# 21 Goals of the Illuminati and The Committee of 300



## rtwngAvngr (Mar 7, 2006)

Some interesting reading.


http://educate-yourself.org/cn/johncolemangoalsofIlluminati.shtml



> 21 Goals of the Illuminati and The Committee of 300
> 
> By Dr. John Coleman.
> http://educate-yourself.org/cn/johncolemangoalsofIlluminati.shtml
> ...


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## Nienna (Mar 7, 2006)

Not enough brain power left to digest this tonight. I'll try again tomorrow.


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## dilloduck (Mar 7, 2006)

When's the next meeting?


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## rtwngAvngr (Mar 7, 2006)

dilloduck said:
			
		

> When's the next meeting?




I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.


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## dilloduck (Mar 7, 2006)

rtwngAvngr said:
			
		

> I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.



what if I can get ya lined up with some hot chick?


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## Nienna (Mar 7, 2006)

dilloduck said:
			
		

> what if I can get ya lined up with some hot chick?


Does he have any skills? Girls only like guys with cool skills. And a delicious bass wouldn't hurt.


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## Nienna (Mar 7, 2006)

Is this an outline for the _Left Behind_ series?


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## rtwngAvngr (Mar 8, 2006)

mom4 said:
			
		

> Is this an outline for the _Left Behind_ series?



It's related, for sure.


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## Nienna (Mar 8, 2006)

rtwngAvngr said:
			
		

> It's related, for sure.


Are you just putting this out there as "food for thought," or do you wholeheartedly believe in all of it?


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## rtwngAvngr (Mar 8, 2006)

mom4 said:
			
		

> Are you just putting this out there as "food for thought," or do you wholeheartedly believe in all of it?



Somewhere in the middle.


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## 5stringJeff (Mar 8, 2006)

"They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast.  They will make war against the Lamb, but *the Lamb will overcome them because He is Lord of lords and King of kings.*"  Revelation 17:13-14


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## rtwngAvngr (Mar 8, 2006)

gop_jeff said:
			
		

> "They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast.  They will make war against the Lamb, but *the Lamb will overcome them because He is Lord of lords and King of kings.*"  Revelation 17:13-14




Yep.  That's why I don't sweat it.  I hope to get take up before the bad shit starts.


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## Hagbard Celine (Mar 8, 2006)

It's the Shriners man! They're out to get us...with their little red fez hats and their little bejeweled go-carts that they ride in parades. They're using all the change they're collecting from us to build their war machine man!


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## rtwngAvngr (Mar 8, 2006)

Hagbard Celine said:
			
		

> It's the Shriners man! They're out to get us...with their little red fez hats and their little bejeweled go-carts that they ride in parades. They're using all the change they're collecting from us to build their war machine man!



Actually, those will become conversion centers for the new Luciferian Religion.


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## StoptheMadness1 (Mar 9, 2006)

Wait a minute, wasn't I being attacked for talking about these subjects on this board?

What happened?

Well, at this point that doesn't matter, and i forgive you for attacking me, it's good to see this information being talked about.

Recently the president of the CFR, Richard Haass, said the following,

"For 350 years, sovereignty -- the notion that states are the central actors on the world stage and that governments are essentially free to do what they want within their own territory but not within the territory of other states -- has provided the organizing principle of international relations. The time has come to rethink this notion."

He continues...

"Globalization thus implies that sovereignty is not only becoming weaker in reality, but that *it needs to become weaker*. States would be wise to weaken sovereignty in order to protect themselves, because they cannot insulate themselves from what goes on elsewhere."

The globalists are coming out in the open, the mask that has concealed their horrendous face is being pealed back, and the existance of their agenda(s) can no longer be debated. 

The time will come for many to decide to either join this system, or to break away from it. 

The subject of biblical prophecy inevitably comes up in this discussion. 

Christians, take this into concideration. Take it or leave it.

Preparations are being done by the globalists (also known as the Illumaniti), they are preparing the way for the coming of their god, Lucifer. There will be no place for Christianity in this new order. The elite believe they have already "ascended" to godhood status, and thus believe that they are the "great white brotherhood," the chosen few who are "secretly directing the 'evolution' of mankind." 

The evolution which they speak of is in fact a Luciferian initiation.

Just as Lucifer attempted to be worshiped as a god, to place his throne above that of the living God (Isaiah 14:12), and was cast out of heaven, the illuminati will do the same. 

My friends, there exists an NGO (Non Governmental Organization), within the United Nations, which aims to help usher in this "new age." 

This organization is the Lucis Trust. Founded in 1920 by Alice A. Bailey, the organization was formerly known as the Lucifer trust, but had its name changed to Lucis trust in 1925. Nevertheless, the Luciferian foundations remain present.

The following is directly from the organization's site,

There is an inner government of the planet known under such different names as the spiritual Hierarchy, the society of illumined minds, or Christ and his Church, according to various religious traditions. Humanity is never left without spiritual guidance or direction under the Plan... The widespread expectation that we approach the age of Maitreya," as it is known in the East, when the World Teacher and present head of the spiritual Hierarchy, the Christ, will reappear among humanity to sound the keynote of the new age...." 

"There are millions of mentally alert men and women in all parts of the world who are on rapport with the Plan and work to give it expression. They are people in whom the consciousness of humanity as one interdependent unit is alive and active... These beliefs give a new dimension to spiritual reality .... They provide opportunity for cooperation with the spiritual evolution of humanity... there is no group so likely to ensure that humanity achieves this most difficult goal as the men and women of goodwill .... requiring only courage... to initiate action to prepare for the New World Order."

Who is the Christ of this new age? 

Christians, you know the answer to that question, he is the Anti-Christ, the _replacement _ christ.

Jesus Christ is Lord of Lords and King of Kings, the way the truth and the life, the only mediator between man and God. Those who have accepted Him as your savior, given yourself completely to him, are covered with is blood which was shed for you; have no fear, for greater is Him that is in you that he that is in the world. (1Jo 4:4)

If you are unsure about what is being talked about in this thread, take it to the throne of God, pray about it, ask in the name of Jesus that the holy spirit (which happily reveals and teaches all things) would help you understand.

God bless.


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## rtwngAvngr (Mar 9, 2006)

StoptheMadness1 said:
			
		

> Wait a minute, wasn't I being attacked for talking about these subjects on this board?
> 
> What happened?
> 
> ...



Yeah.  Also google "The Club Of Rome"  and "Share International"


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## rtwngAvngr (Mar 9, 2006)

http://www.mega.nu:8080/ampp/www.tlio.demon.co.uk/bildhist.htm

This is a great bunch of bilderberger links.


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## StoptheMadness1 (Mar 9, 2006)

rtwngAvngr, I really appreciate you bringing this up, I really do. 

Thank you.


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## rtwngAvngr (Mar 9, 2006)

StoptheMadness1 said:
			
		

> rtwngAvngr, I really appreciate you bringing this up, I really do.
> 
> Thank you.



I was giving the neocons the benefit of the doubt, but this Dubai Port world deal really unmasked the treachery for me.


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## Said1 (Mar 9, 2006)

StoptheMadness1 said:
			
		

> ."
> 
> Who is the Christ of this new age?
> 
> ...


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## StoptheMadness1 (Mar 9, 2006)

By replacement Christ, I mean that he will present himself as being the "true" savior of mankind. He will most likely, in my opinion, hold humanistic principles, the power of man, evolutionary concepts, etc. Much like the new age movement holds right now, such as the concept of "ascending" to godhood, and becoming "one" with the force. This concept revolves around the supposed inherent divinity of mankind, removing the need for any kind of redemption, and inevitably removing from the minds of many, the need for Jesus Christ.


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## dilloduck (Mar 9, 2006)

StoptheMadness1 said:
			
		

> By replacement Christ, I mean that he will present himself as being the "true" savior of mankind. He will most likely, in my opinion, hold humanistic principles, the power of man, evolutionary concepts, etc. Much like the new age movement holds right now, such as the concept of "ascending" to godhood, and becoming "one" with the force. This concept revolves around the supposed inherent divinity of mankind, removing the need for any kind of redemption, and inevitably removing from the minds of many, the need for Jesus Christ.



It certainly wouldn't replace the need of the WORD as given to Christians by Jesus.


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## dilloduck (Mar 9, 2006)

rtwngAvngr said:
			
		

> I was giving the neocons the benefit of the doubt, but this Dubai Port world deal really unmasked the treachery for me.



Damn--you and the rest of the country are in for a big surprise when you find out how "insecured" and "foreign owned" America really is.


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## Said1 (Mar 9, 2006)

StoptheMadness1 said:
			
		

> Much like the new age movement holds right now, such as the concept of "ascending" to godhood, and becoming "one" with the force. This concept revolves around the supposed inherent divinity of mankind, removing the need for any kind of redemption, and inevitably removing from the minds of many, the need for Jesus Christ.




That's why the author thinks a movement or institution and those who are members are like a collective Anti-Christ, not an individual as some might think. What it stands for "in place of Christ". Anyway, just one person's idea.


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## StoptheMadness1 (Mar 9, 2006)

> Damn--you and the rest of the country are in for a big surprise when you find out how "insecured" and "foreign owned" America really is.



Yeah, like under Clinton when he handed gigantic ports in California to China... Look that one up


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## Said1 (Mar 9, 2006)

dilloduck said:
			
		

> It certainly wouldn't replace the need of the WORD as given to Christians by Jesus.



I don't know, the idea of international policing and "we are one" is picking up momentum. Spend some time in a geography department on any campus.


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## dilloduck (Mar 9, 2006)

Said1 said:
			
		

> I don't know, the idea of international policing and "we are one" is picking up momentum. Spend some time in a geography department on any campus.



I'm not saying that the lightbulbs wouldn't TRY to replace the Word. I just don't why Christians would see this as a replacement for Jesus.


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## Said1 (Mar 9, 2006)

dilloduck said:
			
		

> I'm not saying that the lightbulbs wouldn't TRY to replace the Word. I just don't why Christians would see this as a replacement for Jesus.



I don't think these people are Christians, not in the traditional sense anyway. None that I've met, mostly granola crunchers and bearded Burgenstock wearing, make my own sanitary napkins,  tree hugging future yuppies.


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## dilloduck (Mar 9, 2006)

Said1 said:
			
		

> I don't think these people are Christians, not in the traditional sense anyway. None that I've met, mostly granola crunchers and bearded Burgenstock wearing, make my own sanitary napkins,  tree hugging future yuppies.



Christians have been put on notice to watch out for the likes of these--correct?


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## 5stringJeff (Mar 9, 2006)

dilloduck said:
			
		

> I'm not saying that the lightbulbs wouldn't TRY to replace the Word. I just don't why Christians would see this as a replacement for Jesus.



And indeed, there can be no replacement or substitution for Jesus in Christian theology.  That's why the antichrist is so evil - he sets himself up in Christ's place to be the savior/god of the earth.


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## StoptheMadness1 (Mar 9, 2006)

Well, dillo, understand, its not an actual replacement, it's a lie.

And that lie is deadly.

Imagine the world being told that they are all one, that we are divine in nature (that everyone gets to heaven no matter what realigion), and that Jesus was in fact, to use a new age term, an "ascended master" sent to earth to teach us of that "inherent divine nature." By changing the perception of what God has told us, and of what Jesus actually was (the savior of mankind, the one mediator between man and God, saves us from our sin's, etc) one of several "Christ's" who have come to earth at key points, I think you can see how the stage would be set for the apperance of a false Christ, even the Anti-Christ.

The serpent was the most subtle beast of the field, and his lies are poison. 

He whispered into the ears of Adam and Eve, "Ye shall be as gods," and questioning the word of God, creating doubt in their minds, saying, "Hath God said?"

Is there anything to protect ourselves from this deception?

Yes.

"Put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil." (Eph 6:11)


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## Said1 (Mar 9, 2006)

dilloduck said:
			
		

> Christians have been put on notice to watch out for the likes of these--correct?



You and your Socratic dialogue. Figure it out.


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## dilloduck (Mar 9, 2006)

StoptheMadness1 said:
			
		

> Well, dillo, understand, its not an actual replacement, it's a lie.
> 
> And that lie is deadly.
> 
> ...



Gotcha---so the point is that Christians need to be particularly aware right now so they don't get caught up in the lightbulb lies lest they lose thier immmortal souls.


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## StoptheMadness1 (Mar 9, 2006)

Once you start to understand the occult agenda that is driving the elite, pieces start to fall into place, and suddenly the world starts to make sense (if that is possible.)

I was invoved with the new age movement for several years, until by the wonderful grace of God, and by the saving power of Jesus Christ, I was brought out of it around two years ago. I searched for answers from new age guru's and teachers, i sought enlightenment through various rituals, and felt the need to "raise my consciousness," as to enhance my supposedly inherent god-like powers. I believed that the world was moving toward a "golden age" in which there would be enlightenment all over the globe. Through all of this I was still empty, not knowing where I was going, where the world was going, or who I was. As soon as I accepted Christ as my savior, a huge burden was lifted, and my eyes were opened to that which had been hidden from them for so long. 

With my background I have a unique view of what we are facing.

The Christian knows that the god of this world is is our adversary the devil, Satan, the father of lies. (2 Corinthians 4:4)

We are in fact living on enemy territory, and as I mentioned before, God has given us armor to defend ourselves from the weapons of Satan and his minions. This battle is spiritual, but we can see physical manifestations of it on the earth when see the fruits of those who serve darkness.

The Anti-Christ is described in the book of Revelation as having power over all kindreds and toungs of the earth. He forces everyone on earth to receive a mark in his right hand or forehead, and the kings of the earth submit themselves to him, and give power unto him. 

This picture described gives the impression that in this future world scenario, a tyrannical world government (along with world religion) is present through which the Anti-Christ is able to operate in such means. Through his working of great and wonderous miracles, many are decieved into believing that he is indeed God. All nations and countries submit to him, believing that he will solve the problems which have plagued the earth for so long. 

A question that naturally will come up is this; How will this world system come about? What do we need to look for?

The prophesies of Albert Pike give us a view of what the enemy is doing. Albert Pike, who was a high level mason and deep occultist, wrote a letter to Giuseppe Mazzini, dated August 15, 1871. This letter can be viewed in the British museum. 

The letter detailed three world wars which would take place, all of them leading to one ultimate goal; the ushering in of the "pure doctrine of Lucifer." Pike was said to have a "spirit guide" which would give him information, at times prophetic information.

The final both physical and spiritual battle is described in the following few paragraphs, 

"The Third World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences caused by the "agentur" of the "Illuminati" between the political Zionists and the leaders of Islamic World. The war must be conducted in such a way that Islam (the Moslem Arabic World) and political Zionism (the State of Israel) mutually destroy each other. Meanwhile the other nations, once more divided on this issue will be constrained to fight to the point of complete physical, moral, spiritual and economical exhaustionWe shall unleash the Nihilists and the atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to the nations the effect of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil. Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic spirits will from that moment be without compass or direction, anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the true light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view." 

I will have more tomorrow, for now I need to go to bed...


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## dilloduck (Mar 9, 2006)

StoptheMadness1 said:
			
		

> Once you start to understand the occult agenda that is driving the elite, pieces start to fall into place, and suddenly the world starts to make sense (if that is possible.)
> 
> I was invoved with the new age movement for several years, until by the wonderful grace of God, and by the saving power of Jesus Christ, I was brought out of it around two years ago. I searched for answers from new age guru's and teachers, i sought enlightenment through various rituals, and felt the need to "raise my consciousness," as to enhance my supposedly inherent god-like powers. I believed that the world was moving toward a "golden age" in which there would be enlightenment all over the globe. Through all of this I was still empty, not knowing where I was going, where the world was going, or who I was. As soon as I accepted Christ as my savior, a huge burden was lifted, and my eyes were opened to that which had been hidden from them for so long.
> 
> ...



Night--maybe next time you can tell us all what we need to do about it.


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## StoptheMadness1 (Mar 9, 2006)

What can we do about it?

Well, ultimately we can prepare ourselves, friends and family. It is possible to effect change through prayer, when the Lord says,

"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." (2 Chronicles 7:14)

Do we hear the mainstream televangalists calling for this?

Is it too late? I don't know. I do know that the bible says that this end time must come to pass. I don't particularly care for the idea that says we should just lay back and do nothing because we are powerless, I just don't buy into that. 

Another commandment which we are given is this,

"And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove (expose) them." (Ephesians 5:11)

Follow the Lord on the straight and narrow path.


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## dilloduck (Mar 9, 2006)

StoptheMadness1 said:
			
		

> What can we do about it?
> 
> Well, ultimately we can prepare ourselves, friends and family. It is possible to effect change through prayer, when the Lord says,
> 
> ...




I think strikes at the very heart of why people do not like the Christian message. Trying to dig a hole that God has already ordained to be impossible to dig seems futile and a cruel thing to ask of humans.


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## rtwngAvngr (Mar 10, 2006)

dilloduck said:
			
		

> I think strikes at the very heart of why people do not like the Christian message. Trying to dig a hole that God has already ordained to be impossible to dig seems futile and a cruel thing to ask of humans.



Maybe we can't stop it, but you have a say as to where your individual soul ends up.


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## Nienna (Mar 10, 2006)

I had a dream last night... I and some red-headed guy were running around trying to warn everyone not to take the bar code, that it was a trick. We kept having to stop because I kept asking questions about the port deal. The guy was getting really mad at me bc I just could not wrap my mind around it. I was like, "I don't understand it, but I'm trying to help!" So I was getting mad at him for getting mad at me. I wonder if that had anything to do with this thread....


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## Nienna (Mar 10, 2006)

Said1 said:
			
		

> You and your Socratic dialogue. Figure it out.


THAT'S what it is! You put your finger on it, Said! Now I understand dillo a little better. Thanks!


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## rtwngAvngr (Mar 10, 2006)

mom4 said:
			
		

> I had a dream last night... I and some red-headed guy were running around trying to warn everyone not to take the bar code, that it was a trick. We kept having to stop because I kept asking questions about the port deal. The guy was getting really mad at me bc I just could not wrap my mind around it. I was like, "I don't understand it, but I'm trying to help!" So I was getting mad at him for getting mad at me. I wonder if that had anything to do with this thread....




Wild!


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## Nienna (Mar 10, 2006)

rtwngAvngr said:
			
		

> Maybe we can't stop it, but you have a say as to where your individual soul ends up.


:HUG: Exactly! God is not so concerned with nations and governments, only with them as they affect His people. This world is already given over to Satan. God wants a harvest before He burns away the chaff. Prayer is a tool, not to achieve OUR ends, but to understand GOD'S plan.

I think you're right in what you say, dillo. I think people do become disillusioned with Christianity when they find out what it really means. It means YOU (not you,personally, dillo;I mean each individual) are no longer in control. As if you ever really were. Christianity is not about achieving your own happiness; it is about restoring the rightful order of creation. That we are created beings, here only for the pleasure of God. Praise God! He is loving, and His pleasure is to give us happiness in the long run.


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## dilloduck (Mar 10, 2006)

rtwngAvngr said:
			
		

> Maybe we can't stop it, but you have a say as to where your individual soul ends up.



what do you mean maybe?----it is certain we cannot stop it.


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## rtwngAvngr (Mar 10, 2006)

dilloduck said:
			
		

> what do you mean maybe?----it is certain we cannot stop it.



We can still try.


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## dilloduck (Mar 10, 2006)

rtwngAvngr said:
			
		

> We can still try.



Why bother? With x amount of time left seems like spending ones time in prayer and service to others would be much more productive than political ping pong. It's all ordained--bring it on. Heavens waiting.


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## Nienna (Mar 10, 2006)

dilloduck said:
			
		

> what do you mean maybe?----it is certain we cannot stop it.


We don't know exactly how it will play out. Maybe this time isn't THE time. And how long will it take, putting pieces in place? Maybe it won't go into effect for another generation or two. Why do you get up and breathe every morning? You're going to die SOMETIME.


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## StoptheMadness1 (Mar 10, 2006)

It is inevitable that it is coming, but we can effect some change while we still have the chance.

Just as an example, look at what we are doing right now. rtwngAvngr brought up the subject, and we are having a wonderful discussion about it. Just by talking about this and spreading the word (God's word) has to mean something, right?


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## rtwngAvngr (Mar 10, 2006)

dilloduck said:
			
		

> Why bother? With x amount of time left seems like spending ones time in prayer and service to others would be much more productive than political ping pong. It's all ordained--bring it on. Heavens waiting.



Your nihilism is charming.


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## dilloduck (Mar 10, 2006)

StoptheMadness1 said:
			
		

> It is inevitable that it is coming, but we can effect some change while we still have the chance.
> 
> Just as an example, look at what we are doing right now. rtwngAvngr brought up the subject, and we are having a wonderful discussion about it. Just by talking about this and spreading the word (God's word) has to mean something, right?



Support other Christians, convert some new ones and let the world go to hell.
I guess


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## Said1 (Mar 10, 2006)

mom4 said:
			
		

> You're going to die SOMETIME.



"and until you realize that, you are useless" - Brad Pitt.



@Stopthemaddness:


What new age "club" did you join?

I don't have a problem with new age stuff, it's just that those that seem the most legit often have strong elements of Christianity combined with their teachings, and aren't "group" oriented.


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## Nienna (Mar 10, 2006)

dilloduck said:
			
		

> Support other Christians, convert some new ones and let the world go to hell.
> I guess


Fight whatever evil we can, however we are called. Some people are called to politics.


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## dilloduck (Mar 10, 2006)

Said1 said:
			
		

> "and until you realize that, you are useless" - Brad Pitt.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No club---Jesus said his kingdom wasn't of this world anyway


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## Said1 (Mar 10, 2006)

dilloduck said:
			
		

> No club---Jesus said his kingdom wasn't of this world anyway




STM said they was once a part of a new age movement and I'm asking which one. I'm not talking about what Jesus said.


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## StoptheMadness1 (Mar 10, 2006)

Said1, 

I was involved with it during most of my highschool years. I can't say that I was part of a "club," although I had a friend who was also involved, who invited me to a ceremony at their house. Needless to say, when I witnessed what went on I realized the delusional quality of what I was doing. Not only the crazyness of it, but the pure blasphemous nature of it. 

The New Age movement is about the glorification of man, pure and simple.

This is one of the reasons why it is so seductive.

It is when Christians are subtly influenced by these forces, and adopt a syncretist doctrine that you move into dangerous territory.


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## Said1 (Mar 10, 2006)

StoptheMadness1 said:
			
		

> Said1,
> 
> I was involved with it during most of my highschool years. I can't say that I was part of a "club," although I had a friend who was also involved, who invited me to a ceremony at their house. Needless to say, when I witnessed what went on I realized the delusional quality of what I was doing. Not only the crazyness of it, but the pure blasphemous nature of it.
> 
> ...




Sounds like Wicca.


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## dilloduck (Mar 10, 2006)

mom4 said:
			
		

> Fight whatever evil we can, however we are called. Some people are called to politics.



Again--some feel as if fighting evil is a bit pointless since evil is ordained to win. Im just wondering if there is any logic to this. That's all. I'm cool if it's just all stuff you do to save your soul because indeed--we will all die.


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## StoptheMadness1 (Mar 10, 2006)

Dillo, yes, Jesus' kingdom is not of this world. So when this earthly world is eternally wicked, don't be saddened because in Jesus' words, the kingdom of heaven is nigh. 

Evil does not win in this battle.

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever." (Rev 2:10)

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth..." (Rev 2:1)

"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." (Rev 21:4)


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## Nienna (Mar 10, 2006)

dilloduck said:
			
		

> Again--some feel as if fighting evil is a bit pointless since evil is ordained to win. Im just wondering if there is any logic to this. That's all. I'm cool if it's just all stuff you do to save your soul because indeed--we will all die.


The POV is NOT supposed to be about "saving your soul." That's mother's milk. As if anything WE do could save our souls, anyway.

We don't worry about who will "win." That's God's business. "My food is to do the will of the One who sent me." When we don't CARE about the outcome, when we live solely to serve God, that's when we're dining on filet mignon.


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## dilloduck (Mar 10, 2006)

StoptheMadness1 said:
			
		

> Dillo, yes, Jesus' kingdom is not of this world. So when this earthly world is eternally wicked, don't be saddened because in Jesus' words, the kingdom of heaven is nigh.
> 
> Evil does not win in this battle.
> 
> ...



I'm not sad---things are inevitable--I've accepted that. But now I'm curious too---what group do you belong to?


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## StoptheMadness1 (Mar 10, 2006)

Do you mean what denomination?

If so, right now I don't belong to any particular denomination or group.

I worship the Lord in my home. "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." (Matt 18:20)

I havn't found a church to go to yet.


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## Nienna (Mar 10, 2006)

StoptheMadness1 said:
			
		

> Do you mean what denomination?
> 
> If so, right now I don't belong to any particular denomination or group.
> 
> ...


With your own family? Or is it a home church?


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## dilloduck (Mar 10, 2006)

StoptheMadness1 said:
			
		

> Do you mean what denomination?
> 
> If so, right now I don't belong to any particular denomination or group.
> 
> ...



Never mind--I can't blame ya for not sharing the stuff that you consider to be too personal.


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## dilloduck (Mar 10, 2006)

mom4 said:
			
		

> We don't know exactly how it will play out. Maybe this time isn't THE time. And how long will it take, putting pieces in place? Maybe it won't go into effect for another generation or two. Why do you get up and breathe every morning? You're going to die SOMETIME.






> Why do you get up and breathe every morning?



To enjoy the gift of life and share it. I just don't happen to like the concept that all is ordained but that's not in my hands.


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## Nienna (Mar 10, 2006)

dilloduck said:
			
		

> To enjoy the gift of life and share it. I just don't happen to like the concept that all is ordained but that's not in my hands.


Predestination? Doesn't jive well with me either.


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## StoptheMadness1 (Mar 10, 2006)

No, I see predestination as a false doctrine, doesn't jive well with me either.

We have free will to take or reject the gift of everlasting life through Jesus Christ.


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## dilloduck (Mar 10, 2006)

StoptheMadness1 said:
			
		

> No, I see predestination as a false doctrine, doesn't jive well with me either.
> 
> We have free will to take or reject the gift of everlasting life through Jesus Christ.



I was talking about the "end times". If THEY are ordained there isn't much motivation to fight with the hopes that good might win over evil.


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## StoptheMadness1 (Mar 10, 2006)

Jesus Christ has already won this battle for us when he died on the cross and rose again. 

The battle is already won!    

It is He (Jesus Christ) that goes into battle before us, and it is He that overcomes the enemy.

This verse has been brougt up before but it is worth pointing out again.

"These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the *Lamb shall overcome them*: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful." (Rev 17:13-14)


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## Nienna (Mar 10, 2006)

dilloduck said:
			
		

> I was talking about the "end times". If THEY are ordained there isn't much motivation to fight with the hopes that good might win over evil.


But, we *don't know* if these are the end times or not.


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## dilloduck (Mar 10, 2006)

StoptheMadness1 said:
			
		

> Jesus Christ has already won this battle for us when he died on the cross and rose again.
> 
> The battle is already won!
> 
> ...



sure---right after the world is destroyed.


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## Nienna (Mar 10, 2006)

dilloduck said:
			
		

> sure---right after the world is destroyed.


No before. Jesus rules for "a thousand years," no? THEN the world is destroyed?


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## dilloduck (Mar 10, 2006)

mom4 said:
			
		

> No before. Jesus rules for "a thousand years," no? THEN the world is destroyed?


 
not the way I read it.

guess it depends on what you believe again.



> Pretribulationists believe that all Christians then alive will be taken bodily up to Heaven (called the rapture or Parousia) before the Tribulation begins. Those who become Christians after the rapture will live through (or perish during) the Tribulation. After the Tribulation, Christ will return.
> Midtribulationists believe that the rapture of the faithful will occur halfway through the Tribulation, after it begins, but before the worst part of it occurs.
> Posttribulationists believe that Christians will not be taken up into Heaven until Christ returns at the end of the Tribulation. "Immediately after the tribulation ... then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man [Jesus] ... and he shall gather his elect" (Mat.24:29-31). In pretribulationism and midtribulationism, the rapture and the Second Coming (or Greek, paraousia) of Christ are separate events; while in posttribulationism the two events are identical or simultaneous


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## Said1 (Mar 10, 2006)

Where's FF1, he's the Tribulation expert!


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## rtwngAvngr (Mar 10, 2006)

Said1 said:
			
		

> Where's FF1, he's the Tribulation expert!



He realized his forum addiction was not good.  I think wifey gave him an ultimatum or something.


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## Said1 (Mar 10, 2006)

rtwngAvngr said:
			
		

> He realized his forum addiction was not good.  I think wifey gave him an ultimatum or something.




Hmm. Could be.


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## Nienna (Mar 10, 2006)

rtwngAvngr said:
			
		

> He realized his forum addiction was not good.  I think wifey gave him an ultimatum or something.


LOL! I knew him from 2 other forums, too.
Seemed like a nice guy, though.


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## rtwngAvngr (Mar 10, 2006)

mom4 said:
			
		

> LOL! I knew him from 2 other forums, too.
> Seemed like a nice guy, though.



yep.


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## StoptheMadness1 (Mar 11, 2006)

*Another piece of the puzzle*

Imagine the world being told that they have evolved, and are continuing to evolve to a state of "apotheosis."

Hitler, being part of the evolutionary school of thought, was able to murder innocent people because he believed he was ridding the world of defective seeds, paving the way for the new super race, a race of "god-men."

In the evolutionary mindset, moral authority does not come from God, but from man himself, he is the rule maker, he is his own god. 

Imagine that the elite of the earth (being evolutionists) believe that they have already achieved this state of god-hood, or apotheosis.

In this new world, God is no longer acknowledged as the authority. In place of Jesus Christ, a "universal Christ" is placed on the altar. This universal Christ serves the wants and needs of all religions of the world, and represents the evolved status of mankind. 

In 1986, pope John Paul II hosted an interfaith summit which involved all of the worlds religions gathered together. In the pope's closing statements, he said the following,

"I am conscious of the fact that many esteemed religious leaders have traveled long distances to be present at this concluding ceremony of the Interreligious Assembly. I am grateful to all who have worked to foster the spiritwhich makes this Assembly possible. Soon we shall listen to the Declaration, the fruit of your deliberations.As the world marks the close of one millennium and the opening of another, it is right that we take time to look back, in order to take stock of the present situation and move forward together in hope towards the future.Is it not...right to say that there is indeed a crisis of civilization which can be countered only by a new civilization of love.It is a sign of hope that in many parts of the world interreligious associations have been established to promote joint reflection and action.I am convinced that the increased interest in dialogue between religions is one of the signs of hope present in the last part of this century. Yet there is a need to go further. Greater mutual esteem and growing trust must lead to still more effective and coordinated common action on behalf of the human family."

Teilard de Chardin (May 1, 1881 - April 10, 1955), a Jesuit priest and philosopher who denied original sin (one of the basic principles of the new age, that is the denial of sin) and promoted the idea of the "universal Christ," said the following,

"I believe that the Messiah whom we await, whom we all without any doubt await the universal Christ; that is to say, the Christ of evolution. "

Barbara Marx Hubbard, a prominent new age mover and shaker, and founder of the Foundation for Conscious Evolution, is quoted in the following chilling paragraph, 

"Out of the full spectrum of human personality, one-fourth is electing to transcend with all their heart, mind and spirit ... One-fourth is resistant to election. They are unattracted by life ever- evolving. Their higher self is unable to penetrate the density of their mammalian senses. They cannot be reached ... They are defective seeds. ... Now, as we approach the quantum shift from creature-human to co-creative human ... the destructive one-fourth must be eliminated ... Fortunately you, dearly beloveds, are not responsible for this act. We are. We are in charge of God's selection process for planet Earth. He selects, we destroy. We are the riders of the pale horse, Death."

Christians are undoubtedly those refered to as "resistant to election," and "defective seeds." 

Be strong friends, and know that,

"...neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 3:38-39)


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## dilloduck (Mar 11, 2006)

StoptheMadness1 said:
			
		

> *Another piece of the puzzle*
> 
> Imagine the world being told that they have evolved, and are continuing to evolve to a state of "apotheosis."
> 
> ...



Thanks dude---I was worried there for a sec.


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## rtwngAvngr (Mar 15, 2006)

http://web.archive.org/web/20030609103208/http://centrexnews.com/columnists/svali/archive.html


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## StoptheMadness1 (Mar 19, 2006)

Greek Professor: "...all divine religions...have got to contribute to building a new world order.

http://www.irna.ir/en/news/view/menu-236/0603194562175226.htm

I just saw this article from the IRNA news agency. 

I thought it was an interesting new piece of information to add to the postings here.

While the objectives desired by this professor seem like a great idea, I can see how it fits quite nicely into the "Universal Christ" agenda that I posted about earlier.


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## rtwngAvngr (Mar 20, 2006)

Ecumenicism and new age crapola are all designed to dissuade bible based christians from their faith, and to stop them from spreading the truths of jesus.


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## dilloduck (Mar 20, 2006)

rtwngAvngr said:
			
		

> Ecumenicism and new age crapola are all designed to dissuade bible based christians from their faith, and to stop them from spreading the truths of jesus.



Who do the Illuminati have lined up for presidential candidates in '08 ?


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## rtwngAvngr (Mar 20, 2006)

dilloduck said:
			
		

> Who do the Illuminati have lined up for presidential candidates in '08 ?



Not sure.


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## Said1 (Mar 20, 2006)

rtwngAvngr said:
			
		

> Ecumenicism and new age crapola are all designed to dissuade bible based christians from their faith, and to stop them from spreading the truths of jesus.




I wouldn't say all, although a lot do. Some focus on surrendering. While their exerices may not seem traditional, their point is the same, to bring you closer to God.


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## Nuc (Mar 20, 2006)

rtwngAvngr said:
			
		

> Ecumenicism and new age crapola are all designed to dissuade bible based christians from their faith, and to stop them from spreading the truths of jesus.



Are you saying it's better for religions and branches of religions to be bickering constantly? That's one of the main sources of conflict in the world today. People should realize that religion is like a hobby. Not worth fighting about and certainly not something you should force other people to do.


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## rtwngAvngr (Mar 20, 2006)

Nuc said:
			
		

> Are you saying it's better for religions and branches of religions to be bickering constantly? That's one of the main sources of conflict in the world today. People should realize that religion is like a hobby. Not worth fighting about and certainly not something you should force other people to do.



I'm saying morality matters, and the ecumenical and new age movements are  an attempt to stop rational evaluation of moral systems with neat sounding slogans like "who are we to judge".


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## Nuc (Mar 20, 2006)

rtwngAvngr said:
			
		

> I'm saying morality matters, and the ecumenical and new age movements are  an attempt to stop rational evaluation of moral systems with neat sounding slogans like "who are we to judge".



Religious bickering kills hundreds of thousands of people each and every year. That's amoral. 

If everybody would live and let live THIS world would be a much better place. The next world will take care of itself. If it exists.


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## rtwngAvngr (Mar 20, 2006)

Nuc said:
			
		

> Religious bickering kills hundreds of thousands of people each and every year. That's amoral.
> 
> If everybody would live and let live THIS world would be a much better place. The next world will take care of itself. If it exists.



It's a misdiagnosis to say religion causes war.  Religion is simply and outgrowth of the human intellect.  It's like saying every culture who went to war also ate food, so food must cause war.  

How many millions have been killed for atheistic systems such as communism?


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## dilloduck (Mar 20, 2006)

Nuc said:
			
		

> Religious bickering kills hundreds of thousands of people each and every year. That's amoral.
> 
> If everybody would live and let live THIS world would be a much better place. The next world will take care of itself. If it exists.



Other than Islam, "religious bickering" is done by people who do NOT adhere to the principles of the religion they belong to.


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## dilloduck (Mar 20, 2006)

rtwngAvngr said:
			
		

> It's a misdiagnosis to say religion causes war.  Religion is simply and outgrowth of the human intellect.  It's like saying every culture who went to war also ate food, so food must cause war.
> 
> How many millions have been killed for atheistic systems such as communism?


  
Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, Attilla, Shaka etc----what religion did they kill in the name of?


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## rtwngAvngr (Mar 20, 2006)

dilloduck said:
			
		

> Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, Attilla, Shaka etc----what religion did they kill in the name of?



Secular humanism.


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## dilloduck (Mar 20, 2006)

rtwngAvngr said:
			
		

> Secular humanism.



Do the secular humanists know that they are a religion yet?


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## rtwngAvngr (Mar 20, 2006)

dilloduck said:
			
		

> Do the secular humanists know that they are a religion yet?



They have a blind faith.  That qualifies them as one whether they know it or not.


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## Nuc (Mar 20, 2006)

dilloduck said:
			
		

> Other than Islam, "religious bickering" is done by people who do NOT adhere to the principles of the religion they belong to.



Correct. 

If religious freedom came at a price of religious tolerance worldwide, we'd be a lot better off. 

I don't think religion causes wars, it's religious intolerance that causes or adds to them.


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## rtwngAvngr (Mar 20, 2006)

Nuc said:
			
		

> Correct.
> 
> If religious freedom came at a price of religious tolerance worldwide, we'd be a lot better off.
> 
> I don't think religion causes wars, it's religious intolerance that causes or adds to them.




So do we tolerate religions who do not tolerate other religions?


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## Nuc (Mar 20, 2006)

rtwngAvngr said:
			
		

> So do we tolerate religions who do not tolerate other religions?



Nope. What I'm saying is that in an ideal world you don't get religious freedom unless you give it to everybody else, AND mind your own business. 

People take religion too seriously, it's like music or food, a matter of taste.


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## rtwngAvngr (Mar 20, 2006)

Nuc said:
			
		

> Nope. What I'm saying is that in an ideal world you don't get religious freedom unless you give it to everybody else, AND mind your own business.
> 
> People take religion too seriously, it's like music or food, a matter of taste.





In a way it is.  But we need a common morality, to function as a society, a set of rules.  This is how religion is important to social cohesion.  In our country we have sort of an abstraction of judae-christian ethic as our public morality.  Religion may be a personal matter, but morality is not.


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## Nuc (Mar 20, 2006)

rtwngAvngr said:
			
		

> In a way it is.  But we need a common morality, to function as a society, a set of rules.  This is how religion is important to social cohesion.  In our country we have sort of an abstraction of judae-christian ethic as our public morality.  Religion may be a personal matter, but morality is not.



Other religions have moral codes as well. Buddhism has a strong moral code. 

I know some Christians who do whatever the hell they want and think they're getting away with it because they repent on a regular basis. Then they are forgiven, supposedly. You can't do that in Buddhism because there's no silver bullet. Karma accumulates. 

Most religions have basic ideas of right and wrong and proper behavior. Why does it have to be Judeo/Christian?


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## Nienna (Mar 20, 2006)

rtwngAvngr said:
			
		

> In a way it is.  But we need a common morality, to function as a society, a set of rules.  This is how religion is important to social cohesion.  In our country we have sort of an abstraction of judae-christian ethic as our public morality.  Religion may be a personal matter, but morality is not.


Dang, J! I wish I had more rep to give you!


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## rtwngAvngr (Mar 20, 2006)

Nuc said:
			
		

> Other religions have moral codes as well. Buddhism has a strong moral code.
> 
> I know some Christians who do whatever the hell they want and think they're getting away with it because they repent on a regular basis. Then they are forgiven, supposedly. You can't do that in Buddhism because there's no silver bullet. Karma accumulates.
> 
> Most religions have basic ideas of right and wrong and proper behavior. Why does it have to be Judeo/Christian?





The different religions postulate slightly different moral codes, each of which create a different type of society.  For me, eastern religions espouse a moral code which is a little too apathetic and leads to a sort of nihilistic fatalism, which is NOT empowering to the individual.  Emperors, of course, like people to be this way, docile.

We can examine morality rationally and decide.


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## Nuc (Mar 20, 2006)

rtwngAvngr said:
			
		

> The different religions postulate slightly different moral codes, each of which create a different type of society.  For me, eastern religions espouse a moral code which is a little too apathetic and leads to a sort of nihilistic fatalism, which is NOT empowering to the individual.  Emperors, of course, like people to be this way, docile.
> 
> We can examine morality rationally and decide.



"Eastern Religions"? Very broad term. Too broad. 

Buddhism is the ultimate in religion or philosophy geared towards the individual, because it teaches responsibility for oneself. It is a religion which does not espouse the blame game. Judaism is somewhat similar, but Christianity gives people an out. They can act as irresponsibly as they want for their entire lives as long as they have faith. Correct? Don't people say that Jeff Dahmer is in heaven because he repented in the end? In Buddhism he would still be accountable. 

Then there is the question of the term "Eastern Religion". Isn't Christianity a Middle Eastern religion? Judaism? They became popular in the West, but that isn't their original mindset. 

Worship the Greek or Norse gods and you've found "Western Religion".


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## rtwngAvngr (Mar 20, 2006)

Nuc said:
			
		

> "Eastern Religions"? Very broad term. Too broad.
> 
> Buddhism is the ultimate in religion or philosophy geared towards the individual, because it teaches responsibility for oneself. It is a religion which does not espouse the blame game. Judaism is somewhat similar, but Christianity gives people an out. They can act as irresponsibly as they want for their entire lives as long as they have faith. Correct? Don't people say that Jeff Dahmer is in heaven because he repented in the end? In Buddhism he would still be accountable.
> 
> ...



Buddhism is also self depriving in the physical and emotional sense.  Self denial is not the ultimate for of morality in my opinion, though wouldn't that be convenient for despots who want it all, to tell people their attachments to stuff are holding them back?  "Here I'll make it easy, give me everything you have." LOL.  What a scam!

I love christianity's "Go forth and be fruitful" mindset.

Some forms of christianity DO focus on the relationship and say love is all you need, but these are edging toward new age.  The moral code is the key in a sociological sense.  There is forgiveness, but not without repentance.

But we're getting off topic.  Do you deny that different moral codes lead to different kinds of societies?


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## Nuc (Mar 20, 2006)

rtwngAvngr said:
			
		

> Buddhism is also self depriving in the physical and emotional sense.  Self denial is not the ultimate for of morality in my opinion, though wouldn't that be convenient for despots who want it all, to tell people their attachments to stuff are holding them back?  "Here I'll make it easy, give me everything you have." LOL.  What a scam!
> 
> I love christianity's "Go forth and be fruitful" mindset.
> 
> ...



I don't understand your statements about Buddhism. 

Regarding religion and moral codes, it's a complicated issue because cultural things come into play that are not necessarily tied into the religion. Take sexual promiscuity for example. It is a trait of modern cultures regardless of religion. Opression of women, a sign of primitive cultures, Christian, Jewish, Islamic, Hindu or animistic. There is a lot more than religion that shapes morality. You pointed out that we live in a Judeo-Christian culture, but the morality here is not what it was even 40 years ago, and that's not because of an influx of immigrants from other religions. If anything the newcomers have stricter moral values than the established people here. So to answer your question I don't think different religions create different societies, but it is an element. Look at Christian countries in Europe. Do Scandinavia and Italy have similar morals?


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## rtwngAvngr (Mar 20, 2006)

Nuc said:
			
		

> I don't understand your statements about Buddhism.
> 
> Regarding religion and moral codes, it's a complicated issue because cultural things come into play that are not necessarily tied into the religion. Take sexual promiscuity for example. It is a trait of modern cultures regardless of religion. Opression of women, a sign of primitive cultures, Christian, Jewish, Islamic, Hindu or animistic. There is a lot more than religion that shapes morality. You pointed out that we live in a Judeo-Christian culture, but the morality here is not what it was even 40 years ago, and that's not because of an influx of immigrants from other religions. If anything the newcomers have stricter moral values than the established people here. So to answer your question I don't think different religions create different societies, but it is an element. Look at Christian countries in Europe. Do Scandinavia and Italy have similar morals?



If you don't understand my statement about buddhism, you don't understand buddhism.

It's a huge element.  And in all countries we have different levels of secular humanism, which also effects to what extent the native religion STILL influences the culture.


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## Nuc (Mar 20, 2006)

rtwngAvngr said:
			
		

> If you don't understand my statement about buddhism, you don't understand buddhism.



Let's see, I am a Buddhist. My wife has been a Buddhist since birth. She's from a country that has 80% Buddhist population. I've visited most of the Buddhist countries and participate in practice there. 

I'm sure you know a lot more about it than I do.


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## rtwngAvngr (Mar 20, 2006)

Nuc said:
			
		

> Let's see, I am a Buddhist. My wife has been a Buddhist since birth. She's from a country that has 80% Buddhist population. I've visited most of the Buddhist countries and participate in practice there.
> 
> I'm sure you know a lot more about it than I do.



Seems like maybe I do.  If you're not aware of the doctrine that suffering comes from attachment to things and people maybe you haven't skimmed the surface.


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## Nuc (Mar 20, 2006)

rtwngAvngr said:
			
		

> Seems like maybe I do.  If you're not aware of the doctrine that suffering comes from attachment to things and people maybe you haven't skimmed the surface.



Sure that's one of the main parts of the doctrine, but it falls under the category of an observation, not a directive. 

And I don't see how that leads to nihilism or a defeatist attitude as you said. I find Buddhism quite positive because by placing responsibility upon yourself it encourages you to think that you can become what you want through action.  Actually I think those attitudes (nihilism etc.) come more from whether a person is depressed or not than what religion they have.

Armageddon and end-time Christianity is nihilistic. It encourages people to think, "Who cares about the environment or future generations because it'll all be over soon anyway". 

Truth is you can find all kinds of positive or negative things to say about any religion depending on how you look at it.


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## rtwngAvngr (Mar 20, 2006)

Nuc said:
			
		

> Sure that's one of the main parts of the doctrine, but it falls under the category of an observation, not a directive.
> 
> And I don't see how that leads to nihilism or a defeatist attitude as you said. I find Buddhism quite positive because by placing responsibility upon yourself it encourages you to think that you can become what you want through action.  Actually I think those attitudes (nihilism etc.) come more from whether a person is depressed or not than what religion they have.
> 
> ...



And observations lead to worldviews which influence actions on a grand scale.

You can look at any religion any way you want but some interpretations are more accurate and truthful than others.  Becoming what you want through actions seems like too much ambition to be a truly buddhist thought.  But you look and see what you want. That's fine.  I'm just glad our laws are based on judaeo-christianity.


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## Nuc (Mar 20, 2006)

rtwngAvngr said:
			
		

> Becoming what you want through actions seems like too much ambition to be a truly buddhist thought.



Too ambitious to be Buddhist? Buddhism is an ambitious philosophy. Attaining enlightenment for oneself and guiding others towards it is not exactly a lethargic point of view. 

Isn't self reliance in short order nowadays? America could use a lot more and where it comes from, who cares? Don't look a gift horse in the mouth. 

 :usa:      :cof:


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## rtwngAvngr (Mar 20, 2006)

Nuc said:
			
		

> Too ambitious to be Buddhist? Buddhism is an ambitious philosophy. Attaining enlightenment for oneself and guiding others towards it is not exactly a lethargic point of view.
> 
> Isn't self reliance in short order nowadays? America could use a lot more and where it comes from, who cares? Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.
> 
> :usa:      :cof:



Enlightenment through self denial.  I just find it a bit negative to believe all attachments lead to suffering and the path to enlightenment is to not give a shit.  We disagree.  And that's ok.


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## The ClayTaurus (Mar 20, 2006)

Nuc said:
			
		

> Too ambitious to be Buddhist? Buddhism is an ambitious philosophy. Attaining enlightenment for oneself and guiding others towards it is not exactly a lethargic point of view.
> 
> Isn't self reliance in short order nowadays? America could use a lot more and where it comes from, who cares? Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.
> 
> :usa:      :cof:


That's not really what buddhism is. Take it from the non-buddhist.


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## rtwngAvngr (Mar 20, 2006)

The ClayTaurus said:
			
		

> That's not really what buddhism is. Take it from the non-buddhist.



 Lunch time, clay.


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## dilloduck (Mar 20, 2006)

How come the are only 300 lightbulbs ?


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## rtwngAvngr (Mar 21, 2006)

dilloduck said:
			
		

> How come the are only 300 lightbulbs ?



WHere?


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