# What Is The Republican Alternative To ObamaCare



## MarcATL (Nov 14, 2013)

And who is pushing it?

Does anyone really believe that the Republicans want to help Americans get good health insurance?


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## Amelia (Nov 14, 2013)

What is the Republican alternative to lies and fraud and telling people they're too stupid to understand that you're lying to them for their own good?

I hope it's something much more respectful of both their constituents and the democratic principles of our nation, but if it isn't and if I am made aware of that then I will reject it as strongly as I reject Obamacare.


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## MarcATL (Nov 14, 2013)

Amelia said:


> What is the Republican alternative to lies and fraud and telling people they're too stupid to understand that you're lying to them for their own good?
> 
> I hope it's something much more respectful of both their constituents and the democratic principles of our nation, but if it isn't and if I am made aware of that then I will reject it as strongly as I reject Obamacare.


Your Honor I present to you *Exhibit A*:

A Republican responded by *NOT *answering the question.


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## OKTexas (Nov 14, 2013)

First we are going to raise the voting age for federal elections to 26, if your too juvenile to provide yourself insurance, then voting is out of the question.

That makes just as much sense as the bull shit your dear leader was peddling today.


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## MarcATL (Nov 14, 2013)

OKTexas said:


> First we are going to raise the voting age for federal elections to 26, if your too juvenile to provide yourself insurance, then voting is out of the question.
> 
> That makes just as much sense as the bull shit your dear leader was peddling today.


Your Honor, I present to you *Exhibit B*:

Another Republican response that amounts to *NOT *having a solution.


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## Amelia (Nov 14, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> Amelia said:
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> > What is the Republican alternative to lies and fraud and telling people they're too stupid to understand that you're lying to them for their own good?
> ...




That's my answer to people who suggest that the only way Democrats will stop violating us is if we do something they consider somehow equivalent to what they did.  

Democrats lied and violated democratic principles and have no moral ground to stand on.

The ends do not justify the means.


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## oreo (Nov 14, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> And who is pushing it?
> 
> Does anyone really believe that the Republicans want to help Americans get good health insurance?




Yes, and they have said it for years--but you and all your liberal friends never listened.

1.  Insurance companies being able to cross state lines--bringing in more competition, thereby lowering premiums.
2 . Small business being able to group together to get the same lower rates as large corporations get, thereby making it affordable to cover employees that work for small business.
3.  Tort reform

*Sure sounds a hell of a lot better than what's going on today--doesn't it--*


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## Amelia (Nov 14, 2013)

oreo said:


> MarcATL said:
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Obamacare goes in the opposite direction.  Now not only can people not cross state lines to get insurance, they can't cross county lines.  Competition has taken a huge hit.


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## dblack (Nov 14, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> And who is pushing it?
> 
> Does anyone really believe that the Republicans want to help Americans get good health insurance?



I hope not, but they'll probably push the same crap the Democrats did.


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## tinydancer (Nov 14, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> And who is pushing it?
> 
> Does anyone really believe that the Republicans want to help Americans get good health insurance?



Well considering Obamacare is going to cost Americans more money as just admitted by the Administration, I'm not seeing where the Affordable Care Act is affordable.

Not a lot on the plus side for what you consider "good health care" .

* Revealed: Obamacare plans will cost MORE 'in many cases' even with government subsidies, officials admit for the first time

*

Obamacare plans cost more 'in many cases' even WITH government subsidies, Obama administration admits for the first time | Mail Online


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## tinydancer (Nov 14, 2013)

And Republican alternatives are out there. I found this in two seconds.

http://camp.house.gov/uploadedfiles/summary_of_republican_alternative_health_care_plan.pdf


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## dblack (Nov 14, 2013)

You're in good hands with Liz Fowler...


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## asterism (Nov 14, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> And who is pushing it?
> 
> Does anyone really believe that the Republicans want to help Americans get good health insurance?



House Republicans file, promote an alternative to Obamacare - Washington Times


Does anyone believe Obamacare is about healthcare?  Look at the results so far:

Tens of thousands have new healthcare in the exchanges
Millions have lost coverage


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## Political Junky (Nov 14, 2013)

Obviously, the GOP has no plan.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTyANr6zhdo]Mitch McConnell Struggles to Outline GOP Health Care Alternative - YouTube[/ame]


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## OKTexas (Nov 14, 2013)

Doesn't matter what is said or not here, you will call people liars and push your commie bull shit, and from what I'm seeing people ain't going to play your game, good for them.


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## ScienceRocks (Nov 14, 2013)

Throw the bums on the street

That is what the republicans want...


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## ScienceRocks (Nov 14, 2013)

Republican plan: Don't have the money = die!


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## asterism (Nov 14, 2013)

Political Junky said:


> Obviously, the GOP has no plan.
> 
> Mitch McConnell Struggles to Outline GOP Health Care Alternative - YouTube



Except for the one that's being proffered.

House Republicans file, promote an alternative to Obamacare - Washington Times


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## asterism (Nov 14, 2013)

Matthew said:


> Republican plan: Don't have the money = die!



Not true.

House Republicans file, promote an alternative to Obamacare - Washington Times


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## WelfareQueen (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> And who is pushing it?
> 
> Does anyone really believe that the Republicans want to help Americans get good health insurance?




1.  Sell insurance across State lines to increase Competition and lower cost.



2.  Tort reform.  Most studies save this would save around $250 billion a year.  That could help a lot of uninsured people, couldn't it?



3.  Expand health savings accounts



4.  Allow people with pre-existing conditions to get insurance, make it illegal to deny them insurance, and place them in risk pools that aggressively control costs.  


Repeal and Replace the Job-Destroying Health Care Law - A Pledge to America - GOP.gov


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## JakeStarkey (Nov 15, 2013)

"I hope it's something much more respectful of both their constituents and the democratic principles of our nation"  *You are disrespectful of the majority that voted twice for Obama, knowing that his signal legislation is ACA*


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## JakeStarkey (Nov 15, 2013)

"we are going to raise the voting age for federal elections to 26"  *no, we are not*


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## JakeStarkey (Nov 15, 2013)

oreo said:


> MarcATL said:
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And did the GOP, holding power from 1994 to 2006 with complacent Democrats, even make an attempt?


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## JakeStarkey (Nov 15, 2013)

tinydancer said:


> And Republican alternatives are out there. I found this in two seconds.
> 
> http://camp.house.gov/uploadedfiles/summary_of_republican_alternative_health_care_plan.pdf



Why was such not attempted by GOP in Congress from 1994 to 2006?


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## RandallFlagg (Nov 15, 2013)

Hmmm the simple answer is as follows.


317 million people in the United States


360 Million spent on a web site that doesn't work



Give every American 1 million dollars and let them get their own policy.



Problem solved.


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## TemplarKormac (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> And who is pushing it?
> 
> Does anyone really believe that the Republicans want to help Americans get good health insurance?



They offered many alternatives, but alas it was always the Democrats shooting them down. I don't want hear it.


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## Care4all (Nov 15, 2013)

Selling insurance across state lines is a States rights issue....States INSIST on governing the health care/insurance for their own citizens....


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## TemplarKormac (Nov 15, 2013)




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## RandallFlagg (Nov 15, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> MarcATL said:
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Yepwhat was that rather famous quote? Oh yeah "We don't need the damned republicans" as the door shut to the meetings.

The dems have made their beds. Now lie in them until 2014.


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## TemplarKormac (Nov 15, 2013)

RandallFlagg said:


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Beds of nails. Yep, it's gonna hurt.


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## Care4all (Nov 15, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> MarcATL said:
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seriously?  they intentionally shot blanks....


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## RandallFlagg (Nov 15, 2013)

Care4all said:


> TemplarKormac said:
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BS..but let's assume for one moment that what you say is truewouldn't talking it over and over and over and over until they could have reached a workable consensus been preferable to "passing the bill to find out what is in it"!?!?

I would guess that if the idiot Pelosi and the thug Reid had it to do over again - consensus would have been reached..


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## Care4all (Nov 15, 2013)

RandallFlagg said:


> Care4all said:
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For 2 decades Randall....don't you think that was long enough to talk it over and work somethin' out?


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## RandallFlagg (Nov 15, 2013)

Care4all said:


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Horsehockey.

But what if it was? Look at what the Dems have done to themselves in the past monththey will most assuredly lose the House (again) and they WILL lose the Senate.

A man plotting suicide could not have done a better job of blowing his own brains out than what the Dems have (laughingly) done. As a staunch conservative, I saw this very thing happening when this "law" was passed without one republican vote. I have said many times on this very board that "Obarrycare would never see the light of day" and - lo and behold - it won't. Not in it's present form.

Republicans will stand around the Christmas Tree this year (NOT a "holiday tree") and celebrate the very best Christmas that they have ever had. The death of the Democrat rule in Washington.  Hell, I'll hold a glass high for them as well!


Thank you Baby Jesus!!!


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## Care4all (Nov 15, 2013)

RandallFlagg said:


> Care4all said:
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Randall, I don't disagree with you on wishing that BOTH sides could have worked something out in congress....but both houses of Congress have lost all ability to work together and get anything respectable done...honestly, we should just send them all to the corner of the class and take away their pay....

I used to think ''compromise'' was a ''sin'' of sorts, but now I realize that ''compromise'' would really be a ''Miracle''....


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## Politico (Nov 15, 2013)

You're a troll we get it.

*What Is The sane Alternative To ObamaCare*

Fixed it for ya.


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## Amelia (Nov 15, 2013)

JakeStarkey said:


> "I hope it's something much more respectful of both their constituents and the democratic principles of our nation"  *You are disrespectful of the majority that voted twice for Obama, knowing that his signal legislation is ACA*




Americans didn't knowingly vote to be lied to.  Some voted for candidates who promised a health insurance remedy which was going to let them keep their doctors and reduce their family's insurance premiums by $2500 a year; others voted for candidates who promised to do their best to keep the worst of Obama's agenda in check. 

As illustrated in the recent election for Virginia governor, a vote for a pro-ACA candidate is not a vote for the ACA.  Democrats successfully made the theme for these elections to be, "Vote like your vagina depends on it."  Not the economics of responsible health insurance reform.  

If I am disrespectful of the majority, I am disrespectful of how they believed the lies of the Democrats.  I am holding the politicians accountable for a higher standard.  And I continue to hold the media accountable for not researching and reporting on the pertinent facts which would have helped the public make an informed vote and which would have curbed some of the abuses of the people in power.


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## Sallow (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> And who is pushing it?
> 
> Does anyone really believe that the Republicans want to help Americans get good health insurance?



Death.

Study links 45,000 U.S. deaths to lack of insurance | Reuters


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## Sallow (Nov 15, 2013)

Politico said:


> You're a troll we get it.
> 
> *What Is The sane Alternative To ObamaCare*
> 
> Fixed it for ya.



Oh yes..

Listen here..a "sane" advocate for the "alternative".

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3g2a3Gbe3w]Sarah Palin FULL Interview NBC Today Show. Sarah Palin Matt Lauer Interview - YouTube[/ame]

The "plan" starts at 2:06. I call it the "mad lib" plan because it's like the game mad lib where you string together words that you have no idea what the meaning of..are..

"Less tort reform"..

Gotta love it.


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## CrusaderFrank (Nov 15, 2013)

1. Robust Medical Savings accounts

2. Allow insurance to be sold across state lines


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## RDD_1210 (Nov 15, 2013)

They have no alternative because the republican plan is already in place. It's called the Affordable Care Act.


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## Snouter (Nov 15, 2013)

The drooling, homosexual and host of MSNBC Hardball keeps asking this question.  The answer is WTF are you talking about, and why present an issue as an ad hominem?  The free markets don't need some fag from Kenya coming up with bullshit he doesn't even understand that conflicts with the free markets as a solution to problems that do not exist except for welfare folks (Obama's main voting block) and homosexual AIDS patients, according to left wingers!


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## AVG-JOE (Nov 15, 2013)

Amelia said:


> MarcATL said:
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That's not the point, Amelia.  Repeal is only 10% of the issue - At this point in time the ACA can't simply be removed from the books, it needs to be replaced with something and I for one am open to suggestions.

If the republicans have a suggestion to replace it with something simpler that addresses things like preexisting conditions and the complete lack of competition among insurers, I'm all ears.


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## billyerock1991 (Nov 15, 2013)

fend for yourself ... file bankruptcy ...  or die ... the republican healthy care plan


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## BobPlumb (Nov 15, 2013)

RDD_1210 said:


> They have no alternative because the republican plan is already in place. It's called the Affordable Care Act.



The republican plan that received zero republican votes!

Unless a plan involves a massive government program and takeover of the insurance industry, liberals will not recognize it as a plan.  That  is why y'all are saying the republicans have no plan.


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## Geaux4it (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> And who is pushing it?
> 
> Does anyone really believe that the Republicans want to help Americans get good health insurance?



There is no alternative needed. I was happy with the way it was

-Geaux


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> And who is pushing it?
> 
> Does anyone really believe that the Republicans want to help Americans get good health insurance?



There is any nor should their be obamacare is a law that should not have happen.


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## Geaux4it (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> MarcATL said:
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And more obviously, a POTUS who never should of been elected. What an epic failure on all counts

Move over Jimmy Carter.. There's a new loser in town

-Geaux


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## billyerock1991 (Nov 15, 2013)

Geaux4it said:


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and when this ass clown gets canceled he will be whining like the ass hole he is


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## Geaux4it (Nov 15, 2013)

billyerock1991 said:


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Meh.. They didn't cancel me, they raised my rate 76% for $168 a month so I could cover losers, malcontents and miscreants who have hands out the size of dumpsters.

Screw em

-Geaux


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## billyerock1991 (Nov 15, 2013)

RandallFlagg said:


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just like they did in virgina huh... the republicans won the governors office, both senate seats, the LT Governor, and the attorney general, right??? they didn't wow !!!! are you in for a rude awaking


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## editec (Nov 15, 2013)

WelfareQueen said:


> MarcATL said:
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> > And who is pushing it?
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> 1.  Sell insurance across State lines to increase Competition and lower cost.



Excellent idea, and yes it should have been done a long time ago.  Ask your  STATE governments why that never happened.





> 2.  Tort reform.  Most studies save this would save around $250 billion a year.  That could help a lot of uninsured people, couldn't it?



I'd like to see that study.





> 3.  Expand health savings accounts



Who  the hell does that really help?  Not working people that's for damned sure.





> 4.  Allow people with pre-existing conditions to get insurance, make it illegal to deny them insurance, and place them in risk pools that aggressively control costs.



Allow them to get into high risk pools they cannot afford? (which is why that won't help)

The Ins companies do not have to DENY  them insurance.  They'll just jack up the premiums to reflect the additional risk (which is why that won't help)




> Repeal and Replace the Job-Destroying Health Care Law - A Pledge to America - GOP.gov



The GOP doesnot really have "a plan" as is SO evident by the above.

Nothing there truly addresses the REAL problem.

What IS the real problem?

The COST of course!


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## OODA_Loop (Nov 15, 2013)

House conservatives submit bill to replace 'ObamaCare,' amid 'defund' fight | Fox News


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## Edgetho (Nov 15, 2013)

OODA_Loop said:


> House conservatives submit bill to replace 'ObamaCare,' amid 'defund' fight | Fox News



It never fails to amuse me that dimocraps think asking, "Well, what was your alternative?" is a defense of the most inept, corrupt, dishonest, incompetent, stupid, lying bill in American History.

And I'm not kidding.  Never in American History has a major, or even a MINOR, bill been such a clusterfuck, been so incompetently written, so misunderstood and so lied about.

What's our alternative?  Simple, get stupid fucking dimocraps out of Office.

Not kidding, not being acerbic, not being smartass or partisan.....  dimocraps are the dumbest, most dishonest motherfuckers on Earth......


*Pelosi: There Is Nothing In Obamacare That Says Your Insurance Company Should Cancel You*







Wait, what? Then why are millions getting cancellation notices?

Via Weekly Standard:



> One week ago, President Obama apologized for giving millions of Americans false assurances that they could keep their health care plans if they liked them. At a press conference Thursday evening, House Democratic leaders Nancy Pelosi, Steny Hoyer, Xavier Becerra, and Jim Clyburn were asked if they would like to apologize for making the same false claim. All of them declined.
> 
> I dont think theres anything for us to apologize for, said Clyburn.
> 
> ...


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

billyerock1991 said:


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obamacare was your high water mark you're done.


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## billyerock1991 (Nov 15, 2013)

Geaux4it said:


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well then you deserved getting it raise .... making everybody paying for your bankruptcy ... and your a liar nobody gets a policy that's worth anything that's less the 168,dollars a month ... that would mean your policy was $40.32 a month ... yeah like that will work for ya when we start paying for your fat ass cause you filed Bankruptcy ...

that's the republican health care plan ... pay $40.13 month the bill comes to 179.500 dollars and this ass clowns does what????  he files for bankruptcy cause his health care plan just got canceled...


here's a Idea we let thess ass clowns have their $40.13 a month policies with tihis stipulation ... that they can't file any Bankruptcys for any medical cost ... if they lose their coverage they will have to be responsible for all of their medical expenses for the rest of their lives ... that sounds fair


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

billyerock1991 said:


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billy rockhead no more proof needed you're a dumb ass.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

billy the 1991 is that the year you were born?


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## billyerock1991 (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


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an boehner was your high water mark when he shut down the gubmnet ....we no your party is  done cause we just pulled the fork out of ya....


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## Edgetho (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> billy the 1991 is that the year you were born?



It's a palindrome.  Prolly thinks he's cute


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

billyerock1991 said:


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only an idiot would laugh when it's over and done and think it's not.


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## billyerock1991 (Nov 15, 2013)

these Ass clowns think just because a web site doesn't work as well as we thought it should that the ACA is done ... when people start using their health care plans in this next year I can see these ass clowns now ... where did we go wrong ???  why are we losing sooooooooo many seats ??? the whole country went blue ... whats up with that????


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## Rozman (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> And who is pushing it?
> 
> Does anyone really believe that the Republicans want to help Americans get good health insurance?



Does anyone really think Obama acted yesterday because he felt bad that people's policies were cancelled...   

Or was it more to help Democrats that were going to get killed in the elections...


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## billyerock1991 (Nov 15, 2013)

OODA_Loop said:


> House conservatives submit bill to replace 'ObamaCare,' amid 'defund' fight | Fox News



you better look a little deep in that so called plan ... its a first class parting of your wallet ... but you're use to that


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

billyerock1991 said:


> these Ass clowns think just because a web site doesn't work as well as we thought it should that the ACA is done ... when people start using their health care plans in this next year I can see these ass clowns now ... where did we go wrong ???  why are we losing sooooooooo many seats ??? the whole country went blue ... whats up with that????



Well stupid there you go. The web site fuck up is just part of the problem.


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## billyerock1991 (Nov 15, 2013)

Edgetho said:


> OODA_Loop said:
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> > House conservatives submit bill to replace 'ObamaCare,' amid 'defund' fight | Fox News
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*after reading your post, its obvious ... you and stupid are side kicks .... 
* these policy were canceled because they didn't fit the criteria of whats a good policy ... many of you ass clowns have these policies that cover the first 50 dollars and you pay the rest ... that's your health care policy ... they pay 50 dollars and we get to pay for your bankruptcy ... you are dumber then you post ...


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

billyerock1991 said:


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Is this how you view yourself when you look in the mirror?





You're still the same nothing changed PUSSY.


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## DiamondDave (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> And who is pushing it?
> 
> Does anyone really believe that the Republicans want to help Americans get good health insurance?



Where in the constitution does it state that government must take care of the personal upkeep of individual citizens???


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## DiamondDave (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> OKTexas said:
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> > First we are going to raise the voting age for federal elections to 26, if your too juvenile to provide yourself insurance, then voting is out of the question.
> ...



The solution is to get government out of it and YOU take care of the responsibility for looking up, paying for, and dealing with your own health insurance IF YOU SO CHOOSE TO USE IT OVER YOUR OWN SAVINGS


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## billyerock1991 (Nov 15, 2013)

editec said:


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*these ass clowns have never look at anything that they have read that says, "well obama care will do fill in the blank they just assume what their handlers tell them is true*


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## Freewill (Nov 15, 2013)

Some of this actually reflects Obamacare which in the end let us hope that is the result of Obamacare, a health care plan that we can ALL, I repeat ALL, of us can live with.

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/GOPHealthPlan_061709.pdf

The health care reforms outlined are designed to:

1. Make quality health care coverage affordable and accessible for every American,
regardless of pre-existing health conditions.
2. Protect Americans from being forced into a new government-run health care plan
that would: a) eliminate the health care coverage that more than 100 million
Americans currently receive through their job; b) limit your choice of doctors and
medical treatment options; and c) result in the federal government taking control
of your health care.
3. Let Americans who like their health care coverage keep it, and give all Americans
the freedom to choose the health plan that best meets their needs.
4. Ensure that medical decisions are made by patients and their doctors, not
government bureaucrats.
5. Improve Americans lives through effective prevention, wellness, and disease
management programs, while developing new treatments and cures for lifethreatening
diseases.


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## Freewill (Nov 15, 2013)

Now that he fog has lifted is Pelosi happy with her now found understanding of Obamacare.  She is bleating the same words she did before we were able to know what was in the bill so apparently she learned nothing.


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## Edgetho (Nov 15, 2013)

> "The plan, this thing is going to work, it's going to be extremely popular, and it's going to wreak havoc with conservative ideology."  ~  Paul Krugman, July 2013





We don't need an alternative....  Bitch.

All we need to do is let you loose so you can show the world how stupid you are.

You always do.  Always have, always will


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## Edgetho (Nov 15, 2013)

Freewill said:


> Now that he fog has lifted is Pelosi happy with her now found understanding of Obamacare.  She is bleating the same words she did before we were able to know what was in the bill so apparently she learned nothing.



You can't fix stupid


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## billyerock1991 (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


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I see you don't want my terms ... you feel that its your right to get others to pay for your health care debt... we get it ... nothing like a responsible Conservative ... if they aren't racking up hugh debt in the country making us pay for that mess, they're racking up hugh bankruptcy debt too ... got it !!!


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## NoTeaPartyPleez (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> And who is pushing it?
> 
> Does anyone really believe that the Republicans want to help Americans get good health insurance?


*
What Is The Republican Alternative To ObamaCare*


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

billyerock1991 said:


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What in the fuck are you blabbing about? Please stop it we don't need anymore proof, you're a dumb ass.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

NoTeaPartyPleez said:


> MarcATL said:
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## billyerock1991 (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> billy the 1991 is that the year you were born?



no !!! what the hell does the day of my birth have to do with anything ... oh that's right ...  you couldn't refute my post so you show a shiny object ... got ya


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## billyerock1991 (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


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I see you saw what your $40.13 a month gets you !!!!


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## NoTeaPartyPleez (Nov 15, 2013)

oreo said:


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*What about pre-existing conditions?  
*
*What about insurers rescinding or canceling policies based on medical reports of their current policy holders?

What about insurance companies dictating to doctors what they will cover for procedures and prescription drugs?

What about denying claims submitted after care has been administered and delaying payment of claims based on "more information needed"?

What about preventative testing and screening?

Sorry, you still haven't provided an alternative. *


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

billyerock1991 said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > billy the 1991 is that the year you were born?
> ...



Well if you  were born in 1991 I could contribute your stupidity to lack of experience, but if you were not born in 1991 must be something else.


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

billyerock1991 said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > NoTeaPartyPleez said:
> ...



Once again what in the fuck are you blabbing about?


----------



## NoTeaPartyPleez (Nov 15, 2013)

billyerock1991 said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > NoTeaPartyPleez said:
> ...



*
In New Jersey, I applied for Aetna after my spouse died and I declined the ridiculous COBRA of almost $600 a month, based on my medical history of seasonal allergies requiring Allegra (it was Rx then), Asteline and Flonase, topical sprays to reduce nasal congestion and sneezing.

Aetna denied my policy by saying their limit was only 2 allergy prescriptions to be prescribed at a time.  

SO fuck insurance companies.  They are out to fuck you and they will.  

I settled for a $350/month policy with BCBS and after reading through 30 pages of blah-blah, it covers so little it's not worth keeping.

A $40 a month health insurance policy?  What a joke.*


----------



## jasonnfree (Nov 15, 2013)

DiamondDave said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > And who is pushing it?
> ...



Its probably in the same section of the constitution that says that corporations are citizens.
I haven't heard any republicans on board here criticize that silly notion turned into law by the supreme court.


----------



## NoTeaPartyPleez (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> billyerock1991 said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...



*Why don't you either:
A.  Provide an alternative plan
B.  Answer the questions in my post
C.  Or just STFU since you have nothing to offer except pixelated methane.*


----------



## rightwinger (Nov 15, 2013)

Republican alternative to Obamacare?

Wedontcare


----------



## billyerock1991 (Nov 15, 2013)

Rozman said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > And who is pushing it?
> ...



counting your chickens before they're hatch are ya ... just because a web site isn't working like it should doesn't mean OBAMA care is bad ... what's bad is you not looking into it

here are the facts ... 106,000 have sign up for it and paid for their policy ... 975,000 are sign up picked their policy and are waiting for January 1 to pay for their policy...  those are the facts ...you keep believing FOX noise and their misinformation ... cause when you see the following year numbers, right up to the election , you will lose, not only your cookies, but republicans in office ... that's what will happen to loser republicans like you


----------



## NoTeaPartyPleez (Nov 15, 2013)

jasonnfree said:


> DiamondDave said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...


*
With the oh so altruistic title of Citizens United.....*
*
Read the 4th panel inside the Jefferson Memorial.  That will give a clue as to how the founding fathers saw the Constitution being modified to accommodate changes in our society.  

"Personal upkeep"?  WTF is that?  OK, moron, next time you go to your doctor tell him or her that is your personal definition of his/her job.  He's an upkeeper.  *


----------



## MarcATL (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> And who is pushing it?
> 
> Does anyone really believe that the Republicans want to help Americans get good health insurance?


Your Honor, I present to you Exhibit C:



			
				DiamondDave said:
			
		

> Hi, you have received -1060 reputation points from DiamondDave.
> Reputation was given for *this* post.
> 
> Comment:
> ...


Anger by a self-proclaimed Conservative at the mere *QUESTION *of what exactlty is the Republican alternative to ObamaCare.

Note: More of *NOT *answering the question.


----------



## The T (Nov 15, 2013)

Politics: HR 2300: Yes, there is a Republican plan to replace ObamaCare | Best of Cain


----------



## billyerock1991 (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> billyerock1991 said:
> 
> 
> > these Ass clowns think just because a web site doesn't work as well as we thought it should that the ACA is done ... when people start using their health care plans in this next year I can see these ass clowns now ... where did we go wrong ???  why are we losing sooooooooo many seats ??? the whole country went blue ... whats up with that????
> ...



well dumb fuck thats the only problem you have... if you moronic republicans bothered to call in and find out what your policy would cost, your types accepted what your insurance company told you what the new cost is ... because if you called in you would be signing up as fast as your little mits could go


----------



## billyerock1991 (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> billyerock1991 said:
> 
> 
> > Edgetho said:
> ...



*translation=when told the facts they got nuttin'​*


----------



## Seawytch (Nov 15, 2013)

WelfareQueen said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > And who is pushing it?
> ...




The ACA allows the sale of insurance across state lines. Next.





> 2.  Tort reform.  Most studies save this would save around $250 billion a year.  That could help a lot of uninsured people, couldn't it?



Link to these studies? Are you aware that a number of states have strict tort laws? What has it done to the healthcare costs in those states? Nothing you say? No kidding...

Study debunks medical malpractice myth

Ohio's tort reform law hasn't lowered health-care costs

New study: Tort reform has not reduced health care costs in Texas



> 3.  Expand health savings accounts



Expand them by who? Health savings accounts won't work for poor people

Consumer-driven health strategy bound to fail




> 4.  Allow people with pre-existing conditions to get insurance, make it illegal to deny them insurance, and place them in risk pools that aggressively control costs.



ACA already does that. You're welcome.


----------



## billyerock1991 (Nov 15, 2013)

Freewill said:


> Now that he fog has lifted is Pelosi happy with her now found understanding of Obamacare.  She is bleating the same words she did before we were able to know what was in the bill so apparently she learned nothing.



if funny how these ass clowns take phrases out of context and run with it ... yeah i can say the republicans didn't read it, it's obvious every time they speak...  Pelosi was referring to the public not the congress you idiot ... when the public reads it they will see what they get ... morons everywhere we go.... 

i was wondering how long it would take a moron to try and quote Pelosi


----------



## billyerock1991 (Nov 15, 2013)

Edgetho said:


> > "The plan, this thing is going to work, it's going to be extremely popular, and it's going to wreak havoc with conservative ideology."  ~  Paul Krugman, July 2013
> 
> 
> 
> ...



translation= as usual ya got nuttin'


----------



## CrusaderFrank (Nov 15, 2013)

You have to pass our bill to see whats in it.


----------



## billyerock1991 (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> billyerock1991 said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...



speaking of a dumb ass, you pop up ... with out and factual rebuttal ...that's what you ass clowns do best cause we can't fix your kind of stupidity


----------



## billyerock1991 (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> billyerock1991 said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...



like I say when you can't debate ... you insult cause you haven't a leg to stand on ... got it!!!!


----------



## NoTeaPartyPleez (Nov 15, 2013)

OKTexas said:


> Doesn't matter what is said or not here, you will call people liars and push your commie bull shit, and from what I'm seeing people ain't going to play your game, good for them.



*Uh-huh....Lazy ass.*


----------



## NoTeaPartyPleez (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > And who is pushing it?
> ...



*After three years they have come up with nothing.  But when they get fucked over by an insurance company due to catastrophic illness, they will suddenly become liberals.  Trust me.*


----------



## dblack (Nov 15, 2013)

What are the Democrat's proposing as an alternative to ObamaCare?


----------



## billyerock1991 (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> billyerock1991 said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...



we realize you don't comprehend what you have read ... one of the posters said his insurance went up to 168 dollars a month ... are ya with me so far ???? cause I won't explain it to you again ... he said his health care went up 76% ... if you do the math,  simple math, take the reciprocal of 76%, that would be 24%  you multiply It times 168 and you get the grand total of 40.13 ...are ya with me so far are ya grasping it yet ??? this ass clown implied that his insurance was $40.13  a month ... what the hell does a policy for $40.13  a month pay for ???? heres the ANSWER ASS clown ... NOTHING over 50 bucks!!!! SO try and keep up will ,ya!!!!


----------



## billyerock1991 (Nov 15, 2013)

NoTeaPartyPleez said:


> billyerock1991 said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...



I agree you get nothing


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

billyerock1991 said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > billyerock1991 said:
> ...



Really? kids don't know as much as they think they do. It takes experience which I don't think you have. I've said from the beginning obamacare is a failure and guess what I was right. 
Does telling you the truth make you feel as if you have been insulted? GOOD


----------



## billyerock1991 (Nov 15, 2013)

NoTeaPartyPleez said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > billyerock1991 said:
> ...



because everything that ass clown has posted has be shot down in a big way....  so he does what he always does... tires to look bright by insulting you ... so I say insult back ... then they start whining about you being mean to them ...


----------



## birddog (Nov 15, 2013)

Seawytch said:


> WelfareQueen said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...



Our present system could have been greatly improved with just those few changes without revamping the whole system with Obamacare causing great expense and consternation without accomplishing it's stated goals.

Obamacare's forcing people to buy insurance is not fair.(not comparable to car ins by the way)  From what I hear, Obamacare is a poor quality legislation that will not work.  Period!

Obama delaying it previously so he could be reelected sucks also!  He's trying the same thing now o correct his lies!  If Obama had any honesty or class, he would instruct all of the Congress to repeal ACA, and start over!


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

billyerock1991 said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > billyerock1991 said:
> ...



You keep saying YOU (ME) I ask once more what in the fuck are you talking about?


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

NoTeaPartyPleez said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > billyerock1991 said:
> ...




ONE PLAN
stay the fuck out of my life and what I do. Hows that for a plan?

oh and why don't you go fucking pound sand you son of a bitch


----------



## DiamondDave (Nov 15, 2013)

jasonnfree said:


> DiamondDave said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...



Corporations are not citizens.. citizens can vote... but I understand why you deem a corporation LIKE a person... because you can't sue an inanimate object


----------



## billyerock1991 (Nov 15, 2013)

CrusaderFrank said:


> You have to pass our bill to see whats in it.



again out of context Pelosie was referring to the public ...not the congress cause you see it was in the congress for almost 2 years ... so your ass clowns republicans knew what was in it ... to help people get good health care ... a obama Idea so we have to be against it at all cost...


----------



## DiamondDave (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > And who is pushing it?
> ...



Again, idiot, there is no NEED for an alternative BECAUSE IT IS NOT GOVERNMENT'S JOB TO HELP YOU FACILITATE YOUR OWN PERSONAL UPKEEP


----------



## Bern80 (Nov 15, 2013)

Care4all said:


> RandallFlagg said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...



To answer your question Merc I have to ask a clarification of yours; What was the Republicans alternative to what? That we're trying to reform or fix something implies there was a problem. What was/is the problem?

A serious question(s): What was there to fix? Did we at some point determine that medical services are costing more than what the market _should_ bare out? As I see it there are a couple of things that contribute to services in health care costing more than what the market would bare out; 1) government regulations and red tape and the cost of simply complying with them, and 2) lack of education on the part of consumers.

But when the left says we need to 'fix' health care I think what they're really asking is what should society do about the people that need it, but can't pay for it?  Is that government's problem to fix or your own? As one poster previously implied, the Republican plan; can't pay = die. Which sounds harsh, but is that any more harsh the you, who can't pay forcing me via government, to pay for you?


----------



## billyerock1991 (Nov 15, 2013)

dblack said:


> What are the Democrat's proposing as an alternative to ObamaCare?



*Single Payer​*


----------



## dblack (Nov 15, 2013)

billyerock1991 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > What are the Democrat's proposing as an alternative to ObamaCare?
> ...



Why didn't they do that?


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

billyerock1991 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> > You have to pass our bill to see whats in it.
> ...



NO idiot it was not taken out of context.


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

billyerock1991 said:


> NoTeaPartyPleez said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...



Talking out of your ass as usual shit stain.


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

dblack said:


> billyerock1991 said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



because it would have been shot down faster than billy rockheads retorts.


----------



## billyerock1991 (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> billyerock1991 said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...


AHHHHHHHH so its now the poor poorl republican gettin back what he gives out whine ... haw can you say obama care is bad when sofar all you have doe is insult ... we get it ... you haven't a leg to stand on ... so now it's I'm being picked on ... cause I couldn't tell you nothing about Obama care policy that was bad or whats bad in it .. we got ya ??? typical uninformed repub-pie-tard


----------



## LTCArmyRet (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > What is the Republican alternative to lies and fraud and telling people they're too stupid to understand that you're lying to them for their own good?
> ...



Typical dumbocrat tactic of now trying to shift the blame for an absolute failure that Republicans begged and pleaded to delay a year onto someone else.  COWARD!!!


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

Bern80 said:


> Care4all said:
> 
> 
> > RandallFlagg said:
> ...



democrats saw a problem because they needed more money to buy more votes from free loaders, the new batch coming caused by their own failed policy.


----------



## LTCArmyRet (Nov 15, 2013)

billyerock1991 said:


> CrusaderFrank said:
> 
> 
> > You have to pass our bill to see whats in it.
> ...



another Obama sheep speaketh!!!


----------



## Sallow (Nov 15, 2013)

WelfareQueen said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > And who is pushing it?
> ...



1. No idea, really, how that "lowers" cost. In fact, will do just to opposite as bigger companies gobble up smaller ones, which is what generally happens.

2. The courts are the very last bastion of customer protection against fraud and incompetence. Even with that, awards by courts are few and far between.

3. Flexible Health Accounts are another big sham. You don't use them? You lose them.

4. Riiiight. What that will do is create cost prohibitive policies.

Bottom line is health care should not be "for profit".

If it is, "for profit", it needs to be heavily regulated.


----------



## ecinicola (Nov 15, 2013)

marcatl said:


> and who is pushing it?
> 
> Does anyone really believe that the republicans want to help americans get good health insurance?





             does anyone believe the democrats want to help amricans get good health insurance????  Same thing.


----------



## ecinicola (Nov 15, 2013)

I did hear boehner say that obamacare needs to be scrapped, totally..............i go along with that 100%    obamacare was a disaster when they first made the law and its turning out to be just that..........scrap it.


----------



## billyerock1991 (Nov 15, 2013)

birddog said:


> Seawytch said:
> 
> 
> > WelfareQueen said:
> ...



*this is a person who has no Idea what you're saying or what you're getting ... you haven taken any time to see what you would get if you signed up*


----------



## billyerock1991 (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> billyerock1991 said:
> 
> 
> > NoTeaPartyPleez said:
> ...



still got nuttin'we get it ass wipe!!!!


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

obamacare would be great with exception to the mandate and government control


----------



## dblack (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > billyerock1991 said:
> ...



So, do the Democrats have a _politically viable_ alternative to Obamacare?

See, I'm not really interested in a Republican alternative. I don't really think they'd do any better and I'm not about to waste a vote on a Republican to find out. But there's no denying the Democrats fucked us with ACA.


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

billyerock1991 said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > billyerock1991 said:
> ...



you've had nothing from the beginning of this thread up until now 
True story


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

dblack said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



You are correct. The Republicans would fail just as the democrats have.


----------



## Sallow (Nov 15, 2013)

Rozman said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > And who is pushing it?
> ...



Neither.

Insurance companies tried to pull a fast one..and got bit.

Hopefully they get the message.


----------



## RKMBrown (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> What Is The Republican Alternative To ObamaCare? And who is pushing it?
> 
> Does anyone really believe that the Republicans want to help Americans get good health insurance?



Just as Expanded 401k type programs are demonstratively the answer to our shitty inefficient SS system, expanded HSAs are the answer to our shitty government regulated insurance system.  If you don't understand HSAs you need to become educated regarding them. You'll note the democrat plan has been to focus on destroying HSAs.

Free Markets work really well.  So well America became the most powerful, economically rich nation on earth with the best health care.  Then the democants went about destroying it with government regulations.

Socialist government managed markets are not a solution to any market issue, they merely exacerbate market issues by redistributing peter's money to paul.


----------



## LTCArmyRet (Nov 15, 2013)

billyerock1991 said:


> birddog said:
> 
> 
> > Seawytch said:
> ...



neither do you.  Just like palosi, we have to pass it to see what's in it.  I knew the rates would go up.  An insurance company is in business because it earns a profit.  If you require that they take on higher risk customers, i.e. have to pay out more claims, then it only follows common sense logic that rates will go up to maintain profit margins required and needed to keep stock holders from selling.  Simple common sense, but I guess that a rare thing with you and the dumbocrats that rammed this down Americas throats.


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

Sallow said:


> Rozman said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...



obama fail 3.0


----------



## rightwinger (Nov 15, 2013)

ecinicola said:


> I did hear boehner say that obamacare needs to be scrapped, totally..............i go along with that 100%    obamacare was a disaster when they first made the law and its turning out to be just that..........scrap it.



Yea Obamacare is a bunch of shit. Anyone could put out a better plan

But people with pre-existing conditions need coverage. Small businesses and the self employed need coverage. People in their early twenties need coverage. People who have exceeded their lifetime cap still need insurance

So since health insurance is such an easy thing to do. Why don't Republicans give us their alternative plan that does all this and a timeline for when they will implement it?

Makes sense doesn't it?


----------



## billyerock1991 (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Bern80 said:
> 
> 
> > Care4all said:
> ...


talk about babbling you are the champion babbler... when you got nuttin you say nuttin' just like you did here babble on babbler !!!

BWA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

cause they needed votes...  that's funny ... here a idea ...go and read the god damn bill, moron ... then try to keep up with us .. casue pal you have no idea what you're talking about  ...


----------



## Sallow (Nov 15, 2013)

dblack said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



President Obama suffered from the same "delusion" that President Clinton suffered from.

He thought conservatives were bargaining from good faith.

Hopefully the lesson is learned by the next Democratic President.


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

billyerock1991 said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > Bern80 said:
> ...


Who pushed for the mandate? without the mandate obamacare could not be funded.
So do us a favor dumb ass shut the fuck up.


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

Sallow said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...



obama fail 3.0


----------



## dblack (Nov 15, 2013)

Sallow said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...



i just can't swallow that. Obama and the Democrats could have pushed through anything the wanted. Sadly, what they wanted was to indulge their corporatist instincts and hand out favors to their backers. If you're blaming 'conservatives' for ACA, you must be talking about blue-dog Democrats. Republicans had nothing to do with it.


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

rightwinger said:


> ecinicola said:
> 
> 
> > I did hear boehner say that obamacare needs to be scrapped, totally..............i go along with that 100%    obamacare was a disaster when they first made the law and its turning out to be just that..........scrap it.
> ...



ONE plan stay the FUCK OUT OF MY LIFE.


----------



## rightwinger (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > ecinicola said:
> ...



Yea...I heard of that plan

Let em die


----------



## RKMBrown (Nov 15, 2013)

Sallow said:


> Rozman said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...


Shallow you do know you are the town duntz with this act right?  Even Obama and Bill disagree with you.

OCA banned Insurance companies from offering low premium high deductible insurance plans.  The result is Insurance companies were forced to cancel low premium high deductible insurance plans.  Obama lied, and now he admits he lied.  You can't grandfather a low premium high deductible hsa plan to a high premium low deductible non hsa plan.  duh...

OCA's plan / promise was to redistribute more money from healthy people to sick people.  There was never an intention to let "those" people remain on less expensive insurance.  Just as SS/Medicare is a plan to bilk the young and healthy to fund the retirement of the elderly, OCA is a plan to bilk the healthy to fund the health care of the un-healthy.


----------



## billyerock1991 (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> obamacare would be great with exception to the mandate and government control



moron the government doesn't control the policy ...the government makes laws that the that the insurance companies have to follow ...the government is only the way to sign up for a policy... nothing more ...what the government did was make laws so that the insures are required to have to make the health care work ...  everybody has to be in it, not like free loaders like you who file bankruptcy every time at the blink of a eye when they rack up ah huge debt ...


----------



## dblack (Nov 15, 2013)

rightwinger said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



Not really. See, that's the conceit of your position. Believe it or not, you can help people out without bullying them.


----------



## Jackson (Nov 15, 2013)

ecinicola said:


> I did hear boehner say that obamacare needs to be scrapped, totally..............i go along with that 100%    obamacare was a disaster when they first made the law and its turning out to be just that..........scrap it.



Do you know what that would entail?  

Companies would have to go back and get insurance companies to reopen their insurance group policies (man hours with no profit)

Insurance companies would have to issue all of those policies they cancelled (Man hours no profit)

Companies would have to restructure the employee work schedules and fire workers due to the cancelling of the 30 hour week

people would have to rearrange their work schedules, day care services due to quitting part time work, going back to full time work

haven't even covered all of the trickling down effects.


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

billyerock1991 said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > obamacare would be great with exception to the mandate and government control
> ...



This post has to be one of them most uninformed replies ever in this forum.
obamacare is law of the land
obamacare is mandated by that law
WHO IN THE FUCK EVER GAVE YOU YOUR TALKING POINTS NEEDS TO BE REEDUCATED.


----------



## rightwinger (Nov 15, 2013)

dblack said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...



I believe that

So tell us Republicans. Before we throw out Obamacare. How are you going to help these people and how long will it take?

OK America.......instead of Obamacare, we are going to offer this?

What is it Republicans?


----------



## RKMBrown (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> billyerock1991 said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...



FYI: The mandate is only one of a dozen taxes that are funding OCA. The biggest tax is the refusal to allow insurance companies to offer high deductible insurance, thus forcing the healthy to buy health insurance plans designed for sick people who have to spend a ton of money each year on health care anyway, thus are willing to pay high premiums to have lower deductibles.


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

rightwinger said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...



elitist think they know what is best for people


----------



## Sallow (Nov 15, 2013)

dblack said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...


You 'can't' but that's what happened.

Originally Obama and the democrats were going with single payer. That changed to the government option and then it went to the individual mandate, and that was mainly because Republicans were in a tizzy about the whole thing. President Obama WANTED bi-partisan support. Why? I dunno. George W. Bush didn't have this problem. Neither did Reagan until later in his Presidency when he got into trouble. The Health Care plan went  to a bipartisan committee until the Republicans started larding it with poison pills that would have made it impossible to pass..and they started using it as a vehicle to outlaw abortion. THAT's when the nonsense was stopped.

So yeah..it was a Conservative thing..it was there plan..and once they failed to kill it in committee they began to do everything to stop it.


----------



## RKMBrown (Nov 15, 2013)

rightwinger said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


We already had Medicare for the Elderly, Chips for the kids, and Medicaid for the poor you dumb ass.  We did not need another health care solution for the poor.

HSA plans are the best answer for the rest of Americans, but we should not force anyone to buy insurance or create an HSA.  We should have liberty.


----------



## Sunshine (Nov 15, 2013)

rightwinger said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...




As a nurse, I have supported coverage for the working poor for years.  Rewriting Medicaid, charging a small premium, and offering it to the working poor would have left company policies in effect, and covered everyone. A lot of people take high deductible plans for the low premiums and open an HSA for routine matters.  These could also have stayed in effect.  With all the waste in the VA, and the fraud in Medicare and Medicaid, there should have been ample funds to cover the working poor without kicking the rest of the nation in the financial gut.  But then you are nothing but a welfare queen and you don't have the brains to support yourself, let alone think anything like that through.


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## Luddly Neddite (Nov 15, 2013)

> What Is The Republican Alternative To ObamaCare



Eat Shit And Die

No, I'm not being sarcastic. Just read anything Rs have said or written and that describes it. For example, the incredible pile of dog doo that was just posted. 

I've also noticed that LyinRyan's "plan" has quietly disappeared.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...


What they needed was the mandate to control.


----------



## NYcarbineer (Nov 15, 2013)

The Republican plan is as follows:

1.  Take the subsidized affordable insurance - acquired now and in the future through the exchanges - away from the millions of Americans who have taken or otherwise will have eventually taken advantage of it.

2.  Kick tens of thousands of young people off their parents' insurance coverage.

3.  kick hundreds of thousands of Americans off the coverage in the expanded Medicaid.

4.  further remove or reduce the benefits of hundreds of thousands of Americans on pre-ACA Medicaid before the expansion - based on the GOP's proposed budget plans that include massive cuts in Medicaid.

5.  Cancel the Medicare insurance for tens of millions of Americans in the near future - based on the GOP's proposed plans to end Medicare.

that is partial list, but I think that's enough.


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## Luddly Neddite (Nov 15, 2013)

rightwinger  





> I believe that
> 
> So tell us Republicans. Before we throw out Obamacare. How are you going to help these people and how long will it take?
> 
> ...



Republicans are against "helping people". If you're not a fetus, you're on your own and at the (non-existent) mercy of big corporations.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

NYcarbineer said:


> The Republican plan is as follows:
> 
> 1.  Take the subsidized affordable insurance - acquired now and in the future through the exchanges - away from the millions of Americans who will eventually take advantage of it.
> 
> ...



What part of no Republican plan is in the works don't you get? It would also be treated just like obamacare is being done.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

Luddly Neddite said:


> rightwinger
> 
> 
> 
> ...



elitist think they know what is best for people


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## Luddly Neddite (Nov 15, 2013)

NYcarbineer said:


> The Republican plan is as follows:
> 
> 1.  Take the subsidized affordable insurance - acquired now and in the future through the exchanges - away from the millions of Americans who have taken or otherwise will have eventually taken advantage of it.
> 
> ...



In order to finish screwing over the average citizen, they would also quietly sneak in tort reform. 

Amazingly, rw's are in favor of tort reform.


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## NYcarbineer (Nov 15, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



No one is going to force you to buy health insurance.  You can  give up the tax break and go without any insurance if you want to.


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## Contumacious (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> And who is pushing it?
> 
> Does anyone really believe that the Republicans want to help Americans get good health insurance?



The alternative to Obama Hellcare is Free Market healthcare.

 You are right no one is pushing it because it requires NO GOVERNMENT INVOLVEMENT hence not politically correct.

.


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## NYcarbineer (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> > The Republican plan is as follows:
> ...



The above is based on two real plans.

1.  The plan to repeal Obamacare.  That, in fact, is more than just a plan - the GOP House has tried to make it law several dozen times.

2.  The GOP budget plans, generally called the 'Ryan budget' all of the campaign last year, that the GOP ran on in the presidential race.

Those are real, concrete, definitive 'plans' that the GOP has put forth,  and thus presumably are accurate representations of the GOP healthcare agenda.


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## Sunshine (Nov 15, 2013)

Luddly Neddite said:


> > What Is The Republican Alternative To ObamaCare
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Sunshine said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...




'scuse me~!


----------



## dblack (Nov 15, 2013)

Sallow said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Sallow said:
> ...



Republicans didn't force Democrats to vote for ACA. 

I don't really care to defend Republicans here, and that's not my point. If the tables were turned, I suspect they'd have done approximately the same thing the Democrats did. My point is that there just isn't any way a sane person can cling to the fantasy that Democrats are defenders of the public interest. They're either as corrupt and power hungry as Republicans, or they are gullible idiots. Or both.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

Luddly Neddite said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> > The Republican plan is as follows:
> ...



OH so you support frivolous lawsuits? Doesn't that also make medical cost higher?


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## BobPlumb (Nov 15, 2013)

billyerock1991 said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > billyerock1991 said:
> ...



You suck at math.  95.45 + 0.76 X 95.45 = 167.99.


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## Sunshine (Nov 15, 2013)

Luddly Neddite said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> > The Republican plan is as follows:
> ...



I have never been in favor of tort reform and I am a clinician.  I have posted that many times.  If you didn't see it, you weren't looking.


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## dblack (Nov 15, 2013)

Contumacious said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > And who is pushing it?
> ...



No, no, no!

Every solution to our problems as a society must involve an ambitious government PLAN!!! Don't you get that?


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## Sunshine (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> > NYcarbineer said:
> ...



What makes malpractice higher is doctors who protect other doctors who malpractice.  They won't get the bad ones out.  Nurses are taught to rat one another out from day one.  But doctors have their 'brotherhood of silence.'  Look it up in  your Funk and Wagnals.


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## NYcarbineer (Nov 15, 2013)

Contumacious said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > And who is pushing it?
> ...



Free market healthcare would be like any other free market - 

each person or family would buy what they could afford, at market prices, and those who couldn't afford the market prices

would mostly go without.


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## dblack (Nov 15, 2013)

NYcarbineer said:


> Contumacious said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...



Yep. And people would just sit around on their hands and die.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

NYcarbineer said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > NYcarbineer said:
> ...



ONE more time for the peanut gallery
There is non nor should their be any REPUBLICAN plan to mandate healthcare coverage.
DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS?>
If their was such a plan it would be treated just as obamacare is being treated.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

Sunshine said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > Luddly Neddite said:
> ...



TORT reform is needed.


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## Katzndogz (Nov 15, 2013)

Sunshine said:


> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> > NYcarbineer said:
> ...



I was a lawyer for 35 years, medical malpractice claims are a form of legalized financial rape.  We desperately need tort reform.


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## TooTall (Nov 15, 2013)

billyerock1991 said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > obamacare would be great with exception to the mandate and government control
> ...



How often do you think a person can file for bankruptcy?


----------



## Katzndogz (Nov 15, 2013)

NYcarbineer said:


> Contumacious said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...



They would have to go to a private charity.

My son's sister in law got cancer.   She had no insurance and went to the City of Hope.   She got her surgery and her treatment and is now cancer free.


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## Katzndogz (Nov 15, 2013)

TooTall said:


> billyerock1991 said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...



Every seven years.

Most bankruptcies are the result of credit cards not medical bill.


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## Contumacious (Nov 15, 2013)

dblack said:


> Contumacious said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...



The states have been regulating healthcare since the 1840's in order to maximize the profits of the *American Medical Association. *

The federal government instituted medicaid/medicare in the mid 1960's . So the state regulation and medicaid/medicare have made healthcare unaffordable . So government involvement would be necessary to REMOVE those impediments.

.


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## MarcATL (Nov 15, 2013)

oreo said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > And who is pushing it?
> ...


Your Honor, I present to you Exhibit C:

Another Republican response trotting out the same old tired, nonsensical rhetoric they've been spewing for years that have nothing to do with addressing the issue.

1. How does an insurance company in Kentucky help a person in Idaho?

2. How will those small businesses group together? What *LAW *is stopping them from doing that NOW? Why haven't they done it as yet?

3. Tort Reform is equivalent to a drop in the bucket. It does absolutely NOTHING to help Americans who *CANNOT *afford insurance get health coverage.

As you can see Your Honor, the third (3rd) Republican response is to *NOT *offer a solution to insuring The American People.


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## Contumacious (Nov 15, 2013)

NYcarbineer said:


> Contumacious said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...



*HUH?*

I didn't know there were more than one........explain please.

.


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## dblack (Nov 15, 2013)

Contumacious said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Contumacious said:
> ...



Remove??? That does not compute.

Somalia!!!!!!


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## TooTall (Nov 15, 2013)

NYcarbineer said:


> Contumacious said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...



That all depends on what you mean by not afford health insurance.  If the family income is too low, Medicaid is the answer.  
If the house payment, car payment, cell phone, Dish network, credit card payments etc., etc. are the reasons they can't afford it that comes down to a matter of priorities.


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## NoTeaPartyPleez (Nov 15, 2013)

NYcarbineer said:


> Contumacious said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...


*
Exactly.  They think it's like shopping for a car or a house.  They are just that stupid. 
*


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## g5000 (Nov 15, 2013)

If you ask the average person what the GOP alternative to ObamaCare is, you will get nothing but shrugs.

The only GOP plan that is universally known is "Repeal ObamaCare".  But if you ask, "And then what?" you will get shrugs.

No one wants to go back to the pre-ObamaCare days.  Everyone but the perpetually mentally handicapped knows the "status quo" was failing miserably, getting worse every year.

There is never any going back once a radical change has been enacted.  For instance, the GOP once opposed Medicare but did not hesistate to use the changes to Medicare that ObamaCare was going to do as a scare tactic to get senior votes.  We actually saw Republicans acting as defenders of Medicare Advantage in their blind opposition to ObamaCare.

What the Republican Party is failing to understand is that even though a majority of people might believe ObamaCare is a mess, they do not want to go *backward*.  The Republican Party is dancing in the echo chamber over the first half of that equation.  They chortle and point and pee their pants laughing over the unpopularity of ObamaCare, completely failing to see their own serious shortcomings.

The American people want to move *forward*.  This is what the GOP never seems to get through their thick skulls.

If the GOP does not step up and very publicly put a plan on the table, then the only universally known fix proposed for ObamaCare that will be on the table is single payer healthcare.

The GOP is being dragged under by cowards who are afraid to put up a plan.  Cowards who know that when you put something on the table, it gets attacked. 

Any jackass can attack the other guy's plan.  The GOP is very good at attacking and whining and moaning and bitching.   That is the strategy of cowards.


It takes guts and brains and leadership to very publicly put a superior idea on the table and defend it.   Too bad the GOP has none of these traits any more.


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## NoTeaPartyPleez (Nov 15, 2013)

TooTall said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> > Contumacious said:
> ...



*You've obviously never experienced a catastrophic health problem.  In today's world you can rack up a $100,000 medical bill for cancer in weeks, literally weeks. 

And then if you continue with chemo and future surgeries, lab tests, PET scans, MRIs, doctor's visits and OTC meds, physical therapy, physician consultations, your bill in 6 months could be north of $400,000.
A three-year battle with cancer costs around $1,000,000 easily.  

It doesn't matter then if your household expenses are $1000 a month or $10,000 a month.  *


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## dblack (Nov 15, 2013)

NoTeaPartyPleez said:


> TooTall said:
> 
> 
> > NYcarbineer said:
> ...



Those are bold words.


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## NoTeaPartyPleez (Nov 15, 2013)

g5000 said:


> If you ask the average person what the GOP alternative to ObamaCare is, you will get nothing but shrugs.
> 
> The only GOP plan that is universally known is "Repeal ObamaCare".  But if you ask, "And then what?" you will get shrugs.  .....


*
Then if you lean in real close and look into their eyes there's a lot of empty space behind them and some light shining through from their ears.  *


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## paulitician (Nov 15, 2013)

Anything but this awful Obamacare Obomination. Anything.


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## Contumacious (Nov 15, 2013)

TooTall said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> > Contumacious said:
> ...




Medicaid is NOT the answer. It increases health care costs for those who are not within its umbrella.

.


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## DiamondDave (Nov 15, 2013)

NoTeaPartyPleez said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> > Contumacious said:
> ...



Because it is like any other good or service.. cars, FOOD, housing, dental care, toys, or whatever...

YOU and your fucking ilk just think it is a right...


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## g5000 (Nov 15, 2013)

paulitician said:


> Anything but this awful Obamacare Obomination. Anything.



Due to gross negligence by way of ignoring the building American healthcare debacle for decades, we have now arrived at the point where there are only two viable options.  Either get government completely out of the healthcare business, or else go all in with single payer healthcare.

Either would be preferable to this insufferable abomination that is ObamaCare.


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## g5000 (Nov 15, 2013)

NoTeaPartyPleez said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> > Contumacious said:
> ...



It is exactly like shopping for home, auto, or life insurance.

Perhaps a model like Singapore's would work here.


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## NoTeaPartyPleez (Nov 15, 2013)

dblack said:


> NoTeaPartyPleez said:
> 
> 
> > TooTall said:
> ...



*Not only that, but true.  The total bill for my spouse's 3.5 year cancer battle was $1,300,000.00.  That included all billing from one internist, one oncologist, the hospital here in town and Sloan Kettering in NYC.

Three major surgeries, and two years of chemotherapy.  Endless doctor's visits, MRIs, PET scans, CAT scans, lab, lab, lab. 

Oncologists/cancer centers take a $31.00/dose 40-year-old chemo drug like Taxol (Paclitaxel) and charge $3000 to stick it in your arm.  That's just ONE drug used.

But fuck Obamacare or anybody else who tries to correct that little problem.

*


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## dblack (Nov 15, 2013)

NoTeaPartyPleez said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > NoTeaPartyPleez said:
> ...



Can you make the font bigger?


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## rightwinger (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> > The Republican plan is as follows:
> ...



We got that

That is why the Republicans screams to kill Obamacare ring so shallow


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## NoTeaPartyPleez (Nov 15, 2013)

g5000 said:


> NoTeaPartyPleez said:
> 
> 
> > NYcarbineer said:
> ...






"""Singapore has a non-modified *universal healthcare system where the government ensures affordability of healthcare within the public health system*, largely through a system of compulsory savings, subsidies and price controls. Singapore's system uses a combination of compulsory savings from payroll deductions to provide subsidies within a nationalized health insurance plan known as Medisave. Within Medisave, each citizen accumulates funds that are individually tracked, and such funds can be pooled within and across an entire extended family. The vast majority of Singapore citizens have substantial savings in this scheme. One of three levels of subsidy is chosen by the patient at the time of the healthcare episode.""""

Healthcare in Singapore - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Contumacious (Nov 15, 2013)

dblack said:


> Contumacious said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



That is exactly how it works fascism>socialism>Somalia - No one wants to fool around with the carcass.

.


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## NoTeaPartyPleez (Nov 15, 2013)

dblack said:


> NoTeaPartyPleez said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



Sure.  Does your insurance policy cover eye exams?


----------



## paulitician (Nov 15, 2013)

Wait till the Dictator's IRS Henchmen start hunting those evil-doers down who don't sign up. By now, even his most loyal Bots should be rethinking their support for this. And i hate to say i told ya so, but...I said it was an Un-American disgrace right from the start. It's time for the Democrats to do what's best for the Country, not the Party. Repeal this nightmare as soon as possible.


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## RKMBrown (Nov 15, 2013)

Sunshine said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



As much as I hate to, I have to agree with Sunshine on this one.


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

rightwinger said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > NYcarbineer said:
> ...



Why don't you support staying out of peoples lives? you can't because you are an elitist.


----------



## Contumacious (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...



That is true.

*But unfortunately at one time some conservative groups were talking about mandating health care coverage.*

.

.


----------



## g5000 (Nov 15, 2013)

Employer-sponsored health insurance should go away.   Completely.  It is a huge cause of rising healthcare costs.

When you buy insurance, you should be able to pick up the phone and call any company in the country and select the options you want or do not want to pay for.  The ability of an American to choose between a universe of auto insurance companies is what gives the consumer bargaining leverage.  We need that same leverage with our health insurance.  When you are getting insurance through your employer, your leverage is limited to the number of employees in the company, which means small companies have no leverage at all, especially since they are prevented from buying from any company in the country.

In turn, insurance companies cannot cross regional lines, and thus their leverage is limited by their pool of customers, which gives them limited leverage with a healthcare provider network.

This is stupid in the extreme.  But that is the way the government wrote the rules.  The government is in the healthcare business and has tied the hands of its competitors in the private sector.  Is it really a mystery why things are so fucked up?

Apparently this is all one big mystery to some people.

Untie these idiotic knots.


There should be a high risk pool for people with catastrophic illness, subsidized by the federal government.

The Medicare eligibility age should be raised to at least 70, and indexed to 9 percent of the population going forward.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

NoTeaPartyPleez said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > NoTeaPartyPleez said:
> ...



It covers what he wants it to cover, if it didn't he would get something else.


----------



## RKMBrown (Nov 15, 2013)

NYcarbineer said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


ROFL is that what the 2.5% new tax is for people that don't buy insurance, a tax break for people who do? ROFL what an idiot you are.


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## NoTeaPartyPleez (Nov 15, 2013)

paulitician said:


> Wait till the Dictator's IRS Henchmen start hunting those evil-doers down who don't sign up. By now, even his most loyal Bots should be rethinking their support for this. And i hate to say i told ya so, but...I said it was an Un-American disgrace right from the start. It's time for the Democrats to do what's best for the Country, not the Party. Repeal this nightmare as soon as possible.



*Ron Paul's position in the last Republican debate was that an uninsured sick person who can't afford his own care should try to get a church to help him.  That's not a fucking health care policy, that's evil.  Congratulations.*


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## Edgetho (Nov 15, 2013)

NoTeaPartyPleez said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > NoTeaPartyPleez said:
> ...



Know what, bitch?  FUCK YOU

Is your 'spouse' alive?  I assume so.  

What do you think would happen under obamacare?  You ARE aware of the so-called "death panels' aren't you?

Know how those work?  They attach a price, a cost-based derivative to a person's usefulness in an algorithm with an age component that only they know how it works and they apply it to a person's health care costs.

If it don't fit....  You die.

While you're thinking about that........

Did your 'spouse' die?

1.3 Million Dollars?  Those E-VUL Insurance Companies spent $1,300,000 dollars to save your 'spouse' and you're bitching?

FUCK YOU!!

What a fucking douche.

And Bristol Myers didn't bring Taxol to market until 1993.  

What a fucking douchebag you are.  Honest to God


----------



## NoTeaPartyPleez (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> NoTeaPartyPleez said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



*You can only get what you can afford.  Sort of like your nitwit peers on here think, like shopping for a car.  *


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

Contumacious said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > NYcarbineer said:
> ...


Newt's just as much an elitist as you are. try again.


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## Redfish (Nov 15, 2013)

This thread is based on a false premise----------that there was a healthcare crisis in the USA that mandated revising the entire medical system.

before ACA, no one in the USA was being denied medical care---NO ONE!  

Not having insurance did not keep anyone from being treated.   Yes, free treatment was more of a hassle than if you paid for it----BFD, you were getting it FREE.

the two good provisions in ACA could have been passed in two paragraph bill
1. insurance companies must take people with pre-existing conditions
2. no lifetime maximum payments

The ACA law was not about fixing healthcare,  it was a socialist move to nationalize medicine and allow the govt to take over 1/6 of the economy.   Do you dem/libs really want a marginally intelligent GS9 making your medical decisions for you?   

Do you really want your doctors office to look like the DMV?

Wake up america,  this is a terrible piece of legislation.


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## RKMBrown (Nov 15, 2013)

NYcarbineer said:


> Contumacious said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...


Yeah cause we have never had "free" clinics. And we have never had charity in this country.  And we don't have medicaid or chips for the poor.  And we don't have medicare for the elderly. 

Where do you libtits get this clap trap from?


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## dblack (Nov 15, 2013)

NoTeaPartyPleez said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > NoTeaPartyPleez said:
> ...



So, is your position that everyone should get what they can't afford? Except, of course, in bold font.


----------



## MarcATL (Nov 15, 2013)

dblack said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > And who is pushing it?
> ...


Your Honor...

*Exhibit D:* Avoidance. *NOT *addressing the question, aka *NO *solution.


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## RKMBrown (Nov 15, 2013)

Redfish said:


> This thread is based on a false premise----------that there was a healthcare crisis in the USA that mandated revising the entire medical system.
> 
> before ACA, no one in the USA was being denied medical care---NO ONE!
> 
> ...



I don't think it's a good idea to FORCE an insurance company to add people with pre-existing conditions to the same health plan as people without pre-existing conditions.  It's a matter of risk pools and unfair pricing.  That's like letting people with totaled cars buy car insurance and forcing the insurance company to buy the guy a new car.  It's nutz. 

But hey if an insurance company wants to create a plan for people with already huge medical costs, so those people can share their costs, whatever, it's a free country isn't it?


----------



## Sarah G (Nov 15, 2013)

Their alternative?  Gut it and then go back to big insurance junk policies.


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## Edgetho (Nov 15, 2013)

And speaking of Taxol, you whiny little bitch...  Didja know that the UK's great and wonderful, single-payer NHS REFUSED to pay the price for Taxol to treat women with ovarian cancer?

Did you know that?  Of course you didn't.

It took a full court press from the media and Months of pressure to get the UK's National Health Service to pay for a drug (Taxol) that would save lives -- In 2000.

Then, the NHS refused to pay for it because it was too expensive and that set them back a few more years.  While women died.  Horribly.  Now, you can get the treatment but you have to jump through a lot of hoops in the UK.

Here?  They just use it.  No questions asked.

You're a fucking douche.


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## RKMBrown (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...



Exhibit A:  OP ignoring hundreds of solutions provided to his question, and instead focusing in on the non solutions.


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## dblack (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...



Exhibit, schmibit.

The primary failing of ACA is the assumption that the key to dealing with health care costs is _more_ insurance. Insurance is the problem, not the solution.


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## NoTeaPartyPleez (Nov 15, 2013)

Edgetho said:


> NoTeaPartyPleez said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



*Excuse me?*
*
"Paclitaxel is a mitotic inhibitor used in cancer chemotherapy. It was discovered in a US National Cancer Institute program at the Research Triangle Institute in 1967 ....."
http://dtp.nci.nih.gov/timeline/flash/success_stories/S2_taxol.htm*

*Taxol has been used for cancer treatments since at least 1976 because my mother was on it for ovarian cancer at MD Anderson in Houston.  

BMS adopted it for other types of cancers years later.   Any time a specific drug company wants to take an existing drug and license it for a new, specific diagnosis, they have to get approval through the FDA.

No, my spouse died in 2009 when the cancer recurred.

Feel better now?

Frankly, of all the scared white people on here, you're the most frightened I've ever seen.*


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

NoTeaPartyPleez said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > NoTeaPartyPleez said:
> ...



oh, so the rising cost of insurance due to obamacare is affordable?


----------



## Edgetho (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...



We offered to work with you people but you refused.  

Afterall, you're all just so fucking smart.  Who needs Republicans?  

We had all kinds of ideas.  We introduced five Health Care (it's Health Insurance) bills in the 2000's alone.  I've posted the links often enough; but you don't care.

You aren't listening.  Because, you know, you're just so smart n' all.

Check it yourself, you'll find thousands of articles on Republican alternatives.

If you're not too smart to read them


----------



## Redfish (Nov 15, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Redfish said:
> 
> 
> > This thread is based on a false premise----------that there was a healthcare crisis in the USA that mandated revising the entire medical system.
> ...



Would you put people with pre-existing conditions on medicaid?   Or just let them die?  I think putting them in the insurance risk pool is a better solution.


----------



## MarcATL (Nov 15, 2013)

Your Honor, I present to you *Exhibit D.1*:



tinydancer said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > And who is pushing it?
> ...


The subject doesn't answer the question, instead you see the subject engaging in hypothesis by speculating what and what not the ACA will and won't do.

Your Honor, at this time I would like to direct your attention to *Exhibit D.2*...

Here you find the subject scrambling up some nonsensical PDF from the RW website that amounts to a list of Rightwing talking points.



tinydancer said:


> And Republican alternatives are out there. I found this in two seconds.
> 
> http://camp.house.gov/uploadedfiles/summary_of_republican_alternative_health_care_plan.pdf


Your Honor, the subject has *NOT *provided a solution for affordable healthcare to the American citizens in dire need of it.


----------



## LTCArmyRet (Nov 15, 2013)

billyerock1991 said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > obamacare would be great with exception to the mandate and government control
> ...



wow, new level of entitlement induced idiocy


----------



## Bern80 (Nov 15, 2013)

billyerock1991 said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > Bern80 said:
> ...



Yeah as if promising people things as a means of getting elected is a new thing. I suggest YOU read the bill. So you can see all the new taxes on the horizon we haven't even touched on. So you understand what the mandated communit rating formula does to premium rates.

I refer back to my original question. What problem really needs solving?


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

Redfish said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Redfish said:
> ...



Why not allow them on medicare? if obamacare was all about helping people who had pre-existing conditions?


----------



## dblack (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Redfish said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



Because helping people was never the point. At best it was an afterthought to the primary goal of controlling them.


----------



## NoTeaPartyPleez (Nov 15, 2013)

Edgetho said:


> And speaking of Taxol, you whiny little bitch...  Didja know that the UK's great and wonderful, single-payer NHS REFUSED to pay the price for Taxol to treat women with ovarian cancer?
> 
> Did you know that?  Of course you didn't.
> 
> ...



*And you're quite upset because I've scared you.  And you should be scared.  Insurance companies want you to die quickly when you have a stage-4 cancer.  

My spouse just didn't die quick enough and that was the total bill:  $1,300,000.00

So your story of the NHS is from 13 years ago.  Guess what, douchebag?  Insurance companies here deny the use of many kinds of cancer drugs as "experimental" so they don't have to pay for them.  Happens all the time.    *


----------



## Redfish (Nov 15, 2013)

Redfish said:


> This thread is based on a false premise----------that there was a healthcare crisis in the USA that mandated revising the entire medical system.
> 
> before ACA, no one in the USA was being denied medical care---NO ONE!
> 
> ...



I repeat,   there was no healthcare crisis in the USA before ACA.   The ACA law is not about healthcare or insurance.  It is about nationalizing medicine.


----------



## MarcATL (Nov 15, 2013)

asterism said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > And who is pushing it?
> ...


Your Honor...

*Exhibit E:* The Republican subject responds not by answering the question, telling us what is the Republican response, but what the subject does instead is engage in politricks, throwing up stats as to how many lost their junk insurance plants and how many have thus far been able to sign-up for insurance under the ACA.

For the record, I state that the subject has *NOT*, I repeat has *NOT *answered the question, therefore offering NO solution for affordable healthcare for the millions of American citizens in dire need of it.


----------



## Edgetho (Nov 15, 2013)

NoTeaPartyPleez said:


> Edgetho said:
> 
> 
> > NoTeaPartyPleez said:
> ...



douchebag liar......  It may have been 'discovered' but it wasn't brought to Market until 1992.  By Bristol Myers and the National Cancer Institute.

The Great Taxol Giveaway

And it wasn't approved by the FDA until 1998...

Drug Approval Package: Taxol (Paclitaxel) NDA# NDA 20-262/S-024



> Taxol (Paclitaxel) Injection
> Company:  Bristol-Myers Squibb
> Application No.:  NDA 20-262/S-024
> Approval Date: 6/30/1998



Idiot.  Wiki is _such_ a good source....  

And tell me, what good would obamacare have done for your poor, deceased spouse?

Tell me that....

Peddle your hate somewhere else, loser


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

NoTeaPartyPleez said:


> Edgetho said:
> 
> 
> > And speaking of Taxol, you whiny little bitch...  Didja know that the UK's great and wonderful, single-payer NHS REFUSED to pay the price for Taxol to treat women with ovarian cancer?
> ...


you can't scare people with failure try again.


----------



## Redfish (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Redfish said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



If you are 65 or over, you are on medicare.   The vast majority of people with pre-existing conditions are on medicare or medicaid.   putting that requirement in insurance is not a big financial deal.


----------



## dblack (Nov 15, 2013)

Bern80 said:


> What problem really needs solving?



Exactly. In my view there are two distinct, but related, problems: What to do about overpriced health care, and how to help people who can't afford it. Dealing with first problem would obviously make the second easier to deal with. But by completely ignoring the first, the Democrats have only ensured that more and more of us won't be able to afford it.


----------



## Bern80 (Nov 15, 2013)

Sarah G said:


> Their alternative?  Gut it and then go back to big insurance junk policies.



This is nonsensical. What junk policies? Why wouold you agree to pay for said 'junk' policy? You (the consumer) need to start taking a little fucking responsibility for yourself. You act as if you have no control over what kind of insurance coverage you have prior to Obamacare. I hate to say it people, but a big part of this problem is that consumers have absolved themselves of the rresponsibility of understanding and researching what they're purchasing. Employer based insurance is part of that problem, yes, but it's still no excuse for not figuring out how you want to handle the costs of arguably the most important facet of your life.


----------



## boilermaker55 (Nov 15, 2013)

From your own source:
Establishing Universal Access Programs to guaran
tee access to affordable
care for those with pre
-
ex
isting conditions
.
The GOP plan creates Universal Access Programs that expand and reform high
-
risk pools and reinsurance programs to guarantee that all Americans, regardless of pre
-
existing
conditions or past illnesses, have access to affordable ca
re

while lowering costs for all Americans




tinydancer said:


> And Republican alternatives are out there. I found this in two seconds.
> 
> http://camp.house.gov/uploadedfiles/summary_of_republican_alternative_health_care_plan.pdf


----------



## MarcATL (Nov 15, 2013)

OKTexas said:


> Doesn't matter what is said or not here, you will call people liars and push your commie bull shit, and from what I'm seeing people ain't going to play your game, good for them.


Your Honor, may I present to you *Exhibit F*:

Here the Republican subject blatantly refuses to answer the question, and engages with an old and tired trick of positing WHY they won't by speculating and predicting that their answer won't matter and/or make a difference.

Therefore offering *NO *solution to the direct question as to what the Republican alternative is to ObamaCare.

Your Honor, may the record show that this is the *FIFTH *consecutive Republican response on the first (1st) page of this thread that offers NO solution to the millions of uninsured Americans.

See a pattern here?


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

Redfish said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > Redfish said:
> ...



But that was the big selling point for obamacare.


----------



## JakeStarkey (Nov 15, 2013)

Bern80, all of what you say is true but still falls short.

The barrier has been raised to accessible and affordable quality health insurance for all Americans.

We are not going back to what we had before.


----------



## Bern80 (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> asterism said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...



What you fail to understand is that when you ask a question and demand an answer as you're doing it requires that I accept whatever premise is behind it. There are a couple of premises behind your question that you're asking we accept. 1) That there is actually a problem (which you just now finally defined as how to get healthcare to people that can't afford it) and 2) That it's the government's job to fix that problem. If you don't accept 2 then the there really is no answer to your question.

There's a distinction between no solution and an answer you don't like, it seems you are missing. I had a few questions for you earlier that you glossed over because they obviously aren't very convenient for you to answer with respect to your argument.


----------



## NoTeaPartyPleez (Nov 15, 2013)

Edgetho said:


> NoTeaPartyPleez said:
> 
> 
> > Edgetho said:
> ...



*
Taxol was given to women with ovarian cancer in 1976 at MD Anderson, and it may have been used in the experimental mode, which meant that there was no insurance to cover the cost.  I was there and remember that it was unrefined and made many people violently ill.

Preventative screening would have shown the cancer at an early, contained stage-1 disease.  The problem would have cost around $30,000 in 2004.  That's what we learned at Sloan Kettering.   

So as a policy holder who is going to bear the cost of others in their pool, which bill would you rather have spread around by your beloved health insurance carrier?  $30,000 or $1,300,000?

You are truly vile...and so fucking scared right now your ball sack has disappeared.*


----------



## boilermaker55 (Nov 15, 2013)

Keep beating the drum about personal responsibilities while citizen united has made if far easier for large companies(corporations) to buy politicians and have the laws moved in their favor.
Your typical response does not make much sense in a litigious world where money and time give those with money and power all the edge. 



Bern80 said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> > Their alternative?  Gut it and then go back to big insurance junk policies.
> ...


----------



## bravoactual (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> And who is pushing it?
> 
> Does anyone really believe that the Republicans want to help Americans get good health insurance?



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-usmvYOPfco]Alan Grayson on the GOP Health Care Plan: "Don't Get Sick! And if You Do Get Sick, Die Quickly!"' - YouTube[/ame].


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

JakeStarkey said:


> Bern80, all of what you say is true but still falls short.
> 
> The barrier has been raised to accessible and affordable quality health insurance for all Americans.
> 
> We are not going back to what we had before.



 affordable healthcare coverage due to obamafail


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

bravoactual said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > And who is pushing it?
> ...



grayson's a punk and if it wasn't for that secret service protection he wouldn't say some of the shit he says.


----------



## Edgetho (Nov 15, 2013)

NoTeaPartyPleez said:


> Edgetho said:
> 
> 
> > And speaking of Taxol, you whiny little bitch...  Didja know that the UK's great and wonderful, single-payer NHS REFUSED to pay the price for Taxol to treat women with ovarian cancer?
> ...



Ignorant fuck, then take it up with the FDA.  THEY are the ones that approve or deny the use of drugs and treatments.

Fucking idiot.

And here is an excerpt from an article from the year 2000

NICE approves Taxol for ovarian cancer



> The cytotoxic drug paclitaxel (Taxol) is to be made available to all women in England and Wales with ovarian cancer following the *long awaited* ruling by the National Institute for Clinical Excellence (NICE).
> 
> Paclitaxel, in combination with platinum, should be the first line treatment after surgery in all cases of ovarian cancer and should also be used to treat women whose cancer has recurred or has failed to respond to other forms of treatment, according to NICE.
> 
> The recommendation is expected to cost the NHS an additional £7m ($11.2m) a year to treat &#8230;



They FUCKING DENIED IT TO WOMEN DYING OF CANCER.

Did you get anything DENIED to you?

You're a lying fucking douche and I don't believe anything you say.

I still am having trouble understanding what effect obamacare would have had on your unfortunate circumstance.

How about -- None.  You're just a hater.....  A typical dimocrap


----------



## MarcATL (Nov 15, 2013)

WelfareQueen said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > And who is pushing it?
> ...


1. How, specifically, does that help the currently uninsured to get and/or afford health insurance?

2. How does "tort reform" help the currently uninsured to get, or afford, health insurance?

3. Lay that out, because that sounds like another generic RW talking point. What does "expand health savings accounts" mean? How does it apply, specifically, to the millions of currently uninsured Americans and help them get insured?

4. ObamaCare does that, so why not go with that and expound on OTHER ideas to help the currently uninsured?

How does scrapping the entire thing, and starting over help the currently uninsured? How is that idea even responsible?


----------



## RKMBrown (Nov 15, 2013)

dblack said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



Ding ding ding... give the man a cigar!


----------



## NYcarbineer (Nov 15, 2013)

TooTall said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> > Contumacious said:
> ...



So a family shouldn't prioritize having a house over having health insurance?

btw, in a free market insurance environment, the seller can simply set prices so high for certain people, or simply deny them coverage outright,

if the insurer doesn't want to bother with them.  Is that really the kind of country you want?


----------



## Edgetho (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> WelfareQueen said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...



obamacare does SHIT because that's what it is -- Shit.

And it is headed for the shitpile.  Of that, you can be certain.

Maybe next time, you'll ask the grown ups for help.


----------



## Contumacious (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> 1. How, specifically, does that help the currently uninsured to get and/or afford health insurance?
> 
> ?



Typical fascist motherfucker. 

Let the federal government MANUFACTURE emergencies then adopt UNconstitutional powers.

STFU

That question has been asked and answered.

.


----------



## NYcarbineer (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> NoTeaPartyPleez said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...



Insurance companies are cancelling policies and trying to steer people into more expensive policies for the benefit of the insurance companies.


----------



## Meister (Nov 15, 2013)

NYcarbineer said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > NoTeaPartyPleez said:
> ...



You're in complete denial if you don't think that the policies were forced to change because of the mandates obamacare placed on the industry.


----------



## Bern80 (Nov 15, 2013)

JakeStarkey said:


> Bern80, all of what you say is true but still falls short.
> 
> The barrier has been raised to accessible and affordable quality health insurance for all Americans.
> 
> We are not going back to what we had before.



Obamacare is not what we had before. And before when exactly? Because way back in the day like the middle part of the last century the common form of insurance was referred to as major medical. It covered major health care expenses. The every day maintanence type things, people simply paid for.


----------



## NoTeaPartyPleez (Nov 15, 2013)

Edgetho said:


> NoTeaPartyPleez said:
> 
> 
> > Edgetho said:
> ...




*Yes, there was plenty denied to us. 

Our insurance failed to confirm the oncologist's diagnosis of transitional as opposed to renal cell type, thus delaying the start of chemotherapy. 

 A procedure that was given to Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg specifically, and almost within about within the same week that we were seeking the same procedure for my spouse at Sloan Kettering.  And you will note she is still alive.  

Our insurer decided that PET scans would no longer be allowed after about a year or so.  The best diagnostic tool available.  Too expensive, they said.

I don't care if you don't believe me.  You're HOPING I'm a liar. 

You will find out the reality soon enough for either yourself or someone in your family.  

THe ACA affords SCREENING, preventative testing.  That would have saved my spouse's life.  

*


----------



## Bern80 (Nov 15, 2013)

boilermaker55 said:


> Keep beating the drum about personal responsibilities while citizen united has made if far easier for large companies(corporations) to buy politicians and have the laws moved in their favor.
> Your typical response does not make much sense in a litigious world where money and time give those with money and power all the edge.
> 
> 
> ...



yes that's a problem, but at the end of the day you can't lie to people about you're selling. You can't pretend you don't have the ability to find out if your insurance company can drop you if you get sick. You can't pretend that you can't find out specifically what your policy covers. You can. The simpe reality is most people don't take the time to find out.


----------



## Meister (Nov 15, 2013)

Bern80 said:


> boilermaker55 said:
> 
> 
> > Keep beating the drum about personal responsibilities while citizen united has made if far easier for large companies(corporations) to buy politicians and have the laws moved in their favor.
> ...



It was the only way that Obama could secure enough democrat votes to get this debacle passed.  He would have sold his mother and father to attain this travesty.


----------



## Edgetho (Nov 15, 2013)

NoTeaPartyPleez said:


> Edgetho said:
> 
> 
> > NoTeaPartyPleez said:
> ...



No.  I KNOW you're a liar.

A first year law-student would fucking OWN that Insurance Company if what you claim were true.

It isn't.  

I spent 25 years in the Insurance Industry and what you're describing (actually lying about) I've seen a hundred times.

You're bitter.  I don't blame you for being hurt.  I don't blame you for being a little bitter.

But the hate?  Out of control.

You still haven't told me what good the ACA would have done you.

And let me tell you something else.......  After spending $1,300,000 you're trying to claim that the Insurance Company was being cheap?

Fuck you.

Throwing money at a problem seldom fixes it.  

And the last I checked, Insurance Companies don't do PET Scans or chemotherapy.

The last I checked Doctors and Hospitals don't WORK for Insurance Companies.  If they thought that the Chemo or the PET Scan was so important, then they should have done it and worried about the money later.

Insurance Companies don't treat people....  Doctors and Hospitals do.

Wanna get pissed, get pissed at THEM.

Idiot.  

I still think you're full of shit


----------



## Sunshine (Nov 15, 2013)

Sarah G said:


> Their alternative?  Gut it and then go back to big insurance junk policies.



You don't know the policies were 'junk.'  All you know is Obama didn't like them.  You also know he lied.


----------



## RKMBrown (Nov 15, 2013)

Edgetho said:


> NoTeaPartyPleez said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



Yeah but it would have only been a few hundred thousand if the democrats and republicans had not forced the costs to go through the roof with socialist and crony capitalism management of the industry.


----------



## Sunshine (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Redfish said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



If they are working and paying Medicare taxes, I see no problem with that.


----------



## Remodeling Maidiac (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> And who is pushing it?
> 
> Does anyone really believe that the Republicans want to help Americans get good health insurance?



An alternative is not needed. Just repeal the bullshit. Period


----------



## Edgetho (Nov 15, 2013)

One more thing while I'm at it....  

I hear people tell customers at Auto Repair Shops, "You can't be back here, our Insurance Company doesn't allow it."

Which is a load of shit.  The Insurance Company couldn't care less.  They may tell the owner in a "Loss Prevention" meeting that it's not real smart to let kids and customers run around inside a shop that has lots of sharp objects around, but they don't forbid it.  They don't like it, but they don't (and can't) forbid it.  What a crock of shit.

I also hear people say, "We can't let you in the Store until 10:00AM.  Our Insurance won't allow it."

Another fucking lie.  The Insurance Company couldn't care less.  In fact, I doubt they even know what time the Store opens and closes.

People just get stupid and lie about Insurance because they know that the average person doesn't understand it and will believe almost anything someone says about it.

Well guess what?  I'm not your average person. 

Stop lying.....

Oh, my bad.

You're a dimocrap.

Nevermind


----------



## Sunshine (Nov 15, 2013)

NoTeaPartyPleez said:


> Edgetho said:
> 
> 
> > And speaking of Taxol, you whiny little bitch...  Didja know that the UK's great and wonderful, single-payer NHS REFUSED to pay the price for Taxol to treat women with ovarian cancer?
> ...



And if you owe any portion of that, you can go negotiate a lower amount yourself directly with the providers.   A little money is better than no money.  I have never known a facility to refuse a fair offer.


----------



## Edgetho (Nov 15, 2013)

Sunshine said:


> NoTeaPartyPleez said:
> 
> 
> > Edgetho said:
> ...



I love how he claims the Insurance Company spent $1,300,000 to save his 'spouse' but still calls them cheap bastiches.

Under the ACA, you'll be lucky to get them to spend 1/3 of that before they just pull the plug.


----------



## Kosh (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> And who is pushing it?
> 
> Does anyone really believe that the Republicans want to help Americans get good health insurance?



There have been many alternatives put forward, but the far left automatically dismisses them because it does not involve total government control over the masses.

Then again Obamacare is not that much different from what Kennedy tried to force on the American people during the Carter years.

Obamacare is the far left wet dream they have been pushing for 40+ years.


----------



## RKMBrown (Nov 15, 2013)

Redfish said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Redfish said:
> ...


Why?  Why should I pay ten time more for my insurance? The shared pool is medicaid, not private insurance.

Yes, I would put anyone that meats the means test for medicaid onto medicaid.  Yes, IMO that means we should have a system catching and managing catastrophic costs for the poor.  No I don't think that means we can afford to give everyone on the planet that needs a million dollars in health care, a million dollars.  I just don't see how that is sustainable. 

Why should I be forced to sell my house so you can keep yours?  It's nuts.


----------



## Sunshine (Nov 15, 2013)

Edgetho said:


> Sunshine said:
> 
> 
> > NoTeaPartyPleez said:
> ...



Obama claims there is no max through the ACA.  However, when I read the bill, it said the max was $10,000.


----------



## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> And who is pushing it?
> 
> Does anyone really believe that the Republicans want to help Americans get good health insurance?



To be fair, one must believe Republicans as a whole, as a party want "to help Americans get good health insurance", but, but since the 1970s, the rightwing that funds and runs the GOP (not the wingnut voting base - the pawns) has had a laser focus on ridding American business (yes healthcare insurance is a big business as long as it is profit based) of regulation. When it comes to a choice of what is good for the American people as a whole and an ideology based on protecting American Big Business from regulation - the ideology that rules for the rightwingers who fund and run the GOP trumps all. 

dD

Dante


----------



## Edgetho (Nov 15, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Redfish said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



Not to them it isn't


----------



## Kosh (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > And who is pushing it?
> ...



More far left lies!


----------



## Remodeling Maidiac (Nov 15, 2013)

It's not the job of our elected officials to secure anything for us. They aren't there as your personal fucking mommy. 
They are there for one reason only. To represent your vote. Period.

Stop expecting DC to live your life for you.


----------



## Bern80 (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > And who is pushing it?
> ...



You're right. Maybe they really aren't interested in doing that. Not that they can ask it out loud in this new age of entitlements, but of what responsibility is it of government to make sure you can afford health care?


----------



## Contumacious (Nov 15, 2013)

Kosh said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > And who is pushing it?
> ...




Correct.

Reason the boondoggle was adopted in *SECRET* on a snowy Christmas eve at 1:00 AM. A 1400 page edit that no fucking body read.

.


----------



## Edgetho (Nov 15, 2013)

Here's what happens to "Republican Alternatives"

https://twitter.com/GOPLeader/status/401172867267588096/photo/1


----------



## LTCArmyRet (Nov 15, 2013)

Bern80 said:


> Sarah G said:
> 
> 
> > Their alternative?  Gut it and then go back to big insurance junk policies.
> ...



AGREED!!   There's an old saying the needs repeating, "a fool and his money are soon parted".


----------



## MarcATL (Nov 15, 2013)

RDD_1210 said:


> They have no alternative because the republican plan is already in place. It's called the Affordable Care Act.





BobPlumb said:


> RDD_1210 said:
> 
> 
> > They have no alternative because the republican plan is already in place. It's called the Affordable Care Act.
> ...


As you can see in the links below...

'Obamacare' Was Originally Proposed By Republicans | IVN.us
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/30/opinion/sunday/why-obamacare-is-a-conservatives-dream.html
Paul Ryan Makes Big Admission: Republicans Helped Write Obamacare | ThinkProgress
How the Heritage Foundation, a Conservative Think Tank, Promoted the Individual Mandate - Forbes
The Irony of Obamacare: Republicans Thought of It First | Wall St. Cheat Sheet
Republicans Turn Against Their Own Health Reform Proposals | Center for American Progress
25 Republicans Who Supported Obamacare Before Obama | Mother Jones

ObamCare is based on Republican ideas. Period.


----------



## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

Kosh said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...



Huh?


----------



## Kosh (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> RDD_1210 said:
> 
> 
> > They have no alternative because the republican plan is already in place. It's called the Affordable Care Act.
> ...



And the far left uses far left blog sites as their "facts".

No wonder the far left has no clue as to what is really going on.


----------



## Kosh (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> Kosh said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



The far left can not understand anything beyond their programming, but will post lies as if they were facts.


----------



## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

Grampa Murked U said:


> It's not the job of our elected officials to secure anything for us. They aren't there as your personal fucking mommy.
> They are there for one reason only. To represent your vote. Period.
> 
> Stop expecting DC to live your life for you.



Wrong.

Represent a vote?  How the fuck does that work?


----------



## Contumacious (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> RDD_1210 said:
> 
> 
> > They have no alternative because the republican plan is already in place. It's called the Affordable Care Act.
> ...




Again, those ideas suck , they were never acted upon by Republicans reason Reid (D-USSR) introduced the legislation* IN SECRET* at 1:00 AM on a snowy Christmas eve. 1400 pages of Marxist bullshit which were read by no one.

.


----------



## Edgetho (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> RDD_1210 said:
> 
> 
> > They have no alternative because the republican plan is already in place. It's called the Affordable Care Act.
> ...



Yeah, that's why so many Republicans voted for it.

You aren't convincing anybody, dewd.  Not even yourself.

We told for the last five years that obama was a phony and a liar.  

We told you for the last five years that obamacare would be a disaster.

You didn't want to listen, now you're going to pay the price....  The destruction of the dimocrap party.

Who needs you anyway??

Everything you people touch you turn to shit.  Everything.


----------



## MarcATL (Nov 15, 2013)

Geaux4it said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > And who is pushing it?
> ...





Grampa Murked U said:


> *It's not the job of our elected officials to secure anything for us. They aren't there as your personal fucking mommy. *
> They are there for one reason only. To represent your vote. Period.
> 
> Stop expecting DC to live your life for you.





Bern80 said:


> You're right. Maybe they really aren't interested in doing that. Not that they can ask it out loud in this new age of entitlements, *but of what responsibility is it of government to make sure you can afford health care?*


Your Honor, I present to you the Republican alternative to ObamaCare...the status quo.

I rest my case.


----------



## Kosh (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> Grampa Murked U said:
> 
> 
> > It's not the job of our elected officials to secure anything for us. They aren't there as your personal fucking mommy.
> ...



Ask all those far left representatives that were against Obamacare before they were for it.


----------



## RKMBrown (Nov 15, 2013)

Sunshine said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > Redfish said:
> ...



Medicare taxes are paying for people who are retired. Additionally, the regulations around the prices being set for people on medicare is based on those folks being the elderly.  Mix the pool with everyone else and you end up treating the group like everyone else, instead of giving medicare recipients special consideration.  

I'd rather let the people join the federal employe health care plan by paying the amount we pay for said plan per employee.  Just a thought.


----------



## Edgetho (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> Geaux4it said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...



Do you have a lot of imaginary friends?


----------



## Contumacious (Nov 15, 2013)

Edgetho said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > RDD_1210 said:
> ...



*Republicans that voted for it = 0*

.


----------



## Kosh (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> Geaux4it said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...



Says the one who is quoting the far left status quo and is incapable of seeing anything outside their programming.


----------



## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

Bern80 said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...



We already pay for each others healthcare. The SCOTUS ruling lays out the answer in the constitutional sphere. In the moral and ethical spheres.if you want to deny society's obligation and duty here, go ahead.


----------



## RKMBrown (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> Geaux4it said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...


No reason for you to make up lies. Are you just trolling?


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

NYcarbineer said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > NoTeaPartyPleez said:
> ...



Insurance companies would not be canceling policies if not for obamacare. However if what you say had one ounce of truth why haven't they done this more often BEFORE OBAMACARE?


----------



## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

LTCArmyRet said:


> Bern80 said:
> 
> 
> > Sarah G said:
> ...



And that is exactly what parts of the PPACA/Obamacare address.  When healthcare insurers use that maxim to cheat people on policies thst end up affevting all of society...


----------



## dblack (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> LTCArmyRet said:
> 
> 
> > Bern80 said:
> ...



Ha!, Yep. They sure do. They enshrine the 'parting' into law.


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> LTCArmyRet said:
> 
> 
> > Bern80 said:
> ...


You've watch John Q way to much.


----------



## Spoonman (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > What is the Republican alternative to lies and fraud and telling people they're too stupid to understand that you're lying to them for their own good?
> ...



well at least she didn't lie and say you could keep your existing plan


----------



## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > Geaux4it said:
> ...



No reason for you to spam a thread with posts of no value. Oh yeah, it's what oblivious trolls like you do.

You'd be worthy if you could admit how trollish you are...tgen your spam would have value.  :


----------



## Edgetho (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> LTCArmyRet said:
> 
> 
> > Bern80 said:
> ...



Yeah, because everybody that gets sick in this Country dies a horrible death because as soon as they get sick, their Insurance Company cancels them.

dimocraps are stupid beyond fucking belief.

Just.....   fucking stupid


----------



## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> NYcarbineer said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...



Yeah, insurance companies would continue to use smoke and mirrors to sell worthless policies to gullible fools, only to have tax payers bail.everyone out as insurers laugh all the way to the Skyscrapers and Banks they build and own.


----------



## dblack (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > NYcarbineer said:
> ...



Yep. No need for smoke and mirrors anymore.


----------



## RKMBrown (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...



Sunshine and I and others proposed solutions. In response the OP highlighted the rhetoric in his thread that are not solutions.  Then in response to me calling that out as obvious trolling, you call me spammer.  So no only is he Trolling, you are an asshole that deflects away from your own failings on the people who are funding your health care.  Must suck to be you.


----------



## Meister (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > NYcarbineer said:
> ...


----------



## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

Edgetho said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > LTCArmyRet said:
> ...



Democrats?  

Reading rightwing whacko blogs, listening to whack-a-doodle rightwing radio, and watching "Fair and Balanced" FOX News has you mistaking all opposition to their talking points as bei.g part of a Democratic conspiracy. Many people who voted for Obama and therefore the PPACA/Obamacare were not and are not Democrats. 

And the  Whacky World of Wingnut News has you setting up arguments and knocking them down regardless of who and what you are responding to.  Imagine that


----------



## Bern80 (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> Bern80 said:
> 
> 
> > You're right. Maybe they really aren't interested in doing that. Not that they can ask it out loud in this new age of entitlements, *but of what responsibility is it of government to make sure you can afford health care?*
> ...



If you don't like people ignoring your question that do the courtesy of not ignoring mine. You asked what the Republican alternative is. That presuposses that there _should_ be an alternative. I don't accept that premise unless you can come with a persuasive argument that it's the government's obligation (and thus by extension mine) to help people who can't afford their own health care.


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > NYcarbineer said:
> ...



If that were really true, but you know it was a lie when you posted  it.
DUMB ASS


----------



## Bern80 (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> We already pay for each others healthcare. The SCOTUS ruling lays out the answer in the constitutional sphere. In the moral and ethical spheres.if you want to deny society's obligation and duty here, go ahead.



Yes, we do. That doesn't serve as a valid argument that we _should_. Where did SCOTUS rule that it is the government's obligation (and thus mine) to pay for those who can't pay for themselves? Who came up with this societal obligation? You're just spouting vague nonsense because you know that this in fact is NOT a proper role of government.


----------



## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

[MENTION=20503]Contumacious[/MENTION]


Contumacious said:


> Edgetho said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...


:rol:

How patheticly ignorant and illinformed.    Votes along party lines = equal individual beliefs and support?  

And where in the US Constitution do people find suppory for arguments you make about laws being invalid for lack of multiparty support?


----------



## MarcATL (Nov 15, 2013)

NoTeaPartyPleez said:


> oreo said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...







NoTeaPartyPleez said:


> billyerock1991 said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...


It's crystal clear to see that The Republican Alternative is to maintain the *status quo*.


----------



## MarcATL (Nov 15, 2013)

Seawytch said:


> WelfareQueen said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...


The Republicans are dishonest brokers. Period.


----------



## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...



Lying?  Stop the hysteria and hyperbole 

You know that as long as health insurance is a for profit business, the health insurance industry will do research and manipulate laws to allow it to design/model and market policies that are deceptive and misleading. This is easily proven by the amount of money and lobbying they throw at mucking up any reforms that shine a light on their shady practices


----------



## MarcATL (Nov 15, 2013)

ecinicola said:


> marcatl said:
> 
> 
> > and who is pushing it?
> ...


...yes.


----------



## cereal_killer (Nov 15, 2013)

Here are some ideas that I believe are a great start. Cannot remember who proposed them, but I_think_most American's would be onboard with these ideas:

1. Dump the ACA
2. Repeal all state laws which prevent insurance companies from competing across state lines.
3. Enact tort reform 
4. Enact Medicare reform
5. Drop government mandates regarding what insurance companies must cover.
6. Revise tax forms to make it easier for individuals to make a VOLUNTARY, tax-deductible donation to help the millions of people who have no insurance and aren't covered by Medicare, Medicaid or the State Children's Health Insurance Program
7. Equalize the tax laws so that employer-provided health insurance and individually owned health insurance have the same tax benefits.

So much fucking dysfunction in this thread  Christ people, talk it out


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > NYcarbineer said:
> ...



I've never seen any evidence of these "worthless policies," only a lot of libturd propaganda on the subject.  Can you provide a cite for an actual case of someone who got burned by such a policy?


----------



## Spoonman (Nov 15, 2013)

cereal_killer said:


> Here are some ideas that I believe are a great start. Cannot remember who proposed them, but I_think_most American's would be onboard with these ideas:
> 
> 1. Dump the ACA
> 2. Repeal all state laws which prevent insurance companies from competing across state lines.
> ...



some good ideas there.  politicians are sure to avoid these like the plague


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> Bern80 said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...


this is a crock of shit. the supreme court ruled obamacare mandate was unconstitutional they ruled it as a tax.


----------



## Avatar4321 (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> It's crystal clear to see that The Republican Alternative is to maintain the *status quo*.



No. it's to empower people by returning health care to the free market and allowing people choice.

First step in that process is repealing Obamacare.

If we keep trying to outsource our repsonsibilities for our own health to the government we are going to end up a very sick people.


----------



## MarcATL (Nov 15, 2013)

rightwinger said:


> ecinicola said:
> 
> 
> > I did hear boehner say that obamacare needs to be scrapped, totally..............i go along with that 100%    obamacare was a disaster when they first made the law and its turning out to be just that..........scrap it.
> ...


It makes a lot of sense to me. However, it won't happen because the Republicans have never been honest brokers on this issue. They are or the status quo.

"Let 'em die." is their motto.

Sad.

The good news is, that 2014 is coming and it will be Winter for the Republicans.


----------



## Bern80 (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > NYcarbineer said:
> ...



Yes, more of the 'it's for your own good' bullshit. God forbid people actually take the time to understand what they're actually buying.


----------



## RKMBrown (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...



Typical Rules for Radical response of a morally degenerate Socialist/Marxist rube. Deflect, ridicule, belittle anyone with an opposing solution and esp. solutions that have a proven track record of success. 

Where I thought you to be a decent sort of person.  I now see you as nothing more than a POS parasite. Gratz.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



Well, even if that were true, it couldn't be worse than Obamacare.  What could have been more misleading or manipulative than Obama's lies about Obamacare?  Talk about "manipulation," do you think anyone would have approved of Obamacare if they knew their rates were going to be jacked up by 50% or 100% to cover the cost of insuring illegal aliens?  Do you think they knew they were going to be forced to pay for abortions, maternity care, birth control, sex change operations and psychiatric care?

Nothing any insurance company has ever done comes anywhere close to Obamacare.

For the record, I've never had a problem with health insurance companies.  I've had a number of serious medical incidents and the insurance companies paid for everything, just like they said they would.

You see, unlike politicians, insurance companies can't lie about their policies.  The can't commit fraud as Obama and the Democrats do with impunity.


----------



## Bern80 (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > ecinicola said:
> ...



Again you refuse to acknowledge the government alternative which is force someone else to pay for them.


----------



## MarcATL (Nov 15, 2013)

rightwinger said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


My friend, the Republicans are not, nor have the ever been honest brokers on this issue.

Therefore they have no plan. Other than the *status quo* that is,


----------



## MarcATL (Nov 15, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...


Yes, thank you.

God bless you too Brother.


----------



## cereal_killer (Nov 15, 2013)

Spoonman said:


> cereal_killer said:
> 
> 
> > Here are some ideas that I believe are a great start. Cannot remember who proposed them, but I_think_most American's would be onboard with these ideas:
> ...


Unfortunately you're probably right and it's very frustrating. Common sense doesn't get you too far in Washington


----------



## Spoonman (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



the status quo?  wait, wasn't that just obamas solution to fix the colossal mess he created by launching obamacare?


----------



## Edgetho (Nov 15, 2013)

cereal_killer said:


> Here are some ideas that I believe are a great start. Cannot remember who proposed them, but I_think_most American's would be onboard with these ideas:
> 
> 1. Dump the ACA
> 2. Repeal all state laws which prevent insurance companies from competing across state lines.
> ...



Number 1 is a must.

Number 2 is irrelevant.  Has nothing to do with nothing.

Number 3 would solve a LOT of problems.  In fact, my favorite Shakespearean Character EVAH is Dick the Butcher.

Number 4; not sure what that would do for anybody

Number 5, you mean Federal Mandates?  Right, well those go out the door with the ACA.

Number 6....  Okay    What the hell

Number 7.  For way too long, people who buy their own insurance been screwed onthis one.  Good one.

I would like to add one......  Instead of putting HEALTHY people on Medicaid, buy an insurance policy FOR them.

Of course, there will be the ones with chronic and incurable conditions that need to stay on gubmint plans, but getting people off Medicaid would work wonders.

And the Tort Reform deal?  You would be AMAZED how much that would save.  I'm talking 30% or more.

And to our resident liberals....  Please don't bore me with idiotic studies that show Lawyers only cost a small percentage of our Health Dollars.

It is GIGANTIC what they cost us.  Off the charts.

Besides, I don't like them.

There's other ideas we can work on but....  you know, dems are so smart, they don't need anybody telling them how to do anything.

obamacare is proof of that


----------



## Bern80 (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



Join us back in reality. The one group of people we know for absolute certaintude lied to us is your boy, Obama and the democrats.


----------



## Spoonman (Nov 15, 2013)

cereal_killer said:


> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> > cereal_killer said:
> ...



the only way common sense ever eeks through in washington is if someone was paid off to implement it


----------



## Contumacious (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> [MENTION=20503]Contumacious[/MENTION]
> 
> 
> Contumacious said:
> ...




Actually the Constitution is silent about political parties.

But the Constitution is clear about where Revenue bills must originate : IN THE HOUSE WHICH NEVER NEVER NEVER had a chance to consider Obama Hellcare.

.


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > ecinicola said:
> ...


Just keep thinking that if obamacare was so good and the democrats weren't concerned why is obama trying to make changes in the law?
Democrats wanted this now you have got to spend that money for the dance you did.


----------



## MarcATL (Nov 15, 2013)

Bern80 said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


No, what YOU refuse to acknowledge is the fact that we are CURRENTLY forced to pay for the uninsured.

Cut your BS.


----------



## RKMBrown (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...



Your welcome.  Glad to be of help.


----------



## Edgetho (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...


----------



## MarcATL (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > rightwinger said:
> ...


The Democrats are NOTORIOUS for being yellow-livered, weak-kneed weasels.

They're caving over politics, as usual.

Nothing new.

The tides will change once the website gets fixed and folks start enrolling and more people start experiencing the benefits waiting for them.

What will be your excuse for hating Obama and ObamaCare then?


----------



## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

Bern80 said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > We already pay for each others healthcare. The SCOTUS ruling lays out the answer in the constitutional sphere. In the moral and ethical spheres.if you want to deny society's obligation and duty here, go ahead.
> ...





Thank you for being honest and acknowledging that the argument on your side is philosophical and ideological -- a battle of competing morality and ethics, what kond of a society we 'want' to love in.  

Agreed: We ultimately and eventually pay for the healthcare of others. 

Disagree: Society should look to healthcare insurance as an entitlement and right for a just society to exist in our modern world.

Ignorance of   [MENTION=637]Bern80[/MENTION] : SCOTUS ruling

Question: What did the SCOTUS rule on the constitutionality of tge PPACA/Obamacare?

Answer: The PPACA/Obamacare is constitutional on the role of the power(s) invested in the Legislative Branch of government. 

Whether the GOP and Rightwing in America voted for a plan based on previously backed conservative arguments and ideas -- out of ideology and party politics, is irrelevant to the constitutionality of the act


----------



## Bern80 (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> Bern80 said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...



And we still will be under Obamacare. Obamacare isn't going to magically make people who didn't have the money before have it now. There will always be people who can't pay. If they can't someone else will have to. Obamacare essentially mandates that the young and healthy pay for the old and sick. My suggestion is that we move to a system that brings us as close as possible to everyone paying for themselves. Obamacare does not accomplish that and in fact discourages it.


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> Bern80 said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...



Where do you get your talking points?


----------



## MarcATL (Nov 15, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > billyerock1991 said:
> ...


Jigger what!?!?


----------



## Edgetho (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> Bern80 said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...



And now the gubmint wants us to pay for them AGAIN........  TWICE.

If we're ALREADY PAYING FOR THEM, WHY DO WE HAVE TO PAY FOR THEM AGAIN.

You really should think.

Don't tell me you are....  Please.  That would hurt


----------



## MarcATL (Nov 15, 2013)

Bern80 said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > Bern80 said:
> ...


At much, much, much lower rates AND the majority of the American People will be covered by GOOD health care plans.

What seems to be the problem?


----------



## Edgetho (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> marcatl said:
> 
> 
> > bern80 said:
> ...



cpusa


----------



## dblack (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> No, what YOU refuse to acknowledge is the fact that we are CURRENTLY forced to pay for the uninsured.
> 
> Cut your BS.



This seems like such an odd argument. It's basically 'hair of the dog that bit me'. We have unintended consequences from an ill-conceived, unfunded mandate and your solution is another ill-conceived, unfunded mandate.


----------



## Spoonman (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > Bern80 said:
> ...



where most people usually wipe


----------



## Edgetho (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> Bern80 said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...



Where do you come up with this shit, dewd?

If we're ALREADY paying for them, are we going to be getting a Tax Refund or some such bullshit when we fully enact obamacare?

I nailed your nuts to the wall on that one.  Don't even try

Edge strikes down another idiotic dimocrap talking point.

I love myself


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> Bern80 said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...



Another failed talking point.
If rates are cheaper why are rates going up?


----------



## Edgetho (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > Bern80 said:
> ...



And if we're already paying for them, why do we have to pay for them again?


----------



## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > Bern80 said:
> ...



The PPACA contains a 'mandate'

The mandate contains a 'penalty'

The penalty was ruled a 'tax'

The Congress has the constitutional role to pass a tax.


Please try to keep informed, honest, and less hystetical


----------



## Bern80 (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> Disagree: Society should look to healthcare insurance as an entitlement and right for a just society to exist in our modern world.



How is it moral or just to force a man to finance another's existence?



Dante said:


> Ignorance of   [MENTION=637]Bern80[/MENTION] : SCOTUS ruling
> 
> Question: What did the SCOTUS rule on the constitutionality of tge PPACA/Obamacare?
> 
> ...



I know what SCOTUS ruled on Obamacare. It was not general as to whether the entire bill was constitutional. It was whether the mandate was constitutional which they didn't really rule on one way or the other they simply declared that the penalty for not purchasing it is in fact a tax.


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



One more time the mandate was ruled unconstitutional
obamacare was ruled a tax
Something obama had said earlier it wasn't.
Keep supporting the lie and liar in chief.


----------



## dblack (Nov 15, 2013)

Bern80 said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > Disagree: Society should look to healthcare insurance as an entitlement and right for a just society to exist in our modern world.
> ...



At the core of our political dysfunction is the fantasy that we have a right to be take care of.


----------



## Edgetho (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



Yes, and the SCOTUS has ruled that taxes must be levied in a uniform manner.  You can't pick who has to pay taxes and who doesn't

the Stuttering Clusterfuck has upset that applecart and if someone challenges him in Court on this, the whole thing might get tossed


----------



## LTCArmyRet (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...



Keep telling yourself that this legislative abomination will work if that helps you sleep at night.  Meanwhile, there are Americans out there that have been paying good money for years on a health care policy that they were satisfied with.  Now it's being stripped from them and then being told that in order to get similar coverage, their premiums are going up and their co-pays are going through the roof.

Just proof that ignorance is bliss.


----------



## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

Edgetho said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...



Again?  

We do not 'have to' pay for anyone who is sick, ill, injured, or otherwise in need of medical attention.

You are free to be honest here.  You believe people should take care of themselves without insurance?  You believe the government shouldn't regulate the healthcare insurance industry?


----------



## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

Edgetho said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...



What in the Whacky World of Wingnut Nation are you babbling on about "You can't pick who has to pay taxes and who doesn't"?   People who 'choose' not to pay the penalty/tax under the mandate, have chosen to pay. 

We tax things, not people. Who has to pay taxes is always decided this way.


----------



## tinydancer (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> Edgetho said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...



Obamacare is a lie. Obama is a liar. Democrats all lied. Some Republicans lied.

Why should any one in America trust liars to run their healthcare system?

This is the question that must be answered.


----------



## Bern80 (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



Accept this 'tax' has a characteristic that no other tax in existence has. It can only be levied against people who don't take part in an action mandated by the federal government. An action that forces them to spend money.


----------



## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

Bern80 said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...



Utilitu bills, insurance coverage, health food, vitamin supplements...water in bottles, advertisements and reasearch into human behavior are used to confuse people in order to sell products.

Why regulate commerce?  Why not every man for himself and buyers beware? 

You need to stop being an angry lemming and grow the fuck up.


----------



## tinydancer (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> Edgetho said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



You lied that everyone could keep their current plan if they wished to.

You lied that Obamacare would be cheaper. I put up a thread last night that the head honcho has now finally freaking admitted that MOST PLANS WILL BE MORE EXPENSIVE EVEN WITH SUBSIDIES.

How fucked up is this dog breakfast and with morons like you defending this bullshit on line?

You are screwed up man and you just now went into the shitter like kidrocks and black label that are in here daily as cheerleaders for the administration. 

And I know there are more of you. Just haven't figured out how I am going to handle you in the future because you are lying pieces of fecal matter who propagandize on this site.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> Bern80 said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...



The problem? The 5 million people not being covered by GOOD health care plans. The 5 million people who may be forced to purchase WORSE health care plans at much, much higher rates.


----------



## tinydancer (Nov 15, 2013)

To me the symbolism is easy. I used to breed and raise catahoulas.

The dogs are a conservative dream. The pig represents the left wingers in the nation.

My side if you keep to the bay up and you never cave to the idiots that want to be progressive conservatives always beat the pig that is the left. 

Keep baying like Cruz and Lee babies. And you  will and you shall own 2014 in the House and the Senate.


----------



## tinydancer (Nov 15, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > Bern80 said:
> ...



Yeah and those numbers are the only ones they have let out to date.

Silly libs. People are losing their healthcare by the millions but being proud of what is it 27,000 signed up?

So progressive. They think this is a good thing. Change.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 15, 2013)

LOL ... reading along and still seeing the left implying that Obama lied because Republicans weren't bargaining in good faith.

ROFL

Give it up.  Obamacare and the nation are fucked because Democrats didn't act in good faith.



Just like how Hyde and Gingrich rushed the Clinton impeachment through because a midterm election showed their hold on power wasn't quite as tight as they hoped, Democrats rushed the ACA into law because with the election of Scott Brown they could no longer deny that America was not with them on the legislation.

Democrats could have  passed legislation which didn't increase the angst of Americans and they could have not lied about  it.  They could have taken a path which could have brought independents into their column and thus swayed savvy moderate Republicans.  They chose to do the opposite.  And now Democrats want us to address the symptoms of what is wrong here and not address the illness which brought us to the current crisis point.  

I have no specific plan for a replacement of Obamacare.  Whatever the replacement is -- and there is going to need to be one  -- it needs to be approached honestly and with an attempt to find common ground.  The kind of approach the true statesman Lieberman suggested back in 2009 -- you know -- the guy Democrats reviled because he had such good sense and didn't walk lockstep with people who were bound and determined to make a bad situation worse.


----------



## Sallow (Nov 15, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > Bern80 said:
> ...



That's not what's happening.

What happened was that insurance companies sold many people "cheap' health care plans that were sub par without telling them that.

They were "sub par" because they didn't cover much in the way of healthcare. Many had really strict caps on how much they would cover..as in they would only go up to a few thousand dollars. They sold these after the law went into effect and had every intention of canceling, jacking up the prices and blaming it on ObamaCare.

Neat trick.

It's amazing so many of you folks fell for it.

Well not really.

By the way..I am selling a bridge in brooklyn..cheap.

You can call it the TemplarKormac Bridge and charge cars to cross it.

Let me know if you are interested.


----------



## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

Bern80 said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...



We can engage in semantics and sophistry all day. You and I can phrase and rephrase things over and over. One thing will NOT change: PPACA/Obamacare is constitutional today.


----------



## RKMBrown (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...



OCA bans high deductible low premium insurance plans.  For example, HSA plans.  The idea with an HSA plan is you put your money in a bank account similar to a 401k plan only it's only safe interest bearing cash management stuff.  When you need health care you pay for it out of your HSA account, when you hit your deductible the insurance kicks in. IOW the insurance premium is for covering big ticket items that cost more than your deductible. Typically the deductible for an HSA is around 5k for an individual and 10k for a family. But the premiums are about 5k less for the family.  So the way the math works is you are healthy and don't need much health care you save a lot of money each year.  Then when you are not healthy that 5k a year you were banking is then used till you meet your deductible.  It's a free market solution. It's great for healthy people.  Not so good for people with young kids that need a lot of doctor visits, or older people with health care issues.

When I was young I decided to forgo paying for life insurance. Instead I banked the money for life insurance in my own savings account.  Now I have more in savings than would be paid by the life insurance company.  Further I can use that money for health care if I so desire. 

IMO Insurance is a bad bet for young healthy folks. If you went to vegas would you buy loss insurance that basically guarantees you loose, but not as much as you might loose?


----------



## Sallow (Nov 15, 2013)

Amelia said:


> LOL ... reading along and still seeing the left implying that Obama lied because Republicans weren't bargaining in good faith.
> 
> ROFL
> 
> ...



Some of this is correct.

Democrats wouldn't have been able to pass a healthcare plan because Republicans have absolutely no interest in it.

None.

And they should say that.

They should say they want no government "interference" in healthcare.

None whatsoever..and they should run on that.


----------



## Edgetho (Nov 15, 2013)

Sallow said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...



You are such an incredible lying sack of shit.

Do you have any idea how much power the Insurance Commissioner in a State has?

Of course not, you're not only a liar, you're stupid.

In my State, the Insurance Commissioner is the 2nd most powerful man in the State.

And you go around selling policies to people that you haven't explained them to, that people don't understand, or that you have lied to them about, and YOU WILL GO TO JAIL.

Try it and find out what happens.

You WILL go to Jail as an Individual and the Insurance Company WILL get fined out the ass and have to make good on any claims.

You are a lying sack of shit.

But, you're a dimocrap, what else is new?


----------



## Sallow (Nov 15, 2013)

tinydancer said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...



27.000 only?

Are you sticking with that number? Or do you want a lifeline.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Nov 15, 2013)

Sallow said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...



Funny, I fail to see how every one of those 5 million people had 'sub par' plans, Sallow. Your conspiracy isn't even convincing enough to argue.


----------



## Sallow (Nov 15, 2013)

Edgetho said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...



Haven't lied at all, little lady.

Those are the facts.


----------



## tinydancer (Nov 15, 2013)

Amelia said:


> LOL ... reading along and still seeing the left implying that Obama lied because Republicans weren't bargaining in good faith.
> 
> ROFL
> 
> ...



I really do believe and I have talked with so many over this is that this was not a true attempt at a solution to make Health Care in America more functional on dollars spent versus the populace getting a bigger bang on their dollar.

This was the penultimate academic piece of shit legislation proving one more time, academics don't have a clue how "things work".

Consequently, this fucking sucks big time. Pardon my french but you guys are so screwed it's unreal.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Nov 15, 2013)

Sallow said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...



Fewer Than 27,000 Signed Up for Insurance on Federal Obamacare Website: White House | NBC Bay Area

Here's your lifeline. More rather, your ball and chain. 106,000 signed up period. They needed 500,000.


----------



## Dot Com (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> And who is pushing it?
> 
> Does anyone really believe that the Republicans want to help Americans get good health insurance?



the status quo- 

Medical bills prompt more than 60 percent of U.S. bankruptcies - CNN.com


> Story Highlights
> Study: More than 60 percent of bankruptcies are linked to medical bills
> *Three-quarters of people with a medically-related bankruptcy had health insurance*Researcher: "You're one illness away from financial ruin in this country"
> Situation likely to worsen: study was done a year before recession


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> Bern80 said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



Chief Justice Roberts, writing for the Court, held while the individual mandate is not a valid exercise of Congresss power under the Commerce Clause and the Necessary and Proper Clause, it is valid as an exercise of the taxing power granted the federal government by the Constitution.

Supreme Court Rewrites ObamaCare; Rules Individual Mandate Is Permissible Tax

[ame=http://youtu.be/tQMkOScXctY]Obama in 2009: "Absolutely Not a Tax Increase" - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Edgetho (Nov 15, 2013)

Sallow said:


> Edgetho said:
> 
> 
> > Sallow said:
> ...



You're a lying bitch.

It just doesn't happen like that.  If something like it does, the customer appeals to the Insurance Department, the Agent gets investigated and probably jailed and the Insurance Company gets fined.

You are a lying sack of shit

Got links?  Of course not.

Lying bitch


----------



## Sallow (Nov 15, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...



It's no "conspiracy theory"..that's what happened. Those policies were issued after the law went into effect.


----------



## boilermaker55 (Nov 15, 2013)

Do you seriously think that what we had before ACA as anything perfect, that insurance salesmen were 100% honest. That at the end of the day CEO's of insurance companies were not looking at the bottom dollar.
How do they increase their profits? Explain that to us.





Bern80 said:


> boilermaker55 said:
> 
> 
> > Keep beating the drum about personal responsibilities while citizen united has made if far easier for large companies(corporations) to buy politicians and have the laws moved in their favor.
> ...


----------



## tinydancer (Nov 15, 2013)

Sallow said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...



You're the hog, I am the dog. You are a fucking liar. Why are you doing this Sallow?

You're fucked forever if you keep this up. You will have absolutely no credibility left. And yes I know the where and how you post. 

Fuck you buddy. If you are still backing this bullshit there is no help for you.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Nov 15, 2013)

Sallow said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > Sallow said:
> ...



Can it Sallow. 

You're reiterating Obama's reiteration. It wasn't 'you can keep your plan if you like it, as long as it hasn't changed since the law came into effect'

It was purely and simply 'If you like your plan, you can keep you plan. If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor. Period.'


----------



## Amelia (Nov 15, 2013)

tinydancer said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > LOL ... reading along and still seeing the left implying that Obama lied because Republicans weren't bargaining in good faith.
> ...





I know.  So much money has been spent or committed on this already.  Way more than Democrats will admit -- they're in such denial they keep posting a 2010 breakdown of anticipated costs over and over even though that was quickly shown to be wildly off the mark. 

And it's going to cost so much more to fix this.  

This was so unnecessary.  Democrats fucked up huge.


Part of me is happy to see Obama exposed for the fraud some of us have known him to be for years.  Part of me wakes up depressed every morning when I remember how much damage Democrats deliberately inflicted upon us and how hard it's going to be to fix this.


----------



## rdean (Nov 15, 2013)

oreo said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > And who is pushing it?
> ...



Group together?  Sounds exactly like "exchanges".


----------



## Sallow (Nov 15, 2013)

Edgetho said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> > Edgetho said:
> ...



Links?

Then what?

You say something like "Oh it's the liberal mainstream media".

Anyway your google works, little lady.


----------



## Edgetho (Nov 15, 2013)

Sallow said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > Sallow said:
> ...



No they weren't you lying fuck.

Can somebody ban this asswipe?  All he does is come in here and lie his fucking ass off.

Those policies were cancelled because there were changes made to them.  

Lying fuck


----------



## tinydancer (Nov 15, 2013)

boilermaker55 said:


> Do you seriously think that what we had before ACA as anything perfect, that insurance salesmen were 100% honest. That at the end of the day CEO's of insurance companies were not looking at the bottom dollar.
> How do they increase their profits? Explain that to us.
> 
> 
> ...



You must be the dumbest fuck on the planet if you think ACA aka Obamacare is working.


----------



## JakeStarkey (Nov 15, 2013)

"Americans didn't knowingly vote to be lied to. Some voted for candidates who promised a health insurance remedy which was going to let them keep their doctors and reduce their family's insurance premiums by $2500 a year; others voted for candidates who promised to do their best to keep the worst of Obama's agenda in check. "

And all of them are not willing to go back to the disaster we had.  Now we have to compromise and work together on the debacle we have now.

We are not going back.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Nov 15, 2013)

JakeStarkey said:


> "Americans didn't knowingly vote to be lied to. Some voted for candidates who promised a health insurance remedy which was going to let them keep their doctors and reduce their family's insurance premiums by $2500 a year; others voted for candidates who promised to do their best to keep the worst of Obama's agenda in check. "
> 
> And all of them are not willing to go back to the disaster we had.  Now we have to compromise and work together on the debacle we have now.
> 
> We are not going back.



What disaster was that? The disaster before this disaster? Everywhere you look there's disaster.


----------



## Sallow (Nov 15, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...



Well?

How many people in the US?

Over 200 million right?

5 million displaced?

Do the math.

And Obama didn't seize the HMOs. He had no control over them doing what they did.

Take your own advice..

President Obama didn't get elected, twice, because the majority of Americans liked their healthcare plan.

It was the opposite.

45,000 people dying each year because of lack of healthcare..sucks.

But it's not like you guys actually like Americans..is it?


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

Sallow said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > Sallow said:
> ...



Wait a minute,  you're saying people have been denied healthcare coverage after obamacare went into effect?? 
either you're lying or obamacare is really fucked up.


----------



## Edgetho (Nov 15, 2013)

Sallow said:


> Edgetho said:
> 
> 
> > Sallow said:
> ...



I got links, how's this....

https://www.google.com/search?q=ins...&q=insurance+department+fines+company&start=0

Arizona Department of Insurance Press Releases
Arizona Department of Insurance
Dec 18, 2002, State National Insurance Company Fined $110,000 for Auto ... April 9, 2001, State Insurance Department, Corporation Commission Crack Down  ...
How Insurers Are Hiding Obamacare Benefits From Customers
talkingpointsmemo.com/.../insurance-companies-misleading-letters-obam...*
Nov 4, 2013 - Her insurance company, LifeWise of Washington, told her that they'd .... or in the outside market," Insurance Commissioner Mike Kreidler said in the alert. ... Kentucky fined Louisville-based Humana for sending out letters with  ...
Regulatory Actions Against Companies or Licensees - Pennsylvania
www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt/community/.../538919*
Those that are in the business of insurance must comply with the insurance laws of the commonwealth. Should there be a violation of the laws, the department  ...
2013 Insurance Enforcement Activity - State of New Jersey
The Official Web Site for The State of New Jersey  Home  Insurance Division*
Sanctions: Revocation, Fine - $2,500 and Costs - $150. Orders to Show ... Leland Grossman and Lee Grossman Insurance Agency, Medford, NJ Order #E13-86  ...
N.C. hands down $524K fine to insurance company - Triangle ...
www.bizjournals.com/triangle/blog/.../nc-hands-down-524k-fine-to.html...*
Sep 23, 2013 - Time Insurance Company received a $524,000 fine from the N.C. Department of Insurance after agents sold 1,500 health insurance policies in  ...
Indiana Department of Insurance: Enforcement Actions
www.in.gov  IDOI  Consumer Services  Enforcement*
2010-AG05-0802-040. Access Insurance Agency of Indiana, LLC. Lack of Fitness/ Trustworthiness; No License. 2008-12-15. $1,000 fine. 7257-AG08-1119-282.
DORA Division of Insurance - Department of Regulatory Agencies
Department of Regulatory Agencies
Learn about homeowners, auto, and other types of insurance learn more ... Find out about types of insurance, where to go for assistance, buyer's guides and ...
Financial giant AIG pays $1 million in fines after Missouri ...
insurance.mo.gov  Insurance News  2012*
Jun 18, 2012 - In 2008, every state insurance department in the country began a joint ... States will continue to monitor AIG, and the company could face up to  ...
.biz - Insurance company fined $524,000 | newsobserver.com blogs
blogs.newsobserver.com/business/insurance-company-fined-524000*
Sep 23, 2013 - Tags: .biz. A Wisconsin insurance company has agreed to pay a $524,000 fine following an investigation by the N.C. Department of Insurance.
NYSDFS - Insurance - Department of Financial Services - New York ...
www.dfs.ny.gov/insurance/dfs_insurance.htm*
NY.gov Portal State Agency Listing. NYCRR · NYS Laws. Search all of NY.gov ... Life Insurance Company Guaranty Corporation of New York · New York State of  ...
Ad related to insurance department fines company
Companies Insurance*
Keith Insurance | Fort Myers, FL 33919 | DexKnows.com&#8482;
1 (239) 220 5364
Lee County Insurance Company. Contact Us Today.
map - gallery
Searches related to insurance department fines company
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1	
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
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Next


Want more you lying fuck...??

https://www.google.com/search?q=ins...q=insurance+department+fines+company&start=10

Department of Labor and Workforce Development | Insurance ...
lwd.dol.state.nj.us  ...  Employer/Insurance Carrier Information*
Jump to Penalties for Failure to Insure - In the case of a corporation, liability for failure to insure ... Penalties assessed for failure to insure are not  ...
Division of Insurance - Consumer Protection Services
www.nj.gov/dobi/enfcon.htm*
NJ Department of Banking and Insurance ... who reviews the case to ensure that the insurance company and/or producer ... The Enforcement Unit is responsible for investigating cases of alleged violations of New Jersey's insurance laws.
Vehicle Insurance Requirements | dmv
dmv.dc.gov/page/vehicle-insurance-requirements*
District of Columbia residents, who incur fines for insurance lapse may enter an ... company and file an accident report with the Metropolitan Police Department.
Pennsylvania Insurance Department fines Highmark - Pittsburgh ...
www.post-gazette.com/.../business/.../pennsylvania-insurance-department...*
May 17, 2013 - Pittsburgh's Highmark Inc. has been fined $50000 by the state Insurance Department for minor insurance market violations, following a ...
Insurance Department Recoups Funds For Policyholders, Fines ...
courantblogs.com/...insurance/insurance-department-recoups-funds-for-...*
Nov 20, 2012 - The Connecticut Insurance Department recovered funds for insurance customers and fined insurers for violations for a combined total of about ...
State Recoups $8.7M From Insurance Companies - Hartford Courant

articles.courant.com/.../business/hc-insurance-department-recove...*
by Brian Dowling - in 74 Google+ circles
Jan 31, 2013 - The state Insurance Department recovered $8.7 million from ... year by pursuing complaints from consumers and levying fines, the agency said ...
Mandatory Insurance - CyberDrive Illinois
The Official Website for Illinois Secretary of State Jesse White - www.cyberdriveillinois.com  Departments  Vehicles*
Your insurance company will send you an insurance card, usually when your ... your license plates will be suspended and you will face the following fines:
[PDF]
State Insurance Regulation: History, Purpose and Structure
www.naic.org/documents/consumer_state_reg_brief.pdf*
revocation, and states may exact fines for regulatory violations. In 2000, nearly ... system&#63719;helps states expedite the review process of a new company license.
Getting a driver license: Mandatory insurance - Washington ...
www.dol.wa.gov/driverslicense/insurance.html*
Getting a driver license: Mandatory insurance ... Auto insurance ... without the required coverage is a traffic infraction punishable by a fine of at least $450.
Worst Insurance Companies Deny Claims Raise ... - Get Claim Help
www.getclaimhelp.com/...insurance_companies/insurance-companies-de...*
After an investigation by the Louisiana Insurance Department, Insurance .... that the Securities and Exchange Commission, which had already fined the company  ...

Maybe one more page....  ??

https://www.google.com/search?q=ins...q=insurance+department+fines+company&start=20

2012 Market Conduct Exams - Illinois Department of Insurance
insurance.illinois.gov/newsrls/2013/02/MarketConductExams2012.pdf*
Feb 7, 2013 - announced more than $10.3 million in market conduct fines was ... for the people in Illinois and to ensure that insurance companies are playing  ...
Texas Department of Insurance Working for You
www.tdi.texas.gov/pubs/consumer/cb022.html*
TDI can penalize insurance companies and agents who use unfair trade practices or deceptive advertising by giving warnings, fines, license revocations, and  ...
Humana fined $65430 in connection with 'misleading' insurance letter
www.courier-journal.com/article/20130924/PRIME07/309240089/*
Sep 24, 2013 - The Kentucky Department of Insurance has fined Humana $65430 ... that the company is working in concert with the state Department of  ...
Investigation Division Functions - California Department of Insurance
California Department of Insurance  ...  Investigation Division Overview*
Skip to Content separator Home separator Check License Status separtor Contact .... seizing and closing the business, ordering restitution, fines and penalties.
Humana fined by Kentucky Department of Insurance over letters ...
&#9658;&#9658;
www.whas11.com/.../Humana-fined-by-Kentucky-Dep...
Sep 25, 2013
(WHAS11)-- Humana, a health insurance company, has been fined by Kentucky's Department of Insurance. After complaints, an investigation  ...
Texas Department of Insurance Enforcement Actions for 2012
https://wwwapps.tdi.state.tx.us/inter/asproot/commish/da/clips2012.asp*
Action Taken: Fined $5,000; Non-resident general lines life, accident, and health license ... Lowe, Leonard Paul; Paul Lowe Insurance Agency of Texas, Inc. of  ...
Insurance regulators fine Ohio company over annuity sales ...
www.kansascity.com/2013/09/17/.../insurance-regulators-fine-ohio.html*
Sep 23, 2013 - The Kansas Insurance Department issued a $5,000 fine against Lead Generating Systems LLC and a $4,000 fine against the same company  ...
Surprised? Insurance Companies are Sending Misleading Letters to ...
aattp.org/surprised-insurance-companies-sending-misleading-letters-trap-...*
Nov 4, 2013 - The investigation is ongoing to determine whether or not the company intentionally misled their customers. The insurance department has fined  ...
Ohio Insurance Marketing Firm Fined, Told to Stop Operating in ...
www.insurancejournal.com/news/midwest/2013/09/19/305725.htm*
Sep 19, 2013 - An earlier fine of $4,000 was levied against the same company in March ... The insurance department legal order says the company solicited  ...
State Auto Insurance Group Fined in Standridge Case | Arkansas ...
State Auto Insurance Group Fined in Standridge Case | Arkansas Business News | ArkansasBusiness.com
Sep 23, 2013 - Insurance Commissioner Jay Bradford describes in the eight-page order how State Auto Property & Casualty Insurance Co. and State  ...  Lying cocksucker


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

tinydancer said:


> boilermaker55 said:
> 
> 
> > Do you seriously think that what we had before ACA as anything perfect, that insurance salesmen were 100% honest. That at the end of the day CEO's of insurance companies were not looking at the bottom dollar.
> ...


See the below post


JakeStarkey said:


> "Americans didn't knowingly vote to be lied to. Some voted for candidates who promised a health insurance remedy which was going to let them keep their doctors and reduce their family's insurance premiums by $2500 a year; others voted for candidates who promised to do their best to keep the worst of Obama's agenda in check. "
> 
> And all of them are not willing to go back to the disaster we had.  Now we have to compromise and work together on the debacle we have now.
> 
> We are not going back.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Nov 15, 2013)

Sallow said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > Sallow said:
> ...



5 million is too many, Sallow. YOU do the math. There are 313 million people in America, get your stats right first off. That law has Obama's name on it, so any of its adverse effects are attributed to him. Deal with it. President Obama was elected on the very lies he told, mainly "if you like your plan you can keep your plan, if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor, period."

5 million people and counting losing their insurance sucks, but it's not like you guys give a damn about anyone, is it?


----------



## Contumacious (Nov 15, 2013)

Contumacious said:


> Kosh said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...



Another reminder.

.


----------



## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > Bern80 said:
> ...



Your opinion is duly noted.

The fact that the PPACA was ruled constitutional stands. 

The Obama admin had multiple arguments in the court, not unusual at all, and one of those arguments were what Roberts ruled on....the penalty as a tax.

Roberts did NOT make it up out of thin air as whacky wingnut world would have you believe

True story
:


----------



## tinydancer (Nov 15, 2013)

Amelia said:


> tinydancer said:
> 
> 
> > Amelia said:
> ...



So many factors at work. North of you we understand what the dems were aiming for and said in horror and were freaking out for all these years going "don't do eeeeeeeeeeeeeet".

All bullshit aside on the net, I've been desperately working for a two tier system here in Canada based on France and Sweden. 

Watching you guys just go down the road to this "free healthcare Obama plan" has been surreal. 

It won't work. It hasn't here and Britain's NHS program is a nightmare beyond. 

And watching this play out cripes what can I say to the libs? Told ya so. Hope your conservative brother in law beats the shit out over Obamacare over Thanksgiving.

None of the plans will be better.


----------



## Edgetho (Nov 15, 2013)

tinydancer said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > tinydancer said:
> ...



Switzerland's Health Insurance System is State of The Art.

Look into it.


----------



## Sarah G (Nov 15, 2013)

tinydancer said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> > tinydancer said:
> ...



This is as of yesterday:



> (CNN) -- Here is CNN's latest reporting on how many Americans have enrolled in Obamacare through the federally run website and through state-run programs, and who have signed up for expanded Medicaid coverage:
> 
> HealthCare.gov (36 states)
> 
> ...


----------



## Edgetho (Nov 15, 2013)

Why Switzerland Has the World's Best Health Care System - Forbes


----------



## tinydancer (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



Who gives a shit.?You screwed every one over. Now I like it. I am vengeful. 

I hope democrat families suffer because they believed you liars hook, line and sinker.
Just like one excellent executive crying" I voted for Obama because Obamacare would take care of so man. *I just didn't know I'd have to pay for it*

 freaking loved it. 

You dem families with money...................go pay now.


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## Amelia (Nov 15, 2013)

Sallow said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > Sallow said:
> ...





Obama's reelection was not about healthcare.  Why do you keep pushing that line?  Well, in a small way, it was about healthcare.  There was the "free" birth control and the associated "Republicans are ogres" campaigning.  And there was promise of keeping as many people as possible on public assistance, which people were glad to hear because the recovery was so sluggish that people were afraid to cut the umbilical cord.    And people were lulled by Obama's lies.  You keep saying that people voted for Obama's lies as if that's a good thing and we should respect that and not fight to fix whatever is still possible to fix in the wake of his deliberately inflicted destruction. 

Would he have been reelected if the media had told the truth about O-care?  Would he have been reelected if he hadn't put off the implementation of the most visible parts of O-care until after the election?

Obama was reelected because he had a crazy-good political team which targeted key demographics with highly poll-tested advertising.   When they weren't busy spreading lies about Romney. 

Obama is truly the best campaigner the nation has ever seen.  And the lousiest, most dishonest leader I have ever known.


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## Sarah G (Nov 15, 2013)

Rome wasn't built in a day.  ACA isn't going anywhere so House GOP is going to have to go back to the drawing board if they want to come up with an alternative plan.


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## tinydancer (Nov 15, 2013)

Edgetho said:


> Why Switzerland Has the World's Best Health Care System - Forbes



The Swiss and France have your bang for your buck down big time. I have studied these systems over a decade now trying to push mine into a two tier.

Till my fingers bled.


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## Bern80 (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> Bern80 said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



Lemming is a better definition for you than it is for me. You're the one insisting we all just fall in line. And let's not advance the strawman argument that regulation of business must be all or nothing. This however is regulation of business or the constitutional catch all, regulation of interstate commerce. The commerce isn't between states nor is it regulating existing commerce. It's requiring new commerce.


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## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

Bern80 said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > Disagree: Society should look to healthcare insurance as an entitlement and right for a just society to exist in our modern world.
> ...



Your hyberbolic comment demands to be ignored:

...
 [MENTION=637]Bern80[/MENTION]

Whatever are you arguing about in regards the court ruling?  Your comments make absolutely no sense in the context here. 

The PPACA/Obamacare contains a mandate.

The mandate has a penalty contained that was ruled to function more as a tax.

The PPACA is a law enacted by a duly elected Legislature, signed into law by a duly elected Executive, and ruled 'constitutional' by a duly appointed Court


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## tinydancer (Nov 15, 2013)

Amelia said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...



Media ruled.

Obama is not the source of the "best".

Your media has made this President over Hillary Clinton even in the earliest of moments. Hillary couldn't even compete.

The media gave us Obama. 

The media.


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## tinydancer (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> Bern80 said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



Dante give it up. You are looking like a moron now. I don't want to see that. But hey you keep up this shit. I'll freaking nuke you.


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## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...



The PPACA contains a mandate.

The mandate contains a mechanism called a penalty in the law.

The penalty part of the mandate was ruled to function as a tax, something that was part of the Obama argument before the court.


Get IT yet?


----------



## Amelia (Nov 15, 2013)

Democrats are proud that Obama hoodwinked America.


----------



## tinydancer (Nov 15, 2013)

Dot Com said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > And who is pushing it?
> ...



Oh darlin, you must hurt today. 

You know what, from me up here I would have loved to try to tell you how we failed BUT HOW WE WON on so many battles on health care.

And how we smoked out assholes who tried to use and abuse the system.

BUT NO. You would have none of it. You wanted it your way or the highway with Reid and Pelosi and Obama.


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## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

dblack said:


> Bern80 said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



Really?    be taken care of?  In what sense, what context?

Society advances and tools like you are always demanding we put on the brakes and go forward in reverse.


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## tinydancer (Nov 15, 2013)

Amelia said:


> Democrats are proud that Obama hoodwinked America.



But they never fast forwarded to face their electorate. 

Shows what dumb fucks they are. Whoopsies!


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## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> Bern80 said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



End of story
:


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



Dumb ass I'm not Chief Justice Roberts nor am I obama neither link or the video did I have anything to do with, except posting them. They are not my opinion they are fact.

OBAMACARE mandate was ruled unconstitutional the tax was not. obama said it wasn't a tax.
SHUT THE FUCK UP.


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## tinydancer (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Bern80 said:
> ...



Communists worked so well they felt they had to to go CAPITALIST TO SUCCEED. 

Oh yeah Commie world has rocked you idiot.


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## Bern80 (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> Bern80 said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...



Except that's not proving to be the case for most. Generally if you're young and healthy and can pay you are seeing your rates go up and that's an awful lot of people. And really that's the only way this has even a chance of being sustainable. The young and healthy are going to subsidize the health care of the old and sick.


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## Bern80 (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Bern80 said:
> ...



How are we going in reverse. You were right earlier. This is really about whether health care is a right. The fact is it is not. It is not possible for health care to be a right because it requires theft from others to accomplish.


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## deltex1 (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> billyerock1991 said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...



That's a no brainer...a handful of shit is an alternative to Obabble care...the man is the equivalent of a fart in a tornado.


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## paperview (Nov 15, 2013)

Republicans alternative to Obamacare is almost literally give the rich more health care and watch it trickle down. LOLGOP

The Republican Study Committee has a ?replace? plan. | The Incidental Economist


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## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

Bern80 said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



A right is what society agrees it is. Rights are human constructs. Rights do not exist in the wilds of nature


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## MarcATL (Nov 15, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > Bern80 said:
> ...


Radical, do you have any links to substantiate that BOGUS claim that those plans were good?

If so, please post 'em as soon as possible.

Thanks.



Sallow said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...








*BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
*

Too funny.


----------



## NoTeaPartyPleez (Nov 15, 2013)

deltex1 said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > billyerock1991 said:
> ...



*Hold that thought and let's see if that's what the outcome will be in 9-12 months.  I say heads are going to roll in the WH and they will rein this problem in.  

Reverting back to what I went through with my late spouse, which is very common with people who have what is considered excellent insurance through an Ivy League institution, is not an option.  

In our situation and in millions of others (which is why Michael Moore made "Sicko"), it takes two people to get seriously ill:  

One to actually get sick, 

and the other to do nothing but fight with the insurance company for every fucking claim, getting claims kicked back because of the wrong billing code used by the doc/hospital, and being told by the fucking insurance company that they don't cover THAT drug....they want your doc to describe THIS drug.

...that is NOT AN OPTION.*


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

Senate Democrats Bring Worries Over Obamacare to White House - NationalJournal.com


----------



## JakeStarkey (Nov 15, 2013)

The reactionaries are running around that Americans dislike them more than they disapprove of BHO.

We are not going back to before ACA, folks.


----------



## Edgetho (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> Bern80 said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



You don't know much about our Founding Fathers, do you?

I mean ours.....  Madison, Hamilton, Franklin, Adams.  Not yours, Marx, Hitler, Stalin.

Ours believed strongly in "Natural Rights"

Here's an opportunity to learn something.  I suggest you take advantage


Bill of Rights Institute: Natural Rights | Bill of Rights Institute


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

JakeStarkey said:


> The reactionaries are running around that Americans dislike them more than they disapprove of BHO.
> 
> We are not going back to before ACA, folks.



And why not?


----------



## Politico (Nov 15, 2013)

So thirty pages later and still nothing sigh.


----------



## dblack (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> Bern80 said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



It's not an inalienable right, which is the kind government is limited to protecting. Health care can, if we so choose, be a service government provides. But it makes no logical sense to classify it alongside political rights like freedom of speech, association, etc... Doing so is demagoguery, attempting to trojan it in as a de facto responsibility of government - since there is already widespread agreement that government is supposed to 'protect our rights'. It's just more Orwellian word games to obfuscate an agenda.


----------



## dblack (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > The reactionaries are running around that Americans dislike them more than they disapprove of BHO.
> ...



We might be. We might be moving on to something worse. Hopefully we can avoid either of those.


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## Bern80 (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> Bern80 said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



That has been debated by minds greater mindds than either of ours for centuries. It certainly can not be taken as a statement of fact. Assuming you're right for argument's sake however that means your assertion that you have the right to obligate me to your well being is nor more valid than my contention that you don't. It's merely a matter of how many people you can get to agree with you. Good luck with that.


----------



## NoTeaPartyPleez (Nov 15, 2013)

*You can read the Constitution until you go blind, quote the Founding Fathers until you are hoarse, but the bottom line is that this country is at the bottom, relatively speaking considering that we are still the most powerful country in the world, when it comes to health care.  Period, end of story:*

The World Health Organization's ranking of the world's health systems

Rank       Country

1         France
2         Italy
3         San Marino
4         Andorra
5         Malta
6         Singapore
7         Spain
8         Oman
9         Austria
10        Japan
11        Norway
12        Portugal
13        Monaco
14        Greece
15        Iceland
16        Luxembourg
17        Netherlands
18        United  Kingdom
19        Ireland
20        Switzerland
21        Belgium
22        Colombia
23        Sweden
24        Cyprus
25        Germany
26        Saudi Arabia
27        United  Arab  Emirates
28        Israel
29        Morocco
30        Canada
31        Finland
32        Australia
33        Chile
34        Denmark
35        Dominica
36        Costa Rica
*37        United States of America *

The World Health Organization's ranking of the world's health systems


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## Bern80 (Nov 15, 2013)

JakeStarkey said:


> The reactionaries are running around that Americans dislike them more than they disapprove of BHO.
> 
> We are not going back to before ACA, folks.



But you just said we were going back to the way it was. Which is it?


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

NoTeaPartyPleez said:


> *You can read the Constitution until you go blind, quote the Founding Fathers until you are hoarse, but the bottom line is that this country is at the bottom, relatively speaking considering that we are still the most powerful country in the world, when it comes to health care.  Period, end of story:*
> 
> The World Health Organization's ranking of the world's health systems
> 
> ...



Yes and your point? obamacare has already shown it's not going to make us number 1 when it comes to healthcare.
We are number 1 in buying pills also.
number 1 in doctor visits
number 1 in leading the world in new medical procedures


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## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

[MENTION=36318]Edgetho[/MENTION]





Edgetho said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > Bern80 said:
> ...


The founding fathers?
In actuality Dante knows much more than the average American knows.

"Natural rights" Hmm, the founders believed all sorts of things. The concepts of natural law/natural rights is an interesting one and one that has been discussed at length in other threads. 

You do know the founding fathers are NOT deities? You do know they were extremely fallible and most knew it and commented upon that fact?

One thing, the US Constitution was NOT written by the founding fathers, it was written by the 'framers' --    The constitution that became ours was ratified by a whole nother subset; the ratifiers. Hmm...


looks like you've been spanked and need to go back to class. Now fuck off tweprie


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## Bern80 (Nov 15, 2013)

NoTeaPartyPleez said:


> *You can read the Constitution until you go blind, quote the Founding Fathers until you are hoarse, but the bottom line is that this country is at the bottom, relatively speaking considering that we are still the most powerful country in the world, when it comes to health care.  Period, end of story:*
> 
> Rank       Country
> 
> ...



I was waiting for someone to do this. I love it when people cite this report who clearly never actually looked at how those ranking were established. Here's the quick version;

Those rankings are essentially an average of about half dozen other metrics such as cost per individual, effective delivery, system responsiveness, etc. It so happens the categories that America ranks lowest in are all associated with costs to the individual. For whatever reason, the WHO places premium weighting on what health care costs which is what dragged the U.S. down. In other areas such as outcomes and responsivenss the U.S. is at the very top. And really the cost thing shouldn't surprise anyone. By the WHO rankings the quality of our service is at or near the top and generally speaking, better quality costs more money.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> Edgetho said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



dante talking in third person is a sign that dante is insane


----------



## Contumacious (Nov 15, 2013)

NoTeaPartyPleez said:


> *You can read the Constitution until you go blind, quote the Founding Fathers until you are hoarse, but the bottom line is that this country is at the bottom, relatively speaking considering that we are still the most powerful country in the world, when it comes to health care.  Period, end of story:*
> 
> The World Health Organization's ranking of the world's health systems
> 
> ...




OK dude learn to speak french and "au revoir" to you.

.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > The reactionaries are running around that Americans dislike them more than they disapprove of BHO.
> ...





Because Obama apologists like Jake have too much invested in O to allow the ACA to be rolled back.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> Bern80 said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



Utter horseshit.  According to your theory, there was nothing immoral about slavery because society defined black people as property with no rights.  Also, gays have no right to marry, so why are all you libturds always whining about it?  Gays have all the rights society has decided they are entitled to.

Whenever some goose-stepper says rights are whatever society says, they are trying to justify violating one or more of them.

Your theory is one of the fundamental axioms of fascism.


----------



## Seawytch (Nov 15, 2013)

I don't understand why the party of "fiscal responsibility" isn't proposing Single Payer...



> July 2013: Economist Gerald Friedman, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts, Amherst
> 
> Under the single-payer system created by HR 676 [the Expanded and Improved Medicare for All Act, introduced by Rep. John Conyers Jr., D-Mich.], the U.S. could save an estimated $592 billion annually by slashing the administrative waste associated with the private insurance industry ($476 billion) and reducing pharmaceutical prices to European levels ($116 billion). In 2014, the savings would be enough to cover all 44 million uninsured and upgrade benefits for everyone else.
> 
> Specifically, the savings from a single-payer plan would be more than enough to fund $343 billion in improvements to the health system such as expanded coverage, improved benefits, enhanced reimbursement of providers serving indigent patients, and the elimination of co-payments and deductibles in 2014.



http://www.pnhp.org/facts/single-payer-system-cost


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

Amelia said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > JakeStarkey said:
> ...



If it's a failure wouldn't it be best to scrap it? No matter how bad they stomp their feet and threaten to hold their breath?


----------



## bendog (Nov 15, 2013)

The gop's plan:  I got mine Jack, get your own or eat shite and die.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

Seawytch said:


> I don't understand why the party of "fiscal responsibility" isn't proposing Single Payer...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



single payer would be worse than obamacare mandate fuck you.


----------



## iamwhatiseem (Nov 15, 2013)

oreo said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > And who is pushing it?
> ...



Your honor, I present to you Exhibit A
Someone answers his post; and MarcATL runs and hides as he does in all of his threads.


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

bendog said:


> The gop's plan:  I got mine Jack, get your own or eat shite and die.



There is medicare. so you eat shit.


----------



## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

[MENTION=637]Bern80[/MENTION]





Bern80 said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > Bern80 said:
> ...



That is how democratic republics and representative republics in democracies, operate.

The obvious which appears to have escaped you is the given -- the underlying assumption that we both agreed it was all a matter of what kind of a society we each wanted to live in.

Even the founding fathers and framers debated what obligations future generations had to their words and ideas. Madison wrote that people should NOT look to what the framers meant and thought words meant in the US Constitution, but to look to what those who ratified it thought. After all it is they -- the people of the US as a national body, who gave power and validity to the concept and realization of a constitution to guide us. The framers did NOT have the say on the power/legality of what did and did not become law. They put it to 'the people' for an up or down vote. The people ratified the US Constitution. Not federal officials and not state legislatures -- the people.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Nov 15, 2013)

NoTeaPartyPleez said:


> *You can read the Constitution until you go blind, quote the Founding Fathers until you are hoarse, but the bottom line is that this country is at the bottom, relatively speaking considering that we are still the most powerful country in the world, when it comes to health care.  Period, end of story:*
> 
> The World Health Organization's ranking of the world's health systems
> 
> ...



Out of 190 countries. Top third? Not bad.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 15, 2013)

NoTeaPartyPleez said:


> deltex1 said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...



More horseshit.  I recently incurred a $40,000 bill from the hospital.  The insurance company paid the whole thing, minus my deductible, without a complaint.  You see, my doctor has people on his staff who specialize in processing insurance claims and making sure they get paid.


----------



## iamwhatiseem (Nov 15, 2013)

BWHAHAHAHAHA......we have a thread where the leftist debate team..is..hmmmf...DANTE AND MARCATL....


----------



## Seawytch (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Seawytch said:
> 
> 
> > I don't understand why the party of "fiscal responsibility" isn't proposing Single Payer...
> ...



How? How would simply taking insurance companies out of the equation be worse than insurance companies in the mix? Not that insurance companies would have to go out of business...supplement plans are popular.


----------



## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

bripat9643 said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > Bern80 said:
> ...



Slavery: actually it was not immoral in most societies or in early America. In America and most of western society the concept of slavery became immoral as society expanded it's views on inclusiveness and more.

Gays and other minorities (women included) have rights because American society expanded it's concept of who was a citizen and who was equal as a human being.


Fascism is attractive to people like you. To liberals like me, it is abhorrent. It is why the ACLU defends the rights of the likes of the KKK and a Rush Limbaugh


----------



## Amelia (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Amelia said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...





Can't do it.  Dems are winning the PR fight thanks to "legitimate rape" and "a baby from rape is a gift from God" Republicans, and having won the PR fight they have veto power.  What do the majority gain from admitting they're wrong?  Some gain kudos in their districts but the majority lose the PR battle if they admit to all the lying they did.  So even if we could peel off enough Dems to pass the legislation, we couldn't override a veto.  And Harry Reid wouldn't let it get that far to begin with.  

If we get the White House back in 2016 in some ways that makes it a new game.  But untold damage will be done before then so there's no telling what we will face.

Of course there's a good chance we won't get the White House back considering how full our party still is of people who think it's a good idea to propose anti-abortion legislation they know would get thrown out in the courts if it even passed.  

Economic responsibility has taken backseat to  the culture wars on both sides.


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## bripat9643 (Nov 15, 2013)

NoTeaPartyPleez said:


> *You can read the Constitution until you go blind, quote the Founding Fathers until you are hoarse, but the bottom line is that this country is at the bottom, relatively speaking considering that we are still the most powerful country in the world, when it comes to health care.  Period, end of story:*
> 
> The World Health Organization's ranking of the world's health systems
> 
> ...



Why should anyone accept the WHO's opinion?

A socialist U.N. agency rates heathcare systems according to how socialist they are, and the United States doesn't do very well.

Big surprise there.


----------



## TemplarKormac (Nov 15, 2013)

Seawytch said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > Seawytch said:
> ...



It does no good if the insurance company happens to be your government.


----------



## Seawytch (Nov 15, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> NoTeaPartyPleez said:
> 
> 
> > *You can read the Constitution until you go blind, quote the Founding Fathers until you are hoarse, but the bottom line is that this country is at the bottom, relatively speaking considering that we are still the most powerful country in the world, when it comes to health care.  Period, end of story:*
> ...



For one of the top ten wealthiest nation's it's crap. What if that was our military's rating instead?


----------



## Redfish (Nov 15, 2013)

Seawytch said:


> I don't understand why the party of "fiscal responsibility" isn't proposing Single Payer...
> 
> 
> 
> ...






because the "party of fiscal responsibility" knows that single payer medical care would not be "fiscally responsible"  

Socialistic policies and programs are never fiscally responsible.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> NoTeaPartyPleez said:
> 
> 
> > *You can read the Constitution until you go blind, quote the Founding Fathers until you are hoarse, but the bottom line is that this country is at the bottom, relatively speaking considering that we are still the most powerful country in the world, when it comes to health care.  Period, end of story:*
> ...



We are also #1 in survival rates for all types of cancer, as well as heart disease and other illnesses.  That's the true measure of a healthcare system.


----------



## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

dblack said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > Bern80 said:
> ...



The government ( and society) has NEVER been limited to your narrow opinion of what constitutes a right, inalienable or not.


----------



## Seawytch (Nov 15, 2013)

TemplarKormac said:


> Seawytch said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...



Tell that to Medicare patients.


----------



## bendog (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> bendog said:
> 
> 
> > The gop's plan:  I got mine Jack, get your own or eat shite and die.
> ...



Eat me.


----------



## Redfish (Nov 15, 2013)

Seawytch said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > NoTeaPartyPleez said:
> ...



I did not tally it up,  but I would guess that the USA has more people than all of those countries combined.   

Come on,  san marino???


----------



## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

Bern80 said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > Bern80 said:
> ...



Then inalienable rights are a human construct and not a statement of facts?


 [MENTION=637]Bern80[/MENTION] you progress up the ladder
:


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## Amelia (Nov 15, 2013)

Seawytch said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > Seawytch said:
> ...





Are you ready to have a discussion about  Medicare reimbursement, service availability, and the ramifications of the current arc we are on?


----------



## Redfish (Nov 15, 2013)

Seawytch said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > Seawytch said:
> ...



The best medicare program is medicare advantage which is run by insurance companies.   It provides excellent low cost coverage, saves money for the medicare program, and the insurance companies make a small profit from it.

Under basic medicare you are on the hook for 20% or more of your medical expenses.  Its worse than the "junk" policies that obozo wants cancelled------er, he wanted cancelled before he wanted them saved after he said they would not be cancelled, or something.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> bripat9643 said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



Liberals are fascists, so don't try to pass off that crap on me.

You just didn't get the point.  If rights are whatever society says they are, then what justifies anyone complaining that some law is unjust?  Right now turds like you are whining about gay marriage and healthcare being rights, but you just said that if society hasn't passed a law making them rights, then they aren't rights.  So what have you been whining about for the last 50 years?  You just said that no one had a right to healthcare in 2008 before Obamacare passed, yet you and your ilk were constantly whining that healthcare is a right.  You're still whining that gay marriage is a right even though it isn't legal in most states of the union.

Do you understand what a contradiction is?

Obviously you don't.


----------



## Seawytch (Nov 15, 2013)

Redfish said:


> Seawytch said:
> 
> 
> > I don't understand why the party of "fiscal responsibility" isn't proposing Single Payer...
> ...



I just provide evidence that your statement isn't true. You've provided?


----------



## Redfish (Nov 15, 2013)

Amelia said:


> Seawytch said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...



don't confuse wytchey with facts, they make her little head hurt.


----------



## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

Bern80 said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > Bern80 said:
> ...



Well according to those on your side, the majority is like you, ill-informed and opposed to Obamacare.


----------



## bendog (Nov 15, 2013)

Seawytch said:


> TemplarKormac said:
> 
> 
> > Seawytch said:
> ...



The problem with medicare is that once a patient has supplemental insurance, there's really lilttle incentive to not consume as much as they want, and the providers have to earn on volume because medicare severely limits their profit margins.  But on the other hand, voucher ideas won't work because something like a third of oldsters will have some dementia issue, and market principles depend upon consumer intelligent choice.

With single payor, it might be possible to incourage people to consume less by deductables and co-pays.  However, the govt doesn't operate on profits and loss, so there's no guarantee our politicians will have to tell us we've had enough this year.

The more "radical" conservative approaches were simply do away with employer sponsored, and give each person money.  Don't get sick, you keep the money.


----------



## Katzndogz (Nov 15, 2013)

The tax to fund the health care system is 20%.  The total tax isn't 20%, just health care and it's limited to legal residents only.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



Yeah, we know.  Every time government gives out goodies, the left claims it's a right.  That's why the left's conception of rights is pure horseshit.


----------



## Redfish (Nov 15, 2013)

Seawytch said:


> Redfish said:
> 
> 
> > Seawytch said:
> ...




you post an opinion blog as evidence. 

ask the brits if their NHS is fiscally responsible, ask them if they are happy with the care it provides them.


----------



## Seawytch (Nov 15, 2013)

Redfish said:


> Seawytch said:
> 
> 
> > TemplarKormac said:
> ...



With single payer that hole would be closed. Savings on negotiating drug prices alone would pay for it. 

Again, if you want your stairway elevator or super hearing aid, you can purchase the supplemental plan offered by insurance companies.


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> Bern80 said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



They are better informed than you.  Plus, they are capable of committing logic.


----------



## Redfish (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> Bern80 said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



latest polls show that 65% of americans oppose obamacare.   when I went to school 65% was more than a majority


----------



## Sallow (Nov 15, 2013)

bripat9643 said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > NoTeaPartyPleez said:
> ...



That's probably because more people here get cancer and heart disease than in most parts of the industrialized world.

Our crappy health care system, poor diets and lack of exercise make one of the top countries for..

Obesity and bad health.

And yeah..you folks fight efforts to combat that too.


----------



## Sallow (Nov 15, 2013)

Redfish said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > Bern80 said:
> ...



Which is why Mitt Romney is President.

Oh wait.



(And you should take a look at your numbers. In the oppose ObamaCare camp, the MAJORITY of those folks wanted single payer)


----------



## Edgetho (Nov 15, 2013)

Sallow said:


> bripat9643 said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...



I guess that explains why Oil Sheiks, Heads of State, Multi Billionaires and others who can afford it invariably come here when they have a serious problem.  Including a LOT of Canadians.  Really a lot.  Ask the good folks at the Cleveland and/or Mayo Clinics

For that bad Health Care, right?

You people are so incredibly stupid, it isn't even funny.

We can't talk to you.  You really are just too stupid.


----------



## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

[MENTION=23837]bigrebnc1775[/MENTION]





bigrebnc1775 said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...







4. The majority did not address the serverability question* after concluding that the Individual Mandate was constitutional.*

Justices Scalia, Kennedy, Thomas, and Alito argued that the Individual Mandate and Medicaid expansion are inserverable, and that the entirety of the ACA is therefore unconstitutional. The provisions of the Act, they argue, are "closely interrelated," with the two unconstitutional provisions serving as "pillars." - The Affordable Care Act Cases | The Oyez Project at IIT Chicago-Kent College of Law

Get it yet, loser?


----------



## bripat9643 (Nov 15, 2013)

Sallow said:


> bripat9643 said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...



Wrong.  the survival rate is a percentage measure.  It doesn't matter how may people have the disease.  having far more patients makes our achievement even more impressive.



Sallow said:


> Our crappy health care system, poor diets and lack of exercise make one of the top countries for..
> 
> Obesity and bad health.
> 
> And yeah..you folks fight efforts to combat that too.



It's entirely the result of poor diets and lack of exercise.  The healthcare system does not cause obesity.  The healthcare system isn't the sole determining factor in a the health of a nations population. In fact, it has little to do with your health.  It only patches you up after you become ill.


----------



## Meathead (Nov 15, 2013)

Sallow said:


> Which is why Mitt Romney is President.
> 
> Oh wait.
> 
> ...


Some idiots believed the prez when he said, "Ïf you like your plan you can keep it." america has truly "dumbed down".


----------



## Contumacious (Nov 15, 2013)

Redfish said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > Bern80 said:
> ...



Incorrect.

They can ignore majorities if they have good intentions.......

.


----------



## Edgetho (Nov 15, 2013)

Sallow said:


> Redfish said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



Enjoy it while you can dirtbag.  There are MILLIONS of people out there right now who regret voting for the scumbag-in-chief.

And come November, they're going to do their best to fix that.

dimocraps will be lucky to retain 5 Senate Seats.  

You ain't seen nothing yet.  Wait.

Got your bunker dug yet?  You're gonna need it.  You and the rest of the cockroaches will need somewhere to hide for a few years.


----------



## RandallFlagg (Nov 15, 2013)

Edgetho said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> > Redfish said:
> ...




I couldn't agree more. 5 seats just MIGHT be a stretchbut let the libs go on with their balderdashat least we know where they stand.


----------



## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

[MENTION=42379]Redfish[/MENTION]





Redfish said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > Bern80 said:
> ...


Are you a complete moron? Didn't Dante just say that? WTF are you arguing with yourself for?

And polls change day by day...just ask Sarah Palin, Mitt Romney, KArl Rove, et al


----------



## NoTeaPartyPleez (Nov 15, 2013)

Redfish said:


> Seawytch said:
> 
> 
> > Redfish said:
> ...




The British Are Surprisingly Satisfied With Their Controversial Socialized Health Care System

Read more: British Satisfied With NHS - Business Insider


----------



## NoTeaPartyPleez (Nov 15, 2013)

*
From Gallup:*


----------



## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

Contumacious said:


> Redfish said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



Majority of voters who voted got to vote on Obamacare. Mitt Romney and the Rightwing spin machine ran against it. In safe gerrymandered districts, Republicans won, but in the national election -- uhm, Democrats won. Democratic races won over GOP when tallied as a whole reflecting the majority win President Obama and his healthcare initiative won with


----------



## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

[MENTION=29100]bripat9643[/MENTION]





bripat9643 said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > Bern80 said:
> ...



That is why the founding fathers and the framers (who won the arguments of the day) had so much contempt for the majority.   Think they referred to it as a mob.


----------



## Meathead (Nov 15, 2013)

Obamacare is a classic example of the cure being worse than the disease.


----------



## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

bripat9643 said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > bripat9643 said:
> ...



YOU, were actually trying to make a coherent and credible point?   



*You are waaay too obsessed with gays. just sayin *


----------



## Amelia (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> Contumacious said:
> 
> 
> > Redfish said:
> ...




The majority of voters who voted didn't consider healthcare the most important issue they were voting on.

As to those who voted for Obamacare, what they voted for turned out to be a lie, deliberately told to them by Obama.  

If the harsh realities of Obamacare had been exposed before the legislation had been voted on by Congress, it wouldn't have passed.

If the harsh realities of Obamacare had been exposed before 2012, Obama likely wouldn't have been reelected.


----------



## Sallow (Nov 15, 2013)

Edgetho said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> > Redfish said:
> ...



Sorry little lady.

I don't hide from no one.

I got my ugly mug up in my profile.

You?

Got your armor in your profile.

Who's afraid now, little red riding hood?


----------



## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > Edgetho said:
> ...



sorry Dude-essa, covered under pre-existing condition under Obamacare. Now fuck off.


----------



## RKMBrown (Nov 15, 2013)

Meathead said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> > Which is why Mitt Romney is President.
> ...



And all of Obama's people did keep their plans.  Unions kept their plans, they are exempt.  Government workers kept their plans, they are exempt.  People on medicare kept their plans, they are exempt.  People on medicaid kept their plans, they are exempt.  The folks between medicaid and 90k a year for a family of 4 get "special" treatment in the form of subsidy checks.  

If you are not in one of those groups you must be an evil SOB republican.  It's only 5million cancellations "so far" many millions to come.  The biggest to come next year when this hits large companies that were exempted this year. This does not count the millions who were forced to 30hrs this year by Obama Care and lost their full time status and benefits.


----------



## Amelia (Nov 15, 2013)

And Democrats are  still crowing about how well Obama deceived the electorate.


----------



## Plasmaball (Nov 15, 2013)

Amelia said:


> What is the Republican alternative to lies and fraud and telling people they're too stupid to understand that you're lying to them for their own good?
> 
> I hope it's something much more respectful of both their constituents and the democratic principles of our nation, but if it isn't and if I am made aware of that then I will reject it as strongly as I reject Obamacare.



opening their mouths


----------



## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

Amelia said:


> And Democrats are  still crowing about how well Obama deceived the electorate.



You give the guy w_aaa_y too much credit, as if he has super powers 

Obama has many flaws, just not the ones wingnut nation likes to grab onto


----------



## Warrior102 (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> And who is pushing it?
> 
> Does anyone really believe that the Republicans want to help Americans get good health insurance?



Health Care is a fucking "right" now? 

Go buy your health insurance like the rest of us, nutsack.


----------



## Dot Com (Nov 15, 2013)

heres what the Repubs did about escalating premiums from 2000- 2006 when they had full control of the gubmint:

...


----------



## RandallFlagg (Nov 15, 2013)

Warrior102 said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > And who is pushing it?
> ...




Why&#8230;haven't you heard?? Health care is now a "civil right" just like being "gay" is now a "civil right"&#8230;&#8230;

These pussies  (liberals) never cease to amaze me.

ONCE AGAIN!! YOU WANT A "SOLUTION"???  HERE IT IS:


317 million people in America

360 million spent on a website that doesn't work


Give every American 1 million dollars to go out and buy their own damn policy. Hell&#8230;we actually SAVE several million taxpayer dollars!!


Problem solved.


----------



## regent (Nov 15, 2013)

Warrior102 said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > And who is pushing it?
> ...



If the American people say health care is a right and their representatives vote accordingly, health care is a right.


----------



## dblack (Nov 15, 2013)

Dot Com said:


> heres what the Repubs did about escalating premiums from 2000- 2006 when they had full control of the gubmint:
> 
> ...



Obama and the Democrats have giving us new appreciation for 

...

eh?


----------



## LTCArmyRet (Nov 15, 2013)

regent said:


> Warrior102 said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...



So you are born with a doctor and a nurse in your pocket?  It's not a right when you rely on a service provided by another.


----------



## dblack (Nov 15, 2013)

regent said:


> Warrior102 said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...



If they say it's a rutabaga, is it a rutabaga? A political right is a freedom of action, not a guarantee of a product or service. You're making a simple category error.


----------



## LTCArmyRet (Nov 15, 2013)

NoTeaPartyPleez said:


> Redfish said:
> 
> 
> > Seawytch said:
> ...



So, are you willing to pay the 45% tax rate they pay?  I bet the 47% of americans that don't even pay fed taxes would say no.


----------



## RKMBrown (Nov 15, 2013)

LTCArmyRet said:


> NoTeaPartyPleez said:
> 
> 
> > Redfish said:
> ...



We already pay 45% when you factor state and local, they don't have state and local taxes there.  The moocher class loves Europe every bit as much as it loves the USA.


----------



## LTCArmyRet (Nov 15, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> LTCArmyRet said:
> 
> 
> > NoTeaPartyPleez said:
> ...



I don't pay state or local taxes.  We're talking about a federally funded program, so only federal tax rates apply.  What you and your local and state citizens vote for is another issue.


----------



## RKMBrown (Nov 15, 2013)

LTCArmyRet said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > LTCArmyRet said:
> ...



There's no such thing as federally funded.  The taxpayers fund stuff.  The federalies merely manage the spending and the tax collections.  Further in Europe they also have hidden vat taxes. The total tax is actually around 70% in the UK.


----------



## LTCArmyRet (Nov 15, 2013)

I think our bigger issue is the out of control federal spending which is now over 110% of our GDP.  There are only 9 other countries that have a larger debt compared to their GDP than us.  If we dont' get our spending under control, we won't have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of.


----------



## RKMBrown (Nov 15, 2013)

According to the heritage foundation the UK government takes 39% of GDP, the USA is 26.9%.


----------



## LTCArmyRet (Nov 15, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> LTCArmyRet said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



Potatoe Puhtatoe, really???  I know federally managed funds come from tax payer, I didn't think the money grew on trees.  But oduma does, he'll just print some more, problem solved.  

My point is, it is federal tax revenues that fund the national health care that UK has and dimocrats are clamoring for.


----------



## RKMBrown (Nov 15, 2013)

LTCArmyRet said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > LTCArmyRet said:
> ...



Yes, but the dimocrats already have health care. Medicare, government health care, Medicaid, chips, corporate funded, free clinics, free hospital service... really who doesn't have health care in this country?  Ah... illegal immigrants and people who did not want to pay for it.  These evil scum in the democrat party knew this and knew it was working, thus the reason clinton had to drop it. Instead they had to wait for the next vietnam to get the votes they needed to force a european system on us.  But still they did not have the votes, so they decided to "break" the current system booting tens of millions of Americans off health care and quadrupling the costs to the rest so they could create a real crisis and "save" the day by offering a single payer european system.  Why do they want that?  Because then they effin own us.


----------



## Sallow (Nov 15, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> LTCArmyRet said:
> 
> 
> > NoTeaPartyPleez said:
> ...



True.

I am sure those in the Moocher Class like Jamie Dimon, Donald Trump and Dick Fuld love traveling to Britain on your dime..in first class!


----------



## RKMBrown (Nov 15, 2013)

Sallow said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > LTCArmyRet said:
> ...



If you think those folks are "moocher" class, dude how about sending some of your cash my way?  You can send me a pay pal anytime you want.


----------



## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> According to the heritage foundation...



say no more


----------



## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

LTCArmyRet said:


> I think our bigger issue is the out of control federal spending which is now over 110% of our GDP.  There are only 9 other countries that have a larger debt compared to their GDP than us.  If we dont' get our spending under control, we won't have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of.



As the economy improves, we'll tackle it. Now is not the time. You want punishment, go join a church,


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

Warrior102 said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > And who is pushing it?
> ...



OK I have had to do some soul searching on this rights thing. Everything now can be a right it's just that the government NOW gives those rights, unlike the first 10 in the bill of rights. If the government can give rights they can take them away


----------



## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Warrior102 said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...



If the PEOPLE put forth another constitution, yes. It is by the consent of the governed that our laws have power.

The government doesn't 'give' rights. The first eight rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights are not to be construed to mean....

oh, that's the 9th The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. - 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

---

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. - 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution


----------



## Sallow (Nov 15, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



If you were that rich?

You wouldn't be asking.

Your lobbyist in Washington would already be funneling it to you.

Oh look..there's one now!

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZ-70rQD19M]CSPAN Sep 29 08 Boehner on TARP Bill - YouTube[/ame]

Doesn't that make you weep for joy??


----------



## Geaux4it (Nov 15, 2013)

My insurance was just fine. Now that I have maternity coverage, my rates increased 76% or $168 a month to pay for it. 

-Geaux


----------



## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

Geaux4it said:


> My insurance was just fine. Now that I have maternity coverage, my rates increased 76% or $168 a month to pay for it.
> 
> -Geaux



Only if you keep that plan?  Why do you people only tell part of any story? What are you hiding or ignorant of?


----------



## RKMBrown (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> Geaux4it said:
> 
> 
> > My insurance was just fine. Now that I have maternity coverage, my rates increased 76% or $168 a month to pay for it.
> ...



Why are you a POS? What's the rest of your story?


----------



## Geaux4it (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> Geaux4it said:
> 
> 
> > My insurance was just fine. Now that I have maternity coverage, my rates increased 76% or $168 a month to pay for it.
> ...



Why should I give up my plan? Where do I get an equal plan for less? Is my current Doctor available? How about my local hospital down the street? Where do I go to get this information?

-Geaux


----------



## RKMBrown (Nov 15, 2013)

Sallow said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Sallow said:
> ...



You mean like the funneling Obama's handing out?  No one comes close to giving out American tax payer funds like the democrats.  Those guys are epic.


----------



## rdean (Nov 15, 2013)

What Is The Republican Alternative To ObamaCare

It's always been "Let him die".  The difference is they say it out loud now.


----------



## Geaux4it (Nov 15, 2013)

rdean said:


> What Is The Republican Alternative To ObamaCare
> 
> It's always been "Let him die".  The difference is they say it out loud now.



We don't need an alternative. Wait we do, that is for the losers to get a job and pay for their own health care

-Geaux


----------



## LTCArmyRet (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> LTCArmyRet said:
> 
> 
> > I think our bigger issue is the out of control federal spending which is now over 110% of our GDP.  There are only 9 other countries that have a larger debt compared to their GDP than us.  If we dont' get our spending under control, we won't have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of.
> ...



It doesn't matter if the economy improves or not.  The increase in spending over the last 8 years has got to be reduced.  According to the congressional budget office, we will continue to increase our deficit even after bringing in record level tax revenues the past two years.  NOW IS THE TIME!!


----------



## LTCArmyRet (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> Geaux4it said:
> 
> 
> > My insurance was just fine. Now that I have maternity coverage, my rates increased 76% or $168 a month to pay for it.
> ...



You have got to be the most ignorant fucking oduma sheep I've encountered on these boards!!!


----------



## CrusaderFrank (Nov 15, 2013)

rdean said:


> What Is The Republican Alternative To ObamaCare
> 
> It's always been "Let him die".  The difference is they say it out loud now.



Let ObamaCare die

Progs always lie and say Conservatives want to bring us back to the 1950's, well ObamaCare just brought us back to the Pony Express.

Send in a letter to sign up for ObamaCare

Let ObamaCare die


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> [MENTION=23837]bigrebnc1775[/MENTION]
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Idiot you don't seem to comprehend it. obamacare mandate was ruled UNCONSTITUTIONAL. obamacare as a tax was ruled constitutional that isn't opinion that is fact supported by the media.
Fact number two obama said it wasn't a tax so shut the fuck up.


----------



## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

[MENTION=43831]RKMBrown[/MENTION]





RKMBrown said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > Geaux4it said:
> ...


Dante will admit to being a POS and in return demand you admit to being an old fool upset that the world is moving on without you


----------



## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

Geaux4it said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > Geaux4it said:
> ...



I really don't know and I really don't care. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask you to find the answers yourself.

The truth is out there


----------



## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

[MENTION=44516]LTCArmyRet[/MENTION]





LTCArmyRet said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > LTCArmyRet said:
> ...



What matters is you focus and start on 8 years. You ignore reality. You are positing a partisan piece of shit

You also misread congressional budget office stats.  They are static...they exist in your mind as predictions of a future where nothing changes.  Stop looking at forecasts as future facts.

Dante's style of posting aside, I admit you are an intelligent poster with promise

:


----------



## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

LTCArmyRet said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > Geaux4it said:
> ...


Taking my last reply to you into consideration, this is high praise indeed


----------



## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > [MENTION=23837]bigrebnc1775[/MENTION]
> ...


http://www.usmessageboard.com/healt...-facts-and-history-and-constitutionality.html

You truly are demented.....how about linking and quoting the exact phrase by the majority and/or CJ Roberts that you are claiming exist


It should be simple even for the likes of you

A challenge for the Bull Ring?


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

CrusaderFrank said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> > What Is The Republican Alternative To ObamaCare
> ...



let obamacare play out this is the only way to fix America failure is the only way people will wake up.


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...


I did link it dumb ass


----------



## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...



Link and post a quote


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...


I did dumb ass.


----------



## Trajan (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> And who is pushing it?
> 
> Does anyone really believe that the Republicans want to help Americans get good health insurance?





hows that obamacare going btw? 

nope, we want you all to die.


----------



## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

[MENTION=23837]bigrebnc1775[/MENTION]  was asked to link to and post the quote that supports his opinion, and he links to --  ahem, get this....an opinion piece


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> [MENTION=23837]bigrebnc1775[/MENTION]  was asked to link to and post the quote that supports his opinion, and he links to --  ahem, get this....an opinion piece



An opinion piece? with quoting what justice roberts said. How hard is that to comprehend?

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/11pdf/11-393c3a2.pdf
NATIONAL FEDERATION OF INDEPENDENT 
 BUSINESS v. SEBELIUS 
Opinion of ROBERTS, C. J.


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## dblack (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > [MENTION=23837]bigrebnc1775[/MENTION]  was asked to link to and post the quote that supports his opinion, and he links to --  ahem, get this....an opinion piece
> ...



Strictly speaking, it IS an 'opinion' piece.


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## Michelle420 (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> And who is pushing it?
> 
> Does anyone really believe that the Republicans want to help Americans get good health insurance?



Was it Romneycare?


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

dblack said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



Damn you're right.


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## Vandalshandle (Nov 15, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> And who is pushing it?
> 
> Does anyone really believe that the Republicans want to help Americans get good health insurance?



Here is your answer to your question;

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-BtquTKw78]Johnny Mandel Suicide is painless with lyrics - YouTube[/ame]


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## dblack (Nov 15, 2013)

Vandalshandle said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > And who is pushing it?
> ...



Great song, by the way.


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## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

dblack said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



And the opinion is vehemently opposed to CJ Roberts' ruling.  Except Roberts gets to.say what is constitutional and have it be law, whereas goofball reb and his opinion piece are lime an asshole...everyone has one


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## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > [MENTION=23837]bigrebnc1775[/MENTION]
> ...




The SCOTUS ruled the PPACA constitutional. The mandate was ruled constitutional. 

You have refused to link to any part of the ruling that says the mandate is unconstitutional because it is rightwing world myth


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## dblack (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...



Silly Dante.... trying to post.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...



for the second time
http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/11pdf/11-393c3a2.pdf
What the fuck is this you ignorant bastard?


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## JakeStarkey (Nov 15, 2013)

Roberts is the authority and bigrebnc the crybaby.

Let's move on.


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## dblack (Nov 15, 2013)

JakeStarkey said:


> Roberts is the authority and bigrebnc the crybaby.
> 
> Let's move on.



Good idea.... move along.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

JakeStarkey said:


> Roberts is the authority and bigrebnc the crybaby.
> 
> Let's move on.



And here we go joke commenting on something that he actually has no knowledge of. Do you know exactly what was being discussed between dumb ass and me? if not keep your fucking opinions to yourself.


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## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



The government's lawyer argued a multipronged defense of the mandate.

 A majority, including CJ Roberts, ruled the Individual Mandate ...get it yet...was not a valid exercise of the Congress' power to regulate commerce. And a majority of the court ruled the Individual Mandate  penalty is a tax and is a valid exercise of Congressional authority under the taxing and spending clause.

So the government's argument that the Individual Mandate is constitutional won.

That is the ruling:  Obamacare, the mandate, and the penalty/tax is constitutional. 

Now some Justices disagreed, but they are in the minority. The mandate was ruled constitutional.

   damn wingnuts! Alternate reality!   

note:  and some people wonder why I so enjoy usmb


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## RKMBrown (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> [MENTION=43831]RKMBrown[/MENTION]
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Old fool.. ayup.  Moving on without me... yeah that happens. Upset... sometimes.  

What a miserable pair of opponents we will make


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



Will someone explain it to the stupid bastard what Justice Roberts said. The mandate is not constitutional what part f that is so hard for you to comprehend. I posted two link that supported what I said. you are a failure for your cause.


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## dblack (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...



Bah ... no point. Dante/Starkey is poo flung against the wall. Sometimes it makes interesting patterns. That is all.


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## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > [MENTION=43831]RKMBrown[/MENTION]
> ...



I sing the blues from the heart


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## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...



Fool, like CNN and FOX News, you need to learn to read his full statement.  Robetts ruled the mandate constitutional.  

Gawd, you're an imbecilc bore


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## dblack (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



Have another drink Dante.


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## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

dblack said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



 [MENTION=30065]dblack[/MENTION]  challenge: publicly say you agree with retardreb that CJ Roberts ruled the Individual Mandate as unconstitutional


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## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

Wingnuts are stuck focusing on comments and arguments over the validity of the legal arguments regarding the constitutionality of the Individual Mandate as oppossed to the ruling itself  

There were multiple arguments. Some were considered invalid, some were ruled valid. But the mandate itself was ruled constitutional.

Frigging wingnut world is too fucking funny


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## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

Get IT yet girls?


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...



stop swimming in the river of denial you wanted the source and I posted it.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> Wingnuts are stuck focusing on comments and arguments over the validity of the legal arguments regarding the constitutionality of the Individual Mandate as oppossed to the ruling itself
> 
> There were multiple arguments. Some were considered invalid, some were ruled valid. But the mandate itself was ruled constitutional.
> 
> Frigging wingnut world is too fucking funny


idiot go back to your village they miss you.


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## RKMBrown (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> Wingnuts are stuck focusing on comments and arguments over the validity of the legal arguments regarding the constitutionality of the Individual Mandate as oppossed to the ruling itself
> 
> There were multiple arguments. Some were considered invalid, some were ruled valid. But the mandate itself was ruled constitutional.
> 
> Frigging wingnut world is too fucking funny



Sigh.  Sometimes I wish I could just slap Roberts.  But he ruled correctly. I hate that he did that.


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## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



You refused (because it doesn't exist) to post quoted text from Roberts' ruling that supports your absurd notion that the Individual Mandate was ruled unconstitutional.



You're demented


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## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > Wingnuts are stuck focusing on comments and arguments over the validity of the legal arguments regarding the constitutionality of the Individual Mandate as oppossed to the ruling itself
> ...



Roberts has stated publicly how much he admires CJ Marshall. He is in a league with Marshall...no small feat


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



you're an ignorant bastard I posted two links move on dumb ass.


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## dblack (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...



Silly Dante. You don't challenge me.


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## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...





Your link(s) disagree with Roberts.

Post a quote from the ruling that supports your inane position. You won't because you can't. It doesn't exist outside of tbe Rightwing Noise Machine Circle Jerk Chamber


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## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

dblack said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



You side with the argument of Dante or retardreb?


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## dblack (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



Dante, I'm sorry, but I can't take you seriously. Feel free to return the 'favor'.


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## RKMBrown (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



I'd give my left nut if the rest of the justices were to be as married to the Constitution, over their own personal bias, as he.


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## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

dblack said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



 [MENTION=30065]dblack[/MENTION] refuses to refute Dante on this one because he knows Dante is correct.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



A person who communicates in third person calling me retard? 
When a person talks in third person shows a sign of insanity 
So the retarded blather that you speak is just that retarded


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



page 9
http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/11pdf/11-393c3a2.pdf


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## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



The thing I like most about Roberts so far is he hasn't made bizzare comments as Kennedy, Scalia and a few others that would expose him as an out of touch elitist and academic. 

Some of the Justices have said things about the world and people in it that just spin my head. They have lived such shelterd and compartmentalized lives it is amazing they can relate to anything the average American experiences


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## RKMBrown (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



Or he's hinting that he might be both Dante and retardreb... just sayin, there are useful reasons for 3rd party speech. One might think, no?


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## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



Conservative Republican standard bearer and party nominee Bob Dole

nuf said


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > Wingnuts are stuck focusing on comments and arguments over the validity of the legal arguments regarding the constitutionality of the Individual Mandate as oppossed to the ruling itself
> ...



I'll agree on the tax part which was how obamacare was ruled constitutional.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



Bob Dole a conservative? Surely you jest.
And before you say it newt isn't a conservative either nor is Romney


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## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...



SHAME!  

Still afraid to post a full context quote? Of course that would expose you as the fraud and imbecile you truly are

Loser


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## dblack (Nov 15, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > Wingnuts are stuck focusing on comments and arguments over the validity of the legal arguments regarding the constitutionality of the Individual Mandate as oppossed to the ruling itself
> ...



I don't agree. He endorsed discriminatory taxation, a clear violation of equal protection.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



no usually it's a sign of insanity


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## RKMBrown (Nov 15, 2013)

dblack said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



Everything about our income taxes is discriminatory.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



I can't post from the link because the link doesn't allow are you to fucking lazy to click on the link? hows that for a fail on your part?


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## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...


Geesh, can you really be this dense?

You are confusing rulings on the validity of arguments with the ruling on the case before the court?  

The "share responsibilty payment" in the Individual Mandate is codified as a penalty. Roberts ruled the penalty 'functions' asa  tax for the purposes of constitutional argument. CJ Roberts did NOT change the wording of the law. 

The 'shared responsibilty payment' was ruled constitutional under the Constitutions tax and spend clause


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## Dante (Nov 15, 2013)

dblack said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...


An argument with no merit

Next


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 15, 2013)

Dante said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...


Dense is when someone post a link that refutes what the other person says and that person continues to argue about it.
Page 9
http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/11pdf/11-393c3a2.pdf


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## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...



Quote: "The Government advances two theories for the proposition  that Congress had constitutional authority to enact the individual mandate. First the Government argues that Congress had the power to enact the mandate under the Commerce Clause...Second, the Government argues that if the commerce power does not support the mandate, we should nontheless uphold it as an exercise of Congress' power to tax. According to the Government, even if Congress lacks the power to direct individuals to buy insurance, the only effect of the individual mandate is to raise taxes on those who do not do so, and thus the law may be upheld as a tax."


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



That's a Quote from what?


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

Quote Having held the individual mandate to be unconstitutional, the majority examined whether that provision could be severed from the remainder of the Act. The  majority determined that, contrary to the District Courts view, it could. The court thus struck down only the individual mandate, leaving the Acts other provisions intact.


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## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

> The Governments tax power argument asks us to view the statute differently than we did in considering its commerce power theory. In making its Commerce Clause argument, the Government defended the mandate as a regulation requiring individuals to purchase health insurance. The Government does not claim that the taxing power allows Congress to issue such a command. Instead, the Government asks us to read the mandate not as ordering individuals to buy insurance, but rather as imposing a tax on those who do not buy that product.
> 
> The text of a statute can sometimes have more than one possible meaning. To take a familiar example, a law that reads no vehicles in the park might, or might not, ban bicycles in the park. And it is well established that if a statute has two possible meanings, one of which violates the Constitution, courts should adopt the meaning that does not do so. Justice Story said that 180 years ago: No court ought, unless the terms of an act rendered it unavoidable, to give a construction to it which should involve a violation, however unintentional, of the constitution. Parsons v. Bedford, 3 Pet. 433, 448449 (1830). Justice Holmes made the same point a century later: [T]he rule is settled that as between two possible interpretations of a statute, by one of which it would be unconstitutional and by the other valid, our plain duty is to adopt that which will save the Act. Blodgett v. Holden, 275 U. S. 142, 148 (1927) (concurring opinion).
> 
> ...


 http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/11pdf/11-393c3a2.pdf

,..,,.


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## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Quote Having held the individual mandate to be unconstitutional, the majority examined whether that provision could be severed from the remainder of the Act. The  majority determined that, contrary to the District Courts view, it could. The court thus struck down only the individual mandate, leaving the Acts other provisions intact.



"The District Court determined that the individual mandate could not be severed from the remainder of the Act, and therefore struck down the Act in its entirety."

"Judge Marcus dissented, reasoning that the individual mandate regulates economic activity that has a cleareffect on interstate commerce." "Having held the individual mandate to be unconstitutional, the majority examined whether that provision could be severed from the remainder of the Act. The majority determined that, contrary to the District Courts view, it could. The court thus struck down only the individual mandate, leaving the Acts other provisions intact."

*Ahem, what court?*


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


> > The Governments tax power argument asks us to view the statute differently than we did in considering its commerce power theory. In making its Commerce Clause argument, the Government defended the mandate as a regulation requiring individuals to purchase health insurance. The Government does not claim that the taxing power allows Congress to issue such a command. Instead, the Government asks us to read the mandate not as ordering individuals to buy insurance, but rather as imposing a tax on those who do not buy that product.
> >
> > The text of a statute can sometimes have more than one possible meaning. To take a familiar example, a law that reads no vehicles in the park might, or might not, ban bicycles in the park. And it is well established that if a statute has two possible meanings, one of which violates the Constitution, courts should adopt the meaning that does not do so. Justice Story said that 180 years ago: No court ought, unless the terms of an act rendered it unavoidable, to give a construction to it which should involve a violation, however unintentional, of the constitution. Parsons v. Bedford, 3 Pet. 433, 448449 (1830). Justice Holmes made the same point a century later: [T]he rule is settled that as between two possible interpretations of a statute, by one of which it would be unconstitutional and by the other valid, our plain duty is to adopt that which will save the Act. Blodgett v. Holden, 275 U. S. 142, 148 (1927) (concurring opinion).
> >
> ...



one more time

* Having held the individual mandate to be unconstitutional,* the majority examined whether that provision could be severed from the remainder of the Act. The majority determined that, contrary to the District Courts view, it could. The court thus struck down only the individual mandate, leaving the Acts other provisions intact.


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## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

Folks, the Supreme Court never ruled the Individual Mandate unconstitutional. 


true story


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## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > > The Government&#8217;s tax power argument asks us to view the statute differently than we did in considering its commerce power theory. In making its Commerce Clause argument, the Government defended the mandate as a regulation requiring individuals to purchase health insurance. The Government does not claim that the taxing power allows Congress to issue such a command. Instead, the Government asks us to read the mandate not as ordering individuals to buy insurance, but rather as imposing a tax on those who do not buy that product.
> ...



Ahem, what court?

Gawd, I love usmb, wingnuts and internet search engines


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > Quote Having held the individual mandate to be unconstitutional, the majority examined whether that provision could be severed from the remainder of the Act. The  majority determined that, contrary to the District Court&#8217;s view, it could. The court thus struck down only the individual mandate, leaving the Act&#8217;s other provisions intact.
> ...



Part due

Having held the individual mandate to be unconstitutional, the majority examined whether that provision could be severed from the remainder of the Act. The majority determined that, contrary to the District Court&#8217;s view, it could. *The court thus struck down only the individual mandate, leaving the Act&#8217;s other provisions intact.*


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## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

[MENTION=20450]MarcATL[/MENTION]

*
Published June 28, 2012
FoxNews.com
Facebook0 Twitter450 LinkedIn96

The Supreme Court on Thursday upheld nearly all of President Obama's health care overhaul, in a landmark ruling that will have sweeping consequences for the economy, the election and America's health care system. 

In a 5-4 decision, the court ruled as constitutional the so-called individual mandate requiring most Americans to obtain health insurance starting in 2014*

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/06/28/supreme-court-upholds-individual-mandate-obamacare-survives/


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## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

poor [MENTION=23837]bigrebnc1775[/MENTION]  lost in cyberspace


Danger, danger Will Robinson


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## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

Go away reb, go away!


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


> [MENTION=20450]MarcATL[/MENTION]
> 
> *
> Published June 28, 2012
> ...



Dumbass doesn't read his own link

The ruling relied on a technical explanation of how the individual mandate could be categorized. Roberts, in the opinion, said the mandate could not be upheld under the Constitution's Commerce Clause.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


> Go away reb, go away!


why does my causing you to fail give you that butt hurt feeling?


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


> poor [MENTION=23837]bigrebnc1775[/MENTION]  lost in cyberspace
> 
> 
> Danger, danger Will Robinson


You don't comprehend well do you?
The mandate was ruled unconstitutional because of the tax verbiage with in the law it was ruled a tax.
How hard is that too understand?


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## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > [MENTION=20450]MarcATL[/MENTION]
> ...


 reading and comprehension is seriously lacking in NC.. 
*
Roberts ruled the Individual Mandate constitutional. Even FOX News eventually reported that fact*


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...


I just quoted what was in the link the Commerce Clause was the argument used for the mandate.


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## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > poor [MENTION=23837]bigrebnc1775[/MENTION]  lost in cyberspace
> ...



The Supreme Court never ruled the mandate was unconstitutional. even FOX News agrees.  


Disagreeing with one of two theories was not a judgment/ruling on the mandate's constitutionality

"The Government advances two theories for the proposition that Congress had constitutional authority to enact the individual mandate. First the Government argues that Congress had the power to enact the mandate under the Commerce Clause...Second, the Government argues that if the commerce power does not support the mandate, we should nontheless uphold it as an exercise of Congress' power to tax. According to the Government, even if Congress lacks the power to direct individuals to buy insurance, the only effect of the individual mandate is to raise taxes on those who do not do so, and thus the law may be upheld as a tax."


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## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...



Nope. There you go again:


"The Government advances two theories for the proposition that Congress had constitutional authority to enact the individual mandate. First the Government argues that Congress had the power to enact the mandate under the Commerce Clause...Second, the Government argues that if the commerce power does not support the mandate, we should nontheless uphold it as an exercise of Congress' power to tax. According to the Government, even if Congress lacks the power to direct individuals to buy insurance, the only effect of the individual mandate is to raise taxes on those who do not do so, and thus the law may be upheld as a tax."


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



Yes it did rule it unconstitutional the Commerce Clause was the argument used for the mandate. and Justice Roberts said: the mandate could not be upheld under the Constitution's Commerce Clause.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



there you go again not comprehending what is in the link you posted. I even quoted part of it.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

dante go fail fail


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## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...


  was not THE argument


and earlier you were confusing an appeals court ruling with that of the scotus


go to bed big guy. 

quote from Roberts' ruling: "The Government advances two theories for the proposition that Congress had constitutional authority to enact the individual mandate. First the Government argues that Congress had the power to enact the mandate under the Commerce Clause...Second, the Government argues that if the commerce power does not support the mandate, we should nontheless uphold it as an exercise of Congress' power to tax. According to the Government, even if Congress lacks the power to direct individuals to buy insurance, the only effect of the individual mandate is to raise taxes on those who do not do so, and thus the law may be upheld as a tax."


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## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...



Fool. Roberts was saying one of two theories. That is not saying the mandate is unconstitutional, only that one argument was invalid. Part of a government case being made. The other argument advanced by the government was upheld to be valid. 

The validity of the argument was enough to rule the mandate constitutional.

You are typical of rightwing Tea Party America?


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



The  Commerce Clause was most defiantly used as an argument for the mandate.
from your link you posted.
Roberts, in the opinion, said the mandate could not be upheld under the Constitution's Commerce Clause.


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## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 bigrebnc1775
Constitutional Watchdog


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...


This is not a theory that you speak of


> Roberts, in the opinion, said the mandate could not be upheld under the Constitution's Commerce Clause.



If you don't like what is in a link don't use it. stop cherry picking your own link.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


> bigrebnc1775 bigrebnc1775
> Constitutional Watchdog


I'm making a fool out of you or am I just showing how foolish you are? Yep that's it, I'm showing how foolish you are.


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## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...



Dope.

and that argument was ruled invalid...the argument was. the second argument was ruled valid.  Nowhere did the validity of the first argument cause the mandate to be constitutional or unconstitutional. The case was decided on the second argument, not on the first one. Decided. Get  IT yet? 


goodnight

you now having bragging rights on being super spanked by Dante


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



the madate argument was ruled invalid obamacare would be dead if the mandate was the only thing foir obamacare. It was the tax part that allowed obamcare to be constitutional and anytime you want you ass kick again come on back fail boy part 3.0


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## RKMBrown (Nov 16, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Dante said:
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Negative ghost rider. The tax in Obama care is constitutional.  That has nothing to do with the any of the other issues that are, in fact, coming to a theater near you.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
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I never said the tax was unconstitutional nor have I argued that, now did I? I said the mandate was unconstitutional.


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## paperview (Nov 16, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


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Holy fuck.  You really are that stupid.

*The mandate is upheld as being constitutional under the government's power to tax.*


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## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Dante said:
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wtf are you drinking?  The mandate has something called the "shared responsibility payment" which Congress labelled a penalty. 

The two arguments proposed by the Government were ruled valid or invalid. Neither of those two were a "mandate"  argument. 

North Carolina produces some truly dumb fucks


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## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

paperview said:


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Yup.  Red state America


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## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


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Truly amazing


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## billyerock1991 (Nov 16, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


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obama didn't push for the mandate ... the congress that wrote the bill required everybody to sign up to make it work dumb fuck ... it was you republicans who don't like to pay for their debts who are now forced to sigh up and be accountable for their debts ... like I said read the god damn bill or remain a dumb fuck


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## billyerock1991 (Nov 16, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Sallow said:
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you're one stupid person with vile accusations about health ... people who are sick are sick because of these plans that have low coverage with high deductible ... when they need it the most it was canceled or the cost went up ....causing these people not to be able to take care of them selves... now we're at the point that we need to take care of the mess your types made with your low coverage with high deductible the money that you paid into medicare for you who worked all your life isn't bilking the young, you moron its putting money in for the next generation who retire who put their momney in for the previous generation who retired... the only person who is being bilked here is you when you were getting a brain...


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## billyerock1991 (Nov 16, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


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I see when confronted with the facts you haven't a leg to stand on... who wrote the law of the land ??? the house did ... who said that everybody has to be covered to make it work??? the house did ... the fact that you call the ACA bill obama care is you being ignorant ... Obama just agreed with the bill that the house wrote ... that's why he sign it to stop your greedy republican donors from raping the amercan health care system ...  you can't stand that thought ... the reason you don't like it you have to now be held responsible for your health ... now you can't rack up huge debt to the hospitals ... and leave them holding the bag ... tha'ts what pisses dumb fucks like you off


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## billyerock1991 (Nov 16, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


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from the looks of your post it appears you have read the bill in any way .. it appears all you have is right wing yammering talking points ... based on nothing that has a once of facts to it ...

premiums are based on your income period... it appears you have gone to the web site ... if you couldn't get through, you can thank your republican governor for that ... the one failing that the house didn't do in this plan was make all states to set up the system ... instead they offered a out to the states ... big mistake there .... if they hadn't done that we wouldn't have these sign up problems ... the state I live in had no problems at all ... that's because the dems run my state ... they were ready for the people to either call in or go through the  web site ... I call in October 1,  got my denial of Medicaid ...  you have to get that taken care of first to determine what you do before you go any further ... I got that all taken care of the first day... after you have sign up you call in and discuss the plans you want ...I did that in 48 hour after I sign up ... they require you  to waite 48 hours to check you out  ... 

this huge premium you speak of are insurers who canceled your low cost high deductible insurance then sent you your new cost ... that cost has nothing to do with OCA ... you have to either calling in to OCA or go through the web to find out what you will really pay and I found out it will cost me 300 less then what I'm paying now ... I can't help you with your stupidity, if you can't make a simple phone call or use the web ... like all of you republicans you don't know what you're talking about ...


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## billyerock1991 (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


> bigrebnc1775 bigrebnc1775
> Constitutional Watchdog



oh he hates to be laughed at ... but damn he says the dumbest shit ... that all you can do is laugh at him


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## billyerock1991 (Nov 16, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


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BWA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !!!!!! Now thats funny ...you making a fool out of anyone is laughable at best ... down right funny...


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## Politico (Nov 16, 2013)

You owe me a keyboard.


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## billyerock1991 (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


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bigrebnc1775 just doesn't know when his been kick all over the board ... I guess he like to get spanked ... WAP!!! WAP!! WAP


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## Meathead (Nov 16, 2013)

billyerock1991 said:


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Write in English ffs! Even US public education isn't an excuse for such sloppiness.


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## billyerock1991 (Nov 16, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


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 that's were you went wrong ... you spoke.... you see the mandate was constitutional and you're trying your best to make it be unconstitutional ... it wasn't then, the Supreme court said it was ... its now time for you to man up !!!! man up ... pay up!!!


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## billyerock1991 (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
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I think he likes getting spanked  or a good beat down ... so far that's all he has happen to him today


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## billyerock1991 (Nov 16, 2013)

Meathead said:


> billyerock1991 said:
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go fuck yourself


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

billyerock1991 said:


> Meathead said:
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I ran the bitch off just like I will you I'm just that much of a son of a bitch\, when your wrong you are wrong and I will always point that out about you and dante.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


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Hey dumb ass when did I say that obamacare was as a tax was unconstitutional? Now you are making shit up.

obamacare as a tax according to the supreme court is constitutional but as a mandate alone is not.


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## Geaux4it (Nov 16, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


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Indeed- They are siamese Obama drones  

-Geaux


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## Redfish (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


> [MENTION=29100]bripat9643[/MENTION]
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So you favor minority rule??????????   WTF are you trying to say?


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## RKMBrown (Nov 16, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


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So basically you are arguing that if Obama care mandated that we buy insurance it would be unconstitutional, but since it did not mandate that we buy insurance it is constitutional. This of course is your opinion as the SCOTUS did not rule on that, because it does not include said mandate.  However, it does include a fine/fee/tax or whatever you want to call that revenue shit the IRS collects from worker's income.  Thus your argument amounts to nothing more than mental masturbation, since as we all know it was always a tax.  Oddly a tax taken in the form of fine/penalty when you file and only if you have a rebate and did not buy insurance (rumors say).  I'll wait to see it the tax forms before I'll believe much on this matter.


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## Meister (Nov 16, 2013)

billyerock1991 said:


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Strange, from what I've been reading, Bigreb has been spot on and you and "the dante" have been getting bitch slapped with the facts.  Just an observation.....


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## RKMBrown (Nov 16, 2013)

Meister said:


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Really?  Did the SCOTUS change it's mind on the OCA mandate?  I thought they ruled constitutional.  I think you guys might be confused by how legal folk define terms.  For example, if I say the OCA mandate is a tax.  Then I say taxes are constitutional.  What I'm saying is the mandate, which is a tax, is constitutional.  (note mandate as a noun here.) It does not matter than we might think of a mandate in different terms, the thing that matters is the legal definition provided for the mandate, in this case that of a tax.  That does not mean OCA can mandate that we buy insurance.  (note using mandate as a verb here).


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## Meister (Nov 16, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Meister said:
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Roberts legislated from the bench that it wasn't a mandate, but in fact, it was a tax.
If I remember correctly that if it had remained a mandate that the vote was 7-2 against it.


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## Trajan (Nov 16, 2013)

Meister said:


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yup, he argued it was the very thing obama adamantly refused  to call it..


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=bg-ofjXrXio#t=0]George and Obama debate health care taxes - YouTube[/ame]


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
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both links that I posted from the actual supreme court.gov link and the other one stated the mandate was unconstitutional, but the tax was not. The Commerce clause was the argument for the mandate and it was struck down. It's still constitutional because it's a tax something obama argued that it was not.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

Let's try our best to not rewrite history and what was actually ruled on.


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## RKMBrown (Nov 16, 2013)

Meister said:


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Near as I can tell, though they called it a mandate, it never mandated anything.  Thus, was a mandate in name only.  It was and is clearly a tax.  No different than the rest of income taxes, where the government picks and chooses what to exempt from tax and when to double down on tax to punish us for the sins of liberty.  If it were a "true" mandate, in so far as we had to buy private insurance, then we might have had a chance to throw it out on that issue.  However, instead we'll have to fight one of the hundreds of other issues in OCA.


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## paperview (Nov 16, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Meister said:
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Well said.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Meister said:
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Once again the commerce clause argument for the mandate was struck down as unconstitutional. please read the whole link. from the supreme court link I posted.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

paperview said:


> RKMBrown said:
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Maybe so but he's still wrong on the mandate part.


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## paperview (Nov 16, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> paperview said:
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No he's not.

You're just playing word salad games.


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## RKMBrown (Nov 16, 2013)

Trajan said:


> Meister said:
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Yeah they are trying to spin an optional tax as not a tax because you can buy your insurance and avoid the fine, this in the face of all the mandatory hidden taxes included in OCA.


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## Stephanie (Nov 16, 2013)

Too bad for you Democrats and Obama, Republicans don't now NEED an alternative for Ofailnocare

they rammed this, you have to PASS it to see what's in it without Republican...now we plan on ramming it down your political throats until elections

it sucks for you Democrat sheep..but Karma is a bitch sometimes


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

paperview said:


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Yes he is very much wrong.
What was the argument for the mandate?
Wasn't it the commerce clause?
If so that was struck down.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Trajan said:
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I see the confusion here. because it's ruled a tax it still a mandate. however the mandate to buy something goes beyond the authority of the federal government paraphrased of what Roberts said of course.


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## RKMBrown (Nov 16, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


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I read briefs for a living.  I've already been through this case in detail, for fun.  Yes the argument for using the commerce clause to defend basis for the OCA mandate was not affirmed.  So what?  The argument that won the case was that the OCA mandate is not a mandate, it's a tax.  IOW the government used an incorrect term to describe the law.  Apparently it's not UN-consitutional to be a piss poor writer / deceiver when writing new tax bills / laws in DC.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


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So what? So what? dude please, the government cannot compel anyone to buy something they used the commerce clause it was struck down. But because of the tax hidden within the law obamacare remains constitutional. In other words you don't have to buy insurance, but you'll pay a penalty/  tax if you don't.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

Now let's address one more thing. taxes originate from the house where did the ACA AS A BILL ORIGINATE FROM?


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## RKMBrown (Nov 16, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> RKMBrown said:
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Correct.  They did not rule the feds can mandate we buy private insurance. They merely ruled that the feds can tax us for the mere cause of not having insurance. More specifically they can tax us for any reason they want to tax us for.  If we don't like that we might want to change this amendment to the Constitution: "The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration."  (Amendment XVI.)


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


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OK there is one more thing that must be address. Where do taxes originate from? The house or the senate?


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## RKMBrown (Nov 16, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Now let's address one more thing. taxes originate from the house where did the ACA AS A BILL ORIGINATE FROM?



Does not matter, the house voted in approval. The house could have used their power to block it and did not.  Election results matter. Next time some party promises to change everything about your country, maybe we can get the vote out?


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > Now let's address one more thing. taxes originate from the house where did the ACA AS A BILL ORIGINATE FROM?
> ...


actually no, the ACA tax originated from the senate. and it does matter


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## paperview (Nov 16, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


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Much as I dislike Harry Reid, he knows how the law works, and Michelle Bachmann's stupid talking point has been discussed to death.

The Senate amended a benefits  bill that originated in the House  to create the ACA. 

It went to conference as a totally unrelated bill and Senate Dems   rewrote it as Obamacare, passed it via budget  reconciliation, and sent it &#8220;back&#8221; to the house.



> *Senate*
> 
> The Senate began work on its own proposals while the House was still working on the Affordable Health Care for America Act. Instead, the Senate took up H.R. 3590, a bill regarding housing tax breaks for service members.[88] As the United States Constitution requires all revenue-related bills to originate in the House,[89] the Senate took up this bill since it was first passed by the House as a revenue-related modification to the Internal Revenue Code.  The bill was then used as the Senate's vehicle for their healthcare  reform proposal, completely revising the content of the bill


Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## RKMBrown (Nov 16, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


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Traditionally the house manages the purse. However, if the house votes on amendments to a bill originating from the Senate, it waives is power of origination of said amendments.  Further, the so-called process of how bills are processed are rules that are self policed by both houses of congress.  IOW they rammed it through before the pubs won back the house.  Further they punted the pain far enough into the future that it would not impact Obama's next presidential election.  

The democrats are in this for the long haul, they don't care how many decades it takes to convert us to a Marxist/Socialist slave state.  They will keep pushing, and keep buying votes to the end of time or they win, which ever comes first.


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## RKMBrown (Nov 16, 2013)

paperview said:


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And the house voted in approval.  Case closed.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> paperview said:
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where do tax bill originate?
Did the ACA ORGINATE FROM THE PLACE THAT IT WAS CONSTITUTIONAL MANDATE TO START FROM?


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

Now that we agree obamacare was ruled a tax how about this.
Tax legislation has to originate in the House; the health-care law didn&#8217;t. 
Obamacare?s Unconstitutional Origins | National Review Online


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


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Where the precedence at for this type of legislation? You had a democratic controlled senate and house pushing with everything they could to slide this piece of crap through does it matter to them about being constitutional or not? NO it does not.


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## paperview (Nov 16, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> where do tax bill originate?
> ...


I told you.  The House.

Article I, § 7, cl. 1:
*All Bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of  Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as  on other Bills.*


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Now that we agree obamacare was ruled a tax how about this.
> Tax legislation has to originate in the House; the health-care law didnt.
> Obamacare?s Unconstitutional Origins | National Review Online



So will obamacare stand another challenge in court since it's a tax but did not originate from the house?


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## RKMBrown (Nov 16, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> RKMBrown said:
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Yeah there are actually half a dozen taxes in OCA.  The so called mandate tax is 1% on income going to 2.5% of income. The hidden taxes are placed on health care providers and insurance companies, that are in turn placed on consumers, these are the so called hidden taxes.  Europe calls these sort of hidden taxes VAT taxes. But I digress. 

The regulatory portions of OCA will be defended based on the commerce clause and other powers relegated to the feds.  We'll have to wait and see if that portion of the OCA is thrown out when that issue comes to the court.  Given that the tradition is states manage health care insurance regulations, I suspect the federal regulations will be thrown out by a Roberts court.  That's my guess anyways.  We'll see.  This war over our health care is by no measure over.  IOW I think the feds regulating away low premium high deductible plans will be ruled against.  I don't see how the feds will get away with that, as it amounts to taking away the opportunity to access health care for a great many Americans.  OCA would have been better off taxing those plans out of existence than mandating them out of existence.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

paperview said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > where do tax bill originate?
> ...



Well then we now can go back to how much standing does obamacare have constitutionally?
If it's a tax but did not originate from the house? and yes this does matter.


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## paperview (Nov 16, 2013)

"Obamacare is the Law of the Land."  John Boehner


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

paperview said:


> "Obamacare is the Law of the Land."  John Boehner



his day will come also.


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## RKMBrown (Nov 16, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


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Does not matter.  Both houses vote on it, approved it, and the president signed it.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


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yes really it does matter.


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## paperview (Nov 16, 2013)

Not gonna work.



> Some Republicans are going back to an old refrain about Obamacare: It&#8217;s unconstitutional.
> 
> 
> While the GOP has long argued that the law is not permitted per the   nation&#8217;s founding documents, the Supreme Court almost entirely upheld   the law in June 2012. But it&#8217;s that Supreme Court decision itself that   has 40 House Republicans eager for their day in court





> But it&#8217;s precisely what the Senate did that helped avert any  so-called &#8220;blue slip problems&#8221; with the House, because the bill actually  did originate in the House. The Senate took the language of a  House-passed bill that would have provided tax credits to veterans  purchasing homes and replaced it with the 2,074-page Affordable Care  Act.


.



> Franks, however, argues that the original veterans bill did not raise  revenue and was &#8220;wholly-unrelated&#8221; to the health care law, therefore  violating the Origination Clause.
> 
> *Neither argument, however, seems to  have ever had much traction in the past; bills need only to deal with  taxation, not raising revenue, to avoid an Origination Clause problem,  and Article 1, Section 7 notes that &#8220;the Senate may propose or concur  with amendments as on other bills.&#8221; *
> 
> *That would include amending, as is  common practice, an entire bill.*


 40 House Republicans: Obamacare Has an Origination Problem | 218


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## BobPlumb (Nov 16, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Now that we agree obamacare was ruled a tax how about this.
> Tax legislation has to originate in the House; the health-care law didnt.
> Obamacare?s Unconstitutional Origins | National Review Online



I understand and agree with your point; however, if the surpreme court gave a damn about that point, then it would not have ruled the law constitutional because the mandate is a tax in the first place.  Hell will freeze over before the surpreme court rules obomacare unconstitutional on these grounds.


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## Katzndogz (Nov 16, 2013)

Any plan that does not start with tort reform should never see the light of day.


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## Meister (Nov 16, 2013)

paperview said:


> "Obamacare is the Law of the Land."  John Boehner



Slavery was once the law of the land, also.
Whether the left wing fringe wants to admit it or not, this bill is not going to serve the purpose it was established for.  The packaging and selling was based on lies to get enough democrat votes to get it passed.  It's not going to be funded fully and there will be new taxes and huge premium increases to fund the bill.

Once again it proves that our president was not ready for primetime


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

BobPlumb said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > Now that we agree obamacare was ruled a tax how about this.
> ...



we shall see


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## JakeStarkey (Nov 16, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


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How funny.  You get spanked all the time, cry, then come back for more.


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## RKMBrown (Nov 16, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


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To democrats, the constitution is a really old piece of paper written by a bunch of republicans that were not in touch with the socialist dream of this democrat nation of moochers, union workers, government workers, and aristocrats.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

Meister said:


> paperview said:
> 
> 
> > "Obamacare is the Law of the Land."  John Boehner
> ...



stop shedding all this truth it's hurting the pea brain left. nawh just kidding continue.


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## JakeStarkey (Nov 16, 2013)

SCOTUS opined it was constitutional.  It will remain such until SCOTUS opines differently.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


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ok you slide one over on me I have nothing to argue with on this post


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## RKMBrown (Nov 16, 2013)

JakeStarkey said:


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This from fakey the biggest joke on USMB.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


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he's of no substance. check out his new thread started count.


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## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

Meister said:


> paperview said:
> 
> 
> > "Obamacare is the Law of the Land."  John Boehner
> ...



The "purpose it was established for"*?*

*Ahem:* "Amid intense public interest, Congress passed the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (ACA), which became effective March 23, 2010. The ACA sought to address the fact that millions of Americans had no health insurance, yet actively participated in the health care market, consuming health care services for which they did not pay." - The Affordable Care Act Cases | The Oyez Project at IIT Chicago-Kent College of Law

*How so?*

note: Agree with not ready for prime time during first term.


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## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


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Shall see what? Oh yeah, you're a birther too


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


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wow that's all you have left after the ass kicking? damn dante you're slipping.


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## RKMBrown (Nov 16, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> RKMBrown said:
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> > bigrebnc1775 said:
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I'm with ya on the OCA "should" be un-constitutional view.  I'm sure I could make dozens of excellent arguments for that case.  Keep watching, whether or not the bill is constitutional is still in play.  Till the next cases are heard, we'll just have to bite our tongues on the issue, as it won't help to cry about loosing the first fight.  The smartest thing they did was to delay the implementation, as delaying the implementation delays the SCOTUS viewing the cases seeking relief from it.  

The best thing we can do is elect conservatives who do everything they can to throw it out.  Note: I did not say republicans.  I don't trust most republicans any more than democrats.  I see both of them as the same beast. Look at the media darling Christie. You really think he won't veto a bill throwing out OCA? If you want the bill thrown out elect a guy like Rand Paul or Rubio, people who believe in liberty.

What's really bothering me, has almost gone on without discussion.  Which is Obama selectively providing exemptions to our laws.  Sure that has been done before but never to this extent.

Elect me, I'll exempt all Americans from Income tax.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


> Meister said:
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and the millions who are losing their coverage because of obamacare. AHEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Meister (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


> Meister said:
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Tell Dante that the bill would have never passed if the stipulations were known before the vote....period.
What was stated was you can keep your dr.
You can keep your healthcare.
You'll save an average of 2500 dollars a year.

Not the huge premium hikes to middle income people.
Not the loss of dr.'s and healthcare coverage to millions.

So tell Dante he can spin 'till the cows come home, but the reality is.....now that the stipulations ARE known, the dems are running away from this debacle.


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## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

[MENTION=42379]Redfish[/MENTION]





Redfish said:


> Dante said:
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> > [MENTION=29100]bripat9643[/MENTION]
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Nope. Like Madison and Hamilton, this liberal favors representative democracy over direct democracy any day. Majority rule is inevitable in any democracy. What can be corrected for is excesses and other flaws built into any democratic model


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## Redfish (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


> [MENTION=42379]Redfish[/MENTION]
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We have a representative democracy, we have the bill of rights, the constitution protects minorities from discrimination.  But be truthful, thats not what you want.

You liberals think that you know how we all should live and want the government to dictate your ideas on the rest of us.   Admit it, and then we can continue with a meaninful debate.'

your continued disengenuousness destroys your credibility.   

You want a liberal minority to control the country,  you want a dictatorship by a small group of liberal elites.   Admit who and what you are.


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## Redfish (Nov 16, 2013)

Meister said:


> Dante said:
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If the truth was known the ACA bill would never have passed.   Obama and his minions LIED in order to force socialized medicine on the country.   It was never about healthcare or insurance or the uninsured,   It was about a socialist takeover of 1/6 of the economy,  because liberals believe that they know better than we how we should live.  fuck em!


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## RKMBrown (Nov 16, 2013)

Meister said:


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Anyone that actually believed the lies about lowering costs for health care by creating half a dozen new taxes and robbing medicare of 700b and forcing healthy people to buy expensive insurance plans and forcing insurance companies to add people with preexisting conditions, is either fool or an idiot.  

Elect a lawyer to run the country... and you get whimsical catch phrases that mean absolutely nothing unless you have a secret democrat decoder ring.

Example:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o16MGTbAmL0]Another Barack Obama WTF Moment - YouTube[/ame]

This is not politics of the moment, this is what we can do right now.  ROFL  IOW I don't want you to say it that way, I want to to say it this way. 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXq1G_GuG8Q]Obama Lies 16 times in under 3 minutes on ObamaCare - YouTube[/ame]

Sorry to say it but I just want to spit on this guy and slap him on the face.


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## Wry Catcher (Nov 16, 2013)

tinydancer said:


> And Republican alternatives are out there. I found this in two seconds.
> 
> http://camp.house.gov/uploadedfiles/summary_of_republican_alternative_health_care_plan.pdf



Did you read the document you posted?

I wonder, how they plan to Lower health care premiums?  Writing it is easy, do they plan to have the Congress pass price controls and direct private business to lower their fees?  Or, provide insurance companies with subsidies, using our tax dollars? 

Next, the plan is to Establishing Universal Access Programs to guarantee access to affordable care for those with pre-existing conditions.  Well, in what form?  Will the government establish such programs and run them, and if so isn't that "Socialism" in the broad sense used today?  Or, will they require insurance companies - as in Obamacare - to provide insurance to those with already diagnosed serious illnesses (diabetes, cancer, heart disease) without the subsidies guaranteed by the PPACA?

Ending junk lawsuits.  What is one man's junk is another's treasure.  Seems to me this is a legal issue to be determined by the judiciary.

Prevents insurers from unjustly canceling a policy or instituting annual or lifetime spending caps..  Why wasn't this passed by the Congress when GWB was President and the Republicans held the H. of Rep. majority and Sen. and Doctor Bill Frist was Senate Majority Leader?  That said, isn't this a requirement in Obamacare?

Encouraging Small Business Health Plans, Easy to say, how easy will it be to 'encourage' owners of McDonald's Franchises to come together and provide health care to worker's already the lowest paid in the nation?   What is a small business?  50 Employees?  Or more or less.

Encouraging innovative state programs. Fine and dandy.  How and in what form?  What if Democratic Governors simply say F off to the Federal Government simply because the ideas came from the GOP?

Allowing Americans to buy insurance across state lines.  Does the phrase "too big to fail" ring any bells?  

Codifying the Hyde Amendment.  Oh, goody.  Politicize the entire 'plan' with red meat for the crowd who hope to overturn Roe v. Wade.  

Promoting healthier lifestyles. LOL, sure, all those who hate Obama and complain about the "nanny state" are going to embrace the ideas of Bloomberg and his war against 64oz sodas.

Enhancing Health Savings Accounts (HSAs).  Have any of you looked at bill after someone, for example, has a serious leg break and needs surgery?  Oh, and where will this saving account be stored, in the safe keeping of a Wall Street firm (for a fee no doubt) which may or is too big to fail.  Dumb idea.  People don't earn enough to save for retirement let alone for an accident or illness which may not occur.

Allowing dependents to remain on their parents policies.  Gee, what a novel idea.  Obamacare already includes this, yet the big change is to lop of one year.  And to what effect: it gives the insurance industry another year of premiums from thousands of generally healthy 26 year olds.

This 'plan' is ridiculous.


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## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

[MENTION=43831]RKMBrown[/MENTION]





RKMBrown said:


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a. "The mandate "requires" we buy insurance." comes from a failure of reading and comprehension skills so prevalent in today's society. Here is a quote taken _out of context_ - "The individual mandate was Congress&#8217;s solution to these problems. By requiring that individuals purchase health insurance, the mandate prevents cost-shifting by those who would otherwise go without it." - CJ Roberts - The quote are Robert's words, but his words before saying the argument was invalid.

Here too (a), you are falling into rebtard's alternate reality where the mandate_ is_ the shared responsibility payment penalty/tax. It is not. The penalty/tax is part of the mandate, the enforcement mechanism. 

---

Two arguments were ruled invalid: the mandate under the commerce clause, and the mandate under the necessary and proper clause.

CJ Roberts: "Just as the individual mandate cannot be sustained as a law regulating the substantial effects of the failure to purchase health insurance, neither can it be upheld as a &#8220;necessary and proper&#8221; component of the insurance reforms. The commerce power thus does not authorize the mandate. Accord, post, at 4&#8211;16 (joint opinion of SCALIA, KENNEDY, THOMAS, and ALITO, JJ., dissenting)" 

 "_That is not the end of the matter._ Because the Commerce Clause does not support the individual mandate, it is necessary to turn to the Government&#8217;s second argument: that the mandate may be upheld as within Congress&#8217;s enumerated power to &#8220;lay and collect Taxes.&#8221; Art. I, §8, cl." 

---

"The Government&#8217;s tax power argument asks us to view the statute differently than we did in considering its commerce power theory. In making its Commerce Clause
argument, the Government defended the mandate as a regulation requiring individuals to purchase health insurance. The Government does not claim that the taxing power allows Congress to issue such a command. Instead, the Government asks us to read the mandate not as ordering individuals to buy insurance, but rather as imposing a
tax on those who do not buy that product.

*The text of a statute can sometimes have more than one possible meaning.* To take a familiar example, a law that reads &#8220;no vehicles in the park&#8221; might, or might not, ban bicycles in the park. And it is well established that if a statute has two possible meanings, one of which violates the Constitution, courts should adopt the meaning that does not do so. Justice Story said that 180 years ago: &#8220;No court ought, unless the terms of an act rendered it unavoidable, to give a construction to it which should involve a violation, however unintentional, of the constitution.&#8221; Parsons v. Bedford, 3 Pet. 433, 448449 (1830). Justice Holmes made the same point a century later: *&#8220;[T]he rule is settled that as between two possible interpretations of a statute, by one of which it would be unconstitutional and by the other valid, our plain duty is to adopt that which will save the Act.&#8221; *Blodgett v. Holden, 275 U. S. 142, 148 (1927) (concurring opinion). *The most straightforward reading of the mandate is that it commands individuals to purchase insurance.*"

"After all, it states that individuals &#8220;shall&#8221; maintain health insurance. 26 U. S. C.§5000A(a). Congress thought it could enact such a command under the Commerce Clause, and the Government primarily defended the law on that basis. But, for the reasons explained above, the Commerce Clause does not give Congress that power. *Under our precedent, it is therefore necessary to ask whether the Government&#8217;s alternative reading of the statute&#8212;that it only imposes a tax on those without insurance&#8212;is a reasonable one.*

Under the mandate, if an individual does not maintain health insurance, the only consequence is that he must make an additional payment to the IRS when he pays his taxes. See §5000A(b). That, according to the Government, means the mandate can be regarded as establishing a condition&#8212;not owning health insurance&#8212;that triggers a tax&#8212;the required payment to the IRS. Under that theory, the mandate is not a legal command to buy insurance. Rather, it makes going without insurance just another thing the Government taxes, like buying gasoline or earning income. And if the mandate is in effect just a tax hike on certain taxpayers who do not have health insurance, it may be within Congress&#8217;s constitutional power to tax.

*The question is not whether that is the most natural interpretation of the mandate, but only whether it is a &#8220;fairly possible&#8221; one.* Crowell v. Benson, 285 U. S. 22, 62 (1932). As we have explained, &#8220;every reasonable construction must be resorted to, in order to save a statute from unconstitutionality.&#8221; Hooper v. California, 155 U. S. 648,
657 (1895). The Government asks us to interpret the mandate as imposing a tax, if it would otherwise violate the Constitution. Granting the Act the full measure of deference owed to federal statutes, it can be so read, for the reasons set forth below..."


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## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

Meister said:


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And if pigs could fly...

This is just another Fast and Furious, Birth Certificate, Benghazi bullshit talking point the right has glommed on to. 

We will see just how many people will have to pay more. Anecdotal stories are falling apart. We will soon see, as with Romneycare, nobody but wingnuts singing this tune come a year from now. 

Websites are easily fixable. Lots of people (tens of millions) will be doing better. Things will even out and wingnut world will be left eating their own yet again, arguing over who is and is not Republican enough, conservative enough, and American enough...


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## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


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Losing or being offered other policies? Did millions of Americans lose policies before Obamacare and get offered shit?


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## regent (Nov 16, 2013)

Perhaps all these arguments boil down to a few questions: 

Should all Americans have proper health care?

If so, shall government be responsible to see that all Americans have that proper health care?

If insurance corporations are to be involved in the health care, shall government supervise  that corporate health-care responsibility by law?


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## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


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Your perceptions are as seriously flawed as your argument. Bush and Bush and 
Reagan raised the bar on administrative stuff. see: C. Boyden Gray et al

President Obama's use of administrative acts dealing with stuff is mostly caused by a far right group withing the GOP using the Congress to stymie and halt real legislative work. 

A Congress that spends most of it's time trying to make this President look bad.  what a waste...but gerrymandering has left us with this.


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## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

regent said:


> Perhaps all these arguments boil down to a few questions:
> 
> Should all Americans have proper health care?
> 
> ...



Should all Americans have access to basic health care? see: Interviews - Pascal Couchepin | Sick Around The World | FRONTLINE | PBS

If so, can the people demand their government through regulation of a market, be responsible to see that all Americans have that access to health care?

If not-for-profit insurance is set up to guarantee access to basic health care, what will the private insurance industry do? see: Interviews - Pascal Couchepin | Sick Around The World | FRONTLINE | PBS


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## RKMBrown (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


> Meister said:
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Don't get your paper towel out yet for that whack off session you are whipping up. Just because this Act is merely a rape of the American tax payer is no reason to allow it.  Just because the scotus ruled, again, that congress can tax us, does not mean F&F not happen, nor does it mean Obama has a real BC or a real SS card, nor does it mean that Obama's going to sleep on the night of Bengazi after forcing the commanders to stand down, then firing all the commanders in the following months will soon be forgotten, nor does it mean that a socialist like Romney is gonna win the republican primary again.  In short, don't get your hopes up for a communist takeover, I don't think the demo-wussies have the stomach for all out war.


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## RKMBrown (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


> regent said:
> 
> 
> > Perhaps all these arguments boil down to a few questions:
> ...



>> Should all Americans have access to basic health care?
Who said they don't? They have had that since way before Obuma Care.

>> If so, can the people demand their government through regulation of a market, be responsible to see that all Americans have that access to health care?

Who said they don't? They have had that since way before Obuma Care.

>> If not-for-profit insurance is set up to guarantee access to basic health care, what will the private insurance industry do?

Starve to death?  Isn't that the goal of democraps? To destroy every industry in this country, burn it to the ground, rape and pillage workers of their income and jobs to hand over to government control in a quasi marxist / communist nirvana where the aristocrats throw bread over the castle walls to their grateful slaves?


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## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


> [MENTION=43831]RKMBrown[/MENTION]
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forgot to address (b.) 

---
b.   your words: "However, it does include a fine/fee/tax or whatever you want to call that revenue shit the IRS collects from worker's income.  Thus your argument amounts to nothing more than mental masturbation, _since as we all know it was always a tax._  Oddly a tax taken in the form of fine/penalty when you file and only if you have a rebate and did not buy insurance (rumors say).  I'll wait to see it the tax forms before I'll believe much on this matter."
---

Nothing odd about a tax taken in the form of fine/penalty, is there? 

"_since as we all know it was always a tax._" - semantics, but in the law it is a penalty, _'it'_ being the "shared responsibility payment"  The court ruling did not change the language of the act, the law. 

CJ Roberts: "_It is of course true that the Act describes the payment as a &#8220;penalty,&#8221; not a &#8220;tax._&#8221; _*But*_ _while that label is fatal to the application of the Anti-Injunction Act, supra, at 12&#8211;13, it does not determine whether the payment may be viewed as an exercise of Congress&#8217;s taxing power._ It is up to Congress whether to apply the Anti-Injunction Act to any particular statute, so it makes sense to be guided by Congress&#8217;s choice of label on that question. That choice does not, however, control whether an exaction is within Congress&#8217;s constitutional power to tax. 

Our precedent reflects this: In 1922, we decided two challenges to the &#8220;Child Labor Tax&#8221; on the same day. In the first, we held that a suit to enjoin collection of the so called tax was barred by the Anti-Injunction Act. George, 259 U. S., at 20. Congress knew that suits to obstruct taxes had to await payment under the Anti-Injunction Act; Congress called the child labor tax a tax; Congress therefore intended the Anti-Injunction Act to apply. In the second case, however, we held that the same exaction, although labeled a tax, was not in fact authorized by Congress&#8217;s taxing power. Drexel Furniture, 259 U. S., at 38. That constitutional question was not controlled by Congress&#8217;s choice of label.

We have similarly held that exactions not labeled taxes nonetheless were authorized by Congress&#8217;s power to tax. In the License Tax Cases, for example, we held that federal...


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## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Don't get your paper towel out yet for that whack off session you are whipping up. Just because this Act is merely a rape of the American tax payer...


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

rkmbrown said:


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damn dude where the hell have you been?


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## RKMBrown (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


> Dante said:
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Dude.  Just because I argued you are correct based on (a) and (b) does not mean you have to provide detailed support for my statements but, thx. I guess.


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## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


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Semantics again?  "Access to basic health care" - "Amid intense public interest, Congress passed the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (ACA), which became effective March 23, 2010. The ACA sought to address the fact that millions of Americans had no health insurance, yet actively participated in the health care market, consuming health care services for which they did not pay." - The Affordable Care Act Cases | The Oyez Project at IIT Chicago-Kent College of Law

"Starve to death?"  -- more weirdo stuff?  Look into reality: Interviews - Pascal Couchepin | Sick Around The World | FRONTLINE | PBS


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

dante said:


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offering other polices? Thats still loosing what they had.


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## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Dude.  Just because I argued you are correct based on (a) and (b) does not mean you have to provide detailed support for my statements but, thx. I guess.




again, your arguments are as flawed as your opinions


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## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


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He crawled out from under a rock on the other side of the snake pit from where you reside.


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## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

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Huh?  tell that to the millions who will be getting better coverage for about the same costs or less


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

dante said:


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you've been kicked to the curb, you are dismissed.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


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What better coverage? maternity care?


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## RandallFlagg (Nov 16, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Dante said:
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Yeah buddy!

That maternity coverage will come in handy for my Wife and me! I got snipped 30 years ago and my Wife had a hysterectomy in the 80s.

But what the hell&#8230;.I guess you never know, right?  I guess the idea of a 69 year old "father" isn't THAT far-fetched, is it?


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## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


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Why do you hate women and children?


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## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

RandallFlagg said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
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> *Rep. Renee Ellmers (R-NC) *sarcastically asked Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius if she had ever hear of a man giving birth during a House hearing last week, and numerous critical media accounts have picked up on the argument.
> 
> Harkin responded to this line of thinking on Tuesday by comparing the overall societal value of the coverage requirement to the value of public education, which is funded through property taxes:
> 
> ...



[youtube]T-G_I2fMxTM[/youtube]


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## Meister (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


> Meister said:
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Tell Dante that somebody is going to have to pay for those that aren't.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


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that is a total crock of shit and you damn well know it.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
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why do you use them? why do you hide behind them like a shield?


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## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

Meister said:


> Dante said:
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Dante said:


> Meister said:
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*Ahem:* "Amid intense public interest, Congress passed the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (ACA), which became effective March 23, 2010. The ACA sought to address the fact that millions of Americans had no health insurance, yet actively participated in the health care market, consuming health care services for which they did not pay." - The Affordable Care Act Cases | The Oyez Project at IIT Chicago-Kent College of Law

and btw, the slavery analogy and comparison is specious at best. Saying something is 'the law of the land' is not support for laws that were used to justify such atrocity. Want to compare slavery to taxes, go ahead. Want to support respect for law with silence in the face of something as despicable as Conservative White Southern Christian laws protecting slavery, go ahead


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## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


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Dante doesn't, he farts in their general direction. You should know that.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


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oh so dante shits on women and children? Got it.


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## TemplarKormac (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


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You're still convinced this law is going to work huh? Tell that to the millions who are currently uninsured because of Obamacare.


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## JakeStarkey (Nov 16, 2013)

TK, you are very, very naïve.

ACA, however modified, is here to stay.

The GOP and Dem mainstream are having to work with each other, which minimalizes the extremes on the right and left.


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## RandallFlagg (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


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Yeah, I get it. You're a socialist.  Equating paying property taxes or supporting local schools to pregnancy is insane.

Now run along  Che'


Oh, and for the record, I couldn't care less if every public school in America closed tomorrow. From 1st to 29th in the world. Yeah&#8230;&#8230;that's "Progressive"


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## RKMBrown (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Dude.  Just because I argued you are correct based on (a) and (b) does not mean you have to provide detailed support for my statements but, thx. I guess.
> ...



Fine, prove you are wrong.


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## RKMBrown (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
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[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWBUl7oT9sA]I Fart In Your General Direction! - YouTube[/ame]


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## RKMBrown (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Dude.  Just because I argued you are correct based on (a) and (b) does not mean you have to provide detailed support for my statements but, thx. I guess.
> ...



FYI: Check my post were I listed (a) and (b) I was talking to bigreb not you.  Thus you just argued that my interpretation regarding what bigreb was saying is incorrect based on your understanding of the ACA.  You do realize these are two different things.  Or are you trying to say you change your mind and agree with bigreb's points?


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## RKMBrown (Nov 16, 2013)

RandallFlagg said:


> Dante said:
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Privatize the schools... I like it.  I get to keep my taxes and pay only for what I use.  Cool. Oh but wait, then the parents of the poor kids will have to get jobs, oh that won't work well.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


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That's not nice the dante will start talking to you in third person.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


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Still he got it wrong about the mandate to buy something, that argument was found unconstitutional.


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## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


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1. CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS delivered the opinion of the Court with respect to Part II, concluding that the Anti-Injunction Act does not bar this suit.

2. CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS concluded in Part IIIA that the individual mandate is not a valid exercise of Congresss power under the Commerce Clause and the Necessary and Proper Clause. Pp. 1630.(a)

3. CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS concluded in Part IIIB that the individual mandate must be construed as imposing a tax on those who do not have health insurance, if such a construction is reasonable.

4. CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS delivered the opinion of the Court with respect to Part IIIC, *concluding that the individual mandate may be upheld as within Congresss power under the Taxing Clause.* Pp. 3344

  -
  .    .     .    .   http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/11pdf/11-393c3a2.pdf


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


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Dumb ass the commerce clause was the argument used for the mandate to buy obamacare it was shot down, and found unconstitutional. you keep forgetting that part it does not matter


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## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

Twenty-six States, several individuals, and the National Federation of Independent Business brought suit in Federal District Court, challenging the constitutionality of the individual mandate and the Medicaid expansion. The Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit upheld the Medicaid expansion as a valid exercise of Congresss spending power, but concluded that Congress lacked authority to enact the individual mandate. Finding the mandate severable from the Acts other provisions, the Eleventh Circuit left the rest of the Act intact.

Held: The judgment is affirmed in part and reversed in part.

The Robert Court reversed the mandate being severable from the PPACA. 

poor Meister ans rebtard


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


> Twenty-six States, several individuals, and the National Federation of Independent Business brought suit in Federal District Court, challenging the constitutionality of the individual mandate and the Medicaid expansion. The Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit upheld the Medicaid expansion as a valid exercise of Congresss spending power, but concluded that Congress lacked authority to enact the individual mandate. Finding the mandate severable from the Acts other provisions, the Eleventh Circuit left the rest of the Act intact.
> 
> Held: The judgment is affirmed in part and reversed in part.
> 
> ...



dumbass how many times does it take for you to grasp the fact without the tax verbiage in the law obamacare would have been struck down.
because the commerce clause argument was shot down.Roberts said that the government could not compel someone to buy something the government could levy a tax.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

dante how does it feel to know that you support the biggest tax on the middle class and the poor that America has ever had?


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## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...


  Not 'the' argument used, but one of two arguments used. 

Roberts:

"The Government advances two theories for the proposition that Congress had constitutional authority to enact the individual mandate. *First*, the Government argues that Congress had the power to enact the mandate under the Commerce Clause. Under that theory, Congress may order individuals to buy health insurance because the failure to do so affects interstate commerce, and could undercut the Affordable Care Acts other reforms.

*Second*,the Government argues that if the commerce power does not support the mandate, we should nonetheless uphold it as an exercise of Congresss power to tax. According to the Government, even if Congress lacks the power to direct individuals to buy insurance, the only effect of the individual mandate is to raise taxes on those who do not do so, and thus the law may be upheld as a tax."


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



yes stupid the argument that is correct the argument used for the mandate to buy healthcare.


----------



## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> dante how does it feel to know that you support the biggest tax on the middle class and the poor that America has ever had?



What did Romney and the Tea Party say about them?


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > dante how does it feel to know that you support the biggest tax on the middle class and the poor that America has ever had?
> ...


how does it feel to know that you support the biggest tax ever on the middle class and the poor? I bet you feel really good.


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## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...



Roberts "the individual mandate may be upheld as within Congresss power under the Taxing Clause."


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



Once again you're confusing the mandate to buy healthcare with a tax mandate. neither are the same


----------



## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...



Stick with the Individual Mandate within the PPACA 

You are deluded in thinking two arguments for the mandate equaled two separate mandates. 

Roberts "the individual mandate may be upheld as within Congress&#8217;s power under the Taxing Clause."


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



thats not the mandate that was ruled unconstitutional. The mandate to buy healthcare was.
how does it feel to know that you support the biggest tax ever on the middle class and the poor?


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## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...



Roberts "the individual mandate may be upheld as within Congresss power under the Taxing Clause."


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## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

An argument supporting the mandate is ruled invalid, another argument supporting the mandate is ruled valid. The mandate is ruled constitutional under one of two arguments. 

No mandate was ruled unconstitutional as there is only one mandate. 


how screwy is the rightwing? pretty damn screwy


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## RKMBrown (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


> An argument supporting the mandate is ruled invalid, another argument supporting the mandate is ruled valid. The mandate is ruled constitutional under one of two arguments.
> 
> No mandate was ruled unconstitutional as there is only one mandate.
> 
> ...



Ironic. Screwy left arguing against the screwy right for hating the left's screwy plan to screw over healthy people that don't need health care by forcing them to buy insurance they don't need to pay for the health care of people who refused to pay for health insurance even though they needed it, while simultaneously claiming this as a way to reduce costs of health care for everyone. ROFL

Then even after their screwy leader admits he blatantly lied, the screwy left continue to maintain his innocence.  I know it's popular to pretend the scumbag in chief is magnanimous and all, but this worship thing needs to be curtailed a bit.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


> An argument supporting the mandate is ruled invalid, another argument supporting the mandate is ruled valid. The mandate is ruled constitutional under one of two arguments.
> 
> No mandate was ruled unconstitutional as there is only one mandate.
> 
> ...



no one has to buy healthcare coverage would mean the mandate to buy healthcare coverage was found__________________?


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



no one has to buy healthcare coverage would mean the mandate to buy healthcare coverage was found__________________?


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## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > An argument supporting the mandate is ruled invalid, another argument supporting the mandate is ruled valid. The mandate is ruled constitutional under one of two arguments.
> ...



Obama went with the for-profit model. Dante is far more progressive on this single issue than Obamacare is  Interviews - Pascal Couchepin | Sick Around The World | FRONTLINE | PBS


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## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


> An argument supporting the mandate is ruled invalid, another argument supporting the mandate is ruled valid. The mandate is ruled constitutional under one of two arguments.
> 
> No mandate was ruled unconstitutional as there is only one mandate.
> 
> ...



One key provision of the PPACA is the "individual mandate, which requires most Americans to maintain minimum essential health insurance coverage."


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## RKMBrown (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...


Ok.  Why are you talking about yourself in the 3rd person? Are you a sock puppet?  Are they hiring?


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## LTCArmyRet (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



once again, dante has shown himself to be a true oduma sheep, not gonna bail out of this burning craft until it crashes and brings the entire democratic party down with it.  It may have been ruled constitutional, however, that does not mean it was a good idea, kind of like prohibition.


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## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



Dante knows you're brighter than the dim bulbs you surround yourself with, but careful there dimwit...you could exposed as the one-eyed man in the land of the blind


----------



## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

LTCArmyRet said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...




   almost as demented as the Slave laws analogy. 

Prohibition prohibited something. It was a religious conservative control issue sprung to life in law. Progressive in many ways, and populist. It was a mindset that wanted to exclude things and people.

The PPACA: "Amid intense public interest, Congress passed the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (ACA), which became effective March 23, 2010. The ACA sought to address the fact that millions of Americans had no health insurance, yet actively participated in the health care market, consuming health care services for which they did not pay."


----------



## LTCArmyRet (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


> LTCArmyRet said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...





keep spinning, oduma care going down in flames, keep spinning.  You'll see come next year with oduma becomes a true lame duck president and republicans control both houses of congress.  The coup de gras will happen in 2016 when the presidency is won by a republican.

And do you think that repeating that line means something?  You, along with oduma, just don't get it, do you?  While the goal of providing affordable health care is a worthwhile endeavor, it is the manner in which it was attempted to be achieved that is despicable.


----------



## RandallFlagg (Nov 16, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> RandallFlagg said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



We, in this country, spend far too much time worrying about those who "live off the kindness" of others. I'm not talking about the sick or infirmed, I'm talking about the generations that have mooched their way through life.

At what point do we finally realize that we, the people, are being taken for complete fools? Screw 'em. You need help? We'll give you help for one year. After that, you starve.

We were "supposed" to be "insuring" the 18-25 million layabouts that have never had insurance, don't want insurance or couldn't care less about insurance. Instead, we are screwing working people over to the tune of 5.8 MILLION SO FAR - that number will increase ten fold next year - to somehow soothe the collective soul of the limp wrists currently in power.

Its BS and we all know it. This is  about nothing more than making slaves of the American people to the damned government. And, quite frankly, that's all it's ever been about.


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## itfitzme (Nov 16, 2013)

The problem that has occurred with the belief that Obama "lied" when he said that "if you like your current insurance, you can keep that insurance." is an error by the listener in believing that an unspecific statement meant what they wanted it to mean.

The date of the statement in question was Tuesday, August 11th, 2009.  The bill was signed into law on March 23, 2010.

The PPACA has the following provision and the statement meant what is meant as defined in the PPACA.

The PPACA, page 43 reads;



> PART IIOTHER PROVISIONS
> SEC. 1251.* PRESERVATION OF RIGHT TO MAINTAIN EXISTING COVERAGE.*
> (a) NO CHANGES TO EXISTING COVERAGE.
> (1) IN GENERAL.*Nothing in this Act (or an amendment made by this Act) shall be construed to require that an individual terminate coverage under a group health plan or health insurance coverage in which such individual was enrolled on the date of enactment of this Act. *
> ...



Any insurance policy picked up after Tuesday, August 11th, 2009 is not subject to the statement made.  The law says that any insurance picked up before March 23, 2010 is not affected by the law.

Just as well, it is a free market and insurance companies have every right to change what they offer. 

So the question is if policies obtained before March 23rd, 2010, were canceled pursuant to the law.  

If not, personal stupidity is not someone else's fault.   This is no different than getting a ticket for speeding under the basic speed law.  Personal failure to grasp the meaning of "No person shall drive a vehicle upon a highway at a speed greater than is reasonable or prudent having due regard for weather" is one's own fault.  Ignorance of the law is no excuse.


----------



## JakeStarkey (Nov 16, 2013)

Guys, the mainstream of both parties are now massaging the bill, making it their own.

That means the socialists on the far left and reactionaries on the far right are minimalized.

You don't count anymore politically at the national level.


----------



## RKMBrown (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



Don't threaten me with a crown.  

What's the deal with the 3rd person stuff. You writing a narrative?


----------



## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...


----------



## Dante (Nov 16, 2013)

LTCArmyRet said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > LTCArmyRet said:
> ...



You can see the future? Cool, what's tomorrow's number gonna be? 

keeper post: election prediction:


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



he's an idiot.


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 16, 2013)

itfitzme said:


> The problem that has occurred with the belief that Obama "lied" when he said that "if you like your current insurance, you can keep that insurance." is an error by the listener in believing that an unspecific statement meant what they wanted it to mean.
> 
> The date of the statement in question was Tuesday, August 11th, 2009.  The bill was signed into law on March 23, 2010.
> 
> ...



oh horse shit obama said if you want to keep your healthcare coverage you can PERIOD. AND HE EMPHASIZED THE PERIOD SO SHOVE IT UP YOUR LYING ASS.


----------



## LTCArmyRet (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante is still buying the hope and change, it's close, but more accurately stated, change and hope, which is exactly how the ACA was instilled.    *WE'RE GONNA CHANGE THIS HEALTH CARE SYSTEM AND HOPE IT'S BETTER*   which was predicated by Pelosi, "we have to pass it to see what' in it."


----------



## RKMBrown (Nov 16, 2013)

LTCArmyRet said:


> Dante is still buying the hope and change, it's close, but more accurately stated, change and hope, which is exactly how the ACA was instilled.    *WE'RE GONNA CHANGE THIS HEALTH CARE SYSTEM AND HOPE IT'S BETTER*   which was predicated by Pelosi, "we have to pass it to see what' in it."



No one could be that stupid.  I could believe he's profiting from it somehow, but ignorant of it?  No chance.  To defend the democrats puts you in one of two camps, mentally handicapped or criminal. There is no way in hell any intelligent person could defend this and be outside of those two groups.


----------



## Trajan (Nov 16, 2013)

Dante said:


> RandallFlagg said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...




thats not an argument or explanation, you know that right? 


what a bunch of claptrap, its always 'a tell' that they have squat when they trot out stupid analogies like school districts or obamas fav.- car insurance...... You didn't really read or think about what he said did you? You cannot be this dumb......or...


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## LTCArmyRet (Nov 16, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> LTCArmyRet said:
> 
> 
> > Dante is still buying the hope and change, it's close, but more accurately stated, change and hope, which is exactly how the ACA was instilled.    *WE'RE GONNA CHANGE THIS HEALTH CARE SYSTEM AND HOPE IT'S BETTER*   which was predicated by Pelosi, "we have to pass it to see what' in it."
> ...



Agreed


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## Dante (Nov 17, 2013)

Trajan said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > RandallFlagg said:
> ...



yet is speaks volumes

imagine that


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 17, 2013)

Dante said:


> Trajan said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



you're tone deaf


----------



## rdean (Nov 17, 2013)

Geaux4it said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> > What Is The Republican Alternative To ObamaCare
> ...



What job?  Where?


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 17, 2013)

rdean said:


> Geaux4it said:
> 
> 
> > rdean said:
> ...



Didn't you hear obama is adding jobs by the millions every month one of those shovel ready jobs.


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## Dot Com (Nov 17, 2013)

Repub alternative? Why the tender mercies of Insurance companies of course.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 17, 2013)

Dot Com said:


> Repub alternative? Why the tender mercies of Insurance companies of course.



obama is so caring that he threaten to veto the bill that would save the healthcare coverage of  millions who have lost their coverage due to obamacare.
Now that's caring.


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## CrusaderFrank (Nov 17, 2013)

Dems are doubling down on cancelling the insurance of 5MM people and counting, when half the US States doint even have 5MM population


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## IlarMeilyr (Nov 17, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> And who is pushing it?
> 
> Does anyone really believe that the Republicans want to help Americans get good health insurance?



We had no "alternative" to ObumblerCare BEFORE he and Reid and Pelousy and the mutant idiot Democrats (alone) crammed it down our throats.  The "system" (there never really WAS any "system," but let's not quibble) that existed prior to Obumbler care was imperfect, but a MASSIVE degree of better than what Obumbler imposed on us.

I'd replace ObumblerCare with absolutely NOTHING and we'd all benefit from the change.


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## dblack (Nov 17, 2013)

Dot Com said:


> Repub alternative? Why the tender mercies of Insurance companies of course.



Yeah, if it were up to Republicans we'd be forced to buy insurance. Oh, wait. Nevermind.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 17, 2013)

IlarMeilyr said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > And who is pushing it?
> ...



Yes Change you can count on change you can believe in.


----------



## MarcATL (Nov 18, 2013)

Dante said:


> [MENTION=20450]MarcATL[/MENTION]
> 
> *
> Published June 28, 2012
> ...


Thanks for that link Dante.


----------



## paulitician (Nov 18, 2013)

It's an Un-American travesty. I said that from the beginning. The Democrats need to step up and do what's best for the Country. Time to scrap this debacle. Dump the 'Party before County' stuff on this one.


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## JakeStarkey (Nov 18, 2013)

Republicans need to do what is best for the country.

Scrap the TeaPots and the reactionaries.

Time to get to work on making the ACA better and reform it.


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## paulitician (Nov 18, 2013)

Obamacare should have never happened. It's just plain Un-American. It has to go.


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## paulitician (Nov 18, 2013)

Democrats need to stop trying to save face for their beloved Dictator. Do what's best for the Country. If you truly do believe in Freedom & Liberty, you'll join in the fight to scrap this nightmare. I hope & pray the Democrats make the right decision.


----------



## RandallFlagg (Nov 18, 2013)

paulitician said:


> Democrats need to stop trying to save face for their beloved Dictator. Do what's best for the Country.* If you truly do believe in Freedom & Liberty,* you'll join in the fight to scrap this nightmare. I hope & pray the Democrats make the right decision.




You just answered your own question. Democrats believe in victimhood, NOT liberty and freedom.


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## paulitician (Nov 18, 2013)

RandallFlagg said:


> paulitician said:
> 
> 
> > Democrats need to stop trying to save face for their beloved Dictator. Do what's best for the Country.* If you truly do believe in Freedom & Liberty,* you'll join in the fight to scrap this nightmare. I hope & pray the Democrats make the right decision.
> ...



Unfortunately, 'Mandatory/Force' seems to be what they're all about at this point. And that's not what America is about. This thing has to go.


----------



## CrusaderFrank (Nov 18, 2013)

JakeStarkey said:


> Republicans need to do what is best for the country.
> 
> Scrap the TeaPots and the reactionaries.
> 
> Time to get to work on making the ACA better and reform it.



Jake defends Obamacare like he was an 85 year old Japanese soldier who has been living in the jungles these past 65 years not realizing the war is long over and his side lost


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## paulitician (Nov 18, 2013)

Mandatory/Force is not what America is about. I really do hope & pray more Americans stand up and say No to the State on this one. The State already has enough power & control. We should not hand them what little is left of our Freedom & Liberty.


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## RandallFlagg (Nov 18, 2013)

paulitician said:


> RandallFlagg said:
> 
> 
> > paulitician said:
> ...



I couldn't agree more. That's why we are constantly being fed this "bullying" crap today. We are "setting the future up" now. After all.we are all "victims".

The government MUST step in because the "people" aren't capable of standing up to the "bullies" that are the medical industry.


----------



## RandallFlagg (Nov 18, 2013)

CrusaderFrank said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > Republicans need to do what is best for the country.
> ...







Indeed. That's what these clowns do.


----------



## paulitician (Nov 18, 2013)

RandallFlagg said:


> paulitician said:
> 
> 
> > RandallFlagg said:
> ...



Mandatory/Force = Control. That's what Big Brother's all about. All Americans should fight the State on this one. Repeal it as soon as possible.


----------



## RandallFlagg (Nov 18, 2013)

paulitician said:


> RandallFlagg said:
> 
> 
> > paulitician said:
> ...



I wish I had your optimism&#8230;.

I see apathy running wild in America. I see people with their heads down, not up. It's the same thing I saw in East Germany. In Moscow. In Gdansk.

I'm not saying that Americans have "given up", although there is a segment of America who merely "goes along" but rather, Americans are weary. They are tired. and they are Fed up.

That's why the democrats screwed the pooch with ObarryCare. Americans, as a whole, pay no attention to the crap that goes on in DC. Hell, they don't have time to - trying to put beans on the table and raise kids these days takes everything you have.

Now, put those same Americans getting cancellation notices in the mail (just wait till 2014) and now they are losing BIG money and the ability to keep the insurance that they have used for years and years. Put all this together and the proverbial SH$T is going to hit the fan (and it already is).

Socialism is fine as long as you are using other people's money&#8230;&#8230;...


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## JakeStarkey (Nov 18, 2013)

Nonsense, weirdos.  ACA is here to stay regardless of how it is reformed.


----------



## paulitician (Nov 18, 2013)

JakeStarkey said:


> Nonsense, weirdos.  ACA is here to stay regardless of how it is reformed.



You say that like it's a good thing.


----------



## dblack (Nov 18, 2013)

paulitician said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > Nonsense, weirdos.  ACA is here to stay regardless of how it is reformed.
> ...



To some it is. It's a corporatist's wet dream.


----------



## paulitician (Nov 18, 2013)

dblack said:


> paulitician said:
> 
> 
> > JakeStarkey said:
> ...



It's a nightmare to most. Mandatory/Force is not what America is about. The whole thing needs to go away.


----------



## Trajan (Nov 18, 2013)

JakeStarkey said:


> Nonsense, weirdos.  ACA is here to stay regardless of how it is reformed.



 when does so much massaging and playing hide and seek with rules make obamacare become something else? JoePackCare, SchlubCare


----------



## IlarMeilyr (Nov 19, 2013)

JakeStarkey said:


> Nonsense, weirdos.  ACA is here to stay regardless of how it is reformed.



Nah.

there's a pretty good chance that it will self-destruct given enough time.

It is a festering boil on the ass of the Obama Legacy.  It is a cancer on the electoral prospects of the liberal Democrat Parody.


----------



## paulitician (Nov 19, 2013)

The Republicans presented several alternatives to this Obamacare Obomination. They were all immediately dismissed by Obama and his gang. But i think it's safe to say, any Republican alternative would be better than this nightmare. But hey, it's always 'Party before Country' for the Democrats. Nothing ever changes.


----------



## RandallFlagg (Nov 19, 2013)

paulitician said:


> The Republicans presented several alternatives to this Obamacare Obomination. They were all immediately dismissed by Obama and his gang. But i think it's safe to say, any Republican alternative would be better than this nightmare. But hey, it's always 'Party before Country' for the Democrats. Nothing ever changes.




Yes sir. I remember that on at least three occasions, the republicans wanted to present three different plans to the democrats and they were told, in no uncertain terms, that the democrats weren't interested in anything the republicans had.

Finally, when they were going to conference (behind closed doors) the republicans were told that they "weren't needed" in the meetings - the door was shut - and locked.

The day it was voted on by the House - Not one republican Congressman voted for it. Not one. Every democrat Congressman voted for it.

It went to the Senate. Not one republican Senator voted for it. Every democrat Senator voted for it.

Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid called it the most important legislation of our generation.

NOW - democrats are deserting this sinking ship in droves. They see the writing on the wall. The House will gain seats in 2014 and the Senate will go republican.

Live by the sword - die by the sword.


----------



## paulitician (Nov 19, 2013)

RandallFlagg said:


> paulitician said:
> 
> 
> > The Republicans presented several alternatives to this Obamacare Obomination. They were all immediately dismissed by Obama and his gang. But i think it's safe to say, any Republican alternative would be better than this nightmare. But hey, it's always 'Party before Country' for the Democrats. Nothing ever changes.
> ...



The Dictator and his gang weren't having any of it. But like i said, any Republican alternative would be better than this debacle. I think even most Democrats now get that. This thing will have to be scrapped.


----------



## RandallFlagg (Nov 19, 2013)

paulitician said:


> RandallFlagg said:
> 
> 
> > paulitician said:
> ...



And that's the problem with a "majority" decree (as in OBarrycare). When you ram something through Congress (because you can) you run the risk of it coming back to bite you on your collective asses.

The democrats gave the republicans (and the country) the middle finger - passed a bill that not ONE of those idiots knew what was entailed within the legislation - and didn't care - and decided to "read" it later.

Later is now. And their collective asses are twisting in the wind.


----------



## Indeependent (Nov 19, 2013)

The problem is that legislation, which usually contains thousands of earmarks, is NEVER read in it's entirety by anybody.


----------



## paulitician (Nov 19, 2013)

RandallFlagg said:


> paulitician said:
> 
> 
> > RandallFlagg said:
> ...



Yeah, how did we get to 'leaders' like Nancy Pelosi? What went wrong? The woman is clearly an incompetent loon. "We need to pass it so we can read it." Huh Whaaa??


----------



## RKMBrown (Nov 19, 2013)

paulitician said:


> RandallFlagg said:
> 
> 
> > paulitician said:
> ...



Pelosi makes Palin look like a rocket scientist.


----------



## Indeependent (Nov 19, 2013)

Paul, I have a request that will result in the shortest posting ever on any forum...
Name the competent, honest members of a Congress.


----------



## RKMBrown (Nov 19, 2013)

Indeependent said:


> Paul, I have a request that will result in the shortest posting ever on any forum...
> Name the competent, honest members of a Congress.



Who were you before?

Marco Rubio and Lieberman appear honest.


----------



## Indeependent (Nov 19, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > Paul, I have a request that will result in the shortest posting ever on any forum...
> ...



You agree with Rubio on backing Obama's Immigration Reform?
He is quoted as stating that most Americans can't cut it.


----------



## RKMBrown (Nov 19, 2013)

Indeependent said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...



>> You agree with Rubio on backing Obama's Immigration Reform?

What backing?

I believe Rubio's statements on the matter to be correct and on the money.  That is, we currently have tens of millions of illegals here, and the status quo isn't cutting it.  I believe that at some point we'll need democrats and republicans to put together yet another promise to close the border and decide what the enforced punishment will be for the illegals currently here.  I also believe him when he says that after seeing where Reed was taking the bill, that otherwise had good intentions, he is now against the Bill.  

I applaud him for taking a stand that we need to close the border and do something to document the illegals currently here.  One way or another, either boot em, give them temporary visas, or give them citizen ship if they can prove that they are productive hard working citizens.  We need people here who are willing to put in a days work for a days wage, why turn that away?


----------



## RandallFlagg (Nov 19, 2013)

Indeependent said:


> The problem is that legislation, which usually contains thousands of earmarks, is NEVER read in it's entirety by anybody.



I agree. And it makes me sick. There are (literally) thousands upon thousands of lawyers slinking around Washington at any given time. They write this crap. Day after day, Month after month and year after year.

They have the intelligence (sic) to write this crap, but not READ IT!?!?!

I don't buy it. 

Then, we have elected representatives who "don't have the time" to do their jobs and read the legislation (or have their staffs of 6-10 people) read this nonsense and inform their "bosses" about what EXACTLY is in it while their "bosses" are kissing ass at parties on K Street.

What if - buried deep in the bill on page 894 - it states that we, the American people agree to give up all our Constitutional freedoms?  Crazy example, to be sure, but what if!?!?!

THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR THESE FAT ASSES NOT DOING THEIR JOBS THAT THEY MAKE MILLIONS OFF OF.

As for all these "earmarks" that these jerks have to "hide" in the middle of bills.WHY!?!? If you are putting forth honest legislation for your particular constituency then why the hell do you have to hide it?


----------



## RandallFlagg (Nov 19, 2013)

paulitician said:


> RandallFlagg said:
> 
> 
> > paulitician said:
> ...



Seriously, have you actually LOOKED at some of these clowns that are passed off as "leaders"!?!?!

Both sides of the aisle.


Some of these jerks look and act like mongoloids - (apologies to mongoloids).


----------



## MarcATL (Nov 19, 2013)

IlarMeilyr said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > And who is pushing it?
> ...


Status quo. More of the same huh?

Figures...


----------



## MarcATL (Nov 19, 2013)

paulitician said:


> The Republicans presented several alternatives to this Obamacare Obomination. They were all immediately dismissed by Obama and his gang. But i think it's safe to say, any Republican alternative would be better than this nightmare. But hey, it's always 'Party before Country' for the Democrats. Nothing ever changes.


It's a Republican plan.

Are you mental?


----------



## dblack (Nov 19, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> paulitician said:
> 
> 
> > The Republicans presented several alternatives to this Obamacare Obomination. They were all immediately dismissed by Obama and his gang. But i think it's safe to say, any Republican alternative would be better than this nightmare. But hey, it's always 'Party before Country' for the Democrats. Nothing ever changes.
> ...



Well, it's a Democrat plan copied from a Republican plan. Let's call it a Republocrat plan.


----------



## Indeependent (Nov 19, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



You completely eviscerated my posting.
And if you think most Americans can't cut it, I place you in with that group as indiscriminately as Rubio does.


----------



## JakeStarkey (Nov 19, 2013)

IlarMeilyr said:


> JakeStarkey said:
> 
> 
> > Nonsense, weirdos.  ACA is here to stay regardless of how it is reformed.
> ...



You were a festering sore on your own ass, and look at what you have accomplished.

ACA and its descendents will be around longer after we are dead.


----------



## Dot Com (Nov 19, 2013)

heres the repub plan from 2000-2012, 6 of those years they had total control of the government: 

...


----------



## dblack (Nov 19, 2013)

Dot Com said:


> heres the repub plan from 2000-2012, 6 of those years they had total control of the government:
> 
> ...



The "Let it ride!" plan.


----------



## dblack (Nov 19, 2013)

I guess what I find the height of hypocrisy, or perhaps just gullibility, is the excuse that the Democrats use for copying a Republican idea to turn health care reform into corporate welfare. They want us to believe it was 'olive branch', a good faith attempt at bi-partisanship. And not because they're just as corrupt and beholden to corporate lobbyists as Republicans.

In other words, "It's different when we do it!"


----------



## RKMBrown (Nov 19, 2013)

Indeependent said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Indeependent said:
> ...


Huh? Oh are you one of those limited pie guys.  If someone gets a job you loose yours? ROFL


----------



## oreo (Nov 20, 2013)

Republicans have had health care plans that would have actually reduced premiums FOREVER.  They use free marketplace ideas to do so.  _Like--letting insurance companies cross state lines--bringing in more competition which has a real history of reducing the cost of products.  Letting small business group together so that they can get the same lower rates as large corporations get.  And of course, tort reform, which would have reduced the cost to doctors and practitioners for lower general liability insurance._ *Democrats have blocked all of them from debate forever.*

Even when Obamacare was being discussed Republicans had a health care plan too.  They told you about it over and over again, and you ignored them. * In fact, not one single Republican voted for Obamacare--and they were even blocked from attending meetings regarding Obamacare.
*
Certainly you remember Nancy Pelosi announcing:  "You need to vote for this bill, before you find out what's in it."   That's exactly what Democrats did.  You also probably remember Joe Biden whispering in Obama's ear--"this is one big "freaking deal" after Obamacare passed the Democrat lead senate. *Well, it's turned out to be one big "freaking" DISASTER.*

We have 5.2 million Americans--(not including their spouses and children that were covered under their plans)--that have received cancellation notices from their insurers--After Obama promised them more than 40 times, that they could keep their insurance if they liked it.   These same people are looking at premiums on the Obamacare exchanges that are double to triple the cost of their now cancelled plans. Obama promised these same people that their premiums would be lower, they're not, they're not affordable to the average working family.  This plague is going to move into the employer mandate next year causing millions more to lose policies that they liked.  They too will end up paying more for their medical insurance.

*PURPOSE OF OBAMACARE:* To insure the uninsured  *EFFECT OF OBAMACARE:* Uninsuring the insured.


----------



## Meister (Nov 20, 2013)

I believe it's an overreach from our government to mandate what an insurance policy must offer.  People happy with their insurance should keep their insurance and not having the government say "no" you can't keep your insurance.  The object was to insure the uninsured....that was it. This is tyranny...plain and simple.


----------



## JakeStarkey (Nov 20, 2013)

> Republicans have had health care plans that would have actually reduced premiums FOREVER.


  And never passed a comprehensive plan in 12 years in which the GOP ruled with complacent presidents.


----------



## paulitician (Nov 20, 2013)

Most Americans would just be happy if this debacle went away. At this point i'm not even sure they want the Government ever getting involved again. An alternative isn't in big demand. Americans just want this nightmare to end.


----------



## paulitician (Nov 20, 2013)

Sums up this Obomination...


----------



## oreo (Nov 20, 2013)

Meister said:


> I believe it's an overreach from our government to mandate what an insurance policy must offer.  People happy with their insurance should keep their insurance and not having the government say "no" you can't keep your insurance.  The object was to insure the uninsured....that was it. This is tyranny...plain and simple.




What Obamacare is---is a National Group insurance policy.

IOW--you are paying for coverage that includes pre-natal (maternity) coverage regardless of your age, or if you have already had your kids and no longer want nor need that type of coverage. Single men--the elderly that can no longer have kids basically everyone is required to pay for it.  You are also paying for mental health and drug abuse and a whole list of other things that you may not want nor need.  These are the mandates within Obamacare that went out to every insurer in the nation.  IOW--_there are no choices within Obamacare to actually lower your monthly premiums--as the individual market offered, other than opting for a higher deductible and co-pays._

Obama and Democrats had to DESTROY the individual market--to move these people over into the Obamacare exchanges to help pay for Obamacare.  These people are quickly finding out that their premiums under these exchanges are double to triple what they were paying on there now cancelled policies, even though Obama promised that premiums would be lower on his plan.

_Diane Feinstein-and many democrats-who voted for Obamacare and then voted against a Fix in 2010 are having lots of problems._ The fix bill would have allowed people to keep their insurance as promised over 40 times by Obama.  Here is the link for that.
Senate Democrats supported rule that led to insurance cancellations ? CNN Political Ticker - CNN.com Blogs

_And of course the complaint department is now fully functional on Diane Fienstein's telephone and email address--who alone has received over 33,000 complaints within the last few weeks.  She is now backing a bill that would allow Americans to keep their coverage, even though she voted against a bill in 2010 that would have achieved that.

_
As far as the cost of Obamacare--here is is.  This coming from Diane Feinstein's letter (last week) to the Senate to change the law.


> &#8220;For example, a father from Rancho Mirage called and said: &#8216;I work three jobs to pay the bills for my wife and daughter. I got a letter that my plan is going from $420 to $943. I went to HealthCare.Gov, then Covered California. I researched my premiums. A policy almost identical to my old one is being offered for $863. I&#8217;m now being forced to come up with over $400 a month with 30 days&#8217; notice. Let me spell it out: I do not have the income to afford this.&#8217;


Dianne Feinstein joins effort to change Affordable Care Act - Politics Blog

In 2014 the Obamacare employer mandates kick in--creating another mass of millions upon millions that will be losing their current insurance plans--to accommodate the mandates within Obamacare. Which of course because of the mandates and No Choices will be much more expensive also.


----------



## Truthseeker420 (Nov 20, 2013)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-usmvYOPfco]Alan Grayson on the GOP Health Care Plan: "Don't Get Sick! And if You Do Get Sick, Die Quickly!"' - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## OldUSAFSniper (Nov 20, 2013)

Obamacare is, without a doubt, the single WORST piece of legislation in the last 100 years.

Wait until the employer mandates kick in.  When about 65% of those currently with health plans through work get the notice that they will have to go to the exchanges OR that it will increase their premiums, we will see an outcry like never before.

It's going to be bloody.  And I am going to laugh at all the liberals who will run from this amateur in the White House...


----------



## Meister (Nov 20, 2013)

Truthseeker420 said:


> Alan Grayson on the GOP Health Care Plan: "Don't Get Sick! And if You Do Get Sick, Die Quickly!"' - YouTube



When you have to use Grayson for your argument, you have hit rock bottom.


----------



## RKMBrown (Nov 20, 2013)

OldUSAFSniper said:


> Obamacare is, without a doubt, the single WORST piece of legislation in the last 100 years.
> 
> Wait until the employer mandates kick in.  When about 65% of those currently with health plans through work get the notice that they will have to go to the exchanges OR that it will increase their premiums, we will see an outcry like never before.
> 
> It's going to be bloody.  And I am going to laugh at all the liberals who will run from this amateur in the White House...



They will just throw the bum under the bus and vote for Hillary to come save the day with single payer.  The democrats are pit bulls locked onto the throats of the upper middle class income earners.  They are not going to let go, and the folks that don't have to pay a red dime for this economic rape of our higher income earners.. yeah they could give a shit.


----------



## IlarMeilyr (Nov 20, 2013)

simple repeal of ObumblerCare IS an alternative to ObumblerCare.


----------



## RKMBrown (Nov 20, 2013)

IlarMeilyr said:


> simple repeal of ObumblerCare IS an alternative to ObumblerCare.



To simple for the simple minded.  What they really want is an alternative that is even more beneficial for the moocher class.


----------



## Spoonman (Nov 20, 2013)

one thing we know about the republican alternative is 5,000,000 people wouldn't have lost their current healthcare plans.


----------



## g5000 (Nov 20, 2013)

Spoonman said:


> one thing we know about the republican alternative is 5,000,000 people wouldn't have lost their current healthcare plans.



Actually, the Republican plan was to do nothing.  So all those people who were getting priced out of the market each year as healthcare costs rose faster than inflation lost their insurance because of the GOP plan.


----------



## g5000 (Nov 20, 2013)

They aren't going to give up, you know.  The Democrats.  

The web site will get fixed.  People will get insurance who never had it, or who lost their insurance years ago.  

They aren't going to quit.  I know you want them to, and that is why you whine every day about ObamaCare; to try to make them quit.

They aren't going to.

Time to wake up to that reality and get in front of it before you get steamrolled under.


----------



## RKMBrown (Nov 20, 2013)

g5000 said:


> Time to wake up to that reality and get in front of it before you get steamrolled under.



Quick get in front of the steam roller... lol

Zig zag man don't get run over by this beast!


----------



## dblack (Nov 20, 2013)

g5000 said:


> They aren't going to give up, you know.  The Democrats.
> 
> The web site will get fixed.  People will get insurance who never had it, or who lost their insurance years ago.
> 
> ...



How exactly? What are you suggesting?


----------



## Indeependent (Nov 20, 2013)

How about the COBRA act that gives every person in the WHOLE WORLD free Health Care?
Shucks!  I forgot that Reagan already did that!


----------



## Warrior102 (Nov 20, 2013)

Health care isn't a right, dipshits
If you'd like some stroke a fucking check
What would you like next for free?
A fucking car?
Idiots


----------



## RKMBrown (Nov 20, 2013)

g5000 said:


> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> > one thing we know about the republican alternative is 5,000,000 people wouldn't have lost their current healthcare plans.
> ...



The scumbag democrats are the shit heads that have been driving up the cost of health care you lying POS.  

I got a plan, why don't you get a job parasite, instead of pushing your bills onto my taxes and now onto my insurance premiums.


----------



## Indeependent (Nov 20, 2013)

Warrior102 said:


> Health care isn't a right, dipshits
> If you'd like some stroke a fucking check
> What would you like next for free?
> A fucking car?
> Idiots



So why did Reagan sign the COBRA Act?


----------



## LTCArmyRet (Nov 20, 2013)

Spoonman said:


> one thing we know about the republican alternative is 5,000,000 people wouldn't have lost their current healthcare plans.



5 mill is a drop in the bucket, wait until the employer provided mandate kicks in next year, at least 7 mill are expected to get their health plan pink slips, I'm make a wild ass guess here and will say it will be closer to 10 mil.


----------



## LTCArmyRet (Nov 20, 2013)

g5000 said:


> They aren't going to give up, you know.  The Democrats.
> 
> The web site will get fixed.  People will get insurance who never had it, or who lost their insurance years ago.
> 
> ...



The insurance industry won't let that happen, you can't pass a law requiring them to take on customers with pre-existing conditions, lump them in with everyone else and not expect premiums to go up.


----------



## Spoonman (Nov 20, 2013)

g5000 said:


> Spoonman said:
> 
> 
> > one thing we know about the republican alternative is 5,000,000 people wouldn't have lost their current healthcare plans.
> ...



in case you hadn't noticed, insurance costs skyrocketed this year with the launch of obamacare.  so the republicans are still 5,000,000 covered ahead


----------



## Spoonman (Nov 20, 2013)

g5000 said:


> They aren't going to give up, you know.  The Democrats.
> 
> The web site will get fixed.  People will get insurance who never had it, or who lost their insurance years ago.
> 
> ...



you know the democrats haven't been right on one thing they've said about obamacare yet.  in fact, the only ones who have been right about obamacare have been the tea party


----------



## Indeependent (Nov 20, 2013)

Spoonman said:


> g5000 said:
> 
> 
> > Spoonman said:
> ...



In case you hadn't noticed, Health Insurance rates have been skyrocketing since around 2006.


----------



## MeBelle (Nov 20, 2013)

Indeependent said:


> How about the COBRA act that gives every person in the WHOLE WORLD free Health Care?
> Shucks!  I forgot that Reagan already did that!



Are you sure you think you mean what you think you mean by this post?


----------



## alan1 (Nov 20, 2013)

Thread title,


MarcATL said:


> What Is The Republican Alternative To ObamaCare





MarcATL said:


> And who is pushing it?
> 
> Does anyone really believe that the Republicans want to help Americans get good health insurance?



Let me ask you something Marc, what is more important, healthcare or insurance?
What you (and most) call "Obamacare" is really titled "The Affordable Care Act (or (ACA).  It does nothing to make healthcare/medical care more affordable.  There is even question about it making health insurance more affordable.
But, the root cause was never addressed by the ACA.  That root being the cost of medical care, not the cost of insurance.

Your OP asks for the Republican solution.  That obviously means that you think (perhaps even believe) that the government is the solution to the high cost of medical care.  I disagree.  Throughout this nations history we can see where the government solutions to issues result in higher costs to the end consumer, not affordability.  In this case they addressed insurance, not actual medical costs (root cause).  It is like forcing people to buy automobile insurance that includes oil changes and forcing auto insurers to cover oil changes.  Auto insurance would certainly rise if that were the case.

Part of the ACA forces employers of a certain size to provide/supplement medical insurance for their employees.  Do you know why employers got active in the act of supplementing medical insurance for employees?  I'll assume you don't know the reason, but if you do, it will still inform some that that don't. In 1943 the War Labor Board rules wage freeze did not apply to fringe benefits.  That's right, the government set wage freezes, so employers offered the benefit of insurance to attract employees, it was a fringe benefit.  Today, the government is now forcing employers to offer that fringe benefit.

The government isn't the solution Marc, regardless of the Republican or Democrat moniker.


----------



## alan1 (Nov 20, 2013)

Indeependent said:


> How about the COBRA act that gives every person in the WHOLE WORLD free Health Care?
> Shucks!  I forgot that Reagan already did that!



COBRA isn't free.  
Please educate yourself.


----------



## Dante (Nov 20, 2013)

alan1 said:


> Indeependent said:
> 
> 
> > How about the COBRA act that gives every person in the WHOLE WORLD free Health Care?
> ...


----------



## paulitician (Nov 21, 2013)

Meister said:


> I believe it's an overreach from our government to mandate what an insurance policy must offer.  People happy with their insurance should keep their insurance and not having the government say "no" you can't keep your insurance.  The object was to insure the uninsured....that was it. This is tyranny...plain and simple.



Perfectly stated. The 'Mandate' alone, is as Un-American as it gets. Force is not what our Country is about. This whole thing needs to be scrapped. And i think most Americans would be fine with the Government not getting involved again. Big Brother keeps telling us we desperately need things like Amnesty, More Wars, More 'Security' More Taxes, More Spending, and Obamacare. Everything's a 'Crisis', therefore we must do something. But do we desperately need those things? Americans need to start thinking these things through a bit more. If Big Brother is saying we 'need' these things, it's very likely we don't. It's more a case of him needing those things.


----------



## dblack (Nov 21, 2013)

paulitician said:


> Meister said:
> 
> 
> > I believe it's an overreach from our government to mandate what an insurance policy must offer.  People happy with their insurance should keep their insurance and not having the government say "no" you can't keep your insurance.  The object was to insure the uninsured....that was it. This is tyranny...plain and simple.
> ...



And the mandate is the one thing that the Republicans won't touch.

There's an interesting article in the WSJ that paints a very plausible scenario for how things might play out. And of course, the mandate stays:

How the GOP Should Fix ObamaCare - Wall Street Journal - WSJ.com


----------



## PMZ (Nov 21, 2013)

Nobody has had their health insurance canceled.  Every case considered by the Republican propaganda is that the 2013  policy has been replaced by a 2014 policy,  an event that happens virtually every  year.  That's the mechanism that insurance companies use to avoid their risk of rising healthcare costs.


----------



## paulitician (Nov 21, 2013)

dblack said:


> paulitician said:
> 
> 
> > Meister said:
> ...



Shame on them too.


----------



## MarcATL (Nov 21, 2013)

alan1 said:


> Thread title,
> 
> 
> MarcATL said:
> ...


What's the solution then Alan?

The status quo?


----------



## dblack (Nov 21, 2013)

paulitician said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > paulitician said:
> ...



I'd bet good money it's exactly what the pubs will do. It gives the insurance industry every fucking thing. Let's the off them hook for pre-existing conditions and all the 'protections' entailed in Obamacare, but leaves the mandate in place.


----------



## RKMBrown (Nov 21, 2013)

dblack said:


> paulitician said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



The pub plan is to support HSAs and free markets instead of outlawing them.


----------



## dblack (Nov 21, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > paulitician said:
> ...



We'll see ...


----------



## RKMBrown (Nov 21, 2013)

dblack said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



Ok... I meant the conservative plan   Neo-cons like McCain, Romney, Perry, Christie, and Bush... yeah never know what those socialist pubs are gonna do.


----------



## PMZ (Nov 21, 2013)

dblack said:


> paulitician said:
> 
> 
> > Meister said:
> ...



From the WSJ article. 

" Americans are beginning to understand that the essence of the Affordable Care Act is that millions of people are being conscripted to buy overpriced insurance they would never choose for themselves in order to afford Mr. Obama monies to spend on the poor and those who are medically uninsurable due to pre-existing conditions. Both Mr. Obama and Republicans are blowing smoke in claiming that the damage done to the individual market by the forced cancellation of substandard plans (i.e., those that dont meet the purposes of ObamaCare) can somehow be reversed at this point. It cant be."

In all alternatives people are being forced to do things that benefit other people. 

In the old system people with health insurance were forced into paying the emergency room bills or medical bankruptcies of those without insurance. 

With ACA those without health insurance under the old system are forced to be responsible for their own situation and those bankruptcies and emergency room costs will be eliminated. 

With ACA some will pay,  some will save,  but everyone will be held personally responsible for their own.


----------



## RandallFlagg (Nov 21, 2013)

paulitician said:


> Meister said:
> 
> 
> > I believe it's an overreach from our government to mandate what an insurance policy must offer.  People happy with their insurance should keep their insurance and not having the government say "no" you can't keep your insurance.  The object was to insure the uninsured....that was it. This is tyranny...plain and simple.
> ...




Again, as I have stated many, many times hereit's all about "control".


----------



## dblack (Nov 21, 2013)

PMZ said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > paulitician said:
> ...



Did you read the whole article? Do you realize what they're suggesting?


----------



## RandallFlagg (Nov 21, 2013)

OldUSAFSniper said:


> Obamacare is, without a doubt, the single WORST piece of legislation in the last 100 years.
> 
> Wait until the employer mandates kick in.  When about 65% of those currently with health plans through work get the notice that they will have to go to the exchanges OR that it will increase their premiums, we will see an outcry like never before.
> 
> It's going to be bloody.  And I am going to laugh at all the liberals who will run from this amateur in the White House...



Hell, it's ALREADY bloody. These chickensh$t democrats can't run from this fast enough. They are capable of reading the writing on the bathroom walls - a democrat in Washington will soon be as scarce as snow in Death Valley.

Here's the idiots biggest problem: They can't run away from their votes. They can lie as much as they want - all the republicans have to do in their campaign adverts is put up a sign on television that says 5 words: "I DIDN'T VOTE FOR IT"

Nuff said.


----------



## PMZ (Nov 21, 2013)

RandallFlagg said:


> OldUSAFSniper said:
> 
> 
> > Obamacare is, without a doubt, the single WORST piece of legislation in the last 100 years.
> ...



You think that Democrats are running from the Republican propaganda.  Believe me,  after hearing it continously for five years about every single possibility,  and have every single one fall flat on its face,  nobody is paying any attention except the Fox addicted.


----------



## PMZ (Nov 21, 2013)

dblack said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



I did.  I disagree with their opinion.  The WSJ is owned by Rupert Murdock,  Fox Opinions owner. Nuff said.


----------



## RandallFlagg (Nov 21, 2013)

PMZ said:


> RandallFlagg said:
> 
> 
> > OldUSAFSniper said:
> ...




You go right on believing that. You're forgetting one VERY IMPORTANT thing here, sonny.money. You start emptying it from the voters pockets and taking their health insurance away from them - they wake up.

You guys are toast. But don't worry - you democrats will have a front row seat to the end of your world.


----------



## dblack (Nov 21, 2013)

PMZ said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > PMZ said:
> ...



I'll take that as a 'no'.


----------



## Luddly Neddite (Nov 21, 2013)

> What Is The Republican Alternative To ObamaCare



They never had one and never had any intention of having one. 

Even now that ObamaCare is law, all they're talking about is repeal and defund. They know they can do neither but they're hoping the lie will get them votes.


----------



## KevinWestern (Nov 21, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> And who is pushing it?
> 
> Does anyone really believe that the Republicans want to help Americans get good health insurance?



What is the alternative? It's stick with the current system that is providing lower premiums than we see post-Obamacare, lol. 

It's pretty simple.


----------



## KevinWestern (Nov 21, 2013)

Luddly Neddite said:


> > What Is The Republican Alternative To ObamaCare
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What does Obamacare do for us though?

How are drastically higher premiums making healthcare more affordable for US Citizens?


----------



## PMZ (Nov 21, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


> Luddly Neddite said:
> 
> 
> > > What Is The Republican Alternative To ObamaCare
> ...



It holds everyone accountable for the cost of their own health care.  No more dumping it off of  to others.  It gives those that business chooses to not pay a living wage a subsidy that allows them to obtain effective health care.


----------



## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 22, 2013)

PMZ said:


> KevinWestern said:
> 
> 
> > Luddly Neddite said:
> ...


You're a god damn lying sack of shit. NO IT DOES NOT. IT;'S THE LARGEST TAX INCREASE ON THE MIDDLE CLASS AND THE WORKING POOR .


----------



## PMZ (Nov 22, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > And who is pushing it?
> ...



So,  health care premiums have risen every year,  but this year only,  Fox Opinions tells you that it's due to Obamacare.  

You are a colossal sucker.


----------



## RKMBrown (Nov 22, 2013)

PMZ said:


> KevinWestern said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...



You are a LYING SACK OF SHIT. Each and every year the reason for the rise in health care costs is DIRECTLY ATTRIBUTABLE TO THE THEFT ALLOWED THROUGH CRONY CAPITALISM AND FORCED THROUGH ADDITIONAL STATE AND FEDERAL REGULATIONS.  The health care costs are going up BECAUSE OF SCREWED UP GOVERNMENT management.  Obuma Care is a collection of SCREWED UP GOVERNMENT REGULATIONS, designed to YET AGAIN screw us in the ass.


----------



## KevinWestern (Nov 22, 2013)

PMZ said:


> So,  health care premiums have risen every year,  but this year only,  Fox Opinions tells you that it's due to Obamacare.
> 
> You are a colossal sucker.



Alright, no need to be a dick PMZ; it's time to get off your high horse. 

Correct, costs _are _rising in the healthcare system. I don't disagree. My point is that Obamacare *IS* the current insurance based system with the only difference being that citizens now MUST participate or face a fine. Do you understand this? Obamacare IS the current system. The only other large change is that insurers must now take on pre-existing conditions, and this is NOT a cost-reducing measure and will cause premiums to rise. 

Obamacare is the current system, PMZ. You call me the sucker? I think peeps who bought the story that Obamacare will drive costs down were the suckers....


----------



## dblack (Nov 22, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > So,  health care premiums have risen every year,  but this year only,  Fox Opinions tells you that it's due to Obamacare.
> ...



Exactly. The entire point of ACA is to preserve the status quo - to trap us there by law.


----------



## Meister (Nov 22, 2013)

dblack said:


> KevinWestern said:
> 
> 
> > PMZ said:
> ...



Exactly, "Obamacare" was packaged and sold as a vehicle to insure the uninsured and reduce premiums.
It wasn't packaged and sold as to knock people out of their insurance policies that they liked, nor was it packaged and sold as to what was a good policy and what was a junk policy dictated by our government.
This is tyranny


----------



## mudwhistle (Nov 22, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> And who is pushing it?
> 
> Does anyone really believe that the Republicans want to help Americans get good health insurance?



Best not ask questions during a debate that you don't already know the answers to.


----------



## dblack (Nov 22, 2013)

dblack said:


> g5000 said:
> 
> 
> > They aren't going to give up, you know.  The Democrats.
> ...



 [MENTION=34052]g5000[/MENTION]

Is this what you mean 'get in front of it'?

http://www.usmessageboard.com/healt...at-s-wrong-with-this-picture.html#post8182913


----------



## Meister (Nov 22, 2013)

Truer words have never been spoken:

*The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.*	H.L. Mencken


----------



## Sallow (Nov 22, 2013)

Meister said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > KevinWestern said:
> ...



So because 6/10th of .01% are getting their policies scrapped it's "tyranny"?

What about the 17 Million kids with pre-existing conditions that can't be kicked off their parent's policies? That tyranny too?

What about the 40 Million or so that couldn't get insurance before, now getting it. That Tyranny too?

What about the 45K Americans dying EACH YEAR because of no insurance prior to ObamaCare. Was that FREEDOM??


----------



## dblack (Nov 22, 2013)

Sallow said:


> Meister said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



No, being forced to offer ourselves up to the insurance industry as mandated customers is tyranny. It sets a horrible precedent.


----------



## KevinWestern (Nov 22, 2013)

Sallow said:


> So because 6/10th of .01% are getting their policies scrapped it's "tyranny"?
> 
> What about the 17 Million kids with pre-existing conditions that can't be kicked off their parent's policies? That tyranny too?
> 
> ...




Where are the 40 million people "now getting insurance"? Last I checked barely 500k people had signed up (but correct me if I'm wrong), and nearly 10 million+ had lost their policies!

Also, I never said that insurance companies allowing pre-existing conditions is a "bad thing", it's just something that will drive costs upwards (obviously, using simple math). It's called the "affordable care act" and should be driving premiums down not up!

I want to work with you guys, really, just don't think Obamacare is worth saving. It presents no fundamental changes beyond requiring people to buy healthcare and a few additional (cheap) tricks like insurance companies must give "a greater portion of their profits" back to customers. Why do I call that a "trick"? Because the margins on insurance policies are only about 4% and won't have a big impact.

Believe me, I'm open for a discussion on driving healthcare costs down...


----------



## paulitician (Nov 22, 2013)

RandallFlagg said:


> paulitician said:
> 
> 
> > Meister said:
> ...



Ain't that the truth.


----------



## PMZ (Nov 22, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > KevinWestern said:
> ...



I understand your frustration over being so taken advantage of by Fox Opinions boobs and boobies that you thought that you could trust.


----------



## PMZ (Nov 22, 2013)

RandallFlagg said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > RandallFlagg said:
> ...



What I hear in your words is that the Libertarian Party is willing to take the dixiecrats from the GOP.  A win for everyone.


----------



## KevinWestern (Nov 22, 2013)

PMZ said:


> I understand your frustration over being so taken advantage of by Fox Opinions boobs and boobies that you thought that you could trust.



So you're saying that despite the fact my premium *rose this year*, and despite the fact my insurance said *directly that this was due to the ACA law* taking effect, that I'm to ignore people who are saying that the ACA will mean more expensive healthcare for millions of Americans?

   [MENTION=43872]PMZ[/MENTION], am I to ignore reality and pretend that I'm paying lower rates, lol? 

Seriously, I'm straight talking with you and would hope you can do the same with me...


----------



## PMZ (Nov 22, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > KevinWestern said:
> ...



Have you see  all that new equipment in hospitals now?  Have you seen hospitals now?  How about all of the ads on TV that tell us to ask our Doctors about a new pill for what we didn't even know was a problem.  Have you seen what Doctors drive now? 

Yet Republicans say,  what problem?  Let's vote again this week to repeal Obamacare. 

And colossal suckers like you lap it up like mothers milk. 

Pathetic.


----------



## PMZ (Nov 22, 2013)

Meister said:


> Truer words have never been spoken:
> 
> *The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.*H.L. Mencken



The urge not to save humanity is left over from our monkey days.


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## paulitician (Nov 22, 2013)

Don't you understand Sheep? Big Brother says we desperately need Amnesty, More Wars, More Taxes, More Debt, More Spying, and Obamacare. We're in permanent 'Crisis.' It's for your own good. So just shut up and do what you're told.


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## PMZ (Nov 22, 2013)

Meister said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > KevinWestern said:
> ...



We have a right to have bad insurance.


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## KevinWestern (Nov 22, 2013)

PMZ said:


> And colossal suckers like you lap it up like mothers milk.
> 
> Pathetic.



LOL, what? 

Dude, how about you put the "sucker" talk aside and explain to us in a straightforward way how Obamacare - which is a continuation of the current insurance based healthcare model - is going to reduce costs for Americans.


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## PMZ (Nov 22, 2013)

dblack said:


> KevinWestern said:
> 
> 
> > PMZ said:
> ...



Then why are Republicans whining about change?


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## dblack (Nov 22, 2013)

PMZ said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > KevinWestern said:
> ...



I don't know, nor do I care. Republicans are Democrats with different colored ties.


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## Meister (Nov 22, 2013)

PMZ said:


> Meister said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



Your messiah tells you what bad insurance is, PMZ.
The government lies to get this Obamacare sold and you think nothing of it?
You're a tool and nothing more.


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## dblack (Nov 22, 2013)

PMZ said:


> Meister said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



It's what we'll get, anyway.

We have lost the right, however, to decide for ourselves what is 'bad' and 'good' when it comes to insurance.


----------



## RKMBrown (Nov 22, 2013)

PMZ said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > PMZ said:
> ...



You are an idiot.  I've also seen the exact same equipment outside of hospitals where you can get the same procedures done for an order of magnitude less than it costs in hospitals.  The hospital costs are screwed up because they have no choice but to pass on costs from government mandated free customers and government mandated medicare and medicaid prices to customers that pay their costs plus carry the load for the moochers, and the medicaid and medicare customers.  That and hospital customers are more likely to be suit happy moochers.


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## PMZ (Nov 22, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > And colossal suckers like you lap it up like mothers milk.
> ...



By getting those who either are too poor,  or too irresponsible,  to cover their own healthcare costs,  out of emergency rooms and into much more cost effective care. 

To reduce the business cost of sick time.  

To enable better informed shopping for health care insurance.  Reward the cost effective companies and make the others pay for their mismanagement. 

To reduce the education ineffectiveness of student sick time. 

To name a few.


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## KevinWestern (Nov 22, 2013)

PMZ said:


> Then why are Republicans whining about change?



Why can't you answer the questions I asked you?

You called somebody dumb for believing Fox news analysts warning of price increases, yet my premium rose in 2014 and my insurance cited it as being due to the ACA law. Am I to ignore reality? 

Secondly, Obamacare is a continuation of the current insurance model; we still go to private insurance companies, buy plans, etc. Only change is now we're required to buy a plan. I've studied economics, and generally when you make no fundamental changes to a system, nothing will change, lol. Now I know that sounds simple, but many ACA supporters don't seem to understand that concept!

.


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## PMZ (Nov 22, 2013)

dblack said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > Meister said:
> ...



The right to ignorance and or irresponsibility are not mentioned in the Constitution.


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## PMZ (Nov 22, 2013)

Meister said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > Meister said:
> ...



Quite necessarily so according to the evidence.


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## PMZ (Nov 22, 2013)

dblack said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



Take the dixiecrats.  Please.


----------



## RKMBrown (Nov 22, 2013)

PMZ said:


> Meister said:
> 
> 
> > PMZ said:
> ...



Just because you are incapable of participating as a consumer in the free market, does not mean we should be punished for your incompetence.


----------



## PMZ (Nov 22, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



Sounds like an ad for Obamacare.


----------



## dblack (Nov 22, 2013)

PMZ said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > PMZ said:
> ...



Sure it is. Bill of Rights. Ninth amendment. Regardless, it's telling that you equate the right to decide for ourselves with ignorance and irresponsibility. Is that why you've never tried it?


----------



## PMZ (Nov 22, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > Then why are Republicans whining about change?
> ...



None of the Fox addicted understand even the most obvious things about Obamacare.  

It's cognitive dissonance to say that Obamacare is a huge change,  then say that nothing's different. 

Pick one and we can talk about it.


----------



## PMZ (Nov 22, 2013)

rkmbrown said:


> pmz said:
> 
> 
> > meister said:
> ...



wtf?


----------



## Listening (Nov 22, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > So,  health care premiums have risen every year,  but this year only,  Fox Opinions tells you that it's due to Obamacare.
> ...



Don't waste your time.  He's FakeyJackey's twin sister.

Nothing but potification and articles of faith from whole cloth.

No evidence.

A big hard on for Fox News.  He's just frustrated because there are a bunch of good looking blondes who are ten times smarter than he could ever hope to have been (before his brain started to die).


----------



## KevinWestern (Nov 22, 2013)

PMZ said:


> By getting those who either are too poor,  or too irresponsible,  to cover their own healthcare costs,  out of emergency rooms and into much more cost effective care.



Are costs in the healthcare system primarily rising because of unpaid "emergency room visits"? I heard this was a tiny fraction of the problem, and that hospitals generally independently picked up these costs (not taxpayers). Secondly, if we're worried about this how about we just expand medicaid a bit and forget about the rest of the ACA? I'm fine with medicaid...



PMZ said:


> To reduce the business cost of sick time.


How so? 



PMZ said:


> To enable better informed shopping for health care insurance.  Reward the cost effective companies and make the others pay for their mismanagement.
> 
> 
> To reduce the education ineffectiveness of student sick time.



Lol come on man.. Are you seriously trying to convince me that Obamacare will reduce the overall costs of the healthcare system by using the statement it "reduces the education ineffectiveness of student sick time"? 

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I think you can give me something just a tad more convincing...


----------



## mudwhistle (Nov 22, 2013)

Sallow said:


> Meister said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



Those are meaningless slogans.


----------



## PMZ (Nov 22, 2013)

Meister said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > Meister said:
> ...



Your messiah tells you what bad insurance is, Meister. 

Selling Republican do nothing is a tough job but by managing the truth,  and scrubbing brains,  Fox Opinions is up to it.


----------



## Listening (Nov 22, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > By getting those who either are too poor,  or too irresponsible,  to cover their own healthcare costs,  out of emergency rooms and into much more cost effective care.
> ...



I appreciate your willingness to engage, but POS is never going to give you a good discussion.  I would ask that you wonder over to the CDZ and take up some of those threads.  It seems that the left and right don't really like it when they can't flame....hence it is pretty dead over there....most unfortunate.


----------



## paulitician (Nov 22, 2013)

It's all about 'Crisis.' Big Brother keeps the Sheep in a permanent state of anxiety and panic. The Country will cease to exist if we don't get that Amnesty by next Friday. How long are Americans gonna be duped?


----------



## Meister (Nov 22, 2013)

PMZ said:


> Meister said:
> 
> 
> > PMZ said:
> ...



Do you ever stop and do any critical thinking on your own?  Or, do you just regurgitate the talking points from your echo chamber cheat sheets?

See you are just a tool.....embrace it, son.


----------



## KevinWestern (Nov 22, 2013)

Listening said:


> KevinWestern said:
> 
> 
> > PMZ said:
> ...



Lol, just trying my best.


----------



## PMZ (Nov 22, 2013)

mudwhistle said:


> Sallow said:
> 
> 
> > Meister said:
> ...



Death is hardly meaningless. Even for a poor person.


----------



## PMZ (Nov 22, 2013)

One thing is clear.  There are millions of people who have such a shallow understanding of health insurance that they better stay employed by someone who gives it to them.  They wouldn't stand a chance on their own.


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## KevinWestern (Nov 22, 2013)

PMZ said:


> mudwhistle said:
> 
> 
> > Sallow said:
> ...



Perhaps he was saying your assumptions were incorrect about the before/after Obamacare picture...


----------



## PMZ (Nov 22, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > mudwhistle said:
> ...



If you're right,  he should have posted a reference to different data.


----------



## PMZ (Nov 22, 2013)

Meister said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > Meister said:
> ...



Dad,  you sitting in the Lazy boy sucking up Fox Opinions does not constitute critical thinking on your own.


----------



## KevinWestern (Nov 22, 2013)

PMZ said:


> Dad,  you sitting in the Lazy boy sucking up Fox Opinions does not constitute critical thinking on your own.



You do realize the other news networks have also been ripping apart Obamacare, right? Are they incorrect as well?


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gw3yoyIw3oM]Pelosi taken apart by David Gregory on false Obamacare promises - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## PMZ (Nov 22, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > Dad,  you sitting in the Lazy boy sucking up Fox Opinions does not constitute critical thinking on your own.
> ...



The news that I take in doesn't offer opinions.  Just facts.  My opinions are my own from those facts.


----------



## Meister (Nov 22, 2013)

PMZ said:


> Meister said:
> 
> 
> > PMZ said:
> ...



It doesn't take a genius or Fox opinions to figure out we've been lied to by our president.
It doesn't take a genius or Fox opinions to figure out that this is a power grab by our president.
It doesn't take a genius or Fox opinions to figure out that our president is trying to get everyone to fall under his Obamacare exchanges, which will eventually push out private insurance.
It doesn't take a genius or Fox opinions to figure out that our government will be setting premium rates AND deductibles.
It doesn't take a genius or Fox opinions to figure out that Obama's reason for extending the signup for the 2015 rates one month from Oct. 2014 to Nov. 2014 is a pure political move to have the rates released until after the 2014 election.
It just takes critical thinking to connect the dots.
Something your are incapable of, PMZ.


----------



## PMZ (Nov 22, 2013)

Meister said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > Meister said:
> ...



It absolutely does take Fox Opinions.  

ARE YOU KIDDING ME??????


----------



## Meister (Nov 22, 2013)

PMZ said:


> KevinWestern said:
> 
> 
> > PMZ said:
> ...



PMZ: "The news that I take in doesn't offer opinions.  Just facts.  My opinions are my own from those facts found in my echo chamber talking points cheat sheet."


----------



## KevinWestern (Nov 22, 2013)

PMZ said:


> The news that I take in doesn't offer opinions.  Just facts.  My opinions are my own from those facts.



Yea, but you missed my point. You keep bringing up Fox news for painting Obamacare in a negative light, but forget that other networks are doing the same thing.

When you say to someone in a derogatory way "keep listening to your Fox news, etc", you should also include "..Fox, CNN, NBC, etc".


----------



## Meister (Nov 22, 2013)

PMZ said:


> Meister said:
> 
> 
> > PMZ said:
> ...


----------



## KevinWestern (Nov 22, 2013)

[MENTION=43872]PMZ[/MENTION] - Premiums are rising nationwide directly because of the ACA. This is a fact, and not crazy hearsay; happened to me, my wife, and many friends.

If the ACA is designed to make healthcare more affordable, shouldn't premiums go down?

What good does this law do me if I now pay more for less coverage?


----------



## PMZ (Nov 22, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


> [MENTION=43872]PMZ[/MENTION] - Premiums are rising nationwide directly because of the ACA. This is a fact, and not crazy hearsay; happened to me, my wife, and many friends.
> 
> If the ACA is designed to make healthcare more affordable, shouldn't premiums go down?
> 
> What good does this law do me if I now pay more for less coverage?



Let me give you a little lesson in insurance. 

Let's say that your insurance company sells you an automobile policy that includes minimum liability coverage.  Have you saved money? The odds say the risk X consequences are about even for either,  yes,  you have,  and bankruptcy. Thats why people elect to spread risk. 

If you buy inadequate insurance you are hoping for good fortune.  If it doesn't happen,  you're relying on others to bail you out.


----------



## RKMBrown (Nov 22, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


> [MENTION=43872]PMZ[/MENTION] - Premiums are rising nationwide directly because of the ACA. This is a fact, and not crazy hearsay; happened to me, my wife, and many friends.
> 
> If the ACA is designed to make healthcare more affordable, shouldn't premiums go down?
> 
> What good does this law do me if I now pay more for less coverage?



We've been over this a thousand times with PMZ.  He will explain to you that it is your fault for being an evil rich republican who defends corporate theft of working class income, by withholding jobs and pay raises to working class producers.  In short the lies are justified, by the ends of working class people getting free or reduced cost health care at the expense of the evil rich.  PMZ is a socialist / marxist who claims he was a Republican when he had a job. IOW he votes what is best for himself.


----------



## PMZ (Nov 22, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


> [MENTION=43872]PMZ[/MENTION] - Premiums are rising nationwide directly because of the ACA. This is a fact, and not crazy hearsay; happened to me, my wife, and many friends.
> 
> If the ACA is designed to make healthcare more affordable, shouldn't premiums go down?
> 
> What good does this law do me if I now pay more for less coverage?



You are spending more to reduce the odds of us having to bail you out.  If you include our costs to bail you out,  the two value propositions are the same.


----------



## PMZ (Nov 22, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> KevinWestern said:
> 
> 
> > [MENTION=43872]PMZ[/MENTION] - Premiums are rising nationwide directly because of the ACA. This is a fact, and not crazy hearsay; happened to me, my wife, and many friends.
> ...



Fuck you,  meathead.


----------



## g5000 (Nov 22, 2013)

dblack said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > g5000 said:
> ...


  [MENTION=30065]dblack[/MENTION]

That is not a solution, and certainly not a conservative one.  It's a Band-Aid on an arterial wound.


----------



## dblack (Nov 22, 2013)

g5000 said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



I suspect it's what we'll get. Wanna bet against it?


----------



## KevinWestern (Nov 22, 2013)

PMZ said:


> KevinWestern said:
> 
> 
> > [MENTION=43872]PMZ[/MENTION] - Premiums are rising nationwide directly because of the ACA. This is a fact, and not crazy hearsay; happened to me, my wife, and many friends.
> ...



What do you mean? Insurance was always designed as a mechanism to bail people out when they got really sick. 

As I see it I had insurance before (to bail me out) and after (to bail me out), only difference now is that I need to pay much, much more for that insurance. Again, how does that reduce my costs?


----------



## mudwhistle (Nov 22, 2013)

PMZ said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > KevinWestern said:
> ...



PMS is starting to ping.......


----------



## KevinWestern (Nov 22, 2013)

PMZ said:


> Let me give you a little lesson in insurance.


Don&#8217;t really need one.



PMZ said:


> Let's say that your insurance company sells you an automobile policy that includes minimum liability coverage.  Have you saved money? The odds say the risk X consequences are about even for either,  yes,  you have,  and bankruptcy. That&#8217;s why people elect to spread risk.


So you&#8217;re saying that as a free American we shouldn&#8217;t have the option to select a riskier policy at a lower cost if we want to?


----------



## PMZ (Nov 22, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > KevinWestern said:
> ...



How many times do I need to answer that question?


----------



## PMZ (Nov 22, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > Let me give you a little lesson in insurance.
> ...



Not if other people have to pay the consequences.


----------



## dblack (Nov 22, 2013)

PMZ said:


> KevinWestern said:
> 
> 
> > PMZ said:
> ...



Just once would be good.


----------



## Meister (Nov 22, 2013)

PMZ said:


> KevinWestern said:
> 
> 
> > PMZ said:
> ...



Other people are stll paying.


----------



## PMZ (Nov 22, 2013)

Meister said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > KevinWestern said:
> ...



If you have adequate coverage, why are other people paying your health care costs?


----------



## PMZ (Nov 22, 2013)

dblack said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > KevinWestern said:
> ...



Been there,  done that.


----------



## Listening (Nov 22, 2013)

PMZ said:


> Meister said:
> 
> 
> > PMZ said:
> ...



No, he's not.....

Kinda tough when one of your axioms of the universe turns out to be bulls$$t.


----------



## KevinWestern (Nov 22, 2013)

PMZ said:


> KevinWestern said:
> 
> 
> > PMZ said:
> ...



Who are the "other people" - the hospitals? You're worried about the hospitals having to pick up the cost of people who don't pay? Are you their rep or something? 

And on top of all this, HOW is Obamacare reducing costs?


----------



## PMZ (Nov 22, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > The news that I take in doesn't offer opinions.  Just facts.  My opinions are my own from those facts.
> ...



There are many news sources and many opinion sources.  The only reason for paying attention to an opinion source is because you aren't capable of reliably forming your own,  or you are just looking for confirmation that what you want to be true is.


----------



## PMZ (Nov 22, 2013)

Listening said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > Meister said:
> ...



Hey,  if the best that you can do is just to follow other people's opinions,  then that's the hand that you've been dealt.


----------



## PMZ (Nov 22, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > KevinWestern said:
> ...



Let's say that I have no health insurance.  I get in a car accident and am taken to the hospital.  $100K later I'm as good as new.  

I have no insurance and no money.  

Do you think that the tooth fairy pays my bill?


----------



## Listening (Nov 22, 2013)

PMZ said:


> Listening said:
> 
> 
> > PMZ said:
> ...



ESAD...

You twist and bend to get out from under supporting your assertions.

GFY


----------



## KevinWestern (Nov 22, 2013)

PMZ said:


> KevinWestern said:
> 
> 
> > PMZ said:
> ...



I said that the hospital will eat those costs.

The hospital and patient had a private transaction and the patient didn't hold up their end of the bargain & hospital was forced to absorb the expense. What does this have to do with me? Why should I have to pay more?


----------



## PMZ (Nov 22, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > KevinWestern said:
> ...



Not exactly.  They will add about 7%, on the average,  to everyone's bill who has coverage.  

That much for really ineffective health care for many who have no choice.


----------



## KevinWestern (Nov 22, 2013)

PMZ said:


> KevinWestern said:
> 
> 
> > PMZ said:
> ...



"They will add about 7% on the average" of what? This is sort of vague. 

Is this a 7% increase a year DIRECTLY related to people not paying their ER bills?


----------



## Meister (Nov 22, 2013)

PMZ said:


> Meister said:
> 
> 
> > PMZ said:
> ...



WTH?  Other people are paying others to have health insurance......like the 18-34 age group.


----------



## dblack (Nov 22, 2013)

Meister said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > Meister said:
> ...



Do you remember Muhammad Ali's famed boxing strategy? The rope-a-dope?


----------



## RKMBrown (Nov 22, 2013)

mudwhistle said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



Looks like I hit the nail on the head. Tell me if PMZ says something worth reading.  I won't hold my breath though.


----------



## PMZ (Nov 22, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> mudwhistle said:
> 
> 
> > PMZ said:
> ...



You are what you are.


----------



## Listening (Nov 24, 2013)

PMZ said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > mudwhistle said:
> ...



Wow....that was revealing.

He's pretty smart.  He is what he is.

You are dumbass.......


----------



## PMZ (Nov 24, 2013)

Listening said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



And you are a run of the mill conservative Fox addict glad to have someone thinking for you.


----------



## Listening (Nov 24, 2013)

PMZ said:


> Listening said:
> 
> 
> > PMZ said:
> ...



You'd be happy to have that much.

Right now, thinking is just a word people use around you when feeding you and changing your diaper.


----------



## PMZ (Nov 24, 2013)

Listening said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > Listening said:
> ...



Thinking is the opposite of what Fox addicts do.  They are empty receptacles for Republican propaganda.  They suck it up then endlessly repeat it as a substitute for thinking.  

Pathetic is too kind.


----------



## Listening (Nov 24, 2013)

PMZ said:


> Listening said:
> 
> 
> > PMZ said:
> ...



Constantly bleating "Fox addicst" is a sure sign that someones brain has been exposed to a little to much nitrogen for a little to long.  

It is amazing how easy it is to see that someone who is humble does not have to point out that he is humble and that someone who is actually "smart" is not required to draw attention to it (it shows for itself).

That you keep saying you are smart......only tells me that your definition of smart is being able to copy the same shyt off a 3x5 card all day long.


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## PMZ (Nov 24, 2013)

Listening said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > Listening said:
> ...



I don't say that I am smart.  You do.


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## Listening (Nov 24, 2013)

PMZ said:


> Listening said:
> 
> 
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> ...



Sorry, but I never made that mistake.  

I'd ask you to show me where, but you'd sidestep the request like you did the last time.

Another example of self proclaimed "thinkers".....ask for facts and get an ink cloud.


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## PMZ (Nov 24, 2013)

Listening said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > Listening said:
> ...



Some day,  it's possible,  that you'll think for yourself.  Then you'll know the difference.


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## Listening (Nov 24, 2013)

PMZ said:


> Listening said:
> 
> 
> > PMZ said:
> ...



I think we've reached the point in our medical technology that they can help you extract your head from your ass.  With some fresh air and a view other than what you can see through your belly button....I believe you'll get a better perspective of just what a chump you are.


----------



## PMZ (Nov 24, 2013)

Listening said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > Listening said:
> ...



You wish for a world in which you are not a run of the mill Fox sucker. I don't blame you.  But,  what are you going to do? You are who you are. 

You have a choice.


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## dblack (Nov 24, 2013)

Listening said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > Listening said:
> ...



That's procedure isn't covered by ACA.


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## PMZ (Nov 24, 2013)

dblack said:


> Listening said:
> 
> 
> > PMZ said:
> ...



ACA doesn't "cover"  anything.  That's the job of insurance.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 25, 2013)

PMZ said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > Listening said:
> ...



obamacare dictates to the insurers what they must cover so try again.


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## PMZ (Nov 25, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> PMZ said:
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> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



It doesn't "cover" anything. 

It specifies the coverage that makes it adequately likely that your health costs will be covered by you,  and not be defaulted to the rest of us.  It holds you responsible for your own costs. 

Why does that make you squirm?


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## dblack (Nov 25, 2013)

PMZ said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
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> > PMZ said:
> ...



Because 'adequate' is decided by regulators and their buddies in the insurance industry, and not by the people being forced to buy the shit.


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## PMZ (Nov 25, 2013)

dblack said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...



Unfortunately,  there are irresponsible and/or misinformed people in any population. There are a huge number of examples of where responsible and informed people have to help them avoid the consequences of that to themselves (medical bankruptcy) and others (medical bankruptcy or inability to pay medical bills). 

If you have a plan to eliminate these irresponsible and/or misinformed people from consideration,  let's have it.


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## dblack (Nov 25, 2013)

PMZ said:


> dblack said:
> 
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> ...



Blow me. You don't want alternatives. You've ignored all that have been offered. You want the state up everyone's ass.


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## Listening (Nov 25, 2013)

PMZ said:


> Listening said:
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And I chose to pity you.


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## Listening (Nov 25, 2013)

PMZ said:


> dblack said:
> 
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Go play jacks on the interstate at rush hour.  That should get rid of one of them.


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## PMZ (Nov 25, 2013)

dblack said:


> PMZ said:
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> > dblack said:
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I want personal responsibility. You want chaos.  But you have no argument at all what we'd get in return for accepting chaos. 

What exactly are you compelled to do that's now illegal?


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## PMZ (Nov 25, 2013)

Listening said:


> PMZ said:
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I can see that you are a typically well informed and persuasive conservative.


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## Mojo2 (Nov 25, 2013)

_*Dr. Ben Carson's Alternative to Obamacare*_



> *CARSON: A better alternative to Obamacare*
> 
> By Ben S. Carson Tuesday, October 22, 2013
> 
> ...



CARSON: A better alternative to Obamacare - Washington Times


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## PMZ (Nov 25, 2013)

Mojo2 said:


> _*Dr. Ben Carson's Alternative to Obamacare*_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It sounds like Medicare.  You certainly have to wonder if $2K per person per year is enough with health care costs going up so rapidly. 

Clearly,  as a Dr he has a big stake in getting government and companies  from impeding Dr pay.


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## itfitzme (Nov 26, 2013)

Mojo2 said:


> _*Dr. Ben Carson's Alternative to Obamacare*_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Health Savings Accounts have been around since 2003.


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## PMZ (Nov 26, 2013)

itfitzme said:


> Mojo2 said:
> 
> 
> > _*Dr. Ben Carson's Alternative to Obamacare*_
> ...



Most people use the to save on their out of pocket health care costs.


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## 007 (Nov 26, 2013)

Matthew said:


> Republican plan: Don't have the money = die!



Democrat plan: Dont' have the money = then don't worry, the government will give it to you, even if you're just a fat ass, lazy, pathetic asshole that simply refuses to GET A JOB.


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## Remodeling Maidiac (Nov 26, 2013)

Just wanted to remind everyone that just like I said at the beginning of this absurd thread WE DONT NEED TO SUPPLY AN ALTERNATIVE. A few minor tweaks to the old system would more than suffice.


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## PMZ (Nov 26, 2013)

Grampa Murked U said:


> Just wanted to remind everyone that just like I said at the beginning of this absurd thread WE DONT NEED TO SUPPLY AN ALTERNATIVE. A few minor tweaks to the old system would more than suffice.



That would have been sufficient for half the country.  Thats where all of the crocodile tears are coming from.  People afraid that there entitlements from wealth might be compromised by the middle class.  

Health care from a business perspective is like high unemployment.  It can be used to increase the fear of employees leaving their job. It's economic intimidation.


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## KevinWestern (Nov 26, 2013)

PMZ said:


> Grampa Murked U said:
> 
> 
> > Just wanted to remind everyone that just like I said at the beginning of this absurd thread WE DONT NEED TO SUPPLY AN ALTERNATIVE. A few minor tweaks to the old system would more than suffice.
> ...



I just don't understand how Obamacare will "drive down costs".

Old System: People shop for insurance on private market, poor people get Medicaid
New System: People are *forced *to shop for insurance on private market, poor people get Medicaid. Insurers must pick up pre-existing conditions.

I don't understand what fundamentally has changed that will drive down costs. The pre-existing condition clause certainly won't be helping the matter!


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## PMZ (Nov 26, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > Grampa Murked U said:
> ...



Obamacare expands Medicaid to people not now covered.  Many people now without insurance are forced to take advantage of Reagan's free emergency room treatment which is the most expensive,  least effective care possible.  Many people without health care options are sick more often and for longer because they can't afford  treatment.  That has an impact on business and education. 

With Obamacare,  most everyone has insurance with adequate coverage so medical bankruptcies will be reduced.  

Also more clients for private health insurance companies will spread their appallingly high administrative costs over a larger base. 

The Obamacare website will empower consumers to become informed.  That rewards the most cost effective insurance companies and motivates the least effective to higher performance.


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## KevinWestern (Nov 26, 2013)

PMZ said:


> Obamacare expands Medicaid to people not now covered.  Many people now without insurance are forced to take advantage of Reagan's free emergency room treatment which is the most expensive,  least effective care possible.  Many people without health care options are sick more often and for longer because they can't afford  treatment.  That has an impact on business and education.



Why not then just expand Medicaid? Why do you have to also make the price of my plan go up? 



PMZ said:


> With Obamacare,  most everyone has insurance with adequate coverage so medical bankruptcies will be reduced.



I have insurance, have had insurance for a long time, and the only "change" I see is that it's going up drastically. Where do I fit into the equation?



PMZ said:


> Also more clients for private health insurance companies will spread their appallingly high administrative costs over a larger base.


So you're assuming the health insurance companies will not hire anymore people if they're tasked to take on additional work? 



PMZ said:


> The Obamacare website will empower consumers to become informed.  That rewards the most cost effective insurance companies and motivates the least effective to higher performance.



Informed about what? Insurance costs? 

The only way you're going to get consumers informed about healthcare costs is to reduce this idea that everything "must be covered on insurance" and force them to pay out of pocket for non-catastrophic expensive. 
*
If the consumer aint price shopping doctors, the doctors have no incentive to charge less; does that make sense? *


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## PMZ (Nov 26, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > Obamacare expands Medicaid to people not now covered.  Many people now without insurance are forced to take advantage of Reagan's free emergency room treatment which is the most expensive,  least effective care possible.  Many people without health care options are sick more often and for longer because they can't afford  treatment.  That has an impact on business and education.
> ...



The goal is to reduce medical bankruptcies. The only way to do that is to make sure that each of us is in a position to be fully responsible for all of our own possible health care costs.  To the degree that Obamacare coverage,  and not ever rising health care costs,  increased your costs,  it's because,  without that Obamacare coverage,  you were willing to risk possibilities like pre-existenting conditions,  because you knew that you had the out of bankruptcy should they occur.


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## PMZ (Nov 26, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > Obamacare expands Medicaid to people not now covered.  Many people now without insurance are forced to take advantage of Reagan's free emergency room treatment which is the most expensive,  least effective care possible.  Many people without health care options are sick more often and for longer because they can't afford  treatment.  That has an impact on business and education.
> ...



There has been no change in "this idea that everything "must be covered on insurance" and force them to pay out of pocket for non-catastrophic expensive."

There are numerous plans that share risk between anyone's savings account and insurance. 

Because there are so many alternatives,  it's easy for people unfamiliar with the insurance game to make mistakes in balancing cost and benefit.  Especially when they may have been used to employers making those decisions for them. 

Having used Medicare . gov to sort through all of the Medicare supplemental options,  I know how helpful Healthcare. gov will be,  and,  in fact, is being, now.


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## KevinWestern (Nov 26, 2013)

PMZ said:


> KevinWestern said:
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> ...



But the question I keep asking - what about folks like myself who are seeing higher premiums + less coverage?! There are millions and millions and millions of us!

I'm middle class, already pay taxes and help the poor via medicaid. Now my premium skyrocketed and I'll be forced to pay a much larger percentage per month 2014 and beyond. If it's called the "affordable care act", then why am I and millions of other people paying MORE money for healthcare after it went into effect?

I'm paying MORE for healthcare, lol, and getting a _worse _plan. See why I'm upset?


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## PMZ (Nov 26, 2013)

KevinWestern said:


> PMZ said:
> 
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> ...



I do see why you're upset.  The whole reason that Obamacare is here is because we all ought to be upset by our out of control health care non-system where the costs have gone up every year that I was working and now beyond. 

I assume that you've been on the website or on the phone shopping around and comparing different companies and different plans.  

I did that with Medicare and the best that I could do is same price for less benefits and Medicare is not impacted at all by Obamacare. 

If you've already made a decision about which company and plan to go with I would ask them for a breakdown of how much increase is for Obamacare additional coverage,  how much for the additional risk because you're older,  and how much is just healthcare increasing costs. 

I would take what they tell you with a grain of salt, as they want to blame others,  but it would be at least some info. 

Except for Government health care insurance,  the only one fighting to keep your costs is you.  

Have at it!


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## paulitician (Nov 27, 2013)

The time for alternatives is over. It's just time to scrap this awful debacle. And then Big Brother should stay out of it. I think most Americans would be satisfied with that outcome.


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## RKMBrown (Nov 27, 2013)

paulitician said:


> The time for alternatives is over. It's just time to scrap this awful debacle. And then Big Brother should stay out of it. I think most Americans would be satisfied with that outcome.



Can we also make the president stand in the corner of the room with a duntz cap on for the remainder of his term in office?  I don't want this guy doing anything.


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## PMZ (Nov 27, 2013)

The Fox parrots repeating their propaganda. 

Obamacare is bad because we say so.  We can't give you any more reason, so you'll have to take our word for it. It might have something to do with liberty but we can't define that either. 

How scary is it the adults fall every day for crap like this?


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## paulitician (Nov 27, 2013)

PMZ said:


> The Fox parrots repeating their propaganda.
> 
> Obamacare is bad because we say so.  We can't give you any more reason, so you'll have to take our word for it. It might have something to do with liberty but we can't define that either.
> 
> How scary is it the adults fall every day for crap like this?



Forcing Citizens to buy something by way of punitive oppression is Un-American. Obamacare is an Obomination that needs to go. Period, end of story.


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## dblack (Nov 27, 2013)

paulitician said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > The Fox parrots repeating their propaganda.
> ...



It's frankly depressing that so many "Americans" are willing to roll over on this.


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## PMZ (Nov 27, 2013)

paulitician said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > The Fox parrots repeating their propaganda.
> ...



I see.  You can't think of a logical reason for the Republican fantasy either.


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## PMZ (Nov 27, 2013)

dblack said:


> paulitician said:
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I see.  You can't think of a logical reason for the Republican fantasy either.


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## paulitician (Nov 27, 2013)

PMZ said:


> paulitician said:
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I will never support the Mandate. And shame on all those who do. That includes Republicans.


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## dblack (Nov 27, 2013)

dblack said:


> paulitician said:
> 
> 
> > Forcing Citizens to buy something by way of punitive oppression is Un-American. Obamacare is an Obomination that needs to go. Period, end of story.
> ...



On the other hand, this does seem to be waking some people up. Just a matter of whether it's enough to actually turn things around.


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## PMZ (Nov 27, 2013)

paulitician said:


> PMZ said:
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But you can't give any reason,  much less a compelling one,  not to.


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## PMZ (Nov 27, 2013)

dblack said:


> dblack said:
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> > paulitician said:
> ...



The fact that you believe this is evidence of your choice to live in the Republican media fantasy world. 

I encourage it. The fact that others make the same choice is the main reason that Republicans are so surprised by election results.


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## dblack (Nov 27, 2013)

PMZ said:


> dblack said:
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Yep. Republicans suck. You'll get no argument from me. So do the Democrats. 

Polly wanna cracker?


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## dblack (Nov 27, 2013)

PMZ - have the conversation.

It's time to have the talk

[ame=http://youtu.be/BVzZ83N5y58]Get ready to have the talk - YouTube[/ame]


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## PMZ (Nov 27, 2013)

dblack said:


> PMZ - have the conversation.
> 
> It's time to have the talk
> 
> Get ready to have the talk - YouTube



You can live whatever fantasy floats your boat.  I'm staying here in the real world. 

Remember,  your service to the country is to remove all of the anarchist/dixiecrat/media conservative/American Taliban out of the GOP and into their own party.  We'll all celebrate.


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## dblack (Nov 27, 2013)

PMZ said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > PMZ - have the conversation.
> ...


WTF are you rambling on about now?


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## PMZ (Nov 27, 2013)

dblack said:


> PMZ said:
> 
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> ...



You are not a Republican.  Even Republicans know anarchy is a crime against humanity.  

So,  set yourself free.  Take yourself and your friends out of the politics that you detest.  Don't vote and don't clutter up the GOP.


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## RKMBrown (Nov 27, 2013)

dblack said:


> PMZ said:
> 
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> ...



ROFL... PMZ's real world:  [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfZTT0JP5EQ]WTF Did Obama Just Say!!!??? - YouTube[/ame]


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## dblack (Nov 27, 2013)

PMZ said:


> dblack said:
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> ...



I've never voted GOP. So, you're shooting blanks - again. I do, however, support the effort to push both major parties toward protecting liberty rather than squelching, and will continue to do so.


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## PMZ (Nov 27, 2013)

dblack said:


> PMZ said:
> 
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> > dblack said:
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Perhaps a good place to start is to define liberty.  Or tell us what is so compelling for you to do that's now illegal.


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## dblack (Nov 27, 2013)

PMZ said:


> dblack said:
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> ...



Nah, I don't see any point. I'm pretty sure at this point you wouldn't get it.


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## theliq (Nov 28, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> And who is pushing it?
> 
> Does anyone really believe that the Republicans want to help Americans get good health insurance?



In One Word Marc......"NOTHING"

steve


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## theliq (Nov 28, 2013)

paulitician said:


> PMZ said:
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> > paulitician said:
> ...



Typical of You Paul......Uncaring,Selfish,Backward and Banal.

I think that covers your mentality


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 28, 2013)

theliq said:


> paulitician said:
> 
> 
> > PMZ said:
> ...



You can't mandate compassion dumb ass.
and obamacare as nothing to do with compassion more to do with dictatorship.


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## theliq (Nov 28, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> theliq said:
> 
> 
> > paulitician said:
> ...



Fcuk not you again.........theliquidator


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 28, 2013)

theliq said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
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> > theliq said:
> ...



.I was thinking the same thing about you. You're more like the stumblenator


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## PMZ (Nov 28, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> theliq said:
> 
> 
> > paulitician said:
> ...



It has to do with healthcare.  Nothing else.  

The opposition has to do with politics.  Nothing else.


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## itfitzme (Nov 28, 2013)

http://thf_media.s3.amazonaws.com/1989/pdf/hl218.pdf


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## Listening (Nov 28, 2013)

itfitzme said:


> http://thf_media.s3.amazonaws.com/1989/pdf/hl218.pdf



And again...so what ?

If Heritage wants to run this kind of tripe, let them.

The GOP is not bound to this in any way shape or form.


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## itfitzme (Nov 28, 2013)

Listening said:


> itfitzme said:
> 
> 
> > http://thf_media.s3.amazonaws.com/1989/pdf/hl218.pdf
> ...



It is an answer to the thread question.

And, of course, there is Romney's Massachusettes healthcare.

There is no other Republican alternative to PPACA because PPACA is the Republican healthcare.


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## Vandalshandle (Nov 28, 2013)

"The GOP is not bound to this in any way shape or form. "

True. The GOP does not want to suddenly embrace the winning side of history. Much better that they remain true to their mission against health care, gays, women, Hispanics, blacks, the middle class, and the poor...oh, and now, the pope, as well!


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## PMZ (Nov 28, 2013)

Vandalshandle said:


> "The GOP is not bound to this in any way shape or form. "
> 
> True. The GOP does not want to suddenly embrace the winning side of history. Much better that they remain true to their mission against health care, gays, women, Hispanics, blacks, the middle class, and the poor...oh, and now, the pope, as well!



The GOP's fascination with the past is because that's when they were last competent and relevant. 

Will they ever be again?  Possibly.  Every leaderless year that goes by though the odds go down.


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## paulitician (Nov 28, 2013)

So sad watching sycophants worshipping Big Brother and his IRS Gestapo. They know not what they do. Observing them gives you a disturbing vision of how the German People behaved during the rise of Hitler and the Nazis. Obamacare is Un-American. It's wrong on so many levels, but especially the Mandate. Hopefully they'll come to their senses and scrap it. I guess we'll see though. We know Big Brother doesn't like to admit he was wrong.


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## PMZ (Nov 28, 2013)

paulitician said:


> So sad watching sycophants worshipping Big Brother and his IRS Gestapo. They know not what they do. Observing them gives you a disturbing vision of how the German People behaved during the rise of Hitler and the Nazis. Obamacare is Un-American. It's wrong on so many levels, but especially the Mandate. Hopefully they'll come to their senses and scrap it. I guess we'll see though. We know Big Brother doesn't like to admit he was wrong.



One thing that's always true of propaganda,  be it from pre-WWII Nazis or the current GOP, is that it's full of emotions and absent of facts. Like your post,  as a good example.  Which we can safely assume is just a repetitive of what you were issued from Faux Opinions. 

Lots of bogeyman,  zero facts or logic, or rational thinking. 

Must work for the minions.  Not so for independent thinkers.


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## paulitician (Nov 29, 2013)

PMZ said:


> paulitician said:
> 
> 
> > So sad watching sycophants worshipping Big Brother and his IRS Gestapo. They know not what they do. Observing them gives you a disturbing vision of how the German People behaved during the rise of Hitler and the Nazis. Obamacare is Un-American. It's wrong on so many levels, but especially the Mandate. Hopefully they'll come to their senses and scrap it. I guess we'll see though. We know Big Brother doesn't like to admit he was wrong.
> ...



Do you really believe you're an 'independent thinker?' Seriously?


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## RKMBrown (Nov 29, 2013)

itfitzme said:


> Listening said:
> 
> 
> > itfitzme said:
> ...



ROFL yeah cause a bill written without any help of republicans, that was voted against by all republicans, hated, vilified, spit on by all republicans... is all the blame of the republicans.  ROFL Oh wait, that's a lie right?  It's Obama Care right?  I mean wasn't he president at the time?  Please show me your evidence that republicans had anything to do with Obama Care, other than being tied down and forced to pay for it raped in the public square while you cheered on.


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## Listening (Nov 29, 2013)

paulitician said:


> PMZ said:
> 
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> > paulitician said:
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That is what is so laughable.

You know he's cornered or to lazy to pursue a point when the "Faux News" comments hit (which seems to be about every post).


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## PMZ (Nov 29, 2013)

paulitician said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > paulitician said:
> ...



I take in facts.  I form my opinions. 
What would you call that?


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## PMZ (Nov 29, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> itfitzme said:
> 
> 
> > Listening said:
> ...



Republicans are accountable for Republican decisions.  They made the bed that they're now lying in.


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## RKMBrown (Nov 29, 2013)

PMZ said:


> paulitician said:
> 
> 
> > PMZ said:
> ...



The problem is, most of the time your facts are talking points and your opinions are parroting.


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## PMZ (Nov 29, 2013)

Listening said:


> paulitician said:
> 
> 
> > PMZ said:
> ...



What's laughable are those addicted to Faux Opinions.


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## RKMBrown (Nov 29, 2013)

PMZ said:


> Listening said:
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> > paulitician said:
> ...



Says the only guy on USMB that even watches Fox.


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## dblack (Nov 29, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > Listening said:
> ...



There may be some truth to that. Turn off the TV. You'll be glad you did.


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## PMZ (Nov 29, 2013)

dblack said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > PMZ said:
> ...



I don't do TV as a rule except for national news and PBS. When you stop and think about it we are completely overloaded with unnecessary information.  Some days,  the truth be told,  there is simply no news worth reporting.  Some days a book needs to be written.  But what do we get?  Exactly the same volume most every day.


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## RKMBrown (Nov 29, 2013)

PMZ said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



I'm confused.  First you claim to be a republican that watches Fox religiously to the point of being able to tell when people are parroting Fox. Then you claim you only watch CBS, NBC, ABC national news TV shows and you hate republicans and love Obama.  Which lie is the truth?


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## PMZ (Nov 29, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > dblack said:
> ...



Your lies are not the truth.


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## itfitzme (Nov 29, 2013)

Listening said:


> paulitician said:
> 
> 
> > PMZ said:
> ...



You mean like when someone posts meaningless, emotionally laden propogandizing terms like;

"worshipping Big Brother"
"Gestapo" 
"German People"
"rise of Hitler and the Nazis"
"Un-American"


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## PMZ (Nov 29, 2013)

itfitzme said:


> Listening said:
> 
> 
> > paulitician said:
> ...



What one is left with when facts don't support dogma.


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## itfitzme (Nov 29, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> itfitzme said:
> 
> 
> > Listening said:
> ...



Now you are simply being psychotic  People have been watching C-span for years and not once has a Republican been physically restrained and raped.  Clearly you are incapable of distinguishing reality from fantacy.

You clearly are also incapable of understanding evidence and reason as I presented the proof that PPACA has republican ideas all over it.


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## RKMBrown (Nov 29, 2013)

itfitzme said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > itfitzme said:
> ...



Are you incapable of understanding the difference between physically restrained by ropes and physically restrained by law?  You can't tell the difference between sexual rape and economic rape?

As per your "evidence" of republican ideas.... that has been debunked many times.


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## PMZ (Nov 29, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> itfitzme said:
> 
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> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



Again.  What are you personally compelled to do that is now illegal?


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## RKMBrown (Nov 29, 2013)

PMZ said:


> RKMBrown said:
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> 
> > itfitzme said:
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Again, try to construct your questions without asking me to defend one of your bull shit straw-man statements.


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## PMZ (Nov 29, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> PMZ said:
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It's a perfectly straightforward question that gets to what's behind your hatred of the country that the rest of the world tries in so many ways to emulate.


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## itfitzme (Nov 29, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> itfitzme said:
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> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



Yes, I can.  You, though, do not appear to as your mind is filled with images of bondage, rape, and illegal drugs, none of which has anything to do with Congress and law.  You're the one posting psychotic bs that has no bearing in reality.

There is no such thing as an "economic rape" except in you own overimaginative psychotic world.

As to your supposed "debunking", it doesn't exist.  It is just another of your fantacies, born out of an inability to grasp the difference between objective reality and your emotionally laden "analogies".

Yes, I knkw the difference. You have consistently demonstrated that you do not.

PPACA is a real, objective thing.  So is the free market principles,  So is that Heritage document.  So is the Massachusetes health system.  Real things.


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## dblack (Nov 29, 2013)

PMZ said:


> Again.  What are you personally compelled to do that is now illegal?



Not buy shitty insurance from Liz Fowler's corporate cronies.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 29, 2013)

PMZ said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
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> > PMZ said:
> ...



Why do you hate America? keep in mind obama is not America.
So why do you hate America.
And if you support obama you hate America.
So why do you hate America?


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## PMZ (Nov 29, 2013)

dblack said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > Again.  What are you personally compelled to do that is now illegal?
> ...



The same companies that you were buying health insurance from before.


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## PMZ (Nov 29, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> PMZ said:
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> > RKMBrown said:
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I love America.  I love our Constitution.  President Obama is America for now.  You are not.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 29, 2013)

PMZ said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
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No you're in love with the concept of obama. You don't give a damn about America or the Constitution.
obama is not nor will he  ever be America  nor will any president be America.


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## PMZ (Nov 29, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> PMZ said:
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> > bigrebnc1775 said:
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You're quite wrong.  I enjoy politics and government done right.  For the last few decades Republicans have shown us exactly how to do it dysfunctionally,  President  Obama has fixed what Republicans broke,  but he can't fix the broken Republican Party.  It would appear at the moment that Republicans can't either,  but I'd like to believe that they will,  someday. 

The have to start with major house cleaning.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 29, 2013)

PMZ said:


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You aren't making a good case for expressing your love for America. We get it you love the concept of obama. Doing that makes you hate America.


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## itfitzme (Nov 29, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> PMZ said:
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No dude, you're the one expressing anti-democracy.  Like Hitler with his "Jews are trators", your sig line speaks volumes.

In America, we back the people that win the election.  That is being American.


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## RKMBrown (Nov 29, 2013)

PMZ said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
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Again, try to construct your questions without asking me to defend one of your bull shit straw-man statements.


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## RKMBrown (Nov 29, 2013)

itfitzme said:


> RKMBrown said:
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Google says there are 15k links to documents discussing "economic rape." Surprised this is the first you've heard of it.  If there is no such thing... how do you know the difference?

As to Massachusetts, you do know that is a decidedly Democrat state right?


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## PMZ (Nov 29, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> itfitzme said:
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You are now selling the snake oil that Google hits are a measure of truth? 

Bizarre.  What's the precise number of Google hits,  below which  a statement is a lie,  and,  above which a statement is true.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 29, 2013)

itfitzme said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
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Dude you are correct I am anti democracy  I am however pro REPUBLIC. Get back to me when you can describe the difference. By the way I bet you also think obama is America.


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## Listening (Nov 29, 2013)

PMZ said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
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That's right

We The People.....really never held much water with the left.

Especially those on the left who somehow think they might be smarter than everyone else when really they are suffering from a lack of oxygen from having wine corks stuck up their noses.


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## itfitzme (Nov 29, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


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Bet in one hand and spit in the other...see which one come true.


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## itfitzme (Nov 29, 2013)

Listening said:


> PMZ said:
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> ...



So what's your excuse?


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## bigrebnc1775 (Nov 29, 2013)

itfitzme said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
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PMZ thinks obama is America and you have taken his position.
You never did say what the difference was between a Republic and a democracy


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## RKMBrown (Nov 29, 2013)

PMZ said:


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I have no idea, what part of the term "economic rape" is a statement?


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## PMZ (Nov 29, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> PMZ said:
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"Google says there are 15k links to documents discussing "economic rape." " 

You make this statement in the context that 15K links certifies it's truth.  How about 12.87 links?  Still true?


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## Listening (Nov 29, 2013)

itfitzme said:


> Listening said:
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I need an excuse for what ?


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## RKMBrown (Nov 29, 2013)

PMZ said:


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No, I did not. You are either a FOS liar, or mentally incapable of reading simple sentence structure.  Which is it? Show me exactly where I used the term truth, other than to ask you this question.  The context of my statement was to the fact that the term exists, not that it is truth whatever that means in libtardish or whatever language it is you are using.


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## PMZ (Nov 29, 2013)

RKMBrown said:


> PMZ said:
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So,  what number is proof that the term exists?


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## RKMBrown (Nov 29, 2013)

PMZ said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
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> > PMZ said:
> ...


Good question. I don't know. What is the number that proves it doesn't exist?

Ok fine... here I'll define it for you:

rape: 1b to despoil.   
despoil: to severely damage or ruin (a place): to forcefully take what is valuable from (a place)
economic: : the part of something that relates to money

Thus, economic rape means to forcefully take a place's (home's, city's, state's, neighborhood's, company's, country's) valuables


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## theliq (Nov 29, 2013)

Listening said:


> PMZ said:
> 
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Well I don't agree as I only drink Champers but you and Big are really excelling at present,with you'r excellent WIT.steve


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## Political Junky (Nov 30, 2013)

My guess is the Right wants to return to the same inadequate health insurance that we've had for years.


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## ScienceRocks (Nov 30, 2013)

Political Junky said:


> My guess is the Right wants to return to the same inadequate health insurance that we've had for years.



Way worse. 

1900 like system of being success or facing the harsh reality of the road.


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## RKMBrown (Nov 30, 2013)

Political Junky said:


> My guess is the Right wants to return to the same inadequate health insurance that we've had for years.



Define adequate.  How much of my assets do you insist on taking to give you adequate insurance?  How much?  70% of my labor?  Nine months a year I have to work for you before you let me keep a dime of my own money?  When will you criminals feel you have taken enough food off my family's table?


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## dblack (Nov 30, 2013)

Political Junky said:


> My guess is the Right wants to return to the same inadequate health insurance that we've had for years.



Whereas the Democrats will tolerate no guessing. They've dictated that we keep the same failed insurance scheme in perpetuity. Go team!!!


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## Listening (Nov 30, 2013)

Political Junky said:


> My guess is the Right wants to return to the same inadequate health insurance that we've had for years.



That it was "inadequate" was never established with metrics that could have been utilized with regards to understanding the upgrade that Obamacare was supposed to be.

Obamacare was supposed to let you keep your old plan......
Obamacare was supposed to save each of us (below a certain income level) 2500/year.....

Those would have been great if they could have pulled it off.

But many of us knew going in that this was bullsh*t.

You've already established that our old system was inadequate, but again with no metrics that were meaningful (and the whole 60 million uninsured is the biggest political turd to ever hit the airwaves....only Barbara bullsh*t Boxer would still quote that number).

So keep chanting...somehow the human system isn't set up to infinitely resist lies like this.


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## PMZ (Nov 30, 2013)

Listening said:


> Political Junky said:
> 
> 
> > My guess is the Right wants to return to the same inadequate health insurance that we've had for years.
> ...




Two questions.  

What were the specifics around: Obamacare was supposed to save each of us (below a certain income level) 2500/year.....

Who said it? When?  Below what income level?  Etc. 

Second,  how do you know whether or not it's been delivered?

Also,  "(and the whole 60 million uninsured is the biggest political turd to ever hit the airwaves..." who said 60M was the correct number,  when,  and,  if it's not correct,  what is,  and who is it according to?


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## Listening (Nov 30, 2013)

PMZ said:


> Listening said:
> 
> 
> > Political Junky said:
> ...



Video: 19 Times Obama Promised to Lower Annual Insurance Premiums By $2500

Just an example.....

Why Some Are Seeing Premiums Go Up As Affordable Care Act Goes Into Effect | State of Health Blog from KQED News

Can't wait for the wiggle on this one (what was it that Obama didn't say that we should have known....???....period).


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## PMZ (Nov 30, 2013)

Listening said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > Listening said:
> ...



How do you know that that hasn't been achieved? To know that you'd have to know what premiums are now, on the average,  and what they would have been following the Republican plan of doing nothing. 

In addition,  anyone with any brain at all looks at health care premiums including oop.  It's really simple to find "cheap"  health care insurance.  Shop for lousy coverage,  and don't factor in oop. 

How much oop will the elimination of insurance loopholes save the average person and the country as a whole?


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## PMZ (Nov 30, 2013)

Evidence. 

From  http://m.whitehouse.gov/blog/2013/0...s-consumer-health-care-cost-growth-has-slowed

"Prices for personal consumption expenditures (PCE) on health care goods and services rose just 1.1 percent over the twelve months ending in May 2013, the slowest rate of increase in nearly 50 years. The slowdown in PCE health care inflation has been widespread, with important contributions from two large components: hospital and nursing home services (which comprise 42 percent of total health care expenditures) and outpatient services (which comprise 34 percent of total health care expenditures). As the chart below shows, since March 2010, these two components of health spending have made notably smaller contributions to overall consumer health care inflation than in previous years."

"Consumer prices for health care have risen at the slowest pace in nearly 50 years"

"The slowdown in consumer health care price inflation is consistent with a broad array of other evidence suggesting that the growth rate of health care costs is slowing:"

"Data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics Employer Costs for Employee Compensation survey indicate that for private sector employers offering health insurance, the annualized growth rate of real (inflation-adjusted) costs for workers health insurance has slowed from 2.2 percent a year from 2006:Q4 to 2009:Q4 to 1.8 percent a year from 2009:Q4 to 2012:Q4, with a particularly marked slowdown occurring at smaller establishments. For establishments with fewer than 50 employees, employers real costs for workers health insurance grew just 1.0 percent a year from 2009:Q4 to 2012:Q4, half the rate observed over the preceding three years. "

" During the past several years, the Congressional Budget Office reports that it has made a series of downward adjustments to its projections of spending for Medicaid and Medicare. For example, mostly reflecting the slower growth in the programs spending in recent years, CBO now expects combined spending on the two programs to be about $200 billion lower in 2020 than what it forecast three years ago."

"From 2009 to 2011, nationwide real per capita health expenditures grew at the slowest pace since reporting began in 1960. "

" In 2012, premium growth for employer-sponsored insurance was at its lowest rate (3 percent) since the Medical Expenditure Panel Survey started in 1996."

"In 13 states that have publicly reported premiums for 2014, the average of the lowest-cost plan is nearly 20 percent below projections based on CBO premiums. This includes New York State, which recently announced that health insurance rates in 2014 will be at least 50 percent lower, on average, than the plans currently available in the state. These substantially more affordable plans will soon be available through the new Health Insurance Marketplace established by the Affordable Care Act. "


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## PMZ (Nov 30, 2013)

ACA update.  Website working fine.  Telephone help a viable alternative.  Insurance companies competing in a standardized way for your business. Very informative.  Millions of people with pre-existing conditions spared medical bankruptcy.  Emergency and urgent care facilities freed up for their intended purpose.


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## dblack (Nov 30, 2013)

PMZ said:


> ACA update.  Website working fine.  Telephone help a viable alternative.  Insurance companies competing in a standardized way for your business. Very informative.  Millions of people with pre-existing conditions spared medical bankruptcy.  Emergency and urgent care facilities freed up for their intended purpose.



In a related note:

Health Care Stocks on a Roll - Survive - Prosper

Good times are here again!


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## Listening (Nov 30, 2013)

PMZ said:


> ACA update.  Website working fine.  Telephone help a viable alternative.  Insurance companies competing in a standardized way for your business. Very informative.  Millions of people with pre-existing conditions spared medical bankruptcy.  Emergency and urgent care facilities freed up for their intended purpose.



How do you know that emergency rooms and urgen care facilities are freed up their intended purpose ?

To know that, you'd need some kind of metric....that you don't have.

Funny how you run for the cover of numbers (and ignore them when they are provided) but don't provide your own.


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## Listening (Nov 30, 2013)

PMZ said:


> Evidence.
> 
> From  As ACA Implementation Continues, Consumer Health Care Cost Growth Has Slowed | The White House
> 
> ...



This is wonderful.  From Whitehouse.gove......


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## Listening (Nov 30, 2013)

PMZ said:


> Listening said:
> 
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No, dickweed....

He said 2500 savings.  No one I know is saying they are getting the same coverage for 2500 less.


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## PMZ (Nov 30, 2013)

dblack said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > ACA update.  Website working fine.  Telephone help a viable alternative.  Insurance companies competing in a standardized way for your business. Very informative.  Millions of people with pre-existing conditions spared medical bankruptcy.  Emergency and urgent care facilities freed up for their intended purpose.
> ...



Of course, part of the impetus is the move of many formerly uninsured, from emergency and urgent care facilities into mainstream medical practices.  A win for everyone.


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## Listening (Nov 30, 2013)

"Obamacare Plans Are Worse In Every Regard" - Kevin Glass

Yet another satisfied customer.


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## PMZ (Nov 30, 2013)

Listening said:


> "Obamacare Plans Are Worse In Every Regard" - Kevin Glass
> 
> Yet another satisfied customer.



That brings the total to four.  

Plus a million misinformed Faux Opinions addicts.


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## Listening (Nov 30, 2013)

PMZ said:


> Listening said:
> 
> 
> > "Obamacare Plans Are Worse In Every Regard" - Kevin Glass
> ...



One to many...thanks for the apology.

What is a Faux Opinion Addict ?

And your answer to the 2500 bust is ?


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## PMZ (Nov 30, 2013)

Listening said:


> PMZ said:
> 
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> > Listening said:
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A Faux Opinions addict is a person addicted to pre packaged Republican opinions,  along with an assortment of half facts,  from the GOP propaganda network centered around Fox News. 

You have in no way proven that the average savings due to Obamacare,  compared to doing nothing,  the Republican alternative, is not $2500.


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## Listening (Nov 30, 2013)

PMZ said:


> Listening said:
> 
> 
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I see....and how do you detect such an addict ?

Oh, I see, the wiggle now starts.  You can bet your sorry ass (and that is quite a big bet) that if they achieved those so called savings...we'd be hearing all about it.

And, let's be clear.  Our affirmative action moron didn't put that qualifier in his promises.  So that isn't the standard.  Sorry chief...you can make up what you want...but you are not getting a pass on the bullsh&t claims.


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## PMZ (Nov 30, 2013)

Listening said:


> PMZ said:
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Detecting addicts is very simple.  If you've heard one,  you've heard them all, goose stepping through life in perfect step. No thinking required. 

It sounds like you have the facts.  The average cost of 2014 health care following the Republican do nothing plan and the average under Obamacare. 

What are they?


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## Listening (Nov 30, 2013)

PMZ said:


> Listening said:
> 
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> ...



I can see that you must be an expert on detecting addicts as it appears that you're recovering yourself.

Study: Obamacare Results in Premium Increase in 45 States - Kevin Glass

Not to hard to come by.  I assume you do get our of your cave from time to time.

The odd thing is that Obama never said anything about a delta based on some trajectory.  So what was he referencing in those promises.  You don't get to fill in the blanks.  Find out what he meant in his own words.

Look forward to your reply.


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## PMZ (Nov 30, 2013)

Listening said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > Listening said:
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Where are my figures? 

You can't claim the an increase year over year means that money isn't saved. 

The only way to know is to have the two figures that I asked for. 

The 2014 average insurance cost plus oop under Republican do nothing. 

The 2014 average insurance cost plus oop under Democrat Obamacare.


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## Listening (Nov 30, 2013)

PMZ said:


> Listening said:
> 
> 
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> ...



So what did the president mean when he said it (in that compilation 19 times).  Go ahead....let hear what he meant.

Give us an example of what you think he meant.

Here is my example.

In 2014, my costs would have been X.

Under Obamacare, my costs would have been X-2500.

Let's hear it.


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## PMZ (Nov 30, 2013)

Listening said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > Listening said:
> ...



Those are the figures that are needed to prove him wrong about saving $2,500. 

In 2014, my costs would have been X. (Under Republican do nothing) 

Under Obamacare, my costs would have been Y.

What are the figures?


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## Listening (Nov 30, 2013)

PMZ said:


> Listening said:
> 
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> ...



And that is what you got in the one article.  Projections were made based on historical data and the new costs are not going to be 2500 below those...in fact they are going to be above them.

Sorry.

Just in case you need more.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapot...miums-by-avg-of-41-subsidies-flow-to-elderly/


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## PMZ (Nov 30, 2013)

Listening said:


> PMZ said:
> 
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What about oop?

Sorry.


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## Listening (Nov 30, 2013)

PMZ said:


> Listening said:
> 
> 
> > PMZ said:
> ...



In those projections.

Sorry.


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## Listening (Nov 30, 2013)

PMZ said:


> Listening said:
> 
> 
> > PMZ said:
> ...



In those projections.

Sorry.

And then how do we factor in the reduction in available hospitals under plans along with people losing their doctors.

Of course, there are many people who right now are without come Jan 1.  Unless they can get something through an exchange.


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## PMZ (Nov 30, 2013)

Listening said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > Listening said:
> ...



There is no out of pocket costs in those figures.


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## Listening (Nov 30, 2013)

PMZ said:


> Listening said:
> 
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> ...



Keep reaching.


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## PMZ (Nov 30, 2013)

Listening said:


> PMZ said:
> 
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Just a fact.  Coupled with the fact that for many situations oop is greater than health care premiums,  an important fact. 

Let me ask you,  if you believe that analysis, where do you think all of that money is going?


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## Listening (Nov 30, 2013)

PMZ said:


> Listening said:
> 
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If you haven't figured out why the insurance companies are so excited about this, think a bit more about your question.


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## PMZ (Nov 30, 2013)

Listening said:


> PMZ said:
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So,  you think that the insurance companies are taking advantage of the situation to rip off their customers.


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## Listening (Dec 1, 2013)

PMZ said:


> Listening said:
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> ...



Is that what I said ?

I will say that they certainly didn't mind being handed a bunch of new customers that will shore up the risk pools they are already forced to support.


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## PMZ (Dec 1, 2013)

Listening said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > Listening said:
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Insurance companies,  like gambling establishments,  don't assume risk. 

Healthcare risk is inherent in life.  Some are lucky,  some are not.  

ACA changed the game by preventing people from assuming risks that they couldn't afford,  and therefore were passing the potential consequences on to the rest of us. 

Insurance companies merely priced the policies in a way that eliminated their risk. 

In the end ACA did nothing to change the need for healthcare.  It's still what it was.  It changed the way the people handle risk from depending on others to bail them out,  to paying for insurance to cover the risk.


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## Lib (Dec 1, 2013)

RandallFlagg said:


> Hmmm the simple answer is as follows.
> 
> 
> 317 million people in the United States
> ...


math isn't your subject lol


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## PMZ (Dec 1, 2013)

Given what I posted above,  and the evidence of how private insurance companies are pricing 2014 policies,  one has to wonder what the end of 2014 will look like. 

1) Grossly profitable insurance companies. 

2) not that,  but a significant and forever drop in medical bankruptcies,  and emergency room and urgent care costs. 

3) Something else.


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## PMZ (Dec 1, 2013)

PMZ said:


> Given what I posted above,  and the evidence of how private insurance companies are pricing 2014 policies,  one has to wonder what the end of 2014 will look like.
> 
> 1) Grossly profitable insurance companies.
> 
> ...



Come to think of it:

Medical bankruptcies affect all of us,  but not insurance companies. 

If insurance companies are taking the belt and suspenders approach and charging for increased ACA coverage,  but not assuming a corresponding drop in emergency room and urgent care facility costs to them,  the end of year figures will show excess profit for them.


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## Wry Catcher (Dec 1, 2013)

OKTexas said:


> First we are going to raise the voting age for federal elections to 26, if your too juvenile to provide yourself insurance, then voting is out of the question.
> 
> That makes just as much sense as the bull shit your dear leader was peddling today.



You do know that 24% of the residents of Texas do not have health insurance don't you Jr.?

24% is the highest number of uninsured of all the 50 states.

See:  Health Insurance Coverage of the Total Population | The Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation


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## itfitzme (Dec 1, 2013)

Listening said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > Listening said:
> ...



It is kinda hard to have any number because the main provision of PPACA doesn't gominto effect until 2014. You seem to be complaining about something that hasn't happened yet.

Health and Human Services report

ASPE

"Premiums before tax credits will be more than 16 percent lower than projected
*
·******** The weighted average second lowest cost silver plan for 48 states (including DC) is 16 percent below projections based on the ASPE-derived Congressional Budget Office premiums.[11]* In 15 states, the second lowest cost silver plan will be less than $300 per month  a savings of $1,100 a year per enrollee compared to expectations.* Overall, 95% of the uninsured potentially eligible for the Marketplaces live in states with average premiums below ASPE-derived CBO projected premiums (see Figure 1)."

I'm still looking for the "ASPE-derived CBO projected premiums."


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## PMZ (Dec 1, 2013)

Wry Catcher said:


> OKTexas said:
> 
> 
> > First we are going to raise the voting age for federal elections to 26, if your too juvenile to provide yourself insurance, then voting is out of the question.
> ...



Very interesting statistics. Amazing the range of numbers between the states in all categories.


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## itfitzme (Dec 1, 2013)

Another HHS report with projected premium savings of 18% of previous expectations

http://aspe.hhs.gov/health/reports/2013/MarketCompetitionPremiums/rb_premiums.pdf

It refers to both CBO and CMS projections.  It includes links to CMS premium projections.


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## Camp (Dec 1, 2013)

Lib said:


> RandallFlagg said:
> 
> 
> > Hmmm the simple answer is as follows.
> ...



I like the 1 million dollar deal. The 1 dollar deal won't help much. Can't even buy a 32oz. slurppy with that. There is a bar in town that runs a dollar draft nite however.


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## Meister (Dec 1, 2013)

itfitzme said:


> Another HHS report with projected premium savings of 18% of previous expectations
> 
> http://aspe.hhs.gov/health/reports/2013/MarketCompetitionPremiums/rb_premiums.pdf
> 
> It refers to both CBO and CMS projections.  It includes links to CMS premium projections.



So you're paying more, just not as much as what they projected.  Gotch ya


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## itfitzme (Dec 1, 2013)

Also from HHS

Consistent data is lacking.

"There is no comprehensive source of data on premiums in the individual market, although data being gathered by the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services (CMS) will fill this gap in the future. By contrast, there is a consistent source of longitudinal, nationally representative data on premiums for employer-sponsored group insurance, the Medical Expenditure Panel Survey-Insurance Component (MEPS-IC) conducted by the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality (AHRQ) and the National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS).[4]"

Still

"In the individual market in 2012 the average rate increase implemented in the analytic sample was 8.1 percent, 30 percent (or 3.5 percentage points) lower than the 11.6 percent average in 2010. By contrast, rate increases in the group market have been relatively stable from 2009 to 2011 (data from the 2012 MEPS-IC is not yet available).[7] These results are consistent with the hypothesis that, on net, the Affordable Care Act contributed to a decrease in the rate of premium growth in the individual market."


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## itfitzme (Dec 1, 2013)

Meister said:


> itfitzme said:
> 
> 
> > Another HHS report with projected premium savings of 18% of previous expectations
> ...



Where does it say "you're paying more?"


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## Meister (Dec 1, 2013)

itfitzme said:


> Also from HHS
> 
> Consistent data is lacking.
> 
> ...


With the dismal number of paying customers Vs subsidized customers, so far 2015 looks like a disaster in waiting with premiums rising.
The 18-34 year category will gladly pay the fine than the overinflated premiums being forced on them.


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## Meister (Dec 1, 2013)

itfitzme said:


> Meister said:
> 
> 
> > itfitzme said:
> ...


I think you're not understanding what your source is telling you.  Premiums are rising, there is no question about that, but, they aren't rising as much as "projected".  

Please, show me where it says that they're paying less.


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## PMZ (Dec 1, 2013)

Why would you think that the young people would choose to pay X and get nothing,  than pay X+,  and get protection from medical bankruptcy?


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## itfitzme (Dec 1, 2013)

Nah, it is all projections, obviously, as the main provisions of PPACA don't begin until 2014.  It will be the first quarter of 2015 before we actualy know.


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## Meister (Dec 1, 2013)

itfitzme said:


> Nah, it is all projections, obviously, as the main provisions of PPACA don't begin until 2014.  It will be the first quarter of 2015 before we actualy know.


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## itfitzme (Dec 1, 2013)

Meister said:


> itfitzme said:
> 
> 
> > Meister said:
> ...



I never said they were.  I don't male shit up like you do.

For instance, it is obvious that you believe the CPI, PCE, and COLA go down every yea and that employees wages go down regularly, a "negative raise".

That is pretty dumb.


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## itfitzme (Dec 1, 2013)

Meister said:


> itfitzme said:
> 
> 
> > Nah, it is all projections, obviously, as the main provisions of PPACA don't begin until 2014.  It will be the first quarter of 2015 before we actualy know.



So you have no clue how economic data, like the GNP and GSP are gathered.  Your under the belief that the BEA has ca rystal ball and can see into the future, eh.

Prettu dumb.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Dec 1, 2013)

itfitzme said:


> Meister said:
> 
> 
> > itfitzme said:
> ...



Here's your problem obama has already admitted to lying you're defending obamacare of course you have to make shit up


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## Meister (Dec 1, 2013)

itfitzme said:


> Meister said:
> 
> 
> > itfitzme said:
> ...



You have no idea what I believe....that's pretty "dumb" on your behalf to think that.
You made a post referencing that  "projected premium savings of 18% of previous expectations".  I stated that the premiums are still going up, just not as much as projected.  Please don't be an idiot.
Remember when Obama stated we were going to save 2,500 dollars on premiums?
lies, lies, lies.....yet you'll fall for it.


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## Meister (Dec 1, 2013)

itfitzme said:


> Meister said:
> 
> 
> > itfitzme said:
> ...


You are out in left field with your posting, dude...might want to reel it back in, and stay on topic of your own posting earlier.


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## itfitzme (Dec 1, 2013)

bigrebnc1775 said:


> itfitzme said:
> 
> 
> > Meister said:
> ...



You're as brainless as the other guy.  Nowhere have I "defended obamacare".  

You're imagining things that do not exist.

I just presented the researched info I could find regarding rates.  The CBO, Kiaser, HHS and BLS are the go to sources.  

You, apparently, believe that examining objective data is "defending" something.  This explains why you don't know much.


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## Meister (Dec 1, 2013)

itfitzme said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > itfitzme said:
> ...



Seems with all the personal attacks you know what you stated, and now you can't defend it other than attacking people who disagree with you.  Might want to tone it down, it doesn't help your case.


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## itfitzme (Dec 1, 2013)

Meister said:


> itfitzme said:
> 
> 
> > Meister said:
> ...



I did't say anything about what you believe.  I presented an example like your stupid comment.  Read it again.  I said, "I don't make shit up, like you do.  *For instance*..." followed by an example of what might be infered from you bullshit.


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## bigrebnc1775 (Dec 1, 2013)

itfitzme said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
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> > itfitzme said:
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Are you saying you have never defended obamacare?


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## Meister (Dec 1, 2013)

itfitzme said:


> Meister said:
> 
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> > itfitzme said:
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Remember when you posted this?  Clearly shows that you were confused in what your source was stating.  I just wanted to clear that up for you, then your insults started flying.


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## itfitzme (Dec 1, 2013)

Meister said:


> itfitzme said:
> 
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> > Meister said:
> ...



So you believe that premiums can be known for 2014 in 2013?  Is that what you're saying?  Cuz all I can find are projections.  Perhaps you have a source for 2014 premiums.


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## Meister (Dec 1, 2013)

itfitzme said:


> Meister said:
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Really?


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## Meister (Dec 1, 2013)

itfitzme said:


> Meister said:
> 
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> > itfitzme said:
> ...



Yup, I do know what the 2014 premiums are, just go to the government healthcare site, there you will see what the 2014 premiums are.  Etched in stone for next year.  People are already signing up for them knowing what the premiums are.


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## itfitzme (Dec 1, 2013)

Meister said:


> itfitzme said:
> 
> 
> > bigrebnc1775 said:
> ...



And, you are oblivious to your own posts as in..



> I think *you're not understanding* what your source is telling you.



You were the one that made it personal.


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## RKMBrown (Dec 1, 2013)

itfitzme said:


> Meister said:
> 
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Says the libtard who demands income redistribution.


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## Meister (Dec 1, 2013)

itfitzme said:


> Meister said:
> 
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> > itfitzme said:
> ...



Reading your previous post, I was right that you didn't know what your source was telling you.  The 2014 premium rates are out for all to see, and it's not looking pretty for those who don't qualify for subsidies.  You can believe what you want, but looking at the facts that are known, people are getting hosed except for those who are being subsidized.


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## itfitzme (Dec 1, 2013)

Meister said:


> itfitzme said:
> 
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> > Meister said:
> ...



They are the estimated cost of the plan, paid up front.  The 20/80 rule requires that 80% of the premium cost be used for actual healthcare.  Like BlueCross/BlueShield has already done, at the end of  the year, rebate checks are sent out. 

No economist or business accountant would call the otherwise.  I know it's easy to assume that it is, but all aprior budgets are esrimates of expected costs and are revised after the end of the fiscal year to reflect actualo money paid.

And, not the CBO, BLS, HHS, or any other data collection agency says differently.


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## itfitzme (Dec 1, 2013)

Bored


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## itfitzme (Dec 1, 2013)

The age old phrase is

"Don't count your chickens before they've hatched."


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## itfitzme (Dec 1, 2013)

I have an example that is either understood or dem


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## Meister (Dec 1, 2013)

itfitzme said:


> Meister said:
> 
> 
> > itfitzme said:
> ...


The premiums are etched in stone as to what people are going to be paying monthly for healthcare.  Keep waiting for that rebate check, because of the low signups for non subsidized customers isn't happening, in fact, we the taxpayers will be paying the insurance companies for any shortages when the revenues aren't there.  That's another little hidden secret found in the healthcare bill that wasn't brought to light.
Enjoy your free healthcare from the dime of others, dude.


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## itfitzme (Dec 1, 2013)

I have an example that is either understood or demonstrates a dedication to ignorance.

The federal and state taxes taken out of your paycheck are properly refered to, by the IRS, as estimated taxes.  The proper number to refer to when saying how much you paid in taxes is always for the prior fiscal year and based on the number AFTER filing of a tax return and either recieving a refund or paying any additional taxes due.


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## Political Junky (Dec 2, 2013)

Of course ObamaCare *is* the alternative to Single Payer. Ignoring the fact that the Right conceived the idea of the mandate, they'll fight anything if Obama likes it.


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## Meister (Dec 2, 2013)

Political Junky said:


> Of course ObamaCare *is* the alternative to Single Payer. Ignoring the fact that the Right conceived the idea of the mandate, they'll fight anything if Obama likes it.



It doesn't have to be one or the other to get people insured. There are solutions that Obama would veto because it would go against his ideology


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## Political Junky (Dec 2, 2013)

Meister said:


> Political Junky said:
> 
> 
> > Of course ObamaCare *is* the alternative to Single Payer. Ignoring the fact that the Right conceived the idea of the mandate, they'll fight anything if Obama likes it.
> ...


Like what? Throw out a couple of those.


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## Meister (Dec 2, 2013)

Political Junky said:


> Meister said:
> 
> 
> > Political Junky said:
> ...



They've been thown out there already...


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## PMZ (Dec 2, 2013)

Meister said:


> Political Junky said:
> 
> 
> > Meister said:
> ...



Republicans have one solution that they feel applies to all problems.

Do nothing.


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## Listening (Dec 2, 2013)

PMZ said:


> Meister said:
> 
> 
> > Political Junky said:
> ...



Do you enjoy electronically jacking off in front of the rest of us ?

Republicans own 30 state houses and even more legislatures.  At the state level, they are plenty busy.

Just because your narrow MSNBC fried mind can't comprehend that there is more than one government besides the group off assholes in D.C. isn't our problem.


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## Listening (Dec 2, 2013)

Political Junky said:


> Of course ObamaCare *is* the alternative to Single Payer. Ignoring the fact that the Right conceived the idea of the mandate, they'll fight anything if Obama likes it.



I really doubt that if Obama came out and said he wanted to shyt-can the ACA that the GOP would get in his way.

I really doubt that if Obama came out and said, I am going finally start being transparent, that the GOP would complain.

I really doubt that if Obama kicked Eric Holder in his tiny little balls and then fired him, that the GOP would do anything but cheer.

Want to disagree ?


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## PMZ (Dec 2, 2013)

Listening said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > Meister said:
> ...



Somebody has to govern the states at the bottom of every list.


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## Listening (Dec 2, 2013)

PMZ said:


> Listening said:
> 
> 
> > PMZ said:
> ...



Oh so true....most of those at the bottom used to be blue states (the south).

Now, we're just trying to clean up your sorry messes.

And I am sure that sink hole they call New Jersey is down there too.

California has to be at the top....with all those cities that are flush with cash...I mean going bankrupt...and having the nations highest sales taxes.  Great job.


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## dblack (Dec 2, 2013)

Listening said:


> PMZ said:
> 
> 
> > Meister said:
> ...



You have to ask?


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## PMZ (Dec 2, 2013)

dblack said:


> Listening said:
> 
> 
> > PMZ said:
> ...



How clever are you?


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## Dante (Dec 30, 2013)

Dante said:


> bigrebnc1775 said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



bump


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## ItsOnlyMe (Dec 30, 2013)

What business is it of the government whether I have medical insurance or not?  None, that's what. I want the government OUT of my business.  Where's my "choice?"  We all know the only "choices" liberals think we should have and they revolve around sex and drugs.  Period.  How many liberals have actually owned a business and had to pay employees and all the other overhead owning a business entails?  Be interesting to see what they paid their people.  The elder Kennedys were notoriously cheap and definitely would have balked at having to pay their employees a high minimum wage.   For the liberals on here who want the government running their lives, move to Cuba or North Korea.  You won't be able to fart without government permission.


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## Dante (Dec 30, 2013)

ItsOnlyMe said:


> *What business is it of the government whether I have medical insurance or not?  None, that's what.*
> 
> I want the government OUT of my business.  Where's my "choice?"
> 
> ...



*Wrong. The government, meaning the tax payers, end up picking up the bill when you don't have insurance. So society makes it the government's business. We the people*

You have a choice of whether to buy insurance or pay the penalty.

Step out of the bubble. Most democrats who own businesses give donations to the party. stop acting like such an idiot


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## ItsOnlyMe (Dec 30, 2013)

Dante said:


> ItsOnlyMe said:
> 
> 
> > *What business is it of the government whether I have medical insurance or not?  None, that's what.*
> ...



Don't call ME any of your family names, honey.   So they "give to the party"  oooh I'm IMPRESSED!  Again, I have worked in the healthcare field for 43 years! I KNOW how it works.  I KNOW that the ERs HAVE to treat people whether or not they have the insurance.  It is STILL not the government's business.  AND you can't convince me that Obama, Hillary or Nancy give a rat's rear end whether any us have it or not.  It is the power, that's all they care about.  I never made it the government's business.  Speak for yourself.  The government works for US, or have you forgotten that? The government is a parasite living off of us.  You don't seem too worried about the taxpayer picking up the tab for the people on welfare and other low lifes, do you?  Democrats give donation to the "party" allright, that's about they are good for is a "party".

And that "you have a choice, you can buy it or the pay the penalty"  -  it's a punishment if you don't, that's like when you tell your kids they have a choice, they can abide by your rules or pay the consequences.   You can sell heroin or go to jail, it's your choice.   If that isn't the stupidest thing!  A choice would be no consequences if you did or didn't.   But if they did THAT, nobody would buy it.   So they have to force us, to threaten us.   Like North Korea.   Wake up!


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## Meister (Dec 30, 2013)

ItsOnlyMe said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > ItsOnlyMe said:
> ...



Excellent post.


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## Dante (Dec 30, 2013)

ItsOnlyMe said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > ItsOnlyMe said:
> ...



The government doesn't work for us idiot, they represent us. We are the government. WE, not you and your 4 friends, we 'the people'  


Like North Korea?  The moral equivalency is imbecilic


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## Dante (Dec 30, 2013)

Meister said:


> ItsOnlyMe said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



On one hand you people call them ideologues, and then you call them unprincipled seekers of power as if they had no ideology or principles that drive them

It is people like you all who are destroying the American polity. You are becoming the 'enemy within'


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## Meister (Dec 30, 2013)

Dante said:


> ItsOnlyMe said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...



That's how the Founding Fathers had envisioned it, but not how it's working out these days.
Obamacare just an excellent example on how they aren't representing us these days, dante


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## Meister (Dec 30, 2013)

Dante said:


> Meister said:
> 
> 
> > ItsOnlyMe said:
> ...



You need to get your head out of Obama's......ahem, echo chamber, dante.


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## paulitician (Dec 31, 2013)

Very few Americans are clamoring for an alternative at this point. They just want this one gone. The alternative is to simply scrap this disaster.


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## Meister (Dec 31, 2013)

paulitician said:


> Very few Americans are clamoring for an alternative at this point. They just want this one gone. The alternative is to simply scrap this disaster.



The dems shot themselves in the foot trying to attain their ultimate goal of single payer by trying Obamacare.  America got to see our government in action.....and it wasn't pretty.
They couldn't even get the easy part (website) done.


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## WillowTree (Dec 31, 2013)

MarcATL said:


> And who is pushing it?
> 
> Does anyone really believe that the Republicans want to help Americans get good health insurance?



How do you figure that kicking six million off their plans is helping? Have you lost your freaking mind?


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## Dot Com (Dec 31, 2013)

quelle surprise!!!  


> The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to WillowTree For This Useful Post:
> MeBelle60 (Today), Meister (Today)



Newt Gingrich: Republicans Rip Obamacare, but Have Zero Answer for Alternatives


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## Meister (Dec 31, 2013)

Dot Com said:


> quelle surprise!!!
> 
> 
> > The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to WillowTree For This Useful Post:
> ...



So now Newt carries weight with you libs, eh? 

Anything that the repubs present get shelved in the Senate.  Not debated, not amended and sent back, just shelved.  You guys own obamacare....period


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## Dot Com (Dec 31, 2013)

Do Repubs have a bill ready to go yet dealing w/ Health care?  

Newt Gingrich: Republicans Rip Obamacare, but Have &#8216;Zero Answer&#8217; for Alternatives



> &#8220;I would bet for most of you, you go home in the next two weeks while your members of Congress are home and you look at them in the eye and you say, &#8216;What is your positive replacement for Obamacare?&#8217; and they will have zero answer,&#8221; Gingrich told state party chairs, activists, and operatives at the Republican National Committee summer meeting. &#8220;We are caught up right now in a culture &#8211; and you see it every single day &#8211; where as long as we are negative, as long as we are vicious, as long as we can tear down our opponent, we don&#8217;t have to worry, so we don&#8217;t.
> 
> &#8220;This is a very deep problem,&#8221; he added. &#8220;I&#8217;m being totally candid with you.&#8221;



He knows you can't win national elections without having positive ideas.


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## Bfgrn (Jan 1, 2014)

Dot Com said:


> quelle surprise!!!
> 
> 
> > The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to WillowTree For This Useful Post:
> ...



Not true...

Gingrichs Health Care Group Supports a Mandate

The Gingrich Group's most prominent project is the Center for Health Transformation, a for-profit outfit Gingrich launched in 2003 that works with clients to "drive transformation" within the health care system. The center promotes numerous programs, including its "Insure All Americans" initiative, which is run by Vincent Frakes, who previously worked on behalf of pharmaceutical companies at the lobbying and PR firm Bonner & Associates.

Here's a screenshot of the website, with the relevant section highlighted:







That's a mandate. That's the current position of Gingrich's Center for Health Transformation. There's no ambiguity. (The Gingrich campaign did not respond to a request for comment.)

Of late, Gingrich has had an ever-shifting position on mandates. This past spring, on Meet the Press, he noted that he has "consistently" supported "some requirement" where "you either have health insurance or you post a bond or in some way you indicate you're going to be held accountable." But quickly afterward, his campaign released a video in which the former House speaker proclaimed he was against mandates:

    I am completely opposed to the Obamacare mandate on individuals. I fought it for two and half years at the Center for Health TransformationI am against any effort to impose a federal mandate on anyone because it is fundamentally wrong and I believe unconstitutional.

Gingrich neglected to mention that his Center for Health Transformation supports a mandate for anyone making over $50,000 a year.


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## RKMBrown (Jan 1, 2014)

Bfgrn said:


> Dot Com said:
> 
> 
> > quelle surprise!!!
> ...



You are an idiot, you don't know what a bond is?


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## dblack (Jan 1, 2014)

RKMBrown said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > Dot Com said:
> ...



It's still the same guilty-until-proven-innocent bullshit. Newt is statist tool.


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## Bfgrn (Jan 1, 2014)

RKMBrown said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > Dot Com said:
> ...



Is it FREE to post a bond? Isn't the going rate around 10%? What is 10% of $50,000?


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## RKMBrown (Jan 1, 2014)

Bfgrn said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Bfgrn said:
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We believe that there should be a must-carry  that is, everybody should have health insurance. Or, if youre an absolute libertarian, we would allow you to post a bond. But we would not allow people to be free-riders failing to insure themselves and then showing  up at the emergency room with no means of payment.

Gingrich also expressed similar sentiments as recently as May 2011 in an appearance on Meet the Press. On the show Gingrich said, Ive said consistently that we ought to have some requirement that you either have health insurance, or you post a bond, or in some way you indicate youre going to be held accountable.

Newt Gingrich proposed surety bonds as alternative to mandated health insurance


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## dblack (Jan 1, 2014)

RKMBrown said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



LOL... and that's meaningfully different from the mandate how exactly??


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## Bfgrn (Jan 1, 2014)

RKMBrown said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



You didn't answer my question. I posting a bond FREE?

     The Facts 

Gingrich and Romney engaged in a brief but heated spat during the Oct. 18 GOP debate after the former speaker criticized Massachusettss health-care reform program as a big-government, high-cost solution for covering the uninsured. Heres how the exchange unfolded:

    Romney: Actually, Newt, we got the idea of an individual mandate from you.

    Gingrich: Thats not true. You got it from the Heritage Foundation.

    Romney: Yes, we got it from you, and you got it from the Heritage Foundation and from you.

    Gingrich: Wait a second. What you just said is not true. You did not get that from me. You got it from the Heritage Foundation.

    Romney: And you never supported them?

    Gingrich: I agree with them, but Im just saying, what you said to this audience just now plain wasnt true.

    Romney: OK. Let me ask, have you supported in the past an individual mandate?

    Gingrich: I absolutely did with the Heritage Foundation against Hillarycare.

Sounds like a gotcha moment. Gingrich unequivocally denies that he deserves any credit for mandates, then admits that he absolutely did support the idea in the past.


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## RKMBrown (Jan 1, 2014)

dblack said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Bfgrn said:
> ...



How is requiring people pay their health care bills different than mandating they buy insurance?  Are you retarded?


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## RKMBrown (Jan 1, 2014)

Bfgrn said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Bfgrn said:
> ...



IOW.. you are mentally handicapped.  So much so in fact that you don't know the difference between mandating people pay their bills and mandating people buy insurance.  What a freaking retard.


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## dblack (Jan 1, 2014)

RKMBrown said:


> dblack said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



Jeezus.... this is why I don't think there's a dimes worth of difference between Democrats and Republicans these days. Please go on channeling PMZ ....


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## Bfgrn (Jan 1, 2014)

RKMBrown said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



You are a REAL retard. Gingrich IS mandating people buy insurance OR post a bond. You CAN'T mandate people pay their bills you fucking MORON.


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## RKMBrown (Jan 1, 2014)

Bfgrn said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Bfgrn said:
> ...



HAVING TO PAY YOUR HEALTH CARE BILLS USED TO BE THE LAW MORON.  What's next you can steal your house and car to?


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## dblack (Jan 1, 2014)

RKMBrown said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



And it should be the law again. No need for mandates - for insurance or bonds.


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## Bfgrn (Jan 1, 2014)

RKMBrown said:


> Bfgrn said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
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You folks really are authoritarians. 

The United States eliminated the imprisonment of debtors under federal law in 1833


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## Dot Com (Jan 1, 2014)

Bfgrn said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Bfgrn said:
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as long as it doesn't have any elements of Heritagecare..... errr..... O'care, they're alright w/ it


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## Sarah G (Jan 1, 2014)

There is no such animal ...


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## MarcATL (Jan 1, 2014)

Dot Com said:


> Do Repubs have a bill ready to go yet dealing w/ Health care?
> 
> Newt Gingrich: Republicans Rip Obamacare, but Have Zero Answer for Alternatives
> 
> ...


They have NO plan. Zip, zilch, zero, nada, none.




Bfgrn said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Bfgrn said:
> ...


If Republicans didn't lie, they'd have nothing to say.


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## Dot Com (Jan 1, 2014)

their plan is to turn market forces loose just like they were in 2007 on Wall St


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## paulitician (Jan 2, 2014)

And if you don't have Health Insurance...You're a Criminal, subject to fine and imprisonment. How could anyone be celebrating this stuff? Obama and our Government just created another Law to control & oppress the People. More good Citizens to fine and imprison. Just the way this Police/Prison State likes it. This is nothing to celebrate. What a travesty.


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## dblack (Jan 2, 2014)

paulitician said:


> And if you don't have Health Insurance...You're a Criminal, subject to fine and imprisonment. How could anyone be celebrating this stuff? Obama and our Government just created another Law to control & oppress the People. More good Citizens to fine and imprison. Just the way this Police/Prison State likes it. This is nothing to celebrate. What a travesty.



Yeah... I don't get it either. They seem fixated on the single payer pipedream, apparently thinking that whatever misery they drag us through on the way is worth it. 

Regardless of whether or not that is a laudable goal, it's not where ACA is headed. I think some of them are beginning to realize they've been duped.


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## paulitician (Jan 2, 2014)

dblack said:


> paulitician said:
> 
> 
> > And if you don't have Health Insurance...You're a Criminal, subject to fine and imprisonment. How could anyone be celebrating this stuff? Obama and our Government just created another Law to control & oppress the People. More good Citizens to fine and imprison. Just the way this Police/Prison State likes it. This is nothing to celebrate. What a travesty.
> ...



Most people are all for providing access to affordable Health Care to everyone. But this is not the way to do it. This is force and punishment. It's not what our nation is about. Shame on all who are cheerleading for this.


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## Meister (Jan 2, 2014)

I wonder if the Bill would have ever passed if these politicians actually read and understood the Bill before it passed?
I wonder if they're actually good with  the government mandating what type of insurance everyone must have?
I wonder if they actually understood that Obamacare would go far beyond just insuring those without insurance?

I think that the democrats and the twits on this board are in damage control trying to defend the debacle.
Democrats running for re-election are now running away from Obamacare, this speaks volumes.

Pelosi...."We have to pass the Bill to see what's in the Bill."
I hope capital hill learned a lesson from the words of this bitch.


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## paulitician (Jan 3, 2014)

dblack said:


> paulitician said:
> 
> 
> > And if you don't have Health Insurance...You're a Criminal, subject to fine and imprisonment. How could anyone be celebrating this stuff? Obama and our Government just created another Law to control & oppress the People. More good Citizens to fine and imprison. Just the way this Police/Prison State likes it. This is nothing to celebrate. What a travesty.
> ...



The Police/Prison State has just created Millions more 'Criminals' who are not criminals. I just don't get all the celebrations. Too many Americans are just so ignorant. "If Obama said it, it must be right." What a mess.


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## Dante (Dec 19, 2014)

MarcATL said:


> And who is pushing it?
> 
> Does anyone really believe that the Republicans want to help Americans get good health insurance?




Kill the Bill? that failed. Now Gut the Bill?


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## RKMBrown (Dec 19, 2014)

Dante said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > And who is pushing it?
> ...


Did I miss something? Did the republicans take over the senate yet?  I thought Dirty Harry was still running it.


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## Dante (Dec 19, 2014)

RKMBrown said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > MarcATL said:
> ...




The GOP had to control the Senate to put forth a bill? The House? Even Senate Republicans could have told us what they have to offer?


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## RKMBrown (Dec 19, 2014)

Dante said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...


The GOP put forth bills the Senate (Harry) is sitting on hundreds of them.  More particularly the House voted 54 times on amendments to ACA, Harry's not letting much of what comes out of the house to even get into debate.


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## Dante (Dec 19, 2014)

RKMBrown said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



Amend the PPACA in what way?  

please, stop being a disingenuous tool


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## RKMBrown (Dec 19, 2014)

Dante said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...


Read for yourself.

The House has voted 54 times in four years on Obamacare. Here 8217 s the full list. - The Washington Post


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## Dante (Dec 19, 2014)

RKMBrown said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
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All meant to kill or gut the law. That's their alternative?  geesh


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## Dot Com (Dec 19, 2014)

I'm beginning to wonder if Repubs even have an alternative


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## RKMBrown (Dec 19, 2014)

Dot Com said:


> I'm beginning to wonder if Repubs even have an alternative


Yeah cause personal responsibility, liberty, and capitalism has never worked.


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## RKMBrown (Dec 19, 2014)

Dante said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Dante said:
> ...


Well what is the democrat alternative to this POS?


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## Dante (Dec 19, 2014)

RKMBrown said:


> Dante said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...



Give them the House and Senate back and we'll see


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## Dot Com (Dec 19, 2014)

RKMBrown said:


> Dot Com said:
> 
> 
> > I'm beginning to wonder if Repubs even have an alternative
> ...


good non-answer assswipe. Care to try again? What specific plan has Republicorp drawn-up to keep people from having to lose their house when they go to the hospital for any length of time?


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## RKMBrown (Dec 19, 2014)

Dot Com said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Dot Com said:
> ...


Why the HELL SHOULD I HAVE TO BUY A HOUSE FOR YOU?


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## Dot Com (Dec 20, 2014)

RKMBrown said:


> Dot Com said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
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another non-answer  

You were already paying for people w/o insurance going to the ER shit stain. It was a "stealth tax" you dupe.

You really don't know much about the issue now do you?

so again, I ask you for the 3rd time shit stain: What is the GObP's alternative plan to address the uninsured and consequential escalating premiums for people who do?

Never mind you rw hive mind assclown.


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## dblack (Dec 21, 2014)

RKMBrown said:


> Dot Com said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
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You won't see much. The vested interests in the Republican party are just as beholden to the insurance industry as the Democrats are. At most they'll rearrange a few things and pretend they've done something. But they'll keep the corporatist core of ACA in place.


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## CowboyTed (Dec 22, 2014)

oreo said:


> MarcATL said:
> 
> 
> > And who is pushing it?
> ...




1.  Insurance companies being able to cross state lines--bringing in more competition, thereby lowering premiums.
Well that would mean that Insurance would come under Federal jurisdiction and taking power away from the states. How does that go down in the GOP.

2 . Small business being able to group together to get the same lower rates as large corporations get, thereby making it affordable to cover employees that work for small business.
What did you think Obamacare was.

3.  Tort reform
Red Herring.


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## dblack (Dec 22, 2014)

CowboyTed said:


> > Yes, and they have said it for years--but you and all your liberal friends never listened.
> >
> > 1.  Insurance companies being able to cross state lines--bringing in more competition, thereby lowering premiums.
> > 2 . Small business being able to group together to get the same lower rates as large corporations get, thereby making it affordable to cover employees that work for small business.
> ...



Probably poorly for some. But it's using the Commerce Clause as it was actually intended - to prevent states from erecting barriers to trade.





> 2 . Small business being able to group together to get the same lower rates as large corporations get, thereby making it affordable to cover employees that work for small business.
> What did you think Obamacare was.



An insurance industry bailout.


> 3.  Tort reform
> Red Herring.



Agreed.


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## RKMBrown (Dec 29, 2014)

Dot Com said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Dot Com said:
> ...


You are a moron.  The alternative to the current situation is to go back to the good old days when people were responsible for their bills.  The reason the costs went up is you morons that let people get shit for free, thus passing their bills to paying customers


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## longknife (Dec 29, 2014)

I dropped out of this thread some time ago for this reason:

Conservatives have repeatedly posted links to where the House has passed and sent numerous bills to the Senate seeking to overhaul portions of a very bad piece of legislation.

The Obamabots here totally ignore those posts and continue their uninformed, pre-programmed, and inane posts. 

Trying to inform the brainwashed is a total waste of time!


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## boilermaker55 (Dec 29, 2014)

Maybe you need to do some research before you make some bullshit statement like you made.
Ever check out the bankruptcy rate of corporations and the wealthy.
Who is left holding the bill for those morons? Think about that.





RKMBrown said:


> Dot Com said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...


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## Dot Com (Dec 29, 2014)

RKMBrown said:


> You are a moron.  The alternative to the current situation is to go back to the good old days when people were responsible for their bills.  The reason the costs went up is you morons that let people get shit for free, thus passing their bills to paying customers


ROFL "the good 'ol days when HC ate up 17% of GDP and people were forced into bankruptcy after a stay in the hospital industrial insurance complex? THOSE "good 'ol days" shit stain?

Medical bills prompt more than 60 percent of U.S. bankruptcies - CNN.com

why do you people hate America & Americans?


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## RKMBrown (Dec 29, 2014)

Dot Com said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > You are a moron.  The alternative to the current situation is to go back to the good old days when people were responsible for their bills.  The reason the costs went up is you morons that let people get shit for free, thus passing their bills to paying customers
> ...


The reason the prices went up, YA MORON, is because morons like you didn't pay their bills and the government forced the health care industry to pass your bills onto the paying public.  Thus skyrocketing the cost.  Further, if you want to extend your life with millions of dollars in operations who the duck do you think is gonna pay for it if you won't even sell your house to pay your bills?  HUH?  Why the duck do I have to mortgage my house to pay for your operations ya moron?  We can't afford to give morons like you millions of dollars in health care.  We don't have the resources to make everyone the six million dollar man.


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## Dot Com (Dec 29, 2014)

RKMBrown said:


> Dot Com said:
> 
> 
> > RKMBrown said:
> ...


so the gubment was "forcing" insurance co's to pass on their losses to the patients pre-Obamacare?  On which planet did this occur Skippy? They did it because they could shit stain not because of some order from the gubment.


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## RKMBrown (Dec 29, 2014)

Dot Com said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Dot Com said:
> ...


God you're a moron.  Health care industry does not EQUAL health insurance.  Do you need help changing your diaper?


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## Dot Com (Dec 29, 2014)

RKMBrown said:


> The reason the prices went up, YA MORON, is because morons like you didn't pay their bills and *the government forced the health care industry* to pass your bills onto the paying public.



link Skippy


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## Dot Com (Jan 22, 2015)

15,312 views. Repubs pass any meaningful legislation yet? :yawn: Who am I kidding,  of course they haven't


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## Conservative65 (Jan 22, 2015)

Dot Com said:


> 15,312 views. Repubs pass any meaningful legislation yet? :yawn: Who am I kidding,  of course they haven't


 
Since 4 of 5 buying their insurance on the exchanges gets a subsidy forcibly funded by someone else, please tell me you don't consider that meaningful. 

Here's my proposal for you bleeding hearts.  If you know or know of someone that doesn't have coverage, pay their premiums with YOUR money instead of expecting taxpayers to subsidize it.


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## Conservative65 (Jan 22, 2015)

Dot Com said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Dot Com said:
> ...


 
Indirectly


Dot Com said:


> I'm beginning to wonder if Repubs even have an alternative


 You pay your bills or anyone for whom you choose and I'll pay mine.


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## Conservative65 (Jan 22, 2015)

Dante said:


> ItsOnlyMe said:
> 
> 
> > *What business is it of the government whether I have medical insurance or not?  None, that's what.*
> ...


 
What about those in society that don't pay the very taxes used to pick up the bill?


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## RKMBrown (Jan 22, 2015)

Dot Com said:


> 15,312 views. Repubs pass any meaningful legislation yet? :yawn: Who am I kidding,  of course they haven't


LYING POS


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## Dot Com (Jan 22, 2015)

RKMBrown said:


> Dot Com said:
> 
> 
> > 15,312 views. Repubs pass any meaningful legislation yet? :yawn: Who am I kidding,  of course they haven't
> ...


OH!!! What meaningful legislation have they passed shit stain?


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## Conservative65 (Jan 22, 2015)

Dot Com said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Dot Com said:
> ...


 The shit stain is anyone that think Obamacare is meaningful.


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## RKMBrown (Jan 22, 2015)

Dot Com said:


> RKMBrown said:
> 
> 
> > Dot Com said:
> ...


screw you ya lying POS


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## dblack (Jan 22, 2015)

Dot Com said:


> 15,312 views. Repubs pass any meaningful legislation yet? :yawn: Who am I kidding,  of course they haven't



And they won't. For the same reason the Dems won't.


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