# Palestinian children tortured, used as shields by Israel: U.N.



## Indofred (Jun 20, 2013)

Palestinian children tortured, used as shields by Israel: U.N. | Reuters



> Palestinian children tortured, used as shields by Israel: U.N.
> 
> A United Nations human rights body accused Israeli forces on Thursday of mistreating Palestinian children, including by torturing those in custody and using others as human shields.



It's official - Israel tortures kids.


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## Connery (Jun 20, 2013)

*Moved to proper forum*


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 20, 2013)

From the article, "It voiced deep concern at the "continuous use of Palestinian children as human shields and informants", saying 14 such cases had been reported between January 2010 and March 2013 alone. Israeli soldiers had used Palestinian children to enter potentially dangerous buildings before them and to stand in front of military vehicles to deter stone-throwing, it said."Almost all those using children as human shields and informants have remained unpunished and the soldiers convicted for having forced at gunpoint a nine-year-old child to search bags suspected of containing explosives only received a suspended sentence of three months and were demoted," it said."  Palestinian children tortured, used as shields by Israel: U.N.


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## Lipush (Jun 20, 2013)

I believe whoever this has to do with should check it up and bring out their results


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 20, 2013)

At some point, I am sure the full UN report discussed in the article will be available on the internet and we will all be able to access it and read it. When I find it, I will post the link.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 20, 2013)

"The report by the U.N. Committee on the Rights of the Child acknowledged Israel's national security concerns and noted that children on both sides of the conflict continue to be killed and wounded, but that more casualties are PalestinianThe watchdog's 18 independent experts examined Israel's record of compliance with a 1990 treaty as part of its regular review of a pact signed by all nations except Somalia and the United States. An Israeli delegation attended the session."  Palestinian children tortured, used as shields by Israel: U.N.


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## Coyote (Jun 20, 2013)

> The U.N. committee regretted Israel's "*persistent refusal" to respond to requests for information* on children in the Palestinian territories and occupied Syrian Golan Heights since the last review in 2002.





> It voiced deep concern at the "continuous use of Palestinian children as human shields and informants", saying *14 such cases had been reported between January 2010 and March 2013 alone*.
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> Israeli soldiers had used Palestinian children to enter potentially dangerous buildings before them and to stand in front of military vehicles to deter stone-throwing, it said.
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> "Almost all those using children as human shields and informants have remained unpunished and the soldiers convicted for having* forced at gunpoint a nine-year-old child to search bags suspected of containing explosives only received a suspended sentence of three months and were demoted*," it said.





> "Palestinian children arrested by (Israeli) military and police are *systematically subject to degrading treatment, and often to acts of torture,* *are interrogated in Hebrew, a language they did not understand, and sign confessions in Hebrew *in order to be released," it said in a report.



All of this is so wrong!  I hope that bringing it into the light brings about action.


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## krych3k (Jun 20, 2013)

Yeah, the UN is totally reputable and always operates in good faith when it comes to Israel...


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## MHunterB (Jun 20, 2013)

Embattled U.N. rights envoy for Palestinian areas vows to stay on | Reuters

And then of course, there's the rest of the story:


*(Reuters) - The United Nations human rights investigator for the Palestinian territories said on Tuesday he would not resign and accused critics of calling him anti-Semitic to divert attention from his scrutiny of Israeli policies.

Richard Falk said U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon had "joined in the attacks".

UN Watch, an activist group that Falk labels as a "pro-Israel lobbying organization", and Israel's main ally the United States have called for him to quit. U.S. Ambassador Eileen Chamberlain Donahoe described him as "unfit to serve in his role as a UN special rapporteur".*


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## MHunterB (Jun 20, 2013)

More about one of the primary people behind the allegations in this 'report'(same article):

Falk has long been a controversial figure. After taking up the post in May 2008, he compared Israeli forces' actions in the Gaza Strip to those of the Nazis in wartime Europe.

In December that year he was detained at Ben Gurion airport and deported by Israeli authorities after being barred from crossing into Palestinian areas to carry out his investigation.

In 2011 he wrote on his blog that there had been an "apparent cover-up" by U.S. authorities over the Sept 11, 2001 attacks. He later said that he meant investigations must be transparent and exhaustive.

That July he posted a cartoon which critics called anti-Semitic. It was later removed and he apologized for "unintentionally posting an anti-Semitic cartoon".

*More recently, U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon rejected remarks by Falk suggesting the Boston marathon bombings in April were a response to U.S. foreign policy*.


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## Coyote (Jun 20, 2013)

krych3k said:


> Yeah, the UN is totally reputable and always operates in good faith when it comes to Israel...



Sometimes, you know, Israel is wrong, and when it is - it should be addressed.  Israel is a better country than that.


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## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 20, 2013)

So a bunch of people with no credibility, made allegations to an agency with no credibility, and I'm supposed to take that at face value?

Let's not forget, folks, that these are the same people who take photos of people "killed" by Israeli air strikes, only to have the "dead" person suddenly stand up and help carry off another "dead" person in the next photo.

Of course, those who are predisposed to believe these lies will continue to defame Israel.

As for Falk... well... he'd better help there isn't a Hell, because if there is, he'll be spending a long time there.

What else is new?


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## Coyote (Jun 20, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> Embattled U.N. rights envoy for Palestinian areas vows to stay on | Reuters
> 
> And then of course, there's the rest of the story:
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That's another side but, there have long been charges against Israel investigated and substantiated by B'tselem in regards to the treatment of arrested Palestinian children and in regards to their use as human sheilds.  I don't think this report should be totally disregarded as "anti-Israel propaganda" - which seems to happen everytime this gets brought up.  These things are serious and IF they are false, then Israel should provide the information openly showing them to be false.


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## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 20, 2013)

Anything connected to Falk should be regarded as a lie.


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## MHunterB (Jun 20, 2013)

Here's the problem:  This Falk person has expressed anti-Semitic attitudes on at least four occasions cited in this one article.  And NO, it's not impossible to be born of Jewish parents and have bias against Judaism and Jews:  perhaps it's illogical or inconsistent, but since when is *that* unusual among humans?

So, there are at least four instances of 'prejudicial' statements by this individual - and they are PUBLIC and DELIBERATE and 'official'.  He HAS to know he is 'a public figure',  and the POV he has chosen to present is a biased one.

When the Secretary-General of the UN is chastising Falk for his bias *publically* as well, I think Mr. Moon ALSO knows he himself is 'a public figure' and is well aware of the implications.

The headline of the ARTICLE cited in the OP, which was used for the title here, is one of those misleading 'grabber' things.  It's not the OP's fault that the headline was so misleading. The 'report' alleges:  there doesn't appear to be much in the way of actual proof nor opportunity to provide any proof.  It is far from comprehensive and not necessarily factual.


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## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 20, 2013)

Yes, but to the pro-"Palestinian" brigade, the following formula applies:

Fact that supports Israel = lie
Lie that defames Israel = fact


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 20, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> More about one of the primary people behind the allegations in this 'report'(same article):
> 
> Falk has long been a controversial figure. After taking up the post in May 2008, he compared Israeli forces' actions in the Gaza Strip to those of the Nazis in wartime Europe.
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Its not Falks report being discussed here.


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## MHunterB (Jun 20, 2013)

Coyote said:


> krych3k said:
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> > Yeah, the UN is totally reputable and always operates in good faith when it comes to Israel...
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I absolutely agree.  And Israel deserves better than to have to 'open up' to someone as blatantly prejudiced as Falk has shown himself to be.

He'd best not have the chutzpah to show up in public within 50 miles of Boston.... NOBODY around here appreciated his utterly disgusting 'drafting' of our suffering into his 'cause' of slandering Israel.  That was exactly and completely the kind of filthy ploy which destroys the cause of Palestinian rights.


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## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 20, 2013)

The other issue is that even when a "report" such as this has a grain of truth to it, there is no distinction made between actions that are part of Israeli policy and the acts of "rogues" who violate Israeli policy.

If an IDF soldier takes it upon himself to assault a peaceful protester, he is subject to prosecution and punishment by Israel.

By contrast, a "Palestinian" who murders an Israeli typically gets a street or park named after him.


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## krych3k (Jun 20, 2013)

Coyote said:


> krych3k said:
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> > Yeah, the UN is totally reputable and always operates in good faith when it comes to Israel...
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Are you suggesting that UN "reports" regarding Israel have any legitimacy whatsoever?


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## krych3k (Jun 20, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> MHunterB said:
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> > More about one of the primary people behind the allegations in this 'report'(same article):
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This has everything to do with Falk.  He is the professional anti-Israel "investigator" with the UNHRC, and this "report" directly involves him as it was put out from the UNHRC under his auspices.


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## Coyote (Jun 20, 2013)

krych3k said:


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Yes.


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## Coyote (Jun 20, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> The other issue is that even when a "report" such as this has a grain of truth to it, there is no distinction made between actions that are part of Israeli policy and the acts of "rogues" who violate Israeli policy.
> 
> If an IDF soldier takes it upon himself to assault a peaceful protester, he is subject to prosecution and punishment by Israel.
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> By contrast, a "Palestinian" who murders an Israeli typically gets a street or park named after him.



If that is the case - then Israel should be more open about providing information.

The "they are worse" fallacy is just that - a fallacy.

Yes, other countries are worse, but that doesn't mean what Israel is doing in regards to Palestinian children in it's custody is right or should be overlooked.


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## krych3k (Jun 20, 2013)

Coyote said:


> HistoryBefore67 said:
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> > The other issue is that even when a "report" such as this has a grain of truth to it, there is no distinction made between actions that are part of Israeli policy and the acts of "rogues" who violate Israeli policy.
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Israel doesn't have to provide you with any information.  The Israeli government is accountable to Israelis, not to you, and certainly not to the filth at the UN and its subsidiaries.


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## Lipush (Jun 20, 2013)

Coyote said:


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And who are those criticizing Israel in the UN?

Those who are conveniently enough rule the fuel policy and hold the entire world by their family Jewels?

Reminds me of the 'enlightened' Goldstone and his rediculous report.

Just a tiny fact was left missing, that Goldstone himself who "supported" the "apartheird" claims, actually SUPPORTED the SA apartheid and and executed dozens of blacks in Africa.

If it wasn't sad, it could have been funny. The world is so hypocritical when it comes to Israel


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## krych3k (Jun 20, 2013)

Anyone who sees the UN as a legitimate organisation, particularly the UNHRC's "work" with respect to Israel, is not to be taken seriously when discussing Israeli/Jewish/Zionist issues.


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## krych3k (Jun 20, 2013)

Lipush said:


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Goldstone is a disgrace and needs to redeem himself.


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## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 20, 2013)

Coyote said:


> If that is the case - then Israel should be more open about providing information.



Provide information to whom?  Israel is a sovereign nation.  It can handle its internal affairs just like any other sovereign nation.  The UN's hyper-focus on Israel, while it ignores true atrocities accross the globe, is proof of its bias.



> Yes, other countries are worse, but that doesn't mean what Israel is doing in regards to Palestinian children in it's custody is right or should be overlooked.



Israel can handle its own affairs without the assistance of anti-Semites like Faulk and the biased UN.  Thanks for your concern.


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## Coyote (Jun 20, 2013)

Lipush said:


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A variety of nations.



> Those who are conveniently enough rule the fuel policy and hold the entire world by their family Jewels?



Ok...so we're now pushing into conspiracy theory territory rather than sticking to the facts and what is presented in this report as well as by groups such as B'tselem.



> Reminds me of the 'enlightened' Goldstone and his rediculous report.
> 
> Just a tiny fact was left missing, that Goldstone himself who "supported" the "apartheird" claims, actually SUPPORTED the SA apartheid and and executed dozens of blacks in Africa.
> 
> If it wasn't sad, it could have been funny. The world is so hypocritical when it comes to Israel



Which means nothing - address the report and what was presented.

Sometimes Israel is wrong.  Violations regarding Palestinian minors should be fairly examined rather than devolving into a race to descredit the sources and it's not this report alone that has been critical of this and complained of an absence of information from Israel on it.


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## Lipush (Jun 20, 2013)

I do not believe to Btselem reports.

Not long ago they showed a video presenting settlers cutting off olive trees. Turned out the Palestinians did it themselves.

Just like the Palestinians faked "price tag" incidents which were reported by Btselem.

Therefor, I do not take for fact anything they say.

"Fool me twice..." you know how it continues

I already said on page 1 however, that I think this should be checked and not directly being brushed under the rug.

Still doesn't mean we should change anything just because the UN thinks we do.


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## Coyote (Jun 20, 2013)

krych3k said:


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I'm not asking Israel to provide ME with anything.  Read the OP.

If the Isaeli's don't want to have human rights charges brought against them then it behooves them to provide the necessary information clearing them of the charges.  Instead, they cry wolf - everyone's biased, everyone want's their destruction yada yada yada.


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## Coyote (Jun 20, 2013)

Lipush said:


> I do not believe to Btselem reports.
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> Not long ago they showed a video presenting settlers cutting off olive trees. Turned out the Palestinians did it themselves.
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They have a reputation for checking and investigating thoroughly - enough so that they have the respect of the government and courts.  That doesn't mean they are 100% right - no one is.   Sometimes the IDF is wrong.  Should you then stop taking for fact anything they say?



> I already said on page 1 however, that I think this should be checked and not directly being brushed under the rug.



I know - I saw, and agree 



> Still doesn't mean we should change anything just because the UN thinks we do.



No.  You should change it because that is not the country you want to be and not the kind of people you want to be.  

At least - that is how I feel about my country and abuses that occur in such issues as the treatment of the mentally ill, the high numbers of people incarcerated for minor crimes or the 3-strikes rules, the death penalty and the racial inequities regarding law enforcement, anti-semitism, islamophobia, racism  etc etc.  Those are things that I think we as a country should not condone or white wash.


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## MHunterB (Jun 20, 2013)

U.S. Violating Human Rights of Children, Says U.N. Committee | American Civil Liberties Union

It's nice to know they're not singling out Israel on this subject......   

I think part of the problem is that the UN groups tend to set an extremely idealistic standard.  And they do not seem to take into account how many 'fails' or how severe such 'fails' are.

Most egregious of all - and this taints EVERYTHING from the UN! - there are entire nations whose 'laws' do not come close to meeting UN idealistic standards, and those nations are represented on many of the committees which are busily issuing condemnatory "reports"......

It's just unbelievable when some 'talking head' from a nation which sends out military death squads to 'clean up' the homeless presumes to lecture others on 'human rights'.


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## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 20, 2013)

I love the "sometimes Israel is wrong" comment.  

My response to it?  Duh!!!!

That's not the issue. 

The issue is that Israel's "wrongs" (even if the unsubstantiated allegations against Israel were 100% true, which they never are) are so minor in comparison to what is going on in Syria, the Sudan, Iran, North Korea and countless other places around the world, that it begs the question:

How does the UN set its agenda?

After all, the UN has only so much manpower and so many hours in a day.  They can't address every issue in the world at all times, so they must come up with a *priority list* of some sort.

How is it that Israel always seems to be at the top of that list?

Is the over-aggressive interregation of a "Palestinian" punk who throws rocks at moving cars really a more pressing issue than the 100,000 people massacred in the Syrian Civil War?

Is the construction of an apartment building In "East Jerusalem" really a greater concern than a madman in North Korea firing test missles towards its neighbors?

Is the allegation of a known terrorist against the IDF really more urgent than the actual ethnic cleansing that's happening in Africa?

The UN is a joke.  It abandoned Israel and left it to fend for itself after the Arabs rejected the Partition Plan.  It failed to secure Jewish access to its holy sites from 1948-1967.  It did nothing as the "Palestinians" violated every accord it ever signed with Israel.  It appoints known anti-Semites to "evaluate" Israel.  It granted observer status to a "nation" that is governed, in part, by a known terrorist organization.

In other words, the UN can go to Hell.


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## krych3k (Jun 20, 2013)

Coyote said:


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"Human rights charges"?  What are those, exactly?  Are you now going to invoke "international law" (as if you know what that means)?


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## MHunterB (Jun 20, 2013)

I only WISH it were so clear-cut and tidy as "This is the report, it is reliable, so you are wrong and have to change"

But it's not.  IMO, any nation which does not make 'up to high school' education compulsory AND free for both sexes, is committing official child abuse.  The links between poverty and lack of education are VERY clear and undeniable.

Why don't we focus on THAT instead ?   It has the best chance of producing a positive change worldwide in just one generation.


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## krych3k (Jun 20, 2013)

*xxxxxxx*


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## MHunterB (Jun 20, 2013)

Committee on the Rights of the Child - Members

Here's a list of the players:


Name  

Nationality 

Term expires 


Ms. Agnes Akosua AIDOO 

Ghana

28 February 2015


Ms. Amal ALDOSERI 

Bahrain

28 February 2017


Ms. Aseil AL-SHEHAIL (Vice-Chairperson)

Saudi Arabia 

28 February 2015


Mr. Jorge CARDONA LLORENS

Spain 

28 February 2015


Ms Sara DE JESÚS OVIEDO FIERRO (Vice-Chairperson) 

Ecuador 

28 February 2017


Mr. Bernard GASTAUD

Monaco 

28 February 2015


Mr. Peter GURÁN

Slovakia

28 February 2017


Ms. Maria HERCZOG (Rapporteur)

Hungary

28 February 2015


Ms. Olga a. KHAZOVA

Russian Federation

28 February 2017


Mr. Hatem KOTRANE 

Tunisia

28 February 2015


Mr. Gehad MADI

Egypt 

28 February 2015


Mr. Benyam Dawit MEZMUR (Vice-Chairperson) 

Ethiopia

28 February 2017


Ms. Yasmeen MUHAMAD SHARIFF 

Malaysia

28 February 2017


Mr. Wanderlino NOGUEIRA NETO 

Brazil

28 February 2017


Ms. Maria Rita PARSI 

Italy

28 February 2017


Ms. Kirsten SANDBERG (Chairperson)

Norway 

28 February 2015


Ms. Hiranthi WIJEMANNE (Vice-Chairperson)

Sri Lanka 

28 February 2015


Ms. Renate WINTER 

Austria

28 February 2017


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## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 20, 2013)

They give free education in Gaza.  Unfortunately, this is the daily schedule:

Period 1: Bombmaking 101
Period 2: The History of Martyrdom
Period 3: Introduction to Propaganda
Period 4: Property Law Symposium: Everything is Ours
Period 5: History Denial
Period 6: AP Kidnapping


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## Coyote (Jun 20, 2013)

krych3k said:


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From Miriam Webster:

Charge -  a statement of complaint or hostile criticism


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## MHunterB (Jun 20, 2013)

: ))  By 'free' I mean 'government funded' as opposed to schools which charge tuition.  I don't think that equates to 'communism' but to 'community'.  Perhaps my vocabulary is too 'American' there?


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## krych3k (Jun 20, 2013)

Coyote said:


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Ah, so you're cherry-picking the definition, implying you used the term "charge" as a synonym for "accusation".  So Israel needs to respond directly to every criticism that comes from Jew-hating Muslim-majority states at the UN?  Absurd.


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## Lipush (Jun 20, 2013)

Coyote said:


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For the record, I don't believe in everything the IDF says either.

But in their intentions I believe, in Btselem, not so much.

We have some faith in different organizations for the Arab minority. such as "the committee of co-existence" and "the movement of the regime's quality".

That is because I know they do not lie and even if at many times I disagree with their findings, I know they are well intended and thought-triggering.

Btselem? not even close!

In cases Israel is proven wrong, of course I think changes should take place. but not when it comes from certain mouths on certain agendas which are far from serving justice.


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## Coyote (Jun 20, 2013)

krych3k said:


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No.  It's not "cherry picking".  It was the definition I used when I used the word "charge".  Israel has been open to charges from various sources - human rights groups (including those within Israel), UN, other nations - of human rights violations of Palestinian minors.

Israel doesn't have to justify anything.  It can simply let the criticisms continue.  An no, they don't all come from the Jew-hating Muslim-majority states at the UN.


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## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 20, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Israel doesn't have to justify anything.  It can simply let the criticisms continue.



So you think that if Israel responds to every frivolous allegation made against it that, in doing so, it will _discourage_ additional criticism?

That is monumentally naive.

When Israel is wrongfully accused, and it presents clear evidence of the falsity of the allegations against it, what happens?  Does the criticism and false accusations stop?

Of course not.

Look at the Goldstone Report.  Two years after defaming Israel, a retraction was finally published that acknowledged that "civilians were not intentionally targeted as a matter of [Israeli] policy" while "the crimes allegedly committed by Hamas were intentional." 

Wow! Thanks!  After two years of lies and defamation, the overwhelming weight of evidence finally forces a retraction to be published. 

So, yes... maybe Israel should just ignore the UN and its biased "fact-finding" missions.


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## krych3k (Jun 20, 2013)

Coyote said:


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The context of this thread is a "report" from the UNHRC, which is essentially a mouthpiece for Muslim-majority dictatorships which hate Jews.  Of course, you view this institution and its criticisms as legitimate.  Again, that tells us all just how seriously we should take you.


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## Coyote (Jun 20, 2013)

krych3k said:


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The report itself did not occur in a vacuum.  The findings in it have been made by other entities as well, this is only the latest compilation.


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## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 20, 2013)

Coyote does not seem to get that the sentiment "you have nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide" is of little comfort to Jews.


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## Coyote (Jun 20, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> Coyote said:
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I wouldn't consider this "frivolous".



> That is monumentally naive.
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> When Israel is wrongfully accused, and it presents clear evidence of the falsity of the allegations against it, what happens?  Does the criticism and false accusations stop?
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> Of course not.



So when Israel is accused of something, despite evidence - it's always "wrongful"?  That's what I mean when I say whenever these things are bought up the counter argument is always that it's "false", or there is a massive attempt to descredit the sources.

Like I said - sometimes Israel is wrong, like when it denied using white phosphorous in Gaza.



> Look at the Goldstone Report.  Two years after defaming Israel, a retraction was finally published that acknowledged that "civilians were not intentionally targeted as a matter of [Israeli] policy" while "the crimes allegedly committed by Hamas were intentional."
> 
> Wow! Thanks!  After two years of lies and defamation, the overwhelming weight of evidence finally forces a retraction to be published.



Yes, except you left out the rest of it.  Much of the Goldstone Report remained credible.



> So, yes... maybe Israel should just ignore the UN and its biased "fact-finding" missions.



Sure.  They can if they choose to. Just like any other nation with human rights abuses.


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## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 20, 2013)

If you think the Goldstone report is credible then we have nothing left to discuss on this subject.


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## krych3k (Jun 20, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> If you think the Goldstone report is credible then we have nothing left to discuss on this subject.



Exactly.  He's not a serious poster.  Total waste of time.


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## Coyote (Jun 20, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> Coyote does not seem to get that the sentiment "you have nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide" is of little comfort to Jews.



Actually, I do, the cultural paranoia of Israel is justified by a long history and I'm sure it drives a lot of policies.  At some point, however, you have to step back and ask if it's really to your benefit as a people or a nation.  Israel has a great deal of security powerful allies - it's not going to crumble into dust and blow away if it addresses these issues.


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## Coyote (Jun 20, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> If you think the Goldstone report is credible then we have nothing left to discuss on this subject.



The only portion of it that was retracted was the claim on Israel intentionally targeting civilians.  United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



I suspect it lacks credibility in your mind because it manages to paint both Hamas and Israel in a bad light.


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## krych3k (Jun 20, 2013)

It doesn't matter what was or wasn't retracted.  Anti-Israel hit pieces from the Jew-hating UNHRC have no credibility.  By your standard, the accusations are valid only until (and if) they are retracted by the accusers.  It's an absurd position.  But wait, you're a friend to Israel and the Jewish people, right?


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## krych3k (Jun 20, 2013)

What anti-Israel types like coyote can't grasp is that many of us are very critical of Israel, but from a completely different point of departure.  There is no legitimacy to the narrative that Israel violates the "human rights" of the "Palestinians" within the "occupation".  The narrative, generally, is that the Jews abuse the Arabs/Muslims with a heavy hand.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  Where Israel does deserve criticism is that Israel doesn't do enough to secure its Jewish citizenry.  Why are non-Jews permitted to vote and hold office in Israel?  Why is there no death penalty for terrorists?  Why are we supplying Gaza with water and electricity?  Why are we allowing them to connect to our telecommunications infrastructure?  Why do we prohibit our soldiers and police from using lethal force to defend themselves from violent "protestors" and "demonstrators" that throw rocks and firebombs?  Why do we send our soldiers onto terrorist flotillas one-by-one with paintball guns?  Why do our soldiers do house-to-house searches and place themselves at risk rather than destroying entire buildings and neighbourhoods?  This is where our criticism comes from.

The truth, of course, is that Israel is entirely too soft with her enemies.  The result?  Ongoing terrorism and intransigence.  We invite hostility by not smashing our enemies over the metaphorical anvil to break them.


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## krych3k (Jun 20, 2013)

Oh please, these kids (who are mostly terrorists) are treated with kids gloves.


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## krych3k (Jun 20, 2013)

Coyote doesn't realise that children are regularly used in the infrastructure of terrorism:  as spotters, bomb/weapon builders, intelligence gatherers, transporters, and of course, as human shields.  Meanwhile, he's worried about them being "mistreated" by Israel when arrested.


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## Coyote (Jun 20, 2013)

krych3k said:


> It doesn't matter what was or wasn't retracted.  Anti-Israel hit pieces from the Jew-hating UNHRC have no credibility.  *By your standard, the accusations are valid only until (and if) they are retracted by the accusers.*  It's an absurd position.  But wait, you're a friend to Israel and the Jewish people, right?



No.  If they are supported by evidence, they're valid.  Like the use of WP in Gaza.  In this case the abuses have been documented by agencies and groups other than the UN.  I supposed they are ALL biased liars according to your logic?

I think they should be investigated thoroughly and I think that the Israeli's should look seriously at it and at improving their system regarding juvaniles.  A soldier using a child as a human shield getting off on such a light punishment? This from a country who makes the use of human shields a major moral point of difference between the IDF and Hamas?

Look at your signature.


----------



## krych3k (Jun 20, 2013)

What is wrong with the use of WP?  Oh, right.  Nothing.


----------



## krych3k (Jun 20, 2013)

Do you even know what WP is and what it's used for?


----------



## Coyote (Jun 20, 2013)

krych3k said:


> Coyote doesn't realise that c*hildren are regularly used in the infrastructure of terrorism:  as spotters, bomb/weapon builders, intelligence gatherers, transporters, and of course, as human shields*.  Meanwhile, he's worried about them being "mistreated" by Israel when arrested.



And it's absolutely wrong.  Children should never be used in the conduct of war whether it's in the Congo, Sudan, Palestine or Israel.  Are you now justifying mistreatment because this occurs in other countries?  Two wrongs make a right sort of argument?  Or is this an attempt at deflection?


----------



## Coyote (Jun 20, 2013)

krych3k said:


> Do you even know what WP is and what it's used for?



I do.  If you are uncertain, do a search on some of the threads here - it's been argued ad nauseum.


----------



## krych3k (Jun 20, 2013)

What I'm saying is that children who are part of the infrastructure of terrorism are valid targets for liquidation, or in some cases, for arrest and interrogation.  They are certainly not eligible for due process rights in such circumstances.


----------



## krych3k (Jun 20, 2013)

Coyote said:


> krych3k said:
> 
> 
> > Do you even know what WP is and what it's used for?
> ...




Anyone who invokes WP is a Johnny-come-lately who just recently began paying attention to this issue, throwing out Al-Jazeera/Guardian buzz words.  The use of WP in Cast Lead was entirely lawful and moral.  If you don't want to be affected by it, it's quite simple... stay inside.


----------



## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 20, 2013)

More Coyote double-standards and distortions.

Israel used white phosphorus for smokescreens.  There is NO EVIDENCE of it being used against human targets.  Indeed, if it had been, there would have likely been hundreds of resulting casualties.  Instead, at most, there was a claim (made by "human rights" agencies who were not actually in Gaza) that about a dozen Gazans were killed by white phosphorus.  Israel, to avoid future controversy over the subject, elected to cease using it.

People like you, however, will translate all of that to: Israel attacked civilians with white phosphorus.  When you phrase it in such a manner, you're a liar.

Meanwhile, in Syria, thousands of people are being targeted and killed through the use of every means possible, including chemical weapons.  That does not seem to concern you nearly as much as Israel's supposed wrongs.

In the end, you just come accross as a condescending jerk who pretends to have Israel's interests at heart when, in fact, you are engaging in libel.

I'm starting to think that I may have spoken too soon when I said that I didn't think you are an anti-Semite.  If you're not one, you're doing a great impression of one.


----------



## krych3k (Jun 20, 2013)

Might as well be honest about it, Coyote hates Israel but has deluded himself into thinking that he is a friend of Israel and the Jewish people.  Much like Bill Clinton.


----------



## Coyote (Jun 20, 2013)

krych3k said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > krych3k said:
> ...



WP has been discussed on a number of threads, for example:
http://www.usmessageboard.com/israel-and-palestine/293479-muhammad-al-dura.html#post7228433
http://www.usmessageboard.com/israe...ful-palestinians-at-it-again.html#post7082386

Feel free to resurrect one.


----------



## Lipush (Jun 20, 2013)

Thought we all agreed on that Al-Durah was not killed by the IDF> ?

Or are there still morons out there who believe otherwise?


----------



## Coyote (Jun 20, 2013)

Lipush said:


> Thought we all agreed on that Al-Durah was not killed by the IDF> ?
> 
> Or are there still morons out there who believe otherwise?



I have no idea - I just posted those threads becuase there was discussion of WP, rather than rehashing those arguments here and derailing the thread


----------



## Lipush (Jun 20, 2013)

krych3k, your signature photo is sooooooooooooooooooooo last season!

here, have the modern one!


----------



## Lipush (Jun 20, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Thought we all agreed on that Al-Durah was not killed by the IDF> ?
> ...



Okey Dokey Pokey!


----------



## holston (Jun 20, 2013)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6M5V_aqAck0]Gilad Atzmon Questions Students Defaming Him - CU Boulder - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## krych3k (Jun 20, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Thought we all agreed on that Al-Durah was not killed by the IDF> ?
> ...



We know you have no idea.  Thankfully, the truth is the truth whether or not you realise it or are willing to accept it.


----------



## krych3k (Jun 20, 2013)

Lipush said:


> Thought we all agreed on that Al-Durah was not killed by the IDF> ?
> 
> Or are there still morons out there who believe otherwise?



Coyote is waiting for a report from the UNHRC before rendering judgment.  As a trained monkey he cannot exercise independent thought after doing independent research.


----------



## Lipush (Jun 20, 2013)

holston said:


> Gilad Atzmon Questions Students Defaming Him - CU Boulder - YouTube



Oh goodie, it's _you_ again


----------



## Coyote (Jun 20, 2013)

Lipush said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...


----------



## toastman (Jun 20, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



LOL, I think it's just a way of saying 'Okay'


----------



## Coyote (Jun 20, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> More Coyote double-standards and distortions.
> 
> Israel used white phosphorus for smokescreens.  There is NO EVIDENCE of it being used against human targets.  Indeed, if it had been, there would have likely been hundreds of resulting casualties.  Instead, at most, there was a claim (made by "human rights" agencies who were not actually in Gaza) that about a dozen Gazans were killed by white phosphorus.  Israel, to avoid future controversy over the subject, elected to cease using it.



Israel had access to a plentiful supply of smoke shells which would have provided a less damaging and equally effective "smoke screen" in urban areas.  In a densely populated area, where people are fleeing from building to avoid shelling - the chances of injury from WP is likely and there were a number of injuries reported.  WP causes horrendous injuries.  It's a horrible way to die.  Israel lied about, denied it, claimed it was only for smoke and ultimately - after the evidence was brought into the open - elected to cease using it.  They could have used smoke shells.



> People like you, however, will translate all of that to: Israel attacked civilians with white phosphorus.  When you phrase it in such a manner, you're a liar.



I'm pointing out they chose to use WP when they had other alternatives available.  They CHOSE to use it, in a way that was contraindicated, in a densely populated area.



> Meanwhile, in Syria, thousands of people are being targeted and killed through the use of every means possible, including chemical weapons.  That does not seem to concern you nearly as much as Israel's supposed wrongs.



Yes.  They are.  And where is your concern?  Where are all your threads and posts regarding these horrors?  Why is it you only seem to post in IP on behalf of Israel, and the Palestinians atrocities to Israel?



> In the end, you just come accross as a condescending jerk who pretends to have Israel's interests at heart when, in fact, you are engaging in libel.






> I'm starting to think that I may have spoken too soon when I said that I didn't think you are an anti-Semite.  If you're not one, you're doing a great impression of one.


You are entitled to your opinion.


----------



## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 20, 2013)

Did you really just ask me why I post about Israel and not about Syria?

Seriously?

Well, gee... maybe because its because I have a personal stake in Israel's security.  

I'm pretty sure that you're not posting here because you claim to be a "Palestinian," though.  You just post here because you hate Israel.


----------



## Coyote (Jun 20, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> Did you really just ask me why I post about Israel and not about Syria?
> 
> Seriously?
> 
> ...



Seriously.

You apply one standard too yourself and completely different standards to others.

Posters here have their own areas of interest or concern - I don't question that or their motives for that concern or interest.  It's their right.  Yet coming from you and others here  its OK for a pro-Israeli advocate to post only or primarily on those topics but its not ok for a pro-Palestinian advocate to do the same and it has nothing to do with whether or not they are citizens of said areas (and most arent). Somehow, in your world, if they are concerned about Palestinians, they must be concerned about injustices worldwide.  Do you see the real double standard here?


----------



## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 20, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Posters here have their own areas of interest or concern - I don't question that or their motives for that concern or interest.  It's their right.



Well, you know what, Peyote... I DO question YOUR motives, which is my right.



> Yet coming from you and others here  its OK for a pro-Israeli advocate to post only or primarily on those topics but its not ok for a pro-Palestinian advocate to do the same and it has nothing to do with whether or not they are citizens of said areas (and most arent).



I'm not just a "pro-Israeli," though... I'm a Jew who has studied and worked in Israel, has family members who live there and who contributes financially to Israel's development.

You, on the other hand, have no connection to the "Palestinians."  You simply use them as a platform to oppose Israel.

I've said it to you before, and I'll say it again...

You're not fooling anyone.


----------



## Trajan (Jun 20, 2013)

what a convoluted article, starts out mentioning 1967, then goes to 2006, it doesn't seem very  orderly*shrugs*....


----------



## krych3k (Jun 20, 2013)

Being "pro-Palestinian" automatically makes one anti-Israel, anti-Zionist, and with virtually no exceptions, a hater of Jews.


----------



## krych3k (Jun 20, 2013)

The whole artificial "Palestinian" national identity is one thing:  anti-Zionism.  "Palestinians" are, hilariously and ironically, a product of Zionism.  Without Zionism there would be no "Palestinians".   They define themselves exclusively by what they are against.


----------



## Coyote (Jun 20, 2013)

krych3k said:


> Being "pro-Palestinian" automatically makes one anti-Israel, anti-Zionist, and with virtually no exceptions, a hater of Jews.



No, it doesn't.  No more than being "pro-Israeli" makes one a racist.


----------



## Lipush (Jun 20, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


----------



## Coyote (Jun 20, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Posters here have their own areas of interest or concern - I don't question that or their motives for that concern or interest.  It's their right.
> ...



Of course it's your right.




> I'm not just a "pro-Israeli," though... I'm a Jew who has studied and worked in Israel, has family members who live there and who contributes financially to Israel's development.



Good for you.



> You, on the other hand, have no connection to the "Palestinians."  You simply use them as a platform to oppose Israel.



Now will you apply that same standard to "Pro-Israeli's" here who aren't even Jewish much less have family members or citizenship in Israel? 



> I've said it to you before, and I'll say it again...
> 
> You're not fooling anyone.



It's not my intent to.

What motivates me is a sense of fairness and justice on both sides.  Make of it what you will.

Ironically, growing up my I had a lot of interaction with Israeli's.  My mother was involved in collaborative research with Israel, and we frequently hosted visiting scientists and she in turn spent time in Israel.  While I'm not intimately involved with Israel nor do I know many Palistinians, I have gained an appreciation for their points of view.


----------



## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 20, 2013)

Coyote said:


> What motivates me is a sense of fairness and justice on both sides.








She's here all week, folks!  Make sure you tip your waitress and try the veal!


----------



## Coyote (Jun 20, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > What motivates me is a sense of fairness and justice on both sides.
> ...



Is this kind of childish retort all you are capable of?

If the report on Israel is wrong, maybe you can show us evidence that specific aspects are false?


----------



## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 20, 2013)

Guess you've never heard of "innocent until proven guilty."


----------



## Coyote (Jun 20, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> Guess you've never heard of "innocent until proven guilty."



Stop dodging.


If the report on Israel is wrong, maybe you can show us evidence that specific aspects are false?

For example - one allegation made was that the IDF used Palestinian children as human shields and, in one case specifically, the charge was investigated by Israeli authorities, the soldier found guilty, but his only punishment was demotion and a mild sentence.

That is easy to prove one way or the other.


----------



## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 20, 2013)

Israel is not required to prove the falsity of every made-up accusation.

As for the report of the matter that was investigated by Israeli authorities... if true, you are only proving my point.  Its an internal issue handled by Israel through its judicial and/or military tribunal system.

In other words, its none of your damn business, and nobody is required to prove anything to you.


----------



## Coyote (Jun 20, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> Israel is not required to prove the falsity of every made-up accusation.



I'm not asking Israel.  I'm asking *you* as someone who is posting on a political messageboard.



> As for the report of the matter that was investigated by Israeli authorities... if true, you are only proving my point.  Its an internal issue handled by Israel through its judicial and/or military tribunal system.



So you feel the same when Pakistani authorities ok the stoning of blasphemers? It's an "internal issue"?



> In other words, its none of your damn business, and nobody is required to prove anything to you.



In other words you have no argument except insults.


----------



## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 20, 2013)

Coyote said:


> HistoryBefore67 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not asking Israel.  I'm asking *you* as someone who is posting on a political messageboard.
> ...


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 20, 2013)

GENEVA: United Nations Report - June 14, 2013 - Palestinian children tortured, used as shields by Israel. Here is a link to the 21 page report.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 20, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> Here's the problem:  This Falk person has expressed anti-Semitic attitudes on at least four occasions cited in this one article.  And NO, it's not impossible to be born of Jewish parents and have bias against Judaism and Jews:  perhaps it's illogical or inconsistent, but since when is *that* unusual among humans?
> 
> So, there are at least four instances of 'prejudicial' statements by this individual - and they are PUBLIC and DELIBERATE and 'official'.  He HAS to know he is 'a public figure',  and the POV he has chosen to present is a biased one.
> 
> ...



This report addressed in the OP is not the Falk Report. The Falk Report addressed other human rights abuses of the past year and thst are ongoing, but was not focused on abuses against children.


----------



## Trajan (Jun 20, 2013)

I gave up on the UN  completely as any type of fair arbiter in this after the Goldstone report, not that there wasn't other writing on the wall, but, that was the last straw for me.


----------



## MHunterB (Jun 20, 2013)

Shall we run down the list of countries where those people compiling the report are citizens and look at the charges made against their nations with regard to human rights?

The US DOES NOT CARE about that sort of thing, not at all.  Not the State Dep't, not DoD:  nobody.  Or we wouldn't still be so buddy-buddy with nations whose citizens have *kidnapped* children who are US citizens and held them without allowing them to contact their American parent.  

Japan?s Child Kidnapping Problem - The Daily Beast

International Custody Disputes on the Rise -- Families Fight to Get Their Kids Back - ABC News


----------



## Indofred (Jun 20, 2013)

GHook93 said:
			
		

> Don't worry soon the entire world will be using Muslims for target practice! The Muslim genocide is just around the corner!



Too cowardly to post in open forum, hooky posts hopes of mass murder in rep comments.
All we see from the extremists on this forum is hate and excuses for terrible crimes by the IDF and Israeli government.

This from the same people who accuse Muslims of not speaking out against extremism.


----------



## krych3k (Jun 20, 2013)

Coyote said:


> krych3k said:
> 
> 
> > Being "pro-Palestinian" automatically makes one anti-Israel, anti-Zionist, and with virtually no exceptions, a hater of Jews.
> ...



I already explained why being pro-"Palestinian" necessarily makes one anti-Zionist, any by natural extension, anti-Jewish.  Just as being pro-Nazi makes one anti-Jewish, so does being pro-"Palestinian".  The "Palestinian" identity is predicated on hatred of Jews and a desire to destroy Israel.  That's it, that's all.  Without Zionism, there are no "Palestinians".  Sorry to burst your bubble.


----------



## krych3k (Jun 20, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> > Here's the problem:  This Falk person has expressed anti-Semitic attitudes on at least four occasions cited in this one article.  And NO, it's not impossible to be born of Jewish parents and have bias against Judaism and Jews:  perhaps it's illogical or inconsistent, but since when is *that* unusual among humans?
> ...



Do you or do you not understand that all "reports" regarding Israel via the UNHRC involve Falk?


----------



## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 20, 2013)

Just as being pro bono means you don't like Cher.

Wait... that's wrong.

krych3k is right, though.


----------



## krych3k (Jun 20, 2013)

Coyote said:


> HistoryBefore67 said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



We're not going to accept you making false accusations and us requiring to acknowledge it by disproving the stupidity.  It's your problem if you see legitimacy in the UNHRC.  I wonder if you can even name the head of the UNHRC or which state is currently chairing it without running to Google.  Ten shekels says you can't do it.


----------



## krych3k (Jun 20, 2013)

Coyote said:


> HistoryBefore67 said:
> 
> 
> > Guess you've never heard of "innocent until proven guilty."
> ...



Of course you would prefer Israeli soldiers walk into traps an end up as amputees, right?  That's the better outcome?  The soldiers used these kids as "human shields" in order to decrease the likelihood of terrorists setting off bombs remotely as they went into apartments and buildings.  Bear in the mind that the only reason they're doing these house-to-house searches is because of a misplaced sense of compassion for our enemies, rather than simply leveling the buildings with all the residents inside.  So what we have here, essentially, is an extremely compassionate prosecution of counter-terrorism operations that place the IDF soldiers at excessive risk in order to reduce the likelihood of harm befalling "civilians", and yet it's still not enough for Jew-haters like Coyote.


----------



## krych3k (Jun 20, 2013)

Much better for an IDF soldier to do whatever he or she needs to do to stay safe and alive then end up dead or horribly injured *XXXXXXX*.  Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six, as the phrase goes.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 20, 2013)




----------



## Sweet_Caroline (Jun 20, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGxi5ZJnSpk&feature=youtube_gdata_player



Where did this incident happen and on what date?


----------



## CMike (Jun 20, 2013)

Is that the UN group headed by Iran?


----------



## toastman (Jun 20, 2013)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGxi5ZJnSpk&feature=youtube_gdata_player
> ...



That's a very old video from the second intifada, that Sherri reposts quite often


----------



## Sweet_Caroline (Jun 20, 2013)

toastman said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



I guessed so.


----------



## Intense (Jun 20, 2013)

krych3k said:


> What is wrong with the use of WP?  Oh, right.  Nothing.





> Laws Regulating Use
> 
> According to the Chemical Weapons Convention Schedule of Chemicals, the chemical P4 is neither a toxic chemical nor a precursor to a toxic chemical. Protocol III of The Convention on Prohibition or Restrictions on the Use of Certain Conventional Weapons Which May be Deemed to be Excessively Injurious or to Have Indiscriminate Effects (CCW) prohibits and restricts the use of incendiary weapons in civilian populations. It defines an incendiary weapon as "any weapon or munition which is primarily designed to set fire to objects or to cause burn injury to persons"; this definition excludes "munitions which may have incidental effects, such as illuminants, tracers, smoke or signaling systems." Under that qualification, WP is not necessarily considered an "incendiary weapon" if it incidentally sets buildings on fire. The United States has ratified other protocols and amendments of the CCW, but it has not ratified Protocol III.
> Treatment
> ...



Where WP is shown to be intentionally used on Civilian Populations there is a problem.


----------



## toastman (Jun 20, 2013)

Intense said:


> krych3k said:
> 
> 
> > What is wrong with the use of WP?  Oh, right.  Nothing.
> ...



Except, it was used as a smokescreen, not to burn Palestinians. They have not used it since and have stated they wont use it in future confrontations/wars


----------



## Coyote (Jun 20, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > HistoryBefore67 said:
> ...



So to summarize, the only argument you seem to have is something along the lines of: "_the UN hates Israel, all the human rights organizations hate Israel, and it's all propaganda and lies but don't expect *me* to back up my claims_".

Either you think you are really special or it doesn't take much to insult your "intelligence".


----------



## krych3k (Jun 20, 2013)

Intense said:


> krych3k said:
> 
> 
> > What is wrong with the use of WP?  Oh, right.  Nothing.
> ...



As opposed to what?  A "military population"?


----------



## Coyote (Jun 20, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> Just as being pro bono means you don't like Cher.
> 
> Wait... that's wrong.
> 
> krych3k is right, though.



So, in other words, all those Israeli's who are working to improve justice and rights for Palestinians are anti-semitic.

Go figure.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 20, 2013)




----------



## Coyote (Jun 20, 2013)

krych3k said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > HistoryBefore67 said:
> ...



I didn't make false accusations.  I'm referring to material in the OP.  Surely, if it's "stupidity" and "false" you should have no problem refuting it with fact.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 20, 2013)

A little girl named Fera has burns all over her body and her mother died from burns and other family members died. And the deaths and injuries were caused when Israel used white phosphorous against civilians in ground operations during Cast Lead.


----------



## Coyote (Jun 20, 2013)

There was no valid reason to use WP in that particular instance.  None.


----------



## Sweet_Caroline (Jun 20, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> A little girl named Fera has burns all over her body and her mother died from burns and other family members died. And the deaths and injuries were caused when Israel used white phosphorous against civilians in ground operations during Cast Lead.



Why was this girl and mother outside and not taking shelter or did she live in the houses where Hamas forced the residents out at gunpoint in order for those residents to be again used as pawns in their campaign?


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 20, 2013)

Treatment is sought in U.S. for 3-year-old victim of white phosphorus attack in Gaza

One day human-rights-worker Fares Akram brought my group to a house in Beit Lahiya in the north of Gaza. He wanted to show us the hole in the roof made by a white phosphorus shell. It was smaller than a manhole, and throughout the apartment building the walls were still blackened and the studs charred.The matriarch in that house was Sabah Abu Halima, 45. Today she is a psychological wreck. In the few instants in which the long tentacles of white phosphorus were trapped in her house, she lost her husband, three sons, and her only daughter. Relief workers from the*Palestinian Children&#8217;s Relief Fund*say that Sabah is plagued by "nightmares and deep feelings of sadness."Sabah also lost a daughter-in-law. The woman, whose name I don&#8217;t know, died in Egypt, being treated for her burns after the war. When this woman whose name I don&#8217;t know died, her badly-burned daughter was alongside her: 3-year-old Farah Abu Halima. The Egyptian hospital sent the girl back to Gaza before long, not fully treated. Her picture is below. An uncle is holding her. Farah is also psychologically damaged. She can&#8217;t remove her fingers from her mouth when people come to visit, and she clings to her uncle.*Farah will need months of surgeries, and steady psychological assessment. Her grandmother would be the natural relative to accompany her, but the grandmother is a wreck. An aunt will come with her. (Farah is dependent on her uncle, but Sosebee&#8217;s fund has learned that they can&#8217;t bring Arab men into the U.S. for a number of reasons.)   Treatment is sought in U.S. for 3-year-old victim of white phosphorus attack in Gaza | Mondoweiss.


----------



## Coyote (Jun 20, 2013)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > A little girl named Fera has burns all over her body and her mother died from burns and other family members died. And the deaths and injuries were caused when Israel used white phosphorous against civilians in ground operations during Cast Lead.
> ...



There was no clear shelter and civilians received contradictory information on safety.  In addition, places that were supposed to be shelter ended up under attack.

There's no evidence that Hamas forced residents out at gunpoint.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 20, 2013)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > A little girl named Fera has burns all over her body and her mother died from burns and other family members died. And the deaths and injuries were caused when Israel used white phosphorous against civilians in ground operations during Cast Lead.
> ...



The civilian family were attacked in their civilian home with white phosphorous. This case is discussed by many human rights groups, to include Amnesty and Btselem and HRW.


----------



## krych3k (Jun 20, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



WP cannot get into people's homes if they simply close their windows and doors.


----------



## krych3k (Jun 20, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



A bedroom is sufficient shelter from WP.  Do you know what WP is?


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 20, 2013)

Farah abu Halima, victim of white phosphorus attack, is on her way to California

Great news. Farah Abu Halima, a three-year-old who was badly injured by an Israeli white phosphorus attack that destroyed most of her family last January, has reportedly left Gaza and is in Egypt now with her grandmother. She has a visa to the U.S. and is to fly out on Saturday, headed for hospital treatment in San Diego. In the photo above, you can see the burns on her chin and throat. The burns across her abdomen and legs are far worse and have already affected her growth. Her hand is also damaged.   Farah abu Halima, victim of white phosphorus attack, is on her way to California | Mondoweiss


----------



## krych3k (Jun 20, 2013)

"WP destroyed most of her family"?


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 20, 2013)

A family lost in white phosphorous shelling

Eman Mohammed*25 May 2009The Abu Halima family&#8217;s agony began when the family was taking shelter from Israeli missiles in the foyer of their two-floor home in the Jabaliya area of the northern Gaza Strip on 11 January when two white phosphorous bombs struck. The father of the family, Saad Ala Abu Halima was instantly killed along with his three sons, Abed Raheem (14), Zaid (10) and Hamza (8), along with his only daughter, one-year-old Shahed.   A family lost in white phosphorous shelling | The Electronic Intifada


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 20, 2013)

Gaza phosphorus casualties relive Israel's three-week war. Investigation of the Halima family began in the burns unit at Shifa, the largest hospital in Gaza. During its military operations Israel had denied using white phosphorus shells improperly, meaning it was not used against civilians or in civilian areas. But the case of Sabbah Abu Halima, 45, suggested otherwise.She had been brought into the hospital with what appeared to be mild burns to her right forearm, left lower leg and feet. Without experience of white phosphorus, the staff, led by the unit's director, Nafiz Abu Shabaan, wiped the wounds, bound them and sent her on her way. "But two days later she came back, complaining of pain and when we opened the bandages we found her wounds still smoking and much, much bigger. Her arm was down to the bone and tendons, that is all that is left," he said.Sitting on her hospital bed and wincing with pain when her bandages pinched, Mrs Halima gave an initial account of what happened. She described how her family had gathered to eat in a first-storey room at the family home in the village of Atatra. It lies on the northern edge of Gaza and while it was never likely to be a target during the air assault phase of Israel's operation Cast Lead, its proximity to the fence with Israel meant it was in the front line for the ground offensive."The first shells landed outside and we all stood up and went into the hall and a bedroom because we thought it was safe. That was when a shell came through the roof and exploded. My husband, Saadallah, was holding some of the children but his head was cut off. There was fire and smoke everywhere and the baby Shahed fell to the ground. I heard her cry 'mama, mama, mama', and then she stopped," Mrs Halima said. The house should be a 20-minute drive from Shifa but the conflict has turned roads into slow obstacle courses with cars having to slalom round craters, heaps of rubble and bloated carcasses of livestock. The Halima house lies just off a main road in Atatra up a muddy alley leading to fields of hothouses.Outside the house lay evidence of the shelling Mrs Halima described. Two white phosphorus shell cases, originally painted light green but burnt by detonations with the metal bent back like tulip petals, were on the ground.    Gaza phosphorus casualties relive Israel's three-week war - Telegraph


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 20, 2013)

Testimony: Members of Abu Halima family killed and burned in army's bombing of their house, 3 January 2009

On 29 March, ten weeks after giving her testimony to B'Tselem, Ghada Abu Halima died in an Egyptian hospital from injuries she suffered when struck by the white phosphorous.Until last week, I lived with my husband, Muhammad, 24, and our two little daughters, Farah, 3, and Aya, 6 months, in the a-Sifa section of Beit Lahiya. We lived in the same house as Muhammad's parents, Sa'dallah Abu Halima, 44, and Sabah Abu Halima, 44, and his brothers and sisters: &#8216;Omar, 18, Yusef, 16, &#8216;Abd a-Rahim, 13, Zeid, 11, Hamzah, 10, &#8216;Ali, 4, and baby Shahd, 1.Our house had two floors. On the first floor were 250 square meters of storage rooms, and we lived on the second floor. We are farmers and have land next to the house.On Saturday night [3 January], Israeli jets dropped leaflets calling on residents of the area to leave their homes. The army did the same thing in previous incursions and we didn't leave the house, so this time, too, we decided not to leave.Around 4 P.M. the next day [4 January], when all the family was in the house, the army started to shell our area. A few minutes later, shells landed on our house. Fire broke out in the house and several members of the family burned to death: my father-in-law, his baby daughter Shahd, and three of his sons - &#8216;Abd a-Rahim, Zeid and Hamzah.    Http://www.btselem.org/testimonies/20090104_abu_halima_home_set_on_fire_by_shelling


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 20, 2013)




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## MHunterB (Jun 20, 2013)

Sherri seems unable to remember the many previous discussions where the GC's were discussed and where it was determined that Israeli use of WP rounds in general did not appear to violate the GC's..... of course there are sometimes tragic errors and occasional wrong acts in the midst of a war, but those are exceptions and should not be mischaracterized as willful departure from GC protocols.

It is very sad indeed that children suffer, and that children in Gaza have suffered so because their HAMAS government chooses continually to permit rocket attacks upon Israeli children and other civilians.   The children of Sderot and Ashkelon haven't done anything to excuse the attacks upon them.

And no, the amazing ineffectiveness of HAMAS terrorist attacks upon civilian Israelis in no way mitigates the act of launching a rocket INDISCRIMINATELY.  Each one of those launches is a war crime, a crime against humanity, attempted murder of children.

There is absolutely no justification for those crimes by HAMAS.  After a few THOUSAND such attempted murders, the Israelis chose to respond.  The results are the responsibility of HAMAS.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Jun 20, 2013)

And still the rockets rain into Israel from Gaza.


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## MHunterB (Jun 20, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



Don't you suppose it might be a bit difficult for anyone to get such evidence - considering HAMAS is so prone to dealing with criticism by tossing the critic off a 7 story building?


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 20, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> Sherri seems unable to remember the many previous discussions where the GC's were discussed and where it was determined that Israeli use of WP rounds in general did not appear to violate the GC's..... of course there are sometimes tragic errors and occasional wrong acts in the midst of a war, but those are exceptions and should not be mischaracterized as willful departure from GC protocols.
> 
> It is very sad indeed that children suffer, and that children in Gaza have suffered so because their HAMAS government chooses continually to permit rocket attacks upon Israeli children and other civilians.   The children of Sderot and Ashkelon haven't done anything to excuse the attacks upon them.
> 
> ...



Your post is complete BS. No human rights groups have found Israels use of WP to be lawful. Stop with the lies.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 20, 2013)




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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 20, 2013)

April 15, 2009*Cast Lead: Report on the Abu Halima family in Beit Lahiya[RAMALLAH, 15 April 2009] - On 4 January 2009, white phosphorus shells struck the house of the Abu Halima family in Beit Lahiya (northern Gaza) following Israels ground invasion during Operation Cast Lead.Four siblings, Shahd (1.5), Hamza (7), Zaid (10) and Abed al-Rahim (13) and their father were killed in the explosion and fire that ensued. Another female relative died from her injuries almost three months later in a hospital in Egypt. Several other family members, including their mother, two other siblings, Ali (5) and Yousef (15), and a 3-year-old niece suffered white phosphorus burns. The 3-year-old remains hospitalized in Egypt with life threatening third degree burns.As family members attempted to evacuate the injured, they came under gunfire from Israeli soldiers killing two cousins aged 16 and 17, and wounding yet another sibling aged 17, as well as an adult female relative.In total, eight members of the Abu Halima family were killed, including six children:Shahd Sa'dallah Matar Abu Halima (1.5)Hamza Sa'dallah Matar Abu Halima (7)Zaid Sa'dallah Matar Abu Halima (10)Abed al-Rahim Sa'dallah Matar Abu Halima (13)Mohammad Hekmat Matar Abu Halima (16)Matar Sa'd Matar Abu Halima (17)Seven family members were injured, including four children:Farah Mohammad Sa'dallah Abu Halima (3)Ali Sa'dallah Matar Abu Halima (5)Yousef Sa'dallah Matar Abu Halima (15)Omar Sa'dallah Matar Abu Halima (17)   DCI/PS - Cast Lead: Report on the Abu Halima family in Beit Lahiya.  This is a report from the childrens human rights group DCI Palestine.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 20, 2013)

Outcry Erupts Over Reports That Israel Used Phosphorus Arms on Gazans

Published: January 21, 2009. In early January, a week into*Israels war in Gaza, the home of Sabah Abu Halima was hit by an Israeli shell. Ms. Abu Halima, the matriarch of a farming family in the northern Gaza area of Beit Lahiya, was caught in an inferno that burned her husband and four of their nine children to deathMeanwhile,*Amnesty International*said it found indisputable evidence of widespread use of white phosphorus in densely populated residential areas in Gaza City and in the north. In a statement, it said its investigators saw streets and alleyways littered with evidence of the use of white phosphorus, including still-burning wedges and the remnants of the shells and canisters fired by the Israeli Army. It called such use a likely war crime and demanded a full international investigation.The use of white phosphorus and other incendiary weapons is covered in one protocol of a 1980 international treaty,*the Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons, that bans making civilians the object of attack by such arms. More broadly, though, international officials have acknowledged that militaries can legitimately use the substance in some cases.    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/22/world/middleeast/22phosphorus.html?_r=0


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 20, 2013)

July 2nd, 2009 -*Operation &#8216;Cast Lead&#8217;: 22 Days of Death and Destruction

Report by Amnesty International

*

&#8230;] During Operation &#8216;Cast Lead&#8217; Israeli forces made extensive use of white phosphorus, often launched from 155mm artillery shells, in residential areas, causing death and injuries to civilians. Homes, schools, medical facilities and UN buildings - all civilian objects - took direct hits. [&#8230;]

*

&#8220;[&#8230;] In Khuza&#8217;a, east of Khan Yunis, in the south of Gaza, Amnesty International delegates found white phosphorus artillery shells, some whole and some in fragments, in several homes in a densely populated residential area. In one home, 47-year-old Hanan al-Najjar, a mother of four, was killed by one such shell. She and her family had fled their home further east and were staying with relatives in a more built-up residential area, thinking that they would be safer there. On the evening of 10 January 2009 the area was shelled with white phosphorus. Hanan&#8217;s husband and children told Amnesty International that one of the artillery shells, after having discharged the white phosphorus wedges, crashed through the roof of the house and travelled through two rooms and exploded in the hall. A large fragment hit Hanan in the chest, almost severing the upper part of her body. She was killed instantly, in front of her children and relatives, most of whom were injured. Her four children all sustained burns. Her seven-year-old daughter, Aya, also suffered a broken arm, and her cousin Ihsan, 26, lost her right eye. [&#8230;]

*

&#8220;[&#8230;] White phosphorus continued to be used until the last day of Operation &#8216;Cast Lead&#8217;, on 17 January 2009. On that day a white phosphorus artillery shell exploded at about 6am in an UNRWA primary school in Beit Lahia, where more than 1,500 people were sheltering. Two children, Muhammad al-Ashqar and his brother Bilal, aged five and seven respectively, were killed in the classroom where they were sleeping with their parents, siblings and some 30 other relatives, several of whom were injured. The children&#8217;s mother, 28-year-old Anjud, sustained serious injuries to the head and other parts of the body. Her right hand had to be amputated. The children&#8217;s 18-year-old cousin Mona lost her left leg in the attack. [&#8230;]

*

&#8220;[&#8230;] Artillery attacks in general and white phosphorus attacks in particular in densely populated areas were indiscriminate and as such unlawful. In addition to the deaths and injury caused, the situation was made worse by the Israeli authorities&#8217; failure to disclose, and in fact their repeated denial, that white phosphorus was being used by their forces. This delayed adequate treatment for the victims of such attacks and caused them additional suffering, and in some cases victims who could have been saved died. [&#8230;]&#8221;    The War Profiteers - White Phosphorus Weapons in Gaza


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 20, 2013)

Rain of Fire: White Phosphorus in Gaza*March 25, 2009

During Israel's 22-day military operations in Gaza, from December 27, 2008 to January 18, 2009, named Operation Cast Lead, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) repeatedly exploded white phosphorus munitions in the air over populated areas, killing and injuring civilians, and damaging civilian structures, including a school, a market, a humanitarian aid warehouse and a hospital. Senior Military Analyst Marc Garlasco discusses Human Rights Watch's on the ground investigation and findings.NEWS RELEASE:*Israel: White Phosphorus Use Evidence of War Crimes. REPORT:*Rain of Fire.   Rain of Fire: White Phosphorus in Gaza | Human Rights Watch


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## MHunterB (Jun 20, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> > Sherri seems unable to remember the many previous discussions where the GC's were discussed and where it was determined that Israeli use of WP rounds in general did not appear to violate the GC's..... of course there are sometimes tragic errors and occasional wrong acts in the midst of a war, but those are exceptions and should not be mischaracterized as willful departure from GC protocols.
> ...



No amount of unverifiable 'testimonials' from Gazan civilians is in any way 'proof' of the Israeli intent or usage being *officially* in violation of the GC.   That is a matter which cannot be determined strictly by accounts from civilians who were unfortunate enough to be in the vicinity of combat.

And no amount of NOISE is going to change the fact that HAMAS committed THOUSANDS of exactly the same type of crime against the Israeli people and some refuse to acknowledge those crimes OR their effect in exacerbating the situation.

As everyone knows, laws are ALWAYS subject to some degree of interpretation:  The words above appear to be a claim that no use of WP in combat is ever legal: that is a false.  IOW, you appear to have lied.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 20, 2013)

All of the human rights groups call Israels use of WP war crimes and violations of The Fourth Geneva Convention.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 20, 2013)

I am hopeul one day the war criminals who orchestrated these war crimes against civilians and children will be tried for their crimes.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 20, 2013)

HRW video addressing Israels use of WP.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 20, 2013)

Professor Norman FInklestein speaks about the Gaza Cast Lead massacre and Israels unlawful use of WP.


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## Indofred (Jun 21, 2013)

LOads of photos and videos from various sources that clearly show WP munitions being used against civilian targets.

The simple fact is; while ever Israel is supported by America blocking any action against Israel for its war crimes - Israel knows it can get away with anything.

America should be ashamed.


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## Lipush (Jun 21, 2013)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> And still the rockets rain into Israel from Gaza.



Rockets which contain WP themselves.

But let Palestinian-ass-lickers ignore that tiny fact.


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## Indofred (Jun 21, 2013)

Lipush said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> > And still the rockets rain into Israel from Gaza.
> ...



Big claim - prove it.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 21, 2013)

And we want that to be documented by the human rights groups, or it has no credibility.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 21, 2013)

Post 145, in that video by Professor Howard Finklestein, he discloses as of 2010 over 300 human rights groups reports had been written investigating and documenting war crimes of Israel carried out during Cast Lead. Further, these human rights groups all concluded Palestinians did not use civilians as human shields or force civilians from their homes or force civilians to stay in their homes.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Jun 21, 2013)

Indofred said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Sweet_Caroline said:
> ...



Hamas now firing phosphorus-filled mortar shells into Israel | World Tribune

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/hamas-launches-first-phosphorus-rocket-at-negev-no-injuries-reported-1.268159


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## Coyote (Jun 21, 2013)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



If it is true it should be roundly condemned.

The article does say however:


> Two of the shells *were said to have contained* a phosphorus warhead. A 1980 convention outlawed the firing of phosphorus shells toward civilian targets, and in 2009 Hamas accused Israel of firing phosphorus shells toward Gaza City.



Is there any more evidence?  There was substantial evidence as well as injuries to show that WP was used in Gaza.


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## Coyote (Jun 21, 2013)

There is absolutely NO reason to use WP on civilians.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Jun 21, 2013)

Coyote said:


> There is absolutely NO reason to use WP on civilians.



And there is absolutely NO reason to deliberately target civilians and not the military as Hamas does.  Plus they use kids and citizens as human shields from their rocket launching sites.  

And this may interest some.  Hiding within the Red Cross office, by force no doubt.  

http://www.jpost.com/Breaking-News/Hamas-Three-convicted-after-579-days-in-Red-Cross-Office


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## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 21, 2013)

Coyote said:


> There is absolutely NO reason to use WP on civilians.



Putting the issue of WP to the side for a moment, how do you define a "civilian" target?

If rocket launchers are, for example, placed on the roof of a hospital or school, is that a civilian target or a military target?

If a group of terrorists have their headquarters in an apartment building, is that a civilian target or a military target?

If a factory makes farming equipment on floors 1-3, and bombs in the basement, is that a civilian target or a military target?


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## Coyote (Jun 21, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > There is absolutely NO reason to use WP on civilians.
> ...



I think it can be very difficult to define "civilian targets" in the context you are talking about and because, in a place as densely populated as Gaza - you have to be very careful about the methods you use.


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## Coyote (Jun 21, 2013)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > There is absolutely NO reason to use WP on civilians.
> ...



Unfortunately Israel also uses kids as human shields - a practice I find dispicable on both sides.

However - there is a difference between using WP and targeting civilians. WP has no business being used in urban areas and especially, in the daylight.  Far less damaging smoke shells are an available alternative.


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## MHunterB (Jun 21, 2013)

Amnesty: Israel, Hamas committed war crimes in Gaza assault | Maan News Agency

Post #150:  Make that '299' HR agencies:  "The group also said the military wing of Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups fired rockets and other weapons into Israel, killing civilians and damaging civilian property."

PS:  There is no reliable documentation for the HAMAS claims that Israel "...deliberately targeted and murdered Palestinian civilians....  as the HAMAS spokesperson claimed.  

However, *every unguided rocket sent into Israeli territory is exactly as much a war crime as the improper use of WP by Israel.   And there have been *thousands* of such rockets.* 

If Israel were to send over small balloons with 'payloads' of sterile distilled water, that would constitute a border violation just the same.


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## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 21, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Unfortunately Israel also uses kids as human shields - a practice I find dispicable on both sides.



You are, pardon my French, full of shit.  Gaza clearly hides behind its own children to shield its "fighters" from Israeli attacks.  Israel (despite the unsubstantiated claims you are referring to) has NEVER engaged in such a practice.  Rather, Israel has been forced to build bomb shelters in all of its border towns to protect its children from rocket fire.  



> However - there is a difference between using WP and targeting civilians. WP has no business being used in urban areas and especially, in the daylight.  Far less damaging smoke shells are an available alternative.



You couldn't answer my questions, so you're right back on your talking points.  This is a waste of time.


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## MHunterB (Jun 21, 2013)

Gaza: Hamas Report Whitewashes War Crimes | Human Rights Watch

"Hamas can spin the story and deny the evidence, but *hundreds of rockets rained down on civilian areas in Israel where no military installations were located*," said Joe Stork, deputy Middle East director at Human Rights Watch.  "*Hamas leaders at the time indicated they were intending to harm civilians*."

"Hamas prepared its report in response to the findings of the United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict, headed by Justice Richard Goldstone.  The Goldstone report said that rocket attacks by Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups constituted war crimes and perhaps crimes against humanity."

If they are not hypocrites, the 'pro-Palestinian' posters here will acknowledge and condemn these attacks with the same intensity and frequency they do the alleged 'war crimes' of the Israeli government.   When that has happened, I will begin to consider it worth my time to 'discuss' the topic with them.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Jun 21, 2013)

Israel drops leaflets and sends messages warning people that a aerial bombardment of legitimate targets is about to begin.  How that for consideration.


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## Coyote (Jun 21, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Unfortunately Israel also uses kids as human shields - a practice I find dispicable on both sides.
> ...



I don't think it's me that is using talking points.  There are substantiated claims that Israel has used human shields and in fact, one case went through the courts.  The fact that you choose to ignore this in order to spout your propaganda and refuse to discuss it is not my lacking but yours.

You might also think about those bomb shelters and ask yourself why it is that Arab villages within Israel near the border seldom have them?  There are inequities.  It won't kill you or destroy Israel to examine them.





> You couldn't answer my questions, so you're right back on your talking points.  This is a waste of time.



I believe I've spent considerably more time and patience answering your questions for example on WP, alternatives that were available, etc while all I've got in return from you is vitriolic spew.

Yes.  It is a waste of time.  There are other posters here far more capable of a rational dialogue.


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## Coyote (Jun 21, 2013)

Coyote said:


> HistoryBefore67 said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



I am guessing that this is where History thinks I'm not answering his questions so I'll expand on what he said.

In the examples he gave, targets are both civilian and military.  My answer was to say that because of that, methods should be used that cause the least amount of civilian casualties and a great deal of care should be taken in regards to targeting.

Is that sufficient or is the only answer acceptable to you a black/white yes/no arrangement?


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## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 21, 2013)

Israel has never had a POLICY of using "human shields."  Every accusation (most of which are entirely bogus) has involved unauthorized acts of individuals.

Hamas and the other terrorist groups operating in Gaza, by contract, unquestionably have a POLICY of using its civilians as human shields.

As for why Gaza lacks bomb shelters... maybe because they spend too much time digging tunnels to smuggle in weapons, rather than doing something productive for their own people.


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## toastman (Jun 21, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> Israel has never had a POLICY of using "human shields."  Every accusation (most of which are entirely bogus) has involved unauthorized acts of individuals.
> 
> Hamas and the other terrorist groups operating in Gaza, by contract, unquestionably have a POLICY of using its civilians as human shields.
> 
> As for why Gaza lacks bomb shelters... maybe because they spend too much time digging tunnels to smuggle in weapons, rather than doing something productive for their own people.



Why would Hamas build bomb shelters ?? That would reduce civilian casualties. They need their civilians to be killed so they can gain more world sympathy.


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## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 21, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > HistoryBefore67 said:
> ...



Israel routinely drops fliers advising civilians who are being used as shields to evacuate before hitting military targets.  Sometimes, though, those types of precautions are either impractical or ineffective.  

So what would you have Israel do?  Simply let the Arabs fire rockets with impunity for fear of civilian casualties, or protect its own citizens?  You can't always have it both ways.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Jun 21, 2013)

Violations of the Geneva Convention with regards to human shields.  An excellent video, well worth seeing.  

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70Oqo_wmuGo]Hamas Exploitation of Civilians as Human Shields - YouTube[/ame]


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## Coyote (Jun 21, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> Israel has never had a POLICY of using "human shields."  Every accusation (most of which are entirely bogus) has involved unauthorized acts of individuals.
> 
> Hamas and the other terrorist groups operating in Gaza, by contract, unquestionably have a POLICY of using its civilians as human shields.
> 
> As for why Gaza lacks bomb shelters... maybe because they spend too much time digging tunnels to smuggle in weapons, rather than doing something productive for their own people.



I said Arab villages *within Israel* - NOT Gaza. 

Israel may not have a "policy" of doing so but they are doing so.

Not to defend Hamas in any way (because I think they are criminal in that they target civilians almost exclusively) but - perhaps you show me their "policy" that states using human shields as part of their strategy.


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## toastman (Jun 21, 2013)

Coyote said:


> HistoryBefore67 said:
> 
> 
> > Israel has never had a POLICY of using "human shields."  Every accusation (most of which are entirely bogus) has involved unauthorized acts of individuals.
> ...



Firing from civilian areas such as houses, knowing full well that Israel will launch missiles there to eliminate the threat, is using civilians as human shields.


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## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 21, 2013)

Coyote said:


> HistoryBefore67 said:
> 
> 
> > I said Arab villages *within Israel* - NOT Gaza.
> ...


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## Coyote (Jun 21, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


  In terms of that Gaza attack, they were - targets were changing and targeting appeared to be done on the fly.  Even a UN building and journalist quarters were hit.  



> So what would you have Israel do?  Simply let the Arabs fire rockets with impunity for fear of civilian casualties, or protect its own citizens?  You can't always have it both ways.



I expect them NOT to use WP in situations were it was specifically contraindicated and unnecessary.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Jun 21, 2013)

toastman said:


> HistoryBefore67 said:
> 
> 
> > Israel has never had a POLICY of using "human shields."  Every accusation (most of which are entirely bogus) has involved unauthorized acts of individuals.
> ...



Hamas are *delighted* when their civilians die.  They look on death not like we would do, but as a means to further their cause.


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## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 21, 2013)

Coyote said:


> HistoryBefore67 said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



We're not talking about WP.  Every time you get backed into a corner, you throw that out to take the discussion in another direction.

So, again... when terrorists fire rockets from within civilian areas in Gaza, and precautions are ineffective to separate the terrorists from the civilians... what would have have Israel do?  Simply tolerate the attacks?


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## toastman (Jun 21, 2013)

Stop launching rockets and Israel will have no reason to shoot back. It really is THAT simple !!


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## Coyote (Jun 21, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> Because the terrorists in Gaza routinely target Arab villages?



Your answer doesn't make much sense when you consider Hamas doesn't do much in the way of targeting - they fire off rockets and hope they have mass casualties on the Israeli side - it makes no difference to them with it's Jews or Arab citizens and the Arab villages are shelled as often as the Jewish ones.




> You have no proof of that, and yet you keep repeating it as if its a fact.



It's stated in the Goldstone report (and, was  not retracted).  It's also in the UN report, it's been investigated by B'tselem.  Despite court rulings - they've continued to do so.  You keep asking for "proof" yet you have been unable to show that the UN report is wrong on this.

Human Shield: Use of Palestinian Civilians as Human Shields in Violation of High Court Order | B'Tselem
Palestinian brothers: Israel used us as human shields in Gaza war | World news | guardian.co.uk
Breaking the Silence ? Database
BBC News - Israeli troops demoted over Gaza 'human shield' boy




> > Not to defend Hamas in any way (because I think they are criminal in that they target civilians almost exclusively) but - perhaps you show me their "policy" that states using human shields as part of their strategy.
> 
> 
> 
> When you do continually engage in the same practice, it certainly can be inferred that it is policy.  Plus, let's not forget which of the two cultures finds merit in the notion of martyrdom.



IDF have engaged in it a number of times, in defiance of court rulings and punishment is light - is it an unofficial policy?


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## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 21, 2013)

You continue to dodge my question, while you fabricate and/or grossly exaggerate claims of Israel using human shields.

When you're ready to answer my question, let me know.


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## Coyote (Jun 21, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> You continue to dodge my question, while you fabricate and/or grossly exaggerate claims of Israel using human shields.
> 
> When you're ready to answer my question, let me know.



Bull.

I've provided *you* with far more info then you have in return, including sources while all you bring to the table is your mouth.

Please show proof that the UN report and those articles are wrong on the use of human shields by the IDF.


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## Coyote (Jun 21, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > HistoryBefore67 said:
> ...



In this particular instance you CAN NOT seperate out the use of WP because that is what I specifically objected to in earlier posts where WP was part of the discussion. 

I have never stated I object to Israel going into Gaza in retaliation for rocket attacks.  You've created a strawman here.


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## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 21, 2013)

This is no longer a discussion.  You dodge questions and then play the "here's a BS report - now disprove it" game.  

I'm not interested.

Have a nice day.


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## Coyote (Jun 21, 2013)

Your sole contribution here is insults - you claim something is bogus, ignore multiple sources - offer not a thing in response to refute those sources and then step back and have the audacity to claim "this is no longer a discussion".

Amusing.

Why don't you simply be honest about it and say you can't refute it?

It's one simple little question: can you show proof that the UN report and those articles are wrong on the use of human shields by the IDF?


----------



## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 21, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Your sole contribution here is insults - you claim something is bogus, ignore multiple sources - offer not a thing in response to refute those sources and then step back and have the audacity to claim "this is no longer a discussion"
> 
> Amusing.
> 
> ...



There's nothing to refute.  What you are calling sources (1) involve definitions of the term "human shields" that are entirely different from Hamas' obvious use of its own people to protect its fighters/weapons from Israeli retaliation, (2) are unsubstantiated claims by "Palestinians," who constantly fabricate these types of claims, reported by organizations that have a predisposition against Israel, and (3) frequently involve isolated incidents that - if true - would be contrary to Israeli policy.

So keep posting links rather than answering a simple question:

If a rocket is fired from a civilian area in Gaza, and Israel is unable to secure the evacuation of the civilians that are present, should it: 

a) Attack the target nonetheless to protect its own people; or
b) do nothing.

I'm sorry that pointed questions that are based upon real scenarios seem to insult you.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 21, 2013)

Lipush said:


> Thought we all agreed on that Al-Durah was not killed by the IDF> ?
> 
> Or are there still morons out there who believe otherwise?



No, Palestinians and human rights groups have been reporting he was killed by the IDF since 9/30/2000.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 21, 2013)

krych3k said:


> What I'm saying is that children who are part of the infrastructure of terrorism are valid targets for liquidation, or in some cases, for arrest and interrogation.  They are certainly not eligible for due process rights in such circumstances.



None of these statements have any basis under intl law.


----------



## toastman (Jun 21, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Your sole contribution here is insults - you claim something is bogus, ignore multiple sources - offer not a thing in response to refute those sources and then step back and have the audacity to claim "this is no longer a discussion".
> 
> Amusing.
> 
> ...



Is it possible that some soldiers have used Palestinians as human shields? Yes.
But like HB67, it is absolutely positively NOT a policy of the IDF.  Do you agree with me on that part ?


----------



## toastman (Jun 21, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Thought we all agreed on that Al-Durah was not killed by the IDF> ?
> ...



Did you see an IDF soldier shoot him ? Did anyone see an IDF soldier shoot him ? NO and NO.
Was there a bullet removed from his body that is the same that the IDF uses? No

Palestinians will ALWAYS use incidents like this to demonize Israel. But there is no evidence to prove he was shot by an IDF soldier. 

Stop pretending like you were there Sherri


----------



## Coyote (Jun 21, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Your sole contribution here is insults - you claim something is bogus, ignore multiple sources - offer not a thing in response to refute those sources and then step back and have the audacity to claim "this is no longer a discussion"
> ...



This is the definition:

human shield
n.
1. A person who volunteers or is forced to take up a position at a likely military target as a means of forestalling an enemy attack.
2. A person who is used as a shield by someone in a confrontation with the police in order to prevent capture.

Using a child to enter a building ahead of the soldier is certainly within #1 and is certainly as reprehensible as Hamas' use of human sheilds.



> (2) are unsubstantiated claims by "Palestinians," who constantly fabricate these types of claims, reported by organizations that have a predisposition against Israel, and (3) frequently involve isolated incidents that - if true - would be contrary to Israeli policy.



Read the articles - they are not unsubstantiated.

It may be contrary to "policy" but it happens, and it happens more than a few times.



> So keep posting links rather than answering a simple question:



Make up your mind on what it is you want.  First you ask for sources and proof, then you say that isn't what you want? 



> If a rocket is fired from a civilian area in Gaza, and Israel is unable to secure the evacuation of the civilians that are present, should it:
> 
> a) Attack the target nonetheless to protect its own people; or
> b) do nothing.



The answer is a) - with particular consideration in the degree of force to be used given the presence of civilians.



> I'm sorry that pointed questions that are based upon real scenarios seem to insult you.



I'm not in the least insulted.  Your constantly moving targets and lack of any actual info is simply exasperating.

Now, perhaps you can answer my questions and show me proof that these claims that the IDF uses human sheilds are false.  Or, you can keep dodging.


----------



## Coyote (Jun 21, 2013)

toastman said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Your sole contribution here is insults - you claim something is bogus, ignore multiple sources - offer not a thing in response to refute those sources and then step back and have the audacity to claim "this is no longer a discussion".
> ...



I'll say what I said earlier:  IDF have engaged in this a number of times, in defiance of court rulings and when caught punishment is light.  So, while it's not the official policy and it is illegal - is it an unofficial policy?  Shouldn't the punishment be more severe if they truly do not want their solders doing this?


----------



## Sweet_Caroline (Jun 21, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Thought we all agreed on that Al-Durah was not killed by the IDF> ?
> ...



It has been disproven.  Al-Durah was *NOT* killed by the IDF.  Keep up with the news.


----------



## toastman (Jun 21, 2013)

Coyote said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Why? Just to please Palestinians and their supporters ?


----------



## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 21, 2013)

Let's make this really simple.

If you present me with the findings of an objective third party supported by credible evidence, I'll respond.

If you present me with the findings of a _biased_ third party supported only by the unsubstantiated allegations of "Palestinians," I'm not going to waste my time "proving a negative."

If Israel's goal was to inflict maximum casualties, it hardly lacks the means to to so.  To the contrary, Israel's conflict with the "Palestinians" has resulted in fewer Arab casualties since its inception than the Syrian Civil War has inflicted in approximately 3 years.  The reason for this is, despite your efforts to assert otherwise, Israel has utilized extreme restraint in the face of continual attacks on its civilians.

That's my response.  If you don't like it... oh well.  Its not going to change becuase you post additional links.


----------



## Coyote (Jun 21, 2013)

toastman said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



No.  If they are going to claim some sort of moral highground, which they are - then they need to make darn sure they have that moral highground or stop going on about Hamas' use of human shields and just admit that they all do it.


----------



## toastman (Jun 21, 2013)

Coyote said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



LOL. Does Hamas punish their 'fighters' for launching rockets? 
Common Coyote, you're making no sense.


----------



## Coyote (Jun 21, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> Let's make this really simple.



I will type slowly for you.



> If you present me with the findings of an objective third party supported by credible evidence, I'll respond.



What you consider "objective" and I consider "objective" may not mean the same thing.



> If you present me with the findings of a _biased_ third party supported only by the unsubstantiated allegations of "Palestinians," I'm not going to waste my time "proving a negative."



*YOU* make the blanket statements that it's all bogus then claim you can't show it's bogus.  I offered multiple sources - an article, UN, B'tselem.  You offer *nothing *.



> If Israel's goal was to inflict maximum casualties, it hardly lacks the means to to so.  To the contrary, Israel's conflict with the "Palestinians" has resulted in fewer Arab casualties since its inception than the Syrian Civil War has inflicted in approximately 3 years.  The reason for this is, despite your efforts to assert otherwise, Israel has utilized extreme restraint in the face of continual attacks on its civilians.



I totally agree - Israel is far more careful, and more conscientous of civilians then any of it's opponents.  That doesn't mean it isn't over the top at times and the use of human shields and the use of WP are two examples.



> That's my response.  If you don't like it... oh well.  Its not going to change becuase you post additional links.



I don't expect any change.  You demand sources and proof.  I offer it up.  You offer none.  You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to reject it because, like my own - it's only an opinion.


----------



## Coyote (Jun 21, 2013)

toastman said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



No they do not.  But I am not defending Hamas' actions.


----------



## toastman (Jun 21, 2013)

Even if these soldiers were to receive greater punishment, Palestinians and their supporters will still find something about it to complain about, that's for sure. They're never pleased


----------



## Coyote (Jun 21, 2013)

toastman said:


> Even if these soldiers were to receive greater punishment, Palestinians and their supporters will still find something about it to complain about, that's for sure. They're never pleased



Who cares what they complain about?

Aren't there higher concepts involved here?


Doesn't it bother you that the IDF acts like Hamas and uses human shields?  Doesn't it bother you that the only punishment is a demotion and 2 months for letting a 9 yr old child be a bomb target?

We all know Hamas has no ethics.


----------



## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 21, 2013)

Coyote said:


> HistoryBefore67 said:
> 
> 
> > Let's make this really simple.
> ...



What was that you were saying about trolling and insults?



> What you consider "objective" and I consider "objective" may not mean the same thing.



So you thing the definition of "objective" is subjective? 



> *YOU* make the blanket statements that it's all bogus then claim you can't show it's bogus.  I offered multiple sources - an article, UN, B'tselem.  You offer *nothing *



You don't offer sources.  You offer reports of accusations.  Those accusations are unproven, so there is no reason for me or anyone else to respond to them.  You don't seem to understand the difference between an "allegation" and a "fact."



> I totally agree - Israel is far more careful, and more conscientous of civilians then any of it's opponents.



Then why not spend your time trying to fight against the source of the violence - i.e. the "Palestinians" (mostly in Gaza). 



> I don't expect any change.  You demand sources and proof.  I offer it up.



No, I have not demanded sources and proof, because you clearly don't know what those terms mean.  These discussions are about you raising "strawman" arguments and then demanding that I DISPROVE them.  

Its not my job to disprove every claim the "Palestinians" fabricate.


----------



## toastman (Jun 21, 2013)

Coyote said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Even if these soldiers were to receive greater punishment, Palestinians and their supporters will still find something about it to complain about, that's for sure. They're never pleased
> ...



There is absolutely no similarity between Hams and the IDF, please don't ever compare the two


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 21, 2013)

I have difficulties seeing  similarity between Hamas and Israel too. Only  Israel has killed 1519 children since 9/30/2000.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 21, 2013)

Hamas does not use civilians as human shields. As addressed in the You Tube video over 300 human rights groups written  reports about Cast Lead have found no evidence Hamas used children as human shields. But Israel did.


----------



## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 21, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Hamas does not use civilians as human shields.



The only way that statement would be accurate is if you don't consider "Palestinian" civilians to be humans.


----------



## Hyrcanus (Jun 21, 2013)

toastman said:


> There is absolutely no similarity between Hams and the IDF, please don't ever compare the two



They both are racist against the opposing side.


----------



## toastman (Jun 21, 2013)

Bullshit


----------



## Hyrcanus (Jun 21, 2013)

toastman said:


> Bullshit



Care to elaborate?


----------



## toastman (Jun 21, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Hamas does not use civilians as human shields. As addressed in the You Tube video over 300 human rights groups have written  reports about Cast Lead and none found evidence Hamas used children as human shields. But Israel did.



Then what do you call firing from civilian houses and civilian areas, when they know full well that Israel will identify the location of the firing, and strike back ??


----------



## toastman (Jun 21, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> I have difficulties seeing  similarity between Hamas and Israel too. Only  Israel has killed 1519 children since 9/30/2000.



Aside from those numbers being bullshit, Hamas is responsible for those deaths, not Israel, you terrorist supporting shill


----------



## toastman (Jun 21, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Bullshit
> ...



How can the IDF be racist when there are plenty of Arabs and Druze in the army ? 
Racism is a very strong word


----------



## Hyrcanus (Jun 21, 2013)

toastman said:


> How can the IDF be racist when there are plenty of Arabs and Druze in the army ?
> Racism is a very strong word



How can they be racist?

simple:  they treat Arabs very different than how they treat Jews.


----------



## toastman (Jun 21, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > How can the IDF be racist when there are plenty of Arabs and Druze in the army ?
> ...



Give me examples, with links


----------



## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 21, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > How can the IDF be racist when there are plenty of Arabs and Druze in the army ?
> ...



The IDF is Israel's military.  How would you suggest that they treat the Arabs who attempt to inflict acts of violence on Israel?


----------



## Hyrcanus (Jun 21, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> The IDF is Israel's military.  How would you suggest that they treat the Arabs who attempt to inflict acts of violence on Israel?



With the same respect and courtesy they treat Jews who try to inflict acts of violence on Arabs.


----------



## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 21, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> HistoryBefore67 said:
> 
> 
> > The IDF is Israel's military.  How would you suggest that they treat the Arabs who attempt to inflict acts of violence on Israel?
> ...



That's not how things work.

If Arabs attack Israel, the IDF will respond... and it won't be "courteous."

If Jews attack Arabs (outside of military actions), that's a matter for Israel's police, and they handle it through the application of civil law.


----------



## Hyrcanus (Jun 21, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> That's not how things work.
> 
> If Arabs attack Israel, the IDF will respond... and it won't be "courteous."
> 
> If Jews attack Arabs (outside of military actions), that's a matter for Israel's police, and they handle it through the application of civil law.



Wrong.  All police affairs in the West Bank are handled by the military.

You know that.  The IDF treats Jews with kid gloves when they attack Arabs, while Arabs who attack Jews are under the logic of "shoot first, ask questions later...or don't at all".


----------



## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 21, 2013)

You didn't say the West Bank, you made a broad, sweeping claim about the IDF.

As for your description of the IDF... you've been reading too many Al Jazeera Op-Ed pieces.


----------



## Hyrcanus (Jun 21, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> You didn't say the West Bank, you made a broad, sweeping claim about the IDF.
> 
> As for your description of the IDF... you've been reading too many Al Jazeera Op-Ed pieces.



Al Jazeera actually has more than a few pieces about Israel/Palestine that show Israelis in a positive light.

Several months ago they had a piece about a joint Jewish/Arab volunteer EMT force in Jerusalem.  It talked about how both sides work together, and it even showed Jewish EMTs making compliments about the hard work and commitment of the Arab EMTs.

But this topic isn't about Al Jazeera, now is it?


----------



## MHunterB (Jun 21, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Hamas does not use civilians as human shields. As addressed in the You Tube video over 300 human rights groups have written  reports about Cast Lead and none found evidence Hamas used children as human shields. But Israel did.



This is factually incorrect, as has been proven already.


----------



## MHunterB (Jun 21, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> I have difficulties seeing  similarity between Hamas and Israel too. Only  Israel has killed 1519 children since 9/30/2000.



Whoop-tee-do. HAMAS' gross incompetence doesn't mitigate HAMAS' murderous terrorist nature, not in the slightest.   Nor the total depravity of their apologists.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 21, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > Hamas does not use civilians as human shields. As addressed in the You Tube video over 300 human rights groups have written  reports about Cast Lead and none found evidence Hamas used children as human shields. But Israel did.
> ...



I accept  the findings of the humam rights groups that Hamas does not use civilians as humam shields. And I accept their findings that Israel uses civilians, to include children, as human shields.


----------



## toastman (Jun 21, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



It's not anyone elses fault but yourself that you choose to ignore what really takes place.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 21, 2013)

The human rights groups reporrts tell us all about the Truth of Israels continuing crimes against children in Palestine.


----------



## MHunterB (Jun 21, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



Then AI and HRW are not 'human rights groups' - for each of them has cited HAMAS for doing so.  Or else you only accept 'selected' findings.  It's all been posted for you many times before.


----------



## Indofred (Jun 21, 2013)

I have yet to see any pro Israeli poster condemn Israeli war crimes, including inhumane treatment of children.

That says something about the nature of the posters here and explains why so many people hate Israel.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 21, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > MHunterB said:
> ...



Cast Lead Reports, neither found Hamas used civilians as human shields. BOTH documented Israels use of civilians, that included children, as human shields.


----------



## MHunterB (Jun 21, 2013)

Indofred said:


> I have yet to see any pro Israeli poster condemn Israeli war crimes, including inhumane treatment of children.
> 
> That says something about the nature of the posters here and explains why so many people hate Israel.



Fred, it's sad that you can't find that condemnation in others' posts:  it's been there, you just don't seem able to see it.

I guess what has happened is that day after day, we are presented with all manner of inflated and exaggerated 'outrage' over anything Israel does - and the fact that HAMAS, for example, has made public statements of their intent to deliberately target civilians, goes completely unacknowledged by far too many of  those who insist they are 'against ALL violence', etc.

Tell you what, Fred:  you PM me with a link to anything you think I should express outrage over, and I'll do the same for you : ))


----------



## Indofred (Jun 21, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> Tell you what, Fred:  you PM me with a link to anything you think I should express outrage over, and I'll do the same for you : ))



I condemn all acts of violence against Israel's civilian population but do not condemn acts against the military and/or government of that country.
I hope that's clear.

No point to PM the link; just look at the accusations in my OP and tell the world if you condemn the Israeli government and IDF for this despicable behaviour.

So - do you?


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 21, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > Hamas does not use civilians as human shields. As addressed in the You Tube video over 300 human rights groups have written  reports about Cast Lead and none found evidence Hamas used children as human shields. But Israel did.
> ...



You are the one making an inaccurate allegation here. It has never been proven Hamas uses civilians as human shields. (A mother voluntarily placing her body between IDF soldiers and her son in a burning mosque, in an attempt to save the life of her son, is not Hamas unlawfully using civilians as human shields. Nor, is a neighbor trying to save her neighbors house from destruction by inhabiting the house an unlawful use by Hamas of human shields.  These were both pre Cast Lead incidents )


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 22, 2013)

Amnesty: Israel Used Children as Human Shields in Gaza

Amnesty accused Israeli forces of using children as human shields and conducting wanton attacks on civilians.July 2, 2009**| *****Amnesty on Thursday accused Israeli forces of war crimes in Gaza, saying they used children as human shields and conducted wanton attacks on civilians, in a report rejected as "unbalanced" by*Israel.The London-based*human rights*group also accused Hamas of war crimes, but said it found no evidence to support Israeli claims that Gaza's Islamist rulers used civilians as human shields during Israel's massive 22-day offensive.   Amnesty: Israel Used Children as Human Shields in Gaza | Alternet


----------



## MHunterB (Jun 22, 2013)

Gaza: Hamas Report Whitewashes War Crimes | Human Rights Watch

"Hamas can spin the story and deny the evidence, but *hundreds of rockets rained down on civilian areas in Israel where no military installations were located," *said Joe Stork, deputy Middle East director at Human Rights Watch.  "*Hamas leaders at the time indicated they were intending to harm civilians."*

Since 2001, Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups in Gaza have fired thousands of rockets deliberately or indiscriminately at civilian areas in Israel. 

*The balance of power and the politics of a conflict are never justifications for a warring party to target civilians, Human Rights Watch said.  Violations of the laws of war by one party do not justify violations by the other side.*

Which part of the bolded words above is unclear?


----------



## MHunterB (Jun 22, 2013)

Fred:  Whoever is using torture on children or using them as human shields is wrong and it must stop.

The assumption has been made, though, that such is 'policy' and 'official' in Israel:  it surely is NOT legal there.
That assumption is extremely premature, as far as I can tell.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 22, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> Gaza: Hamas Report Whitewashes War Crimes | Human Rights Watch
> 
> "Hamas can spin the story and deny the evidence, but *hundreds of rockets rained down on civilian areas in Israel where no military installations were located," *said Joe Stork, deputy Middle East director at Human Rights Watch.  "*Hamas leaders at the time indicated they were intending to harm civilians."*
> 
> ...



That is not using civilian children as human shields, which is what the UN confirms Israel does and is addressed in the OP. Israel makes a regular practice of using civilian Palestinian children as human shields.


----------



## MHunterB (Jun 22, 2013)

"Israel makes a regular practice of using civilian Palestinian children as human shields."

This is a completely unwarranted assertion.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 22, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> "Israel makes a regular practice of using civilian Palestinian children as human shields."
> 
> This is a completely unwarranted assertion.



It is what the UN Report and reports of human rights groups tell us. And I posted a link to the UN Report being addressed in the OP. I will start addressing more specific findings in that 21 page report later today.


----------



## Sweet_Caroline (Jun 22, 2013)

I am positive I posted these before, but perhaps SM didn't view them, so here again are the human shields that Hamas use.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70Oqo_wmuGo]Hamas Exploitation of Civilians as Human Shields - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WssrKJ3Iqcw]BBC: Former British Army Colonel Richard Kemp Discusses IDF Gaza Ops - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## MHunterB (Jun 22, 2013)

From OP's link:

It voiced deep concern at the "continuous use of Palestinian children as human shields and informants", saying 14 such cases had been reported between January 2010 and March 2013 alone.

So, 14 incidents over a 3-year period were reported, that includes both 'human shields' and 'informants'.  And that's being described as 'continuous'........

Yet the *training of young children to be bombers*  - a practice which HAMAS *publically acknowledges* - somehow escapes the knowledge of OP and others.

I despair of finding a single individual able to objectively evaluate any aspect of this situation.


----------



## Coyote (Jun 22, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> From OP's link:
> 
> It voiced deep concern at the "continuous use of Palestinian children as human shields and informants", saying 14 such cases had been reported between January 2010 and March 2013 alone.
> 
> ...



That particular report dealt with Israel.  14 instances is more than enough.  Rather than addressing them - everyone is crying unfair.

There have been other UN reports on Hamas and their actions using children, including reports that exonerate Israel when Israel is unfairly blamed.  Hamas is roundly condemned for using civilians.  *I don't see anyone denying it, insisting on "objective evaluation" of it either.*  Two different standards.


----------



## Coyote (Jun 22, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > HistoryBefore67 said:
> ...



Read your own quote.



> So you thing the definition of "objective" is subjective?



It is when it comes to matters like these.  What's an "objective" source depends entirely on the viewpoint of the person.  It's not like math or science where it is black and white.  What would you consider objective in regards to IP?



> You don't offer sources.  You offer reports of accusations.  Those accusations are unproven, so there is no reason for me or anyone else to respond to them.  You don't seem to understand the difference between an "allegation" and a "fact."



One was an example given was of an "accusation" that was settled in court and the offender punished.  That is not "unproven".  It's not me that lacks understanding, it's you that lacks the ability back up your claims while insisting others do so.  You go on and on about sources being false - well back it up.  Address the points. 



> I totally agree - Israel is far more careful, and more conscientous of civilians then any of it's opponents.



Then why not spend your time trying to fight against the source of the violence - i.e. the "Palestinians" (mostly in Gaza). 
[/quote]

Because the root causes of the violence comes from actions by both sides.



> No, I have not demanded sources and proof, because you clearly don't know what those terms mean.  These discussions are about you raising "strawman" arguments and then demanding that I DISPROVE them.



What strawman arguments?  Do you mean the strawman argument you raised when I was talking about WP and you were implying that my condemnation of that was a condemnation of Israel's defending itself by any means?  



> Its not my job to disprove every claim the "Palestinians" fabricate.



pfffft!   Translation: you can't back up your claims and expect others to do your research for you.


----------



## Coyote (Jun 22, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Hamas does not use civilians as human shields. As addressed in the You Tube video over 300 human rights groups written  reports about Cast Lead have found no evidence Hamas used children as human shields. But Israel did.



Hamas DOES use human shields, that is pretty well documented.  If you are launching rockets out of schools that is most certainly using human shields.


----------



## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 23, 2013)

This is a typical debate...

The Arabs clearly have a policy and practice of inhumane conduct grounded on barbaric concepts of martyrdom.

Israel is accused, with highly questionable evidence, of a handful of acts of misconduct by individuals acting without authority.

Pro-Palestinians: "See, Israel is just as bad, if not worse, than the Palestinians."

What a bunch of dishonest bigots you are.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 23, 2013)

So, if I've got this right, you folks are talking about fourteen (14) incidents involving the Israeli use of Palestinian minors, spread across three (3) years, and those fourteen incidents are divided between (a) using those minors as Informants and (b) using them as shields?

I assume that we have Incident Type-Counts for both? 7 informant, 7 shield? Some other ratio?

I'm going to have to give the 'Informant' side of that a bit more Thinking Time before I arrive at a personal opinion about that one way or the other.

I CAN say that I believe that the use of kids as Human Shields is just plain wrong.

Using a teenager on top of a vehicle hood, to convince his mates not to throw rocks at the Israelis, is just wrong, although I can understand the mentality that decided to utilize the youth in that way.

Of that subset of the fourteen ( 7 incidents? some other? ) which involves Human Shield activity rather than Informant Use, I wonder how many of those incidents were mere rock-throwing prevention, and therefore a much more lightweight category of Human Shield usage?

Now, strapping a teenager to the hood of a car or pushing them out in front of you to avoid small-arms fire is an entirely different matter - something that I find despicable and which smacks of personal cowardice or hatred or disdain for young human life.

Within that subset of the 14 which deals with Human Shields rather than Informant Use (7? other?), I wonder how many involved the use of such youth, to avoid small arms fire?

1? 2? 3? Zero?

Each and every such incident is an offense against Humanity and those who engaged in it should be prosecuted and - if convicted - censured.

Very un-cool... but hardly a matter of Established Policy and Practice, as some would have us believe.

And, as a related aside, as long as we are comparing things...

A handful of instances of Israelis wrongfully using a Palestinian youth as a Human Shield, pales by comparison, to the everyday Palestinian practice of utilizing entire Palestinian civilian neighborhoods as Human Shields, in connection with their rocket-launching sites and bases and safe-houses and the like.

If one were to quantify such offenses, based upon the above analysis (and assuming that there is some merit to such conclusions)...

The offenses of the IDF re: Human Shields would be the thickness of a piece of paper...

The offenses of the Palestinians re: Human Shields would be the height of the Empire State Building...

The Palestinians are clearly the masters in the use of Human Shields...

With their own women and children and old folks, no less...

So, when I hear a Palestinian or Sympathizer or Apologist denouncing the IDF for the use of Human Shields, the first words out of my mouth are: "_Pffffttt_ !!!... look who's talking!"


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## Coyote (Jun 23, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> So, if I've got this right, you folks are talking about fourteen (14) incidents involving the Israeli use of Palestinian minors, spread across three (3) years, and those fourteen incidents are divided between (a) using those minors as Informants and (b) using them as shields?
> 
> I assume that we have Incident Type-Counts for both? 7 informant, 7 shield? Some other ratio?
> 
> ...



They should both be denounced - whether it's the Palestinians or the IDF.

Instead of excusing it.

*No one is saying the IDF is as bad as Hamas.* - that's a strawman argument.  But excusing that behavior or ignoring it, rather than condemning and seeking to end it, is (to use the words of another poster here) the acts of dishonest bigots .


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## Kondor3 (Jun 23, 2013)

Coyote said:


> "...They should both be denounced - whether it's the Palestinians or the IDF. Instead of excusing it..."


We are in complete agreement on this.

The main concerns for many folk (myself included) are likely to be..

1. getting a good handle (counts, details) on the number of Human Shield incidents being alleged

2. discounting rocks thrown by Side B against Side A, when Side B engages in even more of it, by several orders of magnitude

3. ensuring that censure is applied to _both_ sides, in _proportion_ to their culpability or the number of people that they jeapordize

When we have credible data on actual Human Shield incidents by the IDF (not mixing them in with Informant Use incidents)...

And when we have separated Rock-Shields from Bullet-Shields (injury-baiting versus death-baiting, a matter of the degree of seriousness) then I believe it will be safe to throw rocks at the IDF for any incidents that survive that vetting process.

Hell, I'll stand alongside you and *JOIN-IN* on the rock throwing against the IDF, under circumstances where they're using Human Shields (_women, children and teens, especially_) to ward-off Bullets.

None of this is 'defending' the IDF in such a context.

None of this is even attempting to muddy the waters or to delay the process.

This is simply trying to filter-out the pro-Palestinian Bull$hit and other biases (_from the Palestinians, and Palestinian-sympathetic NGO's_) before examining what's left, after a more objective screening is undertaken.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 23, 2013)

Coyote said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > Hamas does not use civilians as human shields. As addressed in the You Tube video over 300 human rights groups written  reports about Cast Lead have found no evidence Hamas used children as human shields. But Israel did.
> ...



No, they do not. Not documented, Amnesty found no evidence it happened In ttheir investigstion of Cast Lead. I renounce Zionist Hasbara.


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## toastman (Jun 23, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
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Firing from civlian areas IS using human shields. Stop lying, you're not fooling anyone.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 23, 2013)

Definition of human shieldsThe prohibition of using human shields in the Geneva Conventions, Additional Protocol I and the Statute of the International Criminal Court are couched in terms of using the presence (or movements) of civilians or other protected persons to render certain points or areas (or military forces) immune from military operations.[18]* Most examples given in military manuals, or which have been the object of condemnations, have been cases where persons were actually taken to military objectives in order to shield those objectives from attacks. The military manuals of New Zealand and the United Kingdom give as examples the placing of persons in or next to ammunition trains.[19]* There were many condemnations of the threat by Iraq to round up and place prisoners of war and civilians in strategic sites and around military defence points.[20]* Other condemnations on the basis of this prohibition related to rounding up civilians and putting them in front of military units in the conflicts in the former Yugoslavia and Liberia.[21]*In the Review of the Indictments in the*Karadi&#263; and Mladi&#263; case, the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia qualified physically securing or otherwise holding peacekeeping forces against their will at potential NATO air targets, including ammunition bunkers, a radar site and a communications centre, as using human shields.[22]*It can be concluded that the use of human shields requires an intentional co-location of military objectives and civilians or persons*hors de combat*with the specific intent of trying to prevent the targeting of those military objectives.    Customary IHL - Rule 97. Human Shields


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 23, 2013)

"Amnesty found that Israeli air strikes targeted civilians; dropped white phosphorus bombs, an incendiary, imprecise weapon that creates smoke walls to facilitate troop movements, but that also cascades over large areas and sears into human flesh through muscle, causing atrocious injuries and death; and used Palestinian civilians as human shields.Israeli forces," Amnesty's report found, "repeatedly took over Palestinian homes in the Gaza Strip forcing families to stay in a ground-floor room while they used the rest of their house as a military base and sniper position &#8211; effectively using the families, both adults and children, as &#8220;human shields&#8221; and putting them at risk. While soldiers wore protective body armour and helmets and shielded themselves behind sandbags as they fired from the houses, the Palestinian inhabitants of the houses had no such protection."Israel denied the claims of targeting civilians or using them as human shields. But today in Israel, the group called*Breaking the Silence, an organization that collects testimonies and oral histories by Israeli soldiers of the Israeli occupation of the West bank and the Gaza Strip, released*54 testimonies*by some 26 Israeli soldiers who participated in the Gaza war ("Operation cast Lead," in Israeli military parlance), including confirmation of the use of Palestinian civilians as human shields."     Israel's Human Shields in Gaza: Palestinian "Johnnies"


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 23, 2013)

Amnesty accuses Israel of using human shields in GazaBy Leigh Baldwin (AFP) &#8211;*Jul 1, 2009**JERUSALEM (AFP) &#8212; Amnesty International on Thursday accused Israeli forces of war crimes, saying they used children as human shields and conducted wanton attacks on civilians during their offensive in the Gaza Strip.The London-based human rights group also accused Hamas of war crimes, but said it found no evidence that the Islamist rulers of Gaza used civilians as human shields during the 22-day offensive Israel launched on December 28.    AFP: Amnesty accuses Israel of using human shields in Gaza


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## Kondor3 (Jun 23, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> "..._It can be concluded that the use of human shields requires an intentional co-location of military objectives and civilians or persons*hors de combat*with the specific intent of trying to prevent the targeting of those military objectives_..."


Indeed.

And the actions of Hamas and Hezbollah, hiding rocket-launchers and other military assets within their own civilian population, meet this definition _precisely_...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmgrZxcYg7M]Palestinian Terrorist Groups Launch Rockets At Israel From Populated Areas - YouTube[/ame]

Good catch...

Cowards, hiding behind their womens' skirts...

So when do we begin prosecuting Hamas and Hezbollah leadership for such war-crimes, under the auspices of the ICC?


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 23, 2013)

22 November 2010] &#8211; One day after an Israeli military court imposed a suspended sentence on two Givati Brigade soldiers for using a nine-year-old boy as a human shield in Gaza, DCI-Palestine has just obtained an affidavit from a 13-year-old boy who reports being used as a human shield on 19 August 2010. This brings to three, the number of human shield cases documented by DCI-Palestine in 2010.The practice of using human shields involves forcing civilians to directly assist in military operations or using them to shield an area or troops from attack. Both of these circumstances expose civilians to physical, and sometimes, mortal danger. Civilians are usually threatened and/or physically coerced into performing these tasks, most of the time at gunpoint. The practice is illegal under both international and Israeli domestic law.In the latest case documented by DCI-Palestine, a 13-year-old boy from a village near Nablus, in the occupied West Bank, was beaten and then forced at gunpoint to search and open doors in a house where the army suspected a wanted person might be hiding &#8211;*Nazzal A. &#8211; Voices From The Occupation.Since April 2004, DCI-Palestine has documented 16 cases involving Palestinian children being used as human shields by the Israeli army. Fifteen of the 16 cases, occurred after the Israeli High Court of Justice ruled the practice to be illegal in October 2005, suggesting that the army is not effectively implementing the Court's decision, or simply disregarding the Court&#8217;s order altogether.   DCI/PS - Israeli army still using children as human shields in 2010


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 23, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > "..._It can be concluded that the use of human shields requires an intentional co-location of military objectives and civilians or persons*hors de combat*with the specific intent of trying to prevent the targeting of those military objectives_..."
> ...



No, that is not using civilians as human shields.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 23, 2013)

Palestinian teen describes being used as a human shield by Israeli forces in Abu Dis

Yanking him by the collar and shoving him in the neck, the armed Israeli soldiers proudly paraded the handcuffed teen up and down the street, making a public spectacle of him in the occupied West Bank town of Abu Dis.Armed with live ammunition, steal-coated rubber bullets and tear gas, on Friday, April 19, at least 10 Israeli soldiers confronted the crowd of protesters using 17-year-old Muhammad Rabea as a human shield. They forced him to walk at gunpoint with his hands raised in the air as they approached the protesters.Muhammad told Defense for Children International Palestine (DCI-Palestine) that he recalls inhaling the caustic smell of the tear gas, hearing the piercing sound of gunfire, and feeling the heat of the shell casings brush past his stomach as the soldier to his left opened fire at the crowd with live ammunition.   Palestinian teen describes being used as a human shield by Israeli forces in Abu Dis | Mondoweiss


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## Kondor3 (Jun 23, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...


*Wrong again.*

*Spectacularly* wrong.

But that doesn't seem to stop you.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 23, 2013)

Since April 2004, DCI-Palestine has documented 20 cases involving Palestinian children being used as human shields by Israel. 1. M.B.15 Apr 0413Tied to the bonnet of a military jeep for four hours during clashes.2S.T.2 May 0616Forced to walk in front of soldiers and enter a house in search of combatants.3A.E26 Feb 0715Forced at gunpoint to walk in front of soldiers during clashes.4J.D.28 Feb 0711Forced at gunpoint to walk in front of soldiers and enter an abandoned house in search of combatants.5I.M.11 Apr 0714Forced to sit for 15 minutes on the bonnet of a jeep during clashes.6O.G.11 Apr 0715Forced to sit for 10 minutes on the bonnet of a jeep during clashes.7R.N.11 Jul 0714Wounded whilst being forced to evacuate a house.8A.S.4 Jan 0914Detained for 10 days and forced to search houses during war in Gaza.9A.A.5 Jan 0915Detained close to military operations for four days during war in Gaza.10A.A.5 Jan 0916Detained close to military operations for four days during war in Gaza.11N.A.5 Jan 0917Detained close to military operations for four days during war in Gaza.12K.A.5 Jan 0915Detained close to military operations for four days during war in Gaza.13H.A.5 Jan 0912Detained close to military operations for four days during war in Gaza.14M.R.15 Jan 099Forced at gunpoint to search bags thought to contain explosives during war in Gaza.15D.A.18 Feb 1016Forced at gunpoint to search for a weapon.16S.A.16 Apr 1014Forced at gunpoint to walk in front of soldiers during clashes.17N.A.19 Aug 1013Forced at gunpoint to walk in front of soldiers and enter a house in search of combatants.18M.H.21 Feb 1215Forced to shield soldiers from stone-throwing.19M.M.21 Feb 1216Forced to shield soldiers from stone-throwing.20M.W.17 Feb 139Forced at gunpoint to walk in front of soldiers during clashes.  Human Shields | Defence for Children International Palestine


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## MHunterB (Jun 23, 2013)

Sherri, don't you understand that no matter what Israeli troops may do, *there is no excuse for HAMAS firing rockets *indiscriminately* into Israel?  And no excuse for firing those rockets from on top of broadcast buildings, or schools, or mosques, etc.?*

The last time I checked, no sane person had ever accused 'AI' or 'HRW of disseminating 'Zionist hasbara' in their reports.

When a person makes the ridiculous and blatantly false statements which you have. the announce that their opinions are not based on reality.  

I cannot imagine what could impel anyone to lie to defend HAMAS' war crimes and crimes against humanity the way that sherri just has.


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## MHunterB (Jun 23, 2013)

"Definition of human shieldsThe prohibition of using human shields in the Geneva Conventions, Additional Protocol I and the Statute of the International Criminal Court are couched in terms of using the presence (or movements) of civilians or other protected persons to render certain points or areas (or military forces) immune from military operations."

This is from the post by sherri earlier and supports what I posted, that HAMAS has indeed used human shields, according to the GC definition - by launching rockets into Israel from schoolyard, the roof of a broadcast office building, apartment blocks, etc, etc.


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## Hyrcanus (Jun 23, 2013)

Both Israel and Hamas have committed war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Both sides must face justice for their crimes.


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## MHunterB (Jun 23, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> Both Israel and Hamas have committed war crimes and crimes against humanity.
> 
> Both sides must face justice for their crimes.



On that I will agree with you.  Some posters here, however, seem to imagine that *only* Israel has ever been guilty of wrong-doing.


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## Coyote (Jun 23, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



Cast Lead is not the only conflict.

Aside from that - Hamas has launched rockets from school buildings.  Is that not using human shields?

I agree, it's not as direct as making a child examine bags for possible IED's but it is essentially the same thing - using a school because opponents are less likely to fire back on a school full of children.


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## Coyote (Jun 23, 2013)

toastman said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...





What if they are in an area where it's all civilian areas?  Gaza is densly populated.


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## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 23, 2013)

Who are any of you to judge Israel?

When any of you live in a place where your neighbors openly call for your destruction, send terrorists to your country, and fire rockets at you, then you can talk.

Until then, you can all take your internet "research" and your condemnations and stick them where the sun doesn't shine.


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## Coyote (Jun 23, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> Who are any of you to judge Israel?
> 
> When any of you live in a place where your neighbors openly call for your destruction, send terrorists to your country, and fire rockets at you, then you can talk.
> 
> Until then, you can all take your internet "research" and your condemnations and stick them where the sun doesn't shine.



This is an internet discussion board.

If you don't want to discuss issues related to IP, fine but please allow the rest of us to.


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## Coyote (Jun 23, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> Hyrcanus said:
> 
> 
> > Both Israel and Hamas have committed war crimes and crimes against humanity.
> ...



And vice versa.


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## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 23, 2013)

Coyote said:


> HistoryBefore67 said:
> 
> 
> > Who are any of you to judge Israel?
> ...



I am addressing the issue by pointing out that Israel is not obligated to justify its actions to the satisfaction of internet bloggers, bogus "human rights" organizations, or biased UN committees.  They answer to their own people and their collective conscience, which is exemplary regardless of the disparaging opinions of random internet nobodies.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 23, 2013)

Coyote said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



No rockets launched from school buildings , at least not when children were present. You need people there to unlawfully be using them as shields. That claim that rockets were launched from UN schools during CL was false.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 23, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > HistoryBefore67 said:
> ...



They are bound by intl law too..


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## Hossfly (Jun 23, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cG9E5ZvpnUs&feature=youtube_gdata_player HRW video addressing Israels use of WP.


I guess with Frau Sherri constantly bringing up something which happened in the past, it is a way for her to try to keep our minds off what her friends are doing these days.   Approximately 100,000 people have perished in this Syrian Civil War and God only knows how many are injured, but to this Frau Sherri doesn't even blink because the Jews are not involved


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## Coyote (Jun 23, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > HistoryBefore67 said:
> ...




We're all internet nobodies. 

Are the Palestinians oblicaged to justify their actions to you?  Yet you condemn those actions.


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## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 23, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> HistoryBefore67 said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Not your twisted version, they're not.

Truth is, international law is most often invoked by hypocrites, such as yourself and your beloved "Palestinians."


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 23, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> Sherri, don't you understand that no matter what Israeli troops may do, *there is no excuse for HAMAS firing rockets *indiscriminately* into Israel?  And no excuse for firing those rockets from on top of broadcast buildings, or schools, or mosques, etc.?*
> 
> The last time I checked, no sane person had ever accused 'AI' or 'HRW of disseminating 'Zionist hasbara' in their reports.
> 
> ...



What I addressed in my post was the use of civilians, that includes children,  as human shields. ISRAEL commits this war crime. HAMAS does not. I made no false sratements. LAUNCHING rockets is not using Palestinians as human shields.


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## Hossfly (Jun 23, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnNKwiCtK_o&feature=youtube_gdata_player Professor Norman FInklestein speaks about the Gaza Cast Lead massacre and Israels unlawful use of WP.


Could you ask poor Normie if he could spend a little time on what your friends are doing to innocent others in the Muslim world and then he might be a little more believable.  One thing Normie is lucky about -- is that he is still living in his parents' rent-controlled apartment in New York.  Isn't it strange that Frau Sherri and friends call it a massacre when 1400 people (many of whom were militants) died in Cast Iron, but when their Muslim friends have murdered millions, like the 2,000,000 Christians in the Sudan or the 3,000,000 (mainly Hindus) in Bangladesh, it doesn't seem to get on their radar screen.


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## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 23, 2013)

Coyote said:


> HistoryBefore67 said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Yeah... I'm going out on a real limb when I condemn them for murdering civilians (including their own), teaching children to be terrorists, and advocating the destruction of Israel.  

The difference is, unlike you, I do have a direct connection to these issues.


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## Coyote (Jun 23, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > HistoryBefore67 said:
> ...



There is no requirement that one has to have a "direct connection" to the issues to discuss them or have an opinion nor does the "direct connection" make a person's opinion any more valid, it just makes for a double standard.


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## Hossfly (Jun 23, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> The human rights groups reporrts tell us all about the Truth of Israels continuing crimes against children in Palestine.


Same old, same old from Frau Sherri, when kids in the Israeli jails get a chance to study in peace and quiet which they can't do in their own homes with other kids around.  Of course, Frau Sherri will never tell us of all the abuses and torture of kids in Muslim countries because no Jews are involved.  Instead of giving us the same stuff ad nauseam, how about giving us some good human interest stories to show us that the Palestinians are just like the rest of the world when it comes to these T.V. talent shows?

Palestinians sure this year's 'Arab Idol' is one of their own - latimes.com


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## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 23, 2013)

Coyote said:


> HistoryBefore67 said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Oh give it a rest, Peyote. * XXXXXXX  *

Go take a trip to Israel and learn something.  You're not going to gain any insight from reading Wikipedia and watching YouTube.


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## holston (Jun 24, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> Who are any of you to judge Israel?



 And who is Israel to dictate to the US. The people didn't elect the Jewish lobby to represent them. 

 Admittedly their representatives yield to bribes and cow tow to threats imposed by that lobby, but that's where WE need to clean house. 


HistoryBefore67 said:


> When any of you live in a place where your neighbors openly call for your destruction, send terrorists to your country, and fire rockets at you, then you can talk.


 
 It is evident that Israeli operatives and their helpers in the US facilitated the attack of 9/11 in order to rouse the US to fight Israel's battles and "secure the realm". 

 That's all I need to know about Israel. 




> Until then, you can all take your internet "research" and your condemnations and stick them where the sun doesn't shine.



 And you can do likewise. 

 I shall do all I can to expose the Jewish lobby and the Israeli war mongers for what they are. I for one am sick of bending over backwards trying to placate and accommodate you people. Your attitude only reenforces my convictions. 
  Others may enjoy living in a Jewish plutocracy, but I for one intend to buck it for all it's worth.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Jun 24, 2013)

There is plenty of proof that not only does Hamas fire from schools and mosques but they are proud to do so.  I can prove it - just ask.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 24, 2013)

All of us do not buy into that ZioNazi Hasbara Propaganda!  You can keep it, I reject it. When civilians are used as human shields unlawfully, human rights groups document it. And back to CL, Amnesty and HRW and the Goldstone Commission documented civilians and children being used as human shields by Israel. They found no evidence Hamas  used civilians as human shields.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Jun 24, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> All of us do not buy into that ZioNazi Hasbara Propaganda!  You can keep it, I reject it. When civilians are used as human shields unlawfully, human rights groups document it. And back to CL, Amnesty and HRW and the Goldstone Commission documented civilians and children being used as human shields by Israel. They found no evidence Hamas  used civilians as human shields.



BS.  Everyone knows Hamas uses human shields.  It has been proved over and over again not only on this forum but in the news.  Your hate of Israel is blinding your views.  By you denying that Hamas uses human shields makes you appear that not only do you not have a clue about the situation, but shows the hate inbuilt in you.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 24, 2013)

Repeating the same lie over and over and over does not make it true.  Amnesty investigaated the claims of the use of human shields by Israel and Hamas. They uncovered multiple incidents of Israel using civilians as human shields. They found no evidence Hamas did it.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Jun 24, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Repeating the same lie over and over and over does not make it true.  Amnesty investigation the claims of the use of human shields by Israel and Hamas. They incovered multiple incidents of Israel using civilians as human shields. They found no evidence Hamas did it.



Everyone has found evidence Hamas use human shields.  If you deny these, then seriously I will believe you are simply a Jew-hating troll.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEUgUtGAmrY]Israel : Gaza Hamas Interior Minister Proudly Admits To Using Human Shields in 2008 (Nov 23, 2012) - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70Oqo_wmuGo]Hamas Exploitation of Civilians as Human Shields - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WssrKJ3Iqcw]BBC: Former British Army Colonel Richard Kemp Discusses IDF Gaza Ops - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Sow8R9uZ_4]Hamas uses UN/Red Cross Ambulance as terrorist transport - YouTube[/ame]


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## ForeverYoung436 (Jun 24, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > HistoryBefore67 said:
> ...



I agree.  Some people here have expressed the opinion that Arabs live as second-class citizens in Israel proper.  They should go and see for themselves.


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## MHunterB (Jun 24, 2013)

Coyote said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



Not ALL of Gaza is densely populated.  And the rockets are *indiscriminate* meaning it doesn't really matter from where they're launched.  They are obviously launched from well within Gaza - or there wouldn't have been Gazans killed by rockets when they fall short.


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## MHunterB (Jun 24, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> *Repeating the same lie over and over and over does not make it true.*  Amnesty investigation the claims of the use of human shields by Israel and Hamas. They incovered multiple incidents of Israel using civilians as human shields. They found no evidence Hamas did it.



Well, at least the bolded part is correct.  Continuing to pretend that Jesus lived in 'Palestine' is pretty rancid - so is presuming to lecture everyone that HAMAS never perpetrates war crimes.  

Especially when the poster itself has brought the definition of 'human shiedls' to the discussion - and it' been amply demonstrated that HAMAS' launching rockets form schoolyards, etc NOT during 'Cast Lead' constituted 'using human shields' under that definition.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 24, 2013)

Four Palestinian children seized in Qalqilya by occupation soldiers

"*The Independent Middle East Media Centre reported that local sources in Azzoun village, east of the northern West Bank city of Qalqilia, have reported that dozens of Israeli soldiers invaded the village, on Sunday at dawn [June 23 2013], and kidnapped four children.The sources said that the army broke into several homes, and violently searched them, before kidnapping four children identified as Monther Salim, 14, Mahdi Ayman Majd, 15, Abdul-Karim Hussein, 16, and Maher Hasan Abu Tneina, 16.The kidnapped children have been cuffed and blindfolded, before the army took them to an unknown destination.In related news, soldiers stationed at the Container Roadblock, north of Bethlehem, kidnapped on Sunday evening, one Palestinian identified as Yousef Ahmad Abu Hashem, 19, from Beit Ummar town, north of the southern West Bank city of Hebron.Samidoun: Palestinian Prisoner Solidarity Network » Four Palestinian children seized in Qalqilya by occupation soldiers  "  The attacks on children by Israel continue.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 24, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > ]Repeating the same lie over and over and over does not make it true.[/B]  Amnesty investigation the claims of the use of human shields by Israel and Hamas. They incovered multiple incidents of Israel using civilians as human shields. They found no evidence Hamas did it.
> ...



The human rights groups investigated and found Hamas did not use civilians as human shields, during and after Cast Lead. And they identify Israels use of Palestinian civilians that include children as human shields. And Jesus did live and shows us who God is and He lived in Palestine. Jesus was a Palestinian Jew who lived in Palestine.


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## MHunterB (Jun 24, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Four Palestinian children seized in Qalqilya by occupation soldiers
> 
> "*The Independent Middle East Media Centre reported that local sources in Azzoun village, east of the northern West Bank city of Qalqilia, have reported that dozens of Israeli soldiers invaded the village, on Sunday at dawn [June 23 2013], and kidnapped four children.The sources said that the army broke into several homes, and violently searched them, before kidnapping four children identified as Monther Salim, 14, Mahdi Ayman Majd, 15, Abdul-Karim Hussein, 16, and Maher Hasan Abu Tneina, 16.The kidnapped children have been cuffed and blindfolded, before the army took them to an unknown destination.In related news, soldiers stationed at the Container Roadblock, north of Bethlehem, kidnapped on Sunday evening, one Palestinian identified as Yousef Ahmad Abu Hashem, 19, from Beit Ummar town, north of the southern West Bank city of Hebron.Samidoun: Palestinian Prisoner Solidarity Network » Four Palestinian children seized in Qalqilya by occupation soldiers  "  The attacks on children by Israel continue.




Who cares how the lying filth propagandists for terrorist HAMAS spin things and psychotic HAMAS whores spew the pigshit they post?  

No amount of posting 'trash talk' about the IDF can possibly change the fact that .......
HAMAS has indeed been found to have used 'human shields' under the GC definition.  It will also never change the fact HAMAS daily abuse children by continuing to shoot rockets *indiscriminately* into Israel - for the express purpose, as their own spokespersons have stated, of maiming and murdering civilian Israelis.

Anyone who persists in denying those war crimes and crimes against humanity which are DAILY committed by HAMAS is not telling the 'Truth' about this conflict.


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## MHunterB (Jun 24, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



Wow, lying to whitewash HAMAS' war crimes and crimes against humanity - how very low.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 24, 2013)

What I reject is ZioNazi Propaganda making claims that human rights groups do not confirm as true. The thread addresses a UN Report discussing  Israels use of children as human shields and other abuses against children by Israel. It does not address Hamas carrying out such acts because human rights groups have not made a finding Hamas engages in such acts


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 24, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > MHunterB said:
> ...



300 reports by human rights groups were written, addressed by Professor Norman Finklestein in a video I posted earlier, about CL after about 1 year. NONE found Hamas used civilians as human shields in Cast Lead. The following groups all made findings Israel used civilians and children as human shields and none made findings Hamas did, to include Amnesty and DCI Palestine and Btselem and HRW and the Goldstone Commission.


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## MHunterB (Jun 24, 2013)

Coyote said:


> HistoryBefore67 said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...




I don't think there's necessarily a 'double standard':  I think all the poster's trying to say is that SOME of us have family directly involved and DO have firsthand experience of facets of the situation.  Considering that all 'reporting' is indeed 'interpretation', and how often we are seeing bias in reporting from all manner of media - I think that 'direct experience' is indeed worth something.

EX:  There have been statements made on this site alleging that Israeli hospitals are 'segregated'/refuse to treat Palestinians.  Hadassah Hospital - which was specifically mentioned! - has no such policy nor practice.  And that fact is easily documented by a glance at the list of their staff members.

It's part of the professional standards in the field of historical study to use 'primary' sources over 'secondary' ones.  The HMO staff list is a 'primary' source:  my stating that it contains Palestinian and other Arab individuals in prominent  positions is a 'secondary' source.  And the other poster's assertion that HMO would refuse to treat someone because they were Palestinian is malignant fantasy.

THAT is where differentiating between someone who's quoting based on ideological dogma and someone who can give direct information is important.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 24, 2013)

I think some of what is addressed in the last post arguably makes certain posters biased. ANd there were reports that after Cast Lead, some of the injured were turned away from Hadassah Hospital. I posted about that earlier.


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## MHunterB (Jun 24, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



The 'reply' is patently false and irrelevant:  the discussion has been BROADER than CL, for one thing.  The GC definition of 'human shields' has been specified, and HAMAS' firing of rockets from schoolyards, etc,   does meet that definition.  

*HAMAS has indeed used civilian Palestinians as human shields.  HAMAS has committed war crimes and crimes against humanity by firing rockets into Israel *indiscriminately* - as described by HAMAS spokespersons! - with the intent to main and murder Israeli civilians*

To deny the truth of the bolded blue statements is renders every word one posts on the topic worthless HAMAS propaganda, verbal pigshit - and dirties the Palestinian flag.  Speaking of 'proud terrorist supporters'.........


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 24, 2013)

The human rights groups have documented Israel  uses civillians to include children  as human shields. And they document other abuses against children,  like using WP unlawfully, like unlawful detentions, like unlawful home demolitions, like torture.  And that is the topic of the thread, not unfounded allegations alleging the other side uses human shields of biased posters not supported by findings of human rights groups.


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## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 24, 2013)

holston said:


> It is evident that Israeli operatives and their helpers in the US facilitated the attack of 9/11 in order to rouse the US to fight Israel's battles and "secure the realm".
> 
> That's all I need to know about Israel.



Dude, clearly your tin foil hat is on too tight and you've smoked way too much of the grassy knoll.


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## Coyote (Jun 24, 2013)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> HistoryBefore67 said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



While Arabs in Israel likely live with more rights then they would have in surrounding countries there are well documented inequalities and denying it doesn't make it go away.  It's one of the reasons why it is so frustrating to debate with certain Pro-Israeli factions because they pretend Israel can't possibly do anything wrong.  I don't even claim that for my own country.  Inequities in settlement and expansion permits, land confiscation, education funding, water allocation and the justice system.  Sure there are Arab MP's - but pre-civil rights era US also had token black elected officials.


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## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 24, 2013)

Coyote said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > HistoryBefore67 said:
> ...



I don't think anyone believes that Israel is beyond criticism, but you can't simply brush aside comparisons to neighboring countries.  

Israel has one of the toughest tasks in the world: maintaing a civil society in the face of constant threats and security issues.  Mistakes are made along the way, but the moral compass remains true.


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## Coyote (Jun 24, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > HistoryBefore67 said:
> ...



I realize that, but consider this - having direct involvement *can also create a bias* and the only poster we had here from the Palestinian side was BiK - we lack a counter balance as BiK seldom posts.  Everything has it's own bias - but there is no reason to assume direct experience can somehow be worth more than more objective reporting - in fact, I think it's likely to be more subjective.  We're only human after all.



> EX:  There have been statements made on this site alleging that Israeli hospitals are 'segregated'/refuse to treat Palestinians.  Hadassah Hospital - which was specifically mentioned! - has no such policy nor practice.  And that fact is easily documented by a glance at the list of their staff members.



As you say - easily documented.  



> It's part of the professional standards in the field of historical study to use 'primary' sources over 'secondary' ones.  The HMO staff list is a 'primary' source:  my stating that it contains Palestinian and other Arab individuals in prominent  positions is a 'secondary' source.  And the other poster's assertion that HMO would refuse to treat someone because they were Palestinian is malignant fantasy.
> 
> THAT is where differentiating between someone who's quoting based on ideological dogma and someone who can give direct information is important.



If you can substantiate a claim, I have no problem with it - which is what I've tried to do with the human shield argument.  It is a case where the courts have outlawed it (but the IDF protested that decision) yet some units continue to engage in it.  Those with "direct experience" won't even consider that this is a flaw in IDF, it's just roundly denied nor excused as a few bad apples.  No one is saying Israel is worse than Hamas in the human rights department, Hamas lacks any credibility at this point in regards to an impartial justice system or appreciation of human rights.  That doesn't excuse Israel's use of human shields though and in particular a military culture that still deems it ok while simultaneously condemning Hamas' use of civilian centers to launch attacks.

Good post Marge - I always appreciate your thoughtful replies


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## Coyote (Jun 24, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > ForeverYoung436 said:
> ...



No, you can't - but it's dangerous when use a comparison to other countries as a means to justify continued abuses within your own.  That is my frustration with the argument.



> Israel has one of the toughest tasks in the world: maintaing a civil society in the face of constant threats and security issues.  *Mistakes are made along the way, but the moral compass remains true.*



I agree - overall, Israel's moral compass is a good one.  I think the bulk of Israeli society is true to it, but it has a small but politically strong group of extremists that would rather not open up discourse on the real injustices that do occur.  It's almost as if they think admitting it and addressing it would destroy Israel.  It's not much different than in the US, where a small but loud group considers any criticism of our country to be unpatriotic and you get labeled an "America hater".


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## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 24, 2013)

Coyote said:


> No, you can't - but it's dangerous when use a comparison to other countries as a means to justify continued abuses within your own.





> I agree - overall, Israel's moral compass is a good one.



Here is where I have an issue with your comments.  The term "abuses" implies deliberate actions.  Then you state that you agree that Israel's moral compass is a good one.  These seem to be inconsistent statements.

If you are merely stating that certain "abuses" occur on occasion by those acting outside of Israel's policy, then I won't disagree with you (though I believe that Israel's missteps are often magnified out of proportion by its detractors).  If you believe Israel's policies are "abusive," then I strongly disagree with you.


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## Indofred (Jun 24, 2013)

There was I, posting a thread about yet more war crimes committed by the Israeli government and IDf, expecting some calm debate on the subject but what is absent is condemnation.
We've had one attempt but that was qualified with miserable excuses about it may not have actually happened.
The same pro Israeli posters rant on about lack of Muslim condemnation of attacks.

What a pathetic bunch of two faced sods they turn out to be.

However, the fact is this; every group except the Israelis and their supporters agree, Israel is guilty of many war crimes.

Short of anything else, we know settlements are built on occupied lands against the letter of international law but Israel, the only country to do so, says that law is wrong and/or doesn't apply to that apartheid state.


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## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 24, 2013)

Indofred said:


> However, the fact is this; every group except the Israelis and their supporters agree, Israel is guilty of many war crimes.



Yeah... and the fact that there are about 1.6 billion Muslims in the world and less than 14 million Jews has NOTHING to do with the "World opinion" on these issues...


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## Hyrcanus (Jun 24, 2013)

Indofred said:


> There was I, posting a thread about yet more war crimes committed by the Israeli government and IDf, expecting some calm debate on the subject but what is absent is condemnation.
> We've had one attempt but that was qualified with miserable excuses about it may not have actually happened.
> The same pro Israeli posters rant on about lack of Muslim condemnation of attacks.
> 
> ...



We all understand that Israel wants special treatment.


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## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 24, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> > There was I, posting a thread about yet more war crimes committed by the Israeli government and IDf, expecting some calm debate on the subject but what is absent is condemnation.
> ...



Israel already receives special treatment.  They are scrutinized, criticized and condemned more than any country in the world.


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## Coyote (Jun 24, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > No, you can't - but it's dangerous when use a comparison to other countries as a means to justify continued abuses within your own.
> ...



I don't think they are inconsistent.

Some abuses are deliberate, some a result of a situation where a country is in conflict, some a result of unofficial policy.  

For example - the issuing of building permits and permits for expansion and infrastructure.  The inequities there are stark.  Official policy?  Unofficial policy?

Another example: the treatment of Palestinian children and Israeli children in the criminal justice system: access to parents, lawyers, etc.  A simple comparison would be how rock throwing Jewish children vs rock throwing Palestinian children are treated.  Official policy?  Unofficial policy?  A result of conflict?  All of the above?  Children are children and they aren't mature nor are their brains mature.  It's why they are treated very differently (or should be) in civilized societies.  

Another example:  crimes against Palestinians by Jewish settlers are seldom prosecuted or even seriously investigated.  Yet, crimes against Jewish settlers by Palestinians are aggressively pursued.  Why?  Likely, complex reasons: the political fall out of not pursuing crimes against Jews would be heavy.  There is none for not pursing crimes against Palestinians.  Another reason - the IDF meets with hostility and obstacles in trying to investigate within Palestinian villages which could make pursuing justice more difficult - better to let the Palestinians deal with it.  Another reason - they just plain don't like the Palestinians and see them as murdering barbarians intent on destroying Israel.  All of the above maybe.  Yet it creats an ongoing resentment and perception of injustice.

Where I don't see this as inconsistent with a moral compass as it doesn't necessarily reflect Israel's cultural values as a whole.  We, the US, has definate injustices - for example racial inequities in the death penalty and incarceration rates to give just one example or double standards when it comes to human rights abuses around the world - some get a free pass, others are condemned.  Does that mean though that overall our moral compass is rotten?  I don't think so - I think the majority of our country is generous, inclusive, diverse, and would fight to the death for a person's right to speak or worship freely and live as they wish.  I think we're a good society - not perfect by any means - but our compass is a good one.  I feel the same way with Israel.  But by the same token I feel it's not right to ignore the abuses - if I love my country, I want to change those things which I feel are wrong - I want my country to be true to the dream of it's founding.



> If you are merely stating that certain "abuses" occur on occasion by those acting outside of Israel's policy, then I won't disagree with you (though I believe that Israel's missteps are often magnified out of proportion by its detractors).  If you believe Israel's policies are "abusive," then I strongly disagree with you.



I think some of them occur on occassion by those acting outside Israel's policy - for example the issue of using human shields.  Israel's courts have made it clear what that policy is.  However - I think that the culture of the IDF deliberately chooses to ignore this behavior at least in certain brigades and this is obvious by the very light punishments given when it's made public.

I think other abuses are more deliberate - inequities of the permit systems.

I think some abuses are the result of conflict between settlers/Palestinians and trying to protect both sides from each other - seperate systems of transport and strict policies at religious sites.  In those cases - I understand the fine line Israel must walk at perserving peace and preventing violence on civilians on both sides.


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## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 24, 2013)

Coyote said:


> HistoryBefore67 said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



I have neither the time nor the inclination to address each distorted example you've provided (nor do I intend to return to the unfounded accusations regarding human shields).

The bottom line is that Israel's endgames are security and peace, while the "Palestinians'" endgames are conquest and elimination of the Jewish State.  As you believe otherwise, we really have nothing left to discuss.


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## Hyrcanus (Jun 24, 2013)

Israel demands a double standard.

They want to be able to do what no other country would be allowed to do.

And so far their wish has come true.


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## Indofred (Jun 24, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> Israel already receives special treatment.  They are scrutinized, criticized and condemned more than any country in the world.



Would that be because their government and armed forces are the biggest bastards in the world?


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## Kondor3 (Jun 24, 2013)

Coyote said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


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## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 24, 2013)

Indofred said:


> HistoryBefore67 said:
> 
> 
> > Israel already receives special treatment.  They are scrutinized, criticized and condemned more than any country in the world.
> ...



Please provide evidence establishing that they were all conceived out of wedlock.


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## Hyrcanus (Jun 24, 2013)

Indofred said:


> Would that be because their government and armed forces are the biggest bastards in the world?



they demand special treatment and get special treatment due to Holocaust guilt trips and donations from right-wing Israeli interests to American political campaigns.

and yeah, there are some right-wing Christians who think supporting Israel will bring Jesus back.


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## Kondor3 (Jun 24, 2013)

*Gaza Activist Stabbed After Exposing Hamas Use of Human Shields*

_UN Watch - January 17, 2013 - Geneva_

GENEVA, Jan. 17 - The stabbing in Gaza of a Palestinian rights activist after he exposed Hamas' contempt for its own people by using them as human shields, and after he criticized the radical Islamic group for torture, abuse and trampling free speech, should be strongly condemned by the United Nations&#8212;both as an attack on the victim&#8217;s human rights, and on the idea of freedom of expression.

Masked attackers on Friday stabbed *Mahmud Abu Rahma* multiple times in the back, leg and shoulders, it was revealed today.

This latest attack on a rights activist underscores Gaza's brutally enforced intolerance for any discourse other the anti-Israel mantras of Hamas, which rules the area with an iron fist.

The attack only proves the simple truth of the victim's words.

Abu Rahma's crime was publishing an article in the Palestinian press that dared to criticize Hamas' "outrageous attack upon free expression and peaceful assembly" over the past year, and the "hundreds of cases of torture and abuse."

Abu Rahma also dared to publish basic facts about Gaza that completely contradict the Hamas narrative, and that of the UN's Goldstone Report, which repeatedly found "no evidence" that Hamas used civilians as human shields.

What is remarkable is that with all of the massive UN resources ostensibly dedicated to protecting Palestinians... the world body somehow managed to turn a blind eye to the massive violations of Palestinian rights described by Abu Rahma:

&#8226; Although Abu Rahma considers Hamas, Islamic Jihad and other terrorist organizations to be &#8220;resistance groups,&#8221; he said they "show little or no care for people's life and well being.&#8221;

&#8226; &#8220;Military training sites function and are located in places very close to neighborhoods and/or schools, from where acts of resistance, including firing rockets, also occur.&#8221; As a result, &#8220;The population of these locations are inevitably vulnerable to Israeli attacks.&#8221;

...

&#8226; &#8220;The state of carelessness from the part of resistance is also causing continued victims of the misfiring of home-made rockets that fall on houses inside Gaza. Many of the victims are children and all of them are civilians who happen to be in their homes.&#8221;

&#8226; &#8220;There are more victims of shootings from, or explosions in, training sites. Many children are killed or maimed when explosive devices left in the streets or farms explode in their hands. And there is the young man who was shot in the legs for daring to publicly criticize a local resistance leader.&#8221;

*If the UN's colossal pro-Palestinian infrastructure would have truly done its job and reported the above simple facts about Hamas perfidy to the world's attention, it is fair to ask whether Abu Rahma would have been assaulted for writing his article.
*

The incident raises serious questions about the ability of the Palestinians to create a democratic state where people feel free to question their government without fear of being seriously injured or killed for doing so.

...

UN Briefing

=============================

So, there is some possibility that the UN turns a blind-eye towards Hamas, Hezbollah, etc., while going out of its way to castigate the Israelis?

If true, then, uhhhhh... yeah... _there's_ International Impartiality for ya.


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## Kondor3 (Jun 24, 2013)

*The gap between resistance and governance*

_By *Mahmoud Abu Rahma* - Ma'an News Agency (Palestine) - January 5, 2012_

...

On the contrary, we only see overwhelming efforts exerted to protect the violators of people's rights; be those torturers, teachers who abuse children, or doctors who act with utmost negligence. 

The government stands by them firmly and no one can get the reports, evidence, or public records that prove their innocence or wrongdoing. Nor do we hear of serious investigations seeking the truth.

Many citizens also fell victim of the continuous negligence of the resistance groups who show little or no care for people's life and well being, or, worse, fail to take responsibility for shocking acts by their members. 

Numerous people were injured from live fire coming from resistance groups training sites; including children and at least one man who lost his eye. 

Those are victims of the irresponsible behavior that seems to continue despite the frequent injuries. There is a training site in the town of Beit Lahiya that threatens people every day, including a girl who was injured inside her school when an explosion occurred in this site on Sep. 20 2011.

Explosions also occur frequently in densely-populated areas around Gaza and have their victims; many of whom are children. Shootings occur by mistake inside homes from weapons owned by the resistance. *Military training sites function and are located in places very close to neighborhoods and/or schools, from where acts of resistance; including firing rockets, also occur.* 

The population of these locations are inevitably vulnerable to Israeli attacks. Hundreds of people have been injured and killed and dozens of homes have been damaged from Israeli missile attacks. But little has been done to ease the pain of the loss of life or residence suffered by these people. 

On Dec. 9 2011, an Israeli attack on a training site killed a man and his 11-year-old son in al-Nasser neighborhood in Gaza city. His wife and four children were injured; one of the children is at an Israeli hospital suffering critical wounds. 

This man, whose house is near the training site, had complained to the resistance members many times. He explained the familys fear for their life and house. But he was told the family could move out of the area, even if they had no resources to move. He died the way he feared most: tragically.

The state of carelessness from the part of resistance is also causing continued victims of the misfiring of home-made rockets that fall on houses inside Gaza. Many of the victims are children and all of them are civilians who happen to be in their homes. 

...

The gap between resistance and governance | Maan News Agency

==============================

The article which got Mahmoud Abu Rahma by Palestinian Fascist thugs...

Published *BY* a Palestinian, in a Palestinian media outlet...

*Golly-gosh gee-willickers, Emmy Lou, I can't imagine WHY this fellow was attacked afterward*!


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## Kondor3 (Jun 24, 2013)

Indofred said:


> HistoryBefore67 said:
> 
> 
> > Israel already receives special treatment.  They are scrutinized, criticized and condemned more than any country in the world.
> ...








The rank-and-file of several militaries have adopted that mantra...

It's *GOOD* to be the biggest, badded MoFo in the Valley...

The more the Bad Guys piss their pants at the thought of going-up against such, the better...

Oh, if only the folks that *YOU* advocate for, could make that boast, eh?


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## Coyote (Jun 24, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > HistoryBefore67 said:
> ...



Interesting.  You have neither the time nor the inclination to put forward a rational discussion.  Each attempt to have a serious discussion with you leads to your presentation of an extreme rather than a discussion of points.  You are right - I see little value here in a discussion and an utter waste of time on my part to try to present an alternate point of view.  You are as extreme and intractable as those you denounce.

The bottom line is Israel's endgames are security and peace:  the majority want nothing more than that, yet a substantial minority want all of biblical Palestine and land aquisition and the removal of the Palestinians through settlement construction plays a part in it.

The bottom line is that the Palestinians are divided in what they want: according to public polls conducted in the region, the majority still want their own state in co-exhistence with Israel.  A minority want the destruction of Israel.  They are saddled with a corrupt and ineffective government that refuses to acknowledge Israel's right to exist and are not doing their people any favors.

Double standards seem to be all you are capable of.


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## Coyote (Jun 24, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> Hyrcanus said:
> 
> 
> > Indofred said:
> ...



Yet unlike any other country they have never had sanctions applied for their behavior.  They've gotten more free passes than any other country.  Look at the nuclear weapons for a start.


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## MHunterB (Jun 24, 2013)

Indofred said:


> There was I, posting a thread about yet more war crimes committed by the Israeli government and IDf, expecting some calm debate on the subject but what is absent is condemnation.
> We've had one attempt but that was qualified with miserable excuses about it may not have actually happened.
> The same pro Israeli posters rant on about lack of Muslim condemnation of attacks.
> 
> ...



Fred - know that I and some others have indeed posted condemnation, so your 'criticism' of myself and those others is baseless. 

OTOH, at least one poster on this thread has persistently denied that HAMAS has committed war crimes in its rocket attacks intended to maim and murder civilians.

Because your condemnation of that is absent:  I think we can guess just what I'd be suggesting you do with your charges of 'hypocrisy' and 'two-faced sod'........  

However, it seems you are having difficulty here, so I'll be more specific. You can take those epithets and apply them to your own self, which is where they belong.  And while you're at it, you may as well add 'liar'.


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## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 24, 2013)

If the "Palestinians" truly support a "two state solution" (as opposed to a "two state" stepping stone to the ultimate goal of an Arab state "from river to sea"), why do they elect people who openly call for Israel's destruction (i.e. Hamas in Gaza, PA officials who - when speaking in Arabic - call for the end of the Jewish State)?


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## Hyrcanus (Jun 24, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Yet unlike any other country they have never had sanctions applied for their behavior.  They've gotten more free passes than any other country.  Look at the nuclear weapons for a start.



Indeed.

Rather than using their nukes simply as a defensive measure, they instead use them to protect their Apartheid-like policies.

Israel would probably use their nukes to stop any country from preventing them from ethnically cleansing the West Bank of all "untermenschen".


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## Kondor3 (Jun 24, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Yet unlike any other country they have never had sanctions applied for their behavior.  They've gotten more free passes than any other country.  Look at the nuclear weapons for a start.
> ...


Please demonstrate for us how the Israeli nuclear arsenal has been utilized in pursuit of their policy of holding the Palestinians at arms' length due to valid security concerns.



> "..._Israel would probably use their nukes to stop any country from preventing them from ethnically cleansing the West Bank of all 'untermenschen'_".



Some of the worst hyperbole and amateur-caliber (failed) attempts to link Israeli aloofness to Nazi race theory that have graced these boards in quite some time.


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## toastman (Jun 24, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Yet unlike any other country they have never had sanctions applied for their behavior.  They've gotten more free passes than any other country.  Look at the nuclear weapons for a start.
> ...



Israels nukes are absolutely for defensive purposes. After plenty of Arab states called for their destruction (Many Arab leaders of Countries or terrorist groups still do so and always will) then Israel took initiative and acquired nukes. To think that they acquired them for any other purpose then defensive is just Arab propaganda mentality, which you seem to be suffering from


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## Hyrcanus (Jun 24, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> Some of the worst hyperbole and amateur-caliber (failed) attempts to link Israeli aloofness to Nazi race theory that have graced these boards in quite some time.



Sorry bro, but when folks in this forum call for all Gentiles in Israel to lose their citizenship, and all Palestinians to be kicked out of Israel or face death, comparisons to the Nazis will be made.


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## Kondor3 (Jun 24, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Some of the worst hyperbole and amateur-caliber (failed) attempts to link Israeli aloofness to Nazi race theory that have graced these boards in quite some time.
> ...


Who has called for that?


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## Kondor3 (Jun 24, 2013)

toastman said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Hyrcanus said:
> ...


Well, he does like to put words into peoples' mouths, during the course of an exchange - it's a permissible gambit in a debate but it's not a mark of all-around higher-caliber scholarship or intellectual display...


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## Coyote (Jun 24, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> If the "Palestinians" truly support a "two state solution" (as opposed to a "two state" stepping stone to the ultimate goal of an Arab state "from river to sea"), why do they elect people who openly call for Israel's destruction (i.e. Hamas in Gaza, PA officials who - when speaking in Arabic - call for the end of the Jewish State)?



From what I read about the election that brought Hamas into power it had little to do with Israel and much to do with the corruption and domestic ineffectiveness of the status quo.


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## Coyote (Jun 24, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Yet unlike any other country they have never had sanctions applied for their behavior.  They've gotten more free passes than any other country.  Look at the nuclear weapons for a start.
> ...



You seriously think that?

I doubt it very much.  When you're a small state surrounded by enemies - having nukes makes sense.  With the exception of North Korea (a country that truly acts like a rabid dog) - I don't think the intention of having nukes is to necessarily use then but to make a statement: "we are to be taken seriously"  No one wants to start a nuclear war.


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## toastman (Jun 24, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Hyrcanus said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Absolutely right Coyote. It's very typical of anti - Zionist posters to bring up Israels nuclear arsenal to make them look like the aggressor. It's usual a sign that they have their back to the wall. Israel is completely justified in having nukes,


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## Kondor3 (Jun 24, 2013)

Much less floating the idea that the Israelis want to nuke the West Bank to get rid of the Palestinians...


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## Hyrcanus (Jun 24, 2013)

toastman said:


> Israels nukes are absolutely for defensive purposes...



and to prevent the Arabs from defending their people.


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## toastman (Jun 24, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Israels nukes are absolutely for defensive purposes...
> ...



Wrong. ISraels nukes have not stopped the Arabs and Palestinians from attacking them. They had nukes in 1967. Stop lying


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## Kondor3 (Jun 24, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Israels nukes are absolutely for defensive purposes...
> ...


Yeah..

Like the Israelis needed nukes to kick the Arabs' asses in 1948...

Or 1967...

Or 1973...

Maybe if the Arabs had not attacked Israel so often, and with such overwhelming power, and sworn to drown the Jews in the Med (_and failing spectacularly as only those militarily incompetent clowns can_), the Arabs would not *NEED* to 'defend' their people...

The Israelis were making the foolish Arabs pee their pants *LONG* before they developed a nuclear arsenal...

Try again...


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## Coyote (Jun 24, 2013)

toastman said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Hyrcanus said:
> ...



I suspect every country that has them feels that way - India, Pakistan, Iran, Israel.  Probably NK but it's mad.

If one is justified though - who's to say the others aren't?

What worries me most is not "who" has it but how effectively a sane government can keep it out of the hands of stateless entities who have nothing to lose by using it.


----------



## toastman (Jun 24, 2013)

Coyote said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Considering Israels size and their location, combined with the fact that they've been attacked plenty of time by surrounding Arab nations with the goal of "driving the Jews to the sea", I would say Israel is very much justified in having a nuclear arsenal. Of course, that's just my opinion , but I'm pretty sure any rational person who is familiar with Israel's history would agree with me .


----------



## Coyote (Jun 24, 2013)

*Off topic/trolling posts have been removed (7) - please take it to Flame Zone or Badlands rather than derailing this thread.  Thx *


----------



## Indofred (Jun 25, 2013)

toastman said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



But you neglect to consider; they're surrounded by hostile Arab nations because they chose to invade that bit of land.
There hasn't been a Jewish state there for 2,000 years so what gives them the right to take it over now?


----------



## Sweet_Caroline (Jun 25, 2013)

Indofred said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



How long would you have had them wait then?


----------



## Indofred (Jun 25, 2013)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



Until hell froze over.
The very idea of a state that displaced the local population and worked on bigoted/racist principles was always going to lead to massive problems.

However, much as I don't believe the terrorists should have won the day; they did so we're stuck with violence until they either have a dramatic policy change or there's an  equally massive war and we see the death of the stupid experiment.

I can't say I'm looking forward to that day because of the terrible of of a war, regardless of who wins the thing.
However; whatever the cause of the conflict; the Zionist extremists will be responsible for the deaths of millions of Jews because of their stupidity.

I wonder how the pro Israeli Americans would feel if the Zionists had set up home in California. I suspect there'd be a lot less support of Calisrael and a lot of support for David Duke.


----------



## toastman (Jun 25, 2013)

Indofred said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Invade? That's a lie. Zionist immigration was encouraged and facilitated by the British who were in charge. Sorry to say, but the Palestinian Arabs were not in charge


----------



## Hyrcanus (Jun 25, 2013)

toastman said:


> Invade? That's a lie. Zionist immigration was encouraged and facilitated by the British who were in charge. Sorry to say, but the Palestinian Arabs were not in charge



Yes, but only as long as the rights of Gentiles in Palestine were protected and respected.

Israel has clearly violated that agreemant.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 25, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Invade? That's a lie. Zionist immigration was encouraged and facilitated by the British who were in charge. Sorry to say, but the Palestinian Arabs were not in charge
> ...


Then perhaps the Palestinians and their Muslim-Arab brethren should not have tried to drive them into the Mediterranean beginning on Day One of the State of Israel's existence.

Had the Arabs remained in their homes (_and only a minority were driven-out by over-eager Israeli militias, the vast majority were driven out by blind fear stoked by their Arab neighbors and by promises of an Arab victory and return, within a matter of days or weeks_) and accepted Jewish governance of the original lands claimed by Israel, rather than joining with their incompetent and under-performing militant Arab neighbors in an attempt to kill the Jews, the Israelis would never have found it necessary - from a survival standpoint - to being 'disrespecting' the rights of Arab-Palestinians in the first place.

I'll bet they wish they had a Do-Over now, 65 years later, eh?


----------



## toastman (Jun 25, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> Hyrcanus said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



I'm sure Abbas does

Abbas: Arabs erred in rejecting 1947 partition plan | JPost | Israel News


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 25, 2013)

And now the Palestinians are paying the price for their foolishness, both in rejecting the Partition Plan, and for believing their incompetent, under-performing Arab neighbors, who promised the refugees swift victory and return.

Next Steps...

Look for the carving-up of Lebanon (especially now that Syria is going downhill) and the establishment of a New Palestine in the southern part of that most unhappy land.

Hezbollah is already paving the way.

Once New Palestine is established, look for West Bank-ers and Gazans to fall all over themselves, scrambling to get there.


----------



## Hyrcanus (Jun 25, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> ...Once New Palestine is established, look for West Bank-ers and Gazans to fall all over themselves, scrambling to get there.



The Palestinian people would never willingly abandon their land.

You'll have to kill them all if you want to get rid of them.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 25, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> "..._The Palestinian people would never willingly abandon their land_..."


And you know this *HOW*?

Let's see:

Options:

1. remain in ever-shrinking ghettoes (West Bank, Gaza) with no future for your family, and condemn your children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren to great misery.

2. move nearby, subsidized by others; new homes, compensation money, jobs, cars, land, a country of your own, and a future; and they can even stay together as a 'people'.

Only the clinically insane will choose (1).

The End-Game will rely far more upon Seduction than it will Force.

And, because everybody wins, Seduction will prove to be the winning formula.


----------



## Hyrcanus (Jun 25, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> And you know this *HOW*?
> 
> Let's see:
> 
> ...



Sorry, but if the Israelis want to solve the "Palestinian Question", they will have to kill them all.  They ain't going anywhere.


----------



## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 25, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry, but if the Israelis want to solve the "Palestinian Question", they will have to kill them all.  They ain't going anywhere.
> ...


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 25, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> "..._Sorry, but if the Israelis want to solve the 'Palestinian Question', they will have to kill them all. They ain't going anywhere._"


You have yet to answer the question: "You know this *HOW*?"

Why should we take your word for that?

What particular credentials do you bring to the table in speaking for the Palestinians?

Are you a Palestinian yourself?

Or the descendant of Palestinians?

Or the relative of Palestinians?

What gives you 'insider knowledge' of the mindset, to an extent that you feel so confident, that they will not pick up and move elsewhere, with the right kind of incentives?

As I said before, given the two options outlined above, only the clinically insane will choose (1).

And, even though the Palestinians are world-reknowned for making bad and foolish decisions, upon reflection, I have a very difficult time believing that they would turn down (2) once the stage has been set and once it's offered to them.

Tell us why you believe that the Palestinians would not abandon the West Bank and Gaza for some kind of New Palestine right next door, should such conditions materialize?'

And, while you're at it, serve-up some kind of credentials, that your predictions in that vein should be taken seriously.


----------



## Hyrcanus (Jun 25, 2013)

The only way Israel is going to get rid of 2 million West Bank Palestinians is by killing them all.

They aren't going to leave willingly and if you use force they will die in Palestine.

And then Israel will be brought before The Hauge for charges of genocide.


----------



## MHunterB (Jun 25, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> The only way Israel is going to get rid of 2 million West Bank Palestinians is by killing them all.
> 
> They aren't going to leave willingly and if you use force they will die in Palestine.
> 
> And then Israel will be brought before The Hauge for charges of genocide.



You are assuming that Israel 'wants to get rid of' those people.  Yet Israel has not 'gotten rid of' the over 20% of her citizens who are 'Palestinian', Muslim and Christian.  Your insistence on this 'getting rid of' idea simply does not follow.


----------



## Hyrcanus (Jun 25, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> You are assuming that Israel 'wants to get rid of' those people.  Yet Israel has not 'gotten rid of' the over 20% of her citizens who are 'Palestinian', Muslim and Christian.  Your insistence on this 'getting rid of' idea simply does not follow.



Every single right-wing Zionist in this forum has called for Israel to remove its Palestinian population and kill all who refuse to leave.

One guy even called for Israel to strip all Gentiles of citizenship.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 25, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> The only way Israel is going to get rid of 2 million West Bank Palestinians is by killing them all.
> 
> They aren't going to leave willingly and if you use force they will die in Palestine.
> 
> And then Israel will be brought before The Hauge for charges of genocide.


You are being asked for intelligent feedback, but you keep reciting Dogma.

What credentials do you have, to convince us that Palestinians would not shift their population, given an appealing alternative?

For someone who so brazenly and rudely castigates his colleagues for not engaging in serious debate and exchanges, you're doing a good job of doing the same.

If we wanted to hear from a Muslim Propaganda Fountain, we would have asked one of your female colleagues to turn-on the spray.


----------



## Hyrcanus (Jun 25, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> ...If we wanted to hear from a Muslim Propaganda Fountain, we would have asked one of your female colleagues to turn-on the spray.



There's no need to be uncivil.


----------



## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 25, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> > You are assuming that Israel 'wants to get rid of' those people.  Yet Israel has not 'gotten rid of' the over 20% of her citizens who are 'Palestinian', Muslim and Christian.  Your insistence on this 'getting rid of' idea simply does not follow.
> ...



Who called for that?  Now you're just making shit up.


----------



## Coyote (Jun 25, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> > You are assuming that Israel 'wants to get rid of' those people.  Yet Israel has not 'gotten rid of' the over 20% of her citizens who are 'Palestinian', Muslim and Christian.  Your insistence on this 'getting rid of' idea simply does not follow.
> ...



Really now? 

You might want to reconsider that claim or back it up...


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 25, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > ...If we wanted to hear from a Muslim Propaganda Fountain, we would have asked one of your female colleagues to turn-on the spray.
> ...


There's also no need to be evasive.

Tell us why we should believe you when you say that the Palestinians would not shift populations from Area A to B, given the right incentives?

What credentials do you bring to the table that render your opinion superior to that of others?


----------



## MHunterB (Jun 25, 2013)

Indofred said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Ah, the old 'Jews are invaders' canard.  Jews 'invaded' in the 19th C partly at the request of the then-government Ottomans - certainly with their knowledge and permission.  They *bought* land and moved onto it to work it and improve it and build communities.  

There are enough recorded incidents of Arab murderous violence against Jews recorded in the 19th C to dispel any myth about 'peaceful co-existence' prior to "Zionism".   Damascus, 1840.......  No 'invading' Jews there!

Even the phrase 'co-existence' is inaccurate:  how is it 'co-' when one group is OFFICIALLY set above others in the LAW? (and I'm referring to the legal codes of he Ottomans and other Muslim-centric governments which essentially did NOT give full citizenship to Jews in the same way as the US has)


----------



## Hyrcanus (Jun 25, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> There's also no need to be evasive.
> 
> Tell us why we should believe you when you say that the Palestinians would not shift populations from Area A to B, given the right incentives?
> 
> What credentials do you bring to the table that render your opinion superior to that of others?



The Palestinians love their land and have shown a profound commitment to it.

The next time Israel tries to exile them they instead will have to commit genocide, cause they ain't going willingly.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 25, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > There's also no need to be evasive.
> ...


TRANSLATION:

"I don't have any particular credentials on the subject that render my opinion superior to that of any of my colleagues here."

Concession noted and accepted... better luck next time.


----------



## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 25, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > There's also no need to be evasive.
> ...


----------



## Hyrcanus (Jun 25, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> "I don't have any particular credentials on the subject that render my opinion superior to that of any of my colleagues here."
> [/SIZE]
> Concession noted and accepted... better luck next time.



facts are facts.


----------



## MHunterB (Jun 25, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Hyrcanus said:
> 
> 
> > MHunterB said:
> ...



Coyote, I think we'll find that this poster has a new and unusual 'definition' of "right-wing Zionist' with which none of us were previously familiar.   He probably thinks that Philsy of Mondoscheisse is a 'centrist'.


----------



## Hyrcanus (Jun 25, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> Coyote, I think we'll find that this poster has a new and unusual 'definition' of "right-wing Zionist' with which none of us were previously familiar.   He probably thinks that Philsy of Mondoscheisse is a 'centrist'.



Its a fact that every right-wing Zionist in this forum has called for Israel to exile the Palestinians, and one them called for all Gentiles in Israel to lose their citizenship.

I won't name him here cause that would be trolling/baiting, but I will provide a link to a thread where I can name him.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/usmb-badlands/299457-neo-zionist-trolls-5.html#post7431495


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 25, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> "..._facts are facts._"


So far, we have seen no 'facts' that reinforce the idea that Palestinians would not choose Option (2) rather than Option (1), if properly motivated with an appealing, just outcome.

And we have seen no 'credentials' from you that would lead a reasonable person to believe that the dogma and opinion which you spout should be viewed as superior and decisive.

Repeat after me:

"*OK, OK, OK, godammit, ya got me on that one. I still believe in what I said, but, in the end, it's just personal opinion. Still, like you, I can hope that I'm proven right, if it ever comes to that.*"

See? Now _*THAT*_ would not have been so painful, would it? Try it sometime.

But that's all part of the maturation process... we learn by doing.


----------



## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 25, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> Its a fact that every right-wing Zionist in this forum has called for Israel to exile the Palestinians, and one them called for all Gentiles in Israel to lose their citizenship.



Here's the problem...

I'm pretty sure that you'd regard me as a "right-wing Zionist" (I'm certainly a Zionist, though I don't know about the "right wing" part).  And yet, I've NEVER called for Israel to exile the Palestinians or to take away their citizenship.

So, if you can answer a direct question rather than continuing your tap dance, how do you justify your comment about "every right-wing Zionist" in the face of this contradiction?


----------



## Hyrcanus (Jun 25, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> Hyrcanus said:
> 
> 
> > "..._facts are facts._"
> ...








Considering what the Nazis, Pogroms, Crusaders, and Inquisition did to us, its sick that you're fantasizing about exiling millions of Palestinians.


----------



## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 25, 2013)

We're waiting for a direct answer.


----------



## Hyrcanus (Jun 25, 2013)

If the UN knew that Israelis would be fantasizing about exiling millions of Palestinians, stripping Gentiles of citizenship, and murdering all Palestinians that refuse to leave, they would not have allowed the creation of Israel or made them a UN member.


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jun 25, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Hyrcanus said:
> ...



Kondor isn't Jewish.  He's a Christian Zionist.


----------



## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 25, 2013)




----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jun 25, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> Hyrcanus said:
> 
> 
> > Its a fact that every right-wing Zionist in this forum has called for Israel to exile the Palestinians, and one them called for all Gentiles in Israel to lose their citizenship.
> ...



I don't consider Arabs who are citizens of Israel proper to be Palestinians.  They're Israeli Arabs.  The Arabs who live in the West Bank and Gaza are Palestinians.


----------



## MHunterB (Jun 25, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > "I don't have any particular credentials on the subject that render my opinion superior to that of any of my colleagues here."
> ...



This tautology adds nothing of value:   it's simply spitting defiance.....

I think it's a fact that none of the Jewish posters here is willing to believe that 'Hyrcanus' is "Jewish" in any more than some technical sense of having had a Jewish parent.  This is because of the breathtaking ignorance his posts have displayed of Jewish history of ALL centuries and areas, among many other factors.


----------



## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 25, 2013)

ForeverYoung436 said:


> HistoryBefore67 said:
> 
> 
> > Hyrcanus said:
> ...


----------



## MHunterB (Jun 25, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> If the UN knew that Israelis would be fantasizing about exiling millions of Palestinians, stripping Gentiles of citizenship, and murdering all Palestinians that refuse to leave, they would not have allowed the creation of Israel or made them a UN member.



Since Lipush is the only Israeli citizen I know of posting here - you'd better show where she's ever suggested anything of the sort.   Unless you'd prefer to apologize to her?


----------



## MHunterB (Jun 25, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> ForeverYoung436 said:
> 
> 
> > HistoryBefore67 said:
> ...


----------



## Hyrcanus (Jun 25, 2013)

Ive listed several comments by right-wing Zionists calling for the Palestinians to suffer ethnic cleansing.

And I have posted the comment by the right-wing Zionist who wants all Israeli Gentiles to lose their citizenship.


----------



## MHunterB (Jun 25, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > ...If we wanted to hear from a Muslim Propaganda Fountain, we would have asked one of your female colleagues to turn-on the spray.
> ...



Yanno, while standing in the pit that's been dug by every 'right-wing Zionist' and 'NeoZionist' - not to mention the *multiple* threads of a trollish yet whining nature! - it's quite difficult to get on that high horse and presume to have the high ground morally.

Just a thought, should you truly desire to continue this 'wounded innocent' ploy......


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 25, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> "..._Considering what the Nazis, Pogroms, Crusaders, and Inquisition did to *us*_..."


Who is "*us*"?

And how does this render your opinion any better or worse than anyone else's.



> "..._its sick that you're fantasizing about exiling millions of Palestinians._"



Ah, I was wondering when you were going to try to single-me-out... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




I *DID* send a shiver up your spine a couple of days ago, didn't I, in speculating about something which you had not yet considered?

I recall speculating upon the End Game between Israel and the Palestinians, with Israel paying them off and helping to move them elsewhere as they condemn, annex and re-task more and more land.

I also recall stating that by subjecting the Jews to decades of suicide bombings and rocket attacks, the Palestinians had left the Israelis with little choice other than to neutralize the viper in its midst, and that juggling populations was a more humane way of doing this than outright killing them.

I also recall stating on multiple occasions throughout that sequence that I was not a stakeholder nor calling for such measures but merely speculating on a likely End-Game strategy as this struggle draws to a close.

I also recall stating that the Israelis would probably be obliged to utilize Police and Military to clean-up any final resistance in wrapping-up this 65-year-old undeclared war.

I also recall mentioning that war produces casualties, and that this was a war, and that the Muslim-Palestinians had blown dozens of opportunities for a better deal and that it was now probably far too late to revisit many or all of those old negotiating-table bullet-points.

I also recall mentioning that if, by some chance, there *WAS* still some slim chance for a negotiated peace, that it would be a meeting between Winners (Israel) and Losers (Palestinians), and that the Winners set-down the terms, and that the Loses accept the terms, and that, if there was still a chance, that the Palestinians had better STFU and cut a deal while they still could, and that a crappy deal was better than none.

I also recall you becoming increasingly agitated at the time as my speculation about End-Game tactics became more detailed - something that delighted me to no end at the time.

*You confuse political speculation with fantasizing*, but I understand that it is in your best interests, and those for whom you advocate (the Palestinians), to attempt to portray it as something else.

But, given your rude penchant for labeling your colleagues as Ultra-Right-Wing Zionists, we really should expect very little of you; certainly not accuracy in labeling them (_not that it is given to *you* to label them, anyway_).

Now, feel free to treat us to several pages of Dogmatic Diarrhea and whining about why your opinion should be given more weight (_on this matter, as well_) than that of any of your colleagues.


----------



## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 25, 2013)

Since Hyrcanus has run away with his tail between his legs, I'm going to clarify a point.

I have stated in another thread that I believe that Israel has the right to deport seditionists.  Giving Hyrcanus the benefit of a doubt that he hardly deserves, perhaps he misinterpreted that to mean that I would advocate deporting all "Palestinians" (that would be an absurd reading of my comments, but given his poor reading comprehension skills, it is possible that this is where he got off the rails).

Let me provide an illustrative example.  Assume Israel were to discover that the Al Asqua Martyr Brigade had established a secret base just outside Netanya... and they clearly were working on a plot to engage in a plot to attack government facilities... what would Israel's right be with respect to these seditionists?  

They could send them to prison, certainly.  But could they also deport them? 

I say yes.  Absolutely.  

Does that mean I'd apply a "guilt by association" mentality and deport all "Palestinians"?  Of course not.

But, Israel, like any sovereign nation in the world, has no obligation to tolerate sedition within its borders.


----------



## MHunterB (Jun 25, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> Ive listed several comments by right-wing Zionists calling for the Palestinians to suffer ethnic cleansing.
> 
> And I have posted the comment by the right-wing Zionist who wants all Israeli Gentiles to lose their citizenship.



Indulge us:  what is your 'definition' for 'right-wing Zionist'?  And then you can give us the list of ID's who you feel are contained in that category here.

Incidentally, you DO know that there's a precedent for that idea, don't you?  I am assuming that you feel it was wrong of all those Arab nations to legislate away the citizenship of their entire Jewish communities and appropriate everything they owned....is that accurate?

If not, you'll need to explain to me why .


----------



## Hyrcanus (Jun 25, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> Ah, I was wondering when you were going to try to single-me-out...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So you support the Israelis eventually trying to "cleanse" the land of all 2.1 million Palestinians.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 25, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> "..._So you support the Israelis eventually trying to 'cleanse' the land of all 2.1 million Palestinians._"


I have not indicated support nor opposition. I have speculated on what is probably going to be necessary as the last of the land is condemned, annexed and re-tasked.


----------



## Hyrcanus (Jun 25, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> I have not indicated support nor opposition. I have speculated on what is probably going to be necessary as the last of the land is condemned, annexed and re-tasked.



oh, so you don't think it will be right or wrong.

it will simply be "neccessary".


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 25, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > I have not indicated support nor opposition. I have speculated on what is *probably* going to be necessary as the last of the land is condemned, annexed and re-tasked.
> ...


Correction. I think that it is *probably* going to prove necessary. I could be wrong. You-and-yours should certainly hope that I'm wrong, that much is certain.

Are you more clear now, on the difference between 'speculation' and 'fantasizing'?

Now, where were we?

Oh, yes...

We were looking for you to substantiate your claim that *all* of these so-called Right Wing Zionists were *calling for* the expulsion of the Muslim-Palestinians from Israel.

You've already had a crack at _one_ of those whom you mistakenly labeled as such, and failed miserably, in _substantiating_ your claim.

But I'm only one of a large number of folks whom you label Right-Wing Zionists, calling for the expulsion of the Palestinians.

Feel free to move on, and serve-up the NEXT target for your biased, faulty interpretations and assumptions.

Who knows... you may get lucky with one of your targets... but, so far, you're batting 0 for 1.

Next slide, please.


----------



## Hyrcanus (Jun 25, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> Correction. I think that it is *probably* going to prove necessary. I could be wrong. You-and-yours should certainly hope that I'm wrong, that much is certain.



Just as the Nazis felt it was eventually necessary to remove the Jewish problem from the planet Earth.


----------



## Coyote (Jun 25, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> Hyrcanus said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...



Another poster pointed out maybe on another thread - *people have ties to places*, particulary if they've been there for generations.  I would imagine that may would fight rather than be moved and no incentive would be enough to go move into some refugee camp or squalor in another country.


----------



## Coyote (Jun 25, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote, I think we'll find that this poster has a new and unusual 'definition' of "right-wing Zionist' with which none of us were previously familiar.   He probably thinks that Philsy of Mondoscheisse is a 'centrist'.
> ...



That is one person.

I'm looking for the "every" in your claim.


----------



## Hyrcanus (Jun 25, 2013)

Coyote said:


> That is one person.
> 
> I'm looking for the "every" in your claim.



im up to three.

i shall be adding more.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 25, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> "..._I agree,:  those who accepted Israeli citizenship may be 'ethnic Palestinians', so to speak - but they function as Israeli citizens and there should be no distinction beween Israeli citizens of different ethnicity OR religion.  I do not think the law makes any such distinction._"


  

That sounds right.

Any Arab who declares and demonstrates loyalty to the State of Israel should be accorded all the rights and privileges of Israeli citizenship.

That is certainly the way we would want to play it here in the United States, and that is certainly the way that most Western countries would want to play it...

But, then again, we are not Israel, nor are we faced with a large, hostile population in our midst, only a few hundred meters from our own backyards...

As a matter of personal opinion, I think it makes sense to encourage the Israelis to continue down that path - in granting loyal Arabs full trust and rights - while keeping in mind their own unique security concerns, which is a state of affairs that we do not have to cope with.

Chances are, they'll get that figured out as well... we can certainly hope so.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 25, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Correction. I think that it is *probably* going to prove necessary. I could be wrong. You-and-yours should certainly hope that I'm wrong, that much is certain.
> ...


*I don't recall the Jews suicide-bombing nor mass-rocket attacking the German civilian population back in the 1930s and 1940s nor swearing to drown the Germans in the North Sea...*


----------



## Hyrcanus (Jun 25, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> I don't recall the Jews suicide-bombing nor mass-rocket attacking the German civilian population back in the 1930s and 1940s...



oh, so its ok for Israel to commit genocide and ethnic cleansing, but not the Germans?

interesting.


----------



## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 25, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > That is one person.
> ...



Who?


----------



## toastman (Jun 25, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't recall the Jews suicide-bombing nor mass-rocket attacking the German civilian population back in the 1930s and 1940s...
> ...



Unbelievable how you compare the two. Typical pro - Palestinian mentality

I recommend you read up on Hitler and how he viewed the Jewish people, as well as the Holocaust itself.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 25, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > That is one person.
> ...


You haven't even scored one yet, Skippy...


----------



## Hyrcanus (Jun 25, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> Any Arab who declares and demonstrates loyalty to the State of Israel should be accorded all the rights and privileges of Israeli citizenship.
> 
> That is certainly the way we would want to play it here in the United States, and that is certainly the way that most Western countries would want to play it...


 
You want American citizens to be forced to declare loyalty to the United States?

what if we say "hell no!!!!!!!"

you gonna deport us?

Good thing we have the 2nd Amendment to deal with such an event.


----------



## Hossfly (Jun 25, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't recall the Jews suicide-bombing nor mass-rocket attacking the German civilian population back in the 1930s and 1940s...
> ...


When have the Israelis committed genocide or ethnic cleaning? This is new to me.


----------



## RoccoR (Jun 25, 2013)

Kondor3,  MHunterB,  _et al,_

This is a dilemma!



Kondor3 said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> > "..._I agree,:  those who accepted Israeli citizenship may be 'ethnic Palestinians', so to speak - but they function as Israeli citizens and there should be no distinction beween Israeli citizens of different ethnicity OR religion.  I do not think the law makes any such distinction._"
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

How do you test loyalty in the Middle East?

BTW:  Has anyone heard from "Lipush" since the rocket attacks?

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Hyrcanus (Jun 25, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> When have the Israelis committed genocide or ethnic cleaning? This is new to me.



during the 1948 war.

after the 1948 war ended.

during the 1973 war.

and now they are slowly cleansing Jerusalem of Arabs by stripping them, thousands every year, of their Permanent Residency.


----------



## Hossfly (Jun 25, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Any Arab who declares and demonstrates loyalty to the State of Israel should be accorded all the rights and privileges of Israeli citizenship.
> ...


Citizens of the US, by virtue of their birth are considered to be loyal and naturalized citizens sign a loyalty oath and recite the pledge of allegience at citizenship ceremonies. Where did you study the American system?


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 25, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Any Arab who declares and demonstrates loyalty to the State of Israel should be accorded all the rights and privileges of Israeli citizenship.
> ...


Your acquaintance with connective logic seems tenuous at best.

Americans have no Civil War extant in their midst.

Americans are therefore assumed to be loyal unless proven otherwise; no explicit declaration is necessary.

That is NOT the case with Israel, so they may be obliged to undertake a more explicit declaration.

*Now, as a matter of furthering your education...

Both during and after the American Civil War, it was quite common to require former Confederate combatants and political leaders and even men-in-the-street to take a Loyalty Oath to the Constitution and the Republic.

Loyalty Oaths have also been required of selected Americans during various other periods of American History.*

Loyalty oath - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So, I don't think we'll be berating the Israelis anytime soon, for requiring such an Oath from members of a group of people whose majority is hostile to the central government.

But, as always, thank you for playing.


----------



## Hossfly (Jun 25, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > When have the Israelis committed genocide or ethnic cleaning? This is new to me.
> ...


I don't believe all that hokum either.


----------



## Hyrcanus (Jun 25, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> Citizens of the US, by virtue of their birth are considered to be loyal and naturalized citizens sign a loyalty oath and recite the pledge of allegience at citizenship ceremonies. Where did you study the American system?


 
Natural-born citizens of the USA don't have to declare allegiance to anyone or anything.

Forcing us to do such a thing would be Fascism, and the 2nd Amendment would be useful to stop such a travesty.


----------



## Hyrcanus (Jun 25, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> I don't believe all that hokum either.



You don't have to believe it.

Its all factual.


----------



## toastman (Jun 25, 2013)

Pro - Palestinian facts are usually fiction in the real world


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 25, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > When have the Israelis committed genocide or ethnic cleaning? This is new to me.
> ...


Maybe the Arabs should not have attacked the Israelis after all, then, eh?

Welcome to your consequences.


----------



## Hyrcanus (Jun 25, 2013)

toastman said:


> Pro - Palestinian facts are usually fiction in the real world



Israel never forced out any Arabs?

whatever man.  Facts are facts.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 25, 2013)

toastman said:


> Pro - Palestinian facts are usually fiction in the real world


----------



## Hyrcanus (Jun 25, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> Maybe the Arabs should not have attacked the Israelis after all, then, eh?
> 
> Welcome to your consequences.



Israel forced out tens of thousands of Arabs even after the 1948 war ended.


----------



## Coyote (Jun 25, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Pro - Palestinian facts are usually fiction in the real world
> ...



It's just one  of those unwelcome truths they try to white wash.


----------



## Coyote (Jun 25, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> Hyrcanus said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



He scored one, that one was clear cut.


Falls far short of "every".  I don't think he's going to bridge the gap


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 25, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe the Arabs should not have attacked the Israelis after all, then, eh?
> ...


Maybe they should not have attacked Israel in the first place?

Vae victus.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 25, 2013)

Coyote said:


> "..._He scored one, that one was clear cut. Falls far short of 'every'. I don't think he's going to bridge the gap._"


Yeah... upon reflection... mebbe... and they *DO* say that even a broken clock is right twice a day. I also think you're right about that 'bridging the gap' business...


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jun 25, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Citizens of the US, by virtue of their birth are considered to be loyal and naturalized citizens sign a loyalty oath and recite the pledge of allegience at citizenship ceremonies. Where did you study the American system?
> ...



When I was a kid in grammar-school, we said the Pledge of Allegiance every morning.  My parents took an oath of allegiance when they became citizens.  And there is currently a spy on-the-run because he had no loyalty to the United States.


----------



## MHunterB (Jun 25, 2013)

Because of something - I suspect Windows 8! - I can't see the precise post or ID the poster on that quote. 
BUT, considering the thread and the board it was on, I wouldn't take the post too seriously.  After all, it was on a blatant troll-and-whine thread down in the sub-basement........


----------



## Hyrcanus (Jun 25, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> Maybe they should not have attacked Israel in the first place?
> 
> Vae victus.



And the Germans blamed Kristalnacht on the Jewish Boycott of Germany.


----------



## Hossfly (Jun 25, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Citizens of the US, by virtue of their birth are considered to be loyal and naturalized citizens sign a loyalty oath and recite the pledge of allegience at citizenship ceremonies. Where did you study the American system?
> ...


Just one example of many oath takings: Everyone who enlists or re-enlists in the military pledges and signs an Oath of Allegience. Then there's the politicians, appointees, police,etc, etc,and so on and so forth. Jebus! Crack a book; you don't know how to google.


----------



## Hyrcanus (Jun 25, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> Just one example of many oath takings: Everyone who enlists or re-enlists in the military pledges and signs an Oath of Allegience. Then there's the politicians, appointees, police,etc, etc,and so on and so forth. Jebus! Crack a book; you don't know how to google.



There is no requirement for all citizens of the USA to take an oath of allegiance.

If there was, the 2nd Amendment would be used to kill suck Fascism.


----------



## Coyote (Jun 25, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Just one example of many oath takings: Everyone who enlists or re-enlists in the military pledges and signs an Oath of Allegience. Then there's the politicians, appointees, police,etc, etc,and so on and so forth. Jebus! Crack a book; you don't know how to google.
> ...



That isn't fascism.  Just saying...


----------



## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 25, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Hyrcanus said:
> 
> 
> > toastman said:
> ...



No, what we reject is the way things are portrayed.

Its not like Israel woke up one day and said "hey, let's kick out the Arabs."

What happened was that the Arabs started a war with the express goal of preventing the Jewish State of Israel from coming into existence.  During that process, and in the time immediately following the war, Israel had to ensure its security by removing hostile forces.

Did that result in the elimination of all Arabs from Israel?  Of course not, as there are Arabs who remain there as Israeli citizens.  

But all we hear is the typical Arab logic.  They constantly whine about the inevitable impact of their own actions.  

P.S.  We're still waiting for you to justify your broad, sweeping comment Hyrcanus (aka Otter).


----------



## HistoryBefore67 (Jun 25, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe they should not have attacked Israel in the first place?
> ...



So, in other words... you don't think that the Holocaust was evil.  Rather, to you, its merely a question of perspective?


----------



## Hossfly (Jun 25, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> Hossfly said:
> 
> 
> > Just one example of many oath takings: Everyone who enlists or re-enlists in the military pledges and signs an Oath of Allegience. Then there's the politicians, appointees, police,etc, etc,and so on and so forth. Jebus! Crack a book; you don't know how to google.
> ...


Otay. You was right, I were wrong. Pardon me for denying the truth. Satisfied?


----------



## Hossfly (Jun 25, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> Hyrcanus said:
> 
> 
> > Hossfly said:
> ...


Usually it is best to let what he/she says to go in one ear and out the other (so to speak).  I noticed he/she was blabbering on another USMessage Board forum condemning Israel once again when he/she conveniently neglected to speak about the actual genocides which have happened in other Middle East countries as well as Africa and Southeast Asia when there are forums there to discuss these issues.  Evidently, he/she thinks it is more important to blabber about the so-called massacres committed by Israel and give a pass to the actual genocides committed elsewhere.  This is why I really can't take such posters seriously.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 25, 2013)

Hyrcanus said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe they should not have attacked Israel in the first place?
> ...


As I've already said...

The Jews were not suicide-bombing the Germans, nor launching indiscriminate massed rocket attacks on the Germans, nor did they swear to drive the Germans into the North Sea, nor did the Jews collaborate with all of the Jewish-dominated countries surrounding Germany, nor did they join repeatedly with those Jewish-dominated neighbor-countries in order to make war on and slaughter the Germans, so...

When you've got a context-aware analogy that you can make along those lines, you go right ahead... until then, well... we'll just set your observations on the back-burner until you can actually substantiate them in an objective fashion...


----------



## toastman (Jun 25, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> Hyrcanus said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...



Best to leave him alone. Anytime a pro - Palestinian brings up Nazi Germany to compare to Israel, you know he's pinned to a corner and has no other legit argument. It's a very typical method used by them.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 25, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> "..._P.S. We're still waiting for you to justify your broad, sweeping comment Hyrcanus (aka Otter)._"


Never gonna happen... he can't, and he knows it... he just doesn't seem able to admit it...


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 25, 2013)

toastman said:


> "..._Best to leave him alone. Anytime a pro - Palestinian brings up Nazi Germany to compare to Israel, you know he's pinned to a corner and has no other legit argument. It's a very typical method used by them._"


Point well taken... I'm always reluctant to pin that sort of tag on someone but I must confess that I'm just about there myself with this 'newcomer' - whom I suspect is not so new after all...


----------



## Coyote (Jun 25, 2013)

*Lets get back to the topic - if you want to discuss socks or dirty laundry, take it to the Flame Zone.*


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 25, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> Hyrcanus said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...


I just received some Neg-Rep from our favorite pro-Palestinian colleague, accusing me of throwing this up as a 'red herring'.







Now, wasn't that just *extra*-special?

How precious...

A sure-fire way of indicating to me that I was on the right track with _that_ one...


----------



## ForeverYoung436 (Jun 25, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Hyrcanus said:
> ...



Haha!!  Didn't Sherri remind you of the Church Lady?  (For those of us who are older and remember her from Saturday Night Live.)


----------



## holston (Jun 26, 2013)

toastman said:


> Best to leave him alone. Anytime a pro - Palestinian brings up Nazi Germany to compare to Israel, you know he's pinned to a corner and has no other legit argument. It's a very typical method used by them.



ADL Condemns Use of Nazi Terminology Against IDF Soldiers by Settlement Supporters




> ADL's Israel Office issued the following statement:
> 
> 
> 
> "As we have said on numerous occasions, regardless of one's political views using such language and evoking Nazi imagery is offensive, demeaning to victims of the Holocaust and is a perversion of history.





> Furthermore, as the term "Nazi" has come to symbolize the personification of evil, using such language is inciteful and can serve to legitimize violence against Israeli soldiers by* anyone who disagrees with the policies of the government.*



Exposing the ?Nazi? Epithet ? Who started it, why, how, and who benefits | Justice for Germans

*The term Nazi (along with Nazism) is a political epithet invented by Konrad Heiden* (7 August 1901  18 June 1966) *during the 1920s as a means of denigrating the NSDAP and National Socialism. Heiden was a journalist and member of the Social Democratic Party.*




> *The fact is, that the term Nazi was created by the enemies of the National Socialists (the NSDAP). *It was a pejorative term; an insult or a slur. The Germans, not even Hitler nor any other top party officials ever called themselves Nazis! They called themselves National Socialists and nothing else. Those who can read German and have studied any of the original documents and speeches know this already, but most dont.





> So, if for no other reason, one should easily understand why the term was regarded as derogatory by the National Socialists and why they would never use it to describe themselves.  One should also see why it would be used and popularized by Marxist-Bolshevik agitators and understand how it was seized upon by various other political opponents and  subversive types, both within Germany and abroad, including the international media and political leaders of the western powers.





> What we must also know about Mr. Heiden, however, is that he was not just any other political opponent in the days of the Weimar Republic. He, himself was a Jew, and his father was a trade unionist, and that the trade unions were teaming with subversive, violent, Marxist-Bolsheviks. And NO, that is not racist statement, nor is intended to promote hatred.  Merely to sate the facts.





> Wikipedia states that:
> 
> Konrad Heiden (7 August 1901  18 June 1966) was an influential Jewish journalist and historian of the Weimar Republic and Nazi eras, most noted for the first influential biographies of German dictator Adolf Hitler. Often, he wrote under the pseudonym Klaus Bredow.


----------



## Lipush (Jun 26, 2013)

Holston, with all due respect, your opinion cannot really be taken seriously on this subject, or ANYTHING concerning Israel, since you are motivated by the Nazi-Ideology, and doesn't even TRY to cover it up.

Really now, what kind of wisdom can you bring forth taking to mind that small fact?

I mean. Seriously.


----------



## holston (Jun 27, 2013)

Lipush said:


> Holston, with all due respect, your opinion cannot really be taken seriously on this subject, or ANYTHING concerning Israel, since you are motivated by the Nazi-Ideology, and doesn't even TRY to cover it up.
> 
> Really now, what kind of wisdom can you bring forth taking to mind that small fact?
> 
> I mean. Seriously.



 There you go again with that "N" word.


----------



## Lipush (Jun 27, 2013)

I wasn't the one using it in the first place.

You really wanna go there?


----------



## MHunterB (Jun 27, 2013)

holston said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > Holston, with all due respect, your opinion cannot really be taken seriously on this subject, or ANYTHING concerning Israel, since you are motivated by the Nazi-Ideology, and doesn't even TRY to cover it up.
> ...



Tsk-tsk, no better source that some shitstain of a blog seeking to whitewash homicidal genocidal fascists.......


----------



## Lipush (Jun 27, 2013)

The dude blamed me for being racist because I dislike Nazis.

I mean. WTF.

Let us get back to the issue, I am interested to know what our government is going to say once this issue is checked.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 27, 2013)

The report addressed in the OP is by The Committee on the Rights of the Child and I am going try to discuss the contents of this report. The link is provided in a prior post.   http://www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/149015072?width=640
From page 1, I read that  the Committee asked Israel for information and data on children living in the OPT, to include Occupied East Jerusalem and the Occupied Golan Heights,  before writing this report. The Committee states on Pg 1 that Israel refused to provide requested information. And the Committee advises Israel to comply with the 2004 Intl Court of Justice Opinion on The Wall and to abide by her obligations under The Geneva Convention  in Israel and the OPT, to include the WB and Gaza and the Golan Heights. (These comments clarify the UN views all of these areas as remaining under Israeli Occupation). Pg 1 ends with the Committee speaking favorably of specific Israeli legislation favorable to children. On Pg 1 and Pg 2 six legislative measures are addressed that the Committee speaks favorably of. Amendment 14 to the Youth Law gives priority to rehabilitation over punishment for children accused and/or convicted of committing a crime and prohibits detention of children below 14 without a court order, enacted in 2009, A second legislative measure establishes the right for a child victim of sexual violence to receive immediate assistance in crisis centre. I find myself wondering the extent to which these two measures actually in practice operate to benefit Palestinian children, as I continue to read of young children imprisoned and children sexually molested, with seeming impunity for settlers or IDF officials who sexually abuse/ molest children.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 28, 2013)

Why can't posters address Israel's abuses/crimes against nonJewish children in Israel and the OPT? Not one single day passes but that children are not unlawfully detained and abused and subjected to myraid other crimes against intl law in Israel and Occupied Palestine and Occupied Syria. The abuses against children by Israel is the topic of this thread. As I write this post, I find myself thinking about Sheeba Farms. I expect there are human rights abuses there,  too.


----------



## MHunterB (Jun 28, 2013)

OK, so which part of Syria is 'Occupied' Syria - according to you?  (The body count has topped 100,000 there:  it's nice you've finally noticed)

Wile we're talking about abuses of children, shouldn't we also mention the HAMAS 'supper camps' training young children to be jihadis?  And the HAMAS TV shows for very young children indoctrinating them with hatred?


----------



## RoccoR (Jun 28, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn,  _et al,_

Some people consider the Shebaa Farms plot of land _(about 10 sq mi)_ as  Israeli-occupied Syria in conjunction with the Golan Heights Occupation.



SherriMunnerlyn said:


> As I write this post, I find myself thinking about Sheeba Farms. I expect there are human rights abuses there,  too.


*(COMMENT)*

Shebaa Farms is "high ground."  From a defensive standpoint, it is nearly always better to deny the enemy (Hezbollah and Syrian Army) the "high ground."

Shebaa Farms is not so important as a tactical position _(although rocket, heavy machine gun, or recoilless rifle are greatly enhanced in effectiveness)_, as it is important in terms of its C3ISR value _(Command, Control, Communications, Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance)_ and target acquisition view over the tri-border area.  

But Shebaa Farms is more about securing water.  There is no human rights issue.



SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Why can't posters address Israel's abuses/crimes against nonJewish children in Israel and the OPT? Not one single day passes but that children are not unlawfully detained and abused and subjected to myraid other crimes against intl law in Israel and Occupied Palestine and Occupied Syria. The abuses against children by Israel is the topic of this thread.


*(COMMENT)*

What new information do you have?

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Coyote (Jun 28, 2013)

*This thread has been cleaned again.  An further derailments that belong in the Flame Zone will result in infractions on a case by case basis.
*


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 28, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> OK, so which part of Syria is 'Occupied' Syria - according to you?  (The body count has topped 100,000 there:  it's nice you've finally noticed)
> 
> Wile we're talking about abuses of children, shouldn't we also mention the HAMAS 'supper camps' training young children to be jihadis?  And the HAMAS TV shows for very young children indoctrinating them with hatred?



Golan Heights is Occupied by Israel and it is specifically addressed in UN Report documenting abuses against children addressed in the OP and Syria has sovereignty rights there. Sheeba Farms is Occupied and there is an apparent dispute over whether Syria or Lebanon have sovereignty rights there. So far, I have not noticed specific references to Sheeba Farms addressed in the UN report discussed in the OP.The report in the OP addresses human rights abuses documented by the UN and other human rights groups. They are not concerned with Fantasy claims of human rights abuses by Zionist Hasbara Propaganda sources like MEMRI. Sherri


----------



## toastman (Jun 28, 2013)

SHEEBA FARMS WAS not part of the withdrawal line that the u.n drew following Operation Litani. The Sheeba farms will never be returned. Never. Ever. Like ever.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 28, 2013)

And, of course, we all know that the UN is entirely impartial and objective when it comes to Israel...

So that anything its Palestinian -leaning agencies have to say about Israeli behavior vis-a-vis the so-called Occupied Territories is entirely reliable and trustworthy and beyond question...

Not...

Anything they have to say about the Israeli presence upon either the Golan or Sheeba Farms is just Same-Old-Same-Old... more of the same... and largely interchangeable with the subjective and condemnatory tone of similar 'research and findings' pertaining to other parts of the region.


----------



## MHunterB (Jun 28, 2013)

OK, so in sherri's fanatasy HAMAS propaganda world, nobody in Gaza has been abused by HAMAS - not the children who watch the HAMAS kiddy show featuring a rip-off of Mickey Mouse, nor the kids dressed as 'martyrs' complete with simulated automatic weapons and explosive vests - and not the kids in HAMAS'summer camp', learning how to low crawl, shoot automatic weapons and infiltrate....

The UN is _*not*_ the sole arbiter of what is or is not 'child abuse' anywhere in the world.  The 'reports' are largely unsubstantiated accusations:  no matter how frequently such allegations are made,  there doesn't seem to be anything approaching evidence.    One may as well be reading the reports of investigations in Salem MA circa 1692.....


----------



## RoccoR (Jun 28, 2013)

_et al,_

Since a time before the LoN Covenant, there has always been a question as to whether the  Arab/Palestinian has what it takes to "stand on their own."

I (personally) do not think they do.

This entire affair with the discussion of the poor and deprived children of Palestine (Gaza, West Bank, Golan Height, etc) demonstrates to me that they don't.

If the were, and the children were such a big deal, the Palestinian as a collective, would have demonstrated that they can take care of their own (standing alone).

That is not self evident.



			
				Children in Islam:  Their Care said:
			
		

> [Al-Shura (Council): Verses 49-50] Hence, it is not surprising that Islamic Shariah (law) pays utmost attention to securing all that is needed to guarantee a wholesome psychological climate for the rearing of children, a climate wherein they learn about the world and formulate their customs and norms.
> 
> As such Islam affirms:
> 
> ...



Maybe they need to follow the book and refrain from actions that have consequences.

Just My Thought,
R


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 28, 2013)

Pg 2 of UN Report addressef in OP. The Committee sets forth 4 legislative measures Israel has implemented they view favorably. The Committee positively notes Israel has ratified the Convention on the Rights of Persons With Disabilities. And the Committee welcomes four institutional and policy measures. Paragraph III. The Committee identifies difficulties impeding the implementation of the Convention, rights children are entitled to under intl law, AS  the longlasting Occupation of Palestine and the Syrian Golan Heights, the continued expansion of unlawful settlements and the construction of the Wall in the WB as well as land confiscation, destruction of houses and livelihood of Palestinians that the Committee labels as severe and continuous violations of the rights of Palestinian children and their families. The Committee further states the Occupation and settlements and other Iidentified human rights abuses feed the cycle of humiliation and violence and jeapordize a peaceful and stable future for all children in the region. The Committee urges Israel to end the Occupation of the OPT and Syrian Golan Heights, to withdraw all settlements  illegally established that present an existential threat to the viability of a future Palestinian State and to cease the transfer of Israels population into the Occupied Syrian Golan Heights.


----------



## Hossfly (Jun 28, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> The report addressed in the OP is by The Committee on the Rights of the Child and I am going try to discuss the contents of this report. The link is provided in a prior post.   GENEVA: United Nations Report - June 14, 2013 - Palestinian children tortured, used as shields by Israel
> From page 1, I read that  the Committee asked Israel for information and data on children living in the OPT, to include Occupied East Jerusalem and the Occupied Golan Heights,  before writing this report. The Committee states on Pg 1 that Israel refused to provide requested information. And the Committee advises Israel to comply with the 2004 Intl Court of Justice Opinion on The Wall and to abide by her obligations under The Geneva Convention  in Israel and the OPT, to include the WB and Gaza and the Golan Heights. (These comments clarify the UN views all of these areas as remaining under Israeli Occupation). Pg 1 ends with the Committee speaking favorably of specific Israeli legislation favorable to children. On Pg 1 and Pg 2 six legislative measures are addressed that the Committee speaks favorably of. Amendment 14 to the Youth Law gives priority to rehabilitation over punishment for children accused and/or convicted of committing a crime and prohibits detention of children below 14 without a court order, enacted in 2009, A second legislative measure establishes the right for a child victim of sexual violence to receive immediate assistance in crisis centre. I find myself wondering the extent to which these two measures actually in practice operate to benefit Palestinian children, as I continue to read of young children imprisoned and children sexually molested, with seeming impunity for settlers or IDF officials who sexually abuse/ molest children.


Are you sure, Frau Sherri, that you are not actually reading what happens in Muslim countries when it comes to torturing and sexually abusing children.  Oh, I forgot, you don't care about the children in these countries -- no matter what is done to them -- because the Jews are not involved.


----------



## Hossfly (Jun 28, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Pg 2 of UN Report addressef in OP. The Committee sets forth 4 legislative measures Israel has implemented they view favorably. The Committee positively notes Israel has ratified the Convention on the Rights of Persons With Disabilities. And the Committee welcomes four institutional and policy measures. Paragraph III. The Committee identifies difficulties impeding the implementation of the Convention, rights children are entitled to under intl law, AS  the longlasting Occupation of Palestine and the Syrian Golan Heights, the continued expansion of unlawful settlements and the construction of the Wall in the WB as well as land confiscation, destruction of houses and livelihood of Palestinians that the Committee labels as severe and continuous violations of the rights of Palestinian children and their families. The Committee further states the Occupation and settlements and other Iidentified human rights abuses feed the cycle of humiliation and violence and jeapordize a peaceful and stable future for all children in the region. The Committee urges Israel to end the Occupation of the OPT and Syrian Golan Heights, to withdraw all settlements  illegally established that present an existential threat to the viability of a future Palestinian State and to cease the transfer of Israels population into the Occupied Syrian Golan Heights.


Since you are asking a question, I feel I can ask you a question.  Since you are so busy running around the Internet day and night bashing the Israelis and the rest of the Jews, how come you don't spend a little of your time on forums condemning what is happening to children in the Muslim world?  By you conveniently being quiet about this on other forums which are available for you, it just shows  you are a hypocrite when it comes to caring about children.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 29, 2013)

Reading more about Sheeba Farms, I have concluded the UN is considering it part of the Occupied Syrian Golan Heights for purposes of the UN Report addressed in the OP. .l However, between Syria and Lebanon I believe these two nations consider Lebanon to have sovereignty rights in this landd called Sheeba Farms.    http://www.shebaafarms.org/briefhistory.html


----------



## Indofred (Jun 29, 2013)

This thread is showing the pro Zionist posters up for what they are.
These people are excusing murder, torture and hate in the name of their god and their right to occupy land they have no claim to.

It's really interesting to see the racism, hate and total support for criminal acts by these posters.
I believe it gives a snapshot of real Zionism, a nasty, bigoted, extremist version of the Jewish faith and one that has no place in a civilised world.

So many people hate Jews because of the extremist morons in your ranks.


----------



## Hossfly (Jun 29, 2013)

Indofred said:


> This thread is showing the pro Zionist posters up for what they are.
> These people are excusing murder, torture and hate in the name of their god and their right to occupy land they have no claim to.
> 
> It's really interesting to see the racism, hate and total support for criminal acts by these posters.
> ...


Show us Fred where anyone is excusing or condoning your charges. I detect a hint of Turnspeak in your charges.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 29, 2013)

Indofred said:


> "_This thread is showing_... "


Really weak mojo, and even weaker excuse for bumping a languishing thread...


----------



## toastman (Jun 29, 2013)

Indofred said:


> This thread is showing the pro Zionist posters up for what they are.
> These people are excusing murder, torture and hate in the name of their god and their right to occupy land they have no claim to.
> 
> It's really interesting to see the racism, hate and total support for criminal acts by these posters.
> ...



Care to show us which posts you are referring to ????


----------



## holston (Jun 30, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> But Shebaa Farms is *more about securing water*.  There is no human rights issue.
> 
> Most Respectfully,
> R



 The truth be known, I think that most conflicts are about just those types of things;
 land, water, resources, etc. 

 The State of Georgia is contesting water rights with Tn. 

 At one time, some folks from Georgia heisted a Civil War period locomotive from Chattanooga and never returned it. 

 Look at how many law suits involve disputes over _things_ like money or property. 

 Then there are the intangibles like "love", ie jealous rivals, wounded pride, games of one-ups-manship. I digress. 




 The "Jews" want the land that Palestinians have been living on (that which hasn't been confiscated already). 

 What is the basis for this claim?
 Why some passages in the Old Testament as _they interpret them!_

 What's ironic about this is that in the US, there are so many atheistic Jews, like the late Carl Sagan and Isaac Asimov who ridicule the Bible as so much superstitious nonsense. Other Jews have equal or greater contempt for the New Testament scriptures which the "Christians" hold with as much reverence as the Jews are supposed to the "Torah" (the Old  Testament). 
 They don't want any Biblical *nonsense* in the schools or the halls of government. But they stand on it as the bed rock of their claim on Palestinian land! (Those ignorant Bible thumpin' hypocrites.)


 Even more absurd is that so many Jews campaign for the removal of all public displays of what they call Christian icons from view. They do all this in the name of "Separation of Church and State". 
  At the same time the ignorant Christians bow and scrape to the very people who would do them in! 
 They give huge sums of money as well as the blood of their own children for the defense and upkeep of a nation whose stated purpose is *to preserve Israel as a JEWISH STATE *at the same time the Jews in the US are doing all they can to secularize and multiculturalize the US as fast as they can. 
 Ridiculous isn't it?

 They attack religion in government at every turn. Yet Chabad Lubavitch, one of the most militant Jewish religious organizations are having Bush Sr declare the NOACHIDE LAWS as the LAW of the LAND.

 Dig It!

 Can you count the contradictions inherent in all of this Jewish activity or would you like for me to enumerate them for you?


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 30, 2013)

Sheeba Farms is land Israel has no sovereignty rights in which she is an Occupier of under intl law. We all must recognize there are human beings who live in all of these occupied lands and that includes children. The UN Report discussed in the OP addresses rights of the child violated within all of these lands Israel occupies within the meaning of intl law. The thread topic is abuses against children.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 30, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> _Sheeba Farms is land Israel has no sovereignty rights in which she is an Occupier of under intl law. We all must recognize there are human beings who live in all of these occupied lands and that includes children. The UN Report discussed in the OP addresses rights of the child violated within all of these lands Israel occupies within the meaning of intl law. The thread topic is abuses against children_.


Please point us to UN coverage of the abuse of children *on the Sheeba Farms*.


----------



## RoccoR (Jun 30, 2013)

Indofred,  _et al,_

I'm not entirely sure that you read the report.
Concluding observations on the second to fourth periodic reports of Israel, adopted by the Committee at its sixty-third session (27 May &#8211; 14 June 2013)



Indofred said:


> Palestinian children tortured, used as shields by Israel: U.N. | Reuters
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*(REFERENCE)*



			
				Torture and other cruel or degrading treatment or punishment
Paragraph 35 said:
			
		

> The Committee expresses its deepest concern about the reported practice of torture and ill-treatment of Palestinian children arrested, prosecuted and detained by the military and the police, and about the State party&#8217;s failure to end these practices in spite of repeated concerns expressed by treaty bodies, special procedures mandate holders and United Nations agencies in this respect. The Committee notes with deep concern that children living in the OPT continue to be:
> (a) Routinely arrested in the middle of the night by soldiers shouting instructions at the family and taken hand-tied and blindfolded to unknown destination without having the possibility to say good bye to their parents who rarely know where their children are taken;
> (b) Systematically subject to physical and verbal violence, humiliation, painful restraints, hooding of the head and face in a sack, threatened with death, physical violence,
> and sexual assault against themselves or members of their family, restricted access to toilet, food and water. These crimes are perpetrated from the time of arrest, during transfer and interrogation, to obtain a confession but also on an arbitrary basis as testified by several Israeli soldiers as well as during pre-trial detention; and
> (c) Held in solitary confinement, sometimes for months.​



*(COMMENT)*


Committee expresses its deepest concern about the reported 
Committee expresses concern about reported

Yes, the Committee "expresses its concern."  Notice, not once did the report suggest it had evidence of any torture.  Only reports from undisclosed sources.  If I make a claim in this discussion group without a citation, I get raked over the coals.  But some members of the group are more than willing to accept hearsay.  The Committee did not actually observe any wrong doing.

Did some of these things happen.  I have no doubt they did.  The are investigated and some are found to be in-policy, some are found to be unsubstantiated allegations, and some are found to be outside of policy and are dealt with as may be appropriate.

For those of you who have never been to a Juvenile Detention Center (JDC) in the Middle East, I guarantee you that the best are found in Israel.

The issue really is the attention the Arab/Palestinian parents show towards their children.  If there is so much concern, why is there not one word written to explain how it came to be that any of the children were left without proper parental supervision and then performed some act as to come to the attention of the IDF?  Where were the parents.  We use to have TV commercials in the US that pictured a child in handcuffs being lead into a (JDC).  All it said was:  "Do you know where your children are?"

Well, I say, after you're all done spinning the relative importance of the report on what hearsay was reported:  Palestinians! Do you know where your children are now?

This type of propaganda is the same old "I am a victim" claim for the last nine (9) decades.  The Palestinian has never done anything wrong, and the big bad Israeli came along and arrested me for no reason at all.  That pipe-bomb isn't mine, I don't know how it got in my bag.  I didn't throw that rock which hit the soldier in the face.  It just fell out of the sky.  That rocket didn't come from my street, and I don't know how that tunnel got there.​
The Palestinian is never caught doing anything wrong, and when they are, they claim some none existent right to violence by any means.  

The Israelis, yes, from time to time will make mistakes.  In the last 60 years of combatting hostile Arab/Palestinians, I'm sure there will have been many mistakes.  There are no angels on the front line.  Do the Palestinians have some legitimate grievances, of course they do.  But I find it hard to hold sympathy for the Palestinians that openly advocate violent confrontations.  The occupation and quarantine needs to remain in place to separate, not Israeli from Palestinian, but to separate the dangerous threat that is the Palestinian from the potential harm they will do to the peaceful.  And that may require, from time to time, the hard hand.

I'm still waiting for the Palestinian to demonstrate the pathway to peace.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## RoccoR (Jun 30, 2013)

Kondor3, SherriMunnerlyn,  _et al,_

I usually read these reports, in a quick scan.



Kondor3 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > _Sheeba Farms is land Israel has no sovereignty rights in which she is an Occupier of under intl law. We all must recognize there are human beings who live in all of these occupied lands and that includes children. The UN Report discussed in the OP addresses rights of the child violated within all of these lands Israel occupies within the meaning of intl law. The thread topic is abuses against children_.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

When you raised the question, I went back and re-read the report, line-by-line, all 21 pages, and 79 paragraphs.

Sheeba Farms is not mentioned even once, let alone relative to the children in any way.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## toastman (Jun 30, 2013)

The Sheeba farms was NOT part of the withdrawal line that the U.N drew concerning the withdrawal of Israel from Lebanon following Operation Litani


----------



## toastman (Jun 30, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> Kondor3, SherriMunnerlyn,  _et al,_
> 
> I usually read these reports, in a quick scan.
> 
> ...




Of course it's not. Sherri just likes to make shit up to demonize Israel. Nothing new here


----------



## RoccoR (Jun 30, 2013)

holston,  _et al,_

What do the Arab/Palestinians expect to achieve by continued struggle?  Greater prosperity?



holston said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > But Shebaa Farms is *more about securing water*.  There is no human rights issue.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

I discount the ancient claims presented by both sides; biblical - historical - or otherwise.

The conflict between the Jewish and the Arab over the region is basically about a decision that was made nearly a century ago (90 years +).   All these various issues that have popped-up since then, are merely ancillary to the decision that really was the theme.

"Whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connexion of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country;" 

An appropriate Jewish agency shall be recognized as a public body for the purpose of advising and cooperating with the Administration of Palestine in such economic, social and other matters as may affect the establishment of the Jewish national home and the interests of the Jewish population in Palestine, and, subject always to the control of the Administration, to assist and take part in the development of the country. 

The Zionist Organization, so long as its organization and constitution are in the opinion of the Mandatory appropriate shall be recognized as such agency. It shall take steps in consultation with His Britannic Majesty's Government to secure the cooperation of all Jews who are willing to assist in the establishment of the Jewish national home.​
This decision was made by the powers-that-be at the time; the Allied Powers _(called that for a reason)._  What we call the Arab/Palestinian today, simply wasn't in control.  They were the enemy population of the Empire that fell.  

Forget all this other stuff.  The Allied Powers saw a need and made a decision which was their right and authority at that time.  You simply can't apply todays standards to a protocol establish a century ago.

Of course, we don't expect the Palestinian of today to understand that.  And there are many that would today, disagree with the decision made back then.  But the fact of the matter is, it was made.  And all the end-fighting the Arabs have initiated since that time, has done nothing helpful for the Arab/Palestinian; they just made it worse for themselves.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 30, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > _Sheeba Farms is land Israel has no sovereignty rights in which she is an Occupier of under intl law. We all must recognize there are human beings who live in all of these occupied lands and that includes children. The UN Report discussed in the OP addresses rights of the child violated within all of these lands Israel occupies within the meaning of intl law. The thread topic is abuses against children_.
> ...



The Report addresses human rights  conditions of children throughout the territories Israel occupies, which is clear from page 1 of that UN Report. Read the report for yourself.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 30, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> holston,  _et al,_
> 
> What do the Arab/Palestinians expect to achieve by continued struggle?  Greater prosperity?
> 
> ...



I see no clear  agreement of the Allied Powers about Palestine 90 years ago, the Mandate itself contained clauses which was adopted by The League Of Nations  within it sending mixed messages to people Iin the land.


----------



## toastman (Jun 30, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



He was referring to the Sheeba farms. You claimed there are human rights abuses there. Are you admitting you were wrong when you made that statement ?


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 30, 2013)

Lebanon and*Syria*say the*Shebaa Farms, measuring just 22sqkm, is Lebanese territory, though the UN has ruled it*part*of the*Syrian Golan Heights,*

IRIN Mobile. IRIN is a UN organization and they state Sheeba Farms is  a part of the Occcupied Syrian Golan Heights.


----------



## toastman (Jun 30, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Lebanon and*Syria*say the*Shebaa Farms, measuring just 22sqkm, is Lebanese territory, though the UN has ruled it*part*of the*Syrian Golan Heights,*
> 
> IRIN Mobile. IRIN is a UN organization and they state Sheeba Farms is  a part of the Occcupied Syrian Golan Heights.



*The United Nations had to decide upon a "withdrawal line" for Israel to withdraw from Lebanon (for Security Council Resolution 425).[4] The UN certified Israel's withdrawal as conforming to that line.*

Shebaa farms - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 30, 2013)

The UN views Sheeba Farms as part of the Occupied Syrian Golan Heights. The UN Report addressed in the OP discusses the condition of children and their human rights issues within all of the Occupied Territories, Occupied Syrian Terrritories and Occupied Palestinian Territories.


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## toastman (Jun 30, 2013)

Show us specifically where the Sheeba Farms is mentioned in that report, you lying sack of propaganda spewing Nazi


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 30, 2013)

I keep having to repeat myself over and over. Page 1of the UN Report indicates the report is addressing the condition of the child in the Occupied Palestinian Territories and the Occupied Syrian Golan Heights. Sheeba Farms is part of the Syrian Occupied Territories.


----------



## toastman (Jun 30, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> I keep having to repeat myself over and over. Page 1of the UN Report indicates the report is addressing the condition of the child in the Occupied Palestinian Territories and the Occupied Syrian Golan Heights. Sheeba Farms is part of the Syrian Occupied Territories.



So you admit that you lied about the Sheeba farms. Thanks for at least acknowledging that...it takes guts to do that


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 30, 2013)

PG 3 Of UN Report contains Recommendations to ensure provisions in the Convention On The Rights Of Child are met, that include such things as requiring the Occupying State to disseminate informstion on the Convention in all official languages among children and parents and collect data on all persons under 18 and use this data to assess progress and design policies to implement the Convention. The Committee also recommends Israel integrate the rights and principles provisions of the Convention into its domestic legal system. Pg 4 More recomendations to insure compliance  with Convention


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## Kondor3 (Jun 30, 2013)

And here I thought that the Shebba Farms region was uninhabited in modern times.

If true, that makes it kinda difficult to abuse nonexistent children.

Then again, the original reference (previous page) was just a bad segue and thread-bumping excuse anyway.


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 30, 2013)

PG 5 Committee begins to address the Convention, Israel is bound to abide this Convention by her treaty obligations under intl law. Defining the child, a child has rights up to turning 18. The Committee points out that Israel signed into law a Military Order 1676 in 9/11 that raises the age of majority in adult military courts from 16 to 18. But the Committee expresses concern that Israel is not in practice applying this order. The Committee urges Israel to ensure children are in fact treated as chidren up to 18, in particular with respect to the provisions involving juvenile justice. The Committee addresses General Principles .  Non-discrimination.  Paragraph 21- The Committee is concerned that non discrimination is not a right under Israels Basic Laws. The Committee is concerned about numerous specific laws enacted that discriminate against Palestinians and affect primarily Palestinian children in all all aspects of their life and also affect Arab Israeli and Bedouin and Ethiopian children and children of migrant workers and asylum seekers. The Committee is concerned the establishment of separate means of transport and road services and the implementation of two separate legal systems and institutions amount to de facto segregation and lead to inequality between Israeli and Palestinian children. The Committee urges Israel to mandate the prohibition of discrimination into her Basic Laws and for a repeal of discriminatory laws and policies.


----------



## RoccoR (Jun 30, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn,  _et al,_

I believe you are incorrect, but understandably so.  This is a timeline issue of when decisions were made.



> "The San Remo Conference decided on April 24, 1920 to assign the Mandate [for Palestine] under the League of Nations to Britain. The terms of the Mandate were also discussed with the United States which was not a member of the League. An agreed text was confirmed by the Council of the League of Nations on July 24, 1922, and it came into operation in September 1923."
> 
> _*SOURCE:*_ San Remo Convention - World War I Document Archive
> and
> Syria, Mesopotamia, Palestine mandates - San Remo conference (UK, France, Italy, Japan) - Resolution (Non-UN document) (25 April 1920)





			
				San Remo Resolution said:
			
		

> This agreement between post-World War I allied powers (Britain, France, Italy, Japan) was adopted on April 25, 1920 during the San Remo Conference. The Mandate for Palestine was based on this resolution; it incorporated the 1917 Balfour Declaration and the Covenant of the League of Nation's Article 22. Britain was charged with establishing a "national home for the Jewish people" in Palestine. Terroritorial boundaries were not decided until four years after.
> 
> _*SOURCE:*_ San Remo Resolution - Council on Foreign Relations





SherriMunnerlyn said:


> I see no clear  agreement of the Allied Powers about Palestine 90 years ago, the Mandate itself contained clauses which was adopted by The League Of Nations  within it sending mixed messages to people in the land.


*(COMMENT)*

The correct order of events is:


The Balfour Declaration which drive San Remo of 2 November 1917 and the Faisal-Wiezmann Agreement.
Faisal-Wiezmann Agreement of 3 January 1919, which impacts Article 22 of the evolving Covenant.
National aspirations
Zionist Organization

THE COVENANT OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS 28 April 1919, Article 22, pushes the San Remo accord.  Comes into effect 10 January, 1920.
You will notice that the language follows in successive documents.  The Article 22 of the Covenant remains silent on the issue of the Jewish National Home.  Its importance is to state for the record that the region is not yet ready to stand on its own, independent and sovereignty.​
San Remo Conference, 25 April 1920 which drives the language of Articles 94-97 and 132 of the 
[*]Treaty of Sevres 10 August 1920; and the undefined territorial 
[*]Mandate of Palestine 22 August 1922.

Notice that the phrase:
"in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."​It first appears in the San Remo accord and follows through all documents there after; except the Covenant.  The San Remo accord is the father of the language that push through with everything after to the Mandate.

The importance of the San Remo Convention is found in the Churchhill White Paper of 3 June, 1922.



			
				Churchill White Paper said:
			
		

> So far as the Jewish population of Palestine are concerned it appears that some among them are apprehensive that His Majesty's Government may depart from the policy embodied in the Declaration of 1917. It is necessary, therefore, once more to affirm that these fears are unfounded, and that that Declaration, re-affirmed by the Conference of the Principal Allied Powers at San Reino and again in the Treaty of Sevres, is not susceptible of change.
> 
> _*SOURCE:*_ "Churchill White Paper" - UK Secretary of State for the Colonies (3 June 1922)





Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 30, 2013)

Just because a Mandate is assigned to a Nation, it does not give that nation a right to make up and apply their own laws to the Mandated Territories. A Mandate is in the nature of a trust relationship, soveregnty in the land was always with and never has left the indigenous people in the land.


----------



## RoccoR (Jun 30, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn,  _et al,_

How do you make a law?  (Rhetorical)  You make the law through a legislative act.



SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Just because a Mandate is assigned to a Nation, it does not give that nation a right to make up and apply their own laws to the Mandated Territories. A Mandate is in the nature of a trust relationship, soveregnty in the land was always with and never has left the indigenous people in the land.


*(COMMENT)*



			
				Article 1 Mandate of Palestine said:
			
		

> The Mandatory shall have full powers of legislation and of administration, save as they may be limited by the terms of this mandate. - See more at: Mandate for Palestine - League of Nations (12 August 1922)



Yes, a Mandate is an incredible responsibility.  And I believe the UK did its best.  I believe the UK went out of its way to protect the rights of the Palestinian, remembering of course, the requirement "in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people."

I see the Arab/Palestinian is hostile people.  They will go to any length to create trouble and attempt to find so rule they can hold in their favor.

They are the undoubtedly the biggest whiners in the region; an albatross and parasite to everyone that attempt to help them or point them in a productive direction.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 30, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> SherriMunnerlyn,  _et al,_
> 
> How do you make a law?  (Rhetorical)  You make the law through a legislative act.
> 
> ...



The British never had sovereignty rights in land to give to anyone, the sovereignty rights remain with the indigenous people. The Balfour Declaration was itself a violation of intl law and that is addressed in Part 1 of that UN Historical document. That is what intl law tells us. Now, defining who the indigenous people are now, to me seems to be the bigger problem. We started the Mandate Period with about 80% Palestinian Muslims and 10% Palestinian Christians and 10% Palestinian Jews in the land of Palestine. Israel ethnically cleansed 750, 000 Palestinians from the land from 1947 to 1949. I think them and their descendants now total about 5 million. They have the right to return under intl law. There are over 5 million Palestinians in Israel and the OPT. There may be some overlap between my two groupings of 5 million refugees  and 5 million Palestinians Iin Palestine and Israel because some who still live in the land are also refugees from their original villages.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 30, 2013)

The problem for the Palestinians is that they no longer control the land upon which the modern State of Israel is positioned, and they have very little practical hope of changing that.

Consequently, they dwell upon now-meaningless 70 and 80 and 90 -year-old treaties and understandings that were swept aside by events in the period 1947 to the present.

It's over.

The Jews won.

The Muslim-Palestinians lost.

The Palestinian Cause is rather like a chicken with its head freshly cut off...

Its body runs-about the barnyard flapping its wings and spraying blood from the open neck wound and making a mess...

But it's dead, nevertheless - its body simply hasn't figured that out yet - but when it does, it will lie down sensibly and be still forever more.

Today, it matters very little what the Balfour Declaration said, or what the of the League of Nations -sponsored British Mandate of Palestine empowered the British to do.

What matters is who has the land today, and who is going to have the land tomorrow.

The answer to both of those questions is: Israel.

Palestine no longer figures into the equation, beyond the short-term.


----------



## Sweet_Caroline (Jun 30, 2013)

The fact the Pals have been offered land several times in violation of the San Remo Mandate, and yet the Pals still refused it shows that they really do not have the interests of their people at heart and simply want to drive all the Jews out of the land of Israel and keep the whole land for themselves.  Don't they just love playing the poor ickle victims.


----------



## RoccoR (Jun 30, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn,  _et al,_



SherriMunnerlyn said:


> The British never had sovereignty rights in land to give to anyone, the sovereignty rights remain with the indigenous people.


*(COMMENT)*

Relative to Israel, the UK never gave anything away.  The Mandate was first partitioned to permit the establishment of the Hashemite Kingdom.  But that was done with the approval of the LoNs and the Allied Powers.  There is no violation of international law there.



SherriMunnerlyn said:


> The Balfour Declaration was itself a violation of intl law and that is addressed in Part 1 of that UN Historical document. That is what intl law tells us.


*(COMMENT)*

The Balfour Declaration did not implement or effect any change.  The Balfour Declaration pre-dates any of the International laws you can cite.

It was the San Remo Convention, the Treaty of Sevres, and ultimately the General Assembly Resolution 181(II) --- then the General Assembly Resolution 273 (III). Admission of Israel to membership in the United Nations.

The UK relinquished the Mandate before the Israelis declared Independence and accepted the terms as offered by the General Assembly.  The General Assembly makes the International Law.  The UK didn't violate anything, it had already withdrawn.



SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Now, defining who the indigenous people are now, to me seems to be the bigger problem. We started the Mandate Period with about 80% Palestinian Muslims and 10% Palestinian Christians and 10% Palestinian Jews in the land of Palestine.


*(COMMENT)*

Somehow you think this makes some difference.  It doesn't.  

It was the intention of those who wrote the International Law to "recognition has thereby been given to the historical connexion of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country." 



SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Israel ethnically cleansed 750, 000 Palestinians from the land from 1947 to 1949.


*(COMMENT)*

The Arab/Palestinian brought that on themselves.  It was they who initiated violent action when the GA adopted the Partition Plan in 1947; not the Jewish.  It was the Hostile Arab/Palestinian (HoAP) that became the threat to regional peace in 1947.



SherriMunnerlyn said:


> I think them and their descendants now total about 5 million. They have the right to return under intl law.


*(COMMENT)*

No one - no group - no people, who openly was and continues to be a threat to regional peace has the right to return anywhere.  The concept of the right to return presuppose that the right is extended to peaceful peoples.  It does not apply to a enemy population that ignited a war, lost their land and now want it back.



SherriMunnerlyn said:


> There are over 5 million Palestinians in Israel and the OPT. There may be some overlap between my two groupings of 5 million refugees  and 5 million Palestinians in Palestine and Israel because some who still live in the land are also refugees from their original villages.


*(COMMENT)*

Sad, but self-inflicted.

The HoAP owes reparations, restitution and compensation for initiating the outbreak of hostilities, for criminally conspiring with Arab States that invaded the integrity of a sovereign nation, and for organizing and instigating additional wars and insurrections against the sovereignty of a nation, and regional peace, causing great harm to the people and the integrity of the nation.

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## Indofred (Jun 30, 2013)

All this rubbish about who won and lost a war is simply deflection from the accusations I laid out in my OP.
Israel, the only country in the world to ever give the UN the finger (Not even North Korea have done that), tortures children.

Countries that break so many laws are usually invaded (in case they have WMDs) or have sanctions  against them, but America pays Israel and supplies massive quantities of arms (at American taxpayer's expense) so it can defend itself.

One has to wonder why.


----------



## RoccoR (Jun 30, 2013)

Indofred,  _et al,_

Because nearly everyone understands that this is a propaganda to incite emotion.



Indofred said:


> All this rubbish about who won and lost a war is simply deflection from the accusations I laid out in my OP.
> Israel, the only country in the world to ever give the UN the finger (Not even North Korea have done that), tortures children.
> 
> Countries that break so many laws are usually invaded (in case they have WMDs) or have sanctions  against them, but America pays Israel and supplies massive quantities of arms (at American taxpayer's expense) so it can defend itself.
> ...


*(COMMENT)*

This is a variant of hiding behind children.  

Most Respectfully,
R


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jun 30, 2013)

THose human rights groups keep telling us it is a Israel and not Hamas using children as human shields. And torture typically comes after unlawful detentions.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jun 30, 2013)

Indofred said:


> "..._One has to wonder why._"


Because we like Jews much more than we like Muslims?


----------



## holston (Jun 30, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> holston,  _et al,_
> 
> What do the Arab/Palestinians expect to achieve by continued struggle?  Greater prosperity?
> 
> ...



 So what gave Britain the right to give away anybody elses land?

 You obviously ascribe to the idea that might makes right. 

 I suppose I do to. That's why I believe that anyone who wants to be free must be willing to fight for it. 
 If the other guy has the upper hand, one must decide whether he is ready to pay the cost in the attempt to gain it. 

 I further suppose the Palestinians have a choice. They can submit to Jewish hegemony or to slow genocide. 

 In the US, as the strangle hold of Zionism tightens it's grip, we the gentiles are faced with the same proposition. 
 Obviously those who are in bed with them choose the comfort of slavery as opposed to the cost of resistance. 
 The country has been Judaized to accept the multicultural agenda. Too many are willing to sacrifice tomorrow to avoid facing conflict today. 

 They are afraid of the brown forces being amassed against them by ZOG and figure it is easier just to lay down and be rolled over as to risk going against the Zionist establishment. The primary reason for this cowardice is due to the fact that too many white gentiles are either strung out on drugs, on the dole, too ignorant to understand what is happening to them, feel cozy enough getting screwed, or  are too wicked in their own ways to care. 

 Let me be clear about this. I am not a Muslim. I am as unwilling to submit myself to Islam as I am to a Jewish Plutocracy. I do not accept the option of accepting one or submitting to the other as is implied by the media propaganda called "the war on terror". 
 The prospects of a Jewish "Messianic Age" is terrifying all by itself. 

 What difference would it make to me whether an insane Muslim chopped my head off with a sword for not professing Muhammed or to have it removed by a Jewish guillotine for failure to comply with the "Noachide Laws"?

 There are multiple reasons why this country is headed down the path it is headed. I have already pointed out a few. The power of social taboos and ability of pop culture to restrict freedom of thought is powerful. 

 They fear the blacks. They fear the Mexicans. They fear being ostracized. They fear being labeled "racist" or antisemitic. They fear being ridiculed by their peers. They fear the consequences of being politically correct. 

 Perhaps most troubling of all, they fear their own government.

 Whites have been brainwashed and programed to contend against one another, to conform to standards impressed upon them by TV, movies, and other forms of media. 

 Rather than face their fears, many of the gangsta wanna bees had rather express their insolence and desire to debauch by attacking the least able to defend themselves, _among their own people._ So they follow the Tinsel Town Pied Piper down the road to their own destruction. And the only people they are willing to go up against are their own kind. 


 This is how I read the times we are in. Tell me that I am misdiagnosing the problem.

 Do you really think that I wouldn't prefer to believe otherwise?
 No. 
 I just cannot bring myself to listen to the ZOG sirens telling me all is well. There are too many reasons to think otherwise that simply won't go away. Should I doubt my own eyes to placate them? 
How can I bring myself to be lulled by false reassurances urging me to shut up and go back to sleep when they give me constant reminders that amount to so many slaps in the face?


 No. I am not a Muslim. But I don't blame them for shooting bottle rockets at Israelis. That's about all they can do besides just laying down and dieing.

http://www.biblestudysite.com/factsarefacts.htm


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## holston (Jun 30, 2013)

Israel | A Jewish Defector Warns America: Benjamin Freedman speaks


> Well, England, in the summer of 1916 was considering that. Seriously!   They had no choice.  It was either accepting this negotiated peace that Germany was magnanimously offering them, or going on with the war and being totally defeated.
> 
> While that was going on, the Zionists in Germany, who represented the Zionists from Eastern Europe, went to the British War Cabinet and -- I am going to be brief because this is a long story, but I have all the documents to prove any statement that I make  if anyone here is curious, or doesn't believe what I'm saying is at all possible -- the Zionists in London went to the British war cabinet and they said: &#8220;Look here.  You can yet win this war.  You don't have to give up.  You don't have to accept the negotiated peace offered to you now by Germany.  You can win this war if the United States will come in as your ally.&#8221;
> 
> ...




 What's that you say??!!

 Surely there should be a way to verify what has been said here, or have all the news archives been destroyed?



> Now those same Jews, when they saw the possibility of getting Palestine, they went to England and they made this deal.  At that time, everything changed, like the traffic light that changes from red to green.  Where the newspapers had been all pro-German, where they'd been telling the people of the difficulties that Germany was having fighting Great Britain commercially and in other respects, all of a sudden the Germans were no good.   They were villains.   They were Huns. They were shooting Red Cross nurses.  They were cutting off babies' hands.  And they were no good.
> 
> Well, shortly after that, Mr. Wilson declared war on Germany.




 If the truth of this could be shown, how many people in the US being made aware of it would be willing to continue on the manner MANDATED by the Jewish Lobby, regardless of how much it cost in terms of blood and money?

 And how many of them are willing to relinquish US sovereignty? 
 How many whites alive today are willing to allow themselves to be made a minority and third class citizens in their own country?

 How many of them want to be at the mercy of Jewish overlords and the caprice of invaders from third world countries?

 If the answer is the majority, then we may as well resign ourselves to the fact that in the future, our children and grandchildren will be subject to the _same kind of treatment_ that the Palestinians are receiving today. 
 Do you really trust your welfare in these peoples hands?

 Sorry, I don't. 

 Just listen to the way they are going on here and you should get an idea as to why I don't.


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## toastman (Jun 30, 2013)

holston said:


> RoccoR said:
> 
> 
> > holston,  _et al,_
> ...



What do they plan on accomplishing by launching rockets ??


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## holston (Jun 30, 2013)

toastman said:


> What do they plan on accomplishing by launching rockets ??



 Maybe they hope that someday they will attract the attention of the world to their plight so that the world may at some time lend a hand. Maybe they realize that they are only clutching at straws, but lack any other means of expression. 
 Maybe this is an expression of bitter resentment. 

 Maybe it is merely a gesture of defiance, much as the Jewish forces in the US have been defying their gentile hosts for the past century or so. 

 The only difference there would be that in a country which has been steeped in Christian traditions, such means have worked. 

But in a country that is a religious state such as Israel is, there is a snow ball's chance in hell that such protests and complaints will ever work without outside intervention. 
 This IS the point you are trying to impress upon me isn't it?
 If so, then I agree with you. The chances of the Jews giving an inch in negotiations are zero. The only hope the Palestinians have is to turn the tide of public opinion in the US against the Jewish Lobby. Which incidentally makes the whole mission of 9/11 alleged to have been carried out by Arabs seem ridiculous. How could they be slick enough to pull it off and too stupid to see the consequences at the same time?

 So I find myself in a situation similar to the Palestinians in hoping that my words here will have any impact on the ZOG establishment in the US. Already the Jews in this country are calling themselves the "New WASPS", which is a clear indication that they believe that the US is _theirs_ to do with as they please. Natural born white gentiles in America are viewed upon by the Jewish Supremacists as so many chattel available to them to dispose of as they please. 

 Imagine that. Christians and Muslims agreeing on anything. Adversity makes strange bed fellows. But then, the "white" Jews being in bed with the blacks for so long has been an unlikely union too.


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## skye (Jun 30, 2013)

toastman said:


> holston said:
> 
> 
> > RoccoR said:
> ...



Very simple. To kill Israelis. 

or failing that.... to get a reaction from Israel and in that way obtain more propaganda for their twisted cause.


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## holston (Jun 30, 2013)

skye said:


> Very simple. To kill Israelis.
> 
> or failing that.... to get a reaction from Israel and in that way obtain more propaganda *for their twisted cause.*



 What's that, freedom from Zionist brutality?


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## toastman (Jun 30, 2013)

The term 'Zionist Brutality' is just part of the Palestinian Propaganda campaign.


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## toastman (Jun 30, 2013)

skye said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > holston said:
> ...



bingo !


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## toastman (Jun 30, 2013)

holston said:


> skye said:
> 
> 
> > Very simple. To kill Israelis.
> ...



Since Israel removed it's soldiers and settlers from Gaza, over 20 000 rockets have been launched into Israel. How has this helped the Palestinians and their cause ?


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## RoccoR (Jun 30, 2013)

holston,  _et al,_

Well, you have it wrong.  The UK didn't give anybodies land away, least of all, anything the Palestinians owned.



holston said:


> So what gave Britain the right to give away anybody elses land?
> 
> You obviously ascribe to the idea that might makes right.
> 
> No. I am not a Muslim. But I don't blame them for shooting bottle rockets at Israelis. That's about all they can do besides just laying down and dieing.


*(COMMENT)*

The land was never under Palestinian sovereignty.  Never!  They may have been there for thousands of years, but they never governed themselves.  For 800 years prior to the mandate, they were under the Ottoman Empire.  Under the Treaty of Sevres, Articles 94 thru 97, and Article 132, the fate of the region called Palestine (it had no real outline or borders), was handed over to the Allied Powers.

When the UK withdrew from the Mandate, the Jewish Agency declared Israeli Independence.  The UK did not give it away.

The UK helped Jordan, Iraq, Kuwait, Egypt and the Sudan gain their independence in much the same way.  They were all protectorates of one sort or another.  Jordan was part of the Palestine Mandate.



holston said:


> No. I am not a Muslim. But I don't blame them for shooting bottle rockets at Israelis. That's about all they can do besides just laying down and dieing.


*(COMMENT)*

Oh no.  Don't let them pull the wool over your eyes.  Under General Assembly Resolution 181(II), which the Palestinians themselves see as legitimate, partitioned a peace of the remaining 23% of the Mandate to the Arab/Palestinian.  They wanted the entire remainder and so went to war.

But the Palestinian had no inherent right to sovereignty.  Never!

Further, land ownership and sovereignty are two entirely different things.  The Allied Powers never took any land ownership away.  That happened as a result of the Arab outbreak of violence when the General Assembly passed GA RES 181(II), and then more when Israel Declared Independence and the five (5) Arab Armies attacked.  Occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip happened in 1967, when the Arabs were massing troop concentrations on their borders.

There is a really nice condensed history of all this in:  The Question of Palestine and the United Nations 

There is also a UK perspective in the "Memorandum by His Britannic Majesty's Government presented in 1947 to the United Nations Special Committee on Palestine" which is General Assembly item A/AC.14/8 2 October 1947.

This is not a case of "Might Makes Right."  This is a case of the fall of an Empire.  And in WWI, four (4) Empires fell within two years of each other.  This is about who and how Empires were disposed of in the early 20th Century.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jul 1, 2013)

But you are living in the past, today is the day for those living inside Middle East Nations indigenous to those lands, the Palestinian people still live and their numbers grow larger every single day that passes. God takes care of them, as He cares for all of his treasured and precious creations. Empires certainly do rise and they certainly do fall,  we are watching one falling right now. The only question, is when shall our end come? That certainly shall be a day for celebration by many, in so many lands we have visited to attack and kill the innocent within. I cant help but see some Justice in the future I know that shall be unfolding. We none of us are invincible, not any of us individuals or any of our nations.  And to try and get back to the topic, that is Israels human rights abuses against children inside Israel and Occupied lands. This is day in and day out and not one day passes but that I do not but read yet more stories of abuse. Pg 5 of the June 13 UN Report addresses the systematic underpinnings of these human rights abuses. ISRAEL has Basic Laws that do not grant rights to nonJewish children and all nonJews  to live in the land free from discrimination. And numerous specific  Israeli laws and practices have been adopted and  institutionalized that deliberately discriminate and treat unequally nonJews in the land, to include children.   "While taking note of court decisions on discrimination, the Committee however reiterates its concern (CRC/C/15/Add.195. par. 26, 2002) that non-discrimination is not expressly guaranteed under the Basic Laws of the State party. The Committee also expresses its concern about the adoption of numerous discriminatory laws over the reporting period as pointed out notably by the Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (CERD/C/ISR/CO/14-16 pars. 11, 15, 16, 18, 27, 2012) and which affect primarily Palestinian children in all aspects of their life but also Arab Israeli, Bedouins, and Ethiopian children as well as children of migrant workers and asylum seekers. The Committee is deeply concerned that the establishment of separate means of transport and road services as well as the implementation of two seperate legal systems and institutions amount to de facto segregation and lead to inequality between Israeli and Palestinian children in the enjoyment of their rights."        These  laws and practices are the lynchpins of Apartheid in Palestine.     Here is that link to that UN Report again.        http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/9a...462f6cd01d9e31e485257b90004850d3?OpenDocument


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## HistoryBefore67 (Jul 1, 2013)

Instead of hyperbole, let's talk specifics, Sherri.

What specific rights are denied to non-Jewish children under the Basic Laws?  

In responding, please quote the laws themselves, as opposed to some secondary source or commentary.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jul 1, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> Instead of hyperbole, let's talk specifics, Sherri.
> 
> What specific rights are denied to non-Jewish children under the Basic Laws?
> 
> In responding, please quote the laws themselves, as opposed to some secondary source or commentary.



To start, here is one, the childrens military court system is the only one of its kind in our world and it sets forth different processes to treat children suspected of crimes when the child is a Palestinian child living in the Occupied West Bank versus an Israeli Jewish settler child.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jul 1, 2013)

UN report documents Israeli regime&#8217;s abuse and torture of Palestinian children

By Jean Shaoul*25 June 2013

The United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child (CRC) published areport*last week accusing Israel of committing abuses against Palestinian children, including torture, solitary confinement and threats of death and sexual assault in prisons.The committee&#8217;s 18 independent experts examined Israel&#8217;s record of compliance with a 1990 treaty as part of its regular review of a pact signed by all nations except Somalia and the United States. They obtained their evidence, which relates to the 10-year period from 2002, from other UN rights bodies, military sources and Israeli and Palestinian rights groups, including the Israeli soldiers&#8217; group Breaking the Silence.  UN report documents Israeli regime?s abuse and torture of Palestinian children - World Socialist Web Site

*Edited Fair Use*


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jul 1, 2013)

This is from another UN Report discussed and referenced  in Paragraph 21 of the  Report documenting abuses against the child. "11. The Committee notes with increased concern that Israeli society maintains Jewish and non-Jewish sectors, which raises issues under article 3 of the Convention.  See more at: http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/61F72B9D0D24D85E852579C1006545B9#sthash.Q9imQg7x.dpuf"Racial Discrimination Convention - Consideration of Israel's 14th to 16th periodic reports/Occupied Palestinian Territory, Jerusalem, Golan heights - CERD concluding observations (Adv. unedited version - excerpts) (9 March 2012)

*Edited Fair Use*


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## toastman (Jul 1, 2013)

Sherri, if you want people to read your posts, you need to structure them better. Posting one big paragraph is annoying to read. Just saying


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## Connery (Jul 1, 2013)

*Thread reopened*


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## HistoryBefore67 (Jul 1, 2013)

You have not answered my question, Sherri.

Please *quote the text* of the provisions of Israel's Basic Law that you believe to be discriminatory against non-Jewish children.

Here is a link to the Basic Laws: Basic Laws - Menu of Full Texts

I await your response.


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## Coyote (Jul 1, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> Instead of hyperbole, let's talk specifics, Sherri.
> 
> What specific rights are denied to non-Jewish children under the Basic Laws?
> 
> In responding, *please quote the laws themselves*, as opposed to some secondary source or commentary.



The problem with your demand is that it isn't necessarily the laws themselves - it's the fact that they are not enforced and that children are prosecuted in military courts.


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## toastman (Jul 1, 2013)

Coyote said:


> HistoryBefore67 said:
> 
> 
> > Instead of hyperbole, let's talk specifics, Sherri.
> ...



Coyote, I think his request for Sherri to cite the specific laws that Palestinians are discriminated against is a viable one. I am interested to see therm as well.


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## Coyote (Jul 1, 2013)

toastman said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > HistoryBefore67 said:
> ...



But in relation to the topic - what difference does it make?  I can not find much regarding specific military law, for example - and how they are handled in military courts.

Consider for example, a country like Russia which has laws on it's books for freedom of speech but which clearly aren't enforced. 

(disclaimer - this is not a comparison of Israel to Russia, merely an example)


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## HistoryBefore67 (Jul 1, 2013)

Coyote said:


> HistoryBefore67 said:
> 
> 
> > Instead of hyperbole, let's talk specifics, Sherri.
> ...



No, the problem is that Sherri attributed the supposed discriminatory practices to the Basic Laws but, when asked to substantiate those assertions with specific quotes to the text of the law, she remains silent.

I don't see why you feel the need to defend her.  If she is able to cite a portion of the law, we can discuss it.  If she has a specific example of unequal enforcement, we can discuss that as well.

If all she has is broad, sweeping, unsubstantiated accusations, then there is nothing to discuss.


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## Coyote (Jul 1, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > HistoryBefore67 said:
> ...



I'm not defending her - I'm questioning why the basic laws are relevant


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jul 1, 2013)

Coyote said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Racial Discrimination Convention - Consideration of Israel's 14th to 16th periodic reports/Occupied Palestinian Territory, Jerusalem, Golan heights - CERD concluding observations (Adv. unedited version - excerpts) (9 March 2012). Racist laws are identified by UN here.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jul 1, 2013)

Coyote said:


> HistoryBefore67 said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



The UN Report says the Basic Laws are faulty because they do not expressly gurantee non discrimination. They address this in their Report on children that is discussed in the OP. As far as the demand of a poster I prove that by quoting the law, I cannot quote something not in the law. The UN faults the Basic Laws for their failure to include a prohibition against discrimination In their provisions


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## HistoryBefore67 (Jul 1, 2013)

Coyote said:


> HistoryBefore67 said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



They're relevant because Sherri brought them up in a prior post.


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## HistoryBefore67 (Jul 1, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > HistoryBefore67 said:
> ...



Nope.  Sorry.  That's not an answer.

In fact, that's complete gibberish.  Laws (apart from specific provisions, such as Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, for example) don't generally "guarantee non-discrimination."  A law that, for example, estabishes a speed limit does not include language stating "these speed limits are applicable to all people, regardless of race, gender, etc."  So to criticize a general body of law for not specifying "non discrimination" is nonsense. 

If you can't either:

1.  Cite to a specific discriminatory provision in the law; or
2.  Cite to a specific example of a discriminatory application of the law,

then you are wasting our time.

I'm not interested in "_____ said so" responses.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jul 1, 2013)

toastman said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > HistoryBefore67 said:
> ...



Racial Discrimination Convention - Consideration of Israel's 14th to 16th periodic reports/Occupied Palestinian Territory, Jerusalem, Golan heights - CERD concluding observations (Adv. unedited version - excerpts) (9 March 2012)


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jul 1, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



That is what the UN says In their report on Israels violations of her treaty obligations under intl law with the respect to the treatment of children. I accept their findings. I conclude they have expertise with the law that you lack.
This is part of the lynchmarks of Apartheid and that is my words. Recap, the UN issued a report addressing Israels compliance with her treaty obligations under The Convention on the Rights Of the Child On June 14,  2013  The UN finds racist laws contribute to abuses against children. The Basic Laws are racist because they do not prohibit discrimination. And many specific racist laws have been  enacted. They are identified in a 2012 UN Report, paragraphs 11, 15, 16, 18  and 27.  http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/61F72B9D0D24D85E852579C1006545B9


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## HistoryBefore67 (Jul 1, 2013)

Okay, let's make a general rule so that we can stop wasting time.

If you post links, I won't read them. 

If you cut and paste from opinion pieces and "studies" from organizations with obvious agendas and biases, I won't read them.

If you tell me "because ____ said so," I'll disregard your comment.

If you want to tell me what you think, and provide specific examples to support your position, then I'm happy to discuss these issues with you.


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## MHunterB (Jul 1, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> UN report documents Israeli regimes abuse and torture of Palestinian children
> 
> By Jean Shaoul*25 June 2013
> 
> ...



I don't give any credence to the filth churned out by Marxist propaganda hate sites;  they're just a different group of fascists, is all.


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## toastman (Jul 1, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > UN report documents Israeli regimes abuse and torture of Palestinian children
> ...


Propaganda hate sites is all she has


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## Sweet_Caroline (Jul 1, 2013)

toastman said:


> MHunterB said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



Yup, Sherri really has to scrape the barrel now.


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## Kondor3 (Jul 1, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> "..._Empires certainly do rise and they certainly do fall,  we are watching one falling right now. The only question, is *when shall our end come?* That certainly shall be a day for celebration by many, in so many lands we have visited to attack and kill the innocent within. *I cant help but see some Justice in the future I know that shall be unfolding*_..."


That is about as close to saying "_I look forward to the fall of the United States of America_" as one can come without using those exact words and naming the country...

*I now know you for an enemy of our Country and its People*...

...as many here (_myself included_) have long-suspected, and I will conduct myself accordingly.


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## Kondor3 (Jul 1, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> "..._I don't give any credence to the filth churned out by Marxist propaganda hate sites;  they're just a different group of fascists, is all._"


Agreed.

I mean... really... "_*World Socialist Website*_"?


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## Kondor3 (Jul 1, 2013)

And, as a piece of pure extempore...

The Israelis are treating arrested Palestinian youth differently than arrested Israeli youth?

Really?

Now *there's* a big surprise!

Not.

I"m guessing it has a little something to do with the idea that arrested Palestinian youth are usually taken into custody for throwing rocks (and worse) at Israeli troops, and that they come from parts of the country that direct suicide bombing and indiscriminate rocket attacks against Israeli civilians, and that they oftentimes have first-hand knowledge of adult terrorists and 'enemy combatants' and their activities...

Whereas arrested Israeli youth are usually taken into custody for joy-rides and fistfights and rowdiness and the usual range of teenage angst.

Different ranges of offense and different environmental backgrounds require different response-strategies.

Or so it would seem to anyone with even a _lick_ of common sense, at first glance.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jul 1, 2013)

The UN is not a hate site. We are discussing a UN Report disclosing racist laws against children in Israel and Palestine, racist laws and practices that have resulted in disproportionate injuries and deaths to Palestinian children, hundreds of Palestinian children killed and thousands injured from Israels military operations (paragraph 25 of report), practices that subjected children to naval and air strikes in densely populated areas utilizing attack methods that violated the rules of proportionality and distinction ( paragraph 25 of UN Report), practices of Israel in shooting Palestinian children near the Gaza border while they collected building material to help their families rebuild their homes Israel destroyed- the UN reported 30 cases of killings like this over the reporting period, (par. 25 of report) Other findings of UN in Paragraph 25: Israeli settlers have continued to attack children, killing 4 children since 2008. Hundreds more have been injured. The UN notes not only does the IDF not stop these attacks, they often come and support the settlers in the attacks. The perpetrators of crimes against children are not punished and receive complete Impunity for their crimes. All of this is documented by the UN in Paragraph 25 of their report, a paragraph  entitled Right to life, survival and development.               Rights of Child Convention/Second to fourth periodic reports of Israel - Cttee on Rights of Child - Concluding observations (advance unedited version) (14 June 2013)


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jul 1, 2013)

The UN expresses concern about the devastating  impact on the right to life, survivival and development of children,   of the Wall and the Gaza Blockade imposed since 2007 and held by the IRC to be collective punishment.  Rights of Child Convention/Second to fourth periodic reports of Israel - Cttee on Rights of Child - Concluding observations (advance unedited version) (14 June 2013)


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## Coyote (Jul 1, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> And, as a piece of pure extempore...
> 
> The Israelis are treating arrested Palestinian youth differently than arrested Israeli youth?
> 
> ...



Israeli children throw rocks also.  When they're arrested, they are treated very differently from Palestinian children.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jul 1, 2013)

Paragraph 26 The UN Committee urges Israel to put an end to all killings and injuring of children  and comply with her obligations under intl law in targeting  lawfully in military operations complying with rules of Proportionality and Distinction,  to investigate crimes and punish those responsible, and to compensate victims. The Committee urges Israel to :  prevent further incidences of the use of excessive force in the use of live ammunition  (there is a reference to another UN Report here, A/HRC/19/20 para 52, 2011);  condemn violence of settlers and clearly impart it will not be tolerated and take steps to ensure public order and prevent further violence and hold those responsible for violence accountable; cease construction of the Wall and fully lift the Gaza Blockade and allow all necessary construction material into Gaza so the families can rebuild destroyed homes and the civilian  infrastructure Israel destroyed can be rebuilt. The UN Committee states this is necessary to insure respect for childrens right to housing and education and health and water and sanitation as recommended in another report, CERD/C/ISR/Co 14-16 para. 26, 2012. The UN Committee further states these steps would place Israel in compliance with her very own Israels Manual on the Laws of War (1998) that prohibits the conduct of a scorched earth policy "with a view to inflicting starvation or suffering on the civilian population. ". Rights of Child Convention/Second to fourth periodic reports of Israel - Cttee on Rights of Child - Concluding observations (advance unedited version) (14 June 2013)


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## Kondor3 (Jul 1, 2013)

Coyote said:


> _Israeli children throw rocks also. When they're arrested, they are treated very differently from Palestinian children._


Israeli (Jewish) children throw rocks at the IDF and their police? Maybe. Once in a blue-moon, on alternating Tuesdays, when our mothers are wearing green dresses or something. Rare, at best. And you are neglecting the 'wraparound' effect (their environment, their *motivation*, their brainwashing-indoctrination, the *scale* of the rock-throwing, and their potential for knowledge of terrorist activities). All of that spells 'different treatment' within the domain of common sense.


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## Coyote (Jul 1, 2013)

Settler children throw rocks at Palestinians and it's not a rare phenomenum.

I suppose your "domain of common sense" is little more than a double judicial standard designed to support abusing Palestinian children


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## Kondor3 (Jul 1, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Settler children throw rocks at Palestinians and it's not a rare phenomenum.
> 
> I suppose your "domain of common sense" is little more than a double judicial standard designed to support abusing Palestinian children


Oh, puh-leeze, Coyote...

On the one hand, we have youths taken into custody for throwing rocks at the Army and the Police...

On the other hand, you're talking about the kids of one faction throwing rocks at the other faction?

I know you can see the difference between attacking *Authority* and kids' gang-fights (or even throwing rocks at adults)...

It is only a question of whether or not you will acknowledge the difference and what that difference means in the treatment of youths taken into custody...

And, to further complicate matters, should we ask whether the Palestinians who are the targets of Israeli youth rock-throwing are innocent themselves?

Is it always Israeli youths who throw rocks at Palestinians first?

Or do Palestinians sometimes start the rock-throwing themselves?

I mean, after all, Palestinians - especially their youths - have *ALREADY* been brainwashed and trained to throw rocks at Israeli *ADULTS*, right?

Right down to their Television and Radio shows which, disgustingly, extol the virtues of Martyrdom and the Killing of Jews - brainwashing directed at their young, malleable minds and spirits - yes?

Somehow, I seriously doubt that the Palestinians are always in-the-right, and the wronged or injured party, when it comes to rock-throwing episodes between Palestinians and Israeli youth.

Somehow, I seriously doubt that *you* believe that, either.

If an Israeli youth (or gang of youths) are caught throwing rocks at Palestinians without good cause, they *should* be taken into custody, and charged.

But, given that they are not attacking Authority (the Army or Police) and given that they are not brainwashed by their government to attack the Palestinians without provocation and given that they do not have active knowledge of anti-government terrorist activity, their treatment is going to be quite different than the treated meted-out to someone who IS attacking Authority and who IS brainwashed to attack the government and who MAY have knowledge of anti-government terrorism activity.

There is not double-standard at work here... merely a sensible acknowledgment of the differences in environment and motivation and anti-government hostility and potential Intelligence value.


----------



## Coyote (Jul 1, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Settler children throw rocks at Palestinians and it's not a rare phenomenum.
> ...



The same standard of justice should apply to all ESPECIALLY children 

As far as being brainwashed....don't you think those settler children hate the Palestinians?  Why else would the adults amongst them be throwing stones at school children?


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## HistoryBefore67 (Jul 1, 2013)

Okay, Coyote....

In the last 10 years, how many incidents have there been involving stone-throwing by "Palestinian" children, and how many by Jewish children?

Of those incidents, what statistical data can you provide showing a disparity of treatment?

Are factors such as size of the rocks, who or what (i.e. moving cars) were thrown at, and age of the perpetrators relevant to the manner in which Israel has responded?

Please cite your sources.

Thank you.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jul 1, 2013)

Coyote said:


> "..._The same standard of justice should apply to all ESPECIALLY children_"


If you do not see the difference between frequent crowd attacks upon Authority and settler or street-gang attacks upon individuals, and if you cannot see the difference between a youth who has no knowledge of anti-government terrorism activity and a youth who MAY have knowledge of anti-government terrorism activity, then I cannot be of further help to you, in making such distinctions, or in explaining why different standards of treatment are applied, attributable to differences in Motivation-of and Targeting-by the rock-throwers.



> "..._As far as being brainwashed....don't you think those settler children hate the Palestinians? Why else would the adults amongst them be throwing stones at school children?_"



Oh, I have no illusions that Israeli settlers oftentimes come to hate their Palestinian neighbors nor that nor do I harbor illusions that such hate does not sometimes manifest itself as rock-throwing and other hateful and unneighborly actions, nor do I attempt to peddle such illusions, here or elsewhere. Heck, there are usually at least a couple of hundred incidents per year involving settlers, some their fault, some the fault of the Palestinians.

But that is a 'natural' outcome of stress on the Settlement Frontier - rightly or wrongly - and is NOT an intentional, organized, coordinated, scripted government-sponsored hate campaign directed against the Palestinians, translated into television and radio shows designed to brainwash the children as to the evils of their opposites and the righteousness and Godliness and merits of harming them and dying for The Cause.

Don't make me drag-out the obvious (video-clips of Palestinian children's TV programming) because we both know that will prove the point and highlight the differences far better than any bantering between you and I on that sidebar subject.


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## Coyote (Jul 1, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> Okay, Coyote....
> 
> In the last 10 years, how many incidents have there been involving stone-throwing by "Palestinian" children, and how many by Jewish children?



What difference does that make in regards to standards of justice?



> Of those incidents, what statistical data can you provide showing a disparity of treatment?
> 
> Are factors such as size of the rocks, who or what (i.e. moving cars) were thrown at, and age of the perpetrators relevant to the manner in which Israel has responded?
> 
> ...



I'm not going to waste my time playing this game HB67.  When I provide data and sourcese, you condemn them and claim "we have nothing to discuss".  It's a waste of time for me.


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## HistoryBefore67 (Jul 1, 2013)

You are under no obligation to respond, Coyote.  Of course, absent a response, I'm sure you'll understand that I won't put much stock in your "Israeli children throw rocks too" argument.


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## Coyote (Jul 1, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > "..._The same standard of justice should apply to all ESPECIALLY children_"
> ...



When it comes to CHILDREN - they should not be treated as adults.  They should not be forceably taken, denied access to their parents or legal help, forced to sign confessions in a language that isn't their own.  At the very least they should have access to the same legal protections as Jewish children.



> > "..._As far as being brainwashed....don't you think those settler children hate the Palestinians? Why else would the adults amongst them be throwing stones at school children?_"
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You don't think a good bit of the Palestinian children  throwing stones is a "'natural' outcome of stress on the Settlement Frontier"?  You categorize it all as a brainwashed behavior?  When you broadbrush it like that - what is there to discuss?



> Don't make me drag-out the obvious (video-clips of Palestinian children's TV programming) because we both know that will prove the point and highlight the differences far better than any bantering between you and I on that sidebar subject.



They prove no point - they don't excuse the differing standards of justice for children.


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## HistoryBefore67 (Jul 1, 2013)

You have not proven that a "differing standard of justice" exists.  All you've given us is the unfounded accusations that have been made against Israel, devoid of any context or any comparator.


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## Coyote (Jul 1, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> You are under no obligation to respond, Coyote.  Of course, absent a response, I'm sure you'll understand that I won't put much stock in your "Israeli children throw rocks too" argument.



That is fine with me HB67, you have a habit of demanding sources and then ignoring them whilst providing little in return.  I seriously doubt you would put much stock in any of my arguments so nothing wasted for either of us


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## HistoryBefore67 (Jul 1, 2013)

Coyote said:


> HistoryBefore67 said:
> 
> 
> > You are under no obligation to respond, Coyote.  Of course, absent a response, I'm sure you'll understand that I won't put much stock in your "Israeli children throw rocks too" argument.
> ...



I'm glad you find the defamation of an entire nation to be something to smile about.


----------



## Coyote (Jul 1, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> You have not proven that a "differing standard of justice" exists.  All you've given us is the unfounded accusations that have been made against Israel, devoid of any context or any comparator.



Those accusations have been made and backed up in UN, UNICEF and human rights reports.  *Why should I repeat what has already been said and categorically denounced as "unfounded" hate mongering?  *  You will not accept any of the sources nor address any of the points made in them.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Jul 1, 2013)

Coyote said:


> HistoryBefore67 said:
> 
> 
> > Okay, Coyote....
> ...



I won't ignore your sources.  Can you show any?


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## Coyote (Jul 1, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > HistoryBefore67 said:
> ...



What hyperbole.


----------



## HistoryBefore67 (Jul 1, 2013)

Coyote said:


> HistoryBefore67 said:
> 
> 
> > You have not proven that a "differing standard of justice" exists.  All you've given us is the unfounded accusations that have been made against Israel, devoid of any context or any comparator.
> ...



No, the accusations are not "backed up" in any report.  Rather, those reports merely repeat the unfounded accusations made by "Palestinians."

I hate to be the one to break this to you, but the "Palestinians" routinely lie and exaggerate in an effort to make Israel look like a bully and to make themselves look like an innocent victim.  There are countless examples of this, including doctored and staged photographs.

So, no... you have not provided a credible "source" of anything.  And, to make matters worse, you make categorical assertions (i.e. "Israeli children throw rocks too") and then provide NOTHING to back up your statements.


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## jodylee (Jul 1, 2013)

Lipush said:


> I believe whoever this has to do with should check it up and bring out their results



you mean, you wont comment until the Israeli truth machine has found a way round it with semantics and lies. Israeli's are WORSE than Nazi's


----------



## Coyote (Jul 1, 2013)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > HistoryBefore67 said:
> ...




In response to your specific questions:

_Of those incidents, what statistical data can you provide showing a disparity of treatment?_

I don't have specific statistical data - but general accounts such as news articles etc.  I'm not even sure such data is openly available.

What I have for example, is this Mass arrest of Palestinian children on their way to school in Hebron ? at least 5 under the age of criminal responsibility | B'Tselem which specifically notes that there are different standards at play:

_The Israeli Youth Law requires that a parent or adult be present during the interrogation of child suspects. The law does not formally apply to Palestinians in the occupied territories, who are subject to Israeli military law, but the military court has recommended that the relevant provisions be taken into account in all dealings with Palestinian children._



> Are factors such as size of the rocks, who or what (i.e. moving cars) were thrown at, and age of the perpetrators relevant to the manner in which Israel has responded?



There is no specific information I can find that answers that.


----------



## Coyote (Jul 1, 2013)

jodylee said:


> Lipush said:
> 
> 
> > I believe whoever this has to do with should check it up and bring out their results
> ...



No, I think she is saying it needs to be investigated.


----------



## Kondor3 (Jul 1, 2013)

Coyote said:


> "_When it comes to CHILDREN - they should not be treated as adults_..."


I agree completely.

Perhaps the Palestinians should not have begun utilizing children as suicide bombers ( Child suicide bombers in the Israeli?Palestinian conflict - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) and changing the game.



> "..._They should not be forceably taken, denied access to their parents_..."


When a minor is taken into custody, it is always forcible, and those minors are, at least for some time during the early going, denied access to their parents. This happens everywhere, including the United States.



> "..._or legal help, forced to sign confessions in a language that isn't their own_..."



Agreed. This should not be happening, and it does happen, sometimes. I, for one, write that off as expediency under pseudo-wartime conditions, but it is an uncomfortable write-off, I will concede that much.



> "..._At the very least they should have access to the same legal protections as Jewish children._"



Agreed. Again, I find myself obliged to write that off to the expediences of (psuedo-) war.



> "..._You don't think a good bit of the Palestinian children throwing stones is a 'natural' outcome of stress on the Settlement Frontier'?_..."



Yes, I do. I have never believed nor stated otherwise.



> "..._You categorize it all as a brainwashed behavior? When you broadbrush it like that - what is there to discuss?_..."



When one side (the Palestinian Government) routinely indoctrinates their young people with hatred and its trappings, it becomes all-but-impossible to separate activity that stems from such brainwashing, from activity that is free of such influences.

When one side (the Palestinian Government) routinely indoctrinates like that - when such indoctrination routinely and intentionally sets the stage for such activity - then it has only itself to blame, for leaving others with no choice BUT to paint with a broad brush.

But you're right... it makes it difficult to separate or distinguish activities motivated or influenced by such Palestinian Government -sponsored brainwashing and activities not so motivated or influenced.

But the Palestinians are the ones who muddy those waters with their brainwashing of children, not their adversaries, and, consequently, it is their cause which suffers from an inability to put down the broad brush.



> "..._They prove no point - they don't excuse the differing standards of justice for children._"



Ahhhhh... but those videos *DO* prove a point.

They prove that the Palestinians routinely indoctrinate their young with hatred for the Jews of Israel and instill in them the idea that Martyrdom in the Palestinian Cause is actually Martrydom in the Cause of God.

That translates into a far more hate-filled and hostile mindset attributable to the average Palestinian youth being arrested, vis-a-vis the average Israeli youth so arrested.

Combine that hatred and martyrdom-complex mindset with potential knowledge of terror activity and participants, and you have a common-sense recipe for different treatment.

I, too, believe that, in the end, Palestinian children should enjoy the same legal rights and protections as Israeli children, with respect to arrest and processing and prosecution.

But the sporadic war that exists between the Israelis and Palestinians, and the differences in indoctrination and loyalty, citizenship status and jurisdiction, etc., all serve to create and sustain differences, driven by both common sense and the needs of the day.

In a perfect world, where all of the lions and lambs lay down together, and there was peace in the valley, and one side was not teaching its children that Martyrdom in the killing of Jews was something that pleased God and that God would reward... in such a perfect world, there would, indeed, be no difference in treatment or in access to legal services.

They don't live in that perfect world, like you and I do, so they do the best they can, I suppose. Just because you or the UN does not approve and thinks they should do better and differently, does not mean that you or the UN are right, in believing that any such thing can be achieved, from a practical perspective.


----------



## Coyote (Jul 1, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > HistoryBefore67 said:
> ...



You don't like the source so you categorically label them unfounded.



> I hate to be the one to break this to you, but the "Palestinians" routinely lie and exaggerate in an effort to make Israel look like a bully and to make themselves look like an innocent victim.  There are countless examples of this, including doctored and staged photographs.



Sure they do.  And the IDF also lies to cover up the abuses that occur under their jurisdiction.  



> So, no... you have not provided a credible "source" of anything.



Like I said - it's a waste of time to debate with you, you don't accept anything critical of Israel as "credible" and label it "defemation of an entire nation"  (a categorical assertion eh?).



> And, to make matters worse, you make categorical assertions (i.e. "Israeli children throw rocks too") and then provide NOTHING to back up your statements.



It's been well documented that the settler children and adults throw rocks at Palestinians.  Are you claiming they don't?  If so - then truly, there is no sense in discussion.


----------



## jodylee (Jul 1, 2013)

Coyote said:


> jodylee said:
> 
> 
> > Lipush said:
> ...



it was investigated, the whole report is an investigation. report is another word for investigation. I refer you to my previous answer


----------



## HistoryBefore67 (Jul 1, 2013)

This is from IDF's statement on the incident (emphasis added):


> On the morning of March 20, 2013, following *near daily rock throwing* at civilians passing by and security forces positioned in the area, the perpetrators of the rock throwing were apprehended and detained during such an incident.* 27 were detained, of whom 7 were transferred to the police and 20 were released*.



So the "mass arrest" was actually 27 detainees and 7 who were actually transferred to the police.

Here's another fact for you: since 2000, 6 Israelis have been killed by rocks thrown by "Palestinians."

Have Israeli children thrown rocks too?  Actually, yes... and they too have been arrested.  For example, in May, five Israeli children (ages 9-11) were arrested for throwing rocks at Arabs.  Like the 20 "Palestinians," four were released.  The fifth is facing criminal prosecution.

Of course, I'd wager that the ratio of "Palestinian" rock throwing incidents to Israeli rock throwing incidents is probably in the neighborhood of 1,000 to 1, but you don't seem to care about that.

Suffice to say, the portrayal of Israel in this respect has been overblown, exaggerated and, in some regards, fabricated.


----------



## Coyote (Jul 1, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > "_When it comes to CHILDREN - they should not be treated as adults_..."
> ...



The use of children as suicide bombers is contemptable and condemned by the same organizations that are condemning Israel for it's abuses.

However - two wrongs don't make a right nor do I see how that is relevant to brutally taking young children from their homes at night, hand cuffing them and subjecting them to torture, seperating them from their parents and any legal help, questioning them in and forcing them to sign a confession in a language they don't understand.



> > "..._They should not be forceably taken, denied access to their parents_..."
> 
> 
> When a minor is taken into custody, it is always forcible, and those minors are, at least for some time during the early going, denied access to their parents. This happens everywhere, including the United States.



It's not legal.  That's the point.  In the US it is not legal to question a minor without parents or guardian.  As far as "forcible" no, it's not always forcible - it does not always involve brutal treatment - not when you are talking 8-12 yr olds.


----------



## Coyote (Jul 1, 2013)

jodylee said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > jodylee said:
> ...



The one where you say "Israeli's are WORSE than Nazi's"?


----------



## Kondor3 (Jul 1, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


We agree here, in principle, but, when one wrong (Palestinian child suicide bombing) involves KILLING, and one wrong (Israeli treatment of minors) involves DIFFERENCES IN POST-ARREST TREATMENT, well, I, personally, tend to be more understanding of the latter.

I also find myself wondering whether the Israelis formerly treated arrested Palestinian minors better, *BEFORE* the Palestinians began using their own children as living time-bombs?


----------



## Coyote (Jul 1, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> This is from IDF's statement on the incident (emphasis added):
> 
> 
> > On the morning of March 20, 2013, following *near daily rock throwing* at civilians passing by and security forces positioned in the area, the perpetrators of the rock throwing were apprehended and detained during such an incident.* 27 were detained, of whom 7 were transferred to the police and 20 were released*.
> ...



In 13 years, only 6?  

In the US, juveniles were involved in at least 766 murders in 2010, and represented about 8% of all known murder offenders.  Of those offenders a disproportionate amount are black. 

Would then justify a different standard of treatment or justice for black offenders?


----------



## Kondor3 (Jul 1, 2013)

Coyote said:


> "..._Would then justify a different standard of treatment or justice for black offenders?_"


The last I heard, American Black children are not being indoctrinated with the idea that killing American Whites is Gods' work and that they will go to Paradise if they die while doing so.

The last I heard, American Blacks were not manifestly hostile to their government and looking to drive American Whites into the ocean.


----------



## HistoryBefore67 (Jul 1, 2013)

Coyote said:


> In 13 years, only 6?



What a disgusting comment.  How many parents, sibilings, spouses, children and friends have you lost in the last 13 years to random acts of violence?  It must be a big number for you to think that 6 murdered civilians warrants a "so what" response.  



> In the US, juveniles were involved in at least 766 murders in 2010, and represented about 8% of all known murder offenders.  Of those offenders a disproportionate amount are black.



How is that possible relevant to this discussion?



> Would then justify a different standard of treatment or justice for black offenders?



Ah, there's your non-sequitur.  

I'm not even going to dignify that tripe with a response.


----------



## toastman (Jul 1, 2013)

Coyote said:


> HistoryBefore67 said:
> 
> 
> > This is from IDF's statement on the incident (emphasis added):
> ...



That's 6 too many. The only reason it's not much higher is because has taken security measures to protect her citizens via the security fence, bomb shelters, alarms and the Iron Dome. 
When discussing launching rockets into civilian populations, we shouldn't look at the death/injury toll, but instead the intention of the act. I think we all know the intention of Hamas when launching rockets. To kill civilians and disrupt daily life in Israel.


----------



## Coyote (Jul 1, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > In 13 years, only 6?
> ...



No, it's not a "so what" response.  It's a proportionate response.



> > In the US, juveniles were involved in at least 766 murders in 2010, and represented about 8% of all known murder offenders.  Of those offenders a disproportionate amount are black.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's not a non-sequitur. It ties in directly to a dual standard of justice.


----------



## Coyote (Jul 1, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > "..._Would then justify a different standard of treatment or justice for black offenders?_"
> ...



We're talking about children.  Not adults.


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## HistoryBefore67 (Jul 1, 2013)

Coyote said:


> HistoryBefore67 said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Congratulations!

You just made the "not worth talking to" list.


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## Coyote (Jul 1, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Kondor3 said:
> ...



I don't and the reason is once you start feeling that way you start making excuses for it or legitimizing it rather than seeking better means of handling children being arrested or trying to make the system equal across the board - which it should be.


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## Coyote (Jul 1, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > HistoryBefore67 said:
> ...



I'm crushed.


----------



## Sweet_Caroline (Jul 1, 2013)

Coyote said:


> HistoryBefore67 said:
> 
> 
> > This is from IDF's statement on the incident (emphasis added):
> ...



Here are two of the, in your words, "only six."  Murdered by rock throwing arabs whilst their car was driving at speed.

Deaths of Asher and Yonatan Palmer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia






And this sweetheart is still in a coma from when the car she was travelling in with her mother and siblings had a rock thrown at it last March.  Her name is Adele Bitton.






Please Coyote, do not trivialize the deaths of Jews having rocks thrown at them, particularly with the extra strength and unexpectedness of a rock being thrown at a car travelling at speed along the road.



.


----------



## HistoryBefore67 (Jul 1, 2013)

toastman said:


> HB67, I disagree with you deciding to cease talking with Coyote. Just because you disagree with her posts, doesn't mean you guys can't converse. I disagree with some things she says too, but she's one of the only pro - Palestinians here who I see as non biased. She's made a lot of criticisms towards the Palestinians as well as their supporters here on this board . Just my thought. Sorry for butting in



Agree to disagree on that one.

I have no interest in her double-standards, lack of factual support for broad, sweeping conclusions, and hypocritical downplaying of Jewish deaths.  

I've got better things to do with my time.


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## Coyote (Jul 1, 2013)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > HistoryBefore67 said:
> ...



My intention is not to trivialize it but to keep it from being a diversion from the real issue at hand which is the treatment of Palestinian children in the Israeli justice system.

You don't avenge those deaths by brutalizing children in response.

You do realize, to, don't you - that Palestinians have also lost children and family members due to IDF responses or settlers shooting them?  It's an endless cycle and easy to find fault but none of it should be used to justify what is done on either side whether it's rockets or legal brutality.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Jul 1, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Considering Israel is fighting for its country's survival against people out to annihilate its citizens, I do not take kindly to people trivializing the deaths of its citizens whilst they are driving in cars, not expecting rocks to be thrown at them whilst driving at speed.  A totally unexpected situation.


.


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## Coyote (Jul 1, 2013)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> Considering Israel is fighting for its country's survival against people out to annihilate its citizens, I do not take kindly to people trivializing the deaths of its citizens whilst they are driving in cars, not expecting rocks to be thrown at them whilst driving at speed.  A totally unexpected situation.
> 
> 
> .



I don't take kindly to injustice or the brutal treatment of children by those in authority.


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## Kondor3 (Jul 1, 2013)

Coyote said:


> "..._I don't take kindly to injustice or the brutal treatment of children by those in authority._"


As a stand-alone statement...

Every so often, a glimpse of common ground...


----------



## SherriMunnerlyn (Jul 1, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> > Considering Israel is fighting for its country's survival against people out to annihilate its citizens, I do not take kindly to people trivializing the deaths of its citizens whilst they are driving in cars, not expecting rocks to be thrown at them whilst driving at speed. A totally unexpected situation.
> ...



Those illegal settler war criminal parents should stop placing their childrens lives in danger as they are. They are not fit to be parents. THOSE poor children!


----------



## Sweet_Caroline (Jul 1, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Sweet_Caroline said:
> ...




*Quote Tags fixed - theDoc*

First of all the settlers are not illegal.  I have proved that to you time and time again but you just choose to ignore the facts.  

Secondly the settlers as you call them were simply driving along the road when murdered by your arab friends.  So if you really care about children you should get your facts and priorities straight.


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## Indofred (Jul 1, 2013)

The argument seems to be; it's okay to brutalise Palestinian kids because six Israel kids have also been hurt.
Not much of an argument.

The thread is about Israeli government/IDF crimes and opinions about those crimes; not justification because six Israeli kids have been hurt over a span of 13 years.

Yes, children being hurt is always bad news but the fact a few have been hurt on one side is hardly excuse for hurting kids on the other.

That shows what sort of nasty people are posting on here.


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## toastman (Jul 1, 2013)

Indofred said:


> The argument seems to be; it's okay to brutalise Palestinian kids because six Israel kids have also been hurt.
> Not much of an argument.
> 
> The thread is about Israeli government/IDF crimes and opinions about those crimes; not justification because six Israeli kids have been hurt over a span of 13 years.
> ...



You lied again. No one is making the claim that you say.

IF there is anyone nasty here, it's Sherri. But I think calling her 'nasty' is being nice to her. She's worse than that .


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## Kondor3 (Jul 1, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > I don't take kindly to injustice or the brutal treatment of children by those in authority.
> ...


One helluva lot better parents than those bottom-feeder scum-sucking _Palestinian_ parents who allow their children to become *suicide bombers*, my little pro-Palestinian propaganda shill and fifth-columnist.

Oh, and, based upon your response earlier today ( http://www.usmessageboard.com/israel-and-palestine/299255-palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-u-n-35.html#post7464146  )...

I should _probably_ add '_America-Hater_' as well.


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## Hossfly (Jul 1, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > _Israeli children throw rocks also. When they're arrested, they are treated very differently from Palestinian children._
> ...


Speaking of rocks...........
Popular actress stoned in Samaria - Israel Today | Israel News

Isn't it great though how posters can continually blabber on about Palestinian children being tortured but they are not on other forums condemning the horrendous torture of children and others in Muslim prisons?  I guess when the Jews are not involved, it is very easy for them to close their eyes to what is happening to people, including children, elsewhere.  I wonder if Frau Sherri can inform us what the UN has to say about this.
Ahmadinejad's Imam: Rape is OK - Defense/Middle East - News - Israel National News


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jul 1, 2013)

Paragraph 29 of UN Report entitled Civil rights and freedom Birth registration/Nationality. The Committee, noting that the Population Registry Law establishes a duty to register births, addresses shortcomings here. The Committee states there are thousands of unregistered Palestinian children who are being denied access to health services and education and other social benefits and thousands of children are being prevented from living with their parents. This has resulted from Israels ban on the granting of Israeli citizenship to children born of an Israeli parent and a parent from the OPT, the ceasing by Israel of acting upon residency applications for Palestinian children since 2000, as well as the arbitrary revocation of residency and identity of those living in East Jerusalem.  In addition, the Committee notes that children of migrants born in Israel often do not even receive an official birth certificate but just a hand written notification without the fathers name even set forth on it. If migrant families cannot afford to have their children born in hospitals, they dont even get a hand written notification documenting the childs birth. In addition, it has been reported migrant workers have been required to pay exhorbitant costs for DNA tests to get the fathers name added to the hand written notifications of birth.  The Committee urges Israel to repeal all laws that result in denying the right of Palestinian children to be registered immediately after birth in violation of the Convention. The Committee urges Israel to transfer the population registry for Palestinians to the Palestinian Authority. The Committtee urges Israel to issue free birth certificates to migrant parents, that sets forth names of both parents, as is done for Israeli parents. The Committee states the State should not make parents sign voluntary return declarations as a condition to being issued a birth certificate.     Racial Discrimination Convention - Consideration of Israel's 14th to 16th periodic reports/Occupied Palestinian Territory, Jerusalem, Golan heights - CERD concluding observations (Adv. unedited version - excerpts) (9 March 2012)


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jul 1, 2013)

Paragraph 35 of UN Reporf, pg 9-  Entitled Violence against children Torture and other cruel or degrading treatment or punishment.  The Committee expresses deep concern about the reported practice of torture and ill treatment of Palestinian children arrested and prosecuted and detained by the military and police. Despite repeated concerns expressed by treaty bodies and special procedures mandate holders and UN organizations,  the practice continues. The Committee is concerned about the practice of Israel of routinely arresting children in the middle of the night by soldiers entering houses and shouting and hand tying and blind folding children who are taken away to unknown destinations without even being allowed to say goodbye to their parents. The Committee expresses deep concern over children systematically being subjected to physical and verbal violence and humiliation and painful restraints and hooding of the head and face in a sack, and children being threatened with death and physical violence and sexual assault against themselves or members of their family and restricted access to toilet and food and water.  These practices are perpetrated from the time of arrest, during transfer and interrogation,  to obtain a confession and also on an arbitrary basis subsequently as well as during pre trial detention. The UN Committee is also deeply concerned about  hildren held in solitary confinement,  sometimes for months.  The Committee points out these practices violate not only article 37 of the Convention but also violate constitute a grave breach of Article  32 of the Fourth Geneva Convention.  (Grave breaches of the Fourth Geneva Convention are war crimes) The Committee urges Israel to remove all children from solitary confinement,  investigate all alleged cases of torture, ensure there are adequate complaint mechanisms in place, ensure there are investigations of torture allegations, ensure physical and psychological recovery to victims of abuse.   Racial Discrimination Convention - Consideration of Israel's 14th to 16th periodic reports/Occupied Palestinian Territory, Jerusalem, Golan heights - CERD concluding observations (Adv. unedited version - excerpts) (9 March 2012)


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## Sweet_Caroline (Jul 2, 2013)

*The Quote tags have been fixed. Move on.

- theDoc*


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jul 2, 2013)

We see the UN discuss deliberate Israeli crimes against the child when they addrees the torture and abuse against the Palestinian child.. Torture and abuse is ongoing and Israel continues despite repeated calls by the intl community to stop these war crimes.


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## HistoryBefore67 (Jul 2, 2013)

All I see are accusations.  Still waiting for credible evidence.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jul 2, 2013)

I was just reading an article written about a doctors experiences and observations about Gaza, he worked in Gaza providing medical aid to the people there doing Cast Lead. He speaks about the children, like a little girl  evacuated out of Gaza in January 2009, named Samar 'Abd Rabbo. She was the little girl who the IDF shot in the back, as her two sisters were  killed on the spot. She was sent to Brussels for rehabilitation, and is paralyzed from the nipples down. He says other children are staying behind in Gaza,  needing rehabilitation. He points out Gaza has a population now of 1.6 million people and 60%, approximately, are 18 and below. In 2012, he speaks of the lack of psychosocial and psychological rehabilitation mas perhaps being one of "the most devastating effects of the very deliberate, very cynical, very in detail, planned siege of Gaza." *Dr. Mads Gilbert has described his experience in Gaza during Cast Lead as "the &#8220;most horrific experience&#8221; of his life, a grim honor previously held by Israel's 1982 invasion of Lebanon, which Gilbert also witnessed." Gilbert spent over two weeks as one of the only foreign doctors in Gaza during Operation Cast Lead, and worked at Shifa Hospital in Gaza City. He told the grandfather ofJumana Samouni he was going to the US when he was in Gaza And asked what do you want me to say to them there and he was told,  &#8220;tell them your tax money is killing us.&#8221;   Mads Gilbert, eyewitness to 'Cast Lead', says Gaza remains besieged and 'shattered'


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jul 2, 2013)

Israel deliberately tortures and abuses Palestinian children. Day in and day out, these war crimes continue. The reporting period of the UN Report being discussed is ten years. This deliberate torture and abuse of the child has been ongoing and continuous for year after year in Israels Occupation of Palestine and has been pointed out over and over and over in reports,  pointed out by numerous NGOs and human rights groups and UN organizations. No matter how many reports that keep being written, Israel will not stop these deliberate war crimes against the child.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jul 2, 2013)




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## HistoryBefore67 (Jul 2, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Israel deliberately tortures and abuses Palestinian children. Day in and day out, these war crimes continue. The reporting period of the UN Report being discussed is ten years. This deliberate torture and abuse of the child has been ongoing and continuous for year after year in Israels Occupation of Palestine and has been pointed out over and over and over in reports,  pointed out by numerous NGOs and human rights groups and UN organizations. No matter how many reports that keep being written, Israel will not stop these deliberate war crimes against the child.



We get it, Sherri... YOU HAVE NO FACTS, so you just keep repeating your unproven accusations, mischaracterizations of "studies," and propaganda.  You add NOTHING to advance an intelligent discussion.  All you do is defame Israel and condone the actions of the true terrorists and the true abusers of children - the "Palestinians" (most notably, Hamas).


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jul 2, 2013)




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## toastman (Jul 2, 2013)

Sherri and her propaganda videos, it;s all she's got.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Jul 2, 2013)

These youths and other similar youth who commit crimes need to be interrogated to find out who set them up.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqHsjlZ1c6I]Israeli TV - 14 year old Suicide Bomber - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOVhTFOPKxc&list=PL3D6CBC11C289DB0F]Suicide Bomber Caught at Israeli Checkpoint - YouTube[/ame]


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jul 2, 2013)

Israel is accused of abusing Palestinian children&#8211; again

"Today, the U.N. Committee*on the Rights of the Child**accused Israeli forces of torturing Palestinian children.The report (pdf)comes within a year of three other reports: a*UNICEF reporton children in military detention last winter; a British report of a year ago,Children in Military Custody, which gained*wide attention*for its assertion that Israel was torturing children by holding them "routinely and for substantial periods in solitary confinement;" and*this Breaking the Silence report*last summer on Israeli soldiers' abuses of Palestinian children, which included many reports of children getting beaten "to a pulp.""  *Israel is accused of abusing Palestinian children-- again.  There are weekly reports of torture and abuse, too.  Is there enough paper to write down all the abuses against the child Israel carries out?


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jul 2, 2013)




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## RoccoR (Jul 2, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn,  _et al,_

All wars have horror stories.  There is nothing worse than the tragedy suffered by the innocent; especially children.  It is an expected, if unintended consequence of conflict. 



SherriMunnerlyn said:


> I was just reading an article written about a doctors experiences and observations about Gaza, he worked in Gaza providing medical aid to the people there doing Cast Lead. He speaks about the children, like a little girl  evacuated out of Gaza in January 2009, named Samar 'Abd Rabbo. She was the little girl who the IDF shot in the back, as her two sisters were  killed on the spot. She was sent to Brussels for rehabilitation, and is paralyzed from the nipples down. He says other children are staying behind in Gaza,  needing rehabilitation. He points out Gaza has a population now of 1.6 million people and 60%, approximately, are 18 and below. In 2012, he speaks of the lack of psychosocial and psychological rehabilitation mas perhaps being one of "the most devastating effects of the very deliberate, very cynical, very in detail, planned siege of Gaza." *Dr. Mads Gilbert has described his experience in Gaza during Cast Lead as "the most horrific experience of his life, a grim honor previously held by Israel's 1982 invasion of Lebanon, which Gilbert also witnessed."


*(COMMENT)*

That is an interesting observation.  Only 40% of the population is adult?

Age Structure[edit]

0-14 years: 44.7% (male 343,988/female 325,856)
15-64 years: 52.7% (male 403,855/female 386,681)
65 years and over: 2.7% (male 16,196/female 23,626) (2008 est.)

The "lack of psychosocial and psychological rehabilitation" has been an auxiliary factor for most wars in history.  It has only been in the last century that consideration was even given any real attention; and that only on the margin.



SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Gilbert spent over two weeks as one of the only foreign doctors in Gaza during Operation Cast Lead, and worked at Shifa Hospital in Gaza City. He told the grandfather of Jumana Samouni he was going to the US when he was in Gaza And asked what do you want me to say to them there and he was told,  tell them your tax money is killing us.


*(COMMENT)*

Yes, this is a double edge sword:  tell them your tax money is killing us.

There are very few wars that don't result in death and destruction; and the heart breaking stories - like the one illuminated here.  But having said that, the Operation Cast Lead was less than a month in duration, with a clear military objective of interdicting rocket fire into Israel and curtailing illicit small arms and light weapons traffic.

The proximate cause of the particular operation was rocket fire and illicit weapons trafficking; and that was in the hands of the Gazian.  


Who bought the rockets?
Who was trafficking in small arms and light weapons?

The elimination of these two factors as a cause, would have also eliminated the consequence of Operation Cast Lead.

Most Respectfully,
R


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jul 2, 2013)




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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jul 2, 2013)

RoccoR said:


> SherriMunnerlyn,  _et al,_
> 
> All wars have horror stories.  There is nothing worse than the tragedy suffered by the innocent; especially children.  It is an expected, if unintended consequence of conflict.
> 
> ...



Nothing you write justifies Israels deliberate abuses of and torture of the Palestinian child. These are not accidental and unfortunate occurences, they are deliberate and intentional acts designed to hurt and abuse and violate legal rights and human rights of the child. We have a population in Gaza that is over 60 percent of which is children. We watched Cast Lead and we watched deliberate attacks on this civilian population and on these children. 344 children were deliberstely massacred by the IDF in CL, there is no justificatiom for that.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Jul 2, 2013)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1b2QhQQpHck&list=PL9E476573C29E7B93]Australian in Palestine account of children suicide bombers - YouTube[/ame]


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jul 2, 2013)

RAMALLAH, 11 June 2009] &#8211; "Today, DCI-Palestine is releasing a*report*which documents the widespread ill-treatment and torture of Palestinian children at the hands of the Israeli army and police force &#8211;*Palestinian Child Prisoners: The systematic and institutionalised ill-treatment and torture of Palestinian children by Israeli authorities.The release of the report comes just days after an*article*was published in*The Independent newspaper reporting the testimonies of two Israeli soldiers which detail the deliberate abuse of Palestinian children. One soldier is reported as saying that in an incident that occurred in a Palestinian village in March, he saw a lot of soldiers &#8216;just knee (Palestinians) because it's boring, because you stand there for 10 hours, you&#8217;re not doing anything, so they beat people." This report concludes  this widespread/systematic abuse  occurs with Impunity;  600 complaints were made for alleged ill-treatment/ torture, and there was not a single criminal investigation  ever conducted. And disturbingly, the report finds  illegally obtained confessions are regularly used as evidence in the military courts to convict around 700 Palestinian children every year with the most common charge against these children being for throwing stones. Once sentenced, the children who gave these testimonies were mostly imprisoned inside Israel in violation of The Fourth Geneva Convention and were unlawfully denied family visits and  education. http://www.dci-pal.org/english/display.cfm?DocId=1162&CategoryId=1


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jul 2, 2013)

I just have to laugh at all this Hasbara Propaganda about suicide bombers. They stopped years ago and your video is  a Zionist Hasbara  lie . Deal with Today and Israels deliberate war crimes against children in Palestine.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Jul 2, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> I just have to laugh at all this Hasbara Propaganda about suicide bombers. They stopped years ago and your video is  a Zionist Hasbara  lie . Deal with Today and Israels deliberate war crimes against children in Palestine.



The wall and checkpoints have minimized them together with extremely stringent security measures.  After all Israel's main responsibility is to look after its citizens, both Jewish and Muslim.  

What you don't understand though is the real cruelty is coming from those childrens' own communities using them as a means to attack soldiers and citizens and then crying "foul" when the children are taken into questioning to find out who put them up to the crimes.  

I have yet to find proof about any claims you have posted Sherri, so it is not surprising you are ignored.


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## MHunterB (Jul 2, 2013)

Indofred said:


> The argument seems to be; it's okay to brutalise Palestinian kids because six Israel kids have also been hurt.
> Not much of an argument.
> 
> The thread is about Israeli government/IDF crimes and opinions about those crimes; not justification because six Israeli kids have been hurt over a span of 13 years.
> ...



Since no supporter of Israel in this thread has suggested what you are claiming they have stated - it actually shows what kinds of foul turds are floating about the cesspit of your own mind, nobody else's.

Perhaps if you weren't so married  malignant meme that 'Zionism is racism', you might be able to see that?


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jul 2, 2013)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > I just have to laugh at all this Hasbara Propaganda about suicide bombers. They stopped years ago and your video is  a Zionist Hasbara  lie . Deal with Today and Israels deliberate war crimes against children in Palestine.
> ...



I cannot open the eyes of blind Zionist holding their eyes deliberately tightly shut so they do not see Zionist crimes . The torture and other abuses against children is well documented. And if I were really being ignored, as you claim, then you would not be here responding to my posts. The UN Committee calls The Wall itself a crime against children. The Wall itself is a big part of Israels lynchpins of Apartheid.


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## HistoryBefore67 (Jul 2, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> . And if I were really being ignored, as you claim, then you would not be here responding to my posts.



Ah... now I understand Sherri's motivation.  She wants attention.

I think its time we start withholding that from her.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jul 2, 2013)




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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jul 2, 2013)

I think Israel is who wants attention. The abuse of the chid is a cry for attention that never ceases. 24/7 the abuses continue forward.


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## Coyote (Jul 2, 2013)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > I just have to laugh at all this Hasbara Propaganda about suicide bombers. They stopped years ago and your video is  a Zionist Hasbara  lie . Deal with Today and Israels deliberate war crimes against children in Palestine.
> ...



The real cruelty is people in authority misusing children - whether it's Hamas using them as suicide bombers or Israel brutalizing them in their justice system.

What I don't understand is your steadfast refusal to condemn it.  It's been well documented by UNICEF, the UN, and various human rights organizations.  In fact, the *same agencies that condemned Hamas for using children* in warfare.  Somehow - when it's condemning Israel - it's all lies and propaganda and unfounded accusations.  Is it the same when it's condemning Hamas?


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## Hossfly (Jul 2, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> I think Israel is who wants attention. The abuse of the chid is a cry for attention that never ceases. 24/7 the abuses continue forward.


How in the world can any Israeli get work done when there are so many Palestinian children to abuse, kill, maim, torture, imprison, bomb and steal their candy?


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jul 2, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > I think Israel is who wants attention. The abuse of the chid is a cry for attention that never ceases. 24/7 the abuses continue forward.
> ...



That is their work!


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## Hossfly (Jul 2, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Paragraph 35 of UN Reporf, pg 9-  Entitled Violence against children Torture and other cruel or degrading treatment or punishment.  The Committee expresses deep concern about the reported practice of torture and ill treatment of Palestinian children arrested and prosecuted and detained by the military and police. Despite repeated concerns expressed by treaty bodies and special procedures mandate holders and UN organizations,  the practice continues. The Committee is concerned about the practice of Israel of routinely arresting children in the middle of the night by soldiers entering houses and shouting and hand tying and blind folding children who are taken away to unknown destinations without even being allowed to say goodbye to their parents. The Committee expresses deep concern over children systematically being subjected to physical and verbal violence and humiliation and painful restraints and hooding of the head and face in a sack, and children being threatened with death and physical violence and sexual assault against themselves or members of their family and restricted access to toilet and food and water.  These practices are perpetrated from the time of arrest, during transfer and interrogation,  to obtain a confession and also on an arbitrary basis subsequently as well as during pre trial detention. The UN Committee is also deeply concerned about  hildren held in solitary confinement,  sometimes for months.  The Committee points out these practices violate not only article 37 of the Convention but also violate constitute a grave breach of Article  32 of the Fourth Geneva Convention.  (Grave breaches of the Fourth Geneva Convention are war crimes) The Committee urges Israel to remove all children from solitary confinement,  investigate all alleged cases of torture, ensure there are adequate complaint mechanisms in place, ensure there are investigations of torture allegations, ensure physical and psychological recovery to victims of abuse.   Racial Discrimination Convention - Consideration of Israel's 14th to 16th periodic reports/Occupied Palestinian Territory, Jerusalem, Golan heights - CERD concluding observations (Adv. unedited version - excerpts) (9 March 2012)


You know, Frau Sherri, you can blabber on and on about what the biased UN says, but the fact of the matter is that your Muslim friends have tortured and killed so many children that it isn't funny.  I know all this torturing and murder by your friends doesn't involve the Jews, but do a little research at least from time to time to see what your friends are up to.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Jul 2, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



We have more proof that Hamas violates the Geneva Convention with regards to children than the copy and paste stuff from Sherri.  It is well know that the UN has an agenda against Israel whereas the UN have to condemn Hamas since we have visual proof and Hamas's admission they are proud to use children as human shields.


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jul 2, 2013)

Here, we see what Zionism looks like for a detained Palestinian child.   "Voices from the Occupation: Ahmad F. - Detention "  His name is Ahmad F, he was arrested *6 July 2011. He was 15, arrested from Burin village, in the Occupied West Bank. He was accused of throwing stones. Here is an excerpt of his testimony and some of what he experienced.  "At one point, whilst Ahmad was waiting outside, some soldiers brought a dog and Ahmad was pushed to the ground. I managed to see the dog from under my blindfold, he says. They brought the dogs food and put it on my head. I think it was a piece of bread, and the dog had to eat it off my head. His saliva started drooling all over* my head and that freaked me out. I was so scared my body started shaking because I thought he was going to bite me. They saw me shaking and started laughing and making fun of me.* Then they put another piece of bread on my trousers near my genitals, so I tried to move away but he started barking. I was terrified."    Voices from the Occupation: Ahmad F. - Detention | Defence for Children International Palestine


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## SherriMunnerlyn (Jul 2, 2013)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Sweet_Caroline said:
> ...



Well, the UN and human rights groups do not see it that way or report it that way. I will accept their findings.


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## Coyote (Jul 2, 2013)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Sweet_Caroline said:
> ...



The "proof" is the same with regards to children and I'm not talking about what anyone else has posted.  I'm talking about what the UN has reported for both, UNICEF and human rights organizations such as B'tselem.  The SAME organizations that you claim have an agenda against Israel yet concur when they condemn Hamas.  So effectively Israel gets a free pass - choose your reasons:

- it's all lies except when it condemns Hamas
- Hamas is worse so stop blaming Israel
- it's the fault of the Palestinians for letting their children throw rocks
- it's hateful propaganda

Effectively, through one means or another, you are going to absolve Israel or justify the abuse rather than insist on an accounting they way any decent citizen should demand of their government.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Jul 2, 2013)

Coyote said:


> Sweet_Caroline said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



B'tselem is an anti-Israel organisation, and the UN try their best to demonize Israel.  We have visual proof that Hamas commits crimes against children.  We do not have actual proof apart from UN reports and propaganda that the Israeli military commits crimes against children.


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## Kondor3 (Jul 2, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> SherriMunnerlyn said:
> 
> 
> > . And if I were really being ignored, as you claim, then you would not be here responding to my posts.
> ...


*Agreed.

I'm outta this thread.

It's nothing more than a cesspool of Palestinian propaganda anyway.

And I don't function well in dealing with traitors like our pro-Palestinian Attention-Monger.

Let the thread rot.
*


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## HistoryBefore67 (Jul 2, 2013)

In 2006-2007, the UN condemned Israel 22 times, while authoring ZERO resolutions on the genocide in Darfur.

The UN's Human Rights Commission has only one permanent agenda item, and it targets Israel.

In September 2011, the UN hosted a World Conference Against Racism in Durban, South Africa, which became little more than a platform for anti-Semitic speeches against Israel.

In 2009, the UN sponsored Goldstone report made accusations that were so unfounded, that Goldstone himself was forced to retract them two years later.

The UN continues to use Richard Falk as a Special Rapporteur, despite his repeated expressions of anti-Semitic beliefs.

Etc., etc., etc....

And people wonder why we discount "reports" from the UN.


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## HistoryBefore67 (Jul 2, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> HistoryBefore67 said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...




Agreed.  I'm out.


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## Sweet_Caroline (Jul 2, 2013)

Kondor3 said:


> HistoryBefore67 said:
> 
> 
> > SherriMunnerlyn said:
> ...



*Me too then.  I am also out.  
Coyote and Sherri and all the other anti-semites can demonize Israel to each other.  Sherri wants attention for her antisemitic propaganda and I won't feed the troll.   *



.


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## Coyote (Jul 2, 2013)

HistoryBefore67 said:


> In 2006-2007, the UN condemned Israel 22 times, while authoring ZERO resolutions on the genocide in Darfur.
> 
> The UN's Human Rights Commission has only one permanent agenda item, and it targets Israel.
> 
> ...



Actually, Goldstone retracted only one of his accusations I believe, the claim that Israel deliberately targeted civilians and noted that had Israel been more forth coming with information, the report would have been different.


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## Coyote (Jul 2, 2013)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Sweet_Caroline said:
> ...



B'tselem is not the only human rights organization.  I suppose they are all wrong and all demonizing Israel?


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## Hossfly (Jul 2, 2013)

Sweet_Caroline said:


> Kondor3 said:
> 
> 
> > HistoryBefore67 said:
> ...


I second the motion. All in favor say "*AYE*".


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## MHunterB (Jul 2, 2013)

SherriMunnerlyn said:


> Israel deliberately tortures and abuses Palestinian children. Day in and day out, these war crimes continue. The reporting period of the UN Report being discussed is ten years. This deliberate torture and abuse of the child has been ongoing and continuous for year after year in Israels Occupation of Palestine and has been pointed out over and over and over in reports,  pointed out by numerous NGOs and human rights groups and UN organizations. No matter how many reports that keep being written, Israel will not stop these deliberate war crimes against the child.



Why should anyone take such exaggeration and demonization as accurate?  

The palpable hysteria exhibited above completely undercuts any attempt at fact-based discussion.

I have no interest in pandering to anyone's self-induced orgasms of anguish......


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## MHunterB (Jul 2, 2013)

Again I ask:  Is there ANYTHING by way of 'proof' of any of these allegations beyond the 'testimony' of individuals who have every reason to exaggerate and fabricate ?

Is there any better documentation of *deliberate* wrong-doing as part of official policy here than was presented at the Salem Witch Trials?


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## Indofred (Jul 2, 2013)

Coyote said:


> HistoryBefore67 said:
> 
> 
> > In 2006-2007, the UN condemned Israel 22 times, while authoring ZERO resolutions on the genocide in Darfur.
> ...



I find this amusing.
Being anti child abuse, in the opinion of the Zionist element, is being anti Jewish.
I highlighted the crimes of the Israel government; not Jews in general.


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## Bloodrock44 (Jul 4, 2013)

Thanks for the useful information that Israel is using innovative ways of culling the herd.


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## holston (Jul 8, 2013)

Indofred said:


> I find this amusing.
> Being anti child abuse, in the opinion of the Zionist element, is being anti Jewish.
> I highlighted the crimes of the Israel government; not *Jews in general.*



 The problem here with "Jews in general" is their silent acquiescence to crimes when they are committed by fellow Jews against non-Jews. They presume that Jewish criminal enterprises are in some way beneficial to the Jewish community at large. 

 This attitude fails to take into consideration that at some point, even the dullest of people will  grow weary of tolerating it. For some reason the Jews never see the connection between this and the rise of what they call "anti-semitism". 

 This is pretty stupid of a community which prides itself on it's collective intelligence. 
 Maybe if they'd focus on something besides all the Shekels they're raking in, they could foresee the trouble their racketeering schemes and Jewish Supremacism can lead to.

 What's even more amazing is the numbers of Jews who openly encourage or boast of committing genocide, or "culling the herd". 
 This goes to show just how powerful the Politically Correct threat of being labeled an "anti-semite"  is among people who instinctively realize how much their livelihoods can depend on avoiding it.


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## toastman (Jul 8, 2013)

holston said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> > I find this amusing.
> ...



Care to present us with examples of all the "number of Jews who openly encourage or boast of committing genocide" ???


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## Hossfly (Jul 8, 2013)

holston said:


> Indofred said:
> 
> 
> > I find this amusing.
> ...


You are a riot, Holston, but I think by now the viewers have you figured out as a two-bit anti-Semite.  Meanwhile, why not show us from Muslim newspapers all the articles that are talking about the crimes which Muslims are committing.  The only way people in the Western world even hears about these crimes is from on-line news source which report them.  As for anti-Semitism, even those like Holston needs his scapegoat; and since the Jews are small in number, they have been chosen by him.  You short of money, Holston, that you had to drag in shekels.  I think many Jews and non Jews posting here can take up a little collection for you to tide you over for a while.  By the way, the "culling of the herd" statement was made by a non Jew, but since you always want to blame the Jews for something, you were obsessed with calling that person a Jew.  You know what they say, Holston, when you ASSume something.


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## Coyote (Jul 9, 2013)

*Posts have been removed for off topic trolling - please take personal issues to the FZ and get back on topic.*


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## cereal_killer (Jul 9, 2013)

Coyote said:


> *Posts have been removed for off topic trolling - please take personal issues to the FZ and get back on topic.*



*Warnings have went out. Next violation will result in member(s) being removed from this forum section permanently.*


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## holston (Jul 18, 2013)

Coyote said:


> *Posts have been removed for off topic trolling - please take personal issues to the FZ and get back on topic.*





> You are a riot, Holston, but I think by now the viewers have you figured out as a two-bit anti-Semite. Meanwhile, why not show us from Muslim newspapers all the articles that are talking about the crimes which Muslims are committing. The only way people in the Western world even hears about these crimes is from on-line news source which report them. As for anti-Semitism, even those like Holston needs his scapegoat; and since the Jews are small in number, they have been chosen by him. You short of money, Holston, that you had to drag in shekels. I think many Jews and non Jews posting here can take up a little collection for you to tide you over for a while. By the way, the "culling of the herd" statement was made by a non Jew, but since you always want to blame the Jews for something, you were obsessed with calling that person a Jew. You know what they say, Holston, when you ASSume something.






> Care to present us with examples of all the "number of Jews who openly encourage or boast of committing genocide" ???


 

 Right.


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## MHunterB (Jul 18, 2013)

Indofred said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > HistoryBefore67 said:
> ...



The bold is a very disingenuous 'statement'.  The phrase 'the Zionist element' is obviously intended to be derogatory, and to claim 'Zionism' is inherently negative or 'anti-' ANYONE is  abusive and obnoxious.  Why do I say that?  Because the 'Zionism' which millions - the vast majority - of mainstream Jews espouse has NO element of attacking or oppressing ANYONE else.

So, yes - all those insisting that 'Zionism' is automatically 'xenophobic' or something worse, are holding up a historically *in*accurate and *ultra-extremist* version of it, and insisting that is the mainstream normative belief and practice.  

And that is the very picture of the exact same blatant bias as when someone claims "All Muslims support Al-Quaeda" or some such slime.

The crimes of the Israeli government - and there ARE such crimes! - do not stem from 'Zionism' per se.  They stem from the fact that there are imperfect humans in charge who are subject to any number of pressures.....just like the rest of humanity.

Oh, and the implication of the 'disingenuous' sentence in bold above is exactly that 'Zionism approves of child abuse' - which is another form of attack.

At least that is how I see it.


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## MHunterB (Jul 18, 2013)

toastman said:


> holston said:
> 
> 
> > Indofred said:
> ...



Starting with the words in bold above:  this is an example of a blanket anti-Semitic accusation.  The evidence that it is completely false can be found in abundance on at least three different threads here on this forum.  

It goes downhill from there - but since the beginning statement is palpably false, I saw no need to address the rest of the 'content'.


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## holston (Jul 20, 2013)

MHunterB said:


> It goes downhill from there - but since the beginning statement is palpably false, I saw no need to address the rest of the 'content'.



Israeli Abuse Of Palestinian Children In Prison 'Systematic,' Says UN Report


> The ill-treatment of Palestinian minors held within the Israeli military detention system is "widespread, systematic and institutionalised," a report Wednesday by the UN children's fund found.
> 
> *UNICEF in the 22-page report that examined the Israeli military court system for holding Palestinian children found evidence of practices it said were "cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment or punishment."*
> 
> "Ill-treatment of Palestinian children in the Israeli military detention system appears to be widespread, systematic and institutionalised," it concluded, outlining 38 recommendations to improve the protection of children in custody.


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## Lipush (Jul 20, 2013)

And this is reported by who, exactly


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## holston (Jul 20, 2013)

UNICEF. 

 That's the organization that sends kids around on Halloween with cups asking for donations to children's relief funds and so forth, or are Jews the only ones who are allowed to boast of their charity?

 Speaking of charity, it seems to me that Israel gets quite a bit of charity from the US. 

 That's odd considering the Jews in the US have made the claim more than once that the Muslims  are in control of  the US government, ie that Prez is a closet Muslim, even when the evidence that he is a Marxist is clear as a bell.

 Would you like to give that one a shot?


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## Indofred (Jul 20, 2013)

toastman said:


> holston said:
> 
> 
> > Indofred said:
> ...



Muslims don't either but bigoted idiots commonly accuse us of it.


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## Indofred (Jul 20, 2013)

Bloodrock44 said:


> Thanks for the useful information that Israel is using innovative ways of culling the herd.



QED.

An excellent demonstration of why Israeli government and general Zionist actions are contrary to the interests of Jews in general.

It's the extremist idiots on both sides that give all a bad name.
There's our real enemy - those who promote hate and war.


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## Hossfly (Jul 20, 2013)

holston said:


> UNICEF.
> 
> That's the organization that sends kids around on Halloween with cups asking for donations to children's relief funds and so forth, or are Jews the only ones who are allowed to boast of their charity?
> 
> ...


Hmmm, recycled news.  Meanwhile, since all the viewers have seen Holston's posts in the past, it was not difficult for them to ascertain that Holston has a dislike for all people other than Whites like he is.  I actually wonder, therefore, if Holston contributes to UNICEF (like many of us Americans do) which tries to help children in need no matter what color they are, like the unfortunate Black children starving in Somalia.  Remember, Holston, Caryl Stern, head of UNICE, is counting on you to dig into your pockets. 
The Jewish Press » » Israel Rejects Report of ?Recycled? IDF Abuse of Arab Children


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## Hossfly (Jul 20, 2013)

Indofred said:


> toastman said:
> 
> 
> > holston said:
> ...


But, Freddie, the Jews are always accused on this forum of committing a genocide against the Palestinians even though these Palestinians are growing by leaps and bounds, but it appears that the Muslims never admit to the millions and millions they have murdered in what would be called real genocides.  Should we overlook the over a million Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians killed by the Turks?  Should we overlook the two million plus Christians murdered in the Sudan?  Should we overlook the three million (mainly Hindus) murdered in India?  Who even knows how many Sunnis have murdered Shiites and vice versa ever since Islam was invented.


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## holston (Jul 21, 2013)

Hossfly said:


> > Would you like to give that one a shot?
> 
> 
> Hmmm, recycled news.  Meanwhile, since all the viewers have seen Holston's posts in the past, it was not difficult for them to ascertain that Holston has a dislike for all people other than Whites like he is.  I actually wonder, therefore, if Holston contributes to UNICEF (like many of us Americans do) which tries to help children in need no matter what color they are, like the unfortunate Black children starving in Somalia.  Remember, Holston, Caryl Stern, head of UNICE, is counting on you to dig into your pockets.
> The Jewish Press » » Israel Rejects Report of ?Recycled? IDF Abuse of Arab Children



 What a way you have of twisting the truth. 

 I never said I disliked people of other races. In fact I have made statements to the contrary in a number of ways. You have a way of ignoring those. 
  Just what is your angle here? Do you expect me to stop every other post I make in order to write a lengthy defense of myself when myself is NOT THE TOPIC.

 Clearly you would rather attack me personally than stick to the issue.

 And are you saying that because the President and CEO of the U.S. Fund for UNICEF has a last name of "Stern" that she must be Jewish. 
 Why I'm shocked. You are making insinuations based on stereotyping. 

 To imply that a Jew would be the head of UNICEF would also add more weight to the inordinate numbers of Jews in charge of things. You don't want to do _that_ do you?

 Not that a Jew can't have red hair or be mistaken for a gentile, let's take a peek at her and see:

Caryl M. Stern :: Senior Management Team :: UNICEF USA







 The only way this woman could be in charge of UNICEF and allow an organization to issue a report which is clearly "anti-semitic" would be if she was some sort of self-hating Jew. 
  Another possibility is that the Chief Operating Officer and Acting President president has no control over what reports UNICEF issue, or had no knowledge of it.

 The President and many members of his cabinet and staff frequently make the same defense of themselves when some plan goes awry, the Benghazi episode for example, Prior knowledge of plans to attack the WTC bldgs is another. 

 For the sake of an argument, if Ms Stern _was_ Jew, how would the UNICEF report declaring human rights violations against children in Israel affect her credibility? 
 You have to admit that would be a clear example of an instance in which a JEW was in ERROR, something that they seldom if ever admit to. 

 How many ways can you have it?

 If you can't come up with some incredible excuse, just do like you do when presented with evidence of 9/11. He Haw around, throw dust in the air, rend your garments, and scream anti-semitism.


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## MHunterB (Jul 21, 2013)

holston said:


> UNICEF.
> 
> That's the organization that sends kids around on Halloween with cups asking for donations to children's relief funds and so forth, or are Jews the only ones who are allowed to boast of their charity?
> 
> ...



It's not 'the Jews' making that idiotic assertion:  it's right-wing extremists.  And what's even more asinine is to equate the Presidency with the entire US Government:  there's a small matter of 'separation of powers' per the Constitution.

Whether the current President is a 'Marxist' or not has nothing to do with Islam:  there are plenty of 'Marxist' Muslims in Asia and Africa particularly.  The 'secular' governments of Muslim-majority nations tend heavily towards 'Marxism' - particularly the Egyptians and the Ba'athist regimes....

As political 'analysis' the above bolded words were singularly inept and inaccurate......they were also completely OFF-TOPIC.

The question was "Do *official Israeli policies* for treatment of incarcerated Palestinian youth constitute HR violations? "

While the UNICEF report concludes that is the case - there was no conclusion that such policy exists *for the purpose of* abusing Palestinians.  THAT was the 'stuff' to which I was objecting - another poster's unwarranted assertion that UNICEF had concluded 'abuse' was deliberate and indeed 'the goal'......


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## Coyote (Jul 21, 2013)

*Thread closed for Moderator Review.*


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