# I think the Muslim religion sucks, but this...



## Ravi (Jun 24, 2008)

is getting a little bit stupid.

As Senator Barack Obama courted voters in Iowa last December, Representative Keith Ellison, the countrys first Muslim congressman, stepped forward eagerly to help.


  Barack Obama, on the altar at Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta, has appeared in synagogues this campaign but no mosques.





  Mr. Ellison believed that Mr. Obamas message of unity resonated deeply with American Muslims. He volunteered to speak on Mr. Obamas behalf at a mosque in Cedar Rapids, one of the nations oldest Muslim enclaves. But before the rally could take place, aides to Mr. Obama asked Mr. Ellison to cancel the trip because it might stir controversy. Another aide appeared at Mr. Ellisons Washington office to explain.


I will never forget the quote, Mr. Ellison said, leaning forward in his chair as he recalled the aides words. He said, We have a very tightly wrapped message. 



http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/24/u...2800&en=2188136bb97e5775&ei=5087
&oref=slogin


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## Anguille (Jun 24, 2008)

Ravi said:


> is getting a little bit stupid.
> 
> As Senator Barack Obama courted voters in Iowa last December, Representative Keith Ellison, the countrys first Muslim congressman, stepped forward eagerly to help.
> 
> ...



Obama is letting himself be defined by his enemies when he does stupid stuff like this.


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## doeton (Jun 24, 2008)

as if the thread title doesn't belay the reason for why obama has to sink to doing crap like this.



something sure is a little stupid.


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## manifold (Jun 24, 2008)

Love the new avatar doe eyes!  But I hope you go back to Tom Baker once the election is over.


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## editec (Jun 24, 2008)

If enough Americans are stupid enough to be convinced that Obama is a Moslem, then he's in trouble.

OTOH, if enough Americans are that stupid to allow themselves to be manipulated by the Republican dirty tricks teams, then this nation is in serious trouble anyway.


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## Ravi (Jun 24, 2008)

editec said:


> If enough Americans are stupid enough to be convinced that Obama is a Moslem, then he's in trouble.
> 
> OTOH, if enough Americans are that stupid to allow themselves to be manipulated by the Republican dirty tricks teams, then this nation is in serious trouble anyway.



I find it sad that he uses religion like this. People that already think he's a muslim aren't going to change their minds, so what's the point?


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## Ravi (Jun 24, 2008)

doeton said:


> as if the thread title doesn't belay the reason for why obama has to sink to doing crap like this.
> 
> 
> 
> something sure is a little stupid.



You LIKE the muslim religion? Why? As far as I can tell they preach for the destruction of the west and treat women worse than rats. Maybe if they'd throw out the Koran, denounce the serial child abuser Mobombed and get back to their roots...I dunno...I don't see much to like.


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## Annie (Jun 24, 2008)

editec said:


> If enough Americans are stupid enough to be convinced that Obama is a Moslem, then he's in trouble.
> 
> OTOH, if enough Americans are that stupid to allow themselves to be manipulated by the Republican dirty tricks teams, then this nation is in serious trouble anyway.



How was any of what was related in this NY Times article, Republican dirty tricks? Get a life.


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## editec (Jun 24, 2008)

It is related in that Obama refused to seat those scarf wearing Moslems precisely because the Republican mudslinging squads are attempting to portray him as a closet Moslem.

I would have made myself more clear on that point, but I mistakenly assumed that everyone here was intelligent enough to connect those obvious dots, dear.

I have a life, thank you very much. 

What's more I apparently also have a brain to make my life somewhat more understandable than you do.

Not you fault, of course.

I'm sure god must have gifted you with some other quality to make up for your other shortcomings.

Can you cook?


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## Ravi (Jun 24, 2008)

editec said:


> It is related in that Obama refused to seat those scarf wearing Moslems precisely because the Republican mudslinging squads are attempting to portray him as a closet Moslem.
> 
> I would have made myself more clear on that point, but I mistakenly assumed that everyone here was intelligent enough to connect those obvious dots, dear.
> 
> ...



Nothing like an elitist Progressive to set the record straight, eh? You are saying that Obama is a coward. Brilliant.


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## Annie (Jun 24, 2008)

editec said:


> It is related in that Obama refused to seat those scarf wearing Moslems precisely because the Republican mudslinging squads are attempting to portray him as a closet Moslem.
> 
> I would have made myself more clear on that point, but I mistakenly assumed that everyone here was intelligent enough to connect those obvious dots, dear.
> 
> ...



Yes, I can cook and have a degree in sociology from University of Chicago. I have a couple others, end of discussion on intelligence. 

So, Obama is reacting to the Republican jerks on his chain? By dissing those that would support him? Perhaps one would do better to question this law review Harvard grad?


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## Ravi (Jun 24, 2008)

Kathianne said:


> Yes, I can cook and have a degree in sociology from University of Chicago. I have a couple others, end of discussion on intelligence.
> 
> So, Obama is reacting to the Republican jerks on his chain? By dissing those that would support him? Perhaps one would do better to question this law review Harvard grad?



Glad to hear it, K. Cooking is such a valuable skill for a female.


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## Annie (Jun 24, 2008)

Ravi said:


> Glad to hear it, K. Cooking is such a valuable skill for a female.



Funny, I thought you were a female. My mistake.


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## doeton (Jun 24, 2008)

Ravi said:


> You LIKE the muslim religion? Why? As far as I can tell they preach for the destruction of the west and treat women worse than rats. Maybe if they'd throw out the Koran, denounce the serial child abuser Mobombed and get back to their roots...I dunno...I don't see much to like.




good grief. most religions suck.  especially buddhism (course i only say that cause buddha would approve).

do you see the irony in griping bout the muslim religion in particular and then turning around and criticizing obama for being politically savvy enough to relize hello that the swift boaters would of course have a field day with it.

he's not running for martyr.  the idea is to get elected.

plus while yes, ravi there are those who have already decided that obama is satan...there are still others who haven't made up their mind or might be persuaded...right?


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## Ravi (Jun 24, 2008)

Kathianne said:


> Funny, I thought you were a female. My mistake.



I am. I found what Edi said an attempt to be belittling. Perhaps I was incorrect.


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## Ravi (Jun 24, 2008)

doeton said:


> good grief. most religions suck.  especially buddhism (course i only say that cause buddha would approve).
> 
> do you see the irony in griping bout the muslim religion in particular and then turning around and criticizing obama for being politically savvy enough to relize hello that the swift boaters would of course have a field day with it.
> 
> ...



Am I persuading you? I don't mean too, really.

IMO, even though most religions suck, you don't treat Americans badly or avoid them because they believe something you don't believe. It makes him look small and cowardly, frankly.


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## Annie (Jun 24, 2008)

Ravi said:


> I am. I found what Edi said an attempt to be belittling. Perhaps I was incorrect.



oh it certainly was an attempt to belittle. I answered. That you chose to pile on?


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## Ravi (Jun 24, 2008)

Kathianne said:


> oh it certainly was an attempt to belittle. I answered. That you chose to pile on?



I was being sarcastic. Sorry for the misunderstanding.


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## Annie (Jun 24, 2008)

Ravi said:


> I was being sarcastic. Sorry for the misunderstanding.


oh yeah, the  will do that.


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## Ravi (Jun 24, 2008)

Kathianne said:


> oh yeah, the  will do that.



Prolly. It was directed at the craziness of Editec.


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## Anguille (Jun 24, 2008)

Ravi said:


> You LIKE the muslim religion? Why? As far as I can tell they preach for the destruction of the west and treat women worse than rats. Maybe if they'd throw out the Koran, denounce the serial child abuser Mobombed and get back to their roots...I dunno...I don't see much to like.



How is Islam any worse than any other religion? They all suck if you want to judge them by what the zealots preach.


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## Anguille (Jun 24, 2008)

Ravi said:


> Am I persuading you? I don't mean too, really.
> 
> IMO, even though most religions suck, you don't treat Americans badly or avoid them because they believe something you don't believe. It makes him look small and cowardly, frankly.


 
It certainly does make him look cowardly and like someone trying too hard to make the right impression.


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## Ravi (Jun 24, 2008)

Anguille said:


> How is Islam any worse than any other religion? They all suck if you want to judge them by what the zealots preach.



It's not just the zealots. Read the book, if you don't believe me. Or read _Infidel_.


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## Anguille (Jun 24, 2008)

Ravi said:


> It's not just the zealots. Read the book, if you don't believe me. Or read _Infidel_.



What book?


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## Ravi (Jun 24, 2008)

Anguille said:


> What book?



The Koran, or however you spell it.


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## Anguille (Jun 24, 2008)

Ravi said:


> The Koran, or however you spell it.



Is the Koran any different than the Bible in terms of being open to interpretation? 

Islam is like any religion, created by humans and used to promote good things and bad things.  Lots can be said about  how the treatment of women by the Catholic Church. The Pope doesn't even allow birth control or divorce. 

I'm familiar with Hirsi Ali's autobiography but why would you assume every Muslim's woman's upbringing in Somalia was like hers? Circumcision is not an Islamic rite the way it is in the Jewish religion. It has been done in Africa since long before Islam and is done by Christians too. An Ethiopian Christian I worked told me his female relatives were all circumcised. My French and Persian Muslim female friends are not circumcised. 

I think Ali Hirsi is an amazing woman to reject and speak out against fundamentalism and the religion she was raised in but it's too bad that women of other religions who do the same don't get as much attention.


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## Ravi (Jun 24, 2008)

Anguille said:


> Is the Koran any different than the Bible in terms of being open to interpretation?
> 
> Islam is like any religion, created by humans and used to promote good things and bad things.  Lots can be said about  how the treatment of women by the Catholic Church. The Pope doesn't even allow birth control or divorce.
> 
> ...



Did you read the book? The Somalians are much easier on women than the Arabs are, and according to her, the attitude toward the west and women isn't a fundamentalist attitude, it's just the way Muslims are. Sure, the bible and most Christian religions are to be faulted, but nothing that I've seen compares to convincing women if they don't cover from head to toe and the slightest bit of skin shows the entire society will fall apart from men crazed with lust. And it will be the women's fault. Women lighting themselves on fire for becoming pregnant out of wedlock is common, and if they didn't their male relatives would kill them anyway. And don't get me started on how the Taliban treated women...there is no excusing any of it.


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## Ravi (Jun 24, 2008)

Um, and comparing Catholics to Muslims is like comparing golden retrievers to pit bulls. The Pope doesn't allow...but we aren't ruled by the Pope, and in Muslim countries most of them are ruled by Islamic law. The koran accepts no government that isn't ruled by their God. Pissing on Catholics to distract from Islamic atrocities...priceless.


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## Anguille (Jun 24, 2008)

Ravi said:


> Did you read the book? The Somalians are much easier on women than the Arabs are, and according to her, the attitude toward the west and women isn't a fundamentalist attitude, it's just the way Muslims are. Sure, the bible and most Christian religions are to be faulted, but nothing that I've seen compares to convincing women if they don't cover from head to toe and the slightest bit of skin shows the entire society will fall apart from men crazed with lust. And it will be the women's fault. Women lighting themselves on fire for becoming pregnant out of wedlock is common, and if they didn't their male relatives would kill them anyway. And don't get me started on how the Taliban treated women...there is no excusing any of it.



Ali is, or was, a politician not a theologian and by the way, she became an atheist and rejected all religions. If the Koran requires that women cover their heads why don't Muslim women in the Balkans, in Turkey cover their heads? What is this about it being *common *among Muslim women to light themselves on fire for becoming pregnant out of wedlock? Is it more common than Hindu's setting fire to wives who don't bring a satisfactory dowry? Is the Taliban  worse to women than the Fundamentalist Mormons and are either truly representative of the larger religions they are assciated with? 

It makes no more sense to say Muslims have a certain attitude toward the west than it does for Obama to avoid American Muslims.

It seems to me religions are created for basically the same reasons, to fulfill the same needs in societies and human society being pretty much the same the world over why would one religion be any different from the others. 

Methinks the scapegoating of Muslims is much like the scapegoating of pit pulls.


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## Anguille (Jun 24, 2008)

Ravi said:


> Um, and comparing Catholics to Muslims is like comparing golden retrievers to pit bulls. The Pope doesn't allow...but we aren't ruled by the Pope, and in Muslim countries most of them are ruled by Islamic law. The koran accepts no government that isn't ruled by their God. Pissing on Catholics to distract from Islamic atrocities...priceless.



LOL
 Pit bulls

I had not read this post before I posted the one above.


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## Jeepers (Jun 24, 2008)

Ravi said:


> You LIKE the muslim religion? Why? As far as I can tell they preach for the destruction of the west and treat women worse than rats. Maybe if they'd throw out the Koran, denounce the serial child abuser Mobombed and get back to their roots...I dunno...I don't see much to like.


Jesus christ there are some idiots here....


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## Ravi (Jun 24, 2008)

Anguille said:


> Ali is, or was, a politician not a theologian and by the way, she became an atheist and rejected all religions. If the Koran requires that women cover their heads why don't Muslim women in the Balkans, in Turkey cover their heads? What is this about it being *common *among Muslim women to light themselves on fire for becoming pregnant out of wedlock? Is it more common than Hindu's setting fire to wives who don't bring a satisfactory dowry? Is the Taliban  worse to women than the Fundamentalist Mormons and are either truly representative of the larger religions they are assciated with?
> 
> It makes no more sense to say Muslims have a certain attitude toward the west than it does for Obama to avoid American Muslims.
> 
> ...



That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion. It is more common for women to be treated badly under Muslim law than any other religion. Just because other religions can treat women badly does not excuse the Muslims, as you seem to think it does. It's kind of amusing to see you bending over backwards to excuse a religion, seriously. I think this is a common failing amongst progressives...finding a pet religion and putting its right to exist over the right to exist of its victims.

So, did you actually read the book? If not, you ought to, I think you've missed her point by a mile.


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## Ravi (Jun 24, 2008)

Jeepers said:


> Jesus christ there are some idiots here....



Be my guest, Jeepers. Make your case to defend the religion.


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## Gunny (Jun 24, 2008)

editec said:


> If enough Americans are stupid enough to be convinced that Obama is a Moslem, then he's in trouble.
> 
> OTOH, if enough Americans are that stupid to allow themselves to be manipulated by the Republican dirty tricks teams, then this nation is in serious trouble anyway.




OTOH, if Americans are stupid enough to sell what the Barrack is cooking, then this nation is in equally serious trouble.


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## Gunny (Jun 24, 2008)

editec said:


> It is related in that Obama refused to seat those scarf wearing Moslems precisely because the Republican mudslinging squads are attempting to portray him as a closet Moslem.
> 
> I would have made myself more clear on that point, but I mistakenly assumed that everyone here was intelligent enough to connect those obvious dots, dear.
> 
> ...



It isn't related in that I don't see any GOP anything saying shit.  People with the same mentality who refuse to question anything about Obama and toss out the "swift-boating" crap (not directed at you) try to present Obama as a Muslim.  

Why is it both sides have to present the fringe idiots on the other as the mainstream?  Why is it the fringe idiots on both sides are the only ones that get media coverage?  And why are THEY the ones everyone wants to believe?  

So we can spend our time arguing about shit that not only isn't true, but doesn't matter, but keeps us hating each other.  Heaven forbid we discuss a relevant issue that matters.


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## Anguille (Jun 24, 2008)

Ravi said:


> That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion. It is more common for women to be treated badly under Muslim law than any other religion. Just because other religions can treat women badly does not excuse the Muslims, as you seem to think it does. It's kind of amusing to see you bending over backwards to excuse a religion, seriously. I think this is a common failing amongst progressives...finding a pet religion and putting its right to exist over the right to exist of its victims.
> 
> So, did you actually read the book? If not, you ought to, I think you've missed her point by a mile.



If anyone has a pet religion, it's you. I'm not excusing any of them, I think they all suck equally and they all also have things that are good about them. Seeing as I think most humans are good, I think their religions, all of them, were intended for good and do accomplish some good though not enough to convince me they are worthwhile having.
You may think that the Koran advocates worse things than the Bible, (even though the Bible is in the Koran) and that all Muslims obey Sharia law ( if that were true, most of my Muslim friends would be in big trouble) but I think it's just your misplaced anger at the Catholic Church that makes you revile Islam. I wasn't even raised a Christian but as an American, Christianity has had a worse affect on my life than Islam. I'd venture to say it's the same for you.   

No, I have not read her entire book but why would reading her book change my mind on whether I think one person's experience of Islam in Somalia makes them the expert on interpreting the Koran? Her father was a Muslim, a communist and opposed to female circumcision and he read the Koran too.


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## Anguille (Jun 24, 2008)

GunnyL said:


> OTOH, if Americans are stupid enough to sell what the Barrack is cooking, then this nation is in equally serious trouble.



I'll take what Obama is cooking over what McCain's has in the oven.


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## Gunny (Jun 24, 2008)

Anguille said:


> I'll take what Obama is cooking over what McCain's has in the oven.



Feel free.


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## Anguille (Jun 24, 2008)

Ravi said:


> Am I persuading you? I don't mean too, really.
> 
> IMO, even though most religions suck, you don't treat Americans badly or avoid them because they believe something you don't believe. It makes him look small and cowardly, frankly.



Wait, how could Muslims be true Americans if, as you say, they all obey Sharia law and think the Koran is telling them government must be subject to Allah?

What religions, in your opinion, do not suck?


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## Anguille (Jun 24, 2008)

GunnyL said:


> Feel free.



Thanks, I think I will. He's going to win, you know. Even people who don't particularly like him will vote for him because they can't stomach McCain's junk food.


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## Gunny (Jun 24, 2008)

Anguille said:


> Thanks, I think I will. He's going to win, you know. Even people who don't particularly like him will vote for him because they can't stomach McCain's junk food.



He might.  We'll see.  Doesn't really matter.  I won't vote for him.  There are plenty who won't because they can't stomach the pure crap Obama's selling.  

Just a matter of where you're POV comes from.


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## doeton (Jun 24, 2008)

Ravi said:


> IMO, even though most religions suck, you don't treat Americans badly or avoid them because they believe something you don't believe. It makes him look small and cowardly, frankly.



In point of fact, you are off base in your suggestion here.

  Obama isn't avoiding muslims because he suffers from your diseased view of their religion.  He's avoiding them because PEOPLE LIKE YOU ARE SUSCEPTIBLE TO SUCH A BELIEF. 

Now does that cheapen his whole hope unity them? Yeah it sure does. (gunnyl did a obama supporter just show they aren't wearing cult googles?) 

but realistically such prejudices are overcome with baby steps, and i'm willing to accept a realistic practical politician with democratic ideals over a principled but unelected martyr...


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## Ravi (Jun 25, 2008)

Anguille said:


> If anyone has a pet religion, it's you. I'm not excusing any of them, I think they all suck equally and they all also have things that are good about them. Seeing as I think most humans are good, I think their religions, all of them, were intended for good and do accomplish some good though not enough to convince me they are worthwhile having.
> You may think that the Koran advocates worse things than the Bible, (even though the Bible is in the Koran) and that all Muslims obey Sharia law ( if that were true, most of my Muslim friends would be in big trouble) but I think it's just your misplaced anger at the Catholic Church that makes you revile Islam. I wasn't even raised a Christian but as an American, Christianity has had a worse affect on my life than Islam. I'd venture to say it's the same for you.
> 
> No, I have not read her entire book but why would reading her book change my mind on whether I think one person's experience of Islam in Somalia makes them the expert on interpreting the Koran? Her father was a Muslim, a communist and opposed to female circumcision and he read the Koran too.



I have no misplaced anger at the Catholic church. But thanks for projecting. One of the interesting things about Islam is that if you renounce it to become an atheist, in the eyes of Islam you are to be killed. I can't think of any Christian religion that advocates that. 

This woman was from Somalia but she also lived in several other Arab countries and even in Holland the muslim women aren't free to do as they please...own property, wear what they wish, etc. (unless they basically renounce their religion and/or their families). Even here at the local muslim school the girls are segregated and taught to be subservient. Sweet.


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## Ravi (Jun 25, 2008)

doeton said:


> In point of fact, you are off base in your suggestion here.
> 
> Obama isn't avoiding muslims because he suffers from your diseased view of their religion.  He's avoiding them because PEOPLE LIKE YOU ARE SUSCEPTIBLE TO SUCH A BELIEF.
> 
> ...



So he's a racist or a coward? Is that what you mean?

How exactly is my view diseased, btw.


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## editec (Jun 25, 2008)

Kathianne said:


> Yes, I can cook and have a degree in sociology from University of Chicago. I have a couple others, end of discussion on intelligence.


 
An hopefully an end to your feelings of inadaquacy that prompted you to gratuitously insult me for having the audacity to respond in a way you disapproved of too, right?




> So, Obama is reacting to the Republican jerks on his chain? By dissing those that would support him? Perhaps one would do better to question this law review Harvard grad?


 
Yes, that is exactly what he is doing.

He is playing a defensive game on the Moslim front.

If you were his handler how would you have handled that event?


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## editec (Jun 25, 2008)

Anguille said:


> Thanks, I think I will. He's going to win, you know. Even people who don't particularly like him will vote for him because they can't stomach McCain's junk food.


 

That's the main reason I'm planning on voting for him.

he's not my great White Hope, either but he'll have to do until something better comes along.


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## Anguille (Jun 25, 2008)

Ravi said:


> I have no misplaced anger at the Catholic church. But thanks for projecting. One of the interesting things about Islam is that if you renounce it to become an atheist, in the eyes of Islam you are to be killed. I can't think of any Christian religion that advocates that.
> 
> This woman was from Somalia but she also lived in several other Arab countries and even in Holland the muslim women aren't free to do as they please...own property, wear what they wish, etc. (unless they basically renounce their religion and/or their families). Even here at the local muslim school the girls are segregated and taught to be subservient. Sweet.



I knew that bit about misplaced anger would annoy you. 
I tossed it in as a back at ya for trying to incite me by claiming I bend over backwards to defend the Muslim religion saying I piss "on Catholics to distract from Islamic atrocities". I'm not trying to distract from anything, I'm pointing out that you have a biased view of Islam. 

Hirsi Ali says Islam advocates killing apostates. Other Muslims will disagree with her. In any case there are plenty of ex Muslims still walking around. At one time Christians burned heretics and witches. Maybe the Bible told them to do that, maybe not. You are really trying to make Islam out to be a political movement as if every Muslim was a terrorist at heart.

Doeton brought up an interesting point when she questioned why you denigrate Muslims in one breath and deride Obama for not wanting to associate with them in another. 

Muslim women are free to own property in The Netherlands and wear what they wish and they do. Nothing in Dutch law prevents them from doing so. Muslim teenage girls dress  like Britney Spears and the only way you know they are a "muslima" as they are called is because of the tiny thong shaped kerchief they wear on their heads but that isn't even a good indicator of religion because it's also a fashion among non Muslim Dutch girls and not all Muslim girls wear it. The state sponsored religious schools are an extemely bad idea in my view. I was surprised when I learned about the system there especially when I heard that even nonMuslim  female teachers in the Muslim schools are required to wear head scarves. That is Dutch tolerance gone cuckoo.


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## Ravi (Jun 25, 2008)

Anguille said:


> I knew that bit about misplaced anger would annoy you.
> I tossed it in as a back at ya for trying to incite me by claiming I bend over backwards to defend the Muslim religion saying I piss "on Catholics to distract from Islamic atrocities". I'm not trying to distract from anything, I'm pointing out that you have a biased view of Islam.
> 
> Hirsi Ali says Islam advocates killing apostates. Other Muslims will disagree with her. In any case there are plenty of ex Muslims still walking around. At one time Christians burned heretics and witches. Maybe the Bible told them to do that, maybe not. You are really trying to make Islam out to be a political movement as if every Muslim was a terrorist at heart.
> ...



I don't think all Muslims are terrorists. I disliked the religion long before 9/11, back when the Taliban started denying women medical care. 

You are correct, nothing in Dutch law prevents them. What prevents them is the brainwashing they receive to be submissive and subservient to the males in their families. 

As for Doeton's point (is she a she?) I dislike most religions but at the same time I realize that people have the right to believe what they want to believe. Obama acting that way toward any group of Americans, even evangelicals, is wrong. They are Americans, and until they start acting on their beliefs, they are not to be dissed. IMNSHO. Not to mention it makes him look cowardly.

My bias is based on reality, while yours, no offense, is a mystery. I always find it funny when atheists revile all things Christian yet twist and turn to excuse Muslims.


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## Anguille (Jun 25, 2008)

doeton said:


> Now does that cheapen his whole hope unity them? Yeah it sure does. (gunnyl did a obama supporter just show they aren't wearing cult googles?)



I'm glad to hear an Obama supporter say that because sometimes you guys scare me with your hero worship.  Much as my opinion of him is lowered every time he shows himself to be  a hypocrite over religious matters, there are  other good reasons for voting for him and I doubt other people like me will decide not to vote for him because of this. So I suppose he is doing the politically savvy thing in choosing not to be associated with anything remotely connected to terrorism or  Louis Farrakan. I want him to be elected so I'll stomach it, but I doubt I'll contribute anything more than my vote.


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## Jeepers (Jun 25, 2008)

> Originally Posted by Ravi
> You LIKE the muslim religion? Why? As far as I can tell they preach for the destruction of the west and treat women worse than rats. Maybe if they'd throw out the Koran, denounce the serial child abuser Mobombed and get back to their roots...I dunno...I don't see much to like.





Jeepers said:


> Jesus christ there are some idiots here....





Ravi said:


> Be my guest, Jeepers. Make your case to defend the religion.



Seriously.. would you go to a party step on on a  chair and repeat that same comment. You would in a sense be telling everyone that you are an ignorant asshole. Its much easier to hide on a message board and make your stupid comments isnt it... 

I will not defend muslims any more than I would defend christians... There is no god and no little fairy tale that you people use to make it through the day. There is only humanity and human ingenuity... I will say though that the amount of devotion that muslims give their religion makes christians look like clowns.... this is taking into account their poplulations as a whole and not just the fringe elements that you base your opinions on... 

I'd personally be embarrassed if I were you ravi...


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## Anguille (Jun 25, 2008)

Ravi said:


> I don't think all Muslims are terrorists. I disliked the religion long before 9/11, back when the Taliban started denying women medical care.
> 
> You are correct, nothing in Dutch law prevents them. What prevents them is the brainwashing they receive to be submissive and subservient to the males in their families.
> 
> ...


 Once again I do not excuse Muslims. That is your perception. It's like my opinion on gay marriage. I don't think gays or ANYONE should be allowed to marry. Everyone should be treated as an individual in the eyes of the law. But is civil marriage ever likely to be abolished in the US? So, I have to go with saying that if you are going to have the institution of marriage it must not be discriminatory. Same with religions, I wish they would all disappear, but they aren't likely to, at least not in my lifetime so I have to accept them all equally.
Muslims are the underdogs in this country. If I stick up for them it's because they are underdogs not because I think their religion is any less stupid than another. I also don't get why religious people are often so antagonistic towards each other when all religions seem to promote the same thing.


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## Ravi (Jun 25, 2008)

Jeepers said:


> Seriously.. would you go to a party step on on a  chair and repeat that same comment. You would in a sense be telling everyone that you are an ignorant asshole. Its much easier to hide on a message board and make your stupid comments isnt it...
> 
> I will not defend muslims any more than I would defend christians... There is no god and no little fairy tale that you people use to make it through the day. There is only humanity and human ingenuity... I will say though that the amount of devotion that muslims give their religion makes christians look like clowns.... this is taking into account their poplulations as a whole and not just the fringe elements that you base your opinions on...
> 
> I'd personally be embarrassed if I were you ravi...



I guess it's a good thing you aren't me. I asked you a simple question and you can't answer it. And, no, I have no problem saying such things in public. Any religion that treats women in the manner Muslim treats women owes me an explanation, not the reverse.

btw, I don't believe in fairy tales and I'm 99.9% convinced there is no God. So take your high horse and shove it.


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## Anguille (Jun 25, 2008)

Ravi said:


> I guess it's a good thing you aren't me. I asked you a simple question and you can't answer it. And, no, I have no problem saying such things in public. Any religion that treats women in the manner Muslim treats women owes me an explanation, not the reverse.
> 
> btw, I don't believe in fairy tales and I'm 99.9% convinced there is no God. So take your high horse and shove it.



Face it, Rav, when it comes to dogs, religions or whether restaurant employees should be exposed to second hand smoke, you are an ...










 ...elitist!


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## editec (Jun 25, 2008)

Ravi said:


> I guess it's a good thing you aren't me. I asked you a simple question and you can't answer it. And, no, I have no problem saying such things in public. Any religion that treats women in the manner Muslim treats women owes me an explanation, not the reverse.
> 
> btw, I don't believe in fairy tales and I'm 99.9% convinced there is no God. So take your high horse and shove it.


 
Owes _you_ an explanation? 

_Owes _you!?  

Please explain.


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## Ravi (Jun 25, 2008)

editec said:


> Owes _you_ an explanation?
> 
> _Owes _you!?
> 
> Please explain.



I thought I was pretty clear. What part don't you understand?


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## Ravi (Jun 25, 2008)

Anguille said:


> Face it, Rav, when it comes to dogs, religions or whether restaurant employees should be exposed to second hand smoke, you are an ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ha, I see it the other way. Your propensity to make some people more equal than others is Progressive. That's elitist.


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## busara (Jun 25, 2008)

i wonder how many people here have ever met and talked with muslim people.


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## nomdeplume (Jun 25, 2008)

I thought the title of this thread sucked, but then I read the OP's post and figured a sucky title was rather apropos.


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## Ravi (Jun 25, 2008)

busara said:


> i wonder how many people here have ever met and talked with muslim people.



I have in the UK. Mostly the women, I find them fascinating for some reason with their black robes. I always expect them to be more exotic than they are but they end up reminding me of evangelical girls I used to argue religion with, kind of drony and pathetic.


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## AllieBaba (Jun 25, 2008)

Anguille said:


> Wait, how could Muslims be true Americans if, as you say, they all obey Sharia law and think the Koran is telling them government must be subject to Allah?



They can't, because the teachings of the Koran are in direct conflict with our laws, and freedom, period.


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## Anguille (Jun 25, 2008)

busara said:


> i wonder how many people here have ever met and talked with muslim people.



I have 3 long time friends who are Muslim and years ago spent a lot of time with a group that included mostly Iranian immigrants.  Religion was not our main topic of conversation but I recall of the two I was closest to, one said he was an avowed atheist and the other said she was agnostic but at the time was intrigued by Sufism and Sufi poetry.  My Moroccan friend and French friend, a Muslim couple who are now American citizens, are major Obama supporters, but I haven't spoken to them since this incident. I'll be curious to hear their reaction.


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## Anguille (Jun 25, 2008)

AllieBaba said:


> They can't, because the teachings of the Koran are in direct conflict with our laws, and freedom, period.



I have Bible question for you, Allie, in a novel I'm reading there is this quote from the Bible. Only, since the novel is written by a humorist and everything is very tongue in cheek, I don't know it it's a made up quote or not. 
Here it is : " Deuterontomy 22:5 The woman shall not wear that which pertained unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are an abomination unto the Lord thy god".

If that is really from the Bible, does that mean that Hillary Clinton is an Obamination in a pantsuit? How about when Guilliani dressed in drag?


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## AllieBaba (Jun 25, 2008)

Both are pretty bad.

Yes, it's in the Bible.
What is the meaning of Deuteronomy 22:5?
Question: What is the meaning of Deuteronomy 22: 5?

    Answer: The verse in question reads as follows: "The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God."

    Scholars are not entirely sure as to the exact original application of the prohibition. Some of the uncertainty is due to the very similar way in which the male and female Jew dressed. However, there was still an effort to be made to maintain masculinity and femininity. The intermingling of genders was and is a matter of confusion that God forbids.

    One scholar's comments. Commentator Matthew Henry makes some worth while comments on Deuteronomy 22: 5. He wrote thus: "&#8230;Some think it refers to the idolatrous custom of the Gentiles: in the worship of Venus, women appeared in armour, and men in women's cloths; this, as other superstitious usages, is here said to be an abomination to the Lord&#8230;.It forbids the confounding of the dispositions and affairs of the sexes: men must not be effeminate&#8230;." (Complete Commentary on the Bible).

    I do not know of any inherent, contextual, or remote contextual restriction placed on the general teaching of Deuteronomy 22: 5. The same principle is seen in the New Testament. Paul wrote: "Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?" (I Cor. 11: 14). Clear distinction is made between the domestic roles of men and women (cp. Eph. 5: 22 ff.). Sharp differentiation is also seen between the function of men and women in religious matters. For instance, men are to be the leaders in the public worship of God (I Tim. 2: 8-15). Also, men are to be the elders and preachers among God's people (I Tim. 3: 1-7; Tit. 1: 5-11, I Tim. 2: 12-15). The movement, then, to make a gender free society is in opposition to the plain teaching of God's word.


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## busara (Jun 25, 2008)

Anguille said:


> I have Bible question for you, Allie, in a novel I'm reading there is this quote from the Bible. Only, since the novel is written by a humorist and everything is very tongue in cheek, I don't know it it's a made up quote or not.
> Here it is : " Deuterontomy 22:5 The woman shall not wear that which pertained unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are an abomination unto the Lord thy god".
> 
> If that is really from the Bible, does that mean that Hillary Clinton is an Obamination in a pantsuit? How about when Guilliani dressed in drag?



(not allie, but i have an answer). studied several verses such as these a few years ago for a report. the intent of the verse is to prevent gender associations from being used for the purpose of deceiving others, leading to sexual immorality. in other words, you cant change your dress or hair to look like a member of the opposite sex when purposeful deception is involved, usually resulting in sexual immorality. 

an example would be a guy dressing up as a woman to sneak into the womans locker room. he is doing it with an intent to deceive others for his sexual gain. hillary wearing a pantsuit is not wrong, nor would a man dressing up as a woman in a shakespeare play be considered a sin.

some people disagree with this translation, but i believe it is the most accepted one amongst OT scholars.


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## AllieBaba (Jun 25, 2008)

Yup.


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## Ravi (Jun 25, 2008)

AllieBaba said:


> They can't, because the teachings of the Koran are in direct conflict with our laws, and freedom, period.



Not quite. People are free to believe what they wish but they aren't always allowed to act on their beliefs.


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## Anguille (Jun 25, 2008)

AllieBaba said:


> Both are pretty bad.
> 
> Yes, it's in the Bible.
> What is the meaning of Deuteronomy 22:5?
> ...



Thanks for checking on that for me.
With so many different scholarly opinions on the meaning of this quote doesn't that give you the impression that the Koran (which contains the Bible within it) might be just as 
open to interpretation? Including that part you say exists where it says Muslims can't be Americans? 

Do you wear jodhpurs or chaps when you ride? Does that make you bad?


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## Ravi (Jun 25, 2008)

Anguille said:


> Thanks for checking on that for me.
> With so many different scholarly opinions on the meaning of this quote doesn't that give you the impression that the Koran (which contains the Bible within it) might be just as
> open to interpretation? Including that part you say exists where it says Muslims can't be Americans?
> 
> Do you wear jodhpurs or chaps when you ride? Does that make you bad?



What are you smoking? The Koran does not contain the Bible within it.


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## Anguille (Jun 25, 2008)

Ravi said:


> What are you smoking? The Koran does not contain the Bible within it.



It contains parts of the Bible.


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## Ravi (Jun 25, 2008)

Anguille said:


> It contains parts of the Bible.


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## Anguille (Jun 25, 2008)

Ravi said:


>



I believe it contains a version of the Old Testament  But I might be confusing it with The Book of Mormon. Seeing as I have read none of the three books I shouldn't have made that statement without doing some research. In any case, it doesn't make any difference if the issue is ambiguities in both the Bible and the Koran. Anyone can read what they want in both books and they do. Jihad, for instance, I've heard lots of talk about what it is, ranging from war on non believers to an inner struggle within oneself to serve God, and etc and etc.


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## Ravi (Jun 25, 2008)

Anguille said:


> I believe it contains a version of the Old Testament  But I might be confusing it with The Book of Mormon. Seeing as I have read none of the three books I shouldn't have made that statement without doing some research. In any case, it doesn't make any difference if the issue is ambiguities in both the Bible and the Koran. Anyone can read what they want in both books and they do. Jihad, for instance, I've heard lots of talk about what it is, ranging from war on non believers to an inner struggle within oneself to serve God, and etc and etc.





FOS Alert!


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## Anguille (Jun 25, 2008)

Ravi said:


> FOS Alert!



Explain rather than flame, if you please.


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## Anguille (Jun 25, 2008)

Ravi said:


> FOS Alert!



Have_ you_ read the Koran?


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## Ravi (Jun 25, 2008)

If you are that unsure of what is in the Bible and the Koran, how is it that you come to have such strong opinions on either one's meaning? Surely your Muslim friends could clue you in at the very least.


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## Ravi (Jun 25, 2008)

Anguille said:


> Have_ you_ read the Koran?



A translation of it.


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## Anguille (Jun 25, 2008)

Ravi said:


> FOS Alert!



Here you go, something from a Catholic priest and the Global Catholic Network. I offer it presuming that is the religion you think does not suck, though you never actually answered my question about what were the religions you don't think suck.

A Look Inside the Koran and the Bible

"*A Look Inside the Koran and the Bible

PART 1

Father Sidney Griffith Compares and Contrasts the Texts

WASHINGTON, D.C., 26 JULY 2004 (ZENIT)

Muslims think of the Koran as presenting in Arabic the same message that God had previously sent down earlier in the Torah, at the hands of Moses, and in the Gospel, at the hands of Jesus.

So says Father Sidney Griffith, a professor of Semitic and Egyptian languages and literature at the Catholic University of America.

Father Griffith shared with ZENIT how Christians can better understand the Koran and how its teachings on Christ and Revelation differ from those found among Christians.

Part 2 of this interview will appear Tuesday.

Q: What exactly is the Koran? How was it written?


....*"


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## Anguille (Jun 25, 2008)

Ravi said:


> A translation of it.



FOS alert!


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## Anguille (Jun 25, 2008)

Ravi said:


> A translation of it.



Translated?  by whom?


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## manifold (Jun 25, 2008)




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## Anguille (Jun 25, 2008)

manifold said:


>



Don't get all excited.


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## manifold (Jun 25, 2008)

*<edited for decency>


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## Ravi (Jun 25, 2008)

Anguille said:


> Translated?  by whom?



No idea. I don't read Arabic.


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## Ravi (Jun 25, 2008)

manifold said:


> *<edited for decency>



Since when have you had any?


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## Anguille (Jun 25, 2008)

manifold said:


> *<edited for decency>



I saw that.

Tissue?


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## Ravi (Jun 25, 2008)

btw, the book of Mormon doesn't contain the bible within it either.


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## manifold (Jun 25, 2008)

Ravi said:


> btw, the book of Mormon doesn't contain the bible within it either.



Correct.  According to Morons, it's the third testament of the Bible.


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## AllieBaba (Jun 25, 2008)

However, since it's not the word of God, it doesn't fit.


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## GHook93 (Jun 25, 2008)

Ravi said:


> is getting a little bit stupid.
> 
> As Senator Barack Obama courted voters in Iowa last December, Representative Keith Ellison, the countrys first Muslim congressman, stepped forward eagerly to help.
> 
> ...



Ellison stated that he believe the 9/11 truther theories. Screw the guy!


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## busara (Jun 26, 2008)

manifold said:


> Correct.  According to *Morons*, it's the third testament of the Bible.



thats a little harsh, dont you think?


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## manifold (Jun 26, 2008)

busara said:


> thats a little harsh, dont you think?



typo.


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## Ravi (Jun 26, 2008)

manifold said:


> typo.


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## manifold (Jun 12, 2012)

Ravi said:


> I think this is a common failing amongst progressives...finding a pet religion and putting its right to exist over the right to exist of its victims.





Spot on Ravi, spot on.


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## Katzndogz (Jun 12, 2012)

The translation of my koran is from the King Fahd Complex for the printing of the holy koran under the supervision of the ministry of islamic affairs.


I would not trust any other translation to be accurate.


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## Ravi (Jun 12, 2012)

I miss Eel.


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## beagle9 (Jun 12, 2012)

Anguille said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > is getting a little bit stupid.
> ...


Who are Obama's enemies in which he is being defined by ? Do Tell..... Please


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## beagle9 (Jun 12, 2012)

Ravi said:


> editec said:
> 
> 
> > If enough Americans are stupid enough to be convinced that Obama is a Moslem, then he's in trouble.
> ...


Why sad, he is a politician isn't he ? Do you know any politician who doesn't do these sorts of things ? Why do people think that Obama is any different than any other politician (what maybe because he is black ?), where as do blacks expect him to walk a tight rope of perfectness and righteousness upon their behalfs, and this all because of this factor within him maybe ? Hmmm I know, maybe he is being bad when he gravitates towards his white side, and he corrects himself when gravitates back to his black side, is that it ? LOL

Everytime Bill Clinton got into trouble, and he had to hide from "the man", you could find him swaying back and forth in a black church, and surrounding himself with blackness, in hopes that "the man" couldn't get to him when he did this sort of thing.....(((LOL))) I have heard many blacks bring this point up about old Billyboy, and his ties to the black church in this way, where as they weren't fooled by it either, so talk about usery! There is no end to it with these politicians, whether it's Clinton or a Barack and etc. they all will do what they think they have to in order to get that big ole prize at the end (another 4 years) or (no impeachement while serving their 4 years)..LOL


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## manifold (Jun 4, 2014)

manifold said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > I think this is a common failing amongst progressives...finding a pet religion and putting its right to exist over the right to exist of its victims.
> ...



I bumped this four years later, and now after another two it seems worth repeating.


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## longknife (Jun 4, 2014)

I am awaiting moderator approval to post a thread *The Greatest Murder Machine in History*


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## holston (Jun 4, 2014)

The Chicago Jewish News: Obama and the Jews



> Since then, Mikva's support for and nurturance of the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee has never wavered. He is one of many influential Chicago Jews who have been among Obama's earliest and most ardent backers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Ravi (Jun 4, 2014)

manifold said:


> manifold said:
> 
> 
> > Ravi said:
> ...


i miss the eel. Why she couldn't admit many Muslims treat women like shit is a mystery. 

I miss you, too. Sad that you perverted yourself.


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## protectionist (Jul 17, 2014)

Anguille said:


> Ravi said:
> 
> 
> > You LIKE the muslim religion? Why? As far as I can tell they preach for the destruction of the west and treat women worse than rats. Maybe if they'd throw out the Koran, denounce the serial child abuser Mobombed and get back to their roots...I dunno...I don't see much to like.
> ...



To ask a question that stupid is to disqualify you from even being able to post in this forum.  You might as well have asked how poisonous rattlesnakes are worse than any other snake ?  Islam preaches genocide, wife-beating, a long list of things oppressive to women, pedophila, rape, slavery, torture, etc. Get a brain.

PS - Islam is not a religion.  It is a very immoral ideology POSING as a religion.


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