# OPINION: Why mRNA Vaccines are failing.



## Billy_Bob (Oct 10, 2021)

From the top, I am not "anti-vax". So please do not go there. I am posting this as a person with extensive knowledge in the medical field and simply posting empirical observations.

Modified RNA vaccines (mRNA) are designed to look for common parts of a virus. This makes creating a quick vaccine very easy but it also has negative problems that we are now having to deal with.

Modified RNA vaccines look for "parts" of the virus, not the virus itself. While they will lessen the severity if you do become infected, once the antibodies are gone its the same as never having seen the virus, as you body did not have to heal and create B and T cells in your bone marrow. The antibodies were triggered by a part of a virus and not the virus, in this case, the "spike proteins".  You gain no long term protections.

This is also why you can become infectious to others. The virus grows unabated until there are sufficient "spike proteins" to trigger a response from your immune system. This is why people get ill, become infective, but have very mild cases. It is the lack of healing and the trigger by spike proteins which stops the body from creating long term immunities in B and T cells. Once your antibodies are gone from this mRNA vaccine your body has never seen or reacted to the actual virus, you are now a walking time bomb again to have a very sever case.

In summary;

* The "trigger" for your immune system is the spike proteins and not the virus.  The human bodies immune system never trains itself to look for the virus. No long term immunity is formed.

* Once the active antibodies are gone from a mRNA virus you are again at risk to become ill. Without the formation of long term immunities in your bone marrow which look for the virus you do not gain these.

* Because the mRNA vaccine trains the body to look for the 'spike proteins', the virus will run rampant until it creates sufficient mass to trigger the antibody response from the spike proteins. This time period allows the viral load to amass and the person to become infective to others. The body never responds to the virus as a threat. The antibodies will attack anything that has the spike proteins present so it kills the infection.

* mRNA antibodies rapidly decrease at 3-4 months. By 5-9 months they are insufficient to foster further protections.  

* mRNA vaccines cause swelling of cardiac tissues in persons under the age of 25 and blood clots in women.

The studies coming out about the efficacy of the mRNA vaccines is stunning. Problems, like viral transmission, were not foreseen by the creator of the method. While this method does make early vaccine intervention possible, it is not a long term solution to endemic viruses such as COVID-19.  Using identifiable parts of a virus can give some protection to mutation outbreaks, if the right part is used, but it can also have unforeseen bad outcomes.

In My Opinion, the fact that mRNA vaccine are incapable of creating long term memory and immunities makes them a stop gap measure until a more suitable vaccine can be created which does.  Now Europe is seeing its third wave because of waning vaccine antibodies.  Something needs to change fast or this will cycle never stop.  I am glad that I have had the virus and have acquired (non-vaccine) driven immunities. My body has long term memory cells so my problem is over as far as COVID 19 is concerned.

References:








						Efficacy and Safety of the mRNA-1273 SARS-CoV-2 Vaccine - PubMed
					

The mRNA-1273 vaccine showed 94.1% efficacy at preventing Covid-19 illness, including severe disease. Aside from transient local and systemic reactions, no safety concerns were identified. (Funded by the Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority and the National Institute of Allergy...




					pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				





			https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2035389
		



			https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2034577


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## Otis Mayfield (Oct 10, 2021)

No, vaccines give your immune system the secrete to finding and defeating the virus.


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## Billy_Bob (Oct 10, 2021)

Otis Mayfield said:


> No, vaccines give your immune system the secrete to finding and defeating the virus.


Incorrect...

Vaccines for other viruses, which do not have animal reservoirs, are long term fixes.  Vaccines for endemic viruses like COVID-19 are short term.  As I pointed out, mRNA vaccines are triggered by a part of the virus and not the virus itself, so long term protections are never formed.

Its a bit more complex than just "build a vaccine".  In the case of mRNA vaccines they are short term fixes at best. Without the ability to create long term immune system memory they do very little.


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## KissMy (Oct 10, 2021)

After puberty your body does not gain long term immunity to virus. Catching covid-19 will not make you more immune than vaccine. Only youth at the time vaccinated or infected will train the long term immunity. This is why the "Spanish Flu" did not kill the old people who had exposure when they were children, but killed the 20 to 40 year olds whom had no prior exposure.

The unvaxed are dying at the highest rates in their age groups.


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## Billy_Bob (Oct 10, 2021)

KissMy said:


> After puberty your body does not gain long term immunity to virus. Catching covid-19 will not make you more immune than vaccine. Only youth at the time vaccinated or infected will increase the long term immunity.


You don't have a clue.  Where did you get your degree in immunology?

Acquired immunities, from viral infection, are 27 times better than any vaccination.  Persons who dealt with SARS (a COVID virus) 17-20 years ago are not having a problem with the current COVID strain due to their long term ACQUIRED immunities.


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## White 6 (Oct 10, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> Incorrect...
> 
> Vaccines for other viruses, which do not have animal reservoirs, are long term fixes.  Vaccines for endemic viruses like COVID-19 are short term.  As I pointed out, mRNA vaccines are triggered by a part of the virus and not the virus itself, so long term protections are never formed.
> 
> Its a bit more complex than just "build a vaccine".  In the case of mRNA vaccines they are short term fixes at best. Without the ability to create long term immune system memory they do very little.


I figure (unscientifically, as I was a business major, not a biology major) there is some truth for one reason or another it what you are saying, as the body does not replicate efficiently the trigger and your system replaces all parts of your blood, reducing the effectiveness each time.

I just hope they can get to the point where the vaccine can be effective for at least a year, as I don't mind getting a yearly flu shot, and would not mind an annual covid shot, but won't be inclined toward another covid booster shot every three or four months.  I hope my body remembers what it learned fighting off the Covid when I got it, long before covid vaccines were invented.


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## KissMy (Oct 10, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> You don't have a clue.  Where did you get your degree in immunology?
> 
> Acquired immunities, from viral infection, are 27 times better than any vaccination.  Persons who dealt with SARS (a COVID virus) 17-20 years ago are not having a problem with the current COVID strain due to their long term ACQUIRED immunities.


My unvaccinated friends have been re-infected. One is 28yrs old already caught it 3 times. The unvaccinated are the ones clogging hospitals, not the vaccinated.


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## JohnDB (Oct 10, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> From the top, I am not "anti-vax". So please do not go there. I am posting this as a person with extensive knowledge in the medical field and simply posting empirical observations.
> 
> Modified RNA vaccines (mRNA) are designed to look for common parts of a virus. This makes creating a quick vaccine very easy but it also has negative problems that we are now having to deal with.
> 
> ...



Now we have an accurate representation of reality...
Thank you for this

And my only reply to this is that where these messenger RNA vaccines have a long history they have never been used in this application or as widespread as they currently are being used. 
Which has given us more information than we have ever had before.

But obviously from the results of the J&J one shot and AstraZeneca Oxford vaccine these two are obviously not providing an answer better than the mRNA vaccines are. 

The new Merk antiviral pill is also an intervention...but with some very severe side effects possible..same as the monoclonal antibodies...(although a new antibody has been discovered that is much better) 

And also considering the speed with which these vaccines came out...it is much better than anything else...it was something when we had nothing. 

As we continue to look for long term solutions these are our best hope in the meantime.


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## Billy_Bob (Oct 10, 2021)

KissMy said:


> My unvaccinated friends have been re-infected. One is 28yrs old already caught it 3 times. The unvaccinated are the ones clogging hospitals, not the vaccinated.


LOL...  Vaccinated people are 70% of current infections which have been hospitalized.  Very few people with acquired immunities are reinfected.  I'll lay odds that she has major health problems of some kind if that is the case.


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## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Oct 10, 2021)

Otis Mayfield said:


> No, vaccines give your immune system the secrete to finding and defeating the virus.


Not with covid.  Like the flu, it mutates out of self defense.  The lab that created covid-19 engineered it to resist vaccines.


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## Billy_Bob (Oct 10, 2021)

Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> Not with covid.  Like the flu, it mutates out of self defense.  The lab that created covid-19 engineered it to resist vaccines.


It also has animals that it can live and mutate in so there is no possibility of eradication.


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## Otis Mayfield (Oct 10, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> Incorrect...
> 
> Vaccines for other viruses, which do not have animal reservoirs, are long term fixes.  Vaccines for endemic viruses like COVID-19 are short term.  As I pointed out, mRNA vaccines are triggered by a part of the virus and not the virus itself, so long term protections are never formed.
> 
> Its a bit more complex than just "build a vaccine".  In the case of mRNA vaccines they are short term fixes at best. Without the ability to create long term immune system memory they do very little.






Never met someone on the forum who is as wrong as you.

And you profess to be an expert. lol


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## Bob Blaylock (Oct 10, 2021)

Otis Mayfield said:


> No, vaccines give your immune system the secrete to finding and defeating the virus.



  Bad English aside, that is exactly what genuine vaccines do.

  It's kind of the whole point of the OP as I read it, that these new mRNA-based pseudovaccines are failing, because they are not doing what genuine vaccines do.


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## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Oct 10, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> It also has animals that it can live and mutate in so there is no possibility of eradication.


Animal DNA/RNA/genetic material (whatever it's called) was added to covid in order to make it transmissible to humans.


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## Bob Blaylock (Oct 10, 2021)

Otis Mayfield said:


> Never met someone on the forum who is as wrong as you.



  Never looked in a mirror, then?


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## colfax_m (Oct 10, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> Where did you get your degree in immunology?


Where did you get yours?


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## JohnDB (Oct 10, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> LOL...  Vaccinated people are 70% of current infections which have been hospitalized.  Very few people with acquired immunities are re-infected.



That isn't true in my state or any of the states or areas I'm familiar with.  Currently being compiled data shows the exact opposite of this.


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## sparky (Oct 10, 2021)

Some valid points BB, compromised immunological response being one i'd personally like to delve into

devil / details....as they say.....

~S~


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## EvMetro (Oct 10, 2021)

KissMy said:


> After puberty your body does not gain long term immunity to virus. Catching covid-19 will not make you more immune than vaccine. Only youth at the time vaccinated or infected will train the long term immunity. This is why the "Spanish Flu" did not kill the old people who had exposure when they were children, but killed the 20 to 40 year olds whom had no prior exposure.
> 
> The unvaxed are dying at the highest rates in their age groups.


Bullshit


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## EvMetro (Oct 10, 2021)

KissMy said:


> My unvaccinated friends have been re-infected. One is 28yrs old already caught it 3 times. The unvaccinated are the ones clogging hospitals, not the vaccinated.


Quit making shit up.


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## LA RAM FAN (Oct 10, 2021)

EvMetro said:


> Quit making shit up.


He is a paid s


KissMy said:


> After puberty your body does not gain long term immunity to virus. Catching covid-19 will not make you more immune than vaccine. Only youth at the time vaccinated or infected will train the long term immunity. This is why the "Spanish Flu" did not kill the old people who had exposure when they were children, but killed the 20 to 40 year olds whom had no prior exposure.
> 
> The unvaxed are dying at the highest rates in their age groups.


Whatever paid Langley shill,thousands of doctors and nurses have exposed your lies.


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## LA RAM FAN (Oct 10, 2021)

EvMetro said:


> Quit making shit up.


He has to or his bosses from Langley will stop paying him to post his lies.


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## MaryL (Oct 10, 2021)

Otis Mayfield said:


> Never met someone on the forum who is as wrong as you.
> 
> And you profess to be an expert. lol


Anecdotally, I know  people that took this vaccine and then still got covid. Plus the basic fall back: Democrats last year refused to take it for political (not scientific) objections. Worked then works now.


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## L.K.Eder (Oct 10, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> From the top, I am not "anti-vax". So please do not go there. I am posting this as a person with extensive knowledge in the medical field and simply posting empirical observations.
> 
> Modified RNA vaccines (mRNA) are designed to look for common parts of a virus. This makes creating a quick vaccine very easy but it also has negative problems that we are now having to deal with.
> 
> ...


"I am posting this as a person with extensive knowledge in the medical field and simply posting empirical observations."

HAHAHAHAHA 
       

dr billy bob. tell us moar about the cytoplasm storm.


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## Billy_Bob (Oct 10, 2021)

JohnDB said:


> That isn't true in my state or any of the states or areas I'm familiar with.  Currently being compiled data shows the exact opposite of this.


The different states run the gambit...  I've seen both extremes.


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## Billy_Bob (Oct 10, 2021)

MaryL said:


> Anecdotally, I know  people that took this vaccine and then still got covid. Plus the basic fall back: Democrats last year refused to take it for political (not scientific) objections. Worked then works now.


Most people are totally ignorant of the fact that you will get this virus over and over again, vaccinated or not. The human immune system works by becoming infected.  IF you posses antibodies you will still become infected but it will be a short duration infection.  Everyone is going to get this virus at some point, vaccinated or not..


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## Billy_Bob (Oct 10, 2021)

L.K.Eder said:


> "I am posting this as a person with extensive knowledge in the medical field and simply posting empirical observations."
> 
> HAHAHAHAHA
> 
> ...


WOW.... Ignorance... and you can still post?  I can train a monkey to do this better than you do..


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## Wild Bill Kelsoe (Oct 10, 2021)

KissMy said:


> After puberty your body does not gain long term immunity to virus. Catching covid-19 will not make you more immune than vaccine. Only youth at the time vaccinated or infected will train the long term immunity. This is why the "Spanish Flu" did not kill the old people who had exposure when they were children, but killed the 20 to 40 year olds whom had no prior exposure.
> 
> The unvaxed are dying at the highest rates in their age groups.


You didn't read that before you posted it.  Did you?...lol


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## L.K.Eder (Oct 10, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> WOW.... Ignorance... and you can still post?  I can train a monkey to do this better than you do..


you are a poser. pretty much everything you posted is wrong. starting with your fake expertise, fucktard.


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## LA RAM FAN (Oct 10, 2021)

Wild Bill Kelsoe said:


> You didn't read that before you posted it.  Did you?...lol


Of course not,he is taught by his bosses not to look at facts thst expose his lies.


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## MaryL (Oct 10, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> Most people are totally ignorant of the fact that you will get this virus over and over again, vaccinated or not. The human immune system works by becoming infected.  IF you posses antibodies you will still become infected but it will be a short duration infection.  Everyone is going to get this virus at some point, vaccinated or not..


We are all mortal. We die in car accidents or slip on the soap in the bathtub. We get flesh eating bacteria. We electrocute ourselves. We fall off cliffs. I will not be frightened or coerced over this covid hysteria , ever.


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## MaryL (Oct 10, 2021)

I looked this up, Covid deaths are the third highest cause of mortality in America. Heart disease was 690K,  Cancer at 598K and then Covid at 345K. And then I broke that down further:  Over 70% of Covid deaths are those over 70 or above.


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## MaryL (Oct 10, 2021)

It's nice that people are concerned with the elderly and stuff. But locking down and justifying ruining our economy by folks that themselves refused to take a year ago...really?


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## JohnDB (Oct 10, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> The different states run the gambit...  I've seen both extremes.


According to the researchers this is NOT the case. 
Over 90% of the cases currently occupying the hospitals are unvaccinated...and ALL the cases in the ICU are unvaccinated.... usually only a single case or two in critical care wards of vaccinated patients...the vast majority are unvaccinated.


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## Billy_Bob (Oct 10, 2021)

MaryL said:


> I looked this up, Covid deaths are the third highest cause of mortality in America. Heart disease was 690K,  Cancer at 598K and then Covid at 345K. And then I broke that down further:  Over 70% of Covid deaths are those over 70 or above.


That is why we must use a targeted approach for those who need protections.  Those who have little or no threat to them need to get on with life.


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## JohnDB (Oct 10, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> That is why we must use a targeted approach for those who need protections.  Those who have little or no threat to them need to get on with life.


So you have abandoned your Hippocratic oath?


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## MaryL (Oct 10, 2021)

MaryL said:


> Anecdotally, I know  people that took this vaccine and then still got covid. Plus the basic fall back: Democrats last year refused to take it for political (not scientific) objections. Worked then works now.


We have to agree to disagree here. Amicably. There is this overarching and pesky issue of our constitutional rights. I will NOT be forced by my government to do something, EVER.


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## Billy_Bob (Oct 10, 2021)

JohnDB said:


> So you have abandoned your Hippocratic oath?


When the vaccines you want to put into peoples arms are worse than the disease they were meant to protect people from, that oath is extremely relevant.  DO NO HARM..  Vaccinating children, who are 6 time more likely to die from myocarditis than the disease is not living within the oath.

The dog your riding doesn't hunt here..


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## Care4all (Oct 10, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> From the top, I am not "anti-vax". So please do not go there. I am posting this as a person with extensive knowledge in the medical field and simply posting empirical observations.
> 
> Modified RNA vaccines (mRNA) are designed to look for common parts of a virus. This makes creating a quick vaccine very easy but it also has negative problems that we are now having to deal with.
> 
> ...


These vaccines are a very good temporary protection from severe sickness or death....and it makes sense that they don't develope all the different antibodies created by our bodies when we have had the full flege virus....  It's only protecting us via developing antibodies against the spike protein....which I believe is how the virus attaches to our cells to fully enter our bodies, and then make us sick??  And when sick with the virus, we develop other antibodies like B cells etc.that give us additional protections for other things regarding the virus that are not a part of these vaccines.

I'm not certain a traditional vaccine can be created for Corona viruses.  We've tried with the Common cold, SARS, and MERS.....couldn't develop one.....  in fact, I don't believe there has ever been a traditional vaccine that works for any Corona virus, ever.

I don't know why, or what the problem is with doing it, but we do have a problem, with not being able to create a traditional vaccine....at least so far....

These mRNA vaccines are a medical miracle, to have achieved some pretty good protection from severe illness from a Corona virus.

But as with many, I'm hoping they can improve these mRNA vaccines with more protection that doesn't wane so quickly and stops the spread, or some vaccine maker, somewhere, some day, can create a traditional or synthetic vaccine that also prevents the spread of infection, along with severe illness.....

Saying all that, here is what I am wondering, and hoping the scientists are going to study....

People vaccinated, that get a breakthrough case of covid infection, who don't get severely sick....  Do their bodies create the full range of antibodies that the other people who have caught covid created.... without being vaccinated???


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## JohnDB (Oct 10, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> When the vaccines you want to put into peoples arms are worse than the disease they were meant to protect people from, that oath is extremely relevant.  DO NO HARM..  Vaccinating children, who are 6 time more likely to die from myocarditis than the disease is not living within the oath.
> 
> The dog your riding doesn't hunt here..



So your long medical background history...

It's as a janitor... obviously. 

You mop toilets and floors in a retirement center eh?


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## MaryL (Oct 10, 2021)

Care4all said:


> These vaccines are a very good temporary protection from severe sickness or death....and it makes sense that they don't develope all the different antibodies created by our bodies when we have had the full flege virus....  It's only protecting us via developing antibodies against the spike protein....which I believe is how the virus attaches to our cells to fully enter our bodies, and then make us sick??  And when sick with the virus, we develop other antibodies like B cells etc.that give us additional protections for other things regarding the virus that are not a part of these vaccines.
> 
> I'm not certain a traditional vaccine can be created for Corona viruses.  We've tried with the Common cold, SARS, and MERS.....couldn't develop one.....  in fact, I don't believe there has ever been a traditional vaccine that works for any Corona virus, ever.
> 
> ...


Well lets let loose the hounds: Um people object to this vavcinene because

they used the cells of aborted feuts


Billy_Bob said:


> When the vaccines you want to put into peoples arms are worse than the disease they were meant to protect people from, that oath is extremely relevant.  DO NO HARM..  Vaccinating children, who are 6 time more likely to die from myocarditis than the disease is not living within the oath.
> 
> The dog your riding doesn't hunt here..


Yes it does. The mandated  Covid vaccine works as well as a condom full of holes prevents pregnancy. Why mandate it?


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## colfax_m (Oct 10, 2021)

Lots of vaccines use small parts of the virus. For example, the Hep B vaccine uses isolated surface antigen. I think Gardasil is the same. 

There’s not much to the outside of a COVID virus. Just spike protein and the envelope protein. The biggest benefit to using spike protein is that this site is highly likely to be conserved in mutations and antibodies directed against it are inactivating. 

As for durable immunity, Moderna’s vaccine seems to have far fewer problems and this may simply be fixed by a booster which is not unusual in the least.


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## MaryL (Oct 10, 2021)

I am over sixty years old. I remember polio and its effects. We took Salk's vaccine because it effected both presidents and plebs alike. No mass media hysteria or lockdowns. We took the inoculations and ate those sugar cubes because it had real and long-term effects. Covid, you get it you cough, you move on. This isn't a health care crisis. Its political ruse, end of story.


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## Billy_Bob (Oct 10, 2021)

Care4all said:


> People vaccinated, that get a breakthrough case of covid infection, who don't get severely sick.... Do their bodies create the full range of antibodies that the other people who have caught covid created.... without being vaccinated???


That is the problem, they do not.  

The current infection is controlled by the antibodies looking for the spike proteins.  The threat from the actual virus is never realized by the person recovering's immune system. It keeps looking for the spike proteins and new antibodies are trained to look for these spike proteins.  Once these antibodies wain there is no long term memory as the virus was never seen as a threat by the immune system.  

A person who becomes infected has to fight the viral load from scratch.  Thus the human immune system looks at every part of the virus. Once the human immune system gains control (finds the right combination of proteins) the bodies healing process creates B and T cells that are deposited in the bone marrow.  This is how long term immunities are created.

What people need to realize, the base virus, once identified, can help the body defend itself from mutations. Because the mRNA (messenger RNA) is looking for just the spike proteins it is limited in what it will train your body to identify.. Once the active antibodies are gone, so goes the protections they provide because they do not create long term memory.


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## MaryL (Oct 10, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> That is the problem, they do not.
> 
> The current infection is controlled by the antibodies looking for the spike proteins.  The threat from the actual virus is never realized by the person recovering's immune system. It keeps looking for the spike proteins and new antibodies are trained to look for these spike proteins.  Once these antibodies wain there is no long term memory as the virus was never seen as a threat by the immune system.
> 
> ...


Um Polio actually was an issue, Covid? This is what Noam Chomsky referred to as "manufactured consent".


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## Billy_Bob (Oct 10, 2021)

MaryL said:


> Um Polio actually was an issue, Covid? Tthis is what Noam Chomsky referred to as manufactured consent.


Polio has no animal reservoir.  The vaccine was derived from dead polio virus. That is why it is near eradication.  The body was trained to look for the virus as a whole.  COVID is now endemic and will never go away as it can survive in animals.  The best immunity for it is to get it, without a vaccine, and heal.  This is why people in high risk categories should be the only ones who are vaccinated. Give the general public at large the best immunity for it and then the overall threat to those who are high risk reduces .


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## ClaireH (Oct 10, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> From the top, I am not "anti-vax". So please do not go there. I am posting this as a person with extensive knowledge in the medical field and simply posting empirical observations.
> 
> Modified RNA vaccines (mRNA) are designed to look for common parts of a virus. This makes creating a quick vaccine very easy but it also has negative problems that we are now having to deal with.
> 
> ...


In reviewing your informative post there were several discrepancies, not on your end of course but on what’s been stated public by endorsers of the jabs. The US populace was misled intentionally by spokespeople with political and medical goals that could not be thwarted.

First deception: label the jab a “vaccination”. The intentional deception was to mislead the public to assume they were similar to traditional and sub vaccines when they knew otherwise.

Second deception: Promote the falsehood that the spike training method involved teaching the natural immune system to recognize COVID-19 to eliminate it.

Third deception: Inform populace to stay home because hospitals were out of PPE and needed time to restock to handle the bulk of business. Full truth: Fauci, NIH, and CDC all knew the 3 Pharma companies needed more time to rush their fake vaccines through. That is the full reason they flattened the curve. It was based upon a half-truth about PPE. Smoke and mirrors, public falls for it every time.

Fourth deception: mRNA “vaccines” are superior to natural infection of SARS-CoV-2. False and they knew it in the lab.
The strategy was to jab as many as possible before information leaked out. They were able to fool a lot of people because making short term comparisons 60 days out, 90 days maximum-didn’t yet show that natural immunity was in fact far superior as many already suspected.

Another whole layer of mess occurred because  political players and medical spokespeople created conditions ripe for falsifying medical records. Hospitals and nursing homes which marked a heart attack as a Covid death received money from the federal government. Many facilities got by with it, even when family members knew the truth and demanded a correction be made. A person who tested positive for COVID-19 in a local nursing home died from choking on his food in bed. His death certificate- died FROM Covid-19 and the facility received government money for it. Like all others.

2021 Nobel Prize winners- not a one remotely connected to mRNA. Of course, many were surprised by this and when one of the decision-makers was asked why that was the case he stated that it was “due to poor timing” because contenders must apply by February. Side note: Not buying that, but somebody will. Another member of the award committee, however, must not have received the internal memo about stating only positive remarks about mRNA and stated that they wanted to “make sure they were recognizing technology that would be used in the future”. I find this comment to be most significant.


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## Care4all (Oct 10, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> That is the problem, they do not.
> 
> The current infection is controlled by the antibodies looking for the spike proteins.  The threat from the actual virus is never realized by the person recovering's immune system. It keeps looking for the spike proteins and new antibodies are trained to look for these spike proteins.  Once these antibodies wain there is no long term memory as the virus was never seen as a threat by the immune system.
> 
> ...


Yes I do understand the limits of the vaccines.

My question, is what if you are a vaccinated person, who catches the virus...a breakthrough case, because you caught covid after vaccination....  Will that person develop additional antibodies because they actually caught covid19?  Is there an advantage to getting a covid19 infection while vaccinate, vs not catching covid19 while vaccinated?  Would the vaccinated person who still caught covid, be more protected against a new variant of covid than the person vaccinated who never caught it?  Are you sure catching it gives us no more protection?

And, another question, can they create through mRNA vaccine technology, a vaccine that also  triggers B cell etc antibody protection against covid19?


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## MaryL (Oct 10, 2021)

MaryL said:


> Um Polio actually was an issue, Covid? This is what Noam Chomsky referred to as manufactured consent.





MaryL said:


> Um Polio actually was an issue, Covid? Tthis is what Noam Chomsky referred to as manufactured consent.





Billy_Bob said:


> Polio has no animal reservoir.  The vaccine was derived from dead polio virus. That is why it is near eradication.  The body was trained to look for the virus as a whole.  COVID is now endemic and will never go away as it can survive in animals.  The best immunity for it is to get it, without a vaccine, and heal.  This is why people in high risk categories should be the only ones who are vaccinated. Give the general public at large the best immunity for it and then the overall threat to those who are high risk reduces .


Ok, Since this vaccine doesn't work, might counter religious beliefs (used stem sells from abortred fetuses for research) yadda yada, and the cherry on top is ...it's "mandated" and beside all that,  the fact democrat leaders reused to take it  last year. Same vaccine.


----------



## MaryL (Oct 10, 2021)

I almost want to get vaccinated anyway. It's like chicken soup, it won't help, but it can't hurt. I have taken all the other vaccines because I saw the effects of the things like Measles or Chicken pox or polio. I know people that got covid, they either didn't even notice or said it was like the flu. Then they got vaccinated, then got covid AGAIN. So, in this kabuki sideshow, what is the point?


----------



## AzogtheDefiler (Oct 10, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> From the top, I am not "anti-vax". So please do not go there. I am posting this as a person with extensive knowledge in the medical field and simply posting empirical observations.
> 
> Modified RNA vaccines (mRNA) are designed to look for common parts of a virus. This makes creating a quick vaccine very easy but it also has negative problems that we are now having to deal with.
> 
> ...


You’re anti vax. You swine!!!!

I kid. I am vaccinated. But I am really safe because I already had COVID.


----------



## Flopper (Oct 10, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> From the top, I am not "anti-vax". So please do not go there. I am posting this as a person with extensive knowledge in the medical field and simply posting empirical observations.
> 
> Modified RNA vaccines (mRNA) are designed to look for common parts of a virus. This makes creating a quick vaccine very easy but it also has negative problems that we are now having to deal with.
> 
> ...


I do not have extensive knowledge in the medical field but I have done a lot reading about mRNA.  As I understand what you're saying is the weakness in vaccine is that it attacks the spike protein and not the virus.   That does not make any sense to me because mRNA vaccines do not work like other vaccines.  They create a spike protein that is expelled from cells and recognized as a pathogen by the immune system which produce the immune response.  The mRNA vaccine is long gone from the body before the real virus attacks.

Once in the cell the mRNA vaccine uses the cell to produce a spike protein.   After this protein piece is made, the cell breaks down the mRNA vaccine (the instructions) and gets rid of them.

 Next, the cell displays this protein piece on its surface. Our immune systems recognize that the protein doesn’t belong there and begin building an immune response and making antibodies, like what happens in natural infection against COVID-19.

At the end of the process, our bodies have learned how to protect against future infection.  That information is stored in immune system memory.  So when the real virus enters the body, both antibodies that resulted from the vaccine and T Cells attack the virus. Also our our immune system memory has information stored needed to fight the virus. Having this stored information allow our immune system to rapidly identify the virus and provide the proper response.

So when you say, Modified RNA vaccines (mRNA) are designed to look for common parts of a virus this makes no sense because the only purpose of mRNA vaccine is facilitate the construction of a spike protein.









						Understanding mRNA COVID-19 Vaccines
					

Learn how mRNA vaccines trigger an immune response against COVID-19.




					www.cdc.gov


----------



## MaryL (Oct 10, 2021)

This Pfizer, Johnson & Johnson and Gullible & Twits manufactured a vaccine derived from fetal cells they want to hide and... AND it doesn't actually stop the virus, you say? Great selling point. Like selling condoms full of holes. They might work they might not. But you have to take them because...(same vaccine a year back the democrats REFUSED to take)...Because. They NOW mandate it. Ok.


----------



## Lesh (Oct 10, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> I am posting this as a person with extensive knowledge in the medical field and simply posting empirical observations.


Billy Bob is a hospital janitor

And from his own link

*Conclusions: *The mRNA-1273 vaccine showed 94.1% efficacy at preventing Covid-19 illness, including severe disease. Aside from transient local and systemic reactions, no safety concerns were identified. (Funded by the Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority and the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases; COVE ClinicalTrials.gov number, NCT04470427.).


----------



## MaryL (Oct 10, 2021)

Lesh said:


> Billy Bob is a hospital janitor
> 
> And from his own link
> 
> *Conclusions: *The mRNA-1273 vaccine showed 94.1% efficacy at preventing Covid-19 illness, including severe disease. Aside from transient local and systemic reactions, no safety concerns were identified. (Funded by the Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority and the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases; COVE ClinicalTrials.gov number, NCT04470427.).


Um I am not going to take this vaccine if it's mandated. Especially since it doesn't actually work. First second or  dozen times. I take natural immunity.


----------



## Lesh (Oct 10, 2021)

MaryL said:


> Um I am not going to take this vaccine if it's mandated. Especially since it doesn't actually work. First second or  dozen times. I take natural immunity.


Then stay the fuck away from me


----------



## MaryL (Oct 10, 2021)

Lesh said:


> Then stay the fuck away from m
> 
> 
> Lesh said:
> ...


----------



## Flopper (Oct 10, 2021)

MaryL said:


> This Pfizer, Johnson & Johnson and Gullible & Twits manufactured a vaccine derived from fetal cells they want to hide and... AND it doesn't actually stop the virus, you say? Great selling point. Like selling condoms full of holes. They might work they might not. But you have to take them because...(same vaccine a year back the democrats REFUSED to take)...Because. They NOW mandate it. Ok.


In general,  mRNA COVID-19 vaccines do not contain any aborted fetal cells. Fetal cell lines are not the same as fetal tissue. Fetal cell lines are cells that grow in a laboratory. They descend from cells taken from elective abortions in the 1970s and 1980s. 

Specific, in Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna vaccines - fetal cell lines were not used to produce or manufacture the vaccine, and they are not inside the injection you receive from your doctor/nurse.  

Furthermore, The Vatican has issued clear guidance that permits Roman Catholics in good faith to receive COVID-19 vaccines that use fetal cell lines in development or production. 

So if you're looking for a reason not to get vaccinated, you gonna have look somewhere else.


----------



## MaryL (Oct 10, 2021)

Flopper said:


> In general,  mRNA COVID-19 vaccines do not contain any aborted fetal cells. Fetal cell lines are not the same as fetal tissue. Fetal cell lines are cells that grow in a laboratory. They descend from cells taken from elective abortions in the 1970s and 1980s.
> 
> Specific, in Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna vaccines - fetal cell lines were not used to produce or manufacture the vaccine, and they are not inside the injection you receive from your doctor/nurse.
> 
> ...


I understand that. fetal cells where used to test  and develop this vaccine, Not the manufacture. Like other vaccines. And yet here we are. And Democrats refused to take Trumps "vaccine" over political reasons. Yeah. They set that  precedent.


----------



## MaryL (Oct 10, 2021)

The current corvid vaccine just doesn't work.  And  mandating it doesn't make sense.


----------



## Flopper (Oct 10, 2021)

MaryL said:


> I understand that. fetal cells where used to test  and develop this vaccine, Not the manufacture. Like other vaccines. And yet here we are. And Democrats refused to take Trumps "vaccine" over political reasons. Yeah. They set that  precedent.


Aborted fetal cells are not used today because they aren't needed.  Labs and manufactures us fetal lines which are descendent of fetal cells of 70's and 80's are used.  However, what I have read says neither Pfizer nor Modern use them.

 I doubt that democrats are refusing the virus because it was developed under the Trump administration.  Trump's part in the vaccine was to get the money from Congress and negotiate contracts.  Seattle which voted 88% democrat in the last election was 78% fully vaccinated in June and is now over 80%.  Thus  most Covid patients in Seattle hospitals are transferred from other places.


----------



## MaryL (Oct 10, 2021)

Flopper said:


> Aborted fetal cells are not used today because they aren't needed.  Labs and manufactures us fetal lines which are descendent of fetal cells of 70's and 80's are used.  However, what I have read says neither Pfizer nor Modern use them.
> 
> I doubt that democrats are refusing the virus because it was developed under the Trump administration.  Trump's part in the vaccine was to get the money from Congress and negotiate contracts.  Seattle which voted 88% democrat in the last election was 78% fully vaccinated in June and is not over 80%.





Flopper said:


> Aborted fetal cells are not used today because they aren't needed.  Labs and manufactures us fetal lines which are descendent of fetal cells of 70's and 80's are used.  However, what I have read says neither Pfizer nor Modern use them.
> 
> I doubt that democrats are refusing the virus because it was developed under the Trump administration.  Trump's part in the vaccine was to get the money from Congress and negotiate contracts.  Seattle which voted 88% democrat in the last election was 78% fully vaccinated in June and is now over 80%.  Thus  most Covid patients in Seattle hospitals are transferred from other places.


You doubt that. Ok. But anyway, yes  They did, and YES, DEMOCRATS used politics to abstain from being vaccinated.  That is a legal precedent. Please, don't deny it. Which makes this purely political, its not a health care issue.


----------



## Flopper (Oct 10, 2021)

MaryL said:


> The current corvid vaccine just doesn't work.  And  mandating it doesn't make sense.


If by not working, you mean the vaccine doesn't keep the virus from attacking your body, you're correct.  There is no radar in vaccines that would spot virus particles and shot them down before you snort them up.

However, if you mean they don't offer protection against getting seriously ill and dying, then you are wrong.  They keep our Covid wards  90% to 100% non-vaccinated.


----------



## Lastamender (Oct 10, 2021)

Frontline Covid-19 Critical Care

@Covid19Critical

***BREAKING SCANDAL*** FACT: Between 100-200 members of Congress and their families & staffers have been treated with IVM & our I-MASK+ protocol for COVID. NO hospitalizations. Not one of them reported that to the people. Saved themselves & stayed silent as IVM was torched.
Quote Tweet








Pierre Kory, MD MPA

@PierreKory
 · Oct 7
Fun fact: Between 100-200 United States Congress Members (plus many of their staffers & family members) with COVID.. were treated by a colleague over the past 15 months with ivermectin & the I-MASK+ protocol at Home - FLCCC | Front Line COVID-19 Critical Care Alliance. None have gone to hospital. Just sayin'
7:59 AM · Oct 8, 2021·Twitter Web App

Do I need to say proven liars again. You cannot believe one thing they say. They are the ones telling the election was not stolen.


----------



## MaryL (Oct 10, 2021)

Which tsakes this to an etrly new level





Flopper said:


> If by not working, you mean the vaccine doesn't keep the virus from attacking your body, you're correct.  There is no radar in vaccine that would spot virus particles and shot them down before you snort them up.
> 
> However, if you mean they don't offer protection against getting seriously ill and dying, then you are wrong.  They keep our Covid wards  90% to 100% non-vaccinated.


When Democrats used Politics to abstain from taking the SAME vaccine  in 2020 they (you) want to mandate in 2021...something isn't adding up here.


----------



## KissMy (Oct 10, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> LOL...  Vaccinated people are 70% of current infections which have been hospitalized.  Very few people with acquired immunities are reinfected.  I'll lay odds that she has major health problems of some kind if that is the case.


You are full of shit! Covid will not protect you any better than vaccine. The vaccine protects us from the initial damage from novel covid. Like the flu, nothing will prevent reinfection.


----------



## Billy_Bob (Oct 10, 2021)

Flopper said:


> I do not have extensive knowledge in the medical field but I have done a lot reading about mRNA.  As I understand what you're saying is the weakness in vaccine is that it attacks the spike protein and not the virus.   That does not make any sense to me because mRNA vaccines do not work like other vaccines.  They create a spike protein that is expelled from cells and recognized as a pathogen by the immune system which produce the immune response.  The mRNA vaccine is long gone from the body before the real virus attacks.
> 
> Once in the cell the mRNA vaccine uses the cell to produce a spike protein.   After this protein piece is made, the cell breaks down the mRNA vaccine (the instructions) and gets rid of them.
> 
> ...


The issue is one of mass.  The mass required before the human immune system recognizes the threat. Spike proteins are about 1/100th of the mass of the virus.  It take much longer for the body to recognize the reduced mass. SO you have a much delayed response.  The body reacts before it can determine that the virus is the real problem, so it never learns to look for it.  After the antibodies wain, the body has no clue what to look for as it never created the B and T cells that occur in the healing process.

It is the limited identification of the "spike protein" and the lack of immune system created memory that creates the problem.


----------



## Flopper (Oct 10, 2021)

MaryL said:


> You doubt that. Ok. But anyway, yes  They did, and YES, DEMOCRATS used politics to abstain from being vaccinated.  That is a legal precedent. Please, don't deny it. Which makes this purely political, its not a health care issue.


As of September 13, 2021, 52.8% of people in counties that voted for Biden were fully vaccinated compared to 39.9% of Trump counties, a 12.9 percentage point difference.  According to a Kaiser Foundation study,  of those surveyed, 90% of Democrats had been vaccinated..  A Gallup survey released on Sept. 29 confirmed the KFF findings. 
It showed a breakdown of those vaccinated was 92% democrats.








						The Red/Blue Divide in COVID-19 Vaccination Rates
					

This post examines a growing COVID-19 vaccine gap in Red and Blue America, with the share of the population that have been fully vaccinated in counties that voted for President Biden in 2020 increa…




					www.kff.org
				











						For COVID-19 vaccinations, party affiliation matters more than race and ethnicity
					

There's no reason to believe that these gaps in vaccination rates will disappear anytime soon.




					www.brookings.edu


----------



## Billy_Bob (Oct 10, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> You’re anti vax. You swine!!!!
> 
> I kid. I am vaccinated. But I am really safe because I already had COVID.


I had this virus nearly a year ago.  I still have high levels of antibodies and B/T cells.  This means I have the best immunity out there.  This is a good thing, because I have multiple issues that make me high risk.


----------



## MaryL (Oct 10, 2021)

Flopper said:


> If by not working, you mean the vaccine doesn't keep the virus from attacking your body, you're correct.  There is no radar in vaccines that would spot virus particles and shot them down before you snort them up.
> 
> However, if you mean they don't offer protection against getting seriously ill and dying, then you are wrong.  They keep our Covid wards  90% to 100% non-vaccinated.


 Well damn.. why are our political leaders mandating it then? It doesn't actually work or prevent the very thing its supposed to...excuse me?


----------



## AzogtheDefiler (Oct 10, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> I had this virus nearly a year ago.  I still have high levels of antibodies and B/T cells.  This means I have the best immunity out there.  This is a good thing, because I have multiple issues that make me high risk.


My MD believes the immunity is for life


----------



## MaryL (Oct 10, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> I had this virus nearly a year ago.  I still have high levels of antibodies and B/T cells.  This means I have the best immunity out there.  This is a good thing, because I have multiple issues that make me high risk.


Live long and prosper, bother. I am not going to buckle down over a contrived heath care crisis.  Ever.


----------



## Billy_Bob (Oct 10, 2021)

ClaireH said:


> In reviewing your informative post there were several discrepancies, not on your end of course but on what’s been stated public by endorsers of the jabs. The US populace was misled intentionally by spokespeople with political and medical goals that could not be thwarted.
> 
> First deception: label the jab a “vaccination”. The intentional deception was to mislead the public to assume they were similar to traditional and sub vaccines when they knew otherwise.
> 
> ...


I would add a fifth deception to your list.  Masking is ineffective.  Even the CDC"s own data shows that masking has a greater than 90% failure rate as a mitigation strategy. When one looks at the basic physical properties it is very apparent why.  COVID-19 is just 0.137 microns in size dry, water encapsulated it is just 1.675 microns in size.  N-95 masks start filtering at 2.5 to 5.0 microns in size. These aerosolized particles are not stopped by masking.  Cloth face coverings have holes the size of 100 microns in size. Medical procedure masks are not much better at 50 microns sized holes. Neither have seals and the air will follow the path of least resistance to the air flow, which is unfiltered.


----------



## Dont Taz Me Bro (Oct 10, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> LOL...  Vaccinated people are 70% of current infections which have been hospitalized.


No they aren’t


----------



## Dont Taz Me Bro (Oct 10, 2021)

KissMy said:


> My unvaccinated friends have been re-infected. One is 28yrs old already caught it 3 times.


Bullshit he did


----------



## Billy_Bob (Oct 10, 2021)

AzogtheDefiler said:


> My MD believes the immunity is for life


I would agree with that.  Each time you become infected those B and T cells are re-energized.  We know that the long term immunities to COVID are in excess of 20 years.


----------



## AzogtheDefiler (Oct 10, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> I would agree with that.  Each time you become infected those B and T cells are re-energized.  We know that the long term immunities to COVID are in excess of 20 years.


I got hit last March and still had my antibodies through June 2021. Now I am also vaccinated. Yet leftists still want us in masks. Leftists like Lesh drive wearing their mask even if they are alone in the car. LOL


----------



## Billy_Bob (Oct 10, 2021)

Dont Taz Me Bro said:


> No they aren’t


Try again..   There is a broad range of those who are hospitalized who are fully vaccinated. Some areas are as you say, primarily unvaccinated.  Other areas are not. Some areas, 70% of those in hospital beds were fully vaccinated.









						70% of fully vaccinated prisoners caught COVID-19 in a Texas Delta outbreak, the CDC says — but vaccines protected against severe disease
					

Of 129 fully vaccinated prisoners who caught COVID-19, only one was hospitalized. Unvaccinated people at the prison caught COVID-19 at a higher rate.




					www.businessinsider.com
				












						Most Covid patients at Israeli hospital fully vaccinated? What does this mean for Australia? | The Spectator Australia
					

Israel has been held up as the “gold standard” of how to conduct the coronavirus vaccine rollout. It has seen approximately 70% of its population receive the jab. The Israelis have relied in the main…




					www.spectator.com.au


----------



## MaryL (Oct 10, 2021)

Covid vaccines  don't do  a damned a damn thing.. What has the  covid vaccine done here? Um they don't actually cure Covid. Um, no. They might even create say mutations and variants. Great argument AGANIST this vaccine..


----------



## ClaireH (Oct 10, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> I would agree with that.  Each time you become infected those B and T cells are re-energized.  We know that the long term immunities to COVID are in excess of 20 years.


You're exactly right BB.

I found this informative:  "Cross-reactive T cells, like antibodies, were present in humans prior to SARS-CoV-2 exposures and increased following SARS-CoV-2 infections. Some studies suggested that human infections with common cold HCoVs afforded protection against disease caused by subsequent exposures to SARS-CoV-2."









						Cross-Reactive Immune Responses toward the Common Cold Human Coronaviruses and Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2): Mini-Review and a Murine Study - PubMed
					

While severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) causes serious morbidity and mortality in humans (coronavirus disease 2019, COVID-19), there is an enormous range of disease outcomes following virus exposures. Some individuals are asymptomatic while others succumb to virus...




					pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


----------



## Flopper (Oct 10, 2021)

KissMy said:


> You are full of shit! Covid will not protect you any better than vaccine. The vaccine protects us from the initial damage from novel covid. Like the flu, nothing will prevent reinfection.


Natural immunity which comes from being infected is very inconsistent. Studies of antibody levels from infected patients vary over a wide range.  Also some immunity last only a month or so and others last 6 months or more.  Also unlike vaccines, the strength of natural immunity is not known.  Anyone considering natural immunity in lieu of a vaccine should get an antibody test and repeated  it in order to determine if the antibody levels have fallen.

The problem is there is no way to equate an antibody level to efficiency level of a vaccine.  It is basically a crapshoot  which is why the CDC says get vaccinated even if you had covid.  The fact that so many people get re-infected does not speak well for natural immunity.


----------



## Flopper (Oct 10, 2021)

MaryL said:


> Covid vaccines  don't do  a damned a damn thing.. What has the  covid vaccine done here? Um they don't actually cure Covid. Um, no. They might even create say mutations and variants. Great argument AGANIST this vaccine..


They save lives and keep people out of the hospital.  That was the purpose of the vaccines and they are certainly fulfilling their purpose.


----------



## Dont Taz Me Bro (Oct 10, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> Try again..


I think you might want to try again and actually read your articles


----------



## ClaireH (Oct 10, 2021)

Flopper said:


> *Natural immunity which comes from being infected is very inconsistent.* Studies of antibody levels from infected patients vary over a wide range. so some immunity last only a month or so and others last 6 months or more.  Also unlike vacc Alines, the strength of natural immunity is not known.  Anyone considering natural immunity in lieu of a vaccine should get an antibody test and repeated  it in order to determine if the antibody levels have fallen.
> 
> The problem is there is no way to equate an antibody level to efficiency level of a vaccine.  It is basically a crapshoot  which is why the CDC says get vaccinated even if you had covid.  The fact that so many people get re-infected does not speak well for natural immunity.


Your words above in bold^ Please provide a source along with a source for "some immunity last only a month" statement. Thanks.

This study supports they'd hoped their product would perform as well as natural immunity. Read the abstract...it's in there.









						Low-dose mRNA-1273 COVID-19 vaccine generates durable memory enhanced by cross-reactive T cells - PubMed
					

Vaccine-specific CD4<sup>+</sup> T cell, CD8<sup>+</sup> T cell, binding antibody, and neutralizing antibody responses to the 25-μg Moderna messenger RNA (mRNA)–1273 vaccine were examined over the course of 7 months after immunization, including in multiple age groups, with a particular interest...




					pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


----------



## Billy_Bob (Oct 10, 2021)

Flopper said:


> Natural immunity which comes from being infected is very inconsistent.


Please provide citation for this.. This statement goes against everything I have researched. There are millions of people who had SARS ( another COVID virus strain) over 20 years ago and still have long term immunities from it.  Acquired immunities are far more durable than you state.


----------



## KissMy (Oct 11, 2021)

Flopper said:


> As of September 13, 2021, 52.8% of people in counties that voted for Biden were fully vaccinated compared to 39.9% of Trump counties, a 12.9 percentage point difference.  According to a Kaiser Foundation study,  of those surveyed, 90% of Democrats had been vaccinated..  A Gallup survey released on Sept. 29 confirmed the KFF findings.
> It showed a breakdown of those vaccinated was 92% democrats.
> 
> 
> ...


Yup! Trump supporters are dropping dead at much higher rates.


----------



## Aletheia4u (Oct 11, 2021)

These scientists are trying to create a synthetic genetically modified version or a robotic version of the natural antibodies so that they can patent it. It is because antibodies like penicillin are natural that it cannot be patented. But only the method that they use creating these antibodies can be patented.  but after 20years, these patents are exhausted. 

 And so they are trying to create their own immune system. But none of their synthetic versions can substitute our natural immunity. 

 And so they are experimenting on us to see if they can create a patented version. But it will never work because there is nothing better than our natural immunity. 

 That there is a natural cure for everything. Even for the man-made diseases. But they don't want you to know. 










						The History of Penicillin and Antibiotics
					

We take penicillin and antibiotics for granted but developing them was a tedious process. Learn about scientific pioneers who made them possible.




					www.thoughtco.com
				













						Genetically modified cells secrete HIV neutralizing antibodies
					

A study using modified CD34 cells to secrete broadly neutralizing antibodies to suppress HIV in a preclinical model



					www.fredhutch.org


----------



## Baron (Oct 11, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> From the top, I am not "anti-vax". So please do not go there. I am posting this as a person with extensive knowledge in the medical field and simply posting empirical observations.
> 
> Modified RNA vaccines (mRNA) are designed to look for common parts of a virus. This makes creating a quick vaccine very easy but it also has negative problems that we are now having to deal with.
> 
> ...



They will fail because all tested animals died within the short time


----------



## badger2 (Oct 11, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> From the top, I am not "anti-vax". So please do not go there. I am posting this as a person with extensive knowledge in the medical field and simply posting empirical observations.
> 
> Modified RNA vaccines (mRNA) are designed to look for common parts of a virus. This makes creating a quick vaccine very easy but it also has negative problems that we are now having to deal with.
> 
> ...


Problems not foreseen? Such as the viral loads in mouths and throats in conjunction with airborne transmission? How does mRNA technology work on the surfaces of mouths and throats?


----------



## badger2 (Oct 11, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> Incorrect...
> 
> Vaccines for other viruses, which do not have animal reservoirs, are long term fixes.  Vaccines for endemic viruses like COVID-19 are short term.  As I pointed out, mRNA vaccines are triggered by a part of the virus and not the virus itself, so long term protections are never formed.
> 
> Its a bit more complex than just "build a vaccine".  In the case of mRNA vaccines they are short term fixes at best. Without the ability to create long term immune system memory they do very little.


The best vaccine, Einstein, would have come from the animal model par excellence: the animal reservoir. What is it?


----------



## jknowgood (Oct 11, 2021)

JohnDB said:


> According to the researchers this is NOT the case.
> Over 90% of the cases currently occupying the hospitals are unvaccinated...and ALL the cases in the ICU are unvaccinated.... usually only a single case or two in critical care wards of vaccinated patients...the vast majority are unvaccinated.


You're so full of crap.


----------



## AsherN (Oct 11, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> From the top, I am not "anti-vax". So please do not go there. I am posting this as a person with extensive knowledge in the medical field and simply posting empirical observations.
> 
> Modified RNA vaccines (mRNA)



Someone with 'Extensive k nowledge in the medical field" Should know that the "m" in mRNA stands for messenger, not modified...


----------



## JohnDB (Oct 11, 2021)

jknowgood said:


> You're so full of crap.


So....
Since your comradery with fellow antivaxxers is in conflict with your desire to protect yourself from coronavirus by becoming vaccinated (especially over the impending holidays) you have decided to firm up your stance one last time by engaging in arguing...

But the best you can come up with is this?  

Go to Walmart and get it over with already!
Get your first shot and make an appointment for the second at the same time...
I won't tell.


----------



## jknowgood (Oct 11, 2021)

JohnDB said:


> So....
> Since your comradery with fellow antivaxxers is in conflict with your desire to protect yourself from coronavirus by becoming vaccinated (especially over the impending holidays) you have decided to firm up your stance one last time by engaging in arguing...
> 
> But the best you can come up with is this?
> ...


I'm not getting it, but you are free to do so.


----------



## colfax_m (Oct 11, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> Please provide citation for this.. This statement goes against everything I have researched. There are millions of people who had SARS ( another COVID virus strain) over 20 years ago and still have long term immunities from it.  Acquired immunities are far more durable than you state.


Millions? 

Or thousands…









						2002–2004 SARS outbreak - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org


----------



## JohnDB (Oct 11, 2021)

jknowgood said:


> I'm not getting it, but you are free to do so.


----------



## EvMetro (Oct 11, 2021)

JohnDB said:


> According to the researchers this is NOT the case.
> Over 90% of the cases currently occupying the hospitals are unvaccinated...and ALL the cases in the ICU are unvaccinated.... usually only a single case or two in critical care wards of vaccinated patients...the vast majority are unvaccinated.


Unsubstantiated bullshit.


----------



## EvMetro (Oct 11, 2021)

MaryL said:


> I almost want to get vaccinated anyway. It's like chicken soup, it won't help, but it can't hurt...


Vaccine injuries are real.  Vaers data shows that there are risks, and that it CAN hurt to get it.


----------



## Billy_Bob (Oct 11, 2021)

AsherN said:


> Someone with 'Extensive k nowledge in the medical field" Should know that the "m" in mRNA stands for messenger, not modified...


It is the messenger that is modified... Thanks for playing..  It is a Modified RNA vaccine.


----------



## Billy_Bob (Oct 11, 2021)

badger2 said:


> Problems not foreseen? Such as the viral loads in mouths and throats in conjunction with airborne transmission? How does mRNA technology work on the surfaces of mouths and throats?


They did not anticipate viral load build up.  They thought the bodies immune system would kill it with the spike proteins activation.  That didn't happen.  Because the immune system looks for the 'mass' of the threat (proportional response) it is slow to react, which allows this viral load to happen.


----------



## mamooth (Oct 11, 2021)

MaryL said:


> Covid, you get it you cough, you move on.


In the USA, COVID has a 1.6% death rate for those who get it. 

And that's with heroic medical care.

And that doesn't take into account the much higher rate of permanent disability in survivors.

If you are not vaccinated, you are much more likely to die of COVID than to die in a car accident.

Just putting things in perspective.

And no, the vaccine does not use fetal tissue. That's bad propaganda.


----------



## KissMy (Oct 11, 2021)

jknowgood said:


> I'm not getting it, but you are free to do so.


If you refuse the ounce of vaccine prevention, make sure you send a letter to the over burdened ambulance service, over stressed hospitals & your insurance carrier that you don't want any assistance from them to cure you of covid when you catch it. Under no circumstances should they lift a finger to help no matter how much you or your family beg.


----------



## jknowgood (Oct 11, 2021)

KissMy said:


> If you refuse the ounce of vaccine prevention, make sure you send a letter to the over burdened ambulance service, over stressed hospitals & your insurance carrier that you don't want any assistance from them to cure you of covid when you catch it. Under no circumstances should they lift a finger to help no matter how much you or your family beg.






Ok, then we tell everybody right? Oh and if you get complications from the vaccine. You're on your own, can't sue. Oh and this also.


----------



## EvMetro (Oct 11, 2021)

mamooth said:


> If you are not vaccinated, you are much more likely to die of COVID than to die in a car accident.


Either way you die though, it will still be counted as a covid death.


----------



## KissMy (Oct 11, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> That is the problem, they do not.
> 
> The current infection is controlled by the antibodies looking for the spike proteins.  The threat from the actual virus is never realized by the person recovering's immune system. It keeps looking for the spike proteins and new antibodies are trained to look for these spike proteins.  Once these antibodies wain there is no long term memory as the virus was never seen as a threat by the immune system.
> 
> ...


You are completely full of shit!

Covid reinfection of people who were not vaccinated had 2.34 times the odds of reinfection compared with those who were fully vaccinated. I know many re-infected covid survivors & some 3 times infected.


----------



## ClaireH (Oct 11, 2021)

Aletheia4u said:


> These scientists are trying to create a synthetic genetically modified version or a robotic version of the natural antibodies so that they can patent it. It is because antibodies like penicillin are natural that it cannot be patented. But only the method that they use creating these antibodies can be patented.  but after 20years, these patents are exhausted.
> 
> And so they are trying to create their own immune system. But none of their synthetic versions can substitute our natural immunity.
> 
> ...


Excellent point about there being natural substances to use for all ailments known. Many effective plant sourced remedies are found within the Amazon Region, and this medicinal knowledge is at risk because indigenous people and their languages are literally dying out. The challenge now is to preserve these languages to have the ability to learn from these tribes.

There is a delicate balance between indigenous tribes and exposing them to “our” diseases/illnesses via direct contact. It is a legitimate concern that I have about how ego-driven scientists- there are many as with most pursuance fields- could use this piece to infiltrate and destroy areas and animal species in their quest for knowledge. Just like we have with teams of researchers currently exploring the Amazon looking actively looking for the “next pandemic”. Sounds risky, yes?









						Knowledge of medicinal plants at risk as languages die out
					

Loss of linguistic diversity means less chance to discover age-old remedies not known to science, study warns




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Billy_Bob (Oct 11, 2021)

KissMy said:


> You are completely full of shit!
> 
> Covid reinfection of people who were not vaccinated had 2.34 times the odds of reinfection compared with those who were fully vaccinated. I know many re-infected covid survivors & some 3 times infected.


"Currently, limited evidence concerning the protection afforded by vaccination against reinfection with SARS-CoV-2 is available."

That is because there is no protections generated from mRNA vaccines..  You failed to read your own link.


----------



## Lastamender (Oct 11, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> "Currently, limited evidence concerning the protection afforded by vaccination against reinfection with SARS-CoV-2 is available."
> 
> That is because there is no protections generated from mRNA vaccines..  You failed to read your own link.


Monkey see, monkey do requires no reading at all. Remember, that is what you are dealing with.


----------



## DrLove (Oct 11, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> You don't have a clue.  Where did you get your degree in immunology?
> 
> Acquired immunities, from viral infection, are 27 times better than any vaccination.  Persons who dealt with SARS (a COVID virus) 17-20 years ago are not having a problem with the current COVID strain due to their long term ACQUIRED immunities.


Where did you get your degree in virology .. Hmmmm


----------



## Flopper (Oct 11, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> The issue is one of mass.  The mass required before the human immune system recognizes the threat. Spike proteins are about 1/100th of the mass of the virus.  It take much longer for the body to recognize the reduced mass. SO you have a much delayed response.  The body reacts before it can determine that the virus is the real problem, so it never learns to look for it.  After the antibodies wain, the body has no clue what to look for as it never created the B and T cells that occur in the healing process.
> 
> It is the limited identification of the "spike protein" and the lack of immune system created memory that creates the problem.


According all documents I have read mRNA vaccines do  create immune system memory of the virus.  In addition the vaccine created spike protein causes an immune system response producing antibodies.   So when the pathogen enters the body, these antibodies in will produce an immediate response and the immune system memory will provide longer term response.

Probably the strongest evidence that these vaccines work is the small number of vaccinated patents in covid wards compared to the unvaccinated even when most patients are infected with the delta variant.  The preponderance of vaccinated patients compared to unvaccinated patients have been a subject of multiple studies including both alpha and delta variants.  These studies support the vaccine manufactures claims that the vaccines are very effective at preventing  serious illness, hospitalizations, and death due to Covid-19.

BTW the spike protein may be a relative small percent of the mass of virus but it is found not just in crowns but in the membrane that encapsulates the virus. Without it the virus would be inert unable to break into cell walls and replicate. 

What are Spike Proteins?


----------



## KissMy (Oct 11, 2021)

jknowgood said:


> View attachment 550480
> Ok, then we tell everybody right? Oh and if you get complications from the vaccine. You're on your own, can't sue. Oh and this also.
> View attachment 550485


I don't care about you gay AIDS patients, but they aren't clogging hospitals. Unvaxed covids are the ones who clogged the ER causing my wife & I did not to get treated for concussions from a major accident do to driver running stop sign totaling all vehicles. I don't care if Fat people don't get heart attack treatment when hospitals are stressed. The insurance companies already exclude those pre-existing conditions & jack up their premium anyhow. Exclude all the Over Dose patients, Obese Heart attacks, Unvaxed & Gay AIDS when wait times exceed 1 hour.


----------



## jknowgood (Oct 11, 2021)

KissMy said:


> I don't care about you gay AIDS patients, but they aren't clogging hospitals. Unvaxed covids are the ones who clogged the ER causing my wife & I did not to get treated for concussions from a major accident do to driver running stop sign totaling all vehicles. I don't care if Fat people don't get heart attack treatment when hospitals are stressed. The insurance companies already exclude those pre-existing conditions & jack up their premium anyhow. Exclude all the Over Dose patients, Obese Heart attacks, Unvaxed & Gay AIDS when wait times exceed 1 hour.


You're being lied to.


----------



## Turtlesoup (Oct 11, 2021)

KissMy said:


> After puberty your body does not gain long term immunity to virus. Catching covid-19 will not make you more immune than vaccine. Only youth at the time vaccinated or infected will train the long term immunity. This is why the "Spanish Flu" did not kill the old people who had exposure when they were children, but killed the 20 to 40 year olds whom had no prior exposure.
> 
> The unvaxed are dying at the highest rates in their age groups.


That's not true at all......I had covid in January-----I got a huge viral load of it again a couple of weeks ago---and I didn't get sick.    Your faux vaccines start failing at the 2 month mark and just keep shooting down from there.  10 months later, I am immune to where I really don't get sick and basically have gotten another free booster to my immunity from January-----I should be good for another 10 months minimum...no vaccine can say this.


----------



## Turtlesoup (Oct 11, 2021)

KissMy said:


> You are completely full of shit!
> 
> Covid reinfection of people who were not vaccinated had 2.34 times the odds of reinfection compared with those who were fully vaccinated. I know many re-infected covid survivors & some 3 times infected.


How are you defining FULLY vaccinated?   Because it takes two doses---and even then doesn't start counting as fully vaccinated till after you survive the covid vaccine 20-28 days after the second dose with no severe issues...and then starting 2 after the 2nd dose---any protection steadily goes down.   That's a small window to be fully vaccinated.


----------



## Flopper (Oct 11, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> I would add a fifth deception to your list.  Masking is ineffective.  Even the CDC"s own data shows that masking has a greater than 90% failure rate as a mitigation strategy. When one looks at the basic physical properties it is very apparent why.  COVID-19 is just 0.137 microns in size dry, water encapsulated it is just 1.675 microns in size.  N-95 masks start filtering at 2.5 to 5.0 microns in size. These aerosolized particles are not stopped by masking.  Cloth face coverings have holes the size of 100 microns in size. Medical procedure masks are not much better at 50 microns sized holes. Neither have seals and the air will follow the path of least resistance to the air flow, which is unfiltered.



*CDC*
The hole in your argument is the principal mode by which people are infected with SARS-CoV-2 (the virus that causes COVID-19) is through exposure to respiratory fluids carrying infectious virus. These respiratory fluids take the form of large and small respiratory droplets as well as aerosols containing viral particles which can be snared by multilayer masks, typically 50% to 90% depending on the mask








						Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)
					

CDC provides credible COVID-19 health information to the U.S.




					www.cdc.gov
				




*CDC*
Multi-layer cloth masks can both block up to 50-70% of these fine droplets and particles 3,14 and limit the forward spread of those that are not captured.5,6,15,16 Upwards of 80% blockage has been achieved in human experiments that have measured blocking of all respiratory droplets,4 with cloth masks in some studies performing on par with surgical masks as barriers for source control.3,9,14








						Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)
					

CDC provides credible COVID-19 health information to the U.S.




					www.cdc.gov
				




*American Medical Association*
Community mask wearing substantially reduces transmission of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) in 2 ways. First, masks prevent infected persons from exposing others to SARS-CoV-2 by blocking exhalation of virus-containing droplets into the air (termed _source control_). This aspect of mask wearing is especially important because it is estimated that at least 50% or more of transmissions are from persons who never develop symptoms or those who are in the presymptomatic phase of COVID-19 illness.
Effectiveness of Mask Wearing to Control Community Spread of SARS-CoV-2

*National Academy of Science*
The preponderance of evidence indicates that mask wearing reduces transmissibility per contact by reducing transmission of infected respiratory particles in both laboratory and clinical contexts. Public mask wearing is most effective at reducing spread of the virus when compliance is high.








						An evidence review of face masks against COVID-19
					

The science around the use of masks by the public to impede COVID-19 transmission is advancing rapidly. In this narrative review, we develop an analytical framework to examine mask usage, synthesizing the relevant literature to inform multiple areas: population impact, transmission...




					www.pnas.org
				




*Fact Check -Misinformation About Masks*
Initially, there was limited evidence to support broad masking policies for the general public, and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recommended masks only for those infected and medical providers treating them. On April 3, 2020, the CDC reversed course and recommended that everyone wear face coverings in public, citing new data that showed a “significant portion” of people infected with the coronavirus lack symptoms but can spread the virus to others. 

Since then, a growing body of evidence supports the use of masks to slow the spread of COVID-19, as we reported in March. 

Numerous lab studies, for example, show that high-quality, well-fitting masks can partially block exhaled respiratory droplets, which are thought to be the primary way the virus spreads — and may offer some protection to the wearer. In one CDC study, N95 respirators performed the best in preventing the spread of particles from a simulated cough — blocking 99% of the particles — while medical masks blocked 59% and a cloth mask blocked 51%. (See SciCheck’s “The Evolving Science of Face Masks and COVID-19.”)
Today misinformation about masks and vaccines are appearing on the Internet and social media every more frequently. Often citing CDC statements that were made or taken out context. 








						Misinformation About Face Masks - FactCheck.org
					

A growing body of evidence supports the use of masks to slow the spread of COVID-19. But the effectiveness of masks is now being challenged again. Here we summarize some of our work over the past 16 months, based on categories of misinformation about masking.




					www.factcheck.org


----------



## Flopper (Oct 11, 2021)

Turtlesoup said:


> That's not true at all......I had covid in January-----I got a huge viral load of it again a couple of weeks ago---and I didn't get sick.    Your faux vaccines start failing at the 2 month mark and just keep shooting down from there.  10 months later, I am immune to where I really don't get sick and basically have gotten another free booster to my immunity from January-----I should be good for another 10 months minimum...no vaccine can say this.


This is anecdotal evidence. Maybe it's true or maybe it isn't or maybe you are just exceptional or just plain lucky.  I will go with scientific evidence that vaccine do work at saving lives and preventing serious illness.

The problem with relying on natural immunity is that it's not very reliable.   In a study at Vanderbilt University Medical Center in Nashville, Tennessee, researchers found that 58 percent of those who tested positive for SARS-CoV-2 antibodies in April tested negative only two months later. Their antibody levels dropped so precipitously, they were no longer detectable. Even the 42 percent of personnel whose antibody levels remained above threshold still experienced a significant decline.  In a study done at MIT of students who tested positive for Covid-19, a year later 20% had no detected antibodies at all, 35% had antibodies but not enough to have a strong immunity and the remaining 45% had a level believed to be high enough to provide at some immunity to the virus.

Another fact which the CDC used in it's decision not to consider previous infections in recommendations is the number of people who were seriously ill but had tested positive covid months early. 

Bottom line is if you want to gamble, natural immunity might be a go bet but then again maybe not.  I think I will stick with the scientific evidence from clinical trials of tens of thousands people and studies of serious infection among those that receive 400 million vaccinations which shows that the vaccines have been very effective at preventing serious illness and death.








						Why We Can’t Rely On Natural Immunity To Protect Us From Covid-19
					

A new study, compounded with recent reports of reinfection, shows why building immunity to Covid-19 is trickier than we'd like to believe.




					www.forbes.com


----------



## Bootney Lee Farnsworth (Oct 18, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> * The "trigger" for your immune system is the spike proteins and not the virus. The human bodies immune system never trains itself to look for the virus. No long term immunity is formed.


This right here is enough to call mRNA INEFFECTIVE!!!  It does no long-term immunity, so you have to be reliant on a jab every 3-6 months.  

It's akin to manufacturers engineering around the concept of interchangeable parts to make more fucking money for no added benefit to the consumer.


----------



## Flopper (Oct 18, 2021)

Bootney Lee Farnsworth said:


> This right here is enough to call mRNA INEFFECTIVE!!!  It does no long-term immunity, so you have to be reliant on a jab every 3-6 months.
> 
> It's akin to manufacturers engineering around the concept of interchangeable parts to make more fucking money for no added benefit to the consumer.


This  topic is based on a loaded question that contains an assumption that vaccines are ineffective which is not true.  There's enough evidence both scientific and anecdotal to convince anyone with half brain.

For your information a number vaccinates do not nave long term immunity.  The flu vaccine last about 5 to 6 mos., the new Malaria vaccine about 3 to 5 years. The pneumonia vaccine 1 to 10 years depending on the patient and Tetanus about 10 years, Hepatitis once in life time.  Some vaccines need to be repeated and other's don't doesn't.  That does not make them ineffective.     

BTW, there are two drug companies working on combo covid and flu vaccine yearly vaccine.


----------



## Rogue AI (Oct 18, 2021)

Flopper said:


> This  topic is based on a loaded question that contains an assumption that vaccines are ineffective which is not true.  There's enough evidence both scientific and anecdotal to convince anyone with half brain.
> 
> For your information a number vaccinates do not nave long term immunity.  The flu vaccine last about 5 to 6 mos., the new Malaria vaccine about 3 to 5 years. The pneumonia vaccine 1 to 10 years depending on the patient and Tetanus about 10 years, Hepatitis once in life time.  Some vaccines need to be repeated and other's don't doesn't.  That does not make them ineffective.
> 
> BTW, there are two drug companies working on combo covid and flu vaccine yearly vaccine.


Why is Pfizer making covid pills if they already produced a 'vaccine'? 









						Pfizer COVID-19 Treatment Pill: What You Need to Know
					

Pfizer's oral drug to treat COVID-19, Paxlovid, is now FDA-authorized. People will be able to take the drug at home, possibly eliminating the need to visit a hospital.




					www.verywellhealth.com


----------



## Flopper (Oct 19, 2021)

Rogue AI said:


> Why is Pfizer making covid pills if they already produced a 'vaccine'?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Barring another highly infectious variate, Covid will move from epidemic to endemic within the next 12 to 18 months.  This means it will no longer be consider a pubic Heath emergency. There will still be pocket outbreaks to be treated. In many undeveloped  countries the epidemic will continue for years.


----------



## Rogue AI (Oct 19, 2021)

Flopper said:


> Barring another highly infectious variate, Covid will move from epidemic to endemic within the next 12 to 18 months.  This means it will no longer be consider a pubic Heath emergency. There will still be pocket outbreaks to be treated. In many undeveloped the epidemic will continue for years.


If people were actually vaccinated that wouldn't matter. This experimental treatment is not a vaccine. The sooner you folks figure it out the sooner we can move on.


----------



## Independentthinker (Oct 19, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> From the top, I am not "anti-vax". So please do not go there. I am posting this as a person with extensive knowledge in the medical field and simply posting empirical observations.
> 
> Modified RNA vaccines (mRNA) are designed to look for common parts of a virus. This makes creating a quick vaccine very easy but it also has negative problems that we are now having to deal with.
> 
> ...


Exactly. I've been trying to explain this to the left for months now and they just don't get it. They are pre-programmed to believe, *vaccine stops virus*. The virus has been spreading because both the unvaccinated AND the vaccinated are spreading it. Therefore, vaccine mandates and passports are actually creating a false sense of security that as long as you are vaccinated you can go out in masse and do whatever the hell you want and the virus won't spread, because you're vaccinated when, in reality the vaccinated DO spread the virus. They seem to have no clue that this thing spreads as fast as it does because the asymptomatic are spreading it and that includes the vaccinated. They seem to have no clue that 100% of the vaccinated, if exposed to enough of the virus, would get and spread the virus and the left have made it so that breakthrough cases reported are only from those hospitalized or die while the vaccinated asymptomatic are not counted as breakthrough cases and are spreading the virus like wild fire. The left are perfectly fine with a football stadium filled with 80,000 only vaccinated people and that that will somehow be safe because, hey, they're vaccinated and, if cases rise shortly afterward, they'll just blame it all on the unvaccinated.


----------



## Billy_Bob (Oct 24, 2021)

And now 6 nations and many others are stopping the use of many of these mRNA vaccines.









						Sweden halts use of Moderna's COVID vaccine in under 30s
					

National health agency says "very minor" risk of certain side effects appears linked to 2nd dose of the vaccine, and was more prevalent among young men and boys.




					www.cbsnews.com


----------



## Circe (Oct 24, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> Incorrect...
> 
> Vaccines for other viruses, which do not have animal reservoirs, are long term fixes.  Vaccines for endemic viruses like COVID-19 are short term.  As I pointed out, mRNA vaccines are triggered by a part of the virus and not the virus itself, so long term protections are never formed.
> 
> Its a bit more complex than just "build a vaccine".  In the case of mRNA vaccines they are short term fixes at best. Without the ability to create long term immune system memory they do very little.


I feel strongly that the lousy influenza and Covid vaccines have damaged the reputation of the scientific and medical communities. They DID, yes, pass both off as total prevention for the diseases, we're saved! We're saved!! but that was a total lie in both cases, flu and Covid. Neither are worthy of the name vaccines, which actually do prevent disease. 

They've been backtracking ever since. The shot didn't stop the disease, it didn't prevent spread, it didn't keep us from getting it over and over. It's essentially worthless, unless it's true it "protects against hospitalization," whatever that means, but since they have lied about absolutely everything right from the "two weeks to slow the curve" (it didn't slow the curve and we still have a lot of Covid going on, as much as ever), I suppose they've lied about the so-called vaccine ameliorating the severity of the disease. I hope not, but they definitely have lied about everything else.


----------



## Circe (Oct 24, 2021)

Independentthinker said:


> They are pre-programmed to believe, *vaccine stops virus*.


Sure. THAT is why these liars called it a VACCINE. So we'd be fooled. I can't see the point in fooling us, since nothing worked and we've had surge after surge after surge and Britain is having another surge right now and we usually follow them, so ------- it's still not working.

They used a word for something magic, a miracle of 20th century medicine, something we apparently can no longer do (and which always took decades to develop in each case for each disease), to fool us and make fools of us, sheep.

And the Left believes them because they are sheep and can't read the plain graphs, with surge after surge. What happened to your two weeks to slow the curve, leftists? What happened to your total immunity promises? What happened to ending the pandemic? Can't you see you've been tricked?


----------



## Billy_Bob (Oct 24, 2021)

Circe said:


> I feel strongly that the lousy influenza and Covid vaccines have damaged the reputation of the scientific and medical communities. They DID, yes, pass both off as total prevention for the diseases, we're saved! We're saved!! but that was a total lie in both cases, flu and Covid. Neither are worthy of the name vaccines, which actually do prevent disease.
> 
> They've been backtracking ever since. The shot didn't stop the disease, it didn't prevent spread, it didn't keep us from getting it over and over. It's essentially worthless, unless it's true it "protects against hospitalization," whatever that means, but since they have lied about absolutely everything right from the "two weeks to slow the curve" (it didn't slow the curve and we still have a lot of Covid going on, as much as ever), I suppose they've lied about the so-called vaccine ameliorating the severity of the disease. I hope not, but they definitely have lied about everything else.


mRNA vaccines use part of a cell to trigger the immune response. The human body does not map partial cells in the long term immunities. Once your antibodies are gone so is your protection from the virus.  This is why they are screaming for more shots to be given.  While they do lessen the severity of the infection they do not allow your body to learn what it needs to protect you from. That same virus can later kill you. I wonder if that is all by design.

That would definitely give big pharma an endless stream of money... Never ending boosters..


----------



## Circe (Oct 24, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> mRNA vaccines use part of a cell to trigger the immune response. The human body does not map partial cells in the long term immunities. Once your antibodies are gone so is your protection from the virus.  This is why they are screaming for more shots to be given.  While they do lessen the severity of the infection they do not allow your body to learn what it needs to protect you from. That same virus can later kill you. I wonder if that is all by design.
> 
> That would definitely give big pharma an endless stream of money... Never ending boosters..


I think they just don't know how yet. If they take the usual several years to develop it properly, who knows, we might have a handle on how to fight ALL the mRNA viruses. 

But I hear you: I can't stand to think what you just said, but I admit I'm chronically naive.


----------



## Billy_Bob (Oct 24, 2021)

Flopper said:


> Barring another highly infectious variate, Covid will move from epidemic to endemic within the next 12 to 18 months.  This means it will no longer be consider a pubic Heath emergency. There will still be pocket outbreaks to be treated. In many undeveloped  countries the epidemic will continue for years.


It is already endemic in most of the US.. Natural immunities are taking over. Vaccine mandates seek to remove your own natural ability to protect yourself.  Many scientists are warning that these mRNA vaccines are changing human DNA so that you can not defend yourself. One needs to ask why they did that? Population control is my "Bill Gates" answer.  if you can kill with impunity you can reduce earths populations.  Its a very scary thought if proven true..  IF this is proven true, we need to hold these tyrannical men/women to account.


----------



## Circe (Oct 24, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> It is already endemic in most of the US.. Natural immunities are taking over. Vaccine mandates seek to remove your own natural ability to protect yourself.  Many scientists are warning that these mRNA vaccines are changing human DNA so that you can not defend yourself. One needs to ask why they did that? Population control is my "Bill Gates" answer.  if you can kill with impunity you can reduce earths populations.  Its a very scary thought if proven true..  IF this is proven true, we need to hold these tyrannical men/women to account.


Maybe ---- that was my idea about why China MIGHT have done it on purpose. They are chronically overpopulated anyway, so it's an advantage, not a problem, for them. 

But Covid is disproportionately killing old people, and they don't reproduce, so I don't know about that as a motivation.

I'm wildly in favor of lowering the overpopulation problem, but not by killing people!! Foregoing births is the best way, surely.


----------



## Billy_Bob (Oct 24, 2021)

Circe said:


> But Covid is disproportionately killing old people, and they don't reproduce, so I don't know about that as a motivation.


Think about this from a command and control government that pays for everything stand point.  Older people generally are retired and no longer producing members of the group.  They are over head in a socialist government. they consume, they have medical problems... You want more money to do the things you want. How do you get it?  Reduce your overhead... COVID attacks this population with impunity.  IF you make it so they can not protect themselves naturally you can remove them as you see fit..  Drop a virus and sit back and watch..  and they never know your the cause so the populace never rebels.

I always look at things from the standpoint of my enemy to see what it is that drives them. Why do you think China made doctors and others who were sounding the alarm simply disappeared?


----------



## Flopper (Oct 24, 2021)

Independentthinker said:


> Exactly. I've been trying to explain this to the left for months now and they just don't get it. They are pre-programmed to believe, *vaccine stops virus*. The virus has been spreading because both the unvaccinated AND the vaccinated are spreading it. Therefore, vaccine mandates and passports are actually creating a false sense of security that as long as you are vaccinated you can go out in masse and do whatever the hell you want and the virus won't spread, because you're vaccinated when, in reality the vaccinated DO spread the virus. They seem to have no clue that this thing spreads as fast as it does because the asymptomatic are spreading it and that includes the vaccinated. They seem to have no clue that 100% of the vaccinated, if exposed to enough of the virus, would get and spread the virus and the left have made it so that breakthrough cases reported are only from those hospitalized or die while the vaccinated asymptomatic are not counted as breakthrough cases and are spreading the virus like wild fire. The left are perfectly fine with a football stadium filled with 80,000 only vaccinated people and that that will somehow be safe because, hey, they're vaccinated and, if cases rise shortly afterward, they'll just blame it all on the unvaccinated.


You're taking a grain of truth, the vaccinated *can* spread the virus and making the assumption that the vaccinated are significantly  responsible for the continuing epidemic.   What you are ignoring is only breakthrough cases can spread the virus and most of the vaccinated never have breakthrough cases.   And of those that  do, it is believe that as much as 80% are asymptomatic and  produce very small viral loads compared to those that are sick.

In short, people who are vaccinated against Covid-19 are less likely to spread the virus even if they become infected, a new study finds, adding to a growing body of evidence that vaccines can reduce transmission of the delta variant.  However, once the number vaccinated is large enough, whether the vaccinated are transmitting the virus is irrelevant because immunity will be high enough that the epidemic will subside.  I suspect we are close to that point now with new cases, deaths, and hospitalizations down for the last 4 weeks as the percent vaccinated continues to rise.

BTW, one study show that most of those that wore masks before being vaccinated are still wearing masks today.  In fact, the people that refuse to wear masks after vaccination are same ones that refuse to wear before being vaccinated.

What the data say about asymptomatic COVID infections


----------



## Independentthinker (Oct 24, 2021)

Flopper said:


> You're taking a grain of truth, the vaccinated *can* spread the virus and making the assumption that the vaccinated are significantly  responsible for the continuing epidemic.   What you are ignoring is only breakthrough cases can spread the virus and most of the vaccinated never have breakthrough cases.   And of those that  do, it is believe that as much as 80% are asymptomatic and  produce very small viral loads compared to those that are sick.
> 
> In short, people who are vaccinated against Covid-19 are less likely to spread the virus even if they become infected, a new study finds, adding to a growing body of evidence that vaccines can reduce transmission of the delta variant.  However, once the number vaccinated is large enough, whether the vaccinated are transmitting the virus is irrelevant because immunity will be high enough that the epidemic will subside.  I suspect we are close to that point now with new cases, deaths, and hospitalizations down for the last 4 weeks as the percent vaccinated continues to rise.
> 
> ...


The vaccinated ARE significantly responsible for the continued epidemic. They spread the virus and they are the ones allowed out. The unvaccinated are getting fired from their jobs and not allowed in places and the vaccinated are allowed in everywhere, spreading the virus. 100% of the vaccinated, if exposed to enough virus, WILL spread the virus. This is why the virus has surged, even in the most highly vaccinated places on the planet. In fact, an unvaccinated health care worker who gets tested weekly is much less likely to spread the virus than a vaccinated health care worker who doesn't get tested weekly.


----------



## Circe (Oct 24, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> Think about this from a command and control government that pays for everything stand point.  Older people generally are retired and no longer producing members of the group.  They are over head in a socialist government. they consume, they have medical problems... You want more money to do the things you want. How do you get it?  Reduce your overhead... COVID attacks this population with impunity.  IF you make it so they can not protect themselves naturally you can remove them as you see fit..  Drop a virus and sit back and watch..  and they never know your the cause so the populace never rebels.
> 
> I always look at things from the standpoint of my enemy to see what it is that drives them. Why do you think China made doctors and others who were sounding the alarm simply disappeared?


Yes, well, this point of view HAS occurred to me. I hope not; I hope we are just being paranoid. 

But China is in a better position vis-a-vis the rest of the world since plunging us into total confusion and economic recession, just saying.


----------



## Aletheia4u (Oct 24, 2021)




----------



## Flopper (Oct 24, 2021)

Independentthinker said:


> The vaccinated ARE significantly responsible for the continued epidemic. They spread the virus and they are the ones allowed out. The unvaccinated are getting fired from their jobs and not allowed in places and the vaccinated are allowed in everywhere, spreading the virus. 100% of the vaccinated, if exposed to enough virus, WILL spread the virus. This is why the virus has surged, even in the most highly vaccinated places on the planet. In fact, an unvaccinated health care worker who gets tested weekly is much less likely to spread the virus than a vaccinated health care worker who doesn't get tested weekly.


You statement that the vaccinated are responsible for the continued epidemic is so ridiculous, it does not deserve a reply.


----------



## Flopper (Oct 25, 2021)

Circe said:


> Yes, well, this point of view HAS occurred to me. I hope not; I hope we are just being paranoid.
> 
> But China is in a better position vis-a-vis the rest of the world since plunging us into total confusion and economic recession, just saying.


China's very aggressive measures which began in Jan 2020 are responsible for their success such as:

Both government and the public support for measures to stop the virus has been strong with few protests over government mandates.
Over half million people dedicated to contact tracing and quarantining.
Sealing off cities, villages, and buildings where covid was was found
Mandatory vaccinations in all major manufacturing plants, major housing projects, the military, all government workers with no exceptions.
Mandatory Covid testing in the workplace and all large gathering
Mask requirements everywhere except in the home.
Some of the toughest travel restrictions both international and within the country.
Violation of any covid healthcare mandates can be considered a crime against the people and handled as such.


----------



## SweetSue92 (Oct 25, 2021)

Flopper said:


> You statement that the vaccinated are responsible for the continued epidemic is so ridiculous, it does not deserve a reply.



Oh yes. Believe it. From the UK, where such things are reported honestly. Page 13. The vaccinated are getting infections more than the unvaxxed and therefore, you can bet, spreading more freely. 



			https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1027511/Vaccine-surveillance-report-week-42.pdf


----------



## Rogue AI (Oct 25, 2021)

Flopper said:


> China's very aggressive measures which began in Jan 2020 are responsible for their success such as:
> 
> Both government and the public support for measures to stop the virus has been strong with few protests over government mandates.
> Over half million people dedicated to contact tracing and quarantining.
> ...


What China says and what's really happening are two separate things. They have harsh measures, but what numbers they present are hardly credible.


----------



## colfax_m (Oct 25, 2021)

SweetSue92 said:


> Oh yes. Believe it. From the UK, where such things are reported honestly. Page 13. The vaccinated are getting infections more than the unvaxxed and therefore, you can bet, spreading more freely.
> 
> 
> 
> https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1027511/Vaccine-surveillance-report-week-42.pdf


I guess you didn’t read page 6 where it says the opposite.


----------



## JohnDB (Oct 25, 2021)

Flopper said:


> This is anecdotal evidence. Maybe it's true or maybe it isn't or maybe you are just exceptional or just plain lucky.  I will go with scientific evidence that vaccine do work at saving lives and preventing serious illness.
> 
> The problem with relying on natural immunity is that it's not very reliable.   In a study at Vanderbilt University Medical Center in Nashville, Tennessee, researchers found that 58 percent of those who tested positive for SARS-CoV-2 antibodies in April tested negative only two months later. Their antibody levels dropped so precipitously, they were no longer detectable. Even the 42 percent of personnel whose antibody levels remained above threshold still experienced a significant decline.  In a study done at MIT of students who tested positive for Covid-19, a year later 20% had no detected antibodies at all, 35% had antibodies but not enough to have a strong immunity and the remaining 45% had a level believed to be high enough to provide at some immunity to the virus.
> 
> ...


The study at Vanderbilt isn't finished yet...those are preliminary results at best.  
It can be better or worse. The pool of patients and samples are growing still.  

Not that I really disagree with the results...I know several people who have had it more than once.  And how younger and younger people are going to the hospital because of coronavirus infections...of course they are unvaccinated... either because they are politically driven or lax about getting vaccinated.   It's not 50-somrthing year old vaccinated women filling the ICUs...it's unvaccinated people of all ages.


----------



## EvMetro (Oct 25, 2021)

Flopper said:


> According all documents I have read


This is the reason why there is such a political divide in covid culture.  There is a broad range of news, data, and information about mask. Covid, and vaccines, but most people limit their consumption of this to just the part of the broad range that supports what they want to hear or know.  Unless you switch to objectively searching for the truth instead of subjectively searching for what you want the truth to be, you will never find anything but what you WANT the truth to be.


----------



## SweetSue92 (Oct 25, 2021)

colfax_m said:


> I guess you didn’t read page 6 where it says the opposite.



They can cite studies going back to the early days of the vaccines all they like. The current data says otherwise.


----------



## colfax_m (Oct 25, 2021)

SweetSue92 said:


> They can cite studies going back to the early days of the vaccines all they like. The current data says otherwise.


The current data is unfiltered. Making conclusions based on the raw data is not good science. There's so many variables you aren't taking into account.

The studies they cite were rigorous and controlled. That's why their conclusions are more valid than your assertion.


----------



## SweetSue92 (Oct 25, 2021)

colfax_m said:


> I guess you didn’t read page 6 where it says the opposite.



One such study CONCLUDED on March 3, 2021. Right, when vaccines were at their most effective. As I said, this is obvious. As it is obvious that these "vaccines" are not so much.

No vaccines that I have ever encountered are basically useless after, say, 9 months.

Here: Effect of vaccination on transmission of COVID-19: an observational study in healthcare workers and their households


----------



## colfax_m (Oct 25, 2021)

SweetSue92 said:


> One such study CONCLUDED on March 3, 2021. Right, when vaccines were at their most effective. As I said, this is obvious. As it is obvious that these "vaccines" are not so much.
> 
> No vaccines that I have ever encountered are basically useless after, say, 9 months.
> 
> Here: ‘Effect of vaccination on transmission of COVID-19: an observational study in healthcare workers and their households.’


As if there were no more up to date studies.









						COVID-19 Vaccines Prevent Delta Transmission, Yet Another Study Shows
					

Yet another study has found that the authorized COVID-19 vaccines greatly reduce infection. Let's take a look at this latest paper in the context provided by previously published research on vaccine efficacy.




					www.acsh.org
				




But I welcome you producing a study which shows that the vaccine is "useless" after 9 months.


----------



## SweetSue92 (Oct 25, 2021)

colfax_m said:


> As if there were no more up to date studies.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That study ended July 4th, and so the vast majority of the data was collected well before that--before Delta. So no. I'm guessing you know this.

I don't understand why people fight this battle. "Boosters" are already rolled out. That's an admission that yeah, the vaccines do not work all that well. Why are you still fighting a losing battle? I don't get it.


----------



## colfax_m (Oct 25, 2021)

SweetSue92 said:


> That study ended July 4th, and so the vast majority of the data was collected well before that--before Delta. So no. I'm guessing you know this.
> 
> I don't understand why people fight this battle. "Boosters" are already rolled out. That's an admission that yeah, the vaccines do not work all that well. Why are you still fighting a losing battle? I don't get it.


It's an admission that efficacy wanes, but saying their "worthless" is ridiculous. Vaccines work a LOT better than nothing. That much is 100% clear.

I'm still interested in seeing a study supporting your assertion. So far we haven't seen anything.


----------



## SweetSue92 (Oct 25, 2021)

colfax_m said:


> It's an admission that efficacy wanes, but saying their "worthless" is ridiculous. Vaccines work a LOT better than nothing. That much is 100% clear.
> 
> I'm still interested in seeing a study supporting your assertion. So far we haven't seen anything.



Red herring. Don't need a "study". It's in the data. It's in the fact that there are "boosters". The end. 

And you're right, for a lot of people the vaccines are beyond worthless. They have ruined lives with debilitating side effects.


----------



## colfax_m (Oct 25, 2021)

SweetSue92 said:


> Red herring. Don't need a "study". It's in the data. It's in the fact that there are "boosters". The end.
> 
> And you're right, for a lot of people the vaccines are beyond worthless. They have ruined lives with debilitating side effects.


You do need a study. How else are you going to account for observation bias? What about identifying the number at risk? What about other confounders like behavioral differences? Differences in underlying health risk factors?

If vaccines are so worthless why isn’t the UK seeing a massive surge in deaths associated with the delta variant?


----------



## SweetSue92 (Oct 25, 2021)

colfax_m said:


> You do need a study. How else are you going to account for observation bias? What about identifying the number at risk? What about other confounders like behavioral differences? Differences in underlying health risk factors?
> 
> If vaccines are so worthless why isn’t the UK seeing a massive surge in deaths associated with the delta variant?



We are in a Moral Panic, so the real testing, study and data on vaccine harms are being hidden away. So yes, while the vaccines have a short window of preventing deaths of some people, they are doing harm to many people as well.

That information is being suppressed.

For now.


----------



## colfax_m (Oct 25, 2021)

SweetSue92 said:


> We are in a Moral Panic, so the real testing, study and data on vaccine harms are being hidden away. So yes, while the vaccines have a short window of preventing deaths of some people, they are doing harm to many people as well.
> 
> That information is being suppressed.
> 
> For now.


If it truly were a short window that vaccines saved lives, wouldn’t you expect to see a massive surge of deaths in the UK already?

Is that happening?


----------



## SweetSue92 (Oct 25, 2021)

colfax_m said:


> If it truly were a short window that vaccines saved lives, wouldn’t you expect to see a massive surge of deaths in the UK already?
> 
> Is that happening?



All cause deaths are up there. Here as well.

Totally incurious about that, of course.


----------



## colfax_m (Oct 25, 2021)

SweetSue92 said:


> All cause deaths are up there. Here as well.
> 
> Totally incurious about that, of course.


I look forward to a paper investigating all cause mortality. 

But back to the original question, are COVID deaths spiking to pre-vaccine levels as one would expect based on your assertion?


----------



## Independentthinker (Oct 25, 2021)

Flopper said:


> You statement that the vaccinated are responsible for the continued epidemic is so ridiculous, it does not deserve a reply.


Several countries with the highest vaccination rates are experiencing surges. Think about it man. It is the vaccinated spreading the virus much more than the unvaccinated, particularly when the unvaccinated aren't even out as much because they aren't allowed in places and are getting fired from their jobs. Who spreads the virus more, a group of 25 unvaccinated persons congregating together or a group of 80,000 fully vaccinated attending a football game where the unvaccinated aren't allowed in? Who spreads the virus more, unvaccinated health care workers who get tested weekly or vaccinated health care workers who don't do weekly tests?


----------



## JohnDB (Oct 25, 2021)

The UK invested a lot of money in it's AstraZeneca Oxford vaccine...

Despite the numerous warnings about the formula they used, they went forward and made a standard formula vaccine. Then their paperwork and administration of the testing was so convoluted it didn't get past the FDA. Meanwhile the mRNA vaccines have had astounding success with great numbers even though the protection wanes. 
So....of course Page Six is going to run contrary articles...but it's on Page Six... meaning that you know it's a dubious story.


----------



## Billy_Bob (Oct 25, 2021)

Flopper said:


> You statement that the vaccinated are responsible for the continued epidemic is so ridiculous, it does not deserve a reply.


His statement is factually correct. 

Because the human immune system operates on the "mass" to trigger a response, the spike proteins are not large enough to trigger one early on.  The viral load becomes massive and those persons become infective to others. Once there is enough mass of the spike proteins and a response is generated, it kills the infection.  The human body never learns the virus so the next time it encounters it, once again, we have massive spread.  Once these "fooled into making" antibodies are gone so are your protections.


----------



## Bob Blaylock (Oct 25, 2021)

colfax_m said:


> The current data is unfiltered. Making conclusions based on the raw data is not good science.



  Right.

  You need to filter the data, first, to emphasize that which supports the preconceived conclusion that you a re trying to support.

  That's a major part of how left *wrong* wing _“science”_ works.


----------



## Bob Blaylock (Oct 25, 2021)

colfax_m said:


> If it truly were a short window that vaccines saved lives, wouldn’t you expect to see a massive surge of deaths in the UK already?



  A disease with a 99.7%+ recovery rate is not going to produce any _“massive surge of deaths”_, no matter what you do or do not do about it; unless what you do about it, itself ends up causing more deaths that the disease itself.  Which, in fact, we have been seeing.


----------



## colfax_m (Oct 25, 2021)

Bob Blaylock said:


> Right.
> 
> You need to filter the data, first, to emphasize that which supports the preconceived conclusion that you a re trying to support.
> 
> That's a major part of how left *wrong* wing _“science”_ works.


Adjusting data is always a major part of how science works especially when you’re going off retrospective data. 

Otherwise you’d be putting yourself at risk of missing confounders.


----------



## colfax_m (Oct 25, 2021)

Bob Blaylock said:


> A disease with a 99.7%+ recovery rate is not going to produce any _“massive surge of deaths”_, no matter what you do or do not do about it; unless what you do about it, itself ends up causing more deaths that the disease itself.  Which, in fact, we have been seeing.


Deaths in the UK haven’t come anywhere close to the levels they were last winter.


----------



## Circe (Oct 25, 2021)

colfax_m said:


> It's an admission that efficacy wanes, but saying their "worthless" is ridiculous. Vaccines work a LOT better than nothing. That much is 100% clear.


No, it isn't. That is one of the many things that is very, very UNCLEAR. 

Boy, the medical industry sure screwed this up big time. I suppose the basic problem is that they weren't given the usual 20 years to develop a vaccine. Not that they always can even so: HIV still doesn't have anything at all after 40 years, and it's an mRNA virus like Covid. Looking back, that fact was a bad sign.

Hubris. They didn't know what they couldn't do. They thought they were Magic Men, could do Anything and be Superheroes.

Not so much.


----------



## colfax_m (Oct 25, 2021)

Circe said:


> No, it isn't. That is one of the many things that is very, very UNCLEAR.


How many studies do you need demonstrating that vaccines are beneficial? At the very least they’re clearly beneficial in reducing likelihood of severe COVID and death.


----------



## Bob Blaylock (Oct 25, 2021)

colfax_m said:


> Adjusting data is always a major part of how science works especially when you’re going off retrospective data.



  That may be how *LI*bt*AR*d _“science”_ works.  The same _“science”_ that asserts that Bruce Jenner is a woman.

  In genuine science, what you call _“adjusting data”_, real scientists call *fraud*.


----------



## colfax_m (Oct 25, 2021)

Bob Blaylock said:


> That may be how *LI*bt*AR*d _“science”_ works.  The same _“science”_ that asserts that Bruce Jenner is a woman.
> 
> In genuine science, what you call _“adjusting data”_, real scientists call *fraud*.


Uh, no. That’s how all science works.


----------



## Circe (Oct 25, 2021)

colfax_m said:


> How many studies do you need demonstrating that vaccines are beneficial? At the very least they’re clearly beneficial in reducing likelihood of severe COVID and death.


You sure??? They swore it was total prevention and you'd never catch Covid, they swore it protected others, they swore the shots would stop it and we could go back to normal, they swore masks would protect the wearer, others, etc. ---- not a single thing was ever correct, all turned out to be lies.

Now they are saying the vaccines keep anyone and everyone from getting so sick they need to be hospitalized, and that would be nice! But since many celebrities -- fully vaccinated -- have ended up in well-publicized hospital stays, I think we'd be pretty silly to believe a word these fraudsters say. They are just trying to justify their intense propaganda campaign, which makes the medical industry a LOT of money. 

If people lie and lie and lie and lie, how long are you willing to keep believing each new iteration of another lie? I myself have reached my limit some time ago; apparently you are willing to go on believing them indefinitely. I bet you buy a lot of insurance policies and overpriced new cars.


----------



## colfax_m (Oct 25, 2021)

Circe said:


> They swore it was total prevention and you'd never catch Covid


Who is “they”?


----------



## Circe (Oct 25, 2021)

colfax_m said:


> Who is “they”?


The self-described elites who think they know everything.


----------



## colfax_m (Oct 25, 2021)

Circe said:


> The self-described elites who think they know everything.


Do you have any examples of this?


----------



## Circe (Oct 25, 2021)

colfax_m said:


> Do you have any examples of this?


Sure --- you're one of them, right?


----------



## colfax_m (Oct 25, 2021)

Circe said:


> Sure --- you're one of them, right?


Nope. 

There’s a problem with language. People hear what they want to hear. I say the vaccine prevents infection, some people assume that means it prevents every infection. It does prevent many infections. That’s what I mean. That’s how we’ve always used the word.


----------



## Circe (Oct 25, 2021)

colfax_m said:


> Nope.
> 
> There’s a problem with language. People hear what they want to hear. I say the vaccine prevents infection, some people assume that means it prevents every infection. It does prevent many infections. That’s what I mean. That’s how we’ve always used the word.


Naaaaaaah, "vaccine" used to mean something good, reliable ---- _you won't get smallpox ever, ever.  _Now it's just one fallback position after another as nothing they advertise proves true.


----------



## Flopper (Oct 25, 2021)

Rogue AI said:


> What China says and what's really happening are two separate things. They have harsh measures, but what numbers they present are hardly credible. There is no doubt that they doing more than any other nation.  They are successful.  How successfully, there is no way of knowing.  They are vaccinating more than 20 million a day.


----------



## Flopper (Oct 25, 2021)

SweetSue92 said:


> One such study CONCLUDED on March 3, 2021. Right, when vaccines were at their most effective. As I said, this is obvious. As it is obvious that these "vaccines" are not so much.
> 
> No vaccines that I have ever encountered are basically useless after, say, 9 months.
> 
> Here: Effect of vaccination on transmission of COVID-19: an observational study in healthcare workers and their households


The Flu vaccine works for about 4 months and then falls off.  At best Flu vaccines are no more than 60% effective.  This is why so many people were so excited when the mRNA vaccine clinical trials showed they were both over 94% effective at preventing serious illness and hospitalization.   At 4 moths both were still near 90% at preventing serious illness and hospitalization.  The concern is that we are having more breakthrough minor infections while protection against serious infections remains about the same.  When this happens, the effeteness at preventing more serious infections starts falling off.   This why the FDA is finally getting off their but and acting to approve more boosters and vaccinations for kids.


----------



## Bob Blaylock (Oct 25, 2021)

Flopper said:


> The Flu vaccine works for about 4 months and then falls off.  At best Flu vaccines are no more than 60% effective.  This is why so many people were so excited when the mRNA vaccine clinical trials showed they were both over 94% effective at preventing serious illness and hospitalization.   At 4 moths [sic] both were still near 90% at preventing serious illness and hospitalization.  The concern is that we are having more breakthrough minor infections while protection against serious infections remains about the same.  When this happens, the effeteness [sic] at preventing more serious infections starts falling off.   This why the FDA is finally getting off their but and acting to approve more boosters and vaccinations for kids.


----------



## Flopper (Oct 25, 2021)

Independentthinker said:


> Several countries with the highest vaccination rates are experiencing surges. Think about it man. It is the vaccinated spreading the virus much more than the unvaccinated, particularly when the unvaccinated aren't even out as much because they aren't allowed in places and are getting fired from their jobs. Who spreads the virus more, a group of 25 unvaccinated persons congregating together or a group of 80,000 fully vaccinated attending a football game where the unvaccinated aren't allowed in? Who spreads the virus more, unvaccinated health care workers who get tested weekly or vaccinated health care workers who don't do weekly tests?


That might make sense if the only factor involved was the percent vaccinated. Vaccination rates have been increasing but unfortunately so has the delta variant which is far more infections than previous strands.  The proof that vaccinations work can be seen by looking at the following graphs.  Both new cases and deaths of the alpha variant rose rapidly last Fall peaking about January and February when the vaccines first became available to the general public.  New cases and deaths fell rapidly as the vaccination numbers rose reaching a lowest point in epidemic in July as the Delta Variant began spreading across the country. Both cases and deaths along with the new vaccinations rose till October.  

In short the peaks in deaths and new cases and lows in deaths and new cases rose prior to vaccine introduction.  After the vaccine was introduced the peaks and lows fell interrupted only by the Delta variant reaching a low in July and peaking in Sept.  If the increasing number of vaccinations continues through the fall we are likely to see an all time low in both deaths and new cases before the Spring.


----------



## ClaireH (Oct 25, 2021)

Flopper said:


> This is anecdotal evidence. Maybe it's true or maybe it isn't or maybe you are just exceptional or just plain lucky.  I will go with scientific evidence that vaccine do work at saving lives and preventing serious illness.
> 
> The problem with relying on natural immunity is that it's not very reliable.   In a study at Vanderbilt University Medical Center in Nashville, Tennessee, researchers found that 58 percent of those who tested positive for SARS-CoV-2 antibodies in April tested negative only two months later. Their antibody levels dropped so precipitously, they were no longer detectable. Even the 42 percent of personnel whose antibody levels remained above threshold still experienced a significant decline.  In a study done at MIT of students who tested positive for Covid-19, a year later 20% had no detected antibodies at all, 35% had antibodies but not enough to have a strong immunity and the remaining 45% had a level believed to be high enough to provide at some immunity to the virus.
> 
> ...


From your post: “The problem with relying on natural immunity is that it's not very reliable.” Inaccurate information.

The following sources state otherwise, with consensus that natural immunity following viral infection is superior to the short length of time 2-3 months effective antibodies. BTW- these sources support the use of the 3 current concoctions (marketed by amateurs, literally, considering this is the first vaccine they’ve ever produced)  so the claim these are “anti-vax sources” would also be inaccurate. NIH really set itself up by financing Moderna’s rushed product and testing, a bit hard to retract now.

“Natural infection triggered antibodies that continued to grow in potency and their breadth against variants for a year after infection, whereas most of those elicited by vaccination seemed to stop changing in the weeks after a second dose. Memory B cells that evolved after infection were also more likely than those from vaccination to make antibodies that block immune-evading variants such as Beta and Delta.”









						COVID super-immunity: one of the pandemic’s great puzzles
					

People who have previously recovered from COVID-19 have a stronger immune response after being vaccinated than those who have never been infected. Scientists are trying to find out why.




					www.nature.com
				




That year out time reference for effective antibodies following natural infection? That’s doubled following recent studies with detection of antibodies with time continuing to play out.

“Nussenzweig’s group has published data showing people who recover from a SARS-CoV-2 infection continue to develop increasing numbers and types of coronavirus-targeting antibodies for up to 1 year. By contrast, he says, twice-vaccinated people stop seeing increases “in the potency or breadth of the overall memory antibody compartment” a few months after their second dose”.





__





						Science | AAAS
					






					www.science.org


----------



## Flopper (Oct 25, 2021)

ClaireH said:


> From your post: “The problem with relying on natural immunity is that it's not very reliable.” Inaccurate information.
> 
> The following sources state otherwise, with consensus that natural immunity following viral infection is superior to the short length of time 2-3 months effective antibodies. BTW- these sources support the use of the 3 current concoctions (marketed by amateurs, literally, considering this is the first vaccine they’ve ever produced)  so the claim these are “anti-vax sources” would also be inaccurate. NIH really set itself up by financing Moderna’s rushed product and testing, a bit hard to retract now.
> 
> ...


This is from the Israel study which has not been peer reviewed.  This study focused on the serious cases, those hospitalized. It did not look at the less serious cases and those that were asymptomatic which make up over 95% of the cases.  Before the study we knew that people with mild cases had much weaker immune response than those with more serious cases.   Going into the hospital with a serious case of Covid is a heavy price pay for a strong long lasting immunity.  The report even mentioned this.

There is a real danger in misinterpreting the results.  Many people that hear about this study and had a positive tests that was asymptomatic or only had mild symptoms may draw the conclusion that they have a strong long lasting immunity, better than the vaccines even thou there are large number of reinfections among mild and asymptomatic cases.

The value of the study is that it raises the question as to how the body produces such a strong long lasting immunity after a serious infection of corvid when other similar diseases do not.


----------



## ClaireH (Oct 25, 2021)

Flopper said:


> This is from the Israel study which has not been peer reviewed.  This study focused on the serious cases, those hospitalized. It did not look at the less serious cases and those that were asymptomatic which make up over 95% of the cases.  Before the study we new that people with mild cases had much weaker immune response than those with serious cases.   Going into the hospital with a serious case of Covid is a heavy price pay for a strong long lasting immunity.  The report even mentioned this.


High-risk groups include known specific comorbitities. All people should make an informed decision to determine about relying on their immune system. Considering the survival rate is 98.4% or greater, depending on which source you read, high-risk groups should be a separate category to show two different stats for the sake of accuracy. I have yet to see any studies but if you have please share . Since the overall survival rate does not separate healthy individuals from individuals with pre-existing conditions (obesity and asthma top two groups) I wonder what the survival rate is for a healthy person without risk factor?

Peer review is an interesting concept. We have a subset of articles in print that are authored by an owner of media outlet. One top US medical journal (I’ve linked this previously)decided to add an additional layer of screening PRIOR to being released for preprint/peer review. Teams of of researchers interviewed lost 18 months of hard work due to their results being blocked. I understand the value of peer review, but it’s far from being a level playing field for all SARS2 (the more logical name for it) research. If it doesn’t fit the narrative…

My point is that natural immunity following infection lasts longer than the current concoctions that are available.


----------



## EvMetro (Oct 26, 2021)

Bob Blaylock said:


> That may be how *LI*bt*AR*d _“science”_ works.  The same _“science”_ that asserts that Bruce Jenner is a woman.
> 
> In genuine science, what you call _“adjusting data”_, real scientists call *fraud*.


*"Science* *can* *flourish* *only* *in* *an* *atmosphere* *of* *free* *speech*."
-Albert Einstein

The problem with lefty science is that it does not take Einstein's words seriously.   Flopper and colfax_m want to cite studies, but they do not take into account the circumstances of the studies.  Studies that come up with results that are in conflict to covid narratives are canceled, censored, deplatformed, and forbidden.  Money for studies that won't support the official political narrative is not available, and those who conduct studies that may be in conflict face getting fired.  All of this is in conflict with the basic scientific model that requires scientists to establish doubt.  Studies that survive censorship, deplatforming, and political filtering can not be taken seriously.


----------



## colfax_m (Oct 26, 2021)

EvMetro said:


> *"Science* *can* *flourish* *only* *in* *an* *atmosphere* *of* *free* *speech*."
> -Albert Einstein
> 
> The problem with lefty science is that it does not take Einstein's words seriously.   Flopper and colfax_m want to cite studies, but they do not take into account the circumstances of the studies.  Studies that come up with results that are in conflict to covid narratives are canceled, censored, deplatformed, and forbidden.  Money for studies that won't support the official political narrative is not available, and those who conduct studies that may be in conflict face getting fired.  All of this is in conflict with the basic scientific model that requires scientists to establish doubt.  Studies that survive censorship, deplatforming, and political filtering can not be taken seriously.


This is the fantasy story you’ve created to justify your world view. It’s not based on real world knowledge.


----------



## Independentthinker (Oct 26, 2021)

Flopper said:


> That might make sense if the only factor involved was the percent vaccinated. Vaccination rates have been increasing but unfortunately so has the delta variant which is far more infections than previous strands.  The proof that vaccinations work can be seen by looking at the following graphs.  Both new cases and deaths of the alpha variant rose rapidly last Fall peaking about January and February when the vaccines first became available to the general public.  New cases and deaths fell rapidly as the vaccination numbers rose reaching a lowest point in epidemic in July as the Delta Variant began spreading across the country. Both cases and deaths along with the new vaccinations rose till October.
> 
> In short the peaks in deaths and new cases and lows in deaths and new cases rose prior to vaccine introduction.  After the vaccine was introduced the peaks and lows fell interrupted only by the Delta variant reaching a low in July and peaking in Sept.  If the increasing number of vaccinations continues through the fall we are likely to see an all time low in both deaths and new cases before the Spring.
> 
> ...


Instead of posting all of those fancy graphs you could have just agreed with me that the vaccines do very little to nothing in stopping the spread of the Delta variant, which is why in the most highly vaccinated countries, Delta cases are surging. 100% of those vaccinated, if exposed to enough of the Delta variant, will spread the virus and the virus is so prolific that it spreads during the time people are asymptomatic. So, trying to claim that in the vaccinated it only spreads for a few days instead of 10-14 for the unvaccinated is very misleading because everyone is spreading it in the first few days and most aren't spreading it after those few days because the sick are sick and staying in. This is why temperature checks were pretty useless in stopping the spread, because once you began feeling sick you weren't going to work, school, out in the public, etc. to have a temp check flag you.


----------



## colfax_m (Oct 26, 2021)

Circe said:


> Naaaaaaah, "vaccine" used to mean something good, reliable ---- _you won't get smallpox ever, ever.  _Now it's just one fallback position after another as nothing they advertise proves true.


Still wondering if you can point to any examples of people claiming no one will ever get infected with COVID after vaccination. 

It seems it’s your belief, not anyone else’s.


----------



## Circe (Oct 26, 2021)

colfax_m said:


> Still wondering if you can point to any examples of people claiming no one will ever get infected with COVID after vaccination.
> 
> It seems it’s your belief, not anyone else’s.


Sure they did. Everyone knows this and so do you: it was only last year! What, are you pretending you forgot? Because "vaccine" had a great reputation because of the past successes that are no longer operational, apparently. So they could fool us all by claiming we just hadto-hadto-hadto all get vaccinated and be saved, saved -------- turned out the stuff was no good, though.


----------



## colfax_m (Oct 26, 2021)

Circe said:


> Sure they did. Everyone knows this and so do you: it was only last year! What, are you pretending you forgot? Because "vaccine" had a great reputation because of the past successes that are no longer operational, apparently. So they could fool us all by claiming we just hadto-hadto-hadto all get vaccinated and be saved, saved -------- turned out the stuff was no good, though.


I find it hard to believe that the only substantiation of this allegation is your memory of it. 

For example, this is Fauci tempering expectations of the vaccine. 









						Dr. Anthony Fauci says chance of coronavirus vaccine being highly effective is 'not great'
					

Scientists are hoping for a coronavirus vaccine that is at least 75% effective, but 50% or 60% effective would be acceptable, too, Dr. Anthony Fauci said.




					www.cnbc.com


----------



## Flopper (Oct 27, 2021)

ClaireH said:


> High-risk groups include known specific comorbitities. All people should make an informed decision to determine about relying on their immune system. Considering the survival rate is 98.4% or greater, depending on which source you read, high-risk groups should be a separate category to show two different stats for the sake of accuracy. I have yet to see any studies but if you have please share . Since the overall survival rate does not separate healthy individuals from individuals with pre-existing conditions (obesity and asthma top two groups) I wonder what the survival rate is for a healthy person without risk factor?
> 
> Peer review is an interesting concept. We have a subset of articles in print that are authored by an owner of media outlet. One top US medical journal (I’ve linked this previously)decided to add an additional layer of screening PRIOR to being released for preprint/peer review. Teams of of researchers interviewed lost 18 months of hard work due to their results being blocked. I understand the value of peer review, but it’s far from being a level playing field for all SARS2 (the more logical name for it) research. If it doesn’t fit the narrative…
> 
> My point is that natural immunity following infection lasts longer than the current concoctions that are available.


The Israel research study confirmed your last statement with one caveat.  Most of those acquiring such long high quality immunity got it by being seriously ill which are less than 5% of  Corvid cases.  Mortality rates for the seriously ill in hospitals runs 7% to 16%.  70% of of those that survive call the disease the worst sickness they have every had.  As the study points out, getting that immunity can come at a high cost.


----------



## ClaireH (Oct 27, 2021)

Flopper said:


> The Israel research study confirmed your last statement with one caveat.  Most of those acquiring such long high quality immunity got it by being seriously ill which are less than 5% of  Corvid cases.  Mortality rates for the seriously ill in hospitals runs 7% to 16%.  70% of of those that survive call the disease the worst sickness they have every had.  As the study points out, getting that immunity can come at a high cost.


No worries Flopper! Help is on the way- what is out now will soon be replaced (and dumped most likely) by a vaccine providing potentially 17 years immunity as with flu viruses targeted T cells versus memory B cells. Quite the jump from the current “offer”for 3 months reduced chance of severity. Agree?






						T cell-oriented strategies for controlling the COVID-19 pandemic - Nature Reviews Immunology
					

This Comment article proposes that T cell-oriented vaccine strategies should be considered to control the COVID-19 pandemic in the longer term, given declining levels of neutralizing antibodies with time after vaccination or infection and the emergence of viral escape variants.




					www.nature.com


----------



## Flopper (Oct 27, 2021)

colfax_m said:


> Still wondering if you can point to any examples of people claiming no one will ever get infected with COVID after vaccination.
> 
> It seems it’s your belief, not anyone else’s.


You must get infected for the body to issue an immune response with or without a vaccination.  The vaccines can not stop the virus from entering the body and attacking cells.  However, once the virus initially breaks into cells and thus begins an infection, the immune system begins to build a defense.  Those that been vaccinated or have had a significant covid infection will have a strong immune response within hours.   For those that don't, it will takes days or even a week or more before the immune system can mount a strong response to the virus.  By that time the virus will have replicated many times.

Anyone who says vaccines don't work because they don't prevent an infection is showing their ignorance because the initial presence of infection is needed to start an immune response.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 27, 2021)

KissMy said:


> My unvaccinated friends have been re-infected. One is 28yrs old already caught it 3 times. The unvaccinated are the ones clogging hospitals, not the vaccinated.



You misunderstand what immunity means.
It does not mean you can't or don't get infected.
What immunity means is that you recover quickly and do not die.

Those with recovery immunity are doing the best.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 27, 2021)

Flopper said:


> You must get infected for the body to issue an immune response with or without a vaccination.  The vaccines can not stop the virus from entering the body and attacking cells.  However, once the virus initially breaks into cells and thus begins an infection, the immune system begins to build a defense.  Those that been vaccinated or have had a significant covid infection will have a strong immune response within hours.   For those that don't, it will takes days or even a week or more before the immune system can mount a strong response to the virus.  By that time the virus will have replicated many times.
> 
> Anyone who says vaccines don't work because they don't prevent an infection is showing their ignorance because the initial presence of infection is needed to start an immune response.



The problem with the vaccine appears to be that by not including a virus in the vaccine, the immune system reaction is to only produce antibodies, but not to record the immune response in T-cell memory, so there is nothing after 3 months.
The mRNA vaccines are only producing a temporary immune response.
The mRNA vaccines are not creating any lasting immunity.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 27, 2021)

colfax_m said:


> This is the fantasy story you’ve created to justify your world view. It’s not based on real world knowledge.



Wrong.
They said the efficiency of the mRNA injections at first was 90%
The a month later they said it was 60%.
Then after another month, the story was 30%.
So then clearly the vaccine immunity only lasts 3 months, which is how long the initial antibodies live.
Which then means the mRNA synthetic vaccines do not work and do not program long term immunity memory in T-cells.


----------



## Flopper (Oct 27, 2021)

ClaireH said:


> No worries Flopper! Help is on the way- what is out now will soon be replaced (and dumped most likely) by a vaccine providing potentially 17 years immunity as with flu viruses targeted T cells versus memory B cells. Quite the jump from the current “offer”for 3 months reduced chance of severity. Agree?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There is no doubt that mRNA vaccines will improve with time.  

FYI, mRNA vaccines (Pfizer and Moderna) last longer than 4 months.  At 5 months they are still very effective at preventing serious illness.  Since we are still in an epidemic, it makes sense to boost their strength before their effectiveness falls significantly.  As I'm sure you are aware, it takes time to vaccinate the public so you have to start giving boosters at the first sign that they are weakening.  I think we will find that the mRNA vaccines will be effective many months from now. That's why boosters are not for everyone, just older folks, those with compromised immune systems, and those that took the Johnson and Johnson.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 27, 2021)

Flopper said:


> The Israel research study confirmed your last statement with one caveat.  Most of those acquiring such long high quality immunity got it by being seriously ill which are less than 5% of  Corvid cases.  Mortality rates for the seriously ill in hospitals runs 7% to 16%.  70% of of those that survive call the disease the worst sickness they have every had.  As the study points out, getting that immunity can come at a high cost.



Not true.
Studies have shown that those who did were asymptomatic already had very good immunity and even those who got infected but did not get seriously ill resulted in full immune response for the future.









						Lasting immunity found after recovery from COVID-19
					

The immune systems of more than 95% of people who recovered from COVID-19 had durable memories of the virus up to eight months after infection.




					www.nih.gov
				




{...
Virus-specific B cells increased over time. People had more memory B cells six months after symptom onset than at one month afterwards. Although the number of these cells appeared to reach a plateau after a few months, levels didn’t decline over the period studied.

Levels of T cells for the virus also remained high after infection. Six months after symptom onset, 92% of participants had CD4+ T cells that recognized the virus. These cells help coordinate the immune response. About half the participants had CD8+ T cells, which kill cells that are infected by the virus.

As with antibodies, the numbers of different immune cell types varied substantially between individuals. Neither gender nor differences in disease severity could account for this variability. However, 95% of the people had at least 3 out of 5 immune-system components that could recognize SARS-CoV-2 up to 8 months after infection.

“Several months ago, our studies showed that natural infection induced a strong response, and this study now shows that the responses last,” Weiskopf says. “We are hopeful that a similar pattern of responses lasting over time will also emerge for the vaccine-induced responses.”

—by Sharon Reynolds
...}


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 27, 2021)

Flopper said:


> There is no doubt that mRNA vaccines will improve with time.
> 
> FYI, mRNA vaccines (Pfizer and Moderna) last longer than 4 months.  At 5 months they are still very effective at preventing serious illness.  Since we are still in an epidemic, it makes sense to boost their strength before their effectiveness falls significantly.  As I'm sure you are aware, it takes time to vaccinate the public so you have to start giving boosters at the first sign that they are weakening.  I think we will find that the mRNA vaccines will be effective many months from now. That's why boosters are not for everyone, just older folks, those with compromised immune systems, and those that took the Johnson and Johnson.



Unlikely the mRNA vaccines will ever work because it is a flawed idea.
There is on way the immune system can differentiate in its long term memory between different pathogens if there is no pathogen like in the mRNA vaccines.
The CDC claims the mRNA vaccines enter your own cells, programming them to grow spike proteins.
Well you can't just tell your immune system to trigger on any and all spike proteins, because your own exosomes also used the same spike proteins.
So then what are the T-cells supposed to remember to trigger on?


----------



## Flopper (Oct 28, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> The problem with the vaccine appears to be that by not including a virus in the vaccine, the immune system reaction is to only produce antibodies, but not to record the immune response in T-cell memory, so there is nothing after 3 months.
> The mRNA vaccines are only producing a temporary immune response.
> The mRNA vaccines are not creating any lasting immunity.


No sure what you call lasting immunity.  The Prenominal vaccine which older folks should repeat every 10 years starts weakening after about 3 years but it is still very effective.  On the other hand the yearly flu vaccine losses most of it's effectiveness after 4 or 5 months. The anthrax vaccine for humans require 5 does over 18 months and needs a booster yearly.   The Yellow Fever vaccine has very short immunity and requires a booster at least every year.  

Possibly including a live or attenuated virus does add to the length of immunity.  However, vaccines that contain viruses have a nasty habit of creating a major infection, making some people very ill and occasion killing someone.  That in itself is enough to drive people away from taking it.   Clinical trials and ongoing studies show the mRNA vaccines are certainly effective past 3 months.  Except for older folks, those with a compromised immune system, and those that took the Johnson and Johnson viral vector vaccine, a booster is not needed.


----------



## Flopper (Oct 28, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Unlikely the mRNA vaccines will ever work because it is a flawed idea.
> There is on way the immune system can differentiate in its long term memory between different pathogens if there is no pathogen like in the mRNA vaccines.
> The CDC claims the mRNA vaccines enter your own cells, programming them to grow spike proteins.
> Well you can't just tell your immune system to trigger on any and all spike proteins, because your own exosomes also used the same spike proteins.
> So then what are the T-cells supposed to remember to trigger on?


Go to any hospital with a Covid ward and you'll see plenty of proof that these vaccines work.  A covid ward at the hospital I go had 12 corvid deaths' last month.  11 of  the 12 were unvaccinated.


----------



## Flopper (Oct 28, 2021)

Flopper said:


> Go to any hospital with a Covid ward and you'll see plenty of proof that these vaccines work.  A covid ward at the hospital I go to had 12 corvid deaths' last month.  11 of  the 12 were unvaccinated.


----------



## krichton (Oct 28, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> From the top, I am not "anti-vax". So please do not go there. I am posting this as a person with extensive knowledge in the medical field and simply posting empirical observations.
> 
> Modified RNA vaccines (mRNA) are designed to look for common parts of a virus. This makes creating a quick vaccine very easy but it also has negative problems that we are now having to deal with.
> 
> ...



Sinovac was created using the traditional method for making vaccines and when it was released it had an efficacy rating of 50%.  J&J and Astra did not use MRNA and while their results were better they were nowhere near as good as Pfizer or Moderna.  You say you're not antivax but you spread antivax propaganda.  What you just did was taken straight from the antivax 101 playbook the main purpose of is 1. sow doubt with lies and 2. spread fear with lies.


Contracting COVID-19 vs. Vaccination: Which is better for immunity? 









						Coronavirus Disease 2019
					

CDC provides credible COVID-19 health information to the U.S.




					www.cdc.gov
				












						No, a person doesn't have much higher immunity through COVID infection compared to vaccination
					

Does having COVID-19 give you more immunity than the vaccine? We're hearing your questions and getting the facts from medical experts.




					www.abc10.com


----------



## ClaireH (Oct 28, 2021)

Flopper said:


> There is no doubt that mRNA vaccines will improve with time.
> 
> FYI, mRNA vaccines (Pfizer and Moderna) last longer than 4 months.  At 5 months they are still very effective at preventing serious illness.  Since we are still in an epidemic, it makes sense to boost their strength before their effectiveness falls significantly.  As I'm sure you are aware, it takes time to vaccinate the public so you have to start giving boosters at the first sign that they are weakening.  I think we will find that the mRNA vaccines will be effective many months from now. That's why boosters are not for everyone, just older folks, those with compromised immune systems, and those that took the Johnson and Johnson.



Your response lacks the bottom line.

The difference between 4 to 5 months in a potential reduction in severity of symptoms is mute. In fact, only 5% of the population even need this “vaccine”. These fake vaccines produce three months or four months of reducing the chances of severity when it does nothing for prevention. Most people (95%-sourced) are not in the high-risk groups. These evolving data/details that I revisit daily prove this to be the case.

Think of the tried and true (for most people) traditional vaccines.  What do they do they do? They reduce the numbers contracting an illness and prevent the spread of illness. Do you agree that what we have out now in the US do neither of those two things?

The profit/fame shysters new well that labeling a fake vaccine (Webster’s just added messenger RNA to the definition of vaccine last January- good grief) would convince the public it worked like a traditional vaccine. This label was intentional by design to mislead the public. As far as which individual came up with it is without any doubt a highly paid individual, perhaps a bonus involved following. He or she (most likely male due to numbers alone) is not likely going to come out and “take credit”. That is a detail I’ll need to revisit to try to find the name and affiliation which is equally important. I have a good guess about the affiliation, do you?

I beg to differ that the current messenger RNA “vaccines” are going to start producing longer antibody activity than the data show without total change-up. Anyone using common sense already recognizes that if something is not working, yet the advice is to keep getting it over and over, sonething is awry. This is 2021 not 1821.

I might’ve already mentioned this but there are over 200 pharmaceutical companies testing better options due to these lackluster products not working. Far superior will be those targeting the T cells as opposed to memory B cells, at least currently.

One thing about pharmaceutical companies as they are so competitive there will be eventually an exceptional product available. It’s still doesn’t mean it’s a one size fits all and healthy people should even get it for a virus in which 95 percent of the population experience cold-like symptoms.

High risk groups are another story. I am referencing the 95% of the population.

You might assume I’m being facetious but I’m completely serious.  Have you invested in messenger RNA? I ask because apparently you are intelligent but you lack seeing the easy stuff, so what’s going on exactly?


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 28, 2021)

Flopper said:


> No sure what you call lasting immunity.  The Prenominal vaccine which older folks should repeat every 10 years starts weakening after about 3 years but it is still very effective.  On the other hand the yearly flu vaccine losses most of it's effectiveness after 4 or 5 months. The anthrax vaccine for humans require 5 does over 18 months and needs a booster yearly.   The Yellow Fever vaccine has very short immunity and requires a booster at least every year.
> 
> Possibly including a live or attenuated virus does add to the length of immunity.  However, vaccines that contain viruses have a nasty habit of creating a major infection, making some people very ill and occasion killing someone.  That in itself is enough to drive people away from taking it.   Clinical trials and ongoing studies show the mRNA vaccines are certainly effective past 3 months.  Except for older folks, those with a compromised immune system, and those that took the Johnson and Johnson viral vector vaccine, a booster is not needed.



There is no ambiguity about lasting immunity.
It means T-cell memory in the bone marrow, not just antibodies.

Yearly flu vaccines have nothing to do with loss of immunity.
There are hundreds of different diseases we collectively call flu, that is all.
And the vaccine does not lose it effectiveness, it is just a different disease become prevalent.

Anthrax vaccine is not considered a success.
{... To build up protection against anthrax, people need 5 doses over a period of 18 months. However, it is unknown how long that protection lasts so people who are recommended to get this vaccine are advised to get a booster dose each year to stay protected. ... }

You appear to be wrong about Yellow Fever vaccines.
{...  Most people begin to develop immunity within ten days of vaccination and 99 percent are protected within one month, and this appears to be lifelong....}

The J&J contains a virus, but NOT the covid virus, so again there is nothing for the immune system to target against.
{... The J&J/Janssen COVID-19 vaccine also contains a piece of a modified virus that is not the virus that causes COVID-19. This modified virus is called the vector virus. The vector virus cannot reproduce itself, so it is harmless. This vector virus gives instructions to cells in the body to create an immune response. This response helps protect you from getting sick with COVID-19 in the future. After the body produces an immune response, it discards all of the vaccine ingredients just as it would discard any information that cells no longer need. ...}

Vaccines that contain actual virus do not have a worse risk record but a better one.

How could mRNA vaccines last more than 3 months?
The immediate antibodies can not last more than 3 months, and what could the T-cells store?
Without any virus in the mRNA injection, there is nothing the immune system can use to store the immunity response against.
It can't store against spike proteins, since our own exosomes have to use these same spike proteins for ACE2 receptor access.


----------



## ClaireH (Oct 28, 2021)

Flopper said:


> No sure what you call lasting immunity.  The Prenominal vaccine which older folks should repeat every 10 years starts weakening after about 3 years but it is still very effective.  On the other hand the yearly flu vaccine losses most of it's effectiveness after 4 or 5 months. The anthrax vaccine for humans require 5 does over 18 months and needs a booster yearly.   The Yellow Fever vaccine has very short immunity and requires a booster at least every year.
> 
> Possibly including a live or attenuated virus does add to the length of immunity.  However, vaccines that contain viruses have a nasty habit of creating a major infection, making some people very ill and occasion killing someone.  That in itself is enough to drive people away from taking it.   Clinical trials and ongoing studies show the mRNA vaccines are certainly effective past 3 months.  Except for older folks, those with a compromised immune system, and those that took the Johnson and Johnson viral vector vaccine, a booster is not needed.


17 years is lasting immunity.


----------



## ClaireH (Oct 28, 2021)

Flopper said:


> No sure what you call lasting immunity.  The Prenominal vaccine which older folks should repeat every 10 years starts weakening after about 3 years but it is still very effective.  On the other hand the yearly flu vaccine losses most of it's effectiveness after 4 or 5 months. The anthrax vaccine for humans require 5 does over 18 months and needs a booster yearly.   The Yellow Fever vaccine has very short immunity and requires a booster at least every year.
> 
> Possibly including a live or attenuated virus does add to the length of immunity.  However, vaccines that contain viruses have a nasty habit of creating a major infection, making some people very ill and occasion killing someone.  That in itself is enough to drive people away from taking it.   Clinical trials and ongoing studies show the mRNA vaccines are certainly effective past 3 months.  Except for older folks, those with a compromised immune system, and those that took the Johnson and Johnson viral vector vaccine, a booster is not needed.


“The persistence of memory T cell responses to SARS-CoV for 17 years has been demonstrated9. Moreover, there is increasing evidence that SARS-CoV-2 VOCs rarely escape memory T cell responses elicited by SARS-CoV-2 infection or vaccination. “






						T cell-oriented strategies for controlling the COVID-19 pandemic - Nature Reviews Immunology
					

This Comment article proposes that T cell-oriented vaccine strategies should be considered to control the COVID-19 pandemic in the longer term, given declining levels of neutralizing antibodies with time after vaccination or infection and the emergence of viral escape variants.




					www.nature.com
				




Let’s revisit this in a few years and see how things look. The information is known but privately held in check by certain orgs. They are going to have to release all of it to the public due to ethical researchers who are getting out their information.


----------



## LordBrownTrout (Oct 28, 2021)

Vaccinated deaths and hospitalized:





__





						Vaccine Breakthrough
					

Data is cumulative from January 2021 to present.




					dph.illinois.gov


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 28, 2021)

Flopper said:


> Go to any hospital with a Covid ward and you'll see plenty of proof that these vaccines work.  A covid ward at the hospital I go had 12 corvid deaths' last month.  11 of  the 12 were unvaccinated.



That does not at all mean the mRNA injections are acting as vaccines.
Remember that the virus is not what is killing anyone, but it is the fatal over reaction by the immune system, where is deluges the lungs with a cytokine storm, that is fatal.
You do not need a vaccine in order to prevent that deadly cytokine storm.
Essentially what you need is an immuno-suppressant.
So then the mRNA injections could just be reducing the immune response, not increasing it or keeping it in T-cell memory.
That is not what one would define as a vaccine, even though it could be helpful in the short term.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 28, 2021)

krichton said:


> Sinovac was created using the traditional method for making vaccines and when it was released it had an efficacy rating of 50%.  J&J and Astra did not use MRNA and while their results were better they were nowhere near as good as Pfizer or Moderna.  You say you're not antivax but you spread antivax propaganda.  What you just did was taken straight from the antivax 101 playbook the main purpose of is 1. sow doubt with lies and 2. spread fear with lies.
> 
> 
> Contracting COVID-19 vs. Vaccination: Which is better for immunity?
> ...



Wrong.
The Sinovac does use covid virus, and it does exceed 90% efficacy after 3 boosters.
The main advantage is that then immunity is life long.

The J&J and AstrZenica use a different vector, not covid.

It is not propaganda to point out the reality is that you can't force your own cells to grow spike proteins, and then expect your immune system to trigger on covid virus in the future.

And it is your links that are outright propaganda lies.
All real studies say that natural immunity acquired through recovery is vastly superior to these mRNA injection immunities, both in strength and duration.


----------



## Flopper (Oct 28, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> There is no ambiguity about lasting immunity.
> It means T-cell memory in the bone marrow, not just antibodies.
> 
> Yearly flu vaccines have nothing to do with loss of immunity.
> ...


The answer to how long these vaccines are effective will not be found in immune system research but rather studies of actually cases.  For example,  a study that analyzed electronic health records of more than 3 million members of Kaiser Permanente Southern California from when the vaccine was made available in December 2020 to August 2021 reveal the following: The vaccine’s protectiveness against hospitalizations remained high overall, *providing 93 percent protection up to 6 months after being administered.  *The study also found the the vaccine was 90% effective at  preventing minor infections at 4 months but only  53% effective at 5 mos.  The drop to 53% is an indication that protection for serious cases will be dropping in coming months.  This is why the FDA approved the boosters for those at higher risk.  Their is research indicating that another booster will be needed next year, probably for the general public as well as those at high risk.

It the current trend hold, deaths down 15% and cases down 20%,  and vaccination rates up 3% in the last month, by Spring, Covid cases and death will be limited to isolated occurrences.
How Long Pfizer & Moderna COVID-19 Vaccines Work


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 28, 2021)

Flopper said:


> The answer to how long these vaccines are effective will not be found in immune system research but rather studies of actually cases.  For example,  a study that analyzed electronic health records of more than 3 million members of Kaiser Permanente Southern California from when the vaccine was made available in December 2020 to August 2021 reveal the following: The vaccine’s protectiveness against hospitalizations remained high overall, *providing 93 percent protection up to 6 months after being administered.  *The study also found the the vaccine was 90% effective at  preventing minor infections at 4 months but only 53% effective at 5 mos.  The drop to 53% is an indication that protection for serious cases will be dropping in coming months.  This is why the FDA approved the boosters for those at higher risk.  Their is research indicating that another booster will be needed next year, probably for the general public as well as those at high risk.
> 
> It the current trend hold, deaths down 15% and cases down 20%,  and vaccination rates up 3% in the last month, by Spring, Covid cases and death will be limited to isolated occurrences.
> How Long Pfizer & Moderna COVID-19 Vaccines Work



I do not doubt the epidemic will end and the temporary immunity of these vaccines will have helped.
I do not believe more than 4 months after the last injection, there will be any immunity left, because that would require T-cell memory, and if that worked, no booster should have been ever necessary.
I believe the booster is a scam to cover up the fact there is no T-cell memory at all, and it is only boosters each adding an additional 4 months.
But I could be wrong.
Could be the vax worked fine.
Doesn't matter once the epidemic is over.
However, the point is that "flattening the curve" to wait for a vaccine is wrong.
Next epidemic, and there is always going to be another, requires what Gen. George Washington did in 1777.









						One Vaccination, Under God: When George Washington Kept a Smallpox Epidemic From Costing Him the American Revolution
					

Smallpox vaccination was banned in America during the Revolutionary War, but George Washington was determined to protect his army no matter what.




					www.mentalfloss.com
				




{...
Despite his efforts, smallpox was already wreaking havoc on the existing troops. In May 1776, for example, Major General John Thomas lost somewhere between one third to one half of his 10,000 soldiers to smallpox during a siege on Quebec (which they did not win), and Thomas himself died of the disease on June 2.

“The smallpox is ten times more terrible than Britons, Canadians, and Indians together,” John Adams wrote.

In February 1777, Washington told Continental Congress president John Hancock that he saw no other way to prevent the spread of the disease than to inoculate the whole army. By the end of the year, variolation had been performed on about 40,000 soldiers, and infection rates plummeted from 20 percent to a measly 1 percent. Soon after that, legislators across the fledgling nation did away with variolation prohibition.

While Washington has long been lauded for leading American revolutionaries to victory on the battlefield, his shrewd foresight and strong leadership in the face of disease was just as, if not more, important.

“A compelling case can be made that his swift response to the smallpox epidemic and to a policy of inoculation was the most important strategic decision of his military career,” historian Joseph Ellis told _National Geographic_.
...}

And to be clear, "variolation" is the deliberate infection of the most healthy volunteers, with the least virulent strain that can be found.
We could have done that last March, and saved half a million lives.


----------



## Flopper (Oct 28, 2021)

LordBrownTrout said:


> Vaccinated
> 
> 
> LordBrownTrout said:
> ...


No
The cumulative breakthrough deaths were 117 for week of 6/16/2021
The cumulative breakthrough deaths the previous week was 106
Therefore there were 11 deaths in that week (117-106) that were vaccinated
The percent of covid deaths that were vaccinated is the number of vaccinated  covid deaths divide by the total number of covid deaths. You can not determine the total number of covid deaths by looking at breakthrough deaths. However you can get an approximation by looking at the 7 day average deaths in the graph in the link you provided which is 15/day over 7 days which would be 105 total deaths for the week 6/16/21. 

So the % of Covid deaths for that week would be 11/105 = 10.4%  This is in line with reports of vaccinated covid deaths across the country which are running in range of 5% to 15%.


----------



## Flopper (Oct 28, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> I do not doubt the epidemic will end and the temporary immunity of these vaccines will have helped.
> I do not believe more than 4 months after the last injection, there will be any immunity left, because that would require T-cell memory, and if that worked, no booster should have been ever necessary.
> I believe the booster is a scam to cover up the fact there is no T-cell memory at all, and it is only boosters each adding an additional 4 months.
> But I could be wrong.
> ...


I think the flatten of curve was to allow hospitals time to recovery. At that time hospitals were totally unprepared,  shortages of vents, shortages of protective gear, and shortage of medical supplies but most of all shortages of beds and personnel.  This is one of the things that came out of this epidemic, our hospitals were seriously unprepared to deal with a life threatening epidemic.  And strangely, the CDC which is recognized as the world premier leader when it comes to fighting epidemics was certainly unprepared.  In general, I think the whole country was unprepared.  It was just unthinkable that there would be an epidemic that would kill over 700,000 in less than 2 years in a country with one of the most advanced healthcare systems.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 29, 2021)

Flopper said:


> No
> The cumulative breakthrough deaths were 117 for week of 6/16/2021
> The cumulative breakthrough deaths the previous week was 106
> Therefore there were 11 deaths in that week (117-106) that were vaccinated
> ...



Yes the mRNA vax does reduce deaths.
But it is doing that by acting as an immuno-suppressant, or by acting as a vaccine should?


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 29, 2021)

Flopper said:


> I think the flatten of curve was to allow hospitals time to recovery. At that time hospitals were totally unprepared,  shortages of vents, shortages of protective gear, and shortage of medical supplies but most of all shortages of beds and personnel.  This is one of the things that came out of this epidemic, our hospitals were seriously unprepared to deal with a life threatening epidemic.  And strangely, the CDC which is recognized as the world premier leader when it comes to fighting epidemics was certainly unprepared.  In general, I think the whole country was unprepared.  It was just unthinkable that there would be an epidemic that would kill over 700,000 in less than 2 years in a country with one of the most advanced healthcare systems.



Unlike China and Italy, we had months of warning.

And yet, how could the NIH, CDC, and WHO be unprepared, when they were aware of the enhancement research being done at Wuhan?

Nor do I think there was ever a shortage of ventilators because I do not think they ever should have been used.
You can't force air into lungs filled with fluid.
That simply is impossible.

It is not at all hard to imagine an epidemic killing 700,000 in less than 2 years.
That is only 29k per month, which is on the low side for seasonal flu.
My point is that they took a seasonal flu type of event, and deliberately stretched it out continually for 2 whole years,
The total is irrelevant if it could have been sped up and be done with much earlier, through variolation,


----------



## Colin norris (Oct 29, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> From the top, I am not "anti-vax". So please do not go there. I am posting this as a person with extensive knowledge in the medical field and simply posting empirical observations.
> 
> Modified RNA vaccines (mRNA) are designed to look for common parts of a virus. This makes creating a quick vaccine very easy but it also has negative problems that we are now having to deal with.
> 
> ...


You're not anti vaxxer????

Pull the other leg son.  It plays jingle bells.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 29, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> You're not anti vaxxer????
> 
> Pull the other leg son.  It plays jingle bells.



There is no reason to believe these mRNA injections are anything like a vaccine.
They do not contain a virus, they do not seem to go into immune system memory and last, they decrease immune response instead of increase it, and they have over 10 times the side effect death rates and injuries like heart attacks and amputations.


----------



## ClaireH (Oct 29, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Unlike China and Italy, we had months of warning.
> 
> And yet, how could the NIH, CDC, and WHO be unprepared, when they were aware of the enhancement research being done at Wuhan?
> 
> ...


I’ll add another thought about NIH -they are claiming to be totally in the dark about what their grantees are up to -now that’s interesting to say the least!


----------



## LordBrownTrout (Oct 29, 2021)

Flopper said:


> No
> The cumulative breakthrough deaths were 117 for week of 6/16/2021
> The cumulative breakthrough deaths the previous week was 106
> Therefore there were 11 deaths in that week (117-106) that were vaccinated
> ...



No, from everyone I've talked to one doctors, nurses, etc it's about 50/50 vaxed/unvaxed. I think it may weaken the virus in some folks but the injection is still doing great harm to the immune system. Here's Ireland, strange. 










						Pandemic of the Vaccinated: Ireland Hits Grim Milestone Despite Being 90% Vaxxed
					

Ireland is the model nation in the European Union when it comes to the universal vaccination narrative. 90.11% of their




					noqreport.com


----------



## LordBrownTrout (Oct 29, 2021)

Vaccinated People Also Spread the Delta Variant, Yearlong Study Shows
					

People inoculated against Covid-19 are just as likely to spread the delta variant of the virus to contacts in their household as those who haven’t had shots, according to new research.




					www.bloomberg.com
				




So..... the injection is not enough to prevent one from getting infected BUT... ..............................."it is essential for unvaccinated to get vaccinated to protect themselves"  Huh?

“Our findings show that vaccination alone is not enough to prevent people from being infected with the delta variant and spreading it in household settings,” said Ajit Lalvani, a professor of infectious diseases at Imperial College London who co-led the study. “The ongoing transmission we are seeing between vaccinated people makes it essential for unvaccinated people to get vaccinated to protect themselves.”


----------



## Colin norris (Oct 29, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> There is no reason to believe these mRNA injections are anything like a vaccine.
> They do not contain a virus, they do not seem to go into immune system memory and last, they decrease immune response instead of increase it, and they have over 10 times the side effect death rates and injuries like heart attacks and amputations.



How could you possibly know all the things you've said with certainty? There's no evidence on earth to prove that but a Neville nobody from nowhere has medical experience to predict all that without a stroke of qualifications. 
You're right to idiot statements doesn't include the right to assume it is fact.  
I'll say you invented that bullshit as a pathetic defence for hating  Biden  and being an anti vaxxer.


----------



## krichton (Oct 29, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Wrong.
> The Sinovac does use covid virus, and it does exceed 90% efficacy after 3 boosters.
> The main advantage is that then immunity is life long.
> 
> ...



Wrong!   

LOL.  Aside from the lie that ppl are taking 3 BOOSTERS of Sinovac, I gotta say, making such a claim actually makes any argument for Sinovac much worse.   Taking 3 boosters is essentially equivalent to overdosing yourself, and you're telling ppl that Sinovac has achieved 90% efficacy as a result., lmao, good one.  Sinovac has never achieved 90% efficacy at preventing covid infection, ever.  Stop the junk science and lies.

As of right now,  Pfizer produces 10x more antibodies than Sinovac after the second dose.  After 6 months, antibodies in ppl vaccinated with Sinovac are at near undetectable levels in the vast majority of ppl.  So much for your claim that traditional vaccines are better.









						BioNTech Shot Produces 10 Times More Antibodies Than Sinovac, Study Finds
					

There is a substantial gap in the amount of antibodies that mRNA and inactivated vaccines can generate against the virus that causes Covid-19, according to a Hong Kong study, in the latest finding on what may have contributed to the varied outcomes following mass vaccination using different...




					www.bloomberg.com
				












						Antibodies from Sinovac's COVID-19 shot fade after about 6 months, booster helps - study
					

Antibodies triggered by Sinovac Biotech's (SVA.O) COVID-19 vaccine declined below a key threshold from around six months after a second dose for most recipients, but a third shot had a strong booster effect, a lab study showed.




					www.reuters.com
				




As for Moderna, it produces significantly more than twice the number of antibodies as the Pfizer vaccine.    Moderna is so strong it's even nearly 87% effective against delta infection still. 









						Moderna Vaccine Highly Effective Against Delta—But Protection Against Infection May Wane Over Time, New Data Suggests
					

The company said it believes booster shots are necessary “to maintain high levels of protection” as it saw 36% more “breakthrough infections” in people who got the vaccine last year.




					www.forbes.com
				












						Moderna's COVID-19 vaccine proves effective against multiple SARS-CoV-2 variants, including delta
					

Researchers in the United States have demonstrated the real-world effectiveness of Moderna’s mRNA-1273 vaccine at protecting against infection with severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) and preventing hospitalization due to coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19).




					www.news-medical.net
				












						Moderna vs. Pfizer: Is One Vaccine Stronger Against the Delta Variant?
					

With many now able to choose which COVID vaccine they receive, questions surrounding which offers better protection against the now-surging delta variant have spiked.




					www.nbcchicago.com
				




MRNA is the future.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 29, 2021)

krichton said:


> Wrong!
> 
> LOL.  Aside from the lie that ppl are taking 3 BOOSTERS of Sinovac, I gotta say, making such a claim actually makes any argument for Sinovac much worse.   Taking 3 boosters is essentially equivalent to overdosing yourself, and you're telling ppl that Sinovac has achieved 90% efficacy as a result., lmao, good one.  Sinovac has never achieved 90% efficacy at preventing covid infection, ever.  Stop the junk science and lies.
> 
> ...



Wrong.
The point of dividing the Sinovac up into 3 shots is to avoid a negative reaction, not that the vaccine is not effective,

Making antibodies is a treatment, not a vaccine that acts as a preventive by putting immunity into T-cell memory.
The Sinovac puts immunity into T-cell memory, the mRNA injections do not,
mRNA is worthless and invalid completely as a vaccine.


----------



## krichton (Oct 29, 2021)

LordBrownTrout said:


> Vaccinated People Also Spread the Delta Variant, Yearlong Study Shows
> 
> 
> People inoculated against Covid-19 are just as likely to spread the delta variant of the virus to contacts in their household as those who haven’t had shots, according to new research.
> ...



Because it reduces hospitalization and death at up to 95%, that's why.  The majority of the ppl dying from covid breakthroughts are typically severely immunocompromised and hospitalizations are usually from those same ppl.  This one simple fact doesn't seem to get through to you ppl because you're so invested in your moronic lies spanning anywhere from claims of 5G tapping in vaccines to magnets to how it alters your dna, etc, etc..   You are a bunch of children, too afraid to get a needle shot, and are making up stories to justify why you can't get it.  It's really sad, like seriously.


----------



## krichton (Oct 30, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Wrong.
> The point of dividing the Sinovac up into 3 shots is to avoid a negative reaction, not that the vaccine is not effective,
> 
> Making antibodies is a treatment, not a vaccine that acts as a preventive by putting immunity into T-cell memory.
> ...



Wrong   

You said boosters.  Boosters are not part of the initial vaccine dosing of two shots.   

Sinovac is no more special at this than any other covid vaccine including the MRNA ones.   However with Sinovac's failure to even produce enough antibodies to adequately protect ppl in the first place  raises a lot more questions about it's overall efficacy than MRNA ever would.  I'm not surprised that you would gravitate towards the most questionable vaccine out of all of them.


----------



## LordBrownTrout (Oct 30, 2021)

krichton said:


> Because it reduces hospitalization and death at up to 95%, that's why.  The majority of the ppl dying from covid breakthroughts are typically severely immunocompromised and hospitalizations are usually from those same ppl.  This one simple fact doesn't seem to get through to you ppl because you're so invested in your moronic lies spanning anywhere from claims of 5G tapping in vaccines to magnets to how it alters your dna, etc, etc..   You are a bunch of children, too afraid to get a needle shot, and are making up stories to justify why you can't get it.  It's really sad, like seriously.



Nope, the injection hasn't been through the proper clinical trials which usually take 8-12 years.  This one took 6 months and already there are tens of thousands of deaths and hundreds of thousands of injuries.  No thanks.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 30, 2021)

krichton said:


> Because it reduces hospitalization and death at up to 95%, that's why.  The majority of the ppl dying from covid breakthroughts are typically severely immunocompromised and hospitalizations are usually from those same ppl.  This one simple fact doesn't seem to get through to you ppl because you're so invested in your moronic lies spanning anywhere from claims of 5G tapping in vaccines to magnets to how it alters your dna, etc, etc..   You are a bunch of children, too afraid to get a needle shot, and are making up stories to justify why you can't get it.  It's really sad, like seriously.



Sure the mRNA injections reduce death for the compromised.
But for the uncompromised who are 400 times less likely to die from infection, they actually increase the death rate.
Read something about the mRNA injections.
They can kill or maim in many ways, over 10 times more dangerous than any previous vax.
They can cause anaphylactic shock, they can migrate and kill you if the immune system finds them in the brain or heart, they can cause extremity amputation if they migrate to extremities, etc.
And they CAN'T produce long term immunity.
For that, immunity info has to be stored in T-cell memory.
And there is nothing for our immune system to store from mRNA injections.
It can't store a response to spike proteins because our own exosomes have to use spike proteins for ACE2 receptor access.


----------



## Rigby5 (Oct 30, 2021)

krichton said:


> Wrong
> 
> You said boosters.  Boosters are not part of the initial vaccine dosing of two shots.
> 
> Sinovac is no more special at this than any other covid vaccine including the MRNA ones.   However with Sinovac's failure to even produce enough antibodies to adequately protect ppl in the first place  raises a lot more questions about it's overall efficacy than MRNA ever would.  I'm not surprised that you would gravitate towards the most questionable vaccine out of all of them.



Wrong.
Sinovac does not use boosters like the mRNA vax does.
The Sinvac simply spreads out the injection over multiple shots to reduce side effects.
The mRNA needs boosters because it is temporary, transient, and has no long term T-cell memory.

Efficacy is irrelevant since covid is not a serious threat.
All you really want to do is to prevent the fatal over reaction by the immune system, the deadly cytokine storm.

No vaccine "protects" a person from getting infected.
That is not how vaccines or any immune system works.

Sinovac IS special, in that it contains REAL covid virus.
The immune system knows how to store long term immunity information about a REAL virus.
The immune system does NOT know how to store long term immunity information about an mRNA injection that just gets your own cells to grow spike proteins.

There is nothing questionable about a vaccine containing REAL virus.
We know that works.
What is questionable is a vax that only generates spike proteins in our own cells.
That is ridiculously dangerous, and has no means of being stored in long term memory.


----------



## ClaireH (Oct 30, 2021)

krichton said:


> Wrong!
> 
> LOL.  Aside from the lie that ppl are taking 3 BOOSTERS of Sinovac, I gotta say, making such a claim actually makes any argument for Sinovac much worse.   Taking 3 boosters is essentially equivalent to overdosing yourself, and you're telling ppl that Sinovac has achieved 90% efficacy as a result., lmao, good one.  Sinovac has never achieved 90% efficacy at preventing covid infection, ever.  Stop the junk science and lies.
> 
> ...


They absolutely made a mistake for profit motive and rushed trusting with targeting memory B cells when targeting T cells was the solution.

It’s not worth arguing over whether its 4 or 6 months “protection” when protection is defined as increased antibodies* that can only reduce symptoms, not prevention.  *How can you claim these ineffective products are effective?

The populace at large will soon have access to a true vaccine for prevention from coronaviruses, and it’s predicted to work equally to its success with influenza to the tune of 17 years of real protection. 17 years, that’s all I need to know.







						T cell-oriented strategies for controlling the COVID-19 pandemic - Nature Reviews Immunology
					

This Comment article proposes that T cell-oriented vaccine strategies should be considered to control the COVID-19 pandemic in the longer term, given declining levels of neutralizing antibodies with time after vaccination or infection and the emergence of viral escape variants.




					www.nature.com


----------



## Billy_Bob (Oct 31, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> You're not anti vaxxer????
> 
> Pull the other leg son.  It plays jingle bells.


You obviously don't have a clue how the human bodies immune system works...


----------



## Colin norris (Oct 31, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> You obviously don't have a clue how the human bodies immune system works...



And you're an expert on it Dr. Billy Bob?


----------



## krichton (Nov 1, 2021)

ClaireH said:


> They absolutely made a mistake for profit motive and rushed trusting with targeting memory B cells when targeting T cells was the solution.
> 
> It’s not worth arguing over whether its 4 or 6 months “protection” when protection is defined as increased antibodies* that can only reduce symptoms, not prevention.  *How can you claim these ineffective products are effective?
> 
> ...



The article you link argues that both infection and the mrna vaccines elicit t cell responses equally.   Thank you for proving yourself wrong with your own link.  The article mentions that there are other vaccines in the works that will target more than the spike protein for a broader t cell response, but I literally have no idea where you are getting the whole "17 years of protection from influeza."   No vaccine exists against influenza which doesn't require a yearly flu shot in the arm.  What a strange lie to make up.   There is no "true" vaccine. Even in the article you linked says,  herd immunity is unlikely and we must continue our current vaccine programs.  Do you even read any of this stuff?

Here's some additional reading about mrna and tcell response for anyone who can read properly









						T-Cells & COVID-19: Penn Study Shows Robust T-Cell Response to Vaccine
					

Messenger-RNA (mRNA) vaccines against the coronavirus that causes COVID-19 provoke a swift and strong response by the immune system’s T cells—the heavy armor of the immune system—according to a study from researchers in the Perelman School of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania.



					www.pennmedicine.org
				












						Do mRNA-based COVID-19 vaccines induce memory T cell response similar to natural infection?
					

A team of scientists from the United States has recently compared the epitope-specific T cell response after natural severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) infection or vaccination in both naïve and previously infected individuals.




					www.news-medical.net


----------



## krichton (Nov 1, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Wrong.
> Sinovac does not use boosters like the mRNA vax does.
> The Sinvac simply spreads out the injection over multiple shots to reduce side effects.
> The mRNA needs boosters because it is temporary, transient, and has no long term T-cell memory.
> ...



Wrong   

You specifically said Sinovac has achieved 90% efficacy by way of 3 boosters.  I can't even tell you how much wrong there is in that one statement. lol.  

Dont need boosters you say?  I thought you said you needed 3 boosters.  Several countries are already issuing out sinovac boosters because antibodies from that vaccine has literally plummeted so dramatically.  When your original efficacy was 50%, I'm not surprised to read that antibodies are nearly undetectable in some ppl.  Tcell memory of covid infection and vaccination have been studied and the conclusion over and over is that they are the same.  Stop it with all the junk science.


----------



## ClaireH (Nov 1, 2021)

krichton said:


> *The article you link argues that both infection and the mrna vaccines elicit t cell responses equally*.   Thank you for proving yourself wrong with your own link.  The article mentions that there are other vaccines in the works that will target more than the spike protein for a broader t cell response, but I literally have no idea where you are getting the whole "17 years of protection from influeza."   No vaccine exists against influenza which doesn't require a yearly flu shot in the arm.  What a strange lie to make up.   There is no "true" vaccine. Even in the article you linked says,  herd immunity is unlikely and we must continue our current vaccine programs.  Do you even read any of this stuff?
> 
> Here's some additional reading about mrna and tcell response for anyone who can read properly
> 
> ...


If you expected I wouldn’t respond to your deliberate falsehoods you are mistaken. Your very first sentence is a blatant lie.

Tip to all readers: read the article and take what you will from it; always avoid any middleman’s intention to falsify primary sources such as this Kritchton character.

Had the three vaccine amateur pharmaceutical companies gone the route of targeting T cells instead of only specific areas on Spike and focus on memory B cell, The data supports that 17 years and still going strong for H1N1 protection.


----------



## Billy_Bob (Nov 23, 2021)

ClaireH said:


> They absolutely made a mistake for profit motive and rushed trusting with targeting memory B cells when targeting T cells was the solution.
> 
> It’s not worth arguing over whether its 4 or 6 months “protection” when protection is defined as increased antibodies* that can only reduce symptoms, not prevention.  *How can you claim these ineffective products are effective?
> 
> ...


IF you really want to get down to brass tacks on this, the Modified messenger RNA shot does not meet the clinical criteria for a vaccine.  They do not allow full cell mapping by the human immune system.  This means your immune system will never learn this virus and you will always be at risk from it. Endless shots to keep some form of antibodies makes big pharma hugely profitable while the virus keeps the pandemic going for control purposes.


----------



## Billy_Bob (Nov 23, 2021)

ClaireH said:


> If you expected I wouldn’t respond to your deliberate falsehoods you are mistaken. Your very first sentence is a blatant lie.
> 
> Tip to all readers: read the article and take what you will from it; always avoid any middleman’s intention to falsify primary sources such as this Kritchton character.
> 
> Had the three vaccine amateur pharmaceutical companies gone the route of targeting T cells instead of only specific areas on Spike and focus on memory B cell, The data supports that 17 years and still going strong for H1N1 protection.


Correct;

Spike proteins target the B memory cell. 

The human immune system is triggered by mass.  Consider the mass of the spike proteins' vs the virus, 1 vs 1/100, this is why the immune system takes so long to trigger. Secondly, the Partial cell is not learned and the body never responds to it.  This means no long-term immunities are built. 

Once the man-made antibodies are gone so are your protections.  Endless big pharma shots every 4-6 months and the virus continues unabated.  This is why Europe is having its fourth major wave of infections...


----------



## badger2 (Nov 23, 2021)

ClaireH said:


> If you expected I wouldn’t respond to your deliberate falsehoods you are mistaken. Your very first sentence is a blatant lie.
> 
> Tip to all readers: read the article and take what you will from it; always avoid any middleman’s intention to falsify primary sources such as this Kritchton character.
> 
> Had the three vaccine amateur pharmaceutical companies gone the route of targeting T cells instead of only specific areas on Spike and focus on memory B cell, The data supports that 17 years and still going strong for H1N1 protection.


Fau Chi is the pivot between HIV-1 T cells and influenza T cells.


----------



## badger2 (Nov 23, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> Correct;
> 
> Spike proteins target the B memory cell.
> 
> ...


But mRNA forces the cell to produce Chinese virus parts, and these parts are suspect in causing thrombosis.


----------



## Billy_Bob (Nov 23, 2021)

badger2 said:


> But mRNA forces the cell to produce Chinese virus parts, and these parts are suspect in causing thrombosis.


Women are most at risk due to the RH factors.  A lot of things the mRNA experiments do to the human body were not foreseen.  They didn't even know that they block the human immune system from forming long term protections.  IF they did know, it makes the mandates a purposeful way to keep killing people. I know many of those left-wing folks want population control and have for decades. but that is sinical bordering on criminal if you can prove it.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 23, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> And you're an expert on it Dr. Billy Bob?



You do not need to be an expert in order to know that vaccines have to have real virus so that the immune system can remember something about that caused the past threat, for reference in the future.
And if you were to claim the immune system used spike proteins as identifiers instead, that also can't work because our own exosomes have to use those same spike proteins.

There is no way these mRNA injections could possibly work, and everyone knows it.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 23, 2021)

krichton said:


> The article you link argues that both infection and the mrna vaccines elicit t cell responses equally.   Thank you for proving yourself wrong with your own link.  The article mentions that there are other vaccines in the works that will target more than the spike protein for a broader t cell response, but I literally have no idea where you are getting the whole "17 years of protection from influeza."   No vaccine exists against influenza which doesn't require a yearly flu shot in the arm.  What a strange lie to make up.   There is no "true" vaccine. Even in the article you linked says,  herd immunity is unlikely and we must continue our current vaccine programs.  Do you even read any of this stuff?
> 
> Here's some additional reading about mrna and tcell response for anyone who can read properly
> 
> ...



Wrong.

There is nothing in these mRNA injections the immune system can store in T-cells.
If there was any T-cell response, then there would no need for any boosters at all, in less than a range like 5 years at least.
T-cell memory is usually good for over 30 years.

All the influenza vaccines are life long.
You get different influenza vaccination because there is not one influenza, but hundreds of different pathogens we collectively call influenza.
Anyone who claims flu shot loose effectiveness over time, do not at all know what they are talking about.

Anyone questioning herd immunity is an idiot.
Clearly if herd immunity did not work, was not effective, could not be relied on, etc., then all living species would have gone extinct, hundreds of millions of years ago.  Herd immunity is what has historically always worked and was the only solution for hundreds of millions of years.  And even though vaccines were invented about 200 years ago, they also still rely on herd immunity, since not everyone can be vaccinated.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 23, 2021)

krichton said:


> Wrong
> 
> You specifically said Sinovac has achieved 90% efficacy by way of 3 boosters.  I can't even tell you how much wrong there is in that one statement. lol.
> 
> Dont need boosters you say?  I thought you said you needed 3 boosters.  Several countries are already issuing out sinovac boosters because antibodies from that vaccine has literally plummeted so dramatically.  When your original efficacy was 50%, I'm not surprised to read that antibodies are nearly undetectable in some ppl.  Tcell memory of covid infection and vaccination have been studied and the conclusion over and over is that they are the same.  Stop it with all the junk science.



Wrong.

Incredibly ignorant.
There is a huge difference between dividing a single vaccination process into 3 shots, and the mRNA situation where you need another shot every 4 months, forever.

Immunity is stored in T-cells, so can not be measured in any passive way.
Detecting antibodies does NOT tell you anything about immunity, at all, in any way.

The only way to tell what sort of T-cell memory the immune system has stored is to deliberately reinfect a person.
Such a study has NOT ever been done.
Anyone claiming proof that mRNA injection provides any long term T-cell memory is lying.

All they have ever tested is the statistics on breakthrough infection, of people infected after injection
And that is pointless since there is temporary immunity from short term antibody stimulation.


----------



## ClaireH (Nov 23, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Wrong.
> 
> There is nothing in these mRNA injections the immune system can store in T-cells.
> If there was any T-cell response, then there would no need for any boosters at all, in less than a range like 5 years at least.
> ...


The decision to intentionally enforce  a lengthier time period for viral activity was directly caused by Fauci and NIH heads in flattening the curve. They knowingly (unless completely unfamiliar with pandemic response measures) skipped home care/public health education information,
exasperated public panic by telling sick people to stay home because the hospitals were out of PPE. These people cannot be this stupid given their field of supposed expertise. Skipping Tier 2 altogether at the early stages of a pandemic plan going directly into Tier 3 with a fake vaccination mode was the worst decision possible. This decision prevented the window of herd immunity which was still possible at that time- early 2020. Unqualified and uninformed people making decisions for the masses never results in a good outcome. The individuals who made that decision should have been fired.


----------



## Colin norris (Nov 23, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> You do not need to be an expert in order to know that vaccines have to have real virus so that the immune system can remember something about that caused the past threat, for reference in the future.
> And if you were to claim the immune system used spike proteins as identifiers instead, that also can't work because our own exosomes have to use those same spike proteins.
> 
> There is no way these mRNA injections could possibly work, and everyone knows it.




Unless you're an expert you're talking shit..  youre not everybody


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 23, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> Unless you're an expert you're talking shit..  youre not everybody



I am not a medical expert, but I work on pacemakers, have to keep up on all the medical literature, and can easily read and understand medical books.
And I know what I am talking about.
You can too, if you bother to do the research.
These mRNA injections simply cannot work.
The immune system has to have something to remember in T-cells.
The mRNA injections do not have anything that can be remembered.


----------



## Flopper (Nov 23, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> IF you really want to get down to brass tacks on this, the Modified messenger RNA shot does not meet the clinical criteria for a vaccine.  They do not allow full cell mapping by the human immune system.  This means your immune system will never learn this virus and you will always be at risk from it. Endless shots to keep some form of antibodies makes big pharma hugely profitable while the virus keeps the pandemic going for control purposes.


link?


----------



## Flopper (Nov 23, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> I am not a medical expert, but I work on pacemakers, have to keep up on all the medical literature, and can easily read and understand medical books.
> And I know what I am talking about.
> You can too, if you bother to do the research.
> These mRNA injections simply cannot work.
> ...


The durability of immune memory after SARS-CoV-2 mRNA vaccination remains unclear. Here, we longitudinally profiled vaccine responses in SARS-CoV-2 naïve and recovered individuals for 6 months after vaccination. Antibodies declined from peak levels but remained detectable in most subjects at 6 months. We found mRNA vaccines generated functional memory B cells that increased from 3-6 months post-vaccination, with the majority of these cells cross-binding the Alpha, Beta, and Delta variants. mRNA vaccination further induced antigen-specific CD4+ and CD8+ T cells, and early CD4+ T cell responses correlated with long-term humoral immunity. Recall responses to vaccination in individuals with pre-existing immunity primarily increased antibody levels without substantially altering antibody decay rates. *Together, these findings demonstrate robust cellular immune memory to SARS-CoV-2 and variants for at least 6 months after mRNA vaccination.*






						Science | AAAS
					






					www.science.org


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 23, 2021)

Flopper said:


> link?



This is an interesting read I think you will find.
This about a fifth of the whole article.





__





						Science | AAAS
					






					www.science.org
				




{...
What mRNA is Good For, And What It Maybe Isn't​
29 JUN 2021
BY DEREK LOWE
...
*Therapeutic mRNAs*

The first distinction is between vaccines and therapeutics. It's hard to remember now, but Moderna did not really start out as a vaccine company - they were going to make mRNA-based therapeutics, and there are some key differences. It's an exciting idea to reach into the body and tell particular cells to start making particular proteins (of your choice) by sending mRNA messages into them. You can think of a lot of possibilities, but there are a lot of difficulties along the way to realizing that.

For one, you're not taking advantage of the memory that the immune system brings, which is what lets you vaccinate for a brief period and then have months, years, maybe even decades of protective effects. This sort of mRNA work isn't immune-driven at all, in theory, and if you need your target cells to keep producing your desired protein, you're going to have to keep telling them that by sending them more mRNA. Once a day? Once a week? Who knows? That'll need to be worked out by experiment.

A second problem is that "not immune driven" part. If you go back to the earliest attempts to treat cells with external mRNA constructs, the people running these experiments weren't trying to set off an immune response - they were trying to do that "make me a protein" trick. But foreign mRNA can be very immunogenic indeed - the innate immune system is constantly watching for various foreign nucleic acid species as a sign of infection. In fact, one thing that had to be worked out for the vaccines over the years was how to turn down that immediate immune response so that the more long-lasting adaptive immune one had a chance to kick in. (As mentioned in this post, that may well have been what sank the CureVac mRNA vaccine, which will continue to stand as a demonstration that mRNA technology is not the Magic Road to Efficacy._ Nothing_ is the Magic Road to Efficacy). So if you're going to give patients an mRNA injection and you don't want to set off alarm bells in the innate immune system, you're going to have to carefully engineer your sequences at the very least.
...}

_{...
Derek Lowe, an Arkansan by birth, got his BA from Hendrix College and his PhD in organic chemistry from Duke before spending time in Germany on a Humboldt Fellowship on his post-doc. He’s worked for several major pharmaceutical companies since 1989 on drug discovery projects against schizophrenia, Alzheimer’s, diabetes, osteoporosis and other diseases. 
...}_


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## Rigby5 (Nov 23, 2021)

Flopper said:


> The durability of immune memory after SARS-CoV-2 mRNA vaccination remains unclear. Here, we longitudinally profiled vaccine responses in SARS-CoV-2 naïve and recovered individuals for 6 months after vaccination. Antibodies declined from peak levels but remained detectable in most subjects at 6 months. We found mRNA vaccines generated functional memory B cells that increased from 3-6 months post-vaccination, with the majority of these cells cross-binding the Alpha, Beta, and Delta variants. mRNA vaccination further induced antigen-specific CD4+ and CD8+ T cells, and early CD4+ T cell responses correlated with long-term humoral immunity. Recall responses to vaccination in individuals with pre-existing immunity primarily increased antibody levels without substantially altering antibody decay rates. *Together, these findings demonstrate robust cellular immune memory to SARS-CoV-2 and variants for at least 6 months after mRNA vaccination.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I read it but did not find it convincing.
For example:
{...
Immunological studies of SARS-CoV-2 infection show that memory B and T cell responses appear to persist for at least 8 months post-symptom onset (_28_, _29_). However, the durability of these populations of memory B and T cells following vaccination remains poorly understood. 
...}
If the person is getting boosters every 3 months, and that temporarily stimulated antibody production, then that would not indicate T-cell or B-cell memory at all.  
The shortest T-cell memory I know of is from Pertussis, which is still at least over 3 years.
So when someone is referring to 8 months, that does not fit any T-cell memory I am familiar with.
Normally you measure T-cell memory in decades, not months or years even.

The problem I have is that I do not know what T-cells store, but I do not think those designing these mRNA injections know much more than I do.
And since these mRNA injections have nothing the immune system can trigger on, I don't see how they could possibly work?
They are claiming the lack of success is due to variants, but the variants have identical spike proteins, so the immune response should still be identical.
I think they are just deliberately pulling a fraud.  

The high rate of reinfection, the % vaccinated having no effect on surges, and the ease with which re-infections spreads, implies all these mRNA injections do is temporarily stimulate a therapeutic antibody response.
Which is not at all remotely like a vaccine.

Examine the claim that the loss of effectiveness was due to variants.
Well then how come boosters are being recommended and they seem to help?
Since the boosters are identical to the original mRNA injection, they can not have any greater means of identifying the variants than the original shot.
So then that indicates actual identification was never a factor or capability.
All they are doing is temporarily stimulating antibody production.


----------



## Colin norris (Nov 23, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> I am not a medical expert, but I work on pacemakers, have to keep up on all the medical literature, and can easily read and understand medical books.
> And I know what I am talking about.
> You can too, if you bother to do the research.
> These mRNA injections simply cannot work.
> ...



Why haven't you revealed your vast reservoir of knowledge to the government? You could have saved thousands of lives. 

You work on pacemakers. Really, what work? Exactly what do you do because I'm suspicious you don't


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## Rigby5 (Nov 23, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> Why haven't you revealed your vast reservoir of knowledge to the government? You could have saved thousands of lives.
> 
> You work on pacemakers. Really, what work? Exactly what do you do because I'm suspicious you don't



Yes the government could have easily saved over half a million lives.
All they had do was NOT "flatten the curve".
That is not a recognized, traditional, historic, or scientific strategy.
If an epidemic is very lethal, you do full quarantine, with contact tracing, and immediately wipe it out.
If it is less lethal, then you do deliberate variolation in order to quickly achieve herd immunity.
There is no third option I am aware of.
Vaccines have never been used to end an epidemic in progress, and they usually take over 6 years due to the extensive years of testing.
But even vaccines only help achieve herd immunity, and can't end an epidemic by itself.

A pacemaker is just a computer, with a processor, memory, etc.
If it paced all the time, its battery would not last a week, and the muscle the electrode is implanted in would become insensitive in a week.
So pacemakers are quite complicated, watching for evidence of tachycardia or bradycardia.
And my expertise is actually software.
But you would not believe what I have to know about medicine, to do the programming.
As a point of interest, the cpu is actually the old MOS Tech 6502 design, only miniaturized with the latest fab implementation.
Funny to think of having an old Atari in your chest, running for a decade off a tiny battery.


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## Colin norris (Nov 23, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Yes the government could have easily saved over half a million lives.
> All they had do was NOT "flatten the curve".
> That is not a recognized, traditional, historic, or scientific strategy.
> If an epidemic is very lethal, you do full quarantine, with contact tracing, and immediately wipe it out.
> ...



You're right.  I'd be surprised what  you if anything. I Can tell you know nothing about vaccines.  Have you been double sided yet.   Yes or no


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## Rogue AI (Nov 23, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> You're right.  I'd be surprised what  you if anything. I Can tell you know nothing about vaccines.  Have you been double sided yet.   Yes or no


What's your expertise in? How does it justify you harping on anyone who doesn't agree with you on these experimental treatments?


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## Colin norris (Nov 23, 2021)

Rogue AI said:


> What's your expertise in? How does it justify you harping on anyone who doesn't agree with you on these experimental treatments?



My opinion is good enough for me.  If you don't line it, get a ticket get in line and kiss my butt. 

His expertise is nothing but a big mouth.  You'd believe anything.


----------



## Rogue AI (Nov 23, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> My opinion is good enough for me.  If you don't line it, get a ticket get in line and kiss my butt.
> 
> His expertise is nothing but a big mouth.  You'd believe anything.


So you are just spouting off garbage someone else told you. Not very compelling.


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## Rigby5 (Nov 24, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> You're right.  I'd be surprised what  you if anything. I Can tell you know nothing about vaccines.  Have you been double sided yet.   Yes or no



It is you who know nothing about vaccines.
For example, do you know that vaccines came from variolation, like Gen. Washington ordered in 1777?








						One Vaccination, Under God: When George Washington Kept a Smallpox Epidemic From Costing Him the American Revolution
					

Smallpox vaccination was banned in America during the Revolutionary War, but George Washington was determined to protect his army no matter what.




					www.mentalfloss.com
				



The article used the word "vaccine", but that is actually wrong.
Vaccines did not exist yet in 1777, and it was variolation instead.

Here is a simple test.
For any vaccine to work, the immune system has to store something in its memory to identify the particular pathogen.
What does an mRNA store to allow the immune system to identify covid in the future?

The answer is there is nothing.  Since the mRNA injections do not contain a pathogen, it can't give the immune system anything to trigger on.
If you said "spike proteins", you would be wrong because our own exosomes have to also use spike proteins.


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## Rigby5 (Nov 24, 2021)

Colin norris said:


> My opinion is good enough for me.  If you don't line it, get a ticket get in line and kiss my butt.
> 
> His expertise is nothing but a big mouth.  You'd believe anything.



No, I have stated logic and reason.  It is you who have to find a way to defend mRNA injects and find a way they could possibly work, because logically then can't.
And the evidence also is they do not work, and that is why they are trying to lie and claim it is the variants causing all the breakout infections of those supposedly vaccinated.
But for variants to not be recognized, they would have to be significantly different, and they are not.  They use the same spike protein.


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## MarathonMike (Nov 24, 2021)

Billy_Bob That makes sense. It also happens to be the perfect money machine for the vaccine companies as you constantly have to get jabbed with their substandard vaccine. What are the long term effects on your body if people get annual or semi-annual mRNA based vaccines? Something tells me that is not the road we want to take.


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## Rigby5 (Nov 24, 2021)

MarathonMike said:


> Billy_Bob That makes sense. It also happens to be the perfect money machine for the vaccine companies as you constantly have to get jabbed with their substandard vaccine. What are the long term effects on your body if people get annual or semi-annual mRNA based vaccines? Something tells me that is not the road we want to take.



Yes, unfortunately money has taken over our medical profession it seems.


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## Flopper (Nov 24, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Yes the government could have easily saved over half a million lives.
> All they had do was NOT "flatten the curve".
> That is not a recognized, traditional, historic, or scientific strategy.
> If an epidemic is very lethal, you do full quarantine, with contact tracing, and immediately wipe it out.
> ...


As the saying goes,  '*A little knowledge is a dangerous thing*'

The term variolation refers solely to inoculation with the smallpox virus and is related to but not interchangeable with vaccination.  The procedure was abandoned  due to the danger of using a live virus.  It was supplanted by vaccination after 1798. In 1842 an act of Parliament in England made the practice of variolation a felony in that country.

Over the last year a  “variolation hypothesis” has arisen in which a controlled dose of the virus is introduced into the body through using masks to reduce the viral load.  This remains a supposition supported by limited evidence.  I doubt any scientist today in his right mind would suggest injecting a person with the live unattenuated SARS-Cov-2.









						variolation | medicine
					

variolation,  obsolete method of immunizing patients against smallpox by infecting them with substance from the pustules of patients with a mild form of the disease (variola minor). The disease then usually occurs in a less-dangerous form than when contracted naturally. The method was...



					www.britannica.com


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## Rigby5 (Nov 24, 2021)

Flopper said:


> As the saying goes,  '*A little knowledge is a dangerous thing*'
> 
> The term variolation refers solely to inoculation with the smallpox virus and is related to but not interchangeable with vaccination.  The procedure was abandoned  due to the danger of using a live virus.  It was supplanted by vaccination after 1798. In 1842 an act of Parliament in England made the practice of variolation a felony in that country.
> 
> ...



Yes I am aware variolation originally means deliberate infection with smallpox, but came to be known as any deliberate infection.
Variolation should always be abandoned for actual vaccination once one has a safe vaccine, because the risks inherent to deliberate infection.

But the point is that with covid, the chances of death are 400 times greater if over 70, as compared to under 40, so the risks of variolation with live unattenuated covid to those under 40, was completely insignificant compared to the risk to those over 70.
And the point is if about half the population had volunteered for deliberate infection with covid, last March, then the death toll would have been under 50,000, and the epidemic would have been completely ended in less than a month.
We had no vaccine yet at that time, (and I don't we still do have a vaccine yet), so flattening the curve for 1.5 years was not worth it.
We increased the death total by over a factor of 10.
The death toll from deliberate infection of volunteers under 40 would have been less than a tenth the death toll we have now, and now it is possible we will never be able to end this covid epidemic.  We may have caused it to evolve into being permanent.
And it seems to me that these mRNA injections are a total and complete failure.
The only good they do is a temporary 4 month long stimulation of the production of additional antibodies.


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## Flopper (Nov 24, 2021)

Flopper said:


> As the saying goes,  '*A little knowledge is a dangerous thing*'
> 
> The term variolation refers solely to inoculation with the smallpox virus and is related to but not interchangeable with vaccination.  The procedure was abandoned  due to the danger of using a live virus.  It was supplanted by vaccination after 1798. In 1842 an act of Parliament in England made the practice of variolation a felony in that country.
> 
> ...





Rigby5 said:


> Yes the government could have easily saved over half a million lives.
> All they had do was NOT "flatten the curve".
> That is not a recognized, traditional, historic, or scientific strategy.
> If an epidemic is very lethal, you do full quarantine, with contact tracing, and immediately wipe it out.
> ...


Testing, quarantining, with contact tracing has proved very effective.  In fact, South Korea made it their primary response to the alpha variant in March 2020 with great results.  It works extremely well when the number of cases are small relative to the size of the testing, quarantining, and contact tracing effort.   In South Korea when there was less than a few hundred known cases and tens of thousands of workers assigned to the effort, the number new cases dropped to nearly zero.  However when the delta variant hit, the transmission rate was so high, this strategy simply required more resources than they had.

Once you have hundreds thousands of cases,  the effort becomes so great that you can not contain the epidemic.  It simple becomes another method of reducing the spread, like mask wearing and social distancing.   Had the US had the resources in place in March 2020, we could have controlled the spread of alpha variant.


----------



## Flopper (Nov 24, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Yes I am aware variolation originally means deliberate infection with smallpox, but came to be known as any deliberate infection.
> Variolation should always be abandoned for actual vaccination once one has a safe vaccine, because the risks inherent to deliberate infection.
> 
> But the point is that with covid, the chances of death are 400 times greater if over 70, as compared to under 40, so the risks of variolation with live unattenuated covid to those under 40, was completely insignificant compared to the risk to those over 70.
> ...


The biggest drawback in using a live virus is convincing people to take the vaccine.  Scientists found ways of attenuated the Smallpox virus so the vaccine was very safe.  However It took 200 years to get the world sufficiently vaccinated against smallpox to irradiate it.   I remember as a young child, my parents complaining that they were being forced by the school board to have their kids   vaccinated with a virus that might make them sick or worse.   Today the anti-vax movement can be traced back to the fight against inoculating our children with one of the most deadly viruses in history.  As we have seen with covid, a large segment of the population does not make health decisions based on scientific evidence.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 24, 2021)

Flopper said:


> Testing, quarantining, with contact tracing has proved very effective.  In fact, South Korea made it their primary response to the alpha variant in March 2020 with great results.  It works extremely well when the number of cases are small relative to the size of the testing, quarantining, and contact tracing effort.   In South Korea when there was less than a few hundred known cases and tens of thousands of workers assigned to the effort, the number new cases dropped to nearly zero.  However when the delta variant hit, the transmission rate was so high, this strategy simply required more resources than they had.
> 
> Once you have hundreds thousands of cases,  the effort becomes so great that you can not contain the epidemic.  It simple becomes another method of reducing the spread, like mask wearing and social distancing.   Had the US had the resources in place in March 2020, we could have controlled the spread of alpha variant.



Testing, quarantining, with contact tracing works great.
But that has nothing to do with "flattening the curve".
With testing, quarantining, and contact tracing, you intend to reduce R0 to as low as possible, definitely below 1.0, and then you can end an epidemic in a short time, like less than a month.

In contrast, with "flattening the curve", you do not do testing, quarantining, or contact tracing.
Instead you just have everyone one wear a mask and social distance.
That can never reduce the infection rate below 1.0, so then will always be totally and completely unproductive, since it just slows down the infection rate to prevent herd immunity, without actually doing anything to end the epidemic.

And the delta variant had nothing to do with it.
By then it was already way too late, because we had been doing the foolish "flattening the curve" for almost a year.

The point is that once the testing, quarantine, and contact tracing method is abandoned, for whatever reason, then the only remaining strategy is deliberate infection of those least likely to be harmed, in order to achieve herd immunity as quickly as possible.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 24, 2021)

Flopper said:


> The biggest drawback in using a live virus is convincing people to take the vaccine.  Scientists found ways of attenuated the Smallpox virus so the vaccine was very safe.  However It took 200 years to get the world sufficiently vaccinated against smallpox to irradiate it.   I remember as a young child, my parents complaining that they were being forced by the school board to have their kids   vaccinated with a virus that might make them sick or worse.   Today the anti-vax movement can be traced back to the fight against inoculating our children with one of the most deadly viruses in history.  As we have seen with covid, a large segment of the population does not make health decisions based on scientific evidence.



Those under 40 were at so little risk, that there were more than sufficient volunteers available.
In fact, at spring break social gatherings like Daytona Beach, they had to arrest hundreds in order to prevent them from deliberately getting infected on their own.
If you deliberately infect by injection, it is vastly superior because then you know who and when to quarantine those deliberately infected.

The main portion of the population who does not make health decisions based on science is the government.
The point is with any epidemic, you have to use a fast strategy.
One extreme or the other.
You either totally quarantine, test, and contact trace to quickly wipe it out, or you deliberately infect in order to quickly achieve herd immunity and wipe it out.
Doing something in the middle, that cannot possibly end it, is insanely irrational.
Flattening the curve does absolutely no good at all, you are worse off than before, and all you did was give it more time to spread even more deeply and wider.

Look at the Spanish flu.  It was a total disaster.
It was no more deadly, but was prevented from ending by the mask and social distancing mandates.
Spanish flu has returned since 1918, and was insignificant, because we did not mask or social distance, so it quickly burned out with herd immunity.
Same with covid.
We could have ended it quickly with either known scientific method, but instead went with flattening the curve with masks and social distancing, a method known to be a total disaster.


----------



## Flopper (Nov 24, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> It is you who know nothing about vaccines.
> For example, do you know that vaccines came from variolation, like Gen. Washington ordered in 1777?
> 
> 
> ...


"What does an mRNA store to allow the immune system to identify covid in the future?
The answer is there is nothing."

You are technically correct in saying an mRNA (vaccine) does not store anything in immune system memory because no vaccine stores anything immune system memory.  It is the bodies immune system reacting to a pathogen that creates  memory.  An yes the spike protein is recognized as a pathogen, otherwise there would be no antibody creation.    

"We found mRNA vaccines generated functional memory B cells that increased from 3-6 months post-vaccination, with the majority of these cells cross-binding the Alpha, Beta, and Delta variants. mRNA vaccination further induced antigen-specific CD4+ and CD8+ T cells, and early CD4+ T cell responses correlated with long-term humoral immunity. Recall responses to vaccination in individuals with pre-existing immunity primarily increased antibody levels without substantially altering antibody decay rates*. Together, these findings demonstrate robust cellular immune memory to SARS-CoV-2 and variants for at least 6 months after mRNA vaccination." *

...... We found mRNA vaccines generated functional memory B cells that increased from 3-6 months post-vaccination, with the majority of these cells cross-binding the Alpha, Beta, and Delta variants. mRNA vaccination further induced antigen-specific CD4+ and CD8+ T cells, and early CD4+ T cell responses correlated with long-term humoral immunity. Recall responses to vaccination in individuals with pre-existing immunity primarily increased antibody levels without substantially altering antibody decay rates. Together, these findings demonstrate robust cellular immune memory to SARS-CoV-2 and variants for at least 6 months after mRNA vaccination.






						Science | AAAS
					






					www.science.org


----------



## Flopper (Nov 24, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Those under 40 were at so little risk, that there were more than sufficient volunteers available.
> In fact, at spring break social gatherings like Daytona Beach, they had to arrest hundreds in order to prevent them from deliberately getting infected on their own.
> If you deliberately infect by injection, it is vastly superior because then you know who and when to quarantine those deliberately infected.
> 
> ...


If we deliberately infect by injection, then we know exactly who to blame for the resulting sickness and deaths.


----------



## SweetSue92 (Nov 25, 2021)

I have never seen nor even imagined what's happening in MI right now. "Fully vaccinated" getting sick in droves here. I mean sick too: not "testing positive". Just heard of another one, a mom at school, and one of the biggest Covidiots who's always lecturing others about masks and vaccines on social media.

Again I don't know what these shots are. Not vaccines though.


----------



## badger2 (Nov 25, 2021)

Flopper said:


> Testing, quarantining, with contact tracing has proved very effective.  In fact, South Korea made it their primary response to the alpha variant in March 2020 with great results.  It works extremely well when the number of cases are small relative to the size of the testing, quarantining, and contact tracing effort.   In South Korea when there was less than a few hundred known cases and tens of thousands of workers assigned to the effort, the number new cases dropped to nearly zero.  However when the delta variant hit, the transmission rate was so high, this strategy simply required more resources than they had.
> 
> Once you have hundreds thousands of cases,  the effort becomes so great that you can not contain the epidemic.  It simple becomes another method of reducing the spread, like mask wearing and social distancing.   Had the US had the resources in place in March 2020, we could have controlled the spread of alpha variant.


No, Alpha variant, don’t think so. Chinese communists knew that human traffic moving out of Wuhan and out of China would especially spread it, with every passing day the virus learning more about its new host, and doing what RNA viruses do, mutate. They knew it was circulating in the population in Sep or Oct 2019, already too late for preventing outbreaks. The virus had begun to learn about its host at that time.


----------



## badger2 (Nov 25, 2021)

It will eventually dawn on the prisoners that they should have demanded what they’re not being allowed to demand: a traditionally defined vaccine precise to the SARS-CoV-2 virus. A vaccine such as India’s Covaxin.


----------



## sparky (Nov 25, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> The main portion of the population who does not make health decisions based on *science* is the government.


which would be the same '_government_' sealing all that *science* for 55 yrs......

~S~


----------



## Flopper (Nov 26, 2021)

badger2 said:


> It will eventually dawn on the prisoners that they should have demanded what they’re not being allowed to demand: a traditionally defined vaccine precise to the SARS-CoV-2 virus. A vaccine such as India’s Covaxin.


Covaxin is a two dose vaccine with efficacy similar to the Johnson and Johnson vaccine but well below the mRNA vaccines. It is also a virus based vaccine which suffers from the same problem of all virus based vaccines, getting people to take a vaccine containing the virus. 

There is now about 5 vaccines being used against Covid.   There will probably be no agreement which is the best as they have slightly different pros and cons.  However, they have all been proven safe and effective for at least 6 months.


----------



## Flopper (Nov 26, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Those under 40 were at so little risk, that there were more than sufficient volunteers available.
> In fact, at spring break social gatherings like Daytona Beach, they had to arrest hundreds in order to prevent them from deliberately getting infected on their own.
> If you deliberately infect by injection, it is vastly superior because then you know who and when to quarantine those deliberately infected.
> 
> ...


Infecting people with a live virus knowing that a significant percentage are going to get sick and die might seem justified looking at the statistics but I seriously doubt that it would provide protection from the lawsuits and probably criminal prosecution which is one reason it would not happen.

All epidemics end due to herd immunity.  At the time of the Spanish Influenza pandemic, the cause, and preventive measures were unknown.  There were some that believed it was spread by an airborne pathogen, or through contact, poor quality food, or foul water. Although masks were used in some places, it was certainly not encouraged by governments and social distancing was staying away from those known to be sick, certainly not staying a prescribed distance from the general public.


----------



## ding (Nov 26, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> From the top, I am not "anti-vax". So please do not go there. I am posting this as a person with extensive knowledge in the medical field and simply posting empirical observations.
> 
> Modified RNA vaccines (mRNA) are designed to look for common parts of a virus. This makes creating a quick vaccine very easy but it also has negative problems that we are now having to deal with.
> 
> ...


Basically what you are saying is that once the mRNA "wears off" you are in no worse of a position than someone who never got the vaccine.  Is that correct?


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 26, 2021)

Flopper said:


> "What does an mRNA store to allow the immune system to identify covid in the future?
> The answer is there is nothing."
> 
> You are technically correct in saying an mRNA (vaccine) does not store anything in immune system memory because no vaccine stores anything immune system memory.  It is the bodies immune system reacting to a pathogen that creates  memory.  An yes the spike protein is recognized as a pathogen, otherwise there would be no antibody creation.
> ...



I don't see how the spike protein can be recognized by the immune system as a pathogen, because our own exosomes have to use the same spike proteins, in the exact same way, to access the ACE2 receptors in our cells.

Also all the variants have to use the same spike proteins, so then if these mRNA vaccines were real, then variants would also trigger the immune system just as well as the original virus.

Your quote said, "*demonstrate robust cellular immune memory to SARS-CoV-2 and variants for at least 6 months after mRNA vaccination."*
And that makes no sense.
If there really were immune memory responses, it would normally be lasting decades, not 6 months.
Some antibodies can live 6 months.
And with all the boosters, it is more likely the boosters are just stimulating antibody production.

But we won't have a definitive answer until we wait a year or so, and then compare recovery immunity with vaccine immunity.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 26, 2021)

Flopper said:


> If we deliberately infect by injection, then we know exactly who to blame for the resulting sickness and deaths.



When the vaccines kill tens of thousands as they do, we also know who to blame for that, but we give the vaccine companies immunity from law suits.


----------



## Bob Blaylock (Nov 26, 2021)

ding said:


> Basically what you are saying is that once the mRNA "wears off" you are in no worse of a position than someone who never got the vaccine.  Is that correct?



  We do not know that.  That is the best possible case for this mRNA shit.

  At this point, we have no basis on which to know what adverse long-term effects may manifest in people who were stupid enough to allow this shit to be injected into them.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 26, 2021)

Flopper said:


> Covaxin is a two dose vaccine with efficacy similar to the Johnson and Johnson vaccine but well below the mRNA vaccines. It is also a virus based vaccine which suffers from the same problem of all virus based vaccines, getting people to take a vaccine containing the virus.
> 
> There is now about 5 vaccines being used against Covid.   There will probably be no agreement which is the best as they have slightly different pros and cons.  However, they have all been proven safe and effective for at least 6 months.



At least 6 months is nothing.
What happens 5 years later if the mRNA injection starts causing our own immune system to start attacking our own exosomes.
The chances for an mRNA injection to morph into a deadly autoimmune disease is a million times higher than when a real virus is used.
What we need to know is if they have any useful effect AFTER 6 months.
It does not appear so.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 26, 2021)

Flopper said:


> Infecting people with a live virus knowing that a significant percentage are going to get sick and die might seem justified looking at the statistics but I seriously doubt that it would provide protection from the lawsuits and probably criminal prosecution which is one reason it would not happen.
> 
> All epidemics end due to herd immunity.  At the time of the Spanish Influenza pandemic, the cause, and preventive measures were unknown.  There were some that believed it was spread by an airborne pathogen, or through contact, poor quality food, or foul water. Although masks were used in some places, it was certainly not encouraged by governments and social distancing was staying away from those known to be sick, certainly not staying a prescribed distance from the general public.



Yes it would be safe from lawsuits just as vaccines that kill are also safe from lawsuits.
That is because deliberate infection would have killed more like 50,000 only, instead of the 750,000 that we killed by "flattening the curve".
It is "flattening the curve" that should get sued for deliberate murder.

And you are wrong about the Spanish flu.
Masks and social distancing were mandated by law, and thousands of resistors were jailed.
Of course I could not have lived through it in order to know, but my father did, and he described it in great detail.









						'A breaking point': Anti-lockdown efforts during Spanish flu offer a cautionary tale for coronavirus
					

Opposition to public health directives forced some cities to roll back orders too quickly.




					www.nbcnews.com
				



{...
During the Spanish flu era, officials pushing public health mandates to stop the pandemic in its tracks were met with pushback across the country. From San Francisco to Atlanta, Denver to Cleveland, pockets of opposition sprang up to decry the effects of the restrictions on businesses, religious communities and ordinary people.

...

"I think that human nature being what it is, people don't like to have their lives disrupted," said Alex Navarro, assistant director of the Center for the History of Medicine at the University of Michigan, which detailed historical accounts of the 1918-19 flu pandemic in 43 cities. "Initially, they might go along with it, but as these closure orders drag on and as people's lives continue to be fractured, there's a breaking point."
...
a vocal minority of San Franciscans risked going to jail rather than cover theirs face during the Spanish flu pandemic.

When the city began to require masks, residents largely complied, feeling a sense of duty that dovetailed with the patriotic solidarity of World War I. "The man or woman or child who will not wear a mask now is a dangerous slacker," a public service announcement from the American Red Cross said at the time.

But not everyone was on board. Hordes of scofflaws were caught not wearing or incorrectly wearing masks. More than 100 people were rounded up and charged with "disturbing the peace" shortly after the measure went into place and were fined $5 on one day in October. Most cases were dismissed, and the proceeds went to support the American Red Cross.

In another incident, a public health officer for the city shot and severely wounded a man for not wearing a mask in late October, the San Francisco Chronicle reported at the time.
...}


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 26, 2021)

ding said:


> Basically what you are saying is that once the mRNA "wears off" you are in no worse of a position than someone who never got the vaccine.  Is that correct?



No, the mRNA injection is so small that it does not stay in the muscle, and migrated instead.
Depending on where it ends up, you can die or need hands and feet amputated.
There are also unlimited, unknown, long term consequences.


----------



## ding (Nov 26, 2021)

Bob Blaylock said:


> We do not know that.  That is the best possible case for this mRNA shit.
> 
> At this point, we have no basis on which to know what adverse long-term effects may manifest in people who were stupid enough to allow this shit to be injected into them.


So you believe that by taking an mRNA vaccine that after it wears off that one is at a greater risk of getting covid compared to someone who has never had covid or gotten the vaccine?  Are you sure you understand how mRNA vaccines work?  Because I know how they work and there are no long term effects because the vaccine is only parts of the virus.  It isn't a living thing.  The worst thing that can happen is it wears off and you will be no worse off than had you never got one.  Of course I'm not convinced that the body forgets completely.  So I would expect reduced efficacy at the worst.


----------



## ding (Nov 26, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> No, the mRNA injection is so small that it does not stay in the muscle, and migrated instead.
> Depending on where it ends up, you can die or need hands and feet amputated.
> There are also unlimited, unknown, long term consequences.


Where are you getting this nonsense from?


----------



## meaner gene (Nov 26, 2021)

ding said:


> Where are you getting this nonsense from?


Conspiracy theory 101


----------



## ding (Nov 26, 2021)

meaner gene said:


> Conspiracy theory 101


It's insane.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 26, 2021)

ding said:


> So you believe that by taking an mRNA vaccine that after it wears off that one is at a greater risk of getting covid compared to someone who has never had covid or gotten the vaccine?  Are you sure you understand how mRNA vaccines work?  Because I know how they work and there are no long term effects because the vaccine is only parts of the virus.  It isn't a living thing.  The worst thing that can happen is it wears off and you will be no worse off than had you never got one.  Of course I'm not convinced that the body forgets completely.  So I would expect reduced efficacy at the worst.



Wrong.
The mRNA injections do not contain the virus or any virus parts.
They contain mRNA instructions for the ribosomes in our own cells, to start our own cells to start growing spike proteins.

And there are several problems with this strategy.
One is that the mRNA is so small it is not confined to the muscle injection site.
And depending on where it ends up, it has caused death or the need for amputation of hands or feet.
And additional means of death is that it has no quantity control, so can make so many spike proteins grow that you get a fatal autoimmune response.


----------



## ding (Nov 26, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Wrong.
> The mRNA injections do not contain the virus or any virus parts.
> They contain mRNA instructions for the ribosomes in our own cells, to start our own cells to start growing spike proteins.
> 
> ...


You don't know what you are talking about.


----------



## Bob Blaylock (Nov 26, 2021)

ding said:


> So you believe that by taking an mRNA vaccine that after it wears off that one is at a greater risk of getting covid compared to someone who has never had covid or gotten the vaccine?  Are you sure you understand how mRNA vaccines work?  Because I know how they work and there are no long term effects because the vaccine is only parts of the virus.  It isn't a living thing.  The worst thing that can happen is it wears off and you will be no worse off than had you never got one.  Of course I'm not convinced that the body forgets completely.  So I would expect reduced efficacy at the worst.



  If you're not smart enough to understand what I wrote, as I wrote it originally, then you're not going to be smart enough to understand any further attempt that I, or anyone else, might make to try to explain it to you.


----------



## ding (Nov 26, 2021)

Bob Blaylock said:


> If you're not smart enough to understand what I wrote, as I wrote it originally, then you're not going to be smart enough to understand any further attempt that I, or anyone else, might make to try to explain it to you.


I'm smart enough to know that an injection of parts of a virus which don't work as a virus are benign.  I'm also smart enough to know that this vaccine does not keep someone from getting this disease but works to lessen the severity of the infection and limit the subsequent damage to the lining of his organs because it gives the body's immune system a head start at recognizing and attacking the virus.  So it's self evident that IF the vaccine's efficacy goes to zero (an unlikely outcome) that that person is no worse off than anyone else who did not get the vaccine or covid.  But if YOU want to risk damaging your organs and possibly lowering your life span to get natural immunity, go for it.  Of course there's no guarantee that even natural immunity will keep someone from being infected because of the rate the virus is mutating.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 26, 2021)

ding said:


> Where are you getting this nonsense from?



Everywhere.
Besides the common anaphlaxtic shock from the mRNA vaccines, we are getting deadly inflammations in places like the heart and brain,









						‘We Made a Big Mistake’ — COVID Vaccine Spike Protein Travels From Injection Site, Can Cause Organ Damage
					

Via Children’s Health Defense COVID vaccine researchers had previously assumed mRNA COVID vaccines would behave like traditional vaccines. The vaccine’s spike protein — responsible for infect…



					www.theburningplatform.com
				




{...
‘We Made a Big Mistake’ — COVID Vaccine Spike Protein Travels From Injection Site, Can Cause Organ Damage​...
“We made a big mistake. We didn’t realize it until now,” said Byram Bridle, a viral immunologist and associate professor at University of Guelph, Ontario. “We thought the spike protein was a great target antigen, we never knew the spike protein itself was a toxin and was a pathogenic protein. So by vaccinating people we are inadvertently inoculating them with a toxin.”
...}









						Myocarditis-induced Sudden Death after BNT162b2 mRNA COVID-19 Vaccination in Korea: Case Report Focusing on Histopathological Findings - PubMed
					

We present autopsy findings of a 22-year-old man who developed chest pain 5 days after the first dose of the BNT162b2 mRNA vaccine and died 7 hours later. Histological examination of the heart revealed isolated atrial myocarditis, with neutrophil and histiocyte predominance. Immunohistochemical...




					pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				



{...
Myocarditis-induced Sudden Death after BNT162b2 mRNA COVID-19 Vaccination in Korea: Case Report Focusing on Histopathological Findings​...
We present autopsy findings of a 22-year-old man who developed chest pain 5 days after the first dose of the BNT162b2 mRNA vaccine and died 7 hours later. Histological examination of the heart revealed isolated atrial myocarditis, with neutrophil and histiocyte predominance. Immunohistochemical C4d staining revealed scattered single-cell necrosis of myocytes which was not accompanied by inflammatory infiltrates. Extensive contraction band necrosis was observed in the atria and ventricles. There was no evidence of microthrombosis or infection in the heart and other organs. The primary cause of death was determined to be myocarditis, causally-associated with the BNT162b2 vaccine.
...}


----------



## Bob Blaylock (Nov 26, 2021)

ding said:


> I'm smart enough to know that an injection of parts of a virus which don't work as a virus are benign.  I'm also smart enough to know that this vaccine does not keep someone from getting this disease but works to lessen the severity of the infection and limit the subsequent damage to the lining of his organs because it gives the body's immune system a head start at recognizing and attacking the virus.  So it's self evident that IF the vaccine's efficacy goes to zero (an unlikely outcome) that that person is no worse off than anyone else who did not get the vaccine or covid.  But if YOU want to risk damaging your organs and possibly lowering your life span to get natural immunity, go for it.  Of course there's no guarantee that even natural immunity will keep someone from being infected because of the rate the virus is mutating.



  Clearly, you're not nearly as smart as you think you are, if you find it so easy to believe some of the blatant lies that you are mindlessly parroting here.

  Anyway, I don't fell like trying to teach a pig to sing, right now.  Just go ahead and wallow in your ignorance and gullibility, blindly believing and obeying the lies that your masters are telling you to believe and obey.


----------



## ding (Nov 26, 2021)

Bob Blaylock said:


> Clearly, you're not nearly as smart as you think you are, if you find it so easy to believe some of the blatant lies that you are mindlessly parroting here.
> 
> Anyway, I don't fell like trying to teach a pig to sing, right now.  Just go ahead and wallow in your ignorance and gullibility, blindly believing and obeying the lies that your masters are telling you to believe and obey.


I'm reading published papers.  How big do you think this conspiracy is?  

No one is out to get you.  Look, don't get the vaccine.  Roll the dice.  I couldn't be happier for you.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 26, 2021)

ding said:


> I'm smart enough to know that an injection of parts of a virus which don't work as a virus are benign.  I'm also smart enough to know that this vaccine does not keep someone from getting this disease but works to lessen the severity of the infection and limit the subsequent damage to the lining of his organs because it gives the body's immune system a head start at recognizing and attacking the virus.  So it's self evident that IF the vaccine's efficacy goes to zero (an unlikely outcome) that that person is no worse off than anyone else who did not get the vaccine or covid.  But if YOU want to risk damaging your organs and possibly lowering your life span to get natural immunity, go for it.  Of course there's no guarantee that even natural immunity will keep someone from being infected because of the rate the virus is mutating.



Wrong.
There is no covid vaccine made with parts of a virus.
The mRNA vaccines contain no parts of any virus.
They contain synthetic mRNA instruction that once inside your cells, cause your own cells to start growing spike proteins.
And anyone should be able to realize how risky that idea is.

And covid does NOT do anything to organs at all.
Look up cytokine storm, and understand how the immune system itself can over react, and that is what is causing all the damage.

And do not use the word "mutate" to describe the process producing variants.
Variants happen when more than one virus injects is RNA into the same cell, and you get combinations,
That is not at all like a random mutation, and mutations take on the order of 10k years, not the months we are seeing.


----------



## ding (Nov 26, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Everywhere.
> Besides the common anaphlaxtic shock from the mRNA vaccines, we are getting deadly inflammations in places like the heart and brain,
> 
> 
> ...


I truly do hope you haven't gotten the vaccine yet.  If so, don't fall for their tricks.  Stick to your guns.  This is just a fake pandemic anyway.  Go out into big crowds.  Enjoy yourself.


----------



## ding (Nov 26, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Wrong.
> There is no covid vaccine made with parts of a virus.
> The mRNA vaccines contain no parts of any virus.
> They contain synthetic mRNA instruction that once inside your cells, cause your own cells to start growing spike proteins.
> ...


It's all a conspiracy.  It's just a fake pandemic anyway.  You are right to not get the jab.  Stick to your guns.


----------



## Flopper (Nov 26, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> I don't see how the spike protein can be recognized by the immune system as a pathogen, because our own exosomes have to use the same spike proteins, in the exact same way, to access the ACE2 receptors in our cells.
> 
> Also all the variants have to use the same spike proteins, so then if these mRNA vaccines were real, then variants would also trigger the immune system just as well as the original virus.
> 
> ...


Simple because the spike protein is a pathogen.  It does not naturally occur within the body and thus the body reacts with a response.  Part of that response is exosomes activating ACE2.


----------



## Flopper (Nov 26, 2021)

ding said:


> I truly do hope you haven't gotten the vaccine yet.  If so, don't fall for their tricks.  Stick to your guns.  This is just a fake pandemic anyway.  Go out into big crowds.  Enjoy yourself.


A pandemic that has killed over 5 million people in over a 140 countries would be considered a fake only by a lunatic   I certainly hope you follow your own advice.


----------



## meaner gene (Nov 26, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> One is that the mRNA is so small it is not confined to the muscle injection site.
> And depending on where it ends up, it has caused death or the need for amputation of hands or feet.











						SF woman who will have fingers amputated after nearly dying from COVID-19, still hesitant about vaccine
					

Doctors told Martha she had only a 10% chance of surviving. While in a coma, they considered amputating her legs after COVID-19 triggered a cluster of blood clots throughout her body.




					abc7news.com
				




SF woman who will have fingers amputated after nearly dying from COVID-19

The coronavirus ravaged Macia's body for months. Doctors explained to her that the virus triggered a cluster of blood clots throughout her body. The lack of oxygen and blood flow threatened her legs and arms. She says doctors considered amputating both of her legs while she was in a coma.

As to Martha Macias, she and her mother both survived, but were not entirely spared. Martha will have two fingers amputated.


----------



## Flopper (Nov 26, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> When the vaccines kill tens of thousands as they do, we also know who to blame for that, but we give the vaccine companies immunity from law suits.


And exactly how do you know that vaccines have killed tens of thousands.

COVID-19 has killed nearly 770,00 people in the U.S., and more than 5 million worldwide. The vaccines authorized in the U.S. have been shown to significantly reduce the likelihood of severe illness, hospitalization and death from COVID-19.

And no no conclusive  evidence has been found that a COVID-19 vaccine authorized in the U.S. caused any deaths, let alone tens of thousands.  There have been about 5 deaths that have been linked to the Johnson & Johnson vaccine out of over 60 million doses given.  These cases are still under study.  There has been no linkage of deaths in the US to mRNA vaccines after over 460 million doses given.


----------



## meaner gene (Nov 27, 2021)

ding said:


> I'm reading published papers.  How big do you think this conspiracy is?
> 
> No one is out to get you.  Look, don't get the vaccine.  Roll the dice.  I couldn't be happier for you.


Be careful with your use of sarcasm on people who seem to be immune.


----------



## meaner gene (Nov 27, 2021)

Flopper said:


> And no evidence has established that a COVID-19 vaccine authorized in the U.S. caused any deaths, let alone tens of thousands.  There have been about 5 deaths that have been linked to the Johnson & Johnson vaccine out of over 40 million doses given.  These cases are still under study


The problem of VAERES reporting is that it is an unfiltered database.  Anybody can enter an adverse reaction independent of an actual connection, but just falling within the same time frame.


----------



## eagle1462010 (Nov 27, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> Wrong.
> There is no covid vaccine made with parts of a virus.
> The mRNA vaccines contain no parts of any virus.
> They contain synthetic mRNA instruction that once inside your cells, cause your own cells to start growing spike proteins.
> ...







__





						Covaxin COVID-19 Vaccine
					

Covaxin (BBV152) (iNCOVACC, BBV154) is an inactivated COVID-19 vaccine produced by Bharat Biotech located in Pune, India.




					www.precisionvaccinations.com


----------



## eagle1462010 (Nov 27, 2021)

ding said:


> I truly do hope you haven't gotten the vaccine yet.  If so, don't fall for their tricks.  Stick to your guns.  This is just a fake pandemic anyway.  Go out into big crowds.  Enjoy yourself.


Best damned advice I've ever heard.  But hey.  Pissing in your pants like you is so in style now.  

Shove your vaccine up your ass..............Only one vaccine made is worth a damn if you ask me.  It's in India.

But even it is useless as the virus mutates.  It'a WACK A MOLE VACCINE GAME.  Injecting someone with a ALPHA VACCINE when we are NU is STUPIDITY.

Guess people like you don't understand why the Flu shot is yearly.

Anyways.  HIDE IN YOUR CLOSET.  ENJOY.


----------



## eagle1462010 (Nov 27, 2021)

ding said:


> It's all a conspiracy. It's just a fake pandemic anyway. You are right to not get the jab. Stick to your guns.


Corona has been around forever.  This is the 7th version of it.  Strain of it  to clarify.

So it's real .........the only question is did these assholes create this new strain in a lab.  Because it changes like the Flu.

The Flu shot is called a shot because it is only for one to 3 strains of the Flu.  Guessing which one your country will get next.  Covid is doing the same thing.  

But they have 100s of millions of vaccines left for the Alpha variant left.  So they need to sell them first before saying........HEY........HERE'S THE NEW JAB FOR NU.

Only problem is by then we are on variant ZULU


----------



## eagle1462010 (Nov 27, 2021)

meaner gene said:


> The problem of VAERES reporting is that it is an unfiltered database.  Anybody can enter an adverse reaction independent of an actual connection, but just falling within the same time frame.


excuses.  Most are reported by doctors as it has it classified by medical terminology that you have to google to know WTF they are.


----------



## sparky (Nov 27, 2021)

ding said:


> How big do you think this conspiracy is?





ding said:


> It's all a conspiracy.





Flopper said:


> There has been no linkage of deaths in the US to mRNA vaccines after over 460 million doses given.





meaner gene said:


> The problem of VAERES reporting is that it is an unfiltered database.



This is all i got to know about mrna>>>


*The FDA has asked a federal judge to make the public wait until the year 2076 to disclose all of the data and information it relied upon to license Pfizer’s COVID-19 vaccine. That is not a typo.  It wants 55 years to produce this information to the public.*

~S~


----------



## ding (Nov 27, 2021)

Flopper said:


> A pandemic that has killed over 5 million people in over a 140 countries would be considered a fake only by a lunatic   I certainly hope you follow your own advice.


I was being facetious.  Relax.


----------



## ding (Nov 27, 2021)

sparky said:


> This is all i got to know about mrna>>>
> 
> 
> *The FDA has asked a federal judge to make the public wait until the year 2076 to disclose all of the data and information it relied upon to license Pfizer’s COVID-19 vaccine. That is not a typo.  It wants 55 years to produce this information to the public.*
> ...


Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.  Let Darwin work.


----------



## ding (Nov 27, 2021)

eagle1462010 said:


> Best damned advice I've ever heard.  But hey.  Pissing in your pants like you is so in style now.
> 
> Shove your vaccine up your ass..............Only one vaccine made is worth a damn if you ask me.  It's in India.
> 
> ...


I couldn't be happier for you.   

Stupid is as stupid does.  You should throw an old fashioned covid party like mom's used to do with chicken pox.  That would really show me.


----------



## ding (Nov 27, 2021)

eagle1462010 said:


> Corona has been around forever.  This is the 7th version of it.  Strain of it  to clarify.
> 
> So it's real .........the only question is did these assholes create this new strain in a lab.  Because it changes like the Flu.
> 
> ...


They are out to get you.  You aren't paranoid.  They are trying to get in your pants.  Show them you aren't going to take it by contracting every strain of covid known to man and beast and become super immune man.


----------



## ding (Nov 27, 2021)

meaner gene said:


> Be careful with your use of sarcasm on people who seem to be immune.


That's good advice.  But the sooner they get to experience their predictable surprises the better off the world will be.


----------



## eagle1462010 (Nov 27, 2021)

ding said:


> They are out to get you.  You aren't paranoid.  They are trying to get in your pants.  Show them you aren't going to take it by contracting every strain of covid known to man and beast and become super immune man.


Nice Sarcasm.  Shove your sarcasm up your ass along with the vaccine.

You want to be their lab rat.  go ahead.  Enjoy the blood clots.


----------



## eagle1462010 (Nov 27, 2021)

ding said:


> I couldn't be happier for you.
> 
> Stupid is as stupid does.  You should throw an old fashioned covid party like mom's used to do with chicken pox.  That would really show me.


Sounds like you are terrified of it.  So get back under the bed.  and the evil boogeyman will not get you there.


----------



## ding (Nov 27, 2021)

eagle1462010 said:


> Nice Sarcasm.  Shove your sarcasm up your ass along with the vaccine.
> 
> You want to be their lab rat.  go ahead.  Enjoy the blood clots.


Dude, I'm on your side.  Seriously.  You should throw a covid party and show everyone how right you are.  Don't be a pussy.  Take it head on.  It's all fake anyway, right?


----------



## ding (Nov 27, 2021)

eagle1462010 said:


> Sounds like you are terrified of it.  So get back under the bed.  and the evil boogeyman will not get you there.


Yes, I'm not a big strong brave internet warrior like you.  You are my hero.  Go get you some fake covid.  You don't need any protection.


----------



## eagle1462010 (Nov 27, 2021)

ding said:


> Dude, I'm on your side.  Seriously.  You should throw a covid party and show everyone how right you are.  Don't be a pussy.  Take it head on.  It's all fake anyway, right?


LMAO

Corona has been around a long time.

Now put on your huggies so it doesn't puddle on the floor you poor thing.

2 years of fuckers like you playing the fear card...........while you are on your knees doing big pharma.  Your problem not mine.  Don't make it my problem


----------



## ding (Nov 27, 2021)

eagle1462010 said:


> LMAO
> 
> Corona has been around a long time.
> 
> ...


Have you gotten covid yet?


----------



## eagle1462010 (Nov 27, 2021)

ding said:


> Yes, I'm not a big strong brave internet warrior like you.  You are my hero.  Go get you some fake covid.  You don't need any protection.


LOL Protection.  The NEW DEFINITION OF VACCINE. 

So now.  When we fuck ......use a rubber ......I'M VACCINATED BABY.


----------



## eagle1462010 (Nov 27, 2021)

ding said:


> Have you gotten covid yet?


yes.  Even though it's none of your business.


----------



## ding (Nov 27, 2021)

eagle1462010 said:


> LOL Protection.  The NEW DEFINITION OF VACCINE.
> 
> So now.  When we fuck ......use a rubber ......I'M VACCINATED BABY.


God loves predictable surprises.  He created them.


----------



## ding (Nov 27, 2021)

eagle1462010 said:


> yes.  Even though it's none of your business.


That doesn't surprise me.  You should try to collect every variant.  You could be covidman.  The defender of freedoms everywhere.  People will sing songs about you.


----------



## eagle1462010 (Nov 27, 2021)

ding said:


> God loves predictable surprises.  He created them.


Is FAUCI a god.  Nice plannedemic we got here.

It's endemic now.  IDIOT.  Now the GLOBALIST will want to give you a jab every 6 months..  Coming to a Fascist gov't near you.


----------



## eagle1462010 (Nov 27, 2021)

ding said:


> That doesn't surprise me.  You should try to collect every variant.  You could be covidman.  The defender of freedoms everywhere.  People will sing songs about you.


LOL

Is this the last troll wins contest.  Oh well.  So go hide now.  The boogieman is after you.  Major can't save evryone.


----------



## ding (Nov 27, 2021)

eagle1462010 said:


> Is FAUCI a god.  Nice plannedemic we got here.
> 
> It's endemic now.  IDIOT.  Now the GLOBALIST will want to give you a jab every 6 months..  Coming to a Fascist gov't near you.


Don't let them convince you to take the jab.  Stand your ground.  Show the world how smart you are.  You could do late night TV and become a celebrity.


----------



## ding (Nov 27, 2021)

eagle1462010 said:


> LOL
> 
> Is this the last troll wins contest.  Oh well.  So go hide now.  The boogieman is after you.  Major can't save evryone.


This is just good fun.  Don't take it personal.  You are covidman.  Able to leap spike proteins in a single bound.  Let me hear you roar.


----------



## ding (Nov 27, 2021)

When someone is trying to off themselves, don't get in their way.  Let them do it.


----------



## eagle1462010 (Nov 27, 2021)

ding said:


> When someone is trying to off themselves, don't get in their way.  Let them do it.


Sorry.  Can't help you.  Your already took the jab.


----------



## ding (Nov 27, 2021)

eagle1462010 said:


> Sorry.  Can't help you.  Your already took the jab.


Twice.  Getting my first booster on Monday 

How many times have you gotten that fake disease?  

I bet the linings of your organs are like swiss cheese.


----------



## eagle1462010 (Nov 27, 2021)

ding said:


> Twice.  Getting my first booster on Monday
> 
> How many times have you gotten that fake disease?
> 
> I bet the linings of your organs are like swiss cheese.


Ok trolling one.  off to the abyss with you.


----------



## ding (Nov 27, 2021)

eagle1462010 said:


> Ok trolling one.  off to the abyss with you.


Don’t ever forget that this is all fake and they are trying to get into your pants. You are invincible. Collect every variant and prove to the world you are right.


----------



## sparky (Nov 27, 2021)

ding said:


> Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.





~S~


----------



## ding (Nov 27, 2021)

sparky said:


> View attachment 568938
> ~S~


Yes. It’s all a conspiracy to get into your pants and control your mind.


----------



## Flopper (Nov 27, 2021)

meaner gene said:


> The problem of VAERES reporting is that it is an unfiltered database.  Anybody can enter an adverse reaction independent of an actual connection, but just falling within the same time frame.


It actually is filtered.  The software checks for valid phone numbers addresses, emails f provided, and other required data.  There is also a check for multiple reports from the same person.  I don't know what criteria the CDC uses for pulling reports for analysis but I suspect they would pull those with the most serve symptoms for further study.


----------



## Flopper (Nov 27, 2021)

ding said:


> I was being facetious.  Relax.


I suspected that but considering some of the posts I wasn't sure.


----------



## Flopper (Nov 27, 2021)

eagle1462010 said:


> Is FAUCI a god.  Nice plannedemic we got here.
> 
> It's endemic now.  IDIOT.  Now the GLOBALIST will want to give you a jab every 6 months..  Coming to a Fascist gov't near you.


No, endemic means the disease is localized to certain areas or particular people.  We are a long way form endemic with over 150 countries still reporting active cases.


----------



## eagle1462010 (Nov 27, 2021)

Flopper said:


> No, endemic means the disease is localized to certain areas or particular people.  We are a long way form endemic with over 150 countries still reporting active cases.


Never ending cycle is what I meant   We are already at the letter o and the R rate is high.  

How are you going to contain that?  You will not.


----------



## Flopper (Nov 27, 2021)

eagle1462010 said:


> Never ending cycle is what I meant   We are already at the letter o and the R rate is high.
> 
> How are you going to contain that?  You will not.


I don't understand.  Are you referring to omicron variant?


----------



## L.K.Eder (Nov 27, 2021)

lol. dr billy boob, who cannot tell the difference between cytoplasm and cytokine, trying to lecture about immunology.


----------



## eagle1462010 (Nov 27, 2021)

Flopper said:


> I don't understand.  Are you referring to omicron variant?


yes.  New variants of it.  And more and more and more.  Never ending?  

en·dem·ic​ (en-dem'ik),
Denoting a temporal pattern of disease occurrence in a population in which the disease occurs with predictable regularity with only relatively minor fluctations in its frequency over time. Compare: epidemic, sporadic.
Synonym(s): enzootic
[G. _endēmos,_ native, fr. _en,_ in, + _dēmos,_ the people]


----------



## badger2 (Nov 27, 2021)

eagle1462010 said:


> Never ending cycle is what I meant   We are already at the letter o and the R rate is high.
> 
> How are you going to contain that?  You will not.


O is a variation of Delta. O causes mild cases according to Flutracker’s South African connection. Where are the R stats for O published?


----------



## Flopper (Nov 27, 2021)

eagle1462010 said:


> Never ending cycle is what I meant   We are already at the letter o and the R rate is high.
> 
> How are you going to contain that?  You will not.


We do not know the actual the transmission rate of the omicron variant, nor do we know how effective the the various vaccines will be against it.  It will be 3 or 4 weeks before we know the transmission rate and bout 2 weeks before we know how effective our vaccines will be against this new variant.

Keep in mind that the mu variant was reported a few months ago in South America and created much anxiety.  The transmission rate was estimated to be very high.  As it turned out the transmission rate was much less than the delta variant and it was no longer considered a variant of interest even though vaccines were slightly less effective against it. 

The coronavirus mutates more than most viruses so we will  be seeing many mutations of interest.  Since every time the the virus replicates which has to be at least trillions of  times a second, there is an opportunity for mutation.  Most of those mutation are no interest but occasion one occurs that is a potential threat.  The only way to reduce mutations is to reduce replications and the only what to do that is through vaccinations, masks, and social distancing.


----------



## eagle1462010 (Nov 27, 2021)

Flopper said:


> We do not know the actual the transmission rate of the omicron variant, nor do we know how effective the the various vaccines will be against it.  It will be 3 or 4 weeks before we know the transmission rate and bout 2 weeks before we know how effective our vaccines will be against this new variant.
> 
> Keep in mind that the mu variant was reported a few months ago in South America and created much anxiety.  The transmission rate was estimated to be very high.  As it turned out the transmission rate was much less than the delta variant and it was no longer considered a variant of interest even though vaccines were slightly less effective against it.
> 
> The coronavirus mutates more than most viruses so we will  be seeing many mutations of interest.  Since every time the the virus replicates which has to be at least trillions of  times a second, there is an opportunity for mutation.  Most of those mutation are no interest but occasion one occurs that is a potential threat.  The only way to reduce mutations is to reduce replications and the only what to do that is through vaccinations, masks, and social distancing.


My point is it has many variants already.  Since the Flu can't be contained .  How can we contain this?


----------



## eagle1462010 (Nov 27, 2021)

badger2 said:


> O is a variation of Delta. O causes mild cases according to Flutracker’s South African connection. Where are the R stats for O published?


I do not know yet.  Wasn't my point.  My point is will this be an endless wack a mole with this virus?


----------



## Flopper (Nov 27, 2021)

badger2 said:


> O is a variation of Delta. O causes mild cases according to Flutracker’s South African connection. Where are the R stats for O published?


There won't be any reliable data for at least two weeks.  I would be very suspicious of any information before then.  I heard that there were 40 mutations to the spike protein.  This is of real concern because the spike protein is an earmark of this virus and is what most of our vaccines depend on for identification by the immune system.


----------



## Flopper (Nov 27, 2021)

eagle1462010 said:


> My point is it has many variants already.  Since the Flu can't be contained .  How can we contain this?


Vaccines, masks, and social distancing. 
 We control the Flu virus by yearly vaccinations which are updated to new variants.  I wouldn't be surmised if we do this with coronavirus.  In fact there has been some talk of combining a yearly flu vaccine and a coronavirus vaccine.  Coronavirus is not going away anytime soon.  I expect it will be here for decades.   The herd immunity threshold for the delta variant is bout 95% vaccinated or having natural immunity and that is just not going to happen anytime soon.


----------



## eagle1462010 (Nov 27, 2021)

Flopper said:


> Vaccines, masks, and social distancing.
> We control the Flu virus by yearly vaccinations which are updated to new variants.  I wouldn't be surmised if we do this with coronavirus.  In fact there has been some talk of combining a yearly flu vaccine and a coronavirus vaccine.  Coronavirus is not going away anytime soon.  I expect it will be here for decades.   The herd immunity threshold for the delta variant is bout 95% vaccinated or having natural immunity and that is just not going to happen anytime soon.


Which was my point.  It's not going away.  And Delta will not be the last variant of concern.


----------



## badger2 (Nov 27, 2021)

Flopper said:


> We do not know the actual the transmission rate of the omicron variant, nor do we know how effective the the various vaccines will be against it.  It will be 3 or 4 weeks before we know the transmission rate and bout 2 weeks before we know how effective our vaccines will be against this new variant.
> 
> Keep in mind that the mu variant was reported a few months ago in South America and created much anxiety.  The transmission rate was estimated to be very high.  As it turned out the transmission rate was much less than the delta variant and it was no longer considered a variant of interest even though vaccines were slightly less effective against it.
> 
> The coronavirus mutates more than most viruses so we will  be seeing many mutations of interest.  Since every time the the virus replicates which has to be at least trillions of  times a second, there is an opportunity for mutation.  Most of those mutation are no interest but occasion one occurs that is a potential threat.  The only way to reduce mutations is to reduce replications and the only what to do that is through vaccinations, masks, and social distancing.


Vaccinations target only the spike, so the non-spike mutations now being added and that are being fear-mongered for Omicron/Nu are not applicable to vaccine arguments until the virus is inside the host, and the viral loads on the surface of mouths, throats, nasal passages, are also not applicable to vaccine arguments. Those viral loads are the same in both vaxxed and unvaxxed.


----------



## badger2 (Nov 27, 2021)

eagle1462010 said:


> Which was my point.  It's not going away.  And Delta will not be the last variant of concern.


Variants of concern should become less numerous as the virus weakens in the host.


----------



## eagle1462010 (Nov 27, 2021)

badger2 said:


> Variants of concern should become less numerous as the virus weakens in the host.


Hope so.  Unless the vaccines leak and cause worse variants.


----------



## Flopper (Nov 28, 2021)

eagle1462010 said:


> Which was my point.  It's not going away.  And Delta will not be the last variant of concern.


I agree.  Once a virus becomes a pandemic it is virtually impossible to completely eliminate it.   The virus that caused the Spanish Influenza, the H1N1 influenza A virus is still around today.  In fact, it has caused a number of pandemics killing millions of people. The flu vaccine was developed to protect against H1N1 A.  If enough people were vaccinated in the world, we could eliminate it as a source of epidemics but that will likely never happen.  In the US less than half the population get's the flu vaccine yearly and the percentage is much less for rest of world. 

SAR-Cov-2 may not be going away but we can reduce it's impact throughout the world with vaccines and antivirals such that people can return to more normal life.


----------



## Fort Fun Indiana (Nov 28, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> From the top, I am not "anti-vax". So please do not go there. I am posting this as a person with extensive knowledge in the medical field and simply posting empirical observations.
> 
> Modified RNA vaccines (mRNA) are designed to look for common parts of a virus. This makes creating a quick vaccine very easy but it also has negative problems that we are now having to deal with.
> 
> ...


mRNA vaccines are wildly successful. No vaccine will cover all variants, mRNA or otherwise.


----------



## Flopper (Nov 28, 2021)

badger2 said:


> Vaccinations target only the spike, so the non-spike mutations now being added and that are being fear-mongered for Omicron/Nu are not applicable to vaccine arguments until the virus is inside the host, and the viral loads on the surface of mouths, throats, nasal passages, are also not applicable to vaccine arguments. Those viral loads are the same in both vaxxed and unvaxxed.


The WHO monitors all reported variants classifying them in one of 3 categories, Variants of Interest, Variants of Concern, and Variants of High Consequence.   So far there is not sufficient data to classify the Omicron variant.  However, we do know that the Omicron variant has 30 to 40 mutations of the spike protein.   Whether it becomes an "also-run" or of major concern, depends on it's transmission rate relative to the delta variant and the effect of the spike mutations on efficacy of the vaccines.  If efficacy of vaccines drops significantly and the transmission rate is high, then we likely have updates to vaccines in 6 to 12 months.  The mRNA vaccines are said to to be easy to modify to account for spike protein mutations, not sure about the other vaccines.


----------



## badger2 (Nov 28, 2021)

Flopper said:


> I agree.  Once a virus becomes a pandemic it is virtually impossible to completely eliminate it.   The virus that caused the Spanish Influenza, the H1N1 influenza A virus is still around today.  In fact, it has caused a number of pandemics killing millions of people. The flu vaccine was developed to protect against H1N1 A.  If enough people were vaccinated in the world, we could eliminate it as a source of epidemics but that will likely never happen.  In the US less than half the population get's the flu vaccine yearly and the percentage is much less for rest of world.
> 
> SAR-Cov-2 may not be going away but we can reduce it's impact throughout the world with vaccines and antivirals such that people can return to more normal life.


We have already made an important influenza link in post #870:




__





						COVID-19’s Biological Politics
					





					www.usmessageboard.com


----------



## badger2 (Nov 28, 2021)

Flopper said:


> The WHO monitors all reported variants classifying them in one of 3 categories, Variants of Interest, Variants of Concern, and Variants of High Consequence.   So far there is not sufficient data to classify the Omicron variant.  However, we do know that the Omicron variant has 30 to 40 mutations of the spike protein.   Whether it becomes an "also-run" or of major concern, depends on it's transmission rate relative to the delta variant and the effect of the spike mutations on efficacy of the vaccines.  If efficacy of vaccines drops significantly and the transmission rate is high, then we likely have updates to vaccines in 6 to 12 months.  The mRNA vaccines are said to to be easy to modify to account for spike protein mutations, not sure about the other vaccines.


But there is sufficient data to expose the CDC changing mutations on its variants page according to WHO categorization, Einstein. One important location is position 417.


----------



## badger2 (Nov 28, 2021)

Flopper said:


> There won't be any reliable data for at least two weeks.  I would be very suspicious of any information before then.  I heard that there were 40 mutations to the spike protein.  This is of real concern because the spike protein is an earmark of this virus and is what most of our vaccines depend on for identification by the immune system.


34 mutations. And we refuse to wait for more propaganda. Analysis and critique is already underway on another thread.


----------



## Flopper (Nov 28, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> From the top, I am not "anti-vax". So please do not go there. I am posting this as a person with extensive knowledge in the medical field and simply posting empirical observations.
> 
> Modified RNA vaccines (mRNA) are designed to look for common parts of a virus. This makes creating a quick vaccine very easy but it also has negative problems that we are now having to deal with.
> 
> ...


Not to discredit your post, but mRNA means messenger RNA not modified RNA.


----------



## badger2 (Nov 28, 2021)

eagle1462010 said:


> I do not know yet.  Wasn't my point.  My point is will this be an endless wack a mole with this virus?


If O is a variation of Delta and O causes a mild infection, then increased transmissibility argues against endless whack a mole.


----------



## Flopper (Nov 28, 2021)

Fort Fun Indiana said:


> mRNA vaccines are wildly successful. No vaccine will cover all variants, mRNA or otherwise.


One of the major selling feature mRNA vaccines is that they can be easy modified to reflect mutations in the spike protein.  In fact the Pfizer vaccine is a modification of the lipid nanoparticles vaccine that went into clinical trials in 2015.  The ability to easily modify the vaccine was important because it was well known that the coronavirus family of viruses have a high rate of mutations.  A need for an update would come as no surprise to the vaccine developers.
The tangled history of mRNA vaccines


----------



## Flopper (Nov 28, 2021)

badger2 said:


> If O is a variation of Delta and O causes a mild infection, then increased transmissibility argues against endless whack a mole.


That maybe true, but it is too early to make that assumption.


----------



## boedicca (Nov 28, 2021)

The Vaxxes are not vaccines.  They are experimental gene altering mRNA treatments. Such treatments have failed when tested on animals, which is why humans are now the lab rat population.


----------



## eagle1462010 (Nov 28, 2021)

What we need are Better Treatment options that don't cost an arm and a leg to get like other countries.  Everything I've read says EARLY TREATMENT IS KEY  to Covid.  Countries like India did this and gave them out for free so they could take them right  away without the BS   And their deaths dropped dramatically.

Why ISN'T THIS BEING DONE HERE?


----------



## Billy_Bob (Nov 28, 2021)

Flopper said:


> Not to discredit your post, but mRNA means messenger RNA not modified RNA.


Modification of the messenger....   IE: Spike proteins.


----------



## Billy_Bob (Nov 28, 2021)

eagle1462010 said:


> What we need are Better Treatment options that don't cost an arm and a leg to get like other countries.  Everything I've read says EARLY TREATMENT IS KEY  to Covid.  Countries like India did this and gave them out for free so they could take them right  away without the BS   And their deaths dropped dramatically.
> 
> Why ISN'T THIS BEING DONE HERE?


We have Big Pharma donating to campaigns.  These politicians block the use of cheap drugs that work so that the more expensive big pharma choices are used.. Follow the money...  This needs to stop..


----------



## badger2 (Nov 28, 2021)

Flopper said:


> True, but it is too early to make that assumption.


That was a speculation, an observation. And it’s ok to do that.


----------



## badger2 (Nov 28, 2021)

badger2 said:


> That was a speculation, an observation. And it’s ok to do that.


Wating for the Unicron?


----------



## badger2 (Nov 28, 2021)

Flopper said:


> One of the major selling feature mRNA vaccines is that they can be easy modified to reflect mutations in the spike protein.  In fact the Pfizer vaccine is a modification of the lipid nanoparticles vaccine that went into clinical trials in 2015.  The ability to easily modify the vaccine was important because it was well known that the coronavirus family of viruses have a high rate of mutations.  A need for an update would come as no surprise to the vaccine developers.
> The tangled history of mRNA vaccines


That’s no reason to add non-spike Omicron mutations to scare little boys and girls with the communist virus. Besides, the mRNA vaccine is extremely dubious being used in immature immune systems.


----------



## badger2 (Nov 28, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> Modification of the messenger....   IE: Spike proteins.


It is still too early to tell what other mRNA gets modified in little children when the cells are commanded to make Chinese communist virus parts.


----------



## Flopper (Nov 28, 2021)

eagle1462010 said:


> What we need are Better Treatment options that don't cost an arm and a leg to get like other countries.  Everything I've read says EARLY TREATMENT IS KEY  to Covid.  Countries like India did this and gave them out for free so they could take them right  away without the BS   And their deaths dropped dramatically.
> 
> Why ISN'T THIS BEING DONE HERE?


Pfizer appears to have a good one but it is not approved yet.  There are also several more in the pipeline. 

There are several problems with antivirals. First, antivirals don’t eradicate the viruses directly.  They just stop them from spreading for while and it's up to the immune system to finish the job and eradicate it from the body.  This is why antivirals must be started very early otherwise they will not be very effective.  Also, creating them is tricky and it takes a lot of research.  So unless there is a large market, the cost will be very high. There is also another problem with covid.  Since it spreads rapidly, the antiviral has to be administered when symptoms are mild which usually means before hospitalization, possibly at time of a positive test.


----------



## eagle1462010 (Nov 29, 2021)

Flopper said:


> Pfizer appears to have a good one but it is not approved yet.  There are also several more in the pipeline.
> 
> There are several problems with antivirals. First, antivirals don’t eradicate the viruses directly.  They just stop them from spreading for while and it's up to the immune system to finish the job and eradicate it from the body.  This is why antivirals must be started very early otherwise they will not be very effective.  Also, creating them is tricky and it takes a lot of research.  So unless there is a large market, the cost will be very high. There is also another problem with covid.  Since it spreads rapidly, the antiviral has to be administered when symptoms are mild which usually means before hospitalization, possibly at time of a positive test.


"They are using cheap drugs and vitamins in other places.  And the HORSE DEWORMER ........lol......that Ivermectin has been given to about 4 billion people.  That with doxycycline and zinc is one such remedy.  And in these places their deaths per million are small compared to us.


----------



## Flopper (Nov 29, 2021)

eagle1462010 said:


> "They are using cheap drugs and vitamins in other places.  And the HORSE DEWORMER ........lol......that Ivermectin has been given to about 4 billion people.  That with doxycycline and zinc is one such remedy.  And in these places their deaths per million are small compared to us.


Doxycycline is used to treat bacterial infections.  It has no effect on viruses.  However, it is used sometimes to prevent bacterial infections accompanying some viruses.   There’s some evidence that zinc helps your body fight a cold, but there is no evidence that zinc will prevent or cure corvid.  The only medication that has proven effective against viruses are anti-virals and most anti-virals only stop the virus from replicating.  The immune system sill has eradicate the virus.


----------



## Flopper (Nov 30, 2021)

eagle1462010 said:


> "They are using cheap drugs and vitamins in other places.  And the HORSE DEWORMER ........lol......that Ivermectin has been given to about 4 billion people.  That with doxycycline and zinc is one such remedy.  And in these places their deaths per million are small compared to us.


Ivermectin is used to treat parasites in both humans and animals.  It is approved by the FDA for treatment of parasites' in the colon.  The most common use is heartworms in cats and dogs. 

If a hundred people with covid took Ivermectin, 85 would be cured.  If hundred people with covid took nothing 85 would be cured.  However those that took Ivermectin would get rid their Heartworms. 

After a over a hundred years of modern medicine, people are still drinking horse liniment for arthritis, parasite medicines for viruses, tapeworms to lose weight, and radium water for general health.


----------



## theHawk (Nov 30, 2021)

Otis Mayfield said:


> Never met someone on the forum who is as wrong as you.
> 
> And you profess to be an expert. lol


This video had literally nothing to do with mRNA vaccines and did not address the concerns raised by the OP.  You are seriously mentally challenged.


----------



## theHawk (Nov 30, 2021)

Billy_Bob said:


> From the top, I am not "anti-vax". So please do not go there. I am posting this as a person with extensive knowledge in the medical field and simply posting empirical observations.
> 
> Modified RNA vaccines (mRNA) are designed to look for common parts of a virus. This makes creating a quick vaccine very easy but it also has negative problems that we are now having to deal with.
> 
> ...



Which is why I am waiting for the traditional vaccines.  A few are being made by some Indian companies, and are going through the process for FDA approval.  The FDA is dragging it’s feet on them though, since the FDA is in bed with Pfizer and Moderna.


----------



## badger2 (Nov 30, 2021)

theHawk said:


> Which is why I am waiting for the traditional vaccines.  A few are being made by some Indian companies, and are going through the process for FDA approval.  The FDA is dragging it’s feet on them though, since the FDA is in bed with Pfizer and Moderna.


Americans should not wait for the unicorn. They should demand the actual entire virus, SARS-CoV-2 vaccine, not communist Chinese parts of the virus that seem to be ephemeral. They should boycott now.


----------



## badger2 (Nov 30, 2021)

When they boycott now, they show that the stick-and-carrot is not working to pacify them.


----------



## eagle1462010 (Nov 30, 2021)

Flopper said:


> Ivermectin is used to treat parasites in both humans and animals.  It is approved by the FDA for treatment of parasites' in the colon.  The most common use is heartworms in cats and dogs.
> 
> If a hundred people with covid took Ivermectin, 85 would be cured.  If hundred people with covid took nothing 85 would be cured.  However those that took Ivermectin would get rid their Heartworms.
> 
> After a over a hundred years of modern medicine, people are still drinking horse liniment for arthritis, parasite medicines for viruses, tapeworms to lose weight, and radium water for general health.


Tell that ti india then.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 30, 2021)

Flopper said:


> Simple because the spike protein is a pathogen.  It does not naturally occur within the body and thus the body reacts with a response.  Part of that response is exosomes activating ACE2.



Exosomes are messengers.
They are how the body tells cells to change what they are doing.
Such as to halt activity if the body is starving, increase reproduction if the body has been injured, etc.
Exosomes are floating information carriers the body produces to tell other parts of the body what is going on.

The way exosomes work is by using the single spike protein on their head, to cause an ACE2 receptor on a cell, to let them in.
Once the exosome spike protein has found an ACE2 receptor and inserted itself, then the ACE2 receptor will surround and absorb the exosome.

So not only do spike proteins naturally occur in the body, they are essential to the immune system itself.
Thus it is impossible for the immune system to remember or later trigger on spike proteins.
If it did, then we would die from the autoimmune disease of our immune system attacking our own exosomes.

Why do covid viruses and exosomes have the same spike proteins?
Because they have the same use for them, which is to activate the ACE2 receptors.
How did covid viruses learn how to mimic exosome spike proteins?
Likely because covid viruses once were exosomes, and that is how they started out.

Here is an image of a generic cell, with both exosome spike protein receptors on the left, and exosome generators on the right.
Clearly you can see the body does and must generate its own spike proteins.  The whole exosome messenger system depends on our own production of spike proteins.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 30, 2021)

Flopper said:


> A pandemic that has killed over 5 million people in over a 140 countries would be considered a fake only by a lunatic   I certainly hope you follow your own advice.



It is fake if it could easily have been ended long ago, and instead is being carefully kept viable by deliberately preventing herd immunity.
There are many different possible strategies that can end any epidemic very quickly.
One extreme is totally quarantine, the opposite extreme is deliberate variolation of enough for herd immunity.
But "flattening the curve" is neither.
It is some wishy washy mixture in the middle, that can not possibly work.
By not doing full quarantine with contact tracing, then "flattening the curve" still has a reproduction rate over 1.0.
So then time is bad.
The epidemic is still growing.
So it then constantly gets worse instead of better.
Whether there are waves, spikes, valleys, etc., is irrelevant.
The over all is you end up with more people infected over time, and you accomplish nothing but kill more people for no reason.

One of the more extreme strategies is infinitely better because they are quick and absolute.
They end any epidemic quickly, so then have much smaller death totals.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 30, 2021)

Flopper said:


> And exactly how do you know that vaccines have killed tens of thousands.
> 
> COVID-19 has killed nearly 770,00 people in the U.S., and more than 5 million worldwide. The vaccines authorized in the U.S. have been shown to significantly reduce the likelihood of severe illness, hospitalization and death from COVID-19.
> 
> And no no conclusive  evidence has been found that a COVID-19 vaccine authorized in the U.S. caused any deaths, let alone tens of thousands.  There have been about 5 deaths that have been linked to the Johnson & Johnson vaccine out of over 60 million doses given.  These cases are still under study.  There has been no linkage of deaths in the US to mRNA vaccines after over 460 million doses given.



All vaccines kill thousands.
If nothing else, anaphylaxis shock is common enough to be correlated.
And all reports tell us these mRNA vaccine are at least 10 times more deadly than any previous vaccine.
Gross death reports after mRNA vax in the US is over 20k.
At least half of which are likely real.

Vaccine deaths generally are worth it because the disease is much more dangerous.
But the reality is for people under 40, covid risk is insignificant, and on a similar par to the mRNA vaccines in risk.

Again, these mRNA vaccine do not appear to be showing any memory at all.
They are dropping in effectiveness about 30% per month, so it seems likely all they are doing is stimulating antibody production.
And when the antibodies die off, you are left with nothing.
You keep claiming spike proteins are always foreign pathogens, and you have to know that is wrong, because our own cells would not have ACE2 receptors to let in foreign pathogens.
Our own exosomes have to use the same spike proteins for ACE2 receptor access.
That is what ACE2 receptors are for, our own exosome spike proteins.

My own personal experience proves you are wrong.
After 12 hours, the 2nd Moderna vax caused such sever convulsive shivering, that I could not even stand, much less walk.
Throwing up ever 4 hours then for a day, is not at all normal.
The weakness, fever, headaches, fog, etc. lasted over 3 weeks.
It was the worst illness of my life.
I have never had anything nearly as bad as the 2nd Moderna booster.
That is not at all what a vaccine should be like, and it certainly was not safe or benign.
If I had not been in the peak of health, it could easily have killed me.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 30, 2021)

eagle1462010 said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, now there are actual covid vaccines made with actual covid virus parts.
The covid vaccine Covaxin from India is real.
I believe Sinovax from China is also a real vaccine.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 30, 2021)

ding said:


> I'm reading published papers.  How big do you think this conspiracy is?
> 
> No one is out to get you.  Look, don't get the vaccine.  Roll the dice.  I couldn't be happier for you.



With profits of over $3 trillion from the covid vaccines and tests, how could the conspiracy NOT be huge?
If we did not already have a huge conspiracy to manipulate health care in the US, over huge profits, then there would be no for profit health insurance, and we would have public health care, like the rest of the world.
The fact we still have for profit health insurance, is totally insane, irrational, and clearly totally corrupt.
People should be handing from the lamp posts for such evil.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 30, 2021)

Flopper said:


> And exactly how do you know that vaccines have killed tens of thousands.
> 
> COVID-19 has killed nearly 770,00 people in the U.S., and more than 5 million worldwide. The vaccines authorized in the U.S. have been shown to significantly reduce the likelihood of severe illness, hospitalization and death from COVID-19.
> 
> And no no conclusive  evidence has been found that a COVID-19 vaccine authorized in the U.S. caused any deaths, let alone tens of thousands.  There have been about 5 deaths that have been linked to the Johnson & Johnson vaccine out of over 60 million doses given.  These cases are still under study.  There has been no linkage of deaths in the US to mRNA vaccines after over 460 million doses given.



The CDC clearly admits thousands of covid vax deaths in the US.








						COVID-19 Vaccination
					

COVID-19 vaccines protect against COVID-19. Get safety info and more.




					www.cdc.gov
				



The VAERS death reports are "selected", meaning they HAVE been filtered to remove things like car accidents of other deaths for sure not related.
And actually, the real death rates from the vaccines likely are way UNDER reported, since it takes a family member to even know the person was even vaccinated and that they should bother reporting it to VAERS, if they even know how to.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 30, 2021)

meaner gene said:


> The problem of VAERES reporting is that it is an unfiltered database.  Anybody can enter an adverse reaction independent of an actual connection, but just falling within the same time frame.



No, VAERS is filtered, when you see the CDC saying they are posting "selected" results from VAERS.
All data is always filtered before publication.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 30, 2021)

Flopper said:


> Doxycycline is used to treat bacterial infections.  It has no effect on viruses.  However, it is used sometimes to prevent bacterial infections accompanying some viruses.   There’s some evidence that zinc helps your body fight a cold, but there is no evidence that zinc will prevent or cure corvid.  The only medication that has proven effective against viruses are anti-virals and most anti-virals only stop the virus from replicating.  The immune system sill has eradicate the virus.



But you are forgetting that the problem with covid is not the virus, but only the immune system over reaction, the cytokine storm.
The goal of treatments like Fluvoxamine or Quinine, is not to kill the virus but to suppress the fatal autoimmune response.


----------



## ding (Nov 30, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> With profits of over $3 trillion from the covid vaccines and tests, how could the conspiracy NOT be huge?
> If we did not already have a huge conspiracy to manipulate health care in the US, over huge profits, then there would be no for profit health insurance, and we would have public health care, like the rest of the world.
> The fact we still have for profit health insurance, is totally insane, irrational, and clearly totally corrupt.
> People should be handing from the lamp posts for such evil.


3 trillion, huh.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 30, 2021)

ding said:


> 3 trillion, huh.



From memory, and mistaken.
Now that I look it up again, each company is making more like only $30 billion or so.









						Covid-19 vaccines: the contracts, prices and profits
					

Raised charges and Covax deals on order books of Pfizer, BioNTech, Moderna and AstraZeneca




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Flopper (Nov 30, 2021)

theHawk said:


> Which is why I am waiting for the traditional vaccines.  A few are being made by some Indian companies, and are going through the process for FDA approval.  The FDA is dragging it’s feet on them though, since the FDA is in bed with Pfizer and Moderna.


I think the Pfizer vaccine and the Moderna vaccine will prove to be safest and most effective .  Since they are mRNA vaccinates tweaking them for protection of new variants should be very easy.  Moderna said they could have a new vaccine ready by the new year.  The downside is that these vaccines require two doses and very low temperature storage.

All the vaccines being used are based on either new technologies  or have been been complete reworked for Covid.  ZyCoV-D, the new vaccine from India is the first DNA vaccine to be given two humans.  Of 6 the vaccines in use today, 4 of them create the spike protein. There is nothing really traditional about any of these vaccines.  They all end up doing the same thing, they just do it a bit differently.   Traditional viral vaccines used live or attenuated viruses.  None of these do.


----------



## Rigby5 (Nov 30, 2021)

Flopper said:


> I think the Pfizer vaccine and the Moderna vaccine will prove to be safest and most effective .  Since they are mRNA vaccinates tweaking them for protection of new variants should be very easy.  Moderna said they could have a new vaccine ready by the new year.  The downside is that these vaccines require two doses and very low temperature storage.
> 
> All the vaccines being used are based on either new technologies  or have been been complete reworked for Covid.  ZyCoV-D, the new vaccine from India is the first DNA vaccine to be given two humans.  Of 6 the vaccines in use today, 4 of them create the spike protein. There is nothing really traditional about any of these vaccines.  They all end up doing the same thing, they just do it a bit differently.   Traditional viral vaccines used live or attenuated viruses.  None of these do.



The covid vaccine made by India is call Covaxin, does use actual covid virus, and is NOT an mRNA vax,
Same with the Chinese Sinovac.
The US and Germany are the only countries to NOT use an actual virus, and in my opinion, the mRNA injections are total and complete failures.

There is no way or need to tweak any mRNA injection for a variant because they do not have a virus, so there is nothing to compare against.
They only produce a spike protein, and that can't change with variants, or else they would not work in the ACE2 receptors.


----------



## Flopper (Nov 30, 2021)

ding said:


> 3 trillion, huh.


Phizer raised revenue estimate this year to 36 billion.  However other companies may eventfully bypass Pfizer.  The Pfizer vaccine, a two dose vaccine that requires  extremely low storage temperatures requires special equipment at the vaccination site, storage depots, and special transportation.  That is not a serious problem in a well developed countries such as US who have deep pockets but that can be a problem is less developed countries.  

One vaccine that may eventually own the market abroad is a new vaccine being developed in India, ZyCoV-D.  It is a DNA vaccine the first to be used with humans.  It does not require any special refrigeration.  It is a needleless application and administered similar to insulin.  This means no sore arms and, practically no side effects, plus it can be self administered.  It's efficacy is not quite as good as the mRNA vaccines and there are 3 injections required in each unit.  What makes this ideal for most countries is that it's per unit cost is much less than the mRNA vaccines.   This might be what tips the scales and ends the pandemic.


----------



## Flopper (Nov 30, 2021)

Rigby5 said:


> The covid vaccine made by India is call Covaxin, does use actual covid virus, and is NOT an mRNA vax,
> Same with the Chinese Sinovac.
> The US and Germany are the only countries to NOT use an actual virus, and in my opinion, the mRNA injections are total and complete failures.
> 
> ...


I was referring to 4 vaccines that create the spike protein. 

Tweeting the mRNA vaccine would mean changing the messaging that creates the spike protein so it incorporating some of the mutations needed to create better recognition by T and B cells.  I say that it is easy because Moderna said that if needed they could have a new vaccine ready by the first of year.  To change a traditional vaccine would certainly take much longer.  This is done with the flu vaccine which generally takes years not months.  The easy updating of mRNA vaccines is one of major selling points.


----------



## Flopper (Nov 30, 2021)

badger2 said:


> When they boycott now, they show that the stick-and-carrot is not working to pacify them.


I don't thing you have to worry about it.  The FDA is not going to give their approval anytime soon.


----------



## theHawk (Nov 30, 2021)

Flopper said:


> I think the Pfizer vaccine and the Moderna vaccine will prove to be safest and most effective .  Since they are mRNA vaccinates tweaking them for protection of new variants should be very easy.  Moderna said they could have a new vaccine ready by the new year.  The downside is that these vaccines require two doses and very low temperature storage.
> 
> All the vaccines being used are based on either new technologies  or have been been complete reworked for Covid.  ZyCoV-D, the new vaccine from India is the first DNA vaccine to be given two humans.  Of 6 the vaccines in use today, 4 of them create the spike protein. There is nothing really traditional about any of these vaccines.  They all end up doing the same thing, they just do it a bit differently.   Traditional viral vaccines used live or attenuated viruses.  None of these do.


Wrong, Covaxin is an inactive virus vaccine.


----------



## Weatherman2020 (Dec 12, 2021)

Otis Mayfield said:


> No, vaccines give your immune system the secrete to finding and defeating the virus.


My body my choice.


----------



## KissMy (Dec 15, 2021)




----------



## LordBrownTrout (Dec 15, 2021)

KissMy said:


>



More lies and misinfo coming from the CDC.


----------



## sealybobo (Apr 27, 2022)

LordBrownTrout said:


> More lies and misinfo coming from the CDC.


Some con here said the South Korean got the same vaccine we got.  WRONG.  Also, did you know less than 10% of them got the booster?  That's why the spike in cases.


----------



## Weatherman2020 (Apr 27, 2022)

sealybobo said:


> Some con here said the South Korean got the same vaccine we got.  WRONG.  Also, did you know less than 10% of them got the booster?  That's why the spike in cases.


Get 4 shots. Ask Kamala how good it works.


----------



## LordBrownTrout (Apr 27, 2022)

sealybobo said:


> Some con here said the South Korean got the same vaccine we got.  WRONG.  Also, did you know less than 10% of them got the booster?  That's why the spike in cases.



And then more lies coming from the cdc and fda.









						CDC and FDA 'altered' Covid guidance while under pressure, report
					

Federal investigators spoke to more than two dozen top-level directors and managers who worked at the agencies behind the country's public health guidance that aimed to keep Americans safe.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## Lesh (Apr 27, 2022)

LordBrownTrout said:


> And then more lies coming from the cdc and fda.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


BY THE TRUMP ADMIN

Retards


----------



## LordBrownTrout (Apr 27, 2022)

Lesh said:


> BY THE TRUMP ADMIN
> 
> Retards



No, they all had agendas and were all lying.  Remember, orange man pushed the snake injection and tens of millions lined up for it.


----------



## Lesh (Apr 27, 2022)

LordBrownTrout said:


> No, they all had agendas and were all lying.  Remember, orange man pushed the snake injection and tens of millions lined up for it.


You provided a link complaining that the CDC and NIH had succumbed to political pressure...and THAT link noted that the political interference came from ...yea...the *Trump Admin*


----------



## eagle1462010 (Apr 27, 2022)

Lesh said:


> You provided a link complaining that the CDC and NIH had succumbed to political pressure...and THAT link noted that the political interference came from ...yea...the *Trump Admin*


They couldn't pour pee out of a boot with the instructions written on the heal.

But they do know how to appease pharma and get filthy rich off Moonbats like you.


----------



## sealybobo (Apr 28, 2022)

LordBrownTrout said:


> And then more lies coming from the cdc and fda.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why are you posting news from a tabloid?  It would be like me showing you stuff from the National Enquirer.

And isn't the CDC and FDA both American organizations?  The Daily Mail is a UK tabloid.  Doesn't the UK have their own version of the CDC and FDA?


----------



## sealybobo (Apr 28, 2022)

LordBrownTrout said:


> And then more lies coming from the cdc and fda.
> 
> 
> 
> ...











						‘We Are Turning The Corner On The Coronavirus,’ Says Biden As Giant Looming Covid-19 Particle Touches Down On D.C.
					

WASHINGTON—Stressing that Americans could finally begin returning to their regular lives, President Joe Biden announced during  State of the Union address Tuesday that the country was turning the corner on the coronavirus, just as a gargantuan Covid-19 particle touched down on Washington, D.C...




					www.theonion.com


----------



## LordBrownTrout (Apr 28, 2022)

sealybobo said:


> Why are you posting news from a tabloid?  It would be like me showing you stuff from the National Enquirer.
> 
> And isn't the CDC and FDA both American organizations?  The Daily Mail is a UK tabloid.  Doesn't the UK have their own version of the CDC and FDA?



It came from the GAO and was reported by the UK paper.  Here it is at another site.  I know, I know............you need the material to be regurgitated from one of the lib propaganda tokyo rose rags.  My apologies, sealy.









						CDC and FDA 'altered' Covid guidance while under pressure, bombshell report claims - Washington News Post
					

CDC and FDA officials 'altered' Covid guidance and even 'suppressed' findings related to the virus due to political pressure, a bombshell report




					washingtonnewspost.com


----------



## SweetSue92 (Apr 29, 2022)

sealybobo said:


> Why are you posting news from a tabloid?  It would be like me showing you stuff from the National Enquirer.
> 
> And isn't the CDC and FDA both American organizations?  The Daily Mail is a UK tabloid.  Doesn't the UK have their own version of the CDC and FDA?



Because for now the American press won't cover the fallout from these shots.

However at this rate this won't last much longer. It can't be kept quiet for much longer at all. The only thing that has kept it muted til now is the deluge of other bad news: inflation, gas prices, Ukraine. Hard to know if that's on purpose. But even so. All these 20s/30s people having heart attacks?? Not much longer.


----------



## Burgermeister (Apr 29, 2022)

The state of health science today is such that the loudest opinion wins.


----------



## sealybobo (Apr 29, 2022)

SweetSue92 said:


> Because for now the American press won't cover the fallout from these shots.
> 
> However at this rate this won't last much longer. It can't be kept quiet for much longer at all. The only thing that has kept it muted til now is the deluge of other bad news: inflation, gas prices, Ukraine. Hard to know if that's on purpose. But even so. All these 20s/30s people having heart attacks?? Not much longer.


Certainly there is a conservative press in America that is covering the fallout from these shots???  Or are you being a conspiracy theorist now?


----------



## Burgermeister (Apr 30, 2022)

From a study of data from Israel, one of the most vaxxed countries in the world - 



> Moreover, it underscores the need for the thorough investigation of the apparent association between COVID-19 vaccine administration and adverse cardiovascular outcomes among young adults. Israel and other countries should immediately collect the data necessary to determine whether such association indeed exists, including thorough investigation of individual CA and ACS cases in young adults, and their potential connection to the vaccine or other factors. This would be critical to better understanding the risk-benefits of the vaccine and to inform related public policy and prevent potentially avoidable patient harm. In the interim, it is vital that following vaccination, patients should be instructed to seek appropriate emergency care if they are experiencing symptoms potentially associated with myocarditis, such as chest discomfort and shortness of breath, as well as consider avoiding strenuous physical activity following the vaccination that may induce severe adverse cardiac events.



When is the press going to start covering this?









						Increased emergency cardiovascular events among under-40 population in Israel during vaccine rollout and third COVID-19 wave - Scientific Reports
					

Cardiovascular adverse conditions are caused by coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) infections and reported as side-effects of the COVID-19 vaccines. Enriching current vaccine safety surveillance systems with additional data sources may improve the understanding of COVID-19 vaccine safety. Using...




					www.nature.com


----------



## eagle1462010 (Apr 30, 2022)

The press is owned by the Globalist.  They are paid to ignore it.


----------



## sparky (Apr 30, 2022)

Billy_Bob said:


> The studies coming out about the efficacy of the mRNA vaccines is stunning.


1.
European Medicines Agency (EMA). COVID-19 mRNA vaccines Comirnaty and Spikevax: risk of myocarditis pericarditis. Published online July 19, 2021. Accessed November 9, 2021. COVID-19 mRNA Vaccines Comirnaty and Spikevax: risk of myocarditis pericarditis - European Medicines Agency
2.
Mevorach D, Anis E, Cedar N, et al. Myocarditis after BNT162b2 mRNA vaccine against Covid-19 in Israel. _N Engl J Med_. Published online October 6, 2021. doi:10.1056/NEJMoa2109730
3.
Witberg G, Barda N, Hoss S, et al. Myocarditis after Covid-19 vaccination in a large health care organization. _N Engl J Med_. Published online October 6, 2021. doi:10.1056/NEJMoa2110737
4.
Klein NP, Lewis N, Goddard K, et al. Surveillance for adverse events after COVID-19 mRNA vaccination. _JAMA_. 2021;326(14):1390-1399. doi:10.1001/jama.2021.15072
ArticlePubMedGoogle ScholarCrossref
5.
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices meeting. Myocarditis analyses in the vaccine safety datalink: rapid cycle analyses and “head-to-head” product comparisons. October 21, 2021. Accessed March 10, 2022. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/slides-2021-10-20-21/08-COVID-Klein-508.pdf
6.
Montgomery J, Ryan M, Engler R, et al. Myocarditis following immunization with mRNA COVID-19 vaccines in members of the US military. _JAMA Cardiol_. 2021;6(10):1202-1206. doi:10.1001/jamacardio.2021.2833
ArticlePubMedGoogle ScholarCrossref
7.
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices meeting. Myopericarditis following COVID-19 vaccination: updates from the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS). October 21, 2021. Accessed March 10, 2022. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/slides-2021-10-20-21/07-COVID-Su-508.pdf
8.
US Food and Drug Administration Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee Meeting. Surveillance updates of myocarditis/pericarditis and mRNA COVID-19 vaccination in the FDA BEST System. October 14, 2021. Accessed March 10, 2022. https://www.fda.gov/media/153090/download
9.
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices meeting. COVID-19 vaccine safety updates. October 21, 2021. Accessed March 10, 2022. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/m...es-2021-10-20-21/06-COVID-Shimabukuro-508.pdf
10.
Government of Ontario. Canada. Ontario recommends the use of Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine for individuals aged 18-24 years old. Published online September 29, 2021. Accessed September 29, 2021. Ontario Newsroom
11.
EPI-PHARE. Myocardite et péricardite après la vaccination Covid-19 [in French]. Published online November 8, 2021. Accessed November 9, 2021. Myocardite et péricardite après la vaccination Covid-19
12.
Ljung R, Sundström A, Grünewald M, et al. The profile of the Covid-19 vaccination register safety study in Sweden (CoVacSafe-SE). _Ups J Med Sci_. 2021;126. doi:10.48101/ujms.v126.8136 PubMedGoogle Scholar
13.
Laugesen K, Ludvigsson JF, Schmidt M, et al. Nordic Health Registry–based research: a review of health care systems and key registries. _Clin Epidemiol_. 2021;13:533-554. doi:10.2147/CLEP.S314959 PubMedGoogle ScholarCrossref
14.
Ludvigsson JF, Håberg SE, Knudsen GP, et al. Ethical aspects of registry-based research in the Nordic countries. _Clin Epidemiol_. 2015;7:491-508. doi:10.2147/CLEP.S90589 PubMedGoogle Scholar
15.
Schultz NH, Sørvoll IH, Michelsen AE, et al. Thrombosis and thrombocytopenia after ChAdOx1 nCoV-19 vaccination. _N Engl J Med_. 2021;384(22):2124-2130. doi:10.1056/NEJMoa2104882 PubMedGoogle ScholarCrossref
16.
Pottegård A, Lund LC, Karlstad Ø, et al. Arterial events, venous thromboembolism, thrombocytopenia, and bleeding after vaccination with Oxford-AstraZeneca ChAdOx1-S in Denmark and Norway: population based cohort study. _BMJ_. 2021;373(1114):n1114. doi:10.1136/bmj.n1114 PubMedGoogle Scholar
17.
Sera F, Armstrong B, Blangiardo M, Gasparrini A. An extended mixed-effects framework for meta-analysis. _Stat Med_. 2019;38(29):5429-5444. doi:10.1002/sim.8362 PubMedGoogle ScholarCrossref
18.
R Core Team. The R Project for Statistical Computing. R Foundation for Statistical Computing, Vienna, Austria; 2021. Accessed November 9, 2021. https://www.r-project.org
19.
Cochran WG. The comparison of percentages in matched samples. _Biometrika_. 1950;37(3-4):256-266. doi:10.1093/biomet/37.3-4.256 PubMedGoogle ScholarCrossref
20.
US Food and Drug Administration. Spikevax. February 18, 2022. Accessed February 21, 2022. SPIKEVAX
21.
US Food and Drug Administration. Comirnaty (previously COVID-19 vaccine Moderna). December 16, 2021. Accessed February 21, 2022. (COVID-19 Vaccine, mRNA)
22.
European Medicines Agency. Spikevax (previously COVID-19 vaccine Moderna). February 21, 2022. Accessed February 12, 2022. Spikevax (previously COVID-19 Vaccine Moderna) - European Medicines Agency
23.
European Medicines Agency (EMA). Comirnaty. February 16, 2022. Accessed February 21, 2022. Comirnaty - European Medicines Agency
24.
American College of Cardiology. Perspectives: vaccine-associated myocarditis risk in context: emerging evidence. February 9, 2022. Accessed February 21, 2022. Vaccine-Associated Myocarditis Risk in Context: Emerging Evidence - American College of Cardiology
25.
World Health Organization. WHO coronavirus (COVID-19) dashboard. Accessed February 16, 2022. https://covid19.who.int
26.
Andrews N, Stowe J, Kirsebom F, et al. Covid-19 vaccine effectiveness against the Omicron (B.1.1.529) variant. _N Engl J Med_. 2022. Published online March 2, 2022. doi:10.1056/NEJMoa2119451PubMedGoogle Scholar
27.
Bager P, Wohlfahrt J, Bhatt S, et al. Reduced risk of hospitalisation associated with infection with SARS-CoV-2 Omicron relative to Delta: a Danish cohort study. _Lancet_. Published online January 14, 2022. doi:10.2139/ssrn.4008930Google Scholar
28.
Lyngse FP, Kirkeby CT, Denwood M, et al. Transmission of SARS-CoV-2 Omicron VOC subvariants BA.1 and BA.2: evidence from Danish households. _medRxiv_. Preprint posted online January 30, 2022. doi:10.1101/2022.01.28.22270044Google Scholar
29.
Ioannou GN, Locke ER, Green PK, Berry K. Comparison of Moderna versus Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine outcomes: a target trial emulation study in the U.S. Veterans Affairs healthcare system. _EClinicalMedicine_. 2022;45:101326. doi:10.1016/j.eclinm.2022.101326PubMedGoogle Scholar
30.
Dickerman BA, Gerlovin H, Madenci AL, et al. Comparative effectiveness of BNT162b2 and mRNA-1273 vaccines in US veterans. _N Engl J Med_. 2022;386(2):105-115. doi:10.1056/NEJMoa2115463 PubMedGoogle ScholarCrossref
31.
Dagan N, Barda N, Balicer RD. Adverse effects after BNT162b2 vaccine and SARS-CoV-2 infection, according to age and sex. _N Engl J Med_. 2021;385(24):2299. doi:10.1056/NEJMc2115045PubMedGoogle ScholarCrossref
32.
Barda N, Dagan N, Ben-Shlomo Y, et al. Safety of the BNT162b2 mRNA Covid-19 vaccine in a nationwide setting. _N Engl J Med_. 2021;385(12):1078-1090. doi:10.1056/NEJMoa2110475 PubMedGoogle ScholarCrossref
33.
Patone M, Mei XW, Handunnetthi L, et al. Risks of myocarditis, pericarditis, and cardiac arrhythmias associated with COVID-19 vaccination or SARS-CoV-2 infection. _Nat Med_. 2022;28(2):410-422. doi:10.1038/s41591-021-01630-0PubMedGoogle ScholarCrossref
34.
Husby A, Hansen JV, Fosbøl E, et al. SARS-CoV-2 vaccination and myocarditis or myopericarditis: population based cohort study. _BMJ_. 2021;375:e068665. doi:10.1136/bmj-2021-068665 PubMedGoogle Scholar


Billy_Bob said:


> Once the *active antibodies* are gone from a mRNA virus you are again at risk to become ill. Without the formation of long term immunities in your bone marrow which look for the virus you do not gain these.


the term often forwarded is 'monoclonal antibodies' ....









						Monoclonal antibody - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




this is the dif betwixt '_vaccine_' and '_therapy_'

~S~


----------



## eagle1462010 (Apr 30, 2022)

sparky said:


> 1.
> European Medicines Agency (EMA). COVID-19 mRNA vaccines Comirnaty and Spikevax: risk of myocarditis pericarditis. Published online July 19, 2021. Accessed November 9, 2021. COVID-19 mRNA Vaccines Comirnaty and Spikevax: risk of myocarditis pericarditis - European Medicines Agency
> 2.
> Mevorach D, Anis E, Cedar N, et al. Myocarditis after BNT162b2 mRNA vaccine against Covid-19 in Israel. _N Engl J Med_. Published online October 6, 2021. doi:10.1056/NEJMoa2109730
> ...


file:///C:/Users/family/Downloads/jamacardiology_montgomery_2021_br_210004_1633734807.98598.pdf

The demographic and clinical characteristics of patients are summarized inTable 2. Allmilitary servicememberswere physically fit bymilitary standards and lacking any known history of cardiac disease, significant cardiac risk factors, or exposure to cardiotoxic agents. All patients presented with acute chest pain and significantly elevated cardiac troponin levels (10-fold to 400-fold the upper limits of their respective reference ranges). Their symptoms began within 12 to 96 hours following immunization with an mRNA COVID-19 vaccine. Sixteen had received the mRNA-1273 vaccine (Moderna), and 7 had received the BNT162b2-mRNA vaccine (Pfizer-BioNTech). *For all but 3 patients, the second dose of vaccine preceded their myocarditis presentations. Among the 3 patients presenting after an initial vaccine dose, all had confirmed COVID-19 infection more than 2 months prior to vaccination.*



The 3 had already had Covid.  Had natural immunity before getting the jab........Lunacy.  But if you look at this small sample........in the main group they all had cardiac incidents only after the 2nd dose..........

Either way..........their lives are screwed forever..............Guy at work 33 years old who died from Covid ...........died from a blood clot was the scuttle butt .  Pattern.

Nice job the GAIN OF FUNCTION ASSHOLES DID HERE.........None of whom are in Prison.


----------



## Fort Fun Indiana (Apr 30, 2022)

The covid vaccines were and are a triumph of science and have helped us get through a pandemic of a nasty, novel virus. As the virus burns through our population, fewer have been hospitalized or have died because of the vaccines. Vaccinated people cleared the virus faster, resulting in slower community transmission rates and less impact on our society and economy. The anti vaxx dummies did their best to sabotage it. But even through periods where 90% of hospitalized people were unvaccinated, we were vaccinated enough on the whole to prevent our healthcare infrastructure from collapsing.

Vaccines won, anti vaxx morons failed.


----------



## Rigby5 (Apr 30, 2022)

Otis Mayfield said:


> Never met someone on the forum who is as wrong as you.
> 
> And you profess to be an expert. lol



You need to watch your own video.
Your video clearly says you have to put a real pathogen into vaccines for them to work.
The immune system can not identify and remember a pathogen unless one is present in the vaccine, even is dead.

And the mRNA injections have no virus for the immune system to remember or trigger on.
All the mRNA injections do is get our own cells to start growing spike proteins.
But the spike proteins of coronaviruses are mimicking the spike protein of our own exosomes.
So then spike proteins can NOT be used to identity, remember, or trigger on.


----------



## Rigby5 (Apr 30, 2022)

JohnDB said:


> That isn't true in my state or any of the states or areas I'm familiar with.  Currently being compiled data shows the exact opposite of this.



You are totally wrong.
Since vaccination rates are over 70%, if the vaccines worked, the epidemic would have been long over.  There simply are not enough unvaxed people left.
And now, the majority of those being infected and hospitalized ARE the vaxxed.









						The number of vaccinated vs. unvaccinated patients in Colorado hospitals is changing
					

Before drawing any conclusions, the data needs context.




					www.9news.com
				




{...
The number of vaccinated vs. unvaccinated patients in Colorado hospitals is changing​DENVER — The number of vaccinated versus unvaccinated patients in Colorado hospitals is changing. But before drawing any conclusions, the data needs context.
Wednesday, the COVID data dashboard published by the Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment (CDPHE) showed 42 vaccinated hospitalized patients and 46 unvaccinated patients -- a near even split. 

Thursday, the vaccinated outnumbered the other side with 59 patients compared to 44 unvaccinated patients. 
For clarity, we spoke with Dr. Jon Samet with the Colorado School of Public Health, Dr. Reggie Washington, the chief medical officer with Presbyterian St. Luke's Medical Center, and CDPHE.
There are a few reasons these experts aren't surprised by the numbers.
"It's what we would expect, particularly with [the omicron COVID variant], many people who were unvaccinated became infected and now have natural acquired immunity," Samet said. "So, the pool of people unvaccinated is now increasingly immune because the omicron infection or delta [variant] before that. We see that change in proportion and would expect that." 
CDPHE elaborated on that via email, saying that vaccine rates alone won't reflect other factors, especially when case counts are comparatively low.
_"First, nearly 80% of Colorado's adult population and nearly 90% of the 65+ population is fully vaccinated. The "even split" is coming from very different sized populations. Additionally, older individuals are more likely to be vaccinated but are also more likely to be hospitalized.
At times of very low case counts, it is not unusual to see things like this 'even split,' or even potentially times when there may be more vaccinated people hospitalized than unvaccinated people."_
All of that considered, by looking at sheer numbers, there can be more vaccinated patients because the vaccinated population is simply a much bigger group of people than those without the vaccine. When you break it down by age, a more apples-to-apple comparison, people without their shots end up in the hospital at a higher rate, CDPHE said.
...}


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## Billy_Bob (Apr 30, 2022)

sparky said:


> 1.
> European Medicines Agency (EMA). COVID-19 mRNA vaccines Comirnaty and Spikevax: risk of myocarditis pericarditis. Published online July 19, 2021. Accessed November 9, 2021. COVID-19 mRNA Vaccines Comirnaty and Spikevax: risk of myocarditis pericarditis - European Medicines Agency
> 2.
> Mevorach D, Anis E, Cedar N, et al. Myocarditis after BNT162b2 mRNA vaccine against Covid-19 in Israel. _N Engl J Med_. Published online October 6, 2021. doi:10.1056/NEJMoa2109730
> ...


you obviously have no idea what these studies state... Bravo..


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## Briss (Apr 30, 2022)

Fort Fun Indiana said:


> Vaccinated people cleared the virus faster,


How much faster?  What age group are you talking about?  What were their comorbidities?


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## Billy_Bob (Apr 30, 2022)

Fort Fun Indiana said:


> The covid vaccines were and are a triumph of science and have helped us get through a pandemic of a nasty, novel virus. As the virus burns through our population, fewer have been hospitalized or have died because of the vaccines. Vaccinated people cleared the virus faster, resulting in slower community transmission rates and less impact on our society and economy. The anti vaxx dummies did their best to sabotage it. But even through periods where 90% of hospitalized people were unvaccinated, we were vaccinated enough on the whole to prevent our healthcare infrastructure from collapsing.
> 
> Vaccines won, anti vaxx morons failed.


you don't have a f-ing clue.  Now those who were vaccinated are becoming the ones who die. Your vaccine was a short-term benefit and now the tables are turning because it did not allow the body's own immune system to function as it should..  Bravo... Moron..


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## Rigby5 (Apr 30, 2022)

Fort Fun Indiana said:


> The covid vaccines were and are a triumph of science and have helped us get through a pandemic of a nasty, novel virus. As the virus burns through our population, fewer have been hospitalized or have died because of the vaccines. Vaccinated people cleared the virus faster, resulting in slower community transmission rates and less impact on our society and economy. The anti vaxx dummies did their best to sabotage it. But even through periods where 90% of hospitalized people were unvaccinated, we were vaccinated enough on the whole to prevent our healthcare infrastructure from collapsing.
> 
> Vaccines won, anti vaxx morons failed.



Wrong.
The mRNA provided a short 6 month increase in B-cell antibody production, but it did nothing at all for long term memory in T-cells.  The mRNA vaccine was a total failure because it prevented herd immunity, so kept the epidemic going, essentially forever.
And now that the majority are vaccinated, the majority getting infected and being hospitalized are vaccinated.

The reality is that the correct procedure is to end any epidemic as quickly as possible.
The 2 methods are either full quarantine or herd immunity.
We did neither.
So instead we conserved easy hosts, so that it would never run out.


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## Billy_Bob (Apr 30, 2022)

Rigby5 said:


> You are totally wrong.
> Since vaccination rates are over 70%, if the vaccines worked, the epidemic would have been long over.  There simply are not enough unvaxed people left.
> And now, the majority of those being infected and hospitalized ARE the vaxxed.
> 
> ...


They are finding long term heart damage in people as old as 40 years of age...  There was no reason to vaccinate these people but they forced it on them.. what these idiots did is criminal.


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## Billy_Bob (Apr 30, 2022)

Rigby5 said:


> Wrong.
> The mRNA provided a short 6 month increase in B-cell antibody production, but it did nothing at all for long term memory in T-cells.  The mRNA vaccine was a total failure because it prevented herd immunity, so kept the epidemic going, essentially forever.
> And now that the majority are vaccinated, the majority getting infected and being hospitalized are vaccinated.
> 
> ...


Correct.

DeSantis had this one right. Protect the most vulnerable and let everyone else get it naturally and get over it. That is why Florida and other states that followed suit are now the best off in the nation.


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## Briss (May 1, 2022)

Rigby5 said:


> The mRNA vaccine was a total failure because it prevented herd immunity,


Oddly, tony kept begging us early on to get the experimental injection so that we can achieve herd immunity. He either knew that the experimental injection didn't confer immunity and decided to lie to us about that, or he didn't know that the experimental injection does not confer immunity, which would make him ignorant of the facts.  

Those are the two choices.  Did he lie? Or was he ignorant?


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## Billy_Bob (May 1, 2022)

Briss said:


> How much faster?  What age group are you talking about?  What were their comorbidities?


He is wrong.  Those who are vaccinate have a 10 times greater risk of becoming infected in the first 14 days. There after they have about a 3 times greater infection rate. The mRNA vaccines are not helpful in this area and were part of the reason for our spike in infections. They allowed asymptomatic spread.  Masking did next to nothing and wasn't much more than a placebo to make people feel good.  Not much of what the CDC or Fauci did was based in science.


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## Billy_Bob (May 1, 2022)

Briss said:


> Oddly, tony kept begging us early on to get the experimental injection so that we can achieve herd immunity. He either knew that the experimental injection didn't confer immunity and decided to lie to us about that, or he didn't know that the experimental injection does not confer immunity, which would make him ignorant of the facts.
> 
> Those are the two choices.  Did he lie? Or was he ignorant?


It was a monetary decision. As I understand it, Fauci is on the take from Big Pharma.. he didn't care what damage it did as long as his pockets got fat with money.


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## Billy_Bob (May 1, 2022)

Rigby5 said:


> The mRNA vaccine was a total failure because it prevented herd immunity, so kept the epidemic going, essentially forever.


And this is the key.... Biden was set to keep the shots coming forever.  Making us dependent on the government for our very lives and lining the pockets of those who donated to his campaign.  Corrupt bastards to the very core.  This is why they wanted no one to look into natural immunities and why they are so superior to the man made crap.


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## Briss (May 1, 2022)

Billy_Bob said:


> It was a monetary decision. As I understand it, Fauci is on the take from Big Pharma.. he didn't care what damage it did as long as his pockets got fat with money.


Unfortunately, a lot of humans have not evolved to the extent necessary to avoid exploitation by humanity's sellouts.  Instead of seeing them for what they are, they revere them out of a conditioned loyalty to authority.


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## sparky (May 1, 2022)

Billy_Bob said:


> The mRNA vaccines are not helpful


because.......it's ....not......a......vaccine

~S~


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## Burgermeister (May 3, 2022)

"This week MEP Christine Anderson (AfD) gave her first speech before the European Union’s new “COVID-19 inquiry committee”. The German MEP condemned the EU’s Covid policies and demanded an investigation into the clear human rights violations under the pretext of combatting a virus.

Anderson railed against the “false claims regarding the safety of the vaccines, their alleged definitive approval, and so-called effectiveness.” The MEP pointed out that the European Medicines Agency (EMA) database shows that in seven months, the Covid “vaccines” caused 20 times as many serious side effects and 23 times as many deaths as all other vaccines in the past 20 years combined.

“Why isn’t that being investigated,” questioned the MEP."

Why indeed.









						Watch MEP Destroy Entire Covid Policy in 5 Minutes: 'Time For Very Unpleasant Questions' - RAIR
					

Covid "vaccines" caused 20 times as many serious side effects and 23 times as many deaths as all other vaccines in the past 20 years combined.




					rairfoundation.com


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