.  I wouldn't deny it in a million years.  But why would one fantastic perk somehow deny me the right to address the "cons" that I face on a daily basis in my profession?  Not to mention that if people aren't trying to shame teachers into shutting up because of summer break they are trying to shame them into silence by claiming that if we do complain about an aspect of our profession we "don't really care about the children."

These tactics only serve to silence the people who are on the front lines of the public education problem...who on Earth thinks thats a wise strategy for finding logical solutions to the problem.

Teachers are leaving education because the "cons" of the profession are outweighing the "pros."  And if the "cons" are outweighing 10-weeks of vacation...you KNOW you have a problem.  Swearing at us, calling us names, questioning our love of our profession, or belittling what we do...is NOT going to solve that problem.


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## whitehall (Apr 13, 2013)

They get tired of having three months off every summer?


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## Samson (Apr 13, 2013)

Gem said:


> Other people seem to be able to complain about the "cons" of their jobs without being called whiny, entitled, libs who should shut their mouths and be happy with what they've got
> ....
> Doctors complain about the problems of their work without people practically spitting at them, "SHUT UP, YOU MAKE A LOT OF MONEY!!!!!"



Teachers are some of the highest paid public servants, this means that THE PUBLIC pays for them.

The public hasn't paid for Doctors, whose main complaint, ironically, is that they are becoming more like public servants.


----------



## initforme (Apr 14, 2013)

"Teachers are some of the highest paid public servants, this means that THE PUBLIC pays for them."

And they SHOULD be paid handsomely.   What is the problem with that?   If you believe they are paid too much then why didnt you become one?  The average teacher where I live makes $50,000.   To me thats peanuts for what they do.


----------



## editec (Apr 14, 2013)

KnobbyWalsh said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> > At least as -12 goes, teaching is  bloody hard work.
> ...



Yeah that is so true, Knobby.

As we mostly all went through the K-12 educational system as students, many of us assume that we understand what it must be like to teach in that system.

Some of the things I also notice when the issue of education and teaching comes to the floor are this:

Typically the weakest posters, the most confused thinkers, the people with the lowest levels of real information also tend to be the same ilk who like to tell us how easy teaching is, how teachers have lifetime contracts and can never be fired, and how all teachers are all liberals who are lazy people and who can do nothing else.

You don't suppose, do you, that the majority of people who hate teachers were also completely losers in the educational game, do you?

I'm thinking that narrative might explain their irrational hatred of the people who made it possible for them to post here.


----------



## Samson (Apr 14, 2013)

initforme said:


> "Teachers are some of the highest paid public servants, this means that THE PUBLIC pays for them."
> 
> And they SHOULD be paid handsomely.   What is the problem with that?   If you believe they are paid too much then why didnt you become one?  The average teacher where I live makes $50,000.   To me thats peanuts for what they do.



I was a teacher, moron.

And I never said there was a problem with teacher pay.

Your credability meter is pegging on "0" so discussing the subject with you is not worth my time.


----------



## Samson (Apr 14, 2013)

whitehall said:


> They get tired of having three months off every summer?



No this is a benefit.

Another benefit is there is a relatively low barrier for entry into teaching. By "relative" I mean compared to most real professionals.

To be a teacher in Texas, where collective bargaining among public employees is unlawful, you had to have a degree, and you had to be certified in to teach something. This meant, at minumum, you had to have a degree in Elementary Ed, and to have passed a fairly simple test (compared to the State Bar for Lawyers, or the Physcian Exam, or the Professional Engineer's Exam).

Of course, you also had to complete an internship without pay for a semester, usually as part of your degree plan: No 4 year internship at a hospital, no climbing up any ladders in a Law or Engineering firm.

The starting salary in urban areas was comprable to an army Lt.'s pay, but the chance of being sent to a real war zone was much MUCH less (yes, I know some teachers like to complain they work in war zones, but I don't see many hobbling about on prosthetic limbs).

So becoming responsible for 25+ first graders, right out of college is pretty easy.

Easy come; easy go.


----------



## Esmeralda (Apr 15, 2013)

ClosedCaption said:


> Long hours, low pay and lack of their profession being considered "professional"
> 
> Approx 50% leave before they hit 5 years on the job
> 
> ...



Teachers are paid considerably less than other professionals with the same education.  In addition, American teachers must take continuing education to keep their certificates valid.  They are required to continue paying for and completing college coursework on an ongoing basis.  

Teachers must deal with a plethora of social problems, with kids who have personal problems because of the home environment, who have physical and mental problems.  Most teachers spend at least as much time and engery dealing with those problems as they do on teaching.

Teachers are treated with minimal respect by the school administrators and school board.

There are treated with little or no respect by many parents and literally held in contempt by most of the American public.

They are expected to be saints, to wear sack cloth and ashes, and devote themselves fully to their jobs practically night and day, for low pay and little respect.

And your are surprised at a high turnover?

The best line I ever heard was on the British version of The Weakest Link.  The host asked a contestant what her profession was.  The contestant said 'teacher.'  The host said, 'So, you like children.'  The contestant said, "I used to."  

People go into the profession because they had good experiences in school themselves and they want to do the same for others.  They want to help children.  In America, the students, the parents, the administrators, and the American public can drive all of that completely out of a person.


----------



## Esmeralda (Apr 15, 2013)

Samson said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> > They get tired of having three months off every summer?
> ...



What total BS. You ignoramous.  You do not know what you are talking about.  Teaching is not a real profession?  

You think teaching a class of first graders is like baby sitting or something?  Any old person can do it?  You're an idiot.

From what lofty position do you look down on the teaching profession?  Is it your perch up there on you forklift?


----------



## Skull Pilot (Apr 15, 2013)

initforme said:


> "Teachers are some of the highest paid public servants, this means that THE PUBLIC pays for them."
> 
> And they SHOULD be paid handsomely.   What is the problem with that?   If you believe they are paid too much then why didnt you become one?  The average teacher where I live makes $50,000.   To me thats peanuts for what they do.


50 grand for less than 9 month's work.

You think that's not enough?


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## Skull Pilot (Apr 15, 2013)

Esmeralda said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > whitehall said:
> ...



It's usually the worst students who gravitate toward the education curricula


----------



## Esmeralda (Apr 15, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> initforme said:
> 
> 
> > "Teachers are some of the highest paid public servants, this means that THE PUBLIC pays for them."
> ...



It is 10 months a year and most teachers work at least 10 hours a day because of homework, meetings, extra curricular activities, and coaching.  And $50,000 is peanuts compared to other professionals with master's degrees, which is what most teacher have or have the equivalent of.


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## Esmeralda (Apr 15, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> > Samson said:
> ...



Total bull shit.  It is usually the worst students who end up looking down on teachers, and, who, incidently, end up in blue collar professions because they don't have the  wherewithal to go to college.  Those who were very good students, who loved school, are the ones who end up teaching: they want to share that experience with others; many had at least one specific teacher they admired and that person became a motivation and role model. The worst students end up like you, looking down on the teaching profession because they failed miserably in school,and, instead of taking responsibility for their own learning, they  blame the teachers and the education system.


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## Esmeralda (Apr 15, 2013)

Mr. H. said:


> "Before 5 years"?
> I think that's the point at which teachers are either given tenure or are fired through RIF (Reduction In Force). The reason 50% leave is that they are fired, rather than granted tenure. The reason they're fired is because it's cheaper to re-hire someone fresh out of college. They then give them the "5 year run" and then fire their asses.
> 
> It's a racket. I used to have such empathy for teachers when Mrs. H. got hired. Yes her days often extended late into the night working on lesson plans and grading papers. Sure the summers off were great, but it averaged out to a 40 hour week even considering those summers off.
> ...



LOL Everything in your post is complete fantasy.  None of it has any bearing on the real world.


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## Samson (Apr 15, 2013)

Esmeralda said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > whitehall said:
> ...



Wow, what an incredibly unpersuasive argument: Ask a bunch of rhetorical questions, and provide no contrary evidence, then call others an idiots.



Your infantile response doesn't require much digestion:

Calling teaching a "profession" is like calling a housemaid a "domestic engineer."


----------



## Samson (Apr 15, 2013)

Esmeralda said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > Esmeralda said:
> ...



Typical Eliteist Academia Crap.

The sad thing is that you don't seem to realize that even among academia, majoring in Education is only a step above majoring in Theatre Arts.

Pre-Law, Pre-Med, Engineering, Architecture, Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Accounting, Finance, Economics....I could go on.....

They all know most Education majors are the least intellectually challenged students.


----------



## Esmeralda (Apr 15, 2013)

Samson said:


> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



"They all know...."  The thing is you don't know anything because you've  never been to university. You haven't got a clue.  Do you not realize that teachers have degrees in those fields in addition to their education credentials?  You don't teach in any of those disciplines without getting a degree in them. Fool. The only teachers who have an 'education' degree that is not within a discipline are elementary teachers.


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## WorldWatcher (Apr 15, 2013)

Esmeralda said:


> "They all know...."  The thing is you don't know anything because you've  never been to university. You haven't got a clue.  *Do you not realize that teachers have degrees in those fields in addition to their education credentials?  You don't teach in any of those disciplines without getting a degree in them.* Fool. The only teachers who have an 'education' degree that is not within a discipline are elementary teachers.




That's not quite true Esmeralda, you don't necessarily have to have a degree in a subject area to teach that area.  As an example you don't have to have a Mathematics degree to teach mathematics.  Since I live in Virginia, I'll use that state.  

1.  Now, you can graduate with a degree in that area and then take education courses for licensure.  

2.  However, you can graduate from an approved teacher prep program which specialists in math, in which case your degree is in education, not math.

3.  You can graduate with another type of degree and still qualify to teach math if your coursework satisfies certain requirements.  In Virginia they have to have 36 semester hours of math coursework (Algebra, Geometry, Analytic Geometry, Statistics, Discrete Math, Computer Science, Calculus).  We have more than a couple of Math teachers in our high schools who have engineering degrees - not math.​

Just FYI.


>>>>


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## Esmeralda (Apr 15, 2013)

WorldWatcher said:


> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> > "They all know...."  The thing is you don't know anything because you've  never been to university. You haven't got a clue.  *Do you not realize that teachers have degrees in those fields in addition to their education credentials?  You don't teach in any of those disciplines without getting a degree in them.* Fool. The only teachers who have an 'education' degree that is not within a discipline are elementary teachers.
> ...



~But basically, you are saying what I am saying. People who teach in middle and high school, have degrees in a discipline, not a general degree in education.  Only primary/elementary school teachers have degrees in 'education,' and they take a lot of courses in how the mind develops, etc.  In childhood psychology, and so on.  It is not a silly degree.  Those who teach in middle school and high school study in their discipline and get a degree in their discipline with some education courses added to it, but they study essentially the same coursework as those who get a degree in that discipline.  And all teachers, such as you give an example of, have a serious, full bachelor's degree. Your math teacher has an engineering degree, though he is teaching math. He has a degree in a specific discipline, not some vague, 'easy' and frivolous degree in 'education.'  You can get a degree in one area and add to it other specific requirements to turn it into a teaching credential.  Also, most teachers have a master's degree or the equivalent in course hours, and many, nowadays, have PhDs.


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## CMike (Apr 15, 2013)

It must be awful having the entire summer off.

Also, getting all those benefits which most employees don't get must be horrible too.


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## Esmeralda (Apr 15, 2013)

CMike said:


> It must be awful having the entire summer off.
> 
> Also, getting all those benefits which most employees don't get must be horrible too.



So, if you think it is so wonderful and so easy and they get paid so well, why aren't you a teacher?


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## WorldWatcher (Apr 15, 2013)

Esmeralda said:


> WorldWatcher said:
> 
> 
> > Esmeralda said:
> ...




Technically we're not saying quite the same thing.  Your original statement was that teachers at the secondary levels have degrees in those fields.  Not required, people can have education degrees and teach specialized subjects at the secondary level if they meet the other course requirements.  It is not uncommon for someone to have a degree in education with a minor in a specialization field (math, history, science, etc) and therefore qualify to teach at the secondary level.  Then of course there are - what we call - Career Switchers, people that have a degree in a different area - in this example, say Engineering - that will qualify for and receive a provisional license to teach while they complete the education requirements.

So no, the premise is slightly different then your original statement.  You do not have to be degreed in the subject to teach it at the secondary level.  You can have an education degree with sufficient course hours to teach that subject.


>>>>


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## Esmeralda (Apr 15, 2013)

WorldWatcher said:


> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> > WorldWatcher said:
> ...



There is no such thing for teachers in America at the secondary level to have a purely 'education' degree. There is no such thing.  You must get it in a discipline, a degree in teaching a specific subject.  Or, you can get a bachelors degree in a subject and add the necessary education courses and get a credential in that area.  There is no such thing in secondary education as a vague, not specific degree in 'education.'  It doesn't exist.  Not in America.

You may be referring to teachers who have a degree in teaching one subject and add to it certain requirements so they can teach in other areas.  But no secondary level teacher in America has a non-discipline related degree in 'education.'  It doesn't exist.


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## bodecea (Apr 15, 2013)

bear513 said:


> BlueGin said:
> 
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> > bear513 said:
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Those who can do, teach.  Those who cannot do, pass laws telling teachers what to do.


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## Esmeralda (Apr 15, 2013)

bodecea said:


> bear513 said:
> 
> 
> > BlueGin said:
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Or just endlessly denigrate them.  





> I could handle those rug rats in a heart beat


  Absolutely baseless bravado.  

Again, if it is such an easy job, with such great vacations, great money, great benefits, etc., and you don't need to be smart or work hard, then why don't all these people become teachers?


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## WorldWatcher (Apr 15, 2013)

Esmeralda said:


> WorldWatcher said:
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Sure there is.

Please, I work in the Human Resources office of a school system and work with teacher licensure issues.  We have many teachers at the secondary level with "education" degrees who have completed the number of coursework hours to then specialize in a subject at the secondary level.  (In addition to taking required PRAXIS tests in the specialty area.)



Esmeralda said:


> You must get it in a discipline, a degree in teaching a specific subject.  Or, you can get a bachelors degree in a subject and add the necessary education courses and get a credential in that area.



Or you can get a degree in another subject, and add the required coursework to meet the state requirements for that subject.

Here is the link to the Virginia Teacher Requirements -->> http://www.doe.virginia.gov/teaching/licensure/licensure_regs.pdf

If we look at Math you have (emphasis mine):

8VAC20-22-430. Mathematics.
Endorsement requirements. The candidate must have:

1. Graduated from an approved teacher preparation program in mathematics; or

2. Completed a major in mathematics *or* 36 semester hours of coursework
distributed in each of the
following areas:​

Teacher preparation programs are a degree in education.  To qualify for the math endorsement you have to have completed the prescribed coursework in math, but the degree can still be in education.  Or you can get a degree in math, and complete education coursework.

Either way works.




Esmeralda said:


> There is no such thing in secondary education as a vague, not specific degree in 'education.'  It doesn't exist.  Not in America.



Sure there is, although they are not "vague", they can be education degrees through a specific teacher prep program.

When I was looking at retiring from the Navy I was going to be a Tech Ed teacher at a Middle School.  I completed a Teacher Prep program through the local state University to become a Secondary School Technology Education Teacher.  The program was through the Universities Education College, the degree was awarded as a Bachelor's of Science in Education with a specialty in Technology Education.  That degree, as part of an approved teacher prep program, qualified me to teach Tech Ed at the secondary level, yet it was still and "education" degree.  It did not come from the College of Engineering and Sciences.



Esmeralda said:


> You may be referring to teachers who have a degree in teaching one subject and add to it certain requirements so they can teach in other areas.  But no secondary level teacher in America has a non-discipline related degree in 'education.'  It doesn't exist.



Same thing.

A teacher can have a degree in Elementary Education (Pre-K to 6), complete the additional coursework and get a math endorsement.  Then can then have a job as a Math Teacher at the secondary level without a math degree.  I can get a degree in Political Science, complete 36 hours of math (either as part of the original degree or as later work) and the education classes and become a licensed teacher with an endorsement in Math.  In that case I'd have a BS in Political Science and then be teaching Math.


****************************************

Bottom line is there are two methods to teaching at the secondary level.

1.  Get a degree in the subject, then take additional education coursework.  A math major can take education courses and teach math.

2.  Get a degree in **other than the subject**, then take additional coursework in the subject (if not already met by the degree requirements of the originating degree).  An education major, who also completes the math coursework can teach math.  An Engineering major (most likely) will have enough math coursework, that they would only need a few education courses.  Either way the individual ends up teaching Math at the secondary level.


******************************************************

P.S. I just looked at 3 math teachers in one of our High Schools.  Two have degrees in Math, one has a BS in Education and completed the coursework/testing for the Math endorsement.  Therefore he has a degree in Education and teaches math at the secondary level.


>>>>


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## Esmeralda (Apr 15, 2013)

WorldWatcher said:


> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> > WorldWatcher said:
> ...



The thing is  you don't really understand it.  There is no way someone goes into a university to sign up for a program in secondary education without specifiying a discipline or subject or content area.  No one gets a degree in just education at the secondary level.  You are confused by the language and the terms endorsement and necessary course requirements.  It all means that a person gets a degree in the subject area which includes coursework in education, not the other way around.  The bulk of your course work is in the subject area, not in education courses.  The person who has a BS in Education with a math endorcement I can assure you has taken far more courses in math than in education.  Secondary teachers who have a degree that says education with an endorcesment in a subject area take virtually the same courses in that subject area as those who get a degree in that subject area.  If they didn't, they would be unfit to teach the subject area.  The diplomas may have different wording, but the course of study is virtually the same except that those who did not study in a program that included education courses but want to teach have to then take more courses in order to become teachers.  

There is no way you walk into an university and say you want to get an 'education degree' at the secondary level without linking it to a specific discipline.  Your can take some education courses, but you must do the course work in a specific field to get a degree.  There is no four year degree at the secondary level in just 'education' by itself.  It does not exist.

Here is where you are confused:  " An education major, who also completes the math coursework..."  There is no such thing as an education major in secondary education whose program of study is not already linked to some discipline for which he will be endorsed to teach.  There is no such thing at the secondary level and a non-specific 'education major.'  You have to link it to a discipline from the beginning.  Completing the coursework only means he will not get his degree, not one of any kind, if he doesn't do the coursework in the specific discipline. There is no non-specific 4 year education degree in secondary education.


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## WorldWatcher (Apr 15, 2013)

Esmeralda said:


> The thing is  you don't really understand it.  There is no way someone goes into a university to sign up for a program in secondary education without specifiying a discipline or subject or content area.  No one gets a degree in just education at the secondary level.  You are confused by the language and the terms endorsement and necessary course requirements.  It all means that a person gets a degree in the subject area which includes coursework in education, not the other way around.  The bulk of your course work is in the subject area, not in education courses.  The person who has a BS in Education with a math endorcement I can assure you has taken far more courses in math than in education.  Secondary teachers who have a degree that says education with an endorcesment in a subject area take virtually the same courses in that subject area as those who get a degree in that subject area.  If they didn't, they would be unfit to teach the subject area.  The diplomas may have different wording, but the course of study is virtually the same except that those who did not study in a program that included education courses but want to teach have to then take more courses in order to become teachers.
> 
> There is no way you walk into an university and say you want to get an 'education degree' at the secondary level without linking it to a specific discipline.  Your can take some education courses, but you must do the course work in a specific field to get a degree.  There is no four year degree at the secondary level in just 'education' by itself.  It does not exist.




That's not what you said, and not what I was responding to.

You said this:



Esmeralda said:


> Do you not realize that teachers have degrees in those fields in addition to their education credentials?  You don't teach in any of those disciplines without getting a degree in them.




It appears that you are attempting to move the goalposts.

What an individual goes to school for, and what the requirements to be a teacher are, are two different things.

You made the claim that teachers have to have degrees in their field (the subject they are teaching) to be able to teach in that field.  That is a false statement, I've provided (as an example) the requirements to teach math in the Commonwealth of Virginia.

You (general "you" here) *DO NOT* have to have a degree in Mathematics to teach Mathematics at the secondary level.  You can have any degree from an accredited institution (in any subject including "Education").  If that degree program did not include the required math coursework, or if you have not completed the required coursework as part of continuing education - then you can't get a teaching license (for math).  On the other hand if you do have a non-subject degree, and either completed the required coursework or have taken the coursework as part of continuing education - you can get a license to teach (for math).


Again, it's not what degree program you attended in school that matters.  It is not what the "degree is in" that matters.  You can have any degree as long as it (or later coursework) meets the minimum requirements.


>>>>


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## Esmeralda (Apr 15, 2013)

WorldWatcher said:


> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> > The thing is  you don't really understand it.  There is no way someone goes into a university to sign up for a program in secondary education without specifiying a discipline or subject or content area.  No one gets a degree in just education at the secondary level.  You are confused by the language and the terms endorsement and necessary course requirements.  It all means that a person gets a degree in the subject area which includes coursework in education, not the other way around.  The bulk of your course work is in the subject area, not in education courses.  The person who has a BS in Education with a math endorcement I can assure you has taken far more courses in math than in education.  Secondary teachers who have a degree that says education with an endorcesment in a subject area take virtually the same courses in that subject area as those who get a degree in that subject area.  If they didn't, they would be unfit to teach the subject area.  The diplomas may have different wording, but the course of study is virtually the same except that those who did not study in a program that included education courses but want to teach have to then take more courses in order to become teachers.
> ...



I understand your point, but I am not meaning to change the goal posts. You are being pedantic.  Originally, I was responding to the person who said teachers get degrees in education and not in serious or difficult fields of study, that a degree in education is lesser than a 'real' or serious degree. My point at that time was the same as it is now, which is that there is no such thing as a 4 year degree in only education, unless it is primary or elementary ed.  In secondary education, one has to take virtually the same courses as anyone else getting a degree in that discipline.  So though someone may get a degree in engineering, yet be able to teach math, he has still earned a serious degree.  He adds certain courses so he can teach math, but does not need to repeat coursework he has already done whilst getting his degreee in engineering.  Bottom line, he has done as much serious academic work as anyone else who has either a degree in math or engineering.   

Taking another subject, say accounting.  Someone may get a degree in education with an endorsement in accounting but also want to teach business.  First off, to get the degree in education with an endorsement in accounting, he has done virtually as much coursework in accounting as someone who gets a degree in accounting, at the same levels, plus he has taken education courses. Then, in order to teach business, he must take additional business courses.  He will not repeat courses he took to get his his accounting degree, so there will be fewer additional courses to take than it took to get the original degree in accounting, but he has still done as much serious coursework at university level as anyone with a business degree.  For example, if this person wanted to enter an MBA program, he would be qualified to do so.  

This 'degree in education' by itself alone, at the secondary level does not exist. The bulk of your course work is in the discipline, not in education courses.  As I said, if not, you would not be fit to teach in that area.  

What you don't seem to want to accept is that there is no such thing as a degree in 'education' in and of itself: not at secondary level: it is always linked to a specific field of study.  The term 'endorsement' is confusing you, apparently, and making you think that the person has taken mostly education courses and then a few courses in a specific area.  In fact it is the other way around. The bulk of your coursework is in the field of study, not in education.  The education coursework is minimal compared to the amount of courses you have to take in a specific field to get that degree. Then once you have that degree, you can add other endorsements in other areas. This usually means less than a four year program because you will not be repeating course work your already completed to get your original degree.

All of which segues back to the OP:  if 50% of teachers are leaving after 5 years, it is an indication they can do 'better' so to speak. They have just as many qualifications to work in the private sector as other professionals and will not have to deal with the sometimes overwhelming negatives of being a teacher in America.


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## Skull Pilot (Apr 15, 2013)

Esmeralda said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > initforme said:
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Bullshit.

Add in all the school holidays, teacher development days etc and we're lucky if it's 9 months.  And why don't teachers do their so called development in the summer rather than missing class during the school year.

And it's no one's fault but theirs if they have to take work home. The school day is barely 6 hours long.


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## WorldWatcher (Apr 15, 2013)

Esmeralda said:


> WorldWatcher said:
> 
> 
> > Esmeralda said:
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Sorry, you are wrong.  I've provided (as an example) the Virginia Teaching Requirements documents that disproves your original statement - you do not have to have a degree in the subject to teaching it.  You do have to have completed minimum coursework requirements (either in another degree field or as continuing education).

At the end of the day, you do not have to have a degree in Math to teach Math.




Esmeralda said:


> This 'degree in education' by itself alone, at the secondary level does not exist. The bulk of your course work is in the discipline, not in education courses.  As I said, if not, you would not be fit to teach in that area.



I never said it did.  Although my degree is a Bachelor of Science in Education and yes it is a secondary degree program.  My area was going to be Technology Education after I left the military.

Again though, you are shifting to coursework (which I've never disagreed with) and backing away from "have to have a degree in".



Esmeralda said:


> What you don't seem to want to accept is that there is no such thing as a degree in 'education' in and of itself: not at secondary level: it is always linking to a specific field of study.



Never claimed their was.  That *IS NOT*, what I called you on.  You said a person has to have a degree in the subject field to teach it at the secondary level.

That is false.




Esmeralda said:


> The term 'endorsement' is confusing you, apparently, and making you think that the person has taken mostly education courses and then a few courses in a specific area.  In fact it is the other way around. The bulk of your coursework is in the field of study, not in education.  The education coursework is minimal compared to the amount of courses you have to take in a specific field to get that degree. Then once you have that degree, you can add other endorsements in other areas. This usually means less than a four year program because you will not be repeating course work your already completed to get your original degree.



Again, you are now beginning to correctly phrase the discussion.  It's not about what the degree is in, it's about the coursework that the individual completed.

A person can have a non-subject degree and yet have completed the correct coursework and will then be qualified to teach (at least under a provisional license while they complete their education courses).

I'm not "confused" at all, I understand that a person does not have to degree in a specific subject to teach that subject.  What they must have is minimum levels of coursework (which is not a degree) to be able to teach the subject.

And I understand "endorsements" very will thank you very much as I deal with them on a regular basis.  The license is a generic license to be able to teach, the endorsement provides that under that license what courses you are allowed to teach.  The Commonwealth of Virginia (and I assume most states) maintains a matrix of what Endorsement Codes are allowed to teach what Course Codes.  (Note: In Virginia there are some Course Codes were no specific endorsement is needed such as "Homeroom", "Study Skills", etc., you just have to have a license with any endorsement.) 



>>>>


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## Skull Pilot (Apr 15, 2013)

Esmeralda said:


> CMike said:
> 
> 
> > It must be awful having the entire summer off.
> ...



Because I can't stand doing the same thing over and over again.

Really how hard is teaching anything when you've done it for years?

It's not like  freshman Algebra is going to be any different in 10 years


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## ClosedCaption (Apr 15, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> ClosedCaption said:
> 
> 
> > Long hours, low pay and lack of their profession being considered "professional"
> ...



You don't know the difference between long hours and days off.  

One has nothing to do with the other.


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## Skull Pilot (Apr 15, 2013)

ClosedCaption said:


> Skull Pilot said:
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> > ClosedCaption said:
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BOO HOO.  It's a part time job.

No wonder our kids are such whiners.  They're just copying their teachers.


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## ClosedCaption (Apr 15, 2013)

Esmeralda said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > initforme said:
> ...



Not only that but they act as if hours don't equal time...Teachers spend a crazy amount of time in and on YOUR childrens education.  2 months off!  2 Months off!

But none, NOT ONE of the people crying would spend 10 hours a day with their own dam children not to mention 30 kids from OTHER people you don't know.


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## ClosedCaption (Apr 15, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> ClosedCaption said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
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Wait, so you don't understand the difference between hours and vacation time and your response is "boohoo"?

Is that what your teacher said after you told her you didn't want to be in the 4th grade again?


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## Skull Pilot (Apr 15, 2013)

ClosedCaption said:


> Skull Pilot said:
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I skipped 4th grade.

Teaching is not a full time job and quite frankly it's not that hard.  Like I said it's not like basic math and reading have changed much.


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## ClosedCaption (Apr 15, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
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You speak from ignorance..I dare you to find any Teacher anywhere that says they have a 6 hour work day.  You wont because you make up anything to move on


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## ClosedCaption (Apr 15, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> ClosedCaption said:
> 
> 
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Because you say so from the sidelines


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## GHook93 (Apr 15, 2013)

ClosedCaption said:


> Long hours, low pay and lack of their profession being considered "professional"
> 
> Approx 50% leave before they hit 5 years on the job
> 
> ...



What a crock of Shit! The average teacher's salary is $51K! Not what I would want to work,  but good money no less. But keep in mind they pay next to nothing for grade A healthcare and little towards their fat retirement package (that bankrupts states and counties!

Yep teachers work 8-3, have to grade papers and test, get weekends off, winter break, government holidays, Spring break and SUMMER VACATION!!! Cry me a river! The long hour compliant is nothing more than the entitlement society rearing it's ugle head!

Public School Teacher Salary - Salary.com

If it lacks professionality that is their own doing. Fact of the matter is teachers have a fundmental job in our society, but the Unions have destroyed the profession. PCness has made the teacher's ability to teach very hard.

Furthermore, teachers get absolutely baseless protection in tenure, great salaries, get a ton of time off and highway robbery pension plans.

They shouldn't be complaining they should be grateful!


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## ClosedCaption (Apr 15, 2013)

Did you know that saying "Crock of shit" means nothing and is not a point.  And once again "because I want to believe" is not proof.

You couldn't find anything to back up anything you say.  If it's so great why are so many leaving this super awesome, laid back, top dollar job within 5 years?

You couldn't make up a reason even if you trie...I'll take that back...You couldn't back up any reason for that with any proof.


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## Mr. H. (Apr 15, 2013)

Esmeralda said:


> Mr. H. said:
> 
> 
> > "Before 5 years"?
> ...



My guess is you either a) are a RIF survivor or b) in administration. No fantasy here, ma'am. I've seen it first hand. The fantasy is yours, and you perpetuate it because that is the job of academia - to retain their own jobs at all costs. Children be damned.


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 15, 2013)

Far too many who complain about education were losers in the system as students.


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## Mr. H. (Apr 15, 2013)

JakeStarkey said:


> Far too many who complain about education were losers in the system as students.



Well, I've only been to college once so cut me some slack.
Education happens at the higher echelons as they dictate what takes place in classrooms. Even as a substitute teacher I saw such bullshit goings-on with principals, superintendents, and administrators. More so when the wife got hired on as a teacher. 

It's a protected enclave populated by friends, relatives, and often-times fellow church-goers. Nepotism, cronyism, and favoritism rule the day.


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## AmyNation (Apr 15, 2013)

In Ohio, if teachers don't retire now, they have to wait 5 years or take a serious cut to their retirement. Many are getting out early because of it.


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 15, 2013)

Mr. H. said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > Far too many who complain about education were losers in the system as students.
> ...



That is true in many places, particularly small towns and less populated areas, which make the school system the number one employer.

The keys are parents and teachers.  The first have the votes, the second have the path.  If the two groups work together, they can have a first-rate system.

Oh, about "fellow church-goers"?  An East Texas school district in eastern Nacogdoches County always elected the baptist board of deacons as the the school board.  Surprisingly, in this case, the school turns out some first rate students.


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## Mr. H. (Apr 15, 2013)

Admittedly, I'm quite bitter about the school board ruining my wife's career, then replacing her with a crony. 
Yes, so much is up to parents. To attend board meetings and ask questions. Review the resumes of new hires and check backgrounds of principals, admins, and supers. 
Why is a teacher with multiple years of experience passed over for a new graduate?
In this town, the new hire was related to a friend in administration. 

But I'll stick to my assertion that 50% don't last because they are shown the door rather than be granted tenure.


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## Samson (Apr 15, 2013)

WorldWatcher said:


> Esmeralda said:
> 
> 
> > The thing is  you don't really understand it.  There is no way someone goes into a university to sign up for a program in secondary education without specifiying a discipline or subject or content area.  No one gets a degree in just education at the secondary level.  You are confused by the language and the terms endorsement and necessary course requirements.  It all means that a person gets a degree in the subject area which includes coursework in education, not the other way around.  The bulk of your course work is in the subject area, not in education courses.  The person who has a BS in Education with a math endorcement I can assure you has taken far more courses in math than in education.  Secondary teachers who have a degree that says education with an endorcesment in a subject area take virtually the same courses in that subject area as those who get a degree in that subject area.  If they didn't, they would be unfit to teach the subject area.  The diplomas may have different wording, but the course of study is virtually the same except that those who did not study in a program that included education courses but want to teach have to then take more courses in order to become teachers.
> ...



"Moving the goal-posts" is really the only possible way anyone could argue that teaching is a "profession."

But why bother? Why is it so completely necessary for teachers to be so "recognized?" No other profession must so consistantly look itself in the mirror each morning and chant reassuringly, "You are a professional, and people like you!"

It is because they realize:
1. They skated through their post-high-school degree
2. They received a job with practiaclly no experience
3. They receive a starting salary that puts most other civil servants to shame
4. They are only in the vaugest sense accountable for achieving anything


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## Samson (Apr 15, 2013)

Mr. H. said:


> Admittedly, I'm quite bitter about the school board ruining my wife's career, then replacing her with a crony.
> Yes, so much is up to parents. To attend board meetings and ask questions. Review the resumes of new hires and check backgrounds of principals, admins, and supers.
> Why is a teacher with multiple years of experience passed over for a new graduate?
> In this town, the new hire was related to a friend in administration.
> ...



If tenure was a universal grant, then I may agree.

However, it is not: in many states there is no "tenure," yet many teachers still leave the job.

Why?

I say it again: Easy come, easy go. The barriers to enter teaching are not terribly high. Most that get a teaching job do not realize how easy they have it, and consequently, the grass seems greener. Once they leave teaching and find their employment depends on actual, measurable financial rubrics that meet business goals, they often which they could return to the routine of teaching, or they become successful, enterprizing people who are rewarded proportionally for their efforts.

Don't let the latter get out: It will just be our secret.


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## Samson (Apr 15, 2013)

AmyNation said:


> In Ohio, if teachers don't retire now, they have to wait 5 years or take a serious cut to their retirement. Many are getting out early because of it.



Another indication of the value that the "profession" has in our society.

Let's face it: after you teach Math for 10 years, whatever improvements you can make in adding fractions are going to be relatively marginal.


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## MikeK (Apr 15, 2013)

I can't imagine anyone entering the Teaching profession for any reason other than wanting to teach, an objective which is virtually impossible to accomplish in many parts of today's America.

I attended Catholic school and academy (St. Francis Xavier) and I recall wishing that I were in public school instead, which, based on what I'd heard from friends, was like a vacation in comparison.  The discipline at St. Francis, and all Catholic schools so I'm told, was not just rigid -- it was _very_ rigid.  

We wore uniforms: blue blazer, black trousers & shoes, white shirt and maroon tie.  There was no talking in classrooms without approval, and there was no talking in corridors where we walked in columns of two.  There were tests every Friday afternoon and if one failed a test it meant 9 to 5 instead of 9 to 3 until a passing mark was achieved.  And all of this was enforced by a variety of punishments  -- including corporal.  

Looking back, I am grateful for it all.  Especially when I read and hear about the present situation in the public schools and how far behind the rest of the developed world the American educational system has become.  I am convinced the reason for it is the absence of the kind of discipline which is necessary to properly educate children.  

While I never was a committed Catholic I pretended to be to please my mother.  In fact I became a committed atheist in my mid-teens.  But I firmly believe a Catholic school education is 100% superior to that available from the average public school.


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## squeeze berry (Apr 16, 2013)

a lot is normal turnover

1. not being retained by administration for various reasons which could be any number of reasons including not getting decent evaluations. some teachers fail to re-certify after 5 years.

2. disillusionment with working conditions.ie you are less of a coach and more of an umpire. A thankless job getting all the blame and none of the credit

3. some decide to change professions

most teachers are normal people trying to do the best they can under what can be considered impossible odds.


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## Skull Pilot (Apr 16, 2013)

ClosedCaption said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > Esmeralda said:
> ...



Classes start at 8 and end at what 230 then there's lunch That's a 6 hour day and teachers don't teach every period.

For christ sake stop trying to act as if teaching is hard work.


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 16, 2013)

squeeze berry said:


> a lot is normal turnover
> 
> 1. not being retained by administration for various reasons which could be any number of reasons including not getting decent evaluations. some teachers fail to re-certify after 5 years.
> 
> ...



I served on school boards for many years, and as a school board president as well for four years.  You are 100% correct in your conclusion, based on my experience and observation.


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## editec (Apr 16, 2013)

Mr. H. said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > Far too many who complain about education were losers in the system as students.
> ...



Sadly there is much truth in those complaints, Mr. H.

As every community basically controls its own educational system, nepotism, and old boy (or girl) cronyism, and GROUP THINK prejudice is rather common in our schools.


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## ClosedCaption (Apr 16, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> ClosedCaption said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



Why do you keep saying "classes start"?  What time does the teachers day start?  That is what we're talking about right?  How long the teachers day is, right?


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## AmyNation (Apr 16, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> ClosedCaption said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...





You, are clueless. But in a fun way.


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## Skull Pilot (Apr 16, 2013)

ClosedCaption said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > ClosedCaption said:
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Oh so the teacher has to get there 5 minutes before first period.   Yeah that makes the day soooo much longer.

It's a part time job.


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## AmyNation (Apr 16, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> ClosedCaption said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



You should go to your local high school and actually talk to a teacher. It'll clear up a lot of your misconceptions.


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 16, 2013)

Skull, you really have no idea of what you are talking about.

Call the HS counselor.  Make an appointment to shadow an instructor for an entire day.  Do something like Spec Ed, Theatre, or Math.


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## squeeze berry (Apr 16, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> ClosedCaption said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



i have had jobs in govt and the private sector.

By far the most difficult and thankless is teaching


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## editec (Apr 16, 2013)

Mr. H. said:


> Admittedly, I'm quite bitter about the school board ruining my wife's career, then replacing her with a crony.
> Yes, so much is up to parents. To attend board meetings and ask questions. Review the resumes of new hires and check backgrounds of principals, admins, and supers.
> Why is a teacher with multiple years of experience passed over for a new graduate?
> In this town, the new hire was related to a friend in administration.
> ...



Mr. H.

What benefit would TENURE have granted your wife?

Did you check her contract?

Because I am highly dubious it would have granted her much more than the right, should she fired, to demand a REVIEW of her firing.


The myth that k-12 public school teachers can not be let go, is just that...a myth.


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## Skull Pilot (Apr 16, 2013)

JakeStarkey said:


> Skull, you really have no idea of what you are talking about.
> 
> Call the HS counselor.  Make an appointment to shadow an instructor for an entire day.  Do something like Spec Ed, Theatre, or Math.



OH teaching theater now that's hard work.

Cut the crap.  Nothing about teaching basic HS courses is difficult.  The fucking material hasn't changed since my grandparents were in school.

Tell me how much as US history, basic English grammar, and algebra changed in the past 100 years.

If a teacher can't get his work done in an 8 hour day then that's his problem.  Anyway most professionals I know plan to work at least 50 hours a week for their salary and they have to work all year long not just 3/4 of the year.


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 16, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > Skull, you really have no idea of what you are talking about.
> ...



Nonsense.  Your are simply being stubborn because you know you are wrong.  You simply can't stand being counseled by those who know better.  You must be a difficult employee.

End of story.


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## ClosedCaption (Apr 16, 2013)

AmyNation said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > ClosedCaption said:
> ...



You would think that by him needing to constantly change or edit the bullshit he says that is not true would lead him to the conclusion that he knows nothing about teaching at all.

But nope...He says it, finds out its not true, changes what he says and still claims his 1st, 2nd and 3rd revisions to be right the whole time


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## ClosedCaption (Apr 16, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > Skull, you really have no idea of what you are talking about.
> ...




You wouldn't spend 6-8 hours with 30 kids if they paid you too


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## AmyNation (Apr 16, 2013)

I don't know how it is in Skulls state, but my sister in law, who is a public school teacher, works 10 hour days. And no, she doesn't have time to just hang around during school hours like skull thinks.


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## Skull Pilot (Apr 16, 2013)

AmyNation said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > ClosedCaption said:
> ...



I went to HS and the teachers were not there much before the students. To say they are there for hours before class is crap.


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## Skull Pilot (Apr 16, 2013)

AmyNation said:


> I don't know how it is in Skulls state, but my sister in law, who is a public school teacher, works 10 hour days. And no, she doesn't have time to just hang around during school hours like skull thinks.



Yeah sure.  So if the classes only run about 6 hours a day and the teachers don't teach every period what are they doing for those other 4 or 5 hours?

I don't buy it.  You all put these people on a pedestal but in reality they don't work full time and they don't work that hard.

Really how hard is it to teach US history, or geometry, or English Comp for years on end?  Nothing changes.


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## psikeyhackr (Apr 16, 2013)

Because they believed the propaganda about teachers when they were young but were intelligent enough to see reality and find something better once they were actually into it.

So it is the ones not intelligent enough to find something better who stay but they keep pumping out the propaganda.

Running for cover!  LOL

psik


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## AmyNation (Apr 16, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> AmyNation said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



Again, school is very much a local issue, so I don't know how it is where you are... But my sister in law is required to be at school at 6:30am, for a daily meeting, then she is required to have 1 hour before school begins, and one hour after school ends, of office hours, for any student who wishes to talk to her. She has no free time during school hours, as she is either teaching, grading, or making phone calls. As she's required to contact parents of students who miss her class, or are struggling.


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## AmyNation (Apr 16, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> AmyNation said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know how it is in Skulls state, but my sister in law, who is a public school teacher, works 10 hour days. And no, she doesn't have time to just hang around during school hours like skull thinks.
> ...



You think teachers teach 1 class, once a day? 

Ok. You keep on keeping on. Clearly you are entrenched in this belief and have no desire for facts to get in your way.


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## LoneLaugher (Apr 16, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> ClosedCaption said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



You really are limited. I thought you knew more about the world. I misjudged you. Must be your arrogance.


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## Samson (Apr 16, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> AmyNation said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know how it is in Skulls state, but my sister in law, who is a public school teacher, works 10 hour days. And no, she doesn't have time to just hang around during school hours like skull thinks.
> ...



Correct.

I can see maybe a first-year, or even a second year teacher strugging with time management, unable to complete tasks during regular school hours. Even I, on very VERY few occasions, would bring stuff home to grade.

Now, there is the case where a teacher will VOLUNTEER to work longer hours: take the Theatre Teacher for example; rehearsals, set design, coaching debate, etc., are often done AFTER school. Sometimes a small stipend is offered, but most teachers WANT to do this stuff. Once you volunteer, then bitching about the extra hours is irrelevant.


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## LoneLaugher (Apr 16, 2013)

squeeze berry said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > ClosedCaption said:
> ...



I have worked jobs in construction, building maintenance, manufacturing, sales and sales management....and I have owned three businesses.  My 4 years as a High School teacher were by far the most challenging in terms of difficulty and time spent on the job.

Skull is wrong and is displaying a very childish, naive thought process here. I think I will devote some time to mocking him rather than having a discussion with him.


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## WorldWatcher (Apr 16, 2013)

Samson said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > AmyNation said:
> ...




You are wrong, most times those types of positions a Music Teacher, Chorus Teacher, Theater Teacher - the performance of after school functions (rehearsals and performances) are not VOLUNTEER they are an integral portion of the job requirements, they are required (for the example of music, chorus, and theater).  Apply for the job as a High School Music Teacher and tell the Principal that you refuse to have a band as part of the school program.

See if you get the job.


>>>>


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 16, 2013)

Skull Pilot obviously is envious of school teachers, resents them for whatever stupid reason, and is acting like Balaam's four-legged buddy.  Pathetic.


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## Skull Pilot (Apr 16, 2013)

JakeStarkey said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > JakeStarkey said:
> ...



I am not anyone's employee.

I have been working for myself most of my life and now people work for me.

I just don't believe all the pissing and moaning from teachers about how hard their part time jobs are.


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## Skull Pilot (Apr 16, 2013)

ClosedCaption said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > JakeStarkey said:
> ...



That doesn't mean it's "hard work"

There are a lot of things I wouldn't choose to do even if I were paid.


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## Skull Pilot (Apr 16, 2013)

AmyNation said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > AmyNation said:
> ...


 where did I say that?

Algebra 2 hasn't changed in 100 years either so teaching that, algebra 1 and geometry  shouldn't be too tough


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## Skull Pilot (Apr 16, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > ClosedCaption said:
> ...



No I just call a part time job what it is.


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## koshergrl (Apr 16, 2013)

Political Junky said:


> I suspect a lot more teachers will leave if asked to teach that Darwin was wrong, and other crap some states have put into their curriculum.


 
Hallelujah!


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## koshergrl (Apr 16, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...


 
If it's so odious, one wonders why on earth they would go into that field....

Oh yeah...it's because they're stupid, and lazy, and wouldn't make it as doctors or lawyers. It's the perfect job!


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## Skull Pilot (Apr 16, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> squeeze berry said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



Yeah sure. Teaching the same thing every year over and over and over again must be tough.  Having summers and all those school holidays off must suck. 

Tell me how many new things have happened in Algebra lately? US History?  Anything new by Shakespeare?


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## Skull Pilot (Apr 16, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > JakeStarkey said:
> ...



They go into it because it's full time pay for part time work.


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## koshergrl (Apr 16, 2013)

AmyNation said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > AmyNation said:
> ...


 
What is with you people and pretending that people say things other than what they said?

He never said that. You made it up and assigned it to him. Poor form...and stupid...of you. But it's what we expect from you. Keep on keeping on.


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 16, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



You are simply silly.


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 16, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> AmyNation said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



You do that all the time, kg, so we will give your statement the worth it deserves.  Nada.


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## koshergrl (Apr 16, 2013)

I have told you repeatedly not to talk to me, jake.


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## koshergrl (Apr 16, 2013)

but first..jake, who is this "we" you speak for? You and who else???


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## LoneLaugher (Apr 16, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> but first..jake, who is this "we" you speak for? You and who else???



You are a bit unstable, aren't you? You want the dude to talk to you or not?


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## koshergrl (Apr 16, 2013)

He claims to speak for many. Let's find out who they are.


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## bornright (Apr 16, 2013)

ClosedCaption said:


> Long hours, low pay and lack of their profession being considered "professional"
> 
> Approx 50% leave before they hit 5 years on the job
> 
> ...



I think most give up because their fantasy of being about to turn large numbers of spoiled, undisciplined, low motivated children into eager, well behaved, loving children proved to be much more difficult than they thought.

With most teachers being women many have had children of their own and have chosen to stay home with them instead of dealing with the brats at school.


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## koshergrl (Apr 16, 2013)

He uses "we" to lend himself credibility. It's a farce. He always rejoinds with a "we" comment when I tell him to quit talking to me.

He's fucking psycho.


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## Skull Pilot (Apr 16, 2013)

JakeStarkey said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > koshergrl said:
> ...



In CT there are 180 days of school.  if there are 8 weekend days per month and we say each month is 30 days then each month has 22 days of classes

Therefore a teacher in CT works just over 8 months a year.

That is a part time job.


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## LoneLaugher (Apr 16, 2013)

That is ridiculous, Skull. 

And.....KG......you speak of Jake being "psycho". You have been in some kind of therapy, have you not?


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 16, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> That is ridiculous, Skull.
> 
> And.....KG......you speak of Jake being "psycho". You have been in some kind of therapy, have you not?



The "why" of Skull Pilot and his complete lack of understanding about the teaching profession in public school eludes me right now, but it will come out.

I do understand KG, though, and, yes, she has been in therapy, for some time.  She has transference issues, and add to that I have made her look foolish on numerous times here on the Board, a "sin" she will never forgive.

She is best kept on Ignore most of the time.  On the positive side, she is a most ardent, dedicated advocate for children and the unborn.


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## squeeze berry (Apr 16, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > Skull, you really have no idea of what you are talking about.
> ...


 

as usual there is more to it than that.

teachers now must track progress using charts and graphs. grades are no longer good enough. 
when half the class is sped there are dozens of students with 10 accomodations each.mmaccomodations. teachers are no longer able to discipline students. sometimes the curriculum changes and you must start from scratch using a new approach. ever try fractiion rap?and if the lazy and stupid kid does not get it, who gets the blame?  

in rality most students don't need albrabantway. vocational training is more appropriate. but parents insist their little Einstein will be a brain surgeon in spite of an IQ of 85 and the ambition of a sloth.


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## squeeze berry (Apr 16, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> AmyNation said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know how it is in Skulls state, but my sister in law, who is a public school teacher, works 10 hour days. And no, she doesn't have time to just hang around during school hours like skull thinks.
> ...



try teaching special ed where you teach several subjects to several different ability levels, change diapers, get spit on and hit and get blamed by the parents for their 35 IQ child's lack of progress


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## AmyNation (Apr 16, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> AmyNation said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



Last time I looked...

6-5=1


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## squeeze berry (Apr 16, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...





I can only speak for myself.

the hours I put in are not oppressive.
The compensation package is ok, but not great. That includes  most summers off.
This past summer I was not off. I had to take 2 courses at my own expense to keep my job.
I have to change my curriculum every year for 5 to 6 subjects. I have to pull lessons and curriculum out my ass. No text books no kidding.
I fly by the seat of my pants.

The worst part of the job is people telling me how easy I have it and making me the scapegoat for everything they or their children have failed to accomplish in life or school.

I have had parents  and students cuss at me and threaten me without any consequences.
It's getting old.


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## koshergrl (Apr 16, 2013)

You should quit.


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## squeeze berry (Apr 16, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> You should quit.



I probably will and if I feel that way something is veeeery wrong


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 16, 2013)

squeeze berry said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > JakeStarkey said:
> ...



Being a spec ed instructor is a very special, very stressful job.  I have known some who have done it for 20 years and more, and I have no idea how.  You must be a very special person.


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## koshergrl (Apr 16, 2013)

You're in the wrong profession.

We have a good crop of teachers in our charter schools now...people who want to teach, who are happy to be pulling in a paycheck...who aren't under the thumb of the unions......eventually I see a purge taking place across the board. Then maybe I won't have to deal with idiots who don't know what the word *recent* means....


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## WorldWatcher (Apr 16, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> So if the classes only run about 6 hours a day...





Skull Pilot said:


> In CT there are 180 days of school.





koshergrl said:


> You're in the wrong profession.
> 
> We have a good crop of teachers in our charter schools now...people who want to teach, who are happy to be pulling in a paycheck...who aren't under the thumb of the unions......eventually I see a purge taking place across the board. Then maybe I won't have to deal with idiots who don't know what the word *recent* means....



So KG,


Do you think those "good crop of teachers" work only 6 hours per day 180 days per year?  That the only time this good crop of teachers "work" is when students are in the classroom?


>>>>


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## ClosedCaption (Apr 16, 2013)

So KG's simple solution is to quit.  All that's great since America is leading the world in education why try anything else.  All teachers should just quit and stop looking for any solution.  That way millions of KG's will grow up to run the world...what could be wrong with that?

Anyone seen "idiocracy"?


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## LoneLaugher (Apr 16, 2013)

And...don't forget....they should be happy to pull in a paycheck! Minimum wage will do!


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## Skull Pilot (Apr 17, 2013)

squeeze berry said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > JakeStarkey said:
> ...



OOOOH charts and graphs you mean like the kind you can do on a computer in a few seconds

The horror.


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## Skull Pilot (Apr 17, 2013)

squeeze berry said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > AmyNation said:
> ...



Poor baby.


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## squeeze berry (Apr 17, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> squeeze berry said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



skullfuck,

it takes longer than that. You need to enter the data fort multiple children.


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## squeeze berry (Apr 17, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> squeeze berry said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



grow up


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## squeeze berry (Apr 17, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> You're in the wrong profession.
> 
> We have a good crop of teachers in our charter schools now...people who want to teach, who are happy to be pulling in a paycheck...who aren't under the thumb of the unions......eventually I see a purge taking place across the board. Then maybe I won't have to deal with idiots who don't know what the word *recent* means....



why can't teachers try to get as much as they can in compensation?

professional athletes, doctors, plumbers etc do it.


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## Skull Pilot (Apr 17, 2013)

squeeze berry said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > squeeze berry said:
> ...



They need to record the data anyway so what's the big deal record it in a grade book or on a spread sheet.

My god you are a fountain of fucking excuses aren't you?


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## squeeze berry (Apr 17, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> squeeze berry said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



facts are not excuses

the ponit is that it's not the piece of cake you portray. Have you ever done it?


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## Samson (Apr 17, 2013)

WorldWatcher said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



No you are wrong.

I said there are cases that teachers volunteer for after hours duty, I did not say this was ALWAYS the case.

It is true that if you're applying for a Band Leader Job, or Coaching position, then you are expected to work longer hours, and then you are compensated. The Theatre Teacher whose example I gave, like many other teachers who have "extracurricular" responsibilities, has a lot of flexibility in scheduling their hours, and will often CHOOSE to schedule extra hours for which they KNOW they will not be compensated.


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## JakeStarkey (Apr 17, 2013)

Samson is correct, of course.  So many of our teachers were involved after hours without compensation.

Teachers not only teach, but 99% of them would succeed at whatever they were tasked.


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## Samson (Apr 17, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> squeeze berry said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



Thanks to Federal Mandates that even Vegetables need an Education, someone with this job has job security like few enjoy on the face of the planet.


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## Samson (Apr 17, 2013)

WorldWatcher said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > So if the classes only run about 6 hours a day...
> ...



Why not?

You seem focused on QUANTITY of time someone spends doing any job.

Doesn't QUALITY of time count toward teaching?

Hell, I could walk into a class and show the same fucking movie for 8 hours during the day,
or I could teach a very focused lesson, test to see if the information was transferred, grade the test, and retest if necessary, or move on. 

Quantity of time is finite, but is not necessarily the only measure, or even the best measurement of anyone's ability to get the job done.


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## Samson (Apr 17, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> AmyNation said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



You are right. I've done it, and it is easy.

Most teachers who make teaching hard, bring woe upon themselves. Once you can deal with Other Adults (Parents, other teachers, administrators) the largest problems are resolved.

If anyone wants to know the secret of dealing with this group, I'll summarize with one word: DOCUMENTATION.

Sadly, most teachers are teachers, because they were not the sharpest tools in the shed, and as a result do not possess nearly the mental capacity necessary to optimize a method to document practically every activity they plan to have, nor every activity they have performed. Often you will see these teachers ENFORCING THE RULES. They make up rules as they go along. LOTS of RULES. Then they wonder why everyone is confused by their RULES.

A classroom needs about 5 rules, max. They need to be Writ Large on each wall. They need to be simple, and consistantly enforced, with infractions simply documented on a form with four (4) lines 1. Pupil's Name 2. Date 3. Infraction 4. PHONE NUMBER (have the pupil give this).

Assuming the student gives you the correct number, you call it, and report the infraction to the parent, advising them of the discipline ladder which will require they eventually meet with you, or be inconvenienced to pick their kid up from school, or both.

Obviously, given the wrong number, you'll need to look it up, call, and add giving false information to the infraction.

The whole process takes less than a minute. During September, it happens with some frequency, but by October you have enough documentation to have the most frequent offenders removed from your class most days. Often an administrator will helpfully move the most undesireable student to another teacher's room, where their behavior will not be well documented, thus giving the administrator an excuse to ignore pleas for help.


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## Skull Pilot (Apr 17, 2013)

squeeze berry said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > squeeze berry said:
> ...



I have certainly prepared charts and graphs for multiple items and I sure as shit couldn't whine about it to my boss and still have kept the account.

And sorry but teachers, like most people these days think what they do is soooooo hard and soooooo important.

If you want to teach then fine just quit the fucking whining already.

You're not doing anything that hasn't been done before.


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## WorldWatcher (Apr 17, 2013)

Samson said:


> Hell, I could walk into a class and show the same fucking movie for 8 hours during the day,



No you couldn't, in my division you would be fired for dereliction of duty (i.e. for cause).  You could appeal the termination, but you'd loose and during the review process you would be on leave without pay.



Samson said:


> or I could teach a very focused lesson, test to see if the information was transferred, grade the test, and retest if necessary, or move on.



If teachers only "work" when there are students in the classroom...

1.  When are you going to research the material?

2.  When are  you going to develop the teaching materials?

3.  When are you going to write the tests?

4.  When are you going to grade the tests?

5.  When are you going to input the results into the student information tracking system?




Samson said:


> Quantity of time is finite, but is not necessarily the only measure, or even the best measurement of anyone's ability to get the job done.




Nor is saying that teachers only "work" during the time when students are in the classroom a measure of the quality of the job performed.  

Teachers work more than 6 hours per day, 180 days per year when the students are in the seats.


>>>>


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## AmyNation (Apr 17, 2013)

There is also the fact that many teachers have to spend their own moneny to supply their students with the necessities. My SIL starts the year buying notebooks, folders, pens/pencils, paper , for 150 students, on top of all the supplies she needs to teach with.


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## koshergrl (Apr 17, 2013)

She chooses to do it. She isn't obligated to.

You guys have trouble with comprehension when it comes to "choice", dontcha now...


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## AmyNation (Apr 17, 2013)

She chooses to do it, because she cant teach students who dont have the proper supplies. I didnt forget its a choice she makes, im pointing out that there is more to being a teacher then some here seem to think.


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## koshergrl (Apr 17, 2013)

If she can't teach students without those supplies then she needs to adjust her curriculum.

Or quit. Like I said, she made a choice.

Progressives are all about making crap choices...then expecting someone else to foot the bill.


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## AmyNation (Apr 17, 2013)

I cant and wont speak for every community or every teacher. However i have nothing but total admiration for my SIL. She works long hours, spends endless amounts of time in and out of the classroom dealing with students in an inner city classroom setting. Shes been hit, spit on, had her car stolen and her classroom trashed. And if you question her, why she doesn't look for a better position, in a different district, she will give you a puzzled look and tell you that she loves her job, and that the students who try make the whole situation worth it.

That has been my experience with teachers.


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## AmyNation (Apr 17, 2013)

Oh stuff it KG. 

Go take your evil progressive narrative elsewhere. You aren't even trying to stay on the topic of the thread.


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## LoneLaugher (Apr 17, 2013)

Samson said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
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> > AmyNation said:
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In what world do you think the rest of us live?


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## squeeze berry (Apr 17, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> She chooses to do it. She isn't obligated to.
> 
> You guys have trouble with comprehension when it comes to "choice", dontcha now...



what is yor line of work?


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## squeeze berry (Apr 17, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> squeeze berry said:
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actually, it's you that's whining

what is your line of work ?


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## koshergrl (Apr 17, 2013)

AmyNation said:


> Oh stuff it KG.
> 
> Go take your evil progressive narrative elsewhere. You aren't even trying to stay on the topic of the thread.


 
Could have sworn you brought up your sil's choice to outfit her kids with paper and sech.


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## koshergrl (Apr 17, 2013)

squeeze berry said:


> koshergrl said:
> 
> 
> > She chooses to do it. She isn't obligated to.
> ...


 
It involves writing narratives, interpreting and applying policy, and interviewing.

I know what "choice" means.


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## Samson (Apr 17, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Samson said:
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I pretty much believe the rest of you live in a world that doen't extend much farther than your parents' basements.


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## Samson (Apr 17, 2013)

WorldWatcher said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > Hell, I could walk into a class and show the same fucking movie for 8 hours during the day,
> ...



Its called a "planning period."

Anyway, thanks for not addressing the question regarding the value of QUALITY teaching time. You've made my point for me: teachers, by nature, are often not mentally equipped to optimize their activities to consistantly deliver quality services within the allocated time frame.

And why should they: Who is measuring their productivity?


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## Skull Pilot (Apr 17, 2013)

squeeze berry said:


> Skull Pilot said:
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I own my own business.

And me telling you that teaching is a pretty good part time gig with full time pay and great benefits is what you call whining?

You're the one saying how difficult making all those charts and graphs is not me.


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## LoneLaugher (Apr 17, 2013)

Samson said:


> LoneLaugher said:
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That explains why you think we will believe the shit you are saying. Sadly, for you, we live out here in the real world. You know, the place where teachers are among the brightest people and are more than capable of documenting events.  

The place where teachers are required to document just about everything....and are not afforded the leeway to make their own rules......nevermind their own fucking forms. 

"Writ large on each wall" ? 

Try harder.


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## WorldWatcher (Apr 17, 2013)

Samson said:


> WorldWatcher said:
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Most Elementary teachers don't have a "planning period" they have their students all day long.

Secondary teachers, have 7 periods per day, at your "6 hours", that's about 45 minutes per period allowing for some time for the students to change classes.  Most core classes have 25-30 students per class.  That's 150-180 students per day.

So you are going to research, plan, develop materials for 6 different classes (because not all classes progress at the same rate, nor are they the same subject), write tests, grade homework, grade papers, grade tests, review IEP's for mainstreamed special education students, create make-up work and grade make-up work for students on excused absences (required, you can't just blow them off or not provide the marterial - that's a firing offense) AND make phone calls to parents of students who are having difficulties in your class AND have parent conferences.


Wow, we who have been there bow to your superhuman abilities.  Maybe you should take the name of "The Flash" and go into crime-fighting.


>>>>


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## koshergrl (Apr 17, 2013)

squeeze berry said:


> Skull Pilot said:
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> > squeeze berry said:
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You should quit. Seriously. I'm sure you're qualified to do something besides changing diapers.

Or maybe not...


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## koshergrl (Apr 17, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Samson said:
> 
> 
> > LoneLaugher said:
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Who is "we"?

I'm the mother of 4, 2 grown and two still in school.

I can say with absolute certainty that teachers are NOT the brightest people. They do exist, but they are not, overall, the shiniest tools in the shed.


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## koshergrl (Apr 17, 2013)

Though perhaps it is an inclination to PRETEND they're stupid that makes them appear stupid so often....you know, sort of like possums fake death to cast off pursuit...


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## LoneLaugher (Apr 17, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> LoneLaugher said:
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My condolences.


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## yidnar (Apr 17, 2013)

they only leave in large numbers in certain school districts !! I know several people that stopped teaching and the thing they said drove them away was the lack of discipline in kids today.


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## Samson (Apr 17, 2013)

LoneLaugher said:


> Samson said:
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Daily, Teachers are REQUIRED to document _*nothing*_ except attendance.


Apparently you've never actually taught in a public school.


Teachers can CHOOSE to document "just about everything." Those that do, will be successful. Those that don't end up whining about why they cannot get administrative support and waiting for someone to help them with elementary classroom techniques that seem to escape you, and every other dolt that fabricates an excuse for their own management failures.


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## Samson (Apr 17, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> Though perhaps it is an inclination to PRETEND they're stupid that makes them appear stupid so often....you know, sort of like possums fake death to cast off pursuit...



No.

Smart people do not remain teachers.


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## Samson (Apr 17, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> squeeze berry said:
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> > Skull Pilot said:
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Yeah, when data entry becomes a huge obstical, then working the cash register at Micky D's may not be an option.


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## LoneLaugher (Apr 17, 2013)

Samson said:


> koshergrl said:
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A huge what?


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## squeeze berry (Apr 18, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> squeeze berry said:
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there is more to it than what you claim is my point. You speak from ignorance. 

I do not believe that I'm under or over paid. Like wise not under worked or overworked. 

BTW what is your "business" 

perhaps we could demonize those in your line of work.


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## squeeze berry (Apr 18, 2013)

Samson said:


> koshergrl said:
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you were a teacher too.

does that not mean you are just as incompetent as those you demonize? 

I'm not the one with the IEP incidentally


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## squeeze berry (Apr 18, 2013)

Samson said:


> WorldWatcher said:
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if some students are achieving whaile others are not, who is to blame?

Seems like you have an axe to grind. Having an IEP on a student is admission that there is a problem.


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## squeeze berry (Apr 18, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> squeeze berry said:
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IOW a desk jockey

big friggin deal. You gossip all day


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## koshergrl (Apr 18, 2013)

squeeze berry said:


> koshergrl said:
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Lol...uh, ok, whatever you say, einstein.


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## Skull Pilot (Apr 18, 2013)

squeeze berry said:


> Skull Pilot said:
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Why put business in quotes?

And I haven't demonized anyone. I just ask that teachers stop their whining.

They work part of the year and get paid a full time wage with great benefits.

What's to whine about?


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## koshergrl (Apr 18, 2013)

"Business" is in quotes because like many educators, squeezeberry has no clue how to correctly use the English language, or present a coherent thought.


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## bodecea (Apr 18, 2013)

One thing I would advise my daughter to never get into, even tho our family has 3 generations tradition in it....is teaching.  This country does not respect its teachers.  It isn't worth it at all.


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## koshergrl (Apr 18, 2013)

I respect teachers who deserve it.

I don't respect assholes who piss and whine about how stupid and unruly their students are, and how they don't get paid enough.

It's a free country. If you hate the job, leave it.


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## squeeze berry (Apr 18, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> squeeze berry said:
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I'm starting to see what you mean

I get great pay and benefits, don't do a damned thing all day, no accountability and I'm given all kinds of respect.

I must be a genius to have landed such a cushy position. You other people suck.


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## squeeze berry (Apr 18, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> I respect teachers who deserve it.
> 
> I don't respect assholes who piss and whine about how stupid and unruly their students are, and how they don't get paid enough.
> 
> It's a free country. If you hate the job, leave it.



who gives a shit what a moron such as yourself thinks. Fuck off


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## koshergrl (Apr 18, 2013)

Are you writing that while at work?

Lol.


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## squeeze berry (Apr 18, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> Are you writing that while at work?
> 
> Lol.



are you? 

LOL


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## ClosedCaption (Apr 18, 2013)

Squeeze, it's pointless.  You and others have proven their ignorance wrong so many times that now they are just forced to downplay anything a teacher does directly and generally.  So they only answers you're going to get it "Big deal", "that's easy" and "so what"


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## koshergrl (Apr 18, 2013)

What ignorance has squeeze proven?

Are you a teacher too? Your deplorable syntax and grammar leads me to believe you must be.


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## ClosedCaption (Apr 18, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> What ignorance has squeeze proven?
> 
> Are you a teacher too? Your deplorable syntax and grammar leads me to believe you must be.



Yours
Yes, Yours
Great, thanks


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## koshergrl (Apr 18, 2013)

So you can tell me exactly what ignorance dingle berry has shined a light upon.

I'm waiting.


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## Skull Pilot (Apr 18, 2013)

bodecea said:


> One thing I would advise my daughter to never get into, even tho our family has 3 generations tradition in it....is teaching.  This country does not respect its teachers.  It isn't worth it at all.



If you only go into a profession with the need of the high opinion of others then you have deeper issues.

Look folks do what you do for yourself.  Stop expecting people to fall sown on their knees to thank you for getting a job.

You can't go looking for approval from everyone your entire life.

If you choose to be a teacher then good for you but please be realistic about it and realize that it is indeed a part time gig with full time pay and good benefits and stop fucking complaining.


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## Skull Pilot (Apr 18, 2013)

squeeze berry said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > squeeze berry said:
> ...



You're damn right you get great pay.  Most people who work all year long with barely 2 weeks vacation don't get paid what you do.

It's about time you realized that.


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## squeeze berry (Apr 19, 2013)

koshergrl said:


> So you can tell me exactly what ignorance dingle berry has shined a light upon.
> 
> I'm waiting.



you avoid the truth just like you do a routine douching


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## squeeze berry (Apr 19, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> squeeze berry said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
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so then you agree that you suck?

OK, I'll buy that


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## Samson (Apr 19, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> squeeze berry said:
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> > Skull Pilot said:
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Here we see the typical teacher mentality: With no experience and little advanced education, they get a job.

Easy Come.

Then, they bitch about how difficult it is.

Easy Go.


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## Skull Pilot (Apr 19, 2013)

squeeze berry said:


> Skull Pilot said:
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I'd rather suck than be a fucking whining sheep.


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## squeeze berry (Apr 19, 2013)

Samson said:


> Skull Pilot said:
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> > squeeze berry said:
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 teaching was too difficult for you


PS in my case you would be wrong on both counts.Suck it you arrogant prick.


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## squeeze berry (Apr 19, 2013)

Skull Pilot said:


> squeeze berry said:
> 
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> > Skull Pilot said:
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any sheep would be wise to avoid you


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