# We don't need no stinkin Dept of Education!



## BDBoop (Sep 5, 2011)

Bachmann: Why do we need a Department of Education, anyway? « Hot Air

Or so it seems.



> Painting herself as a constitutional conservative Minnesota Rep. Michele Bachmann told Sen. Jim DeMints forum Monday that if elected president she would look to get rid of the Department of Education, among other things.


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## Gadawg73 (Sep 5, 2011)

We could do with probably about 10-20% of what is now the Dept. of Education.
Anything and everything uniform policy for all states goes immediately.
Education is not a function of the Federal government.


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## jillian (Sep 5, 2011)

BDBoop said:


> Bachmann: Why do we need a Department of Education, anyway? « Hot Air
> 
> Or so it seems.
> 
> ...



yes... because it's so much easier to teach religion as science when you do away with standards.


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## SFC Ollie (Sep 5, 2011)

Can''t think of any where in the constitution that gives the Federal Government any control over education. I believe that should be up to the individual State....


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## Gadawg73 (Sep 5, 2011)

I am not a Bachmann supporter but she is 80% right on this one.


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## rightwinger (Sep 5, 2011)

SFC Ollie said:


> Can''t think of any where in the constitution that gives the Federal Government any control over education. I believe that should be up to the individual State....



Percentage wise, the federal government has minimal control over education. Most is still at the local level.


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## AVG-JOE (Sep 5, 2011)

BDBoop said:


> Bachmann: Why do we need a Department of Education, anyway? « Hot Air
> 
> Or so it seems.
> 
> ...



Whatever the bureaucracy used to manage it, education is the key to living any way but wild.  

In a society, learn to do something or be dependent on one tit or another for life.  We, The People, owe it to ourselves to help us each to learn how to do *somethin'*.


  Besides... it'll help keep the streets tidy for the tourists!


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## Quantum Windbag (Sep 5, 2011)

BDBoop said:


> Bachmann: Why do we need a Department of Education, anyway? « Hot Air
> 
> Or so it seems.
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> ...



Do you have an answer to the question, or are you just acting outraged because you think it is an extreme position without knowing why?


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## Quantum Windbag (Sep 5, 2011)

jillian said:


> BDBoop said:
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Like No Child Left Behind, which Arne Duncan plans to exempt states from compliance with?


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## AVG-JOE (Sep 5, 2011)

rightwinger said:


> SFC Ollie said:
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> > Can''t think of any where in the constitution that gives the Federal Government any control over education. I believe that should be up to the individual State....
> ...



AVG-SIS disagrees and she is on a school board.  She calls them 'unfunded mandates'.

Some of which make general sense, but many are forced on schools and districts where it just doesn't make sense.

There's something about the baby and the bath-water in this... We, The People of The Whole Fucking Place *should* maintain a vested interest in making sure the children of the Great State of Mississippi are afforded all the same opportunities for home-town growth and development or world travel following their dreams as all the little dudes and dudetts hanging 10 in California.  But nobody knows better where the opportunities of any given region will be over the next 20 years than The People of The Great State of ......, so local control is essential, eh?


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## Big Fitz (Sep 5, 2011)

BDBoop said:


> Bachmann: Why do we need a Department of Education, anyway? « Hot Air
> 
> Or so it seems.
> 
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Find the constitutional power that grants the feddies to be involved in education without having to shoe horn the definition to fit your desire.


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## Big Fitz (Sep 5, 2011)

jillian said:


> bdboop said:
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> > bachmann: Why do we need a department of education, anyway? « hot air
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you leave global warming alone!


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## rdean (Sep 5, 2011)

BDBoop said:


> Bachmann: Why do we need a Department of Education, anyway? « Hot Air
> 
> Or so it seems.
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She also want's to get rid of the EPA.

Ever notice how those that want to get rid of education are all stupid?


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## Gadawg73 (Sep 5, 2011)

AVG-JOE said:


> rightwinger said:
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With over 100 billion a year spent and rising the education system of Mississippi is getting worse than what it was when there was no Dept. of Education. 

Education is parents. Attempting to throw $$ to change bad parents is like attempting to legislate morality. 
As hard as thou shall try, thou can never polish a TURD.


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## Gadawg73 (Sep 5, 2011)

rdean said:


> BDBoop said:
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She is an idiot for suggesting to get rid of EPA.


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## Big Fitz (Sep 5, 2011)

rdean said:


> BDBoop said:
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> > Bachmann: Why do we need a Department of Education, anyway? « Hot Air
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Who has been running the public education system for the last 50 years again?  It's been so successful we've been consistantly dropping every decade in comparison to other nations.  It's time for a flat out change away from a system that has a track record of not working.


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## rdean (Sep 5, 2011)

Gadawg73 said:


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An awful lot of Republicans agree with her.


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## AVG-JOE (Sep 5, 2011)

Gadawg73 said:


> AVG-JOE said:
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You seem to have a pretty low opinion of The People of the Great State of Mississippi.  It was just an example - Same could be true for The People of The Great State of Rhode Island or Montana.

The point is that micro managing curriculum should NOT be the purview of the federal government, but setting minimum standards for education should.  When I hire a high school graduate from another state, I don't want to have to question him on his ability to read, write & cipher a bit.


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## Big Fitz (Sep 5, 2011)

rdean said:


> Gadawg73 said:
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I would just want the EPA reverted back to the regulation levels they had in the 1980s.


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## Gadawg73 (Sep 5, 2011)

We just had the largest cheating scandal in the history of this country on the standardized tests in the Atlanta Public School system.
What the fuck good did the US Dept. of Education do in all of that mess?
Their "standards" caused most of it.


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## Gadawg73 (Sep 5, 2011)

AVG-JOE said:


> Gadawg73 said:
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I was also using it as an example same as you. 
Oxford was a hard place to play back in the day and I have always respected Ole Miss.


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## Ernie S. (Sep 5, 2011)

rdean said:


> BDBoop said:
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I had no idea you wanted to get rid of education!


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## whitehall (Sep 5, 2011)

What right do federal bureaucrats have to set education standards? Why do libs fear the 1st Amendment so much?


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## Ernie S. (Sep 5, 2011)

rdean said:


> Gadawg73 said:
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What you libs fail to grasp is that Conservative have no problem with education or environmental protection. We feel education can best be controlled by localities and states.
As far as the EPA, there should be laws against polluting the environment. We just don't feel that the executive branch should have the ability to bypass the Constitution and unilaterally make law.


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## Big Fitz (Sep 5, 2011)

Ernie S. said:


> rdean said:
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All regulations that have been made by any regulatory agency or branch should have to pass a simple majority in congress and or be denied, and cannot be made into riders onto other legislation.  Same as judicial rulings and findings that create law.


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## Quantum Windbag (Sep 5, 2011)

rdean said:


> BDBoop said:
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> > Bachmann: Why do we need a Department of Education, anyway? « Hot Air
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If that were true you would want to get rid if the Department of Education.


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## Woyzeck (Sep 5, 2011)

Big Fitz said:


> rdean said:
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The states?


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## ladyliberal (Sep 5, 2011)

Big Fitz said:


> rdean said:
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Who has been running the public education system for the last 50 years again? Overwhelmingly, state and local governments. Those governments have almost total control over curricula, and spend more than ten times as much on education as the federal government does.

Who collects the standardized data on US schools which tells you that we're dropping in comparison to other nations? The US Department of Education.

Your post relies on a service provided by the federal government while attempting to blame the federal government for poor results in an area in which state and local governments exercise primary control.

(I don't mean to blame disappointing test scores on state and local governments. Part of the problem is a matter of American culture, not government. Another big part is that other countries are improving, making American's appear more poorly educated in comparison.)


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Sep 5, 2011)

> Can''t think of any where in the constitution that gives the Federal Government any control over education. I believe that should be up to the individual State....


Can you think of anything in the Constitution that prohibits the creation of the Department of Education? Has the constitutionality of the Department ever been challenged in Federal court? And if so what was the outcome? 



> What you libs fail to grasp is that Conservative have no problem with education or environmental protection. We feel education can best be controlled by localities and states.



What conservatives fail to understand is that liberals have no problem with the above. The problem is there are many more important issues which need to be addressed before getting rid of the Department of Education. And if it is to be gotten rid of, do so for factual, objective reasons, not to conform to rightist dogma. 



> As far as the EPA, there should be laws against polluting the environment. We just don't feel that the executive branch should have the ability to bypass the Constitution and unilaterally make law.



Cite an example of the Executive bypassing the Constitution and unilaterally making law with regard to the EPA.  

If you&#8217;re referring to the regulation of greenhouse gas emissions, the Court ruled that activity Constitutional in _American Electric Power Co. v. Connecticut_ (2011).


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## bripat9643 (Sep 5, 2011)

That's why I send whatever I can afford to her campaign.  First, the Dept of Ed, then the rest of the ABC agencies.




BDBoop said:


> Bachmann: Why do we need a Department of Education, anyway? « Hot Air
> 
> Or so it seems.
> 
> ...


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## Ernie S. (Sep 5, 2011)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> > Can''t think of any where in the constitution that gives the Federal Government any control over education. I believe that should be up to the individual State....
> 
> 
> Can you think of anything in the Constitution that prohibits the creation of the Department of Education? Has the constitutionality of the Department ever been challenged in Federal court? And if so what was the outcome?
> ...


Read the decision. You'll find that it did no such thing.


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## bripat9643 (Sep 5, 2011)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> > Can''t think of any where in the constitution that gives the Federal Government any control over education. I believe that should be up to the individual State....
> 
> 
> Can you think of anything in the Constitution that prohibits the creation of the Department of Education? Has the constitutionality of the Department ever been challenged in Federal court? And if so what was the outcome?



It's called the 10th Amendment.  All powers not enumerated in the Constitution are reserved to the states.



C_Clayton_Jones said:


> > What you libs fail to grasp is that Conservative have no problem with education or environmental protection. We feel education can best be controlled by localities and states.
> 
> 
> 
> What conservatives fail to understand is that liberals have no problem with the above. The problem is there are many more important issues which need to be addressed before getting rid of the Department of Education. And if it is to be gotten rid of, do so for factual, objective reasons, not to conform to rightist dogma.



Yeah, right.  Congress just doesn't have the time to get rid of it.  That must be why they fight tooth and nail every time the issue is brought up, right?

Libturds kill me!



C_Clayton_Jones said:


> > As far as the EPA, there should be laws against polluting the environment. We just don't feel that the executive branch should have the ability to bypass the Constitution and unilaterally make law.
> 
> 
> 
> Cite an example of the Executive bypassing the Constitution and unilaterally making law with regard to the EPA.



The EPA's recent recent ruling the CO2 is a pollutant that they are authorized regulate.  They have no such authority.



C_Clayton_Jones said:


> If youre referring to the regulation of greenhouse gas emissions, the Court ruled that activity Constitutional in _American Electric Power Co. v. Connecticut_ (2011).



You have devolved to saying that the Constitution is whatever the Supreme Court says it is.   That position is obvious bullshit.


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## bripat9643 (Sep 5, 2011)

Woyzeck said:


> Big Fitz said:
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> > Who has been running the public education system for the last 50 years again?  It's been so successful we've been consistantly dropping every decade in comparison to other nations.  It's time for a flat out change away from a system that has a track record of not working.
> ...



Liberals.  Furthermore, the Dept of Education was created 40 years ago.


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## psikeyhackr (Sep 6, 2011)

Well if that can't create a *National Recommended Reading List* then what good are they.

100 books for kindergarten, 200 for 1st grade, 300 for 2nd grade etc.

So K-12 would be fewer than 10,000 books.  How many millions of dollars are in their budget?

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psik


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## Woyzeck (Sep 6, 2011)

bripat9643 said:


> Woyzeck said:
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So _all_ of the states are filled with liberals?

This still has nothing to do with the Department of Education.


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## Quantum Windbag (Sep 6, 2011)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Can you think of anything in the Constitution that prohibits the creation of the Department of Education?



Yes.



> The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor  prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively,  or to the people.



That means that, unless you can point to something that specifically spells it out, it is prohibited. 



C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Has the constitutionalty of the Department ever been challenged in Federal court? And if so what was the outcome?



Would the fact that it has never been challenged prove it is Constitutional?



C_Clayton_Jones said:


> What conservatives fail to understand is that liberals have no problem with the above. The problem is there are many more important issues which need to be addressed before getting rid of the Department of Education. And if it is to be gotten rid of, do so for factual, objective reasons, not to conform to rightist dogma.



Wouldn't getting rid of the Department of Education free up money for some of those things that are more important?



C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Cite an example of the Executive bypassing the Constitution and unilaterally making law with regard to the EPA.



Under Bush or Obama?

Bush used the office to lower emissions standards. Obama was using it to implement new, tighter standards before the legislated review period came up.

If I put some thought into it I could probably find examples under every president since the EPA was created under Nixon.



C_Clayton_Jones said:


> If youre referring to the regulation of greenhouse gas emissions, the Court ruled that activity Constitutional in _American Electric Power Co. v. Connecticut_ (2011).



Of course the court did, the EPA wanted them to. The EPA gets sued, loses, and pays the people who sued them to sue them again. Then they issue new regulations.


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## Skull Pilot (Sep 6, 2011)

jillian said:


> BDBoop said:
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> > Bachmann: Why do we need a Department of Education, anyway? « Hot Air
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Funny you talk about standards.

Since the Dept of Ed was created in the 70s our students have fallen behind in every measurable way compared to many students on other countries.

Before the DOE our students put men on the moon with naught but slide rules since the DOE our students can't make change for a dollar without a calculator.


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## syrenn (Sep 6, 2011)

rdean said:


> BDBoop said:
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So where does that put leave you? 



If you say...educated AND stupid... i give up.


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## jillian (Sep 6, 2011)

SFC Ollie said:


> Can''t think of any where in the constitution that gives the Federal Government any control over education. I believe that should be up to the individual State....



let me help, ollie... it's not up to the individual states because a) there's no reason to; and b) the states can't be trusted on their own. on their own, some of them like teaching creationism as science.... 

which is why there are national standards.

as for what permits things like the department of education, i'll refer you to the constitution's general welfare clause. it's bad for the country to have a bunch of undereducated or miseducated people running around.


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## syrenn (Sep 6, 2011)

jillian said:


> SFC Ollie said:
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> > Can''t think of any where in the constitution that gives the Federal Government any control over education. I believe that should be up to the individual State....
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True.. but as it stands now... its not working. 


I know when i threaten the life of some plant of mine....like ripping it out of its comfy hole by its roots and tossing it into the green pile... it has a miraculous recovery and does much better.


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## Skull Pilot (Sep 6, 2011)

jillian said:


> as for what permits things like the department of education, i'll refer you to the constitution's general welfare clause. it's bad for the country to have a bunch of undereducated or miseducated people running around.



Almost every high school grad is undereducated.

They can't write for shit, can't do basic math without a calculator don't know squat about history or geography.


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## editec (Sep 6, 2011)

I find is somewhat suspicious that the right claims they hate the FEDERALIZATION of education given that* it was the GOP that initiated* *the most ambitious FEDERALIZATION of EDUCATION in US history*

No Child Left Behind Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## sparky (Sep 6, 2011)

So , in _monetary _terms, the choices are >


*A) *local control , mandates from the state level tethered to whatever taxation they feel like imposing


*B) *fed control, unfunded mandates tethered to property taxation which parameters are _known_




did i _miss _anything?

~S~


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## old navy (Sep 6, 2011)

Gadawg73 said:


> As hard as thou shall try, thou can never polish a TURD.



non fecum sanitizum


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## Unkotare (Sep 6, 2011)

Skull Pilot said:


> jillian said:
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> > as for what permits things like the department of education, i'll refer you to the constitution's general welfare clause. it's bad for the country to have a bunch of undereducated or miseducated people running around.
> ...




Link? Proof that "almost every high school grad is undereducated"? Got a standard measure of "undereducated"? Something specific?


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## Skull Pilot (Sep 6, 2011)

Unkotare said:


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The American Spectator : Uneducated to Serve

SHOCKING: Nearly 1 In 4 High School Graduates Can't Pass Military Entrance Exam

All you have to do is talk to any employer in your town and ask them how pathetic high school kids are at basic skills like writing and arithmetic.


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## Gadawg73 (Sep 6, 2011)

Skull Pilot said:


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Most of the smart kids go to college, not enlist in the military.


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## Gadawg73 (Sep 6, 2011)

Skull Pilot said:


> jillian said:
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> > as for what permits things like the department of education, i'll refer you to the constitution's general welfare clause. it's bad for the country to have a bunch of undereducated or miseducated people running around.
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Not in my county. The exact opposite is true.
But it had to do with PARENTS, not government.


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## PoliticalChic (Sep 6, 2011)

jillian said:


> BDBoop said:
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You would appear sooooo much more intelligent if you actually knew something about the subject about which you post!

The National Education Association (NEA) In 1972, the massive union formed a political action committeereleased Needed: A Cabinet Department of Education in 1975, but its most significant step was to endorse a presidential candidate- Jimmy Carter- for the first time in the history of the organization.  D.T. Stallngs, A Brief History of the Department of Education: 1979-2002, p. 3.	

		                                        When formed, its budget was $13.1 billion (in 2007 dollars) and it employed 450 people. In 2010, the estimated budget is $107 billion, and there are 4,800 employees. http://crunchycon.nationalreview.co...-department-education-not-radical/mona-charen 


Now, here is some actual data that might inform your view:

  In November 1995, when the federal government shut down over a budget crisis,* 89.4 percent of the departments employees were deemed nonessential and sent home. *Beck and Balfe, Broke, p.304


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## Gadawg73 (Sep 6, 2011)

Well, trash collection, national parks, passport offices, courts, National Institute of Health, museums, monuments,  and all non emergency government jobs were deemed "non essential" during the 1995 federal government shut down.
The standard is "protecting lives, property or national security" with government shutdowns.
Although I am a proponent of cutting about 80% of the Dept. of Education, using the government stoppage "non essential" definition in cutting their work force is not applicable.


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## CrusaderFrank (Sep 6, 2011)

So how have American Students fared since the establishment of a Federal Department of (Public Education) in 1980?

Why do we need to spend $70B annually for this unconstitutional anti-learning establishment? We are paying for our own cultural destruction. The DoEd needs to meet a quick end ASAP


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## Gadawg73 (Sep 6, 2011)

ladyliberal said:


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Building the damn schools costs 20 times what the Federal government spends.
And that is also not a function of the Federal government.


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## SFC Ollie (Sep 6, 2011)

jillian said:


> SFC Ollie said:
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> > Can''t think of any where in the constitution that gives the Federal Government any control over education. I believe that should be up to the individual State....
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I trust the State much more than the last 32 years of the Fed sticking their noses into Education. And I trust the village even more than the state......

And yes the Department of Education is only 32 years old. I graduated HS before it came into being. And I can read and spell and count and all kinds of neat things.


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## Unkotare (Sep 6, 2011)

Skull Pilot said:


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You really didn't answer my question the way it was asked, did you?


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## CoolBreeze (Sep 6, 2011)

SFC Ollie said:


> Can''t think of any where in the constitution that gives the Federal Government any control over education. I believe that should be up to the individual State....



Amen Sarge,  the Department of Education is an illegal government enity and as such has no hold over the states as far a the mandate they issue be lawful.  Therefore, since it department is an illegal branch of the government, the state by right have an inheriant duty to the people of the individual states to resist any and all mandates issued by this department.


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## Skull Pilot (Sep 6, 2011)

Gadawg73 said:


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Actually there are a lot of very intelligent people in the military.  In fact I'll hire a 22 year old with military experience over any 22 yr old college puke with a degree in psychology any day.


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## CoolBreeze (Sep 6, 2011)

I am currently teaching my 11 grade grandson the write in cursive, because they do not teach it in his school any longer.  His school system seem to think that with the advent of the computer to it's current status, there is no need to be able to write in cursive any longer.  Well, what about signing one paycheck or  what about having to sign legal documents.


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## Skull Pilot (Sep 6, 2011)

Unkotare said:


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High School Remedial Courses - Are you prepared for college-level work?

40% of high school grads need to take at least one remedial course to prepare for college

Sounds pretty much like an undereducated bunch to me.  Add in those that do not go to college and the percentage is bound to be significantly higher.


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## bripat9643 (Sep 6, 2011)

Woyzeck said:


> So _all_ of the states are filled with liberals?
> 
> This still has nothing to do with the Department of Education.



Liberals run public education. Only a fool or a liar would deny it.


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## Dont Taz Me Bro (Sep 6, 2011)

jillian said:


> BDBoop said:
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> > Bachmann: Why do we need a Department of Education, anyway? « Hot Air
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My God, how ever did we manage to educate anybody for the first 200 years of our nation without the Dept of Education?  You know it didn't exist until the Carter Administration, right?  I also find it no coincidence that public education has also been on the decline since around the time frame.


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## Dont Taz Me Bro (Sep 6, 2011)

Gadawg73 said:


> Most of the smart kids go to college, not enlist in the military.



Most perhaps, but your statement seems to infer that the military is void of intellectuals.  On the contrary, all officers have college educations and the enlisted men obtain a lot of skilled training in the military that can be applied to the private sector when they exit.  They also tend to be more disciplined.  I would consider a job applicant with a military background a bit higher over someone with just a college degree.


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## Woyzeck (Sep 6, 2011)

bripat9643 said:


> Woyzeck said:
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> > So _all_ of the states are filled with liberals?
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So every single local school district and school committee is run by a cabal of liberals?


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## Big Fitz (Sep 6, 2011)

Skull Pilot said:


> jillian said:
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> > as for what permits things like the department of education, i'll refer you to the constitution's general welfare clause. it's bad for the country to have a bunch of undereducated or miseducated people running around.
> ...


Yep.  Undereducated but have good self esteem about it.

Hence the problem in liberal run education.  "I suck but I feel good about it."


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## Unkotare (Sep 6, 2011)

CoolBreeze said:


> I am currently teaching my 11 grade grandson the write in cursive, because they do not teach it in his school any longer.





Don't bother. It's a waste of time.


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## Unkotare (Sep 6, 2011)

Skull Pilot said:


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Even giving you the benefit of the doubt, does 40% = "almost all"? Maybe you are among the "undereducated"?


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## Skull Pilot (Sep 6, 2011)

Unkotare said:


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once again the meaning beyond the literal words on the page is missed by  public school sycophant.

There are many grads who do not go to college therefore one can reasonably extrapolate that many more than the 40% are in need of remedial education.

BTW have you ever actually interviewed a recent high school grad or read a so called resume written by one?

Have you ever had to teach a supposedly educated grad how to count change back to a customer or show them 20 times how to do a simple batch out procedure on a credit card machine?

Anyone who believes a public school grad is educated to the standards of 40 years ago has their head in the sand.


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## Unkotare (Sep 6, 2011)

Skull Pilot said:


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= you know you were wrong but lack the balls to admit it. Be more careful before you exaggerate next time.


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## Unkotare (Sep 6, 2011)

Skull Pilot said:


> BTW have you ever actually interviewed a recent high school grad or read a so called resume written by one?.





Thousands and thousands, as well as those of people 5, 10, 20 years out. Swing and a miss, champ.


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## Skull Pilot (Sep 6, 2011)

Unkotare said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > BTW have you ever actually interviewed a recent high school grad or read a so called resume written by one?.
> ...



Who's exaggerating now?

Or are you one of those public school teachers who grades on a curve so as to make it look like everyone gets an A?


----------



## Unkotare (Sep 6, 2011)

Skull Pilot said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...





Still you. Thanks for asking.


----------



## Unkotare (Sep 6, 2011)

Skull Pilot said:


> [
> 
> Or are you one of those public school teachers who grades on a curve so as to make it look like everyone gets an A?




Nope. You fail again, champ.


----------



## Skull Pilot (Sep 6, 2011)

Unkotare said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > [
> ...



I am not being graded here chump.


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Sep 6, 2011)

Gadawg73 said:


> We could do with probably about 10-20% of what is now the Dept. of Education.
> Anything and everything uniform policy for all states goes immediately.
> Education is not a function of the Federal government.



Read my sig.

Government education is a conflict of interest by it's very nature.


----------



## Unkotare (Sep 6, 2011)

Skull Pilot said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...





Good thing, 'cause you are not doing well at all.


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Sep 6, 2011)

rightwinger said:


> Percentage wise, the federal government has minimal control over education. Most is still at the local level.



But you're working overtime to change that.


----------



## Skull Pilot (Sep 6, 2011)

If the majority of public HS grads are not prepared for college then are not most of them undereducated?

Majority of College-Bound Students Not Qualified - ABC News



> Only one in four college-bound high school graduates is adequately prepared for college-level English, reading, math and science,



Or is that question too complicated for you?


----------



## Unkotare (Sep 6, 2011)

Skull Pilot said:


> If the majority of public HS grads are not prepared for college then are not most of them undereducated??





LOL! Still trying to dig your way out of that hole, champ?


Have you now changed the definition of 'educated' to 'prepared for college'? And where did "almost all" go? You seem to be lowering the bar in a desperate attempt to salvage your ill-considered declaration. 

No, it's not going well for you at all.


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Sep 6, 2011)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> Can you think of anything in the Constitution that prohibits the creation of the Department of Education?



You've never actually seen the constitution, have you?

Article [X.]

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. 




> Has the constitutionality of the Department ever been challenged in Federal court? And if so what was the outcome?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Skull Pilot (Sep 6, 2011)

Unkotare said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > If the majority of public HS grads are not prepared for college then are not most of them undereducated??
> ...


It's going way better for me than for a recent graduate of our so called education system.

75% or more is almost all or did you not pass basic math.


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Sep 6, 2011)

Gadawg73 said:


> Most of the smart kids go to college, not enlist in the military.



Most of the kids in college, aren't smart; not by any stretch of the imagination.


----------



## Unkotare (Sep 6, 2011)

Skull Pilot said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...




It doesn't appear that way.


----------



## Unkotare (Sep 6, 2011)

Uncensored2008 said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> > Most of the smart kids go to college, not enlist in the military.
> ...




I'm not sure you could say most of the professors teaching in college are smart.


----------



## Quantum Windbag (Sep 6, 2011)

jillian said:


> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> > Can''t think of any where in the constitution that gives the Federal Government any control over education. I believe that should be up to the individual State....
> ...



Believe it or not, the DOE does not care if you teach creationism. The courts, however take a dim view of it, which is why it was ruled unconstitutional before the DOE even existed.

Can you tell me how the general welfare clause, which is about taxes, can be used to justify the DOE? I would love to see you do that without resorting to a logical fallacy.


----------



## Quantum Windbag (Sep 6, 2011)

SFC Ollie said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > SFC Ollie said:
> ...



You trying to make me feel old?


----------



## Quantum Windbag (Sep 6, 2011)

Unkotare said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



Did you get the part of college students? What percentage of high school graduates go to college? The last time I looked at the stats only about 10% of high school students take the SAT. If 40% of that 10% need remedial courses, what percentage of the rest do you think need those courses?


----------



## Unkotare (Sep 6, 2011)

Quantum Windbag said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...




You tell me. Gimme a link or something.


----------



## Quantum Windbag (Sep 6, 2011)

Unkotare said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



To what, exactly? The ability to reason? You cannot get that on the internet.


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## Unkotare (Sep 6, 2011)

You can either prove the claim or you can't. You mentioned the ability to reason? Here's your chance.


----------



## Gadawg73 (Sep 6, 2011)

Uncensored2008 said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> > Most of the smart kids go to college, not enlist in the military.
> ...



Sad that you have a negative opinion of our youth.
As someone that has worked with youth for 40 years I disagree 100% with your opinion. 
Most of the young adults in college are very smart.


----------



## flacaltenn (Sep 6, 2011)

BDBoop said:


> Bachmann: Why do we need a Department of Education, anyway? « Hot Air
> 
> Or so it seems.
> 
> ...



Well -- If you don't want the Feds to define "minimum education standards" and you don't them to mandate TESTING to determine the demographics and extent of the problems -- then they have NO ROLE TO PLAY -- do they lefties? 

Under those lefty rules --- SHUT THEM DOWN..

THey serve no use other than to interfere with the better judgement of the people fighting in the pits to save failing public schools and forcing $1.50 in compliance costs for every $2.00 they send out..


----------



## SFC Ollie (Sep 6, 2011)

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> > Most of the smart kids go to college, not enlist in the military.
> ...



Not only that, but if you want to get promoted in the military you must show that you are continuing your civilian education. Most people have a college degree before reaching the rank of E6.


----------



## NGSamson (Sep 6, 2011)

jillian said:


> BDBoop said:
> 
> 
> > Bachmann: Why do we need a Department of Education, anyway? « Hot Air
> ...



That was a chicken shit statement . You do know that they teach evolution in catholic, baptist, or "name your religion" schools right ? And 9 times out of 10 the private school kids have it down better then public school kids right ? The Department Of Education is a failure. They have no reason to exist.


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## flacaltenn (Sep 6, 2011)

NGSamson said:


> jillian said:
> 
> 
> > BDBoop said:
> ...





Not only should Jillian be nailed on that factoid NGSampson -- but isn't it the lefty teacher unions SCREAMING about having to teach to STANDARDS in order for their kids to pass National Testing? 

THat's pretty inconsistent -- even by lefty standards.


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## Skull Pilot (Sep 7, 2011)

Unkotare said:


> You can either prove the claim or you can't. You mentioned the ability to reason? Here's your chance.



One in four is 25%

three in four is 75%

If 75% of grads are not educated to a sufficient level for freshman college courses, which are really no harder than high school courses, then 75% of grads are undereducated meaning they do not have a grasp of basic skills.

If you lost 75% of everything you had would you not say you lost almost everything?


----------



## editec (Sep 7, 2011)

BDBoop said:


> Bachmann: Why do we need a Department of Education, anyway? « Hot Air
> 
> Or so it seems.
> 
> ...


 
Remind me again...what PARTY pushed the FEDERALIZATION of US education with *the most FEDERALIZED EDUCATIONAL program in US history?*

Oh yeah, I remember the REpublicans did...and that program is called NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND.

Well, I'm happy to see that the GOP is finally aware of what a disaster THAT plan was.

Welcome to the fold,  along with most of this nation's educators who understand how stupid that FEDERALIZED TESTING system really is.


----------



## jillian (Sep 7, 2011)

flacaltenn said:


> NGSamson said:
> 
> 
> > jillian said:
> ...



so he's lying and saying that rightwingnuts don't want to teach creationism as science and making up lies about catholic schools doing better at teaching science than public schools and you high five him.

now THAT is funny. are you the same person?

*shrug*


----------



## Unkotare (Sep 7, 2011)

Skull Pilot said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > You can either prove the claim or you can't. You mentioned the ability to reason? Here's your chance.
> ...




So, 'not prepared for college' is "undereducated" for a high school grad now? Is that the standard? When was that established as the standard which all high school education must achieve? Got a link for that?


----------



## Skull Pilot (Sep 7, 2011)

Unkotare said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



I defined the standards for undereducated in my first post as being unable to write well, unable to perform simple arithmetic sans calculator and a lack of knowledge of history and geography.

If those preparing for college do not possess these skills, it is reasonable to assume that those not preparing for college also lack these skills.

And my own experience in dealing with so called educated high school grads has proven to me that they indeed unable to perform the basic skills listed above.

So I stand by my description of almost all HS grads being undereducated.


----------



## Gadawg73 (Sep 7, 2011)

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> > Most of the smart kids go to college, not enlist in the military.
> ...



"seems to infer"
You are the one that is inferring, not me. I never stated that only dumb and stupid kids enlist in the military. 
My father was a Marine officer after having graduated in 1942 from college. He earned his Masters and PHD at Cornell in 1948 in the Marine reserves. He retired in 1954 right before I was born in Jacksonville, NC. at Camp Lejeune. 
I am sorry I did not make myself clear. I should have stated "smarter". 
Most of the smarter kids go to college first and if they are interested in the military they join afterwards. The recruiters encourage the smarter kids to finish their college first. And the military is most interested in recruiting those graduates as both my sons were heavily recruited in college with my full support. I told them both it was a great oppurtunity. My youngest is still considering it. 
I agree with all of your post. You will not find a more passioned supporter of the military and those that serve than me. In fact, I believe the skills one learns in the military, many in the vocational area, are more in demand than a college degree!
Fact is, and no disrespect to the anyone in the military, most of those that enlist in the military do not go to college because their grades were not as good in high school as the other kids that plan for college.


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## Uncensored2008 (Sep 7, 2011)

Unkotare said:


> I'm not sure you could say most of the professors teaching in college are smart.



Touche' on the zinger.

Even so, college is not the higher learning it once was. Many incoming freshmen cannot construct a coherent sentence and don't comprehend the rules of grammar.


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Sep 7, 2011)

Gadawg73 said:


> Sad that you have a negative opinion of our youth.
> As someone that has worked with youth for 40 years I disagree 100% with your opinion.
> Most of the young adults in college are very smart.



Try grading a few thousand papers using a standardized rubric, then get back to me on this.


----------



## NGSamson (Sep 7, 2011)

jillian said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > NGSamson said:
> ...



Proof ? And my kids dont go to Catholic school. And kids in privat school, as well as home school dont just do better in science they do better in every subject.


----------



## NGSamson (Sep 7, 2011)

Overview:
bullet	

Protestant religious schools: There is little conflict over evolution within most Christian home schooling programs and Christian religious schools. Creation science and Intelligent Design are taught there as the only valid belief systems concerning the history of the world, its life forms and the rest of the universe. Naturalistic and theistic Evolution is generally rejected. However, there seems to be an increasing trend among some Christian high schools and colleges to abandon creation science in favor of theistic evolution -- the concept that evolution of the species happened on earth over billions of years, and that God used evolution as a tool to create the species that we see today. 

Teaching of evolution in U.S. schools

Now that your lie is taken care of, What do we need Dept. of education for ?


----------



## signelect (Sep 7, 2011)

It is evident we need the department of education to keep structure!!


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## Big Fitz (Sep 7, 2011)

signelect said:


> It is evident we need the department of education to keep structure!!


wait... keep structure?  As in the structure that's been failing for 40 years nearly?

I think its time to raze it and try again utilizing new technologies and more efficient forms of education.

And step one is to eliminate federal money for ALL levels of education.  It's a states rights issue.  Let the states decide if they want public school or to privatize the lot.


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## Uncensored2008 (Sep 7, 2011)

signelect said:


> It is evident we need the department of education to keep structure!!



Yeah, otherwise we'll have students excelling in math, science and language all over the nation. THEN how will Obama ever get reelected?


We need to keep people stupid, so that democrats win elections!


----------



## Unkotare (Sep 7, 2011)

Skull Pilot said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...




You can stand by it all you want but you haven't come anywhere close to supporting it.

What exactly is "simple" arithmetic, and where is the link showing "almost all" high school grads cannot do it?

What exactly is "a lack of" knowledge in history and geography, and where is the link showing "almost all" high school grads do not have this ridiculously vague level of knowledge?

What exactly is writing "well," and where is the link showing that "almost all" high school grads have not achieved this equally vague distinction?

You haven't defined your terms and you cannot support your claims, so your conclusions are utterly baseless.


----------



## Unkotare (Sep 7, 2011)

Uncensored2008 said:


> signelect said:
> 
> 
> > It is evident we need the department of education to keep structure!!
> ...





People are generally stupid on their own. democrats need them to be dependent and scared to win elections.


----------



## NGSamson (Sep 7, 2011)

Big Fitz said:


> signelect said:
> 
> 
> > It is evident we need the department of education to keep structure!!
> ...



It should also be remembered that we need cops, nurses, fire fighters, emt's. Not to mention the military, (which has been stigmatized again) as a path reserved for the poor.


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## Uncensored2008 (Sep 7, 2011)

Unkotare said:


> People are generally stupid on their own. democrats need them to be dependent and scared to win elections.



Stupid people tend to be more dependent than intelligent people. Education breeds more than just knowledge, it breeds confidence. A knowledgeable and confident man doesn't need Obama to wipe his ass for him.

Public education only appears to be a disaster, in reality it is working precisely as designed. Creativity, problem solving and independent thought are not the goals of public education, quite the opposite.


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## Uncensored2008 (Sep 7, 2011)

NGSamson said:


> It should also be remembered that we need cops, nurses, fire fighters, emt's. Not to mention the military, (which has been stigmatized again) as a path reserved for the poor.



And prison inmates! We need LOTS of prison inmates - which public education is perfectly crafted to train.


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## NGSamson (Sep 7, 2011)

Uncensored2008 said:


> NGSamson said:
> 
> 
> > It should also be remembered that we need cops, nurses, fire fighters, emt's. Not to mention the military, (which has been stigmatized again) as a path reserved for the poor.
> ...



Sadly, thats true. At that point they are lost 99% of the time.


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## OohPooPahDoo (Sep 7, 2011)

BDBoop said:


> Bachmann: Why do we need a Department of Education, anyway? « Hot Air
> 
> Or so it seems.
> 
> ...



We don't need no Pell Grants

Da da da 
Da Da 
Da da da

We don't need no student loans.

Da da da 
Da Da 
Da da da


----------



## flacaltenn (Sep 7, 2011)

editec said:


> BDBoop said:
> 
> 
> > Bachmann: Why do we need a Department of Education, anyway? « Hot Air
> ...



I don't believe Fed testing was stupid.. The states were cooking their books on THEIR standardized testing LONG before the FEDS stepped in .. Once we shut the doors on the Dept of Ed -- they'll be cooking their books AGAIN. Nothing's been solved. TESTING IS IMPORTANT -- otherwise you're just guessing at the problems..


----------



## Skull Pilot (Sep 7, 2011)

Unkotare said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



Yawn.

You can ignore it if you want but

CUNY's got math problem: Report shows many freshmen from city HS fail at basic algebra - New York Daily News



> During their first math class at one of CUNY's four-year colleges, 90% of 200 students tested couldn't solve a simple algebra problem, the report by the CUNY Council of Math Chairs found. Only a third could convert a fraction into a decimal.



Simple math is beyond HS grads.  Like I said try to hire one of these dolts and you'll see what I mean.

http://www.usatoday.com/educate/casestudies/writingskills.pdf


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## Unkotare (Sep 7, 2011)

You're making general declarations you cannot support and drawing illogical conclusions therefrom. If you didn't feel the need to exaggerate you wouldn't be in this rhetorical mess.


----------



## Big Fitz (Sep 7, 2011)

OohPooPahDoo said:


> BDBoop said:
> 
> 
> > Bachmann: Why do we need a Department of Education, anyway? « Hot Air
> ...


No dark sarcasms in the class room
Hey!  Teacher!  Leave those kids alone!


----------



## flacaltenn (Sep 7, 2011)

Unkotare said:


> You're making general declarations you cannot support and drawing illogical conclusions therefrom. If you didn't feel the need to exaggerate you wouldn't be in this rhetorical mess.



There's no problem with supporting the statement that testing has shown up to 70% of students in some districts below "proficiency".. 

All you have to do is go to NAEP - Nation's Report Card Home and start perusing the data. I can't do that for you.. It's all there. And it's EXTREMELY dismal.. The NAEP test that it is based on is BASIC MINIMUM stuff. I've taken the 8th grade math test on the site. 

We're not hiding anything -- it's all available. More than 1/2 of Public schools have problems preparing kids for MINIMUM expectations. That's a fact...


----------



## Unkotare (Sep 7, 2011)

Now it's "some districts" eh? So, not "almost all," but 'almost all in some districts'? Still problematic.


----------



## Quantum Windbag (Sep 7, 2011)

Unkotare said:


> You can either prove the claim or you can't. You mentioned the ability to reason? Here's your chance.



The claim has been proven. If you can't follow the logic I cannot help you.


----------



## Unkotare (Sep 7, 2011)

It most certainly has not.


----------



## CrusaderFrank (Sep 7, 2011)

Dear God, Oh God, Please, please, please don't tell me that Rdean is a "teacher" or has anything to do with education!


----------



## Unkotare (Sep 7, 2011)

CrusaderFrank said:


> Dear God, Oh God, Please, please, please don't tell me that Rdean is a "teacher" or has anything to do with education!





If the former, certainly not the latter.


----------



## flacaltenn (Sep 7, 2011)

Unkotare said:


> Now it's "some districts" eh? So, not "almost all," but 'almost all in some districts'? Still problematic.



Actually at LEAST the MAJORITY of districts have serious problems getting their students past competency levels on testing. Go to www.nationsreportcard.com and see the dismal news for yourself.

Actually -- here -- I'll help..   For 8th grade math the achievement levels are Basic = 262, Proficient = 299, Advanced = 333... 

Go to http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcar...syear.aspx?usrSelections=1,MAT,5,1,across,0,0

And browse by state. These are only AVERAGES for ALL students in the state, or the 75th /25th percentiles. Even with these statewide averages (and not individual schools and districts) you can see gi-normous size of the problem.


----------



## Skull Pilot (Sep 7, 2011)

Unkotare said:


> You're making general declarations you cannot support and drawing illogical conclusions therefrom. If you didn't feel the need to exaggerate you wouldn't be in this rhetorical mess.



Those findings bear out my personal experience with HS grads.

tell you what you find me a study that says most HS grads are proficient in math, reading, writing and history as compared to 40 years ago and I'll concede.

I'm not worried abut you finding said study though.

Even teachers know that education is failing

Test Scores at Odds With Rising High School Grades



> If a teacher were to really grade students on their true level of mastery, there would be such extraordinary levels of failure that it would not be tolerated, so most teachers don't do that


----------



## Uncensored2008 (Sep 7, 2011)

CrusaderFrank said:


> Dear God, Oh God, Please, please, please don't tell me that Rdean is a "teacher" or has anything to do with education!



RDean is an incompetent moron.

Teaching in the public schools would be very likely. No skills, no brains and no talent, sounds like a public school teacher to me....


----------



## Moonglow (Sep 7, 2011)

Skull Pilot said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > You're making general declarations you cannot support and drawing illogical conclusions therefrom. If you didn't feel the need to exaggerate you wouldn't be in this rhetorical mess.
> ...



I was bad at academic skills 40 years ago, I passed school beeng a top jock.


----------



## Skull Pilot (Sep 7, 2011)

Moonglow said:


> Skull Pilot said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



Even if your grades were lower than a current high school grad I bet your understanding of the material was far beyond any recent grad.

Grades are inflated by using curves, kids who should fail are getting Bs and kids who would have received Cs get As.

The Skewing of the Bell Curve: A Study of Grade Inflation in Oklahoma High Schools

And we wonder why US schools suck.


----------



## Unkotare (Sep 7, 2011)

flacaltenn said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Now it's "some districts" eh? So, not "almost all," but 'almost all in some districts'? Still problematic.
> ...





You're missing the point. None of this proves the original claim. No one ever said there isn't a problem, but "almost all" is both insupportable and an exaggeration. Whatshisass there engaged in hyperbole and has now spent a good amount of time trying to dig his way out of a hole.


----------



## Unkotare (Sep 7, 2011)

Skull Pilot said:


> tell you what you find me a study that says most HS grads are proficient in math, reading, writing and history as compared to 40 years ago and I'll concede.





That's not how it works, Captain Logic. I think you know that. You made a claim you cannot support. Just don't exaggerate next time and you'll be fine.


----------



## Trajan (Sep 7, 2011)

rightwinger said:


> SFC Ollie said:
> 
> 
> > Can''t think of any where in the constitution that gives the Federal Government any control over education. I believe that should be up to the individual State....
> ...



the dept of education has huge pull, they have a lever the states can pull hooked up to a cash machine. play along, you get cash.


----------



## flacaltenn (Sep 7, 2011)

Unkotare said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



UnkoTare:

THe public school problem is SO ABYSMALLY bad, that parents who give a shit about their kids are panicked. Today and everyday. While we argue about whether it's MOST or all of the districts that have a problem. 

Trying not to be combative here -- I challenge you to watch "Waiting for Superman". You can probably order it up on Cable demand or NetFlix. After you've watched that -- tell me you still think the plight of those folks is debatable.. Or just tell me whether we should just continue the same ole strategy of pumping resources into a broken system..

PS -- not indicting teachers here. No way.. Unions YES.. But we need a multi-disciplinary triage approach to take the load OFF of the capable teachers and get families and communities involved in the solution.. That's NOT likely the Washington approach..


----------



## Unkotare (Sep 7, 2011)

LOL. You're "challenging" me to watch a movie? Do you have any idea how stupid that sounds?


And - again - I never said there wasn't a problem, so you are eagerly trying to 'convince' me of something not in dispute.


----------



## Moonglow (Sep 7, 2011)

Skull Pilot said:


> Moonglow said:
> 
> 
> > Skull Pilot said:
> ...



No, I had to take all the basics in college. The school my youngest goes to uses the paddle and  plain grading to asses knowledge.
The way you talk about school kids is the same way the old timers talked about us when we were that age.


----------



## SFC Ollie (Sep 7, 2011)

I remember some of the things that happened when I went to public schools.

We started each day with the pledge of allegiance.

The teacher had a paddle and was permitted to use it.

There were prayers allowed and offered.

There were no metal detectors at the entrances.

There were no police officers patrolling the halls.

We learned things.

And for the most part we were color blind.

My 40 year HS Reunion.


----------



## Moonglow (Sep 7, 2011)

flacaltenn said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...



Washington does not control all aspects of public schools. The state and local communities have the most say so, except for the intrusive, "No Child Left Behind" program of rating schools by scores.

My kids have a much better education than I got in the sixties and seventies.


----------



## Big Fitz (Sep 7, 2011)

Crusaderfrank said:
			
		

> Dear God, Oh God, Please, please, please don't tell me that Rdean is a  "teacher" or has anything to do with education!


University Food Service.  It's the only explanation.


----------



## Big Fitz (Sep 7, 2011)

Trajan said:


> rightwinger said:
> 
> 
> > SFC Ollie said:
> ...


I do believe the FBI calls that Racketeering and Extortion.


----------



## Gadawg73 (Sep 7, 2011)

Uncensored2008 said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not sure you could say most of the professors teaching in college are smart.
> ...



One of your previous posts you claimed it was "most".
Now you claim it is "many".
Community colleges take anyone and you are correct.
Most all universities require the written part of SAT now.
You have to construct a coherent sentence and comprehend the rules of grammar to make a half decent score on that. 
All 3 of my kids went to public schools, 2  have graduated from universities now working and my youngest is a sophomore in college now. We do not see what you speak of in any way with the kids we know that attend college.
Where do you get your information?


----------



## Quantum Windbag (Sep 7, 2011)

Gadawg73 said:


> Uncensored2008 said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



Do you understand the difference between "many incoming freshmen" and "most high school graduates?" Do you understand that, even though they overlap, they are not identical?


----------



## Old Rocks (Sep 7, 2011)

Gadawg73 said:


> We could do with probably about 10-20% of what is now the Dept. of Education.
> Anything and everything uniform policy for all states goes immediately.
> Education is not a function of the Federal government.



And we could go back to the '50s equal but seperate schools in the southern states, correct?


----------



## Quantum Windbag (Sep 7, 2011)

Old Rocks said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> > We could do with probably about 10-20% of what is now the Dept. of Education.
> ...



What, exactly, do you think that the DOE has to do with segregation?


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## Big Fitz (Sep 8, 2011)

Quantum Windbag said:


> Old Rocks said:
> 
> 
> > Gadawg73 said:
> ...


Nothing, but he doesn't get that.


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## Uncensored2008 (Sep 8, 2011)

Old Rocks said:


> And we could go back to the '50s equal but seperate schools in the southern states, correct?



This is why you shouldn't post while you're drunk...


When you sober up and find out what a fool you made of yourself, you're going to be REALLY embarrassed....


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## bripat9643 (Sep 8, 2011)

Old Rocks said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> > We could do with probably about 10-20% of what is now the Dept. of Education.
> ...




Yeah, and we could also uninvent the polio vaccine and television.


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## psikeyhackr (Sep 9, 2011)

Old Rocks said:


> Gadawg73 said:
> 
> 
> > We could do with probably about 10-20% of what is now the Dept. of Education.
> ...



Yeah, Black people should have wanted schools as bad as those for the Whites.

This was published in 1938.  I didn't run across it until 2010.  I wish I had read in in high school.  But I found Science and Sanity in my early 20s which this discusses.  A.E Van Vogt used Korzybski's ideas in his books I read as a kid.

A. E. Van Vogt and General Semantics

The Tyranny of Words (1938) by Stuart Chase
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9H1StY1nU8]"The Tyranny of Words" - YouTube[/ame]

The educational system is crap and designed to keep most people ignorant.  How many educators were ever taught that they should know double-entry accounting?  Why shouldn't they?  Don't they have to manage money and buy houses and pay mortgages?  The system depends on almost everybody being properly ignorant, including the teachers.

NO!  Read Shakespeare and War and Peace.  Useless crap!

psik


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## Political Junky (Sep 10, 2011)

rdean said:


> BDBoop said:
> 
> 
> > Bachmann: Why do we need a Department of Education, anyway? « Hot Air
> ...


Yes.


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Sep 10, 2011)

> The educational system is crap and designed to keep most people ignorant.



If true, then getting rid of the Department of Education will have no effect. 



> NO! Read Shakespeare and War and Peace. Useless crap!



To you, perhaps. But to those who understand the intrinsic value of education, not.


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## SFC Ollie (Sep 10, 2011)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> > The educational system is crap and designed to keep most people ignorant.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Please tell us about the measurable improvements in education these past 32 years that are a direct result of the DOE.....


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## flacaltenn (Sep 10, 2011)

Moonglow said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



MoonGlow -- Is that REALLY YOU? Gee you sound almost rational... 

Since NOBODY seems really happy with the help that they're getting from Wash. -- That could explain why a lot of folks don't see a real need for an entire DEPT LEVEL bureaucracy. 

Ironically, me being a fervent "small gov dude", I may be the ONLY poster who saw a need for national testing assessment. Not neccessarilly from the Dept of Ed, could've been from a private firm like SATs or Princeton or Stanford, because the states were cooking their test results so badly (BEFORE NCLB) NO ONE could see where the biggest problems were or what the causes could be. 

So if the DOEd shouldn't be doing those kinds of assessments -- *shut 'em down.* Because they don't have the data they need to be a help in the first place.. 

BTW: I can conclusively say that I got better education in the 70/80s in Florida than my kids got from the stunted, politified, group project, new math, whole language, phoney grading California public schools that they attended. And we did the BEST WE COULD to get them into some of the best PUBLIC choices available..


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## Unkotare (Sep 10, 2011)

psikeyhackr said:


> NO!  Read Shakespeare and War and Peace.  Useless crap!
> 
> psik





Are you seriously suggesting that studying Shakespeare and Tolstoy is useless crap? Wtf?


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## Quantum Windbag (Sep 10, 2011)

Unkotare said:


> psikeyhackr said:
> 
> 
> > NO!  Read Shakespeare and War and Peace.  Useless crap!
> ...



Are you seriously suggesting it isn't?


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## Unkotare (Sep 10, 2011)

Quantum Windbag said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > psikeyhackr said:
> ...




Of course. Now instead of answering a question with a question just say 'yes' or 'no.' Do you think that studying Shakespeare and Tolstoy is useless?


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## Quantum Windbag (Sep 10, 2011)

Unkotare said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



If you want to study English or Russian literature, they are not.

If you are in grade school learning about what you need to get through life, it is.


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## Unkotare (Sep 10, 2011)

You are a farm animal, and you will be treated like one by the human beings who run the world you just happen to find yourself in. Good luck.


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## Quantum Windbag (Sep 10, 2011)

Unkotare said:


> You are a farm animal, and you will be treated like one by the human beings who run the world you just happen to find yourself in. Good luck.



That does not even make sense.


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## Unkotare (Sep 10, 2011)

Quantum Windbag said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > You are a farm animal, and you will be treated like one by the human beings who run the world you just happen to find yourself in. Good luck.
> ...




You might figure it out if you had an education.


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## SFC Ollie (Sep 10, 2011)

Still no answer to post 149. About what I expected.


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## Woyzeck (Sep 10, 2011)

Quantum Windbag said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...



High school English class is actually extraordinarily useful practice for critical thinking skills, as well as developing an argument with supporting evidence and writing.


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## bripat9643 (Sep 10, 2011)

Political Junky said:


> rdean said:
> 
> 
> > She also want's to get rid of the EPA.
> ...



I've noticed that everyone who defends government schools is stupid and dishonest.


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## bripat9643 (Sep 10, 2011)

Woyzeck said:


> High school English class is actually extraordinarily useful practice for critical thinking skills, as well as developing an argument with supporting evidence and writing.



That's the theory.  The reality is that high school English class is a warehouse for ignorant dolts where they learn almost nothing.


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## Woyzeck (Sep 10, 2011)

bripat9643 said:


> Woyzeck said:
> 
> 
> > High school English class is actually extraordinarily useful practice for critical thinking skills, as well as developing an argument with supporting evidence and writing.
> ...



You could say that in any class where there's a uncaring student or where there's a teacher is sub par.


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## Woyzeck (Sep 10, 2011)

bripat9643 said:


> Political Junky said:
> 
> 
> > rdean said:
> ...



I didn't know you liked public schools, I thought you were against them from the way you talk.


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## C_Clayton_Jones (Sep 10, 2011)

> High school English class is actually extraordinarily useful practice for critical thinking skills, as well as developing an argument with supporting evidence and writing.


Hence conservative opposition to High School English class.


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## IanC (Sep 10, 2011)

I think reading George Orwell's chronological disavowment of socialism, especially in his nonfiction, is a great gift to humans who are making an effort to mature rather than just get older.


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## Quantum Windbag (Sep 10, 2011)

Unkotare said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



You think you are insulting someone, got it.


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## Quantum Windbag (Sep 10, 2011)

Woyzeck said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



Did you see the part where I said grade school? You must not have paid attention in those classes.


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## Quantum Windbag (Sep 10, 2011)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> > High school English class is actually extraordinarily useful practice for critical thinking skills, as well as developing an argument with supporting evidence and writing.
> 
> 
> Hence conservative opposition to High School English class.



Coming from a person that obviously has no critical thinking skills whatever it is surprising you can even use the word hence.


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## Woyzeck (Sep 10, 2011)

Quantum Windbag said:


> Woyzeck said:
> 
> 
> > Quantum Windbag said:
> ...



Funny, I don't think grade schoolers are ever taught Tolstoy or Shakespeare, unless Shakespeare penned _Fun with Dick and Jane_ during his off-hours from writing tragedies.


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## Quantum Windbag (Sep 10, 2011)

Woyzeck said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > Woyzeck said:
> ...



I read Shakespeare in 6th grade. Tolstoy is boring, even in Russian. (That last I learned from someone who learned Russian, I do not know it myself.)


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## flacaltenn (Sep 11, 2011)

Unkotare said:


> You are a farm animal, and you will be treated like one by the human beings who run the world you just happen to find yourself in. Good luck.



Hey Windbag.. It's plagiarized.. I saw that one in a fortune cookie just recently..


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## Unkotare (Sep 11, 2011)

flacaltenn said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > You are a farm animal, and you will be treated like one by the human beings who run the world you just happen to find yourself in. Good luck.
> ...





Wrong again, ignorant.


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## flacaltenn (Sep 11, 2011)

Unkotare said:


> flacaltenn said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



Yeah -- I could be wrong. SOUNDED like a fortune cookie. But maybe it was from Animal Farm...


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## Bern80 (Sep 11, 2011)

rdean said:


> BDBoop said:
> 
> 
> > Bachmann: Why do we need a Department of Education, anyway? « Hot Air
> ...



Yeah, because wanting to get rid of inept, inefficient, wasteful, federal beauracracy is exactly the same thing as saying we should not educate children.......


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## SFC Ollie (Sep 11, 2011)

Has anyone figured out what improvements to education the DOE has made in their 32 years yet?


Didn't think so..........


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## Unkotare (Sep 11, 2011)

flacaltenn said:


> Unkotare said:
> 
> 
> > flacaltenn said:
> ...




Maybe not.


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## logical4u (Sep 11, 2011)

jillian said:


> BDBoop said:
> 
> 
> > Bachmann: Why do we need a Department of Education, anyway? « Hot Air
> ...



Have our schools/test scores/graduation rates improved since the feds jumped in to administer "standards"?


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## Uncensored2008 (Sep 12, 2011)

C_Clayton_Jones said:


> If true, then getting rid of the Department of Education will have no effect.



Non-sequitur.




> To you, perhaps. But to those who understand the intrinsic value of education, not.



More education and less indoctrination would help.

State education is a conflict of interest. The goal of the state is to perpetuate itself. An independent and critically thinking populace is contrary to the goals of the state.

Simply stated; in order that liberty should survive, there must be a strict and impenetrable wall of separation between education and state.


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## Listening (Sep 16, 2011)

Unkotare said:


> Quantum Windbag said:
> 
> 
> > Unkotare said:
> ...



And hence you might have just made his point for him.

I'd guess he has recieved an "education" as you like to call it under the current system.

According to you it didn't do him much good.

Got it.


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## Unkotare (Sep 16, 2011)

A school can't fix 'stupid.'


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## Unkotare (Sep 16, 2011)

A school can't fix 'stupid.'


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## Uncensored2008 (Sep 16, 2011)

Unkotare said:


> A school can't fix 'stupid.'



Nor do the socialized schools seek to.


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## Listening (Sep 16, 2011)

Unkotare said:


> A school can't fix 'stupid.'



I agree.

So let's get the stupid kids out of school and quit wasting their time and our money.

Schools can't fix a lot of things.

But we still seem bent on making them try.


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