# Democrats Need to Drop the Gun-Control Issue



## MarcATL (Jun 4, 2021)

I recently changed my stance on *gun-control*. I think it's a dead-end and only *harms *the Democratic Party.

Guns and the violence that accompanies it are too embedded in American culture, they *enshrined *it in their Constitution for Christ's sake.

Moreover, Americans are too *fearful *to ever put down their guns, so the Democrats need to wise up and just drop the issue.

At the very least change their stance and go full-bore in the *opposite *direction, I say *flood *the country w/guns and ammunition, let them buy weapons till their wallets *burst*.

However, at the same time, they need to promote* gun safety* and *consequences *for the lack thereof. Every gun owner should be *insured*, if not, they should be held *financially *and *criminally *liable if/when necessary.

Also, keep better track of them, that goes w/the previous sentence.

Let people *get* and *keep* their guns to theirheartscontent, but let's *all* be *safe *about it.


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## Blues Man (Jun 4, 2021)

MarcATL said:


> I recently changed my stance on *gun-control*. I think it's a dead-end and only *harms *the Democratic Party.
> 
> Guns and the violence that accompanies it are too embedded in American culture, they *enshrined *it in their Constitution for Christ's sake.
> 
> ...



Since the vast majority of legal gun owners will never commit a crime or shoot anyone I would say violence does not accompany gun ownership.  And violence is certainly not enshrined in the Constitution.

In fact it is an almost vanishingly small percentage of people that commit any crimes involving guns and violence.

Our gun crimes are so concentrated in very small areas of the country that you can see drastic crime stats in a 3 or 4 block distance but outside of that area gun crimes are virtually nonexistent.

The crime and violence in this country are social ills and have nothing to do with people who legally own guns.


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## Rambunctious (Jun 4, 2021)

Americans are use to the 2nd amendment and appreciate its value in the preservation of freedom...the minority of anti gun ownership gets smaller every day....I have anti gun friends that have armed themselves this past year...every time a dem brings up gun control folks go out and buy more guns....you had better get the message democrats....


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## Rambunctious (Jun 4, 2021)

Think about our weak leader we have today in Joe....China could invade the USA and walk right down Main street and Joe wouldn't stop them...what would happen if none of us had guns?....


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## JoeB131 (Jun 4, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> Since the vast majority of legal gun owners will never commit a crime or shoot anyone I would say violence does not accompany gun ownership. And violence is certainly not enshrined in the Constitution.



Most undocumented immigrants don't commit violent crimes... but you want to round them all up.  


Blues Man said:


> The crime and violence in this country are social ills and have nothing to do with people who legally own guns.



Again- most people who are killed with guns are killed by people they know.  A gun in the home is 43 times more likely to kill a household member than a bad guy.  

The thing is, I agree, if you limited gun ownership to responsible people, you wouldn't have a problem. 

Except if you did that, most people wouldn't really want them.  

The gun industry wants the bad guys in that three block radius to have lots of guns so you get scared and want them, too.


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## LordBrownTrout (Jun 4, 2021)

MarcATL said:


> I recently changed my stance on *gun-control*. I think it's a dead-end and only *harms *the Democratic Party.
> 
> Guns and the violence that accompanies it are too embedded in American culture, they *enshrined *it in their Constitution for Christ's sake.
> 
> ...



That will not happen.  Communists, socialists, marxists......todays dems, take guns away from the populace.


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## Blues Man (Jun 4, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > Since the vast majority of legal gun owners will never commit a crime or shoot anyone I would say violence does not accompany gun ownership. And violence is certainly not enshrined in the Constitution.
> ...


OK so why don't you quote where I said i want illegals "rounded up"? 

And FYI the gun industry doesn't make a profit on the illegal sales of guns to criminals.

And everyone is killed by someone they "know"  but so what?  I could say I "know" thousands of people w=but not have any type pf relationship with any of them


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## BlackSand (Jun 4, 2021)

MarcATL said:


> I recently changed my stance on *gun-control*. I think it's a dead-end and only *harms *the Democratic Party.
> 
> Guns and the violence that accompanies it are too embedded in American culture, they *enshrined *it in their Constitution for Christ's sake.
> 
> ...


.

Thanks for your input and some good ideas.
I can say that Democrat attempts are selling, and have always sold, more firearms.

Proper gun safety courses, tactical training and situation awareness courses have seen an increase in interest.
There has been a steady increase in firearm owners doing what is necessary to obtain a Conceal and Carry Permit.
Those categories have also seen a steady increase with women and other minorities.

A firearms owner can purchase firearms use insurance.
That insurance often includes legal representation should they use their firearm in an incident.

However  ... It is safe to say that better enforcement of existing laws, may have more impact.
Law-abiding citizens have already chosen to obey the law.

. ​


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## Harry Dresden (Jun 4, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > Since the vast majority of legal gun owners will never commit a crime or shoot anyone I would say violence does not accompany gun ownership. And violence is certainly not enshrined in the Constitution.
> ...


your last sentence is a crock of shit joe....you just ate up some anti gun bullshit....


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## Billy_Kinetta (Jun 4, 2021)

MarcATL said:


> Moreover, Americans are too *fearful *to ever put down their guns


It's not a question of fear, but of personal responsibility.  The police cannot defend you.


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## BluesLegend (Jun 4, 2021)

MarcATL said:


> I recently changed my stance on *gun-control*. I think it's a dead-end and only *harms *the Democratic Party.


Dems can't win on gun control because their proposals are beyond stupid! Heaping gun control laws onto already law abiding gun owners accomplishes none of the gun control objectives. Meanwhile the criminals and mentally ill IGNORE gun control laws. This is why law abiding gun owners tell gun control advocates to fuck off!


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## BlindBoo (Jun 4, 2021)

I'll always support good gun control measures.  

Balance is very important in controlling your weapon.  Knowing where the safety is.  Knowing how to clean and maintain your weapon is pretty important too.


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## MarcATL (Jun 4, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> Since the vast majority of legal gun owners will never commit a crime or shoot anyone I would say violence does not accompany gun ownership.  And violence is certainly not enshrined in the Constitution.
> 
> In fact it is an almost vanishingly small percentage of people that commit any crimes involving guns and violence.
> 
> ...


*Republican* USMB posters are always emphasizing how bad crime is in the only city in America, *Chicago* and you come waltzing in to *burst* their bubble with these alternative facts.

*Who* should I believe?


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## MisterBeale (Jun 4, 2021)

MarcATL said:


> _ Every gun owner should be *insured*, if not, they should be held *financially *and *criminally *liable if/when necessary._


I have no problem with gun owners being held _financially_ and criminally liable. . . however, if you make insurance mandatory?

Only the rich and the elites will be able to exercise their 2nd Amendment rights.

This is akin to the poll tax that we once had that excluded folks from voting.

It is also why our elections tilt toward the rich and the powerful. . . money is speech in this nation.

Once you require folks to need money to exercise their rights?  You start to go down are very dangerous path.

The corporations are already very busy at subverting the public government and replacing it with a corporatacracy controlled by technology. . . you want to help strip the poor even more of their natural rights?

Which billionaire corporatist do you work for?


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## pknopp (Jun 4, 2021)

There is no issue. It's like immigration and abortion, everyone knows nothing is going to be done of any real difference.


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## Bootney Lee Farnsworth (Jun 4, 2021)

MarcATL said:


> However, at the same time, they need to promote* gun safety* and *consequences *for the lack thereof. Every gun owner should be *insured*, if not, they should be held *financially *and *criminally *liable if/when necessary.


I fully support gun safety and training.  I even want it to be mandatory curriculum in high schools which ensures that all students are familiar with the safe use of firearms.

Gun accidents are so rare that it should be fairly inexpensive to insure, but what do we get in return?   Also, insurance would not cover intentional actions, so I don't know what the goal would be.

Other than that, I agree with your OP.


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Jun 4, 2021)

MarcATL said:


> I recently changed my stance on *gun-control*. I think it's a dead-end and only *harms *the Democratic Party.
> 
> Guns and the violence that accompanies it are too embedded in American culture, they *enshrined *it in their Constitution for Christ's sake.
> 
> ...


Agreed.


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## Bootney Lee Farnsworth (Jun 4, 2021)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > I recently changed my stance on *gun-control*. I think it's a dead-end and only *harms *the Democratic Party.
> ...


Can we repeal the Hughes Amendment?


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## BlackSand (Jun 4, 2021)

Bootney Lee Farnsworth said:


> I fully support gun safety and training.  I even want it to be mandatory curriculum in high schools which ensures that all students are familiar with the safe use of firearms.
> 
> Gun accidents are so rare that it should be fairly inexpensive to insure, but what do we get in return?   Also, insurance would not cover intentional actions, so I don't know what the goal would be.
> 
> Other than that, I agree with your OP.


.

They made Hunter's Safety Courses (conducted by the Sheriff's Department) something they had to offer at the High School (Gun Free Zone) ...
When the State Legislature started requiring Hunter's Safety Certification to get a Hunting License. 

The People in this state ... We don't let shit slide by ... 

.​


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Jun 4, 2021)

MarcATL said:


> I recently changed my stance on *gun-control*. I think it's a dead-end and only *harms *the Democratic Party.
> 
> Guns and the violence that accompanies it are too embedded in American culture, they *enshrined *it in their Constitution for Christ's sake.
> 
> ...


Most Democrats and liberals likewise agree.


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## Coyote (Jun 4, 2021)

MarcATL said:


> I recently changed my stance on *gun-control*. I think it's a dead-end and only *harms *the Democratic Party.
> 
> Guns and the violence that accompanies it are too embedded in American culture, they *enshrined *it in their Constitution for Christ's sake.
> 
> ...




Guns should be handled like cars.  Maintain a registry, pass a basic gun safety and knowledge test, show you can hit something, and be licensed and insured.


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## MarcATL (Jun 4, 2021)

MisterBeale said:


> I have no problem with gun owners being held _financially_ and criminally liable. . . however, if you make insurance mandatory?
> 
> Only the rich and the elites will be able to exercise their 2nd Amendment rights.
> 
> ...


Yeah, that's why I said "if not."
Don't *force* on people, but do *promote* it.

The insurance doesn't have to be expensive and existing insurance companies can implement a special or additional or whatever gun insurance fee right now.


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## AzogtheDefiler (Jun 4, 2021)

MarcATL said:


> I recently changed my stance on *gun-control*. I think it's a dead-end and only *harms *the Democratic Party.
> 
> Guns and the violence that accompanies it are too embedded in American culture, they *enshrined *it in their Constitution for Christ's sake.
> 
> ...


Why do you bold certain words? Is that some sort of OCD disorder? No chance they drop that issue. That is embedded in their platform as pro life is for the GOP.


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## MarcATL (Jun 4, 2021)

Coyote said:


> Guns should be handled like cars.  Maintain a registry, pass a basic gun safety and knowledge test, show you can hit something, and be licensed and insured.


That's it right there.


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## Nostra (Jun 4, 2021)

MarcATL said:


> I recently changed my stance on *gun-control*. I think it's a dead-end and only *harms *the Democratic Party.
> 
> Guns and the violence that accompanies it are too embedded in American culture, they *enshrined *it in their Constitution for Christ's sake.
> 
> ...


*If *you* Dimwingers *aren't* shitting *on the *Constitution*, what *will *you *do*?


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## MarcATL (Jun 4, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> Why do you bold certain words? Is that some sort of OCD disorder? No chance they drop that issue. That is embedded in their platform as pro life is for the GOP.


They can *certainly* learn.


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## MarcATL (Jun 4, 2021)

Nostra said:


> *If *you* Dimwingers *aren't* shitting *on the *Constitution*, what *will *you *do*?


Pretty colors. Me like!


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## Nostra (Jun 4, 2021)

MarcATL said:


> Nostra said:
> 
> 
> > *If *you* Dimwingers *aren't* shitting *on the *Constitution*, what *will *you *do*?
> ...


Of course, you are used to reading & writing in crayons.


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## MisterBeale (Jun 4, 2021)

MarcATL said:


> MisterBeale said:
> 
> 
> > I have no problem with gun owners being held _financially_ and criminally liable. . . however, if you make insurance mandatory?
> ...


I agree with not forcing it.

Most states require you to have some form of insurance to drive.

. . . when I was younger, I was outraged at this notion.  Mostly b/c the total expense, even for personal liability for one year, was more than the cost of a used car.

This always seemed to me, to be an economic war upon the poor and the young by the economic elites.  And a hindrance upon the economy, for those who want to better themselves.

. . . but?  Driving is NOT a protected constitutional right, anymore than healthcare is.

Since those days, at least in my state, personal liability insurance rates have dropped about 300% (for me at least, and for many, given age, credit scores, and driving record,) and small business growth and job opportunities for the poor and middle class have completely rebounded in the past two or three decades in this state.  Obviously, there is more to it than just insurance reform.

. . . but the point here, is that the banking and insurance sectors are very closely intertwined, and any opportunity for financialization of the economy, at the expense of the poor and middle classes, WILL be taken.  

REMEMBER THIS, as not only are small towns dependent on small business, but, so too are the micro-economies of the various minority communities.  If you place more financial requirements on the poor and middle classes, sapping resources away from these communities for the economic elites?  Then, invariably, it will lead to less economic activity and less job growth, as between 40 and 50 percent of jobs are dependent on small business and the local economy.  This leads to crime, poor health, police oppression, hopelessness, drug abuse, etc.  And then, the media and establishment will play their stupid identity and divide and conquer games on us to distract us from the misdeeds of the political, cultural, and financial elites that run the show.


I would be very, very wary of both parties trying, yet one more way, to funnel the economic resources of the poor and middles classes into the pockets of the financial elites.  It was the DNC that was represented by them this time. . . but the GOP is not guilt free of them.  They donate to both parties, and have corrupted the entire system.  Malcom X knew this well.















						Financialization - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## 2aguy (Jun 4, 2021)

MarcATL said:


> I recently changed my stance on *gun-control*. I think it's a dead-end and only *harms *the Democratic Party.
> 
> Guns and the violence that accompanies it are too embedded in American culture, they *enshrined *it in their Constitution for Christ's sake.
> 
> ...




You can't mandate a fee for the exercise of a Right, as mandatory insurance would do...

Murdock v Pennsylvania.......the democrats tried Poll taxes to keep blacks from voting and that too was found unConstitutional......

We don't need to keep track of guns, criminals get caught with guns all the time...we just have to keep the democrat party from releasing the violent gun criminals that we actually catch...

No one is arguing against gun safety, in fact I fully support it......but you aren't going to use it as a tool to prevent law abiding people from owning and carrying guns...


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Jun 4, 2021)

pknopp said:


> There is no issue. It's like immigration and abortion, everyone knows nothing is going to be done of any real difference.


It's a wedge issue used by the right to divide the American people and deflect from real issues Republicans have no answer for, like abortion.


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## 2aguy (Jun 4, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > Since the vast majority of legal gun owners will never commit a crime or shoot anyone I would say violence does not accompany gun ownership. And violence is certainly not enshrined in the Constitution.
> ...



If they are in the country illegally, they broke the law...they need to be arrestd, sent home, and then they can actually use the legal process to enter the country....that is a hard concept for your tiny brain, but that is how it has to work.

Thanks for citing the lie of 43 times more likely to die by your own gun....I always enjoy using it to show that you are liar, who has been shown that Kellerman the guy who came up with that number retracted it...redid his research, came up with 2.7 and even then the research was bad....then he himself admitted he would use a gun in his home to protect his family....

Kellerman who did the study that came up with the 43 times more likely myth, was forced to do the research over when other academics pointed out how flawed his methods were....he then changed the 43 times number to 2.7, but he was still using flawed data to get even that number.....

Below is the study where he changed the number from 43 to 2.7 and below that is the explanation as to why that number isn't even accurate.

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199310073291506

After controlling for these characteristics, we found that keeping a gun in the home was strongly and independently associated with an increased risk of homicide (adjusted odds ratio, 2.7;

------------


Nine Myths Of Gun Control

Myth #6 "A homeowner is 43 times as likely to be killed or kill a family member as an intruder"

To suggest that science has proven that defending oneself or one's family with a gun is dangerous, gun prohibitionists repeat Dr. Kellermann's long discredited claim: "a gun owner is 43 times more likely to kill a family member than an intruder." [17] This fallacy , fabricated using tax dollars, is one of the most misused slogans of the anti-self-defense lobby.

The honest measure of the protective benefits of guns are the lives saved, the injuries prevented, the medical costs saved, and the property protected not Kellermann's burglar or rapist body count.

Only 0.1% (1 in a thousand) of the defensive uses of guns results in the death of the predator. [3]

Any study, such as Kellermann' "43 times" fallacy, that only counts bodies will expectedly underestimate the benefits of gun a thousand fold.

Think for a minute. Would anyone suggest that the only measure of the benefit of law enforcement is the number of people killed by police? Of course not. The honest measure of the benefits of guns are the lives saved, the injuries prevented, the medical costs saved by deaths and injuries averted, and the property protected. 65 lives protected by guns for every life lost to a gun. [2]

*Kellermann recently downgraded his estimate to "2.7 times," [18] but he persisted in discredited methodology. He used a method that cannot distinguish between "cause" and "effect." His method would be like finding more diet drinks in the refrigerators of fat people and then concluding that diet drinks "cause" obesity.*


Also, he studied groups with high rates of violent criminality, alcoholism, drug addiction, abject poverty, and domestic abuse .


From such a poor and violent study group he attempted to generalize his findings to normal homes

*Interestingly, when Dr. Kellermann was interviewed he stated that, if his wife were attacked, he would want her to have a gun for protection.[19] Apparently, Dr. Kellermann doesn't even believe his own studies.*
*

-----
*

Public Health and Gun Control: A Review



Since at least the mid-1980s, Dr. Kellermann (and associates), whose work had been heavily-funded by the CDC, published a series of studies purporting to show that persons who keep guns in the home are more likely to be victims of homicide than those who don¹t.

In a 1986 NEJM paper, Dr. Kellermann and associates, for example, claimed their "scientific research" proved that defending oneself or one¹s family with a firearm in the home is dangerous and counter productive, claiming* "a gun owner is 43 times more likely to kill a family member than an intruder."8

In a critical review and now classic article published in the March 1994 issue of the Journal of the Medical Association of Georgia (JMAG), Dr. Edgar Suter, Chairman of Doctors for Integrity in Policy Research (DIPR), found evidence of "methodologic and conceptual errors," such as prejudicially truncated data and the listing of "the correct methodology which was described but never used by the authors."5 *

Moreover, the gun control researchers failed to consider and underestimated the protective benefits of guns.

Dr. Suter writes: "The true measure of the protective benefits of guns are the lives and medical costs saved, the injuries prevented, and the property protected ‹ not the burglar or rapist body count.

Since only 0.1 - 0.2 percent of defensive uses of guns involve the death of the criminal, any study, such as this, that counts criminal deaths as the only measure of the protective benefits of guns will expectedly underestimate the benefits of firearms by a factor of 500 to 1,000."5

In 1993, in his landmark and much cited NEJM article (and the research, again, heavily funded by the CDC), Dr. Kellermann attempted to show again that guns in the home are a greater risk to the victims than to the assailants.4 Despite valid criticisms by reputable scholars of his previous works (including the 1986 study), Dr. Kellermann ignored the criticisms and again used the same methodology.

*He also used study populations with disproportionately high rates of serious psychosocial dysfunction from three selected state counties, known to be unrepresentative of the general U.S. population.

For example, 

53 percent of the case subjects had a history of a household member being arrested, 

31 percent had a household history of illicit drug use, 32 percent had a household member hit or hurt in a family fight, and 

17 percent had a family member hurt so seriously in a domestic altercation that prompt medical attention was required. 
Moreover, both the case studies and control groups in this analysis had a very high incidence of financial instability.*

In fact, in this study, gun ownership, the supposedly high risk factor for homicide was not one of the most strongly associated factors for being murdered.

*Drinking, illicit drugs, living alone, history of family violence, living in a rented home were all greater individual risk factors for being murdered than a gun in the home. One must conclude there is no basis to apply the conclusions of this study to the general population.*

All of these are factors that, as Dr. Suter pointed out, "would expectedly be associated with higher rates of violence and homicide."5

*It goes without saying, the results of such a study on gun homicides, selecting this sort of unrepresentative population sample, nullify the authors' generalizations, and their preordained, conclusions can not be extrapolated to the general population.*

Moreover, although the 1993 New England Journal of Medicine study purported to show that the homicide victims were killed with a gun ordinarily kept in the home, the fact is that as Kates and associates point out 71.1 percent of the victims were killed by assailants who did not live in the victims¹ household using guns presumably not kept in that home.6


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## 2aguy (Jun 4, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > Blues Man said:
> ...




And that was the trick he used......the people killed in their own home were killed by the visiting drug dealer or drug buyer or other criminal.........often with a gun that wasn't even their own gun.........but kellerman didn't care about those little details, neither does joe...


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## 2aguy (Jun 4, 2021)

MarcATL said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > Since the vast majority of legal gun owners will never commit a crime or shoot anyone I would say violence does not accompany gun ownership.  And violence is certainly not enshrined in the Constitution.
> ...




No....I constantly cite D.C., Baltimore, St. Louis, New York, Chicago, New Orleans, Baton Rouge, and any number of democrat party controlled cities....

Then I post this from the Washington Post.......

*As the below charts show, Democratic areas (measured by the party that controls the congressional district) are far more likely to experience almost all forms of malicious gun violence than Republican areas. *

*These charts exclude suicides, for which data are not available on a congressional district basis, so it only breaks down the fraction of gun violence that is accidental or confrontational.*
*--------*

*A distinct pattern emerged: In Democratic regions of the country, which tend to be cities, people are more likely to be murdered with a gun than they are to shoot themselves to death.**

In regions of the country won by Republicans, which tend to be rural areas and small towns, the opposite is true — people are more likely to shoot themselves to death than they are to be murdered with a gun.
----
In the most Democratic regions, gun violence is more often committed against another, crimes that probably generate more news coverage and fear. In the most Republican areas, it is more often committed against oneself, suicides that may not attract as much attention.*

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...prising-way-gun-violence-is-dividing-america/


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## Dont Taz Me Bro (Jun 4, 2021)

MarcATL said:


> I recently changed my stance on *gun-control*. I think it's a dead-end and only *harms *the Democratic Party.
> 
> Guns and the violence that accompanies it are too embedded in American culture, they *enshrined *it in their Constitution for Christ's sake.
> 
> ...



Don't blacks need guns to defend themselves against all the marauding bands of white supremacists out there anyway?


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## 2aguy (Jun 4, 2021)

MisterBeale said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > _ Every gun owner should be *insured*, if not, they should be held *financially *and *criminally *liable if/when necessary._
> ...




Define "responsible."  To anti-gunners that means if your home or car is broken into and your legal gun is stolen, they want you to be jailed, fined and punished for every crime the criminal who stole the gun commits....that is the bait and switch you fall into if you buy into what they want....


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## Juicin (Jun 4, 2021)

Disarming the plebs is just inherently regressive

The rich will always have permits and bodyguards

No reason some little old lady can't carry a revolver around in her purse.


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## Juicin (Jun 4, 2021)

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > I recently changed my stance on *gun-control*. I think it's a dead-end and only *harms *the Democratic Party.
> ...



no you just gotta be prepared to turn on the traitor globalists

like they did in cuba, HAHAHA


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## 2aguy (Jun 4, 2021)

Bootney Lee Farnsworth said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > However, at the same time, they need to promote* gun safety* and *consequences *for the lack thereof. Every gun owner should be *insured*, if not, they should be held *financially *and *criminally *liable if/when necessary.
> ...




The goal is obvious....make gun ownership more expensive....they will take any inconvenience to gun owners they can get......also, they say Insurance, but read what they post....they want you held responsible if a criminal breaks into your home or car and takes your gun by theft.....they want you on the hook for whatever that criminals does with your stolen property...


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## 2aguy (Jun 4, 2021)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> pknopp said:
> 
> 
> > There is no issue. It's like immigration and abortion, everyone knows nothing is going to be done of any real difference.
> ...




We have an answer for abortion....you can't kill your babies........you guys don't like that because you want to be able to have sex with all the women you want and you don't want to have to pay for the babies you create....that is why democrat party males support abortion so strongly...especially when it comes to raping interns...


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## 2aguy (Jun 4, 2021)

Coyote said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > I recently changed my stance on *gun-control*. I think it's a dead-end and only *harms *the Democratic Party.
> ...




Yeah, no thanks........at this point you guys won't try to ban and confiscate cars......that is for farther down the road..

You want to keep law abiding people from being able to own and carry guns and you will use prohibitive taxes, fees and training requirements to keep people from owning and carrying them...

Just like when guys like you passed Poll Taxes and Literacy tests to keep blacks from voting, you want to pass the Poll Taxes and Literacy tests for gun ownership...

Sorry, too bad...


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## AzogtheDefiler (Jun 4, 2021)

MarcATL said:


> AzogtheDefiler said:
> 
> 
> > Why do you bold certain words? Is that some sort of OCD disorder? No chance they drop that issue. That is embedded in their platform as pro life is for the GOP.
> ...


Really? Give me an example of an issue where they "learned"?

Thanks


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## Jimmy_Chitwood (Jun 4, 2021)

MarcATL said:


> I recently changed my stance on *gun-control*. I think it's a dead-end and only *harms *the Democratic Party.
> 
> Guns and the violence that accompanies it are too embedded in American culture, they *enshrined *it in their Constitution for Christ's sake.
> 
> ...




The brothers agree.


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## toobfreak (Jun 4, 2021)

MarcATL said:


> I recently changed my stance on *gun-control*.


Good thing because it was WRONG.  Like all of your positions you at first THINK is right.



MarcATL said:


> Moreover, Americans are too *fearful *to ever put down their guns, so the Democrats need to wise up and just drop the issue.


INTERESTING that you group AMERICANS into a separate group from DEMOCRATS.



MarcATL said:


> I say *flood *the country w/guns and ammunition, let them buy weapons till their wallets *burst*.


Just keep putting democrats in office.  Nothing sells guns like putting an Obumma or Biddum there.



MarcATL said:


> However, at the same time, they need to promote* gun safety*


That is the role of the NRA to promote good firearm training. 



MarcATL said:


> if not, they should be held *financially *and *criminally *liable if/when necessary.


I guess you're too much an idiot to realize that the "gun nuts" of the Right are mostly involved in the DEFENSIVE use of guns to protect themselves.  Usually from the likes of YOU.


----------



## okfine (Jun 4, 2021)

BluesLegend said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > I recently changed my stance on *gun-control*. I think it's a dead-end and only *harms *the Democratic Party.
> ...


Meanwhile, 1 in 6 ADULTS are diagnosed with mental illness in this country. Many of them own guns, I suspect.

"Mental illnesses are common in the United States. Nearly one in five U.S. adults live with a mental illness (51.5 million in 2019). Mental illnesses include many different conditions that vary in degree of severity, ranging from mild to moderate to severe."





__





						Mental Illness
					

An overview of statistics for mental illnesses. Mental illnesses are common in the United States. One in six U.S. adults lives with a mental illness (43.4 million in 2015). Mental illnesses include many different conditions that vary in degree of severity, ranging from mild to moderate to severe.




					www.nimh.nih.gov


----------



## Juicin (Jun 4, 2021)

okfine said:


> BluesLegend said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...



People are flawed let's revoke all rights!!!

Idiot

We have no real ability to identify most mental illnesses, just a bunch of conjecture propelled by a massive pharmaceutical industry. A lot of them like addiction are simply defined by if they're giving you problems in your personal life, as defined by you.


----------



## TNHarley (Jun 4, 2021)

okfine said:


> BluesLegend said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...


You voted for a guy with mental illness to control our nukes. Lets be real here.


----------



## okfine (Jun 4, 2021)

Juicin said:


> okfine said:
> 
> 
> > BluesLegend said:
> ...


Maybe you should get checked, idiot.


----------



## Juicin (Jun 4, 2021)

okfine said:


> Juicin said:
> 
> 
> > okfine said:
> ...



They'd just see my income and call me quirky like you would trump, lol

that's how shrinks work

ask them if you're a drunk. They'll respond with a question like "is it causing you problems in your personal life?" lol

They don't know shit, borderline psuedoscience

Just take out the "depressed" people and that number gets cut in half


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## Billy_Kinetta (Jun 4, 2021)

Coyote said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > I recently changed my stance on *gun-control*. I think it's a dead-end and only *harms *the Democratic Party.
> ...


Unconstitutional.


----------



## TNHarley (Jun 4, 2021)

Coyote said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > I recently changed my stance on *gun-control*. I think it's a dead-end and only *harms *the Democratic Party.
> ...


Lets do with that voting too. And free speech. And due process. etc
Great ideas, if i do say so myself


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## 2aguy (Jun 4, 2021)

okfine said:


> BluesLegend said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...




Ok.  Thanks for the info.


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## BluesLegend (Jun 4, 2021)

okfine said:


> BluesLegend said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...


What are your intentions, to force law abiding gun owners to be even more law abiding? Are you proposing all alcohol be banned because a percentage are alcoholics who kill thousands of people each year, far more than guns do?


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## Penelope (Jun 4, 2021)

okfine said:


> BluesLegend said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...


Or just druggies and alcoholics can go on a shooting spree or kill a spouse. I made the point when we first got married, no guns in the house.


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## JoeB131 (Jun 4, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> OK so why don't you quote where I said i want illegals "rounded up"?


Not playing that game.  The right wants them rounded up.  Until you start correcting them, you are going along. 



Blues Man said:


> And FYI the gun industry doesn't make a profit on the illegal sales of guns to criminals.


Sure they do.  Where do you think t hose guns come from?  They come from straw buyers, gun dealers at gun shows, etc.  All that money goes back to Big Gun eventually.  But the real profit is the fear they create.


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## HereWeGoAgain (Jun 4, 2021)

Coyote said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > I recently changed my stance on *gun-control*. I think it's a dead-end and only *harms *the Democratic Party.
> ...



Driving isn't a right.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 4, 2021)

MarcATL said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > Since the vast majority of legal gun owners will never commit a crime or shoot anyone I would say violence does not accompany gun ownership.  And violence is certainly not enshrined in the Constitution.
> ...


I'm not a republican.

And why don't you just believe the statistics of where the most murders occur?

Murder and crime rates are always higher in urban areas


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## Blues Man (Jun 4, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > OK so why don't you quote where I said i want illegals "rounded up"?
> ...


I'm not the right.  I don't vote for republicans.

Gun manufacturers are only allowed to sell wholesale to licensed dealers.  Licensed dealers are only allowed to sell to people who pass BG checks.

Gun manufacturers only make money on their sales to licensed dealers.  Licensed dealers only make money on the legal sales of guns

Any illegal sale does not increase the profit of the manufacturers.

Do you think Ford makes money if you buy a 10 year old Taurus?


----------



## MarcATL (Jun 4, 2021)

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


> Don't blacks need guns to defend themselves against all the marauding bands of white supremacists out there anyway?


And the racist Asians. Yes.


----------



## 52ndStreet (Jun 4, 2021)

You should not have to have a license or permit to buy a Gun or Assault rifle. The constitution gives every adult citizen the right to bear arms. License, permits, or why do you need a gun, are all infringements on your 2nd amendment right to bear arms.


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## Coyote (Jun 4, 2021)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...


Doesn't matter.

NO right is unlimited.

How about not being a 2nd amendment zealot and consider some win win solutions?  Nah.  That would take common sense and I wouldn't expect that from someone who's only solution is MORE GUNS and MORE GUNS - it's a big industry after all.


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## 2aguy (Jun 4, 2021)

Coyote said:


> HereWeGoAgain said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...




We have win win solutions.....when someone uses a gun to commit a crime, we arrest them and put them in jail and then prison...

Win Win....what you want is to limit the Right of owning and carrying a gun to the point no one is capable of getting through the Red Tape, pay the taxes and fees and mandatory insurance  and pass the massive training requirements.....so that few if any normal people can own and carry guns....that is what you mean by win win solutions.....

My way works, yours doesn't.....my way targets and stops actual criminals, your way disarms normal Americans in the face of violent criminals and future, out of control government.


----------



## hadit (Jun 4, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > Since the vast majority of legal gun owners will never commit a crime or shoot anyone I would say violence does not accompany gun ownership. And violence is certainly not enshrined in the Constitution.
> ...


A lot of gang members know the person they're shooting at. So do drug dealers. Face it, take away criminal on criminal shootings and we're on par with the rest of the world, PLUS we still have guns.


----------



## Coyote (Jun 4, 2021)

Penelope said:


> okfine said:
> 
> 
> > BluesLegend said:
> ...


If someone is a stalker, with a restraining order - can't infringe on his rights to get a gun.

If someone is mentally ill - can't infringe on his rights either.

Someone here had no problem with little kids having guns.

This is nuts.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 4, 2021)

Coyote said:


> HereWeGoAgain said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...




The number of guns isn't the issue.....27 years showed us this...

Over the last 27 years, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 19.4 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2019...guess what happened...

https://crimeresearch.org/2020/10/n...n-issuing-permits-because-of-the-coronavirus/


-- gun murder down 49%

--gun crime down 75%

--violent crime down 72%

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

*Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.


More guns did not mean more gun crime......gun crime and gun murder went down...*

*This changed in 2015....why?  Not because people own guns.....it changed because the democrat party began a campaign to attack and hobble the police......we now have more gun crime not because more people own guns...but because the police can't, and won't do their jobs for fear of persecution by the democrat party and it's allies......*


----------



## Coyote (Jun 4, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > HereWeGoAgain said:
> ...


Ooops. You lose.  Or rather someone loses, you know, the dead guy.

The one you have to WAIT until he's KILLED before you do anything.

Brilliant right?

But for some bizarre reason, you seem to think having a registry (which infringes on no right in away shape or form)...being required to display some basic knowledge that you know how to handle a deadly weapon (who's sole purpose is for killing something) safely - is an infringement.  

Yet...hmmm....I'm not allowed to engage in bigamy, if my religion requires it...in fact there are a lot of things I can't do in the name of religion.  Either my rights are being infringed upon or....no right is unlimited.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 4, 2021)

Coyote said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > okfine said:
> ...




No.....you idiot....the guns were locked up in their home....locked up....not sitting on the drive way.

If someone is a stalker, if the police can't deal with them, that is on you shitheads...meanwhile, you prevent the women from being able to get a gun to stop the stalker.......

And the mentally ill?   You are an idiot...we already have laws that allow us to commit people who are dangerous to themselves or others......that also allows us to take their guns...we have those already......you just want to be able to classify normal gun owners as crazy so you can just take their guns...

*Everyone wants to stop dangerous people from getting guns. The hot new policy option before this committee is Red Flag laws, which take away the guns of people deemed dangerous to themselves or others. But there is a much more effective alternative already in place.*
*
They are known as Baker Act statutes (Pennsylvania’s is called the “Mental Health Procedures Act”), and have been around since the early 1970s. They allow police, doctors and family members to have someone typically held in most states for a 72-hour mental health examination based upon a simple reasonableness test – little more than a guess or a hunch. The hold in Pennsylvania is up to 120 hours.



These laws focus on mental illness, and they require that the individual be evaluated by mental-health-care experts. If a person can’t afford a lawyer, a public defender is provided. While judges can involuntarily commit an individual they believe is a danger to themselves or others, there is a range of options they can take, with the threat that other options can be followed up with involuntary commitment.

However, instead of using these laws, 17 states have now adopted Red Flag laws, with 13 states passing them since the shootings at the high school in Parkland, Fla. While Red Flag laws are often discussed in terms of mental illness and they are frequently used in connection with concerns about suicide, only one state’s law even mentions mental illness and none of the states requires that a mental-health expert be involved in evaluating the person.

And, unlike Baker Act statutes, these new laws don’t offer safeguards, such as providing a public defender for individuals who can’t afford a lawyer or covering their legal costs. When faced with legal bills that can easily amount to $10,000 for a hearing, few think that owning a gun justifies these costs.
*
*








						John Lott: We don’t need Red Flag laws – we have the tools in place to help the mentally ill and protect people’s rights
					

Baker Act statutes are a better alternative. They require an evaluation by a mental-health expert and a public defender is provided if needed.




					broadandliberty.com
				



*


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 4, 2021)

Coyote said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...




Wrong.....90% of murderers have long histories of crime and violence that should have them locked up for life.......but democrats keep letting them out.

You shitheads keep bringing up a registry as if registration of guns is a new concept....in every country where assholes like you were allowed to register guns, assholes like you then used the registry to ban and confiscate guns...without exception.......

The Criminology of Firearms
In 2004, the National Academy of Sciences reviewed 253 journal articles, 99 books, 43 government publications and some empirical research of its own about guns. The Academy could not identify any gun restriction that had reduced violent crime, suicide or gun accidents.

Why don't gun bans work? Because they rely on voluntary compliance by gun-using criminals. Prohibitionists never see this absurdity because they deceive themselves into thinking that, as Katherine Christoffel has said: "[M]ost shootings are not committed by felons or mentally ill people, but are acts of passion that are committed using a handgun that is owned for home protection."

*Christoffel, et al., are utterly wrong. The whole corpus of criminological research dating back to the 1890'sshows murderers "almost uniformly have a long history of involvement in criminal behavior," and that "[v]irtually all" murderers and other gun criminals have prior felony records — generally long ones.*

*While only 15 percent of Americans have criminal records, roughly 90 percent of adult murderers have prior adult records — exclusive of their often extensive juvenile records — with crime careers of six or more adult years including four major felonies. 


Gerald D. Robin, writing for the Academy of Criminal Justice Sciences,notes that, unlike ordinary gun owners, "the average murderer turns out to be no less hardened a criminal than the average robber or burglar."*


----------



## Coyote (Jun 4, 2021)

Maybe if this idiot had been required to take a basic gun safety course, her kid might not have shot her other kid because he wouldn't have gotten ahold of the gun in the first place.









						2-year-old child finds gun, accidentally shoots sibling in head
					

The woman’s 2-year-old daughter and 9-year-old son were left outside in her car while she and her boyfriend were allegedly inside visiting with a friend.




					www.wapt.com
				




You could even treat it like you do driving - start in highschool, offer optional classes to learn to shoot, learn to be safe, learn the protocals.


----------



## Coyote (Jun 4, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Penelope said:
> ...



Who's preventing the woman from getting a gun to deal with the stalker?

And why should she have to live in fear, always afraid he might be coming at her with a fire arm?  Just so he can "have his right"?  Ya, I know - more guns is the answer.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 4, 2021)

Coyote said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...




The purpose of my guns is to save my life and that of my family......so you are just wrong and stupid.

Americans use their guns 1.1 million times a year not to kill....but to save lives, from rape, brutal beatings, robberies and murders....often without firing a single shot...driving the criminals away, capturing the criminals and holding them for police or for the really stupid criminals wounding them.....of those 1.1 million times guns are used for self defense.....235 criminals pushed the attack to the point they had to be shot, and were unlucky in that the shots fired killed them..

Guns save lives.  Guns save innocent lives.


----------



## Coyote (Jun 4, 2021)

Hey...I just noticed there is a new 2nd A forum....the God's listened to us?


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 4, 2021)

Coyote said:


> Maybe if this idiot had been required to take a basic gun safety course, her kid might not have shot her other kid because he wouldn't have gotten ahold of the gun in the first place.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




2/3 of all accidental gun deaths of children are a result of parents who are criminals who have the guns illegally, you fucking doofus........

And how many children die of accidental gun deaths......out of 40 million or more children in the country...?

Fatal Injury and Violence Data | WISQARS | Injury Center | CDC

2019   0-14.....51

*2018......

Guns......54


More children die in cars and pools than from gun accidents.......you idiot.*


----------



## Coyote (Jun 4, 2021)

hadit said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > Blues Man said:
> ...


The problem is....in criminal related shootings....non-criminals get killed.

Other countries have equal rates of gangs and drug dealers....but not equal rates of deaths.  Or police deaths.


----------



## Coyote (Jun 4, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe if this idiot had been required to take a basic gun safety course, her kid might not have shot her other kid because he wouldn't have gotten ahold of the gun in the first place.
> ...



No indication that she was a criminal with an illegal gun.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 4, 2021)

Coyote said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...




Those other countries are now experiencing increased violence and gun crime because their welfare states have created fatherless homes....and those fatherless boys are now turning to violence and gangs.

Criminal related shootings happen in tiny areas of democrat party controlled cities......so nomal Americans are as safe or safer than in Europe....


----------



## Coyote (Jun 4, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > 2aguy said:
> ...



The PURPOSE of guns is to do one thing:  kill something.  Animal or human.

If it "saves lives" it also "takes lives".  And because of that, it behooves us to make sure people are as responsible and knowledgeable as possible.  Doing so does not prevent you from buying a gun (frankly if you can't hit what you're aiming at with it you have no business shooting it and if you don't how to behave responsibly with a gun, you have no business owning one).


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 4, 2021)

Coyote said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...




The press rarely goes that deep into the story....they drag the body of the dead child to the camera then leave.....

Again....600 million guns in private hands.....over 19.4 million American can carry guns for self defense.........in a country of over 320 million people and over 40 million children......

54 accidental gun deaths...

13 deaths of children 2 and under......

280 children 2 and under drowned......you idiot.....

Guns aren't the problem.......bathtubs and pools are...


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 4, 2021)

Coyote said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Yes it does.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 4, 2021)

Coyote said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



So....you then have no problem with a fee to vote, a test to vote, .....right?


----------



## Hugo Furst (Jun 4, 2021)

Coyote said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...





Coyote said:


> Who's preventing the woman from getting a gun to deal with the stalker?


extended waiting periods


----------



## Hugo Furst (Jun 4, 2021)




----------



## Coyote (Jun 4, 2021)

WillHaftawaite said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > 2aguy said:
> ...


Then do away with that.  Although...I understand the reasoning behind that one, it's suicide prevention in part.

But howabout not letting someone with a restraining order get a gun in the first place?


----------



## Coyote (Jun 4, 2021)

WillHaftawaite said:


> View attachment 497484


So...if my religion requires me to have multiple wives (oh god the estrogen nightmare!) - and the law says no...my right is infringed upon yes?


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 4, 2021)

Coyote said:


> WillHaftawaite said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...




The police do that.....and then they get a gun illegally......or simply murder the woman with a 9 dollar hatchet from Walmart....

An Illinois man has been sentenced to life in prison for killing his estranged wife with a hatchet.

A judge on Wednesday sentenced 40-year-old Cristian Loga-Negru, of Arlington Heights, Illinois. The Journal Times of Racine reports Loga-Negru will be eligible for parole in 30 years.









						Illinois man gets life in Wisconsin hatchet slaying of wife
					

An Illinois man has been sentenced to life in prison for killing his estranged wife with a hatchet.




					www.wsaw.com


----------



## Orangecat (Jun 4, 2021)

MarcATL said:


> let them buy weapons till their wallets *burst*.


Do you even* comprehend* how *stupid* that statement is?


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 4, 2021)

Coyote said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...




The government...

*Carol Bowne knew her best shot at defending herself from a violent ex was a gun, and not a piece of paper. And it was paperwork that left her unprotected when Michael Eitel showed up at her New Jersey home last week and stabbed her to death, say Second Amendment advocates, who charge local police routinely sit on firearms applications they are supposed to rule on within 30 days.*

*Bowne, 39, had a restraining order against Eitel when he killed her in her driveway last Wednesday, but she was still waiting for Berlin Township Police Chief Leonard Check to approve the gun permit she had applied for on April 21. Tragically, she had gone to the township police department just two days before her death to check on the status of her languishing application. In another indication of her fear of Eitel, Bowne had recently installed surveillance cameras around her home, and the equipment recorded the 45-year-old ex-con attacking her as she arrived home and got out of her car.*









						'No one helped her': NJ woman murdered by ex while awaiting gun permit
					

The recent murder of a New Jersey woman by a jilted ex-boyfriend has prompted outrage over the current gun laws in the Garden State after it was learned that the victim’s permit application had been delayed.




					www.foxnews.com
				




*But....in truth......this is the outcome you want.......you and the other anti-gunners don't want that woman to have a gun in the first place, and really don't want her to be able to carry that gun in public...

So for you, her being killed by her ex is the preferred outcome....since you don't want her to have that gun and you don't want her to be able to carry that gun....

That is the truth.*


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 4, 2021)

WillHaftawaite said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > 2aguy said:
> ...




Or simple refusal to give her the permit.......


----------



## Coyote (Jun 4, 2021)

2aguy said:


> WillHaftawaite said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


They can't arbritrarily do that - there are very few restrictions.


----------



## Hugo Furst (Jun 4, 2021)

Coyote said:


> WillHaftawaite said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...





Coyote said:


> But howabout not letting someone with a restraining order get a gun in the first place?



How do you stop him?

Put him on the 'No Buy List'?

Nothing going to stop him from borrowing, stealing, or buying one illegally.


----------



## Hugo Furst (Jun 4, 2021)

Coyote said:


> WillHaftawaite said:
> 
> 
> > View attachment 497484
> ...





Coyote said:


> So...if my religion requires me to have multiple wives



What does that have to do with the 2nd Amendment?


----------



## HereWeGoAgain (Jun 4, 2021)

Coyote said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



  Now you're catching on.
Cops dont hit what they're aiming at 60 to 70 percent of the time. Thats why we need high capacity magazines.


----------



## HereWeGoAgain (Jun 4, 2021)

Coyote said:


> Maybe if this idiot had been required to take a basic gun safety course, her kid might not have shot her other kid because he wouldn't have gotten ahold of the gun in the first place.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



  We used to have gun safety classes in school.....guess who ended them.


----------



## HereWeGoAgain (Jun 4, 2021)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...



  Whats so funny coyote?
Are you claiming driving is a right?


----------



## HereWeGoAgain (Jun 4, 2021)

Coyote said:


> HereWeGoAgain said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



       Sorry,the fact of the matter is driving isn't a right.
     You have to have insurance,a license,and inspection of your vehicle.


----------



## HereWeGoAgain (Jun 4, 2021)

Coyote said:


> WillHaftawaite said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



     A restraining order against them or against the perp?


----------



## BlackSand (Jun 4, 2021)

Coyote said:


> Guns should be handled like cars.  Maintain a registry, pass a basic gun safety and knowledge test, show you can hit something, and be licensed and insured.


.

Driving is a privilege and not a Constitutionally Protected Right.

In fact, I hope I don't get in trouble for telling you,
but that is a question on all 5 variants of the Driving Exam you have pass to get a License in the state where I live.

They are going to have to know that before they can pass the test here.

.​


----------



## HereWeGoAgain (Jun 4, 2021)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...



  So road kill Coyote...what exactly do you find funny?


----------



## Bootney Lee Farnsworth (Jun 4, 2021)

Coyote said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > okfine said:
> ...


And, yet, we are unmoved.

I don't give a fucking SHIT how many sob stories your bring up.  It's a pre-existing right, PERIOD!!!   Give it up now.


----------



## BluesLegend (Jun 5, 2021)

Democrats are okay with lots of people getting murdered and raped on the alter of liberal gun control, while they defund the police and turn over cities to murderers and rapists. The idiots have reached stupid critical mass. I would not be surprised of Dems start dropping dead of stupid overdoses.


----------



## Penelope (Jun 5, 2021)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe if this idiot had been required to take a basic gun safety course, her kid might not have shot her other kid because he wouldn't have gotten ahold of the gun in the first place.
> ...


Who?


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 5, 2021)

Coyote said:


> Maybe if this idiot had been required to take a basic gun safety course, her kid might not have shot her other kid because he wouldn't have gotten ahold of the gun in the first place.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe if people were required to take a test in order to drive there wouldn't be auto accidents


Oh wait.....


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 5, 2021)

Coyote said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Then you should be happy that the vast majority of gun owners use their guns for some other purpose.

And purpose is defined by the user so if most people will never use a gun to kill anyone then they obviously think the purpose of a firearm isn't killing


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 5, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> I'm not the right. I don't vote for republicans.


Whatever. 



Blues Man said:


> Gun manufacturers are only allowed to sell wholesale to licensed dealers. Licensed dealers are only allowed to sell to people who pass BG checks.
> 
> Gun manufacturers only make money on their sales to licensed dealers. Licensed dealers only make money on the legal sales of guns
> 
> Any illegal sale does not increase the profit of the manufacturers.



Sure they do.   

Why do people buy guns.  I know I make a lot of jokes about people like 2Aguy compensating for their tiny dicks, but the reality is, most people buy guns because they are scared little shits who really believe that guns make them safer.  (Shhh...Shhhh... go away, Kellerman!!!  We don't want to hear the opposite is true.)

So fear creates a market demand for a product that frankly, most people really don't have a need for.   How do you keep that fear going?  By making sure that enough nuts can get guns to keep violence in the headlines.   So you have shit like people from NY driving down to Florida or Virginia where the gun laws are lax and selling the guns at a profit.  The gun companies still made their money on the deal, and the fear it creates means that the 2AGuys of the world want to buy more and more guns, so they feel really, really safe.  

And to be fair, the media doesn't help, by putting the gang drive by and the mass shooter on the front page or the lede, while the much more common "domestic argument gone wrong" doesn't.  

You talk about background checks, and I say, "What background checks?"  Every time there is a mass shooting, we find out two things. 

1) Everyone in this person's life knew he was nuts. 
2) It was still way too easy for him to get a gun.   

You know, because gun ownership is a right, bestowed by the fact that a bunch of slave rapists couldn't define a Militia clearly.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 5, 2021)

2aguy said:


> We have win win solutions.....when someone uses a gun to commit a crime, we arrest them and put them in jail and then prison...


We have 2 million people in prison.  Prison isn't a deterrent. 



2aguy said:


> Wrong.....90% of murderers have long histories of crime and violence that should have them locked up for life.......but democrats keep letting them out.


Do you have a cite from this from a non-crazy source.  

We don't have enough prison space to lock people up.  We have a shortage of prison guards because no one really wants to do that job.  

So let's be blunt. We have 400,000 gun crimes in this country every year.  Of those, only 14,500 are murders.  Yes, we lock up the murderers, but does it make sense to lock up the guy who just happened to have a gun on him while not being white?  We'd fill up our prisons pretty quickly. 

We've quadrupled the prison population in the last 40 years?  Feel any safer?  Given how much time you spend obsessing on guns, I'm guessing probably not.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 5, 2021)

WillHaftawaite said:


> View attachment 497484


Good point.  There are no "rights", there are only privileges that the rest of society has agreed are fairly reasonable.  Any fool who thinks he has "rights" should look up "Japanese Americans, 1942".  As long as we have an understanding.  

So, case in point, after 9/11, we decided that we didn't have a right to just stroll on an airplane, and you got extra, extra scrutiny if you wanted to get on an airplane and your name was Mohammed.  All because back in 2001, 3000 people were killed because a bunch of guys hijacked some airplanes and flew them into buildings.  

yet, every year, 39,000 Americans die of gunshots.  That's like 13 9/11's, EVERY YEAR.  But do we make it harder to get a gun?  Nope.  Because unlike the airline industry, who realized that hijacking was probably bad for business, the gun industry has realized, gun violence is GREAT for business.  

"See, See... the Second Amendment says, "Right to keep and bear arms"

"Um, yeah, it also says, "Well regulated militias"


----------



## Penelope (Jun 5, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe if this idiot had been required to take a basic gun safety course, her kid might not have shot her other kid because he wouldn't have gotten ahold of the gun in the first place.
> ...


https://vpc.org/studies/gunsvscars16.pdf
Gun Deaths Outpace Motor Vehicle Deaths in 21 States and the District of Columbia in 2014


----------



## Polishprince (Jun 5, 2021)

Coyote said:


> Maybe if this idiot had been required to take a basic gun safety course, her kid might not have shot her other kid because he wouldn't have gotten ahold of the gun in the first place.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Why not MANDATORY gun safety courses in the government schools instead of "optional"? 

A lot of kids live in gun-free homes, but when they turn 18 they may make their own decision to have an arsenal in their domicile.

I've been a long time advocate for mandatory age appropriate gun safety training in the government schools from kindergarten through the penitentiary level.


----------



## Polishprince (Jun 5, 2021)

Penelope said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



Irrelevant statistic.   Most gun deaths are suicides.  I'd rather have someone shoot themselves in the head a couple of times to off themselves instead of throwing themselves in front of a train or taking a header off of a tall building and risking others.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 5, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not the right. I don't vote for republicans.
> ...


You opinions are just that yours.  As for you obsession with the penises of strange men, I think it has to do with something other than guns.

A gun is a tool that is all it is.  it happens to be the best tool for self defense.

It seems your issue is with the background check system.  All any dealer can do is follow the rules and regulations set out by the government.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 5, 2021)

Penelope said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...


Not accidental gun deaths.

Suicide doesn't count and murders are crimes.


----------



## Polishprince (Jun 5, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > We have win win solutions.....when someone uses a gun to commit a crime, we arrest them and put them in jail and then prison...
> ...




Actually, the crime rate has gone down since the 1970's pretty dramatically.   Films like the Death Wish series and Taxi Driver were pretty accurate portrayals of life in New York and a lot of other Heck Holes.

Between things like the  Biden Crime Bill aimed at super-predators and relaxed concealed carry laws, the crime rate was sinking.    In recent years, however, its started heading in the opposite direction as cops are being persecuted and are a lot more timid about confronting thugs.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 5, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> WillHaftawaite said:
> 
> 
> > View attachment 497484
> ...


Airplanes are private property and no one has any right to use the property of another without permission.  Airlines have handed  their security to the government and there is no violation of anyone's rights to deny them entry to an airplane.


----------



## JLW (Jun 5, 2021)

MarcATL said:


> I recently changed my stance on *gun-control*. I think it's a dead-end and only *harms *the Democratic Party.
> 
> Guns and the violence that accompanies it are too embedded in American culture, they *enshrined *it in their Constitution for Christ's sake.
> 
> ...


Marc, you are spot on.  I was thinking the same thing.  Dems should let the issue  go. Gun control is  dead in the water.   If there is ever going to be a real movement against guns and gun violence it will come from the bottom up and not from the top down.

Even then it will not be the laws that will necessarily make the difference, just a change in attitudes.


----------



## Dont Taz Me Bro (Jun 5, 2021)

MarcATL said:


> Dont Taz Me Bro said:
> 
> 
> > Don't blacks need guns to defend themselves against all the marauding bands of white supremacists out there anyway?
> ...


Considering it's blacks who have been doing the bulk of attacks against Asians, wouldn't we need them to defend ourselves against you?


----------



## HereWeGoAgain (Jun 5, 2021)

Penelope said:


> HereWeGoAgain said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



  Democrats.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 5, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > We have win win solutions.....when someone uses a gun to commit a crime, we arrest them and put them in jail and then prison...
> ...




90% of murderers have long histories of crime and violence....and should have been in prison at the time they committed the murder...

The Criminology of Firearms
In 2004, the National Academy of Sciences reviewed 253 journal articles, 99 books, 43 government publications and some empirical research of its own about guns. The Academy could not identify any gun restriction that had reduced violent crime, suicide or gun accidents.

Why don't gun bans work? Because they rely on voluntary compliance by gun-using criminals. Prohibitionists never see this absurdity because they deceive themselves into thinking that, as Katherine Christoffel has said: "[M]ost shootings are not committed by felons or mentally ill people, but are acts of passion that are committed using a handgun that is owned for home protection."

*Christoffel, et al., are utterly wrong. The whole corpus of criminological research dating back to the 1890'sshows murderers "almost uniformly have a long history of involvement in criminal behavior," and that "[v]irtually all" murderers and other gun criminals have prior felony records — generally long ones.*

*While only 15 percent of Americans have criminal records, roughly 90 percent of adult murderers have prior adult records — exclusive of their often extensive juvenile records — with crime careers of six or more adult years including four major felonies. *

*Gerald D. Robin, writing for the Academy of Criminal Justice Sciences,notes that, unlike ordinary gun owners, "the average murderer turns out to be no less hardened a criminal than the average robber or burglar."*



It doesn't matter if we have prisons if the democrat party keeps letting the violent gun offenders who do 95% of all the shooting are released over and over again no matter how often they are arrested for crimes with guns......

1.1 million Americans use their legal guns to save lives each year according to the Centers for Disease Control....1.5 million according to the Department of Justice and that was back in the 90s before over 19.4 million Americans started carrying guns in public for self defense....

10,235 gun murders in 2019 according to the FBI and the majority of the victims are criminals......murdered during crimes or the lifestyle....


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 5, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not the right. I don't vote for republicans.
> ...




We know that background checks have no effect when the person who buys the gun has no criminal record, you asshole.....

The Pulse Night Club shooter....

--passed a complete background check for his job as a security officer

--passed a federal background check for each of the gun he purchased...every single gun

--someone where he worked reported him as a possible terrorist....the FBI took the case....he was interviewed 3 times by trained FBI interrogators, he had another complete, total background check done directly by Federal agents.....he had an undercover approach by FBI agents

he passed everything.....then he went on to target the Pulse Night club, a gun free zone...his original target was Disneyland/World...but when he checked it out it had too many good guys with guns there......he didn't even know Pulse was a gay club......

Background checks do nothing to stop criminals since they steal their guns or use straw buyers who can pass any background check....and they don't stop mass public shooters because they have no criminal history before the attack....

And the mentally ill shooters?  We know that most if not all of them were known to police and other authorities and the government failed.....


600 million guns in private hands.....over 19.4 million Americans can carry guns in public for self defense.....

How many mass public shootings?

2020....1
2019......10

2018.....12....

How many killed?  

2020....5
2019....73
2018.....93

More people die from lawn mowers....about 100 a year.....and falling off ladders, about 300 a year, than die in mass public shootings....

You have no rational argument for what you believe.....


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 5, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> WillHaftawaite said:
> 
> 
> > View attachment 497484
> ...




Liar.......

10,235 gun murders with majority of victims criminal engaged in crime or the criminal lifestyle...

23,941 gun suicides......

Suicide is not a gun issue....

Fact Check, Gun Control and Suicide

There is no relation between suicide rate and gun ownership rates around the world. 

 According to the 2016 World Health Statistics report, (2) suicide rates in the four countries cited as having restrictive gun control laws have suicide rates that are comparable to that in the U. S.:  Australia, 11.6, Canada, 11.4, France, 15.8, UK, 7.0, and USA 13.7 suicides/100,000.  By comparison, Japan has among the highest suicide rates in the world, 23.1/100,000, but gun ownership is extremely rare, 0.6 guns/100 people.   
Suicide is a mental health issue.  If guns are not available other means are used.  Poisoning, in fact, is the most common method of suicide for U. S. females according to the _Washington Post_ (34 % of suicides), and suffocation the second most common method for males (27%). 
Secondly, gun ownership rates in France and Canada are not low, as is implied in the _Post _article.  The rate of gun ownership in the U. S. is indeed high at 88.8 guns/100 residents, but gun ownership rates are also among the world’s highest in the other countries cited.  Gun ownership rates in these countries are are as follows:  Australia, 15, Canada, 30.8, France, 31.2, and UK 6.2 per 100 residents. (3,4) Gun ownership rates in Saudia Arabia are comparable to that in Canada and France, with 37.8 guns per 100 Saudi residents, yet the lowest suicide rate in the world is in Saudia Arabia (0.3 suicides per 100,000).
Third, recent statistics in the state of Florida show that nearly one third of the guns used in suicides are obtained illegally, putting these firearm deaths beyond control through gun laws.(5)
Fourth, the primary factors affecting suicide rates are personal stresses, cultural, economic, religious factors and demographics.  According to the WHO statistics, the highest rates of suicide in the world are in the Republic of Korea, with 36.8 suicides per 100,000, but India, Japan, Russia, and Hungary all have rates above 20 per 100,000; roughly twice as high as the U.S. and the four countries that are the basis for the _Post_’s calculation that gun control would reduce U.S. suicide rates by 20 to 38 percent.  Lebanon, Oman, and Iraq all have suicide rates below 1.1 per 100,000 people--less than 1/10 the suicide rate in the U. S., and Afghanistan, Algeria, Jamaica, Haiti, and Egypt have low suicide rates that are below 4 per 100,000 in contrast to 13.7 suicides/100,000 in the U. S. 
========

Suicide rates: An overview

Methods of suicide vary by sex and age​Over the past ten years, the most common method of suicide in Canada has been hanging (44%), which includes strangulation and suffocation; followed by poisoning (25%) and firearm use (16%).
Males were most likely to commit suicide by hanging (46%) while females most often died by poisoning (42%) (Chart 2). Males (20%) were far more likely to use firearms than females (3%).


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 5, 2021)

Penelope said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



You guys always lie.....you have to mix suicide into the gun deaths to even get close to car deaths....cars kill more people than guns every single year when you don't dishonestly use suicide to pack your numbers......


Wrong......

2019...

Gun murder...10,235 

Gun accidents....486

Fatal Injury and Violence Data | WISQARS | Injury Center | CDC

2019....486

cars....37,595


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 5, 2021)

Penelope said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...




You don't even research....you just spew whatever left wing talking point they pump into your tiny brain...

FBI...gun murder 2014....

8,124

Gun accidental death....461


Car deaths....35,398....





			Broker Version 9.4 (Build 1366)
		










						Expanded Homicide Data Table 8
					





					ucr.fbi.gov
				





Your post isn't even remotely true, you lying asshole.....you just repeated what the anti-gun extremists made up.....


----------



## Juicin (Jun 5, 2021)

Coyote said:


> Penelope said:
> 
> 
> > okfine said:
> ...



I mean if Elon can have a gun then so can I

Not that complicated


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 5, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> A gun is a tool that is all it is. it happens to be the best tool for self defense.



Uh, if that were the case, then why do we have 39,000 gun deaths a year, and very few of them are "Self-Defense"?  

It's like saying your Pet Pit Bull is great at guarding the house, even though he's never chased away any burglars but he has managed to maul several of the neighborhood kids. 




Blues Man said:


> It seems your issue is with the background check system. All any dealer can do is follow the rules and regulations set out by the government.



Nope, my problem is with how the gun industry think up new ways to beat the background check system.  

But I've got a great solution to that.  The Gun Industry can totally run the background check system. 

And then we allow families of gun violence victims to sue the gun industry.


----------



## MarcATL (Jun 5, 2021)

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


> Considering it's blacks who have been doing the bulk of attacks against Asians, wouldn't we need them to defend ourselves against you?


You're a slave to media inventions I see.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 5, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > A gun is a tool that is all it is. it happens to be the best tool for self defense.
> ...



*Uh, if that were the case, then why do we have 39,000 gun deaths a year, and very few of them are "Self-Defense"?

2019....*
*










						Fatal Injury and Violence Data | WISQARS | Injury Center | CDC
					

WISQARS fatal injury data shows the number of injury deaths and death rates by intent and mechanism. The fatal injury applications include Fatal Injury Reports, Leading Causes of Death, Cost of Injury Reports, and Fatal Injury Data Visualization.




					www.cdc.gov
				




Accidental gun death...

481

Gun murder....

10,235  (FBI homicide table 8)

So where is the rest of your number?  Since gun deaths do not equal your number?

YOu have to lie, and use suicide to push your number up....

Gun suicide, 2019...

23,941....

You can't get anywhere near the actual number 34, 657 without lying and using suicide.....and suicide isn't a gun issue, it is a mental health issue.....*

The gun industry doesn't do anything to beat any background check system......criminals steal guns...defeating any background check system.....criminals use straw buyers who can pass any background check, defeating the background check system......mass public shooters have no criminal record, and therefore, the system does not stop them from getting guns...since they are not criminals at the time they bought the gun......


----------



## MarcATL (Jun 5, 2021)

Orangecat said:


> Do you even* comprehend* how *stupid* that statement is?


Nope. Care to *explain* how?


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 5, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Uh, if that were the case, then why do we have 39,000 gun deaths a year, and very few of them are "Self-Defense"?





2aguy said:


> You can't get anywhere near the actual number 34, 657 without lying and using suicide.....and suicide isn't a gun issue, it is a mental health issue.....



Actually, the murder number is more like 14,500 a year.   Which does push total deaths up to 39,000.  

And yes, we'd have less suicides if guns were readily available.


----------



## Bob Blaylock (Jun 5, 2021)

MarcATL said:


> I recently changed my stance on *gun-control*. I think it's a dead-end and only *harms *the Democratic Party.
> 
> Guns and the violence that accompanies it are too embedded in American culture, they *enshrined *it in their Constitution for Christ's sake.
> 
> ...



  Your kind spent much of the past year giving the American people a very vivid demonstration as to why we need to keep our right to keep and bear arms, and why we need government top keep its filthy hands off of this right.

  Subhuman criminal/terrorist filth, under the banners of _“Antifa”_ and _“Black *Lies* Matter”_, rampaging, rioting, looting, burning, destroying, and the authorities standing back and letting it happen, not lifting a finger to protect the safety, well-being, and interests of actual human beings against these subhuman animals; sometimes even openly giving aid and support to this filth.

  You've shown us why we need to possess the very sort of weapons that your masters want to take away from us, to protect ourselves from you violent pieces of shit.


----------



## Bob Blaylock (Jun 5, 2021)

Harry Dresden said:


> your last sentence is a crock of shit joe....you just ate up some anti gun bullshit....



  Everything that Incel Joe just said in that post is a crock of shit, as is almost everything he says, anywhere, on any topic.


----------



## Bob Blaylock (Jun 5, 2021)

Coyote said:


> Guns should be handled like cars. Maintain a registry, pass a basic gun safety and knowledge test, show you can hit something, and be licensed and insured.



  Right.

  Make sure government has records letting them know where every gun is, and who has them.

  That way, when an administration comes into power that wants to take them all away, they'll know who to go after.

  Better yet, just make every gun owner wear a yellow star, and have a number tattooed on his wrist.


----------



## Coyote (Jun 5, 2021)

Bob Blaylock said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Guns should be handled like cars. Maintain a registry, pass a basic gun safety and knowledge test, show you can hit something, and be licensed and insured.
> ...


I have a drivers license.  My car is registered.  For that matter so are my dogs.

The government knows what cars and dogs I have and where they are.  I don't have a yellow star or a tattoo.

Don't you think it's a bit pathetic to compare yourself to a victim of the Holocaust?


----------



## yidnar (Jun 5, 2021)

MarcATL said:


> I recently changed my stance on *gun-control*. I think it's a dead-end and only *harms *the Democratic Party.
> 
> Guns and the violence that accompanies it are too embedded in American culture, they *enshrined *it in their Constitution for Christ's sake.
> 
> ...


i sense that you may be gradually becoming a conservative .. though you still have a long way to go .... the next step is when you stop sucking cock .


----------



## Bob Blaylock (Jun 5, 2021)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> It's a wedge issue used by the right to divide the American people and deflect from real issues Republicans have no answer for, like abortion.



  We most certainly do have an answer.  Government must obey the law, especially the Constitution which is the highest law.  And the Second Amendment, being part of that highest law, means that government is to keep its filthy hands away from the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

  Beyond that, what I would propose is a law to give the Constitution much-needed teeth.  Any piece of shit who, while in public office, has any willing part in enacting, enforcing, or applying any blatantly unconstitutional action on behalf of government, needs to be removed from office, imprisoned for no less than twenty years consecutively per offence, and barred for life from ever again holding any job or position in government.


----------



## Bob Blaylock (Jun 5, 2021)

Coyote said:


> I have a drivers license. My car is registered. For that matter so are my dogs.
> 
> The government knows what cars and dogs I have and where they are. I don't have a yellow star or a tattoo.
> 
> Don't you think it's a bit pathetic to compare yourself to a victim of the Holocaust?



  There is no credible movement trying to deprive you of your right to own a car or a dog.

  The same is not true of arms.


----------



## Bob Blaylock (Jun 5, 2021)

2aguy said:


> If they are in the country illegally, they broke the law...they need to be arrestd [sic], sent home, and then they can actually use the legal process to enter the country....that is a hard concept for your tiny brain, but that is how it has to work.



  I have to disagree with allowing those who have ever been caught illegally in this country ever being allowed legally to return.

  As long as there is even one person waiting, going through the process to immigrate legally to this country, it is absolutely unjustifiable to allow an invading criminal to cut in line ahead of him,.


----------



## Bob Blaylock (Jun 5, 2021)

Coyote said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > WillHaftawaite said:
> ...



  And yet, in the case that was cited a few posts before yours, they did exactly that.

  But of course, according to the Constitution, it's not legal to have even required that license in the first place; it's not legal for any level of government to have interfered in any way with that woman's rights to obtain and posses a a gun with which to defend herself.

  But they did.  Illegally, they required her to obtain a permit, and illegally, they dragged their feet in issuing that permit that they had no authority to require in the first place, and a a result, this woman was murdered.

  Her blood is on their hands, and on your hands, and on the hands of everyone who advocates lawless disobedience to the Second Amendment.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 5, 2021)

Bob Blaylock said:


> Your kind spent much of the past year giving the American people a very vivid demonstration as to why we need to keep our right to keep and bear arms, and why we need government top keep its filthy hands off of this right.
> 
> Subhuman criminal/terrorist filth, under the banners of _“Antifa”_ and _“Black *Lies* Matter”_, rampaging, rioting, looting, burning, destroying, and the authorities standing back and letting it happen, not lifting a finger to protect the safety, well-being, and interests of actual human beings against these subhuman animals; sometimes even openly giving aid and support to this filth.
> 
> You've shown us why we need to possess the very sort of weapons that your masters want to take away from us, to protect ourselves from you violent pieces of shit.



Mormon Bob, you are a hate crime looking for a place to happen.  

So tell me, what did all the guns you all stockpiled do, exactly?  Did you all launch a counter offensive to retake the cities?  Nope.


----------



## Bob Blaylock (Jun 5, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Yes, we lock up the murderers, but does it make sense to lock up the guy who just happened to have a gun on him while not being white?



  Who is advocating that a man should be locked up if his only _“crime”_ is _“to have a gun on him while not being white?”_


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 5, 2021)

Bob Blaylock said:


> Who is advocating that a man should be locked up if his only _“crime”_ is _“to have a gun on him while not being white?”_



Well, apparently 2TinyGuy is.  I mean, if he really thinks that owning a gun in a God Given right, why is he complaining anyone has one?


----------



## Bob Blaylock (Jun 5, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Bob Blaylock said:
> 
> 
> > Who is advocating that a man should be locked up if his only _“crime”_ is _“to have a gun on him while not being white?”_
> ...



  So where did anyone actually say such a thing?

  As is usual for you, you're just making shit up.  And obsessing over your projection of what appear to be your own sexual inadequacies, on someone else.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 5, 2021)

Bob Blaylock said:


> So where did anyone actually say such a thing?
> 
> As is usual for you, you're just making shit up. And obsessing over your projection of what appear to be your own sexual inadequacies, on someone else.



I'm not the one fixating on guns every day....  so there's that.  

You guys seem to be compensating, though.  

Clearly, he thinks people should be locked up for merely possessing a gun.  It's an idiotic position, mostly because, we just don't have the prison space.  There are 400,000 gun crimes a year.  If we locked up everyone charged with gun possession, we'd max out our prison space in 5 years.  That assumes we don't lock anyone up for anything else.  

Here's the thing.  The police make 10 million arrests every year.  We can't send all those people to jail.  Some of them are going to get probation or suspended sentences.  Most of them will get the idea and keep out of trouble. 

Some will commit other infractions.  Some might even commit real crimes, and then we'll have to deal with them. 

You can't go with the position that "A Gun is a God Given right" and then bitch "Oh my god, he had a gun when we caught him on an unrelated incident." 

If guns and prisons were the route to a safer society, we'd have the lowest crime rates in the Free World, not the highest.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 5, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Bob Blaylock said:
> 
> 
> > So where did anyone actually say such a thing?
> ...




We keep the ones who shoot people locked up...you doofus.....we keep the felons caught with illegal guns locked up...you doofus...that lowers the gun crime and gun murder rate 95%.....instead, the democrats keep letting those guys out...and they shoot people...


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Jun 5, 2021)

2aguy said:


> C_Clayton_Jones said:
> 
> 
> > pknopp said:
> ...


In order for conservatives to keep the wedge issue of ‘gun control’ alive, they contrive and propagate lies about ‘confiscation’ and other like nonsense – such is the right’s dishonesty and contempt for the truth.


----------



## Bob Blaylock (Jun 5, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Clearly, he thinks people should be locked up for merely possessing a gun



  Where is anyone saying that?  Surely you can link to a specific post.

  But then, both you and I know that you're lying.  It's what you do, Incel Joe.  It's what you are.  Pigs wallow in mud.  Flies eat shit.  Flounders lay on the ocean floor.  Incel Joe lies.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Jun 5, 2021)

52ndStreet said:


> You should not have to have a license or permit to buy a Gun or Assault rifle. The constitution gives every adult citizen the right to bear arms. License, permits, or why do you need a gun, are all infringements on your 2nd amendment right to bear arms.


Wrong.

The courts have consistently held that licenses and permits to possess and carry guns are perfectly Constitutional.

The Supreme Court has never ruled to invalidate measures requiring a license or permit.

Gun licenses and permits are in no manner an ‘infringement’ in the Second Amendment right.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Jun 5, 2021)

2aguy said:


> your way disarms normal Americans in the face of violent criminals and future, out of control government.


This is a lie.

No one advocates for ‘disarming’ anyone.

And although the Second Amendment codifies the right to possess a firearm pursuant to lawful self-defense, it does not authorize insurrectionist dogma and the wrongheaded notion that citizens alone have the ‘right’ to overthrow a lawfully elected government reflecting the will of the people because a minority of gunowners incorrectly perceive that government to have become ‘out of control.’


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Jun 5, 2021)

BluesLegend said:


> Democrats are okay with lots of people getting murdered and raped on the alter of liberal gun control, while they defund the police and turn over cities to murderers and rapists. The idiots have reached stupid critical mass. I would not be surprised of Dems start dropping dead of stupid overdoses.


This a a lie.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Jun 5, 2021)

Johnlaw said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > I recently changed my stance on *gun-control*. I think it's a dead-end and only *harms *the Democratic Party.
> ...


It doesn’t make any difference what Democrats do, of course – conservatives will keep the ‘gun control’ lie alive, to keep their wedge issue viable, and propagate conspiracy theories about Democrats wanting to ‘disarm’ Americans.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Jun 5, 2021)

Bob Blaylock said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > Guns should be handled like cars. Maintain a registry, pass a basic gun safety and knowledge test, show you can hit something, and be licensed and insured.
> ...


Truly idiotic and ridiculous hyperbole – and comparing oneself to Holocaust victims is particularly reprehensible.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Jun 5, 2021)

Bob Blaylock said:


> C_Clayton_Jones said:
> 
> 
> > It's a wedge issue used by the right to divide the American people and deflect from real issues Republicans have no answer for, like abortion.
> ...


It’s a wedge issue – indeed, a non-issue – contrived by conservatives to use against political opponents and pander to the base, to deflect from the fact that conservatives have no solutions to real problems, and that Republicans are incapable of sound, responsible governance.

“Hey, look over here! ‘Liberals’ are going to ‘take your guns.’”


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Jun 5, 2021)

Bob Blaylock said:


> There is no credible movement trying to deprive you of your right to own a car or a dog.
> 
> The same is not true of arms.


Another lie.

There is no credible movement trying to deprive you of your right to possess a firearm.


----------



## Orangecat (Jun 6, 2021)

MarcATL said:


> Orangecat said:
> 
> 
> > Do you even* comprehend* how *stupid* that statement is?
> ...


The fact that you need it explained is sublime.
Here's your post regarding people buying guns and ammo:


Orangecat said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > let them buy weapons till their wallets *burst*.


What kind of idiot thinks that spending money causes a wallet to "burst"? 
Plus, "till" is not a contraction of "until". That would be 'til.


----------



## Batcat (Jun 6, 2021)

Rambunctious said:


> Think about our weak leader we have today in Joe....China could invade the USA and walk right down Main street and Joe wouldn't stop them...what would happen if none of us had guns?....


The Chinese own Joe Biden because they bought him while he was Obama’s VP.  One of the biggest problems in our nation is the people we elect tend to sell their influence in various “pay for play” games. Such games are not always illegal but they are definitely unethical. The Swamp got its name for good reason.


----------



## Colin norris (Jun 6, 2021)

Rambunctious said:


> Think about our weak leader we have today in Joe....China could invade the USA and walk right down Main street and Joe wouldn't stop them...what would happen if none of us had guns?....



Nothing.  You wouldn't have the guts to take on the Chinese with those relics of your grandfather's. 
If they did invade, the military would kb oiw of it long before anyone else and would act accordingly as they should and will. You wouldn't get a look in. 
So, don't give me that crap about your guns intended use.


----------



## Colin norris (Jun 6, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...


Democrats are not attempting a gun control agenda. It wouldn't hurt if some restrictions to access of assault rifles etc be abuse no peaceful person has any use for them other than ego. That's a fact. 

What would be wrong with more stringent background checks? The NRA vigorously opposed this because of fear too many of their suckers would be found insane. 

No government has the courage to take on gun control period.  Most gun owners  still believe they are used for personal protection or eradicating tyrants.  
Both are bullshit. 
It's a state of mind by owners.  It's that state of mind which has to change. 

As I said before, what about the restriction on the sale of ammo? Laugh at it if you like but ammo is not mentioned in the 2nd amendment.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 6, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > A gun is a tool that is all it is. it happens to be the best tool for self defense.
> ...


You can't defend yourself from suicide

And why do you think a successful act of self defense must end in a person's death?  Personally I think it's preferable that no one dies and the criminal is thrown in prison.  The mere act of pointing a gun at someone is often all it takes to diffuse a situation.

And a gun is nothing like a dog since a gun can't do anything on its own

and gun dealers cannot get around the background check system unless they want to break the law and I'll wager that an extremely small percentage of FFL licensed dealers do that.

And gun manufacturers are not responsible for the crimes people commit.

But hey let's hold all manufacturers to the same standard and allow people to sue all manufacturers of products that cause harm to people in any way.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 6, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Bob Blaylock said:
> 
> 
> > So where did anyone actually say such a thing?
> ...


No you fixate on other men's penises.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 6, 2021)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> 52ndStreet said:
> 
> 
> > You should not have to have a license or permit to buy a Gun or Assault rifle. The constitution gives every adult citizen the right to bear arms. License, permits, or why do you need a gun, are all infringements on your 2nd amendment right to bear arms.
> ...




They are not......the courts also thought separate but equal was Constitutional as they did slavery and returning slaves who escaped to free states....

In fact......the Supreme Court has ruled that charging a fee for the exercise of a Right is, in fact, unConstitutional...so any license or permit where you have to pay for them is unConstitutional....

what do you say about that Clayton?  Clayton doesn't read my posts so someone please ask him/her/it that question...

And the Supreme Court found Poll Taxes and Literacy Tests unConstitutional as well...so any tax on the Right to own a gun is unConstitutional as well as is any mandatory test to exercise a Right......explain that Clayton...

Clayton....please explain your last post in relation to this actual Supreme Court ruling....

Murdock v. Pennsylvania 319 U.S. 105 (1943)

Held:
- A municipal ordinance which, as construed and applied, requires religious colporteurs to pay *a license tax as a condition to the pursuit of their activities, is invalid under the Federal Constitution as a denial of freedom of speech, press and religion.*


*- A State may not impose a charge for the enjoyment of a right granted by the Federal Constitution.*


- The flat license tax here involved restrains in advance the Constitutional liberties of press and religion, and inevitably tends to suppress their exercise

Opinion:
..*.It is contended, however, that the fact that the license tax can suppress or control this activity is unimportant if it does not do so. But that is to disregard the nature of this tax. It is a license tax -- a flat tax imposed on the exercise of a privilege granted by the Bill of Rights. A state may not impose a charge for the enjoyment of a right granted by the Federal Constitution....*
... The power to impose a license tax on the exercise of these freedoms is indeed as potent as the power of censorship which this Court has repeatedly struck down...


..*. It is a flat license tax levied and collected as a condition to the pursuit of activities whose enjoyment is guaranteed by the First Amendment. Accordingly, it restrains in advance those constitutional liberties of press and religion, and inevitably tends to suppress their exercise...*
Murdock v. Pennsylvania 319 U.S. 105 (1943)

A license tax Clayton...........you don't know what you are talking about...


----------



## hadit (Jun 6, 2021)

Coyote said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...


Let's be realistic here. With the number of guns currently in circulation, a ban would only leave the law abiding unarmed. You could MAYBE have something different with a relative handful of guns out there, but not now. It's wishful thinking, and you would only make criminals out of a lot of otherwise completely law abiding citizens.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 6, 2021)

2aguy said:


> We keep the ones who shoot people locked up...you doofus.....we keep the felons caught with illegal guns locked up...you doofus...that lowers the gun crime and gun murder rate 95%.....instead, the democrats keep letting those guys out...and they shoot people...



They shoot people because the Gun Industry has flooded our streets with guns.  

Other countries that ban guns... don't have to lock up millions of people.. and don't have five figure murder rates.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 6, 2021)

hadit said:


> Let's be realistic here. With the number of guns currently in circulation, a ban would only leave the law abiding unarmed. You could MAYBE have something different with a relative handful of guns out there, but not now. It's wishful thinking, and you would only make criminals out of a lot of otherwise completely law abiding citizens.



Okay, let's be realistic.  

A gun ban in and of itself would probably be impractical, but putting limits on NEW guns would keep them out of the wrong hands.  

The thing is, every time there is a mass shooting, it's not done with the gun that has been sitting in someone's closet since the 1990's.  It's done with the gun that someone just bought, who slipped by a background check because the gun industry has so watered down that process it's impossible to catch them before they go on a rampage. 

The NRA and gun industry WANT rampages.  They sell more guns.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 6, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> No you fixate on other men's penises.



Yet, that whole long discussion, and the only thing you can focus on is "Joe made a dick joke".


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Jun 6, 2021)

2aguy said:


> C_Clayton_Jones said:
> 
> 
> > 52ndStreet said:
> ...


The courts have consistently held that licenses and permits to possess and carry guns are perfectly Constitutional.

The Supreme Court has never ruled to invalidate measures requiring a license or permit.

Gun licenses and permits are in no manner an ‘infringement’ on the Second Amendment right.


----------



## Bob Blaylock (Jun 6, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > No you fixate on other men's penises.
> ...



  You're not exactly doing a very good job of hiding your projection, nor of hiding the issues/deficiencies that clearly underlie that projection.

  There isn't anyway that you would actually know anything about the genitalia of other men who participate in this forum; only your own.  It only stands to reason that no matter how you try to project it, any issues you obsessively bring up about perceived deficiencies in the size of anyone's genitalia can only be about your own.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 6, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > We keep the ones who shoot people locked up...you doofus.....we keep the felons caught with illegal guns locked up...you doofus...that lowers the gun crime and gun murder rate 95%.....instead, the democrats keep letting those guys out...and they shoot people...
> ...




No......Republicans have lots of guns...republicans aren't the ones shooting people.....it isn't access to guns, it is fatherless homes creating boys with no role models or guidance who then use gangs as their families and use violence because they have no other means of dealing with life.

Other countries that ban guns...are now finding more and more guns on their streets...and hand grenades....criminals need guns to protect drug turf, and criminals are becoming more violent and aggressive especially as they lose fear and respect for police...which you now have in Europe....

If your beliefs and theories were correct, there wouldn't be a difference in how guns are used.....there is....and it shows that you don't know what you are talking about..

*As the below charts show, Democratic areas (measured by the party that controls the congressional district) are far more likely to experience almost all forms of malicious gun violence than Republican areas. These charts exclude suicides, for which data are not available on a congressional district basis, so it only breaks down the fraction of gun violence that is accidental or confrontational.*
*--------*

*A distinct pattern emerged: In Democratic regions of the country, which tend to be cities, people are more likely to be murdered with a gun than they are to shoot themselves to death.

In regions of the country won by Republicans, which tend to be rural areas and small towns, the opposite is true — people are more likely to shoot themselves to death than they are to be murdered with a gun.
----
In the most Democratic regions, gun violence is more often committed against another, crimes that probably generate more news coverage and fear. In the most Republican areas, it is more often committed against oneself, suicides that may not attract as much attention.*

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...prising-way-gun-violence-is-dividing-america/


If your beliefs and theories were correct, gun crime would not have dropped 75% as more people own and carry guns and gun murder would not have dropped as more people bought and carry guns....

Over the last 27 years, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 19.4 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2019...guess what happened...

New Concealed Carry Report For 2020: 19.48 Million Permit Holders, 820,000 More Than Last Year despite many states shutting down issuing permits because of the Coronavirus - Crime Prevention Research Center


-- gun murder down 49%

--gun crime down 75%

--violent crime down 72%

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

*Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.*

*What happened in 2015 to change the downward rate of gun murder and gun violence?The democrat party decided it was a good idea to attack and handicap the police......since 2015 they have been attacking the police non-stop......and the police have reacted by not pro-actively engaging criminals in democrat party controlled cities....*

Hard Data, Hollow Protests
*The reason for the current increase is what I have called the Ferguson Effect. *
Cops are backing off of proactive policing in high-crime minority neighborhoods, and criminals are becoming emboldened.
Having been told incessantly by politicians, the media, and Black Lives Matter activists that they are bigoted for getting out of their cars and questioning someone loitering on a known drug corner at 2 AM, many officers are instead just driving by. Such stops are discretionary; cops don’t have to make them. And when political elites demonize the police for just such proactive policing, we shouldn’t be surprised when cops get the message and do less of it.
*Seventy-two percent of the nation’s officers say that they and their colleagues are now less willing to stop and question suspicious persons, according to a Pew Research poll released in January. The reason is the persistent anti-cop climate. *
Four studies came out in 2016 alone rebuttingthe charge that police shootings are racially biased. If there is a bias in police shootings, it works in favor of blacks and against whites. That truth has not stopped the ongoing demonization of the police—including, now, by many of the country’s ignorant professional athletes. The toll will be felt, as always, in the inner city, by the thousands of law-abiding people there who desperately want more police protection.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 6, 2021)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > C_Clayton_Jones said:
> ...



*The Supreme Court has never ruled to invalidate measures requiring a license or permit.*

I showed  you the exact Supreme Court ruling that did just that....

And those courts are wrong.....in particular if there is a fee for the license and permits....

Are you familiar with the Supreme Court ruling Murdock v Pennsylvania?

Fees and licenses to engage in a Right are unConstitutional....

Murdock v. Pennsylvania 319 U.S. 105 (1943)

Held:
- A municipal ordinance which, as construed and applied, requires religious colporteurs* to pay a license tax* as a condition to the pursuit of their activities, is invalid under the Federal Constitution as a denial of freedom of speech, press and religion.



-* A State may not impose a charge for the enjoyment of a right granted by the Federal Constitution.*


- The flat license tax here involved restrains in advance the Constitutional liberties of press and religion, and inevitably tends to suppress their exercise

Opinion:
...It is contended, however, that the fact that the license tax can suppress or control this activity is unimportant if it does not do so. But that is to disregard the nature of this tax. 

It is a license tax -- a flat tax imposed on the exercise of a privilege granted by the Bill of Rights. A state may not impose a charge for the enjoyment of a right granted by the Federal Constitution....


... The power to impose a license tax on the exercise of these freedoms is indeed as potent as the power of censorship which this Court has repeatedly struck down...


... It is a flat license tax levied and collected as a condition to the pursuit of activities whose enjoyment is guaranteed by the First Amendment. 


Accordingly, it restrains in advance those constitutional liberties of press and religion, and inevitably tends to suppress their exercise...
Murdock v. Pennsylvania 319 U.S. 105 (1943)


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 6, 2021)

Bob Blaylock said:


> You're not exactly doing a very good job of hiding your projection, nor of hiding the issues/deficiencies that clearly underlie that projection.
> 
> There isn't anyway that you would actually know anything about the genitalia of other men who participate in this forum; only your own. It only stands to reason that no matter how you try to project it, any issues you obsessively bring up about perceived deficiencies in the size of anyone's genitalia can only be about your own.



Uh, guy, you are the one who seems obsessed, but never mind.  I mean, I really try to engage you guys on substantive discussions on your gun fetish, but it's kind of sad, really.   You guys live in a fact free world where you think that guns make you safer. 

When we are the most dangerous country in the industrialized world.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 6, 2021)

2aguy said:


> No......Republicans have lots of guns...republicans aren't the ones shooting people.....it isn't access to guns, it is fatherless homes creating boys with no role models or guidance who then use gangs as their families and use violence because they have no other means of dealing with life.
> 
> Other countries that ban guns...are now finding more and more guns on their streets...and hand grenades....criminals need guns to protect drug turf, and criminals are becoming more violent and aggressive especially as they lose fear and respect for police...which you now have in Europe....



Blah, blah, blah.  

I'm not sure why you want to take the places people actually live out of the equation.  

Um, yeah, grinding racism and poverty and wealth inequality are all problems we should address, too.  We won't.  

In many ways, gun violence is a symptom of other problems.  

But as stated, most victims of murders KNOW their killers.  It's not random street crime, it's a gun in the home making a bad situation worse.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 6, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Bob Blaylock said:
> 
> 
> > You're not exactly doing a very good job of hiding your projection, nor of hiding the issues/deficiencies that clearly underlie that projection.
> ...




We aren't the most dangerous country in the industrialized world...that is Germany....they murdered 12 million innocent men, women and children.  Our gun murder is confined, largely, to criminals murdering criminals......Germany murdered 12 million innocent people.....

That number dwarfs all of our gun crime ........


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 6, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > No......Republicans have lots of guns...republicans aren't the ones shooting people.....it isn't access to guns, it is fatherless homes creating boys with no role models or guidance who then use gangs as their families and use violence because they have no other means of dealing with life.
> ...



Yes...criminals know the criminals who murder them....the gang member who shoots the other gang member he sees at the drive thru of Mcdonalds, knew the other gang member....and when the daughter of the gang member is also shot....that isn't a normal family out for an evening.....

The drug dealer who is murdered by the rival drug dealer also knows the other drug dealer...who happens to also murder the baby momma who is also in the apartment with her baby daddy drug dealer boy friend.....

These are the vast majority of gun murder in the U.S. and they take place almost exclusively in democrat party controlled cities, where the democrat party has a policy of releasing these violent offenders no matter how many times they are arrested for illegal gun possession, illegal use of gun, and even shooting and murdering people with guns....

Stop the democrats from releasing gun criminals and our gun crime problem disappears.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Jun 6, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> A gun ban in and of itself would probably be impractical,


Not to mention un-Constitutional, particularly with regard to handguns.

Being realistic, there won’t be any ‘bans’ or limits on new guns, that ship has long sailed – there’s no political will in Washington to do so and this Supreme Court would never allow such legislation to stand.

Nor should there be any new ‘bans’ or limits as they’d have no effect on gun crime and violence, given the fact that there are enough AR 15s in the country for every man, woman, and child in the state of New York.

Last, more government and more laws simply isn’t the answer – Democrats are correct to abandon those efforts.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 6, 2021)

2aguy said:


> We aren't the most dangerous country in the industrialized world...that is Germany....they murdered 12 million innocent men, women and children. Our gun murder is confined, largely, to criminals murdering criminals......Germany murdered 12 million innocent people.....
> 
> That number dwarfs all of our gun crime ........


Uh, guy, it was a WORLD WAR.  70 million people died on all sides.   

I'm not worried about a war that happened 80 years ago, 20 years before I was even born.  

I worry about some maniac shooting up my workplace because an idiot like you made it easy for him to get a gun.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 6, 2021)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Not to mention un-Constitutional, particularly with regard to handguns.
> 
> Being realistic, there won’t be any ‘bans’ or limits on new guns, that ship has long sailed – there’s no political will in Washington to do so and this Supreme Court would never allow such legislation to stand.
> 
> ...



YOu don't give up on trying to solve a problem because it's too hard. 

So, yes, we aren't going to have a gun ban.  We can make it a lot harder to get new guns out there, and we can hold the gun industry responsible. 

The first thing I would do is repeal the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act (PLCAA).  One thing that we find is that when you do a trace on illicit guns, they come from a fraction of gun dealers who have decided to be irresponsible. 

For instance, the City of Chicago traced 850 illicit guns back to a single store in Indiana, where the gun selling rules are a lot more lax. 









						'Eye-popping numbers': Chicago sues Indiana gun store tied to 850 firearms recovered from crime scenes
					

The city of Chicago is suing an Indiana gun store it says is one of the main sources of illicit firearms for the criminal market.



					www.usatoday.com


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 6, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Yes...criminals know the criminals who murder them....the gang member who shoots the other gang member he sees at the drive thru of Mcdonalds, knew the other gang member....and when the daughter of the gang member is also shot....that isn't a normal family out for an evening.....



That's it, guy, keep just trying to write off our gun violence as "those people" dying.  

At some point, they'll get sick of dying and vote to take away your toys.


----------



## Colin norris (Jun 6, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Coyote said:
> 
> 
> > HereWeGoAgain said:
> ...



Out of control governments??? 
Rubbish.  Repuicans called Obama a terrorist, a Muslim and not even American. You lathered with generous terms of Marxism and Chinese communist party influence. 
You had redneck replyicans smashing the capitol to overthrow democracy you all treasure yet no one of you hypocrit gun toting wannabes fired a shot in either instance.  Not one.  You cheered when they smashed the capitol and did nothing. 
Don't tell me it's the home  of the brave.  
Person protection is another joke. 
You hypocrites.


----------



## HereWeGoAgain (Jun 6, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > Coyote said:
> ...



  Let me guess,you went to a liberal college and believed everything your marxist professors told you.


----------



## Colin norris (Jun 6, 2021)

HereWeGoAgain said:


> Colin norris said:
> 
> 
> > 2aguy said:
> ...



Forget about your irrelevant jibes. 
Refutethe things I've said or shut up. 
I know I'm right and you object to the truth being told. You are gutless.


----------



## HereWeGoAgain (Jun 6, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> HereWeGoAgain said:
> 
> 
> > Colin norris said:
> ...



  I laugh at your posts more than anything.
And trying to read your posts gives me a headache with your atrocious spelling and syntax.
    And I see you didnt deny my hypothesis so it must be true.
 Get back with me when you move out of your moms basement and start taking part in what we call the economy.


----------



## Bob Blaylock (Jun 6, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> Refutethe [sic] things I've said or shut up.



  You're not a moderator here.

  You're not even anyone who has been here very long.

  You're nobody.

  By what ersatz authority do you purport to try to boss around a user who's been here for more than a decade?


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 7, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > No you fixate on other men's penises.
> ...


When you continue to obssess on dick multiple times in every thread on guns it isn't a joke it's a pathology


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 7, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > Yes...criminals know the criminals who murder them....the gang member who shoots the other gang member he sees at the drive thru of Mcdonalds, knew the other gang member....and when the daughter of the gang member is also shot....that isn't a normal family out for an evening.....
> ...


The people doing most of the murdering won't care if you stop law abiding people from owning guns because they do not buy their guns legally.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 7, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> When you continue to obssess on dick multiple times in every thread on guns it isn't a joke it's a pathology



Nope, it's a joke, which is not funny if you are "Compensating".


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 7, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > We keep the ones who shoot people locked up...you doofus.....we keep the felons caught with illegal guns locked up...you doofus...that lowers the gun crime and gun murder rate 95%.....instead, the democrats keep letting those guys out...and they shoot people...
> ...


Funny thing is that most people who are locked up aren't locked up for crimes committed with a gun.

Guns don't cause crime.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 7, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> The people doing most of the murdering won't care if you stop law abiding people from owning guns because they do not buy their guns legally.



Except that if no one is manufacturing them, they'll have none to buy.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 7, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > When you continue to obssess on dick multiple times in every thread on guns it isn't a joke it's a pathology
> ...


I don't have a gun fetish.

A gun is nothing but a tool not unlike any of the hundreds of other tools I own.

And again gun manufacturers cannot sell guns to anyone but federally licensed gun dealers.  Licensed gun dealers cannot sell to anyone without performing a BG check.

So people who manufacture guns and the licensed dealers who sell them aren't the problem.  THE FUCKING CRIMINALS ARE THE PROBLEM


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 7, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > The people doing most of the murdering won't care if you stop law abiding people from owning guns because they do not buy their guns legally.
> ...



Sure they will.  There are hundreds of millions of guns in the country.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 7, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> Funny thing is that most people who are locked up aren't locked up for crimes committed with a gun.
> 
> Guns don't cause crime.



Um, yeah, because we have 400,000 gun crimes a year, and only room to lock up 2 million people.  That's why we can't lock up every idiot caught with a gun when he gets busted for dope. 

We also don't lock up most people caught with drugs, or most women who are busted for prostitution. 

Now, gun proliferation is only one dimension of the crime problem.  The others are addiction, poverty, mental illness, racism... and we are in no hurry to solve those, either.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 7, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> I don't have a gun fetish.
> 
> A gun is nothing but a tool not unlike any of the hundreds of other tools I own.
> 
> And again gun manufacturers cannot sell guns to anyone but federally licensed gun dealers. Licensed gun dealers cannot sell to anyone without performing a BG check.



Okay, then the gun dealers should have no problem with victims of gun crime being able to sue gun sellers, then.  Since they are totally on the up and up.  

Oh, no, wait.  No, they demanded legal immunity after the DC shooters won a big settlement.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 7, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> Sure they will. There are hundreds of millions of guns in the country.



Most of which aren't suitable for street crime, or aren't operational because they've been sitting in someone's closet for decades.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 7, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > Funny thing is that most people who are locked up aren't locked up for crimes committed with a gun.
> ...


And most times gun charges get dropped in plea deals.

And the only thing you are right about is that the powers that be don't really care about gun crimes because the people getting killed are mostly young minority urban criminals.

70 to 80% of all murders are relayed to inner city violence.

In Chicago the cops solve 47% of murders with White victims and only 22 % of murders with Black victims.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 7, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > I don't have a gun fetish.
> ...



Why should they be able to sue licensed gun dealers who are required by law to perform a BG check?


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 7, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> And most times gun charges get dropped in plea deals.
> 
> And the only thing you are right about is that the powers that be don't really care about gun crimes because the people getting killed are mostly young minority urban criminals.
> 
> ...



That probably has to do more with the fact that the Urban community doesn't trust the CPD. Given how many people went to prison because the CPD beat false confessions out of people, that's understandable.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 7, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > Sure they will. There are hundreds of millions of guns in the country.
> ...



You don't know much about guns.

Any gun can be serviceable for decades with simple maintenance.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 7, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> Why should they be able to sue licensed gun dealers who are required by law to perform a BG check?



Why not?  They clearly didn't perform a good enough background check.  

There's  a reason why we don't have gun vending machines.  The gun dealer is supposed to be able to make assessments like, "this guy shouldn't be able to get a gun!" 





Oh, wait, a gun dealer sold him a gun with a 100 Round clip.  Because he looks so stable and trustworthy.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 7, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > And most times gun charges get dropped in plea deals.
> ...



So what?

The problem is if the people who are actual victims of gun crime don't care enough to report it and the cops don't care enough to solve them it is obvious that these people most affected by gun crime care as little about it as the powers that be do.

THAT is the problem not the people who legally own and use guns.  And BTW the vast and overwhelming majority of gun owners are law abaiding and are not responsible for the criminals if a ridiculously small percentage of the population.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 7, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> You don't know much about guns.
> 
> Any gun can be serviceable for decades with simple maintenance.



I was in the army for 11 years, and my MOS was 76Y.  

That's my whole point.  The guy who bought a gun in the 1990's because he was really, really scared probably hasn't bother to maintain it.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 7, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > Why should they be able to sue licensed gun dealers who are required by law to perform a BG check?
> ...


The government sets the standard on BG checks not the dealer.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 7, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > You don't know much about guns.
> ...



More meaningless assumptions


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 7, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> So what?
> 
> The problem is if the people who are actual victims of gun crime don't care enough to report it and the cops don't care enough to solve them it is obvious that these people most affected by gun crime care as little about it as the powers that be do.
> 
> THAT is the problem not the people who legally own and use guns. And BTW the vast and overwhelming majority of gun owners are law abaiding and are not responsible for the criminals if a ridiculously small percentage of the population.



The vast majority of people flying are not Al Qaeda Terrorists, and here we are, 20 years later, still subjecting airline passengers to intrusive searches.  

The rest of us who don't have a gun fetish still have to put up with key-cards, security check points, militarized cops, active shooter drills, etc.  

If the rest of us have to put up with a little inconvenience to accommodate your fetish, you can put up with some to continue it.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 7, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> The government sets the standard on BG checks not the dealer.



That's my whole point. The government sets a standard.  Clearly, that standard was ignored with (Insert name of any mass shooter here.)  

Frankly, I want a gun dealer to tell a jury why he thought Joker Holmes needed a semi-automatic weapon with a 100 round clip.  

(And yes, I use the word clip to piss off the gun fetishists).


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 7, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > So what?
> ...


There is no comparison to airline security and guns.

And like I said I don't have a fetish.  I own a few guns.  Most of them are personal defense guns I can carry.  I own one shot gun and one rifle that I hardly ever use.

And I did put up with a little inconvenience to buy them and to get a permit to carry.

There is no need to make it any more difficult because no criminal would be able to buy a gun from a licensed dealer or qualify for a carry permit.

We have laws in place that we simple do not enforce and that is the problem.

ALL instances of criminal gun possession are federal crimes and yet no federal charges are ever levied in criminal gun cases.

LAw enforcement doesn't investigate crimes where poor people are victims because that's what the government wants.

You want to blame all of society's ills on people that will never commit a crime just because they happen to legally own a gun.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 7, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > The government sets the standard on BG checks not the dealer.
> ...


No it wasn't.

The guy had to pass a background check and the scope of that BG check is dictated by the government


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 7, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > We aren't the most dangerous country in the industrialized world...that is Germany....they murdered 12 million innocent men, women and children. Our gun murder is confined, largely, to criminals murdering criminals......Germany murdered 12 million innocent people.....
> ...




No...dipshit.....the 12 million were not casualties of war or collateral damage from the war....they were European citizens...innocent men, women and children collected by the socialists and then murdered........

The 12 million innocent men, women and children to this day outnumber the number of criminals who are murdered by other criminals here in the U.S......we can't even get close to that number in the 87 years since the war began.....they murdered 12 million in 15 years.......our gun murder of criminals murdering other criminals is 890,000 when you simply multiply 10,235, the number murdered with guns in 2019, by 87....

See the difference in numbers?

And again...Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times, on average, each year, to stop brutal rapes, robberies, knifings, beatings and murder.....

See the difference in numbers even then.....87 years of gun murder doesn't even come close to one year of legal self defense with a gun.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 7, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> C_Clayton_Jones said:
> 
> 
> > Not to mention un-Constitutional, particularly with regard to handguns.
> ...




Wrong...that store in Indiana is following every single law on the books...the criminals simply use straw buyers.....buyers with clean criminal histories, to buy their illegal guns....usually baby mommas of the criminals, or their grandmothers or mothers, often under the threat of violence...

You irrational focus on law abiding gun overs versus actually locking up the violent gun criminals doing the actual crime is insane........you want to punish gun makers, who are at least 3 removes from the actual criminals using the guns illegally....and then you want to let violent, repeat gun offenders out of prison cause....to many people in jail...

You are an idiot.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 7, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > When you continue to obssess on dick multiple times in every thread on guns it isn't a joke it's a pathology
> ...




600 million guns in private hands....over 19.4 million Americans can legally carry guns for self defense.......

1.1 million Americans use their legal guns to stop brutal rapes, robberies, knifings, beatings and murder......

The individuals committing almost all of the gun crime are not the law abiding gun owners but a tiny group of criminals who murder other criminals in the course of living as criminals........

So no...we don't fetishize guns.....idiots like you vote for democrats...the democrat party judges, prosecutors and politicians keep releasing that tiny population of actual violent gun criminals, over and over again.........90% of murderers have long histories of crime and violence and at the time of the murder should have been in jail or prison..but they were released by people like you, over and over again......

Look at any shooting in a democrat party controlled city...and you will find a criminal, with a long history of crime....not a normal, law abiding citizen.......who was either on bond at the time, out of prison on parole, or had one or more warrants for their arrest....

you hate gun owners, and don't care about actual gun criminals...


----------



## hadit (Jun 7, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > Let's be realistic here. With the number of guns currently in circulation, a ban would only leave the law abiding unarmed. You could MAYBE have something different with a relative handful of guns out there, but not now. It's wishful thinking, and you would only make criminals out of a lot of otherwise completely law abiding citizens.
> ...


I've told you before that you suck at reading minds. Get that helmet adjusted or add some foil to the left frontal lobe because it's just not picking up the signals very well. One could as easily accuse the gun grabbers of wanting the same thing because they get to run around and yell about grabbing guns, yet do nothing to actually prevent the violence in the first place. Take away the media sensationalism and they would have nothing to talk about and the issue would vanish.


----------



## Batcat (Jun 7, 2021)

MarcATL said:


> MisterBeale said:
> 
> 
> > I have no problem with gun owners being held _financially_ and criminally liable. . . however, if you make insurance mandatory?
> ...


Considering how many legal gun owners never misuse their weapons the insurance would likely be dirt cheap. 

People with concealed weapons permits for example have a better record with their firearms than cops. 






						Concealed Carry Permit Holders Crime Statistics (updated)
					

Check out the concealed carry permit holders crime statistics? We can tell you how many CCW permit holders have committed crimes in seven states.




					www.gunstocarry.com
				












						Permitted Gun Owners Are More Law Abiding Than Police
					

Comparison of crime data over two states and the general public versus police officers shows that CCW are most law-abiding.




					gunstoday.com


----------



## Batcat (Jun 7, 2021)

Coyote said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > I recently changed my stance on *gun-control*. I think it's a dead-end and only *harms *the Democratic Party.
> ...


With the exception of insurance you have basically described what is required to get a concealed weapons permit in Florida. 

Of course a registry of carry permit holders is maintained but not a registry of their firearms. Florida has no interest in banning and confiscating firearms so a registry is not only useless but illegal.

The 2020 Florida Statutes​790.335 Prohibition of registration of firearms; electronic records.—
(1) LEGISLATIVE FINDINGS AND INTENT.—
(a) The Legislature finds and declares that:
1. The right of individuals to keep and bear arms is guaranteed under both the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution and s. 8, Art. I of the State Constitution.
2. A list, record, or registry of legally owned firearms or law-abiding firearm owners is not a law enforcement tool and can become an instrument for profiling, harassing, or abusing law-abiding citizens based on their choice to own a firearm and exercise their Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms as guaranteed under the United States Constitution. Further, such a list, record, or registry has the potential to fall into the wrong hands and become a shopping list for thieves.
3. A list, record, or registry of legally owned firearms or law-abiding firearm owners is not a tool for fighting terrorism, but rather is an instrument that can be used as a means to profile innocent citizens and to harass and abuse American citizens based solely on their choice to own firearms and exercise their Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms as guaranteed under the United States Constitution.
4. Law-abiding firearm owners whose names have been illegally recorded in a list, record, or registry are entitled to redress.
(b) The Legislature intends through the provisions of this section to:
1. Protect the right of individuals to keep and bear arms as guaranteed under both the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution and s. 8, Art. I of the State Constitution.
2. Protect the privacy rights of law-abiding firearm owners.
(2) PROHIBITIONS.—No state governmental agency or local government, special district, or other political subdivision or official, agent, or employee of such state or other governmental entity or any other person, public or private, shall knowingly and willfully keep or cause to be kept any list, record, or registry of privately owned firearms or any list, record, or registry of the owners of those firearms.
(3) EXCEPTIONS.—The provisions of this section shall not apply to:
(a) Records of firearms that have been used in committing any crime.
(b) Records relating to any person who has been convicted of a crime.
(c) Records of firearms that have been reported stolen that are retained for a period not in excess of 10 days after such firearms are recovered. Official documentation recording the theft of a recovered weapon may be maintained no longer than the balance of the year entered, plus 2 years.
(d) Firearm records that must be retained by firearm dealers under federal law, including copies of such records transmitted to law enforcement agencies. However, no state governmental agency or local government, special district, or other political subdivision or official, agent, or employee of such state or other governmental entity or any other person, private or public, shall accumulate, compile, computerize, or otherwise collect or convert such written records into any form of list, registry, or database for any purpose.
(e)1. Records kept pursuant to the recordkeeping provisions of s. 790.065; however, nothing in this section shall be construed to authorize the public release or inspection of records that are made confidential and exempt from the provisions of s. 119.07(1) by s. 790.065(4)(a).
2. Nothing in this paragraph shall be construed to allow the maintaining of records containing the names of purchasers or transferees who receive unique approval numbers or the maintaining of records of firearm transactions.


			Statutes & Constitution        :View Statutes      :      Online Sunshine


----------



## MisterBeale (Jun 7, 2021)

Batcat said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > MisterBeale said:
> ...


I agree.

OTH?  If it is government mandated?

No, it won't be.

Once government got into the business of Higher Ed. funding, prices went through the roof.

Same with health insurance.

. . . and car insurance.

. . . if it is mandated by government, it WILL be expansive.


----------



## Batcat (Jun 7, 2021)

MisterBeale said:


> Batcat said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...


Fair point.


----------



## Oldestyle (Jun 7, 2021)

MarcATL said:


> I recently changed my stance on *gun-control*. I think it's a dead-end and only *harms *the Democratic Party.
> 
> Guns and the violence that accompanies it are too embedded in American culture, they *enshrined *it in their Constitution for Christ's sake.
> 
> ...


If the liberal wing of the Democratic Party gets it's way and "defunds" the Police...then the American people are smart enough to recognize that THEY and they alone are going to be the ones to protect themselves and their loved ones because the Police aren't coming!


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 8, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> There is no comparison to airline security and guns.
> 
> And like I said I don't have a fetish. I own a few guns. Most of them are personal defense guns I can carry. I own one shot gun and one rifle that I hardly ever use.
> 
> ...



Except they do all the time, that's the problem.  Every time we have a mass shooting, we find out the shooter had a criminal record or a history of mental illness and was still able to guy a gun. 

Case in point, the guy who shot up the Fed Ex Facility and killed a bunch of Sihks.  His own mother turned him in, because she thought he was dangerous.  The cops took his gun.  He was able to walk right into a gun store and buy more guns. 



2aguy said:


> 600 million guns in private hands....over 19.4 million Americans can legally carry guns for self defense.......



More like 300 million.  

We also have 

39,000 gun deaths
70,000 gun injuries
400,000 gun crimes
213 BILLION in economic losses due to guns.

We have to rearrange our entire society around the "Some nut might come in and start shooting the place up!" because you fetishists don't want to take an extra 10 minutes to make sure that someone who shouldn't have a gun can't get one.  



hadit said:


> One could as easily accuse the gun grabbers of wanting the same thing because they get to run around and yell about grabbing guns, yet do nothing to actually prevent the violence in the first place. Take away the media sensationalism and they would have nothing to talk about and the issue would vanish.



Uh, guy, what "media sensationalism".   We have 39,000 gun deaths a year.  106 people die every day from gun violence, and the vast majority of them don't make the news.  Not unless it's something really spectacular like Sandy Hook.   

The thing is, when we have a Sandy Hook, everyone gets upset, for about a day.  The Gun Fetishists keep on this every day, which is why we don't get change even when babies are murdered.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 8, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > There is no comparison to airline security and guns.
> ...



Suicide isn't gun violence.
Suicide is not a crime
Suicide is a choice.

Mass shootings barely account for 1% of all murders.

So if you're actually going to address the real problems I'm happy to debate them but that fact that you seem to want to focus on things that aren't really going to make a difference in actual crime and murder rates you are just wasting my time


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 8, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> Suicide isn't gun violence.
> Suicide is not a crime
> Suicide is a choice.
> 
> ...



Hey, go talk to someone who lost a family member to suicide about how it's no big deal.  

These are real problems, that the Gun Industry is benefiting from. 

But, hey, you might have to wait a couple days or undergo some extra scrutiny before you can fulfill your fetish.. that's the important thing.


----------



## Cellblock2429 (Jun 8, 2021)

MarcATL said:


> I recently changed my stance on *gun-control*. I think it's a dead-end and only *harms *the Democratic Party.
> 
> Guns and the violence that accompanies it are too embedded in American culture, they *enshrined *it in their Constitution for Christ's sake.
> 
> ...


/———/ WOWZA you actually made sense. Are you feeling OK this morning?


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 8, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > Suicide isn't gun violence.
> ...


I never said it's no big deal it just isn't a crime or violence issue.  And it certainly isn't a gun issue.

And the gun industry does not benefit from suicides.


----------



## Bootney Lee Farnsworth (Jun 8, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Uh, if that were the case, then why do we have 39,000 gun deaths a year, and very few of them are "Self-Defense"?


Because you're a lying POS.  More than half of those are suicides, which do not count.  Secondly, most self-defense incidents do not require a person to fire the weapon, but only display it to stop the aggressor from attacking.

Now, go fuck yourself.


----------



## Bootney Lee Farnsworth (Jun 8, 2021)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > C_Clayton_Jones said:
> ...


Then, repeal the Hughes Amenment.


----------



## Bootney Lee Farnsworth (Jun 8, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> We have 39,000 gun deaths a year.


More than half are suicided and the rest are the result of the street wars in cities like Chicago.

You are full of nothing but SHIT!!!


----------



## hadit (Jun 8, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > There is no comparison to airline security and guns.
> ...


You pretend the media doesn't sensationalize and politicize gun violence. Cute, but it doesn't address what I said about failing to do anything to prevent violence in the first place.

Hmmm, come to think of it, maybe it would be a good thing to make a bigger deal out of criminals shooting each other. You know, highlight how most gun murders are NOT gun owners going nuts and shooting their neighbors. Might get some attention in the right places. Or do we just want to keep it on the surface so we can pretend it's the wild wild west without delving into who is actually killing whom?


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 8, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > There is no comparison to airline security and guns.
> ...




*Every time we have a mass shooting, we find out the shooter had a criminal record or a history of mental illness and was still able to guy a gun.

You told us background checks were the solution.....you told us they would keep us safe..*

*Yes....the FBI has dropped the ball on your precious background check system....obama's Promise Policy kept local police and school officials from giving the shooter in that shooting a criminal record despite over 30 contacts with the police and committing at least 2 felonies on school grounds...*

*These are the government Gods you want us to rely on to protect us....you want us to give in our guns and rely on the FBI and local police to protect us...when they keep screwing up in the mass shooter detection game.....that is on you and your beliefs...not on us.*

*We know the police screw up...we know the system fails...that is why we want gun free zones ended so when your Gods fail, we can protect ourselves...*


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 8, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > There is no comparison to airline security and guns.
> ...




We passed 300 million about 10 years ago....

600 million guns in private hands......over 19.4 million Americans can carry guns legally in public for self defense.........

Gun deaths...the truth....

2019...

Gun murder...10,235

Gun accidents...486

Of the gun murder deaths....over 70-80% of the victims are not regular Americans....they are criminals...murdered by other criminals in primarily democrat party controlled cities....where the democrat party judges, prosecutors and politicians have released them over and over again no matter how many times they are arrested for felony, illegal gun possession and violent crimes with guns...that's on you and your political party...not normal gun owners.


Gun suicides... 23,491...



			Broker Version 9.4 (Build 1366)
		










						Expanded Homicide Data Table 8
					





					ucr.fbi.gov
				




Americans use their legal guns 1.1 million times a year to stop brutal rapes, robberies, beatings, knifings, murders......according to the Centers for Disease Control, and 1.5 million times according to the Department of Justice.

*Lives saved....based on research?  By law abiding gun owners using guns to stop criminals?*

Case Closed: Kleck Is Still Correct


 that makes for _at least_ 176,000 lives saved—

Money saved from people not being beaten, raped, murdered, robbed?.......


So figuring that the average DGU saves one half of a person’s life—as “gun violence” predominantly affects younger demographics—that gives us $3.465 million per half life.

*Putting this all together, we find that the monetary benefit of guns (by way of DGUs) is roughly $1.02 trillion per year. That’s trillion. With a ‘T’.*

I was going to go on and calculate the costs of incarceration ($50K/year) saved by people killing 1527 criminals annually, and then look at the lifetime cost to society of an average criminal (something in excess of $1 million). But all of that would be a drop in the bucket compared to the $1,000,000,000,000 ($1T) annual benefit of gun ownership.

*When compared to the (inflation adjusted from 2002) $127.5 billion ‘cost’ of gun violence calculated by by our Ludwig-Cook buddies, guns save a little more than eight times what they “cost.”

Which, I might add, is completely irrelevant since “the freedom to own and carry the weapon of your choice is a natural, fundamental, and inalienable human, individual, civil, and Constitutional right — subject neither to the democratic process nor to arguments grounded in social utility.”

So even taking Motherboard’s own total and multiplying it by 100, the benefits to society of civilian gun ownership dwarf the associated costs.*










						Annual Defensive Gun Use Savings Dwarf Study's "Gun Violence" Costs - The Truth About Guns
					

An article posted yesterday at Motherboard informed [both] readers that “gun violence” costs the nation $6.6 billion in healthcare costs over nine years ($734m p.a.). Their tally’s based on a study published in the American Journal of Public Health. But wait! There’s more! . . . According to...




					www.thetruthaboutguns.com


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 8, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > Blues Man said:
> ...




Not even close to 1%.....

Gun murder 2019.....20,235

Deaths in actual mass public shootings... ( someone do the math and tell us what percent of 10,235 the number 73 equals.....)

Ladder Safety......300 people die each year falling off of ladders.....about 100 die from lawn mower accidents....

Deer kill 200 people a year....
2020....5
2019....73
2018.....93
2017........117
*2016......71*
2015......37
2014..... 9
2013..... 36
2012..... 72
2011..... 19
2010....9
2009...39
2008...18
2007...54
2006...21
2005...17
2004...5
2003...7
2002...not listed by mother jones
2001...5
2000...7
1999...42
1998...14
1997...9
1996...6
1995...6
1994....5
1993...23
1992...9
1991...35
1990...10
1989...15
1988...7
1987...6
1986...15
1985...(none listed)
1984...28
1983 (none listed)
1982...8

http://


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 8, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > Suicide isn't gun violence.
> ...




Go talk to someone who lost a family member who hanged themselves....you idiot....

We knew a girl who was dumped by her boyfriend...back in the 90s....she parked her car in a vacant lot, poured gasoline all over herself and set herself on fire...

You dumb ass....so don't drag bodies out when suicide is a mental health issue, not a gun issue...you idiot.


----------



## Bootney Lee Farnsworth (Jun 8, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Hey, go talk to someone who lost a family member to suicide about how it's no big deal.


Nobody said that, but you and the gun-grabbing freedom haters are using their sad deaths for political fodder and we're calling out your fucking bullshit.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 8, 2021)

Bootney Lee Farnsworth said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > Hey, go talk to someone who lost a family member to suicide about how it's no big deal.
> ...




Exactly.......


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 8, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> I never said it's no big deal it just isn't a crime or violence issue. And it certainly isn't a gun issue.
> 
> And the gun industry does not benefit from suicides.



No, they do benefit from mass shootings and crime, though.  Gets all the scared little white guys frightened and they want more and more guns.  And then pretty soon they have an arsenal big enough to fight off the Zombies, until Little Timmy offs himself becuase his girlfriend dumped him.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 8, 2021)

Bootney Lee Farnsworth said:


> Nobody said that, t.



That's exactly what he said.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 8, 2021)

hadit said:


> You pretend the media doesn't sensationalize and politicize gun violence. Cute, but it doesn't address what I said about failing to do anything to prevent violence in the first place.
> 
> Hmmm, come to think of it, maybe it would be a good thing to make a bigger deal out of criminals shooting each other. You know, highlight how most gun murders are NOT gun owners going nuts and shooting their neighbors. Might get some attention in the right places. Or do we just want to keep it on the surface so we can pretend it's the wild wild west without delving into who is actually killing whom?



They sensationalize the things that are truly sensational. 

A 6 year old shot because his mom gave a finger to a gun nut who cut her off is sensational. 
A school full of kids getting shot is sensational. 

Someone shooting his neighbor because of a dispute over snow, that barely rates. 









						3 Pennsylvania neighbors dead after fight over snow shoveling, authorities say
					

A fight that erupted over snow shoveling allegedly led to a Pennsylvania man shooting two of his neighbors to death before he died by suicide, authorities said.




					abcnews.go.com


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 9, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > I never said it's no big deal it just isn't a crime or violence issue. And it certainly isn't a gun issue.
> ...


No they don't.

You know what they do benefit from?

Democrats and progressives pushing for gun control.

You people are the best gun salespeople of all time.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 9, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> No they don't.
> 
> You know what they do benefit from?
> 
> ...



But most people wouldn't want a gun to start with if it wasn't so darned easy for the crooks to get them, that's the point. 

The reality is, while the number of guns in circulation has increased, the number of households with guns in them had been on the decline for some time.  




This is understandable.  Hunting has gone largely out of fashion as a sport.  Yes, murdering small animals is not considered as fun as it used to be.  

So the Gun industry decided it needed a new market, and their new market is "Crazy people who think they need to stock up on guns because of Criminals and the Government".   Kind of like the Booze industry realizing that causal drinking is declining, so let's double down on the hard core alcoholics.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 9, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > No they don't.
> ...


You are not the authority as to what most people want.


And in your world you'd be able to sue the liquor store owner because you're an alcoholic


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 9, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> You are not the authority as to what most people want.
> 
> 
> And in your world you'd be able to sue the liquor store owner because you're an alcoholic



Actually, if the Liquor stores acted like the gun stores, that might not be a bad idea. 

You know, you can sue a bar if the bar let you get sloppy drunk and then stumble out to your car.  Most bartenders are required to take BASSET training to know when they have overserved a customer. 

Not the gun stores, though;  This guy can walk in and get an automatic rifle and a 100 round clip. 




He looks perfectly normal to me.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 9, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > You are not the authority as to what most people want.
> ...



Liquor stores sell more alcohol to people under 21 than licensed gun dealers sell guns to people who don't pass BG checks


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 9, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> Liquor stores sell more alcohol to people under 21 than licensed gun dealers sell guns to people who don't pass BG checks



And they get busted when they get caught doing it.  

Frankly, it depends on enforcement level.  There's a couple towns out here that card everyone.  I mean, there's now way even Mr. Magoo could mistake me for a 19 year old, but I get carded anyway.  

We need that level of enforcement with guns.  

Earlier in the thread, I pointed out that there is a gun store in Indiana where 850 guns recovered in crimes in Chicago were bought from.  You really going to tell me that guy doesn't know what's going on?


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 9, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > Liquor stores sell more alcohol to people under 21 than licensed gun dealers sell guns to people who don't pass BG checks
> ...


IF they get caught.

And how many people give alcohol to underaged people?  Is the liquor store owner responsible for that?

You want a double standard.

It's not enough for a licensed gun dealer to follow the law to the letter but he must also follow every person he sells a gun to for the rest of their lives just to make sure that no one uses that gun illegally right?


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 9, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> IF they get caught.
> 
> And how many people give alcohol to underaged people? Is the liquor store owner responsible for that?
> 
> ...



Works for me.  You start holding gun sellers responsible, they aren't going to sell to guys who think they are the Joker.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 9, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > IF they get caught.
> ...


OK then let's have a limit on how much alcohol people can buy and BG checks so no liquor store owner sells to people who are alcoholics or have a history of drunk driving.

Then the liquor store owner must hire people to follow every patron around until all the liquor they bought has been consumed.

Alcohol kills more people than guns every year so it seems you should start your little crusade with that


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 9, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > No they don't.
> ...




Yeah.......another lie....

Even if you totally ignore the massive gun buying that happened last year with the largest number of new gun buyers in history, including minorities and women...you would still be wrong...

Considering, also, that gun owners who pay attention no longer answer anonymous phone calls or polls about owning guns.....

https://crimeresearch.org/2020/08/r...-guns-have-bought-one-in-the-last-six-months/

A new Rasmussen Report survey shows that *47 percent of American households own a gun*, with 5 percent either not sure/refusing to answer the question. Assuming that 47 percent of those who aren’t sure or refusing to answer whether they own a gun actually do, half of American households own guns. (The survey of 1,000 Likely Voters was conducted August 5, 2020 by Rasmussen Reports. The margin of sampling error is +/- 3 percentage points with a 95% level of confidence.)
While men were more likely than women to own a gun (54 to 41 percent) and whites were more likely than blacks (50 to 26 percent), those differences appear to be shrinking. Twenty-seven percent of household have bought a gun in the last five months. Women were more likely than men to buy a gun (32 to 23 percent), blacks were much more likely than whites (47 to 22 percent), and the young were much more likely than old (42 percent for those 18 to 39 versus 20 percent for those 40 to 64 and just 12 percent for those 65 and older).


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 9, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > You are not the authority as to what most people want.
> ...




The gun store, you lying asshole.....has to do a mandatory criminal background check.......this guy passed it....your God...government,  failed, not the gun store.

They did their job...your God failed.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 9, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > Liquor stores sell more alcohol to people under 21 than licensed gun dealers sell guns to people who don't pass BG checks
> ...




That gun store, dumb ass, does a criminal background check on every purchase.....the criminals, as we keep telling you....use straw buyers to buy guns.........straw buyers...you asshole, can pass any background check......so that means they can pass the Federal, mandatory background check at that gun store, at the gun stores in Illinois, and anywhere else..........

There are no gun stores within the city limits of Chicago, you dumb ass....if there were, the same straw buyers would be able to pass their federal, mandatory background checks too...

And the ones using the guns in chicago...the gang members and criminals...?  They have been arrested over and over again for illegal possession of guns and violent gun crimes....then, the Kim Foxx, the democrat party State's Attorney,  let's them go...dropping the gun charges, and letting them plea bargain away the gun charge...then the democrat party judge lets them out of jail on home monitoring and no bail.....and then gives them light sentences,......no matter how many times they are arrested for illegal gun possession, and even for attempted murder with those guns...


It isn't the gun store in Indiana that is the problem you dumb ass.....it is the democrat party that has controlled Chicago since 1931 and keeps releasing violent gun offenders over and over again......


----------



## hadit (Jun 9, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> hadit said:
> 
> 
> > You pretend the media doesn't sensationalize and politicize gun violence. Cute, but it doesn't address what I said about failing to do anything to prevent violence in the first place.
> ...


If gun violence is a real problem, it should be. IOW, dozens of people getting shot in Chicago over a weekend SHOULD be a big issue and focused on until it gets shut down. It isn't, however, because it's largely criminal on criminal shooting, and apparently no one cares about that beyond using it to pump up the death numbers.

IOW, you gun grabbers get all up in arms to "stop the violence", but only when Blond Barbie is the victim. When Carlos and 5 of his gang get gunned down in a drug deal gone bad, well, that's just to be expected. But hey, at least it's another statistic to claim that the US has too many gun deaths.


----------



## hadit (Jun 9, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > You are not the authority as to what most people want.
> ...


1. No, he cannot "walk in and get an automatic rifle". No one can get get an automatic rifle without a license and have to spend a lot of money.
2. He can only get a firearm after passing a background check and the waiting period. He cannot "walk in and get an automatic rifle and a 100 round clip".

Obviously you are not being serious about this.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 9, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > I never said it's no big deal it just isn't a crime or violence issue. And it certainly isn't a gun issue.
> ...




The NRA isn't covering mass public shootings 24/7 you dumb shit.....the democrat party press is...............even though mass public shootings are the rarest of rare events........more rare than lighting strikes.......

So don't sell us that crap....it is you and yours who are making celebrities out of mass public shooters, not us....you who are trying to spread the fear so you can push gun control....but it is your coverage that backfires....since it just shows that if you are attacked....the police are at least 5 minutes away....

You are the ones selling guns...not us...you idiot...tell your democrat party press to stop covering mass public shooters as if they are the Oscar winners of the crime world....you dumb ass.


----------



## Bootney Lee Farnsworth (Jun 9, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > You are not the authority as to what most people want.
> ...


Nobody can get an automatic rifle, dumbass. And the minute they deny someone a firearm based ON LOOKS, they would be sued into oblivion.  So fuck you.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Jun 9, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> YOu don't give up on trying to solve a problem because it's too hard.


Didn’t say anything about giving up.

Saying that a Band-Aid won’t fix a brain tumor doesn’t mean you won’t try to cure the cancer.

The solution to gun crime and violence is indeed complex and difficult – it won’t be solved with ‘bans,’ regardless the political/judicial climate.

And I don’t pretend to know what the solution is – but I do know what the solution isn’t.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Jun 9, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> The first thing I would do is repeal the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act (PLCAA). One thing that we find is that when you do a trace on illicit guns, they come from a fraction of gun dealers who have decided to be irresponsible.


Repealing the Lawful Commerce in Arms Act isn’t going to happen, either.

And however irresponsible those dealers might be, their actions are nonetheless legal; the same is true of Indiana gun dealers, who sell firearms consistent with state and Federal law.

This problem isn’t going to be addressed with more laws – it will require fundamental changes to the very fabric and foundation of American culture and society where violence is glorified and perceived as an appropriate means of conflict resolution.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 10, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> OK then let's have a limit on how much alcohol people can buy and BG checks so no liquor store owner sells to people who are alcoholics or have a history of drunk driving.



Works for me.   Actually, Alcohol consumption is still lower than it was before Prohibition.  

The thing is, the Alcohol industry is actually responsible... the gun industry, not so much.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 10, 2021)

2aguy said:


> The gun store, you lying asshole.....has to do a mandatory criminal background check.......this guy passed it....your God...government, failed, not the gun store.
> 
> They did their job...your God failed.



Uh, guy, the government didn't see this guy was dressed up like the Joker and that he was acting all crazy and shit.  The gun store did.  We expect a human behind a counter to be a final check on whether or not the wrong people are getting guns.  









						The weapons Holmes used and how he bought them
					

DENVER — The entire nation is focused on Colorado after a gunman, believed to be a brilliant, 24-year-old loner named James Holmes, opened fire on moviegoers just after midnight Friday mornin…




					kdvr.com
				




The guns are commonly sold over the counter to anyone who passes a CBI and FBI background check, as Holmes, who has just a traffic offense on an otherwise spotless criminal record, did.

“Based on the records we have reviewed, personnel in our Denver store correctly and fully followed all Federal requirements with respect to the sale of one shotgun and one handgun to the individual identified in this incident,” said a statement released by Bass Pro Shops. “Background checks, as required by Federal law, were properly conducted, and he was approved.”

Holmes purchased a third weapon, a semi-automatic AR-15 assault rifle, at the Gander Mountain store in Aurora just a mile from the movie theater where he allegedly mowed down dozens of unsuspecting moviegoers.

The AR-15 assault rifle was among the weapons banned by the federal government up until 2004, when the ban expired. It has not been renewed.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 10, 2021)

2aguy said:


> That gun store, dumb ass, does a criminal background check on every purchase.....the criminals, as we keep telling you....use straw buyers to buy guns.........straw buyers...you asshole, can pass any background check......so that means they can pass the Federal, mandatory background check at that gun store, at the gun stores in Illinois, and anywhere else..........



I'm sure they do. And when the same straw buyer shows up at the same gun store to buy his 50th gun, that should set off alarm bells... but it doesn't.  

This is why we need to let the victims of gun violence sue the gun stores that these guns come from.  If their behavior was fine, not an issue.   My guess, some of these stores aren't fine.  The ones where 850 guns bought at a store in Indiana were recovered in crimes by the Chicago Police Force.  Don't tell me that guy didn't know exactly what was going on.  



2aguy said:


> The NRA isn't covering mass public shootings 24/7 you dumb shit.....the democrat party press is...............even though mass public shootings are the rarest of rare events........more rare than lighting strikes.......



Uh, yeah, 300+ of them a year isn't rare.  



2aguy said:


> So don't sell us that crap....it is you and yours who are making celebrities out of mass public shooters, not us....you who are trying to spread the fear so you can push gun control....but it is your coverage that backfires....since it just shows that if you are attacked....the police are at least 5 minutes away....



Yet, oddly, no "good guy with a gun" ever shows up to stop one of these public mass shooters.  I think the only case I heard of where one did, he was immediately shot in the back by the shooter's girlfriend. 

Because, um, yeah, this is the kind of couple you want to sell guns to.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 10, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > The gun store, you lying asshole.....has to do a mandatory criminal background check.......this guy passed it....your God...government, failed, not the gun store.
> ...




No, shit head...the gun store ran the mandated, Federal Background check...the kid had no criminal record, he was not involuntarlily commited which would have also shown up......the gun store did it's job.....the government failed...your God failed.

Moron...with that rifle and shotgun and pistols...the rifle jammed....

He killed 12 people...

The shooter at Luby's cafe with two pistols...killed 24

Virginia Tech...with two pistols....killed 32...

The rifle didn't make any difference, you idiot.........

The rifle jammed......he had to use the shotgun and pistol....


There is only one mass public shooting where the rifle had an advantage in the shooting, and that was Las Vegas, where the range was over 200 yards......but he was also firing into a tightly packed crowd of over 22,000 people, at night, from a concealed and fortified position.......with his initial shooting masked by the concert.



And if the crowed wasn't  trapped in that concert arena, he wouldn't have been able to kill as many since they would have run away or found cover.....since shooting at moving targets at hundreds of yards is almost impossible for all but expertly trained shooters...



At the range of every other mass public shooting a rifle has no advantage over pistols or shotguns.......



again.....at the range of a mass public shooting the AR-15 is no better than a pump action shotgun....as are 2 handguns......you idiot...



Boulder....used an AR-15 with magazines that held more than 10 bullets..  10 killed.....



Virginia Tech...2 pistols, one with 10 round magazine..... 32 killed.



Do you see that the AR-15 killed fewer people than the 2 pistols?



Boulder...10 killed with an AR-15 rifle and regular magazines ( holding more than 10 bullets)



Luby's Cafe..... 2 pistols....24 killed.



Do you see that the 2 pistols killed more than the AR-15?



Do you know what the difference was between these attacks?



The cops immediately responded and shot at the attacker in boulder, causing him to stop shooting unarmed victims, and then he shot himself....



Virginia Tech and Luby's Cafe, the police didn't get there, and at Luby's Cafe, the one woman who could have shot and killed the attacker had to leave her gun in her car because of stupid gun free zone laws....



Boulder AR-15 with magazines that hold more than 10 bullets...you know, regular magazines..... 10 killed...



Kerch, Russia, Polytechnic school shooting.... 5 shot, pump action shotgun...which means it had 5 shells which is 5 less than 10........20 killed 70 wounded.



Do you see that the AR-15 killed fewer people than the 5 shot, pump action shotgun?



The difference?   The Russian police station was 100 yards away from the school...and it still took them 10 minutes to get to the school...and he managed to kill 20 people with a 5 shot, pump action shotgun....10 more than the Boulder shooter with a rifle and a regular sized magazine...





So again.......in a mass public shooting the number of bullets in the gun magazine don't mean anything......the gun doesn't make the difference....



What makes the difference?



1) if the target is a gun free zone, more people get killed.



2)  if someone starts shooting at the attacker, they commit suicide, or surrender, or runaway....



That is what you don't understand and don't care to understand since you simply have a mental issue when it comes to the AR-15 rifle.

That rifle had no special advantage in a mass public shooting.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 10, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > That gun store, dumb ass, does a criminal background check on every purchase.....the criminals, as we keep telling you....use straw buyers to buy guns.........straw buyers...you asshole, can pass any background check......so that means they can pass the Federal, mandatory background check at that gun store, at the gun stores in Illinois, and anywhere else..........
> ...




This is a lie.....

Armed Citizens Are Successful 94% Of The Time At Active Shooter Events [FBI]

*Of all the active shooter events there were 33 at which an armed citizen was present. Of those, Armed Citizens were successful at stopping the Active shooter 75.8% of the time (25 incidents) and were successful in reducing the loss of life in an additional 18.2% (6) of incidents. In only 2 of the 33 incidents (6.1%) was the Armed Citizen(s) not helpful in any way in stopping the active shooter or reducing the loss of life.*
*
Thus the headline of our report that Armed Citizens Are Successful 94% Of The Time At Active Shooter Events.


In the 2 incidents at which the armed citizen “failed” to stop or slow the active shooter, one is the previously mentioned incident with hunters. The other is an incident in which the CCWer was shot in the back in a Las Vegas Walmart when he failed to identify that there were 2 Active Shooters involved in the attack. He neglected to identify the one that shot him in the back while he was trying to ambush the other perpetrator.

We also decided to look at the breakdown of events that took place in gun free zones and the relative death toll from events in gun free zones vs non-gun-free zones.

Of the 283 incidents in our data pool, we were unable to identify if the event took place in a gun-free zone in a large number (41%) of the events. Most of the events took place at a business, church, home, or other places at which as a rule of law it is not a gun free zone but potentially could have been declared one by the property owner. Without any information in the FBI study or any indication one way or the other from the news reports, we have indicated that event with a question mark.

If you look at all of the Active Shooter events (pie chart on the top) you see that for those which we have the information, almost twice as many took place in gun free zones than not; but realistically the vast majority of those for which we have no information (indicated as ?) are probably NOT gun free zones.

If you isolate just the events at which 8 or more people were killed the data paints a different picture (pie chart on the bottom). In these incidents, 77.8% took place in a gun-free zone suggesting that gun free zones lead to a higher death rate vs active shooter events in general

=====

One of the final metrics we thought was important to consider is the potential tendency for armed citizens to injure or kill innocent people in their attempt to “save the day.” A common point in political discussions is to point out the lack of training of most armed citizens and the decrease in safety inherent in their presence during violent encounters.

As you can see below, however, at the 33 incidents at which Armed Citizens were present, there were zero situations at which the Armed Citizen injured or killed an innocent person. It never happened.*

BREAKING: Man Opens Fire At Oklahoma Walmart, Confronted By Armed Citizen, Report Says

Two people were killed at a Walmart in Oklahoma by a man who opened fire in the parking lot on Monday *before turning the weapon on himself after an armed citizen confronted him.
------*

*The assailant, who has not yet been identified, shot and killed a man and a woman in the parking lot and when he was “confronted by an armed citizen, he then turned the gun on himself,” The Daily Mail reported.*


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 10, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > OK then let's have a limit on how much alcohol people can buy and BG checks so no liquor store owner sells to people who are alcoholics or have a history of drunk driving.
> ...


Really? 

How many of the families of the 80000 people a year who die because of alcohol get to sue liquor manufacturers?


----------



## Bootney Lee Farnsworth (Jun 10, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > OK then let's have a limit on how much alcohol people can buy and BG checks so no liquor store owner sells to people who are alcoholics or have a history of drunk driving.
> ...


Really?  How is the Alcohol industry responsible?


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 10, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > That gun store, dumb ass, does a criminal background check on every purchase.....the criminals, as we keep telling you....use straw buyers to buy guns.........straw buyers...you asshole, can pass any background check......so that means they can pass the Federal, mandatory background check at that gun store, at the gun stores in Illinois, and anywhere else..........
> ...




The gun store isn't the problem with straw buyers, you idiot.......your God, government, is the problem...

Kim Foxx and the other democrats in Chicago, as well as Federal and local prosecutors don't prosecute straw buyers, you idiot.

Why?  Because most of the time, they are the grandma, girlfriend, baby momma of the criminal, and are threatened with violence if they refuse...you idiot....

America Should Be Prosecuting Straw Purchasers, Not Gun Dealers | National Review

Wisconsin isn’t alone in its nonchalance. 

*California normally treats straw purchases as misdemeanors or minor infractions.*

*Even as the people of Baltimore suffer horrific levels of violence, Maryland classifies the crime as a misdemeanor, too. *

Straw buying is a felony in progressive Connecticut, albeit one in the second-least-serious order of felonies. 


*It is classified as a serious crime in Illinois (Class 2 felony), but police rarely (meaning “almost never”) go after the nephews and girlfriends with clean records who provide Chicago’s diverse and sundry gangsters with their weapons. In Delaware, it’s a Class F felony, like forging a check.* 

In Oregon, it’s a misdemeanor.

--------

*I visited Chicago a few years back to write about the city’s gang-driven murder problem, and a retired police official told me that the nature of the people making straw purchases — young relatives, girlfriends who may or may not have been facing the threat of physical violence, grandmothers, etc. — made prosecuting those cases unattractive. *

In most of those cases, the authorities emphatically should put the straw purchasers in prison for as long as possible. Throw a few gangsters’ grandmothers behind bars for 20 years and see if that gets anybody’s attention. In the case of the young women suborned into breaking the law, that should be just another charge to put on the main offender.

Read more at: America Should Be Prosecuting Straw Purchasers, Not Gun Dealers | National Review

Straw purchaser with 4 felony gun charges will not get jail time

A Chicago-area woman arrested last year for her role in illegally selling guns to prohibited buyers, some with gang affiliations, was sentenced to probation and community service last week.

Simone Mousheh, 23, of the Chicago suburb of Mount Prospect, will have to complete 15 days of community service in the Cook County Sheriff’s Work Alternative Program and 12 months probation after pleading guilty to illegal transfer of firearms last week, as reported by the Daily Herald.

Mousheh was arrested last September and charged with four felonies after an investigation by the Chicago Police Firearm Investigation Team concluded she had bought handguns through the benefit of her state-issued Firearms Owners Identification card and then illegally resold them.

One gun, a Glock 23 Mousheh later reported as stolen, was recovered by police from a juvenile offender on the West Side. Another Glock, a Model 22, was sold to Jayson Barber nine days after she bought it. Mousheh knew at the time that Barber was on probation for domestic battery, and did not have a FOID card which is needed to possess a handgun in Illinois. Police later determined Barber had gang ties. The Glock was the second gun she sold to Barber.

Over a six-month period, Mousheh purchased four Glocks and put a $1,000 deposit on an FN 5.7 pistol. Police were only able to recover the Glock from Barber as well as one other gun and a box of 5.7x28mm ammunition from her home.





ATF Lets Straw Purchasing Violent Criminal Walk In WV

Travis Bishop has been working the past 13 years as a firearms dealer in West Virginia at Tannerman’s Weapon Systems. The store is not only his passion, but also a beacon of hope in his community.

He has put on four food drives in the past 10 years, he’s active in his church through ministry work, he has helped countless heroin addicts though outreach programs, and recently helped 25-year old Britney Bretfield, a customer at Tannerman’s and an avid shotgun trap shooter suffering from cancer, by raising $5500 to help offset her medical bills.

This man goes above and beyond, so when people heard he alerted authorities to break up a straw purchase in his store, it was no surprise. The surprise came after the individuals were spotted in a local liquor store only 14 hours after being arrested.

On December 10th, Travis was working in his store as usual, when two individuals entered his store looking for a handgun. After approaching the two, asking if there was anything he could help them find, the woman indicated she was looking for a “gun with a beam”.


*After talking with them only a few short minutes, he alerted his store employees to go into “straw purchase” mode. This slows things down behind the counter and allows them time to further assess the situation and call law enforcement if necessary.*

Continuing to press for information, Travis asked if they had ever owned or handled handguns before and they both indicated, ‘oh yeah. yeah, we have guns.’ but neither one was able to say what kind or model they were. After perusing the store talking about several options and deciding on a handgun, they said, ‘yeah, we’ll take that one.’

Confused, Travis asked, “What do you mean ‘you’ll both take that one’? Which one of you is going to be purchasing the gun?” to which she replied, “Oh, he’s gonna get it, I’m gonna pay for it.” So he takes them to the counter to start the process and asked, “Which one of you specifically is buying the gun?” Again she answered, “Well the gun is for him, but I’m gonna pay for it.”


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 10, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > That gun store, dumb ass, does a criminal background check on every purchase.....the criminals, as we keep telling you....use straw buyers to buy guns.........straw buyers...you asshole, can pass any background check......so that means they can pass the Federal, mandatory background check at that gun store, at the gun stores in Illinois, and anywhere else..........
> ...




*Yet, oddly, no "good guy with a gun" ever shows up to stop one of these public mass shooters.  I think the only case I heard of where one did, he was immediately shot in the back by the shooter's girlfriend.*

*Idiot.......you and other irrational, anti-gun extremists have made almost every public space legally mandated gun free zones...which means.....you dumb ass.....that normal, law abiding gun owners have to leave their guns in their cars or at home if they want to enter those places....so when mass public shootings happen, they don't have their gun with them because of morons like you..

But what happens when a mass public shooter is an idiot...and actually picks a location where people can carry their legal guns?*

Armed Citizens Are Successful 94% Of The Time At Active Shooter Events [FBI]

*Of all the active shooter events there were 33 at which an armed citizen was present. Of those, Armed Citizens were successful at stopping the Active shooter 75.8% of the time (25 incidents) and were successful in reducing the loss of life in an additional 18.2% (6) of incidents. In only 2 of the 33 incidents (6.1%) was the Armed Citizen(s) not helpful in any way in stopping the active shooter or reducing the loss of life.*
*
Thus the headline of our report that Armed Citizens Are Successful 94% Of The Time At Active Shooter Events.


In the 2 incidents at which the armed citizen “failed” to stop or slow the active shooter, one is the previously mentioned incident with hunters. The other is an incident in which the CCWer was shot in the back in a Las Vegas Walmart when he failed to identify that there were 2 Active Shooters involved in the attack. He neglected to identify the one that shot him in the back while he was trying to ambush the other perpetrator.

We also decided to look at the breakdown of events that took place in gun free zones and the relative death toll from events in gun free zones vs non-gun-free zones.

Of the 283 incidents in our data pool, we were unable to identify if the event took place in a gun-free zone in a large number (41%) of the events. Most of the events took place at a business, church, home, or other places at which as a rule of law it is not a gun free zone but potentially could have been declared one by the property owner. Without any information in the FBI study or any indication one way or the other from the news reports, we have indicated that event with a question mark.

If you look at all of the Active Shooter events (pie chart on the top) you see that for those which we have the information, almost twice as many took place in gun free zones than not; but realistically the vast majority of those for which we have no information (indicated as ?) are probably NOT gun free zones.

If you isolate just the events at which 8 or more people were killed the data paints a different picture (pie chart on the bottom). In these incidents, 77.8% took place in a gun-free zone suggesting that gun free zones lead to a higher death rate vs active shooter events in general

=====

One of the final metrics we thought was important to consider is the potential tendency for armed citizens to injure or kill innocent people in their attempt to “save the day.” A common point in political discussions is to point out the lack of training of most armed citizens and the decrease in safety inherent in their presence during violent encounters.

As you can see below, however, at the 33 incidents at which Armed Citizens were present, there were zero situations at which the Armed Citizen injured or killed an innocent person. It never happened.*

BREAKING: Man Opens Fire At Oklahoma Walmart, Confronted By Armed Citizen, Report Says

Two people were killed at a Walmart in Oklahoma by a man who opened fire in the parking lot on Monday *before turning the weapon on himself after an armed citizen confronted him.
------*

*The assailant, who has not yet been identified, shot and killed a man and a woman in the parking lot and when he was “confronted by an armed citizen, he then turned the gun on himself,” The Daily Mail reported.*


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 10, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > That gun store, dumb ass, does a criminal background check on every purchase.....the criminals, as we keep telling you....use straw buyers to buy guns.........straw buyers...you asshole, can pass any background check......so that means they can pass the Federal, mandatory background check at that gun store, at the gun stores in Illinois, and anywhere else..........
> ...





JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > So don't sell us that crap....it is you and yours who are making celebrities out of mass public shooters, not us....you who are trying to spread the fear so you can push gun control....but it is your coverage that backfires....since it just shows that if you are attacked....the police are at least 5 minutes away....
> ...



There are not 300 mass public shootings each year...you lying doofus.....

US mass shootings, 1982–2021: Data from Mother Jones’ investigation

Dating back to at least 2005, the FBI and leading criminologists essentially defined a mass shooting as a single attack in a public place in which four or more victims were killed. We adopted that baseline for fatalities when we gathered data in 2012 on three decades worth of cases. 
-------


Here is a description of the criteria we use:

The perpetrator took the lives of at least four people. A 2008 FBI report identifies an individual as a mass murderer—versus a spree killer or a serial killer—if he kills four or more people in a single incident (not including himself), typically in a single location. (*In 2013, the US government’s fatality baseline was revised down to three; our database reflects this change beginning from Jan. 2013, as detailed above.)
The killings were carried out by a lone shooter. (Except in the case of the Columbine massacre and the Westside Middle School killings, which involved two shooters.)
The shootings occurred in a public place. (Except in the case of a party on private property in Crandon, Wisconsin, and another in Seattle, where crowds of strangers had gathered, essentially constituting a public crowd.) 
*Crimes primarily related to gang activity or armed robbery are not included, nor are mass killings that took place in private homes (often stemming from domestic violence).*


*Perpetrators who died or were wounded during the attack are not included in the victim tallies.*
*We included a handful of cases also known as “spree killings“—cases in which the killings occurred in more than one location, but still over a short period of time, that otherwise fit the above criteria.*
*----------------------*

Our research focused on indiscriminate rampages in public places resulting in four or more victims killed by the attacker.

* We exclude shootings stemming from more conventionally motivated crimes such as armed robbery or gang violence. (Or in which the perpetrators have not been identified.)*


 Other news outlets and researchers have since published larger tallies that include a wide range of gun crimes in which four or more people have been either wounded or killed. While those larger datasets of multiple-victim shootings are useful for studying the broader problem of gun violence, our investigation provides an in-depth look at a distinct phenomenon—from the firearms used and mental health factors to the growing copycat problem. Tracking mass shootings is complex; we believe ours is the most useful approach for studying this specific phenomenon.

*
Total murders by mass public shooters...1982-2017


795*



---------
The actual number of mass shootings from Mother Jones......

Here you go...the number of mass public shootings according to Mother Jones...rabid, anti gun, left wing news source.....not the NRA...

The list below comes from the old definition of 4 killed to make a shooting a mass shooting...if you now go to the link there are more than listed below...but that is because Mother Jones changed the list from the time I first posted it...and changed to obama's new standard of only 3 dead to make a mass shooting...

*I have put obama's updated number in parenthesis..........*

we will see....


US Mass Shootings, 1982-2015: Data From Mother Jones' Investigation

2020....1

2019....10

2018... 12

2017:  11 ( 5 according to the old standard)

2016....6

2015....4 ( obama's new standard....7)

2014....2 (4)

2013....5

2012....7

2011....3

2010....1

2009....4

2008....3

2007....4

2006....3

2005...2

2004....1

2003...1

2002 not listed so more than likely 0

2001....1

2000....1

1999....5

1998...3

1997....2

1996....1

1995...1

1994...1

1993...4

1992...2

1991...3

1990...1

1989...2

1988....1

1987...1

1986...1

1985... not listed so probably 0

1984...2

1983...not listed so probably 0

1982...1
US Mass Shootings, 1982-2015: Data From Mother Jones' Investigation


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 11, 2021)

2aguy said:


> No, shit head...the gun store ran the mandated, Federal Background check...the kid had no criminal record, he was not involuntarlily commited which would have also shown up......the gun store did it's job.....the government failed...your God failed.



The government didn't see an obviously disturbed kid trying to buy a gun. There's a reason why we have people sell guns instead of Gun Vending Machines. (Oh, wait, you probably sit up at night fantasizing about gun vending machines."  





Everyone in Holmes life knew he was disturbed.  A gun store saw a disturbed man and sold him a military grade weapon. 



2aguy said:


> The gun store isn't the problem with straw buyers, you idiot.......your God, government, is the problem...
> 
> Kim Foxx and the other democrats in Chicago, as well as Federal and local prosecutors don't prosecute straw buyers, you idiot.
> 
> Why? Because most of the time, they are the grandma, girlfriend, baby momma of the criminal, and are threatened with violence if they refuse...you idiot....



Uh, I agree.  The government is the problem.  The ATF is a toothless tiger, there's no accountablity by the government for the gun-mongers, and THAT'S the problem.  

Throw a few gun sellers in jail, you are going to find they clean up their act, pretty fucking quick.


----------



## Bootney Lee Farnsworth (Jun 11, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Everyone in Holmes life knew he was disturbed. A gun store saw a disturbed man and sold him a military grade weapon.


Hold on, what military-grade weapon did they sell him?  

There's your criminal offense.  They are not allowed to sell military-grade weapons to civilians and civilians are not allowed to buy them.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 11, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > No, shit head...the gun store ran the mandated, Federal Background check...the kid had no criminal record, he was not involuntarlily commited which would have also shown up......the gun store did it's job.....the government failed...your God failed.
> ...




Shit head.......you keep lying....

When he went into the gun store, he went through a background check....a Federal, Mandatory, background check.....no one in his life had him committed...if they had, it would have popped up on the background check...

your God, government, failed....not the gun store...they did their job......government didn't do their job....

Kim foxx and the other democrat party prosecutors who keep dropping the illegal, felony gun charges and making plea deals that allow repeat, violent gun offenders to get out on bail, and out of jail and prison with light sentences should be the ones in jail...


----------



## Bootney Lee Farnsworth (Jun 11, 2021)

MarcATL said:


> I recently changed my stance on *gun-control*. I think it's a dead-end and only *harms *the Democratic Party.
> 
> Guns and the violence that accompanies it are too embedded in American culture, they *enshrined *it in their Constitution for Christ's sake.
> 
> ...


Marc, do you know what will make the Dems stop the gun control shit?

Black people threaten to vote GOP if they don't drop it.  You will have the Dem groveling at your feet.


----------



## MarcATL (Jun 11, 2021)

Bootney Lee Farnsworth said:


> Marc, do you know what will make the Dems stop the gun control shit?
> 
> Black people threaten to vote GOP if they don't drop it.  You will have the Dem groveling at your feet.


Why would Black people vote for a party that's openly *hostile* to them?


----------



## marvin martian (Jun 11, 2021)

MarcATL said:


> At the very least change their stance and go full-bore in the *opposite *direction, I say *flood *the country w/guns and ammunition, let them buy weapons till their wallets *burst*.



That's been the plan in the DemoKKKrat-run shithole cities for the past 40 years.  It's the second part of the left's century-long black genocide program (the first being Planned Parenthood).  Keep voting for them, it's going great!


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 11, 2021)

MarcATL said:


> Bootney Lee Farnsworth said:
> 
> 
> > Marc, do you know what will make the Dems stop the gun control shit?
> ...




It isn't hostile to them.......they just don't focus on skin color.

Meanwhile, the democrat party is openly destructive to black, hispanic and asian Americans......they refuse to allow the children of these minority groups escape democrat party controlled schools that refuse to teach math, english or any useful skill....and they are actively trying keep asians out of our colleges and universities and they are bringing in hundreds of thousands of illegal aliens from Mexico to compete with black, hispanic and white Americans in the work force........and shipping jobs to China...their ally....


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 12, 2021)

Bootney Lee Farnsworth said:


> Hold on, what military-grade weapon did they sell him?
> 
> There's your criminal offense. They are not allowed to sell military-grade weapons to civilians and civilians are not allowed to buy them.



An AR-15 is military grade. It's identical to the M16 used by the military except it can't fire full auto. 



2aguy said:


> Shit head.......you keep lying....
> 
> When he went into the gun store, he went through a background check....a Federal, Mandatory, background check.....no one in his life had him committed...if they had, it would have popped up on the background check...



Not the point.  YOu can just look at his picture and tell he's not right in the head.  Ten minutes of interaction with him should have confirmed that.  

The fact that the National Rampage Association has watered down teh background check system is the problem. 

But you have a point, relying on the government to identify all the nuts is problematic in a free country. 

So I have a simple solution.  You sell a gun to Joker Holmes, and the families of his victims can sue you into the fucking poor house.  They can sue the manufacturer into the poor house.  

I promise you, the Gun Industry would stop selling to crazy people. They'd make damned sure that if someone shows up at their store acting crazy, they'd do more to stop him.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 12, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Meanwhile, the democrat party is openly destructive to black, hispanic and asian Americans......they refuse to allow the children of these minority groups escape democrat party controlled schools that refuse to teach math, english or any useful skill....and they are actively trying keep asians out of our colleges and universities and they are bringing in hundreds of thousands of illegal aliens from Mexico to compete with black, hispanic and white Americans in the work force........and shipping jobs to China...their ally....



Uh, sorry, man, last time I checked, the only people shipping jobs to China are big businesses... you know, Republicans.  

Kind of the same thing with undocumented workers.  It's white Republicans who are hiring them, because they don't want to pay black people a decent wage to do shitty jobs, which is just as good, Americans don't want to do those shitty jobs. 

School Choice is a scam.  It doesn't work, and it wastes resources.  Again, Milwaukee tried this, and it failed miserably.   

No one is being kept out of a university. "I had to go to UIC instead of Harvard" isn't being kept out.


----------



## Death Angel (Jun 12, 2021)

MarcATL said:


> Guns and the violence that accompanies it are too embedded in American culture


Violence is part of BLACK culture, not AMERICAN  culture


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 12, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Bootney Lee Farnsworth said:
> 
> 
> > Hold on, what military-grade weapon did they sell him?
> ...




The background check hasn't been watered down, you lying shithead....... your God, government simply can't do anything well..............on top of that, the anti-gun extremists don't want background checks to work, they want criminals to get guns through straw buyers....they can't push emotional buttons without bodies on the ground...

if we kept actual gun criminals locked up, the gun control movement would die out....you need blood and bodies to push your agenda...so you keep letting known, repeat, violent gun offenders out on bail...so they can keep shooting people...and out of jail on short sentences...so they can keep shooting people....

You are the problem.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 12, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Bootney Lee Farnsworth said:
> 
> 
> > Hold on, what military-grade weapon did they sell him?
> ...




The AR-15 is not military grade as you just pointed out, you doofus..it isn't capable of 3 round burst or fully automatic fire...you idiot......


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 12, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > Meanwhile, the democrat party is openly destructive to black, hispanic and asian Americans......they refuse to allow the children of these minority groups escape democrat party controlled schools that refuse to teach math, english or any useful skill....and they are actively trying keep asians out of our colleges and universities and they are bringing in hundreds of thousands of illegal aliens from Mexico to compete with black, hispanic and white Americans in the work force........and shipping jobs to China...their ally....
> ...




Shit head.....the big business is now fully on board with the democrats.....just ask big tech and the other big industries......you dumb ass...


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 12, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > Meanwhile, the democrat party is openly destructive to black, hispanic and asian Americans......they refuse to allow the children of these minority groups escape democrat party controlled schools that refuse to teach math, english or any useful skill....and they are actively trying keep asians out of our colleges and universities and they are bringing in hundreds of thousands of illegal aliens from Mexico to compete with black, hispanic and white Americans in the work force........and shipping jobs to China...their ally....
> ...




School choice works like a charm.....especially when the democrat party controlled teachers unions are kept from crippling the programs...


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 12, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > Meanwhile, the democrat party is openly destructive to black, hispanic and asian Americans......they refuse to allow the children of these minority groups escape democrat party controlled schools that refuse to teach math, english or any useful skill....and they are actively trying keep asians out of our colleges and universities and they are bringing in hundreds of thousands of illegal aliens from Mexico to compete with black, hispanic and white Americans in the work force........and shipping jobs to China...their ally....
> ...




No...the democrat party saying.....you are Asian so you can't go to Harvard because you actually qualify to go there, is racism...not choice, you idiot.....


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 12, 2021)

2aguy said:


> The background check hasn't been watered down, you lying shithead....... your God, government simply can't do anything well..............on top of that, the anti-gun extremists don't want background checks to work, they want criminals to get guns through straw buyers....they can't push emotional buttons without bodies on the ground...



Every time Congress meets to tighten up background checks, the National Rampage Association is out there fighting it.  Even after a tragedy like Sandy Hook. 



2aguy said:


> No...the democrat party saying.....you are Asian so you can't go to Harvard because you actually qualify to go there, is racism...not choice, you idiot.....



No, it's a choice.  Do we go strictly by test scores, or do we take other factors into account?  And yes, one racial group having a much greater degree of racism should be a factor.  Asian-Americans have encountered racism, to be sure, but nothing on the level of what Black people have, to this very day. 

Boo-hoo, you had to go to UIC.  So what?  If you are bright, you'll still do well.  



2aguy said:


> School choice works like a charm.....especially when the democrat party controlled teachers unions are kept from crippling the programs...


Actually, it fails just as often as it succeeds, for a variety of reasons. 

Now, I say this as a product of Parochial schools.  I admit, I got more opporunities and a better level of education than I would have gotten in a public school.  But it was a miserable experience, which is why I'm a flaming atheist today and mock religion whenever given the opportunity.  

That said. - Main reason why I did well.  My parents were paying for it.  They were involved. They were invested.  You give a parent who doesn't give a shit a voucher, they aren't going to give more of a shit when little Timmy or Little Jamal goes to a parochial school.  

Second problem with school choice. It tends to stratify students.  The main problem I have with my Catholic Education is that I didn't really interact with non-Catholics until College, and didn't interact with non-white until High School.  I mean, seriously, I didn't have a clue.   You give people school choice, they'll send their kids to schools that are for people like them.  The real world doesn't work like that. 

Third problem- Choice works both ways.  My Catholic school didn't take kids with disabilities, or kids with disciplinary problems, or kids who were really poor.  

Fourth problem, who gets them?  Every person scraping together the tuition to get their kid into a private school now will demand a voucher if they become available.   That will mean LESS money to go around, not more.  










						The Zombie Politics of School Choice: A Reader
					

The original zombie narrative has been re-created and distorted in contemporary U.S. pop culture, as Victoria Anderson explains: So what were zombies, originally? The answer lies in the Caribbean. …




					radicalscholarship.wordpress.com
				












						Idealizing, Misreading Impoverished and Minority Parental Choice
					

In his The Charter School Paradox, Walt Gardner asks: “If charter schools are guilty of all the sins described in the multi-part cover story, then why are there waiting lists across the count…




					radicalscholarship.wordpress.com


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 12, 2021)

2aguy said:


> The AR-15 is not military grade as you just pointed out, you doofus..it isn't capable of 3 round burst or fully automatic fire...you idiot......



Um, okay. So what?  

The range, hitting power, accuracy are still the same.  

Should point out that full automatic assault rifles didn't really become a thing until WWII.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 13, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > Meanwhile, the democrat party is openly destructive to black, hispanic and asian Americans......they refuse to allow the children of these minority groups escape democrat party controlled schools that refuse to teach math, english or any useful skill....and they are actively trying keep asians out of our colleges and universities and they are bringing in hundreds of thousands of illegal aliens from Mexico to compete with black, hispanic and white Americans in the work force........and shipping jobs to China...their ally....
> ...




Yeah..Nike?  Google?  Facebook? Amazon? Twitter?

The wealthiest companies in this country are all left wing democrat controlled companies....


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 13, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > The AR-15 is not military grade as you just pointed out, you doofus..it isn't capable of 3 round burst or fully automatic fire...you idiot......
> ...




They are the same, the rifle doesn't give them any advantage as actually looking at mass public shootings shows.......

There is only one mass public shooting where the rifle had an advantage in the shooting, and that was Las Vegas, where the range was over 200 yards......but he was also firing into a tightly packed crowd of over 22,000 people, at night, from a concealed and fortified position.......with his initial shooting masked by the concert.



And if the crowed wasn't  trapped in that concert arena, he wouldn't have been able to kill as many since they would have run away or found cover.....since shooting at moving targets at hundreds of yards is almost impossible for all but expertly trained shooters...



At the range of every other mass public shooting a rifle has no advantage over pistols or shotguns.......



again.....at the range of a mass public shooting the AR-15 is no better than a pump action shotgun....as are 2 handguns......you idiot...



Boulder....used an AR-15 with magazines that held more than 10 bullets..  10 killed.....



Virginia Tech...2 pistols, one with 10 round magazine..... 32 killed.



Do you see that the AR-15 killed fewer people than the 2 pistols?



Boulder...10 killed with an AR-15 rifle and regular magazines ( holding more than 10 bullets)



Luby's Cafe..... 2 pistols....24 killed.



Do you see that the 2 pistols killed more than the AR-15?



Do you know what the difference was between these attacks?



The cops immediately responded and shot at the attacker in boulder, causing him to stop shooting unarmed victims, and then he shot himself....



Virginia Tech and Luby's Cafe, the police didn't get there, and at Luby's Cafe, the one woman who could have shot and killed the attacker had to leave her gun in her car because of stupid gun free zone laws....



Boulder AR-15 with magazines that hold more than 10 bullets...you know, regular magazines..... 10 killed...



Kerch, Russia, Polytechnic school shooting.... 5 shot, pump action shotgun...which means it had 5 shells which is 5 less than 10........20 killed 70 wounded.



Do you see that the AR-15 killed fewer people than the 5 shot, pump action shotgun?



The difference?   The Russian police station was 100 yards away from the school...and it still took them 10 minutes to get to the school...and he managed to kill 20 people with a 5 shot, pump action shotgun....10 more than the Boulder shooter with a rifle and a regular sized magazine...





So again.......in a mass public shooting the number of bullets in the gun magazine don't mean anything......the gun doesn't make the difference....



What makes the difference?



1) if the target is a gun free zone, more people get killed.



2)  if someone starts shooting at the attacker, they commit suicide, or surrender, or runaway....



That is what you don't understand and don't care to understand since you simply have a mental issue when it comes to the AR-15 rifle.

That rifle had no special advantage in a mass public shooting.


----------



## BasicHumanUnit (Jun 13, 2021)

Long before I'll accept insurance for gun owners.....I will demand insurance against stupid voters......

One Constitutional Right is FAR more dangerous than the other....and it is NOT guns


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 13, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Yeah..Nike? Google? Facebook? Amazon? Twitter?
> 
> The wealthiest companies in this country are all left wing democrat controlled companies....



Okay, but that's only because the Republicans got taken over by the crazies...  

You know, the kind of crazy who thinks that a maniac dressed like the Joker has a right to buy a machine gun because the Founding Slave Rapists couldn't define a militia coherently. 



2aguy said:


> They are the same, the rifle doesn't give them any advantage as actually looking at mass public shootings shows.......
> 
> There is only one mass public shooting where the rifle had an advantage in the shooting, and that was Las Vegas, where the range was over 200 yards......but he was also firing into a tightly packed crowd of over 22,000 people, at night, from a concealed and fortified position.......with his initial shooting masked by the concert.



Uh, Sandy Hook.  Aurora.  Stoneman High School..  

Look, guy, you can go into your gun wanking all day, but the rest of us are a little tired of the nonsense. 

The ironic thing is, your ability to wank off to your guns wouldn't be impeded by making them harder for the crazies to get.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 13, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah..Nike? Google? Facebook? Amazon? Twitter?
> ...


Do you know what that guy was wearing when he bought his firearms?  I don't think you do.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 13, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> Do you know what that guy was wearing when he bought his firearms? I don't think you do.



You mean was he in his full Joker Costume? Probably not.

but seriously, look at this guy... just from the picture you can tell something isn't right about him.


----------



## Bob Blaylock (Jun 13, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Okay, but that's only because the Republicans got taken over by the crazies...



  I think you're mistaken, there, Incel Joe.  All the faggots and trannies, the _Black *Lies* Matter_ terrorists, the traitors, the druggies, the abortionists, and all manner of other subhuman filth; it's not the Republican party to which they are flocking, nor where they are finding support.

  It is your side that owns these crazies, perverts, and criminals.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 13, 2021)

Bob Blaylock said:


> I think you're mistaken, there, @Incel Joe. All the faggots and trannies, the _Black *Lies* Matter_ terrorists, the traitors, the druggies, the abortionists, and all manner of other subhuman filth; it's not the Republican party to which they are flocking, nor where they are finding support.
> 
> It is your side that owns these crazies, perverts, and criminals.



Okay, let's look at this. 

Most Americans support a woman's right to choose.  









						U.S. Public Continues to Favor Legal Abortion, Oppose Overturning Roe v. Wade
					

As debates over abortion continue in states around the country, a majority of Americans (61%) continue to say that abortion should be legal in all (27%) or most (34%) cases.




					www.pewresearch.org
				




Most people support gay rights. 









						More Americans support LGBTQ rights than ever before, poll shows
					

The poll, which was conducted by the Public Religion Research Institute (PRRI) found that 76 percent of Americans are in support of laws that protect LGBTQ individuals from being discriminated against in housing, jobs and public life.




					www.newsweek.com
				




So your homophobia and misogyny are really minority positions, Mormon Bob. 

Most Americans support police reform.  









						Where Americans stand on policing today
					

Police reforms remain very popular, polling from Data for Progress and Vox shows.




					www.vox.com
				




Oh, wait, here's the thing.  Most Americans support legalization of pot and think we need to reform our drug laws. 









						Support for Legal Marijuana Inches Up to New High of 68%
					

A record-high 68% of Americans support legalizing marijuana, including majorities of most demographic groups.




					news.gallup.com
				








__





						On 50th Anniversary of “War on Drugs,” New Poll Shows Majority of Voters Support Ending Criminal Penalties for Drug Possession, Think Drug War is a Failure
					

New York, NY – Today, ahead of the 50th anniversary of when President Richard Nixon declared the “war on drugs,” the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU)  and the Drug Policy Alliance (DPA)  released a Bully Pulpit Interactive (BPI) poll showing strong support for eliminating criminal penalties...




					drugpolicy.org


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 13, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > Do you know what that guy was wearing when he bought his firearms? I don't think you do.
> ...


You don't know what he looked like when he bought his guns.  FYI it's not illegal to dye your hair


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 13, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> You don't know what he looked like when he bought his guns. FYI it's not illegal to dye your hair



I'm sure it's not.   

I'm sure that if everyone in his life thought he was crazy, he couldn't act sane enough to buy a gun without anyone noticing.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 14, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > You don't know what he looked like when he bought his guns. FYI it's not illegal to dye your hair
> ...


And again it doesn't matter what people think all that matters is the dealer who sold him a gun complied with the law.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 14, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> And again it doesn't matter what people think all that matters is the dealer who sold him a gun complied with the law.



No, it matters than the gun industry ever thought selling a gun to the Joker was a good idea.  

Let the victims of gun violence sue the gun sellers, you'd be AMAZED how quickly they clean up their act.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 14, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > And again it doesn't matter what people think all that matters is the dealer who sold him a gun complied with the law.
> ...



The gun industry doesn't know who buys its products.

Gun dealers have to operate under the laws written 

But you don't want the laws we have to be enforced


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 14, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> The gun industry doesn't know who buys its products.



Really?  They'd be the only industry that doesn't.  

You realize most industries conduct massive amounts of consumer marketing and analysis, right? 

The problem with the gun industry is that after murdering small animals for sport fell out of fashion, the gun industry did to market analysis and discovered their key market wasn't the guy who bought a gun for protection in the 1990's and forgot about it. 

Their prime market were the crazies.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 14, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > The gun industry doesn't know who buys its products.
> ...


Do you think The bourbon industry knows who buys their booze?

Do you think a liquor store clerk knows if the guy who just bought a case of beer and a fifth of vodka is going to drive around after drinking it?


----------



## frigidweirdo (Jun 14, 2021)

MarcATL said:


> I recently changed my stance on *gun-control*. I think it's a dead-end and only *harms *the Democratic Party.
> 
> Guns and the violence that accompanies it are too embedded in American culture, they *enshrined *it in their Constitution for Christ's sake.
> 
> ...



Essentially, America is so fucked, it's incredible.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 14, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> Do you think The bourbon industry knows who buys their booze?



I think they know exactly who their customers are.   



Blues Man said:


> Do you think a liquor store clerk knows if the guy who just bought a case of beer and a fifth of vodka is going to drive around after drinking it?



Given the cops will pull you over and make your life miserable for having a 0.08 alcohol level, no, most people don't expect their customers to do that. 

If we were really concerned with drunk driving, simple solution.  Equip every car with a blow-meter.  With modern technology, we could even rig them to call an Uber.  Would cost $200.00 per car.  

Sadly, we've discovered that when you can wring $10,000 plus out of some poor fool who got a DUI, DUI is pretty fucking lucrative


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 14, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > Do you think The bourbon industry knows who buys their booze?
> ...


Yeah and cops catch every single person driving over the legal limit right?

And hey why not just put a governor in every car so people can never drive faster than 65 MPH

That kind of control over people gives you a hard on


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 14, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > Do you know what that guy was wearing when he bought his firearms? I don't think you do.
> ...




Joe...we  can tell from your posts there is something definitely wrong with you...but we aren't going to take Constitutional Rights away from you simply because we know you are insane...we would want actual proper authorities to do that, even for you....


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 14, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > Do you think The bourbon industry knows who buys their booze?
> ...




No, shithead.....you don't punish everyone for the crimes of a few....fascists like you never understand that concept...you see punishing everyone as a feature, not a problem...


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 14, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > Blues Man said:
> ...




65....how about 35 mph.......that would save lives and stop the glaciers from melting....or something....it might be not racist too.......


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 14, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Bob Blaylock said:
> 
> 
> > I think you're mistaken, there, @Incel Joe. All the faggots and trannies, the _Black *Lies* Matter_ terrorists, the traitors, the druggies, the abortionists, and all manner of other subhuman filth; it's not the Republican party to which they are flocking, nor where they are finding support.
> ...




And the devil and the democrat is in the details of all of those issues....you lie to the people you poll, leave out all of the relevant information so that they are simply replying to feel good slogans, then you use their ignorance to push through your agenda...

Sell that to joe biden voters, they are the only ones stupid enough to support you...


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 15, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> Yeah and cops catch every single person driving over the legal limit right?
> 
> And hey why not just put a governor in every car so people can never drive faster than 65 MPH
> 
> That kind of control over people gives you a hard on



There are good reasons why you'd need to go over 65 MPH. 

There's no good reason to get behind the wheel when you are smashed.  

We could put a blow-meter on every car, and end drunk driving.   Nobody wants that. Not the government, which makes a killing off of pulling over people who are slightly buzzed.   Not the bars, who realize they'd have no business.  

If you are serious about solving a problem, solve the problem.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 15, 2021)

2aguy said:


> And the devil and the democrat is in the details of all of those issues....you lie to the people you poll, leave out all of the relevant information so that they are simply replying to feel good slogans, then you use their ignorance to push through your agenda...



Translation, if the polls don't say what I want, then the polls must be wrong.  

Both sides use "Feel Good Slogans" like "Build the Wall."  

But the people are smart enough to figure it out. 

The majority favor a woman's right to choose.    The only way you get people worked up is convincing the stupid that they are running around killing fully-formed fetuses minutes before birth.  You make it sound like abortionists are grabbing women off the street.  Then you wonder why people reject your crazy.  

The fun thing, when the knuckle draggers Trump put on SCOTUS overturn Roe, the backlash against you guys will be amazing to behold.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 15, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > And the devil and the democrat is in the details of all of those issues....you lie to the people you poll, leave out all of the relevant information so that they are simply replying to feel good slogans, then you use their ignorance to push through your agenda...
> ...




Wrong....."Do you want common sense gun control laws."

Yeah...everyone wants that......then, when asshats like you start banning guns and magazines, that's when people realize what that means.


----------



## Bootney Lee Farnsworth (Jun 15, 2021)

MarcATL said:


> Bootney Lee Farnsworth said:
> 
> 
> > Marc, do you know what will make the Dems stop the gun control shit?
> ...


link?

And I said threaten....but you are so OWNED by the white racists in the DEM party that you defend them.  You defend yo massas.


----------



## Bootney Lee Farnsworth (Jun 15, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > The gun industry doesn't know who buys its products.
> ...





> after murdering small animals for sport fell out of fashion


 
You are such a woman.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 15, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Wrong....."Do you want common sense gun control laws."
> 
> Yeah...everyone wants that......then, when asshats like you start banning guns and magazines, that's when people realize what that means.



Uh, yeah, common sense means you don't sell an semi-automatic and a 100 round magazine to Joker Holmes.


----------



## Polishprince (Jun 15, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > Wrong....."Do you want common sense gun control laws."
> ...




It was the first time that Mr. Holmes had decided to allegedly shoot up a theater.   As a first time offender it was impossible to know that he would decide to allegedly commit murder.

Common sense will tell you that a Walmart employee- even one which has reached Associate status- is not able to predict the future.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 15, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah and cops catch every single person driving over the legal limit right?
> ...


getting to work 2 minutes earlier isn't a good reason

And you're not serious about lowering the murder rate.

We all know where most murders occur. The government of states cities and towns know where most murders occur but they do nothing to stop them because its cheaper not to solve them.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 15, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > Wrong....."Do you want common sense gun control laws."
> ...




Common sense is not something you ever were familiar with......as we can tell from your posts...


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 15, 2021)

Polishprince said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > 2aguy said:
> ...




As a first time gun offender I am surprised someone from the democrat party didn't try to pay for his bail.....since they let repeat, violent, known gun offenders out of prison over and over again...


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 15, 2021)

2aguy said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > 2aguy said:
> ...


I have yet to have any one tell me which of the federal gun laws that we don't enforce isn't a common sense law.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 15, 2021)

Polishprince said:


> It was the first time that Mr. Holmes had decided to allegedly shoot up a theater. As a first time offender it was impossible to know that he would decide to allegedly commit murder.
> 
> Common sense will tell you that a Walmart employee- even one which has reached Associate status- is not able to predict the future.



He didn't buy his gun at Walmart.   And frankly, if you are having someone that low making the decision to sell a gun, that's part of the problem. 



Blues Man said:


> I have yet to have any one tell me which of the federal gun laws that we don't enforce isn't a common sense law.



What federal gun laws.  Every time we have a mass shooting, and they want to close whatever loophole a Lanza or a Holmes got through, the NRA goes to battle stations to defeat it.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 16, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Polishprince said:
> 
> 
> > It was the first time that Mr. Holmes had decided to allegedly shoot up a theater. As a first time offender it was impossible to know that he would decide to allegedly commit murder.
> ...



FYI those people passed their BG checks and the licensed dealers obeyed the law.  You have no leg to stand on there.

I'm talking about the federal laws regarding who is and isn't legally allowed to own or buy a firearm.

Every time a person is arrested for illegal firearm possession or using a firearm in the commission of a crime it is a federal offense.

But these people are never brought up on federal charges.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 16, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> FYI those people passed their BG checks and the licensed dealers obeyed the law. You have no leg to stand on there.



Background checks that are meaningless.   

Hey, I work in manufacturing.  When a product fails, we don't say, "Well, it passed a quality check".  Nope, we do root cause analysis and we improve the quality check to make sure we catch the problem next time.  

If a background check let Joker Holmes buy a gun, then background checks were inadequate. Period. Full stop.  After a mass shooting, they find out within days if the person was mentally ill or had a criminal record.  And, yes, mass shooters almost always acquire the guns legally.  



Blues Man said:


> Every time a person is arrested for illegal firearm possession or using a firearm in the commission of a crime it is a federal offense.
> 
> But these people are never brought up on federal charges.



Probably has something to do with double jeopardy.  Perhaps you heard of it. 





You can't charge someone twice for the same offense.


----------



## Bob Blaylock (Jun 16, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> Every time a person is arrested for illegal firearm possession or using a firearm in the commission of a crime it is a federal offense.
> 
> But these people are never brought up on federal charges.





JoeB131 said:


> Probably has something to do with double jeopardy.  Perhaps you heard of it.
> 
> View attachment 501978
> 
> You can't charge someone twice for the same offense.



  It's difficult to tell if this is an instance of you being unimaginably ignorant about how double jeopardy works, or just plain dishonest.  Given that it's you, it's most likely some bizarre combination of both.


----------



## citygator (Jun 16, 2021)

MarcATL said:


> I recently changed my stance on *gun-control*. I think it's a dead-end and only *harms *the Democratic Party.
> 
> Guns and the violence that accompanies it are too embedded in American culture, they *enshrined *it in their Constitution for Christ's sake.
> 
> ...


Wise position.  I’d confiscate and make all guns illegal if possible. It’s not possible. Cat is out of the bag. Gun safety is a good idea but I’m all for armed guards at soft targets. Let’s lock this place up like an El Salvador Wendy’s.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 16, 2021)

Bob Blaylock said:


> It's difficult to tell if this is an instance of you being unimaginably ignorant about how double jeopardy works, or just plain dishonest. Given that it's you, it's most likely some bizarre combination of both.



Actually, I get it just fine.  While it is legally possible to try a person federally for a crime after he has been acquitted locally, it rarely happens.   Frankly, I'd be happy if the Feds stepped into things more often, but we know that won't happen with Republicans in the picture.  They like impotent federal agencies. 

For instance, the chief agency for enforcing gun laws is the much maligned BATFE.  



			https://www.justice.gov/jmd/page/file/1142436/download#:~:text=Resources%3A,and%20confirmed%20by%20the%20Senate.
		


The ATF Budget is 1.3 Billion.  That's to police all 300 million firearms in this country.  

They have a total of 5100 employees and 2500 agents.   

We have 16,000 gun murders and 400,000 gun crimes, not including gun possession, which is the whole argument of the gun wankers, that we don't arrest poor people for merely having guns.  

Now compare that to the DEA.  They have a budget of 3.1 Billions, nearly times that of the ATF.  

The IRS has a budget of 11.8 Billion to make sure we get our taxes paid.  

You get the idea.  You whine about the Feds not doing their job, and then don't give them the tools to do their job.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 16, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > FYI those people passed their BG checks and the licensed dealers obeyed the law. You have no leg to stand on there.
> ...


Except for the fact that state attorneys typically drop gun charges 









						In Delaware, 71% of gun charges are dropped
					

While 71 percent of charges are dropped, state prosecutors say convictions of some sort in firearms cases at 87 percent.



					www.delawareonline.com
				












						He sold illegal AR-15s. Feds agreed to let him go free to avoid hurting gun control efforts | CNN
					

A case once touted by ATF and federal prosecutors as a crackdown on an illicit AR-15-style weapons factory near Los Angeles is now seen has having the potential to pave the way to unfettered access to one of the most demonized guns in America.




					www.cnn.com
				












						Thousands of felony gun cases are being dismissed in Cook County criminal courts - The Chicago Reporter
					

Thousands of felony cases involving a weapons violation are being dismissed in Cook County. Is the public pressure to crack down on gun violence inadvertently driving up these numbers?




					www.chicagoreporter.com
				




When laws are not enforced they do not work


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 16, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Polishprince said:
> 
> 
> > It was the first time that Mr. Holmes had decided to allegedly shoot up a theater. As a first time offender it was impossible to know that he would decide to allegedly commit murder.
> ...



The  Federal laws that state felons, and the dangerously mentally Ill can't have guns......those laws  are the laws you shitheads want, which don't work when the democrat party keeps letting violent, known, repeat gun offenders out of prison or jail.....or they ignore so that criminals don't get a criminal record...like obama's "Promise Program," did which allowed the shooter to get a rifle despite over 33 contacts with the police and several felonies that they ignored because of obama.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 16, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > FYI those people passed their BG checks and the licensed dealers obeyed the law. You have no leg to stand on there.
> ...




The background check worked....the shooter had no criminal record so a criminal record did not show up on the background check, you lying shithead...

Who failed....?   His psychiatrist.....he should lose his license ...right?


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 16, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > Blues Man said:
> ...




Hmmmmm...I think I know where you found those links....


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 16, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Polishprince said:
> 
> 
> > It was the first time that Mr. Holmes had decided to allegedly shoot up a theater. As a first time offender it was impossible to know that he would decide to allegedly commit murder.
> ...





Shithead....I gave you the stories that show that federal and state prosecutors...you high priests for your God, the govenment, do not prosecute straw buyers....because straw buyers are too often the baby mommas of the criminals, or their grandmothers or mothers......often under threat of physical violence..

Your God, the government, is the failure, not the gun stores...


----------



## SavannahMann (Jun 16, 2021)

Why? The Republicans are determined to make themselves an irrelevant minority. All the Democrats have to do is stand back and let the Republicans implode.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 16, 2021)

SavannahMann said:


> Why? The Republicans are determined to make themselves an irrelevant minority. All the Democrats have to do is stand back and let the Republicans implode.






Please...keep telling yourself that........as biden and his handlers reveal themselves to be even weaker and more incompetent than before.....you see President sleepy snap at the CNN reporter....?  Or the joke he is to the rest of the world?


As long as he let's putin and china do whatever they want and keeps the U.S. checkbook open, they will simply laugh when he leaves the room...


----------



## SavannahMann (Jun 16, 2021)

2aguy said:


> SavannahMann said:
> 
> 
> > Why? The Republicans are determined to make themselves an irrelevant minority. All the Democrats have to do is stand back and let the Republicans implode.
> ...



Keep those smiles coming. Because each day the Republicans continue with the insane Conspiracy Theory that is another vote gone. Another election lost. Another seat lost. 

The polling going into 2020 told everyone Trump was in jeopardy. Oh Polls. You idiots don’t remember the polls from 2016 do you? 

The point ignored was how the polls were right in 2018. Yes. The pollsters had it badly wrong in 2016. But that was addressed. Fixed. 

So all the smilies and funny little pictures later and Biden is President. Exactly as the polls predicted. 

Those polls now show more and more people identifying as Democrats now. As bad as Biden is, Trump lost to him. I mean take a moment and imagine how so many people viewed Trump. 

So keep posting the rolling on the floor laughing smilies. Every day you all keep up the insanity the Democrats get stronger. And the one thing you can be sure of. You won’t be posting those smilies as election results start coming in next year or in 2024.


----------



## whitehall (Jun 16, 2021)

Interesting that the poster's stance on gun control didn't really change. His hatred for 2nd Amendment rights is still evident but his feeling is that gun control is an issue that would be harmful to the left wing democrat political agenda. This is indicative of the hypocrisy of the elite left who would call 911 if they heard a bump in the night and in some cases have a little army of armed guards. Democrats don't hate guns, they just hate the people who own them


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 16, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> Except for the fact that state attorneys typically drop gun charges



Yes, they have real criminals to prosecute...  We've been over this.   We don't have enough space in the prisons to keep the murderers and rapists locked up, you want to lock people (of color) up for some penny-ante gun possession charge.  



2aguy said:


> Shithead....I gave you the stories that show that federal and state prosecutors...you high priests for your God, the govenment, do not prosecute straw buyers....because straw buyers are too often the baby mommas of the criminals, or their grandmothers or mothers......often under threat of physical violence..



And that we really don't have the room in prisons to go after them. Look, I realize you won't be happy until every darkie in the country is locked up and we repeal the 13th Amendment in spirit, but the reality is, locking people up doesn't work.  

Don't lock them up.  Just take away the fucking guns and make sure they can't get more.  Hold gun sellers civilly liable for gun violence, and they won't sell a Baby Momma from out of state her 14th gun.  

This isn't complicated.  The rest of the world has figured this out.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 16, 2021)

2aguy said:


> The Federal laws that state felons, and the dangerously mentally Ill can't have guns......those laws are the laws you shitheads want, which don't work when the democrat party keeps letting violent, known, repeat gun offenders out of prison or jail.....or they ignore so that criminals don't get a criminal record...like obama's "Promise Program," did which allowed the shooter to get a rifle despite over 33 contacts with the police and several felonies that they ignored because of obama.



33 contacts with police, and how many convictions?  Oh, that's right.  ZERO.  Most of those 'contacts' were other members of his family, but never mind.  

Okay, let's do this way. IF ANYONE in your household has a red flag, we can take your guns or prevent you from getting one.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 17, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > Except for the fact that state attorneys typically drop gun charges
> ...


So people who break gun laws aren't criminals?

You are so full of shit.

All you want to do is ban guns and let the facts be damned.


----------



## Colin norris (Jun 17, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > Blues Man said:
> ...



So when a mad young kid blasts others with a gun from his house, it's the total fault of the kid, not bad security.
Got it.  

And what purpose is you tool used for? Let me guess, turkeys, hunting and testosterone building and a great discussion point amongst your ego  filled mates. All those irrelevant justifications for having a violent weapon for no valid reason. Oh. I forgot. You need to protect yourself from bandits who roam the countryside specifically to invade homes.  You must have used it for that reason thousands of times.  Id say never.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 17, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...


Parents are responsible for their children.

Why is a kid being involved in an accidental gun death any different from a kid drowning in the family pool or ingesting something poisonous?

All those things are the parents' fault not the gun industry's or other gun owners and people who legally own guns are not responsible for the acts of criminals

I don't hunt.  I have firearms for self defense and for the defense of my wife and home.


----------



## Colin norris (Jun 17, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> Colin norris said:
> 
> 
> > Blues Man said:
> ...



How many times have you defended your wife and kids etc? I'll bet never. Thats bullshit and you know it. It's there because you're  allowed to have them for no reason. Don't give me your rubbish about tyrannical governments etc. 
Another load if crap because not one gun in the country has ever been used for that reason either.  

Most if the guns criminals have are stolen from nearly anywhere they look because gun nuts leave them lying around for show.  That means it's the irresponsibility of the parents as you said.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 17, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> So people who break gun laws aren't criminals?
> 
> You are so full of shit.
> 
> All you want to do is ban guns and let the facts be damned.



Naw, I'm all for allowing gun ownership, after you've been thoroughly background checked, are required to get a lot of insurance, and can have that gun taken away if you are ever perceived as a danger to yourself and others. 

The problem with wanting to throw people (of color) in prison for mere gun possession is that we don't have the room in the jails.  (And yes, these laws will be enforced like many of our other laws... prison for people of color, probation for white people.) 

Do the math.  The police make 10 million arrests a year for various offenses.  We only have 2 million jail cells.  We have to make hard decisions about who we put in them.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 17, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> Colin norris said:
> 
> 
> > Blues Man said:
> ...





Colin norris said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > Colin norris said:
> ...


How many times have you used your life insurance, your homeowners insurance?  It only takes one time.   I know that from experience because I was actually the victim of a violent crime and I didn't have a gun to defend myself because I was not yet 21 and couldn't buy a handgun or get a concealed carry permit.

I got jumped, robbed and assaulted by 3 assholes who left me unconscious on the sidewalk with 3 broken ribs a fractured eye orbital a ruptured spleen and a grade 4 concussion and some permanent vision impairment in my left eye.

So you might be naive or stupid enough to think that you will never be the victim of a violent crime but I'm not.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 17, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > So people who break gun laws aren't criminals?
> ...


Liar.

And I don't care what color a persons skin is.

Unlike you


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 17, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > The Federal laws that state felons, and the dangerously mentally Ill can't have guns......those laws are the laws you shitheads want, which don't work when the democrat party keeps letting violent, known, repeat gun offenders out of prison or jail.....or they ignore so that criminals don't get a criminal record...like obama's "Promise Program," did which allowed the shooter to get a rifle despite over 33 contacts with the police and several felonies that they ignored because of obama.
> ...




Why didn't those contacts with the police lead to any criminal convictions.....even the ones where  he brought a knife and bullets to school...which would have shown up on background checks for guns?

The obama education policy...."The Promise Program."

*Broward County Public Schools in Florida, the sixth-largest school system in the country and home to Parkland's Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, where last month's school shooting took place, was one of the first to embrace what's known as "restorative justice" discipline programs and quickly became one of the Obama administration's darlings for its efforts to focus on equity in discipline.*
*In fact, the superintendent of the Broward school, Robert Runcie, who worked alongside former Education Secretary Arne Duncan in the Chicago Public Schools, was the leading force behind instituting new practices within the district for handling student behavior issues without resorting to law enforcement involvement, which quickly became a national model for ending zero-tolerance policies in schools.
Student-related arrests, Runcie's bio shows, are down by 65 percent since he came to Broward County.

But in the letter to DeVos and Sessions, Rubio posits that it may be these policies, spurred by the Obama administration's guidance, that allowed the gunman to skirt law enforcement despite a well-known history of displaying disturbing behaviors.
"The overarching goals of the 2014 directive to mitigate the school-to-prison pipeline, reduce suspensions and expulsions, and to prevent racially biased discipline are laudable and should be explored," Rubio wrote. "However, any policy seeking to achieve these goals requires basic common sense and an understanding that failure to report trouble students, like Cruz, to law enforcement can have dangerous repercussions."





			https://www.usnews.com/news/education-news/articles/2018-03-06/did-an-obama-era-school-discipline-policy-contribute-to-the-parkland-shooting
		

*


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 17, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > So people who break gun laws aren't criminals?
> ...




All of a sudden gun possession is something you don't want to punish....when the individual arrested has a long history of actual violence and crime.......meanwhile, you want to destroy any law abiding gun owner who has their guns stolen by the very criminals you want to keep free...

You truly are insane.....


----------



## Bob Blaylock (Jun 17, 2021)

2aguy said:


> All of a sudden gun possession is something you don't want to punish....when the individual arrested has a long history of actual violence and crime.......meanwhile, you want to destroy any law abiding gun owner who has their guns stolen by the very criminals you want to keep free...
> 
> You truly are insane.....



  When you understand that Incel Joe is on the side of subhuman criminal pieces of shit, and unabashedly against the side of actual human beings, then you can see that his positions are consistent, and make perfect sense from that point of view.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 17, 2021)

2aguy said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > Blues Man said:
> ...


He wants all the black people to be able to carry guns illegally because it's racist if you don't but he doesn't want anyone to LEGALLY own a gun


----------



## marvin martian (Jun 17, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> We don't have enough space in the prisons to keep the murderers and rapists locked up, you want to lock people (of color) up for some penny-ante gun possession charge.



Actually, YOU want to do that.  It's no coincidence that the places that have the strictest gun laws also have the highest proportion of black and brown people.  You people designed it that way, so the minorities are either disarmed or in jail for defending themselves.  Right where you want them.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 18, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> Liar.
> 
> And I don't care what color a persons skin is.
> 
> Unlike you



Then you advocated for Rush Limbaugh to go to the same prison black drug addicts do?  

Only a fool would deny there are racial disparities on how laws are enforced and punished in this country. 



marvin martian said:


> Actually, YOU want to do that. It's no coincidence that the places that have the strictest gun laws also have the highest proportion of black and brown people. You people designed it that way, so the minorities are either disarmed or in jail for defending themselves. Right where you want them.



We don't have strict gun control laws anywhere in this country, stupid.  Chicago had some mild gun laws, the National Rampage Association went to court to strike them down.  Gun stores opened on every block and our murder rate doubled.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 18, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > Liar.
> ...


I have never listened to Rush Limbaugh and don't know anything about him really.

And just because racial disparities exist doesn't mean we should not enforce laws.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 19, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> I have never listened to Rush Limbaugh and don't know anything about him really.
> 
> And just because racial disparities exist doesn't mean we should not enforce laws.



Actually, it's exactly why we shouldn't, unless we are going to do it fairly. The point is, gun possession is almost never prosecuted, because it's penny ante.  

Now, if you really want to have federal gun laws enforced, I'm all for it.  Give the ATF a 20 billion dollar budget and 20,000 agents.   That would make the National Rampage Association scream.  

They are still upset the ATF Fried David Koresh.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 19, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > I have never listened to Rush Limbaugh and don't know anything about him really.
> ...


It's obviously not penny ante if you don't want anyone who is legally prohibited carrying as gun.  This is why you criticize the current BG check system isn't it?

So one more you demonstrate just how full of shit you really are.

You piss and moan and whine constantly about gun crimes and now you say we shouldn't enforce gun laws because the illegal possession of a gun is penny ante.

And we don't need the ATF all we need is state prosecutors cooperating with the US attorney's office to move all gun cases to federal court.


----------



## Hollie (Jun 19, 2021)

As usual, the rabid leftists / gun grabbers are the biggest incentive for people to arm themselves. With the leftists abandoning arrest of criminals and defunding police, people have a need to protect themselves.  










						As Left Pushes Gun Control and Defunding Police, Smith & Wesson Has First Billion Dollar Sales Year ⋆ 🔔 The Liberty Daily
					

If you love the news, check out The Liberty Daily's homepage. The Neo-Marxist future envisioned by today’s Democratic Party includes a disarmed populace that is completely beholden to government for everything from food and clothing to “protection” from nefarious forces. They are pushing gun...




					thelibertydaily.com


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 19, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> It's obviously not penny ante if you don't want anyone who is legally prohibited carrying as gun. This is why you criticize the current BG check system isn't it?



Naw, man, I criticize the BG check system in that it LEGALLY sells guns to people like Joker Holmes.  

Now, you catch Jamal the street thug with a gun. YOU TAKE AWAY THE GUN.  Period. Full stop. Throwing him in prison for just having the gun is a waste of resources.  



Blues Man said:


> And we don't need the ATF all we need is state prosecutors cooperating with the US attorney's office to move all gun cases to federal court.



The Federal Courts don't want them.   There's really no reason why the Feds can't take these cases now, they just refuse to unless it's someone doing something blatant, like selling AR-15's with conversion kits at a gun show. 

You want Federal Gun Laws to have some teeth, fund the ATF seriously.  Don't piss and moan when they take out a mutant like Koresh.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 19, 2021)

Hollie said:


> As usual, the rabid leftists / gun grabbers are the biggest incentive for people to arm themselves. With the leftists abandoning arrest of criminals and defunding police, people have a need to protect themselves.



Again- 85% of murders are people who know each other...  and 2/3rds of gun deaths are self-inflicted.


----------



## Hollie (Jun 19, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > As usual, the rabid leftists / gun grabbers are the biggest incentive for people to arm themselves. With the leftists abandoning arrest of criminals and defunding police, people have a need to protect themselves.
> ...



Again - you play fasr and loose with statements you don't understand









						Americans Mostly Kill the Ones We Know | Essay | Zócalo Public Square
					

Turn on your television in the coming months, and you will see and hear just how much Americans fear strangers and guns. Yet when it comes to violent




					www.zocalopublicsquare.org
				




It is important to note that firearms are involved in about two-thirds of homicides in the U.S. That said, murders between intimates are more likely to involve “hands-on” violence, such as choking, beatings, or violence where the perpetrator physically touches the victim. Guns are more likely to be involved between perpetrators and victims who are strangers, or who know each other only in passing, like rival gang members.



Again - the data conflicts with your "... because I say so", nonsense.









						Murder - number of felonies by relationship of victim to offender 2021 | Statista
					

In 2021 in the United States, seven people were murdered by their employer.




					www.statista.com
				




Again - Yeah, it's a strange thing. Criminals commit crimes with or without a gun. 

Again - when leftist loons refuse to prosecute crime, criminals feel emboldened to commit more crime. 

Number of murders in the United States by relationship of victim to offender in 2019


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 19, 2021)

Hollie said:


> It is important to note that firearms are involved in about two-thirds of homicides in the U.S. That said, murders between intimates are more likely to involve “hands-on” violence, such as choking, beatings, or violence where the perpetrator physically touches the victim. Guns are more likely to be involved between perpetrators and victims who are strangers, or who know each other only in passing, like rival gang members.



Except, of course, that 83% of murder victims know each other...  So even taking out ALL the other methods, 50% of murders are where a gun was used in an incident between family or neighbors or acquantences..

Not to mention the 20,000 people who kill themselves intentionally or accidentally because they have access to a gun.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 19, 2021)

Hollie said:


> Again - Yeah, it's a strange thing. Criminals commit crimes with or without a gun.



I'm sure they do.  I just don't really care about property crimes that much.  They aren't important. Stuff can be replaced. Lives cannot.


----------



## Hollie (Jun 19, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > It is important to note that firearms are involved in about two-thirds of homicides in the U.S. That said, murders between intimates are more likely to involve “hands-on” violence, such as choking, beatings, or violence where the perpetrator physically touches the victim. Guns are more likely to be involved between perpetrators and victims who are strangers, or who know each other only in passing, like rival gang members.
> ...


Except of course that the data shows otherwise.

Not to mention of course that:









						Study: the Vast Majority of Gun Crime Isn’t Committed by Lawful Gun Owners | National Review
					

Here’s news that should shock exactly no one — the vast majority of gun crimes are committed by people who did not lawfully purchase their firearms.




					www.nationalreview.com


----------



## Hollie (Jun 19, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Again - Yeah, it's a strange thing. Criminals commit crimes with or without a gun.
> ...


Why worry about property crime when its not your property? 

Why worry about the leftist allowance for destruction of property in Portland, as one example? The leftist game is to promote the rights of criminals to riot, destroy property and murder while minimizing the rights of the victims.

It's the illness of the leftist retrograde.


----------



## Hollie (Jun 19, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Again - Yeah, it's a strange thing. Criminals commit crimes with or without a gun.
> ...





			Downtown Portland has lost $23 million in recent riots, says Portland Business Alliance
		



Those whiny business owners who lost their livelihoods can stop whining and, you know, go make solar panels.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 19, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > It's obviously not penny ante if you don't want anyone who is legally prohibited carrying as gun. This is why you criticize the current BG check system isn't it?
> ...


So he just gets another illegal gun 

Like I said you're full of shit.

The reason we have gun crime and gun violence is because we don't enforce gun laws. 

You want to obsess over this one guy and ignore the real problem


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 19, 2021)

Hollie said:


> Why worry about property crime when its not your property?
> 
> Why worry about the leftist allowance for destruction of property in Portland, as one example? The leftist game is to promote the rights of criminals to riot, destroy property and murder while minimizing the rights of the victims.



I don't.  Portland brought this upon itself, I'm not getting upset about it. 



Hollie said:


> Except of course that the data shows otherwise.
> 
> Not to mention of course that:


That was a study of one city...  and frankly, if your wife or kid grabs your gun and shoots another family member, that would count as "not the lawful gun owner".  



Blues Man said:


> So he just gets another illegal gun



Not if you make guns REALLY HARD to get.   Not if you crack down on the gun dealers for knowingly selling to straw buyers.  



Blues Man said:


> The reason we have gun crime and gun violence is because we don't enforce gun laws.



NO, the reason we have it is that people who shouldn't have guns can get them.


----------



## Hollie (Jun 19, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Why worry about property crime when its not your property?
> ...



“Portland brought this upon itself, I'm not getting upset about it.”

That’s just nonsense. Leftist politicians created the disaster in Portland just as they did in Minneapolis, New York and elsewhere.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 20, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Why worry about property crime when its not your property?
> ...


You mean like all the people out there who can't pass a BG check and still own guns?

You know the ones that you don't want to charge with a gun crime


----------



## basquebromance (Jun 20, 2021)

they already did!









						Democrats set to pare down gun control bills in aim for unity
					

Their point man on guns is preparing to vote on a scaled-down bill aimed at uniting the party and picking up a limited number of Republican votes.




					www.politico.com


----------



## Flash (Jun 20, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > It's obviously not penny ante if you don't want anyone who is legally prohibited carrying as gun. This is why you criticize the current BG check system isn't it?
> ...




The ATF needs to be disbanded.  They are the jackbooted anti Constitutional thugs of our country.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 20, 2021)

basquebromance said:


> they already did!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We need criminal control not gun control

We have federal gun laws that we simply do not enforce.  What makes you think any of these new federal gun laws would be enforced?


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 20, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> You mean like all the people out there who can't pass a BG check and still own guns?
> 
> You know the ones that you don't want to charge with a gun crime



You cut off a snake at the head. The head is the gun industry, not the inviduals who have guns.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 20, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > You mean like all the people out there who can't pass a BG check and still own guns?
> ...


No you control the fucking criminals.

But you don't want to do that


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 20, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> No you control the fucking criminals.
> 
> But you don't want to do that



Guy, we lock up 2 million people. We have another 7 million on probation or parole. 

It's time to stop trying to stop the end result, and address the root causes. 

The root causes are.

1) Poverty
2) Racism
3) Addiction
4) Mental Illness
5) Gun Proliferation

The Europeans don't have these problems because they address these issues sensibly.   

The Japanese don't have these problems because they are a monoculture, don't allow guns, and have thorough social programs. (As for Mental Illness, Japan is to Crazy what the Middle East is to Oil, they have enough reserves to meet all the world's needs) 




*Don't ever Change, Japan! *


----------



## Hollie (Jun 20, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > You mean like all the people out there who can't pass a BG check and still own guns?
> ...


Nonsense. Yours is the typical leftist refusal to hold criminals responsible for the crimes they committ. 









						Study: the Vast Majority of Gun Crime Isn’t Committed by Lawful Gun Owners | National Review
					

Here’s news that should shock exactly no one — the vast majority of gun crimes are committed by people who did not lawfully purchase their firearms.




					www.nationalreview.com
				




What the rabid leftists want to do is ignore the Constitution, appease criminals and blame ''whitey''.


----------



## Hollie (Jun 20, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > No you control the fucking criminals.
> ...



Oh, gawd. Another Kamala Harris ''root causes'' tour groupie.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 20, 2021)

Hollie said:


> Nonsense. Yours is the typical leftist refusal to hold criminals responsible for the crimes they committ.



We lock up 2 million people.  Most western countries lock up less than 100,000.   They have nowhere near our crime levels.   There's a certain point, when you realize you are doing worse than everyone else, you look at what everyone else is doing for clues. 



Hollie said:


> What the rabid leftists want to do is ignore the Constitution, appease criminals and blame ''whitey''.



The constitution was about well-regulated militias, not letting any nut who wants a gun have one.


----------



## Hollie (Jun 20, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Nonsense. Yours is the typical leftist refusal to hold criminals responsible for the crimes they committ.
> ...


Oh, don't sweat it. Your leftist heroes are making it easy for repeat offenders to be turned loosebon the streets. New York DA's are refusing to prosecute Antifa rioters and looters. Ain't keftism great?

The courts have ruled on the intent of the 2nd amendment. It protects the right to own a firearm in spite of leftist hacks attempting to dismantle the Constitution.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 21, 2021)

Hollie said:


> Oh, don't sweat it. Your leftist heroes are making it easy for repeat offenders to be turned loosebon the streets. New York DA's are refusing to prosecute Antifa rioters and looters. Ain't keftism great?



Well, since he wouldn't be able to get a conviction for minor property damage, probably a good call. 

You have to get people to respect law enforcement to get convictions for that sort of thing, and NYC and the rest of the country have a long way to go. 



Hollie said:


> The courts have ruled on the intent of the 2nd amendment. It protects the right to own a firearm in spite of leftist hacks attempting to dismantle the Constitution.



Court rulings can change....  We just need to replace the knuckle draggers Bush and Trump put on the court.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 21, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > No you control the fucking criminals.
> ...


And we lock up the wrong people.

most people in serving time prison are there for nonviolent crimes 

Besides that almost 70% of people in jails right now haven't even been convicted of anything yet 

And I don't want to live in a Eurpoean or Asian country  if you do please feel free to get the fuck out


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 21, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> And we lock up the wrong people.
> 
> most people in serving time prison are there for nonviolent crimes
> 
> Besides that almost 70% of people in jails right now haven't even been convicted of anything yet



That number sounds dubious, so I know you won't back it up.  

Gun possession is a non-violent crime.  YOu just had the gun.  

Frankly, I'd rather lock up the guy who jacked my TV and VCR back in the 80's than some kid who was carrying a piece because he lives in a shitty neighborhood.  But my first choice would be to make that neighborhood less shitty so no one needs to carry a gun or steal a TV.  



Blues Man said:


> And I don't want to live in a Eurpoean or Asian country if you do please feel free to get the fuck out



Naw, I don't want to live in one... but we can look at what they are doing right and compare it to what we are doing wrong.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 21, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > And we lock up the wrong people.
> ...


Really?
 Unlike you I don't make shit up








						Mass Incarceration: The Whole Pie 2020
					

Report showing the number of people who are locked up in the United States and why




					www.prisonpolicy.org


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 21, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> Really?
> Unlike you I don't make shit up
> 
> 
> ...


No, you just use misleading terminology.  Of course, most people in "jails" aren't convicted.  When they are Convicted, they go to PRISON.


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Jun 21, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > Since the vast majority of legal gun owners will never commit a crime or shoot anyone I would say violence does not accompany gun ownership. And violence is certainly not enshrined in the Constitution.
> ...


you can repeat those lies as much as you want but they are still lies 
There are over 450 million firearms in America


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 21, 2021)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> you can repeat those lies as much as you want but they are still lies
> There are over 450 million firearms in America



Probably less than 300 million and probably only half of those are functional.  

Yes, it will take a while to clean them all up... but it can be done.


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Jun 22, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > you can repeat those lies as much as you want but they are still lies
> ...


there was over 300 million at the time of your dated misinformation


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 22, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > Really?
> ...


Less than half of all people in jail or prison have been convicted of violent crimes.
There are more people in prison for shit like property crimes and simple drug possession than there are violent offenders.

Like I said we lock up the wrong people because we have to feed the prison for profit corporations.


----------



## Hollie (Jun 22, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Oh, don't sweat it. Your leftist heroes are making it easy for repeat offenders to be turned loosebon the streets. New York DA's are refusing to prosecute Antifa rioters and looters. Ain't keftism great?
> ...


Leftists have some odd ideas on law enforcement. Facts and evidence lead to criminal convictions not whether people like or dislike police.

One example of the leftist paradise. 40 separate arrests and the leftist paradise made sure he was kept on the streets.









						Homeless man with 40 prior arrests busted for slugging Asian woman: cops
					

Alexander Wright — homeless man with dozens of prior arrests — has been charged with slugging an Asian woman in Chinatown, authorities and police sources said Tuesday.




					nypost.com
				





You obviously missed it but your leftist paradise of hailing criminals as heroes is already wearing thin. The leftist dream of defunding / eliminating the police and flooding the streets with criminals is causing a backlash. Refund the police calls are already being heard.

leftist knuckle-dragged are their own worst enemy.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 22, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> Less than half of all people in jail or prison have been convicted of violent crimes.
> There are more people in prison for shit like property crimes and simple drug possession than there are violent offenders.
> 
> Like I said we lock up the wrong people because we have to feed the prison for profit corporations.



Okay, let's look at that one.  

SO you want to let a bunch of thieves and druggies out to make room for the dumb punk who got caught with a gun, because that will show them.  You know, instead of actually making it harder for a punk to get a gun to start with or holding the gun industry responsible for selling him a gun.  

You know, a punk with a gun probably isn't going to bother me all that much.  But a druggie on the road might. Or a guy who likes to break into houses and steal shit.  

Again, the problem is the gun industry selling guns to punks and crazy people so white people get all scared and want them, too.


----------



## Hollie (Jun 22, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > Less than half of all people in jail or prison have been convicted of violent crimes.
> ...


In typical leftist fashion, it's all about those evil white people.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 22, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > Less than half of all people in jail or prison have been convicted of violent crimes.
> ...



Theft isn't much of a crime since goods can easily be replaced.  There are certainly other ways to punish that sort of behavior like long stints of community service and restitution.

I don't care if people choose to do drugs in fact I think all drugs should be decriminalized.

And people who carry guns illegally are the ones more likely to commit a crime or kill someone so yeah those people represent a real threat to public safety.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 23, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> Theft isn't much of a crime since goods can easily be replaced. There are certainly other ways to punish that sort of behavior like long stints of community service and restitution.
> 
> I don't care if people choose to do drugs in fact I think all drugs should be decriminalized.
> 
> And people who carry guns illegally are the ones more likely to commit a crime or kill someone so yeah those people represent a real threat to public safety.



I agree. People who carry guns are the ones most likely to commit crimes.  That's why we need to severely limit who can get a gun.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 23, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > Theft isn't much of a crime since goods can easily be replaced. There are certainly other ways to punish that sort of behavior like long stints of community service and restitution.
> ...


And we need to arrest those who possess guns illegally.

And we already have laws that limit who can get a gun we just don't enforce them.

So once again we see you are full of shit because you don't want to enforce those laws you just want more laws that won't be enforced,


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 23, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> And we need to arrest those who possess guns illegally.
> 
> And we already have laws that limit who can get a gun we just don't enforce them.



No, we really don't.  Most Americans don't realize how lax our gun laws really are. 

THIS GUY SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO BUY A GUN.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 23, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > And we need to arrest those who possess guns illegally.
> ...


What is your obsession with this guy?  Do you jerk off to that picture?

He passed a BG check he had no criminal record.

Where the guy who just held up the Store 24 used an illegally procured handgun but those gun charges will be dropped.


----------



## Hollie (Jun 23, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > you can repeat those lies as much as you want but they are still lies
> ...



“_Probably less than 300 million and probably only half of those are functional.”_

Pretty typical for the rabid leftist narrative. No source, no factual data, just the usual “… because I’m ignorant, I’ll just make something up”

Data for 2009.






						How Many Guns Are in the United States? - Number – GunPolicy.org
					

Gun law, gun control statistics, number of guns, gun deaths, firearm facts and policy, armed violence, public health and development



					www.gunpolicy.org
				




By … 2009, the estimated total number of firearms available to civilians in the United States had increased to approximately 310 million: 114 million handguns, 110 million rifles, and 86 million shotguns(36). Per capita, the civilian gun stock has roughly doubled since 1968, from one gun per every two persons to one gun per person…


----------



## Hollie (Jun 23, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > And we need to arrest those who possess guns illegally.
> ...



Most rabid leftists don’t know how involved a gun purchase is… until they try to buy one. 

Funny, stuff. As usual, the rabid leftist cares not a wit for the facts.









						NRA-ILA | Florida Alert! Liberals Angry to Discover Gun Control Laws Infringing Upon THEIR Rights
					

An employee of a Florida Gun Shop called me last week to let us know that a very liberal customer was quite angry that he could not pick out a gun, pay for it and walk out of the store with it.  This is the story he shared in pretty much his own words: After filling out the 4473 Form, and...




					www.nraila.org


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Jun 23, 2021)

Hollie said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...


that's just the guns we know about not including firearms made from 80% lowers 
and the data from 2009 doubled by 2021


----------



## Hollie (Jun 23, 2021)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > JoeB131 said:
> ...


Exactly right!


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 23, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> What is your obsession with this guy? Do you jerk off to that picture?



Here's my obsession 

He had absolutely no business getting a gun.  And he was still able to get one.  A military grade rifle with a 100 round magazine.  Something no civilian has a need for.  

He killed 17 people and injured dozens more.  



Blues Man said:


> Where the guy who just held up the Store 24 used an illegally procured handgun but those gun charges will be dropped.



Okay. How many people did he kill in the process.  What?  Zero?  Amazing how that works.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 23, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > Less than half of all people in jail or prison have been convicted of violent crimes.
> ...




That punk is carrying that gun for a reason......to shoot rivals he sees on the street or to execute rivals on the orders of his gang...you moron.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 24, 2021)

2aguy said:


> That punk is carrying that gun for a reason......to shoot rivals he sees on the street or to execute rivals on the orders of his gang...you moron.



Or maybe just to protect himself from all the other punks with guns, because the National Rampage Society made getting guns so easy even THESE guys can do it. 






What amuses me is that you want a gun for "protection", but you get upset when people of color want them, too.  

Silly Darkie.  Rights are for white people.


----------



## Hollie (Jun 24, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > That punk is carrying that gun for a reason......to shoot rivals he sees on the street or to execute rivals on the orders of his gang...you moron.
> ...


Typical rabid leftist. Play the race card. 

Odd, though. Gun sales increased dramatically when rabid leftist policies focused on defunding the police and letting criminals walk away from accountability for the crimes they committed. 

Yeah. People realized that the socialist utopia promoted by the Left was a disaster for their personal safety. Leftist policies help sell firearms.


----------



## Hollie (Jun 24, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > What is your obsession with this guy? Do you jerk off to that picture?
> ...


What, exactly, is a "military grade rifle". Let me guess. You believe AR (in AR 15), stands for "assault rifle", right?


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 24, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > What is your obsession with this guy? Do you jerk off to that picture?
> ...


An Ar 15 isn't military grade.  And the dealer who sold him that gun obeyed every law and regulation.

And less that 1% of murders take place in mass shootings.  But again we see you don't really want to lower the murder rate or the crime rate because you are fixated on things that will do neither.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 24, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > That punk is carrying that gun for a reason......to shoot rivals he sees on the street or to execute rivals on the orders of his gang...you moron.
> ...




Moron...I am the one reporting that minorities and women make up the biggest growth area in gun ownership.....you obviously have a problem with skin color, and then you project your problem onto the people you argue with...you really need help.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 24, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > What is your obsession with this guy? Do you jerk off to that picture?
> ...




It wasn't a military rifle, it wasn't "military grade," rifle....and it had nothing to do with how many people died........you idiot...


JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > What is your obsession with this guy? Do you jerk off to that picture?
> ...




Moron......the colorado theater shooter killed 12 people, not 17.....

The rifle he used jammed...because of the magazine he was using.......he started the attack with a shotgun......then he switched to the AR-15 which jammed and ended with the handgun....you idiot....

So....a combination of shotgun, rifle and pistol = 12 dead....  He fired 6 rounds from the shotgun, 65 from the rifle and 5 from the pistol....and killed 12 people.....

Virginia Tech....two pistols.....32 killed.

Luby's Cafe....two pistols....24 killed

The rifle didn't matter at that range you doofus.........

The Navy Yard shooter used a shotgun, pump action ....killed the same number 12.

The Kerch, Russia, shooter...used a 5 shot, pump action shotgun.........killed 20 wounded 70.

You don't know what you are talking about.............

in 2019 there were a total of 73 people killed in mass public shootings...

5 killed in 2020.......

Deer kill 200 every year.....bambi....kill 200 people a year...mass public shooters 73.......and not all are killed with rifles...not even half....

Ladders kill 300 people a year....

Lawn mowers kill between 90-100 a year...

You are an idiot.....


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 24, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > Blues Man said:
> ...



And less that 1% of murders take place in mass shootings.

*10,235 gun murders in 2019....*

*73 people killed in mass public shootings in 2019...  

Deer kill 200 people a year.

Ladders kill 300 people a year.

Lawn mowers kill between 90-100 a year.....









						US mass shootings, 1982–2022: Data from Mother Jones’ investigation
					

The full data set from our in-depth investigation into mass shootings.




					www.motherjones.com
				












						Expanded Homicide Data Table 8
					





					ucr.fbi.gov
				












						Lawnmowers Kill More People Than Bears, Sharks or Alligators Each Year
					

Lawnmower accidents account for more than 35,000 injuries and the deaths of at least 90 Americans annually, according to a Lawn Stater analysis released on Wednesday.




					www.newsweek.com
				












						Where the 11 deadliest animals in the US live
					

Deer, cows, and dogs are far more likely to kill you than mountain lions, sharks, and other wildlife that might look more threatening.




					www.businessinsider.com
				












						Ladder Safety
					






					www.nachi.org
				



*


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 25, 2021)

Hollie said:


> ypical rabid leftist. Play the race card.
> 
> Odd, though. Gun sales increased dramatically when rabid leftist policies focused on defunding the police and letting criminals walk away from accountability for the crimes they committed.



Naw, that isn't odd.  The gun industry's whole model is based on scared little white people wanting to buy enough guns to fight off the Zombies.    That's why they flood our inner cities with guns to start with. 

And don't ever, ever tell them that a gun is 43 times more likely to kill a household member than a bad guy. If a study finds that, let's cut off all studies!!!!


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 25, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Moron...I am the one reporting that minorities and women make up the biggest growth area in gun ownership.....you obviously have a problem with skin color, and then you project your problem onto the people you argue with...you really need help.



Again, when you guys talk about arresting people for gun crimes, you mean the darkies. 

When it's white people violating federal gun laws like David Koresh and Randy Weaver, you make them out to be heroes.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 25, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > ypical rabid leftist. Play the race card.
> ...



joe....you are the role model for an anti-gun extremist who relies on emotions and hate.....and facts, truth and reality have no place in what you believe....

43 times more likely........you keep posting that number...so here is the response, again....


Kellerman who did the study that came up with the 43 times more likely myth, was forced to do the research over when other academics pointed out how flawed his methods were....he then changed the 43 times number to 2.7, but he was still using flawed data to get even that number.....

Below is the study where he changed the number from 43 to 2.7 and below that is the explanation as to why that number isn't even accurate.

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199310073291506

After controlling for these characteristics, we found that keeping a gun in the home was strongly and independently associated with an increased risk of homicide (adjusted odds ratio, 2.7;

------------


Nine Myths Of Gun Control

Myth #6 "A homeowner is 43 times as likely to be killed or kill a family member as an intruder"

To suggest that science has proven that defending oneself or one's family with a gun is dangerous, gun prohibitionists repeat Dr. Kellermann's long discredited claim: "a gun owner is 43 times more likely to kill a family member than an intruder." [17] This fallacy , fabricated using tax dollars, is one of the most misused slogans of the anti-self-defense lobby.

The honest measure of the protective benefits of guns are the lives saved, the injuries prevented, the medical costs saved, and the property protected not Kellermann's burglar or rapist body count.

Only 0.1% (1 in a thousand) of the defensive uses of guns results in the death of the predator. [3]

Any study, such as Kellermann' "43 times" fallacy, that only counts bodies will expectedly underestimate the benefits of gun a thousand fold.

Think for a minute. Would anyone suggest that the only measure of the benefit of law enforcement is the number of people killed by police? Of course not. The honest measure of the benefits of guns are the lives saved, the injuries prevented, the medical costs saved by deaths and injuries averted, and the property protected. 65 lives protected by guns for every life lost to a gun. [2]

*Kellermann recently downgraded his estimate to "2.7 times," [18] but he persisted in discredited methodology. He used a method that cannot distinguish between "cause" and "effect." His method would be like finding more diet drinks in the refrigerators of fat people and then concluding that diet drinks "cause" obesity.*


Also, he studied groups with high rates of violent criminality, alcoholism, drug addiction, abject poverty, and domestic abuse .


From such a poor and violent study group he attempted to generalize his findings to normal homes

*Interestingly, when Dr. Kellermann was interviewed he stated that, if his wife were attacked, he would want her to have a gun for protection.[19] Apparently, Dr. Kellermann doesn't even believe his own studies.*
*

-----
*

Public Health and Gun Control: A Review



Since at least the mid-1980s, Dr. Kellermann (and associates), whose work had been heavily-funded by the CDC, published a series of studies purporting to show that persons who keep guns in the home are more likely to be victims of homicide than those who don¹t.

In a 1986 NEJM paper, Dr. Kellermann and associates, for example, claimed their "scientific research" proved that defending oneself or one¹s family with a firearm in the home is dangerous and counter productive, claiming* "a gun owner is 43 times more likely to kill a family member than an intruder."8*

*In a critical review and now classic article published in the March 1994 issue of the Journal of the Medical Association of Georgia (JMAG), Dr. Edgar Suter, Chairman of Doctors for Integrity in Policy Research (DIPR), found evidence of "methodologic and conceptual errors," such as prejudicially truncated data and the listing of "the correct methodology which was described but never used by the authors."5 *

Moreover, the gun control researchers failed to consider and underestimated the protective benefits of guns.

Dr. Suter writes: "The true measure of the protective benefits of guns are the lives and medical costs saved, the injuries prevented, and the property protected ‹ not the burglar or rapist body count.

Since only 0.1 - 0.2 percent of defensive uses of guns involve the death of the criminal, any study, such as this, that counts criminal deaths as the only measure of the protective benefits of guns will expectedly underestimate the benefits of firearms by a factor of 500 to 1,000."5

In 1993, in his landmark and much cited NEJM article (and the research, again, heavily funded by the CDC), Dr. Kellermann attempted to show again that guns in the home are a greater risk to the victims than to the assailants.4 Despite valid criticisms by reputable scholars of his previous works (including the 1986 study), Dr. Kellermann ignored the criticisms and again used the same methodology.

*He also used study populations with disproportionately high rates of serious psychosocial dysfunction from three selected state counties, known to be unrepresentative of the general U.S. population.*

*For example, 

53 percent of the case subjects had a history of a household member being arrested, 

31 percent had a household history of illicit drug use, 32 percent had a household member hit or hurt in a family fight, and 

17 percent had a family member hurt so seriously in a domestic altercation that prompt medical attention was required. 
Moreover, both the case studies and control groups in this analysis had a very high incidence of financial instability.*

In fact, in this study, gun ownership, the supposedly high risk factor for homicide was not one of the most strongly associated factors for being murdered.

*Drinking, illicit drugs, living alone, history of family violence, living in a rented home were all greater individual risk factors for being murdered than a gun in the home. One must conclude there is no basis to apply the conclusions of this study to the general population.*

All of these are factors that, as Dr. Suter pointed out, "would expectedly be associated with higher rates of violence and homicide."5

*It goes without saying, the results of such a study on gun homicides, selecting this sort of unrepresentative population sample, nullify the authors' generalizations, and their preordained, conclusions can not be extrapolated to the general population.*

Moreover, although the 1993 New England Journal of Medicine study purported to show that the homicide victims were killed with a gun ordinarily kept in the home, the fact is that as Kates and associates point out 71.1 percent of the victims were killed by assailants who did not live in the victims¹ household using guns presumably not kept in that home.6


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 25, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > Moron...I am the one reporting that minorities and women make up the biggest growth area in gun ownership.....you obviously have a problem with skin color, and then you project your problem onto the people you argue with...you really need help.
> ...




No.....on Koresh, we point out he could have been peacefully arrested at any time, since it was known he would often walk, by himself, unarmed, into the local town......instead, the ATF wanted a big raid to justify their budget for upcoming congressional budget hearings...

Randy Weaver?    The FBI tried forcing him to be an informant...when he refused they conducted a raid on his home killing his wife.

So please, you are an irrational nut job....


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 25, 2021)

2aguy said:


> joe....you are the role model for an anti-gun extremist who relies on emotions and hate.....and facts, truth and reality have no place in what you believe....
> 
> 43 times more likely........you keep posting that number...so here is the response, again....



You can keep posting that shit all day, but Kellerman's study stands.  Guns are more dangerous to the people who live with them than they are to bad guys.  

Because when you have situations of suicide or domestic violence, the gun makes it possible to elevate to a tragedy pretty damned quick.


----------



## Bootney Lee Farnsworth (Jun 25, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Kellerman's study stands.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 25, 2021)

2aguy said:


> No.....on Koresh, we point out he could have been peacefully arrested at any time, since it was known he would often walk, by himself, unarmed, into the local town......instead, the ATF wanted a big raid to justify their budget for upcoming congressional budget hearings...



You can point that out, but the reality- Koresh was molesting kids and trafficking in guns.  Just arresting him wasn't the point, it was the fact he was selling modified weapons at gun shows to support his cult lifestyle. 



2aguy said:


> Randy Weaver? The FBI tried forcing him to be an informant...when he refused they conducted a raid on his home killing his wife.



I think you are a little confused.  The ATF tried to get him to be an informant on other Nazis he hung out with, after he bought an illegal gun from an ATF agent.  He then murdered a US Marshall trying to execute a lawful arrest.  His Nazi wife was killed when he and his buddy started shooting it out with FBI agents.  

Let's keep in mind, if he were a black guy pulling this shit, they wouldn't have waited days to try to resolve the situation.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Jun 25, 2021)

MarcATL said:


> Why would Black people vote for a party that's openly *hostile* to them?


They wouldn’t, and they don’t – a party that is actively engaged in disenfranchising black Americans.


----------



## C_Clayton_Jones (Jun 25, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> Don't give me your rubbish about tyrannical governments etc.


It is rubbish.


----------



## Bob Blaylock (Jun 25, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Kellerman's study stands.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 26, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > joe....you are the role model for an anti-gun extremist who relies on emotions and hate.....and facts, truth and reality have no place in what you believe....
> ...


Kellerman's study has been debunked so it doesn't stand at all

And suicide isn't a crime


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 26, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> Kellerman's study has been debunked so it doesn't stand at all



Kellerman's study is just fine. It just doesn't say what you want.  

So let's have a study, and categorize every last one of the 39,000 gun deaths.  

Here are your categories. 

1) Suicide  (we guess this number is about 23,000) 
2) Accident (about 800 a year)
3) Murder by a criminal in the commission of a crime.
4) Murder by a household member/neighbor member during a domestic argument
5) Lethal force used by a police officer (1000 a year or so)
6) Lethal force used by a civilian in self-defense (200)  

Now, we DO know that the number of gun homicides is about 14,000 a year. Take out the self-defense and police shootings and you get that down to about 12,800 a year.  

So the big question becomes- How many of those were domestic homicides and how many were criminal homicides?   if the number breaks down to 80/20, then, yes, Kellerman had it right on the nose. 



Blues Man said:


> And suicide isn't a crime




Actually, suicide isn't a crime, but attempted suicide is.  So is assisting a suicide, just ask Dr. Death.   Obviously, you can't lock them up after they are dead. 

The law in the US is kind of ambiguous... mostly because you can't really prosecute someone after they killed themselves, and if they survive the attempt, the usual focus is on getting them help, not punishing them.


----------



## Hollie (Jun 26, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > ypical rabid leftist. Play the race card.
> ...



Playing the race card is pretty typical of the rabid left. Their narrative is typically race based and the Democrat party has now focused on white people as the root of all evil.

Very strange how “scared little white people” are not the majority of gun purchasers. What a shame that the fraud pressing rabid leftist is again simply a purveyor of lies.









						Black Americans Have Been Buying More Guns During The Pandemic
					

Black Americans accelerated their gun purchases during the coronavirus pandemic, outpacing other demographic groups, even as President Joseph Biden vowed to ramp up gun control measures.




					www.forbes.com


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 26, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > Kellerman's study has been debunked so it doesn't stand at all
> ...


It's meaningless.

It's no different than saying if you have a pool that you're 5 times more likely to drown than if you don't have a pool.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 26, 2021)

Hollie said:


> Playing the race card is pretty typical of the rabid left. Their narrative is typically race based and the Democrat party has now focused on white people as the root of all evil.
> 
> Very strange how “scared little white people” are not the majority of gun purchasers. What a shame that the fraud pressing rabid leftist is again simply a purveyor of lies.



The vast majority of gun owners are white people. 

But it's not the average gun owner that's the problem, it's the super-owner who buys enough guns to fight off the Zombies, and those guys are all white.  

They are also the most likely to become mass shooters.  



Blues Man said:


> It's meaningless.
> 
> It's no different than saying if you have a pool that you're 5 times more likely to drown than if you don't have a pool.



If we are going back to Kellerman, then, um, no, it's not meaningless. 

We know that we have 39K gun deaths in this country, every year.  Guns make up 79% of the homicides (15,083 out of 18,913 homicides in 2019)  and 50% of the suicides (23941 out of 47478 suicides in 2019) , 

We can also throw in 486 accidental gun deaths... 






						Guns in the United States — Firearms, gun law and gun control
					

Gun law, gun control statistics, number of guns in United States, gun deaths, firearm facts and policy, armed violence, public health and development




					www.gunpolicy.org
				




Now, remember, the whole value of having a gun, according to the 2TinyGuys of the world, is to "protect" ourselves from bad guys.   But according to the FBI, only 200 homicides a year by civilians with guns are classified as "Justified".    So for every time a gun has "saved" a life, there were  197 times a gun caused a death that wasn't 'justified". 

Now, you could argue that people would find other ways to off themselves or each other if the country wasn't flooded with guns.  Um, yeah. I guess.  But that is an awful lot of carnage for very little material benefit.


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 26, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Playing the race card is pretty typical of the rabid left. Their narrative is typically race based and the Democrat party has now focused on white people as the root of all evil.
> ...


 Suicides don't count.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 26, 2021)

Blues Man said:


> Suicides don't count.



Go tell that to someone who lost a family member to suicide.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 26, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > joe....you are the role model for an anti-gun extremist who relies on emotions and hate.....and facts, truth and reality have no place in what you believe....
> ...




I just showed you he changed his study....you can't say "But Kellerman's study stands," when he himself changed it....you idiot.

The Japanese commit more suicide than Americans...that dog don't hunt, you dumb ass........


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 26, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > No.....on Koresh, we point out he could have been peacefully arrested at any time, since it was known he would often walk, by himself, unarmed, into the local town......instead, the ATF wanted a big raid to justify their budget for upcoming congressional budget hearings...
> ...




Yeah.....koresh may or may not have been all of those things.......

The point, you fucking moron....is that a lawful arrest of koresh could have been done without killing all of those children you say were in danger......you moron....your God....the government.....killed them......when they could have simply arrested him in town or on his walk to or from town....they fucked up and got those children killed, you asshat....


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 26, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Blues Man said:
> 
> 
> > Suicides don't count.
> ...


Suicide isn't a gun issue it's a mental health issue and people do have the right to end their own lives if they want to.


----------



## Hollie (Jun 26, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Playing the race card is pretty typical of the rabid left. Their narrative is typically race based and the Democrat party has now focused on white people as the root of all evil.
> ...


 ''The vast majority of gun owners are white''.

Oh, dear. You didn't identify why that is so terrible other than those evil white people owning Guns offends your delicate sensibilities. 

Actually, I wasn't aware of those evil, super-white, super-gun owners. How do you know they are all white? 

Once again, the rabid leftist makes totally nonsensical, totally unsupported claims. Pretty typical for rabid, leftist hacks.


----------



## Hollie (Jun 26, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Playing the race card is pretty typical of the rabid left. Their narrative is typically race based and the Democrat party has now focused on white people as the root of all evil.
> ...


Oddly, I wasn't aware that you, personally, were tasked with deciding which parts of the Constitution were materially beneficial and which were not. 

Such a weighty burden you gear. 

Oh, by the way, the ''whole value'' of having a gun is not to protect ourselves. Shooting sports is a rapidly growing segment of firearms ownership.

Your typical use of broad, sweeping generalizations on matters which you have no facts is concerning,


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 26, 2021)

Hollie said:


> JoeB131 said:
> 
> 
> > Hollie said:
> ...


The latest stats say that almost half of all new gun owners are Black and female which I think is great.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 26, 2021)

2aguy said:


> I just showed you he changed his study....you can't say "But Kellerman's study stands," when he himself changed it....you idiot.



Nope, he never did.  He clarified some points, but he never took back his study.  



Hollie said:


> Oddly, I wasn't aware that you, personally, were tasked with deciding which parts of the Constitution were materially beneficial and which were not.



Again, when you live like a Founding Slave Rapist and shit in a chamberpot and use leeches to cure diseases, you can come back to me about how all-wise they were.  

I don't spend a lot of time worrying about the fact they couldn't define a "well-regulated militia" clearly, I know that they never foresaw the kind of gun proliferation we have today and wouldn't have seen it as a good thing.  Guns in colonial times were RARE, and most people didn't have access to them. That was the point.  

Any street punk can be a big man for $300.00 is kind of a problem.


----------



## Hollie (Jun 26, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > I just showed you he changed his study....you can't say "But Kellerman's study stands," when he himself changed it....you idiot.
> ...


Again, when you identify who made you the leftist in charge of what Constitutional amendments are to be abandoned, get back to me.

I really do find it comical that pompous leftists rattle off bellicose claims that are utter nonsense.

So, let’s examine another of your nonsense claims regarding, “Guns in colonial times were RARE, and most people didn't have access to them.”

As we have seen through this thread, you simply invent “phacts” that will support your specious claims. 


			https://scholarship.law.wm.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1489&context=wmlr
		


“Gun ownership is particularly high compared to other common items. For example, in 813 itemized male inventories from the 1774 Jones national database, guns are listed in 54% of estates, compared to only 30% of estates listing any cash,…”


----------



## Blues Man (Jun 26, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Nope, he never did. He clarified some points, but he never took back his study.


Yeah he changed the 43 times bullshit to 2.7 times

That's quite a walk back


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 26, 2021)

Moron......I gave you the actual new study he did where he changed the number from 43 to 2.7........you can lie, but I gave you the actual study........you idiot.

You vote for the political party of the people you call slave rapists...you idiot....

Guns in colonial times were not rare, you doofus....you tried to use the Michael Bellesiles book as your source...until I posted the fact that he had his award pulled and was fired for lying in his book about guns being rare.....

This is why we don't take assholes like you seriously....the truth, facts and reality don't support anything you believe or say, and then, when we show that the facts, truth and reality don't support anything you believe or say, you continue to lie.......


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 26, 2021)

Yeah...he knows........he likes to post it just to irritate me.............


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 27, 2021)

Hollie said:


> “Gun ownership is particularly high compared to other common items. For example, in 813 itemized male inventories from the 1774 Jones national database, guns are listed in 54% of estates, compared to only 30% of estates listing any cash,…”



Except most people didn't leave "estates"... that was the thing.    If you had an estate, you were among the property owning elite.  

Now, this is an important point, because in the days of the Founding Slave Rapists, they saw "the people" as white, land owning males, which was a small fraction of the population.   

A gun in those days cost as much as a skilled artisan's monthly wages, for a device that didn't have that much utility.  they weren't really good for hunting.  

It wasn't until later in the 18th century that guns were mass produced and became more common.  In fact, the NRA was originally founded because a Union General was horrified about how UNSKILLED with guns most Northern men were.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 27, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Moron......I gave you the actual new study he did where he changed the number from 43 to 2.7........you can lie, but I gave you the actual study........you idiot.



Yeah, except the study wasn't done by Kellerman, all they did was say, if you take out the suicides, the number goes down to 2.7 homicides to 1 criminal homicide.   That wasn't the point, really.   The fact is, a gun in the house made a suicide possible.  Sure that person COULD have found other methods, but they are all less effective and more trouble, so a household without guns would have a lesser change of suicide. 

I've known of three people who committed suicide.  Two used guns, one walked in front of a train.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 27, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Moron......I gave you the actual new study he did where he changed the number from 43 to 2.7........you can lie, but I gave you the actual study........you idiot.
> 
> You vote for the political party of the people you call slave rapists...you idiot....



Um, sorry, Dick Tiny, there were no "Democrats" in 1787.  There were Federalists and Democratic-Republicans. The Democratic Party really didn't become "a thing" until Andrew Jackson.  The Federalists, Democratic Republicans and Whigs also supported slavery.  



2aguy said:


> Guns in colonial times were not rare, you doofus....you tried to use the Michael Bellesiles book as your source...until I posted the fact that he had his award pulled and was fired for lying in his book about guns being rare.....











						Most Americans Did Not Own Guns at the Start of the American Revolution
					

By Harry Schenawolf, author of the Shades of Liberty Series about African American soldiers in the American Revolution. Remember that scene in The Patriot where Mel Gibson scooped up a bunch of gun…




					www.revolutionarywarjournal.com
				




*Colonials were farmers and had no need to nor did they hunt. Only a very small percentage of the population actually acquired their food through wild game. *This is as incredible as it sounds, and unbelievable after generations of text and later media portrayals of colonial Americans as wilderness warriors*. *But the truth is, our forefathers obtained their meat the same way their relatives did in Europe, from domestic livestock. They were farmers. They spent long hours on their farms, tilling the soil and raising crops and all the animals necessary to feed their families. The chores were numerous and lasted all day and all year long. They had no time to wonder through wooded lands, carrying an expensive musket that cost an entire year’s earnings which was also notoriously inaccurate, hoping to find large game that was far more scarce than today. Oh, and forget about grove bored rifles. They were even more expensive and rare, made by a small number of gunsmiths in America who still had to import the firing mechanism from Europe. Besides, the forests were heavily wooded. Getting off a good shot that wouldn’t be deflected by all the vegetation was nearly impossible. So why bother even owning a gun when all you had to do is raise some beef cattle, a few cows, some hogs, and chickens and walk out to the barn and slaughter all the meat needed. Even frontier communities and settlers brought their livestock with them. And as for hunting – they too found it time consuming and less productive, trying to bag large game in the tight forests. Most brought in wild meat for their family’s consumption by trapping small game which proved much more efficient to supplement their slaughtered livestock.





2aguy said:


> This is why we don't take assholes like you seriously....the truth, facts and reality don't support anything you believe or say, and then, when we show that the facts, truth and reality don't support anything you believe or say, you continue to lie.......



Guy, the problem is that you cling to your mythologies about guns being common and useful, when they really weren't.


----------



## Hollie (Jun 27, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > “Gun ownership is particularly high compared to other common items. For example, in 813 itemized male inventories from the 1774 Jones national database, guns are listed in 54% of estates, compared to only 30% of estates listing any cash,…”
> ...


You’re desperately trying to cover for your fraudulent, invented claims. The  data was presented to you, the data confounded your bogus, “… because I say so”, claims so you’re hoping to do damage control for your wounded ego.


----------



## Hollie (Jun 27, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > Moron......I gave you the actual new study he did where he changed the number from 43 to 2.7........you can lie, but I gave you the actual study........you idiot.
> ...


Leftists guy, I found it comical that you abandoned your earlier bending and scraping before the Altar of Michael Bellesiles and decided to plow new furrows in the field of the left.




			https://scholarship.law.wm.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1489&context=wmlr
		


Page 3 of 67.,
“The picture of gun ownership that emerges from these analyses substantially contradicts the assertions of Michael Bellesiles in Arming America: The Origins of a National Gun Culture (Arming America). Contrary to Arming America's claims about probate inventories in seventeenth and eighteenth-century America, there were high numbers of guns, guns were much more common than swords or other edged weapons, women in 1774 owned guns at rates (18%) higher than Bellesiles claimed men did in 1765-1790 (14.7%), and 87-91% of gun-owning estates listed at least one gun that was not old or broken.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 27, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > “Gun ownership is particularly high compared to other common items. For example, in 813 itemized male inventories from the 1774 Jones national database, guns are listed in 54% of estates, compared to only 30% of estates listing any cash,…”
> ...




They didn't leave estates....the gun was simply passed to the next of kin, you idiot...here....your dad's dead, here's his rifle.....you moron.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 27, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > Moron......I gave you the actual new study he did where he changed the number from 43 to 2.7........you can lie, but I gave you the actual study........you idiot.
> ...




Shit bird.....the democrat party was founded by actual slave owners, in particular, Andrew Jackson and another guy.....you support the actual political party of slave rapists to this day....you moron.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 27, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > Moron......I gave you the actual new study he did where he changed the number from 43 to 2.7........you can lie, but I gave you the actual study........you idiot.
> ...




The attempt to change reality to enforce gun control knows no limits.........guns were an essential part of colonial life....considering the chances of indian raids, you doofus..........


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 27, 2021)

Moron...


JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > Moron......I gave you the actual new study he did where he changed the number from 43 to 2.7........you can lie, but I gave you the actual study........you idiot.
> ...




Kellerman got caught, and changed his number...but still didn't change the underlying flawed data he used to get to that number..........

The Japanese, commit suicide just fine without guns....as do many european countries that have higher suicide rates than the U.S.......

Funny how many people who know you commit suicide.....


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## Bob Blaylock (Jun 27, 2021)

2aguy said:


> Shit bird.....the democrat party was founded by actual slave owners, in particular, Andrew Jackson and another guy.....you support the actual political party of slave rapists to this day....you moron.



  And in fact, Incel Joe's generalization of the founding fathers as _“slave rapists”_ is off-target.

  I'd love to be able to say that they all opposed slavery, but that's not true.  Slavery was controversial, at that time.  Though the Constitution doers not directly address slavery, it contains a few provisions that were compromises between those who supported slavery, and those who opposed it.

  But, as you point out, Incel Joe is most aligned with those who supported slavery.




2aguy said:


> Funny how many people who know you commit suicide.....



  It stands out, in a more general sense, that the experiences that Incel Joe claims to have had, regarding other people, are not those that most of us have, in our dealings with normal people.  No surprise, given that he's rather obviously a criminal and a mental case, that he hangs out with those similar to himself, and therefore sees the sort of issues that he sees; and then assumes that normal, decent, mainstream Americans are no different that himself and the scum with whom he associates.


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## JoeB131 (Jun 28, 2021)

Hollie said:


> You’re desperately trying to cover for your fraudulent, invented claims. The data was presented to you, the data confounded your bogus, “… because I say so”, claims so you’re hoping to do damage control for your wounded ego.



No, dummy, it's just a matter of history and technology.  Guns were expensive in 1776 and just not terribly useful.

Muskets were only effective militarily when fired in volley.  Then they had to resort to fighting with bayonets.  The colonists had few guns, they had to import them from France, which bankrupted itself supporting our war effort.



Hollie said:


> Leftists guy, I found it comical that you abandoned your earlier bending and scraping before the Altar of Michael Bellesiles and decided to plow new furrows in the field of the left.



Not at all.  Just pointing out that the myth of the minuteman is exactly that.



2aguy said:


> They didn't leave estates....the gun was simply passed to the next of kin, you idiot...here....your dad's dead, here's his rifle.....you moron.



More like "your dad is dead, he didn't have a rifle because it would have cost more than a year's salary and he was dirt poor, like you are."



2aguy said:


> Shit bird.....the democrat party was founded by actual slave owners, in particular, Andrew Jackson and another guy.....you support the actual political party of slave rapists to this day....you moron.



So where the Federalists, the Whigs, and the Democratic-Republicans... This country was built on slavery.  I know, this hurts your feelings, and don't you dare ever teach Critical Race Theory, because, um, reasons.

Getting back to guns, the purpose of the guns was to maintain white supremacy. Rich WHITE people were supposed to have guns, not the unwashed rabble.




2aguy said:


> The attempt to change reality to enforce gun control knows no limits.........guns were an essential part of colonial life....considering the chances of indian raids, you doofus..........


"Indian Raids".   Uh, guy, the Native Americans weren't the perpetrators of violence, they were the VICTIMS.  We genocided the fuck out of those poor bastards, but usually, it was done at the point of GOVERNMENT guns, not private guns.  In fact, it was illegal to sell weapons to Native Americans.




2aguy said:


> Kellerman got caught, and changed his number...but still didn't change the underlying flawed data he used to get to that number..........



Kellerman clarified, but the numbers still don't tell the fantasies you want about playing Batman.



2aguy said:


> The Japanese, commit suicide just fine without guns....as do many european countries that have higher suicide rates than the U.S.......



The Japanese live in a culture where suicide is acceptable.  We don't.




2aguy said:


> Funny how many people who know you commit suicide.....



I said "people I know of".  One was a neighbor I barely talked to.  The other was a child of a friend I never met personally.  The third person was a clinically depressed person who I met once or twice. (She was an in-law of a good friend.)  

But leave it to you and Mormon Bob to make light of other people's tragedies...  Hey, speaking of Mormon Creeps.



Bob Blaylock said:


> I'd love to be able to say that they all opposed slavery, but that's not true. Slavery was controversial, at that time. Though the Constitution doers not directly address slavery, it contains a few provisions that were compromises between those who supported slavery, and those who opposed it.



Guy, the Constitution specifically says slaves count as 3/5th of a white person.   It also prohibited the Federal Government from preventing the importation of new slaves at a time when the British were stomping out the slave trade.  (Section 1, Article 9). 





__





						Interpretation: The Slave Trade Clause | The National Constitution Center
					

SECTION. 1. All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.



					constitutioncenter.org
				




The more fundamental problem is that the Founding Fathers talked all this flowerly language about "All Men being created equal", but still put in a bunch of laws allowing the continuation of slavery.

We can also talk about how Brigham Young tried to bring Utah into the Union as a slave state.



Bob Blaylock said:


> It stands out, in a more general sense, that the experiences that @Incel Joe claims to have had, regarding other people, are not those that most of us have, in our dealings with normal people. No surprise, given that he's rather obviously a criminal and a mental case, that he hangs out with those similar to himself, and therefore sees the sort of issues that he sees; and then assumes that normal, decent, mainstream Americans are no different that himself and the scum with whom he associates.




Wow, you see, this is why I have kind of contempt for you, the lack of compassion. 

My neighbor who killed himself was suffering from cancer, and couldn't afford medical treatment. He was in extreme pain every day.   Yes, he was poor, but that didn't make him a bad person.  Just kind of tragic. 

This is why real Christians don't consider Mormons to be Christian, because you fucks are pretty much the opposite about what Jesus talked about.


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## Hollie (Jun 28, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > You’re desperately trying to cover for your fraudulent, invented claims. The data was presented to you, the data confounded your bogus, “… because I say so”, claims so you’re hoping to do damage control for your wounded ego.
> ...


As we see with regularity, the angry leftist insists that his "...because I say so" commandments are to be taken seriously. 

Guns were common among the pre-revolutionary settlers as the data shows. When you have a rabid leftist narrative to press, facts don't matter.


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## JoeB131 (Jun 28, 2021)

Hollie said:


> As we see with regularity, the angry leftist insists that his "...because I say so" commandments are to be taken seriously.
> 
> Guns were common among the pre-revolutionary settlers as the data shows. When you have a rabid leftist narrative to press, facts don't matter.



They data doesn't show that at all, in fact, it shows quite the opposite. 

Here's the thing. Guns were really expensive in colonial America. They were in fact a luxury item.   A simple musket cost as much as a skilled artisan's monthly wages.  

Now, when was the last time you spent a months wages on a single item?  The only time we do that today is when we buy something like a home or a car.  

So we have no established that if you were a simple dirt farmer or a skilled artisan, you really couldn't afford a gun.  The next question becomes, did you need one. 

Well, again, they weren't useful for hunting.  They just weren't that accurate.  They didn't use them for protection from Native Americans.  When they wanted to steal native land, they sent in the military.


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## Hollie (Jun 28, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > As we see with regularity, the angry leftist insists that his "...because I say so" commandments are to be taken seriously.
> ...


Actually, the data shows clearly that guns  were commonly owned among the pre-revolutionary settlers. Ignoring the data won't make it go away. 

Well, again, your "...because I say so"  claims are not usefull outside of the orbit of rabid leftists.


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## 2aguy (Jun 28, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > You’re desperately trying to cover for your fraudulent, invented claims. The data was presented to you, the data confounded your bogus, “… because I say so”, claims so you’re hoping to do damage control for your wounded ego.
> ...



*"Indian Raids".   Uh, guy, the Native Americans weren't the perpetrators of violence, they were the VICTIMS. *


You are an idiot...

*Native raiding parties attacked homesteads and villages throughout Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, and Maine over the next six months, and the Colonial militia retaliated. The Narragansetts remained neutral, but several individual Narragansetts participated in raids of colonial strongholds and militia, so colonial leaders deemed them to be in violation of peace treaties.
-----
They pushed back the colonial frontier in Massachusetts Bay, Plymouth, and Rhode Island colonies, burning towns as they went, including Providence in March 1676. 
-----
The war was the greatest calamity in seventeenth-century New England and is considered by many to be the deadliest war in Colonial American history.[9] In the space of little more than a year, 12 of the region's towns were destroyed and many more were damaged, the economy of Plymouth and Rhode Island Colonies was all but ruined and their population was decimated, losing one-tenth of all men available for military service.[10][a] More than half of New England's towns were attacked by Natives.[12] Hundreds of Wampanoags and their allies were publicly executed or enslaved, and the Wampanoags were left effectively landless.[13] 
----*

Southern theater, 1675[edit]​*Raid on Swansea[edit]*​*A band of Pokanokets attacked several isolated homesteads in the small Plymouth colony settlement of Swansea on June 20, 1675.[22] They laid siege to the town, then destroyed it five days later and killed several more people. On June 27, 1675, a full eclipse of the moon occurred in the New England area,[23] and various tribes in New England thought it a good omen for attacking the colonists.[24] Officials from the Plymouth and Massachusetts Bay colonies responded quickly to the attacks on Swansea; on June 28, they sent a punitive military expedition that destroyed the Wampanoag town at Mount Hope in Bristol, Rhode Island.
*
*The war quickly spread and soon involved the Podunk and Nipmuc tribes. During the summer of 1675, the Natives attacked at Middleborough and Dartmouth, Massachusetts (July 8), Mendon, Massachusetts (July 14), Brookfield, Massachusetts (August 2), and Lancaster, Massachusetts (August 9). In early September, they attacked Deerfield, Hadley, and Northfield, Massachusetts.*









						King Philip's War - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## 2aguy (Jun 28, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > You’re desperately trying to cover for your fraudulent, invented claims. The data was presented to you, the data confounded your bogus, “… because I say so”, claims so you’re hoping to do damage control for your wounded ego.
> ...




The democrat party was founded by slave owners, you idiot.......and it went on to push to get slaves in new states, to restart the slave trade with Africa, and then started the Civil War to keep slaves...you idiot...

You support the only political party that started a Civil War to keep slaves, you doofus.


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## 2aguy (Jun 28, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > You’re desperately trying to cover for your fraudulent, invented claims. The data was presented to you, the data confounded your bogus, “… because I say so”, claims so you’re hoping to do damage control for your wounded ego.
> ...


The Japanese live in a culture where suicide is acceptable.  We don't.

One....it doesn't matter if they think it is acceptable..you say guns make it easier to commit suicide, you dumb ass......they have a higher suicide rate than we do and they don't use guns, you idiot.......

Besides that.....

Two.........And yet Scotland has a higher suicide rate than the U.S......Japan, where only criminals and cops have guns, has a higher suicide rate than the U.S....Sweden has a higher suicide rate than the U.S....Denmark has a higher suicide rate than the u.S.....



France

Germany,

Hungary

Iceland

New Zealand

Poland

Norway

Japan

South Korea



https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/suiciderate.html



Scotland..



15.7 suicides per 100,000

In 2019?

16.7 suicides per 100,000.

And in the U.S.?

13.93 per 100,000


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## 2aguy (Jun 28, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > As we see with regularity, the angry leftist insists that his "...because I say so" commandments are to be taken seriously.
> ...




Idiot.....guns were vital to surviving in the wilderness...you moron........not to forget that each man had to provide a musket for his militia service... a private weapon with enough powder and shot...you moron.


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## DrLove (Jun 28, 2021)

Great post, and it would appear we have bipartisan agreement!


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## basquebromance (Jun 28, 2021)

A 2013 Department of Justice memorandum determined that “Assault weapons are not a major contributor to gun crime” and that “a complete elimination of assault weapons would not have a large impact on gun homicides.”

/thread


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## JoeB131 (Jun 28, 2021)

Hollie said:


> Actually, the data shows clearly that guns were commonly owned among the pre-revolutionary settlers. Ignoring the data won't make it go away.
> 
> Well, again, your "...because I say so" claims are not usefull outside of the orbit of rabid leftists.



It doesn't show anything of the sort, and simple logic would indicate otherwise.  

In a pre-industrial era, they just weren't manufacturing that many guns to start with.  It's why France backing the revolution was kind of a big deal.. .The French sent guns.  



2aguy said:


> Idiot.....guns were vital to surviving in the wilderness...you moron........not to forget that each man had to provide a musket for his militia service... a private weapon with enough powder and shot...you moron.



Hey, stupid, a few things here. 

First, the Colonial Army was never bigger than 40,000 men at any one time. 

Most of those guns were not "privately owned".  

In fact, they really couldn't be, they'd have a hell of time with logistics. 

In fact, the second most common Musket after the Brown Bess imported from the UK for standing militias, was the French Charleville musket.  









						Charleville musket - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




What little manufacture of weapons in the US required European components.


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## Hollie (Jun 28, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Actually, the data shows clearly that guns were commonly owned among the pre-revolutionary settlers. Ignoring the data won't make it go away.
> ...


Actually, the data supplied to you utterly contradicts your "... because I say'', claims.

It really is interesting how divorced you are from facts .



			https://scholarship.law.wm.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1489&context=wmlr
		


"For example, in the itemized personal property inventories of white males in the three databases listed, gun ownership ranges from 54% to 73%. Because the Jones database is weighted to match the entire country in 1774, we can estimate that at least 50% of all wealth owners (both males and females) owned guns. We also show that our counts are generally consistent with other published counts of guns, including those of Alice Hanson Jones, Gloria L. Main, Anna Hawley, Judith McGaw, and Harold Gill.''


From the link above:

"Although Anna Hawley's article is not about guns, she compared the frequency of common items in 221 probate inventories in Surry County, a relatively poor agricultural Virginia county, from 1690 to 1715. She notes that in this county, the staple crops-tobacco and corn-needed to be hoed several times a year, 7 yet only 34% of Surry estates list any hoes.'" Hawley found that guns were the most commonly listed of the six items she counted. In the middling to affluent groups (the 60% of estates ranked from the 30th to the 90th percentiles), there were the following percentages of these common items: 
Guns (63-69%), 
Tables (50-64%), 
Seating furniture (40-68%), 
Hoes (35-41%), 
Axes (31-33%), 
Sharp knives (18-20%). 
19 Among the wealthiest 10% of estates, only 4% had sharp knives, but 74% had guns. None of the six items she counted were as common as guns, which appear to have been present in 50% or more of estates overall.20''




Curious how the actual data conflicts with your, ''... because I say so'', nonsense.


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## JoeB131 (Jun 29, 2021)

Hollie said:


> Actually, the data supplied to you utterly contradicts your "... because I say'', claims.
> 
> It really is interesting how divorced you are from facts .



No, it just proves that people who were wealthy enough to leave estates listed guns, because guns were a rare commodity back in those days. 

Do you really think that only 50% of people had "tables"?


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## Hollie (Jun 29, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Actually, the data supplied to you utterly contradicts your "... because I say'', claims.
> ...


No, it just provides data that you find offensive because the data counters your ''... because I say so'', nonsense. 

You're a bit slow on the uptake. Tables, as well as the other items listed, were possessions commonly identified. They were valued possessions which is why they were part of the estate listings. 

Do you really think your factless opinions are taken seriously in view of the data that exists?


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## JoeB131 (Jun 29, 2021)

Hollie said:


> No, it just provides data that you find offensive because the data counters your ''... because I say so'', nonsense.



Except it's incomplete data... it only covers "People rich enough to have an estate that needed to be clarified by a will".   

Most people didn't leave estates back in the day.  Their relatives just swooped in and divided their stuff.  

So that rich people owned guns and listed them in their property just shows guns were something only rich people could afford.  



Hollie said:


> You're a bit slow on the uptake. Tables, as well as the other items listed, were possessions commonly identified. They were valued possessions which is why they were part of the estate listings.



Naw, slow is thinking only 50% of people had tables.    More likely, they didn't consider them that important.  The gun was important because it was something that had to be imported.  Imported goods were expensive.


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## 2aguy (Jun 29, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > Actually, the data supplied to you utterly contradicts your "... because I say'', claims.
> ...




And people who weren't wealthy simply handed down the guns without a record, you idiot.


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## JoeB131 (Jun 29, 2021)

2aguy said:


> And people who weren't wealthy simply handed down the guns without a record, you idiot.



No, people who weren't wealthy couldn't afford them.  That's the whole point.  

Putting something on a boat and shipping it from England or France was expensive, which is why they were limited to luxury goods back in the day.   That's why Taxing Tea was such a big deal.  Tea was a luxury item, and people didn't like paying more for it.


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## Hollie (Jun 29, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > No, it just provides data that you find offensive because the data counters your ''... because I say so'', nonsense.
> ...


The data indicates nothing about "People rich enough to have an estate...". That is, as usual, you inserting your specious opinion in the absence of fact. "Estate" is a term to identify the money, debts, personal property, etc. of an individual at the time of their death. You should take the time to learn some pretty common terms and definitions.

As we see with regularity, your "table complex" is resolved with "... they probably...". 

Your tactic of dismissing the data with specious "... because I say so" nonsense is simply not credible.


----------



## 2aguy (Jun 29, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> 2aguy said:
> 
> 
> > And people who weren't wealthy simply handed down the guns without a record, you idiot.
> ...




The had gun smiths in the colonies you idiot.


----------



## JoeB131 (Jun 29, 2021)

Hollie said:


> The data indicates nothing about "People rich enough to have an estate...". That is, as usual, you inserting your specious opinion in the absence of fact. "Estate" is a term to identify the money, debts, personal property, etc. of an individual at the time of their death. You should take the time to learn some pretty common terms and definitions.



Um, yeah.. exactly my point.  People who actually had money, not the majority of dirt farmers who made up the population of the colonial US.  



2aguy said:


> The had gun smiths in the colonies you idiot.



They had gun smiths who relied on importing the mechanisms from Europe.  The two most prevelant models of guns were the British Brown Bess and the French Chevelier...  

American manufacturers were well into the future... and they fucked up everything. Smith, Colt, Winchester.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Jun 29, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > The data indicates nothing about "People rich enough to have an estate...". That is, as usual, you inserting your specious opinion in the absence of fact. "Estate" is a term to identify the money, debts, personal property, etc. of an individual at the time of their death. You should take the time to learn some pretty common terms and definitions.
> ...


Efforts were also implemented to make use of the limited production capabilities within the Colonies. An estimated 2,500 to 3,000 gunsmiths were available, of which perhaps two-thirds favored the American cause (Moller I). Early in 1775, local “committees of safety” were already placing orders with those makers. (Some modern collectors describe all American Revolutionary War muskets as “committee of safety” guns. This term should only refer to those arms produced under a “committee” contract. Few survived and most were not identified by the makers who feared retaliation by Royal authorities.)








						An Official Journal Of The NRA | American-Made Muskets In The Revolutionary War
					

As galloping express riders and ringing church bells spread across New England during the early hours of April 19, 1775, thousands of farmers and tradesmen carrying a variety of firearms poured out of their homes and headed toward Lexington and Concord to intercept the British Army column...




					www.americanrifleman.org


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## JoeB131 (Jun 29, 2021)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Efforts were also implemented to make use of the limited production capabilities within the Colonies. An estimated 2,500 to 3,000 gunsmiths were available, of which perhaps two-thirds favored the American cause (Moller I). Early in 1775, local “committees of safety” were already placing orders with those makers. (Some modern collectors describe all American Revolutionary War muskets as “committee of safety” guns. This term should only refer to those arms produced under a “committee” contract. Few survived and most were not identified by the makers who feared retaliation by Royal authorities.)



That's kind of the point.  There are very few examples of "Committee of Safety Guns" because there weren't a lot of them made.  

Most of the guns used in the Revolutionary War (Or War of Independence, if you prefer) were imported from Britain and France.  And there weren't that many of them.  

The colonial Army never exceeded 40,000 men.


----------



## basquebromance (Jun 29, 2021)




----------



## Hollie (Jun 30, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> Hollie said:
> 
> 
> > The data indicates nothing about "People rich enough to have an estate...". That is, as usual, you inserting your specious opinion in the absence of fact. "Estate" is a term to identify the money, debts, personal property, etc. of an individual at the time of their death. You should take the time to learn some pretty common terms and definitions.
> ...


You didn't have an actual point. Your argument is classic leftist "... because I say so", despite the data that you can't refute.


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Jun 30, 2021)

JoeB131 said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > Efforts were also implemented to make use of the limited production capabilities within the Colonies. An estimated 2,500 to 3,000 gunsmiths were available, of which perhaps two-thirds favored the American cause (Moller I). Early in 1775, local “committees of safety” were already placing orders with those makers. (Some modern collectors describe all American Revolutionary War muskets as “committee of safety” guns. This term should only refer to those arms produced under a “committee” contract. Few survived and most were not identified by the makers who feared retaliation by Royal authorities.)
> ...


if true it doesn't mean guns still weren't made in the home regardless of where the parts come from


----------

