# Vietnam War: Top secret US papers published



## Jos (Jun 13, 2011)

> A top secret US government report into the Vietnam War has been officially released.   Pentagon Papers
> 
> The publication comes 40 years after parts were leaked to the New York Times, showing that the administration at the time had lied to the public.
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> The National Archives formally released all 7,000 pages on Monday.


BBC News - Vietnam War: Top secret US papers published


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## Warrior102 (Jun 13, 2011)

What Admin lied? JFK's?
I can't imagine that. He was one cool dude. 
We need someone like him today. Doubt if he lied to anyone.... He always looked out for what was BEST for America.


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## Jos (Jun 13, 2011)

Warrior102 said:


> What Admin lied? JFK's?
> I can't imagine that. He was one cool dude.
> We need someone like him today. Doubt if he lied to anyone.... He always looked out for what was BEST for America.



Looking out for the Best for America can get yerr dead, the masters dont like that view


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## whitehall (Jun 13, 2011)

Warrior102 said:


> What Admin lied? JFK's?
> I can't imagine that. He was one cool dude.
> We need someone like him today. Doubt if he lied to anyone.... He always looked out for what was BEST for America.




God help us when we ever let a president hire his own brother to be Attorney General. Bobby thought he was secretary of state and his crazy fixation on Cuba might have caused the death of JFK. At any rate the brothers were out of control. They authorized the CIA to raise, feed, train and equip a little army of Cuban exiles and abandoned them at the Bay of Pigs. It was LBJ who lied about the Tonkin Gulf crisis and he set the rules in VietNam so that America couldn't possibly win the war even though they won every battle. Just when the US was poised to finally wear out the V.C. after TET Walter Cronkite decided to enter the war and tell Americans that the hard won victory of TET wasn't a victory at all but a stalemate. LBJ quit in front of the whole world and the VC had a new lease on life.


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## High_Gravity (Jun 13, 2011)

Haven't you heard? Vietnam wasn't a war, it was a "Police Action" according to that clown ginscpy.


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## Sunni Man (Jun 13, 2011)

High_Gravity said:


> Haven't you heard? Vietnam wasn't a war, it was a "Police Action" according to that clown ginscpy.



 Actually that is correct.

 Same with the so-called Korean War.


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## High_Gravity (Jun 13, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> High_Gravity said:
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> 
> > Haven't you heard? Vietnam wasn't a war, it was a "Police Action" according to that clown ginscpy.
> ...



Are you saying it is not a war because congress didn't declare it? or another reason?


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## Sunni Man (Jun 13, 2011)

High_Gravity said:


> Sunni Man said:
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 They were UN backed conflicts and referred to as a Police Action not a war.

 That's why there were soldiers from Greece, Australia, New Zealand, Turkey, and several other countries that participated in both conflicts.


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## José (Jun 13, 2011)

> Originally posted by *whitehall*
> It was LBJ who lied about the Tonkin Gulf crisis and he set the rules in VietNam so that America couldn't possibly win the war even though they won every battle. Just when the US was poised to finally wear out the V.C. after TET Walter Cronkite decided to enter the war and tell Americans that the hard won victory of TET wasn't a victory at all but a stalemate.



*IF WE DID THIS, IF WE DID THAT... BLAH, BLAH, BLAH...*

America could have invaded North Vietnam, occupied Hanoi and it wouldn't make any difference.

The North Vietnamese would simply retreat into the jungle and continue to fight from there.

The conflict would even have survived the end of the Cold War, *BECAUSE IT DIDN'T HAVE SHIT TO DO WITH COMUNISM*, it was a national liberation struggle to expel foreign troops from vietnamese soil and unify the country under the command of Vietnam's greatest independence hero, Ho Chi Minh.


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## José (Jun 13, 2011)

"They won every battle" because "they" was a military behemoth pounding a flea.

If the vietnamese people had anything remotely similar to the US military machine the US army wouldn't have lasted a week.


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## Sunni Man (Jun 13, 2011)

José;3749201 said:
			
		

> "They won every battle" because "they" was a military behemoth pounding a flea.
> 
> If the vietnamese people had anything remotely similar to the US military machine the US army wouldn't have lasted a week.



 I would have to disagree with that.

 If the Vietnamese had waged a conventional war they would have been beat severely.

 Because that type of war is what America does best.


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## sparky (Jun 13, 2011)

I guess failure will always be an orphan

but what can be learned of this info, _here & now_?  

i suppose we'll be singing the _woulda coulda shoulda's_ 100 years from this submission, but i have to ask, how many of you would want to live through it all again?

if your answer is no, check out what Ellsburg is saying about this

i found i rather disturbing....


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## José (Jun 13, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> José;3749201 said:
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Disagree all you want, Sunni.

It doesn't change the fact that with similar military hardware and proper training they would have crushed the US army in less than a year because their motivation was 1000 times greater than that of american troops.

They were fighting for home not for American interests in a foreign country they couldn't even find on a map of southeast Asia.


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## José (Jun 13, 2011)

The West created a totally discredited puppet government in a fictitious country named South Vietnam, turned a small conflict that would follow France's withdrawal into a bloodbath of biblical proportions, utterly destroyed Vietnam's infrastructure and we still have to put up with asshole posts by cretins like whitehall.

And people tell me I should honor all Vietnam vets... even those who don't regret their participation in the destruction of that small nation.

I'd love to honor an unrepentant Vietnam vet by delivering a load of hot, stinky piss in his mouth.


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## Sunni Man (Jun 13, 2011)

That is a bit much José.

 Most Vietnam vet like me were drafted.

 In those days it was prison for three years or two years in the army.

 I did not want to go but I sure did want to spend three years in prison.

 Believe me it wasn't about patriotism or defending America.

 It was about surviving and having your brother's back.

 Many vets like me are neutral about it.

 We were 19 years old and not politically sophisticated.

 So to blame us is pure nonsense.

 The US government is who should bear the responsibility not the individual soldier


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## José (Jun 13, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> That is a bit much José.
> 
> Most Vietnam vet like me were drafted.
> 
> ...



Sunni, we are all humans, we all make mistakes, specially when we're teenagers/young adults... so I won't be the first one casting stones...

But there has to be repentance, Sunni... 

If you sincerely regret your participation it's like you'd never left America and didn't participate in the destruction of Vietnam.

But if you don't it's as if you were still in the jungles of Vietnam, killing young vietnamese who never did any harm to America and only wished to unify their homeland.

I know what I'm saying sounds like Christian theology (the emphasis on repentance) but as an agnostic I can assure you it's just common sense : )

I have nothing but respect for people who participated in that conflict and sincerely regret it... because we all know how difficult it is to recognise our own mistakes from a human point of view.

And yes, I know the weird, absurd tendency people have to give a free pass to the direct perpetrators of that unjustified war of aggression, the tendency to exonerate the ones who pulled the triggers and drop the bombs of any guilt and put all the blame on politicians.

This is pure, unadulterated bullshit. The direct perpetrators are as guilty as any politician.

No justice system in the world would allow a murderer to go unpunished just because he was not the intellectual author of the crime.

But I'll say it again, Sunni. 

It's not the "*I was just following orders*" bullshit what really cleanses a Vietnam vet from the acts of unjustified violence he commited against that country.

*REPENTANCE IS WHAT REALLY ABSOLVE YOU OF ANY WRONGDOING.* 

The way I see it, if you sincerely repent you're just like a newborn baby, immaculate, without any sin.


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## Sunni Man (Jun 13, 2011)

You're going to go in way out there José.

 Am I happy with the way things happen?   No

 Do I feel like I need to repent for something.?   No

 It's just the way it was and it was a long time ago.

FIDO     Forget it; drive on


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## whitehall (Jun 13, 2011)

High_Gravity said:


> Haven't you heard? Vietnam wasn't a war, it was a "Police Action" according to that clown ginscpy.



They never really called VietNam a "police action". That term was reserved for Korea. It wasn't a war either.


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## Douger (Jun 13, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


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Those weren't soldiers. Those were brainwashed sheep too fucking dumb to think and act on their own.


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## whitehall (Jun 13, 2011)

José;3749180 said:
			
		

> > Originally posted by *whitehall*
> > It was LBJ who lied about the Tonkin Gulf crisis and he set the rules in VietNam so that America couldn't possibly win the war even though they won every battle. Just when the US was poised to finally wear out the V.C. after TET Walter Cronkite decided to enter the war and tell Americans that the hard won victory of TET wasn't a victory at all but a stalemate.
> 
> 
> ...



Here's the deal jose. You lefties jost love to make grand statements about international policy you might have learned in the third grade but you can never seem to pin the tail on the donkey. A true leftie might condemn Nixon or the Military or even capitalism but they can't seem to bring themselves to criticize LBJ even when it is right in front of them. Maybe it's the skewed pop-culture education in the last 40 years.


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## José (Jun 14, 2011)

> Originally posted by *whitehall*
> Here's the deal jose. You lefties jost love to make grand statements about international policy you might have learned in the third grade but you can never seem to pin the tail on the donkey. A true leftie might condemn Nixon or the Military or even capitalism but they can't seem to bring themselves to criticize LBJ even when it is right in front of them. Maybe it's the skewed pop-culture education in the last 40 years.



Jesus Christ, whitehall!!

Not everybody in this world are blind, virulent partisans like you who see contemporary human history exclusively through the paradigm of the two major american political parties!!

I don't care to know which party started or prolonged the Vietnam massacre or if the invading force was made up of american G.I's in Vietnam or soviet conscripts in Afghanistan!!

There is something called human decency that makes normal human beings puke at the disgusting, shameful sight of a first world country and its army meddling into the internal affairs of a small, impoverished nation of peasants to "send a message" to the "other side" totally destroying them in the process.

This is not about donkeys and elephants, you partisan hack : )

This is about maintaining a bare minimum of moral integrity and not losing your moral compass.


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## Sallow (Jun 14, 2011)

José;3749282 said:
			
		

> The West created a totally discredited puppet government in a fictitious country named South Vietnam, turned a small conflict that would follow France's withdrawal into a bloodbath of biblical proportions, utterly destroyed Vietnam's infrastructure and we still have to put up with asshole posts by cretins like whitehall.
> 
> And people tell me I should honor all Vietnam vets... even those who don't regret their participation in the destruction of that small nation.
> 
> I'd love to honor an unrepentant Vietnam vet by delivering a load of hot, stinky piss in his mouth.



That's completely fucked up.

You may not have agreed that the war was right..or even thought it was criminal..but the Veterans of the war were doing what their nation directed them to do.

And many of them came back and protested the war. Many didn't. But either way..they served America. And they deserve respect.


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## sparky (Jun 14, 2011)

_respect?_  while_ all _the major networks refused coverage of Winter Soldier's washington protest?  

debatable that....


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## editec (Jun 14, 2011)

whitehall said:


> Warrior102 said:
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> > What Admin lied? JFK's?
> ...


 
Kennedy took office on JAN 20TH 1961

The Bay of Pigs happened about 90s days later... mid April 1961

There's no way in Hell that operation was something JFK had time to get together.  He inherited that mess


 Eisenhower *authorized* $13 million and Department of Defense *...* Essentially, the operation called for the training and *equipping* of a the ex-patriot army of Cubans.

Kennedy's mistake was trusting the CIA's judgement.

Of course, Castro knew everything about the plan and slaughtered that invading force on beaches.


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## The Gadfly (Jun 14, 2011)

José;3749282 said:
			
		

> The West created a totally discredited puppet government in a fictitious country named South Vietnam, turned a small conflict that would follow France's withdrawal into a bloodbath of biblical proportions, utterly destroyed Vietnam's infrastructure and we still have to put up with asshole posts by cretins like whitehall.
> 
> And people tell me I should honor all Vietnam vets... even those who don't regret their participation in the destruction of that small nation.
> 
> I'd love to honor an unrepentant Vietnam vet by delivering a load of hot, stinky piss in his mouth.



Well, well, if it isn't the People's Hero and chief VC cheerleader again; what's the matter, no war protest today? Or did the politburo give you a break from licking Uncle Ho's dead arse long enough for you to crawl out of his coffin and speak? Is that the best you can do for an insult? That's weak, even for a commie rat like you!

For those who missed it, this one actually said in our last discussion on the subject, that American troops were "responsible" for the VC's atrocities; he more or less implied we somehow "made them do it". Real devils incarnate, we were; now, he says, we were just a bunch of unmotivated slackers. Make up your mind, Jose, (if it can be called a mind)!

Just for the record, Jose, here's one VERY "unrepentant Vietnam vet" who would love to imbed his jump boots in your sorry, un-American arse, one at a time, and then shut your foul piehole with a GI fist; that way, I could have the pleasure of watching you explode from the pressure of all that intellectual flatus trapped inside. You'd be funny, if you weren't so disgusting. There are things I regret about Vietnam, but killing VC and NVA is NOT one of them. Repent? HELL NO! You, Hanoi Jane, and your VC/NVA pals can wait on that, until hell freezes over; it is NOT going to happen. I would like to know exactly how you think you became such a superior being, so imbued with a high moral sense, as to think yourself fit to pass judgment on men who have actually had to make moral decisions under extreme stress, and live or die with the results. Of course, it's easier to do that from your armchair, than it is humping a ruck and a rifle. We at least exercised responsibility, instead of running from it.

The more I read of your pompous, self-righteous moralizing, the more I realize what kind of simplistic thinking it derives from. You see the world in terms of First World bad, Third World good. You look at policies and events in isolation from the larger, longer-term conflicts of which they were a part, and the historical context in which they occurred. What's missing from that viewpoint, is the realization that with WW II (one could argue the process started some years earlier) the world shrunk, and as a result, America lost the luxury of waiting to be attacked before reacting; that was a bit dangerous before; now, it's potentially fatal. Defending America since has become a far more complex proposition, requiring that we be more proactive. Defending freedom in the world we inherited is actually a subject for discussion in its own thread, and I think I'll start one.


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## The Gadfly (Jun 14, 2011)

Douger said:


> Sunni Man said:
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As for you, maggot, I am glad you are no longer polluting the air of America by breathing it, or dirtying her soil by treading upon it! God, what brought the vermin out of the woodwork today? Doesn't matter; go crawl back into your hole in the banana republic dung heap and go back to sleep.


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## The Gadfly (Jun 14, 2011)

José;3749463 said:
			
		

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Jose, who the hell died and made you the High Priest of Whatever? It is one thing for you to hate what I was and am; I went to Vietnam as a professional soldier and an officer. I volunteered. Sunni and hundreds of thousands like him didn't have a say in the matter; they were drafted, and sent, whether they liked it or not, whether they understood it or not. Not a single one of them, not one, needs to "repent", or apologize to you or anyone else. You want to piss on them too, and that is both disgusting, and more than a little unfair! Who the hell are you to pass judgment on them? How do you know what they did or didn't do? YOU WEREN'T THERE! I get sick of seeing the implication they were un-motivated slackers; however they felt about it, and even though a lot of them were little more than boys, they fought, bled, and a lot of them died, with valor, and yes, with honor. I know, because I WAS THERE, and I saw what they did. They have NOTHING to be ashamed of, NOTHING! At least they know the meaning of the word, "honor", which you do not, as you slander the living and profane the memory of the fallen.

Incidentally, there's a song from back then called "The Universal Coward"; it should be your theme song. One verse in particular fits what you represent:

_He's the Universal Coward, and he runs from everything;
From a giant, from a human, from an elf;
He runs from Uncle Sam, and he runs from Vietnam;
but most of all, he's running from himself._


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## Sunni Man (Jun 14, 2011)

whitehall said:


> High_Gravity said:
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> > Haven't you heard? Vietnam wasn't a war, it was a "Police Action" according to that clown ginscpy.
> ...


Generally, Vietnam was call a "Conflict"


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## The Gadfly (Jun 14, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> whitehall said:
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Quite correct, Sunni, although I have to say, it damn sure FELT like a war, from my perspective. "Conflict" and "police action" are terms favored by civilians and REMFs who are not on the receiving end of incoming. I still remember an officer (recently returned from a tour as an advisor in Vietnam), commenting to the effect that, "Vietnam is the sort of low-intensity "brushfire" conflict we are likely to be facing for the foreseeable future. However, there is no such thing as a low intensity firefight, when you happen to be in one!"


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## Sunni Man (Jun 14, 2011)

The Gadfly said:


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The government loves to use euphemisms to lessen the impact of military actions.

I remember the Cambodian "incursion" ala Nixon

And the technique still works today. 

Obama's "kinetic" military action in Libya

The are some evil Machiavellian people in every administration.

Who do nothing but dream this stuff up to try and deceive the people.


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## The Gadfly (Jun 14, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


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Yeah, and I wonder if a politician ever met a euphemism he didn't like. I can't understand the current fad of trying to somehow "sanitize" combat-it is what it is. It's like trying to polish a turd, and put it a pretty package-at the end of the day, it's still a turd, and still stinks.


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## sparky (Jun 15, 2011)

Q here, 
doesn't anyone see history repeating itself, sans a draft?


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## editec (Jun 15, 2011)

whitehall said:


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Oh what utter fucking bullshit.

Kid, you don't know doodlesquat about how much shit the anti-war movement gave LBJ.

So read a fucking book, you ignoramous.


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## Sunni Man (Jun 15, 2011)

LBJ caught hell

 Why do you think he did not want to run for a second term??

 I grew up during that time.

 So I know exactly what went on


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## José (Jun 15, 2011)

> Originally posted by *The Gadfly*
> Jose, who the hell died and made you the High Priest of Whatever?





> Originally posted by *BulldozerI*
> Since when did you become Jesus Christ?



LOL, Gadfly/BulldozerI!!

I'm a "J" but definitely not a "JC". 

          

I had a tumultous adolescence in which I brought great sadness to my parents and they forgave me (of course they did, they're my parents...). So I believe everybody, even Vietnam veterans, must be given every chance and opportunity to express sincere remorse for what they did to Vietnam...

And if they do repent it's as if they never left America. But if they don't I'm not afraid to say they deserve a giant, spiky dildo up their asses while they're still alive and all the fire of Hell after they die.


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## José (Jun 15, 2011)

> Originally posted by *Sallow*
> but the Veterans of the war were doing what their nation directed them to do.



And by doing so they commited a crime, Sallow, they became as criminal as the government that ordered them to do it.

People, get this into your skulls:

America didn't have any *CASUS BELLI* (reason for war) to interfere with Vietnam's internal affairs. No vietnamese aggression against the US, no nothing... NADA, ZERO, ZILCH. Therefore american soldiers didn't have any right to stomp an ant in Vietnam let alone kill the vietnamese people (combatants or non-combatansts, the distinction is irrelevant when there's no casus belli to speak of)!!

A vietnamese stray dog killed by an american G.I. in an remote, obscure vietnamese village in March, 21, 1965 was a crime!!

*Due to the absolute absence of anything remotely resembling a legitimate casus belli, each and every act of violence perpetrated by american soldiers in Vietnam was a crime!!*

Imbeciles who "thank Vietnam vets for their service" are actually thanking criminals for the crimes they committed!!

I'll never understand this obsession that exists in America and that seems to be the country's favorite national pastime to give a free pass to the very same people who actually killed hundreds of thousands of vietnamese.

Take a good look at the scandalous double standards with which you judge criminals in civilian and military clothes, Sallow:

When people are paid by a civilian to kill someone else you don't even think about putting all the blame on the person who hired them.

But when they are paid to kill innocent people on behalf of the United States in an unjustified war of aggression you do just that!!

It stands to reason that everybody involved in the Vietnam war is guilty of waging an unjustified war against that country (from the US president who gave the orders to the lowest of grunts who carried them out).

Super-patriotic american clowns build an absurd, mentally insane protective shield around US soldiers to deflect criticism from the individuals who actually carried out that war of aggression!!

You blame 19 arabs who demolished two skyscrappers in America without provocation on behalf of Al-Qaeda but thank thousands of Americans who destroyed the entire country of Vietnam on behalf of the US government in an equally unjust war.

How depraved is that, Sallow?


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## José (Jun 15, 2011)

> Originally posted by *Sallow*
> That's completely fucked up.



What is realy fucked up, sick and morally depraved is people who thank and respect someone for this kind of "service", Sallow:





Each and every one of those young men had families and a whole life ahead of them, Sallow. Neither them nor their country did anything to America to deserve this.

You cannot separate their deaths and suffering from the people who *ACTUALLY* killed and hurt them. You cannot extricate the "service" of Vietnam veterans from all the criminal suffering they imposed on the people of Vietnam. They are one and the same.

Everytime you thank an unrepentant Vietnam vet you're thanking a criminal who impose decades of excrutianting pain on hundreds of vietnamese, maimed or severely burned by Napalm and other explosives/chemical agents and still don't feel bad about it.

Everytime you thank them you're spitting on the suffering of hundreds of thousands of vietnamese mothers, fathers, widows, orphans who waited for them to return and many still suffer to this day.

You're thanking those unrepentant criminals for all the innocent lives they cut short. 

From the kind of pornographic patriotism that leads you to say "thank you for your service" to people whose "service" was to destroy a nation that never hurt the US I just want one thing: distance. 

I have seen many road whores in my life, offering themselves to truck drivers, that had more compassion and moral stature than the sick, morally depraved kind of patriotism you're defending here, Sallow.


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## José (Jun 15, 2011)

Sallow, I don't want you to get the wrong impression I'm being "hostile" to you when in reality I'm the biggest fan of your posts. I'll never forget the calm, dispassionate manner in which you summed up the Afghanistan war:

"*The conflict was justified now America should pull out its troops and leave a strong warning that we'll be back if necessary.*"

What a wonderful, thoughtful, dispassionate answer!! While insane people are littering Message Boards with genocidal dreams about nuking a whole country because of the actions of a handful of islamic terrorists here you are presenting a reasonable, proportional response!!

As far as Afghanistan is concerned I'd go a step further and say that if America decides to leave  it must make clear to the Afghan government (either Karzai or even a future Taliban government) that Afghanistan will be closely watched and if they are unwilling or unable to prevent the infiltration of Al Quaeda the country reserves the right to conduct air strikes and special forces operations without any warning.

So I want to make clear I'm an admirer of your posts who just happen to disagree with you on this particular issue, ok?


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## Sunni Man (Jun 15, 2011)

You better get going José

Or you will be late for your La Raza meeting.

 And miss the opening "I hate America anthem"


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## sparky (Jun 15, 2011)

_geez loouizzeee_

bad enough to have had lived thru the history 

but having to live with the revisionists of it too...


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## The Gadfly (Jun 15, 2011)

José;3754484 said:
			
		

> > Originally posted by *The Gadfly*
> > Jose, who the hell died and made you the High Priest of Whatever?
> 
> 
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For such a moralizer, you are a perverted little thing, aren't you, Jose? Damn, you are one sick, twisted little puppy; rather imaginative with the torture routines for someone who claims to abhor the nasty side of war, if you ask me. I'll leave the ethnic insults to others, because I couldn't care less what your background happens to be; I prefer to concentrate on you as an individual.

Is that picture of dead VC combatants supposed to make anyone weep? Sorry, but no. I know what would, though, a picture of the innocent women and children VC just like these raped and tortured to death in village after village, just to keep the peasants they were supposedly "liberating" compliant. No one else here deserves to have to look at the pictures of that I have burned into my brain, but YOU should; you ought to have to look at what your precious little "freedom fighters" did, not to "foreign invaders" but to their own people. You ought to have to look at it, smell it, and hear the screams of those somehow still alive (but dying) after being subjected to it. You ought to have to face the reality of what and who you are praising and mourning for. You ought to have to face it, because they were doing that, long before any American soldier set foot in Vietnam. You ought to have to face it, because the American soldiers you hate so much did NOT go into villages, and torture the inhabitants all night long, the way the VC did. Those dead VC you're asking people here to feel sorry for are the REAL murderers, torturers, and baby-killers of Vietnam, and I mean that in the most literal sense! I wish every sanctimonious bastard like you had to look at that horror. Then you might understand just what we were fighting against. You ought to have to pull the bodies of infants out of the fire they threw them into, the fire they were using to heat the bamboo slivers they tortured everyone from toddlers to the aged with. You ought to have to see every female, from little girls to old women, raped and violated in ways I refuse to even describe here. You ought to have to look at the stuff still imbedded in their bodies. You ought to have to look at women and kids who had every bone in their bodies broken, look at them mutilated in ways so vile you couldn't imagine it, even in your sick fantasies. You ought to have to look at all of it, because until you have, believe me, you only THINK you know what evil truly is. Then again, between your twisted mind, and your hatred for American troops, you might actually get off on it, so long as you could imagine some way to blame us for it. Go crawl back under your rock, you demented hypocrite!


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## The Gadfly (Jun 15, 2011)

BulldozerI said:


> The Gadfly said:
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I don't give a damn if Jose is Mexican, American, Russian, or anything else. This should not turn into a Latino bashing; this is about ONE individual, and the garbage he spews through his keyboard; let's keep the focus on that, because that is where it belongs. Some of the Americans who served in Vietnam were Mexican-Americans. They fought as bravely and honorably as anyone else. Before you start trashing them all, because of this fool, I want you to look up the Medal of Honor citation for MSgt. Roy. P. Benavidez. I want you to read it, and then, I want you to reflect on the kind of courage it takes for any man to do what he did. Roy was a Mexican-American, and if he was not a hero, we had no heroes.


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## Trajan (Jun 15, 2011)

José;3749278 said:
			
		

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## José (Jun 16, 2011)

The Gadfly said:


> BulldozerI said:
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> > How lucky the Mexican must be not have nightmares about World War 1, World War 2, Korea, Vietnam, Gulf War, etc.,,,What a clean conscience just to blame Americans for all the stuff they are denying those poor Latino illegals.
> ...



This guy is a lost case, Gadfly... bat shit crazy. 

He thinks about and sees evil Mexicans who are out there to get him 24/7... It's so extreme, it can't even be called a paranoid obsession. He blames Latinos for everything bad that has ever happened to America, from the first death in Jamestown to the Wiener scandal. 

You don't know him because illegal immigration is not one of your favorite topics. 

Anyway, he's a fellow veteran. You're a veteran of the Vietnam War and he's a veteran of at least 80% of all US mental institutions.


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## The Gadfly (Jun 16, 2011)

José;3758027 said:
			
		

> The Gadfly said:
> 
> 
> > BulldozerI said:
> ...



I'm not into racial or ethnic bigotry, Jose; all I care about, is what kind of American you are, not where your parents or grandparents came from, or what color your skin happens to be. That said the subject at hand is the hatred you spew from your keyboard.

Personally it's not anything I haven't heard before, starting when I got back from 'Nam. Frankly, I've been called worse, and I'd have let it go as the rantings of just one more delusional peacenik, if you had directed it only at me. As it is, you have insulted every American who served in Vietnam, living and dead, and their families. There are people here reading this who lost loved ones in Vietnam; they don't need to hear the trash you express. Those are their fathers, brothers, husbands and sons you are dishonoring and calling war criminals. Those are real people who haven't done a damn thing to you or anyone you sympathize with, and they don't deserve to see the memories of real people they once loved trashed or stained by you, or anyone else.  I'll be damned if I'll sit here, and let you have a free shot at defaming the memory of my 58,000 dead brothers, who are no longer here to defend their loved ones, and their own honor, from your hateful garbage.. 

There are also Vietnam veterans reading this, who are still bearing the burden of that war. Some of them will never walk again, some are blind or missing limbs, some are dying from the effects of Agent Orange, some have wounds you can't see. I'm one of the lucky ones; I may have to live with my PTSD but it has not destroyed my life. Not one of them went to Vietnam because he wanted to slaughter innocent people, Jose, not one. ALL of them deserve better, than to be judged, slammed, and kicked to the curb by people with your views. While you cry over the Cong, maybe you could save a little of that phony "compassion" of yours for them; after all, they are your fellow Americans, aren't they? Or is that too much to ask? In any case, if they did anything wrong, they have been hurt enough, and neither need nor deserve another gratuitous kick in the ass, nor any more demands that they "repent".

You are one more of many who have twisted the doctrine of "Only following orders not being a defense". That was never meant to apply to anyone who had not committed gross and obvious violations of the Laws of War, or genocide. If it had been, we'd have had to try every single German soldier as a war criminal. We didn't do that, not only because it was not practical, but also because it was not right. *We directed that concept specifically at those who themselves followed and gave orders they knew were far beyond what is normally done in fighting a war.* No one ever meant for that idea to apply to every soldier who simply fought on what someone perceived as the "wrong" side of any conflict. It was never intended to apply to the soldier who otherwise lawfully killed his combatant foes (I notice no one suggested trying the entire Serbian army, either), even in a war the victors decided was "unwarranted aggression". The Allies recognized after Nuremberg that some of what had been done there was problematic justice at that, which is why they were a lot more selective in charging Japanese soldiers as war criminals.  Failure to appreciate that, is leading you to actually trivialize words like "war criminal" and "crimes against humanity"; like any fanatic, you paint with too broad a brush. 

The vast majority of American troops in Vietnam did not give or carry out orders to commit atrocities; the few who did, were tried for it by the U.S. military; those convicted, went to jail for it. We were neither ordered nor allowed to simply run amok in Vietnam; we had orders, regulations, and rules of engagement to prevent that, and the vast majority obeyed those. Suggestions to the contrary are simply not true. In any event, those of us who are left are old (I think we are all past sixty now, and will answer to the Supreme Commander soon enough, for what we did or didn't do). Incidentally, some of our brothers are homeless, and living on the street; forgotten, forsaken, and kicked to the curb, in large part because people like you convinced America they were just the worthless scrap left over from a failed war; where the hell is your "compassion" for them?


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## Trajan (Jun 16, 2011)

sparky said:


> _respect?_  while_ all _the major networks refused coverage of Winter Soldier's washington protest?
> 
> debatable that....



I guess then you didn't bother to investigate/read so as to discover thst there was some serious bullshit being peddled ala winter soldier? wow, imagine my surprise.


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## Trajan (Jun 16, 2011)

editec said:


> whitehall said:
> 
> 
> > Warrior102 said:
> ...



uh huh...sooo does bush get the same leeway for an op 7 months, 3 weeks later ?


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## Trajan (Jun 16, 2011)

José;3754490 said:
			
		

> > Originally posted by *Sallow*
> > but the Veterans of the war were doing what their nation directed them to do.
> 
> 
> ...




Q- _was_ there a ' Domino effect' to worry about? .


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## Sunni Man (Jun 17, 2011)

I suggest everyone put Bulldozer III on ignore.

 Then he will get frustrated because nobody talks to him and will go away.


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## José (Jun 17, 2011)

> Originally posted by *Trajan*
> the north was fighting in the south for their homes?



Trajan, you can find a more detailed answer to your question below but to make a long story short, South Vietnam was an artificial country created by colonial France. As a totally illegitimate country its defence could not be invoked as a pretext to interfere in Vietnam's internal matters.



> Originally posted by *Trajan*
> Q- was there a ' Domino effect' to worry about?



I'm willing to bet you wouldn't approve of a coalition of countries invading America in the early 1800's to end slavery, ravaging the country and killing american citizens by the thousands, would you Trajan?

But as a good american super patriot you have no problem with America doing the same in Vietnam to fight communism.


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## José (Jun 17, 2011)

Gadfly, 

I read your previous posts yesterday morning and Im addressing them now.  Yesterday I just had the time to warn you about Bulldozer, the mentally deranged poster : )

I just read your most recent message (very thoughtful, very serene post) and will reply as soon as I can. The result of this delay is a somewhat truncated debate but theres nothing I can do about it (bear with me cause I have severe time constraints).


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## José (Jun 17, 2011)

Gadfly, the main problem here is your total inability to see the Vietnam war through the eyes of the Vietnamese people (that happens to be the "real" perception since it was *THEIR* country):

You said elsewhere that North Vietnam was a soviet puppet regime:



> Originally posted by *The Gadfly* - _The Vietnam War according to José_
> I was fighting the expansion of Soviet communism, by fighting against a Soviet puppet regime (which North Vietnam certainly was), and its soldiers (the VC, and the NVA).


Let's see what History tells us about the legitimacy of North and South Vietnam:



> The State of Vietnam (that would become South Vietnam) *had partial autonomy from France* as an associated state within the French Union. Some regarded the State of Vietnam as *a puppet state of the French Fourth Republic*.
> 
> Following the referendum's results the State of Vietnam ceased to exist in 1955 and was replaced by the Republic of Vietnam - widely known as South Vietnam.
> 
> State of Vietnam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


What do you have to say about that, Gadfly?

The french colonial power, not vietnamese nationalists, created and ruled directly the Provisional Government = State of Vietnam (that became) South Vietnam.

An artificial country created by a colonial power that never possessed any public support and that's precisely why the entire history of South Vietnam was an endless succession of feeble, pathetically weak political "leaders" and their doomed governments.

A (puppet) "country" doesn't get any more illegitimate, shambolic than this.

Let me "transplant" the scenario of the creation of South Vietnam to the american reality so that people in the US can have a better idea of how illegitimate South Vietnam really was. Just imagine that soon after the founders issued the declaration of independence in 76, Britain, in a desperate effort to save at least part of its 13 american colonies, creates a new country from Maryland to Georgia, rules them directly for 2 years and then carefully selects loyalists to govern it.

Which country would you consider more legitimate?

The one founded by the heroes of the american independence struggle (Washington, Jefferson, etc..) or the one created by Britain? If you reject Britain's puppet as totally illegimate why do you incoherently support South Vietnam, a puppet state created and initially ruled directly by France in the exact same circumstances?

Because, unfortunately, you are a super patriotic american clown who never saw a US ally you didn't like (no matter how illegitimate)?

I thought so.


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## José (Jun 17, 2011)

Let's compare the illegitimacy of South Vietnam with the state founded by the Viet Minh in 45: 



> On 2 September 1945, Ho Chí Minh read the Declaration of Independence of Vietnam, under the name of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam. France accepted Ho's government in March 1946, but at the same time *set up a puppet government for the South in Saigon.
> *
> Ho Chi Minh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Do you notice the complete absence of foreign powers behind the creation of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam, Gadfly?

No chinese communists (they took power only in 49), no soviets (in 45 they were too busy fighting the nazis), *ONLY VIETNAMESE NATIONALISTS*, Ho Chi Minh, Vo Nguyen Giap etc, etc... the true heroes of the decade-long fight against french and japanese colonial domination.

After France refused to recognise Ho Chi Minh as the most representative vietnamese nationalist leader and began setting up the puppet state of South Vietnam, and specially after America's criminal intervention in the internal affairs of Vietnam the nationalist leadership was forced to accept russian and chinese help but that's a whole different story. 

To even suggest that Ho Chi Minh was a russian or chinese stooge because of that help is as absurd as suggesting that the american revolutionaries were french stooges because of the help they got from France.

You have to come to terms with the fact that the vietnamese people *COULDN&#8217;T CARE LESS* whether Ho was a communist, a capitalist or a feudalist, Gadfly.

He was their national independence hero and that was all they cared about.


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## José (Jun 17, 2011)

To add insult to injury, here's the puppet country of South Vietnam recognising their own lack of legitimacy and the fact that Ho was indeed the most legitimate nationalist leader:



> The Geneva Conference specified that elections to unify the country would be scheduled to take place in July 1956, but such elections were never held.
> 
> American policymakers thought *democratic elections in Vietnam would result in an 80% vote for Ho Chi Minh* and therefore blocked elections in the south of the country.
> 
> Background to the Vietnam War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## José (Jun 17, 2011)

> Originally posted by *The Gadfly*
> Is that picture of dead VC combatants supposed to make anyone weep? Sorry, but no. I know what would, though, a picture of the innocent women and children VC just like these raped and tortured to death in village after village, just to keep the peasants they were supposedly "liberating" compliant. No one else here deserves to have to look at the pictures of that I have burned into my brain, but YOU should; you ought to have to look at what your precious little "freedom fighters" did, not to "foreign invaders" but to their own people. You ought to have to look at it, smell it, and hear the screams of those somehow still alive (but dying) after being subjected to it. You ought to have to face the reality of what and who you are praising and mourning for. You ought to have to face it, because they were doing that, long before any American soldier set foot in Vietnam. You ought to have to face it, because the American soldiers you hate so much did NOT go into villages, and torture the inhabitants all night long, the way the VC did. Those dead VC you're asking people here to feel sorry for are the REAL murderers, torturers, and baby-killers of Vietnam, and I mean that in the most literal sense! I wish every sanctimonious bastard like you had to look at that horror. Then you might understand just what we were fighting against. You ought to have to pull the bodies of infants out of the fire they threw them into, the fire they were using to heat the bamboo slivers they tortured everyone from toddlers to the aged with. You ought to have to see every female, from little girls to old women, raped and violated in ways I refuse to even describe here. You ought to have to look at the stuff still imbedded in their bodies. You ought to have to look at women and kids who had every bone in their bodies broken, look at them mutilated in ways so vile you couldn't imagine it, even in your sick fantasies. You ought to have to look at all of it, because until you have, believe me, you only THINK you know what evil truly is. Then again, between your twisted mind, and your hatred for American troops, you might actually get off on it, so long as you could imagine some way to blame us for it. Go crawl back under your rock, you demented hypocrite!



And I'm still waiting for your answer to this question, Gadfly:

How could the Vietnam War, with all its massacres from both sides, indiscriminate bombing of civilian areas, dirty counter-insurgency operations (Phoenix), criminal use of chemical agents that still cause cancer in Vietnam, etc, etc,... 

How could all those brutalities ever happen without France's criminal decision to create a pseudo country in the southern half of Vietnam and America's equally criminal decision to protect that western puppet?

Again and again, you have failed to find anything similar to a reasonable answer and I don't blame your debating skills... you can't find an answer because there is none. Because the whole conflict stems from that colonialist decision to disrespect Vietnam's sovereignty.

If you ask me how the Civil War could have ocurred without the North's decision to maintain the Union I won't be able to find a legitimate answer either. Simply because there is none.

You don't want to confront the fact that you use the violence generated by *YOUR CRIMINAL PRESENCE* in Vietnam as an excuse to justify *YOUR CRIMINAL PRESENCE* in Vietnam, Gadfly.

This is the only way you have to avoid doing what's right:

Getting down on your knees and begging the vietnamese people for forgiveness for all the pain and misery that you and America brought to them.


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## José (Jun 17, 2011)

*THE HISTORY OF VIETNAM* is telling you this, Gadfly.

Isn't it enough all the suffering France and America imposed on that country? Do you really have to add insult by raping their history?

Stop making up excuses to obfuscate the 3 main points of that war:

*1 - South Vietnam was a completely illegitimate, demoralised, shambolic puppet state, artificial country created by colonial France.

2 - The true vietnamese nationalists under the leadership of Vietnam's greatest national 
independence hero, Ho Chi Minh, founded the legitimate state of Vietnam in 1945 way before China or Russia began helping them.

3 - South Vietnam recognised its own lack of legitimacy by refusing to hold national elections to determine the future of the country.*


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## José (Jun 17, 2011)

> Originally posted by *The Gadfly*
> Then you might understand just what we were fighting against.



No, Gadfly, it's you who now understand what you were really fighting against in Vietnam. You fought to suppress the genuine desire of the vietnamese people to be ruled by their most legitimate leader, Ho Chi Minh.

I know it's extremely painful for you to recognise that you wasted so many years of your life supporting a puppet state and inflicting unimaginable suffering on them but you have to face the facts of the History of Vietnam. You desperately cling to any noble reason you can find to justify the Vietnam War so that you dont have to confront this fact.

Sometimes recognising our own mistakes demands more courage than anything you can do on a battlefield. And you don't even need to travel to Hanoi or Ho Chi Minh to do it.

If you, in the silence of your home, kneel down and ask the people of Vietnam for forgiveness it would be your greatest act of heroism, IMHO.


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## Sunni Man (Jun 17, 2011)

Son, that all took place four decades ago.

 It's basically ancient history.

 And is now just a subject talked about in the War College and University history classes 

 All the Vets I know put it behind them a long time ago and are not seeking atonement.

 So your pseudo Vatican proclamations are basically a bunch of idiotic illusions of grandeur.

 Time to get a grip and move on into reality


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## editec (Jun 17, 2011)

Thousands of Americans and millions of Vietnamese died for what, exactly?

It sure in hell was NOT to prevent any dominos from falling, was it?

http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5520.html


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## tonystewart1 (Jun 17, 2011)

This thread scares me to death. Have we as a  people lost our will to live that if we where attacked today we would roll over and take it. People like Jose have never had to defend anything or anybody. I never served, my dad was in Vietnam. Thats all I know about it. He doesnt talk about it and we dont ask. One thing he taught us was that this was a great country and worth defending at any cost.

I am afraid that if WWII happened today we would lose. Genreations of Americans grow up being told that they have the right to free speach without knowing how we got and keep it. 

No vetern of any war has any responsiblity to appologize for anything they done. Being in service to your country is a hard sacrifice judging by the haunted look in my fathers eyes whenever the subject of war is brought up. I thank each and everyone that had the love for country to do it. 

If you think US service men owe anyone an appology then by all means pack your bags and go over there and appologize and dont bother coming back.


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## The Gadfly (Jun 17, 2011)

Jose, whether the Republic of Vietnam was a "legitimate" state in your eyes, it was so far as most of the world was concerned.  The South Vietnamese government (a succession of them) may have been corrupt, but the RVN was widely recognized as a legitimate, sovereign nation.Whatever support Uncle Ho did or did not have in the South, is beside the point; he had his own country (the DRVN,), he used it, and its army, to invade a neighboring sovereign state (the RVN), and obviously there were a lot of people there who DID care very much whether he was a communist or not, because they resisted this invasion. If so many of the people of South Vietnam were pro-Uncle Ho, please explain to me why the VC had to intimidate them with torture and murder. Please explain also just how it was that the vast majority of NLF troops and cadre, were in fact members of the North Vietnamese Army, infiltrated into the South over a period of YEARS. Home grown freedom fighters, my arse; they were invading foreign troops. We know that, because many of them we captured in fact TOLD us, voluntarily, that they were in fact, members of the NVA, and were originally from the DRVN, NOT the RVN! Uncle Ho and Giap may have tried to peddle the fiction that the NLF (the "Viet Cong") were primarily South Vietnamese; as the foregoing shows, that was a bald-faced lie, and believed only by those credulous enough (and sympathetic to the communist cause enough) to believe it, in spite of a MOUNTAIN of evidence to the contrary!

Further, you might try explaining why Ho was seeking and receiving Soviet and Chinese support as early as 1959-60. Just how many U.S. troops were fighting in South Vietnam then? Ho Chi Minh WAS a Soviet puppet, and I remind you that Vietnam today remains a COMMUNIST state.

While, you are at it, what kind of "people's army" has to chain its truck drivers to the steering wheel of their trucks? (That's what the NVA did to their own truck drivers on the Ho Chi Trail, or didn't you know that?). Know why they did that, Jose? Because their morale was shot, and we were kicking NVA ass, that is why. We beat them on the battlefield; the lying reporters and dupes like you notwithstanding. One more "victory" like Tet, and the VC and the NVA would have ceased to be militarily effective (that is generally what happens, when your major operations have a 65% plus casualty rate!).

If the communist regime was so popular, you might try explaining why they threw so many Vietnamese into re-education camps, where they were tortured and butchered. Those are the Vietnamese I feel bad for; they trusted us, they believed in America, they believed America's promises...and we were forced to abandon them to the enemy. I am not ashamed of America, but I* am* ashamed of that callous, cowardly act of national betrayal of our friends and allies that America perpetrated on our behalf. As a man, as a soldier who did his best to defend those people, and as an American, that makes me sick.

The best analogy I can give you for the situation, is this.: let's say you are a ninety-eight pound weakling, and the neighborhood bully next door, who happens to be a little bigger and meaner than you, decides he is going to take your house, rape your wife and kill your kids, unless you become his slave. I'm the big guy on the block, and you yell for help. Now, Jose, what do you think I should do? The bully hasn't touched me (he's afraid to) but he is beating the crap out of you. He also has a couple of large friends egging him on. Should I intervene? Or should I wait until he kills you, and then file a police report? That's what the people of South Vietnam were up against. I have just a slight suspicion, that you would NOT want me so restrained, if it were YOUR door the wolf was growling at.

You know what the real irony is here? The Vietnam vets you hate so much are the very kind of people who would put themselves on the line to help you, when some goon backed you against the wall. We would be the ones standing up for you, if someone tried to haul you off to some gulag, for imaginary crimes. We're the ones who answered the call, when a lot of men said, "Not my problem." That is who and what we really are. And so Jose, I do not particularly care, whether you consider me a willing dupe, an idealistic fool, a mindless jingo, or even a hardened killer. I don't care, because I know who I am, and what I tried to do, I'm OK with that, and I'd do it again. I'm not much for polls, but the ones I've seen say the majority of Vietnam vets agree with me. WE ARE NOT ASHAMED, AND WE HAVE NO REASON TO BE. I don't care, whether you and your friends like that, or not.


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## Sunni Man (Jun 18, 2011)

BulldozerV said:


> Start preparing Americans for the counterattack into Mexico!



 Retard this is a thread about Vietnam.

 If you want to talk about Mexico then start your own thread.

 Otherwise, STFU


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## Bfgrn (Jun 18, 2011)

whitehall said:


> Warrior102 said:
> 
> 
> > What Admin lied? JFK's?
> ...



You really are a brainwashed moron.


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## Trajan (Jun 18, 2011)

José;3762047 said:
			
		

> > Originally posted by *Trajan*
> > the north was fighting in the south for their homes?
> 
> 
> ...


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## José (Jun 19, 2011)

> Originally posted by *tonystewart1*
> This thread scares me to death. Have we as a people lost our will to live that if we where attacked today we would roll over and take it. People like Jose have never had to defend anything or anybody. I never served, my dad was in Vietnam. Thats all I know about it. He doesnt talk about it and we dont ask. One thing he taught us was that this was a great country and worth defending at any cost.
> 
> I am afraid that if WWII happened today we would lose. Genreations of Americans grow up being told that they have the right to free speach without knowing how we got and keep it.
> ...



Just a small correction, tony.

Youre free to disagree with everything I say but I have never said and I will never say that America and the veterans of the Vietnam War should appologize to the people of Vietnam.

You appologize when you miss an appointment or step on someone elses toe.

When you ravage a country in an absurd, unjustified war of aggression *you get down on your knees and beg the victims of your violence to forgive you*.


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## José (Jun 19, 2011)

> Originally posted by *The Gadfly*
> Those are the Vietnamese I feel bad for; they trusted us, they believed in America, they believed America's promises...and we were forced to abandon them to the enemy. I am not ashamed of America, but I am ashamed of that callous, cowardly act of national betrayal of our friends and allies that America perpetrated on our behalf.



I&#8217;d have to be blind or illiterate not to see the obvious emotional link you developed with the puppet state of South Vietnam, Gadfly (to say nothing about your mission, your sense of duty). And, believe me,  I fully understand your perspective. South Vietnam may be a demoralised, artificial state created and maintained by the West under the cold, rational light of Political Science but to you it&#8217;s part of your life experience, part of what you are.

I typed an extensive reply to your attempts to delegitimise the NLF but I just don&#8217;t see the point in posting it anymore. I was hoping to convince you of South Vietnam&#8217;s illegitimacy through rational, historically sound arguments but I cannot debate an emotional attachment.


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## José (Jun 19, 2011)

> Originally posted by *The Gadfly*
> You know what the real irony is here? The Vietnam vets you hate so much are the very kind of people who would put themselves on the line to help you, when some goon backed you against the wall. We would be the ones standing up for you, if someone tried to haul you off to some gulag, for imaginary crimes.



I don&#8217;t hate Vietnam veterans at all I just don&#8217;t have much respect for those who don&#8217;t show any kind of remorse for the brutalisation of an impoverished asian nation that never did anything to America.

Listen, Gadfly, the Board is teeming with super patriotic american clowns like whitehall mocking the suffering of the vietnamese people by basically saying (and unfortunately, you&#8217;re one of them):

&#8220;*If only America had killed a couple thousand more vietnamese we&#8217;d have won that war!!*&#8221;

When I read these cruel, callous remarks my blood boils and I reply with things like &#8220;take a piss in his mouth&#8221;, &#8220;stuff a giant, spiky dildo ** ***** *****&#8221;, etc, etc... But I know I shouldn&#8217;t stoop to the level of those lowlives, the patriotic scum that makes a mockery of the suffering imposed on Vietnam.

So let me come clean about Vietnam veterans:

Regardless of their position on the war, I don&#8217;t think they should be subjected to any humiliation, mistreatment. No cut in benefits etc, etc... 

If I could decide, you, Sunni and uscitizen would live 110 years.

I don&#8217;t fully respect those veterans who did not repent for what they did in Southeast Asia, but believe me, one of them could share an apartment with me for 20 years without knowing what I thought about him if he didn&#8217;t ask me. I don&#8217;t go around telling people what I know they don&#8217;t want to hear... I do it here because it&#8217;s a Message Board, we&#8217;re supposed to express our opinions.  But whether or not I respect an unrepentant Vietnam vet doesn&#8217;t change absolutely anything in his/her life.

The only &#8220;objective&#8221; thing I&#8217;d change in the way Vietnam veterans are treated are the honors that are bestowed on them:

I think the US government on behalf of the american people should seek the forgiveness of Vietnam and stop honoring people who participated in that war. And I also believe the american people should stop thanking them for their service because their &#8220;service&#8221; was to wage a criminal war that destroyed a third world nation that was already dirt poor. You cannot extricate their service from the murder of the vietnamese people. They are one and the same.

No mistreatment, no punishment, no nothing... just an end to official honors and &#8220;thank you for your service&#8221;. No veteran would die just because the US government and a handful of people didn&#8217;t say &#8220;thank you&#8221;.

All in all, I think I have much more respect for Vietnam veterans than a lot of super patriotic american clowns have for the people of Vietnam.


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## Mr. Jones (Jun 26, 2011)

Sunni Man said:


> That is a bit much José.
> 
> Most Vietnam vet like me were drafted.
> 
> ...


I agree with you on most parts but there are individual soldiers that are sick minded murderers who have committed atrocities knowing they can get away with it. Like the ones who kill for sport in Vietnam, Iraq and else where. These kids in Iraq act like they are in a video game, they have been conditioned to not respect life. It is scary to think when these sick fucks come home, and can only get a job in law enforcement what will happen. I bet they would have no problem rounding up their own fellow citizens, torture and kill them. Pure souless killing machines. Those I do not respect and could not care any less if they get blown to bits.
The ones who serve honorably, and have been put in situations of war by the lies of our government and the gutless acquiescence of congress, are who I support and feel bad for.


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## The Gadfly (Jun 26, 2011)

Mr. Jones said:


> Sunni Man said:
> 
> 
> > That is a bit much José.
> ...



So far as I know, the few (and they were very few) soldiers in Vietnam who "killed innocent Vietnamese for sport" or otherwise committed atrocities were tried for it,  by the military, and those convicted were sent to prison. The United States Armed Forces do not encourage or even tolerate wanton murder of non-combatants. Anything you have heard to the contrary is a flat-out lie! Don't you sit there and confuse the vast majority of soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan who are doing their duty professionally, and in accord with the laws of war, applicable regulations and rules of engagement, with the filthy few who do otherwise. Those few individuals are a disgrace, to themselves, their unit, the uniform, and this nation.

I killed quite a few people in Vietnam. Every single one of them was engaged in active combat against us. I am not the least bit sorry about that, I make no apologies for that, nor have I lost one moment's sleep over that aspect of my tour. I did NOT, I damn well did NOT,  EVER, murder any non-combatant, for sport or otherwise. If any soldier under my command had ever done anything like that, I would have drawn up charges on him in a heartbeat! You can call me a cold blooded killer (that's accurate),  but don't you insinuate that I or any other soldier who fights honorably has no regard for innocent human life, or "kills for sport". We didn't do it then, and the vast majority of these troops today aren't doing that now, either!


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