# Why does Philosphy look so abandoned?



## KudoZ (Nov 30, 2012)

I came to this forum looking for a think tank.  I read the Politics blog and the debates but all I see are arguments with no one really facing issues and actually submitting ideas for change that will help America.  In my opinion a stalemate accomplishes nothing.  Doesn't this atmosphere remind you of the U.S. just before the Civil War?
  Anyway my point is we need thinkers outside the battle zone so I am reaching out to people whom I know see a bigger picture.  This is my first thread so please indulge me if I have stepped across the lines.  I seek truth and people who want to guide with their wisdom.
  I will continue to read the Political Forum, it's like reading the editorial/responce pages in the newspaper.  But I get little satisfaction when there is no agenda nor compassionate desire to join forces to turn things around.
  I thank you for your time.


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## Unkotare (Dec 1, 2012)

Some topics, like Philosophy, do not lend themselves to this type of format. Answering a philosophical question seriously and fully would take a post 20 - 30 pages long to start with. So, we are stuck with superficial self-indulgence by dime store, wannabe philosophers. It doesn't make for a good read or a real discussion.


Generally speaking, that is.


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## midcan5 (Dec 1, 2012)

I sorta mostly tentatively disagree.


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## oldfart (Dec 12, 2012)

KudoZ said:


> I came to this forum looking for a think tank.  I read the Politics blog and the debates but all I see are arguments with no one really facing issues and actually submitting ideas for change that will help America.  In my opinion a stalemate accomplishes nothing.  Doesn't this atmosphere remind you of the U.S. just before the Civil War?
> Anyway my point is we need thinkers outside the battle zone so I am reaching out to people whom I know see a bigger picture.  This is my first thread so please indulge me if I have stepped across the lines.  I seek truth and people who want to guide with their wisdom.
> I will continue to read the Political Forum, it's like reading the editorial/responce pages in the newspaper.  But I get little satisfaction when there is no agenda nor compassionate desire to join forces to turn things around.
> I thank you for your time.



Much of the good in philosophy is experential.  Rather than a debate or dissertation, look for a mentor.  In my faith tradition, such a person is called a taoshi.  You identify them not by what they say but by how they live.  Avoid anyone who seeks truth.  Truth is the illusion men use to convince themselves that they are good when they do evil.  Watch more than you act, hear more than you say, understand more than you explain.  Understand that motive usually follows action rather than preceeds it.  Be comfortable with paradox.  Good luck, but more importantly, have fun.

Jamie


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## Unkotare (Dec 12, 2012)




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## Wiseacre (Dec 12, 2012)

You're in the Philosophy forum, so can I assume you are referring to Political Philosophy?   If it's kept on a philosophical level, maybe the mods will leave it here.   So, put something out there, and start a discussion on something.

   Re the Politics forum, emotions run high when it comes to politics and religion.   There's not a lot of interest in coming together, mostly it's about saying this is why my side is right and your side is not.   You kind of have to be selective in who you get into a discussion with.


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## RoccoR (Dec 14, 2012)

Wiseacre,  _et al,_

I had to think about this, as it just didn't sound right.



Wiseacre said:


> You're in the Philosophy forum, so can I assume you are referring to Political Philosophy?   If it's kept on a philosophical level, maybe the mods will leave it here.   So, put something out there, and start a discussion on something.
> 
> Re the Politics forum, emotions run high when it comes to politics and religion.   There's not a lot of interest in coming together, mostly it's about saying this is why my side is right and your side is not.   You kind of have to be selective in who you get into a discussion with.


*(COMMENT)*

I don't know that there is any such thing as true "Political Philosophy?"  Unless, it is the philosophy of being reelected or maintaining influence and power.  Clearly, politicians act in their own best interest.  Maybe that could be a topic:  How Politicians have chosen to represent themselves and their party, but not the people.

On the other hand, I don't think the category of "PHILOSOPHY" should be tied down to merely "political" aspects.  That turns into a very subjective compilation of examples and discussions - not based on logic - but interpretations.  I have a very low opinion of politicians and don't believe they operate on a philosophic basis but more of a criminal or financial basis.  You'll notice that most politicians are not poli-sci majors.

Just my thought.

Most respectfully,
R


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## spectrumc01 (Dec 14, 2012)

Political philosophy is the conservative vs liberal views, and is tied to the political spectrum and where one falls on the spectrum.  I think political philosophy and politics are two different animals.  The problem here is that people tend to not match these two together, i.e. one person is arguing philosophy and the other is arguing politics, and neither side makes any progress to understanding the other. (if that is the desire, which in most cases doesn't seem to be the case).

This is all my opinion, and I have no facts to back it up.


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## midcan5 (Dec 14, 2012)

On the other hand it could be said that all philosophy is political for isn't philosophy about things like justice, rights, morality, and how we should live. Plato Aristotle Hobbes Rousseau Locke Mill Hegel Popper, their work is about society - how we live together and how we work out our differences, what's government for, is justice possible. John Rawls, Robert Nozick, Jeremy Waldron, Stanley Fish, Peter Singer, Isaiah Berlin, and lots more are the modern political philosophers. X-phi today is about testing the theories or rather assumptions we think correct. Wasn't Jesus and other religious leaders philosophers and consider an opposing viewpoint, the philosophy of Ayn Rand. Philosophy is deliberative and thus hard for most people as their ideas and responses are reactions rather than analysis. 

"'Individuals have rights, and there are things no person or group may do to them without violating their rights.' 'Each person possesses an inviolability founded on justice that even the welfare of society as a whole cannot override.' 'There would be no point in the boast that we respect individual rights unless that involved some sacrifices, and the sacrifice in question must be that we give up whatever marginal benefits our country would receive from overriding these rights when they prove inconvenient.'"   Nozick, Rawls, Dworkin


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## Votto (Dec 22, 2012)

oldfart said:


> KudoZ said:
> 
> 
> > I came to this forum looking for a think tank.  I read the Politics blog and the debates but all I see are arguments with no one really facing issues and actually submitting ideas for change that will help America.  In my opinion a stalemate accomplishes nothing.  Doesn't this atmosphere remind you of the U.S. just before the Civil War?
> ...



Avoid truth?

Well then, at least we can avoid your post then.


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## Votto (Dec 22, 2012)

KudoZ said:


> I came to this forum looking for a think tank.  I read the Politics blog and the debates but all I see are arguments with no one really facing issues and actually submitting ideas for change that will help America.  In my opinion a stalemate accomplishes nothing.  Doesn't this atmosphere remind you of the U.S. just before the Civil War?
> Anyway my point is we need thinkers outside the battle zone so I am reaching out to people whom I know see a bigger picture.  This is my first thread so please indulge me if I have stepped across the lines.  I seek truth and people who want to guide with their wisdom.
> I will continue to read the Political Forum, it's like reading the editorial/responce pages in the newspaper.  But I get little satisfaction when there is no agenda nor compassionate desire to join forces to turn things around.
> I thank you for your time.



The reason politics is so contentious is that we develop a world view that we create to make sense of the world.  Once someone damages that world view, our ability to make sense of that world is threatened.

Put another way, we can prove precious little.  In fact, you could argue that nothing can be proven.  All we have are what we perceive to be facts.  In and of themselves, these facts are meaningless until we assign these facts value.  We assign these facts value based upon how these facts and effect our lives and the lives of others.  Othewise these facts are delegated to the realm of trivia and deemed useless.

Essentially what we do is assign facts value, interpret their correlation to other world events, and incorporate them into our lives.  Simply put, our only ability to function revolves around a beleif system of some kind.  We then use this beleif system as a foundation and begin to build upon it.  Christ once said that a fool builds his house on a sub par foundation and at some point the entire structure they have pain stakingly built upon is counted as a total loss.  The irony here is the more they build and invest on that structure, the more investment they have to defend in that structure.  That is why a belief system is perhaps the most important aspect of our existence, and also why it is often defended to the death and often causes our ruin.  Of course, once a belief system has been compromised, a crisis of sorts develops until we can either mend or adopt a new belief system, assuming that we can recover.

I suppose that is why most people avoid discussing topics such as religion and politics.  The other party has a belief system related to these things that inevitably differ from your own in some way, and any attempt to contradict their belief system is perceived as a threat to their ability to make sense of the world.  In the end, philosophy is at the heart of each of these belief systems.  The philosophy of politics cover how we wish to tell everyone else how to live.   Religion is also geared in this direction, but to a lesser degree except in theocracies in the Middle East.  As a result, political discourse receives the most attention on these boards as well as pretty much anywhere else you go, for everyone seems to know what is best for the chap down the street.

It is somewhat humbling to know that we are all such self righteous power hungry pricks, but that's just how it is.


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## Unkotare (Dec 22, 2012)

Unkotare said:


> Some topics, like Philosophy, do not lend themselves to this type of format. Answering a philosophical question seriously and fully would take a post 20 - 30 pages long to start with. So, we are stuck with superficial self-indulgence by dime store, wannabe philosophers. It doesn't make for a good read or a real discussion.
> 
> 
> Generally speaking, that is.




...like I said...


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## oldfart (Jan 2, 2013)

Votto said:


> oldfart said:
> 
> 
> > Much of the good in philosophy is experential.  Rather than a debate or dissertation, look for a mentor.  In my faith tradition, such a person is called a taoshi.  You identify them not by what they say but by how they live.  Avoid anyone who seeks truth.  Truth is the illusion men use to convince themselves that they are good when they do evil.  Watch more than you act, hear more than you say, understand more than you explain.  Understand that motive usually follows action rather than preceeds it.  Be comfortable with paradox.  Good luck, but more importantly, have fun.  Jamie
> ...



Your powers of perception match your  grasp of language.  In your case consistency is not a virtue.


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## oldfart (Jan 2, 2013)

Votto said:


> It is somewhat humbling to know that we are all such self righteous power hungry pricks, but that's just how it is.



In other words, everyone pursues their enlightened self-interest as they see it?


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