# Sarkozy Says Every French Child Will Learn About the Holocaust



## onedomino (Feb 15, 2008)

Beginning this Fall, each French child will learn about the life of one of the 11,000 French Jewish children murdered in the Holocaust. Some are complaining about the plan, saying it will traumatize children. Given the rising level of anti semitism in Europe (well documented in France: http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/03/23/news/paris.php or http://www.iht.com/articles/2004/10/19/news/paris.php and http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=070212174537.vgjzw1me&show_article=1), Sarko's plan is a good idea.



> *Sarkozy Is Criticized for Holocaust Memorial Plan*
> 
> complete article: http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/02/15/europe/france.php
> 
> ...


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## jillian (Feb 15, 2008)

I am liking Sarkozy more and more.


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## Annie (Feb 15, 2008)

jillian said:


> I am liking Sarkozy more and more.



Me too. His plan is not entirely unlike the much shorter but effective plan in place at the Holocaust Museum in DC.


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## José (Feb 15, 2008)

Bunch of dinosaurs stuck in the past.

The jewish people already enjoys the status of super victims of human history and all the blank checks that go with it.

It's time to start teaching every american student about the life of palestinians killed by "the beacon of democracy in the Middle East."

Maybe they will finally understand one of the main reasons that drives disgruntled arabs to practice building demolition in America.


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## onedomino (Feb 15, 2008)

José;649424 said:
			
		

> Bunch of dinosaurs stuck in the past.
> 
> The jewish people already enjoys the status of super victims of human history and all the blank checks that goes with it.
> 
> ...


Hopefully, Sarkozy's plan will result in fewer people like you in the world. That would be a blessing.


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## jillian (Feb 15, 2008)

onedomino said:


> Hopefully, Sarkozy's plan will result in fewer people like you in the world. That would be a blessing.



Lovely, isn't he? Always such a joy when he's around. *sarcasm off*


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## tigerbob (Feb 15, 2008)

José;649424 said:
			
		

> Bunch of dinosaurs stuck in the past.
> 
> The jewish people already enjoys the status of super victims of human history and all the blank checks that goes with it.
> 
> ...



Wow - you're right!  Maybe if people learnt about that a bit more then they would realise that gassing 6 million unarmed men, women and children was not so bad after all.  Quite reasonable actually.  Of course, those 6 million had nothing to do with Israeli foreign policy since they were gassed before Israel was formed but let's not let chronology get in the way of race hate, huh?

I think it's a great idea.  Imagine what kind of great world we could build for our children if we taught people to hate even more!


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## José (Feb 15, 2008)

> Originally posted by *tigerbob*
> Wow - you're right! Maybe if people learnt about that a bit more then they would realise that gassing 6 million unarmed men, women and children was not so bad after all. Quite reasonable actually. Of course, those 6 million had nothing to do with Israeli foreign policy since they were gassed before Israel was formed but let's not let chronology get in the way of race hate, huh?
> 
> I think it's a great idea. Imagine what kind of great world we could build for our children if we taught people to hate even more!



Just what I needed!!

Another *"what the hell is a palestinian refugee" clown* to bother me with ignorant remarks about an issue they know shit about.

I'm truly blessed!


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## tigerbob (Feb 15, 2008)

José;649454 said:
			
		

> Just what I needed!!
> 
> Another *"what the hell is a palestinian refugee" clown* to bother me with ignorant remarks about an issue they know shit about.
> 
> I'm truly blessed!



Glad to hear it.  I'll keep blessing you with my shit every time I think you write some.

Well, not every time.  You're not _that_ important.


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## Shogun (Feb 18, 2008)

the irony of this being that the same apathy that allowed so many jews to die during the holocaust is the same apathy that makes a zionist say "Israel, right or wrong"


I wonder if Sarkozy has any interest in extending the human lesson of the holocaust to non-jews behind the modern aparthied wall.  


who am I kidding.. jewish death is waaaaaaaaay more significant than everyone else.  duh.


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## jillian (Feb 18, 2008)

Shogun said:


> the irony of this being that the same apathy that allowed so many jews to die during the holocaust is the same apathy that makes a zionist say "Israel, right or wrong"
> 
> 
> I wonder if Sarkozy has any interest in extending the human lesson of the holocaust to non-jews behind the modern aparthied wall.
> ...



Who are you really kidding, hon? It isn't significant to you at all.... and you can pretend otherwise all you want.

Now, go ahead, call me a "zionist jew" again... ah... the horror. I guess it's better than being called a **** bitch like WJ did.


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## eots (Feb 18, 2008)

José;649424 said:
			
		

> Bunch of dinosaurs stuck in the past.
> 
> The jewish people already enjoys the status of super victims of human history and all the blank checks that go with it.
> 
> ...



dudes got a point...


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## Shogun (Feb 18, 2008)

The difference between me and WJ, which you refuse to acknowledge, is that I've learned the lesson of the holocaust without having to insist that its potential only applies to jews;  Human travesties are human travesties despite ethnicity.  Were it only the case that jews have been the only race to be leaned on.

I realize that falling over yourself and acting like Im going to throw you down a well is easier than comprehending my perspective so feel free to start passing out the Scarlet A's at any time.


ps, reading Frank's diary didn't make the horror of the holocaust any more obvious than the piles of skeletal bodies.  Don't let that keep you from being worshipped though.  You know, chosen race and all.


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## jillian (Feb 18, 2008)

Oh, I "comprehend" your position bubbalah... it's just you're deluding yourself. You think you're different from WJ, but the difference... he's honest about what he is. He pulls no punches about it and makes no pretense about it being for the 'greater good' or out of some pretend moral high ground.

Either way, you both deal in stereotypes of a nature that got my people tossed and killed throughout history... and continuing to spew them when in this day and age you should know better (you know, like the whole pretend dual loyalty argument) is dangerous.

And, you might want to ask yourself why you saw the OP, which is something that Sarkozy's doing that's a good thing, as a negative that deserved to be viewed in the context of your grand jewish conspiracy. Me? I saw it as something that maybe keeps jews from getting dead... same as I would have seen a program encouraging tolerance for muslims here after 9.11.


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## Diuretic (Feb 18, 2008)

History aka the study of the past.  Useful because it informs us about the present.  It's also good to study just for its own sake.  Caution - subject to revisionism.  Critical faculties needed when studying history.  Primary evidentiary documents preferred - like this - 

http://www.annefrank.com/1_exhibitions.htm

Politics aka the study of shenanigans.  Useful because it informs us about what's really going on if we approach it critically.  By so doing we can avoid the bullshit that politicians will fling at us.

Government aka the strongest political party in a democracy (or the only one in authoritarian and totalitarian states) which gets to set policy for the state.  Governments can be changed by elections, whereby policy also changes.

Israel - democracy.  Has a government which can be changed.  Present party forming government - Kadima.  Other parties - hah more than you can find at mardi gras in New Orleans.  Vibrant democracy.  Parties range from those with a zionist perspective to those who have a green-left perspective and while not zionist obviously defend Israel's right to exist.

Holocaust/shoah - historical fact, regardless of the attempts by hysterical revisionists to deny it happened (see "history" above and reference to critical faculties).  Also an atrocity.  

Atrocities - very common among humans.

Palestine - done over by the western powers after WWI when the Ottoman Empire was carved up without any thought about the legacy they created.

Current situation - needs to be resolved without appeals to victimhood on either side.


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## Shogun (Feb 18, 2008)

*Oh, I "comprehend" your position bubbalah... it's just you're deluding yourself. You think you're different from WJ, but the difference... he's honest about what he is. He pulls no punches about it and makes no pretense about it being for the 'greater good' or out of some pretend moral high ground.*

Clearly, you are in a position to know who is deluding whom.  I would challenge you to quote me making the slightest antisemite statement but we both know that evidence has never stopped you from whipping out the Scarlet A.  Indeed, I am different from WJ insomuch that humanity is my focus while his and yours are a concern specific to a particular ethnicity.  I don't pull punches and my only pretense is trying to keep people like you honest about a topic long enough to fend off the labels.  Indeed, mine is the moral highground.  Feel free to label common humanity antisemetic while such ignores the snapping fingers of a self-righteous chosen looking for her proper attention from the lowly goyim.



*Either way, you both deal in stereotypes of a nature that got my people tossed and killed throughout history... and continuing to spew them when in this day and age you should know better (you know, like the whole pretend dual loyalty argument) is dangerous.*

Maybe someone who is as quick to assume that all pals have a kassam rocket up their ass shouldn't be the one to start pointing fingers at those who use stereotypes?  I mean, I realize that being chosen has its perks but come on..  Indeed, between the two of us IM the one know can admit that individuals of any ethnicity are not reflective of the population.  You, dearest jill, only apply that standard as long as it benefits your team jersey.  But, feel free to insist that I want to drink hebrew blood while generalizing pals...  It's probably not ironic or anything.

The duel loyalty is dangerous... for the people who hold loyalty to two nations.  You wanna be American?  great!  I have no problem with our jewish population of AMERICANS.  Wanna be israeli?  Great!  try not to displace too many arabs on your trip back home.  The bottom line is that America is not the israeli pitbull at the end of a leash.  Im not interested in taking a bullet for israel if the sum total concern that you people can achieve is what we see today.  Was the holocaust horrible?  I'll say it over and over: yes.  but the way you will enable israel to treat pals like shit convey that the lesson of the holocaust was NOT learned by the very people who lived it.

Now, don't let that get in the way of crying that im looming over you like an actual antisemite.  It probably strengthens the accusation every time you use it in a frivolous manner.

*

And, you might want to ask yourself why you saw the OP, which is something that Sarkozy's doing that's a good thing, as a negative that deserved to be viewed in the context of your grand jewish conspiracy. Me? I saw it as something that maybe keeps jews from getting dead... same as I would have seen a program encouraging tolerance for muslims here after 9.11.*


Funny, the criteria for humanity is not weather it is any specific identity that dies.  It's unfortunate that you seem to think you have a special place in history as the worlds most picked on people.  Im sure the ghosts of native Americans get a good laugh at that.  Do we make kids learn the story of each individual indian kid in hopes that we will never use manifest destiny to carve out a nation?  well, a nation was carved alright...  We didn't care about the kids though.

And no, the lesson of the holocaust, like I said, stands on it's own merits without having to put jews on a pedestal to worship.  It won't foster empathy for the jews because no one is left to take responsibility MUCH LIKE black history month doesn't make blacks integrate into white culture any quicker.  It causes the very reaction you seek to miss.  But, hey, white people are nazi's anyway even if your people have enjoyed themselves in the US despite not having a zion to fall back on, eh?  I hear actual western nations are consistent like that.


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## Stefan (Jul 14, 2008)

Trying to understand the Holocaust is never a bad idea. I'm not quite sure if Sarkozy's approach is the best way, but it is better than nothing. The engagement on the Holocaust can have bad side effects, however. In Germany, many people are annoyed by the permanent reminding of the crimes of their grandfathers and don't want to hear anymore of it. In my opinion, this is because it got a purely matter of duty to bespeak the matter in the same phrases over and over. People know that 6 million jews died in the Holocaust, but they lost any sense what that MEANS, if you get my point.


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## Diuretic (Jul 14, 2008)

For me the point of being reminded is that it could have happened anywhere committed by an group of humans on another group of humans.  The second point is that it could happen again, anywhere, where a group of humans commit genocide on another group of humans.  

Germans might not need a reminder but I can assure you that plenty of other nations need a nudge every now and again.


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## Shogun (Jul 14, 2008)

Yea, and a subscription to the jpost, apparently.


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## Diuretic (Jul 14, 2008)

I like Ha'aretz better but that's just me.


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## Shogun (Jul 14, 2008)

Did you ever pay attention to the absolute blackout of the last video of isreali settlers whupping the shit out of pals by the jpost?  Apparently, Sarkozy's lesson plan has some rather significant Astrix's in the footnotes.


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## Gungnir (Jul 14, 2008)

What a waste of tax money.


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## Stefan (Jul 14, 2008)

@Diuretic: In my opinion, Germans need reminders, too. I just say the way these reminders are given is not the best.


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## Diuretic (Jul 14, 2008)

Shogun said:


> Did you ever pay attention to the absolute blackout of the last video of isreali settlers whupping the shit out of pals by the jpost?  Apparently, Sarkozy's lesson plan has some rather significant Astrix's in the footnotes.



Not aware of any of that.


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## Diuretic (Jul 14, 2008)

Stefan said:


> @Diuretic: In my opinion, Germans need reminders, too. I just say the way these reminders are given is not the best.



If there's a guilt trip involved Stefan then that will eventually work against itself.  In my country (Australia) we recently formally acknowledged our treatment of indigenous people during the early colonisation and the aftermath.  But if our government kept us on a guilt trip we would eventually tell them to stuff it.


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## Wow (Jul 14, 2008)

The entire EU needs anger management classes for all types of hatred.


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## Annie (Jul 14, 2008)

WTF is the holocaust and why should any frenchie kid know about it? It's 2008, not 1940 something. Don't we all know Islam is on the rise and Judaism has taken the road of Latin and such?


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## Steerpike (Jul 14, 2008)

While they're at it, they should teach them who those white crosses nears the beach belong to.


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## Diuretic (Jul 14, 2008)

And who do they belong to?


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## Steerpike (Jul 14, 2008)

Diuretic said:


> And who do they belong to?



Mostly American, British, and Canadian soldiers, depending on which cemetery you're in.


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## Diuretic (Jul 14, 2008)

Steerpike said:


> Mostly American, British, and Canadian soldiers, depending on which cemetery you're in.



And I would assume that the French are still aware of that.  If their continuing regard for the sacrifice of the allies on the Western Front in WWI is any indicator then that awareness is very strong.


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## Steerpike (Jul 14, 2008)

Diuretic said:


> And I would assume that the French are still aware of that.  If their continuing regard for the sacrifice of the allies on the Western Front in WWI is any indicator then that awareness is very strong.



No doubt.  The graveyards are quite well kept.


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## Diuretic (Jul 14, 2008)

Steerpike said:


> No doubt.  The graveyards are quite well kept.



And remembered - Villers-Bretonneux - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## dilloduck (Jul 14, 2008)

jillian said:


> I am liking Sarkozy more and more.



Of course, he's devoting himself and  to jews. He's not planning on making it an issue genocide in general. Screw all the other genocides. Just pay attention to the jewish one. Do you have any idea how this backfires ?????


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## Charles_Main (Jul 15, 2008)

onedomino said:


> Beginning this Fall, each French child will learn about the life of one of the 11,000 French Jewish children murdered in the Holocaust. Some are complaining about the plan, saying it will traumatize children. Given the rising level of anti semitism in Europe (well documented in France: Anti-Semitism at ground level in France - International Herald Tribune or Wave of anti-Semitism called threat to France - International Herald Tribune and France doomed to anti-Semitism: archbishop, Sarko's plan is a good idea.



Good for him, Anti Jewish BS has been making a comeback all over Europe, I am glad to see him doing something about it.


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## Diuretic (Jul 15, 2008)

Charles_Main said:


> Good for him, Anti Jewish BS has been making a comeback all over Europe, I am glad to see him doing something about it.



Comeback?  You mean it went away at all?


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## Stefan (Jul 15, 2008)

@Diuretic: This "guilt trip", as you call it, is just what I mean. That's the problem. Plus, there are serious restrictions on freedom of speach concerning the matter, and the political-correctness-watchers are always there to bring you down if you say anything they don't like.


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## Diuretic (Jul 15, 2008)

As in it's against the criminal law in Germany to be a holocaust denier?  

I always think that the criminal law is blunt instrument when dealing with holocaust deniers.  Ridicule works for me.  But obviously there's a reason for the law's existence.


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## editec (Jul 15, 2008)

Of course there is merit to helping children understand what Jewish children went through as a result of the holocaust. Who can deny that?

However..

There would be tremendous merit to helping children understand what non-Jewish children went through (and were told at the time about it) as those children witnessed the holocaust from the other side of the wire.

Here's why I say this..

If the point of teaching children about the holocaust is to help them prevent another one (and I hope that is its point), *then they REALLY need to know how the passive citizen witnessing this horrible crime was talked into standing by and doing nothing while they saw their neighbors being carted off to the camps!*

You see, if anyone becomes a victim of this sort of crime, they really don't need lessons in how to object to it. Nobody really needs lessons is why they won't like being starved and beaten and made slaves and gassed to death. 

*The lesson children have to learn is really how to stand up prejudice and injstice that isn't effecting them, but that they are a part of even if only passively.*

*In other words, we need to teach children how to RECOGNIZE NAD STAND UP TO INJUSTICE when they are NOT its intended target, and the people in charge are telling them that this is okay.*


And let me tell you something folks...it isn't just the French children who need those lessons.

A casual perusal of this board indicates to me that _many people here_ have difficulty indentifying injustice _if it's not happening to them or theirs._

_*The rush to blame the victim is just as evident in the posts on this board as it was among the German people in 1940, believe me.*_


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## Diuretic (Jul 15, 2008)

Maybe Sarkozy wants to make the point that some French people were only too happy to hand over their Jewish neighbours to the authorities?  And yet for all of that the _Maquis_, ordinary people enjoined in resistance against the Nazis, protected, among others, Jews.

It's not a clear cut issue of course.  That's why it needs careful analysis and if children are being taught the issues they need to have those issues taught so that they understand what really happened and not just a postcard view of history.


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## Ravi (Jul 15, 2008)

editec said:


> Of course there is merit to helping children understand what Jewish children went through as a result of the holocaust. Who can deny that?
> 
> However..
> 
> ...



Excellent post.


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## Diuretic (Jul 15, 2008)

Hear, hear.


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## Stefan (Jul 15, 2008)

@Diuretic: Yes, it is against the law in Germany (and some other European countries, too) to deny the Holocaust has happened. But that is not really the bad point; the bad point is, that anti-semitism or rather the blame of being anti-semitic has become a political weapon.


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## Diuretic (Jul 15, 2008)

Stefan said:


> @Diuretic: Yes, it is against the law in Germany (and some other European countries, too) to deny the Holocaust has happened. But that is not really the bad point; the bad point is, that anti-semitism or rather the blame of being anti-semitic has become a political weapon.



Stefan - for me at least I distinguish between pure anti-Semitism aka anti-Jewish behaviour and what could be seen as a _reasonable _critique of the policies of the government of Israel. 

Attacking a person, organisation, building, cemetery or whatever because people follow Judaism as a religion is, for me, extremely repugnant.  

But for me critiquing the policies of the government of Israel is not anti-Semitic.  Well, as long as the critique is on policy and not religious/racial/ethnic origins.


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## Charles_Main (Jul 15, 2008)

Diuretic said:


> Stefan - for me at least I distinguish between pure anti-Semitism aka anti-Jewish behaviour and what could be seen as a _reasonable _critique of the policies of the government of Israel.
> 
> Attacking a person, organisation, building, cemetery or whatever because people follow Judaism as a religion is, for me, extremely repugnant.
> 
> But for me critiquing the policies of the government of Israel is not anti-Semitic.  Well, as long as the critique is on policy and not religious/racial/ethnic origins.



Clearly one should be able to question Israel and not be called anti_Semitic Israel is a country, Jews are a people. I question Israel all the time. However many people attack Israel by lumping them all into the same zionist group, which is far from the reality of the people of Israel.


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## Shogun (Jul 15, 2008)

Diuretic said:


> Stefan - for me at least I distinguish between pure anti-Semitism aka anti-Jewish behaviour and what could be seen as a _reasonable _critique of the policies of the government of Israel.
> 
> Attacking a person, organisation, building, cemetery or whatever because people follow Judaism as a religion is, for me, extremely repugnant.
> *
> But for me critiquing the policies of the government of Israel is not anti-Semitic.  Well, as long as the critique is on policy and not religious/racial/ethnic origins.*



feel free to jump over to the "why i dont post here" thread and point that out


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## Stefan (Jul 15, 2008)

Diuretic, the difference you pointed out is just the problem I meant.


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## jillian (Jul 15, 2008)

Diuretic said:


> Stefan - for me at least I distinguish between pure anti-Semitism aka anti-Jewish behaviour and what could be seen as a _reasonable _critique of the policies of the government of Israel.
> 
> Attacking a person, organisation, building, cemetery or whatever because people follow Judaism as a religion is, for me, extremely repugnant.
> 
> But for me critiquing the policies of the government of Israel is not anti-Semitic.  Well, as long as the critique is on policy and not religious/racial/ethnic origins.



Criticism of Israel crosses over the anti-semitism line when people pretend that Israel is not a legitimate country; when they want a one state solution where jews are subjugated by Palestinians and no longer have their own state; or when Israel is compared to nazi or apartheid regimes....

beyond that, I think most have issues on which they'd agree and disagree or at least open the issues for discussion. For myself, I won't discuss those things with anyone who thinks Israel shouldn't exist because their agenda is not resolution; it's destruction.


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## Diuretic (Jul 15, 2008)

Shogun said:


> feel free to jump over to the "why i dont post here" thread and point that out



I was going to jump in but it turned into such a slugfest that I don't know if there's any point in it really.


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## Diuretic (Jul 15, 2008)

jillian said:


> Criticism of Israel crosses over the anti-semitism line when people pretend that Israel is not a legitimate country; when they want a one state solution where jews are subjugated by Palestinians and no longer have their own state; or when Israel is compared to nazi or apartheid regimes....
> 
> beyond that, I think most have issues on which they'd agree and disagree or at least open the issues for discussion. For myself, I won't discuss those things with anyone who thinks Israel shouldn't exist because their agenda is not resolution; it's destruction.



It seems to me that anyone who involves themselves in that debate needs to proceed from the premise that Israel isn't going to be dissolved.  

I must admit I don't know a lot - wait, let me rephrase that - I know nothing about the idea of a one state solution because it seems to me that means the extinguishing of a country.  

I can't see any discussion going forward if that's the first premise.  But it seems to me that the Palestians should have their own country.  I thought the debate (the international debate) would be about how that happens.  But that's probably me being naieve or simplistic or both.


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## dilloduck (Jul 15, 2008)

jillian said:


> Criticism of Israel crosses over the anti-semitism line when people pretend that Israel is not a legitimate country; when they want a one state solution where jews are subjugated by Palestinians and no longer have their own state; or when Israel is compared to nazi or apartheid regimes....
> 
> beyond that, I think most have issues on which they'd agree and disagree or at least open the issues for discussion. For myself, I won't discuss those things with anyone who thinks Israel shouldn't exist because their agenda is not resolution; it's destruction.



When does criticism of a jew cross over into anti-semitism ?


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## Ravi (Jul 15, 2008)

dilloduck said:


> When does criticism of a jew cross over into anti-semitism ?



When you spell it jooooooo like Shog does, maybe.


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## dilloduck (Jul 15, 2008)

Ravi said:


> When you spell it jooooooo like Shog does, maybe.



Well at least you gave it a shot.


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## dilloduck (Jul 15, 2008)

dilloduck said:


> Well at least you gave it a shot.



Actually the only ONE who gave it a shot. It must be a tough question, huh?


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## Ravi (Jul 15, 2008)

It is a tough question, not just deciding what is anti-semitic, but deciding anything that is racist. It all boils down to intent, and intent is really hard to determine.

Where do you think the line is?


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## dilloduck (Jul 15, 2008)

Ravi said:


> It is a tough question, not just deciding what is anti-semitic, but deciding anything that is racist. It all boils down to intent, and intent is really hard to determine.
> 
> Where do you think the line is?



I have no clue but I know I have been called a racist, sexist, bigot etc etc when that was the last thing I intended. You pretty much get nailed if you say something negative about a person who can claim some type of oppressed "status" even if your criticism doesn't have the least bit of relevence to said "status". 
I could rant and rave about how much I hate Mel Brooks (for an example) and sure as shit I would be called anti-semitic. It's cliched, overused and a chicken shit way to avoid talking with people about "special" topics.


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## Ravi (Jul 15, 2008)

I know, just today I was told that I actually hate white males. That was somewhat of a surprise. It'd be great if we could have a defining line, but it probably isn't possible.

On the plus side, I compared Obama to a monkey today and no one seemed to mind. 

Maybe that's progress.


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## dilloduck (Jul 15, 2008)

Ravi said:


> I know, just today I was told that I actually hate white males. That was somewhat of a surprise. It'd be great if we could have a defining line, but it probably isn't possible.
> 
> On the plus side, I compared Obama to a monkey today and no one seemed to mind.
> 
> Maybe that's progress.



It all depends on who you are talking to and who may read what you write. It's the lazy man's (person's ) way of debating. If you get called racist etc etc it only means the other person has no clue on how to reasonably deal with your POV. What you get called usually says little about you but a hell of a lot about the name caller.


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## jillian (Jul 15, 2008)

dilloduck said:


> When does criticism of a jew cross over into anti-semitism ?



I thought I was pretty clear... comparing jews to nazis; comparing zionism to apartheid; and wanting a single state solution where jews get to get killed by more arabs who've promised they WILL kill them.

The line between disagreeing with certain Israeli policies and thinly veiled anti-semitism really isn't that difficult to find... particularly when the person expressing the anti-semitic sentiments also spews old racial stereotypes like "jews run everything"; or "jews have dual loyalty" or bemoan the existence of the wall on Israel's side, but couldn't care less about Egypt's wall keeping the pals away from THEIR country. Oh...and demonizing AIPAC while not caring about CAIR... all pretty good indications about who one is dealing with.


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## dilloduck (Jul 15, 2008)

jillian said:


> I thought I was pretty clear... comparing jews to nazis; comparing zionism to apartheid; and wanting a single state solution where jews get to get killed by more arabs who've promised they WILL kill them.
> 
> The line between disagreeing with certain Israeli policies and thinly veiled anti-semitism really isn't that difficult to find... particularly when the person expressing the anti-semitic sentiments also spews old racial stereotypes like "jews run everything"; or "jews have dual loyalty" or bemoan the existence of the wall on Israel's side, but couldn't care less about Egypt's wall keeping the pals away from THEIR country. Oh...and demonizing AIPAC while not caring about CAIR... all pretty good indications about who one is dealing with.



no--you weren't clear at all.



> Criticism of Israel crosses over the anti-semitism



Being critical of Israel is not the same as criticizing a jew.


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## jillian (Jul 15, 2008)

dilloduck said:


> no--you weren't clear at all.



yes. i was.



> Being critical of Israel is not the same as criticizing a jew.



And you got that from what I said? Try again.


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## dilloduck (Jul 15, 2008)

jillian said:


> yes. i was.
> 
> 
> 
> And you got that from what I said? Try again.



pay attention-----you descibed the line where saying negative things about the State of Israel crosses into anti-semetism.  My question was when does saying something negative about a jew cross into anti-semitism. Are you now going to claim that a jew and the State of Israel are one in the same ?? No wonder the poor guy was so paranoid to participate.


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## Stefan (Jul 16, 2008)

If I criticize a Jew I criticize a Jew - no one would say I'm anti-christian if I criticize a christian. It's anti-semitic if I say "Hey, you're a shitbag because you're a Jew", but it's no anti-semitism if I say "Hey, you're an asshole kicking that guy's butt".


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## editec (Jul 16, 2008)

Diuretic said:


> Maybe Sarkozy wants to make the point that some French people were only too happy to hand over their Jewish neighbours to the authorities? And yet for all of that the _Maquis_, ordinary people enjoined in resistance against the Nazis, protected, among others, Jews.


 
Yeah, then the lesson needs to include how PROPAGANDA AND INTIMIDATION convinced decent  people to go along (even if as non participants) in this crime against humanity.



> It's not a clear cut issue of course. That's why it needs careful analysis and if children are being taught the issues they need to have those issues taught so that they understand what really happened and not just a postcard view of history.


 
The solution to governments going rogue to not to titillate us with what they did, but how they got away with it.

the Jews were systematically stripped of one right after the other.

The frogs in a pot of warming water system until the very end.

That NEEDS to be explained to people in a way that makes them STOP thinking

That can never happen to me.  Why didn't the jews fight back? That can never happen here.

BULLSHIT, it DID happen here to Blacks and Indians, and we ALL know it.


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## editec (Jul 16, 2008)

Stefan said:


> @Diuretic: Yes, it is against the law in Germany (and some other European countries, too) to deny the Holocaust has happened. But that is not really the bad point; the bad point is, that anti-semitism or rather the blame of being anti-semitic has become a political weapon.


 
Yes, I agree Stefan, BUT NOT in this thread.  Jesus Christ on a Crutch, can we discuss these issues without bring in our anger about what happened in other threads?

This is an EXCELLENT starting point for some of us giving up some of our anger and paranoia if we do.

Because it isn't the victims or victimization we really need to understand, i*t's the passivity of good soldiers who only ordered the trucks.*


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## Diuretic (Jul 16, 2008)

editec said:


> Yeah, then the lesson needs to include how PROPAGANDA AND INTIMIDATION convinced decent  people to go along (even if as non participants) in this crime against humanity.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What needs to be emphasised is that it can happen anywhere and at any time and that no human society is immune from this tendency or somehow morally above it.  It's simple persecution.  The dominant group persecutes a smaller group in a society.  It's part of human nature and it's a part we have to be on guard against and which we need to try and overcome.  It's not just freedom of the majority that's protected by eternal vigilance, we have to keep an eye on what's happening in all parts of a society to make sure persecution doesn't occur.  Because, given the right environment, it will happen.


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## editec (Jul 16, 2008)

jillian said:


> I thought I was pretty clear... comparing jews to nazis;
> 
> Offensive.  Can't blame any Jew for seeing red when that is done
> 
> ...


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## Shogun (Jul 16, 2008)

jillian said:


> yes. i was.
> 
> 
> 
> And you got that from what I said? Try again.



yes.  

every time you respond with the scarlet letter, in fact, you prove that you are incapable of anything more profound.


now go ahead and call me an antisemite for pointing this out.


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## dilloduck (Jul 16, 2008)

jillian said:


> I thought I was pretty clear... comparing jews to nazis; comparing zionism to apartheid; and wanting a single state solution where jews get to get killed by more arabs who've promised they WILL kill them.
> 
> The line between disagreeing with certain Israeli policies and thinly veiled anti-semitism really isn't that difficult to find... particularly when the person expressing the anti-semitic sentiments also spews old racial stereotypes like "jews run everything"; or "jews have dual loyalty" or bemoan the existence of the wall on Israel's side, but couldn't care less about Egypt's wall keeping the pals away from THEIR country. Oh...and demonizing AIPAC while not caring about CAIR... all pretty good indications about who one is dealing with.



You just hate gentiles. We can pick one out a mile away. Don't try to deny it by claiming some of you best friends are gentiles either. We know that old cliche too.


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## Wow (Jul 16, 2008)

Sarkozy is trying to save France from their decline into Liberal hatred and moral decay.


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## dilloduck (Jul 16, 2008)

Wow said:


> Sarkozy is trying to save France from their decline into Liberal hatred and moral decay.



Do you think they will all get tattoos also ?? It may be backfire tho cause tats are sorta popular these days.


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## Wow (Jul 17, 2008)

dilloduck said:


> Do you think they will all get tattoos also ?? It may be backfire tho cause tats are sorta popular these days.


I have a tattoo on my ass, it says "Kiss my ass"


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## dilloduck (Jul 17, 2008)

Wow said:


> I have a tattoo on my ass, it says "Kiss my ass"



Is it effective ?


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## editec (Jul 17, 2008)

jillian said:


> Criticism of Israel crosses over the anti-semitism line when people pretend that Israel is not a legitimate country; when they want a one state solution where jews are subjugated by Palestinians and no longer have their own state; or when Israel is compared to nazi or apartheid regimes....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## editec (Jul 17, 2008)

Diuretic said:


> What needs to be emphasised is that it can happen anywhere and at any time and that no human society is immune from this tendency or somehow morally above it. It's simple persecution. The dominant group persecutes a smaller group in a society. It's part of human nature and it's a part we have to be on guard against and which we need to try and overcome. It's not just freedom of the majority that's protected by eternal vigilance, we have to keep an eye on what's happening in all parts of a society to make sure persecution doesn't occur. Because, given the right environment, it will happen.


 

_Yup!_


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## editec (Jul 17, 2008)

dilloduck said:


> It all depends on who you are talking to and who may read what you write. It's the lazy man's (person's ) way of debating. If you get called racist etc etc it only means the other person has no clue on how to reasonably deal with your POV. What you get called usually says little about you but a hell of a lot about the name caller.


 
_Yup!_


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## dilloduck (Jul 17, 2008)

editec said:


> _Yup!_



Perhaps using a generic model instead of Jewish one would be far more effective in getting that message across.


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## editec (Jul 17, 2008)

The ongoing LIE here is that some of the obvious Jew-Haters on this board think they can use the "historic injustice" argument to beat up Isreal, while giving the rest of humanity a total pass on its 10,000 year history of establishing their homelands by stealing their land from somebody else.

Some of the partisans for Isreal here think that anyone who acknowledges that Isreal's existence was another example of mankind's land theft must therefore hate Jews or at least hate Isreal.

They are blinded by their own ethnocentrism which they are accusing others of.


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## dilloduck (Jul 17, 2008)

editec said:


> The ongoing LIE here is that some of the obvious Jew-Haters on this board think they can use the "historic injustice" argument to beat up Isreal, while giving the rest of humanity a total pass on its 10,000 year history of establishing their homelands by stealing their land from somebody else.
> 
> Some of the partisans for Isreal here think that anyone who acknowledges that Isreal's existence was another example of mankind's land theft must therefore hate Jews or at least hate Isreal.
> 
> They are blinded by their own ethnocentrism which they are accusing others of.



 I don't see any obvious jew haters. Just those who disagree with the jewish explanation of how and why things are a violent and crazy there.


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## Dr Grump (Jul 17, 2008)

dilloduck said:


> I don't see any obvious jew haters. Just those who disagree with the jewish explanation of how and why things are a violent and crazy there.



You've never said a pro-Jew thing in your life....that's telling....

BTW, haven't you got another board to go to??


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## Shogun (Jul 17, 2008)

You've known Dillo his entire life?  wow.  You should really get your own 900 number.



ETHNOCENTRISM, edetic?  What ethnicity are you suggesting that im propping up as superior?  


eth·no·cen·trism  (thn-sntrzm)
n.
1. Belief in the superiority of one's own ethnic group.
2. Overriding concern with race.


Im certainly not muslim.  Im not a pali. Praytel, WHO is putting RACE on the forefront by insisting on an ETHNIC standard here?  I think you have no arguement other than falling back on good ole trusty while settling in with the same ole comfy Group Think that has allowed LOTS of horrible shit to happen in the name of supposedly noble purposes that appeal to a SAMPLE of the global population.
*
did you ever answer as to weather you are as horrified by a muslim israeli PM as the others are?  Tell me, what ethnicity does the US get to nix off of the list of applied equality?*


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## Epsilon Delta (Jul 17, 2008)

Hmmm, I wonder when the US and the rest of the continent will implement a similar policy on the annihilation of the First Nations, or Turkey on the Armenian Genocide, or Israel on the Occupation of Palestine, or...


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## Ravi (Jul 17, 2008)

Maybe I'm crazy, but I always thought that Jews and Arabs shared the same ethnic background. And Muslim wasn't an ethnic group.


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## Wow (Jul 17, 2008)

Epsilon Delta said:


> Hmmm, I wonder when the US and the rest of the continent will implement a similar policy on the annihilation of the First Nations, or Turkey on the Armenian Genocide, or Israel on the Occupation of Palestine, or...


The Crow and Comanche Indians aided the Union troops in killing the Lakotas.
The Lakotas were the terrorists of the Indian nations.

Of course, Indians killed many more Indians than did the Union troops.

We can't educate white people about these facts because white people need to feel guilty so they will give away their hard earned wealth to uneducated moochers.


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## Wow (Jul 17, 2008)

Sarkozy is going to force Liberals to learn the truth and to put aside their racism, sexism and deep rooted bigotry. Hahahahaha

Liberals just do not want to join the rest of us in the 21st century.


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## Diuretic (Jul 17, 2008)

Wow said:


> Sarkozy is going to force Liberals to learn the truth and to put aside their racism, sexism and deep rooted bigotry. Hahahahaha
> 
> Liberals just do not want to join the rest of us in the 21st century.



Sarkozy is going to find he has to listen to the people of France.  They will tell him what they want.  That's democracy.  You remember how that works don't you?


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## Wow (Jul 17, 2008)

Diuretic said:


> Sarkozy is going to find he has to listen to the people of France.  They will tell him what they want.  That's democracy.  You remember how that works don't you?


I watched Sarkozy's Presidential debates.

Sarkozy was elected on a conservative agenda that would be labeled Nazism in the US Liberal world.

He outlined all of these things in the debates, as his Liberal opponent keep pushing her socialist sexist agenda.

What more can be said?


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## Epsilon Delta (Jul 17, 2008)

Wow said:


> The Crow and Comanche Indians aided the Union troops in killing the Lakotas.
> The Lakotas were the terrorists of the Indian nations.
> 
> Of course, Indians killed many more Indians than did the Union troops.
> ...



So Goebbels and Hitler had "jewish blood". It doesn't make any difference that some Natives aided the invading Europeans before they themselves where slaughtered, not to mentioned conducted early chemical war on. It's also not just something that happened in the US. Every government from Canada to Chile did it's part, from the Trail of Tears to the Conquest of the Desert in Argentina, and we're going to have to live with that history of bloodshed.

By the way, you are a racist, plain and simple. I don't like to toss the term around, but referring to an entire population as "uneducated moochers" is plain and simple racism.


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## Wow (Jul 17, 2008)

Epsilon Delta said:


> So Goebbels and Hitler had "jewish blood". It doesn't make any difference that some Natives aided the invading Europeans before they themselves where slaughtered, not to mentioned conducted early chemical war on. It's also not just something that happened in the US. Every government from Canada to Chile did it's part, from the Trail of Tears to the Conquest of the Desert in Argentina, and we're going to have to live with that history of bloodshed.
> 
> By the way, you are a racist, plain and simple. I don't like to toss the term around, but referring to an entire population as "uneducated moochers" is plain and simple racism.


I never said American Indians were uneducated moochers, but you did! lol
Hahahaha you think American Indians are uneducated moochers! 

I was referring to those people (All non-whites and whites) that think those with wealth should feel guilty and give up their money! 

I hate to pop your racist bubble but there are Indians that think other Indians should give up their wealth through guilt.

Greed is blind to skin color but uneducated moochers use racism to get free money.


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## Epsilon Delta (Jul 18, 2008)

Wow said:


> I never said American Indians were uneducated moochers, but you did! lol
> Hahahaha you think American Indians are uneducated moochers!
> 
> I was referring to those people (All non-whites and whites) that think those with wealth should feel guilty and give up their money!
> ...



Ok, so let's see...

I talk about several genocides that have happened around the world... then you say the natives killed natives... You focus exclusively on Native Americans in my posts, and then you say, in sarcasm that, "*white people * need to feel guilty so they give away their hard earned wealth to uneducated moochers". I'm going to need you to clarify how, exactly, you were referring to *white people* giving away their wealth and then not expecting me to feel you were talking about "uneducated moochers" as non-white. Hey, maybe I was jumping to conclusions, and it's clear I might have, but I've taken more than a punch in the face for not only respecting but defending the rights of Natives, alright? So don't come to me with that bullshit. Even if you were not referring to Native Americans as uneducated moochers, which I hope to God you weren't, I don't understand how you can claim that I'm a racist and you're not by singling out that somehow it is only *white people* that need to feel guilty to give away their wealth. Don't blacks, hispanics, asians, purple people also pay taxes? I'm sorry if I misrepresented you, but your statement really sounded racist to me. I apologize if you yourself don't feel you're a racist, but it strikes me as odd that, after focusing on Native Americans, you'd have to single out that *white people* need to feel guilty about giving up their wealth to "uneducated moochers", whoever they are.


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## Wow (Jul 18, 2008)

Epsilon Delta said:


> Ok, so let's see...
> 
> I talk about several genocides that have happened around the world... then you say the natives killed natives... You focus exclusively on Native Americans in my posts, and then you say, in sarcasm that, "*white people * need to feel guilty so they give away their hard earned wealth to uneducated moochers". I'm going to need you to clarify how, exactly, you were referring to *white people* giving away their wealth and then not expecting me to feel you were talking about "uneducated moochers" as non-white. Hey, maybe I was jumping to conclusions, and it's clear I might have, but I've taken more than a punch in the face for not only respecting but defending the rights of Natives, alright? So don't come to me with that bullshit. Even if you were not referring to Native Americans as uneducated moochers, which I hope to God you weren't, I don't understand how you can claim that I'm a racist and you're not by singling out that somehow it is only *white people* that need to feel guilty to give away their wealth. Don't blacks, hispanics, asians, purple people also pay taxes? I'm sorry if I misrepresented you, but your statement really sounded racist to me. I apologize if you yourself don't feel you're a racist, but it strikes me as odd that, after focusing on Native Americans, you'd have to single out that *white people* need to feel guilty about giving up their wealth to "uneducated moochers", whoever they are.


I appreciate your honesty! 

The fact is, my Father's best friend was Choctaw. 
He thought all of this welfare and rights stuff was total garbage.
He said "Indians have the right to work their asses off, just like all Americans must do to survive"

Other than that, I have nothing to say about Indians.


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## Epsilon Delta (Jul 18, 2008)

Fair enough.


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## Wow (Jul 19, 2008)

Epsilon Delta said:


> Fair enough.


I face racism/discrimination almost daily.
It comes mainly from blacks, but Mexicans, women and Asians can get ignorant also.
It's easy to turn this racism into an embarrassment for them and/or a benefit for me.
It's so obvious, they try to use their racial hatred for financial gain, which is illegal and what so called "minorities" have accused us crackers of doing to them.
Some have been prosecuted for fraud and they still maintain this bigotry as they are being carted off to jail. lol
These politicians and civil rights leaders are exploiting their followers for $$$$$$.


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## Epsilon Delta (Jul 21, 2008)

Wow said:


> I face racism/discrimination almost daily.
> It comes mainly from blacks, but Mexicans, women and Asians can get ignorant also.
> It's easy to turn this racism into an embarrassment for them and/or a benefit for me.
> It's so obvious, they try to use their racial hatred for financial gain, which is illegal and what so called "minorities" have accused us crackers of doing to them.
> ...



Ohkay.


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